# Looking for some advice on renouncing US citizenship



## Tiwaz (11 mo ago)

Hi,

I've been reading this forum and finally thought I would ask some questions of my own.

I left the US a bit over 12 years ago. I have not filed since. 

Now I live in Nicaragua and have gotten my citizenship in 2013. When I did, the head of immigration told me that I must write a letter saying that I want to renounce US citizenship, that I know it's permanent, that it is of my own free will and why I want to do it. At this point I was married and have a family here and that was why I decided to give up my citizenship. That was why I made the decision.

Now, I guess I have not actually given up my citizenship. I had not gone to the Embassy and done that. I did write a letter that was publicly filed and remains in the public registry. 

I do not have any assets in the US or anywhere for that matter. I also have no income and have not these years. I have no bank accounts anywhere. 

In as much as I thought I was actually free of the US entirely, I would now like to be that way. I am happy to pay the $2300 fee if that's what I have to do. 

Here are my questions...

Is it possible to get an appointment at the US Embassy in Nicaragua to renounce? 

If I wanted to move to Mexico, they will require that I show an income. I can arrange to do that. But since they have a treaty with the United States, is it possible that I would end up not being able to open an account in Mexico or being sent to the United States for back taxes etc. 

Any thoughts would be most appreciated.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

See my answer to your other question. Were you born in the US? if not, your life is easy. If yes, you could renounce or just try your luck with Mexican banks. I don't know much about this but I get the sense that Mexico isn't particularly strict about FATCA enforcement. As for the IRS, forget about them, they are toothless and not interested in small fish like you and I.

If you want to renounce in Nicaragua, contact the US embassy or consulate and ask. They won't send in the black helicopters.


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## 255 (Sep 8, 2018)

@Tiwaz -- In answer to your questions:

"Is it possible to get an appointment at the US Embassy in Nicaragua to renounce?" Yes: https://evisaforms.state.gov/acs/default.asp?postcode=MNG&appcode=1 .

"If I wanted to move to Mexico, they will require that I show an income. I can arrange to do that. But since they have a treaty with the United States, is it possible that I would end up not being able to open an account in Mexico or being sent to the United States for back taxes etc." No, You'd be an immigrant from Nicaragua, the U.S. would not be an issue. Of course, the U.S. could request extradition, if you have a warrant for a serious crime, but barring that, I think you're safe. https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume 1207/volume-1207-I-19462-English.pdf Here is an article for opening a bank account in Mexico (pretty standard fare How to Open a Bank Account in Mexico - Expats In Mexico . Cheers, 255


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

So here's what I'd recommend, if the OP were born in the US...

First, move to Mexico as a Nicaraguan citizen. If asked about US citizenship, you can quite honestly say that you relinquished when you became Nicaraguan. (You did do this so you are not telling a lie. The only problem is the US doesn't know about or recognize this fact.)

Second, attempt to open a bank account in Mexico. Do not claim to have US citizenship. If the bank sees the US birthplace on a Nicaraguan passport, say "I relinquished my US citizenship when I naturalized." If the bank accepts that explanation, great, you are done, no FATCA concerns. If the bank does not accept that explanation, then you have three options:

1. Try another bank.

2. Provide your SSN and allow the bank to subject your account to FATCA reporting as if you were a US citizen. This won't cause you any problems. The only potential issue here is if the bank is reluctant to offer certain investment services to US persons (this seems to vary by country, it happens in Europe, but not in Canada).

3. Go to a US consulate and spend $2350 to either renounce or document past relinquishment. The former is a simpler process, the latter has the small advantage of back-dating your loss of US nationality, but you need to prove that you never "used" your US citizenship after that point in time - no filing US taxes, voting, or travel with a US passport.

In no case would I recommend that you file US tax returns. It's not necessary. If you want to document past relinquishment rather than renounce, you definitely don't want to file for any year after you became a Nicaraguan citizen.


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## Tiwaz (11 mo ago)

Nononymous said:


> See my answer to your other question. Were you born in the US? if not, your life is easy. If yes, you could renounce or just try your luck with Mexican banks. I don't know much about this but I get the sense that Mexico isn't particularly strict about FATCA enforcement. As for the IRS, forget about them, they are toothless and not interested in small fish like you and I.
> 
> If you want to renounce in Nicaragua, contact the US embassy or consulate and ask. They won't send in the black helicopters.


Yes, I was born in the US. 

Nicaragua requires that I give them my Social Security number or proof that I have terminated my citizenship. The law requires that they treat me with all rights and privileges of a Nicaraguan citizen. That means they can't ask me for a Social Security number. But they do. I even called the head of immigration for the entire country and put him on the phone to the attorney of the bank. The head of immigration told him that I am a full Nicaraguan citizen and he can't ask me that. So the bank said that they have the right to cancel it a client for any reason and I am severely canceled.

They are going to enforce the FATCA one way or the other here. And it appears the same in Mexico. Which is fine, I don't mind paying to get this done and over with.


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## Tiwaz (11 mo ago)

255 said:


> @Tiwaz -- In answer to your questions:
> 
> "Is it possible to get an appointment at the US Embassy in Nicaragua to renounce?" Yes: https://evisaforms.state.gov/acs/default.asp?postcode=MNG&appcode=1 .
> 
> "If I wanted to move to Mexico, they will require that I show an income. I can arrange to do that. But since they have a treaty with the United States, is it possible that I would end up not being able to open an account in Mexico or being sent to the United States for back taxes etc." No, You'd be an immigrant from Nicaragua, the U.S. would not be an issue. Of course, the U.S. could request extradition, if you have a warrant for a serious crime, but barring that, I think you're safe. https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume 1207/volume-1207-I-19462-English.pdf Here is an article for opening a bank account in Mexico (pretty standard fare How to Open a Bank Account in Mexico - Expats In Mexico . Cheers, 255


Thank you for those links. I will dig in to those.

As two serious crimes outside of the IRS, there are none. However, my almost common-law wife got involved with some sovereign citizen type stuff before we left the US. I had only filed taxes once in my life. I'm not sure if she filed anything in my name as well. She might have. Some zeroed out returns or something. We were selling our house and the IRS started poking around wanting to an examination. But everything sold and we left. The woman I was with lasted a year or so maybe less and then decided she couldn't take living outside of the US so she went back. I'm sure she claimed that she was tricked into these things. That's what her daughter said she was going to do as a way of threatening me to try and get me to pay.

Supposedly , I owed them after they calculated everything and fines and all kinds of things somewhere between a half a million and two million dollars. Nobody would ever tell me. I never heard directly from the IRS and never have to this day.

I have never gone back to the US and don't believe I traveled on my US passport after I became a Nicaraguan citizen in 2013.

Is your opinion still the same?


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## Tiwaz (11 mo ago)

Nononymous said:


> So here's what I'd recommend, if the OP were born in the US...
> 
> T - Hi Nononymous - these are really great answers. Please see my comments in line below
> 
> ...


I'm not sure how would I have written above will look. It's the first time I've tried responding in line to make it easier to understand. Hopefully it works well for everybody. I put my comments above after yours and prefaced mine with a "T - "

It looks like you have to expand the above. It's collapsed. If you expand that you will see my responses.


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## 255 (Sep 8, 2018)

@Tiwaz -- Your question: "Is your opinion still the same?" Fortunately, yes, however if I was in your shoes, I would complete your relinquishment with the U.S., to make sure you have a clean cut. @Nononymous' option 3. 

The normal statute of limitations for the IRS to file criminal charges is 6 years and the maximum the IRS can pursue collection actions is 10 years. You've been gone for 12 years! Of course, statute of limitations goes out the window for fraud.

The IRS has been severely under staffed for years and if you're not on their radar -- stay off of it. I suppose they could have filed an enforcement action years ago and may have established a lien against you. You can do an anonymous search through various vendors online. Public Lien Records - Search for Tax and Property Liens Online is one (I've never used them.) Might be worth piece of mind.

If you have no easily "gettable" assets or income in the U.S., the IRS would have to see very large numbers to make any action worthwhile. Unless they see assets, they can confiscate, they won't take action. Good luck! Cheers, 255


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

So there's quite a lot to unpack in your messages there. I'll try to do my best.

There are some grey areas around loss of US nationality. Again, if you honestly intended to give up US citizenship when you naturalized in Nicaragua, in 2013, then yes, you are no longer a US citizen. But then it gets sort of weird, both in terms of the US and other countries.

First, the US doesn't recognize this fact until you inform them. Documenting your relinquishment will cost you $2350, and it's a slightly more cumbersome process than renouncing. The advantage, again, is that your relinquishment would be back-dated to 2013. (Renunciation is simpler. It is one of the ways in which you renounce citizenship, in addition to performing various other acts. It would not be back-dated but in your case it probably doesn't matter.) I don't know how hard it is to document relinquishment, versus simply renouncing. You could discuss this with the consulate. The price tag is the same and the dates don't really matter since you're well out of the US tax system anyway, so I would probably just renounce to get it over with more quickly.

Second, other countries have different interpretations of this. Plenty of places will "expect" that you give up your US citizenship during the naturalization process, but they won't require proof. What that really means is they no longer recognize your US citizenship, so you would not be entitled to consular protection. I don't know of many countries that demand proof. Germany is one: unless granted an exception, the final step in applying for German citizenship is to renounce at a US consulate then bring in the receipt; this leaves one technically stateless for a short period of time before the new citizenship is granted. Nicaragua obviously did not require any proof that the US recognizes your loss of citizenship.

With regards to banking, my advice still applies. If you don't have a CLN, you will need to argue with the bank that you are no longer a US citizen. If they don't believe you then they may require an SSN or refuse to open an account for you. If you want to guarantee access to banks, spend the money to document your relinquishment (or simply renounce if that's easier) and you will have the piece of paper you need. Ultimately a CLN is your best defense against FATCA reporting.

As far as the IRS is concerned, stay off the radar. You can renounce/relinquish without filing any US tax returns. Just forget about it.


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## Tiwaz (11 mo ago)

255 said:


> @Tiwaz -- Your question: "Is your opinion still the same?" Fortunately, yes, however if I was in your shoes, I would complete your relinquishment with the U.S., to make sure you have a clean cut. @Nononymous' option 3.
> 
> The normal statute of limitations for the IRS to file criminal charges is 6 years and the maximum the IRS can pursue collection actions is 10 years. You've been gone for 12 years! Of course, statute of limitations goes out the window for fraud.
> 
> ...


This is really helpful. Thank you. 

I'm glad your opinion is the same. 

I'm nearly certain they would have gotten a lien. And if the woman I was with is working to pay it off, then surely she would have filed for a woman taken advantage of by a man. It is not the case, but they threatened they would do that. Frankly if they could and it helped them, I'm fine with it. As long as it didn't create some kind of a criminal action against me.

Could they have filed a criminal action that it's just been sitting around all this time? Maybe failure to file or something like that?

And if it was filed does the statue of limitation begin running once it's filed? I have never received anything other than a summons to let them search through paperwork before I left. But we never had an appointment or anything they just would show up and try to get us to talk to them and I had always refused. 

There are no assets whatsoever. No property, no cash, nothing in my name. I own nothing in the United States and precious little anywhere else. 

I was on the radar before I left. And when my ex went back, they would've had to have had lengthy conversations to arrange whatever she arranged with them. I'm sure she tried to throw me under the bus. Would any of that have any ramifications to today for me? 

Since there is no property, I'm not sure how they could have a property lien. Could they put a lien against my name or something? If they can, I'm sure they would have done so. But I have no intention of ever going back or owning anything there. So let's say I do a search at the link you gave me above, and let's say there is a lien. Could that hurt me in Mexico if I begin receiving money there? By the time I get there I will have hopefully completed the process of confirming my relinquishing of my citizenship.


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## Tiwaz (11 mo ago)

Nononymous said:


> So there's quite a lot to unpack in your messages there. I'll try to do my best.
> 
> There are some grey areas around loss of US nationality. Again, if you honestly intended to give up US citizenship when you naturalized in Nicaragua, in 2013, then yes, you are no longer a US citizen. But then it gets sort of weird, both in terms of the US and other countries.
> 
> ...


I'm telling you, this is some of the most powerful advice I have heard that I am getting here in this forum. Thank you. 

This is the same kind of thing I heard long ago. I just kept my head down because I couldn't quite believe it. But I didn't do anything that I would regret in terms of contacting them, pay anything, file anything etc.

How would I go about this? Make an appointment, go in to see them and discuss the difference between relinquishing and renouncing?


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

Tiwaz said:


> How would I go about this? Make an appointment, go in to see them and discuss the difference between relinquishing and renouncing?


Call them up or send them an e-mail to make an appointment. They'll send you the appropriate paperwork to complete beforehand. Be prepared to wait. No idea what's open or not due to the pandemic, and in some countries there's quite a backlog. In Canada we've had waiting lists up to two years.


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## 255 (Sep 8, 2018)

@Tiwaz -- There are a lot of "what ifs" in your last post. Your questions:

"Could they have filed a criminal action that it's just been sitting around all this time? Maybe failure to file or something like that?" Yes, if a criminal complaint has been filed -- the various statute of limitations no longer apply. They are prevented filing charges after the statute of limitations has passed. Another website to check: Free Background Check Online | Run a Fast Criminal Check . Again like the last one, I have no experience with this firm -- they were just at the top of an internet search.

"And if it was filed does the statue of limitation begin running once it's filed?" Again, if the action was filed before the statute of limitation runs out, the action will take it's course, whether they tried to contact you in Nicaragua. They only have to send notice to your last known address on file.

"Could they put a lien against my name or something?" Yes, they can put a judgement lien against you personally (versus a property lien against a house/car etc.) This would normally require a judges approval, but if they went to court and you were absent, they would routinely "win" a judgement against you.

"Could that hurt me in Mexico if I begin receiving money there?" Again, you're a Nicaraguan citizen doing business in Mexico -- you won't know until you get there. Just take @Nononymous' suggestions concerning banking.

It's been over a decade since you left the U.S. In that time, most databases have been computerized. I've read multiple cases where old charges, just disappeared, through either normal house cleaning of records, unknown new laws or they just got lost in the transition. I still don't think you should have a problem, but it is clearly on your mind. An option would be to hire an attorney to do criminal and judgement searches to convince yourself, you're in the clear. This shouldn't cost much. Cheers, 255


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## Tiwaz (11 mo ago)

255 said:


> @Tiwaz -- There are a lot of "what ifs" in your last post. Your questions:
> 
> "Could they have filed a criminal action that it's just been sitting around all this time? Maybe failure to file or something like that?" Yes, if a criminal complaint has been filed -- the various statute of limitations no longer apply. They are prevented filing charges after the statute of limitations has passed. Another website to check: Free Background Check Online | Run a Fast Criminal Check . Again like the last one, I have no experience with this firm -- they were just at the top of an internet search.
> 
> ...


Hi 255,

The background check at the link above is not free. And I don't have a problem paying the small fee, but they hook you into a monthly recurring charge that you can only get out of by calling them.

Do you or anyone have a recommendation for an attorney that will run this for a reasonable charge and send it to me via email?

The reason I have been hesitant all these years to do anything is worried that if there is something, and my ex threatened to do all she could to make sure there is something, I didn't want to waive a red flag in front of the bull.

I suspect there are liens at the bare minimum. This would only be a tax issue. No other kinds of issues are present in my life.

Let's say there are liens or even something worse. Am I still safe to go and terminate my citizenship at the embassy?

And if there is something, then it will never go away on its own regardless of how many years? Maybe that wouldn't really matter.

And as long as it wouldn't cause me any problem to go to the embassy, I can't imagine that it would not be smart to terminate my citizenship one way or the other and get the paper to show it. Like you both said, it ends the FATCA problem. Even if I have something from the past, could I still go to the Embassy without any problems?


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## 255 (Sep 8, 2018)

@Tiwaz -- Your questions:

"Do you or anyone have a recommendation for an attorney that will run this for a reasonable charge and send it to me via email?" I'm sorry, I do not have a recommendation. You should probably check with the State Bar for your former residence and do an an attorney search with recommendations. If an attorney finds something, they may also be able to negotiate a settlement, for literally pennies on the dollar -- to once and for all close this chapter of your life. Attorneys often specialize in certain fields of the law -- you may want to interview a few and they may be able to give you referrals if their practice doesn't fit. 

"Let's say there are liens or even something worse. Am I still safe to go and terminate my citizenship at the embassy?" Yes, if nothing else, you being a "foreigner" would be an incentive for any responsible agency "to settle."

"And if there is something, then it will never go away on its own regardless of how many years?" If no action has been taken, it will not be "actionable" after the statute of limitation, but its still there until it's settled. If actions have been initiated, they are there until closed.

"Even if I have something from the past, I could still go to the Embassy without any problems?" Yes, your appointment will be with a foreign service officer in the Counselor Section of the Embassy. They have zero visibility of your potential tax situation and are basically paper pushers. Cheers, 255


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

For what it's worth in this discussion, a couple of mitigating factors here:

The Embassies and Consulates are run by the US Departement of State, while tax matters are IRS matters, and the IRS reports up the chain to the Department of the Treasury. Generally speaking, both departments (think "ministries") are vastly under funded and under staffed - and neither one likes "working for" the other. So in general terms, State doesn't mess with Treasury matters and vice versa. Check the website for the US Embassy in Nicaragua to see what, if anything, they have on "how to renounce." Some Embassies do 80 or 90% of the work by phone and Internet before they bring you in in person to raise your right hand and swear you read all the terms and conditions and understand them. Others insist on two "interviews" in person at the consulate. 

If the bank has knowledge of your US birthplace, they very well may report your bank and other balances to the US whether or not you give them your US SS number. (The US birthplace is an "indice" of potential US citizenship and for them it's safer to just report everyone's accounts if they show an indice that "might" indicate that they are a "US person" - even after you submit a CLN - certificate of loss of nationality.) It's more of a CYA thing for the banks than anything else - just in case they get audited by the IRS some day.

It varies by consulate, but while they have to advise you that you are "expected" to be up to date on your US tax filings, I have yet to talk to anyone who says they were asked point blank to confirm that. (I certainly wasn't - and for the record, the consulate I went through was extremely "user friendly" through the whole process.) And, in your case, because you believed you had relinquished your nationality officially, your lack of filing is perfectly valid. They don't actually check on that after the fact, nor do they seem to do anything about following up on whether or not you file that "expat tax" information form. 

Like Rod Serling used to say on the old Twilight Zone series: "For your consideration..."


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## Tiwaz (11 mo ago)

Bevdeforges said:


> For what it's worth in this discussion, a couple of mitigating factors here:
> 
> The Embassies and Consulates are run by the US Departement of State, while tax matters are IRS matters, and the IRS reports up the chain to the Department of the Treasury. Generally speaking, both departments (think "ministries") are vastly under funded and under staffed - and neither one likes "working for" the other. So in general terms, State doesn't mess with Treasury matters and vice versa. Check the website for the US Embassy in Nicaragua to see what, if anything, they have on "how to renounce." Some Embassies do 80 or 90% of the work by phone and Internet before they bring you in in person to raise your right hand and swear you read all the terms and conditions and understand them. Others insist on two "interviews" in person at the consulate.
> 
> ...


Hi Bevdeforges,

Those are definitely interesting mitigating factors. 

I don't see how to keep banks from knowing that I was born in the US. It says so even right on my Nicaraguan passport and cedula. Do you have any thoughts on how I can deal with this? I would like to be able to get back to having an account especially when I get to Mexico. So even with a CLN, I might get reported? I assume the IRS could garnish money in an account if they can show money owed if I am in a country that has a treaty with the US - even if I have officially terminated citizenship and have a CLN? 

If I'm understanding this right, this would then give me no protection and I am back to where I started. Am I understanding right? This is a bummer as I was thinking the CLN would solve most all of any real issues. 

I suppose asking the bank if my CLN would keep my relationship with them private would simply wave red flags making it more likely they would report. 

Do you have any ideas of how to proceed or any way to solve this?

Thank you for the information on the embassies and consulates. That makes things much clearer. 

I notice when going to the webpage to set up an appointment that there is no category called appointment for terminating nationality or anything like that. I assume I make an appointment for non-passport services?

Is it possible to call the embassy and discuss this by phone or does it require an appointment, do you know?

I definitely feel better about dealing with the embassy. Thank you for these thoughts.


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## Harry Moles (11 mo ago)

Tiwaz said:


> So even with a CLN, I might get reported?


No, the point of the CLN is that it proves to the bank that you are no longer a US person (despite having a US birthplace) and therefore not subject to FATCA reporting.



Tiwaz said:


> I assume the IRS could garnish money in an account if they can show money owed if I am in a country that has a treaty with the US


Not easily. The IRS can't simply seize money from foreign bank accounts. It would a major undertaking in another country's courts. Pretty expensive for them so there would need to be significant gains to make it worth their while.



Tiwaz said:


> If I'm understanding this right, this would then give me no protection and I am back to where I started. Am I understanding right?


If you owed the US government a large sum of money from something that happened in the past, and they decided to come after you, then renouncing your citizenship (or documenting a past relinquishment after having incurred the debt) probably won't help you. When you renounce US citizenship, the only thing the consular official says to you on the subject of taxes is that doing this will not wipe out any past tax debts. If you are concerned about potential criminal or financial exposure, you should contact a lawyer in the US.



Tiwaz said:


> Is it possible to call the embassy and discuss this by phone or does it require an appointment, do you know?


Every diplomatic post will have its own contact arrangements. Presumably the web site will provide more information. This is not complicated. Send them an e-mail and ask for a renunciation appointment. Doing so will not result in a black van full of FBI agents appearing at your door early the next morning.

[Sorry for any identity confusion. Spot of bother after telling someone off for posting very uninformed and unhinged views on the current situation in Ottawa. Will confine myself to providing advice on tax evasion.]


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Tiwaz said:


> I don't see how to keep banks from knowing that I was born in the US. It says so even right on my Nicaraguan passport and cedula. Do you have any thoughts on how I can deal with this?


The same way everyone else who has renounced does - you do what you can and you rely on the apparent fact that with all that data that comes streaming in for FATCA compliance, the IRS doesn't actually seem to make any effort to review it at the individual level (unless, perhaps, they have some indication that an individual has a very significant unpaid debt to the tax service). It may also depend on the privacy laws in your country of residence (or where your bank and other financial accounts are located). 

The big thing to remember in all this is that it's not about you or your situation. The banks are merely looking to cover their own butts on these FATCA requirements so that they can continue to do business in the US. If you give them a copy of your CLN, you theoretically aren't subject to having your accounts reported, but it depends on how the national reporting system works in whatever country you have your bank accounts. But, as long as the IRS remains underfunded and understaffed as it is, chances are it really doesn't matter if you're reported when you shouldn't be.



Tiwaz said:


> I notice when going to the webpage to set up an appointment that there is no category called appointment for terminating nationality or anything like that. I assume I make an appointment for non-passport services?
> 
> Is it possible to call the embassy and discuss this by phone or does it require an appointment, do you know?


As Harry says, the various embassies set things up in different ways. It can be difficult to find information about renouncing unless you do a search on the embassy website. Some consulates start the process off with an email (use the "contact us" links on the site if there is one), others take phone queries on specific subjects only during specific time slots - say, certain days of the week and only for an hour or two on those days. You generally have to dig around on the website a bit - and if there isn't anything, use the "contact us" information (generally speaking email is safer if you use their email set up on the site - the one where they give you a list of "subject" headers to choose from) and give them a good couple of weeks to respond. (The State Department is at least as underfunded and understaffed as the IRS.) 

They won't counsel you - but they should be able to give you the terms and conditions plus explain the process at their embassy - what documents you need to submit and how many in-person appointments you'll need. Also how they'll accept payment. There also appears to be no "standard" CLN format - and they advise you that you need to hold onto whatever they give you as there is no central file or even a data base of who has or hasn't renounced. Whatever paper "certificate" they give you is all you'll ever have to "prove" your status.


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## Harry Moles (11 mo ago)

There's no reason to fear a renunciation/relinquishment appointment. A consular official will ask if you understand the consequences of your action, take some basic information, accept your payment, and process the paperwork. That's it. Very quick, very polite. There is no criminal background check, no enquiry into past tax status or current compliance. Other than reminding you that renunciation does not eliminate past US tax debts, the subject never comes up. They may ask for your SSN, but you are not required to supply it and they should not object if you don't supply it. In and out in 20 minutes if all goes well, and your CLN arrives in the mail a few months later. (The IRS will eventually receive a list of names from the State Department, but we know that they don't actually do anything with those names.)

Unlike the Saudis, they won't have bone saws and garbage bags waiting for you at the embassy.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Harry Moles said:


> and your CLN arrives in the mail a few months later.


Don't know how it happened, but I had my CLN within a couple of weeks. (Must have hit a lull in the scheduling or something.) They used to say that your renunciation wasn't final until your name showed up in the Federal Register - and that takes a few months - but nowadays, the CLN shows up, dated as of the day of your final appointment at the consulate. 

Then again, there is that Olympian, Eileen Gu, who allegedly renounced in 2019, though apparently there is no record of any official transaction. But I'm not sure she was old enough to be able to renounce back in 2019.


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## Harry Moles (11 mo ago)

Bevdeforges said:


> Don't know how it happened, but I had my CLN within a couple of weeks. (Must have hit a lull in the scheduling or something.) They used to say that your renunciation wasn't final until your name showed up in the Federal Register - and that takes a few months - but nowadays, the CLN shows up, dated as of the day of your final appointment at the consulate.
> 
> Then again, there is that Olympian, Eileen Gu, who allegedly renounced in 2019, though apparently there is no record of any official transaction. But I'm not sure she was old enough to be able to renounce back in 2019.


Mine was about a month. At the appointment they stated that the if the application is approved - which they assured me it would be - then the renunciation is effective on the day of the appointment, and the CLN is back-dated.

No way did Eileen Gu renounce her US citizenship. China is not requiring that its foreign athletes give up their passports - one of the Americans playing hockey for them said this in an interview. It's also possible that Miss Gu is seen as having had Chinese citizenship from birth due to her mother being born in China. The only thing she did in 2019 was declare that she would compete for China, which would have required that she have a Chinese passport.


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## Tiwaz (11 mo ago)

This has been extremely helpful. I am feeling much better and more confident about contacting the embassy. 

One of the reasons I have been hesitant to contact an attorney back in the US is because after speaking to a friend of mine who is married to an attorney, they cautioned me that an attorney is required to try and keep me in the system. And a tax attorney may get some of the money they are able to collect. In other words, it's kind of a racket. So I just thought it is better to leave sleeping dogs lie. And since I will likely never go back to the United States, there's probably nothing that would happen. Then I decided that I might go to Mexico and that's when all of this started coming up for me and I found this forum.


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## Harry Moles (11 mo ago)

Tiwaz said:


> to try and keep me in the system


Define "system"


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## Tiwaz (11 mo ago)

Harry Moles said:


> Define "system"


Hi Harry,

That is actually a good question. LOL At first I thought it would be obvious. But it's really not to me. Let me tell you what my friend was saying and then my assumption - which could be an error. Then please tell me where you are heading with your question.

What he was saying is that tax attorneys, enrolled agents etc. often earn a good amount of money based on what they are able to collect for the IRS. So it is not really a "clean" relationship and that there is a conflict of interest if you want to see it that way. 

Further, as people have implied here in this forum, there are ways of doing things that aren't exactly the way the government might have hoped they were enabling. My friend and his wife said that the hope of the government and the intention of licensed agents be they attorneys or what have you, is to keep you as a taxpayer. At a minimum to try and get all issues resolved and all "I's" dotted and all "T's" crossed in a manner most favorable for the government. 

Another attorney I heard on a show just sometime ago, but the show seems to have either gone off air or something, also said that attorneys can't really tell you alternatives that don't equal what the governments "party line" says they have to say. He said they will not tell you the fringe ways that things can be dealt with. Even though he is an attorney he suggested not talking to an attorney until one is quite sure of the situation and what they want to do. And he strongly recommended against talking with an accountant as there is no attorney-client privilege. 

And a number of the people here that have been answering me have suggested let's just say "alternate" ways of dealing with things that are not necessarily by the numbers the way the powers that be would approve of. These are my kind of people. 

I came here looking for alternatives. Not how to get rammed deeper into "the system". And that's precisely what would happen if I began filing returns etc. 

All of this is a long way of trying to say what was on my mind when I said "the system". And I guess more concisely it would be doing anything that would dig whatever tax hole may be present, deeper. 

Probably too long of an answer. But answering it brought more clarity to my mind. 

I'd love to know what prompted the question.


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## Harry Moles (11 mo ago)

What prompted the question was your generic reference to "the system" - that sort of imprecision suggests conspiratorial thinking, which interferes with your ability to make sensible decisions.

Further thoughts:

1. Attorney-client privilege is still a thing. A lawyer will not (or at least should not) rat you out to the IRS. This is not true of accountants, enrolled agents or tax preparers. For this reason, people in serious tax trouble will often hire a lawyer to communicate with an accountant, without revealing the client's identity.

2. Attorneys are not in business of advising clients to do anything illegal. So this is where it gets a bit complex with expat tax issues. A lawyer won't, on the record, tell someone in your position that they are best served by ignoring the IRS. But they also won't tell the IRS where to find you (see point #1, above).



Tiwaz said:


> I came here looking for alternatives. Not how to get rammed deeper into "the system". And that's precisely what would happen if I began filing returns etc.


I never suggested that you should file US tax returns. I suggested that if you are worried about some sort of legal proceeding hanging over your head back in the US, you should contact a *lawyer* (see: attorney-client privilege) to make discreet enquiries on your behalf.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Just to put in a word for the tax attorneys and accountants of the world (full disclosure, I am an accountant by trade). They aren't primarily motivated by finder's fees so much as the need to hold onto their professional licenses and their tax registration. One aspect of how the IRS evaluates your tax returns is to note who your tax preparer is (since paid tax preparers are required to register with the IRS and various ethical rules require CPAs and probably tax attorneys to sign the tax returns where they have actually "prepared" a certain part). They do keep track of those tax preparers who seem to have signed lots of returns that run into problems or take excessively "aggressive" positions and tend to flag returns of those preparers for closer scrutiny. That doesn't do anything for business, so tax preparers have to toe the straight and narrow line, even when they are well aware of simpler alternatives. (It's also a reason that many "accountants" list their profession on their personal returns as "business person" as I was advised to do early on in my career. Not that I do tax return preparation nor did I ever do - for just that reason.)


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## Tiwaz (11 mo ago)

Bevdeforges said:


> Just to put in a word for the tax attorneys and accountants of the world (full disclosure, I am an accountant by trade). They aren't primarily motivated by finder's fees so much as the need to hold onto their professional licenses and their tax registration. One aspect of how the IRS evaluates your tax returns is to note who your tax preparer is (since paid tax preparers are required to register with the IRS and various ethical rules require CPAs and probably tax attorneys to sign the tax returns where they have actually "prepared" a certain part). They do keep track of those tax preparers who seem to have signed lots of returns that run into problems or take excessively "aggressive" positions and tend to flag returns of those preparers for closer scrutiny. That doesn't do anything for business, so tax preparers have to toe the straight and narrow line, even when they are well aware of simpler alternatives. (It's also a reason that many "accountants" list their profession on their personal returns as "business person" as I was advised to do early on in my career. Not that I do tax return preparation nor did I ever do - for just that reason.)


That is really helpful and adds a lot of clarity. 

Just to note, my intention here was not to malign any group of people but more to try and answer the question that was asked of me and state why I was concerned about contacting a lawyer. 

I appreciate the light that has been shown on this subject. I can see how it could be practical to contact a lawyer and I can certainly see the benefit of working with accountants. My situation is a tad difficult and I felt like I would be benefited by learning all I could here in this forum. I'm really glad I did. This has been precisely what I was looking for.


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## alan-in-mesicali (Apr 26, 2018)

I am an expat residing in Mexico. Mexico requires a minimum of a TP visa - open to age 62 and up Gringos, don't know about Nic citizens.... which requires an income of roughly US$3500 per month, as proven by bank statements or a low mid 6 figure CASH account. I suggest, IF you still have a bank account, to find a Nicaraguan bank that either has a "sister" bank in Mexico or is truly international like HSBC [VERY popular in Mexcio] and open an account in Mexico WHILE you still have the account in Nicaragua. You might also check out "only online" banks ... from regions that are "safe" like the Cayman Islands, Isle of Man... and so on....you get a debit card you can use anyplace in the world....
As for the IRS, as one who has suffered under their spite, IF you are foolish enough to contact them, AND there is only ONE DAY left before the 10 year period [from the date of their last attempted contact] YOU START THE CLOCK ALL OVER AGAIN!!!
IF the US Government wants you for a CRIME then there is no "Statute of Limitations" that will take them off your trail.
I would definitely get a certified copy of your "renouncement of citizenship" letter you gave the Government of Nicaragua... but don't offer it to Mexican IMM UNLESS you have to .... do you now travel on a Nicaraguan PASSPORT???... as a citizen of Nicaragua, THAT is how you want to apply for Permanente Resident permit from Mexico. 
GOOD LUCK!!!


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