# cheating in the classroom



## geaaronson

Having come through the US educational system and not having seen much cheating, I have been a bit surprised how open cheating is here in Mexico. I have been perturbed by it endlessly. From the very first year when I made friends with the hostel manager in Merida back in 2006 who told me he had passed his math course in his final year of high school by presenting the teacher with a bottle of tequila to the most recent revelation by a student just this week, I can but shake my head in wonderment.

Wednesday, being the last day of classes for the semester students milled around my desk to wish me adieu. One students, particularly fond of me, lingered more than the rest. I sensed that she had something special to tell me and started to tell me about some of the bad teachers that she had in grade school. I did not know where the conversation was going but assured that she was not directing it to a criticism of my teaching as I knew how appreciative she was about my teaching methods. Finally she got to the point.

Apparently her boyfriend was a student in another department at the same university. One of his teachers had a bribery scale. To pass his course one had to pay 200 pesos. To get a decent grade, 500 pesos and to get a perfect grade a 1,000 pesos. Of course I was angered, but also surprised that she had confided this in me. 

Minutes later outside the classroom she called me over to point out the teacher in question, who just happened to be passing by. I did hesitate but later when my own immediate superior crossed paths, I pulled him over and told him the story. He asked me who had told him and I did. Hopefully he will get to the bottom of this.

This had not been the first time that a teacher had been accused of taking bribes. Four years ago when I first started teaching at this university, a colleague who I did not particularly like left to take a full time position at the public university I had just left. I did not know why.

In the past few months I learned likewise that he had been asking for bribes to pass courses and had gotten fired. He was refused severance pay of 15,000 pesos. He took the school to court and won, but never was rehired.

I`ve had a few runins with corrupt teachers and stood my ground, to no avail. One was a department chair who was changing my grades for students downward for those she did not like. After 2 months I quit that job 6 years ago in DF.

Anyone out there got similar stories?


----------



## chicois8

" I did hesitate but later when my own immediate superior crossed paths, I pulled him over and told him the story. He asked me who had told him and I did."

FINK! Someone tells you something in confidence and you rat her out.......


----------



## ojosazules11

chicois8 said:


> " I did hesitate but later when my own immediate superior crossed paths, I pulled him over and told him the story. He asked me who had told him and I did."
> 
> FINK! Someone tells you something in confidence and you rat her out.......


I think it depends on what the young woman in question was hoping to achieve. Maybe she was hoping someone would take it to the school administration so this teacher could be stopped. Personally, I would've clarified with her if I had her agreement to inform the administration.


----------



## vantexan

chicois8 said:


> " I did hesitate but later when my own immediate superior crossed paths, I pulled him over and told him the story. He asked me who had told him and I did."
> 
> FINK! Someone tells you something in confidence and you rat her out.......


OK for her to tell him something but not for him to pass it along? I've read numerous times about the poor quality of many of Mexico's universities and if the above is true it's not doing students or Mexico any good. Students are shortchanged in their education and Mexico's workplace is filled with employees not prepared to meet the challenges of a developing economy.


----------



## geaaronson

Yes, I am certainly a stool pigeon. And yes, I would do it again whether or not what she told me was in confidence. It is her responsiblity to preface her remarks with the advisory that she did not want me to pass the information on to administration and at that point I would have clearly told her I could give her no such guarantee.

As educators we have the responsibility to maintain the integrity of the workplaces that give us employment. That takes precedence over being a "ratfink". So if you worked at the same place I did and you were guilty of this I wouldn´t hesitate to tell administration. I don´t need to ingratiate myself by being a stool pigeon so before you attribute those motives to me let me put that charge to bed. I have an excellent rapport with my school and don´t need to feed them with tidbits behind peoples backs. I do find the Mexican corruption to be particularly loathesome, or anywehre for that matter, and will not be a silent party to it. I hope that others talke similar action. Otherwise they are part of the problema

In the case of the prepa abierta in DF, I was silent about my boss´s cheating. She was an extremely small, aggressive woman who failed my tallest students. I found that reprehensible and quit rather than being a party to her chicanery. I did take her to task and voiced strong exception to her actions and she ordered me to maintain their lousy grades. As she was the one who was handing in teachers´grades on to the director, I had no recourse to correct them. I should have gone to the school director and explained the situation but did not. I feel bad for the two students who got the royal screwing as I did nothing further to redress their situation. For that I am guilty, for the recent "snitching", not.


----------



## ojosazules11

I agree 100% that you had a responsibility to inform the administration of this teacher's actions, just as you would if you were aware of a student cheating. I would just let the student who told you know that you have a responsibility to inform, so that she can be prepared if the administration wishes to talk to her about her disclosure. 

You are right that a "code of silence" in many institutions - and certainly not only in Mexico - propagates corruption and bullying, while those who want to do the right thing are all too often ostracized and marginalized. This leads to a toxic environment, whether at work, school or any other human institution.

I would want to let the young student know she did the right thing by telling me, and now I have to do the right thing by telling the Admin. However, I'm not implying that I think the way you handled this was wrong - I would be so outraged by this disclosure who knows how I would react in the moment.


----------



## geaaronson

Thank you blue eyes

That is the exact kind of advice I was hoping for. Somehow I did not feel completed by the situation unfinished. As this occurred but yesterday, I had not the opportunity to discuss it further with my student. If my boss put it on his priority list he would have spoken with her yesterday. I don´t know if he did.It+s quite posible by the time that I do warn her, he will already have spoken to her. If she doesn´t wish to get involved further, she could equivocate over the matter or just tell him she said no such thing. As it was her boyfriend who told her that information my boss would have to further interrogate him. I hope to warn her before my boss does talk with her but that is doubtful. Regardless I will discuss it further with her. Confidentiality is of course guaranteed by my person. I am not going to tell anyone who told me, nor am I going to tell anyone what she said other than the powers to be.

This situation could be an awkward one, particularly if the boyfriend is lying and just trying to get the teacher in trouble. I don´t know the boyfriend at all and wouldn´t even recognize him if I saw him.

At this point is up to my boss to investigate the situation. I would expect that he inform other members of the administration to keep their ears open about this situation or question the teacher directly and warn him that if they hear of any further complaints about such behaviour, they will let him go. I don´t know exactly how I would handle the situation if I were academic director, but generally along the lines as I have stated. I probably would speak with the head of that department and ask him if he had Heard similar complaints and warn him that the truth is essential, of course without being intimidating or threatening. Im a bit curious, anyone out there been in a similar situation and what did you do? These are moral quandaries as the recent fracas at Ft. Lee, NJ examplify. What do you do when someone is screwing the public or the clients in this case the education of our college students?


----------



## chicois8

I stand by my previous remark..........


----------



## RVGRINGO

I agree with the Rat Fink label if the student was named.
The student should not have been identified. Passing on the substance of the information was appropriate, but without jeopardizing a student. That student will never trust that teacher again; possibly others as well.


----------



## PanamaJack

I tend to agree more with labeling the poster a FINK than anything else. This goes on year after year and will continue whether you tell your superior or not. It is part of the culture and a foreign teacher in a foreign country ratting someone out will not change things but just make life worse for you. I also believe the student was probably exaggerating a bit and "pulling the wool" over your eyes. 

This goes back to the bribery post last year and whether it was right or not to bribe public workers i.e. police officers. This was going on when I was in school here in Mexico many years ago. I had a very good friend who flunked out of my school and paid the principal of another school for a year's worth of grades in order to graduate and attend a university the following year. 

For people from the U.S. it might seem WAY out of line and incorrect, just remember you are NO longer in the U.S. but in Mexico and to change things is difficult and borders on being disrespectful as you are not Mexican.


----------



## Isla Verde

PanamaJack said:


> I tend to agree more with labeling the poster a FINK than anything else. This goes on year after year and will continue whether you tell your superior or not. It is part of the culture and a foreign teacher in a foreign country ratting someone out will not change things but just make life worse for you. I also believe the student was probably exaggerating a bit and "pulling the wool" over your eyes.
> 
> This goes back to the bribery post last year and whether it was right or not to bribe public workers i.e. police officers. This was going on when I was in school here in Mexico many years ago. I had a very good friend who flunked out of my school and paid the principal of another school for a year's worth of grades in order to graduate and attend a university the following year.
> 
> For people from the U.S. it might seem WAY out of line and incorrect, just remember you are NO longer in the U.S. but in Mexico and to change things is difficult and borders on being disrespectful as you are not Mexican.


Let's keep in mind that while bribery appears to be more acceptable in Mexico than in our home countries, that doesn't mean that most Mexicans offer bribes for good grades or think that it's the right thing to do.


----------



## PanamaJack

Isla Verde said:


> Let's keep in mind that while bribery appears to be more acceptable in Mexico than in our home countries, that doesn't mean that most Mexicans offer bribes for good grades or think that it's the right thing to do.


I agree Isla, but Mexicans do not run to their teachers or superiors (if they are teachers) and rat out someone who accepts or pays a bribe. they tighten their boot straps and work harder to succeed on their own.. knowing in their own mind they are doing the right thing.


----------



## geaaronson

Okay I read you all well, but still vehemently disagree. Let me give you a corollary example and let´s see how you respond. Suppose instead of telling me that the teacher was taking bribes but that the school was a middle or high school and the teacher was having sex with a student. Would you still refrain from telling administration? Be honest.


----------



## PanamaJack

geaaronson said:


> Okay I read you all well, but still vehemently disagree. Let me give you a corollary example and let´s see how you respond. Suppose instead of telling me that the teacher was taking bribes but that the school was a middle or high school and the teacher was having sex with a student. Would you still refrain from telling administration? Be honest.


Your comparison is a JOKE. Your are talking about statutory rape and a bribe in the same sentence. Come on, if the student told me that I would beat the you know what out of the teacher, but you cannot compare apple and oranges.


----------



## geaaronson

Thank you panamá Jack. You gave me the answer that I expected but not hoped for. No, there is no comparison but it is a matter of situational ethics. When confronted with ethical choices, damned if we do, damned if we don´t, we have to make a decisión if not but not to make a decisión at all in this case would be not to pass the information on to a superior which would be a decisión.

You evidently don´t think that cheating is a serious offense. I do. And yes, it does not Rank up there with statutory rape of a minor, but regardless it is a serious offense, but in your eyes, not so serious as to jeopardize the relationship with a student, or keep a confidence (which did not exist). And this is exactly why corruption is so rampant in Mexico. 

No I will not be able to change the public mores in Mexico. It would be an extreme delusion for me to think so. It is also foolish for anyone to suggest I think that. I am not on a campaign to change Mexico. But as a teacher I have responsibilities to the educational process and its ethical conduct, regardless of my national origin.

I would hope that by this missive that other teachers will step forward and clamor for correcting similar situations. In the states, we have many teachers who don´t do anything about bullying. I know, I taught in the states. And yet when Columbine occurs, we question how could this have ever happened. It occurs because of the moral lapses of the teaching profession. We are the watchkeepers of student behaviour. When we are derelict in our duties, these things occur in our schools.


----------



## PanamaJack

geaaronson said:


> Thank you panamá Jack. You gave me the answer that I expected but not hoped for. No, there is no comparison but it is a matter of situational ethics. When confronted with ethical choices, damned if we do, damned if we don´t, we have to make a decisión if not but not to make a decisión at all in this case would be not to pass the information on to a superior which would be a decisión.
> 
> You evidently don´t think that cheating is a serious offense. I do. And yes, it does not Rank up there with statutory rape of a minor, but regardless it is a serious offense, but in your eyes, not so serious as to jeopardize the relationship with a student, or keep a confidence (which did not exist). And this is exactly why corruption is so rampant in Mexico.
> 
> No I will not be able to change the public mores in Mexico. It would be an extreme delusion for me to think so. It is also foolish for anyone to suggest I think that. I am not on a campaign to change Mexico. But as a teacher I have responsibilities to the educational process and its ethical conduct, regardless of my national origin.
> 
> I would hope that by this missive that other teachers will step forward and clamor for correcting similar situations. In the states, we have many teachers who don´t do anything about bullying. I know, I taught in the states. And yet when Columbine occurs, we question how could this have ever happened. It occurs because of the moral lapses of the teaching profession. We are the watchkeepers of student behaviour. When we are derelict in our duties, these things occur in our schools.



my dad worked for the state department for years, mom was a teacher. She taught English here in Mexico for years in a Catholic school. You remind me of how my mother was when she started. She was out to change the way Mexico teaches, etc., etc. Thirty plus years later education here is virtually the same. What happens in school is what happens everyday in Mexico. It is often not what you know but whom know, it is how much you can grease the pocket of someone in congress, the city, public works down to the police. If your are going to enjoy your life in Mexico you need to realized first and foremost there is little comparison between anything here and anything in the U.S. Good luck to you, but be careful I am sure the other teacher was not pleased to know you ratted him out.


----------



## TundraGreen

PanamaJack said:


> my dad worked for the state department for years, mom was a teacher. She taught English here in Mexico for years in a Catholic school. You remind me of how my mother was when she started. She was out to change the way Mexico teaches, etc., etc. Thirty plus years later education here is virtually the same. What happens in school is what happens everyday in Mexico. It is often not what you know but whom know, it is how much you can grease the pocket of someone in congress, the city, public works down to the police. If your are going to enjoy your life in Mexico you need to realized first and foremost there is little comparison between anything here and anything in the U.S. Good luck to you, but be careful I am sure the other teacher was not pleased to know you ratted him out.


Repeated use of the terms "rat" and "ratted" is an attitude that is part of the problem, namely that somehow loyalty to one's friends is somehow a greater virtue than combatting transgressions.

I believe one should adhere to the maxim, think globally, act locally. I don't harbor any illusions that the action of one person is going to magically change the world, but I still feel that I want to react when I see something wrong.


----------



## vantexan

PanamaJack said:


> my dad worked for the state department for years, mom was a teacher. She taught English here in Mexico for years in a Catholic school. You remind me of how my mother was when she started. She was out to change the way Mexico teaches, etc., etc. Thirty plus years later education here is virtually the same. What happens in school is what happens everyday in Mexico. It is often not what you know but whom know, it is how much you can grease the pocket of someone in congress, the city, public works down to the police. If your are going to enjoy your life in Mexico you need to realized first and foremost there is little comparison between anything here and anything in the U.S. Good luck to you, but be careful I am sure the other teacher was not pleased to know you ratted him out.


So basically anyone in Mexico who's in a position to benefit others through his power is in a position to accept "gratuities" if he so chooses.


----------



## PanamaJack

TundraGreen said:


> Repeated use of the terms "rat" and "ratted" is an attitude that is part of the problem, namely that somehow loyalty to one's friends is somehow a greater virtue than combatting transgressions.
> 
> Tundra you want utopia this is mexico. Students put trust in an authoritative figure like a teacher. Now that student will never trust again. What is more important holding that student's trust or combatting a transgression that is not yours to combat.


----------



## PanamaJack

vantexan said:


> So basically anyone in Mexico who's in a position to benefit others through his power is in a position to accept "gratuities" if he so chooses.


Basically yes. Bribery is rampant and do not think any different. I am not saying it is right, but when you have worked here for over twenty years you learn to accept and turn away. I have not do anything more than quiet a police officer or two. I have lost government contracts for security systems because of bribes by competitors, but I move on to the next potential customer I do not run to the local public ministry and complain.


----------



## geaaronson

Sorry to rain on your parade Panama. I have lived here for 8 years and have loved Mexico for even longer. I enjoy this country. But let´s face it-the country has problems, yes. And Mexicans themselves are perturbed by the amount of corruption. Supposedly the bottom third of the socioeconomic classes pay 7% of the their anual income to mordidas. 

No I am not going to change it. But I am fortunate enough to work at a school whose owner is particularly perturbed by the chicanery around him. The administrators and department chairs are also perturbed. Nor am I the only one who "rat finks" out corrupt behaviour at this school. Thankfully the owner/directors do something about it. This is the reason I have taught there for 4 years. They are more honest than most.

You don´t complain because you know it would not help you in eliminating the competition. I know if my complaints are substantiated, then the teacher will be discharged and the students less cynical. And yes, they are cynical. They see all around them how corrupt the system is. Andperhaps by maintaining a clean university, they will remember these four years as Golden years in which they were relatively free of the acid air of a corrupt society. It is much to your credit that you don´t bribe anyone to get a contract. I congratulate you.


----------



## TundraGreen

PanamaJack said:


> TundraGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Repeated use of the terms "rat" and "ratted" is an attitude that is part of the problem, namely that somehow loyalty to one's friends is somehow a greater virtue than combatting transgressions.
> 
> Tundra you want utopia this is mexico. Students put trust in an authoritative figure like a teacher. Now that student will never trust again. What is more important holding that student's trust or combatting a transgression that is not yours to combat.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you want the student's to learn that bribery should not be a part of life, or do you want to send the message that things should be that way.
Click to expand...


----------



## TundraGreen

PanamaJack said:


> Basically yes. Bribery is rampant and do not think any different. I am not saying it is right, but when you have worked here for over twenty years you learn to accept and turn away. I have not do anything more than quiet a police officer or two. I have lost government contracts for security systems because of bribes by competitors, but I move on to the next potential customer I do not run to the local public ministry and complain.


Thus guaranteeing that the situation will never change.


----------



## Belizegirl

Thankyou, Tundragreen for your responses on this thread. I am working on raising children here and have not, and will not, show them that bribery is okay.


----------



## geaaronson

Good belizegirl. It´s nice to hear there are people who maintain their integrity. 

The interesting thing is that at my school there was a teacher 4 years ago who had been hitting up parents to pass their kids. He got canned. Who "ratted" him, I don´t know. It certainly wasn´t me as I did not learn of his actions until about 6 months ago.

At the other school I had been teaching at, a woman teacher was fired for having an affair with a student. The academic director had also explicitly warned one of my English teacher colleagues of keeping his pecker in his pants, ( crude phraseology, I agree) with the high school students as he had a reputation of cheating on his wife with some of the other teachers. He used to be followed by a flock of teenyboppers from class to class, all enamoured with him, so the director´s warnings were probably well justified and on the mark. I don´t know what ever happened with him other than that his wife wised up and kicked him out of the house.


----------



## geaaronson

It´s interesting as well that in 8 years time in Mexico I have learned more about the misdeeds of students, colleagues and bosses than in all my years in the states. I don´t believe that the wrongdoing is so much very greater-it´s that Mexicans are much more open about cheating on their wives, cheating at school, cheating in life in general. Perhaps it´s the Catholic need for confession. I don´t know.

In the states if a friend was cheating he wouldn´t admit to it. I believe Americans are much more judgmental so if you stray from the path, you get a severe disapproving reprimand-whereas it´s more acceptable here. But are you really? Is it just lip service? Do your friends talk behind your back about the fact that you are jeopardising your wonderful intact family with three Little children, but to your face congratulate you on being a "damn good mujeriego"?


----------



## emilybcruz

I agree with the OP. As an educator, they have a responsibility to do what is good and just for all of their students in the long run and that takes precedence over the confidence of one specific student/teacher relationship. I would hope that this was discussed with the students before it was taken to the supervisor's attention? Regardless, sometimes doing the right thing makes you a "fink." That word soungs disgustingly rude to me but maybe it's just my generation. 

Also I hate to be the one to burst some of your bubbles but bribery is equally rampant in the United States. It's just not as obvious and doesn't affect as many different social classes as it does in Mexico. 

With that being said, the idea that Mexico is corrupt and we should all just accept that is quite sad. That's like saying one person can't make a difference. I don't mean to sound cliche, but what if Martin Luther King had said "I have a dream... nevermind. I could never change the world." Sitting back with our hands crossed and accepting things that are wrong, no matter what country we are in is just that. Wrong.


----------



## PanamaJack

With that being said, the idea that Mexico is corrupt and we should all just accept that is quite sad. That's like saying one person can't make a difference. I don't mean to sound cliche, but what if Martin Luther King had said "I have a dream... nevermind. I could never change the world." Sitting back with our hands crossed and accepting things that are wrong, no matter what country we are in is just that. Wrong.[/QUOTE]

You live in mexico, but will never be a Mexican regardless if you become a naturalized citizen. let Mexicans fix what is wrong. Take a poll, maybe so many are indifferent about it that they want it left the way it is and who are you or me from the U.S. to tell Mexicans what is right or wrong? 
I agree with what MLK did, but do you think an American would protest in Russia against Putin or in Afghanistan against Karzai? Being from the U.S. we may "believe" what is best for Mexicans in our own mind, but do we have a right to tell them? What is right for us may not be for them? That is saying that EVERYTHING that comes from the U.S. is better than the way it is done here. WRONG! I much prefer the ways things work here in general.


----------



## emilybcruz

PanamaJack said:


> You live in mexico, but will never be a Mexican regardless if you become a naturalized citizen. let Mexicans fix what is wrong. Take a poll, maybe so many are indifferent about it that they want it left the way it is and who are you or me from the U.S. to tell Mexicans what is right or wrong?
> I agree with what MLK did, but do you think an American would protest in Russia against Putin or in Afghanistan against Karzai? Being from the U.S. we may "believe" what is best for Mexicans in our own mind, but do we have a right to tell them? What is right for us may not be for them? That is saying that EVERYTHING that comes from the U.S. is better than the way it is done here. WRONG! I much prefer the ways things work here in general.


Twisting my words Jack... As I said "bribery is equally rampant in the United States." It's wrong there, it's wrong here, or anywhere. Obviously I don't think that everything is better in the US. That was never said, but nice try.

My husband is a Mexican national currently currently studying. A few weeks back, he was scrambling to finish an assignment before it was due. At one point he turned to me and said, "I'm just not going to do it. There's no way I'll ever finish. But it's okay, I'll just bring my teacher a burrito for breakfast and he'll give me a 7." I was blown away and his little comment turned into a very long discussion about right/wrong. Mexican, American, Chilean, Russian, I don't care who you are or where you're from but cheating is not right. Nor is murder, rape, theft, etc. I am not comparing cheating to the latter, only saying that right is right and wrong is wrong. This isn't about what we "believe" is right for Mexicans. It's clear as day, common sense.

On a completely different note, one of the beautiful things about immigration is that not only do you get to learn about the place that you immigrate to, but those people get to learn about you and where you come from. So to say that you're in Mexico now and and you don't have a "right" to tell Mexicans how you think/feel/live is just inaccurate. This isn't political warfare we're talking about, this is (again) basic right/wrong. It's an issue of morals and the human race all has the same principal morals, regardless of what country they were born in.


----------



## PanamaJack

On a completely different note, one of the beautiful things about immigration is that not only do you get to learn about the place that you immigrate to, but those people get to learn about you and where you come from. So to say that you're in Mexico now and and you don't have a "right" to tell Mexicans how you think/feel/live is just inaccurate. This isn't political warfare we're talking about, this is (again) basic right/wrong. It's an issue of morals and the human race all has the same principal morals, regardless of what country they were born in.[/QUOTE]

I respect your opinion and was not trying to twist anyone's words. But i still disagree with you. Bribery has been around in Mexico for centuries and is considered by some intellectuals to be part of the culture and that is where I draw the line. I am not going to tell any Mexican that his or her culture is wrong. I turn the other cheek and walk away. I will not pay them or accept them other than to a police officer that i admit I have done. Your choice is to tell people what you see has right and wrong, I perfer not to do what I feel is not my right. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/24/w...ed-even-as-it-hurts-mexican-economy.html?_r=0


----------



## emilybcruz

PanamaJack said:


> I respect your opinion and was not trying to twist anyone's words. But i still disagree with you. Bribery has been around in Mexico for centuries and is considered by some intellectuals to be part of the culture and that is where I draw the line. I am not going to tell any Mexican that his or her culture is wrong. I turn the other cheek and walk away. I will not pay them or accept them other than to a police officer that i admit I have done. Your choice is to tell people what you see has right and wrong, I perfer not to do what I feel is not my right.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/24/w...ed-even-as-it-hurts-mexican-economy.html?_r=0


I apologize, I felt as though you were twisting my words when you quoted me and then said "That is saying that EVERYTHING that comes from the U.S. is better than the way it is done here," which was not at all what I was saying.

For me, this is a more personal issue because I am married to a Mexican national who came from a poor family, and was brought up to just take life as it is, and never try to change anything. He has wonderful parents, bless their hearts, but they were also taught that, "this is just the way life is and there's nothing you can do about it." There are certain things about life in Mexico that many of it's nationals just consider to be givens, and this is one of them. And many of these things have led the country to be what it is today, and led people like my husband to come North out of desperation, even when they shouldn't have (i.e. didn't have permission)

This is also a personal issue because my own family has struggles with generational poverty. Same problem. People get it in their heads that the way things are is the way they will always be and the cycle continues. This is a very big subject. It's very complex. It's not just about the simple act of cheating in school. It's about a person's self-worth and what they think they can/can't do in the world. 

If people are taught that they have to buy their grades, or buy themselves out of any situation, and they are a poverty stricken person, they are bound to think that they will never go anywhere in life. Because without money, without bribery, there is no advancing? 

This is exactly the attitude which fuels this viscious cycle that has been the ruin of many people who were full of potential to be better. But it will never end if it is just accepted.


----------



## ojosazules11

PanamaJack said:


> You live in mexico, but will never be a Mexican regardless if you become a naturalized citizen. let Mexicans fix what is wrong. Take a poll, maybe so many are indifferent about it that they want it left the way it is and who are you or me from the U.S. to tell Mexicans what is right or wrong?
> I agree with what MLK did, but do you think an American would protest in Russia against Putin or in Afghanistan against Karzai? Being from the U.S. we may "believe" what is best for Mexicans in our own mind, but do we have a right to tell them? What is right for us may not be for them? That is saying that EVERYTHING that comes from the U.S. is better than the way it is done here. WRONG! I much prefer the ways things work here in general.
> 
> Bribery has been around in Mexico for centuries and is considered by some intellectuals to be part of the culture and that is where I draw the line. I am not going to tell any Mexican that his or her culture is wrong. I turn the other cheek and walk away. I will not pay them or accept them other than to a police officer that i admit I have done. Your choice is to tell people what you see has right and wrong, I perfer not to do what I feel is not my right.


This post touches on significant issues of culture and identity, of human migration and human rights, of being bound to the place and culture to which we are born vs seeking out a culture and place where we find we belong. And once we belong, do we have a right to participate fully in that place and culture? This subject calls for a thesis, which would likely result in as many opinions as people interviewed. But today I don’t have time for a thesis, just for a rant, so here goes.

Jack, Jack, you threw me for a loop with this post. Do you mean when students are fired on in Tianmen Square, when woefully underpaid garment workers die in the collapse of a shoddily-built factory (which was built with people being “paid off” at various levels to ignore blatant safety infractions), when young women are killed because they somehow besmirched the family’s honour, or perhaps acid is thrown on their face because they rebuffed a would-be suitor to protect the family’s honor, when university students and those working with the poorest of the poor are “disappeared” or left dead & tortured by the side of the road by the death squads, when entire villages are massacred in the highlands of Guatemala, when journalists are targeted and killed for exposing political corruption and graft, etc. etc. etc., well, I really don’t have any right to speak out because I was not born in that country and culture? I guess Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, PEN international are all stepping over that line you’ve drawn in the sand.

Actually, blatant human rights violations aside, based on your argument, foreign-born and raised Henry Kissinger had no right to get involved in U.S. politics. Same for the many municipal, provincial and federal politicians in Canada who were born elsewhere, but are now actively civically engaged in Canadian politics, society and culture. 

You are partly basing your reasoning on the fact that Mexican “intellectuals” have made an argument that this type of corruption is historically part of the culture. I in no way wish to impugn anyone, so I will presume that for them it is purely an intellectual argument, and that they personally and/or their families have in no way benefited from this “culture” of graft, bribery, and skimming off funds. However, the many Mexicans I have discussed these issues with are “del barrio”, ordinary people, socioeconomically on the lower end of the spectrum, those who have no opportunity to benefit from this “cultural practice”. Also, many of them would not avail themselves of this even if they could, because they are honest and honourable. Maybe that’s why they remain poor. However, before anyone accuses me of promoting class warfare, I also know there are many intellectuals, Mexican to the core, who make passionate and cogent arguments against this pervasive "culture" of corruption. I do not believe the majority of Mexicans are indifferent to this problem, although they may have become cynical, jaded, and weary over the years. 

Nevertheless, I agree that corruption and bribery are rife throughout Mexican institutions – starting at the top, where the wealthiest are the ones who benefit the most, so I would not be surprised if some of the country’s elites prefer to defend this as part of some warped “cultural heritage”. This style of “trickle-down economics” makes its way down the chain, to the local municipal level, each one seeing their superiors take more, and this mentality of “If they can do it, so can I” rots the system. My Mexican husband notes that when an honest person tries to make a difference within the system, often they pay a huge price. A police officer sees a colleague on the take with the narcos, and reports it to his superior. What he doesn’t realize that his superior is in on it, too, and so he is the one who is fired - or worse - for asking too many questions. 

However, the vast majority of Mexicans, those at the lowest rung are the ones who pay and pay and pay, with no payback. They pay the mordidas, they pay for government services which are supposed to be gratuitos, they pay when this “culture” of corruption rots societal institutions at all levels, and then you get some young punks who see this all around them, so really what is the difference if they get a gun, gather other punks with guns around them, and form a gang which starts terrorizing the neighbourhood – threatening honest, hard-working people, forcing them to pay a monthly “tax” or “vacuna” (vaccine) or pay the ultimate price. This is the daily reality in Honduras, Guatemala, and El Salvador. I’ve heard of similar stories in Mexico, although fortunately it is not as generalized as in Central America. But the roots are the same. (I realize I am simplifying -- the roots of the violence and societal break-down in Central America are much more complex, and U.S. geopolitics has also played a major role in the dysfunction of those societies.)

I've barely touched on the subject of cultural identity, migration, and civic participation in an adopted country but the kids are off to school, I’m off to work, so that will need to wait for another rant, er, post.

Buen día a todos.


----------



## AlanMexicali

"However, the vast majority of Mexicans, those at the lowest rung are the ones who pay and pay and pay, with no payback. They pay the mordidas, they pay for government services which are supposed to be gratuitos, they pay when this “culture” of corruption rots societal institutions at all levels, and then you get some young punks who see this all around them, so really what is the difference..... "


This part of your rant has so much naivete I have to comment.

The billions of transactions that take place weekly in all gov´t. institutions at all levels are done according to the rules and done with a good conscience by almost I would guess 90 to 95 percent or more of the employees with no corruption involved. The very few minority of transactions involving dishonestly and this is very regional and área or gov´t, specific and very inconsistant and at times once in a blue moon, has Little to do with the vast majority of The Mexican, poor or well off and doesn´t have anyone [at least very many outside the deals they are involved in] "paying, paying and paying" for any of it. The ones suffering are suffering for completely different reasons and corruption in Mexico actually most likely helps many poor keep food on the table. 

If it was a fascist regime that you compare the Latin American countries to at different times in history as being the examples and comparable levels of corruption that cause those injustices I would advise you to study history.

Mexico has been well intrenched in skimming since all the land owners with Spanish Land grants 500 years ago, some soldiers of the Cortez era who had all the gold, silver, and other riches the Conquistadors sent back to Spain and left only with barren land for their efforts, a very greedy King and Pope at the time, had not skimmed from these 2 tyrants Mexico would never have developoed into a wealthy colony and been able to survive in those days. Many Kings and Popes afterwards were almost as greedy, but these 2 took the cake.

It was a great honor to die at the hands of the Spanish Crown in Spain when caught by the many informers, mainly priests, skimming. Your legacy lived on in your family and friends who benefited from your time of profiteering, many built churches and gov´t plazas and are praised to this day. How many State Governors in Mexico ended up swinging on the gallows in Spain? How many have stautes of them in their capital cities today? How many have streets and towns named after them, etc?

Try do do some extensive research on Mexico´s history before moralizing a people who honor men with guts to do things regardless of what oppessive force tries to keep them from succeeding. [example rules and laws that do not do any good almost all of the time].

You live where rules are only good for a small majority of people then "that" rule is up for review by those who it oppresses.

Don´t become a noisy old lady Republican sticking your noise into everyone´s business! Many educated Mexicans resent these types foreigners with the right to do so as they don´t regard their input worthy of consideration.


Moralizing is best left NOB. IMO


----------



## Longford

False allegations are a dime a dozen in Mexico, from what I've observed - not just in education. It's a touchy subject. Advancing such allegations shouldn't be made lightly and both the student and teacher are entitled to some level of protection, at the start. I've taught at the university level in Mexico and I resigned my position at one school because of the way in which the school advanced students from one level to another - not because of competency, but because the school (and maybe an administrator) was paid for another course of study. If a student of mine had come forward with such an allegation/report of bribe asking/taking I think I would have reported it to my department chair or school administrator but would have first asked the student if I could use the names of the student(s) involved. Both the student and teacher advancing the allegations up the chain of command do so with risk, that the allegations are false or by being identified as "disloyal". My belief and experience has been that Mexico and many Mexican are so very corrupt; and that the corruption is part of the national DNA. Changes in that situation will not change unless and until honest people come forward. A course of action in the situation presented here might not be as 'cut and dry' as one will first think.


----------



## Longford

ojosazules11 said:


> However, the vast majority of Mexicans, those at the lowest rung are the ones who pay and pay and pay, with no payback. They pay the mordidas, they pay for government services which are supposed to be gratuitos, they pay when this “culture” of corruption rots societal institutions at all levels, and then you get some young punks who see this all around them, so really what is the difference if they get a gun, gather other punks with guns around them, and form a gang which starts terrorizing the neighbourhood – threatening honest, hard-working people, forcing them to pay a monthly “tax” or “vacuna” (vaccine) or pay the ultimate price.


:clap2:


----------



## GARYJ65

geaaronson said:


> It´s interesting as well that in 8 years time in Mexico I have learned more about the misdeeds of students, colleagues and bosses than in all my years in the states. I don´t believe that the wrongdoing is so much very greater-it´s that Mexicans are much more open about cheating on their wives, cheating at school, cheating in life in general. Perhaps it´s the Catholic need for confession. I don´t know.
> 
> In the states if a friend was cheating he wouldn´t admit to it. I believe Americans are much more judgmental so if you stray from the path, you get a severe disapproving reprimand-whereas it´s more acceptable here. But are you really? Is it just lip service? Do your friends talk behind your back about the fact that you are jeopardising your wonderful intact family with three Little children, but to your face congratulate you on being a "damn good mujeriego"?


If I am understanding it right; Mexicans need to do it in order to have something to confess? Even as a joke it is not good.
Cheating, lying corruption, is it only happening in Mexico? Americans do not know anything about it? They have never done it? Do they really have to come to Mexico and then be, as they say now; in aw about how we live in Mexico ? Come on! Yes, we do have problems with corruption in Mexico, we have to solve them, I agree. As a system, we do not teach our children how to cheat, deceive and lie, some people do, most don't. This applies everywhere in this planet called earth.
I can not buy the idea of Americans being so much shocked by how different things are here and then make the objective of their lives to discuss and criticize about everything. There are many solutions to this: one would be to stay at home and don't come here, we do not need critics. Another one is to come here and help out, we would very much appreciate that, but without comparing so much, it is useless, besides, we could write a book, many books about cases of corruption, lies, deceiving, etc, in many many other countries, US included


----------



## ojosazules11

AlanMexicali said:


> This part of your rant has so much naivete I have to comment.
> 
> The billions of transactions that take place weekly in all gov´t. institutions at all levels are done according to the rules and done with a good conscience by almost I would guess 90 to 95 percent or more of the employees with no corruption involved. The very few minority of transactions involving dishonestly and this is very regional and área or gov´t, specific and very inconsistant and at times once in a blue moon, has Little to do with the vast majority of The Mexican, poor or well off and doesn´t have anyone [at least very many outside the deals they are involved in] "paying, paying and paying" for any of it.
> 
> ......
> 
> You live where rules are only good for a small majority of people then "that" rule is up for review by those who it oppresses.
> 
> Don´t become a noisy old lady Republican sticking your noise into everyone´s business! Many educated Mexicans resent these types foreigners with the right to do so as they don´t regard their input worthy of consideration.
> 
> Moralizing is best left NOB. IMO


I stand corrected and agree that the vast majority of daily transactions at the civil service level are conducted honestly, and to all those dedicated civil servants who are carrying out their duties with honesty and integrity I apologize for implying otherwise. 

I disagree that the entrenchment of corruption benefits the poor, and I base that not on NOB moralizing but on discussions with ordinary Mexicans who get fed up with the corruption. In Tepoztlan a few years back, a police chief known for corruption elsewhere was transferred to Tepoz, and he brought some of his hand-picked cronies with him. The townspeople did not take kindly to his brand of corruption, and were able to get rid of him, making him someone else's problem. 

This thread all started with the OP posting about reporting an allegation of a professor charging students to pass them, double the price if they wanted a decent grade. The OP passed this information on to the administration, leaving them to investigate if true or not. For this he was labelled a "fink" by some, and as disrespectful to Mexican culture by others. Like Longford, I would have spoken with the student first, and if she really did not want to be involved in discussing it with the admin, I would likely have presented it to the administrator as an allegation made by a student who did not wish to be named, recognizing this would limit what they could do about it, but at least it would put them on the alert. But others have indicated he should have just kept his mouth shut, because he is not Mexican, which in my opinion is being disrespectful to his employer and to the students - especially those who can't afford to pay - perhaps this money would have "put food on the table" of that poor professor, but it could have taken it off the table of a family which had scrimped and saved to send their child to university. MXN$1000 represents 10 days' wages for my sister-in-law. 

My rant was more about the post which I interpreted as saying that unless you are born in Mexico, you have no right to be involved in a dialogue about corruption in Mexico. That is where I disagree. I think we can all - North, South, East, West - be involved in a global dialogue about certain universal human rights and universal values. In no way do I think I have more of a right to discuss issues in Mexico or elsewhere in the world, than people in other countries would have to critique issues in the US or Canada- and I agree there is plenty to critique. At this point in human history we are more interconnected than ever, and I want to hear the viewpoints of people living in different parts of the world. 

Although I was born and raised in Nebraska, and I had a great childhood, it was never the right fit for me. When I discovered Latin America in my teens (Mexico being my first exposure) it was and still is where I feel most at home, mas hallada, mas realizada. A large part of my world view has been shaped by Latin America and her people. When I talk about the impact of corruption, I am drawing on what I have learned from thinkers, writers, activists and civic leaders from various Latin American countries (where degrees of corruption are also endemic), people who are civic minded and passionate about human rights and the rule of law (that law being determined by each sovereign nation - I am not trying to suggest imposition of NOB style laws onto Mexico or any other country). I think about the lively, vigorous & rigorous conversations I've participated in, and learned from and been shaped by - if I followed the opinions of those who say I don't really have the right to express my views because I wasn't born in Mexico, I would have missed out on so much. 

Alan, I also cede to you that Mexico and her government cannot be equated to the past governments/military dictatorships in other parts of Latin America. Quite the opposite, Mexico has been a safe haven for many fleeing the violence in other countries. I do know a fair amount of Mexico's history, likely not as much as you. The history I know best is that of Central America, as well as a fair amount about several South American countries. I am going to start reading more history - it's been on my to-do list for awhile. 

Gary, I hope my comments did not make you think I consider most Mexicans to be dishonest or corrupt - I do not, which is why I had a visceral reaction to the implication that by reporting a colleague's alleged corruption, the OP was being disrespectful to Mexican culture, because corruption is somehow culturally acceptable. As my husband said, "Just because it is common does not mean it is generally considered acceptable or that it is an inherent part of our culture." He likened it to a cancer, or to a parasitic plant which has attached itself to the tree and become invasive. 

Now, Alan, about that "noisy old lady Republican sticking your noise into everyone´s business" remark. 

Noisy, perhaps - one of the reasons I fit right in with the roosters, cohetes, mariachis, barking dogs, music blasting, horns blaring, birds singing and all the rest if it. 

Old: depends on how you define it - old enough to have a daughter in her 20's, young enough to have another who is 10, with far too many years left until retirement. 

Lady: no comment

Republican: You gotta be kidding!!! What on earth gave you that idea?


----------



## Guategringo

Ojos Azules I admire your passion, your beliefs and the vast experience you have of South, Central and North America. I too have some but it is mainly Central America. I moved to Guatemala in 1990 and fell in love, first with the country, its people, customs, traditions, food, etc, etc and then my wife.

With the exception of about one year in Mexico, Guatemala has been home. Corruption is rampant in Guatemala and it has touched me first hand. In a previous thread on this site about bribery, I admitted to paying a bribe to a government entity to win a contract. 

I have also put Q100 (US$12.50) into the hands of police officers on about a dozen occasions. Now before anyone jumps down my throat, as so many are accustomed to do on this forum, I am not bragging about doing that. I am simply stating a fact that I, as a foreigner living in Guatemala have been exposed first hand to corruption. 

Here the corruption starts from the top and works its way down to the bottom. The country has only been a democracy for 30 to 40 years and is going through growing pains. However, when presidents leave office after four years and the well has been run dry then the rest of the 14 million people tend to believe corruption cannot be that bad. 

I believe the OP did the wrong thing. I believe a discussion should have been held with the student and if the student agreed to, then use his or her name, otherwise tell the school’s director that you heard a rumor about a certain fellow teacher.

My father in law is a lawyer and has represented some of the biggest corporations in Guatemala. The same companies that often times are the ones doing the bribing. He has been a lawyer since 1980. He earned a law degree in Guatemala and one in the U.S. He has been my attorney in legal proceedings with regard to my business here and is aware of what I did to win a contract from the government. He has told me numerous times that corruption is part of the society here and will be hard to eradicate.

I am saying all this because many of the expats in Mexico and around the world are retired and do not deal in business on a daily basis. They do not see what happens and how it happens. Of course, they can base their opinion on how it was when they worked in the U.S. or Canada, but it is not the same as in Latin America where corruption is quite simply a way of life.


----------



## ojosazules11

30 years ago I was driving a car with a Kansas licence plate in Tapachula. In Kansas - at least back then - they only used a single plate on the rear of the car, none on the front. I was stopped on a side street by a police officer and informed I had to pay a fine for not having a plate on the front. Didn't matter that I didn't have a choice to have 2 plates in Kansas, in Mexico 2 plates were required. When he took a screwdriver out of his front pocket to start removing the plate from the car, I gave him what he expected "for his coffee". "La cultura del refresco" my husband calls it. 

2 years ago in Puebla I was driving my stepson's car. Coming off the highway there was a checkpoint where cars were being randomly stopped. I didn't realize that when my stepson had bought the car second hand from an acquaintance, he had not done the paperwork to transfer it to his name, and the permit was expired. So here I am with a Canadian licence, driving a car in the name of someone I don't even know with an expired permit. A fine would have been quite justified. 

Instead, the officer sent me on my way - no fine, no mordida - just the friendly advice that my stepson get the car transferred to his name and the permit up dated as soon as possible, or he could face a hefty fine. My stepson is convinced that if he had been driving he would not have gotten off so easy. 

Go figure.


----------



## emilybcruz

ojosazules11 said:


> I stand corrected and agree that the vast majority of daily transactions at the civil service level are conducted honestly, and to all those dedicated civil servants who are carrying out their duties with honesty and integrity I apologize for implying otherwise.
> 
> I disagree that the entrenchment of corruption benefits the poor, and I base that not on NOB moralizing but on discussions with ordinary Mexicans who get fed up with the corruption. In Tepoztlan a few years back, a police chief known for corruption elsewhere was transferred to Tepoz, and he brought some of his hand-picked cronies with him. The townspeople did not take kindly to his brand of corruption, and were able to get rid of him, making him someone else's problem.
> 
> This thread all started with the OP posting about reporting an allegation of a professor charging students to pass them, double the price if they wanted a decent grade. The OP passed this information on to the administration, leaving them to investigate if true or not. For this he was labelled a "fink" by some, and as disrespectful to Mexican culture by others. Like Longford, I would have spoken with the student first, and if she really did not want to be involved in discussing it with the admin, I would likely have presented it to the administrator as an allegation made by a student who did not wish to be named, recognizing this would limit what they could do about it, but at least it would put them on the alert. But others have indicated he should have just kept his mouth shut, because he is not Mexican, which in my opinion is being disrespectful to his employer and to the students - especially those who can't afford to pay - perhaps this money would have "put food on the table" of that poor professor, but it could have taken it off the table of a family which had scrimped and saved to send their child to university. MXN$1000 represents 10 days' wages for my sister-in-law.
> 
> My rant was more about the post which I interpreted as saying that unless you are born in Mexico, you have no right to be involved in a dialogue about corruption in Mexico. That is where I disagree. I think we can all - North, South, East, West - be involved in a global dialogue about certain universal human rights and universal values. In no way do I think I have more of a right to discuss issues in Mexico or elsewhere in the world, than people in other countries would have to critique issues in the US or Canada- and I agree there is plenty to critique. At this point in human history we are more interconnected than ever, and I want to hear the viewpoints of people living in different parts of the world.
> 
> Although I was born and raised in Nebraska, and I had a great childhood, it was never the right fit for me. When I discovered Latin America in my teens (Mexico being my first exposure) it was and still is where I feel most at home, mas hallada, mas realizada. A large part of my world view has been shaped by Latin America and her people. When I talk about the impact of corruption, I am drawing on what I have learned from thinkers, writers, activists and civic leaders from various Latin American countries (where degrees of corruption are also endemic), people who are civic minded and passionate about human rights and the rule of law (that law being determined by each sovereign nation - I am not trying to suggest imposition of NOB style laws onto Mexico or any other country). I think about the lively, vigorous & rigorous conversations I've participated in, and learned from and been shaped by - if I followed the opinions of those who say I don't really have the right to express my views because I wasn't born in Mexico, I would have missed out on so much.
> 
> Alan, I also cede to you that Mexico and her government cannot be equated to the past governments/military dictatorships in other parts of Latin America. Quite the opposite, Mexico has been a safe haven for many fleeing the violence in other countries. I do know a fair amount of Mexico's history, likely not as much as you. The history I know best is that of Central America, as well as a fair amount about several South American countries. I am going to start reading more history - it's been on my to-do list for awhile.
> 
> Gary, I hope my comments did not make you think I consider most Mexicans to be dishonest or corrupt - I do not, which is why I had a visceral reaction to the implication that by reporting a colleague's alleged corruption, the OP was being disrespectful to Mexican culture, because corruption is somehow culturally acceptable. As my husband said, "Just because it is common does not mean it is generally considered acceptable or that it is an inherent part of our culture." He likened it to a cancer, or to a parasitic plant which has attached itself to the tree and become invasive.
> 
> Now, Alan, about that "noisy old lady Republican sticking your noise into everyone´s business" remark.
> 
> Noisy, perhaps - one of the reasons I fit right in with the roosters, cohetes, mariachis, barking dogs, music blasting, horns blaring, birds singing and all the rest if it.
> 
> Old: depends on how you define it - old enough to have a daughter in her 20's, young enough to have another who is 10, with far too many years left until retirement.
> 
> Lady: no comment
> 
> Republican: You gotta be kidding!!! What on earth gave you that idea?


If I was as educated and eloquent as you, I would have the exact same response. Here, here!


----------



## AlanMexicali

ojosazules11 said:


> I disagree that the entrenchment of corruption benefits the poor, and I base that not on NOB moralizing but on discussions with ordinary Mexicans who get fed up with the corruption. In Tepoztlan a few years back, a police chief known for corruption elsewhere was transferred to Tepoz, and he brought some of his hand-picked cronies with him. The townspeople did not take kindly to his brand of corruption, and were able to get rid of him, making him someone else's problem.
> 
> .......................................................
> 
> Now, Alan, about that "noisy old lady Republican sticking your noise into everyone´s business" remark.
> 
> Noisy, perhaps - one of the reasons I fit right in with the roosters, cohetes, mariachis, barking dogs, music blasting, horns blaring, birds singing and all the rest if it.
> 
> Old: depends on how you define it - old enough to have a daughter in her 20's, young enough to have another who is 10, with far too many years left until retirement.
> 
> Lady: no comment
> 
> Republican: You gotta be kidding!!! What on earth gave you that idea?


I state some forms of corruption might actual benefit the poor.

In reality corruption here does not most times involve any one in a postion of authority getting a peso for their decision to break a law or rule, if you actual know many people in all situation for a very long time and can speak good Spanish.

Most of it involves people having the guts to let people off the hook if they want to and can without getting in trouble [commonalitiy amongst the group involved]

A perfect example is this; In Mexicali and TJ you are "suppossed" to have a building permit" and inspectors etc. In reality these 2 cities are very ugly with tens of thousands of crappy unkeep buildings and houses and empty lots traditionally for 50 years or more. The state, municipal and local authorities do not charge/fine people who break the law and rules and build what they want on the their property. Why? They have the idea that any improvement is a very good thing and replaces the horrible crap that everyone has to look at everytime they drive around their city. Corruption YES, Officials getting bribes, NO. Civic pride in their cities. Yes. 

This is having the guts to do things where the law and rules are oppressing people because of the high cost: architect, plans, zoning regulations, building inspectors, licensed contractors, CFE rules and regulations [CFE there doesn´t question, only installs service after your fill out the form ] etc. 

This example is one of millions where the rules are forgotten to benefit Paisanos - no money given to anyone involved.

Another is favoritism. Give the important person something for free or under the table that does not involve a single peso. Access to a service without any paperwork. You are breaking the rules but didn´t get a peso to do it. Corruption yes, bribe no. Helping someone you know is a big shot and important, yes.

If you know a burrito gets you out of a jam like your husband knows is this really paying a $14 peso bribe? No it is a Paisano helping another Paisano out of a jam by the goodness of his heart and a sense of communion that the burrito really had no part in. It was a simple jestor of; Thanks friend. 

Moralizing and focusing on pettiness here will get you underwater in Mexico. 


I stated don´t "become" a noisy old lady Republican ..." I didn´t say you are one, yet.


----------



## lagoloo

How about blatant disregard for building regulations; like building a three story house where two is the limit, and this in areas where ugly is not a problem, and the wrong doers are well off?
One of the people doing it just said "I know the right people" and built to his heart's content.
Hmmm?


----------



## TundraGreen

AlanMexicali said:


> I state some forms of corruption might actual benefit the poor.


 When those houses collapse in the next earthquake, or a cholera epidemic breaks out because of the faulty or non-existent sewer connections, or a fire breaks out because of the faulty wiring, will you still argue that the corruption benefits the poor?


----------



## AlanMexicali

TundraGreen said:


> When those houses collapse in the next earthquake, or a cholera epidemic breaks out because of the faulty or non-existent sewer connections, or a fire breaks out because of the faulty wiring, will you still argue that the corruption benefits the poor?


Actually over the years I do understand a few casualities will possibly happen but many also will not and millions of pesos are saved by those constructing structures in very many places. I doubt ejidos and small towns need permits either in many states.

It´s similar to non FDA appoved medicines sold in Mexico .. a few might die but many more will benefit from them being available here. The limit liability here makes amny things more affordable comapred to NOB.

Same idea when you fall in a hole on a public place and break your leg .. it´s your fault you didn´t watch were your were walking not the people who dug the hole or left the cover off after someone stole it.


----------



## GARYJ65

Hound dog or someone else commented a short while ago about buying a condo in the US, these condo was built so badly that developed big damages and the builders did not fix it. They used low quality materials and skipped the regulations for building.
Since this only happens in Mexico, I guess they were Mexican builders don't you agree?


----------



## GARYJ65

AlanMexicali said:


> Actually over the years I do understand a few casualities will possibly happen but many also will not and millions of pesos are saved by those constructing structures in very many places. I doubt ejidos and small towns need permits either in many states.
> 
> It´s similar to non FDA appoved medicines sold in Mexico .. a few might die but many more will benefit from them being available here. The limit liability here makes amny things more affordable comapred to NOB.
> 
> Same idea when you fall in a hole on a public place and break your leg .. it´s your fault you didn´t watch were your were walking not the people who dug the hole or left the cover off after someone stole it.


Besides, not all Countries are ruled by US standards, some Mexican as well as other Countries standards are based on USDA,FDA, etc. but not all of them, only the ones we judge as important.
Many american friends of mine do not get this, they think US standards and rules should be followed by all, or we are just neanderthals if we do not take them 

Las week I had one forum expat visiting me and we were discussing about various subjects, one of them as you said Alan, was safety, some foreigners just don`t understand when they go, for instance, to the pyramids, how come there are not any hand rails, warning signs, arrows on the stairs, etc. In some countries, in my personal point of view, people is very spoiled, they should take more responsibility on their own acts and not expect to have the government taking care of them in every little detail of their lives. Not everywhere they can sue if they slip in a store....


----------



## PanamaJack

AlanMexicali said:


> Actually over the years I do understand a few casualities will possibly happen but many also will not and millions of pesos are saved by those constructing structures in very many places. I doubt ejidos and small towns need permits either in many states.
> 
> It´s similar to non FDA appoved medicines sold in Mexico .. a few might die but many more will benefit from them being available here. The limit liability here makes amny things more affordable comapred to NOB.
> 
> Same idea when you fall in a hole on a public place and break your leg .. it´s your fault you didn´t watch were your were walking not the people who dug the hole or left the cover off after someone stole it.


Alan you have been here in Mexico for years right? Your mind set is similar to mine. The FDA waits way too long to approve drugs, many times when they approve them they have been approved already in Europe. I have purchased antibiotics and other prescription medicines for 30 years here with out once using a prescription, sorry that is corruption since I skirted the law  Imagine if Mexican sued as often as NOB the lines would be out the door at the lawyers offices.


----------



## emilybcruz

AlanMexicali said:


> If you know a burrito gets you out of a jam like your husband knows is this really paying a $14 peso bribe? No it is a Paisano helping another Paisano out of a jam by the goodness of his heart and a sense of communion that the burrito really had no part in. It was a simple jestor of; Thanks friend.
> 
> Moralizing and focusing on pettiness here will get you underwater in Mexico.


So because I told my husband that I didn't think he should give his teacher a burrito in lieu of actually doing the assignment, I'm being petty? In our case, he is my husband and I have every right to inspire him to do the right thing, which is working hard and learning as much as possible. Not buying his way to the top. But honestly, even if he was just a friend, I would feel equally allowed to express my opinion. I think it's quite sad that you would consider that petty. 

Bringing your teacher a burrito because you get along well with your teacher and appreciate their teachings would be a "simple gesture." Bringing your teacher a burrito in exchange for a grade is simply a bribe. It's not a friendly gesture if you do something nice solely because you are expecting something in return. 

I suppose we're just going to have to agree to disagree because I will continue believing that I can help change the way people think so that they don't feel trapped by tradition. And I don't mean change the way Mexicans think. This isn't a Mexican or American thing for me, it's a human race thing. And so I will continue showing my husband that he doesn't have to be the victim of his upbringing, show my sister that just because she lives in the projects of an urban jungle in the US, it doesn't mean she needs to be on welfare forever, etc.

Like I said, clearly we will have to agree to disagree on this one.


----------



## TundraGreen

In the 1999 Îzmit earthquake in Turkey, the official death toll was about 17,000 and the unofficial estimates are perhaps three times that. Most of those deaths occurred in areas where there are building codes that require structures to be built to withstand earthquakes. However, there is widespread corruption and it is a common practice for building inspectors to accept bribes and ignore code violations that save money for the builders.


----------



## AlanMexicali

emilybcruz said:


> So because I told my husband that I didn't think he should give his teacher a burrito in lieu of actually doing the assignment, I'm being petty? In our case, he is my husband and I have every right to inspire him to do the right thing, which is working hard and learning as much as possible. Not buying his way to the top. But honestly, even if he was just a friend, I would feel equally allowed to express my opinion. I think it's quite sad that you would consider that petty.
> 
> Bringing your teacher a burrito because you get along well with your teacher and appreciate their teachings would be a "simple gesture." Bringing your teacher a burrito in exchange for a grade is simply a bribe. It's not a friendly gesture if you do something nice solely because you are expecting something in return.
> 
> I suppose we're just going to have to agree to disagree because I will continue believing that I can help change the way people think so that they don't feel trapped by tradition. And I don't mean change the way Mexicans think. This isn't a Mexican or American thing for me, it's a human race thing. And so I will continue showing my husband that he doesn't have to be the victim of his upbringing, show my sister that just because she lives in the projects of an urban jungle in the US, it doesn't mean she needs to be on welfare forever, etc.
> 
> Like I said, clearly we will have to agree to disagree on this one.


I put the last quote about being petty in there for the whole rant I have been doing for 2 days, not particuarly your post.

I hate to think everytime I see a movie or series where a student leaves an apple on their teacher´s desk they are bribing their teacher.

I have seen many things done in many places that equate to friends/associates who are able to help, break rules to help. In the long run sticking to the rules might indeed hurt someone where I feel the rules don´t need to be followed. 

In your husband´s case this did not hurt his overall performance and desire to succeed but might have cost him a failing grade and caused him much more time that could be better spend advancing forward.

What about the era of "hold nobody back" in public schools in the USA. Some graduated public school and were illiterate. They didn´t drop out and possibly got a job where being illiterate didn´t matter and suceeded in their own way etc. Was this policy considered an act of corruption?

Still, it takes a long time to get to the point "that when in Rome ..."

Accepting some things you do not understand fully brings you peace of mind. It might also help you to be more accepted by your peers that before might have found you a bit strange or alien to them. IMO


----------



## AlanMexicali

TundraGreen said:


> In the 1999 Îzmit earthquake in Turkey, the official death toll was about 17,000 and the unofficial estimates are perhaps three times that. Most of those deaths occurred in areas where there are building codes that require structures to be built to withstand earthquakes. However, there is widespread corruption and it is a common practice for building inspectors to accept bribes and ignore code violations that save money for the builders.


The 8.1 earthquake in Mexico City in 1985 had among many others 1400 buildings collapse that were newly constructed with money the World Bank had loaned Mexico [ 9 billion usd]. National Geographic did a mini series on the earthquake. These 1400 buildings were not constructed as the approved blueprints had specified. The most obvious fault was there was no rivited I-beams used, only lots of rebar. They collopsed killing thousands of occupants. They were schools, hospitals, clinics and gov´t office buildings. 5 people went to jail.


----------



## GARYJ65

emilybcruz said:


> So because I told my husband that I didn't think he should give his teacher a burrito in lieu of actually doing the assignment, I'm being petty? In our case, he is my husband and I have every right to inspire him to do the right thing, which is working hard and learning as much as possible. Not buying his way to the top. But honestly, even if he was just a friend, I would feel equally allowed to express my opinion. I think it's quite sad that you would consider that petty.
> 
> Bringing your teacher a burrito because you get along well with your teacher and appreciate their teachings would be a "simple gesture." Bringing your teacher a burrito in exchange for a grade is simply a bribe. It's not a friendly gesture if you do something nice solely because you are expecting something in return.
> 
> I suppose we're just going to have to agree to disagree because I will continue believing that I can help change the way people think so that they don't feel trapped by tradition. And I don't mean change the way Mexicans think. This isn't a Mexican or American thing for me, it's a human race thing. And so I will continue showing my husband that he doesn't have to be the victim of his upbringing, show my sister that just because she lives in the projects of an urban jungle in the US, it doesn't mean she needs to be on welfare forever, etc.
> 
> Like I said, clearly we will have to agree to disagree on this one.


Before I say anything; I agree with you on this case.
Having said that, who tells you, in other cases, who tells us, that we do have the truth, that we know better, that we know what is right and what is wrong?
You said that "you will continue showing your husband ...." as if he is a kindergarten kid?
As if you have to show people how it's done?
I'm sorry, I had to tell you this, bear with me, I was born in the 60's


----------



## GARYJ65

AlanMexicali said:


> The 8.1 earthquake in Mexico City in 1985 had among many others 1400 buildings collapse that were newly constructed with money the World Bank had loaned Mexico [ 9 billion usd]. National Geographic did a mini series on the earthquake. These 1400 buildings were not constructed as the approved blueprints had specified. The most obvious fault was there was no rivited I-beams used, only lots of rebar. They collopsed killing thousands of occupants. They were schools, hospitals, clinics and gov´t office buildings. 5 people went to jail.


That was a tragedy indeed, I felt the earthquake and saw what happened.
But that case makes me think, did the World Bank lent the money and thought that the constructions were going to be made according to the specs? are they so naive? You don't get what you expect, you get what you inspect!
Once again, it happens everywhere, and Mexico is not the exemption 
We could find and talk about this type of cases happening everywhere


----------



## emilybcruz

GARYJ65 said:


> Before I say anything; I agree with you on this case.
> Having said that, who tells you, in other cases, who tells us, that we do have the truth, that we know better, that we know what is right and what is wrong?
> You said that "you will continue showing your husband ...." as if he is a kindergarten kid?
> As if you have to show people how it's done?
> I'm sorry, I had to tell you this, bear with me, I was born in the 60's


I can't speak for other couples, but in my marriage I show/teach my husband some things, and he teaches me other things. 

In this instance, I had to show him that he could put in a little extra work, finish the homework assignment, and feel good about his grade, knowing that he deserved it. I had to show him not because he is like a "kindergarten kid," but because when he was young and in school, no one pushed him in that way. So now, as a 34 year old high school student, he still has the same defeatest attitude when it comes to school. And he is quick to look for an easy way out, such as the aforementioned burrito bribe. I think it is my duty as his wife to build his confidence and help him see that he is better than that, and that he can accomplish things that may seem difficult/impossible to him at first.

With that being said, he is generally the one teaching _me _things. Lessons of patience, understanding the Mexican culture better (why people do/think certain things,) what behavior is considered acceptable in different social situations, how to be less uptight, and so on and so forth. I have much more to learn about life than he does.


----------



## emilybcruz

And as for who is able to determine wrongs/rights... well... I'm not sure if you are married, but let's assume you are for this moment. If you saw your partner doing something you personally or spiritually found to immoral or "wrong" by your standards, wouldn't you tell him/her? Or do you feel that it's not your place?


----------



## lagoloo

Being born in the 60's can have given one just as many misconceptions as being born in the 40's, the 80's, or at any other time. The core beliefs of a person born in a poor family are likely to be very different from that of one born to the more privileged classes.

If someone has been taught to give up without trying hard enough, or to go the "bribe" route, it's very generous if someone else in his life helps him realize the possibilities in life. Kudos to the good woman in this man's life.


----------



## RVGRINGO

The Americans will not be satisfied until they have it all.
Tecumseh


----------



## GARYJ65

RVGRINGO said:


> The Americans will not be satisfied until they have it all.
> Tecumseh


I agree, and I would add: therefore they will never be satisfied


----------



## ojosazules11

I just spoke about this discussion thread with another Mexican friend, a 60 yr old man from DF. He disagrees that corruption is intrinsic to Mexican culture or is beneficial to society, actually he feels it has held Mexico back (and he has read plenty of history books). He does not feel it is generally condoned or accepted. When I asked if perhaps by being a _fuereña_ criticizing corruption/bribery I am somehow imposing a NOB standard or moralizing, his immediate response was "That's ridiculous - there's corruption north of the border, too!"


----------



## GARYJ65

ojosazules11 said:


> I just spoke about this discussion thread with another Mexican friend, a 60 yr old man from DF. He disagrees that corruption is intrinsic to Mexican culture or is beneficial to society, actually he feels it has held Mexico back (and he has read plenty of history books). He does not feel it is generally condoned or accepted. When I asked if perhaps by being a _fuereña_ criticizing corruption/bribery I am somehow imposing a NOB standard or moralizing, his immediate response was "That's ridiculous - there's corruption north of the border, too!"


That´s what I've been trying to say!!!


----------



## Isla Verde

Longford said:


> :focus:


Longford, thanks for the reminder. I'm going to move all the posts regarding books about Mexico to a new thread entitled (big surprise!) "Books about Mexico". It is in the Chatarrería section of the Mexico forum.


----------



## kooljoel2

*On Cheating...*

Schools or whatever organizations may be, bribery and cheating seems to be just a normal thing. I am seeing these happening in many institutions, not just the government.


----------



## Shoel

In Asia it's formal of cheating in exam


----------



## ashbreva

The primary issue with cheating is the unseen. It's everywhere.


----------



## boomerexpat

I would not have told them the name of the student but I think you did the morally right thing by standing up on the side of real education. 

Mexicans I speak with feel their higher ed system is a sham at the private universities. They think that most of the students who attend them have a father who built his business through corruption not hard work and savvy business sense. They feel the students see that and figure that is the way the world works.

I was just talking to a Mexican who teaches at the secondary level at a private school in DF. When he gives a bad grade to a 11 or 12 year old student, the first thing he usually hears is "how much for a good grade?" When he tells them he doesn't take bribes and they have to earn the grade, they usually counter with an offer of 500 to 800 pesos.

At my university, they don't need to do that. I teach at one of the top privates in my town. 100% of a teacher's job stability is attached to upward feedback from students. They grade the teacher and if he/she doesn't get a high enough grade - adios. Students are very aware of their power. As a result, students get almost straight A's and trust me these are not academic superstars. Students are infuriated if they don't get at least an A- even if they only did 1/5 of the work. 

Not for me. I won't play that game and let the uni know. So, I'm out of here after my first semester.


----------



## chicois8

Seems cheating is everywhere, the problem is when the cheaters get a job and know nothing about what they are doing, for instance:
I walk into the local Azteca branch the other day to purchase some Mexican Liberdad silver bullion 1 oz. coins, Azteca is about the only bank that sells them.. I asked a young lady behind a desk if they had any Liberdads to sell and looked up at me and said this bank does not take American dollars for Pesos..I said I wanted Mexican Liberdads for pesos and she again repeated herself...I then said Liberdads are Mexican pure silver( 99.999fine) coins that the Mexican had been making and selling since the early eighties and Azteca Bank is where they are sold to the public, she then asked the teller which states they can be bought at their branch in the next town...que lastima


----------



## TundraGreen

chicois8 said:


> Seems cheating is everywhere, the problem is when the cheaters get a job and know nothing about what they are doing, for instance:
> I walk into the local Azteca branch the other day to purchase some Mexican Liberdad silver bullion 1 oz. coins, Azteca is about the only bank that sells them.. I asked a young lady behind a desk if they had any Liberdads to sell and looked up at me and said this bank does not take American dollars for Pesos..I said I wanted Mexican Liberdads for pesos and she again repeated herself...I then said Liberdads are Mexican pure silver( 99.999fine) coins that the Mexican had been making and selling since the early eighties and Azteca Bank is where they are sold to the public, she then asked the teller which states they can be bought at their branch in the next town...que lastima


I wonder if part of that was not an accent problem. I have had clerks hear my accent and automatically assume I don't speak Spanish. They don't even listen to me, just assume they won't understand or I won't understand. And I don't think my accent is that bad. Most people have no trouble understanding me and many have told me I am easy to understand. But a few times, I have encountered sales people that don't even try to listen to me.


----------



## Aden'Soph

In Portugal we have Relvas qualifications - named after an ex-Minister (now back in Govt. again?) who apparently took his course administrator / professor to lunch.Miguel Relvas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Possibly an ex-PM Socrates also got his most recent quals this way. José Sócrates - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
It also seems there was an entire University set up (now closed?) to process the elites' qualifications - so a lot of well fed professors. 
What is interesting when reading these posts is the widely differing interpretations of the fundamental purpose of taking courses of learning. 
Is it primarily to learn new knowledge, new skills or competences .... or is it to 'get an advantage' with the qualification ? 
Particularly relevant with say the UK's NVQ / IQA competence qualifications that specifically have verifiers to check and re-check the assessors marking. But the verifiers too can presumably also be nobbled by a bent assessor on behalf of the learner - meaning that if the will is there - so is the way.


----------

