# Different viewpoints on job market



## Moimeme

Hi everyone, 

I would really appreciate your candid opinions on the following. My partner is Paulista. I am not. My partner is under 40. I am not. My partner is male. I am not. We have two children. 

I am currently working in Brazil in my field. I wanted to make a transition to another field. I have multiple (relevant) university degrees, speak and write Portuguese, have daycare in place. 

When I was first applying I was advised that I could likely secure full time work paying around 4K. I have spent months applying to EVERYTHING. I have interviewed...Nothing (including positions for which I am qualified, needing native English speakers, some related to the Olympics) and at salaries in the 2K range. 

I have read on this forum that being over forty, female, and a mother and trying to transition, will lock me out of the market. My partner says no way, he knows all kinds of women in my situation that are recent hires, they however are Brazilian.

What do you think about my chances of managing this transition. 

Candid advice is really welcome. Many thanks in anticipation.


----------



## AnthonyRMC

The fact is that there *IS* discrimination here in Brazil.
I am suffering it right now. 54, -26 years in country, naturalized Brazilian.
It doesn't matter.

Age is the main problem.
Souza Cruz (cigarettes) for example, will not hire new drivers over 30! 
Nationality and race shouldn't matter, but it does in some cases. Some Brazilians *ARE* racist and I have heard many admit it. - Sitting in a bar maybe, overhearing converstation.
Brazil is *NOT* the "Pais de Tudos" (country of everybody) that the government like to promote. 

Basically, for good jobs, one needs to be in it early.
Specialist positions are of course different, but often filled by a consultant.

I'm really sorry, but the only thing that I can really say, is to keep trying. As I am.


----------



## Moimeme

*have to agree*

Thank you very much for your prompt and direct reply. One of the issues I seem to face is that I am qualified for and asking for a job that pays more than 2K. It seems that this cutoff in salary is the main barrier in a few ways. First, I think that most positions are for junior professionals without graduate degrees but with 5 years of experience, and second most advertised positions are bargain hunting and are planning to pay very low salaries, despite having good benefits. They want young people to pay lower wages and to shape. Also, the Brazilian market for junior professionals is saturated. Even internships are asking and getting candidates that can program in several languages and strong skills sets in ms-word processing and data management, for example. Those 3/4 time positions pay 800 BRL with some benefits. Daycare of course costs anywhere from 1200 - 2200 BRL/month and full time in-home assistance runs about 1300 BRL so, you could't even cover your expenses with these jobs. Basically, to break even, one needs to make around 2500 BRL. When however, I apply for/ express interest in these positions I seem to draw a really competitive or demeaning responses from HR. I am trying to decide if the problem is that this is more than they make or that it is that I am a foreigner imagining that I could take a "good job" away from a Brazilian. There is definitely major attitude around my interviews but, I can't figure out why. Basically, the interview goes great until they learn that I actually want a job (usually one for which I am overqualified) at a competitive local rate and not at the 1300 BRL mark. They want me to say that I'll just take anything they offer. When they reveal through the interview that that is not likely to happen (given our discussion of my career goals), they shut down and effectively the interview is over. This is my read anyway.

As an aside, I have found Brazilian women to be hyper competitive (of course they are not the only ones) but as you said, my experience has been far from the promoted rhetoric on foreigners. 

In my current position, I spent two years working to change attitudes by my junior staff and supervisor that I wasn't there work twice as hard as them at all the jobs they didn't want to do. It was not a "new kid on the block" attitude either as many of the junior people came in after me. There was definitely a perception that because of my cultural background, I could be driven to perform a lot harder. Truth is, I could have performed harder but, it would have required a doubling of my salary. 

Can you see anything systematic in my experience that may reveal something else that is holding back my ability to transition between fields? Do my experiences resemble yours or were they unique and therefore most likely just a byproduct of my specific environment and not a reflection of the general labour marketplace?

Thank you again for your feedback, I find it really valuable.


----------



## AnthonyRMC

I'll give you an example.

I lived 20 years in Rio. I know that city like the back of my hand. (I never should have moved, - but that is a different matter.)

Wanting to return, I applied for a job requiring an executive driver, fluent in English, who would obviously pick up foreigners from the airport, drive them around etc.

I am fully qualified for this, and on my resume, the employer could read that I was a Royal Marine Commando for 9 years, (three wars,) so I know how to drive in emergencies, watch out for the client......etc.

The application required a request for a salary. I asked for R$ 2000, which I considered low, but I was really wanting this job.

I didn't even get a reply. 
NOTHING. No 'thank you for your interest sir', or 'the vacancy has been filled' etc.

Show me a Brazilian driver who speaks fluent English? - They don't exist.
They get by, that is all. I would have made the executive visitors comfortable, being fluent, from England, and extremily knowlegable as to Rio. The culture etc.
I lived in the north zone (Irajá) for 12 years before moving to a favela bairro in Recreio dos Bandeirantes. I travelled all over Rio as an Engish teacher first, by bus, then opened my own company. (Another long story.)
I know Brazil better than most Brazilians. There are just three states that I haven't visited, to either work or just visit as a tourist. - Amapá, Acre and Roraima.
Many people don't even detect my slight accent in Portuguese these days. - I am often asked which state I am from. - Depends on the class of the person of course. Simple folk ask this. Upper class will detect my accent with prolonged conversation. - Then comes the usual and boring "where are you from, why are you here" etc etc. I cut it off quickly, with "I'm Brazilian, but I just wasn't born here, that is all". Obviously, with a good friend, I happily explain.

I was offered a job at a plush hotel, to work reception. They wanted me for the English. A few years ago. Salary offered...........R$ 700. I mean, *COME ON.* What exploitation. 
I could have administered the hotel for sure.

It surely is difficult here.
Most foreigners open their own businesses, or come down here with multinational companies on a contract, so avoid this type of thing.


----------



## Moimeme

*exactly*

Yes, this has been very close to my own experience in almost every way. I however, do still speak with an accent, I still field "the questions" (briefly) and most people ask which state (not country) I am from. I don't mind the conversation opener as I can see the warmth and interest in their intentions and I am happy to visit a little, even in the grocery line. I am frequently shocked by how many start to complain about Brasil when really, this country is a world leader in architecture, mathematics, music and dance, and exports well received high calibre soap operas to the entire world... and so much more!!
Admittedly, I do not have your extensive first hand knowledge through travel, a deficit I hope to correct 

As you suggested generally, I also tried going through the remote/foreign hire route but, unless you are a young male recruit (from finance or engineering) basically tied to Oil and Gas or a Super-Programmer, you are basically out of luck. When they refer to great demand for trained professionals with technical expertise, these are the areas they mean. Insurance, which is huge here, is largely for the Brazilians by the Brazilians and if interviewed, their intention is to hire you at global value equivalents (wages) much lower than one would expect at home and in accordance with the Brazilian lack of amenities. The real executives that are coming as ex-pats are being selected and sent by their higher ups that are neither Brazilian nor in Brazil so, don't reflect the local circumstances.

In general, my research indicates that local Brazilian hires, even with foreign credentials and experience are hired for much less than their ex-pat counterparts - despite doing the same job. The guys I know in computing almost all returned back to the United States within a year of coming home due to the disadvantages of returning and operating as a local on local terms. These are people who really love Brasil and were desperate to return, they just couldn't make the numbers work once they had conceded to come back. Any initial advantage had usually completely deteriorated by 2 years post return. Seeing the writing on the wall was enough to drive most strong team members away. Additionally, Brazilian fex-pats found they had to make great concessions in access to family safety, commute time and consumer goods in order to stay. Even though social environment, education and healthcare were regarded as better, the benefits in general were not enough to hold them here (in the specific cases I hold knowledge on). I am aware that there are exceptions to my statements above; such exceptions almost always revolve around a local they are in love with or being closer to family.

Interestingly, a reverse trend seems to be happening in universities where foreign governments and institutions are trying to promote collaborations with cheaper partners in South America in order to exploit younger, naive workers into dead end, low-paying research jobs from which they can be quickly and unceremoniously ejected (i.e. sent home to S.A.) when they no longer serve as a pawn for someone else's gain.

I totally agree with you on the English as well, it is of no real value in the workplace despite the advertisements, ditto for legal work authorization in Brazil - they are meaningless. I now think that the English disclaimer is used to knock out a set of competitors for an existing job for which they are hiring but, where they need to be able to justify hiring their chosen candidate. The job ad you are reading is likely not the real job, it is a construct to keep them out of trouble with the government. It is something they can put in legally as a "differential" that won't raise a red flag with the federal hiring regulations. 

In my own experience, all of the advanced English speakers in my firm that were my juniors required the work to be conducted in Portuguese because they lacked both language and cultural context to perform in English. It is not at all their fault, they are graduated believing they speak well but they lack relevant experience with the language. The psychology of all of this is quite funny, my MIL still pretends to have difficulty understanding me when I have been working, living and negotiating (now effortlessly) in Portuguese for years!! hahahaha Perception is an interesting and powerful lens.

Let's just say I get where you are coming from and was really relieved to have someone of your experience level validate my own perceptions.

Thanks again for sharing your real experience. Hopefully others reading this will also find this information useful BEFORE they make the leap, reach 40, believe the well intended friends and loved ones. I think success stories can happen here but in general, I think they are for entrepreneurs married to Brazilians that open their own businesses, a position that may broadly apply to foreign nationals in general as I have seen the hardships and disadvantages in my home country but never thought much about it until I experienced it personally.

Cheers mate.


----------



## AnthonyRMC

A couple of serious professionals here in my town, told me (they are my age, and have children in their 20's - university graduated,) that if their children were hired to work abroad, that whilst they would miss them, they would 'give thanks to God'.
Another two friends with two daughter each, who do work abroad. One of these men visited a daughter in New Jersey recently. 10 days. He loved it, and was offered work, which he is seriously considering. But he needs to get his English up to date, which will be difficult, in his 50's, with a class a week.

Brazil can't keep its professionals.
Brazil doesn't pay enough to keep them.
The poor? - Happy in their bliss and ignorance that they are working. They have the beach, football, Carnaval etc. What more is there to life? As the Romans used to say, "bread and circus", - keep the masses happy, by feeding them and entertaining them.

My problem is that I went 'native'.


----------



## Moimeme

Hahahahaha. 

Yes, I fully understand. 

Lovely to chat with you. I will watch for more of your insightful comments as this site evolves. 

Cheers.


----------



## warlock233

I would say it has more to do with your age than with you being a foreigner. 

The example Anthony gave about his experience applying for an executive driver position is a classical one... and I really don't get it... I'm not an employer, I'm also an employee, so I must be missing something.
In this particular case (executive driver), I have always heard complaints about the drivers who didn't speak proper English and caused problems to foreign visitors from the companies I worked for along the years. I even thought at some point to give up my profession and become a driver as I can speak English, Spanish and Portuguese, know how my way around Sao Paulo and really like to chat with people from other countries... 

Besides that, I sense that we are going in a bit of a small "crisis" here due to decrease in the sales of new vehicles. I feel the economy is strongly tied to this industry and since it's not performing well (all major car companies are firing people these days) there are a lot of people looking for jobs and less positions available - so competition is strong.

You also said you want to shift your career towards something new - this is the bit I can understand from an employer perspective: if there's you - with a relevant degree, but no experience in the field VS someone with the same degree and X years of experience... The employer will always tend to hire whoever has more experience. It is sad, and I trust you could do well if the opportunity was given, but usually people don't want to take that risk.

Keep trying - don't give up - maybe you need to step back a bit and accept a lower pay and then start growing again.


----------



## warlock233

Another piece of advice - it may or may not apply to you as I don't exactly know which particular area you are willing to work on, but usually big/multinational companies are less "racist" in my view.
In big companies (like IBM, GM, Nestle, etc...) there are so many people involved in the hiring process that it is almost impossible to take out a candidate just because of their age or nationality.

In a smaller company, where the decision is made by a person alone, I think it's more likely to happen.


----------



## Moimeme

*thank you again*

Dear Warlock233, 

Thank you so much for taking the time to add some additional perspective to my issue. I found your comment on company size very insightful. I agree with your point about switching fields and certainly would be willing to take lower pay to make the switch (i.e. from 4 to 2K as in the example from earlier in this post) so, we are on the same page there for sure! I do have experience in the "new field" as well, just not the decades of experience that I have in my current role.

I understand what you are saying about age as well. I find this view odd as I have no "break" in my career. Don't people take promotions and new jobs all the time? CEOs are not hired at 20 so, this idea that age is the major determining factor seems weird but, this is how it is. The problem therefore, appears to be that I am trying to compete for a relatively junior job above 40 and therein lies the rub 

@RMC and Warlock, thank you both for your efforts and supporting words, Cheers.


----------



## warlock233

Moimeme said:


> Dear Warlock233,
> 
> Thank you so much for taking the time to add some additional perspective to my issue. I found your comment on company size very insightful. I agree with your point about switching fields and certainly would be willing to take lower pay to make the switch (i.e. from 4 to 2K as in the example from earlier in this post) so, we are on the same page there for sure! I do have experience in the "new field" as well, just not the decades of experience that I have in my current role.
> 
> I understand what you are saying about age as well. I find this view odd as I have no "break" in my career. Don't people take promotions and new jobs all the time? CEOs are not hired at 20 so, this idea that age is the major determining factor seems weird but, this is how it is. The problem therefore, appears to be that I am trying to compete for a relatively junior job above 40 and therein lies the rub
> 
> @RMC and Warlock, thank you both for your efforts and supporting words, Cheers.


I'm trying to make my way out of Brazil right now, but if I were to stay here I had a big concern regarding my future in terms of careers perspectives.

I work as a network/telecom engineer - I spend most of my day looking at a monochromatic screen typing in commands and configuring/programming network devices. I really like doing it.
The problem here is that it seems "unacceptable" for someone over 35-40 to be doing this type of work. Apparently, one to be successful needs to be in a management position - and I often struggled to decide what to do because 1) I don't think was born with the gift of "leadership" and I deal much better with the equipment than with people and 2) I really like doing what I do - it took me many years of studies to get to where I am and I think it would be a waste to become a manager since at the same time I would be a "poor" manager and the company would lose a "good" engineer.

I don't know how it works abroad, but from my 10 years of experience working for American companies, my counterparts in the US were always way older than me (I'm 30). I have had colleagues over 55 doing the same type of work as myself - and over here I have met very few people over 40 doing it.
I even felt bad being called "Senior Engineer" by my company (considering I had 10 years exp) while I was working with someone who had already completed college when I was born. For me, "seniority" only comes with age/experience.

Still, as I said, on big companies who like to advertise that they have a "diverse force", I guess you would have more chances. And as anywhere in the world, good contacts can help you a lot. Sometimes you don't even get to the interview because there just so many people interested and they have to filter it somehow - and the "QI factor" ("Quem Indica") as we say here, is very valuable.


As a side note, I heard the other day that a local company here was calling retired employees to help them fixing some old/legacy industrial machinery. The "new" generation had the skills, but didn't have any experience. I heard the same about "mainframes" which are those old giant computers which are still in use by some companies.


----------



## Moimeme

*yup*

Thank you again for sharing your knowledge. 

Now back to you... 
while I don't have direct knowledge of your local politics, I can tell you that I recall a couple of family members take promotions that they hated because the firm required that of them. Sadly, I believe that if you keep saying no to a promotion, you will be squeezed out. Usually the squeeze happens when a new, younger and insecure manager has you assigned to his or her team. Young ambitious managers will frequently massage the truth on topics related to productivity and compliance to appear ready to climb sooner than their peers. Often this maneuvering takes the form of taking credit for others ideas and work. Since you truly have a lot of experience, you would see such attempts very quickly and would protect yourself and possibly others, therefore, you are eliminated in the name of risk management. For you to stay safe, you have to be at least toe to toe with them or the uppers will simply take the manager's word for it... and you are labeled a troublemaker and from that day forward, an untouchable.


----------



## Moimeme

mainframes... even the word makes me smile, hahaha


----------



## Moimeme

sorry... quick afterthought. 

I should have mentioned that the scenarios mentioned, where people basically HAD to accept the promotion did not happen in Brazil and were not at all in your field. I think the squeeze is a an epi-phenomenon of corporate politics.

If you would be willing to step sideways, there are positions for modellers (usually oil and gas, under "geologists") that might show longer term immunity from the pressures you are experiencing. The statistics needed would be low level stuff around linear regression and basic Bayesian concepts etc.; it is the lack of programming and computer skills (large dataset management) that hold most people back. Entry to the new path could be gained directly through HR or by applying for post-doctoral positions in relevant companies that are partnered with universities. The universities are most often in the middle east though and you would spend up to 2 years there for training though. The pay is not great (30K USD as a post-doc and 42K USD once employed in a FTE). This info may not have any relevance for you but, I did not want to not offer it... 

Sorry to rattle on. Cheers.


----------



## warlock233

Moimeme said:


> sorry... quick afterthought.
> 
> I should have mentioned that the scenarios mentioned, where people basically HAD to accept the promotion did not happen in Brazil and were not at all in your field. I think the squeeze is a an epi-phenomenon of corporate politics.
> 
> If you would be willing to step sideways, there are positions for modellers (usually oil and gas, under "geologists") that might show longer term immunity from the pressures you are experiencing. The statistics needed would be low level stuff around linear regression and basic Bayesian concepts etc.; it is the lack of programming and computer skills (large dataset management) that hold most people back. Entry to the new path could be gained directly through HR or by applying for post-doctoral positions in relevant companies that are partnered with universities. The universities are most often in the middle east though and you would spend up to 2 years there for training though. The pay is not great (30K USD as a post-doc and 42K USD once employed in a FTE). This info may not have any relevance for you but, I did not want to not offer it...
> 
> Sorry to rattle on. Cheers.


Yes, maybe this isn't exclusive to Brazil... I have never been offered a promotion, but I'm often told that I "can't grow" any further doing what I'm doing - and I don't wanna grow - I like my pay, my roles, etc.... so, a big dilemma 

Thanks for sharing the above info. I have many times considered to do a lateral move a find something else to do... but currently I'm working to get out of Brazil and make my way to Australia - and of course, I will be opened whatever is available there.

Regarding your situation here, I can't think of anything else to help you - you have a Brazilian husband so he probably knows how things work over here too... so be patient and don't give up - or consider moving back to Canada (I would if I could ).


----------



## Moimeme

Thanks again for all of your supporting words. My husband's point of view is highly suspect as he tends to be a little biased in terms of my abilities ;-) Also, I think that as much as any local tries, one is always somewhat immune to these kinds of struggles by foreigners, I know I was. 

Regarding Canadian employment. It's a big no go. Quem indica is alive and well in the Canadian circuit as well. The job market is tough, even for those who have a job. I know that many Brazilians have had success with coming to the Toronto area and working in restaurants etc. but with many Gen Y Canadians unable to find any work and still living in their parents homes, I would not like my or anyone else's chances nowadays. The NE EUA has reportedly largely recovered in terms of employment trends and other economic markers so, I guess that would be where I would "indicate" starting were it not for your goals in Australia. 

Good luck.


----------

