# Deciding on NZ or USA



## vagrant

I'm a NZer who moved away from NZ in 2001 and currently facing the recurring question of _should I move home or somewhere else?_ 

Now we're a family of 4 (kids 8 and 10) so the decision gets more difficult each time. We're done with moving and want a place that can be a permanent home. The last 5 years have been in Seoul - there's a lot here that I love but it will never be home.

I visited NZ with family back in February and it was a fantastic vacation. That has got me thinking about the practical side of returning as I know it is going to be very different to a holiday. Until that trip I was planning on relocating to be nearer to my employer (based in SF Bay area).

So we are considering the possibility of relating to NZ or USA. If we choose NZ then I'll be absent a lot - and NZ is about as far away from the rest of the world as you can get (and Auckland Airport looks just like as when I left). 

I have read some of the very helpful posts from people considering that USA-NZ move but I'm curious if anyone has ever looked at the decision from this unusual perspective.


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## jawnbc

I've not lived in the US since 1989 and I'm childfree. I do visit my family there every year and also travel there for work 1-2 times a year. I've lived in the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, 3 or more years in each. 

The US has the potential, career-wise, that few places have--in a lot of fields. So if career ambitions are a huge matter, the US wins over NZ a lot of the time. I came to Auckland 3 years ago knowing that my options for a subsequent career move in Auckland are limited. 

The US also has, in many respects, lower day-to-day costs of living. For the Bay area there are two exceptions: housing and health insurance. If you have any family members with significant health issues, the latter might be a deal breaker for you. Insurers cannot exclude you anymore, but you can still pay quite a lot for insurance. Mind you, if you arrange good insurance in the US you will almost certainly have better access to care than under the NZ public system. Which you're paying for. 

Finally, for your kids tertiary education, the US is unparalleled in terms of breadth and depth of opportunities. The best of these come at a very high cost; many of the decent public universities are still more expensive that Auckland Uni or Otago Uni. But access to tertiary education and training in the US is better. 

For work/life balance, kids' primary and secondary schooling, security, on all these I would put NZ--assuming you'd be in Auckland or perhaps Wellington--ahead. 

But don't discount Canada...


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## Puppy Love

I currently live in the SF Bay Area....where is your employer exactly, and do they guarantee you a work permit? Something to think about is that you will need two cars most likely (unless you are in SF itself). The housing crisis is horrific, and most people are having difficulty with an affordable living. Even an hour from SF in any direction is still very expensive, as are many other living details (9% sales tax, 20% tips, 30-40% income tax...welcome to America!). 
I only mention these things because it's not a cake walk. Many people are leaving the Bay Area for other states, many people are hanging in by a thread, some of us want to emigrate).

Nonetheless, it's very beautiful here with mild weather, tons and tons of cultural events and nature. You know, it all depends on your values and expectations.


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## vagrant

Thanks for the insights - both shining some light on exactly the things that I'm thinking about.

jawnbc - yes a move to the US would be primarily about work opportunity. I left NZ for that reason and it's still on my mind. Although I could potentially keep my current job and work remotely from NZ I have doubts about how well that would work in practice given the travel requirement.
If it didn't work out then I'd be left with limited opportunities as you mention. All of my current contacts are in the US and Asia and I'm very nervous about having to look for work in NZ as an outsider.

I hadn't thought too much about insurance but that's a good point. Touch wood - we don't have any issues currently.

For work/life balance both the US and NZ are looking like a great step up from Korea - particularly for education.

I've been told by the company that a visa should not be a problem. It would be an L-1A intra-company transfer; I am not familiar with that but apparently possible.

My employer is based in SF but I would not need to be located there. Not even necessarily on the west coast - but somewhere not too far from an airport. The Bay Area housing is a worry - along with the taxes and more taxes - but the climate and access to events is indeed a big draw.

Auckland is also not inexpensive either, but perhaps I'm being a little too hard on it given my past experience. It's a great place to escape from at the weekend as long as everyone else doesn't have the same plan.

I appreciate your comments and now have a little more to think over. Worst kind of decision as my heart is set on NZ but my brain is telling me to follow the work.


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## Puppy Love

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/apa

You've got your job/profession squared away...that's a big piece of the puzzle!
And if you've never lived here I think you'd regret it if you didn't give it a shot. Certainly, those of us who live in the Bay Area make it work and people are becoming much more frugal. 
There are ways to live affordably here, which means sadly saying No to all those awesome activities that have high price tags (concerts, theater)...much Free stuff to do!! And it's still possible to find a $3 burrito as opposed to a $12 fancy burrito  Beer in a bar or restaurant can also only cost $4 (I had a delicious microbrew just the other day at a lovely brewery on their lovely patio ), but one can also pay $15 for a glass of wine and $12 for chips (crazy, eh!?)
Kids can participate in Free activities, too, but I believe there is pressure to join teams/clubs with uniforms and many many hours per week watching games and practices. 

So, for a family of 4 to not be stressed about $$, they have to prioritize and NOT get swept up in the American spending and materialism. One can find inexpensive "stuff" easily.
I'm a big fan of just being outdoors hiking and enjoying the coastal hikes....one big playground!

Yes, follow your heart!!


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## Foxilady

I'm a SF Bay native. My husband is a Kiwi. After we married came the tough decision of - which country to live in! We chose America. Mainly because I had a 10 year old child and moving her to NZ would be costly. 

We lived in CA for the first 6 years of our marriage. I would not recommend living in SF Bay unless you have a high income. 
My husband was earning $165k and wasn't able to purchase a home (in a nice area) Remember, CA has income tax, higher insurance premiums, horrendous traffic, schools are overcrowded and poorly funded (unless you live in an expensive area - therefore paying high property taxes) 

I have a strong dislike for our government. I find it ironic that we tote ourselves as being "Land of the Free" when we are anything but... We are a corrupt nation. Blatant disregard for our constitution and federal law is a daily occurrence. Our FDA and CDC have anything but our best interest at heart. 
There is so much hate & discrimination. 
Doctors can refuse service for any reason. Most are glorified pharmacist - they are trained to write prescriptions. 
Medications and medical care are over priced and many can't afford them. For instance, my son had difficulty breathing and the stand alone ER bill for 3 hours was $12k the hospital bill for 2hrs was $6k the ambulance was $2500. Thankfully our insurance paid for the bulk. 
Most Americans are uninsured and would not have the same outcome. 
My son needs an epi-pen. Costs us $300 every 6 months or so. My breathing inhaler is $50 We actually have great medical insurance. We pay $320 every month for medical premiums (My husbands employer pays the bulk cost @ $18k for our medical insurance. It's a bloody rip off. 

Healthcare in the US is awful. We pay more for health insurance than we do for housing. 

Let's not forget the itty bitty fact many Americans LOVE Dump, I mean Trump ;p 

My husband wanted me to list some of our high costs, because he remembers NZ being lower/nonexistent. 
He reckons the biggest perk in the US is from a materialistic viewpoint. If you love all the doodads and unlimited choices America is for you. 
Car insurance is $2200yr 
Home owners insurance is $1500yr 
Real estate tax is $6000yr 
Flood insurance $400yr 
Umbrella insurance $400yr (a must because Americans are sue happy) 
We buy mostly organic non GMO food $1500+ month 
Water and garbage $79-$100 monthly 
Preschool $375 monthly (church run - aka cheap) He is taxed almost identical to that of NZ (when factoring the same wages) 

We are working towards our permanent move to NZ. Hopefully within 2 years. The US doesn't feel home. We certainly don't want to raise our 3 kids here much longer. 

If you have more specific questions let me know! I wish you luck!


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## vagrant

Thanks Foxilady. I've just returned to Seoul after some time in the bay area (Berkeley) and Austin, TX. After returning to Korea I was pretty much sold on moving to the US. Then I read your post 

I currently pay about $50k/yr for 2 kids in an international school in Seoul - which is very average in terms of teaching quality by my reckoning. Teachers are all from midwest and southern USA. Kids are both bored witless.

I have also been paying privately for comprehensive medical insurance for the past 15 years (Bupa) so I'm accustomed to forking out for all that. I know the US is ridiculously expensive in that area.

The CA taxes are a concern, but housing is relatively cheap compared to Auckland and my income in the US is 60-70% greater than what I would earn in NZ. That makes it very hard to move back home - on an NZ income we would be in a cramped, leaky, 100 year old home with ill-fitting sash windows and unlevelled floors - and a huge mortgage. Either that or a decent home but a compulsory, unnecessary 2 hour commute to a backward company in a downtown Auckland office.

I'm not sure what is driving cost of living in NZ but it is certainly not salaries. 

It looks like I can get a pretty decent home in Santa Rosa or around Folsom lake (towards Tahoe) for under $600k. I have co-workers in those areas who say the occasional (once a week) commute to the bay is not so bad. Does that ring true?


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## vagrant

Puppy Love said:


> So, for a family of 4 to not be stressed about $$, they have to prioritize and NOT get swept up in the American spending and materialism. One can find inexpensive "stuff" easily.
> I'm a big fan of just being outdoors hiking and enjoying the coastal hikes....one big playground!
> 
> Yes, follow your heart!!


Thanks - originally coming from NZ that suits me perfectly. I'm so tired of all the "ranking" bull***t that goes on in my adopted part of the world that I'm looking forward to being around like-minded people.

I'm more interested in whether I can go on a hike from my front door without choking on industrial/vehicle emissions than what model of car I'm driving.


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## Puppy Love

I live in Sebastopol, right next to Santa Rosa (and work in Santa Rosa)....are you thinking of commuting to San Francisco (SF proper?)? Would you like more information/opinion?

And yes...fresh air hiking is everywhere here toward the coast. But I think Folsom (Folsom Lake?) has poor air quality as it's in the valley.


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## vagrant

Puppy Love said:


> I live in Sebastopol, right next to Santa Rosa (and work in Santa Rosa)....are you thinking of commuting to San Francisco (SF proper?)? Would you like more information/opinion?
> 
> And yes...fresh air hiking is everywhere here toward the coast. But I think Folsom (Folsom Lake?) has poor air quality as it's in the valley.


Thanks, yes I'm now seriously considering Sonoma county - close enough to the SF office for the occasional once-a-week commute. Time to start gathering documentation for the visa... :fingerscrossed: I guess this thread doesn't belong here (NZ) any more.

Maybe after 5 years the income/housing cost ratio in Auckland will correct itself and I will be able to afford to move back home. :confused2:


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## Puppy Love

I will PM you tonight after work. Congrats on your decision


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## vagrant

Replying to an old thread to wrap up the original question.

Decided to move to the US. SF Bay area. Based on experience it's not cheap, but neither is Auckland - and my NZ income based on job offers will be only 60% of the US income (before tax in both countries). I can get a decent house near a good school and BART for the same price as a cross-lease shack in Auckland - and also keep my US salary.

Something is wrong here - perhaps it's because my family are all NZ citizens so there is no undiscovered mystery that is worth giving up 100k per year.

Alternatively, maybe I'm just an a$$hole looking at household budget ahead of other unquantifiable things. Either way I'm kinda sad. NZ is home, it's just an incredibly costly home relative to income.

Thanks all, I'll be asking questions under another parent topic...


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## Crawford

vagrant said:


> Replying to an old thread to wrap up the original question.
> 
> Decided to move to the US. SF Bay area. Based on experience it's not cheap, but neither is Auckland - and my NZ income based on job offers will be only 60% of the US income (before tax in both countries). I can get a decent house near a good school and BART for the same price as a cross-lease shack in Auckland - and also keep my US salary.
> 
> Something is wrong here - perhaps it's because my family are all NZ citizens so there is no undiscovered mystery that is worth giving up 100k per year.
> 
> Alternatively, maybe I'm just an a$$hole looking at household budget ahead of other unquantifiable things. Either way I'm kinda sad. NZ is home, it's just an incredibly costly home relative to income.
> 
> Thanks all, I'll be asking questions under another parent topic...


Would be interested to know how you get on once you have sorted out all your details.

Am somewhat surprised that you find accommodation in the Bay area not any more expensive than Auckland, since most people find accommodation costs in the Bay eye watering.

Just visited Silicon Valley/San Fran areas this past week, not having been there for a few years. Oh, the traffic - horrendous.

As your salary is going to be so much more than in NZ it's still an opportunity you can;t miss I suppose.


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## vagrant

Agreed that Bay Area prices are also super inflated - and the SF peninsula down to Silicon Valley is the worst. I'm avoiding all that.

The problem is how big is mortgage compared to income. in the US I can be "close enough" to the office to come in once or twice a week and have a mortgage 2x-3x salary. My company and plenty of others don't need me present every day; I can decide who and when I want to meet (clients are spread all over the US).

In Auckland the job opportunities are rather more functional, low salary and desk bound. "If you're not in the office then you're not at work". I'll never find the same job but I'd be looking at a 6x mortgage on a NZ salary. That's the difference I'm talking about.

I'll post an update once I'm moved - still working on the banking+housing logistics for the next month or two.


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## RobbieLee

*Seeking your advice*

Hi Vagrant, I tried to PM you but apparently I'm not allowed to do that yet... I'm American and my husband is a Korean citizen with an American green card. The election results have us seriously considering leaving the country, for many reasons, but most importantly because with Trump's election my job/career field just got a lot less stable. Obviously Korea would be the easiest place to go legally, but I have a lot of hesitation about finding work there (for me, not my husband) and raising our mixed-race kids there. My husband has a friend from his Korean high school who lives and works in Auckland and raves about it, so he suggested we look into NZ as a possibility. I can't believe on my first visit to this forum I found a New Zealander who lives and works in Seoul. Would you be willing to talk to me about what your experience has been living and working in Seoul as a waegukin, and any advice you might have about NZ?


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## vagrant

Apologies for the late reply but I've had the same issue and am not familiar with the rules here.

I get a message that you have _"chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore you may not send your message to him/her."_

I'm happy to help but this thread is not the right place for that topic; perhaps the Korea forum.


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## Lee1974

I live here in the USA, and if you originally left NZ due to work concerns and want a job with the opportunity for growth then you should probably stick with your original reason for leaving NZ. USA does pay more and have more opportunities for growth. Just my opinion, is that if you left for a specific reason and nothing has changed in NZ then I'd stick with that.


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## vagrant

Thanks for that!

At the end of December '16 I moved to U.S.; so far so good despite moving in holiday season. I think the most challenging thing was dealing with California DMV, but even that wasn't so bad. Everything else has been easy peasy.

Kids are in school and loving it - most important thing.


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## carpenterrn

we did NZ for a year. Would go back in a heartbeat. My experience is also that most Kiwis eventually go back. It is not all about material things and career, after all.


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## Shimshady

I'm a korean guy grew up, been living in the US 
and I also lived in Sydney for 7 years,
I'm planning to move to NZ with my NZer partner in a few months 
Seoul is an amazing city but I totally feel you!! I was born there but
it's a very hectic place
the only thing you have to really consider living in the US is the health insurance..
I've witnessed so many people living without one then they just get sick
or having an accident, it's game over.
from what I know, NZ has one of the worlds best welfare/ health care system
so I think that's going to bring a lot of peace in my mind but I also was told
it's extremely hard to find jobs.. which I'm really worried about now
I think it really depends on where you're thinking of moving to in the US,
I grew up in bay area, now it's almost impossible to live there
literally all my friends i grew up with, they ALL moved out of the city
because they can't just afford to live there.
Now I'm living in Las Vegas, rent is ridiculously cheap and you can eat out having some
nice meals around $10 
but there are a lot of ghetto people/parts in here and the weather is just killing you
(it's around 50 degrees right now)


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## Lee1974

if it was me, i'd rather be close to home ( family ) and be able to see them as often as possible. I would consider where you and your family live as home and not where you're originally from.


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## Giles_50

NZ wil be better depending on your line of work if your in the online marketing space ten USA but anything else id say NZ


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