# French wiring and plumbing standards



## CarZin

All,

Is there a link to any 'english' written book that explains French wiring and plumbing standards? I do most all my work with wiring and plumbing, and the methods for doing each seem to differ quite a bit. I can't seem to find anything. May have to get the DIY books in French and have to start learning new technical words.

Thanks!


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## Bevdeforges

CarZin said:


> May have to get the DIY books in French and have to start learning new technical words.


That may well be your best approach. This is one of many of the areas that don't really seem to lend themselves to published translations - into English or any other language. Though, you could try some French DIY websites and see what one of the online translation programs does with the information. It would at least get you started and give you a few of the technical terms. 

However, given the requirements for wiring and plumbing projects to be inspected and signed off on by pros here in France, the availability of printed material may be somewhat limited.


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## DrChips

If you can buy it in the Brico it is usually OK to use!!

Most domestic electrics run as spurs from the distribution box, with suitable protection.
Cable sizing and rating is according to load, length and surface or conduit.

Plumbing is often interesting but the red and blue plastic and their fittings are a good way to go.

There are Government websites which you can follow (with translation) to direct you to resources.

Do you have previous experience that supports doing the work is probably the best question??

Good luck.


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## boilerman

Good luck in your search CarZin, In the UK, I'm an electrician and heating engineer, so I'm no help🤣. 20 yrs ago when we bought our place, I could find no help at all, so the loft conversion is done as per the rest of the house, I just followed what was there, and as Dr Chips has said, the electrics are radial/spur circuits, with corresponding trips in the board.

The water side of things, I've cheated on, Its done in Uk size pipework and design. When I sell up it will be interesting, to say the least(but my plan was to leave lots of fittings and pipework, to help the future owner)


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## rynd2it

CarZin said:


> All,
> 
> Is there a link to any 'english' written book that explains French wiring and plumbing standards? I do most all my work with wiring and plumbing, and the methods for doing each seem to differ quite a bit. I can't seem to find anything. May have to get the DIY books in French and have to start learning new technical words.
> 
> Thanks!


You could try asking a Brit electrician/plumber who is French qualified, they may know of reference works. The guy that worked on our house was just such so there's probably a fair few around.


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## CarZin

So my wife and I have done 4 total home renovations, and I do most of the work myself. Homes as old as 1900 (in the U.S., this is ancient). The really big stuff, like rewiring an entire hour to rip out knob and tube is stuff that I outsource to pros. But when it comes to electrical, running a new branch circuit, wiring new lights and switches are all things that are in my comfort zone in the U.S. However, the european wiring standards and totally different than here. We've been watching a lot of Chateau DIY lately, and the fact that most wiring is ran in flexible conduits is just not done here for residential house wiring. How you actually do junction boxes, and your screw on connections versus wirecaps are totally different. It just feels really foreign, and if we end up buying something in the country, being able to do some of this stuff is really going to be a necessity. I've even done elevator repair where I had to replace a bunch of sheaves on a hillside tram (HARD). So my handy level is near a 10.

When it comes to plumbing, I am experienced with copper and pex. I don't even know if France uses pex. The toilet connections are totally bonkers. Again, everything is different. Even the types of pipe for waste water.

I think good money could be made to break down U.S. and European standards in a guide to show how the same electrical/plumbing design in done differently for each country.

I was thinking my best bet would be to make friends with an electrician or plumber and offer a few weeks of free labor just to help me learn a bit. That would fly here in the U.S., but I don't know if that would offend some French cultural norm.

On a side note, I guess I am going to have to learn to plaster... joy.


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## Bevdeforges

They're generally pretty demanding in training for electricians here. You may want to take a look at the ONISEP site, which details information about the training and conditions for all sorts of categories of jobs. https://www.onisep.fr/Ressources/Un...cien-installateur-electricienne-installatrice

My DH is an electrical engineer (though in computer science) and he handles lots of stuff of an electrical nature for our house - but he has commented frequently about how different the systems are here in France, from both the US and UK.


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## BackinFrance

Some of the brico stores such as Leroy Merlin have pretty good guides for the relatively simple stuff, in French but with step by step pictures. They also run classes.


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## CarZin

Thank you all for the guidance. Much appreciated


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## boilerman

BackinFrance said:


> Some of the brico stores such as Leroy Merlin have pretty good guides for the relatively simple stuff, in French but with step by step pictures. They also run classes.


Wish I'd known that 20 yrs ago


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## Crabtree

You should be aware that if you are not qualified to do work in France( especially electrics) then no insurance will cover you or pay out in the event of something going wrong so IMHO people should be wary of saving a few hundred euros to avoid getting a pro in.
I always quote a house in a nearby village that was being done up by a Brit electrician and caught fire and was burnt to the ground as it had a thatch When the insurance found out that he had been doing the electrics they refused to pay out 
and a court case dragged on for years until the Brits ran out of money


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## CarZin

I don't know the rules in France, but in the U.S. as long as you follow the code and get inspections, there is nothing wrong with doing work yourself on your own home. I think the common sense rules apply. But in my situation, the quality of my work is better than a professionals 9 times out of 10. It is the reason I do most of my work now. I am tired of paying high rates for crappy outcomes. I've been busy redoing the 'professional plumbing work' on my house since I moved in 3 years ago. One garbage copper solder after another.

And it isn't hundreds. I saved about $75,000 in labor just doing a modest renovation of my lake house last year. Of course, there wasn't much electrical going on with that.


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## boilerman

CarZin said:


> I don't know the rules in France, but in the U.S. as long as you follow the code and get inspections, there is nothing wrong with doing work yourself on your own home. I think the common sense rules apply. But in my situation, *the quality of my work is better than a professionals 9 times out of 10.* It is the reason I do most of my work now. I am tired of paying high rates for crappy outcomes. I've been busy redoing the 'professional plumbing work' on my house since I moved in 3 years ago. One garbage copper solder after another.
> 
> And it isn't hundreds. I saved about $75,000 in labor just doing a modest renovation of my lake house last year. Of course, there wasn't much electrical going on with that.


I think, you may be surprised at the quality of workmanship in France. Its not cheap, but 9 times out of 10, its very good, and guaranteed........


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## CarZin

We get a bunch of untrained or poorly trained folks here. I realize that in France, they take their apprenticeships much more seriously. This isn't intended to sound crappy, but it is a fact. In our area, much of our labor force are folks who immigrated across the southern border and learned a trade, often poorly. Their prices have undercut the properly trained professionals. Or the licensed and trained professionals sign off on unlicensed work by less skilled laborers. 

In my area, the going rate for plumbing is around $120 an hour, with about a 2 hour minimum and normally a service charge. So, just to swap out a toilet will set you back $250+. An electrician rate is normally less, around $80-$100 an hour. HVAC is the worst. They charge by the job, and I would guess their netted labor rate is around $200 an hour.

I think painters are around $25-$40 an hour.

I don't do roofing (too high and dangerous) and I don't do sheetrock (labor is too cheap and it isn't worth the savings for my time).


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## boilerman

CarZin said:


> We get a bunch of untrained or poorly trained folks here. I realize that in France, they take their apprenticeships much more seriously. This isn't intended to sound crappy, but it is a fact. In our area, much of our labor force are folks who immigrated across the southern border and learned a trade, often poorly. Their prices have undercut the properly trained professionals. Or the licensed and trained professionals sign off on unlicensed work by less skilled laborers.
> 
> In my area, the going rate for plumbing is around $120 an hour, with about a 2 hour minimum and normally a service charge. So, just to swap out a toilet will set you back $250+. An electrician rate is normally less, around $80-$100 an hour. HVAC is the worst. They charge by the job, and I would guess their netted labor rate is around $200 an hour.
> 
> I think painters are around $25-$40 an hour.
> 
> I don't do roofing (too high and dangerous) and I don't do sheetrock (labor is too cheap and it isn't worth the savings for my time).


 I'm surprised that plumbers can charge more than an electrician, but what do I know, and anyway none of this helps your situation.
I will say though, that when we sell our house,(as residency is not an option anymore) I fully expect to have to update all the work I did, to bring it inline for guaranteed work. Your situation may be different, if you live there


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## Bevdeforges

Are you in the US currently? I only ask because you're citing everything in US$. Is your interest in the French regs due to your planning a move to France? Or are you already in France?


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## CarZin

Planning to move and preparing. Trying to decide how much work I am willing to put into / pay for a property. Having a understanding of what is involved will make me educated in what renovations I do myself and which ones I outsource. I don't do anything without a well thought out plan. We really have three options we are weighing which are totally opposed to one another. One is Paris. I don't need to worry much about renovation because there really shouldnt be much to a 100 sq meter apartment. Second is apartment in the Riviera. Same thing applies as Paris. The third crazy option is a chateau or manor house in the country (modestly sized 400-600 sq meters). if we go the manor/chateau route, it will be mega work and I wont be able to afford it any other way.

People often ask my wife and I how we are able to do so much at a young age. I tell them two things: 1) We don't have kids. 2) I don't pay someone else to do something I can do myself. I don't expect that to change in France.

^^ I never get electrician rates more than $100 an hour for residential. Plumbing almost always costs more. Put another way, I know rich plumbers. I know rich HVAC folks.  I don't know rich electricians. They make good wages, however, so I'm not putting it down. I am positive there are specialties in electrical that can pay a lot. I should qualify that I am really referring to the company owners, who were/are plumbers/electricians/technicians at some point.


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## BackinFrance

One of the reasons it's expensive to have work done in France is that the social security contributions are extremely high. Another is VAT. Nobody can work as an electrician here unless they are properly qualified.


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## CarZin

Does VAT get charged on labor for services? The full 20%?


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## BackinFrance

CarZin said:


> Does VAT get charged on labor for services? The full 20%?


Yes by and large, certainly for the types of things you would be looking at for home renovation, including materials when you do the work yourself.


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## Bevdeforges

CarZin said:


> Does VAT get charged on labor for services? The full 20%?


Oh yes, indeed. And on the sorts of renovation work that might fall under one of the (many) tax credit programs here, you generally have to source your materials and labor from the same company to qualify for the credit. In some cases the "deal" is that you get a significantly reduced VAT rate on only the material portion of the invoice.

There is also the matter that labor rates here can be quite a bit less than those you are quoting in the US (and that includes the 20% VAT) - in part because overall salary and wages tend to be considerably less here than in the US.

But, to at least get you started, here are two website (in English, even) that should give you a start on what you need to know about electrical work and plumbing standards in France:








French Electrical Systems - FrenchEntrée


The standard domestic electricity supply in France is single phase 230 volts, 50Hz. Read our useful guide about French electrical systems.




www.frenchentree.com












Plumbing in France


Are you considering some changes to the plumbing in your house in France? Before you get started get to know the differences between plumbing in France and plumbing in the UK. Learn how plumbing systems operate in France and which jobs may be suitable for a competent DIY enthusiast, and which...



www.frenchpropertylinks.com





This one is a nice summary, too, but is comparing the systems here in France to the UK systems (which are yet again "different" from what you have in the US):




__





French plumbing and electrics


The French wire and plumb their homes differently from the Brits. It’s not beyond the experienced DIYer but you might need the experts, says Peter-Danton de Rouffignac




www.completefrance.com





Happy reading!


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## FireRaider

Check Amazon for Thierry Gallauziaux, David Fedullo. they do DIY books for French readers.
On one of the forums I follow ( I think this one?) someone recommended them.
They are quite reasonably priced on Amazon.fr but a bit pricey on the US version because of shipping. I will be ordering them delivered this month while I am back in France.
Watch the Youtube channels of all the english speaking people restoring/refurbishing homes in France. Lots of good information and many do it themselves because, as you said, its the only affordable way. The big channels ( Chateau la Lande, etc.) seem to hire things out but I learn a lot from the little guys like 'AJ in France'.


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## SPGW

VAT is not always 20%. It can be 10% (on both materials and labour) if the work is for renovations and the property is >2 years old (ie most in France), or 5.5% for energy-efficiency improvements. Another consideration that might be a disuation from DIY, is that if the property is a secondary residence that you at some point you sell, you cannot deduct renovation work that you did yourself (either materials or labour) from the proceeds of the sale that you will have to pay tax on.


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## Bevdeforges

CarZin said:


> One is Paris. I don't need to worry much about renovation because there really shouldnt be much to a 100 sq meter apartment. Second is apartment in the Riviera. Same thing applies as Paris. The third crazy option is a chateau or manor house in the country (modestly sized 400-600 sq meters). if we go the manor/chateau route,


In something of an "afterthought" to what you said up thread, you may want to consider that a 100 m2 apartment in Paris is considered really quite large (and potentially "luxurious") - probably also in Nice and other large towns on the Riviera. If it's an apartment in a large building, you'll have the syndic to consider - basically a sort of "condo association" which may have plenty of restrictions on what sort of renovation work you can do on your property within the building.

And for chateaux, there is always the possibility that the building and grounds are considered "historic" (as only the French can do this), which will also come with a whole bunch of restrictions on what renovations you can and can make to the property. (Can also be the case with any property in what is considered a "historic quarter" of any small town.)

France is just a much more "regulated" country and society in which to live. The electrics and plumbing is only a very small part of this - but home ownership doesn't give you free rein to do whatever you want to your property, and quite a few types of renovation projects can require building or planning permits from the town. Definitely something to look into when looking for your ideal property here!


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## Befuddled

I would tend to add, apart from apartment type dwellings and those houses that come under specific historic listing regulations, that if you want to make improvements or alterations inside your own home, you can do so. You can buy a very tatty place with lead pipe plumbing and there is nothing stopping you from replumbing yourself with copper or plastic piping of completely absurd sizes and you will not be required to ask for permission or have the final result inspected. That same place can have dodgy unsafe wiring without effective grounding or safety fusible devices installed. You will be made aware of the unsafe state via the diagnostique report that is required by law to be made available to the buyer. You can then do a wiring job yourself to any standard that suits your fancy but I highly recommend you research, understand, and do a rewire to the most recent French "normes". The publication "L'installation electrique by Gallauziaux & Fedullo is comprehensive and well illustrated. It is in French but for someone already familiar with domestic wiring it is pretty easy to understand. This was the core of two complete wiring jobs I have done and both had occasion to be inspected afterwards for a pre-sale diagnostique with no failures. Work will only rarely need to be officially signed off by an inspector. Usually only if the property has been previously declared unsafe and disconnected by the energy supplier. As mentioned above, an installation done to anything other than the proper French normes using the specified standard of cabling is storing up big problems for the future.


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## SPGW

Just in case you go for the manor/chateau, there are subsidies available if the property fits certain criteria (link below to Fondation du Patrimoine) - a condition being that the work is done by recognised specialist artisans. This probably rules out doing some things yourself, but I would say there is no end of stuff to do on an old property anyway, and it's not all about cost, you have to do it for your own enjoyment and (presumably in your case) also as a place to live. It's rarely a positive outcome on pure financial terms.

www.fondation-patrimoine.org

Maybe others have more experience with this organisation?
Good luck.


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## CarZin

Thank you all for all the help and information. This is quite useful.

^SPGW: Yeah, I am aware. I am also aware of the nightmare the process can be. Because there are so many legal requirements to get reimbursement from the state, I would likely need to hire a French person to navigate the process and hope to get that to work.


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## Poloss

Hi, I've done a lot of elec renovation in France these last decades.
I've guided my son through a 3 year professional electrician diploma.

Legrand is an international company based in France supplying material for electricians worldwide.
They have this PDF - in English - on their website; maybe it can help you?
French standards pages 22 to 29



https://www.legrandgroup.com/sites/default/files/Documents_PDF_Legrand/Nos_solutions/Guide_International_standards_EN.pdf


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## CarZin

Poloss said:


> Hi, I've done a lot of elec renovation in France these last decades.
> I've guided my son through a 3 year professional electrician diploma.
> 
> Legrand is an international company based in France supplying material for electricians worldwide.
> They have this PDF - in English - on their website; maybe it can help you?
> French standards pages 22 to 29
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.legrandgroup.com/sites/default/files/Documents_PDF_Legrand/Nos_solutions/Guide_International_standards_EN.pdf


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## boilerman

Poloss said:


> Hi, I've done a lot of elec renovation in France these last decades.
> I've guided my son through a 3 year professional electrician diploma.
> 
> Legrand is an international company based in France supplying material for electricians worldwide.
> They have this PDF - in English - on their website; maybe it can help you?
> French standards pages 22 to 29
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.legrandgroup.com/sites/default/files/Documents_PDF_Legrand/Nos_solutions/Guide_International_standards_EN.pdf


Nice one Poloss, thats really handy


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## Poloss

boilerman said:


> Nice one Poloss, thats really handy


You're welcome 

My bible for elec standards is:
"L-installation-electrique-dans-l-habitat-existant - le guide du professionel" 
by Georges Fénié & Elodie Diederichs - Ed: EYROLLES

It's in French of course but someone familiar with elec can use an online translator 
and grasp the gist of the instructions which are clear and precise.

I have the PDF - around 45Mo - sells at 21€ - book version for around 30€


https://livre.fnac.com/a3598253/Georges-Fenie-L-installation-electrique-dans-l-habitat-existant


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## boilerman

Poloss said:


> You're welcome
> 
> My bible for elec standards is:
> "L-installation-electrique-dans-l-habitat-existant - le guide du professionel"
> by Georges Fénié & Elodie Diederichs - Ed: EYROLLES
> 
> It's in French of course but someone familiar with elec can use an online translator
> and grasp the gist of the instructions which are clear and precise.
> 
> I have the PDF - around 45Mo - sells at 21€ - book version for around 30€
> 
> 
> https://livre.fnac.com/a3598253/Georges-Fenie-L-installation-electrique-dans-l-habitat-existant


Thanks, now maybe after 20yrs, I can update my electrics to current French standards, before we die🤣


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## maheladwey

thank you for this subject


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## TOrner

CarZin said:


> So my wife and I have done 4 total home renovations, and I do most of the work myself. Homes as old as 1900 (in the U.S., this is ancient). The really big stuff, like rewiring an entire hour to rip out knob and tube is stuff that I outsource to pros. But when it comes to electrical, running a new branch circuit, wiring new lights and switches are all things that are in my comfort zone in the U.S. However, the european wiring standards and totally different than here. We've been watching a lot of Chateau DIY lately, and the fact that most wiring is ran in flexible conduits is just not done here for residential house wiring. How you actually do junction boxes, and your screw on connections versus wirecaps are totally different. It just feels really foreign, and if we end up buying something in the country, being able to do some of this stuff is really going to be a necessity. I've even done elevator repair where I had to replace a bunch of sheaves on a hillside tram (HARD). So my handy level is near a 10.
> 
> When it comes to plumbing, I am experienced with copper and pex. I don't even know if France uses pex. The toilet connections are totally bonkers. Again, everything is different. Even the types of pipe for waste water.
> 
> I think good money could be made to break down U.S. and European standards in a guide to show how the same electrical/plumbing design in done differently for each country.
> 
> I was thinking my best bet would be to make friends with an electrician or plumber and offer a few weeks of free labor just to help me learn a bit. That would fly here in the U.S., but I don't know if that would offend some French cultural norm.
> 
> On a side note, I guess I am going to have to learn to plaster... joy.


I did just as you mention, became quite good friends with my French electrician/plumber. So good that I brought him with me to the US for 2 weeks to help get our US house ready to sell back in 2017. He visited our house (built in 1996), my parents house (built in 2013) and my brother's house (renovated totally in 2011). He was totally surprised by the low quality of US electrical connections and said none of the houses would pass French safety standards. And if you buy something in France and DIY, it may be just fine for your use, but when it comes time to sell, you'll probably have some difficulty.


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