# The Case Against Emigrating to Spain



## Leper

M'lud, Learned Friends and Cynical Truth Tellers I ask you in your combined wisdom to convince anybody of sound mind and body to desist in leaving the UK to look for work in Spain.

1. There are no jobs for any tradesmen including mechanics, painters, plumbers, electricians, panel beaters, beauticians, hairdressers, workmen, television installers, airport-run runners, etc.

2. Spain is a graveyard of ambition for any forward looking person with even a love for hard work.

3. There are more work seeking people heading in the other direction from which you may be coming.

4. The Unemployment Situation in Spain is so high that it is a scandal.

5. Corrupt bankers, politicians, greedy-goats will ensure anybody getting over the first hurdle will fall before the second hurdle.

However, before arriving at a sentence perhaps somebody will forward a case advising people from the UK to seek work in Spain?

I would ask the jury to be silent and absorb any information offered. Perhaps the public can restrain from any emotional outbursts also.

Who will be First Witness?


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## Isobella

Well the weather is good sometimes a nd they could always run a bar


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## brocher

Leper said:


> M'lud, Learned Friends and Cynical Truth Tellers I ask you in your combined wisdom to convince anybody of sound mind and body to desist in leaving the UK to look for work in Spain.
> 
> 1. There are no jobs for any tradesmen including mechanics, painters, plumbers, electricians, panel beaters, beauticians, hairdressers, workmen, television installers, airport-run runners, etc.
> 
> 2. Spain is a graveyard of ambition for any forward looking person with even a love for hard work.
> 
> 3. There are more work seeking people heading in the other direction from which you may be coming.
> 
> 4. The Unemployment Situation in Spain is so high that it is a scandal.
> 
> 5. Corrupt bankers, politicians, greedy-goats will ensure anybody getting over the first hurdle will fall before the second hurdle.
> 
> However, before arriving at a sentence perhaps somebody will forward a case advising people from the UK to seek work in Spain?
> 
> I would ask the jury to be silent and absorb any information offered. Perhaps the public can restrain from any emotional outbursts also.
> 
> Who will be First Witness?



Agree to a large extent but- 

my daughter has no regrets, having secured legally, contracted work before she went, earning on par what she would have earned in the UK for her grade on the UK pay scale. What wasn't their to like- relevant professional experience for her CV while having a new adventure in a country relatatively close to the UK.


Can be done with the right qualifications.... but "willing to turn a hand to anything" just won't cut it right now.


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## alborino

I think the real problem in Spain is that it isn't going to get better. The light at the end of the tunnel really is an oncoming train. There is no plan and thus no hope. I remember a few years back the rose tinted optimist brigade saying "Yeah but it is the same as the UK; it will get better". Sadly it won't, well not in the next 25 years. 

But crazy people will still come just adding to the burden and making life worse for spaniards.


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## Horlics

I suggest all people guilty of Unnecessary Capitalisation of Random Words stay right Where they Are. 




Leper said:


> M'lud, Learned Friends and Cynical Truth Tellers I ask you in your combined wisdom to convince anybody of sound mind and body to desist in leaving the UK to look for work in Spain.
> 
> 1. There are no jobs for any tradesmen including mechanics, painters, plumbers, electricians, panel beaters, beauticians, hairdressers, workmen, television installers, airport-run runners, etc.
> 
> 2. Spain is a graveyard of ambition for any forward looking person with even a love for hard work.
> 
> 3. There are more work seeking people heading in the other direction from which you may be coming.
> 
> 4. The Unemployment Situation in Spain is so high that it is a scandal.
> 
> 5. Corrupt bankers, politicians, greedy-goats will ensure anybody getting over the first hurdle will fall before the second hurdle.
> 
> However, before arriving at a sentence perhaps somebody will forward a case advising people from the UK to seek work in Spain?
> 
> I would ask the jury to be silent and absorb any information offered. Perhaps the public can restrain from any emotional outbursts also.
> 
> Who will be First Witness?


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## Lynn R

Is "emigrating" synonymous with looking for work, though?

If it is, then I agree, I would never have come here if I'd needed to find a job, and I frequently advise people who enquire about doing so on forums not to do it.

However, surely one can emigrate to retire, live off savings, work remotely (as an increasing number of people seem to be able to do these days), work a shift pattern which enables them to spend their leisure time in whatever country they wish, and so on? I certainly wouldn't advise anyone who has suffficient income to live on, from whatever source, not to emigrate to Spain.


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## 213979

Horlics said:


> I suggest all people guilty of Unnecessary Capitalisation of Random Words stay right Where they Are.


Hey, maybe the _Unemployment Situation in Spain_ is now considered a proper compound noun!


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## alborino

Lynn R said:


> However, surely one can emigrate to retire, live off savings, work remotely (as an increasing number of people seem to be able to do these days), work a shift pattern which enables them to spend their leisure time in whatever country they wish, and so on? I certainly wouldn't advise anyone who has suffficient income to live on, from whatever source, not to emigrate to Spain.


Lynn that is it exactly. Your economy must remain outside Spain (pensions, business, source of income - yes there are odd exceptions but for most) and then one can exploit the opportunity created. 

However my wife is Spanish and with our planned move to Malaga/Cadiz she worries about buying a cheap property because she can't help thinking about those who lost everything. I know some will say "it is not your problem" but it is sad.

And of course one has to think about crime and security.

C'est la vie


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## mrypg9

Emigrate only if

you are not seeking employment
you are retired with a good income
you are willing to work long hours for crap wages on the black with no social security
your 'Spanish dream' is one of cleaning other people's pools and houses and cutting their lawns for a pittance
you speak no Spanish but intend to spend your time lurking around Brit bars looking for work on the black
you are totally ignorant of the massive unemployment in Spain and don't care anyway
you are totally ignorant about Spain 100%
you imagine life in Spain revolves around cheap booze and ****
you don't mind taking what work there is from a Spanish man or woman with a family to support
you think that your special qualities of being willing to work hard, see 'new angles' and turn your hand to anything will make you the exception and you will find a wonderful job with fabulous pay
you are really a bit of a chancer..


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## Alcalaina

alborino said:


> However my wife is Spanish and with our planned move to Malaga/Cadiz she worries about buying a cheap property because she can't help thinking about those who lost everything. I know some will say "it is not your problem" but it is sad.


I like your wife already.  But she need not feel guilty. An unsold property sitting empty isn't contributing to anybody's wellbeing. Far better that places should be lived in and the residents contributing to the local economy and community. You can always join PAH and help stop future evictions!

I worried about buying a house here in 2005 as a holiday home, because of all the damage that second homes do to local communities in parts of the UK. We live here permanently now, having retired earlier than originally planned, and realise that the opposite is the case in this town, which suffered massive depopulation in the post-transition period. Incoming foreigners are as welcome as the flowers of May, and not just for their spending power.


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## Chopera

brocher said:


> Agree to a large extent but-
> 
> my daughter has no regrets, having secured legally, contracted work before she went, earning on par what she would have earned in the UK for her grade on the UK pay scale. What wasn't their to like- relevant professional experience for her CV while having a new adventure in a country relatatively close to the UK.
> 
> 
> Can be done with the right qualifications.... but "willing to turn a hand to anything" just won't cut it right now.


Indeed, if you can combine decent skills with native English and fluent Spanish, then you have a chance of finding work that can provide you with a higher standard of living than in the UK. As with any country though, you have to go to the areas where there is work to be found. It's no good insisting on moving to seaside resorts with big expat communities if those aren't the areas where the work is.


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## Expatliving

I'll stand as a reluctant witness for the defence ... A UK perspective only.

So the UK is is the land of milk & honey now that the employment rate is going down? What a load of s ..

The divide between those with far too much and those with not a lot is now huge. Whilst people were losing their houses, flocking to food banks etc, big business (spit on the floor) were rubbing their hands together, making massive profits and rewarding their top brass with mega pay rises ... Meanwhile, in Cameronvile, his firm of millionaires managed to avoid sending one thieving banker to do time? Funny that ... At the same time, IDS was getting stuck into everybody he regarded as feckless, even those who had lost their jobs through the indirect actions of greedy banking institutions (still no bankers going to jail). Everybody without a job was encouraged to become 'self-employed' ... Thus, removed from the unemployment totals, strange that? European workers were encouraged to come to London to build the Olympic stadium, apparently, those British tradespeople were too lazy to build the thing, especially on wages that were current, rather than inflated. The result? Cheap labour (I'll mention those words again shortly). So, the UK now has loads of self employed builders, hairdressers, blah blah and an abundance of? You got it ... cheap labour from Europe.

Whilst this perfect for 'big business' storm brews, that financial divide gets even wider (still no bankers sent to prison) funny that? IDS starts looking down once again and pointing the finger at anybody who isn't working (get a self-employed job you lazy sod) ... Then comes the rise of the zero hours contract. Welcome to the UK 2014, where, as ever, the rich and elite tell the middle classes what to do and how much they're prepared to pay them. This annoys the middle classes, but the rich & elite suggest that the middle classes take it out on the 'working classes' (don't the middle classes work as well?). And there lies the problem, DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE ABOUT THE UK - SMOKE AND MIRRORS. I would suppose Spain is ten times worse, but the UK by comparison is a bloody folly for most, nothing is quite what it seems ... Don't comeback to the UK!


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## alborino

I see why you are a reluctant witness but a splendid effort. 

Thankfully in the UK the law is actioned according to due legal process. But to question the UK legal system from Spain must be a tough ask :eyebrows:

But a sterling effort I must say. 

However m'lud I call for the stiffist sentence. This defence is no more than unsubstantiated ramblings based on the Daily Mail. The accused "those coming to spain looking for work" should be dressed as bull fighters and sent to the ring. Then non drugged fit healthy bulls should be set upon them. I'd even go to that


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## jojo

The company I work for in the UK has just had a major recruitment drive in Spain. There are apparently such a lack of qualified nurses here, that they have gone to the cost and effort of doing this. Sending highly qualified staff and recruiters to several cities in Spain, holding interviews (in Spanish) and paying for their travel and initial accommodation.

Jo xxx


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## 90199

jojo said:


> The company I work for in the UK has just had a major recruitment drive in Spain. There are apparently such a lack of qualified nurses here, that they have gone to the cost and effort of doing this. Sending highly qualified staff and recruiters to several cities in Spain, holding interviews (in Spanish) and paying for their travel and initial accommodation.
> 
> Jo xxx


It is cheaper to recruit abroad than it is to train nurses in the U.K.


80,000 UK students told they can’t be nurses while NHS hire housands from abroad | UK | News | Daily Express


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## jojo

Hepa said:


> It is cheaper to recruit abroad than it is to train nurses in the U.K.
> 
> 
> 80,000 UK students told they can’t be nurses while NHS hire housands from abroad | UK | News | Daily Express



Yep thats the one!!! Its crazy tho - they are even given English lessons!!! While I'm pleased for them, there are trained nurses in the UK, but many now work for agencies and get paid double what the NHS pay them - and the irony in that is that the NHS use these agency nurses to fill gaps. I know of several nurses and trained clinicians, who have chucked in their NHS jobs, gone to an agency and are actually working their old jobs for twice the pay!!!! Altho then a Spanish nurse comes along and gets the post - eventually???

Jo xxx


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## The Skipper

If you are retired and have pension and investment income in GBP you will enjoy a far better standard of living in Spain than you would in the UK. Even when sterling slumped in value a few years ago we still felt better off and, of course, the weather, beaches and mountain scenery are priceless. But to anyone thinking of coming here to work or run a business my advice is: forget it!


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## Dunpleecin

Wot The Skipper said.


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## Leper

mrypg9 said:


> Emigrate only if
> 
> you are not seeking employment
> you are retired with a good income
> you are willing to work long hours for crap wages on the black with no social security
> your 'Spanish dream' is one of cleaning other people's pools and houses and cutting their lawns for a pittance
> you speak no Spanish but intend to spend your time lurking around Brit bars looking for work on the black
> you are totally ignorant of the massive unemployment in Spain and don't care anyway
> you are totally ignorant about Spain 100%
> you imagine life in Spain revolves around cheap booze and ****
> you don't mind taking what work there is from a Spanish man or woman with a family to support
> you think that your special qualities of being willing to work hard, see 'new angles' and turn your hand to anything will make you the exception and you will find a wonderful job with fabulous pay
> you are really a bit of a chancer..


Well put, my learned friend, but would you be part of a touring road show in the UK convincing people not to come to Spain seeking employment?


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## mrypg9

Leper said:


> Well put, my learned friend, but would you be part of a touring road show in the UK convincing people not to come to Spain seeking employment?


Oh yes. I've taken part in many touring road shows trying to convince people to vote Labour.
Not always successfully, alas


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## Pesky Wesky

I agree with much that has been said here.
I think people who are looking for work and who say they will turn their hand to anything may well find bits and pieces, but are very unlikely to find anything stable or legal; nothing to base a family economy on. (How many people actually find out about unemployment in Spain, or the economy of the country before coming here? How many simply assume that everything's just better in Spain?)
The weather may be warmer for some months of the year, but it will probably be wet and rainy for a few months too (How many people seriously research the weather? How many know of the numerous floods in the south of Spain, the Canaries and the Baleares? How many think damp is a thing of the past?) So wanting to come because the weather is better is not a strong enough reason.
I'm not on a pension so I can't give a personal opinion, but it seems that if you do your sums there is a real opportunity to live well in Spain on a pension, better possibly than in the UK. However, other things need to be taken into consideration. Health, a long term care plan, grandchildren, real possibilities of learning Spanish or being part of a foreign community...
Having said all that, there are of course others who manage to make a go of it, Brocher's daughter for one, so it can be done, but it has to be thought about. If getting a job is what's needed then look at possibilities first from your country of origin and think about those figures for the unemployed in Spain. (24% in Spain [52,4% for under 25's] 6% UK in Oct 2014 Desempleo | datosmacro.com) They should not be ignored.

This old thread is kind of related...
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...ain/112090-question-people-who-living-uk.html


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## mrypg9

There will always be people who find work, well-paid 'nice' work. There are people in certain professions, mainly in the more highly paid IT sector or the financial sector who see the world as their job market.
My son and dil combine the two sectors as they work in the City in IT in finance. They have friends who work in Germany, the Middle East, the States, the Far East and some whose work involves travelling to various countries. My son has considered working in Switzerland or Dubai as casually as I would have thought of working in London or Birmingham, more casually, in fact.
So it's inevitable that some people with transferable and sought-after skills will find rewarding and well-paid work in Spain.
But most people, certainly those that come on this Forum, don't come into that category. They want to work in or own bars or restaurants, or in one of the building trades, or that old classic 'will turn my hand to anything'. People seeking professional, well-paid jobs don't usually go on to Forums to find them. In fact, from earwigging on conversations when visiting family, it seems that this kind of professional finds new opportunities either by networking or being headhunted. Like Brocher's daughter, their contracts are signed and sealed before they board the plane.
Twenty years ago, I had a good well-paid job in the UK. I was a MFL teacher with two degrees, a PGCE and earned extra as a freelance translator/interpreter. But no way would I have left my secure UK job to seek work in Spain or anywhere abroad. 
Why? Because there were and are thousands like me. Because I wouldn't have had the same security or level of remuneration in Spain or elsewhere. My skills and experience are not so unique that they are avidly sought after. 
Yes, English teachers are in demand in Spain at the present time. But the pay isn't that good and job security isn't guaranteed. Great if you are young and want the experience and fun of working abroad for a short time.
But for a permanent move it's a gamble, especially if you have a family. I'm more like Herod than Dr Spock where childrearing is concerned but no way would I have uprooted my son after the age of say five to bring him to Spain so I could live my 'dream'.

Incidentally, it was nine years ago to this very day that we left the UK, happy early retirees - well, I was still working, flying to the UK once a week.. Nine years ago at this very time we were dining out in Prague with our friend Pavla and Standa, her husband. It was minus 10C, snowing and there was about half a metre of fresh snow on the ground. If anyone had told me that almost exactly six years later I would be happy and permanently settled in Spain, I would have told them to get real, no way would that happen.
But it did. Life takes you down some strange paths.


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## Pazcat

We moved because my wife was offered a job so I agree in a way with Brocher and Mary's comments. For the right position and with the right qualifications there are jobs, heck we had 3 on the go in Spain but chose Alicante in the end.

Would we have come without any contracted work?
No.

That is the long and short of it people, we wouldn't move anywhere no matter how shiny the local economy is without a position in hand.


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## Lynn R

You know all those enquiries we get about people wanting to run a bar or cafe in Spain, and we all throw up our hands in horror and say, don't go there?

I'm still sure that's the right advice in about 99% of cases, but just occasionally I come across one which bucks the trend. The latest was just yesterday\today whilst spending a couple of days in Malaga capital - a bike shop and a cafe\bar next door to each other (Recyclo) run by a young British guy and his American business partner. They've only been open a few months, so he told us, but it's really, really busy and I'm not surprised, it's such a nice, relaxed place with a good selection of food for both carnivores and vegetarians (one of our greatest difficulties in Spain is in finding places like this). They have live music events too, and run bicycle tours of the city from the shop next door. Long may they prosper, we will certainly go back.


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## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> You know all those enquiries we get about people wanting to run a bar or cafe in Spain, and we all throw up our hands in horror and say, don't go there?
> 
> I'm still sure that's the right advice in about 99% of cases, but just occasionally I come across one which bucks the trend. The latest was just yesterday\today whilst spending a couple of days in Malaga capital - a bike shop and a cafe\bar next door to each other (Recyclo) run by a young British guy and his American business partner. They've only been open a few months, so he told us, but it's really, really busy and I'm not surprised, it's such a nice, relaxed place with a good selection of food for both carnivores and vegetarians (one of our greatest difficulties in Spain is in finding places like this). They have live music events too, and run bicycle tours of the city from the shop next door. Long may they prosper, we will certainly go back.


Sounds good!


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## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> You know all those enquiries we get about people wanting to run a bar or cafe in Spain, and we all throw up our hands in horror and say, don't go there?
> 
> I'm still sure that's the right advice in about 99% of cases, but just occasionally I come across one which bucks the trend. The latest was just yesterday\today whilst spending a couple of days in Malaga capital - a bike shop and a cafe\bar next door to each other (Recyclo) run by a young British guy and his American business partner. They've only been open a few months, so he told us, but it's really, really busy and I'm not surprised, it's such a nice, relaxed place with a good selection of food for both carnivores and vegetarians (one of our greatest difficulties in Spain is in finding places like this). They have live music events too, and run bicycle tours of the city from the shop next door. Long may they prosper, we will certainly go back.


As you say, occasionally you find someone who does make a go of it. However this partnership sounds a long way from the majority of enquiries we get here asking about bar/ restaurant businesses. They have found something different to offer, and somehow have made it work. It sounds like they have a good knowledge of the area and also like they don't have dependants.

As I said in a previous post there are,_ of course _people who come here to work and are successful, but in a country with such high unemployment you've got to expect consequences all across the board and one of them is difficulty in finding decent work at a decent salary. For example there are a lot of teaching jobs going all over the country BUT most are not well paid, a lot are in crazy timetables, some are paid under the table and the marority are for 9 months of the year. Great for a young traveller; not so great for a head of family.

Going back to what I said about consequences across the board, what advice is to be given to someone coming here with children who are looking for a better life? Will their children really have better prospects here? What will public spending be looking like in a few years time?

(Briefly, I don't believe Rajoy for one moment that we are moving out of the crisis. It seems to me that Spanish politicians are ready to make the same mistakes all over again. It looks like a high percentage of unemployment is going to be accepted as the norm. It has been reported recently that the gap between the haves and have nots has grown more in Spain than in any other European country. Despite all this, IMHO a child from a family with a stable income and a supportive homelife can have a great upbringing in Spain. Acquiring another language is only beneficial. Many young people leave their country of origin to work by choice and this is what's happening all over Europe so British immigrants should maybe expect that their children will work overseas)


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## xabiaxica

I totally expect that my older daughter will leave Spain for work, partly due to the unemployment situation but also because she has itchy feet. 
That shouldn't really surprise me though, since both I and her dad were the same!


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> As you say, occasionally you find someone who does make a go of it. However this partnership sounds a long way from the majority of enquiries we get here asking about bar/ restaurant businesses. They have found something different to offer, and somehow have made it work. It sounds like they have a good knowledge of the area and also like they don't have dependants.
> 
> As I said in a previous post there are,_ of course _people who come here to work and are successful, but in a country with such high unemployment you've got to expect consequences all across the board and one of them is difficulty in finding decent work at a decent salary. For example there are a lot of teaching jobs going all over the country BUT most are not well paid, a lot are in crazy timetables, some are paid under the table and the marority are for 9 months of the year. Great for a young traveller; not so great for a head of family.
> 
> Going back to what I said about consequences across the board, what advice is to be given to someone coming here with children who are looking for a better life? Will their children really have better prospects here? What will public spending be looking like in a few years time?
> 
> (Briefly, I don't believe Rajoy for one moment that we are moving out of the crisis. It seems to me that Spanish politicians are ready to make the same mistakes all over again. It looks like a high percentage of unemployment is going to be accepted as the norm. It has been reported recently that the gap between the haves and have nots has grown more in Spain than in any other European country. Despite all this, IMHO a child from a family with a stable income and a supportive homelife can have a great upbringing in Spain. Acquiring another language is only beneficial. Many young people leave their country of origin to work by choice and this is what's happening all over Europe so British immigrants should maybe expect that their children will work overseas)


I agree with all that. For many reasons, Spain is a really good place to bring up children, as you say, given that there is a stable income...and I think that stability matters perhaps even more than income level, although that's important too. During the worst period of the crisis, many German Mittelstand firms put their employees on shorter hours, with lower wages temporarily, but at least with a job when the order books started filling again, as they did. Employees had security albeit with reduced income, employers retained their skilled workforce.

I think it was your good self that pointed out that even pre-2008 Spain had an unemployment rate hovering around the 7 -8%. Spain's problems are structural, too much reliance on construction and tourism, not enough investment in training and new green technologies. Tourism is fickle and we all know what happened with construction. A big problem is Spain's public debt, largely accrued to pay for unemployment and a massive private debt, again down to construction. 

It's all very well for Parties like Podemos and other left groups to call for a refusal to pay what they see as 'bad debts', or even to suggest a moratorium. Countries that renege on their debts pay more for borrowing, if they can get credit at all. There are some facts that the public may find hard to take but they are facts nonetheless, facts such as that during the boom years, Spain's wages rose three times the rate of wages of German workers yet Spanish productivity actually decreased. A lifestyle fuelled by cheap credit has to be paid for.

There is a world of dreams and hopes and a real world. Of course we should never stop planning - not just hoping - for a better world. But you start from where you are, not where you'd like to be. Marx didn't say many things I agree with now I'm older and hopefully wiser but the truest thing of all was 'You start from where you are, not where you would like to be'. Where we are now is not a good place. As yet I have not seen or heard from any leading politician a feasible plan for reform of the current neo-liberal economic model. Talk of revolution is pie in the sky. I've heard that sort of talk from certain quarters ever since I started out in politics in the 1960s. It's good people wasting their energy and effort on a cause lost before it's begun.

I'm hoping Sanchez can produce a practical raft of proposals for real reform. Our local branch is formulating a plan to match the JdA's spend on job creation schemes if elected next May.


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## Williams2

mrypg9 said:


> There will always be people who find work, well-paid 'nice' work. There are people in certain professions, mainly in the more highly paid IT sector or the financial sector who see the world as their job market.
> My son and dil combine the two sectors as they work in the City in IT in finance. They have friends who work in Germany, the Middle East, the States, the Far East and some whose work involves travelling to various countries. My son has considered working in Switzerland or Dubai as casually as I would have thought of working in London or Birmingham, more casually, in fact.
> So it's inevitable that some people with transferable and sought-after skills will find rewarding and well-paid work in Spain.


Being in IT - I beg to differ that everyone in IT are well paid. While ( of course )
there will be some with the 'sought after skills' who are earning the mega-bucks but
like all IT skill sets, they become old hat after a year or two. Such is the shelf life
of a number of them, in the face of fast evolving technology. For example
Mobile handset technology.
Also there is no such thing as a safe and secure job in the UK, that went out a 
generation ago.

Still you have raised the case for those Expats who will find work here in Spain
and IT is the big one - as there are a number of companies in Spain looking out
for people with the right skill sets. With Online gambling technology being one
of those that grabs the headlines ( yes I know PartyPoker.com etc are based
in Gib ) but most of the workforce that manage their systems servers, etc
commute from Spain.
Also rarely a month goes by without some Cisco Network Operations Centre
in Southern Spain, crying out for Network engineers with the usual Cisco &
TCP/IP skillsets and certifications, namely CCNA, CCNP, CCIE you name it,
they need it, working shifts in a NOC.

Also, strange but true - legacy systems skill sets are very much in demand in
Spain - yes the IBM Mainframe is very much alive and well and enjoying a come
back, here in sunny Spain.
Mainframes what's that ? - didn't I see them in The Man from Uncle and the
Harry Palmer Spy film - the Billion Dollar Brain ?
Yes they were ubiquitous before the advent of Micro computers and PC technology.
No self-respecting business, corporation or NORAD defence systems would
be without a Mainframe computer to do all the number crunching. Although many
organisations have made way for Wintel, Unix and other distributed server 
systems. The Banks, Building Societies, Life and Asset management companies,
as well as The Met Office still use mainframes. 
In fact the UK's Met Office wouldn't trust weather forecasting to a PC, Wintel or
Unix servers - only the biggest and best Supercomputer mainframes like the
Cray have the capability to project evolving weather systems for The Met Office.


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## Horlics

Very true, but it's also easy to spot the next hot thing in IT and make sure you're onto it. The ones with the 'sought after skills' don't arrive in that situation by accident, they saw it coming and put themselves there.



Williams2 said:


> Being in IT - I beg to differ that everyone in IT are well paid. While ( of course )
> there will be some with the 'sought after skills' who are earning the mega-bucks but
> like all IT skill sets, they become old hat after a year or two.


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## mrypg9

Horlics said:


> Very true, but it's also easy to spot the next hot thing in IT and make sure you're onto it. The ones with the 'sought after skills' don't arrive in that situation by accident, they saw it coming and put themselves there.


That seems to be the mindset that has kept my son in lucrative employment for the past couple of decades. Look for the next thing...very much so. He's gone from disaster recovery (leading a team repairing major faults in IT systems in large financial organisations) to now doing something involving setting up customer satisfaction measuring in a large energy company
It's a whole new way of looking at work, well it was to me anyway. When I started work, decades before IT was a fact of life, you basically got employed and that was that....It wasn't until the last decade or so of my working life the idea caught on that professional development might actually be quite a good idea and that you could learn something from training courses and that they weren't just an excuse to get out of the office/classroom for the day. I had colleagues who had worked for forty years in the same workplace, doing the same thing, totally resistant to new ideas or techniques. In those days unless you did something dreadful like assaulted someone or came to work drunk -although sometimes that was covered up - you had a job for life regardless of your actual level of competence. 
In a way, I'm glad I'm out of it all now as there's no doubt that a lot more pressure is on people in work at all levels...performance reviews, target setting, personal development plans, weekly performance assessment meetings with department heads, all the add-ons of the modern workplace. And of course, since few people have a job for life anymore, the worry about actually keeping a job.
I used to snort with derision when some bright young thing earnestly told us that we must be 'flexible' and 'adaptable' to be successful in the workplace of the twenty-first century. Maybe it's the Luddite in me...But it does seem that certain qualities, of which the most important seems to be the ability to use those skills you have and adapt to new challenges, are what keeps you in the game these days.
I retired a long time before the current retirement age but I could feel the symptoms of burn-out approaching. The idea that people should work until almost seventy seems preposterous.


----------



## Pokerface

I´m new here so I´d like to say hello to everyone. :wave:
An interesting thread with a nice mix of "do it" v "don´t do it" so I thought I´d put my penneth in.
I´ve been living in Spain for four years and drove here not knowing what to expect. At the time I spoke no Spanish, but having had enough of the UK, I left my job and decided to hit the road. 
On arriving in Spain I was working within a month, full time, in a job so far removed from my own profession I was firmly placed back on the bottom rung of the ladder. Long hours and a pay cheque I found confusing. Confusing in the sense that I didn´t know if it was even possible to live on €1k per month!
This job was an okay stop gap before opening my own business. Two years later the business is going well and I´m loving living here in Spain. The thought of ever returning to the UK is a very dark thought!
The point I´m getting to is simple. Spain has an awful lot to offer, but people need to set realistic horizons. No, you won´t earn salaries like in the UK, but you won´t need salaries like in the UK.
There are business opportunities but you absolutely have to understand the business you´re thinking of going into. People forget the Spanish are experts in running bars and cafés, so if your back ground is plumbing, don´t even think about opening a café!
There are plenty of Xpats in need of a good plumber though!
Too many people seem to arrive on these shores thinking life will be easy. It isn´t! But it is beautiful, and if you´re well prepared, it has a lot more to offer than the UK.


----------



## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> In a way, I'm glad I'm out of it all now as there's no doubt that a lot more pressure is on people in work at all levels...performance reviews, target setting, personal development plans, weekly performance assessment meetings with department heads, all the add-ons of the modern workplace. And of course, since few people have a job for life anymore, the worry about actually keeping a job.
> I used to snort with derision when some bright young thing earnestly told us that we must be 'flexible' and 'adaptable' to be successful in the workplace of the twenty-first century. Maybe it's the Luddite in me...But it does seem that certain qualities, of which the most important seems to be the ability to use those skills you have and adapt to new challenges, are what keeps you in the game these days.
> I retired a long time before the current retirement age but I could feel the symptoms of burn-out approaching. The idea that people should work until almost seventy seems preposterous.


I must be an (unrepentant) Luddite because I found all that intensely irritating and nothing more than a hindrance to productivity (what with the things you mentioned plus all the 'elf and safety stuff (risk assessments for people to do things like operate a photocopier, COSHH assessments, et al) and project management which seemed to consist of little more than constant and quite unnecessary meetings to "identify KPIs" and "risk factors" it was a wonder one could get any work done at all.

I wondered whether we just had all this visited upon us in the public sector but my brother, who works in IT for a large multi-national, tells me it's just the same there and it drives him crazy too.


----------



## mrypg9

Pokerface said:


> I´m new here so I´d like to say hello to everyone. :wave:
> An interesting thread with a nice mix of "do it" v "don´t do it" so I thought I´d put my penneth in.
> I´ve been living in Spain for four years and drove here not knowing what to expect. At the time I spoke no Spanish, but having had enough of the UK, I left my job and decided to hit the road.
> On arriving in Spain I was working within a month, full time, in a job so far removed from my own profession I was firmly placed back on the bottom rung of the ladder. Long hours and a pay cheque I found confusing. Confusing in the sense that I didn´t know if it was even possible to live on €1k per month!
> This job was an okay stop gap before opening my own business. Two years later the business is going well and I´m loving living here in Spain. The thought of ever returning to the UK is a very dark thought!
> The point I´m getting to is simple. Spain has an awful lot to offer, but people need to set realistic horizons. No, you won´t earn salaries like in the UK, but you won´t need salaries like in the UK.
> There are business opportunities but you absolutely have to understand the business you´re thinking of going into. People forget the Spanish are experts in running bars and cafés, so if your back ground is plumbing, don´t even think about opening a café!
> There are plenty of Xpats in need of a good plumber though!
> Too many people seem to arrive on these shores thinking life will be easy. It isn´t! But it is beautiful, and if you´re well prepared, it has a lot more to offer than the UK.


Your dog is very handsome!
Out of interest, did you come to Spain with a family?


----------



## Pokerface

mrypg9 said:


> Your dog is very handsome!
> Out of interest, did you come to Spain with a family?


Thank you. I love him!
I came to Spain with my girlfriend (now wife) and my dog. Not having kids allowed me to take the giant leap of faith I perhaps otherwise wouldn´t have been able to.


----------



## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> I must be an (unrepentant) Luddite because I found all that intensely irritating and nothing more than a hindrance to productivity (what with the things you mentioned plus all the 'elf and safety stuff (risk assessments for people to do things like operate a photocopier, COSHH assessments, et al) and project management which seemed to consist of little more than constant and quite unnecessary meetings to "identify KPIs" and "risk factors" it was a wonder one could get any work done at all.
> 
> I wondered whether we just had all this visited upon us in the public sector but my brother, who works in IT for a large multi-national, tells me it's just the same there and it drives him crazy too.


We were told that if we wanted to retrieve objects from high shelves we must not stand on chairs but use a ladder. But to use a ladder we had to have Ladder Training.
I was H&S Rep which involved going to training sessions and inspecting the premises for possible dangers to staff...all in working time, of course.
I was also the school's Wellbeing Co-ordinator. Our LEA had a network of Wellbeing Reps and we elected members to a Wellbeing Council. This met each term at County Hall, followed by lunch in the Members' Dining Room (for our wellbeing..).
Each school had a day for Wellbeing, when students stayed at home.. .we were allocated a sum of money to spend on collective activities to do with our wellbeing. 
We could, for example, invite an aromatherapist, or have an inspiring talk from a counsellor about reducing stress levels. 
We Wellbeing Co-ordinators were once asked to find what would most improve staff wellbeing at work and report to our Committee at County Hall. I consulted my staff and they more or less were unanimous that my going to more meetings and not pestering them with silly questions would be a priority.

These things are indeed commonplace everywhere, in public or private enterprises. My dil says it's the same at RBS - God knows they need divine intervention there, not more H&S. At least people coming to work in Spain will find a workplace environment free from this kind of thing, although H &S mustn't be entirely neglected.


----------



## alborino

mrypg9 said:


> These things are indeed commonplace everywhere, in public or private enterprises. My dil says it's the same at RBS - God knows they need divine intervention there, not more H&S.


Are you trying to say RBS is representative of the private sector ?arty:



mrypg9 said:


> At least people coming to work in Spain will find a workplace environment free from this kind of thing, although H &S mustn't be entirely neglected.


Recent experience in non H&S spain: Guy has industrial freezer door land on him. So scared of losing job he some how drags (literally) himself in. His bosses don't give a monkeys. His wife drags (literally) him to A&E. Four weeks on being treated and still under medical orders not to work or do very much at all.

Don't get me wrong I hate meetings and think Spain has many good points but .............................................. 

Just wanted to balance the ship a little  Happy Christmas one and all.


----------



## mrypg9

alborino said:


> Are you trying to say RBS is representative of the private sector ?arty:
> 
> 
> .


No.....as it is over 80% OURS!!!!!!!
As I often remind my obscenely overpaid dil. 
Their habits and practices don't seem to have changed much since we bought it, though.

Yes, you are right, we shouldn't dismiss H&S lightly, I totally agree. Far too many deaths and injuries occur each year in the UK through industrial accidents. Employers should be mindful of their responsibilities.
It works both ways, though. My OH owned a business which involved the use of heavy and potentially dangerous equipment. She provided safety clothing, boots, heavy trousers and jackets, hats, visors...the lot. Yet employees frequently wandered around the shop floor in Nike trainers, welded without protective gear...

A year ago our new gardener said he would cut our palm trees as he had the equipment and experience. Previously we had paid a specialist but our new guy is very competent so we told him to go ahead.
We went out shopping and came back to find him up a tall palm secured only by a rope round his waist. I felt sick when I saw him . I instructed him to descend immediately and never to climb without proper safety equipment. He couldn't understand why I was making such a fuss.
My neighbour's brother was killed when he fell from a palm he was cutting.


----------



## Horlics

It's great to see that you have achieved all this post-2008 crash.

EVERY TIME somebody comes on here suggesting they might make a go of Spain they're told by some that it's a lost cause, no business will work, they're in a queue of 7 million for a job, blah, bollocks, blah....

And here you are showing it can be done.



Pokerface said:


> I´m new here so I´d like to say hello to everyone. :wave:
> An interesting thread with a nice mix of "do it" v "don´t do it" so I thought I´d put my penneth in.
> I´ve been living in Spain for four years and drove here not knowing what to expect. At the time I spoke no Spanish, but having had enough of the UK, I left my job and decided to hit the road.
> On arriving in Spain I was working within a month, full time, in a job so far removed from my own profession I was firmly placed back on the bottom rung of the ladder. Long hours and a pay cheque I found confusing. Confusing in the sense that I didn´t know if it was even possible to live on €1k per month!
> This job was an okay stop gap before opening my own business. Two years later the business is going well and I´m loving living here in Spain. The thought of ever returning to the UK is a very dark thought!
> The point I´m getting to is simple. Spain has an awful lot to offer, but people need to set realistic horizons. No, you won´t earn salaries like in the UK, but you won´t need salaries like in the UK.
> There are business opportunities but you absolutely have to understand the business you´re thinking of going into. People forget the Spanish are experts in running bars and cafés, so if your back ground is plumbing, don´t even think about opening a café!
> There are plenty of Xpats in need of a good plumber though!
> Too many people seem to arrive on these shores thinking life will be easy. It isn´t! But it is beautiful, and if you´re well prepared, it has a lot more to offer than the UK.


----------



## alborino

Horlics said:


> And here you are showing it can be done.


Horlics not sure I see your point? You are saying because someone buys a lottery ticket and wins we should all go buy a few thousand tickets?

Do you know anyone who has done the Spanish thing, failed, and then crawled back home penniless? 

Yes there are posts where we forget to say "ok it might work but the lottery gives better odds"  But most understand the good intention of the posts. And of course we know the very mentally strong, self determined, happy go lucky, unique people will still go ahead. And some, a few, will make a good fist of it.

But at least the warnings may, hopefully, prevent a few life changing disasters.


----------



## Williams2

Horlics said:


> It's great to see that you have achieved all this post-2008 crash.
> 
> EVERY TIME somebody comes on here suggesting they might make a go of Spain they're told by some that it's a lost cause, no business will work, they're in a queue of 7 million for a job, blah, bollocks, blah....
> 
> And here you are showing it can be done.


Yep basically there are jobs available in Spain for those with sought after skill
sets. The most important ones being those with background experience in
Online gambling, IP & Cisco router networking, IT Service desk / Helpdesk where
English language skills are a must.
That said - don't expect UK levels of wages for the above, you will be lucky
if your offered jobs that pay the same salary ( the only difference being it has
the Euro symbol in front of it, instead of the £ sign )
Obviously you will be imparting your knowledge & experience onto your Spanish
colleagues.
Of course the Online Gambling companies might pay more - as their employees are
paid in Gibraltar pounds, no doubt from all the tax they save from being based
in a Gib tax haven.


----------



## mrypg9

Well sai, Alborino. Of course a few will, like you, make good. Some of us have said that.
But one swallow doth not a summer make, as the old saying goes.
And for every success, there could be many more failures.
Many people come on this Forum thinking jobs are there to be plucked like oranges on roadside trees.
That might have to been the case once but it's not so now.
And if people post with a feasible plan, they get encouraged.


----------



## alborino

mrypg9 said:


> Well said, Alborino. Of course a few will, like you


No, No, No ... My economy and now that of two of my spanish family members is in the UK and will remain so for all time.

I came to spain for love, romance, flamenco, culture, fun, booze and food (mainly iberico, merluza and gambas). And the latter is just mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm  Sorry and the love of my live is mmmmm x 10000 as well 

But work in Spain even with my many unique skills and good level of Spanish ... No thanks. Give me blightie any day


----------



## mrypg9

alborino said:


> No, No, No ... My economy and now that of two of my spanish family members is in the UK and will remain so for all time.
> 
> I came to spain for love, romance, flamenco, culture, fun, booze and food (mainly iberico, merluza and gambas). And the latter is just mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm  Sorry and the love of my live is mmmmm x 10000 as well
> 
> But work in Spain even with my many unique skills and good level of Spanish ... No thanks. Give me blightie any day


Sorry, I confused your post with one by Pokerface.
But I'm sure you have all,the attributes needed for success


----------



## Horlics

To your question marks....

1. My point is, the one-size-fits-all advice that it is simply not going to work under any circumstances (which some, but not all, give) is not valid. I remember in particular a gentleman coming on here and explaining that he was going to go to Spain and open a business. He went on to explain that he'd run several businesses in different countries and made a success of them every time. It didn't stop those with nothing like as much experience as him dismissing Spain as a place that nobody can succeed in.

2. No.




alborino said:


> Horlics not sure I see your point? You are saying because someone buys a lottery ticket and wins we should all go buy a few thousand tickets?
> 
> Do you know anyone who has done the Spanish thing, failed, and then crawled back home penniless?
> 
> Yes there are posts where we forget to say "ok it might work but the lottery gives better odds"  But most understand the good intention of the posts. And of course we know the very mentally strong, self determined, happy go lucky, unique people will still go ahead. And some, a few, will make a good fist of it.
> 
> But at least the warnings may, hopefully, prevent a few life changing disasters.


----------



## Horlics

I never argue that the wages and working conditions match those of other locations. I believe many see longer hours as a trade-off for spending what time you do get free on the beach in good weather.

Please understand, it's not a trade-off I would make. I looked into moving to Spain to work and live over a decade ago and gave up on the idea because I didn't like the working hours and I realised that pay was lower than I could earn in the UK and other places.

I am just banging on as I occasionally do about the intense negativity here.



Williams2 said:


> Yep basically there are jobs available in Spain for those with sought after skill
> sets. The most important ones being those with background experience in
> Online gambling, IP & Cisco router networking, IT Service desk / Helpdesk where
> English language skills are a must.
> That said - don't expect UK levels of wages for the above, you will be lucky
> if your offered jobs that pay the same salary ( the only difference being it has
> the Euro symbol in front of it, instead of the £ sign )
> Obviously you will be imparting your knowledge & experience onto your Spanish
> colleagues.
> Of course the Online Gambling companies might pay more - as their employees are
> paid in Gibraltar pounds, no doubt from all the tax they save from being based
> in a Gib tax haven.


----------



## Horlics

Well, a little, but certainly not by all. There are a few here who wouldn't recognise a feasible plan if it weighed 3 tons and fell on them, and they're the ones whose stock answer always includes the words "seven million".

I am not suggesting that all here do this.



mrypg9 said:


> And if people post with a feasible plan, they get encouraged.


----------



## mrypg9

Horlics said:


> To your question marks....
> 
> 1. My point is, the one-size-fits-all advice that it is simply not going to work under any circumstances (which some, but not all, give) is not valid. I remember in particular a gentleman coming on here and explaining that he was going to go to Spain and open a business. He went on to explain that he'd run several businesses in different countries and made a success of them every time. It didn't stop those with nothing like as much experience as him dismissing Spain as a place that nobody can succeed in.
> 
> 2. No.


'Run several businesses all over the world'. Hmm.
Or 'run from'.....?
We shall never know. People often reinvent themselves when they come to Spain or on Forums. I think it was PW who noted a few weeks ago that we really know very little of each other, apart than what we post on this Forum.

I could really be a ninety-year-old wrinkled old peasant with the only internet connection in my remote Azerbaijan village....
Or a voluptuous twenty-something posting from my Monaco apartment, lying in silk sheets being fed grapes by a half-naked handsome Arabian servant....

Seriously, there is a fine line between negativity and realism. I have seen several British businesses - the shop/restaurant type - close down in the time I've been here. And I've yet to meet a British person in business here who has a medium-sized business in anything other than services, with more than a couple of employees, with a solid customer base and a good income and who doesn't spend every hour working. Most Brits who call themselves 'businesspeople' in this area have small shops, cafes/bars and work long hours for little reward. If they think it's worth it, good for them and good luck.
Not my idea of fun in the sun, though.


----------



## Isobella

I have seen a lot of businesses close down too even those who seem fairly busy have closed after about a year. Most have never run a bar/restaurant in the UK so don't know why they think they can crack it in a foreign country. I knew someone who ran an upmarket kitchen shop in San Pedro, was under the impression he was doing well...until he went bust after 2 years.


----------



## Espanada

I quite often read these threads and don't chime in but I feel compelled with this conversation. 

I'd propose that it's quite possible that the conclusions here regarding entrepreneurship in Spain are biased (at least based on what I'm reading)

It sounds to me that, due to economic duress and lack of job opportunities, many expats go to Spain and become entrepreneurs and then fail. And because of this the impression is that it is difficult to succeed in Spain. 

Don't get me wrong, I've spent quite a number of hours researching the _unique_ difficulties of running a small business in Spain, but we also need to be even-handed.

It it difficult to run a small business anywhere, and statistics tell us that *most businesses fail within the first three years irrespective of the country where these businesses exist.* Irrespective of big "L" Location vs small "L" location, location, location.

So, when you take a sample of Joe 'Mom and Pop Brit' who have left the security of their home country and decided to become first time entrepreneurs in a foreign country in difficult economic times, and then see a high percentage of failures in these small businesses... I'd say "yup"

We may see a few points higher failure rate in Spain, because of Spain, but when we start proposing the idea that had all these entrepreneurs been elsewhere they would have found success, well, that may be true in unique cases, but numbers tell us not. Incompetence and lack of experience are the primary reason why businesses fail.


----------



## Williams2

Horlics said:


> I never argue that the wages and working conditions match those of other locations. I believe many see longer hours as a trade-off for spending what time you do get free on the beach in good weather.
> 
> Please understand, it's not a trade-off I would make. I looked into moving to Spain to work and live over a decade ago and gave up on the idea because I didn't like the working hours and I realised that pay was lower than I could earn in the UK and other places.
> 
> I am just banging on as I occasionally do about the intense negativity here.


Well I for one - haven't been negative about the prospects of moving and working
in Spain. Of course my examples concern salaried employees and contractors in
IT. Also if you browse some other threads - you will find a number of people with
a game plan for being 'gamefully employed in Spain' a recent example being the
web designer who's got a 'game plan' for working in Spain for cleint's based in
the UK.

Nevertheless - emigrating from one country to live and work in another country is
a step not to be taken lightly, and the advice as always is. Do your own research.

Also don't forget Spain doesn't have such generous and tax advantageous, savings
an investment schemes as the UK. So don't expect a Spanish equivalent of SIPPS
and ISA's.


----------



## Lynn R

I don't know if there are any figures available regarding the failure rate of new businesses in Spain. I've certainly seen more than a few appear and then disappear within fairly short order during my 8 years here - but also many more who were around when I first arrived and still are today. Even a few British owned ones which have survived the Crisis (indeed some of them were started in 2008 or after but are still here). Examples which spring to mind are two hotels with restaurants, a couple of restaurants, a car repair and servicing business, an air conditioning and heating engineer, food stores, beauty salons and hairdressers.

Yes, they are quite small concerns which don't have a lot of employees - but it surprised me to learn that over 95% of all private companies in the UK are now classed as micro-companies (those with between 0 and 9 employees). 


Half of UK start-ups fail within five years - Telegraph

If the position were quite so bleak as some paint it, it is a wonder we who live here can still find places to buy food, things for our homes, cars, clothes, gadgets, etc with little difficulty. You'd think we should all be waiting in Soviet style queues for hours to get a loaf of bread from the only place in town left standing.


----------



## Pokerface

Lynn R said:


> I don't know if there are any figures available regarding the failure rate of new businesses in Spain. I've certainly seen more than a few appear and then disappear within fairly short order during my 8 years here - but also many more who were around when I first arrived and still are today. Even a few British owned ones which have survived the Crisis (indeed some of them were started in 2008 or after but are still here). Examples which spring to mind are two hotels with restaurants, a couple of restaurants, a car repair and servicing business, an air conditioning and heating engineer, food stores, beauty salons and hairdressers.
> 
> Yes, they are quite small concerns which don't have a lot of employees - but it surprised me to learn that over 95% of all private companies in the UK are now classed as micro-companies (those with between 0 and 9 employees).
> 
> 
> Half of UK start-ups fail within five years - Telegraph
> 
> If the position were quite so bleak as some paint it, it is a wonder we who live here can still find places to buy food, things for our homes, cars, clothes, gadgets, etc with little difficulty. You'd think we should all be waiting in Soviet style queues for hours to get a loaf of bread from the only place in town left standing.


A point well made Lynn R.
Interesting how the blame seems to lie squarely at the feet of Tax systems and lack of willingness of banks to lend money, yet small businesses in the UK are given approx 80-90k head start with VAT. Something that would prove a huge help for new business here in Spain!


----------



## alborino

I think we are talking at cross purposes here. I'm sure if we got together face to face we would all agree.

We may see expat businesses working but we would need to know a great deal about the founders before comparing them with the people who come on an open forum and ask for example "What do you think will be good business to run there?". 

There are people who come to Spain with business experience, defined talents, a business idea which inspires them, contacts, language skills,; or at least a fair number of those.

There are however a majority that post briefly here who clearly don't have even an idea and have done zero research.

But figures just to show there is sound reasons to warn badly equipped foreigners entering the spanish marketplace.

In 2008 there was as we all know a global hitch. That year Spain's business failure rate went up 178% Ireland 113%, Portugal 67%, and the UK just 31%.

But for sure the resilience of the market is only one of many measures but most EU graphs have Spain not looking pretty. Of course with 25%+ unemployment more spaniards are likely to have a crack at a business start up than in other countries which have much lower unemployment.

So yes we could wax lyrical about statistics. But with the other factors of language and lack of preparation I hope the alarm bells will keep ringing. I also don't honestly believe that if someone is a well prepared entrepreneur that us warning them off on this forum will stop them 

That's me done. Last call. Must runnn :elf:


----------



## Espanada

Interesting comments and certainly the impact of 2008 must be taken into consideration.

The thrust of my point is many prospective entrepreneurs are like drivers - everyone thinks they have the tools to be a great one.

but stats in general tell us much the opposite.

I think there is a significant distinction in what 'case' we make:

"Don't move to Spain because prospects here of self employment in this country are so dire you're bound to work long hours, have little income and ultimately stand a very good chance of failure"

vs

"Take consideration about starting a business at any point in life, especially if your goal is the 'easy life' professional commitment with long hours on the beach and time in the sun. As a new entrepreneur you're bound to work long hours, have little income and ultimately stand a very good chance of failure" 

Long hours, little income, much risk and adversity and a high chance of failure IS describing the entrepreneurial experience.

Anything else is not reality in Spain or anywhere.


----------



## mrypg9

Many people start businesses in the UK simply because they have no choice, there may be few attractive other employment options in their area. The Government encourages these start-ups as it keeps the unemployment figures down.
Most are doomed to fail for the usual reasons: lack of experience, inadequate capital, no customer base...
Alborino has as usual summed up succinctly: people with business experience, capital, a good business plan, market research done, don't usually come on Forums asking advice from people who may themselves have had no experience of owning or running a business.


----------



## mrypg9

Espanada;
. Incompetence and lack of experience are the primary reason why businesses fail.[/QUOTE said:


> You forgot an equally - or perhaps more important factor - luck, chance, whatever you like to call it.
> Businesses obviously don't exist in a vacuum. They are dependent on many factors other than the competence and experience of the entrepreneur. If the economy tanks, your business may also suffer a decline. Very few businesses are immune from an economic downturn with the consequent lack of consumer purchasing power.
> National and local tax increases can also have a severe negative effect on a business struggling to survive.
> Then your business may be dependent on contract clients who for reasons totally unconnected with the quality of service your business delivers may take their contract elsewhere. We had a contract client with £six figure turnover for our company. The client decided to move their operation to the Midlands. Fortunately this was not a mortal blow, which it might well have been for some companies, as we had other contracts as well as 'passing trade'.
> Illness and accident can have serious consequences for small and medium-sized businesses. One of our key employees had to take a lot of time of work as he had a very sick child in a London hospital. again, we were fortunate in that we had others who could cover for him.
> Then there's the dreaded cash flow.....we had customers, usually big companies, who would wait weeks before paying a large invoice. Sometimes these late payers were themselves in difficulty.
> Then there's getting or extending credit from your bank, something that in the UK at least has not been easy of late.
> So whilst competence and experience are important, more is often needed to prosper in business. We came across a lot of incompetent business owners who were able to keep going sometimes because of their loyal capable employees, sometimes through sheer luck.
> When we packed up our business we were aware that many other smaller businesses would suffer because we were no longer trading with them...our smaller local suppliers, even the roadside burger van where our guys got their fry-ups each day.
> 
> We often hear people righty saying that hard work, experience, competence and so on will bring success. But you also need to have Lady Luck smiling on you.


----------



## Espanada

Certainly, 'luck' or thereabouts is important, but I see that as the other side of "risk". Integral to being a business owner is risk, being comfortable with risk, and understanding that odds say you may fail.

I find it interesting that "don't move it's risky" is said. Risk is par for the course. I know business owners in Madrid who are killing it (young Spaniards)... and it's not a "lottery ticket" situation. They don't, contrary to what some might think, feel that the Machiavellian government is intentionally trying to undermine them at every hurdle. They're hard working, strategic, prudent, responsible and maybe a little lucky. They embrace risk.

But I do agree with you Mrypg9, and I'm a young business owner who has been learning these lessons over the last 6 years, with much more to learn.

I can, however, say with some confidence that long hours, hard work, little money (at times) and all that adversity also happens to exist outside of Spain too!

It's too easy to just blame Spain.


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## Pesky Wesky

Just coming in here without having read all the previous posts, so apologies if I step on anyone's toes, but 2 things strike me.
Am i seeing those words "negative" or "negativity" again. I'm fed up to the proverbial back teeth of being told that a realistic opinion is a negative opinion and being more or less told it isn't allowed. I write about what I know and see.
Also there is a lot of writing about the UK, and setting up a business there. It seems to me that the comparison is not vey useful or valid ie chalk and cheese


----------



## mrypg9

Espanada said:


> Certainly, 'luck' or thereabouts is important, but I see that as the other side of "risk". Integral to being a business owner is risk, being comfortable with risk, and understanding that odds say you may fail.
> 
> I find it interesting that "don't move it's risky" is said. Risk is par for the course. I know business owners in Madrid who are killing it (young Spaniards)... and it's not a "lottery ticket" situation. They don't, contrary to what some might think, feel that the Machiavellian government is intentionally trying to undermine them at every hurdle. They're hard working, strategic, prudent, responsible and maybe a little lucky. They embrace risk.
> 
> But I do agree with you Mrypg9, and I'm a young business owner who has been learning these lessons over the last 6 years, with much more to learn.
> 
> I can, however, say with some confidence that long hours, hard work, little money (at times) and all that adversity also happens to exist outside of Spain too!
> 
> It's too easy to just blame Spain.



Well, of course you're right. Luck plays an important role in all aspects of life and if we weren't aware that the best laid plans of men gang oft awry, as the poet says, we'd never leave the house
In the UK we've seen long-established companies, some household names, go under in the past few years. Their demise was more because of the downturn in demand caused by either changes in customer choice or to the economic situation generally.
Sometimes the demise is due to new developments in technologies.

I don't think anyone here is 'blaming Spain' although it's obviously more difficult to start a new business or prosper with an existing one when the economy is in such a poor state. What posters have focused on is the lack of business experience and general preparedness that seems to characterise many posters who enquire about starting a business. Many people want to live in Spain, realise that they don't stand a cat's chance in hell of finding permanent employment so fall back on the notion that they can start their own business. That's not the best reason for wanting to go it alone, as I'm sure you'd agree.

Yes, risk is endemic to any business venture. But - and this is an important 'but' - some people are more able to cope with risk than others. As I said in my previous post, our company was able to withstand and survive what for others could have been a death blow. There are many things to ponder on when considering your ability to cope with risk: ability to access capital, your family situation and there is at the bottom of it all the 'Is it worth it? ' question.

My partner owned and ran the businesses. I had a full-time professional salaried employment. Although my job was demanding and at times stressful I know who had the easiest working life out of the two of us. It wasn't my OH which is why one day she said 'I've had enough of all this' and we closed down, sold up and left the UK three months later to start on our journey which eventually led us to Spain.

Seasons Greetings everyone


----------



## The Skipper

[quote Originally Posted by *Williams2*
Also don't forget Spain doesn't have such generous and tax advantageous, savings
an investment schemes as the UK. So don't expect a Spanish equivalent of SIPPS
and ISA's.[/quote]

Spain does have a very tax advantageous investment scheme. We have investments in Luxembourg within an insurance wrapper with no tax charged on growth and only a small deduction on withdrawals, all approved by the Hacienda. Have a word with Blevins Franks, the financial advisors, who have a number of offices in Spain.


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## alborino

The Skipper: Nothing against your recommendation but you would have to be a substantial investor to want to pay for their services.

ISAs for example are for smaller investors who want to build over time or even simply guard a small next egg. ISAs in the UK remove all tax reporting/admin which to many is more useful than the tax benefit. And there are funds that are very cheap and very diverse (lower risk) that those not wanting to research investments and risk levels can choose. 

I don't think spain offers anywhere near the offerings of the UK, or the same protection, or the same tax benefits. 

But each to their own.


----------



## Williams2

Pesky Wesky said:


> Just coming in here without having read all the previous posts, so apologies if I step on anyone's toes, but 2 things strike me.
> Am i seeing those words "negative" or "negativity" again. I'm fed up to the proverbial back teeth of being told that a realistic opinion is a negative opinion and being more or less told it isn't allowed. I write about what I know and see.
> Also there is a lot of writing about the UK, and setting up a business there. It seems to me that the comparison is not vey useful or valid ie chalk and cheese


I for one haven't been negative - of course the thread has moved onto people
trying to set up business or be self-employed in Spain.


----------



## Williams2

alborino said:


> The Skipper: Nothing against your recommendation but you would have to be a substantial investor to want to pay for their services.
> 
> ISAs for example are for smaller investors who want to build over time or even simply guard a small next egg. ISAs in the UK remove all tax reporting/admin which to many is more useful than the tax benefit. And there are funds that are very cheap and very diverse (lower risk) that those not wanting to research investments and risk levels can choose.
> 
> I don't think spain offers anywhere near the offerings of the UK, or the same protection, or the same tax benefits.
> 
> But each to their own.


Your right:
ISA's and SIPPS were introduced in the UK to encourage people to save ( these
being the replacement to TESSA's and PEPS ) under a tax free wrapper.
Your right - they are aimed at middle income people with ( in the case of SIPPS )
the goal to setup a nice Private Pension, either by voluntary contributions, consolidating
various company pension scheme's or both, with the govt adding some extra depending
on your level of income, etc.
With the good old days ( jobs for life ) gone, something was needed to fill the
void and at the same time encourage people to save rather than spend during
their working lives.

Of course Spain doesn't offer any such schemes and to tell you the truth, I
was quite shocked to find that many Spanish companies ( correct me if I'm
wrong ) don't offer company pension schemes to their employees.


----------



## Lynn R

Williams2 said:


> Of course Spain doesn't offer any such schemes and to tell you the truth, I
> was quite shocked to find that many Spanish companies ( correct me if I'm
> wrong ) don't offer company pension schemes to their employees.


Could this be related, at least in part, to the fact that the Spanish state pension is related to the level of social security contributions paid, rather than a flat rate regardless of how much has been paid in NI as the UK state pension is? 

I've recently transferred my former free standing AVC personal pension pot into a SIPP, as the original provider wouldn't offer a flexible drawdown arrangement (in spite of the recent changes introduced by the Government) and I didn't wish to be forced to buy a poor value annuity with it.

Stock market linked pension schemes are all very well unless your retirement date happens to coincide with a period of heavy losses - when it's just your hard luck, I suppose.


----------



## Williams2

Lynn R said:


> Could this be related, at least in part, to the fact that the Spanish state pension is related to the level of social security contributions paid, rather than a flat rate regardless of how much has been paid in NI as the UK state pension is?
> 
> I've recently transferred my former free standing AVC personal pension pot into a SIPP, as the original provider wouldn't offer a flexible drawdown arrangement (in spite of the recent changes introduced by the Government) and I didn't wish to be forced to buy a poor value annuity with it.
> 
> Stock market linked pension schemes are all very well unless your retirement date happens to coincide with a period of heavy losses - when it's just your hard luck, I suppose.


Could you live off the State Pension alone - whether it be UK or Spanish ?
I assume those who can save for their retirement in Spain buy a portfolio
apartments to rent out in Spain, relying on the rental income to bolster their
State Pension upon retirement.


----------



## Lynn R

Williams2 said:


> Could you live off the State Pension alone - whether it be UK or Spanish ?
> I assume those who can save for their retirement in Spain buy a portfolio
> apartments to rent out in Spain, relying on the rental income to bolster their
> State Pension upon retirement.


I certainly couldn't live off the UK State Pension - although people who only have the Basic State Pension or don't have enough qualifying years even for that are better provided for than people who are in that position in Spain.

However, everything I have read on the subject suggests that the average state pension in Spain is a much higher proportion of their final earnings, and the maximum state pension achievable is over €36,000 per annum (although someone would have been paying extremely high SS contributions to clock up that much so obviously it only relates to the most highly paid). So if someone can retire on, say, an amount equivalent to 70% of their previous earnings, which is guaranteed and not subject to the vagaries of the stock market, I can kind of see why fewer people or companies would bother with additional pension schemes. Of course employers' social security contributions are much higher here, too, so again they'd be much less likely to contribute to a separate company pension scheme for their employees in addition to that.

Even those final salary public sector pension schemes in the UK - often described as gold plated - only provide for a pension equal to half one's final salary, after all (and for more recent entrants they have been changed to career average schemes anyway).


----------



## The Skipper

alborino said:


> The Skipper: Nothing against your recommendation but you would have to be a substantial investor to want to pay for their services.
> 
> ISAs for example are for smaller investors who want to build over time or even simply guard a small next egg. ISAs in the UK remove all tax reporting/admin which to many is more useful than the tax benefit. And there are funds that are very cheap and very diverse (lower risk) that those not wanting to research investments and risk levels can choose.
> 
> I don't think spain offers anywhere near the offerings of the UK, or the same protection, or the same tax benefits.
> 
> But each to their own.


Fair point. The fees are high but you have to look at the net result. In our case I doubt that we could get such a tax advantageous investment plan under UK law. And another thing ... before becoming a fiscal resident of Spain the UK government used to tax my pension. In Spain, I can legally split my pension 50-50 with my wife which puts us under the tax threshold. All in all I favour the Spanish tax system but obviously it depends on your personal circumstances.


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## Expatliving

I said to my brother (18 months older) "I'm off to Spain, no mortgage, 100k in the bank and enjoying my post 50 years". He said? "I'm thinking about doing something like that when I retire" (68) ... 15 years time, if you're lucky mate and got your health? Enjoy life now.

Always makes me chuckle how so many people have been conned into believing that they must continue working for UK PLC until retirement, did you know that the UK government is registered as a PLC?


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## The Skipper

Williams2 said:


> Could you live off the State Pension alone - whether it be UK or Spanish ?
> I assume those who can save for their retirement in Spain buy a portfolio
> apartments to rent out in Spain, relying on the rental income to bolster their
> State Pension upon retirement.


My Spanish neighbour, a retired road construction foreman, told me that he has a State pension of €1,600 a month. Another Spanish friend, a retired chef, told me that his State pension is about the same. I have 40 years contributions into the UK NI system and was a higher rate taxpayer for most of my working life but will be lucky to receive anywhere near half of this when I reach 65.


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## Williams2

The Skipper said:


> My Spanish neighbour, a retired road construction foreman, told me that he has a State pension of €1,600 a month. Another Spanish friend, a retired chef, told me that his State pension is about the same. I have 40 years contributions into the UK NI system and was a higher rate taxpayer for most of my working life but will be lucky to receive anywhere near half of this when I reach 65.


This is very interesting Skip and begs further investigation - particularly for those
Expats who started their 'working life' in the UK - built up the minimum number
of National Insurance contributions to get the full UK State Pension upon
retirement age but have decided to live & work in Spain ( therefore have spent
the rest of their working lives contributing to the Spanish State Pension )

Think I'll start a new thread called - Are Working British Expats better off moving to Spain
to get the higher State Pension ?


----------



## Williams2

Pesky Wesky said:


> Just coming in here without having read all the previous posts, so apologies if I step on anyone's toes, but 2 things strike me.
> Am i seeing those words "negative" or "negativity" again. I'm fed up to the proverbial back teeth of being told that a realistic opinion is a negative opinion and being more or less told it isn't allowed. I write about what I know and see.
> Also there is a lot of writing about the UK, and setting up a business there. It seems to me that the comparison is not vey useful or valid ie chalk and cheese



Just for Pesky - here's a nice positive video - from those who took the plunge to live in Spain and work in Gib.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Espanada said:


> I think there is a significant distinction in what 'case' we make:
> 
> "Don't move to Spain because prospects here of self employment in this country are so dire you're bound to work long hours, have little income and ultimately stand a very good chance of failure"
> 
> vs
> 
> "Take consideration about starting a business at any point in life, especially if your goal is the 'easy life' professional commitment with long hours on the beach and time in the sun. As a new entrepreneur you're bound to work long hours, have little income and ultimately stand a very good chance of failure"
> 
> Long hours, little income, much risk and adversity and a high chance of failure IS describing the entrepreneurial experience.
> 
> Anything else is not reality in Spain or anywhere.


Yes, that's true and that's why I find it difficult to believe that quite a large number of enquiries received on the forum are people with no experience in the field they wish to set up their business, little or no knowledge of the country, and little or zero language competence. And they still expect life to be easier by virtue of the fact that they are coming to Spain.
If someone comes in with a well thought out idea AND know something about Spain (I mean that they have been here enough to know they like the country and could settle here) AND have finances sorted out, they may stand a chance. BUT personally I would say that although long hours, reduced income and hard work is always expected for a new entrepreneur, I'd say even more so in Spain IF things are done legally.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Williams2 said:


> Just for Pesky - here's a nice positive video - from those who took the plunge to live in Spain and work in Gib.
> 
> 
> A nice positive video with lots of Sunshine for a change


I don't know why it's especially for me, but the video does a great job of selling Gibraltar. It almost makes me want to go there! I did a transcript of an interview with Fabian Picardo, a Gibraltanian politician earlier on in the year talking about the gaming industry in Gib, and yes, it's booming. I can't really fathom why the companies have to offer such amazing packages to people to relocate there though. Maybe not many people want to work in the gaming industry. I certainly wouldn't. Nor why they don't recruit Spaniards. There are so many unemployed now that surely there are qualified people with the right language skills? 
Anyway, I can understand why some young Brits would want to take up these opportunities, and if you've got the right skills set it seems to be the place to be.


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't know why it's especially for me, but the video does a great job of selling Gibraltar. It almost makes me want to go there! I did a transcript of an interview with Fabian Picardo, a Gibraltanian politician earlier on in the year talking about the gaming industry in Gib, and yes, it's booming. I can't really fathom why the companies have to offer such amazing packages to people to relocate there though. Maybe not many people want to work in the gaming industry. I certainly wouldn't. Nor why they don't recruit Spaniards. There are so many unemployed now that surely there are qualified people with the right language skills?
> Anyway, I can understand why some young Brits would want to take up these opportunities, and if you've got the right skills set it seems to be the place to be.


Gibraltar is like Blackpool on heat and the gaming industry is a boil on the backside of capitalism!:behindsofa:

Seriously, I can't think anyone would want to spend more than a couple of years working there. If you actually lived there, renting a decent place to live would take a chunk out of your salary. Most people with jobs there seem to rent in Spain and do a daily commute, which must add hours to your working day, especially when the border police guys decide to play silly ******s and cause two or three hour delays in crossing, even for pedestrians.

We used to do a quick in/ out trip to Morrisons chiefly to get Sandra's Quorn but stopped since the border delays began. We did spend a day there once when we had to visit our bank and we were not impressed. I thought it was tacky. Disappointing really as I imagined there would be loads of posh shops..but there's lots of H Samuel- type jewellers and pubs selling warmish beer.

But sobre los gustos and all that...


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## Justina

Not sure about Blackpool on heat, the only day I went, a Sunday, it was utterly depressing. The Rock was just an enormous block of stone and we walked across a bit of the airfield and then a few tatty Brit shops, Evans being one. I did buy my **** at a cheaper price, but would hardly go that far for a box of ciggies. The rest just seemed to be large apartment blocks all huddled together and even a modest sandwich and coffee cost more than in la linea.
There was a point made sometime ago in the newspapers that the gambling business makes a fortune and Rajoy would like a slice of it.


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## amespana

Williams2 and pesky we sky, with respect I notice you both live hundreds of of ks from Gibraltar. I am really thinking about how to describe Gib without upsetting a lot of people.Although hundreds of millions may be traded there, nothing is invested in the local infrastructure.The majority of the multimillionaires live on the mainland in their mansions because Gibraltar is such a dump.We often see them lunching in Estepona at the weekends.The feedback I've received from Young British people working in the gaming industry is long hours on different shifts poor money and endless border queues.As for the weather,where we live in Estepona we have an uninterrupted view of Gib,so we also have an uninterrupted view of the heavy cloud that seems to enjoy the Gibraltar Sky.
Otherwise doesn't seem too bad.


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## Roy C

We went to Gibraltar two years ago for the day, I've run out of things to say.


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## amespana

Forgot to mention La linea across the border.There must be a competition with Gibraltar for which is the bigger dump.Only my opinion,no offence.


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## Williams2

amespana said:


> Forgot to mention La linea across the border.There must be a competition with Gibraltar for which is the bigger dump.Only my opinion,no offence.


Hey - me & Pesky are only looking at the advantages for people that work in Gib
but not necessarily live in Gib. No doubt those that can, commute from
Spain. Also- it wouldn't surprise me that a number of Gib commuters don't have an
arrangement to 'shack up' in the apartment of a co-worker living in Gib, during the
working week ( eg those working shifts ) like I know some commuters do who
work in London.

Also none of the 'Gib knockers' are questioning the fact that the Rock provides
welcome employment to the surrounding area's of Spain and therefore many
Spaniards are also benefiting from the jobs in Gib, whether in the gaming business
or elsewhere.


----------



## mrypg9

Williams2 said:


> Hey - me & Pesky are only looking at the advantages for people that work in Gib
> but not necessarily live in Gib. No doubt those that can, commute from
> Spain. Also- it wouldn't surprise me that a number of Gib commuters don't have an
> arrangement to 'shack up' in the apartment of a co-worker living in Gib, during the
> working week ( eg those working shifts ) like I know some commuters do who
> work in London.
> 
> Also none of the 'Gib knockers' are questioning the fact that the Rock provides
> welcome employment to the surrounding area's of Spain and therefore many
> Spaniards are also benefiting from the jobs in Gib, whether in the gaming business
> or elsewhere.


The fact that Gib provides employment,albeit mainly low-paid,for thousands of Spaniards cannot be denied.
That the gaming industry adds little if anything to the social good also cannot be denied.
That Gibraltar as a place is crowded, polluted, tacky and rather brash and vulgar also cannot be denied.
But then its prosperity is based on low or no tax regimes.


----------



## alborino

mrypg9 said:


> The fact that Gib provides employment,albeit mainly low-paid,for thousands of Spaniards cannot be denied.
> That the gaming industry adds little if anything to the social good also cannot be denied.
> That Gibraltar as a place is crowded, polluted, tacky and rather brash and vulgar also cannot be denied.
> But then its prosperity is based on low or no tax regimes.


Mary I think you are missing William's point. He is asking about a theoretical person who is obsessed by money. Such a person wouldn't mind working in a cesspit.

But just to wave a little flag for Gib it is all the things you say but it is also heaving with history and lovely apes. So despite it's negatives still worth a visit for a day or two. 

But like you I don't need to go back as I get my tea bags and mature cheddar cheese by airdrop :eyebrows:


----------



## mrypg9

alborino said:


> Mary I think you are missing William's point. He is asking about a theoretical person who is obsessed by money. Such a person wouldn't mind working in a cesspit.
> 
> But just to wave a little flag for Gib it is all the things you say but it is also heaving with history and lovely apes. So despite it's negatives still worth a visit for a day or two.
> 
> But like you I don't need to go back as I get my tea bags and mature cheddar cheese by airdrop :eyebrows:


We now get our Quorn that way, thanks to dil's regular visits.

Yes, I'm sure you're right and that there is a lot more to Gib than I'm willing to see. And I admit I am prone to violent and probably irrational prejudices against places, Gib, Blackpool and Scandinavia being high on the list.

Gambling is the only vice I don't have, hence my dislike of it.


----------



## Williams2

mrypg9 said:


> We now get our Quorn that way, thanks to dil's regular visits.
> 
> Yes, I'm sure you're right and that there is a lot more to Gib than I'm willing to see. And I admit I am prone to violent and probably irrational prejudices against places, Gib, Blackpool and Scandinavia being high on the list.
> 
> Gambling is the only vice I don't have, hence my dislike of it.


Ok attention all Expats & Spaniards reading this forum - when gauging opinions
of said 'Gib knockers' about the job prospects in Southern Spain bordering Gib - please be
aware that Gibraltar is Persona non Grata and therefore your unlikely to get
a true picture of the job opportunities in this area.


----------



## mrypg9

Williams2 said:


> Ok attention all Expats & Spaniards reading this forum - when gauging opinions
> of said 'Gib knockers' about the job prospects in Southern Spain bordering Gib - please be
> aware that Gibraltar is Persona non Grata and therefore your unlikely to get
> a true picture of the job opportunities in this area.


I neither know nor care about job opportunities in Gibraltar as I'm not looking for work of any kind anywhere. My comments relate to the place itself, as do the comments of others. 

But I will say that the kind of salaries often mentioned by people here don't seem to me to be so fabulously high, not when everything is taken into account. I have always included time spent travelling to and from my workplace as part of my working day and to be included when considering salary and conditions. So having to add a minimum of two hours to the time spent at work in addition to the actual working hours would be a definite no-no for me.
But it depends on your remuneration, I guess. I have a friend whose husband works in the financial -not gaming - sector and whose salary is a good six figures and who has therefore been able to buy a small apartment in Gib in which he lives during the week, returning to his Spanish villa in the hills above Estepona at weekends. This undoubtedly gives him many advantages both tax-wise and regarding the education of his son as he attends a school in Gib, thus avoiding the expense of school fees in Spain.
I would say that for a person with the usual IT skills Gib would be a good place to work for a couple of years, living in Spain and commuting. But as a place of residence it has imo little to recommend it which is perhaps why the super-wealthy have a pied-a-terre for tax purposes but choose to reside elsewhere.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Williams2 said:


> Hey - me & Pesky are only looking at the advantages for people that work in Gib
> but not necessarily live in Gib. No doubt those that can, commute from
> Spain. Also- it wouldn't surprise me that a number of Gib commuters don't have an
> arrangement to 'shack up' in the apartment of a co-worker living in Gib, during the
> working week ( eg those working shifts ) like I know some commuters do who
> work in London.
> 
> Also none of the 'Gib knockers' are questioning the fact that the Rock provides
> welcome employment to the surrounding area's of Spain and therefore many
> Spaniards are also benefiting from the jobs in Gib, whether in the gaming business
> or elsewhere.


 I've never been to Gib, but I must say it really doesn't look like my kind of place and it certainly is not on my list of places to go. The only reason I've ever mentioned it on the forum is because it does look like a place that has a lot of jobs for people who work in certain sections of IT, and it looks like you could work there and not need to know Spanish.


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> I've never been to Gib, but I must say it really doesn't look like my kind of place and it certainly is not on my list of places to go. The only reason I've ever mentioned it on the forum is because it does look like a place that has a lot of jobs for people who work in certain sections of IT, and it looks like you could work there and not need to know Spanish.


There was a piece on Radio 4 'Today' about Gib. Apparently First Minister Picardo is urging the Queen to visit next year as part of her Malta trip. That should rattle Rajoy's cage. I remember the massive display of British flags, bunting and other patriotic paraphernalia when the Foreign Secretary visited a couple of years ago. (I think it was William Hague). I'd never seen anything like it.

It was also pointed out on the Today piece that all these super-patriotic Gibraltarians speak Spanish as their first language!

There was also a reference to the sixteen year long blockade, when Franco literally locked the gates in 1969. They weren't opened until 1985. Families were separated and thousands of Spaniards left without their work on the Rock. We all know about the Berlin Wall but few know about the Gibraltar blockade. A Gibraltarian friend lent me a video about that time, it was heart-breaking. Families divided, shouting to each other, holding up babies, just like Berlin. So perhaps not unsurprising that there is such fierce attachment to Britain and hostility to Spain.

In the last referendum, over 98% chose to remain 'British'. Much as I dislike the place, if that's what people want. Self-determination shouldn't be just for non-whites.
And of course Spain has Melilla and Ceuta....


----------



## Chopera

mrypg9 said:


> There was a piece on Radio 4 'Today' about Gib. Apparently First Minister Picardo is urging the Queen to visit next year as part of her Malta trip. That should rattle Rajoy's cage. I remember the massive display of British flags, bunting and other patriotic paraphernalia when the Foreign Secretary visited a couple of years ago. (I think it was William Hague). I'd never seen anything like it.
> 
> It was also pointed out on the Today piece that all these super-patriotic Gibraltarians speak Spanish as their first language!
> 
> There was also a reference to the sixteen year long blockade, when Franco literally locked the gates in 1969. They weren't opened until 1985. Families were separated and thousands of Spaniards left without their work on the Rock. We all know about the Berlin Wall but few know about the Gibraltar blockade. A Gibraltarian friend lent me a video about that time, it was heart-breaking. Families divided, shouting to each other, holding up babies, just like Berlin. So perhaps not unsurprising that there is such fierce attachment to Britain and hostility to Spain.
> 
> In the last referendum, over 98% chose to remain 'British'. Much as I dislike the place, if that's what people want. Self-determination shouldn't be just for non-whites.
> And of course Spain has Melilla and Ceuta....


I'm pretty sure someone in Gibraltar could have got into Spain back then, and vice versa, just not through the direct border crossing.

Also I wonder how British the Gibraltarians would want to be if the UK didn't offer them large tax breaks in return for parking the occasional nuclear submarine there? Self determination is one thing, but we're talking about a population less than the average gate at a Premiership football match here.


----------



## jimenato

That's interesting. What tax breaks does the UK give Gibraltarians?


----------



## Chopera

jimenato said:


> That's interesting. What tax breaks does the UK give Gibraltarians?


The UK offers Gibraltar the chance to set it's own very generous tax system (I'm sure you are aware of it) while its citizens enjoy the protection (both military and legal) of being British citizens.


----------



## jimenato

Ok - so they have their own tax regime as befits a self-governing territory - hardly the same as being given 'large tax breaks.'

The answer to your 'wonder' is that Gibraltarians are incredibly loyal to the UK - it has nothing to do with being 'given tax breaks'. There probably is no concrete reasoning behind this loyalty - but if there is, it's Spain's insistence that should the UK give up Gibraltar it would immediately revert to being Spanish. If it were not for that I suspect Gibraltar would consider becoming independent. 

Bit surprising that you think that self determination should be dependent upon population size. 

Finally, i have seen much more than just 'the occasional nuclear submarine' alongside.


----------



## Chopera

jimenato said:


> Ok - so they have their own tax regime as befits a self-governing territory - hardly the same as being given 'large tax breaks.'
> 
> The answer to your 'wonder' is that Gibraltarians are incredibly loyal to the UK - it has nothing to do with being 'given tax breaks'. There probably is no concrete reasoning behind this loyalty - but if there is, it's Spain's insistence that should the UK give up Gibraltar it would immediately revert to being Spanish. If it were not for that I suspect Gibraltar would consider becoming independent.
> 
> Bit surprising that you think that self determination should be dependent upon population size.
> 
> Finally, i have seen much more than just 'the occasional nuclear submarine' alongside.


I'm not suggesting they'd chose to be part of Spain instead, although it does seem strange that the likes of Fabian Picardo and Peter Caruana are happy to live in their luxury mansions in Marbella/Sotogrande for just under 6 months each year. Obviously they like living in Spain, but not enough to pay taxes there.


----------



## mrypg9

Chopera said:


> I'm not suggesting they'd chose to be part of Spain instead, although it does seem strange that the likes of Fabian Picardo and Peter Caruana are happy to live in their luxury mansions in Marbella/Sotogrande for just under 6 months each year. Obviously they like living in Spain, but not enough to pay taxes there.


Do they?? So do they commute to their workplaces for six months of the year?

I don't think it matters why the people of Gibraltar want to remain British, the fact is that they do. The majority of the people living there aren't multi-millionaires anyway. Tbh, I was quite surprised the first time I visited to find that as a whole the place was was so tacky and that the populace wasn't dressed in Dior or Versace and dripping with diamonds....far from it.
If we are prepared to accept self-determination for other peoples, then surely the same principle should apply to the Gibraltarians and the Falkland Islanders too, although that seems not to be the case for some on the Left where it seems skin colour matters when determining these things.
Neither you nor I would most probably wish to live in either of those places but there are quite a few who do and I can't see why their motives for preferring to be British matter. Perhaps in the last century they preferred British democracy, however imperfect, so Franco's authoritarian rule? Folk memory and all that....


----------



## mrypg9

Incidentally, it's unwise to bring 'British Imperialism' into any discussion on Gibraltar. Quite apart from the question of Ceuta and Melilla, it's often forgotten that Spain, like Britain, had an Empire, one which, arguably , was administered with more cruelty and avarice than the British Empire at its worst.
Under the Conquistadores, whole South American civilisations disappeared and Christianity was spread by fire and the sword....literally.


----------



## alborino

mrypg9 said:


> Incidentally, it's unwise to bring 'British Imperialism' into any discussion on Gibraltar. Quite apart from the question of Ceuta and Melilla, it's often forgotten that Spain, like Britain, had an Empire, one which, arguably , was administered with more cruelty and avarice than the British Empire at its worst.
> Under the Conquistadores, whole South American civilisations disappeared and Christianity was spread by fire and the sword....literally.


I remember my old mate Jose in Madrid in the eighties saying "But you guys got rid of your empire and most stayed friends, we left ours hating us". I guess if the brits left anything good behind it has to be cricket and the idea of fair play although these days that is diminishing with professionalism and commerciality taking over.

But still in our village games in Hampshire the batsman generally walks if he knicked it and if he doesn't it costs him in the bar after


----------



## mrypg9

alborino said:


> I remember my old mate Jose in Madrid in the eighties saying "But you guys got rid of your empire and most stayed friends, we left ours hating us". I guess if the brits left anything good behind it has to be cricket and the idea of fair play although these days that is diminishing with professionalism and commerciality taking over.
> 
> But still in our village games in Hampshire the batsman generally walks if he knicked it and if he doesn't it costs him in the bar after


Ah....that brings back fond memories of watching cricket on village greens...

We are first and foremost football fans but enjoy watching most sports (except darts) and even got drawn into watching boxing once....We thought we ought to start watching cricket on tv this year. The one sport we just don't get is rugby.

While I'm chuntering, off-topic as is my wont, best wishes to everyone for a very happy New Year 2015.  Alas we cannot take up the invites to celebrations as our usually brave big boy Azor is terrified of fireworks, quivers like jelly, even with sedatives so for the past seven years we've celebrated quietly, at home.
But the pleasure of having him -and Xena - with us more than compensates for nights out .


----------



## jimenato

Perhaps you might enjoy women's rugby more Mary? England are World cup holders after a fine competition thus year - well worth watching.

We won't be out tonight as I have a stinking cold.


----------



## mrypg9

Women's rugby. No, don't think so, Simon.:female groping appeals as little as male groping..

Happy New Year to you both, come and stay with us when you come to Spain xx


----------



## Justina

*Rugby*



mrypg9 said:


> Women's rugby. No, don't think so, Simon.:female groping appeals as little as male groping..
> 
> Happy New Year to you both, come and stay with us when you come to Spain xx


Ha ha. My brother was obliged to play rugby in the winter and cricket in the summer and while he disliked the cricket he abhorred the scrum and generally faffing around with rugby.


----------



## Lynn R

Justina said:


> Ha ha. My brother was obliged to play rugby in the winter and cricket in the summer and while he disliked the cricket he abhorred the scrum and generally faffing around with rugby.


I like rugby (Union) - purely as a spectator. My Dad was a good player in his younger days, County level, and as a little girl he used to take me with him on home match days and they would sit me on top of the piano in the clubhouse with a packet of crisps and a bottle of lemonade. He captained his local First XV for years, played prop forward (at 6' 6" and 17 stone he had the build for it). Many happy memories of watching the big games on TV with him when he got older, with the late Bill McClaren commentating.

Cricket is like watching paint dry by comparison, although my OH likes it.


----------



## Isobella

Cricket is ok. If you aren't very sporty as it is more social than other spectator sports. Used to enjoy sitting in a deck chair with a glass of wine and a gossip maybe I am old-fashioned but I don't like the gear they wear now. They look like a bunch of garage mechanics, found the whites and cable jumpers attractive.


----------



## jimenato

We're supposed to be going to the rugby today - Bristol against Plymouth at Ashton Gate.

But I've got flu (she says it's only a cold).

I'll drag myself there somehow - those tickets were expensive.


----------



## mrypg9

Isobella said:


> Cricket is ok. If you aren't very sporty as it is more social than other spectator sports. Used to enjoy sitting in a deck chair with a glass of wine and a gossip maybe I am old-fashioned but I don't like the gear they wear now. They look like a bunch of garage mechanics, found the whites and cable jumpers attractive.


Agree with you 100% I feel the same way about tennis gear.
Mind you, our mechanics were all kitted out in very smart uniforms, navy sweatshirts with company logo with navy trousers in winter, T-shirts in summer and baseball caps, with jackets to match.

Do Spaniards play cricket?


----------



## alborino

mrypg9 said:


> Do Spaniards play cricket?


Mary Madrid Cricket Club was formed in 1975. There's even Spanish women playing.

Over Christmas the most recent Duke of wellington died being replaced by his son. It was the Duke (the son's great, great, great, great, great, great, grandad if I've counted correctly) who finished off Napolean who's men first played cricket in Spain.

One day the whole world will realise that there is only one true religion and that is cricket


----------



## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> I like rugby (Union) - purely as a spectator. My Dad was a good player in his younger days, County level, and as a little girl he used to take me with him on home match days and they would sit me on top of the piano in the clubhouse with a packet of crisps and a bottle of lemonade. He captained his local First XV for years, played prop forward (at 6' 6" and 17 stone he had the build for it). Many happy memories of watching the big games on TV with him when he got older, with the late Bill McClaren commentating.
> 
> Cricket is like watching paint dry by comparison, although my OH likes it.


My son and family are very keen on rugby and spend many cold afternoons either at Twickenham or watching grandsons play. I just don't understand what the game is actually about.


----------



## jimenato

Some of us tried to get a game of cricket going in Jimena. 

We managed to rustle up a bat and a ball, one pad and no stumps but I'm sure we could have sorted that out. Jimena being build on the side of a mountain, a pitch was a problem

We never managed it but I would have loved to - can you imagine the reaction of the Spanish to the mad English people?


----------



## Williams2

alborino said:


> Mary Madrid Cricket Club was formed in 1975. There's even Spanish women playing.
> 
> Over Christmas the most recent Duke of wellington died being replaced by his son. It was the Duke (the son's great, great, great, great, great, great, grandad if I've counted correctly) who finished off Napolean who's men first played cricket in Spain.
> 
> One day the whole world will realise that there is only one true religion and that is cricket


Yes your right alborino, it wasn't 'very sporting' of Napoleon to turn on he's Spanish allies
and try to incorporate them into he's Empire. Definitely not cricket, no wonder they turned
to the British for help.


----------



## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> Some of us tried to get a game of cricket going in Jimena.
> 
> We managed to rustle up a bat and a ball, one pad and no stumps but I'm sure we could have sorted that out. Jimena being build on the side of a mountain, a pitch was a problem
> 
> We never managed it but I would have loved to - can you imagine the reaction of the Spanish to the mad English people?


Especially when you tell them a cricket match can go on for several days....


----------



## Expatliving

mrypg9 said:


> Especially when you tell them a cricket match can go on for several days....


Even 20/20 games can go on for an eternity ... :boxing:


----------



## jimenato

mrypg9 said:


> Especially when you tell them a cricket match can go on for several days....


... and likely as not still end in a draw.


----------



## Lynn R

jimenato said:


> ... and likely as not still end in a draw.


At least it doesn't take that long for paint to dry.

How was the match, did you enjoy it in spite of being virtually at death's door?


----------



## jimenato

Lynn R said:


> At least it doesn't take that long for paint to dry.
> 
> How was the match, did you enjoy it in spite of being virtually at death's door?


Bristol won by a huge margin scoring 9 tries. They are heading for the premiership. Trouble is even if they win the league they still have to play in a play off final and could lose that - they did last year.

I enjoyed it in spite of having dreadful flu or actually what I suspect is just a heavy cold.


----------



## Chopera

mrypg9 said:


> Do they?? So do they commute to their workplaces for six months of the year?


Neither of us know what their exact movements are, but the point is they seem happy enough to own property and spend time living in Spain.

This is Picardo's villa in Sotogrande (He has another in Benahavis apparently):










It's not your typical lock-up-and-go that you use for a few weeks each year.




mrypg9 said:


> I don't think it matters why the people of Gibraltar want to remain British, the fact is that they do. The majority of the people living there aren't multi-millionaires anyway. Tbh, I was quite surprised the first time I visited to find that as a whole the place was was so tacky and that the populace wasn't dressed in Dior or Versace and dripping with diamonds....far from it.
> If we are prepared to accept self-determination for other peoples, then surely the same principle should apply to the Gibraltarians and the Falkland Islanders too, although that seems not to be the case for some on the Left where it seems skin colour matters when determining these things.
> Neither you nor I would most probably wish to live in either of those places but there are quite a few who do and I can't see why their motives for preferring to be British matter. Perhaps in the last century they preferred British democracy, however imperfect, so Franco's authoritarian rule? Folk memory and all that....





jimenato said:


> ...
> 
> Bit surprising that you think that self determination should be dependent upon population size.
> 
> ...


There various reasons why, for example, I can't buy a plot of land in Spain tomorrow and declare it the "Independent State of Chopera", population: my family, declare it a tax free state, demand to maintain my British nationality, while at the same time nipping across the "border" to Spain to do a bit of shopping now and then, and using other services available in Spain. I think most people would accuse me of behaving selfishly and be quite happy to see the Guardia Civil come round and knock on my door. If I then used my "right to self determination" as my defence I think most people would tell me to shove it. 

I'm not saying the above is an analogy to Gibraltar, far from it, but it does illustrate why it is important to ask why people want self determination, and also why the population size demanding self determination is important.


----------



## Chopera

mrypg9 said:


> Agree with you 100% I feel the same way about tennis gear.
> Mind you, our mechanics were all kitted out in very smart uniforms, navy sweatshirts with company logo with navy trousers in winter, T-shirts in summer and baseball caps, with jackets to match.
> 
> Do Spaniards play cricket?


There are 2 cricket teams I know of in Madrid, but I doubt if they have that many Spaniards, the problem they have is finding a pitch to play on.

Rugby is much bigger, with the Spanish Federation organising mens and womens leagues at both a national and regional level.


----------



## mrypg9

Chopera;6084874
.
I'm not saying the above is an analogy to Gibraltar said:


> That begs questions, though.
> Who or rather, which power, has the moral or indeed any right to ask these questions?
> Did anyone 'ask' India why it wanted self-determination? Or Kenya? or any of the now independent states of former Empires?
> The motives for wanting self-determination are, I would say, cultural rather than material, but of course economic benefit would play its part. The liberation struggles in nearly all former colonies were focused on economic gains self-determination would bring - the outstanding case I guess being the colonial revolt in America in the eighteenth century.
> Freedom to trade and export indigenous raw materials played a major role in India's struggle for independence.
> There's something a tad paternalistic and imperialist even about the idea of the U.K. or Spain deciding whether or not any community deserves self-determination. The right to choose how and by whom you are ruled is a fundamental freedom.
> I can't see what population size has to do with it either. Should smaller areas n the U.K. have the right to vote withdrawn? And again, who decides?
> No. If self-determination is good enough for the hundreds of now independent states formerly colonies of European empires it's good enough for the people of Gibraltar.
> The peoples of these states asked for the freedom to choose their own government, as did the people of the Falklands and Gibraltar.
> There is of course also the point that Gibraltar was granted U.K. sovereignity under an international treaty, no matter how long ago.
> Some people dislike Gibraltar for the same reason they dislike Germany....in a world with many problems, both are comparatively prosperous. There is a lurking feeling that they don't really deserve it, especially in the case of Germany.
> But just because both are white and wealthy (a few of the inhabitants being the latter), we can't say that basic human rights as guaranteed in the U.N. Charter don't apply to them.


----------



## Pokerface

mrypg9 said:


> Incidentally, it's unwise to bring 'British Imperialism' into any discussion on Gibraltar. Quite apart from the question of Ceuta and Melilla, it's often forgotten that Spain, like Britain, had an Empire, one which, arguably , was administered with more cruelty and avarice than the British Empire at its worst.
> Under the Conquistadores, whole South American civilisations disappeared and Christianity was spread by fire and the sword....literally.


Try telling that to the people of Ireland! You might have your head removed and displayed upon a spike, over a bridge crossing the Lee river in Cork! Something the Brit´s did to the Irish by way of instilling fear.
I´m not sure how that sort of behaviour can be considered "better" than that of other empires?
Furthermore, I´m not sure how any of this translates to making a case against emigrating to Spain? :confused2:


----------



## jimenato

Chopera said:


> There are 2 cricket teams I know of in Madrid, but I doubt if they have that many Spaniards, the problem they have is finding a pitch to play on.
> 
> Rugby is much bigger, with the Spanish Federation organising mens and womens leagues at both a national and regional level.


Spain (men) competed in the Rugby World Cup in 1999 - they didn't do very well. There are over 50,000 registered players. They are currently rated 21st in the world.

The women's team originally competed in the 6 nations until they were swapped for Italy to match the men's competition. They have competed in 5 WRWCs coming 4th in 1991.

There are 200 women's rugby clubs in Spain.


----------



## Alcalaina

Pokerface said:


> Try telling that to the people of Ireland! You might have your head removed and displayed upon a spike, over a bridge crossing the Lee river in Cork! Something the Brit´s did to the Irish by way of instilling fear.
> I´m not sure how that sort of behaviour can be considered "better" than that of other empires?
> Furthermore, I´m not sure how any of this translates to making a case against emigrating to Spain? :confused2:


Well, she did say "arguably". There are many more equally vicious examples of British imperialism. Getting the Chinese hooked on opium was a particularly nice one.

Of course a country's past, however gory, shouldn't affect our decision on whether it is a good place to live now. More important is it's current human rights record and the way it treats minorities. Spain scores pretty high on both counts in my book.


----------



## Pokerface

jimenato said:


> Spain (men) competed in the Rugby World Cup in 1999 - they didn't do very well. There are over 50,000 registered players. They are currently rated 21st in the world.
> 
> The women's team originally competed in the 6 nations until they were swapped for Italy to match the men's competition. They have competed in 5 WRWCs coming 4th in 1991.
> 
> There are 200 women's rugby clubs in Spain.


LOL Jimenato. I think there must be a few around here. I see their grey haired Mothers trundling back from the market with five bags of fruit and veg in each hand. I can only imagine how strong their daughters are!


----------



## mrypg9

Pokerface said:


> Try telling that to the people of Ireland! You might have your head removed and displayed upon a spike, over a bridge crossing the Lee river in Cork! Something the Brit´s did to the Irish by way of instilling fear.
> I´m not sure how that sort of behaviour can be considered "better" than that of other empires?
> Furthermore, I´m not sure how any of this translates to making a case against emigrating to Spain? :confused2:


My father's family came from Cork. A century or more ago my grandmother emigrated to England. Unlike the citizens of the empire of King Leopold of the Belgians or the subjects of the Spanish Kings and Queens she was able to leave her colony.
I think the case for emigrating to Spain -or not - has been made very many times over the years. And tbh, anyone who decides yes or no on the basis of what they read on this Forum needs urgent help!


----------



## Isobella

Empires! What about the Romans then


----------



## Derek H

Isobella said:


> Empires! What about the Romans then


"What did he Romans ever do for us"

Sorry! In my defence, no one answered my question on practicing how to say R, as in "Perro"

Derek


----------



## alborino

Isobella said:


> Empires! What about the Romans then


Isobella what did the Romans ever do for us? 

Reg: All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
PFJ Member: Brought peace?
Reg: Oh, peace? SHUT UP! 

ps Derek you beat me to it


----------



## Derek H

alborino said:


> Isobella what did the Romans ever do for us?
> 
> 
> ps Derek you beat me to it


Gotcha ! 
Now, about my other post :boxing:

Derek


----------



## jimenato

Chopera said:


> Neither of us know what their exact movements are, but the point is they seem happy enough to own property and spend time living in Spain.
> 
> This is Picardo's villa in Sotogrande (He has another in Benahavis apparently):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not your typical lock-up-and-go that you use for a few weeks each year.


Not sure how much you know about Sotogrande. Most of the place is a ghost town most of the year with huge villas (that one looks like a tiddler) only used for occasional holidays. What with the difficulties of getting in and out of Gibraltar at the moment, and it would be the same for him as for anybody, I very much doubt that he uses it on a regular basis.

Many Gibraltarians spend a lot of time in Spain - why shouldn't they? I do as well - I love it. I don't see why that should be relevant to the status of Gibraltar any more than it is to the status of England. The point is that Gibraltarians don't hate Spain nor the Spanish - they just don't want to be part of it and that, for the time being, means remaining British.



Chopera said:


> There various reasons why, for example, I can't buy a plot of land in Spain tomorrow and declare it the "Independent State of Chopera", population: my family, declare it a tax free state, demand to maintain my British nationality, while at the same time nipping across the "border" to Spain to do a bit of shopping now and then, and using other services available in Spain. I think most people would accuse me of behaving selfishly and be quite happy to see the Guardia Civil come round and knock on my door. If I then used my "right to self determination" as my defence I think most people would tell me to shove it.
> 
> I'm not saying the above is an analogy to Gibraltar, far from it, but it does illustrate why it is important to ask why people want self determination, and also why the population size demanding self determination is important.


Your story is so far from being analogous to the situation re. Gibraltar that it's not relevant.


----------



## Alcalaina

jimenato said:


> Not sure how much you know about Sotogrande. Most of the place is a ghost town most of the year with huge villas (that one looks like a tiddler) only used for occasional holidays. What with the difficulties of getting in and out of Gibraltar at the moment, and it would be the same for him as for anybody, I very much doubt that he uses it on a regular basis.
> 
> Many Gibraltarians spend a lot of time in Spain - why shouldn't they? I do as well - I love it. I don't see why that should be relevant to the status of Gibraltar any more than it is to the status of England. The point is that Gibraltarians don't hate Spain nor the Spanish - they just don't want to be part of it and that, for the time being, means remaining British.


So apparently he is one of 6,700 Gibraltarians (nearly a quarter of the population) who have homes on the western CDS. It's hard to see why this upsets the Spanish government, because they must surely be paying their IBI and non-resident taxes. Unless it can be proven that they spend more than 6 months of the year there, and are therefore fiscal residents, it's not really an issue.

But you're wrong that Gibraltarians don't hate Spain. Many of the 10,000 Spanish-speaking residents with Spanish surnames hate Spain with a passion, largely because of Franco's border closure referred to earlier when they were effectively in a seige situation (a bit like west Berlin). 

It's more of a gut reaction than something they've given much thought to. In fact there would be benefits to all sides if we had an open border - only the smugglers would suffer. But until their attitude softens, we are stuck with the ridiculous situation we've got now.


----------



## jimenato

Alcalaina said:


> So apparently he is one of 6,700 Gibraltarians (nearly a quarter of the population) who have homes on the western CDS. It's hard to see why this upsets the Spanish government, because they must surely be paying their IBI and non-resident taxes. Unless it can be proven that they spend more than 6 months of the year there, and are therefore fiscal residents, it's not really an issue.
> 
> But you're wrong that Gibraltarians don't hate Spain. Many of the 10,000 Spanish-speaking residents with Spanish surnames hate Spain with a passion, largely because of Franco's border closure referred to earlier when they were effectively in a seige situation (a bit like west Berlin).
> 
> It's more of a gut reaction than something they've given much thought to. In fact there would be benefits to all sides if we had an open border - only the smugglers would suffer. But until their attitude softens, we are stuck with the ridiculous situation we've got now.


Yep - fair enough. It's probably much more complicated than I said. I was just making the point that I see no dichotomy in Gibraltarians having property in Spain and not wanting to be Spanish.

for clarity...



> their attitude softens


... _whose_ attitude _to what_ softens?


----------



## Williams2

amespana said:


> .As for the weather,where we live in Estepona we have an uninterrupted view of Gib,so we also have an uninterrupted view of the heavy cloud that seems to enjoy the Gibraltar Sky.



So you have an uninterrupted view of Gib !! - That's interesting - How do you fancy being the Paul Revere of the
Expatforum.com Spain by posting - '*The Redcoats are coming*' whenever you see these guy's marching into Spain,
from the Rock.












I'm sure our American cousins living in Spain, would appreciate the 'heads up' - you can just imagine 
the disquiet it's caused, ever since they acquired a cannon -as shown recently on the Channel 5
series - Gibraltar, Britain under the Sun.


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina;
It's more of a gut reaction than something they've given much thought to. QUOTE said:


> Not quite sure how a 'gut reaction' is produced or if it is less worthy than an attitude resulting from thought, really. Thought can often be misleading, gut reactions are often nearer the truth.
> Like most other people, I guess, I was unaware of the border closure and the immense suffering it produced in human terms until I discussed the topic with a Gibraltarian whose family had lived through those times. Compared to the publicity given to the Berlin Wall, that given to the Gibraltar lock-out was minimal, to say the least.
> Frankly, I'm not surprised that so many Gibraltarians have feelings of dislike, even hatred, towards Spain. The present situation at the border doesn't exactly foster a spirit of warm friendship.
> 
> Incidentally, West Berlin wasn't under siege from 1962 until 1989. It was accessible by air, rail and autobahn. I visited in 1986, I think it was. It was however under siege in 1948 when the Soviets closed road and rail access and the population was sustained by the famous air lift by U.S. and British fliers. This was done as retaliation for the establishment of the FRG.
> The Berlin Wall shut off any opportunity for East German citizens to escape their socialist paradise to the 'decadent West'.
> Having visited East Berlin and East Germany I can't say I blame them....


----------



## mrypg9

Williams2 said:


> So you have an uninterrupted view of Gib !! - That's interesting.


Anyone living along the coast up to Malaga I guess would have a clear view of the Rock and the African coast. From the hills above Estepona the lights of Morocco can be seen, not sure which town.
Some days it's so clear you feel you could row over in five minutes.


----------



## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> Yep - fair enough. It's probably much more complicated than I said. I was just making the point that I see no dichotomy in Gibraltarians having property in Spain and not wanting to be Spanish.
> 
> for clarity...
> 
> 
> 
> ... _whose_ attitude _to what_ softens?



Gibraltarians having property and living part-time in Spain is surely no different to Brits, Russians, Scandinavians doing the same... I'm guessing that many Gibraltarians who have homes in Spain have fairly modest family properties. After all, there is a lot of inter-marriage.
The idea that all Gibraltarians are fabulously wealthy is quite wrong, of course. 

As for whose attitude: I would think that's fairly obvious. It wasn't Gibraltar that locked the gates, separated families and put tens of thousands of Spaniards out of work. Neither is it Gibraltar that is causing inconvenience and hardship by creating long queues at the border.
But then a bit of sabre-rattling is helpful at a time when the Spanish economy is in the pits.
As many if not most of the smugglers could be Spanish, perhaps the police could be spending time more profitably in closing down their networks rather than harassing innocent workers.

If Gibraltar wishes to have a favourable tax regime, so be it. I don't remember complaints about Monaco, Andorra, Lichtenstein , San Marino, or the very many far more secretive tax havens. Or the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man.
Or Spain's colonies in North Africa....


----------



## Isobella

Yes, well said. There are also around 5000 Spanish who work in Gibraltar but live in Spain

Many who live in Gibraltar are more Spanish than British, they have been inter-marrying for decades. Infact the citizens of La Linea are not happy about the Spanish authorities current attitude as many have relatives there. Probably one of the few places where Jews and Muslims live together peacefully. 

I think there is a bit of envy too, Gibraltar never had a recession.


----------



## Alcalaina

jimenato said:


> for clarity...
> 
> 
> ... _whose_ attitude _to what_ softens?


Those Gibraltarians' attitude to Spain. Their anti-Spanish feelings are the result of historical events, which prevents them from taking a pragmatic view of the benefits of an open border. It's a similar situation to the Ulster Protestants (though fortunately, less violent).


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Those Gibraltarians' attitude to Spain. Their anti-Spanish feelings are the result of historical events, which prevents them from taking a pragmatic view of the benefits of an open border. It's a similar situation to the Ulster Protestants (though fortunately, less violent).


In a previous post you seemed to have dismissed historical events as having an effect on current thinking, though, at least where empires are concerned.

Don't you think that recent memories of the very real impact of Spanish actions on the lives and livelihoods of many Gibraltarian families might be of more importance to today's Gibraltarians than 'historical eventhttp://www.expatforum.com/expats/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=6092738s'? Or are you describing something which occurred less than fifty years ago as an 'historical event'?
Don't you think that having to queue for an hour or more in hot sun in recent weeks whilst trying to enter Spain to visit relatives might cause Gibraltarians to have less than warm feelings towards Spain?

With respect, you have made a sweeping generalisation about why Gibraltarians dislike Spain (Spain, note, not Spaniards) as we all seem to assume they do.
I doubt the average Gibraltarian gives a toss about true 'historical events', if they even know about anything that happened beyond their grandparents' lifetimes.
Heck, I have intense feelings of dislike myself about Rajoy's Government and his territorial ambitions *(which are as I said I cloak to cover his economic incompetence as he knows damn well that Spain will not get Gibraltar) when I queue for three hours in my car to get to Morrisons to buy a couple of bags of Quorn in hot sun, watching nervously as the needle on the temperature gauge edges up towards the red.

AS Neil Kinnock memorably said to Derek Hatton: 'You can't play politics with people's lives'.
That is what Rajoy's government is doing to the people who live in Gibraltar and the tens of thousands of Spaniards who work there.


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Those Gibraltarians' attitude to Spain. Their anti-Spanish feelings are the result of historical events, which prevents them from taking a pragmatic view of the benefits of an open border. It's a similar situation to the Ulster Protestants (though fortunately, less violent).


So the Gibraltarians should divest themselves of their 'incorrect' thinking.....
How I wonder does one go about doing that?
I'm wondering why they should take a 'pragmatic' view of an open border.
And who is closing this border? Last time I looked it wasn't Gibraltar. Neither was it Gibraltar that locked itself up for sixteen years.

Did you really mean to write: 'Spain's attitude to Gibraltar' in your first sentence?


----------



## mrypg9

Isobella said:


> .
> 
> I think there is a bit of envy too, Gibraltar never had a recession.


I would agree with that. Echoes of criticisms of Germany for its good fortune in having leaders who put the country's and its people's interests first and who pursued a more sensible social market economy whilst the thrifty industrious people turned their backs on the credit card culture that has made Britons the most indebted people on the face of the planet.


----------



## jimenato

Alcalaina said:


> Those Gibraltarians' attitude to Spain. Their anti-Spanish feelings are the result of historical events, which prevents them from taking a pragmatic view of the benefits of an open border. It's a similar situation to the Ulster Protestants (though fortunately, less violent).


:confused2:

I don't know what you mean. :noidea:


----------



## Megsmum

The Skipper said:


> If you are retired and have pension and investment income in GBP you will enjoy a far better standard of living in Spain than you would in the UK. Even when sterling slumped in value a few years ago we still felt better off and, of course, the weather, beaches and mountain scenery are priceless. But to anyone thinking of coming here to work or run a business my advice is: forget it!


true true true

We will have been here a year in February!!

We have a small pension income, BUT we now have no mortgage, Solar and Water paid up front, local taxes negligible.

I LOVE it here, but it has had its moments, if i was to add to that the pressure of having to FIND work be in the old expat standby rentals, holiday accomodation etc, I would be a nut job by now. Instead I find my days full with what I want, like now, persuing the web, sitting in the very warm sunshine, while other half and his best friend are cutting the oak.

So if you are strong enough and willing to sacrifice some things for other things, and you have a REGULAR GUARANTEED income then see no issues

If I had NO INCOME, LOOKING FOR WORK, KIDS, personally i would stay where was, much easier to struggle in a country you know, with a language you speak
.

So as usual it all depends


----------



## Leper

mrypg9 said:


> Gibraltarians having property and living part-time in Spain is surely no different to Brits, Russians, Scandinavians doing the same... I'm guessing that many Gibraltarians who have homes in Spain have fairly modest family properties. After all, there is a lot of inter-marriage.
> The idea that all Gibraltarians are fabulously wealthy is quite wrong, of course.
> 
> As for whose attitude: I would think that's fairly obvious. It wasn't Gibraltar that locked the gates, separated families and put tens of thousands of Spaniards out of work. Neither is it Gibraltar that is causing inconvenience and hardship by creating long queues at the border.
> But then a bit of sabre-rattling is helpful at a time when the Spanish economy is in the pits.
> As many if not most of the smugglers could be Spanish, perhaps the police could be spending time more profitably in closing down their networks rather than harassing innocent workers.
> 
> If Gibraltar wishes to have a favourable tax regime, so be it. I don't remember complaints about Monaco, Andorra, Lichtenstein , San Marino, or the very many far more secretive tax havens. Or the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man.
> Or Spain's colonies in North Africa....


What a good post, certainly the best one of the year so far.


----------



## jimenato

Leper said:


> What a good post, certainly the best one of the year so far.


----------



## Chopera

jimenato said:


> Spain (men) competed in the Rugby World Cup in 1999 - they didn't do very well. There are over 50,000 registered players. They are currently rated 21st in the world.
> 
> The women's team originally competed in the 6 nations until they were swapped for Italy to match the men's competition. They have competed in 5 WRWCs coming 4th in 1991.
> 
> There are 200 women's rugby clubs in Spain.


Spanish rugby is good up until university age. A few years ago I saw a Madrid u17 selection compete on levels terms against a touring New South Wales u17 selection. The problem starts at university: since they often only have 1 team per university it is hard to get in and people give up. Also the Spanish selección has a reputation for being based on enchufe. I've seen them play in world cup qualifiers and they were worse than teams I've seen at regional level.


----------



## Chopera

jimenato said:


> Not sure how much you know about Sotogrande. Most of the place is a ghost town most of the year with huge villas (that one looks like a tiddler) only used for occasional holidays. What with the difficulties of getting in and out of Gibraltar at the moment, and it would be the same for him as for anybody, I very much doubt that he uses it on a regular basis.
> 
> Many Gibraltarians spend a lot of time in Spain - why shouldn't they? I do as well - I love it. I don't see why that should be relevant to the status of Gibraltar any more than it is to the status of England. The point is that Gibraltarians don't hate Spain nor the Spanish - they just don't want to be part of it and that, for the time being, means remaining British.
> 
> 
> 
> Your story is so far from being analogous to the situation re. Gibraltar that it's not relevant.


Both Mary and you questioned why population size is relevant to the importance of self determination, and Mary questioned why the reasons for wanting self determination were relevant. Those were general questions, rather than being specific to Gibraltar, and I presented a general case demonstrating why they are important. 

In fact Gibraltar is caught between a rock and a hard place (sorry about that) because not only does it not have a large population, it also has tiny resources. It's not like The Falklands where 3000 odd sheep farmers can be self sufficient. If Gibraltar gained independence they would have to strike up a trade deal with someone pretty quickly, probably involving becoming a tax haven like every other microstate in Europe, or people would leave.


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> In a previous post you seemed to have dismissed historical events as having an effect on current thinking, though, at least where empires are concerned.
> 
> Don't you think that recent memories of the very real impact of Spanish actions on the lives and livelihoods of many Gibraltarian families might be of more importance to today's Gibraltarians than 'historical eventhttp://www.expatforum.com/expats/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=6092738s'? Or are you describing something which occurred less than fifty years ago as an 'historical event'?
> Don't you think that having to queue for an hour or more in hot sun in recent weeks whilst trying to enter Spain to visit relatives might cause Gibraltarians to have less than warm feelings towards Spain?
> 
> With respect, you have made a sweeping generalisation about why Gibraltarians dislike Spain (Spain, note, not Spaniards) as we all seem to assume they do.
> I doubt the average Gibraltarian gives a toss about true 'historical events', if they even know about anything that happened beyond their grandparents' lifetimes.
> Heck, I have intense feelings of dislike myself about Rajoy's Government and his territorial ambitions *(which are as I said I cloak to cover his economic incompetence as he knows damn well that Spain will not get Gibraltar) when I queue for three hours in my car to get to Morrisons to buy a couple of bags of Quorn in hot sun, watching nervously as the needle on the temperature gauge edges up towards the red.
> 
> AS Neil Kinnock memorably said to Derek Hatton: 'You can't play politics with people's lives'.
> That is what Rajoy's government is doing to the people who live in Gibraltar and the tens of thousands of Spaniards who work there.


Sorry, I'm not expressing myself very well.

Irrational hatred is borne of historical events and passed through generations. If you asked a _llanito_ why they don't want to be part of Spain, or why they want to remain British, most of them won't have a sensible answer. It's just something they feel strongly about because their culture determines that they do. Similarly there are Spaniards who strongly believe Gibraltar belongs to Spain, treaty or no treaty.

The present-day border controls and disputes over territorial waters are the result of politicians exploiting these feelings. Most Spaniards are happy to believe Gib is bleeding them of tax revenues and strong measures need to be taken. They vastly outnumber the poor sods who work on the Rock and have to queue to get out. 

Most Brits believe that whenever there is a dispute between Spain and Gibraltar it is invariably Spain's fault. That allows the British government to refuse to negotiate, so they can keep the flag flying on their military base and use it as a dumping ground for nuclear subs etc.

The advantages of some kind of joint governance, a shared airport, Gib becoming part of the European Customs Union, etc etc are surely obvious. But a combination of political expediency and inherited resentment prevent that from happening.


----------



## Isobella

They did have a better relationship under Zapatero, it is Rajoy who sunk it. At one time Iberia were flying into Gibraltar to Madrid, we went for a short trip.


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Sorry, I'm not expressing myself very well.
> 
> Irrational hatred is borne of historical events and passed through generations. If you asked a _llanito_ why they don't want to be part of Spain, or why they want to remain British, most of them won't have a sensible answer. It's just something they feel strongly about because their culture determines that they do. Similarly there are Spaniards who strongly believe Gibraltar belongs to Spain, treaty or no treaty.
> 
> The present-day border controls and disputes over territorial waters are the result of politicians exploiting these feelings. Most Spaniards are happy to believe Gib is bleeding them of tax revenues and strong measures need to be taken. They vastly outnumber the poor sods who work on the Rock and have to queue to get out.
> 
> Most Brits believe that whenever there is a dispute between Spain and Gibraltar it is invariably Spain's fault. That allows the British government to refuse to negotiate, so they can keep the flag flying on their military base and use it as a dumping ground for nuclear subs etc.
> 
> The advantages of some kind of joint governance, a shared airport, Gib becoming part of the European Customs Union, etc etc are surely obvious. But a combination of political expediency and inherited resentment prevent that from happening.


The 'inherited resentment' is surely justified on the part of Gibraltarians who have suffered decades if not centuries of hostility from Spain. The sixteen year lockout occurred less than forty years ago. I wouldn't describe that kind of resentment, hatred, whatever you want to all it, 'irrational'. It seems perfectly rational to me to have at the least a 'strong dislike' for a Government that kept me from my work or my family for years.
I don't think we can speak of 'most' Gibraltarians or 'most' Spaniards. Far too much of a generalisation. The Spaniards I know are either indifferent or see the frequent problems caused chiefly by Spain as distractions to take people's minds off the state of the economy.
What do you see as the 'advantages' of joint governance etc.? The Gibraltarians have made very clear their rejection of 'joint governance'. They don't want it Are their views of no consequence?
Perhaps you underestimate the importance to most people of what you see as unimportant, namely culture, tradition, national allegiance, religion. It is inconvenient to some political theories that these 'unpragmatic' and 'irrational' feelings play such a part in people's lives, something past history and current events show only too well.
Anyway, why on earth would any Gibraltarian want to see Gibraltar as part of Spain? The economy of the Rock is booming, albeit based on activities I don't approve of. But it's not up to us to tell the people of Gibraltar how to run their economy.
And certainly not up to us to deny them the fundamental human right of choosing under which flag they wish to live.


----------



## mrypg9

Isobella said:


> They did have a better relationship under Zapatero, it is Rajoy who sunk it. At one time Iberia were flying into Gibraltar to Madrid, we went for a short trip.


Quite. I think it was Gonzalez who lifted Franco's blockade.
Spain should renounce all claims to Gibraltar. It seems a right-wing neo-Francoist thing, mainly, as my PSOE friends don't think Spain should have any claim.
Why aren't we focusing on Spain's colonies in North Africa? Why single out Gibraltar?

You said earlier that economic jealousy could be a motive. I think that could be the case as I said with the dislike shown by so many to Germany. Both are examples of reasonably successful alternative models of capitalism. 
Then there's dislike of anything connected however remotely with the former Empire.
Now that I would call irrational.....

Incidentally, isn't Gibraltar already linked economically with the EU?


----------



## Chopera

mrypg9 said:


> The 'inherited resentment' is surely justified on the part of Gibraltarians who have suffered decades if not centuries of hostility from Spain. The sixteen year lockout occurred less than forty years ago. I wouldn't describe that kind of resentment, hatred, whatever you want to all it, 'irrational'. It seems perfectly rational to me to have at the least a 'strong dislike' for a Government that kept me from my work or my family for years.
> 
> ...


Compared to what a lot of Spaniards suffered under Franco, being locked out seems a bit of a blessing. What I dislike is the current Spanish government's bullying. For that reason I can understand why Gibraltarians aren't in a hurry to become part of Spain.


----------



## mrypg9

Chopera said:


> Compared to what a lot of Spaniards suffered under Franco, being locked out seems a bit of a blessing. What I dislike is the current Spanish government's bullying. For that reason I can understand why Gibraltarians aren't in a hurry to become part of Spain.


I wouldn't dream of making the comparison. I just think that people who have shown more than once that they don't want to be part of Spain no matter what the Government might be deserve to have their views respected. To want to make them part of Spain or take part in joint governance is a form of imperialism in itself.
If self-determination is good for our former colonies who wanted freedom from Britain the same principle should be extended to those who want to retain that association. I would hate to live in Gibraltar or the Falkland Islands but no way should they be handed over to a government they want no part of.
Relations were undoubtedly more cordial under a PSOE government and no doubt would be if such were elected next year.
But that is no way a foregone conclusion. Spain cannot truly be described as a left-wing country suffering under a right-wing governance it doesn't want. There have always been two Spains, something the more objective historians of the Civil War have recognised. Even the poorest have supported right-wing Parties, as is the case in may countries.
So handing Gibraltar over to be governed by the PP for the foreseeable future is not something to be welcomed.
And it's not off the cards that this could be the case.


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> The 'inherited resentment' is surely justified on the part of Gibraltarians who have suffered decades if not centuries of hostility from Spain. The sixteen year lockout occurred less than forty years ago. I wouldn't describe that kind of resentment, hatred, whatever you want to all it, 'irrational'. It seems perfectly rational to me to have at the least a 'strong dislike' for a Government that kept me from my work or my family for years.
> I don't think we can speak of 'most' Gibraltarians or 'most' Spaniards. Far too much of a generalisation. The Spaniards I know are either indifferent or see the frequent problems caused chiefly by Spain as distractions to take people's minds off the state of the economy.
> What do you see as the 'advantages' of joint governance etc.? The Gibraltarians have made very clear their rejection of 'joint governance'. They don't want it Are their views of no consequence?
> Perhaps you underestimate the importance to most people of what you see as unimportant, namely culture, tradition, national allegiance, religion. It is inconvenient to some political theories that these 'unpragmatic' and 'irrational' feelings play such a part in people's lives, something past history and current events show only too well.
> Anyway, why on earth would any Gibraltarian want to see Gibraltar as part of Spain? The economy of the Rock is booming, albeit based on activities I don't approve of. But it's not up to us to tell the people of Gibraltar how to run their economy.
> And certainly not up to us to deny them the fundamental human right of choosing under which flag they wish to live.


Well you've made my point for me really. All of these entrenched attitudes are what's preventing a resolution - as with other boundary disputes all over the world from Ulster to Palestine. 

And if you can't see the benefits of an airport with equal access from both sides you clearly haven't been bussed off to Málaga when the plane can't land and have to cart your luggage through Customs four times!


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Well you've made my point for me really. All of these entrenched attitudes are what's preventing a resolution - as with other boundary disputes all over the world from Ulster to Palestine.
> 
> And if you can't see the benefits of an airport with equal access from both sides you clearly haven't been bussed off to Málaga when the plane can't land and have to cart your luggage through Customs four times!


The point isn't whether the attitudes are 'entrenched' - not a word I'd use - it's whether they are* justified* that matters. People are irritating, aren't they...they have these deep feelings about things that are so inconvenient.....
And given Spain's current and past behaviour, I would think they are very much justified in holding on to these feelings. 
If I were Gibraltarian who had experienced the lock-out or (lock-in) and the current border inconveniences I would have a strong, justified dislike of the Spanish Government and suspicion of its future behaviour.

I wouldn't simplify issues such as the unity of Ireland or recognition of Palestine as 'border issues'. They are issues which involve centuries of deeply felt emotions connected with culture, religion, history, nationality....all those untidy emotions that are the motivators of much of human conduct and which cannot be reduced to simple political solutions based on what some might consider to be pragmatism or rationality. Human life does not easily submit to having a neat template pasted over it.

And yes, I have been bussed off to Malaga many times when I used to make frequent trips to the UK on Union business. A great inconvenience. A bloody nuisance, in fact.
Personal inconvenience isn't sufficient grounds for handing over an unwilling population to a country it wants no part of, though, is it..


Now...if a poll were held asking the peoples of Ceuta and Melilla if they wanted Spain to get out of Morocco...what do you think the outcome would be?


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> The point isn't whether the attitudes are 'entrenched' - not a word I'd use - it's whether they are* justified* that matters. People are irritating, aren't they...they have these deep feelings about things that are so inconvenient.....
> And given Spain's current and past behaviour, I would think they are very much justified in holding on to these feelings.
> If I were Gibraltarian who had experienced the lock-out or (lock-in) and the current border inconveniences I would have a strong, justified dislike of the Spanish Government and suspicion of its future behaviour.
> 
> I wouldn't simplify issues such as the unity of Ireland or recognition of Palestine as 'border issues'. They are issues which involve centuries of deeply felt emotions connected with culture, religion, history, nationality....all those untidy emotions that are the motivators of much of human conduct and which cannot be reduced to simple political solutions based on what some might consider to be pragmatism or rationality. Human life does not easily submit to having a neat template pasted over it.
> 
> And yes, I have been bussed off to Malaga many times when I used to make frequent trips to the UK on Union business. A great inconvenience. A bloody nuisance, in fact.
> Personal inconvenience isn't sufficient grounds for handing over an unwilling population to a country it wants no part of, though, is it..
> 
> 
> Now...if a poll were held asking the peoples of Ceuta and Melilla if they wanted Spain to get out of Morocco...what do you think the outcome would be?


Again, you are paraphrasing what I've already said. 

Nobody with entrenched attitudes thinks they aren't justified. Hence it's unlikely that anything will ever change.


----------



## jimenato

Alcalaina said:


> Well you've made my point for me really. All of these entrenched attitudes are what's preventing a resolution - as with other boundary disputes all over the world from Ulster to Palestine.
> 
> And if you can't see the benefits of an airport with equal access from both sides you clearly haven't been bussed off to Málaga when the plane can't land and have to cart your luggage through Customs four times!


Ulster and Palestine are boundary disputes? Like Gibraltar is?

The benefits of an airport with access from both sides are obvious - so why have Spain baulked?


----------



## Isobella

Spain stopped flights to and from Gibraltar because of lack of demand. Some interesting bits here under the history section.

Gibraltar International Airport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## gus-lopez

Alcalaina said:


> But you're wrong that Gibraltarians don't hate Spain. Many of the 10,000 Spanish-speaking residents with Spanish surnames hate Spain with a passion, largely because of Franco's border closure referred to earlier when they were effectively in a seige situation (a bit like west Berlin).
> 
> It's more of a gut reaction than something they've given much thought to. In fact there would be benefits to all sides if we had an open border - only the smugglers would suffer. But until their attitude softens, we are stuck with the ridiculous situation we've got now.


Yes I can vouch for the 'utter hatred'of Spain. Nothing will change the views of the Gibraltarians I know , many of whom STILL live in the UK ,having had to leave to find work.
Many I worked with you couldn't even bring up 'Spain' in a conversation without a near riot. :boxing: & the day that one factory manager asked one of my blokes " What part of Spain do you come from Joe ? " :boxing::boxing:Is indelibly printed in my memory !


----------



## Alcalaina

jimenato said:


> Ulster and Palestine are boundary disputes? Like Gibraltar is?
> 
> The benefits of an airport with access from both sides are obvious - so why have Spain baulked?


They are border disputes in the sense that there are people with different beliefs and cultures fighting over where lines are drawn on the map. Of course there are other factors but that's basically what it comes down to - territories, protected by borders, enable people to define themselves as different from their neighbours.

I don't know much about the history of the airport except that it was built by the British on land not included under the Treaty of Utrecht, because it was a swamp and then a leper colony.


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Again, you are paraphrasing what I've already said.
> 
> Nobody with entrenched attitudes thinks they aren't justified. Hence it's unlikely that anything will ever change.


Quite. But nothing you have said implies these attitudes aren't justified. You merely repeat that they are 'entrenched' to which I would reply that they are entrenched precisely *because* they are justified and because they are reinforced on a daily basis by the actions of the Government of Spain.
The people living in Ceuta and Melilla have expressed their wishes to remain Spanish in spite of living in North Africa, another continent. No doubt their attitudes are 'entrenched'.
It's only white western liberals/universalists who don't recognise culture, history,ethnic community, religion, family ties and tradition as being 'entrenched' in people. But people stubbornly cling to attitudes that liberals fail to understand as they don't fit in with a rationalist view of human behaviour and motivation.
Although many people in western Europe are rightly or wrongly feeling their 'way of life' and culture are being threatened by mass immigration or what they see as 'Islamisation' of their countries.
Collectives formed on the basis of economic interests are flimsy compared to the 'entrenched' attitudes of most of the world's populations who cling to their traditions and cultures.
We 'enlightened' Europeans are a small part of humanity.

So let the peoples of Ceuta and Melilla remain Spanish, the Gibraltarians keep their ties to Britain and let's recognise Spain's Government's attitude for what it is: camouflage and hypocrisy.


----------



## Alcalaina

jimenato said:


> The benefits of an airport with access from both sides are obvious - so why have Spain baulked?


According to the article posted by Isabella, it was Gib which "baulked":



> On 2 December 1987, an agreement was signed between the governments of the United Kingdom and Spain to allow the joint civil use of the airport.[4] The agreement foresaw the building of a new terminal in the neighbouring Spanish municipality of La Línea de la Concepción adjacent to the northern side of the existing frontier. However, the agreement was blocked by the Government of Gibraltar, led from 1988 by Joe Bossano. As a result, the agreement was never implemented.


This is why it's so hard to get an accurate picture of the situation - you have to read all sides and try and cut through the propaganda.


----------



## jimenato

Alcalaina said:


> According to the article posted by Isabella, it was Gib which "baulked":
> 
> 
> 
> This is why it's so hard to get an accurate picture of the situation - you have to read all sides and try and cut through the propaganda.


Interesting - the popular view is that Gibraltar has gone ahead on its own and Spain is dragging its heels - it seems not.


----------



## Isobella

Alcalaina said:


> According to the article posted by Isabella, it was Gib which "baulked":
> 
> 
> 
> This is why it's so hard to get an accurate picture of the situation - you have to read all sides and try and cut through the propaganda.


Yes that's true. However, there was the Córdoba Accord 2006 which led to flights to Madrid. Seems Spain withdrew from this.


----------



## Alcalaina

Isobella said:


> Yes that's true. However, there was the Córdoba Accord 2006 which led to flights to Madrid. Seems Spain withdrew from this.


Apologies for spelling your name wrong earlier. 

But to put the record straight, it wasn't a case of Spain pulling out of the agreement. It was the decision of GB Airways (a partner of BA) and Iberia followed suit. Explanation below:



> SUSPENSION OF SERVICES FROM GIBRALTAR TO MADRID
> 
> GB Airways has announced with regret that it will not operate a winter schedule from Gibraltar to Madrid after the summer season ends.
> 
> He continued: "In spite of our best efforts we have not been able to overcome a number of obstacles we have faced since announcing that we wished to launch these services particularly the severely limited availability of slots in Madrid which continues to make our schedule far too tight. Furthermore, the operating restrictions on flights into Gibraltar have made life unexpectedly difficult for us and more importantly for our customers. The new terminal and runway works that are due to start in Gibraltar this winter will no doubt exacerbate these problems.


If I had to make this journey I would go by train. One in ten flights in and out of Gibraltar are diverted to Malaga because of the weather or visibility problems - it's like Russian roulette.


----------



## chrisnation

The Daily Express!? Please! I'd hesitate to believe their football scores. Don't you realise that some papers actually make stuff up? 

My mum made a scrap book of pages fromThe Express and The Mail when they covered the story of my school moving to Estepona in 1962, from departure lounge to return to UK ten weeks later. Posed pictures - "Maths lessons on the beach for Form lllb" complete with Pedro & Miguel plus burros, roped in to add "authenticty". 

This Spanish nurses story has run many times before, down the years, in these two rags. I remember a shot, some 20 years ago, of a plane on the tarmac with two sets of steps packed with "Spanish nurses". 

In case of scepticism in what I've written, I used to be in the business. I once had a picture story of a bloke wandering round UK on a canoe-cum-bike turned down by The Sun (the shame of it!) "No girls" and by The Express for not staging the shot where the bike was afloat, as a canoe. The fact that we were in a supmarket car park did not excuse me from dragging the guy off to some river and giving him £10 to go afloat. 

Later I spent 10 months filing pictures to Reuters, AFP, AP etc of the Muj fighting the Russians. If you believe anything these papers write, I fear for your grasp on reality.


----------



## jojo

chrisnation said:


> This Spanish nurses story has run many times before, down the years, in these two rags. I remember a shot, some 20 years ago, of a plane on the tarmac with two sets of steps packed with "Spanish nurses".
> 
> .


The Spanish nurse thing is true, the department next to mine sent people over to interview them and we've just had the new recruits through the office on their induction.

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> They are border disputes in the sense that there are people with different beliefs and cultures fighting over where lines are drawn on the map. Of course there are other factors but that's basically what it comes down to - territories, protected by borders, enable people to define themselves as different from their neighbours.
> 
> I don't know much about the history of the airport except that it was built by the British on land not included under the Treaty of Utrecht, because it was a swamp and then a leper colony.


Beliefs and cultures.....people defining themselves as different from their neighbours....that surely is what makes the people of Gibraltar want to,stay as they are. It seems a deeply rooted even entrenched human instinct, doesn't it,more important in defining people than, say, class...pragmatism and rationality don't get a look in.
I think you once said that nationality was 'an accident of birth'. I agree with that but it's an accident which has profound consequences.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

chrisnation said:


> This Spanish nurses story has run many times before, down the years, in these two rags. I remember a shot, some 20 years ago, of a plane on the tarmac with two sets of steps packed with "Spanish nurses".


Google enfermeras españolas en RU or Spanish nurses in the UK and you'll find reports from many places including this from El Economista
Reino Unido tiene trabajo para 20.000 enfermeras españolas - elEconomista.es
El Servicio Nacional de Salud británico (NHS, National Health Service) *necesita cubrir con urgencia 20.000 puestos de enfermería. Cuarenta reclutadores buscan personal en España y Portugal, donde las consideran mejor preparadas. *En España hay un excedente de 10.000 enfermeras.
Según publica la Cadena Ser, cientos de profesionales del sector de la salud españoles, la mayoría enfermeros, comienzan a trabajar ya en el Reino Unido este próximo lunes, después de haber sido entrenados por la vía rápida.
Sin embargo, la necesidad de personal del NHS es mucho mayor. *En breve, 1.360 enfermeras españolas se incorporarán a un puesto de trabajo*...
Also in the Guardian, The Telegraph as well as local papers and nursing papers


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## jojo

This is from the beginning of last year. More followed during the autumn. Its not from a newspaper, but from the NHS trust. Hola and welcome to West Sussex | Western Sussex Hospitals There are even more coming this year apparently

Jo xxx


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