# Car Permit Question



## Scotty123 (Aug 20, 2013)

Hi all,

My wife & I have run into a bit of a complicated situation regarding our car permit and I would appreciate some advice. 

As back-story, we both entered Mexico on tourist permits. We brought our car along, and paid the required fees and deposits @ the boarder. After we got here about 14 months ago, my wife upgraded her tourist permit to be an FM3, and was working. She visited the local Aduana office, and had our car permit extended from 180 days to the date at which her FM3 expired (which was about a month ago). 

We mistakenly forgot to get her FM3 renewed, and along with it, we forgot to get the car permit extended. So, now both documents are expired. She is now legally in Mexico as a tourist, and has stopped working until we can get her FM3 (or equivalent) renewed. We have visited the local Aduana office with regards to getting our car permit renewed again, and they have said that as tourists that is only possible @ the boarder.

We are hoping to cross the boarder @ Laredo this weekend /w our car, acquire the FM3 from a consulate outside of Mexico, and then return with all documents up to date. What I would like to know is what to do about the current state of our car, and whether I should expect to get problems either leaving mexico with it, trying to enter again later, and if there is anything we can do to mitigate problems we may have.

Thanks a lot for any advice you can give!


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## Scotty123 (Aug 20, 2013)

Well, I've done more digging on this website, and elsewhere. I believe that the next step should be to apply for a RETORNO SEGURO from the local Aduana office. 

If anybody else has experience on these matters and can comment, advice is appreciated. I'll be heading over to the local Aduana office tomorrow to try to acquire this safe-return permit (will be taking a cab, not driving; i'm pretty nervous now). 

Assuming I get a Retorno Seguro, next we will drive up to Nuevo Laredo, & return the sticker / expired car permit. Hopefully that puts us in the clear for future attempts to get temp import on a vehicle.


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## cscscs007 (Jan 8, 2011)

How is she in Mexico legally as a tourist if you did not return to the border and exit the country, and then reenter? 

In my opinion going to the Aduana and asking for a Retorno Seguro is not going to work since your wife is no longer a valid Residente Temporal (no longer called an FM3). You are going to have to risk the return trip to the border, turn in your vehicle permit (you cannot get another vehicle permit until the one you have is cancelled out) and then cross into the US.

As for getting a Residente Temporal it is not as simple as going to the Mexican Consulate and asking for one. I know of no one getting this completed in one day. The process needs to be started at the beginning of the process, and you will have to go through the entire process as everyone else. There are no shortcuts that I know of, unless you are a citizen of Mexico, which would make her eligible for a vincular familiar. 

You should have to exit Mexico, and then reenter stopping to get a Tourist Permit, and as long as you have cancelled out the vehicle permit you currently have, you should be able to obtain another. You will of course, lose your deposit due to the fact you did not exit the country upon the date you were required to.

I see no easy way out of this for you, it is going to take some risk on your part as far as I can see.


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## Scotty123 (Aug 20, 2013)

wife recently left Mexico via airplane, and on leaving the country the immigration official noted that her FM3 was expired. She returned /w an FMM, and then learned about the rule changes that you are no longer allowed to "upgrade" once in Mexico. Her employer has already started the process to secure her resdente temporal. She is to visit a consulate outside of mexico in about 2 weeks time, at which point her application should be processed and approved in person.

WRT Car: 1) You are saying that somebody with a FMM is ineligible for a retorno seguro? 2) Do you have any sense of the likelihood of encountering a problem en-route to the boarder with an expired car permit?


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Scotty123 said:


> wife recently left Mexico via airplane, and on leaving the country the immigration official noted that her FM3 was expired. She returned /w an FMM, and then learned about the rule changes that you are no longer allowed to "upgrade" once in Mexico. Her employer has already started the process to secure her resdente temporal. She is to visit a consulate outside of mexico in about 2 weeks time, at which point her application should be processed and approved in person.
> 
> WRT Car: 1) You are saying that somebody with a FMM is ineligible for a retorno seguro? 2) Do you have any sense of the likelihood of encountering a problem en-route to the boarder with an expired car permit?


It appears ADUANA will give an expired FMM card holder a safe return permit for free in Mexico. I think the problem is your are illegally in Mexico and if any authorities question you you will have a problem, possibly. 

I don´t know if ADUANA would notify INM that you have overstayed your 180 days or not. 

Once in the Free Zone near the border I would presume if you were stopped it would be a bad idea to show them your expired FMM as this is a free zone.

I have read many Expats have turned in expired TIPs on the border lately, some expired years ago, and the ADUANA agents ask no questions and do not asked to see a safe return letter. You simply have lost your deposit.

Turning in your expired FMM tourist card would be likely the same as turning in your TIP but before a few had to pay a fine for being late with their FMM tourist cards and some turned them in with the INM officer doing nothing. Others did not turn them in at all. It all depends if they have upgraded their INM database the last year or so. Before they did not keep good records of FMMs, but some have posted this year it is different. Rumor or Not? I don´t know.


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## Scotty123 (Aug 20, 2013)

thx for the reply. just to clarify, nobody is in mexico illegally. We both are in possession of valid, non-expired, FMMs. The issue is that our vehicle permit was tied to her FM3, which expired.


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## cscscs007 (Jan 8, 2011)

I have never seen anyone try to get a retorno seguro as an FMM holder. This is because when one gets their FMM the vehicle permit will have the same expiration so both the FMM holder and the vehicle must leave the country on or before the date of expiration.
I do not see any harm in asking for one, they can only say no. Here is the procedure from what I could find to get a retorno seguro:


Steps for obtaining safe return

The importer must file a free writing that meets the requirements of Articles 18 and 18-A of the Fiscal Code, which prompted the safe return of the vehicle from abroad, indicating the brand, model and serial number of the same , the writing should be submitted in triplicate and annexed the following documents:
Statement under oath that the vehicle is owned and is not subject to any criminal, civil or administrative proceeding in customs matters (PAMA)

Deed

Immigration form

Official identification

Permit temporary importation


In order to keep this informative for others, and accurate, please post the results you find out so others with the same situation will have the answer available.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Scotty123 said:


> thx for the reply. just to clarify, nobody is in mexico illegally. We both are in possession of valid, non-expired, FMMs. The issue is that our vehicle permit was tied to her FM3, which expired.


OK. I got confused with another poster asking similar questions. Sorry. 

It appears the TIP expired the moment your wife got a FM3 lucritiva. In this case it is exactly what a safe return document is for. Hopefully you have the original TIP paperwork to show them and a copy of the original FM3 and that passport you showed them back then. 

You should actually get one to be on the safe side as Federal Police are recently being trained in INM visas and ADUANA TIP rules and have the authority to impound "chocolates" and call in ADUANA after impounding them.


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## cscscs007 (Jan 8, 2011)

OK, let me see if I understand your situation correctly. Your wife has an FM3 and a TIP which are now both expired. Currently you both have an FMM which is valid, but the vehicle still is in Mexico under an expired FM3. Your wife is currently in the process of clearing up her status and the FMM allows her to stay for the time being until she can allow for the time to process her paperwork, and then travel out of the country to pick up her paperwork which will allow her to stay longer in Mexico, and work.

Wow, I can see some time being wasted trying to explain your situation to the officials. I am sure this has happened before, but those people who you need to talk to seem to enjoy making your life stressful just to clear this up. 

This is what I would do:

Take your passport, TIP (expired), FM3 (or copy if you do not have the original), your current FMM (valid), and your registration/title to your vehicle. Very important, bring copies of all these documents (I would bring at least 3 copies of everything) with you. 

You also need to type a letter (would be neater than handwriting) stating the reason why you need a retorno seguro, the year, make, model, and VIN number of your vehicle. I would include the TIP number, and state that this is for the TIP and the sticker (I ran into problems getting another TIP to replace one which was lost, and I had to return to the police station in Nuevo Laredo just to have the officer retype the letter and add the words "and sticker" to the document, yes, it was refused because the letter only made reference to a lost or stolen vehicle permit). Finally, swear under oath that your are in fact the owner of the vehicle, and that the vehicle is not subject to any criminal, civil, or administrative matters in regards to Proceso Administrativo en Materia Aduanera (PAMA). 

Bring copies of everything with you to save you the hassle of being turned away because you don't have the required copies.

Hopefully, this will enable you to get the retorno seguro giving you enough time to drive to the border, turn in your TIP, lose your deposit, avoid any fines and possible impoundment of your vehicle, and get another TIP. 

You may have to cancel the FMM currently in your possession in order to get another FMM which would be tied to the TIP and good for enough time to clear up her paperwork in relation to the FM3. I am not sure on this part, but I would be prepared for this just in case (more copies of passport, vehicle registration and/or title, and driver's license). 

I have found when it comes to Mexico and it's government system, nothing is simple or easy. Always prepare for the unknown, because the first time you don't, it will come back to haunt you.

If possible, plan your trip north at the same time as your wife's appointment. You will be able to exit the country, get her paperwork, and then return to the border, get another FMM and TIP, and finish your trip back. Within 30 days (I believe this is correct) take your documents and copies (more copies) to the office where your wife will obtain her resident documents and they will then cancel her FMM, etc. and you will finally be finished. 

This is a tough lesson to learn, I am sure the memory will last a very long time. Best of luck to you.

Best of luck.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

A couple of points:
There is no such thing as an FM3 any more. It is now a Residente Temporal Visa in card form.
Once you step out of Mexico, the Tourist Permit (FMM), and any Importada Temporal, become void.

The titled owner of the vehicle must apply at a Mexican Consulate for a residence visa approval, which will be completed in Mexico and take a couple of months to process; maybe more.

Be carefull: Permanent residents or those working in Mexico may not import a vehicle or drive a foreign plated vehicle other than one imported legally by a spouse. The consulates often do not know much of these details. Withe the new rules, you are much better off to have a vehicle purchased in Mexico.


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## Scotty123 (Aug 20, 2013)

csc: you've about summed up the situation correctly. A lesson learned about the need to be attentive & not miss important dates. 

RVG: My wife's employer has gone through a similar process of obtaining work permission for foreign employees recently. They have found the entire process to take no more than about a month, which started 2 weeks ago. I don't know the details, but essentially what happens is this:
1. Employer applies for work permit (presumably a resident temporal visa, but this isn't my area so I'm not sure of the details)
2. Employee visits designated consulate. Normally this would be the consulate assigned to your home address (which for us would be Toronto, since our permanent address is in Ontario not too far away). In this case, since we do not want to return to Canada for a visa, they are trying to sort out getting it through a different consulate, such as one in Texas, or Denver (since my wife cant work at the moment, what better way to kill some time than a road trip thru the mountains). 
In any case, the issue of re-obtaining permission to work (either via FM3, residente temporal, or otherwise) goes beyond the scope of what I am asking for help with in this thread. It's certainly a useful topic to discus, but maybe better in a new thread to keep this one clean & about what to do with an illegal car in mexico?

Anyway,for all reading this, and as reference for the next time somebody has a simlar situation, here's what happened today:
1. We went to aduana office. They sent us to the SAT office across town. 
2. @ the SAT office, we obtained the forms required, filled those out, and then proceeded to talk to a lady @ the oficina juridico. After a lot of going in circles and back and forth between different burrows in true Mexican fashion and several hours, we have submitted our request for a retorno seguro (henceforth called RS). 
3. I will be the driver of the car, but it is registered in my wifes name, and the original permit was filled in her name. As such, we required we required two copies of the following docuemnts:
a) Her Passport
b) My Passport
c) Vehicle ownership (front & back)
d) my license (front & back)
e) expired TIP (the original obtained @ boarder 18 months ago /w FMM, not the one obtained afterwards here in Queretaro /w FM3)
e) The 2 forms obtained @ sat office. 
i) declaration that our car is not supposed to be impounded or in trouble or whatever
ii) official request for RS
3. The lady has informed us that typically obtaining the RS takes several days. We stressed that we are hoping to depart for the boarder this week, and so she has said to call back tomorrow @ 2 pm to find out when our RS will be ready. 
4. We are hoping to return to the SAT office tomorrow afternoon to get our RS, but there may be new complications that we run into tomorrow. 

And, as an aside, at no time did anybody ask to see our FMM, inquire why the car permit was expired, or what our status in Mexico is at all. We had copies of our valid FMMs ready, but these were completely unneeded. As such, I suspect that if your FMM is expired, then you can still obtain a RS.


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## cscscs007 (Jan 8, 2011)

I would consider making copies of your marriage license, in order to show your family relationship to her. 

Other than that, it seems you enjoyed a typical day interacting with the system just as so many others before you.

Thanks for the update, and be sure to post any changes that pop up.


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## Scotty123 (Aug 20, 2013)

cscscs007 said:


> I would consider making copies of your marriage license, in order to show your family relationship to her.
> 
> Other than that, it seems you enjoyed a typical day interacting with the system just as so many others before you.
> 
> Thanks for the update, and be sure to post any changes that pop up.


Good call about marriage license. Will have that ready for tomorrow just in case they need it. I think it would have come up already if they did, but you never know.

We aren't new to the bureaucratic delights of living in Mexico and weren't surprised with the outcome today. Having traveled through India for a few months, I can assure you that what they have here is wayyy more efficient.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

The marriage license is to show if you are stopped.
Note that the RS will be good for only 5 days from the day issued, so be ready to leave accordingly.


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## Scotty123 (Aug 20, 2013)

FYI all, we got the RS this afternoon without further complication, and are off to the border tomorrow.

cheers


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## cscscs007 (Jan 8, 2011)

Good luck to you. Hopefully the trip goes well.


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