# Second Negative outcome for Skill Assessment



## wkcai (Aug 29, 2017)

Hi all,

I am now desperate and need some advice for what my next course of action should be.

A little background info: 
I am a Banquet Assistant Manager in a Hotel and have been in banquets for close to 5 years now. My current workplace is the 2nd Hotel, and in my 1st hotel, i was also working in banquets, also handling the restaurant where guests have their daily breakfasts.

What people in banquets do, is we execute and manage meetings, conferences, exhibitions, dinners, cocktails, weddings, coffee breaks, and many various events in hotel ballrooms and function rooms.

Situation:
I am currently using an agent. On my first VETASSESS attempt, i nominated the occupation of Hotel/Motel Manager (ANZSCO 141311), and it came back with a negative outcome. The reasons stated was that: 

"According to ANZSCO, a Hotel or Motel Manager organises and controls the operations of hotels and motels to provide guest accommodation, meals and other services. Based on the verified information received, your scope of responsibilities appear to be predominantly focused on F&B and event operations at the hotels. It does not amount to the scope associated with the role of a Hotel Manager, which would cover all aspects of the hotel's operations"​
Upon getting that skills assessment outcome, i pondered and questioned myself. Because being in banquet, it really is in a grey area what my job skill is. Technically banquets is indeed in a hotel managers role. Though mostly pertaining to F&B. 
My agent suggested and urged me to nominate Cafe/Restaurant Manager instead. And upon reading the description of a Cafe/Restaurant Manager, it felt to me that it was perhaps indeed more relevant. In the abs.gov.au site, it even stated that alternative titles for such skill is 'F&B manager'. After receiving the first negative outcome, and reading up more, i decided to then tweak my resume, as well as request from my employers for a slight adjustment of my statement of service to be more toward f&b manager.

Once all was received and sent to my agent, the 2nd attempt of skill assessment was done. This was done as a RENOMINATION of the first attempt. 

When the results came back, i was appalled. the outcome was again negative. this time, the reason give was that:

According to ANZSCO, a Cafe or Restaurant Manager organises and controls the operations of a cafe, restaurant or related establishment to provide dining and catering services. As a managerial occupation, a level of general oversight of the operations of a cafe or restaurant is required, and involvement in the full scope of expected duties should be illustrated. Based on the documentation provided, your role at HOTEL B included a number of relevant duties, but the overall managerial oversight of restaurant operations fall to designations above that of your own. Duties at HOTEL A were conducted in a similarly supporting capacity, and included a broad scope of involvement in wider hotel operations not associated with the nominated occupation. A negative outcome has been reached for these reasons. A positive assessment of both qualifications​
I am shocked. why? because first of all, i fully manage the operations of said events on my own. I lead my staff and am involved in training and i fulfil all tasks listed under the task description. The outcome also said: ".... but the overall managerial oversight of restaurant operations fall to designations above that of your own." How would the CO even know what my bosses or superior do?! when it was never mentioned about them!

I really feel unjustified about this, and am hoping to seek more clarification. I have already spent a huge sum of money with the 1st assessment, and then renominating again. Even if it means appealing, i would have to fork out more. But i really feel all these is unnecessary.

I could use some advice please!! my agent is not the most helpful. 

Thank you.


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## Hazelnutlatte (Mar 6, 2017)

Occupations that have Manager in the title usually refer to more senior positions and does not merely mean that you should have the word Manager in your job title. That is why Vetassess gave you those responses.

Is there a related occupation that you can apply for and which does not say Manager in the title?


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## spark53 (Oct 26, 2015)

This is really sad and disappointing. How come your agent missed that? Is your agent an Australian MARA approved agent or a local agent? It does not necessarily mean your agent has to be an Australian based, but what is more important is Agent should review your R&R, occupation and everything to come to a decision of what occupation you will be successfully assessed, and even its failed, an appeal could be made which should bring something positive. I guess assessing authority also suggests alternative occupation code that is more suitable.

Many information is available about occupations and responsibilities. Just need to align it, and our should be good enough. For now, I guess you need to check what was wrong and how much far it is from the sample/example R&R by assessing authority.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## wkcai (Aug 29, 2017)

Hazelnutlatte said:


> Occupations that have Manager in the title usually refer to more senior positions and does not merely mean that you should have the word Manager in your job title. That is why Vetassess gave you those responses.
> 
> Is there a related occupation that you can apply for and which does not say Manager in the title?


Hi Hazaelnutlatte, I feel that a job title is only a job title. It is the job role and tasks that determines the job isnt it? 

Additionally, all my tasks is relevant to that description listed. and apparently from what my agent spoke to the assessing officer - it is mainly because i kid you not: ''the title I have of is of an assistant manager, therefore cannot be positively assessed according to the level of a manager."



spark53 said:


> This is really sad and disappointing. How come your agent missed that? Is your agent an Australian MARA approved agent or a local agent? It does not necessarily mean your agent has to be an Australian based, but what is more important is Agent should review your R&R, occupation and everything to come to a decision of what occupation you will be successfully assessed, and even its failed, an appeal could be made which should bring something positive. I guess assessing authority also suggests alternative occupation code that is more suitable.
> 
> Many information is available about occupations and responsibilities. Just need to align it, and our should be good enough. For now, I guess you need to check what was wrong and how much far it is from the sample/example R&R by assessing authority.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


I have just clarified with my agent, that she spoke to the assessing officer, and this is the response: "He told me because u are an assistant manager, therefore cannot be positively assessed according to the level of a manager."

I feel that this is really unjustified. because a title is just a title. in the negative outcome, it stated that:
"As a managerial occupation, a level of general oversight of the operations of a cafe or restaurant is required, and involvement in the full scope of expected duties should be illustrated. Based on the documentation provided, your role at HOTEL B included a number of relevant duties, but the overall managerial oversight of restaurant operations fall to designations above that of your own."​
Though my title is of an Asst Manager, i had the sole in charge of any banquet events that is held at the hotel. I lead a team of fellow managers, supervisors, captains, attendants and casual labours. I also manage and orchestrate the entire operations from start till end of the event. These are all also stated in the statement of service sent in by my employer. The hotel i work with is huge, and we have a total headcount of over a hundred. Hence there a multiple managers that handle various events. 

Having said so, is this not considered general oversight of the operations? 

I feel so unjust really.


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## wokeuplikediss (Apr 11, 2018)

Hi, how are you?

How is your situation now? 


Hope everything is ok


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## bob6612 (Dec 20, 2018)

*DODGY Vetasses*

Yes Guys, I am too pissed up With Vetasses .They needs dodgy paper work and dodgy overseas company to for positive outcome be honest.
I had same situation.I applied for Same Occupation "Hotel and Motel" manager as I got 2 years experience from one of the Chain 4 star hotel located in Sydney. My job title was NIGHT AUDITOR and its 24 hours Accommodation services and In room dining service Hotel with 120 Rooms.
I am only the hotel's Acting general manager on my working hours handling all issues from reservation/checking/Directing security Staff/Handling Complaints etc.

But It was accessed by INDIAN Woman may be from India although I paid AUD and was applied online from Australia .The outcome was Negative with following Funny comment
"According to ANZSCO, a Hotel or Motel Manager (Diploma Level) organises and controls the operations of hotels or motels in providing
guest accommodation, meals and other services. Based on the
documents provided, the main purpose of the above employment
position appears to be in mainly balancing hotel accounts and
administration as well as front desk duties between night hours,
which is not relevant to your nominated occupation as defined by
ANZSCO. 


Which is quite Funny Comment .Being Australia's reputed brand hotel In every third party booking sites in google mentions 24 hours bed and food service and I was only one to address those requirements how could she mention silly comment and deny for positive.

Actually I am looking for court to register this case can any one suggest where and how can i lodge???
I can challenge vetasses coz the job experience is from Australia and all information is genuine.

Simply DODGY VETASSES 




wkcai said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am now desperate and need some advice for what my next course of action should be.
> 
> ...


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## PrettyIsotonic (Nov 30, 2016)

bob6612 said:


> Yes Guys, I am too pissed up With Vetasses .They needs dodgy paper work and dodgy overseas company to for positive outcome be honest.
> 
> I had same situation.I applied for Same Occupation "Hotel and Motel" manager as I got 2 years experience from one of the Chain 4 star hotel located in Sydney. My job title was NIGHT AUDITOR and its 24 hours Accommodation services and In room dining service Hotel with 120 Rooms.
> 
> ...


That's a lot of assumptions you have my friend, I understand you're disappointed but the brutal truth is a Night Auditor is not a Hotel or Motel Manager. 

Sounds like you are unhappy someone who appears to have a female Indian name didn't give you a positive assessment, frankly that is sad. 

Just having genuine job experience from Australia is insufficient - you need to meet the anzsco requirements, and present it in a way that is required as well. 

Pretty sure they have a mechanism for you to reach them if you are unsatisfied with their professional opinion:
https://www.vetassess.com.au/skills...ews-reassessments-appeals-reissues-complaints


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## pcdfrost (Sep 30, 2018)

bob6612 said:


> Yes Guys, I am too pissed up With Vetasses .They needs dodgy paper work and dodgy overseas company to for positive outcome be honest.
> I had same situation.I applied for Same Occupation "Hotel and Motel" manager as I got 2 years experience from one of the Chain 4 star hotel located in Sydney. My job title was NIGHT AUDITOR and its 24 hours Accommodation services and In room dining service Hotel with 120 Rooms.
> I am only the hotel's Acting general manager on my working hours handling all issues from reservation/checking/Directing security Staff/Handling Complaints etc.
> 
> ...


Understandably you are unhappy, however your statements are not going to hold up in a court. Also, to point out you need “dodgy paper work and dodgy overseas company to for positive outcome” is probably as far from the truth as things get. In all honesty many applicants with offshore experience may even feel quite insulted by such a statement. Anyone who has actually gone through the effort to obtain all the relevant documentation will know this is no joke.

As was also pointed out, if you wish to query the outcome there is a platform to do so.


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## bob6612 (Dec 20, 2018)

*Job Title*

Job title does not matter my friend.Job Responsibilities matters.It is just skill assessment after graduation on same field.For example any one having graduation in electronic engineer might be working as maintenance worker in job title but by role and job description if he is working electronic engineering job every day making part of his daily shift checklist then He must have positive Skill Assessment as an electronic engineer.Because he got required post academic qualification and he is working engineering in practical skill .Job as worker job title does not make sense. 


Skill assessment is verification of professional Skill as practical experience but nothing to do with job title.

Likewise Job Title is Night auditor but job description is whole of Duty Manager plus Auditor. 

If employer mentions MANAGER word they have to pay 70K annually by law so to get cheaper manpower on 50 K annually they are not providing right Job title.
Skill assessment is for those only who got required level educational qualification and proven practical skill experience but not paper with job title. 
Cheers!


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## PrettyIsotonic (Nov 30, 2016)

bob6612 said:


> Job title does not matter my friend.Job Responsibilities matters.It is just skill assessment after graduation on same field.For example any one having graduation in electronic engineer might be working as maintenance worker in job title but by role and job description if he is working electronic engineering job every day making part of his daily shift checklist then He must have positive Skill Assessment as an electronic engineer.Because he got required post academic qualification and he is working engineering in practical skill .Job as worker job title does not make sense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Job duties are more important than job titles, but that doesn't mean job titles are completely irrelevant - which is why the position title is asked. 

Also, salary is taken into consideration to ensure you are working at the required skill level - which is why salary is asked. 

Hope you manage to get a positive skills assessment in your nominated occupation.


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## Anyad (Dec 10, 2018)

bob6612 said:


> Job title does not matter my friend.Job Responsibilities matters!


I've had that issue with VETASSESS as well where they got caught on the title despite my contract and duties saying otherwise. It is what it is.

I am just curious where are you from, if you're impression is that an Indian woman is being biased against you?


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## DavidFontaine (Jan 30, 2014)

As a Night Auditor I am assuming that you directly report to the overall Hotel Manager. I am assuming that you do not have authority over this person, or equal pay and authority. In this case, you are not the Hotel Manager, as the hotel manager is a separate person which you report to. 

Also, a banquet manager in a hotel is not the hotel manager nor a restaurant or cafe manager. 

An easy way to see this is to look in your current company's staffing structure. If there is someone else who has the exact title of the ANZSCO skill or someone who is closer in job description to the ANZSCO skill than you, then you are not going to receive a positive assessment as this other person does the job, not you.


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