# Thinking of moving to Estepona?



## chica escocesa

Hi everyone 

New to the forum. Currently live in central Scotland and thinking of making the move to Estepona in the next 3-4 years, not straight away. I realise things will change in that time but am starting my research now - I like being organised!! I would really like some opinions as to whether you think we are being realistic about the move and if it's a 'good' idea. Here is our situation: 

I am a French/Spanish/Italian teacher at a local high school here. I'm 32 and have been doing this for 5 years. My Spanish is good but not amazing - I had to do the qualification later on and have never lived in Spain, I can carry out transactions and hold a conversation. My idea is to keep working on this in the next 3-4 years and hopefully start a language school in Spain offering tefl, French, Spanish and Italian lessons. I would be aiming at locals for the English and holidaymakers and expats for the Spanish. I know there are already a few language schools in Estepona. If this idea doesn't work I'm happy to teach languages for someone else if possible. 

My husband has a business here which is where he income would come from - he would have to come home once a month to start off with but can do a lot online from home. He has no Spanish just now but is enrolling on a beginners course as we speak which I will back up at home with him. He has 2 sons from a previous marriage who will be around the 14 and 17 age by the time we move (part of the reason we can't move now!). I am also pregnant with our first child so hoping to move before it would start school. 

Our plan would be to sell our house here and rent in Estepona for a year to see how it goes. We would use some of the money from the house sale to set up my business and keep some for a potential deposit to buy if things work out. 

My concerns are really that my husband has never lived abroad before - how will he react? We also have a pretty comfortable lifestyle at home some of which may need to be compromised in for the improvement in weather/environment. 

What do you think, can we do it? Are we being realistic with our plans/ideas? Any thoughts (positive and negative welcome as long as constructive)! Thanks for any input you can provide.


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## mrypg9

I live near Estepona which is a lovely little town, very 'Spanish'...well, it is in Spain but some folk think parts of the CdS aren't the 'real' Spain.

The main problem is lack of jobs. The unemployment rate in Estepona and the surrounding area is around 35% so if you are relying on finding work, then even in three years time things aren't going to be much better...in fact they could be worse as the Government seems to have no plans for growth.

I have a friend who teaches foreign languages....she is Estepona-based and has so little teaching work she takes any job going - waitressing, looking after the elderly -just to keep alive! 

If you can live off your husband's income, no problem. But no way would I sell your UK property.
Things are very very bad here and I can't see any improvement for the next five to ten years, tbh.

We're retired and very happily settled here but no way would I have moved if I needed to work.
I have worked as a teacher of French, German and English and as a translator/interpreter but I don't think I'd get a full-time well-paying post here.

As for adjusting....we lived in Prague for three years before coming to Spain and I wasn't keen on moving here. My partner was very keen and being a vegetarian was literally fading away in Prague. I wasn't very happy for the first few months here. We rented an apartment which I hated and I missed the opera, theatre, concerts...all the rich and varied cultural life of Central Europe.
But then we found the house we live in now, began to meet people of all nationalities although we don't mix with fellow Brit immigrants much and began to participate in the community life of our small, quiet village. We had planned to spend a few years here then move on to France but I can't imagine living anywhere else now. There are many cultural events of all kinds, I can get English books from amazon.uk, we participate in running an animal charity and I belong to a Spanish political party.
It can be very hot here -it last rained here almost twelve weeks ago - but then compared to the minus 25C temperatures and snow of Prague and the grey skies of the UK...what's not to like?


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## chica escocesa

Thanks so much for your reply. The idea behind selling our house was to give us a financial cushion to start off with. If things don't work out after a year we will come back to the uk and buy another house. I am planning on applying for a career break from work for 2 years so hopefully my position would still be available as a fall back. I don't know if we could get by on my husbands money alone - we would need to wait and see what his earnings are closer to the time. We don't like having all our eggs in one basket , which is why it's always nice for me to have some of my own income. I was thinking if I could make 1000 euros a month that would probably do. I have seen quite a lot of tefl jobs advertised, do you think that is a better option? Or possibly seeking work in an international school? I do understand things are awful in Spain at the moment - we have just come back from Seville cordoba and Estepona. We saw many demos and also lots of homeless people/empty retail units. Seems like I need to research the prospects of me getting any work a bit more. I could even work online delivering tutorials via Skype.


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## mrypg9

chica escocesa said:


> Thanks so much for your reply. The idea behind selling our house was to give us a financial cushion to start off with. If things don't work out after a year we will come back to the uk and buy another house. I am planning on applying for a career break from work for 2 years so hopefully my position would still be available as a fall back. I don't know if we could get by on my husbands money alone - we would need to wait and see what his earnings are closer to the time. We don't like having all our eggs in one basket , which is why it's always nice for me to have some of my own income. I was thinking if I could make 1000 euros a month that would probably do. I have seen quite a lot of tefl jobs advertised, do you think that is a better option? Or possibly seeking work in an international school? I do understand things are awful in Spain at the moment - we have just come back from Seville cordoba and Estepona. We saw many demos and also lots of homeless people/empty retail units. Seems like I need to research the prospects of me getting any work a bit more. I could even work online delivering tutorials via Skype.


I think you do need to research a bit more, tbh. You may find it very difficult to earn a steady 1000 euros a month...as a self-employed person you will have to pay the dreaded autonomo which is around 250 euros a month regardless of whether you earn 100 or 1000 euros a month.

The problem seems to me (I don't work, I may be wrong) is that such work as is available in your field is usually low-paid and temporary. But Pesky and Xavia know more than I do about teaching TEFL and in schools so their input will be more useful than mine.

I honestly don't know how much demand there is for TEFL here. As I said in my first post, my friend the TEFL teacher in Estepona has hardly any.

But then I was offered a job teaching...which I don't want! Here it seems a matter of who you know...


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## chica escocesa

Ok great all is not lost. Thank you very much for your advice. When we were in Estepona I noticed quite a lot of waiters/waitresses/shop assistants spoke little or no English. One girl even told me it was a joy to have a customer who could speak Spanish. When I asked if many of her customers were English speakers she replied 'all'! These are the people I would probably like to first target for group English lessons. I would also be advertising in the uk and elsewhere for people to come to Spain and learn Spanish so hopefully not relying solely on Spanish clients in the current climate. I know what you mean though - it could be very patchy especially at the start. I suppose it's unusual for any business to make much money in the first year. I will look into it a lot more, it may be worth us considering a holiday home which we pay off now and retire to instead I'm not sure, a lot will depend on how much we really 'need' my income I think.


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## mrypg9

chica escocesa said:


> Ok great all is not lost. Thank you very much for your advice. When we were in Estepona I noticed quite a lot of waiters/waitresses/shop assistants spoke little or no English. One girl even told me it was a joy to have a customer who could speak Spanish. When I asked if many of her customers were English speakers she replied 'all'! These are the people I would probably like to first target for group English lessons. I would also be advertising in the uk and elsewhere for people to come to Spain and learn Spanish so hopefully not relying solely on Spanish clients in the current climate.
> 
> I know what you mean though - it could be very patchy especially at the start. I suppose it's unusual for any business to make much money in the first year. I will look into it a lot more, it may be worth us considering a holiday home which we pay off now and retire to instead I'm not sure, a lot will depend on how much we really 'need' my income I think.


If you have no children to think about and don't burn your bridges in the UK, then I'd say give it a go but have low expectations...that way you won't be disappointed.

I'm always ready to say that any jobs going should go to unemployed Spanish people but that doesn't apply to you!

But you need to bear in mind that many Town Halls offer Spanish lessons for immigrants and that money is scarce all round so learning a language might be seen as an extravagance.

How much you need to live on depends on your lfestyle and where you live. Our 
house is our major expense but apart from that two adults and a large dog live well on around 1000 euros a month for all utilities, internet, groceries, diesel.
Our rent is excluded from that but we consider ourselves as being on a permanent holiday so it's a permitted extravagance if you know whast I mean.

Incidentally, my partner is Glaswegian....whereabouts in Scotland are you?


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## 90199

Tour plan seems to have possibilities and you are planning well into the future, I wish you luck.

One thing though, I am told that the Spanish winters are far worse than those in the the U.K., perhaps you should first pay a visit in January or February? 

I live in the Canary Isles, El Hierro, winters aren't allowed here


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## chica escocesa

Hi, welcome to the thread! Thanks. I don't believe for one minute that the winter in Costa del Sol can be worse than Scotland. The last 3 winters here have been horrendous, the snow was so bad the school I work in was shut for a whole week and we could not get the car out of the street for 4 weeks. That is some extreme weather. We are in 'summer' at the moment and we are having torrential rain and floods. Weather is one of the main reasons we are considering the move along with lifestyle. It's summer holidays here right now and kids can't go outside to play - they are all indoors on computers or watching tv!


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## chica escocesa

Mrypg9

I'm in Livingston right in between Edinburgh and Glasgow. I do love Scotland but having done a languages degree and lived in places as beautiful as Corsica and Tuscany I do realise there is a '3rd way' of life available. 

Also, I actually think the BEST person should get the job, irrespective of nationality - believe you me that's what happens here.


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## 90199

My Father used to live further north than the C.D.S. near Moraira, there it used to get so cold that they had to light the gas fires in the winter!

I am sure others will advise you better on the weather. Snow, yes I remember, white stuff that falls from the sky. Often in the winter we can see a snow capped Mount Teide on the island of Tenerife. 

Here, we often get approached to teach English, not being teachers we always decline, however we have on occasions allowed students to practise their English with us on an evening, in a bar.

The reason that we are approached is that here there are only five English people and maybe one Scot, but I think he has moved on.


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## chica escocesa

Maybe the Canaries would be a better place for us then! We have holidayed many tunes in Lanzarote but found it a little quiet to actually live there. Hmmm, food for thought though.


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## 90199

chica escocesa said:


> Maybe the Canaries would be a better place for us then! We have holidayed many tunes in Lanzarote but found it a little quiet to actually live there. Hmmm, food for thought though.



It is even quieter here!

When we need a short break from the solitude and remoteness of this island, we fly to Las Palmas de Gran Canaria, now that city buzzes, couldn't live there though, here is now our home.

There are photos if you follow the link below.


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## Pesky Wesky

Hi,
I'm an English teacher who's lived here for a good few years. I started out working in an academy giving classes to children and adults, then another couple of academies teaching only adults. From there I went part time academy/ part time company classes to part owning a cooperative, and eventually to being freelance company teacher which is what I do now... I think... 
I've been freelance for over 10 years and I've never had any problems getting classes; the opposite in fact, waiting lists and people phoning almost every day, prices steadily going up - until this year. One company has halved its classes, another is thinking about it until September... Another is actually expanding, but I won't be able to cover all the classes so they actually might get rid of me and get an organisation that can cover everything, I can't win!

But that's just what's happening to me...
It's true there will always be some work for English teachers, but you always have to take into account the permanency, the salary level and the outside issues.
Permanency - you'll start off with a group of 6 in September that'll be 5 in December, 4 in January and you'll be struggling to have 2 together on any one day of the week by Easter. I charge a price per hour and it doesn't matter how many there are in the group, the company always pays the same price.
Salary level - Children go to after school English classes A LOT. There is a lot of interest in the Cambridge exams (Flyers, Movers etc all the way up to First, Advanced etc) But these are not clases where you'll make big money usually, and when they have school exams they often don't go to class ... Company classes are much better paid than academies and children's classes, but the companies are closing down or cutting costs (which is what has happened to me)
Outside issues - Spaniards know that English is vital for their children and for an adult to get almost anywhere on the career ladder nowadays. They will do anything they can to learn English, but if they haven't got the money (unemployment at 25%, salaries at around 1000€) or the time (many finish work at 8 in the evening) they'll find it difficult to do.

So, one way or another I think you'd get some work. Enough to live on, rather than survive on? I wouldn't like to say. I think your best bet would be to look at opportunities in British or international schools which might be a bit better paid and with a guaranteed monthly salary. Or somewhere very well established like British Council or International House. And obviously I'm talking about now. Three or four years down the line, who knows?

PS Forgot to say that I'm in the Madrid region and this info is based on that and what I know of the south of Spain which is very general.


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## chica escocesa

Ok that's great thanks. Sounds like there is the chance of me earning enough to supplement my husbands income enough. I think the plan would be to arrive with enough of a financial cushion to support us for a year and maybe before I arrive start contacting international schools to let them know I'm available and in the area. I don't need to earn a lot, in fact I'd rather earn less and work for myself. Do you pay the autonomo and how much are taxes on top of this?


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## Pesky Wesky

chica escocesa said:


> Ok that's great thanks. Sounds like there is the chance of me earning enough to supplement my husbands income enough. I think the plan would be to arrive with enough of a financial cushion to support us for a year and maybe before I arrive start contacting international schools to let them know I'm available and in the area. I don't need to earn a lot, in fact I'd rather earn less and work for myself. Do you pay the autonomo and how much are taxes on top of this?


Yes, I pay 254,41€ a month and tax has just gone up from 15% 21%, coming into force on the 1st of August. The tax used to be lower for the first couple of years though, and may still be. Also xabiachica told me the autónomo payment varies according to age and I don't know what else.


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, I pay 254,41€ a month and tax has just gone up from 15% 21%, coming into force on the 1st of August. The tax used to be lower for the first couple of years though, and may still be. Also xabiachica told me the autónomo payment varies according to age and I don't know what else.


yes, the older you are (nearer to retirement) when you start paying (I think that's how my gestor explained it :confused2 the more you pay - mine is more than Pesky Wesky's cos I started as autónoma here more recently than she did & I think I'm a bit older, too


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> yes, the older you are (nearer to retirement) when you start paying (I think that's how my gestor explained it :confused2 the more you pay - mine is more than Pesky Wesky's cos I started as autónoma here more recently than she did & I think I'm a bit older, too


Hello there xabiachica.
Just wondering what you think about what I wrote earlier on the teaching situation/ opportunities as they are now. I didn't say anything about starting an academy, but my feeling would be - Risky!!

To chica escocesa - if you decide to go for international schools you'd do well to look here for jobs and info, the Guardian and the TES
Jobs | Nabss


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hello there xabiachica.
> Just wondering what you think about what I wrote earlier on the teaching situation/ opportunities as they are now. I didn't say anything about starting an academy, but my feeling would be - Risky!!
> 
> To chica escocesa - if you decide to go for international schools you'd do well to look here for jobs and info, the Guardian and the TES
> Jobs | Nabss


I totally agree with everything you said - & yes, way too risky imo to start an academy atm - but in four years - who knows?? I suspect it will be more risky still, but only time will tell

I was about to start one a few years ago ( a sort of co-op like you used to have) , but almost at the last minute I got cold feet - the recession seemed to be biting - it was the best decision I ever made to put a stop to it - one day I hope to resurrect the idea - but I suspect I'll be hobbling around on a zimmer frame long before it's a viable time


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## chica escocesa

Thanks for all the info guys it's really helpful. If you are self employed do you HAVE to pay the autonomo and if so what does it entitle you to?


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## xabiaxica

chica escocesa said:


> Thanks for all the info guys it's really helpful. If you are self employed do you HAVE to pay the autonomo and if so what does it entitle you to?


yes, if you are in regular work, you have to pay it - it does entitle you to healthcare though & maybe a bit of a pension further down the line

I have heard recently that if the work is very erratic & you earn less than something like 600€ a month (that sounds too much to me :confused2: - but it might be an average) then you might not have to - I'm going to try & check that out with my gestor this week before he disappears for August - I'll post when I know more


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## chica escocesa

Ok brilliant thanks. Do you have to declare all your income? Sorry for the questions! From what you guys are saying maybe starting a language school would not work in the current climate but either working freelance or in an international school would be a better idea.


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## xabiaxica

chica escocesa said:


> Ok brilliant thanks. Do you have to declare all your income? Sorry for the questions! From what you guys are saying maybe starting a language school would not work in the current climate but either working freelance or in an international school would be a better idea.


yes, you have to declare all your income...................... though I dare say many don't


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## mrypg9

chica escocesa said:


> Do you have to declare all your income? .


As in all civilised countries....yes. Spain like the UK is cracking down on the 'cash in hand' merchants and quite right too.

Although I can understand why some long-term unemployed in Spain have no option but to work on the black simply to survive.

But not paying tax due is a crime. Shame that HMRC spends more time persecuting small and medium-business owners than hunting down the big time tax cheats, though.

We had businesses in the UK, paid all VAT and other tax due, paid our employees top wage rates ...and deeply resented those who undercut us by avoiding tax due.

Using legitimate tax loopholes is different, although many see it as immoral.


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## chica escocesa

Was your business in the uk very successful? There are few small businesses in the uk able to survive without cutting a few corners so to speak!


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## mrypg9

chica escocesa said:


> Was your business in the uk very successful? There are few small businesses in the uk able to survive without cutting a few corners so to speak!


Yes. That's why we had a good life in Prague and now have a better one here. I'm now over retirement age but my partner retired ten years before her due retirement date. We employed around twenty-five people in two separate but related businesses and when we decided we'd had enough and had enough to live on as we wished we packed up, sold up and left the UK. I guess we could have carried on and made more money but we aren't rats so left the rat race.

It was not my impression that most businesses 'cut corners' otherwise known as cheating the taxpayer. Our view was that if you can't operate honestly and pay decent wages you shouldn't be in business.

Because we didn't operate a cash-in-hand no VAT type business as well as other factors we had a reputation for honesty and a good job done at a fair price. 

Our view was that you couldn't complain about poor infrastructure, inadequate policing and so on if you dodged paying the taxes that provided these things.

I had always assumed this spirit of paying your fair share and being honest and above-board to be a Scottish characteristic. It certainly wasn't my way of thinking until 'caught' from my OH.


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## chica escocesa

Good for you! I think that's great and hopefully what we'll be able to do within 10 years by which point I'll be nowhere near my retirement age but I'm sure I'll find things to fill the time! I couldn't possibly comment on whether or not it's a 'Scottish' characteristic - I personally believe there's no such thing although we do have a great history of philanthropy in Scotland and generally believe in more lefty, share the wealth policies than our southern neighbours. 
My husband's business isn't really a 'cash' business so we can't really be guilty on that count but having worked in hospitality for 5 years before going into teaching I can tell you there's a fair amount of 'running a keg through for cash' etc that goes on. Does it bother me? Not really, despite the fact I work for the state and pay my share. Most of these people are hard working, enterprising and provide employment for others. They also pay a fair bit of tax in most cases. 
Tax policy in the uk/Scotland seem more conducive to enterprise and job creation - the autonomo and 21% tax rate can't be doing much to stimulate growth and job creation in Spain.


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## Tilley

Having just spent a few days looking round a smallish Spanish City called Cartagena, i must admitt that I have never seen so many places that appeared to be English Language schools. 

In areas where there were retail shops many of the buildings above these had been turned into language shools in which the Spanish could go to learn English. Being the summer it was hard to assess how busy they were though. 

I couldn't decide if this mean't there would be a huge amount of employmnent available in this field or if everybody had tried to open up a language school and therefore there would be so much competition in the market that it would be hard to get a foot hold. 

It did strike me that to make a go of things people would probably need to be in an area where there was a fair amount of affluent Spanish that could afford to pay for language tuition, for their children or themselves. I also wondered about the quality of what might be available, presumably anyone who is excellent at what they do and for want of a better word offers high levels of customer service would I think have a much better chance of making a go of these kinds of concerns. 

I think I am only posting as I was suprised at how many of these places there were and wondered how they all made a living.But I think there is always a place if you can offer a form of excellence in what you do, as you will then be recommeded on by satisfied clients/students.


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## chica escocesa

Thanks Tilley that's interesting. I know I am good at what I do just now, but that is mainly teaching French and Spanish to secondary school pupils, not TEFL. However, maybe my uk teaching qualification and experience could be seen as an asset I suppose? I'm not sure, but I must be better placed than just a random native English speaker who decides to give English lessons. It really comes down to demand though, no matter how good you are. If there is no market for the service you are offering you will not be successful.


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## Tilley

I think so, and you have set yourself a really good time frame in which to prepare so hopefully you will have a good financial buffer, I think in a really competative market to have any chance of success you may need to excel at what you do so to stand ouot from the crowd, if that makes sense, and when a Country is in dire straits even more so. I hope it works out for you.


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## chica escocesa

Thanks for the kind words! Before I got my permanent teaching job here I was getting by on some supply teaching and tutoring to individuals and businesses. Although the cash was more irregular my services were always in demand and I got lots of jobs through word of mouth referrals. I'm imagining the same may happen in Spain as long as we've got enough money to set us up for a year or 2 without stressing too much.


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## mrypg9

chica escocesa said:


> Good for you! I think that's great and hopefully what we'll be able to do within 10 years by which point I'll be nowhere near my retirement age but I'm sure I'll find things to fill the time! I couldn't possibly comment on whether or not it's a 'Scottish' characteristic - I personally believe there's no such thing although we do have a great history of philanthropy in Scotland and generally believe in more lefty, share the wealth policies than our southern neighbours.
> My husband's business isn't really a 'cash' business so we can't really be guilty on that count but having worked in hospitality for 5 years before going into teaching I can tell you there's a fair amount of 'running a keg through for cash' etc that goes on. Does it bother me? Not really, despite the fact I work for the state and pay my share. Most of these people are hard working, enterprising and provide employment for others. They also pay a fair bit of tax in most cases.
> Tax policy in the uk/Scotland seem more conducive to enterprise and job creation - the autonomo and 21% tax rate can't be doing much to stimulate growth and job creation in Spain.


I certainly concur with the sentiments in your last paragraph. Labour laws in Spain have been relaxed but redundancy payments are far too high and the permanent/temporary contract divide needs remedying.
Spain ranks very low on the 'Best Places to Do Business' index, partly I guess through the bureaucracy and partly because in times of economic contraction it's difficult for a small business to shed staff.

But generally I do not agree with tax dodging. It's illegal, it's immoral(greedy) and hurts the national economy. Spain is currently experiencing a much reduced tax take -partly because of unemployment but mainly through the estimated 20% lost to the black economy.

In a nutshell, if you want quality public services -schools, hospitals, infrastructure - you should pay your due taxes. I can understand unemployed people in Spain doing cash in hand jobs merely to put food on the table. But in the UK tax cheats do it for greed or inefficiency. If it's wrong to cheat the welfare system it's wrong to cheat HMRC. 

Interesting too that it's 'OK' to say publicly you're a tax dodger....but would anyone be bold or shameless enough to say they're defrauding the DHSS?


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## chica escocesa

Anyone else confused by last post? 

I also disagree with tax dodging in general. However I think there is a big difference between someone who constantly works 'on the side' at the same time as claiming benefits (for example) and someone who runs their own business and pays tax but maybe does the odd 'cash' job or runs a keg through for cash. 

I don't think the smart people go about gobbing off about what they're doing but I do remember once when I was a student being in the job centre looking for a part time job and a guy coming in, walking round the job stand for 15 seconds, going up to the counter and saying 'Right that's me looked for a job this week, now can I have my giro?'. So yes there are people who are that blatant about having no desire to work.


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## mrypg9

chica escocesa said:


> Anyone else confused by last post?
> 
> I also disagree with tax dodging in general. However I think there is a big difference between someone who constantly works 'on the side' at the same time as claiming benefits (for example) and someone who runs their own business and pays tax but maybe does the odd 'cash' job or runs a keg through for cash.
> 
> I don't think the smart people go about gobbing off about what they're doing but I do remember once when I was a student being in the job centre looking for a part time job and a guy coming in, walking round the job stand for 15 seconds, going up to the counter and saying 'Right that's me looked for a job this week, now can I have my giro?'. So yes there are people who are that blatant about having no desire to work.


We'll have to disagree. about tax anyway. Any tax dodging is wrong. If it's wrong for a multi-millionaire it's wrong for Fred Bloggs round the corner. Theft is theft, murder is murder, tax dodging is tax dodging. Why would a successful business need to do the odd cash job??

We used to get really p***d*d off when we'd give a price for a job and the customer would say 'Oh my mate can do it for half that price'.
Well, his mate didn't have the correct tools or equipment, often used parts from a breaker's yard and worked on the street or in his garage. Of course he paid no tax or other overheads.
Many times the customer would come back, looking sheepish and telling us that the repair hadn't seemed to fix the problem..

But agree about the idle few who make the genuinely needy feel ashamed about claiming benefits.


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## gus-lopez

mrypg9 said:


> Spain ranks very low on the 'Best Places to Do Business' index, partly I guess through the bureaucracy and partly because in times of economic contraction it's difficult for a small business to shed staff.


They are above Botswana! apparently it takes 140 days to start a business in Spain. :confused2:


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## chica escocesa

Cool I'm fine with agreeing to disagree I respect others opinions. What you are talking about there is not the same thing as me though. The world is not always so black and white. Some successful people/businesses don't do it through need.


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## mrypg9

chica escocesa said:


> Cool I'm fine with agreeing to disagree I respect others opinions. What you are talking about there is not the same thing as me though. The world is not always so black and white. Some successful people/businesses don't do it through need.




Which is what I said. They do it because they are greedy or because they think it's clever to pull a fast one over the Inland Revenue.

Plenty of people like that in Spain....sadly.

Anyway, as a teacher I assume you are employed by the LEA so you have your tax snatched at source!!


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## chica escocesa

Yes, I do ...and student loan...and NI...and pension...! All in all a third of my salary. Joy!


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> yes, if you are in regular work, you have to pay it - it does entitle you to healthcare though & maybe a bit of a pension further down the line
> 
> I have heard recently that if the work is very erratic & you earn less than something like 600€ a month (that sounds too much to me :confused2: - but it might be an average) then you might not have to - I'm going to try & check that out with my gestor this week before he disappears for August - I'll post when I know more


Hi xabia,
when I went to "darme de baja" OH came and asked about paying when you have a month with not much work. The answer was a bit vague ...
She said she would never advise anyone to not pay autónomo, but on the other hand if you earned less than the salario minimo interprofesional (the minimum standard set for each sector) then it would be, and here I can't remember the exact words reasonable (??) to not pay it. However, I imagine it might be a case of paying it and then claiming it back. 
I do get a quite large tax rebate every year...
Perhaps this post is too confusing. I didn't know whether to just PM you ?? I'll leave it up to you whether you delete it or not.
Anyway, I think we need your gestors input!!


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hi xabia,
> when I went to "darme de baja" OH came and asked about paying when you have a month with not much work. The answer was a bit vague ...
> She said she would never advise anyone to not pay autónomo, but on the other hand if you earned less than the salario minimo interprofesional (the minimum standard set for each sector) then it would be, and here I can't remember the exact words reasonable (??) to not pay it. However, I imagine it might be a case of paying it and then claiming it back.
> I do get a quite large tax rebate every year...
> Perhaps this post is too confusing. I didn't know whether to just PM you ?? I'll leave it up to you whether you delete it or not.
> Anyway, I think we need your gestors input!!


that's pretty much what I've heard - all very vague - he's on his hols now (hope he remembered to _dar*me* de baja_ before he went............ I will pin him down when he gets back


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## mrypg9

Today will be an important day for anyone interested in the Spanish economy ..which is just about all of us here.

Not far away from us is a smallish residential complex with apartments mainly owned by Spanish families from Madrid. It's one of those 'aparthotels' complexes with a gym, sauna, restaurant, tennis courts and so on. Because there is insufficient parking space within the grounds, cars tend to park along the street and even as far as our house, often lining both sides of the road.

I'm guessing today is the start of 'Operacion Salida'...so we're expecting a load of cars and happy people walking to the village or beach which is really nice as it's usually extremely quiet here.

But whereas in June/July the complex has in the past three years we've been here been quite busy, this year has been totally different. The state of the economy is definitely affecting even quite well-off people's spending.

It's the same as we saw in Estepona...definitely quieter this year.

That's not good.


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## maxd

Wait until August when the whole of Spain shuts down.


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## xabiaxica

maxd said:


> Wait until August when the whole of Spain shuts down.


it starts this weekend

this is the weekend when everyone will be heading off on hols - as mrypg said - _'Operacion Salida'_ as it's called

so by Monday it will be fairly clear how things stand


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## mrypg9

maxd said:


> Wait until August when the whole of Spain shuts down.


Only three days to go....


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## Pesky Wesky

maxd said:


> Wait until August when the whole of Spain shuts down.


Well, not the _whole_ of Spain. Lets hope the Esteponas, Tarifas, Salous and Santanders are opening up, not closing down!


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, not the _whole_ of Spain. Lets hope the Esteponas, Tarifas, Salous and Santanders are opening up, not closing down!


Walking along the paseo, having a drink watching the families with young children barbecuing/picknicking (spelling?) on the beach at ten o'clock, the volley-ball games on the sand, chatting to the Police Dog Unit who were checking for microchips (briiliant!) and who were very taken with Our Little Azor, the 'street market' the Ayto have organised, the displays of photos of 'Old Estepona'....and the total absence of cursing, aggressive drunken yobs, just animated but inclusive and friendly enjoyment....that's the essence of Spain in summer for us.

Then a stroll back to where I had parked the LR - behind the Palacio - to find that I had left the passenger door wide open (duh..) ....and the Palacio security guard had noticed this and had been standing there for God knows how long watching over the vehicle and waiting for our return...

Don't you just love this country...

Evenings -and days - like this are the reasons I get so hot under the collar when people write off the CdS as a concrete soul-less jungle. Yes, there are the tourist hotspots further towards Malaga and south of Estepona many examples of hideous concrete that would benefit from the attentions of a small well-aimed high explosive charge. 
But to write off a whole area from Nerja virtually down to Gib is to dismiss what is just another variety of Spain's many different faces and enjoyments.

To be frank, from a selfish point of view the calm and quiet of this season is very enjoyable. It's nice to be 'uncrowded', soothing to the soul.
But since Estepona lives from mainly domestic tourism it's not good that it's much easier to stroll along the prom with OLA, that the restaurants and cafes are half-empty so service is swifter.

Great that I don't have to worry about being able to park outside my house to unload the weekly shopping. No sign so far of Operacion Salida, unlike the past two years.

But a worrying portent of what October will bring.


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## donz

Hi, just to add my 2p worth......I have been having private Spanish lessons and my teacher is extremely well qualified (she is actually a chemical engineer as well as teacher qualified), Spanish and very likeable. She is a maths teacher in a private school and still has to teach privately to supplement her wage. She charges €11 / hour.

I totally say give it a go if you can afford to come - but you MUST have a years worth of back up money in the bank. We did it 2 years ago with an existing business in place. Good luck with your research!


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## chica escocesa

Hi donz 

Thanks for that input. I am pleased its working out for you, are you in the CDS area? Hubby and I have decided that we are going to wait and see how the land lies in 2 or 3 years and keep our options open regarding France and Spain. I will keep my eyes open for jobs in international schools especially. There's no way I would move without AT LEAST enough money for a year - I don't need that kind of stress with a small child! We are also considering the option of a holiday home where We could spend all my time off (13 weeks a year). So there are different options. 

I just want to reiterate that we are not running away from the uk and we are not miserable. I have a good secure job five minutes from home and hubby has successful businesses. We have a nice house, nice cars and holidays. It has kind of been implied on this forum that most people who want to move are skint, miserable and without skills which may be true for some but not for us. We would not give this up lightly but my husband would still have income from his businesses probably of around £2000 per month if we move and I would apply for a career break so we have that safety net. 

I think people who have been out of the uk for a while possibly don't realise how bad the weather has got and just how much it affects quality of life. Especially in Scotland the weather has been gradually deteriorating over the past 8 years. Summers are VERY wet, children cannot go out and play. For example it is the summer holidays just now, and kids have probably been able to play outside for 5 or 6 days from the last 4 weeks. We have had 2 EXTREME winters where it has been very difficult to get around, schools have been closed etc. When we were in Spain recently it was so nice to see the fiestas and the virgen del carmen, we can't really have outdoor events at all (look online at T in the park and the highland show this year). All of our local gala days (summer fetes to English people) have been cancelled. It's not as simple as looking out the window at a 'bit of rain' as has been suggested and deciding to move on a whim. Ooops, I do apologise this seems to have turned into a wee bit of a rant, lol!!!


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## mrypg9

chica escocesa said:


> Hi donz
> 
> Thanks for that input. I am pleased its working out for you, are you in the CDS area? Hubby and I have decided that we are going to wait and see how the land lies in 2 or 3 years and keep our options open regarding France and Spain. I will keep my eyes open for jobs in international schools especially. There's no way I would move without AT LEAST enough money for a year - I don't need that kind of stress with a small child! We are also considering the option of a holiday home where We could spend all my time off (13 weeks a year). So there are different options.
> 
> I just want to reiterate that we are not running away from the uk and we are not miserable. I have a good secure job five minutes from home and hubby has successful businesses. We have a nice house, nice cars and holidays. It has kind of been implied on this forum that most people who want to move are skint, miserable and without skills which may be true for some but not for us. We would not give this up lightly but my husband would still have income from his businesses probably of around £2000 per month if we move and I would apply for a career break so we have that safety net.
> 
> I think people who have been out of the uk for a while possibly don't realise how bad the weather has got and just how much it affects quality of life. Especially in Scotland the weather has been gradually deteriorating over the past 8 years. Summers are VERY wet, children cannot go out and play. For example it is the summer holidays just now, and kids have probably been able to play outside for 5 or 6 days from the last 4 weeks. We have had 2 EXTREME winters where it has been very difficult to get around, schools have been closed etc. When we were in Spain recently it was so nice to see the fiestas and the virgen del carmen, we can't really have outdoor events at all (look online at T in the park and the highland show this year). All of our local gala days (summer fetes to English people) have been cancelled. It's not as simple as looking out the window at a 'bit of rain' as has been suggested and deciding to move on a whim. Ooops, I do apologise this seems to have turned into a wee bit of a rant, lol!!!



No need to apologise! Heaven forbid we should frown on ranters. There are often good reasons for a healthy rant.

I think you have chosen the best option for now. If you look back at my first response to your post you'll see that I posted that if you could live off your partner's businesses you'd be fine but finding work for you could be a bit iffy.

I can't get over how quiet things are this year compared to previous years. I would estimate, looking at number of cars parked in neighbouring streets, that the number of visitors is down by 75% this year. This is Week One of Operacion Salida and unless things pick up later in the week it looks bad. Most of the summer visitors here are either French or from Madrid, Seville or other cities.

It may be that the economy will pick up in a year or two but hearing today that it has shrunk by 0.4% in the first quarter of this year does not bode well.

It's a good time to think of renting/buying a holiday property as you will get an idea of what's going on on the ground, as it were.
You never know, you may strike lucky. From two phone conversations this morning I've stumbled on some potentially valuable sources of funding for ADANA and a possible high-profile sponsor....all totally unexpected and out of the blue.
You never know....


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## chica escocesa

That's good news Mary! About the funding, not the 75% drop in visitors.... We thought Estepona was quite busy when we were there, but that's only the second year in a row we've been so no long term comparisons can be made. Estepona is about the same size population wise as the town I live in in Scotland, all I can say is the bars and restaurants are much busier in Estepona than they are here. 

Personally I think the general economy and property market will take between 5-10 years to recover in Europe, but thats just a guess really. 

I don't think we could entirely live off my husbands income which is why I was hoping to supplement it but that is looking difficult/unlikely. A lot will depend on the market conditions here and how we can structure my husbands business when the time comes. We may just decide that opportunities are better for us and the baby here and a holiday home is the way to go. We'll just have to wait and see.


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## mrypg9

chica escocesa said:


> That's good news Mary! About the funding, not the 75% drop in visitors.... We thought Estepona was quite busy when we were there, but that's only the second year in a row we've been so no long term comparisons can be made. Estepona is about the same size population wise as the town I live in in Scotland, all I can say is the bars and restaurants are much busier in Estepona than they are here.
> 
> Personally I think the general economy and property market will take between 5-10 years to recover in Europe, but thats just a guess really.
> 
> I don't think we could entirely live off my husbands income which is why I was hoping to supplement it but that is looking difficult/unlikely. A lot will depend on the market conditions here and how we can structure my husbands business when the time comes. We may just decide that opportunities are better for us and the baby here and a holiday home is the way to go. We'll just have to wait and see.


I think you are right about the five to ten years. Maybe never back to the levels pre-2006/7.

Estepona was busier in May/June from what I saw. The other thing I noticed was that most people in the streets and cafes were local or seemed to be. It's odd, you can usually tell people on holiday from locals, can't you

I'm still quite shocked at the lack of clientele at the aparthotel up the road. True, it's small -probably advertised as 'bijou' or some such ad-speak and caters for the reasonably well-off. So if they're not coming, times are bad.

I didn't realise you had a baby to consider...so yes, you are making the right decision. But as I said, you never know what might come from a chance encounter on a visit here. My partner and I have both been offered jobs...and we're not looking and have worked far too many years between us already. It seems it's who you know that matters here.

The same in Prague...I had a one-day-a-week teaching job there in the Czech Statistics Office. I didn't want the work really but it was interesting and I met some lovely people I still keep in touch with.


Estepona really is one of the lovelier places on the CdS. Authentically Spanish, friendly people, clean beaches....
Was the summer market on the paseo open when you came? It was quite impressive, really well-laid out, smart stalls, not rickety old contraptions and a wide range of what looked like quality goods, not just the usual tat you seem to get everywhere these days.


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## chica escocesa

Yes I'm 14 weeks pregnant! There were some stalls on the paseo but not an official market as such. We did go to the market at the port. It was the first 2 weeks in July we were there. It's the 'spanishness' of it that I really like.


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## mrypg9

chica escocesa said:


> Yes I'm 14 weeks pregnant! There were some stalls on the paseo but not an official market as such. We did go to the market at the port. It was the first 2 weeks in July we were there. It's the 'spanishness' of it that I really like.


Thankyou for saying that!

There are people who think we're not in the 'real' Spain here....


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## maxd

Holiday Villa in Estepona Port - Estepona Town - villa with 5 Bedrooms , Sleeps 12 | 871887 this is the Estepona place we stayed at  was really nice, just the wrong time of year 

Calendar seems really full. Still can make money on villas IMO.


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## mrypg9

maxd said:


> Holiday Villa in Estepona Port - Estepona Town - villa with 5 Bedrooms , Sleeps 12 | 871887 this is the Estepona place we stayed at  was really nice, just the wrong time of year
> 
> Calendar seems really full. Still can make money on villas IMO.


But didn't you say you got a huge discount? I suspect most owners are doing that.
Anyway the house looks nice, is it outside Estepona, on the Sabinillas side? Would be lovely in summer. I guess in February you could only look at the pool. 

My dil's house is also fully booked from June to September but she's lowered her weekly rate by a couple of £100. Don't know about the apartment...But strangely she's had more bookings in the last two years than in the two years before. But she onl rents to people she knows.

But it's odd......wierd in fact. The street outside our house is empty. Good for us, it's very quiet, like winter, but bad for the local economy. Most people seem to go for self-catering so our few local shops, bars and restaurants won't be getting the summer boost they would have expected.

Do you know, it hasn't rained for over twelve weeks......Is it hot in Prague? My friend is having her loft converted into living space so doesn't really want visitors this summer...but I don't feel like going anywhere. Haven't been to the UK since April.


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## brocher

mrypg9 said:


> But didn't you say you got a huge discount? I suspect most owners are doing that.
> Anyway the house looks nice, is it outside Estepona, on the Sabinillas side? Would be lovely in summer. I guess in February you could only look at the pool.
> 
> My dil's house is also fully booked from June to September but she's lowered her weekly rate by a couple of £100. Don't know about the apartment...But strangely she's had more bookings in the last two years than in the two years before. But she onl rents to people she knows.
> 
> But it's odd......wierd in fact. The street outside our house is empty. Good for us, it's very quiet, like winter, but bad for the local economy. Most people seem to go for self-catering so our few local shops, bars and restaurants won't be getting the summer boost they would have expected.
> 
> Do you know, it hasn't rained for over twelve weeks......Is it hot in Prague? My friend is having her loft converted into living space so doesn't really want visitors this summer...but I don't feel like going anywhere. Haven't been to the UK since April.



It is odd - we spent a day in Estapona last July and it did seem very, very "dead" - indeed we watched a tramp on the beach for a while because we did actually think he was dead. Thankfully, a foot twiched after a few minutes - just sleeping!

Think it would have been the first Sunday in May this year, we had lunch on a beach in Estapona, and it was quite busy. We then headed up to town for ice cream and it was very, very busy.

I mentioned to my dd that someone had said on this forum that they had not seen Marbella so busy for years - she said several people have said the same thing to her.


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## newmama

*its all in the mindset*

I actually have just joined this site solely coz i read your post then read the replys all of which were so negative. i mean dont get me wrong some very good points were said it is very true its about "who you know" generally, and jobs in your sector are scarce and the idea of trying to develop your own school is quite an adventurous one. but i have to say you already sound positive having all those languages is a big plus for a start having tefl would be an extra advantage my friend has currently built up her own school (technically) i say technically as she has converted the bottom of her house into the school and this has been through using her TEFL course (and dont worry shes paying into the system nothing dodgey) but as the other person pointed out and i agreed she has built this up from having so many contacts within the community. but it can be done you have to come with the frame of mind that you have to work damm hard and its a struggle especially in your first year and there will be times that youll think god is this too hard everything takes forever to get anywhere but then all of a sudden things start to gel and if your going to work that hard on gettin spanish up to scratch before arrival then you can integrate into the community far easier. if your willing for the 1st while as you try to push your teaching to do other things to get you by it helps to build up friendships and contacts you've always got jobs in gibraltar to fall back on and the fact that your partner will have some sort of money coming in is a stress reliever i say all this as i moved to manilva 4 years ago and now im here with my partner and we have little 8month old and dont get me wrong its frustrating sometimes and hard but in the end we have a far better life than we would at home i think you have to weigh up what it is in life you want as when you live here your happier with the simplier things in life but it has a tranisition period lol sorry about the spelling need my bed i hope ive helped a little.


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## xabiaxica

newmama said:


> I actually have just joined this site solely coz i read your post then read the replys all of which were so negative. i mean dont get me wrong some very good points were said it is very true its about "who you know" generally, and jobs in your sector are scarce and the idea of trying to develop your own school is quite an adventurous one. but i have to say you already sound positive having all those languages is a big plus for a start having tefl would be an extra advantage my friend has currently built up her own school (technically) i say technically as she has converted the bottom of her house into the school and this has been through using her TEFL course (and dont worry shes paying into the system nothing dodgey) but as the other person pointed out and i agreed she has built this up from having so many contacts within the community. but it can be done you have to come with the frame of mind that you have to work damm hard and its a struggle especially in your first year and there will be times that youll think god is this too hard everything takes forever to get anywhere but then all of a sudden things start to gel and if your going to work that hard on gettin spanish up to scratch before arrival then you can integrate into the community far easier. if your willing for the 1st while as you try to push your teaching to do other things to get you by it helps to build up friendships and contacts you've always got jobs in gibraltar to fall back on and the fact that your partner will have some sort of money coming in is a stress reliever i say all this as i moved to manilva 4 years ago and now im here with my partner and we have little 8month old and dont get me wrong its frustrating sometimes and hard but in the end we have a far better life than we would at home i think you have to weigh up what it is in life you want as when you live here your happier with the simplier things in life but it has a tranisition period lol sorry about the spelling need my bed i hope ive helped a little.


:welcome:

yes, it can work & it's great to hear sucess stories - it sounds pretty much like your friend has done what I did - gradually built up a business into something viable over several years

I mostly teach spanish now, & move around to do it, although I do use a room in my house sometimes if the student prefers to come to me now & then - but my gestor has told me to keep this to 'occasional' because otherwise I'd need all sorts of expensive licences & insurances - which is the main reason I'm NOT converting the room to a proper school/classroom (I have to move the ironing board & piles of laundry out if a student wants to come to me ) - they don't make it easy, do they?


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## mrypg9

brocher said:


> It is odd - we spent a day in Estapona last July and it did seem very, very "dead" - indeed we watched a tramp on the beach for a while because we did actually think he was dead. Thankfully, a foot twiched after a few minutes - just sleeping!
> 
> Think it would have been the first Sunday in May this year, we had lunch on a beach in Estapona, and it was quite busy. We then headed up to town for ice cream and it was very, very busy.
> 
> I mentioned to my dd that someone had said on this forum that they had not seen Marbella so busy for years - she said several people have said the same thing to her.


I think Marbella is an exception. Looking out of our study window I can see empty streets - one car in the near distance. This is so different to the last two years....it's uncanny, almost like a plague had struck.

Maybe people who could afford a holiday decided to take it early in the season when prices are lower? As I said, this area caters 90% for Spanish families. 
If you have lost your job, are worried about keeping your job or have had a salary cut I guess a holiday is a luxury you have to think carefully about affording.

We went into Carrefour Estepona yesterday to buy a new dishwasher....we were in and out, washer chosen, paid for, in under ten minutes...No queues at the checkouts either and it was midday.


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## chica escocesa

Another severe weather warning for Scotland overnight. Honestly the only thing that keeps me going in this country is the thought that I might one day be able to leave!!


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## xabiaxica

chica escocesa said:


> Another severe weather warning for Scotland overnight. Honestly the only thing that keeps me going in this country is the thought that I might one day be able to leave!!


we have a severe weather warning for tomorrow too 

El Tiempo. Avisos meteorológicos - Mañana - Mapa - Agencia Estatal de Meteorología - AEMET. Gobierno de España


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## brocher

chica escocesa said:


> Another severe weather warning for Scotland overnight. Honestly the only thing that keeps me going in this country is the thought that I might one day be able to leave!!


Very hard to disagree with you there, it really is beyond a joke this year with no improvement in sight. 9' at night and mostly around 12' by day up here! Struggling not to put the heating on in the evenngs (well, giving in to the temptation sometimes!)

Did you see that report in the news? For the first two weeks of July, Hebrides had 50hrs of sunshine, Aberdeen had 8hrs and Edinburgh only 2hrs. And for all you lucky people out there in Spain, those are the figures for the entire two weeks, not daily figures!!

:rain::Cry:


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## brocher

xabiachica said:


> we have a severe weather warning for tomorrow too
> 
> El Tiempo. Avisos meteorológicos - Mañana - Mapa - Agencia Estatal de Meteorología - AEMET. Gobierno de España



Where's that dislike button. What I'd give to lie there in the heat like a beached whale instead of shivering here - more like a whale off Iceland!


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## mrypg9

chica escocesa said:


> Another severe weather warning for Scotland overnight. Honestly the only thing that keeps me going in this country is the thought that I might one day be able to leave!!


I know how you feel. We had intended to stay in Spain for a few years then on to France and finally back to Glasgow, to an apartment in the Merchant City. I went to Glasgow for a conference last April and it was freezing..icy blasts round every corner.

When I got back home I said I was staying put.


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## chica escocesa

Going in to Glasgow today for maternity clothes (bump starting to grow out of my jeans) in the pouring rain. It seems 15 degrees and dry is too much to ask for in July/August!


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## jojo

chica escocesa said:


> Going in to Glasgow today for maternity clothes (bump starting to grow out of my jeans) in the pouring rain. It seems 15 degrees and dry is too much to ask for in July/August!


even down here in the south of England its grey, trying to rain and definitely not warm 

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

chica escocesa said:


> Going in to Glasgow today for maternity clothes (bump starting to grow out of my jeans) in the pouring rain. It seems 15 degrees and dry is too much to ask for in July/August!



While you're there, why not have lunch at one of my favourite restaurants, Sarti Fratelli in West Nile Street?


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## chica escocesa

Will be going for dinner, may have a look. We usually go to the west end or merchant city for food. Actually we are more Edinburgh people but hubby has business in Glasgow this afternoon so we're using that as an excuse!


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## mrypg9

chica escocesa said:


> Will be going for dinner, may have a look. We usually go to the west end or merchant city for food. Actually we are more Edinburgh people but hubby has business in Glasgow this afternoon so we're using that as an excuse!


Don't know my Glasgow geography that well but I think West Nile Street is in the West End There's another good restaurant nearby, Boozy Rouge, does excellent steaks.

Sarti has a really authentic Italian atmosphere...

I love the Merchant City, looked at a few apartments there in April...but the weather is a definite no-no.

Shame because it really is 'no mean city'.


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