# SRE Spanish competency test



## lat19n (Aug 19, 2017)

My wife called SRE this morning and told them we have all the paperwork gathered.

The woman said she would see when they can schedule our interviews.

She also said to my wife - tell you husband to study his Spanish. Apparently they are going to show me images and ask me to describe what I see.

Has anyone ever seen a website that uses that sort of method that I can use to study ?


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## lat19n (Aug 19, 2017)

I found this site which is interesting. Not sure that this sort of approach is what I should expect - but you would think if they are actually going to deliver a 'test' it would probably be some sort of multiple choice - as I believe the historical test is.

https://www.123teachme.com/


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

well the historical test a a multiple choice test but the fuency in the language is more like a conversation in Spanish in Guadalajara so you either can speak Spanish or you cannot.. then it depends at what level they want you to speak it.. Not sure how you would study for that.. Just speak Spanish with your wife all day and that should do it.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

citlali said:


> well the historical test a a multiple choice test but the fuency in the language is more like a conversation in Spanish in Guadalajara so you either can speak Spanish or you cannot.. then it depends at what level they want you to speak it.. Not sure how you would study for that.. Just speak Spanish with your wife all day and that should do it.


Good advice, but not very practical in my experience. Couples seem to stay in one language. Consequently, people moving to Mexico and living with a fluent English speaker have more trouble learning Spanish than those that come alone or live with someone whose English is weak or nonexistent.


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## lat19n (Aug 19, 2017)

TundraGreen said:


> Good advice, but not very practical in my experience. Couples seem to stay in one language. Consequently, people moving to Mexico and living with a fluent English speaker have more trouble learning Spanish than those that come alone or live with someone whose English is weak or nonexistent.


That has been my experience. When we arrived in Mexico my Spanish consisted of little more than gracias or la cuenta por favor. My wife did ALL the talking. I took Spanish lessons for a couple hours each Saturday, but it was still hard for me to interject myself into a conversation when I was with my wife - and she did not appreciate it when I asked her to let me talk for myself. We tried the - we will only talk Spanish in the house thing - but I don't think that ever lasted a day.

Well my vocabulary has grown some over time - but mostly in terms of food, gardening, home repair etc. Most of my sentences include things like; quiero <infinitive> or necesito <infinitive> or fui / fue / fuimos or voy / va / vamos <a + infinitive>. I have just recently reached the point where I can have a conversation on the phone (if I know more or less what is being discussed - like the bank) and I ask the person I am speaking with to please speak slowly. Often - if I need to conjugate a verb I will toss out 2 or 3 conjugations in the same sentence and let the person I am speaking with chose the right one.


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

TundraGreen said:


> Good advice, but not very practical in my experience. Couples seem to stay in one language. Consequently, people moving to Mexico and living with a fluent English speaker have more trouble learning Spanish than those that come alone or live with someone whose English is weak or nonexistent.


This was the experience with my husband, but _al revés_, for him to learn English when he moved to Canada, when our language as a couple was, is and always will be Spanish. He took classes, we tried “speaking 20 minutes every day in English only”, “English only Saturdays”, etc. etc. At least he was hearing English in the house all the time, as the kids and I speak mostly English with each other (they speak Spanish with their dad and when we’re having a 4 way conversation with dad included). He also watches TV in English. He manages with his English but isn’t fluent.


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## perropedorro (Mar 19, 2016)

TundraGreen said:


> Good advice, but not very practical in my experience. Couples seem to stay in one language. Consequently, people moving to Mexico and living with a fluent English speaker have more trouble learning Spanish than those that come alone or live with someone whose English is weak or nonexistent.


I tend to agree, but a couple can learn from each other if they make an effort. By the time I got married my Spanish was well enough along to get around Mexico and Central America just fine, and good enough to successfully pursue romance and bag a wife that spoke no English at the time which put me pretty close to fluency with minimal accent. And, man, when you can get in a hot argument with the old lady and hold your own _in her language_, that's when you know you're there. Then we settled down in the U.S. and it was her turn to take classes and demand that I stop speaking Spanish to her---which I mostly did after a conscious effort. Pretty soon she was winning the fights, in English. Now retired in Mexico and often looking for something to do, maybe we should write a language acquisition program based on the process-- The Lockhorns Method.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

perropedorro said:


> I tend to agree, but a couple can learn from each other if they make an effort. By the time I got married my Spanish was well enough along to get around Mexico and Central America just fine, and good enough to successfully pursue romance and bag a wife that spoke no English at the time which put me pretty close to fluency with minimal accent. And, man, when you can get in a hot argument with the old lady and hold your own _in her language_, that's when you know you're there. Then we settled down in the U.S. and it was her turn to take classes and demand that I stop speaking Spanish to her---which I mostly did after a conscious effort. Pretty soon she was winning the fights, in English. Now retired in Mexico and often looking for something to do, maybe we should write a language acquisition program based on the process-- The Lockhorns Method.


I think you and your wife are unusual. Good for you.


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

perropedorro said:


> I tend to agree, but a couple can learn from each other if they make an effort. By the time I got married my Spanish was well enough along to get around Mexico and Central America just fine, and good enough to successfully pursue romance and bag a wife that spoke no English at the time which put me pretty close to fluency with minimal accent. And, man, when you can get in a hot argument with the old lady and hold your own _in her language_, that's when you know you're there. Then we settled down in the U.S. and it was her turn to take classes and demand that I stop speaking Spanish to her---which I mostly did after a conscious effort. Pretty soon she was winning the fights, in English. Now retired in Mexico and often looking for something to do, maybe we should write a language acquisition program based on the process-- The Lockhorns Method.


Out of curiosity, how old was your wife when she learned English? I do think age is a factor in ease of language acquisition. I was 21 yrs old when I became fluent in Spanish (via the “relationship with someone who doesn’t speak English” method). My husband was in his 40’s when he moved to Canada. 

Even though English is my first language, my default language for expressing strong emotion (fighting, sad, overjoyed) is Spanish. My kids know when I start speaking Spanish at them in a frustrated voice, it’s time to listen. “OK, OK mom, calm down.” 

Also whatever brain filters I have separating the two languages start breaking down when I’m really tired. I especially find myself sticking Spanish “connecting words” like “y”, “o”, “pero”, “si” etc. into my English. Or the first word that pops into my head might be in Spanish, and I have to consciously translate it to English. It’s really a phenomenon that happens when I’m overly tired and the Spanish inserts itself into my English, more than vice versa. I find that odd. The easiest is if I’m speaking to someone else bilingual and we can just take the path of least resistance, using whichever word pops into mind first. Not really Spanglish, just transitioning back and forth between the two. Ok, I guess it is sort of Spanglish, but only if I’m sleep deprived! 😴😴😉


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## perropedorro (Mar 19, 2016)

ojosazules11 said:


> Out of curiosity, how old was your wife when she learned English? I do think age is a factor in ease of language acquisition. I was 21 yrs old when I became fluent in Spanish (via the “relationship with someone who doesn’t speak English” method). My husband was in his 40’s when he moved to Canada.


 She was 30 when she started, so she still has an accent-- which gets more pronounced if she's hurried or emotional. IMO people can become fluent at any age, but having a native-like accent is far harder the older you get and some people can never get that down. I call it the_ Henry Kissinger_ syndrome, and whatever you think of the guy's politics (IMO he's a dirty old fascist), his English vocabulary and syntax are at a very high level, but with an accent that renders speech nearly incomprehensible. As for being multi-lingual, occasionally a Spanish invades my English if it's recalled first. What I really do notice is that information committed to memory is stripped of it's language carrier: I can recall data, but usually can't remember which language I learned it in unless I also recall the who, what, and where of the source.


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

perropedorro said:


> She was 30 when she started, so she still has an accent-- which gets more pronounced if she's hurried or emotional. IMO people can become fluent at any age, but having a native-like accent is far harder the older you get and some people can never get that down. I call it the_ Henry Kissinger_ syndrome, and whatever you think of the guy's politics (IMO he's a dirty old fascist), his English vocabulary and syntax are at a very high level, but with an accent that renders speech nearly incomprehensible. As for being multi-lingual, occasionally a Spanish invades my English if it's recalled first. What I really do notice is that information committed to memory is stripped of it's language carrier: I can recall data, but usually can't remember which language I learned it in unless I also recall the who, what, and where of the source.


I think *some* people can learn at any age, but for others if they start learning later in life (after 45 or 50?) it will be next to impossible to become fluent. Adequate to get by with the basics, yes, but fluency will be beyond the reach of some (not all) older language learners. Speaking more than one language prior to learning a new one seems to make it easier to learn the next language. Likely using more than one language keeps the language acquisition parts of the brain more flexible. I have heard some expats criticize other expats for not learning Spanish. I 100% agree that everyone should put in their best effort at learning basic phrases, but I’m not going to judge them for not being able to speak beyond the basics, anymore than I judge my elderly patients who have joined their families in Canada in later life and don’t learn English. I have one sweet little great-grandmother from Bangladesh. She has learned very basic words like “hello” and “thank you”. But her smile and warm handshake communicate so much more, and her family translates the rest. If I moved to Bangladesh at my age, I don’t know how well I’d do at learning Bengali. 

I’m always impressed by people from South Asia (e.g. India, Afghanistan) who speak multiple languages, even those who have had fairly limited formal education. They might speak Hindi or Urdu, English, and then one, two or three regional languages. Most Europeans I’ve known also speak 2 or more languages. I made sure my kids grew up trilingual (English, Spanish, French).


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## perropedorro (Mar 19, 2016)

ojosazules11 said:


> I’m always impressed by people from South Asia (e.g. India, Afghanistan) who speak multiple languages, even those who have had fairly limited formal education. They might speak Hindi or Urdu, English, and then one, two or three regional languages. Most Europeans I’ve known also speak 2 or more languages. I made sure my kids grew up trilingual (English, Spanish, French).


I don't know many people from South Asia, but am aware that there a bunch of languages in India alone. Europeans are quite used to using various languages, and being at least trilingual there isn't confused with being highly intelligent, but rather being _moderately_ educated.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Yes I agree the more languages you learn the easier it gets up to a point. I started learning Spanish at 53 and picked it up fairly quickly but then it is close to French and I also learned how to speak 2 other languages before.. I would think it would be very difficult to become fluent in a language if you start learning a language late in life. The first one is the most difficult then the brain figures out how to disconnect from going back to your original language.
I have now forgotten German as I have not used it for years but I am also picking up more Tzeltal because of the Tzotzil I learned.. I am not gifted with languages I almost flunked English and was told by an English teacher I would never learn how to speak English.. You just never know how much you can learn when you get motivated..


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## lat19n (Aug 19, 2017)

We went for our interviews today. The people at the SRE office were very friendly. If the requirement were simply conversational Spanish I think I would have nailed it.

There is now a formal Spanish competency test (new). It is probably nothing that a 6th grade Mexican student could not pass - if they were not nervous and followed directions correctly.

I actually did better than I would have thought - but not good enough unfortunately - and will be returning again next week (hopefully) to try again. But I will be returning with my wife - who also needs to retake the test. She has lived in Spain and Peru and now Mexico for 5+ years and has racked up 3 million miles travelling Latin America on business over the years.

I have no doubt that the people today really want us to get through the process successfully.


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## lat19n (Aug 19, 2017)

Edit : or another possibility is that the folks at SRE were just trying to be supportive of me and my wife really did good enough to pass the test. At the top of her test the grade was 9. There was no grade at the top of mine - but we could both see what we got right/wrong ... But what is true - the instructions were not clear to either of us. Maybe they would just like to keep our processes in sync out of convenience.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

If your wife is better than you are have her become citizen first and then apply a year or 2 later.. That is what we did..By the way you do not learn a language by travelling to different countries.. Your wife travelled in Spain , Peru, Mexico etc.. For someone learning Spanish each one of these countries is a challenge because of accent and slightly or totally different vocabulary.. I know that when I went to Peru last yest reading a menu was a challenge because a lot of the words were different..all you have to do is ask the waiter what is this and what is that.. also in the cabs the accent of the locals really threw me for a loop, after the first week it was no problem but the first few days were not that easy and one of my very good friend is from Lima and we speak Spanish when together.. She is from an upper class family and the street guys sure spoke differently..

By the way in France if you want to become a citizen you have to speak French and pretty well and I really think they do not care if you want to become French or not and I cannot blame the Mexicans for thinking the same way..A bunch of retirees not speaking the language do not bring a whole lot to the culture.

By the way chances are that a 6th grade Mexican kids speak better Spanish than most foreigners will ever speak.. You just cannot compare native speakers to second language learners.. These kids have no problems between ser and estar or using the subjonctive.. it comes naturally to them.


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## lat19n (Aug 19, 2017)

citlali said:


> If your wife is better than you are have her become citizen first and then apply a year or 2 later.. That is what we did..By the way you do not learn a language by travelling to different countries.. Your wife travelled in Spain , Peru, Mexico etc.. For someone learning Spanish each one of these countries is a challenge because of accent and slightly or totally different vocabulary.. I know that when I went to Peru last yest reading a menu was a challenge because a lot of the words were different..all you have to do is ask the waiter what is this and what is that.. also in the cabs the accent of the locals really threw me for a loop, after the first week it was no problem but the first few days were not that easy and one of my very good friend is from Lima and we speak Spanish when together.. She is from an upper class family and the street guys sure spoke differently..
> 
> By the way in France if you want to become a citizen you have to speak French and pretty well and I really think they do not care if you want to become French or not and I cannot blame the Mexicans for thinking the same way..A bunch of retirees not speaking the language do not bring a whole lot to the culture.
> 
> By the way chances are that a 6th grade Mexican kids speak better Spanish than most foreigners will ever speak.. You just cannot compare native speakers to second language learners.. These kids have no problems between ser and estar or using the subjonctive.. it comes naturally to them.


I'm not sure that the new Spanish language testing is not going to be required of all the flavors of naturalization. I think the only expert in that area is the last person to have gone through the process - and even that has potential differences.

Ah - my wife didn't travel to Spain, Peru and Mexico - she lived there. In the case of Spain she lived in Segovia and she speaks beautiful Castilian Spanish. 

I totally agree that Mexico has the right to set whatever standards for citizenship they want. I was surprised to read recently that in 2016 Mexico (a decent sized country) only had 2200 new naturalized citizens. I also read that that number was down 25% as of late. 

Finally - our best Mexican friend is a very intelligent doctura. She warned my wife that there is a new attitude developing in Mexico towards Americans. My wife and I have given yesterday's experiences a lot of thought. If invited to return to SRE for another interview we will once again give it our best shot and if not successful - we will chalk it up to fate (or attitude) - and thank them for the chance to be invitados.


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## perropedorro (Mar 19, 2016)

lat19n said:


> We went for our interviews today. The people at the SRE office were very friendly. If the requirement were simply conversational Spanish I think I would have nailed it.
> 
> There is now a formal Spanish competency test (new). It is probably nothing that a 6th grade Mexican student could not pass - if they were not nervous and followed directions correctly.


Tell us about the new _formal Spanish competency_ exam. You indicated that it's written, so I'm guessing verb conjugations, punctuation, and syntax; the things emphasized in most college Spanish courses that leave one "booksmart" but not fluent.


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## lat19n (Aug 19, 2017)

perropedorro said:


> Tell us about the new _formal Spanish competency_ exam. You indicated that it's written, so I'm guessing verb conjugations, punctuation, and syntax; the things emphasized in most college Spanish courses that leave one "booksmart" but not fluent.


I do not want to influence YOUR experience - I was simply sharing OURS. I also do not want to jeopardize whatever it is that SRE might be attempting.

But I will contribute - we expected an 'interview' where we would answer questions like; how long have you lived here ? why do you want Mexican citizenship ? what do you do in Mexico ? We were not asked any such questions.

I'll defer to your local SRE office for specifics.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Thanks Lat19 for sharing your experience.. never a dull minute in Mexico as it is hard to know what to expect . As you said that was your experience in your area, it would be interesting to know what is going on in other areas. 
Good luck on your next fo around..
I wonder what the logic is in spacing a test on fluency a week apart Are you suppposed to have greatly improved in one week or the week is just to make people sweat it out before passing or it is to give another chance to people with a different test..Obviously the progress anyone can make in a week is nill..or next to nill


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## lat19n (Aug 19, 2017)

citlali said:


> Thanks Lat19 for sharing your experience.. never a dull minute in Mexico as it is hard to know what to expect . As you said that was your experience in your area, it would be interesting to know what is going on in other areas.
> Good luck on your next fo around..
> I wonder what the logic is in spacing a test on fluency a week apart Are you suppposed to have greatly improved in one week or the week is just to make people sweat it out before passing or it is to give another chance to people with a different test..Obviously the progress anyone can make in a week is nill..or next to nill


Yes - there are many different flavors of the tests we took. 

I agree that my understanding of the Spanish language really isn't going to change much in a month let alone a week to 10 days - BUT - we do NOW have a very clear understanding of what will be expected of us if/when we sit down for the next test. 

I do not understand exactly what is going on behind the curtain - but offices like our local SRE are referred to as sub-delegations. I'm going to assume that the delegation is in Mexico City (possibly Sr Videgaray's office). They appear to be having some sort of influence on us. I can only guess what that is.

If there is a bright spot in all this - at least we have not yet had to pay the 5000 peso fee.


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## lat19n (Aug 19, 2017)

I had some spare time today - and remembering one of the things I was asked on my test - I used the resources on the internet to see what would have helped me pass the test. Forget Spanish -I had trouble meeting those requirements in English. I did learn a lot in the process of my investigation - but I am sure I will forget it by morning. 

As we have already established - Mexico is perfectly correct in setting the standards to achieve citizenship - but I can promise you that not 1% of the people we live with in Mexico could answer some of these questions. My wife's test was different than mine - but I would have had to been brought up in Mexico as a child and fed folklore over many years (like Santa Claus) to have passed my test. (The way I see it).


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

lat19n said:


> I had some spare time today - and remembering one of the things I was asked on my test - I used the resources on the internet to see what would have helped me pass the test. Forget Spanish -I had trouble meeting those requirements in English. I did learn a lot in the process of my investigation - but I am sure I will forget it by morning.
> 
> As we have already established - Mexico is perfectly correct in setting the standards to achieve citizenship - but I can promise you that not 1% of the people we live with in Mexico could answer some of these questions. It is like (but in no way related) to asking a US citizen - what does the 3rd amendment to the US constitution assert ?


As a former Spanish teacher, I would love to see an example of a question from that test. Thanks!


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## lat19n (Aug 19, 2017)

Isla Verde said:


> As a former Spanish teacher, I would love to see an example of a question from that test. Thanks!


My wife also was a Spanish teacher (as a BA) before we met. She always wanted to apply her Spanish skills in business and after we got together she went nights/ weekends for her masters in international business. It is amazing the depth of the network she has created over the years.

Tomorrow looks to be a busy day - but I will try to put something together for your review via PM - actually I would enjoy a 3rd person opinion.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

If it can be a consolation the tests and the way to take them has varied widely since we came to Mexico..It is really crazy.. some years it had quesions that most Mexicans would not know the answer to and other times it has been very easy.. It seams to go by phases so it may be that we are entering a crack down time..
In the US I would bet that many US citizens could not pass the test either.. Pretty crazy..wait and it will change..


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## Lefthanded Gordie (Aug 15, 2017)

My oldest child is an attorney for the SRE in Colima. I had her query the local delegado about the language requirement for nationalization. They send applicants to the U of Colima language department where they use the DELE testing methods. It includes written and audio testing and concludes with an interview with the person administering the test. The SRE there has been a little flexible on the fluency level taking age into consideration according to the delegado. But they are looking for a DELE level B1 or better. My daughter couldn't confirm if that same criteria is applied nationwide.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

What is a DELE level B1??


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Sorry for asking I just googled it and listen to the texts.. They use SPanish from Spain rather than Mexican Spanish,,, good start to test people learning a language... I have no problems with Spanish from Spain because that is what was spoken around me when I was a kid but I would say that for people who are not used to it it is an extra handicap.. I only listen to a couple of exemple and it raised my curiosity and I am going to test myself for fun.
know the spoken and comprehension is not an issue for me but the written part is what will sink me ..ha ha.. I made the mistake of learning Spanish in an informal way and the classses were almost all oral so I could communicate quickly with workers , I never had to use much writing Spanish until now and nnow I am paying for it as it takes me a long time to comunicate in writing ..

I wonder if the Canadians test their students in French Canadian or in French from France.. The US test their students with in American English..


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Lefthanded Gordie said:


> My oldest child is an attorney for the SRE in Colima. I had her query the local delegado about the language requirement for nationalization. They send applicants to the U of Colima language department where they use the DELE testing methods. It includes written and audio testing and concludes with an interview with the person administering the test. The SRE there has been a little flexible on the fluency level taking age into consideration according to the delegado. But they are looking for a DELE level B1 or better. My daughter couldn't confirm if that same criteria is applied nationwide.


That sounds quite different from my experience with SRE in Guadalajara. I was never asked about either culture or language. All of my interaction with the SRE office was done by me personally, no facilitator or attorney, and was in Spanish. Apparently, that was sufficient for them.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

yes same here but who knows if things have changed.. A faction there was pushing for stronger rules and insisted people should be speaking Spanish..


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## lat19n (Aug 19, 2017)

After reading up on "DELE level B1" I have come to feel that WE are being treated with kid gloves. I just wish what we were/are being asked was more appropriate/pertinent to our real lives.


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## Lefthanded Gordie (Aug 15, 2017)

citlali said:


> Sorry for asking I just googled it and listen to the texts.. They use SPanish from Spain rather than Mexican Spanish,,, good start to test people learning a language... I have no problems with Spanish from Spain because that is what was spoken around me when I was a kid but I would say that for people who are not used to it it is an extra handicap.. I only listen to a couple of exemple and it raised my curiosity and I am going to test myself for fun.
> know the spoken and comprehension is not an issue for me but the written part is what will sink me ..ha ha.. I made the mistake of learning Spanish in an informal way and the classses were almost all oral so I could communicate quickly with workers , I never had to use much writing Spanish until now and nnow I am paying for it as it takes me a long time to comunicate in writing ..
> 
> I wonder if the Canadians test their students in French Canadian or in French from France.. The US test their students with in American English..


It really wasn't established how strictly they adhere to the DELE test. It was said they use the instructors of languages at the university to administer the exams. I imagine they could structure the exam to meet the language spoken in this country. Maybe it is based on the DELE methods but adapted for the Mexican dialect. The interview part could also be deemed the most important part.

But I found this from a page on the linked site:

"The DELE examinations have been designed following the guidelines of the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages (CEFR) of the Council of Europe, which ensures a practical way of establishing a *standard, international and objective measurement of the level* that should be reached at each teaching stage, and in evaluating results."

Also from a list of places in Mexico where they test on the same site:

DELE exam centers in Mexixo. Instituto Cervantes of Albuquerque.

Colima, Col.

Universidad de Colima
Facultad de Lenguas Extranjeras
Tel: +52 312 316 1179
Website: www.ucol.mx
Contact: José M. González Freire
Email: [email protected]


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## Lefthanded Gordie (Aug 15, 2017)

TundraGreen said:


> That sounds quite different from my experience with SRE in Guadalajara. I was never asked about either culture or language. All of my interaction with the SRE office was done by me personally, no facilitator or attorney, and was in Spanish. Apparently, that was sufficient for them.


Was this recently or has it been sometime since you went through the process?


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

The Spanish the Mexicans speak is Mexican Spanish I would not call it a dialect but a variant.. I do not call Canadian French or American English a dialect either..


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## lat19n (Aug 19, 2017)

I think my wife and I have been married for 35 years this year - I can remember the day but always have trouble with the year.

Over at least 30 of those years she worked day in and day out with people from Miami, Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Venezuela, Columbia, Chile, Peru and Argentina - and Germany. She corresponded in person, via email and via phone. 

To think that she is not fluent in Spanish - after living in Spain and Peru - is ludicrous. 

I seriously tried to convince my wife today to just go ahead with her nationalization process without me - figuring that at least she would be judged on her own language skills and not my lack thereof. She ain't hearing it.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

lat19n said:


> I think my wife and I have been married for 35 years this year - I can remember the day but always have trouble with the year.
> 
> Over at least 30 of those years she worked day in and day out with people from Miami, Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Venezuela, Columbia, Chile, Peru and Argentina - and Germany. She corresponded in person, via email and via phone.
> 
> ...


I'm a bit confused about the naturalization process for married couples. Do they apply as a team, or is each one judged on his or her own merits?


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Lefthanded Gordie said:


> Was this recently or has it been sometime since you went through the process?


I started in March of 2015 and my Carta de Naturalization is dated 2016-05-30.


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## lat19n (Aug 19, 2017)

Isla Verde said:


> I'm a bit confused about the naturalization process for married couples. Do they apply as a team, or is each one judged on his or her own merits?


Not clear. My wife went first. Everyone was happy when she finished up. The very nice woman up front was in the process of entering all my wife's information into her computer... Then I finished up and the very nice woman up front handed us back all our paperwork (literally pounds of it) and said she would call us when there was another opportunity.

Edit : but the applications themselves are very individual.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

lat19.. I was advise by a lawyer to go without my husband since my Spanish was way better , he then applied 2 years later and got in although his Spanish is pityful. Your wife should go alone, no question about it...and then you apply a year or 2 later.
People do not go as a team they apply individually but I do believe that going in separately is the way to go.


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## lat19n (Aug 19, 2017)

citlali said:


> lat19.. I was advise by a lawyer to go without my husband since my Spanish was way better , he then applied 2 years later and got in although his Spanish is pityful. Your wife should go alone, no question about it...and then you apply a year or 2 later.
> People do not go as a team they apply individually but I do believe that going in separately is the way to go.


I may have to send you her cell phone number to help me convince her 

Her latest idea was to put on a business suit on our next visit. I DO have a business suit (with wing-tip shoes) but I haven't put it on in at least 20 years.


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## Lefthanded Gordie (Aug 15, 2017)

citlali said:


> The Spanish the Mexicans speak is Mexican Spanish I would not call it a dialect but a variant.. I do not call Canadian French or American English a dialect either..


You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to. But it really doesn't matter, does it? 

There is an old joke among linguists about the difference between a language and a dialect. 

“a language is a dialect with an army and a navy.”

They also say if two related kinds of speech are so close that people can have a conversation and understand each other, they are dialects of a single language.

https://www.altalang.com/beyond-wor...lects-how-spanish-is-spoken-around-the-world/


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

lat19n said:


> Not clear. My wife went first. Everyone was happy when she finished up. The very nice woman up front was in the process of entering all my wife's information into her computer... Then I finished up and the very nice woman up front handed us back all our paperwork (literally pounds of it) and said she would call us when there was another opportunity.
> 
> Edit : but the applications themselves are very individual.


I don't really understand when you say they handed all the paperwork back. It took me lots of trips to get all the paperwork in order. I just kept going back with whatever changes they asked for until they finally agreed that everything was in order. To cite just one example, they wanted a copy of my then current visa card. The first time I just had a copy shop make a copy of both sides of it on a page, actual size. Then they said they wanted it blown up to full page size. So I came back with two pages each containing an enlarged version of one side of the visa card filling the whole page. Then they said, no, that still wasn't correct. It needed to have each side of the visa card blown up to half page size with the two sides of the visa card filling a single page. That happened with lots of things. I would give them something, they would tell me what was wrong with it, and I would go away, redo it, and come back. There was a long wait in the middle because I had to request some stuff from INM (Instituto Nacional Migración). I started in March, and finally turned in the final version in December. Then they sent it to INM for approval and it took about 5 more months before it was finally approved. There is a chronological listing of all the trips to SRE in my blog, linked in my signature here.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

ha ha of course the language of patois spoken in the Loire valley in France was chosen as the only real French and the English spoken by the king was the real English although English was a dialect by itself. and same in many countries where one variance was elevated to the original language .
It was all a political decision, however the word dialect has also a pejorative aspect to it and we do not call variance like American English or Mexican Spanish or French Canadian dialects.

As a kid I understood the dialect from the lande area and it helped me understand Spanish as it is somewhere between Spanish and French and some other language or maybe just Latin but I did not understand Basque that was the language spoken by my grandmother and her family so there was a distinction in my mind between dialect and language . The dialect from the southwest is a variance somewhere between French and Spanish when Basque is a totally different language.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Same thing with me.. I went back several times as SRE would not accept my married name and I did not want to add on my mothers name.. They just advised me what they would accept and what they would not accept but there was no load of paper involved. When we agreed on what I would call myself, we turned in the police records, apostilled papers and I got a notice via the internet to present myself 6 months later to sign off the papers associated with the naturalization.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

lat 19 I would say whatever works in your area... I do not own a business suit any more so I would have had a lot of trouble with that one..In our area jeans were fine but it sounds like every area has its own way to look at things.


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## Lefthanded Gordie (Aug 15, 2017)

citlali said:


> ha ha of course the language of patois spoken in the Loire valley in France was chosen as the only real French and the English spoken by the king was the real English although English was a dialect by itself. and same in many countries where one variance was elevated to the original language .
> It was all a political decision, however the word dialect has also a pejorative aspect to it and we do not call variance like American English or Mexican Spanish or French Canadian dialects.


You are entitled to your own choice of words. So are others. I assume you chose not to open the link that explained the different dialects of Spanish so I shall include another in español.

https://es.wikibooks.org/wiki/Español/Español_en_el_mundo

"Dialectos en América
Español amazónico, español andino, español antioqueño (paisa), español camba, español caleño, español cundiboyacense, español llanero, español caribeño, español cubano, español dominicano, español marabino, español panameño, español puertorriqueño, español venezolano, español centroamericano, español chileno, español chilote, español ecuatorial, español mexicano, español paraguayo, español peruano ribereño, español norperuano ribereño, español rioplatense, español santandereano-tachirense, español tolimense (opita) y español yucatec."


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## lat19n (Aug 19, 2017)

TundraGreen said:


> I don't really understand when you say they handed all the paperwork back. It took me lots of trips to get all the paperwork in order. I just kept going back with whatever changes they asked for until they finally agreed that everything was in order. To cite just one example, they wanted a copy of my then current visa card. The first time I just had a copy shop make a copy of both sides of it on a page, actual size. Then they said they wanted it blown up to full page size. So I came back with two pages each containing an enlarged version of one side of the visa card filling the whole page. Then they said, no, that still wasn't correct. It needed to have each side of the visa card blown up to half page size with the two sides of the visa card filling a single page. That happened with lots of things. I would give them something, they would tell me what was wrong with it, and I would go away, redo it, and come back. There was a long wait in the middle because I had to request some stuff from INM (Instituto Nacional Migración). I started in March, and finally turned in the final version in December. Then they sent it to INM for approval and it took about 5 more months before it was finally approved. There is a chronological listing of all the trips to SRE in my blog, linked in my signature here.


Sorry - I removed the post because it may have had too much personal info


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## lat19n (Aug 19, 2017)

My wife called SRE this morning and spoke to the woman at the front desk. She asked - my husband was wondering if the right thing to do would be to wait and let me complete the process first. The woman said - No. We will have to retake the language test - apparently showing improvement - which in my case shouldn't be that hard  We do have to wait 10 days before we can retake the test. And at some point we will have a personal interview with the Delgado. The woman assured my wife that she is pulling for us. Now we wait.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Sounds like they need to feel busy and useful so just go with the flow you will eventually pass.. Good luck to you both.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

At that rate español is a dialect of Latin itself a dialect of Indo EUropeo so there is not lnguage at all .


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## Lefthanded Gordie (Aug 15, 2017)

citlali said:


> At that rate español is a dialect of Latin itself a dialect of Indo EUropeo so there is not lnguage at all .


Whatever makes you happy.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

citlali said:


> At that rate español is a dialect of Latin itself a dialect of Indo EUropeo so there is not lnguage at all .


Not really. Students of language generally define dialects of one language as being mutually intelligible. This criteria doesn't work with Spanish and Latin though it does mean that I, as a speaker of Mexican Spanish should be able to understand Spanish-speakers from Argentina and Cuba, though that isn't always the case!


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

dialects in France are not understood by people who only speak official French.. . I do not understand Cajun or the patois in Haiti either and yet they are dialects..or most dialects in France.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

citlali said:


> dialects in France are not understood by people who only speak official French.. . I do not understand Cajun or the patois in Haiti either and yet they are dialects..or most dialects in France.


The line dividing dialect from language can be hard to determine, but if two dialects are not mutually intelligible then the so-called dialect is on the road to becoming a new language.


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## perropedorro (Mar 19, 2016)

Isla Verde said:


> The line dividing dialect from language can be hard to determine, but if two dialects are not mutually intelligible then the so-called dialect is on the road to becoming a new language.


 That's what I learned too, when I was paying attention in class. But I'm thinking that those rules of language drift and evolution have been radically impacted by modern telecommunications. Things aren't the same as 300 years ago when people in remote provinces, like Québec or Alta California, had limited contact from the motherland, the illiterate majority were left in their own language laboratory, and local dialects drifted far and wide. I'm guessing that now language forces are centripetal when seemingly every village in the jungle or desert has satellite TV with 500 channels.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I do not think any dialect is on its way to become a language except maybe the one used for texting....


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

citlali said:


> I do not think any dialect is on its way to become a language except maybe the one used for texting....


It's a process that could take a couple hundred years, so it's difficult to forecast what will happen that far into the future!


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Haitian Creole started as a dialect of French and was recognized as a separate language in either 1979 or 1987 depending on whether you use the date the French Pedagogical Institute or the Haitian government accepted it.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

lat19n said:


> I think someone should take all this talk of dialects etc and move them off into a new thread. I get it - you guys are all language gurus.


And proud of it!


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Thank you Tundra Green you make me feel better. a few years ago I was ask to help artisans from Haiti and I coudl get a few things but just very few.. now that I know it is a separate language I feel much better!! ha ha.
Do you know what people speak in Livingston, Guatemala? those guys got me too,, it sounds like Spanish with English and French words thrown in all that with an African rythm ...


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## xolo (May 25, 2014)

Isla Verde said:


> The line dividing dialect from language can be hard to determine, but if two dialects are not mutually intelligible then the so-called dialect is on the road to becoming a new language.


That's why INEGI says there are 70 indigenous languages in Mexico and INALI says there are 364 variants.

The Spanish word for dialect, _dialecto_, in Mexico is a pejorative. Most Mexicans don't even know that.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

xolo said:


> That's why INEGI says there are 70 indigenous languages in Mexico and INALI says there are 364 variants.
> 
> The Spanish word for dialect, _dialecto_, in Mexico is a pejorative. Most Mexicans don't even know that.


In Mexico, the word "dialecto" is used incorrectly to refer to indigenous languages, which are languages of their own, not related in any way to Spanish. Whether they are aware of it or not, I believe that when Mexicans refer to languages of indigenous Mexican peoples as "dialectos", they are thinking of them as something inferior to Spanish.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

citlali said:


> Thank you Tundra Green you make me feel better. a few years ago I was ask to help artisans from Haiti and I coudl get a few things but just very few.. now that I know it is a separate language I feel much better!! ha ha.
> Do you know what people speak in Livingston, Guatemala? those guys got me too,, it sounds like Spanish with English and French words thrown in all that with an African rythm ...


I have spent some time in the Dominican Republic. I find their Spanish very hard to understand. They drop all of the "s"s at the ends of words and a lots of other letters as well. The wikipedia page lists the differences.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominican_Spanish


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> I have spent some time in the Dominican Republic. I find their Spanish very hard to understand. They drop all of the "s"s at the ends of words and a lots of other letters as well. The wikipedia page lists the differences.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominican_Spanish



Cuban Spanish is like this too, but it more is a matter of pronunciation diferences, not of big differences in syntax and vocabulary.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

dialecte is pejorative in French as well. I checked the dialect I could understand when I was a kid and it is a variant of Occitan no wonder the French do not understand it.. it is another language although it was called a dialect when I was a kid..In France aything that was not the official French was looked down , for that reason my father and mny of his friends refused to learn Basque when they were kids as there was a stigma attached to anything that was not considered pure Fench.

Down here CELALI let me know rather quicly that Tzeltal and Tzotzil were languages and the differences between towns were called variants and not dialects.. I think that is the first thing I learned here...
It maybe why I would not call Mexican Spanish or French Canadian a dialect..


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## xolo (May 25, 2014)

Occitan is a romance language. I thought it was extinct. Did you speak Occitan or a related language as a child? So you are from southern France?

Mexicans are generally unaware of their biases in respect to indigenous languages, but that doesn't mean they don't have them, as you indicate.

Since 1794 until today France has had a monolingual policy in general, including public education. In France, Basque is in decline.

At the time of the French revolution, there were 30-60 _patois _(pejorative, right Citlali?) spoken in France. Only about 10% of the population spoke "French".

Well, Basque was deemed incapable of having a literature (never mind it was against the law to publish books in Basque). A very famous Basque author, Unamumo, worked very hard to exterminate Basque.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

The Basqye country is now "in" but a lot of the customs are disappearing.. I would stay that the Corsicans and Alsatians are probably the ones that continue to keep theur language alive but it is a loosing battle..
Yes the original langue d Óc is dead but there are still variants in the south of France or were.. As a child I spent vacations in the Arcachon area and spent all of my time with fishermen and they spoke a dialect of the south of France. My grand-father spoke a dialect from the Pyrenees and my grand.mother spoke Basque first and learned French as a second lamguage but by the time she died at 99 she could not speak Basque any longer, she still understood it but had lost the ability of speaking it as she did not speak it for years as she had moved to Provence something like 50 years before
I have not heard anyone speak the patois down south for years outside of the hymn Se Canta que cante I have not heard anyone having conversations in patois. Same with Provencal..All these languages are just as good as extinct if they are not already. Basque is still spoken, but less than it used to be at least in France.
By outlawing Basque Franco did help keep it alive as it was the language of resistance , but we did not have that incentive in France.. a shame because it is a beautiful language, It is a very difficult language to learn, the Basque have a saying that" God gave everyone a language but by the time he gave their language to the Basque his language bag was a mess and that is what we got.. The devil tried to learned Basque but he only learned 7 words in 7 years so he gave up .. so even the devil could not manged to learn it..


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## xolo (May 25, 2014)

That's really funny. I appreciate your linguistic and cultural background, really fascinating.

Basque is the only language native to Europe that is not Indo-European, I think it is an isolate and, well, nobody knows much about it because it was there before the Romans arrived. There's all kinds of theories about it.

When I told my niece that my colleague was "vasca" she couldn't stop laughing. I think she was confusing it with "basca".


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Yes funny I always say my name is from el pays Basco because I do not want to say I am vasca.. There is an expressin in France .. stupide comme une vache Espagnole.. dumb as a Spanish cow but it really is stupide comme un Basque Espagnol ..nothing pejoratif about that..There is a theory that Basque was one of the languages that preceeded Indo European .

Yesterday I was with a groupe of 12 Tzeltal women who told me that the Lic from the Casa de artesanias gave them a paper in Spanish to sign and told them to write it in their dialecto. I told them to tell the lic that they were sorry but they did not speak a dialect but a language .. they asked me the difference and I told them a dialecto was inferior to a language and they got the nuance really fast..now the poor lic is going to hear about it.. I have never heard the government people except the indigenous part of the government refer to indigenous languages other than dialectos.. I told the women to tell the lic he was discriminating against them when he said they spoke dialect... they call me wichil but my real name is trouble.. haha


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