# Avoiding the Spanish rip-off



## expatrocks (Jan 16, 2012)

I love Spain, I really do. But man they like to rip you off here. What methods have you come up with for avoiding this?

My Spanish wife and I use only pre-paid cell phone and internet service (Movistar and Carrefour). It's technically more expensive and they still rip us off unashamedly but there are no bills so they can't steal any more than we have in our pre-paid accounts.

Has anyone been able to survive in Spain without a Spanish bank account? There is a thread in this forum that describes how the government here takes huge traffic fines directly out of people's accounts without any notification of why they are being fined. No thanks! I've read that it's difficult or impossible to pay household utilities without a bank account, but maybe we could rent places that include utilities or negotiate with the owners so that they'll pay the utilities.

Any other tips?


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

I've lived in Spain for 27 years and I've never once been ripped off. How are they unashamedly ripping you off via your cell phone and internet service? It sounds like you're ripping yourself off by knowingly paying more for prepaid. 

A few years ago my husband got a speeding fine, he went to tráfico and paid it, end of subject. If he _hadn't_ paid it, they would have taken the money from our bank account - because if you're a deadbeat and don't pay your fines you're ripping off the government. We've never had tráfico come and take money from our account for no reason. 

We've never had the electric company, or the water company, or the phone company, or _anybody_ take money from our account for no reason.

I don't mean to say that mistakes never happen because I'm sure they must.  But I don't think it's all that common. Nobody within our circle of friends or family has had problems with being ripped off like you're talking about. 

On the other hand, back in the States both my mother and my sister have had their credit cards used fraudulently, and a friend of mine had her identity stolen. Now THAT was a nightmare. 

I think you need to get over your negativity and accept the system here if this is where you're making your home.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

expatrocks said:


> I love Spain, I really do. But man they like to rip you off here. What methods have you come up with for avoiding this?
> 
> My Spanish wife and I use only pre-paid cell phone and internet service (Movistar and Carrefour). It's technically more expensive and they still rip us off unashamedly but there are no bills so they can't steal any more than we have in our pre-paid accounts.
> 
> ...


I have family who have lived here for 40 years and I have lived here for ten years. Never have we had problems like that. If you have a huge traffic fine, then that must have been a serious misdemeanour. If you pay within the the first two weeks they will reduce the fine by 50%.
I have always had a bank account in a Spain, and I will say this, I have a lot less problems in Spain than I ever had with a bank in the UK!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

same here -yes things like phones & internet are expensive compared to other countries - but at least you don't pay to *receive *a call as istr you do in the US on a mobile

& as the others have said - the govt depts will only take money out if you owe it & other avenues of recovery have been exhausted

yes, maybe companies will make mistakes sometimes - but that will happen anywhere in the world

I'm not sure if anywhere else in the world you can go into your bank within a certain time of money being erroneously taken & the bank will recover it there & then, though - as they do here in Spain


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

We've been "ripped off" twice in five years, once by two guys pretending to be from the gas company and demanding cash up front to fit a new flue (they never came back), and once by a British expat who made a hash of fitting our TV aerial.

As XC says, taking money from your bank account is very much the last resort and totally avoidable if you pay what you owe on time.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

PS there is an free email alert service which will send you a message should you pick up a traffic fine. This is useful if you don't have a fixed address, as you can pay straight away and get the 50% discount.

http://miratusmultas.com/buscarmultas/

"Matricula" is your car registration number.


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## expatrocks (Jan 16, 2012)

You guys are funny. You know I'm not talking about criminals, right?

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...iving-spain/182273-dealing-orange-mobile.html

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/127813-bandits.html



> I think you need to get over your negativity and accept the system here if this is where you're making your home.


What negativity? I said I love Spain. But that doesn't mean I'll bury my head in the sand. How many hits on Google for "Éste es un país de chorizos"?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

> I love Spain, I really do. But man they like to rip you off here.


You don't think that's negative then?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I got ripped off in New York City. I got ripped off many times in Prague. I've been ripped off in Spain by Brits and South Americans. 

When you decide to live in a country, you accept it warts and all. I don't find that many 'warts' in Spain but as in any other country you will find plenty of people all too ready and willing to take advantage of the naive and inexperienced.

For me, the very many pluses of life here outweigh the few -very few - minuses. Very often, when looking at some new kitchen appliance or piece of IT kit here I note that the price is considerably cheaper in the UK. But what price tranquility, good weather, an easy lifestyle and kind, warm people?

But to consider going back to live in the UK or posting negativity about Spain because I've had to pay a few euros more for a toaster or whatever ...no way Jose!


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## expatrocks (Jan 16, 2012)

> I love Spain, I really do. But man they like to rip you off here.





> You don't think that's negative then?


No!


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## expatrocks (Jan 16, 2012)

> I got ripped off in New York City. I got ripped off many times in Prague. I've been ripped off in Spain by Brits and South Americans.


I can't say for sure what you're talking about, but I want to say again that I'm not talking about criminals. I find Spain to be incredibly safe and free of crime actually.



> When you decide to live in a country, you accept it warts and all.


I completely disagree. In the name of progress, let's hope that attitude is held by a minority of the people here.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

If you move you have to be sure to notify tráfico of your change of address. If you don't, they won't have any way of notifying you should you get a fine. Because they DO send a notice - to the address of record. It's up to you to keep your address of record current. 

I have to agree that internet/mobile phone companies here have really lousy customer service. I've had a few problems with Orange along the way. But I don't think they set out to do wrong by their customers. They're probably understaffed and the staff undertrained. But is this unique to Spain? I spent hours dealing with problems with Virgin Mobile last summer, *in the States*.


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

expatrocks said:


> You guys are funny. You know I'm not talking about criminals, right?
> 
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...iving-spain/182273-dealing-orange-mobile.html
> 
> ...


I recall a forum in the UK that had as members, a section of Brit expats living in the USA, if you were to believe them, they all flew the stars and stripes and sang the American national anthem every night.

As I see things all that you are saying is that although you obey Spanish laws, you don't particularly agree with all of them, nothing wrong with that in my book.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

expatrocks said:


> .
> 
> 
> I completely disagree. In the name of progress, let's hope that attitude is held by a minority of the people here.


In the name of progress, we have created weapons that can destroy humanity. 
In the name of progress, we in the UK are about to spend £billions on a new High Speed train to shave twenty minutes off a journey from London to Birmingham.
In the name of progress we invade other countries and impose our 'progressive' ways on those left alive after their liberation.
In the name of progress, we run around like rats stressing ourselves to make a few more bucks.

In the name of sanity, enjoy Spain as it is, yes, warts and all, because the Spanish people themselves are quite capable of removing them, if they see the need to.

The concept of 'progress' is not always a benevolent one. Me, I prefer tranquility. I've lived through a lot of 'progress'and it doesn't seem to have increased the sum of human happiness that much.

And you chose the title 'rip off'....


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

kalohi said:


> If you move you have to be sure to notify tráfico of your change of address. If you don't, they won't have any way of notifying you should you get a fine. Because they DO send a notice - to the address of record. It's up to you to keep your address of record current.
> 
> I have to agree that internet/mobile phone companies here have really lousy customer service. I've had a few problems with Orange along the way. But I don't think they set out to do wrong by their customers. They're probably understaffed and the staff undertrained. But is this unique to Spain? I spent hours dealing with problems with Virgin Mobile last summer, *in the States*.



Trafico ONLY communicate with a permanent address. If, like many including Spaniards , you live in the campo & Correos will not deliver meaning that you have to take out a PO box, Trafico will not send info to one. Which means you'll either need the 'buscamultas' alert or read the BoE , weekly.

Orange is utter***** to deal with, even in the UK. I can't believe it would be any better here.
As a customer service woman explained to me here one day in 2008; " The mobile phone service & internet supply here in Spain is over-priced, breaks down repeatedly , has huge gaps in coverage, & all the companies treat the customers badly".
Having sat in a Guardia Civil office , passing the time of day for over 15 minutes while we awaited the return of the internet, fibre-optic by the way ; & being told that it happened at least 6-10 times per shift , there doesn't seem to be much improvement since then.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> For me, the very many pluses of life here outweigh the few -very few - minuses.


But that's not the point the OP is making is it? You're making a value judgement on where you would rather live weighing up all the pluses and minuses—what you can live with and what you can't. That's nothing to do with being 'ripped off'.

I define being 'ripped off' as paying good money and receiving an inferior service. I could name one of dozens of Spanish companies that do just that.

I still haven't got to the bottom of why my electricity bills vary every single month. Not one single month is the same despite the apartment only being occupied at most 6 weeks of the year. And for that, I'm paying on average €26 a month. €26 a month for an apartment only occupied 6 weeks of the year—what is using that much electricity? I pay on average £30 a month here in the UK for electricity and that's for a 3 bed house occupied all the time!

Even accepting that electricity is more expensive in Spain, there's something wrong somewhere and I can't figure out what it is. So I believe I'm being ripped off, but there's not much I can do about it apart from accept it or put my hard hat on and start trying to get some answers from endesa.

So I have some sympathy for what the OP is saying.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Using no electricity whatsoever my standing charge is 15,30€ per 2 months. That is for a 3kw supply. Bigger the supply , greater the charge.
A fridge & freezer will generate a bill of 26€/month, if left on.


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## djfwells (Sep 28, 2009)

I got a parking fine deducted from my Bank Account. Apparently I had parked my car in a Bus Lane in the Town and a fine was attached to car. I didn't pay the fine because I never got the paperwork (and I was in Hospital with my wife, who was giving birth at the alleged time of the infraction). The fine was deducted because I did not appeal in the given time, and I did not appeal because I was not aware of it.
Sometimes **** happens, get over it.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

zenkarma said:


> But that's not the point the OP is making is it? You're making a value judgement on where you would rather live weighing up all the pluses and minuses—what you can live with and what you can't.
> 
> .


Definimg something as a 'ripoff' is always a value judgment. An example: I saw a pair of shoes in Cortes Ingles, price €299. No way would I consider a pair of sandals composed chiefly of feathers and glitter for that price anything but a ripoff. But OH would have bought them and not thought the price excessive.

The OP gave his thread a title which is itself a value judgment. I and it seems others disagree. Yes, some items are more expensive than in the US or the UK or perhaps many other countries. But if you take the trouble to look deeper you may find reasons, sometimes valid reasons, why some items are more expensive or service is poorer in some countries. Not all of these factors are under the control of the industry or country involved.

I've been taken aback by high prices , poor service and general lack of vfm in many countries. One major reason why we left the Czech Republic.


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

Eric Pickles is hopeful of getting a bill through parliament banning local authorities from issuing parking fines based on CCTV evidence. I can just imagine a control room staffed by a load of spotty 19 year olds making a game out of their jobs. A shout will go out when one spotty nabs an eight second parking infraction in respect of a master criminal posting a letter.

Let us hope that it spreads to HMRC, in respect of them purposely date stamping in urgent documentation a day late. If something is wrong, believe it or believe it not, it is also wrong in Spain, honestly it really is.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

expatrocks said:


> I love Spain, I really do. But man they like to rip you off here. What methods have you come up with for avoiding this?
> 
> My Spanish wife and I use only pre-paid cell phone and internet service (Movistar and Carrefour). It's technically more expensive and they still rip us off unashamedly but there are no bills so they can't steal any more than we have in our pre-paid accounts.
> 
> ...


Have reread this and can't see why you think your prepaid cellphone is a ripoff. It seems that you find it more expensive than in the US. Well, I can tell you you'd pay more in the Czech Republic or Poland, to name only two countries. Why use the word 'steal'? So your main complaint is the cost of cellphone calls....

You could survive without a Spanish bank account by opening an offshore euro account or a euro account with a US bank..Mine was with a Canadian bank. You need only €100 to open most offshore accounts. Then your money will be safe.

Mind you, I closed my euro account with my offshore bank not because of any ripoff but because of their incompetence and not even a couple of hundred euros compensation stopped me transferring my euros to my very efficient Spanish bank.

As for multas.... I prudently check regularly using the site Alcalaina thoughtfully provided. It takes two minutes...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

I'm with mrypg9 on this. It's the use of the phrase "rip off" that cause bells to ring.
If you're saying that there are companies and organizations that abuse their power or take advantage of their clients, yes that happens. You have to be on the look out and read small print, but IMO just as you would have to anywhere.
If you're saying that the people in supermarkets in tourists area give you the wrong change, of course it happens, but it's not a national past time. 
But the fact that XYZ is cheaper, or better or done differently in the UK/ USA is not really here or there because this is Spain. It might take some getting used to but sometimes things here are just different and that doesn't make it a rip off - necessarily.


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

In respect of this forum, it just depends on who is calling who what, some being never wrong whilst others are never right.


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## expatrocks (Jan 16, 2012)

I should have defined what I mean by "rip-off".

I'm not talking about any sort of criminal activity. Spain has been incredibly crime-free in my experience. I'm not talking high prices. If you don't like the price you shouldn't buy it. I'm talking about the other stuff.

Examples:

1. Three days ago I tried to withdraw about $500 from an ATM. The transaction was declined and a receipt printed confirming this (in English). That night I happened to check my bank account online and the money had been withdrawn from my account! I called my bank (Chase) and they put the money back into my account and opened an investigation. I've been using ATMs my entire adult life in about 30 different countries and that has never happened before. That's a rip-off.

2. The Carrefour cell phone carrier advertises a certain rate for all calls within Spain. They don't tell you that certain numbers happen to be charged at 10 times that rate, including Carrefour's own customer service number! This is absolutely not in the fine print. I checked. When I called Carrefour I was told it isn't in the fine print because "everybody knows that". That's a rip-off.

3. Although this has never happened to me, taking a fine, late fees, and interest out of someone's bank account without ensuring that they were notified of the fine to begin with is a rip-off.

Companies and government agencies in Spain does this kind of stuff a lot. But don't take it from me.

"Éste es un país de chorizos" or "This is a country of cheaters":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9hrzylIqA8

Check out the look on that lady's face sitting next to him. Does she get it?

P.S. I love Spain. That doesn't mean it's perfect and that doesn't mean I have to keep my mouth shut about its imperfections.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I'm with mrypg9 on this. It's the use of the phrase "rip off" that cause bells to ring.
> If you're saying that there are companies and organizations that abuse their power or take advantage of their clients, yes that happens. You have to be on the look out and read small print, but IMO just as you would have to anywhere.
> If you're saying that the people in supermarkets in tourists area give you the wrong change, of course it happens, but it's not a national past time.
> But the fact that XYZ is cheaper, or better or done differently in the UK/ USA is not really here or there because this is Spain. It might take some getting used to but sometimes things here are just different and that doesn't make it a rip off - necessarily.


I experienced a small but enlightening aspect of how things are here and how others perceive things last week when my son and I went to collect various items from several places for our Spanish Night. 
My son, who works via his mobile and tablet even whilst on holiday is used to everything being done in what he would regard as an efficient, time-saving and business-like manner. So when at each place we had to pick up stuff I engaged in five minutes or more of polite conversational exchange with the people who were lending the stuff he began to fret and fuss. 
I chatted with the nice lady who lent us the enormous paella pan and complimented her on her garden so she gave us a guided tour. Then I chatted with the nice lady in charge of the local Alzheimers Society who lent us the tables. Much looking at watch from son. Then I exchanged chat about the politics of Estepona with the people at the Plataforma who lent us the sound system.

Rob said, quite reasonably by the norms of his highly-pressurised working life, that it was no wonder that Spain was on its uppers if every transaction was carried on like this. Trying to sooth him we went to a cafe I like...to find it was closed for siesta. Cue more 'No wonder..'etc. etc.

Well, I suppose I can see his point. It is frustrating sometimes when you're in a hurry and you hsve to chat to the person at the Town Hall about their son/daughter/granny/pet cat etc. But what is lost on the one hand is in my opinion less valuable than what is gained on the other. A friend was quite shocked to see Rob sitting with a beer talking on his mobile to someone in the City about a work issue - and billing for the time spent - whilst supposedly on holiday.

Well, it's horses for courses, as the saying goes. My son and dil have had property here for fifteen years but come usually for weekend breaks and tbh know little of Spain beyond their favourite mainly Brit-clientele restaurants. Nothing wrong with that.
But I thought it was an interesting if minor vignette of a culture clash and it occurred to me that, whilst in no way wanting to be a 'plastic Spaniard', I was in some ways quietly 'going native'.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

expatrocks said:


> I should have defined what I mean by "rip-off".
> 
> I'm not talking about any sort of criminal activity. Spain has been incredibly crime-free in my experience. I'm not talking high prices. If you don't like the price you shouldn't buy it. I'm talking about the other stuff.
> 
> ...


What you describe in Point One happened to me when I arrived in Spain. Culprit: my offshore bank. Nothing to do with Spain.

Point Two: yes, it's daylight robbery. I agree. But it's common practice in very many countries. I'm not sure how but I knew that about Carrefour. Must have read it somewhere....maybe from someone like you complaining!

Point Three: I agree it's an odd way of going about things. But hey, it affects more Spaniards than immigrants and if the natives feel so outraged by this kind of grab, it's up to them to pressure for change. Maybe like many of us they just make regular checks on that buscamultas site.

For anyone not Spanish to describe Spain as a 'country of cheaters' would imo be very OTT. I felt that there were many things I didn't like about the Czech Republic but Czechs I discussed them with didn't seem fazed. So we moved rather than stay and be unhappy

As for 'a nation of cheaters' - let's think about some of the more accurate descriptions that unfriendly people might apply to your country and mine, the UK.....
Illegal invaders of sovereign states, imposing our own mores and customs on other cultures, using our soft and hard power to pressurise weaker states to our advantage, commercial exploitation of developing nations by US and UK controlled global corporations....

I would respectfully submit the thesis that these might be more serious instances of abuse than glitches at the bank or higher than expected charges for cellphone calls.

I find a lot of things in Spain frustrating and unlike the life I had in the UK before I left nearly ten years ago too. But 'nation of cheaters'.....that's a bit too strong.


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## expatrocks (Jan 16, 2012)

> But hey, it affects more Spaniards than immigrants and if the natives feel so outraged by this kind of grab, it's up to them to pressure for change.


In my opinion, it's up to anyone affected by it.



> As for 'a nation of cheaters' - let's think about some of the more accurate descriptions that unfriendly people might apply to your country and mine, the UK.....
> Illegal invaders of sovereign states, imposing our own mores and customs on other cultures, using our soft and hard power to pressurise weaker states to our advantage, commercial exploitation of developing nations by US and UK controlled global corporations....
> 
> I would respectfully submit the thesis that these might be more serious instances of abuse than glitches at the bank or higher than expected charges for cellphone calls.


Sure, but mrypg9, this thread isn't about which country is better or worse. It's about avoiding Spanish rip-offs.

By the way, thank you for your idea about getting a bank account in Euros outside of Spain. Does anyone know if I could use an account like that to pay rent or utilities?


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Beware of offshore accounts if you're required to file an FBAR with the US Treasury Department. They set off red flags.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

expatrocks said:


> In my opinion, it's up to anyone affected by it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, you can use it for any purpose as you would any account. There is a mistaken belief that offshore accounts are for crooks or the mega-rich....nonsense. 
I opened my offshore account because I got fed up with the exorbitant bank charges of Czech banks who charged 20 euros equivalent for each £ sterling cheque I paid in...even if the cheque was for less than 20 euros!!
I chose an offshore bank of a UK bank so maybe there's a similar U.S. offshore bank you can use?
You'll get a cash card so you can withdraw euros in Spain but I keep most of my £ in my offshore account and change only enough euros to go into my Spanish account to cover living expenses for a few months so there's never that much in my Spanish accounts for anyone to grab!

I think I could agree with you if instead of words like 'cheat' or 'ripoff' we could use terms like 'appalling inefficiencies' 'seemingly unjustifiable charges' and 'customer service that often falls short of what one should reasonably expect'


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## expatrocks (Jan 16, 2012)

> Beware of offshore accounts if you're required to file an FBAR with the US Treasury Department. They set off red flags.


I'm not sure why it would need to be offshore really. The goal is to have a Euro bank account that the Spanish government can't pilfer that I can still use for times when it's required. Would an account in any other Euro country work for that?

But I don't think an FBAR is required as long as I keep less than $10K USD in it.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

kalohi said:


> Beware of offshore accounts if you're required to file an FBAR with the US Treasury Department. They set off red flags.


My offshore account regularly deducts any UK tax due to HMRC. There must be a US offshore bank which is 100% legitimate and reports similarly to IRC?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

expatrocks said:


> I'm not sure why it would need to be offshore really. The goal is to have a Euro bank account that the Spanish government can't pilfer that I can still use for times when it's required. Would an account in any other Euro country work for that?
> 
> But I don't think an FBAR is required as long as I keep less than $10K USD in it.


No, you need to show that you are resident in a country where you wish to open an account which you don't need to to open an offshore account. I had to submit the usual passport, proof of current address, bank statements for the previous six months and proof of origin of income, I suppose to show I wasn't money-laundering or an international drug smuggler...although I think folk of that type normally have a much bigger income than I had and have.

I had bank accounts in four countries at one time which made life complicated and involved a lot of extra work managing my accounts. I had an account in the UK as I had lived there before moving, an account in Canada as we had property there, an account in the Czech Republic as we were living there and I worked there and then in Spain.
The offshore account plus the Spanish current account made life easier and was much cheaper to run!


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## expatrocks (Jan 16, 2012)

> you need to show that you are resident in a country where you wish to open an account


Can anyone verify this is true in all Euro countries? I opened an Australian checking account without being a resident there.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

expatrocks said:


> I should have defined what I mean by "rip-off".
> 
> I'm not talking about any sort of criminal activity. Spain has been incredibly crime-free in my experience. I'm not talking high prices. If you don't like the price you shouldn't buy it. I'm talking about the other stuff.
> 
> ...


1. Has happened to me twice in Spain in Caja Madrid aka Bankia, the last being just a few weeks ago. The problem both times was that half way through the operation the computer ran a check, the operation didn't get finished, but the money showed up as being withdrawn. It was a right pita because our account is actually in another bank so we had to claim it back from Visa. In the end our bank has paid the money into the account, but pending the reply from Visa. On another occasion my bank card was swallowed up by the machine for the same reason. That to me is bad service from a bank, not a rip off. Would it happen in another country? Irrelevant. I live, work, spend 99% of my time here.

2. The phone number thing is a whole overcharged service. Does everyone know that? Well, obviously not as you didn't, but actually most people who live here _do_ know that. It's one of those things that many people from other countries might expect a different service/ outcome/ price because things are done differently in their country of origin. Is it a rip off? I don't think so 'cos eveyone is treated the same so it's not as if you get a different deal to anyone else. Is it a poor service? Yes, of course it is! To avoid making expensive calls to 902 etc numbers use
Buscador - nmn900.com - No más números 900
Type in where you want to phone ie Carrefour atencion al cliente Valencia and something should come up

3.Again. not a rip off. Doing things in a different way 'cos it's not the UK, France Usa or Australia - yes. Here they are entitled to take something from your account to pay a bill. If it's not correct they'll pay you back, at their leisure. I don't think it's correct, but it's the way it goes here.

As for 


> P.S. I love Spain. That doesn't mean it's perfect and that doesn't mean I have to keep my mouth shut about its imperfections.


My sentiments exactly. However, thinking that everyone's out to get you and "rip you off" is no way to live either. Be aware, question and learn from errors that are made .
Hope you can enjoy Spain as she is


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

expatrocks said:


> Can anyone verify this is true in all Euro countries? I opened an Australian checking account without being a resident there.


Did you provide a verified Australian address?


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## titoalberto (Sep 28, 2013)

*Avoiding the Spanish tip-off*



expatrocks said:


> I love Spain, I really do. But man they like to rip you off here. What methods have you come up with for avoiding this?
> 
> My Spanish wife and I use only pre-paid cell phone and internet service (Movistar and Carrefour). It's technically more expensive and they still rip us off unashamedly but there are no bills so they can't steal any more than we have in our pre-paid accounts.
> 
> ...


I agree with you that the way they do things can be very strange. I was born and raised in a Latin country, but have lived many years in the Unuted Stated. I also dislike what you describe, they tend to complicate everything unnecessarily. You have to be extremelly alert in any transaction, no matter how small. I have my own theories about this behavior but I won't disciss it in the forum.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

expatrocks said:


> But I don't think an FBAR is required as long as I keep less than $10K USD in it.


Not exactly true. You have to file an FBAR if at any moment the _total _ balance across of all of your non-US accounts comes to more than $10K. 

From the instructions on the FBAR form:

Who Must File an FBAR.
A United States person that has a financial
interest in or signature authority over foreign financial accounts must file
an FBAR if the aggregate value of the foreign financial accounts
exceeds $10,000 at any time during the calendar year. See General
Definitions, to determine who is a United States person.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

kalohi said:


> I've lived in Spain for 27 years and I've never once been ripped off. How are they unashamedly ripping you off via your cell phone and internet service? It sounds like you're ripping yourself off by knowingly paying more for prepaid.
> 
> A few years ago my husband got a speeding fine, he went to tráfico and paid it, end of subject. If he _hadn't_ paid it, they would have taken the money from our bank account - because if you're a deadbeat and don't pay your fines you're ripping off the government. We've never had tráfico come and take money from our account for no reason.
> 
> ...


Same here - and in Real RIP-OFF (USA), you have a PAYG cell phone, you get charged even when somebody calls your number, either for a voice call or text. Put $10 on the phone and within 5 minutes it has all gone because as soon as you put the money on, a notification goes to all those telesales outfits who call your phone or send texts unsolicitedly. In every country there are Premium-rate numbers that you pay a premium rate to call just as there are free-phone numbers - everybody knows that and if* you* choose to call those premium numbers, it is *your* choice and *you* pay.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

titoalberto said:


> I agree with you that the way they do things can be very strange. I was born and raised in a Latin country, but have lived many years in the Unuted Stated. I also dislike what you describe, they tend to complicate everything unnecessarily. You have to be extremelly alert in any transaction, no matter how small. I have my own theories about this behavior but I won't disciss it in the forum.


When you say 'they' do you mean all Spanish people, most Spanish people, many Spanish people, a few Spanish people or just the one or two who pissed you off?


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

I was recently ripped off in the UK, I had just topped my phone up by £10.00 only to find that my credit had run out. I googled and ended up with the regulators number, the guy was great, he laughed and said "yes you have been tricked into accepting premium rate calls, just give me the number and I will sort it out", and sort it out he did, but I can't for the life of me recall giving someone the authority to nuke my phone credit.


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## expatrocks (Jan 16, 2012)

Sounds like I need to work on my "keep calm and carry on", eh guys?



> Did you provide a verified Australian address?


Nope, they put my US address on the account which is on my passport.


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## paradisecircus (Sep 28, 2013)

An insider opinion:

If your wife is spanish (and I presume she has a national identity card) open a bank account and don't drive yourself nuts. If you don't wanna deal with spanish banks for x or y reasons, you can either open a use, let's say, barclays or deutsche bank, or you can pay utility bills at the counter as most banks offer this service from 8.00 to 10.00 am on certain days of the week. I haven't seen a single place for rent which includes utility bills (some do include internet though) but yes, you can negotiate with the landlord, maybe leaving a deposit or any other option you can think of.

Traffic department do NOT take money from anyone's bank account, first time in my life i've read something like this. As another user said, they send a letter with the fine (this car x was found to surpass the allowed speed limit at the point y of the road z). This letter has a 2 parts, the bottom part saying the amount of the fine and the banks where you can make the payment. Take that paper to the bank, give them the money, they will give you your stamped paper back, you're done with it. If, as the user said (sorry not to remember your name), you pay the fine within 15 days, you'll get a 50% discount. 

Mobile companies are just a mess, no excuses on that. Best thing you can do is to make a contract with them and you will know every month exactly how much you're gonna pay. If you aren't happy with the service then file a complaint. Don't really know how far this will take you but at least you'll get some peace of mind. 

is it a country of cheaters? Well, I guess that depends on your personal background and point of view. is it like the us? of course not, nor it needs to be. hope you will find your way through it and if not, the world is a huge place. good luck!


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

I never supplied anything here to open an account, albeit non-resident. just passport & money. 
when I did become resident they just photocopied the tarjeta & changed everything without me doing anything.


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## expatrocks (Jan 16, 2012)

paradisecircus, thank you for your extremely helpful and on-topic reply. In response to what you said here:



> Traffic department do NOT take money from anyone's bank account, first time in my life i've read something like this.


I will point to this: http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/127813-bandits.html

It was hard for me to believe too.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

paradisecircus said:


> Traffic department do NOT take money from anyone's bank account, first time in my life i've read something like this. As another user said, they send a letter with the fine (this car x was found to surpass the allowed speed limit at the point y of the road z). This letter has a 2 parts, the bottom part saying the amount of the fine and the banks where you can make the payment. Take that paper to the bank, give them the money, they will give you your stamped paper back, you're done with it. If, as the user said (sorry not to remember your name), you pay the fine within 15 days, you'll get a 50% discount.


The traffic department do not _usually_ take money from your account, but they can and will, if a fine goes unpaid. They have to have gone through all the steps like notify the driver, give the driver xxxdays to pay etc, but if for any reason this is ignored they will take the money, plus some, and/ or freeze your account.
Please note, notifying the owner may just be a case of publishing this in the BOE. It's the drivers responsibility to look and see if any fines are pending.
Is that the right way to go about things? Perhaps not, but that's what happens here in Spain, so if you live here and drive here you should be aware of the system that's in place.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

The easiest way to stop worrying about police taking money out of your account is not to get a ticket.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Aron said:


> The easiest way to stop worrying about police taking money out of your account is not to get a ticket.


Totally agree!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Aron said:


> The easiest way to stop worrying about police taking money out of your account is not to get a ticket.


However, the problem as I see it is when you are fined, money is taken out and you contest the fine, which does happen also...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

expatrocks said:


> Sounds like I need to work on my "keep calm and carry on", eh guys?
> 
> 
> Nope, they put my US address on the account which is on my passport.


Your address is on your passport?


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

Aron said:


> The easiest way to stop worrying about police taking money out of your account is not to get a ticket.


I tripped quite badly whilst out walking in the Peak Park the other day, I didn't mean to do so, had I been given the choice to either trip or not, I would have chosen the latter, but then again I'm not perfect, unlike some.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

crookesey said:


> I tripped quite badly whilst out walking in the Peak Park the other day, I didn't mean to do so, had I been given the choice to either trip or not, I would have chosen the latter, but then again I'm not perfect, unlike some.


I'm not perfect, but in 52 years of driving I have received one ticket. My wife has driven for 46 years and received just one ticket. It's not about perfection, it's about being careful. We were stopped when my wife was driving by the Guadia Civil and got a €71 fine for having our front foglights on. Okay, we made a mistake, it happens. We took the denuncia to the bank the next day and paid the fine.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Aron said:


> The easiest way to stop worrying about police taking money out of your account is not to get a ticket.


You obviously, like me , live in an area where they are polite & half sensible. Many other places like Almeria,immediately bordering Murcia , it is like the wild-west. Anything goes. 
Or you could explain it to the Jersey resident who got stopped for a routine check on the way to his holiday home in Valencia. 
They checked his documents & asked "Where is your mot ?" 
"We do not have mot's in Jersey "
"Rubbish, it is part of the UK & they have mot's" " Here is a ticket for no mot " 100€ fine.
More or less accused him of lying.
The bloke is spitting feathers & it's going all the way to the EU, even if they rescind it & apologise.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Aron said:


> The easiest way to stop worrying about police taking money out of your account is not to get a ticket.


Obviously, but it's not always that easy.

A friend of ours was fined for starting her car and then putting her seat belt on. Difficult to avoid wanton profiteering like that...


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

gus-lopez said:


> You obviously, like me , live in an area where they are polite & half sensible. Many other places like Almeria,immediately bordering Murcia , it is like the wild-west. Anything goes.
> Or you could explain it to the Jersey resident who got stopped for a routine check on the way to his holiday home in Valencia.
> They checked his documents & asked "Where is your mot ?"
> "We do not have mot's in Jersey "
> ...


We drive all over Spain, occasionally we drive to Italy and every year we drive to the UK. We never have any problems. France has always been particularly bad concerning being stopped by the police, but so far we have had no problems. 
I must admit, I never knew that about Jersey. If anyone had asked me prior to your comment I would probably have said, being part of the UK they would need testing. You learn something every day!


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

jimenato said:


> Obviously, but it's not always that easy.
> 
> A friend of ours was fined for starting her car and then putting her seat belt on. Difficult to avoid wanton profiteering like that...


Well, many have had tickets in the UK for that. I know, my neighbour is a policeman.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

We seem to have learnt from all this that in every country foreigners -and natives - will come up against strange and confusing customs and arrangements, that you really shouldn't tar a whole country as being full of cheats, that every country including the UK has its unlucky people and its share of idiots and jobsworths, as well as a handful of people of good luck and good sense.
Lawd knows we have our fair share of crooks, cheats and idiots in the UK. Some turn up here in Spain although fewer than previously.

One thing I did find irritating about Spanish banking practices is how Banco Sabadell at least deals with hacked accounts. OH had 1500 euros removed from her account after buying a new mobile online from Carrefour. The money had been used for online gambling. She did eventually get her money back but after a wait of a coupe of months whereas in the UK it would have been seen for what it was, a case of theft and the money returned instantly or almost. 
Fortunately she was able to live without it but what would have happened had she been unemployed with bills to pay and a family to feed?
This incident was irritating and not a catastrophe and whilst annoying it didn't lead us to believe all Spaniards are cheats, crooks, swindlers and so on.
It just taught us to use PayPal in future for transactions involving larger sums.
If you have any senseyou learn from life's little mishaps.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Aron said:


> Well, many have had tickets in the UK for that. I know, my neighbour is a policeman.


That doesn't surprise me. 

They let literally hundreds of people off the much worse 'crime' of not belting their kids in. If they were interested in road safety they could stand outside the primary school just down the road and fine every single one of the mums for carrying 5 or 6 children none of whom are strapped in. 

Instead they choose to fine one middle aged lady for something trivial. 

You can be as careful as you like - they will find something wrong of they want to.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Aron said:


> I'm not perfect, but in 52 years of driving I have received one ticket. My wife has driven for 46 years and received just one ticket. It's not about perfection, it's about being careful. We were stopped when my wife was driving by the Guadia Civil and got a €71 fine for having our front foglights on. Okay, we made a mistake, it happens. We took the denuncia to the bank the next day and paid the fine.


Quite. Perfection has nothing to do with it...and I should know.

I've had a few tickets in almost as many years of driving as you. I've always driven fast, sporty cars and tend to get carried away so each time it's been mea culpa.

As you say, it's about being careful and I wasn't. I paid up without complaint.

I've been stopped twice by the police here, once by the local police for parking where I shouldn't have and once by Trafico for driving without lights - I'd just left the brightly-lit Carrefour carpark and simply forgot to switch on. In both cases my offence was politely pointed out and I was allowed to proceed. No fine. The first time I was driving my LHD but UK plated Merc too and in that case I was asked to produce neither driving licence or insurance documents and Trafico asked only to see my licence. The Merc had Road Tax but no MOT as it was a few months old but I wasn't asked about it.

One thing I'd like to ask: just what are you required by law to have in your vehicle? I know about the triangle and jackets but should I have a medical kit and set of spare bulbs as is the law in the Czech Republic and Germany? I had these things in the Merc together with a toolkit that wouuldn't have been out of place in a small workshop but they went off with it when I sold it and I didn't replace them.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> That doesn't surprise me.
> 
> 
> 
> You can be as careful as you like - they will find something wrong of they want to.


Obviously it pays to be a sweet little old lady..


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

jimenato said:


> That doesn't surprise me.
> 
> They let literally hundreds of people off the much worse 'crime' of not belting their kids in. If they were interested in road safety they could stand outside the primary school just down the road and fine every single one of the mums for carrying 5 or 6 children none of whom are strapped in.
> 
> ...


Doesn't matter which country you live in, the police can never do anything right!


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Obviously it pays to be a sweet little old lady..


I wouldn't know - I don't know any


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Aron said:


> Doesn't matter which country you live in, the police can never do anything right!


I've got no complaints about Spanish or British police although I have several justified ones about Czech police.

When we were burgled the police response couldn't be faulted. As far as I know they haven't apprehended those responsible -although they might well have done - but both the Nation POlice and the Scene of Crime Team were sympathetic, reassuring and confidence-inspiring.
We've seen an enormous increase in the number of police patrols and armed roadblocks in this area too.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> I've got no complaints about Spanish or British police although I have several justified ones about Czech police.
> 
> When we were burgled the police response couldn't be faulted. As far as I know they haven't apprehended those responsible -although they might well have done - but both the Nation POlice and the Scene of Crime Team were sympathetic, reassuring and confidence-inspiring.
> We've seen an enormous increase in the number of police patrols and armed roadblocks in this area too.


I see the police on patrol every morning when I'm out walking. Sometimes they say hola, other times they don't. I've never had a problem with the police anywhere I go, but I hear about it many times from other people. I guess it's more about perception than anything else!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> One thing I'd like to ask: just what are you required by law to have in your vehicle? I know about the triangle and jackets but should I have a medical kit and set of spare bulbs as is the law in the Czech Republic and Germany? I had these things in the Merc together with a toolkit that wouuldn't have been out of place in a small workshop but they went off with it when I sold it and I didn't replace them.


All of those, plus a spare pair of glasses if you need them for driving.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> All of those, plus a spare pair of glasses if you need them for driving.


Actually, no, that isn't correct - or at least according to these articles
Cómo son los documentos que hay que llevar en el automóvil - Educación vial - Motor - Practicopedia.com


> Cuando salgas a conducir con tu automóvil (coche, moto o cualquier otro tipo de vehículo a motor), hay tres documentos que obligatoriamente debes llevar contigo:
> -El carné de conducir.
> -El resguardo del último pago del impuesto de circulación.
> -La ficha de inspección técnica del vehículo.
> Si circulas sin alguno de estos tres documentos te expones a ser sancionado por la policía.


Qué debo llevar en el coche - Coches -
No insurance paper and no glasses - it's changed


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> All of those, plus a spare pair of glasses if you need them for driving.


Are hire cars exempt then? I suppose that I could take 4 or 5 fluorescent vests with me, however as I never actually know what make or model of car I am going to pick up, so a full set of bulbs would be a little difficult, the only thing on the list that will be in the car is the triangle. The spare set of glasses is stupidity at it's very best, as is carrying original documents when you are wearing t shirt and shorts.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

crookesey said:


> Are hire cars exempt then? I suppose that I could take 4 or 5 fluorescent vests with me, however as I never actually know what make or model of car I am going to pick up, so a full set of bulbs would be a little difficult, the only thing on the list that will be in the car is the triangle. The spare set of glasses is stupidity at it's very best, as is carrying original documents when you are wearing t shirt and shorts.


Hire cars are not exempt, you should be supplied with everything necessary to comply with the law. Fluorescent vests must be worn if you breakdown, the hire companies know that.


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

Aron said:


> Hire cars are not exempt, you should be supplied with everything necessary to comply with the law. Fluorescent vests must be worn if you breakdown, the hire companies know that.


So I get a puncture just as I drive out of the airport, no vests, no spare bulbs, so who is culpable? I know it's me, it has to be, I'll check my UK annual overseas insurance excess policy in respect of fines when it is clearly the hire firms fault, as I've said previously, "it's all in the schedule".


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

crookesey said:


> So I get a puncture just as I drive out of the airport, no vests, no spare bulbs, so who is culpable? I know it's me, it has to be, I'll check my UK annual overseas insurance excess policy in respect of fines when it is clearly the hire firms fault, as I've said previously, "it's all in the schedule".



Never had a problem personally!


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

Aron said:


> Never had a problem personally!


I've never had vests and spare bulbs supplied by any hire car firm, I must have used at least a couple of dozen leading hire car firms over the years, perhaps you could let us know which firms fully comply with the law.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

crookesey said:


> Are hire cars exempt then? I suppose that I could take 4 or 5 fluorescent vests with me, however as I never actually know what make or model of car I am going to pick up, so a full set of bulbs would be a little difficult, the only thing on the list that will be in the car is the triangle. The spare set of glasses is stupidity at it's very best, as is carrying original documents when you are wearing t shirt and shorts.


But you don't need bulbs, nor do you need spare glasses. You used to, but not now. (Look at previous posts). In any case can you imagine telling a police officer in any country that you haven't got something with you because you're only wearing shorts and a t shirt? If you're driving, we can presume that you've got hands...
IMO a spare set of glasses was a really good idea. I certainly wouldn't drive at night without mine


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

crookesey said:


> I've never had vests and spare bulbs supplied by any hire car firm, I must have used at least a couple of dozen leading hire car firms over the years, perhaps you could let us know which firms fully comply with the law.


Try Hertz

Furthermore, when you book you should ask that question to anyone you book with if you are worried.


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

Aron said:


> Try Hertz
> 
> Furthermore, when you book you should ask that question to anyone you book with if you are worried.


On-line booking doesn't include the luxury of conversation, by the way take care when you return a hire car, the scroats took my rear wiper unit off and charged me for it (I know it was there when we drove in), no worries my UK excess annual policy costing £40.00 reimbursed me, the Spanish firms don't like it when you don't take their €45.00 per booking rip-off policy.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

crookesey said:


> On-line booking doesn't include the luxury of conversation, by the way take care when you return a hire car, the scroats took my rear wiper unit off and charged me for it (I know it was there when we drove in), no worries my UK excess annual policy costing £40.00 reimbursed me, the Spanish firms don't like it when you don't take their €45.00 per booking rip-off policy.


My family come out to Spain regularly and have annual excess insurance in the UK. They have not encountered any problem with Spanish firms whatsoever. I have friends coming to stay nearby us this week. They too have the same type of policy. They have never encountered problems. 
You know, if I was you I'd go to France from now on!


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

Aron said:


> My family come out to Spain regularly and have annual excess insurance in the UK. They have not encountered any problem with Spanish firms whatsoever. I have friends coming to stay nearby us this week. They too have the same type of policy. They have never encountered problems.
> You know, if I was you I'd go to France from now on!


If I were you I'd be very sad, but I'm not, so have no problem with being me, thanks for your advice though, do you have a particular recommendation?


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

crookesey said:


> If I were you I'd be very sad, but I'm not, so have no problem with being me, thanks for your advice though, do you have a particular recommendation?


Yes, relax and enjoy this beautiful country and what it has to offer!


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Friend of mine lets out an apartment attached to his house & of all the people using it 80% of there hire cars have no vests or triangles. We even had one new peugeot 1007, the one with electric sliding doors that the bloke managed to rip one off , lol, which had no vests, triangles, registration papers, permiso, nothing whatsoever. All he had was the hire receipt.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

gus-lopez said:


> Friend of mine lets out an apartment attached to his house & of all the people using it 80% of there hire cars have no vests or triangles. We even had one new peugeot 1007, the one with electric sliding doors that the bloke managed to rip one off , lol, which had no vests, triangles, registration papers, permiso, nothing whatsoever. All he had was the hire receipt.


I refuse to accept the car unless it is properly equipped and legal. They always manage to find the bits that are missing, when they are pushed, but make sure they sign a receipt for them when you bring them back to avoid being charged for them later.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

crookesey said:


> I've never had vests and spare bulbs supplied by any hire car firm, I must have used at least a couple of dozen leading hire car firms over the years, perhaps you could let us know which firms fully comply with the law.


Firefly car hire Madrid - We hired a car a few weeks ago and all the quoted above were in the glove compartment, plus a triangle in the boot etc. So there is one for you, the one we used at Malaga airport back in February was the same - cannot remember the name, so that's 2 for you


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

cambio said:


> Firefly car hire Madrid - We hired a car a few weeks ago and all the quoted above were in the glove compartment, plus a triangle in the boot etc. So there is one for you, the one we used at Malaga airport back in February was the same - cannot remember the name, so that's 2 for you


But the law is 2 triangles.


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## paradisecircus (Sep 28, 2013)

(Can't reply with quote so far, sorry)

Regarding the bandits post:

After reading it, I still can't believe this police stuff. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's not true, just that can't believe it. I don't know a single person with such situation, it seems they were trying to run away from the police :bolt:

Anyway, good luck, we all face similar struggles when moving to another country, it's part of the "expat life charm"


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## expatrocks (Jan 16, 2012)

> by the way take care when you return a hire car, the scroats took my rear wiper unit off and charged me for it (I know it was there when we drove in)


Rip-off alert!  Which company did that?



> You know, if I was you I'd go to France from now on!


That's just mean.



> After reading it, I still can't believe this police stuff. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's not true, just that can't believe it.


I agree it's unbelievable.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

You can find fault and moan and whinge or detect ripoffs in any country in the world. Spain is obviously no exception.
Foreigners often complain that the UK is the world ripoff capital.
The old adage caveat emptor applies still.
I too have hired cars all over the world with not one problem
Some people enter into transactions without due diligence.
As for the back wiper story...the sensible procedure is to stand by the vehicle and check for damages with the company rep before letting the car out of your sight, isn't it?
These alleged ripoffs are not typical of or confined to Spain.


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## expatrocks (Jan 16, 2012)

> You can find fault and moan and whinge or detect ripoffs in any country in the world.


This thread is about avoiding them in Spain.



> As for the back wiper story...the sensible procedure is to stand by the vehicle and check for damages with the company rep before letting the car out of your sight, isn't it?


There is always an obvious way to avoid a rip-off *after* the fact.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

expatrocks said:


> This thread is about avoiding them in Spain.
> *
> The title of your thread gives the impression that this is a problem of huge dimensions and a problem looming large for immigrants in Spain. It isn't, as other posters have pointed out. The specific 'ripoffs' you mentioned were, if I remember and I'm not going back over the nine pages of this thread were related to high cellphone charges which everyone moans about in every country on earth and a fear of what might happen to you, i.e. your bank account being sequestered for a fine of which you had no prior warning. That's been dealt with too. I honestly don't think that these complaints justify the title.*
> 
> There is always an obvious way to avoid a rip-off *after* the fact.


*
There is almost always an obvious way not to get ripped off at all before any 'fact', especially in connection with returning hire cars and I suggested how. That's what I always do...inspect the vehicle with agent before taking it and reading carefully the 'damage' sheet then doing the same on returning the car which I never let out of my sight before said inspection. Not rocket science, just common sense.
Reading terms and conditions carefuly helps too.

There will always be, in any country in the world, unscrupulous people out to con the naive, the inexperienced and the gullible. This doesn't happen only in Spain...Eastern Europe is a real ripoff area. Having lived in the Czech Republic for several years and spent time in Poland and the former Soviet Union I could write a book about REAL ripoffs...

So if your title were 'Prague: ripoff capital of Central Europe' or Moscow: 'conmen's paradise'...I'd have more understanding and sympathy.

But Spain...no.*


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> REAL ripoffs... ?
> 
> But Spain...no


As I keep pointing out - in general terms you are more likely to get ripped off by a Brit than you are by a Spaniard. The Brit can up-sticks and be away with *your* money to anywhere else in the world, but the Spaniard may well have his home, family and other ties in the the area which make it much more difficult for him to leave town. 

Unfortunately the recently arrived and other gullible expat who hasn't bothered to learn the basics of Spanish will so often fall right into the hands of the unscrupulous Brit simply because he speaks the same language.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

gus-lopez said:


> Friend of mine lets out an apartment attached to his house & of all the people using it 80% of there hire cars have no vests or triangles. We even had one new peugeot 1007, the one with electric sliding doors that the bloke managed to rip one off , lol, which had no vests, triangles, registration papers, permiso, nothing whatsoever. All he had was the hire receipt.


I would suggest 80% don't bother to look or know about vests or triangles, I certainly didn't until we came to live in Spain. 

I have my best pal flying into Malaga tomorrow. I have asked him to check to see if he has the required items in his hire car to comply with the law. I shall update this forum later in the week on the outcome.


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## expatrocks (Jan 16, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> There will always be, in any country in the world, unscrupulous people out to con the naive, the inexperienced and the gullible.





baldilocks said:


> As I keep pointing out - in general terms you are more likely to get ripped off by a Brit than you are by a Spaniard. The Brit can up-sticks and be away with your money to anywhere else in the world, but the Spaniard may well have his home, family and other ties in the the area which make it much more difficult for him to leave town.


As I keep pointing out:



expatrocks said:


> I'm not talking about any sort of criminal activity. Spain has been incredibly crime-free in my experience.


Suggestion:

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=2


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

expatrocks said:


> As I keep pointing out:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do we really need a new thread? Is there really more to say on this topic???

As for crime....no, sadly, Spain is not crime-free. You have been very lucky not to have been the victim of a burglary or street mugging. But in a country with seven million unemployed a rise in such property-related crimes is sadly only to be expected.

We live in what is perceived as an 'affluent' area where in fact houses may be large but bank balances of residents small. Almost every house including ours has been burgled.
Yet once again there are precautions that can be taken. We were stupid....took the dogs out each night at more or less the same time, left the persianas up, didn't set the alarm, left back door key in the lock...everything apart from a Bienvenido sign...Now we lock up, persianas down, alarm on if we take both dogs out .
There have been quite a few 'distraction' type robberies of tourists - people asking for directions and so on. Best course of action: ignore, brush past.

Sadly Spain is far from being crime-free....


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## expatrocks (Jan 16, 2012)

> Do we really need a new thread? Is there really more to say on this topic???


No and no.  I was just trying to keep this thread from veering further off course.



> Sadly Spain is far from being crime-free....


Yeah I'm really surprised by how little I've encountered. We stick mainly to the north, Madrid, and the islands (in Formentara now). My wife did catch one girl with her hand in her purse on the metro escalator in Madrid. She came up empty though. My impression is that there's a lot more crime in the south than in the north. That probably follows the unemployment rate like you said. I'm sure parts of Madrid are rampant with it too.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

Another potential Spanish rip off sprang to mind.

Bank accounts. Can someone please explain to me why—

1/ Spanish banks charge you to maintain a bank account, and
2/ Why non-resident bank accounts have higher charges than resident ones.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

zenkarma said:


> Another potential Spanish rip off sprang to mind.
> 
> Bank accounts. Can someone please explain to me why—
> 
> ...


Bank-charges:That's not so much of a rip-off at all. It's what always used to happen in the UK and still does in most other counties. The charge-free account only arose in UK to encourage customers and boost business, then they all did it so it was no longer working. Banks there have been humming and hawing about stopping free-banking for a number of years because it costs money but none of them wants to be the first to jump.

As for the difference in charges between resident and non-resident accounts, I have no idea why but it could be that there is more work involved with reporting back to the non-resident's home country.

As for the situation in Spain, ask your bank if there is a reduction or exemption if you maintain a certain balance. We did that and haven't paid bank charges since we have been here but they* do* charge us, we go and complain and the charges are refunded.


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## expatrocks (Jan 16, 2012)

Can you use a non-Spanish bank with a balance in Euros instead?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

zenkarma said:


> Another potential Spanish rip off sprang to mind.
> 
> Bank accounts. Can someone please explain to me why—
> 
> ...


My offshore bank charges me. My Czech banks charged me. Not a lot, though.
We got 'free' banking in the UK when deregulation allowed banks to merge retail and investment arms and to be able to use our deposits for speculative purposes thus making money from our money. We all know where that led to and I for one am pleased that retail banking is to be split off again. 


My resident charges with BS are the same as a friend's non- resident charges.

These are not rip offs, though. They are merely different ways of doing business. To describe something like that as a rip off is a value judgment. I don't see paying these small charges as a rip off.

I consider paying €100 or more for jeans with a currently trendy label as a rip off when I can get a perfectly decentair from Mango for €30. Fashionistas would see things differently.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I consider paying €100 or more for jeans with a currently trendy label as a rip off when I can get a perfectly decentair from Mango for €30. Fashionistas would see things differently.


Or even less at the village market!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

expatrocks said:


> Can you use a non-Spanish bank with a balance in Euros instead?


Yes, you can, as I said earlier. Your US bank may allow you to have a euro account. But the simplest way to have a non - Spanish euro account is to open an offshore account.
There really is no need to fear Spanish banks.....


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## expatrocks (Jan 16, 2012)

> There really is no need to fear Spanish banks


Besides the whole rip-off thing, it sounds like the fees are really high. And don't you have to walk into a branch (as opposed to calling) to get anything done?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

zenkarma said:


> Another potential Spanish rip off sprang to mind.
> 
> Bank accounts. Can someone please explain to me why—
> 
> ...


Re 1 - mine doesn't (iBanesto Cuenta Azul).


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

expatrocks said:


> Besides the whole rip-off thing, it sounds like the fees are really high. And don't you have to walk into a branch (as opposed to calling) to get anything done?


No, I do all my banking with BS online. The fees I pay aren't high. That I know because I can't remember offhand what they are and if they were that high I would remember!


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## expatrocks (Jan 16, 2012)

What about customer service though? Can you call the bank and fix problems?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

expatrocks said:


> What about customer service though? Can you call the bank and fix problems?


You can call or visit. I usually visit as the staff are so friendly and helpful.
I managed to lose three debit cards in just over a year.....yes, I know, don't ask....and the nice man whose sad lot it fell to to be my customer service guy successfully managed to hide the fact tat he was clearly dealing with the typical befuddled old biddy and got me new cards within days...

They also have a free service whereby each time an amount of 100 euros is taken from your account by card or online you get an instant SMS notification with a number to call if you didn't make that withdrawal.

Spain isn't some backward country so its banking services, although they may leave much to be desired in some major policy respects, give service every bit as good as that I've encountered in the U.S., Canada, Germany, France and a thousand times better than that in the Czech Republic..


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

To be fair all day today I have been getting those free service sms's to my phone which I found odd as I didn't even give the bank my number and it said I had no money left in the account, quite a shock in the morning but upon my second coffee it registered it wasn't my account number.

So you call the bank, follow the prompts for someone in English, someone answers in Spanish and tells you the English girl will call you back, 3 hours later they call back, relatively painless phone call saying they'll fix it but I'm still receiving these texts and to top it off but with a probably unrelated issue the bank card wont get accepted at the shop.

What to make of it all, probably not much but it's well worth double checking all our accounts which I'll do when I get 5 minutes.

Also and this may tell you something we just had a call telling us our sons bed will be delivered tomorrow, it's only been ordered for two months with lots of meaningless back and forth with the delivery company but this rather quite normal everyday task of delivering a bed has been turned into something you want to celebrate when it finally arrives.
Don't want to start too early as it's not here yet but we'll open some bubbles for that one.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

zenkarma said:


> Bank accounts. Can someone please explain to me why—
> 
> 1/ Spanish banks charge you to maintain a bank account


We have an account with BBVA and several accounts with La Caixa, and we don't get charged for any of them. 

I can't actually remember the last time I went into a bank. We do everything online or through the ATM. I have absolutely no complaints.


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## paradisecircus (Sep 28, 2013)

zenkarma said:


> Another potential Spanish rip off sprang to mind.
> 
> Bank accounts. Can someone please explain to me why—
> 
> ...


1. Most of them don't charge anything when you keep a certain balance or your salary/pension/unemployment goes into that account. 

2. That happens mostly everywhere. 

Expatrocks:
Personally, I would walk into the bank whenever possible. You can sort out basically everything online or calling but it's a latin culture, nothing can substitute the tete a tete.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

Aron said:


> I would suggest 80% don't bother to look or know about vests or triangles, I certainly didn't until we came to live in Spain.
> 
> I have my best pal flying into Malaga tomorrow. I have asked him to check to see if he has the required items in his hire car to comply with the law. I shall update this forum later in the week on the outcome.


Re my previous answer
My pal who flew into Malaga asked his hire car company what the law was on triangles and fluorescent jackets. They replied that the law required the carrying of one fluorescent jacket and two warning triangles. When he got to his car there was a fluorescent jacket in the glove compartment and the triangles in the boot. His hire company told him, they must abide by the law.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Aron said:


> Re my previous answer
> My pal who flew into Malaga asked his hire car company what the law was on triangles and fluorescent jackets. They replied that the law required the carrying of one fluorescent jacket and two warning triangles. When he got to his car there was a fluorescent jacket in the glove compartment and the triangles in the boot. His hire company told him, they must abide by the law.


Except that they were wrong, AFAIK the law says there should be a fluorescent jacket for every person in the vehicle but maybe a hire company can get away with only one for the driver (with whom they have a contract) and it is the hirer's responsibility to make provision for any passengers he/she may take with him/her


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> Except that they were wrong, AFAIK the law says there should be a fluorescent jacket for every person in the vehicle but maybe a hire company can get away with only one for the driver (with whom they have a contract) and it is the hirer's responsibility to make provision for any passengers he/she may take with him/her


If what you are suggesting is correct, the hire company should inform the driver of his responsibility as they are aware of the law and the occupants are not aware. If you were aware of someone breaking the law, then you are culpable especially if you provided the service.
I said last week I would get my pal to ask at Malaga airport about fluorescent jackets and triangles. I can only relate to you what they said. I recently bought a new car which had two fluorescent jackets supplied.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Aron said:


> If what you are suggesting is correct, the hire company should inform the driver of his responsibility as they are aware of the law and the occupants are not aware. If you were aware of someone breaking the law, then you are culpable especially if you provided the service.
> I said last week I would get my pal to ask at Malaga airport about fluorescent jackets and triangles. I can only relate to you what they said. I recently bought a new car which had two fluorescent jackets supplied.



I believe that Baldi is correct. I seem to recall that it's one per occupant.

However, I also seem to recall that if you don't have sufficient, then the occupants must stay inside the vehicle!

I wonder what the truth is?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> I believe that Baldi is correct. I seem to recall that it's one per occupant.
> 
> However, I also seem to recall that if you don't have sufficient, then the occupants must stay inside the vehicle!
> 
> I wonder what the truth is?


Here it is (from a forum used by Guardia Civiles!!)
Reglamento General de Circulación. Art. 118.3

_Los *conductores* de turismos, de autobuses, de automóviles destinados al transporte de mercancías, de vehículos mixtos, de conjuntos de vehículos no agrícolas, así como los conductores y personal auxiliar de los vehículos piloto de protección y acompañamiento deberán utilizar un chaleco reflectante de alta visibilidad, certificado según el Real Decreto 1407/1992, de 20 de noviembre, por el que se regulan las condiciones para la comercialización y libre circulación intracomunitaria de los equipos de protección individual, que figura entre la dotación obligatoria del vehículo, cuando salgan de éste y ocupen la calzada o el arcén de las vías interurbanas.

So, you have to have one fluorescent jacket. However any passengers who get out of the car must also wear a reflective jacket.
This isn't meant to be in cursive but for some reason I'm trapped in it atm...

_


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Here it is (from a forum used by Guardia Civiles!!)
> Reglamento General de Circulación. Art. 118.3
> 
> _Los *conductores* de turismos, de autobuses, de automóviles destinados al transporte de mercancías, de vehículos mixtos, de conjuntos de vehículos no agrícolas, así como los conductores y personal auxiliar de los vehículos piloto de protección y acompañamiento deberán utilizar un chaleco reflectante de alta visibilidad, certificado según el Real Decreto 1407/1992, de 20 de noviembre, por el que se regulan las condiciones para la comercialización y libre circulación intracomunitaria de los equipos de protección individual, que figura entre la dotación obligatoria del vehículo, cuando salgan de éste y ocupen la calzada o el arcén de las vías interurbanas.
> ...


So the car catches fire, you only have one HVV, the driver gets out and wears the HVV, the rest of the passengers stay in and get burnt to death. - ridiculous isn't it? It makes sense to ensure that you have at least one per passenger either actual or potential. 

There are five HVVs in our car (one per passenger seat) all accessible by the persons who are likely to need to wear them (i.e. those for the back seat passengers are easily reachable by the back seat passengers without having to climb over into the front or over the back seat, similarly for each of the front seats where the HVVs are in the door pocket next to the persons who need them. In fact we rarely have five persons in the car since the dogs are usually with us and their restraint plugs into one seatbelt socket.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> So the car catches fire, you only have one HVV, the driver gets out and wears the HVV, the rest of the passengers stay in and get burnt to death. - ridiculous isn't it? It makes sense to ensure that you have at least one per passenger either actual or potential.
> 
> There are five HVVs in our car (one per passenger seat) all accessible by the persons who are likely to need to wear them (i.e. those for the back seat passengers are easily reachable by the back seat passengers without having to climb over into the front or over the back seat, similarly for each of the front seats where the HVVs are in the door pocket next to the persons who need them. In fact we rarely have five persons in the car since the dogs are usually with us and their restraint plugs into one seatbelt socket.


Then we could conceivably ask, as a dog is an occupant of the car, does a dog need a reflective jacket too. Just an interesting observation.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Aron said:


> Then we could conceivably ask, as a dog is an occupant of the car, does a dog need a reflective jacket too. Just an interesting observation.


I'm thinking about trying to get some for walking them in the dark. I've got one that I wear over the waterproof that I wear in the dark when it is raining since it is not easy for a driver to see somebody wearing a dark colour when it is raining and the wipers are going.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> I'm thinking about trying to get some for walking them in the dark. I've got one that I wear over the waterproof that I wear in the dark when it is raining since it is not easy for a driver to see somebody wearing a dark colour when it is raining and the wipers are going.


So true.
The other day driving to work at 7.10 I nearly stopped to tell someone waking to the bus stop that he was a) not walking on the pavement and b) was clothed head to foot in black and was completely invisible even though there was street lighting.

But I didn't.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> So true.
> The other day driving to work at 7.10 I nearly stopped to tell someone waking to the bus stop that he was a) not walking on the pavement and b) was clothed head to foot in black and was completely invisible even though there was street lighting.
> 
> But I didn't.


You just ran him over instead to really make the point! Good for you!


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

You can buy dog reflective coats in most chinese shops & the vet usually has them as well.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I want one for my black cat. She is impossible to find when she goes out onto the roof terrace at night.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

In the UK I used to use reflective collars that attached with velcro but additionally they had flashing red Led lights on them that you could turn on/off, which were ideal when taking the dogs in the fields in the dark.
I'm sure I've seen similar in the chinese shop here.


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