# Foreign Workers - crack down



## Sam

Not sure if it's being felt in other areas, but there is a HUGE crack down on foreign employment in Sharm these days. The police and army are going around and any foreign worker they find without a work permit will be instantly dismissed and their employer fined EGP 5000 per worker. 

Those with permits are exempted, but it seems work permits will not be renewed. 

Foreigners who are working illegally, be careful. There is a strong (and for the most part justified) belief that tourist areas are employing non-Egyptians for jobs that Egyptians are capable of and being paid more. I have to say I agree for their motives and would be glad to see the back of those who are unfairly taking Egyptian's jobs, but my own personal worry are those positions that I feel should be done by a foreign national. Some teachers, for example, and guest relations are more often than not needed to be non-Egyptian. However, dive staff, animation teams for example and especially taxi drivers should be handed back to Egyptians.

So, expats, take care. And anyone reading this thinking of moving out here, now is not the time unless you can offer something an Egyptian can't.

As far as I know this does not affect foreigners who legitimately own their business, as long as they are operating within law and employing Egyptian staff.


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## MaidenScotland

I agree that jobs should be available for Egyptians but it does make you ask why they haven't employed Egyptians in the first place.
I employ Egyptians, and foreigners at a higher rate of pay, give me foreigners any time.


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## aykalam

Wonder where they'll get the belly dancers if the foreigners are banned from working in Sharm


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## Sam

MaidenScotland said:


> I agree that jobs should be available for Egyptians but it does make you ask why they haven't employed Egyptians in the first place.
> I employ Egyptians, and foreigners at a higher rate of pay, give me foreigners any time.


This is the problem. The "average" Egyptian worker seems to take no pride in their work. It's like they cut corners and do all they can to just get the end result, whereas it usually means they have to start from the beginning and do it properly anyway. 

Or if you want something done properly you have to stay and watch them every second, they cannot just be left to it. I know plenty of Egyptians, business owners and high management, who would confess their biggest problem is their employees and they either can't be trusted, or they can be trusted but they are useless. 

I wonder sometimes if Egyptians were given the higher pay and conditions of the foreign employee whether their level of work and achievement may improve. But I fear not.


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## MaidenScotland

Sam said:


> This is the problem. The "average" Egyptian worker seems to take no pride in their work. It's like they cut corners and do all they can to just get the end result, whereas it usually means they have to start from the beginning and do it properly anyway.
> 
> Or if you want something done properly you have to stay and watch them every second, they cannot just be left to it. I know plenty of Egyptians, business owners and high management, who would confess their biggest problem is their employees and they either can't be trusted, or they can be trusted but they are useless.
> 
> I wonder sometimes if Egyptians were given the higher pay and conditions of the foreign employee whether their level of work and achievement may improve. But I fear not.




I am certain their productivity would not increase.. ask Men who gives more than the going rate in his factory. I must admit I have a young Egyptian boy that works for me and he is a good worker but I am sure that is because I got my hands on him when he was young (so to speak) and trained him up but sadly until a year ago I trusted this boy with money and he let me down, so now I don't leave my bag near him. I am sure the inshallah attitude has a lot to blame for the woes of this country.


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## Sam

MaidenScotland said:


> I am certain their productivity would not increase.. ask Men who gives more than the going rate in his factory. I must admit I have a young Egyptian boy that works for me and he is a good worker but I am sure that is because I got my hands on him when he was young (so to speak) and trained him up but sadly until a year ago I trusted this boy with money and he let me down, so now I don't leave my bag near him. I am sure the inshallah attitude has a lot to blame for the woes of this country.


"Inshallah" and "bard el bukra" 

These two phrases to me mean that whatever it is, it's not being done. Not anytime soon anyway.


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## marenostrum

Sam said:


> This is the problem. The "average" Egyptian worker seems to take no pride in their work. It's like they cut corners and do all they can to just get the end result, whereas it usually means they have to start from the beginning and do it properly anyway.
> 
> Or if you want something done properly you have to stay and watch them every second, they cannot just be left to it. I know plenty of Egyptians, business owners and high management, who would confess their biggest problem is their employees and they either can't be trusted, or they can be trusted but they are useless.
> 
> I wonder sometimes if Egyptians were given the higher pay and conditions of the foreign employee whether their level of work and achievement may improve. But I fear not.


I've started work here for the first time in six months working for an eg company and i must say a lot of these youngsters appear totally immature, even the degree qualified ones. 
I am a little bit surprised about this, i thought education here wasn't so bad.


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## Eco-Mariner

I wonder who will be replacing the Eastern European hookers in the tourist resorts once they are expelled. Their pimps too?


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## mamasue

Sam said:


> . However, dive staff, animation teams for example and especially taxi drivers should be handed back to Egyptians.
> .




Sam while on the whole I agree with you, I disagree about Egyptian dive staff.
An Egyptian dive guide can do a great job..... but instructors are a different kettle of fish.
Foreigners who have come to Egypt to learn to dive expect to be taught by someone who can speak fluently in their own language.
Although Egyptians are excellent at learning languages, their written and verbal skills are often not enough to teach a dive course comprehensively and safely in another language.
I was a diving instructor for many years in the Red Sea, so I'm very familiar with the situation.
Safety is all-important in diving, and this safety should not be compromised under any circumstances.


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## Eco-Mariner

As a Dive-Boat skipper and dive-master for many years in the Red Sea, I agree entirely with mamasue.

Qualifications were all important especially for safety, but the Egyptian TDA brought about their own regulations which are not as strict as those around our global industry. Those who work for European or US examiners will be tought and work at the highest level including Egyptian dive-masters on the larger tour operator boats and hotel dive-centres..

Even after the Egyptian clampdown on dive-centre licenses and foreign run operation in favour of Egypt owned ones, the governorate allowed some poor operations to continue. Maybe this business will be more scrutinsed in a new Administration. 

Alan.


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## Sam

aykalam said:


> Wonder where they'll get the belly dancers if the foreigners are banned from working in Sharm



Aren't belly dancers usually Egyptian anyway?????




> Sam while on the whole I agree with you, I disagree about Egyptian dive staff.
> An Egyptian dive guide can do a great job..... but instructors are a different kettle of fish.
> Foreigners who have come to Egypt to learn to dive expect to be taught by someone who can speak fluently in their own language.
> Although Egyptians are excellent at learning languages, their written and verbal skills are often not enough to teach a dive course comprehensively and safely in another language.
> I was a diving instructor for many years in the Red Sea, so I'm very familiar with the situation.
> Safety is all-important in diving, and this safety should not be compromised under any circumstances.


Totally agree with you. By dive staff I was meaning the counter staff and sales staff who are often non-Egyptian but can easily be replaced by Egyptians.



> I wonder who will be replacing the Eastern European hookers in the tourist resorts once they are expelled. Their pimps too?


Illegal practices will still be illegal practices.


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## aykalam

Sam said:


> Aren't belly dancers usually Egyptian anyway?????


They are supposed to be. Last time I was in Sharm, a few years ago now, the entertainers were mostly Ukranian.  I guess dancing is not a "respectable" profession


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## MaidenScotland

Belly dancers are very rarely Egyptian as it is now classed as little better than prostitution.
I have seen, Scottish, NZ, English, Filipino (who danced with huge platform shoes on). There was a "law" brought in about 5 years ago that no foreigners could be employed as a belly dancer. but there was no Egyptians available to do the dance.


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## MaidenScotland

Sorry I didn't mention Moroccan belly dancers.


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## Ladylav

It's nice to see a push for more regulation, and hopefully bring more fairness to the workforce. The arguments made here are valid, however. I'm sure I will face this difficulty at some point, but it seems that it is the fair thing to do for Egyptians. Perhaps, psychologically, overtime, by them being treated as worthy employees, the work quality will increase.


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## Eco-Mariner

WORTHY......

Now there is a great word. I shall use it on my staff and see where it gets me.


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## Ladylav

Sam said:


> Aren't belly dancers usually Egyptian anyway?????


Not the ones I've seen, unless it was a straight-up cabaret. The performers I've seen seem to be from somewhere else.


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## bostgwen

What about foreign General Managers, Directors of Food and Beverage, Chefs and housekeepers working in Hotels. They are maximum 3% of the total employees!!!
I do not think they are taking the jobs from the Egyptians. Most of the Egyptians who are working in tourism are proud that their leader is a foreigner. Because they are treated with respect and they learn a lot from them.


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## Sam

bostgwen said:


> What about foreign General Managers, Directors of Food and Beverage, Chefs and housekeepers working in Hotels. They are maximum 3% of the total employees!!!
> I do not think they are taking the jobs from the Egyptians. Most of the Egyptians who are working in tourism are proud that their leader is a foreigner. Because they are treated with respect and they learn a lot from them.


If general managers, f&b managers etc do not have a work permit then they would fall into this category. If they already have a work permit then they may not be able to get it renewed on its expiration. I do not know the criteria to permit non-Egyptians work permits in the future, but it will be much stricter than at present is what I am led to believe.



As for Egyptian belly dancers - it's been many years since I was at Alf Leila we Leila, but I thought the belly dancers they had were Egyptians. I thought the Russians and Ukrainians were in Pacha and such places, but since having a child I don't get out as much as I used to.


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## Horus

I quite liked the foreign animation teams hehehehehehe :eyebrows:

Ask most animation teams here in Sharm who "fox" is they will tell you

Sure they can get rid of those 3rd week of July when my wife turns up


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## MensEtManus

Generally speaking, I feel foreign workers in most countries tend to outperform local workers in both skilled and unskilled jobs. The foreign workers seem to want it a lot more. They are far more fearful about keeping their job, so they work twice as hard and are willing to do anything to keep their job.

I recall in the early stages of my career, I was working alongside many Indians, Chinese, and Japanese. They all outperformed most Americans. Some had lower wages and others had higher wages, but in the end, the foreigners were simply more efficient. 

(most belly dancers I've seen recently have been eastern european / russian / etc.)

In terms of tourism, I think the best years are over. Egypt will eventually shut down its museums, statues, etc (as the strict part of religion does not allow it). Then you'll see segregation between males/females, so good bye family vacations. That also will affect internal tourism as there will no longer be walks on the corniche, or flirting in cafes... Then you'll get the no alcohol so goodbye young love partying concept. Egypt attracts around 13 million folks. Saudi attracts around 6 million folks during umrah. 

I guess we'll find it out what happens in only a short while. The results from the upcoming elections will at least guide the direction of the country for a few more years.


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## marenostrum

MensEtManus said:


> Then you'll get the no alcohol so goodbye young love partying concept. Egypt attracts around 13 million folks. Saudi attracts around 6 million folks during umrah.
> 
> I guess we'll find it out what happens in only a short while. The results from the upcoming elections will at least guide the direction of the country for a few more years.


As far as tourism goes they are losing out because the service they offer is poor.

I can go to malaysia for two weeks, be treated like a king in true five star resorts, no ripping off, no stomach bug, i can do what i want within reason ie walk my my GF without being stared at, and i pay the same i pay for two weeks in egypt. Bear in mind malaysia is muslim too.

They are just not providing a good standard.

As far as the other stuff goes i would not worry too much, alchol and other stuff will still be available. They'll preach as much as they want but behind closed doors everything will still go on, as it does now really.


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## Sam

My personal opinion is that whatever power came to be they would do all that they can to ensure tourism is not negatively affected. It is one of the highest sources of income to the country, provides thousands of jobs, on a mere political level they would be fools not to be putting money back into the industry to improve the standards.

Egypt will always remain one of the few places in the world where you can guarantee sunshine. I would also say one of the best dive locations too, but my understanding is that poor maintenance of tourism is killing that too.

I agree that other countries, most notably in the far east, you can get cheap holidays like Egypt and you can get a true 5* service. Although I would say you can still get ripped off in the markets there, but you do NOT get hassled, no where near the same extent anyway. The cost of living is low and (in my experience at least) there isn't a separate price for tourists. Locals are genuinely pleased to see you and nothing is too much trouble. BUT, the climate is extremely humid, particularly around monsoon season, and whilst you can guarantee heat at most times of the year, you cannot guarantee sun. And from Europe it is a long flight. These are the reasons Egypt will always be a great choice, simply the location and climate. Now the people have to make an effort to match others in their hospitality and attitude.


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## marenostrum

Sam said:


> My personal opinion is that whatever power came to be they would do all that they can to ensure tourism is not negatively affected. It is one of the highest sources of income to the country, provides thousands of jobs, on a mere political level they would be fools not to be putting money back into the industry to improve the standards.
> 
> Egypt will always remain one of the few places in the world where you can guarantee sunshine. I would also say one of the best dive locations too, but my understanding is that poor maintenance of tourism is killing that too.
> 
> I agree that other countries, most notably in the far east, you can get cheap holidays like Egypt and you can get a true 5* service. Although I would say you can still get ripped off in the markets there, but you do NOT get hassled, no where near the same extent anyway. The cost of living is low and (in my experience at least) there isn't a separate price for tourists. Locals are genuinely pleased to see you and nothing is too much trouble. BUT, the climate is extremely humid, particularly around monsoon season, and whilst you can guarantee heat at most times of the year, you cannot guarantee sun. And from Europe it is a long flight. These are the reasons Egypt will always be a great choice, simply the location and climate. Now the people have to make an effort to match others in their hospitality and attitude.


Well imho they have killed many of the snorkelling / diving locations. My first time in sharm was in 1992 and there were only seven hotels there at the time and you could snorkel around soft coral just off the beach (Fayrouz Hilton). I dread to think what is left of the coral reef there now.

Marsa is still nice but even there they are doing everything they can to ruin it. I mean they have something like 500 people a day touring one location to see the turtles and the dugong in the bay. These are animals that thrive in peaceful locations and yet they organize trips for 500 people. what a joke. 

Also the divemaster, rotfl, they bring these underwater cameras and they stick them right in front of the poor animals face to take the pic so they can then make a dvd to sell to the tourist who has been on the trip. They don't give a you know what about the environment. For one i won't be going there again.

Also how thick can they be, why not put ropes around ALL coral reefs so it is more difficult for idiotic tourists to walk on the reefs.

imho give it ten years and the red sea will be like benidorm and i am not talking about the tv series here....


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## Eco-Mariner

Tourism had its prime-time when scuba was discovered, the reefs were virgin and the fishing villages were just that. Now these pockets of local inhabitants have become tourist towns attracting all the bad elements of greed and destruction.

The authorities had a plan to regulate these locations, but as workers aspired to higher incomes (through servicing the tourists) they too became visitors and replicated their bad habits and standards. We saw foreign tourists copy them and after a few years each village became a rubbish dump, each local reef decimated.... The managers couldn't give a damn about regulations and rules. Construction boomed but services deminished.

If Sharia law bans drink, and generally having fun, those town will become derelict and the habitats unhabitable. No new investment means no maintenance... No standards, no tourists and no real income.... The once busy industry will dry up as revenue fails to keep the locals in business.

A $70 billion annual tourism turnover will be lost as the major International Hoteliers and Hospitality Companies withdraw their operation, leaving tour operators no alternative than fly elsewhere.

Is that what Egypt wants from its new Political Islamic State?
I've stated before, Egypt has no other bread-winner; no oil like Iran or Saudi Arabia, Qutar or the Emirates. 
It only has the Red Sea, its history and easy access to the sun.
The voters have to think seriously about going backwards to Iranian type Sharia laws and restrictions that will kill any form of sustainable tourism in the long term. Those relying on feeding their families will remember the exodus from Giza Pyramids and must now understand how easy it is to lose their livelyhoods.


Alan.
Coralife-Style Consultants.


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## marenostrum

Eco-Mariner said:


> Tourism had its prime-time when scuba was discovered, the reefs were virgin and the fishing villages were just that. Now these pockets of local inhabitants have become tourist towns attracting all the bad elements of greed and destruction.
> 
> The authorities had a plan to regulate these locations, but as workers aspired to higher incomes (through servicing the tourists) they too became visitors and replicated their bad habits and standards. We saw foreign tourists copy them and after a few years each village became a rubbish dump, each local reef decimated.... The managers couldn't give a damn about regulations and rules. Construction boomed but services deminished.
> 
> If Sharia law bans drink, and generally having fun, those town will become derelict and the habitats unhabitable. No new investment means no maintenance... No standards, no tourists and no real income.... The once busy industry will dry up as revenue fails to keep the locals in business.
> 
> A $70 billion annual tourism turnover will be lost as the major International Hoteliers and Hospitality Companies withdraw their operation, leaving tour operators no alternative than fly elsewhere.
> 
> Is that what Egypt wants from its new Political Islamic State?
> I've stated before, Egypt has no other bread-winner; no oil like Iran or Saudi Arabia, Qutar or the Emirates.
> It only has the Red Sea, its history and easy access to the sun.
> The voters have to think seriously about going backwards to Iranian type Sharia laws and restrictions that will kill any form of sustainable tourism in the long term. Those relying on feeding their families will remember the exodus from Giza Pyramids and must now understand how easy it is to lose their livelyhoods.
> 
> 
> Alan.
> Coralife-Style Consultants.


well as far as i am concernen i'm never setting foot in the red sea again after what they have done to the environment.
Another great one is when the builders just keep throwing the rubble on the reefs. Sometimes when you snorkle you can find a whole DIY store amongst the dead corals and it is not the russian tourists doing this.


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## GM1

*Manpower Ministry revises work permits for foreigners*

Minister of Manpower Ahmed Hassan al-Borai, in press statements on Sunday, said the ministry is revising the conditions for granting work permits to foreigners.

“Permits would only be given for qualifications lacked by Egyptian laborers,” he said. “And qualified foreigners will have to train their Egyptian counterparts.”

Al-Borai also said permits would be granted for a *maximum of three years*.

http://www.almasryalyoum.com/en/node/394411


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