# Non-lucrative Visa?



## zephcat (Jul 31, 2016)

I teach online, and can do so from anywhere in the world. Considering moving to Spain for a year, and a little confused about the visa options (I'd love to stay longer than the Schengen visa allows Americans). I've heard of the non-lucrative visa, and wondering if this would be the one I'd try to obtain?

I can show about $60,000 of savings, and a paycheck of $2000 each month. Will this suffice? And is it even possible that I can obtain a long-term visa?

Thanks so much! And feel free to redirect me...I know there have been similar threads. 

Also...Is the process similar to that of Italy, or is it a bit easier in Italy to obtain a long-term visa? Or do I have no idea what I'm talking about? :juggle:


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## kdsb (May 3, 2015)

zephcat said:


> I teach online, and can do so from anywhere in the world. Considering moving to Spain for a year, and a little confused about the visa options (I'd love to stay longer than the Schengen visa allows Americans). I've heard of the non-lucrative visa, and wondering if this would be the one I'd try to obtain?
> 
> I can show about $60,000 of savings, and a paycheck of $2000 each month. Will this suffice? And is it even possible that I can obtain a long-term visa?
> 
> ...


We recently got non lucrative visas to live in Spain and it seems like that would be the right fit for you. The consulate we went through (Boston) was far more interested in regular income rather than savings, and my husband is working remotely. I am also teaching grad school classes online but that income is more sporadic so we didn't even mention it. I think 2K per month meets the requirements. We are a family of 6 so the monthly amount was higher.

Feel free to ask any questions about the process, although ideally try to connect with someone who went through the same consulate recently since it can be different everywhere.


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## lorort (Dec 24, 2015)

I plan on retiring to Spain in a couple of years. This is the info I received from the Consulate in Houston when I asked if I would be able to work on a non-lucrative visa.

You are not allowed to work in Spain at all if you are under a non-lucrative visa. If you wish to work in Spain, you will have to apply for a work visa.


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## lorort (Dec 24, 2015)

Forgot to post about the amount of money needed. This is yearly, so about 2,130 euros monthly.

You will have to provide proof that you have €25,560 available on the day of your application. You can provide proof of that with checking accounts, savings accounts, investments, annuities…


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## kdsb (May 3, 2015)

It seems different consulates handle this differently, since the Boston one is aware that my husband is working remotely and had no issue with this (in fact, they requested a letter verifying it). Best to check with your consulate directly. It looks like Colorado would go to the LA consulate and I have been following the blog of someone who applied through there with a similar situation to ours and their experience was like ours, and they provided documentation about working remotely. Here a link to the post I found helpful about the non lucrative visa process: Ready, Set, Spain! : Non-Lucrative Spanish Visa Requirements


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

lorort said:


> I plan on retiring to Spain in a couple of years. This is the info I received from the Consulate in Houston when I asked if I would be able to work on a non-lucrative visa.
> 
> You are not allowed to work in Spain at all if you are under a non-lucrative visa. If you wish to work in Spain, you will have to apply for a work visa.


yes, that's how it has always been

However, some consulates do seem to be issuing non-lucrative visas to those working remotely. I personally (as in face to face) know someone who is here with a non-lucrative visa who showed his salary from a US company as proof of income, & that was accepted. 

There are also a few members of the forum in the same position


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

But I bet you they are not submitting a Spanish tax return Xabi, or are they?
I wonder if any of the US citizens here on a non luc visa that are working remotely can clarify what happens when they submit their Spanish tax return like every working resident in Spain must do?

I'm really curious to know as this does not seem fair at all that Americans can consulate shop their way in to Spain yet I have to tell my family and friends that they can't come in that way.

What makes it worse is the characters like those who wrote the blog linked above and others are actively advertising their consultancy business in Spain whilst on a non-lucrative visa here.

So yeah, I find it odd and moreover unfair but maybe I am out of the loop and just need clarification somewhere what the actual rules are or maybe certain consulates need that clarification.
I wonder if there is an extra handling fee too slipped in from these consulates, probably not.

Bloody magical visas.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Pazcat said:


> But I bet you they are not submitting a Spanish tax return Xabi, or are they?
> I wonder if any of the US citizens here on a non luc visa that are working remotely can clarify what happens when they submit their Spanish tax return like every working resident in Spain must do?
> 
> I'm really curious to know as this does not seem fair at all that Americans can consulate shop their way in to Spain yet I have to tell my family and friends that they can't come in that way.
> ...


Just so you know - Americans don't get to consulate shop. They _have_ to use the consulate that is affiliated with the area that they live in. 

I totally agree that all of the consulates should be using the same criteria to issue visas. All of the Spanish consulates worldwide, in fact. It's ridiculous that each consulate is left to make up the rules as they go along. It's not fair at all.

Personally I can't see how working remotely is any different from having your office in your house (by that I mean opening mail, shuffling papers, making phone calls, etc). But apparently the first is not considered working in Spain while the second is. :noidea: But it's not up to me to decide what constitutes working in Spain.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Well I'm sure some can and do move to an area with a compliant consulate, you can find enough posts elsewhere that will point you in that direction if you so choose. 
Regardless is it really up to the consulates to decide or is it the Spanish lawmakers who have the final say?

I suspect that it is not the consulate but hey I don't know for sure.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Pazcat said:


> But I bet you they are not submitting a Spanish tax return Xabi, or are they?
> I wonder if any of the US citizens here on a non luc visa that are working remotely can clarify what happens when they submit their Spanish tax return like every working resident in Spain must do?


Or non working residents, if they receive pensions!

In an ideal world, the Consulates who issue non lucrative visas to those who are working remotely would pass their details on to Hacienda who could then check to make sure annual Spanish tax returns are being submitted and the income details are consistent with those stated for the purpose of obtaining the visa. But I bet that doesn't happen.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

I don't think that can happen Lynn as when you are on a non-luc visa you shouldn't submit a tax return for income made. 
But if you are working then you MUST submit one.

So I wonder which is it?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pazcat said:


> I don't think that can happen Lynn as when you are on a non-luc visa you shouldn't submit a tax return for income made.
> But if you are working then you MUST submit one.
> 
> So I wonder which is it?


Those I know will be submitting a tax return if they stay long enough. They arrived August last year, so their first year of tax residency will be this year (2016) meaning that their first tax return will be June 2017.

As residents you have to submit a return showing all worldwide income, not just income from work (in Spain or anywhere else), so anyone on a non-lucrative visa would have to submit a tax return since they must have an income of some kind from somewhere, unless they are living off savings. 
Many will be living off income from investments for example. That is income & must be declared.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Am I confused or is it the usual case of "When in Spain" all the normal rules and meanings of words are changed?

It was my understanding that a 'non-lucrative' visa applied to anyone who was not receiving an income from Spanish sources (i.e. depriving another person living in Spain.) In which case if he is working remotely and deriving his income from work (online or otherwise) from the USA, he would not be depriving a Spanish person of an income and thereby be entitled to a non-lucrative visa. This would be the same as somebody from the USA (e.g.) who had assets and savings of say several hundred grand which provided an income adequate for his living purposes in Spain who would be eligible for a non-lucrative visa.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> Am I confused or is it the usual case of "When in Spain" all the normal rules and meanings of words are changed?
> 
> It was my understanding that a 'non-lucrative' visa applied to anyone who was not receiving an income from Spanish sources (i.e. depriving another person living in Spain.) In which case if he is working remotely and deriving his income from work (online or otherwise) from the USA, he would not be depriving a Spanish person of an income and thereby be entitled to a non-lucrative visa. This would be the same as somebody from the USA (e.g.) who had assets and savings of say several hundred grand which provided an income adequate for his living purposes in Spain who would be eligible for a non-lucrative visa.


This is how some consulates are now interpreting it - & seems to make sense to me, in that anyone in that position would be bringing income to Spain.

Other consulates are still interpreting it much more strictly & saying that non-lucrative means no work at all. No matter where your clients are.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> Those I know will be submitting a tax return if they stay long enough. They arrived August last year, so their first year of tax residency will be this year (2016) meaning that their first tax return will be June 2017.
> 
> As residents you have to submit a return showing all worldwide income, not just income from work (in Spain or anywhere else), so anyone on a non-lucrative visa would have to submit a tax return since they must have an income of some kind from somewhere, unless they are living off savings.
> Many will be living off income from investments for example. That is income & must be declared.


Isn't that the distinction of the non-lucrative visa though that you must already have the means to stay as opposed to earning the means when in Spain? 
At least that is what was thought to be the case until recently.

And well yeah everyone has to make that declaration even if they are working or not but if you are working don't you have to fill out an additional form specifically for income?
In some work remotely situations people have to go autonomo for example, now clearly they can't do that but maybe that is the reason some get rejected and others not?



> This is how some consulates are now interpreting it - & seems to make sense to me, in that anyone in that position would be bringing income to Spain.
> 
> Other consulates are still interpreting it much more strictly & saying that non-lucrative means no work at all. No matter where your clients are.


As much as nothing would surprise me it surely can't just be a matter of interpretation, that is an amazingly iffy statement for it to be the official line with the potential for it to be a legal nightmare. I wouldn't buy a house if anything was left up to interpretation.

Also do all visas get processed centrally in Madrid?
If so then there shouldn't be any discrimination between consulates but seemingly there is.
Then again maybe there is no discrimination and it might just come down to the type of remote work?

I don't know.

I'm just trying to see if we can figure it out is all as it would be nice to be able to give sound advice.
On the forum we have been saying one thing for a while now but clearly that needs to be updated so to speak. There are posts elsewhere by lawyers no less who say it is possible to work remotely on a NL visa so maybe we have been wrong the whole time when saying that you can't.:noidea:


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pazcat said:


> Isn't that the distinction of the non-lucrative visa though that you must already have the means to stay as opposed to earning the means when in Spain?
> At least that is what was thought to be the case until recently.
> 
> And well yeah everyone has to make that declaration even if they are working or not but if you are working don't you have to fill out an additional form specifically for income?
> ...


all very good questions!

As far as I know a tax return is a tax return is a tax return. We all submit the same one annually. Certainly mine has lots of boxes for all sorts of different sources of income. As autónomo most will also have to submit a quarterly return.


As for all visas being processed centrally - I have no idea. I thought they were processed by the individual Consulates, which would explain different requirements at different Consulates


That's a good point about the kind of work maybe making a difference. The guy I know is still working for his US employer. Self-employment or setting up your own business might be treated differently.


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## kdsb (May 3, 2015)

Based on my research we won't have to do taxes while we are here, since we are in Spain less than 183 days in a year (arrived mid-July and will leave before the end of June). We are still paying US taxes the whole time, though, so are definitely not avoiding taxes.

It seems like remote work is consistent with the intent of the visa, since the goal is to protect Spanish jobs for Spanish workers. In fact, the economy is probably better off allowing people with foreign income to live in the country since they will be able to spend more than if they were just living off savings (I know this is the case with us -- if the work remotely thing hadn't worked out we still would have come but on a much more limited budget).

It is odd that different consulates handle this differently. I wonder if Boston is used to this type of situation due to the number of academics, since it is pretty similar to a sabbatical.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

Academics have always been treated as a special case by most countries, whether they're being paid a salary by their home institution, or receiving some sort of grant in the country they're visiting. Quite often they're exempt from tax obligations even if they stay more than a year or two - it's all considered a form of educational exchange.

I'm curious about this visa myself, as one option for a "remote-working sabbatical" in a few years' time, so I had a look at the Canadian consulate sites. It's pretty vague but the instructions seem to conflate "self-employed" with "non-lucrative" and mention the basic 2100 euro/month income requirement, so I have to assume this is something they are possibly allowing.

It makes sense to me. People come to live in your country and spend money they earn offshore. Everybody wins, especially if the government is organized enough to collect income tax. The only downside would be driving up rents and living costs if you had huge concentrations of highly-paid remote workers in certain desirable areas, but I imagine that's not too likely yet.


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## adi700 (Apr 26, 2018)

@zephcat and others. I am replying two years after this thread was started. I am also on a non-lucrative visa. I do online teaching. 

Did you face any problems with Spanish authorities while working remotely? I plan to declare my online income in the annual tax return.


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