# Marriage questions



## sabah

Sorry to bring up the tired topic of marriage again but I have a few questions so if you could bear with me for a bit ...

I have visited Egypt many times over the last decade. I met someone more than a year ago and that relationship has become romantic. I'm not a big fan of marriage (no particular reason, I just don't see my life like that) but because it will facilitate our staying and travelling together I am considering it.

I'm not interested in getting married the consular route. The alternative seems to be the 'green paper' lawyer route. My understanding is this marriage is registered in the courts so is legal and will be accepted by flat owners and hotels. My concern is if the marriage is registered what repercussions can there be for me, particularly:

1. If I subsequently come to Egypt to work with an international organization, will I be considered to have a spouse who is an Egyptian national and what impact might that have?

2. If I subsequently acquire property in Egypt (bank account, real estate), what rights might he have with respect to that property?

3. I I subsequently find that it doesn't work out and want a divorce, how easy/difficult is it to make that happen?

As I am a seasoned Egypt traveller, I have heard/read all the horror stories about foreign women and Egyptian men and _am not looking for more warnings and advice about these relationships_. But Egyptian marriage arrangements are much more complex than I am used to, and I want to be sure I fully understand what I am getting into before I proceed.

Thanks for any insights you can provide.


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## PaulAshton

As you are a US citizen see your travel state gov website, it will give you all information about marriage

Here is your link on marriage

http://egypt.usembassy.gov/consular/acs12.html

Egypt *(click on this link)
*
It also comes with this warning about "visa seekers"

If you have a child and it does not work out there can be further complications.

Many people will say run as fast as you can before it's too late as there are more heart break stories than success stories, many times they will remain quiet about the aspect of visa until you are married then it will crop up.

If you are coming to Egypt come because you love Egypt and for no other reason

I hear and see this things all the time

Egyptian men are the most charming guys and the worlds best actors

You did not want to see a warning but here is an official one from the US government so take extra heed

*
"Many marriages between Egyptians and U.S. citizens are successful. However, the Embassy warns against marriage fraud on the part of the U.S. citizen or the Egyptian. Entering into a marriage contract for the principal purpose of facilitating immigration to the United States for an alien is against U.S. law and can result in serious penalties, including fines and imprisonment for the U.S. citizen and the Egyptian. At the same time, it is not uncommon for Egyptians to enter into marriages with U.S. citizens solely for immigration purposes. Relationships developed via correspondence, particularly those begun on the Internet, are particularly susceptible to manipulation. The U.S. government urges U.S. citizens who meet Egyptians on the Internet or while touring the country to take the time necessary to get to know them before considering marriage. Unfortunately, the Embassy sees many cases of abuse against U.S. citizen spouses and often those marriages end in divorce when the Egyptian acquires permanent residency (a “green card”) or citizenship in the United States. These cases invariably occur when the relationship is based mostly on Internet communication and very little face-to-face interaction"*


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## Helen Ellis

A friend of mine divorced recently and as far as I am aware all she did was inform her lawyer that both copies of the marriage certificate had been destroyed. And that was that! Had she stayed married, and if they had lived together for 2 years in together in the flat she purchased, he would have had a claim on it. It would be a good idea for you to keep hold of the original certificates so that you can divorce when you want to. She had one of the Orfi marriages.


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## hurghadapat

sabah said:


> Sorry to bring up the tired topic of marriage again but I have a few questions so if you could bear with me for a bit ...
> 
> I have visited Egypt many times over the last decade. I met someone more than a year ago and that relationship has become romantic. I'm not a big fan of marriage (no particular reason, I just don't see my life like that) but because it will facilitate our staying and travelling together I am considering it.
> 
> I'm not interested in getting married the consular route. The alternative seems to be the 'green paper' lawyer route. My understanding is this marriage is registered in the courts so is legal and will be accepted by flat owners and hotels. My concern is if the marriage is registered what repercussions can there be for me, particularly:
> 
> 1. If I subsequently come to Egypt to work with an international organization, will I be considered to have a spouse who is an Egyptian national and what impact might that have?
> 
> 2. If I subsequently acquire property in Egypt (bank account, real estate), what rights might he have with respect to that property?
> 
> 3. I I subsequently find that it doesn't work out and want a divorce, how easy/difficult is it to make that happen?
> 
> As I am a seasoned Egypt traveller, I have heard/read all the horror stories about foreign women and Egyptian men and _am not looking for more warnings and advice about these relationships_. But Egyptian marriage arrangements are much more complex than I am used to, and I want to be sure I fully understand what I am getting into before I proceed.
> 
> Thanks for any insights you can provide.


You will find orfi marriages are very hard to define as everyone seems to have a different story...but here is some info that might be useful.The common law or traditional marriage (Orfi) consists of a simple contract drawn beteen the 2 partners and witnessed by 2 witnesses (a woman is counted as only 1/2 witness according to the islamic law).

This contract can be registered in the court (Sakha wi Nafas). This doesn't give any additional rights, simply the partners cannot deny having signed the contract.

Some hotels don't accept the simple contract and ask for the registered one. But I have read that the Ministry of Tourims has cancelled the obligation for Egyptians to present a marriage certificate in the hotels. Whether this is really applied is another question?

The Orfi marriage gives the woman nearly no rights. At least, since the newest law 1/2000, she can apply for divorce. But this is a lengthy procedure in court. The man can divorce easily by pronouncing the divorce in front of the wife and 2 witnesses.

As far as I know, the Orfi marriage is not recognized by the churches. It is not recognized in other countries.

But, the 'Orfi' Marriage isn't a simple paper, it is a legally valid marriage in Egypt. This is often misunderstood. I have heard of the case of a foreign lady who was still married in her home country and then concluded an 'Orfi' marriage in Egypt. Somebody filed a case against her and she went to prison for bigamy!

If you want to go into this adventure, I recommend that you sign the marriage contract in one single copy that you keep with you, safely locked in a place where your husband has no access (together with your passport, never give the passport out of your hands).

When you travel or if your husband wants a copy, simply use a photocopy.

In case of difficulties you can then simply tear up the paper


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## marenostrum

hurghadapat said:


> You will find orfi marriages are very hard to define as everyone seems to have a different story...but here is some info that might be useful.The common law or traditional marriage (Orfi) consists of a simple contract drawn beteen the 2 partners and witnessed by 2 witnesses (a woman is counted as only 1/2 witness according to the islamic law).
> 
> This contract can be registered in the court (Sakha wi Nafas). This doesn't give any additional rights, simply the partners cannot deny having signed the contract.
> 
> Some hotels don't accept the simple contract and ask for the registered one. But I have read that the Ministry of Tourims has cancelled the obligation for Egyptians to present a marriage certificate in the hotels. Whether this is really applied is another question?
> 
> The Orfi marriage gives the woman nearly no rights. At least, since the newest law 1/2000, she can apply for divorce. But this is a lengthy procedure in court. The man can divorce easily by pronouncing the divorce in front of the wife and 2 witnesses.
> 
> As far as I know, the Orfi marriage is not recognized by the churches. It is not recognized in other countries.
> 
> But, the 'Orfi' Marriage isn't a simple paper, it is a legally valid marriage in Egypt. This is often misunderstood. I have heard of the case of a foreign lady who was still married in her home country and then concluded an 'Orfi' marriage in Egypt. Somebody filed a case against her and she went to prison for bigamy!
> 
> If you want to go into this adventure, I recommend that you sign the marriage contract in one single copy that you keep with you, safely locked in a place where your husband has no access (together with your passport, never give the passport out of your hands).
> 
> When you travel or if your husband wants a copy, simply use a photocopy.
> 
> In case of difficulties you can then simply tear up the paper


Pat i know you are writing this in good faith but I think we should be telling people NOT to even contemplate getting into an orfi marriage situation.

This orfi marriage is nothing but a f....k paper and that is how it is called in Egypt.
Foreign women use it mostly so that they can sneek to their hotel bedroom with their egyptian boyfriend in the resorts. Locally this trend has caused many problems for many women.

The lady who initiated the thread should avoid an Orfi situation at all costs.


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## hurghadapat

marenostrum said:


> Pat i know you are writing this in good faith but I think we should be telling people NOT to even contemplate getting into an orfi marriage situation.
> 
> This orfi marriage is nothing but a f....k paper and that is how it is called in Egypt.
> Foreign women use it mostly so that they can sneek to their hotel bedroom with their egyptian boyfriend in the resorts. Locally this trend has caused many problems for many women.
> 
> The lady who initiated the thread should avoid an Orfi situation at all costs.


The person in question was asking about Orfi marriages....i replied to her question with info about Orfi's.

It is not my place or anyone elses to tell her what to do or not to do she is an adult and quite capable of making her own decisions i would assume.

I also know several people who have Orfi marriages and have been married happily for quite some time .They used that method for reasons of their own and certainly not as a f**k paper,so please don't tar everyone with the same brush.


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## hurghadapat

marenostrum said:


> Pat i know you are writing this in good faith but I think we should be telling people NOT to even contemplate getting into an orfi marriage situation.
> 
> This orfi marriage is nothing but a f....k paper and that is how it is called in Egypt.
> Foreign women use it mostly so that they can sneek to their hotel bedroom with their egyptian boyfriend in the resorts. Locally this trend has caused many problems for many women.
> 
> The lady who initiated the thread should avoid an Orfi situation at all costs.


I have just re-read her post and maybe you should also.


As I am a seasoned Egypt traveller, I have heard/read all the horror stories about foreign women and Egyptian men and am not looking for more warnings and advice about these relationships. But Egyptian marriage arrangements are much more complex than I am used to, and I want to be sure I fully understand what I am getting into before I proceed.


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## Helen Ellis

marenostrum said:


> Pat i know you are writing this in good faith but I think we should be telling people NOT to even contemplate getting into an orfi marriage situation.
> 
> This orfi marriage is nothing but a f....k paper and that is how it is called in Egypt.
> Foreign women use it mostly so that they can sneek to their hotel bedroom with their egyptian boyfriend in the resorts. Locally this trend has caused many problems for many women.
> 
> The lady who initiated the thread should avoid an Orfi situation at all costs.


So what would you suggest she does instead? She wants to be able to travel around Egypt and stay in hotels or rent an apartment with her boyfriend, something that in Europe we can do quite freely, and indeed two Expats can do in Egypt without having to be married. Surely an Orfi marriage is the solution as long as she retains control of the paperwork so the marriage can be ended when she chooses.


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## NHgirl

Besides an orfi, what are her options?


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## MaidenScotland

NHgirl said:


> Besides an orfi, what are her options?



Get a single room


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## Guest

NHgirl said:


> Besides an orfi, what are her options?


Egypt ion registry office marriage


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## hurghadapat

farrell said:


> Egypt ion registry office marriage


Which is exactly what.....in egypt you have an orfi which can or cannot be registered in the court or an official marriage which involves the following:-

You must take the papers mentioned below to the UK embassy in Cairo in order to make a statutory declaration before a consular official that you are free to marry. A fee will be charged.
The statutory declaration is valid for 1 month.
You must then take your statutory declaration to the Egyptian Ministry of Foreign Affairs to be legalised.
Once your declaration has been legalised you can then take the papers below to the Notary Public’s Office at the Ministry of Justice in Cairo for a civil ceremony. The ceremony will be conducted in Arabic so you may wish to have an interpreter.

You can then if you wish have the marriage registered in your own country.

I have used the uk as an example but the same applies no matter which country you come from.


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## expatagogo

hurghadapat said:


> Which is exactly what.....in egypt you have an orfi which can or cannot be registered in the court or an official marriage which involves the following:-
> 
> You must take the papers mentioned below to the UK embassy in Cairo in order to make a statutory declaration before a consular official that you are free to marry. A fee will be charged.
> The statutory declaration is valid for 1 month.
> You must then take your statutory declaration to the Egyptian Ministry of Foreign Affairs to be legalised.
> Once your declaration has been legalised you can then take the papers below to the Notary Public’s Office at the Ministry of Justice in Cairo for a civil ceremony. The ceremony will be conducted in Arabic so you may wish to have an interpreter.
> 
> You can then if you wish have the marriage registered in your own country.
> 
> I have used the uk as an example but the same applies no matter which country you come from.


True, however the marriage can take place at any Ministry of Justice location, not only in Cairo, and can be registered at the foreign spouse's Embassy in Egypt.

The marriage contract will also be solely in Arabic, so it's a good idea to have it translated and looked over before it's signed at the Ministry of Justice. The entire affair at the Ministry of Justice is not a celebratory wedding type of affair; it's quite literally a contract signing.


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## hurghadapat

expatagogo said:


> True, however the marriage can take place at any Ministry of Justice location, not only in Cairo, and can be registered at the foreign spouse's Embassy in Egypt.
> 
> The marriage contract will also be solely in Arabic, so it's a good idea to have it translated and looked over before it's signed at the Ministry of Justice. The entire affair at the Ministry of Justice is not a celebratory wedding type of affair; it's quite literally a contract signing.


I maybe right....but also i may be wrong....but pretty sure the only Ministry of Justice is in Cairo...may be one in Alexandria...but know if you live in Hurghada or Luxor you have to go to Cairo to do this marriage.


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## expatagogo

hurghadapat said:


> I maybe right....but also i may be wrong....but pretty sure the only Ministry of Justice is in Cairo...may be one in Alexandria...but know if you live in Hurghada or Luxor you have to go to Cairo to do this marriage.


There is one in Alexandria. That's where I got hitched.


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## hhaddad

Helen Ellis said:


> So what would you suggest she does instead? She wants to be able to travel around Egypt and stay in hotels or rent an apartment with her boyfriend, something that in Europe we can do quite freely, and indeed two Expats can do in Egypt without having to be married. Surely an Orfi marriage is the solution as long as she retains control of the paperwork so the marriage can be ended when she chooses.


The 'Orfi' marriage is a common law marriage. In Islam this kind of marriage is accepted and sufficient* if it is publicly announced*. I think this is the reason that this kind of marriage is still written in the law, despite all the problems it poses with misuse. If your new "husband" denies your request for wedding party and celebration then he is not taking the Orfi marriage seriously. It's a big red flag if he wants to keep the marriage a secret and in Egypt this means that your marriage won't be publicly recognised and therefore under Islam, not a true marriage.
This kind of marriage used to be concluded in out of the way rural villages that had no access to a mazoun (Imam). In recent times however, this kind of marriage has been misused giving it a very bad image. However, it can be a satisfying arrangement for some Egyptian/foreign couples. The phenomenon of misuse is mainly known in the tourist areas such as Sharm, Hurghada and Luxor.
In Egyptian society, the 'Orfi' marriage is mainly used by young people to circumvent the prohibition of pre-marital sex. A proper marriage is costly and time consuming, so they sign an 'Orfi' certificate with their sweethearts to satisfy the moral and religious (as well as legal) standards. But they normally keep this secret and a lot of problems arise from these marriages. The girl gets pregnant, the man leaves her without giving her a divorce (she will not be able to marry again) and he refuses to marry her properly later because she isn't a virgin anymore and so on.
All of these associated problems have made that the 'Orfi' marriage is considered a form of prostitution.
When foreigners are concerned (especially older foreign women) it has become a way for young Egyptian men to come to some money and a better standard of living and that is to marry a foreign woman in an Orfi marriage.
These are not "scare" tactics but actual facts for you all to consider.


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