# UK SPOUSE VISA - Court hearing opinion needed



## Ronz (Oct 22, 2013)

Dear All, 

I needed an advice on my spouse visa refusal court hearing due in few weeks time.

My wife spouse visa was refused on my financial circumstance.

I was on self employment (1.3 months old) when I applied for spouse visa 

therefore I didn't have tax certificate however UTR was present. My accountant 

letter and forecasted salary for a year that was greater then required sum of 18600.

Prior to my self employment I was working as a Full time software engineer 

since I got graduated for 8 years and have been earning more than 18600 

proved by P60s and bank statements.

I was unlucky and was made redundant closer to my visa applying date.

However I felt brave and wanted to start my own business hence I committed 

self employment.

Visa Refusal knocked down my moral and I decided to go back to full time 

salaried employment again. I manage to get back on job after refusal and 

before filing an appeal.

My court hearing is near and I have all my payslips + banks statement + 

company letter that shows my earnings.

Should I still worry ?

I am representing my wife myself.

Please advice .............


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## skinnie58 (Apr 3, 2013)

Hi Ronz
Sorry to hear about your refusal, from what I understand you cannot provide new evidence at your appeal, the only evidence they will take into consideration are information before and up to the date of your application nothing after your refusal. It sounds like you are going to the hearing with all new payslips and bank statements which will not help your case.


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## Ronz (Oct 22, 2013)

skinnie58 said:


> Hi Ronz
> Sorry to hear about your refusal, from what I understand you cannot provide new evidence at your appeal, the only evidence they will take into consideration are information before and up to the date of your application nothing after your refusal. It sounds like you are going to the hearing with all new payslips and bank statements which will not help your case.


Thank you for the prompt reply, 

I manage to find a new job before filling an appeal.

Therefore along with the grounds of appeal form, I sent along my salaried 

employment company contract letter that stated my annual salary.

Do you think is that the information submitted in grounds appeal will not to be 

considered aswell ?


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

Ronz said:


> Thank you for the prompt reply,
> 
> I manage to find a new job before filling an appeal.
> 
> ...


As stated, only information that existed at the time of your application will be considered. No information about your new job will be considered.

Information about your new job will only be considered if you submit and pay for a fresh application.


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## Ronz (Oct 22, 2013)

I appreciate your senior advice.

We were refused on not producing self employment tax returns showing that I 

earn more than £18600. 

I couldn't have obtained those document because my business was only 1.5 months old 

and my UTR was under process to be issued, before that I was a full time employed and earning more.

HMRC takes up to 3 month to do self assessment on newly set up 

business therefore obtaining tax returns before self assessment was not possible 

The submission for tax returns only appear when 

business is near to tax returns date that was July 2013 in my case.

Isn't it unfair that they won't consider my peculiar circumstances ?

Had I continued with my self employment I could have produced those 

documents, instead I too executive decision and went back on full time 

employment.


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

Ronz said:


> I appreciate your senior advice.
> 
> We were refused on not producing self employment tax returns showing that I
> 
> ...


No, because in order to apply as self-employed you need to show your income from 1 financial year. You didn't meet the requirement because you had not been self-employed for 1 year with 1 year's accounts to back it up. You clearly didn't meet the requirement and were rightly refused.

From FM 1.7:

_9. Self-employment or Director of a specified limited company in the UK 

9.1. Category F: Last financial year

Where the applicant‟s partner (and/or the applicant if they are in the UK with permission to work) is in self-employment, or is the director of a specified limited company in the UK, at the date of application, *they can use income from the last full financial year to meet the financial requirement.*_



> Had I continued with my self employment I could have produced those
> 
> documents, instead I too executive decision and went back on full time
> 
> employment.


The documents weren't the issue. The issue was that you hadn't been self-employed for 1 year and so could not show income for the previous financial year.


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## Ronz (Oct 22, 2013)

Pardon me if I have not quoted this before,

Like I said since my business was 1.5 months old only, Prior to that I have 

been working as a full time software engineer from last 5 years and I provided 

12 months payslips and bank statements + P60 that showed my total income.

I initially thought that they will rely on my previous record of employment as 

my new employment was too new.

Does that make any difference ?


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

Ronz said:


> Pardon me if I have not quoted this before,
> 
> Like I said since my business was 1.5 months old only, Prior to that I have
> 
> ...


No. First, you weren't self-employed for a year. Second, you can only combine Category A and F if they cover the same 1 year period. So, for example you would have to be self-employed from January through December and working for an employer in either a salaried or non-salaried position for the exact same time period from January through December. Third, you would still have to be employed with that employer in the salaried or non-salaried position at the time of application. You filled none of those requirements.



From FM 1.7:



> Income under Category F or Category G can be combined with income from salaried and non-salaried employment, non-employment income and pension income in order to meet the financial requirement. However, unlike with other Categories, *these sources of income must fall within the relevant financial year(s) in order to be included.*Under Category F or Category G, all income must fall within the financial year(s) relied on. For example, to count income from property rental the income must have been received during the relevant financial year(s), though the property must still be owned by the relevant person at the date of application.
> 
> 
> Where a person in self-employment, or who is the director of a specified limited company in the UK, also relies on income from other employment (salaried or non-salaried) during the relevant financial year(s),*they must also provide evidence of ongoing employment (salaried or non-salaried) at the date of application.*


You should take the time to read Annex FM 1.7. I have included the link:

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/s...DIs/chp8-annex/section-FM-1.7.pdf?view=Binary


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## Ronz (Oct 22, 2013)

My court hearing is in few weeks time, I have been waiting for over an year for this date ...
I was hoping that court would consider my redundancy timings, my overall background and prospect along with the new job.

does it meant that I shouldn't waste time and apply for a new application ?


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## skinnie58 (Apr 3, 2013)

Hi Ronz

At the end of the day, if you feel you have sufficient evidence to win the case then go for it. You have waited this long, you have nothing more to lose but your time. Having waited this long I would go all the way what is a few more weeks, you never know!!! At the end of the day after this long it will only make you more aware if you have to apply. Good luck.


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## Ronz (Oct 22, 2013)

Although am depressed by hearing the facts. I will try to think over night to decide what to do next.

I'd like to thank you senior expats for your time.

Much appreciated.

With Regards

RON


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

Ronz said:


> My court hearing is in few weeks time, I have been waiting for over an year for this date ...
> I was hoping that court would consider my redundancy timings, my overall background and prospect along with the new job.
> 
> does it meant that I shouldn't waste time and apply for a new application ?


Your previous or potential future earnings will not be considered. You need to figure out which category best applies to you. Unfortunately, there is no category for past earnings combined with future prospects. You need to be able to show the hard evidence as outlined in FM 1.7.


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## Ronz (Oct 22, 2013)

Thank you much appreciate you advice.

With Regards
Ron


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## Ronz (Oct 22, 2013)

Hi Skinnie and nyclon,

I understand that i was refused as my self employment wasn't 1 year old and backed by the bank statement.

However my self employment lasted for 5 months before i went back on salaried employment on which i have paid taxed. the tax proves that i have earned alot more than required amount (18600pa) in those 5 months.

Do you think court will consider that I earned more than required amount in my self employment (I have tax certificate and business bank statement now available to back it up)

and the fact that i couldn't produce these docs when i applied as my business was too new.

and half way through my self employment i moved on to salaried employment because I simply couldn't cope up with the pressure and had my motivation killed due to my missus and i living apart?

and as we stand i am earning alot more than required amount pa and have been working for 8 months.

Also do you think that judge can show flexibility if appellant has all the correct paper work but was delayed due to time factor.

I really appreciate your honest and valuable advice.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Never say never but Home Office solicitor will do their best to confirm rejection.


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## Ronz (Oct 22, 2013)

Hi Guys,

Here i am back again ..

Unfortunately i did not get successful with my hearing ... I had my court hearing done today and you were absolutely correct in saying that the judge told me to reapply with fresh application. 

I am now applying for new application and i have following questions.

My missus TB certificate is expired, Do we need a new 1?
Is it true that now spouses applying for spouse visa require Life in UK knowledge test ?

Please advice 

Many thanks
RON


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

For a new application, up-to-date TB certificate is needed.
No. Life in the UK test is only for settlement (after 5 years).


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## Ronz (Oct 22, 2013)

*Thank you*

You guys are so brilliant with your honest answers. All i can say is Thank you for helping for free !!! 

More question to follow


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## Ronz (Oct 22, 2013)

Since i am going to apply all over again therefore this time i want to be Extra Extra Extra cautious. 

1) In my previous application, the only problem raised was regarding my financial requirement. everything else was accepted, Should i simply fill in the same details as previously filled as nothing changed apart from my financial requirement with new job details ?

Also do you guys have any other info that i should keep in mind ?

Please advice ..


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Update any details.
Make sure you meet the 28-day rule on financial documents like payslips and bank statement.
Be prepared to wait longer as re-application always attracts extra checks and verifications.


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## Ronz (Oct 22, 2013)

Hi Joppa, 

Previously i was refused on my financial requirements (i was relying on self-employment as i was made redundant close to my marriage).

But now i have found a full time job as Software Engineer in a Software company.

I have been working with the same company from April 2013.

I am including.

1) Payslips from April,May,June,July,Aug,Sep,Oct,Nov.
2) Bank Statement from Halifax April-Oct, Orignal Statement, However November statement is aPrint Out from Halifax branch but Stamped.

I am hoping to apply online in First week of December.

Do i fulfil 28 days rule ?

-Mrs got new TB certificate valid till 2014 December.

-English test was done last year Cambridge ESOL Level B2.

Does it all seem in order ? Please elaborate on Nov statement being a print out (stamped) as they if i were to order original statement that can take up to 2 weeks that may delay the process so i have simply got the print from the bank.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

I assume you have in addition employment letter and signed contract. As you began work in April, P60 isn't required.
Stamped Nov statement is fine.
Make sure the date of your last statement is within 28 days of when you apply.


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## Ronz (Oct 22, 2013)

I have original employment contract offer letter + HR director's reference on a companies letter head. I also read in one of your post that I would not need a property survey since I own a 6 bedroom house and live with my parents and sister.


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## Ronz (Oct 22, 2013)

Joppa said:


> Never say never but Home Office solicitor will do their best to confirm rejection.


Hi Joppa,

In my court hearing, the home office solicitor recognised my earning 16800£ from salaried employment then Judge goes I only need 2000 to fulfil the requirement, Then HO solicitor confirmed that I have received 4000£ income from property rent in 4 months that makes it 20800£ pa.

However Judge refused to consider the income as he said that 1000£ received per month from the tenants is going to mortgage every month hence you can not rely on this earning. Even though there is no such thing mentioned in FM 1.7...

What are your thoughts on it ?


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

I don't get involved in what goes on in an appeal hearing, as I don't have all the details and it's just one side of the story I hear.


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## Ronz (Oct 22, 2013)

Morning Joppa,

Okay, I appreciate your answer above.

I am now all set to send all the docs back to my Mrs in Pakistan.

Do you think it's a good idea to get it check by a immigration consultant or a solicitor ?

Last time they turned me down on financial requirement which I accepted that not all of 

my docs were as per their requirement, However this time I am more confident as I am 

relying on salaried employment and all the required docs such pay slips, bank statement 

and Company Reference + contract letter are present but I think I am loosing self 

confidence. Do you think legal representation matters at all or not necessary ?


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

It's up to you.


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## Ronz (Oct 22, 2013)

Can i verify all the docs with you before i send it ?

To comply with 28 days rule, I am only waiting for 29th to get my Nov pay slips and quickly run to the bank and get my bank statement printed and stamped.

I aiming to apply in 1st or 2nd week of December.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

You can state on forum what you are going to submit, but I don't offer checking service either directly or through PM. I'm not allowed to as I'm not a registered advisor.


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## Ronz (Oct 22, 2013)

Thanks Joppa, 

I will copy and paste every thing I will be sending across to UKBA with my docs tonight after work.

You guys are doing wonderful job though helping for free of charge ... Indeed you'll be 

rewarded.


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## Ronz (Oct 22, 2013)

Hi Joppa,

Following are the documents that i am going to send along with the form.

1)	Wife Passport Original
2)	One passport sized colour photograph 
3)	TB Certificate 
4)	English certificate(ESOL Cambridge Level B2) passed last year in September
5)	Original Employment Contract letter 
6)	Reference Letter from HR Director.
7)	6 Months payslips and Bank Statements.
i.	Dated
1.	May – 2013 – Original statement
2.	June – 2013 – Original statement
3.	July – 2013 – Original statement
4.	Aug – 2012 – Original statement
5.	Sep - 2013 – Original statement
6.	Oct - 2013 – Print out from bank with stamped.
7.	Nov – 2013 – Print out from bank with stamped.

8.	Land Registry documents for property (I\Husband owns it) 
9.	Permission Letter from my husband.
10.	British passport bio data copy included. (Husband\Mine) 
11.	Marriage Certificate - original 
12.	Photographs of our wedding – original 
13	Phone Statement (Evidence of our contact) + Skype logs
14.	Viber and Whatsapp logs.
15 Explanation letter in which i have explained that my application was refused due to my financial requirments however now i am in full time position hence the payslip/reference/bank statement included.


Please elaborate or shed light on these ..

Many thanks for your help


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## saw87 (Dec 2, 2012)

Ronz, I would also include:

- explanation as to why you don't have a P60 document (I.e. It hasn't been issued as only been working since...) 
- most recent council tax bill (as additional proof of your address)
- property inspection report (showing there is adequate space - perhaps not required if you are living there alone there?)
- statement from you explaining the background of your relationship, how you met, why you want to live together in the UK, plans for the future etc.
- boarding cards / e tickets / hotel bookings (proving you have visited one another before the marriage)
- a few photos of you together at different times (other than just at the wedding to show ongoing genuine relationship)

I hope this helps. Good luck with your application!


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## Ronz (Oct 22, 2013)

saw87 said:


> Ronz, I would also include:
> 
> - explanation as to why you don't have a P60 document (I.e. It hasn't been issued as only been working since...)
> - most recent council tax bill (as additional proof of your address)
> ...



SAW87, Thanks for your prompt reply,

It's a 6 bedroom house and I live with my Parents and sister. Do I still need the property inspection report ? Rest of the stuff is not problem as I have everything else that you have stated above ..

I do have P60 from my previous Job from year 2012/2013 would that be appropriate to add ?


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## saw87 (Dec 2, 2012)

6 bedrooms is by far big enough for you all to live together comfortablely. However I would be tempted to still include a property report just to be on the safe side. You could just write one yourself, stating the number of rooms, dimensions and internal photographs etc.

Does your 2012/2013 P60 show your earnings as over £18,600? 

If not, I would still include it but staple a note to it explaining why it shows a lower amount (I.e that was your previous earnings but since xxxx your salary exceeds the minimum requirement). Be sure to staple the note don't just paperclip it as it may get separated!


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## Ronz (Oct 22, 2013)

It's above £18600.
As per property inspection report, I will do the report with pic and house room sizes etc. 
I hope they wont mind the report being done by myself and not by professional company ??
I just spoke to council and they are charging 95£. I am in two minds


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## saw87 (Dec 2, 2012)

I opted for an official report from my local council which cost me about £120. But I think I've read of people submitting their own report and thats been accepted. Perhaps one of the mods can confirm that?


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

The trouble of doing your own is it's subjective and lacks objectivity. Councils which conduct inspections follow Home Office guidelines on what to look out for, so it's automatically accepted as valid and authentic. My recommendation is to get it done by your council or, if they don't offer it, by a competent professional like a surveyor.


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## Ronz (Oct 22, 2013)

I have decided to go for council inspection report as they only charge 95£.

I have checked that i only have P60 from 2012. I dont have P60 from 2013 as i was made redundant in July 2012. 

My new Job was started in April - to date and i don't have P60 or can't find for 2013 ??

Please elaborate if it's okey to submit P60 from 2012 and statement explaining why i don't have P60 from 2013. P60 from 2012 shows earning above 18600K. I am also going to submit new job's contract letter, reference letter and 7 months bank statement and payslips.

PS : When i was refused last time, I was refused on my financial requirment, I didn't put property inspection then and it was not raised. Although i sent a self written statement that i own a property that ha 6 bedroom and Land registery document + solicitor letter confirming transfer. Please also note that i only share my house with parents and sister.


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