# Running a swimming pool



## tasty12 (Jan 16, 2016)

Just a quick question.
I have put a swimming pool in my garden and wondered if it was necessary to run the swimming pool pump and filter all day and night, or if I can just put it on during the day or when we are going to use it.
I do not have an heating system as of yet but was hoping to not have to run it constantly if not necessary
many thanks


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

tasty12 said:


> Just a quick question.
> I have put a swimming pool in my garden and wondered if it was necessary to run the swimming pool pump and filter all day and night, or if I can just put it on during the day or when we are going to use it.
> I do not have an heating system as of yet but was hoping to not have to run it constantly if not necessary
> many thanks


You certainly don't run the pump all day and all night unless you have money to waste 

You need to know the volume of water and the size of pump to work it out accurately - you need to have the pump on long enough to circulate the entire volume.

By experience, we have ours on for 2 hours in the very early hours and then another 2 hours in the evening. If the pool is getting a LOT of use, then maybe a little longer.


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## tasty12 (Jan 16, 2016)

Thank you
No I do not have money to waste, glad to hear that I will work it out eventually and go by the water quality in the short term
Very kind of you to reply


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

My pool is 10x5m, roughly 75m3, and doesn't get a lot of use. I have a timer that has 30-minute increments. I have it come on twice a day in the winter (total 1 hour) and 4-6 times in the summer (2-3 hours), mainly to clear dust and bugs off the surface as well as adding chemicals. In this way the water stays cleaner for longer as there is less detritus falling to the bottom. I use 5-in-1 blocks in the skimmer baskets and check the chlorine and pH regularly.


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## tasty12 (Jan 16, 2016)

Very interesting about the same size pool
greatly appreciate information


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## el romeral (May 8, 2012)

Madliz said:


> My pool is 10x5m, roughly 75m3, and doesn't get a lot of use. I have a timer that has 30-minute increments. I have it come on twice a day in the winter (total 1 hour) and 4-6 times in the summer (2-3 hours), mainly to clear dust and bugs off the surface as well as adding chemicals. In this way the water stays cleaner for longer as there is less detritus falling to the bottom. I use 5-in-1 blocks in the skimmer baskets and check the chlorine and pH regularly.


This is very similar to what I have, same size but 90m3. When the pool is being used by people, I overide the timer and have the skimmers on all the time (skimmers to manual! lol). Also when very windy I sometimes do the same due to all the debris blowing around - catch it before it sinks.
One thing I recently found was that the chlorine blocks in the skimmers caused the plastic to deteriorate and a leak appeared (this was over the course of about 16 years mind you) I was able to silicone it, so no big problem. Since then, I have been putting the chlorine blocks in a floating dispenser to save the plastic in the skimmers. When in use, I will transfer the chlorine back to the skimmers during these times.

Much nicer to keep the pool filled and clean throughout the year. Some locals who live nearby stop the skimmers and chlorine after the summer and the pool reverts to a green swamp complete with frogs and all kinds of wildlife. Always seems a lot of work in the spring getting it useable again.


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## tasty12 (Jan 16, 2016)

Thank you
Don't fancy the frogs lol


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

el romeral said:


> This is very similar to what I have, same size but 90m3. When the pool is being used by people, I overide the timer and have the skimmers on all the time (skimmers to manual! lol). Also when very windy I sometimes do the same due to all the debris blowing around - catch it before it sinks.
> One thing I recently found was that the chlorine blocks in the skimmers caused the plastic to deteriorate and a leak appeared (this was over the course of about 16 years mind you) I was able to silicone it, so no big problem. Since then, I have been putting the chlorine blocks in a floating dispenser to save the plastic in the skimmers. When in use, I will transfer the chlorine back to the skimmers during these times.
> 
> Much nicer to keep the pool filled and clean throughout the year. Some locals who live nearby stop the skimmers and chlorine after the summer and the pool reverts to a green swamp complete with frogs and all kinds of wildlife. Always seems a lot of work in the spring getting it useable again.


I totally agree. There are times of year when windy days deluge the pool with pollen, or fluff from poplar trees, or autumn leaves, and I leave the skimmers running.

Since my kitchen window looks over lawn and pool, it's much nicer to see a blue, clean pool all year round, rather than a green pool or a cover with a muddy puddle on top. 

Interesting comment about the blocks in the basket. My baskets crack every few years and I replace them, but I've just had the pipe from pump to return jets replaced after a leak. It was over 20 years old, though, so I guess these things happen. 

I guess in Málaga you don't have the other problem I have, of occasional winters with wall-to-wall ice! I keep a plastic football at hand for such times, to try and take the pressure off the tiles.


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## el romeral (May 8, 2012)

Madliz said:


> I totally agree. There are times of year when windy days deluge the pool with pollen, or fluff from poplar trees, or autumn leaves, and I leave the skimmers running.
> 
> Since my kitchen window looks over lawn and pool, it's much nicer to see a blue, clean pool all year round, rather than a green pool or a cover with a muddy puddle on top.
> 
> ...


No luckily, never had pool ice problems round here.


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## theiere (Mar 24, 2015)

It's not just an issue with the skimmer (s) and pipe degrading it can also cause unnecessary damage to the pump. The chlorine tablets are very acidic as they contain cyanuric acid to protect the chlorine from being broken down by the sun. When they are in the skimmers the tablets continue to dissolve and the acidic water attacks the plastic of the skimmers and the pipework and also pump internals.

The tablets are meant to be dissolved in a floating dispenser as they then dissolve at the correct rate rather than too fast as they do in the skimmer.

Its not so much the volume of water and the size of the pump, it's the actual flow rate achieved. Many people see the pump plate with for example 15m3/hour, that is the pump without the restriction of the plumbing and filter. The actual flow rate could be half that.

Running constantly for 24hrs does mean the skimmers can skim off the detritus rather than it sinking and requiring the addition of a pool robot etc to remove it. The issue is the cost of doing this. I run my pool 24/7 and the cost of 24 hours is less than you would pay to run yours for 2 hours. This means the pool is much much cleaner and I don't own a pool robot, sold it 4 seasons ago when I changed to 24 hour running.


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## Desiato (Jun 1, 2015)

theiere said:


> It's not just an issue with the skimmer (s) and pipe degrading it can also cause unnecessary damage to the pump. The chlorine tablets are very acidic as they contain cyanuric acid to protect the chlorine from being broken down by the sun. When they are in the skimmers the tablets continue to dissolve and the acidic water attacks the plastic of the skimmers and the pipework and also pump internals.
> 
> The tablets are meant to be dissolved in a floating dispenser as they then dissolve at the correct rate rather than too fast as they do in the skimmer.
> 
> ...


Totally agree with you about the chlorine tabs in the floater rather than the skimmer basket. Not entirely sure what you mean by the statement _"I run my pool 24/7 and the cost of 24 hours is less than you would pay to run yours for 2"_ unless you meant you have a variable speed pump and you have it set to the lowest speed/power setting so the cost would be the equivalent of running a regular pump for two hours?


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## theiere (Mar 24, 2015)

Yes Desiato, something like that, But I would warn anyone who decides just to change to a variable speed pump and wind it down to the lowest setting to be very aware that pool equipment is pretty rubbish, by that I mean it was never designed to work efficiently as the industry doesn't understand efficiency and how water actually flows. 

That means you normally put a big over powerful pump on the pool and no matter how badly it was plumbed the water will arrive at the returns. Doing that with less power means lots of things may not work very well, skimmers for instance do not really do the job at a flow rate of less than 4m3/hour. Poorly positioned returns will not do the job very well either.

I have put a lot of hours into the design of the pools I work on and also fortunately some pools were also built well from the start. If it's engineered properly the savings in financial terms are pretty high. I don't know the rates you pay for electricity in Spain but in France €3500 savings over 10 years means a few pools would effectively have cost nothing especially above ground pools but it's also the improvement in water quality and less maintenance time which provides extra benefits.


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## Desiato (Jun 1, 2015)

Ok, that’s quite confusing. You seem to be confirming you are running a variable speed pump at its most cost efficient (IE lowest speed setting) but then go on to say that they don’t really work because the industry doesn't understand efficiency and how water flows. When my pump eventually gives up the ghost I was considering swapping it out for a VSP but it looks like I will need to read up a little more on the pros and cons. 

Looking at this from a different angle, the goal for all pool owners is to keep their water as clear and clean as possible for the least amount of expenditure. If we exclude chemicals and pool equipment, what we are talking about is the cost to run the pump. You have calculated that you can save €350 a year in electricity costs but without knowing what the starting figure is and how the pump was being used (regular pump running for 24/7?), that figure is meaningless. Electricity prices will be different from country to country so the only way to compare is to look at the number of electricity units you use and compare that to the number of units we use. If I read it right, you run your pool pump 24/7 but is that 365 days a year? 

I have a standard 750w pump (10x5 pool) and I eased back on the number of hours a day it was running it from 4 (at night, cheap rate) in the summer, to 3 at the start of autumn, 2 at the end of autumn and then 1 hour a day from October through to April. At no time have I had a problem with the clarity or cleanliness of the water (less than 0.5ppm of CC at all times). In fact, one week in December I had forgotten to switch the power switch back to timer and the pool sat without any circulation for 7 days, again without any detectable problems. Maybe I just got lucky but this leaves me to think I may be able to get away with just half an hour a day next winter? Can’t hurt to experiment. 

So in short, how many units of electricity are using a day? That will tell me how efficient I am being.


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## theiere (Mar 24, 2015)

Yes Desiato,
I understand your point(s).

How and where to read up? There is precious little available on the subject and a lot of the "Eco" pumps being pushed are not all that eco when you look closely enough and as per usual the accountants have set the selling price so you might make a small saving (same with so many green energy products).

Yes it's not a different angle it is THE angle, I think we all want the same thing for our pools.
Not having the additional expense of buy a pool robot + the additional electricity to run it is a big saving on it's own and I didn't include that so you could argue another €1000+ euros saved.

I do get the occasional 2-5 leaves that miss the skimmers so a small electric vac does the couple of minutes it takes to get them. (a fair number of trees around my pool).

A 3/4 hp std pump using around 750w? I am not running mine at the lowest setting, it's at the most effective but around 50w during the day and 35w at night, that's still sufficient to get the surface moving well enough to get the skimmer filling with leaves when windy. That is the biggest drawback, having to empty the skimmer more frequently.

Short running like that you are doing works for some pools but not others as dead spots mean algae growth as I said not all pools are bad but short running if you have trees and bushes means more work for the owners as skimmers only work when the system is running. I my pool wasn't surrounded by trees and bushes (which I like) I probably would shorten down the run time as well. My 24 hour run time works for my setup as the water is filter on a 6 hour turnover, so I get 4 turnovers per day. We know from Cage and Bidwells research and mathematical modelling that one turnover only filter around 42% of the water although their model was a little out we recon it to be around 52-58% so as more dirt gets added gradually the water quality declines which is where we believe the problems arise by the middle of the season for some. Batherload is obviously a major factor to.

I use equipment far more sensitive than the aging human eye to test the water and the water clarity improves by a factor of around 4 with 24 hour running (better than tap water in some areas) so robot cleaning is not required and there is no loss of clarity when lots of people are in the pool, no little dust cloud to be seen unlike so many pools I visit.

I close my pool over winter with a dark winter cover (NOT mesh) I do this in mid September when the guests have left and it's closed up until early June when new guest are arriving. That's no circulation at all, because the water is so clean when it's covered and so low in algae nutrients, algae has never been an issue.

I use around 1.02 kw/day for 24 hour running.


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## Desiato (Jun 1, 2015)

So in round numbers, 1kw/day for 100 days is your yearly electricity costs. I'll have to get my abacus out to see what mine is but it's clearly more than yours as I don't have an eco pump. My household electricity monitor records an increase of 1.2kw when the pump is running (despite it being a 750w motor) so I need to do further tests to get a more accurate reading of kw/day/year usage. 

For the OP, running a regular pump for 4 hours a day at the height of the season seems to be the consensus of opinions, not just here but on pool forums so you certainly don't NEED to run your pump 24/7. An eco pump means you can run it for longer at lower costs and as theiere says, the more water through the filter the cleaner it will be (once you've got the chemistry balance right....but that's another story). 

I don't think even the most ignorant of pool owners uses their eyes to judge whether the pool is technically clean. They all know they have to put chlorine in it and will use the test strips to guide them but as I've discovered, the strips are hopelessly inaccurate and I now use a commercial drop test kit from LaMotte which has made a world of difference. 

We run the risk of boring the pants off everyone when we get too technical (I know I have) because most people just want a pool that looks clean, doesn't hurt their eyes or turn their hair green. Unfortunately, it’s not that easy and as the saying goes, there’s more than one way to crack an egg. As has been mentioned by a few posters on this site, there is another way of keeping your pool clean without buying any of the pool store chemicals and draining half the pool every year. Unfortunately, it does require daily monitoring and chlorine additions (bleach) but the benefits do seem to outweigh the extra hassle, especially the need to drain a large part of the pool each year which is another (big) cost that can often be overlooked.

The TFP site in the US (Pool School - TFP Home Page) has some invaluable information but you do have to wade through some stuff that we can’t do because some of the chemicals aren't available here. Including cheap solar covers…..grrrrrr


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## theiere (Mar 24, 2015)

Desiato, I think you hit the nail squarely on the head with the motor is a 750 w but when operating I get 1.2 kw on the meter. Obviously some more info would be useful but that sounds more like a 1hp motor and under load they do use more than people think. They also believe the flow rate on the motor plate but that is never the actual flow through the pipes and I have measured dozens of pools. It's the starting point of my conversions.

You'd also be amazed the number of people who do use their fading eyesight to judge the water and a large number of those are also pool industry people, probably the most ignorant, I know I have met and worked with enough.

Most of the chemicals used on the TFP pool site are available, what are you getting stuck with? Whilst there is an obvious attraction to cheap solar cover you get what you pay for as the saying goes and good UV resistance is the key to longevity, The Geobubble is a very good cover and I get those at reasonable prices.

Great to chat with you, thanks for sharing your time.
Regards
John


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## Desiato (Jun 1, 2015)

Borax is one chemical we can’t get here and I’ve also not been able to find any sequestrants. I’m about to visit my local pool store (no joy in the DIY stores) to see if they have any Diatomaceous Earth (or Tierra de Diatomeas as it translates to in Spanish) to take out some of the finer particles in the sand filter. We’ll see if I have to add that one to the list. 

The yanks can get perfectly decent 400 micron 12mm covers for under $100 but we can’t seem to get anything similar here for less than €300. The Geobubble range are all above this cost but I’d be interested in a price if you want to pm me. It’s quite an outlay for something that may only last a couple of seasons, especially if your chlorine is maintained around 6ppm as mine is and is likely to shorten the life of the cover. I’ve even been tempted to get one shipped over from the states but they won’t ship one as large as 10m x 5m. 

The pump is a 1Hp 16k l/hr but I’ve got no way of knowing if it is actually performing at those rates. Going back to something we mentioned before, I’m fully aware that I’m not turning my water over with the pump running for just an hour but so far, it hasn’t led to any algae blooms. Common wisdom says you should turn your water over at least once a day but I seem to be going against this wisdom and getting away with it, only time will tell for how long and whether I can in fact take it any lower. 

Before I took ownership of the pool, it looked clear but there never seemed to be any chlorine in the pool and the pressure would increase so rapidly I would have to backwash every day, sometimes twice if I was hoovering. This had been going on for years so it became the norm but the TFP people diagnosed this as a low level algae bloom. I was sceptical but the water was perfectly clear…..but they were right. I now backwash once every three months and the water is REALLY clear. 
Think we have hijacked this thread but the OP has got his info (4 hours a day) so I don’t think it matters.


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## theiere (Mar 24, 2015)

Surprised you can't find borax, its used widely in ceramics and tiles which are huge industries in Spain? Also farmers suppliers for agri usage.

Sequestrants, why? Have you a metals problem, It's a pool industry thing, bind up metals with sequestrants and your chlorine will spend a fair amount of it's usage burning out the sequestrant i.e. it increase the chlorine demand. Some sequestrants are phosphate based and that's like caffine for algae but it's a merry go round which you pay for, more chlorine leads to more sequestrant yada, yada. If you have a metals problem remove the metals.

DE powder has a very high level of free silicates, not something to injest or breath in as it leads to respiratory issues like silicosis. Better to use Jollyjelly or LoChlor's Miraclear, both of which can lower phosphate levels in the water and some ability to collect metals.

It won't be the 6ppm chlorine damaging the cover, it's the sun's U.V. rays and poor quality manufacture with thinning on the corner of the bubbles. Geobubble cover has no corners so will outlast the others and with the 180+ you get a higher UV resistance. 

6ppm chlorine so I assume you have a high cyanuric acid level? (80ppm). 

Low level algae..... Ah yes TFP's panacea for everything they don't know about. The good guys left there several years back, only Chemgeek remains as the knowledge base (he's a friend of mine) More like a build up of crud in the sand filter, domestic filters do not back wash very well and the overlooked but very hard working sand filters get very nasty inside. Running a high level of chlorine will eventually oxidise most things out of the sand filter including biofilms to some extent. 

You could soak the sand filter with chlorine dioxide to shift a lot of the muck or alternatively ditch the sand in favour of something much better like AFM glass (NOT any other glass) AFM is unique and has a self sterilising surface so bacteria can't grow on it. It filters much finer to 4 microns so more is removed from the water and it never needs changing. 

I am working on a new filter at the moment, hopefully around 25% more efficient than current models. Have to patent that one so can't say any more about it.


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

I order borax here. I use mine in homemade washing powder, but have never thought of the pool, could you explain its uses?

Their prices and service are very good.

Borax Polvo Decahidratado 1kg.


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## Desiato (Jun 1, 2015)

Borax was banned when traces of it were found in the 2004 Madrid train bombings, You can still get very tiny amounts at the pharmacy but not enough to make bombs/be useful for swimming pools. I have a few €2 sized stains and a larger chlorine tab sized stain that I would like to remove but without the sequestrant, the stains will just settle elsewhere (so they say at TFP). Due to cost I have no intention of changing the water in the pool so for now, I’ll just have to live with the stains.
Not heard of Jollyjelly or LoChlor's Miraclear but I'm not trying to lower phosphate levels but remove the finer particles that the sand filter can’t. 

According to some solar cover suppliers, they don’t guarantee their covers with a chlorine ppm over 3 so that would suggest they degrade faster with higher Chlorine levels. Chem Geek even said the same although that was in 2009, maybe things have changed since then?

CYA is 60 so I keep it between 5 and 7 as per the TFP guidelines. 

As for the sand filter and the constant rise in pressure, nope, it wasn't crud in the filter. I’d already changed the glass media and taken out and cleaned all the laterals and as far as I could tell, everything was working fine. When I did a SLAM, out came gallons of ‘milk’ (dead algae) and my high pressure days were over. My glass is just the regular stuff they sell in the DIY stores (didn't know any better at the time) but read that there are all different grades with very mixed results. Will make a note of AFM glass for when the time comes to change it again. 

Patenting a new filter, sounds exciting! But what would be your current recommendations for a variable speed filter? Oops, I meant pump.


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## Desiato (Jun 1, 2015)

Madliz said:


> I order borax here. I use mine in homemade washing powder, but have never thought of the pool, could you explain its uses?
> 
> Their prices and service are very good.
> 
> Borax Polvo Decahidratado 1kg.


Interesting, maybe someone saw sense and over turned the ban? It's only a detergent after all. 

It's used to make the water feel soft, just like you get out of the tap when you have a water softener. There's probably other reasons but I've forgotten what they were as I gave up on it when I found out it was banned.

Just found the link. http://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/4655-So-you-want-to-add-borates-to-your-pool-Why-and-How


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## theiere (Mar 24, 2015)

Back later, short on time but Jolly Jelly and miraclear are really good clarifiers better than DE and no risk, removing some phosphates and metals too a bonus. Back later


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## theiere (Mar 24, 2015)

Desiato said:


> Borax was banned when traces of it were found in the 2004 Madrid train bombings, You can still get very tiny amounts at the pharmacy but not enough to make bombs/be useful for swimming pools. I have a few €2 sized stains and a larger chlorine tab sized stain that I would like to remove but without the sequestrant, the stains will just settle elsewhere (so they say at TFP). Due to cost I have no intention of changing the water in the pool so for now, I’ll just have to live with the stains.
> Not heard of Jollyjelly or LoChlor's Miraclear but I'm not trying to lower phosphate levels but remove the finer particles that the sand filter can’t.
> 
> According to some solar cover suppliers, they don’t guarantee their covers with a chlorine ppm over 3 so that would suggest they degrade faster with higher Chlorine levels. Chem Geek even said the same although that was in 2009, maybe things have changed since then?
> ...


Desiato, what is the finish in your pool, liner, plaster,pebbletec? I ask because of the small staining issues, maybe a picture? [email protected]

Madliz, borax is mainly used to help stabilise the pH around 7.5 and it also has algaestat properties. It won't stop an algae attack but could help slow one down is the chlorine drops too low. Removing the food source for algae (phosphates also helps, no food no algae).

Desiato if you have metal staining and remove it with ascorbic the sequestrant only works until the chlorine breaks it down then they come back again so best to remove the metals if possible.

Jollyjelly forms as the name suggests a jelly surface on the sand filter and the gloop can catch all manner of small particles, cheaper and easier to use than DE. I can send the little block by post if required.

The damaging part of chlorine in water is the hypochlorous acid level and if you had 1ppm chlorine and no cyanuric acid (CYA) that would be way more damaging than 6ppm with 60ppm CYA which is actually equivalent to 0.1ppm of chlorine in a pool with no CYA. The cover would be safe from that, it's the suns UV that oxidises the plastic far quicker hence the 180+ grade is for use in higher sun areas. Using the sun cover when the solar cover is not on the pool further protects it.

Anything other than AFM or sand should be avoided, yes good sand is better than bad glass! It's not just what goes into the filter that counts it's what you can backwash out to leave the filter clean as you have found out. Please read the report 
http://www.drydenaqua.com/downloads/pdf/IFTS_Report_E_Print.pdf

Before recommending a new variable speed pump, I would need to see the pool and equipment at least via photos to see what the setup is now. You would still save some money just swapping but the big savings that I achieve need some more careful planning (90+% savings guaranteed)


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