# Non Resident Property Tax



## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Quicky on this one folks- do you stop paying this tax when you become resident or is it when you become tax resident?

Cheers


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Tax resident.

I was out of Spain for 3 years until August this year. We paid non-resident tax for all the duration that we were away, and last week we went to Hacienda to ask what we had to do for the rest of this year.

The answer was very clear. As we are not tax residents this year (less than 180 days residing in Spain) we have to continue to pay it until 31st December.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Rabbitcat said:


> Quicky on this one folks- do you stop paying this tax when you become resident or is it when you become tax resident?
> 
> Cheers


When you become resident is what applied to us, same with non-resident bank accounts.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

So that's one for resident and another tax resident. Which is it folks???


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Rabbitcat said:


> So that's one for resident and another tax resident. Which is it folks???


You pay property tax whether you are tax resident or not - it is one of the costs of owning property and definitely a lot lower in Spain than in UK.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

baldilocks said:


> You pay property tax whether you are tax resident or not - it is one of the costs of owning property and definitely a lot lower in Spain than in UK.


The difference is though that as a non-resident you aren't living in the property so you have to pay "imputed rental tax". As a resident there is no such tax to pay.

I don't know the answer but would suspect it changes when you become tax resident. ( as I'm writing this I've changed my mind to what I've just written!). 

My theory is that you aren't actually resident just because you're now on the list of foreigners.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Come on folks, jeez I thought you experienced folks would know the answer. 

It's a straight forward question- the tax levied on non residents who own property, does it end when these non residents become RESIDENT or when they become TAX RESIDENT?


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Rabbitcat said:


> Come on folks, jeez I thought you experienced folks would know the answer.
> 
> It's a straight forward question- the tax levied on non residents who own property, does it end when these non residents become RESIDENT or when they become TAX RESIDENT?


Your status as "resident" is irrelevant for Hacienda. They only look at your tax residence status. Here is an an extract from their document on "tributación no residentes":

Una persona física será residente o no residente
durante todo el año natural ya que el cambio de
residencia no supone la interrupción del período
impositivo.

This, basically means that regardless of the fact that you may move during a fiscal year, your status for the entire year is the same. And we all know that to be a tax resident in any fiscal year, you have to prove that you have lived in Spain for over 182 days.

This is coherent with the information Hacienda gave me the other day; I am not a tax resident during 2016, therefore I pay the taxes due on non-residency status. The fact that I have moved to Spain in August does not interrupt this status.

I cannot comment on how other people have dealt with this situation, but it is clear that if I had moved to Spain in May, I would be a tax resident during the entire fiscal year and so I would not have had to pay under the non-resident status from 1st January.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

So it ends when you become tax resident?


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Rabbitcat said:


> So it ends when you become tax resident?


... that's what I said in post #6

The problem was in your question as, strictly speaking, there's only one type of residency and that's tax residency. the other, that people wrongly call "getting residencia" is just signing on the list of foreigners.

As intimated above, as Spain don't do part tax years, the year in which you become tax resident is for the whole year as such there is no non-resident tax for that entire year surely?


So, I would say;

It ends on January 1st of the year in which you become tax resident.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Rabbitcat said:


> Come on folks, jeez I thought you experienced folks would know the answer.
> 
> It's a straight forward question- the tax levied on non residents who own property, does it end when these non residents become RESIDENT or when they become TAX RESIDENT?


I owned a property here before I became resident. We moved into the house on a permanent basis at the end of October 2006 and paid the non-resident tax for the year ended 31 December 2006, but did not pay it for the following year which is when we became tax resident (although we didn't have to pay income tax for that year (2007) as we didn't have any income).


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## Campesina (Dec 17, 2011)

It does not seem to have been made clear that you also pay imputed tax as a tax resident on any second or subsequent property including any property owned outside of Spain.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Campesina said:


> It does not seem to have been made clear that you also pay imputed tax as a tax resident on any second or subsequent property including any property owned outside of Spain.


Unless;

You're already renting it/them out in which case you declare the income
The property is uninhabitable 

anyone any ideas about (2) - how do you prove it? is it true?


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## Islandseeker (Sep 30, 2016)

Rabbitcat said:


> Come on folks, jeez I thought you experienced folks would know the answer.
> 
> It's a straight forward question- the tax levied on non residents who own property, does it end when these non residents become RESIDENT or when they become TAX RESIDENT?


I claim no Special knowledge but I have a question. What is the difference between resident and tax resident?


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## SandraP (Apr 23, 2014)

If you are living in a rented property in UK but own a property in Spain, do you still pay imputed tax in Spain or not?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Islandseeker said:


> I claim no Special knowledge but I have a question. What is the difference between resident and tax resident?


If one is living in Spain for more than 90 days, one is deemed to be a resident and required to register as a resident. If one is in Spain as a resident or not for more than 182 days in any one financial year (January - December) one is deemed to be a tax resident and liable to pay tax in Spain on one's world-wide income. The 182 days do not apply if one's centre of economic interest (family, house, etc) is in Spain and one is deemed tax resident immediately.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

SandraP said:


> If you are living in a rented property in UK but own a property in Spain, do you still pay imputed tax in Spain or not?


Yes, of course.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Islandseeker said:


> I claim no Special knowledge but I have a question. What is the difference between resident and tax resident?


Really, there is only one type of residency - tax residency.

However, many people (wrongly) refer to the 90 day rule as getting residency (residencia). All it really is, is signing on the list of foreigners.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

snikpoh said:


> Unless;
> 
> You're already renting it/them out in which case you declare the income
> The property is uninhabitable
> ...


I have bought a second property whilst still being a non-tax resident and the tax advisors have stated that I need to do a second modelo 210 declaration for this property.

They have not mentioned anything about not having to pay if it uninhabitable... I will ask and report back!


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Overandout said:


> I have bought a second property whilst still being a non-tax resident and the tax advisors have stated that I need to do a second modelo 210 declaration for this property.
> 
> They have not mentioned anything about not having to pay if it uninhabitable... I will ask and report back!


I'm sure you picked up on what I said;

Uninhabitable and not simply uninhabited.

The property in question has no water, no electric, no roof etc. ... I still have to pay (FULL) IBI on this property though!


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

snikpoh said:


> I'm sure you picked up on what I said;
> 
> Uninhabitable and not simply uninhabited.
> 
> The property in question has no water, no electric, no roof etc. ... I still have to pay (FULL) IBI on this property though!


Yes, I understood. And our second property in "uninhabitable" as we have ripped out the kitchen and bathrooms.... not sure if that will be a good enough argument though!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

snikpoh said:


> *Really, there is only one type of residency - tax residency.*
> 
> However, many people (wrongly) refer to the 90 day rule as getting residency (residencia). All it really is, is signing on the list of foreigners.


Not True. Once you have passed the 90-days you are deemed to be a resident and required to register. Being a resident, as thus defined, brings in other requirements such as not using/driving a vehicle that is registered in another country, etc. This is totally different from tax-residency.


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## ViaVinho (Jul 29, 2016)

Islandseeker said:


> I claim no Special knowledge but I have a question. What is the difference between resident and tax resident?


There are indeed two types of residency. It is important to understand the difference between them, especially for persons coming from outside the EU.

For want of better designations, I think of them as being:
(i) civil residency (CR) and 
(ii) fiscal residency - the tax residency (TR).

The CR pertains to immigration: your right or ability to move to the new country. This is generally handled by departments of internal/external affairs. Persons from non-EU countries must have a valid residency permit (often termed "residency") in order to settle in the EU. This is why this type of residency is 'real' and important. Without it, you will not be admitted or will be kicked out. Persons from the EU are already 'immigrated', so to speak, and just need to register their new address with the local authorities.

The TR pertains to the ability of the new state to tax you and the manner in which the taxation occurs. For non-EU persons, you likely become a tax resident when you move to the EU as you possibly cannot remain there legally for more than 182 days (due to 90-day Schengen rules). For persons from the EU, who can remain in another country for longer than 182 days in a year, you become a tax resident after this many days, in a given country, during a given year. In my own case, I have been a tax resident, in the same year, of Canada for 8 months and of Portugal for 4 months.

There may also be differences between countries, and regions within countries, and officials within regions, in terms of how the laws are structured, interpreted, and applied. 

(Note that the comma before the last "and" is considered a grammatical error - someone will get upset - but a logical necessity to differentiate between individual items. Think about the difference between the single flavor "rum and raisins" and the two items "rum" and "raisins". Context does not always help to resolve such differences.) 

I hope that this is suitably enlightening, confusing, or enraging - depending on your wish.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> Not True. Once you have passed the 90-days you are deemed to be a resident and required to register. Being a resident, as thus defined, brings in other requirements such as not using/driving a vehicle that is registered in another country, etc. This is totally different from tax-residency.


Please believe me I don't wanna get into the never ending debate re residency BUT whilst in Spain last month I was in contact with an " official" who advised me off the record so to speak-that in the scenario I told him, ie my 4/5 month stays- " it was not worth while me registering if it was basically a long holiday with my real home, income etc not being in Spain" He further stated that people who were in such a " long holiday" situ were not of interest to him and the authorities.

Take from that what you want.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Rabbitcat said:


> Please believe me I don't wanna get into the never ending debate re residency BUT whilst in Spain last month I was in contact with an " official" who advised me off the record so to speak-that in the scenario I told him, ie my 4/5 month stays- " it was not worth while me registering if it was basically a long holiday with my real home, income etc not being in Spain" He further stated that people who were in such a " long holiday" situ were not of interest to him and the authorities.
> 
> Take from that what you want.


I bet you wouldn't ever have convinced him to put it 'on the record' though.........


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I agree, but that in itself means nothing as what's on the record seems rarely enforced either!!!

That's why I started the post with stating its not something I want to get into again on here as we just go round in circles. Was merely reporting what happened


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

baldilocks said:


> Not True. Once you have passed the 90-days you are deemed to be a resident and required to register. Being a resident, as thus defined, brings in other requirements such as not using/driving a vehicle that is registered in another country, etc. This is totally different from tax-residency.


I think it may be down to semantics. I used to think of it as 'residency' too but was then persuaded otherwise.

Due to yours and other comments, I will have to rethink my views on this as it's looking like I may be wrong!


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> Not True. Once you have passed the 90-days you are deemed to be a resident and required to register. Being a resident, as thus defined, brings in other requirements such as not using/driving a vehicle that is registered in another country, etc. This is totally different from tax-residency.


Just to clarify, it is NOT correct to say that "registration" on the "Registro de Cuidandnos de l'Union" which you are required to do after being in the country for 90 days, means that you are unable to use/drive a behicle that is registered in another country. As a non-resident you are allowed to use your foreign registered vehicle for upto 6 months in any 12 month period.

The only formal definitions of residence in Spanish law are in the tax legislation and the law on driving licences. The registration is purely a record of your presence in the country, and that you have sufficient resources to support yourself and your family, as allowed by the EU. Having said that, your own individual circumstances may mean that you are resident, BUT registration alone does not.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

CapnBilly said:


> Just to clarify, it is NOT correct to say that "registration" on the "Registro de Cuidandnos de l'Union" which you are required to do after being in the country for 90 days, means that you are unable to use/drive a behicle that is registered in another country. As a non-resident you are allowed to use your foreign registered vehicle for upto 6 months in any 12 month period.
> 
> The only formal definitions of residence in Spanish law are in the tax legislation and the law on driving licences. The registration is purely a record of your presence in the country, and that you have sufficient resources to support yourself and your family, as allowed by the EU. Having said that, your own individual circumstances may mean that you are resident, BUT registration alone does not.


Sorry but you are wrong. Once you have been living in Spain for 90 days, Spain considers you are a resident and it is illegal for Spanish residents to drive/use vehicles registered in a country other than Spain. It doesn't matter whether you have failed to register on the list of foreigners or not. The allowance is that once you become "resident in Spain" (i.e. you have been here for 90 days) you have a further 90 days (making 6 months in all) to get your vehicle matriculated onto Spanish plates. That is the law and if the Guardia catch you using a UK (or anywhere else) registered vehicle and you are officially resident, they can and will confiscate the vehicle and crush it.


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> Sorry but you are wrong. Once you have been living in Spain for 90 days, Spain considers you are a resident and it is illegal for Spanish residents to drive/use vehicles registered in a country other than Spain. It doesn't matter whether you have failed to register on the list of foreigners or not. The allowance is that once you become "resident in Spain" (i.e. you have been here for 90 days) you have a further 90 days (making 6 months in all) to get your vehicle matriculated onto Spanish plates. That is the law and if the Guardia catch you using a UK (or anywhere else) registered vehicle and you are officially resident, they can and will confiscate the vehicle and crush it.


I do not disagree that you are not allowed to drive a foreign registered vehicle as a resident, my disagreement is with your definition of residence.

So, just to be clear, you are saying that someone who lives in the the U.K. and comes to Spain in their U.K. Registered vehicle, and is here for 120 days, is not allowed to drive it after 90 days.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

CapnBilly said:


> I do not disagree that you are not allowed to drive a foreign registered vehicle as a resident, my disagreement is with your definition of residence.
> 
> So, just to be clear, you are saying that someone who lives in the the U.K. and comes to Spain in their U.K. Registered vehicle, and is here for 120 days, is not allowed to drive it after 90 days.


In theory "Yes" but if they show the Guardia that they have bookings indicating that they are not remaining in Spain, then they will probably get away with it. Don't knock me, I don't make the laws any more than you do.


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> In theory "Yes" but if they show the Guardia that they have bookings indicating that they are not remaining in Spain, then they will probably get away with it. Don't knock me, I don't make the laws any more than you do.


I'm not knocking you, and I'm sure that some of the guardia are applying the law how you say. However, that is not what the law says. I have already posted what it says. It's no wonder people get confused.

An example to support the poor application is that the 90 days plus 90 days to register is just the temporary importation period I mentioned earlier. If, as a resident you import a vehicle into Spain you actually have 30 days to reregister it (not 90 days), although this can be extended to 60 if you are moving to Spain to live, and you owned the vehicle in the country you moved from.


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## paintersmate (Dec 1, 2015)

As we have moved to Spain 7 months ago, bought a house and we have done everything to order of the regulations of the area we live ( Valencia province) with the aid of our lawyer and gestor, This includes registering for residency and matriculating our van, and these are the up to date rules as Baldilocks is stating. Sometimes, people that are going through these bureacratic stages have more up to date information than folks that did years ago, as rules change area to area, and year to year


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

You are quite right paintersmate when moving to Spain one should ASAP comply fully re the rules, for your own peace of mind as well as being legal.

I think what my " off the record" official was indicating to me is what many know suspect. 

In such cases as a 6 week over stay beyond the 90 days when you are clearly ( and can show) going to be returning home after your " long holiday"- discretion and common sense can be applied even if not officially stated.


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## paintersmate (Dec 1, 2015)

You are quite right, Rabbit, we know of many couples that have lived here 13+ years, they say SIP cards were freely given out to them, and have never registered for Residency, for all different , amazing and downright wacky reasons, haha. Also, there are so many here on "long holidays" and still driving on UK plates, I know if stopped they will have a problem, but doesnt seem to worry them. This is why most cannot understand us " doing it all by the book"


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Paintersmate when we end up there f/t I will def be 100% in compliance. I hate the idea of having any possible hassle hanging over me.

My prob re being a few weeks over the limit whilst I still live in Ireland is its very difficult to comply as we have rehearsed on here and nauseam(local medical cover only available for 12 months etc)

I genuinely think in a case where you're a few weeks over, can show you have full medical cover for your entire stay, and can show proof you are fully intending to return to your own country ( return ticket) discretion/ common sense will usually prevail. I accept of course we are responsible for our own actions etc


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

paintersmate said:


> You are quite right, Rabbit, we know of many couples that have lived here 13+ years, they say SIP cards were freely given out to them, and have never registered for Residency, for all different , amazing and downright wacky reasons, haha. Also, there are so many here on "long holidays" and still driving on UK plates, I know if stopped they will have a problem, but doesnt seem to worry them. This is why most cannot understand us " doing it all by the book"


I know one couple who don't want to become tax resident in Spain (nor do they pay tax in the UK). Therefore, they are spending two 3-month stays each year out of Spain, travelling in various countries. What I don't understand is that given their financial circumstances, they wouldn't pay any tax in Spain even if they registered, the husband has a state pension so he'd get S1s for both himself and his younger wife (who has MS) whereas currently they have no medical cover when they're in Spain other than using an EHIC, and I don't know how they plan to renew those when they run out, probably by using someone else's address in the UK. Is it just me, or wouldn't their life be so much easier, cheaper and safer if they just did the right thing?


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## paintersmate (Dec 1, 2015)

I agree Lynn and they are usually the first to moan about immigrants in UK taking from state and putting nothing back !!! What can you say, they nearly always know it all and after all we are the "newbies" we know nuffink, haha !!!!


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I certainly wouldn't dream of peeing about with the tax rules. Very different ball game for which you will be hunted down- although I accept breaking the 90 day rule is also wrong ( before I get hung for that)


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## paintersmate (Dec 1, 2015)

Rabbit, I should think thats fine, we were over by a couple of months with matriculation, you would have to be on the ball to get everything done in 3 months x


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

paintersmate said:


> I agree Lynn and they are usually the first to moan about immigrants in UK taking from state and putting nothing back !!! What can you say, they nearly always know it all and after all we are the "newbies" we know nuffink, haha !!!!


How did you guess?

I don't know if this pair pay non-resident tax on their property in Spain or not, which if they're not registered as residents, they should be doing. Judging by the way they operate in other respects, I suspect not. But if they do pay it, that's another unnecessary expense they've lumbered themselves with.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Well in a round about way the non residents property tax will ease my conscience re my 90 day overstays.

If I was a full tax resident -because of my circumstances -I would be paying no tax so by staying as non res despite the odd overstay I am contributing more!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> I know one couple who don't want to become tax resident in Spain (nor do they pay tax in the UK). Therefore, they are spending two 3-month stays each year out of Spain, travelling in various countries. What I don't understand is that given their financial circumstances, they wouldn't pay any tax in Spain even if they registered, the husband has a state pension so he'd get S1s for both himself and his younger wife (who has MS) whereas currently they have no medical cover when they're in Spain other than using an EHIC, and I don't know how they plan to renew those when they run out, probably by using someone else's address in the UK. Is it just me, or wouldn't their life be so much easier, cheaper and safer if they just did the right thing?


Definitely their lives would be so much easier! 

At some point the UK will realise that they are using EHICs all over the place all year round, especially if she has MS - surely she must need medical attention now & then? 

With so much medication available OTC here, even when it isn't supposed to be, it's too easy to self-diagnose & self-medicate though


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## paintersmate (Dec 1, 2015)

Someone here used ECIH for nearly 10 years while living here permanently !!! and bragged about it Then DWP wrote and told him he had used his card way over any normal usage and would he explain himself, so in the end, you will be found out on health score, but a few weeks with rsidency/matriculation hardly a hanging offence


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> Definitely their lives would be so much easier!
> 
> At some point the UK will realise that they are using EHICs all over the place all year round, especially if she has MS - surely she must need medical attention now & then?
> 
> With so much medication available OTC here, even when it isn't supposed to be, it's too easy to self-diagnose & self-medicate though


Some of the countries they spend months at a time in aren't even in the EU so the EHIC would be no good to them, and I can't see how she'd have travel insurance for her condition. It would frighten me to death to put myself in such a vulnerable position, but on they merrily go.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Well the more I think about it now as I have set out in post 42 I reckon I am actually financially carrying you proper residents and it's you lot who should be condemned. 

What do you think of that then!!!


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## paintersmate (Dec 1, 2015)

Ha, you up for a fight today, I think its about right. so what do you think of that!!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Rabbitcat said:


> Well the more I think about it now as I have set out in post 42 I reckon I am actually financially carrying you proper residents and it's you lot who should be condemned.
> 
> What do you think of that then!!!


Correct me if I'm wrong, but as you don't seem to have actually purchased a property yet you'll have nothing to pay non-resident tax on, will you? Come back and tell us you're carrying us when you have.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Bah! I knew there was a fault with my cunning plan!!!


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