# Self-employed US Citizen looking to immigrate to France



## 314

Apologies if this is commonly asked, but everyone's situation seems a little different and some of the posts I've found have been dated and I'm not sure how relevant they remain.

Background:

Unmarried American Citizen currently self-employed by an LLC taxed as an S-Corp
I work as a freelance Software Developer
I have a single non-US, non-EU client that pays my LLC and in turn my LLC pays me via payroll/W2
Seeking to move to France for at least 1 year, but if that goes well, ideally longer with the possibility of eventually pursuing residency/citizenship
I would intend to keep this working arrangement with the client and ideally not have to dissolve my LLC if after 1 year I've come to the conclusion I don't want to stay in France
Nowhere near retirement age

I'm attempting to form together a reasonable idea of what my path forward looks like, but as this is seemingly a very complex process and not something I have any experience with, I'm quite in the dark and it's easy to find misleading/conflicting information online

I intend to hire/retain an Immigration Attorney and Accountant with an understanding of both countries, but right now I don't feel informed enough to take that step. I'm hoping to work out roughly what to expect and make sure I present things correctly to them and understand where the complexities may arise.

I've been led to believe the "Independent Professional" visa is the most straightforward as it can be granted without the need for an existing French bank account and is easier to attain. But there seem to be quite a few different work visas including the "talents" visas

My primary concerns/inquiries:

Is it feasible to retain my US LLC and the Client paying it, with me paying myself or invoicing myself for services while working in France
If so, my understanding is I'd still need to claim all income in France, but how would that work for funds in the business that aren't drawn
If not, what path would be the least impactful to my current setup if after 12 months I consider it a nice visit, but decide not to pursue anything longer
If I'm living in France, do I need to worry about US Bank accounts, Credit Cards, Brokerage accounts, SEP-IRA accounts, other threads have mentioned issues with these
Where would lines be drawn as far as income and how would moving funds between any of the above non-French accounts or to a French account work
Since I only have a single client, do I need to worry about being seen as circumventing any visa restrictions or tax laws under a work visa

Thanks in advance for any help. I realize I'm asking a lot.


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## Bevdeforges

You could be entering a real mine field here - not because it can't be done, but because the way you're hoping to do things could get super complicated. Basically, there is no real "self-employment" here in France. What they do have is a real alphabet soup of business entities - several of which are "single owner" entities where you usually have the option to either declare the earnings of the business on your personal income tax forms, or you can have the entity pay its own taxes and just pay yourself a salary (which is sort of what it sounds like you're doing with the LLC set-up). To keep the LLC intact, you probably would have to register a "branch" of the LLC in France or else register the LLC as a French employer with no French presence. That's primarily for payment of the employee social charges. 

The other big factor to consider is that, as a US citizen, you wind up filing full regular (i.e. "resident") taxes in both the US and France. There is a treaty that defines what income and how to claim credits or other means of avoiding double taxation on the same income. However, you do have to declare your worldwide income to both tax systems. You would also be responsible for the tax declarations and filings for the business entity you establish here in France, which potentially includes income and business taxes plus "cotisations" - i.e. the social insurances and other "payroll taxes." 

Moving funds between countries is actually pretty easy these days, using something like Wise or Revolut, but you will need to have a French bank account for your day to day needs, and one for your business entity. You'll need to report your US accounts to the French Fisc, and your foreign (i.e. French) accounts to the US (FATCA and possibly other reports for your interests in a "foreign corporation").

Not trying to discourage you, but you do want to be aware of the level of paperwork and bureaucracy you could be getting yourself into - especially if you want to be able to chuck it all after that initial year. You may prefer to do a couple of "extended vacations" (i.e. up to 90 days using a Schengen visa) first to scout out the territory and get a feel for how working from France works. (You could also visit one of the Chambre de Commerce et d'Industrie - the CCI) to explore what services they have available to help you understand how to set up a French branch or business entity here.


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## EuroTrash

It may be worth exploring the salarial/umbrella company route, where basically you have an employment contract with the PS company and they pay you a salary, with payroll taxes deducted and all; and they have a supply contract with your client and invoice the client for the services you provide. They may even agree to treat your US company as the client if you wanted to keep it in the loop. 
I don't know how that arrangement would mesh with your visa application though.


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## Bevdeforges

EuroTrash said:


> I don't know how that arrangement would mesh with your visa application though.


Aye, there's the rub! You need to give some thought to your "reason" for applying for a long-stay visa (with working privileges). You could take a look at the "passeport talent" visa, though that's more for those who are looking to set up an innovate company here in France or those with a hi-tech background and/or rather substantial salary. Take a look at the government site on the program: Talents internationaux | France-Visas.gouv.fr


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## 314

Thanks both of you for your replies.



Bevdeforges said:


> You could be entering a real mine field here - not because it can't be done, but because the way you're hoping to do things could get super complicated.


I guess it's reassuring that it is possible, just complex, but, yeah, I assume redirecting my client to pay me in France and to get rid of my LLC or change it to a C-Corp is the simpler approach? (My current understanding is if I were living in France I wouldn't be able to own/operate an American S-Corp)

Would this arrangement of a single client paying me lead to complications as I don't currently have multiple clients and the hours I work for this client being non-conducive to taking on others? I'd also expect them to continue paying in USD, even if paying me directly in France, not sure if that further complicates it.

I'm aware of both countries taxing on global income and my perma-requirement to file US taxes. I'm also definitely expecting this to be an expensive change, both with the larger French tax burden, social contributions, and whatever taxes wouldn't be credited in the US.



Bevdeforges said:


> You may prefer to do a couple of "extended vacations" (i.e. up to 90 days using a Schengen visa) first to scout out the territory and get a feel for how working from France works. (You could also visit one of the Chambre de Commerce et d'Industrie - the CCI)


I have done a couple extended holidays in France in years prior to the pandemic, so I kinda have an idea of what it would be like being there. But, that's also partly why I want to pursue this, as I'd like to spend a longer duration in France and experience actually living and working there and not just a few weeks/couple of months as a tourist traveling around multiple areas. I've never engaged with a CCI while there, however.

I'm also not expecting to chuck it in after a year, but I do want to plan for both eventualities. I've visited France multiple times and various different areas and enjoyed my time immensly, but there is a big difference between being a Tourist and living, working, and trying to integrate into a community, and I could always find it to be too much or end up missing the US, etc.



EuroTrash said:


> It may be worth exploring the salarial/umbrella company route, where basically you have an employment contract with the PS company and they pay you a salary, with payroll taxes deducted and all; and they have a supply contract with your client and invoice the client for the services you provide.


I've seen this option, and it seems like it would simplify things, but at an additional cost. Which may be worth it, depending on my options, but adding an unknown intermediary into the mix does give me initial pause.



Bevdeforges said:


> You could take a look at the "passeport talent" visa, though that's more for those who are looking to set up an innovate company here in France or those with a hi-tech background and/or rather substantial salary


I'm not sure what would qualify as "hi-tech", but I do work in tech and I also have a substantial income from my consulting. My concern here would also be the single-client setup I have currently. Not sure if it's founded, but from the various info I've found online I have a fear this will be problematic for me.


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## 255

@314 -- What you propose is certainly doable. Since you are unsure of the length of your stay, I concur with @EuroTrash's recommendation to utilize a staffing company (or possibly a French "portage" company) to contract with your LLC for your services, while living in France. The staffing company would become your employer of record for French tax purposes (also allowing you to deduct your now French salary against your U.S. income taxes utilizing the FEIE or the FTC.) You will certainly need a French bank account, but no need for a French business account -- the LLC can transfer funds directly to the staffing company.

If you ultimately make the decision to stay in France long term (say you meet, fall in love and marry a French woman,) then you could also form a new French entity that would replace the staffing company as your employer. There have been a few threads on this subject in the last 6 months.

I do not believe you need to hire an attorney nor an accountant. Nothing really changes for the LLC's taxes, except you're living in France. Your U.S. and French taxes are fairly straight forward (at least until, or if, you decide to form a French company.) 

You would need to treat your LLC as a totally separate entity to yourself, for French tax purposes -- in other words you'd need to report your ownership interests, but whatever happens within the business is the business' business. The salary that is paid you is what you'll owe taxes on. The LLC will pay it's taxes to the U.S. and possibly state(s) that it is doing business

If you do decide to leave France and return to the U.S., you'd simply cancel the LLC's contract, with the staffing company, and restart your routine U.S. payroll.

As far as U.S. accounts, a lot of banks/financial firms do not like working with expats. I'd recommend contracting with a U.S. based mail forwarding firm (preferably in a non-tax state) and change the address for all of your accounts now (so you can fix any "bugs" before the move (FL seems to be the current favorite.) You can only contribute to your SEP-IRA with earnings that are not "excluded," so you have a few choices: most common is to simply stop contributions, alternatively, you can make contributions for earnings that are over the FEIE limit (currently $122K,) or you could pay yourself for work while physically in the U.S. (prior to/after your return) your move or possibly working vacations for long term stays.)

I'm not sure about your "lines be drawn" question. Both the U.S. and France tax world-wide income. I mentioned before the FEIE limit, which would exclude your now French salary, up to those limits, from the IRS. In order to minimize your French taxes -- you could minimize your salary, but dependent on your desired visa, you'll need to bring in one to three times the French SMIC to qualify.) See the passport talent link @Bevdeforges' provided. Funds transfer is not hard, as has been previously discussed -- wires are another possibility. Most everything is done by direct transfer in Europe, so your LLC will transfer funds (for your salary and staffing fees) to your new French employer who will in turn direct transfer your salary (minus tax and social insurance deductions) to your French bank account where you'll have automatic draws for rent/mortgage and utilities. You'll have credit/debit cards for the rest. 

France has the same employee/contractor laws that the U.S. does. So having only one client could cause suspicions if you formed a French single member entity to operate out of. Remember in your case, treat your LLC as a separate entity. You are an employee -- how the LLC gets it's income is it's business.

I'll respond to your second post in a new post.


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## 255

@314 -- Repapering your LLC to a C Corp (preferably WY,) would make sense, if you want to to stay in France (there would be zero tax questions that might occur with an LLC.) All that would be reported to the French taxman would be your ownership of foreign shares. Alternatively, you could keep the LLC (maybe repaper in WY,) and form a new holding C Corp. that would be the 100% owner of the LLC (you could also go further and make the C Corp 100% owned by a trust.) In any event, a C Corp. is definitely cleaner than your current scenario. The number one reason for utilizing S Corp. taxation is to reduce FICA -- not an issue if your working in France -- you will be paying social insurance to France. Anything extra could be retained earnings or paid into retirement plans if you do some work in the U.S. proper. You could certainly run your current LLC, as I discussed in my previous post, but it might not be as clean long term -- you just need to "separate" yourself from the entity.

I'm sure you read some of the previous threads on this subject, but your client paying you, in France, is problematic, as the employer portion for social insurance is significantly higher than the U.S. and them paying you directly to an EIRL will bring up the single client issue, employee/contractor issue. Of course, I guess you could hedge this issue by additionally contracting with your new C Corp. as a client.

If you went the staffing company/umbrella company (portage) route initially -- you can always change it to your new French company, if you decide to stay later (after you've better learned the reporting requirements. You could also form a new French company, that perhaps is a wholly owned subsidiary of your U.S. C Corp. You could designate this new French company a disregarded entity for U.S. tax purposes, reducing your U.S. reporting burden for the French company. There was a poster , a short time ago, that formed a French "branch" of his U.S. company.

As mentioned previously, have gander at the passport talent site. You can structure yourself now to meet both your life in France with one of the dozen or so passport talent visa/resident permits (these are also good for up to four years and are renewable. As long as you're working, as an employee, of an U.S. company -- the single client thing is a non-issue. Remember to keep yourself and your company separate -- do not let your company be an alter-ego of yourself! Cheers, 255


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## 255

@314 -- Nobody mentioned VAT (value added tax,) but that will need to be paid -- so you should factor that into your planning. Cheers, 255


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## Bevdeforges

255 said:


> @314 -- Nobody mentioned VAT (value added tax,) but that will need to be paid -- so you should factor that into your planning. Cheers, 255


Good point - didn't think of that. With any sort of single owner company, you will definitely wind up having to charge your client 20% VAT on all billings. But you should definitely consider using the portage company, that gives you a bit of time to consider what sort of business entity you'd want to set up here (and the time to consult with the CCI while you're at it). However one potential hurdle could be the issue of whether or not a portage company can "sponsor" your visa application unless you go for the passeport talent option. Would check with one or two portage companies to see what they can or can't do. The issue comes back to the all-important "reason" you give for moving to France. Normally your employer would have to justify an internal company transfer or show justification for your working from France, which could be tricky unless you have some plans to expand your client base a bit.

One quick observation - France isn't nearly as "brutal" on its taxpayers holding "foreign" stocks as the US is on "certain controlled foreign corporations" and other foreign investments that will get you all tied up in IRS paperwork and possibly additional taxes.


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## ARPC

What is it you want to be doing in France that cannot be done better somewhere else? Many countries are easier for this kind of set-up, France is organized so that people generally do not work the way that you’re working. I know 50 dudes in the bay who do what you do, and zero here, and it’s for good reason. Bev’s advice to try a few 90 day stays in advance is very solid, you can see what it is like to actually do your work for an extended period here. I spent two and a half years alternating between here and the US every 3 months prior to staying permanently, and it would not have been possible to finally decide to and then execute the move without the knowledge and connections I made over those years. There may be a better route for you if you have a solid, compelling reason to want to be in a particular part of France. If you’re interested in studying language, or are into parapente or bergerie or some activity that is best practiced in France, your options might expand considerably. Lawyers and accountants are not going to be able to help you if you don’t have what it takes to type of resident permit you want. I’ve used both, in france and from the us, and they’re not magic against the French administration machine. They can’t do almost any of the work for you, and employing them doesn’t lessen your load of paperwork and education.


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## 314

255 said:


> Nobody mentioned VAT (value added tax,) but that will need to be paid


So as a single owner company, I'd need to pay VAT regardless of the approach taken, even if the invoice is to a non French company as the services are rendered in France? I was potentially under the mistaken understanding that VAT didn't apply to "exported" services.



255 said:


> I concur with @EuroTrash's recommendation to utilize a staffing company (or possibly a French "portage" company) to contract with your LLC for your services, while living in France. The staffing company would become your employer of record for French tax purposes (also allowing you to deduct your now French salary against your U.S. income taxes utilizing the FEIE or the FTC.) You will certainly need a French bank account, but no need for a French business account -- the LLC can transfer funds directly to the staffing company.





Bevdeforges said:


> However one potential hurdle could be the issue of whether or not a portage company can "sponsor" your visa application unless you go for the passeport talent option


This approach seems quite straightforward and reasonable on the surface, but then if the "portage" company would need to sponsor my Visa and all the extra requirements of no other EU residents being able to do the job, etc would come into play? The "talent" passports would be able to be done on my own and still be able to contract with a "portage" company as 255 suggests?




ARPC said:


> What is it you want to be doing in France that cannot be done better somewhere else?





ARPC said:


> Bev’s advice to try a few 90 day stays in advance is very solid, you can see what it is like to actually do your work for an extended period here. I spent two and a half years alternating between here and the US every 3 months prior to staying permanently


Yeah, at it's core, it's personal desire more than anything. There are many things I like about Europe in general and more specifically with France, it's the country I've visited the most and feel the strongest connection to. I really want to become more proficient in French and the best place to do that is in a French speaking country. I have done a couple 2-3 month summer vacations in the years before COVID, travelling around Europe, but predominantly France. However, they were more vacation trips and getting a general feel for things rather than making contacts and actively planning anything.

As I want to be able to retain my current contract and continue to work; longer, alternating stays like that seem like they wouldn't be advisable. I know "digital nomads" are often a "don't ask, don't tell" situation, but I can only imagine that would lead to at the very least suspicion if not outright problems if it's a targeted stay and not just passing through and traveling while on vacation.

----

But, thanks everyone for your detailed responses. It at least helps paint a better picture of the landscape. Looking into the talents visa may be a good idea and maybe I should take a step back and try to plan some vacation travel time in the not too distant future where I reach out to places like the CCI and maybe any potential other contacts to work out a more concrete plan for an eventual visa application.


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## Bevdeforges

314 said:


> So as a single owner company, I'd need to pay VAT regardless of the approach taken, even if the invoice is to a non French company as the services are rendered in France? I was potentially under the mistaken understanding that VAT didn't apply to "exported" services.


This is one area where VAT does vary from US sales tax by a rather large amount. Sales of merchandise that are exported are free of VAT - however the buyer has to get validation from the customs office to prove that the merchandise has actually left the country.

For services, VAT is charged based on the country in which the service was actually performed, so in your case, France. The only way around this would be to return to the US to perform your services at your client's premises. But if you do the work in France, then you have to charge the VAT on your invoice.


314 said:


> This approach seems quite straightforward and reasonable on the surface, but then if the "portage" company would need to sponsor my Visa and all the extra requirements of no other EU residents being able to do the job, etc would come into play? The "talent" passports would be able to be done on my own and still be able to contract with a "portage" company as 255 suggests?


That's precisely the thing I am unsure about when using a portage company. In other cases we've had through the forum of non-EU nationals using a portage company it's usually someone who has a visa with working privileges (say, someone married to a French national). The passeport talent visa might be your best bet - but it puts a bit more pressure on you to be bringing some innovative service to France with a view to eventually setting up a French business and extending your client base to more than that one customer and/or expanding your business to something potentially hiring and training a few French employees in the business.


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## tardigrade

What about Canada for your French learning? Plus, supposedly it is the real French or "old French".
Might also be easier for the visa..


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## JayBee1

tardigrade said:


> What about Canada for your French learning? Plus, supposedly it is the real French or "old French".
> Might also be easier for the visa..


As a French speaking Canadian, 98% of the official written/administartion language is the same. The difference is often a regional accent or a few different turns of phrases. No difference then English.


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## tardigrade

JayBee1 said:


> As a French speaking Canadian, 98% of the official written/administartion language is the same. The difference is often a regional accent or a few different turns of phrases. No difference then English.


I can just remember the French putting sub titles on a French Canadian tv series..


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## BoilingFrog

tardigrade said:


> I can just remember the French putting sub titles on a French Canadian tv series..


Probably just deleting the 'eh?'s


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## JayBee1

BoilingFrog said:


> Probably just deleting the 'eh?'s


That's a Canadianism!!! ;-)
Now, if you said "Ma blonde" instead of "Ma copine"...well, welcome to francophone Canada!


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## Bevdeforges

tardigrade said:


> I can just remember the French putting sub titles on a French Canadian tv series..


Haven't checked lately, but TV5 (now called TV5 Monde) is alive and well and most likely still subtitling Canadian TV shows and films. I remember one Canadian police show, where the character said "Sh!t !!" and it was subtitled as "Merde !) Like that needs to be translated.... but hey, that's how they do it. I also recall a comedy series from Canada that they subtitled, and it's a good thing they did. Lots of Canadian slang (apparently) and the actors spoke way too fast to be able to make much sense of what they were saying.


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## JayBee1

Bevdeforges said:


> Haven't checked lately, but TV5 (now called TV5 Monde) is alive and well and most likely still subtitling Canadian TV shows and films. I remember one Canadian police show, where the character said "Sh!t !!" and it was subtitled as "Merde !) Like that needs to be translated.... but hey, that's how they do it. I also recall a comedy series from Canada that they subtitled, and it's a good thing they did. Lots of Canadian slang (apparently) and the actors spoke way too fast to be able to make much sense of what they were saying.


Hahaha. Having said that, I need the subtitles for "English " Scottish TV!!


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## tardigrade

JayBee1 said:


> Hahaha. Having said that, I need the subtitles for "English " Scottish TV!!


Trailer park boys was and still is kinda the same for me...


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