# Mold allergies and indoor air quality



## arbb

I have mold allergies that have caused me a lot of health issues in various flats that I've lived in, even ones without any obvious mold. My symptoms are varied and sometimes extreme (e.g. nasal polyps, hives, asthmatic bronchitis). It's been especially bad in the UK and has prevented me relocating there despite several attempts.

Wondering how much of problem damp and mold are in flats in Portugal, especially in and around Lisbon? I've been told that damp can be an issue in winter due to lack of heating and that walls require an annual wash of lime.

Does anyone here have similar health issues and, if so, have they improved in Portugal?


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## siobhanwf

Why not think of using a dehumidifier Arbb


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## arbb

Thanks siobhanwf,

I have used them. I also use a very good filter and a HEPA vacuum. Better than a dehumidifier and many other measures combined is not living in house with mold issues whether it's due to climate, poor construction, poor maintenance or no heating etc. Because of my allergies, I react to a much smaller amount spores than someone without would. I am also more susceptible to mold related illnesses.


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## travelling-man

Would it help to move inland & away from the sea if humidity is an issue or is it damp buildings rather than humidity?

Also would of those cpap machines help?


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## bom dia lisbon

Indoor dampness (and the issues it brings) is a fact of life here in Lisbon in winter. Thankfully, the rest of the year is blissfully dry.


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## arbb

Hi travelling-man

I think a house anywhere can have mold issues if the right conditions are met. So going inland might not be sufficient on it's own. Ideally I'd keep moisture down and airflow by opening up the windows a lot, but that's preventive and won't help a building that already has problems.

Is central heating or heated flats (don't mean little portable ones or fireplace) more common than it use to be (say 20 years ago). Have you noticed a lot of mold or damp in homes in the winter?

Thanks for the cpap suggestion (I appreciate outside the box thinking , but not sure that would protect me if my home had issues (spores or mycotoxins in the air). The best thing I can do is avoid damp houses. Which I've come to learn is a lot more difficult than it sounds!


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## arbb

Thanks bom dia lisbon!

So do you think pretty much all houses have it or might some be better e.g. modern ones?


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## travelling-man

arbb

I can understand it's a very big & very real problem for you.

Bearing in mind how mould grows, I guess you need to live in a more modern/better insulated/better heated place rather than somewhere with stone walls & unheated etc.

If you can stop the mould growing in the first place then you're more than halfway there.

I'm no expert but would think it's quite possible to find the right house in the right area for your needs but would think you'll probably suffer a lot less if you didn't live on the coast.


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## bom dia lisbon

I do believe, in my limited experience and non-expert opinion, that the problem will be lessened in new construction. Not sure how common central heating is. Electricity can be very expensive. For this reason many people opt for space heaters (and warm blankets!).


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## baldilocks

Have you actually been medically diagnosed with mould/fungal-allergies (I mean properly diagnosed, not just by some quack out to sell you some form of snake-oil)? If so any specific types?


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## BodgieMcBodge

The more traditional construction, single stone walls with wooden beams will allow moisture to permeate through the wall so the whole structure can “breathe”, you will always get high humidity inside if there is high humidity outside and it is the difference in temperature which will cause condensation. If you start insulating these old buildings with impervious material this will trap the moisture and damage the structure over a period of time. Modern construction of double skinned walls means you have a building within a building so the internal building can be thermally insulated and climate controlled. By having a modern place with all the rooms at a similar temperature, adequate ventilation in bathrooms and no leaking gutters etc. there should not be any internal damp. There are always spores in the air but they can be managed by preventing damp which will then stop any mould from growing and reproducing billions more spores.


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## arbb

thank you travellingm-man for your thoughful reply. 

i think new construction is more likely have "built-in" heating, but it's not a guarantee. thanks bomdia

baldilocks. yes, properly diagnosed by mainstream allergist, confirmed with blood testing by mainstream GP and I'm allergic to several common indoor (and outdoor) molds. Though I generally don't have problems while out doors unless I've become ill from (over) exposure indoors. The best "medicine" is avoidance.


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## arbb

BodgieMcBodge said:


> The more traditional construction, single stone walls with wooden beams will allow moisture to permeate through the wall so the whole structure can “breathe”, you will always get high humidity inside if there is high humidity outside and it is the difference in temperature which will cause condensation. If you start insulating these old buildings with impervious material this will trap the moisture and damage the structure over a period of time. Modern construction of double skinned walls means you have a building within a building so the internal building can be thermally insulated and climate controlled. By having a modern place with all the rooms at a similar temperature, adequate ventilation in bathrooms and no leaking gutters etc. there should not be any internal damp. There are always spores in the air but they can be managed by preventing damp which will then stop any mould from growing and reproducing billions more spores.


Thanks so much! You're on point and understand the issue(s) - it's not that there are spores present, it's the number of spores present and the mycotoxins they release while growing. I really appreciate your taking the time to post about traditional construction and what to look for if/when we move. I have even had problems in apartments that have had fixed leaks if the leaks were left unattended to long enough then repaired. The spores that grow at 24 hours are not the same as spores at 48 hours and so on. It's very complicated and I'm just beginning to get a small handle on it. Partly due to the fact that I had to leave an apartment after a week while still being responsible for the rent (v expensive as it was in central London). I would love to (still) be able to live where I like, sadly, I can't. Thanks again to you and traveling-man for your informative replies.


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## Ronnie_Yook

Hi arbb, Sorry to hear about your mould problems.

When we migrated down here, one of the machines we brought with us was a "Steam Buggy" it is a water vapouriser, basically it is a portable steam cleaner, it has different lances and is very efficient at sterilizing and removing surface moulds. I beleive that this a similar machine used by hospitals in the UK for sterilizing.

We have used the buggy on cement rendered walls, wood, and we have even used it on the glass windows in our bathroom to remove the mould which, horrifyingly, appeared in our house this winter.

This has been a good temporary remedy before the oncoming Spring, when we can give the house a bit more ventilation.

It is also useful for preparing walls (usually in the corners) etc which were affected by moulds, and after sterilising with the Steam Buggy, allow the treated areas to dry before re-decorating.


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## baldilocks

arbb said:


> I have mold allergies that have caused me a lot of health issues in various flats that I've lived in, even ones without any obvious mold. My symptoms are varied and sometimes extreme (e.g. nasal polyps, hives, asthmatic bronchitis). It's been especially bad in the UK and has prevented me relocating there despite several attempts.
> 
> Wondering how much of problem damp and mold are in flats in Portugal, especially in and around Lisbon? I've been told that damp can be an issue in winter due to lack of heating and that walls require an annual wash of lime.
> 
> Does anyone here have similar health issues and, if so, have they improved in Portugal?


Painting the walls with limewash (also called "Cal") is far from the solution. Firstly you need to identify the source of the dampness. Is it due to rain penetration or is it rising damp caused by a lack of a damp-proof membrane at the base of the wall?

If it is rain penetration:
The outside of the walls need to be hacked off (especially the multiple layers of Cal) and replastered with what is known as "Capa Fina" which is waterproof once set, then painted over with "Pintura Plastica" (a plastic emulsion paint).​
If it is rising damp:
The interior plaster needs to be hacked off. The bare surface then needs to be either (a) painted with PVA (poly vinyl acetate) which forms a flexible waterproof membrane then replastered, or (b) replastered with Capa Fina; finally repainted with Pintura Plastica​.

I apologise for using the Spanish names for the stuff that you need to use but any work person worth his/her salt in Portugal will know what they are in Portuguese.


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## brianb

brianb 2 - Additionally the outgoing airs heat, heats the incoming external air. As a quick test stand inside a caravan in the summer and inside a stone house [or castle]; if you go near the internal stone wall you'll find a very tiny discomfort as part of your body heat is absorbed by said wall. In addition on a warm day with the sun heating the stone building a certain amount of evaporation will also make you feel colder, I liken this to an inverted terracotta plant pot. I realize these amounts are minimal but they really make a difference to ones comfort zone. Thanks for reading and I'll look forward to any corrections and or ideas.


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## brianb

Hi, so mold allergies and air quality. I've lived in stone and brick houses in Wales and timber frame houses in Canada. Your answer is timber frame home [although I add I have not lived in one in the UK]. I've answered this without thinking about it, so on reflection, air gives up its water vapor to a cold surface and the internal surfaces in a brick and a stone house are cold. water vapor on the wall encourages allergies to grow-so rent one and see. Now air quality can be improved at a price with an air circulation/exchange device which exchanges internal air [moist from kettle,bath,tap,people breathing, meals all add up] for external air. Unfortunately this text is 2 long so I'll follow this starting brianb2-


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## genialgeorge

Problem in Portugal is two-fold: We do have quite high humidity in winter and damp courses in older houses are a rarity. the latter causes damp walls. Home owners often try to cure this by waterproofing the outside of walls. This blocks the escape route for the rising damp causing it to be concentrated in the interior. So just use old fashioned 'cal' on the ouside and keep interior WELL VENTILATED. Almost impossible to fit damp course on old stone house, but there are electrical sustems which do work after inside has been stripped and re-rendered to remove water attracting salts. Good luck


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## baldilocks

Another option if you are getting rain penetration is to fit corrugated iron (or other metal or even plastic) siding to provide a waterproof barrier. The fact that it is corrugated allows the wall behind it to breathe.


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## weatherwatcher

This is a very interesting post as we have just had to drive back to our house in Spain because we had mould everywhere in the house, every wall up to the windows was covered in it, all the beds and furniture, everything in the cupboards and drawers . We had a friend looking in our house every week and he told us that one week all was okay and the following week it looked like we'd had a flood. We had a Spanish builder in to look and he told us it had happened because we didn't have any ventilation ( airbricks ) in the walls and that because of the very humid conditions just recently, this had happened. The insurance people don't want to know because they say they don't pay out for mould unless it can be proved to be from a leak, which they've already searched for and can't find. We now have to come up with a solution to make sure that this doesn't happen again, so it was quite interesting to read these posts.


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## canoeman

Fit a couple of solar powered ventilation units if house unattended not prone to power cuts and leave all internal doors open


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## weatherwatcher

canoeman said:


> Fit a couple of solar powered ventilation units if house unattended not prone to power cuts and leave all internal doors open


We always leave internal doors open but the solar powered vents , yes they sound a good idea thanks for that.


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## baldilocks

mlsroofing said:


> I had similar problems. I took some advice from a doctor. He suggested me anti-histamin. Now i don't feel like earlier.


You are breaking forum rules regarding advertising which is not allowed unless you are a Premium member. See: http://www.expatforum.com/expats/general-expat-discussions/2397-forum-rules.html Rule 10


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## DeeLondon

arbb said:


> I have mold allergies that have caused me a lot of health issues in various flats that I've lived in, even ones without any obvious mold. My symptoms are varied and sometimes extreme (e.g. nasal polyps, hives, asthmatic bronchitis). It's been especially bad in the UK and has prevented me relocating there despite several attempts.



Why don't you just kill the mold? 

You can buy several products which kill mold - I can't post links as I am new but google Starbrite Mildrew


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## windwalker

DeeLondon said:


> Why don't you just kill the mold?
> 
> You can buy several products which kill mold - I can't post links as I am new but google Starbrite Mildrew


For those who are sensitive to mold, dead mold is as toxic as live mold.


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## BodgieMcBodge

It is not the mould which is the problem but the excess of mould spores released by the mould into the air. Killing the mould will temporary stop the release of spores but unless the underlying cause, usually moisture related, is treated the mould will start again.


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## windwalker

BodgieMcBodge said:


> It is not the mould which is the problem but the excess of mould spores released by the mould into the air. Killing the mould will temporary stop the release of spores but unless the underlying cause, usually moisture related, is treated the mould will start again.


It's not just the mold spores that are the problem. Mold contains toxins that some people are sensitive to. They are present in both live and dead mold or spores.


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## mrsanniemac

*mould*

Hi everybody I would like to add to this discussion by saying I live in Albufeira and have done for the last 4 years. I suffer from a disease called COP/BOOP I had to leave the UK for health reasons, where the cold, damp, mouldy houses are common place.
Before leaving I suffered on average 6-9 episodes of pneumonia per year. I now live in a 7 year old apartment where previous posters have said gets very damp in the winter due to condensation. We did find mould to start with but now have a dehumidifier in each room plus an oil filled radiator which is on low throughout the high humid months. The first year while trying to find a balance I had 6 episodes, the second winter 4, the third 2 and have not had a flare up since January last year.

The point I would like to make is, its all about balance. Every bout of pneumonia I have leaves fibrosis on my lungs which in time kills. I could not live back in the UK for this reason. If you have a reaction no matter where you live, then pick the place that's least likely to set you off. Portugal for ME is that place, the climate is perfect for ME try and find the perfect place for YOU.

Good Luck


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## gokul

*bring changes to your diet*

Hi,
I have been in a similar situation for a very long time. I am basically from India and have worked in several places in India(Hyderabad,Mumbai,Goa etc). Also worked in Thailand, Malaysia. I observed that the place where you live and the climate surrounding you does make your allergy worse in damp conditions. But if you have the right intake of food that can improve your immunity towards allergy then you can reduce the frequency of falling sick drastically.

In my case Thailand and Malaysia are no much different in terms of climate comparing Mumbai and Goa in India. All these are humid places with sea shore nearby. In india I get allergic and fall sick every 30-45days with Upper respiratory track infections. But I never fell sick in Thailand, not even a single day in 2 yrs. Now I am in Malaysia and fall sick may be once in 3-5 months. The difference in all these places I found is majorly dust and food. India is full of dust on the roads and everywhere else. It is comparatively a lot less in Thailand and Malaysia. Another difference is food. In Thai food they use a lot of Lemon grass and Lemon leaves as spices. Regular intake of Citrus content might have helped me in fighting allergy. 

I suggest you to identify the food that can lead you to allergy or the other way around and keep an eye on that.

All the best.


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## 123Lee

Hi arbb,
You have my sympathies, I have multple allergies (yes diagnosed byNHS Doctors!), along with other unrelated problems, .
I think most people who have these problems try all the alternatives herbal, diet, sunshine etc etc, butwhat works for one person may not work for the next as there are so many other factors involved
.
Having said that I have lived in Ireland, Malta, Scotland, Portugal and now back in England. I have lived west coasts (more rain) and east, I have lived in nearly 50 homes, all different. In Portugal I lived in newbuild, old cottage, old apartment and 40 year apartment. My daughter lived in Greece but returned to the Uk after 5 years because of the damp, same problems as in Portugal. Houses in europe which are hot in the summer are mostly damp and cold in the winter
. This is why so many expats go to such lengths to put in central heating.Because this is not commonplace it tends to be more expensive, unless you can diy and bring parts from uk. This helps with damp houses, but you must still ventilate. I think you personally could only do this with anew build that hasn't already had mould (but some new builds are a very long time in being built).

To sum up I would say, from personal experience, a more temperate climate than Portugal would provide less health risks for you, or if possible spend winters in a centrally heated dry house in uk which has damp proof course and insulation and sun-it in the drier months. (I do realise you would still have problems with the actual houses in the summer. Even if the house itself shows no sign of mould, just leave a leather belt or bag on the floor for a couple of weeks and see them become blue with mould, even in summer with windows open...although probably this would not happen in an apartment in the summer, as the floor is not on the ground, but unless well insulated you would still have damp walls in a damp/humid summer.
I think for many people who move to a 'better climate' there are shocks when the summer ends. I also think many people, having made the big break are reluctant to ever admit any faults in their chosen country, and many people who do move abroad have large amounts of money to spend on their new property to raise the comfort levels. 
I hope all these posts have helped you in your decisions, never easy!


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## 123Lee

Adding to my previous post. If you do become ill in Portugal without private health insurance it can be luck of the draw as to the treatment. I never experienced anything but kindness, but it is very difficult if your Doctor does not speak English and you are not completely fluent in Portuguese. I only ever found one doctor who was fluent in English enough to be able to discuss my illness. 
This probably woujld be very different in a large expat community.
I have nothing but praise for the NHS in England for all my illnesses, having experienced both countries I am very reluctant now to return to Portugal in case I am taken ill, and believe me I was an intrepid traveller!
Good luck


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## travelling-man

I've no idea how accurate the info was but I was told at my local GPs here in Portugal that all (PT NHS) medical practices are now required by law to have an English speaker on duty ant all times and certainly my practice have an English speaking receptionist and GP.


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## canoeman

Personally with treatment I have received here I have more faith in treatment, speed and efficiency of the Health Service here than UK and as yet no problems with language and my spoken Portuguese is horrendous


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## robert_william

Indoor air pollutants are elements that negatively affect the air quality inside a home or commercial building. Dust, pet dander, and hair styling products are common indoor air pollutants that most households have endured at some point or another.


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