# Endesa Estimated bills



## voxmagna (Feb 23, 2012)

Hi, I've just joined this forum and wonder if somebody can add to this:

I had my contract electricity power increased to 5.75 kW and they came and fitted a new remote reading (GSM?) meter. I checked the reading when we left for a stay in UK and sure enough the correct reading appeared on our next bill.

Then the next bill was an estimate, based on the same time last year with a large credit in the following bill after a 'real' reading. I asked Endesa why I received an estimated bill, when the meter can now be interrogated remotely. This was their reply:

Tras analizar su solicitud, nos ponemos en contacto con usted, informándole que el Real Decreto 1578/2008 establece que la lectura real del contador se realizará bimestralmente, de tal forma que se alternarán facturas en base a consumos reales con facturas en base a consumos estimados. Para realizar las lecturas estimadas nos basamos en una media del consumo que registró en el mismo período el año anterior.

....which basically says they are allowed to keep sending out bills based on estimated readings, even though you may have a smart meter fitted.

It seems to me there is no real advantage in having a remote reading meter and this is just a license for Endesa to keep on an army of meter readers pushing up their electricity costs. 

Does anybody know if this is just an Endesa thing, or would I get my smart meter read every time by another electricity company if I switched?

Thanks - Vox


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

voxmagna said:


> Hi, I've just joined this forum and wonder if somebody can add to this:
> 
> I had my contract electricity power increased to 5.75 kW and they came and fitted a new remote reading (GSM?) meter. I checked the reading when we left for a stay in UK and sure enough the correct reading appeared on our next bill.
> 
> ...



We have one of those meters in one of the flats that we let. Like you I enquired why they weren't using the technology to take readings and the answer I got was that until ALL meters were changed, NONE of them would be remotely read!

In other words, they will never use the new technology whilst they have that sort of mentality!


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## voxmagna (Feb 23, 2012)

snikpoh said:


> We have one of those meters in one of the flats that we let. Like you I enquired why they weren't using the technology to take readings and the answer I got was that until ALL meters were changed, NONE of them would be remotely read!
> 
> In other words, they will never use the new technology whilst they have that sort of mentality!


Thanks I was starting to come around to that. Why would they want to use the technology when they have an army of meter readers to pay wages and pensions to and severence pay if they lay them off AND are coining in interest free receipts from their direct debits to our bank accounts AND we are paying the banks through our charges for more transactions than really necessary? This is big business at the expense of consumers.

I think Spains Euro debt crisis may occur sooner than all meters being converted to smart types. Of course there's another issue that's going to surface. Different private companies are producing these meters and they don't all use the same data specifications. I can foresee future wranglings over who actually owns the intellectual property and access to them.


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## voxmagna (Feb 23, 2012)

voxmagna said:


> Thanks I was starting to come around to that. Why would they want to use the technology when they have an army of meter readers to pay wages and pensions to and severence pay if they lay them off AND are coining in interest free receipts from their direct debits to our bank accounts AND we are paying the banks through our charges for more transactions than really necessary? This is big business at the expense of consumers.
> 
> I think Spains Euro debt crisis may occur sooner than all meters being converted to smart types. Of course there's another issue that's going to surface. Different private companies are producing these meters and they don't all use the same data specifications. I can foresee future wranglings over who actually owns the intellectual property and access to them.


OK I've dreamed up a plan. If you are in permanent residence it is simpler as you can just read your meter and give them your readings. I'm not and making several visits per year. 2 years ago I had spent time doing building jobs on a couple of occasions with higher than normal electricity consumption. 

ENDESA only take an actual reading every two months and use an estimated reading based on the same month in the previous year for alternate months when they have no readings (even with a Smart meter!). 

In my case with a couple of high useage months, their cycle of over estimates will never be broken. ENDESA online accepts customer meter readings. From now on my personal organiser is programmed to remind me alternate months and 3 days before their bill date to send them a reading. If my property has been left empty it will be based on the reading I took when I shut off the electricity or their previous actual reading. If I was running a fridge, I would base my estimate on their last actuall reading. If you look at your ENDESA bills online you can easily work out the alternating dates for Lectura Estimada and Lectura real.

If ENDESA wants to dispute my customer reading they can always read their smart meter themselves. I'll let you know after the first estimated reading I give them if this works or not.

Incidentally, your privacy is not so good as you might think. Now the electricity companies have computerised their billing, the Hacienda have access to that information and can track the electricity consumption use of your Spanish property.


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## xicoalc (Apr 20, 2010)

All seems quite rediculous… on the news today I heard that they are prosing a 20% increase in electricity costs over the next year (10% this summer and 10% next year). Yet they have technology in place to save them potentially millions on the costs of a) reading the meters, and b) the administration of dealing with manual readings… Bonkers!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

steve_in_spain said:


> All seems quite rediculous… on the news today I heard that they are prosing a 20% increase in electricity costs over the next year (10% this summer and 10% next year). Yet they have technology in place to save them potentially millions on the costs of a) reading the meters, and b) the administration of dealing with manual readings… Bonkers!



Ahh..but it would put more people out of work....


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## audrie (Apr 4, 2012)

*estimated bills from endesa*

please help..we are getting bill from endesa for average e300 to e450 each mth..we have a small house with no air con and no heating and just a few lights!...we just cannot get through to endesa to come and check the meter...a friend tried who is spanish but they still did not come.....this is so wrong but after hours and money spent on thr phone..it just cuts off........i have tried the website to give the meter reading but that just cuts off as well !!!...so frrustrating and so expensive...i know there is something seriously wrong with the electric but have no idea what to do!...any help would be appreciated.


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## voxmagna (Feb 23, 2012)

audrie said:


> please help..we are getting bill from endesa for average e300 to e450 each mth..we have a small house with no air con and no heating and just a few lights!...we just cannot get through to endesa to come and check the meter...a friend tried who is spanish but they still did not come.....this is so wrong but after hours and money spent on thr phone..it just cuts off........i have tried the website to give the meter reading but that just cuts off as well !!!...so frrustrating and so expensive...i know there is something seriously wrong with the electric but have no idea what to do!...any help would be appreciated.


I can only suggest a few things. First you must be sure there is nobody illegally tapping into your electricity or there is no electricity being used due to a fault. 

Go find your meter. Turn off your electricity at the switch in your house then see if your meter has the disc going around (old style meter) or has a flashing red light (new style meter). If the meter is going around or the light is flashing then electricity is being used when your supply is off!

Now go and put the main switch back on and turn off the lights/aircon, water heater, washing machine and anything else you think is using electricity. Then go check the meter, if the disc is going around fast or the red light is flashing quickly your house is using electricity for something or there is a fault causing electricity to be used.

When you go to your meter, write down the code number of your meter. Then get the last (large) electricity bill and see if that meter code ties up. If it doesn't then Endesa are billing you from somebody elses meter readings.

Check your (high) bill for the words Lectura REAL (That is an actual meter reading) and Lectura ESTIMADA (That is an estimated reading). Look at the numbers and see if they have any similarity to the reading on your meter. If they don't, they are billing you for somebody elses meter. 

They base their estimates on the same month in the previous year, which is why I said it's a good idea to feed them your readings in the alternate months they don't read. Even if you were out by an amount, I don't think it would matter because to dispute your reading they would have to come and read the meter!

Have you registered yourself on the ENDESA web site yet so you can see all your past bills online? You have to do this first before you can send meter readings. Registering is a bit quirky to say the least, but even without Spanish, you can use the Babelfish translator to get an idea of the questions. They ask for identification. If you have a copy of your original contracto, fill in the web forms using that information. If you originally gave them a passport number which has been replaced, use the old passport number same as on the contract. It can take up to 48 hours to get the confirmation back you have online access to your account.

I think you should get your online ENDESA account up and running first, even with spanish help. Then you can check back on the information they have and their meter readings and send messages to customer services which you can prepare or have translated beforehand. Trying this over the phone speaking V little Spanish is extremely difficult.

Finally, are you sure you haven't had any 'Fines' put on your bill or put on at the same time a year ago? Ex Pats in different Spanish territories are not all treated the same with regard to the requirements for fitting ICP (read up on that).

Since I posted I have given them my reading online and been billed on that. This month it will be their actual reading (man calls). My electronic organizer and phone now remind me to give them a reading every alternate month. Eventually the unusually high consumption I had during building work a year ago, will work itself out - replaced by my readings for this year.

I hope that helps - Vox


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## Bfpijuan (Apr 6, 2011)

Suggestions from husband: check contract for how much you are contracted for, should be less than five kws. Could be faulty meter, call an electrician. Someone tapping your line, again an electrician. All the above fails, take bills to consumer affairs office.


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## Bfpijuan (Apr 6, 2011)

One more thing, if you live outside of city, maybe you contracted for paying for the lines?


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## voxmagna (Feb 23, 2012)

I forget to mention, if you reach the end of the road with the Administration and getting them to do something whilst the big bills keep coming in, you could always as a last resort consider cancelling your contract and switch supplier.

Alternatively, check if you have the ICP at your property in the electric box and the killowatt capacity of your present contract (and if you are paying for the maintenance of electric lines to your house).

Instead of them procrastinating leaving you to pick up big bills every month, you could take the initiative by having the ICP fitted if not there and getting yourself on the right power tarrif if it is wrong. You may be being billed on the 10 killowatt tariff if you have no ICP. I was just 2 months away from that. They may have sent you warning letters in Spanish you didn't understand.

Once you trigger them into doing something new or change your supply contracto, you will get a new meter and paperwork which should all tie up . In this process they will be checking your property address and meter serial number. They will not make the changes if they go to the wrong house and have somebody elses meter details!

Be warned that there are always risks in being left without electricity, but if your bank balance is disappearing every month, you may be ready to take some drastic action, albeit with risks.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

voxmagna said:


> OK I've dreamed up a plan. If you are in permanent residence it is simpler as you can just read your meter and give them your readings. I'm not and making several visits per year. 2 years ago I had spent time doing building jobs on a couple of occasions with higher than normal electricity consumption.
> 
> ENDESA only take an actual reading every two months and use an estimated reading based on the same month in the previous year for alternate months when they have no readings (even with a Smart meter!).
> 
> ...


It will as under the existing law they can only bill 50% of the previous years invoice for the following months read bill. I.E. If the meter is read in september , then the estimated bill for august can be only 50% of the previous years bill for september. 
Under the electricity regulations they have a legal duty to read the meter a mimimum amount of times per year. Sorry I can't remember the amount.

If the electricity companies are not using the 'smart' meters to ascertain useage & are estimating ,then how can the hacienda ,who are not meter readers , use them ? You'd be able to drag that out for years !

Audrie 
Go to the office, with your spanish friend if necessary, & ask for & fill in the 'Hojas de reclamación'. Explain to them that under the electricity regulations they are commiting an offence by not reading the meter & make sure that it is all on the forms.Then take your copy to the OMIC offices & let them do the work for you.

Under the new Regulations, that Rajoy is re-introducing, we are going back to meters read every 2 months & NO estimated bills allowed in between !

Having said all that; Up until 2007 theIberdrola lad used to come every 2 months & read the meter. Then Iberdrola decided to have an 'efficiency drive' by shutting the large office that they had & moving into a rented broom cupboard in an electrical repair shop & by using a service company to do the meter readings.
Since january 2007 my meter has been read 7 times. Yes 7 times !!!! Once in 2007 ( january ) twice in 2008 , I phoned in the reading in 2009 ( the girl must have been off sick :rolleyes2 Then we had two in 2010 , june & july !!! March 2011 &The last time I saw her was May 2011.
They tend to issue either,guesstimated bills , which aren't far out or slightly over so that I'm always in front or , you will get months on end when the amount is for the standing charges only.


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## audrie (Apr 4, 2012)

voxmagna said:


> I forget to mention, if you reach the end of the road with the Administration and getting them to do something whilst the big bills keep coming in, you could always as a last resort consider cancelling your contract and switch supplier.
> 
> Alternatively, check if you have the ICP at your property in the electric box and the killowatt capacity of your present contract (and if you are paying for the maintenance of electric lines to your house).
> 
> ...


thankyou for your replies.,....I have felt for some time that there could be someone taking electric from the house but how would that be possible?..the house was new when we bought it 5 yrs ago..would it have to be an immediate neighbour or someone living elsewhere?...I thought of changing to one of those companies advertised in the sur but worry in case they disappear and we have to start all over again....also with the idea of turning off all the electric to see the meter going round, is it necessary to turn off the boiler and oven and fridge from the mains?..any help would be greatly appreciated..thanks.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

audrie said:


> thankyou for your replies.,....I have felt for some time that there could be someone taking electric from the house but how would that be possible?..the house was new when we bought it 5 yrs ago..would it have to be an immediate neighbour or someone living elsewhere?...I thought of changing to one of those companies advertised in the sur but worry in case they disappear and we have to start all over again....also with the idea of turning off all the electric to see the meter going round, is it necessary to turn off the boiler and oven and fridge from the mains?..any help would be greatly appreciated..thanks.


yes, you'd need to unplug or at least turn off EVERYTHING which uses electricity - that's the only way to be sure that if the meter shows that something is running, it isn't yours


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> yes, you'd need to unplug or at least turn off EVERYTHING which uses electricity - that's the only way to be sure that if the meter shows that something is running, it isn't yours


.... but you don't actually turn off any individual appliance! Go to your 'fuse board' aka consumer panel, and flip the main switch (normally top left) so that ALL power (in theory) has been turned off.


Now go and check the meter.


You may want to check a few appliances in the home to ensure that you have turned all off.


It is not unknown for builders (mainly of new properties) to fix a supply to one property and then use this whilst completing the others. They may then simply 'forget' to disconnect when they are finished.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> .... but you don't actually turn off any individual appliance! Go to your 'fuse board' aka consumer panel, and flip the main switch (normally top left) so that ALL power (in theory) has been turned off.
> 
> 
> Now go and check the meter.
> ...










how daft do I feel


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## audrie (Apr 4, 2012)

the tariff is 2.0A.....is that good?.....the last bill says "estimate 73.395 and "real" 71.581.................there is no heating etc...the past 4 weeks total is e334!.....which is ridiculous......I have just tried to register online but at the end it keeps saying "number field must be a valid tax ID".......where does this go and what it is......help!


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## voxmagna (Feb 23, 2012)

..............If the electricity companies are not using the 'smart' meters to ascertain useage & are estimating ,then how can the hacienda ,who are not meter readers , use them ? You'd be able to drag that out for years !


Don't worry they have you by the short and curlies!

If you get Endesa bills, you will have noticed for the last 3 or 4 years they have been printing out that little graph showing your 'useage'. back then I suspected what was coming. Even if you get estimated bills, there will follow actual readings and credits back to your account for overpayments. In terms of Actual useage, you cannot dispute the actual amounts of electricity used, particularly over a year and that is the information they will be using. 

If you have been with Endesa a long time you will be surprised that 3 or 4 years of historical billing and useage data is already there online, even before they set up online account access. lots of money seem to have been spent putting your historic electricity data into their computers

If you want to throw a spanner in their works and have access to sun (?), then install a solar PV array with inverter and some battery storage.

Now for the Rules. According to the Spanish communication that was sent to me when I first started this: 

.........1578/2008 establece que la lectura real del contador se realizará bimestralmente, de tal forma que se alternarán facturas en base a consumos reales con facturas en base a consumos estimados. Para realizar las lecturas estimadas nos basamos en una media del consumo que registró en el mismo período el año anterior.......


Somebody can translate this and look up the Ley., but my understanding is the electricity companies are allowed to read the meters every two months and estimate the months in between. My gripe is their estimate in my case was based on the same month a year ago, when a more representative estimate would have been the previous month (or two).

I have now proved that having a Smart meter makes no difference to stopping their alternate monthly estimates. Yes, they could read the meter every month just by triggering it to send an SMS text (so could the hacienda!). In their mindset of things, meter readings are probably sub-contracted out and they pay for that anyway. There's probably some contractual or Union agreement that stops anybody else from reading (Smart) meters and they have to send the man for the other non-Smart meters anyway.

Therefore, I have come to the conclusion it is best to remind yourself to send them a reading every second month. If you are living at the property that should be straightforward once you can manage your electricity account online. If you are not always living at your property, you can still send them your best estimate (guess) based on what you know about your consumption if you are not there (fridges and pool pumps left running) and the previous Actual reading from your online account. 

As I said earlier, generating some electricity yourself and cooking with Butano could screw up their estimates of habitacion.


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## voxmagna (Feb 23, 2012)

audrie said:


> the tariff is 2.0A.....is that good?.....the last bill says "estimate 73.395 and "real" 71.581.................there is no heating etc...the past 4 weeks total is e334!.....which is ridiculous......I have just tried to register online but at the end it keeps saying "number field must be a valid tax ID".......where does this go and what it is......help!


You had the same problem I did. 

My original (GESA) account was setup with my passport number for identification. Whatever form of ID you used to setup your contract, the stupid web form ( and the people at the other end) will be expecting the same. It's a few months since I did it now, but from memory there is an English language gateway link into registering yourself online with Endesa which saves some translation work. You need to take the application route which doesn't require the national identity number.

The ID they will be expecting from most Nationals is their DNI or tax reference number. On the form I filled out, it said DNI or Passport. Now there was something funny about what the box expected as a passport number. If you have your contract or a copy, see what ID they have for you. I vaguely remember their web form for my old passport required the two letter prefix. So if you are entering a new replacement passport number, not the one you agreed the contract with it might reject your input. You just play around with the numbers until the form finds something it likes. 

I had another issue in that they expect you to have a contact telephone number and you cannot complete the form without one. It won't accept UK numbers either. I don't have a line phone and only switch on my Spanish mobile when in Spain. I gave them my bank phone number and it swallowed that whole.

If you eventually succeed in completing the online application form you have to wait at least 48 hours for anything to happen. I actually think they have a human that goes through the details you submitted and cross checks with what they know from your contract. If the data pretty well stacks up you are sent their strange welcome email.

I have checked my new contract Tarrif and it is 2.0A. That is a 5.5 killowatt contract and means in theory in your main switch box or fitted on the wall you should have the 25 Amp ICP trip fitted. 

Are those meter readings you posted roughly what you read on the meter? If yes then the readings ARE from the meter in your property. I don't understand those readings you posted because if they estimated 73395 and the real was 71581 then you should see a toatal CREDIT on your bill of - 1814 units. Notice they put minus signs in front of the total to show a credit = money back!!

Back to your consumption. When you have done the disconnection tests to prove the meter isn't reading when the main switch is 'off', you then need to find out what is taking electricity. I bought myself an OWL electricity energy monitor in UK and now have that fitted so I can see exactly what gets used as things are turned on. My meter is several floors below me, but using the energy monitor, I can now see my useage in real time in my house. 

Without an energy monitor you can use your electricity meter just looking at the last 2 numbers over say an hour. I had suspicions but confirmed that my 15 year old fridge was running longer than it should consuming 600 watts!. That is about to get swapped out for a new 'A' rated fridge freezer and the Spanish will give me an Eco discount for the replacement!

Electric water heaters and cookers are the next highest consumers of electricity. If your appliances are very old, consider more energy efficient one's. Lights if not low energy flourescent can take quite a lot to


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## rialto (Apr 16, 2012)

Hi
Can anyone confirm if the rumour that Endesa are going to stop estimating bills from sept 2012 and simply bill every 2 months is true or not?

Ive had issues with ourt holiday home being vastly overestoimated but managed to sortt hings out on an ongoing basis.

If they start to cease estimates then things should be much simpler...if not then I can see me always having to watch them like a hawk each month.

Voxmagna - did you manage to submit readings online for the months when they estimate? If so was it succesful or not?

Also has anyone here dropped endesa and gone with any other company?

I have been wondering about maybe using Midas. They have an office very near to where we live and they have lots of englsih speaking staff members.

has anyone used them? Or used any other supplier than Endesa?

If so - any feedback please re the change over process and hassle factor?

Whilst I absolutely love coming to Spain, I find the bureacracy to be crazy - Endesa in particular just simply do not have the foggiest idea about customer service/joined up thinking etc.

God help this country and its financial woes - they deserve exactly whatever they are going to get in my opinion.


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## voxmagna (Feb 23, 2012)

rialto said:


> Hi
> Can anyone confirm if the rumour that Endesa are going to stop estimating bills from sept 2012 and simply bill every 2 months is true or not?
> 
> Ive had issues with ourt holiday home being vastly overestoimated but managed to sortt hings out on an ongoing basis.
> ...


My online estimated readings were sucked in by their website and it spewed out a bill based on those readings 4 days later. Note that I'm inputting my readings 3-4 days before their normal bill date so they have less excuse to ignore the readings. You do get back an automated confirmation of the readings you sent online, so that is useful evidence to keep.



> Can anyone confirm if the rumour that Endesa are going to stop estimating bills from sept 2012 and simply bill every 2 months is true or not?


 Not sure what you mean there. If they are going to bill every 2 months without an estimate then they will double the work of meter readers. Somebody has to pay for that - Guess who?

Somebody told me that having a smart meter mean't I wouldn't find charges on my bill for meter readings. I haven't confirmed either, but it sounds like a wheeze to keep employment up and push more to paying for a smart meter, or they think most won't notice meter reading charges and pay up. Once any large company has access to your bank account through direct debit, they can build up huge reserves of cash. We know how expensive it is becoming for Spain to borrow money at the moment, so they are on to a good zero interest wheeze with that and when their accounts are produced, they look better for all our cash sitting there to. Fine until the going gets tough for them or you need to switch, or get your overpayments refunded. I bet if Endesa takes 6 months to pay back money you won't get interest!

The logical move would be to split the difference and go to quarterly actual readings and do away with their estimate idea. That's how it has worked in UK for years. Although, notice how the UK elec. companies are now offering incentives in their online deals for customers to submit their own readings (reminded by email) - then they do an actual reading about every 6 months.

My next reading will be an actual and since I'm not there with the main circuit breaker turned off, I expect their reading to be the same as my own reading I inputted 2 months ago - unless somebody has been hot wiring to my supply! In UK if you submit your own readings within a few days of getting an online bill, they cancel the bill and re-issue it with your readings. I haven't tested that yet, but I bet in Spain they will zap your bank account so fast there will be no grace period to dispute or revise their estimate with your own.


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## rialto (Apr 16, 2012)

Thanks for that. It sounds like submitting readings on line in the months were they estimate works! They say you cant do it until 2 days before the previous months readings - so lets see if that works! So if it was read on the 6th for example in April, you can submit your reading from the 4th of May.

Regarding the 2 monthly thing I mentioned. I had been told it by a neighbour and then I asked one of the staff at the Nerja Endesa office if it was true - she said yes - in September!
When I mentioned that her life would be simpler then - she laughed in an acknowledging and agreeing way - so lets hope.

I guessed they just would just bill every 2 months - rather like the water comapny bill us every 3 months on actual readings each time - never any problems there.

OK, doing that would mean cash flow peaks / troughs etc - but they would still get all the money due to them anyway plus they would avoid the massive costs that they must incur when they deal with angry overcharged customers every 2 months. It has to be said that even though they seldom correct many complaints - they do actually get involved in communication with you - so thats a cost theyd avoid.
All in all it sounds a common sense solution to me - meaning that there is no way it can possibly happen if Endesa are involved!


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## BaileyBen (Feb 21, 2015)

i am ex pat pensioner and been resident for 15 years recently applied for social bono with Endesa and benn told only for spanish pensioners ! My uk pension is paid into spanish bank. All my pension is spent in Fuerteventura is this discrimination and not complying with EU rules. Would appreciate any views. The same applies to pensioner discounts for water !!!!!


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