# Black money



## sketts (May 27, 2011)

Just viewed a house in Catalonia. Really like it, vendor has just said they will put a lower price on deeds and I pay the difference to the seller! I don't like the sound of it but they say this is how they do it, any advice?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Well, it is how a lot of people do it, but it doesn't mean that it's legal

Would you feel safe/ comfortable buying what I presume is going to be your home in a country that's not your own, and where you probably don't know all the ins and outs of the legal issues?
On the other hand, how are you going to feel if you lose the opportunity to buy this house?
You should know that supposedly the government is going to be tightening up on the money under the table stuff. And, there are many more properties on the market now than there are buyers...


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

sketts said:


> Just viewed a house in Catalonia. Really like it, vendor has just said they will put a lower price on deeds and I pay the difference to the seller! I don't like the sound of it but they say this is how they do it, any advice?


It's been common practice here for years, ( avoiding higher tax for both seller and buyer), but recently there has been a "crackdown" on this tax avoidance.
As PW said, you have to balance the want for the house and the risk of getting a bill for the rest of the tax later.

Personally, I would calculate the tax on the actual value(not the "black money" price) and set aside the cash, so if you are ever pursued for the tax, you have it ready to pay.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, it is how a lot of people do it, but it doesn't mean that it's legal
> 
> Would you feel safe/ comfortable buying what I presume is going to be your home in a country that's not your own, and where you probably don't know all the ins and outs of the legal issues?
> On the other hand, how are you going to feel if you lose the opportunity to buy this house?
> You should know that supposedly the government is going to be tightening up on the money under the table stuff. And, there are many more properties on the market now than there are buyers...


I meant ...
Would you feel safe/ comfortable buying what I presume is going to be your home in a country that's not your own knowing that you were breaking the law, and where you probably don't know all the ins and outs of the legal issues?


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

A friend of ours bought a house in this region last year and even the bank (a large national), who were giving them a mortgage, had two sets of forms to complete; one for the registered selling price (which was lower by some marging than the real price) and another for the balance to be made up by the other half of the mortgage.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Sketts it is an illustration IMHO of Spain's biggest problem. Breaking the law is accepted by the vast majority as perfectly acceptable, including lawyers.

However forgetting that side I believe there is another issue. If you buy officially low the seller gains. He pays less tax on the profit he made. (Remember in spain there is no 'first home' allowance). You the buyer temporarily gain by paying less council tax - I'll call it that  

So when you sell you are likely to find yourself with a larger profit. The only way to avoid paying tax on the difference between your declared lower cost and your then selling price will be to sell under the same circumstances that you bought.

It is a bit like pyramid selling, eventually the music stops and all those on-board lose.

But not until Spain is kicked up the arse by the EU and forced to change and enforce property taxation and inheritance laws will anything be different.

Note: I am not a lawyer or a financial advisor so don't take my word for it.

Also are you being asked to use one lawyer to represent both parties? I found this odd but as the transaction was clean (I turned down the lower price offer and still the deal was done) I went along with it and it certainly reduced costs.

But good luck whatever you choose to do


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

This is one of the reasons Spain could end up like Greece where the black economy makes up a huge percentage of the economy.. If the black economy in the UK were on the same scale as Greece a year's funding for the NHS would disappear.
Tax avoidance of any kind, whether on IVA or any other transaction, is a crime. It deprives the state of revenue for schools, the justice system, health and all the other institutions that make a civilised society.
It is grubby and underhand and personally I would not trust any business or individual prepared to operate in this way.
We managed to make a decent living from our UK businesses without cheating anyone, customer, employee or HMCR.
So it should be common, universal practice.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

sketts said:


> Just viewed a house in Catalonia. Really like it, vendor has just said they will put a lower price on deeds and I pay the difference to the seller! I don't like the sound of it but they say this is how they do it, any advice?


It is still common practice. Your solicitor will expect it, as will the notary. When we did it (2005), they nodded at each other and the notary went to water her window box while we handed over the envelope containing the cash.

Does anyone have any evidence that the long-promised "crackdown" is actually happening? 

With falling prices, won´t the value declared when the house was last sold be much closer to the current selling price? So the 'black' element should be smaller?


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> It is still common practice. Your solicitor will expect it, as will the notary. When we did it (2005), they nodded at each other and the notary went to water her window box while we handed over the envelope containing the cash.
> 
> Does anyone have any evidence that the long-promised "crackdown" is actually happening?
> 
> With falling prices, won´t the value declared when the house was last sold be much closer to the current selling price? So the 'black' element should be smaller?


Alcalaina I think that is a very interesting point. The pain of correcting the system once and for all would be less at the moment (although anyone who has owned for ten years or more would not see that). And it seems to me the spanish government could afford to be generous to encourage the change and still make money.

The change could also address why my MIL has to stay in a 3 bedroom flat she doesn't need and why she cannot afford to move into a smaller flat. Her moving would not only release a family flat in an area with some employment but she would be nearer a daughter and need less state support, and her moving like any other would stimulate the economy.

Of course in spain she would need the permission of all three of her daughters as they have already inherited their fathers share


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> This is one of the reasons Spain could end up like Greece where the black economy makes up a huge percentage of the economy.. If the black economy in the UK were on the same scale as Greece a year's funding for the NHS would disappear.
> Tax avoidance of any kind, whether on IVA or any other transaction, is a crime. It deprives the state of revenue for schools, the justice system, health and all the other institutions that make a civilised society.
> It is grubby and underhand and personally I would not trust any business or individual prepared to operate in this way.
> We managed to make a decent living from our UK businesses without cheating anyone, customer, employee or HMCR.
> So it should be common, universal practice.


Mary you must have a hard time doing any business in Spain 

Do you think some sort of amnesty is needed so that the millions of spaniards involved could make the change without fear of prosecution? 

And does anyone in Spain have the desire to make the change?


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2011)

Off topic I know...

I´m kinda with Mary on this one. You only have to look at Greece and Italy to realise that the black economy has had a profound affect on those nations fortunes.

Italy has a "hole" of between 20 - 40 Billion Euros in unpaid taxes (not avoidance or tax dodging), by latest estimates. That´s per annum BTW. That´s a stack of cash. How much is lost by tax avoidance? Probably double the other amount. Greece is similar, but it is unsure just how big this is hole is, but conservative estimates put this to be around 30% of GDP and rising.

People moan about governments not investing in this and that, but without the income from taxes, how are they supposed to pay for stuff? How do they cover infrastructure projects, health care, pensions and all manner of other necessary investment? They borrow money, at unsavoury rates, which simply compounds things further. They issue bonds with above market yields (Italy´s bonds - 6% yield -good if you´re buying them - bad if you´re Italy and having to pay the 6% "interest")

Oh and the UK? Forbes reckoned that the UK tax deficit in 2009 was around 28 Billion quid - that´s simply taxes not paid/collected (bad debt, if you will), with tax avoidance raising that by another 15 or 20 BILLION. Latest UK Tax office estimates (August 2011) are around 45 Billion quid in unpaid tax revenues and god knows how much through avoidance. Again, yearly estimates and not rolling figures. To equate that into something meaningful, the yearly unpaid taxes alone are higher than the annual UK defence budget, or half the NHS budget. That really sucks IMHO.

Might work for some, but will leave all pretty nasty legacy for future generations. Hell, it is having a pretty profound affect on us now. Not everything aspect of the current financial malaise is down to crappy US mortgages.


/rant

Sorry


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

It's not a rant, Yossa, it's telling it like it is.
Every time the state is cheated it's losing money that is needed here in Spain when social security payments are so measly and millions rely on them.
You can't have it both ways: wanting the state to spend more on health care, job creation etc. just doesn't fit with shaving a few or more than a few euros off your transaction, whether big or small.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> Mary you must have a hard time doing any business in Spain
> 
> Do you think some sort of amnesty is needed so that the millions of spaniards involved could make the change without fear of prosecution?
> 
> And does anyone in Spain have the desire to make the change?


Thankfully we don't do business in Spain or anywhere anymore but if we did we would stick to our principles.
Maybe an amnesty is needed. I don't know how great the desire for change is but a society based on corruption and dishonesty is a society with big problems.
I would have no trust in anyone who asked me to participate in such a dishonest transaction.


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## Beachcomber (May 10, 2009)

If you declare an amount lower than the result of applying a municipal multiplier to the valor catastral you _will_ receive a tax demand from AEAT for the difference even if you genuinely paid less than this amount for the property.


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## Jaxx (Apr 21, 2010)

*Don't do it!*

If you do, it may save you money and also the seller now, but eventually when you come to sell you will have to pay back the difference anyway! So it will cost you in the long run.Better to pay it now than to let your family sort it after your gone!

My friend did this and eventually she lost her building license it was taken off her and she now has an illegal build. Do it all above board to save yourself the worry if not now, then in the future! 

Our lawyer advised us against it, and so we did it all legally!!!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Thankfully we don't do business in Spain or anywhere anymore but if we did we would stick to our principles.
> Maybe an amnesty is needed. I don't know how great the desire for change is but a society based on corruption and dishonesty is a society with big problems.
> I would have no trust in anyone who asked me to participate in such a dishonest transaction.


Some stuff I found about Europe's money in the black. 
Greece outright winner, no surprise there. Then Italy then Spain, then Portugal. No big surprises there either, I think. What does surprise me is Finland at 14,3%, Norway at 15,4% and Sweden at 15,6%. Isn't that pretty high too?









There have been 3 amnesties regarding black money, the latest in August this year.

Quote from article in El País
Las multas por trabajar en ***** se quintuplican · ELPAÍS.com
Las multas por emplear a trabajadores sin contrato son desde ayer más elevadas. Con la finalización del periodo extraordinario para declarar esas irregularidades sin multa, las empresas se arriesgan a sanciones máximas de 10.000 euros, cinco veces más que hasta ahora. Durante tres meses, los empresarios han podido dar de alta a los trabajadores que tuvieran en ***** sin ser penalizados, una especie de amnistía laboral, pero bajo la advertencia de que, culminado el periodo de gracia, las sanciones se endurecerían

Fines given for employing people without a contract are higher, as from yesterday. The period given to declare these workers without being fined has finished. Companies are now at risk of being fined a maximum of 10,000 euros, 5 times the previous fine. Businesses have had three months in which to put employees working in the black, on the books, without being penalised - a kind of labour amnesty. After this period of grace, the sanctions will be harder.


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

It is well known that the landed gentry/big business/our lords and masters go to great lengths (with the full knowledge of the tax-man) to avoid paying taxes & of course they enact laws that enable them to do this.

Those at the top rob the system daily, it is reported daily & even if they step outside of *their* laws the penalty is often minor.
Yet they (and some of you) complain if the working man tries to keep a little extra for themselves, even though the lowest paid carry the biggest tax burden in *real terms.*


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

playamonte said:


> It is well known that the landed gentry/big business/our lords and masters go to great lengths (with the full knowledge of the tax-man) to avoid paying taxes & of course they enact laws that enable them to do this.
> 
> Those at the top rob the system daily, it is reported daily & even if they step outside of *their* laws the penalty is often minor.
> Yet they (and some of you) complain if the working man tries to keep a little extra for themselves, even though the lowest paid carry the biggest tax burden in *real terms.*



And that seems to be the problem with the "PIGS" and Europe

Jo xxx


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

playamonte said:


> It is well known that the landed gentry/big business/our lords and masters go to great lengths (with the full knowledge of the tax-man) to avoid paying taxes & of course they enact laws that enable them to do this.
> 
> Those at the top rob the system daily, it is reported daily & even if they step outside of *their* laws the penalty is often minor.
> Yet they (and some of you) complain if the working man tries to keep a little extra for themselves, even though the lowest paid carry the biggest tax burden in *real terms.*


If you can justify any of that tripe I would be amazed.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

jimenato said:


> If you can justify any of that tripe I would be amazed.


IMHO justifying your crime because there are others breaking the law is a route towards hell. And I have to believe there are more good people in this world than bad.

This is not a time for "an eye for an eye". It is a time to lead by example if we want to get out of this mess. It is why I like the youth of spain more than the politicians. They might suffer from naivety but they are united for good, not infected with greed. 

I hope the youth forgive us of a certain age for leaving them this mess.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

playamonte said:


> It is well known that the landed gentry/big business/our lords and masters go to great lengths (with the full knowledge of the tax-man) to avoid paying taxes & of course they enact laws that enable them to do this.
> 
> 
> *They also used to have the 'right of the first night'.....sleeping with the bride-to-be of a peasant or other lower orders. That practice has stopped, maybe it's time tax evasion was stamped out too.*
> ...



Yes, the lowest paid do carry the highest burden. This should be changed, I've argued for changes in the tax system many times on this forum. But perpetuating a rotten system isn't the answer.
(Not that I know what the answer is....listening to/reading the news lately I've had moments of black despair for the future. Time to turn to religion???)


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Some stuff I found about Europe's money in the black.
> Greece outright winner, no surprise there. Then Italy then Spain, then Portugal. No big surprises there either, I think. What does surprise me is Finland at 14,3%, Norway at 15,4% and Sweden at 15,6%. Isn't that pretty high too?
> 
> 
> ...


That's interesting. When you translate it in to people , as a % of the population , though you get a different picture. Greece slips down the list to at least 6th place behind the 
Italians 14 million
Germans 12 million
Spain 9 million
UK 7 million 
France 7 million
Greece 2,72 million

Just take Spain as an example.

Population 47 million
Unemployed 4,25 million 
pensioners 8,75 million
illegal workers 9,3 million 
Children U-18 11,75 million 

That's a total of 34,05 million , theoretically not contributing ! ( pensioners & some of those unemployed still in receipt of benefits would be paying tax ) 
Plus the amount of illegal workers is 75% of the amount of legal workers.:shocked:Worrying isn't it ?
:rofl: 

Greece.
pop. 10,78 million
unemployed 1,8 million 
pensioners 1,85 million
illegal workers 2,72 million
children U-15 1,1 million

Total 7,47 million . So 30% of the population are working & contributing as opposed to Spain where only 27,5% are . So the Greeks will be alright then ! :clap2:
The Greek debt amounts to about 30k for each member of the population but 100k for each of the working population. 
Trouble is statistics can be manipulated to show what the person giving them wants. Trouble is your not going to get the Truth , the whole Truth & nothing but the Truth from anyone who has a vested interest.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Isn't it a bit misleading to say that undeclared workers aren't contributing? They spend the money they earn. IVA is 18%, and duty on fuel etc is higher. Their work is often sporadic and short term and they don't get unemployment benefit when they are laid off. 

I'm not condoning the practice but they aren't necessarily as big a drain on the system as might appear at first sight.

A small employer might provide casual work for three or four people on the black but only be able to employ one or two if they were registered properly. 

Until the system is restructured with less punishing conditions for small businesses it's wrong to blame the casual labourer.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

This will help won't it !
Spain could face EU fines of 1 billion euros for its high unemployment rate. | News | Simply Networking


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

jimenato said:


> If you can justify any of that tripe I would be amazed.


I take it then you do not agree with what I said. 

Its also strange that Mrypg9 clicked the *like button* on your above comment yet replied to my post thus..............
<Yes, the lowest paid do carry the highest burden. This should be changed, I've argued for changes in the tax system many times on this forum.>
Which was the same as I said (more or less)


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, the lowest paid do carry the highest burden. This should be changed, I've argued for changes in the tax system many times on this forum. But perpetuating a rotten system isn't the answer.
> (Not that I know what the answer is....listening to/reading the news lately I've had moments of black despair for the future. Time to turn to religion???)


Well I cannot see this changing anytime soon & those at the top are extremely unlikely to change the rules to increase their burden, but unless our masters lead by example we cannot reasonably expect the working masses (us given the chance) to lead from the bottom up.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

playamonte said:


> I take it then you do not agree with what I said.
> 
> Its also strange that Mrypg9 clicked the *like button* on your above comment yet replied to my post thus..............
> <Yes, the lowest paid do carry the highest burden. This should be changed, I've argued for changes in the tax system many times on this forum.>
> Which was the same as I said (more or less)


I did that because although I agreed with some of what you wrote I felt you were 'legitimising' the situation. But In can see that it appears confusing.
Re your second post: why should 'the working masses' to have to be shown how to behave??
I intensely dislike any grouping of people into 'classes' or 'masses' It's an outdated Marxist concept which leads to generalisation, over-simplification and false conclusions.
Yes, you can group people but within the group there are as many variations and motivations as there are people composing said group.


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I intensely dislike any grouping of people into 'classes' or 'masses' It's an outdated Marxist concept which leads to generalisation, over-simplification and false conclusions.
> Yes, you can group people but within the group there are as many variations and motivations as there are people composing said group.


Dislike it you may, but that is how our masters view us & I am surprised you think otherwise.
Nothing like stating the obvious mind re-groups of people.


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## Issi (Nov 20, 2011)

You will pay for it in the end as your tax on selling will be on the difference between what you paid at the time of purchase and what the property is worth at the time of selling. So there will be a bigger gap than there should be! Not worth the risk especially if laws are being tightened they might not get you now but they might when you sell....and you will be breaking the law!!!


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## Jaxx (Apr 21, 2010)

*Totally agree Issi*



Issi said:


> You will pay for it in the end as your tax on selling will be on the difference between what you paid at the time of purchase and what the property is worth at the time of selling. So there will be a bigger gap than there should be! Not worth the risk especially if laws are being tightened they might not get you now but they might when you sell....and you will be breaking the law!!!


Totally agree Issi, this is exactly why we would not agree to it!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

playamonte said:


> Dislike it you may, but that is how our masters view us & I am surprised you think otherwise.
> Nothing like stating the obvious mind re-groups of people.



There are three basic ways of viewing society;
1) as three classes...lower(working) middle and upper
2) as a hierachy, with each individual knowing his/her place in the rank order
3) as a dichotomy...'us and them'.


All three models have been and are still used, sometimes all three co-existing depending on the perception of the individual and on political and social circumstances.

1) is too vague to be of much use. These groups are not homogenous and contain many sub-groups within themselves. They certainly don't have a 'class consciousness' in the socialist/Marxist sense.
2) seems to be the way most Brits accept albeit subconsciouslessly. Of course it all relies on the concept of 'monarchy'. Abolish that and the idea of rank order wouldn't be sustainable.
3) appears at various times in history and is currently coming to the fore.
The 'thems' and 'uses' vary - now it's 'the bankers' against 'ordinary people'.

The trouble with all attempts at putting people into groups for political purposes is that these groups are composed of individuals with varying perceptions of their status, differentials of income and political views.

Real life is more complicated than some would wish.

And who are 'our masters'?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> That's interesting. When you translate it in to people , as a % of the population , though you get a different picture. Greece slips down the list to at least 6th place behind the
> Italians 14 million
> Germans 12 million
> Spain 9 million
> ...


I don't really get this. 
I don't think you can translate the % of GDP in black money to millions of people. Black money isn't just people working and not declaring - it's buying and selling/ trading without declaring too, so how do you get a figure referring to people out of that? Or put another way, you have a figure of 9 million people - doing what 'cos it's not just people working in the black, is it?
Or is it me?
PS Gus was referring to the visual in post 16


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

gus-lopez said:


> That's interesting. When you translate it in to people , as a % of the population , though you get a different picture. Greece slips down the list to at least 6th place behind the
> Italians 14 million
> Germans 12 million
> Spain 9 million
> ...


Statistics are a means of analysing data, nothing else. People can be manipulated. Data can be wrong or inappropriately analysed. But statistics is just a branch of mathematics and if you do the right sums you'll get the right answers.


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

see here BBC News - Eurozone debt web: Who owes what to whom?


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

rifleman said:


> Statistics are a means of analysing data, nothing else. People can be manipulated. Data can be wrong or inappropriately analysed. But statistics is just a branch of mathematics and if you do the right sums you'll get the right answers.


And the point Pesky was making was that these are not the right sums


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

> trouble is statistics can be manipulated to show what the person giving them wants.


Was the comment I was addressing. It is a popular myth, but quite untrue.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

rifleman said:


> Was the comment I was addressing. It is a popular myth, but quite untrue.


Ah I see, sorry. But to be fair there is a difference between reading things into correct statistics and wrong statistics.

I think this is a real danger. It is like the who owes who what. When they say Spain do they refer to bonds, the government, the spanish banks, spanish quoted companies, the people, and/or any combination there of? 

And even when you can answer that it boils down to confidence and sentiment.

And sadly in Spain, regardless of the election there is zero confidence and very little sentiment


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

nigele2 said:


> Ah I see, sorry. But to be fair there is a difference between reading things into correct statistics and wrong statistics.
> 
> I think this is a real danger. It is like the who owes who what. When they say Spain do they refer to bonds, the government, the spanish banks, spanish quoted companies, the people, and/or any combination there of?
> 
> ...


Who owes what to whom are not statistics. They are data. In order to use statistics to analyse what the data means you obviously need to know what the data represents, how it was collected, etc. But there are,plenty of sources who share such information publically.

So most claims that are made using statistics to support them can be checked and analysed by you or me. The only reason to be misled is because you can't be bothered to check for yourself or you decide to trust someone who has a vested interest.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

rifleman said:


> Who owes what to whom are not statistics. They are data. ........


But statistics on the black economy are clearly not data. The black economy value is an guesstimation. And it is guesstimated by people with a self interest. And you and I cannot check the source.

And who owes who is also a guesstimate. As an example no one knows what borrowings are hedged and to what level of confidence there should be in the hedging. 

And even Germany with its delight for administration and bureaucracy found E50,000,000,000 lying under the carpet just the other day 

What we can do is use our eyes. Make a judgement. And point out as Pesky did when an assumption based on an error is published. And it is important to do so IMHO


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't really get this.
> I don't think you can translate the % of GDP in black money to millions of people. Black money isn't just people working and not declaring - it's buying and selling/ trading without declaring too, so how do you get a figure referring to people out of that? Or put another way, you have a figure of 9 million people - doing what 'cos it's not just people working in the black, is it?
> Or is it me?
> PS Gus was referring to the visual in post 16


Point taken . The 19,8% of gdp still relates to approx. 280billion euros . that's an economy in itself !


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

nigele2 said:


> But statistics on the black economy are clearly not data. The black economy value is an guesstimation. And it is guesstimated by people with a self interest. And you and I cannot check the source.


You are wrong. Data is gathered on the black economy. It is the sort of data which is difficult to gather and so it us the type of data which has to be treated as flawed.
There are particular statistical techniques which can be applied to such data in order to test how flawed the data is and apply appropriate corrections.


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

Look up statistics on Wikipedia. Then look up data on Wikipedia.

I think perhaps you are using the term statistics when you should be using the term data.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

rifleman said:


> see here BBC News - Eurozone debt web: Who owes what to whom?


I've just looked & according to the figures Spain owes 430 +billion to various countries but is owed 582+ billion . The U.S. is frightening !

BUT the article says that the debt Spain owes is 1,9 trillion ? Who does it owe it to then as the graph adds up to my figure ? :confused2: Mind you it also shows the Spanish gdp to be 0,7 trillion when most other sources give it as 1,1-1,2 trillion ?


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

gus-lopez said:


> I've just looked & according to the figures Spain owes 430 +billion to various countries but is owed 582+ billion . The U.S. is frightening !
> 
> BUT the article says that the debt Spain owes is 1,9 trillion ? Who does it owe it to then as the graph adds up to my figure ? :confused2: Mind you it also shows the Spanish gdp to be 0,7 trillion when most other sources give it as 1,1-1,2 trillion ?


You need to read all of the notes on the data and the faqs.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

rifleman said:


> There are particular statistical techniques which can be applied to such data in order to test how flawed the data is and apply appropriate corrections.


But that only works if you have a stable reference and in this case you don't.

But c'est la vie. Whatever stats and data you use Spain is in the pooh to a much greater extent than nearly anyone else in Europe and will remain so for the foreseeable future. I'm 95% certain that 89% of us here can agree that that is 88% correct, or not 

Enjoy, I need a pint and I am 100% certain Mary would enjoy what is going to pass down my throat


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

rifleman said:


> You need to read all of the notes on the data and the faqs.


Q = Why don't the debt figures shown in the circle add up to the total gross external debt for a country shown above the text on the right?

A = Not all countries that are owed money are featured in the graphic. Only the key eurozone countries and some major world economies are included. We wanted to provide a snapshot of the complicated world of inter-country lending. 

Basically It's not worth the paper it's written on then as to leave out 2/3rds of a countries debt makes the "snapshot" worthless. 
Someone , somewhere must know exactly who owes what to whom ?


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

nigele2 said:


> But that only works if you have a stable reference and in this case you don't.
> 
> But c'est la vie. Whatever stats and data you use Spain is in the pooh to a much greater extent than nearly anyone else in Europe and will remain so for the foreseeable future. I'm 95% certain that 89% of us here can agree that that is 88% correct, or not
> 
> Enjoy, I need a pint and I am 100% certain Mary would enjoy what is going to pass down my throat


I don't know what you mean by a stable reference.

Once again please look at Wikipedia to see the difference between statistics and data. The former are mathematical techniques used to analyse data. So long as you have data the techniques can be used, even if the data is flawed or incomplete.


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