# Thinking of relocating to Spain...!



## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

Hola everyone...
Nope I don't speak Spanish as yet but I'm starting to teach myself lol and given up a few times already 
I've not been back to Spain for a few years now and I miss it every day. That of course is not a good enough reason to sell up and move.
What I need to do now is look at all the pros and cons and make a decision ASAP based on reality and need. It doesn't mean need for sun and beer, maybe more like warmer climate, sunshade and G & T  Funny thing is I'm almost tea total but always seemed to get into the (spirit!) of things when I was there lol

I have so many questions and probably many others I'm not even aware of just yet I'm sure! So plz do suggest directions?
The biggest question I always use to ask myself is, am I going to Spain or leaving the UK!...Sounds silly I know, but what I really mean is, did I want to leave the UK more than I wanted to go to Spain!! (Didn't I just say that lol) 

I was looking at property a few years ago, only found 1 out of about 30 places I looked at and it still wasn't 100% right. That was more of a look and see if anything felt right as I wasn't really ready to make the move for various reasons.
Money is now not going to go as far perhaps so that is a big worry!!

Ok, I'll list a few things I would welcome feedback and any info you might think would help me.

I would like a place inland S East Spain, depending on costs maybe big enough to split the land if possible at some point to sell off half of it, possibly build a house on the 2nd plot. (just an idea, probably lack of funds for this!)
I want olive trees as would like the land to have some income although I would expect this wouldn't be much!
How much can you make from growing olives anyway?
I guess it depends on size of trees and plot but like some detailed figures plz?
What are the Tax implications from income like this?

What's happening with rural property prices, where is it compared to 3 years or so ago?

I'm self employed sole trader at the moment, can I do the same in Spain & are there extra costs, more Tax than I would pay in the UK etc?

I've seen a post on here for cost of living but that was further North, what are the average living costs in S East Spain inland not coastal? Say inland Alicante region!
Costs for Petrol, food, Electric, bottled gas, logs to last a winter, land line, broadnband, mobile, car tax, mot etc etc?
Of course I understand a rural spot is going to be hard to find electricity sometimes let alone broadband!

I'm in IT but not sure what the demand would be for a brit English only speaking (so far)?
Is there a demand for IT bods to support brits?

I'm hoping I can build a more simple life and be as self sufficient as possible, wind turbine, solar panel etc to help keep the costs down.
I've never had a typical holiday in Spain, I was always busy helping out, be that cutting down the odd dead olive tree, stacking wood, ploughing the land and even helping someone extend their Vila.

Very sorry for this looooong posting, but this could be my 1st steps to a complete life change so it's important!!! so be gentle.
Thanx eace:


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## vonny (Jan 15, 2010)

Hi I am new to this site.. my husband has just finished serving 22yrs in the Army and now he and myself are looking to rent in Spain for approx six months to one year to see how we feel about living in Spain and then look for long term let.. I am not sure where to look for the best to be honest for rental, so any suggestions would be more than welcome...

Many Thanks

Yvonne


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Muddy, the first thing you should do is try to come out and rent for a short period of time, just to get a feel for the place! As Vonny has said, you need to see how it feels when you are actually here. That way you can find out and understand a bit about olive growing. 

Tax in Spain if you are self employed (autonomo) I think is around 260€ a month and you must pay that every month I believe, but it is a flat rate, unlike the UK which is a a percentage and sliding scale.

As for phone/internet etc, well even in the campo (rural) areas, there are various ways, satelite, wifi etc which actually work out cheaper than telefonica and are probably more efficient (well mine is) and there are plenty of Brit IT bods around who will help you

As for the cost of living, well apart from gas (which is a bit cheaper cos it comes in bottles), its roughly the same as the UK. Buying a car is dearer, white goods are dearer. Council tax is cheaper, petrol is cheaper, cigarettes and alcohol are cheaper, but most other things are about the same these days,

The one thing you MUST be wary of is buying a property and then expecting to be able to add solar panels, wind turbines etc.. Altho these things are very topical at the moment, so is the "illegal build" issue and you would need all manner of permissions and authorisations to be allowed to erect anything or add to your porperty. 

So get over here and take a look and rent for a while, before you commit yourself is my advise

Jo xxx


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

vonny said:


> Hi I am new to this site.. my husband has just finished serving 22yrs in the Army and now he and myself are looking to rent in Spain for approx six months to one year to see how we feel about living in Spain and then look for long term let.. I am not sure where to look for the best to be honest for rental, so any suggestions would be more than welcome...
> 
> Many Thanks
> 
> Yvonne


Heck Yvonne, Spain is a big place lol!!!!! What do you want?? Theres the beautiful mountains, theres the coasts, theres inland, there are the cities, culture, history, the campos, tourist areas, hundreds of expat communities everywhere...............

What you need to do is work out what you want from Spain and the things you're gonna need - ie, have you got family in the UK? So do you want to be relitavely near an airport? Do you want to be near a beach....... Have a look on "google earth" and try to find an area that ticks the boxes, have a look at some of the other posts on here about your chosen area, ask more questions and then come over and see it.

Welcome to the forum BTW 

Jo xxxx


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

jojo said:


> Muddy, the first thing you should do is try to come out and rent for a short period of time, just to get a feel for the place!
> Jo xxx


Thanx for the feedback Jo
My stays were usually 3 weeks when I came over and I stayed with friends so I got a good feal for life in the campo! I guess it would be safer to make sure by trying to rent for a while but funds are tight so depends on cost and how much time I can spare!
There would be no point in me renting unless it was out of town of course, so not sure how easy that would be to get set up!

So the autonomo flat rate of tax is payable if you make zero!? But is there a scale of increase to income I can have a look at or does it not work that way?

Brit IT bods; great plenty around to help, not so great as I'm an IT bod also lol

Cost of living;
Well I must start doing more research, a few years ago when I was there I was told cost of living was a lot cheaper, but perhaps inflation or other factor has had an effect!

Property;
Yeah I've seen so many programs on Spain, seeing people having there houses knocked down is hard watching.
I assumed as Spain is in the forefront of solar power that it wouldn't be too hard to do this on a small scale for your own property if its out of town, but another thing I'll add to me list to check on regulation for this!

One of my big worries is what will happen with property prices here and in sunny Spain this year, currency changes also a big factor. It's all a mater of timing I guess.

Thanx again for the feedback


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Muddy said:


> Thanx for the feedback Jo
> My stays were usually 3 weeks when I came over and I stayed with friends so I got a good feal for life in the campo! I guess it would be safer to make sure by trying to rent for a while but funds are tight so depends on cost and how much time I can spare!
> There would be no point in me renting unless it was out of town of course, so not sure how easy that would be to get set up!
> 
> ...


I'm not an expert on the tax thing over here, but I do know when my OH was gonna move over here, thats what we found - self employed is the same as "autonomo" and that was the flat rate ammount he was quotede - great if you earn tons, but not so great if you dont or it varies!!! There are others who pop into the forum who'll put you right or have a look thru previous posts - do a search for "autonomo"

Yes Spain is in the forefront of solar energy - but Spain doesnt use logic when it comes to properties, nor does "the left hand know what the right hand is doing" over here lol!!!!! Just be cautious on that one.

Property prices are expected to go down here again this year - but who knows for sure??? 

Any yes, sadly you will be one of squillions of IT bods. But if you shine out above the rest???

Jo xxx


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Hi , the 260e is not your tax it is the minimum soc. sec. payment monthly.This is payable as soon as you register regardless of any income. You can pay more in if you want a pension above the basic. On top of this you have tax & vat payments every 3 mths plus a monthly fee to the asesoria to do the bookwork. There is no minimum vat threshold in Spain, where under a certain amount you don't need to pay vat, like there is in the Uk. 

Olive growing you'll never make any money at the present prices. Over the last 7 yrs the price has only gone one way, down. I picked 1,7tonnes this year to earn the princely sum of 450e. Even with 1,000 trees @ 40kgs. a tree with an oil % of 21 you would be lucky to clear 12k before expenses. Most Spaniards, and me, involve the family to pick, so you dont have to pay labour. You can have them picked by machine but that's around 200e an hour plus del. & collection! When the prices are good around 3,5e , yes the figures add up but at present they don't. Hops this helps.


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

gus-lopez said:


> Hi , the 260e is not your tax it is the minimum soc. sec. payment monthly.


Hi again Jo, thanx for all the info and advice.
Thanx gus-lopez for the Tax info.

If I do shake a few olives off my future trees does the tax mentioned above apply?
Just wondering if someone was retired or just not working how they deal with getting a few euros for their olives?

Very disappointed with how little income it appears I could make on olive oil as it's not cheap here in UK!
Was hoping it would have been a lot more than this, still the reality usually hurts!
Surely Spaniards are not paying such high flat-rate tax for such little income from a small plot of olive trees, are they just being left to rot in the fields or is there any cash in hand to save them from doing this?
Or as Gus says the e260 is not tax, that's for healthcare etc and any income will be tax on top!

Can you clarify please;
If I spend more than 180 days a year in Spain will I have to pay tax in Spain!?
Or is this consecutive days only. I was told 4 years ago that I could leave the country and come straight back every six months etc, or is this nonsense?
I’ve always paid tax but so far after all I’ve read Spain’s tax system would mean me loosing out I think as I don’t work that much and IT freelance is never regular.

Gus;
When you say “This is payable as soon as you register regardless of any income.”
I assume you mean register as “autonomo”?

Anyone know of a website or software where I can compare UK and Spain living and working costs!?
I guess I could bodge up a spreadsheet but something built for the job would be better!
What I would like is to be able to input UK and Spain details and compare the lot so I know how much tax etc etc etc!!
I don’t plan on making any move unless I know all the costs in detail.

Thanx again for all the feedback so far, very helpful 
John AKA (Muddy)


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

John

Tax etc - As soon as you are an autonomo - which you'll need to be to issue VAT receipts - You have to pay your Social Security dues. And do the tax thing and quarterly VAT. You can always TRY to work for cash - but there are political moves afoot to slam this VERY HARD indeed. Spain is well up the list for taking cash and so not adding/declaring vat. And the EU is pressuring hard. Spain heading the UE this semester is not on your side.

Olives etc - You'll be better off "letting" somebody else pick them with a proviso they leave you some and give you some of the oil back once pressed. This is pretty standard in rural Spain.

The 180day rule is still a bit grey - but it's interpreted as 180 total in any 12 month period more often than not now. 

I'm not sure how they police it - but you need to careful. In many areas running ANY business from a residential address (especially in the "urbanisaziones") is frowned upon if not actually contrary to the urban status (in ours it is straight up not allowed) - And neighbours can and will complain to the town hall who immediately send the police to check. This (believe me) stops being amusing after the 2nd or 3rd visit.

IT freelance work here is VERY irregular. And nowhere NEAR as well paid.

Cost of living is very dependant on where and how you live. If you buy food/veg and Olive Oil in local farmer type markets prices can seem cheap. Shop in a supermarket and look for English foodstuffs, you may well cringe.

A lot of taxes - like car tax/rates/rubbish collection etc etc vary from village to village as they are local taxes. 

Public transport is cheaper and certainly here in Madrid very reliable/frequent but prices shot up massively this year. In other areas I know this is not the same.

Don't tell anybody - but I work in a small village town hall. They cannot really afford me - so are happy I work only 17hours a week (IT btw). No way I could live of this - but it's closer to a hobby than "work".


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Muddy said:


> Very disappointed with how little income it appears I could make on olive oil as it's not cheap here in UK!


John I'm also in IT and have considered earning money in Spain both from IT and something similar to your olives (rural tourism).

After weighing up all the pros and cons I decided to earn my money in the UK and live as much time as I could in Spain. 

After some time you may find, as I and a friend of mine have, that you can perform UK IT support contracts from Spain with just a good internet connection. Thus have the best of both worlds.

By not putting my income needs within Spain I of course tie myself to the UK but as a counter balance I have also been able to choose my Spanish location based on quality of life and low cost of living.

It depends of course on what type of IT you do but in the UK £300+ per day for technical support was easy even in the pit of recession. Living in the Spanish countryside without fluent Spanish I think you will struggle to match that.

But good luck with your dream. It took me a while to organise but the rewards are well worth it.


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

chris(madrid) said:


> John
> 
> Tax etc - As soon as you are an autonomo - which you'll need to be to issue VAT receipts - You have to pay your Social Security dues. And do the tax thing and quarterly VAT.


Thanx Chris for the info..
Yeah I've never worked for cash apart from a couple of small jobs over the last 10 years, peeps just don't want to pay cash it seems lol
My idea was to have quality of life and slow things down so no point in worrying about things when you're going to all the effort to move out there right 

Olives; Well I guess it depends on how big the plot is and how many trees, but I'm not sure my brain could handle giving money away for a few gallons of oil back in return if there were some reasonable earnings, but I can see now probably not worth crying over unless I had a big-ish plot!

ANY business from a residential address;
If I do get out there it will hopefully be a plot of land with a small house 30 to 40 ish miles inland off a dusty side trail. This is what I experenced and is what I like so *what are the rules for running types of business out in the sticks?*

Sounds like you have some nice neighbours! What were you doing to bother them if anything?

Gr8 that you got yourself in at the Town hall, my lips are sealed 
I assume you speak fluent Spanish if you got in that door!
Thanx for all the detailed info, didn't know car tax was local tax etc!

------------------------------------


nigele2 said:


> John I'm also in IT and have considered earning money in Spain both from IT and something similar to your olives (rural tourism).


Hi Nigele
Thanx for the reply..
That's an interesting mix (rural tourism)! I did think about a B & B when I found a property 4 years ago that had a brand new cycle route tarmacked over an old disused railway, gr8 plot of land but it had very few trees (olive trees) lol But it was a great spot for walkers and bikers passing by.

IT Support;
In truth I would like to leave the IT support behind and start a fresh, but if I could get £300 a day a few times a week then I would be up for that.
I was on a bit more a while back but no work now, but I only got 1 or 2 days work a week and the odd office move or Server build.
I use to work for small companies and they always needed a lot of hand holding so even tho I had full remote to sites they almost always wanted me to visit the office once a week, obviously a none runner from pool-side!
I assume you use an agency to get contracts rather than having clients direct?
So do you limit your days per year in sunny Spain to stay within the UK tax system or isn't that much of a problem for you?

Yeah I'm sure I will find it hard to make ends meat as I don't speak the lingo...!
But perhaps it might be possible for me to support just UK based clients (phone only) and maybe some Spanish based English companies but unlikely me thinks..!

Gr8 to hear you're enjoying the life there, I'm still thinking hard if it's going to be right for me but all the info from you guys so far has been a big help.
Cheers
John


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Sounds like you have some nice neighbours! What were you doing to bother them if anything

I don't know about Spain but I do know that if we were still in the UK and running our business from premises we had bought, paid commercial rates on, all the usual overheads and knew that our neighbours were running a business from their home, paying domestic rates, no extra overheads etc. .....we'd have been a bit peeved, to say the least.


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## pinkchic (Jan 23, 2010)

*pinkchic*



Muddy said:


> Hola everyone...
> Nope I don't speak Spanish as yet but I'm starting to teach myself lol and given up a few times already
> I've not been back to Spain for a few years now and I miss it every day. That of course is not a good enough reason to sell up and move.
> What I need to do now is look at all the pros and cons and make a decision ASAP based on reality and need. It doesn't mean need for sun and beer, maybe more like warmer climate, sunshade and G & T  Funny thing is I'm almost tea total but always seemed to get into the (spirit!) of things when I was there lol
> ...


Hi i have one word of advice for you DONT DO IT !! i have lived here for ten years and the truth is the spanish have had our money they don´t want us anymore, i work here, have children here 2 born here seriously save yourself the heartache and stay put, there is absolutley nothing here for an english person wanting to work here especially self employed, ys they´ll take your money, yes they´ll smile while your bank account is full,one it runs out try to get help for yourself and it´s no no no , please don´t come here i´m trying desperatly to get out , yes i still own a house here yes i own a business here so ask yourself why i want to go home, spain is good for a holiday or quick break with rose tinted glasses nothing more, don´t be fooled there are thousands of people every month going home.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

pinkchic said:


> Hi i have one word of advice for you DONT DO IT !! i have lived here for ten years and the truth is the spanish have had our money they don´t want us anymore, i work here, have children here 2 born here seriously save yourself the heartache and stay put, there is absolutley nothing here for an english person wanting to work here especially self employed, ys they´ll take your money, yes they´ll smile while your bank account is full,one it runs out try to get help for yourself and it´s no no no , please don´t come here i´m trying desperatly to get out , yes i still own a house here yes i own a business here so ask yourself why i want to go home, spain is good for a holiday or quick break with rose tinted glasses nothing more, don´t be fooled there are thousands of people every month going home.



Gosh, thats a little harsh. Dont forget the Spanish may have been grateful that the british chose their country to live, but the British didnt just chose Spain for the sunshine - it was, until fairly recently very cheap to live here - certainly compared to the UK. 

Its still a different way of life here and there are still people who want to get out of the UK. It works both ways doesnt it - have those who want to leave Spain got rose tinted glasses on about the UK??

Jo xxx


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## Hombre (Sep 10, 2009)

pinkchic said:


> Hi i have one word of advice for you DONT DO IT !! i have lived here for ten years and the truth is the spanish have had our money they don´t want us anymore, i work here, have children here 2 born here seriously save yourself the heartache and stay put, there is absolutley nothing here for an english person wanting to work here especially self employed, ys they´ll take your money, yes they´ll smile while your bank account is full,one it runs out try to get help for yourself and it´s no no no , please don´t come here i´m trying desperatly to get out , yes i still own a house here yes i own a business here so ask yourself why i want to go home, spain is good for a holiday or quick break with rose tinted glasses nothing more, don´t be fooled there are thousands of people every month going home.


I find it hard to believe that someone with such a poor grasp of their native language can be self employed. Little or no punctuation, total lack of grammar, can't spell.
If your bank account is empty, then presumably you have failed...so let's blame it on the Spanish eh ?
Can't see the Spanish losing any sleep when you depart these shores.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

pinkchic said:


> Hi i have one word of advice for you DONT DO IT !! i have lived here for ten years and the truth is the spanish have had our money they don´t want us anymore, i work here, have children here 2 born here seriously save yourself the heartache and stay put, there is absolutley nothing here for an english person wanting to work here especially self employed, ys they´ll take your money, yes they´ll smile while your bank account is full,one it runs out try to get help for yourself and it´s no no no , please don´t come here i´m trying desperatly to get out , yes i still own a house here yes i own a business here so ask yourself why i want to go home, spain is good for a holiday or quick break with rose tinted glasses nothing more, don´t be fooled there are thousands of people every month going home.


Sorry it didn't work out. What went wrong do you think?


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

pinkchic said:


> Hi i have one word of advice for you DONT DO IT !!


pinkchic I think your warning won't do any harm but Spain is a big country supporting numerous life styles. I know many working foreigners in Spain who are very happy. Third hand I know some who are not but I think we must be careful of generalisations.

I have a friend who is a Dane. He is a flamenco guitar maker - self employed artisan. He had no previous reputation. Now you would think that was a formula for disaster. However after 10 years he couldn't be happier or more accepted.

Spain is IMHO badly governed, lacks justice, lacks democracy, lacks cash, has an extreme class system, and so much corruption it is wise to trust noone who you do not know very well - but most people know that before they arrive. Equally it offers great opportunity, many cultures that are very different and wonderful, passion, art, great historic sites, wonderful landscapes, some great widelife, varied and rich lifestyles, .........

In my village, not the poorest part of Spain by a long way there are people on the bread line begging. These are not drop outs or drugos. If Mr Bean can't or won't help them then I see little reason why he should bail out foreign owned buisnesses.

You say you are based in Alicante; are you dependent on expats or tourism for your income? If not could you share what has gone wrong for you so we might all benefit?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

pinkchic said:


> Hi i have one word of advice for you DONT DO IT !! i have lived here for ten years and the truth is the spanish have had our money they don´t want us anymore, i work here, have children here 2 born here seriously save yourself the heartache and stay put, there is absolutley nothing here for an english person wanting to work here especially self employed, ys they´ll take your money, yes they´ll smile while your bank account is full,one it runs out try to get help for yourself and it´s no no no , please don´t come here i´m trying desperatly to get out , yes i still own a house here yes i own a business here so ask yourself why i want to go home, spain is good for a holiday or quick break with rose tinted glasses nothing more, don´t be fooled there are thousands of people every month going home.


I so feel for you, & there are so many in this situation - I personally know quite a few who have been doing very well for years who are now barely scraping by



> Originally posted by *Hombre* I find it hard to believe that someone with such a poor grasp of their native language can be self employed. Little or no punctuation, total lack of grammar, can't spell.
> If your bank account is empty, then presumably you have failed...so let's blame it on the Spanish eh ?
> Can't see the Spanish losing any sleep when you depart these shores.


that's just downright nasty


there are many here who have had successful businesses - not just immigrants but Spanish too - that are going under right now

I don't know pinkchic's situation but she could be one of those - maybe she screwed up, maybe she didn't - it's not for you (or me) to throw stones

the reality is, in Spain, that even if you have been paying into the system your entire life there isn't the state support available that there is in the UK - some, but not much & not for long

and don't forget family support - not necessarily financial - just having extended family around to help - how many of us have that here in Spain?










please please please can we have a multi-quote button

or if there is one where is it?:confused2:


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> that's just downright nasty


That's just hombre, he is often like that . Pity because his aggressive style hides some valid points. 




xabiachica said:


> there are many here who have had successful businesses - not just immigrants but Spanish too - that are going under right now


Very true and if these expat businesses were back in the UK what pecking order for support would the owners think is correct? UK businesses or polish plumbers to give an example? 

Does anyone know of any statistics that show the contribution of expat businesses to the economy and in particular to creating jobs for the spanish? I guess if there was a demonstrable case that in reality over recent years the contribution was greater than the exploitation then perhaps some help might be justifiable. But even then as Spain has no economy at the moment where would the money come from?

Very sad all round. Bring on the revolution


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

nigele2 said:


> That's just hombre, he is often like that . Pity because his aggressive style hides some valid points.


yes - it is a shame he feels the need to be aggressive

I know it's his style, but I feel that this time he's just gone too far



nigele2 said:


> Very true and if these expat businesses were back in the UK what pecking order for support would the owners think is correct? UK businesses or polish plumbers to give an example?
> 
> Does anyone know of any statistics that show the contribution of expat businesses to the economy and in particular to creating jobs for the spanish? I guess if there was a demonstrable case that in reality over recent years the contribution was greater than the exploitation then perhaps some help might be justifiable. But even then as Spain has no economy at the moment where would the money come from?
> 
> Very sad all round. Bring on the revolution




my point was that there is no_ real _government support for anyone, immigrant or not, no 'pecking order' in mind

& that a lot of immigrants don't have family support here, so maybe everything just _feels _worse


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Wherever you go in the world - there will be good times and bad times, good things and bad things, winners and losers, successes and failings - You will probably hit any of those things at any time through the course of a lifetime! Its human nature that we will nearly always have the desire to "run for home" when times are hard. 

I think on the forum, in the main, most of us are happy and settled in Spain and its interesting and sad to see someone who's obviously not feeling the same, but all opinions are allowed on here. I just hope that "pinkchic can resolve her problems and turn things around whether she has to stay in Spain or goes back to the UK

Jo xxx


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## pinkchic (Jan 23, 2010)

Didn´t realise that i would cause such a stir!!
just giving my opinion on a subject that i happen to know quite a bit about and feel qualified
to comment. I think this hombre fella should get a life who cares about boring punctuation, you got my point didn´t you! I bet your retired and don´t have to live in the world that working people live in on a daily basis. Anyway just for the record my business does rely on tourism and i´m doing alright obviously better in summer time. Thankyou to the other forum readers who knows this hombre´s style. I just came across this site and thought i would comment, i don´t normally comment on forums and i am offended by hombre´s personnal attack, i think yo need a chill pill fella!!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

pinkchic said:


> Didn´t realise that i would cause such a stir!!
> just giving my opinion on a subject that i happen to know quite a bit about and feel qualified
> to comment. I think this hombre fella should get a life who cares about boring punctuation, you got my point didn´t you! I bet your retired and don´t have to live in the world that working people live in on a daily basis. Anyway just for the record my business does rely on tourism and i´m doing alright obviously better in summer time. Thankyou to the other forum readers who knows this hombre´s style. I just came across this site and thought i would comment, i don´t normally comment on forums and i am offended by hombre´s personnal attack, i think yo need a chill pill fella!!



Yes, we all know and love Hombre and his style Dont be offended by him, he's lovely really! Of course its fine to come on to the forum with your opinion. It may not be the same as others, but its yours - maybe you could elaborate as to why you find Spain is no longer for you?? Most of the regulars on here have lived in Spain for a long time, some are married to Spanish, so it would be interesting to hear your side of things


Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

pinkchic said:


> QUOTE]
> 
> *Didn´t realise that i would cause such a stir!!*
> *just giving my opinion on a subject that i happen to know quite a bit about and feel qualified to comment.*
> ...


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I don't know about Spain but I do know that if we were still in the UK and running our business from premises we had bought, paid commercial rates on, all the usual overheads and knew that our neighbours were running a business from their home, paying domestic rates, no extra overheads etc. .....we'd have been a bit peeved, to say the least.


Well I that depends on business type but plz correct me if I'm wrong. I do remember reading about it a long while back.
So using a small bedroom as study, no visitors for business and no storage of stock on site etc I think should not be part liable!



pinkchic said:


> Hi i have one word of advice for you DONT DO IT !!


Thanx for the reply pinkchic.
Well I'm very sorry to hear you sound so unhappy there. I want to hear the bad as well as the good stories so if and when you have time do share your story?



jojo said:


> - it was, until fairly recently very cheap to live here - certainly compared to the UK.
> Jo xxx


Hi Jo, can you elaburate a little on what has "changed fairly recently!" to push up cost of living in Spain?



Hombre said:


> I find it hard to believe that someone with such a poor grasp of their native language can be self employed.


Hi Hombre
I myself am Dis-lex-sick!! + my written English isn't that hot, I need to check and recheck and it's a pain, but I get by. I left school at a very early age and made it to being a manager of an IT department a long time later. I've been made redundant 4 times in a row *((PANTS))!* I also started my own business and went self employed, done ok but now not doing so ok! So your comments sort of rubbed me up the wrong way a bit dude :boxing:
Sure it's more difficult but that doesn't mean I or others shouldn't or can't! 
eace:


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

What can I say??? Even when we moved here two years ago, the cost of living was a fair bit cheaper than the UK, but its gradually crept up and is now just about the same. Electricity and phone is about the same. Buying cars, white goods and electronics are a bit dearer here. Ciggies, booze and petrol are cheaper but most things in the supermarket are about the same - maybe a tiny bit less. But you get much better deals in the UK - you know, buy one get one free, three for two - they tend not to do that in Spain

Jo xxx


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## topcat83 (Apr 16, 2009)

Muddy said:


> Hi Hombre
> I myself am Dis-lex-sick!! + my written English isn't that hot, I need to check and recheck and it's a pain, but I get by. I left school at a very early age and made it to being a manager of an IT department a long time later. ..... So your comments sort of rubbed me up the wrong way....


Boy! I bet they did! 

My ex-husband also has a problem with reading and writing (he wouldn't let me call it dyslexic), and has managed to run his own very successful engineering business for 25 years. He passed his little problem onto his son - and he became the youngest working dive instructor in Egypt And at 20 has just picked up the NZ dealership for a well-known brand of rebreathers (scuba divers will know what I'm talking about!) 

Just because you can't spell or do grammar doesn't mean you're thick!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

topcat83 said:


> Boy! I bet they did!
> 
> My ex-husband also has a problem with reading and writing (he wouldn't let me call it dyslexic), and has managed to run his own very successful engineering business for 25 years. He passed his little problem onto his son - and he became the youngest working dive instructor in Egypt And at 20 has just picked up the NZ dealership for a well-known brand of rebreathers (scuba divers will know what I'm talking about!)
> 
> Just because you can't spell or do grammar doesn't mean you're thick!


Its a well known fact that many, many successful entrepreneurs and business men are dyslexic! So dont knock it!!!

Jo xxx


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

Thanx for the reply Jo..
So parity of sorts it would seem!
Funny, I would have thought after the £ falling about 25% against the Euro that would have helped keep prices down, other factors I guess.
As far as I'm concerned I hope the pound comes back up this year, Obama's new Bank rules might help! Maybe i the city bods stop buying gold for a change and the press stop kicking the pound at every chance they get maybe just maybe it will recover some ground 

Edit...........
Proof it takes me time to check what I've typed you guys got 2 posts in while I was checking lol


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Muddy said:


> Thanx for the reply Jo..
> So parity of sorts it would seem!
> Funny, I would have thought after the £ falling about 25% against the Euro that would have helped keep prices down, other factors I guess.
> As far as I'm concerned I hope the pound comes back up this year, Obama's new Bank rules might help! Maybe i the city bods stop buying gold for a change and the press stop kicking the pound at every chance they get maybe just maybe it will recover some ground



I pray everynight for the pound to rise (we're paid is in sterling). The UK government dont seem to want it to and everytime its creeps up (which its trying to at the mo) they come along and knock it down again!!!!!


Jo xxx


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

I get the feeling pinkchic is not dyslexic. I think she was writing in anger. 

Pinkchic your first post could offend some spaniards just as much as you might be offended by hombre. Yet in your second post you seem to infer you are doing OK. But you have experience of not getting help from Spain. 

Am I the only one confused?


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## Hombre (Sep 10, 2009)

Muddy said:


> Hi Hombre
> I myself am Dis-lex-sick!! + my written English isn't that hot, I need to check and recheck and it's a pain, but I get by. I left school at a very early age and made it to being a manager of an IT department a long time later. I've been made redundant 4 times in a row *((PANTS))!* I also started my own business and went self employed, done ok but now not doing so ok! So your comments sort of rubbed me up the wrong way a bit dude :boxing:
> Sure it's more difficult but that doesn't mean I or others shouldn't or can't!
> eace:


At no point in my post did I mention the word dyslexia. I mentioned poor grammar/spelling/punctuation, which is different altogether. If anyone finds these to be unimportant, then you have my sympathy. And to admit it is trivial whilst admitting to having children exacerbates it.
Pinkchic was extremely adamant that the Spanish are only out to get you,and will offer no help when required. Hers was a diatribe about a country and people of whom I am proud to be associated with. But no details of her “hardship” were given, it was just a general slagging off of anything Spanish. Well, sorry, but on behalf of all my Spanish friends, I find that to be insulting. We have found nothing but kindness and courtesy in our efforts to integrate into Spanish society. As for “thousands going home every month” , on what statistic is that based ? Incidentally, I get heartily sick and tired of ex pats that think they have emigrated out here and still refer to the UK as “home “. Then why emigrate ?


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

For the OP, I would not recommend to come to Spain at the moment. It's current economic climate makes life very difficult especially if you are a foreigner in Spain.

You will get positive replies from those who are well established already. But unfortunately you and many others have missed the boat.

Unless you have an income to drawn on and do not have to work, you will be fine. But if you are competing for work along with the spanish, you will be very last on the list. (my opinion).

However, Madrid is a good place to work if you have good IT skills in demand. Other places that are relying on tourism or full of expats are risky. 

I would give my opinion that what Pinkchic says once you have nothing to offer and no money to give, then you are unwanted can be true. It is true of all nationalities though. 

If you are lucky to have spanish friends, then you are quite unique. It takes many years to build friendships and very hard to get pass just a hello.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

NorthernLass said:


> For the OP, I would not recommend to come to Spain at the moment. It's current economic climate makes life very difficult especially if you are a foreigner in Spain.
> 
> You will get positive replies from those who are well established already. But unfortunately you and many others have missed the boat.
> 
> ...


Yes it can be true

Yes some blame the Spanish for their downfall, & I find that annoying too, but sometimes you wonder

Around here I have seen one (well many, but one in particular) well-established business in this town, which catered not only to Brits but also to Spanish, close down.

This family had come here 7 or 8 years ago & set up a much needed niche business, really well-run - all the licenses etc

Eventually (due to popular demand) they added another aspect to the business- also fully licensed

They speak Spanish & employed Spanish locals to work there

The business was providing a living for them - they were never going to be rich, but they were OK

Recently the 'rules' changed & they were visited by the licensing people & were told that they would revoke their license if they didn’t make some physical adjustments to the unit. These adjustments were impossible due to the position of the unit

They thought it odd so visited a couple of other similar businesses in the town

Another foreign-owned one had also been visited - they were able to comply with that particular new rule, but were pulled up on something else - which strangely the people I know weren’t - again it was something they couldn't possibly put right, so they were closing down

They then visited a Spanish-run ‘similar business’ (which I know well & would never have used personally)

They don’t comply with either of these new rules - but guess what?

Yes, their license was renewed

It’s very hard not to feel that foreigners are being picked on

This isn’t just happening to this business, it’s happening to bars & all sorts of other businesses too. If I’m honest, there were probably too many bars in any case & the best will survive, but I’ve seen the proof that Spanish owned businesses are being treated more leniently than foreign-owned.


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## pinkchic (Jan 23, 2010)

nigele2 said:


> I get the feeling pinkchic is not dyslexic. I think she was writing in anger.
> 
> Pinkchic your first post could offend some spaniards just as much as you might be offended by hombre. Yet in your second post you seem to infer you are doing OK. But you have experience of not getting help from Spain.
> 
> Am I the only one confused?


Yes you are correct i am far from dyslexic! and yes i suppose it could offend some spanairds. Let me explain a little more.
Yes i do have children so yes hombre i am not really bothered how i write on here but my children are educated and speak both spanish & english fluently, they have suffered at school from small minded spanish children telling them to go home because we are taking all their jobs and calling them foreigners, this comes from the parents of children who are poorly educated and see the influx of foreigners a threat not a golden opportunity.You see unless you are in this whole school , work system then these things do not affect you so you then can imagine they do not exist. Lots of people whom i have known have had to go back to britain against there will along with their children , these people have lived here had children born here but can no longer make a living . They have not failed but the system has failed them ,so yes nigel i write with anger for all these people who come here.
Full of hope to "live their dreams" and find themselves with nothing but a suitcase 
to go back to the country they came from with. If have known a case who contacted the british consulate in desperation to be told " we can get you back to the uk , that´s all we can do " then what do they do? 
I am one of the fortunate ones who have just had enough.


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

pinkchic said:


> Yes you are correct i am far from dyslexic! and yes i suppose it could offend some spanairds. Let me explain a little more.
> Yes i do have children so yes hombre i am not really bothered how i write on here but my children are educated and speak both spanish & english fluently, they have suffered at school from small minded spanish children telling them to go home because we are taking all their jobs and calling them foreigners, this comes from the parents of children who are poorly educated and see the influx of foreigners a threat not a golden opportunity.You see unless you are in this whole school , work system then these things do not affect you so you then can imagine they do not exist. Lots of people whom i have known have had to go back to britain against there will along with their children , these people have lived here had children born here but can no longer make a living . They have not failed but the system has failed them ,so yes nigel i write with anger for all these people who come here.
> Full of hope to "live their dreams" and find themselves with nothing but a suitcase
> to go back to the country they came from with. If have known a case who contacted the british consulate in desperation to be told " we can get you back to the uk , that´s all we can do " then what do they do?
> I am one of the fortunate ones who have just had enough.


Yes, I have similar worries about my children at school. They have not been told to go home but they are still in Primary school, maybe Secondary would be more hostile -- but as a mother I can feel that there is no welcome mat for my kids here..

Initially when we came, we were treated like VIPs, as there are no English kids around. Some are still nice to us, but the majority I feel that they would sooner we weren't here. Just a feeling..and it feels uncomfortable.

Those Brits - and it has to be a small percentage do well here, usually those who have been here for many years. Those who are older, and pose no threat to the spanish in the job market. 

Our honeymoon is now over and I can clearly see the full picture. Our British kids are not welcome here...and it's time to go back to the UK to where they are not foreigners...shame


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## Rofa (Dec 3, 2009)

Just thought I would drop this one in the pot.

Residential Tourism 'at a standstill' on the Costa del Sol

Must say, although I having been coming to Spain regularly either as a visitor or on business since Franco's days and have lived here for nigh on 15years, Spain would not be my first choice as a place to work unless I could work from home - don't like the Spanish working day on the whole. If I had special talents to offer the market, I'd look elsewhere where rewards can be significantly greater. And yes, I have worked ( and lived) in several European countries.


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

NorthernLass said:


> Yes, I have similar worries about my children at school. They have not been told to go home but they are still in Primary school, maybe Secondary would be more hostile -- but as a mother I can feel that there is no welcome mat for my kids here..
> 
> Initially when we came, we were treated like VIPs, as there are no English kids around. Some are still nice to us, but the majority I feel that they would sooner we weren't here. Just a feeling..and it feels uncomfortable.
> 
> ...



This post really surprises me actually as I've not heard about this here before. You say you are based in Northern Spain - whereabouts?? I could understand perhaps a more hostile feeling in a state school maybe further south which is dominated by Brit expat kids and it has been proven that education standards in the school have suffered as a result, but further north where Brit children in state schools are fewer?? Mine have been through primary here (one still is) and the other two are going through secondary now - never a problem. In fact, the "novelty" of their Englishness wore off a long time ago - especially as they are more "Spanish" now anyway and are fluent, but we've never been under the impression (nor have they) that there was a hostile attitude towards them whatsover.


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

Just a quick ps to my previous post :

Perhaps it's because living in Galicia is such a cosmopolitan feeling not because of the other nationalities of which there are quite a number, but because of the huge number of retornados and sons/daughters of retornados who are fully globalised, if not themselves, aware of being the foreigner in another land. The feeling I have here is very much that of being accepted and a member of the community and this applies to those Brits I know who live here.

There might be problems given the financial crisis and work situation, but racism is not a release valve that I've come across in Galicia.


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

Tallulah said:


> This post really surprises me actually as I've not heard about this here before. You say you are based in Northern Spain - whereabouts?? I could understand perhaps a more hostile feeling in a state school maybe further south which is dominated by Brit expat kids and it has been proven that education standards in the school have suffered as a result, but further north where Brit children in state schools are fewer?? Mine have been through primary here (one still is) and the other two are going through secondary now - never a problem. In fact, the "novelty" of their Englishness wore off a long time ago - especially as they are more "Spanish" now anyway and are fluent, but we've never been under the impression (nor have they) that there was a hostile attitude towards them whatsover.


Hi

Yes, I think moms like me are not often brave enough to give their opinion on a forum.

I had to come out and back up what Pinkchi feels. It's not all rosy for some. 

I didn't actually say there is a hostile attitude towards my children. My children are young so it is still quite innocent play. 

However, I can see that it happens to other Brit children. I feel for these children because they could be my children experiencing this day to day. It's just lucky for mine that we live in the North. But we are all still Spain... 

I love alot about Spain, but I sense that the future for our children will not easy because they are not spanish or part spanish.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Tallulah said:


> This post really surprises me actually as I've not heard about this here before. You say you are based in Northern Spain - whereabouts?? I could understand perhaps a more hostile feeling in a state school maybe further south which is dominated by Brit expat kids and it has been proven that education standards in the school have suffered as a result, but further north where Brit children in state schools are fewer?? Mine have been through primary here (one still is) and the other two are going through secondary now - never a problem. In fact, the "novelty" of their Englishness wore off a long time ago - especially as they are more "Spanish" now anyway and are fluent, but we've never been under the impression (nor have they) that there was a hostile attitude towards them whatsover.


I too am surprised which is not to say it doesn't exist and if that is what you are perceiving then it must be so, I'm just saying it surprises me and I therefore think it is not the norm.

Correct me if I’m wrong Northernlass, but it seems that you are under the impression that this forum doesn’t reflect real life for Brits in Spain. Or perhaps it doesn’t reflect your personal experience of the few years you have lived in a small town in the north of Spain?

Everybody’s experience and viewpoint is different although there’s a lot of overlap too. If most people on the forum are happy with their life in Spain I don’t see why we shouldn’t accept that as a reflection of British emigration to Spain. I think there is a real cross section of people on here; retired, workers, singles, people with children, workers, self employed In fact that’s one of things I enjoy about the forum, the variety.

Going back to Pinkchic, please don’t think I’m making light of your situation, but I don’t know why you think you’re going to be better off in the UK. There’s unemployment there too. Your children are Spanish, aren’t they? Can you find work and housing easily there? And, I don’t know why there’s an expectation that the Spanish authorities are going to help British unemployed and even less as to why the British consulate would help some one who emigrated to another country. Don’t get angry please – just explain!!


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I too am surprised which is not to say it doesn't exist and if that is what you are perceiving then it must be so, I'm just saying it surprises me and I therefore think it is not the norm.
> 
> Correct me if I’m wrong Northernlass, but it seems that you are under the impression that this forum doesn’t reflect real life for Brits in Spain. Or perhaps it doesn’t reflect your personal experience of the few years you have lived in a small town in the north of Spain?
> 
> ...



I think this forum is good. I enjoy reading the posts everyday and occasionally post myself. Of course, I would say that this forum does bring the true experiences of Brits in Spain..

We are different and I can just give my personal circumstances and experience, and my own thoughts and feelings. 

I do live in a small town in Asturias with young children, a husband who works and I teach English. That's me. I have also lived in the South so I can bring those experiences to my posts.


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

NorthernLass said:


> Hi
> 
> Yes, I think moms like me are not often brave enough to give their opinion on a forum.
> 
> ...



I feel for you - but I really do think that things look much worse than they really are in the current climate. I don't know about the rest of Spain, but there's an almighty stink currently going in the schools here because the regional government is intent in ramming English down the throat of the education system. So much so that that there are rumours (I must assume they are because it sounds crazy) that teachers of certain subjects, such as maths, must either be able to deliver the class in English or risk losing their jobs. I don't want to go off thread too much, but I would like to highlight that the perceived benefits of speaking "perfect" English to those who are looking to manage Galicia's future in commerce is clear and certainly not a negative in any form. Therefore, so far as our children's future is concerned, I consider their English attribute to be a huge stepping stone in to a no doubt difficult global work market. 

My earlier sentiments regarding racism (or lack of here) extend to the Institute - it's worth bearing in mind that so far as the day to day, by the time your children are of employment age, their being English will only come to the fore if they have to show documents stating name and nationality etc - considering that they are being educated here and also if you remain in Spain, they will be able to communicate in their daily lives down the local, etc without anyone noticing a hint of "foreign" accent as they will be completely fluent and integrated (that is of course assuming they don't lose their English language capabilities - the standard maintenance of which is our main task today with our three kids).

By the way, don't let it worry you as there's quite a few of us mums on the forum here and it doesn't stop us from giving opinions - and then some!!!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

NorthernLass said:


> I think this forum is good. I enjoy reading the posts everyday and occasionally post myself. Of course, I would say that this forum does bring the true experiences of Brits in Spain..
> 
> We are different and I can just give my personal circumstances and experience, and my own thoughts and feelings.
> 
> ...


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## Rofa (Dec 3, 2009)

NorthernLass said:


> Hi
> 
> Yes, I think moms like me are not often brave enough to give their opinion on a forum.
> 
> ...


Well having been brought up in a fairly isolated town on the NW coast of England, with a German father and an English mother I can confirm that life was indeed hell for most of primary school. It's the way kids tend to be - they will usually pick on someone who is different! 
It eventually got much better of course. Just wait til the other children need help with their English homework...........


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## pinkchic (Jan 23, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I too am surprised which is not to say it doesn't exist and if that is what you are perceiving then it must be so, I'm just saying it surprises me and I therefore think it is not the norm.
> 
> Correct me if I’m wrong Northernlass, but it seems that you are under the impression that this forum doesn’t reflect real life for Brits in Spain. Or perhaps it doesn’t reflect your personal experience of the few years you have lived in a small town in the north of Spain?
> 
> ...


_ don´t think i´ll be better off in the uk , all i know is that i feel as a family "we have done our time here" my children have no accent when speaking spanish and
are totally at ease with the way of life, they give as good as they get from children at school (there not angels) We live in the east of spain where there are lots of brits but are my childrens schools there are very little english kids.
I have a perfectly good house which i live in here which if i return to the uk will still keep as a summer home!
My daughter on saturday went to a large shopping centre in murcia with some friends, while she was in a shop a shop assistant said to another in spanish "watch those english!" to which my daughter replied in fluent spanish she was upset at her attitude( or words to that effect ) the assistant then shocked replied "i´m sorry i didn´t realise you spoke spanish ", like that should matter! so the annomosity exists on all levels , my daughter is 14 years old and doesn´t need to be spoken to like that.
We have supported many things spanish, my daughter is a dancer and she competes throughout spain at latin and ballroom dancing, she also has danced flamenco since she was 5 years old, my son plays football for the town football team and this has also taken him all over spain ( he is the only english person in his team) so we have given spain a good go. I may stay i may go but that will be my decision in the end. I am quite surprised at the brits and how aggressive they can be at defending the spanish, one thing you will never be spanish and the spanish will never accept you as such, just my opinion of course!!:clap2:_


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

Hombre said:


> At no point in my post did I mention the word dyslexia. I mentioned poor grammar/spelling/punctuation, which is different altogether. If anyone finds these to be unimportant, then you have my sympathy. And to admit it is trivial whilst admitting to having children exacerbates it.
> Pinkchic was extremely adamant that the Spanish are only out to get you,and will offer no help when required. Hers was a diatribe about a country and people of whom I am proud to be associated with. But no details of her “hardship” were given, it was just a general slagging off of anything Spanish. Well, sorry, but on behalf of all my Spanish friends, I find that to be insulting. We have found nothing but kindness and courtesy in our efforts to integrate into Spanish society. As for “thousands going home every month” , on what statistic is that based ? Incidentally, I get heartily sick and tired of ex pats that think they have emigrated out here and still refer to the UK as “home “. Then why emigrate ?


Well if you mention "can't spell" and find it hard to believe someone can be self employed in the same sentence you will always find me there to pull you up on it!
You might not be intending to link two differing things but IMO you did.
And lastly spelling and dyslexia are very strongly related!

Anyways lets try to stick on topic :focus:
Very interesting to read all the replies coming to this thread, it's all helping to give a good all round idea on how life can be there which is gr8 to hear about 

One thing I picked up just above was what Tallulah said. If Spanish schools are forced to teach subjects in English. If this is only just a rumour then I think this might in it self cause a backlash of some degree towards brits.
Of course if it's done right it will help Spain in the long run.

Just reading what Rofa said. This indeed is an age old story, if you're different you're going to get some trouble, it's the way of the world.
I was taken to Ireland as a kid long........time ago and then we came back after a few years. Got the crap kicked out of me a couple of times and same when I came back to the UK, both times were just for having an accent!!

I think where ever anyone calls there home you're always going to run into someone who like or dislike you to differing degrees, and I can understand anyone wanting to move back to the UK if they're having problems talked about here.
My only advice would be for what's it's worth is think ahead, your kids may consider Spain their home now so putting up with this now might be better than them possibly going through the upheaval of moving back to the UK + they wont be kids forever.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

The reason schools are proposing to teach some sublects in english (my daughters school has done for a few years), isnt because of the "expat community" its because of the wider, business invironment - English seems to be the international business language!!??? And Spanish parents are keen for their children to learn the language fluently. My son is in an international school and I'd say theres a good 60% spanish children there purely cos their parents feel a total grasp of the language is important

Jo xxx


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

pinkchic said:


> _ don´t think i´ll be better off in the uk , all i know is that i feel as a family "we have done our time here" my children have no accent when speaking spanish and
> are totally at ease with the way of life, they give as good as they get from children at school (there not angels) We live in the east of spain where there are lots of brits but are my childrens schools there are very little english kids.
> I have a perfectly good house which i live in here which if i return to the uk will still keep as a summer home!
> My daughter on saturday went to a large shopping centre in murcia with some friends, while she was in a shop a shop assistant said to another in spanish "watch those english!" to which my daughter replied in fluent spanish she was upset at her attitude( or words to that effect ) the assistant then shocked replied "i´m sorry i didn´t realise you spoke spanish ", like that should matter! so the annomosity exists on all levels , my daughter is 14 years old and doesn´t need to be spoken to like that.
> We have supported many things spanish, my daughter is a dancer and she competes throughout spain at latin and ballroom dancing, she also has danced flamenco since she was 5 years old, my son plays football for the town football team and this has also taken him all over spain ( he is the only english person in his team) so we have given spain a good go. I may stay i may go but that will be my decision in the end. I am quite surprised at the brits and how aggressive they can be at defending the spanish, one thing you will never be spanish and the spanish will never accept you as such, just my opinion of course!!:clap2:_


_

...and to which you are entitled!! On the other side of the coin, I'm afraid you've got me rather confused. On the one hand, you have a daughter who "is a dancer and she competes throughout spain at latin and ballroom dancing "... You also have a son who's football playing takes him all over Spain, and he's the only English person on the team. So far, so marvelous.:clap2: Both majorly integrated, completely accepted and not surrounded at all by other Brits to be accepted by. On the other hand, your comment regarding the BRITS and how agressive they can be in defending the SPANISH, does leave me worried, but I don't want to go down that line as it would get messy. Suffice to say, that I tend to look at the people that surround me and not their nationality. 

OK - the shop incident - that happens - hell, it would happen in the UK but I don't think it's a predominantly Spanish attitude towards the Brits - it's merely usually a case of shopkeepers being wary of gaggles of teens, whatever nationality or perhaps they've had some probs with tourists or whatever in the past, who knows??. By the way, I've spoken to several retornados and they all have a story to tell about racist types being called "*****" etc, but not one of them did not think that the Brits were anything but wonderful people and that it's inevitable that prejudice and ignorance will be found wherever you are. Let's face it, I've been there myself working for a bi-national company where, interestingly especially when things got a bit rough, the standard way of relieving stress was to have a go at the other nationals, for whatever reason - even if the coffee machine wasn't at the correct temperature - that's how petty and ridiculous it can get. 

As I said before, I'm sure the financial crisis will bring a lot of this to the fore. It wasn't that long ago that British workers were up in arms about jobs going abroad. Imagine how any national working with them who belonged to that country where the contract might be awarded, was feeling?! All this at a time when the UK, like any other country, is competing for foreign contracts. It's sad, and hardly ever makes sense, but I'm convinced that a lot of what's going on today regarding immigrants in whichever country is a direct cause of the hardship. Why waffle on about this??...because it's much more difficult to keep in mind that people are generally good sorts and generalisations can be dangerous so far as stirring up emotions go. 

Having rambled on, I fully respect each individual's decision to map their own way in life - and if you find that returning to the UK is the answer to your troubles, then I wish you the very best of luck...just be prepared having read some of the comments left on newspaper reports regarding what's happening to Brits in Spain, for some ignorant comments from your very own countrymen however "oh, so you couldn't make it over there in Spain - now you're running back to the UK which you so readily left behind" etc - but probably much worse....lots of judges, juries and executioners around, I'm afraid._


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

jojo said:


> The reason schools are proposing to teach some sublects in english (my daughters school has done for a few years), isnt because of the "expat community" its because of the wider, business invironment - English seems to be the international business language!!??? And Spanish parents are keen for their children to learn the language fluently. My son is in an international school and I'd say theres a good 60% spanish children there purely cos their parents feel a total grasp of the language is important
> 
> Jo xxx


Absolutely Jo.

To Muddy - there isn't a backlash towards the Brits because of this - we're not enforcing anything on the education system - it's the Spanish government who are running this initiative. The only backlash is coming from the teachers who are going on strike at the moment and that is because their jobs could possibly be at risk if they are not competent to teach that subject in English. Then add to that the furore within autonomous communities regarding the maintenance of another language (here, Gallego) then that's what the problem is - nothing to do with Brits.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pinkchic.....have you considered the experiences of immigrants to the UK? Discrimination takes much more aggressive forms towards those foreigners than that experienced by most British immigrants to Spain. There are also many false ideas current about the kind of assistance immigrants to the UK are entitled to.
I do sympathise with your situation as the economic climate in Spain is for the foreseeable future likely to be harsh for all kinds of businesses and business people of all nationalities.
Yes, it's true that retired people don't have to worry about the daily stresses of work or running a business here - but consider that for very many of these people the depreciation of the £ and low UK interest rates have made life equally difficult.
We all came here under our own steam, for whatever reason, so I cannot see how those who wish to return should be assisted in any way by either the UK or Spanish Governments.
Life consists of risks and anyone emigrating to another country should have carefully considered all the posisible pitfalls before taking such a huge step.
As for the attitude of Spaniards to British immigrants - I am constantly amazed at the easy way in which Spanish people have assimilated so many immgrants from other European and non-European countries. Would that we Brits were so welcoming to strangers! Speaking the language does matter IMO if you are resident in another country. At the most basic level it's a matter of common courtesy.
I also have to say that I am disgusted by the boorish and appalling behaviour of a significant minority of British people here, whether immigrants or holidaymakers. The Spanish have their faults like other humans but the British do seem to have a special talent for vulgar, yobbish and drunken behaviour that few other nations can match, alas.


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## pinkchic (Jan 23, 2010)

:confused2:


mrypg9 said:


> Pinkchic.....have you considered the experiences of immigrants to the UK? Discrimination takes much more aggressive forms towards those foreigners than that experienced by most British immigrants to Spain. There are also many false ideas current about the kind of assistance immigrants to the UK are entitled to.
> I do sympathise with your situation as the economic climate in Spain is for the foreseeable future likely to be harsh for all kinds of businesses and business people of all nationalities.
> Yes, it's true that retired people don't have to worry about the daily stresses of work or running a business here - but consider that for very many of these people the depreciation of the £ and low UK interest rates have made life equally difficult.
> We all came here under our own steam, for whatever reason, so I cannot see how those who wish to return should be assisted in any way by either the UK or Spanish Governments.
> ...


Firstly i do speak spanish and it does help.

I don´t disagree with you regarding immgrants travelling to england and they probably do suffer at the hands of the british regarding handouts stealing jobs etc
without paying a penny into the british system, but when the british came to spain we all came equipped with a wallet full of money which some still have!
If people do decide to go back to the uk after their (little adventure in spain) then i think if people need a little help then why not that is your country of origin ,i would like to point out this does not involve my situation because i would go back
probably better off then when i arrived but after 10 years you would expect a natural progression of affluence no matter where in the world you migrated to. On all my posts i am referring to to other peoples situations that i have known apart from the ones involving my children and my own experiences dealing with the spanish people on a daily basis in business and in public service. I think we all appreciate the fall of the pound against the euro and try and make it go a little further but i honestly don´t think that a little hardship hurts anyone. I for one appreciate the value of things that i would normally take for granted. Hopefully the recession will soon be over and we can all start enjoying a more fuller life wherever it is in the world. I come from an area in spain which the property boom has left a big hole and at the time the spanish loved all things british but now there are houses left unsold, people just leaving there homes to return to the uk that is a fact which like it or not is happening, but i amagine this is the case for other areas in spain but i think my area is one of the most effected. I also think when you get a massive influx of people mainly british to a single area then it does spoil your view of the area as i certainly did not come to spain to live with mainly british people i came to get away from them and experience something different, if i did return to the uk then a would probably have a big mix of types of people living within my area but i have not been back for 3 years so who knows.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

pinkchic said:


> _
> My daughter on saturday went to a large shopping centre in murcia with some friends, while she was in a shop a shop assistant said to another in spanish "watch those english!" to which my daughter replied in fluent spanish she was upset at her attitude( or words to that effect ) the assistant then shocked replied "i´m sorry i didn´t realise you spoke spanish ", like that should matter! so the annomosity exists on all levels , my daughter is 14 years old and doesn´t need to be spoken to like that.
> 
> 
> _


_

A lot of the smaller shops in the UK dont let kids in at all - or they certainly only allow two in at a time. And they dont say "watch those English", they say to their faces "get out, theres kids in 'ere already" So the comment your daughter heard made is nothing at all really is it!? At least she wasnt asked to get out

Jo xxxx_


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## pinkchic (Jan 23, 2010)

jojo said:


> A lot of the smaller shops in the UK dont let kids in at all - or they certainly only allow two in at a time. And they dont say "watch those English", they say to their faces "get out, theres kids in 'ere already" So the comment your daughter heard made is nothing at all really is it!? At least she wasnt asked to get out
> 
> Jo xxxx


With respect this wasn´t a small shop it was in a large shopping centre, i have never heard of anyone telling kids to get out of shops in such a manner and if they do in the uk or anywhere else then they do not deserve to be in business, my daughter is a respectable young lady and is not one of the masses of teenagers you see hanging on street corners swigging out of a bottle of alcopops, she was with just 2 other girls not in a large "pack" The fact is the assistant thought she was being clever thinking she could not respond! which backfired.:confused2:


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

pinkchic said:


> With respect this wasn´t a small shop it was in a large shopping centre, i have never heard of anyone telling kids to get out of shops in such a manner and if they do in the uk or anywhere else then they do not deserve to be in business, my daughter is a respectable young lady and is not one of the masses of teenagers you see hanging on street corners swigging out of a bottle of alcopops, she was with just 2 other girls not in a large "pack" The fact is the assistant thought she was being clever thinking she could not respond! which backfired.:confused2:



I dont see that situation as a problem - it was simply a comment and the assistant was using the fact they were speaking English to differentiate. I'm sure your daughter is very respectable, but in the UK they cant discriminate or know which kids are or are not respectable. Even the larger shops would "keep an eye" on youths. So they're all treated the same wherever you go! But its not a nationality dicrimination, its a youth one

You do seem very unhappy with the Spain at the moment and it would be nice if you could tell us a bit more about it??? It may help us understand a bit better and of course help any potential newcomers.

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

pinkchic said:


> With respect this wasn´t a small shop it was in a large shopping centre, i have never heard of anyone telling kids to get out of shops in such a manner and if they do in the uk or anywhere else then they do not deserve to be in business, my daughter is a respectable young lady and is not one of the masses of teenagers you see hanging on street corners swigging out of a bottle of alcopops, she was with just 2 other girls not in a large "pack" The fact is the assistant thought she was being clever thinking she could not respond! which backfired.:confused2:


Unfortunately it is fairly common to find this attitude towards groups of teenagers or even younger children all over Europe. I've seen shops in the UK with notices posted to the effect that 'No unaccompanied minors allowed' or 'No more than three children at a time'. 
The real issue is that the level of honesty amongst the young of all nationalities in all too many cases falls below the standard expected or at least hoped for. Businesspeople -people in general -can perhaps be excused for being just a little suspicious and cynical.
Not just the young either -anyone in business with contact with the general public will have many tales to tell about attempted fraud, theft or general unwillingness to pay the price for services rendered.
We certainly have.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

If people do decide to go back to the uk after their (little adventure in spain) then i think if people need a little help then why not that is your country of origin


Well, you'd probably be entitled to at least a basic level of social security or income support or whatever it's called nowadays but I can't see why anyone who of their own free will has emigrated and then for whatever reason decides to return to the UK should get any additional help or subsidy.from the UK taxpayer.
When I was a student many decades ago I flew to Prague to stay with a Czech friend and then went on by train to Poland. On the way back to Prague to get my return flight home I was literally thrown off the train by armed soldiers at the Polish/Czech border and had to stay in Poland until the border reopened several days later. I missed my flight and had to hitch-hike home across Europe. The reason the border was closed was that I chose to travel into Prague on the night of the first anniversary of the Warsaw Pact invasion.
I went to the British Embassy in Prague to ask for help as I was by then practically penniless only to be told that they could do nothing for me and it was my own fault for choosing to travel on such an auspicious date!
If you can't get help in a situation like that how can you -or should you -expect help if you don't like living in Spain anymore?


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

pinkchic said:


> With respect this wasn´t a small shop it was in a large shopping centre, i have never heard of anyone telling kids to get out of shops in such a manner and if they do in the uk or anywhere else then they do not deserve to be in business, my daughter is a respectable young lady and is not one of the masses of teenagers you see hanging on street corners swigging out of a bottle of alcopops, she was with just 2 other girls not in a large "pack" The fact is the assistant thought she was being clever thinking she could not respond! which backfired.:confused2:



I would feel angry too. How ignorant..

How did they know your daughter was English? 

If she had said "watch those youngsters!" I would think that OK. But to say "Watch those English". I'm puzzled.


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## pinkchic (Jan 23, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> If people do decide to go back to the uk after their (little adventure in spain) then i think if people need a little help then why not that is your country of origin
> 
> 
> Well, you'd probably be entitled to at least a basic level of social security or income support or whatever it's called nowadays but I can't see why anyone who of their own free will has emigrated and then for whatever reason decides to return to the UK should get any additional help or subsidy.from the UK taxpayer.
> ...


Well that certainly doesn´t sound good but i wouldn´t necessarily myself think of poland as a western country not then anyway and i personally wouldn´t want to enter such a country. I think the embassy´s are pretty useless anyway when they are there to protect british subjects they jump in and out of the grey areas when it suits! 
I think your missing the point it´s not about people not liking to live in spàin but not having a choice to stay if they want to maintain a half decent life. Someone on this thread commented earlier about jobs for the british and as jobs are thin on the ground anyway in spain you would find it hard to find a job in front of a spanaird especially when they have the advantage of speaking the lingo. This does not involve me as i have my own business .


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## pinkchic (Jan 23, 2010)

NorthernLass said:


> I would feel angry too. How ignorant..
> 
> How did they know your daughter was English?
> 
> If she had said "watch those youngsters!" I would think that OK. But to say "Watch those English". I'm puzzled.


it´s becuase they were speaking in english, normally my daughter is with spanish friends who do not speak much english and find it easier to speak spanish so because she is totally fluent she is happy to do so.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

pinkchic said:


> Well that certainly doesn´t sound good but i wouldn´t necessarily myself think of poland as a western country not then anyway and i personally wouldn´t want to enter such a country. I think the embassy´s are pretty useless anyway when they are there to protect british subjects they jump in and out of the grey areas when it suits!
> I think your missing the point it´s not about people not liking to live in spàin but not having a choice to stay if they want to maintain a half decent life. Someone on this thread commented earlier about jobs for the british and as jobs are thin on the ground anyway in spain you would find it hard to find a job in front of a spanaird especially when they have the advantage of speaking the lingo. This does not involve me as i have my own business .


Poland was a bit wild then, true, but it's now part of the EU, just like Spain.
I'm not missing the point. I am insisting on my point, which is that anyone who _chooses_ to live abroad and then _for any reason _wishes to return has no right to expect support from the UK taxpayer. God knows I'm paying enough UK tax already although I've lived and worked outside the UK for years. As someone said already, you won't find much sympathy from people in the UK, unfairly, perhaps, but that's how it is.
Of course jobs are 'thin on the ground' for British immigrants to Spain. I've noticed that many would-be immigrants are looking for the kind of jobs where a) you need good Spanish and b) are semi-or unskilled or c) are in construction and allied trades where as we all know job prospects are bleak.
All the more reason for careful thought and planning before you come here.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> Poland was a bit wild then, true, but it's now part of the EU, just like Spain.
> I'm not missing the point. I am insisting on my point, which is that anyone who _chooses_ to live abroad and then _for any reason _wishes to return has no right to expect support from the UK taxpayer. God knows I'm paying enough UK tax already although I've lived and worked outside the UK for years. As someone said already, you won't find much sympathy from people in the UK, unfairly, perhaps, but that's how it is.
> Of course jobs are 'thin on the ground' for British immigrants to Spain. I've noticed that many would-be immigrants are looking for the kind of jobs where a) you need good Spanish and b) are semi-or unskilled or c) are in construction and allied trades where as we all know job prospects are bleak.
> All the more reason for careful thought and planning before you come here.



.. and its the opposite in Britain. The EOC insist that all applicants are taken equally and there must be no discrimination whatsoever. In fact employers have to employ a certain number of people from all manner of minority groups. My husband was sent a directive telling him that he should employ a foreign person over a British person should he have to choose between two equally talented people.

Rightly or wrongly, it seems to me that Britain is the only country who doesnt look after their own in a crisis

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

God, there's sooo much I want to comment on here!!
Unfortunately work and housework get in the way:juggle:
So back to that old chestnut - education

The thing about other subjects being taught in English in state schools isn't smth they're talking about. It's happening in some places already and has been in operation for years in some places. Some schools in the Comunidad de Madrid are already using this syllabus, others are not, it depends on the area. Some schools in the Basque country are teaching in Euskera, Spanish and English. I don't know if any schools are using this syllabus throughout the school as what they are doing as far as I know is introduce it year by year. The subjects that are taught in English can be almost anything except Maths, Spanish and any other languages, so you can get PE, sciences, etc in English.
The controvosy as far as I know is not so much the educational value of learning English and learning _*in*_ English, but is the way it's being implemented. Teachers are not given the right training and are pushed into giving a class they are not qualified to give and perhaps don't want to give. It might make integration of British kids into the system a bit easier though. 

Another thing I really want to point out and that I think has come up on this thread is please think about your experience and what it's based on. If you've only lived in Cadiz you can't talk about Spain. If you've only lived in Madrid you can't talk about the CDS. Housing, food, weather, attitudes, immigration, prices, hospitals, health centres you name it, it's all different. Spain is a really big country and we need to recognise that. OK some things are the same everywhere. All Spaniards take a siesta and love bull fighting, we all know that don't we???


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Unfortunately it is fairly common to find this attitude towards groups of teenagers or even younger children all over Europe. I've seen shops in the UK with notices posted to the effect that 'No unaccompanied minors allowed' or 'No more than three children at a time'.


I've seen notices like that too!

I would hate for my daughter to be spoken to, or about, like that too, but it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. Brits do get themselves into trouble, kids and adults which is even sadder, when they're abroad. It's a fact of life shop keepers do have to watch out. 
In Weston Super Mare where my parents live there is an influx of Spanish teenagers doing language courses in the summer. They are easily recognisable because they dress differently, nicer than the English kids which the English kids don't like, they are normally better looking than the English kids and they are LOUD!! Are the locals happy to see them because they add to the local economy. Are they hell. They moan about them filling up the buses, shouting out to each other, sitting on the steps, and crowding into sweet shops. Just like the Brits do here...
I don't think it's a Spanish British problem

PS. I would be happy for my daughter to give a sassy oneliner in this situation though


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> .. and its the opposite in Britain. The EOC insist that all applicants are taken equally and there must be no discrimination whatsoever. In fact employers have to employ a certain number of people from all manner of minority groups. My husband was sent a directive telling him that he should employ a foreign person over a British person should he have to choose between two equally talented people.
> 
> Rightly or wrongly, it seems to me that Britain is the only country who doesnt look after their own in a crisis
> 
> Jo xxx


I seem to remember discussing this before.  Actually,there isn't an Equal Opportunities Commission any more -it used to deal with sex discrimination cases in employment - it's functions have now been given to EHRC (Equality and Human Rights Commission) which deals with these issues and the legislation it's based on applies equally across all EU countries -that is, legislation relating to Employment Discrimination. So it doesn't apply solely to the UK.
I'd like to see that document your OH received as until July I worked in the field of European Employment legislation and I know of no such instruction up to that date so if possible could you pm it? . I do get monthly updates from the DTI -which is the body which normally deals with such issues and I've heard nothing of such a directive. EHRC has no power to issue directives anyway, it can only advise.
I have no idea how an employer would choose between two equally talented people but I know that if say a Pole wre chosen rather than me, a British citizen, without good reason -and I would have the right to see those reasons in writing -then I could sue for discrimination. The legislation applies to all nationalities, Brits too.
There is no UK rule or law which says that employers have to take on a certain number of minority groups. Some -very few -local authorities insist on the workforce reflecting accurately the suitably qualified local population when appointing workers as a condition of awarding contracts, , that's true and I'm not sure how I feel about that.
Considering the fact that sex and race discrimination is sadly still prevalent in all societies it may be a good idea?
There is a lot said about these equality laws and much of it is either genuinely misunderstood or maliciously distorted by people with an agenda -not your OH, I hasten to add!
But none of the above justifies the UK taxpayer subsidising, say, my Auntie Nellie who has lived in Canada for the past sixty years but now wants to come home before she dies.
She doesn't actually -it's the last thing she wants to do.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> ..
> 
> Rightly or wrongly, it seems to me that Britain is the only country who doesnt look after their own in a crisis
> 
> Jo xxx


On reflection, I'm not so sure about that! I read recently that one in six of UK non-pensioner households has no working -age person employed, i.e. they are in receipt of welfare benefits.
Our welfare bill is truly staggering and neither Party seems to have humane and practical proposals for dealing with this.
I can think of few European countries -Germany, France, Holland, Scandinavia perhaps -which offers such generous welfare benefits to its citizens.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Anyway, never mind all that. Let's get down to the REALLY important question which is : when will it be warm enough to swim in the pool again???
Raining again.......


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> Anyway, never mind all that. Let's get down to the REALLY important question which is : when will it be warm enough to swim in the pool again???
> Raining again.......


I wish it would hurry up! I got soaked in town earlier and my rivers threatening to flood again 

If I remember rightly, my kids were in the pool mid March - I wasnt until June !!!!!

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> It’s very hard not to feel that foreigners are being picked on
> 
> This isn’t just happening to this business, it’s happening to bars & all sorts of other businesses too. If I’m honest, there were probably too many bars in any case & the best will survive, but I’ve seen the proof that Spanish owned businesses are being treated more leniently than foreign-owned.


That's a not very nice situation at all.
I suppose the economic situation and the unemployment that has come with it has a lot to do with this.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

NorthernLass said:


> Yes, I have similar worries about my children at school. They have not been told to go home but they are still in Primary school, maybe Secondary would be more hostile -- but as a mother I can feel that there is no welcome mat for my kids here..
> 
> Initially when we came, we were treated like VIPs, as there are no English kids around. Some are still nice to us, but the majority I feel that they would sooner we weren't here. Just a feeling..and it feels uncomfortable.
> 
> ...


My situation is different, but at the same time similar.
My daughter is Spanish, she just happens to have an English mother. When she started secondary school I was very worried. She goes to a state secondary school with a high immigrant population. She is one of two or three children with one English parent. Other immigrants are Morroccans, Romanians, and a large number from South America. A couple of years previously there had been trouble in the town from gangs like the Latin Kings, so I was very worried about that. Also she was bullied to a certain extent in primary school and that was another worry. Anyway I had many a sleepless night in the summer. Well, she has never had a problem with anybody from the school from any nationality. She's called guiri by a couple of mates in a friendly way. My point is there are many foreigners in the school, but it's not an issue. Each one has to make their own way through the system with help ie extra classes if necessary, but there's no special treatment or status if you come from a different country.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

pinkchic said:


> _ . I am quite surprised at the brits and how aggressive they can be at defending the spanish, one thing you will never be spanish and the spanish will never accept you as such, just my opinion of course!!:clap2:_


_
Yes, I surprise myself at times!
But, as has been discussed before on a different thread, I don't think of myself as British first and foremost. Nor do I consider myself Spanish. I'm not very comfortable with naming as it usually brings all kinds of stereotype images and I find I genuinely don't fit either of them. It's a bit strange, but that's where I am at the moment after living abroad for more years than I lived in the UK. But I do live here and it was my choice, so I'm prepared to play it their way more than try to stick to my "roots". 
With regard to the Spanish accepting you I think firstly it depends on each individual and not the Spanish in general and secondly to be "accepted" the immigrant has to do a bit of accepting as well..._


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> My situation is different, but at the same time similar.
> My daughter is Spanish, she just happens to have an English mother. When she started secondary school I was very worried. She goes to a state secondary school with a high immigrant population. She is one of two or three children with one English parent. Other immigrants are Morroccans, Romanians, and a large number from South America. A couple of years previously there had been trouble in the town from gangs like the Latin Kings, so I was very worried about that. Also she was bullied to a certain extent in primary school and that was another worry. Anyway I had many a sleepless night in the summer. Well, she has never had a problem with anybody from the school from any nationality. She's called guiri by a couple of mates in a friendly way. My point is there are many foreigners in the school, but it's not an issue. Each one has to make their own way through the system with help ie extra classes if necessary, but there's no special treatment or status if you come from a different country.


there is a high percentage of foreigners in our area

I asked my older daughter if she had noticed any change in attitude from the Spanish kids towards her (as a foreigner) recently

she said that she has noticed a change in attitude - a bit of an anti-feeling - but _specifically not_ towards her - more towards some of the foreign kids who don't mix with the Spanish kids

so yes, there is a bit of a change, but my dd seems to be immune at the moment - but then she tends to mix with everyone, not just the brits


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, I surprise myself at times!
> But, as has been discussed before on a different thread, I don't think of myself as British first and foremost. Nor do I consider myself Spanish. I'm not very comfortable with naming as it usually brings all kinds of stereotype images and I find I genuinely don't fit either of them. It's a bit strange, but that's where I am at the moment after living abroad for more years than I lived in the UK. But I do live here and it was my choice, so I'm prepared to play it their way more than try to stick to my "roots".
> With regard to the Spanish accepting you I think firstly it depends on each individual and not the Spanish in general and secondly to be "accepted" the immigrant has to do a bit of accepting as well...


That's pretty much what my dd said

She certainly doesn't feel English & she's clearly not Spanish, although she relates better to the Spanish kids - she watches the same tele as they do & listens to the same music - she has introduced some of them to a local English language station that plays the 'expat' charts

I don't know if my kids are integrated as much as assimilated!

whereas a lot of the English kids only watch English tele so can only talk about Eastenders - the Spanish kids have no idea what they are talking about, & therefore don't make the effort to mix either!


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## pinkchic (Jan 23, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> My situation is different, but at the same time similar.
> My daughter is Spanish, she just happens to have an English mother. When she started secondary school I was very worried. She goes to a state secondary school with a high immigrant population. She is one of two or three children with one English parent. Other immigrants are Morroccans, Romanians, and a large number from South America. A couple of years previously there had been trouble in the town from gangs like the Latin Kings, so I was very worried about that. Also she was bullied to a certain extent in primary school and that was another worry. Anyway I had many a sleepless night in the summer. Well, she has never had a problem with anybody from the school from any nationality. She's called guiri by a couple of mates in a friendly way. My point is there are many foreigners in the school, but it's not an issue. Each one has to make their own way through the system with help ie extra classes if necessary, but there's no special treatment or status if you come from a different country.


I´m glad i´ve raised this point- as at first people were living in the bubble saying this doesn´t happen, my daughter is also called "there favourite guiri" by her friends which she doesn´t seem to mind but as an adult i find it quite offensive as though she is some kind of pet! In all fairness though all my children as far as i know are happy at school now! and can give as good as they get, which happens in all races.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

pinkchic said:


> I´m glad i´ve raised this point- as at first people were living in the bubble saying this doesn´t happen, my daughter is also called "there favourite guiri" by her friends which she doesn´t seem to mind but as an adult i find it quite offensive as though she is some kind of pet! In all fairness though all my children as far as i know are happy at school now! and can give as good as they get, which happens in all races.


Yes, kids are tough - fortunately. They need to be. What offends one person is like water off a duck's back to another, I've noticed that too. It's the _intention _that matters, as I see it. My Czech friend was often amazed at the way we Brits 'insult' each other in a friendly way, e.g. when a visitor from the UK warmly greeted me as 'You old tart!!'. Czechs would _never_ do that, even -or especially -to a close friend.
As for Wesky's point: I don't feel British either, I feel more like a 'European'. Between us my OH and I have lived in or spent significant amounts of time in several European countries and we like to think we can view the good and bad aspects of each objectively, although we could be fooling ourselves, I'll admit.
I find myself currently repelled by the sheer yobbishness and vulgarity of the UK. God knows I'm no prude, far from it, but our national culture seems to have been debased to the lowest common denominator. I've spent a lot of time in airports over the past five years and I've often been ashamed of the British people about to be unleashed on the innocent citizens of Prague, Dublin, Barcelona, Krakow etc.
A Canadian friend remarked on the casual and very commonplace use of the f and even c words in the street in all kinds of speech and from all classes of people.
In contrast I have so far had no experiences of this type of behaviour in Spain -only from Brits and thankfully not round here. (There seems to be a wealthier, more refined criminal type around here)
My experience of Spaniards has been 100% positive: helpful, courteous, sociable, warm and very dignified in their public demeanour.
We could learn from them, imo.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Gus;
When you say “This is payable as soon as you register regardless of any income.”
I assume you mean register as “autonomo”?

Sorry about the delay, we've had guests and I haven't been able to get on much.
Yes, as soon as you register as 'autonomo' you pay. I think that chris has covered the other points. As regards to olives, yes for the first 6 years I was paid in cash and took some oil for our use and the neighbours but now the oil mill I use only pays by cheque and issues an invoice. You can still find ones paying cash though. Yes, you would have to add this to any income you have if it was a cheque. 
A point worth taking in to account, which doesn't seem to have been mentioned, is that although both self-employed & employed pay tax all the year, 85% of all Spanish tax-payers reclaim the tax they have paid at the year end . ( Normally repaid within 6 weeks.) 

Regarding working from home, most of my neighbours ( Who are all Spanish, I live in a totally Spanish area. ) are autonomo and their reg. address is their home. My immediate neighbour's son runs a steel fabrication business from home and his father a vegetable business . It would not be allowed on an urbanisation, or on a housing estate in the UK, but we are in the countryside. 

I live in a region that is the 4th or 5th poorest in Spain. Where the average wage is 50% of what the national average wage is and jobs now are even harder to come by. I have worked both legally and illegaly and ceased in may 2008. I could see the crash coming and took the view that a Spaniard needed it more than I did. I occasionally help the lad next door, not because I want to but because he insists! 

Car tax is set by the local councils and varies. The cost of living has gone up here especially fuel, butane cyls., food etc; although It is still, imo, cheaper than the UK. I couldn't do, in the Uk, what I'm doing here. Nothing. The council tax on its own would put paid to that. All I pay here is 15,94euros a year.
I have never had a problem with resentment from the Spanish, in fact the opposite. We have been made more than welcome and during one conversation when someone was moaning about the foreigners and I joined in and said "well I'm a foreigner" I was told by my neighbour " no your not your Spanish, now sit down and shut up" 

When I was working I was often asked why, by the Spanish, as they thought we all went to the beach or out drinking. If I was making the decision now whether to move from the UK to Spain, it would be no, purely on the exchange rate, but it's everyones choice to make up there own mind.


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, kids are tough - fortunately. They need to be. What offends one person is like water off a duck's back to another, I've noticed that too. It's the _intention _that matters, as I see it. My Czech friend was often amazed at the way we Brits 'insult' each other in a friendly way, e.g. when a visitor from the UK warmly greeted me as 'You old tart!!'. Czechs would _never_ do that, even -or especially -to a close friend.
> As for Wesky's point: I don't feel British either, I feel more like a 'European'. Between us my OH and I have lived in or spent significant amounts of time in several European countries and we like to think we can view the good and bad aspects of each objectively, although we could be fooling ourselves, I'll admit.
> I find myself currently repelled by the sheer yobbishness and vulgarity of the UK. God knows I'm no prude, far from it, but our national culture seems to have been debased to the lowest common denominator. I've spent a lot of time in airports over the past five years and I've often been ashamed of the British people about to be unleashed on the innocent citizens of Prague, Dublin, Barcelona, Krakow etc.
> A Canadian friend remarked on the casual and very commonplace use of the f and even c words in the street in all kinds of speech and from all classes of people.
> ...


Cultural differences are intriging !!

It's interesting that the spanish have a similar banter as us British...they swear alot and very casually (maybe even more than the Brits). Both languages can use swearing playfully and depending on the tone, it can be taken as rude and offensive. 

I personally don't swear and most of those I know don't either so it all depends on who you know and socialise with.

I couldn't say that I find all spaniards 100% positve - where do you shop?? ha ha - have to say some are rude and unhelpful. You ask for something in a shop and its sometimes just "NO". That's it...what about "No but I have these". Again cultural differences you just have to accept.


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> there is a high percentage of foreigners in our area
> 
> I asked my older daughter if she had noticed any change in attitude from the Spanish kids towards her (as a foreigner) recently
> 
> ...


I am glad that your daughter isn't affected by this as she calls it an anti-feeling.

It's quite alarming..I feel for those kids who came to Spain maybe too old and now are suffering as a result. 

So many British families like us came to Spain, hoping for a great life for our kids and so many end up being excluded or bullied because of being British (or other).

Do you think their parents are aware of this anti-feeling too? I wonder....


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

NorthernLass said:


> Cultural differences are intriging !!
> 
> It's interesting that the spanish have a similar banter as us British...they swear alot and very casually (maybe even more than the Brits).


My spanish family (and large and varied it is) appear to me to swear in the extreme but it seems part of normal speech to them. 'Joder' and '****' s drop in to young ladies banter and hardly get noticed. I guess it is a matter of what makes a word a swear word? 

What always gets me is that if I want to pay at a bar I try and attract the waiters attention before asking to pay. My spanish wife simply shouts "when your ready" then looks at me and says "we haven't got all day". 

Maybe after so many barmen helping me with my Spanish in Madrid over the years I feel they deserve more respect  

ps. What a thread this is turning out to be


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Around here the Spaniards use their c word the same as the UK , for greetings & abuse. I was quite surprised at the use of it at first by both men and women until I found out that , depending on the context defined what it meant. Tacked on the end of a rebuke the c word translates as the English 'for f sake'. The use of the Spanish term for the 'f' word is daily usage.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Strangely in my Asturian pueblo I notice they swear much less. Of course we are so much more refined up here in the north than in the s, s and s regions

|
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OK only joking :bolt:


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

nigele2 said:


> Strangely in my Asturian pueblo I notice they swear much less. Of course we are so much more refined up here in the north than in the s, s and s regions
> 
> |
> |
> ...


Ha ha. Looking at previous posts about swearing and before I got to this one I was thinking of Mario a guy I know from Asturias whose way of greeting you is "¡Coño Jane, cuanto tiempo!" And that's just saying hello!! Not very refined I would say!
He is a university professor.
It seems to me that swearing is not the same around here as it is over there


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

(There seems to be a wealthier, more refined criminal type around here)

They're probably swearing in Russian though!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

pinkchic said:


> I´m glad i´ve raised this point- as at first people were living in the bubble saying this doesn´t happen, my daughter is also called "there favourite guiri" by her friends which she doesn´t seem to mind but as an adult i find it quite offensive as though she is some kind of pet! In all fairness though all my children as far as i know are happy at school now! and can give as good as they get, which happens in all races.


Uhmmm, actually what I said was
*She's called guiri by a couple of mates in a friendly way.*
Neither she nor I see it as a problem. If it were, she would tell her friends. It's like in Colombia for example they call you _*flaca*_, here they can call you *rubio*, but it's not meant as an insult. However if you take it like that and they really are your friends I would presume that by talking to them you'd solve the problem, wouldn't you???
I'm not saying that racism isn't an issue, or bullying, doesn't happen. There have been some terrible cases in the news. But as far as my experience goes in a large town outside of Madrid it's not happening.
I'm definitely NOT saying that no wrong happens in Spain; there's a lot that could be improved. BUT IMO for every down fall that Spain has, or rather MY life in Spain, it would be a lot worse living in the UK. And I have been back to the UK every year for 13 years. (Admitedly to a grot spot, but there seem to be so many of them)


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> (There seems to be a wealthier, more refined criminal type around here)
> 
> They're probably swearing in Russian though!


Haha

I think the criminals round here are just plain criminals and probably swear in any number of languages.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hmm. Interesting about my perceived absence of swearing. Maybe I just haven't noticed. Or maybe age and gender protect me from the worst?
I f and blind a lot myself, shamefully -but generally only indoors....I think my son was put off using such language because he heard it so often from maternal lips...I guess my colloquial Spanish isn't good enough to pick up some of the more frequent vulgarities -doubtless I'll learn them
Up to now I have met with zero instances of discourtesy from Spanish people -that is, in fourteen months of living here. Maybe, like being aware of the cursing, I've got that to come.
I can curse fluently in several European languages but for some reason I've always felt it inappropriate to use the words so whenever I'm annoyed about something in France, CR, etc etc I tend to mutter curses in good old Anglo-Saxon.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> (There seems to be a wealthier, more refined criminal type around here)
> 
> They're probably swearing in Russian though!


I'd understand that!!


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Hmm. Interesting about my perceived absence of swearing. Maybe I just haven't noticed. Or maybe age and gender protect me from the worst?
> I f and blind a lot myself, shamefully -but generally only indoors....I think my son was put off using such language because he heard it so often from maternal lips...I guess my colloquial Spanish isn't good enough to pick up some of the more frequent vulgarities -doubtless I'll learn them
> Up to now I have met with zero instances of discourtesy from Spanish people -that is, in fourteen months of living here. Maybe, like being aware of the cursing, I've got that to come.
> I can curse fluently in several European languages but for some reason I've always felt it inappropriate to use the words so whenever I'm annoyed about something in France, CR, etc etc I tend to mutter curses in good old Anglo-Saxon.


I think it's the first thing that kids learn in any language!! Mine don't swear in English, which is strange cos they've certainly heard the odd palabrota escaping my lips now and then  but picked up the Spanish ones very quickly, although of course I tell them to avoid it, but it's all over the playground - and even the teachers tend to swear from time to time in class. I don't know whether they put any degree of seriousness on it as we would have done back in the UK - and I suppose if it's within a certain context it "appears" milder, but I still don't necessarily enjoy hearing it from the little "angels". Hmmmm....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Tallulah said:


> I think it's the first thing that kids learn in any language!! Mine don't swear in English, which is strange cos they've certainly heard the odd palabrota escaping my lips now and then  but picked up the Spanish ones very quickly, although of course I tell them to avoid it, but it's all over the playground - and even the teachers tend to swear from time to time in class. I don't know whether they put any degree of seriousness on it as we would have done back in the UK - and I suppose if it's within a certain context it "appears" milder, but I still don't necessarily enjoy hearing it from the little "angels". Hmmmm....


I once had to deal with casework defending a teacher who, having had a bad day, had said in front of her class that she was 'pissed off' with their attitude. It was agreed that she should write a letter of apology for her 'vulgar and coarse' language, a copy of which would be given to each pupil to hand to their parents. To my delight the pupils refused to take the letter, saying it was a lot of fuss about nothing.
Seems the Spanish have a more sensible approach to human frailities.


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## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I once had to deal with casework defending a teacher who, having had a bad day, had said in front of her class that she was 'pissed off' with their attitude. It was agreed that she should write a letter of apology for her 'vulgar and coarse' language, a copy of which would be given to each pupil to hand to their parents. To my delight the pupils refused to take the letter, saying it was a lot of fuss about nothing.
> Seems the Spanish have a more sensible approach to human frailities.



Not long after arriving in Spain, I was teaching English to adult beginners and I had to explain the phrase, “Oh dear”, which cropped up in a text. One student casually asked if it was like saying coño when you cut your finger? :lol: Being so new to Spain, I had no idea what it meant. :noidea:So a female student (whose husband was Scottish), kindly gave the direct translation, much to my embarrassment.  But no one thought it embarrassing or funny to use “coño”. 

And the reverse situation happened in another class a few months later - a student said his Irish friend was always saying FFS and other such choice phrases and asked me to explain the meaning.!  But the most depressing example was while teaching an English class of 12 year olds, One girl, who had previously attended an international school nearby (on CDS of course) used WTF in a dialogue she was asked to write, her partner in the pairwork read out the dialogue totally unaware of how it sounded :lalala:- I was in shock but everyone else was totally oblivious to how strong the language she used was.

Caz.I


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

gus-lopez said:


> Gus;
> When you say “This is payable as soon as you register regardless of any income.”
> I assume you mean register as “autonomo”?
> 
> ...


Thanx Gus, no probs on the delay as I've had a lot of reading to do! :ranger:
Well a little cash wouldn't hurt, and as you said before with current prices it wouldn't be much at all. I put together a ((very)) basic spreadsheet so I could work out on the fly how much I could make from a bit of oil production, If I'm rights your figures worked out at about 1.43e L, no way near the 3 or 5, oh that must be 3.5e yes? so I'm assuming this was a good while back when the price was that much?
Seems far more olive oil from Italy here in the shops here so I'm guessing the competition and the low pound is keeping the price down you can get in Spain!

Tax;
Could you explain or post any links I can read up on plz?
Not sure what you mean by 85% of Spanish tax-payers reclaim the tax they have paid!
Is this off limits to brits or is this simply a lots of Spaniards are earning below a set threshold?
How much is the average car tax and what do they charge for a service and MOT?
If I do come over I might be bringing a car, I'm sure that will cost me to import!!

Many thanx BTW for all the info on autonomo and costs etc etc..!
The council tax sounds cheap, this should help offset some other costs :eyebrows: If you return back to autonomo status will council tax go up?

Good to know you've been made welcome, your location sounds similar to what I would like, out in the sticks but not too far from noise if you have a need for it!
When I visited a few years back I was looking at places in Sax, Tibi, Castalla, Biar, Ibi and Onil. That's where I might consider again!

Nice story Re.


> sit down and shut up


 and how they initially thought all brits head for the beach and go on the piss! I myself didn't visit the beach once in all my visits, that might help prove I was serious in looking for a quite little spot in the sticks...can you hear the tumble weed rolling by lol

Yeah the exchange rats is pants It needs to come up a bit for me to be able to make the move + house prices here are on a slow rise-ish. One thing that would help if prices there are still moving down for a while in Spain (sorry!). I did read that it could go either way but also the Spanish banks are holding housing stock they will have to revalue down!! In the end if it costs me more so be it, I'll have less money but if you want something enough then that shouldn't stop me!
Anyways...I'm still researching and still don't know what I'm going to do, that will take a couple of months of careful thought at least and a visit in maybe March or April to have a buzz round and look at a few places that must have plenty of olive trees of course 
Cheers...


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Muddy said:


> Thanx Gus, no probs on the delay as I've had a lot of reading to do! :ranger:
> Well a little cash wouldn't hurt, and as you said before with current prices it wouldn't be much at all. I put together a ((very)) basic spreadsheet so I could work out on the fly how much I could make from a bit of oil production, If I'm rights your figures worked out at about 1.43e L, no way near the 3 or 5, oh that must be 3.5e yes? so I'm assuming this was a good while back when the price was that much?
> Seems far more olive oil from Italy here in the shops here so I'm guessing the competition and the low pound is keeping the price down you can get in Spain!
> 
> ...


Re: Olives, what I failed to mention is they deduct 20% for production costs so the calculation would be 1000 trees x 40kg.= 40,000kgs x 21% ( oil yield )= 8400kgs. x 80% ( 100- 20, their cut for production )= 6720kgs or 6720 litres of oil. = 1,7857euros / litre. What you have to remember and the Spaniards will be the first to tell you is the almazaras ( oil mills ) are all crooks, just that some are less than others. ):
The 1st. year we did it the price was 4,30e.  Another thing is if you decide to take it all as oil they'll then charge you 50c per 5 litre container!!! or equivalent for 25 l container .

Yes, here they use a comma in place of the point used in the UK. 3,5 =3.5 I have got into the habit now.

Olive oil from Italy; Yes but the vast majority isn't Italian they import from Spain, process it & it's sold as Italian. ( All legal , last point of process/ production = country of origin) Until the 'crash' in oct. 2008 olive oil was shipped to Italy in ships and when I asked why the price was so low in Dec. I was told, " now we are only sending it in artic. lorries".

When I said 'Spanish tax payers', I meant anyone who pays tax in Spain. Doesn't matter if you're a foreigner. If you are employed or self employed you will pay tax; at the end of the year , as Stravinsky has mentioned the allowances here are far greater than the UK, approx. 85% of all taxpayers reclaim the tax that they have paid. Yes, where I live the average wage is approx. 50% of the Spanish national average, but even if you earned the nat. average ( about 16000e, I believe you would still pay less, if any,than in the UK.

Council tax (IBI = Impuestos Bienes Imuebles, or colloquially as 'La contribuición' )
No this purely applies to the house based on its 'valor catastral'. In my case, the house is 100+years old and has a notional value of 2368,72euros & the tax is 0,675 of 1 % = 15,99. When we first bought the value was 2838e with a tax of 0,75 of 1 % but when they revalued in 2005 the base value went down & the % has been brought down by the local council each year ,until last year. Probably start going up soon due to the 'crisis' !


Car tax varies, its based on HP/KW and is set by individual councils, so the cost here in Lorca is different to Águilas or Mazzaron. My Ford tourneo connect was 90kw & tax was 79e. VW LT"( van ( %· kw ) 67e. Peogeot 406 car, 140 e.
The other thing here is you get a 10% discount if you pay in the 'voluntary' period, which is the 1st 6 weeks from March 1st. Don't know if this applies everywhere. 

Re: Bringing a car, if you're going to bring one go for a lhd. Yes you can re-register rhd cars but NOT vans or commercial vehicles.Spanish law expressly forbids it BUT I have seen re-registered rhd vans, mostly round the Alicante area.God knows what would happen in the event of a serious accident because a sharp lawyer would pick it up straightaway and they would be declared unregistered.
Just a thought while we are on vehicles; Any vehicle which is derived from a van, which in the UK is classed as a car like Ford tourneo connect, Renault berlingo,kangoo,Mercede vito etc; here in Spain is a van or commercial vehicle and as such is due an itv ( mot ) after only 2 years from new. Also the insurance will be based on it being for commercial use. Possibly not with Linea Directa but all Spanish cos. will treat it as a comm. vehicle. I got caught out by this. If you need a van type vehicle, with seats, buy an MPV and take seats out when you want. My Kia Carnival ( sedona ) is 220 e a year cheaper to insure than the old tourneo connect.
MOT ( ITV ) if you take it yourself about 43euros. ( they are not done in garages here it's all government testing stations.) Servicing, I can at the mo. only comment on Fords where an interim service was about 80 / 90 e and a major 180E.

Personally I think further house price falls are guaranteed. Their is a report , today, from the boss of the Spanish mortgage lenders association where he says that the banks are holding over-valued houses and refusing to take developers land banks as collateral as they have no value. He actually said that in his opinion the Spanish housing market was finished!!!!
I'd rent for a while  Hope all this helps. A book I would recommend is ' You & the law in Spain' by David Searle. Covers everything, I mean everything, Pub. by Santana books, updated May in every year. You can find it on the internet, it's about 20 euros here and it's a good read.


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## Muddy (Jan 14, 2010)

gus-lopez said:


> Re: Olives, what I failed to mention is they deduct 20% for production costs


That's a shed-load of details, most appreciated :thumb:
So 1,78e is the going rate in your area at the mo. I've updated my spreadsheet lol
I guess the Mills are going try their best to pay as little as possible.
I would hope the price stays pretty stable so by the time you deliver the oil they can't offer you peanuts!
That's bloody stupid, shipping by road!!! Why the heck did they start doing it this way, perhaps a shipping company went bust, or inforced to keep all the HGV drivers in work due to the reccession! Very interesting info it must be said as if this changes back to shipping then prices should go back up!
I think this is mad, how can it be good to have all the extra heavy HGV's driving across Spain all the way to Italy! :confused2:

Yeah if the Spanish gvmt is getting less and less tax over the years I think you're correct and it most likely up the rate. How often do they review it?
Looks like from what you say the review was done in 2005 and then the local councils increase or decrease in steps perhaps!

Car; Yeah I would be bring my old Ford lol It has No AC tho so that might be hard to live with but she's my baby lol 
Might get myself a motorbike to run about on for local short trips, but I know how hot it gets in a car without AC there :flame: something to worry about l8er..

House prices; Yeah it seems likely they will go down for a while!
Is this very dependant on area like in the UK E.g Scotland seem to have a slower decline and not as deep as S England cos of silly prices in places!
I'll keep an eye out for them books + big thanx again for all the advice. I may well decide to rent for a while if I can find something very close to what I would in the end like to end up with. Will have to way up on cost of renting V how much prices might shift down.
Cheers :clap2:


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

No , they only went to road transport because the Italians cut their orders from 000's of tonnes to small amounts. I've no idea how often they re-value but someone else may be able to help. Depends where you are re: a/Con, up in the hills where their is less humidity would probably be passable but where I am it is the humidity that I don't like. You'd be better off buying the bike in the UK as well. 1/2 the price of over here, better condition and less miles.You would still save a fortune even paying to re-register.


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