# Appeal Help



## heartbroken (Sep 11, 2012)

So my fiance settlement visa was refused. We were misadvised as our immigration expert was not up to date with the new financial requirements (not so expert after all).

Refusal reasons:
"Your sponsor requires an annual salary of 18, 600. Your sponsor is in employment and earns an annual salary of 33, 500" (not kidding, it actually says that);
Not providing original bank statements and payslips;
Only providing 3 months payslips and bank statements.

So, we've decided to appeal with the originals and 6 months worth. Is it worth it?
We're appealing on these grounds:
"(k) Entry Clearance Officer or Secretary of State should normally refuse an application which does not provide the evidence specified in this Appendix. However, where document(s) have been submitted, but not as specified, and the Entry Clearance Officer or Secretary of State considers that, if the specified document(s) were submitted, it would result in a grant of leave, they should contact the applicant or their representative in writing or otherwise to request the document(s) be submitted within a reasonable timeframe. Examples of documents submitted not as specified include:

a) A document missing from a series, e.g. a bank statement;
b) A document in the wrong format; or
c) A document that is a copy rather than the original."

Does anyone know how long it will take? And if appealing is actually worth it?


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## cc9 (Oct 29, 2012)

Aah I am sure you are very disappointed. I am not an expert but surely if you have the evidence they say was missing an appeal would in theory be successful. It would also be much cheaper than making a new application.
Hopefully someone more experienced will be able to give you advice. Maybe you should entrust your appeal to an experienced solicitor.

I believe this was another harsh decision by UKBA but since joining this forum I have had my eyes opened to the harsh reality that is trying to relocate loved ones to the UK.

Best wishes with your appeal or your new application depending on what you decide. Even if it takes months or years it will be worth it in the long run.


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## mark_T (Nov 28, 2012)

I'm appealing for my wife's refusal and am going thru lawyers, and I think that is a better option for me than to appeal myself. 

I'm sure someone can confirm that 33k even under pre-July rules would he enough, the only mistake I guess is not providing more than 3months.

Whatever you decide to do(appeal or new), make sure that you show that you are putting money aside for the applicant.... Cause one of the reasons my wife was refused was that I (as the sponsor) don't manage my money properly, ie I spend it all!


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## heartbroken (Sep 11, 2012)

Hi,

To update, handed my appeal in yesterday. Now it's back to waiting. Thankfully we're meeting in Ireland for Christmas and New Year so something to look forward to. But after that it's back to sitting around and waiting.

Hope all is going well, Mark T...


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## Burt888 (Jul 8, 2012)

What did you include in your appeal .... I thought it said somewhere no new information could be added... Who did the appeal the uk person or person applying for visa


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## heartbroken (Sep 11, 2012)

Well, we're appealing under the section mentioned in the first post - so it's not new info but just according to the specifications they wanted.

And I did the appeal (applying for visa). Although, it's not so much 'doing' the appeal - just filled in the appeal form and posted it (with the new docs).


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## Burt888 (Jul 8, 2012)

So are you hoping it will get overturned before it goes to appeal at court


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## heartbroken (Sep 11, 2012)

I am hoping for that! That would be fantastic! But if it goes to the court (which will take ages!) we have a pretty strong case.


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## Burt888 (Jul 8, 2012)

I'm hoping for same thing but if goes to court then ok I just need them to consider savings with my salary then will be fine your case seems even more straight forward just needed the extra evidence


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## heartbroken (Sep 11, 2012)

Do you have any idea how long it will take if they over turn the decision without a hearing?


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## Burt888 (Jul 8, 2012)

No idea but lots quicker than going to court


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## mark_T (Nov 28, 2012)

heartbroken said:


> Hi,
> 
> To update, handed my appeal in yesterday. Now it's back to waiting. Thankfully we're meeting in Ireland for Christmas and New Year so something to look forward to. But after that it's back to sitting around and waiting.
> 
> Hope all is going well, Mark T...


Thanks HB. Meeting in Ireland, now that's a good idea, I might have to look into that, I.e. Meeting my wife in another country rather while the appeal is going on. But I am going over to india to be with my wife.... Even tho it means spending quote a lot of money. 

Good luck with your appeal, hope it works out for you as well


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## Burt888 (Jul 8, 2012)

How easy was it for you to get visa to India which kind of visa did you apply for how long did it take etc


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## mark_T (Nov 28, 2012)

Burt888 said:


> How easy was it for you to get visa to India which kind of visa did you apply for how long did it take etc


getting visa to India is not that painful a process, but it will take around 3 days. 
you can get a visitor's visa for 3, 6, or 12 months. longer if necessary. 

i've got a Person of Indian Origin card so i can go to india without the need of a visa.


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## heartbroken (Sep 11, 2012)

Just had a look around and found appeal times.

UK Border Agency | Appeals - visas and entry clearance

Really damn frustrating again. It seems that it takes 90 working days to decide on the original decision. Another 3 months. I might as well have sent in a new application.


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## heartbroken (Sep 11, 2012)

mark_T said:


> getting visa to India is not that painful a process, but it will take around 3 days.
> you can get a visitor's visa for 3, 6, or 12 months. longer if necessary.
> 
> i've got a Person of Indian Origin card so i can go to india without the need of a visa.


Ugh. Really wish the UK had 'of UK origin cards'. Then my fiancee and I wouldn't be in this mess!


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## mark_T (Nov 28, 2012)

Just reading the information on that is frustrating to say the least!!! 
I'm thinking I should have sent a new application as well!! 

Worst case scenario looks like it may be take f in years to get our other halves to join us in UK :-(


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## Burt888 (Jul 8, 2012)

That was the reason we did the second application thinking we had everything needed but they failed for same reason .... They didnt look at savings I included and consider them ... Our first visa refused in August but now looking should really have appealed that on old rules but we thought would be ok on new and now in same position 4 months later about £2000 worse off and solicitors aren't cheap and court will be even more expensive dont know what I will do obviously if I earned a lot of money I wouldn't have had problem in first place and also if I hadn't spent about £10000 this year on different visas and solicitors plane tickets etc I would have shortly had enough just in savings I'm thinking would be easier to leave everything here and go live in Pakistan but my solicitor tells me not to be stupid but I'm seeing it as the only option left


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## heartbroken (Sep 11, 2012)

I know exactly how you feel. I'm £3000 poorer and I have nothing to show for it. If we don't win this appeal we're going to just settle in Cape Town - which is a brilliant place but not what we wanted (family etc.). And to think that it will be because of copies and not that we fall short of the requirements. It seems to me they'd rather force British citizens and tax payers out for no reason (at least it will be so in our case).


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## 2farapart (Aug 18, 2011)

It's one issue on which UKBA is absolutely unmoving: *documents MUST be originals, not copies* - especially financial and identity papers. There is a small chance that an incidental 'copy page' can be accepted if it's part of a set and all other papers are originals - and there is a satisfactory explanation (as in pt1988's example where one bank statement page was missing, and the bank sent a 'copy' to replace it rather than a full-colour page). One page like this can easily be tallied both with statements before and after it, and corroborated with pay slips from that month too, so hopefully will present no issue. However, providing a full set of statements or pay slips as copies won't be accepted at all.

The problem is that copies can easily be made into very convincing forgeries. Only today on one of these UK Border Force TV programmes, a man tried to enter the UK with all his papers including bank statements. What concerned the Immigration Officer was not the appearance of the bank statements (they seemed fine), but the fact they showed a salaried income of 45,000 rupees per month, which didn't seem quite right. So, the Immigration Officer called the bank, giving the account number, name and address of the account holder etc, and the bank said that all these details were correct. However, when the Immigration Officer began to check individual transactions with the bank, including of course the large 45,000 rupee payments, they said no such transactions appeared in their records (they were total forgeries).

This is why UKBA insists on originals. Original documents often vary in paper weight and quality to standard-fare print paper, colours of logos etc look more true - and no doubt there's a whole myriad of other small tell-tale differences.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

And every visa centre has back-office staff specialising in forgery detection.


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## mark_T (Nov 28, 2012)

2farapart said:


> It's one issue on which UKBA is absolutely unmoving: documents MUST be originals, not copies - especially financial and identity papers. There is a small chance that an incidental 'copy page' can be accepted if it's part of a set and all other papers are originals - and there is a satisfactory explanation (as in pt1988's example where one bank statement page was missing, and the bank sent a 'copy' to replace it rather than a full-colour page). One page like this can easily be tallied both with statements before and after it, and corroborated with pay slips from that month too, so hopefully will present no issue. However, providing a full set of statements or pay slips as copies won't be accepted at all.
> 
> The problem is that copies can easily be made into very convincing forgeries. Only today on one of these UK Border Force TV programmes, a man tried to enter the UK with all his papers including bank statements. What concerned the Immigration Officer was not the appearance of the bank statements (they seemed fine), but the fact they showed a salaried income of 45,000 rupees per month, which didn't seem quite right. So, the Immigration Officer called the bank, giving the account number, name and address of the account holder etc, and the bank said that all these details were correct. However, when the Immigration Officer began to check individual transactions with the bank, including of course the large 45,000 rupee payments, they said no such transactions appeared in their records (they were total forgeries).
> 
> This is why UKBA insists on originals. Original documents often vary in paper weight and quality to standard-fare print paper, colours of logos etc look more true - and no doubt there's a whole myriad of other small tell-tale differences.


I know the programme you are talking about. And I also understand ukba have to be very strict in their investigation. But it still feels like they are trying to kick people out!


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## heartbroken (Sep 11, 2012)

2farapart said:


> It's one issue on which UKBA is absolutely unmoving: *documents MUST be originals, not copies* - especially financial and identity papers. There is a small chance that an incidental 'copy page' can be accepted if it's part of a set and all other papers are originals - and there is a satisfactory explanation (as in pt1988's example where one bank statement page was missing, and the bank sent a 'copy' to replace it rather than a full-colour page). One page like this can easily be tallied both with statements before and after it, and corroborated with pay slips from that month too, so hopefully will present no issue. However, providing a full set of statements or pay slips as copies won't be accepted at all.
> 
> The problem is that copies can easily be made into very convincing forgeries. Only today on one of these UK Border Force TV programmes, a man tried to enter the UK with all his papers including bank statements. What concerned the Immigration Officer was not the appearance of the bank statements (they seemed fine), but the fact they showed a salaried income of 45,000 rupees per month, which didn't seem quite right. So, the Immigration Officer called the bank, giving the account number, name and address of the account holder etc, and the bank said that all these details were correct. However, when the Immigration Officer began to check individual transactions with the bank, including of course the large 45,000 rupee payments, they said no such transactions appeared in their records (they were total forgeries).
> 
> This is why UKBA insists on originals. Original documents often vary in paper weight and quality to standard-fare print paper, colours of logos etc look more true - and no doubt there's a whole myriad of other small tell-tale differences.


I completely understand and agree. And I know we were in the wrong in sending copies (although we didn't know when we made the application) - we would absolutely have sent the originals. We just feel a little hardly done by that we were flat out refused instead of a request being sent for originals. But UKBA must have a reason for not and that's fine, we understand. It's just tough because it means we're forced be spend more time apart because of something that could easily have been remedied - and so it's difficult not to get emotional.


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## 2farapart (Aug 18, 2011)

I know - it's a truly awful situation I wouldn't wish on anyone, and really my post was just to urge anyone else thinking of throwing in some copies to please not take that risk. 

The one thing that is happening a lot of late (this last 3-4 weeks at least) is that UKBA IS flat-out refusing applications in situations where they previously would put your application on hold and request the missing documents. I suspect that pressure is on to clear down their backlogs, and an instantly rejected visa for rules not being followed to the letter IS a cleared case, whereas an application on hold is yet one more statistic weighted against UKBA's performance.

I wish you the very best of luck. If it really was as small as not providing original documents, at least it doesn't mean you didn't MEET the requirement - just didn't follow a rule. I hope your appeal is heard soon and you receive better news.


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## BronwynBean (Nov 20, 2012)

Heartbroken can i ask how long your first request for visas took? I have tried to do mine first time alone, and im hoping and praying i dont have issues as my hubby already leaving to start his new job over in the Uk.


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## heartbroken (Sep 11, 2012)

BronwynBean said:


> Heartbroken can i ask how long your first request for visas took? I have tried to do mine first time alone, and im hoping and praying i dont have issues as my hubby already leaving to start his new job over in the Uk.


My first one was 12 weeks. But the second and more recent was 8.


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## BronwynBean (Nov 20, 2012)

Thanks for letting me know. I did the online application on the 8th December and handed in the forms and supporting documentation in at Sandton on the 18th.


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## heartbroken (Sep 11, 2012)

No problem. That first one was over the rules change which apparently was a very bust time for UKBA so I don't think you'll have to wait that long. Hopefully they're quiet this time of year and you'll have your visa soon!


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## BronwynBean (Nov 20, 2012)

Thanks... We have applied category B app A, hubby(partner for 8 years) accepted a job offer, as we always had it in the back of our heads to go to UK with our children, we kind of just delayed. This time though, when we sent his CV out he had loads of responses and was quickly offered a job after flying out for an interview. Did you have to submit any IRP 5? I didnt put one in, just bank statements 12 months and the 6 months payslips, job offer letter, and current letter from employer with current contract. That was just for the financial requirements. Just seems nightmarish, i have my hubby mom over for holiday from UK and she is really mad as she wanted to have the children fly back home with her, but obviously they cant as all our passports are handed in. 
When will you hear about your appeal?


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## heartbroken (Sep 11, 2012)

Didn't have to provide any IRPs. I handed in 12 months bank statements and 8 months pay slips, letter of employment, and employment contract. I have no real idea when we'll hear anything about the appeal. It can take another 12 weeks to assess the original decision and then if the decision is upheld it goes to courts. If that is the case it will be more than a year!!! :-( So we're really, really hoping it doesn't come to that. Nightmarish indeed.

I'm sorry you have a grumpy mother in law for Christmas ;-) I'm sure everything will be sorted soon - you're two weeks in already!


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## BronwynBean (Nov 20, 2012)

Thanks and good luck to you!!! did you use any help? I tried to fish around from a few agents for tips, but eventually just did it alone. One place in JBurg wanted R12.7k...... I think if i were to appeal i would use a british one, the one lady my mom spoke to was pretty helpful. think it was a company called Platt & Associates (hope im allowed to put that here) The woman sent a small list of accepting issues and then i had to pay them 80 pounds to go further, in total would have been about 1000 pounds. 

Anyway enough visa talk for the weekend.


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