# Do I need to be autónomo to sell products online?



## fishwebby (Aug 11, 2010)

Hi,

a (hopefully) simple question - if I want to sell products online, for example an ebook, do I need to be registered as an autónomo, or can I just declare the money I make from the sales when I do my tax return?


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## djfwells (Sep 28, 2009)

Which country do you buy from / sell to ?
Do you raise Facturas / Invoices for each sale ?
Do you purchase goods as a company or as an induvidual and recieve an Invoice ?


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

all good questions but in the end I suspect it would be very difficult for the Spanish authorities to find out especially as it apears to be impossible in UK and USA


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## djfwells (Sep 28, 2009)

...my point exactly. But without the paper trail it makes things so much easier to get away with, legal or illegal...


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## fishwebby (Aug 11, 2010)

Hmm, interesting points - I have since read that you do in fact need to be autónomo to register any form of income at all - however unless I'm making mucho € it's not worth it when you have to pay €254 per month social security. Also I do think it would be difficult for them to find out if I'm selling online (e.g. on lulu.com), but I don't like the idea of not doing it legally (although, when in Rome...)


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

fishwebby said:


> Hmm, interesting points - I have since read that you do in fact need to be autónomo to register any form of income at all - however unless I'm making mucho € it's not worth it when you have to pay €254 per month social security. Also I do think it would be difficult for them to find out if I'm selling online (e.g. on lulu.com), but I don't like the idea of not doing it legally (although, when in Rome...)



Yes, but the "romans" are getting caught!!! There is a drive in Spain to clamp down on tax evasion and you will have to fill out a tax return form each year. The autonomo thing is daft and needs changing, paying the same amount each month regardless of income or not is very unfair

Jo xxx


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## fishwebby (Aug 11, 2010)

Good to know, thanks Jo - although I never liked the idea of doing it "below board" anyway. And yes, I agree the autónomo system has a lot of room for improvement - if they want to encourage small businesses to start up they need to do something about that!

Cheers
Dave


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

fishwebby said:


> Good to know, thanks Jo - although I never liked the idea of doing it "below board" anyway. And yes, I agree the autónomo system has a lot of room for improvement - if they want to encourage small businesses to start up they need to do something about that!
> 
> Cheers
> Dave


I also posted a note on that flat rate charge being unfair some time ago. I want to move to Spain later this year, but want to work as I am now, part time self employed.
Right now I'm 100% legal in the UK, but to work the same hours/pay in Spain I would have to fork out the extra 254 euros ish every month before I've made a penny!

Spain really needs to scrap that autónomo tax IMHO and encourage lots of small businesses to start up. I don't know the numbers but small businesses in the UK at least employs the majority of people in work (so I heard) and the US, is this the same in Spain? 

On a quick google I found these stats for the US..
Small Business | Resources | Hampton Roads Chamber of Commerce

Was hoping to find something side by side for all countries, maybe someone can help with that!
It might be a system that works but like others have said it is unfair also.
I'm sure it puts many people off starting a legal upfront small business which would really help Spain's economy and in the end everyone!

Does anyone think its a good system?
Maybe a pole whether to keep or scrap that flat rate charge would clarify how the majority of people on here at least feels about it?
And what system would you replace it with?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Muddy said:


> I also posted a note on that flat rate charge being unfair some time ago. I want to move to Spain later this year, but want to work as I am now, part time self employed.
> Right now I'm 100% legal in the UK, but to work the same hours/pay in Spain I would have to fork out the extra 254 euros ish every month before I've made a penny!
> 
> Spain really needs to scrap that autónomo tax IMHO and encourage lots of small businesses to start up. I don't know the numbers but small businesses in the UK at least employs the majority of people in work (so I heard) and the US, is this the same in Spain?
> ...


I don't think we need a poll - I don't think many if any of us would agree that it seems fair - it's a huge amount of money for a just starting out self employed person to find every month

I think a percentage of income NI payment would be fairer - it just seems wrong that someone earning, say, 1000€ a month is having to pay out the same as someone earning 10 times that!


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## djfwells (Sep 28, 2009)

Without wishing to go into the moral or legal implications, the practicalities are pretty much this : If you receive payments via Paypal, as an American entity they have no obligatio to provide and financial data to either the Spanish or UK authorities. If you also do not produce any Invoice, statement or receipt, how else can the authortities proove that you are trading ?


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> I don't think we need a poll - I don't think many if any of us would agree that it seems fair - it's a huge amount of money for a just starting out self employed person to find every month
> 
> I think a percentage of income NI payment would be fairer - it just seems wrong that someone earning, say, 1000€ a month is having to pay out the same as someone earning 10 times that!


Yeah I guess a poll (and not a pole lol) wouldn't help as a lot of peeps on here maybe retired so not that much interest, and in any case it's most would probably agree it is very unfair!..
For me it is a big problem and like you said a percentage of income would be better.
I invoice everything so unless companies would be willing to pay cash (very unlikely) I'm going to be very out of pocket. In any case I really shouldn't have to break the law because of an unfair tax.
But this is Spain, so for now it's like it or lump it I guess!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Muddy said:


> Yeah I guess a poll (and not a pole lol) wouldn't help as a lot of peeps on here maybe retired so not that much interest, and in any case it's most would probably agree it is very unfair!..
> For me it is a big problem and like you said a percentage of income would be better.
> I invoice everything so unless companies would be willing to pay cash (very unlikely) I'm going to be very out of pocket. In any case I really shouldn't have to break the law because of an unfair tax.
> But this is Spain, so for now it's like it or lump it I guess!


actually we had a 'census' on here a while ago http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/72406-spain-2011-census.html

more than half of those who took part do in fact work (or want to/need to) - either here in Spain or 'commuting' to elsewhere


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

Muddy said:


> Yeah I guess a poll (and not a pole lol) wouldn't help as a lot of peeps on here maybe retired so not that much interest, and in any case it's most would probably agree it is very unfair!..
> For me it is a big problem and like you said a percentage of income would be better.
> I invoice everything so unless companies would be willing to pay cash (very unlikely) I'm going to be very out of pocket. In any case I really shouldn't have to break the law because of an unfair tax.
> But this is Spain, so for now it's like it or lump it I guess!



Hi,
I think the autonomo minimum is getting a very rough deal due to a lack of understanding. First of all, I hate the way there is nothing that allows a person doing the odd project/job etc., can use - and that is bad. If you're not autonomo, you can't do a side job as an IT person for a friend or company other that in the black... that's bad. 

But, the true Autonomo (delf employed person) has very little to gripe about. Believe me, I was an IT contractor in the UK for many years and once HMRC closed down schedule D to all but self employed plumbers and electricians, it became a pain in the rear, and nothing to do with 250€ a month cost wise..... and it was then we saw the birth of the "Unbrella company" and the closure of so many single person Ltd company.

The 250€ per month includes a pension payment. Many who are Autonomo and reach retirement age, are heard bleeting in bars about how crap their government pension is and *****ing about the guy retired with €1500 a month - not realising that he was paying 500-600€ per month into his Seguridd Social every month. The Autonomo not only gets Health cover for him and all his family, but also a 600€ or so pension a month. Not bad for £200 a month. I doubt if the avergade money purchase pension sche in the UK would guarantee £600 a month for a 200 a month payment - unless you start young.

So, the Autonomo route means selling on the web and Invoicing will be legal. After all, in the UK - how does one Invoice for their work if they're not a company or self employed?


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## chrisnation (Mar 2, 2009)

*Tax/Pension/Contributions*



Xose said:


> Hi,
> I think the autonomo minimum is getting a very rough deal due to a lack of understanding. First of all, I hate the way there is nothing that allows a person doing the odd project/job etc., can use - and that is bad. If you're not autonomo, you can't do a side job as an IT person for a friend or company other that in the black... that's bad.
> 
> But, the true Autonomo (delf employed person) has very little to gripe about. Believe me, I was an IT contractor in the UK for many years and once HMRC closed down schedule D to all but self employed plumbers and electricians, it became a pain in the rear, and nothing to do with 250€ a month cost wise..... and it was then we saw the birth of the "Unbrella company" and the closure of so many single person Ltd company.
> ...


Can the Spanish economy afford to run its Social Security system like that any more? Two things are happening. One is that the working population, whose contributions are funding today's pensions, is declining and secondly, it seems clear that the Spanish politicos will have to loosen up the red tape that discourages small business, from the one-man-band up. In the conditions of the economy a.t.m. it might not be a bad time to start.

I've been self employed all my working life. I thought the UK's flat-rate Class 4 + 6% of net profit was a reasonable deal.


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