# Definition/Common Understanding of "Being Muslim"



## Mix (Jul 18, 2010)

Hi, I may be transferring to my employer's Dubai office in a few months. One thing I would like to understand beforehand is how "being Muslim" is defined (technically/legally), and how people commonly understand it in the UAE.

I regard myself as non-Muslim but I have a Muslim-sounding name and dark complexion (mixed-race background). Although I have only ever held/been eligible for British citizenship, I was born in an Islamic country and this is shown in my passport. My country of birth is not the country of either of my parents (they were British expats at the time). My father was born in an Islamic country but is not a follower; my mother was born in a Christian country but is not a follower.

If something went terribly wrong, which courts system would I have to deal with?

Regardless of technical definitions, on a day-to-day basis I expect people will assume I am Muslim and hold me to those standards. However, how would it be seen if I disclosed that I am not Muslim?

N.B. I was not brought up in an Islamic tradition and do not hold those beliefs, so I don't think I could (or should) "pretend" for long without committing some faux-pas.

Thanks for any advice.


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## Jynxgirl (Nov 27, 2009)

I dont think you have the option of choosing to not be muslim, so would suggest saying that you were brought up a christian and just have them put that on paper. Think you can get in trouble if you were to say you were raised muslim but do not choose to be muslim.


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## woodlands (Jan 13, 2010)

If you mentioned your last name it would be easier. The way it affects you is your inability to get an alcohol license to consumer stuff at home, harder consequences if found kissing/shagging out of wedlock, if you pop dead your wife gets literally nothing, etc etc.



Mix said:


> Hi, I may be transferring to my employer's Dubai office in a few months. One thing I would like to understand beforehand is how "being Muslim" is defined (technically/legally), and how people commonly understand it in the UAE.
> 
> I regard myself as non-Muslim but I have a Muslim-sounding name and dark complexion (mixed-race background). Although I have only ever held/been eligible for British citizenship, I was born in an Islamic country and this is shown in my passport. My country of birth is not the country of either of my parents (they were British expats at the time). My father was born in an Islamic country but is not a follower; my mother was born in a Christian country but is not a follower.
> 
> ...


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## Mix (Jul 18, 2010)

Thanks for the quick reply.



Jynxgirl said:


> I dont think you have the option of choosing to not be muslim


Is this because religion is assumed to descend by blood through the paternal line? So it would be irrelevant if my father was not Muslim at time of my birth, if his father or paternal grand-father, etc. had been?



Jynxgirl said:


> suggest saying that you were brought up a christian and just have them put that on paper.


That would be a reasonable option as my cultural influences have been more in the Christian tradition than that of any other religion. Is anyone ever required to "prove" their religion for these forms and papers?


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## Sean2008 (Sep 9, 2008)

You're just thinking from a 'legal' point of view. But don't forget that some of your muslim co-workers might harass you, especially when they see that you don't fast and pray like they do. Many people are closed-minded here, and they might accuse you of being an apostate...


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## Gavtek (Aug 23, 2009)

From a legal point of view, as long as you weren't Muslim then stopped being Muslim, you should be ok. I think. Definite can of worms though!


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## Mix (Jul 18, 2010)

woodlands said:


> The way it affects you is your inability to get an alcohol license to consumer stuff at home


On a day-to-day basis that is one of the things I was thinking about. That and being able to make a nice BLT sandwich


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## Mix (Jul 18, 2010)

Sean2008 said:


> You're just thinking from a 'legal' point of view. But don't forget that some of your muslim co-workers might harass you, especially when they see that you don't fast and pray like they do. Many people are closed-minded here, and they might accuse you of being an apostate...


Yes, that's what I was trying to get at with the contrast of "technical/legal" and "common understanding" of how people are put into Muslim/non-Muslim buckets.

Although I don't think it would be much of an issue with co-workers (the office is made up of American/European expats), undoubtedly there will be some misunderstandings in transactions with shopkeepers, officials, etc. - just because people make certain assumptions and don't like to be wrong.

In these situations, I'm accustomed to reactions of curious questioning and strangers proselytising at me. However, how likely do you think I am to get arrested, aggressively harassed, or made a social pariah based on the apparent mis-match of name and knowledge of Islamic customs?


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## Sean2008 (Sep 9, 2008)

Have you ever been to Dubai or any other country in the Gulf?


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## Mix (Jul 18, 2010)

Gavtek said:


> From a legal point of view, as long as you weren't Muslim then stopped being Muslim, you should be ok. I think. Definite can of worms though!


It sounds like I should continue subscribing to the "don't ask, don't tell" policy as far as possible


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)

There is no Islam police routinely questioning people on a regular basis. Shopkeepers, civil servants etc won't ask about your religion, ever. If you are worried about more 'western' behaviour, the pubs here are full of men in traditional dress having a pint. The clubs full of arabic males, in unbuttoned bad shirts, sharking on girls.


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## Mix (Jul 18, 2010)

Sean2008 said:


> Have you ever been to Dubai or any other country in the Gulf?


Only for work, completely in compounds or hotels and surrounded by colleagues/client teams (where the usual "multinational business" culture pervades).


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## Jynxgirl (Nov 27, 2009)

I swear on some piece of paper, I had to identify what religion I was... for a visa or ?? something... 

No??


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## woodlands (Jan 13, 2010)

Mix said:


> On a day-to-day basis that is one of the things I was thinking about. That and being able to make a nice BLT sandwich


You have to quote your religion on many state documentation. In Dubai its not much of an issue unless u get involved in let's say a traffic incident or something else wherein your religion will matter. Plus if you visit Saudi Arabia it opens a can full of worms because on the visa you need to declare your religion. I have had US muslim friends being taken around by the religious police because they were not praying at the right time of the day..and this is downtown Riyadh. imagine they figure out you are a muslim denouncing islam...this is pretty screwed up.

You can get by if your father's and mother's last names are not islamic. Else don't try it.


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## Mix (Jul 18, 2010)

Thanks for the comments. Interestingly, I've not had any problems with visiting Saudi Arabia - the London embassy seems able to validate a wide range of religious and areligious responses (I travel with an atheist colleague), and they are fine with a non-Muslim designation on my visa forms.

This situation isn't about denouncing Islam, although your confusion between race and religion is pretty much what I would expect in the general population. In this situation, the theological risk would actually stem from making false claim to Islam - either by failing to follow Islamic rules having claimed it, or by going back to origins (Christianity in my family's case) - which then creates an actual apostasy case. It goes back to Gavtek's point about starting and stopping being a follower.

The issue therefore remains working out the extent to which having a name originating in a predominantly-Muslim region means you should actively prove your individual religion - either for legal or social purposes. 

It sounds like there isn't a standard or well-documented route, but rather one should be prepared for confusion and allow even more time for inquisition and processing of papers


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## DubaiCharmer (Jul 8, 2010)

Mix said:


> It sounds like I should continue subscribing to the "don't ask, don't tell" policy as far as possible


Hey mate ,,


from a muslim pt of view i would tell u this ,

u get to choose what u relegion u decide and no one would harrass you in any way , as my collegues told u , u wont be facing any legal or cultural issues AS LONG as u werent a muslim before and changed .

its not that close minded , u get to choose what u want , we have many churches also if u want to continue ur sunday rituals too , -with no harrassment either- , so i guess everythin would be fine.

just chill, dnt give the issue more attention ccuz its basically nuthin :ranger:


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## pamela0810 (Apr 5, 2010)

I genuinely do not understand the question. You need to first clarify what religion you belong to, either Muslim, Christian or are you plain agnostic? If you have a muslim last name, then in all instances, you will be legally identified as Muslim and claiming to not be a muslim might be considered an insult.
The question of religion does come up whilst deal whilst dealing with certain legalities. This is after all a Muslim country governed by Shariah Law. So it's best to clearly identify which religion you belong to and then stick with it.


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

As far as I can recall you have to declare a religion on your visa application. I was told that atheist was not an option.

-


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## pamela0810 (Apr 5, 2010)

Elphaba said:


> As far as I can recall you have to declare a religion on your visa application. I was told that atheist was not an option.
> 
> -


I agree. From a legal standpoint, you need to clearly identify which religion you belong to.


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## Jynxgirl (Nov 27, 2009)

Curious. So if someone had muslims parents, who left to another country where you have the freedom to choose your own religion and decide to raise their kids as christians, those children can not possible get in trouble with an arabic name that can be islamic in this counry if they say they are christians??? That would seem an insult to the person.


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## Andy Capp (Oct 5, 2008)

Jynxgirl said:


> Curious. So if someone had muslims parents, who left to another country where you have the freedom to choose your own religion and decide to raise their kids as christians, those children can not possible get in trouble with an arabic name that can be islamic in this counry if they say they are christians??? That would seem an insult to the person.


Welcome to UAE (And so many other islamic states where the self righteous (those without sin cast the first stone) reign supreme...


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## w_man (Apr 16, 2010)

pamela0810 said:


> I genuinely do not understand the question. You need to first clarify what religion you belong to, either Muslim, Christian or are you plain agnostic? If you have a muslim last name, then in all instances, you will be legally identified as Muslim and claiming to not be a muslim might be considered an insult.
> The question of religion does come up whilst deal whilst dealing with certain legalities. This is after all a Muslim country governed by Shariah Law. So it's best to clearly identify which religion you belong to and then stick with it.


And I believe that's the question - simply by having a Muslim last name defines your religion? I mean most passports don't associate you to a religion and when asked, you could say Christian or 'other' if there is such an option. If someone IS Christian but has a Muslim last name, would he/she be prone to some harassment? Would they 'investigate' by contacting his family in other countries and try to locate the family tree? OR would it simply be a 'raise eye brow' but still give liquor license?


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## Jynxgirl (Nov 27, 2009)

Tis a sad sad part of religion that one can not make their own decisions in life.


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## shinny_girl (Apr 4, 2008)

Jynxgirl said:


> Tis a sad sad part of religion that one can not make their own decisions in life.



I guess only in few religions you cant officially convert. I still believe you can always change your religion and just being born to a religion or papers dont make you a follower of that specific religion. Its all about what you believe.

And The sadest part is that people judge you by a religion that you were born to(which wasnt your choice) and not by the one you have chosen later.

Hmmm.....my first very serious comment in the Site....time to cool down for me


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## Andy Capp (Oct 5, 2008)

shinny_girl said:


> I guess only in few religions you cant officially convert. I still believe you can always change your religion and just being born to a religion or papers dont make you a follower of that specific religion. Its all about what you believe.
> 
> And The sadest part is that people judge you by a religion that you were born to(which wasnt your choice) and not by the one you have chosen later.
> 
> Hmmm.....my first very serious comment in the Site....time to cool down for me


Did you not know? EVERYONE is born a muslim?

So the koran tells us, now if that isn't religious brainwashing I don't know what is!


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## pamela0810 (Apr 5, 2010)

w_man said:


> And I believe that's the question - simply by having a Muslim last name defines your religion? I mean most passports don't associate you to a religion and when asked, you could say Christian or 'other' if there is such an option. If someone IS Christian but has a Muslim last name, would he/she be prone to some harassment? Would they 'investigate' by contacting his family in other countries and try to locate the family tree? OR would it simply be a 'raise eye brow' but still give liquor license?


As previously mentioned, this is a muslim country governed by the Sharia Law. The basis of all legal systems in this country is the Sharia law. From experience, I have been asked to identify my religion while dealing with a few legal procedures, so the question about religion will eventually come up.
So, for the purpose of sticking to the topic of this thread and not digressing into religion too much, my response to the OP would be, if something were to go terribly wrong, you will be asked which religion you belong to, irrespective of your opinion either way. Once you tell them your name and then say that you do not practice the religion, the concerned authorities will definitely raise an eyebrow, to say the very least.
On a day to day basis, individual opinions will vary ranging from the more modern thinking people who really don't care to the more traditional ones who will delve deeper into why you choose not to follow your religion when your name so clearly states which religion you belong to.
As for liquor license, it is highly doubtful that you would get a license with an Islamic name.


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## w_man (Apr 16, 2010)

Yikes - well that sucks!! I could understand if there was a way for them to confirm your religion but if it's simply based on your name!?!? 

With the way society works these days, I know a few people who are NOT muslim but like arabic or persian names. Or someone in OPs scenario who got it from his father but has never practiced the religion.

Anyways - it is what it is I suppose. Interesting.


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

w_man said:


> Yikes - well that sucks!! I could understand if there was a way for them to confirm your religion but if it's simply based on your name!?!?
> 
> With the way society works these days, I know a few people who are NOT muslim but like arabic or persian names. Or someone in OPs scenario who got it from his father but has never practiced the religion.
> 
> Anyways - it is what it is I suppose. Interesting.


Your religion is NOT determind by your name in the UAE. You have to declare a religion on your visa application and you select whichever is appropriate. Some of the comments in this thread are misleading.
-


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## pamela0810 (Apr 5, 2010)

Elphaba said:


> Your religion is NOT determind by your name in the UAE. You have to declare a religion on your visa application and you select whichever is appropriate. Some of the comments in this thread are misleading.
> -


Just clarifying Elphaba. If he has a muslim name and then identifies himself as a Christian on the visa application, would that not raise eyebrows? Also, would they go back and check his visa application for verification when he applies for a liquor license for example?


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## Elphaba (Jan 24, 2008)

pamela0810 said:


> Just clarifying Elphaba. If he has a muslim name and then identifies himself as a Christian on the visa application, would that not raise eyebrows? Also, would they go back and check his visa application for verification when he applies for a liquor license for example?


Someone might ask a question, but that should be all. Many names are used in more than one religion so it isn't as black and white as some many think, especially if translated from a non-Latin alphabet. 

I guess if someone's name was, say, Mohammad Hussein then they might query an alcohol licence application, but it shouldn't be an issue once proof is provided. 
-


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## w_man (Apr 16, 2010)

Elphaba said:


> Someone might ask a question, but that should be all. Many names are used in more than one religion so it isn't as black and white as some many think, especially if translated from a non-Latin alphabet.
> 
> I guess if someone's name was, say, Mohammad Hussein then they might query an alcohol licence application, but it shouldn't be an issue once proof is provided.
> -


That makes sense - 'question' or 'ask for clarification' is fine. Declaring someone's religion for them based on their name sounds crazy.


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