# Corporal punishment in Spanish schools?



## nina874

Just a quick thought that crossed my mind, do spanish schools still use corporal punishment?


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## Caz.I

nina874 said:


> Just a quick thought that crossed my mind, do spanish schools still use corporal punishment?


None that I know of do. In my son's school they are usually sent to back of the class or in the corner or have to sit in class during breaktime. In the one I work at, its similar, though they sometimes get given lines or have to sit with a teacher in the canteen during lunchtime. But maybe someone else knows different...


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## Rolling Stone

Yes, they definetly do in Andalucia in two of the schools near us. (My kids ex-school and my friends kids school). Not sure about the rest though.


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## nina874

Caz.I said:


> None that I know of do. In my son's school they are usually sent to back of the class or in the corner or have to sit in class during breaktime. In the one I work at, its similar, though they sometimes get given lines or have to sit with a teacher in the canteen during lunchtime. But maybe someone else knows different...


Oh good, I am all for them being punished when they are disobedient, I just draw the line at someone hitting my child, especially when it is not something that they encounter at home.


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## nina874

Rolling Stone said:


> Yes, they definetly do in Andalucia in two of the schools near us. (My kids ex-school and my friends kids school). Not sure about the rest though.


Ahhh not so good, which parts of Andalucia?


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## Jazintosh

Back in the 80´s when you turn unruly, fails an exam or misbehave; the "señorita" could hit you with a book or even slap you, not many times and i have to say that 99% of the corporal punisment i receive was deserved.
But i think that since the 90´s any teacher wouldn´t dare to touch a kid, the goverment overprotect children, that means if a little boy arrives home and tell their parents that he was punished at the school , the teacher its gona have a HUGE PROBLEM.
Of course could be isolated cases, but clearly is not the rule.

My favorite teacher "Don Fernando" was a very good man,friendly and generous, he care about our education and tried to teach us human values, respect people, animals and nature.He was and adventurer, profesional climber and judo teacher . The few times he losed his cool ,the only punishment he did was squeeze your cheeks and yell at you.

About 10 years ago he did that to a kid, the kid complained to his parents, parents complaint the School´s principal and Don Fernando was suspended for a couple of months and deployed to another school 100 km away from Estepona. An Unfair treatment i guess.


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## Pesky Wesky

nina874 said:


> Just a quick thought that crossed my mind, do spanish schools still use corporal punishment?


I think it's illegal and has been since 1985 (?). It doesn't mean that it doesn't happen however, but I tend to think along the lines of Jazintosh - the teacher , and school, would have big problems if corporal punishment was used.
There are two state secondary schools and 4 primary schools here and i've never heard of anything. I have heard of the occasional bullying story however...


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## xabiaxica

Rolling Stone said:


> Yes, they definetly do in Andalucia in two of the schools near us. (My kids ex-school and my friends kids school). Not sure about the rest though.


I know of no schools using corporal punishment in our area

a quick google led me to several sources stating that corporal punishment has been illegal in schools in Spain since 1985, so perhaps this should be taken up with the two schools in question.

corporal punishment in Spain


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## Caz.I

Rolling Stone said:


> Yes, they definetly do in Andalucia in two of the schools near us. (My kids ex-school and my friends kids school). Not sure about the rest though.


Are they state schools or private?

Caz.I


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## Jazintosh

CAZ.I i think that if a PRIVATE school punish phisically a student , the could have even more problems thant a public one. They probably could lose their license or at least teacher would be fire inmeadiately.


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> I know of no schools using corporal punishment in our area
> 
> a quick google led me to several sources stating that corporal punishment has been illegal in schools in Spain since 1985, so perhaps this should be taken up with the two schools in question.
> 
> corporal punishment in Spain


Thanks xabiachica, that was what I was looking for.


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Thanks xabiachica, that was what I was looking for.


did you see that it's illegal in the home, too?


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> did you see that it's illegal in the home, too?


Yes, isn't it in the UK??


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## Caz.I

Jazintosh said:


> CAZ.I i think that if a PRIVATE school punish phisically a student , the could have even more problems thant a public one. They probably could lose the license or at least teacher would be fire inmeadiately.


Really? Somehow I thought they could get away with things more than in a public one because they are not accountable to the Junta de Andalucia. I've heard stories about certain private ones (though not necessarily about corporal punishment), so I got the impression that they weren't always held to account.


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, isn't it in the UK??


according to the same website, apparently not

I remember there have been many discussions on the subject, but I don't really keep up-to-date with what goes on there tbh


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## Jazintosh

Yes its illegal, you CAN NOT TOUCH your own kids at home . Lot of Tv debates about the parents rigth to punish. 80% people understand that sometimes you have to be straigth with your children but as always, our dear president Zapatero wanna be Gandhi.


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## jojo

My sons international school dont, but my daughters state school do - well they throw blackboard rubbers, clip around the ear that sort of thing - I'm not sure about the cane. But I dont care, as far as I'm concerned if kids - including mine, misbehave and they know the consequences then tough!!! Consequences for actions, lifes full of em!!!

Jo xxxx


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## Rolling Stone

xabiachica said:


> I know of no schools using corporal punishment in our area
> 
> a quick google led me to several sources stating that corporal punishment has been illegal in schools in Spain since 1985, so perhaps this should be taken up with the two schools in question.
> 
> corporal punishment in Spain


Why should it be taken up with the schools? I assume any parents that have a problem with it will but I have no reason to complain. I won't debate the legality of it but you seem to be confusing law with reality. The question was does it happen so the answer was the reality of what happens and not what should or should not happen.

Yes, they are public schools but mine are now in Private and there is no spanking or hitting there. Not the reason they changed schools though.....


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## jojo

.........Surely there is no corperal punishment if kids behave anyway????

Jo xxx


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## nina874

Jazintosh said:


> Back in the 80´s when you turn unruly, fails an exam or misbehave; the "señorita" could hit you with a book or even slap you, not many times and i have to say that 99% of the corporal punisment i receive was deserved.
> But i think that since the 90´s any teacher wouldn´t dare to touch a kid, the goverment overprotect children, that means if a little boy arrives home and tell their parents that he was punished at the school , the teacher its gona have a HUGE PROBLEM.
> Of course could be isolated cases, but clearly is not the rule.
> 
> My favorite teacher "Don Fernando" was a very good man,friendly and generous, he care about our education and tried to teach us human values, respect people, animals and nature.He was and adventurer, profesional climber and judo teacher . The few times he losed his cool ,the only punishment he did was squeeze your cheeks and yell at you.
> 
> About 10 years ago he did that to a kid, the kid complained to his parents, parents complaint the School´s principal and Don Fernando was suspended for a couple of months and deployed to another school 100 km away from Estepona. An Unfair treatment i guess.


Hi Jaz, I hear what you are saying and I know that there are situations that might in some peoples eyes merit the use of corporal punishment, but I think that the problem was that some teachers exceeded the boundries. I for one believe that to a degree violence begets violence.

I am relieved that it is illegal in Spain, I had all sorts of images going through my head!


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## nina874

jojo said:


> .........Surely there is no corperal punishment if kids behave anyway????
> 
> Jo xxx


Define behave, I had a friend whose kids went to a Sri Lankan school where they were hit for laughing or talking in class, let alone failing to do their work! I know that my kids arent angels, they aren't violent or aggressive, but neither are they perfectly behaved! I used to get blackboard rubbers thrown at me with alarming regularity (and accuracy) when I was in high school, but I would be distinctly unimpressed if someone did that to my 7 year old!


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## xabiaxica

Rolling Stone said:


> Why should it be taken up with the schools?


because they are breaking the law..................


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## jojo

nina874 said:


> Define behave, I had a friend whose kids went to a Sri Lankan school where they were hit for laughing or talking in class, let alone failing to do their work! I know that my kids arent angels, they aren't violent or aggressive, but neither are they perfectly behaved!



Maybe I'm a bit harsh, but if they know they shouldnt talk or laugh in class then tough!!!! But obviously there should be a good reason and theres nothing worse than a few kids messing around and getting away with it to the detriment of the rest of the class!! That was one of the reasons my son couldnt learn anything in his UK school. So many kids messing around that the teacher didnt have time to teach the rest anything!!!

Sorry, I'm all for it, in fact I think thats half the problem with todays society, too many excuses and too few consequences!

BTW, I havent smacked my children since they were very young, and then hardly ever. It worked as a deterant more than a punishment

Jo xxxx


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## nina874

jojo said:


> Maybe I'm a bit harsh, but if they know they shouldnt talk or laugh in class then tough!!!! But obviously there should be a good reason and theres nothing worse than a few kids messing around and getting away with it to the detriment of the rest of the class!! That was one of the reasons my son couldnt learn anything in his UK school. So many kids messing around that the teacher didnt have time to teach the rest anything!!!
> 
> Sorry, I'm all for it, in fact I think thats half the problem with todays society, too many excuses and too few consequences!
> 
> BTW, I havent smacked my children since they were very young, and then hardly ever. It worked as a deterant more than a punishment
> 
> Jo xxxx


I think that at infant/ junior school level if the teacher cannot control the class without hitting people then she/he should get another job. 

Children that are disruptive should be removed from the classroom not beaten. I completely agree with you that disruptive kids destory the chance of others to learn, so remove them and teach them seperately in silence until they learn.

Are you saying that you never took a long lunch at work, or used a company phone for personal calls in company time? Would you think it was reasonable for you to be hit in front of your collegues for doing so? If I walked up to a member of my staff and hit them with a stick for chatting instead of working I would be up in court so fast that my feet would not touch the ground. Why do children deserve less protection from violence than adults? I am not saying that I have never smacked my children, I am saying that as a parent it is the final sanction, and that only I have the right to decide if it is appropriate or not, and I cannot remember the last time I had to use it!

Have to say that once they are at high school and fully understand actions and consequences then I am much more open to the odd blackboard duster being thrown.......


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## jojo

nina874 said:


> I think that at infant/ junior school level if the teacher cannot control the class without hitting people then she/he should get another job.
> 
> Children that are disruptive should be removed from the classroom not beaten. I completely agree with you that disruptive kids destory the chance of others to learn, so remove them and teach them seperatly in silence until they learn.
> 
> Are you saying that you never took a long lunch at work, or used a company phone for personal calls? Would you think it was reasonable for you to be hit in front of your collegues for doing so? If I walked up to a member of my staff and hit them with a stick them for chatting instead of working I would be up in court so fast that my feet would not touch the ground. Why do children deserve less protection from violence than adults? I am not saying that I have never smacked my children, I am saying that as a parent it is the final sanction, and that only I have the right to decide if it is appropriate or not, and I cannot remember the last time I had to use it!
> 
> Have to say that once they are at high school and fully understand actions and consequences then I am much more open to the odd blackboard duster being thrown.......


I dont condone beating at all - beating is usually brought about by an uncontrolled rage which is nothing to do with corporal punishment and has no place in education or parenting!! As for hitting colleagues at work, well I dont believe that adults should hit each other - they're equals and dont need it Children are minors and should not be treated like adults - if they were then who are we to stop them going into pubs, going out at night, drinking, wearing what they want, telling them to tidy their rooms, go to school, do their homework...... 


Children are to be brought up and need to learn respect and discipline! But the cane or whatever works miracles as a deterant!!! 

Jo xxx


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## Rolling Stone

jojo said:


> .........Surely there is no corperal punishment if kids behave anyway????
> 
> Jo xxx


I agree......that is why I never worried about it. My kids were never lined up in the hall and spanked with the other kids that were acting up. Typically the parents that had a problem with it were the ones whose kids had a reason to be punished because they didn't learn to behave at home.


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## Rolling Stone

xabiachica said:


> because they are breaking the law..................


I see people that break the law everyday........there are people that enforce that and they are called Guardia Civil.....not my job to enforce the law. 
My kids behaved so they did not get punished/spanked so it had nothing to do with me.


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## nina874

jojo said:


> As for hitting colleagues at work, well I dont believe that adults should hit each other - they're equals and dont need it
> 
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


I am not talking about collegues, I am talking about those that are paid well to do a job, and those that are doing the paying. They are not in any sense of power 'equal'. Just because one is recieving instruction and ignoring it does not give the other the right to hit them. I can assure you that after I have been through the torturous process that is involved whenever I want to fire a member of staff who is just p******* around instead of doing any work whilst I am paying them they are not my equal, and they are probably far more culpable than a kid who gets a fit of the giggles.


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## jojo

nina874 said:


> I am not talking about collegues, I am talking about those that are paid well to do a job, and those that are doing the paying. They are not in any sense of power 'equal'. Just because one is recieving instruction and ignoring it does not give the other the right to hit them. I can assure you that after I have been through the torturous process that is involved whenever I want to fire a member of staff who is just p******* around instead of doing any work whilst I am paying them they are not my equal, and they are probably far more culpable than a kid who gets a fit of the giggles.


there you see, those employees should have a "good hiding" when they were kids!!!! They would be better behaved adults then!!!! LOL

Jo xxx


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## Tallulah

I've not heard of any corporal punishment in this day and age going on in schools - just tales of what used to happen when my m-i-l and OH were in school. What I would say though is that teachers are perhaps more "physical" - yes, they will step in and remove a child from class or two children fighting by, for example, grabbing them by the arm and frogmarching them out of the room or even by the ear - and have even heard of a teacher walking by a disruptive child in class and giving them a clip behind the head. It's not quite the softly softly approach taken in the UK, but it's getting there.


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## nina874

Rolling Stone said:


> I agree......that is why I never worried about it. My kids were never lined up in the hall and spanked with the other kids that were acting up. Typically the parents that had a problem with it were the ones whose kids had a reason to be punished because they didn't learn to behave at home.


My lord, could I meet your kids, because they must be the first kids ever in the history of the universe to never laugh at an inappropriate time, forget to do their homework, forget their pe kit, or even have an opinion that differed from yours!

I agree that kids who are causing problems should have a system of punishment, but I disagree with small children being hit for minor transgressions.

And trust me my children are for more frightened of my sanctions than they ever would be if I were to lower myself to that level. It isnt about letting kids get away with things, it is about teaching small children that violence is never the answer.


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## nina874

Tallulah said:


> I've not heard of any corporal punishment in this day and age going on in schools - just tales of what used to happen when my m-i-l and OH were in school. What I would say though is that teachers are perhaps more "physical" - yes, they will step in and remove a child from class or two children fighting by, for example, grabbing them by the arm and frogmarching them out of the room or even by the ear - and have even heard of a teacher walking by a disruptive child in class and giving them a clip behind the head. It's not quite the softly softly approach taken in the UK, but it's getting there.


Dont mind them being physical at all, and I do whole heartedly agree that in the UK it has got to ridiculous proportions! I would love the teachers to be able to intervene when it is called for, just have a problem with the idea of a 7 year old being caned for giggling in class if you get my drift.


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## nina874

jojo said:


> there you see, those employees should have a "good hiding" when they were kids!!!! They would be better behaved adults then!!!! LOL
> 
> Jo xxx



Dya think I would get away with dressing it up as emotional development programs for the staff then??


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## Rolling Stone

nina874 said:


> I am not talking about collegues, I am talking about those that are paid well to do a job, and those that are doing the paying. They are not in any sense of power 'equal'. Just because one is recieving instruction and ignoring it does not give the other the right to hit them. I can assure you that after I have been through the torturous process that is involved whenever I want to fire a member of staff who is just p******* around instead of doing any work whilst I am paying them they are not my equal, and they are probably far more culpable than a kid who gets a fit of the giggles.


You kow why they are able to get that power over you to get you so upset? They probably went to a school that did not allow the teachers to spank them....now they mis-behave at work since they never learned


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## jojo

nina874 said:


> My lord, could I meet your kids, because they must be the first kids ever in the history of the universe to never laugh at an inappropriate time, forget to do their homework, forget their pe kit, or even have an opinion that differed from yours!
> 
> I agree that kids who are causing problems should have a system of punishment, but I disagree with small children being hit for minor transgressions.
> 
> And trust me my children are for more frightened of my sanctions than they ever would be if I were to lower myself to that level. It isnt about letting kids get away with things, it is about teaching small children that violence is never the answer.



IMO there is a distinct line between violence and disapline with a smack! I am not a violent person, but I found when mine were younger - 3 to 5 years, that a smack to prevent danger or to let them know that they were doing something bad, worked alot better than a long explanation which they would argue with at that age! I'd explain too - theres no point in a smack without the child knowing and understanding why! 

As I've said, it was very rare that I smacked mine anyway, but it worked beauutifully as a deterant. Even now, for a joke I will count (thats what I always used to do and if I got to three....!!) at my grown up daughters and they immediately stop what they're doing!!!!!!!

Jo xxx


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## Tallulah

nina874 said:


> Dont mind them being physical at all, and I do whole heartedly agree that in the UK it has got to ridiculous proportions! I would love the teachers to be able to intervene when it is called for, just have a problem with the idea of a 7 year old being caned for giggling in class if you get my drift.


Well it's not going to happen so don't worry about it! Although at times you may wish it was still enforced if god forbid the little blighters from families who really couldn't give a (lets put it a nice way here) fig about what their kids do and just see school as babysitting duties and couldn't give a flying **** about their kids education started causing problems for your own kids, brought up well, respectful, etc.


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## nina874

jojo said:


> IMO there is a distinct line between violence and disapline with a smack! I am not a violent person, but I found when mine were younger - 3 to 5 years, that a smack to prevent danger or to let them know that they were doing something bad, worked alot better than a long explanation which they would argue with at that age! I'd explain too - theres no point in a smack without the child knowing and understanding why!
> 
> As I've said, it was very rare that I smacked mine anyway, but it worked beauutifully as a deterant. Even now, for a joke I will count (thats what I always used to do and if I got to three....!!) at my grown up daughters and they immediately stop what they're doing!!!!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Just realised how sanctimonious my reply sounded! I didnt mean to come off that way, I was distracted when I typed it!

I was actually on the same page as you Jo when they were too small to understand danger- sticking things in plugs springs to mind - then I would shout no, but if they carried on I would smack their hands. The younger ones as a rule are less tricky as they have witnessed the monumental bust ups and punishments that the older ones incurred! In fact I did chase my 19 year old around the kitchen with a wooden spoon the other week which caused some alarm with the younger ones - didnt flippin catch him though.... My punishemnts are legend and usually involve their name going on the dog poo rota for a very long time, coupled with bin cleaning duties and any other rancid task that is usually shared out amongst them all. Works fairly effectively I have found...

Its not that I am against someone grabbing their arms or smacking their hand if they catch them passing notes, its the degree of punishment and for what crime IYKWIM, the thought of a little one being caned....... frankly I dont care what they have done.

For what it is worth my husband went to a strict boarding school in Kenya (Kenton), he was caned every week for even the most minor trangessions from being 6 years old. Did it teach him to respect authority? did it heck, it actually made him rebel to some tune and he got himself into all sorts of bother in his teens!


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## jojo

nina874 said:


> Just realised how sanctimonious my reply sounded! I didnt mean to come off that way, I was distracted when I typed it!
> 
> I was actually on the same page as you Jo when they were too small to understand danger- sticking things in plugs springs to mind - then I would shout no, but if they carried on I would smack their hands. The younger ones as a rule are less tricky as they have witnessed the monumental bust ups and punishments that the older ones incurred! In fact I did chase my 19 year old around the kitchen with a wooden spoon the other week which caused some alarm with the younger ones - didnt flippin catch him though.... My punishemnts are legend and usually involve their name going on the dog poo rota for a very long time, coupled with bin cleaning duties and any other rancid task that is usually shared out amongst them all. Works fairly effectively I have found...
> 
> Its not that I am against someone grabbing their arms or smacking their hand if they catch them passing notes, its the degree of punishment and for what crime IYKWIM, the thought of a little one being caned....... frankly I dont care what they have done.
> 
> For what it is worth my husband went to a strict boarding school in Kenya (Kenton), he was caned every week for even the most minor trangessions from being 6 years old. Did it teach him to respect authority? did it heck, it actually made him rebel to some tune and he got himself into all sorts of bother in his teens!


Hey, I love a good discussion!!! I know that you, like me have 100s of kids LOL, so we are pretty well qualified to hold our own on the subject!!!! But maybe we're on the same side anyway!?

The worst thing I ever did to any of mine was when my daughter (26 now) was 16 she went thru THAT AGE and called me a F****** W****!!! I ordered her to her room and she just said "you cant make me" in a very belligerent tone! So I did "make her" I actually picked her up by her throat and threw her into her room with her screaming about calling child line!!!!!

The one thing I've learnt with kids, regardless of anything else tho is to carry out threats, mean what you say and not weaken. But be there for them!

Jo xxx


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## Tallulah

Look, generally the way it works around here where I am for a kid who's been disruptive or who has behaved incredibly badly and has worked up a long record is that the parents (if they're bothered/interested) are of course notified. The child gets a "falta de orden" - these accumulate (usually to about 3, maximum 5) at which point a "falta grave" is given. Usually a suspension of a few days is then awarded. The school will endeavour to work extremely closely with the parents during this period - especially at the point of suspension.
If the particular form of behaviour is not curtailed, then a permanent exclusion from the school results. The child is then transferred to another school. Of course, at that point several avenues have already been investigated into said child's education record - and that child may be fast-tracked (especially from the age of 14 say) to ESA where if they have repeated several times and have no hopes of graduating ESO then they will go onto what will hopefully be a trade training of some sort.


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## nina874

jojo said:


> Hey, I love a good discussion!!! I know that you, like me have 100s of kids LOL, so we are pretty well qualified to hold our own on the subject!!!! But maybe we're on the same side anyway!?
> 
> The worst thing I ever did to any of mine was when my daughter (26 now) was 16 she went thru THAT AGE and called me a F****** W****!!! I ordered her to her room and she just said "you cant make me" in a very belligerent tone! So I did "make her" I actually picked her up by her throat and threw her into her room with her screaming about calling child line!!!!!
> 
> The one thing I've learnt with kids, regardless of anything else tho is to carry out threats, mean what you say and not weaken. But be there for them!
> 
> Jo xxx


NEVER show weakness!!! and never ever set a punishment that will cause you more disruption that them, they will wear you down...!

My DS has just asked if we are related after reading the discussion that you had with your daughter - he actually said 'good god why would you say that out loud - what was she thinking????LOL'


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## nina874

Tallulah said:


> Look, generally the way it works around here where I am for a kid who's been disruptive or who has behaved incredibly badly and has worked up a long record is that the parents (if they're bothered/interested) are of course notified. The child gets a "falta de orden" - these accumulate (usually to about 3, maximum 5) at which point a "falta grave" is given. Usually a suspension of a few days is then awarded. The school will endeavour to work extremely closely with the parents during this period - especially at the point of suspension.
> If the particular form of behaviour is not curtailed, then a permanent exclusion from the school results. The child is then transferred to another school. Of course, at that point several avenues have already been investigated into said child's education record - and that child may be fast-tracked (especially from the age of 14 say) to ESA where if they have repeated several times and have no hopes of graduating ESO then they will go onto what will hopefully be a trade training of some sort.


Sounds like a really good system! I wish they actually implemented something along those lines here. I cannot stand parents that dont back up the school and then are the first to scream when it doesnt go their way. If the kids know that you take it seriously then they take it seriously! One of my favorite sayings is ' 'fine dont do your homework - I dont have to do your detention so its up to you.' they know that I will always back up the school first!

I must sound like mrs overprotective - I'm not at all, one of the reasons we are hoping to move is because of the bullying that one of my kids has had to endure because he - shock horror- actually wants to work in lessons!


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## Rolling Stone

nina874 said:


> Sounds like a really good system! I wish they actually implemented something along those lines here. I cannot stand parents that dont back up the school and then are the first to scream when it doesnt go their way. If the kids know that you take it seriously then they take it seriously! One of my favorite sayings is ' 'fine dont do your homework - I dont have to do your detention so its up to you.' they know that I will always back up the school first!
> 
> I must sound like mrs overprotective - I'm not at all, one of the reasons we are hoping to move is because of the bullying that one of my kids has had to endure because he - shock horror- actually wants to work in lessons!


If that is all, do not worry, as bullying is everywhere so he can get that in Spain too! Especially in the school with no punishment for the bullies!


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## nina874

Rolling Stone said:


> If that is all, do not worry, as bullying is everywhere so he can get that in Spain too! Especially in the school with no punishment for the bullies!


I trust that this is an attempt at humour??


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## xabiaxica

Tallulah said:


> Look, generally the way it works around here where I am for a kid who's been disruptive or who has behaved incredibly badly and has worked up a long record is that the parents (if they're bothered/interested) are of course notified. The child gets a "falta de orden" - these accumulate (usually to about 3, maximum 5) at which point a "falta grave" is given. Usually a suspension of a few days is then awarded. The school will endeavour to work extremely closely with the parents during this period - especially at the point of suspension.
> If the particular form of behaviour is not curtailed, then a permanent exclusion from the school results. The child is then transferred to another school. Of course, at that point several avenues have already been investigated into said child's education record - and that child may be fast-tracked (especially from the age of 14 say) to ESA where if they have repeated several times and have no hopes of graduating ESO then they will go onto what will hopefully be a trade training of some sort.


that's pretty much how it works here too - & it does seem to work

_most_ kids seem to be horrified if their parents are called in & the bad behaviour stops


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## xabiaxica

Rolling Stone said:


> If that is all, do not worry, as bullying is everywhere so he can get that in Spain too! Especially in the school with no punishment for the bullies!


yes of course there's bullying

but no corporal punishment doesn't mean no punishment

really smart idea - bully the bullies into submission



nina874 said:


> I trust that this is an attempt at humour??



unfortunately I don't think it was.................


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## morlandg

The one thing I've learnt with kids, regardless of anything else tho is to carry out threats, mean what you say and not weaken. But be there for them!

After reading the whole thread and enjoying the discussions I think Jo said the most important thing - even tho' it did not appear to be picked up by the others. It is highlighted in red above.
Grandad Graham


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## nina874

morlandg said:


> The one thing I've learnt with kids, regardless of anything else tho is to carry out threats, mean what you say and not weaken. But be there for them!
> 
> After reading the whole thread and enjoying the discussions I think Jo said the most important thing - even tho' it did not appear to be picked up by the others. It is highlighted in red above.
> Grandad Graham


Total agreement here on that point, I always say to mine ' I may not like you at the moment, but I will always always love you'


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## Rolling Stone

Rolling Stone said:


> If that is all, do not worry, as bullying is everywhere so he can get that in Spain too! Especially in the school with no punishment for the bullies!


Not really humorous......I noticed after switching to the private school, where the consequences for misbehavior are less, there are many instances of bullying than there were in the public school that had corporal punishment. It is a complaint with many of the parents in the school. 

Really the conversation should be with the school. I knew the level of punishment before my girls attended on the first day. Some parents requested no corporal punishment and as far as I have heard the request have been respected. I would talk in depth with the school and make your determination of which school the kids should attend based on that.


----------



## jojo

nina874 said:


> I may not like you at the moment, but I will always always love you



Yes!! thats a well used phrase in our house hold too!!! 

Jo xxx


----------



## Tallulah

xabiachica said:


> that's pretty much how it works here too - & it does seem to work
> 
> _most_ kids seem to be horrified if their parents are called in & the bad behaviour stops


I think the schools are really starting to get a handle on "psychological" bullying now, rather than the trad physical stuff. And of course, within this wonderful world of technology, there's stuff going out on Tuenti (big Spanish networking site like FB) so there's cyber bullying as well. Our school has made a step towards this by banning cameras and camera phones at the school now. But you've just got to be so aware these days of all the angles that can be used to threaten your children.


----------



## fgbcn

jojo said:


> My sons international school dont, but my daughters state school do - well they throw blackboard rubbers, clip around the ear that sort of thing - I'm not sure about the cane. But I dont care, as far as I'm concerned if kids - including mine, misbehave and they know the consequences then tough!!! Consequences for actions, lifes full of em!!!
> 
> Jo xxxx


Amazing! Life is full of consequences. With that logic I should be allowed to slap the businessman on the bus for talking on his cell phone. Or maybe give my work friends a clip around the ear if he does not finish his weekly report on time?

There is a difference from consequences to abuse. abuse among adults are prohibited as are abuse from adult to child. Work on your communication skills...

Do some reading on child education, preferably work published after WWII.


----------



## fgbcn

Rolling Stone said:


> I see people that break the law everyday........there are people that enforce that and they are called Guardia Civil.....not my job to enforce the law.
> My kids behaved so they did not get punished/spanked so it had nothing to do with me.


You see a old defenseless senior walking down the street getting mugged by a gang. You quietly pass by and go about your day as usual, would not dream about reporting it to the police since they are not hitting you?

My god you are a model citizen


----------



## jojo

fgbcn said:


> Amazing! Life is full of consequences. With that logic I should be allowed to slap the businessman on the bus for talking on his cell phone. Or maybe give my work friends a clip around the ear if he does not finish his weekly report on time?
> 
> There is a difference from consequences to abuse. abuse among adults are prohibited as are abuse from adult to child. Work on your communication skills...
> 
> Do some reading on child education, preferably work published after WWII.


We're talking about children, we-re talking about teaching them to pay attention and behave in class, which in turn will help teach them how to behave in society. Afterall its our job to bring children up to be happy and successful in the world! Life is about learning consequences for actions, and I guess the businessman on the bus would teach you one if you did slap him!! Altho I guess if he knew you were likely to hit him because you told him first and he saw you as an authoritive figure he might listen to you and stop first?? Altho he'd probably wonder who you were to be telling him what he could and couldnt do???

As for childrens education, well, you bring yours up how you want to, I'll do the same with mine thanks! 

Jo xxx


----------



## fgbcn

SteveHall said:


> fgcbn - what an arrogant first poster you are. The moderator has 5 well-behaved, well-brought up children. You on the other hand enter the forum by kicking the door in, abusing a poster and spraying us with your views on life. This was a reasoned discussion going on by consenting adults.
> 
> I suppose "your" model citizens were the ones who brought Strömstad to a halt this afternoon when the local youths ambushed the Norwegians who had crossed the border from Halden and Fredrikstad. Running street battles continued until the police brought the matter under control. Reinforcements had to be brought in with dog handlers from Uddevalla.
> Yesterday Systembolaget had previously decided not to open for fear of the hassle they had had on previous skärtorsdagar.
> 
> Or were "your" model citizens the ones that pre-arranged on their mobiles a pitch battle in and outside a restaurant in Gamla Stan, Stockholm last weekend between two groups of "friends" as petrifed locals and tourists had to barricade themselves into the restaurant?
> 
> Per Albin Hansson must be turning in his grave when he sees what folkhemmet has morphed into.
> 
> That is NOT the behaviour you will see all over Spain tonight when literally millions of Spaniards will take to the streets to watch the Semana Santa processions.
> 
> I had not commented previously but did not want you to think that in this forum you can get away with this type of behaviour.


Maybe you are reading to much in to my post. At no point did I refer to Sweden as a model, nor do I think everything is perfect in Sweden. After all there must be some reason why I moved to Spain?

My Swedish upbringing did however teach me that I'm entitled to my opinion. As for if her kids are well behaved or not, I have no way of assessing this. Well-brought up as you are referring to is a relative term...

You compare individual acts in Sweden and Spain in your statistics. I'm not sure that not abusing your kids will result in fewer crimes. It's very possible that you can scare people in to "good behavior". Singapore for example have some of the lowest crime rates in the world. They have death penalty on many crimes, no freedom of speech, press or alike. But very well behaved citizens. I don't want my home to be a oppressive regime.

Also acts expressed here are a offense in Spain since the new laws has already been approved. So anyone who wants to keep hitting their kids should move to a country where it's legal or face the risk of getting caught.


----------



## jojo

fgbcn said:


> Maybe you are reading to much in to my post. At no point did I refer to Sweden as a model, nor do I think everything is perfect in Sweden. After all there must be some reason why I moved to Spain?
> 
> My Swedish upbringing did however teach me that I'm entitled to my opinion. As for if her kids are well behaved or not, I have no way of assessing this. Well-brought up as you are referring to is a relative term...
> 
> You compare individual acts in Sweden and Spain in your statistics. I'm not sure that not abusing your kids will result in fewer crimes. It's very possible that you can scare people in to "good behavior". Singapore for example have some of the lowest crime rates in the world. They have death penalty on many crimes, no freedom of speech, press or alike. But very well behaved citizens. I don't want my home to be a oppressive regime.
> 
> Also acts expressed here are a offense in Spain since the new laws has already been approved. So anyone who wants to keep hitting their kids should move to a country where it's legal or face the risk of getting caught.


Thats the point isnt it, freedom of choice!!!!!! You choose to live in Spain, Steve chooses to live in Sweden for half the year and Spain the other half. I choose to have my children brought up with the knowledge that if they do bad things they will be punished! My kids are great, they are all respectful and respectable members of society - well my youngest is a handful, but at 12 its to be expected!

I still maintain that if my children knowlingly misbehave, they know the concequences and could get a blackboard rubber thrown at em!!! because they've learnt!

Jo xxx


----------



## fgbcn

jojo said:


> We're talking about children, we-re talking about teaching them to pay attention and behave in class, which in turn will help teach them how to behave in society. Afterall its our job to bring children up to be happy and successful in the world! Life is about learning consequences for actions, and I guess the businessman on the bus would teach you one if you did slap him!! Altho I guess if he knew you were likely to hit him because you told him first and he saw you as an authoritive figure he might listen to you and stop first?? Altho he'd probably wonder who you were to be telling him what he could and couldnt do???
> 
> As for childrens education, well, you bring yours up how you want to, I'll do the same with mine thanks!
> 
> Jo xxx


I agree that we should teach our kids to behave, let me give you a real world example.

_My daughter, 3 at the time, was hit on the playground by another kid. The kids mother runs over, slaps her kid and says he's not allowed to hit other kids._

This to me is a fail in logic.

I don't think anyone young or old should fear physically for their harmless actions or opinions. Force can sometimes be needed to stop or prevent an action, but should never be used as a punishment.

You end your post with saying that we should each raise our own kids. But this thread is originally referring to corporal punishment in School. Where you said you did not mind it, therefore your opinion has an indirect risk of hurting my kids.

If corporal punishment in schools are reported wherever they take place I like to think the risk of it being administrated in other schools decrease.


----------



## Stravinsky

I went to a Grammar school in Warwickshire with much the same attitude. Many times I had the cane for one thing or another.

That was bad enough ........ but I should also tell you that the Junior & Infants School I went to before that also had the same attitude. If you were naughty then you were sent to the headmaster and you got the slipper! So in both schools, corporal punishment was the rule of the day.

I have to say that in the Junior School I seemed to get the slipper more than most. If I was anywhere near trouble then an example was made of me.

The reason??? Well, the Headmaster of the school I attended was my father. There was no shirking homework in our house!


----------



## jojo

fgbcn said:


> I agree that we should teach our kids to behave, let me give you a real world example.
> 
> _My daughter, 3 at the time, was hit on the playground by another kid. The kids mother runs over, slaps her kid and says he's not allowed to hit other kids._
> 
> This to me is a fail in logic.
> 
> I don't think anyone young or old should fear physically for their harmless actions or opinions. Force can sometimes be needed to stop or prevent an action, but should never be used as a punishment.
> 
> You end your post with saying that we should each raise our own kids. But this thread is originally referring to corporal punishment in School. Where you said you did not mind it, therefore your opinion has an indirect risk of hurting my kids.
> 
> If corporal punishment in schools are reported wherever they take place I like to think the risk of it being administrated in other schools decrease.


You are missing the point!! Of course hitting a child for hitting a child is stupid!! Duh, any fool can see that!!! However, a warning that IF you hit another child, you will be punished - then you have the concequences for actions senario and the child can make a choice - simples!!!!!

And as for my comment about how we raise our own kids, well if your kids are well behaved then there isnt a problem is there!!! But if they know that the consequences of being naughty is the cane - then its their choice !!!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## Stravinsky

SteveHall said:


> ....... and it never did you any harm, did it?


It gave me a sore @rse 

But I am a firm believer that half of ther problem with kids in the UK these days is lack of parental care. In other words the parents arent strict enough and let their kids do what they want to. It doesnt necessarily mean CP. I never smacked my daughter, but I made it very clear to her what her responsibilities were and what the rules were. Ok she overstepped it sometimes, but she is now a responsible adult who appears to have been bought up properly


----------



## fgbcn

SteveHall said:


> Do you know what the Spanish expression is for "turning a blind eye"?
> 
> "Hacer el sueco". ("Do the Swedish thing")
> 
> In view of your comment, you might find that rather ironic! I did!
> 
> If I collapsed in the street in Strömstad tomorrow, I´d expect the first 10 people to walk past muttering "Det angår inte mig" (It´s nothing to do with me) In Spain people would come rushing in to assist. In Sweden, if you park the car badly wait for "somebody" to inform the police. In Spain, "somebody" would be badly parked too.
> 
> What´s that thing in the bible? Specks, planks etc etc??


"Hacer el sueco" as far as i know is from WWII when Sweden happily exported Iron to Nazi germany etc etc, it's become an expression in Spain thats true, as is the Swedish bikini team and the Swedish chef famous in the USA. Not quite sure about the relevance here... 

The namedropping of Swedish cities is truly amazing, again not sure about the relevance, so far you named a bunch of Swedish cities but no Spanish. Are you trying to prove your knowledge in Swedish geography?

If someone informed the police about a badly parked car in Sweden they would not care, since it's not the police that handles that kind of traffic offenses. The Police in Sweden is of national control and the parking is a municipal matter.

Now that we have discussed the Swedish cities and the Swedish policy and parking system lets get to the point;

My point was that the RIGHT thing to do was to protect people who can not protect them self (kids and old people for example). No matter if they are your own kids or your own grandparents.

I don't see the point in if it's the most Swedish thing or not....

And as for Spaniards running to help maybe you remember the video from a few years ago of a woman getting brutally kicked in the Subway in Spain with no one helping?


----------



## fgbcn

jojo said:


> You are missing the point!! Of course hitting a child for hitting a child is stupid!! Duh, any fool can see that!!! However, a warning that IF you hit another child, you will be punished - then you have the concequences for actions senario and the child can make a choice - simples!!!!!
> 
> And as for my comment about how we raise our own kids, well if your kids are well behaved then there isnt a problem is there!!! But if they know that the consequences of being naughty is the cane - then its their choice !!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


I think you are confusing punishment and corporal punishment. A consequence of an naughty action is parenting, but if that consequence is physical or humiliating then it's currently illegal in Spain.

If the only consequence you can think of is hitting your child, well, think again...


----------



## jojo

fgbcn said:


> "Hacer el sueco" as far as i know is from WWII when Sweden happily exported Iron to Nazi germany etc etc, it's become an expression in Spain thats true, as is the Swedish bikini team and the Swedish chef famous in the USA. Not quite sure about the relevance here...
> 
> The namedropping of Swedish cities is truly amazing, again not sure about the relevance, so far you named a bunch of Swedish cities but no Spanish. Are you trying to prove your knowledge in Swedish geography?
> 
> If someone informed the police about a badly parked car in Sweden they would not care, since it's not the police that handles that kind of traffic offenses. The Police in Sweden is of national control and the parking is a municipal matter.
> 
> Now that we have discussed the Swedish cities and the Swedish policy and parking system lets get to the point;
> 
> My point was that the RIGHT thing to do was to protect people who can not protect them self (kids and old people for example). No matter if they are your own kids or your own grandparents.
> 
> I don't see the point in if it's the most Swedish thing or not....
> 
> And as for Spaniards running to help maybe you remember the video from a few years ago of a woman getting brutally kicked in the Subway in Spain with no one helping?


How about we get back on topic - Steve lives in Sweden half the year in fact he-s there now and has done for a long time, he has family there I believe. However, the relevance escapes me!???

Jo xxx :focus:


----------



## fgbcn

Stravinsky said:


> It gave me a sore @rse
> 
> But I am a firm believer that half of ther problem with kids in the UK these days is lack of parental care. In other words the parents arent strict enough and let their kids do what they want to. It doesnt necessarily mean CP. I never smacked my daughter, but I made it very clear to her what her responsibilities were and what the rules were. Ok she overstepped it sometimes, but she is now a responsible adult who appears to have been bought up properly


I agree, I think in many countries including Sweden (yes, Strömstad, Stockholm, Örebro and all other Swedish cities some people can think of) have a problem of parents not being involved in their childrens upbringing.

I think in many cases their is lack of parenting, control, rules and consequences. However I do not agree that these consequences should ever be violent or humiliating. People should listen and talk to their kids instead, they are much smarter and more interesting then many people give them credit for.


----------



## fgbcn

SteveHall said:


> So no apology to Jojo and no comment on the whole "hacer el sueco" message. Noted.
> 
> I'll clearly be in the absolute minority with this opinion but - as you rightly point out that's democracy - and my belief is "Spare the rod and spoil the child" I went to a VERY strict Grammar School where corporal punishment was a daily part of the curriculum and a thrashing with a cane was the norm for insolence or violence on staff, bullying, vandalism and other anti-social behaviour. It was not used for poor work or lateness. "Public" caning was the order of the day for the worst offenders - putting fireworks through a neighbour's door got 5/6 boys on stage for 6of the best.
> 
> NO complaints from the boys, the staff, the neighbours or the bleeding hearts' brigade.
> 
> I still remember the repercussions of getting sent off playing for Kent against Nord Rhein Westfalia in Bad Pyrmont and the incident in the bar afterwards. I was apparently a disgrace to myself, my family, my class, my school, the football association ..... and life in general. I was never picked for my house team or school again and in any case I was too sore from the cane to have wanted to have played for weeks LOL
> 
> NO complaints from Steve, my classmates, my teachers or the bleeding hearts' brigade. The xxxx Latin master in the next lesson would not even let me stand up.
> 
> Did I moan that it was not on school premises or a school team? Did I complain that it was a sports' related incident and not in school time? Did I mention that I was goaded? Did I mention that the German U-17s all had beards and drove cars? Did we ask for their birth certificates? Did I mention that I was the only boy from my school selected and that I was sure the boys from the local secondary moderns and tech schools would not be caned? NO WAY! In any case, any comment other than a complete apology to 600+ boys and teachers to the whole school assembly would only have doubled the dose.
> 
> No, I realised that what I had done was wrong and accepted the consequences.
> 
> Did this corporal punishment make it a bad school? No, it was the County Grammar School where 50+ pupils fought for every place, where 80%+ went to univeristy (NOT polytechnics), where school uniform rules were strictly enforced. (1 hour detention for incorrect sportswear etc)
> 
> Spare the rod and spoil the child.
> 
> OK, guys! I'm waiting!!


Sounds like you had a hard upbringing. I'm guessing your point is that no one complained and that you turned out a quite ok guy. And that the physical punishments made your realize right from wrong.

The fact that you grew up under bad conditions do not make you a bad guy, some of the brightest minds has grown up under bad conditions.

Question is if the physical abuse and humiliation added something that could not have been achieved without it. I am defiantly not saying that you can not scare someone to act good, i'm saying that you should not.

I'm saying that the same results and better results can be achieved without physical punishments or humiliating treatment. The way to do this is however not just to remove the physical punishments but to replace them with humane treatment, rules, boundaries and care.

The fact is that if you look further back in our history people got wiped in public for theft, or put in the "stocks".

According to Wikipedia the last time the stocks where used in the UK was in 1872. But according to your story public humiliation was used in your school much later then that. (Stocks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

I can not understand why public humiliation and corporal punishment should be an acceptable punishment for a child but not for an adult?

Or is your opinion that we should reinstate the "stock" in the town squares for adults as well?


----------



## Rolling Stone

fgbcn said:


> You see a old defenseless senior walking down the street getting mugged by a gang. You quietly pass by and go about your day as usual, would not dream about reporting it to the police since they are not hitting you?
> 
> My god you are a model citizen


No I would not run to the police....I would defend the senior *then* report it to the police. You are comparing apples to oranges. 

What I was saying was I am not there to enforce illegal activity as I have plenty of other responsibilities. Should I stop every driver speeding on the road when I drive to work? Should I call the guardia civil for every car I spot parked incorrectly? Should I report every person with a nanny or housekeeper that gets paid in cash with no intent on paying taxes? 

My kids were never spanked in the school because they learned to behave at home. As an active parent in the school I heard the discussions with the parents that had kids spanked and they did not have a problem with the method of discipline. So who is getting mugged here that requires me, or anyone, to step in? The "defenseless" child that just hurt your kid bullying them during playtime? The one that had the parents approval before they disciplined him immediately after his actions?

You do know the difference between abuse and discipline right? I assume there is a clear line in the black and white fantasy world you live in.....

No need to comment as I will not battle wits and logic with a defenseless and unarmed person. Someone may call the police on me for that!


----------



## nina874

SteveHall said:


> Still no apology to Jojo. Noted
> 
> No, I did NOT have a hard upbringing! I had what I consider a disciplined upbringing where I was taught respect for family, friends, "my elders", my colleagues and my team-mates at the county grammar school. The only thing "hard "about it was the extremely high levels of academic achievement that was expected of every pupil in every subject. To this day I can still recite a whole pile of Latin verbs and decline irregular nouns that we were made to learn by rote.
> 
> Absolutely, I'd have NO problems with stocks or worse for some of the little scumbags who kick defenceless grannies senseless or rape young girls.
> 
> Only an opinion .......of course!


I am in complete agreement with you on the stocks Steve, I have no problems with adults facing the consequences of thier actions!By the time you have reached adulthood you should have been taught emapthy, actions and consequences. My personal opinion is that we no longer teach our children to care about how others feel, and that is what is wrong with kids today, far too much of the me me me culture. The old saying 'do unto others' is something that you see scant little of nowadays.

I have to say that the opposite of what you describe held true for my DH though, he went to boarding school in Kenya and was caned on a regular basis - the very fact that it happened so often is an indication of how ineffective it was - and he rebelled in the most spectacular fashion because he wasn't afraid of consequences. He still laughs about the fact that if you got 4 demerits in a week you had to do detention all day on a Saturday so you would push the boat out and go for 5 so that you get 6 of the best instead! Apparently that 5th demerit could prove somewhat hard to achieve, whilst the first 4 used to happen with alarming ease.....


----------



## jojo

nina874 said:


> I am in complete agreement with you on the stocks Steve, I have no problems with adults facing the consequences of thier actions!By the time you have reached adulthood you should have been taught emapthy, actions and consequences. My personal opinion is that we no longer teach our children to care about how others feel, and that is what is wrong with kids today, far too much of the me me me culture. The old saying 'do unto others' is something that you see scant little of nowadays.
> 
> I have to say that the opposite of what you describe held true for my DH though, he went to boarding school in Kenya and was caned on a regular basis - the very fact that it happened so often is an indication of how ineffective it was - and he rebelled in the most spectacular fashion because he wasn't afraid of consequences. He still laughs about the fact that if you got 4 demerits in a week you had to do detention all day on a Saturday so you would push the boat out and go for 5 so that you get 6 of the best instead! Apparently that 5th demerit could prove somewhat hard to achieve, whilst the first 4 used to happen with alarming ease.....


Of course the one thing we will never know, certainly in individual cases is how people would have turned out if their upbringing had been totally different????? Personally, I think in general, we, as a society are doing ourselves and future generations an injustice by the lack of discipline and respect.

Jo xxx


----------



## nina874

jojo said:


> Of course the one thing we will never know, certainly in individual cases is how people would have turned out if their upbringing had been totally different????? Personally, I think in general, we, as a society are doing ourselves and future generations an injustice by the lack of discipline and respect.
> 
> Jo xxx


I know Jo, it is actually a scary responsibility when you stop and think about it! If you take it one step further and think that most people get their childrearing skills from their parents then it future generations that we are impacting on as well!

It has had a big impact on our descision to go to spain, when I look at some of the kids hanging around I just dont want that for mine IYKWIM, I just hope that when we get out there we can see some old fashioned values of family!

From mine being tiny I have always drummed into them 'how would you feel if someone did that to you!?!' but I dont see any evidence of many other parents saying the same to their kids!


----------



## jojo

nina874 said:


> I know Jo, it is actually a scary responsibility when you stop and think about it! If you take it one step further and think that most people get their childrearing skills from their parents then it future generations that we are impacting on as well!
> 
> It has had a big impact on our descision to go to spain, when I look at some of the kids hanging around I just dont want that for mine IYKWIM, I just hope that when we get out there we can see some old fashioned values of family!
> 
> From mine being tiny I have always drummed into them 'how would you feel if someone did that to you!?!' but I dont see any evidence of many other parents saying the same to their kids!



This was one of the reasons we came to Spain. Altho there are still youths in Spain who could be seen as being menacing, actually they dont seem to be. I'm in the UK at the mo and yesterday I went into Tescos and there were some lads, about 5 of them (14yo?) messing around on the trolleys outside. One of them pushed a trolley right into my path (I'll be kind and say it wasnt deliberate???) No apology tho. The Tesco trolley man, who saw what these lads were doing shouted at them to "pack it in" and the verbal abuse he got was appalling!!!!!! One lad threw an empty can at him. I just scuttled into the shop!!! Anyway, as I say, in Spain kids do hang around together, but they seem to be polite and respectful, they move to let people pass, smile and I dont feel threatened in the same way as I do by the little thugs in the UK. I think that Spanish families tend to bring their children up with more respect for themselves and others. Do they use more discipline????? I dont know, but they certainly seem to do a better job than parents in the UK.

In the UK they've recently been talking about it being compulsory to have a licence to own a dog....................

Jo xxx


----------



## fgbcn

SteveHall said:


> Still no apology to Jojo. Noted
> 
> No, I did NOT have a hard upbringing! I had what I consider a disciplined upbringing where I was taught respect for family, friends, "my elders", my colleagues and my team-mates at the county grammar school. The only thing "hard "about it was the extremely high levels of academic achievement that was expected of every pupil in every subject. To this day I can still recite a whole pile of Latin verbs and decline irregular nouns that we were made to learn by rote.
> 
> Absolutely, I'd have NO problems with stocks or worse for some of the little scumbags who kick defenceless grannies senseless or rape young girls.
> 
> Only an opinion .......of course!


My opinion is that you have had a hard upbringing, yours is that you did not. Noted

I know that you can teach children respect without hitting them, without humiliating them. If the benefit from a child beating is extensive knowledge of Latin verbs I think thats something most kids can do without.

My child managed to learn 3 languages without my hitting her a single time. Is your logic that maybe she will learn another one if I start hitting her?

You keep repeating things that you learned in combination with stories of your abuse, is your logic that you managed to learn all this because of the beatings you got as a child? And that without these beatings you would not?

In your post you accept "stocks" as a punishment for abusing old people and raping young girls. But would you accept if I put you in the stocks if you talk in the cinema? Or if you show up to work with a tie on casual friday? I think these are more accurate comparison to the offenses that kids make...


----------



## fgbcn

jojo said:


> This was one of the reasons we came to Spain. Altho there are still youths in Spain who could be seen as being menacing, actually they dont seem to be. I'm in the UK at the mo and yesterday I went into Tescos and there were some lads, about 5 of them (14yo?) messing around on the trolleys outside. One of them pushed a trolley right into my path (I'll be kind and say it wasnt deliberate???) No apology tho. The Tesco trolley man, who saw what these lads were doing shouted at them to "pack it in" and the verbal abuse he got was appalling!!!!!! One lad threw an empty can at him. I just scuttled into the shop!!! Anyway, as I say, in Spain kids do hang around together, but they seem to be polite and respectful, they move to let people pass, smile and I dont feel threatened in the same way as I do by the little thugs in the UK. I think that Spanish families tend to bring their children up with more respect for themselves and others. Do they use more discipline????? I dont know, but they certainly seem to do a better job than parents in the UK.
> 
> In the UK they've recently been talking about it being compulsory to have a licence to own a dog....................
> 
> Jo xxx


I agree, maybe because Spanish people spend more time as families, and parents engage in their children life and upbringing. I think the key to good parenting is involvement.

When a parent gets involved in their kids life I think they use more discipline then if they don't (discipline in my world is non violent non humiliating).


----------



## Guest

jojo said:


> This was one of the reasons we came to Spain. Altho there are still youths in Spain who could be seen as being menacing, actually they dont seem to be. I'm in the UK at the mo and yesterday I went into Tescos and there were some lads, about 5 of them (14yo?) messing around on the trolleys outside. One of them pushed a trolley right into my path (I'll be kind and say it wasnt deliberate???) No apology tho. The Tesco trolley man, who saw what these lads were doing shouted at them to "pack it in" and the verbal abuse he got was appalling!!!!!! One lad threw an empty can at him. I just scuttled into the shop!!! Anyway, as I say, in Spain kids do hang around together, but they seem to be polite and respectful, they move to let people pass, smile and I dont feel threatened in the same way as I do by the little thugs in the UK. I think that Spanish families tend to bring their children up with more respect for themselves and others. Do they use more discipline????? I dont know, but they certainly seem to do a better job than parents in the UK.
> 
> ...
> 
> Jo xxx


Oh boy Jo, I saw one heck of a fight on the local bus between a local "pija" (snobby) girl and a young man who worked at the local supermarket. It was 7 pm and very clear that the girl had been enjoying a botellon for a few hours already. The supermarket employee did nothing to deserve her heckling - he entered the bus and she started up.

Perhaps I just feel this way because I have spent most of the past two years here in secondary schools but I'm not so sure that I'm willing to say adolescents are enormously different between the US and Spain, Canada and Spain, Mexico and Spain, etc. I've never been to the UK so I can't make that comparison.  But, well, from what I've seen they're a handful worldwide.


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## VFR

I can remember as if it was yesterday wandering down to the heads office for the Cane & Book, 2 strokes (well Sneaton never stroked) was the norm with the occasional 6.
Did it do me any harm ?, well I cannot remember it doing me any good as I was not the type to learn from that as it just made me more determined to not get caught next time (slow learner lol)
These were the days when no one had the slightest notion to study/ask/enquire just why I was featuring so high in the cane register, but in hindsight had they done so life may well have been easier.

Would I have allowed this on my children ?, you know the answer I guess & this habitual dishing out of punishment by some often sadistic adults masquerading as teachers may well have led to the pendulum swinging so far in the opposite direction by the now adults refusing to stand for anything like this on their offspring (discipline by all means, but not the cane)

A pal of mine attended the first comprehensive in the UK (I believe) called Rising Hill (?) where the kids just ran riot for the most part as far as I knew & I guess that the PC industry started around this time also.

Super nanny seems to have the balance about right


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## JazII

SteveHall said:


> Still no apology to Jojo. Noted
> 
> No, I did NOT have a hard upbringing! I had what I consider a disciplined upbringing where I was taught respect for family, friends, "my elders", my colleagues and my team-mates at the county grammar school. The only thing "hard "about it was the extremely high levels of academic achievement that was expected of every pupil in every subject. To this day I can still recite a whole pile of Latin verbs and decline irregular nouns that we were made to learn by rote.
> 
> Absolutely, I'd have NO problems with stocks or worse for some of the little scumbags who kick defenceless grannies senseless or rape young girls.
> 
> Only an opinion .......of course!


Here here......I believe folks should be punished for their actions too. 

At school the threat of receiving the cane or a smack on the hand with a ruler did you no harm, in fact it acted as a deterrent. Furthermore neighbors could tell you off without fear of being reported to the police and respect was instilled from an early age. These crazy nanny state ideals that are currently in place in the UK do nothing more than encourage disrespect.

It's a pleasure to see kids respecting adults in Spain. I concur with what Jo said about groups of youths moving out the way to let you past rather than acting in a menacing manner. What's more if the need arises anybody from the old man down the road to a parent can tell a child off without fear of reprise. Let's hope they never adopt the UK nanny state ideals here.


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## jojo

fgbcn said:


> My opinion is that you have had a hard upbringing, yours is that you did not. Noted
> 
> I know that you can teach children respect without hitting them, without humiliating them. If the benefit from a child beating is extensive knowledge of Latin verbs I think thats something most kids can do without.
> 
> My child managed to learn 3 languages without my hitting her a single time. Is your logic that maybe she will learn another one if I start hitting her?
> 
> You keep repeating things that you learned in combination with stories of your abuse, is your logic that you managed to learn all this because of the beatings you got as a child? And that without these beatings you would not?


IT NEEDS TO BE POINTED OUT TO ALL WHO READ THIS OR POST HERE THAT THIS THREAD IS NOTHING TO DO WITH CHILD BEATING! 

I nor anyone else here is condoning such actions as they are punishable by law and quite rightly so.

Jo


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