# Any regrets about moving to Toronto/GTA



## born_expat (Mar 18, 2011)

Hi guys

We're more and more sure that, if we move to CA, it'll be in the Toronto suburbs. 

I wanted to throw a question out there (in a spirit of 'risk management'): has any of you done the move (I've love to hear from Europeans in particular, as our perspective about the differences with home will likely be quite similar) to Toronto, and have you regretted it for a reason or another? 

Basically, is there anything that a long-term resident should consider, that is particular to Toronto (cost of living aside), that could make the stay way less pleasant? 

So far, the only negative feedback I've received about Toronto was: 
- quite a lot colder than Vancouver, as large CA cities go.
- Canadians seem to mock it a lot, but I never got specifics. 
- cost of living way higher than other places in CA (to be expected given the size of the city)
- Pollution (I heard the smog was pretty bad at times)

But aside from that, I havne't heard anything special about particularly high provincial taxes, prohibitive city laws, intolerance to expats, and other local phenomena. If you've perceived some, I'd love to hear from you. You can PM if you're worried about being too negative on the forum.


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## born_expat (Mar 18, 2011)

Wow, am super pleased! No response! It's a good sign.


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## kamran (Mar 4, 2011)

where are you planning on moving in toronto? i was born there and lived there for 12 years. any questions you have i can answer.


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## born_expat (Mar 18, 2011)

kamran said:


> where are you planning on moving in toronto? i was born there and lived there for 12 years. any questions you have i can answer.


Oh thanks a lot! 

I have been asking specific question in separate threads (I presume that's less annoying from a forum housekeeping standpoint?). There'll be plenty more where that came from!


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## JGK (Dec 12, 2009)

So far I've lived in Montreal (6 years), Georgetown (ON, part of GTA, 1.5 Years) and Saskatoon (1.5 years).

While I liked Georgetown which has a lovely small town atmosphere I generally disliked and avoided the rest of the Toronto/GTA connurbation. I found it too big. awkward to get around and generally horrendous. (auto insurance is criminally expensive) 

Many Canadians mock it a lot as it is often perceived that "if it's not happening in Toronto it's not happening in Canada". Our local radio doesn't often refer to Toronto it just uses the phrase "centre of the universe".

this may have grown when Toronto and the GTA/ontario was the powerhouse of canada however, since the recession and Ontario becoming a "Have not" province, its sparkle has faded.


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## born_expat (Mar 18, 2011)

JGK said:


> So far I've lived in Montreal (6 years), Georgetown (ON, part of GTA, 1.5 Years) and Saskatoon (1.5 years).
> 
> While I liked Georgetown which has a lovely small town atmosphere I generally disliked and avoided the rest of the Toronto/GTA connurbation. I found it too big. awkward to get around and generally horrendous. (auto insurance is criminally expensive)
> 
> ...


Oh thanks, JGK. 

*Question 1*: What's criminally expensive? Right now, I pay about 120 euros / month for my car alone  I was kind of banking on the fact that W. Europe has got to be the world's most expensive place in the world in terms of cost of living (certainly if your kid goes to daycare)....

'Centre of the universe'? Sounds like the "Paris complex" in France, lol. Ah well, as long as am not the brunt of it...

Georgetown? How funny, also the loveliest neighborhood in DC. *Question 2*: Is Georgetown (Ontario) affordable at all? 

I'd have to be close to Toronto's Pearson airport (and to town, for my husband), but am a small town girl so it would definitely not be in the centre. 

*Question 3*: Is public transport any good from (likely West of Toronto) suburbia to centre? 

*Question 4*: What do you mean 'have not'? Has the recession made it significantly more challenging to live in for one reason or the other? (prohibitive tax laws, painful budget cuts on essential services, etc.)


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## born_expat (Mar 18, 2011)

kamran said:


> where are you planning on moving in toronto? i was born there and lived there for 12 years. any questions you have i can answer.


Sorry, I realise I haven't answered your question fully. The answer is I don't know precisely when. I am biding for time right now, trying to uncover any big reason why we shouldn't do it, trying to plan a recon trip there, etc. before I make my official transfer request. Once I've done that, it could be weeks or months before a job opportunity comes up and even then, I'd need to get it. 

Having said that, I am reasonably confident that, once I officially apply, it's pretty much a given (from the way recruitment told me they wanted to handle it, the US' huuuuge workload for the equivalent dept, my networking strategy once I pull the trigger, etc.).


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## kamran (Mar 4, 2011)

born_expat said:


> Oh thanks, JGK.
> 
> *Question 1*: What's criminally expensive? Right now, I pay about 120 euros / month for my car alone  I was kind of banking on the fact that W. Europe has got to be the world's most expensive place in the world in terms of cost of living (certainly if your kid goes to daycare)....
> 
> ...


if you want to live close to town and the airport then georgetown isnt what you're looking for. depends on if u want to buy or rent what kind of size you're looking for. what do you want around you? a lot of housing projects or nice parks/ravines? maybe you should look at etobicoke thats a nice area close to the lake and inbetween the city and airport. but honestly speaking if you live in the GTA from the lake to richmond hill and west from milton to pickering you are probably 30min away from the airport even if traffic has slow spots. 

public transport is great from all around the city. all though it has the usual delays due to maintenance its still very reliable and thousands of people rely on it a day. canadian income tax is horrible we got a new mayor who has promised to privatize the waste management sector of the city so there wont be a strike like there was 2 years ago.


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## born_expat (Mar 18, 2011)

kamran said:


> if you want to live close to town and the airport then georgetown isnt what you're looking for. depends on if u want to buy or rent what kind of size you're looking for. what do you want around you? a lot of housing projects or nice parks/ravines? maybe you should look at etobicoke thats a nice area close to the lake and inbetween the city and airport. but honestly speaking if you live in the GTA from the lake to richmond hill and west from milton to pickering you are probably 30min away from the airport even if traffic has slow spots.
> 
> public transport is great from all around the city. all though it has the usual delays due to maintenance its still very reliable and thousands of people rely on it a day. canadian income tax is horrible we got a new mayor who has promised to privatize the waste management sector of the city so there wont be a strike like there was 2 years ago.


Thanks so much! 

Frankly, tax simply CANNOT be worse than here in the Netherlands. I pay over 50% of my salary in income tax! That's not counting the local equivalent of the UK's council tax, then there's the water tax (to keep us safe from floods), etc. etc. etc. But I"ll do my homework properly and find out the Canadian tax structure and my likely taxation regime. 

Great about public transport. Very reassuring indeed. *Question: *And it's generally safe, in your opinion? (public transport). 

We'll need to rent in the 1st 3 years at least (before that, we would never have a PR, hence I understand mortages completely unaffordable). This is our wishlist: 


*Would like a green(ish), family-type neighbourhood. Natural wonders would be ace, but not a pre-requisite. If houses = row upon row of typical suburbian bungalows, so be it.

*Preferably no more than 1 hour's commute away from Toronto centre, and * preferably no more than 30 mins' away from Pearson airport.

* Preferably 3 bedrooms, but there's no way we can afford it, so minimum 2 bedrooms. AND,

* pet-friendly. 

I did some research on some real estate sites and it doesn't look like it'll be easy without paying upwards of 1300 in rent a month around Etiboke  So maybe we should look a little further out of Toronto still? Am finding it difficult to estimate the likely commute times from the map alone without knowing the local congestion spots. *Question*: In your opinion, what begins to be a silly distance from the centre (with a commute time to centre in excess of 1 hour), West of the city? Is 40km completely nuts to contemplate?


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## kamran (Mar 4, 2011)

born_expat said:


> Thanks so much!
> 
> Frankly, tax simply CANNOT be worse than here in the Netherlands. I pay over 50% of my salary in income tax! That's not counting the local equivalent of the UK's council tax, then there's the water tax (to keep us safe from floods), etc. etc. etc. But I"ll do my homework properly and find out the Canadian tax structure and my likely taxation regime.
> 
> ...



public transport is very safe. by far the safest on the continent. 

depending on where you live 40 km is pretty good but certain highways are really congested during rush hour. like the don valley parkway going into downtown in the morning. thats if you choose to live in the north or east end. the gardiner expressway is congested also going into downtown if u live on the south of the city and towards the west it will be a problem. most cookie cutter neighborhoods are found in the peripheral of the city. 

what is the budgest you're looking for? if you look at places like oakville, port credit which are on the west side or also the beaches or scarborough on the east side closer to the lake you would find something you're looking for i assume.


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## born_expat (Mar 18, 2011)

kamran said:


> public transport is very safe. by far the safest on the continent.
> 
> depending on where you live 40 km is pretty good but certain highways are really congested during rush hour. like the don valley parkway going into downtown in the morning. thats if you choose to live in the north or east end.
> 
> ...


Budget: Ideally, around 1200 in rent, for a 2-beds with garden and garage (AND has to be pet friendly. Our biggest hurdle so far). Really not sure that's realistic. 

Oakville is pretty much out of our league pricewise from what I could tell. As lakeside living isn't a pre-requisite, we were thinking (a few km) due North of Port Credit. Anywhere west of Port Credit would be a nightmare commute, am guessing.


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## JGK (Dec 12, 2009)

born_expat said:


> Oh thanks, JGK.
> 
> *Question 1*: What's criminally expensive? Right now, I pay about 120 euros / month for my car alone  I was kind of banking on the fact that W. Europe has got to be the world's most expensive place in the world in terms of cost of living (certainly if your kid goes to daycare)....
> 
> ...


*Question 1:* I was paying about the same CAD$1600 for an 8 year old car (not SUV or a truck) in 2009. I had 8 years provable no claims in Canada. In Saskatchewan I'm paying about 1/2 that.

*Question 2:* I picked Georgetown because it was affordable. I worked in Oakville/Missssauga which was a 35 minute commute, but property prices were out of my range. To get to downtown you could drive (1.5 hours) or you could use the go train From Georgetown or drive to Bramalea station. Georgetown's about 30 minutes from Pearson Airport.

*Question 3:* I've no experience of the public transport system.

*Question 4:* In Canada there are the "Have" (richer) and the "Have not" (poorer) provinces. Money from the richer provinces is paid to the federal Govt who pay "equalization" payments to the poorer provinces. Ontario has historically been one of the "Have's" but has slipped to "Have not" status recently.


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## born_expat (Mar 18, 2011)

Oh I see. 

Great about Georgetown, I'll look into it. 

Car insurance: man, that's no good. 

Haves/Have nots: I see, thanks for clarifying.


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## suyin (Mar 28, 2011)

*car insurance costs*

Hi, we moved to Thornhill, Ontario just over 7 months ago. We were previously in Trinidad for 2009/2010, but lived in the UK before then. Thornhill is in the GTA. We are just south of Richmond Hill, public transit is good, and it takes about an hour to get downtown from here if you use public transit. It would take the same amount of time to drive depending on the rush hour which could make your travel time significantly longer/shorter.

I just wanted to answer your question about car insurance. If you have never had any driving experience here in Canada in the past, you will be penalised by most insurers. The cheapest we were quoted was CAD $4700 a year, to tax 1 car. This was the discounted rate as we also took out home contents insurance. That works out as Euros 284/month!

There are a few insurers that will take into account driving experience abroad, we found one that took into account our no claims for the last 9 years in the UK, and that brought the premiums down to CAD2700, about Euro 163, so, still quite a lot. I would advise you to get a statement from your insurers where you are now, before you arrive, so that you have it to hand if you need it. You may be able to find an insurer that will give you recognition for it. Of course, if you have claimed on it, it may work against you.

I am not working here at the moment, my husband works and he gets taxed quite a bit 45% above CAD80k, I think. There is also a HST on most things you buy, processed food, clothing, shoes, in the shops, it's not included in the price, so add 13% tax to the price tag, I am still getting used to this. I know VAT in the UK is now 20%, but this is worked into the price, so you don't feel it as much, but it's still a tax, nonetheless.

Another thing to beware is that if you have no credit history in Canada, eg, you have no credit cards from here, you will find that restrictions will be put on you until you get this credit history. You may find it hard to get finance for anything, and will need to get a credit card which you have to secure by paying an X amount into a savings account, or giving that X amount to the credit card company to hold until you prove your credibility, which may take up to 12 months. You will encounter this when you try to get a mobile phone with a contract too.

Another thing about cell phones(mobiles) is you pay for virtually everything, even on a contract you pay for certain things. You pay to receive calls and text messages, even if you are in your local location. You pay for voicemail, caller display(i.d), call waiting and a whole dearth other things. This makes the cell phone quite an expensive essential.


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## suyin (Mar 28, 2011)

born_expat said:


> Oh I see.
> 
> Great about Georgetown, I'll look into it.
> 
> ...



I just wanted to answer your question about car insurance. If you have never had any driving experience here in Canada in the past, you will be penalised by most insurers. The cheapest we were quoted was CAD $4700 a year, to tax 1 car. This was the discounted rate as we also took out home contents insurance. That works out as Euros 284/month!

There are a few insurers that will take into account driving experience abroad, we found one that took into account our no claims for the last 9 years in the UK, and that brought the premiums down to CAD2700, about Euro 163, so, still quite a lot. I would advise you to get a statement from your insurers where you are now, before you arrive, so that you have it to hand if you need it. You may be able to find an insurer that will give you recognition for it. Of course, if you have claimed on it, it may work against you.

I am not working here at the moment, my husband works and he gets taxed quite a bit 45% above CAD80k, I think. There is also a HST on most things you buy, processed food, clothing, shoes, in the shops, it's not included in the price, so add 13% tax to the price tag, I am still getting used to this. I know VAT in the UK is now 20%, but this is worked into the price, so you don't feel it as much, but it's still a tax, nonetheless.

Another thing to beware is that if you have no credit history in Canada, eg, you have no credit cards from here, you will find that restrictions will be put on you until you get this credit history. You may find it hard to get finance for anything, and will need to get a credit card which you have to secure by paying an X amount into a savings account, or giving that X amount to the credit card company to hold until you prove your credibility, which may take up to 12 months. You will encounter this when you try to get a mobile phone with a contract too.

Another thing about cell phones(mobiles) is you pay for virtually everything, even on a contract you pay for certain things. You pay to receive calls and text messages, even if you are in your local location. You pay for voicemail, caller display(i.d), call waiting and a whole dearth other things. This makes the cell phone quite an expensive essential.


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## born_expat (Mar 18, 2011)

suyin said:


> Hi, we moved to Thornhill, Ontario just over 7 months ago. We were previously in Trinidad for 2009/2010, but lived in the UK before then. Thornhill is in the GTA. We are just south of Richmond Hill, public transit is good, and it takes about an hour to get downtown from here if you use public transit. It would take the same amount of time to drive depending on the rush hour which could make your travel time significantly longer/shorter.
> 
> I just wanted to answer your question about car insurance. If you have never had any driving experience here in Canada in the past, you will be penalised by most insurers. The cheapest we were quoted was CAD $4700 a year, to tax 1 car. This was the discounted rate as we also took out home contents insurance. That works out as Euros 284/month!
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for your thorough answer. I really appreciate you taking the time. It's all the more relevant to me that you used to live in the UK, so you can compare. 

Man, the car insurance situation seems scary as! We'd have two cars to insure! Am in the process of finding out whether I'd get a lease car, which would relieve us somehow. Something tells me that we wouldn't get away with being a 1-car family, though, no matter how good public transport is. 

I would be getting a mobile phone with my job, so I think that's OK. My husband wouldn't, though. So good of you to warn us about the hassles and costs there. Outrageous that they charge roaming costs for inland calls too! 

*Question*: Are internet/telephone costs also nuts? We currently pay about 25 euros/month for broadband + telephone. 

I would be traveling quite a bit for my job, so I'd need a credit card with quite a big limit to tie me over until my expenses are paid. So that's another burden to think about. It's disappointing that I can't just keep using my current credit card accounts. They're with major, global companies and I have excellent ratings...

To think I was putting cost of living as a plus in comparison to our current situation. Am going to have to sit down and do some serious budgetting. I just researched the cost of childcare and it is SCARY. Nearly as much as in the Netherlands, and I undestand that only needy families get govt subsidies for it. 

45% above CAD 80K sounds reasonable (comparatively). Finally, a piece of good news. :clap2:


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## suyin (Mar 28, 2011)

born_expat said:


> Thank you so much for your thorough answer. I really appreciate you taking the time. It's all the more relevant to me that you used to live in the UK, so you can compare.
> 
> Man, the car insurance situation seems scary as! We'd have two cars to insure! Am in the process of finding out whether I'd get a lease car, which would relieve us somehow. Something tells me that we wouldn't get away with being a 1-car family, though, no matter how good public transport is.
> 
> ...


Credit cards- you can continue to use your global cards, I'm sure, American Express etc, but if you want to apply for one from here, you may not get the credit you want initially. Perhaps work could give you backing for this, get a card through your work, that may work.

The best way to cut down on all the mobile costs is to get a contract that allows you to have some favourite numbers/ or same provider numbers calls for free.

Home phone and internet and cable TV packages are available, but not necessarily cheap... Toronto is not a cheap place to live, 8th most expensive city in the world. We currently pay for high speed internet, cable TV, phone, and it comes to over CAD 160 a month, if you take away the TV, it's still about CAD 85/month

Finally, car insurance, you'd still need insurance with a lease car, and depending on your status here when you land, you may not automatically qualify for a lease car.. these are some hurdles we have come across, some painfully hobbled over, some we had to rethink. We had no real choice but to come, if we had a choice, I am not sure we would have come. 

My own hassle is trying to get a license to practise as a nurse here, they want so much stuff it's unbelievable, despite me having trained in the UK, worked nearly 20 years as a nurse, and also done several modules in a MSc! I have managed to secure a job at McDs, within walking distance as we have 1 car, a real come down from being an Advanced Nurse Practitioner, non medical prescriber in the UK. Not to mention my midwifery qualification, still, musn't moan, got a roof over our heads, food in the table, computer access lol..

Rent here can be pricey depending where you want to live, in a month we are moving to a 3 bedroomed townhouse just round the corner and the rent is CAD 2050/month, not inclusive!

Do your research, and budget well, we were well stung!


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## JGK (Dec 12, 2009)

born_expat said:


> *Question*: Are internet/telephone costs also nuts? We currently pay about 25 euros/month for broadband + telephone.


These are the prices I was paying in 2009 for the GTA

*Landline telephone* will cost you the (approximately) 29 Euro's/month for the most basic service. A lot of stuff which was standard in the UK is charged as a "extra" in canada. You will also be charged a fee for a long distance plan (5 Euros for just being able to dial long distance, call then charged at x cents/min), I did not bother and use calling cards instead. The $10_ CiCi_ card gets me 600 minutes of calls to the UK or long distance in North America (last for 6 months after activation, available from most convenience stores). VOIP services may be cheaper. Also be Aware that the GTA has the 905 prefix but dialing from the 905 to another 905 number is often regarded as a long distance call. For example, in Georgetown, dialing downtown Toronto (416 prefix) was a local call. Mississauga and Oakville (geographically closer) were long distance.

*DSL Internet* will cost you the (approximately) 33 Euro's/month (20 Gb download limit with charges for going over).

*Cell phone:* Depends on the plan you go for, anything from 22 Euro's (Very basic plan) and up. Cell phone costs are atrocious compared to the UK. Personally, I have a PAYG mobile and even then you get screwed because your credit is time limited (lasts anything from 30 days to 1 year depending on the amount added).

:ranger:


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## born_expat (Mar 18, 2011)

suyin said:


> Credit cards- you can continue to use your global cards, I'm sure, American Express etc, but if you want to apply for one from here, you may not get the credit you want initially. Perhaps work could give you backing for this, get a card through your work, that may work.
> 
> The best way to cut down on all the mobile costs is to get a contract that allows you to have some favourite numbers/ or same provider numbers calls for free.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for all the details. I really appreciate it. 

*Budget*: Yep, am thought exactly. Am definitely going to do a budget (as realistic as I can get it, and posts like yours help enormously in that task). 

*Credit card through work*. Good suggestion. I'll ask them. I'd only really need it for work trips. We're not big credit users, my husband and I. 

*Current credit cards extended*: I'll find out from my current credit card companies if they're amenable to that. 

*Rent*: Wow, over 2000 CAD/month excl! The financial aspect is starting to feel like a cold shower as, here in the Netherlands, the cost of living is crazy, so I'd banked on the fact that it couldn't be worse. The more I find out, the more that looked like a wrong assumption. Thank goodness am doing my research and didn't follow my initial gut instinct of 'just going for it'. 

*Car insurance*: What creative solutions are there to get around the fact that it's prohibitively expensive to insure a car there? PM me if you'd like (if it was REALLLY creative, lol). 

You still sound pretty positive, though, hey. So all in all, although you say you wouldn't have done it given a choice, any regrets? Or are you happy now that the hurdles are getting managed one by one, that you've done it?


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## born_expat (Mar 18, 2011)

JGK said:


> These are the prices I was paying in 2009 for the GTA
> 
> *Landline telephone* will cost you the (approximately) 29 Euro's/month for the most basic service. A lot of stuff which was standard in the UK is charged as a "extra" in canada. You will also be charged a fee for a long distance plan (5 Euros for just being able to dial long distance, call then charged at x cents/min), I did not bother and use calling cards instead. The $10_ CiCi_ card gets me 600 minutes of calls to the UK or long distance in North America (last for 6 months after activation, available from most convenience stores). VOIP services may be cheaper. Also be Aware that the GTA has the 905 prefix but dialing from the 905 to another 905 number is often regarded as a long distance call. For example, in Georgetown, dialing downtown Toronto (416 prefix) was a local call. Mississauga and Oakville (geographically closer) were long distance.
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot! Wow, telecoms don't come cheap in CA, hey?


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