# What is considered our date of settling in Germany? And pet check question.



## Lil_M (May 16, 2012)

Hello,

Project relocate to Germany is go. We have an apartment, we have a rental agreement that starts on 1 December. However we will probably "move" there later in the month, possibly driving a couple of times from the UK to bring over our stuff. What would be considered our "date of arrival in Germany"? Will the question come up in paperwork? (i.e. applying for my rights to live and work there as the spouse of an EU citizen? or Anmeldung, I'd imagine?)

Our plan for now is to keep our jobs in the UK and work remotely, still generating an income, but living in Germany. (At least until finding more local and permanent jobs in Germany) What kinds of tax duties and/or complications should we be warned of in such a scenario?

We will be taking our cats with us, driving through Eurotunnel. I know there is a pet check going into the UK (we brought the cats from Poland and did all that on the way over here) but none coming out of the UK. And then it's a simple drive on through Europe until we land in Germany. Is there any point where the cats would be checked that their vaccinations are up to date? They already have EU pet passports. 

Thanks!


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## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

Lil_M said:


> Hello,
> 
> Project relocate to Germany is go. We have an apartment, we have a rental agreement that starts on 1 December. However we will probably "move" there later in the month, possibly driving a couple of times from the UK to bring over our stuff. What would be considered our "date of arrival in Germany"? Will the question come up in paperwork? (i.e. applying for my rights to live and work there as the spouse of an EU citizen? or Anmeldung, I'd imagine?)
> 
> ...


You take up residence when you register at the local municipality. This should happen within a certain deadline of moving (you arrive in Germany and intend to stay, not just a quick stopover for dropping off luggage), this is usually 7 or 14 days, please check your municipality's website.

The question will come up when you apply for a residence card for family members of EEA nationals and when you register with your health insurance. Everybody who resides in Germany is required by law to have health insurance (EHIC will not work for this) and the insurance provider will invoice you from the date on your Anmeldebescheinigung.

The biggest problem with working remotely is, that your UK employers will have to either somehow pay into the German tax and social security systems, or pay you the gross amount of your salaries and then you have to organise paying income tax, health insurance and social contributions yourself. If you don't have a German employer who pays half of health insurance, unemployment insurance, etc., etc., this will dent your take home pay considerably.

Sorry, I know nothing about moving with pets


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## Lil_M (May 16, 2012)

Thank you for the information! Another question I have, regarding applying for my visa, is if my husband (Polish national) lives in Germany but still works for his company in London, does that still count as "Exercising his treaty rights" as an EU citizen? There is no requirement that one has to be working for a German company (or self employed and registered in Germany) in order to exercise their EU treaty rights for living/working there, is there? 

We are driving over from the UK, so upon first relocation over there there will be no showing my passport at the German border. However, we do plan on flying back to London briefly for work duties, then flying back to Germany. This might be before I manage to get my visa. So... do I need to explain anything to the immigration people at the airport about the fact that I'm married to this Polish guy and we have an apartment in Germany? Would they just by default stamp me like a regular non-EU tourist? Would my existing EEA Residency Card for the UK be of any help in returning to Germany after we move there but before I get my German visa?


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

The question of whether your husband, with Polish citizenship, can move to Germany to work for a company in the UK, is an interesting one. I don't really have an answer. One could argue that he doesn't *need* to be in Germany to do his job, so should he be allowed to stay? It might be better if he's not an employee but rather sets up as a contractor. This would also solve the tax and health insurance issues. Ultimately you might want to get some professional advice before proceeding.

In terms of your entering Germany, it's been my experience that they rarely so much as glance at a US or Canadian passport. You are simply granted entry, and you have 90 days to sort out your affairs with the foreigner's office. You would also have the same tax and health insurance issues as your husband, so would want to become a contractor rather than an employee.

Some 15 years ago we brought a cat into Germany, from Canada. It was relatively simple. I'm sure that procedures have changed, but I don't think it's become more difficult. Just check with the German consulate.

Not sure which city you're moving to, but be aware that some locations - particularly Berlin - now have horrible wait times for both local registration (Anmeldung) and sorting out your residence permit with the Ausländerbehörde.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

I'm not sure how strict Germany is on this, but the notion of the EU spouse "exercising their EU rights" usually requires a bit more than working remotely for a company elsewhere in the EU. (Plus, there is the matter of Brexit sometime within the next two years.)

To be considered working in Germany for the purposes of registering as a non-EU spouse, you generally need to be registered with and paying into the German tax and social insurance system (including health care and retirement). The suggestion that your husband set up as a contractor is probably the best approach - though that will take time once you have actually moved.
Cheers,
Bev


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## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

Lil_M said:


> Thank you for the information! Another question I have, regarding applying for my visa, is if my husband (Polish national) lives in Germany but still works for his company in London, does that still count as "Exercising his treaty rights" as an EU citizen?


He could at the most exercise treaty rights as self-sufficient through his job in the UK. Expect issues with health insurance and taxes and probably also with your RC application (not a visa, by the way). By law, everybody who is resident in Germany has to have German health insurance from the day of registration.




Lil_M said:


> There is no requirement that one has to be working for a German company (or self employed and registered in Germany) in order to exercise their EU treaty rights for living/working there, is there?


That's pretty much the definition of exercising treaty rights.

It's freedom of movement in order to easily _take up employment_ (or studies) in other member states.


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## Lil_M (May 16, 2012)

So, getting more deeply involved, now, the Berlin.de residency card website makes things seem fairly straightforward (at least for the application). But I still have a few questions on the requirements they list: 


"Proof of registered residence of the EU or EEA citizen" - is this something we'd get after Anmeldung?

"Proof of the right to free movement of the EU/EEA citizen
In individual cases, proof of the right of freedom of movement of the EU/EEA citizen may be required. Please therefore bring the following documents with you:

for employees: confirmation from the employer of the appointment or employment
for self-employed workers: business registration, tax number, current tax demand
for non-employed persons: proof of health insurance and means of subsistence"

It's been suggested that my husband just become self-employed and set up a business here, which may be what he does (we are planning on speaking with a tax advisor), but how do the health insurance requirements differ between "self-employed" and "non-employed" persons? Is health insurance something that will have to be proven/resolved in the process of becoming self-employed, and therefore you don't need special proof of it for the EEA residency card? (And meanwhile if you're considered not technically employed in Germany, you still need to seek out insurance, yourself, and provide proof of it?) 


"Proof of main residence in Berlin
Certificate of registration at the main residence or
lease and written confirmation of occupancy from the landlord" - What's the difference between this and "Proof of registered residence"? 

Also, is this just asking for his proof of residence? Should I/can I also do Anmeldung now, too? (And also regarding Anmeldung, we've got the lease for our apartment, in German, with both of our names on it. Do we also need another form that the landlord has signed, confirming we've moved in? I wasn't sure if that's also required, or only necessary for people who aren't specifically named on the lease). Also, do I need to have proof of health insurance/my income/anything else of the sort about myself for applying for the EEA residency permit? Or is that just issued based on his degree of being settled in this country and me tagging along as a non-EU family member? And what was it that I saw under another similar thread about having to prove your health insurance after 90 days of being here? (http://www.expatforum.com/expats/ge...any/1088121-non-eu-spouse-moving-germany.html) Is there some 90 day grace period that one is given to get insurance from the time they arrive here? 

(A lot of questions, I know! But it's all becoming real now! Thanks again, in advance!)


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

I can give you some general guidelines but you're in a slightly odd situation - a US citizen with a remote "offshore" job married to an EU citizen also with a remote job (in other words, no particular need or reason to be in Germany).

For proof of registration of residence, get the Anmeldung as soon as possible. You need it for all kinds of things, from bank accounts to library cards to newspaper subscriptions. Typically you would bring that piece of paper to the Ausländerbehörde, not the lease. You now need a landlord's signature on the application form for the Anmeldung, but otherwise it's a quick and fairly automatic process. 

The next thing, in terms of timing, is that you have 90 days to get everything sorted out with the Ausländerbehörde (so make an appointment now, today, given how busy things can be in Berlin). You both will need to have signed up for suitable health insurance before the appointment. Until you obtain a residence permit - either as the spouse of an EU national, or on your own merits - you're simply an American tourist who can stay up to 90 days, nothing more. You aren't allowed to work during this time, though if you have a remote job it's not necessarily going to be an issue.

Where I have no expertise is your husband's situation, and how it relates to you - we've only come over on US or Canadian passports. I'm not sure where exactly he goes and what he needs to do, and whether you are automatically included in that process. As has been stated previously, it's not at all clear that moving to Berlin to work remotely for a UK employer is actually "exercising treaty rights" - there's no particular reason it needs to be Germany, is there? Could just as easily be France or Denmark or Poland. That's where I think you both might benefit from some professional advice, as it might be very important to set up as self-employed, and to do it in such a way that certain additional taxes (the Betriebssteuer) are avoided.

One last note on health insurance. If you had public insurance in the UK you might qualify for public insurance in Germany, but without a German employer you'd be paying the full amount, approximately 15 percent of income. Private insurance may or may not be a better deal but once private it's difficult to return to public so it's a decision one shouldn't make lightly.


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## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

Lil_M said:


> So, getting more deeply involved, now, the Berlin.de residency card website makes things seem fairly straightforward (at least for the application). But I still have a few questions on the requirements they list:
> 
> 
> "Proof of registered residence of the EU or EEA citizen" - is this something we'd get after Anmeldung?


Anmeldebescheinigung - invest a few Euro into the sturdy A4 version for each of you - this is your proof of address from here on, since you don't have a German national ID card that shows your current address.



Lil_M said:


> "Proof of the right to free movement of the EU/EEA citizen
> In individual cases, proof of the right of freedom of movement of the EU/EEA citizen may be required. Please therefore bring the following documents with you:


They are saying: are you exercising treaty rights?



Lil_M said:


> for employees: confirmation from the employer of the appointment or employment
> for self-employed workers: business registration, tax number, current tax demand
> for non-employed persons: proof of health insurance and means of subsistence"


Provide all that's applicable to your situation as above.



Lil_M said:


> It's been suggested that my husband just become self-employed and set up a business here, which may be what he does (we are planning on speaking with a tax advisor), but how do the health insurance requirements differ between "self-employed" and "non-employed" persons? Is health insurance something that will have to be proven/resolved in the process of becoming self-employed, and therefore you don't need special proof of it for the EEA residency card? (And meanwhile if you're considered not technically employed in Germany, you still need to seek out insurance, yourself, and provide proof of it?)


I don't know enough about health insurance under self employment to answer this. I only know: self employed health insurance is usually more expensive than employed (employer pays 50%, spouses without own income are insured free of charge) and voluntary (no employment) insurance is even more expensive than that.




Lil_M said:


> "Proof of main residence in Berlin
> Certificate of registration at the main residence or
> lease and written confirmation of occupancy from the landlord" - What's the difference between this and "Proof of registered residence"?


Anmeldebescheinigung, lease and landlord form (you need the lease and landlord form to get the Anmeldebescheinigung anyhow).



Lil_M said:


> Also, is this just asking for his proof of residence? Should I/can I also do Anmeldung now, too? (And also regarding Anmeldung, we've got the lease for our apartment, in German, with both of our names on it. Do we also need another form that the landlord has signed, confirming we've moved in? I wasn't sure if that's also required, or only necessary for people who aren't specifically named on the lease). Also, do I need to have proof of health insurance/my income/anything else of the sort about myself for applying for the EEA residency permit? Or is that just issued based on his degree of being settled in this country and me tagging along as a non-EU family member? And what was it that I saw under another similar thread about having to prove your health insurance after 90 days of being here? (http://www.expatforum.com/expats/ge...any/1088121-non-eu-spouse-moving-germany.html) Is there some 90 day grace period that one is given to get insurance from the time they arrive here?
> 
> (A lot of questions, I know! But it's all becoming real now! Thanks again, in advance!)


You both need to register within the given deadline of taking up residence in Berlin, I don't remember whether that is 7 or 14 days.

You will both receive your tax numbers within a few weeks of registering. This has nothing (or little) to do with self-employment, if you want to go that path, you will need to register with the tax office of your Bezirk (Finanzamt) and set things up with them.

Within 90 days of arrival, you can apply for a residence card without supplying financial or health insurance information. Don't expect such an application to be processed quickly. I have heard from several applicants that their application was kept aside until the 90 days had passed and were then asked to provide proof of exercising treaty rights and proof of health insurance. 

When exactly you sign up with a health insurance does not matter so much (personally, I would do so as soon as possible). Every resident in Germany has to have health insurance from the day of taking up residence. The health insurance provider will retrospectively invoice you from the day on your Anmeldebescheinigung (and until the date on your Abmeldebescheinigung, if you leave Germany permanently).


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

> You both need to register within the given deadline of taking up residence in Berlin, I don't remember whether that is 7 or 14 days.
> 
> You will both receive your tax numbers within a few weeks of registering. This has nothing (or little) to do with self-employment, if you want to go that path, you will need to register with the tax office of your Bezirk (Finanzamt) and set things up with them.


Two minor points.

I think it's 14 days from moving in to get the Anmeldung, but I've also heard that it's very difficult to get a Bürgeramt appointment that quickly in Berlin. Try to book online but if that doesn't work then you may need to go the early-morning-queue route.

I may be wrong on this, but what they send you after registration, I learned, is a social security number. You need it to get a tax number, which you apply for at the Finanzamt and which requires additional information like marital status etc. That would all be part of setting up as self-employed, but even if you remained salaried employees of the UK company you'd need to make some sort arrangement to pay German instead of British taxes.

The other thing you'll receive within a few weeks of registration is a bill for the TV tax (the GEZ) that is something like 17 euro per month for the apartment. Whether you have a TV or not.


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## Lil_M (May 16, 2012)

Thanks again for the info!

Yes, we've already been advised by local friends to just go in person early in the morning for anmeldung. And it looks like that may be what I need to do for my EEA family permit, too ("If no online appointments are available within the period desired, customers must present themselves in person with a queue number."), as the first appointment for that isn't until 18 April... 

Question on the insurance thing - I've heard a few times that public insurance is a good idea because it's harder to get into public insurance after you've been with private insurance. But what are the benefits of being with public insurance? From my first general impressions it seems private insurance may be cheaper? (I am generally healthy and fit with next to no medical needs, concerns, or problems).


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

I'm no expert on this but the prevailing online forum opinion was that private insurance can be cheaper if you're young and healthy, but then the price will go up as you grow older and riskier, but you can't easily then switch back to public (which makes sense from a risk-pool point of view). I think there are also differences in terms of private being sold per-person while public covers an entire family at one rate (which makes private potentially cheaper for someone single and childless). 

Part of your calculation will depend on your long-term plans. If you intend to leave Germany after five or ten years, then maybe private is the way to go. If you plan to stay forever, then ensure you don't exclude yourself from eventually going public somehow. Possible future children may or may not complicate the decision.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

Lil_M said:


> ...what I need to do for my EEA family permit, too...


I'm not certain but I would assume that you and your husband go together. He applies for a residence permit as an EU/EEA national exercising treaty rights, you apply for your family permit at the same time. (So among the vast dossier of papers you'll assemble, include the marriage certificate, ideally with a German translation.)

Perhaps that's obvious but the way you phrased it suggests that maybe you thought you'd do things separately. I'm also guessing here because I don't know all the ins and outs of the EEA route.


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## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

Nononymous said:


> I'm not certain but I would assume that you and your husband go together. He applies for a residence permit as an EU/EEA national exercising treaty rights, you apply for your family permit at the same time. (So among the vast dossier of papers you'll assemble, include the marriage certificate, ideally with a German translation.)
> 
> Perhaps that's obvious but the way you phrased it suggests that maybe you thought you'd do things separately. I'm also guessing here because I don't know all the ins and outs of the EEA route.


The EEA spouse does not apply for a residence permit - he does not need anything apart from Anmeldung and fulfilling any other general requirements of residing in Germany (i.e. health insurance) same as German nationals.

BUT as the EEA spouse is the sponsor of the non-EEA spouse, he has to accompany the OP.


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## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

Nononymous said:


> I may be wrong on this, but what they send you after registration, I learned, is a social security number. You need it to get a tax number, which you apply for at the Finanzamt and which requires additional information like marital status etc. That would all be part of setting up as self-employed, but even if you remained salaried employees of the UK company you'd need to make some sort arrangement to pay German instead of British taxes.


The tax ID sent after registration is sufficient for any employment purposes. A different number (or at least adjustment in status, not sure how they do it since the Finanzamt has gone digital) is needed for self-employment, etc.

Marital status is already asked at registration stage but that does not mean that the most advantageous tax brackets are allocated automatically - you have to go to the Finanzamt and ask for that to be done. You also can't change tax brackets as often as you want, so you might want to research which tax bracket (Steuerklasse) combination is best for your personal situation.

OP - Is your husband's UK employer aware that your husband is no longer a UK resident?


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## Lil_M (May 16, 2012)

So, surprisingly there isn't too bad of a wait for anmeldung appointments at our local bureau in Berlin. But, silly question now - can my husband and I go together, at the same appointment? Or do we each need one of our own? (I wonder as it asks me for the name of the applicant to book the appointment)


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

Lil_M said:


> So, surprisingly there isn't too bad of a wait for anmeldung appointments at our local bureau in Berlin. But, silly question now - can my husband and I go together, at the same appointment? Or do we each need one of our own? (I wonder as it asks me for the name of the applicant to book the appointment)


You can both go together on one appointment. Last time for us (three years ago) I went myself and took everyone's passports and did it for the rest of the family as well. But to be safe, go together.


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