# Will a 12 month lease starting now make me a tax resident in PT for 2020?



## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

I have been trying to find a 6 month or shorter lease without much luck. It is pretty easy to find a 12 month lease, however it is already late in the year and I would prefer not to become a tax resident in Portugal for 2020. I really need the extra year to learn the language, etc and make sure I will be staying. I will certainly not be in Portugal 183 days this year, but if I sign a lease starting September 1st through August of next year would that make me a tax resident here for 2020? I am reading conflicting information online, I know buying a house that would be used as my permanent residence late in the year would make me at least a tax resident for part of the year, but it is unclear if signing a year lease rental agreement would do the same. I am not concerned about 2021, only about the remainder of this year. Also I am not from the UK so Brexit has nothing to do with my situation. I am retired and I have no income sources in Portugal. Thank you.


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## RichardHenshall (Jul 26, 2009)

Once you meet the conditions to be considered tax-resident you will be deemed to have begun your tax residency on the first date that contributed to meeting the conditions.

https://info.portaldasfinancas.gov....codigos_tributarios/cirs_rep/Pages/irs16.aspx

It's not so much about the start or duration of the lease, more about when you begin to live in Portugal.


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## Strontium (Sep 16, 2015)

^^ What he says, I bought and owned a house in Portugal for years but was not resident nor a tax resident, you can do the same if you rent,


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

Strontium said:


> ^^ What he says, I bought and owned a house in Portugal for years but was not resident nor a tax resident, you can do the same if you rent,


I am confused.  A 6 month lease makes sense as it is only 3 months in a tax year, but it is proving to be quite difficult to find. If it is a 1 year lease (and occupying the residence) then it would be well over 183 days next year (2021) so that would mean a Portugal tax residency for 2021. Then going backwards if it starts in September of this year then tax residency would start in September of this year. What would I have to do to avoid becoming a tax resident in 2020, break up the year by renting something and moving to Spain for a couple months in early 2021 or something?

I believe I qualify for NHR status, however I would prefer to wait to apply until March of 2022 as that will give me time to learn the language, etc. I don't want to apply this March for NHR status. All my income is US sourced and taxed in the US.


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## RichardHenshall (Jul 26, 2009)

If you don't want to become resident in 2020, don't move to Portugal in 2020!


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

RichardHenshall said:


> If you don't want to become resident in 2020, don't move to Portugal in 2020!


Tell that to the virus! I would move to Spain and stay there until January but who knows if the border will be open in January. I would rather stay here temporarily and then leave early next year. I guess the 1 year lease is not going to be possible though, I probably need to stick with a short lease and then leave for a while.


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## RichardHenshall (Jul 26, 2009)

I've now skimmed some of your other posts and if I've understood correctly you are already in Portugal but you may not have registered your residency in Portugal as an EU national (and may not have needed to). I'd earlier assumed that you were still in the US.

However the days you have already spent in Portugal potentially all contribute to the cumulative threshold of 183 days in _any _365 that _could _define you as tax-resident (counting back to the first of the 183 days, once you've hit that in total.

If, for instance, you've been in Portugal for 90 days continuously, you would need to leave for just over 6 months before returning to live again so that the earliest days no longer count and you avoid the risk of being considered tax-resident from some date in 2020.

However, I've also read that the tax authorities will normally treat the start of tax-residency as the date when the address associated with your NIF is changed to a Portuguese address from a foreign one, so you _may _get away with it if you can legitimately defer that until 2021!


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

RichardHenshall said:


> I've now skimmed some of your other posts and if I've understood correctly you are already in Portugal but you may not have registered your residency in Portugal as an EU national (and may not have needed to). I'd earlier assumed that you were still in the US.
> 
> However the days you have already spent in Portugal potentially all contribute to the cumulative threshold of 183 days in _any _365 that _could _define you as tax-resident (counting back to the first of the 183 days, once you've hit that in total.
> 
> ...



I have been staying mostly in Spain since the border opened in July, half the time we sleep in the car. I spent a total of 12 nights in Portugal in hotel rooms over the past 6 weeks. My residential address is in the US and I am a tax resident there for life (US taxes on citizenship not residence). I was not permitted to use my US address to apply for an NIF (even though I am an Italian national) and I was forced to hire an attorney here to be responsible for my NIF mailing address. I could probably keep doing hotel rooms through the end of the year but I need to buy a small motorcycle to get around, I cannot rent a car until January. I should have bought one in Italy and then paid the tax to transfer it here, but Covid stopped that plan too. I was lucky to get out of Italy with my dog when I did. 

I just wanted to rent short term here (like an extended vacation rental), then if I decide to live here I can buy a house after January and become a tax resident in 2021. The provision about residency starting late in the year is unique here, neither Italy nor France nor Spain has anything like that - everywhere else they have the 183 day rule.

This should not have even happened. I was supposed to arrive in Feb/March and I had a short term rental reserved through the end of June to give me time to look for a house to buy. Then I would have had 9 months to get through the bureaucracy and language barriers to get NHR status after I bought a house and decided if I wanted to stay.


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

RichardHenshall said:


> I've now skimmed some of your other posts and if I've understood correctly you are already in Portugal but you may not have registered your residency in Portugal as an EU national (and may not have needed to). I'd earlier assumed that you were still in the US.
> 
> However the days you have already spent in Portugal potentially all contribute to the cumulative threshold of 183 days in _any _365 that _could _define you as tax-resident (counting back to the first of the 183 days, once you've hit that in total.
> 
> ...


I am curious, if I stay in Portugal for less than 90 days continuously how long would I need to leave for before I can return? Example: I find a 1 year lease starting September 1st, then I stay in Portugal on holiday in Sept and Oct, and then I return to the USA for a couple of months and then return here in early January? Or would I need to leave for 90+ days before I return?


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## MikeItMo (Mar 3, 2018)

Re. your need for a short-term rental. I'm in a similar situation in that I want a rental less than a year while I look at properties. 
I found a holiday apartment for 5.5mths, starting in September (possibilty to extend by one or two) till end of February, at off-season rate. High-season rate is four times what I'll be paying. Can't you find something similar?


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

MikeItMo said:


> Re. your need for a short-term rental. I'm in a similar situation in that I want a rental less than a year while I look at properties.
> I found a holiday apartment for 5.5mths, starting in September (possibilty to extend by one or two) till end of February, at off-season rate. High-season rate is four times what I'll be paying. Can't you find something similar?


I am trying but it is difficult here. I am not looking in the south, I am looking way up in the north on the border with Spain. There are a lot more summer rentals down south, so there are also a lot more empty holiday homes there in the winter. I also have a dog, and I need a secure place to park a motorcycle. I may have a lead on a 4 month rental though and I also found a nice yearly rental which is very inexpensive but the realtor is extremely slow to get back to me. A year would be great, I can stay for 2 - 3 months then go back to the USA for 2 - 3 months (if it hasn't turned into something resembling a John Carpenter movie after the election). It seems to be picking up a little now that September is approaching, hopefully I will find something soon. Good luck with your stay and property search. And do your homework in advance, they do not disclose comparative sales data here. I have been looking at real estate websites to see what is pending to help but nothing can replace sales prices along with a listing description and photos.


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## RichardHenshall (Jul 26, 2009)

John and Cecil said:


> I am curious, if I stay in Portugal for less than 90 days continuously how long would I need to leave for before I can return? Example: I find a 1 year lease starting September 1st, then I stay in Portugal on holiday in Sept and Oct, and then I return to the USA for a couple of months and then return here in early January? Or would I need to leave for 90+ days before I return?


It's possible we are both confusing two different issues.

An EU national is obliged to register his residency in Portugal after a continuous stay of 3 months (90 days). Where you live during that stay isn't really important (hotel/rental/car etc). If you leave, the clock restarts.

BUT

For tax-residency the days are counted cumulatively, so from the first day in Portugal you have 181 more days you can spend in total in the next 365 without becoming tax-resident by virtue of spending the majority of your time in Portugal. If you do pass the threshold your tax-residency may be counted back to day 1.

For instance, consider if you spent June, July & August 2020 in Portugal and then left (without registering residency) until 1 January 2021 when you return permanently. In early April 2021 you will be obliged to register your residency because of 3 months continuous presence but if you look back you will also have been in Portugal for more than 183 days in the past 365, so _may _be considered tax-resident since June 2020.


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

RichardHenshall said:


> It's possible we are both confusing two different issues.
> 
> An EU national is obliged to register his residency in Portugal after a continuous stay of 3 months (90 days). Where you live during that stay isn't really important (hotel/rental/car etc). If you leave, the clock restarts.
> 
> ...


I do not think they will consider living in Spain (hotel/car/etc) for tax residency for Portugal. I spend a few days staying in Portugal and then about a week staying in Spain. I spent less than 2 weeks staying in Portugal since the border opened in July. How are they going to prove that someone slept in their car here anyway?  I don't need to pay taxes here anyway for 10 years, and even if I did it would not be enough to justify spying on me sleeping in my car  Actually the way interest rates have collapsed recently (at least in the US) income taxes may not be a concern for very long.

I know about the 90 days continuous residency and then I must register, however that most likely won't happen this year. I stayed in Portugal 3 nights in a row, that is the longest I have stayed continuously and then I left and stayed in Spain for a week.

Thank you for explaining the 183 out of previous 365, I did not understand that they did that here. Everywhere else it is 183 days in a calendar year, not a continuously moving period of 365 days that can start on any given day.  This rule seems absolutely insane, let me see if I understand this correctly. 

Example: Let's say someone comes to Portugal for a week vacation in early July 2020. Now on January 1 2021 this theoretical person decides to move to Portugal and become a resident. At the end of June 2021 this theoretical person will have more than 183 days during the past 365 days (because of the week vacation that took place almost 6 months before that person moved to Portugal). So now that person will be required to pay income taxes in Portugal for 2020, even though that person lived in another country the entire year and pays taxes there. This seems INSANE.

Even more bizarre would be to consider that the theoretical person above only stayed in Portugal 1 night in late July 2020. Eventually there will be a day where he passes the threshold and he will be a tax resident for a year where he spent only 1 night in Portugal and then left for 5 1/2 months...


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## RichardHenshall (Jul 26, 2009)

John and Cecil said:


> ...Example: Let's say someone comes to Portugal for a week vacation in early July 2020. Now on January 1 2021 this theoretical person decides to move to Portugal and become a resident. At the end of June 2021 this theoretical person will have more than 183 days during the past 365 days (because of the week vacation that took place almost 6 months before that person moved to Portugal). So now that person will be required to pay income taxes in Portugal for 2020, even though that person lived in another country the entire year and pays taxes there. This seems INSANE.


In theory that _may _be the case but in reality it's more likely that the July 2020 days would be overlooked.

What I'm trying to say is that any days spent in Portugal in the past 365 days _could _count. Bear in mind that these rules are there to try to trap those who live in Portugal but try to pretend they don't - they're not really aimed at incoming immigrants who are trying to be compliant. Your earlier posts suggested that you may already have spent months in Portugal in 2020 but maybe I've misread/misunderstood.


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

RichardHenshall said:


> In theory that _may _be the case but in reality it's more likely that the July 2020 days would be overlooked.
> 
> What I'm trying to say is that any days spent in Portugal in the past 365 days _could _count. Bear in mind that these rules are there to try to trap those who live in Portugal but try to pretend they don't - they're not really aimed at incoming immigrants who are trying to be compliant. Your earlier posts suggested that you may already have spent months in Portugal in 2020 but maybe I've misread/misunderstood.


I do not believe the above situation can be correct. The finacas website states this:

_1 - People who reside in Portuguese territory are those who, in the year to which their income relates:

a) There have been more than 183 days, consecutive or interpolated, in any 12-month period beginning or ending in the year in question;

b) Having stayed for a shorter period of time, there, on any given day of the period referred to in the preceding paragraph, have housing under conditions that suggest that they currently intend to maintain and occupy it as a habitual residence;_

The fact that they added (b) makes it appear that they intend (a) to mean 183 days in a calendar year (like all the other nearby EU countries). (b) specifically excludes hotels and short term rentals (and cars  ) because none of which shows intent to live somewhere as a primary residence. My guess is that it is poorly worded but they tax on 183 days presence in a calendar year and not some randomly moving 365 day period. Taxes are yearly and I have never witnessed another country to do something like this. I know France, Italy, and Spain all have 182/183 day periods in calendar years.

I arrived in the Spain/Portugal region in July (when the borders opened). I am mostly staying in Spain but occasionally I stay in Portugal. I have never stayed anywhere that would show intent to be a resident. Everywhere I stay shows intent to be a tourist. In fact I do not intend to live in Portugal unless I purchase a house, if I cannot find a home to buy then I will live someplace else.


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

I found this somewhere else:

_Portugal - Information on residency for tax purposes

Section I – Criteria for Individuals to be considered a tax resident

As a general rule, an individual is qualified as a resident of Portugal if:
- he is present in Portugal for more than 183 days, consecutive or otherwise, in any 12-month period starting or ending in the *calendar year* concerned; or
- he is in Portugal for a shorter period, but he has on any day during the period mentioned in the previous subparagraph, an home under circumstances which imply his intention to keep and occupy such abode as his permanent residence;
- he is, on 31 December of any year, a crew member of a ship or aircraft operated by a resident entity;
- he is performing public functions or commissions for the Portuguese state.
Moreover, an individual is qualified as a resident of Portugal if he is a Portuguese 
national who moves his residence for tax purposes to a country, territory or region subject to a clearly more favourable tax regime included in a list approved by Ministerial Order of the member of Government responsible for the tax area, unless he proves that the change is for a valid reason, such as being seconded by his employer for performing a temporary activity.
_

Here they are claiming "calendar" year, although it is still poorly worded. The 183 day period referenced by Financas must be within a calendar year, otherwise it will not be synchronized with all the other taxing jurisdictions. It must synchronize with the other tax jurisdictions because tax is owed to one or the other. To do anything else would be incredibly stupid and insane and cause many, many problems. This is why every country on the planet (as far as I know) uses January 1 - December 31 as a tax year. All the other EU countries taxes residents on the number of days spent in the country in a calendar year, not by some imaginary year that can start or end on any given day in the year.

So, assuming this is correct one must be a resident for 183 days in a calendar year OR one must occupy a residence for a shorter amount of time but with the intent to make it (or use it) as a primary residence. This makes much more sense.

As for sleeping in a car, society considers this to mean that you are homeless (and thus you cannot have intent to create a permanent residence). Believe me when I tell you that no one wants to live in their car as a primary residence, and especially when you have a dog that snores


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## RichardHenshall (Jul 26, 2009)

If you've only been in Portugal for a few days it's unlikely to matter, however I very much doubt that living in a hotel provides non-resident status!


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## RichardHenshall (Jul 26, 2009)

John and Cecil said:


> ... It must synchronize with the other tax jurisdictions because tax is owed to one or the other. To do anything else would be incredibly stupid and insane and cause many, many problems. This is why every country on the planet (as far as I know) uses January 1 - December 31 as a tax year. ...


The UK tax year runs from 6 April to 5 April.


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

RichardHenshall said:


> If you've only been in Portugal for a few days it's unlikely to matter, however I very much doubt that living in a hotel provides non-resident status!


Staying in a hotel room for 2 nights and then leaving for a week (and not staying anywhere else in Portugal) seems like someone trying to become a primary resident? Your argument does not seem well grounded or merited. The law states intent to use as a primary residence. Now if you stay in a hotel room for 6 months straight then perhaps, but otherwise not. Especially for someone who has a residence and pays taxes in another country. It is ok though, you just don't know but I appreciate the effort. Thank you.

Actually it would probably matter more on the reservation. If you do not reserve the room for a long enough period of time then there is no evidence of intent. Even if you stay longer as long as you reserve the room weekly or monthly there is no intent to stay past the end of the reservation. Intent is an important word, without intent the law falls back to 183 days out of a year or one of the other clauses.


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

RichardHenshall said:


> The UK tax year runs from 6 April to 5 April.


Personal income taxes are April to April in the UK? That is interesting, I know corporate taxes can start after the 1st quarter but I never heard of personal income taxes starting in April. There is always an exception, but I notice that it starts and ends on a specific date and not on any random day in the year that takes into consideration your vacation schedule.


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

RichardHenshall said:


> *


Well it is insane but you are apparently correct, a tax firm is claiming that the 183 days is for any 12 month period and not for a calendar year. This firm claims it used to be for a calendar year but the law was changed in 2015.

_The 183-Day Rule

If you spend more than 183 days in Portugal in a 12 month period, the Portuguese tax authorities (Finanças) will treat you as being resident for tax purposes. Prior to 2015 the period was a tax year (1st January to 31st December) but this has now changed to be any 12 month period. This is a cumulative rule; the 183 days do not have to be consecutive._

Warning! Anyone considering moving to Portugal in the future are advised to not take any vacations in Portugal within 6 months of moving there!


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

This is just great, now that I almost found a short term rental I think we are going to need to start looking in France instead. Staying here in a hotel room for just 1 night in July means you have to leave the country for 6 months before you can return here. Something is seriously wrong with Portugal Financas


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## RichardHenshall (Jul 26, 2009)

I think you may be over-reacting. I made my comments earlier in the thread because I thought that you had already spent a few months in Portugal in the Spring and were intending to spend a few more months in Portugal in the Autumn, while trying to prepare for residency beginning in 2021. Those would be a very different set of circumstances.


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

RichardHenshall said:


> I think you may be over-reacting. I made my comments earlier in the thread because I thought that you had already spent a few months in Portugal in the Spring and were intending to spend a few more months in Portugal in the Autumn, while trying to prepare for residency beginning in 2021. Those would be a very different set of circumstances.


That is what the law states though, 183 days in any 12 month period.  It is the most insane rule I have ever seen. And since the deadline to file for NHR status is March 2021, when they inform me that they are screwing me because of my hotel stays it will be in July 2021 and well past the NHR deadline. I have been screwed already by the bureaucracy here, I am a EU citizen but I was denied an NIF number and forced to hire attorney. I cannot take a chance, there is no knowing what they will do.

Staying here just for a few days in mid August means I cannot move here until after mid February and not January 1, and if I stay in Portugal again then the date will be even later. I won't be able to move here until 6 months after my last hotel stay.


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## RichardHenshall (Jul 26, 2009)

John and Cecil said:


> ... And since the deadline to file for NHR status is March 2021, when they inform me that they are screwing me because of my hotel stays it will be in July 2021 and well past the NHR deadline. ...


The NHR application deadline is 31 March of the year following the year in which you become resident. 31 March 2021 is the deadline if you become resident in 2020. If however you mean March 2022 (following residency in 2021) and you're rejected by virtue of deemed residency in 2020, I understand your concern.


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

RichardHenshall said:


> The NHR application deadline is 31 March of the year following the year in which you become resident. 31 March 2021 is the deadline if you become resident in 2020. If however you mean March 2022 (following residency in 2021) and you're rejected by virtue of deemed residency in 2020, I understand your concern.


Yes that is exactly my concern. I am not ready to apply for NHR status in March 2021 because I do not speak Portuguese. No one in the Financas office spoke English and we were communicating with hand gestures. They refused to accept my short term lease document from Italy for my NIF and they would not use my USA address, so I was denied. I had to hire an attorney to vouch for me to get an NIF. I have a unique situation as I am a EU national but never lived in the EU. However the EU demands I be allowed to move to any country but Portugal denied me an NIF, and thus denied me the right to live here. Now I have to have my tax documents sent to a stranger because they won't accept my US mailing address. These are exactly the same people who I will have to deal with regarding my NHR status 

So if I start living in Portugal in 2021 and apply for NHR status in 2022 all they need to do is say "you have 183 days between August 2020 and August 2021, and thus you are deemed a tax resident in 2020. Also it will happen after August 2021 and thus be too late to apply for NHR status for 2020, and since I was deemed a resident in 2020 I now do not qualify for NHR status in 2021, nor in the future.

I am not sure what they are trying to do, perhaps it is a trap to catch people staying just under the 183 day rule but there is a serious flaw in their approach. People that are moving and intend to become a tax resident in the beginning of the year cannot visit the country for even 1 single day for the last 6 months of the previous year. Otherwise the law states tax residency can start on the day they first visited the country. Just one single day visit in July can set off that 183 in any 365 day period and make someone a tax resident even though they did not return to Portugal until January of the following year. And the 183 day rule does not have a exclusion for the stay not having "intent" to be a resident, once you hit 183 days regardless of intent you are deemed a tax resident.

They need to update their tax code to clarify that people intending to become a tax resident in a certain year will not be deemed a resident in the previous year because of visits necessary to see the country and decide if they actually want to live there, and also to try to find suitable housing. How can you buy a house or find an apartment starting in January if you are not allowed inside the country after July 1 of the previous year? This is INSANE. I am having second thoughts about moving here, something is seriously wrong here. It appears that the government is inept or they are intentionally creating loopholes allowing anyone in government to do just about anything they want. I am very thankful you brought this to my attention. I could have been seriously screwed, I never would have imagined you are not permitted to visit a country to try to find an apartment so you can become a resident.


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## hktoportugal (Feb 25, 2019)

Portugal has very straightforward rules... If you are not an EU resident you need to have fiscal representation. I am a Dutch national but as I was living in Hong Kong at the time I handled my preparation to Portugal through a fiscal representation office (EuroFinesco). Seamless process and quickly handled. 

I wouldn't worry about the 183 days, I was travelling a lot after first moving here and forgot to register myself at the local city office within the first three months after I moved. Only after I registered at the local city office and went to the financas office did my status change from Non resident to Resident, with a start date equal to my visit to the financas office. It did not change automatically. 

And as we bought property here before we moved I was In Portugal several times in the period before moving here and none of that gets accounted for. They absolutely don't care or track that you visited Portugal for a few days or a week and/or use that to determine tax residency. My wife, who is a non EU citizen and has therefore a SEF residence card as a spouse of an EU citizen, is even still registered at Financas as a non tax resident with an address outside Portugal (simply because we haven't had the opportunity yet thanks to Covid to physically go to Financas and change her tax status). So even the fact that she got a residence card from SEF didn't change her status at Financas. Both of us have NHR status which EuroFinesco handled as well.


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

hktoportugal said:


> Portugal has very straightforward rules... If you are not an EU resident you need to have fiscal representation. I am a Dutch national but as I was living in Hong Kong at the time I handled my preparation to Portugal through a fiscal representation office (EuroFinesco). Seamless process and quickly handled.
> 
> I wouldn't worry about the 183 days, I was travelling a lot after first moving here and forgot to register myself at the local city office within the first three months after I moved. Only after I registered at the local city office and went to the financas office did my status change from Non resident to Resident, with a start date equal to my visit to the financas office. It did not change automatically.
> 
> And as we bought property here before we moved I was In Portugal several times in the period before moving here and none of that gets accounted for. They absolutely don't care or track that you visited Portugal for a few days or a week and/or use that to determine tax residency. My wife, who is a non EU citizen and has therefore a SEF residence card as a spouse of an EU citizen, is even still registered at Financas as a non tax resident with an address outside Portugal (simply because we haven't had the opportunity yet thanks to Covid to physically go to Financas and change her tax status). So even the fact that she got a residence card from SEF didn't change her status at Financas. Both of us have NHR status which EuroFinesco handled as well.


Thanks. It is a really crazy law though. I guess the best thing to do is to apply for NHR status well before I reach 183 days, this way if they refuse I can evacuate the country before actually becoming a tax resident. We are considering a September to December temporary rental, this way I can buy a motorcycle and maybe find a house. Otherwise it is almost impossible to buy a vehicle here, the only other ways I know are to buy one for export in Italy or Germany with 1 year temporary registration. Cecil is going to be really upset if we don't get a motorcycle  If we can work this all ut though we may just leave Portugal in early 2021 for 6 months and stay in Spain, France, and Italy to be safe. It will be much easier getting around on a small motorcycle.

I wish I had known about Eurofinesco before my NIF appointment. My only option was to hire the attorney next door to them. I can see a problem though, if you ever move out of Europe how do you update your mailing address with them. It sounds like they refuse to send mail out of the EU, but people move out of the EU?


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## RichardHenshall (Jul 26, 2009)

John and Cecil said:


> Thanks. It is a really crazy law though. I guess the best thing to do is to apply for NHR status well before I reach 183 days, this way if they refuse I can evacuate the country before actually becoming a tax resident. We are considering a September to December temporary rental, this way I can buy a motorcycle and maybe find a house. Otherwise it is almost impossible to buy a vehicle here, the only other ways I know are to buy one for export in Italy or Germany with 1 year temporary registration. Cecil is going to be really upset if we don't get a motorcycle  If we can work this all ut though we may just leave Portugal in early 2021 for 6 months and stay in Spain, France, and Italy to be safe. It will be much easier getting around on a small motorcycle.
> 
> I wish I had known about Eurofinesco before my NIF appointment. My only option was to hire the attorney next door to them. I can see a problem though, if you ever move out of Europe how do you update your mailing address with them. It sounds like they refuse to send mail out of the EU, but people move out of the EU?


A key step for you, regardless of your future plans/outcomes, is to register for online access to your tax account at https://www.acesso.gov.pt/unauthed/novoUtilizadorForm? which will result in a password being posted to your fiscal rep. Once you get hold of it you can arrange for electronic communications to go direct to you. You can only remove your fiscal rep in person, though a new rep may be able to take over without your personal presence.

With regard to NHR, you *must *be recorded as a Portuguese resident (as described by hktoportugal) *before *you can apply. The application *must *be done online through the portal.


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

RichardHenshall said:


> A key step for you, regardless of your future plans/outcomes, is to register for online access to your tax account at https://www.acesso.gov.pt/unauthed/novoUtilizadorForm? which will result in a password being posted to your fiscal rep. Once you get hold of it you can arrange for electronic communications to go direct to you. You can only remove your fiscal rep in person, though a new rep may be able to take over without your personal presence.
> 
> With regard to NHR, you *must *be recorded as a Portuguese resident (as described by hktoportugal) *before *you can apply. The application *must *be done online through the portal.


Thank you. I guess the plan is buy a house, then register for residency, and then apply for NHR status. And if 183 days approaches leave the country until I get an answer about the NHR.


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## RichardHenshall (Jul 26, 2009)

Once you're registered a resident by changing your address with Finanças you are free to apply for NHR. Approval is normally within 24/48 hours. You could do it all before buying a property, which leaves you with the easier choice to leave if it's all gone wrong.


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## vianina (Feb 25, 2020)

I do not believe the situation is as catastrophic as you suggest. For example, Financas was not even willing to switch my status to resident until I brought them the residency certificate issued by the Camara, which I got in February having bought my apartment in December. So I got the year of property purchase for 'free', was told by Financas that there was no need to submit a declaration for that year, and was able to obtain NHR onine easily to start from purchase year +2. 

I would strongly advise against France if you want an uncomplicated life and do not want to be bombarded with taxes masquerading as social contributions that prop up a quite intolerable bureaucracy.


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

vianina said:


> I do not believe the situation is as catastrophic as you suggest. For example, Financas was not even willing to switch my status to resident until I brought them the residency certificate issued by the Camara, which I got in February having bought my apartment in December. So I got the year of property purchase for 'free', was told by Financas that there was no need to submit a declaration for that year, and was able to obtain NHR onine easily to start from purchase year +2.
> 
> I would strongly advise against France if you want an uncomplicated life and do not want to be bombarded with taxes masquerading as social contributions that prop up a quite intolerable bureaucracy.


If I go to France it would just be temporary, not to become a tax resident. I am a permanent US tax resident anyway. I am wondering if maybe I could start a 1 year lease in October 2020 and then claim tax residency in 2021. I think buying a house is going to take a very long time here. I have never seen such a mess with street addresses and finding a property. I just wasted 3 hours today alone looking for an address that does not apparently exist. I even found a custom website that shows street locations because google does not show them all. But the streets and addresses are a mess, and gps sometimes takes me up streets so narrow I am afraid I will knock the mirrors off both sides of the car at once. But at the very least they should put up REAL street signs and REAL numbering, and these little dead end streets should have their own names and numbering. 

How the heck do the postal workers deliver mail here? GOD BLESS YOU, I would not last 1 week at your job! Maybe it is better down south but in the north it is a mess.

And on a side note, what is with all the diesels and the 2 stroke motorbikes? They smoke and they stink to high heaven.  Are they doing anything to get them off the streets?


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## vianina (Feb 25, 2020)

Those annoying engines will not be going anywhere in the next few decades. Even Switzerland has them. The confusing streets: either you accept them as part of the charm, or ... or why would you choose Portugal? If you’re buying in the countryside, local services will not be great. Mail is hit and miss. Many other things are too. I had to get the health centre to correct my nationality in my file twice even though they had a photocopy of my passport. You just can’t sweat the small stuff in Portugal. No offence meant.


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## Strontium (Sep 16, 2015)

John and Cecil said:


> If I go to France it would just be temporary, not to become a tax resident. I am a permanent US tax resident anyway. I am wondering if maybe I could start a 1 year lease in October 2020 and then claim tax residency in 2021. I think buying a house is going to take a very long time here. I have never seen such a mess with street addresses and finding a property. I just wasted 3 hours today alone looking for an address that does not apparently exist. I even found a custom website that shows street locations because google does not show them all. But the streets and addresses are a mess, and gps sometimes takes me up streets so narrow I am afraid I will knock the mirrors off both sides of the car at once. But at the very least they should put up REAL street signs and REAL numbering, and these little dead end streets should have their own names and numbering.
> 
> How the heck do the postal workers deliver mail here? GOD BLESS YOU, I would not last 1 week at your job! Maybe it is better down south but in the north it is a mess.
> 
> And on a side note, what is with all the diesels and the 2 stroke motorbikes? They smoke and they stink to high heaven.  Are they doing anything to get them off the streets?


Hi, I really like Portugal because it's a people centered place (and has a long history which is not being destroyed but is part of everyday life) and not a admin place (like Germany) so even the everyday activities vary depending on who is involved like getting a breakfast coffee taking 15 to 45 minutes because of the requirement to talk to people going to or in the local cafe rather then snatching a non-reusaable cup of corporate Floppychino from some nameless chain. Though it's of no help to you at the moment if you accept that the pace of life here is slower then youll not get so frustrated trying to impose your speed and standards on a country which functions in it's own way. So if everything admin related here takes 10 time as long as you think it'll take, then, that's what it takes but (as I have done) you can leave your front door open and and go away for 3 weeks and no-one takes anything - and you can get a fishing license from an ATM, If you can't see the house number or street name then ask a postperson or passing local as they probably do and because most of the locals know then there's no reason to have unnecessary signs. The little two stoke motorbikes are old, fuel efficient, reliable and cheap which for many is the only way they have their own transport, mine uses bio-degradable twostroke oil and fuel consumption was 256 mpg (uk gallon) when new so uses a fraction of what any usual car would. The emission from petrol cars are arguably worse as they produce far more NOX which is an insidious pollutant rather then a bio-degradable mist - diesel cars have been banned from some parts of built up Lisbon but as it's quite a poor country getting the general population to buy new cars to replace their diesels would take time and for some would net be possible because fo the cost involved - also if you spent time in central Portugal you'll find it verydifficult if you do not have some access to transport for stuff like getting to a market or doctor etc. One of the better pollutant related successes it the country ran for a week ( i think?) on renewable energy and there is plans for this to increase. Your frustration probably leads to a heart attack as thing here are not going to change quickly just to accommodate efficiency whereas accepting the admin randomness and hurdles makes a Central/North Portugal a beautiful and relaxing place to live.


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