# Sigh.. landlord woes



## highbinder (Sep 2, 2013)

Hello everyone,

Found your forums a while back but never had a reason to register,, until now,,

I need some advice regarding my landlord, and you've guessed it, my deposit! 

Heres the situation:

I rented a flat through an estate agents, paying two months deposit. I was there a year and I moved out two months ago, and when I moved out the agents told me they would hold the deposit until the final bills came for the utilities. We were told usually half was paid back straight away and the other half kept for the bills. Our bills are paid. 

We had a meeting shortly after leaving at the estate agent with the agent and the landlord, where they told us they wanted to give it back in one go, but in a month. Okay, fair enough I suppose. We co-signed a page stating the facts (left x date, deposit of y still to be paid, to z bank details, to be paid by on x date).

But still nothing. I contacted the agents again after the expected due date of the money transfer and was told the owner 'lost' my bank details. I give them again. The agent tells me the owner has told him it's sent, but it's still not arrived.

Want I want to know is what I should do now! I have the original contract, the contract for my new house, the co-signed slip, all my (paid) facturas, and a copy of all email correspondance between us. 

Should I contact the police and request a denuncia? Sometimes I wish I still lived in the UK :confused2: 

Any help would really be appreciated guys!


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Well, one lesson of this is that you don't pay your last month's or months' rent as the likelihood of recovering your deposit is slight, judging from my own and others' experiences.
When we began having problems with our landlord's agent we surmised we'd never see our 1800 euros deposit so we gave notice and stopped paying which is actually what our current landlord advised us to do so he won't be getting his deposit back..and he knows it!
You could make a denuncia. Does the agent have a Complaints Book? If so, you could ask for it and make a formal complaint.
Don't know what else you can do, really, apart from learn from the experience.


----------



## highbinder (Sep 2, 2013)

I'm sorry but I was raised to abide the law. I don't think breaking the law (not paying the last) is any kind of solution to potentially not getting a deposit back. Especially considered most deposits are two months of rent.

MOST circumstances I've seen where the landlord doesn't pay is because of some BS reason such as property damage. Mine has give me no justification, infact quite the opposite, telling the agents he sent it. 

Surely there is something in place to protect the tennants. Maybe contacting the head office for the lettings company would be better than a denuncia through the police?


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> Well, one lesson of this is that you don't pay your last month's or months' rent as the likelihood of recovering your deposit is slight, judging from my own and others' experiences.
> When we began having problems with our landlord's agent we surmised we'd never see our 1800 euros deposit so we gave notice and stopped paying which is actually what our current landlord advised us to do so he won't be getting his deposit back..and he knows it!
> You could make a denuncia. Does the agent have a Complaints Book? If so, you could ask for it and make a formal complaint.
> Don't know what else you can do, really, apart from learn from the experience.



You shouldn't really be suggesting (via this forum) that people break the law!

Not paying the last month's rent and telling the landlord to use the fianza is against the law! As a landlord, I know the law on this. You might think it's a clever thing to do but it's not.

The agent MUST have a complaints book - by law. If he is trading illegally then denounce him and the landlord to the police and to hacienda.


If you still get no joy then I'm afraid it is a lesson learned - which, I know, is no consolation. There is really nothing that you could have done differently.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

highbinder said:


> I'm sorry but I was raised to abide the law. I don't think breaking the law (not paying the last) is any kind of solution to potentially not getting a deposit back. Especially considered most deposits are two months of rent.
> 
> MOST circumstances I've seen where the landlord doesn't pay is because of some BS reason such as property damage. Mine has give me no justification, infact quite the opposite, telling the agents he sent it.
> 
> Surely there is something in place to protect the tennants. Maybe contacting the head office for the lettings company would be better than a denuncia through the police?


it IS sad, but it is also the way almost everyone does it - as you say, they usually come up with some BS reason to not return it

first step - ask the agent for the complaints book

if that doesn't work - denounce the owner AND the agent


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

It's breaking a CONTRACT. I broke the contract with the agent because the agent had already broken the terms of the contract by refusing to do structural repairs after that huge storm here four years ago.
Breaking contracts is not quite the same as breaking the law.
Frankly, when nine out of ten tenants don't get their deposit back or if they do then not without some ridiculous quibble which results usually in a large amount or even the total being withheld then imo it's a reasonable way to act.
After all, the landlord is also breaking his/her side of the contract.
If the landlord/agent had fulfilled their side of the contract by performing contractually agreed repairs I would have kept to my side of the contract. But they didn't, they demanded we pay for these repairs and I realised then these people were not going to be bound by any contract. I don't put my head in the lion's mouth and I don't give away 1800euros.

If you withhold your last month's rent, you will not be arrested by a policeman. You have broken the terms of a contract, not the law of the land. In many cases, such as mine, the contract was invalid anyway as it was an eleven month's contract and neither the landlord's nor agent's DNI was given and it wasn't even signed and dated! Which LAW states you must pay a two months' deposit? I thought the usual contractual period was one month....
We were new in Spain then. We've learned.
I was a landlord too in the UK and elsewhere...


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

highbinder said:


> I'm sorry but I was raised to abide the law. I don't think breaking the law (not paying the last) is any kind of solution to potentially not getting a deposit back. Especially considered most deposits are two months of rent.
> 
> MOST circumstances I've seen where the landlord doesn't pay is because of some BS reason such as property damage. Mine has give me no justification, infact quite the opposite, telling the agents he sent it.
> 
> Surely there is something in place to protect the tennants. Maybe contacting the head office for the lettings company would be better than a denuncia through the police?


You are not 'breaking the law'. You would have been 'guilty' of breach of contract....as is your landlord now. 
You can write to the Head Office but I doubt that will get any result.
Most tenants will tell you that the only protection they have against such landlords is to be able to withhold money, a legitimate practice in some circumstances. It is your chief defence against the other party breaking the terms of the contract, which most landlords do, as you say, by inventing spurious reasons for withholding the deposit.

I was a landlord in the UK and Canada. I know the law of contracts. They are applicable to both parties equally. This is Spain not the UK and although there are measures to protect tenants I haven't heard of one case where a tenant has recovered a deposit.

Our current landlord has had 2000 euros of our money for over four years for this unfurnished house. He knows he won't get it back when we eventually leave and he'll be thankful as he won't have to scrape around for 2000 euros which he probably spent on a holiday when he got it!.
And I suspect that's the case with very many landlords. They just don't have the money to give back...Which of course, if they put themselves knowingly in that position, is also breach of contract.


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> It's breaking a CONTRACT. I broke the contract with the agent because the agent had already broken the terms of the contract by refusing to do structural repairs after that huge storm here four years ago.
> Breaking contracts is not quite the same as breaking the law.
> Frankly, when nine out of ten tenants don't get their deposit back or if they do then not without some ridiculous quibble which results usually in a large amount or even the total being withheld then imo it's a reasonable way to act.
> After all, the landlord is also breaking his/her side of the contract.
> ...




The 'law' is that you should expect to have to put down 1 months rent for a non-furnished property and 2 months for a furnished one - this is the maximum you should have to pay. If they ask for more, then it's up to you if you pay it. This was part of the rental law that was updated earlier this year.

Regarding the fianza - I was told by my lawyer that the tenant can NOT expect to use the fianza for the last months rent nor for the last months bill. This money, by law, should be deposited into a special account and can only be used to repair the property once the tenant leaves. It is not simply breaking the contract to use the finance money for the last months rent but is actually against rental 'law' - I will try and find the appropriate piece of legislation.

I totally agree that this is NOT what happens but then so many other laws seem to be broken in Spain.

As you say, once bitten ......

For all other tenants; 
Contracts must now be either 6 or 12 months and written in Spanish. You have an automatic right to stay in the property for a further 3 years with NO new contract or any agent fees etc.
Deposits (finaza) should be no more than 1 months rent if unfurnished and 2 months rent if furnished and can ONLY be used for repairs to the property when you leave.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

highbinder said:


> I'm sorry but I was raised to abide the law. I don't think breaking the law (not paying the last) is any kind of solution to potentially not getting a deposit back. Especially considered most deposits are two months of rent.
> 
> MOST circumstances I've seen where the landlord doesn't pay is because of some BS reason such as property damage. Mine has give me no justification, infact quite the opposite, telling the agents he sent it.
> 
> Surely there is something in place to protect the tennants. Maybe contacting the head office for the lettings company would be better than a denuncia through the police?


You may want to take into account that you're living in a foreign country here and some things are viewed differently. We own our house, but both my husband (Spanish) and I have rented here. The fianza was always seen as the last month's rent. It wasn't breaking the law OR breaking the contract OR a bull sh*t reason not to give money back OR any of the other reasons stated here.
It was the way it was done.
That, of course, was giving the proper amount of notice and talking to the landlord.

It won't help you anyway as that's not what you did, but you might want to think about that for your next rental.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I think the good old precept 'caveat emptor' applies to rental contracts as much as to other commercial transactions. 

Also, is Snikpoh correct in stating that the LAU stipulates matters such as amount of deposit?
I thought LAU applied only to tenants' and landlords' rights in the broader sense and not to matters which are the subject of contractual agreement between landlord and tenant.

After all, there is statutory legislation, criminal law and civil law. These are often confused, in my experience.


----------



## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> And what is the plural of 'asterix'?


Do you mean "asterisk" (the star-shaped character), or Asterix the Gaul, the popular French cartoon by Goscinny and Uderzo? If you mean asterisk then the plural form is simply asterisks. If you mean Asterix then there is only one and there can never two or more....


----------



## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

I've just read my last post and edited a spelling mistake brought about courtesy of my Spanish keyboard. Having read it, I am about to have a lunchtime brandy (con hielo coz it's damned hot) and make a promise to myself to get out more....


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> You may want to take into account that you're living in a foreign country here and some things are viewed differently. We own our house, but both my husband (Spanish) and I have rented here. The fianza was always seen as the last month's rent. It wasn't breaking the law OR breaking the contract OR a bull sh*t reason not to give money back OR any of the other reasons stated here.
> It was the way it was done.
> That, of course, was giving the proper amount of notice and talking to the landlord.
> 
> It won't help you anyway as that's not what you did, but you might want to think about that for your next rental.


& that's it in a nutshell really

it might not be what the contract says, nor what the law says, but very often it's what happens with the agreement of the landlord & tenant

all too often though, the landlord won't agree to it - & you know darn well that you have little chance of getting the deposit back from other things which might have happened

friends of friends of mine just returned to the UK - their agent kept telling them not to worry about the deposit - she'd get it back to them

the owner had already told them that she had spent it on getting the place clean & repaired for them to move in - & to install an oven which never materialised

I seriously doubt they'll ever see their money again - they paid the rent right up to the day they left


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

highbinder said:


> I'm sorry but I was raised to abide the law. I don't think breaking the law (not paying the last) is any kind of solution to potentially not getting a deposit back. Especially considered most deposits are two months of rent.
> 
> MOST circumstances I've seen where the landlord doesn't pay is because of some BS reason such as property damage. Mine has give me no justification, infact quite the opposite, telling the agents he sent it.
> 
> Surely there is something in place to protect the tennants. Maybe contacting the head office for the lettings company would be better than a denuncia through the police?


1. You shouldn't have paid TWO months as a deposit they are only allowed to request ONE month.

2. Go back to the agent and demand the "Hoja de Reclamaciones" - they are required by law to have one (it is the official complaints book/form which you submit to the authorities - it invariably produces results faster than a denuncia (frequently instantly!) since it results in an official investigation and most businesses have things that they don't want official noses poked into!


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

baldilocks said:


> 1. You shouldn't have paid TWO months as a deposit they are only allowed to request ONE month.
> 
> 2. Go back to the agent and demand the "Hoja de Reclamaciones" - they are required by law to have one (it is the official complaints book/form which you submit to the authorities - it invariably produces results faster than a denuncia (frequently instantly!) since it results in an official investigation and most businesses have things that they don't want official noses poked into!



.... I thought that until the new law (this year) was pointed out to me. 1 month for unfurnished, 2 for furnished (or less if the landlord agrees).


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> I think the good old precept 'caveat emptor' applies to rental contracts as much as to other commercial transactions.
> 
> Also, is Snikpoh correct in stating that the LAU stipulates matters such as amount of deposit?
> I thought LAU applied only to tenants' and landlords' rights in the broader sense and not to matters which are the subject of contractual agreement between landlord and tenant.
> ...


Here's a link where it mentions how much deposit can be taken (according to LAU)
Devolución de la fianza en el arrendamiento

I can't find any reference to 1 month unfurnished and 2 months for furnished so I think I must have dreamed it!


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

snikpoh said:


> Here's a link where it mentions how much deposit can be taken (according to LAU)
> Devolución de la fianza en el arrendamiento
> 
> I can't find any reference to 1 month unfurnished and 2 months for furnished so I think I must have dreamed it!


Ésta consiste en una mensualidad de renta en los casos de arrendamiento de viviendas y de dos mensualidades de renta en los casos de arrendamiento de uso distinto a vivienda (locales, oficinas,etc).

In other words one month for a dwelling, two months for other types of property.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

snikpoh said:


> Here's a link where it mentions how much deposit can be taken (according to LAU)
> Devolución de la fianza en el arrendamiento
> 
> I can't find any reference to 1 month unfurnished and 2 months for furnished so I think I must have dreamed it!


That was interesting, thanks. Useful too.
My Spanish isn't as good as yours so I may be wrong but it seemed to me as if there were some uncertainty about the retention of the fianza and that a judge would determine on a case by case basis.
Is that right?


----------



## Navas (Sep 2, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> That was interesting, thanks. Useful too.
> My Spanish isn't as good as yours so I may be wrong but it seemed to me as if there were some uncertainty about the retention of the fianza and that a judge would determine on a case by case basis.
> Is that right?


I think what it's saying is that the judges have decided that a deposit is to ensure that tenants fulfill their obligations (ie don't mess up the property) and, as such, the deposit money cannot be deducted from the rent on the pretext that the money belongs to the tenant. It goes on to say that the landlord is obliged to return the deposit, at the end of the contract, once it has been decided that the tenants have fulfilled their obligations.

How did my Spanish fare?


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Navas said:


> I think what it's saying is that the judges have decided that a deposit is to ensure that tenants fulfill their obligations (ie don't mess up the property) and, as such, the deposit money cannot be deducted from the rent on the pretext that the money belongs to the tenant. It goes on to say that the landlord is obliged to return the deposit, at the end of the contract, once it has been decided that the tenants have fulfilled their obligations.
> 
> How did my Spanish fare?


I think you have it in a nutshell. I think your Spanish fared very well!


----------



## Guest (Sep 5, 2013)

*A quick question*



baldilocks said:


> 1. Go back to the agent and demand the "Hoja de Reclamaciones" - they are required by law to have one (it is the official complaints book/form which you submit to the authorities - it invariably produces results faster than a denuncia (frequently instantly!) since it results in an official investigation and most businesses have things that they don't want official noses poked into!


Does one have to go to the offending agent's office to ask for the "Hoja de Reclamaciones"? Or can this be done via mail? Internet?


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mysticsmick said:


> Does one have to go to the offending agent's office to ask for the "Hoja de Reclamaciones"? Or can this be done via mail? Internet?


As far as I am aware you have to go in person, but maybe somebody else can advise differently.


----------



## Guest (Sep 5, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> As far as I am aware you have to go in person, but maybe somebody else can advise differently.


I suspect you are right... it makes sense, but we wanted to avoid having to travel down to Madrid to get this done... sigh.


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I wonder how many of those ex-tenants who are advocating not paying the last months rent and letting the landlord keep the deposit to cover it, also indulged in the other favourite escape trick of not paying the last utility bills either... leaving the landlord with a property he can't rent, because he only finds that the utilities weren't paid by the last tenant when they get cut off, until he forks out of his own pocket to settle the bills and pay the charges for reconnection.... losing out on about 3 months of rental value in the process... or worse, having to explain to the next tenants why they've suddenly been left without electricity or gas....


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

mysticsmick said:


> I suspect you are right... it makes sense, but we wanted to avoid having to travel down to Madrid to get this done... sigh.


A few years back I tried to get the hojas de reclamaciones for a business in Alicante from where I had purchased goods over the internet, and guess what? You do indeed have to go in person.

Seems like the electronic age hasn't arrived at consumer protection in Spain yet...


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Overandout said:


> I wonder how many of those ex-tenants who are advocating not paying the last months rent and letting the landlord keep the deposit to cover it, also indulged in the other favourite escape trick of not paying the last utility bills either... leaving the landlord with a property he can't rent, because he only finds that the utilities weren't paid by the last tenant when they get cut off, until he forks out of his own pocket to settle the bills and pay the charges for reconnection.... losing out on about 3 months of rental value in the process... or worse, having to explain to the next tenants why they've suddenly been left without electricity or gas....


Well I can assure you I didn't. I pay what I owe but I am not so daft as to give away 1800 euros which I knew from the landlord's previous behaviour that I wouldn't get back.
Since I myself have been a tenant in the Czech Republic and Spain utility bills have always been in my name, paid from my bank account by direct debit/standing order whichever. I would not accept any other arrangement.
As a former landlord I expected and ensured that phone, gas, water and electricity accounts were in the tenant's name.
I was a fair landlord and I am an excellent tenant. I pay my rent a year in advance. 
But I am not a mug. If I want to give money way I'll give it to my favourite charity, not some impecunious landlord who probably spent the deposit on a holiday/car/paying off debts shortly after he received it.
I would only be prepared to play by the rules if the deposit were kept by a neutral third party. But not by the landlord.


----------



## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

snikpoh said:


> You shouldn't really be suggesting (via this forum) that people break the law!
> 
> Not paying the last month's rent and telling the landlord to use the fianza is against the law! As a landlord, I know the law on this. You might think it's a clever thing to do but it's not.
> 
> ...


Hi - whilst I do appreciate your sentiment re. staying within the law, in Spain, the reality is that tenants seem to have few rights and, as you've agreed, little recourse to justice, when deposits are not returned! 

In my adopted city, it's common knowledge amongst tenants, of all ages, locals and expats, that the chances of ever getting our deposits back, at the end of a tenancy, are remote, at best. I would certainly not wish to write off the several hundred euros which I've paid as deposit on my own rented flat! Why should we tenants be at such a disadvantage, in this scenario? 

The law in this case, is lacking and my own landlord, who's taken no interest, whatsoever, in the condition of her property, over the past three years, will certainly not be keeping my deposit, as an undeserved 'perk', if I can avoid her doing so, when I leave…!

Saludos,
GC


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Overandout said:


> A few years back I tried to get the hojas de reclamaciones for a business in Alicante from where I had purchased goods over the internet, and guess what? You do indeed have to go in person.
> 
> Seems like the electronic age hasn't arrived at consumer protection in Spain yet...


Well according to this, it has

Hojas de Reclamaciones

*Las hojas de reclamaciones deberán estar en todos los locales comerciales y centros de trabajo* (incluidos los transportes públicos) dónde se realicen transacciones comerciales con los clientes. En el caso de la venta a distancia (por catálogo, teléfono, internet…) las empresas dispondrán igualmente de hojas de reclamaciones y se las remitirán a sus consumidores (en un plazo no superior normalmente a 3 días) cuando estos las soliciten.


----------



## al_bryant (Aug 16, 2013)

We had English landlords so we thought we would be OK compared to some of the stories you hear about people losing a few thousand Euros. Unfortunately we were wrong but luckily (much to peoples disagreement on the forum) withheld our rent. We were returning to the UK and needed to be able to pay for our shipping and we were pretty sure our landlords were bagging our deposit. All in all we lost over €1500 to our landlords through various different things so I'm glad we withheld at least one month's rent to help ourselves out.

Needs must sometimes.


----------



## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

Overandout said:


> I wonder how many of those ex-tenants who are advocating not paying the last months rent and letting the landlord keep the deposit to cover it, also indulged in the other favourite escape trick of not paying the last utility bills either... leaving the landlord with a property he can't rent, because he only finds that the utilities weren't paid by the last tenant when they get cut off, until he forks out of his own pocket to settle the bills and pay the charges for reconnection.... losing out on about 3 months of rental value in the process... or worse, having to explain to the next tenants why they've suddenly been left without electricity or gas....


Hi - in my case, I paid the landlord a month's deposit; the agent his 'fianza' as it was termed and a month's rent in advance. 1800 euros in total. I then paid to have both electricity and water supplies connected. Unfortunately, the company 'Inspectors', in each case, were unable to authorise either - as they discovered that there were no water pipes or electric cables in place beyond the apartment block's entrance, up to my first floor flat!!! 

My landlord's agent was totally uninterested in this matter, telling me that he'd been assured, by his client, that all was in order, prior to the flat having been advertised for rent. Fortunately, a Spanish friend contacted 'FAQUA' on my behalf. 

Here's a link, for anyone who doesn't know of this excellent Spanish Consumers' org: 
english.facua.org - Consumers in Action

it was incredible to note how fast the agent was able to resolve my problem, once he'd received a FAQUA letter warning him of legal action to be taken against both himself and the landlord (at their own cost), should he neither arrange for the necessary pipework and cables to be installed, nor exchange what was, in fact, an 'illegal' contract for a' legal' one…! FAQUA also insisted that I should be granted a two months' rent -free period, as I was unable to move into the flat until the utilities were connected. A great result, as i'd no idea what, if any, options were open to me, until I received FAQUA's free help! 

So, as you can see - in Spain, as in the UK and elsewhere, no doubt, there are disreputable landlords and agents -just as there are tenants who leave properties without paying their bills! 

In Spain, however, the law now enables landlords to evict tenants for non- payment of rent after three months. But I was forced to with-hold a proportion of my rental fees, last Spring, to pay for necessary repairs which had been outstanding (and notified to the agent) over a three year period! Luckily, I was very well advised by a Spanish friend who was also an experienced landlord - so I took the precaution of notifying the agent, in advance, of my intentions, via a Post Office 'burro- fax!' He was absolutely livid, having ignored, completely, my many previous pleas for assistance - but he then accepted my payment of a reduced rent, without further comment! . I did, of course, provide copies of all the receipts received from the tradespeople concerned.


Saludos,
GC


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - in my case, I paid the landlord a month's deposit; the agent his 'fianza' as it was termed and a month's rent in advance. 1800 euros in total. I then paid to have both electricity and water supplies connected. Unfortunately, the company 'Inspectors', in each case, were unable to authorise either - as they discovered that there were no water pipes or electric cables in place beyond the apartment block's entrance, up to my first floor flat!!!
> 
> My landlord's agent was totally uninterested in this matter, telling me that he'd been assured, by his client, that all was in order, prior to the flat having been advertised for rent. Fortunately, a Spanish friend contacted 'FAQUA' on my behalf.
> 
> ...


Your case is quite different to the others who simply don't pay the last months rent. What you have done is the correct way to do things and just goes to show that even in Spain, there is no need to unilaterally break contractual agreements in the "fear of being ripped off" (which is effectively applying a contractual remedy to a default which has not yet happened, and totally against the law of contracts as stipualated in the Código Civil).

With regards to utilities, it is seriously NOT a good idea to allow tenants to put the supply contracts in their own name. 

I personally know a landlord who did just that. The tenant disappeared (obviously without paying the last months rent) and leaving 2 months utilities unpaid.

The electricity was cut off for non-payment and the landlord tried repeatedly to settle the account on his own so as to be able to reconnect, but the supplier refused to accept payment stating that the debt must be settled by the customer named in the contract.

It took him six months to get the situation resolved during which time he had to cover the mortgage on his property with no rental income at all and having the debt of the last tenant against his property.

I will never allow any tenant of mine to put the gas and electricity in their name for this reason.

We rent our flat through the Madrid Ayuntamiento scheme (where the deposit is lodged with the Ayuntamiento so I as a landlord cannot just spend the deposit money) and they also advised me strongly to leave the utilities in my name.


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well according to this, it has
> 
> Hojas de Reclamaciones
> 
> *Las hojas de reclamaciones deberán estar en todos los locales comerciales y centros de trabajo* (incluidos los transportes públicos) dónde se realicen transacciones comerciales con los clientes. En el caso de la venta a distancia (por catálogo, teléfono, internet…) las empresas dispondrán igualmente de hojas de reclamaciones y se las remitirán a sus consumidores (en un plazo no superior normalmente a 3 días) cuando estos las soliciten.


No doubt that your source is correctly cited, however...

_las empresas dispondrán igualmente de hojas de reclamaciones y se las remitirán a sus consumidores (en un plazo no superior normalmente a 3 días) cuando estos las soliciten_

Yeah right, you can just see them rolling on the floor laughing on the other end of the phone when you read that out to them before they hang up on you and go for a mid afternoon Pacharan....


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Breaking the law or not, we learnt early on not to pay more than one months deposit (is more legal?? - is any of it strictly legal anyway - do they even declare it???) and not to pay the last months rent.

Jo xxx


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Overandout said:


> With regards to utilities, it is seriously NOT a good idea to allow tenants to put the supply contracts in their own name. I'm not sure that I totally agree with this
> 
> I personally know a landlord who did just that. The tenant disappeared (obviously without paying the last months rent) and leaving 2 months utilities unpaid.
> 
> ...



If the utilities are in the name of the tenant then, when they fail to pay, the process is quite simple - we've had to do this a couple of times.


Ask the utility company for a new contract in your name. 
They will then ask for such documents as; boletin, escritura, contract agreement
Once you've supplied all these documents, the debt stays with the tenant and you sign a new contract for the utility - no cutting off and you have power/water etc.

This process is tried and tested and quite common in Spain.

However, it does require that you have a legal contract with your tenant and that you have an up-to-date boletin for the power/water/gas.



If the contract had not been in the name of the tenant, then all of this is not possible and the landlord would get stuck with the bill. But then they would know bills were not getting paid as they would be receiving them and NOT the tenant - bills always go to the contract owner and NOT the owner of the bank account.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - in my case, I paid the landlord a month's deposit; the agent his 'fianza' as it was termed and a month's rent in advance. 1800 euros in total. I then paid to have both electricity and water supplies connected. Unfortunately, the company 'Inspectors', in each case, were unable to authorise either - as they discovered that there were no water pipes or electric cables in place beyond the apartment block's entrance, up to my first floor flat!!!
> 
> My landlord's agent was totally uninterested in this matter, telling me that he'd been assured, by his client, that all was in order, prior to the flat having been advertised for rent. Fortunately, a Spanish friend contacted 'FAQUA' on my behalf.
> 
> ...


Very interesting Guapa. OH and I will definitely be looking at the FAQUA site. It looks like it may be easier to approach them than go through the hojas de reclamación thing. Should tell the guy who was having touble with smth he bought over internet...


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Overandout said:


> No doubt that your source is correctly cited, however...
> 
> _las empresas dispondrán igualmente de hojas de reclamaciones y se las remitirán a sus consumidores (en un plazo no superior normalmente a 3 días) cuando estos las soliciten_
> 
> Yeah right, you can just see them rolling on the floor laughing on the other end of the phone when you read that out to them before they hang up on you and go for a mid afternoon Pacharan....


I don't doubt that you're right. All I was saying is that supposedly there is a process in place as I said in my original post about this where I wished the OP good luck with asking for the hojas!


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - in my case, I paid the landlord a month's deposit; the agent his 'fianza' as it was termed and a month's rent in advance. 1800 euros in total. I then paid to have both electricity and water supplies connected. Unfortunately, the company 'Inspectors', in each case, were unable to authorise either - as they discovered that there were no water pipes or electric cables in place beyond the apartment block's entrance, up to my first floor flat!!!
> 
> My landlord's agent was totally uninterested in this matter, telling me that he'd been assured, by his client, that all was in order, prior to the flat having been advertised for rent. Fortunately, a Spanish friend contacted 'FAQUA' on my behalf.
> 
> ...


OOPS! It is actually FACUA as in the link, not FAQUA


----------



## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Overandout said:


> With regards to utilities, it is seriously NOT a good idea to allow tenants to put the supply contracts in their own name.
> 
> I will never allow any tenant of mine to put the gas and electricity in their name for this reason.


Well plenty of people wouldn't rent if they couldn't put the utilities in their own name. I wouldn't dream of it for one and honestly don't believe it should be legal to have it any other way.

As it's pointed out it's not the landlords problem or debt so it shouldn't matter in the end if everything was done correctly in the first place.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Overandout said:


> Y*our case is quite different to the others who simply don't pay the last months rent*. What you have done is the correct way to do things and just goes to show that even in Spain, there is no need to unilaterally break contractual agreements in the "fear of being ripped off" (which is effectively applying a contractual remedy to a default which has not yet happened, and totally against the law of contracts as stipualated in the Código Civil).
> 
> With regards to utilities, it is seriously NOT a good idea to allow tenants to put the supply contracts in their own name.
> 
> ...


I take exception to the highlighted part.  We are not rip-off merchants, just sensible people who pay our way and are not prepared to be robbed by landlords.

There are problems inherent in both ways of dealing with utility bills. I know which way I want this arranged, both as landlord and tenant.

You know, most tenants are decent, fair-minded people who wouldn't dream of dodging their debts.
But when it comes to landlords returning deposits, they more often than not hold on to them for no reason other than that they simply don't have the money...they spent it.
When I come to move on in five years time I'll get excellent references from my landlord. He won't get his fianza, the house will be returned in a better state than when we first rented it and both parties will be happy.


----------



## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Our deposit from Belgium is still locked up in a bank account designed for deposits. By law nobody can touch that money until both parties sign off on what needs to be paid and before any tenant moves in there is an "independent" inspection that is again carried out after you move out.
Most people are resigned to losing their deposits in Belgium simply because they are scared of further action when the landlord pulls something like 10 grand worth of repairs out of his arse.
It's common practice so you agree to give them the deposit, thing is you have these contracts in place which should protect you and most expats can't speak or read the contract and don't know their rights.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pazcat said:


> Our deposit from Belgium is still locked up in a bank account designed for deposits. By law nobody can touch that money until both parties sign off on what needs to be paid and before any tenant moves in there is an "independent" inspection that is again carried out after you move out.
> Most people are resigned to losing their deposits in Belgium simply because they are scared of further action when the landlord pulls something like 10 grand worth of repairs out of his arse.
> It's common practice so you agree to give them the deposit, thing is you have these contracts in place which should protect you and most expats can't speak or read the contract and don't know their rights.


I would be perfectly happy to hand over a deposit to an independent third party and have the premises inspected on vacation thereof.

But I think you're right, most tenants may not have sufficient knowledge of spoken or written Spanish and don't know their rights.


----------



## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I would be perfectly happy to hand over a deposit to an independent third party and have the premises inspected on vacation thereof.
> 
> But I think you're right, most tenants may not have sufficient knowledge of spoken or written Spanish and don't know their rights.


I think most people would too from both parties. It is after all a sensible approach.
Strangely it doesn't seem to protect deposits as much as it sounds like it should but I suspect the term "independent" is the crucial factor here.


----------



## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Very interesting Guapa. OH and I will definitely be looking at the FAQUA site. It looks like it may be easier to approach them than go through the hojas de reclamación thing. Should tell the guy who was having touble with smth he bought over internet...


Hi - good idea! Your post has alerted me to my having given an incorrect spelling for the name of the org. concerned - so, apologies to you and also to everyone else! 
As you'll be aware, if you've seen my previously posted link, it's actually FACUA…! 

I do appreciate that you were all being incredibly polite in not pointing out my error, LOL! 

BTW, I gave the link to the English language version of FACUA's website because that's then available to all members and guests who use or visit this forum.
Of course, the Spanish language FACUA site would be preferable to those here who would wish to view pages in the native language of the org. itself, which was created in Seville (Sevilla)! So:

FACUA-Consumidores en Acción

Saludos,
GC


----------



## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

Pazcat said:


> Well plenty of people wouldn't rent if they couldn't put the utilities in their own name. I wouldn't dream of it for one and honestly don't believe it should be legal to have it any other way.
> 
> As it's pointed out it's not the landlords problem or debt so it shouldn't matter in the end if everything was done correctly in the first place.


Hi - I agree, completely! I had the experience, whilst a tenant in my first rented property in Asturias (and still wet behind the ears..), of having had to accept my then landlady's policy of keeping Utilities contracts in her name.

I discovered, eventually, after being advised by my Spanish neighbours, that her system of turning up, unannounced, every two months, to demand cash sums for my water and electricity consumption - without showing me either of the bills concerned - was actually illegal! 

I'd assumed that this was simply the Spanish norm, which, although seemingly unfair and open to abuse, was something that I, a newly arrived foreigner, had no right to challenge.

It was very awkward, having to insist on future bills being in my name, but once I achieved this, I found that I'd been overcharged by my landlady, by at least 30 euros, on every previous occasion! I had to threaten to give up my tenancy and to denounce her, before she would agree to deduct the amount concerned from my future rental payments. 

With respect to all you decent, law abiding landlords of Spanish property, who post on this forum, never again would I sign a tenancy agreement which did not permit me to hold the contracts for Utilities in my own name - once bitten, ALWAYS shy…!

Saludos,
GC


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - I agree, completely! I had the experience, whilst a tenant in my first rented property in Asturias (and still wet behind the ears..), of having had to accept my then landlady's policy of keeping Utilities contracts in her name.
> 
> I discovered, eventually, after being advised by my Spanish neighbours, that her system of turning up, unannounced, every two months, to demand cash sums for my water and electricity consumption - without showing me either of the bills concerned - was actually illegal!
> 
> ...


Good for you! and it isn't always Spanish landlords/ladies who are guilty, Brits will also cheat you at the drop of a hat and, of course, you are even more likely to get caught by them because they are Brits after all, and you'd trust them before you'd trust a Spaniard, wouldn't you? NOT


----------

