# Spanish self-defence & stand-your-ground laws?



## FloridaMan

Hey,
My family and I are moving to Málaga shortly and I have heard that muggings and break-ins aren´t that uncommon over there.

I was wondering how does the law work over there?

Let´s say someone tries to mug me on a dark alley, is it o.k. for me to use a weapon to defend myself?

Or worst-case scenario, someone breaks into our home at night, is it o.k. for me to protect my family and shoot the perpetrator?


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## Bevdeforges

Have moved your post over to the Spain section of the forum. In general, however, I think you'll find that European gun laws are significantly different from those in the US. There are terms and conditions for you to even have a firearm in your home - and self defense isn't usually considered an acceptable reason.


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## Relyat

The laws covering gun ownership are, from where you are, very restrictive. If you have even an idea of gun ownership then a little research will show what you would need to do.
Likewise the idea of carrying a weapon in public. It's simply not permitted.
I have no idea what the crime rates are in your area but it's often the case that fear of crime is disproportionately greater than the threat of crime.


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## MataMata

Spain's gun laws are said to be amongst the most restrictive in Europe and specific justification is required for the granting of a licence to hold one.

Self defence is in fact cited however you can be absolutely sure that that does not include to be able to shoot a burglar !

Spain is not the USA and thank god for it, we can manage perfectly well without that 'shoot first, ask questions later' sick and disturbed gun culture.

Of itself and for whatever reason simply carrying any weapon in public will likely get you into trouble.


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## Alcalaina

Hello! Who told you "muggings and break-ins are not uncommon" in Malaga? Houses do get burgled, especially if they are left empty for long periods, but it's hardy an everyday event. Just make sure everything is securely locked. As for muggings, or any violent street crime, they are extremely rare.

And as others have said, you can't shoot people, whatever the reason!


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## Simply Simon

We have the right to bare arms, bare legs as well if you want. Guns? No thanks, too many of those nasty things already.


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## northernlights

Pepper spray is legal here in Spain, I bought a can for about 18 euros last year, i bought it as protection against the 'wild' dogs that run around the campos that i walk/hike through, turns out pepper spray is ineffective against dogs, in fact spraying them will just make them more angry lol!!!!


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## northernlights

Alcalaina said:


> Hello! Who told you "muggings and break-ins are not uncommon" in Malaga? Houses do get burgled, especially if they are left empty for long periods, but it's hardy an everyday event. Just make sure everything is securely locked. As for muggings, or any violent street crime, they are extremely rare.
> 
> And as others have said, you can't shoot people, whatever the reason!


''you can't shoot people, whatever the reason!'',,,, yes you can, my cousin in Lubbock Texas shot a 'home invader' (in the leg) a couple of years ago, the 'perp' was a known offender, my cousin filled in ONE police form and never heard anymore about it lol!!!!!


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## Simply Simon

Alcalaina said:


> Hello! Who told you "muggings and break-ins are not uncommon" in Malaga? Houses do get burgled, especially if they are left empty for long periods, but it's hardy an everyday event. Just make sure everything is securely locked. As for muggings, or any violent street crime, they are extremely rare.
> 
> And as others have said, you can't shoot people, whatever the reason!


A bloke in the pub told someone that someone told him that ......

There are some interesting stats here:

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Crime_statistics

Denmark is the worst place to live if you don't want to be burgled - with almost 800 per 100,00 inhabitants! Spain is quite low, less than 300 in 100,000, which considering all the holiday properties left vacant off-season that is pretty good.

Spain is extremely low in the homicide table, only 3 countries are safer if you don't want to be murdered.


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## 95995

northernlights said:


> ''you can't shoot people, whatever the reason!'',,,, yes you can, my cousin in Lubbock Texas shot a 'home invader' (in the leg) a couple of years ago, the 'perp' was a known offender, my cousin filled in ONE police form and never heard anymore about it lol!!!!!


That was in Texas though, not Spain.


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## Lynn R

The right of a householder to shoot an intruder is one of the policies of Vox, a recently established political party which has not, to date, found much favour with Spanish voters. This report refers to the case of a local police officer in Sevilla who was facing a 20 year prison sentence for doing just that. So no, it is definitely not legal in Spain.

https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/2019-03-23/vox-elecciones-armas-posesion-asalto_1900090/

This is the case referred to.

https://www.diariodesevilla.es/sevilla/juicio-policia-local-asalto-casa_0_1337566365.html


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## Megsmum

northernlights said:


> ''you can't shoot people, whatever the reason!'',,,, yes you can, my cousin in Lubbock Texas shot a 'home invader' (in the leg) a couple of years ago, the 'perp' was a known offender, my cousin filled in ONE police form and never heard anymore about it lol!!!!!


Yes, in USA, but a country that doesn’t flinch when 27 six year olds are slaughtered in a primary school and nothing changed , I’m not surprised that anyone can shoot anything or anybody


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## Ovaldo

Megsmum said:


> Yes, in USA, but a country that doesn’t flinch when 27 six year olds are slaughtered in a primary school and nothing changed , I’m not surprised that anyone can shoot anything or anybody


Ones opinion is ones opinion. Here is another by a person who knows a little more.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/people-claim-nothing-has-changed-since-sandy-hook-theyre_b_5a31b566e4b06a512dd69d51?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAACbVW_2XFh6jVQKrxwnQN39llI3dZe1t0gPwQEsAFHdv8waSJwddd5yidfwwPSlX7eFUSyuWqtGjOsMbJVgEp5H6Zq_jtLCqkxl-GbjrTnipBEQutFD9Z3kfQtB1ffAQP_xwnnr6HJNgV0-mqyS5Ijm0D6MOzFVB90d5OF8KwUOB&guccounter=2

If you are referring to the same incident them your number is off also, on the children and the fatalities. Maybe you included the perpetrator then your number is correct but wrong on minor count.


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## Ovaldo

To the original question - guns maybe not here in Spain but you could get some very vicious dogs.. A different satisfaction from protecting your family with a gun but if the dog kills a trespasser than with the proper signage than the worst may be a fine or the dog being put down.


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## Juan C

I toured USA for six months in a Motor home. I legally had a hand gun with me. I discovered that the gun laws varied considerably from state to state. Thus whilst in Texas they are relaxed about who one can shoot other states are more restrictive. Anyone quoting ‘what happens in USA’. is probably only speaking of the state they know and not about the laws in other states 

PS. In U.K. as police officer I was trained. That was why I was ‘safe’ to have a gun in USA 

I believe in spain as in U.K. one can act in self defence providing your actions, and any force used is ‘reasonable.’ Each situation would be looked at in isolation so trying to explain what ‘reasonable’ would be in general is not possible


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## northernlights

Re guns in America, a few years ago a Democrat (who else) governor/senator tried to get into law a statute that meant that homes that had firearms in them for home protection should A- be on a register available for the public to view. 
B- the home was also to be sign posted that there where guns on the premises. 
this was being brought in to prevent/ward off any potential burglars etc to stop shootings occurring, this nonsense nearly made it onto the books before it was pointed out to the courts that all the burglars etc would do was use this information to AVOID the homes where the occupants could fight back and to TARGET the homes where they knew there would be little chance of them being stopped , that's the level of competence from the anti-gun brigade lol!!!!!!


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## northernlights

Ovaldo said:


> To the original question - guns maybe not here in Spain but you could get some very vicious dogs.. A different satisfaction from protecting your family with a gun but if the dog kills a trespasser than with the proper signage than the worst may be a fine or the dog being put down.


so you would be ok with a child being mauled to death who had just jumped the fence to get their ball back or is scrumping a few apples etc? I think 'the worst' will be a long prison sentence if you knowingly leave a vicious animal loose on your property without supervision and it kills a human. Putting up signs does not abdicate you of any legal responsibilities that you have to members of the public.


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## MataMata

northernlights said:


> Re guns in America, a few years ago a Democrat (who else) governor/senator tried to get into law a statute that meant that homes that had firearms in them for home protection should A- be on a register available for the public to view.
> B- the home was also to be sign posted that there where guns on the premises.
> this was being brought in to prevent/ward off any potential burglars etc to stop shootings occurring, this nonsense nearly made it onto the books before it was pointed out to the courts that all the burglars etc would do was use this information to AVOID the homes where the occupants could fight back and to TARGET the homes where they knew there would be little chance of them being stopped , that's the level of competence from the anti-gun brigade lol!!!!!!


With guns numbering 120 per 100 of the population - yes that's 1.2 guns per head for each and every single one of the USA's 330,000,000 people including babies, children, etc. - that would have meant barely a property in the land NOT on the register and NOT displaying a sign. 

Pity the poor handful of sods who eschewed guns as they would be getting turned over 3 times a day between meals!


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## Juan C

I have not read the full report regarding the police officer, however, had his assailant be armed with a gun of other deadly weapon, and the officer had no reasonable alternative but to shoot him, I am pretty sure he would not be convicted. 

That is the situation in U.K. and I believe the same argument would apply in Spain. 

It all rests on ‘reasonable’ force.


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## northernlights

Juan C said:


> I have not read the full report regarding the police officer, however, had his assailant be armed with a gun of other deadly weapon, and the officer had no reasonable alternative but to shoot him, I am pretty sure he would not be convicted.
> 
> That is the situation in U.K. and I believe the same argument would apply in Spain.
> 
> It all rests on ‘reasonable’ force.


Ah the good old 'Full Report', when i was learning to be a pilot my instructor used to say to us that whilst you may only have a few seconds to evaluate and react to a dire situation in the cockpit you can be rest assured as the committee will have months in which to pour over your every move before declaring the crash as pilot error lol!!


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## Juan C

northernlights said:


> Juan C said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have not read the full report regarding the police officer, however, had his assailant be armed with a gun of other deadly weapon, and the officer had no reasonable alternative but to shoot him, I am pretty sure he would not be convicted.
> 
> That is the situation in U.K. and I believe the same argument would apply in Spain.
> 
> It all rests on ‘reasonable’ force.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah the good old 'Full Report', when i was learning to be a pilot my instructor used to say to us that whilst you may only have a few seconds to evaluate and react to a dire situation in the cockpit you can be rest assured as the committee will have months in which to pour over your every move before declaring the crash as pilot error lol!!
Click to expand...

When I said that it was because in most circumstances I would only give my opinion on a legal matter when I have been able to understand all the circumstances. 

From my former job I am very aware of one often having to make a spur of the moment decision. 

For that reason when judicially considering a case one would take into consideration the reactions of say a police officer as opposed to an ordinary member of the public who, unlike say a Policia local officer, may never have been trained how to react in stressful situations. 

The actions of one could be considered as ‘reasonable’ when the same actions by the other, may not be ‘reasonable.’


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## Megsmum

Juan C said:


> I toured USA for six months in a Motor home. I legally had a hand gun with me. I discovered that the gun laws varied considerably from state to state. Thus whilst in Texas they are relaxed about who one can shoot other states are more restrictive. Anyone quoting ‘what happens in USA’. is probably only speaking of the state they know and not about the laws in other states
> 
> PS. In U.K. as police officer I was trained. That was why I was ‘safe’ to have a gun in USA
> 
> I believe in spain as in U.K. one can act in self defence providing your actions, and any force used is ‘reasonable.’ Each situation would be looked at in isolation so trying to explain what ‘reasonable’ would be in general is not possible


Where you trained like another members to hold a gun in one hand protecting yourself whilst firing the gun with the other LOL. As an aside, do you have to get a licence if travelling around the USA as non USA citizen to carry a fire arm. I ask out if interest?

I think you have nailed the head on issue, the USA gun laws vary so much from state to state, i suppose like most things. Personally I’m happier living in a country, be it here or U.K. where the public only have the right to bare legs and arms


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## Juan C

Hi Megsmum. 

I did not quite follow the one hand comment, but we normally used a two handed grip, which is standard. We did practice one handed with both left and right, on the understanding that if we were injured, or for some other reason could only use one hand, we would stand some chance

In USA I started my trip in Florida. I was not allowed to buy a gun but could legally be given one. A friend supplied the .38 Smith and Weston. I then tried to register my possession, but that was not possible.

When I entered Georgia and Tennessee I asked what the law on carrying a gun was. They were quite different from the laws in Florida and from each other! 

However, it took so long for the staff at the state line entry points to find out what he law was, I gave up and never asked when entering the remaining 20+ states.


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## Megsmum

Juan C said:


> Hi Megsmum.
> 
> I did not quite follow the one hand comment, but we normally used a two handed grip, which is standard. We did practice one handed with both left and right, on the understanding that if we were injured, or for some other reason could only use one hand, we would stand some chance
> 
> In USA I started my trip in Florida. I was not allowed to buy a gun but could legally be given one. A friend supplied the .38 Smith and Weston. I then tried to register my possession, but that was not possible.
> 
> When I entered Georgia and Tennessee I asked what the law on carrying a gun was. They were quite different from the laws in Florida and from each other!
> 
> However, it took so long for the staff at the state line entry points to find out what he law was, I gave up and never asked when entering the remaining 20+ states.



Interesting , thank you for that response


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## baldilocks

Megsmum said:


> be it here or U.K. where the public only have the right to bare legs and arms


I have seen some of the bare legs and arms - you are turning this into a horror movie...


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## Monkey104

You’ve been to Benidorm then?


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## MataMata

Juan C said:


> it took so long for the staff at the state line entry points to find out what he law was, I gave up and never asked when entering the remaining 20+ states.


Be very thankful that you had no ocassion to use it then, wrong time wrong place and you could have found yourself posting from a jail cell or even death row!


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## ksjazzguitar

The general crime rates in Spain are about 40% higher, but the homicide rate in the US is about 5-10X higher (depending on who is measuring and how) and you're about 20X more likely to get shot in the US.

So, yes, there is a little more crime in Spain, but it's actually much safer.


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## Simply Simon

ksjazzguitar said:


> The general crime rates in Spain are about 40% higher, but the homicide rate in the US is about 5-10X higher (depending on who is measuring and how) and you're about 20X more likely to get shot in the US.
> 
> So, yes, there is a little more crime in Spain, but it's actually much safer.


I don't think so. Crime rates 40% higher in Spain? 

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Spain/United-States/Crime

According to that site crime rates per person in the US are 85-92% higher than Spain. Maybe you can provide some links for your claim.


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## Alcalaina

Simply Simon said:


> I don't think so. Crime rates 40% higher in Spain?
> 
> https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Spain/United-States/Crime
> 
> According to that site crime rates per person in the US are 85-92% higher than Spain. Maybe you can provide some links for your claim.


What a fascinating site!

it looks like the only kind of crimes that are more frequent in Spain are burglary and robbery. Perhaps the fear of being shot is a deterrent in the US. Or maybe they are more likely to involve violence in the US, so are counted in a different category.


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## ksjazzguitar

Simply Simon said:


> I don't think so. Crime rates 40% higher in Spain?
> [link]


OK, cool. I thought I'd found that somewhere. It might also depend on what they call a crime and if it's a weighted index or not. And perhaps I'm remembering it wrong, maybe it was just property crime. But I can't find the source that I used so let's go with yours. And that makes my original point even more strongly.


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## Simply Simon

Alcalaina said:


> What a fascinating site!
> 
> it looks like the only kind of crimes that are more frequent in Spain are burglary and robbery. Perhaps the fear of being shot is a deterrent in the US. Or maybe they are more likely to involve violence in the US, so are counted in a different category.


Most of the records are very out of date, some are 17 years old, but with crime levels falling throughout Europe and maybe in the US? Don't know about the US, I think the fear of crime in Spain is far worse than the reality. It's going to be difficult comparing stats because in some countries people don't bother to even report burglaries as they know feck all will be done and minor offences won't be counted. I really don't think there is more burglary per 1,000 in Spain than in the US. If anyone can find some more up to date stats t would be interesting.


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## Megsmum

Simply Simon said:


> I don't think so. Crime rates 40% higher in Spain?
> 
> https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Spain/United-States/Crime
> 
> According to that site crime rates per person in the US are 85-92% higher than Spain. Maybe you can provide some links for your claim.


Thanks Simon. That’s was interesting


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## Pinot

Florida "stand your ground" mentality in play with this post.


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## Ovaldo

Get locked and loaded - you might be able to shot somebody... 

https://www.euroweeklynews.com/2019/09/24/cleared-of-murder-for-shooting-colombians-in-self-defence/


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## Cousin Jack

Juan C said:


> I toured USA for six months in a Motor home. I legally had a hand gun with me. I discovered that the gun laws varied considerably from state to state. Thus whilst in Texas they are relaxed about who one can shoot other states are more restrictive. Anyone quoting ‘what happens in USA’. is probably only speaking of the state they know and not about the laws in other states
> 
> PS. In U.K. as police officer I was trained. That was why I was ‘safe’ to have a gun in USA



Unsure what your status was when you travelled around the States but if you were a non immigrant then the law is quite specific, and Federal law always trump State law.

From the ATF website.

May a nonimmigrant alien who has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa possess a firearm or ammunition in the United States?

An alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa is prohibited from shipping, transporting, receiving, or possessing a firearm or ammunition unless the alien falls within one of the exceptions provided in 18 U.S.C. 922(2), such as: a valid hunting license or permit, admitted for lawful hunting or sporting purposes, certain official representatives of a foreign government, or a foreign law enforcement officer of a friendly foreign government entering the United States on official law enforcement business.
[18 U.S.C. 922(g)(5)(B) and 922(2); 27 CFR 478.11 and 478.32]


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## wparchao

northernlights said:


> ''you can't shoot people, whatever the reason!'',,,, yes you can, my cousin in Lubbock Texas shot a 'home invader' (in the leg) a couple of years ago, the 'perp' was a known offender, my cousin filled in ONE police form and never heard anymore about it lol!!!!!


In spain ... the post is about the situation in Spain .... shooting a trespasser would be murder.


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## xicoalc

northernlights said:


> so you would be ok with a child being mauled to death who had just jumped the fence to get their ball back or is scrumping a few apples etc? I think 'the worst' will be a long prison sentence if you knowingly leave a vicious animal loose on your property without supervision and it kills a human. Putting up signs does not abdicate you of any legal responsibilities that you have to members of the public.


Regarding dogs, of course we all have to take reasonable steps to protect people from our dogs if we have one. But this needs to also be looked at in context.

I, for example have big dogs and one is a 50kg (potentially dangerous.. PPP) . Hes a big baby but of course protects the house like any dog. The difference being that if he did choose to attack and really want to, he could cause a lot of damage.

To own him i had to go through a procedure of obtaining a license. This involved a police check on me, physical and psychological evaluation of me, special insurance for potentially dangerous dogs (and i will say, i much prefer thr spanish way of categorising dogs with the use of "potential" rather than the UK who deem every dog of a certain type just plain dangerous), vet checks on the dog, and so on.

Further more, I have to ensure that my property is secure so that he cannot escape. The Police actually inspected my house when I moved (well, they said they may pass by oje day but not to worry if I'm out, they'll just take a look).

My house is on a 6000m2 campo and i went to considerable expense to not only fence it all to 2 metres but to also have the bottoms of the fence concreted into the ground. I also display "perro peligroso" signs on the entrance points and on each side of my land.

So, anyone who comes here is either invited by us (in which case the dog will simply open one eye to do a quick security check before going back to sleep) or they are here to do no good (in which case he will warn them very strongly not to come in). If they ignore his warnings, and breach my strong high fence then, well they deserve what may happen.

Where I live is very rural, houses are sparse. In a nearby area therr have been a fee robberies and the Police came to have a chat about security recently. They were impressed with how secure house is in terms of the dog, and also how he showed aggressive warnings as they arrived but backed off in the moment I told him its ok (and then licked them to death when they came in).

I asked the very question about my responsibilities if anyone enters and he attacks and they were very clear. They said I'd made very clear with signs that he's here. I'd made it secure and high enough fence that anyone would have to make a real effort to come in, so if they do, and my dog defends his property then i have nothing to worry about and that there would be zero problems for me

I doubt kids would enter to steal fruit, they would need a big step ladder to even try! Anyone coming in here would be for bad reasons!


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