# Shipping arrival



## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

Our shipping container arrived yesterday morning, 2 weeks for Ben and I to pack, nearly 6 weeks sailing, only 3 days to clear customs, no extra fees. (Returning Filipino BIR tax exemption)
All the belongings were placed where we directed, now 60 to 70 boxes to unpack over the next few months, good to see our things here and nothing appears to be broken.

Great to deal with these companies.

Cheers, Steve.


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## M.C.A. (Feb 24, 2013)

Steve thank you for the update and it sounds like everyone when smoothly plus you made sure all documents in order. So it sounds like it was a door to door service?


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

M.C.A. said:


> Steve thank you for the update and it sounds like everyone when smoothly plus you made sure all documents in order. So it sounds like it was a door to door service?


Yes Mark, door to door. We had the container delivered in Oz and we spent 2 weeks packing it, not the shipping company, we did the manifest etc. As said this end PH) the crew unloaded and placed furniture and gear where we wanted but we will unpack everything.

We used a reputable company in Oz and they arranged the forwarding company in Manila who is an affiliate and very good operators. Lots of paper work in Oz and even more in Ph but the forwarders helped out with all that with only one visit to their office in Manila, Bengie for his tax exemption and sign many doc's.

Cheers, Steve.


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## Rwestgate (Jan 29, 2019)

bigpearl said:


> Our shipping container arrived yesterday morning, 2 weeks for Ben and I to pack, nearly 6 weeks sailing, only 3 days to clear customs, no extra fees. (Returning Filipino BIR tax exemption)
> All the belongings were placed where we directed, now 60 to 70 boxes to unpack over the next few months, good to see our things here and nothing appears to be broken.
> 
> Great to deal with these companies.
> ...


what container company did you use?


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

Rwestgate said:


> what container company did you use?


I hope it's OK to post?

https://www.ossworldwidemovers.com/

and their forwarding company from the port, customs etc and deliver to us 6 hours north of Manila was:

AGS Four Winds in Manila.

Cheers, Steve.


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## Rebaqshratz (May 15, 2016)

I also had a great result shipping a 40 footer from Boston to Manila. I used a United affiliate in the states and they packed everything and also guaranteed that nothing would be broken. Their partner outfit in Manila unloaded and unpacked everything as well as reassembly and placement in the house. This help a lot because we have a second floor. It is very comforting having all my personal stuff here with me which includes a complete work shop. The benefit for a returning dual citizen is significant and much appreciated by our family. Customs was handle entirely by the receiving forwarder and was hassle free from my perspective. TG for that.


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

Rebaqshratz said:


> I also had a great result shipping a 40 footer from Boston to Manila. I used a United affiliate in the states and they packed everything and also guaranteed that nothing would be broken. Their partner outfit in Manila unloaded and unpacked everything as well as reassembly and placement in the house. This help a lot because we have a second floor. It is very comforting having all my personal stuff here with me which includes a complete work shop. The benefit for a returning dual citizen is significant and much appreciated by our family. Customs was handle entirely by the receiving forwarder and was hassle free from my perspective. TG for that.


I agree Reba, pay the bucks and your gear gets here intact and nary a drama with customs if you cross the t's and dot the I's, just to replace tools here would cost a fortune here let alone household goods and collectables. Fortunately most of my Aussie power tools are 240 volts 50/60cycles same with a lot of our household kitchen goods.

Cheers, Steve.


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## Nickleback99 (Aug 6, 2011)

bigpearl said:


> Our shipping container arrived yesterday morning, 2 weeks for Ben and I to pack, nearly 6 weeks sailing, only 3 days to clear customs, no extra fees. (Returning Filipino BIR tax exemption)
> All the belongings were placed where we directed, now 60 to 70 boxes to unpack over the next few months, good to see our things here and nothing appears to be broken.
> 
> Great to deal with these companies.
> ...


Steve, one question I have was gonna ask in PM, but figure benefits the group , is there any exit plan reverse shipping method you know of? I’d love to ship some of our belongings over vice BB boxes, so we could also do some furniture as well, but have only seen one possible post in past about a place near airport that ships Out of the TP. I know there has be a way because all these embassy folks don’t stay forever and move to other countries or back home with full shipments at some pint. Anyway figured I’d ask you and any others for ideas since many have researched or lived it already. In the end, who knows?...we might check in and never leave....a la “Hotel California”


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

Nickleback99 said:


> Steve, one question I have was gonna ask in PM, but figure benefits the group , is there any exit plan reverse shipping method you know of? I’d love to ship some of our belongings over vice BB boxes, so we could also do some furniture as well, but have only seen one possible post in past about a place near airport that ships Out of the TP. I know there has be a way because all these embassy folks don’t stay forever and move to other countries or back home with full shipments at some pint. Anyway figured I’d ask you and any others for ideas since many have researched or lived it already. In the end, who knows?...we might check in and never leave....a la “Hotel California”


Morning Jay, mirrors on the ceiling? Yes I have seen few posts about sending boxes or containers out of PH. but I'm sure it's possible. For me I hope this is my final move so never gave a thought to shipping anything back.
The company I dealt with in Oz sold part container space but we filled ours. The forwarders in Manila were fantastic to deal with and as said nothing broken or missing, customs never cut the the seal, there were no extra fees as all the paperwork was correct as advised by our handler, the seal was cut when the container arrived to our house.

Could I suggest a starting point with this company "AGS four winds" to enquire about shipping out gear. I will PM you the contact details of the assistant manager, I'm pretty sure he is Scottish and easy to chat with. If they can't help I'm sure they could point you in the right direction.

Good luck and hope to catch up when you move back.

Cheers, Steve.


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## HondaGuy (Aug 6, 2012)

its definitely possible but probably expensive. I had my company relocate a bunch of my furniture and stuff from the Philippines back to the US a few months ago and they used AGS Four Winds as well. All my stuff was in a 20ft container but I have no idea how much it cost to ship. I'll check the shipping documents and report back if I can find anything.


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## Nickleback99 (Aug 6, 2011)

Thanks HondaGuy! Look forward to the info. We had long talk last night and now more inclined to move over long term and pursue the "retirement dream" while helping some family members (kids) that need it. Still keep options open and always a plan B, since some point in hopefully distant future, I'd expect to hit a health/medical snag and need for me at least to move back home. Future is never known, so will enjoy the present.


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## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

HondaGuy said:


> .... but I have no idea how much it cost to ship. I'll check the shipping documents and report back if I can find anything.


To get a rough idea. (2017 costs)

https://moverdb.com/container-shipping/

A 20 ft container from New York to Manila is about $US 700. Other direction might be more as more goods go that direction. That;s port to port, land transport costs will be a few bucks per mile plus loading and unloading costs.

I'd guess shipping speed would matter as well, next ship out might be more than if you are willing to wait a couple weeks for a ship with spare room.


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

Manitoba said:


> To get a rough idea. (2017 costs)
> 
> https://moverdb.com/container-shipping/
> 
> ...


Wow, I got ripped off then Rick, AU 8,700.00 door to door and well under half the distance from NY. to Manila, sent from Brisbane AU.
Mind you I did get 3 quotes and they were all similar but had more faith with OSS. at 400 bucks more. Glad I have no intentions of moving back.

Cheers, Steve.


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## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

bigpearl said:


> Wow, I got ripped off then Rick, AU 8,700.00 door to door and well under half the distance from NY. to Manila, sent from Brisbane AU.
> Mind you I did get 3 quotes and they were all similar but had more faith with OSS. at 400 bucks more. Glad I have no intentions of moving back.
> 
> Cheers, Steve.


Any breakdown on how much was land transportation costs and how much was sea transportation cost? If you were any distance for either port that would have a huge impact on the shipping costs.

Sea distance is not that big a factor, if you look at the different places. New York to Montreal is very close but almost 40% of the cost of New York to Manila. I also think that the volume of traffic on a route makes a big difference. A busy route will have lots of available options and competition while a less used route will have a lot less competition and options.


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

Manitoba said:


> Any breakdown on how much was land transportation costs and how much was sea transportation cost? If you were any distance for either port that would have a huge impact on the shipping costs.
> 
> Sea distance is not that big a factor, if you look at the different places. New York to Montreal is very close but almost 40% of the cost of New York to Manila. I also think that the volume of traffic on a route makes a big difference. A busy route will have lots of available options and competition while a less used route will have a lot less competition and options.


Yes definitely depends on shipping origin Rick and the way it's consigned. 
Shipping container delivered to our house on the Sunny Coast one and a half hours north of the port on a tilt tray, 2 weeks sitting there for us to load, pick up with side lifter as it was about 8 tons, deliver to port. Ship to Manila, clearances etc. loaded onto semi trailer and freighted 6 hours north, a mini van accompanied the truck with 6 workers to unload and place where directed, then of course there was the trip back for them as well as off loading the container. 
I had some initial quotes 2 years ago from a Brisbane company to do the same but they only landed it in Manila and it was up to me to find a forwarder, their cost was just under AU 6K so I am assuming OSS costs were 6 to 6.5 and the balance to the forwarders. Regardless it was relatively painless, there were no duties or taxes which amazed me,,,,,, expecting a big slug and as said everything arrived and nothing was broken or even scratched but we did pack everything very well.

Cheers, Steve.


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## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

A semi tractor and trailer costs about $US 1 per km to operate. (That is North American prices with their lower fuel costs) Lets call it $AU 2 per km. Charge out rate will be at least double that so say you are 100 kms from the port then drop off and pick up would be $AU 800. (You pay both ways both times.) If it was a similar distance in the Philippines you can quickly get a quarter of your total cost just in land transportation alone.

It sounds like you also rented the container so add in something for that. They may even have added in a drop off cost for returning at a different location than your pick up spot. Depending on condition, buying a used container costs about $US 2 to 5 k. If buying watch out for ownership and these have serial numbers and people have been know to sell ones that they don't actually own. When scanned at a port the true ownership can come to light.

The web site I gave is sea shipping costs only, port to port with no additional fees or costs.

Bottom line is if you were happy with the service you got for what you paid then you got a good deal.


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## hogrider (May 25, 2010)

Manitoba said:


> To get a rough idea. (2017 costs)
> 
> https://moverdb.com/container-shipping/
> 
> ...


$700 sounds incredibly cheap. I have shipped a few cars from US to Dubai and a 20ft container port to port was $2,000.


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## Rebaqshratz (May 15, 2016)

bigpearl said:


> Our shipping container arrived yesterday morning, 2 weeks for Ben and I to pack, nearly 6 weeks sailing, only 3 days to clear customs, no extra fees. (Returning Filipino BIR tax exemption)
> All the belongings were placed where we directed, now 60 to 70 boxes to unpack over the next few months, good to see our things here and nothing appears to be broken.
> 
> Great to deal with these companies.
> ...


I had the same type of result when shipping a 40 footer over when we moved back full time. They even assembled the stuff that had been broken down for the shipping container. Call me "surprised and happy"


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## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

hogrider said:


> $700 sounds incredibly cheap. I have shipped a few cars from US to Dubai and a 20ft container port to port was $2,000.


The site lists New York to Dubai just over $1700.

Remember that is shipping only, not land transportation or any customs or other brokerage services. Single shipments can expect to pay more bulk shippers will get less.

So $2k USA to Dubai is not out of line. Perhaps a surcharge for vehicles due to potential hazardous materials like gasoline and oils in the container?


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## hogrider (May 25, 2010)

Manitoba said:


> The site lists New York to Dubai just over $1700.
> 
> Remember that is shipping only, not land transportation or any customs or other brokerage services. Single shipments can expect to pay more bulk shippers will get less.
> 
> So $2k USA to Dubai is not out of line. Perhaps a surcharge for vehicles due to potential hazardous materials like gasoline and oils in the container?


I shipped typically out of Florida, and cost was port to port without any transportation charges. i shipped a sailboat once, the land transportation charges from San Francisco to Florida were in excess of $2000.


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## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

How big a sailboat? If it was a full semi trailer load then that was pretty cheap.

We used to charge out (or pay depending on the needs) semi with dump trailers at between $CDN 120 to $CDN 150 per hour Say ($US 90 to $US 120) for road construction work. A distance hauler would be a little more because of down time on the road needing to be paid (a trucker can typically only drive 10-12 hours a day) and a long distance rig having sleeper cabs etc.

That is about a 40 hour drive (depending where in Ca and where in Florida) so at least $3,600 for a full load one way. You may get a break if it is a back haul (the rig was going that way anyway, empty or not) or if less than a full load. and the trucker was able to fill the rest of the load.

Pricing transportation is a pretty complex area with lots of variables, land distance, load full or not, is it a back haul or not, time constraints, tolls en route, height restrictions, containerized loads or not, hazardous goods, volumes shipped, special handling or rigging needed (how do you tie down a sailboat on a semi trailer?) etc.

If you priced out the service got 3 or more quotes that were close then that is about the going rate. This is an area that is highly competitive in most places and everyone in the business knows the rates, how busy the competition is right now etc.

*If you were happy with the service and with what you paid then you got a good deal*. Perhaps a more knowledgeable person, or one in less of a hurry, or someone who ships a lot of loads around may have gotten a better deal but perhaps not.


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## Tim_L (Jul 14, 2018)

Manitoba said:


> To get a rough idea. (2017 costs)
> 
> https://moverdb.com/container-shipping/
> 
> ...


I just got a quote from them for a 20’ container, door to door from Florida to Cebu,
$5,800.00. Yikes.
I’m beginning to wonder if I really like my stuff all that much. Lol


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## fmartin_gila (May 15, 2011)

Tim_L said:


> I just got a quote from them for a 20’ container, door to door from Florida to Cebu,
> $5,800.00. Yikes.
> I’m beginning to wonder if I really like my stuff all that much. Lol


It does give one some thoughts. I found that I don't have the "need" for all the stuff that I thought I had to have. Unbelievable how much stuff one collects during living someplace and how much of it is "needed" and how much is actually required. We sold/gave away everything except shipped 4 Balikbayan boxes and the suitcases we carried. 

No regrets.

Fred


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## Tim_L (Jul 14, 2018)

fmartin_gila said:


> It does give one some thoughts. I found that I don't have the "need" for all the stuff that I thought I had to have. Unbelievable how much stuff one collects during living someplace and how much of it is "needed" and how much is actually required. We sold/gave away everything except shipped 4 Balikbayan boxes and the suitcases we carried.
> 
> No regrets.
> 
> Fred


Same here Fred. I’ve been here for a year and haven’t needed or missed much of anything that I have in the US aside from maybe appliances which wouldn’t be of much use here and some tools. My computer, TV and Nvidia box I have l have already replaced here.
I need to formulate some kind of plan though as everything is sitting in storage at home costing me money with each passing month.


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## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

Tim_L said:


> Same here Fred. I’ve been here for a year and haven’t needed or missed much of anything that I have in the US aside from maybe appliances which wouldn’t be of much use here and some tools. My computer, TV and Nvidia box I have l have already replaced here.
> I need to formulate some kind of plan though as everything is sitting in storage at home costing me money with each passing month.


I landed with just my two checked bags, so far to replace what I left behind has been less than shipping would have been. I have since picked up my dive gear and brought it back with me.

I am however in a rather unique situation, or should I say one extreme of the possession department. After my divorce I left my ex with just about everything since I was not going to live in Canada any more. I did stay a couple years and simply bought some lower end but serviceable furniture. My daughter now has it and it is in her rental unit so she can advertise it as a furnished apartment. So far she has collected more additional rent than I paid, and I got 20 months use out of it. (However dear old dad never saw a penny lol)

North American furniture is simply not all that suitable for use in Philippines. Unless you are from the south the climate is so different, apartment sizes are different, voltages are different it is just as easy to sell everything save on shipping and replace once here and then you start a fresh life with new furniture suitable for your home and the local climate.

All I would ever recommend to anyone to bring are things of immense sentimental value, special items for your hobbies etc and just buy new here for everything else.


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

fmartin_gila said:


> It does give one some thoughts. I found that I don't have the "need" for all the stuff that I thought I had to have. Unbelievable how much stuff one collects during living someplace and how much of it is "needed" and how much is actually required. We sold/gave away everything except shipped 4 Balikbayan boxes and the suitcases we carried.
> 
> No regrets.
> 
> Fred


So true Fred and some people can do this and others like me decided to ship. All the things we brought here especially good quality furniture, collectable paintings, sentimental stuff etc, we cannot buy here. On reflection we should have sent more as there are many things especially tools that I was going to send but the container was full. 
I did do the costings time and again and for me it was a no brainer, simple things like sell a $ 3,000.00 bed for a hundred bucks then replace it here? That's only 1 item. $ 20,000.00 of indigenous artwork that I won't part with, yes we also sent some 25 paintings to auction and did very well, ones I could live without. We also sold heaps of stuff that I thought we didn't need but on reflection already miss some like my Stihl chainsaw and a simple 20 dollar cement sheet cutter.

Unfortunately the sale of our house in Oz fell over so I am heading back this weekend for who knows how long as there are lawns to mow, pool and property maintenance etc until it sells. Don't want to impose on my friends to do this.
While I am there I will be sending 3 or 4 Balakbayan boxes to Bengie, simple things like decent clothes pegs, decent fixing screws and a plethora of more "junk". unavailable here.

Any way in those famous words "I shall return".

Cheers Steve,


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## Tim_L (Jul 14, 2018)

bigpearl said:


> So true Fred and some people can do this and others like me decided to ship. All the things we brought here especially good quality furniture, collectable paintings, sentimental stuff etc, we cannot buy here. On reflection we should have sent more as there are many things especially tools that I was going to send but the container was full.
> I did do the costings time and again and for me it was a no brainer, simple things like sell a $ 3,000.00 bed for a hundred bucks then replace it here? That's only 1 item. $ 20,000.00 of indigenous artwork that I won't part with, yes we also sent some 25 paintings to auction and did very well, ones I could live without. We also sold heaps of stuff that I thought we didn't need but on reflection already miss some like my Stihl chainsaw and a simple 20 dollar cement sheet cutter.
> 
> Unfortunately the sale of our house in Oz fell over so I am heading back this weekend for who knows how long as there are lawns to mow, pool and property maintenance etc until it sells. Don't want to impose on my friends to do this.
> ...


Agreed. Tools are probably my missed items here. Sorry to hear that the house sale fell through Steve. That sucks.


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## hogrider (May 25, 2010)

Manitoba said:


> How big a sailboat? If it was a full semi trailer load then that was pretty cheap.
> 
> We used to charge out (or pay depending on the needs) semi with dump trailers at between $CDN 120 to $CDN 150 per hour Say ($US 90 to $US 120) for road construction work. A distance hauler would be a little more because of down time on the road needing to be paid (a trucker can typically only drive 10-12 hours a day) and a long distance rig having sleeper cabs etc.
> 
> ...


32ft sailboat. On a low loader. Had to have a police escort through California due to the oversize land. That cost extra of course. Yes I searched around for several quotes.


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## fmartin_gila (May 15, 2011)

Well now that sucks to have to go back because of the deal falling through. 

Just for info, and this may or may not be for some or any, but putting it out as food for thought for those who may want to be cleared back where we came from. This may not be available everywhere either. 

In 2008 or 2009, sometime after my last wife died, I took out a 'reverse mortgage' on the house & lot I had owned in Globe, Az for about 20 years( it had been free & clear about 10 years with no liens against it). When we (Asawa & I) moved to the ROP in 2014, all I did was shut off the water, gas, & elect, lock the doors and mail them the keys with a note. All done. 

If more info is needed by anyone, I will be glad to explain more or more details if anyone is interested.

Fred


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

fmartin_gila said:


> Well now that sucks to have to go back because of the deal falling through.
> 
> Just for info, and this may or may not be for some or any, but putting it out as food for thought for those who may want to be cleared back where we came from. This may not be available everywhere either.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately Fred it's a million plus dollar property and unfortunately I can't walk away, requires maintenance and then some....... Renting? Forget it. Need to be on the ground to keep up appearances and besides I will go back to work and rake in some bucks to pay for the proverbial over priced fence/not.

Cheers, Steve.


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## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

hogrider said:


> 32ft sailboat. On a low loader. Had to have a police escort through California due to the oversize land. That cost extra of course. Yes I searched around for several quotes.


You got an excellent deal on that. You were barely charged the operating cost of the rig.(Roughly $US 1 per km or $1.50 or so per mile.) My guess is that it was a back haul where the rig would have gone back empty otherwise. (Truckers will take a load somewhere and charge the original customer the return empty trip then try to pick up a back haul through a broker for some extra cash if they can get it.)

Was the truck available right away or did you have a wait to get the truck? If you had to wait then it definitely was a back haul, if not then it still could be one and you got lucky.


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## hogrider (May 25, 2010)

Manitoba said:


> You got an excellent deal on that. You were barely charged the operating cost of the rig.(Roughly $US 1 per km or $1.50 or so per mile.) My guess is that it was a back haul where the rig would have gone back empty otherwise. (Truckers will take a load somewhere and charge the original customer the return empty trip then try to pick up a back haul through a broker for some extra cash if they can get it.)
> 
> Was the truck available right away or did you have a wait to get the truck? If you had to wait then it definitely was a back haul, if not then it still could be one and you got lucky.


The trucking company tried to get out of the deal. I showed them the quote, to which they replied that the particular guy no longer worked for them. Not my problem, you have given me a quote. Eventually they agreed and kept to the deal. Documentation cost me an additional $2,000.


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## fmartin_gila (May 15, 2011)

bigpearl said:


> Unfortunately Fred it's a million plus dollar property and unfortunately I can't walk away, requires maintenance and then some....... Renting? Forget it. Need to be on the ground to keep up appearances and besides I will go back to work and rake in some bucks to pay for the proverbial over priced fence/not.
> 
> Cheers, Steve.


Actually the reverse mortgage program is pre-selling the property. You collect your selling price(less any fees) and continue to occupy the property until you either die or decide to leave. Either way, once you are no longer there and they are notified, it is no longer your responsibility for maintenance or otherwise. Hence the ability to "just walk away". 

Don't know if any such type of program is available in other countries than the US.

Fred


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## Tiz (Jan 23, 2016)

fmartin_gila said:


> Actually the reverse mortgage program is pre-selling the property. You collect your selling price(less any fees) and continue to occupy the property until you either die or decide to leave. Either way, once you are no longer there and they are notified, it is no longer your responsibility for maintenance or otherwise. Hence the ability to "just walk away".
> 
> Don't know if any such type of program is available in other countries than the US.
> 
> Fred


Seems to me that Reverse Mortgages work a bit differently in Oz.

A "Reverse mortgage” or “lifetime loan” allows you to borrow against the equity or asset value in your property for any purpose. 

It does not require any repayments on the life of the loan but you can make voluntary repayments if you wish to do this.

The loan does not have to be repaid until you choose to sell your home or the last surviving borrower passes away.

The Title of your home will stay in your name.

One thing good about the reverse mortgage, especially at the moment while house prices in Oz are falling, is that the Government has introduced statutory 'negative equity protection' on all new reverse mortgage contracts. This means you cannot end up owing the lender more than your home is worth (the market value or equity).
When the house is eventually sold, then any excess to your debt will go to you or your estate, but you cannot be held liable for any debt in excess of this.

From: https://www.moneysmart.gov.au/super...irement/home-equity-release/reverse-mortgages

An ASIC review of reverse mortgage lending in Australia found that borrowers can struggle to recognise the long-term risks of their loan.

By taking out a reverse mortgage, you could face financial difficulty later in life, because:


interest rates and ongoing fees are generally higher than the average home loan
your debt will increase as interest rates rise on your loan
the effect of compound interest means your debt can increase quickly as the interest compounds over the term of the loan
if the value of your home does not rise, or it falls in value, you will have less money for your future needs, like aged care or medical treatment
the loan may affect your pension eligibility
if you have a fixed interest rate loan then the costs to break your agreement can be very high.
Also keep in mind that if you are the sole owner of the property and someone lives with you, that person may not be able to stay when you move out or die (in some circumstances)
.


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

In the UK my understanding is that you basically sell your house to a company and carry on living there but the value can be significantly less than the market value.


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

My OP with regards to "Shipping arrival" has turned into "how much per mile" "what distance travelled, how big was it and ends up with reverse mortgages and next will be interest only commitments and how I profited on a pig sale. Perhaps great info for a new topic or relevant to other topics; should be started/contributed in a new topic or one that is relevant, sorry to be anal but staying on track or contributing/starting a new thread may perhaps put new life/interest here for those that wish to contribute within a designated topic but should stay on track.

Slap me as I'm still learning but if info does not pertain to the thread posted and a member wishes to contribute on a similar vane or askew then a new thread needs to be opened/started with relevances, references or alike to a previous topic. (this is similar) or as we say in Thailand "same same but different"

Cheers, Steve.


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