# And the killings just goes on and on...



## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

I just received this email while reading on this forum: ".....I am using a new printer in Cape Town as well, as the last one was shot and killed. So you must just bear with me and we will have them (the printing work) finished as soon as we can. Regards, ....."

What the hell is wrong with this country?


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## Unseer (Jul 8, 2008)

Moved to San Antonio in Texas this past weekend. Opened the local website called mysa.com and saw a decapitation, guy got shot by the police, guy walked into a restaurant with a gun. Been warned by the locals not to get lost in the south of San Antonio as people tend to vanish. Difference is they have the death penalty here and it's amazing how much of a deterent it is. Oh, and you can buy a gun in Walmart while picking up bread and milk, I love the attitude out here.

What I'm getting at is it's certainly bad back home but it's not paradise everywhere else, not even by comparison. Ever looked at the murder/assualt stats for Los Angeles? Now that's a scary place.



vegasboy said:


> I just received this email while reading on this forum: ".....I am using a new printer in Cape Town as well, as the last one was shot and killed. So you must just bear with me and we will have them (the printing work) finished as soon as we can. Regards, ....."
> 
> What the hell is wrong with this country?


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

Unseer said:


> Moved to San Antonio in Texas this past weekend. Opened the local website called mysa.com and saw a decapitation, guy got shot by the police, guy walked into a restaurant with a gun. Been warned by the locals not to get lost in the south of San Antonio as people tend to vanish. Difference is they have the death penalty here and it's amazing how much of a deterent it is. Oh, and you can buy a gun in Walmart while picking up bread and milk, I love the attitude out here.
> 
> What I'm getting at is it's certainly bad back home but it's not paradise everywhere else, not even by comparison. Ever looked at the murder/assualt stats for Los Angeles? Now that's a scary place.


 Agreed, you will find crime all over the world, BUT you have many safe areas all over the world too. You are missing the point: South Africa is the murder capital of the world, and there is no safe area to live, full stop. Here they rape your wife and daughter and leave with a cell phone. The list goes on. Just read the rest of the forum.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Unseer said:


> Moved to San Antonio in Texas this past weekend. Opened the local website called mysa.com and saw a decapitation, guy got shot by the police, guy walked into a restaurant with a gun. Been warned by the locals not to get lost in the south of San Antonio as people tend to vanish. Difference is they have the death penalty here and it's amazing how much of a deterent it is. Oh, and you can buy a gun in Walmart while picking up bread and milk, I love the attitude out here.
> 
> What I'm getting at is it's certainly bad back home but it's not paradise everywhere else, not even by comparison. Ever looked at the murder/assualt stats for Los Angeles? Now that's a scary place.


Difference is that in most other scary places you KNOW where to avoid.
and in SA too you dont go wandering around places that are likely to get you hurt

the difference in SA tho, is that your home or driveway is not usually supposed to be one of those places you are supposed to avoid.

And THATS the difference when you say crime is everywhere.

The other difference between the returnees and those who left,
only one is working from recent reality ,the other is based on Holidays and a dream of what used to be.
Knysna IS comparitively safer, but is it totally safe? 
whats the price tag?


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## zambezi.king (Oct 8, 2009)

Come now boys... you are letting the facts spoil a good discusion. 

Fact: The place is dangerous.
Fact: Large percentage of urban and suburban areas.
Fact: Only the productivity of the criminal element has increased since you know when.
Fact: Things will not get better soon.

Other than that, if this is for you and your family then welcome, lets do a permanent house swap arangement. You can have the house with guest cottage, the 2 cars, the pool, the sat-plasma tv-home threatre system and all the camping gear you will ever need as well as all the rest of it. Just give me your crappy weather and right of abode elsewhere and we will call it even.

To the OP sorry to hear of the death of your printer... I blame apartheid... everyone else does... for everything.


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## Unseer (Jul 8, 2008)

Just turned on the TV, some guy got blown away in San Antonio while walking down the street with a woman early this morning.

Vegasboy don't be silly, SA isn't the murder capital of the world. There are many other places that have far higher murder rates. That's like saying Ford make the worst cars in the world because you owned one that was a dud.

Daxk, Knysna is comparatively safe when compared to any town or city in the world, not just in South Africa. So the "price" question becomes moot wouldn't you agree?

Zambezi.king, your facts have no relevance since you've just captured the entire planet in them and to make a comprison you actually have to do that. The only one that's blatantly wrong is that the criminal element is the only thing that's grown in SA because it's obvious by looking at all other production stats that everything is growing. And the last one is, well, it's as useful as my completely different outlook which is my opinion. I say it's going to keep on getting better. I feel comfortable when I say that since I spent a week in SA a month back and met with a number of the large international business including Microsoft, Deloitte and they're loving it and groing. Sure they say there's a skill shortage but it doesn't seem to be slowing them down.

Daxk, I know you're still connected to business out there - are you seeing a comparitive difference in business growth when using other 1st world countries as a meter?


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## mman (Nov 15, 2009)

vegasboy said:


> Agreed, you will find crime all over the world, BUT you have many safe areas all over the world too. You are missing the point: South Africa is the murder capital of the world, and there is no safe area to live, full stop. Here they rape your wife and daughter and leave with a cell phone. The list goes on. Just read the rest of the forum.


This is very wrong and over exaggerated. Yes South Africa has crime. The statement that South Africa is the murder capital of the world is a statement that cannot be backed up with proper fact/stats. And i dont care about some wiki link as there is no way that these can be 100% accurate. And to state that there is no safe area to live is absolute garbage, if this was true then every single living person in South Africa would have experienced some sort of crime.


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

You are in denial as are many South Africans. Check out nationmaster.com The facts have been stated and explained in many other posts. We are no1 with murder with a fire arm, no1 with rape, and the list goes on.

If you think you are safe in ANY part of South Africa, you have become a part of the psychologically battered individuals who have been brainwashed to believe that you are safe here, and I bet your definition of "safe" is "safe for white people". You are obviously excluding crime, rape, wife beating, tik, poverty etc. that goes on in small "safe for whites" areas, but where people of colour are experiencing crime on a daily basis in their communities, inflicted on them by their own people in small villages, on farms and most far off areas you would define as safe. 

I have been in the mental health field here for the last 18 years working with the poorest of the poor, and my observations are based on personal experience and facts. Where there is poverty, there is crime, it is as simple as that. The masses are getting poorer by the day, its common sense what the outcome is going to be, while you and your buddies at Microsoft, Deloitte and other "international companies" deliberate on comparative differences.... wow!

My friend in Kleinmond believed it was a safe small town to move to. He got shot at point blank, 4 times!.. and in front of his 5 year old daughter in their house. I don't have to give any more examples, just read the threads of people who personally endured crime. 

Its time to wake up... you are in serious denial, but hey, we all have our constitutional right to our own view. O my, the politicians tonight released a statement on SA television that the constitution is not speaking to the needs of 90% of the population. They feel it needs to be changed. Watch this space...


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## mman (Nov 15, 2009)

Vegasboy i clearly stated that South Africa has crime. So im not in denial, im just not a doomsday prophet like you. 

You also keep referring to South Africa as "here" which would make me believe that you have not yet left the country. Please move to another country first before you start making comparisons.


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## Unseer (Jul 8, 2008)

No mate, you're the one in denial. Look at nationmaster again, look at stats from all over the world and you'll find the truth is very different from your blinkered perspective on the world.

You say "safe here" and quote a load of bad things that are prolific everywhere, in particular in the US. You can make any stat dance a jig if you only focus on the parts that support your argument. I have friends in the US who have horror stories about relatives and friends who've been shot, murdered etc. You've spent 18 years working in one place and think that's gives you all the experience to make a diffinitive statement about the rest of the world? I lived in South Africa for 28 years before going on a planet wide adventure and I say it's a great country with a great economy and great potential. I've spent the last 10 years living in a variety of places around the world, even spent time in Rwanda and I just don't see all the doom and gloom. I'm absolutely aware of the reality of this planet we call home, so are all the businesses that decide when to take risks and when not to. I work for a large corporate, we do feasibility studies on a variety of countries and South Africa is one of two GMT countries that make the cut for investment and this is a US corporate making the decision, not a South African company.

And the politicians in Arizona just signed a bill that does provides interesting breaches of consitutional rights out here, you think it's only South Africa that does silly things?


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

Unseer said:


> No mate, you're the one in denial. Look at nationmaster again, look at stats from all over the world and you'll find the truth is very different from your blinkered perspective on the world.
> 
> You say "safe here" and quote a load of bad things that are prolific everywhere, in particular in the US. You can make any stat dance a jig if you only focus on the parts that support your argument. I have friends in the US who have horror stories about relatives and friends who've been shot, murdered etc. You've spent 18 years working in one place and think that's gives you all the experience to make a diffinitive statement about the rest of the world? I lived in South Africa for 28 years before going on a planet wide adventure and I say it's a great country with a great economy and great potential. I've spent the last 10 years living in a variety of places around the world, even spent time in Rwanda and I just don't see all the doom and gloom. I'm absolutely aware of the reality of this planet we call home, so are all the businesses that decide when to take risks and when not to. I work for a large corporate, we do feasibility studies on a variety of countries and South Africa is one of two GMT countries that make the cut for investment and this is a US corporate making the decision, not a South African company.
> 
> And the politicians in Arizona just signed a bill that does provides interesting breaches of consitutional rights out here, you think it's only South Africa that does silly things?


 Good luck, South Africa needs people like you


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## zambezi.king (Oct 8, 2009)

My original post was tongue in cheek but very near to the mark.

Unseer, you say you have been out of the country for 10 years... if you are not here how do you know what goes on? Oh yes you research the "facts" as done by whom? Do you think those people / organisations have no agenda / bias / axe to grind? Wake up... prior to the mid 90's the amount of people I personally know (not heard of, or a friend of a friend of a friend) who have been murdered / raped / seriously assaulted / etc has risen sharply... night and day difference. Don't come to me with your international fiesability studies and other garbage and try and equate the worst downtown inner ciity areas in USA with South africa. You are only proving to me that the worst of the USA is what we consider as normal now. The point that you try to make that crime happens all over the world...DUH!! Yes it happens all over the world but it happens 10/50/100/1000 times more per 10 000 people here than anywhere else! 

As for the fact that we might not be the no 1 in murder or rape or violent crime etc... who the hell gives a flying fig... if it is not no1 then it might be no2 or no3... whether it is the new South Africa or always was like this but only black on black violence is irrelevant we are still in the top ten. 

Africa, as a whole, always was and probably always will be the toy of the world. Why do you think the eastern and western world fought for different sides in every african struggle? To prevent communism, or to liberate the masses for the good of the masses? Surely you can't so nieve! It is all about mineral resources, fullstop, period, the end! If you allow (or steer a country) to its knees you can dictate your terms in any negotiation or aide packages. How do you think the likes of Anglo etc can pick up a copper mine for $50 million when it is worth 10 times that? 

I too have lived in Africa and the UK for more than 10 years and I can tell you I never ever felt threatened like in South Africa. My job takes me all over Africa still and with the exception of a few countries that have civil unrest or wars going on I feel safer there than here. And I am statistically safer as well... so go back to your office, advise that South Africa is open for business (we need it) and that everyting is great here but don't try to tell those of us that are still here that it is all in our heads. 

If you suffer from ostrich syndrome don't try to infect the rest of us!


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Unseer, Fortunately for SA, the NCA limited the pain and SA's public have not been as affected by the Crash as the rest, (Ireland for eg)
Of the Businesses that I am still involved in all have maintained and one is working flat out.
None of my tenants are in arrears so everyone still has jobs and everyone is still paying their doctors and dentists.
That your US Company is looking at SA for investment interests me as everyone else I know of are doing a waitand see before shoving any real FDA in.
The Mining Companies particularly with the new mining order are NOT going to spend much in prospecting.
The pain is going to come, unfortunately, when all the WC Toys as well as the balance of the Arms deal and now Eskom and Water have to be paid for.

and there's only a tax base of 13.2m

Long term, the ruling Govt have NOT been able to fulfil their promises regarding Housing,employment, Services and they wont have the money to do so now.
And Africa shows its dissatisfaction by burning things and destroying things.

So I'll see your 28 years of experience and raise you 54.


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

Dec 2009: "In a recent address to Parliament, South African President Jacob Zuma stated that South Africa has a greater problem with violent crime than any other country in the world. 

Another key issue in considering crime statistics is that when we speak of the “crime problem” in South Africa, most persons are concerned about those crimes that impact directly upon businesses and ordinary citizens – particularly those that leave in their wake a sense of fear and personal vulnerability. Psychologically, it is not so much the statistical number of crimes that are reported that leaves a sense that South Africa is unsafe but more the *nature of those crimes and the extent to which it affects us directly or impacts on those close to us. In other words, it is the sheer intensity of violence that accompanies crime in South Africa that is a key issue in determining the perceptions that residents, visitors and investors have of the country.* If this is what President Zuma had in mind when describing South Africa as the “most violent” of countries, his argument may have some merit.

Another way of considering the potential for violent crime in South Africa is to note that the country ranks 123rd out of 144 countries in terms of being 'least peaceful' , according to the June 2009 Global Peace Index" Pasco Risk Management - Global Risk Management and Consultancy


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## pjkay (Nov 5, 2009)

*Better have your facts right*



Unseer said:


> Just turned on the TV, some guy got blown away in San Antonio while walking down the street with a woman early this morning.
> 
> Vegasboy don't be silly, SA isn't the murder capital of the world. There are many other places that have far higher murder rates. That's like saying Ford make the worst cars in the world because you owned one that was a dud.
> 
> ...


OK the official stats...Murders SA 2nd in the world..Rapes SA top of the list..!5000 policemen injured on duty last year..550 of them maimed for life,,120 killed. So don't know where the rose coloured spectacles come from..I know there are Murders all over the world but per capita we are excellent for the top awards. Be truthful..Lived in Africa for 38 years..I have it in my blood but I am realistic.Pjkay.


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## masu (Feb 14, 2010)

vegasboy said:


> Agreed, you will find crime all over the world, BUT you have many safe areas all over the world too. You are missing the point: South Africa is the murder capital of the world, and there is no safe area to live, full stop. Here they rape your wife and daughter and leave with a cell phone. The list goes on. Just read the rest of the forum.


I have heard on incidences where the son is forced to have sex with the mother or siblings forced to have sex with each other in front of the assailants. So you don't just have to worry about your wife and daughter being raped, imagine being forced to penetrate you daughter. 

Don't think one will ever get over doing that or having that done to you by your own father even though its by force.


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## AngeliqueH (May 21, 2010)

I have only been out of SA for 4 weeks now, in that time I have noticed this huge amount of stress just disappear. In SA you are always vigalent and alert for everything around you no matter where you are. I don't think people the weight that lends to your life. The other thing is yes there is crime here but its crime in a more normal sense. It doesn't have the cruelty that SA Crime has. SA crime is soul destroying, toddlers watching their parents being hacked up, young children being raped, lesbians been gang raped and then after its reported to the police they gang rape her again. 

So yes there is crime, but when I read although I still feel the sympathy for the victims - it doesn't make me gasp in horror and make me sick to my stomache.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

AngeliqueH said:


> I have only been out of SA for 4 weeks now.


Wait 4 years.... You'll be shocked at what you once thought was "normal"


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

Halo said:


> Wait 4 years.... You'll be shocked at what you once thought was "normal"


And that, Halo, is exactly the point. South Africans have become so institutionalised and brainwashed to accept their social environment as unacceptable but tolerable, abnormal but bearable. Their arguments are usually supported by "it happens all over the world" and so on. We have become "tronk-dronk".

When I stay at my Florida home for a few weeks I cannot BELIEVE the difference in terms of my environment. Here I live in a upscale community, yet never feel safe, always bombarded by news of so and so in the area who has been robbed, hijacked, even raped and murdered.

There I live in a middle income area: children riding their bicycles, playing in the streets, women walking, jogging, kids swimming in public swimming pools etc etc. Show me one place in South Africa where you can feel this safe.

I stand in awe how naive people can be. Here in the Western Cape we are swimming in pooh, with only one river that passed the test. Sewage of human waste are pumped into our rivers, with E.coli levels running in the highest levels imaginable...


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

I was so moved by the following post submitted on another thread on expatforum that I decided to copy and paste it here. You be the judge. I LOVE South Africa, but it is dangerous to create the impression that people here are overreacting. Happy reading:

"...Dear Imalin

I do business in Santon and have friends that live there, so I can give you some advice, I travel these areas weekly. 
Sandton is a very nice area but extremely expensive, most probably the most expensive area in the whole of Johannesburg/Pretoria. It is a very high class rich area, similar in USA as let’s say Manhattan, you will get in Centurion and Pretoria the same for30% less easy, Do not underestimate Pretoria, there is private estates that is 10 times much nicer to live than Sandton. Reason is that Pretoria gives you everything a city does but with a much more relaxed atmosphere, schools are tops, shops and standard of living. If I know what you are looking at spending on accommodation I can give more advice.
If you are going to work in Pretoria I would live in Pretoria, the travelling between the two cities in business hours is mad, it will take you anything from1.5*2.5 hours one way. Traffic in Pretoria is not nearly as bad, where in Pretoria will you be working, Pretoria is a big city, but easy to get about.
Imalin please be worried about safety, rule number one, I have been in the states a couple of times and one cannot compare the crime to South Africa, The way crime is applied in South Africa is quite different. You have crime in the posh and normal suburb that you don’t find in your normal suburbs, in USA. I am not a doom profit, but live realistic.
I live in a normal to upper suburb which is quite popular and rated a nice area to live, not security village. I have 6-8 feet metal-fence and wall, my security gate of 6 meter was broken from its electric motor with a metal bar and pull open with a LDV, my from door was kicked out of its frame out of the wall. Bricks and all. In the last 5 years I have been armed robbed twice, three motor cars stolen, burglaries a couple of times, neighbour robed one , cars 1, burglary 5 times, my other neighbour 3 houses down has been armed rob 3 times and burgled 12 times, and this area is very nice to live in.
In my family and friends group I will give a quick stat to crime.
My mother was shot dead in her house 8/05/2000 at 2 pm on a Monday, since 1994, I was armed robbed 3 times, burglary 11 times, cars stolen 5, business broken in 3 times. mother in-law cars stolen 2, robbed twice, brother armed hijacked & car stolen 1, sister in-law, armed hijacked & car stolen 2, her son had to take his clothes of in front of her and say good bye, he was put in execution style, gun was pulled and by grace of GOD did not go off, they have been robbed 5 times, my sister attempted high jacking and shot at 1, burglary 3 times. My friends own 4 Spar, food outlet, armed robbed with AK47 9 times, 3 workers and a friend shot and killed to date, 5 times burgled and 2 armed robberies, I have lost 3 friend that has been murdered, my best friend a farmer his wife, and mother was gang raped by 3 of their workers and 4 of their mates, his mother was stabbed 21 times and left to die, his wife was taken to a shabin (drinking area), for more to have their fun, and left her the next morning naked in a dirt road, they were jailed for only 2.5 year and got pardoned by Mbeki because the jails was full, I can carry on....
So yes please be aware where you live and choose good. My advice is first to come and have a look at where you work and what area it is in, you will love Pretoria it is a very friendly city. 

All that said this is still a wonderful country, but my hopes and moral is so low, as so many South Africans, I am doing my best to move to the USA, but hell it is not easy with you immigration.
You are welcome to phone me any time in SA I can show you around I have a couple of foreign friends from overseas that work in SA it would be my pleasure
I can send you my private email address to correspond..."


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