# unfinished new build



## colinthecarp (Dec 15, 2013)

hi all Im a new member so be gentle with me. we are hoping to move to the Algarve and have found a new property that is unfinished ,its basically a shell with no electrics or plumbing ,kitchen or septic tank.me thinks the builder has gone bump, also the permit has lapsed. can anybody tell me can I hire local trades to finish the job or do I have to get a new builder to finish it in order to get the habitation licence. any advice will be greatly appreciated
kind regards Dave


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Take extreme care that first you can actually get permission to complete build legally and if so you can buy it at a price that would allow you to complete to a market value and that it would be totally debt and any third party interest free.

If you can satisfy that then you would need to employ a builder with the necessary licence to complete the build, you cannot DIY or employ trades directly if you want the necassery Habitation Licence


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## colinthecarp (Dec 15, 2013)

thanks for that sounds like ill have to tread carefully.would I still get the 5 years building guarantee once its completed do you think or would the new builder be reluctant to guarantee someone else`s work


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Might depend on actually who's supplying guarantee, new builder probably if he wants the work, although I would think this is one of the areas you would need to check is that there are no current defects with build and if there are then price reflects that and your new builder would rectify and then take responsibility.

In your initial checks you must ascertain whether you can continue with the "current" granted project or whether you'd need to apply for a new "project" the problem this causes is new plans must be submitted reflecting any changes in building regs and there's always a *possibility that permission would be refused*

New builds reguire 2 sets of books as part of Habitation Licence Livro de Obra and Ficha Technica de Habitação so you also need to make certain you can get relevant information from previous builder or copies of documents if with anyone else


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## colinthecarp (Dec 15, 2013)

hi canoeman thanks for your reply its much appreciated . I went to see this property a few weeks ago and was told by the agent that the build had stopped some 5 years ago due to domestic circumstances with the owners, and has remained unfinished since. the plans that have been sent to me on a4 paper are not very detailed , but do show some minor changes to the plans supplied , i.e. windows and doors put in different positions, and a wall left out upstairs to make a bigger bedroom. would they have had to seek permission for these changes and if not would this deem it an illegal build with no chance of an habitation licence. the opinion I have at the moment is that an architect would need to be employed and new plans submitted ,I have no idea how long that process takes. what are your thoughts on the situation 
once again can I thank you for your assistance 
kind regards dave


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Minor changes can be handled relatively easily, by revised plans submitted as part of final process, but as build has not moved for 5 years then the very first thing to check is whether *you will have to submit a new project* if so you will certainly have to include current building regs, how long, afraid it depends on firstly architect and then the Camara and external permissions that are also reguired, some are quick others well and secondly if Camara will grant new permission.

Since the original permission was granted 2 major changes Livro de Obra is a new requirement and might pose a problem, and solar hot water now reguired, probably loads of minor changes

Personally in this sort of situation I would check information supplied by an agent or someone with vested interests by a neutral 3rd party

Unless the house, location or price (once completed) is really that good considering number of properties for sale is it worth it?


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## colinthecarp (Dec 15, 2013)

well in answer ,the house and location are perfect once finished. we have only been looking for 2 years so we thought that we had finally found our dream in reality.is it possible to speak to camara directly for there advice and current standing with the property?


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## paramonte (Sep 9, 2007)

Check out if the "licença de construção LC" (building licence) is still valid, or indeed if ever there was a licença de construção (rare this days but possible).

Tipically a LC has a 2 or slightly more, years validity, so I would venture yours has already lapsed. 
 In this case you are back to square one in terms of licences and everything. You can ask a new one, but if the PDM for the area as changed, they may turn it down, despite the existing already built infra-structure.
PDM is the general local planning, changes every 5 or 10 years...


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## colinthecarp (Dec 15, 2013)

thanks for all your help canoeman looks like ill have a lot more head scratching before I get to the bottom of this one me thinks cheers top man


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## Centralbound (Aug 16, 2013)

In principle the local council should be receptive as the building will earn them more tax completed than half-done. I would hire a translator and meet with the council and lay it out, and if you get definite answers you can cost the new project and see if it all adds up. If the building is even slightly different to the existing plans it will be a headache so back to the original architect if poss. He should bite your hand off for a chance to earn twice from the same job but this is Portugal...

You must not take anything on face value from the vendors of course. The house may not be legally for sale if there are issues over money. This is the case in an argument over a house near me: the land is in the daughter's name for convenience but has become an asset fought over in a divorce. Land is worth a few thousand, but has high five figures of building work on top of it (paid by Dad). Empty and decaying for five years now.


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## colinthecarp (Dec 15, 2013)

hi there thanks for the input, it sounds like the same property ,its not in moncarapacho is it?


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Local Camara might be receptive, but if law or DPM has changed?

I would reiterate the point that Paramonte and myself have made that even with a new project submitted, which in itself can be expensive, permission might still be refused, see you've asked about a surveyor, you'd find it easier and no cost to get an architect to look at the part build to see what would be entailed to prepare and submit a new project to reapply for planning permission, if those figures add up and a likelihood of permission being granted then that's the time to involve a surveyor so any problems are highlighted to be included in completion.


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## colinthecarp (Dec 15, 2013)

I think the original architect is still around and the agent has said that the vendor will guarantee a valid licence as part of sale . just concerned on costs really to finish build as really it is just a shell


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## Centralbound (Aug 16, 2013)

No, much further North. But the risks must be assessed because you can be screwed retrospectively for other peoples' problems in Portugal and there is no real prospect of relief because the legal system is unfit for use. If the property is the subject of a fight over money, walk away unless you have great confidence in your lawyer steering a course.

So I would prioritise by obtaining a written statement of why the build stopped and who owns what and who is selling; then see if the Camara will let the shell go forward; then review with the original architect if possible, or another if not - the latter will cost a small fee I should think, but the former not. If it then looks good I would offer a price with a low initial figure escritura that cancels any obligation if the Camara does not grant the new project permission. I can't see how you can avoid a new project and I think it sensible to get one in any case; you'll be paying for this, hence the suggestion of a low or zero value escritura to save any further pain if the bureaucrats let you down.

This house has to be really desirable because it could take some time before the mixers start turning and you will have to spend speculatively on paperwork. Spending a couple of years finding the right thing is eminently sensible so boa sorte, hope it works out.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

colinthecarp said:


> I think the original architect is still around and the agent has said that the vendor will guarantee a valid licence as part of sale . just concerned on costs really to finish build as really it is just a shell


Personally don't see how he can guarantee this and if he can it must affect the value upwards, plus you would then be bound to any plans he has submitted for approval, I would only proceed on these terms after extremely careful checking and strong safety clauses in any Promissory Note and not paying a "cashable" deposit.


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## colinthecarp (Dec 15, 2013)

yes I see what you mean it seems to be getting pretty messy . ill have to fire off a few more emails to clarify things. why aint life easy lol!!


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Because agent and owner want to make a sale and you're dealing with an area that has very different rules & regulations to your knowledge base, far safer for a buyer than a lot of countries providing you're aware of procedures or the things to check and questions to ask


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## colinthecarp (Dec 15, 2013)

fired off some questions to the agent , about ownership , permit issues just have to sit on the fence and wait for replies . its good to have people around to steer you in the right direction thanks all


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Ask for current copies of the Cadernetas from the Consevatoria that gives information on property, neighbours, m2, Article Nos, land designation and who owns and in what proportion, it will also show if there is any 1/3 party interest, debt, mortgage and from Financas which gives additional information on taxable value, land designation but this will not be totally accurate as it will change when property is completed, a Teor from Financas will say if property has any tax debt.


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## robc (Jul 17, 2008)

Having bought land and built our own house in central Portugal we looked at many part completed houses. I would iterate what has been said so far, plus, get everything in writing, without written consents, approvals, decisions then you are scuppered some time in the future, whenever we asked for written confirmations they seemed to be impossible to obtain..............................Funny that.

Eventually we gave up on part built and bought land, easier, cheaper, less stress(please note I did not say stress free) and you get exactly what you want.

Plan B would be to value this part built as just a plot and offer accordingly. 

Chech, re-check and check again would be my motto.

Rob.

pm me if I can help further


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## colinthecarp (Dec 15, 2013)

yea did think about going down the route of buying land and having a timber framed designed to our spec but had difficulty finding a company in the Algarve to supply


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## robc (Jul 17, 2008)

colinthecarp said:


> yea did think about going down the route of buying land and having a timber framed designed to our spec but had difficulty finding a company in the Algarve to supply


Timber frame will confuddle many builders over here, it is just not used much as a building material. 

Rob


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

robc said:


> Timber frame will confuddle many builders over here, it is just not used much as a building material.
> 
> Rob


probably because of termites and those big black wood boring beetles (cucarones) that fly like the clappers making a loud buzzing and hurt like h*ll when they fly into you.


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## robc (Jul 17, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> probably because of termites and those big black wood boring beetles (cucarones) that fly like the clappers making a loud buzzing and hurt like h*ll when they fly into you.


Thats the ones, they do sting a bit don´t they.


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## colinthecarp (Dec 15, 2013)

hi all 
just got a reply from the agent to say that as part of sale the vendor ,at his cost will supply a valid extension to the original building permit.so can I take it that this would take most of the risk out of the equation and that the current regs would not apply, also what would be my next move get in touch with the original architect or a surveyor. the other thing im concerned about is the fact that the original permit has not allowed for a swimming pool or any type of garage. how much of a problem would this be to rectify 
regards dave


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

If you want to take a stage further then first ascertain who is or are owners, are all parties agreeable to sale, is there any debt mortgage to property, and the *validity *of this extension to the original building permit and *if there are any conditions imposed on it*, it is possible to extend permits once a build has started by paying extra fees but not generally if original has lapsed so this extension needs checking by third party.

Whether you'll get permission for a garage or pool might well depend on how much of the permissible build land area is already allocated to house footprint, and if sufficient area left, both will reguire plans and permission.


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## colinthecarp (Dec 15, 2013)

have been told that there is a small mortgage but this will be paid up at the completion with solicitors. house is 255 sm on a plot of 8000 sm


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## colinthecarp (Dec 15, 2013)

how flexible are the local camara normally .are they easy to deal with


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Plot might be 8000m2 but what's the permitted build area? I've never had any real issues with Camaras over builds, but all vary and some are real sticklers about following rules and regulations, probably more so in Algarve


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## colinthecarp (Dec 15, 2013)

don't know the permitted build area have not got that paperwork .all ive got is agents plans with the actual land and villa size.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

A question to ask then


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## colinthecarp (Dec 15, 2013)

yes deffo ill add it to the list


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