# Costa del Sol: Last Brits Standing



## tarot650

Costa Del Sol: The Last Brits Standing - the end of an expat dream? | Television & radio | The Guardian

One off documentary you can catch up on BBC iplayer.Some of you might watch it and some of you might not.This shows how the dream has turned sour.Must say I did feel sorry for the pensioner who has got alzheimers as stuck in limb because they couldn't sell their villa.Some of the youngsters should watch it then they will realise how dire work is.Regards.SB.


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## Pesky Wesky

soulboy said:


> Costa Del Sol: The Last Brits Standing - the end of an expat dream? | Television & radio | The Guardian
> 
> One off documentary you can catch up on BBC iplayer.Some of you might watch it and some of you might not.This shows how the dream has turned sour.Must say I did feel sorry for the pensioner who has got alzheimers as stuck in limb because they couldn't sell their villa.Some of the youngsters should watch it then they will realise how dire work is.Regards.SB.


Apart from the fact I can't watch on the BBC I don't think I've got the stomach for it soulboy!
Love this part of the article, adding another log onto the to the immigrant/ expat fire!


> In 24-Hour Square, the locals look on disapprovingly. Brits, they grumble, behave badly, don’t integrate and are “notorious slags”. On the other hand, the Brits struggle to see themselves as immigrants. “They look at us like we’re their Polish,” says Dave, a man who has variously been a prize fighter, plasterer, bailiff and debt collector (“Same as bailiff but one was legal, the other one wasn’t”).


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## Veronica

My sister lived on the Costa del sol for many years and I have very fond memories of the many holidays we had visiting her. However she left there 20 years ago because she didn't like the way it was changing. 
My husband and I intended to move there because we loved it so much but decided that due to the high crime rate there (my sister was robbed 3 times despite bars at doors and windows and 3 large dogs) we would come to Cyprus instead. Don't regret it for one minute


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## tarot650

Very much appreciate what you are saying PW.The only reason I watched it got a phone call last night off the other halfs mother telling us it was on.In some respects I am glad i watched it as it made me realise why we sold up on the coast and moved inland and it's give us a far better lifestyle and we feel more integrated with the Spanish people then we ever did on the coast.Have one or two happy memories of the coast but they are few and far between.And Veronica we did look at Cyprus before we moved to Spain as had a friend Roy Meredith from Preston who moved over there doing fishing holidays and he wanted us to join him but being stuck on an island was not for us.Regards.SB.


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## Rabbitcat

Sobering stuff but well worth watching


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## mrypg9

Life is what you make it wherever you are and it depends on who you are. There are Brits living inland in villages I wouldn't let past my doorstep and Brits on the Costas I feel the same about. No way does that bilious piece reflect my experiences or that of the few Brits I know here. Of course there are brash vulgar resorts on all the Costas - anyone visited Blackpool or Great Yarmouth lately? Same ambience with sun - but Spaniards like them too.

The piece represents everything I have come to loathe and despise about the Guardian. Sneering, contemptous tone - note the 'leatherette' - proles can't afford leather - and the photo of the grotesque Brit to illustrate it. Let's all make fun of the proles, we superior types who holiday in Provence or Tuscany. 

You don't have to live in some fly-blown pueblo to 'integrate'. It may surprise some to learn that you can actually speak fluent Spanish, have more Spanish friends than British, join in with local activities and live in...yes, shock horror...BENIDORM

People choose to live on the CdS or any Costa for many reasons. We came here planning to look around inland but after a few weeks by the sea in a quiet village we decided we'd stay here near to my son's property. It suits us. Some live inland through choice, others for financial reasons. People's behaviour doesn't depend on where they choose to live,, it depends on personality, education, general conduct towards others.

We are still standing, on the CdS, no thoughts of moving anywhere other than a few km down the road. Of course no tv producer could make an interesting programme about Brits abroad without the stock characters: overweight, underdressed, drunken, vulgar, semi-literate...We're not that interesting.
There are programmes like that about Cyprus...and Ibiza....and places in Turkey. Anywhere with a cheap and cheerful reputation and destination of choice for those package holidays for the undiscerning.
San Antonio is not Ibiza. Aya Napia is not Cyprus. 
To portray everyone who lives on the CdS or any of the Costas, come to that,as a fat, ill-dressed(if dressed at all) drunken, burger-chewing slob is sheer snobbery and says more about the producers of the programme and writer of the Guardian piece than the people it so scurrilously portrays.


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## Pazcat

Big Dave was a delightful chappy

"The fattest man I have ever seen" according to one Spaniard.


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## mrypg9

Incidentally, can you imagine a Guardian journalist writing a sneering piece like that about Polish immigrants in the UK? Some of them get drunk on cheap vodka, wear untrendy clothes, are overweight...
Seems it's OK to patronise and mock British immigrants of the 'lower orders' type ....
Racism!!!


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## Rabbitcat

So did you enjoy the programme or not.....?


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## Chopera

Agree with Mary completely. I haven't seen the BBC programme but I read the Guardian piece yesterday and found the way it was written to be more offensive than the stories it told about a few Brits on the CDS. Sometimes it really does seem that nowadays the white working class are the only people it's acceptable to make bigoted generalisations about.


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## Pesky Wesky

I'd be far more interested in seeing a more balanced view of the CDS which includes Bronte and Dave, but also 
Mary and Sandra 

And an ex colleague of mine Vicki (Spanish) and her husband. Victoria was brought up in Benidorm and visits family there as often as possible. 

Also Mercedes whose daughter, English husband (and his mother and father) and grand daughter live there. John, Mara and the grand daughter are all fluent in Spanish/ English - Merce and the English laws aren't.

Normal people living normal lives and enjoying CDS


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## Pazcat

Well they did ask nicely.

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/expat-media-research-requests/417697-ex-pats-fuengirola.html

Nothing stopping people from volunteering.


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## Pesky Wesky

On youtube


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## Pesky Wesky

Pazcat said:


> Well they did ask nicely.
> 
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/expat-media-research-requests/417697-ex-pats-fuengirola.html
> 
> Nothing stopping people from volunteering.


They probably only take the people they want, the people that will put the slant they want to give to the programme.


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## Horlics

mrypg9 said:


> The piece represents everything I have come to loathe and despise about the Guardian. Sneering, contemptous tone - note the 'leatherette' - proles can't afford leather - and the photo of the grotesque Brit to illustrate it. Let's all make fun of the proles, we superior types who holiday in Provence or Tuscany.


Spot on. One of the commenters called them out like this, which I thought was superb:

"I always find it interesting how a shaven headed, tracksuit wearing former tradesman from Essex, with slightly unacceptable political beliefs living on the Costa del Sol is always perceived by Guardianistas to be a ****ing national disgrace, yet a shaven headed, tracksuit wearing tradesman from Katowice, with similar, slightly unacceptable political beliefs living in Maidstone is 'enriching our community.'"


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## Pazcat

I can't argue with that, I would say they have a clear idea of the type of people they are after.
To be fair though it wasn't just Dave and Bronte, there was the old couples story which was completely different and heartbreaking and probably an important story to tell, maybe there could of been more of them.


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## Isobella

Those programmes aren't interested in average ordinary people and probably average normal people wouldn't be interested in appearing on TV. The young women shown aren't exactly expats either most just hang around for the tourist season and 24 hour square is mainly used by holidaymakers including Dutch and German.

Calahonda is a one off, all purpose built and is full of British but the rest of the CDS are are also working towns with an average of 75% residents still Spanish. There are a lot of inland pueblos that have 30 or 40 per cent British!

If that bar owner gets any fatter he won't be able to walk.


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## Pesky Wesky

Pazcat said:


> I can't argue with that, I would say they have a clear idea of the type of people they are after.
> To be fair though it wasn't just Dave and Bronte, there was the old couples story which was completely different and heartbreaking and probably an important story to tell, maybe there could of been more of them.


Yes, I haven't seen the programme, but will try watching it tonight.
We've got friends coming to stay tomorrow and I'm supposed to be cleaning. Not getting very far...


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## labob

Like Chopera (autocorrect calls you cholera) I read the comments and was pleased to see the vast majority calling out the sneering tone of the article. I think I've watched too many Charlie Brooker wipes and want to know who made the doc, I'm betting it wasn't Horizon. Although I'd like to see a Johnathan Meades version.

Of course they're going for the characters happy retirees on a Spanish course and getting on with their neighbours isn't as interesting to the general public.


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## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> On youtube
> Costa del Sol Last Brits Standing BBC Documentary 2015 - YouTube


Thanks PW, I will watch it before making a comment.

Meanwhile up in Salou, near Barcelona, we have the annual arrival of 9,000 British university students for a week-long drinking binge disguised as a sports festival. This year they wrecked a local football stadium during one of their "parties" and and have been banned from using it in future. We have the usual TV footage of locals complaining about them vomiting in the streets and peeing in doorways, but it brings in €5 million to the local economy. That's an awful lot of booze!

http://www.lasexta.com/noticias/soc...adio-desperfectos-causados_2015033000347.html


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## Alcalaina

Just watched it and I found it very interesting, and nothing like as judgmental as the Guardian article. It presented just four case studies, and I've no idea how typical they are. 

One, the aforementioned fat Dave, was running a British restaurant called Hardy's, which appeared to be staffed by family members. His view was that the Spanish were riding around on donkeys before the Brits arrived and now thanks to "us" they have flash cars. He claimed to be enjoying life in Spain but faces a prison sentence if he returns to the UK.

The young girl, Bronte, had been working in a bar at night and had to ring her dad to get the airfare home because the bar was closing for the winter. She seemed quite sad at the thought of leaving, even though she was sharing a one-bed flat with six others. As she said, what is there for me in the UK?

An ex swimming pool salesman called Colin had lost all his savings in a failed business venture but, ever the optimist, he hopes to make a good living giving dancing lessons to British pensioners. He has a lovely flat in an urb that is empty most of the year, which is a bit sad.

Finally there was an elderly couple and their son, living in a villa which they can't sell, desperate to return to the UK and blaming the government for everything. Elsie is in a wheelchair having had a stroke, and has dementia. Eventually they went to a council-run centre for foreigners in Mijas, and discovered they might be entitled to some home help.

The programme title clearly shows they were out to reinforce the stereotype of decay and failed dreams on the CdS. There were lots of shots of half-finished empty buildings and boarded-up bars, and taxi drivers talking about how much the Brits drink. No doubt these things exist, but they wouldn't have been interested in making a programme about the vast majority of British immigrants in Spain who don't conform to that stereotype.

However we on this forum all know that there is far more to Spain than a tiny coastal strip on the Med, and far more to the Costa del Sol than Benalmádena and Fuengirola. 

I can't help contrasting it with the excellent Spanish series _Españoles en el Mundo_, which explores the lives of Spanish immigrants living abroad. Why do the Brits always want to do themselves down? Sadly, I have to agree with the comment above that the "proles" are the only group in society that it's still OK to sneer at.


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## extranjero

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, I haven't seen the programme, but will try watching it tonight.
> We've got friends coming to stay tomorrow and I'm supposed to be cleaning. Not getting very far...


Is it on again tonight, if so, what time, or are you watching it on Inplayer? 
If so, how do you do that in Spain?


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## tarot650

extranjero said:


> Is it on again tonight, if so, what time, or are you watching it on Inplayer?
> If so, how do you do that in Spain?








If you are on your computer download expat shield and run it and then you will be able to access iplayer.The link above is on youtube.Apologies PW did not realise you had already put the link on.It's a shame there is no way of getting hold of a series that was on Channel 4,maybe 15 or 16years ago called Viva España which followed a more sensible type of person.Bit early but hope you all enjoy Semana Santa.Regards.SB.


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## extranjero

Thanks -enjoyed the programme.
Don't like the fact that many Spaniards think we are sponging off their NHS though.
Elsie was lucky to have a help centre near her
They will certainly need a few more of those in the coming years.
At least Big Dave was trying his best.


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## 90199

I watched the video, somewhat depressing, and thankfully, so much different to our world.


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## Alcalaina

extranjero said:


> Thanks -enjoyed the programme.
> Don't like the fact that many Spaniards think we are sponging off their NHS though.
> Elsie was lucky to have a help centre near her
> They will certainly need a few more of those in the coming years.
> At least Big Dave was trying his best.


They should have mentioned that the British government pays Spain for pensioners' healthcare when they register with S1. 

I've never met a Spanish person who thought we were "sponging", and I wouldn't worry too much about what taxi drivers say. There are a lot of similar myths about EU immigrants in the UK too.

As for Big Dave I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. How can you run a restaurant in Spain without knowing the words for 'fresh' and 'frozen'?


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## thrax

I haven't had the pleasure of viewing this yet but I recall a few years ago another program on a similar theme which claimed more expats had returned to UK than in fact had ever been here. Also a figure recently stated was 90000 British expats had returned to UK in the last year. This figure, in fact, came from the restructuring of the Padrons and simply recorded the number of all (not just Brits) expats who had not registered on the Padron in the last 10 years. It didn't go so far as to state which of those had simply moved to a different area and of course would not include those who had never registered or had forgotten to re-register.


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## Justina

I only watched it cos I read the piece in the Guardian this morning, which by the way reads more and more like the Daily Wail these days. Just a load of stereotype stuff that has been done before. 
How many small businesses like Dave's can sustain three adult generations of one family? if they had paid into the Spanish Social Security system, then, come the tougher months, they would have been able to collect their benefits, as many waiters do.
I could say something about the lady with dementia. The family seemed to have been out there, or rather here, for many years. Did they really have to wait for help from a foreign residents' association? The son mentioned that they lived on his parents' pension. He looks a youngish man, go home and find a job. The sister seemed not to live in Spain just came when she could.
The jazz man seemed happy enough and had a good idea going, although doubt if he would ever make enough to retire on.
The taxi drivers were just twits.
The young girls seemed fine and had enjoyed themselves. They are young and will find something elsewhere.


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## baldilocks

soulboy said:


> Very much appreciate what you are saying PW.The only reason I watched it got a phone call last night off the other halfs mother telling us it was on.In some respects I am glad i watched it as it made me realise why we sold up on the coast and moved inland and it's give us a far better lifestyle and we feel more integrated with the Spanish people then we ever did on the coast.


Didn't see it but from what you are saying, we made the right choice and opted for a village inland.


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## Horlics

I think conversations about what people give and take to and from a country have got a lot easier now that so many Spanish are in the UK. I meet people fairly often whose kids are working out of Spain, and many of them are in the UK. It's changed their minds about other places, I think.

Example, I was looking at a site to arrange a language intercambio and half of those on there were preparing ahead of leaving for England.



Alcalaina said:


> They should have mentioned that the British government pays Spain for pensioners' healthcare when they register with S1.
> 
> I've never met a Spanish person who thought we were "sponging", and I wouldn't worry too much about what taxi drivers say. There are a lot of similar myths about EU immigrants in the UK too.
> 
> As for Big Dave I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. How can you run a restaurant in Spain without knowing the words for 'fresh' and 'frozen'?


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## Horlics

I watched it and thought it was dreadful. No coincidence that the opening scenes were of half built buildings under grey skies. Well done guys, you have to wait around a while for weather like that, but I am sure you were determined.

They should get themselves up to a place I called home for many years, Blackpool. Make a programme about how **** that place is. Oh yes, they already have,

Awful people making awful negative programmes about those for whom life is doing no favours, for consumption by those who wish to spend an hour sneering at benefit cheats, unlucky expats, etc.

Thankfully there are some very talented created people who make marvellous works for us to watch, look at, touch, read, and so on. And there are also those who work for the producer of this ****.


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## mrypg9

Horlics said:


> I watched it and thought it was dreadful. No coincidence that the opening scenes were of half built buildings under grey skies. Well done guys, you have to wait around a while for weather like that, but I am sure you were determined.
> 
> They should get themselves up to a place I called home for many years, Blackpool. Make a programme about how **** that place is. Oh yes, they already have,
> 
> Awful people making awful negative programmes about those for whom life is doing no favours, for consumption by those who wish to spend an hour sneering at benefit cheats, unlucky expats, etc.
> 
> Thankfully there are some very talented created people who make marvellous works for us to watch, look at, touch, read, and so on. And there are also those who work for the producer of this ****.


Well said. I watched it and regretted the time spent doing so. It reminded me of a programme I saw a few weeks back, 'Meet the UKIPPERs'. Same sneering tone, same picking on a few obviously atypical UKIP activists in Folkestone, I think it was.
I've no time for UKIP but it is a legitimate political party and in its way it voices the general feelings of unease and exclusion rightly or wrongly felt by many white working class people in run down towns all over Britain.
As Chopera and others have said, the white working class is all too often either ridiculed, pwtronised or ignored by the 'right-on' media.
Who speaks for them? Certainly not Miliband's metrosexual Labour Party. Certainly not the deluded hard left would- be revolutionaries.
Is it any surprise that people turn to UKIP or the EDL for that matter...
The programme was simply dreadful. I can only assume that those who made it are jealous of we Costa dwellers...maybe it poured with rain the last time they were in their hill top palazzos in Umbria.


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## Roy C

I haven't watched it yet and for someone who will be moving to Spain to live in the not so distant future. I wonder should I give it a miss, although I know I won't.


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## missysky

just to let you know ´that bar owner´ has lost 7 stone, your more than likely ugly at least he can lose weight !!!!


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## missysky

Justina said:


> I only watched it cos I read the piece in the Guardian this morning, which by the way reads more and more like the Daily Wail these days. Just a load of stereotype stuff that has been done before.
> How many small businesses like Dave's can sustain three adult generations of one family? if they had paid into the Spanish Social Security system, then, come the tougher months, they would have been able to collect their benefits, as many waiters do.
> I could say something about the lady with dementia. The family seemed to have been out there, or rather here, for many years. Did they really have to wait for help from a foreign residents' association? The son mentioned that they lived on his parents' pension. He looks a youngish man, go home and find a job. The sister seemed not to live in Spain just came when she could.
> The jazz man seemed happy enough and had a good idea going, although doubt if he would ever make enough to retire on.
> The taxi drivers were just twits.
> The young girls seemed fine and had enjoyed themselves. They are young and will find something elsewhere.




Fact...Dave´s family are all on contract at the bar and therefore all pay into the Spanish system and are fortunate enough not to have to claim as the business is strong enough to support them all


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## mrypg9

extranjero said:


> Thanks -enjoyed the programme.
> Don't like the fact that many Spaniards think we are sponging off their NHS though.
> Elsie was lucky to have a help centre near her
> They will certainly need a few more of those in the coming years.
> At least Big Dave was trying his best.


The UK Government pays the regional governments each year for health care for each British immigrant who becomes resident in Spain, doesn't it? Not sure but I think it's around £2-3k annually per person.


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## mrypg9

missysky said:


> just to let you know ´that bar owner´ has lost 7 stone, your more than likely ugly at least he can lose weight !!!!


But to be fat AND ugly.....


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## MrSam

mrypg9 said:


> Well said. I watched it and regretted the time spent doing so. It reminded me of a programme I saw a few weeks back, 'Meet the UKIPPERs'. *Same sneering tone*, same picking on a few obviously atypical UKIP activists in Folkestone, I think it was.
> I've no time for UKIP but it is a legitimate political party and in its way it voices the general feelings of unease and exclusion rightly or wrongly felt by many white working class people in run down towns all over Britain.
> As Chopera and others have said, the white working class is all too often either ridiculed, pwtronised or ignored by the 'right-on' media.
> Who speaks for them? Certainly not Miliband's metrosexual Labour Party. Certainly not the deluded hard left would- be revolutionaries.
> Is it any surprise that people turn to UKIP or the EDL for that matter...
> The programme was simply dreadful. I can only assume that those who made it are jealous of we Costa dwellers...maybe it poured with rain the last time they were in their hill top palazzos in Umbria.


I watched it as well and didn't pick up any 'sneering tone' at all. I'm not living in Spain, so don't have any emotional connection that may possibly cloud my perception. From my viewpoint I saw a reasonably balanced production, focusing on four different experiences. Certainly nothing to suggest that the producer was 'jealous' of people living on CdS - where did you get that from? Two of the characters were making a decent go of their life in Spain, despite the problems they were having or had had in the past. The young girls had managed to survive for three years and good on them, it can't have been easy. The retired couple were battling a serious deterioration in their health and provided a real-life example of circumstances that have been posited to would-be expats on this very board on many occasions that I can recall. So, all in all, from my point of view, it was a well produced documentary. I don't doubt that there are many expats/immigrants that don't fit the image portrayed by this film, but that doesn't detract from its veracity.


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## Leper

I didn't see the programme and can make my mind up only on what I read here. Fortunately, this kind of forum is more accurate than any tv programme. When you watch any kind of documentary or media piece the first rule is that the writer is giving his/her view of a situation at that point in time. If the piece can be beefed up to attract more attention, then the writer progresses within the media. The truth is often left behind.

But, it is no harm to show how life in Spain is having "a not good" affect on some. Living the Dream demands effort, money and cop-on. Unfortunately, these are in short supply to many who when they arrive leave their brains back in Stansted.


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## mrypg9

MrSam said:


> I watched it as well and didn't pick up any 'sneering tone' at all. I'm not living in Spain, so don't have any emotional connection that may possibly cloud my perception. From my viewpoint I saw a reasonably balanced production, focusing on four different experiences. Certainly nothing to suggest that the producer was 'jealous' of people living on CdS - where did you get that from? Two of the characters were making a decent go of their life in Spain, despite the problems they were having or had had in the past. The young girls had managed to survive for three years and good on them, it can't have been easy. The retired couple were battling a serious deterioration in their health and provided a real-life example of circumstances that have been posited to would-be expats on this very board on many occasions that I can recall. So, all in all, from my point of view, it was a well produced documentary. I don't doubt that there are many expats/immigrants that don't fit the image portrayed by this film, but that doesn't detract from its veracity.


The 'veracity' may have applied to the four people the programme focused on but that's as far as it went. But no way was there any balance in that programme. It set out to do a hatchet job, for some reason.
The programme concentrated on two locations on the CDS, Benalmadena and Calahonda. Both are popular with British immigrants....but the vast majority of those living there have lives very far removed from the four unfortunates the programme chose as 'representative'. I have a friend who lives in Benalmadena, a retired teacher, lives in a smart apartment, no money worries, never goes to ' Twenty- Four Hour Square', speaks fluent Spanish.....of zero interest to any tv producer but I can assure you far more typical of most Brits here.
Then the other town focused on, Calahonda....I have never been there but it has a reputation as being rather 'downmarket'. I don't know if that's true or not but I'm sure there are many happy, well- adjusted Brits there with no intention of leaving, ever.
Then this focusing on roast dinners....Not my personal taste but since when have people's eating habits been an indicator of anything? You know, Poles and other immigrants in the UK open and patronize delis cafes and restaurants where they can enjoy their native food. It's what some people do.
Thirty minutes drive down the coast you come to Marbella, world apart from the two places in the film. Smart, wealthy, thriving...further south there's Estepona, quiet, middle- class, Spanish.
I live in a small, mainly Spanish, very quiet coastal village between Marbella and Estepona. No Brontes, no Fat Daves, maybe a Colin somewhere and many elderly Spanish with health problems. No night life apart from one bar that stays open until two or three a.m. for a mixture of people of all ages but no drunks, no roasts, no bacon and egg breakfasts. Far removed from what we saw in that film and therefore unlikely to be featured in any 'documentary' about the CDS which does deal in veracity.


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## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> The 'veracity' may have applied to the four people the programme focused on but that's as far as it went. But no way was there any balance in that programme.


there was no balance, it's true

but I have to say I recognised the family who run the bar, the girls who had to return to the UK & the formerly high flying guy who was trying to make a living giving dance classes

all are duplicated here, right down to hardly knowing a word of Spanish even after living here & running a business here for years! 

but of course not everyone is like that - thankfully


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## baldilocks

I haven't watched all of it, but rather than give an accurate picture of Spain it gave a more accurate picture of some of the Brits who give the CdS a bad name.


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## BeardedWanderers

We watched this documentary last night. It didn't put us off getting a place there, it just confirmed that we want to live inland a little and away from the Blackpool style resorts. So if there's a sniff of 'Sunday Roast' or 'Full English Breakfasts' themed restaurants, we will be moving on.


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## mrypg9

BeardedWanderers said:


> We watched this documentary last night. It didn't put us off getting a place there, it just confirmed that we want to live inland a little and away from the Blackpool style resorts. So if there's a sniff of 'Sunday Roast' or 'Full English Breakfasts' themed restaurants, we will be moving on.


You will find those and German and Irish themed restaurants inland too, you know.
And Brits, and Germans, and Scandinavians, Russians, Chinese immigrants. It takes more than an English themed restaurant or the presence of immigrants to spoil the ambience of an attractive village or town. 

I don't like Benalmadena, Torremolinos, Mijas and other places but no way can they be described as 'Blackpool style resorts'. Actually, very many Spaniards spend and very much enjoy holidays in places like that.


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## BeardedWanderers

mrypg9 said:


> You will find those and German and Irish themed restaurants inland too, you know. And Brits, and Germans, and Scandinavians, Russians, Chinese immigrants. It takes more than an English themed restaurant or the presence of immigrants to spoil the ambience of an attractive village or town. I don't like Benalmadena, Torremolinos, Mijas and other places but no way can they be described as 'Blackpool style resorts'. Actually, very many Spaniards spend and very much enjoy holidays in places like that.


We're looking for a more relaxed community feel, some pals have bought in land in a town called Lubrin, mainly Spanish and it seems to have a really nice vibe. Our aim is to initially buy for a holiday bolt hole but with a long term view of retiring there. Learn the language with a degree of fluency and become part of the community. Could anyone recommend some 'non Blackpool' areas in the South?


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## Justina

*Tele*



baldilocks said:


> I haven't watched all of it, but rather than give an accurate picture of Spain it gave a more accurate picture of some of the Brits who give the CdS a bad name.


I really don't think that the programme gave even the Brits a bad name.
There was a hard working family making a living. The dance man was working hard and even the young girls all seemed cheerful and sober. One of the taxi drivers was very dismissive of the girls saying that they smelt of booze. As they had been working all night in a bar, they probably did smell of booze.


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## Rabbitcat

To be fair they couldn't even stand up to get out to the taxi, it's not the smell of booze that does that!!!


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## Justina

*Spanish*



BeardedWanderers said:


> We're looking for a more relaxed community feel, some pals have bought in land in a town called Lubrin, mainly Spanish and it seems to have a really nice vibe. Our aim is to initially buy for a holiday bolt hole but with a long term view of retiring there. Learn the language with a degree of fluency and become part of the community. Could anyone recommend some 'non Blackpool' areas in the South?[/QUOTe
> Why don't you start learning the language now? Most of us aren't natural linguists and have to start from scratch.


----------



## Justina

I think I tuned out just before the end, so missed that bit. I did see the pretty one crying at leaving, but assumed it was due to sadness.


----------



## Rabbitcat

Think it was a mixture of sadness and Smirnoff. But hey we were all young once

They weren't work shy, gave it a go and had a good couple of years. Actually felt sorry for them as there they were at 19, no job in Spain and little chance back in UK either


----------



## Alcalaina

MrSam said:


> I watched it as well and didn't pick up any 'sneering tone' at all. I'm not living in Spain, so don't have any emotional connection that may possibly cloud my perception. From my viewpoint I saw a reasonably balanced production, focusing on four different experiences. Certainly nothing to suggest that the producer was 'jealous' of people living on CdS - where did you get that from? Two of the characters were making a decent go of their life in Spain, despite the problems they were having or had had in the past. The young girls had managed to survive for three years and good on them, it can't have been easy. The retired couple were battling a serious deterioration in their health and provided a real-life example of circumstances that have been posited to would-be expats on this very board on many occasions that I can recall. So, all in all, from my point of view, it was a well produced documentary. I don't doubt that there are many expats/immigrants that don't fit the image portrayed by this film, but that doesn't detract from its veracity.


No, I didn't detect a sneering tone in the programme, but there definitely was in the Guardian review of it.

The thing is that whenever the British media portrray expats living in Spain they resort to a negative, "it's all gone pearshaped" cliche, where Living the Dream has turned into a nightmare. There have been endless documentaries and newspaper articles on similar lines over the past few years. Also they rarely look beyond the Britzone regions around Fuengirola and Benidorm. We have a good laugh about these cliches here on the forum but it's a shame if it puts other people off.


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> No, I didn't detect a sneering tone in the programme, but there definitely was in the Guardian review of it.
> 
> The thing is that whenever the British media portrray expats living in Spain they resort to a negative, "it's all gone pearshaped" cliche, where Living the Dream has turned into a nightmare. There have been endless documentaries and newspaper articles on similar lines over the past few years. Also they rarely look beyond the Britzone regions around Fuengirola and Benidorm. We have a good laugh about these cliches here on the forum but it's a shame if it puts other people off.


I thought that both the programme and the Guardian piece were patronizing, sneering and condescending.
The editing of the film, the pointless shot of a woman riding a donkey ('Auntie Olive' according to the Guardian), the focusing on roasts and drunken tourists, the comments from the Spaniards who,despite their stated distaste of it seemed comfortable enough in Twenty- Four Hour Square...all designed to put down these uppity proles who really shouldn't have been allowed to leave Essex...

I enjoy my life in Spain but the one thing that irks me are people who deride those who don't share their narrow views of how life should be lived in Spain. Spain is now a modern, middle- class European country, open to all and like the UK has many immigrants of many nationalities who choose for reasons of their own to live on the coast, inland, in the mountains, in Madrid, wherever.
I have never found in any other country such judgmental attitudes towards people's lifestyles and choices.
If you don't like Calahonda...don't go there. Leave it to those who do. If you want 'authenticity', try some remote village in Peru....


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Have just watched the first bit with Dave and some interesting things were said


> There's a bigger Brit community here than there is in England!


No doubt true for some areas of the CDS and some areas of the UK

People think they're going to make millions in Spain


> They're not going to do it running a bar


Something that has often been said on the forum, or at least it's not going to be easy, much hard work is involved and you are of course dependant on things beyond your control like the weather and the exchange rate.

Talking about his inlaws


> They sold their house in Florida, sold the house in the UK...


These people were well off and are now working in their SIL's restaurant. A bit of bad luck and a lot of bad planning I'd say. You've got to plan carefully wherever you go, even Spain!

His wife says that they know people who had been in Spain for 20 or 30 years and went back "home" (still the UK after 20/ 30 years?)as there's nothing more for them here. That should serve as a warning for many. It's no longer jump on a plane with granny and the kids and see what happens. I do think in general people are asking more long term, more financial questions than ever before as the global recession has made people realise that you do have to think about The Future, jobs, the opportunities for kids, old age, healthcare so that you can live through the inevitable bad times as well as the good times.

Dave says he doesn't think mnay Spaniards would spend all night and all day in his bar like he does for the money he earns. I have to disagree with Big Dave there. Britain in the past was known as a nation of shop keepers and Spain is still known as a nation of waiters. The tourist industry is once again on the up and up (how long for?) and with that the Spanish waiter will come oput from under the rock where he has spent his winter.
The danger is that once again Spain relies on this industry to make its recovery, the exchange rate changes, the policy about pensions or healthcare or whatever changes and every one packs up and goes "home" again.
I suppose it doesn't really matter as long as Rajoy gets in again and Dave can still serve his roast to enough customers


----------



## mrypg9

BeardedWanderers said:


> We're looking for a more relaxed community feel, some pals have bought in land in a town called Lubrin, mainly Spanish and it seems to have a really nice vibe. Our aim is to initially buy for a holiday bolt hole but with a long term view of retiring there. Learn the language with a degree of fluency and become part of the community. Could anyone recommend some 'non Blackpool' areas in the South?


Every town and village has a community feel. Even in Benalmadena and Calahonda you will find communities. Not always easy to become part of a Spanish community unless you are fairly fluent in Spanish.

There are no 'Blackpool areas' in Spain. Blackpool is unique, one of a kind. There are however brash, noisy seaside resorts on all the Costas and Spaniards enjoy holidaying there.


----------



## Allie-P

We watched it, last night - we heard it being advertised on TRE.

I was surprised that there was no contradictory statement made, against the supposition that we all come over here for free health care ! 

Presumably, it was lack of knowledge on the part of the taxi driver ! However, we use the Medical centre, featured, & know of the interpreter who stated that Pensioners are scrounging off the Spanish government !! ......Such an untruth !!... Why would he say that ??

I hasten to add that I have been living here for 2 years & have learnt enough Spanish - so do not require this service  - which is made up of volunteers.

A very anti - Brit programme, which would have been very misleading for those who were watching in the UK. Let's hope that people don't take these comments as gospel, and rush over for their free health care. 

We currently live in La Cala, between Benalmadena & Calahonda. Such a beautiful, quiet & pleasant village. There are many places such as this, along the CDS. One doesn't need to go inland !!


----------



## Justina

I did see a programme here some time ago on a large Norwegian community living in one of the coastal areas and they were highly organised and didn't seem to have much interaction with the locals.


----------



## Horlics

I question the analytical capabilities of anybody who concluded that this programme was balanced. I concede, though, that any level of analysis of something so superficial is a tad tedious.

I wondered if the production company offered something more interesting, stimulating, and possibly even balanced. I'm torn between watching Cats do the Funniest Things, a mash-up of publicly available Youtube stuff, of cats, doing funny things, or My Perfect Body, which looks at how men feel about, you guessed it, their bodies, or The Fried Chicken Shop in which a shop gets some free advertising from a non-commerical force-funded organisation.

I might spend the day at the beach.


----------



## mrypg9

Horlics said:


> I question the analytical capabilities of anybody who concluded that this programme was balanced. I concede, though, that any level of analysis of something so superficial is a tad tedious.
> 
> I wondered if the production company offered something more interesting, stimulating, and possibly even balanced. I'm torn between watching Cats do the Funniest Things, a mash-up of publicly available Youtube stuff, of cats, doing funny things, or My Perfect Body, which looks at how men feel about, you guessed it, their bodies, or The Fried Chicken Shop in which a shop gets some free advertising from a non-commerical force-funded organisation.
> 
> I might spend the day at the beach.


Covered in sun cream, with a knotted handkerchief on your head, in Union Jack swim shorts munching a burger and swigging lager?


----------



## extranjero

mrypg9 said:


> Covered in sun cream, with a knotted handkerchief on your head, in Union Jack swim shorts munching a burger and swigging lager?


Then, off for your 2 euro breakfast and 1.50 euro pint?


----------



## mrypg9

extranjero said:


> Then, off for your 2 euro breakfast and 1.50 euro pint?


To enjoy with today's copy of The Sun?


----------



## thrax

extranjero said:


> Then, off for your 2 euro breakfast and 1.50 euro pint?


You pay that much?? Still haven't watched it but I've downloaded it so I can do it in bits as I think it might annoy me. I'm recording the 7 party debate tonight for the same reason; I think maybe I'll watch it in 30 second bites as I would like to keep the TV and not throw a brick at it.


----------



## mrypg9

thrax said:


> You pay that much?? Still haven't watched it but I've downloaded it so I can do it in bits as I think it might annoy me. I'm recording the 7 party debate tonight for the same reason; I think maybe I'll watch it in 30 second bites as I would like to keep the TV and not throw a brick at it.


Good call. I'm in the UK at my son's place, off to Cardiff tomorrow and I'm taking my twenty- three year old grandson out to dinner so as to preserve the family TV set.
It will be an undignified free- for- all, I fear.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

thrax said:


> You pay that much?? Still haven't watched it but I've downloaded it so I can do it in bits as I think it might annoy me.


Thrax, you're right.
I've done the first few minutes and have seen Dave and Colin. Dave - dodgy background, working hard now and keeping the family together, including the inlaws who seem to have made little provision for their future. From what I've seen Dave has little interest in Spain. He could be in Portugal/ Turkey/ Cyprus...
Colin - has a pension of 600€, lives in a penthouse flat which takes all his pension. He now gives jive dance classes "to make ends meet" 
I am confused. The expression "Make ends meet" seems to imply some kind of hardship. Am I supposed to feel sympathy for this man who has little spare cash because he chooses to spend his income on a luxury flat with jacuzzi, sauna and bar? I don't think he's on to a winner with his jive dance classes either...


----------



## anles

Allie-P said:


> We watched it, last night - we heard it being advertised on TRE.
> 
> I was surprised that there was no contradictory statement made, against the supposition that we all come over here for free health care !
> 
> Presumably, it was lack of knowledge on the part of the taxi driver ! However, we use the Medical centre, featured, & know of the interpreter who stated that Pensioners are scrounging off the Spanish government !! ......Such an untruth !!... Why would he say that ??
> 
> I hasten to add that I have been living here for 2 years & have learnt enough Spanish - so do not require this service  - which is made up of volunteers.
> 
> A very anti - Brit programme, which would have been very misleading for those who were watching in the UK. Let's hope that people don't take these comments as gospel, and rush over for their free health care.
> 
> We currently live in La Cala, between Benalmadena & Calahonda. Such a beautiful, quiet & pleasant village. There are many places such as this, along the CDS. One doesn't need to go inland !!


I suppose the reason it wasn't disputed was that there were many people here who were benefiting from free healthcare and many still are under different circumstances. Not pensioners, as they had entitlement to reciprocal healthcare. I don't know the situation down south, but here about 8 or 10 years ago, the majority who moved here were "young" retirees, not receiving a state pension but obtained their healthcare as "personas sin recursos" which was not true as they not only owned property here but also had an income to live on. I thought it unfair as people here who were unemployed lost their right to healthcare 90 days after finishing claiming the paro. There were no requirements to register on the foreigners' registry apart from the obligation to register, but it was as simple as going in with your passport. Now the law has changed for everyone, unemployed people no longer lose their healthcare and foreigners who have been registered since 2012 can claim it on presenting a letter on non-entitlement from the UK, so in fact they are still "sponging off" the Spanish system. Although that is not a nice term, I admit, it is what it boils down to.


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## gus-lopez

BeardedWanderers said:


> We're looking for a more relaxed community feel, some pals have bought in land in a town called Lubrin, mainly Spanish and it seems to have a really nice vibe.


I hope it is legal as many there are not .


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## Isobella

Why are you using the term "sponging off the Spanish system" we are in the EU. Check out how many Spaniards have entered the UK health service last year. I don't know anyone who sponges off the Spanish system. Chance would be a fine thing.


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## Roy C

I watched it this evening, I have to say the taxi driver sounded like a Spanish version of a Ukipper. The other Spaniards that gave views on the brits did seem to generalise a bit. As for the Brits featured, they all seemed to be earning a living of some sort even though they were struggling, but then most people in Spain that need to work aren't finding it as easy as it was. It certainly hasn't put me off going, as I don't think the programme focussed on the wider circle of ex pats and a more positive side of living in Spain or maybe I'm just naive.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Roy C said:


> I watched it this evening, I have to say the taxi driver sounded like a Spanish version of a Ukipper. The other Spaniards that gave views on the brits did seem to generalise a bit. As for the Brits featured, they all seemed to be earning a living of some sort even though they were struggling, but then most people in Spain that need to work aren't finding it as easy as it was. It certainly hasn't put me off going, as I don't think the programme focussed on the wider circle of ex pats and a more positive side of living in Spain or maybe I'm just naive.


Are you going to be looking for work?


----------



## Roy C

Pesky Wesky said:


> Are you going to be looking for work?


Absolutely not Pesky, I'll be taking early retirement about this time next year. We will probably rent for a while keep a place here and eventually buy in Spain before the prices go up. Judging by what I've seen that could take a while.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Roy C said:


> Absolutely not Pesky, I'll be taking early retirement about this time next year. We will probably rent for a while keep a place here and eventually buy in Spain before the prices go up. Judging by what I've seen that could take a while.


Which is why you shouldn't be put off.
If you give your retirement some thought, know what you're going to as far as possible, don't forget to use your brain and of course, read this forum you should be on your way to happy retirement days!!


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## anles

Isobella said:


> Why are you using the term "sponging off the Spanish system" we are in the EU. Check out how many Spaniards have entered the UK health service last year. I don't know anyone who sponges off the Spanish system. Chance would be a fine thing.


I never said there were no Spaniards doing the same in the UK, so I don't really understand that comment. In fact, I thought that in the UK, healthcare was based on residency not on contribution. Something that seems to be behind the deterioration of the NHS. Here in Spain until relatively recently it was based on contribution, so you stopped contributing and after 90 days you lost your cover. Now, this has changed and this change is obviously affecting the quality of the service, but at least is does mean that everyone has a right to healthcare. But in effect if someone from the UK who has never contributed in Spain gets free healthcare because they have been registered here since 2012 and they are no longer entitled to the NHS, Spain is paying the bill for their healthcare. Of course you may not know anyone who receives free healthcare thanks to this change, nor anyone who was previously getting free healthcare because they had obtained it as a "persona sin recursos" but where I live many of the people who came ten or fifteen years ago did. They subsequently lost their cards and had to provide a letter of non-entitlement from the UK to get it reinstated.


----------



## Lynn R

Roy C said:


> I watched it this evening, I have to say the taxi driver sounded like a Spanish version of a Ukipper. The other Spaniards that gave views on the brits did seem to generalise a bit. As for the Brits featured, they all seemed to be earning a living of some sort even though they were struggling, but then most people in Spain that need to work aren't finding it as easy as it was. It certainly hasn't put me off going, as I don't think the programme focussed on the wider circle of ex pats and a more positive side of living in Spain or maybe I'm just naive.


We watched it yesterday evening too. I agree it should come as no surprise to us that there will be a section of the Spanish population (especially in areas where there is a high concentration of foreign residents and tourists, and I guess a taxi driver gets to meet more of the drunk and unpleasant people living or holidaying in those areas than many Spaniards would) which blames foreigners for everything that's wrong in their country, when there is a vociferous minority in our own country who feel the same way.

I thought the bar owner and his family were working hard, but wonder if their core market hasn't shrunk too far for them to earn a living (people's tastes and "fashions" in food and holidays does tend to change over time, and maybe some of the original Spanish package holiday resorts which sprang up in the 60s and 70s need to move with the times rather than sticking to "we've always done it this way so that's how we'll keep doing it" model. The jive dance teacher seemed to me to be one of those deluded people who see themselves as successful businesspeople and like to project that image to the world whilst in reality having very little more than a basic state pension to live on, so the fruits of his previous business ventures can't have been that plentiful. I thoght it was a shame that a pretty, quite articulate and bright young girl like Bronte should have gone through the education system and come out the other end with so few qualifications and low expectations, I hope she can find something better by way of a job back in the UK. I felt sorry for the elderly couple who can't sell their house, but really they are an illustration of why people ought to try to learn Spanish to the best level they can (obviously the lady who has dementia could not cope with that, but her husband should have been able to) because had they understood more of the language and what services could be available locally they might have been able to get help much sooner.

I thought the person most guilty of misinterpreting the situation as to who pays for the healthcare of the majority of British residents in Spain (who must surely be pensioners) was the man working as an interpreter in the Health Centre, who I'm sure would be aware that the UK Government pays an annual sum to Spain for the healthcare of each pensioner.

Both of the areas featured in the programme seemed like a different world entirely from where I live, and from many other areas I've visited in Spain.


----------



## Alcalaina

Lynn R said:


> ...
> I thought the bar owner and his family were working hard, but wonder if their core market hasn't shrunk too far for them to earn a living (people's tastes and "fashions" in food and holidays does tend to change over time, and maybe some of the original Spanish package holiday resorts which sprang up in the 60s and 70s need to move with the times rather than sticking to "we've always done it this way so that's how we'll keep doing it" model.


That occurred to me too, and also might be another reason why the bars in the 24 hour plaza were closing. There is no shortage of tourists; 2014 was a record year for overseas visitors. But more and more people come to Spain these days to enjoy a very different sort of tourism, for example sport, nature, visiting historical sites etc. They would avoid that sort of resort like the plague. That's not being snobbish or presumptuous - it's based on comments from people I meet who visit our pueblo.


----------



## extranjero

anles said:


> I never said there were no Spaniards doing the same in the UK, so I don't really understand that comment. In fact, I thought that in the UK, healthcare was based on residency not on contribution. Something that seems to be behind the deterioration of the NHS. Here in Spain until relatively recently it was based on contribution, so you stopped contributing and after 90 days you lost your cover. Now, this has changed and this change is obviously affecting the quality of the service, but at least is does mean that everyone has a right to healthcare. But in effect if someone from the UK who has never contributed in Spain gets free healthcare because they have been registered here since 2012 and they are no longer entitled to the NHS, Spain is paying the bill for their healthcare. Of course you may not know anyone who receives free healthcare thanks to this change, nor anyone who was previously getting free healthcare because they had obtained it as a "persona sin recursos" but where I live many of the people who came ten or fifteen years ago did. They subsequently lost their cards and had to provide a letter of non-entitlement from the UK to get it reinstated.


Can't understand the bit where you said"Spain is paying the bill for their healthcare"
Surely any Brit who is getting free healthcare in Spain, is still being paid for by the DWP.


----------



## Alcalaina

extranjero said:


> Can't understand the bit where you said"Spain is paying the bill for their healthcare"
> Surely any Brit who is getting free healthcare in Spain, is still being paid for by the DWP.


Only if they have an S1 or EHIC. Care for 'sin recursos' is paid for by the Spanish taxpayer.


----------



## Lynn R

Alcalaina said:


> That occurred to me too, and also might be another reason why the bars in the 24 hour plaza were closing. There is no shortage of tourists; 2014 was a record year for overseas visitors. But more and more people come to Spain these days to enjoy a very different sort of tourism, for example sport, nature, visiting historical sites etc. They would avoid that sort of resort like the plague. That's not being snobbish or presumptuous - it's based on comments from people I meet who visit our pueblo.


I think the same thing happened to most of the traditional British seaside resorts - when the Spanish package holiday resorts became popular, they lost their appeal and went into decline (pretty much terminal decline as far as places like Blackpool, Rhyl and Morecambe are concerned). A few seem to have managed to reinvent themselves, but most have just stagnated. Now the older "sun, sea and sangria" Spanish resorts are going the same way, although the recession has undoubtedly hastened their decline.


----------



## Isobella

Interesting points Lynn. Was just reading this. The temptation to turn the Costas into low cost holidays.


La tentación de convertirse en un destino de bajo coste


----------



## 90199

Many take all inclusive holidays, therefor the local bars, restaurants, taxis and other businesses suffer a loss of earnings, the holiday makers have no need to venture out of the hotel complex, and therefore spend less when they arrive.

Our small tourist industry has suffered, the price of an air ticket, for non residents, to Madrid, U.K. or elsewhere in Europe, is half the price of the Ferry or Air fare from Tenerife/ Gran Canaria, to the Meridian Isle.


----------



## Lynn R

Isobella said:


> Interesting points Lynn. Was just reading this. The temptation to turn the Costas into low cost holidays.
> 
> 
> La tentación de convertirse en un destino de bajo coste


Given the demographics in pretty much all the developed countries, I think the "grey pound" is the market I would be looking at expanding services for, not low cost tourism. Capitalise on their biggest asset, the milder climate, and provide lots more warden assisted housing complexes, care homes, etc. with staff who speak the languages of the Northern European countries but where charges are lower than in their home countries.


----------



## Lynn R

Hepa said:


> Many take all inclusive holidays, therefor the local bars, restaurants, taxis and other businesses suffer a loss of earnings, the holiday makers have no need to venture out of the hotel complex, and therefore spend less when they arrive.
> 
> .


That's very true, Hepa. I believe the all-inclusive hotels have done a lot of damage to the wider tourist economy in areas where they are plentiful. Thankfully there isn't a single one of them East of Malaga, and I hope it stays that way.

One of the first things the new Greek Government said when they were elected is that they would prevent leases for all-inclusive holiday complexes being renewed and ban any new ones being granted. I don't agree with everything Syriza say or do but I do believe that would be a good move for their economy.


----------



## Horlics

Lynn R said:


> That's very true, Hepa. I believe the all-inclusive hotels have done a lot of damage to the wider tourist economy in areas where they are plentiful. Thankfully there isn't a single one of them East of Malaga, and I hope it stays that way.
> 
> One of the first things the new Greek Government said when they were elected is that they would prevent leases for all-inclusive holiday complexes being renewed and ban any new ones being granted. I don't agree with everything Syriza say or do but I do believe that would be a good move for their economy.


Wouldn't that just make those seeking an all-inclusive holiday go elsewhere, rather than still go to Greece and eat out?

Plus, hotels could still, presumably, offer half and full board. All they have to do is throw in wine and beers with meals, and put a free ice cream machine out, and there you have something very close to all inclusive.

When governments start fiddling it causes a mess.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Isobella said:


> Interesting points Lynn. Was just reading this. The temptation to turn the Costas into low cost holidays.
> 
> 
> La tentaciÃ³n de convertirse en un destino de bajo coste


From the article


> Más llegadas. Más turistas británicos, alemanes y franceses. Más ocupación. Más aportación del sector al PIB y a la balanza de pagos. Más sol y playa. Más ingresos totales. Más visitas guiadas. Más referente mundial. Más cifras récord. Y sin embargo, un gasto por turista y gasto medio diario menor o estancado.


This is something some of us have often mentioned on the forum, especially mrypg9.

What I don't understand is the idea that the costas are *changing* to low cost tourism. I thought it had been pitched as a cheapo kind of holiday for decades. And all inclusive (which isn't necessarily cheap - it can be as up market as you want to price it) isn't a new idea either, is it?

I think tourism in Spain has developed a lot in the years that I've been here and has opened up a lot to other areas of Spain due to "green/ rural" tourism and cultural tourism with the opening of the Guggenheim and the Thyssen for example. There's also been a boom in spas and wine tours and other such things.
But the Costas haven't upped their game. In fact they've gone the other way from what I can make out encouraging hen/ stag parties and that blooming awful Salou thing.
One of the problems of course is that once you've destroyed a good part of a coastline's natural beauty there's no putting it back, is there?


----------



## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> that blooming awful *Salou* thing.


PW please enlighten me (and, maybe, others) what is that which you have mentioned? The only thing I can come up with is a place and resort in Cataluña.


----------



## xabiaxica

baldilocks said:


> PW please enlighten me (and, maybe, others) what is that which you have mentioned? The only thing I can come up with is a place and resort in Cataluña.


Salou espera la llegada de 9.500 jóvenes en la nueva edición del 'Saloufest' - ANTENA 3 TV


----------



## baldilocks

xabiachica said:


> Salou espera la llegada de 9.500 jóvenes en la nueva edición del 'Saloufest' - ANTENA 3 TV


I suppose it is a bit like those student debaucheries they have in Florida.


----------



## Justina

*Holidays*



baldilocks said:


> I suppose it is a bit like those student debaucheries they have in Florida.


Or the springbreakers from the US who arrive to Mexico.


----------



## Allie-P

Just as I envisaged, they are discussing the 'fact' on a UK forum that Spanish healthcare is free for all & sundry.....!!!!

This has been disputed by several of us who are currently living in Spain. Very irresponsible programming !!

The interpreter is situated at my local Centro de Salud - I should imagine that he will be inundated with queries concerning his incorrect statement 

The helpful Foreigner's department, which was featured, is local to us. I don't know if others, in Spain, follow the same procedure with aged expat Brits, who are in need ??


----------



## Pesky Wesky

baldilocks said:


> PW please enlighten me (and, maybe, others) what is that which you have mentioned? The only thing I can come up with is a place and resort in Cataluña.


Sorry, Lynn R made a reference to it and I thought it was on this thread, but now I can't find it.
As Xabia has already posted it's a "sports" festival in Salou where young university Brits go to piss and puke in the streets of Salou as far as I can see.
I'm all for student life and that includes testing the limits at some stage or other of responsibility, of maturity it may include some experimenting with substances... and yes some people get lost on the way - that's life. 
In my philosophy of life it does not include however making others lives a misery because you want to lie unconcious in the road with little clothing on.








It does not include leaving body fluids all over the place for someone else to clean up. It does not include having sex in public and it doesn't include verbal and physical abuse.
That is not tourism and it is not desirable
Just an opinion however!

The funny thing is, as this old thread will tell you, supposedly you can be fined for wearing a bikini in the street in Salou! It would appear you can't wear a bikini, but you can wear a tanga!
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...52782-fines-wearing-bikini-streets-salou.html


----------



## Lynn R

Horlics said:


> Wouldn't that just make those seeking an all-inclusive holiday go elsewhere, rather than still go to Greece and eat out?
> 
> Plus, hotels could still, presumably, offer half and full board. All they have to do is throw in wine and beers with meals, and put a free ice cream machine out, and there you have something very close to all inclusive.
> 
> When governments start fiddling it causes a mess.


Given the world situation at the moment, where are they going to go? Turkey and Egypt had both become popular for lower-cost all-inclusive holidays, but a lot of people are reluctant to go there now because of security fears. Apart from the Dominican Republic (which gets a lot of bad press for low standards and hygiene problems) the Caribbean all-inclusives are probably too expensive for a lot of people. Portugal and Italy have never gone down that route at all.

If resorts want to look at moving away from that model, and personally I think they should having seen the impact on some of the resorts (my brother went to an all-inclusive in Mallorca and said outside the complex it was pretty much a ghost town with bars and cafes shut up, that can't be good for anybody if all the profits are concentrated only in the large hotel companies) then there will never be a better time to do it.


----------



## Lynn R

Pesky Wesky said:


> Sorry, Lynn R made a reference to it and I thought it was on this thread, but now I can't find it.
> ]


Not guilty, your honour! Wasn't me, but can`t remember who did so can't tell tales on them.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Allie-P said:


> Just as I envisaged, they are discussing the 'fact' on a UK forum that Spanish healthcare is free for all & sundry.....!!!!
> 
> This has been disputed by several of us who are currently living in Spain. Very irresponsible programming !!
> 
> The interpreter is situated at my local Centro de Salud - I should imagine that he will be inundated with queries concerning his incorrect statement
> 
> The helpful Foreigner's department, which was featured, is local to us. I don't know if others, in Spain, follow the same procedure with aged expat Brits, who are in need ??


There are foreigners departments in several places I think according to posts I have read on the forum over time, but they seem to be reserved for the south of Spain. I've certainly never seen a foreigners dept here and with the number of arab immigrants and at times Bulgarian or Romanian it would have been useful. On the other hand, you know what? Many of those immigrants speak a lot better Spanish after being here for a year than the British immigrants who've been here for 20 - just an observation...


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> Not guilty, your honour! Wasn't me, but can`t remember who did so can't tell tales on them.


Oh! How annoying! I was sure you'd referenced it, but obviously not. Never mind Lynn you can read all about it in the article I've referenced and also it's in the Spanish press today as it's happening right now. Unfortunately a young British woman has fallen from a balcony... If you were being horrible, as I can be at times, you could ask what the FFFF was she doing there any way? 
On the other hand you could try to ignore this facet of British youth which might be a good alternative


----------



## Lynn R

Pesky Wesky said:


> Oh! How annoying! I was sure you'd referenced it, but obviously not. Never mind Lynn you can read all about it in the article I've referenced and also it's in the Spanish press today as it's happening right now. Unfortunately a young British woman has fallen from a balcony... If you were being horrible, as I can be at times, you could ask what the FFFF was she doing there any way?
> On the other hand you could try to ignore this facet of British youth which might be a good alternative


I read reports of young people being killed and seriously injured by falling from balconies every single year, usually in Magaluf. It's always my first thought, what on earth makes them want to get themselves into such a state, via either alcohol or drugs, sometimes both, that they put themselves in those situations.


----------



## Alcalaina

It was me - post #20, page 2 on this thread.


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> There are foreigners departments in several places I think according to posts I have read on the forum over time, but they seem to be reserved for the south of Spain. I've certainly never seen a foreigners dept here and with the number of arab immigrants and at times *Bulgarian or Romanian it would have been useful. On the other hand, you know what? Many of those immigrants speak a lot better Spanish after being here for a year than the British immigrants who've been here for 20 - just an observation*...


I'm sure it's partly because they don't have easy access to TV programmes in their own language - those I know who struggle the most, or don't even try, only watch English TV, read English newspapers & magazines & go to the cinema when they are showing in English

when we used to have Spanish students stay with us in the summer, we had a 16 year old boy from Georgia stay with us (not the US one) 

he had been here only a couple of years & he was damn near fluent in Spanish - & on track to pass all his subjects at graduado on time & with good grades

where he lived, the only opportunity he had to speak, or even hear, his native language was with his mother - & she has been here a few years before she sent for him, & was more used to speaking Spanish now - so they very often spoke Spanish at home, too


----------



## Alcalaina

xabiachica said:


> I'm sure it's partly because they don't have easy access to TV programmes in their own language - those I know who struggle the most, or don't even try, only watch English TV, read English newspapers & magazines & go to the cinema when they are showing in English
> 
> when we used to have Spanish students stay with us in the summer, we had a 16 year old boy from Georgia stay with us (not the US one)
> 
> he had been here only a couple of years & he was damn near fluent in Spanish - & on track to pass all his subjects at graduado on time & with good grades
> 
> where he lived, the only opportunity he had to speak, or even hear, his native language was with his mother - & she has been here a few years before she sent for him, & was more used to speaking Spanish now - so they very often spoke Spanish at home, too


And because the other nationalities are usually looking for work and need to speak Spanish. They've probably already learned English or at least one other second language.

Whereas the British often tend to assume that wherever they go in the world, someone will speak their language.

I completely agree that if you treat learning Spanish as a separate activity which you do for an hour a week, while living your entire life in English the rest of the time, you will never be able to do much more than order a meal.


----------



## Allie-P

Alcalaina said:


> And because the other nationalities are usually looking for work and need to speak Spanish. They've probably already learned English or at least one other second language.
> 
> Whereas the British often tend to assume that wherever they go in the world, someone will speak their language.
> 
> I completely agree that if you treat learning Spanish as a separate activity which you do for an hour a week, while living your entire life in English the rest of the time, you will never be able to do much more than order a meal.



I spend one hour a week, speaking Spanish with my teacher. The remainder of the time I study verbs, grammar & do Spanish exercises, on my own. I manage very effectively in shops, at the Centro de Salud/Hospital etc....

I have not met any other English Pensioner who is learning the language. There must be some, though !! 

The excuse is.....always the same.... everyone speaks English.


----------



## Alcalaina

Allie-P said:


> I spend one hour a week, speaking Spanish with my teacher. The remainder of the time I study verbs, grammar & do Spanish exercises, on my own. I manage very effectively in shops, at the Centro de Salud/Hospital etc....
> 
> I have not met any other English Pensioner who is learning the language. There must be some, though !!
> 
> The excuse is.....always the same.... everyone speaks English.


Good for you Allie. There are no shortcuts.

I tried teaching some pensioners once, because here everybody _doesn't_ speak English. They turned up each week with a list of excuses for not having done their "homework", just like a bunch of schoolkids. And of course as soon as they needed an interpreter at the bank or whatever ... muggins!

All four have gone back to the UK now.


----------



## xabiaxica

Allie-P said:


> I spend one hour a week, speaking Spanish with my teacher. The remainder of the time I study verbs, grammar & do Spanish exercises, on my own. I manage very effectively in shops, at the Centro de Salud/Hospital etc....
> 
> I have not met any other English Pensioner who is learning the language. There must be some, though !!
> 
> The excuse is.....always the same.... everyone speaks English.


I have quite a few pensioners among my students - some are more motivated than others though 



Alcalaina said:


> Good for you Allie. There are no shortcuts.
> 
> I tried teaching some pensioners once, because here everybody _doesn't_ speak English. They turned up each week with a list of excuses for not having done their "homework", just like a bunch of schoolkids. And of course as soon as they needed an interpreter at the bank or whatever ... muggins!
> 
> All four have gone back to the UK now.



yep - I've heard every excuse you can imagine


----------



## 90199

Alcalaina said:


> Whereas the British often tend to assume that wherever they go in the world, someone will speak their language
> .


There is a reason for that, when I was young I travelled by sea from London to Hong Kong, calling at, Port Said, Suez, Aden, Bombay, Columbo Ceylon, Georgetown Penang Malaya, Singapore Malaya, and Hong Kong.

Each of those ports were or had been part of the British Empire, the common language in each port was English, there was no need whatsoever to learn any other language.

English is now international, psst! don't tell the Scots 

Went in a Chinese shop today, I asked the man, how was he in Mandarin, his face was a picture……………….


----------



## baldilocks

One thing that does encourage some Brits to learn Spanish is living in a village where there are few other Brits. The only person in the woodpile is many Spanish want to practice their English.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Allie-P said:


> I spend one hour a week, speaking Spanish with my teacher. The remainder of the time I study verbs, grammar & do Spanish exercises, on my own. I manage very effectively in shops, at the Centro de Salud/Hospital etc....
> 
> I have not met any other English Pensioner who is learning the language. There must be some, though !!
> 
> The excuse is.....always the same.... everyone speaks English.


Well done for making an effort, and I know it really *is* an effort to keep up the enthusiasm for studying such a lot on your own.
You must feel great though when you can make yourself understood and can understand what's being said back to you


----------



## 90199

One most enjoyable way of learning Spanish, is getting plastered with the locals


----------



## baldilocks

Hepa said:


> One most enjoyable way of learning Spanish, is getting plastered with the locals


That only works if you can remember it afterwards.


----------



## missysky

mrypg9 said:


> But to be fat AND ugly.....


You are obviously an extremely rude person.....I know these people personally and they are the nicest people around, they would do anything to help anyone if they were in the position too. Dave has been working really hard to lose his weight, which he incidentally gained after he gave up training ( and after from good living ). In fact he did laugh when I mentioned your post to him the other day and you know his reply said it all " everyone is entitled to an opinion, whilst they talk about me they are not hurting anyone else". So I therefore say to you please do not judge a book by its cover.................


----------



## jojo

missysky said:


> just to let you know ´that bar owner´ has lost 7 stone, your more than likely ugly at least he can lose weight !!!!



Very admirable. I lost 6 stone and its a wonderful feeling. As for ugly - well personality, looks can all be ugly sometimes

Jo xxx


----------



## jojo

missysky said:


> You are obviously an extremely rude person.....I know these people personally and they are the nicest people around, they would do anything to help anyone if they were in the position too. Dave has been working really hard to lose his weight, which he incidentally gained after he gave up training ( and after from good living ). In fact he did laugh when I mentioned your post to him the other day and you know his reply said it all " everyone is entitled to an opinion, whilst they talk about me they are not hurting anyone else". So I therefore say to you please do not judge a book by its cover.................


He has the right attitude and takes things in the context that they are meant I'm sure lol

Jo xxx


----------



## Alcalaina

missysky said:


> You are obviously an extremely rude person.....I know these people personally and they are the nicest people around, they would do anything to help anyone if they were in the position too. Dave has been working really hard to lose his weight, which he incidentally gained after he gave up training ( and after from good living ). In fact he did laugh when I mentioned your post to him the other day and you know his reply said it all " everyone is entitled to an opinion, whilst they talk about me they are not hurting anyone else". So I therefore say to you please do not judge a book by its cover.................


Thanks for coming on here and explaining that you know the people who run the bar. Could I just ask you, was Dave pleased with how he was portrayed in the TV show? Or did he think they made him look like a loser?


----------



## Rabbitcat

Let's not get into accusations of being ugly.

I certainly have no room to talk. 

As a kid I was so ugly mine was the only pram in our town with shutters !!!

Indeed to this day if I visit the seaside I have to face inland or the tide wont come in!!!


----------



## Alcalaina

Rabbitcat said:


> Indeed to this day if I visit the seaside I have to face inland or the tide wont come in!!!


Ha ha, gotcha. Mongolia has no coastline.


----------



## Isobella

I think the post by Mrypg9 was a bit tongue in cheek. When someone agrees to take part in those programmes they should be prepared to take the flak. After all the BBC left a lot open for comment.


----------



## 90199

The BBC are coming here, El Hierro, this week, what do you think, should we make ourselves scarce??


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Hepa said:


> The BBC are coming here, El Hierro, this week, what do you think, should we make ourselves scarce??


Depends, If they are doing the gormless -muck up everything s/he touches -British- expat type show or people who are living a great life on Hierro programme...


----------



## 90199

Pesky Wesky said:


> Depends, If they are doing the gormless -muck up everything s/he touches -British- expat type show or people who are living a great life on Hierro programme...


I believe it is to be a documentary on the geopark and the fossil free energy, plus life on the island. We do not have the British that the Costas have. There are maybe five English, so they will be looking a long time. The BBC do not appear to have researched the project very well, questions are only just being asked.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Hepa said:


> I believe it is to be a documentary on the geopark and the fossil free energy, plus life on the island. We do not have the British that the Costas have. There are maybe five English, so they will be looking a long time. The BBC do not appear to have researched the project very well, questions are only just being asked.


What I meant to say was if they want you to look like a lager swilling lout they will no matter what your real life is.
5 English people? It's going up, isn't it?

PS You could just act natural when the camera crews are around. Lots of times it seems that they are not interested in filming people who live "normal" lives


----------



## Horlics

I think you should put up a sign outside your front gate offering english breakfast and make a few quid from the BBC crew.



Hepa said:


> I believe it is to be a documentary on the geopark and the fossil free energy, plus life on the island. We do not have the British that the Costas have. There are maybe five English, so they will be looking a long time. The BBC do not appear to have researched the project very well, questions are only just being asked.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Horlics said:


> I think you should put up a sign outside your front gate offering english breakfast and make a few quid from the BBC crew.


Good idea!:thumb:


----------



## baldilocks

Or put up a huge sign saying "Brits go home"


----------



## 90199

Pesky Wesky said:


> What I meant to say was if they want you to look like a lager swilling lout they will no matter what your real life is.
> *5 English people? It's going up, isn't it?*
> 
> PS You could just act natural when the camera crews are around. Lots of times it seems that they are not interested in filming people who live "normal" lives


Yes, we have gained one more.


----------



## mrypg9

missysky said:


> You are obviously an extremely rude person.....I know these people personally and they are the nicest people around, they would do anything to help anyone if they were in the position too. Dave has been working really hard to lose his weight, which he incidentally gained after he gave up training ( and after from good living ). In fact he did laugh when I mentioned your post to him the other day and you know his reply said it all " everyone is entitled to an opinion, whilst they talk about me they are not hurting anyone else". So I therefore say to you please do not judge a book by its cover.................


Now what makes you think I was referring to any particular individual, I wonder...
I am sure that 'Fat Dave' has a 'heart of gold', it is a common characteristic of debt- collectors and bailiffs, I've heard.
And beauty is, after all, in the eye of the beholder, it's said.


----------



## 90199

Horlics said:


> I think you should put up a sign outside your front gate offering english breakfast and make a few quid from the BBC crew.


Slight problem, no English/Danish bacon, no English/U.K./Irish sausages, only Italian baked beans. The BBC people will have to have a Canarian breakfast, whatever that is.


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> What I meant to say was if they want you to look like a lager swilling lout they will no matter what your real life is.


They'd have to work hard on me to make me seem like that.
Which is why boring people like me wouldn't be asked to take part in that kind of film..


----------



## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> They'd have to work hard on me to make me seem like that.
> Which is why boring people like me wouldn't be asked to take part in that kind of film..


if you looked on one of our local FB groups, you'd think every English speaker in Jávea spends every night getting more & more pickled in various bars

they don't, of course - just a vocal minority, which becomes more pickled & more vocal as the night - or weekend - wears on


----------



## baldilocks

Unfortunately politician, so often seem to selected from those whose families have influence or who have big mouths and make a lot of noise.


----------



## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Unfortunately politician, so often seem to selected from those whose families have influence or who have big mouths and make a lot of noise.


Not really, Baldy. There are over seven hundred MPs in the UK Parliament, don't know how many in the Cortes.
But yes, a significant minority in all Parties come from 'political' families...the Gummers, the Benns and there are those who are wealthy...Margaret Hodge, Cameron, Osborne, most Tory Cabinet members.
Some are very competent, others aren't.
But the vast majority of MPs are neither wealthy nor well- connected.


----------



## Lynn R

Hepa said:


> Yes, we have gained one more.


The Daily Mail could spin that as "British population of small island soars by 25%", you know.


----------



## Allie-P

xabiachica said:


> I have quite a few pensioners among my students - some are more motivated than others though
> 
> yep - I've heard every excuse you can imagine



No, I always do my, " homework."  I read & write better in Spanish, than I converse colloquially, though ! 

My teacher speaks the equivalent of BBC Spanish, which I understand - but the Andalucians have their own way of speaking the language, which I don't always grasp.

I have been told that the language is spoken much more correctly, in the north of the country - but 'Poco a poco' is my motto.

Yesterday, my husband spoke to the interpreter, featured in the programme. He seemed very uncomfortable at being approached on the subject.....

He claimed that the programme was not edited properly ! Strange, when his exact words were - Pensioner's healthcare is, "* All * picked up by the Spanish health system."


----------



## hopalong35

I watched that documentary too and I thought is was an irresponsible piece by the BBC with a very biased and one sided view of Brits living in Spain


----------



## Sirtravelot

Just finished watching the "documentary".

So far, I've not really heard much negativity towards the British here in Spain. The general talk is that "All foreigners have got money, except for us Spaniards". I almost think the Spanish have too many other worries than to think about the "Brits taking their jobs". There's something the documentary forgot: Spain is also occupied by Germans, Dutch, Scandinavians and French. 

Ironically, I saw a Facebook post today in Spanish FULL of Spaniards moaning about...THE CHINESE.

Because apparently they don't integrate or pay taxes. "When did you last see a Chinese person in a Spanish cafe?" Stuff of that sort. It's not the British who are the Polish of Spain, it's the Chinese, apparently. And people are much more worried about being robbed by Africans of Gypseys. 

The comment by the "fat guy" about how Spain was "full of donkeys before the British came" was something that was repeated to me...BY A SPANIARD. He's not wrong, but it's exaggerated. But hey, Britain has got towns that were sh*tholes 40 years ago and they are STILL sh*tholes today.

Economy wise, yeah, things are bad, but it's not ALL hopeless. I met a 21 year old Spaniard who has been running his business for almost 2 years. He says even if it all goes to hell, at least he'll have had the experience. There's also a British family who runs a music venue and they've been around for 4 years - the place is mostly always full.

Brits who don't speak a lick of Spanish after living here for a long time are not uncommon, but I have found some who do speak it relatively fluent. 

Anyway, I've said it before and I'll say it again - Brits are obsessed with immigrants. They've plundered and colonized half the world, started genocides here and there, and now they're sh*tting themselves about having their benefits abused by Petrov Polanski from Poland. I gag when I hear British people who have lived in Spain for 20 years saying they'd vote UKIP if they were back home. Nobody misses them back home. Sadly.


----------



## anthomo16

I like what you have had to say about Last Brits Standing Mryaq9 I live in the hills above what I term as a fancy "Blackpoool" Puerto Banus yes you will find all the brits described, in Banus along with German and Scandanavian yobs French and Italian yobs too, but you will find these wherever you go beit Spain or Florida. We have lived in our apartment for 11 years and explored a lot of our area and love going into the local villages for our Tapas conversing and laughing with the local spaniards. We have met even in our own urbanisation owners who will not mix with the locals and have no intention of learning the language, that of course is their perogative but I feel they are missing out on so much culture. I love Spain the warmth alone is marvellous for my arthritis as is living life at a slow pace.


----------



## Celt

Well I'm working class- but my children aren't and sometimes I sneer at the Costa mentality. In Wales, Cardiff airport can't support flights to for example the French regional airports (I live near Bordeaux) because a high proportion of Welsh holiday makers can't see past the Costa's. Its a pity and the working class can be just as snob-ish and sneering as the others, in their own leatherette way. I can think of one couple now from the valleys that have a place near Alicante, always raving on about their Jag, own a Rolex and have joined a golf club. How naff can you get eh! So come on- a bit of balance needed?


----------



## mrypg9

anthomo16 said:


> I like what you have had to say about Last Brits Standing Mryaq9 I live in the hills above what I term as a fancy "Blackpoool" Puerto Banus yes you will find all the brits described, in Banus along with German and Scandanavian yobs French and Italian yobs too, but you will find these wherever you go beit Spain or Florida. We have lived in our apartment for 11 years and explored a lot of our area and love going into the local villages for our Tapas conversing and laughing with the local spaniards. We have met even in our own urbanisation owners who will not mix with the locals and have no intention of learning the language, that of course is their perogative but I feel they are missing out on so much culture. I love Spain the warmth alone is marvellous for my arthritis as is living life at a slow pace.


There are ignorant stupid people everywhere. My view is that if you are sensitive to vulgarity, avoid it. It's hard to miss.
I can see the appeal of places like Alicante and Benidorm, especially for older retired people who haven't had the experience of independent travel. If you didn't get on well with learning French when you were twelve you won't find it easy to pick up Spanish in your late sixties or early seventies and, frankly, why should you? If you can live a happy life being able to say only 'Please' and 'Thankyou', there's no law against it.
I've met people who tell me 'Ive been here for thirty years, you know', as if they expect a medal or something who know next to nothing about the history and geography of Spain. Again, if they're happy with their lives.
We Brits can be excessively preoccupied with how people live their lives. Judgmental too. People who defend the right of immigrants in the UK to stick to their communities, culture and customs get upset when they hear of Brits here who choose to live in communities -'Little Britain' - and eat British breakfasts, watch British tv and so on. 
I live my life as I choose. I don't invite comments on my lifestyle and wouldn't have much time for anyone who made them anyway. I've lived in big cities, country towns, villages and fly-blown hamlets and each has its attractions.
That programme was sneering, patronising and probably made by some media-luvvie type who holidays in Tuscany or the Dordogne where he is unknowingly the butt of jokes from the locals who are happy to tolerate him as long as he spends money.


----------



## jimenato

Celt said:


> Well I'm working class- but my children aren't and sometimes I sneer at the Costa mentality. In Wales, Cardiff airport can't support flights to for example the French regional airports (I live near Bordeaux) because a high proportion of Welsh holiday makers can't see past the Costa's. Its a pity and the working class can be just as snob-ish and sneering as the others, in their own leatherette way. I can think of one couple now from the valleys that have a place near Alicante, always raving on about their Jag, own a Rolex and have joined a golf club. How naff can you get eh! So come on- a bit of balance needed?


Costa mentality?:noidea:


----------



## mrypg9

Celt said:


> Well I'm working class- but my children aren't and sometimes I sneer at the Costa mentality. In Wales, Cardiff airport can't support flights to for example the French regional airports (I live near Bordeaux) because a high proportion of Welsh holiday makers can't see past the Costa's. eh! So come on-QUOTE]
> 
> Don't you think you are echoing the sentiments of that programme, in a minor way?
> What do you see as the 'Costa mentality'? Ad why should Welsh people of any 'class' 'see past the Costas'?
> Should Rolex watches, Jaguars and membership of golf clubs be the exclusive preserve of the middle classes? If so, why Do these things lose their cchet when hoi polloi have access to them?
> Perhaps you should stop sneering and celebrate the fact that Welsh working-class people can afford their Costa holidays. Time was when they couldn't afford a weekend in a caravan in Rhyll.


----------



## Isobella

I don't think it is naff to own a Rolex or a Jaguar, bragging about it probably is. I think if I had a new Jag I would be inclined to mention it, not that it is likely to happen


----------



## mrypg9

Why do so many people feel moved to comment negatively on how others choose to live, what car they drive, where they choose to live....
Are they dissatisfied with their own lives, perhaps? Contented people live and let live.
We choose how we live, within our means (and those who have worked hard and accumulated a bit of dosh deserve to enjoy the fruits of their labours).
I disliked the BBC programme because it was sneering and patronising in tone, gave a very slanted picture of life on the Costas and also because more and more I resent the BBC spending UK licence payers money on tripe and trivia.
But I equally dislike the view that people who enjoy sun, sea and sangria are somehow breaking a cultural rule: 'How the Discerning Live in Spain'.
If 'working class' people like to lie in the sun on the Costa beaches, good luck to them. Perhaps they are wearing their Rolexes, arrived at the beach in a Jag and are dreaming of the next round of golf. Even the proles can afford these things nowadays.When I was a child, working class people often couldn't afford a holiday or had to make do with day trips to the seaside or a week in a grim boarding house somewhere. Going to the Isle of Wight would be a dream, let alone Spain.
Long may the budget airlines fly the working classes of all parts of the UK to their holidays on whichever Costa floats their boat..
If I'd spent my working year behind a cash desk at Tesco or at a call centre I'd think I'd earned a bit of low-class fun....


----------



## Williams2

mrypg9 said:


> Why do so many people feel moved to comment negatively on how others choose to live, what car they drive, where they choose to live....
> Are they dissatisfied with their own lives, perhaps? Contented people live and let live.
> We choose how we live, within our means (and those who have worked hard and accumulated a bit of dosh deserve to enjoy the fruits of their labours).
> I disliked the BBC programme because it was sneering and patronising in tone, gave a very slanted picture of life on the Costas and also because more and more I resent the BBC spending UK licence payers money on tripe and trivia.
> But I equally dislike the view that people who enjoy sun, sea and sangria are somehow breaking a cultural rule: 'How the Discerning Live in Spain'.
> If 'working class' people like to lie in the sun on the Costa beaches, good luck to them. Perhaps they are wearing their Rolexes, arrived at the beach in a Jag and are dreaming of the next round of golf. Even the proles can afford these things nowadays.When I was a child, working class people often couldn't afford a holiday or had to make do with day trips to the seaside or a week in a grim boarding house somewhere. Going to the Isle of Wight would be a dream, let alone Spain.
> Long may the budget airlines fly the working classes of all parts of the UK to their holidays on whichever Costa floats their boat..
> If I'd spent my working year behind a cash desk at Tesco or at a call centre I'd think I'd earned a bit of low-class fun....



I do wish folks would drop the old 20th century adage _working class_ - were in the 21st century now - where
such distinctions have become blurred almost beyond recognition.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Williams2 said:


> I do wish folks would drop the old 20th century adage _working class_ - were in the 21st century now - where
> such distinctions have become blurred almost beyond recognition.


And so the correct term to use is??????????????


----------



## Roy C

I think some people are getting mixed up between 'working class' and 'chav'.

The two being completely different.


----------



## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> And so the correct term to use is??????????????


"Proles" perhaps, or is that too 1984?


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## baldilocks

I would be quite content to live with the label "working class" which when I was young was considered to be honest and hard-working as opposed to the drones and idle rich. But then, times have changed. So many of those who might have been classed as "working class" have now become drones thanks to Social Security and might even be classed as the "idle poor."


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> There are ignorant stupid people everywhere. My view is that if you are sensitive to vulgarity, avoid it. It's hard to miss.
> Can't argue with that!
> I can see the appeal of places like Alicante and Benidorm, especially for older retired people who haven't had the experience of independent travel. If you didn't get on well with learning French when you were twelve you won't find it easy to pick up Spanish in your late sixties or early seventies and, frankly, why should you? If you can live a happy life being able to say only 'Please' and 'Thankyou', there's no law against it.
> I agree. What grates is when people who know little about Spanish life because of their language difficulties and preferred life style feel free to comment on what they see around them, but don't understand (For example complaining about the road works labourer having a break and chomping his way through a huge Spanish style sandwich at 11:00 in the morning, ignoring the fact that he's been at it since 8 in the morning and it's now 30º and climbing). If you live that kind of way, I think you should be aware of how you're living.
> I've met people who tell me 'Ive been here for thirty years, you know', as if they expect a medal or something who know next to nothing about the history and geography of Spain. Again, if they're happy with their lives.
> Yes, I've occasionally come across that person who feels that number of years in a place = merit...
> We Brits can be excessively preoccupied with how people live their lives. Judgmental too. People who defend the right of immigrants in the UK to stick to their communities, culture and customs get upset when they hear of Brits here who choose to live in communities -'Little Britain' - and eat British breakfasts, watch British tv and so on.
> Is this a British trait? I didn't know that
> I live my life as I choose. I don't invite comments on my lifestyle and wouldn't have much time for anyone who made them anyway.
> Yes, few of us expect comments on our life style; most are just living our lives, yet we do comment on others, don't we?





Isobella said:


> I don't think it is naff to own a Rolex or a Jaguar, bragging about it probably is. I think if I had a new Jag I would be inclined to mention it, not that it is likely to happen


I agree, It's the bragging that does it, although I have too admit I have a loathing for "Names" Loewe/ Desigual/ Burberry/ MontBlanc or even Xhi Wan Woo I don't like the name being an important part of the product.

I don't have a problem with anybody going anywhere, "working class" Noveau Riche or stinking rich as long as they treat the place they are in with respect. Puking your guts up on street corners, leaving rubbish on beaches and displaying all body parts imaginable in all places imaginable is not "respectful" IMO


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## Rabbitcat

Could t agree more

People can be so pass remarkable. 

Indeed I got funny looks and adverse remarks recently whilst shopping in a Mercadona.

However I ignored the looks , rose above the insults, put my shorts back on -and left the store without even commenting


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## baldilocks

Rabbitcat said:


> Could t agree more
> 
> People can be so pass remarkable.
> 
> Indeed I got funny looks and adverse remarks recently whilst shopping in a Mercadona.
> 
> However I ignored the looks , rose above the insults, put my shorts back on -and left the store without even commenting


Obviously you were confused with Walmart - huge difference not only in the store but also in the customers.


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## mrypg9

Williams2 said:


> I do wish folks would drop the old 20th century adage _working class_ - were in the 21st century now - where
> such distinctions have become blurred almost beyond recognition.


I agree which is why I usually write it: 'working class'. Only unreconstructed leftists use it seriously today.
After all, working people can earn anything from £10k a year or even less to £500 k a year or even more.
Same with the term 'capitalist'. All of us with savings or pension investments are capitalists.


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## Justina

*Rolex*



Pesky Wesky said:


> I agree, It's the bragging that does it, although I have too admit I have a loathing for "Names" Loewe/ Desigual/ Burberry/ MontBlanc or even Xhi Wan Woo I don't like the name being an important part of the product.
> 
> I don't have a problem with anybody going anywhere, "working class" Noveau Riche or stinking rich as long as they treat the place they are in with respect. Puking your guts up on street corners, leaving rubbish on beaches and displaying all body parts imaginable in all places imaginable is not "respectful" IMO


I wouldn't know a Rolex if it hit me in the face, and likewise most of the big names.
But, as I don't have the dosh for them, they pass me by.


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## mrypg9

Justina said:


> I wouldn't know a Rolex if it hit me in the face, and likewise most of the big names.
> But, as I don't have the dosh for them, they pass me by.


I saw a Rolex in a pawnshop window in Estepona last night.
What a sad fate for such a noble timepiece....


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> I saw a Rolex in a pawnshop window in Estepona last night.
> What a sad fate for such a noble timepiece....


All the pictures I have seen captioned "Rolex" give the impression that those watches are ugly carbuncles on ones wrist which catch on anything and everything. I much prefer my ancient Citizen to which I have just fitted a new bracelet after 25 years of use.


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> All the pictures I have seen captioned "Rolex" give the impression that those watches are ugly carbuncles on ones wrist which catch on anything and everything. I much prefer my ancient Citizen to which I have just fitted a new bracelet after 25 years of use.


I've got a kinetic Seiko, a model that was discontinued about fifteen years or more ago. I remember seeing one in a jeweller's window and coveting itbut it was far too expensive for me, around £700.
A couple of years ago I was idly scrolling through ebay in search of a new watch, my old one being beyond repair through being soaked in sea water when I saw my coveted watch offered, new and boxed...for £250. A watch repairer had somehow got hold of a few items of brand new discontinued stock. After some haggling, we agreed a price of £175. So I now have a watch I wanted for years...
It is often mistaken for a Rolex..


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## Rabbitcat

I bought my late bruv a cheapo knock off Rolex many years ago.

He had a problem with the bracelet and took it to a local jewellers . Even though he knew full well it was a cheap copy my bruv told the jeweller to be careful with it as I had spent £900 on this beautiful prezzy for him!!!

The jeweller was really hesitant and in two minds to " break the news" to my bruv that it was a fake!!

He eventually told my bruv he should double check with me where I had bought it and have it checked over.

My bruv feigned his continuing pride with his " expensive Rolex"


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## jimenato

Mine´s a Casio - about 25 quid from memory. I´ll keep it until the battery needs changing and then buy a new one - I´d get bored keeping the same watch for years as 
I´d have to if I bought an expensive one over 50 quid.

I had a colleague once who wore an expensive Rolex and I asked him why. His answer was that it helped pull the birds which I suppose is a pretty good reason.

But would I want the kind of woman that was impressed by a watch?

Probably.:eyebrows:


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## baldilocks

jimenato said:


> Mine´s a Casio - about 25 quid from memory. I´ll keep it until the battery needs changing and then buy a new one - I´d get bored keeping the same watch for years as
> I´d have to if I bought an expensive one over 50 quid.
> 
> I had a colleague once who wore an expensive Rolex and I asked him why. His answer was that it helped pull the birds which I suppose is a pretty good reason.
> 
> But would I want the kind of woman that was impressed by a watch?
> 
> Probably.:eyebrows:


Reminds me of the joke about Little Johnny, when his sister was about to sneak off into her room with her boyfriend for a bit of *****. As the boyfriend was closing the door on an inquisitive Little Johnny, he said to the boyfriend "I wanna watch" which is how Little Johnny came to be sporting a Rolex.


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## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> Mine´s a Casio - about 25 quid from memory. I´ll keep it until the battery needs changing and then buy a new one - I´d get bored keeping the same watch for years as
> I´d have to if I bought an expensive one over 50 quid.
> 
> I had a colleague once who wore an expensive Rolex and I asked him why. His answer was that it helped pull the birds which I suppose is a pretty good reason.
> 
> But would I want the kind of woman that was impressed by a watch?
> 
> Probably.:eyebrows:


The Rolex inthe pawnshop window was arather elegant ladies' model. Sandra needs a replacement watch and we discussed buying it with my son ( who has a Rolex, birthday gift from wife, cue predictable reaction from some) as we thought it might be both useful object and investment as they keep their value.
Anyway we decided not to as it could well be a fake and we wouldn'tknow. (that rather begs the question as to the point of having a real one). 
I do wonder why people sneer or pretend to look down on people who ownexpensive watches, flash cars etc. If they have money, why not spend it? Why keep it invested?
If I won the lottery I'd buy a Maserati convertible, slate grey. I might buy a nice watch. I'd try more expensive wines. I'd fly first class.
I'd also give a lot away, though. But I don't do the lottery as gamblingof any kind is one vice I don't have.


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## Alcalaina

I haven't worn a watch of any description since 22 May 2008, when I arrived in Spain.


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## Justina

*Sneering*

I certainly wouldn't sneer at anyone who buys a flash car or expensive watch, although would privately wonder why. However, I would buy really good quality shoes and a couple of cashmere sweaters if I could.


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## Alcalaina

Justina said:


> I certainly wouldn't sneer at anyone who buys a flash car or expensive watch, although would privately wonder why. However, I would buy really good quality shoes and a couple of cashmere sweaters if I could.


Exactly, because they make a material difference to your comfort. But a watch is just a thing to tell you the time and as long as it does that, it doesn't matter whether it cost €10 or €10,000.


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## baldilocks

Alcalaina said:


> But a watch is just a thing to tell you the time and as long as it does that, it doesn't matter whether it cost €10 or €10,000.


But it does matter if it doesn't tell the time very well.


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## Justina

*Goodies*



Alcalaina said:


> Exactly, because they make a material difference to your comfort. But a watch is just a thing to tell you the time and as long as it does that, it doesn't matter whether it cost €10 or €10,000.


Agreed. I don't know what a maserati looks like, but do recognise a fiat. But I did see in the Daily Mail the rich from the Middle East flashing their cars around London a couple of weeks ago and the mind, at least mind boggled at the vulgarity of it all, but suppose it is to flash the cash.


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## jojo

Justina said:


> I certainly wouldn't sneer at anyone who buys a flash car or expensive watch, although would privately wonder why. However, I would buy really good quality shoes and a couple of cashmere sweaters if I could.


The very rich who buy "flash" cars, watches etc, simply move the decimal point in their lives. The percentage spend is no more to them than a percentage of their wealth, just like the rest of us

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

Justina said:


> Agreed. I don't know what a maserati looks like, but do recognise a fiat. But I did see in the Daily Mail the rich from the Middle East flashing their cars around London a couple of weeks ago and the mind, at least mind boggled at the vulgarity of it all, but suppose it is to flash the cash.


I saw a Maserati in Birmingham years ago and loved the car. And why not?
I agree with Peter Mandelson. He is nearly always misquoted but what he said was that he had no problem with people being filthy rich as long as they pay their taxes. That's how I feel.
All wealth is relative. Many people are wealthier than I, many poorer. I buy the best I can afford. On the whole, more expensive things are of better quality and last longer.
My gran always said poor people can't afford to buy cheap. We saved for good shoes and clothes because they would last. I run a LR Freelander with over 200000km on the clock. Bodywork and interior like new, engine etc. good. Find me a Fiat like that....
There is no vice in wealth and no virtue in poverty. There is envy and snobbery. Alwáys will be, humans are like that.
As for vulgarity...I'm a bit of a prude. I was brought up in the belief that' breeding' dignity and good manners are not the sole preserve of the upper classes but are characteristics acquired through good parenting and a solid family background with sound valúes so I find much of modern life 'vulgar'. So yes, the flash Arabs are imo indeed vulgar but less for their rather horrible cars than for the vile politicsof the despotic regimes that enable their wealth.


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## jojo

Justina said:


> Agreed. I don't know what a maserati looks like, but do recognise a fiat. But I did see in the Daily Mail the rich from the Middle East flashing their cars around London a couple of weeks ago and the mind, at least mind boggled at the vulgarity of it all, but suppose it is to flash the cash.


Its all about success I guess. Ever since humans were invented, its been instinct for us to aspire, to be the best at whatever is important to us. So having a flash car etc is the modern way of showing the world (well, whoever's interested) that success has been achieved????

Jo xxx


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## baldilocks

jojo said:


> Ever since humans were invented, its been instinct for us to aspire, to be the best at whatever is important to us.


Not really. For millennia, it was about surviving, lasting through the seasons and all that they threw at the world's population (heat, cold, drought, flooding, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, wild animals hell-bent on killing or be killed for food, etc), hunting/gathering enough food to keep the family alive, finding the means to stay warm, learning what herbs and other treatments would help to cure illnesses, protecting themselves from wild animals who perceived them as a tasty meal/snack, etc. etc.


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## jojo

baldilocks said:


> Not really. For millennia, it was about surviving, lasting through the seasons and all that they threw at the world's population (heat, cold, drought, flooding, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, wild animals hell-bent on killing or be killed for food, etc), hunting/gathering enough food to keep the family alive, finding the means to stay warm, learning what herbs and other treatments would help to cure illnesses, protecting themselves from wild animals who perceived them as a tasty meal/snack, etc. etc.


True, but also within the hierarchy of the tribe, there were the leaders, the successful ones, natural selection, meaning the strongest survived.

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Not really. For millennia, it was about surviving, lasting through the seasons and all that they threw at the world's population (heat, cold, drought, flooding, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, wild animals hell-bent on killing or be killed for food, etc), hunting/gathering enough food to keep the family alive, finding the means to stay warm, learning what herbs and other treatments would help to cure illnesses, protecting themselves from wild animals who perceived them as a tasty meal/snack, etc. etc.


I still think the basic human instinct is to fear death and survive. We just do it in more 'sophisticated' ways.
We also seem to have an destructive streak in our genetic makeup. Possibly a competitive streak too. Not sure about that, though, as it may be an offshoot of the survival urge.
On the whole, I don't think we're a very nice species.


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