# [Qs f/US expats] When to inform IRS about change of address (France, from US) + registration w/France impôts system



## calin-m

Now that the [TAX] season is [almost] upon us, I have two questions for those willing to share their experience/knowledge (somehow a follow-up to my earlier post here). Background:


in our case - arrival was in Sept of last year (2021) => only three months of French residency, so far, but most definitely planning to stay here:
our last jobs (part of 2021) were in the US => all income to be reported on W2s was originated in the US
need to report taxes in the US (as [still] citizens of that country) + the French bank account having had to be established here (not a US "tax", per-se, but required)

Qs, considering the above:

at which point in time someone in situation like ours reported to IRS a change of address (to France)? Right now / ASAP, or after the first full year spent in France, or after all the paperwork proves full French residency (wife is French citizen, but I am still within the first year of visa based stay)
does it make sense to register with the French impôts system right now (for 2021) a non-income Sept-Dec presence in France, if the intent behind it is to record what we believe to become the permanency? Or should we wait for a full calendar year? This is interesting from the perspective of a lot of services which have created challenges for us, not having records of impôts - so, we think, the sooner in their system, the better (even if the order of filing would be (1) US, then (2) France, and account for the agreements between the two countries)

NOTE: I asked this question earlier, and - in spite of some notes from various folks with experience, in this forum - our bank in France (HSBC) refused to fill out our financial residency for more than the US, although we said that maybe we should have both US and France documented as such. Just an interesting data point.


----------



## jweihl

We also moved to France from the US in September 2021. We have an extended mail forwarding (12 months instead of 1 year) and really aren't expecting mail from the IRS. Our mail is being forwarded to a family member in the US who bundles important stuff (very little of that) every so often and mails it to us in France. Our CPA said we could just change our address when we file our 2021 tax return by including the new address on the return. I'm not sure whether we'll use our French address (probably) or the address in the US where we currently have our mail forwarded. Its on the list of things to ask the CPA during the preparation of the return.

I had sort of planned to engage a french tax preparer and register with the french tax authority this spring. I'll be interested in any advice to the contrary.

It's interesting that HSBC refused to change your fiscal residency to France. They basically sent us forms requiring that we do so after we changed our address from our old US to our new French one.


----------



## rynd2it

calin-m said:


> Now that the [TAX] season is [almost] upon us, I have two questions for those willing to share their experience/knowledge (somehow a follow-up to my earlier post here). Background:
> 
> 
> in our case - arrival was in Sept of last year (2021) => only three months of French residency, so far, but most definitely planning to stay here:
> our last jobs (part of 2021) were in the US => all income to be reported on W2s was originated in the US
> need to report taxes in the US (as [still] citizens of that country) + the French bank account having had to be established here (not a US "tax", per-se, but required)
> 
> Qs, considering the above:
> 
> at which point in time someone in situation like ours reported to IRS a change of address (to France)? Right now / ASAP, or after the first full year spent in France, or after all the paperwork proves full French residency (wife is French citizen, but I am still within the first year of visa based stay)
> does it make sense to register with the French impôts system right now (for 2021) a non-income Sept-Dec presence in France, if the intent behind it is to record what we believe to become the permanency? Or should we wait for a full calendar year? This is interesting from the perspective of a lot of services which have created challenges for us, not having records of impôts - so, we think, the sooner in their system, the better (even if the order of filing would be (1) US, then (2) France, and account for the agreements between the two countries)
> 
> NOTE: I asked this question earlier, and - in spite of some notes from various folks with experience, in this forum - our bank in France (HSBC) refused to fill out our financial residency for more than the US, although we said that maybe we should have both US and France documented as such. Just an interesting data point.


Inform the IRS as soon as possible, if you file without informing them first it will raise a red flag and you'll probably get one of those "please contact us to confirm your identity" letters. I'd use registered post as well just to be sure they have got it.


----------



## calin-m

rynd2it said:


> Inform the IRS as soon as possible, if you file without informing them first it will raise a red flag and you'll probably get one of those "please contact us to confirm your identity" letters. I'd use registered post as well just to be sure they have got it.


The problem is that I am still "entangled" with them on a 2020 filing, which they originally refused to fulfil (i.e. I do not owe them anything - they just decided to retain part of what I claimed, while I was able to justify why they owe me more), and which is now back into the grinding wheels of their inner systems. My only concern is that a change of address to a French one will be treated as "Au revoir, notre ami", as my communications are now much more limited, and they'll know it.

The approach mentioned earlier, by @jwheil, may make more sense to my situation, if it is legally acceptable (i.e. provide change of address at the time of filing for 2021, and holding onto filing for 2021 until 2020 gets cleared up, or April hits - whichever comes first)


----------



## 255

@calin-m -- Basically, you have two legitimate choices (assuming your "old" address is no longer viable

a. Utilize a stateside address, either, as previously mentioned, a family member's residence or a mail forwarding service (my choice.)

b. Change your address to France.






Address Changes | Internal Revenue Service


How do I notify the IRS my address has changed?




www.irs.gov





I routinely use https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8822.pdf , but your new address will be picked up, by the IRS, if you just list it on your next 1040. It doesn't matter where you lived, when you did the work. I am in the same boat as you, with the IRS withholding a part of my 2020 refund. I obtained a "transcript" showing a 2020 credit and plan to utilize it for my 2021 return, if they haven't refunded me, by the time I file (I too have a query in, that I haven't received a response.

I have found that by utilizing a mail forwarding service, I've run into less "hassle" with banks and brokerage firms. I have used family, in the past, but in my experience with multiple family members, a mail forwarding service can be more reliable (although my mother was outstanding, she's long passed.)

As far as the IRS, I did have an issue, utilizing a U.S. address and claiming the F.E.I.E. (when I, in fact, I lived overseas,) but that was 25 years ago and the IRS lost in court, so now an U.S. address for a foreign resident is considered an "address of convivence.") It's de rigor to utilize your current address at the time when you file your tax return (even if it's a past return.) You're safe either way. Cheers, 255


----------



## calin-m

255 said:


> @calin-m -- Basically, you have two legitimate choices (assuming your "old" address is no longer viable
> 
> a. Utilize a stateside address, either, as previously mentioned, a family member's residence or a mail forwarding service (my choice.)


I am with TravelingMailbox for now, and planning to keep it for other reasons than taxes, possibly for years to come. You just raised an interesting issue: maybe I am looking at the matter all wrong, assuming that my "tax" address in the US needs to be a "residence/home" address, thus having to match the one in France, where I actually live ... but maybe I could use TravelingMailbox for IRS, and my home address in France, pour les impôts.


----------



## 255

@calin-m -- Yes, that's certainly an option. I opened an account, at a mail forwarding service in the middle '90s, when I was overseas and I was having issues (probably KYC rules,) while living overseas. Problem solved. I still have the box and use it for various things. I routinely forward my mail to it when I moved and it works great while travelling. The address at the IRS is for business with the IRS (correspondence, refund checks, audit notices, etc.) Bottom line, it's your choice. Cheers, 255


----------



## Bevdeforges

You're making this much more complicated than it needs to be.

First of all, the IRS and the Fisc don't actually compare notes on much of anything so it's not a matter of registering or de-registering with either tax service. Plus, you're expected to file resident forms for both the US and France in any event and to declare your "worldwide" income on both. (However, for the first year French forms, you only need to declare income received from your date of arrival to 31 December.) In the past, most folks just file their US return using their current (as of the date you file) address - so in your case, your French address. To play it safe, you may want to file one of those IRS change of address forms as explained here: Certain “Where To File” Addresses Updated for Form 8822 (Rev. October 2015) | Internal Revenue Service

Depending on what you are living on here in France, you may want to file a French declaration for the part of the year you did live in France - even if you won't owe any taxes. It's an easy way to get into the system so that you're all set to file next year (for the full year) and can file online because you'll have the various numbers you will need for that. 

Where it gets a little trickier is your US forms, since you file as a "resident taxpayer" for the full year no matter when you moved - and for the rest of your lives (until and unless you renounce your US citizenship, which is a rather drastic and expensive option). On the US forms, if you have earned income (i.e. salary or other work-related income) from the period after you moved to France, you may want to wait on filing your US returns until you have qualified for the physical presence test (if you will be using the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion) - which means that you would request an extension of the time to file for 2021 (make sure you have paid whatever tax you expect is due - either through withholdings or estimated payments) until October 2022. There should be an example of how this works in IRS Publication 54.


----------



## calin-m

Bevdeforges said:


> To play it safe, you may want to file one of those IRS change of address forms as explained here: Certain “Where To File” Addresses Updated for Form 8822 (Rev. October 2015) | Internal Revenue Service


Following up on this topic, for something with which I was ready to proceed, but got confused (a little): there is no longer a form 8822, but a form 8822-B (which does not seem to apply to me/us, anymore - no income to ever come from the US, only pension, a few years from now, so no checkbox valid), but which form (-B) calls out the no longer existent 8822 (plain)?!? Relevant links (sourced from @Bevdeforges):

link with all forms (no more "plain" 8822)
actual form (warning: PDF!) 8822-B, which calls the no longer available 8822?!?
EDIT: never mind my blurb above - found the "plain" 8822 in another place than the rest of forms I linked above. Leaving this here for others, in case they need a quick reference.


----------



## Chrissippus

The IRS doesn't know or care where I live. For the past ten years I have been using my mail forwarder's address in Florida. When filing using TurboTax at least, the program never asks for physical address.


----------

