# why?



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

So, we all wanted to move to Spain at some point. Why? What is it we were expecting? Why did we think it would be better than being in the UK? Has it lived up to our expectations? Has it been easy?

For me, I wanted to move away from the dull greyness of the UK. I always liked the space, climate and freedom that I thought Spain held. It actually hasnt been quite like that for me. The climate in the summer is great, but the winter isnt like I expected. The work situation here is bad and as someone said recently, Spain isnt a British colony and you cant just come over and ignore the need to speak spanish or live by their rules. I was ok with that and have found a wonderful little niche of mainly being with British, but trying to speak spanish and I do have a few Spanish friends - but the language is a problem. You cant have a best friend who you cant have a good chat with! 

The work situation has been the biggest issue for us. My OH commutes to the UK to work, which means I'm on my own a fair bit. The original idea was that he'd start a sister company here, but the recession has made that a little too dangerous! Being on my own is fine alot of the time, but there are occasions when I dont want to be the "single" person. Going out to places that the kids dont want to go to means I dont bother - Sitting on a beach by myself isnt much fun!!!!!

The one thing I have realised, the UK isnt that bad. Yes its a nanny state and I dont like a lot of the over done rules, but there are some very useful safety nets there, which Spain doesnt have

As you can see I'm having one of my sunday morning profound moments 

Jo xxx


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

jojo said:


> So, we all wanted to move to Spain at some point. Why? What is it we were expecting? Why did we think it would be better than being in the UK? Has it lived up to our expectations? Has it been easy?
> 
> For me, I wanted to move away from the dull greyness of the UK. I always liked the space, climate and freedom that I thought Spain held. It actually hasnt been quite like that for me. The climate in the summer is great, but the winter isnt like I expected. The work situation here is bad and as someone said recently, Spain isnt a British colony and you cant just come over and ignore the need to speak spanish or live by their rules. I was ok with that and have found a wonderful little niche of mainly being with British, but trying to speak spanish and I do have a few Spanish friends - but the language is a problem. You cant have a best friend who you cant have a good chat with!
> 
> ...


You're doing a great job JoJo, keep it up and you'll be happy as larry in no time.

By the way, I decided long ago I wan't ever coming to Spain to "Have to work". The UK is massively better for that and only a two hour fight away. So, the biggest benefit of the UK is - it has a lot more opportunity to find and keep work, at all levels.

But - to "Live"... well, won't go there.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Yes, Jo, that's a sensible objective view. As I've said, we moved from Prague to Spain merely because of convenience. We wanted a change of scenery and our familiy had property here we could occupy whilst searching for a house of our own. But if they had lived in Italy or the South of France we'd have ended up there.
As you also know, this thing about the 'Spanish dream' really intrigues me. You rarely if ever hear it from people who've lived in or have travelled widely in other countries. 
And if the 'dream' consists just of sunshine.....how poor people's lives must be if a few months of sun makes a 'dream'.
I guess people imagine whitewashed villas with acres of orange groves by the sea and with a distant view of mountains. More likely to be a tower block apartment in some approximation of Blackpool with heat or an Alcatraz type urb with hundreds of people around the communal swimming pool for many people who come with few if any skills and no Spanish.
There is a block near us in the campo ironically named 'La Joya'. Many Brits live there. It is grimy, paint peeling off,litter everywhere, beat-up old cars all around, screaming kids running wild,washing hanging out of windows, graffiti,one over-priced shop, no buses. There doesn't seem to be a communal pool. Dream??? More like a nightmare.
I blame tv programmes and package holidays for giving a false impression of life in Spain. I visited the CR several times a year for decades before going to live there, had good friends, thought I knew all about it.....But I soon found that living somewhere is in no way the same as visiting. No way would I have moved a family there unless I'd had a secure well-paid job with good accommodation before leaving the UK.
I like living in Spain....but then I'm not looking for work. And that is a major bonus to enjoying life anywhere outside the UK at this time.


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I blame tv programmes and package holidays for giving a false impression of life in Spain.


Blame them?? I'm not certain about that.

Package holidays - can't see how they could have seduced people into relocating. 
(fortnight of sun & sea & sex is all most package holidaymakers are interested in  )

TV progs - certainly give a very positive view of Spain (except 'houses from hell'  )but then one would have to be incredibly naive to believe everything they show. I would have thought that any reasonably intelligent person would do his 'due diligence' (research). If they make their decision based on a half-hour TV prog then I can't see that the TV prog is to blame.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

I retired early. Then my wife was made redundant in effect with a nice big package. So I have 13 (my wife 4 years) years to go on investment income before we get a pension, and therefore need somewhere cheaper to live than the UK.

The first 6 months to a year weren't too much fun as regards the beaurocracy, although we did have a lot of help. Its not easy for anyone moving to a new country with different cultures, rules and regulations. My ideas about integrating etc went by the board when I realised the reality of things in Spain! 

Spain was near to England though, so we can go back whenever we want, its warm and (believe it or not) it's friendly.

Quite simple reasons really. If I'd had to work then I wouldn't have even considered it. I feel sorry for those that tried it and have had to return to the UK through lack of work. 

Regrets, I have a few but then again too few to mention


I should have rented!


I don't have that many issues with the UK. We didn't move here to escape anything, just for an easier life. We may go back one day ... I never planned it forever.


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

> So, we all wanted to move to Spain at some point. Why? What is it we were expecting? Why did we think it would be better than being in the UK? Has it lived up to our expectations? Has it been easy?


On the other hand ....
- National papers extolling the virtues of cheap housing, no heating bills in the winter, cheap cost of living (pensioners getting more vfm from their UK pension), la dolce vita
- Estate agents _selling _the 'dream' to people who 'wanted to believe'.
- Time share Companies doing the same
.... all contributed to seduce Brits into relocating, only promoting the 'plus' side of life in Spain.

It's unfortunate that people generally believe only that which they want to believe. They were brainwashed into believing that there was only an 'up' side and no 'down' side.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

JBODEN said:


> Blame them?? I'm not certain about that.
> 
> Package holidays - can't see how they could have seduced people into relocating.
> (fortnight of sun & sea & sex is all most package holidaymakers are interested in  )
> ...


Package holidays....they make people think life is simple and there are no obstacles, you just lie back and enjoy. Everything is done for you.
TV programmes....the key phrase is 'any reasonably intelligent person'.....You only have to consider the posts from would-be immigrants to see how naive some people are.
But I guess you're right....you can't blame other people for your own foolishness.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> I retired early. Then my wife was made redundant in effect with a nice big package. So I have 13 (my wife 4 years) years to go on investment income before we get a pension, and therefore need somewhere cheaper to live than the UK.
> 
> The first 6 months to a year weren't too much fun as regards the beaurocracy, although we did have a lot of help. Its not easy for anyone moving to a new country with different cultures, rules and regulations. My ideas about integrating etc went by the board when I realised the reality of things in Spain!
> 
> ...


.
I agree with most of that. Bureauocracy.....(spelling) - you can't beat the former Communist countries for petty-minded penpushers. We haven't had any problems with anything in that line here.
But then we didn't buy!!! We divested ourselves of everything we owned property-wise in the UK and Canada, both business and residential.. Best decision we made, although recently return on investments hasn't been good. We are currently living in a rented property we couldn't afford to buy without reducing our diet to lentils for the rest of our lives.
Your point about the short distance from the UK is valid too. Canada is rather too far to consider popping back for the day as I did when we lived in Prague!
Spot on about work.'Nuff said!
On reflection, I think you're right about integration too. No matter what some people may think, it's only the likes of Tallulah and Pesky and a few others who truly integrate. And the smaller the village, the more you stand out as a foreigner. Why is it considered so important to integrate anyway? And what does it mean? It's human nature to differentiate.
At this juncture I can't see us returning to the UK. We visit regularly anyway. 
But who knows? We are footloose and fancy-free. I wouldn't mind living in one of those converted lofts in Glasgow's elegant Georgian Merchant City.
But then the weather there springs to mind....


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> .Why is it considered so important to integrate anyway?


Guess it depends on circumstances. If you:


are surrounded with family and will be to your dying day
live in an expat community that is large and sustainable
are a recluse/hermit
see Spain as just an extended holiday

and don't mind not being involved in your local surroundings and community then I guess it may not be important. Providing of course that you can avoid resentment from the locals.

But integrating, to whatever level, can give great pleasure and ease your way through life. I think it is a lack of intergration that leaves many reluctantly returning to their roots.

I think your position Mary is as unique as that of Pesky, Tallulah and myself. But for a family, couple or individual who do not have connections in an area I believe it is vital and generally fatal if ignored.

Now what do we mean by integration and at what level does it have to be to be successful? Well that's perhaps best for another thread


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## Seb* (Mar 22, 2009)

jojo said:


> So, we all wanted to move to Spain at some point. Why? What is it we were expecting? Why did we think it would be better than being in the UK? Has it lived up to our expectations? Has it been easy?


Simple and practical reasons really. We are working over the internet, so are flexible where we live. My family has owned this house for 36 years - it was only used as a holiday home. Before we came here we lived near London, living costs are expensive there, but we really liked it. Living in spain was and is massively cheaper than in the UK for us. We can live rent and mortage free, food and everyday expenses are lower. Add on the view on the Mediterranean and lovely warm climate most of the year and it´s a no-brainer.

Has it been easy? Looking back I must say after all it was easier than I expected. It was a brave and quick decision. We came down to have a look at the house and area (only have been here for holidays as a child) in february and moved down in april. We literally packed everything we owned and our little puppy in the car and drove down (the cat followed a week later). 

It was easier than I expected, BUT we had a lot of adventures and a lot of doubts along the way. Torrential rain, powercuts for days and no knowledge of the language was harsh on us during the first 8 months. I did not even have an idea how to order new gas bottles or how to get a car registered. The first year is the hardest! Now we´re settled, getting a grip of the language and are not planning to leave again 

Our big advantage was, we have no children (beside the 2 dogs and our cat!), did not need a job (at least not yet) and did not have to pay for more than running costs and food. Would I want to do this all with a family and no job? Hell no!

To the integration part. I fully agree with what Mary said! Integration is not easy and I - too - can´t understand why so many people try to force the theme so much. Sometimes it feels you are a bad person if you dont tell everyone that you don´t want to live near expats and want to fully immerse in the local native community. We´re living in a big very expat and multi cultural area, where european foreigners are clearly in the majority. Do I want to fully integrate into the spanish community? No - mainly cause I don´t think I can (no spanish family ties, not enough language skills and most important: not many spanish neighbours).
Do I want to isolate myself from the spanish life? No - not at all. I am trying to speak spanish (with progressive success) as much as possible and before I ask them if they are able to speak english I try my limited spanish. I obey to the local rules and customs and I am not avoiding spanish businesses and shops. This is as far as my integration goes and I have never encountered any kind of resentment from the spanish people I´ve met.


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## AfroSaxon (Jan 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> ...You only have to consider the posts from would-be immigrants to see how naive some people are.


I joined this forum just over a year ago...thank god I did! We're nowhere near ready to relocate yet (only realised thanks to sound advice from you lot) but are still horrified to see posts from people who have done little or no research whatsoever. 

We _*had*_ friends who moved to Spain illegally (ran away from heavy debts) and have had to (still are) struggling from day to day doing that terrible scratchcard 'job' or working 18 hours a day in various struggling bars for next to nada! They pretty much blew up their bridges back home in the UK. After 5 years you'd think they would at least attempt the language, but no! We no longer tell them when we're coming to Spain on holiday because we end up lending them money that they never pay back. If that is their 'dream' then they've completely lost the plot :confused2:

Anyway....:focus: Why Spain? Mostly the same reasons as others...the climate (not including freaky winters), friendly locals, close to home, etc. We just can't bear the gloom and 6 month winters. We feel we have a good sound plan but one which must remain fluid as the economic situation ebbs and flows over the next few years. In the meantime we'll continue to learn the language and get the qualifications we need before we sell up and leave.

It's nice for people to have dreams and to give it a go but I do get annoyed when people refuse to listen to the voices of experience.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Seb* said:


> To the integration part. I fully agree with what Mary said! Integration is not easy and I - too - can´t understand why so many people try to force the theme so much. Sometimes it feels you are a bad person if you dont tell everyone that you don´t want to live near expats and want to fully immerse in the local native community. We´re living in a big very expat and multi cultural area, where european foreigners are clearly in the majority. Do I want to fully integrate into the spanish community? No - mainly cause I don´t think I can (no spanish family ties, not enough language skills and most important: not many spanish neighbours).
> 
> Do I want to isolate myself from the spanish life? No - not at all. I am trying to speak spanish (with progressive success) as much as possible and before I ask them if they are able to speak english I try my limited spanish. I obey to the local rules and customs and I am not avoiding spanish businesses and shops. This is as far as my integration goes and I have never encountered any kind of resentment from the spanish people I´ve met.


Seb not sure many here are forcing integration; just saying that for many integration can be the difference between success and failure. Perhaps better to talk about isolationism rather than integration.

Your own position is fairly unique and you obviously have a great deal of independence regarding family, house, job and economy. Many do not have that luxury and a certain level of integration will be essential.

At a simple level in Asturias I live in a block of 12 flats. How could I survive if I didn't integrate to some level?

Of course I agree that language is a barrier and is difficult for many of the older generation but it isn't necessary to be fluent to avoid being isolated and I feel many potential expats do not get the importance of this or give it the necessary priority 

One situation that I think is interested is where the children of a family integrate and the parents don't


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Unless you have Spanish family here I truly dont believe you can achieve the integration thing. You might think you have, but it's probably not so.

Its a difficult thing to achieve. We dont go to english bars or restaurants, we attend a lot of fiestas, we use Spanish tradespeople, but Oliva is a big town. You cant just go down there and become accepted like you might manage in a small village.

Our neighbour is a Spanish man, and thats probably the closest we got, because we see him a lot. Even our friends down the mountain who speak to their spanish friends a lot in the street aren't really integrated. They are just accepted as foreigners

You have to be lucky and be in the right area to have a chance


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> Guess it depends on circumstances. If you:
> 
> 
> are surrounded with family and will be to your dying day
> ...


We have Spanish friends, don't live in a British area,speak the language etc.....but we are British and that's how we're perceived. That's what I meant, really.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Stravinsky said:


> Unless you have Spanish family here I truly dont believe you can achieve the integration thing. You might think you have, but it's probably not so.
> 
> Its a difficult thing to achieve. We dont go to english bars or restaurants, we attend a lot of fiestas, we use Spanish tradespeople, but Oliva is a big town. You cant just go down there and become accepted like you might manage in a small village.
> 
> ...


Stravinsky I can go along with that. I never think of that kind of full blooded integration. I think the important thing is to show you care and you're interested in your environment and thus the people within it. (Although I do think some people simply don't try). I guess I expect expats to act differently to holidaymakers. 

But I have heard of spaniards saying english expats are arrogant and think they own the place. That they demonstrate that they don't respect the spanish way of life. That makes me feel rather sad.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> We have Spanish friends, don't live in a British area,speak the language etc.....but we are British and that's how we're perceived. That's what I meant, really.


Integrated Brits  Got no problem with that. I'm not asking anyone to change nationality. 

I guess we need a bottle of wine and set the scene and then a good old discussion. These forums just aren't the same as a good old chinwag 

Opps my glass is empty. Hasta luego 

ps Mary hope the cars gone. You seemed rattled which is not your usual style


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> Unless you have Spanish family here I truly dont believe you can achieve the integration thing. You might think you have, but it's probably not so.
> 
> Its a difficult thing to achieve.......



Ah, but surely this applies whomever you are and wherever you are?

IMO, it’s primarily an age thing. Pick a kid, any kid, and plonk him/her in the middle of wherever you choose. I guarantee within a month (or less), they’re “integrated”. This phenomenon has a curve related to effect V. age. Inhibitions, set in one’s ways, not giving a flying hoot ho lives in number 64 or what they do etc., not to mention the fact that we’re too busy putting out fires and budgeting to socialise as much as is required to make real friends. In London, the above number 64 applies to people who live in number 62 and 66 – that’s how much people integrate in general. I know things are a little different up north. People are much more welcoming and “friendly” down the pub. But then again, who’s being honest? Are the northern folk your mates after a few pints? – really?

Bottom line, integration isn’t easy. Being there, at the local fiestas, at the bar talking with Miguel, Maria and Pablo and Juan Moment the mechanic, even helping Antonio out when his car won’t start in the morning. All these things get you into the community to a certain extent, but integrated?! No. You have to live there quite a while.

A mate of mine went to work on a 2 year project in Devizes (Wiltshire) from his base in London. A few of us went to visit after 6 months or so. We went for a pint down the local and I kid you not, when we walked in it was just like that scene in American Werewolf in London. Everyone turned to the door and stared, for a second, you could have heard a pin drop. It was bloody creepy! I recon he’d have to live there for 20 years before being “integrated”.

Also, the Spanish move a lot less than the brits (in general and in the South of England, don’t know about the north). Consequently, in Spain, families have known each other or off each other for generations in small towns and villages. People don’t have names. They’re son of Manolo or daughter of Esperanza or Grandson of… you get the drift. Integrating into that, wherever, is going to be tough and then some.
Conversely, I lived in a relatively small town in the UK for some time in one of my career hops. There were people from all over the place living there. Bit of a corporate town. Integration there was still a pain. Sure, lots of drinks, dinner parties, outings from within the corporate. But outside, no one knew or cared much about what was happening in the town. No one was planning to be there long I suspect…. And therein lies the rub!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Ye olde recurring theme; why, and do you feel part of IT, the Spanish scene????
Well, I've probably told you all before, but the reason I came here was 'cos I'd been living in Colombia for two years (Why, I hear you ask, but that's not the theme of the thread, is it?!) Colombia was a great experience, but I felt it was unfair to the family to be so far away. I wanted to be nearer the UK, but in a Spanish speaking country, so I got a job in Valls near Tarragona. Tarragona, Catalonia:loco:. Yes, where they speak Catalan, not Spanish. You see I hadn't done my research properly, had I?! But important points, I HAD got a job to go to, and I could speak some Spanish, which was useful, even essential although I was in Catalonia. I knew very little about the actual town I was going to, but to be honest that was one of the attractions. I was single, young enough for adventure, and prepared for some things to go wrong. I did the academic year there, found it not to my liking and then moved to Madrid.

Am I "intergrated"??? Well, in some senses yes, in others probably not. I don't have trouble understanding the language and can communicate. I "understand" the way things are done here, it doesn't fase me when I need three different appointments to get a piece of paper, when I have to wait an hour at the doctors even when I have an appointment, when people smoke in front of babies etc etc. But it doesn't mean to say that I don't find it _*frustrating*_, _*annoying*_, _*ridiculous, *_that I don't wish it would_* change, *_but I don't find myself comparing it to the way things are done in the UK for example 'cos I live here, not there. IIt doesn't surprise me. It's not smth that I waste a lot of energy on to tell the truth. It's commented on when everything goes smoothly and is done quickly, which I'm happy to report happens more and more!

I don't have loads of Spanish friends. But I wouldn't have loads of friends if I lived in the UK either, I'm a small circle person. By some people I'm regarded as the Brit, the foreigner - by others I'm Jane, it just depends on the person and their mindset. 

I hadn't thought about it before, but having a Spanish partner does probably help intergration, but it's not one hundred percent necessary. I know 2 couples, my closest friends here who are totally, completely intergrated. One couple is American/ British, the other is American / Algerian. All 4 of them are completely bilingual, work in Spanish companies and have children...


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Xose said:


> Ah, but surely this applies whomever you are and wherever you are?
> 
> IMO, it’s primarily an age thing. Pick a kid, any kid, and plonk him/her in the middle of wherever you choose. I guarantee within a month (or less), they’re “integrated”. This phenomenon has a curve related to effect V. age. Inhibitions, set in one’s ways, not giving a flying hoot ho lives in number 64 or what they do etc., not to mention the fact that we’re too busy putting out fires and budgeting to socialise as much as is required to make real friends. In London, the above number 64 applies to people who live in number 62 and 66 – that’s how much people integrate in general. I know things are a little different up north. People are much more welcoming and “friendly” down the pub. But then again, who’s being honest? Are the northern folk your mates after a few pints? – really?
> 
> ...



I moved to Devon in 1984 ,from London for a better life for our daughters . Another 2 years & I might have been accepted .:clap2: I had toyed with the idea of coming to Spain then & with hindsight it might have been the best option. In the early years you couldn't help but notice exactly what Xose said , you'd walk in the pub & it would go dead silent & all eyes would be looking at you . You would be spoken to & commented on as an 'incomer' or 'outsider', even if you were running a business & employing locals ! It got better over the years except when you had family or friends arrive & they'd walk in the pub & everyone would stop & stare again. I used to do lots of work around the coast down their & one shop had been managed by a scotsman for more than 30 years, married a local girl, 4 children , grandchildren : He always used to go in the local pub after finishing work & said to me one day, " there's not a week goes by that someone doesn't tell me I'm taking a 'locals' job & why don't I **** off back home !"
I've never encountered that here , yes they are intrigued as to why I moved here & are never shy of asking but I've never experienced the sometimes outright hostility that was to be seen in Devon & in many areas of Cornwall.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jojo said:


> So, we all wanted to move to Spain at some point. Why? What is it we were expecting? Why did we think it would be better than being in the UK? Has it lived up to our expectations? Has it been easy?


In 2005 my husband and I bought a large detached house in a pueblo blanco overlooking mountains and a cork-oak forest. Being 30 miles from the coast, it was incredibly cheap. We had no kids and had nearly paid off our mortgage in the UK so we planned to use it as a holiday home and eventually a place to retire to. As things turned out, we retired ten years early and moved over here permanently in 2008.

*Why?*
*Cost of living:* We could not live on our employers' pensions and savings in the UK. Even after the recent price rises and fall in the value of sterling, it is still much cheaper to live here -provided you don't try and live an English lifestyle and hanker for English food and entertainment all the time.

*More living space*: Our house here is twice the size of the one we had in the UK which means we can each have a room of our own as well as the communal spaces. This is really important when you are retired. No way could we have afforded a place this size in the UK.

*Better environment*: clean air, fresh food, mountain views, surrounded by nature reserves, space to breathe, longer daylight hours, winter sunshine, the Andalusian wildflower explosion in spring, gorgeous Costa de la Luz not far away ... 

*Cultural annoyances:* the UK seemed to be turning into a cross between an nanny state and a police state. Blair's "New Labour" turned out to be more right-wing than the Tories. Litigation culture - everything bad that happens to you has to be somebody else's fault. Stupid laws - you can't play music in public without a licence. Political apathy in the electorate, as a result of being lied to for too long. Institutionalised racism and islamophobia. I'm sure there are many things wrong with Spanish culture but they haven't hit us in the face yet. 

*The climate: * We have two months of the year - July and August - when it is too hot to do anything except slob on the beach or write on expat forums. The rest of the year you can spend most of the time out of doors, and those sunny winter days are priceless.

*The people:* We live in a town of about 5,000 inhabitants, having declined from 12,000 in the '50s. Far from showing resentment at foreigners, they have been incredibly welcoming and happy that we have chosen to move here. We have used local tradesmen to do odd jobs on the house and without exception they have been reliable, hardworking, and horrified when we offer them a tip. There are about 20 ex-pats here and we all come from wildly different backgrounds but we all help each other out. 

*Has it lived up to expectations? * Yes, definitely. In fact it has exceeded expectations in many ways; Spain is a country full of hidden treasures.

*Has it been easy? * For us, yes. We haven't had to look for work and we aren't trying to start a business. 

As a footnote I would like to add that there are some really nice people on this forum - it's by far the best I've found!


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## Maundler (Jul 30, 2010)

Stravinsky said:


> Unless you have Spanish family here I truly dont believe you can achieve the integration thing. You might think you have, but it's probably not so.
> 
> Its a difficult thing to achieve. We dont go to english bars or restaurants, we attend a lot of fiestas, we use Spanish tradespeople, but Oliva is a big town. You cant just go down there and become accepted like you might manage in a small village.
> 
> ...


First of all, I don't think its a matter of being lucky or whatnot... Actually, I would think that you would have to be unlucky not to be integrated if you want to, with the exception of several countries with other religious background or a 180º different culture (mainly probably Middle East)...

I have had several experiences living as an expat, and I have to say that it mostly depends on the ex-pat to feel integrated or be accepted wherever you live. I mean, it is not easy, but it certainly has to be with your attitude...

I lived in Germany, my native language is spanish, and when I arrived in Germany I met several people mostly from South America who spoke spanish, while they related with each other ONLY, and kept their circle closed, I maintained a very good relationship with them, but I was the one that took the initiative to know german people, and so I did... They were very friendly I still have most of these friends in Germany and we talk really often, and I mostly hung out with germans all the time I was in Germany, since I went there to learn the language and learn the culture they had.. That opened a lot of doors and it ultimately led to knowing them, feeling accepted and integrated.. But that was because I looked for my luck there... These South Americans, although really nice, they never stepped out of their circle, hence they never felt accepted or integrated, they didn't even spoke the language, while I speak it fairly good, and they never cared for their culture or their people.. That is a mistake most people do when they move to another country. Right now I am in Spain, 90% of my friends are spaniards and the other 10% are mexicans with their little circle of mexicans, they don't leave it and don't relate that much with spaniards (and they speak the same language.. figure that)... Again, I took a chance and it wasn't luck, it was the way I am... If you are going to live somewhere else, then you have to accept their culture, their regulations and their people, if not, then you will never feel nor will you be integrated with the locals.

The problem (honestly) with english-speaking people (mainly brits, americans) is that they know that english is spoken all around the world and they feel they don't need to learn their language, and that is their downfall... Most (not all) always give the impression that they don't care about the culture and they definitely don't even care about wanting to learn their language.. at least they give that impression, whether that is the impression they want to give or not...




> In 2005 my husband and I bought a large detached house in a pueblo blanco overlooking mountains and a cork-oak forest. Being 30 miles from the coast, it was incredibly cheap. We had no kids and had nearly paid off our mortgage in the UK so we planned to use it as a holiday home and eventually a place to retire to. As things turned out, we retired ten years early and moved over here permanently in 2008.
> 
> Why?
> Cost of living: We could not live on our employers' pensions and savings in the UK. Even after the recent price rises and fall in the value of sterling, it is still much cheaper to live here -provided you don't try and live an English lifestyle and hanker for English food and entertainment all the time. *And considering you are living in a small 5,000 inhabitant town, that will definitely lower the price costs and the cost of living, I don't know about the UK, but I would suspect that it is definitely cheaper living in a 5,000 inhabitant town than in London, Oxford or something of the sort... If you live in the city (Madrid, Barcelona, etc.) and want to enjoy some of the exhibitions, shows, go out for dinner, then you would realize it is as expensive as the UK (except probably for rent and cars and public transportation).. there are several other services that are even cheaper in the UK, like phone bills, TV, Internet (Adsl), electricity, natural gas, water).. You want to know how expensive it is to get a 2 bedroom flat in Madrid (downtown or nearby)? About 250,000 Euros for a 2 bedroom flat (60sqm)... 180,000 in the outskirts of Madrid. It always depend on where you want to live and the lifestyle you want to lead.*
> ...


It is nice that your experience here in Spain by far lives up to your expectations!! Keep on enjoying Spain!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> Integrated Brits  Got no problem with that. I'm not asking anyone to change nationality.
> 
> I guess we need a bottle of wine and set the scene and then a good old discussion. These forums just aren't the same as a good old chinwag
> 
> ...


Oh Nigel.....I get annoyed very easily, usually about totally trivial things. But Spain is teaching me that 'nada pasa....'..
Yes the car's gone. They got out of the 'box' .......with difficulty.
That kind of thoughtlessness winds me up. Anything like that which causes people unnecessary problems gets to me.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Maundler said:


> you would be surprised how many "stupid laws" as you call it are in Spain.. Way toooooo many... Although it is the same thing, it is well known that in a small town, people tend not to care for these "stupid laws", but if you are living in a normal city you would get a clue.


Maybe you're right, there is a strong tradition of anarchism here in south-west Andalucia!

But I still think that in general, Spain is much more libertarian than the UK - probably because she suffered forty years of fascist repression. You can do more or less what you like provided you aren't hurting anybody. The UK is different; the lovely countryside (what's left of it) is full of signs telling you you can't do this or that. Anything potentially dangerous is prohibited or fenced off in case somebody hurts themselves and decides to sue the council or whatever. 

For example, a few years ago in Oxford the police started to close Magdalen Bridge on May morning; for hundreds of years students had been jumping off the bridge into the river, but they suddenly decided it was too dangerous. So now nobody can get across the bridge into town for the Mayday celebrations; you have to go the long way round.

In Spain, the emphasis is on personal responsibility; if you are daft enough to want to run with bulls, you can - you know the risks. If you trip over a loose cobblestone, it's your own fault for not looking where you are going; you don't sue the Ayuntamiento. I'm convinced that this is a more healthy attitude, which encourages people to be more careful.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Maundler said:


> First of all, I don't think its a matter of being lucky or whatnot... Actually, I would think that you would have to be unlucky not to be integrated if you want to, with the exception of several countries with other religious background or a 180º different culture (mainly probably Middle East)...


Maybe you misunderstand me, I dont know. Maybe it's a question of what people believe integration to be.

I drink in Spanish bars (when we go to bars) I eat in Spanish restaurants, I respect their laws, embrace their culture and I speak as much Spanish as I can (but have let myself down this year with lessons). We shop in Spanish supermarkets for Spanish food, we use Spanish tradespeople and I socialise with my spanish neighbours

But I wouldnt say we are integrated. I know people who think they are, and maybe they are only doing the things we are, but they (and we) will always be an outsider. I have no Spanish family here that I can be involved with. I live in an area away from the main town and therefore my only native socialising is with my Spanish neigbours. If I were to try and break into circles in the town I might eventually be accepted as an outsider, but not as an "insider"


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## Maundler (Jul 30, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Maybe you're right, there is a strong tradition of anarchism here in south-west Andalucia!
> 
> But I still think that in general, Spain is much more libertarian than the UK - probably because she suffered forty years of fascist repression. You can do more or less what you like provided you aren't hurting anybody. The UK is different; the lovely countryside (what's left of it) is full of signs telling you you can't do this or that. Anything potentially dangerous is prohibited or fenced off in case somebody hurts themselves and decides to sue the council or whatever.
> 
> ...


I agree with you that there is a "kinda-culture" of suing everybody in the UK and US, that is true... And I have never liked that!! 

Anyway, as for Spain, let me say this... Yes, although Spain is a more libertarian country, that does not necessarily makes things bettet... there is a saying in Spanish that goes like this: "ni tanto que caliente el sol, ni tanto que no lo alumbre", it means that (literally) you want the sun just to heat up, not to burn or even to make you call... The meaning is that there shouldn't be extremes...

Let me put it to you this way.. we have the highest killing ratio on the highways by drunk drivers, the highest ratio of just dumb people being run over.. You might think that there are "stupid" laws in the UK... and while many of the ARE, some might just make the civilian a bit more civic... 

Spaniards (in general, not all of them) are not civil, and I am sorry to say this, but they are not, while we got drunk drivers (inspite of implementing tough laws now), Pretty annoying neighbors, which I can not do anything about it, unless I sue them, rude people, who doesn't care about the law that much.. Just bad-mannered people because spanish culture (mexican culture is the same way, don't think I am trashing Spain, we are just talking about this specific country) is "that way" and they are not civic.. and that is one thing I don't like... I don't like having to knock on my neighbor's door at 5:30 AM because he has a VERY LOUD party every weekend (and not just ONE day, from thursday to saturday), telling him that there are other people in the world, that it is just not him and that he can't do whatever he likes, to have a 13 YEAR OLD KID *PEEING* over the window to people passing by (and in a high-class neighborhood), to have a such un-civic population that don't care if they got a "walking-civilian-passing-way" and drive right through it, and SEVERAL other things...

I mean, there has to be a middle ground!! Spain is just really anarchic, and there are a lot of other "stupid" laws out there that nobody cares for and people are just as uncivic that I prefer to have laws tightened to see if they can realize how uncivic they are...

All in all, I like Spain, although I would want some more restrictions to un-civic behavior... I know there are stupid laws in the UK, but that probably has made you a bit more civic, at least that is the impression a lot of people have from the britons.. (except for the casual "hooligans" who go to spanish hotels and trash the rooms!!!  )


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> it's
> But I wouldnt say we are integrated. I know people who think they are, and maybe they are only doing the things we are, but they (and we) will always be an outsider. I have no Spanish family here that I can be involved with. I live in an area away from the main town and therefore my only native socialising is with my Spanish neigbours. If I were to try and break into circles in the town I might eventually be accepted as an outsider, but not as an "insider"


That sums up our experience. People like Pesky, Nigel and Tallulah are in a different category to the rest of us, as I said.
I am a British immigrant living in Spain, speaking Spanish, with Spanish friends and neighbours. Our other nearest immigrants are Germans who've been here for decades. 
99% of people who imagine they are integrated insiders are imo fooling themselves. It's harmless.....
Why would people want to deny their origins anyway?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Maundler said:


> .
> 
> Let me put it to you this way.. we have the highest killing ratio on the highways by drunk drivers, the highest ratio of just dumb people being run over..



Actually that is not true! Things have improved dramatically since the driving license points system was introduced in 2006. The fatality rate on Spain's roads is now *lower* than the European average:

http://www.mnt.ee/atp/failid/prstats.pdf


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> 99% of people who imagine they are integrated insiders are imo fooling themselves. It's harmless.....
> Why would people want to deny their origins anyway?


Exactly. Happy co-existence is good enough for me!


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> That sums up our experience. People like Pesky, Nigel and Tallulah are in a different category to the rest of us, as I said.
> I am a British immigrant living in Spain, speaking Spanish, with Spanish friends and neighbours. Our other nearest immigrants are Germans who've been here for decades.
> 99% of people who imagine they are integrated insiders are imo fooling themselves. It's harmless.....
> Why would people want to deny their origins anyway?


Quite right
I gave up a few of my previously announced plans when I got here, because I realised what living in Spain is actually like. Thats not to say I dislike it, it's just different to what I expected


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

'Every Spaniard's ideal is to carry
a statutory letter with a single
provision, brief but imperious:
"This Spaniard is entitled to do
whatever he feels like doing"'.

ANGEL GANIVET

I think this poem sums up neatly the anarchic strain that is inherent in the Spanish character.
Recently I discussed the 'nada pasa' culture with a Spanish acquaintance. His attitude was 'Si, nada pasa.....pero cuando pasa...'.
Yes, there's a relaxed attitude to rules and regulations and as I've found a lot depends on your attitude to authority and also on the mood the policeman/customs official/town hall bureaucrat happens to be in. But when the s*** hits the fan.. that's a different matter. No 'nada pasa' then.
I do agree with Alcalaina about the growing intrusiveness of the UK state but in the age of terrorism where governments are no longer in control, as we saw with the 9/11 and 7/7 attacks in NYC and London, I for one am prepared to trade security for privacy. I see the chief responsibility and function of the state as being a guarantor of peace and security.
As for the 'nanny state'....I often think that's a meaningless term, a bit like 'political correctness' which often boils down to nothing more than showing good manners and not airing your private prejudices in public.
I did get a bit annoyed though when on descending a staircase at Kings Cross underground station I saw a notice which told me that 'Running on the stairs may cause you to fall'. It was accompanied by a helpful diagram of a running and tumbling stick person.
But it didn't annoy me enough to make me want to write to The Daily Mail about it.
There are many many more issues to get worked up about in the UK, Spain...all over the world in fact.
I do agree about Tony Blair though. I used to think he walked on water......


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Maundler said:


> Spaniards (in general, not all of them) are not civil, and I am sorry to say this, but they are not, while we got drunk drivers (inspite of implementing tough laws now), Pretty annoying neighbors, which I can not do anything about it, unless I sue them, rude people, who doesn't care about the law that much.. Just bad-mannered people because spanish culture (mexican culture is the same way, don't think I am trashing Spain, we are just talking about this specific country) is "that way" and they are not civic.. and that is one thing I don't like... I don't like having to knock on my neighbor's door at 5:30 AM because he has a VERY LOUD party every weekend (and not just ONE day, from thursday to saturday), telling him that there are other people in the world, that it is just not him and that he can't do whatever he likes, to have a 13 YEAR OLD KID *PEEING* over the window to people passing by (and in a high-class neighborhood), to have a such un-civic population that don't care if they got a "walking-civilian-passing-way" and drive right through it, and SEVERAL other things...


That's horrible and I do sympathise, but I don't think bad neighbours are exclusive to Spain. If you had to choose between putting up with bad neighbours or living in a police state, what would you prefer?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> Quite right
> I gave up a few of my previously announced plans when I got here, because I realised what living in Spain is actually like. Thats not to say I dislike it, it's just different to what I expected


I still can't get over how different the experience of actually living in Prague was for me...after decades of very frequent visiting.
In a daft way I feel as if I were cheated....but the fault is mine, I know, for having this image of how it _should_ be..not how it was. I do feel disappointed though, with myself for being naive when I'm old enough to know better and with unrealistic images of a place that didn't fit my expectations.
I suspect an awful lot of British immigrants to Spain feel like that.


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

Definition
Social *integration *is the movement of minority groups into the mainstream of societies. Members of the minority groups thus gain full access to the opportunities, rights and services available to the members of the mainstream.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> That's horrible and I do sympathise, but I don't think bad neighbours are exclusive to Spain. If you had to choose between putting up with bad neighbours or living in a police state, what would you prefer?


Most people would answer : a police state, I suspect.
I have a feeling that if you had asked one hundred women in 1900 if they would rather have the vote or a vacuum cleaner, fridge and washing machine the huge majority would opt for the domestic appliances.
But I'm an old cynic (with years of political activity to blame).
Now....you're not suggesting that the UK is a police state, I hope??
If you are, you have obviously never spent time in any of the Soviet bloc countries (including the USSR as was) or, as Columbia, as I'm sure Pesky would agree.


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## Maundler (Jul 30, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> That's horrible and I do sympathise, but I don't think bad neighbours are exclusive to Spain. If you had to choose between putting up with bad neighbours or living in a police state, what would you prefer?


LOL... annoying neighbors are not just in Spain, but as I said, I would compare it even though I KNOW I shouldn't, but when I was in Germany when you got an annoying neighbor, they got a fair warning, the second time the police had to came and shut them up again, they would have to deal with a fine!! That calmed the neighbor down for quite a while... NOT IN SPAIN THOUGH.. the police came.. you know what they said to me??? he said: " I can give him a warning, but after the warning, if he keeps up with his party there is no much I can do, you can even "sue" him if you like but that would take ages to settle, so my advise to you is to go yourself to your neighbor and talk to him in a proper-manner, see if things cool down"... You can imagine my surprise when they told me the solution!!!

And as I said, I would rather like it to be a middle ground!! anyway, if you ask me if I prefer a "nanny" state or a non-civic state like Spain, I would have to go with the "nanny" state, I would not agree with many of the "stupid laws" around, but I don't think I would mind if things worked out better that way.. Because it is not just only bad neighbors, its a lot of other things...


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

> So, we all wanted to move to Spain at some point. Why? What is it we were expecting? Why did we think it would be better than being in the UK? Has it lived up to our expectations?


Move to Spain or escape from the 'nanny' state! 
For me it was the later. All the laws & regs being imposed on you and more & more taxes being demanded to maintain these laws. Laws which made you feel a second class citizen because they were giving more rights to ethnic minorities than to the indigenous population.


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## crc (Jul 4, 2010)

I want to move spain as it's where I'm origionally from, although I was only 4 when I moved to the uk so don't remember much. Although I do already own a property over there.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

JBODEN said:


> Definition
> Social *integration *is the movement of minority groups into the mainstream of societies. Members of the minority groups thus gain full access to the opportunities, rights and services available to the members of the mainstream.



As opposed to cultural *assimilation* - "a political response to the demographic fact of multi-ethnicity which encourages absorption of the minority into the dominant culture. It is opposed to affirmative philosophy (for example, multiculturalism) which recognizes and seeks to maintain differences." 

Much more sinister ...


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> Maybe you misunderstand me, I dont know. Maybe it's a question of what people believe integration to be.
> 
> I drink in Spanish bars (when we go to bars) I eat in Spanish restaurants, I respect their laws, embrace their culture and I speak as much Spanish as I can (but have let myself down this year with lessons). We shop in Spanish supermarkets for Spanish food, we use Spanish tradespeople and I socialise with my spanish neighbours
> 
> But I wouldnt say we are integrated. I know people who think they are, and maybe they are only doing the things we are, but they (and we) will always be an outsider. I have no Spanish family here that I can be involved with. I live in an area away from the main town and therefore my only native socialising is with my Spanish neigbours. If I were to try and break into circles in the town I might eventually be accepted as an outsider, but not as an "insider"


At the end of the day, and Englishman is an Englishman, period. You can only integrate so much. Bottom line, if you were in deep sh!t (house on fire, being attacked by a mad bull) would these people help Strav or would they look after number one?


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

Maundler said:


> LOL... annoying neighbors are not just in Spain, but as I said, I would compare it even though I KNOW I shouldn't, but when I was in Germany when you got an annoying neighbor, they got a fair warning, the second time the police had to came and shut them up again, they would have to deal with a fine!! That calmed the neighbor down for quite a while... NOT IN SPAIN THOUGH.. the police came.. you know what they said to me??? he said: " I can give him a warning, but after the warning, if he keeps up with his party there is no much I can do, you can even "sue" him if you like but that would take ages to settle, so my advise to you is to go yourself to your neighbor and talk to him in a proper-manner, see if things cool down"... You can imagine my surprise when they told me the solution!!!
> 
> And as I said, I would rather like it to be a middle ground!! anyway, if you ask me if I prefer a "nanny" state or a non-civic state like Spain, I would have to go with the "nanny" state, I would not agree with many of the "stupid laws" around, but I don't think I would mind if things worked out better that way.. Because it is not just only bad neighbors, its a lot of other things...


An interesting post given the recent coverage of the ASBO system in the UK. Believe me, nasty neighbours are nothing to do with loud party music. It can get a lot nastier than that. As for the Met or any other British police unit, I think you'll find that just like the Spanish, if they can't get them "at it", there's little they can do about it.

For the record thouh, legal sound levels (Decibel's) exist here as well as the UK. What people sometimes forget is that in order for the offcial route to start, a denuncia has to be made. The Police don't jump to attention just because someone phones them about a noicy neighbour. Thnigs like other neighbours backing your claims and joining your denuncia go a long way - as is the case in any civilised country. Imagine otherwise if you simply didn't like someone, or visa versa! Witch hunt or what


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

JBODEN said:


> Move to Spain or escape from the 'nanny' state!
> For me it was the later. All the laws & regs being imposed on you and more & more taxes being demanded to maintain these laws. Laws which made you feel a second class citizen because they were giving more rights to ethnic minorities than to the indigenous population.


Oh come off it Jerzy.... Give some specific examples to *prove *your point. And not from The Daily Mail.
I suspect you are referring to the laws forbidding discrimination in employment and provision of goods and services. These laws are incorporated in the EU Social Chapter and are enforced in all EU member states (including Poland).
Most of the stories you read in the right-wing meeja are just that...stories. Investigate further and they can be seen for what they are...fairy tales.
An example you'll find amusing: a Maul story alleged that Artur Boruc, Celtic's Polish goalkeeper, had been fined for making the sign of the cross....an example of bias against white Christians, fumed the Maul.
What actually happened: Boruc was cautioned for 'conduct likely to cause a breach of the peace' for making the sign in a provocative manner in front of a Rangers crowd at Ibrox. Quite right too, imo. This story is a sad comment on Scottish sectarianism, not political correctness.
I've dealt with a lot of casework involving acts of discrimination and prejudice that would take your breath away. All I can say is Thank God for these laws....it's no longer possible to deny someone a job because of their skin colour, nationality, age etc.etc.
Yes, extremists of all kinds get away with acts which should be prosecuted - Failure to take action over instances of Islamic extremism spring to mind.. But that's down to the police and DPP.
My ancestors like yours came to the UK as immigrants (Irish) and I'm sure they experienced hostility and discrimination just as many Poles did when they came after the War. I can remember the 'No coloureds No Irish No dogs' signs all too often seen accompanying 'Rooms to Let' signs.
These laws exist to protect white Christian Brits from discriminatory acts too, you know.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Actually that is not true! Things have improved dramatically since the driving license points system was introduced in 2006. The fatality rate on Spain's roads is now *lower* than the European average:
> 
> http://www.mnt.ee/atp/failid/prstats.pdf


Yes things have improved since the introduction of the points system BUT you can't believe it's as good as they say because they have learnt quickly how to manipulate figures & the ones they give out for accident statistics are only for us peasants; They do not include 'so called' professional drivers. This includes all lorry drivers, vans , couriers, buses, taxis, ambulance & fire brigade , police ,etc; etc. So any time yoe see an accident & it involves any of the above , it didn't happen & won't be in the statistics. See here.

DGT hiding the real truth of accident numbers | SpanishNews.es

I'd go with the annoying neighbours rather than a police state . It's easier to sort out the neighbours than a police state. 

That , imho, is nearly what the UK has become & one of the main reasons I left. They've got to the point where they think they are in charge rather than the public servants that they in fact are . Yes, I know they have to deal with scum everyday but it is their fault combined with the government for not cracking down far harder & much quicker on the criminals , drug dealers, illegals, anti-social mis-fits, etc. No , it's far easier to pick on the decent, law abiding, population with petty laws, fines for putting out bins on the wrong day, not re-cycling,all sorts of nonsensical motoring fines, the list is endless. They know the vast majority will pay up & it's far easier than tracking down real criminals.
While we are on the subject , I was brought up to respect the police & years ago I did but once I'd seen how many of them worked, & at a firm I worked for , what they got up to I gradually lost the respect & today how any one can have respect for a police force that still employs in excess of 1000 men that are convicted criminals, from gbh, assault, through to fraud & false accounting defies belief !

The 2nd reason I came here was the weather, followed by wanting a rest after working 80+ hrs , 7 days a week for 33 years . I can live here far more cheaply than would ever be possible in the UK. Total fixed costs , not inc. food , diesel & cigs. are 52€'s a week . Wouldn't cover my last council tax bill in the UK !

Where I live it's more like how it was in the UK 40 years ago when I was growing up, yes it's gradually catching up & at a faster rate than alot of people can cope with. It's not much over 20 years since they got rid of Franco.

Integration, hmmm, I've no idea really . I wouldn't say that I'm integrated even though I work with spaniards , have to speak spanish ( badly !! ) all day , all my neighbours are spanish , I use spanish bars ( their aren't any others ) I'm accepted by everyone & treated well but even though some of them consider that I'm 'honorary spanish' I don't think i'm integrated yet. I'll give it another 20 years I think .:clap2: Then again , I don't think I was integrated in the UK ?


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Oh come off it Jerzy.... [_*see Gus-Lopez, above*_]
> 
> My ancestors like yours came to the UK as immigrants (Irish) and I'm sure they experienced hostility and discrimination just as many Poles did when they came after the War.


In the case of the Poles, it was of their own volition; after the Polish fighter pilots gained a good reputation at the Battle of Britain the Polish Government in Exile then had the temerity to criticize Churchill accusing him of collusion in the death, in Gibraltar, of General Sikorski .


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

That , imho, is nearly what the UK has become & one of the main reasons I left. They've got to the point where they think they are in charge rather than the public servants that they in fact are . Yes, I know they have to deal with scum everyday but it is their fault combined with the government for not cracking down far harder & much quicker on the criminals , drug dealers, illegals, anti-social mis-fits, etc. No , it's far easier to pick on the decent, law abiding, population with petty laws, fines for putting out bins on the wrong day, not re-cycling,all sorts of nonsensical motoring fines, the list is endless. They know the vast majority will pay up & it's far easier than tracking down real criminals.
While we are on the subject , I was brought up to respect the police & years ago I did but once I'd seen how many of them worked, & at a firm I worked for , what they got up to I gradually lost the respect & today how any one can have respect for a police force that still employs in excess of 1000 men that are convicted criminals, from gbh, assault, through to fraud & false accounting defies belief !

QUOTE..Gus Lopez

Whenever we had problems -as we often did - with police taking action regarding break-ins and other kinds of theft at our business premises we had to waste a lot of time pestering, reminding, cajoling and sometimes threatening before something was done.
Most of this was down to the attitude of individual police officers. Sometimes stupid magistrates were too lenient with offenders that we knew were nasty little b******s and not poor, misunderstood adolescents.
Sometimes we took the law into our own hands when collecting outstanding debts, sometimes to the value of £000s. I will say no more about that except the phrase 'We know where you live' was often heard from our lips and we employed big, muscly men. If we had just let people get away with not paying their bills we'd have been bankrupt and our employees out of work.
It was hard to pinpoint where the blame actually lay but it seemed to me to come down in the end to the professionalism of individual officers rather than 'human rights' laws (which are often blamed by people who have no idea of what they actually entail).
Social workers who are either overworked, have no knowledge of the 'real' world or both can also be a pain in the a***.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

JBODEN said:


> In the case of the Poles, it was of their own volition; after the Polish fighter pilots gained a good reputation at the Battle of Britain the Polish Government in Exile then had the temerity to criticize Churchill accusing him of collusion in the death, in Gibraltar, of General Sikorski .


My ancestors came of their own volition too although they were a wild, rough lot and Ireland was probably glad to see the back of them
What you say about Sikorski is interesting. I read a thought-provoking book by that Nazi sympathiser David Irving (can't remember what it was called) about that.
He seemed to make a good case for Churchill's complicity. Sikorski was being a thorn in the side of the Allies by rightly insisting on Soviet guilt for the Katyn massacre thus alienating Stalin who was pressurising the Allies to expedite the Dunkirk landings.. So Churchill had a good reason for wanting him silenced. Interesting that the only survivor of the crash was the Czech pilot Edward Prchal.....
I don't know what to believe.
I might order that book from Amazon.

Have just googled...it'sw called 'Accident: the Death of General Sikorski'. No need to order it, it's a free download, like all of his books. After losing a libel case he was bankrupted.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

"flippin' eck" theres nowt like a bit of thread drift is there LOLOL!!!!!!!

Jo xxx


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> My ancestors came of their own volition too although they were a wild, rough lot and Ireland was probably glad to see the back of them
> What you say about Sikorski is interesting. I read a thought-provoking book by that Nazi sympathiser David Irving (can't remember what it was called) about that.
> He seemed to make a good case for Churchill's complicity. Sikorski was being a thorn in the side of the Allies by rightly insisting on Soviet guilt for the Katyn massacre thus alienating Stalin who was pressurising the Allies to expedite the Dunkirk landings.. So Churchill had a good reason for wanting him silenced. Interesting that the only survivor of the crash was the Czech pilot Edward Prchal.....
> I don't know what to believe.
> ...


1. Ulster or Eire? 
2. Dunkirk? I assume you mean Normandy. 
3. Conspiracy theories Now Poland has another, the plane which crashed near Katyn killing the Polish President and approx. 100 other high dignitaries. Was it the Russians or the Polish Govt. (the fact that the plane was old, without auto navigation, and that the airport was shrouded in dense fog had absolutely nothing to do with it):focus:


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> "flippin' eck" theres nowt like a bit of thread drift is there LOLOL!!!!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Sorry jojo, but I applaude you for starting this post!:clap2:


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

JBODEN said:


> Sorry jojo, but I applaude you for starting this post!:clap2:



Hey, I dont mind at all. A bit of thread drift when its a fairly non descriptive title and I started it doesnt matter!!! 

Just be nice !!!! 

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

JBODEN said:


> 1. Ulster or Eire?
> 2. Dunkirk? I assume you mean Normandy.
> 3. Conspiracy theories Now Poland has another, the plane which crashed near Katyn killing the Polish President and approx. 100 other high dignitaries. Was it the Russians or the Polish Govt. (the fact that the plane was old, without auto navigation, and that the airport was shrouded in dense fog had absolutely nothing to do with it):focus:


1)Eire
2) Yes, I meant Normandy of course
3) Yes I read that. There was a long article in the German magazine 'Stern' on that.
4) OK, Jo...and Jerzy...point taken:focus:


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2010)

Stravinsky said:


> Unless you have Spanish family here I truly dont believe you can achieve the integration thing. You might think you have, but it's probably not so.
> 
> Its a difficult thing to achieve. We dont go to english bars or restaurants, we attend a lot of fiestas, we use Spanish tradespeople, but Oliva is a big town. You cant just go down there and become accepted like you might manage in a small village.
> 
> ...


Yes! This is exactly the way I see it too. I did live in Spain for about 10 years, do speak a quite decent Spanish but I am only integrated in an expat population who does speak English, German and French. For the Spaniard I am just accepted as a foreigner, even if, some of them, are very friendly to us. Also, I do not know any foreigner who came here as an adult and did ever told me he could integrate in the Spanish society – this doesn’t mean that there are none existing, but…. It always means what you consider being integrated.
But, our 6 years old son is totally integrated, and if we stay here he will probably feel like a Spaniard, even considering the fact that he has Asian features.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Most people would answer : a police state, I suspect.
> I have a feeling that if you had asked one hundred women in 1900 if they would rather have the vote or a vacuum cleaner, fridge and washing machine the huge majority would opt for the domestic appliances.
> But I'm an old cynic (with years of political activity to blame).
> Now....you're not suggesting that the UK is a police state, I hope??
> If you are, you have obviously never spent time in any of the Soviet bloc countries (including the USSR as was) or, as Columbia, as I'm sure Pesky would agree.


No, I'm not suggesting that the UK is a police state, but I believe it is moving in that direction. The criminal justice bill, the number of surveillance cameras (highest in Europe I believe), the "grass-thy-neighbour" phone lines for social security fraud (where is the number for income tax fraud?), reductions in civil liberties in the name of anti-terrorism legislation ... it all gives me the shivers, sorry.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> No, I'm not suggesting that the UK is a police state, but I believe it is moving in that direction. The criminal justice bill, the number of surveillance cameras (highest in Europe I believe), the "grass-thy-neighbour" phone lines for social security fraud (where is the number for income tax fraud?), reductions in civil liberties in the name of anti-terrorism legislation ... it all gives me the shivers, sorry.



Maybe, but the what happens when the police "catch" their criminals in the UK????? Very little!!! So they can watch, monitor and reduce civil liberties as much as they like. In the end human rights rears its head and nothing happens!

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> No, I'm not suggesting that the UK is a police state, but I believe it is moving in that direction. The criminal justice bill, the number of surveillance cameras (highest in Europe I believe), the "grass-thy-neighbour" phone lines for social security fraud (where is the number for income tax fraud?), reductions in civil liberties in the name of anti-terrorism legislation ... it all gives me the shivers, sorry.


I think the UK has a long way to go before it catches up with the old Soviet bloc states, some Latin American dictatorships, some of the post-Communist states in Central Asia, Burma, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia (for women), Turkey etc.etc. We really shouldn't exaggerate as it trivialises the state of affairs in true police states.. ..The UK is still a great place to live as many of the immigrants who don't make it here find out when they return to the UK and are obliged to seek Government assistance as many are.
I don't like the grass-your-neighbour phone lines for shopping welfare cheats (I don't like welfare cheats either, they make people genuinely in need feel unnecessarily ashamed but no way could I shop them) and I really do agree with you about tax fraud. If wealthy tax avoiders were made to pay up and loopholes closed the sum recouped would dwarf the amount defrauded from the DHSS or whatever it's now called.
But at the end of the day what is the prime duty of the state if not to be a guarantor of security for its citizens? Surveillance cameras don't bother me, being blown up when I ride the tube in London does. Civil liberties can only exist and have meaning in a state of security and peace - that's why they are suspended during wartime. We are at war,alas, with extremists acting in the name of Islam....largely due to the actions of our own Government we have all become front-line targets. 
The amount of information held on us already by private companies is mind-blowing. A friend once received a letter from Tesco reminding her that she had bought a jar of Hollandaise sauce a week or two previously which was subject to recall. She has a Tesco Loyalty card. All information relating to purchases is stored for analysis so if you drink Australian red for example you will be told of any special offers.
I have had first-hand albeit comparatively gentle experience of a police state - being prevented from leaving one Communist country - thrown off a train at a border by armed soldiers, frantic dashes to British Embassies to obtain exit visas -and being kept there for two weeks before getting permission to leave-and I can tell you the UK is nowhere near to deserving that description.
I trust it never will be.


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## crc (Jul 4, 2010)

jojo said:


> "flippin' eck" theres nowt like a bit of thread drift is there LOLOL!!!!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


I answered your origional question but it got swallowed up. lol


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

jojo said:


> Maybe, but the what happens when the police "catch" their criminals in the UK????? Very little!!! So they can watch, monitor and reduce civil liberties as much as they like. In the end human rights rears its head and nothing happens!
> 
> Jo xxx


Exactly Jo, & the only ones hauled through the courts are the taxpaying generally law -abiding ,public whilst the criminals ,druggies, illegals just give 'em the finger & laugh. They say it costs more to keep a person in prison for a year ( about 40k ) than to put a child through Eton. I 'd cut that down to just over a hundred pounds a year using ' Sherrif Joes' methods. The human rights act could have been written to cover problems like this not to cover everything so that it's not possible to do anything about anyone without it affecting someones 'human rights'. What about the rights of the victims ? 
Somethings got to give it certainly can't continue in the same manner otherwise I can see civil unrest coming up.
Joe Arpaio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> Exactly Jo, & the only ones hauled through the courts are the taxpaying generally law -abiding ,public whilst the criminals ,druggies, illegals just give 'em the finger & laugh. They say it costs more to keep a person in prison for a year ( about 40k ) than to put a child through Eton. I 'd cut that down to just over a hundred pounds a year using ' Sherrif Joes' methods. The human rights act could have been written to cover problems like this not to cover everything so that it's not possible to do anything about anyone without it affecting someones 'human rights'. What about the rights of the victims ?
> Somethings got to give it certainly can't continue in the same manner otherwise I can see civil unrest coming up.
> Joe Arpaio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


That Arpaio guy is nuts and seemingly a crook himself, though. Sounds like a right little Nazi. I've read about him before.
Have you actually read the Human Rights Act? Most of the most glaring injustices in the UK have nothing to do with the HRA. They are down to foolish Acts of Parliament or stupid out-of-touch judges and at a lower level bleeding heart magistrates..
The most high-profile use of the HRA in the UK was when it was used by the pro-hunting lobby.
It's true that something needs to be done to make detection more certain and punishment more severe but adopting brutal methods reminiscient of a Soviet Gulag or a Nazi concentration camp won't help.


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## adiep (Jan 10, 2010)

jojo said:


> So, we all wanted to move to Spain at some point. Why? ...


I never wanted to move to Spain, never struck me as an ambition, however I was offered a job in Gibraltar and having spent the previous 18 months in Swindon I decided that literally anything would be better.

Turns out that I was right.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

crc said:


> I answered your origional question but it got swallowed up. lol



Sometimes there are threads that disappear into a sea of digressions! Sometimes it can be annoying. but cos this thread hasnt got a definitive title and I started it, well, what the heck. Its nice to put the world right sometimes lol!!!!!!! 

Jo xxx


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> That Arpaio guy is nuts and seemingly a crook himself, though. Sounds like a right little Nazi. I've read about him before.
> Have you actually read the Human Rights Act? Most of the most glaring injustices in the UK have nothing to do with the HRA. They are down to foolish Acts of Parliament or stupid out-of-touch judges and at a lower level bleeding heart magistrates..
> The most high-profile use of the HRA in the UK was when it was used by the pro-hunting lobby.
> It's true that something needs to be done to make detection more certain and punishment more severe but adopting brutal methods reminiscient of a Soviet Gulag or a Nazi concentration camp won't help.


Yes, but can you believe it! You only have to look at the officer in Middlesborough who instituted a policy of zero tolerance for both criminals & his own officers who ended up being accused of everything & anything, suspended on full pay for years , only for it to be found that most were brought about by people with ulterior motives & he was whiter than white. Trouble is he'd had enough & took his pension & went.


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## morlandg (Jun 8, 2008)

*Ray M....*



gus-lopez said:


> Yes, but can you believe it! You only have to look at the officer in Middlesborough who instituted a policy of zero tolerance for both criminals & his own officers who ended up being accused of everything & anything, suspended on full pay for years , only for it to be found that most were brought about by people with ulterior motives & he was whiter than white. Trouble is he'd had enough & took his pension & went.


...and became Mayor of Middlesbrough!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> Yes, but can you believe it! You only have to look at the officer in Middlesborough who instituted a policy of zero tolerance for both criminals & his own officers who ended up being accused of everything & anything, suspended on full pay for years , only for it to be found that most were brought about by people with ulterior motives & he was whiter than white. Trouble is he'd had enough & took his pension & went.


I am a firm believer in zero tolerance. That New York City Police Chief , William Bratton I think he was called,concentrated on so-called low-level crime (broken windows, graffiti, smashed street lamps) and cut serious crime by a huge amount. NYC became one of America's safest cities.
Years ago when I was a Councillor the Chief Constable of our County asked citizens to say what they wanted from their police force. So we visited every house in our area and asked people. No surprise to find that most people wanted an end to anti-social behaviour, vandalism, noise etc. They said they didn't feel like reporting more serious crimes or helping the police as the police did sod all for them.
Which reminds me of a true story about Lena Jeger who was MP for Holborn in the 1950s and 60s.. 
She was canvassing in a council estate in the late 1950s and asked a woman resident if she would vote for her and help stop German rearmament. 
'There's people pissing in this lift', complained the woman.
'Well, I don't think there's much I can do about that' replied Lena.
'If you can't stop people pissing in the lift how are you going to stop the Germans rearming?' retorted the woman.
There's a lot in that story applicable to today.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> I am a firm believer in zero tolerance. That New York City Police Chief , William Bratton I think he was called,concentrated on so-called low-level crime (broken windows, graffiti, smashed street lamps) and cut serious crime by a huge amount. NYC became one of America's safest cities.
> Years ago when I was a Councillor the Chief Constable of our County asked citizens to say what they wanted from their police force. So we visited every house in our area and asked people. No surprise to find that most people wanted an end to anti-social behaviour, vandalism, noise etc. They said they didn't feel like reporting more serious crimes or helping the police as the police did sod all for them.
> Which reminds me of a true story about Lena Jeger who was MP for Holborn in the 1950s and 60s..
> She was canvassing in a council estate in the late 1950s and asked a woman resident if she would vote for her and help stop German rearmament.
> ...


What on earth has happened if a society even think of having a piss in a lift, let alone thinking its acceptable?????

Jo xx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> What on earth has happened if a society even think of having a piss in a lift, let alone thinking its acceptable?????
> 
> Jo xx


Central London is a giant open-air urinal. 
It stinks most mornings, especially at weekends.
But then public urination is commonplace all over Europe.
And more.....every morning when we walk Azor by the rio we are treated to the sight of a guy with his trousers down having a c*** on the opposite bank. 
The first time we saw him Azor charged over to him and he had to make a hasty and unexpected retreat.
We used to see that sort of thing all the time in the CR.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Central London is a giant open-air urinal.
> It stinks most mornings, especially at weekends.
> But then public urination is commonplace all over Europe.
> And more.....every morning when we walk Azor by the rio we are treated to the sight of a guy with his trousers down having a c*** on the opposite bank.
> ...


Yes, having a public pony seems to be quite common in Spain. I see the results from time to time. uke:

My two dogs ran over to a chap doing a Richard in the bushes once - it was quite amusing to watch him trying to pull up his trousers in mid strain. He looked a bit annoyed... :noidea:


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Well we certainly don't see people doing their business in the street here in the pueblo where I live. On the other hand it is ankle-deep in dog**** sometimes ... but that's another matter!

Seriously though, there is very little anti-social behaviour here. I think it's because it is a small community (a town of 5,000 people) where everyone knows or is related to everyone else. Everybody keeps an eye on other people's kids and wouldn't think twice about reprimanding them if they saw them misbehaving. I wondered if it was the influence of the Church but as far as I can tell, Nuestra Señora is the only one they bother about and she doesn´t go round condemning people to hellfire.

One thing is certain, our Policia Local have a very easy time! Long may it remain thus.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

In london it can cost 50p to have a p***. And 20 to 30p in stations while you wait for a delayed train (OK much less delays these days). No wonder people look for other resources.

Breathing and peeing should be free 

Mary at least your politician of the 50s was honest. Germany didn't rearm and the lift still smells


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Well we certainly don't see people doing their business in the street here in the pueblo where I live. On the other hand it is ankle-deep in dog**** sometimes ... but that's another matter!
> 
> Seriously though, there is very little anti-social behaviour here. I think it's because it is a small community (a town of 5,000 people) where everyone knows or is related to everyone else. Everybody keeps an eye on other people's kids and wouldn't think twice about reprimanding them if they saw them misbehaving. I wondered if it was the influence of the Church but as far as I can tell, Nuestra Señora is the only one they bother about and she doesn´t go round condemning people to hellfire.
> 
> One thing is certain, our Policia Local have a very easy time! Long may it remain thus.


Ours is a comparatively small community and people certainly don't defecate and urinate in public in the village (not that I've observed!) but on the campo....I must admit I've occasionally had to pee in the bushes myself...
No-one picks up after their dogs and that infuriates me as Our Little Azor rarely defecates in a public place -we have a large garden - and if he does, we pick up. 
No anti-social behaviour either....apart from one incident last year when an English group rented a place nearby and returned home drunk at 03.00 whereupon a woman in the group screamed obscenities non-stop at the top of her voice from the roof for over thirty minutes. Someone had evidently vexed her.....It was quite an impressive performance for those not easily shocked. Then the police came.
There are no young people or children in our immediate neighbourhood. In the five years since leaving the UK I haven't encountered feral youth whether here or in Prague. Wonderful. I wonder what they do to suppress them?
You're right, the BVM has always been merciful. Unlike other luminaries of the Church....
Our local Policia.....well, we once came across two of them fast asleep in their car hidden away in a remote part of the campo. Another pair were spotted on the dunes by the beach, leaning against the car smoking and ogling bikini-clad women.
I was fined -heftily -four times in our first year in Prague, only one of which was a real offence. (Going through a red light in a hurry to get home and watch England play in the 2006 World Cup). I've broken traffic laws twice here and each time no action was taken.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> In london it can cost 50p to have a p***. And 20 to 30p in stations while you wait for a delayed train (OK much less delays these days). No wonder people look for other resources.
> 
> Breathing and peeing should be free
> 
> Mary at least your politician of the 50s was honest. Germany didn't rearm and the lift still smells


Yes, Lena Jeger was a good local MP, from what I heard from locals in Holborn and St.Pancras. One of the old school.
Amsterdam has those portable urinals they bring out at weekends and special occasions which is great for men but useless for women.
Now there's a sexist denial of a basic human right.........


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> Amsterdam has those portable urinals they bring out at weekends and special occasions which is great for men but useless for women.
> Now there's a sexist denial of a basic human right.........


......... for which the solution would be??????????? 

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> ......... for which the solution would be???????????
> 
> Jo xxx


If human ingenuity can put a man on the moon it surely can come up with a solution???
The obvious is portable sit-down loos.
It is said that Viginia Woolf once peed from the window of a train using a rolled-up copy of The Times........


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> If human ingenuity can put a man on the moon it surely can come up with a solution???
> The obvious is portable sit-down loos.
> It is said that Viginia Woolf once peed from the window of a train using a rolled-up copy of The Times........



nice!!!  I guess god was a man afterall!!!! I'm still reeling that people would pee in lifts LOL!!!

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> nice!!!  I guess god was a man afterall!!!! I'm still reeling that people would pee in lifts LOL!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


You've led a sheltered life!!! 
That's one of the hazards of living in a multi-storey block, I guess!
Probably the same in high-rise apartment blocks here in places like Benidorm etc.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

nigele2 said:


> Breathing and peeing should be free


Is Britain the only country in Europe where you can't go into a bar or cafe and ask to use the loo without having to buy a drink? And why do they lock public loos at night? (Actually I know the answer to that ... don't bother replying!)


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> Is Britain the only country in Europe where you can't go into a bar or cafe and ask to use the loo without having to buy a drink?


Officially maybe, but I've done that here in Spain more times than I can remember!!

Jo xxx


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

Apparently in England the latest thing is a Sheewee................ Being promoted as an essential accessory for female police officers out on the beat where public facilities are not always available.

Mrs Dunmovin (my OH wanted nothing to do with this reply)!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

dunmovin said:


> Apparently in England the latest thing is a Sheewee................ Being promoted as an essential accessory for female police officers out on the beat where public facilities are not always available.
> 
> Mrs Dunmovin (my OH wanted nothing to do with this reply)!


Is that the device that was featured on 'Dragon's Den'?


(I'm watching Spurs disgrace themselves.......things can only get better in the second half....can't they?)


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## JustinTime (Aug 11, 2010)

jojo said:


> Hey, I dont mind at all. A bit of thread drift when its a fairly non descriptive title and I started it doesnt matter!!!
> 
> Just be nice !!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Back on message Jojo )

When I am getting ready to leave a country and go back to the UK I start seeing all the positives of the UK. Me thinks you might be swayin to not stayin?

Basically I see where I am leaving as crap and where I am going as paradise. Mostly when I get where I am going I miss where I have come from and compare it daily! Except that has not happened this time so I am thinking I may have grown out of that !!??!!

I remember leaving Australia and getting back to the UK in spring and it was freezing and snowing. I won't do that again in a hurry. It was so grim in the UK this year lots of people in my office were talking about buying SAD lamps!!! and we are talking people in their 20's or 30's. I even found myself looking at one in B&Q or somewhere! My OH was calling me to leave but I couldn't leave the lamp, 'look into the light, look into the light' alas it just left me with a blind spot while walking through the store.

Another thing this year was the cost of gas/electricity. I think we paid 3k for a year of either gas or electric. That plus 2.5K council tax it was very expensive.

So after all of that there is no deep and meaningful reason for our move, if the sun shines and someone fills my glass I will be happy. I may even fill it myself from time to time who knows ) 

Personally I think sometimes it best to go back to the UK, regroup and enjoy it and if you get itchy feet in the future you can always do it again, or go somewhere else.

If my pool and electricity that keeps tripping doesn't get sorted I might start reminiscing those cosy cloudy days and the comforting noise of rain running down the window in the UK etc etc


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

JustinTime said:


> Back on message Jojo )
> 
> When I am getting ready to leave a country and go back to the UK I start seeing all the positives of the UK. Me thinks you might be swayin to not stayin?
> 
> ...


Thank you Justin!!! Having met you and your OH yesterday, you know that I maybe stayin' not swayin' !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As for your electricity. I dont think you were at the table when they were discussing it with your mrs!!!??? Its all to do with the potenti.......... potentiomet..... thing???!. I cant remember what its called, but it has to be set to your requirements!!??? Someone?? Anyone????

Jo xxx


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

......... hey up, big thunderstorm, lotsa rain, better get the washing in!!!!

Jo xxxx


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## JustinTime (Aug 11, 2010)

jojo said:


> Thank you Justin!!! Having met you and your OH yesterday, you know that I maybe stayin' not swayin' !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> As for your electricity. I dont think you were at the table when they were discussing it with your mrs!!!??? Its all to do with the potenti.......... potentiomet..... thing???!. I cant remember what its called, but it has to be set to your requirements!!??? Someone?? Anyone????
> 
> Jo xxx


Austin came back to our place and had a look at it and confirmed that's what it is. The Electrician is coming out this week to have a look so hopefully it will get sorted. I am sure though that the plumber, locks smith and sparky are all the same person in a different hat. Did you get your tortoise?


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

JustinTime said:


> Austin came back to our place and had a look at it and confirmed that's what it is. The Electrician is coming out this week to have a look so hopefully it will get sorted. I am sure though that the plumber, locks smith and sparky are all the same person in a different hat. Did you get your tortoise?


The way it works up here is, you have a contract with the company for a supply of X Kw's maximum at any one time. They then put in a trip with the amps set at that value. Our switch is 20 Amps, so we get 4.3 Kw before it trips. I'm told that 4.5Kw won't trip it as they're not that sensitive but if you want more than 4.5Kw, you need to go to 25Amps etc., thus, a higher contract level and so, yes, a bigger cost on that side of the bill.

So, if you can work out how much your parallel useage is likely to be and get a resistor to be put in to allow just above that, and tell the wife not to put the kettle on whilst you've got the 2.5Kw leaf blower on in the garden + the electric hob and oven are doing sunday rost etc., you should be OK 

The bad news is that to have your resistor upgraded is a change of contract and has a cost, quite appart from the monthly slight increase thereafter. No surprises there then. Also, if you go past the magic 10Kw level, you are then not automatically included in the "protected pricing" system of the government and could end up having to deal directly with the company for "best price".


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> Is that the device that was featured on 'Dragon's Den'?
> 
> 
> (I'm watching Spurs disgrace themselves.......things can only get better in the second half....can't they?)


as much as I want to distnace myself from this thread, my dear wife decided to comment. I have no idea of what she is talking about other than it WAS shown on "dragon's den"


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

JustinTime said:


> Austin came back to our place and had a look at it and confirmed that's what it is. The Electrician is coming out this week to have a look so hopefully it will get sorted. I am sure though that the plumber, locks smith and sparky are all the same person in a different hat. Did you get your tortoise?


Yes, we've got our tortoise!!! "Squishy" is his name When we got him home, we put him down in our rock garden and I kid you not, that thing ran at the speed of light and hid under a bolder and that seems to be where he stayed! We put water and some lettuce nearby for him, which I assumed he's eaten - well something has!! We saw him last night wandering around his new home and he seems happy enough????? My dogs want to "meet" him, but not a good idea just yet!!!

Jo xxx


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## JustinTime (Aug 11, 2010)

Xose said:


> The way it works up here is, you have a contract with the company for a supply of X Kw's maximum at any one time. They then put in a trip with the amps set at that value. Our switch is 20 Amps, so we get 4.3 Kw before it trips. I'm told that 4.5Kw won't trip it as they're not that sensitive but if you want more than 4.5Kw, you need to go to 25Amps etc., thus, a higher contract level and so, yes, a bigger cost on that side of the bill.
> 
> So, if you can work out how much your parallel useage is likely to be and get a resistor to be put in to allow just above that, and tell the wife not to put the kettle on whilst you've got the 2.5Kw leaf blower on in the garden + the electric hob and oven are doing sunday rost etc., you should be OK
> 
> The bad news is that to have your resistor upgraded is a change of contract and has a cost, quite appart from the monthly slight increase thereafter. No surprises there then. Also, if you go past the magic 10Kw level, you are then not automatically included in the "protected pricing" system of the government and could end up having to deal directly with the company for "best price".



It seems to be if we have say the oven and a hob on or perhaps the kettle at the same time as the pool pump is running. If the aircon is on and any appliance that would do it too. Is that normal do you think? I can't think how people would cook with it tripping all of the time, if I am making pasta I would make the sauce in the house and the pasta on the gas hob in the garden ) Christmas dinner will be fun, I might start asking for restaurant recommendations now...


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

JustinTime said:


> It seems to be if we have say the oven and a hob on or perhaps the kettle at the same time as the pool pump is running. If the aircon is on and any appliance that would do it too. Is that normal do you think? I can't think how people would cook with it tripping all of the time, if I am making pasta I would make the sauce in the house and the pasta on the gas hob in the garden ) Christmas dinner will be fun, I might start asking for restaurant recommendations now...



In our old house we couldnt have the oil radiator on at the same time as the oven and dishwasher!!! Until my OH changed some fuse or something???!!!

Jo xxx


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Xose said:


> The way it works up here is, you have a contract with the company for a supply of X Kw's maximum at any one time. They then put in a trip with the amps set at that value. Our switch is 20 Amps, so we get 4.3 Kw before it trips. I'm told that 4.5Kw won't trip it as they're not that sensitive but if you want more than 4.5Kw, you need to go to 25Amps etc., thus, a higher contract level and so, yes, a bigger cost on that side of the bill.
> 
> So, if you can work out how much your parallel useage is likely to be and get a resistor to be put in to allow just above that, and tell the wife not to put the kettle on whilst you've got the 2.5Kw leaf blower on in the garden + the electric hob and oven are doing sunday rost etc., you should be OK
> 
> The bad news is that to have your resistor upgraded is a change of contract and has a cost, quite appart from the monthly slight increase thereafter. No surprises there then. Also, if you go past the magic 10Kw level, you are then not automatically included in the "protected pricing" system of the government and could end up having to deal directly with the company for "best price".


The other thing is where they are if it's Endesa they wont just upgrade your contract , they'll want a new 'boletin' stating that the electrics are up to post -2006 standards & if they're not they'll have to be upgraded at your expense before you'll get the increased supply. They're up to all sorts of tricks at the moment apparently.


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> The other thing is where they are if it's Endesa they wont just upgrade your contract , they'll want a new 'boletin' stating that the electrics are up to post -2006 standards & if they're not they'll have to be upgraded at your expense before you'll get the increased supply. They're up to all sorts of tricks at the moment apparently.


Yeah sorry, that to. But we have a 2007 record in Industria up to 10Kw so wouldn't be a problem - but yes, if you don't or Industria don't have such a thing, or it's an old installation. a Homologado by them electrician will have to inspect and issue the all clear. Forgot about that cash stream  - though I have seen some installations here where that is in fact a must have to stop the house burning down


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## natalieml (May 9, 2010)

My youngest really really wants a tortoise when we are there. Where did you get yours from and how much was it.

Does it still have to hibernate in winter there or is it warm enough to not hibernate?



jojo said:


> Yes, we've got our tortoise!!! "Squishy" is his name When we got him home, we put him down in our rock garden and I kid you not, that thing ran at the speed of light and hid under a bolder and that seems to be where he stayed! We put water and some lettuce nearby for him, which I assumed he's eaten - well something has!! We saw him last night wandering around his new home and he seems happy enough????? My dogs want to "meet" him, but not a good idea just yet!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

natalieml said:


> My youngest really really wants a tortoise when we are there. Where did you get yours from and how much was it.
> 
> Does it still have to hibernate in winter there or is it warm enough to not hibernate?


Someone found him in their garden, their dogs were hassling him, so we offered to have him. I believe they're "wild" here, so if you're vigilant you may find one in the undergrowth somewhere??? I dont know about the hibernating etc yet!!???? We've only had him a few days!

Jo xxx


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## natalieml (May 9, 2010)

We saw baby tortoises in Morocco for €20 but couldnt bring it back. In the UK they are listed as endangered so they are around £500.



jojo said:


> Someone found him in their garden, their dogs were hassling him, so we offered to have him. I believe they're "wild" here, so if you're vigilant you may find one in the undergrowth somewhere??? I dont know about the hibernating etc yet!!???? We've only had him a few days!
> 
> Jo xxx


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Just dredging the depths of my memory, we had some friends who when they came to spain brought 2 tortoises with them . Turned out that they where male & female & after a couple of years they had 3 babies , about the size of a 1 euro coin. They'd never shown any sign of breeding in the UK in 30 years !! By the way they are a protected species here & I don't know if you can buy & sell them.


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