# Consequences of not registering



## Rabbitcat

I KNOW that one must complete registration as resident after 90 days etc but having read widely differing views/ experiences on other forums, what's the REALITY of consequences for those who dodge registering?

Fines seem extremely rare, expulsion unheard of etc- so without the bluster of what COULD happen whats the on the ground experience?

We all know 1000s upon 1000s don't bother their backsides and its quite obviously a very low priority for the authorities. 

I am NOT advocating illegality but just trying to sift the fact from the fiction, what actually happens as opposed to what many wish would happen.

Let's hear it folks


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## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> I KNOW that one must complete registration as resident after 90 days etc but having read widely differing views/ experiences on other forums, what's the REALITY of consequences for those who dodge registering?
> 
> Fines seem extremely rare, expulsion unheard of etc- so without the bluster of what COULD happen whats the on the ground experience?
> 
> We all know 1000s upon 1000s don't bother their backsides and its quite obviously a very low priority for the authorities.
> 
> I am NOT advocating illegality but just trying to sift the fact from the fiction, what actually happens as opposed to what many wish would happen.
> 
> Let's hear it folks


Most probably nothing.
Thousands of robbers, muggers and tax cheats don't get caught either.
Nothing like the same scale, I know, but the same principle?


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## Rabbitcat

Yeah I was hoping to avoid " emotional commentary" and just try and get to the actual experience on the ground.

Obviously one would be daft not to comply- pretty straightforward ( generally but some definite anomalies ) but I just find the whole scenario of the authorities not fussed on enforcing the somewhat unenforceable - somewhat bemusing.

I come to this from a totally different scenario whereby in my current non EU host country the matter is treated with extreme seriousness with arrest at the airport, fines and expulsion very much the norm . I do therefore find the reluctant enforcement of these matters quite quaint


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## Helenameva

I don't understand how people who don't do everything properly manage with things like going to the doctors or hospital, buy anything that needs an NIE, even receive a parcel from MRW. 

What happens if they get picked up by the fuzz? [insert joke here] Or get a job? Do they have forged papers or just lie and wing it? 

It seems quite hard and risky to not do it properly. Maybe the fact you don't get fined or chucked out means you just put up with the hassle and a slap on the wrist occasionally and hope you have time to fly back to your home country if you are poorly.


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## Rabbitcat

Have to agree Helen it does seem a lot of ( potential ) hassle / worry to put up with, although they can still have their NIE and if not working and no kids less problems there too


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## mrypg9

There is also the point that by not registering as resident or on the padron you are freeloading - enjoying services you aren't contributing to.
If your house or flat catches fire the bomberos will come to put it out. If you have a road traffic accident an ambulance will scrape you up and take you to hospital to be cared for, in Andalucia at least. You will be driving your car on roads paid for by other taxpayers. If you are assaulted or burgled, the police will come to investigate....all these and many other things: the clean streets, the beaches,rubbish disposal.
The town hall receives funding based on population count so if you don't register on the padron then you are depriving them of your 'contribution'.
Not everyone will have a guilt trip about this but imo it's living off Spain, not living in Spain.


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## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> There is also the point that by not registering as resident or on the padron you are freeloading - enjoying services you aren't contributing to.
> If your house or flat catches fire the bomberos will come to put it out. If you have a road traffic accident an ambulance will scrape you up and take you to hospital to be cared for, in Andalucia at least. You will be driving your car on roads paid for by other taxpayers. If you are assaulted or burgled, the police will come to investigate....all these and many other things: the clean streets, the beaches,rubbish disposal.
> The town hall receives funding based on population count so if you don't register on the padron then you are depriving them of your 'contribution'.
> Not everyone will have a guilt trip about this but imo it's living off Spain, not living in Spain.


All very true, and it also annoys me when those who are in that position, or planning to be, say "well we do pay taxes in Spain, we pay IVA on everything we buy". Well those of us who live here legally do that too, AS WELL AS paying income tax. It is meant to be both, not one or the other, and as you say, not being on the padrón deprives the town where you are living of much needed funding.


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## Rabbitcat

Totally agree with most of what you say Mary.

I reckon its just me being used to these rules being rigorously enforced here for past 10 years the lax attitudes of the authorities with enforcement and disregard for the rules by so many in Spain just make it seem pointless to me


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## 90199

Here there is a financial incentive to register as a resident, up to 70% discount on travel costs throughout Spanish territories. People here register even if they live in Europe and are here only for holidays.


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## deefitz

Lynn R said:


> All very true, and it also annoys me when those who are in that position, or planning to be, say "well we do pay taxes in Spain, we pay IVA on everything we buy". *Well those of us who live here legally do that too, AS WELL AS paying income tax.* It is meant to be both, not one or the other, and as you say, not being on the padrón deprives the town where you are living of much needed funding.


Can you just clear something up please? The original post refers to "registration as resident after 90 days" and your post mentions "paying income tax". I didn't think you would start paying income tax until you become 'financially (tax) resident' at 180 days?


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## VFR

Rabbitcat said:


> I KNOW that one must complete registration as resident after 90 days etc but having read widely differing views/ experiences on other forums, what's the REALITY of consequences for those who dodge registering?
> 
> Fines seem extremely rare, expulsion unheard of etc- so without the bluster of what COULD happen whats the on the ground experience?
> 
> We all know 1000s upon 1000s don't bother their backsides and its quite obviously a very low priority for the authorities.
> 
> I am NOT advocating illegality but just trying to sift the fact from the fiction, what actually happens as opposed to what many wish would happen.
> 
> Let's hear it folks


Nothing ! (plain & simple)


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## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> Totally agree with most of what you say Mary.
> 
> I reckon its just me being used to these rules being rigorously enforced here for past 10 years the lax attitudes of the authorities with enforcement and disregard for the rules by so many in Spain just make it seem pointless to me


Are you really in Burkino Faso?


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## Lolito

I am not entirely sure why people refuse to register as residents in Spain if they come to live in Spain? That's the first thing I did when i moved to the UK and I did it only a few days after my arrival. 

After all, if you move to Spain and don't register as resident, it looks to me as if you got something to hide, lol! 

I need the empadronamiento for so many things, i have lost count really, so I don't know how other people manage to live in Spain for so long without registering.


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## angil

Helenameva said:


> I don't understand how people who don't do everything properly manage with things like going to the doctors or hospital, buy anything that needs an NIE, even receive a parcel from MRW.
> 
> What happens if they get picked up by the fuzz? [insert joke here] Or get a job? Do they have forged papers or just lie and wing it?
> 
> It seems quite hard and risky to not do it properly. Maybe the fact you don't get fined or chucked out means you just put up with the hassle and a slap on the wrist occasionally and hope you have time to fly back to your home country if you are poorly.


'My' lovely little MRW men prefer my passport, they, nor I (without my uber strong reading glasses!) can't make out the number on my NIE.

The 'fuzz' (& anyone else in 'authority') will only accept your passport as an official form of ID.

Doctors? Can't you just pay as you go?

Really look around you people do you honestly think the vast majority of non Spanish people living in Spain 'specially the Costas are here in anyway shape or form legally??!

I am! As are my children. But, hey would it make a jot of difference if we weren't. At this point my answer would be "no".


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## Rabbitcat

Angil that's exactly what I am getting at. 

If there's no " real" detriment I can see why so many do not bother


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## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> Angil that's exactly what I am getting at.
> 
> If there's no " real" detriment I can see why so many do not bother


There's no ' deteriment' to them, true. But they are freeloaders, pure and simple.
Don't you think a country should know who is living within its borders?
I think the majority do conform to the rules. It just seems that Spain attracts a certain kind of the 'I'll do as I please' element,the kind who dodge taxes, drive UK plated cars, don't register....


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## Rabbitcat

mrypg9 said:


> Are you really in Burkino Faso?


The country where I have experience of rigorous enforcement of residency law is Turkey.

I am not currently in Burkino Faso- I change my home country profile regularly as a security measure to thwart CIA, KGB and double glazing sales people


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## snikpoh

deefitz said:


> Can you just clear something up please? The original post refers to "registration as resident after 90 days" and your post mentions "paying income tax". I didn't think you would start paying income tax until you become 'financially (tax) resident' at 180 days?


Just to clarify for you;


You should register on the list of foreigners and get your certificate of registration *WITHIN *90 days of arriving.
After 183 days (in a calendar year) of being here (can be less), you are automatically deemed tax resident.

These are two completely different situations.


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## Rabbitcat

Surely that's 90 CONSECUTIVE days

In other words it's quite possible one can be tax resident but no need to register as a resident


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## Allie-P

We know about a dozen other UK couples, locally, who, like us, have moved to Spain permanently. 

Only one pair have registered their residence and a proportion of them have bought their own homes !!


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## Rabbitcat

Yes my initial research in a couple of areas just talking generally to ex pats really does show a very different approach to officialdom than that expressed on this forum

Again I am not condoning, just observing


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## Lynn R

Rabbitcat said:


> Yes my initial research in a couple of areas just talking generally to ex pats really does show a very different approach to officialdom than that expressed on this forum
> 
> Again I am not condoning, just observing


Which is one reason why I have little to do with the majority of expats I run into here, once I've met them and they have demonstrated that their attitude and values are very different from mine. They'll get no help or advice on how to go about their ducking and diving lifestyle from me. Want somebody to translate a letter for them or go to the hospital with them if they need treatment and want to use their EHIC card and pretend they're a tourist? No way, look elsewhere for a mug.


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## Rabbitcat

I cannot disagree with your sentiment- no one like freeloaders

However some of those I have spoken to casually seem more of the couldn't be bothered/ don't see the point/ no real advantage, even didn't know we really had to- attitude rather than low lifes or criminal types 

Take some elderly couples who maybe got them self a flat for a few years in Benidorm or somewhere. Not all of those in that position would necessarily know or feel obliged to go through the rigours of residency or even possibly tax registration- and quite frankly especially with the former wrongdoing, are the authorities really that bothered ?

My point I suppose is for EU citizens it all seems a bit pointless red tape- especially as its quite clear that's how the authorities generally view it- certainly cannot see a swat team kicking in Maisie and Wilberts flat front door on a pre dawn raid rounding up those failing to register for residency


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## Lynn R

Rabbitcat said:


> However some of those I have spoken to casually seem more of the couldn't be bothered/ don't see the point/ no real advantage, even didn't know we really had to- attitude rather than low lifes or criminal types
> 
> Take some elderly couples who maybe got them self a flat for a few years in Benidorm or somewhere. Not all of those in that position would necessarily know or feel obliged to go through the rigours of residency or even possibly tax registration- and quite frankly especially with the former wrongdoing, are the authorities really that bothered ?


Whether they can be bothered, don't see the point or there's no advantage in it for them (when in some circumstance, like being on the padron, where there would be an advantage for the town they're living in and using the facilities of) is not the point, is it? Laws and regulations are not optional, and I invariably find that the people who seem to think they are (in their own case at least) are the ones who should loudest about immigrants who go to live in their country and don't follow the rules, which is a hypocrisy I can't abide.

Those elderly couples in Benidorm or wherever would have to register anyway or they wouldn't be able to use their S1 forms to access free healthcare - which, as Extranjero mentioned in another thread, is the point at which a lot of them suddenly realise that there is something in it for them and they can stop pretending they didn't know they really had to.


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## Rabbitcat

Maybe yes maybe no and of course its not only right but more sensible to comply fully with all regulations

I do feel however if the Spanish feel this requirement is absolutely necessary- enforce it, otherwise for 100s of 1000s it will continue to be ( wrongly) seen as not really that important a step to take.


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## mrypg9

Well, if it comes to Brexit, all these people will be 'illegal aliens'.


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## Rabbitcat

Surely if there was a Brexit all you British may end up with difficulties and much tighter residency rules, though that's all a hypothetical quagmire.

Meanwhile whilst I can see where Lynn's coming from- many will look upon the situ and decide if the authorities don't see it as worthwhile enough to enforce then they will remain somewhat ambiguous as to wether its worthwhile complying


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## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> I cannot disagree with your sentiment- no one like freeloaders
> 
> However some of those I have spoken to casually seem more of the couldn't be bothered/ don't see the point/ no real advantage, even didn't know we really had to- attitude rather than low lifes or criminal types
> 
> Take some elderly couples who maybe got them self a flat for a few years in Benidorm or somewhere. Not all of those in that position would necessarily know or feel obliged to go through the rigours of residency or even possibly tax registration- and quite frankly especially with the former wrongdoing, are the authorities really that bothered ?
> 
> My point I suppose is for EU citizens it all seems a bit pointless red tape- especially as its quite clear that's how the authorities generally view it- certainly cannot see a swat team kicking in Maisie and Wilberts flat front door on a pre dawn raid rounding up those failing to register for residency


'Rigours of residency'?? Took us about two hours inclusive, if that.
If people have the nous to buy property they are well able to learn about residency.
Fact is, too many ignorant Brits think Spain is a British colony where they are the 'rulers'.


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## Rabbitcat

" rigours of residency" - I was thinking of the nonsensical uncomplyable ( sp.) healthcare aspect which would be applied to those staying there for maybe 4 months. There isn't a 4 month health ins available!!!

However that in itself just highlights why some don't bother as they may see a bunkum rule which the state don't enforce as not a priority


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## xabiaxica

Rabbitcat said:


> " rigours of residency" - I was thinking of the nonsensical uncomplyable ( sp.) healthcare aspect which would be applied to those staying there for maybe 4 months. There isn't a 4 month health ins available!!!
> 
> However that in itself just highlights why some don't bother as they may see a bunkum rule which the state don't enforce as not a priority


yes for a short 4 months stay it is a bit of a pita, and a bit of an anomoly that you're expected to register - but what does someone staying for that period do about healthcare??

the registration is really aimed at those intending to live here - the 90 days trigger is EU wide though - not just Spain


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## mrypg9

Why can't you buy three or four months insurance? If you can insure your car surely you can insure yourself...


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## Rabbitcat

Sadly not

Just a little quirk of the Spanish system. No such thing as a health policy for less than 12 months even though you are required to have it for registering as a resident for as little as 90 odd days

And you still wonder why some don't comply?


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## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> Sadly not
> 
> Just a little quirk of the Spanish system. No such thing as a health policy for less than 12 months even though you are required to have it for registering as a resident for as little as 90 odd days
> 
> And you still wonder why some don't comply?


But you could perhaps buy UK insurance?


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## Allie-P

Several of my quoted dozen, 'resident' couples use their EHIC, repeatedly. A few belong to Helicopteros Sanitarias, who will only drop them at the Hospital door.

I treasure my Health card and would live in a permanent state of worry...* if,* I was reliant on an EHIC card.

Surely, the Hospitals pick up on a history of repeat visits ??


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## thrax

Our son attends a Spanish state school; in order for him to enrol, all three of us had to have NIEs, residency and be registered on the Padron. Without these three items he would not have been able to enrol. My parents, both in their 80s, became resident as soon as they were able; they now receive a range of benefits such as free bus passes etc. For us there was simply no way we could live 'under the radar' without having a lot of difficulties.


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## angil

"Rigours of residency" is an understatement. Obtaining residency in Torremolinos was a nightmare. Won't bore everyone with the details again. A friend of mine is still not 'legal'! Despite 3 trips to Fuengirola police station (like me hubby works overseas, private schooling for the kids, private healthcare, ample proof of income). Whilst she was there other expats trying to register were getting the same run around. Another friend (newly arrived) obtained her NIE whilst still in the UK, awaiting her 'horror' story when she visits her local office.
As for Brits thinking this is a British colony?! Perhaps, like me, they know it to be part of the European Union & are confused by the need to prove income etc? I don't know. As I have stated before I don't speak for anyone else and hate generalisations.


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## Rabbitcat

mrypg9 said:


> But you could perhaps buy UK insurance?


Alas not acceptable for Residency purposes!!!


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## Rabbitcat

Bottom line for us will most probably be we will initially be there around 9 months of the year- but not 90 days straight so tax resident but not required to register as residents


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## Isobella

You can get travel insurance for a 90 day stay and it is not expensive. We did for a winter stay. You can also use the EHIC for that time and register at the local GP. We did in San Pedro as OH was having treatment at that time which was not covered by insurance.


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## Rabbitcat

Isobella said:


> You can get travel insurance for a 90 day stay and it is not expensive. We did for a winter stay. You can also use the EHIC for that time and register at the local GP. We did in San Pedro as OH was having treatment at that time which was not covered by insurance.


You can get travel insurance for up to 18 months stay-- but it's not acceptable for residency!!!


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## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> But you could perhaps buy UK insurance?


it wouldn't be accepted by the extranjería


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## samthemainman

I have met too many individuals here from the UK and Ireland that don't really seem to understand the need to properly register even though they are here indefinitely. They are complacent about healthcare, about life in general and feel that 'paying into the system' (a phrase I have come to loathe) in the UK or anywhere else means that they can 'withdraw' and take advantage wherever they like. I've no idea where they pay their taxes, but I'm sure for some it's nowhere. I'm aware I'm generalising, but I'm sure there are a healthy proportion of these individuals who are anti-immigration in their home countries (i.e. the UK) and believe that British-White immigrants - wait, 'Expats' - are 'above' sitting in a police station to sign on the list. They think the EU is all about moving wherever you like, for however long you like, and living on the premise that tax paid years ago in their home countries means you don't have to pay it now where you live and are 'covered'. Not so.

I don't think being elderly before you move is an excuse either...I think if you're sufficiently fit in the mind to want to make the move and go through with it - you at least find out what's required of you when you get there and get a gestor if you don't fancy doing the legwork yourself.

My advice to anyone considering not bothering with the green NIE/EU Citizen Registration, Padron and sorting proper comprehensive public or private healthcare is to either change their minds or go back to their previous country of residence. As much as it may feel to the Eurosceptics as though all EU countries are funded exclusively from the same pot - it doesn't work like that. Getting the paperwork is easy and takes a couple of hours if you get organised and have your photocopies in order.

Without the NIE/EU Citizen Registration - buying a property if you're resident, getting a contract mobile phone, getting some utility bills (water mainly) put in your name, submitting a tax return - are all impossible. Not signing on the Padron means the local government can't claim enough cash from central government for the area because they don't have a handle on the numbers of people actually living there. Relying on the EHIC means that you're burdening the British NHS for example for costs you incur in Spain, when you no longer qualify for NHS treatment (which you don't, if you no longer live there). Yes, some doctor's surgeries and hospitals accept the UK EHIC still willy-nilly even when they know you're a resident in Spain as at least they know what to do reclaim the cash and can get on with treating you, but that doesn't make it right or fair.

I know if I wasn't properly registered and set up I'd feel like an illegal alien. Spain is no tougher than other EU countries when it comes to these relatively simple processes. I know we all hate paperwork, but it's necessary here. I just know what the right-wing press and the majority of people in the UK (judging by the election results) would say if they heard immigrants from other EU countries just arrived and just cut all corners, didn't pay tax and exploited the system (which statistically, they do not in any significant numbers)...


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## Lynn R

samthemainman said:


> I have met too many individuals here from the UK and Ireland that don't really seem to understand the need to properly register even though they are here indefinitely. They are complacent about healthcare, about life in general and feel that 'paying into the system' (a phrase I have come to loathe) in the UK or anywhere else means that they can 'withdraw' and take advantage wherever they like. I've no idea where they pay their taxes, but I'm sure for some it's nowhere. I'm aware I'm generalising, but I'm sure there are a healthy proportion of these individuals who are anti-immigration in their home countries (i.e. the UK) and believe that British-White immigrants - wait, 'Expats' - are 'above' sitting in a police station to sign on the list. They think the EU is all about moving wherever you like, for however long you like, and living on the premise that tax paid years ago in their home countries means you don't have to pay it now where you live and are 'covered'. Not so.
> 
> I don't think being elderly before you move is an excuse either...I think if you're sufficiently fit in the mind to want to make the move and go through with it - you at least find out what's required of you when you get there and get a gestor if you don't fancy doing the legwork yourself.
> 
> My advice to anyone considering not bothering with the green NIE/EU Citizen Registration, Padron and sorting proper comprehensive public or private healthcare is to either change their minds or go back to their previous country of residence. As much as it may feel to the Eurosceptics as though all EU countries are funded exclusively from the same pot - it doesn't work like that. Getting the paperwork is easy and takes a couple of hours if you get organised and have your photocopies in order.
> 
> Without the NIE/EU Citizen Registration - buying a property if you're resident, getting a contract mobile phone, getting some utility bills (water mainly) put in your name, submitting a tax return - are all impossible. Not signing on the Padron means the local government can't claim enough cash from central government for the area because they don't have a handle on the numbers of people actually living there. Relying on the EHIC means that you're burdening the British NHS for example for costs you incur in Spain, when you no longer qualify for NHS treatment (which you don't, if you no longer live there). Yes, some doctor's surgeries and hospitals accept the UK EHIC still willy-nilly even when they know you're a resident in Spain as at least they know what to do reclaim the cash and can get on with treating you, but that doesn't make it right or fair.
> 
> I know if I wasn't properly registered and set up I'd feel like an illegal alien. Spain is no tougher than other EU countries when it comes to these relatively simple processes. I know we all hate paperwork, but it's necessary here. I just know what the right-wing press and the majority of people in the UK (judging by the election results) would say if they heard immigrants from other EU countries just arrived and just cut all corners, didn't pay tax and exploited the system (which statistically, they do not in any significant numbers)...


Liking that post doesn't seem enough, thank you and very well said.


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## Rabbitcat

Sam whats your advice to someone staying for 4 months?

According to the rules he/ she must register as a resident- yet there's no such thing as acceptable Spanish health ins available for such a short period- over to you


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## sdj101

Does not take much to confuse me. When we buy a property or rent a property in Spain and travel back to UK lets say 3 months Spain, 3 months UK and so on, would be be a resident and need to Register? We are over 70 and obviously may need medical treatment at sometime????? so what would we need to do. Our UK HOLIDAY insurance covers for 90 days but we may be there 100 days and so on.

Any help appreciated as we want to be legal.


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## Rabbitcat

If you stay for over 90 days in one visit you must register- then deregister when you go home. 

Try complying with that as there is no Spanish health insurance acceptable to the authorities for such short stays


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## sdj101

Rabbitcat said:


> If you stay for over 90 days in one visit you must register- then deregister when you go home.
> 
> Try complying with that as there is no Spanish health insurance acceptable to the authorities for such short stays


So would we need to keep Registering every time we returned if we were staying 90 plus a few days for instance and then deregister when we went to UK. Obviously we won't be doing exactly 90 days each time. I was also under the impression that we would be okay if we had health issues as we are 70+. Obviously hoping we don't but trying to be realistic.


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## Rabbitcat

The rules state if you are there over 90 days in one trip you must register. I find that aspect quite absurd when one considers situations like yours- esp as its not possible to comply


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## Lynn R

Rabbitcat said:


> If you stay for over 90 days in one visit you must register- then deregister when you go home.
> 
> Try complying with that as there is no Spanish health insurance acceptable to the authorities for such short stays


Then don't stay for more than 90 days in one visit, then (as has already been said in countless other discussions on this subject)

We have friends who do just that, they come to their second home here for two months and then go back to the UK for two months, and make sure they don't stay in Spain for 183 days or more in any one year - because they are concerned about doing the right thing. I've just been to help them arrange to get broadband installed in their house this morning, I am more than willing to put myself out for those who accept the rules and play by them.


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## Rabbitcat

Yeah as I have already said in our case we wont be over the 90 days in each visit

I was however highlighting the madness of this rule as it can be impossible to abide by it

Is it any wonder in situs like that given by sdj101, some people chose to ignore it


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## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> Then don't stay for more than 90 days in one visit, then (as has already been said in countless other discussions on this subject)
> 
> We have friends who do just that, they come to their second home here for two months and then go back to the UK for two months, and make sure they don't stay in Spain for 183 days or more in any one year - because they are concerned about doing the right thing. I've just been to help them arrange to get broadband installed in their house this morning, I am more than willing to put myself out for those who accept the rules and play by them.


Well, yes, that's the nub. Don't stay. The rules aren't made to be bent to anyone's convenience.
Do the right thing. It's not that difficult to arrange a ninety day visit rather than a ninety - five or hundred day visit.
As Mick Jagger tells us, 'you don't always get what you want'.


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## xabiaxica

sdj101 said:


> Does not take much to confuse me. When we buy a property or rent a property in Spain and travel back to UK lets say 3 months Spain, 3 months UK and so on, would be be a resident and need to Register? We are over 70 and obviously may need medical treatment at sometime????? so what would we need to do. Our UK HOLIDAY insurance covers for 90 days but we may be there 100 days and so on.
> 
> Any help appreciated as we want to be legal.


to be strictly legal, you need to be in Spain for no more than 90 consecutive days, or face the hassle of registering & unregistering every trip

as said, you are unlikely to be challenged, but if you were, you would have to prove that you had been here less than 90 days - even a 24 hour trip out of the country would be enough 

if you were to register as resident here you'd need to get S1s from the UK (assuming you get a state pension?) so that you could access state healthcare here, but under new, current rules, you would still be entitled to full access to the NHS in the UK, so it might be worth becoming properly resident here, & have visits to the UK!!

if you clock up 183 cumulative days a year (Jan 1st to Dec 31st) you would also be tax resident


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## Rabbitcat

I sometimes am convinced some of these " rules" are of a lot more concern to some ex pats than they are to the authorities


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## sdj101

Lynn R said:


> Then don't stay for more than 90 days in one visit, then (as has already been said in countless other discussions on this subject)
> 
> We have friends who do just that, they come to their second home here for two months and then go back to the UK for two months, and make sure they don't stay in Spain for 183 days or more in any one year - because they are concerned about doing the right thing. I've just been to help them arrange to get broadband installed in their house this morning, I am more than willing to put myself out for those who accept the rules and play by them.



That is why I have asked the question Lynn and Rabbitcat has been very helpful. We have no wish to to break any rules hence my questions and as Rabbitcat implies, it would be very difficult to manage so it looks as though we should register as we don't think we want Spain to be our second home, we want it as our main home. We are just trying to do all our homework diligently so maybe I need to find the 'countless other discussions on this subject'.


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## samthemainman

To be honest what I'd do if you really are just in Spain on holiday for 4 months without travelling back home to break up the 90 days, is obtain a UK travel insurance policy for trips longer than 90 days (search on it - there are lots of policies), then I wouldn't bother registering - as its clearly not what its intended for. Take my case for example - I'm employed by a UK company (and paid into a UK bank account) but live in Spain with only a few incidental business trips to the UK. The Extranjeria wouldn't register me until they'd seen three monthly bank transfers (or a massive lump sum which I didn't have at the time) going in - i.e. they wouldn't register me until after the 90 days anyway, and I have a healthcare plan with Sanitas as the Convenio Especial for the public system didn't exist then. They didn't make any note of extending my 90 day limit and were pretty lax about when I came back to get it (I was keen as I wanted a decent mobile phone and to move our water bill into our name rather than our landlord's!)

In other words - an extra few days are probably neither here nor there... but that's not the official line of course!


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## Rabbitcat

SDJ101-your case highlights for me the points I have been making. Many who are not registered are quite simply not fully aware of the red tape and frankly petty rules.

I think it totally wrong for anyone to view all who are not in full compliance as dome sort of criminals or ner do wells.

Many people are confused by the fact that as Spain is an EU country and freedom of movement is a central aspect of the EU, why do EU citizens even need to register at all.

Thankfully the authorities in Spain are a lot less judgemental on tne residence issue than some ex pats and certainly do not view failure to register in itself as a major crime


----------



## sdj101

xabiachica said:


> to be strictly legal, you need to be in Spain for no more than 90 consecutive days, or face the hassle of registering & unregistering every trip
> 
> as said, you are unlikely to be challenged, but if you were, you would have to prove that you had been here less than 90 days - even a 24 hour trip out of the country would be enough
> 
> if you were to register as resident here you'd need to get S1s from the UK (assuming you get a state pension?) so that you could access state healthcare here, but under new, current rules, you would still be entitled to full access to the NHS in the UK, so it might be worth becoming properly resident here, & have visits to the UK!!
> 
> if you clock up 183 cumulative days a year (Jan 1st to Dec 31st) you would also be tax resident



Thank you for the helpful information. Yes, we do get State Pensions and doubt very much whether we would be responsible for any income tax!!!! I wish!!!

We had a similar situation in USA where we have recently sold a villa. In actual fact we would be illegal if we stayed 180 days and we would also be liable for paying US Tax. We rented our villa out which was 5 beds, 4.5 baths with pool and all the bells and whistles. Our accountant in US was extremely efficient in making sure we never made enough money to pay tax!!! We have paid enough in the UK over the past 50+ years and can't wait to come and enjoy what Spain has to offer - legally of course!!


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## Rabbitcat

samthemainman said:


> To be honest what I'd do if you really are just in Spain on holiday for 4 months without travelling back home to break up the 90 days, is obtain a UK travel insurance policy for trips longer than 90 days (search on it - there are lots of policies), then I wouldn't bother registering - as its clearly not what its intended for. Take my case for example - I'm employed by a UK company (and paid into a UK bank account) but live in Spain with only a few incidental business trips to the UK. The Extranjeria wouldn't register me until they'd seen three monthly bank transfers (or a massive lump sum which I didn't have at the time) going in - i.e. they wouldn't register me until after the 90 days anyway, and I have a healthcare plan with Sanitas as the Convenio Especial for the public system didn't exist then. They didn't make any note of extending my 90 day limit and were pretty lax about when I came back to get it (I was keen as I wanted a decent mobile phone and to move our water bill into our name rather than our landlord's!)
> 
> In other words - an extra few days are probably neither here nor there... but that's not the official line of course!


Very sensible advice Sam. Alas some will have you hung drawn and quartered for suggesting that a 4 month stayer shouldn't comply.

I think what some of the over zealous seem to lack is perspective and common sense on these matters. Yes there's a stated period of 90 days, but common sense certainly prevails with the authorities for the like of 4 month stayers


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## xabiaxica

sdj101 said:


> Thank you for the helpful information. Yes, we do get State Pensions and doubt very much whether we would be responsible for any income tax!!!! I wish!!!
> 
> We had a similar situation in USA where we have recently sold a villa. In actual fact we would be illegal if we stayed 180 days and we would also be liable for paying US Tax. We rented our villa out which was 5 beds, 4.5 baths with pool and all the bells and whistles. Our accountant in US was extremely efficient in making sure we never made enough money to pay tax!!! We have paid enough in the UK over the past 50+ years and can't wait to come and enjoy what Spain has to offer - legally of course!!


being tax resident just means having to make a tax declaration - it doesn't necessarily mean that you'd have to pay any more tax, if you had already paid tax on the income in a country with a tax agreement with Spain


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## deefitz

snikpoh said:


> Just to clarify for you;
> 
> 
> You should register on the list of foreigners and get your certificate of registration *WITHIN *90 days of arriving.
> After 183 days (in a calendar year) of being here (can be less), you are automatically deemed tax resident.
> 
> These are two completely different situations.


Ok, I've got that.

183 days makes you resident for tax purposes. So why did an earlier post suggest that people are paying (Spanish) income tax after 90 days?

Surely you don't pay income tax until you are resident for tax purposes


----------



## sdj101

Rabbitcat said:


> SDJ101-your case highlights for me the points I have been making. Many who are not registered are quite simply not fully aware of the red tape and frankly petty rules.
> 
> I think it totally wrong for anyone to view all who are not in full compliance as dome sort of criminals or ner do wells.
> 
> Many people are confused by the fact that as Spain is an EU country and freedom of movement is a central aspect of the EU, why do EU citizens even need to register at all.
> 
> Thankfully the authorities in Spain are a lot less judgemental on tne re dissidence issue than some ex pats and certainly do not view failure to register in itself as a major crime



:juggle: It is all about juggling and being sensible. I definitely would not be thinking I was a criminal if I was not to Register due to the red tape that surrounds this issue. I am not concerned whether others obviously would think I was some sort of criminal as long as I thought I was trying to do the right thing which of course was the whole point of my post. Thank you very much for your comments as they make a lot of sense and are non judgemental.


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## xabiaxica

Rabbitcat said:


> SDJ101-your case highlights for me the points I have been making. Many who are not registered are quite simply not fully aware of the red tape and frankly petty rules.
> 
> I think it totally wrong for anyone to view all who are not in full compliance as dome sort of criminals or ner do wells.
> 
> Many people are confused by the fact that as Spain is an EU country and freedom of movement is a central aspect of the EU, why do EU citizens even need to register at all.
> 
> Thankfully the authorities in Spain are a lot less judgemental on tne residence issue than some ex pats and certainly do not view failure to register in itself as a major crime


to me, their case is very simple, since they say they would like to spend longer than 90 days at a time here

register as resident in Spain, have full access to healthcare etc here, & take long holidays in the UK, where they would still have full access to the NHS

best of all possible worlds

---------

I don't know of any expats who view not registering as a major crime

most of us would agree that the 90 days is a pita for those wishing to stay a bit longer & understand why you might not - but equally, is it any great hassle to just come for a bit less time than you might want to

however, most would agree that those who genuinely live here full time *should *register, for all the reasons given in previous posts


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## Rabbitcat

deefitz said:


> Ok, I've got that.
> 
> 183 days makes you resident for tax purposes. So why did an earlier post suggest that people are paying (Spanish) income tax after 90 days?
> 
> Surely you don't pay income tax until you are resident for tax purposes


Technically you MAY be subject to Spanish tax even if you have spent less than 183 days. If the Spanish consider Spain to be your " centre of economic interest" they COULD expect payment without the 183 day qualifying period


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## deefitz

Rabbitcat said:


> Technically you MAY be subject to Spanish tax even if you have spent less than 183 days. If the Spanish consider Spain to be your " centre of economic interest" they COULD expect payment without the 183 day qualifying period


I have a PAYE number in the UK and income tax disappears as fast as I can earn. How can you 'technically' pay to the Spanish taxman without a similar number/code - which presumably you do not have until you pass the 183 day mark?

Or would you pay it at the end of the tax year... at which point who decides you were 'technically' liable for tax all those months earlier?

Yes I am confused


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## Rabbitcat

What I said is if it was deemed by the Spanish that you no longer had any financial, economic etc stake in any other country other than Spain- they COULD deem you were then liable to taxation there even before a 183 day qualifying period


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## Helenameva

A bug bear of mine is the statement 'it's easy, it only takes a couple of hours'. I appreciate that is some people's experience, but would hazard a guess that it's said by people who have lived her for quite a while and not had to comply with the 'new' rules. Also, it seems harder in the big cities, or at least it is in Barcelona. Somebody else touched on this earlier in the thread and I can see why people are put off doing things properly when it can be such a ball ache. I still don't see how they manage to get on with life living under the radar. It's was impossible for me to get my NIE without satisfying the 'residency' rules as well.


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## deefitz

Rabbitcat said:


> What I said is if it was deemed by the Spanish that you no longer had any financial, economic etc stake in any other country other than Spain- they COULD deem you were then liable to taxation there even before a 183 day qualifying period


Rabbitcat, I really do appreciate what you said but my question is HOW can be deemed liable to taxation at let's say the 120 day point when you don't present yourself to the man until 183 days?

Who does this "deeming" and when do they do it? Is it perhaps backdated when they assess you at 183 days?

Thanks.


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## Rabbitcat

Let's just suppose you come to the tax authorities attention- either by them doing a fishing exercise or after you complete a genuine return in compliance with the 183 day rule.

If they look deeper into your affairs and decide that all your economic interests were in Spain from your arrival they could certainly go back to that point and retrospectively tax you from then

Remember the onus is on you to prove otherwise- not on the Spanish taxman to prove their case


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## deefitz

Rabbitcat said:


> Let's just suppose you come to the tax authorities attention- either by them doing a fishing exercise or after you complete a genuine return in compliance with the 183 day rule.
> 
> If they look deeper into your affairs and decide that all your economic interests were in Spain from your arrival they could certainly go back to that point and retrospectively tax you from then
> 
> Remember the onus is on you to prove otherwise- not on the Spanish taxman to prove their case


Thank you Rabbitcat.

So I was (technically) right that even the 'legally' registered "I've been here for 95 days" person is highly unlikely to be paying Spanish income tax.

What I'm getting at is this:



Lynn R said:


> All very true, and it also annoys me when those who are in that position, or planning to be, say "well we do pay taxes in Spain, we pay IVA on everything we buy". Well those of us who live here legally do that too, AS WELL AS paying income tax. It is meant to be both, not one or the other, and as you say, not being on the padrón deprives the town where you are living of much needed funding.


The person who did everything legally at 90 days is very unlikely to be paying income tax AS WELL AS purchase taxes. Correct?

As for coming to the attention of the tax authorities pre-183 days - how likely is that? Really? I'd think even the tax man has better things to do than fishing for tax cents from someone who has been in Spain for a couple of months.


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## Rabbitcat

You are quite correct. I was merely stating that the tax authorities COULD look for payment from some in Spain ,less than 183 days

My own view is both on that issue and on residency they have much bigger fish to fry hence my bemusement at some ex pats " outrage" re the 90 day issue


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## Lynn R

deefitz said:


> The person who did everything legally at 90 days is very unlikely to be paying income tax AS WELL AS purchase taxes. Correct?
> 
> As for coming to the attention of the tax authorities pre-183 days - how likely is that? Really? I'd think even the tax man has better things to do than fishing for tax cents from someone who has been in Spain for a couple of months.


At the 90 day mark, you wouldn't be classed as tax resident.

Really, the tax system in Spain (for those who aren't employed and subject to PAYE) operates on trust. It is up to each individual to submit their annual tax return in May/June of each year in relation to the previous tax year (1 January - 31 December). Hacienda will not send you a letter and ask you to complete a form. So in that sense yes, it is easy for people to evade paying. If, however, they catch up with someone at a later date (and this may become more widespread in future when the automatic exchange of information between tax authorities begins) the fines for not complying are heavy - and heavier still for those who don't submit the Modelo 720 in respect of overseas assets.

My sentiments about those who are here without being registered, being on the padron or paying tax really relate more than anything to those who live here all year round (and there are lots of them). 

But if people want to spend less than 183 days of the year in Spain (which means they still wouldn't be liable to Spanish income tax) then I believe they ought to abide by the rules and keep their stays to no more than 90 days at a time. They would then, quite legally, be able to use their EHIC cards to access any medical treatment they needed as well.


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## Rabbitcat

Well when giving opinion on these matters I like to mix and match across different topics recently raised on the forum

To that end-if you want to buy a Vespa always make sure you have a job lined up, in order to be able to have somewhere to park your horse and get free healthcare


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## samthemainman

deefitz said:


> I have a PAYE number in the UK and income tax disappears as fast as I can earn. How can you 'technically' pay to the Spanish taxman without a similar number/code - which presumably you do not have until you pass the 183 day mark?
> 
> Or would you pay it at the end of the tax year... at which point who decides you were 'technically' liable for tax all those months earlier?
> 
> Yes I am confused


Via a tax return - due normally in the June after the previous Jan-Dec tax year. 

This was until recently an utter nightmare for me - except not with the Spanish Hacienda but the UK HMRC. I work for an IT company in the UK and too was on PAYE. I called HMRC before I left, filled out the P85 explaining my situation and they then proceeded to give me incorrect advice and incorrect forms to fill in, the consequences of which I'm still bearing (cashflow issues from having to pay tax on both incomes before getting a refund plus other costs!)... but it is slowly being rectified by HMRC.

Anyway to cut a very long story extremely short - it took months of to-ing and fro-ing, proof of tax residency in Spain (which the Hacienda provided me once I had submitted my return - though it is now possible to get it beforehand) getting to HMRC, which takes them 8-10 weeks to process due to their never ending backlog. I needed a letter from my UK employer stating I was permanently resident in Spain with only incidental travel to the UK (I'm over for about 8 days a year on business), and only then would they notify my employer that I could have an NT tax code (where my tax wasn't deducted at source). I still have to fill out a HMRC self assessment every year as I had a small amount of rental income, and one in Spain too. I also had to claim back tax from HMRC for income that had been taxed both countries (tax year in Spain is Jan-Dec) - but it got sorted. I find the Hacienda system, PADRE - really quick and not too challenging- and the local tax office can give you help in filling it in if necessary, for free. For HMRC I use software called Tax Calc to submit my UK one online (for my rental income etc) as you can't properly use HMRC's own software if you're resident abroad (for allowance reasons as well as uploading other special forms which may be needed) and its quite intuitive to use, but there are others.. I definitely advocate doing everything online rather than paper submissions - so much quicker for them to process - especially if you're due any refunds!

Sorry if this is a bit TMI....


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## deefitz

Lynn R said:


> At the 90 day mark, you wouldn't be classed as tax resident.
> 
> Really, the tax system in Spain (for those who aren't employed and subject to PAYE) operates on trust. It is up to each individual to submit their annual tax return in May/June of each year in relation to the previous tax year (1 January - 31 December). Hacienda will not send you a letter and ask you to complete a form. So in that sense yes, it is easy for people to evade paying. If, however, they catch up with someone at a later date (and this may become more widespread in future when the automatic exchange of information between tax authorities begins) the fines for not complying are heavy - and heavier still for those who don't submit the Modelo 720 in respect of overseas assets.
> 
> My sentiments about those who are here without being registered, being on the padron or paying tax really relate more than anything to those who live here all year round (and there are lots of them).
> 
> But if people want to spend less than 183 days of the year in Spain (which means they still wouldn't be liable to Spanish income tax) then I believe they ought to abide by the rules and keep their stays to no more than 90 days at a time. They would then, quite legally, be able to use their EHIC cards to access any medical treatment they needed as well.


If the solicitors would pull their finger out then we will be moving over before the end of this month. We are coming over and renting for (up to) 12 months to decide whether we are staying permanently or heading back to the UK. During that time we will be doing everything legally (including paying taxes as required). My only concern was that the suggestion (by you in fact) was that I should be paying income tax from the 90+ days.

Thankfully, that would seem to be very unlikely. Furthermore, as one OAP and one early retiree (civil service) our tax liabilities are like to be very low anyway.


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## Rabbitcat

Head over, enjoy yourselves thoroughly, comply as best as poss and leave the worrying to others. Good luck


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## sdj101

deefitz said:


> If the solicitors would pull their finger out then we will be moving over before the end of this month. We are coming over and renting for (up to) 12 months to decide whether we are staying permanently or heading back to the UK. During that time we will be doing everything legally (including paying taxes as required). My only concern was that the suggestion (by you in fact) was that I should be paying income tax from the 90+ days.
> 
> Thankfully, that would seem to be very unlikely. Furthermore, as one OAP and one early retiree (civil service) our tax liabilities are like to be very low anyway.


Good luck with your move and we shall hopefully be not too far behind you. Will be interesting to see where you rent and what you actually get for your money - we have been looking at the rentals but need to see them first and not just go from the photo's!!!


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## Lynn R

deefitz said:


> My only concern was that the suggestion (by you in fact) was that I should be paying income tax from the 90+ days.
> 
> Thankfully, that would seem to be very unlikely. Furthermore, as one OAP and one early retiree (civil service) our tax liabilities are like to be very low anyway.


I am very sorry if anything I wrote misled you, it must have been worded badly as I certainly didn't mean to give that impression.

In the situation you have described you are quite likely to find you have no income tax liability in Spain at all. Your civil service pension should be entered in the box for "rentas exentas" on the Spanish tax return (income exempt from Spanish tax as it must be taxed in the UK). It is only where someone has other income in addition to a Crown pension that the receipt of such a pension can mean them paying more tax on their other income than they otherwise might have, because it affects the marginal rate of tax.


----------



## sdj101

Lynn R said:


> I am very sorry if anything I wrote misled you, it must have been worded badly as I certainly didn't mean to give that impression.
> 
> In the situation you have described you are quite likely to find you have no income tax liability in Spain at all. Your civil service pension should be entered in the box for "rentas exentas" on the Spanish tax return (income exempt from Spanish tax as it must be taxed in the UK). It is only where someone has other income in addition to a Crown pension that the receipt of such a pension can mean them paying more tax on their other income than they otherwise might have, because it affects the marginal rate of tax.


Lynn, would that also cover us as we will have the State Pension plus a few private pensions that are taxed in the UK? Would we need to declare the extra pensions please?


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## Lynn R

sdj101 said:


> Lynn, would that also cover us as we will have the State Pension plus a few private pensions that are taxed in the UK? Would we need to declare the extra pensions please?


Yes, you would need to declare all your private pensions as well as the State Pension.

The Tax Office, if you made an appointment to have them do your tax return for free, would show you a comparison to enable you to decide whether it would be more beneficial for you to submit a joint tax return (it can be, if one half of a couple doesn't have enough income to use up their personal allowance) or two individual returns. If you choose to use a gestor to complete your return, they should do that too.

The fact that a Crown Pension (civil service ones plus a few others) is classed as exempt from taxation in Spain is only because those types of pensions must be taxed in the UK.

If you pay any tax in the UK on your pensions in total, that can be offset against any tax liability you have in Spain. Once you get a certificate of fiscal residency in Spain (which confirms that you are paying tax here) and submit that to HMRC it should be possible for you to get an NT tax code and not pay any tax in the UK.


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## mrypg9

sdj101 said:


> :juggle: It is all about juggling and being sensible. I definitely would not be thinking I was a criminal if I was not to Register due to the red tape that surrounds this issue. I am not concerned whether others obviously would think I was some sort of criminal as long as I thought I was trying to do the right thing which of course was the whole point of my post. Thank you very much for your comments as they make a lot of sense and are non judgemental.


No-one has sad it's a 'crime'. But I reserve the right to be 'judgmental' when people observe rules in a way that suits them. Red tape isn't an excuse. 
You must do as you see fit. Nothing will happen to you anyway.
For the record, I'm also judgmental about people who drive UK plated cars beyond the permitted time period, thus avoiding ITV and road tax, people who work on the black and people who don't register as tax residents.


----------



## sdj101

Lynn R said:


> Yes, you would need to declare all your private pensions as well as the State Pension.
> 
> The Tax Office, if you made an appointment to have them do your tax return for free, would show you a comparison to enable you to decide whether it would be more beneficial for you to submit a joint tax return (it can be, if one half of a couple doesn't have enough income to use up their personal allowance) or two individual returns. If you choose to use a gestor to complete your return, they should do that too.
> 
> The fact that a Crown Pension (civil service ones plus a few others) is classed as exempt from taxation in Spain is only because those types of pensions must be taxed in the UK.
> 
> If you pay any tax in the UK on your pensions in total, that can be offset against any tax liability you have in Spain. Once you get a certificate of fiscal residency in Spain (which confirms that you are paying tax here) and submit that to HMRC it should be possible for you to get an NT tax code and not pay any tax in the UK.



Many thanks Lynn.


----------



## deefitz

Lynn R said:


> I am very sorry if anything I wrote misled you, it must have been worded badly as I certainly didn't mean to give that impression.
> 
> In the situation you have described you are quite likely to find you have no income tax liability in Spain at all. Your civil service pension should be entered in the box for "rentas exentas" on the Spanish tax return (income exempt from Spanish tax as it must be taxed in the UK). It is only where someone has other income in addition to a Crown pension that the receipt of such a pension can mean them paying more tax on their other income than they otherwise might have, because it affects the marginal rate of tax.


I'm sure you didn't set out to deliberately mislead, it's just the way I interpreted your comment. No problem though - I now understand what was meant 

I understand I will still have to declare interest on savings and such but I'm keeping everything crossed that the tax won't add up to much.


----------



## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> No-one has sad it's a 'crime'. But I reserve the right to be 'judgmental' when people observe rules in a way that suits them. Red tape isn't an excuse.
> You must do as you see fit. Nothing will happen to you anyway.
> For the record, I'm also judgmental about people who drive UK plated cars beyond the permitted time period, thus avoiding ITV and road tax, people who work on the black and people who don't register as tax residents.


Most of the people I know who have never registered, aren't on the padron and don't make tax returns have been here since well befor 2012. I took a certain pleasure, therefore, in the fact that they weren't able to register for state healthcare when the Spanish Government made it available to everyone who was legally registered as resident in 2012. They also have to have non-resident bank accounts which are more expensive in terms of charges, and they don't get the discount which I get on my IBI bill because I'm on the padron (which amounts to €280 off my bill).


----------



## snikpoh

deefitz said:


> I'm sure you didn't set out to deliberately mislead, it's just the way I interpreted your comment. No problem though - I now understand what was meant
> 
> I understand I will still have to declare interest on savings and such but I'm keeping everything crossed that the tax won't add up to much.


We declare everything (of course) including interest on savings in UK, rental income etc. etc. and even get a tax rebate every year which more than covers the costs of using a gestor.


----------



## Aranjuez

Referring back to the original post about the potential consequences of not registering at 90 days. I'm unable to assist with this as in common with many others who are already here and came with the intention of staying for a while the thought never occurred. The only consideration was to set up all of the personal infrastructure needed to become legitimate in the new host country at the earliest possible opportunity. As others have already mentioned how is it possible to really settle into the new community and derive all of the social and cultural benefits it may have to offer otherwise? The original post and what follows really does seem to highlight the difference between people who play safe and cover all bases as far as possible, and people who live on a wing and a prayer. What happens if you don't register at 90 days is linked to a number of other issues, that again have already been highlighted. It's a fair bet that a very high percentage of the sob stories that crop up from time to time fall into the people who think they can beat the system, or simply don't care, categories. There have been some fairly glib "nothing will happen" type responses. Nothing will happen unless something unexpected happens to you, I strongly suspect. A very good point has also been made about making sure you are legitimately here in the event of a referendum deciding against the UK staying in the EU. Finally I can see the argument that someone who in substance lives here for 4 months and in a permanent home in their own country for the rest of the year wouldn't have a great deal to worry about even if picked up by the systems, but I don't think the original question was couched in those terms.


----------



## hibiscus123

mrypg9 said:


> There is also the point that by not registering as resident or on the padron you are freeloading - enjoying services you aren't contributing to.
> If your house or flat catches fire the bomberos will come to put it out. If you have a road traffic accident an ambulance will scrape you up and take you to hospital to be cared for, in Andalucia at least. You will be driving your car on roads paid for by other taxpayers. If you are assaulted or burgled, the police will come to investigate....all these and many other things: the clean streets, the beaches,rubbish disposal.
> The town hall receives funding based on population count so if you don't register on the padron then you are depriving them of your 'contribution'.
> Not everyone will have a guilt trip about this but imo it's living off Spain, not living in Spain.


as a biker and keen cyclist could you please not use the term 'scrape you up', as this just makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.


----------



## stefig

samthemainman said:


> I have met too many individuals here from the UK and Ireland that don't really seem to understand the need to properly register even though they are here indefinitely. They are complacent about healthcare, about life in general and feel that 'paying into the system' (a phrase I have come to loathe) in the UK or anywhere else means that they can 'withdraw' and take advantage wherever they like. I've no idea where they pay their taxes, but I'm sure for some it's nowhere. I'm aware I'm generalising, but I'm sure there are a healthy proportion of these individuals who are anti-immigration in their home countries (i.e. the UK) and believe that British-White immigrants - wait, 'Expats' - are 'above' sitting in a police station to sign on the list. They think the EU is all about moving wherever you like, for however long you like, and living on the premise that tax paid years ago in their home countries means you don't have to pay it now where you live and are 'covered'. Not so.


Yes, that mentality is just silly.



> I don't think being elderly before you move is an excuse either...I think if you're sufficiently fit in the mind to want to make the move and go through with it - you at least find out what's required of you when you get there and get a gestor if you don't fancy doing the legwork yourself.
> 
> My advice to anyone considering not bothering with the green NIE/EU Citizen Registration, Padron and sorting proper comprehensive public or private healthcare is to either change their minds or go back to their previous country of residence. As much as it may feel to the Eurosceptics as though all EU countries are funded exclusively from the same pot - it doesn't work like that. Getting the paperwork is easy and takes a couple of hours if you get organised and have your photocopies in order.


It's not about being funded from the same pot though. The issue I have with the Spanish registration process is that it is not just the formality it once was. You are now not allowed to stay in Spain for more than 90 says unless you have a Spanish work contract or are autonomo and paying for health insurance, with all the money and paperwork that comes with these things. I have never lived in another EU country which made such demands. I think it's incredibly unfair that Spain makes people jump through so many hoops while their citizens can come to the UK, register quickly and easily and access all kinds of public services. They can even sign on while they look for work! I think the process should at least be reciprocal.



> Without the NIE/EU Citizen Registration - buying a property if you're resident, getting a contract mobile phone, getting some utility bills (water mainly) put in your name, submitting a tax return - are all impossible. Not signing on the Padron means the local government can't claim enough cash from central government for the area because they don't have a handle on the numbers of people actually living there. Relying on the EHIC means that you're burdening the British NHS for example for costs you incur in Spain, when you no longer qualify for NHS treatment (which you don't, if you no longer live there). Yes, some doctor's surgeries and hospitals accept the UK EHIC still willy-nilly even when they know you're a resident in Spain as at least they know what to do reclaim the cash and can get on with treating you, but that doesn't make it right or fair.





> I know if I wasn't properly registered and set up I'd feel like an illegal alien. *Spain is no tougher than other EU countries when it comes to these relatively simple processes*. I know we all hate paperwork, but it's necessary here. I just know what the right-wing press and the majority of people in the UK (judging by the election results) would say if they heard immigrants from other EU countries just arrived and just cut all corners, didn't pay tax and exploited the system (which statistically, they do not in any significant numbers)...


This is simply not true. It just isn't.


----------



## mrypg9

stefig said:


> Yes, that mentality is just silly.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not about being funded from the same pot though. The issue I have with the Spanish registration process is that it is not just the formality it once was. You are now not allowed to stay in Spain for more than 90 says unless you have a Spanish work contract or are autonomo and paying for health insurance, with all the money and paperwork that comes with these things. I have never lived in another EU country which made such demands. I think it's incredibly unfair that Spain makes people jump through so many hoops while their citizens can come to the UK, register quickly and easily and access all kinds of public services. They can even sign on while they look for work! I think the process should at least be
> T
> 
> 
> This is simply not true. It just isn't.


I suspect you have not worked or lived in the Czech Republic


----------



## stefig

mrypg9 said:


> I suspect you have not worked or lived in the Czech Republic


That is true. I've lived in plenty of other EU countries though. Pop down to town hall, sign in a book, done!


----------



## mrypg9

stefig said:


> That is true. I've lived in plenty of other EU countries though. Pop down to town hall, sign in a book, done!


Well, the first thing that greeted me at the dark, dingy, smelly Foreigners Police Office was a crudely hand written notice pinned to the door stating, in Czech "Only Czech spoken here"
After two unsuccessful attempts to register - I was told by a woman official who had my UK passport in her hand that I needed a visa as I was American -I gave up, something I don't do easily, and paid a hefty sum to an agency run by an enterprising young Czech woman set up with the express purpose of helping Western immigrants.
My residence permit was delivered to my door three days later. The hefty sum most certainly included a bribe to someone in the Foreign Police.


----------



## SteveScot

The thing is... you are allowed to come to Spain and look for work. You have 90 days to find it!
And using EU form U2, you can still claim jobseekers allowance. It's after the 90 days that the residency requirements kick in. It's a PITA, but these are EU rules that Spain is enforcing; no doubt it was a result of, shall we say, 'poorer' economic migrants coming from the newer Eastern European countries. For time immemorial folk have been doing that. Although, to be frank... if I was an economic migrant, Spain would be well down the list of countries that I would move to.

You are only required to sign on to a register. 

People keep comparing to the UK. That is the UK's problem to sort out, not Spain's. The qualification for accessing the UK NHS is residence based. Spain's isn't. Stop comparing apples with oranges!

Back to the original question as to what would happen if you didn't register:

I doubt very much that anything would happen. 

As a non resident, I have an NIE, a Spanish bank account, a house here, a Spanish registered car here. I pay my IBI, car tax and non resident's imputed rental tax (that one gets my goat). If I decided to stay on longer than 3 months at a time, and assuming that I had the funds to do so, and sensibly took out a healthcare insurance policy, rather than trying to use my EHIC.... I doubt anyone would be interested in whether my name was in the register of foreigners. I think you'd find they have bigger fish to fry...


----------



## xabiaxica

stefig said:


> Yes, that mentality is just silly.
> 
> It's not about being funded from the same pot though. The issue I have with the Spanish registration process is that it is not just the formality it once was. You are now not allowed to stay in Spain for more than 90 says unless you have a Spanish work contract or are autonomo and paying for health insurance, with all the money and paperwork that comes with these things. I have never lived in another EU country which made such demands. I think it's incredibly unfair that Spain makes people jump through so many hoops while their citizens can come to the UK, register quickly and easily and access all kinds of public services. They can even sign on while they look for work! I think the process should at least be reciprocal.
> 
> This is simply not true. It just isn't.


You ARE allowed to stay. As an EU citizen you can't be thrown out for not registering


----------



## mrypg9

hibiscus123 said:


> as a biker and keen cyclist could you please not use the term 'scrape you up', as this just makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.


I was a cyclist for over fifty years, from riding my bike to primary school to using it most days to go to work. My son was a 'keen' motorcyclist from teens and still has two powerful bikes.
Phrases like that help instil in people the terrible consequences of accidents on two wheels. Or any road traffic accident generally. That's why I applaud those so-called 'hard hitting' anti-drink driving or buckle up campaign ads.
The hairs on the back of my neck stand up when I see people in Spain riding fast motorbikes or mopeds even in shorts, flip-flops - zero protective clothing.
Just sayin'......


----------



## Rabbitcat

xabiachica said:


> You ARE allowed to stay. As an EU citizen you can't be thrown out for not registering



Exactly so bottom line all the huff puff and predictions of fire and pestilence don't amount to a row of beans

If it was a biggy- the authorities would vigorously enforce it - they don't 

At the end of the day if its workable/ feasible in your circumstances do register. If not, don't sweat it

Relax, have a churro and worry about something worthwhile. There's members on here with nowhere to park their horse, others cannot get Bbc2 and some have went without Pot noodles for years. Priorities folks


----------



## xabiaxica

Rabbitcat said:


> Exactly so bottom line all the huff puff and predictions of fire and pestilence don't amount to a row of beans
> 
> At the end of the day if its workable/ feasible in your circumstances do register. If not, don't sweat it


But if you don't have the 625ish a month, and health care, how are you going to survive?


----------



## Rabbitcat

That's a different issue. You need wonga to survive everywhere. You don't need to go through pointless redtape to survive- that's been proved by the 100s of 1000s who don't register 

There's more pressing issues in life than redtape


----------



## Isobella

I think Spain is shooting itself in the foot with the 90 day rule. There are huge numbers who stay November to March on the Costas. The rule could prevent many from doing it although I am sure a lot will ignore it. Snowbirds heading for Florida are even allowed 6 months.


----------



## xabiaxica

Rabbitcat said:


> That's a different issue. You need wonga to survive everywhere. You don't need to go through pointless redtape to survive- that's been proved by the 100s of 1000s who don't register
> 
> There's more pressing issues in life than redtape


But if you can easily fulfill the requirements, why NOT register? 
And I mean those who live here long term , not those who come for a bit longer than 90 days


----------



## Rabbitcat

I agree fully with you. 
I reckon if its feasible you should register as apart from anything else-its to your advantage. 

I am just highlighting the fact that there are anomalies with this and also that as the authorities are obviously not too fussed re enforcement its not something people should fret over. 

Life's too short


----------



## Rabbitcat

Isobella said:


> I think Spain is shooting itself in the foot with the 90 day rule. There are huge numbers who stay November to March on the Costas. The rule could prevent many from doing it although I am sure a lot will ignore it. Snowbirds heading for Florida are even allowed 6 months.


Scandinavians in particular have been visiting during that period for years in their 1000s- many many of whom I suspect don't register


----------



## samthemainman

xabiachica said:


> You ARE allowed to stay. As an EU citizen you can't be thrown out for not registering


Not for just failing to register, no - but you absolutely can be expelled by the authorities in any EU country (though of course it is difficult to 'police') and it is a myth that freedom of movement applies to all EU citizens regardless of their economic position. The situation is more complex than many people think and will vary from country to country. 

The stipulation is: 
_'￼￼Your right to reside for more than three months is subject to certain conditions. The nature of these conditions depends on your status in the host EU country.'_

Any employment needs to be 'effective and genuine'. However, it does not matter that you may have to rely on the local social assistance for persons with a low income.

You also will not be expelled if you are in duly recorded involuntary unemployment or have embarked on vocational training. In that case you retain your status of migrant worker (at least for six months, if you worked less than a year). 

You can show that you are genuinely looking for a job and have a real chance of finding one. You can prove this with copies of job applications, invitations to interviews or positive reactions to your applications, for instance.

The same applies if you are temporarily unable to work as a result of an illness or accident. In any case, you retain the right of residence either if you have sufficient resources and comprehensive sickness insurance or if you have resided in your new country for over 5 years (permanent residence). ￼This right is granted to you directly by EU law.

HOWEVER - what is also stipulated is that you will not be expelled for failing to register (although you may be faced with a fine or sanctions from your local authority) - but you can most definitely be refused the right to remain if it is found that you fail to fulfil the conditions around resources and/or employment.

And the definitive guide is here: http://ec.europa.eu/justice/policies/citizenship/docs/guide_free_movement_low.pdf

There's lots of information here with case study Q&As (where the above is largely taken from): http://europa.eu/youreurope/advice/docs/faq_en.pdf


----------



## Rabbitcat

All a bit of a red herring really.

You can get removed for not having adequate resources ( highly unlikely) but not for failing to register 

If you do not register how do they even know what resources you have????

Indeed I will go further. You turn up to register but do not have the adequate income- they tell you you cannot register. Do you really think they will send the cops to your door to escort you to Malaga airport or check every week to see when your income reaches €600 a month?


----------



## samthemainman

stefig said:


> This is simply not true. It just isn't.


It is. Over the last 5 years or so they all do it. Italy needs the same:
European Union citizens

as does France:
Moving to France: Guide to French visas and permits | Visas & Permits | Expatica France

as does Germany:
Applying to live long term in Germany after you have arrived here

I've not checked other countries. Spain clearly isn't an exceptional case....


----------



## Pazcat

When we came we had the residency part sorted thanks to HR so that made life easier, we eventually got our plates swapped over which wasn't a big ordeal either especially as the car was already LHD.
The padron was something that we didn't do at first as our original plan was to rent for a while and then buy so really didn't want to register only to have to deregister 3 months later. Well 6 months of thinking like that turned into longer than anticipated.

Anyway, when we brought the house the first thing we did was go to register on the padron. Mainly because we needed a mail box and to complain about the street lights more than anything but I imagine they pay more attention to you if you are registered.
So over a month ago we turn up, have almost everything but our address is in dispute as the town hall changed the name of our street but all their records indicate the old address and strangely they can't confirm that they had changed the street name so they say they will send the policia local around to confirm. 2 weeks later the policeman shows up and confirms our address.
ANd that was a couple of weeks ago so now what?
Did they register us once it was confirmed all contact us to say come back?
I suspect not but we have to go back for the mail box so will check then, strangely though this is the sort of rubbish that normally gets right up my skin and for one reason or another I'm really not put out by this.

The one thing we got caught out on was the kids, they want our family book translated before they can register them. If that is the case they will have to wait for that, we have more important things to spend money on atm.

As posted above, many other countries have the same or even stricter rules on residency and registration as Spain but here they seem to apply it arse backwards which makes life more annoying than it needs to be, funny though this sort of thing never crops up in say Belgium where we were. Maybe Spain attracts a different calibre of expats?


----------



## samthemainman

Rabbitcat said:


> All a bit of a red herring really.
> 
> You can get removed for not having adequate resources ( highly unlikely) but not for failing to register
> 
> If you do not register how do they even know what resources you have????
> 
> Indeed I will go further. You turn up to register but do not have the adequate income- they tell you you cannot register. Do you really think they will send the cops to your door to escort you to Malaga airport or check every week to see when your income reaches €600 a month?


See what happened to these 323 Spaniards in Belgium in 2013 alone.....

Written question - Expulsion of EU citizens from Belgium - E-000335/2014

It happens, people. Just register and cut out the stress of being caught.


----------



## Rabbitcat

I have asked time and time again across Spanish forums for examples of round ups of the 100s of 1000s of non registers getting grief from the authorities. Yet to hear anything.

Its simpLy a fact that the authorities generally do not have this matter as a priority.

But yet again I repeat I think if its feasible people SHOULD REGISTER


----------



## samthemainman

Rabbitcat said:


> I have asked time and time again across Spanish forums for examples of round ups of the 100s of 1000s of non registers getting grief from the authorities. Yet to hear anything.
> 
> Its simpLy a fact that the authorities generally do not have this matter as a priority.
> 
> But yet again I repeat I think if its feasible people SHOULD REGISTER


Exactly - and the Belgians have the same information to hand as the Spanish do, so for me it would only be a matter of time. 

People said this not long ago about people not getting caught under-declaring property values on deeds to reduce capital gains. I know two people personally who had huge fines and bills sent to the when the Hacienda clocked that purchase prices were too out of kilter with the real value. Granted it's a totally different situation but I believe these things catch up with us all eventually.

The Spanish may have a stereotype reputation as 'jugadores' -i.e. players of the system, and maybe that's why there is seemingly more tolerance of it here when foreigners don't always play by the rules- but I can't see it lasting.


----------



## Pazcat

In Belgium they send the police around to check up on you after registering at the commune, you have *8 days* from your arrival to do this and after the coppers do their check you have to wait for another letter with an appointment time and then go back to the commune again to complete your application. Depending on where you are this could be a day trip.

Oh, and their tax declarations make the Spanish ones seem timid.


----------



## Lynn R

It would not bother me one bit if the Spanish authorities tightened up their registration procedures and carried out checks to make sure foreigners are registered - but if they did, the laissez-faire brigade would be the first to start whining about facism and living in a police state.


----------



## SteveScot

Pazcat said:


> In Belgium they send the police around to check up on you after registering at the commune, you have *8 days* from your arrival to do this and after the coppers do their check you have to wait for another letter with an appointment time and then go back to the commune again to complete your application. Depending on where you are this could be a day trip.


Was this because you aren't an EU citizen? As if you are...

Every EU citizen has the right to reside on the territory of the host EU country 
for a period of up to three months without any conditions or formalities other than the 
requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport.

Taken from this EU document. [URL="http://ec.europa.eu/justice/policies/citizenship/docs/guide_free_movement_low.pdf"/URL]
.


----------



## Pazcat

No, it's for all comers who intend on staying longer than 3 months, at that point you are considered a resident.
As soon as you have signed a lease for rent or purchase you have 8 days to go to the commune and apply.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-belgium
Irish version
https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/belgium/our-services/new-to-belgium/


----------



## SteveScot

I suppose it's the 'intending to stay for longer than 90 days' bit that means they want you to register that quickly... though what if you were just testing the water and weren't sure if you were going to stay longer than 90 days? Seems like yet another muddled system.


----------



## Johnsmith999

Rabbitcat said:


> Exactly so bottom line all the huff puff and predictions of fire and pestilence don't amount to a row of beans
> 
> If it was a biggy- the authorities would vigorously enforce it - they don't
> 
> At the end of the day if its workable/ feasible in your circumstances do register. If not, don't sweat it
> 
> Relax, have a churro and worry about something worthwhile. There's members on here with nowhere to park their horse, others cannot get Bbc2 and some have went without Pot noodles for years. Priorities folks


Wouldn't life be terrible if everyone was the same, a government programmed robot :second:


----------



## Rabbitcat

True John

At the end of the day we all must make our own decisions, take responsibility for our own actions and be prepared live with and accept the consequences. Some like to play it safer than others etc, but it's down to ourselves to live our own lives


----------



## Johnsmith999

I have friends who see fines and such as part of the territory and a risk of being in this Spain business, they kind of budget for these unfortunate but ultimately remote encumbrances.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Rabbitcat said:


> I KNOW that one must complete registration as resident after 90 days etc but having read widely differing views/ experiences on other forums, what's the REALITY of consequences for those who dodge registering?


I haven't read through the thread so don't know if this has all been said before, but here is info from older threads...

The general consensus is that your infraction would only come to light if you were involved in a "situation". If the situation is not one where you are involved in some kind of offence (ie you are involved in an accident that you didn't provoke or you are robbed) then probably nothing will happen. If however, you are involved in some kind of crime (Anything from speeding to drug smuggling) this could be an excuse for bringing you in whilst they investigate the bigger crime 

*This is the official comeback and a link to the government site it comes from*
Depending on the circumstances, not having your papers in order can be
Una Infracción leve = fine up to 500€
OR Infracción grave = fine of 501€ to 10.000€
From the Ministry of the Interior's web
Portada - Ministerio del Interior

Workers' and pensioners' residence rights


And here is some further info

EU – Residence rights when working in another EU country - Your Europe******** 



> You may live in the other EU country as long as you continue to meet the conditions for residence. If you no longer do so, the national authorities may require you to leave.
> 
> In exceptional cases, your new country can decide to expel you on grounds of public policy or public security but only if it can prove you represent a very serious threat.
> 
> The expulsion decision or the request to leave must be given to you in writing. It must state all the grounds, and specify how you can appeal and by when.


 http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...54-residency-requirements-spain-2013-a-7.html


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Johnsmith999 said:


> I have friends who see fines and such as part of the territory and a risk of being in this Spain business, they kind of budget for these unfortunate but ultimately remote encumbrances.


Yes, it deoends a lot on attitude and the kind of lifestyle you want to live.

I have Spanish family who budget for traffic fines - speeding, parking etc.
They have higher salaries than I do. And a different philosophy


----------



## stefig

Once again, the current Spanish system can be a vicious circle for many people, especially those who arrive without work. You need to register to get a NIE to work, but you can't register and get that NIE unless you have a certain amount of money coming in, you can't look for work without the NIE...

I totally understand the Spanish not wanting foreigners becoming a drain on the state, but there must be an easier way to go about it. I often work with refugees here in London, who have British residence permits with 'No recourse to public funds' on them. Couldn't the Spanish do the same? Bar foreigners from being on the dole unless they have paid Social Security for X number of months?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

stefig said:


> Once again, the current Spanish system can be a vicious circle for many people, especially those who arrive without work. You need to register to get a NIE to work, but you can't register and get that NIE unless you have a certain amount of money coming in, you can't look for work without the NIE...
> 
> I totally understand the Spanish not wanting foreigners becoming a drain on the state, but there must be an easier way to go about it. I often work with refugees here in London, who have British residence permits with 'No recourse to public funds' on them. Couldn't the Spanish do the same? Bar foreigners from being on the dole unless they have paid Social Security for X number of months?


 _*Everyone*_ has to have paid into the system before they are eligible for unemployment benefit. The same rules apply to Spaniards and foreigners. 


> ¿Qué requisitos debe cumplir?
> •
> Haber trabajado y cotizado a desempleo
> al menos 360 días en los 6 años anteriores a la situación legal de desempleo



http://www.sepe.es/contenidos/que_e...f/pdf_prestaciones/cuadr_contributiva_esp.pdf


Also, the benefit has an expiry date.


----------



## stefig

Pesky Wesky said:


> _*Everyone*_ has to have paid into the system before they are eligible for unemployment benefit. The same rules apply to Spaniards and foreigners.
> 
> http://www.sepe.es/contenidos/que_e...f/pdf_prestaciones/cuadr_contributiva_esp.pdf
> 
> 
> Also, the benefit has an expiry date.


That's what I thought (as that's how it was when I lived there) but someone on here claimed that foreigners are entitled to the equivalent of Jobseekers Allowance.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Rabbitcat said:


> That's a different issue. You need wonga to survive everywhere. You don't need to go through pointless redtape to survive- that's been proved by the 100s of 1000s who don't register
> 
> *There's more pressing issues in life than redtape*


Like having a reasonable amount of money to survive on, which as an absolute minimum I'd say hung around the 600€ mark.
Oh, wait a minute, how much is it the Spanish government stipulate?

Doesn't seem pointless to me...


----------



## Rabbitcat

Yeah I should have made the obvious point- you need wonga to survive anywhere. Oh wait, I did!!!!


----------



## jimenato

stefig said:


> Once again, the current Spanish system can be a vicious circle for many people, especially those who arrive without work. You need to register to get a NIE to work, but you can't register and get that NIE unless you have a certain amount of money coming in, you can't look for work without the NIE...
> 
> ...


This is confusing. Is getting an NIE dependent on/the same as getting residency these days? You used to be able to get one as a non-resident. Has that changed?


----------



## xabiaxica

jimenato said:


> This is confusing. Is getting an NIE dependent on/the same as getting residency these days? You used to be able to get one as a non-resident. Has that changed?


no it hasn't changed

non-residents can still get a NIE, even without ever coming to Spain, & you can also get a NIE when you register as resident (EU citizen) 

stefig is confused or being given wrong info by someone


----------



## jimenato

Completely off topic but nonetheless interesting...

A or an before an abbreviation or acronym?


----------



## Dunpleecin

As a non resident you can get a bank account and pay bank charges
You can own a house and pay IBI, Basura, non resident tax on house. You can have house insurance and car insurance and you can register your car onto spanish plates.

Therefore, you're still paying into the system without having residencia (or whatever people like to call it). In some areas, you need a certain amount on deposit at the bank before you can register anyway, so whilst that is the situation, you cannot possibly be penalised for being non resident especially if you are paying into the various systems you have to as a non resident.

The only issues arise that I can see is that some banks (not all) will freeze your account, so if it's one of those banks you need to close it if remaining non resident as, strangely, they won't actually let you close it without various forms of documentation you have no hope of getting.


----------



## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> True John
> 
> At the end of the day we all must make our own decisions, take responsibility for our own actions and be prepared live with and accept the consequences. Some like to play it safer than others etc, but it's down to ourselves to live our own lives


Within the law? Or should each of us decide which laws to observe and which not?
What if you have a nicer car than mine and I covet it and decide to ignore the law against theft?
Just asking


----------



## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> Yeah I should have made the obvious point- you need wonga to survive anywhere. Oh wait, I did!!!!


What on earth is this 'wonga''?


----------



## jimenato

mrypg9 said:


> What on earth is this 'wonga''?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slang_terms_for_money#United_Kingdom



> Other general terms for money include "bread" (cockney rhyming slang 'bread & honey', money. This also became dough, by derivation from the same root), "cabbage", "clam", "milk", "dosh", "dough", "shillings", "frogskins", "notes", "duckets", "loot", "bones", "coin", "folding stuff", "honk", "lolly", "lucre"/"filthy "Lucre", "moola/moolah", "paper", "scratch", "readies", "spondulicks/spondoolic(k)s/spondulix/spondoolies", and "wonga".


----------



## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slang_terms_for_money#United_Kingdom


Thankyou, Simon. i learn something new every day...


----------



## Rabbitcat

mrypg9 said:


> Within the law? Or should each of us decide which laws to observe and which not?
> What if you have a nicer car than mine and I covet it and decide to ignore the law against theft?
> Just asking


Lol believe me I do not have a nicer car than ANYONE!!

I recently offered a neighbour a lift who was walking- he declined saying he was in a hurry!!!

As regards to the law -no one is suggesting anarchy- just a touch of realism when it comes to the application and enforcement of some regulations.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

SteveScot said:


> The thing is... you are allowed to come to Spain and look for work. You have 90 days to find it!
> And using EU form U2, you can still claim jobseekers allowance. It's after the 90 days that the residency requirements kick in. It's a PITA, but these are EU rules that Spain is enforcing; no doubt it was a result of, shall we say, 'poorer' economic migrants coming from the newer Eastern European countries. For time immemorial folk have been doing that. Although, to be frank... if I was an economic migrant, Spain would be well down the list of countries that I would move to.
> 
> You are only required to sign on to a register.
> 
> People keep comparing to the UK. That is the UK's problem to sort out, not Spain's. The qualification for accessing the UK NHS is residence based. Spain's isn't. Stop comparing apples with oranges!
> 
> Back to the original question as to what would happen if you didn't register:
> 
> I doubt very much that anything would happen.
> 
> As a non resident, I have an NIE, a Spanish bank account, a house here, a Spanish registered car here. I pay my IBI, car tax and non resident's imputed rental tax (that one gets my goat). If I decided to stay on longer than 3 months at a time, and assuming that I had the funds to do so, and sensibly took out a healthcare insurance policy, rather than trying to use my EHIC.... I doubt anyone would be interested in whether my name was in the register of foreigners. I think you'd find they have bigger fish to fry...





stefig said:


> That's what I thought (as that's how it was when I lived there) but someone on here claimed that foreigners are entitled to the equivalent of Jobseekers Allowance.


Maybe stefig, you are referring to the above post by Steve Scot.
As you can see he is referring to a UK citizen receiving the JSA, not to an immigrant to Spain receiving money from the Spanish authorities. I'm not sure if what SteveScot says works out in Real Life, but I think it is supposed to be a possibility.

Young Spaniards who have never worked cannot get unemployment benefit, in fact they are eligible for very little. They can get a "Salario Social" if they can prove that they don't have their basic needs covered which is very difficult seeing as the great majority have a roof over their heads provided by Mamá and Papá. This is regulated by the local authorities and depends on each district or _ayuntamiento

info here
Los salarios sociales
_


> *Los jóvenes que no han tenido un primer empleo no disponen de ayudas económicas.*
> Los miles de jóvenes que tras finalizar sus estudios no encuentran trabajo,* no tienen ayudas por desempleo*. Para poder acceder a ellas tendrán que conseguir cotizar al menos durante seis meses (tres si tienen cónyuge o hijos a cargo), y pedir el subsidio por cotización insuficiente. Tras agotar éste y cumpliendo otros requisitos, podrían solicitar el Plan Prepara (+info).
> Como el resto de desempleados, los jóvenes que se inscriben como demandantes de empleo pueden recibir cursos de formación gratuitos, aunque no tengan cotizaciones previas. Hay algunas medidas para intentar favorecer su autoempleo como emprendedores, como la tarifa plana de autónomos de 50 euros mensuales, pero son claramente insuficientes.





> *Cómo solicitar los salarios sociales*
> 
> *Lo primero que debe hacer quien necesite este tipo de ayuda es acudir a los **Servicios Sociales** de su Ayuntamiento** o de la Comunidad Autónoma*, para que le informen de los requisitos, documentación y procedimiento para conceder las ayudas.
> 
> Requisitos generales
> 
> Cada Comunidad Autónoma establece los requisitos para su ayuda. Por lo general suelen ser estos:
> 
> 
> *Estar empadronado* con cierta antiguedad en un municipio de la Comunidad Autónoma (cada una exige distintos periodos de tiempo).
> *Carecer de recursos económicos suficientes* para las necesidades básicas de la vida.
> *Haber solicitado ya todas las ayudas, prestaciones y pensiones* que le pudieran corresponder.
> Aceptar las medidas de *inserción laboral*, orientación y formación que proponga la Comunidad Autónoma, ya que además de una ayuda económica se ponen recursos para intentar que la persona se integre laboralmente.


----------



## stefig

Pesky Wesky said:


> Like having a reasonable amount of money to survive on, which as an absolute minimum I'd say hung around the 600€ mark.
> Oh, wait a minute, how much is it the Spanish government stipulate?
> 
> Doesn't seem pointless to me...


The problem is that you need to *prove* it when you first register, in a way that is satisfactory to them. As a freelancer, my income is extremely variable. I'm working on a big project now, for which I won't be paid until December when I will get a huge payment. I've budgeted accordingly for that, having prepaid my accommodation and saved as much as possible, but I neither have the 600 a month income nor the 6000 in savings (or whatever it was) to meet the minimum income requirements to register as a resident. It's none of their business really how I support myself, as long as I'm not taking anything from the State, so why do I need to jump over all these hurdles to register as a resident? 



xabiachica said:


> no it hasn't changed
> 
> non-residents can still get a NIE, even without ever coming to Spain, & you can also get a NIE when you register as resident (EU citizen)
> 
> stefig is confused or being given wrong info by someone


Sorry, it's been a while since I did all the paperwork, but I definitely had to register as a resident before I was able to work.


----------



## stefig

Pesky Wesky said:


> Maybe stefig, you are referring to the above post by Steve Scot.
> As you can see he is referring to a UK citizen receiving the JSA, not to an immigrant to Spain receiving money from the Spanish authorities. I'm not sure if what SteveScot says works out in Real Life, but I think it is supposed to be a possibility.
> 
> Young Spaniards who have never worked cannot get unemployment benefit, in fact they are eligible for very little. They can get a "Salario Social" if they can prove that they don't have their basic needs covered which is very difficult seeing as the great majority have a roof over their heads provided by Mamá and Papá. This is regulated by the local authorities and depends on each district or _ayuntamiento
> 
> info here
> Los salarios sociales
> _


Well in that case, I was correct. A Spanish citizen can go to the UK and immediately start using British social services. They can use the NHS and go on benefits without ever having paid a penny into the system. I'm not sure how it's comparing apples with oranges (or whatever I was accused of by a poster) to point that out. It's absolutely unfair that a Spanish person in the UK is treated much more favourably than a British person in Spain when both are EU member states, no? I know Spanish people can't get 'paro' unless they have paid in, but I'm fairly sure they are all entitled to state health care. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

stefig said:


> Well in that case, I was correct. A Spanish citizen can go to the UK and immediately start using British social services. They can use the NHS and go on benefits without ever having paid a penny into the system. I'm not sure how it's comparing apples with oranges (or whatever I was accused of by a poster) to point that out. It's absolutely unfair that a Spanish person in the UK is treated much more favourably than a British person in Spain when both are EU member states, no? I know Spanish people can't get 'paro' unless they have paid in, but I'm fairly sure they are all entitled to state health care. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


Just so it's clear I'm not saying that it's right or fair or whatever. I'm just saying that's what there is.
However, without knowing all the ins and outs of the what happens in the UK versus Spain and the rest of Europe I'd say that both Spain and the UK need to rethink who gets what and how and why because it is a bit of a mess. But it should be remembered it's the governments who are making these decisions, not the people.
Spanish people are usually covered for health care one way or another, but there are people who fall through the net and if you want to know more about this here's an article
Parados sin tarjeta sanitaria


----------



## Rabbitcat

Look by gathering together vital info across recent threads it's easy to work out what's required....

Simply put if you don't have a Spanish driving licence but do have a 1.2m satellite dish you will be able to send your kids to a state school without using up your bandwidth


----------



## deefitz

stefig said:


> ...but I neither have the 600 a month income nor the 6000 in savings (or whatever it was) to meet the minimum income requirements to register as a resident. *It's none of their business really how I support myself, as long as I'm not taking anything from the State, so why do I need to jump over all these hurdles to register as a resident?*


That just about sums up the absurdity of the system. As long as you pay your taxes and don't expect any support from the state, what does it matter how much you have coming in?

Sure you can show them 100,000€ in the bank and a monthly income of 1000€ if that's what they want to see. Next month your income could drop to 200€ and you repaid your family the 100K they loaned you... so what was the point of showing Spain what you had a month ago?


----------



## Lynn R

deefitz said:


> As long as you pay your taxes


And that is my problem with the whole argument of people who don't want to register (if they are living here full time) - in my experience their unwillingness to do so is closely allied to their unwillingness to pay income tax, submit declarations of their overseas assets if they have enough to be required to do so, etc. They may say they contribute to the system in other ways, eg paying IVA on what they buy, but those of us who are living here on a fully legal and registered basis pay that too, and have to pay income tax on top, not instead of - as do Spanish citizens. 

The ones I've come across also often have pre-existing medical conditions which means they either couldn't get private health insurance or it would be expensive, so they continue (illegally) to use the services of the NHS although they're no longer actually resident in the UK, they just lie to the authorities and use the address of a relative or friend.

They aren't bothered about which country they cheat, it's all the same to them.


----------



## mrypg9

stefig said:


> Well in that case, I was correct. A Spanish citizen can go to the UK and immediately start using British social services. They can use the NHS and go on benefits without ever having paid a penny into the system. I'm not sure how it's comparing apples with oranges (or whatever I was accused of by a poster) to point that out. It's absolutely unfair that a Spanish person in the UK is treated much more favourably than a British person in Spain when both are EU member states, no? I know Spanish people can't get 'paro' unless they have paid in, but I'm fairly sure they are all entitled to state health care. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


The difference is simple, in that in the UK eligibility for most welfare benefits is residence based and in Spain contribution based.
EU regulations allow for differences in the way many aspects of the way member states apply laws.
No more unfair really than me not being allowed by law to divest rabbitcat of his car, however decrepit it may be...


----------



## Rabbitcat

You really have it in for my car!!!


----------



## Isobella

Lynn R said:


> And that is my problem with the whole argument of people who don't want to register (if they are living here full time) - in my experience their unwillingness to do so is closely allied to their unwillingness to pay income tax, submit declarations of their overseas assets if they have enough to be required to do so, etc. They may say they contribute to the system in other ways, eg paying IVA on what they buy, but those of us who are living here on a fully legal and registered basis pay that too, and have to pay income tax on top, not instead of - as do Spanish citizens.
> 
> The ones I've come across also often have pre-existing medical conditions which means they either couldn't get private health insurance or it would be expensive, so they continue (illegally) to use the services of the NHS although they're no longer actually resident in the UK, they just lie to the authorities and use the address of a relative or friend.
> 
> They aren't bothered about which country they cheat, it's all the same to them.



Unfortunately there are tax cheats in every country registered or not. When you read about the big shots tax fiddles and frauds both in UK and Spain who can blame the little people for not declaring. I only pay my taxes because I do not want to take the risk and want to sleep at night. Any I can legall avoid I will do so.


----------



## Lynn R

Isobella said:


> Unfortunately there are tax cheats in every country registered or not. When you read about the big shots tax fiddles and frauds both in UK and Spain who can blame the little people for not declaring. I only pay my taxes because I do not want to take the risk and want to sleep at night. Any I can legall avoid I will do so.


But people not declaring and not paying are not avoiding tax legally, are they?

I want to see the big shots and the large companies pay every cent in tax which they should be doing - but we are often told that if we make them do so they will just up and leave and we will all be destitute as a result. Well, if they won't pay and the little people won't pay either because the big shots don't, just how are we supposed to run a civilised society with proper infrastructure and decent public services?

Saying others don't pay so why should I is purely and simply an attempt to justify wrongdoing.


----------



## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> You really have it in for my car!!!


It can't be worse than our Disco...dented, scratched, filthy, smells of wet dogs...

Swap??


----------



## Rabbitcat

Dented scratched filthy, smells of wet dogs- not content with slagging off my car she's now starting on my wife!!!


----------



## Isobella

Lynn R said:


> But people not declaring and not paying are not avoiding tax legally, are they?
> 
> I want to see the big shots and the large companies pay every cent in tax which they should be doing - but we are often told that if we make them do so they will just up and leave and we will all be destitute as a result. Well, if they won't pay and the little people won't pay either because the big shots don't, just how are we supposed to run a civilised society with proper infrastructure and decent public services?
> 
> Saying others don't pay so why should I is purely and simply an attempt to justify wrongdoing.


I am not justifying them not paying just saying it is understandable some take the risk.


----------



## Rabbitcat

Life's all about risks

You take a risk every time you cross a road, dine at Nandos, put your face in a desk fan or your John-Thomas in a food mixer. Live a little folks.....


----------



## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> Life's all about risks
> 
> You take a risk every time you cross a road, dine at Nandos, put your face in a desk fan or your John-Thomas in a food mixer. Live a little folks.....


I've done the first on that list, have the equipment for the second.....but pondering on the third which may, just may, prove impossible to accomplish.
And not because I'm risk-averse..


----------



## Rabbitcat

Check the order again!!!

I am sure you have a face though am sorry to hear you dined at Nandos!!


----------



## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> Check the order again!!!
> 
> I am sure you have a face though am sorry to hear you dined at Nandos!!


I never was good a arithmetic...

What is Nando's? 
As you can see from my previous question about 'wonga' I've led a sheltered life. I thought the term 'wonga' referred to an intimate part of the male anatomy. The context in which it was used in previous posts caused me to doubt this.


----------



## Rabbitcat

Nandos is a particularly ghastly restaurant. Wonga is money. John Thomas is the male anatomy part

Getting back to subject I do indeed sympathise with those irked with freeloaders. The thrust of my thread is highlighting the fact that for the Spanish authorities these issues are seen as relatively minor .


----------



## deefitz

Nando's is an international casual dining restaurant chain originating from South Africa, with a Mozambican/Portuguese theme. 

I've never tried it as there isn't one around here. Not sure about ghastly, many people seem to like it.

But then, a lot of people apparently enjoy MacDonald's and I wouldn't touch that with a bargepole.

On the subject of healthcare, particularly those who insist on using the NHS, a report claims fraud could be costing the NHS £5.7bn per year.

Fraud could cost NHS England Â£5.7bn annually â€“ report â€” RT UK


----------



## gus-lopez

Lolito said:


> I am not entirely sure why people refuse to register as residents in Spain if they come to live in Spain? That's the first thing I did when i moved to the UK and I did it only a few days after my arrival.
> 
> After all, if you move to Spain and don't register as resident, it looks to me as if you got something to hide, lol!
> 
> I need the empadronamiento for so many things, i have lost count really, so I don't know how other people manage to live in Spain for so long without registering.


You only need a passport to register on thepadron, not registration on the foreigners list-


----------



## xabiaxica

gus-lopez said:


> You only need a passport to register on thepadron, not registration on the foreigners list-


hmm - that might have recently changed, for EU citizens at least 

take a look at 2.1 http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2015/03/24/pdfs/BOE-A-2015-3109.pdf

the next town to us insists on the res. cert. & a contact I have in our OAC is checking into it


----------



## gus-lopez

Rabbitcat said:


> Sam whats your advice to someone staying for 4 months?
> 
> According to the rules he/ she must register as a resident- yet there's no such thing as acceptable Spanish health ins available for such a short period- over to you


No you are miss-interpreting the requirement. Which is that you are required to ATTEMPT to register. Failing or refusing to attempt to register is the offence for which you can be fined. Failure to fulfill the requirements of registration means nothing.
An EU citizen cannot be asked to leave or deported except for 3 serious reasons .


----------



## gus-lopez

samthemainman said:


> Not for just failing to register, no - but you absolutely can be expelled by the authorities in any EU country (though of course it is difficult to 'police') and it is a myth that freedom of movement applies to all EU citizens regardless of their economic position. The situation is more complex than many people think and will vary from country to country.
> 
> The stipulation is:
> _'￼￼Your right to reside for more than three months is subject to certain conditions. The nature of these conditions depends on your status in the host EU country.'_
> 
> Any employment needs to be 'effective and genuine'. However, it does not matter that you may have to rely on the local social assistance for persons with a low income.
> 
> You also will not be expelled if you are in duly recorded involuntary unemployment or have embarked on vocational training. In that case you retain your status of migrant worker (at least for six months, if you worked less than a year).
> 
> You can show that you are genuinely looking for a job and have a real chance of finding one. You can prove this with copies of job applications, invitations to interviews or positive reactions to your applications, for instance.
> 
> The same applies if you are temporarily unable to work as a result of an illness or accident. In any case, you retain the right of residence either if you have sufficient resources and comprehensive sickness insurance or if you have resided in your new country for over 5 years (permanent residence). ￼This right is granted to you directly by EU law.
> 
> HOWEVER - what is also stipulated is that you will not be expelled for failing to register (although you may be faced with a fine or sanctions from your local authority) - but you can most definitely be refused the right to remain if it is found that you fail to fulfil the conditions around resources and/or employment.
> 
> And the definitive guide is here: http://ec.europa.eu/justice/policies/citizenship/docs/guide_free_movement_low.pdf
> 
> There's lots of information here with case study Q&As (where the above is largely taken from): http://europa.eu/youreurope/advice/docs/faq_en.pdf


You are misinterpreting it. Regardkess of your status as long as you are not a drain on the state you are in then you cannot in any circumstances be asked to leave, refused permission to stay or be deported. The EU state has no actual say in the matter & can in no way "confer" the right to stay on an EU citizen. The decision on whether they are going to be a Resident falls on the citizen themselves. Then it is down to them to comply with any registration rquirements.
Most states don't ecven ask , like the UK, people to register as they know they cannot throw them out.
From your link;;


It is a personal right
The right to reside in another EU country is your fundamental and personal right and
is granted to you directly by the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.
The right is therefore not dependent upon you having fulfilled administrative
procedures.
This basically means that once you meet the conditions, you have the right to reside from
that moment and your right is not granted to you by a decision of the host EU country.
The documents you or your family members might be issued with by the host EU country
merely acknowledge that you have the right. However, if you fail to register or your
family member’s residence card expires, your right to reside cannot be terminated if you
still meet the conditions. You may be subject to a proportionate and non-discriminatory
administrative sanction for your failure to observe the national rules.


The 3 things for which you can be denied staying are; carrier of serious highly infectious disease; terrorism or links to; offences against the state. Once you're registered then after 5 years it is only the last one which would be available to the authorities & after 10 years you cannot be asked to leave /deported , whatever the reason.
Additionally any attempt to use any of the 3 above would normally take at least 3-5 years; you cannot be thrown out in advance of the eventual outcome. The list of requirements that the authorities have to comply with makes it an absolute nightmare. ( Ask Theresa May .lol)


----------



## Isobella

deefitz said:


> Nando's is an international casual dining restaurant chain originating from South Africa, with a Mozambican/Portuguese theme.
> 
> I've never tried it as there isn't one around here. Not sure about ghastly, many people seem to like it.
> 
> But then, a lot of people apparently enjoy MacDonald's and I wouldn't touch that with a bargepole.
> 
> UK[/


I like Nandos, good atmosphere too with great African music. Their Piri Piri chicken is good.


----------



## Rabbitcat

gus-lopez said:


> No you are miss-interpreting the requirement. Which is that you are required to ATTEMPT to register. Failing or refusing to attempt to register is the offence for which you can be fined. Failure to fulfill the requirements of registration means nothing.
> An EU citizen cannot be asked to leave or deported except for 3 serious reasons .



Very interesting

Had no idea the requirement was to ATTEMPT to register as opposed to having to ACTUALLY REGISTER.

So are stories of police / officials calling to homes of non registered residents not accurate???

I had asked before as to what would happen if you failed the registration process- no one seemed to know

Learn all the time on here


----------



## xabiaxica

Rabbitcat said:


> Very interesting
> 
> Had no idea the requirement was to ATTEMPT to register as opposed to having to ACTUALLY REGISTER.
> 
> So are stories of police / officials calling to homes of non registered residents not accurate???
> 
> I had asked before as to what would happen if you failed the registration process- no one seemed to know
> 
> Learn all the time on here


they definitely do call on people - I personally know people who have had a 'visit'

they had never attempted to register though, & were able to very easily

iirc they were given 2 weeks to get their paperwork in order

no threat of being deported - but a fine was a real possibility


----------



## Rabbitcat

I see Xabia

So just to be clear- if you " attempt" to register you're ok, don't actually need to register. It gets dafter the more I read about it

Even the threat of a fine. I cannot imagine an EU citizen ending up in prison for not paying such a fine.

At the end of the day folks ffs just register!!!


----------



## xabiaxica

Rabbitcat said:


> I see Xabia
> 
> So just to be clear- if you " attempt" to register you're ok, don't actually need to register. It gets dafter the more I read about it
> 
> Even the threat of a fine. I cannot imagine an EU citizen ending up in prison for not paying such a fine.
> 
> At the end of the day folks ffs just register!!!


well if a Brit can end up in prison in the UK for not paying a fine, I don't see why they couldn't in Spain........


----------



## Rabbitcat

I know what you're saying but in reality the authorities seem VERY relaxed about this stuff and frankly an EU citizen put in the nick over some local regulation somewhat at odds to EU ideals of freedom of movement etc..... I don't see it happening 

Wouldn't wanna test my theory though, lol!!!


----------



## Lynn R

xabiachica said:


> well if a Brit can end up in prison in the UK for not paying a fine, I don't see why they couldn't in Spain........


And Spanish people certainly do end up in prison in Spain for not paying a fine - we know a local guy who was fined for a motoring offence, couldn't pay and has, therefore, just had to serve a custodial sentence. So a British person in Spain would not be treated any differently, I'm sure.


----------



## Rabbitcat

I know what you're saying Lynn but really. Can you see the 1000s upon 1000s of for example non registered pensioner type Brits in Benidorm etc been hauled from their homes asked to pay fines and if they don't, being locked up. Hasn't happened, never will


----------



## samthemainman

I have misinterpreted nothing. I was clear with the below that it is not the registering but the meeting of the conditions which is imperative, and there have been many cases of expulsion for people who have not met them.

'HOWEVER - what is also stipulated is that you will not be expelled for failing to register (although you may be faced with a fine or sanctions from your local authority) - but you can most definitely be refused the right to remain if it is found that you fail to fulfil the conditions around resources and/or employment.'

It is wholly misleading to imply that there are no consequences for thinking that you can live anywhere in Europe wherever you like for as long as you like, when there are particular requirements required for you to do so- and being able to demonstrate that you will not be a drain on the state is imperative. The likelihood of being caught is irrelevant.

In other words - people should just register to demonstrate their position and quit trying to play the system and slip under the radar.


----------



## xabiaxica

Rabbitcat said:


> I know what you're saying Lynn but really. Can you see the 1000s upon 1000s of for example non registered pensioner type Brits in Benidorm etc been hauled from their homes asked to pay fines and if they don't, being locked up. Hasn't happened, never will


I seriously doubt that there are 1000s upon 1000s of unregistered pensioners or any other type of Brit or other foreigner - I reckon the vast majority _do_ register 

for pensioners especially, it's simple - & in their own interest anyway - no registration, no S1 activation - no healthcare & other benefits 

of course there are some who don't - but ime they are a minority 

I'm talking about those who really do live here of course - not those who are here a bit longer than the '90 days at a time' but live elsewhere for most of the year


----------



## xabiaxica

samthemainman said:


> I have misinterpreted nothing. I was clear with the below that it is not the registering but the meeting of the conditions which is imperative, and there have been many cases of expulsion for people who have not met them.
> 
> 'HOWEVER - what is also stipulated is that you will not be expelled for failing to register (although you may be faced with a fine or sanctions from your local authority) - but you can most definitely be refused the right to remain if it is found that you fail to fulfil the conditions around resources and/or employment.'
> 
> It is wholly misleading to imply that there are no consequences for thinking that you can live anywhere in Europe wherever you like for as long as you like, when there are particular requirements required for you to do so- and being able to demonstrate that you will not be a drain on the state is imperative. The likelihood of being caught is irrelevant.
> 
> In other words - people should just register to demonstrate their position and quit trying to play the system and slip under the radar.


I'd be very interested to see evidence of these expulsions


while I agree that people should just register & be done with it - particularly since the requirements aren't that difficult to fulfill - I've never come across an EU citizen being removed from the country for not doing so


----------



## Rabbitcat

Yeah I would reckon a large proportion of non register types are maybe long stayers as opposed to f/t residents. Technically though they should be subject to the rules/ consequences when the reality is they are not as I maintain its not a biggy for the authorities


----------



## samthemainman

xabiachica said:


> I'd be very interested to see evidence of these expulsions while I agree that people should just register & be done with it - particularly since the requirements aren't that difficult to fulfill - I've never come across an EU citizen being removed from the country for not doing so


 EU citizens expelled from Belgium: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+WQ+E-2014-000335+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN

And story on Germany:

http://www.thelocal.de/20140327/germany-unemployed-eu-citizens-can-be-expelled


----------



## samthemainman

Another interesting if long winded article here:

http://www.ceemr.uw.edu.pl/articles...-host-member-state-legal-grounds-and-practice


----------



## Rabbitcat

As per your article the expulsions in Belgium and the Roma expulsions in France are very contentious and most certainly the exception rather than the rule


----------



## xabiaxica

samthemainman said:


> EU citizens expelled from Belgium: Written question - Expulsion of EU citizens from Belgium - E-000335/2014
> 
> And story on Germany:
> 
> 'Unemployed EU citizens can be expelled' - The Local





samthemainman said:


> Another interesting if long winded article here:
> 
> The Expulsion of European Union Citizens from the Host Member State: Legal Grounds and Practice | CEEMR


France, Germany, Belgium - I see no mention of Spain - & it's Spain we are discussing

what those three countries appear to have in common with each other - but not with Spain, is that there is social security support available for all residents, if I've understood correctly

that doesn't happen here, so the 'triggers' mentioned don't either


----------



## Rabbitcat

I reckon you are correct again Xabia

The thrust of the reasoning behind the expulsions appears to be the unacceptable drawdown of monies from the host nations social security system- not impoverished poor sods like me who don't /couldn't draw a penny from the system


----------



## xabiaxica

Rabbitcat said:


> I reckon you are correct again Xabia
> 
> The thrust of the reasoning behind the expulsions appears to be the unacceptable drawdown of monies from the host nations social security system- not impoverished poor sods like me who don't /couldn't draw a penny from the system


you can't 'take out' here, until you have 'paid in' - & then only for a limited time

so anyone 'taking out' would be entitled to, having 'paid in' & therefore couldn't be deported for doing so 

there are whispers of a gradual move towards universal free healthcare for all residents in some regions though, so that could change


----------



## Rabbitcat

Ironically I think that would be unfair. Those who work pay in- so it's only right people like myself who arrive in Spain and don't work / pay income tax, pay separately. Fairs fair


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Lolito said:


> I am not entirely sure why people refuse to register as residents in Spain if they come to live in Spain? That's the first thing I did when i moved to the UK and I did it only a few days after my arrival.
> 
> After all, if you move to Spain and don't register as resident, it looks to me as if you got something to hide, lol!
> 
> I need the empadronamiento for so many things, i have lost count really, so I don't know how other people manage to live in Spain for so long without registering.


I think it might be a cultural thing. All Spaniards have ID from the age of 14 and many before that. You've grown up with it and your DNI really is part of your DNA.
We are not used to it and have actually rejected the idea of an ID card, or at least the governments have. (Personally I can't see how it can ever come in now just because of the enormous cost)
To many British a national ID number is a way of spying on the people and it takes away "rights" whereas my OH for example sees an ID card as a way of enabling you to do things.
And of course we are spied on and followed and our movements are recorded in quite possibly hundreds of ways anyway (mobiles, CCTV, bank movements, car regs, Googles...) so what difference does it make?


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## samthemainman

xabiachica said:


> France, Germany, Belgium - I see no mention of Spain - & it's Spain we are discussing what those three countries appear to have in common with each other - but not with Spain, is that there is social security support available for all residents, if I've understood correctly that doesn't happen here, so the 'triggers' mentioned don't either


Not so. Germany has a different system but is still dependent on the Bismarck model for healthcare (vs Beveridge in the UK and Spain) - which means you have to pay in too as it's an insurance model. Apart from the registering of SS payments in Spain, the system is funded similarly to the NHS. Similarly, getting a health card in France isn't a walk in the park, Italy neither. Neither is claiming benefits. 

I worry people are missing the point - which is that unless you can demonstrate you're self sufficiency to a greater or lesser extent, you can be at risk. So what if the authorities in Spain aren't super hot on it yet? They soon could be, as they are tightening up on the national addiction to black money, on undeclared assets abroad - where hefty fines are being imposed. Unlike in the UK, there is greater visibility of your bank accounts and the activity that goes on. Queries and investigations over residential status, tax liability and property happen every day. Heavy fines hit people every day for not following the (sometimes draconian) rules.

Scrutiny of people's non-resident bank accounts will show those people who are not properly registered but are clearly living the Spanish dream. The information is all there - it's just a question of when the Spanish authorities will crack down. At the moment they probably have bigger fish to fry - but it's only a matter of time.


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## Pesky Wesky

samthemainman said:


> Not so. Germany has a different system but is still dependent on the Bismarck model for healthcare (vs Beveridge in the UK and Spain) - which means you have to pay in too as it's an insurance model. Apart from the registering of SS payments in Spain, the system is funded similarly to the NHS. Similarly, getting a health card in France isn't a walk in the park, Italy neither. Neither is claiming benefits.
> 
> I worry people are missing the point - which is that unless you can demonstrate you're self sufficiency to a greater or lesser extent, you can be at risk. So what if the authorities in Spain aren't super hot on it yet? They soon could be, as they are tightening up on the national addiction to black money, on undeclared assets abroad - where hefty fines are being imposed. Unlike in the UK, there is greater visibility of your bank accounts and the activity that goes on. Queries and investigations over residential status, tax liability and property happen every day. Heavy fines hit people every day for not following the (sometimes draconian) rules.
> 
> Scrutiny of people's non-resident bank accounts will show those people who are not properly registered but are clearly living the Spanish dream. The information is all there - it's just a question of when the Spanish authorities will crack down. At the moment they probably have bigger fish to fry - but it's only a matter of time.


Unfortunately I don't think the Spanish are frying any fish and I don't think they will be for a long time. Why? I've got no idea. In many cases, from double parking to paying taxes to environmental damage, laws are in place, but are not enforced. I believe unemployment could drop by @ a third if they trained people to put these, often well thought out pieces of legislation, into action. Training tax inspectors for example, or forestry agents,,,


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## Pesky Wesky

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think it might be a cultural thing. All Spaniards have ID from the age of 14 and many before that. You've grown up with it and your DNI really is part of your DNA.
> We are not used to it and have actually rejected the idea of an ID card, or at least the governments have. (Personally I can't see how it can ever come in now just because of the enormous cost)
> To many British a national ID number is a way of spying on the people and it takes away "rights" whereas my OH for example sees an ID card as a way of enabling you to do things.
> And of course we are spied on and followed and our movements are recorded in quite possibly hundreds of ways anyway (mobiles, CCTV, bank movements, car regs, Googles...) so what difference does it make?


And here's just one example of how we are followed in our everyday lives.
Catherine Crump: The small and surprisingly dangerous detail the police track about you | TED Talk | TED.com


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## gus-lopez

samthemainman said:


> EU citizens expelled from Belgium: Written question - Expulsion of EU citizens from Belgium - E-000335/2014
> 
> And story on Germany:
> 
> 'Unemployed EU citizens can be expelled' - The Local


& if you read the answer to the first link infringement proceedings have been instigated against Belgium, Due to the incorrect transposition of Directive2004/38 ,for the expulsions of any that weren't Rumanian /Bulgarian -- These technically could be done as at the time both were still not classed as full members , although it really is a bit below the belt for the Belgiums to do. Then again they were on the point of being classed as the next country to go down the pan at the time . 

The German article is just talk.
If you can support yourself etc; you cannot be removed.

If you comply with any of these then you cannot be touched.
working as an employee (this includes looking for work for a reasonable amount of time),
working as a self-employed person,
studying,
being self-sufficient or retired.
As I said once you are in a country over 10 years you are untouchable more or less.


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## samthemainman

gus-lopez said:


> & if you read the answer to the first link infringement proceedings have been instigated against Belgium, Due to the incorrect transposition of Directive2004/38 ,for the expulsions of any that weren't Rumanian /Bulgarian -- These technically could be done as at the time both were still not classed as full members , although it really is a bit below the belt for the Belgiums to do. Then again they were on the point of being classed as the next country to go down the pan at the time . The German article is just talk. If you can support yourself etc; you cannot be removed. If you comply with any of these then you cannot be touched. working as an employee (this includes looking for work for a reasonable amount of time), working as a self-employed person, studying, being self-sufficient or retired. As I said once you are in a country over 10 years you are untouchable more or less.


Still missing the point - which is that you need to be able to show you can support yourself. If you can't do that - regardless of registering - and if you can't do that - you are at risk. It does not mean anyone can just move here with no prospects or no money and feel 100% certain of being able to stay.


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## xabiaxica

samthemainman said:


> Still missing the point - which is that you need to be able to show you can support yourself. If you can't do that - regardless of registering - and if you can't do that - you are at risk. It does not mean anyone can just move here with no prospects or no money and feel 100% certain of being able to stay.


& that of course IS the point - & presumably why the requirements were introduced

if you can't support yourself, you shouldn't come


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## Rabbitcat

xabiachica said:


> & that of course IS the point - & presumably why the requirements were introduced
> 
> if you can't support yourself, you shouldn't come



Well said Xabia, and that's EXACTLY where this great forum comes in.

Rich members- Xabia, Lynn, Baldi, Mrypg, Pesky etc- can give to poor members ( Rabbitcat) so we can move to Spain.


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## xabiaxica

Rabbitcat said:


> Well said Xabia, and that's EXACTLY where this great forum comes in.
> 
> Rich members- Xabia, Lynn, Baldi, Mrypg, Pesky etc- can give to poor members ( Rabbitcat) so we can move to Spain.


rich... yeah right


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## Lynn R

Rabbitcat said:


> Well said Xabia, and that's EXACTLY where this great forum comes in.
> 
> Rich members- Xabia, Lynn, Baldi, Mrypg, Pesky etc- can give to poor members ( Rabbitcat) so we can move to Spain.


Hmmm. I think you forget you made me privy to certain information which leads me to believe I'm more likely to be looking for a sub from you rather than the other way around.


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## Rabbitcat

I hereby immediately withdraw my previous post ( always best to know when your beaten!)


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## Pesky Wesky

Rabbitcat said:


> Well said Xabia, and that's EXACTLY where this great forum comes in.
> 
> Rich members- Xabia, Lynn, Baldi, Mrypg, Pesky etc- can give to poor members ( Rabbitcat) so we can move to Spain.


Of course.
All you have to do is pay 5,000€ into my account in an undisclosed country in Africa. This is to cover costs you understand. I will then reveal to you the secret workings of the rich and successful in Spain and you too will become a member of that exclusive club.
Info by PM only-


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## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> Well said Xabia, and that's EXACTLY where this great forum comes in.
> 
> Rich members- Xabia, Lynn, Baldi, Mrypg, Pesky etc- can give to poor members ( Rabbitcat) so we can move to Spain.


We don't want your sort here, lowering the tone


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## stefig

xabiachica said:


> & that of course IS the point - & presumably why the requirements were introduced
> 
> if you can't support yourself, you shouldn't come


The problem is that the requirements are too rigid. You can support yourself for some time without having an income of 600 a month or 6000 or whatever in savings.


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## xabiaxica

stefig said:


> The problem is that the requirements are too rigid. You can support yourself for some time without having an income of 600 a month or 6000 or whatever in savings.


6000€ wouldn't last long though, would it?

from scratch, with deposits & so on for property, it wouldn't last much longer than 3 or 4 months for most people


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## stefig

xabiachica said:


> 6000€ wouldn't last long though, would it?
> 
> from scratch, with deposits & so on for property, it wouldn't last much longer than 3 or 4 months for most people


For a single person? It can last AGES. Far more than 90 days. When I first lived in Spain, I rented a room in a shared flat in Granada for 140 euros a month. The deposit was the same amount. All the pots, pans etc. were already there, so all I really had to buy was bedding, towels and food. I cooked from scratch most days, so spent very little on food, and going out was even cheap, with canas at 1.20 a go and free tapas with every drink (sometimes quite substantial). I was able to simply register back then without proving anything, and I wouldn't be able to do that now.


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