# Big houses abandoned and left to ruin, but why ?



## SunnySpain (Jul 30, 2008)

Its something we see very often in these parts. A lovely big house, some of them could be mansions with lots of land, yet they are abandoned and left to rot.

Does anyone know why this happens in Spain ?

Would really like to know the answer.

Cheers, Dave


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Yes there are quite a few around our way, some look like they have amazing potential too. I think its something to do with their ownership. I dont understand all the bits and peices but I think when parents die, these properties are left to their children/families who have either moved away or moved on and without all of them agreeing to do something then nothing can be done??? There are also some strange land ownership laws which means disputes go on forever and properties arn´t allowed to be touched!!!!

I expect someone who knows more will put us right!!

Jo


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

They're haunted!


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

Oh, lots of reasons. Large houses - expensive to renovate/maintain. Difficult to prove ownership of land - inheritance issues, the cost of getting a perrito out to hunt out and register deeds with catastro (bit like land registry in UK) - and that's if there were any deeds in the first place, families scattering and tracking them down - then getting them to agree. They may also be listed properties as well, so actually being able to do anything with them that is agreed by the powers that be and adhering to dictated structural renovations is a costly process - grants are available but can be v. time consuming process. And of course what XTreme said - they could be haunted too! Woooooohhh! Shame really - there are some beautiful old properties out there just crying out for some tlc - not sure if there's a "National Trust" type set up in Spain.

Tallulah.x


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

My_Name_is_Tallulah said:


> Oh, lots of reasons. Large houses - expensive to renovate/maintain. Difficult to prove ownership of land - inheritance issues, the cost of getting a perrito out to hunt out and register deeds with catastro (bit like land registry in UK) - and that's if there were any deeds in the first place, families scattering and tracking them down - then getting them to agree. They may also be listed properties as well, so actually being able to do anything with them that is agreed by the powers that be and adhering to dictated structural renovations is a costly process - grants are available but can be v. time consuming process. And of course what XTreme said - they could be haunted too! Woooooohhh! Shame really - there are some beautiful old properties out there just crying out for some tlc - not sure if there's a "National Trust" type set up in Spain.
> 
> Tallulah.x


All very true Tallulah - some major cockups down my way with family all over the globe and anyone wanting to by having a big legal bill to face from a solicitor locating everyone - and then, as you say, getting everyone to agree.

ALSO, several cases of the last one in the link dying intestate. As I'm sure that might be the case in Expatshire. Many, many foreign residents don't realise how imperative it is to have a Spanish will made up. The one you have back home ain't worth a sausage here, and things get very tricky. Difficult for siblings and non part co-ownership partners. People don't realise they own half the house, not all of it in co-ownership. Half the other half belongs to the kids when a partner dies!
If you have a kid somewhere you haven't gotten on with for a while, and the relationship isn't what it should be, that child can make life incredibly difficult (even force you to sell for their bit) for the remaining partner. 

As for family that is not direct (partners/kids) major grief without a will. Hence the old homesteads just rot and get reclaimed by nature in many cases - or if it's big enough and ownership dubious enough, "inherited " by the local government and turned into something or other.

Bottom line - get a will made, it is MUCH cheaper in the long run and whilst you may not care "because you won't be here" - you may be unlucky and be the one left behind. Sorry for being so blatant, but how more blatant than the result of no will can it get


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## Meter Mike (Apr 18, 2009)

I think there is some law about restoration too.

In many provinces you can only restore if the roof is still on (silly i know) but when we were looking at old farmhouses, we found a perfect place locationwise, it was about 300m2 build but the roof was only covering about 100m2 and the town hall told us we could only restore that part of the property.

They would not permit knocking it down to build a new one!!

Pity because there would be less ugly urbanisations around if they made it easier to do the older ones up:


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Do they have "usufruit" issues in Spain, too?

In France, it's possible (and highly likely) that someone may inherit the "usage and income rights" to a property, while someone else gets the "ownership rights" to the same property. Basically one person has the right to live in a property and/or receive any rental income derived from the house, but they don't have the right to sell the property, nor can they make major repairs or alterations without the express permission of the folks with the ownership rights.

There are lots of games being played in France with the owners (usually the kids of the deceased) refusing to maintain the property in order to wait out the usufruitier (usually the surviving spouse of the dead parent). When the usufruitier dies, the owners get back "full" possession of the property and only then can they move in themselves or fix up the house the way they want to do.

It accounts for the tumble down condition of many houses in the nice parts of France.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Meter Mike (Apr 18, 2009)

I've not come across the usefruit law here in Spain Bevdeforges, though it could exist, I shall ask my spanish neighbour.

There is a law regarding the sale of property with agricultural use which a friend of mine came across.

Basically, he made an offer on an old finca and it was accepted, but then he received a letter from his lawyer that said the neighbouring land owner had exercised his right to by the land at that price and within a few weeks it was sold.

The lawyer said that this was common a few years ago and often the land owner knew his neighbour wanted the land so he actively went around finding a UK or German buyer who would offer more in order to get his neighbour to up his offer.

Sounds very logical to me.

Mike


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

Bevdeforges said:


> Do they have "usufruit" issues in Spain, too?
> 
> In France, it's possible (and highly likely) that someone may inherit the "usage and income rights" to a property, while someone else gets the "ownership rights" to the same property. Basically one person has the right to live in a property and/or receive any rental income derived from the house, but they don't have the right to sell the property, nor can they make major repairs or alterations without the express permission of the folks with the ownership rights.
> 
> ...


Indeed it does exist in Spain, and a good job too. In many cases it's the only thing that keeps the poor surviving partner in the home he/she has enjoyed for many years and stops the kids selling it from under them.

As I said earlier, a will is everything here!


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Xose said:


> Indeed it does exist in Spain, and a good job too. In many cases it's the only thing that keeps the poor surviving partner in the home he/she has enjoyed for many years and stops the kids selling it from under them.
> 
> As I said earlier, a will is everything here!


You're lucky in spain. A will does you no good in France. It's possible to protect a surviving spouse a bit using a donation (gift) or other forms of agreement before the will comes into play.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

Of course, the children of the deceased parent can sign a "poder" (power of attorney) so that the remaining parent has the freedom to sell the property/asset. What is great here is that at least the children cannot be completely disinherited by leaving everything to the local cats home/au pair (especially if the remaining parent remarries). Their part of the deceased parent's assets is theirs. Their "demanding their inheritance", the remaining parent's ability to cover that, albeit having to sell their home if they don't have the assets is where the complexities come in - including getting on well or not, there being a "usufruit" or not, the size of the estate and therefore the size of the portion (and therefore the strength of the claim to sell now due to monetary value), etc etc, all come into play; but the laws and due process is clear.


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## Rickiebear (Apr 13, 2009)

Xose said:


> All very true Tallulah - some major cockups down my way with family all over the globe and anyone wanting to by having a big legal bill to face from a solicitor locating everyone - and then, as you say, getting everyone to agree.
> 
> ALSO, several cases of the last one in the link dying intestate. As I'm sure that might be the case in Expatshire. Many, many foreign residents don't realise how imperative it is to have a Spanish will made up. The one you have back home ain't worth a sausage here, and things get very tricky. Difficult for siblings and non part co-ownership partners. People don't realise they own half the house, not all of it in co-ownership. Half the other half belongs to the kids when a partner dies!
> If you have a kid somewhere you haven't gotten on with for a while, and the relationship isn't what it should be, that child can make life incredibly difficult (even force you to sell for their bit) for the remaining partner.
> ...


Well said, we don't have a large 'pile' but have made a Spanish Will, which is mentioned to our UK Will. It only cost 100€ so well worth the peace of mind.


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