# Espanoles en el Mundo.



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

29,910 from Spain in 2012 went to Germany. German immigration was 1,081,000 last years !!!
from here.

Germany sees surge in immigration from Spain


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> 29,910 from Spain in 2012 went to Germany. German immigration was 1,081,000 last years !!!
> from here.
> 
> Germany sees surge in immigration from Spain


How can Germany cope with all that immigration!?


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## Guest (May 8, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> How can Germany cope with all that immigration!?


I have a spanish friend who's husband is German and a master carpenter. Last year they moved to Germany from Asturias because he could not find enough work here. Now in Germany he finds himself competing for work with recent immigrants who will work for lower than previously accepted standard wages. They now live in a substandard apartment in order to survive. Immigration seems to being used to drive down wages and increase profits.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mysticsmick said:


> I have a spanish friend who's husband is German and a master carpenter. Last year they moved to Germany from Asturias because he could not find enough work here. Now in Germany he finds himself competing for work with recent immigrants who will work for lower than previously accepted standard wages. They now live in a substandard apartment in order to survive. Immigration seems to being used to drive down wages and increase profits.


I'm all for immigration, after all I'm an immigrant myself, but...


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## Sirtravelot (Jul 20, 2011)

mysticsmick said:


> I have a spanish friend who's husband is German and a master carpenter. Last year they moved to Germany from Asturias because he could not find enough work here. Now in Germany he finds himself competing for work with recent immigrants who will work for lower than previously accepted standard wages. They now live in a substandard apartment in order to survive. Immigration seems to being used to drive down wages and increase profits.


YES.

Apparently, Germany has a serious lack of engineers. At least that is what they tell you on the news. If you ask German engineers however, they'll tell you this whole "lack of engineers" propaganda is simply to increased supply over demand.

I feel very sorry for all these Spaniards and Greeks who are being forced to move.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

It is the sheer amount who are leaving though, & you cannot blame them !
The Uk is saying they issued 59k+ National insurance numbers to Spaniards alone in the 6 months to end of march. The previous years influx was around 100k . :

Then you have ones that have gone to other countries. Many will make lives for themselves in these other countries ,like in the past where many went to France & Germany ,never to return until they are retired ! 
In this case though very many are highly skilled , paid for by the Spanish system, & now giving benefit & income to other countries. 

Surely someone in the Spanish government can come up with a means of employing some of these people at least to give Spain some hope of recovery for the future ?

I must admit I was amazed when I first read the article about the sheer number of legal immigrants . Makes you wonder how long they can allow it to go on ?


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

gus-lopez said:


> Surely someone in the Spanish government can come up with a means of employing some of these people at least to give Spain some hope of recovery for the future ?


See, this is what frightens me. The government seems to be absolutely unconcerned with the massive brain drain.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

elenetxu said:


> See, this is what frightens me. The government seems to be absolutely unconcerned with the massive brain drain.



Yes , I have to agree with you. They act as though everything is normal which is what is worrying! 
I am now of the opinion that they have no idea what to do & are merely making the right noises, saying what is wanted to be heard by the EU , whilst seeing out the term of government ! 
I hope I am wrong, but if not then it is another 4 years wasted & countless thousands of peoples lives turned to misery .
There has GOT to be investment ! It is the only way forward . Austerity & continual cuts only bring short-term relief before more need to be implemented & then you are in a continuing downward spiral. 

How can over 6 million unemployed, which is over 30% of the actual working population at present, be consigned to not contributing ? No wonder they are leaving !

As an aside I looked at the government site for employed/employer, self-employed contributions a couple of days ago. Well it is no wonder there is a 'black economy'. It is nonsensical. It defies belief !!

An employee pays 4.8% of his salary in social security contributions. There employer has to pay 35% .
A self-employed person pays 29.8% of a base amount giving a minimum contribution of around 273€.
Now imagine we have 2 electricians , one self-employed & one employed, & for the purpose of this example both are doing everything 100% legally.

They earn 3000€/month
The employed one pays 144€ in soc.sec. contributions; his employer has to pay 1050€.
The poor old self-employed one has to pay 894€ ! It is not going to happen & explains exactly why the majority of self-employed do not declare any more than the basic minimum, whilst still doing the work & earning the money; it just all goes in their pocket & the government get zilch.
It also explains why employers pay as little as possible ( normally50%) through the books & give the rest in cash. It reduces there soc. sec. payments. 

It could do with a radical overhaul to at least get people to pay more soc.sec. & tax, but even then it has gone on for so long that it will be very difficult to implement change & require a person with an absolute commitment to implement , enforce & collect the revenue, & for that they would be vilified at the start.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Gus for president!

I think I said it in another thread but it's been interesting to see how attitudes, at least towards IVA, have changed. 

We did some work a few years ago and the contractors always made mention of "with or without??" We just made some major purchases (if the government won't invest in the country, we will!) and the "with or without" conversation was not heard once. That, in my mind, is a good thing. Now, if everyone - especially the wealthy, the political class, and the "empresarios" - would get on board and do the same.


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> As an aside I looked at the government site for employed/employer, self-employed contributions a couple of days ago. Well it is no wonder there is a 'black economy'. It is nonsensical. It defies belief !!


I've been saying for years that the system here totally kills all entrepreneurial activity or ambition by the people.......and creates the black economy that so many (usually those with no experience of doing business here) regularly condemn.

If the government restructured things in a way that would give people an incentive to go legit (or just declare more income) the whole country would be better off for it.

But no.....they just hammer those people who are doing business legitimately to the point that everybody has to do black business just to survive.

And the sting in the tale is if you wanted to sell that business, then on paper it's only worth what you've actually declared.....which in most cases I would imagine is just the tip of the iceberg.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

XTreme said:


> If the government restructured things in a way that would give people an incentive to go legit (or just declare more income) the whole country would be better off for it.


Which brings me back to the point I made that I don't think they have the ability to do it ! They are marking time, & every one else will suffer for it.


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