# New crackdown on the black economy in Spain



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Here's a link to a brief article announcing the tax office's intention to inspect certain areas more closely in order to stop the black economy. I suppose it's good news, but how many more unemployed are we going to see as a result. I think there are many people, not just 3 or 4, who can't afford to pay tax. 
Hacienda announces new crackdown on the black economy in Spain


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Here's a link to a brief article announcing the tax office's intention to inspect certain areas more closely in order to stop the black economy. I suppose it's good news, but how many more unemployed are we going to see as a result. I think there are many people, not just 3 or 4, who can't afford to pay tax.
> Hacienda announces new crackdown on the black economy in Spain


Before OH owned her own business, we saved money by employing people 'off the cards' to do various jobs - car repairs, decorating etc. - all paid cash in hand.
Afterwards, such practices were banned in our house!
Why? The simple answer is that OH is basically a principled, honest person (I'm the one with slightly looser standards!) and never ever cheated on tax, VAT etc.
As a reputable business we paid all that was required which of course added to the cost of overheads.
The worker in the black economy is not only acting illegally but is also making it difficult for a fair business owner to operate profitably. He is also depriving the state of revenue needed to provide the infrastructure and facilities he enjoys.
The consumer/customer is also left at the mercy of the black economy worker as there is no redress for faulty goods or shoddy work done.
This black economy is a drain on public resources and its very existence acts as a kind of safety valve and gives the state an excuse for not tackling the real problems of lack of competitiveness and investment in future technologies.
Put these thieves up against the wall!!!!!


----------



## Beachcomber (May 10, 2009)

Sorry, we can't have a debate about this because I agree with every single point you have made.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Beachcomber said:


> Sorry, we can't have a debate about this because I agree with every single point you have made.


Damn!!!


----------



## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Put these thieves up against the wall!!!!!


But before you do so put the thieves who steal the collected taxes up against the wall 

I believe this very piecemeal approach explains why spain is doomed. 

spain needs a comprehensive policy of honesty. It needs amnesty for many to make the change occur. It needs to punish top down. There have been some half hearted attempts but that is not enough.

Cheating (for the want of an all encompassing word) is now part of the spanish way from the very top to the very bottom. Politicians are corrupt, corporates break every rule in the book, lawyers openly encourage tax avoidance, the black economy avoids paying tax, mayors - well don't lets go there .

Without a comprehensive strategy I cannot see this being more than a drip in the ocean 

.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

In Spain you have to work (and pay contributions) for twelve months in order to draw benefit for four months. After that, nada. If you are one of the millions of young people who have not found a job since leaving school, nada. Cracking down on people who work while drawing benefits is just a drop in the ocean. The real black economy goes on amongst people who are NOT getting benefits.

And given the ridiculous situation where, for example, a self-employed bricklayer taking on an apprentice has to pay almost as much in social security for that person as the wage he pays them, it´s not surprising. The whole fiscal structure for small and medium-sized businesses needs radical revision before they start persecuting these people.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> In Spain you have to work (and pay contributions) for twelve months in order to draw benefit for four months. After that, nada. If you are one of the millions of young people who have not found a job since leaving school, nada. Cracking down on people who work while drawing benefits is just a drop in the ocean. The real black economy goes on amongst people who are NOT getting benefits.
> 
> And given the ridiculous situation where, for example, a self-employed bricklayer taking on an apprentice has to pay almost as much in social security for that person as the wage he pays them, it´s not surprising. The whole fiscal structure for small and medium-sized businesses needs radical revision before they start persecuting these people.


That is true but for reasons as explained in my previous post these businesses and consumers deserve protection.
Persecution is not a word I'd apply to people who break the law, btw.
As for tax cheats...I've said many times I regard them as I regard benefit cheats.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Before OH owned her own business, we saved money by employing people 'off the cards' to do various jobs - car repairs, decorating etc. - all paid cash in hand.
> Afterwards, such practices were banned in our house!
> Why? The simple answer is that OH is basically a principled, honest person (I'm the one with slightly looser standards!) and never ever cheated on tax, VAT etc.
> As a reputable business we paid all that was required which of course added to the cost of overheads.
> ...


I think what you are saying here is known and recognised by all. If the worker doesn't pay into the government scheme how can society build the infrastructure that it needs? What kind of rights is the black economy worker giving the consumer? Why should we pay when she/ he doesn't?

But as we all know too, society isn't as black and white as the picture that is being painted here. Many people, many many people quite simply cannot afford to pay taxes in their current situation. The builder, the bloke behind the bar, the person who teaches kids after school 2 hours a day, the gardener etc etc. It's not a question of "Principles" of "Honesty" It's a question of paying the rent, eating breakfast and getting the school books for the kids.

So what do we do? Put these "thieves" up against the wall?? Come on now!

Put reforms in place, put them into action, publicise the action, amnesty and start again - all of which will take time; years, and a govenment that we haven't got and won't have in the next elections either looking around at what we have.

PS Unemployment fraud is just ONE of the areas that they say they'll be targetting.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> That is true but for reasons as explained in my previous post these businesses and consumers deserve protection.
> Persecution is not a word I'd apply to people who break the law, btw.
> As for tax cheats...I've said many times I regard them as I regard benefit cheats.


So when you need a bloke to fix your TV or your car, or do a a few odd jobs round the house, you ask to see his tax returns, do you? When you buy oranges from a street vendor, you ask for a VAT receipt? 

I bet very few of us in Spain could swear we have never taken advantage of workers who are on the black.


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> I bet very few of us in Spain could swear we have never taken advantage of workers who are on the black.



I've yet to find a worker or company that doesnt work "on the black"! Everywhere I've ever paid rent its always been cash, when my car has needed work its been cash, my swimming pool needed repairing - cash! I can only think of one time that I needed a factura (for an insurance claim) it was like getting **** from a rocking horse, they didnt like it at all!

Jo xxx


----------



## Beachcomber (May 10, 2009)

My wife has the opposite problem. Due to the nature of her work her name and ID number appears on numerous legal documentation so she insists on issuing proper invoices. In order to be able to do so she has to give most clients an overall price so that they think they are not paying IVA but declare the income and pay the IVA and income tax out of her fee not to mention her social security payments of nearly €300 per month.

The problem is that in order to do this she has to set her fee a little higher so many prospective clients prefer to use an unregistered, non-taxpaying, non-social security paying person offering similar but inferior, unwarrantied services at a lower price exactly as detailed by mrypg9 in one of her points.

Until there is a vicious clampdown and severe fines imposed upon unregistered workers the vicious circle of black labour and non-payment of taxes will continue.


----------



## owdoggy (Jul 23, 2008)

We first became aware of Spain’s black economy when we bought our house and were instructed on the use of “Black Money”. We were told by our bank manager & abogado that this was the way things are done. The “black” bit of the deal was done with them both looking on, with the full knowledge of the notary, so if you’re going to start sticking people involved in the black economy up against the wall………. I think you’re going to need a very long wall.



Doggy


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> So when you need a bloke to fix your TV or your car, or do a a few odd jobs round the house, you ask to see his tax returns, do you? When you buy oranges from a street vendor, you ask for a VAT receipt?
> 
> I bet very few of us in Spain could swear we have never taken advantage of workers who are on the black.


When we needed anythinhg done we used reputable firms. Small companies are exempt from VAT as I should imagine are most street vendors so your argument doesn't apply..
If an individual businessperson cheats on their tax form that is regrettable but I can do nothing about it. If I choose to pay less for a service because by so doing I am aiding and abetting VAT fraud....it's wrong, it's a crime and I don't do it.
I can put hand on heart and say that I do not encourage tax evasion by knowingly avoiding IVA. Our local garage offers a 'no receipt' service but I always refuse. For one thing my receipt acts as a guarantor of work done.
I find it odd that you seemingly condone fraud by the 'little man' yet want action taken against big business tax cheats.
Both are breaking the law and depriving the state of monies needed for social purposes, amongst other things.
I don't know what the exemption rate for IVA is in Spain but I'm sure that most small businesses would fall well within it, as in the UK.
In the UK we always used businesses we could trust. It is actually possible to be in business and be honest, you know. If tax avoidance is wrong, it's wrong, whetherr by Jose or Jose Hmos.
I would have thought that a person with socialist inclinations would firmly disapprove of cheating the state.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think what you are saying here is known and recognised by all. If the worker doesn't pay into the government scheme how can society build the infrastructure that it needs? What kind of rights is the black economy worker giving the consumer? Why should we pay when she/ he doesn't?
> 
> But as we all know too, society isn't as black and white as the picture that is being painted here. Many people, many many people quite simply cannot afford to pay taxes in their current situation. The builder, the bloke behind the bar, the person who teaches kids after school 2 hours a day, the gardener etc etc. It's not a question of "Principles" of "Honesty" It's a question of paying the rent, eating breakfast and getting the school books for the kids.
> 
> ...



All fraud is wrong. It has an insidious corrupting effect on societies that tolerate and condone it.
I don't understand how anyone can be too poor to pay taxes. Surely if a person's income is that low they would either pay no tax or tax at a very low rate.
But you put an interesting case forward: there were months when the turnover of our business dropped because, for example, companies that had six-figure contracts with us relocated. Our profitability was hard hit. Maybe we should have fiddled our VAT and Corporation Tax figures, NI contributions etc. for that period.....
It may be old-fashioned but as socially responsible employers we did what the law -and our consciences - told us to do.
And when all is said and done, tolerating and encouraging the black economy does nothing to help the country, the company or the individual worker.
Countries where the black economy plays a major role in economic activity are not strong....Greece, Portugal, most of Eastern Europe ....and Spain.
I rest my case.


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

The problem is the size of the mandatory Soc Sec payment for an autonomo. It's about 271€ for me. I believe it is slightly lower for some and may be even more for others. It has to be paid every month whatever you earn. 

It doesn't exactly encourage compliance if you're doing a bit of cleaning work, gardening, painting someone's living room or giving a couple of language lessons per week. 

There seems to be nothing at all between sitting on your arse doing nothing and having an income of about 1000€ per month. 

I would like to know if I'm wrong about that by the way because there are any number of people I know of (of many different nationalities) who would gladly work legally if they could afford to.

ETA. So in answer to Mary's post which I've just seen - a) You pay a high tax even if you earn next to nothing and b) the Spanish tax system itself encourages the black economy.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> ETA. So in answer to Mary's post which I've just seen - a) You pay a high tax even if you earn next to nothing and b) the Spanish tax system itself encourages the black economy.


Then it is in need of urgent reform for the sake of the economy as well as the workers.
What is the starting point for income tax in Spain? And for the equivalent of IVA and Corporation tax?
I'm amazed that after so many years in power under Gonzales and now Zapatero the PSOE has done nothing to reform a clearly unfair tax system.


----------



## littleredrooster (Aug 3, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> But before you do so put the thieves who steal the collected taxes up against the wall
> 
> I believe this very piecemeal approach explains why spain is doomed.
> 
> ...


Quite agree, however in addition I would say that this has been so engrained in the Spanish culture, from top to bottom, for such a long time, that the chances of changing it now are extremely remote.
Putting the offenders against the wall, as Mary suggests, would probably leave Spain with a population somewhat smaller than the Isle of Wight and make Franco's contribution seem miniscule by comparison.


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

jojo said:


> I've yet to find a worker or company that doesnt work "on the black"! Everywhere I've ever paid rent its always been cash, when my car has needed work its been cash, my swimming pool needed repairing - cash! I can only think of one time that I needed a factura (for an insurance claim) it was like getting **** from a rocking horse, they didnt like it at all!
> 
> Jo xxx


Apparently the only legal way to pay rent is , monthly, in cash & has to be picked up IN the rented property by the owner or his agent ! That's according to my neighbours when I asked why , on numerous occasions when going out we had to stop & pick up the rent.

mrypg9: "Small companies are exempt from VAT as I should imagine are most street vendors so your argument doesn't apply.."
"I don't know what the exemption rate for IVA is in Spain but I'm sure that most small businesses would fall well within it, as in the UK."
No they are not & their isn't one ; except in some obscure cases ! If you are autonomo or a ltd . co. you have to register for iva. There's no exemption as in the UK.
When my partner & I looked ate changing to an SLL from autonomo the soc. sec. payments + accountants charge per month would have been 836€ before busines expenses !! The soc. sec. was the same but the accts. charge increased by 210€ a month. With other expenses this meant we had to be earning 400€+ per week , before tax deductions just to pay for the aforementioned .I couldn't see the point. 

jimenato . There is a lower rate for women who clean multiple houses. I.E. 2hrs her & 2hrs there. I think it used to be about 30€ a month. 

So when you look at it from the above costs , it really needs to be overhauled.

I remember reading somewhere that 85% of Spaniards reclaim the tax that they've paid or had stopped every year. Can' t quite believe it myself.


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

gus-lopez said:


> Apparently the only legal way to pay rent is , monthly, in cash & has to be picked up IN the rented property by the owner or his agent ! That's according to my neighbours when I asked why , on numerous occasions when going out we had to stop & pick up the rent.



Oh I see hhhmmmmm!! Well I've never had the owner or his agent come to the house, nor would particularly I want him to. I've always had to take the money in cash to the rental agents office and I always had to ask for them to give me some sort of receipt. All my bills are in the owners name, not mine and are sent to the house, which again I have to take to the agents office and pay in cash! Its been like that in all the houses I've rented. I've often thought if this is how it is for me, a total stranger to these agents etc, then it must be like that for thousands and thousands of other tenants across Spain - all paying "in the black" without really being able to do much else. I guess if I made a fuss, then they'd wack the rental up to cover the tax - which obviously I wouldnt want cos it would throw my budget - which makes me an accomplice??????

Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jimenato said:


> The problem is the size of the mandatory Soc Sec payment for an autonomo. It's about 271€ for me. I believe it is slightly lower for some and may be even more for others. It has to be paid every month whatever you earn.
> 
> It doesn't exactly encourage compliance if you're doing a bit of cleaning work, gardening, painting someone's living room or giving a couple of language lessons per week.
> 
> ...


Yes, 254 euros for me. I can tell you, some months with holidays, petrol, cancellations I wonder why I'm doing it.
Of course the answer lies in changing legislation, but the black money culture, which you can understand to some extent will be hard to erradicate.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, 254 euros for me. I can tell you, some months with holidays, petrol, cancellations I wonder why I'm doing it.
> Of course the answer lies in changing legislation, but the black money culture, which you can understand to some extent will be hard to erradicate.


PS. Plus of course, tax!!


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> When we needed anythinhg done we used reputable firms. Small companies are exempt from VAT as I should imagine are most street vendors so your argument doesn't apply..
> If an individual businessperson cheats on their tax form that is regrettable but I can do nothing about it. If I choose to pay less for a service because by so doing I am aiding and abetting VAT fraud....it's wrong, it's a crime and I don't do it.
> I can put hand on heart and say that I do not encourage tax evasion by knowingly avoiding IVA. Our local garage offers a 'no receipt' service but I always refuse. For one thing my receipt acts as a guarantor of work done.
> I find it odd that you seemingly condone fraud by the 'little man' yet want action taken against big business tax cheats.
> ...


I´m not condoning fraud, but bad laws are there to be broken. The current system is patently unfair since it is strongly weighted against the "little man". Somebody trying to earn a crust by doing some casual building work or selling produce from ther huertos and not declaring their income isn´t harming the economy on anything like the same scale as big corporate tax avoiders. Until we get a sensible sliding scale for IVA and SS I can´t regard him with the same level of outrage and ire that you and Beachcomber are displaying. 

Does your Austrian landlord pay tax to the Spanish authorities on your rent, I wonder?


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I´m not condoning fraud, but bad laws are there to be broken. The current system is patently unfair since it is strongly weighted against the "little man". Somebody trying to earn a crust by doing some casual building work or selling produce from ther huertos and not declaring their income isn´t harming the economy on anything like the same scale as big corporate tax avoiders. Until we get a sensible sliding scale for IVA and SS I can´t regard him with the same level of outrage and ire that you and Beachcomber are displaying.
> 
> Does your Austrian landlord pay tax to the Spanish authorities on your rent, I wonder?


The answer to the last question is Yes. He is an honest straightforward man and a good landlord. One of the reasons we moved from our piso was that the agents were cheats.
Societies are defined to a great extent by their ethos arising from culture developed over centuries. Not for nothing do we have the phrase 'old Spanish custom'. But developed modern societies cannot work forever on a culture of acceptance of dishonesty. By accepting cheating as a safety valve for lack of an effective and just social and fiscal structure you are presenting the government with a perfect excuse for doing nothing.
Spain is slowly tackling this culture - half the Mayors along the Costas seem to be banged up in jail, along with councillors and planning officers. That's a start. The Government is committed to tackling corporate tax evasion and has had modest success. In tiime -much time - intolerance of fraud will percolate throughout society. Fish rots from the head down, as the saying goes.
Every society has an underlying seam of corruption. The main point here is that in Spain this is accepted as a way of 'getting by'. What it does in reality is to impede social and economic progress. Effective societies are based on trust. Few people realise that trust underpins a functioning society. Building trust and integrity takes time and needs a strong lead from above.
The only way to overturn bad laws or inadequate social structures is by action, not acquiescence. I received a summons and fine for not paying the iniquitous Poll Tax - that's how I registered my objection to a bad law - but I also actively campaigned against it and presented alternatives.
The black economy is a bad thing. It retards social justice and acts as a drag on an effective economy. 
Refusal to participate is to me one way of registering a protest. Things will change, albeit slowly. After all, slavery and the denial of the franchise were once thought of as an unchangeable siocial fact: just like the black economy.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Seems to me that the posters here agree that black economy exists, that its effect on Spain's economy is huge and that change will take a long time to come about.
Where we differ is whether we have a certain sympathy for the money under the table worker or not. And my thoughts lie more in the direction that Alcalaina takes


> Somebody trying to earn a crust by doing some casual building work or selling produce from ther huertos and not declaring their income isn´t harming the economy on anything like the same scale as big corporate tax avoiders. Until we get a sensible sliding scale for IVA and SS I can´t regard him with the same level of outrage and ire that you and Beachcomber are displaying.


I can't understand people who just want to rake in more and more money for themselves. I _*can*_ understand people wanting to be able to make a living which, with the way things stand, many low income families cannot do legally or easily

PS Not trying to catch you out, just curious - your gardener come pool man? He would be the first gardener I've heard of who serves private houses and declares


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Seems to me that the posters here agree that black economy exists, that its effect on Spain's economy is huge and that change will take a long time to come about.
> Where we differ is whether we have a certain sympathy for the money under the table worker or not. And my thoughts lie more in the direction that Alcalaina takes
> I can't understand people who just want to rake in more and more money for themselves. I _*can*_ understand people wanting to be able to make a living which, with the way things stand, many low income families cannot do legally or easily
> 
> PS Not trying to catch you out, just curious - your gardener come pool man? He would be the first gardener I've heard of who serves private houses and declares


I don't pay Manolo, our landlord does. Our complicated legal rental agreement includes a clause referring to his 300 euros a month.
Austrians, like Germans, generally accept a culture of doing what you should.
What strikes me is that this 'sympathy for the little man/entrepreneur/capitalist' is that it supports and actually encourages the most primitive form of free-market capitalism. Small business people as a class are usually no fans of a redistributive
social market economy. In the UK such people are encouraged in their views by rags such as The Maul. Gutter jounos like Richard Littlejohn fuel the flames by banging on about taxes being used to pay for lute lessons for lesbians or luxury hotels for prisoners and other such tripe.
I am a firm believer in a social market economy where private enterprise -the only proven effective way of managing a prosperous economy *if regulated* -
supports the less well-off and needy via redistribution via taxation. 
In order to redistribute you need a tax take. Simple. One of the reasons that Germany's and the Scandinavian social market model has worked so well is that it has a basic understanding of social justice and cohesion. Tax rates are high but inequality is less.
Acceptance of something which is both morally wrong and socially and economically damaging is what we normally associate with unscrupulous capitalism.
So the black market economy exists. So do domestic violence, child abuse, economic exploitation and other iniquities. I don't accept any of these as fixed and permanent.
I don't have an a la carte approach to these issues.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I don't pay Manolo, our landlord does. Our complicated legal rental agreement includes a clause referring to his 300 euros a month.
> Austrians, like Germans, generally accept a culture of doing what you should.
> What strikes me is that this 'sympathy for the little man/entrepreneur/capitalist' is that it supports and actually encourages the most primitive form of free-market capitalism. Small business people as a class are usually no fans of a redistributive
> social market economy. In the UK such people are encouragI'm not talking about accepted in their views by rags such as The Maul. Gutter jounos like Richard Littlejohn fuel the flames by banging on about taxes being used to pay for lute lessons for lesbians or luxury hotels for prisoners and other such tripe.
> ...


That rent agreement sounds like a good way of solving things.

I'm not talking about acceptance of tax issues. I'm talking about a realization that the system as it stands doesn't work, which is where Alacalaina's statement of "bad rules are there to be broken" And, as far as I understand, you agree with that, so I think we're saying the same more or less.
You can't expect people to do something that they can't. You might make people do something that is difficult to their survival, but not something that if they _do_ follow, will actually put their survival in jeopardy.
I realise this isn't the case for all black money workers by any means, but for some, a large number, it is. Besides that, the whole system is clumsy, difficult to understand and time consuming. It doesn't encourage people to contribute. 
The whole issue needs to be given an overhaul, but as I said before, I doubt that this government nor the next will be capable of tackling such a complex area.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I think that for me it comes down to a basic question: is tax avoidance in a democracy morally, legally or ethically justified?
My answer to that is a definite No unless it is done as a public, principled stance in order to highlight a social issue e.g. the Poll Tax in the UK and those who do so are prepared to face all consequences.
The main beneficiaries of this culture of fraud -because that's what it is - are large corporations and governments who use fraud by the little people as an opiate to avoid taxing to provide social justice and equality.
Noone is suggesting that the neighbour who sells you eggs or oranges should be made to pay tax. That's reduction ad absurdio or whatever the Latin phrase is. It would cost more to collect such tax than any received revenue from such activities.
But tacitly or actively supporting fraud aka the black economy is not some kind of Robin Hood act to help the poor.
It is conniving at the poor robbing the even poorer.


----------



## Beachcomber (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> ...Somebody trying to earn a crust by doing some casual building work or selling produce from ther huertos and not declaring their income isn´t harming the economy on anything like the same scale as big corporate tax avoiders...


Can we assume, then, that your support for the concept of tax evasion extends to the thousands of non-resident property owners who not only fail to pay their annual non-resident income tax, or declare the income on their holiday lets, but openly boast about the fact to the extent of ridiculing those people who do?


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Beachcomber said:


> Can we assume, then, that your support for the concept of tax evasion extends to the thousands of non-resident property owners who not only fail to pay their annual non-resident income tax, or declare the income on their holiday lets, but openly boast about the fact to the extent of ridiculing those people who do?



Whilst I'm sure Alcalaina can speak up for herself, when did 

somebody trying to earn a crust by doing some casual building work or selling produce from ther huertos

equal

the thousands of non-resident property owners who not only fail to pay their annual non-resident income tax, or declare the income on their holiday lets, but openly boast about the fact to the extent of ridiculing those people who do

????????????????


----------



## Beachcomber (May 10, 2009)

Tax evasion is tax evasion. You can't divide up the categories of people who practise it just to suit your own political prejudices.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Beachcomber said:


> Tax evasion is tax evasion. You can't divide up the categories of people who practise it just to suit your own political prejudices.


At the risk of repeating myself, as I have said this before...

_*I'm not talking about acceptance of tax issues. I'm talking about a realization that the system as it stands doesn't work, which is where Alcalaina's statement of "bad rules are there to be broken" comes in
*_
Yes. Of course. I agree. Tax evasion is tax evasion.
However IMO it is more understandable in some cases more than others.

What it comes down to is that you have your opinion, and I have mine


----------



## Beachcomber (May 10, 2009)

So it's OK for Bob the Bodger to evade his fiscal obligations but not Edward the Entrepreneur. Socialism at its hypocritical best!


----------



## littleredrooster (Aug 3, 2008)

Beachcomber said:


> So it's OK for Bob the Bodger to evade his fiscal obligations but not Edward the Entrepreneur. Socialism at its hypocritical best!


It's not really just a political issue, but more a fact of life with regard to Spanish culture as a whole, and has been that way now for so many generations that the chances of changing it or more importantly changing ppls attitudes, vary somewhere between very slim and non-existant.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Beachcomber said:


> Tax evasion is tax evasion. You can't divide up the categories of people who practise it just to suit your own political prejudices.


Which is how I see it.

The black economy is, to coin a Marxist phrase, the opiate of the masses.
It prevents reform.
To deplore something yet to perpetuate it is not the way to make much-needed changes.
As I said earlier, economies with a large informal sector are economies with inadequate social provision and stagnant economic performance.
Those countries with effective economies and high standards of social provision have a very small and much frowned upon informal sector.
High tax, high wage and high social wage are my idea of a well-functioning economy....such as are found in Norway, Sweden and Denmark and to some extent Germany and France.
And here Beachcomber and I might disagree


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Beachcomber said:


> So it's OK for Bob the Bodger to evade his fiscal obligations but not Edward the Entrepreneur. Socialism at its hypocritical best!


 
Pesky Wesky


> . Yes. Of course. I agree. Tax evasion is tax evasion.
> However IMO it is more understandable in some cases more than others.


***


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> At the risk of repeating myself, as I have said this before...
> 
> _*I'm talking about a realization that the system as it stands doesn't work, which is where Alcalaina's statement of "bad rules are there to be broken" comes in
> *_


No, I disagree with the whole premise of that. If a system is imperfect you work to change it. You don't further embed it in a culture by participating in it.
Bad rules/laws aren't like the weather. They are made by humans and can be changed. We disagreed with the Poll Tax, refused to pay it, received a summons ....but simultaneously worked to change that law. And we were successful.
To those who say that fraud is embedded in Spanish culture I would say:
so was authoritarianism. Yet the first democratically elected Government after Francoism was socialist. To keep more money for oneself isn't just a Spanish habit, it's world-wide.
Cultures can and do change. Not overnight but after a long hard slog of persuasion and regulation. 
Those of a left-wing persuasion believe that environment determines culture. It's the whole basis of socialism/communism. Acceptance of and reluctance to change the status quo is a mark of the true conservative.


----------



## Beachcomber (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> ...And here Beachcomber and I might disagree


No, I don't think so, sorry!!


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Beachcomber said:


> No, I don't think so, sorry!!


Damn again!!


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Please could one of my attackers point to the bit where I said I was _in favour _of tax fraud?  

I'm merely suggesting, and will do so for the last time because I'm getting bored with this, that the existing punitive flat-rate system of IVA and SS payments for autonomos and small businesses needs to be revised drastically before you can expect anything to improve. 

It's all very well saying that if they don't like it they can change it - this is not the Poll Tax. People aren't going to take to the streets and demand the right to pay their IVA. 

And no Spanish government, elected or otherwise, has ever attempted to tackle the problem. Given that the PP are likely to win the next general election (if they can find enough honest PP politicians to stand, that is - Francisco Camps formally accused of continued bribery ) it will be interesting to see how they propose to tackle the problem. :flypig:


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Please could one of my attackers point to the bit where I said I was _in favour _of tax fraud?
> 
> I'm merely suggesting, and will do so for the last time because I'm getting bored with this, that the existing punitive flat-rate system of IVA and SS payments for autonomos and small businesses needs to be revised drastically before you can expect anything to improve.
> 
> ...


Of course people won't take to the streets to demand an end to defrauding IVA. 
They don't see it as in their interests.
Yes, you are right. The Government won't hasten to introduce reforms although they are making a start.
What is the essential difference between reforming British and Spanish tax systems?? A fatalism that entrenches the belief that nothing can be done to change it, seems to be the answer. 
I've never suggested that you are in favour of tax fraud. And I'm certainly not suggesting that it will be easy to change the culture.
But it is a symptom of a disease that needs surgery in order to be cured. A start has to be made and we vdo so by turning our backs on the black economy out of principle because it helps noone, the poorest least of all. As I said, it is tolerated because it is an opiate.


----------



## littleredrooster (Aug 3, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> No, I disagree with the whole premise of that. If a system is imperfect you work to change it. You don't further embed it in a culture by participating in it.
> Bad rules/laws aren't like the weather. They are made by humans and can be changed. We disagreed with the Poll Tax, refused to pay it, received a summons ....but simultaneously worked to change that law. And we were successful.
> To those who say that fraud is embedded in Spanish culture I would say:
> so was authoritarianism. Yet the first democratically elected Government after Francoism was socialist. To keep more money for oneself isn't just a Spanish habit, it's world-wide.
> ...




To change the Spanish culture and way of life, to something akin to the sort of soulless, robotic society that exists in countries such as Sweden, thankfully is unlikely to ever happen.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> No, I disagree with the whole premise of that. If a system is imperfect you work to change it. You don't further embed it in a culture by participating in it.
> Bad rules/laws aren't like the weather. They are made by humans and can be changed. We disagreed with the Poll Tax, refused to pay it, received a summons ....but simultaneously worked to change that law. And we were successful.
> To those who say that fraud is embedded in Spanish culture I would say:
> so was authoritarianism. Yet the first democratically elected Government after Francoism was socialist. To keep more money for oneself isn't just a Spanish habit, it's world-wide.
> ...


Really, you wouldn't believe I make my living as a teacher and successfully explain, converse and interchange opinions with groups of students every working day!!
If you look back at the posts, we actually agree on most things. Where we don't agree is that I understand that some people would find earning money and having enough money to contribute as they should to the government, nigh on impossible. I do think that everyone should contribute. I just think it's very difficult for a considerable number of people to do that.
We both think that everyone should contribute, we both think that new laws, regulations, legislation whatever needs to be put in place. We both think that past and present govenments have not/ are not doing that etc etc.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

littleredrooster said:


> To change the Spanish culture and way of life, to something akin to the sort of soulless, robotic society that exists in countries such as Sweden, thankfully is unlikely to ever happen.


What evidence do you have for that somewhat sweeping statement?
I have visited Sweden and Denmark and, frankly, found them both to be rather dull and boring and not a place I would like to spend much time in.
To describe Sweden as 'soulless' and 'robotic' implies however something that I feel is more in your mind and influencing your perception than what is reality.
It was certainly not my impression.
I was more impressed by the huge amount I had to pay to get a decent meal. 
When I visited a year or so ago I was attending a Conference and therefore had all expenses paid but when I received the bill for a good but no way fancy meal I was so shocked I had to order a brandy.
When I submitted my final claim I had severe although unnecessary feelings of guilt as I felt that my colleagues would, by the size of my claim, suspect me of wild and luxurious excess during my stay.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Really, you wouldn't believe I make my living as a teacher and successfully explain, converse and interchange opinions with groups of students every working day!!
> If you look back at the posts, we actually agree on most things. Where we don't agree is that I understand that some people would find earning money and having enough money to contribute as they should to the government, nigh on impossible. I do think that everyone should contribute. I just think it's very difficult for a considerable number of people to do that.
> We both think that everyone should contribute, we both think that new laws, regulations, legislation whatever needs to be put in place. We both think that past and present govenments have not/ are not doing that etc etc.



Well, I made my living that way for decades and I am never surprised at the sadly feeble power of education.
The difference is small but significant. I believe that no habit or practice is so engrained in culture that it cannot be changed if it has an adverse effect on society. If I think it's wrong I'll turn my back on it. I refuse to accept it as a given.
I don't know about you but I do not use firms or individuals who offer me IVA -less bills. As I don't do many such transactions here, apart from having my vehicle maintained, this has zero impact. But we could all make a stand - if of course we comparatively wealthy people could bear to forgo saving a few euros.
We agree that the tax structure needs to be changed and made more progressive. To do that can't be rocket science. We are talking about changes to a fiscal system, not genetically modifying the brains of the Spanish people. Spanish people are not possessed of some genetic inheritance which predisposes them to be dishonest.
People on the left believe that environment determines culture. So change the environment!
The point is that if a government is to raise the living standards by social action it needs revenue from the tax system to do so and it can't do that if a huge amount of potential revenue is creamed off by fraud.
And don't let us forget that we are not talking of people selling their eggs and oranges to their neighbours. We are talking about businesspeople. 
The main beneficiaries of a culture where fraud is accepted are the wealthy and powerful.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> It's all very well saying that if they don't like it they can change it - this is not the Poll Tax. People aren't going to take to the streets and demand the right to pay their IVA.
> 
> And no Spanish government, elected or otherwise, has ever attempted to tackle the problem. Given that the PP are likely to win the next general election (if they can find enough honest PP politicians to stand, that is - Francisco Camps formally accused of continued bribery ) it will be interesting to see how they propose to tackle the problem. :flypig:



Err...people including me took to the streets *because they did not want* to pay the Poll Tax....not because they wanted to.
I'm surprised you are so defeatist. As I said, the current Government has made an attempt to reform the tax system and there is more than enough evidence to show that a real attempt is being made to deal with municipal corruption.
Although I'm no longer politically active - I can't find anyone I trust or find convincing enough to vote for - I haven't given up the hope that action can bring about change.
We all agree on most things as PW as said. Where we disagree is that I cannot understand the seeming acceptance that 'nothing will change'.
A most conservative, reactionary stance!


----------



## littleredrooster (Aug 3, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> What evidence do you have for that somewhat sweeping statement?
> I have visited Sweden and Denmark and, frankly, found them both to be rather dull and boring and not a place I would like to spend much time in.
> To describe Sweden as 'soulless' and 'robotic' implies however something that I feel is more in your mind and influencing your perception than what is reality.
> It was certainly not my impression.
> ...


I have lived there for various periods, mainly Summers,during the past sixteen years and owned a sizable property there for the past ten years and was also resident for a while, until I had a taste of how their authoritarian, bureaucratic, socialist system works, (much like the soviet bloc countries forty years ago), but with a better standard of living, or maybe existing would be a fairer description.
The terms I used, I have heard repeated many times previously.
For instance if you have read the excellent book "Driving over Lemons", you would have seen similar references by the author, who had to occasionally spend time their to bring in some much needed income, but much preferred living in a hovel on a Spanish mountain,without running water or electric or even a roof at times, to staying any longer than he had to in such a soulless society, as he also described it.
The basic cost of living is not too bad, away from the biggest cities, though the taxes, (and also taxes on taxes can you believe), can hurt quite a bit, but it's a little more expensive just across the border in Norway, hence quite a few of them come over to do their shopping once in a while.
Fortunately my place is way out in the sticks and close to a small village or enclave of "rebels", Swedish ppl who not only despise the system, but tend to go about living their lives their own cheerful way, probably a bit like some of the Spanish you are getting so upset about in fact.


----------



## maxd (Mar 22, 2009)

Does anybody employee anyone full time on this forum? If they did they would know why people are employed black. Social protection in Spain is lunacy. We had to take 100,000 euros from our pocket to pay redundancy.

It is 45 days for every year worked. So basically someone employed with you for 7 years is going to get a full years severance pay. That hurts when you need to downsize anyway in the recession. It is way way over the European average by a factor of 2. After they get sacked they get a nice 2 years on the dole no questions asked. People are justing waiting and willing it to happen so they can get a fat pay off and then sit on the ass for a year or 2. 

I have seen it first hand, the employees have you by the balls and judges in arbitration will in general side with the employee.

Also you see about labour reform, that is a complete joke. 33 days redundancy is for new contracts only. So if you have people from before that is too bad, pay up.

Another one is social contributions for sick people, we have had someone off a year sick but still have to pay nigh on 1000 a month in social contributions. WTF, we paid taxes on social for this person so why do we have to pick up the bill now.

The only way is temporary and part time contracts, which we have now chosen, unless you want to be the governments sucker, the Spanish government is it's own worst enemy. 

Brussels keeps on telling them to reform, they only do something superficial to look good in Brussels but the real devil is in the detail, minimal difference and I can see why the black economy is thriving.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

maxd said:


> Does anybody employee anyone full time on this forum? If they did they would know why people are employed black. Social protection in Spain is lunacy. We had to take 100,000 euros from our pocket to pay redundancy.
> 
> It is 45 days for every year worked. So basically someone employed with you for 7 years is going to get a full years severance pay. That hurts when you need to downsize anyway in the recession. It is way way over the European average by a factor of 2. After they get sacked they get a nice 2 years on the dole no questions asked. People are justing waiting and willing it to happen so they can get a fat pay off and then sit on the ass for a year or 2.
> 
> ...




It's tough running a business, isn't it?
Tough being sick too.
Why did you put people on permanent contracts, I wonder?
Yes, the system needs reform. Our charity employs people full time and yes, the social costs impose a burden on us.
Our financial plans take account of this.

By the way, are you still filling those cheap Malaga and Alicante flights with the kind of people who do the disgusting things you described some time ago?


----------



## maxd (Mar 22, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> It's tough running a business, isn't it?
> Tough being sick too.
> Why did you put people on permanent contracts, I wonder?
> Yes, the system needs reform. Our charity employs people full time and yes, the social costs impose a burden on us.
> ...


Business is OK actually, this year it is picking up. Even better now we have dumped our social burden. We also taking on more properties because property is cheaper.

As previously mentioned people on full time contracts were down to us being lazy in the good times and not looking into severance pay. Yes, our fault I guess. We have taken the pain now to make the gain. No more dole contributions from us anymore.

We downsized in many countries, Spain was by far the worst in terms of what the government expects. As this thread is about the black economy, I thought I would add as to why it is rampant.

To be honest business wise across the whole of Europe we are seeing an increase of about 10% or more this year. Things are improving but sllowwlllyyyy.

We do not do Malga, we do Barcelona and Madrid. Our nasty customers in general come to Prague


----------



## Beachcomber (May 10, 2009)

maxd said:


> Does anybody employee anyone full time on this forum?...


The answer to this question has to be 'not bloody likely' for the very reasons that you proceed to itemise in your post.

When my wife and I first moved to Spain we started our own separate businesses as autónomos but took a conscious decision not to allow either of them to grow to such an extent that we needed to employ staff especially as this was prior to Spain's membership of the European Union and things were not as easy for foreigners as they are now.

In the early days this meant working virtually day and night but it was infinitely preferable to lumbering ourselves with employees whom it would be very difficult to dismiss subsequently and it also meant that we could pick and choose our clientèle. To anyone we didn't like the look of the response was, 'sorry, too busy'.

With employment laws having become even more draconian over the years from point of view of employers I am glad we took this decision and stuck to it.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

maxd said:


> Business is OK actually, this year it is picking up. Even better now we have dumped our social burden. We also taking on more properties because property is cheaper.
> 
> As previously mentioned people on full time contracts were down to us being lazy in the good times and not looking into severance pay. Yes, our fault I guess. We have taken the pain now to make the gain. No more dole contributions from us anymore.
> 
> ...


Glad to hear that! (I mean about business and your 'nasty' customers going to Prague).
I haven't been back to Prague as I've been so busy with the dog charity and when I have got away it's been on business to the UK. I'm hoping to pay a visit before the summer and the place becomes even more choked with tourists. I think Prague is the most tourist-filled city I have ever been to.
I keep in touch with all my friends including that one who says he knows you.
I do miss the place but for the whole of this month so far we've had temperatures of 30C and we've been able to sunbathe by our pool -although no way will we get in it for a couple of months! So there are many reasons to stay in Andalucia.
Our Little Azor loves it here as there are plenty of places for him to roam in the campo. You can see a recent photo of him in my album (that is if you are interested, not everyone is a dog lover, I know).


----------



## maxd (Mar 22, 2009)

Fair enough Mary, Southern Spain is a bit naff for me. To talk of Prague being too touristy compared to the Costa del Sol is slightly ironic 

I loved Serville but found CDS a bit naff and after visting there it destroyed any dream I had of partially moving down there. Actually now I have 2 kids we are thinking of spending some of the year back in the UK as I think some contact with my side of the family is important.

Prague is the same as it ever was, not much has changed apart from all the regulars from expats.cz got kicked out, a decision I never understood as it is a ghost forum now. I guess some advertisers were complaining about the juvenile behaviour.

I would move to Australia as I am half Australian ( left when I was 7) but if you have ever lived in a different time zone you would know that you can forget about contacting family and friends as the time difference is just too difficult to work around.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

maxd said:


> Fair enough Mary, Southern Spain is a bit naff for me. To talk of Prague being too touristy compared to the Costa del Sol is slightly ironic
> 
> I loved Serville but found CDS a bit naff and after visting there it destroyed any dream I had of partially moving down there. Actually now I have 2 kids we are thinking of spending some of the year back in the UK as I think some contact with my side of the family is important.
> 
> ...


Yes, I agree with you. Parts of the CDS are extremely naff. We are very lucky in that my son and dil invested in property in what is probably one of the quietest most unspoilt stretches of the CDS. We are on the fringes of Benahavis, allegedly the wealthiest village in the province. Our little village has zero tourist attractions and the summer visitors are mainly Madrilenos visiting their summer homes or wealthy Russians who pay £3000 a week and more to rent villas here. A few French were in evidence last year but very few Brits.
I love Prague, it's beautiful but you really can't move for tourists most of the year but specially in summer. We couldn't live there as although we had a lovely house and a reasonable amount of money to spend we couldn't enjoy the same standard of living we had in the UK. No other capital city I know has so few good restaurants, shops of all kinds especially food and clothing and more importantly has such low standards of personal and public hygiene. The place stinks! My OH hated the lack of 'elegance'. 
We shall stay here for a few more years then move to Southern France. OH is fascinated by Australia but it doesn't appeal to me at all. We have relatives there but I've never been to visit.
I'm not surprised the expats.cz is dying. It was puerile, vulgar and silly.
Like some people round here, too many ten-bob millionaires and self-inventors.
Got to take the dog out, keep making the money!


----------



## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

*An interesting thread*

An editorial from El Pais below that sums things up (to my mind)
Now given that the info is correct (odds on it is) you have more chance of Action Man getting a hard on than you have of expecting the peasantry to toe the line when the Law Makers are as bent as a nine bob note, and will in all probability continue to be so !

.................................
El PAIS

Two days after the prosecutor called for court proceedings against the Valencian regional premier Francisco Camps, the Popular Party (PP) official quickly proclaimed his candidacy for the upcoming regional elections. His move is not only a challenge to the PP's national leadership, which now finds itself in the position of having to ratify his designation; it is also an act of defiance toward the courts, which he has so far attempted to oppose with every sort of ruse, to avoid paying for the crime of which he is accused.

Slowly but inexorably, however, the courts have cornered the Valencian politico, who did not merely accept as a gift "four neckties," in the words of Esteban González Pons (now the party's spokesman and formerly a close collaborator of the Valencian premier). The prosecutor's office is demanding for Camps a 41,250-euro fine for accepting gifts to the value of 14,021 euros from several companies involved in the Gürtel corruption network, to which his administration gave lucrative contracts. Besides which, the regional High Court of Valencia has found evidence of irregular party financing, which is still under investigation.

PP leader Mariano Rajoy's strategy of leaving problems to rot until they fall of their own weight- as he did, for example, in the case of the former party treasurer Luis Bárcenas, who eventually stepped down owing to his involvement in Gürtel- has not worked with Camps.

Clinging to power and to his party's favorable electoral expectations in the Valencia region, his attitude has caused malaise among the PP national leadership - which, however, seems prepared, though reluctantly, to ratify his candidacy if only to avoid confrontation with a well-entrenched politician who may be in a position to demand payment for services rendered.

The result is a grotesque spectacle on two sides. The PP, which has well-founded aspirations to win the upcoming local and regional ballots, and later to unsaddle Prime Minister Zapatero in the next general election, may be perceived more than ever as the party of corruption, incapable of removing its rotten apples and appearing to remain in connivance with them. The Gürtel corruption scandal will sooner or later adversely affect Rajoy if he supports the candidacy of Camps, whose moral authority as the head of the Valencian government will be further eroded when he stands accused in court.

But the worst of it all is the degradation of political life to which the PP's strategy is leading. Blinded by mere electoral calculation, the contempt that its leaders are showing for democratic institutions and, especially, for the judiciary when its actions are unfavorable to the party's interests, is extremely worrying. A scant service is being done to this country by the party that in 1996 won the general election on an anti-corruption platform.

The politicians of the PP are not the only ones who use a double standard. The Socialists, too, show a disturbing tendency to close ranks around party members who have problems with the law. But the level of effrontery in the PP is such that it threatens to jeopardize the health of Spanish democracy for many years to come.


----------



## Dominika (Jan 22, 2011)

Hi.

I experienced the opposite living in Madrid for two years. Everything needed paper work, contracts, facturas, depositions etc..


----------



## Mr.Blueskies (Feb 24, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> The answer to the last question is Yes. He is an honest straightforward man and a good landlord. One of the reasons we moved from our piso was that the agents were cheats.
> Societies are defined to a great extent by their ethos arising from culture developed over centuries. Not for nothing do we have the phrase 'old Spanish custom'. But developed modern societies cannot work forever on a culture of acceptance of dishonesty. By accepting cheating as a safety valve for lack of an effective and just social and fiscal structure you are presenting the government with a perfect excuse for doing nothing.
> Spain is slowly tackling this culture - half the Mayors along the Costas seem to be banged up in jail, along with councillors and planning officers. That's a start. The Government is committed to tackling corporate tax evasion and has had modest success. In tiime -much time - intolerance of fraud will percolate throughout society. Fish rots from the head down, as the saying goes.
> Every society has an underlying seam of corruption. The main point here is that in Spain this is accepted as a way of 'getting by'. What it does in reality is to impede social and economic progress. Effective societies are based on trust. Few people realise that trust underpins a functioning society. Building trust and integrity takes time and needs a strong lead from above.
> ...


 [Effective societies are based on trust] Well I believe for one that there is very little trust and with very good reason to be found in any country. The only difference that I can personally see between any one country and another is the degree and level of sophistication that the liars, crooks and fraudsters have developed. I would say that they are ALL crooks period. Some are just better at covering their tracks than others. Most only ever go after the little guy. Would never do to upset the pals and the buds plus they all have something on one another which very effectively insures immunity from prosecution.


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Oh dear !
Spain scores poorly in Global Competitiveness report | News | Simply Networking

" The worst aspect in comparitive terms is the lack of efficiency in the labour market, where the country is ranked a miserable 130th " Out of 139!! :nono:


----------



## Mr.Blueskies (Feb 24, 2009)

Hi Gus,

Have you any idea where the irish come in the ratings ? lol If the report is accurate and someone making it wasn't given a brown envelope to improve their score I would guess 139th.

I'm irish by the way.


----------



## Mr.Blueskies (Feb 24, 2009)

Beachcomber said:


> So it's OK for Bob the Bodger to evade his fiscal obligations but not Edward the Entrepreneur. Socialism at its hypocritical best!


 [ All people (pigs) are equal but some are more equal than others]

George Orwell.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

As far as I can see, especially around here, the "black economy" is largely in the hands of the PP and in particular the aldalde and his henchmen/women.


----------



## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Mr.Blueskies said:


> Hi Gus,
> 
> Have you any idea where the irish come in the ratings ? lol If the report is accurate and someone making it wasn't given a brown envelope to improve their score I would guess 139th.
> 
> I'm irish by the way.


This report is in line with others (including the swiss one I posted here last year, and only illustrates a natural extension of Spain's decline. Hopefully at last those who say "its the crisis, just look at the UK, spain will recover" will realise that the spanish problem is a spanish problem, very real and very serious.

The only good thing to be taken from this report is it might stir some revolt from the spanish people but I doubt it 

On a brighter note I think the thing with Ireland is that it has a small population that can react to circumstance and turn it around. It has many attractions for investors and if needs must is best positioned to dump the Euro and attract overseas investment.

My spanish step daughter has a long list of possible jobs requiring spanish in Ireland (thanks to Gus who led me to the opportunities - what a great forum this is ). Most are call centre, sales and/or account management, but they are many and real enough.


----------



## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Mr.Blueskies said:


> Hi Gus, Have you any idea where the irish come in the ratings ?



Ireland are 29th down 4 places on last year.
Spain 42nd down 9 places on last year. 
UK 12th up one place.

Interesting Denmark a big loser and Sweden a big winner! How odd


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

nigele2 said:


> This report is in line with others (including the swiss one I posted here last year, and only illustrates a natural extension of Spain's decline. Hopefully at last those who say "its the crisis, just look at the UK, spain will recover" will realise that the spanish problem is a spanish problem, very real and very serious.
> 
> The only good thing to be taken from this report is it might stir some revolt from the spanish people but I doubt it
> 
> ...



That's good to hear & I'll keep my fingers crossed for her.


----------



## Mr.Blueskies (Feb 24, 2009)

29th  Several brown envelopes must have got handed over.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> As far as I can see, especially around here, the "black economy" is largely in the hands of the PP and in particular the aldalde and his henchmen/women.


Which is why, after meeting our PSOE Mayor, I'm working to help him get reelected.
He is an honest man who uncovered corruption in the Town Hall and reported it. People, some from his own party, were indicted.
As a consequence the PP have targeted him with malicious and unfounded denuncias.
They are throwing lavish public 'free lunches' with paella and beer given away.
Hopefully people will ask where they get the money to pay for all this largesse.


----------

