# US Citizen applied for German citizenship now needs to relinquish US citizenship. Adv



## Fledermaus

I have applied for German citizenship (Einbügerung). I fulfill all requirements and I should get my naturalization papers in about 6 weeks according to the German officials. I am not allowed to keep my American citizenship and take German citizenship (German authorities do not allow it for foreign born non-EU nationals except in some very special cases). As a condition of my naturalization I need to give up/ relinquish my US citizenship..I have already signed a form saying I will do this. My motive is primarily to become German ( I have lived here for 24 years and my husband is German and I want to be completely integrated here) not to avoid being American… but those are the rules - no dual citizenship for me. So after I get my “Einbügerungsürkunde”I need to relinquish my US citizenship. My questions:

1.	Has anyone done this (particularly in Germany) and can give me some advice about the process. There is very little information on the US Munich Consulate Website
2.	The fee for renouncement has gone up from 450 dollars to 2,350 dollars. I would like to avoid this route if possible and according to my understanding I can relinquish and get a Certificate of Loss of Nationality based on 349 of the INA (8 U.S.C. 1481), as amended, states that U.S. nationals are subject to loss of nationality if they perform certain specified acts voluntarily and with the intention to relinquish U.S. nationality. Briefly stated, these acts include:

1.	obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon one’s own application after the age of 18 (Sec. 349 (a) (1) INA);
2.	taking an oath, affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or its political subdivisions after the age of 18 (Sec. 349 (a) (2) INA); 

I have done both of the above voluntarily and with intent of losing nationality.

3. How long does the whole process take?

4. What documents do I need to submit? I know I need to fill out form DS-4079. Do I need to get all the German documents translated? What other documents are important.

5. Finally, I realize I need to file final tax returns and prove I am not a “covert expat”. I have filed tax returns and FBARs for the past 7 years but I have never received any statement from the IRS or treasury department…how do prove tax compliance? 

Thanks for any advice?

Fledermaus


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## Pacifica

@ Fledermaus,

I don’t know specifically about relinquishing in Germany, but I have some general information regarding questions 2 through 5.

(2) That’s correct. The fee only applies to renunciations (_INA_, s. 349(a)(5)).



Fledermaus said:


> 3. How long does the whole process take?


Waiting time for an appointment varies, depending on the consulate. It’s generally from about a month to several months, but some places are shorter and a couple of places much longer. 

Waiting time for the CLN to arrive also varies, from about a month to about a year. CLNs for the Europe Division (Dept of State divides the world in five divisions for Overseas Citizens Services matters) seem to be taking a couple of months lately.

To get a better picture of wait times, you can google Consulate Report Directory. It has a tracking chart of people's wait times for appointments and wait times for receipt of CLN, arranged by consulate location. It also has about 200 pages of people’s reports of their relinquishment/renunciation meetings, also arranged by consulate location. 



Fledermaus said:


> 4. What documents do I need to submit? I know I need to fill out form DS-4079. Do I need to get all the German documents translated? What other documents are important.


The best source for this info is definitely the consulate you will be using. Required documents and procedure are mostly quite standard, but there are some variations from one consulate to another and also things can change over time. Many (most?) consulates have a standard form e-mail they send, listing documents required. 

In general, they will require you bring proof you are a US citizen (birth certificate or naturalisation document) and proof of your relinquishing act and the date on which it occurred. Marriage certificate if you changed your name upon marriage. Also your US passport, which they take and return to you, marked cancelled, in your CLN package (your other personal documents are returned to you at your meeting). For specifics and completeness, though, as mentioned above, check with the consulate you’ll be dealing with.

The Dept of State forms used are the 4079 Questionnaire, which you mentioned, and the 4081 Statement of understanding of consequences – some consulates type this up for you, some have you prepare it (they’ll let you know) – and the 4083 Certificate of Loss of Nationality which they fill out.

Some consulates want you to send scans of your 4079 and supporting documents to them in advance of your meeting but some don’t. 

The Department of State’s procedure manual on relinquishment is at this link.



Fledermaus said:


> 5. Finally, I realize I need to file final tax returns and prove I am not a “covert expat”. I have filed tax returns and FBARs for the past 7 years but I have never received any statement from the IRS or treasury department…how do prove tax compliance?


You don’t have to prove tax compliance to the consulate. It has no bearing on the relinquishment itself, so Dept of State leaves that to Dept of Treasury (IRS). 

You will have to certify on your IRS expatriation form (8854) that you are in tax compliance for the previous five years. What that entails is checking "yes" to a question on the 8854 form (Part IV (A)(6)) :

“Do you certify under penalties of perjury that you have complied with all of your tax obligations for the 5 preceding tax years (see instructions)?”

The instructions don’t ask you to submit proof, so presumably IRS verifies it through their database.

Your 8854 is due June 15th of the following year. So, if you notify the consulate this year of your relinquishment, your 8854 would be due June 15th, 2016.


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## Fledermaus

Thank you Pacifica for answering my questions in the post in a very detailed way. As well the resource Consulate Report Directory has bee very helpful. Now it all seems less daunting.


Fledermaus


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## asti

As usual, Pacifica and many others are a godsend of information for all of us out here.... 
Fledermaus, I applied for my German citizenship yesterday...

I married my national husband 25 years ago, had two girls (dual) and have decided that the time has come to relieve myself of the US pressures. My daughters have decided to take the same route with me, however, the increased fee for renouncing is a whammy for the 3 of us together. I know that taking an oath should suffice in order to relinquish but, my gut feeling wasn´t 100% sure if it would suffice without a hassle.

Months back I remember having read something over exceptions to the rule of dual citizenship in Germany (i.e. high fees), so in October I contacted my local emigration office to ask about this. The officer I spoke to contacted the main government office but, they had no knowledge of higher fees from the US side and therefore I was shrugged off... I decided to let things slide for the rest of the year to clear my head and figure out how to manage the costs before asking for an appointment for the German citizenship. Well, I went yesterday, 03. Feb. and it turns out that my inquiry from October (at least that is what my emig. officer told me) supposedly had triggered the main office to research the issue and revise their info lists regarding renouncement fees from other countries and the updated list came out on January 30th, 2015.... Good thing for me that I let things slide a while. ;D

As a result, and since I´m currently not working/have no income and only a percentage of my husband´s gross income can be calculated toward me (it was less than half) the fee of $2350 or, roughly 2000 Euro was well above my 'income' and therefore my application was accepted for dual citizenship.

Nonetheless, if anyone has gone through the process of renouncing/relinquishing at any of the consulates in Germany within the last year and could give recent accounts of their experiences it would be helpful for many others. Thanks all


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## Fledermaus

Hi Asti,

We are in a similar situation...I have also lived here for 24 years married to my German husband for 22 of those years. I also tried to find out from the German authorities if I would fall into the category of exceptions for dual citizenship due to high fees"unzumutbare Bedingungen wegen überhöhten Gebühren". They told me I would need to get a statement from the US consulate stating the fee of 2,350 and then my and my husband's combined income would be considered. My income is way under the 2,000 Euro limit, but not our combined income. I figured I would not get accepted for the exception (I live in Bavaria which seems to be strict about everything) and just decided to go through with the naturalization process and then relinquish my US citizenship. I'm glad it worked out for you though.

Thanks for your reply.


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## Wegwerfen

asti said:


> As a result, and since I´m currently not working/have no income and only a percentage of my husband´s gross income can be calculated toward me (it was less than half) the fee of $2350 or, roughly 2000 Euro was well above my 'income' and therefore my application was accepted for dual citizenship.


I made an account just to ask you about this. I hope that's okay.

I want to become a dual citizen by naturalization, and the exception for überhohte Gebühren seems like the only way. I will meet all other requirements in November.

I don't personally know anyone else in this situation and have only interacted with two other Americans on another forum who are currently applying with this exception in mind. Both of their applications have faced administrative delays for months, and it looks like they may ultimately be compelled to _relinquish_, which is still free. (Of course, relinquishing is all about _intent_, and you can't _compel_ someone to have an_ intent_... the legal ambiguity here is Supreme Court material.)

Do you mean to say that you are currently a dual citizen from having taken this path? If so, you could be a very important precedent-setter and I'd like to talk to you further.


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## asti

Hello Wegwerfen,

Yes, I have naturalized and am considered a dual... I sent you a private message.


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## Wegwerfen

Fantastic. Thank you so much. Your responses are very exciting to see. 

Because this is a new account, I can't PM you back until I have three more posts. I'll work on that (and I'll keep them high-quality, I promise!), and then I'll be back in touch with some questions.


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## Fledermaus

Hi Wegwerfen, 
I have sent you a pm.


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## Schlampazius

Hello Fledermaus,
I just applied for German Citizeship today. Basically the same situation: 34 years in Germany, wife is German, two adult children both dual citizens. Have you received your "Einbürgerungszusicherung" yet? If yes, how long did it take? If you have already gone through relinquishing it would be interesting to know how it went and if you had legal help.
Thanks for any information.
Schlampazius


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## Fledermaus

Schlampazius said:


> Hello Fledermaus,
> I just applied for German Citizeship today. Basically the same situation: 34 years in Germany, wife is German, two adult children both dual citizens. Have you received your "Einbürgerungszusicherung" yet? If yes, how long did it take? If you have already gone through relinquishing it would be interesting to know how it went and if you had legal help.
> Thanks for any information.
> Schlampazius


Hi Schlampazius,

I am actually still in the process of relinquishing. I will send you a pm with more info.


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## Schlampazius

Fledermaus said:


> Hi Schlampazius,
> 
> I am actually still in the process of relinquishing. I will send you a pm with more info.


Thank you!


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## Fledermaus

Hi Schlampazius, I sent you a visitor's message...hope you can open it. Fledermaus


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## Schlampazius

Fledermaus said:


> Hi Schlampazius, I sent you a visitor's message...hope you can open it. Fledermaus


Yes, I was able to read it. Thank you for the information. I was amazed at how fast the naturalization went. I was told it takes approximately 1 year. Which US Consulate did you choose for relinquishing? 

Regards
Schlampazius


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## Schlampazius

Fledermaus said:


> Hi Schlampazius,
> 
> I am actually still in the process of relinquishing. I will send you a pm with more info.


Thanks again for the iformation. I am not yet able to use the PM (or the Visitor Message) function so I have to post my comments here. Technically I belong to Frankfurt. However, I prefer Munich and have gone there for all my needs over the past 10 years or so. I will let you know how things work out for me.


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## Schlampazius

Hi, once again thank you for all the valuable information. I will attempt to get it all done the same way as you did.

Regards
Schlampazius


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## Fledermaus

Schlampazius said:


> Hi, once again thank you for all the valuable information. I will attempt to get it all done the same way as you did.
> 
> Regards
> Schlampazius


All the best of luck to you. Let me know how it works out.


Fledermaus


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## giovani1059

*US and German*

Those above, I like that there is a way to retain the U.S. 

I was a soldier and married a German. We located to the states for 11 years now. She still has her German Citizenship. We are working on getting my son (11 years old) dual. And I would love to have the opportunity to get dual also. I have no clue as to what I need to do or the requirements to do so. I noticed the posters above did so and would love information on your process.

We are looking to relocate to Germany in 2017. Also if I am working for the US Government still in Germany will this be an issue? 

Thanks,

Rome


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## beppi

Your son is allowed (by German law) dual citizenship for life if he is born as citizen (that is the case if one of his parents is German citizen at the time of birth). Just register him at the German embassy.
But for you, there is unfortunately no chance: If a non-EU citizen becomes German by application, he/she has to relinquish all other citizenships.


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## Nononymous

beppi said:


> But for you, there is unfortunately no chance: If a non-EU citizen becomes German by application, he/she has to relinquish all other citizenships.


There is one chance, as detailed by previous posters. If your income in Germany is low enough, the fee to renounce US citizenship ($2350) is considered a hardship, and you are allowed to keep US citizenship. 

(Although by naturalizing as a German citizen you'd think that counts as relinquishing, which does not incur the fee.)


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## Fledermaus

giovani1059 said:


> Those above, I like that there is a way to retain the U.S.
> 
> I was a soldier and married a German. We located to the states for 11 years now. She still has her German Citizenship. We are working on getting my son (11 years old) dual. And I would love to have the opportunity to get dual also. I have no clue as to what I need to do or the requirements to do so. I noticed the posters above did so and would love information on your process.
> 
> We are looking to relocate to Germany in 2017. Also if I am working for the US Government still in Germany will this be an issue?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Rome


I am not a dual citizen and (as far as I know) keeping American citizenship and naturalizing as German is not possible. Even if you decided to become German and relinquish your US citizenship (which I am required to do) having a spouse that is German is not enough. You must live a certain number of years in Germany, pass a citizenship test, have a required level of German with a language certificate and prove that you can support yourself financially. 

Fledermaus


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## carlodelsol

Hi Fledermaus, Hi Schlampazius,

This thread is a year old now so perhaps there is some update which can be posted if you would be so kind.
Was the relinquishment accepted without the $2350 fee? 
Did you mail in the forms or appear before a consulate officer ?

My family and myself received the Einbürgerungszicherungschein and I am planning on trying this method which you referred to also. However I have read that the law was changed in 2015 so that now (from an embassy website): " A fee of $2,350 for renouncing or relinquishing U.S. nationality is payable during the final interview." 
also from Forbes "Second fee hike to exit US in 12 Months"

Thanks for sharing this valuable information on this complex topic.


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## Nononymous

carlodelsol said:


> Hi Fledermaus, Hi Schlampazius,
> 
> This thread is a year old now so perhaps there is some update which can be posted if you would be so kind.
> Was the relinquishment accepted without the $2350 fee?
> Did you mail in the forms or appear before a consulate officer ?
> 
> My family and myself received the Einbürgerungszicherungschein and I am planning on trying this method which you referred to also. However I have read that the law was changed in 2015 so that now (from an embassy website): " A fee of $2,350 for renouncing or relinquishing U.S. nationality is payable during the final interview."
> also from Forbes "Second fee hike to exit US in 12 Months"
> 
> Thanks for sharing this valuable information on this complex topic.


I'm pretty sure you are stuck paying the $2350 fee in this case, if you need to document having relinquished by taking on German citizenship. (Up to you whether you want to bother will all the various US tax filings that entails.)

I did hear last year of someone who obtained German citizenship but was able to keep her US citizenship - the treasured Beibehaltungsgenehmigung - because the US fee was high enough in relation to her family income that it was considered a hardship. You could look into that approach unless you're determined for tax reasons to ditch the US citizenship (which is probably the better long-term plan).


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