# Too much doom and gloom!!



## Rabbitcat

Reading across many Spanish forums its sad that there oft seems to be relish in the endless doom and gloom many posters put across

Yes, don't go there if you need to work and yes rent before you buy and make sure you stay 180 days in your car before you take health insurance and 90 days before you pay tax on your imported pets or whatever- BUT ffs reading some posts its sounds more like Aleppo than Andalucia 

Chill, enjoy the best of new experiences, foods, people, places,culture, sun and sand. You're a long time dead


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## jojo

Rabbitcat said:


> Reading across many Spanish forums its sad that there oft seems to be relish in the endless doom and gloom many posters put across
> 
> Yes, don't go there if you need to work and yes rent before you buy and make sure you stay 180 days in your car before you take health insurance and 90 days before you pay tax on your imported pets or whatever- BUT ffs reading some posts its sounds more like Aleppo than Andalucia
> 
> Chill, enjoy the best of new experiences, foods, people, places,culture, sun and sand. You're a long time dead


While I do agree with you to a point, it's very much an issue of trying to put realism into peoples dreams. So many people still believe that they can arrive in spain, forget taxes and healthcare, get a job, get a villa, send their kids seamlessly to a school up the road and live the dream. It may have been like that once, but spain isn't that easy anymore. So we're simply pointing put the potential pitfalls.

Apart from that - yes, go for it!!!

Jo xxx

Sent from my D5803 using Expat Forum


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## Rabbitcat

Yeah but that's nothing to do with Spain specifically

You cannot expect what you list off ANY country.

Yes there are people with their head in the clouds- no matter what you tell them wont matter anyway- but as regards Spain itself if you keep to the basics of dont need to work/ rent first- it's nowhere near as depressing a place as some enjoy making up


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## Justina

*Doom and gloom*



Rabbitcat said:


> Reading across many Spanish forums its sad that there oft seems to be relish in the endless doom and gloom many posters put across
> 
> Yes, don't go there if you need to work and yes rent before you buy and make sure you stay 180 days in your car before you take health insurance and 90 days before you pay tax on your imported pets or whatever- BUT ffs reading some posts its sounds more like Aleppo than Andalucia
> 
> Chill, enjoy the best of new experiences, foods, people, places,culture, sun and sand. You're a long time dead


I rarely look at other forums but with this one it would be very mean spirited to 'relish' doom and gloom, which this one doesn't do.
Since there is a steady stream of newbies asking for help then I think it is great that some posters are willing to answer the same old questions.
While Spain is only two hours away from the UK, for many people it is a big step, especially when some would sell up and flop onto a Spanish beach without a bit of thought beforehand. Or invest in a house which turns out to be in the sticks with one bus in and out and a hospital many miles away. Or the people who will just 'pick up' the lingo once they are here. Well and good luck with that.
A bit of caution is not a bad thing.


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## Rabbitcat

Sigh, ok I give up


Spain twinned with Syria........


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## Naomira

I don't think people intend to be negative, but you're far more likely to have a successful move if you're aware of the pitfalls beforehand. I'm speaking from experience. I was encouraged to move by someone who got me an apartment and told me everything would be fine if I just came. It wasn't. If I'd prepared better, I'd still be in Spain. As it is, I'll probably have to wait until I retire to move back as I'm unlikely to get work at my age. Realistic advice is necessary for anyone thinking of moving to Spain or any other country.


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## Rabbitcat

With all due respect- got you an apartment, everything will be just fine!!!!

If that's the sort of diligence you extend to a move abroad its hard to have empathy let alone sympathy if it didn't work out


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## Lynn R

I'm no fan of excessive negativity or knocking Spain and the Spanish at every opportunity - it's a great place to live IF you don't need to find work. However, it's not utopia and nowhere on earth is perfect. There are things which are annoying in Spain (the present fiasco re providing ID to banks being a prime example) and others which are plain wrong (corruption in politics and business, and the situation regarding illegal houses which was allowed to develop) and I think we are quite right to criticise them.

With all due respect (to coin a phrase) you don't live here, or even want to chance get your fingers burned by buyinig a property hre if you eventually do take the plunge and more here for however many days a year it may be. Perhaps if you'd spent several years living here ful time you might be more ready to see the total picture, warts and all. 

Try having a young father of three knock on your door, totally embarrassed and with tears in his eyes, asking if you can help him out as they have no food for the children and he only has €3 and needs another €3. It happened to us just a couple of days ago, and its a stark reminder of just how hard life is for many people here who aren't as fortunate as we are.


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## Rabbitcat

Yip its a hell hole No one should live there etc etc

There are no poor people, pointless bureaucracy etc in any other countries. Get real

As regards my own situ I am entirely consistent . I agree with the rent/no work needed approach but am not into either overly pessimistic rants nor self important lecturing.

Its a beautiful place which requires the same due diligence as anywhere else. Period


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## Naomira

Yes, I got advice from the wrong person who didn't explain things to me. He and his wife offered to help me with work and other aspects of the move. None of these materialised when I got there. I accept that I got help from the wrong people which is why I joined this forum. The advice is good if you want to take it. It's your choice.


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## Lynn R

Rabbitcat said:


> Yip its a hell hole No one should live there etc etc
> 
> There are no poor people, pointless bureaucracy etc in any other countries. Get real
> 
> As regards my own situ I am entirely consistent . I agree with the rent/no work needed approach but am not into either overly pessimistic rants nor self important lecturing.
> 
> Its a beautiful place which requires the same due diligence as anywhere else. Period


I do live here, and I like living here. I even bought a house to live in, and if I wanted to move I'd buy again.

The point is, if people think they'll escape all or some of the things they don't like about their own country by coming to Spain, they may be in for a rude awakening if nobody has told them that they may encounter the same things, or worse, when they get here.

A typical pair of clueless expats (who think they have it all sussed) arrived here a few months ago. Below retirement age, no particular in-demand skills to speak of, but confident of being able to find work because they're "willing to turn their hand to anything". So far she's done some work for fellow expat busiiness owners who failed to pay her, they've had a fellow expat try to borrow money from them, she's on lifetime medication and is convinced she can get them free in Spain (good luck with that one) and appear to be spending a large part of their time lunching out and joining in expat drinking sessions. I give them until Christmas before the penny drops.


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## Rabbitcat

Fair points and fair warning but again the type of people who would just turn up no work, no lingo etc - expecting to get everything on a plate wont listen to advice anyway, plus they will be lost in any country on the planet- not just Spain


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## jojo

Rabbitcat said:


> With all due respect- got you an apartment, everything will be just fine!!!!
> 
> If that's the sort of diligence you extend to a move abroad its hard to have empathy let alone sympathy if it didn't work out


But thats the point. Back here in the UK, people still think that Spain, in particular is easy. Even now, when I tell people here in the UK, we lived there for 5 years, but had to return, they nearly always say "why did you come back, its so lovely in Spain, all that sun and relaxed attitude" When I explain how things really are in Spain, I'm sure they think I'm lying lol.

For whatever reason, many people really do believe that moving to Spain is the easy option. Just pick up sticks and go..... done! Unlike any other country.

At least if we can get those people thinking and maybe questioning..........BEFORE they burn their bridges. 



Jo xxx


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## Tigerlillie

Lynn R said:


> A typical pair of clueless expats (who think they have it all sussed) arrived here a few months ago. Below retirement age, no particular in-demand skills to speak of, but confident of being able to find work because they're "willing to turn their hand to anything". So far she's done some work for fellow expat busiiness owners who failed to pay her, they've had a fellow expat try to borrow money from them, she's on lifetime medication and is convinced she can get them free in Spain (good luck with that one) and appear to be spending a large part of their time lunching out and joining in expat drinking sessions. I give them until Christmas before the penny drops.


Although the unemployment rate in france is not so bad as spain and after 5 years of residency there is the welfare safety net if you are willing to really fight them to get anywhere people will still go there as described above, I know of a couple of expat couples like that and one half of one couple is already commuting back and forth instead of 'living the dream' because they can't afford to live here full time on fresh air.


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## tonymar

Rabbitcat said:


> Reading across many Spanish forums its sad that there oft seems to be relish in the endless doom and gloom many posters put across
> 
> Yes, don't go there if you need to work and yes rent before you buy and make sure you stay 180 days in your car before you take health insurance and 90 days before you pay tax on your imported pets or whatever- BUT ffs reading some posts its sounds more like Aleppo than Andalucia
> 
> Chill, enjoy the best of new experiences, foods, people, places,culture, sun and sand. You're a long time dead



Yes rabbit loads of negative stuff

I prefer to live for the day !! as you say your a long time dead .

Some times I feel people sit on the fence , and only dream of making the move

My attitude when coming over was , just go for it , whats the worst that can happen ?

you could loose some money , not like it here I suppose

At least if you try you will know for sure one way or another if its for you or not !!

12 YEARS here and still happy !!

Tony Agost Alicante


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## Tigerlillie

Rabbitcat and tonymar, I agree with both of you but to be fair I have found that mostly the only negative responses seem to be directed towards people that just want to up sticks and come here on a whim that just don't have a clue. That is just not feasible, not in any country and certainly not in one that has over 25% of the working age population unemployed and without a welfare system (not even for it's own indigenous people let alone immigrants) that the UK has. Yes by all means come over and see how you like it but NOT if you have very little or no money to support yourself, a spouse or partner and/or a troop of kids and you need to find work or you want to run a bar/start a construction/building/plumbing/electrician or any other kind of business. If that's how you're thinking you're going to make your dreams come true then you're living in cloud cuckoo land.


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## Alcalaina

Rabbitcat said:


> Reading across many Spanish forums its sad that there oft seems to be relish in the endless doom and gloom many posters put across
> 
> Yes, don't go there if you need to work and yes rent before you buy and make sure you stay 180 days in your car before you take health insurance and 90 days before you pay tax on your imported pets or whatever- BUT ffs reading some posts its sounds more like Aleppo than Andalucia
> 
> Chill, enjoy the best of new experiences, foods, people, places,culture, sun and sand. You're a long time dead


I think those doom-and-gloom posts are mainly from people who retired to the Costas expecting life to be one long holiday, and either ran out of funds or lack the imagination to get off their a*ses and find something interesting to occupy themselves with. 

When they spend a lot of time with others in the same boat, whether in the bar or online, the negativity carries on on spiralling downwards until it almost becomes a contest for who has the most to moan about.

Thank goodness for all us positive upbeat folks here on the EF! :lol:


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## jojo

tonymar said:


> Yes rabbit loads of negative stuff
> 
> I prefer to live for the day !! as you say your a long time dead .
> 
> Some times I feel people sit on the fence , and only dream of making the move
> 
> My attitude when coming over was , just go for it , whats the worst that can happen ?
> 
> you could loose some money , not like it here I suppose
> 
> At least if you try you will know for sure one way or another if its for you or not !!
> 
> 12 YEARS here and still happy !!
> 
> Tony Agost Alicante



So someone sells their UK home, or gives up their tenancy, they give up their UK job. Pack up a few belongings, take their kids out of their school and move to Spain - that in itself is very costly. They take on a long term rental, put the kids in school and then realise - they've got no healthcare and no income, so they cant become "residents". They look for work...... they cant find any, they become ill and have no healthcare, meanwhile they still have to pay rent and bills - all of this costs money. In the end, they return to the UK.................oooops, no home, no job, no money cos they blew it all in Spain..............

I have seen this happen many times. 

Jo xxx


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## Rabbitcat

If they act in the manner you set out- with no due diligence, checking healthcare, school situ, finances etc before leaving and moving abroad to ANY country- they shouldn't be allowed out alone let alone be in a position to emigrate 

Why does no one want to take responsibility for their own actions anymore


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## jojo

Rabbitcat said:


> If they act in the manner you set out- with no due diligence, checking healthcare, school situ, finances etc before leaving and moving abroad to ANY country- they shouldn't be allowed out alone let alone be in a position to emigrate
> 
> Why does no one want to take responsibility for their own actions anymore


A couple of decades ago, it used to be like this. I also know folk who did it way back in the 80s, they set up businesses and thrived. I guess it was because in those days, Spain was "up and coming" a new holiday destination. Having just a come out of the Franco years, there was lots to be done and they needed the Brits to come and populate and help out???!!

Thats the problem as I see it. It is still thought of as easy to do. Go to Spain, get a little job and live happily everafter. I think its possibly the only place that has the reputation for being able to do this - and thats the problem, things have changed.


Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> Yeah but that's nothing to do with Spain specifically
> 
> You cannot expect what you list off ANY country.
> 
> Yes there are people with their head in the clouds- no matter what you tell them wont matter anyway- but as regards Spain itself *if you keep to the basics of dont need to work/ rent first*- it's nowhere near as depressing a place as some enjoy making up


I enjoy your posts, like this one but can't really get what you're on about, especially in view of what you said that I've highlighted, which is what most of us say, don't we?

Just lately I've given up on advising seemingly hopeless cases to stay in Barnsley or wherever where they have jobs and to stay indoors and watch something on the telly when it rains rather than hatching impossible plans to transport their non-Spanish-speaking family of four children to Spain vowing to turn their hand to anything in order to live the dream. There's no point as people do what they want to do and they will either strike lucky and find legal work (highly unlikely) or come up against harsh reality and either struggle to make a living on the black or go home with the experience under their belt.
If they are single, no dependents, my advice would be to have a go.
No gloom and doom, just common sense

But then...my working years are over, for good. I'm free to do what I want. I'm not rich but have no money worries. Last night I went out for a very enjoyable dinner in a 'good' restaurant, tonight my son and dil have invited us to dinner at their house. I shall spend the afternoon lazing by the pool on a lounger, reading.
There are very many happy immigrants like me.

But there are still very many here, locals and immigrants, wondering how to make ends meet, working every hour God sends, low wages, wondering how to keep a roof over their heads, dreading that big car repair, the washing machine breaking down.

You're quite right, it's the same everywhere. As the German saying goes, 'When there's money in your pocket, life is usually good'. So of course it's not all gloom and doom......if there's money in your pocket.

But not all pockets are full. Some are empty and in shabby old coats. Not everyone can life their conteted lives in a bubble, heedless of the awful lives some are condemned o lead, in Spain, the UK, everywhere.
As you said.


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## jojo

Its actually the cost of moving to Spain and then having to move back again thats rarely taken into account and you dont get that back. 

Jo xxx


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## Rabbitcat

Lol Mrypg

Am just saying if you are going over to Spain not needing to work, plus renting not buying you're laughing.

Otherwise ( just like in all countries) usual caution must be applied BUT not more than anywhere else, hence I don't understand the naysayers and doom merchants who down so much on Spain.

To a large extent if you're prepared- it is what you make it


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## Isobella

jojo said:


> So someone sells their UK home, or gives up their tenancy, they give up their UK job. Pack up a few belongings, take their kids out of their school and move to Spain - that in itself is very costly. They take on a long term rental, put the kids in school and then realise - they've got no healthcare and no income, so they cant become "residents". They look for work...... they cant find any, they become ill and have no healthcare, meanwhile they still have to pay rent and bills - all of this costs money. In the end, they return to the UK.................oooops, no home, no job, no money cos they blew it all in Spain..............
> 
> I have seen this happen many times.
> 
> Jo xxx


Yes, happens a lot. There has been a few whip rounds too to help people get back to the UK. Ok using all the old cliches such as "live for the day" "you only have one life" etc. but it is crazy to move to a place like Andalucia with over 30% unemployment if you need to work. Ok. If you are retired and have a decent income but do people want to scratch a living doing illegal taxi runs and other odd jobs and no security net. That's what I see many doing. I'll add a couple of cliches "you can't have it all" and "some things are worth waiting for.


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## Rabbitcat

Exactly Isobella

Remember, Rome wasn't built with a bird in the bush, etc


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## mrypg9

tonymar said:


> Yes rabbit loads of negative stuff
> 
> I prefer to live for the day !! as you say your a long time dead .
> 
> Some times I feel people sit on the fence , and only dream of making the move
> 
> My attitude when coming over was , just go for it , whats the worst that can happen ?
> 
> you could loose some money , not like it here I suppose
> 
> At least if you try you will know for sure one way or another if its for you or not !!
> 
> 12 YEARS here and still happy !!
> 
> Tony Agost Alicante


Sorry but I think that post is plain daft. You make light of things that at best could be a painful experience, at worst could be truly tragic.
Being unemployed, losing your home, facing a return to the UK penniless and maybe with nowhere to go hoping the local council will find you somewhere or your relatives will take pity on you. ....I think these are outcomes no family with children would take lightly.

Then there are those who wish to return to the UK for whatever reason, maybe elderly lonely people who've lost their partner or need long-term medical care and can't sell their properties...not things to be blithely brushed aside.

Giving that type of blithely vacuous advice -'Life's too short, go for it' - is imo as bad as those whose advice is entirely negative in the true sense, without regard for the circumstances of the person intending to emigrate. Of course some people will get well=paid jobs, of course retirees will live out their days contentedly. But many will not. Life is indeed short....too short to live recklessly.

Like you, I've been out of the UK for many years now and I've honestly enjoyed every minute of my life. But then as I've said above I'm lucky in that my circumstances are such that I've no reason not to be happy. 
I'd advise anyone financially sound to do as I did. But no way would I encourage people to do things which might blight the lives of themselves and their families for years to come.
It's about common sense and planning, like mot things in life.


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## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> Lol Mrypg
> 
> Am just saying if you are going over to Spain not needing to work, plus renting not buying you're laughing.
> 
> Otherwise ( just like in all countries) usual caution must be applied BUT not more than anywhere else, hence I don't understand the naysayers and doom merchants who down so much on Spain.
> 
> To a large extent if you're prepared- it is what you make it


Yes, totally agree...although the 34% unemployed in my area, a number which includes immigrants, might not.

Whilst unemployment stands at its present rate, whilst so many jobs are low paid, long hours and insecure, much more caution needs to be applied when moving to Spain than, say, moving to Germany or the Czech Republic, especially if you have a family to support.

That's all.


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## Rabbitcat

I don't think any of us are making fun of anyone who has suffered through no fault of their own

At the same time if people emigrate expecting paradise for nothing more fool them.

My point is if you are in the position to emigrate ( don't need work/ rent) Spain's as nice a place as any. I do not reside there yet but have visited and have lived abroad for over 10 years in other places.

Go Espana!!!!


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## Pesky Wesky

Good grief. Has this subject not been done to death!?



Justina said:


> I rarely look at other forums but with this one it would be very mean spirited to 'relish' doom and gloom, which this one doesn't do.
> Since there is a steady stream of newbies asking for help then I think it is great that some posters are willing to answer the same old questions.
> While Spain is only two hours away from the UK, for many people it is a big step, especially when some would sell up and flop onto a Spanish beach without a bit of thought beforehand. Or invest in a house which turns out to be in the sticks with one bus in and out and a hospital many miles away. Or the people who will just 'pick up' the lingo once they are here. Well and good luck with that.
> A bit of caution is not a bad thing.


So much agree with this. 


Rabbitcat said:


> Yip its a hell hole No one should live there etc etc
> 
> There are no poor people, pointless bureaucracy etc in any other countries. Get real
> 
> As regards my own situ I am entirely consistent . I agree with the rent/no work needed approach but am not into either overly pessimistic rants nor self important lecturing.
> 
> Its a beautiful place which requires the same due diligence as anywhere else. Period


Don't know where this is coming from nor where it's going to! 98% of the posts I read are from people asking about Spain and 80% of those ask about southern Spain, so other countries don't need to be mentioned. Bureaucracy IS a pain in the neck in Spain, unemployment IS worse in Spain, temperatures are NOTnstant etc etc. Just what the problem is in telling people the truth? I for one don't understand what's to be gained by ignoring this and similar information??
Surely the best way to make a decision is to collect balanced info ie positive and negative

P's few posters give " bad news posts " to those who 
Are retired with a reasonable income
people with young families and with securejobs in place
young singles
Those who have secure teleworking in place and who know about their tax situation


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## Pesky Wesky

tonymar said:


> Yes rabbit loads of negative stuff
> 
> I prefer to live for the day !! as you say your a long time dead .
> 
> Some times I feel people sit on the fence , and only dream of making the move
> 
> My attitude when coming over was , just go for it , whats the worst that can happen ?
> 
> you could loose some money , not like it here I suppose
> 
> At least if you try you will know for sure one way or another if its for you or not !!
> 
> 12 YEARS here and still happy !!
> 
> Tony Agost Alicante


Tony, lots of us have been here many years. When I came here Spain was a very different country. Being happy here for 10, 20 or even 30 years doesn't give any guarantee that someone coming now will enjoy that same feeling and may even be thought to be a naive and or irresponsible attitude


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## XTreme

Due to so many Crash and Burn scenarios in recent years I fully support the Ayuntamiento's initiatives in warning foreigners of what they're getting into if they come here!


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## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> I don't think any of us are making fun of anyone who has suffered through no fault of their own
> 
> At the same time if people emigrate expecting paradise for nothing more fool them.
> 
> My point is if you are in the position to emigrate ( don't need work/ rent) Spain's as nice a place as any. I do not reside there yet but have visited and have lived abroad for over 10 years in other places.
> 
> Go Espana!!!!


Ahh...I thought you lived in Spain.

Well....I began spending time in what was then Czechoslovakia in the late 1960s when I was a student. Over the next forty years I continued to visit regularly, lived with a Czech family when there.

Then in 2005 we moved to live in Prague. We went there not needing to work and with a place to live already arranged, with friends I'd known for years and I spoke Czech albeit badly.

It didn't take long to find out that living and visiting are two entirely different things, even if you're not seeking unemployment. Visitors no matter how frequent rarely experience all those little differences and nuances that only time can impress upon you. Visitors rarely encounter bureaucracy, shop for or cook their dinners, clean their own loos...all the daily little things that make up the texture of life.

Now I'm not saying that the Czech Republic is like Spain. For one thing there are more job opportunities for skilled professionals as big UK and US firms open up there.
But as for bureaucracy, just getting on with daily life...Spain is paradise compared to the CR where police are routinely corrupt and harass foreigners, expecting bribes , giving a little 'gift' is essential to getting the most basic things done - house repairs, prescriptions filled and so on - shopping is a nightmare as foodstuffs are of poor quality and most things are shoddily made and fall apart quickly. 

It amuses me when people moan about Spanish bureaucracy. I have only ever met with efficiency, courtesy and helpful kindness here as opposed to sour and downright rude Czech officialdom.
And it's not even cheap to live in Prague, not any more. Ripping off foreigners is a national sport as much as ice hockey is .

No way is visiting to be compared with living full time, not in my experience anyway.


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## Leper

I don't have the time or the stomach to read all the posts on this thread. However, most posters are in touch with reality and that's one of the things that keeps me on this forum. Some are living on cloud-cuckooland and believing them is like those who think Rep of Ireland will win the next World Cup. 

If you believe that you can pick up easy work in Spain that will sustain you into the 22nd century with decent wages, boy, you are in for some shock! It would be very easy for the likes of me to talk-up Spain, inspire you to resign your job in the UK and come out here and get drained of every penny you ever earned and more. 

If you believe in Fantasyland and you are too old for Disney movies, then come to Spain, get fleeced and after a prolonged period of disorientation you will remember Leper and some more contributors here who are telling the truth. For anybody living in Spain and are lucky enough to sustain a living, look around you - Does the average Spaniard look like he is going to drag Spain out of recession? Do the new arrivals from the UK without work look like they are going to live the dream? If you answer Yes to one or both of these questions start looking at Disney movies.


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## Rabbitcat

Lighten up and live a little.

Only numpties think its a land of milk and honey- likewise only suicidal pessimistic professional moaners think its Armageddon .

If you are in either of those categories you will believe Ballykissangel is akin to Ballymun

Too much doom n gloom


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## jojo

Rabbitcat said:


> Lighten up and live a little.
> 
> Only numpties think its a land of milk and honey- likewise only suicidal pessimistic professional moaners think its Armageddon .
> 
> If you are in either of those categories you will believe Ballykissangel is akin to Ballymun


But we've explained why we come across as negative sometimes, so now you know 

Jo xxx


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## Rabbitcat

Lol

True, you sure have.

If we all thought the same would be boring world!!!


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## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> Lol
> 
> True, you sure have.
> 
> If we all thought the same would be boring world!!!


That's exactly what my old Gran used to say!

I don't like it when everyone agrees with me. I start thinking I must be wrong. Someone once said I could start an argument in an empty room.


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## tonymar

jojo said:


> So someone sells their UK home, or gives up their tenancy, they give up their UK job. Pack up a few belongings, take their kids out of their school and move to Spain - that in itself is very costly. They take on a long term rental, put the kids in school and then realise - they've got no healthcare and no income, so they cant become "residents". They look for work...... they cant find any, they become ill and have no healthcare, meanwhile they still have to pay rent and bills - all of this costs money. In the end, they return to the UK.................oooops, no home, no job, no money cos they blew it all in Spain..............
> 
> I have seen this happen many times.
> 
> Jo xxx


Jo if you are in the UK

did it not work out for you in Spain ?

Just wondered 

Cheers Tony


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## Rabbitcat

Sing along now folks.....Always look on the bright side of life.......


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## tonymar

Rabbitcat said:


> Sing along now folks.....Always look on the bright side of life.......


Hi rabbit



I think generally in life there is no magic place to live , 

life is what you make it ,

so as you said

Always look on the bright side of life 

and when you think of it what have the Spanish ever done for us , sorry I mean Romans !


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## mrypg9

tonymar said:


> Hi rabbit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> life is what you make it ,
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Not true, Tony. We rarely make our own luck. How does the 'life is what you make it' philosophy apply to the millions made unemployed through no fault of their own, those who are burdened with ill-health or have a serious accident, indeed anyone who experiences misfortune through no fault of their own.
> 
> Our life is largely made for us. Are you seriously saying that the life of the latest 'Royal' baby, born today, I am told, is going to be the same as the life ofa baby born today to a single mother in Toxteth or Brixton?
> 
> I believe that we do, most of us, have the ability to make choices but we don't all receive the same quality or variety of choice open to us. How we get on in life largely deends on our status at birth, especially in unequal societies like the UK.


----------



## jojo

tonymar said:


> Jo if you are in the UK
> 
> did it not work out for you in Spain ?
> 
> Just wondered
> 
> Cheers Tony


No things didnt work out for several reasons. Firstly the recession, which started just as we arrived in Spain. My husband was set to go into partnership with someone already working in Spain and bringing two companies together, ours in the UK and his friends in Spain, but the recession meant he stayed in the UK to keep his business going strong. Secondly my daughter absolutely hated Spain - she was 10 when we moved there and 14 when we left. We tried everything to get her to like it - but nothing did. My older daughters rented our UK house from us and they then wanted to move out, meaning we werent getting any rent from them and of course the exchange rate messed about. My husband got fed up with commuting, my son wanted to follow a course that he could only do in the UK .... so after 5 years we came back to the UK. My daughter was thrilled and even now, 3 years on vows she will never set foot in Spain again lol!!! I still miss it terribly. However, we still have our UK house, my husband still has a very successful business and the chap in Spain he was going to go into business with has..... well he's had to diversify.

Jo xxxx


----------



## tonymar

jojo said:


> No things didnt work out for several reasons. Firstly the recession, which started just as we arrived in Spain. My husband was set to go into partnership with someone already working in Spain and bringing two companies together, ours in the UK and his friends in Spain, but the recession meant he stayed in the UK to keep his business going strong. Secondly my daughter absolutely hated Spain - she was 10 when we moved there and 14 when we left. We tried everything to get her to like it - but nothing did. My older daughters rented our UK house from us and they then wanted to move out, meaning we werent getting any rent from them and of course the exchange rate messed about. My husband got fed up with commuting, my son wanted to follow a course that he could only do in the UK .... so after 5 years we came back to the UK. My daughter was thrilled and even now, 3 years on vows she will never set foot in Spain again lol!!! I still miss it terribly. However, we still have our UK house, my husband still has a very successful business and the chap in Spain he was going to go into business with has..... well he's had to diversify.
> 
> Jo xxxx



Sorry it didnt work out

Do you wish you never came !

Tony


----------



## jojo

tonymar said:


> Sorry it didnt work out
> 
> Do you wish you never came !
> 
> Tony


 Not at all and we keep toying with the idea of doing it again. My husband has scaled down his business now and altho not quite ready to retire, he doesnt have so much to do. 

But prior to moving, we did plan it and plan it, my husdand was meticulous, we even had an accountant working on it (the business and tax side of things). The move itself wasnt cheap either and thats something people rarely think about and I dont just mean flights, but deposits, furniture, moving pets, insurances, legal bits and pieces, buying cars....

So at the moment we have to be satisfied with popping over every now and again to visit friends.


Jo xxx


----------



## brocher

Rabbitcat said:


> With all due respect- got you an apartment, everything will be just fine!!!!
> 
> If that's the sort of diligence you extend to a move abroad its hard to have empathy let alone sympathy if it didn't work out


...........but that is exactly how many approach the move. Actually some talk to no one. They just assume they can move to Spain, get the same benefits and healthcare they get in the UK, stick their 14yr old in state school where they will obviously be taught in English, there will be people queuing up to employ them........ these are the only people who get your so called " negative" responses on this forum.


----------



## brocher

Rabbitcat said:


> Lol Mrypg
> 
> Am just saying if you are going over to Spain not needing to work, plus renting not buying you're laughing.
> 
> Otherwise ( just like in all countries) usual caution must be applied BUT not more than anywhere else, hence I don't understand the naysayers and doom merchants who down so much on Spain.
> 
> To a large extent if you're prepared- it is what you make it


Haven't seen any posts advising anyone no doesn't need to work not to go.

Haven't seen anyone really downing Spain.


----------



## AllHeart

Rabbitcat, if you find there is so much doom and gloom here, why do you stick around? Is it a train wreck kind of thing? 

(I don't see doom and gloom here on the forum.)

To add to the clichés already posted in this thread, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." To me, the forum is a beautiful oasis in this often-wicked world.


----------



## Isobella

brocher said:


> ...........but that is exactly how many approach the move. Actually some talk to no one. They just assume they can move to Spain, get the same benefits and healthcare they get in the UK, stick their 14yr old in state school where they will obviously be taught in English, there will be people queuing up to employ them........ these are the only people who get your so called " negative" responses on this forum.


Yes that is the value of this forum, saying great, come on down would not be helpful, depends on the individual circumstances. To use the cliche "you only have one life" well so does your teenage kids. They will be leaving behind friends who they may have bonded with for years, perhaps shoved in a state school where they will be placed in a year with much younger children, unemployment over 50%. Not easy for them in the UK but they are doubly handicapped in Spain without the language. I bet many would have been grateful to find such a helpful forum like this some years ago. What do they say, forewarned is forearmed


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Rabbitcat said:


> Lighten up and live a little.
> 
> Only numpties think its a land of milk and honey- likewise only suicidal pessimistic professional moaners think its Armageddon .
> 
> If you are in either of those categories you will believe Ballykissangel is akin to Ballymun
> 
> Too much doom n gloom


If that's your definition of numpty and you're a regular on the forum, then you'll see many,many examples of numpty posters here !! But, apart from the odd few who see our input as a malicious attempt to stop them from entering the Iberian peninsula, others actually thank us for our honesty and insight!!
You do whatever you like Rabbitcat, but others actually appreciate posters efforts on here!


----------



## Rabbitcat

Lol Pesky your signature info sure does show how much an optimist you are!!!

Reckon I will sign off all my posts with a running total of this years road deaths!!!

Lighten up. We all appreciate the help guidance info given on the forum- a little less pessimism brightens everything up


----------



## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> Lol Pesky your signature info sure does show how much an optimist you are!!!
> 
> Reckon I will sign off all my posts with a running total of this years road deaths!!!
> 
> Lighten up. We all appreciate the help guidance info given on the forum- a little less pessimism brightens everything up


I think you may be confusing realism and pessimism.
Most of us will wake up this morning looking forward to a happy day with friends andfamily.
Some will wake up wondering howto get through the day.
That's all.


----------



## Rabbitcat

I like to consider myself an optimistic realist

No rose tinted glasses- but come on, there's many many people with much worse problems.

Live a little, enjoy life.


----------



## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> I like to consider myself an optimistic realist
> 
> No rose tinted glasses- but come on, there's many many people with much worse problems.
> 
> Live a little, enjoy life.


What makes you think we don't? I don't have problems, worse or better and I'm thankful for that. (I don't consider the ageing process a 'problem', more of an inevitable, unavoidable curse).
Perhaps we enjoy life more than those who prefer to gloss over the darker side.
It's a question of balance, that's all.
It comes down to little things like, for example, coming out of Mercadona pushing a trolley full of goodies past a woman begging.
But as you say, you don't live here yet so you can't experience all the threads that make up the tapestry of everyday life in Spain.

You keep repeating that we should ' lighten up, enjoy life'. We in turn are repeatedly tellingyou that, yes, we do, but we do not have to live in a fool's paradise to be happy.
That's all.


----------



## Rabbitcat

Each to their own.

Though to be honest its you that's being a bit presumptions . How do you know what my probs are or indeed if I live/ have lived in countries where the locals are a lot worse off than Spain?

My point is that yes theres issues, probs, economy etc- but newsflash- so is there virtually everywhere on the planet.

How we go through life and handle these issues is what matters. 

Personally being realistic and optimistic works for me, but each to their own

Smile and the world smiles with you

Top tip- wake up every morning with a big smile on your face- go to bed with a coat hanger in your mouth!!!!


----------



## mrypg9

I've lived in countries where people were and still are much worse off than anyonein Spain.
But I was very aware of my privileged position and of the fact that compared to 99% of the population I lived a life of carefree luxury.
I enjoyed life fully aware of how miserable the lives of many others were.


----------



## Rabbitcat

There we go then, got there in the end.

Let's all be happy and enjoy Espana


----------



## tonymar

jojo said:


> Not at all and we keep toying with the idea of doing it again. My husband has scaled down his business now and altho not quite ready to retire, he doesnt have so much to do.
> 
> But prior to moving, we did plan it and plan it, my husdand was meticulous, we even had an accountant working on it (the business and tax side of things). The move itself wasnt cheap either and thats something people rarely think about and I dont just mean flights, but deposits, furniture, moving pets, insurances, legal bits and pieces, buying cars....
> 
> So at the moment we have to be satisfied with popping over every now and again to visit friends.
> 
> 
> Jo xxx



I think most people get something out of their move to Spain 

I know people like you that planed well but have gone back for various reasons

But most have little regrets , because they have lived their dream !!

I do not want to pressure any one in moving to Spain , just sharing my own opinion


Cheers Tony


----------



## Rabbitcat

Good post Tony- let's just be upbeat.

Personally I can't wait to give it a go in Spain. 

The most important thing is -DO YOUR RESEARCH. 

Am really looking forward to visiting different places there- Gondola trip in Venice, Photos at the Eiffel Tower, cocktails at Raffles.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Rabbitcat said:


> Lol Pesky your signature info sure does show how much an optimist you are!!!
> 
> Reckon I will sign off all my posts with a running total of this years road deaths!!!
> 
> Lighten up. We all appreciate the help guidance info given on the forum- a little less pessimism brightens everything up


I find it difficult to understand what a person enquiring about work opportunities for themselves in Spain, or the likelihood of their teenage son finding an engineering post in Andalucia, or someone looking for a hairdressing position in Valencia wouldn't find interesting about the info in my signature, which after all is based on the data that comes directly from the INE.
It has nothing, absolutely nothing (I hope you're getting this Rabbitcat because it can't be spelt out any more clearly)to do with positive or negative attitude.
As you have found it perfectly reasonable to tell me to lighten up, I don't mind telling you to get off planet 9. Get real!! Come back to planet earth where there are many, many foreigners living happy, full lives with their families, myself included in Spain, but where unemployment is much higher than all European countries except one, where corruption in politics is also much higher than in other European countries and where the economy is very unstable and this does have an impact on us.
I actually have no problem in builders, beauticians, policemen, photographers, care workers etc coming over here and trying their luck, but if they come on the forum and ask what their chances are of getting a job, well, I'll tell them. Why wouldn't I? 

Anyway, time to wish all mums out there HAPPY SPANISH MOTHER DAY. Enjoy yourselves!
From a happy and contented Pesky Wesky, based in Madrid, with a family and with employment


----------



## Rabbitcat

Lol excellent stuff. Knew you could lighten up




2014/2015 Statistics......... 23 people suffered serious burns after their telephone rang while they were ironing a 46% increase on the previous period.


----------



## Isobella

tonymar said:


> I think most people get something out of their move to Spain
> 
> I know people like you that planed well but have gone back for various reasons
> 
> But most have little regrets , because they have lived their dream !!
> 
> I do not want to pressure any one in moving to Spain , just sharing my own opinion
> 
> 
> Cheers Tony


How do you know that most have little regrets I certainly would have if I had sold my mortgage free home and had to return to the UK with nothing which is what has happened to some. Especially some that bought bars etc. you can live the dream in Spain without burning your boat.


----------



## jojo

tonymar said:


> I think most people get something out of their move to Spain
> 
> I know people like you that planed well but have gone back for various reasons
> 
> But most have little regrets , because they have lived their dream !!
> 
> I do not want to pressure any one in moving to Spain , just sharing my own opinion
> 
> 
> Cheers Tony


Although I've only ever skimmed over it, the issue of my daughter, who hated Spain is something other families should take into account. Before we went, we talked it through and as she was only 10 at the time we used a bit of bribery and corruption, hoping that her not wanting to go could be eased, but she didnt ever relent - Long story short........ no, she hated it. She hated the heat, the cold winters, the insects, the dust, the beach, the spanish, the food, missed her friends and family back in the UK - everything.

So if you have children, these things need to be looked into. Like I say, we thought we could get round her, but it wasnt to be. Even now, she talks of her time in Spain as a nightmare that is forever imbedded in her memory

A ten year old shouldnt rule the families decisions, but trust me, a feisty 10+ girl can make things very difficult.

Jo xxx


----------



## AllHeart

Rabbitcat said:


> Good post Tony- let's just be upbeat.
> 
> Personally I can't wait to give it a go in Spain.
> 
> The most important thing is -DO YOUR RESEARCH.
> 
> Am really looking forward to visiting different places there- Gondola trip in Venice, Photos at the Eiffel Tower, cocktails at Raffles.


Rabbitcat, I think you've missed the whole point of the forum. Here it is:

The Spain Expats forum is a dedicated community of people who have moved to Spain, or who are planning to. This is the place for Expats to meet and discuss anything about moving to, & living in, Spain.

Then you say "Do you research." That's exactly what this forum is about - doing your research about moving to Spain and that's exactly how we use it. Here are just some of the aspects of moving to and living in Spain that forum members have volunteered their time and energy in helping me:

-Finding my family in Spain
-Studying Spanish 
-How to move my belongings to Spain
-How to find a rented apartment
-Deciding where to live in Spain
-Cost of living in Spain
-Finding a job
-Learning how private and public healthcare work
-Cleaning my toilet and stove
-Buying a laptop
-Buying a TV
-Funeral arrangements
-Taxes
-Autonomo questions
-Getting online movies
-Choosing a mobile app for Spanish translation
-Online translation and dictionary tools
-How to shop for fish
-How to make a collect call
-How to live a retired life
-All the ID requirements for living in Spain (padron, social security #, DNI, health card)

And there is more. That's just enough to make my point that this site is doing exactly what it sets out to do, and that I have been helped enormously here, and that doom and gloom have little place on this forum.


----------



## Rabbitcat

Nice post and for the umpteenth time- I appreciate and am thankful for the great info help advice and support on here.

I just think that on various forums - just like in real life -there exists also a gloom n doom faction who enjoy talking things down and talking problems up.

Believe me I have been an expat in other countries and find any expat bar and there will be a section of grumpy, never pleased, begrudger types who will moan endlessly about every little issue in their adopted country


----------



## Lynn R

Good post, AllHeart. What earthly use would an information and advice forum be if people who make enquiries were only ever told about the upsides, and the downsides were totally ignored? To me, downsides are downsides even if they don't affect me personally - because I know and see far too many people who they do affect.


----------



## tonymar

I know !!

Why dont we talk about the good things about Spain !!

I will start---

I love the clear blue sky and sunshine, just cheers me up so much !

Tony


----------



## Tigerlillie

I think this is all just going round in circles, one minute rabbitcat is talking about doom and gloom and then saying do your research. Well, research to me is asking questions to people who are living where I want to go and I don't think telling the truth is doom and gloom, if anything it is positive to tell people of the pitfalls and reality of the situations they face if they just uproot the whole family cos of some fanciful pie in the sky dream that could all end in heartache and misery. I have just been through the last ten pages of questions here and I can't find any doom and gloom posts just truthful how it is ones. Too often people think that moving to another country is going to be just like a move to a different town but with more sun, sand and sea, I got news for those people, it's not like that at all. Apart from the fact of a different language there are different laws, different ways of doing things, different customs, different food and it's not one big long holiday. I don't know about Spain but when I lived in france I used to hear all the time a lot of expats moaning about the admin system, moaning about anything and everything and in particular saying about the french system they wouldn't do it like that in the UK, they wouldn't do it like this in the UK, bla bla bla bla bla the UK, drove me mad! So yes I do think you should tell it like it is and not sugar coat it and if people think that's doom and gloom then they're obviously away with the fairies and no matter what anyone says they are just going to do what they want regardless.


----------



## Isobella

Tony, Oh dear don't people know of the good things if they are planning to move. Perhaps start a new thread.


----------



## Tigerlillie

tonymar said:


> I know !!
> 
> Why dont we talk about the good things about Spain !!
> 
> I will start---
> 
> I love the clear blue sky and sunshine, just cheers me up so much !
> 
> Tony


It wouldn't cheer you up so much if you had to find work, had no money, couldn't feed your family or yourself, had the taxman on your back cos you've just been found out for living under the radar and having to find a way back to the UK with only the clothes on your back and many thousands of euros/pounds in debt. That is doom and gloom and that's a fact for many people who have ignored warnings and advice from the so called naysayers and negative people who according to some seem to frequent this forum. The blue skies and sunshine are only good if you can afford it.


----------



## AllHeart

Tony and Rabbitcat, perhaps this will make the forum more enjoyable for you?


----------



## baldilocks

jojo said:


> A ten year old shouldnt rule the families decisions, but trust me, a feisty 10+ girl can make things very difficult.
> 
> Jo xxx


Bad upbringing, obviously.


----------



## Rabbitcat

Tigerlillie said:


> It wouldn't cheer you up so much if you had to find work, had no money, couldn't feed your family or yourself, had the taxman on your back cos you've just been found out for living under the radar and having to find a way back to the UK with only the clothes on your back and many thousands of euros/pounds in debt. That is doom and gloom and that's a fact for many people who have ignored warnings and advice from the so called naysayers and negative people who according to some seem to frequent this forum. The blue skies and sunshine are only good if you can afford it.


Lol

Quick someone ring the Samaritans!!!!


----------



## jojo

baldilocks said:


> Bad upbringing, obviously.


yep, shamefully neglected, beaten and ill-treated !! We should have left her in the UK to fend for herself lol 

Jo xxx


----------



## 90199

Lynn R said:


> and nowhere on earth is perfect.


Obviously you have never been to Cleckhuddersfax,


----------



## Lynn R

Hepa said:


> Obviously you have never been to Cleckhuddersfax,


Oh, but I know it well, I used to live just "over the tops" on the other side of the border. Nice place (both sides of the border) when the sun is shining. Which cuts out a large part of the year.


----------



## jojo

I've moved the "annoying things about living in Spain to its own thread http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...itating-little-things-about-living-spain.html

Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

AllHeart said:


> Rabbitcat, I think you've missed the whole point of the forum. Here it is:
> 
> The Spain Expats forum is a dedicated community of people who have moved to Spain, or who are planning to. This is the place for Expats to meet and discuss anything about moving to, & living in, Spain.
> 
> Then you say "Do you research." That's exactly what this forum is about - doing your research about moving to Spain and that's exactly how we use it. .....this site is doing exactly what it sets out to do, and that I have been helped enormously here, and that doom and gloom have little place on this forum.


All heart is the best example of how to make the most of this forum. She has asked umpteen questions, politely asked for clarification when needed, has weighed up information, has engaged with posters, has got back to us saying what she has done and why, has listened and very importantly has started giving others the benefit of her wisdom. I for one don't regret telling her a little about the Spain I know.


Tigerlillie said:


> I think this is all just going round in circles, one minute rabbitcat is talking about doom and gloom and then saying do your research. Well, research to me is asking questions to people who are living where I want to go and I don't think telling the truth is doom and gloom, if anything it is positive to tell people of the pitfalls and reality of the situations they face if they just uproot the whole family cos of some fanciful pie in the sky dream that could all end in heartache and misery. I have just been through the last ten pages of questions here and I can't find any doom and gloom posts just truthful how it is ones. Too often people think that moving to another country is going to be just like a move to a different town but with more sun, sand and sea, I got news for those people, it's not like that at all. Apart from the fact of a different language there are different laws, different ways of doing things, different customs, different food and it's not one big long holiday. I don't know about Spain but when I lived in france I used to hear all the time a lot of expats moaning about the admin system, moaning about anything and everything and in particular saying about the french system they wouldn't do it like that in the UK, they wouldn't do it like this in the UK, bla bla bla bla bla the UK, drove me mad! So yes I do think you should tell it like it is and not sugar coat it and if people think that's doom and gloom then they're obviously away with the fairies and no matter what anyone says they are just going to do what they want regardless.


That's how I see it too.
Personally I can't see how firstly real life can be criticised as being doom and gloom - it is what it is surely, and secondly why people posting on the forum would want or expect not to be told about life in Spain as it:confused2:
True, some people are blunter than others, and maybe that could be toned down....

Anyway, that'sthat's enough time devoted to this thread that as I said before has a theme that has been the subject of debate many times before. Anybody posted the link to the now famous thread of Why Do We Bother????


----------



## AllHeart

Pesky Wesky, thank you for your kind compliment. And thanks for those who liked my posts. This forum has been the cornerstone of my new beautiful life in Spain. I can't ever thank you guys enough. I just hope my endless questioning has helped others who may have the same questions. 

I honestly don't see doom and gloom here on the forum - and never have. Perhaps it's because I'm aware of the real doom and gloom in the world?


----------



## 90199

jojo said:


> yep, shamefully neglected, beaten and ill-treated !! We should have left her in the UK to fend for herself lol
> 
> Jo xxx



Poor Ruby, we miss her escapades


----------



## jojo

Hepa said:


> Poor Ruby, we miss her escapades


lol, well she/we have just been celebrating her 18th birthday and she's.......... still a royal PITA, but a very strong and loveable character with a heart of gold, who drives me nuts lol!!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

tonymar said:


> I think most people get something out of their move to Spain
> 
> I know people like you that planed well but have gone back for various reasons
> 
> But most have little regrets , *because they have lived their dream *!!
> 
> I do not want to pressure any one in moving to Spain , just sharing my own opinion
> 
> 
> Cheers Tony



Could someone please tell me exactly what is involved in this 'living the dream' we hear about so often Is it of lying on a beach drinking cava under the shade of palm trees? Or something like that?? If so, is that all

Do people really spend parts of their lives 'dreaming' about living in Spain and if so what do these 'dreams' consist of, I wonder...
How sad some people's lives must be if when they're in one place they spend a lot of time wishing they were someone else.
It is better, surely, to enjoy the life you're living in in real time.


----------



## jojo

I always wanted to live in a mediteranean country, I used to imagine how lovely it would be not to be ruled by the weather, living somewhere where their was lots of open spaces, palm trees and crickets.......... Yes, Spain filled that dream for me. However, life goes on and the housework, shopping, washing, ironing, school run still had to be done, but to do it in a nicer environment was wonderful. Spain wasnt without its problems, but for me it was close enough to say that I was "living the dream" 

The winters werent great, but we got thru them. As I've said before, if it hadnt been for other issues, we would still be there and I still mourn Spain.

Jo xxx


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> Could someone please tell me exactly what is involved in this 'living the dream' we hear about so often Is it of lying on a beach drinking cava under the shade of palm trees? Or something like that?? If so, is that all
> 
> Do people really spend parts of their lives 'dreaming' about living in Spain and if so what do these 'dreams' consist of, I wonder...
> How sad some people's lives must be if when they're in one place they spend a lot of time wishing they were someone else.
> It is better, surely, to enjoy the life you're living in in real time.


We all have different dreams. Mine was about living somewhere with clean air, beautiful countryside, easy access to good quality locally-produced food, a relatively stress-free life and people who shared my priorities. 

At the time I was doing a stressful job in a polluted city surrounded by a ring road full of shopping centres, permanently sitting in traffic jams, and working with selfish people who were obsessed with making money. 

I honestly can't see a problem with having a dream if it leads you to make positive changes in your life.


----------



## baldilocks

Alcalaina said:


> I honestly can't see a problem with having a dream if it leads you to make positive changes in your life.


Quite agree, provided it is thought through properly before making the jump. So many dream of relaxing on the sunkissed beach of a desert island but don't think through living with no electricity, no TV, no supermarkets, not even easy [turn on a tap] access to a supply of good drinking water, no car, no petrol stations to fill up at even if the no-car problem is solved, no central heating/air-conditioning, etc. etc.


----------



## Leper

Alcalaina is right "I honestly can't see a problem with having a dream if it leads you to make positive changes in your life."

The thing is, many of the English speaking immigrants/temporary long term holidaymakers to Spain do not want to make any effort to change. They want everybody else to change and no effort whatsoever will be made by them. 

These guys make no effort to learn more than ten words of Spanish with "Buena" counting as two. They need counselling when they cannot buy Kelloggs Cornflakes in the local Spanish shop, have disgruntled faces when they can't get wrapped thinly sliced bread directly from ovens in Hartlepool.

These people are living their dream of Mills & Boon, Coronation Street and of course vote Conservative. They buy a fake Panama Hat in their local Chinese shop @ €6.00, occupy a shredding cloth top high stool in a pub on the playa called "The George" thinking they are a positive addition to Spain and while drinking a "half" pontificate on how lazy the Spanish locals are (cretins, how dare they take a sleep during the day). They speak of Sunderland's right of survival in the Premiership, the new royal baby and the likliehood of Brit residents in Spain being forgotten by the new UK government.

I'm not saying to forget spag bol and your world beating tomato sauce. If you want to live the dream, then start living it.


----------



## Alcalaina

baldilocks said:


> Quite agree, provided it is thought through properly before making the jump. So many dream of relaxing on the sunkissed beach of a desert island but don't think through living with no electricity, no TV, no supermarkets, not even easy [turn on a tap] access to a supply of good drinking water, no car, no petrol stations to fill up at even if the no-car problem is solved, no central heating/air-conditioning, etc. etc.


Which is why they opt for Spain I guess - sunkissed beaches with all mod cons.

Of course you have to work hard to find a deserted one these days, though they do still exist:


----------



## Naomira

Alcalaina said:


> We all have different dreams. Mine was about living somewhere with clean air, beautiful countryside, easy access to good quality locally-produced food, a relatively stress-free life and people who shared my priorities.
> 
> At the time I was doing a stressful job in a polluted city surrounded by a ring road full of shopping centres, permanently sitting in traffic jams, and working with selfish people who were obsessed with making money.
> 
> I honestly can't see a problem with having a dream if it leads you to make positive changes in your life.


I completely identify with this. I have a mind-numbing, menial job and I live in a cold and wet place. I regret not trying harder to stay in Spain and making plans to move back helps me to stay positive. It doesn't mean that I don't make the best of my current situation but rather, it gives me something pleasant to look forward to.


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## Rabbitcat

Like that post Naomira. Honest, heartfelt and quite warming. Good luck with your plans and hope you do indeed return there soon


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## Naomira

Thanks Rabbitcat. Will keep trying.


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## mrypg9

I must have been lucky. I have been very content wherever I have lived and have at that particular time never wanted to be anywhere else.


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## jimenato

Leper said:


> Alcalaina is right "I honestly can't see a problem with having a dream if it leads you to make positive changes in your life."
> 
> The thing is, many of the English speaking immigrants/temporary long term holidaymakers to Spain do not want to make any effort to change. They want everybody else to change and no effort whatsoever will be made by them.
> 
> These guys make no effort to learn more than ten words of Spanish with "Buena" counting as two. They need counselling when they cannot buy Kelloggs Cornflakes in the local Spanish shop, have disgruntled faces when they can't get wrapped thinly sliced bread directly from ovens in Hartlepool.
> 
> These people are living their dream of Mills & Boon, Coronation Street and of course vote Conservative. They buy a fake Panama Hat in their local Chinese shop @ €6.00, occupy a shredding cloth top high stool in a pub on the playa called "The George" thinking they are a positive addition to Spain and while drinking a "half" pontificate on how lazy the Spanish locals are (cretins, how dare they take a sleep during the day). They speak of Sunderland's right of survival in the Premiership, the new royal baby and the likliehood of Brit residents in Spain being forgotten by the new UK government.
> 
> I'm not saying to forget spag bol and your world beating tomato sauce. If you want to live the dream, then start living it.


Wow! You must live somewhere pretty nasty to know people like that! Having lived on or around the Costa del Sol for 15 years I haven't come across it.


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## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> Wow! You must live somewhere pretty nasty to know people like that! Having lived on or around the Costa del Sol for 15 years I haven't come across it.


No, neither have I. 
And I can't see why people should feel obliged to change just because they are on holiday or living in a foreign country. Who is anyone to lay down rules for living in Spain? Behave yourself, be considerate and polite are the only rules anyone should observe.
If I felt like eating Kelloggs and HP sauce or wearing straw hats I'd do so. I didn't come here to be told what to do and not do, thankyou.
Ditto voting Conservative. Why on earth should anyone change their voting habits because they've changed countries?? I have never voted Conservative in my life but those who do don't need Leper's disapproval, or mine, much as I abhor their choice.
There's too much of this self-righteous nonsense about - see thread on Immigrants to Spain.

What interests me is why it's always the 'Spanish' dream, not the 'Irish' dream, or 'French' dream' or 'Portuguese' dream. That genuinely puzzles me. I was happy to be able to go and live in Prague but it didn't enter my head that I was going to live the Czech dream...

I lived in a rural area in the UK, nice clean air, good local produce,didn't particularly love my job but the reasonable salary and prospect of a pension made up for that. I was happy to leave the UK when I retired, it was something I wanted to do and I was content enough in Prague in spite of many inconveniences, all fairly minor for me and I'm happy now in Spain.
Maybe the special thing in Spain is the sunshine?


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## mrypg9

Incidentally, isn't there something maybe, well, just the teeniest bit laughable, not to say plasticky even, about guiris telling other guiris what to do and not to do in Spain


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> We all have different dreams. Mine was about living somewhere with clean air, beautiful countryside, easy access to good quality locally-produced food, a relatively stress-free life and people who shared my priorities.
> 
> At the time I was doing a stressful job in a polluted city surrounded by a ring road full of shopping centres, permanently sitting in traffic jams, and working with selfish people who were obsessed with making money.
> 
> I honestly can't see a problem with having a dream if it leads you to make positive changes in your life.


I can see all that, if that was the kind of less than perfect life anyone led in the UK. As I said, I was able to enjoy those things in the UK. The little town I lived in was surrounded by forests and open countryside. I didn't particularly like it but many people came to retire there from London and other big cities. Anyone living a life they would rather not have is bound to have 'dreams' of a better one, I can see that.
But why the specifically 'Spanish dream'? I would really like to know why as there are many other beautiful countries in Europe.


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## Pesky Wesky

jimenato said:


> Wow! You must live somewhere pretty nasty to know people like that! Having lived on or around the Costa del Sol for 15 years I haven't come across it.


I have on my few visits to that part of the world.

On the other hand I've seen far more "normal" people, retirees, ex policemen, sales reps, pub owners etc who are just very, very happy with their lot and with a smile from ear to ear


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## tonymar

tonymar said:


> I know !!
> 
> Why dont we talk about the good things about Spain !!
> 
> I will start---
> 
> I love the clear blue sky and sunshine, just cheers me up so much !
> 
> Tony


It must be true then Spain has less going for it than I thought !

No one had good things to say about Spain

BUT when I asked about the bad things so many answered a new thread was started !

Oh well , l like it here anyway !:confused2:

Cheers Tony


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## Pesky Wesky

tonymar said:


> It must be true then Spain has less going for it than I thought !
> 
> No one had good things to say about Spain
> 
> BUT when I asked about the bad things so many answered a new thread was started !
> 
> Oh well , l like it here anyway !:confused2:
> 
> Cheers Tony


That's rubbish Tony and you know it!

Every year we have threads about what people like about Spain and it usually goes something like this


the sun
the people
the coffee
the sun
the wine
the friendliness of the people
the attitude towards kids
the sun
the light
the open spaces
the laid back attitude
the sea
the food
the outdoor life
oh
and 
don't
forget

the sun

It shouldn't be a problem to list the inevitable minuses of life in Spain. Too much of negatives or positives gives a distorted view of the country which isn't really helpful or realistic.


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## tonymar

Pesky Wesky said:


> That's rubbish Tony and you know it!
> 
> Every year we have threads about what people like about Spain and it usually goes something like this
> 
> 
> the sun
> the people
> the coffee
> the sun
> the wine
> the friendliness of the people
> the attitude towards kids
> the sun
> the light
> the open spaces
> the laid back attitude
> the sea
> the food
> the outdoor life
> oh
> and
> don't
> forget
> 
> the sun
> 
> It shouldn't be a problem to list the inevitable minuses of life in Spain. Too much of negatives or positives gives a distorted view of the country which isn't really helpful or realistic.



I Suppose so ! yes the sun is quite nice too


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## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> What interests me is why it's always the 'Spanish' dream, not the 'Irish' dream, or 'French' dream' or 'Portuguese' dream. That genuinely puzzles me. I was happy to be able to go and live in Prague but it didn't enter my head that I was going to live the Czech dream...


Occasionally, just being nosey, I read a couple of France expat forums and I do see references there to people who dream, or have dreamed, of a life in France. Oddly enough they tend to get much the same things pointed out to them by members who have lived there for some time - don't come if you need to work, bureaucracy and language difficulties, bad weather in winter, don't base yourself somewhere too isorlated, the iniquities of IHT, think about what will happen when you get old, blah, blah, blah. 

I suppose France and Spain are the two most popular destinations which British people wanting to move abroad think of, hence we see more reference to their dreams on our screens. I certainly did a lot of daydreaming about it when the idea of buying a property here to retire to first took hold, and even more after I'd actually got one but had to return after each visit to a job that paid well but which I didn't particularly like, 3 hours minimum commuting each day and a pretty wet and miserable climate in North West England, until I was sure we could afford to stop work and make the dream a reality. It's still all good in spite of that long list of minor irritations.


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## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> But why the specifically 'Spanish dream'? I would really like to know why as there are many other beautiful countries in Europe.


Mainly because OH already spoke Spanish and we'd been here several times on holiday so had a fairly good idea of what we were looking for. We wanted to live somewhere rural and relatively undeveloped, with a low cost of living (we were early retirees on a strict budget), and near the southern Atlantic coast rather than the Med. 

I spoke French then (I've forgotten it now) and we could have gone there but we found the Andalusians more easy-going, less judgemental than the French. Portugal was an unknown quantity, as neither of us had been there. I would just as happily have gone to the West of Ireland if the weather were better, though it's got very expensive there now.


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## mrypg9

Yes, I think it could well be because it's a country a lot of people have visited on holiday and feel more at home in than somewhere like Germany or Portugal. Also there seem to be a lot of programmes about Spain on British tv.

It's strange really, when we left the UK for good I had no idea whatsoever that we would end up in Spain and that I would settle happily here. I'm beginning to suspect that OH had it in her medium term plans though, at least, until my visit to a freezing Glasgow in April put a final move there out of the question.
My son thought I'd prefer living in Spain as I speak reasonably fluent French and before coming here had only very basic Spanish. I like France but couldn't imagine settling there permanently.


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## mrypg9

I've been watching the debate in the Andalucian Parliament since it opened this morning, now voting -or not - for Susan Diaz to be President.


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## Pesky Wesky

tonymar said:


> It must be true then Spain has less going for it than I thought !
> 
> No one had good things to say about Spain
> 
> BUT when I asked about the bad things so many answered a new thread was started !
> 
> Oh well , l like it here anyway !:confused2:
> 
> Cheers Tony


Here are some example threads Tony, if you're interested
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...ain/21746-good-things-about-living-spain.html

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...living-spain/69777-living-spain-good-bad.html

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/417-things-you-hate-things-you-love-about-spain.html

Are the same likes and dislikes repeated?


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## tonymar

Pesky Wesky said:


> Here are some example threads Tony, if you're interested
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...ain/21746-good-things-about-living-spain.html
> 
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...living-spain/69777-living-spain-good-bad.html
> 
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/417-things-you-hate-things-you-love-about-spain.html
> 
> Are the same likes and dislikes repeated?


Thanks , seems like the sun is popular !


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## raimik

Hi all, 
me and my partner, we are another couple which desperately want move to Spain ( Alicante). I am reading all post from members, and mostly that posts are : don't move to Spain unless you have enough money and don't buy property. 
Well...I think about it long time...and still want to try. Here in UK where we live from 2008 we need to pay £600 rent for accommodation. 
We have saved some money, so we are able to buy some cheap flat in Spain. But really not even half if we would want to buy property in UK . 
So living in own property which is possible for us in Spain...or paying for rent forever???
I can speak basic Spanish...also Russia language...I just hope we will find some job and we will able to set up there. Any comment welcome ...thank you


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## tonymar

raimik said:


> Hi all,
> me and my partner, we are another couple which desperately want move to Spain ( Alicante). I am reading all post from members, and mostly that posts are : don't move to Spain unless you have enough money and don't buy property.
> Well...I think about it long time...and still want to try. Here in UK where we live from 2008 we need to pay £600 rent for accommodation.
> We have saved some money, so we are able to buy some cheap flat in Spain. But really not even half if we would want to buy property in UK .
> So living in own property which is possible for us in Spain...or paying for rent forever???
> I can speak basic Spanish...also Russia language...I just hope we will find some job and we will able to set up there. Any comment welcome ...thank you


Hi Raimik

Great positive post , looks like you have studied the negatives and still want to go for it.

good luck to you hope it works out well , which area in Alicante are you looking at to live ?

Cheers Tony Agost Alicante


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## Naomira

raimik said:


> Hi all,
> me and my partner, we are another couple which desperately want move to Spain ( Alicante). I am reading all post from members, and mostly that posts are : don't move to Spain unless you have enough money and don't buy property.
> Well...I think about it long time...and still want to try. Here in UK where we live from 2008 we need to pay £600 rent for accommodation.
> We have saved some money, so we are able to buy some cheap flat in Spain. But really not even half if we would want to buy property in UK .
> So living in own property which is possible for us in Spain...or paying for rent forever???
> I can speak basic Spanish...also Russia language...I just hope we will find some job and we will able to set up there. Any comment welcome ...thank you


It's a good idea to rent for a while. I met a couple Who moved to Torrevieja, a few years ago, they bought a house and then realised they didn't like the area. From my own experience, I think you need to be patient and not give up too easily. There's a certain amount of culture shock wherever you go. I hope it goes well for you.


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## raimik

Hi Tony, 
thank you for reply  
18/05 we are going there to have a look ...If you have any ideas, I will be happy if you will share it . 
I would like to find safe place ...not interesting about pubs...night life...etc...so maybe some areas around - Elche?


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## tonymar

raimik said:


> Hi Tony,
> thank you for reply
> 18/05 we are going there to have a look ...If you have any ideas, I will be happy if you will share it .
> I would like to find safe place ...not interesting about pubs...night life...etc...so maybe some areas around - Elche?


Elche is quite near me , it is well located for the airport , motorway , short drive to the beach 

It is a quite big city , so has all the shops you would need , even Primark !!

So do you want to live in a town in an apartment amongst Spanish people ?

Cheers Tony


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## raimik

Hi Naomira,
yes, we will rent first and then we will make decision. If you know some nice place so give me an idea ...


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## raimik

Well ...if I will live in apartment amongst Spanish people...my Spanish will be improve quickly ...what do you think ?


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## tonymar

raimik said:


> Well ...if I will live in apartment amongst Spanish people...my Spanish will be improve quickly ...what do you think ?


Yes it would be the best way to learn Spanish ! also you will make some nice Spanish friends
, I have found them very kind . and have time to chat !

If you speak Russian that may be to your advantage , as I have heard that people from Russia are buying property over here , So you may be able to help Estate agents with clients ?

Cheers Tony


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## raimik

Yes...I think the same way...I am actively looking for a job on website : milanuncious...and most job offer are reality agent...so I think about this possibility


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## Isobella

tonymar said:


> Yes it would be the best way to learn Spanish ! also you will make some nice Spanish friends
> , I have found them very kind . and have time to chat !
> 
> If you speak Russian that may be to your advantage , as I have heard that people from Russia are buying property over here , So you may be able to help Estate agents with clients ?
> 
> Cheers Tony


Famous estate agent mantra. They have been coming for over 10 years but more a trickle which I would think has slowed down due to the collapse of the rouble.


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## tonymar

raimik said:


> Yes...I think the same way...I am actively looking for a job on website : milanuncious...and most job offer are reality agent...so I think about this possibility


Good idea

I was in an estate agents office the other day and I noticed a girl on the phone speaking Russian, so I guess there must be some interest still from Russia .

Any way it is best to ask in some offices when you come over , it is worth a try 

Stay positive !!

Cheers Tony


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## raimik

Well ...I know...is not going to be easy ...but worth to try  

And you...are you happy there? Do you enjoy living in Agost? It is bit far away from beaches...and tourists...so do you like it living there?


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## Alcalaina

I've noticed lots of Russian tourists in places Málaga and Seville so even if they aren't buying houses there might be work for something like a tour guide?


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## tonymar

raimik said:


> Well ...I know...is not going to be easy ...but worth to try
> 
> And you...are you happy there? Do you enjoy living in Agost? It is bit far away from beaches...and tourists...so do you like it living there?


Yes its worth a try !!

Agost is a very Spanish small village famous for pottery making , I have lived here 12 years 

I enjoy living in the country , although it is only a short drive to Alicante city and the beach.

I have a house and land that I would never been able to afford in the UK ! I also like the sun and good weather , also the slow pace of life ( I used to live in London every one seemed to rush )

Cheers Tony


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## raimik

Hi Alcalaina,
thank you for reply  
I know Malaga is lot of Russian tourists...but I think only in Summer...I would need job for all year around. I think that Alicante has better possibility all year....but maybe I am wrong ...


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## mrypg9

raimik said:


> Hi Naomira,
> yes, we will rent first and then we will make decision. If you know some nice place so give me an idea ...


Are you an EU citizen?


----------



## raimik

oh...I like small Spanish villages with typical Spanish houses and balcony full of flowers  ...we will go for a trip to mountain Maigmo ...so I will definitely visit Agost because is close...


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## raimik

Yes...I am EU citizen.


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## tonymar

raimik said:


> oh...I like small Spanish villages with typical Spanish houses and balcony full of flowers  ...we will go for a trip to mountain Maigmo ...so I will definitely visit Agost because is close...


Yes Maigmo is worth a visit , it is quite high , in fact only 1m less than snowden in Wales,

there is a nice path https://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDAQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alicantenatura.es%2Fvia-verde-agost-maigmo%2F&ei=Il9LVajvNMn0UODvgeAH&usg=AFQjCNE6pNTU-Bo20HsxZiltPsY5iQ0Kcw&sig2=Szs9b4X63e-hZMmpC67QWg&bvm=bv.92765956,d.ZGU

Cheers Tony


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## raimik

Thank you Tony for ideas  ...I want to see a lot ...Palmeral in Elche, Algar Waterfalls, Denia, Villajoyosa, Maigmo...all around Alicante


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## tonymar

raimik said:


> Thank you Tony for ideas  ...I want to see a lot ...Palmeral in Elche, Algar Waterfalls, Denia, Villajoyosa, Maigmo...all around Alicante


Enjoy your visit, the weather is really nice at the moment !

The algar waterfalls are beautiful , but the water is so cold !!

There is also a nice chocolate factory to visit in Villajoyosa called Valor , they give free tours !

Cheers Tony


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## raimik

Thank you Tony, 
I can't wait  
Cheers Raime


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## Tigerlillie

raimik said:


> Hi all,
> me and my partner, we are another couple which desperately want move to Spain ( Alicante).* I am reading all post from members, and mostly that posts are : don't move to Spain unless you have enough money* and don't buy property.
> Well...I think about it long time...and still want to try. Here in UK where we live from 2008 we need to pay £600 rent for accommodation.
> We have saved some money, so we are able to buy some cheap flat in Spain. But really not even half if we would want to buy property in UK .
> So living in own property which is possible for us in Spain...or paying for rent forever???
> I can speak basic Spanish...also Russia language...I just hope we will find some job and we will able to set up there. Any comment welcome ...thank you


It's not just about having enough money and if you read the posts that are telling people not to come I think you will find it's people who want to come to Spain on a whim with a troop of kids that will need to go to expensive international schools because they will have no chance in a spanish state school, who also think they can come over and start up or be building/plumbing/plastering/electrician/beautician and the list goes on. You on the other hand have a few things in your favour, you have no children therefore no education to fund or little mouths to feed, you have substantial savings (you have said you have enough to buy an apartment) and the thing that really goes in your favour is the fact you speak THREE languages one of which is spanish, I know you said basic but that's more than many who want to come over. So I see no reason why anyone would advise you not to give it a go.


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## raimik

Hi Tigerlillie, 

thank you for reply and thank you for positive thoughts  
The hardest step will be the first !!!


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## Pesky Wesky

Rabbitcat said:


> Lol Pesky your signature info sure does show how much an optimist you are!!!
> 
> Reckon I will sign off all my posts with a running total of this years road deaths!!!
> 
> Lighten up. We all appreciate the help guidance info given on the forum- a little less pessimism brightens everything up


Just letting you know I've updated my signature to include the latest data.
Unemployment's DOWN, "only" 22,5% now compared to 5.5% in the UK with under 25's coming in at 49,3% compared to 16,5% in the UK.
If I were an only English speaking person looking for work I can see where I'd stand more chance of finding employment.
Can't see any "lightening up" coming any time soon...


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## Rabbitcat

One can always lighten up

There's always someone worse off than ones self.

Glass half full, not half empty


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## Pesky Wesky

Rabbitcat said:


> One can always lighten up
> 
> There's always someone worse off than ones self.
> 
> Glass half full, not half empty


I'm pretty content with life here. I'm about 95% sure that my life has been better/ nicer/ more enjoyable whatever here than I would have had if I'd stayed in the UK.
But, as I've said before, I'm not thinking about me and what I want. I'm giving what I consider to be useful content about what Spain is like now, not what it was like in 1986 when I came here


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## Rabbitcat

95% contentment is amazing. You are very lucky. Enjoy your time


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## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> One can always lighten up
> 
> There's always someone worse off than ones self.
> 
> Glass half full, not half empty


There are very, very many people much worse off than I. My glass is always full....I am able to refill it.
That fact gives me no pleasure, however.
I find it rather distressing that there are so many with nothing in their glass at all.
Being content, no worries and so on doesn't have to make you oblivious of those who aren't nor of absolving you from doing what you can, however small, to help them.


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## Pesky Wesky

Rabbitcat said:


> 95% contentment is amazing. You are very lucky. Enjoy your time


Ayye Rabbitcat,
I didn't say 95% contentment!
Hopefully I will get there. Maybe if I reach retirement in good health and with enough funds!


----------

