# Research trips to Mexican towns



## Haskins

My wife and I began our research trips to look for a place in Mexico to retire. We just spent 12 days in Mexico City and Puebla. We began in Mexico City, spending 5 days as tourists, mainly exploring the historic center, but also visiting local museums, Chapultepec park and Polanco district. We loved the colonial architecture of the historic center as well as the museums there, but we found CDMX to be way to crowded and large for our taste. WE then spent three days in the center of Puebla. Loved it more than CDMX! But it just didn't feel right for my wife. Too bad, because I was already seeing myself moving into one of those beautiful, colorful colonial apartments there. WE then headed back to CDMX to continue our trip. We stayed there 4 more days. On the last day, we visited the local CDMX district of Coyoacan and immediately fell in love with it! Its "Arts District" feel, beautiful buildings and small town feel turned it into our top destination so far. We even discovered Frida Kahlo's home a few blocks from the plaza! In a few weeks we will be exploring Queretaro, San Miguel, and Guanajuato. Lets see what we find....


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## TundraGreen

Haskins said:


> My wife and I began our research trips to look for a place in Mexico to retire. We just spent 12 days in Mexico City and Puebla. We began in Mexico City, spending 5 days as tourists, mainly exploring the historic center, but also visiting local museums, Chapultepec park and Polanco district. We loved the colonial architecture of the historic center as well as the museums there, but we found CDMX to be way to crowded and large for our taste. WE then spent three days in the center of Puebla. Loved it more than CDMX! But it just didn't feel right for my wife. Too bad, because I was already seeing myself moving into one of those beautiful, colorful colonial apartments there. WE then headed back to CDMX to continue our trip. We stayed there 4 more days. On the last day, we visited the local CDMX district of Coyoacan and immediately fell in love with it! Its "Arts District" feel, beautiful buildings and small town feel turned it into our top destination so far. We even discovered Frida Kahlo's home a few blocks from the plaza! In a few weeks we will be exploring Queretaro, San Miguel, and Guanajuato. Lets see what we find....


I like Coyoacan as well. At one time, I considered living there, but a planned job did not work out.


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## izzenhood

Please update us with your travels.


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## Haskins

izzenhood said:


> Please update us with your travels.


I most definitely will.


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## Haskins

Early tomorrow morning, we'll be flying from Reynosa's airport to Queretaro and then we'll take the shuttle to our Airbnb in San Miguel. Hopefully by the end of this trip we'll have a pretty good idea where our first Mexican home is going to be. I'll let y'all know how it unfolds.


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## chicois8

I love SMA, so many Texas license plates........so little time.


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## UrbanMan

chicois8 said:


> I love SMA, *so many Texas license plates*........so little time.


Maybe a reason to avoid SMA?


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## esga

Would love to hear more about why your wife didn't think Puebla was the place for her.


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## UrbanMan

I find interesting research trip accounts wherein visitors focus on architecture and spend time visiting attractions such as museums. These to me don't seem like the big factors that will drive whether or not a certain neighborhood or locale will be a great fit for you.


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## circle110

UrbanMan said:


> I find interesting research trip accounts wherein visitors focus on architecture and spend time visiting attractions such as museums. These to me don't seem like the big factors that will drive whether or not a certain neighborhood or locale will be a great fit for you.


I agree. 
For example, I too love to visit Coyoacán but living there presents some serious issues. One, the driving and parking is a nightmare and the public transportation is mediocre at best and there aren't really supermarkets and other things you need on a regular basis very close to the charming centro. Then there is the cost. For the price of a tiny studio apartment in Coyoacán with no parking, we are looking at a beautiful 3 bedroom home with covered parking, security, pool and a gym membership in Queretaro. As they say, location, location, location.

Of course these things all depend on your lifestyle and preferences. If I were single and had no kids, Coyoacán would be much more attractive -- I would deal with the hassles to reap the benefits.


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## citlali

yes another exemple of a great place to visit..


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## Haskins

esga said:


> Would love to hear more about why your wife didn't think Puebla was the place for her.


We only stayed in the historic center and ate local meals such as mole, chile en nogada, etc., all are plates I love. She's not to keen on the spicy foods. To be fair she is willing to visit and look at various neighborhoods outside the city center as well as the next door town of Cholula.


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## Haskins

UrbanMan said:


> I find interesting research trip accounts wherein visitors focus on architecture and spend time visiting attractions such as museums. These to me don't seem like the big factors that will drive whether or not a certain neighborhood or locale will be a great fit for you.


You're right. There is definitely more that I look at. I want arts, foods, festivals, music and culture. Lots of culture! Architecture is just one of many facets that calls out to me. Scenery is another one.


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## citlali

The center is the nicest place..I would not care to live there either.. Do not care for Cholula or Puebla. I like to visit but it is another place I would not live in . We have friends who live in a nice fracc with one foot in Cholula and one foot in Puebla..but the minute yu leave you find yourself in that awful traffic.. another bunch of aggresive drivers..However they have lots of things to see with nice cultural events.. I remember really enjoying a concert in one of the churches in Cholula. great musicians.. There are lots of pluses to the town but I still would not live thre. Id I was to move to a large city I probably would move to Guadalajara..


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## Haskins

Before I elaborate, let me just say that my wife absolutely fell in love with San Miguel. I on the other hand, fell in love with Guanajuato City. And since I'm the man of the house, what I say goes! So I've decided.... We're moving to San Miguel...


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## horseshoe846

We visited Puebla last year for a long weekend with some Mexican friends who were from Puebla. We visited places we would never have found on our own. Had we taken that trip before purchasing a house in Mexico we would have seriously considered Puebla. It has a little bit of everything. And if you are a young professional it may offer more opportunities than most places. 

We passed through Cholula along the way. Nice place for a pit stop but (and I guess we are all different people) I could not see us spending more than a couple hours there.


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## citlali

We go through Puebla about 4 times a year and after visiting a few times we lost interest, it is a city that never grew on us.. I am not sure why.


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## horseshoe846

citlali said:


> We go through Puebla about 4 times a year and after visiting a few times we lost interest, it is a city that never grew on us.. I am not sure why.


To each his/her own I guess. Personally - I would never chose to live in Chiapas (having lived in Guatemala). All these TripAdvisor like critiques are really a little silly - don't you think.


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## horseshoe846

horseshoe846 said:


> To each his/her own I guess. Personally - I would never chose to live in Chiapas (having lived in Guatemala). All these TripAdvisor like critiques are really a little silly - don't you think.


Edit : perhaps that did not come out quite right. I wasn't directing that at you directly - it is just that no one can tell someone (or recommend to someone) what is right for another person. 

I suspect that 95% of the people who post on sites such as this with hopes of moving to Mexico never do. And - I suspect that 20% of the people who move here move back at some point.


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## citlali

Correct, each person is different and needs to check out the places personally and see where they would live. 
I know that Chiapas was part of Guatemala at one time and therefore is moe like Central American than the other States in Mexico but I would not move to Guatemala and I movd to Chiapas so there are diffeences as well.. 

Chiapas a a difficult climate to say the least, cool to cold and very unstable in the highland and hot and humid in the lowland.. Unless you are interested in nature or in indigenous cultures living in Chiapas would be a little difficult but I love it , have many friends all over the state and can stay anywhere at the drop of hat.. yesterday I go stuck in Teopisca by a bloqueo and I had food and 3 offers to stay in Teopisca or Amatenango .. There are many expats here but not many Americans or Canadians so if you wants people from back home you are out of luck and that is exactly what I love.

I agree most people will never move to Mexico and many will not stay here either and many who come to check it out look at it from the point of view of a tourist but if you are to live in a place you need to think how you will live there, how you will get things you will need on a regular basis, how are the doctors, hospitals , transportation etc.. not what the ruins or zocalos are like because chances are that once you have gone there 4 or 5 times you will not go there very often.

I think that to pick a place you are better off thinking of what you really are like and what your needs are and then go for a place rather than come up with places out of a hat or listening to what people are recommending go there fall in love and find out that it is not what you needed..

Before we came down we made a list of what we wanted ans settled where we found it and then added a place when we could speak Spanish and had other interests.


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## circle110

Haskins said:


> Before I elaborate, let me just say that my wife absolutely fell in love with San Miguel. I on the other hand, fell in love with Guanajuato City. And since I'm the man of the house, what I say goes! So I've decided.... We're moving to San Miguel...


You should spend more time in both places. I don't know you guys so my two cents is worthless but each of those cities has a much different vibe from the other. The longer you spend, the more you pick up on it.

One thing I will say for sure is that you will get a lot more house with a better location for your money in Guanajuato. San Miguel is really feeling the housing pressure both from foreigners and from the Mexico City weekend house crowd. Not all housing is expensive in SMA but all of the really desirable locations have been driven up quite a bit. That is not the case in Guanajuato. 

You had said you were going to Queretaro but you didn't mention it so I assume it wasn't to either of your liking. But the upside there is that currently there's a huge housing glut and there are staggering deals to be had in fantastic locations. We're very happy about that!


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## citlali

San Miguel is an attractive town, I thought about it when we moved but in a place like that I would want to be in the center or close to it and we had 3 mastiffs so I wanted a garden and one of the must was not stairs as they become a pain as you get older so that took care of San Miguel in my book and Guanajuato to me was a fun place to visit but again vertical living and too claustrofobic for me , I love to visit both cities they both are very beautiful but I think if you love one you will not care for the other as much , they are very different from each other .


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## Haskins

circle110 said:


> Haskins said:
> 
> 
> 
> Before I elaborate, let me just say that my wife absolutely fell in love with San Miguel. I on the other hand, fell in love with Guanajuato City. And since I'm the man of the house, what I say goes! So I've decided.... We're moving to San Miguel...
> 
> 
> 
> You should spend more time in both places. I don't know you guys so my two cents is worthless but each of those cities has a much different vibe from the other. The longer you spend, the more you pick up on it.
> 
> One thing I will say for sure is that you will get a lot more house with a better location for your money in Guanajuato. San Miguel is really feeling the housing pressure both from foreigners and from the Mexico City weekend house crowd. Not all housing is expensive in SMA but all of the really desirable locations have been driven up quite a bit. That is not the case in Guanajuato.
> 
> You had said you were going to Queretaro but you didn't mention it so I assume it wasn't to either of your liking. But the upside there is that currently there's a huge housing glut and there are staggering deals to be had in fantastic locations. We're very happy about that!
Click to expand...

I was kidding about choosing San Miguel already. We still need to visit each town several times. And we will be in Queretaro Tuesday. In any case, we might live in all of these towns as we'll be renting. We've talked about the nomad lifestyle. We're still "young" (late 50's) so we should be able to handle a few months to a year at least in San Miguel or Guanajuato. I've been researching the medical facilities in these places, just in case. We are both in good health at the moment, thank goodness. And we can see how these both cities could improve our fitness. We're going to visit Coyoacan later this week also (not out of the picture yet!). It's just the two of us since our boys are off on their own already and we're about to retire with a nice pension each. So all these places are feasible.


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## TurtleToo

These reactions and descriptions of various towns are one of my favorite things about the forum. I love seeing a place through the eyes of someone else! Obviously everyone is different and is looking for different things. Some may want an edgy, lively, noisy urban experience of clubs and galleries and honking horns; others a quiet, peaceful, rural life replete with long nature hikes. And so on . . . What suits one person makes another leave town. But the words of one person can make a place come alive in the mind of another. We may know full well that what is being described is not for us, but enjoy another's reactions nonetheless. 

So keep those posts coming!

.


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## circle110

Haskins said:


> I was kidding about choosing San Miguel already.


I totally got that, but I must not have written in my response very well.


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## Haskins

Having never actually set foot in San Miguel, I had seen plenty of photographs of the town, it's streets, and of course, La Parroquia. But there is nothing that prepares you for actually coming face to face with the real San Miguel! When you see the Parroquia for the very first time, close up, immediately my first impression was to reach for that camera, to add to the countless images already on Facebook and Twitter, to let everyone know, "Hey y'all! Be jealous. Be very Jealous!" ? ,the carefully chosen colors of the colonial style buildings next to the churches that sprinkle el centro, the combination of these, was all it took to make my wife fall in love with San Miguel. Add to this the recent international film festival held here, the music festival, Santana in concert yesterday while at the same time folkloric dancing was taking place at the foot of La Parroquia. And later that night, a local banda played music while everyone danced in the street. Yup, she was hooked. San Miguel is in her blood. 
We toured Guanajuato City Friday and we are going back tomorrow. I'll let you know our impressions.


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## RickS

And of course there are other things that make a place desirable or not (and this too will vary depend on who one is talking to). Weather... the day(s) you visit may be perfect (or not) but like everywhere it won't be the same in another season. 

Many people rule out San Miguel (this is just an example), and maybe Guanajuato City, because it can get pretty nippy in the evenings in winter... especially Dec and Jan. But to others who, maybe, come from a northern climate and are used to really cold winters, San Miguel even at it's coldest is not cold! But stay anywhere and, over time, one's "body" acclimates to what the norm is there so those winter nights that used to not bother one, all of a sudden does.


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## circle110

RickS said:


> And of course there are other things that make a place desirable or not (and this too will vary depend on who one is talking to). Weather... the day(s) you visit may be perfect (or not) but like everywhere it won't be the same in another season.
> 
> Many people rule out San Miguel (this is just an example), and maybe Guanajuato City, because it can get pretty nippy in the evenings in winter... especially Dec and Jan. But to others who, maybe, come from a northern climate and are used to really cold winters, San Miguel even at it's coldest is not cold! But stay anywhere and, over time, one's "body" acclimates to what the norm is there so those winter nights that used to not bother one, all of a sudden does.


Yes, it can get a little nippy in the evenings there for sure. When we lived in Guanajuato we bought 2 space heaters and that was enough to make it comfortable in whatever rooms we were in. If we were in the same room we'd use just one. Guanajuato is higher elevation than San Miguel, so SMA is a bit less nippy but still can get chilly at times.

Queretaro is the lowest altitude of the 3 cities so it is the warmest of them but we will no doubt use our heaters from time to time there too.


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## TundraGreen

RickS said:


> And of course there are other things that make a place desirable or not (and this too will vary depend on who one is talking to). Weather... the day(s) you visit may be perfect (or not) but like everywhere it won't be the same in another season.
> 
> Many people rule out San Miguel (this is just an example), and maybe Guanajuato City, because it can get pretty nippy in the evenings in winter... especially Dec and Jan. But to others who, maybe, come from a northern climate and are used to really cold winters, San Miguel even at it's coldest is not cold! But stay anywhere and, over time, one's "body" acclimates to what the norm is there so those winter nights that used to not bother one, all of a sudden does.


The other difference between cold in Mexico and cold in more northern climes is that houses in the north tend to be sealed, insulated and centrally heated. The house I grew up in in Alaska stayed at 20 C (68 F) throughout the winter with external temperatures far below freezing for months. The temperature inside my house in Guadalajara often drops to 15 C (59 F) in January and February. And Guadalajara (at 1500 m) is warm compared to some of the higher cities such as San Miguel, Guanajuato, Queretaro or Mexico City (at 2000 to 2200 m). Houses in Mexico track the outside temperature much more closely than houses in the north.


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## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> The other difference between cold in Mexico and cold in more northern climes is that houses in the north tend to be sealed, insulated and centrally heated. The house I grew up in in Alaska stayed at 20 C (68 F) throughout the winter with external temperatures far below freezing for months. The temperature inside my house in Guadalajara often drops to 15 C (59 F) in January and February. And Guadalajara (at 1500 m) is warm compared to some of the higher cities such as San Miguel, Guanajuato, Queretaro or Mexico City (at 2000 to 2200 m). Houses in Mexico track the outside temperature much more closely than houses in the north.


That's why I bought myself a small space heater during my first winter of residence in Mexico City.


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## citlali

Both in Chiapas and in Ajijic we have a couple of gas heaters.. We also have fireplaces.. We have the heater on in San Cristobal as I write.. we pretty much use the heater all year round in CHiapas and about 2 or 3 months of the year in Ajijic.. We do not use them all day but in the morning and evenings and all day during cold days. We were told we did not need heat in Ajijic when we moved. we lasted two winters and then I came to my senses and I was not going to be uncomfortable because people said we did not need heat.. so now when we are cold we turn on the heaters and I am fine with the weather. The house we have in Ajijic us build for heat in the shade, lots of windows and it is a fridge in Dec and January.. it is great in April and May and fine the rest of the year but we use heat, I did not come to Mexico to be cold.


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## RickS

Regarding space heaters, 'tho... unless they are propane (and special design to not emit CO2) that means electrical. And high electrical use in Mexico means one drifts into the dreaded CFE DAC zone, never to return (or at least not until just in time for the heaters again next season!).

How do you that use electric space heaters address this problem (if it is one for you!).... a few solar panels?


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## circle110

RickS said:


> Regarding space heaters, 'tho... unless they are propane (and special design to not emit CO2) that means electrical. And high electrical use in Mexico means one drifts into the dreaded CFE DAC zone, never to return (or at least not until just in time for the heaters again next season!).
> 
> How do you that use electric space heaters address this problem (if it is one for you!).... a few solar panels?


My wife was afraid of the propane ones so we got electric.

We just run them 10 minutes or so and then shut them off. If we need another burst an hour or two later it may only need 5 minutes. We never run them at night while sleeping.
I haven't noticed a marked increase in our ridiculously low electric bill. Maybe jumping from $125 a month to $150 or something like that.


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## RickS

... as in pesos.


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## citlali

We have been using propane for 15 years to heat the house and never had a problem.. The house is so draughty and the ceilings are high and the skylights have those open spaces, I do not think co2 would affect us in those houses. We never sleep with heaters at night as we sleep with all the windows and doors open even in the winter .
Since the house is very cold in the morning gas is great..it heats the place quickly and then we turn the heaters down or off.


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## citlali

You have a 150 pesos bill with electric heaterss???


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## TundraGreen

citlali said:


> …
> The house we have in Ajijic us build for heat in the shade, lots of windows and it is a fridge in Dec and January.. it is great in April and May and fine the rest of the year but we use heat, …


That is an important point. One of the criteria I used in selecting the house I live is that almost all of the rooms face south. They get sun all day in the winter when it is cold. In the summer, the afternoon sun is to the north and they are in the shade. It's adobe which tends to even out the temperature variation between day and night and it pretty comfortable year round. A little on the cool side in January and a little on the hot side in May but comfortable the other 10 months without heating or cooling.


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## circle110

citlali said:


> You have a 150 pesos bill with electric heaterss???


Yes but we don't run them very often -- definitely not every day even in Dec/Jan and the rest of the year we'll go weeks without using them. And we only turn them on for short periods of 5-10 minutes. I think you guys run your heaters many times harder that we do ours. If we used them every day and ran them almost all day, we'd be way over the DAC limit for sure. I wouldn't have let my wife convince me of buying electric if that were the case.


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## xolo

I'm spending a lot of time where we have a house - it suits my needs by being close to my work, but it's not a place where I want to live indefinitely, too rural and too high (2600 meters).


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## GrayGeek

Have you considered Guadalajara or Lake Chapala area ?


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## Haskins

GrayGeek said:


> Have you considered Guadalajara or Lake Chapala area ?


Yes, we've considered Guadalajara. It's a lovely city. And I have a brother who lives there. Lake Chapala/Ajijic didn't quite agree with us.


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## Haskins

We finally visited Queretaro. The center is indeed beautiful, with lovely churches close by. The aqueducts are amazing! The rest of the city is a modern wonder! And my wife liked the American stores that were readily available there.


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## Haskins

We returned to Coyoacan today for another look around since we had a long layover. After several near heart attacks along the road, I think we might be scratching Mexico City off our list. I love the center of Coyoacan (Colonia del Carmen area), but going anywhere else requires major driving skills, or at least a blind fold while someone else drives, so as not to see all the near misses!!


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## TundraGreen

[soapbox]
In the US, and maybe in Canada, it is hard to find a place to live conveniently without depending on a car for many of your daily needs. This is not (yet) true in Mexico. There are lots of small towns, and neighborhoods in larger cities where everything needed for daily life can be found within a few minutes walk. Mercados exist in every town and neighborhood for food and, nearby, there are hole-in-the-wall shops with most everything one needs, haircuts, stationary, etc. By choosing where you live you can walk for all routine needs and save the car for occasional longer trips, or dispense with the car entirely and use buses for longer trips. But choosing where you live is critical. If reducing car usage is a priority, then you can't live in a large fraccionamiento (gated community) isolated from everything, nor in a suburb where, like the US, everyone drives to a mall for shopping. However, there are other choices and if you plan ahead, the traffic congestion can be something that you see as you walk to the mercado rather than something you sit in as you drive to a mall.
[/soapbox]


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## horseshoe846

Haskins said:


> We returned to Coyoacan today for another look around since we had a long layover. After several near heart attacks along the road, I think we might be scratching Mexico City off our list. I love the center of Coyoacan (Colonia del Carmen area), but going anywhere else requires major driving skills, or at least a blind fold while someone else drives, so as not to see all the near misses!!


Sometimes (when possible) you need to take the time of day into account when travelling. Or even the day itself. When we drive into Mexico City we like to go in on a Saturday. When we go in on a weekday we take the executive bus in and then either a taxi or the metro to get to our destination. In Coyoacan I believe the metro bus might makes some sense. We like the metro bus. Our town has a great local bus company which has smallish (perhaps 12 passenger buses) which target specific places in Mexico City. There is one that goes directly to the Angel (for US Embassy). Another goes to the Pedregal Galarias mall. 

In our town - it is sometimes best to avoid travel between say 8AM and 10AM. It is a much more pleasant experience. Most things don't open until 10 or 11AM anyway. But to be honest - we see remarkably few traffic accidents. For me - the scariest drivers are the mother chicks driving their chick-lings to school in the morning. They can be very aggressive.


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## xolo

I wouldn't choose Mexico City for the traffic and air pollution. I don't even want to walk in that jelly jam nor cram myself into the metro.

I also do not care for the Chapala area. Granted, I've only been there once for a few days, but it seemed pretty quiet. Maybe someone can enlighten me as to why it is such a delightful place?


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## Isla Verde

xolo said:


> I wouldn't choose Mexico City for the traffic and air pollution. I don't even want to walk in that jelly jam nor cram myself into the metro.
> 
> I also do not care for the Chapala area. Granted, I've only been there once for a few days, but it seemed pretty quiet. Maybe someone can enlighten me as to why it is such a delightful place?


I live in Mexico City and am retired, so I don't have to deal with the traffic during rush hours. When I need to travel out of my neighborhood, I usually take a comfortable city bus and occasionally, the subway, which is usually all right outside of the busiest times of the day.

A few years ago I spent a week in Chapala/Ajijic and had a pleasant time. I enjoyed the slower pace and relative quiet of the area, but I would get bored if I lived there permanently. On the other hand, there are those expats who like quiet places and have moved to this area for precisely that reason. _¡A cada quien lo suyo !_


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## xolo

I was working at UNAM and commuting up to the _Archivo General de la Nación_, it was an unpleasant cross-city trek. I'm sure that would not be a typical commute pattern for a retired person.

My last choice would be with a bunch of retirees from up North, but hey, maybe I would like it.


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## Isla Verde

xolo said:


> I was working at UNAM and commuting up to the _Archivo General de la Nación_, it was an unpleasant cross-city trek. I'm sure that would not be a typical commute pattern for a retired person.
> 
> My last choice would be with a bunch of retirees from up North, but hey, maybe I would like it.


Not a pleasant way to spend your days. How often did you have to shlep to the AGN ? There are lots of interesting cultural events that take place at the UNAM, but I rarely go there because it's so far away from where I live.

It would be my last choice too, and I am a retiree (mostly) from NOB.


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## Ethunhunt75

Hi I live in zambia and currently looking for choosing the option between Mexico and Lima,Peru .
Im quite confused where should I migrate with my family cause I'm looking at to start business as well once I move now two factors are more important for 1. Is my children school I have to look for a reasonable international school where I would be able to sustain to pay school fees and second Im looking for to start business.

I would be highly appreciate if some of the expectriates would give me the right and best information.
Thanks in advance.


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## citlali

Why on earth Lima? The food is great there but that is about it.. one of my least favorite city, on the other hand I like Mexico City..


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## Isla Verde

citlali said:


> Why on earth Lima? The food is great there but that is about it.. one of my least favorite city, on the other hand I like Mexico City..


What is it about Lima that you don't like?


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## citlali

Funny I just do not get bored in many places.. I always have something I want to do and I usually have more thing to do than time.. I do not get bored in Ajijic and I do not socialize with expats while there and I do not get bored in an Cristóbal de las Casas either and I do not socialized with expats here either.
I enjoy staying small villages just as much as I enjoy myself in a large city-


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## citlali

Isla verde, just about everything.. The center has attractive buildings..then it is miles of modern non descript buildings that are in the haze or fog most of the time...It does not have the large amounts f museum Mexico City does, nor the variety of museums. People are more reserved not as friendly as in Mexico city. You do not feel the energy there you have in Mexico city. The best areas do not hold a candle to the best areas in Mexico city.
I went there to eat and was not disappointed but I could not wait to get to get out of there once I saw what I wanted to see.. 
Of curse the OP may look at it differently as he or she want international schools and a place to start a business..


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## Ethunhunt75

Does anybody recommends a good Immigration lawyer or consultants help people to migrate to Mexico City.
Thanks in advance,


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## lagoloo

Here I am in the Lake Chapala area living in the mecca of "a bunch of NOB retirees". I, too, am a NOB expat, of course. 

As I read this thread, I found myself asking what it is that people WANT from a city or town in the first place? Cultural events? Museums? Restaurants? Like minded people? That's the first essential sorting job.

I note that many NOB expats seem to have an allergic response to the presence of "too many" other expats. Why? Don't they know how to avoid hanging out with people who bore or annoy them and limit their social contact to people with whom they have common interests? I don't have many friends, but I don't need many. I have interests that occupy my time and I feel sorry for anyone who decides to "retire" and has nothing planned to fill their days beyond their electronic buddy, the TV.

I grew up and lived most of my life in very large cities. They have much to offer, but unfortunately, most of them are too polluted and traffic choked for my taste. Living near a large lake where I can walk along the shore and watch the birds is a valuable advantage to living here. Not having to drive everywhere has its merits. When I need a big city "fix", Guadalajara is less than an hour away.

IMO, the most important consideration about picking a place to live is knowing what you want and need and whether a place can satisfy. You usually can't know the answer in a couple of days anywhere. I think it takes at least a month or so. Thus, the common advice of RENT DON'T BUY for at least six months. 

One example of making quick judgments that stands out in my mind is the blogger from SMA who came to Ajijic during two rainy days, stayed in a cheapo hotel, ate at a well known "****** food" restaurant and went to the Lake Chapala Society to interview "residents". When she wrote her impression, it was that the area is filled with "right wing WWII retirees" and had lousy food and weather.

Take your time. Moving around from place to place looking for a good fit is a real PITA.


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## citlali

I ould think that some people want to move to Mexico to get to know the Mexican culture rather than the US or Canadian retiree culture in Mexico hence the no expats or few expats requirement.. Also people think that if there are many expats the prices are hire.. and many underestimate the value of speaking Spanish or how fast they will learn Spanish..Many people who do not speak the language and have not lived abroad do not realize that a network of people from the same culture is pretty important to most people. 
On the other hand a few people enjoy the isolation or the mingling in another culture..

I once met an expat in San Cristobal who stopped me on the street and asked me if I spoke English. This woman was going to Spanish classes, living with Mexicans and was going crazy , she said because she did not know anyone who could have a conversation with her in English
No need to say she did not last much time in Chiapas..she went on to Oaxaca and then back to the States.


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## citlali

The OP is asking for help to get into Mexico and being from Zaire I do not think she or he will have problems with too many expats from there.. but I have to say I would not know where to start if I were in her or his shoes.. You have to start with the Mexican consulate from the country of origin so here you go: " Does Mexico have an embassy or consulate in Zaire ? Or what is the closest place with a consulate to ask questions from and get paperwork started..."


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## citlali

OP sorry I misread your post you are not from Zaire but from Zambia.. so the question is the same, " have you checked with the nearest Mexican embassy ? That would be the place to start.. Then once you know the requirements you can see if you can handle it by yourself or need help. Do you know anyone from Zambia who lives in Mexico? I would think that would be the best way to go to get the information. 
Hopefully someone here can get you a name in Mexico City...Good luck to you.


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## Ethunhunt75

Hi thanks for your advise, highly appreciated.


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## citlali

I googled SRE (Ministry of foreign affairs ) Mexico Zambia and it looks like there is no Mexican embassy or consulate in Zambia.. so that would complicate things.. They advise Mexicans to speak with the Embassy or consulate in Ethiopia so you may want to talk to them.. You may also want to try them in South Africa as well.. they may be able to tell you where to start.. if you have not already done so.


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## TundraGreen

citlali said:


> I googled SRE (Ministry of foreign affairs ) Mexico Zambia and it looks like there is no Mexican embassy or consulate in Zambia.. so that would complicate things.. They advise Mexicans to speak with the Embassy or consulate in Ethiopia so you may want to talk to them.. You may also want to try them in South Africa as well.. they may be able to tell you where to start.. if you have not already done so.


It looks like Kenya or South Africa might be the closest. Maybe a phone call would help for a start. The options are:
Algeria - Algiers (Embassy)
Egypt - Cairo (Embassy)
Ethiopia - Addis Ababa (Embassy)
Ghana - Accra (Embassy)
Kenya - Nairobi (Embassy)
Morocco - Rabat (Embassy), Casablanca (Trade office)
Nigeria - Abuja (Embassy)
South Africa - Pretoria (Embassy)


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## Haskins

What parameters am I looking for in my ideal of a place to retire? Affordability, colonial and/or natural scenery, mild to cool climate (or at least milder than the 100 plus degree weather we have in South Texas), walkability (hills are okay), varied social and cultural activities. English speaking is not necessary since my wife and I are both fluent in Spanish. Having been born in Monterrey, and growing up near the border in South Texas, I'm already accustomed with Mexican culture. With these parameters in mind, we are looking at renting either in San Miguel de Allende, Guanajuato, or Coyoacan. Or perhaps we will eventually live in all three places!


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## TundraGreen

Haskins said:


> What parameters am I looking for in my ideal of a place to retire? Affordability, colonial and/or natural scenery, mild to cool climate (or at least milder than the 100 plus degree weather we have in South Texas), walkability (hills are okay), varied social and cultural activities. English speaking is not necessary since my wife and I are both fluent in Spanish. Having been born in Monterrey, and growing up near the border in South Texas, I'm already accustomed with Mexican culture. With these parameters in mind, we are looking at renting either in San Miguel de Allende, Guanajuato, or Coyoacan. Or perhaps we will eventually live in all three places!


The proximity of Coyoacan to UNAM (University...Mexico) would be a big plus for me.


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## lagoloo

San Miguel has much of what you seek, but "affordabilty" could be a problem. However, if you don't need to live in Centro, some of the hills surrounding SMA have fairly reasonable price tags for renting or buying. I lived in San Rafael barrio for several years. Good views; nice neighbors.


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## Haskins

lagoloo said:


> San Miguel has much of what you seek, but "affordabilty" could be a problem. However, if you don't need to live in Centro, some of the hills surrounding SMA have fairly reasonable price tags for renting or buying. I lived in San Rafael barrio for several years. Good views; nice neighbors.


All three towns should be relatively affordable to us. Granted, there are more homes in San Miguel that would be unaffordable, but there are still plenty of 2 bedroom/2 bathroom homes that we could afford to rent there.


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## circle110

Haskins said:


> All three towns should be relatively affordable to us. Granted, there are more homes in San Miguel that would be unaffordable, but there are still plenty of 2 bedroom/2 bathroom homes that we could afford to rent there.


I don't know where in Coyoacán you can find affordable. I was just searching rental prices yesterday and when I put in the range of $8,500 - $12,000 pesos per month in Queretaro I got 286 results, all of them very nice looking homes (we had seen several of them in person last week). In much of the city $15,000 gets you a glorious 4-5 bedroom with huge gardens and patios. 

I then changed the search location to Coyoacán and got only 6 results, all of them dumpy, dirty looking places way out on the fringes of the Delegación. Then I removed the upper filter on price to see everything listed and ran the search again. Most of the places I would live in were bare minimum $30,000 a month and went straight up from there... out of my league. A $40,000 a month house in Coyoacán is equal to an $11,000 house in Queretaro. Guess where we are moving! Guanajuato has prices similar to Queretaro but seems to be maybe 15% lower in general.

San Miguel does has several neighborhoods that have reasonable prices. They are in non-expat neighborhoods, but they are nice houses and for Monterrey natives with fluent Spanish you would fit right in.


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## lagoloo

My esposo and I were among the very few NOB expats in that SMA barrio and our Spanish was very limited. 

The neigborhood parties were fairly frequent, but they shut down by around 10 pm since everyone needed to get up to early for work. 

The weekly "house tours" were enjoyable, and the Lions Club sponsored some great bus trips all over Mexico at reasonable prices.
Lots of cultural events were staged at the local concert hall by various visiting performers.

We enjoyed SMA and would have stayed, but needed to move for health reasons. I don't know if we'd still like it as well, since it's become a victim of its own popularity and is congested with visitors.


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## Haskins

Keeping our roots as shallow as possible in any one place we choose (renting) will allow us to perhaps live for a while in all three towns (and perhaps others!). If we find ourselves nostalgic for one particular town, we can always move back, settle in, and bury our roots deep. Wherever we end up, the other places will only be a bus ride or two away.


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## horseshoe846

Haskins said:


> Keeping our roots as shallow as possible in any one place we choose (renting) will allow us to perhaps live for a while in all three towns (and perhaps others!). If we find ourselves nostalgic for one particular town, we can always move back, settle in, and bury our roots deep. Wherever we end up, the other places will only be a bus ride or two away.


We just returned from a touristy trip to Guanajuato. Seemed like Taxco's big brother. It is a nice place - very young (which was nice, lots of young people holding hands) - didn't see much living areas outside the centro. We are in good shape but the steep hills can wear on a person - Lots of traffic (we parked the car on arrival). First time - in 5 years we have gotten on one of those 'local' buses (5 pesos each) except for the metro bus in DF - one of my scariest moments in Mexico as the bus driver actually accelerated down a steep hill around sharp curves - I have no idea what his rush was. 

For us - if you have seen one colonial centro you have seen them all. We will stick with the one we live near. We love Mexico City - but I don't think we are going to head north of Mexico City again (at least in the car) - I kind of felt 40-50 years younger driving in Newark NJ - too many trucks etc. 

My (free) advice - look South of Mexico City - it is a lot more laid back.

I should add that Guanajuato felt like a very safe place - and we ate very well.


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## ojosazules11

horseshoe846 said:


> We just returned from a touristy trip to Guanajuato. Seemed like Taxco's big brother. It is a nice place - very young (which was nice, lots of young people holding hands) - didn't see much living areas outside the centro. We are in good shape but the steep hills can wear on a person - Lots of traffic (we parked the car on arrival). First time - in 5 years we have gotten on one of those 'local' buses (5 pesos each) except for the metro bus in DF - one of my scariest moments in Mexico as the bus driver actually accelerated down a steep hill around sharp curves - I have no idea what his rush was.
> 
> For us - if you have seen one colonial centro you have seen them all. We will stick with the one we live near. We love Mexico City - but I don't think we are going to head north of Mexico City again (at least in the car) - I kind of felt 40-50 years younger driving in Newark NJ - too many trucks etc.
> 
> My (free) advice - look South of Mexico City - it is a lot more laid back.
> 
> I should add that Guanajuato felt like a very safe place - and we ate very well.


A cousin of mine and his partner are currently in Guanajuato, looking at a possible move there (from the US) a few years down the road. Based on the photos they are posting on Facebook, it looks like a beautiful city with a fun vibe. Maybe they are just really good photographers, but I'm hoping they do move there, so I have someone to visit!!


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## Haskins

ojosazules11 said:


> A cousin of mine and his partner are currently in Guanajuato, looking at a possible move there (from the US) a few years down the road. Based on the photos they are posting on Facebook, it looks like a beautiful city with a fun vibe. Maybe they are just really good photographers, but I'm hoping they do move there, so I have someone to visit!!


Well, if your cousin doesn't end up in Guanajuato and we do, you're welcome to come visit, and that goes for all of y'all, expatforum friends!
Donde quiera que viva yo, allí tendrán su casa.


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## Isla Verde

Haskins said:


> Well, if your cousin doesn't end up in Guanajuato and we do, you're welcome to come visit, and that goes for all of y'all, expatforum friends!
> Donde quiera que viva yo, allí tendrán su casa.


A very generous offer!


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## Isla Verde

ojosazules11 said:


> A cousin of mine and his partner are currently in Guanajuato, looking at a possible move there (from the US) a few years down the road. Based on the photos they are posting on Facebook, it looks like a beautiful city with a fun vibe. Maybe they are just really good photographers, but I'm hoping they do move there, so I have someone to visit!!


Guanajuato has a beautiful colonial-era core, lots of hills, the University of Guanajuato, and mummies! Museo de las Momias de Guanajuato - Inicio


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## costaricamex

Yeah and trying to catch a bus down below in the tunnels is fun too.


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## lagoloo

The idea of digging up people and putting them on display was such a turn off, I skipped the "mummy museum". Barbaric, IMO.
Other than that, it's a very interesting town. lol.


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## horseshoe846

lagoloo said:


> The idea of digging up people whose cemetery bills were unpaid and putting them on display was such a turn off, I skipped the "mummy museum". Barbaric, IMO.
> Other than that, it's a very interesting town. lol.


We visited the mummy museum. I had not researched it beforehand. We walked there from the city center - 20-30 minutes and up a rather steep hill. The guided tour was perhaps 15 minutes long and that included an intro movie. You are correct. The mummies were discovered because they were exhumed (in bulk) and their bodies were more or less preserved (more like very shriveled). This is attributed to the climate. But I asked myself - if bodies were exhumed in mass in any other similar climates throughout Mexico - just how many mummy museums would there be ?

We also visited the Valencia Mine. There my wife and I were a tour group of 2. We descended down a very steep spiral-like ladder of stones perhaps 60-70 meters holding on to a rope guide-rail. It was another 15 minute guided tour. As I said earlier - we are in decent shape - but we had to catch our breath on the trip up the steps. That mine is still worked today - but I don't think it is very profitable - and is automated. But - to think that at some point in the past workers carried rock up those steps manually - that was a tough job.


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## Isla Verde

lagoloo said:


> The idea of digging up people and putting them on display was such a turn off, I skipped the "mummy museum". Barbaric, IMO.
> Other than that, it's a very interesting town. lol.


The one time I visited Guanajuato, I did go to the mummy museum, which I found rather creepy. I would imagine it appeals to the Mexican sense of the macabre.


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## horseshoe846

Isla Verde said:


> The one time I visited Guanajuato, I did go to the mummy museum, which I found rather creepy. I would imagine it appeals to the Mexican sense of the macabre.


In a small way it reminded me of someplace I visited in Guatemala years ago (not sure if it was Antigua or Atitlan) where a volcano erupted centuries ago and people were encased in lava (alive). They were left in place - sitting on the sidewalks hugging their knees to their chests. (As I remember it).


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## ojosazules11

Haskins said:


> Well, if your cousin doesn't end up in Guanajuato and we do, you're welcome to come visit, and that goes for all of y'all, expatforum friends!
> Donde quiera que viva yo, allí tendrán su casa.


Thank you, Haskins! It will be fun to follow your adventures in different parts of Mexico and see where you find the best fit - or maybe, like you say, you'll be nomadic for awhile.


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## circle110

horseshoe846 said:


> For us - if you have seen one colonial centro you have seen them all.


That is interesting because I find them all fascinatingly unique and very representative of the cultural vibe of that particular city. I'm talking only about cities, not the pueblos with their zocalos in front of the churches; those do look the same almost everywhere.

Then again, I feel the same way you feel about colonial centros about beaches -- they all look exactly the same to me: Sun, sand, water.


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## Isla Verde

circle110 said:


> That is interesting because I find them all fascinatingly unique and very representative of the cultural vibe of that particular city. I'm talking only about cities, not the pueblos with their zocalos in front of the churches; those do look the same almost everywhere.
> 
> Then again, I feel the same way you feel about colonial centros about beaches -- they all look exactly the same to me: Sun, sand, water.


I share your feelings about beaches, circle110. 

While it's true that the historic centers of small pueblos tend to have similar layouts, when you get into the specifics of their architecture, they have unique personalities.


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## Haskins

circle110 said:


> That is interesting because I find them all fascinatingly unique and very representative of the cultural vibe of that particular city. I'm talking only about cities, not the pueblos with their zocalos in front of the churches; those do look the same almost everywhere.
> 
> Then again, I feel the same way you feel about colonial centros about beaches -- they all look exactly the same to me: Sun, sand, water.


 I also prefer the inland colonial cities and towns over the beaches. But that's my preference. I have a colleague who is about to move to Tulum. She loves the beaches and jungles down there. Her idea of Mexico is a little different than mine. 

As far as the historical cultural centros, hey, there is only one Parroquia de San Miguel Arcangel in Mexico. San Miguel would not be San Miguel without it. 
The City of Guanajuato's vividly colored basilica near the architecturally unique Universidad de Guanajuato, viewed in the foreground below with the multicolored mountainside homes behind and all around. 

The small town feel of Colonia del Carmen in Coyoacan, so green, so many parks and so much history, from Hernan Cortez, to Frida Khalo, Diego Rivera, Leon Trotsky, and my favorites, Gabriel Garcia Marquez and Octavio Paz. To live where these amazing people walked the streets. How often did Octavio Paz stop for a drink at El Jarocho Cafe? 

I know there are so many other uniquely beautiful places in Mexico. Who knows, perhaps we'll try to live in all of them!


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## circle110

Isla Verde said:


> While it's true that the historic centers of small pueblos tend to have similar layouts, when you get into the specifics of their architecture, they have unique personalities.


That's true. The differences are much more notable for me in the bigger cities, though.

Morelia looks nothing like Guanajuato, which looks nothing like Queretaro, which looks nothing like Puebla, which looks nothing like Oaxaca, etcetera.

I have yet to visit Aguacalientes nor Zacatecas to soak in their vibes. I hope to before too long.


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## TundraGreen

circle110 said:


> That's true. The differences are much more notable for me in the bigger cities, though.
> 
> Morelia looks nothing like Guanajuato, which looks nothing like Queretaro, which looks nothing like Puebla, which looks nothing like Oaxaca, etcetera.
> 
> I have yet to visit Aguacalientes nor Zacatecas to soak in their vibes. I hope to before too long.


They look nothing like Guanajuato or Queretaro or Morelia.


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## circle110

TundraGreen said:


> They look nothing like Guanajuato or Queretaro or Morelia.


That makes me all the more motivated to go see them!


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## TurtleToo

TundraGreen said:


> They look nothing like Guanajuato or Queretaro or Morelia.


Vive la différence!

(Oops! Wrong language!) 

.


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## citlali

The layout of colonial cities are similar in many cities but that is about it, each center is very different and has its own personality that is what makes colonial cities fun to discover whether tropical like Merida or Campeche or indígenas like Pátzcuaro or San Cristóbal or very Spanish like Morelia or Puebla , nothing boring about them.

As far as the beach I think the sea or ocean are beautiful to look at for a while but then what.. Same with the jungle, hot and humid and buggy ..a place to visit for a short very short while..


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## TundraGreen

I agree about beaches. I like being out on the ocean, and I like to see the surf on a beach once in awhile and watch the sun set over the water, but once in awhile is enough. The most beautiful places are the deserts and the high mountains above timberline where there are endless views.


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## horseshoe846

TundraGreen said:


> I agree about beaches. I like being out on the ocean, and I like to see the surf on a beach once in awhile and watch the sun set over the water, but once in awhile is enough. The most beautiful places are the deserts and the high mountains above timberline where there are endless views.


It was a sad day that we had to sell our boat because we were moving to Mexico. We normally got in four dives a week - weather permitting. For 15+ years we got up every morning at 5AM so we could walk on the beach for an hour before work and watch the sun rise. 

We visited Mexico many times over the years trying to pick our ultimate destination. We went up and down Q. Roo and most of the west coast. Yet - when we sat down with paper and pen to draw up the pros and cons we ended up in the mountains - but some of those reasons have evolved since our moving here and at some point I'd like to get back to the beach.


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## Haskins

horseshoe846 said:


> It was a sad day that we had to sell our boat because we were moving to Mexico. We normally got in four dives a week - weather permitting. For 15+ years we got up every morning at 5AM so we could walk on the beach for an hour before work and watch the sun rise.
> 
> We visited Mexico many times over the years trying to pick our ultimate destination. We went up and down Q. Roo and most of the west coast. Yet - when we sat down with paper and pen to draw up the pros and cons we ended up in the mountains - but some of those reasons have evolved since our moving here and at some point I'd like to get back to the beach.


She hears him say "Brandy, you're a fine girl" (you're a fine girl)
"What a good wife you would be" (such a fine girl)
"But my life, my lover, my lady is the sea"

I can appreciate how the sea calls upon some folk. I hope you get back to the beach.:thumb:


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## lagoloo

I hear you, having living nearly all my life near the CA coast. We considered moving to one of the beach towns here until we heard about the heat and humidity most of the year, so moved to the mountains.
When we get the urge, we head for the beach a few hour away, but unless it's January, we're ready to head home after very few days.
Every body is different!
Good luck on finding a good "fit".


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## citlali

We were in Juchitán and Tehuantepec this week and the heat was 38 and 39 and the humidity was bad.. no thanks But we really enjoyed the seafood at tequita in Juchitan!


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## horseshoe846

Please don't get me wrong - we live in a beautiful place.

As I write this I am sitting here listening to a Mariachi band playing at a neighbor's party. We do not know them all that well. They are Mexican and spend half their time here and half in Canada, 

I enjoy this until they start shooting off the cohetes - or if the amplify the sound. But at the moment this is like very nice free music - although the food roasting smells very very good and I wish we had been invited.


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## Haskins

These views of Guanajuato though... ❤


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## TurtleToo

Haskins said:


> These views of Guanajuato though... ❤


It only makes sense to settle in Guanajuato first, while you are still young and agile enough to climb all those stairs! You should save the others for the time when a town full of stairs loses its appeal. Surely your wife will agree that reason and logic absolutely require you to live in Guanajuato! 

.


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## citlali

Also views are overrated.. We had a magnificent view of the Bay Bridge in San Francisco and in another place we were right on a cliff overlooking the ocean, after a while you do not see the view any longer.. We always had a view when we worked. , when we retired we decided we wanted something flat with a nice big garden and to us the flat no stairs and a beautiful garden is way better than a view where you have to go up and down on hills..
Experience Guanajuato and the views if it is new to you , just enjoy it and see how long you enjoy it , you can always move to a different environment later.


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## lagoloo

Amen to that. It's amazing how a view becomes less and less important after you live with it for a while. However, nobody believes that until they experience it for themselves. There is a lot to be said for a garden and no stairs. (grin). I'd advise getting that view while you're lusting for it until you can let it go in preference for other factors.
Once I lived in a crummy old apartment with a creaky elevator in the hall in San Francisco. The view was from a window seat overlooking the bay and the Golden Gate Bridge. That view is indelibly etched into my mind....but the rest of the situation, including the rats, was easy to leave behind!


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## horseshoe846

Oh I don't know. We spent 2+ years in Austin and lived on the top of a mountain (hill) that looked down at the Colorado River. On the other side of the river was Michael Dell. Only difference was he was on his own mountain and we shared our hill with lots of people.

We spent 25+ years in South Florida. Last 15 or so we lived on an ocean access canal with a boat in the backyard (in the water). We had a view of the canal (just off the Intracoastal) - which was pretty nice.

Here in Mexico we have a jaw-dropping view. We can see perhaps 30 miles away. Our lot/house is level. During the day it is an interesting view. When people come for the first time they always spend some time trying to locate where they live. The view at night is incredible. 4+ years later I still have not grown tired of the view.


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## Haskins

My wife now sees the practicality of moving to Guanajuato first. While we'll be at our "youngest" retirement age and we can still do the callejon steps up and down the hills. Not to mention, Guanajuato is probably the most affordable of the cities we've been looking at. San Miguel will still be a short drive away. We can visit San Miguel easily for many of the activities that go on there. Scenery is important to us, and I'm sure we'll eventually take the sites for granted. But as long as we find ourselves involved with our community and our interests and we lead fulfilling lives there, we'll remain. I do see us living in San Miguel and in Coyoacan at some point though.


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## circle110

Haskins said:


> My wife now sees the practicality of moving to Guanajuato first. While we'll be at our "youngest" retirement age and we can still do the callejon steps up and down the hills. Not to mention, Guanajuato is probably the most affordable of the cities we've been looking at. San Miguel will still be a short drive away. We can visit San Miguel easily for many of the activities that go on there. Scenery is important to us, and I'm sure we'll eventually take the sites for granted. But as long as we find ourselves involved with our community and our interests and we lead fulfilling lives there, we'll remain. I do see us living in San Miguel and in Coyoacan at some point though.


One comment about the drive to San Miguel from Guanajuato. It is an hour's drive on a somewhat treacherous two lane road that curves through the mountains. I would recommend never doing the trip in the dark. It is a fine day trip if you go in the morning and return to Guanajuato before dark., but if the activity you are interested in is at night, I would spend the night in SMA and drive back the next day. We did this several times and it makes a nice 2 day trip.

Another tip: don't ignore Dolores Hidalgo (just under an hour away). It is a nice town with a pleasant, if maybe slightly boring, centro and if you are at all interested in Talavera pottery, it is heaven. We now have a large Talavera collection because we couldn't resist every time we visited!


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## Haskins

We love Talavera and The town of Dolores Hidalgo! The first time we drove into Guanajuato we took that road. Never again, unfortunately! My son got car sick and my wife almost vowed not to move to Guanajuato City if that was the only road in! I loved it though! Very scenic route. Fortunately for my family there was another more leisure route between San Miguel and Guanajuato. But hey! I'll take staying in San Miguel any day!


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## CasaColibri

Would like to know more about what you're looking for in a place to live. I've lived in Guanajuato City for 20 years and love it here. I'm about to retire from my university position and I plan to stay right here! P.S. I agree with you that, while the drive up through the mountains is beautiful, it's best done in broad daylight. The other route to SMA from Guanajuato is a pretty easy drive. I usually go to SMA through the mountains and return via the flatlands.


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## circle110

When you say the other drive through the flatlands - are you talking about taking 51 down to the 45D cuota and then west?


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## Haskins

CasaColibri said:


> Would like to know more about what you're looking for in a place to live. I've lived in Guanajuato City for 20 years and love it here. I'm about to retire from my university position and I plan to stay right here! P.S. I agree with you that, while the drive up through the mountains is beautiful, it's best done in broad daylight. The other route to SMA from Guanajuato is a pretty easy drive. I usually go to SMA through the mountains and return via the flatlands.


I initially was looking at either Valenciana or Presa de la Olla (my favorite), but my wife insists on looking for a place near downtown, somewhere along a callejon between the bottom and the Panoramica, a 2-3 bedroom, 1-2 bathroom rental.


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## Haskins

circle110 said:


> When you say the other drive through the flatlands - are you talking about taking 51 down to the 45D cuota and then west?


From San Miguel, it's the road to Cieneguita. Keep going west and it will merge with 67 which takes you into the south side of Guanajuato.


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## CasaColibri

ummm. I THINK it's 67. Sorry, I just go there following the road sign directions ( I know, sounds kinda DUH) Let's see, coming FROM SMA, there's a roundabout with a Commercial Mexicana (Mega) supermarket. You head out of town that way, pass by the SMA reservoir. Road signs indicate Guanajuato. It brings you into Gto. on the side of town opposite the Dolores Hidalgo route. It's not a toll road


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## CasaColibri

I used to live downtown, but didn't like the noise and bus fumes, so I moved up into the hills a bit. I live on the next ridge over from Valenciana and love it up here. It's about a 20 minute drive into the centro. I like that I can go there when I want to socialize more, but don't have to live there wishing to escape. Downtown parking isn't always easy, but the city has a good bus system. Have several friends who like the Marfil area, as well. It's accessible, has parking, on the bus routes, but not right in the thick of things in the centro. Same with Valenciana. Callejon places not my favorite, due to the "schleppage" factor and the overall cheek-to-jowl crowding. Not to alarm you - there's not much crime in Guanajuato, but have heard about tourists being mugged in the callejons between the Panoramica and centro. Police patrol the touristy areas pretty well, but I would keep a sharp eye, especially at night.


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## circle110

That is the road I was talking about when I said I wouldn't drive it at night. It isn't mountainous in the up and down sense, but there are very few straight stretches on it and there a couple of "don't look down" cliff hanger stretches. Combining that with the Mexicans' penchant for highway passing on blind curves makes me not want to risk it at night. It even makes me slightly nervous in the daytime and I am not a nervous driver by any means.

The other route we are talking about is the one that passes by Dolores Hidalgo and those roads between Dolores and Valenciana are both up and down and curvaceous. I would not drive that one at night either -- I have had too many surprise encounters with random cattle standing in the middle of the road as I round a hairpin curve. Besides, at night you miss all the beautiful views!


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## circle110

We lived our first few years on the edge of centro up near the Panoramica but we decided to move out to Marfil and were glad that we did. Life was easier living there in so many ways. 
We still went into the centro at least once a week to hang out with our artist friends in the Jardín, eat out and enjoy the ambiance. It was a short trip into town and we had a secret free parking place to boot.


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## CasaColibri

Circle110, Why did you move away from Gto. if I may ask that?


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## circle110

CasaColibri said:


> Circle110, Why did you move away from Gto. if I may ask that?


You certainly may ask, and it is a good question.

We had to move to Chicago for a couple years because I had an ill family member. When it was time to move back to Mexico, we decided Querétaro was a better option for us both for two and a half reasons:

1. It is 90+ minutes closer to CDMX where my wife's family lives. That is very important.
2. It is a bigger city with all the amenities that brings, plus its size offers more varied options for me as a musician. I mean, how many times can one play the Gene Byron and The Iconográfico? In any case, I still have all my friends and contacts in Gto. so I can continue to do things there even though I don't live there. I did get to play in the Cervantino, which was very cool, but that is only once a year, so not a reason to have to live in Gto. year round. 
(However... it never did come to pass that I played in the Teatro Juárez. That is one thing that would make me make a trip back in a heartbeat, if I can cause that to happen one way or the other!) 
And I can get to San Miguel from Qro. in 40 minutes on mostly superhighway, which is nice since there are quite a few musical activities there as well.

2.5. the other 1/2 reason: it is a slightly shorter drive up to Texas to see family on my side. Just over an hour less.

We really love Guanajuato though. We still own a 1000 sq. meter property just above the Panorámica near La Calzada de Guadalupe and we can't decide whether to sell it or else keep it and maybe put a small place on it to use as our Guanajuato pad. The property has a view to take your breath away. Time will tell.


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## 1happykamper

circle110 said:


> I don't know where in Coyoacán you can find affordable. I was just searching rental prices yesterday and when I put in the range of $8,500 - $12,000 pesos per month in Queretaro I got 286 results, all of them very nice looking homes (we had seen several of them in person last week). In much of the city $15,000 gets you a glorious 4-5 bedroom with huge gardens and patios.
> 
> I then changed the search location to Coyoacán and got only 6 results, all of them dumpy, dirty looking places way out on the fringes of the Delegación. Then I removed the upper filter on price to see everything listed and ran the search again. Most of the places I would live in were bare minimum $30,000 a month and went straight up from there... out of my league. A $40,000 a month house in Coyoacán is equal to an $11,000 house in Queretaro. Guess where we are moving! Guanajuato has prices similar to Queretaro but seems to be maybe 15% lower in general.
> 
> San Miguel does has several neighborhoods that have reasonable prices. They are in non-expat neighborhoods, but they are nice houses and for Monterrey natives with fluent Spanish you would fit right in.


Which search engine did you use haskins? 

BTW.. In my 5 years as a member here this is one of the VERY BEST threads I have read.


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## circle110

1happykamper said:


> Which search engine did you use haskins?
> 
> BTW.. In my 5 years as a member here this is one of the VERY BEST threads I have read.


This was my post you quoted, so maybe you are asking me which engines I used?

If you are, here are the ones we used:
vivanuncios.com '
segundamano.com
metroscubicos.com

Each has its pros and cons. Many houses appeared in all three listings. We also drove around the areas we liked and wrote down phone numbers on "for rent" signs.


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## 1happykamper

circle110 said:


> This was my post you quoted, so maybe you are asking me which engines I used?
> 
> If you are, here are the ones we used:
> vivanuncios.com '
> segundamano.com
> metroscubicos.com
> 
> Each has its pros and cons. Many houses appeared in all three listings. We also drove around the areas we liked and wrote down phone numbers on "for rent" signs.


Yes your post.. Sorry about that. Ok.. Good to know.. That last one I am not familiar with. Thanks!


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## circle110

1happykamper said:


> Yes your post.. Sorry about that. Ok.. Good to know.. That last one I am not familiar with. Thanks!


I actually found that I like Metros Cúbicos best because it shows you pretty accurately where the property is; not exactly but within a pretty tight radius. The other ones put a circle around a very wide area and it isn't as helpful.


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## Lefthanded Gordie

Haskins said:


> Yes, we've considered Guadalajara. It's a lovely city. And I have a brother who lives there. Lake Chapala/Ajijic didn't quite agree with us.


We have lived in Guadalajara for nearly 40 years. The traffic has become a nightmare and since I am now semi-retired we spend as much time as possible elsewhere. Where we once had calandrias passing by the house on Lázaro Cárdenas (then Av. de las Torres) in Jardines del Bosque, it is now basically a 6 lane freeway. Our old home there and many others have either been demolished and replaced with commercial buildings or converted to some type of business. 

It does offer plenty in the way of culture and entertainment and that is a big plus. But the growth has far outstripped infrastructure, especially roadways, and it isn't the pleasant city it once was. Some others may enjoy it but we always look forward to escaping the city for more tranquil surroundings.


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## TundraGreen

Lefthanded Gordie said:


> We have lived in Guadalajara for nearly 40 years. The traffic has become a nightmare and since I am now semi-retired we spend as much time as possible elsewhere. Where we once had calandrias passing by the house on Lázaro Cárdenas (then Av. de las Torres) in Jardines del Bosque, it is now basically a 6 lane freeway. Our old home there and many others have either been demolished and replaced with commercial buildings or converted to some type of business.
> 
> It does offer plenty in the way of culture and entertainment and that is a big plus. But the growth has far outstripped infrastructure, especially roadways, and it isn't the pleasant city it once was. Some others may enjoy it but we always look forward to escaping the city for more tranquil surroundings.


I have only been in Guadalajara for 10 years and I can see the change in traffic even in that short time. If I had to drive as part of my daily life, I would not like it much. But as it is, the only time I have to deal with traffic is when I take a road trip out of town. For everything I need, I can walk, bike, or occasionally take a bus. So the traffic doesn't affect me much at all.


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## horseshoe846

Gosh - I have only been to Guadalajara once about 10 years ago - and I thought the traffic was terrible back then.

Starting to plan our next outing - Monterrey - but we might fly for that one.


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## CasaColibri

To Lefthanded Gordie, Have lived in Guanajuato capital 20 years. Still lovin' it! Growing, like everywhere else, but not at a frantic pace since it basically has no industry. Yes, there are times of higher tourist influx that can tie up traffic now and then (like during Cervantino Festival in October, some other holidays,) but still has a more tranquil aspect than the big cities. There are a few supermarkets, a couple of small malls, but mostly smaller shops. I do confess to a monthly shopping trip to Leon (about 45 minutes away) to hit Costco, Home Depot, HEB, etc., but I wouldn't actually want to LIVE there. I also like that the international airport(BJX)is small and only about a 30 minute drive. Expat community is small, but active, mostly people who don't want to live in one of the big expat places like Chapala or SMA.


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## horseshoe846

CasaColibri said:


> To Lefthanded Gordie, Have lived in Guanajuato capital 20 years. Still lovin' it! Growing, like everywhere else, but not at a frantic pace since it basically has no industry. Yes, there are times of higher tourist influx that can tie up traffic now and then (like during Cervantino Festival in October, some other holidays,) but still has a more tranquil aspect than the big cities. There are a few supermarkets, a couple of small malls, but mostly smaller shops. I do confess to a monthly shopping trip to Leon (about 45 minutes away) to hit Costco, Home Depot, HEB, etc., but I wouldn't actually want to LIVE there. I also like that the international airport(BJX)is small and only about a 30 minute drive. Expat community is small, but active, mostly people who don't want to live in one of the big expat places like Chapala or SMA.


If we lived in Guananuato we would be on a first name basis with the staff at the Soriana's. 

Hard for me to tell the difference between an expat and a tourist - but most of the people we saw who did not appear Mexican seemed young and maybe European (by their dress).

There was a MASSIVE GM plant on the highway heading into Guananuato - easily the largest factory I have ever seen in my life. We were wondering if that is a major source of employment for the residents of Guananuato ?


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## AlanMexicali

horseshoe846 said:


> If we lived in Guananuato we would be on a first name basis with the staff at the Soriana's.
> 
> Hard for me to tell the difference between an expat and a tourist - but most of the people we saw who did not appear Mexican seemed young and maybe European (by their dress).
> 
> There was a MASSIVE GM plant on the highway heading into Guananuato - easily the largest factory I have ever seen in my life. We were wondering if that is a major source of employment for the residents of Guananuato ?


I pass the GM warehouse and distribution center on my way to Guanajuato. It is huge. They distribute parts etc. from there to the GM vehicle manufacturing plants nearby and all over Mexico. They have finished vehicles ready to transport. Executive offices, network servers and more. Notice all the railroad lines going in all directions nearby.


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## Haskins

1happykamper said:


> Which search engine did you use haskins?
> 
> BTW.. In my 5 years as a member here this is one of the VERY BEST threads I have read.



Thanks, 1happycamper. When at home, we use Vivanuncios.com, but nothing beats foot on the ground, on site looking around research! Walking and/or driving through the different parts of town gives you a better feel for the neighborhoods. We did that in both San Miguel and Guanajuato. We had never considered Mexico City for our future home, but when we discovered Coyoacan we knew we just had to add it to our list! In Guanajuato we also picked up a copy of Chopper, a local news magazine with lots of homes and apartments for sale/rent.


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## Haskins

And the credit for this thread goes to all the awesome experienced folks with excellent advice! I've learned so much in this forum. Thanks for your guidance, y'all!


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## Haskins

It's time for round 2 of our research. Monday we'll be heading to Guanajuato City for the second time. Found an Airbnb near Centro. We'll be "trying on the town for size", looking at various neighborhoods (Zona Centro, Valenciana, San Javier, Presa de la Hoya, Marfil), Feeling them out, and seeing what the rentals look like.


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## chicois8

Just be careful walking around, some cobblestones can be slick and people slipping and falling is not uncommon in GTO and San Miguel...


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## Haskins

chicois8 said:


> Just be careful walking around, some cobblestones can be slick and people slipping and falling is not uncommon in GTO and San Miguel...


Especially during these rather wet times of the year! thanks for the head's up!


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## Anonimo

Other than the mercado, I found Cholula to be dry, dusty and boring. And the great pyramid is highly overrated.


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## Anonimo

*Mariscos*



circle110 said:


> That is interesting because I find them all fascinatingly unique and very representative of the cultural vibe of that particular city. I'm talking only about cities, not the pueblos with their zocalos in front of the churches; those do look the same almost everywhere.
> 
> Then again, I feel the same way you feel about colonial centros about beaches -- they all look exactly the same to me: Sun, sand, water.


Other than for winter warmth and fresh seafood, you can take my place on the beach.


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## Haskins

I go nuts crazy over colonial architecture! That's my thing rather than sand and beaches. Beautiful old churches, colorful colonial buildings, add amazing food to the list and I'm home.


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## EmilyTravels

Haskins said:


> I go nuts crazy over colonial architecture! That's my thing rather than sand and beaches. Beautiful old churches, colorful colonial buildings, add amazing food to the list and I'm home.


My problem is that I love both. And mountains, with green shade trees and paths to explore, not to mention beautiful vistas. No wonder I can't ever decide where I want to live long-term and keep moving around. I would be _muy contento_ if I could just settle on one particular environment and grow roots...but that doesn't seem to be in my wandering nature. I want it all.


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## perropedorro

EmilyTravels said:


> My problem is that I love both. And mountains, with green shade trees and paths to explore, not to mention beautiful vistas. No wonder I can't ever decide where I want to live long-term and keep moving around. I would be _muy contento_ if I could just settle on one particular environment and grow roots...but that doesn't seem to be in my wandering nature. I want it all.


I've got the same wanderlust, but it's harder to accommodate than when I was 20-something. Pine forests and high mountain air have their appeal, especially in the summer to escape the sauna of the tropical coast, a place I call home but admit ain't got the weather for year-round living. Oppressive heat/humidity, the salty air that quickly eats away construction, and hurricanes which will be here shortly. But it's awfully nice from October-April and attracts about 30 relatives for Christmas and Easter week. We've got a small house but a big sandy beach lot and a dozen coconut palms where they hang hammocks and pitch tents, gossip, play music, and consume adult beverages til the sun rises. Sorta like a swinging refugee camp. 
Colonial architecture... meh, it looks all the same to me although my wife loves it and could stare at arches, gargoyles, and dancing stone cherubs all day. But I do like history and that often comes with the package. Anyway, do a little of both. It's nice to have an address where you spend maybe half of your time--- comes in handy when the migra asks you to fill out residency forms. But you don't have to live there _all_ the time.


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## EmilyTravels

perropedorro said:


> Anyway, do a little of both. It's nice to have an address where you spend maybe half of your time--- comes in handy when the migra asks you to fill out residency forms. But you don't have to live there _all_ the time.


Exactly -- that is the plan. Been doing that for awhile now but got stuck in Florida this summer for orthodontic reasons and owie...the heat and humidity are killer.


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## Haskins

EmilyTravels said:


> My problem is that I love both. And mountains, with green shade trees and paths to explore, not to mention beautiful vistas. No wonder I can't ever decide where I want to live long-term and keep moving around. I would be _muy contento_ if I could just settle on one particular environment and grow roots...but that doesn't seem to be in my wandering nature. I want it all.


This is why I love Guanajuato. It has the old colonial architecture, the relatively temperate climate, and MOUNTAINS! I want to enjoy this city while my body can still handle it's climbing callejones. And hiking is one of my hobbies, so I'll be in heaven!


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## TundraGreen

Haskins said:


> … And hiking is one of my hobbies, so I'll be in heaven!


 Without arguing for or against any particular city, I would like to note that Guadalajara is surprisingly close to a lot of great hiking. It would be striking for any city but seems especially so to me, given the size of Guadalajara.

Guadalajara lies between the Barranca de Huentitán to the northeast and the Bosque la Primavera to the west. Both have many kilometers of hiking trails and can be reached by car, bus or taxi in about an hour from the center of the city. In fact I usually walk to the Barranca de Huentitán trailhead from my house in the middle of the city. But it requires more of an urban walk than most people would care for I suspect.


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