# Portugal vs. Spain



## titania

Hi Everyone and Happy New Year 

I am due to retire in Feb 2014 and I'm debating the pros and cons of retiring to Spain vs. Portugal. I've put my house for sale yesterday, and hopefully it will get sold before next year. I'm an EU national.

I've known the north, east and west of Spain for a long time, I even have a Catalan tio. Last summer I went to the Costa del Sol, extreme south and east, and I really liked it.

However a friend told me that I should also look at Portugal because my pension money would go further. My pension (foreign, not UK, not France) would be 38'000 euros p/y, but it would be taxed.

The thing is, I have never been to Portugal.

I'm a city girl with country yearnings, i.e. a big house (say 150 sq.meters) with a garden (say 500 sq.meters) and an aviary in a large town suburb, preferably with a well and solar hot water, but near enough to get the advantages of a big city. I like eating out 2-3 times a week, drive a decent size car and I like to live with all mods/cons in my house. I'm not a spend-thrift on luxuries or clothing though. I don't drink nor do I do any drugs. I cook and I don't buy ready-made meals.

This below is what I liked about Spain, the stretch from Malaga to Gibraltar. How does it compare to Portugal? Would it be worth it spending some holiday time in Portugal, or would it not be worth it considering my wishes? (I don't have too many holidays till my retirement date).

Advantages


Climate, though it can get cold and humid in winter, it's quite nice 9 months a year, and I don't mind the heat at all,
Shops, there's a good mix of very modern industrial shopping complexes with Lidl, Ikea, Carrefour, Corte Inglés, Mercadona, and 50-year-old type of shops where you can get one nail or three screws, get your saucepans straightened or buy professional shampoo by the liter at the hairdressers paying wholesale price, decent local butchers and bakers,
Cities, there's Malaga, which is quite big and cultural, one would not get bored around there. Inland of the Costa del Sol, one can get to Granada, further west to Seville, all within 1-2 hours driving.
Countryside, there's plenty of picturesque countryside within a 30-45 minutes drive,
Beaches, decent choice of clean beaches everywhere, either full of Spaniards or full of foreigners,
Restaurants, wide choice of all prices, wonderful seafood and tapas,
Property to buy / rent, wide choice of old, new, flats / houses, all architectural styles, all prices (though Malaga is more expensive). My price range for buying (no mortgage) is around 180'000 euros and would probably be enough.
Roads / Driving, the roads have been resurfaced with European Union money and are brand new, the fines for bad driving are so high that there's almost no mad driver. Very few tolls.
Bureaucracy, looks like it's bearable, much more so than UK or France,
Internet, wifi seems to work even in the most isolated mountains behind the coast,
Flights, needed as my family is in UK, are really cheap to/from UK from Malaga and Gibraltar,
People, at least in this area, seem very nice and helpful compared to other regions of Spain where I have been. I have not once heard a marital dispute, or parents screaming at wild kids.
Culture, looks like I could meet with people from different cultures, with some degree of foreign travel and extensive education

Drawbacks


Crime, theft, burglary and muggings are common,
Personal taxes, it looks like I'll be hit to about 30% of my pension, although property/residence taxes do not seem outrageous. The total amount would still be cheaper than if I stayed in France,
Professional taxes, if I develop my (presently very small) Internet business to make a decent profit, then taxes and social security contributions are going to be a tough road (even though I don't need social security since I will have my own private medical insurance). And this revenue would be added to my personal taxes, making me liable to an extra step on the tax ladder,
Medical care, seems adequate for standard illnesses but not for anything complicated, which would entail my travelling back to some medical excellence centers (my private insurance would cover the medical costs but not the travel),
Renovation work, looks like if I need a plumber or an electrician or a tiler, I'll be probably had for any big money that they can wriggle out of me, without the work being perfect or even finished,
Heating / Air Conditioning, it seems that it would be expensive for both.

From what I read on the Portugal forum, I am undecided as to whether Portugal could offer me better than what I described above and whether it would deserve a trip. Any ideas would be welcome.

Thanks to all and best wishes
Titania


----------



## Sirtravelot

titania said:


> Hi Everyone and Happy New Year
> 
> I am due to retire in Feb 2014 and I'm debating the pros and cons of retiring to Spain vs. Portugal. I've put my house for sale yesterday, and hopefully it will get sold before next year. I'm an EU national.
> 
> I've known the north, east and west of Spain for a long time, I even have a Catalan tio. Last summer I went to the Costa del Sol, extreme south and east, and I really liked it.
> 
> However a friend told me that I should also look at Portugal because my pension money would go further. My pension (foreign, not UK, not France) would be 38'000 euros p/y, but it would be taxed.
> 
> The thing is, I have never been to Portugal.
> 
> I'm a city girl with country yearnings, i.e. a big house (say 150 sq.meters) with a garden (say 500 sq.meters) and an aviary in a large town suburb, preferably with a well and solar hot water, but near enough to get the advantages of a big city. I like eating out 2-3 times a week, drive a decent size car and I like to live with all mods/cons in my house. I'm not a spend-thrift on luxuries or clothing though. I don't drink nor do I do any drugs. I cook and I don't buy ready-made meals.
> 
> This below is what I liked about Spain, the stretch from Malaga to Gibraltar. How does it compare to Portugal? Would it be worth it spending some holiday time in Portugal, or would it not be worth it considering my wishes? (I don't have too many holidays till my retirement date).
> 
> Advantages
> 
> 
> Climate, though it can get cold and humid in winter, it's quite nice 9 months a year, and I don't mind the heat at all, *It'll be similar in Portugal. Lisbon may have the best climate though.*
> Shops, there's a good mix of very modern industrial shopping complexes with Lidl, Ikea, Carrefour, Corte Inglés, Mercadona, and 50-year-old type of shops where you can get one nail or three screws, get your saucepans straightened or buy professional shampoo by the liter at the hairdressers paying wholesale price, decent local butchers and bakers, *Yup, no mercadona, but you get pingo doce and everything else*
> Cities, there's Malaga, which is quite big and cultural, one would not get bored around there. Inland of the Costa del Sol, one can get to Granada, further west to Seville, all within 1-2 hours driving. *This is where Portugal suffers. Lisbon is nice. Porto can't quite deliver what Lisbon can. Having said that, I wouldn't call Lisbon itself beautiful, but anywhere from Lisbon to Cascais is fantastic.*
> Countryside, there's plenty of picturesque countryside within a 30-45 minutes drive, *From Lisbon it's an hour or so to the Alentejo, which is nice. Drive further south, and you got the Algarve. The Silver Coast is also grand and Spain isn't that far away either. *
> Beaches, decent choice of clean beaches everywhere, either full of Spaniards or full of foreigners, *Most Portuguese beaches will have Portuguese mixed with the odd foreigner. I can imagine the Algarve to have many more. In my opinion, Portuguese beaches are better than Spanish.*
> Restaurants, wide choice of all prices, wonderful seafood and tapas, *Yeah, you'll find plenty in Portugal, however, Spain in my opinion is more creative with food. Portuguese food can be hit or miss. Ever tried Bacalhao? I did it. Once. Never again.*
> Property to buy / rent, wide choice of old, new, flats / houses, all architectural styles, all prices (though Malaga is more expensive). My price range for buying (no mortgage) is around 180'000 euros and would probably be enough. *Portugal has not suffered the property crash that Spain has, and it probably never will. Meaning, if you want to live somewhere around Lisbon, 180,000 may not get you what you'd look for, compared to somewhere else in Spain. Algarve would be just as expensive, I think. Google casa.sapo.pt for more accurate info. You may also find renting to be a MUCH cheaper alternative.*
> Roads / Driving, the roads have been resurfaced with European Union money and are brand new, the fines for bad driving are so high that there's almost no mad driver. Very few tolls. *Portugal has also got state of the art high ways, which nobody uses (hooray)*
> Bureaucracy, looks like it's bearable, much more so than UK or France, *Portuguese bureaucracy is awful.*
> Internet, wifi seems to work even in the most isolated mountains behind the coast, *Should be ok, unless you live in central portugal up in a hill with no neighbours.*
> Flights, needed as my family is in UK, are really cheap to/from UK from Malaga and Gibraltar, *Should be available. I'd check out the easyjet website.*
> People, at least in this area, seem very nice and helpful compared to other regions of Spain where I have been. I have not once heard a marital dispute, or parents screaming at wild kids. *When I was growing up it seemed fashionable for the father to punch the mother's into their place. Having said that, I don't think any of them got divorced. If people notice you are foreign, be prepared to be ripped off. Always be suspicious. Having said that, there are also other very nice Portuguese out there. There's no middle ground, if you were to believe me.*
> Culture, looks like I could meet with people from different cultures, with some degree of foreign travel and extensive education *Spain will have more foreign cultures to offer, and it is one of the reasons why I'd pick Spain over Portugal. I struggled to find someone there who spoke proper English, German, etc. However, Portugal has more of a connection with France since many moved there generations ago. Don't be surprised if the middle class men only discuss about Sporting and Benfica. Education elitism is also a thing in Portugal.*
> 
> Drawbacks
> 
> 
> Crime, theft, burglary and muggings are common, *I have been robbed once in Portugal. My house was also broken into. Car tires were stolen while on vacation. All this in the span of 11 years though. Most will tell you to be careful of gypsies.*
> Personal taxes, it looks like I'll be hit to about 30% of my pension, although property/residence taxes do not seem outrageous. The total amount would still be cheaper than if I stayed in France, *Sorry can't help you there.*
> Professional taxes, if I develop my (presently very small) Internet business to make a decent profit, then taxes and social security contributions are going to be a tough road (even though I don't need social security since I will have my own private medical insurance). And this revenue would be added to my personal taxes, making me liable to an extra step on the tax ladder, *Can't help there either.*
> Medical care, seems adequate for standard illnesses but not for anything complicated, which would entail my travelling back to some medical excellence centers (my private insurance would cover the medical costs but not the travel), *Now this is where, I think, Spain wins. I've not used the system, but I have heard good and bad things about it. In Portugal, they've been rather worse. I know of a British man who broke his arm in Portugal and refused to be treated until he went home because he believed health care in Portugal to be bad. My mother was in a car accident in Portugal. In hospital they gave her a shot and put her out the door. 3 weeks later her Scottish doctor came to our house because I was very sick and diagnosed my mom with a broken leg - without any need of diagnostic tools - Think about that one for a second.*
> Renovation work, looks like if I need a plumber or an electrician or a tiler, I'll be probably had for any big money that they can wriggle out of me, without the work being perfect or even finished, *Same in Portugal. Experienced it first hand with my mother. It's not just the plumber or the electrician - it's anyone who is going to make any sort of business with you.*
> Heating / Air Conditioning, it seems that it would be expensive for both. *Yup.*
> 
> From what I read on the Portugal forum, I am undecided as to whether Portugal could offer me better than what I described above and whether it would deserve a trip. Any ideas would be welcome.
> 
> Thanks to all and best wishes
> Titania


Well that's my contribution. I have lived in Portugal for 11- to 12 years and I've been in Spain on holiday and have done plenty of research on the state of the country. It's not quite the same as living there, of course, but I hope it gives you a rough idea if you want to compare the two.

Sorry if some of it sounds pessimistic, but I'm being as honest as I can with my opinion. You might, however, go to Portugal and love it as it does have its charms and in some ways, can very much stand out from Spain. If you do take a trip to Portugal, I recommend checking out Lisbon, from Oerias to Cascais, as some may describe it as a more affluent area. From there, take a trip north to Leiria for a cheaper alternative while not being too far away from the capital.

Then I'd recommend the Algarve, but sadly I do not know much about it. 

If you got more questions, don't hesitate to ask.


----------



## titania

Thank you ever so much for your reply. Perhaps others will also chime in?


----------



## Micksantacruz

Make 5 posts then I can private message you


----------



## canoeman

Cities: Coimbra and its surrounding areas would be a good alternative, from transport road, rail, bus and airports, cultural activity, beaches, property prices for 180,000 you'd find what your looking for within a small circle of Coimbra
Countryside: large diversity from the coastal plains and superb beaches to the Estrela and skiing
Restaurants: Big diversity from 6€ plate of the day to whatever
Flights: Ryanair fly UK to Porto no flights are cheap anymore but out of season currently with a case about 70€
People: here I very much disagree with sirtravelalot and although can be aloof have always been pleasant and helpful
Crime: There's crime everywhere but far less than Spain, the hotspots are the Algarve, Lisbon
Taxes: Doubt it would be as high as 30% but without accurate information it's difficult to say
Medical care: It's extremely good, I'd rather travel from UK to Portugal than that idiot
Proffesional taxes: without info again not possible to comment, but if your paying Social Security you wouldn't need private medical insurance and it'd generally a reguirement to be registered with the countries health srvice.
Renovation: You'll always find cowboys & sharks everywhere, it's listening to advice that avoids them
Heating/air con: not necessarily depends what is in property and what you want

Spain will have far greater problems with their crisis as the problem is much bigger than reported, make an extended visit then you'll see the difference for yourself.


----------



## titania

Thank you Canoeman. It is difficult to decide, isn't it. My private medical insurance covers me all over the world, including for private hospitals, and end-of-life care, so I wouldn't want to let go of it. That's why I wouldn't be too keen in contributing to some national health scheme, but if I continue my web business and start making a profit, I would be obliged to do so. Perhaps I should simply not work .

Another thing, what is the weather really like in winter in Coimbra? Right now, on my desktop, the weather forecast says sunny, but only 9°C, like in Marbella. However, it's 11°C in Faro, and in 16°C in Gibraltar. You see, property may be more expensive in Lisboa or the Algarve, but then possibly I would spend less in heating costs? After all, if I have to spend 2'000 euros per year in electric heating, that represents 60'000 euros in 30 years... and I don't know if I'll be able to drag wood to the chimney, or pellets from the cellar, or drag 11kg gas bottles, when I'm really old and decrepit 

What's the situation towards single women - does one get pestered all the time? Can I go to a restaurant on my own and not fear being thought a loose wench? Are women considered second rate citizens? Is the catholic mentality overwhelming?

Thanks again
Titania


----------



## Sonho

titania said:


> Hi Everyone and Happy New Year
> 
> 
> Advantages
> 
> 
> Climate, though it can get cold and humid in winter, it's quite nice 9 months a year, and I don't mind the heat at all, *Excellent weather in the Algarve...we can have some cool, wet days in the winter, but that is about it.*
> Shops, there's a good mix of very modern industrial shopping complexes with Lidl, Ikea, Carrefour, Corte Inglés, Mercadona, and 50-year-old type of shops where you can get one nail or three screws, get your saucepans straightened or buy professional shampoo by the liter at the hairdressers paying wholesale price, decent local butchers and bakers,*Fine mix of shops, but not much hi fashion in the Algarve *
> Cities, there's Malaga, which is quite big and cultural, one would not get bored around there. Inland of the Costa del Sol, one can get to Granada, further west to Seville, all within 1-2 hours driving. *Not much in the Algarve which is where it falls down on your list*
> Countryside, there's plenty of picturesque countryside within a 30-45 minutes drive, *Tons of scenery*
> Beaches, decent choice of clean beaches everywhere, either full of Spaniards or full of foreigners, Fab beaches...the best in Europe and you can always find a quiet one if you want it
> Restaurants, wide choice of all prices, wonderful seafood and tapas, *Plenty of restaurants but not very creative. I do lvoe bachalau though. *
> Property to buy / rent, wide choice of old, new, flats / houses, all architectural styles, all prices (though Malaga is more expensive). My price range for buying (no mortgage) is around 180'000 euros and would probably be enough. *Prices have dropped substantially and there are deals to be found now.*
> Roads / Driving, the roads have been resurfaced with European Union money and are brand new, the fines for bad driving are so high that there's almost no mad driver. Very few tolls. fine roads
> Bureaucracy, looks like it's bearable, much more so than UK or France,
> Internet, wifi seems to work even in the most isolated mountains behind the coast, fine
> Flights, needed as my family is in UK, are really cheap to/from UK from Malaga and Gibraltar, fine
> People, at least in this area, seem very nice and helpful compared to other regions of Spain where I have been. I have not once heard a marital dispute, or parents screaming at wild kids. * I love the people here...very gracious and forgiving. They also come through for you when it counts. *
> Culture, looks like I could meet with people from different cultures, with some degree of foreign travel and extensive education *Lots of retired people in the Algarve and imo, they are the most interesting expats. The younger expats in the Algarve are often less educated and worldly, not always, but often enough. *
> 
> Drawbacks
> 
> 
> Crime, theft, burglary and muggings are common, *petty stuff for the most part.*
> Personal taxes, it looks like I'll be hit to about 30% of my pension, although property/residence taxes do not seem outrageous. The total amount would still be cheaper than if I stayed in France, *There are some changes on drastic lowering of rates on pensions being discussed. Do some research. *
> Professional taxes, if I develop my (presently very small) Internet business to make a decent profit, then taxes and social security contributions are going to be a tough road (even though I don't need social security since I will have my own private medical insurance). And this revenue would be added to my personal taxes, making me liable to an extra step on the tax ladder,
> Medical care, seems adequate for standard illnesses but not for anything complicated, which would entail my travelling back to some medical excellence centers (my private insurance would cover the medical costs but not the travel), *I have heard that Spain is better, but our friends have all been happy with the care they have received.*
> Renovation work, looks like if I need a plumber or an electrician or a tiler, I'll be probably had for any big money that they can wriggle out of me, without the work being perfect or even finished, Labor is cheap and once you find a network, renovation is very reasonable. We have renovated a house and I am very pleased with the work that we have contracted out.
> Heating / Air Conditioning, it seems that it would be expensive for both. *Yes, with full iva on both as well.*
> 
> Titania


We have lived in the Algarve for three years and now, keep a house there. If you like a city, Lisbon would probably be a better bet and I do htink it is a lovely city. Still, it is 2.5 hours away on train and Seville is about the same. the best thing about PT is the people. I love the slower pace, the relaxed approach, the 'não faz mal' attitude. And the weather is perfect for us.


----------



## anapedrosa

titania said:


> What's the situation towards single women - does one get pestered all the time? Can I go to a restaurant on my own and not fear being thought a loose wench? Are women considered second rate citizens? Is the catholic mentality overwhelming?
> 
> Thanks again
> Titania


Hi - here I think that I can help. I live in Canada and have my Portuguese citizenship (via descent), I have visited Portugal over the years with the longest stretch 10 months. I have never had any trouble with Portuguese men being aggressive. I follow the same caution that I use in any country. Oh - and in terms of the religion, it's a catholic country, but I don't find it's a topic of discussion or expectation. 

Depending what you mean be city, there's the option of being near a small city like Caldas da Rainha (about 30k people), costs are lower than Lisbon, but Lisbon is only an hour away. Weather in the south is a couple of degrees warmer - in general - like any place it varies. I would say the main difference is rain, just look at the difference in vegetation from the Algarve to the north - but still a lot less than Canada or the UK.

Good luck with your choices.


----------



## notlongnow

I'm surprised nobody's suggesting the Algarve for you. Where we are in Tavira we can be in Seville in 90 mins by car (best of both worlds!) and in Lisbon in under 3 hours. We can also be in Marbella in about 4 hours, something we sometimes do at the weekend.

I'm biased because I live in Portugal, but, for me, all I have to do to know we made the right decision is compare the aggression and attitude in a busy Spanish supermarket with the calm laid back atmosphere in a Portuguese supermarket!

We still have a Mercadona within 20mins drive and a Carrefour within 40 - and we have all the Portuguese equivalents handy to us too. 

PLEASE spend some time in Portugal before making your decision. For us it was nothing more than a feeling, but one shared by many people we speak to. Spain and Portugal are surprisingly different for neighbouring countries - and if you fall in love with Portugal, there are places you can live where Spain is just a short drive away anyway.

B


----------



## titania

Thank you very much each one of you for your replies. Now it makes it even more difficult for me to decide since your opinions are so contrasted . Would Algarve be as expensive as Lisbon in terms of buying property?

Also, I searched the site and Googled this 10-year tax exemption on foreign pensions, but I gather the Portuguese authorities, although they have attempted to clarify the situation, are still quite reluctant to apply it, is this correct?

As I was saying on another thread, I don't mind paying fair taxes, but as little as possible, and as long as I know that they are used properly for the country in which I am. Presently where I am, in France, this is not the case. I have heard that both Spain and Portugal are not innocent either in this respect. Have you, yourselves, noticed if the tax hikes have helped poor people, enterprise creation and the like?


----------



## notlongnow

> Have you, yourselves, noticed if the tax hikes have helped poor people, enterprise creation and the like?


LOL!

I recommend reading the "Algarve Daily News" website to get a good (if slightly cynical view) of the way things are around here.

The Algarve has property ranging from rustic villas in the hills to glitzy multi-million Euro villas in the golden triangle - on the whole, however, I would say property is cheaper than in Lisbon / Cascais. You'd certainly have plenty of choice for your budget.


----------



## canoeman

A cash buyer has a lot of power these days, the Algarve and Lisbon especially Cascais area or coastal will always command some premium, my reason for not recommending the Algarve is purely most of infrastructure is holiday related and I feel that Coimbra as an example has a better City life without the drawbacks of a major city, or as Ana suggests C de Rainha is on the doorstep of Lisbon.
Your pension would be taxed here like any income, exactly how could well depend on how your pension is paid or any taxation requirements of country paying it. 

*If you qualify* for the 10 year exemption you'll get it, but you'll need a savvy accountant to handle for you

I take your point about your Private insurance, but you might qualify to register with Health Service without S/S payments or if your employed or self employed and paid S/S you'd be Registered anyway.

Is any countries tax system fair and helps all fairly, yes a consideration but there are a lot of other factors to consider,


----------



## titania

Ah well, looks like I'm going to have to spend a little time in Portugal, Lisboa, Coimbra, and the Algarve, to at least get a feeling for theses places. Would early February or early March give me the feel of the real Portugal without the tourists around? Otherwise, I'd need to wait until after September for a visit (cannot take holidays during the summer) and that's really close to my official retirement date (Feb 2014). After all, I wouldn't live in a country just during July and August but all year-round. If the Algarve is totally deserted in winter, it might not be for me.

Also, I'd like to establish fiscal residence somewhere before the 2013 year-end. (January and February 2014 I can take my cumulated days off in sunny country )


----------



## robc

titania said:


> Also, I searched the site and Googled this 10-year tax exemption on foreign pensions, but I gather the Portuguese authorities, although they have attempted to clarify the situation, are still quite reluctant to apply it, is this correct?


Not so, if you use the Financas International in Lisboa then it is very much straightforward. The "rural" financas offices do know about it, but it means that they have to do something that involves a decision, so it is easier to metaphorically throw stones at it until it goes away !!!!!

Registration process took 16 weeks so pretty easy really.

HTH

Rob


----------



## Guest

Hi, I am sure you are not naive enough to move somewhere before spending time there in all the seasons because to go somewhere in Portugal in February and expect it to be the same in July is a deceit. Surely the charm is to discover for yourself and only you will know if its right for you, setting a time limit only forces a decision which may be the right or wrong one. On this forum there are people pontificating that Portugal is fantastic (in the popular sense) and others saying it's complete crap.. I wish you well. but. don't get taken in by those who express opinions as fact.


----------



## titania

Thanks Robc. That was indeed an extremely useful piece of information. Grateful  as I'll be able to work my calendar backwards to tidy up in which order to sort my things out.

Coleio, thanks to you also. Of course, I would need to spend quite some time renting before buying. I do have an imperative though, I would want to set up fiscal residency outside France before 31st December, for tax reasons. That does not mean I would rush buying abroad, but it does mean I find somewhere to live in either Spain or Portugal, officially, before year-end.

There's one thing I would be sure of: I need some kind of normal bustling city life not far, with normal people living normal lives, with normal shops open and normal cultural activities of some kind, regular electricity and water, year round.

To me, any touristy place that would be empty from 15 September to 15 June, with shops closed, youngsters on the lookout for a crooked deal, tired faces, etc. during a seasonal low would depress me, and I would not want to live in such places. So the elimination process would be easier from this standpoint. No people in winter, no me living there.

Of course, I would fully expect that in a capital like Lisboa or some of the bigger towns, even there the population would be supplemented by tourists in July and August and I don't mind that at all.

At least in or next to the bigger towns, in the dead of winter, I could hope that not everything is closed on half-mile stretches with having to drive 2 hours on dangerous winding roads to get a nail and a screw, a replacement fridge-freezer or hitch-hiking for several miles to get a petrol-pump for the car.

I am aware that the PIIGS are undergoing a really nasty recession - of which some I could even see in Spain this summer. I know there are demonstrations, which may at times be violent, but I did not see anything of the scale of what I've already experienced or lived through, and hopefully it won't ever get to this point.


----------



## titania

ohohoh... let me have a fit of hysterics here! Was reading an article on one of the poster's blog in my thread and found that there are mozzies there!!!! Mozzies, horror of horrors. I hate them, they make me swell, they itch and it takes me a week to recover with antihistamines. Hence why I desisted relocating to Central America, too many critters there.

Are mosquitoes all over Portugal? Only some regions?

And while on the subject of critters, any more of these than the very occasional multi-legged insects? Roaches??? Ants??? Spiders??? Is powdered green Baygon available there? Permethrin and the like? 50% DEET or more?

I did not once get bitten in Spain, either last summer, or in the previous all-seasons explorations there.


----------



## canoeman

Mozzies are where there's a lot of standing water, we've lived this time in Portugal (not the Algarve) for 10 years and have never had problems with mozzies, there is a biting fly, but you get insects everywhere. Plenty of product available here for humans, animals and anti insect.

Fiscal registration for 2013 then you need to work it from France as if they operate the general live in country more than 183 days a year then you need to leave prior to end June and register elsewhere. 

Another bonus of not being a French Resident and a Portuguese one is that Portugal recognizes your country of birth for Succession, neither France or Spain do


----------



## titania

Canoeman, thanks indeed for this useful information.

It means I must sell my house before mid June 2013, early June would be better. Firstly to be a French fiscal resident on the day of the sale means that I would not have to pay value added on the sale as the house would be considered "principal residence". After that I must be off to Spain or Portugal to rent a broom cupboard and obtain residence after the sale but before 30 June.

What is important therefore is that I am officially away at the latest on 30 June, anywhere but not in France. It looks like it is easier to register in Spain than in Portugal if one has to do that in a hurry, even if I finally decide to go to Portugal in 2014. Whatever the taxation level is in Spain or Portugal, it will still be cheaper than France.

And I thought that a little more than a year would be sufficient time to prepare for retirement! It's going to be tight


----------



## canoeman

Portugal depends a bit on where you are but generally a very quick process, half hour tops unless you've been reading notlongnows blog which is an unfortunate exception to the norm.

If you visiting then get a Fiscal number you don't have to be a Resident you only need a Passport and your home address and needed to do other things like registerinfg residence, bank ac/c etc 

Hope French property market is buoyant if you want to sell in 6 months because nowhere else is


----------



## miradouro

I am due to retire in Feb 2014 and I'm debating the pros and cons of retiring to Spain vs. Portugal. I've put my house for sale yesterday, and hopefully it will get sold before next year. I'm an EU national.

I've known the north, east and west of Spain for a long time, I even have a Catalan tio. Last summer I went to the Costa del Sol, extreme south and east, and I really liked it.

However a friend told me that I should also look at Portugal because my pension money would go further. My pension (foreign, not UK, not France) would be 38'000 euros p/y, but it would be taxed.

The thing is, I have never been to Portugal.Rather than rushing in to buy a retirement home based on holidays alone (in Spain or Portugal), I'd consider renting a house for a year or three, then seeing how you like the life. Long-term rentals are currently an absolute bargain in both countries... and would leave you with your nest-egg without eating up much of those 38,000 euros. As you mention a business below, you might even be able to claim rental costs against income!

I'm a city girl with country yearnings, i.e. a big house (say 150 sq.meters) with a garden (say 500 sq.meters) and an aviary in a large town suburb, preferably with a well and solar hot water, but near enough to get the advantages of a big city. I like eating out 2-3 times a week, drive a decent size car and I like to live with all mods/cons in my house. I'm not a spend-thrift on luxuries or clothing though. I don't drink nor do I do any drugs. I cook and I don't buy ready-made meals.

This below is what I liked about Spain, the stretch from Malaga to Gibraltar. How does it compare to Portugal? Would it be worth it spending some holiday time in Portugal, or would it not be worth it considering my wishes? (I don't have too many holidays till my retirement date).

Advantages


Climate, though it can get cold and humid in winter, it's quite nice 9 months a year, and I don't mind the heat at all, The Algarve is comparable to Southern Spain for climate: about 2-5 degrees chillier in winter due to the Atlantic (cooling influence); north of the Algarve, winter temperatures drop for the same reason, and humidity is an issue. The really big difference is sea temperature: the ocean is chilly on Atlantic coast (Costa Vicentina, Cascais, Silver Coast) even in mid summer; plus the beaches are generally surf beaches (big waves and strong currents) not gentle Mediterranean ones.
Shops, there's a good mix of very modern industrial shopping complexes with Lidl, Ikea, Carrefour, Corte Inglés, Mercadona, and 50-year-old type of shops where you can get one nail or three screws, get your saucepans straightened or buy professional shampoo by the liter at the hairdressers paying wholesale price, decent local butchers and bakers,Pretty much the same in Portugal... although Lisbon (Chiado, Liberdade) is about the only place that non-mall shoppers will reall love. E-commerce makes things a lot easier (books, DVDs etc.). 
Cities, there's Malaga, which is quite big and cultural, one would not get bored around there. Inland of the Costa del Sol, one can get to Granada, further west to Seville, all within 1-2 hours driving. Lisbon and Porto the only true cultural centres... but Seville is very near Tavira, as mentioned by another poster.
Countryside, there's plenty of picturesque countryside within a 30-45 minutes drive,Rather than Malaga, for scenery I'd consider the Cádiz coast around Véjer - more beautiful, less over-developed and still close to Grazalema, pueblos blancos etc. Portugal, especially the interior, of course has beautiful landscapes: however, the Serras de Alte and Monchique in the Algarve cannot really compete with the Sierras Nevada and Grazalema. 
Beaches, decent choice of clean beaches everywhere, either full of Spaniards or full of foreigners,
Restaurants, wide choice of all prices, wonderful seafood and tapas, Lisbon and some of the Algarve (the 'Golden Mile' of restaurants behind Faro) has plenty of restaurants, but Portuguese culture focuses on basic 'tascas' which serve the same stuff everywhere... generally you pay for more creativity/quality. Thankfully, a generation of new chefs are doing what happened in Spain 10-15 years ago: reinventing old-fashioned cuisine.
Property to buy / rent, wide choice of old, new, flats / houses, all architectural styles, all prices (though Malaga is more expensive). My price range for buying (no mortgage) is around 180'000 euros and would probably be enough.
Nothing decent on the Lisbon coast for that price... some bargains these days around Tavira.
Roads / Driving, the roads have been resurfaced with European Union money and are brand new, the fines for bad driving are so high that there's almost no mad driver. Very few tolls. Roads are fine, but tolls can prove expensive for travel e.g. Algarve-Lisbon, Lisbon-Oporto, Lisbon-Badajoz).
Bureaucracy, looks like it's bearable, much more so than UK or France,If you love bureaucracy, Portugal's ideal:clap2:
Internet, wifi seems to work even in the most isolated mountains behind the coast,Generally fine here, with 4G hitting most remote areas by end of 2013.
Flights, needed as my family is in UK, are really cheap to/from UK from Malaga and Gibraltar,Lisbon, Oporto and Faro offer cheap flights to UK: in Spain or the eastern Algarve you would also have Seville (good for EasyJet/Ryanair, and internal flights to e.g. Bilbao, Barcelona).
People, at least in this area, seem very nice and helpful compared to other regions of Spain where I have been. I have not once heard a marital dispute, or parents screaming at wild kids. Portuguese generally not as 'warm', but some prove friendly after a 1-2 year period of 'courtship'. 'Alegría' of the Spanish generally contrasts with 'Melancolía' and 'Saudade' of Portuguese... and with reason (dour faces abound).
Culture, looks like I could meet with people from different cultures, with some degree of foreign travel and extensive education Lots of sophisticated people all over Portugal too: both have been major retirement/downshift destinations for 3-4 decades.

Drawbacks


Crime, theft, burglary and muggings are common,
Personal taxes, it looks like I'll be hit to about 30% of my pension, although property/residence taxes do not seem outrageous. The total amount would still be cheaper than if I stayed in France,Portugal is a bit of an IHT haven (so good if you plan to leave a lot to next-of-kin). Council taxes in rural areas at times very, very low (10-50 euros a year). Otherwise, broadly similar to Spain.
Professional taxes, if I develop my (presently very small) Internet business to make a decent profit, then taxes and social security contributions are going to be a tough road (even though I don't need social security since I will have my own private medical insurance). And this revenue would be added to my personal taxes, making me liable to an extra step on the tax ladder,Look up 'green receipts' (recibos verdes) for info on small-scale taxes for freelancers.
Medical care, seems adequate for standard illnesses but not for anything complicated, which would entail my travelling back to some medical excellence centers (my private insurance would cover the medical costs but not the travel),
Renovation work, looks like if I need a plumber or an electrician or a tiler, I'll be probably had for any big money that they can wriggle out of me, without the work being perfect or even finished,Don't get me started on this issue and my Portuguese experiences... the good thing is that a parallel expat economy exists (Brits, Germans, Ukrainians) both sides of the border, and there are lots of men-with-vans who can do cheap delivery of materials source from ebay.co.uk, ebay.fr and ebay.de
Heating / Air Conditioning, it seems that it would be expensive for both.Compared with Northern Europe, not expensive: have never needed airco as house is well insulated, and garden planting/pergolas/pools offers plenty of outdoor shade in summer.

From what I read on the Portugal forum, I am undecided as to whether Portugal could offer me better than what I described above and whether it would deserve a trip. Any ideas would be welcome.
It's worth a trip to Tavira as it's nearly in Spain, and offers some property bargains right now. Both the Algarve and Southern Spain have gigantic colonies of retirees, so no problem wit social life as you get older. As you have Catalan family, and links to France, it might also be worth looking at Southern Catalunya (near Tarragona/Tortosa): very easy to get to Barça and Valencia, with dirt-cheap flights from Reus. Culturally, Barcelona has more to offer than Malaga (and it's not too long a drive to cross over into France). 
Thanks to all and best wishes
Titania


----------



## titania

Hi Canoeman,

Thanks for the information 

The French property market is stable in most regions, but truly buoyant in some small niche markets. I am hopeful my house could be sold in 6 months. In fact, there was a poster on another thread who was looking for a house exactly like mine, I answered his thread, but he never bothered to reply  Oh well!


----------



## titania

Hi Miradouro,

Many thanks for this very extensive reply  Yours has indeed useful tips, as had others too. I'll be sure to think carefully about the situation. Of course, I wouldn't rush into buying the moment I land although I'm an "owner" in my mind and never felt like a "renter", needing my independence, yada yada yada .

Yep, I well know the yellow lemon trees of Catalunya, having given "treatment" to my then very sick beloved aunt with the lemon juice from fruit that I picked up - I was 7 years old, long long time ago! And that's how she met my Catalunyan uncle - I'd nicked his fruit. Fond memories, though now I prefer the south further down. As you say, I can always hop on a plane for a cultury weekend in Barça anytime if my arty and culty temperament needs a fix!

Knowing myself, having been an expat twice already, and having almost settled in many places, I might find roots for some years, and then move on elsewhere. Which is certainly why I'd be extra careful with any choice, that anything I buy is re-saleable in a few years' time, just in case I get itchy feet in my old age.

I'll check Tavira, and see where that leads me... but I am not yet convinced about Portugal.

Thanks all of you kind souls  Will let you know where I stand in a few weeks' time...


----------



## steve01

Hi sirtravalot - your reply is very bitter and reads like you don't live here !


----------



## steve01

i posted this elsewhere - the abusive replies from spanish expats is still ringing in my ears - but not one single item was shown to be incorrect.
I admit i'm nosey, i look at some of the other countries forums here from time to time for a variety of reasons.

Spain - because we seriously considered moving there 3 years ago.

God its so scary.

Property prices still plumetting - 10-20% or more year on year - the house we thought of buying then at 299k is now offered at 150k and still hasn't sold

Death duties - They effectively lock up all of your assets, home, car, bank accounts as soon as possible after the death - even for married couples - and you can't get at them until after you pay the death duties - the rules vary region on region and no-one seems to fully understand it.

Non resident income tax - buy there and you owe them tax every year even if its just for your own use.

Buying costs - 10% + 

Estate agents fees just as awful as here 3-10% for doing ?

Draconian laws on debt - if they even suspect you can't repay the mortgage - you're out.

Land grab (they take your land, then make you pay to take utilities over it for someone else) - unbelievably still legal in some regions - HOW CAN THIS BE !

Strict inforcement of the 'proof of income' rules before you can even think about living there - completely agree with this - but they're now talking of making it retrospective - So you moved there 10 years ago, had a good job, now you're unemployed - BYE BYE.

Food prices - huge increases over the last 3 years.

Crime - CRIME, CRIME, CRIME and more crime - had the pleasure of watching a couple of episodes of COSTA del CRIME the other day on SKY - if you haven't seen it do - you'd never go to the COSTA'S again.

Corruption - spanish local politicians make the Portuguese look like the most honest on the planet

Unemployment - 25% and rising - and thats what they admit to (official figures)

And to top it all off it hasn't stopped raining in most of Spain for over a month, roads closed, landslides, devastation, - I read up on this and was amazed to find they have monsoons on Coastel Spain every October - they don't mention that on the holiday brochures 

Whats my point - just this - so happy we chose Portugal 

Portugal is nothing like Spain - its much better - of course it has its problems at the moment every European country does

Spain Property prices still plumetting - 
Mostly stable here - but certainly not rising

Death duties - Simple - not payable here - just a 10% property transfer tax on house.
english wills are valid here - no Napoleonic forced inheritence rules

Non resident income tax - Doesn't exist
Buying costs - 10% + less here around 5-6% 

Estate agents fees just as awful as here 3-10% for doing - sadly the same?

Draconian laws on debt - not the same here and they're just introducing legislation to prevent the banks from repossessing and overvalueing the debt

Land grab - doesn't exist
Strict inforcement of the 'proof of income' rules - have always existed , but checks are minimal

Food prices - huge increases over the last 3 years - but i spent 3 months in Spain and the cost of living is much lower here.

Crime - of course it happens, but its very minimal in comparison 
Corruption - spanish local politicians make the Portuguese look like the most honest on the planet

Unemployment - sadly rising - 

Pensions income - taxed heavily in spain - new tax treaties here giving hugely favourable tax situstion to pensioners buying here from 2013 onwards

And to top it all off it hasn't stopped raining in most of Spain for over a month, - it does rain here in the winter, but we rarely get the extremes of Spain


----------



## travelling-man

steve01 said:


> Property prices still plumetting - 10-20% or more year on year - the house we thought of buying then at 299k is now offered at 150k and still hasn't sold
> 
> 
> Spain Property prices still plumetting -
> Mostly stable here - but certainly not rising


I have to say I simply fail to understand the Portuguese attitude to property prices. 

We looked at a house almost two years ago and about a year ago, we made a close to asking price offer that was turned down. 

Another year later, the same house is still on the market and the asking price has now increased by 30%. 

The seller must be barmy!


----------



## canoeman

As Portuguese rank second to USA on property ownership they only sell the other extra properties when they need, we've had exactly the same experience with offers rejected and prices increased.

More reality creeping in now but unfortunately that's down to the crisis and people having to sell whether their Portuguese or expats, overall we see a drop in prices and cash is king


----------



## carlaperes

Hello

I am spanish, living in Portugal. 
Portugal is safer, cleaner, more relaxed, people are very friendly to foreigners, women are treated equal to men, religion is not an important subject.
Prices are more or less comparable.


----------



## miradouro

-- I'd stress again the tip about renting (in Spain or Portugal). At the moment, a number of local authorities in Portugal have been under pressure to monetise their empty real estate (using recently-released EU funds); so some _camaras municipais_ are offering rental property at way below market rates (near me, lovely houses for as little as 82-125 euros a month). As I travel a lot around Europe, I'm half-thinking of letting my own house and becoming a tenant again!

So if looking at Tavira, check if the local _camara_ has anything on its books. Also, phone around estate agents to see if any sellers are willing to consider a low-rent house-sitter.

Just to chip in on steve01's comments.

-- It's difficult to contrast Spain with Portugal per se. The good thing is that if you live near the border (either side), you can cherry pick the best of both countries. 

-- I'm not sure Portugal is 'better' than Spain, just different... and of course much smaller. Portugal has a big North-South (Lisbon-Porto) divide. Spain meanwhile is so varied that each of its _autonomías _are as different in character as Portugal is to, say, Castile, Extremadura, Huelva provice, or Galicia. The biggest difference is that, geographically, Southern Spain will be that little bit better connected to Madrid (by train) and the rest of Europe (more airports to choose from), and also offers easy weekends to Morocco. The other big difference is that while Spain has a lot of secondary cities with their own cultural life (Seville, Granada, Malaga, Valencia, Salamanca, Segovia etc. etc.), Portugal really has just Lisbon and Porto. Hopefully, one day the fast train network that Spain has built across Iberia will extend to Portugal, and cross-border travel and cultural ties will become more commonplace (Portuguese hispanophobia has blocked the Lisbon-Madrid TGV for years).

-- The rain in the winter in Portugal north of the Algarve can be Ireland-like: makes things greener, of course (I myself like seasons), but if winter sun is important - and it is for most retirees considering Spain - the Mediterranean (or the Algarve) is a sunnier and warmer place December-March. 

-- Of people I know who bought (i) in Spain and (ii) in Portugal five years ago, those who bought in Spain are more positive, even in the midst of the crisis. The answer is cultural: even in the face of adversity, the Spanish are more upbeat, and enjoy life with a passion. The crisis has coloured the Portuguese press, cultural life etc. with even more pessismism than usual.

-- Any claims to the re-saleability/capital accrual of Portuguese property is a myth. Prices remain high in comparison to earnings here (ridiculously so in Lisbon, the Troia Peninsula and Silver Coast), so do not . Portugal saw little of the boom 2000-2008, and the economy has been a non-starter since way before Lehmans collapsed.


----------



## notlongnow

> so some camaras municipais are offering rental property at way below market rates (near me, lovely houses for as little as 82-125 euros a month


Where might you find out about such properties? Are they online anywhere?


----------



## titania

Wow  Didn't think I would provoke such a lively debate! Thank you all. It's been very instructive I must say. So now, OK, I'll take a peek at Portugal, but honest, my mind is now swinging from one to the other country with every post, hahaha!


----------



## Micksantacruz

we are living in the UK at the moment and have a property in Santa Cruz consisting of a main house and a lower basement. We have been trying to rent the main house out so its not standing empty and we are not paying out of our pockets. We originally wanted €500 per month and have now reduced it to €350 and still cant rent it out. Someone offered us €280 for it but it can stay empty at that price. It just shows how bad the Portuguese economy is at the moment. Was talking to some Portuguese relatives on the phone yesterday and they said there are loads of empty houses in Portugal not been able to get a fair rent for them. Steve1 I hope your irrigation pump is still working ok. Regards Mick (uk resident wanting to move to Pt)


----------



## steve01

hi Mick,
Happy new year, pump works fine, but i'm happy to say the mixture of sunshine and rain means i haven't had to use it for months.
Sorry you can't rent, Portugal has never really had a rental market away from the coast / cities / large towns - bit like the French and in my view sensible they like to live as close to work as possible, so a friend here told me leaves more time for eating , drinking and making love - compensates for the low wages.


----------



## miradouro

notlongnow said:


> Where might you find out about such properties? Are they online anywhere?


You'd have to contact individual _camaras municipais_ direct.

For the Algarve, this site is useful:
ALGARVE, COME AND LIVE HERE


----------



## DonAlberto

titania said:


> Another thing, what is the weather really like in winter in Coimbra? Right now, on my desktop, the weather forecast says sunny, but only 9°C, like in Marbella....
> Thanks again
> Titania


I spent a week early December in Coimbra and after a bout in Denmark I am now in Porto - very close.

Winter seems to be rain, rain and then some rain. Out of 12 days it has been raining 11, although tomorrow and Monday is expected to be cloudy, no rain.

Check this: Coimbra- Pronósticos extendidos a 10 días ? weather.com/espanol

A reasonably good umbrella can be had for app 5 Euro


----------



## steve01

Weather in the alentejo is beautiful, on the coast by sines we've hit 25-28c on a sheltered patio over lunchtime for several days in the last week


----------



## Micksantacruz

Now your teasing me Steve you know how much I want to move there. The weather is -4c here in the Uk on a night and 4c during the day. Oh how I miss Portugal. Need to get someone into do some repairs on our house first before we move to portugal but its difficult when we are stuck here in the UK.


----------



## Yabby

*Porto, Coimbra etc*

Sorry if I'm coming into this conversation after the fact but I just joined the forum this week and wanted to add a little info about this area. We have survived 4.5 winters now in the Coimbra and Porto regions, and holidayed in Porto two winters before that. Every winter has been different. This one, so far, has been very wet. Last winter we had beautiful mid 20's weather in February and March followed by about 7-8 weeks of horrible rain stretching right up to the middle of May. A couple of years before that we were on the beach in January. One thing that has been consistent across the years is I've never seen frost! One year we saw some snow on the Caramulo mountains that looked close but we drove towards it for an hour and never quite got there! 

The beaches are great although being on the Atlantic the water is usually colder than the Med and you have to shop around to find a good swimming beach (e.g. Barra, Sao Martinho do Porto). Temperatures are usually in the low 30s in the Summer, with pleasant low humidity, and low teens in the winter. If your top priority is hot weather, good swimming beaches and/or a big expat community, North/Central Portugal can't compete with the Algarve and the Costa del Sol. But it has other charms - stunning scenery, magnificent history, it is relatively unspoilt and un-touristy, has an almost non-existent crime rate, very friendly people, really low house prices, and some great towns and cities - Porto (my favourite city in the world - so good I moved there!), Aveiro, Coimbra, Braga, Guimaraes, Figueira da Foz.


----------



## canoeman

I'd agree about weather and water but beaches your missing out on Pedrogoa, Leirosa, F de Foz(aquired taste) Quiaios, Tocha, Mira, both sides of Aveiro and up to Espinho, I wouldn't agree there's not a big expat community it's just more spread out rather than concentrated as in Algarve


----------



## Sharoncf

There has been frost quite a few times and down to the minuses in the morning. But this does not deter.


----------



## Yabby

Frost? Uh? Where???


----------



## Sharoncf

In our village, in Nelas and surrounding areas it was -3 at 7:30am a couple of weeks ago and we are not there at present but have been tol it was snowing in Viseu last week


----------



## Yabby

Yes I believe it can get quite cold over there (stunningly beautiful area though!) but I've never seen it in Porto, Coimbra or in between. That's one of the things I love about this country, there are so many microclimates and the weather and landscapes change so dramatically over a relatively short distance.


----------



## South View

robc said:


> Not so, if you use the Financas International in Lisboa then it is very much straightforward. The "rural" financas offices do know about it, but it means that they have to do something that involves a decision, so it is easier to metaphorically throw stones at it until it goes away !!!!!
> 
> Registration process took 16 weeks so pretty easy really.
> 
> HTH
> 
> Rob


Hello

New to the forum and planning our move to Portugal in the next few months - financial matters to the fore at the moment - could you explain how on 'qualifies' for the 10 year pension tax holiday.

We are married couple who will be living on an annuity and one UK state pension.

Our understanding is that we will not pay any tax in UK but in Portugal - but hopes have been raised by all the talk of the pensioners tax holiday.

Any help/advice greatly appreciated.

South View


----------



## canoeman

This is "latest" on non habitual scheme
_"The Portuguese Government has recently clarified the law concerning Non Habitual Residents (NHR). 
The law was introduced in 2009, but the refusal by the fiscal administration to apply it to pensions has been finally resolved and will have a major impact on foreign pensioners’ income. 
NHR pensioners will become tax exempt in Portugal on their pension income, even if not taxed in the source country, therefore, a double tax exemption will be allowed as well."_

Portugal does though treat annuity pensions differently to UK, so you should check on how this works with general taxation and within NHR if your entitled to the NHR scheme

This is a pretty concise explanation, but first check if your income and possible tax warrants it against the cost of employing an accountancy firm to handle for you would the cost outweigh the saving?

The new Portuguese tax regime for non-habitual residents


----------



## South View

Thanks so much for the info and the link - a lot more research I fear!

South View


----------



## robc

canoeman said:


> This is "latest" on non habitual scheme
> _"The Portuguese Government has recently clarified the law concerning Non Habitual Residents (NHR).
> The law was introduced in 2009, but the refusal by the fiscal administration to apply it to pensions has been finally resolved and will have a major impact on foreign pensioners’ income.
> NHR pensioners will become tax exempt in Portugal on their pension income, even if not taxed in the source country, therefore, a double tax exemption will be allowed as well."_
> 
> Portugal does though treat annuity pensions differently to UK, so you should check on how this works with general taxation and within NHR if your entitled to the NHR scheme
> 
> This is a pretty concise explanation, but first check if your income and possible tax warrants it against the cost of employing an accountancy firm to handle for you would the cost outweigh the saving?
> 
> The new Portuguese tax regime for non-habitual residents


Thanks Canoe.........I could not have put it better myself

Rob


----------



## titania

Okayeeee, it's done, I've done it, I've done it 

Booked my flights, car and first few nights for Faro in May (couldn't go there earlier)... I'll be exploring the Algarve and Lisbon. 17 days... of what I hope will be a pure blissful holiday searching whether my soul feels at ease in this country. So many thanks everybody for all the information. Now... frantic search for papers of all sorts to bring with me


----------



## Mirsan

*Living in Coimbra*

I can certainly endorse Coimbra as a region worthy of consideration. I have had a holiday home just outside Coimbra since 2008. I travel back at least three times per year. It is a beautiful region and i have always found the residents to be friendly and helpful. I am a single woman and have never had anything but respect from Portuguese men. They have been extremely polite and always willing to help.

I cannot comment on the cost of services as I don't live year round, but where I am (Mortagua) the price of food and eating out is quite low. A good three-course meal for 6.00-10.00 Euros. A coffee and a pastry for 1.50 Euros. Even in the city of Coimbra a coffee and pastry will not usualy cost more than 2.00 Euros. 

As regards weather, I have stayed during November - February. Unless it's a very bad winter, I find the weather good enough to enjoy being outside. The early morning and late evening/nights are chilly but the days are usually bright and much warmer by midday. 

I live in a small village where everyone knows everyone else so no crime to worry about. I am 10 mins from the nearest town and 45 mins from Coimbra. Coimbra is also quite centrally located so you are almost never more than 2 hrs away from most parts of Portugal. 

Wherever you choose, I hope you enjoy living there. Good luck 




canoeman said:


> Cities: Coimbra and its surrounding areas would be a good alternative, from transport road, rail, bus and airports, cultural activity, beaches, property prices for 180,000 you'd find what your looking for within a small circle of Coimbra
> Countryside: large diversity from the coastal plains and superb beaches to the Estrela and skiing
> Restaurants: Big diversity from 6€ plate of the day to whatever
> Flights: Ryanair fly UK to Porto no flights are cheap anymore but out of season currently with a case about 70€
> People: here I very much disagree with sirtravelalot and although can be aloof have always been pleasant and helpful
> Crime: There's crime everywhere but far less than Spain, the hotspots are the Algarve, Lisbon
> Taxes: Doubt it would be as high as 30% but without accurate information it's difficult to say
> Medical care: It's extremely good, I'd rather travel from UK to Portugal than that idiot
> Proffesional taxes: without info again not possible to comment, but if your paying Social Security you wouldn't need private medical insurance and it'd generally a reguirement to be registered with the countries health srvice.
> Renovation: You'll always find cowboys & sharks everywhere, it's listening to advice that avoids them
> Heating/air con: not necessarily depends what is in property and what you want
> 
> Spain will have far greater problems with their crisis as the problem is much bigger than reported, make an extended visit then you'll see the difference for yourself.


----------



## titania

Hi Mirsan, thanks very much for your information


----------



## bikersteve

titania said:


> Okayeeee, it's done, I've done it, I've done it
> 
> Booked my flights, car and first few nights for Faro in May (couldn't go there earlier)... I'll be exploring the Algarve and Lisbon. 17 days... of what I hope will be a pure blissful holiday searching whether my soul feels at ease in this country. So many thanks everybody for all the information. Now... frantic search for papers of all sorts to bring with me


Hi,Titania. Iv read your thread with interest and mixed feelings and emotions , it's been my dream to move to Spain or portugal for many years now, I have spent a little bit of time in each,..sort of scouting holidays ?..I think and hope it's going to be portugal ..I have friends in both and Spain does seem worse off at the moment ?
Part of me was screaming at you and saying "just do it,stop with the questions ". Part was saying how brave of a single woman..she has to be precautous ..( spelt incorrect ?) ..so I will be watching your thread with relish..all the best and good luck..Steve


----------



## Guest

*So, bikersteve*

So, bikersteve 

just do it, stop with the questions !! Pack your hippie truck and rent a shed for 6 months and don't forget your fishing rod/moped/wig/LPs/ and the Gois bike fest





bikersteve said:


> Hi,Titania. Iv read your thread with interest and mixed feelings and emotions , it's been my dream to move to Spain or portugal for many years now, I have spent a little bit of time in each,..sort of scouting holidays ?..I think and hope it's going to be portugal ..I have friends in both and Spain does seem worse off at the moment ?
> Part of me was screaming at you and saying "just do it,stop with the questions ". Part was saying how brave of a single woman..she has to be precautous ..( spelt incorrect ?) ..so I will be watching your thread with relish..all the best and good luck..Steve


----------



## bikersteve

Well I hope it won't be in a hippy truck ?.at the moment it's more likely to be a wheelchair ?..I can't wait to see what place Titania chooses ?


----------



## Ash Jez

I originally considered a move to Spain as both my sister and parents are living there. Neither parties a stupid and bought off plan about eight years ago and between them, spent about 400K. The sales went through with no problems and the builder was fine to the best of my knowledge. The properties have full power connected also. Since their purchase, both my sister and parents have discovered that their properties are now considered as illegal builds. In the case of my sister, she takes it all with a grain of salt and says, what's to be will be. My parents on the other hand are somewhat elderly with now no property in the UK and unable to sell the Spanish property even if they wanted to. Needless to say, this is very stressful on them.

Given the above, I would never consider Spain and especially as people are left with this dreadful situation that was no fault of their own. Anyone considering Spain should take into consideration such possibilities as these.


----------



## bikersteve

Ash Jez said:


> I originally considered a move to Spain as both my sister and parents are living there. Neither parties a stupid and bought off plan about eight years ago and between them, spent about 400K. The sales went through with no problems and the builder was fine to the best of my knowledge. The properties have full power connected also. Since their purchase, both my sister and parents have discovered that their properties are now considered as illegal builds. In the case of my sister, she takes it all with a grain of salt and says, what's to be will be. My parents on the other hand are somewhat elderly with now no property in the UK and unable to sell the Spanish property even if they wanted to. Needless to say, this is very stressful on them.
> 
> Given the above, I would never consider Spain and especially as people are left with this dreadful situation that was no fault of their own. Anyone considering Spain should take into consideration such possibilities as these.


My friends in Spain Are struggling to survive,the mortgage is high,he works in London for a few weeks then flys back home for a while then back to London .if and when we move out ? We will do as much investigating as poss ? A little ruin with some land is our dream ?..if we had £400 k we wouldn't spend on a place ?..I feel sorry for your parents..makes us feel lucky..


----------



## Ash Jez

BikerSteve. Spain is not a bad place as regards the ordinary people and both parents and sister enjoy life there. The corruption is the problem and has been the case, even when a Mayor is found guilty of taking bribes, he is in a position to pay his way out of jail/prison with his corrupt takings. To make things even worse, the be re-elected as a Mayor as before.

If you really wanted to purchase a place in Spain, an old property would be wise, but you must still ensure that all the papers are correct. A friend of mine purchase a semi detached old place in Spain. Between the two properties, both needed major works and my friend was under the impression that the neighbouring property was being sold at the same time as his. This was not the case. Any, friend and wife spent good money on renovating their place and never gave too much though about the attached unsold place next door until one night, the attached property started to collapse, the roof, during the collapse, it brought a part of their own home down. The attached property was not insured and the insurance company would no pay out and gave all sorts of excuses. These friends of mine spent a fortune fighting the case and lost to the big boys. They now live in half a house as they can't legally touch next door in an attempt to secure their own home.

Tread with care.


----------



## bikersteve

Ash Jez said:


> BikerSteve. Spain is not a bad place as regards the ordinary people and both parents and sister enjoy life there. The corruption is the problem and has been the case, even when a Mayor is found guilty of taking bribes, he is in a position to pay his way out of jail/prison with his corrupt takings. To make things even worse, the be re-elected as a Mayor as before.
> 
> If you really wanted to purchase a place in Spain, an old property would be wise, but you must still ensure that all the papers are correct. A friend of mine purchase a semi detached old place in Spain. Between the two properties, both needed major works and my friend was under the impression that the neighbouring property was being sold at the same time as his. This was not the case. Any, friend and wife spent good money on renovating their place and never gave too much though about the attached unsold place next door until one night, the attached property started to collapse, the roof, during the collapse, it brought a part of their own home down. The attached property was not insured and the insurance company would no pay out and gave all sorts of excuses. These friends of mine spent a fortune fighting the case and lost to the big boys. They now live in half a house as they can't legally touch next door in an attempt to secure their own home.
> 
> Tread with care.


Jeez those poor people ? Any place we do buy,won't have neighbours,..well not joined to us ? We take in all people like your good self tell us,and store it up for the future..we know people are good all round the world..one can only take as many measures as poss not to get ripped off ?..plenty of time on the computer and trips out to portugal / spain:ranger:


----------



## Ash Jez

Bikersteve. That's the answer. To read these forums. You will read so much that you never even thought you needed to take into consideration. Another thought for you is to ensure that both power and water are connected to the property officially and not from a neighbouring property as a temp make do. It can be very problematic getting electric connected as permission is required from other land owners. Also, can be very expensive. Often it's said, electricity close by. Yer, how close? And is your 500 meters the same as their 500 meters. Also, always ensure that the land you buy is the land you get and have ownership over. Plus, that you have legal access over others land if yours is stuck in the middle of a group of fields.

Don't get me wrong as it's not all doom and gloom and do a search on Google for "priors spain". If you've not hear of this, it's a real eye opener.


----------



## canoeman

It'd be very difficult to buy land that you could live on i.e. Urbano or a mix of both Urbano & Rustica " if yours is stuck in the middle of a group of fields" the right of way would be recorded and should the land or part of land yours or surrounding then the "right to buy" of Rustica comes into force.

We have a lot more protection in Portugal and Spain's problems on ownership or title should not be considered as applying here.


----------



## bikersteve

canoeman said:


> It'd be very difficult to buy land that you could live on i.e. Urbano or a mix of both Urbano & Rustica " if yours is stuck in the middle of a group of fields" the right of way would be recorded and should the land or part of land yours or surrounding then the "right to buy" of Rustica comes into force.
> 
> We have a lot more protection in Portugal and Spain's problems on ownership or title should not be considered as applying here.


I'm not even thinking of Spain..portugal is our favourite place of choice,followed by turkey ?..but we have plenty of time to consider ..


----------



## canoeman

I know your not but dangers being pointed out by Ash relate to Spain, Turkey great place for visiting and holidays but non EU country and other considerations it'd be way down my list


----------



## Ash Jez

canoeman said:


> It'd be very difficult to buy land that you could live on i.e. Urbano or a mix of both Urbano & Rustica " if yours is stuck in the middle of a group of fields" the right of way would be recorded and should the land or part of land yours or surrounding then the "right to buy" of Rustica comes into force.
> 
> We have a lot more protection in Portugal and Spain's problems on ownership or title should not be considered as applying here.


Well said Canoeman. Bikersteve is considering Spain or Portugal and my comments are to do with Spain. I hear a lot about Spain and both my sister and parents have separate properties out there. Both deemed as illegal builds. Hence, my input here. You only have to follower the Prior's situation to realise what a mess planning laws are in within Spain. Illegal builds in Andalucia and land grab in Valencia. I'd never purchase in Spain as it's too high risk.

To my mind, it's a country gone nuts with a dreadful reputation in regards to property. Surely they should have the common sense to legalise all properties that are built at this time and restore the confidence of the past. Should they take such measures, it would eventually aid the economy no end and put an end to the legal battles as they are now. I know of many that pay no council rates/tax on their homes because the amount due is unknown by the local authorities. Parents and sister have paid nothing in eight years. Then the country says it's broke. It's beyond me. If they could kick start the property situation and restore confident so that people buy, work becomes available and those workers should then pay tax. Huh, such thoughts are all to simple for those in authority. Mind you, why should they care, after all, they still receive money under the table and live good lives.

Portugal seems to have their land divisions, uses etc. and rights of way property controlled. Spain on the other hand, without doubt in my mind, has a situation where the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing.


----------



## canoeman

Just that someone picking up your post on a Portuguese forum might *not* realize your referring to Spain if they've not followed from beginning and create confusion and doubt with the far safer buying process we enjoy


----------



## Ash Jez

Good point canoeman. I never thought of that as I read threads from beginning to end. STAY SAFE, BUY IN PORTUGAL but rent first.

And I forgot to mention that parents and sister received an email saying to action was being taken against them over their properties. Case numbers and everything supplied. How did they receive the email, through a friend as the court never contacted them directly.

Content of the email, in brief. Appear in court and justify why your property should not be demolished. Great. Yes your honour, grovel, grovel, I bought my property in good faith as by home, Grovel, Grovel. What crap is that. Best of all, not appearance dates given and nothing heard since.

Sure I'm bitter as I care about my family, father at 90, mother 80, sister 55. I care about all the other poor souls too. But at least if the worst happens I have a 4 bed home in the uk so could accommodate them all. That said, my dad would have to go up the stair on his bum as he can't cope with stairs these days.


----------



## bikersteve

canoeman said:


> I know your not but dangers being pointed out by Ash relate to Spain, Turkey great place for visiting and holidays but non EU country and other considerations it'd be way down my list


Turkey only on our list because of a Turkish friend we have ?portugal at top ..every country has it's problems..all compounded by the global economy thing..we are not wearing rose tinted specs..that's why we come on this forum..if my health doesn't improve I doubt I be going anywhere ?..lane: but I can dream ..


----------



## Ash Jez

bikersteve said:


> I be going anywhere ?..lane: but I can dream ..


On another forum my signature is "From This Point On - Our Dreams Continue"


----------



## bikersteve

Your dad sounds like me ? I find stairs difficult ?.he,he..I think we should stop hijacking this thread now ?..Any news from the lady who started it ?


----------



## titania

Yes, here she is 

Just been asking on the Spanish forum if city gas was available in Spain for central heating - so I guess I could ask the same question here?



bikersteve said:


> ....Any news from the lady who started it ?


----------



## canoeman

In very limited areas, bottled gas mainly but *don't *consider it for central heating very expensive, alternatives are wood pellet, wood back boilers, diesel


----------



## bikersteve

titania said:


> Yes, here she is
> 
> Just been asking on the Spanish forum if city gas was available in Spain for central heating - so I guess I could ask the same question here?


Hi Titania ,how you doing ?..here in the UK ,we have a coal fire,supplemented with wood,plus a calor gas fire and electric heaters..the free wood we collect helps keep the bills down, and I know if I was in portugal I'd have a log burner,but somebody on here,told usd we wouldn't be able to get free wood out in portugal ?..which I find hard to believe ?


----------



## titania

Canoeman, thanks. What figures would one be talking about when one says "expensive" - for city gas that is (I couldn't deal with bottles)? Here in France, it costs me about 2'500 euros per year for an old badly insulated 250 sq.mts. house, and I find it so much cheaper than electricity or renewable energy (see my post in the Spanish forum, here). I guess if city gas is only available in certain towns, this will severely restrict my choice for relocation --- better find out before my trip in May, so I concentrate on these gas-full cities


----------



## titania

Hi BikerSteve, I can't see myself lugging wood when I'm old, decrepit, full of rhumatism and catarrh.....


----------



## bikersteve

titania said:


> Hi BikerSteve, I can't see myself lugging wood when I'm old, decrepit, full of rhumatism and catarrh.....


He,he i know what you mean,I'm 57 and in the past year iv gone from being fit and healthy,to barely able to walk or breath..


----------



## Guest

*Bottles vs Tanks*

There are also LPG tanks so you dont need to play with bottled gas.



titania said:


> Canoeman, thanks. What figures would one be talking about when one says "expensive" - for city gas that is (I couldn't deal with bottles)? Here in France, it costs me about 2'500 euros per year for an old badly insulated 250 sq.mts. house, and I find it so much cheaper than electricity or renewable energy (see my post in the Spanish forum, here). I guess if city gas is only available in certain towns, this will severely restrict my choice for relocation --- better find out before my trip in May, so I concentrate on these gas-full cities


----------



## titania

castros_bro said:


> There are also LPG tanks so you dont need to play with bottled gas.


Now you're talking  Will look up my bills tonight to see how many Kw I use exactly now, and try to extrapolate to Portugal costs....


----------



## Guest

You'll also find that the vast shale gas reserves which have been found against the dwindling oil reserves will make bulk LPG far cheaper than oil (mazot) in the future.


----------



## titania

castros_bro said:


> You'll also find that the vast shale gas reserves which have been found against the dwindling oil reserves will make bulk LPG far cheaper than oil (mazot) in the future.


Ah ha! that certainly is a good point to mention. Has this already happened in the countries where shale gas is now in production?


----------



## Guest

There's a lot of shale gas plays going on at present. What's happening in the US of A is at a more advanced stage then elsewhere and their economic recovery is being fuelled (in both senses) by shale gas. There's even a move to use shale gas as a raw product to make diesel because it's already economically viable, such as. Shale Glut Becomes $2 Diesel Using Gas-to-Liquids Plants - Bloomberg. Europe is behind the US of A but going in the same direction as we have a less centralised energy sector with different countries doing their own thing.





titania said:


> Ah ha! that certainly is a good point to mention. Has this already happened in the countries where shale gas is now in production?


----------



## titania

castros_bro said:


> There's a lot of shale gas plays going on at present. What's happening in the US of A is at a more advanced stage then elsewhere and their economic recovery is being fuelled (in both senses) by shale gas. There's even a move to use shale gas as a raw product to make diesel because it's already economically viable, such as. Shale Glut Becomes $2 Diesel Using Gas-to-Liquids Plants - Bloomberg. Europe is behind the US of A but going in the same direction as we have a less centralised energy sector with different countries doing their own thing.


Thank you for this link. In the same publication, they also have an article dated today 19 February 2013 stating that for the UK, shale gas use/productivity in somewhat useful quantities won't be for the having till beyond 2020 -- only 7 years to wait if all goes well (article). Guess Spain and Portugal will be even slower...

So, LPG might fit the bill for my warm desires, hehehehehe...  Thanks for all this information


----------



## canoeman

Regardless Portugal has no natural gas so it's all imported either by tanker or pipeline a more sustainable cheaper alternative is the bio-fuel pellets easy to handle and give a very high kw output and also manufactured in Spain & Portugal.

see following to get some idea of cost of natural gas, but you are seriously limiting your choice of location if natural gas is a must, LPG as a fuel for central heating is ludicrously expensive and tanks have their own limitation on placement, inspection etc

Início--Gas Natural Fenosa
your positive energy - Galp Energia
EDP


----------



## titania

canoeman said:


> Regardless Portugal has no natural gas so it's all imported either by tanker or pipeline a more sustainable cheaper alternative is the bio-fuel pellets easy to handle and give a very high kw output and also manufactured in Spain & Portugal.
> 
> see following to get some idea of cost of natural gas, but you are seriously limiting your choice of location if natural gas is a must, LPG as a fuel for central heating is ludicrously expensive and tanks have their own limitation on placement, inspection etc
> 
> Início--Gas Natural Fenosa
> your positive energy - Galp Energia
> EDP


Canoeman, thank you 

As I was saying on the other thread (here)....

As for any type of wood burning (even coal burning), I am not willing to sort, stock, shift and clean all that. How on earth will I be able to do that when I get really old and can barely carry a bag of groceries? Will I even be capable of remembering to load the pellet furnace? Would I remember not to wear a scarf near the boiler? I've looked after old people and it's not easy for them dealing with these every day routines. Gas, natural or propane, is now a modern easy way of dealing with heating. Turn it on and off once a year. From what I've read on this forum, propane tanks even have a notice sent to the supplier when gas is low. Have a contract for the equipment and purging radiators and that's it. Anything more complicated could turn into a huge liability.

I'd be willing to save on many other luxuries in life, but not on heating. If I could, I'd live in a country where no heating is needed. Unfortunately, no "civilised" country around the Mediterranean has this climate, at the same time as having a cultural life and easy short air connections with the UK. After much searching, the only two approaching these requirements were Portugal and Spain. 

My present use of natural gas in France is 35'000kWh at a cost of about 2'500 Euros.

To recap: 250 sq.mts. Old uninsulated house with 8 people plus huge 40 sq.mts half insulated veranda used as a living room. Mountain climate, average 0°C or less in winter. Peaks at 6-7°C and troughs at -10-15°C. Heating on from last week September or first of October, heating off last week of April. Temperature at 23-25°C here, anything less and I hibernate. New condensating gas boiler in insulated shed outside, new cheap radiators with apparent pvc pipes (not sunk in walls). No hot water with gas (it's solar and electric), no gas cooking.

If I were living in Portugal, I would have a much smaller house, and the winter would be less harsh and less long, so the expense would likely be considerably less than in France, even if Portuguese prices for gas are exhorbitant. Yeah!

I've posted the October 2012 average prices for Spain for all energies on the other thread (link above).


----------



## anapedrosa

Hi Titania,
I've been watching this thread with interest. When looking at heating options we considered wood and pellets. We also wanted a system that would be easy to keep warm. I just returned from a week in Portugal, to Canada, I was in a modern apartment rental with central heating and felt cold the whole time I was there. It takes time to warm the walls.

For the house we are building, we opted for solar with electric backup, with an underfloor heating. We are also supplementing this with an energy efficient fireplace which should keep our open concept living/dining/kitchen area nice and toasty on the colder days. I expect we will also put electric mattress pads and towel heaters (in the apartment I warmed my clothing and a small blanket on the heaters to help me keep warm).
The electric heat pump is an energy efficient unit - and we know electric is costly, but we believe we have made the right choice.

It's strange that indoors in Canada, with -10C weather, I finally feel warm. I have to say, I did not bring warm enough clothes to Portugal - we certainly will bring our winter wear when we move.


----------



## titania

From Canoeman's link, natural gas prices for Faro, Olhã and Portimão are between 0-0600 to 0-0656 €/kWh so for 35'000 kWh that would be about 2'296 Euros for the most expensive (plus whatever subscription costs, etc.). Same as in France roughly. And in Portugal, I would use probably half less, or even less. Although you are right in saying I would be severely restricting my choice of locations.


----------



## titania

anapedrosa said:


> Hi Titania,
> I've been watching this thread with interest. When looking at heating options we considered wood and pellets. We also wanted a system that would be easy to keep warm. I just returned from a week in Portugal, to Canada, I was in a modern apartment rental with central heating and felt cold the whole time I was there. It takes time to warm the walls.
> 
> For the house we are building, we opted for solar with electric backup, with an underfloor heating. We are also supplementing this with an energy efficient fireplace which should keep our open concept living/dining/kitchen area nice and toasty on the colder days. I expect we will also put electric mattress pads and towel heaters (in the apartment I warmed my clothing and a small blanket on the heaters to help me keep warm).
> The electric heat pump is an energy efficient unit - and we know electric is costly, but we believe we have made the right choice.
> 
> It's strange that indoors in Canada, with -10C weather, I finally feel warm. I have to say, I did not bring warm enough clothes to Portugal - we certainly will bring our winter wear when we move.


Hi Ana, thanks for your reply.

I really do like gas. The heat is nice, no condensation, easy to install, easy to maintain. Propane tanks would be a little less easy, but, to my mind, better than wood furnaces. As for a heat pump, been there, done that, no more thank you 

Now, there might be an alternative solution, that is as long as I am still upright on my legs and my fingers don't get twisted with rheumatism...

Well, maybe this would be my imagination running amock, but read this. When I was stuck for heating with no money to replace the whole central heating, I rigged 5 electric water heaters together, connected them to circulators and expansion tanks and pvc pipes to new radiators. Admittedly, the yearly bill was about 4'500 Euros -- but that was half as much as the heat pump -- and the system worked very very well. The adjustment of the speed of the circulators was a bit finicky at first, but then it worked throughout the winter with no problems.

Now, if the south of Portugal gets 300 days of sun per year, plus the occasional one or two hours per day, more or less, in the remaining 65 days, perhaps one could mount solar water panels to pre-heat the same electric water heaters...

If one has vacuum tubes in the panels (like those on the roof of my present house), willing to build them oneself, it might be a solution because they are highly efficient with only a few hours sunshine.

During the day, the thermostat of the water heaters would not start as the hot water coming from the solar panels would be up to 120°C, and at night, electricity would take over the heating of the tanks to a temperature of 65°C. Provided there's a low night rate for electricity, it could be worth it.

As sunrise to sunset on 21 December is about 10 hours, which is 2 more than where I am presently, there would be 20% more chances for a small moment of sunshine during the day even on the shortest day of the year.

As for those days really without any sun, a few oil-filled radiators or fans might be enough?

Crackey, that does not solve the problem of the loss of memory to remember to switch on the oil-filled radiators....


----------



## anapedrosa

Hopefully the heat pump solution we have chosen will give us better results. I don't have the know how to assemble the system you have described. The advice we have received suggests that the heat pump is energy efficient.
The system will also heat our water, so in the summer solar should be quite efficient. We will be an hour north of Lisbon, so the electric will kick in at times. 

I also rely on a shorter winter than we have in Canada (in Ottawa we start heat in Oct and it is still going parts of April).

I certainly agree with you on keeping warm - knees, fingers, sigh - ack enough - my parents are 80 and 87 and complain less than I do.


----------



## oronero

Titania, a few years ago I considered buying a property in France as it was close to the UK and prices seemed very reasonable. 

However with the budget that I could afford this left me with the central eastern region to choose a location from, Burgundy, Champagne-Ardenne, Lorraine etc. There appeared to be plenty of decent sized properties where it seemed that you could add value to them by rebuilding and updating. I thought that I had found the ideal spot for me, central European location, good links for 70% of my markets etc. etc.

I then started to check the weather patterns and all seemed acceptable between mid-spring and early-autumn, then came the shock. I had never seen such a deep blue shade for the rest of the period's climate temperature...it seemed to spread from Russia through to mid-France.

It would have been worse winters than I have experienced in the UK and instead of having work disruption for anything between 3-6 weeks, as in the UK, it would be the same amount but in months for France....Brrrrrrrr! 

There ended my French dream! 

Keeping warm is important for the body and also for my work materials and with the ever increasing costs and finite resources available, I thought it best to go where the sun does it for free most of the time, hence I am in this section of the forum. 

Portugal was not my initial choice but upon weighing up everything it will be the most suitable place to develop my business and given my circumstances the most logical place to settle, it took a while but I am happy with my choice now.


----------



## canoeman

I would again suggest you look at wood pellet options with central heating and building/installin
ng a system that allows various options to come together.

New build or renovation where it's possible to install underfloor is an ideal heat source here but not powered by gas/LPG, we have 1 friend here who can afford to run gas c/heating and that's only because they have a very small new build house 2 bed,bathroom, kitchen/diner/lounge with good insulation, yes winters are shorter here but don't believe that anywhere in Portugal doesn't require heat during the winter it does and older properties would probably benefit from dehumidifiers. 

Ana what's the heat source for the underfloor?


----------



## anapedrosa

Canoeman - heat source for underfloor is solar with electric heat pump as the backup. In addition to the 300 litre tank, there is a 100 litre reserve to hold extra pre-heated water. We investigated the wood pellet option, but in the end decided to go with the electric.


----------



## canoeman

more expensive but if you can go for evacuated tube, really don't think that standard type tubes are efficient enough to supply an underfloor heat system adequatley


----------



## anapedrosa

I'll ask - thanks. Hmm, you wouldn't have the Portuguese name for that would you, or perhaps an internet reference that I could print an image?


----------



## anapedrosa

anapedrosa said:


> I'll ask - thanks. Hmm, you wouldn't have the Portuguese name for that would you, or perhaps an internet reference that I could print an image?


Never mind - I just did a google search and came up with all the references I will need.


----------



## canoeman

Try this Solar thermal collector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 

a google translate says Evacuadas tubos solares


----------



## oronero

canoeman said:


> ... yes winters are shorter here but don't believe that anywhere in Portugal doesn't require heat during the winter it does and older properties would probably benefit from dehumidifiers.


I do not expect that the winters around the Cascais to Ericeira region to be as bad as the UK. I have just managed this year in West Yorkshire without any form of heating, with the exception of a couple of hot water bottles! 

Surely the Portuguese areas that I have mentioned and many further southwards would not be as harsh as what I have experienced this year?

I am well aware of the damp air/ sea mist that this area of Portugal experiences, during the autumn winter months. I was over a couple of years ago for a funeral during this period and was reminded of it, still not as bad as a UK winter. Plus being in my mid 40's means I don't get as cold as some of the more mature ones!


----------



## senorat

oronero said:


> I do not expect that the winters around the Cascais to Ericeira region to be as bad as the UK. I have just managed this year in West Yorkshire without any form of heating, with the exception of a couple of hot water bottles!
> 
> Surely the Portuguese areas that I have mentioned and many further southwards would not be as harsh as what I have experienced this year?
> 
> I am well aware of the damp air/ sea mist that this area of Portugal experiences, during the autumn winter months. I was over a couple of years ago for a funeral during this period and was reminded of it, still not as bad as a UK winter. Plus being in my mid 40's means I don't get as cold as some of the more mature ones!


Gosh! I live in South Yorkshire and could never do without the heating on, except maybe for three months of the year! I think if you can manage a UK winter with no heating, you'll be fine in Portugal. We lived in Cascais for a few years and the coldest it ever got was 5 degrees. That is not to say that I wouldn't have loved CH, I used to sit in front of our electric bar heater!!


----------



## canoeman

Everyone's personal requirements are different you might find winters here great, and we do most of the time, for me/us houses still require heating so it's sensible for anyone making a move here to be realistic and to make provision for heating and costs. Climate can vary considerably here and also property especially 50 to 70's builds


----------



## oronero

senorat said:


> Gosh! I live in South Yorkshire and could never do without the heating on, except maybe for three months of the year! I think if you can manage a UK winter with no heating, you'll be fine in Portugal. We lived in Cascais for a few years and the coldest it ever got was 5 degrees. That is not to say that I wouldn't have loved CH, I used to sit in front of our electric bar heater!!


*Senorat*, thankyou for confirming what I believed to be true. 

I should point out that there were a few days this winter that I did dress in full snowboard gear, including boots, to stay warm whilst indoors! 

At the moment it is 1 deg Celcius in Castleford...feels like spring, I'm only dressed in tee-shirt and hoodie...oh yeah, 'long johns' under the jeans!


----------



## oronero

canoeman said:


> Everyone's personal requirements are different you might find winters here great, and we do most of the time, for me/us houses still require heating so it's sensible for anyone making a move here to be realistic and to make provision for heating and costs. Climate can vary considerably here and also property especially 50 to 70's builds


My mothers house is the converted 'Cow sheds' from the 50's...nice thick stone walls and when I was over for a funeral a couble of years ago, I stayed in my grandmothers house. This was built around the 70's with the Portuguese bricks, I could have done with a hot water bottle just to make the bed a little more inviting for the initial 30 seconds but still no way as cold as here in the UK for me.


----------



## canoeman

As I said we each have our own personal levels for cold or heat, me us we like a warm environment and have owned old and new property so know what to expect 
Instituto Português do Mar e da Atmosfera


----------



## oronero

..another great link, thankyou!


----------



## canoeman

Not had a chance to read or investigate but looks as if there might be possibly of some subsidies 
Painéis solares e janelas eficientes: saiba como obter apoio - DECO PROTESTE

last scheme was very restrictive


----------



## DonAlberto

miradouro said:


> ... The rain in the winter in Portugal north of the Algarve can be Ireland-like: makes things greener, of course (I myself like seasons), but if winter sun is important - and it is for most retirees considering Spain - the Mediterranean (or the Algarve) is a sunnier and warmer place December-March.


You can say that again - and repeat it several times. Returned 3 weeks ago to sunny Argentina from a 4 week reconnaissance trip to Porto, Coimbra and Lisboa. Rain 25 days out of 28, had to buy 2 brollys


----------



## BodgieMcBodge

I've a place in Belem Para Brasil and Portugal, the wet season rain in Brasil would take your umbrella away but you still wear shorts, Portugal you shivver in wet coats on depressing gray days till the sun comes out. Best to stay away from Portugal in the winter and go find a Southern summer below the equator.



DonAlberto said:


> You can say that again - and repeat it several times. Returned 3 weeks ago to sunny Argentina from a 4 week reconnaissance trip to Porto, Coimbra and Lisboa. Rain 25 days out of 28, had to buy 2 brollys


----------



## steve01

It really depends on where you are in Portugal
We live close to Sines on the coastal Alentejo (costa azul)
so far this year - from 1st Jan
We've had several BBQ's, i've got a sunburned nose we've sat outside enjoying the sun in shorts = topless on our admitteditly sheltered patio at least a dozen times and we've only put the heating on a handful of times
The only really miserable weather has been the last 7 days when its been wet, windy and sometimes cold at night.
We have other properties on the Algarve - within a couple of kilometres to the sea and its been even nicer there - lots of 15-25c, lots of sun, interspersed with a few torrential downpours and some wind.
The North and some parts of Central Portugal are as different as the North of Scotland and the South of England.
Choose the correct facing house - southerly in the correct regions - Coastal Alentejo )South of Setubal) or the coastal Algarve.
Basically choose right and you have the best climate in Europe here without the slighest need to change hemispheres


----------



## oronero

BodgieMcBodge said:


> I've a place in Belem Para Brasil and Portugal, the wet season rain in Brasil would take your umbrella away but you still wear shorts, Portugal you shivver in wet coats on depressing gray days till the sun comes out. Best to stay away from Portugal in the winter and go find a Southern summer below the equator.


Your description of the wet rainy season in Portugal sound so familiar to those that are from the UK, except even the rain shivers in the UK!


----------



## Ash Jez

I in the UK I would be happy to have the heating on just 20% less and if I could achieve that in Portugal, I would be more than happy as the bills are a real killer. here. Perhaps sometime in the future, I'll be able to sell up and move to the place of my dreams.


----------



## Ash Jez

The big question is Spain vs Portugal.

Well here is an email my sister received today. She live in the wonderful Spain.

Contact: Maura Hillen xxxxxxxxxxxxx



Lights out for British property owners 

AUAN, 11th March 2013


In the latest twist to the saga of illegal properties in Spain, authorities in Andalucia have ordered the disconnection of electricity and water to 19 homes occupied by elderly British retirees, even though the same authority has already agreed that the properties can be made legal.

Each couple spent between 160,000 and 265,000 Euros of their life savings on a retirement home in the area of El Fas in the small town of Cantoria , Almeria only to discover that the Dutch promoter had constructed the properties without planning permission in full view of the town hall. The promoter, Southern Spain Consultants C.B., was convicted of planning crimes in 2011 in a judgement that acknowledged that the homeowner’s who had assisted in the prosecution had acted in good faith. However, no order was made that they should be compensated and the promoters received a minimum sentence and fine.

In 2012 the regional government, the Junta de Andalucia, agreed that the properties could be legalised under the terms of a new Decree which, they promised, would bring order to some 300,000 illegal properties in the region.

In spite of this agreement, the same authority continues to pursue proceedings against the properties and has ordered disconnection of all public services which, apparently, cannot be reconnected until the properties become fully legal, a process which can take many years.

Facing the prospect of more legal bills and life on an electricity generator, many have decided to give up the fight and abandon their homes to their fate.

Adding insult to injury, the only property on the estate of 19 houses that continues to enjoy public services is the one owned and occupied by the developer.

Maura Hillen from AUAN, an organisation that campaigns on behalf of homeowners impacted by the problem of illegal houses in Spain , said “These people have invested more than 3 million Euros in Spain and in return they are being treated disgracefully by a system that simply does not function to protect homeowners. And I am sorry to say that this is not an isolated case. Many thousands of illegal homeowners live in fear of disconnection and the regional government’s latest legal ‘solutions’ have simply served to make matters worse”.

So ask again Spain vs Portugal


----------



## oronero

So sad reading this, what a fiasco. It cannot be good for both the mental and physical health of those caught up in it. 

So my comment and about dubious practices by an industry in one country, on another thread, may have some grounds.

I would tread very carefully with regards to those industries that are now trying to expand into Portugal and saying things are possible when that may well not be the case.


----------



## brodev

I spent the winters in my house in Estepona in CDS for 15 years. but I moved to Lagos for family reasons 6 years ago. I have no doubts that the winter temperature in Estepona is consistently warmer than Lagos. Also Lagos is wetter. The health service in CDS is much better than Algarve. Cars, fuel, propane gas and electrical items are more expensive in Algarve. Eating out is cheaper in Algarve. Another difference in eating out is timing. In CDS the earliest we would go out was 8.30 PM, !n Algarve 8,30 PM is the latest we would go out. Cities and shops in CDS are more plentiful and varied. I regularly heard of petty crime from my friends in CDS and I have experienced a couple of thefts including a bag snatch but I have rarely heard of any in Algarve. I liked the Spanish people I met as generally they were friendly and caring but they did not come close to the friendliness of the Portuguese people that I have met. Tradesmen from yellow pages(especially Brits) rip expats off in both countries but in Algarve there appears to be lots of local recommendations who give value for money. All thing considered I prefer Lagos but I did like Estepona


----------



## Ash Jez

oronero said:


> So my comment and about dubious practices by an industry in one country, on another thread, may have some grounds.
> 
> I would tread very carefully with regards to those industries that are now trying to expand into Portugal and saying things are possible when that may well not be the case.


I think that Portugal as a country has far more sense in the planning application process and care about their country side far more than miserable Spain.

Had Portugal wanted to jump on the bandwagon as did the Spanish, they would have do so and I give them credit for not falling into that trap.:clap2:


----------



## BodgieMcBodge

But here says 

**the Dutch promoter had constructed the properties without planning permission in full view of the town hall. The promoter, Southern Spain Consultants C.B., was convicted of planning crimes in 2011**

Is not the Dutch builders (promotor?) at fault and convicted?







Ash Jez said:


> The big question is Spain vs Portugal.
> 
> Well here is an email my sister received today. She live in the wonderful Spain.
> 
> Contact: Maura Hillen xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> 
> 
> Lights out for British property owners
> 
> AUAN, 11th March 2013
> 
> 
> In the latest twist to the saga of illegal properties in Spain, authorities in Andalucia have ordered the disconnection of electricity and water to 19 homes occupied by elderly British retirees, even though the same authority has already agreed that the properties can be made legal.
> 
> Each couple spent between 160,000 and 265,000 Euros of their life savings on a retirement home in the area of El Fas in the small town of Cantoria , Almeria only to discover that the Dutch promoter had constructed the properties without planning permission in full view of the town hall. The promoter, Southern Spain Consultants C.B., was convicted of planning crimes in 2011 in a judgement that acknowledged that the homeowner’s who had assisted in the prosecution had acted in good faith. However, no order was made that they should be compensated and the promoters received a minimum sentence and fine.
> 
> In 2012 the regional government, the Junta de Andalucia, agreed that the properties could be legalised under the terms of a new Decree which, they promised, would bring order to some 300,000 illegal properties in the region.
> 
> In spite of this agreement, the same authority continues to pursue proceedings against the properties and has ordered disconnection of all public services which, apparently, cannot be reconnected until the properties become fully legal, a process which can take many years.
> 
> Facing the prospect of more legal bills and life on an electricity generator, many have decided to give up the fight and abandon their homes to their fate.
> 
> Adding insult to injury, the only property on the estate of 19 houses that continues to enjoy public services is the one owned and occupied by the developer.
> 
> Maura Hillen from AUAN, an organisation that campaigns on behalf of homeowners impacted by the problem of illegal houses in Spain , said “These people have invested more than 3 million Euros in Spain and in return they are being treated disgracefully by a system that simply does not function to protect homeowners. And I am sorry to say that this is not an isolated case. Many thousands of illegal homeowners live in fear of disconnection and the regional government’s latest legal ‘solutions’ have simply served to make matters worse”.
> 
> So ask again Spain vs Portugal


----------



## Ash Jez

BodgieMcBodge said:


> But here says
> 
> **the Dutch promoter had constructed the properties without planning permission in full view of the town hall. The promoter, Southern Spain Consultants C.B., was convicted of planning crimes in 2011**
> 
> Is not the Dutch builders (promotor?) at fault and convicted?


 If this is the case then I stand corrected and this practice should be nipped in the butt pronto and that the Portuguese authorities should remove the properties immediately. The developers should pay the cost of removal also and be heavily fined to act as a deterrent to the crazy Dutch/Spanish developers.


----------



## oronero

It matters little that the developer was not originally from that country, that trade is notorious for having a fair few cowboys even here in the UK, as are many other trades.

However more worrying is that this development was taking place in view of the local authority who did what appears to be very little to prevent this from continuing. It seems that the properties were finished and people allowed to live in them before action commenced.

It all smells very fishy to me, it would not surprise me if bribery and corruption have been evident in this sad tale.


----------



## Ash Jez

And my reply remains the same. The buildings should be knocked down and the people that purchased reimbursed, compensated for inconvenience and those responsible prosecuted and fined. Further, if bribery had be the case and proven, those people imprisoned for a suitable time. The point here is that you can't allow this to happen else the whole system of land designation breaks down leading to situations like that of Spain.


----------



## canoeman

This has been going on for years in Spain to date nothing has really changed and the chances of your thoughts being enacted about zero, it's shocking for those involved but unless central Government do something definitive to force resolutions to all planning problems nothing is 
likely to change especially with Spain's political set up and vested interests.

Luckily in Portugal we do not have the same or similar problems, yes people do get duped but if correct checks etc are made they shouldn't, part of that is buyers understanding the buying and contract processes in Portugal.


----------



## BodgieMcBodge

Do you have more from this law case? I can only find same copy of AUAN article in three websites but no other details. If buildings was illeagle do not the buyers lawyer check before they buy or is building legal when they buy and later made illeagle?


----------



## Ash Jez

BodgieMcBodge said:


> Do you have more from this law case? I can only find same copy of AUAN article in three websites but no other details. If buildings was illeagle do not the buyers lawyer check before they buy or is building legal when they buy and later made illeagle?


In the case of Spain, the buildings were legal (for the most part), under the local town halls following construction and then purchase. After this time the Spanish authorities saw fit to say that we do not want the house/flat/developments and that permission should not have been give (by higher authorities). Then they were made illegal. You can't fail to find more information on this.


----------



## BodgieMcBodge

I look with Google but can not find this court case, maybe it has another name, do you have any link for this case? I am trying to find if the building was illeagle before the buyers paid. 

But for this ARUN says the building was without planning permission before 2011 conviction 

**Almeria only to discover that the Dutch promoter had constructed the properties without planning permission in full view of the town hall. The promoter, Southern Spain Consultants C.B., was convicted of planning crimes in 2011**

I think it is normal for buyers lawyer to check building is illeagle.?




then after court case 


Ash Jez said:


> In the case of Spain, the buildings were legal (for the most part), under the local town halls following construction and then purchase. After this time the Spanish authorities saw fit to say that we do not want the house/flat/developments and that permission should not have been give (by higher authorities). Then they were made illegal. You can't fail to find more information on this.


----------



## Ash Jez

Here is how the system appears to work in Spain. A landowner considers selling their land to a developer. The developer approaches the local authorities and asks for permission. The big man at the local authorities says to the developer, give me money under to counter for my back pocket and you can have planning permission. The developers pays the big man and the developer receives planning permission. Now the proposed development is legal and when the property is build it is still legal. The house is marketed by the developer and unsuspecting people see the plans or the built house and are impressed and happy to buy. The purchaser then sees the legal profession. They say, all is good and on some occasions it is. Sometimes their are problems and the legal man says, give me money under the table and I shall close my eyes. The deal is done and the house appears to be legal. Later, the BIG, BIG, BIG man says why are all the properties built when we did not want them. They investigate and find the little big man was taking money under the table for his back pocket. The BIG, BIG man says they must not do this but they continue as all those back pockets are getting fatter and fatter. The VERY BIG man says we must do something about this problem but his pocket is getting fatter also and now he wants 2 more yachts and needs to change his little plane to a bigger jet.

Next all is out of control and they say ALL these properties are illegal and must be demolished. Now mum and dad are worried because their houses are threatened with demolition. Some times as is the case with the Prior's in Spain the demolition goes ahead because their 300K property has now become illegal. Now they live in their garage.

Next, because of all the bad publicity they decide to make the properties legal again and now mum and dad are happy again but the Spanish authorities are very confused so after this, say the properties will have the water and electric disconnects (because they are illegal) and now nobody knows what will happen next.

Now, if you like excitement, stress, financial disaster and wish to have a heart attack, you can achieve all this by buying in Spain.


----------



## steve01

The final nail in the Spanish coffin
Any one seriously thinking of buying there with any worldwide assets must be insane.

Latest insane legislation - look at the Spanish forum for details
Declaration of all assets outside of Spain in 3 categories (money, property, investments) if in any of the categories the sum total of the value exceeds €50,000. 

Forget to notify them of one - and the actual legislation is so confusing so far virtually all of the 'experts / financial advisors and tax offices' quoted have given different advice.
The fines are (total asset value +up to an additional 50%)


----------



## Ash Jez

steve01 said:


> The final nail in the Spanish coffin
> Any one seriously thinking of buying there with any worldwide assets must be insane.


 I would agree with that, but as we all know, this is not the only issue. I did read on this or another forum where some lady was in a situation where her father died and Spain wanted death duties on the property. The property is considered illegal and as such, along with the economy, she is unable to sell the house. Also, if I recall correctly, she was not even allowed to sell the property even if she could find a buyer without first having paid the death duties. This she did not have and was unable to raise the funds either. Her closing comments were that she might as well wash her hands of the property where should she be able to do so, perhaps the state would take possession of the property based on the death duties having never been paid. One other point here. If Spain is insisting on death duties, what value would they be putting on the property for those duties.


----------



## canoeman

Maybe you should ask on the Spanish forum, for expats in Portugal there are no death duties between spouses, their parents and children or legally adopted children.


----------



## Ash Jez

My reply was for the topic heading *Portugal vs. Spain*. I tend to be a bit anti Spain as both my parents and sister have properties out there and both have been declared illegal builds with the latest being threatened disconnection of water and electricity to some illegal builds. Fortunately, not the case with my family members.


----------



## Micksantacruz

Ash Jez said:


> My reply was for the topic heading Portugal vs. Spain. I tend to be a bit anti Spain as both my parents and sister have properties out there and both have been declared illegal builds with the latest being threatened disconnection of water and electricity to some illegal builds. Fortunately, not the case with my family members.


How can they take away peoples homes how cruel. To stop water supplies is criminal its like saying move out or die here. Surely the Eu should step in as this is dening human rights !


----------



## Ash Jez

Yes the EU is stepping in and cases are pending and or in progress but unfortunately it is a slow process. Many people out the have joined some organisation to fight the case/s with joint funds but, from what my sister says, little progress is being made at this time. Typical of Spain.


----------



## The Hog

Micksantacruz said:


> How can they take away peoples homes how cruel. To stop water supplies is criminal its like saying move out or die here. Surely the Eu should step in as this is dening human rights !


Where my brother lives, he has been without water and electricity for nearly three years now. He is fighting his case - and making progress - but it is very slow. 
It is quite amazing how he has adapted and improvised to fit his situation. I am quite proud.


----------



## The Hog

I should add - my brother is in Spain, just outside Malaga.


----------



## canoeman

Ash Jez said:


> My reply was for the topic heading *Portugal vs. Spain*. I tend to be a bit anti Spain as both my parents and sister have properties out there and both have been declared illegal builds with the latest being threatened disconnection of water and electricity to some illegal builds. Fortunately, not the case with my family members.


Appreciate that, I take it more to promote the benefits of Portugal where it would be extremely difficult to find any of the same pitfalls as people face in Spain, expats or Spanish


----------



## Ash Jez

The point is that you should not have to fight for such basic rights in a civilised society. Many in Spain have bought in good faith and paid the purchases taxes on properties and then, basically, been crapped on by the system. In the case of electricity and water, I can understand that some may have purchased, possibly foolishly, without connection. That's another issue. But to have had water and electricity connected, and then threatened with disconnection, that's a very different matter. 

If you read further up in this thread, you will see I posted a copy email from my sister. In that email it refers to a development of 19, I think properties. All but one are now considered as illegal. The single one that is considered as being LEGAL is owned by the developer of the site. So what is going on here?


----------



## Ash Jez

canoeman said:


> Appreciate that, I take it more to promote the benefits of Portugal where it would be extremely difficult to find any of the same pitfalls as people face in Spain, expats or Spanish


Exactly. PORTUGAL RULES.:clap2:

And let us not forget the Valencia land grab.


----------



## The Hog

In my brothers situation he had water and electricity for nearly two years, then the estate was declared 'illegal' by the authorities (the same ones that originally said it was OK) and the electricity company disconnected the power saying that it was illegal for them to supply electricity to an illegal build. Now, no properties there have mains electricity just generators.


----------



## Ash Jez

Hog. That's good that you mention this as it strengthen the case for total reform. This is no way people should be expected to live. Constantly, we hear about lack of water etc in Africa and similar but little mention seems to be made of cases such as your brother in what is supposed to be a developed country.


----------



## Micksantacruz

Would this happen in Portugal too? I know of portuguese family who built without permission and actually there house is much better than the ones in the surrounding area


----------



## canoeman

It's possible to build or extend without permission the owner stands the constant risk of being found out fined, made to comply with building regulations or even demolish, without the correct licences etc it would be very difficult to sell.


----------



## BodgieMcBodge

*compare and contrast*

I was warned the British theme is always money and house price. This can compare/contrast with traditional Portugese (Spanish?) where first is Family and living so house is to live in with family not object of investment and they extend house with no paperwork because they are not worried about selling or price. It may not be good for selling but you see many older houses in villages are like this and not being demolished.



canoeman said:


> It's possible to build or extend without permission the owner stands the constant risk of being found out fined, made to comply with building regulations or even demolish, without the correct licences etc it would be very difficult to sell.


----------



## canoeman

Yes Portuguese will traditionally keep a property within family but as Portugal and the world changes, will that continue to be the case? increasingly not, so if they or anyone has gone down the road of altering or building to suit their family needs without permission and come to a point where they need to sell, they have nothing to sell, I don't see that nationality comes into it, it's common sense.

Camaras have the powers to fine and order demolishing I know of a number of instances where fines and improvement work where necessary to bring to standard and Licence and of 1 instance where an illegal extension had to be demolished, without knowing a house's history not sure how you can make such a sweeping statement, they might have permissions, equally they might not but as Camaras come under increasing financial pressures their less likely to look the other way


----------



## Ash Jez

BodgieMcBodge said:


> I was warned the British theme is always money and house price.


 It also has something to do with the state pension being so poor in the UK and the fact that families are not so united - unfortunately.

I've always considered my large property to be part of my future pension when I retire.


----------



## Micksantacruz

Ash Jez said:


> It also has something to do with the state pension being so poor in the UK and the fact that families are not so united - unfortunately.
> 
> I've always considered my large property to be part of my future pension in future years.


Im in the UK we have a house in Portugal. I am seriously considering moving to Portugal as you say family ties are not as strong here as in Portugal . I live 1 hrs away from my children and grandchildren and they never visit unless i go to see them. My wife is Portuguese and her family in Portugal are closer to me. Hence the idea about moving. Plus the fact the UK is going down hill fast.


----------



## Ash Jez

Micksantacruz said:


> Im in the UK we have a house in Portugal. I am seriously considering moving to Portugal as you say family ties are not as strong here as in Portugal . I live 1 hrs away from my children and grandchildren and they never visit unless i go to see them. My wife is Portuguese and her family in Portugal are closer to me. Hence the idea about moving. Plus the fact the UK is going down hill fast.


 It truly saddens me when I read something like this but it is so often a fact and in particular, with the younger generation unless they want something. Fortunately, this is not always the case and as for me, being mid 50's I adore my parents and do all I can to help them.

The UK is so very different now and has become a sad place in many respects. When I was young, I was so very patriotic and would have fought to the death for my homeland, but not now. I consider Portugal as somewhere very special and with old values that still remain. Some people will call them a simple folk and in some ways, without being disrespectful, they are. There is nothing wrong with this because simplicity is the most rewarding way of life and to value your family, friends and home, along with your country is very fulfilling and creates a feeling of well being, relaxation and therefore, one would hope, improved health in the longer term.


----------



## oronero

Micksantacruz said:


> Im in the UK we have a house in Portugal. I am seriously considering moving to Portugal as you say family ties are not as strong here as in Portugal . I live 1 hrs away from my children and grandchildren and they never visit unless i go to see them. My wife is Portuguese and her family in Portugal are closer to me. Hence the idea about moving. Plus the fact the UK is going down hill fast.


Mick, if it's any consolation some Portuguese families also have issues with immediate family members...it's not perfect always.


----------



## Micksantacruz

No not always perfect I agree but the Portuguese are more chilled out and relaxed. Always happy to see you and very friendly.
Its a choice of stay in the UK the rest of my life and be miserable or move to Portugal. Even though I will miss my kids and grand kids. They would be more than welcome to visit me but I know in my heart if I moved I would never see then again unless I visited them. But I have Copd which is getting worse so I guess soon I wont be able to fly


----------



## Micksantacruz

Micksantacruz said:


> No not always perfect I agree but the Portuguese are more chilled out and relaxed. Always happy to see you and very friendly.
> Its a choice of stay in the UK the rest of my life and be miserable or move to Portugal. Even though I will miss my kids and grand kids. They would be more than welcome to visit me but I know in my heart if I moved I would never see then again unless I visited them. But I have Copd which is getting worse so I guess soon I wont be able to fly


Oh sorry yes Im talking about portugal not spain. Guess I just got involved in this thread. Sorry for high jacking you all


----------



## oronero

Mick with a Portuguese wife I assumed that you were referring to Portugal anyway.

I am sure that there are many that have similar tales about family members. I guess the best thing to do is what makes you the happiest as life is short, even though it is tinged with sadness.

If you feel that Portugal will allow you to live in a 'better frame of mind' then there is your answer...especially if you already have a house sitting there.


----------



## Ash Jez

Ash Jez said:


> The big question is Spain vs Portugal.
> 
> Well here is an email my sister received today. She live in the wonderful Spain.
> 
> Contact: Maura Hillen xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> 
> 
> Lights out for British property owners
> 
> AUAN, 11th March 2013
> 
> 
> In the latest twist to the saga of illegal properties in Spain, authorities in Andalucia have ordered the disconnection of electricity and water to 19 homes occupied by elderly British retirees, even though the same authority has already agreed that the properties can be made legal.
> 
> Each couple spent between 160,000 and 265,000 Euros of their life savings on a retirement home in the area of El Fas in the small town of Cantoria , Almeria only to discover that the Dutch promoter had constructed the properties without planning permission in full view of the town hall. The promoter, Southern Spain Consultants C.B., was convicted of planning crimes in 2011 in a judgement that acknowledged that the homeowner’s who had assisted in the prosecution had acted in good faith. However, no order was made that they should be compensated and the promoters received a minimum sentence and fine.
> 
> In 2012 the regional government, the Junta de Andalucia, agreed that the properties could be legalised under the terms of a new Decree which, they promised, would bring order to some 300,000 illegal properties in the region.
> 
> In spite of this agreement, the same authority continues to pursue proceedings against the properties and has ordered disconnection of all public services which, apparently, cannot be reconnected until the properties become fully legal, a process which can take many years.
> 
> Facing the prospect of more legal bills and life on an electricity generator, many have decided to give up the fight and abandon their homes to their fate.
> 
> Adding insult to injury, the only property on the estate of 19 houses that continues to enjoy public services is the one owned and occupied by the developer.
> 
> Maura Hillen from AUAN, an organisation that campaigns on behalf of homeowners impacted by the problem of illegal houses in Spain , said “These people have invested more than 3 million Euros in Spain and in return they are being treated disgracefully by a system that simply does not function to protect homeowners. And I am sorry to say that this is not an isolated case. Many thousands of illegal homeowners live in fear of disconnection and the regional government’s latest legal ‘solutions’ have simply served to make matters worse”.
> 
> So ask again Spain vs Portugal


Here is an update to the above which I posted on the 11th March. Now those 18 properties mentioned above have had the electricity and water disconnected. Most of these properties are being lived in at this time. So the question remains. *Spain vs Portugal*. Go figure yourself.


----------



## jsmoir

Unbelievable. That such criminal activity can happen. Sad.

JS


----------



## titania

jsmoir said:


> Titania- as I speak fluent French, and love the French culture, I am curious why you, as a French person see advantages to living in Portugal- monetary, less crime, pourquoi?
> 
> Merci en avant.
> 
> JS


Jsmoir - 

I want a warm climate for my retirement - rheumatism, you know?

Also, I'd like more or less the same standard of living as I have now (in employment) when I'm retired (with half as much money). France taxation is becoming confiscatory. It's not just income tax, it's all the other taxes. My pension would simply not be enough to carry on living where I am - which is classed as an A zone, like Paris.

And I do not like my present environment, greedy materialistic individualist unsocial unpolished ruffians, busybodies, small-time politickers with big mouths, empty headed middle-class... in a location that reminds me only of difficult moments of my life (been widowed twice here). I've been chasing the bourgeois dream for years coping with a prestigious job of sorts, husbands, houses to maintain according to others' standards, bills to pay for self and family, when I'm a Bohemian in some ways, valuing a straight heart and depth of conviction. I have more in common with my cleaning lady or chimney sweeper, or with engineers (you know those "simple" scientists) than I do with that local middle class which pervades my environment.

As a half urbanite and half peasant, with a dash of multicultural ancestors the world over, I'm never so happy as when I travel, loving to meet the little people and the scientists, and getting tired of snobs with nothing inside heart or head.

Plus I've been an expat twice in my life before, so for me it's a welcome adventure to go to Portugal or elsewhere, perhaps Spain, or at least to some societies where there is still a social sense of sorts, some commitments to ideals, the will to fight for something better, the want of new projects or enterprises, or at a minimum some hope around me that life can be made better with good will and fair work!!!

Anyway, I'm full of contradictory leanings and my present environment does not favor their expression. A country with a mix of expats of all walks of life, and social locals, with some commonality with my culture, with room to explore another way of life would suit me I think. And if not, I'm free to move again, and again, and again, as long as the cost of living is not too high and taxation not prohibitive  so long as my body can take it - let's face it, I may be lucky and live to a ripe old age, but then I may not, who knows. Might as well use my retirement time to test all my leanings, wants and desires.


----------



## jsmoir

*Thanks*

Titania- pour nous, c'est presque la meme chose.

The Midwest of our childhood is gone. It's now a morass of multiculturalism (the bad kind).

We just want 'small town living' and the chance to have our own garden, yet see things and visit Europe once in a while, but 'off the beaten track.'

Just wanted to make sure my last impression of France had not changed... But with Depardieu leaving, I surmised not....

Merci.

JS


----------



## titania

jsmoir said:


> Titania- pour nous, c'est presque la meme chose.
> 
> The Midwest of our childhood is gone. It's now a morass of multiculturalism (the bad kind).
> 
> We just want 'small town living' and the chance to have our own garden, yet see things and visit Europe once in a while, but 'off the beaten track.'
> 
> Just wanted to make sure my last impression of France had not changed... But with Depardieu leaving, I surmised not....
> 
> Merci.
> 
> JS


Depardieu is the visible tip of the iceberg... French youth is leaving the ship in droves, middle managers also, and so are many retirees. Many more who find they can't move push their acquaintances to look elsewhere. Same is true for Greeks, Italians, Spaniards and Portuguese. Many younger people go South to Latin America to find work. Retirees flock to the Mediterranean.

I dare say European demographics are going to be drastically changed within less than a decade. Perhaps governments should read a study I once found on the Internet by some Swedish professors on the costs of emigration to a country... and where lies the pivotal point of more taxation vs. the income lost by having emigrants fleeing their home country to escape punitive taxes. But then, whoever would believe governments would even have the mere idea to read such University studies since that would eat on their alloted time to gain more voters....


----------



## donovan

I am not sure I will be of any help, having lived in both counties over the last 30 years I personally prefer Portugal, the people are friendlier, many speak enough English to be understood, Algarve weather is good but ended up in Madeira which for me is the best, not the cheapest but less crime, nice people, pretty good health service, weather is more stable not over bearing in the summer, I found the bureaucracy not so bad and once its on the move its great. They handled all my pension from the UK and my Portuguese pension which arrived at the right time, building permissions, company costs, general health care etc., etc.,


----------



## dhream

Titania,
I really like your honesty, courage, and faith, and wish you all the luck and happiness you deserve, also thanks for your post, it is a great help to me at the moment, feeling rootless, and apprehensive about a big move ahead that I must make, no choice in the matter.

Well there is always choice, but to not move would be akin to just giving up and going hobo. So for me, it is now just a question of 'where to?'


----------



## titania

dhream said:


> Titania,
> I really like your honesty, courage, and faith, and wish you all the luck and happiness you deserve, also thanks for your post, it is a great help to me at the moment, feeling rootless, and apprehensive about a big move ahead that I must make, no choice in the matter.
> 
> Well there is always choice, but to not move would be akin to just giving up and going hobo. So for me, it is now just a question of 'where to?'


Donovan, thanks for your opinion.

Dhream, thank you too for yours. I don't know how old you are, but it's easier said for me than done for you. I'm European, Europe is small with plenty of countries to choose to go and come back if hell breaks loose. You are coming from Australia, that's a long long way away and more difficult to return to in case of problems.

I can understand it's not an easy decision; in my youth, not only did I refuse to emigrate to French Guyana - even sponsored by the Government, but I also refused two jobs in the US precisely because it was geographically so far and that scared me with my young family. But then that was over 30 years ago, when transport was more complicated, family links would have been severed much more than now with modern communications, social safety nets were barely existant.

It was easier within Europe. The first time, I'd had barely time to lose my puffy baby cheeks - I was that young - I "expated" myself, coming from France, landing in UK with a suitcase, no roof, no job, a cold winter afternoon, with a mere £100 in my pocket, absolutely determined to survive on my own so that I would never have to go back to my family. And I did but was lucky I already spoke the language.

I "re-expated" myself back to France with a husband in tow, 2 suitcases, no roof no jobs for either of us, another cold winter afternoon.

And again, to UK, with no husband, but with a child, with a car full of my most precious things, no roof no job, again in winter...

And again to France, this time with part of the family left in UK, but with a job contract in hand, no roof, and then found myself building another family in France.

Now, I'm alone again, discharged all my family duties, and I want to go to Portugal or Spain, but it will be in much better circumstances than in all the other times above. So I am no stranger to moving and can well understand the drawbacks of expatriating oneself.

It takes courage, undying faith in yourself to overcome what may be thrown at you, and much hard work, self-sufficiency skills, not too bad a health, and a willingness to speak another language all the time. The biggest hurdle is loneliness when you arrive, it can take up to four years to establish a really good supportive social circle. 

If you are young, pay attention to your old age contributions to an old-age pension. The way I did it, I lost 20 years of what could have been 40 years of useful contributions, having been outside any State-sponsored nets for most of my travels. Luckily, the last 20 years I contributed to a generous occupational pension scheme.

If you are older, then I guess you have to calculate where your pension will be the most beneficial for you, as well as the local circumstances to suit you.

Still, Australia to Europe is a long trip. I wish you well and hope you find your way in the best manner possible


----------



## dhream

Titania,

I am already here! (I am in the UK at present) I know this is a public forum, but what the hell, I'm here for help, and the more people know, the more they can offer -in that sense. So here is my story...

I am Scots born, my parents migrated to Africa when I was about three, long story short, they returned to the UK about the time I finished school and Rhodesia became Zimbabwe, we all know how that ended, most sadly of all, for the 'liberated' locals.

I came to London in 1980, prospered, but left in 1984 to see more of the world, a semi in Surbiton held little appeal, and still less now!

I sailed the Caribbean, Bahamas, Newport RI, all the while getting paid under the table to sail rich peoples boats  I arrived in Newport RI from the Caribbean, with a phone number (which I turned into three nights free B&B) and $100, yes, one makes ones own luck!

I had the time of my life, at that time, but even then, I knew a backpack and a tan were not going to get me through all of my life, so I decided to return to the UK, but only for long enough to get a working holiday visa for Australia.

I then went to Sydney (and wish I'd gone to Melbourne instead, it is a far better city IMHO) again like yourself, arriving, with a lot of self belief and little money or even an hotel booking. As usual, it all worked out, funny how it always does when you take a chance, but are also willing to do what it takes to make it work!

I had the predictable tussle with the Australian Government at the end of my visa, and left just ahead of getting thrown out! I bought a ticket to LA, with a stopover in New Zealand, I decided to stay in NZ for as long as I could, and work at getting back to Australia by hook or by crook. I was not happy in beautiful NZ mainly because I was there by compulsion.

But it changed the course of my life forever... the opportunities there at the time were unheard of! To cut a long post short, I returned to Sydney in triumph two years later in 1988 having had a job in the TVNZ newsroom, a job at Radio Hauraki as a copywriter, a New Zealand passport, and a wife! (imagine a 'colonial' backpacker getting a job at the BCC -even back then!)

I then snared a prestigious copywriting job at a smart global agency in Sydney -and promptly had a nervous breakdown -and a shortly thereafter a divorce (of my own doing).

I decided to simplify my life and took a humble clerical position at the telephone company (the only one back then) while I 'found' myself. That process took nearly seven years, and by the time that quest ended, I was on my way back up the corporate ladder as the internet appeared in earnest.

Realising my cubicle was becoming a mausoleum for the living dead, I did what no sensible person would do and applied for a job with a certain famous Aussie airline as cabin crew at the ripe old age of 39.
I have spent the years from then until now flying the world and 'living the life'. 

I cared little for the property craze in Australia, and invested in shares and metals. My shares have been wiped out, and my metals are not doing great, but I believe I will have the last laugh with metals when fiat currencies finally collapse worldwide (don't scoff, we all thought the giants of Wall Street, Japan, and the Euro were indestructible too, not long ago).

I left when flying stopped being fun, and my hearing started to decline as well (I now have hearing devices, but they don't help in a noisy jet!) I took a voluntary redundancy package, and have managed to make this grow a little by eke'ing out a living online, it is hard to do, but I will get to where I want to be.

Having no reason to stay in Sydney with prices in Australia really beginning to get ugly, I moved to Singapore for romance last year, barely researching the place. My 'chancer' luck had finally run out (or maybe my angels were looking out for me all along) but that did not work out in more ways than one. There were just insurmountable obstacles, and the cost of everything except food is horrendous (yet you never hear about it, only how bad it is in Hong Kong!) meanwhile up in Scotland, in November, family tragedy relating to my last surviving close family had struck, so I just freighted all my possessions up here, to sort out the mess, which I have nearly done, and now... 

Here I am, not wanting to return to Australia or New Zealand, and with a hunger for the lifestyle and culture of Europe (I have three passports AU NZ EU) some modest assets to keep me afloat for a few years assuming zero income at all, a pension plan in Australia which at worst, I can access in four years time, and my last Grand Epoch awaits... 

Yes Portuguese will be a challenge, but I also have the internet to live off, and I am a 'young' 52 with low body-fat and sound health 'Dieu Merci'. So as Branson says 'Screw it, let's do it!' (It's not like I have many other very appealing choices anyway).

PS: Have you had a closer look at Coimbra in Central Portugal, one of your posters recommended it, and I looked at it and it seems to be very appealing. It is PT's premier University city, that in itself should tell you volumes. I think the same poster also pointed out crime is a problem in Lisbon and the Algarve. I survived Sydney -and all my wanderings- with just two burglaries both in Sydney, for me that's two too many but 'crime' can be very subjective and emotive.

I have been very fortunate to live in communities where the Police station was shut down due to lack of business! So crime or lack of it, for me is a BIG factor.


----------



## jsmoir

titania said:


> Depardieu is the visible tip of the iceberg... French youth is leaving the ship in droves, middle managers also, and so are many retirees. Many more who find they can't move push their acquaintances to look elsewhere. Same is true for Greeks, Italians, Spaniards and Portuguese. Many younger people go South to Latin America to find work. Retirees flock to the Mediterranean.
> 
> I dare say European demographics are going to be drastically changed within less than a decade. Perhaps governments should read a study I once found on the Internet by some Swedish professors on the costs of emigration to a country... and where lies the pivotal point of more taxation vs. the income lost by having emigrants fleeing their home country to escape punitive taxes. But then, whoever would believe governments would even have the mere idea to read such University studies since that would eat on their alloted time to gain more voters....


Do you have a link to that article? I'd like to read it.
Thanks,

:clap2:


----------



## titania

jsmoir said:


> Do you have a link to that article? I'd like to read it.
> Thanks,
> 
> :clap2:


Hi, I've got that article somewhere saved on another computer back home, but I can't get to it until month end as.... I am now here :clap2: in Portugal. Arrived in Faro on Saturday and will let everyone know how I like it (or not) in a few days' time.


----------



## titania

Did a quick Google search, just in case I could remember exactly which one it is, but I can't be sure. The following links may be helpful until I return home and fish out the article from the unfathomable depths of my other computer  - Look up all the references in these articles as they may contain what you are looking for.

- this one, I think, is the one I was talking about: http://ucfs.nek.uu.se/digitalAssets/129/129504_wp20098.pdf

Other references:

- http://ucfs.nek.uu.se/digitalAssets/129/129502_wp20099.pdf
- http://www.anst.uu.se/lausi105/cariboost_files/nonlinear_20tax.pdf
- http://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Publication%20Files/09-013.pdf
- http://www.scb.se/statistik/HE/LE1900/_dokument/Fiscal%20implications%20of%20emigration.pdf
- http://www.iies.su.se/polopoly_fs/1.131831.1366033092!/menu/standard/file/tax%20me%20if%20you%20can.pdf


----------



## jsmoir

*Beyond the call of duty!*



titania said:


> Did a quick Google search, just in case I could remember exactly which one it is, but I can't be sure. The following links may be helpful until I return home and fish out the article from the unfathomable depths of my other computer  - Look up all the references in these articles as they may contain what you are looking for.
> 
> - this one, I think, is the one I was talking about: http://ucfs.nek.uu.se/digitalAssets/129/129504_wp20098.pdf
> 
> Other references:
> 
> - http://ucfs.nek.uu.se/digitalAssets/129/129502_wp20099.pdf
> - http://www.anst.uu.se/lausi105/cariboost_files/nonlinear_20tax.pdf
> - http://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Publication%20Files/09-013.pdf
> - http://www.scb.se/statistik/HE/LE1900/_dokument/Fiscal%20implications%20of%20emigration.pdf
> - http://www.iies.su.se/polopoly_fs/1.131831.1366033092!/menu/standard/file/tax%20me%20if%20you%20can.pdf



You didn't need to go to such lengths on my account! But thanks, nevertheless.

I am content to wait until you can find it easily, without having to hunt (or travel great distances!) to find it.

Pax.


----------



## titania

Hi everybody,

I'm just back from my first short exploring trip to Portugal. I shortened it by 4 days...

Not wanting to disappoint all the Portugal fans, but... I guess Portugal will only come 2nd or 3rd on my list of potential retirement places unless I can figure out if Portugal would really be fiscal-friendly. Met with 3 fiscal advisors (from large international firms), got 3 different opinions...

I visited the Algarve, complete from East to West, with an incursion into Spain right down to Huelva, then Lisbon and surroundings, went up further north to Nazaré. Of course, did the normal sightseeing places, lovely museums, churches and castles. And also wandered in the various non-posh areas, high-rise buildings, dilapidated areas of big towns, suburbs and country villages. I also did thorough tours of various supermarkets, diy shops, Chinese Mega shops, etc. Drove 2'500 kms in 15 days.

*I was stunned by the prices* - Portugal is very expensive for common goods and foods, some items as expensive as where I live in France, others a little less, but not that much less. Which means, for me, that if I think my pension will not be enough where I live now in France, it will take a good fiscal deal to make Portugal financially attractive for me. Considering the minimum Portuguese salary is about 1/3rd of the French minimum, I don't know how the Portuguese people can live, particularly the ones in cities who cannot grow vegetables or fruit, or raise hens or rabbits, in a garden.

This country, I fear, is in dire straits, more so than Spain. I found Spain cheaper for almost everything, even on the Costa del Sol, even in full tourist season in August last year. Some day or other, I fear the Portuguese people will revolt if nothing is done to alleviate their plight. There's a total disconnect between the powers that be and the way the people suffer.

*So, what I didn't like:
*
My first impression was that I had rewound time back to the 1970s in northern Italy when I arrived in Loulé, near Faro.

Main streets are composed of: 1, dental centre, 1 shoe shop, 1 lingerie shop, 1 closed shop, 1 haberdashery, 1 insurance office, 1 beer bar (? "brasserie"), 1 bank, 1 clothes shop, 1 ironmonger, 1 funeral shop, 1 paints and varnishes shop, 1 pharmacy, 1 chinese shop, 1 haridresser, 1 corner small supermarket, start again the list on the same street, and the same across the road and neighbouring centre roads. So you'd have 5 or 6 paints and varnishes shop in the centre, same for lingerie or shoes. The lot intersped with closed shops and cafés.

Most average sized towns exactly the same.

I had trouble feeding myself - could not find a decent place opened for a decent meal at a decent price. First meal in Faro, after going around the town several times, ended up being expensive - but of course I chose expensive dishes - clams to start, main course fish, desert, 2 beers = 34.50 Euros, but it was my first meal, so I didn't mind.

Other meals were rarely less than 18-20 Euros. That's starter, main dish, desert or coffee, glass of wine or beer.

Makro cafeteria - bife de vaca (some small thin steak), potatoes, rice, mixed salad, coke and coffee 9.99 Euros.

Cheapest but not good, 5.85 Euros at Intermarché cafeteria. Fish, veg and chips, sweet, coffee.

The only time when I had a cheap AND good local meal was in some tourist town in the back streets, 8 Euros, fish with potatoes and rice, rice pudding, bread, beer, coffee.

Another was at an Indian restaurant in Loulé, excellent, so much food that I requested they packed what I left, 19.50 Euros, but there was enough for 2 meals.

All or most of the food swimming in oil/grease, overcooked and unsavoury, little vegetables.

Faro/Olhao, Portimao - look like war zones. If it weren't for the fact that buildings don't have bullet holes, some areas look like Beirut. Buildings are falling to pieces, pavements pavings are damaged or missing - can't wear high-heeled shoes anywhere that's for sure, shops and restaurants are closed, misery is blatant. The few shops opened are mostly empty and expensive, so are the very few restaurants. 

Lisbon - barely better. Of course the buildings in the centre have been looked after, more or less. However, the moment you stray from main avenues, you start seeing houses and buildings that have not been cared for for some years. Here again, shops and restaurants are closed, for sale or for rent.

Lagos - was OK. If I did go anywhere in Portugal to settle, I'd visit there first.

Vila Real de San Antonio - OK.

Albufeira / Estoril / Cascais = tourist traps in recession.

Almancil - very strange. It's in two parts:

(1) a little normal town with downtrodden buildings next to middle-class nice houses, thrivy shops intersped with closed shops. Just a normal little near costal town in recession in mid-season.

And then (2), its real coast Quinta do Lago with luxury mansions - 2 to 3 or 4 or more millions euros houses, golf course, commercial centre for über-rich retirees, lousy lake and sea shore, miles of paved pavements along beautiful avenues, where the rich retirees walk, and walk, and walk.

If there is a normal sandy beach on a seafront for commoners like me, I did not find it in Almancil.

Praia da Luz - went around there just to soak up the atmosphere re: Maddy McCann. If you are a "feeler" like me, don't go there, it has nefarious vibes. I didn't like it despite nice houses and urbanisations. Felt an urge to get out fast from there.

Portimao - do not get lost by car in the centre, the streets were barely wide enough for my Clio - a few centimeters each side of my mirrors...

*Shopping centres/Commercial Zones:
*
Not where you'd expect them to be like in France, Spain, Italy, UK or Switzerland, like on main roads leading out from main towns, difficult to find, badly signposted, not with the shops you'd expect either, nor with parking facilities you'd expect.

*Roads*

- secondary and town roads are full of hazards, pot holes, pavings. But see below for main roads.

*Beggars*. Even insistant beggars in tourist towns and Lisbon.

*Homeless *people sleeping in streets in Lisbon - how sad - reminded me of UK in the 1990s.

*Ordinary shopping
*
Lidl, Aldi, Apolonia, Continente, Intermarché, Leclerc, Pingo Doce, etc.

_For those prices I remember:
_
- tomatoes, any type, 1.99 euros / kg
- strawberries (from Portugal) - 2 - 4 euros / kg
- apples, any type, 1.39 - 1.59 euros / kg
- chicken, meat and fish about 1/2 price to France.
- bacalhau from Norway, best pieces 8 euros per kg. Shrimps/Prawns, any size, 10-20% cheaper than in France, so still expensive for the Portuguese.

_- From photographs I took in Lidl - I got stopped from doing this by the manager  and I'll have to check the prices with my local Lidl in France to see if more or less expensive for the same items, because much of these goods I never buy
_
-- M&Ms, 250 g, 3.49 euros.
-- AfterEight, 200 g, 1.84 euros
-- Strawberry or Peaches or Oranges jam, 450 g, 1.69 euros
-- Cherries jam, 450 g, 1.79 euros
-- Packaged salades from 1.29 to 1.99 euros
-- Fresh Paris mushrooms, 250 g, 1.49 euros
-- Kiwi, per kg, 1.79 euros
-- Oranges, 1 kg, 0.99 euros
-- Nesperas (loqats?), 1 kg, 1.69 euros (on sale)
-- Frozen shrimps, 800 g - anything from 7.59 to 13.98 euros
-- Actimel, pack of 6, 2.99 euros
-- Milk, 1 lt, 1.5% fat, 0.59 euros, 0.3% fat, 0.65 euros
-- Kitchen rolls, 4x64, 1.79 euros, 4x51 3-ply, 1.99 euros
-- Toilet paper, recycled, can't read the quantity on photo, prices from 1.59 to 1.99 euros.

- _clothing_:
-- ladies underwear vest 8.99 euros (Lidl) - found that expensive for Portugal.
-- bras, upward from 12 euros - that's expensive
-- t-shirt, on sale (Continente) - 4.99 euros - that's a lot!!!
-- trousers (Continente) - low quality, cotton, 17.99 euros. Jeans, first cheapest price around 14 euros, standard around 20-22 euros. All without famous branding of course.
-- straight, non fancy, ladies jacket - 39.99 euros (Continente) - that is expensive.
-- ladies pants, standard boxer, cheapest 4 euros a piece (Continente) - that is also expensive.

- _toiletries_:
-- nail brush (small) 2 euros (Jumbo) - expensive for Portugal
-- 100g of cotton wool 0.49 euros (Lidl) - I'll have to check here, seems slightly cheaper in Portugal.
-- cotton swabs big box 200, 0.49 euros (Lidl) - I'll have to check here, seems slightly more expensive in Portugal.
-- Pantene shampoo 4.29 euros (Lidl) - again, have to check here.

- _Diesel_: BP in Loulé 1.359 / l

- _Ferry _crossing into Spain, one way, one car one person, 5 euros.

- _Hotels_:

-- Cheaper than in France for the lower range 2*, but same prices as in France for 3* and 4*. You can occasionally get good deals in the latter price range with boo...ing dot com - which I did.

-- And you don't know what you pay for even in the better range - I bought chlorine (for the mould on the joints) and polish (for the taps) for one hotel I was in -- Mind you the rest was perfect and I would go again to this hotel.

-- Don't think the prestige and good quality of one hotel brand in one country is the same in another country - I got had at the ¨*%+?!*&% (censored by me, send pm if you want the details) in Lisbon, will never go to this hotel again, the beds and shower were filthy and food horrid.


............. continued in next post


----------



## titania

......................continued from previous post


*So, what did I like?????*

People seemed genuinely nice, with a sense of service. One can get by with English, French or Spanish for the basic necessities.

Traffic wardens are not in any hurry to give parking tickets in Lisbon or at Lisbon airport.

No trouble parking in towns, there's always a parking space. Parking meters are not expensive compared to France, but would be for Portuguese people. Airport parking is not cheap though.

Fluid traffic everywhere. The little traffic congestions at rush hour in Lisbon are really nothing compared to France, Spain, UK or Switzerland.

Exceedingly safe driving, courteous driving, patience with lost tourists like me (only got honked twice in Lisbon). Only saw very few mad speeding drivers, of which 2 where probably gofasts. Empty motorways. Good main roads. Splendid bridges in Lisbon.

Felt safe in most areas, except one in Lisbon in the vicinity of the ¨*%+?!*&% (censored by me, send pm if you want the details) near the airport. By the way, don't ever stay there, my one night there was a nightmare.

No bars on windows like Spain. There must be petty crime, but it does not look like rampant like in Spain.

Metro in Lisbon is deserted, it looks like only tourists use it, except Saturday nights when the local girls go partying downtown  - one trip 1.20 euros.

Benfica - no riots when they lost against Chelsea 

Coffee, natas and pastries, beer - all cheap (the only things I found cheap). Coffee is nice and weak, it did not stop me from sleeping at night.

Cigarettes, Benson & Hedges, 4.50 euros - that's cheap.

*In conclusion
*

I shortened my trip because I could not see any benefit in spending any more money there where I would spend less by being at home for my remaining holidays, doing things I like or useful other endeavours. The weather was not even to be enjoyed as it started raining last Friday and the temperature dropped.

Portugal is probably not the place where I would want to retire to. Could be OK for a few months' rest until I feel the urge for a more busy life, probably in Spain.


----------



## canoeman

Algarve is not representative of Portugal, and needs to be viewed in a slightly different way, standard dish of the day in most of the rest of Portugal 6€ including drink, dessert extra


----------



## travelling-man

canoeman said:


> Algarve is not representative of Portugal, and needs to be viewed in a slightly different way, standard dish of the day in most of the rest of Portugal 6€ including drink, dessert extra


I'll second that. Here in the central zone, you'll get something like soup, duck & veggies, a pudding and more or less unlimited wine plus pre meal picky things for less than E10 without any problems at all.


----------



## titania

Thank you both 

I didn't just stay in Algarve though. And north of Lisbon, didn't just stay on the coast either. Still, didn't find a full menu for 6 euros anywhere. The cheapest decent was 8 euros (except the Intermarché cafeteria, as I said, 5.85). Central Portugal would probably be too cold for me anyway.


----------



## oronero

*Titania,* thankyou for your brutally honest observations, it is good to read the perceptions of somebody who is trying to assess the vibe of a place without bias.

I can understand where you are coming from, however your description of certain areas within Portugal appearing to be like 1970's Northern Italy must mean Northern Italy was really ahead of the time. I recall 1970's Portugal as a child and can remember vividly that the place was how I imagined a third world country would be...perhaps Portugal was back then. 

I think that you may well be shocked at the state of the UK especially outside of the smart areas of our cities, whenever I visit the Sintra region of Portugal and central Lisbon I am generally impressed as to how much better it is than the UK. perhaps it is just the change of scenery that is playing with my 'well-being' factor...I know where I would rather be and sadly it is not the UK!

I grew up in the West London region and in the last 15 years have lived in various regions throughout the UK, Berkshire, Essex, Middlesex, Norfolk, Suffolk and West Yorkshire, spending a minimum of 18 months in each, so I feel that my observations are valid. I see most people struggling to manage in the UK, especially since 2009 and it seems to be getting much worse.

The UK is heading in a downward spiral, though if you have a reasonably well paid job, earning in excess of £40,000, you can possibly have a reasonable existence outside of London but you will need more if you are located within London, however there are not that many that earn that sort of money...just my opinion.


----------



## Sonho

I don't disagree with anything you have written about Portugal. What saves it for me is the people, the weather and the beaches.


----------



## anapedrosa

Good thing I think to get a feel of a place before making a decision. I wouldn't imagine that any country suites everyone. I am surprised by the cost of the meals, my experience has been that the cost of eating are less than you are mentioning. Generally a good 3 course meal with wine has run me between €7 (plate of the day) to €11.

I also think you have to like the feel of a place, it needs to suit you, and it's apparent that Portugal did not pull you. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Best wishes in finding a place that suits your heart and budget.


----------



## titania

re: cost of meals.

It may be that I was in the wrong areas to find meals as cheap as 7-11 euros. I did make a deliberate effort to find these cheap places but to no avail.

Even a Margarita pizza outside the centre of Loulé was 10 euros (on its own, nothing with it). With the cost of tomatoes at 1.99 a kg, oil 2.49 euros a litre, coffee 0.70 and a glass of beer 1.0 euro, and other items barely cheaper than in France, it is to be wondered how a restaurant can offer a good 3-meal course for 7 euros. So it maybe I was in the wrong places...

re: UK now vs. Sintra (@Oronero) - Well, I don't know about Sintra vs. the UK now. I was in London just after the riots sometime 2-3 years ago was it? At that time, I certainly saw a change for the worst compared to the years I lived in the UK. Saying that though, the most desolate UK periods I have known were the 1970s - Harold Wilson and the oil crisis, double-digits inflation and IMF loan, and the 1990s - doubling of the interest rates. I lived in Devon, Kent, Wales, Yorkshire, West Midlands and London, moving about a lot with little money. It's for certain that UK is, and has always been expensive. 40K£ is probably barely enough. My son has more, but being in London, it's only just serious enough for a young 35 yo lad.

Northern Italy in the 1970s vs. Portugal in the 1970s / developing vs. undeveloped. @Oronero, you may be right on the dot  - In fact, so far as I recall, Portugal was then considered as the poorest country in Europe. That is why so many Portuguese came to France to work and now don't feel like going back to Portugal to retire except for short stretches for holidays in the house they built with savings from the French franc .

Another point I was unaware of, but glaring when in Portugal. Portugal is decidedly turned towards doing business with its ex-colonies, Mozambique and Angola, and Brazil. I was surprised at the amount of offers, possibly government sponsorship if I understood correctly, for youngsters to go and create enterprises in these countries. At the airport, waiting for my friend, there was hardly an hour without a plane coming in from Brazil, or going there, and not just the big cities, but also lesser known ones. Much publicity for the Bank of Brazil and for investments in Angola.

This tendency would seem to me an original move among other European countries with ex-colonies - I have not seen this outward movement in UK, France, Italy, Belgium or even Spain. Is Portugal trying to revive the Conquistador spirit? Because beyond this, the people appear broken, sad, lethargic and resigned. Not the splendour and aggressive conquering spirits of the XVIth century.

Anway, as I said, unless I can clear my exact fiscal situation there and find a rather important financial advantage, I might well settle for Spain.


----------



## canoeman

You'll find the real Spain in far more turmoil and financial hardship than Portugal just hidden more below the surface, yes it is policy to encourage emigration, unfortunate as Portugal will suffer in the long run as its younger and brighter talent chase opportunity that isn't here at the moment, I've yet to meet any broken, sad, lethargic and resigned Portuguese quite the opposite


----------



## titania

canoeman said:


> You'll find the real Spain in far more turmoil and financial hardship than Portugal just hidden more below the surface, yes it is policy to encourage emigration, unfortunate as Portugal will suffer in the long run as its younger and brighter talent chase opportunity that isn't here at the moment, I've yet to meet any broken, sad, lethargic and resigned Portuguese quite the opposite


Canoeman, thank you for your views which I have had much reason to appreciate all along this thread.

I must have met different people since I was travelling and you are a resident. Still, the looks and small talk exchanged at supermarket tills, in little cafés and restaurants, seemed subdued and not lively... even on the eve of the Benfica/Chelsea match 

I'll keep a watchful eye in Spain when I go there next, although my impression was the reverse to yours.

I saw no beggars in Spain last year, nor did I see people sleeping on pavements. They may hide in places where they are not seen, it's possible. I'm aware of the wave of suicides of the repossessed owners, however the Spanish government has acted on this. When I crossed from Portugal into Spain, I went right through to Huelva, stopped at shops too, and did not find the disenchantment on people's faces. There's more energy, more upbeat, more life. The difference n atmosphere was quite apparent. But, as you say, maybe it is just a surface impression. I'll wait for my next longer trip to Spain to have a more definite opinion.

I know the official figures for unemployment are lower in Portugal than in Spain (File:Unemployment rates, seasonally adjusted, March 2013.png - Statistics Explained), but the minimum wage in Spain is higher than in Portugal (List of sovereign states in Europe by minimum wage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). The prices that I was monitoring for future daily living seemed rather cheaper in Spain than in Portugal. The net result may be even or better for Spaniards.

It also seems that even though both governments are fighting tax evasion and black market tactics, it looks easier to do so in Spain than in Portugal - not that I condone the black economy, but when you're out of a job, a quick tenner for mowing the lawn of a neighbour, babysitting, or cleaning jobs, or a fifty for painting a kitchen or laying a few bricks keeps the soup coming for the kids.

In times of financial pressure, it's all good and well for governments to try and catch any money they can, but the little people won't get much public help even if taxes are upped. In this context, it may be recalled that Italy got out of poverty thanks to its black economy some 20-30 years ago, from the late 1960s to the late 1980s. Of course, Italy is also having serious crisis problems now but they are not stemming from this black economy.


----------



## canoeman

Maybe your taking the Portuguese pragmatic and outward public show in the wrong way, very different when you get to know them , Portugal's at the end of the supply chain so prices are slightly higher but then also lower on lots of things.

Spain, Portugal and other southern EU countries have all suffered because of black economy or tax evasion its why some taxes are high like ISV where it can't be evaded and why there's a concerted effort to reduce the black economy to acceptable levels, Spain's introducing measures that will directly effect expats which are unlikely to happen here because of a couple of tax and residence schemes to actively attract high earners too Portugal.

Overall for me the benefits of Portugal plus some of the hidden ones being Law of Succession, healthcare, safety in property purchase far outweigh Spain or France


----------



## redbourn

Spain is now the most antisemitic country in Europe and the antisemitism in Portugal is near to zero.

Spain: The "Most Anti-Semitic Country in Europe" :: Gatestone Institute

Portugal - Manifestations of Anti-Semitism in the European Union

I looked at Spain and decided on Portugal because of the above.

I worked in Israel for several years and had no intention of hiding where I'd worked.

Zapatero is mostly responsible for this and not the Spanish people who mostly only speak Spanish and were fed his antisemitism for eight years. He blamed the Jews for Spain's economy.

Spain's new president Mariano Rajoy seems a lot better.

Regardless of being Jewish or not, the decision was easy for me.

Michael


----------



## titania

Thank you Canoeman and Redbourn for your opinion. I understand your position. Of course, I don't condone the black economy, but in any country there is a need for a little as a safety net for the poorest forgotten by any administrative measure. Once this disappears, you have revolution the 1789 French style. In addition, I don't really believe economies have been ruined by the black economy I describe. It's likely been ruined by the large scale tax evasion of multicorporate entities (business and banking). On this train of thought, I happened by chance to surf across websites talking about economic cycles. One that caught my eye was the Kondratieff wave. You may want to read it -- essentially, it's a world cycle, irrespective of the illegal tenner the unemployed earns by mowing his neighbour's lawn. Reference here.

Regardless, I'll try to get more fiscal information before I definitely cross Portugal off my list, and also plan another Spanish trip as soon as I can.


----------



## oronero

*Titania*, fair play to you for still keeping Portugal potentially in your running, despite a negative first impression!

One thing I have noticed by scouring this site and comparing the Spanish and Portuguese threads...Spain certainly seems to attract more people who desire settling there and have not read up on even the current financial and social situation than Portugal does. Spain appears to be the more desirable place for the less prepared dreamers.

Of importance on the Spanish threads is talk of the Catalan population wishing to break-away from the control of Madrid, how much longer until the Basque region does the same? Spain appears to be facing some internal power struggles, very similar to what the UK is currently facing. The Scottish population are being given a vote in 2014 to decide whether to break away from the rest of the UK...at least Portugal is unified in this respect. This splitting of unified a nation can cause all sorts of financial instability for both parties subject to this, saying nothing of the social implications.

Having family living in Portugal makes the decision easy for me, and when you start looking at things such as running a business in Portugal compared to the UK, there really is very little in difference between taxation of the two countries, though the UK is cheaper. 

Moving to Portugal will cost me an additional 7% in taxation, however whilst running a business in the UK during the last three years I have been unable to work for approximately 6 months due to the winter weather. Being able to work for the full year in Portugal will allow my income to increase by over 20%, which means that I will be in no worse financial position than I would be in the UK, but with the bonus of at least a reasonable summer and milder winters!

With regards to the black economy...where there's a will there's a way!


----------



## redbourn

oronero said:


> *Titania*, fair play to you for still keeping Portugal potentially in your running, despite a negative first impression!
> 
> One thing I have noticed by scouring this site and comparing the Spanish and Portuguese threads...Spain certainly seems to attract more people who desire settling there and have not read up on even the current financial and social situation than Portugal does. Spain appears to be the more desirable place for the less prepared dreamers.
> 
> Of importance on the Spanish threads is talk of the Catalan population wishing to break-away from the control of Madrid, how much longer until the Basque region does the same? Spain appears to be facing some internal power struggles, very similar to what the UK is currently facing. The Scottish population are being given a vote in 2014 to decide whether to break away from the rest of the UK...at least Portugal is unified in this respect. This splitting of unified a nation can cause all sorts of financial instability for both parties subject to this, saying nothing of the social implications.
> 
> Having family living in Portugal makes the decision easy for me, and when you start looking at things such as running a business in Portugal compared to the UK, there really is very little in difference between taxation of the two countries, though the UK is cheaper.
> 
> Moving to Portugal will cost me an additional 7% in taxation, however whilst running a business in the UK during the last three years I have been unable to work for approximately 6 months due to the winter weather. Being able to work for the full year in Portugal will allow my income to increase by over 20%, which means that I will be in no worse financial position than I would be in the UK, but with the bonus of at least a reasonable summer and milder winters!
> 
> With regards to the black economy...where there's a will there's a way!


Just a side note. I have family that thought of buying a home near Alicante and decided against it. There is a large number of Brits that whoop it up and don't bother to learn a word of Spanish which doesn't go down well with the locals.

And many Brits are apparently returning from that general area because of the "have and have not" issue. I looked at the north west because of that, which is what caused me to decide on Portugal.

I am NO expert on this .... 

Michael


----------

