# Is spain turning the corner



## Andy&vicky (Jun 15, 2014)

My wife and I both have lived in spain, so please no 'living the dream' quotes.
We moved back to UK 8 years ago, since we've 2 children one of whom had learning difficulties, autism & ADHD. 
Life in England for her is getting hard and will only get worst. We're fully aware problems spain have got, but. A new life for my daughter is hard to ignore. 

I know school fees are high, is that for the same for special needs schools and is there even special needs schools ?

Is the work situation still bleak ?
Think I already know the work answer but any good news you can share which I pass on to my wife who is really struggling with life here. 

Andy & vicky


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Andy&vicky said:


> Is the work situation still bleak ?
> Think I already know the work answer but any good news you can share which I pass on to my wife who is really struggling with life here.
> 
> Andy & vicky


Sorry I can't help with your questions about schools, but I'm sorry to say yes, the work situation is still very bleak - unemployment nationally is still just under 24%, the second highest in Europe after Greece. I am seeing more situations vacant adverts in the weekly English free paper (look for the Sur in English website and their classified ads section) but they are mostly for seasonal jobs in restaurants and bars, low paid and not good for anyone who needs to support a family.


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

But there is hope. My brother-in-law is sitting in a Madrid polling station. The people ensuring there are enough list slips are having to keep topping up the Podemos pile.

This is a workers area with high unemployment but even in an area where podemos would expect to kick PSOE it is surprising them. Just hope in other areas it is going as well.

So I guess give Spain 5 years and there may be light at the end of the tunnel. Hope that is not too late for you. But as Lynn says at the moment while in some areas there are a few jobs appearing most are so low paid, slave hours and temporary it cannot be a basis to return if you need work.


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## Andy&vicky (Jun 15, 2014)

Knew that work was a problem in spain that's why we haven't even thought about returning before now, I'll have to keep my fingers crossed that spain improve keep on improving like the rest of Europe. But at a slower rate.


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

Andy&vicky said:


> Knew that work was a problem in spain that's why we haven't even thought about returning before now, I'll have to keep my fingers crossed that spain improve keep on improving like the rest of Europe. But at a slower rate.


Hi - well, having been a member of this forum for several years now, I've come to the conclusion, through endless browsing, that there are just two successful options, employment - wise, for new migrants to Spain - namely, working offshore on an oil rig or running a successful Net - based business! Posters with incomes deriving from such endeavours seem to those requesting information on expensive private schools for their offspring and on the more luxurious Spanish rental properties..! 

I couldn't imagine myself ever choosing to work on an oil rig, regardless of high salary or location, although the 'three weeks on; three weeks off' work schedule might sound tempting to younger family men... However, you might prefer to delay your hoped- for move, for now, to enable you to come up with a brilliant new idea for an online business which could be run from home, in either Spain or the UK ( bearing in mind that much of Spain still has limited access to decent Net signals and speeds..:confused2:.)!

Good luck with your decision - making. Everything the earlier posts have stated, regarding continuing high levels of unemployment, are true. In addition, Spanish friends with professional jobs have had their contracted hours increased, their salaries cut and their clients/students/patients lists extended!

Other friends, working, of necessity, in low- paid menial jobs, have had to accept contracts which, in no way, reflect the truth re. the length of their work - days ( one hour, on paper; twelve hours, in practice..)! Additionally, it's the norm for them to be paid a fraction of their weekly wage 'officially', with the remainder being ' cash - in - hand', so as to avoid tax and employer contribution requirements for their bosses! 

Thus, these Spanish workers have no entitlement, in case of need, to sick- pay, unemployment benefits or pension contributions! 

The reality is that the businesses concerned would not survive, were they to operate honestly, with all of the ensuing costs - so, both bosses and their workers have calculated that they'd much have employment, albeit somewhat illegally, than have no jobs and no income, whatsoever..! It's impossible to believe that such businesses are unknown to the 'authorities', locally and regionally, so pragmatism is obviously the name of the game - in this Crisis- ridden corner of SW Andalucía! 

Saludos, 
GC


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## Andy&vicky (Jun 15, 2014)

Thank you all for your help and advice. I'm visiting friends in spain in July so will be able to see for myself what it's like but I'm guess no change since I was there in 2013.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

alborino said:


> But there is hope. My brother-in-law is sitting in a Madrid polling station. The people ensuring there are enough list slips are having to keep topping up the Podemos pile.
> 
> This is a workers area with high unemployment but even in an area where podemos would expect to kick PSOE it is surprising them. Just hope in other areas it is going as well.
> 
> .


Well, no, it didn't did it....Podemos came a poor third or fourth in most places. The bubble has burst.
As forecast.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Well, no, it didn't did it....Podemos came a poor third or fourth in most places. The bubble has burst.
> As forecast.


I can't agree with you there. I think the alternative parties did pretty well, at least in the areas that I've looked at, considering above all the length of time that they've been operating which is some instances is months. If they'd been a bit more solid and a bit more organised they could have got a third more votes in my opinion, but it should be recognised that what they have done is actually extraordinary.
I am diasappointed, although not surprised sadly that such large numbers voted for the PP. 

Maybe the vote should be taken away from the Spanish electorate as they seem to be incapable of using it in a responsible fashion.


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## Leper (May 12, 2010)

Hi Vicki and Andy, Forget about moving to Spain. Don't even make enquiries. If you have employment in the UK love it, cherish it, hug it, mind it and if you have some love left over give it to your spouse. 

If you even think work will become available within seven more years, just look at your average Spaniard. Does he/she even look like somebody who will drag Spain out of recession? The Spain of the great cities and the Spain of Andalucía are poles apart.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Leper said:


> Hi Vicki and Andy, Forget about moving to Spain. Don't even make enquiries. If you have employment in the UK love it, cherish it, hug it, mind it and if you have some love left over give it to your spouse.
> 
> If you even think work will become available within seven more years, just look at your average Spaniard. Does he/she even look like somebody who will drag Spain out of recession? The Spain of the great cities and the Spain of Andalucía are poles apart.


Your average Spaniard? What in the name of goodness is that?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

*😪*



Pesky Wesky said:


> I can't agree with you there. I think the alternative parties did pretty well, at least in the areas that I've looked at, considering above all the length of time that they've been operating which is some instances is months. If they'd been a bit more solid and a bit more organised they could have got a third more votes in my opinion, but it should be recognised that what they have done is actually extraordinary.
> I am diasappointed, although not surprised sadly that such large numbers voted for the PP.
> 
> Maybe the vote should be taken away from the Spanish electorate as they seem to be incapable of using it in a responsible fashion.


No, people vote for the Party they think will serve their interests. I respect their decisión whatever.
Over Spain as a whole PSOE did very well. Podemos came second in Madrid after PP but only as part of a coalition and under a different brand name, a very important detail. In the rest of Spain they did poorly. They peaked too soon and now on the way down.

PP still won the largest share of the vote overall.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I can't agree with you there. I think the alternative parties did pretty well, at least in the areas that I've looked at, considering above all the length of time that they've been operating which is some instances is months. If they'd been a bit more solid and a bit more organised they could have got a third more votes in my opinion, but it should be recognised that what they have done is actually extraordinary.
> I am diasappointed, although not surprised sadly that such large numbers voted for the PP.
> 
> Maybe the vote should be taken away from the Spanish electorate as they seem to be incapable of using it in a responsible fashion.


Back in the UK when the Labour Party was tearing itself apart in factional struggle, a group of frustrated moderate Party members broke ranks and formed a new Party, the SDP. It had a meteoric rise to success, won bye-elections, got a lot of publicity and new members...then fizzled out and fell to earth.
Before that we had our '15M' moment, our home-grown 'indignados'. We sat down in public places,(sit-ins) held discussions on politics, (we called them 'teach-ins') occupied public buildings, wrote off the stale old established Parties....

What amuses me is that not that long ago over-excited Podemos supporters were telling us that Podemos would soon be the Number One ruling Party in Spain...now they are bigging up their third place position...propping up, as they would see it, the much reviled 'casta'...although they don't see it as 'propping up' but that's what it is.

There really is nothing very new in politics. There are two main forces, those of change and those of reaction. Splitting and diluting the first serves only to strengthen the second. Wait and see.....


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## WorkFromHome (Jun 7, 2015)

I would love nothing more than to see Spain "turn around", but the truth is as long as I can remember we have always had high unemployment. 

I feel like we have a broken system and everything news to be revamped, what we have in place is not working. I feel like Spain is "stale".


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

The question can only be answered in terms of 'turning around...for whom'?
No turn or change for the 24% unemployed but the unemployment figures have decreased slightly as the economy is showing one of the fastest growth rates in Europe.
No change for those who have employment in on-line businesses,secure professional jobs or well-paid contracted skilled jobs although unemployment in the construction industry is still higher than average.
No change for the wealthy who will always do alright, thank you, whatever.
A change for the better for retired British immigrants who have seen the £ sterling strengthen against the euro and inflation at a low if not negative rate riving prices down.
No real change for British immigrants who need secure employment at living wage rates ad reasonable hours.
So whether things here are 'turning around' depends very much on what is expected, one's skills or profession and one's choice of location.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

alborino said:


> But there is hope. My brother-in-law is sitting in a Madrid polling station. The people ensuring there are enough list slips are having to keep topping up the Podemos pile.
> 
> This is a workers area with high unemployment but even in an area where podemos would expect to kick PSOE it is surprising them. Just hope in other areas it is going as well.
> 
> So I guess give Spain 5 years and there may be light at the end of the tunnel. Hope that is not too late for you. But as Lynn says at the moment while in some areas there are a few jobs appearing most are so low paid, slave hours and temporary it cannot be a basis to return if you need work.


Could you explain how Podemos or indeed any left Party will create jobs sufficiently to reduce the unemployment figure in five years?
Spending more public money may create a few jobs but 'public money' is the people's money, taxpayer's money. Plus public sector jobs are not net contributors to the economy.

The only real way for the economy to improve is through the expansion of the private sector which alone can create jobs and tax revenue thus funding the public sector.

No Party has a complete set of economic proposals which would encourage expansion in the private sector. PSOE's proposals to reform the labour laws are premature. The economy can't sustain the lack of flexibility. Podemos is certainly the Party of change....it has totally changed its economic and social policies on which it fought the Euro elections barely a year ago. Added to which, few businesses would surely wish to expand or set up in areas where the revolutionary socialist wing of Podemos is predominant. PP pins its faith on a neo-liberal free market policy which has failed in every country it has been applied.

The moral of all the above is that no-one should even consider which Party may be in power when thinking of moving to Spain. I predict a narrow win for the ruling PP in November - I hope I'm wrong - but as no Party has any control over the economy it's really of little real importance who wins.
The financial institutions will remain as the chief string pullers. As always.


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> Could you explain how Podemos or indeed any left Party will create jobs sufficiently to reduce the unemployment figure in five years?


I fully agree with you the PSOE will not create much in 5 or 10 years. Just look at their track record.

On Podemos they aren't going to storm to power with a majority in Spain. Only people justifying their own failures who want to blame the electorate and a few desperate frustrated hopefuls even suggest that. But what they will do is make it a lot harder for the established parties to keep playing their inept corrupt game with their only agenda being to maintain power at all cost.

In a coalition or minority situation more open talking has to be done. More eyes and ears prevent the schemers from manipulating the system. Extremes are curtailed. 

And remember podemos is not the only option open to the Spanish. Although I appreciate they are likely to do significant damage to PSOE.

Yes it will take sometime to let the Spanish people realise that to continue as in the past is not the way forward. And for many many of them who have become as corrupt as the parties they vote for it will be a struggle. But to be fair to them they had years of Franco followed by two dominant political parties who delivered zero long term benefits, the Catholic church and a lovely Royal family. Not a lot of hope with that mix 

However in response to your direct question, and should as you seem to predict Podemos storm to power, it is just possible that they will do something about the insanity that is the Spanish autonomo. That would create jobs and increase tax revenue. I understand why the PP don't want to change it but what the motives of the PSOE are are way beyond me


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

alborino said:


> I fully agree with you the PSOE will not create much in 5 or 10 years. Just look at their track record.
> 
> On Podemos they aren't going to storm to power with a majority in Spain. Only people justifying their own failures who want to blame the electorate and a few desperate frustrated hopefuls even suggest that. But what they will do is make it a lot harder for the established parties to keep playing their inept corrupt game with their only agenda being to maintain power at all cost.
> 
> ...


Well, we know Podemos won't storm to power...but they might help PP to maintain power.
Yes, autonomo needs reform but that in itself is a drop in the ocean. What's needed isn't a plethora of one-man bands but companies prepared to invest in skills and training as well as create well-paid jobs, companies that will put 'real' money into the economy.
As I understand from their website which has detailed policy proposals, PSOE too have plans to reform not only autonomo but the whole tax system. Your Spanish is surely better than mine so you can check it out.
I'm not happy with PSOE's proposals to rescind the labour law reforms. Employers need the flexibility to hire and fire at least until the economy is stronger. You will understand, as an employer, that there are times when you need to lose a worker or close your business. Redundancy terms here are far too generous.
I don't see PSOE's track record as that dire, tbh. They didn't create the crisis and until unemployment soared they kept the debt to one of the lowest GDP ratios in Europe. The real culprit was the Aznar Government which by freeing up land for development caused the construction boom and we all know what happened to that.
The Spanish people were obviously happy with PSOE as they elected them more than once.
My main point is in response to the OP and your post of two or three back that no-one should pin their hopes on any Party to turn Spain around, certainly not Podemos.
Iglesias had a meeting with IMF officials to explain the current economic policies. According to the WSJ the officials were not impressed, neither were they with the Cs team they also met.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Turning the corner, I think so but not as rapidly as some claim. I read a few days ago that desahucios were up around 2% in Malaga. Neither do I see property sales taking off in areas we know. yes some are buying but not as busy as the estate agent led articles claim. It is a very delicate situation throughout Europe and could go either way. It is incestuous, one country can drag down the others.


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## xolo (May 25, 2014)

My limited understanding is that Podemos took in a lot of young people. And on the other side let's not forget Ciudadanos. I notice that the new parties took people further to the left and the right, not toward the middle. New parties in themselves are a novel occurrence in Spain. A sign of real frustration and, unfortunately, there might not be a political solution, not an easy one anyway.


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

más chueco que la fayuca said:


> My limited understanding is that Podemos took in a lot of young people. And on the other side let's not forget Ciudadanos. I notice that the new parties took people further to the left and the right, not toward the middle. New parties in themselves are a novel occurrence in Spain. A sign of real frustration and, unfortunately, there might not be a political solution, not an easy one anyway.


Yes. I think recognising how spanish society needs to change as well as politics is very important. I'm still amazed that several in my spanish family treat breaking the law as an ok thing to do. They can justify it easily. And they do it very openly without any comeback. But they are not of the 'criminal classes' - just normal folk. They see the type of crime they commit being just part of normal life.

A long a difficult road ahead


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

alborino said:


> Yes. I think recognising how spanish society needs to change as well as politics is very important. I'm still amazed that several in my spanish family treat breaking the law as an ok thing to do. They can justify it easily. And they do it very openly without any comeback. But they are not of the 'criminal classes' - just normal folk. They see the type of crime they commit being just part of normal life.
> 
> A long a difficult road ahead


That attitude is a real problem. It's cultural and as I've said is found in all post-totalitarian countries. Lack of civil society and trust breeds that sort of informal economy and ultimately informal society. I've no idea how that culture can be overcome as in some way or another nearly everyone benefits from it. As you so rightly say, it's seen as part of 'normal life' by otherwise moral, upright citizens.

In response to a post about young people being attracted to parties outside the mainstream...it amuses me when people seem to think this is a new phenomenum that will 'change' Spanish or any society. This has always been the case. Think about Byron and the attitude of many of his contemporaries to the Greek war of independence in the nineteenth century...'Bliss it was to be alive but to be young was heaven itself!' or words to that effect. The young have revolted against their elders since the dawn of recorded history, usually to scant effect. The Nazi and Communist revolutions emphasised their 'youthfulness'.

In my twenties I grew impatient with established politics so became a card-carrying member of the Communist Party of Great Britain. I was an activist in the anti-Vietnam war campaign, the peace movement, anti-racism....you name it, I was in it!! I sat down in Trafalgar Square, took part in occupations of university buildings, marched, waved banners...my poor son had placards attached to his pram when he was taken along on demos. (He wearily recalls these events).

We believed we could change things for the better. We didn't. Most of us changed our radical views as we experienced life, settled down with families or, as was the case with many of the ultra-lefties, got well-paid careers.

I said all this four years ago when some folks got carried away with the 15M protests and was called cynical. That is a fair description. I had seen it all before. The fact is that the system is too strong to be overthrown by a relative handful of disaffected people. You have to get into the system to change it and that requires political skills, not street chanting.

The only truly effective popular revolutions were those in Central and Eastern Europe that toppled socialism. They did so against total state control of the media and massive repression by the forces of state security. They triumphed because the mass of people, old, young, middle-aged, had simply had enough of the system.
I was in Prague in 1989 and sensed the pressure for change, although surprised it came so suddenly. Yes, it was sparked by a student protest but it was supported by 99% of ordinary working people.
There is no similar situation in Spain. PP still had a majority of the popular vote, Podemos and allies a mere 12%.

I wonder if Baldy would agree with the main point I'm making....he too has lived through these times.


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## Gazeebo (Jan 23, 2015)

Andy&vicky said:


> Thank you all for your help and advice. I'm visiting friends in spain in July so will be able to see for myself what it's like but I'm guess no change since I was there in 2013.


Just a thought - could you move within Britain to an area that is a bit more positive, and work towards moving to Spain in the future. At least then you would have something to aim for.

Hope you are successful, whatever.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> That attitude is a real problem. It's cultural and as I've said is found in all post-totalitarian countries. Lack of civil society and trust breeds that sort of informal economy and ultimately informal society. I've no idea how that culture can be overcome as in some way or another nearly everyone benefits from it. As you so rightly say, it's seen as part of 'normal life' by otherwise moral, upright citizens.


Dont you think that attitude has become more prevalent in all countries (in our own country certainly) in recent decades? This morning I'm reading press stories about the former Chief Executive of a Welsh NHS Trust who has upped sticks and moved into her son's house in London so that she can get certain drug treatment for her cancer which NHS Wales will not pay for but NHS England will. As Alboriño says, people feel they can justify such cheating for a myriad of reasons, but cheating to get around the rules and get something they wouldn't be entitled to if they told the truth is seemingly commonplace these days. How many stories have we seen about people being prosecuted for claiming disability benefit for years on end, having lied about the severity of their health problems, or other kinds of benefit fraud such as claiming at multiple addresses or as a single person when in fact they have a partner living with them? They are often people who have been regarded as nice, middle class "pillars of the community". Insurance scams such as staging deliberate accidents or falsely inflating claims are rife, which only means higher premiums for everybody. 

I'm often looked at as though I am a lunatic if I have a conversation about such matters, and am obviously out of step with mainstream thinking about it, because the general feeling seems to be that everybody should get away with as much as they possibly can (except, of course, people they don't like who they think should be entitled to nothing) and if you don't you are somehow stupid.


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## el romeral (May 8, 2012)

I have always believed the official jobless figures for Spain are nowhere near the reality and are way too high. So many Spaniards are working black whilst feeling entitled to claim unemployment benefit for as long as they can. There is perhaps a tendency to believe it is only high profile politicians and maybe the odd actor or two who abuse the system but, quite surely, this is done routinely at all levels in society. They can't help it and the systems in place are too weak and incomplete to prevent it.

Of course if one were to believe what is churned out on here by a voiciferous minority, one would be inclined to believe it is only the UK "immigrants" in Spain who break the law and abuse said systems :lol::lol:.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

alborino said:


> Yes. I think recognising how spanish society needs to change as well as politics is very important. I'm still amazed that several in my spanish family treat breaking the law as an ok thing to do. They can justify it easily. And they do it very openly without any comeback. But they are not of the 'criminal classes' - just normal folk. They see the type of crime they commit being just part of normal life.
> 
> A long a difficult road ahead


But is this a case of choosing which laws it's ok to break?

The vast majority of people I know break the law. They speed in their cars. Bus drivers do it and almost every taxi driver does it.

But in the UK, people seem to think it's ok.

So it's a problem closer to home too.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

el romeral said:


> I have always believed the official jobless figures for Spain are nowhere near the reality and are way too high. So many Spaniards are working black whilst feeling entitled to claim unemployment benefit for as long as they can. There is perhaps a tendency to believe it is only high profile politicians and maybe the odd actor or two who abuse the system but, quite surely, this is done routinely at all levels in society. They can't help it and the systems in place are too weak and incomplete to prevent it.
> 
> Of course if one were to believe what is churned out on here by a voiciferous minority, one would be inclined to believe it is only the UK "immigrants" in Spain who break the law and abuse said systems :lol::lol:.


I agree with you, actually. As per my post above, I believe cheating and fraud is endemic in today's society - everywhere. The only way to combat it is by putting more money into investigators and systems to crack down on it (just yesterday I read an article about the Greeks now investigating middle class professionals for tax fraud, citing an architect, a lawyer and a businessman who had undeclared fortunes running into millions, over €10M in the case of the architect) and harsh penalties for those who are caught. Confiscate their assets (houses, cars, etc) to help pay back what they stole, and if their families suffer because of it, that's justice and is the only way to perhaps make people think twice about doing it.

Of course, we are all then subject to the same strict rules which a lot of people object to as they feel they are intrusive, but personally I don't mind. If I have nothing to hide, then I have nothing to fear.

It is certainly not only the UK immigrants who commit this kind of fraud in Spain (just in this morning's paper there is yet another case of several people being arrested in Andalucia for suspected embezzlement of public funds intended for training courses for the unemployed) but we have to recognise that we are by no means all pure as the driven snow, either.

Here's the latest embezzlement story relating to the training courses, btw - funds intended to help unemployed people in some of the poorest areas of Andalucia stolen by public servants. Absolutely disgraceful.

http://politica.elpais.com/politica/2015/06/08/actualidad/1433752117_294581.html


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

The rot starts from the top. Most people won't bother defrauding the taxman of their twenty quid or euro per week when they read the biggies getting away with millions.

BTW. I pay my taxes because I am not willing to take the risk not from any moral point of view.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

For a prime example of how endemic fraud and corruption is, we only have to look at FIFA, and everybody has known it has been going on for years.

I really like the American Chief Prosecutor, Loretta Lynch. We could do with a few hundred more like her.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I see Cristiano Ronaldo's mother was stopped at Barajas airport and found to be carrying €55,000 in cash - €45,000 of which was confiscated until she can prove where the money came from (answers on a postcard, please) and pay the fine. Even that pales into insignificance beside the Chinese citizen stopped a few weeks earlier with €850,000 in cash.


'Cazan' a la madre de Cristiano Ronaldo, Dolores Aveiro, con 55.000 euros en Barajas | Madrid | EL MUNDO


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Isobella said:


> The rot starts from the top. Most people won't bother defrauding the taxman of their twenty quid or euro per week when they read the biggies getting away with millions.
> 
> BTW. I pay my taxes because I am not willing to take the risk not from any moral point of view.


The reason I don't commit most non-violent crimes is probably 50/50 ....50% moral restraint and 50% being caught.
I do believe though that paying taxes due benefits all an is therefore an undoubed moral 'good'.


Agree 100% with Lynn. Public morality ain't what it used to be. Or is it merely that the media can ferret out those inconvenient truths to an extent they couldn't fifty years ago?
I have never held to what I see as the overly-optimistic view that human nature will 'improve' as society achieves more 'progressive' ideals.
As my Czech friend pointed out, for forty years in their country,socialism strove to produce 'better' people....
It could be said it merely brought out the worst sides of human nature.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Isobella said:


> The rot starts from the top. Most people won't bother defrauding the taxman of their twenty quid or euro per week when they read the biggies getting away with millions.
> 
> BTW. I pay my taxes because I am not willing to take the risk not from any moral point of view.


The reason I don't commit most non-violent crimes is probably 50/50 ....50% moral restraint and 50% being caught.
I do believe though that paying taxes due benefits all an is therefore an undoubted moral 'good'.


Agree 100% with Lynn. Public morality ain't what it used to be. Or is it merely that the media can ferret out those inconvenient truths to an extent they couldn't fifty years ago?
I have never held to what I see as the overly-optimistic view that human nature will 'improve' as society achieves more 'progressive' ideals.
As my Czech friend pointed out, for forty years in their country,socialism strove to produce 'better' people....
It could be said it merely brought out the worst sides of human nature.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

el romeral said:


> I have always believed the official jobless figures for Spain are nowhere near the reality and are way too high. So many Spaniards are working black whilst feeling entitled to claim unemployment benefit for as long as they can. There is perhaps a tendency to believe it is only high profile politicians and maybe the odd actor or two who abuse the system but, quite surely, this is done routinely at all levels in society. They can't help it and the systems in place are too weak and incomplete to prevent it.
> 
> Of course if one were to believe what is churned out on here by a voiciferous minority, one would be inclined to believe it is only the UK "immigrants" in Spain who break the law and abuse said systems :lol::lol:.


The jobless figures may well be less, but even if they went down a million, or even two they'd still be horrific!
Don't forget it's not so easy to get unemployment benefit here. If you haven't paid into the system or you haven't paid enough into the system you won't get anything out so all those ninis (NEETs) and people on 3 month contracts do not get dole and that's why a fair few are working and getting paid (probably a misery) under the table


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## xolo (May 25, 2014)

Oh God Alboriño, that's so true. (I had to write the name of the wine correctly! I don't know if it is a region or a town or something else, but it's a damn good wine that I got to know well in Santiago)


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I can't say I agree with the IMF's latest recommendations as to how Spain should turn the corner - raising IVA and introducing (more) co-payments for health and education would only serve to reduce the amount of money people have to spend and therefore hold back growth, surely? 


El FMI eleva al 3,1% el crecimiento para 2015 y pide al nuevo gobierno que no anule la reforma laboral | Econom?a | EL MUNDO


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> I can't say I agree with the IMF's latest recommendations as to how Spain should turn the corner - raising IVA and introducing (more) co-payments for health and education would only serve to reduce the amount of money people have to spend and therefore hold back growth, surely?
> 
> 
> El FMI eleva al 3,1% el crecimiento para 2015 y pide al nuevo gobierno que no anule la reforma laboral | Econom?a | EL MUNDO


 They get paid, and very generously so, to come up with that craaap!??
Unbelievable


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> They get paid, and very generously so, to come up with that craaap!??
> Unbelievable


Why unbelievable? It's not really crap. If the economy is growing, it's growing. And it is. What should be asked is to whom the proceeds of this growth is being directed.
As for labour reforms...I've said why I think that they should not be scrapped until the economy is stronger. There are times when businesses with diminished order books simply can't afford to keep workers and the redundancy pay in Spain is simply unaffordable for most PYMEs. It's a case of lose one worker or close down. Of course a strong case should have to be made before anyone is 'let go'. 
Another reason for such forecasts is that they may serve to increase business and customer confidence. Without confidence businesses won't invest and customers won't spend.
It's no exaggeration to say that the free market economy is one big confidence trick, built on smoke and mirrors.

P.S. But I agree with Lynn in that the more money people have to spend, the more profit for business, the more tax revenue for the government.
In theory. But we know that over 30% tax goes unpaid.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> They get paid, and very generously so, to come up with that craaap!??
> Unbelievable


I must admit, that's what I thought. Whatever they "recommend" always seems to involve making people poorer and employment more precarious, and just like these latest bright ideas, impact disproportionately on the poorest people anyway. That's one thing I have to give Rajoy credit for, he resisted asking for a full scale bailout which would have given these people more control, and ignored their urging to put up IVA after the last elections.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> I must admit, that's what I thought. Whatever they "recommend" always seems to involve making people poorer and employment more precarious, and just like these latest bright ideas, impact disproportionately on the poorest people anyway. That's one thing I have to give Rajoy credit for, he resisted asking for a full scale bailout which would have given these people more control, and ignored their urging to put up IVA after the last elections.


Putting up IVA and other charges is wrong and counter-productive, agreed. But scrapping the labour laws at this stage will succeed only in making employment more precarious and dissuade PYMEs from taking on employees on permanent contracts.

The only way to help the poor is to reinvigorate the economy, increase productivity and encourage investment.
Get the economy on its feet or talk of social justice will be....talk.


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

más chueco que la fayuca said:


> Oh God Alboriño, that's so true. (I had to write the name of the wine correctly! I don't know if it is a region or a town or something else, but it's a damn good wine that I got to know well in Santiago)


más chueco que la fayuca pure laziness on my part. Can't be bothered to keep loading spanish keyboards or remembering odd key combinations. I only remember the @ key combo as it is sort of vital in these email days 

Alboriño is a grape grown in northern Portugal and Galicia. The wine served cold is just heavenly (as you have discovered in lovely Santiago) . I drink gallons of it. It however originated in Alsace and is related to Riesling. 

It is thought monks bought it with them in the 12 century. Always seems odd to me that religious types spread alcohol through the world 

Sorry :focus:


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> The only way to help the poor is to reinvigorate the economy, increase productivity and encourage investment.


Ignoring the comment at the end of this post
*encourage investment by investing yourself....*
Unless there is investment by Spanish businesses and government the growth will continue to slow and shakey. Just yesterday I was listening to something about Apple and how Steve Jobs, when called back by Apple, realised that instead of cuts what the company needed was investment and one thing that came out of that was the ipad and itunes. Pretty successful outcome I'd say
I asked my students in HP this morning, do you feel like the government is investing in technology?
Answer - no
I asked my students in a pharmaceutical company, do you feel the government is investing in R&D in this area?
Answer - no
etc etc

How can cuts in education be right? How can cuts in Health be right? How, How, How????


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Andy&vicky said:


> Thank you all for your help and advice. I'm visiting friends in spain in July so will be able to see for myself what it's like but I'm guess no change since I was there in 2013.


If you are struggling in the UK you'll probably struggle here too.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Andy&vicky said:


> Thank you all for your help and advice. I'm visiting friends in spain in July so will be able to see for myself what it's like but I'm guess no change since I was there in 2013.


I don't think much has changed since 2013. I know that tourism is up lately. I've seen a few articles about how much passenger numbers have increased in Alicante airport over the past couple of years, and some of the resorts in the Alicante-Valencia region have been reporting very high occupancy rates in hotels. And that's how it has appeared to me on my travels.

So if you are in the kind of work that relies on tourism, maybe things are moving in the right direction.

But, not all tourists are foreigners and many Spanish people are living through tough times. I have a few Spanish friends from all over the country and all, although in work, have not seen growth in pay and don't feel particularly secure in their work, and that affects willingness to spend. So, tourism from locals is still depressed, I think.

But don't rush out, I agree with the previous poster, if you are struggling in the UK you'll probably struggle here (although when you said you were struggling it wasn't clear what with - maybe it's not with work).


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Ignoring the comment at the end of this post
> *encourage investment by investing yourself....*
> Unless there is investment by Spanish businesses and government the growth will continue to slow and shakey. Just yesterday I was listening to something about Apple and how Steve Jobs, when called back by Apple, realised that instead of cuts what the company needed was investment and one thing that came out of that was the ipad and itunes. Pretty successful outcome I'd say
> I asked my students in HP this morning, do you feel like the government is investing in technology?
> ...


Cuts in education can NEVER be justified. Education and skills training are the surest route out of poverty, as is evidenced by the success of the 'tiger' economies that invested heavily in skills training and education , especially in IT.
Cuts in health....well, that's more difficult. As people live longer, expectations grow and the cost of essential technology increases, the cost of health care could be like a tap always fully turned on. Maybe more emphasis on prevention, improving the general standard of public health, looking for efficiency savings...but at the end of the day, if the public wants a first- class 'free' health service, it has to be prepared to fund it, one way or another.
Investing....investment has to be applied in a way that gives returns. Too vague and generalised to ask people if they think the government should invest in technology or pharma. What technology do we consider gives a return in social as well as financial value? Should research in the pharma industry be steered more towards producing cheaper drugs that can cure or prevent the diseases of the developing world or be focused on helping seventy-year-olds get erections?
If you ask these questions in more specific terms you will surely get answers. 'Technology' covers a wide field from nuclear bombs to organ transplants. 'Pharma' ditto.
As for investment....yes, we invest in Spain and other countries via our portfolios. But that's a drop in the ocean. Huge sums will be needed to kick-start the economy and it would be better if they didn't come from the taxpayer.

Interestingly, the IMF gets a lot of stick and rightly so in most cases. However....Ireland and Portugal took the IMF medicine, went through hard times but have come through. After Greece began to implement its austerity measures from 2009 the economy picked up and began to show a primary surplus until Syriza took over and put the economy in reverse.
There's no doubt that people went through and are going through hard times, some of them. But no Party in Spain or the UK has come up with an alternative that has been acceptable to the electorate and to do anything about helping the poor, bringing in measures of 'social justice' you have to have your hands on the levers of such power as remains in the hands of national governments.
Which isn't much, as Greece is finding out.


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## Sirtravelot (Jul 20, 2011)

Any news on the real-estate market?

We've seen three houses sell on our street all within a month.


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## el pescador (Mar 14, 2013)

We have had two business closed... bars.
But opening up we have had.....

un cafe
un salon.
2 gestorias.
a lazer treatment clinic of some kind.
a kebab shop (and they don't do them like they do at home ...

Still plenty of room to grow but things do look like they are improving slowly.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

In Javea it's doing very well. 

A neighbour of mine sold her apartment a month or so ago after turning down 3 offers in 2 months. She took the 4th and it was very close to asking price.

There's a new large estate agent office opening up and another smaller one. Frankly, it's the last thing Javea needs, there are dozens already. But, it's a sign that things are moving.


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## Sirtravelot (Jul 20, 2011)

Horlics said:


> In Javea it's doing very well.
> 
> A neighbour of mine sold her apartment a month or so ago after turning down 3 offers in 2 months. She took the 4th and it was very close to asking price.
> 
> There's a new large estate agent office opening up and another smaller one. Frankly, it's the last thing Javea needs, there are dozens already. But, it's a sign that things are moving.



They opened a new estate agent here as well. Oy vey!

...and 2 new restaurants, with a new one opening.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Cuts in education can NEVER be justified. Education and skills training are the surest route out of poverty, as is evidenced by the success of the 'tiger' economies that invested heavily in skills training and education , especially in IT.
> Cuts in health....well, that's more difficult. As people live longer, expectations grow and the cost of essential technology increases, the cost of health care could be like a tap always fully turned on. Maybe more emphasis on prevention, improving the general standard of public health, looking for efficiency savings...but at the end of the day, if the public wants a first- class 'free' health service, it has to be prepared to fund it, one way or another.
> Investing....investment has to be applied in a way that gives returns. Too vague and generalised to ask people if they think the government should invest in technology or pharma. What technology do we consider gives a return in social as well as financial value? Should research in the pharma industry be steered more towards producing cheaper drugs that can cure or prevent the diseases of the developing world or be focused on helping seventy-year-olds get erections?
> If you ask these questions in more specific terms you will surely get answers. 'Technology' covers a wide field from nuclear bombs to organ transplants. 'Pharma' ditto.
> ...


Right at the beginning of the crisis I'm sure there was a lot of superfluous crap that could have been cut from education and health budgets. Things like every secondary school producing its own diary for each child, school trips that had no connection with the syllabus, and their equivalents in the health sector. Most people say the expense of these things is not great enough to warrant their being cut. I say every little helps... However, those things weren't cut. They went straight for the jugular and cut people and increased hours and responsibilities of those who were left. If people were in abundance to start with it may have worked, but in these 2 sectors they weren't, so they cut understaffed industries to make them severely understaffed. I don't think the benefits of cutting education or health will outweigh the possible harm that could be done.

When I asked people I know about investment in technology or pharmaceuticals I don't know enough about it to identify areas that need investment, but they do. I don't need to ask about specifics because they can take that question and apply it to their fields and they tell me that No they are Not receiving investment. (The people in HP are not employed by HP)
Lastly when I said 

*encourage investment by investing yourself...*

I didn't mean you, or indeed anybody personally, I meant the government. Sorry, that wasn't clear


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Sirtravelot said:


> Any news on the real-estate market?
> 
> We've seen three houses sell on our street all within a month.


I have seen new estate agents offices in the town where I live, in Bilbao and in Madrid. Bit by bit they're coming back. 
I find it quite scary actually.


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I have seen new estate agents offices in the town where I live, in Bilbao and in Madrid. Bit by bit they're coming back.
> I find it quite scary actually.


We are still receiving Cadiz region house offers falling week by week. So we are in no hurry. But that of course doesn't necessarily imply that there is less activity.

Good news is that one of five estate agents we visited in Puerto de Santa Maria is sending us details and those details relate to our requirements. I really hope that we get the opportunity to deal with them as they are the only one that has shown any enthusiasm


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

el pescador said:


> We have had two business closed... bars.
> But opening up we have had.....
> 
> un cafe
> ...


Hmmm. I've seen a couple of estate agencies open up recently but other stuff is still closing down. The latest victim is a well established gifty kind of shop. I received an email about it's closing down sale yesterday


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I have seen new estate agents offices in the town where I live, in Bilbao and in Madrid. Bit by bit they're coming back.
> I find it quite scary actually.


I do too. A boom is the last thing Spain needs. Steady long-term growth, yes. A boom, no.

But I just can't see that happening.


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## Leper (May 12, 2010)

Sirtravelot said:


> Any news on the real-estate market?
> 
> We've seen three houses sell on our street all within a month.





Sirtravelot said:


> Any news on the real-estate market?
> 
> We've seen three houses sell on our street all within a month.


My enquiries in Mojacar Playa show that on prices of mid 2014 the price of good located property has risen by between 2% and 3% in 2015.

No rise in price has taken place for other property.

Some shops/restaurants/pubs continue to close although at a slower pace than before.

At last things seem to be progressing, but we will never see anything like the boom of 9 years ago.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Ah yes, the boom of 9 years ago.

I was watching an old Place In The Sun yesterday. A couple were deciding between Wales and Cape Verde. They were retiring and wanted the home to spend the rest of their lives in.

They went to Cape Verde and bought 3 houses!

I hope we never see those days again.


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## tarot650 (Sep 30, 2007)

Leper,have to agree with you my friend the boom years were just sheer,utter madness.Who the heck were they expecting to sell all the builds to.Can't say about other area's in Spain but certainly know about the C.D.S.when you see the half finished properties it's just a crying shame,heartbreaking.Couple of pictures here.First one English couple bought a house on the right hand side and had spectacular views over to the lakes.We got to know them as the wife did some translating for them.The second picture is what was built opposite them a couple of years later and took away all their fantastic views.Now when I see these completely finished then I will say Spain is turning a corner and after all the years me and the wife have lived here it really is heartbreaking to see it as it is today.Also just to say these houses are in a little hamlet of roughly a hundred people so who were they going to sell them to god alone knows.


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## tarot650 (Sep 30, 2007)

Just to say the English couple have been trying to sell the house for ages but who the hell is going to buy it with this lot in front of it.Do I honestly know what Spain should do to get back on track,no and the way things are I don't think anybody else does and like I said it's just absolutely heartbreaking.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Anybody buying now should be asking themselves, "am I going to be able to shift this when I need to sell it". 

Sadly, there are a lot of people in the position you describe soulboy.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Horlics said:


> Anybody buying now should be asking themselves, "am I going to be able to shift this when I need to sell it".
> 
> Sadly, there are a lot of people in the position you describe soulboy.


& in 98% of cases the answer would be no.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> & in 98% of cases the answer would be no.


Which was clearly the case even in 2008 which was precisely why we kept our cash securely invested and rented. You didn't need to have lived in Spain for sixty years, a quick hour's drive round showed that supply was set to outstrip demand.
Even without the added effects of the crisis, there would have been a down turn in construction.


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