# UK contributing pension years transferable?



## leehod (Jan 12, 2019)

I will be soon registering as autonomo in Spain and paying into social security here. I believe that after 15 years of this, it would qualify me for a basic pension (50% of max), and each year from that point would take me closer to full amount (upto 35 years to get 100%).

My question is wjhat about the years I have so far towards the UK state pension? Are these just wasted? Since I won't likely hit the 35 years now in the UK, but can I transfer those years existing contributing years into the Spanish pot? or are all my national insurance contributions simply wasted now?

Thanks


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

leehod said:


> ...............or are all my national insurance contributions simply wasted now?
> 
> Thanks


No they are not wasted. There will be a pro-rata payment process. 

Many people have a few years here, a few years there, etc. At the moment you can make a claim in either the last or (it seems) that with a greater contribution. 

However in Spain it is very messy. It is not just a number of years. For example my Spanish wife is being asked by the Spanish authorities to show that her employment was terminated in the UK and that she didn't just stop working. That detail will impact what she gets from Spain.

And who knows what it will look like in the future  But as of now your UK years remain yours and will be taken into account.


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## leehod (Jan 12, 2019)

Taken into account by who though? I only have 10 years, so not even enough for basic UK pension at the moment, so I doubt the UK would even pay me a % of the basic state pension with that few years. As for Spain, would they add my 10 years in the UK to my Spanish contributing years?

I can't quite imagine how it could work such that I'd get some value from those 10 years if I plan to now live in Spain for rest of my days


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

leehod said:


> Taken into account by who though? I only have 10 years, so not even enough for basic UK pension at the moment, so I doubt the UK would even pay me a % of the basic state pension with that few years. As for Spain, would they add my 10 years in the UK to my Spanish contributing years?
> 
> I can't quite imagine how it could work such that I'd get some value from those 10 years if I plan to now live in Spain for rest of my days


The way things are at the moment, but may be screwed up by Brexit, are as follows:


If you wish you can continue to make contributions to your pot in the UK either at Class 2 rate if you are employed or at Class 3 rate if unemployed to get you to what you need for a full pension from UK.
The EU Pension Regulations require you to contact (at pension age) the pensions authority in the country where you last work(ed.) That authority should contact the other pension authorities for the countries where you made pension contributions. A gross pension, taking into account all your contributions in all countries will be calculated and you will get that.


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## leehod (Jan 12, 2019)

OK, thanks.

And what if I'm self-employed (normally class 4 nic). Can I still make UK pension contribs whilst resident in Spain? (not sure it would be a good idea anyway given that I'll be already contributing to spain social security, but just out of interest)


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

leehod said:


> OK, thanks.
> 
> And what if I'm self-employed (normally class 4 nic). Can I still make UK pension contribs whilst resident in Spain? (not sure it would be a good idea anyway given that I'll be already contributing to spain social security, but just out of interest)


UK NIC are Class 1 employed; Class 2 self employed basic; Class 3 unemployed; Class 4 additional self employed based on profits. You can make Class 2 (or 3) contributions to UK depending on whether you are gainfully employed or unemployed respectively. These will all go towards your pension when the time comes and what you have accrued in UK may well make up for any shortfall in Spain.


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## ccm47 (Oct 15, 2013)

Just to emphasise what Baldi said:

Class 2 is what counts for your pension from self-employment. Class 4 is NOT taken into account in the same way. If by any chance you have not paid Class 2 (and in my working life I met a number of people who hadn't) then pay for as many years as you allowed to NOW. There are time limits on how far back you can go. 

Also keep all your official documents. You could be called upon to provide evidence when the time comes. As an example P60s for employees state on them DO NOT DESTROY: they are a backup for when an official disaster occurs. A major fire is always a risk.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

leehod said:


> OK, thanks.
> 
> And what if I'm self-employed (normally class 4 nic). *Can I still make UK pension contribs whilst resident in Spain?* (not sure it would be a good idea anyway given that I'll be already contributing to spain social security, but just out of interest)


*Yes you can still make whats called Voluntary NIC Contributions Abroad - you
can download the booklet & form called - Social Security Abroad published
by HMRC from the Go.uk website*

The beauty of making Voluntary NIC Contributions Abroad which is always at Class 2
is HMRC don't care whether you continued working when you left the UK for
Spain or not - you can still make Voluntary NIC Contributions Abroad even if
your out of work. It works out very reasonable as well - about £155 a year is
the annual Class 2 Voluntary NIC abroad rate.

If you submitted your UK tax returns by self assessment online, in the UK or
even if you were submitting your job searches online, while claiming Jobseekers
Allowance, at a Jobcentre in the UK ( from 2012 onwards ) recently or in the past.
Then you will most likely have been given a UK Government gateway userid
and password.

Using your UK Government gateway userid and password - you can login
via the Gov.uk link.

You can also check the current state of your UK National Insurance contribution
at the Gov.uk link below

UK State Pensions forecast - now available online at Gov.uk

*Therefore there only remains 2 caveats to Spain taking account of the number
of years you were working in the UK and paying towards your UK State Pension
and that's:*

1. Who knows what rules will change from whats called the Euro Pension route
which allowed EU citizens to ask the Spanish Social Security Office to take
account of the number of years they have been living & working in another EU
country to meet the minimum number of years qualification for getting a Spanish
State Pension ( but on the pro rata rate )

As British citizens will no longer be EU citizens after Brexit and the UK will no longer
be a member state of the EU, the EEA, EFTA or any other European reciprocal
agreement club, worthy of the name.

They say that in the event of a Hard Brexit, such things as the Euro Pension route
might be covered in some new form of bilateral agreement between the UK and Spain,
that will allow for the mutual recognition of working years for British citizens who
have been working in Spain to meet the minimum number of years State Pension
entitlement; with the same being applicable for Spanish citizens living & working in
the UK.

But this is all conjecture and watch this space !!

2. As British citizens know the number of years you have built up in National 
Insurance contributions, rarely equates to the actual number of years you have
been working in the UK ( unless you were one of those people who had a
job for life !! )
Thanks to the right to make Voluntary Contributions for lost years due to
periods in full time Education eg University or left work to look after the children
and of course any months or years you were unemployed and signed on at
the Job Centre;where NIC's are still paid but you haven't physically worked
for this NIC entitlement.

Then this could be a stumbling block between you and the Spanish Social
Security Office, if you retire in Spain who ( as far as I'm aware ) still insist 
that Brits provide a verifiable track history of the firms that employed you
in the UK, together with start and end dates of employment and including
any periods you might have been self employed and no doubt those
times you were unemployed as well.

The implication being that Spain will not take at face value that a Brit
who has been paying 38 years worth of NIC contributions and therefore
must have been working for 38 years in full time employment.

Speaking personally I cannot say what happens to the British applicant if
Spain discounts any years he or she was out of work or unemployed from
their NIC record and 38 years is whittled down to 30 years of physical
employment. Although with such an example it would make no difference
but for those who have had problems maintaining a continuous track
history of employment in the UK since leaving school, this could be
a stumbling block.


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## uk03878 (Jul 4, 2018)

Williams2 said:


> *Yes you can still make whats called Voluntary NIC Contributions Abroad - you
> can download the booklet & form called - Social Security Abroad published
> by HMRC from the Go.uk website*
> 
> ...


Now that's interesting as if I read that right ..
I currently pay for my partner in the UK £15 a week class 3s as she has finished work and lives the life of leisure (well renovating the house to be quite honest) but doesnt have enough years for the full state pension
If I move abroad - I only have to pay £155 per year for the same thing basically?


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

uk03878 said:


> Now that's interesting as if I read that right ..
> I currently pay for my partner in the UK £15 a week class 3s as she has finished work and lives the life of leisure (well renovating the house to be quite honest) but doesnt have enough years for the full state pension
> If I move abroad - I only have to pay £155 per year for the same thing basically?


Phone HMRC if you don't believe me and ask them how much it will be to continue
paying Voluntary British National Insurance contributions abroad when 
resident abroad. For the last 3 years including the current tax year it's:

Tax year 2016-17 -- £153.40 - voluntary class 2 NIC abroad
Tax year 17-18 ---- £148.20 - voluntary class 2 NIC abroad
Tax year 18-19 ---- £153.40 - voluntary class 2 NIC abroad

So £153.40 works out at £2.95 a week.

Of course they have no figures for what it will be next tax year but like you say
it's far cheaper than paying Voluntary NI in the UK and very handy for those
people who moved abroad but haven't built up enough NIC's to get the Full
State Pension when they retire.


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## vikingred (Jan 5, 2019)

I checked my pension through gov.uk and was stated that I would receive £106 per week when I reach pension age in 13 years time. I have the option to pay £7000 pounds which will then entitle me to a full UK pension. I think I will do this when I sell up in Norway this year and move to my new home in Spain. I will have 12 years of contributions in Norway and will check what, if anything, I will receive at age of retirement?


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## Nomoss (Nov 25, 2016)

vikingred said:


> I checked my pension through gov.uk and was stated that I would receive £106 per week when I reach pension age in 13 years time. I have the option to pay £7000 pounds which will then entitle me to a full UK pension. I think I will do this when I sell up in Norway this year and move to my new home in Spain. I will have 12 years of contributions in Norway and will check what, if anything, I will receive at age of retirement?


With the present uncertaincy it is probably advisable to pay up to get the full UK pension, if you can afford to do so.

Find out if your years in Norway will entitle you to at least a part pension from there, or if not, whether you can top up with voluntary contributions to get at least some return for them.

For Brits moving to Spain, as in the OP's case:

If the UK leaves the EU, this will probably remove the possibility of your UK years contributing to the qualifying years for a Span pension, so you may have no possibility of completing 15 years in the Span system. You will probably be better off paying voluntary contributions in the UK and working informally in Spain, if you can get away with it.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Nomoss said:


> With the present uncertaincy it is probably advisable to pay up to get the full UK pension, if you can afford to do so.
> 
> Find out if your years in Norway will entitle you to at least a part pension from there, or if not, whether you can top up with voluntary contributions to get at least some return for them.
> 
> ...


Are you saying that post Brexit UK contributions will no longer count?


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## vikingred (Jan 5, 2019)

Nomoss said:


> With the present uncertaincy it is probably advisable to pay up to get the full UK pension, if you can afford to do so.
> 
> Find out if your years in Norway will entitle you to at least a part pension from there, or if not, whether you can top up with voluntary contributions to get at least some return for them.
> 
> ...


Was always my plan to top up my UK contributions so that I get a full pension at 67 and will also check to see what my contributions will net me from my 12 working years in Norway?

Thanks for taking the trouble to reply...


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## Nomoss (Nov 25, 2016)

Megsmum said:


> Are you saying that post Brexit UK contributions will no longer count?


Under EU rules years worked in one or more EU countries can be added to those worked in other countries in order to make up the number of "qualifying years" required to entitle one to a pension from any particular country.

After Brexit, "hard" or "soft", in the absence of an agreement covering the continuation of this, or some other arrangement, this will no longer be the case, as the UK will no longer be an EU country.

I am saying that after the UK leaves the EU that there is no reason for them to be bound by any current EU rules, and certainly not for an unlimited future, although there might be some agreement such as counting years worked in other countries before  Brexit.

EDIT: I'm referring to UK years counting in EU countries and vice-versa. Not to years in, say, Norway counting in, say, Spain.

I'm also hoping that pensions already being paid on the basis of aggregated years inluding years for UK, like mine, 50:50 UK and Spain, will not be affected.:fingerscrossed:


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## Nomoss (Nov 25, 2016)

vikingred said:


> Was always my plan to top up my UK contributions so that I get a full pension at 67 and will also check to see *what my contributions will net me from my 12 working years in Norway?*
> 
> Thanks for taking the trouble to reply...


Good idea to do so now. Maybe you can make voluntary contributions there.

But, take care, UK allows voluntary contributions only provided voluntary contributions are not being made in another country.

If this were to be ignored, they could probably find out when final pensions are calculated, although if there is no further coordination between countries that might no longer happen


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## Nomoss (Nov 25, 2016)

vikingred said:


> Was always my plan to top up my UK contributions so that I get a full pension at 67 and will also check to see what my contributions will net me from my 12 working years in Norway?
> 
> Thanks for taking the trouble to reply...


I just remembered that in your first post you said you could get a full UK pension by (back)paying a lump sum.

Think about the rules about the number of years for a full pension changing before you claim yours.

When I claimed mine they wanted 44 years payments for a full pension.

A year or two later, this was reduced to 30 years, and still later, increased to 35 years, the current figure.

So if the Chancellor gets a bit short he might increase the years required again.

Having "x" qualifying UK years, when the years were decreased to 30, I phoned and asked if I was now entitled to x/30 of a full pension instead of the current x/44, an increase of 47%. They thought that was a big joke.

Anyway, if you were to (back)pay a lump sum to the UK, you would not be breaking any rules by subsequently making voluntary payments to Norway (if similar rules apply there), and if the UK increases the number of years for a full pension, you could stop making the Norway payments long enough to pay another lump sum to the UK lot.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Nomoss said:


> Under EU rules years worked in one or more EU countries can be added to those worked in other countries in order to make up the number of "qualifying years" required to entitle one to a pension from any particular country.
> 
> After Brexit, "hard" or "soft", in the absence of an agreement covering the continuation of this, or some other arrangement, this will no longer be the case, as the UK will no longer be an EU country.
> 
> ...


Well, I suspect there will be an agreement , it would be grossly unfair if my 35 years wiped wipes off the face of the earth or DOH I’m being dim sorry. I’ll still claim my YK pension of 35 years. My Spanish pension will only have ten years so, I can retire under Spanish pension but get nothing under your scenario


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## Nomoss (Nov 25, 2016)

Megsmum said:


> Well, I suspect there will be an agreement , it would be grossly unfair if my 35 years wiped wipes off the face of the earth or DOH I’m being dim sorry. I’ll still claim my YK pension of 35 years. My Spanish pension will only have ten years so, I can retire under Spanish pension but get nothing under your scenario


I assume you mean that, if you retire in Spain you'll get your UK pension but won't have enough years in for a Spanish one.

I suppose the minimum for Spain is still 15 years or so?

If there is some agreement, I would hope it should be at least that UK years before Brexit are counted as qualifying years for EU countries, and vice versa of course.


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## vikingred (Jan 5, 2019)

Nomoss said:


> I just remembered that in your first post you said you could get a full UK pension by (back)paying a lump sum.
> 
> Think about the rules about the number of years for a full pension changing before you claim yours.
> 
> ...


I will investigate everything regarding the UK and Norwegian side. My friend and colleague here in Norway actually gets a UK pension of about £200 per month paid to Norway and subject to tax, and also qualified for a minimum Norwegian pension of almost £1500 per month with tax deducted also. Sounds quite decent but doesn't stretch too far in Norway. In Spain however it can go a long way...


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