# Spain to present new set of reforms by end September



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

> Spain will present by the end of September a new set of structural reforms, based on recommendations from the European Union and including a detailed timeline, Economy Minister Luis de Guindos said on Friday.
> 
> The new programme of reform will be made public along with the 2013 budget on September 28, the day the Spanish government will also publish the results of a final stress test of the country's banking sector.
> 
> Spain to present new set of reforms by end September | Reuters


Wonder what's on the way? Any guesses?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hopefully measures to make business more competitive....like further reducing the excessive amount of redundancy payable.

No wonder Spain ranks so low in the international competitiveness league tables.

Growth i.e. jobs are needed but although public money will be needed to kick-start the process it will be the private sector that will create the new jobs. The public sector here is already overblown and indebted and whilst public sector jobs recycle money and are good if only for that reason, the private sector creates wealth in the form of taxable profits.

Incidentally, I read this week that in 2009, tax avoidance by professionals and small businesspeople accounted for a staggering one-third of the Greek deficit.
Until people everywhere realise that paying due tax is a civic duty and not an option countries will not grow and will not be able to fund health care, education pensions and other vital social services.


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## Sirtravelot (Jul 20, 2011)

The autonomo fee, maybe?


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## neddie (Jun 11, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Incidentally, I read this week that in 2009, tax avoidance by professionals and small businesspeople accounted for a staggering one-third of the Greek deficit.
> Until people everywhere realise that paying due tax is a civic duty and not an option countries will not grow and will not be able to fund health care, education pensions and other vital social services.


......there is a way around the tax "avoidance" problem and that is to do away with ALL taxes and just have a consumption tax levied on new goods (as against used) sold to the end user. There is a group that has been pushing for this in the US...they call it the Fair Tax (can be Googled) but the politicians are against it as it would mean that they would loose control/leverage over the voters. As far as i am concerned that in itself would be a good enough reason to have it


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## Minerva.909 (Jul 29, 2012)

neddie said:


> ......there is a way around the tax "avoidance" problem and that is to do away with ALL taxes and just have a consumption tax levied on new goods (as against used) sold to the end user. There is a group that has been pushing for this in the US...they call it the Fair Tax (can be Googled) but the politicians are against it as it would mean that they would loose control/leverage over the voters. As far as i am concerned that in itself would be a good enough reason to have it


Funny, how the right wing nuts in the USA call everything by its opposition. Consumption tax as a fair tax? It is the most unfair tax, because it is regressive: the poorer you are, the more of your income you consume and the more (percentually) tax you would pay. Is it so hard to understand?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Minerva.909 said:


> Funny, how the right wing nuts in the USA call everything by its opposition. Consumption tax as a fair tax? It is the most unfair tax, because it is regressive: the poorer you are, the more of your income you consume and the more (percentually) tax you would pay. Is it so hard to understand?


Its all a matter of opinion, which we're all entitled to. Personally I think a consumption tax is as fair as any other

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> Its all a matter of opinion, which we're all entitled to. Personally I think a consumption tax is as fair as any other
> 
> Jo xxx


No, Jo, it isn't fair and it doesn't raise sufficient tax income to support the range of services provided by the modern state.

It's unfair because any tax levied on consumption will hit the poorest hardest unless of course it was confined to luxury goods and set at a very high rate.

It's unworkable because this U.S. group like the other wingnuts so common over the pond believe in minimal government. They believe the state has a very limited role and should not be in the business of providing a whole range of services and utilities which we Europeans view as common goods that should be available to all and are essential for social cohesion and a rich common life.

So yes this system would work....if you want to live in a selfish society that would rapidly degenerate into a social jungle, a free-for-all.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Sirtravelot said:


> The autonomo fee, maybe?


yes - make it a % of income rather than a flat fee

some of my students are genuinely shocked when I ask for NIE numbers so that I can produce invoices (that they don't want) to keep my books straight

they seriously don't expect me to be 'legal'


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## neddie (Jun 11, 2012)

Minerva.909 said:


> Funny, how the right wing nuts in the USA call everything by its opposition. Consumption tax as a fair tax? It is the most unfair tax, because it is regressive: the poorer you are, the more of your income you consume and the more (percentually) tax you would pay. Is it so hard to understand?


.....i am sorry, i don't mean to harp on this but feel obliged to respond as you either don't know anything about the Fair Tax or you wish to ignore the facts.

Some years ago a group of economists, actuaries etc were contracted to come up with a system of taxation to replace the current system that exists in the US that would be simple and yet revenue neutral. After spending many millions in research they came up with what is known as the Fair Tax

..... this link will explain much and the video clips are easy to follow. What is the FairTax | What is a Consumption Tax | Answers on Tax Reform - Americans For Fair Taxation

......The FairTax provides a progressive program called a prebate. This gives every legal resident household an “advance refund” at the beginning of each month so that purchases made up to the poverty level are tax-free. The prebate prevents an unfair burden on low-income families. Illegal residents would not get the prebate and so they would be paying the sales tax on the first purchase each month.

......The Fair Tax is designed to be revenue neutral.

......Under the Fair Tax ALL taxes would go away e.g. income tax, property tax, capital gains tax etc etc and as a result there would be no need to do an income tax return :clap2: and tax 'loop holes' would be meaningless.


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## neddie (Jun 11, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> No, Jo, it isn't fair and it doesn't raise sufficient tax income to support the range of services provided by the modern state.
> 
> It's unfair because any tax levied on consumption will hit the poorest hardest unless of course it was confined to luxury goods and set at a very high rate.
> 
> ...


I really don't know what you mean by " whole range of services and utilities which we Europeans view as common goods that should be available to all and are essential for social cohesion and a rich common life." If you mean that it is great that the moochers should be free/allowed to feed off the government teat, then good luck to you......Greece is beginning to feel the full brunt of this type of 'lifestyle' that i wouldn't class as 'social cohesion and rich common life'.

We have a fraternity of broodmares over here who are unable to hold an aspirin between their knees and as a result download little rug rats at an alarming rate. They are promptly rewarded by the government with increases in the amount they receive in their monthly cheques :confused2:......in most instances they don't even know who the father is/are.

Yes, there is a place for government but not in my kitchen, not in my bedroom or on how or where i wish to spend the money i have earned. It is not the function of government to take money from those who have earned it legitimately and give it to those who by their own choice or action decide to live off the 'tax payer'.
Some may think i sound bitter or a bit of a 'wing nut', well, in a way i am......well, you see, the Zimbabwe government decided to take my money with the exception of $740.00 and two suitcases when i emigrated. Through hard work and sacrifice i am debt free, have some savings and am now in a position to retire........and am considering Spain


Yes, i believe that the State should have a very _limited_ role.


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## Minerva.909 (Jul 29, 2012)

neddie said:


> .....i am sorry, i don't mean to harp on this but feel obliged to respond as you either don't know anything about the Fair Tax or you wish to ignore the facts.
> 
> Some years ago a group of economists, actuaries etc were contracted to come up with a system of taxation to replace the current system that exists in the US that would be simple and yet revenue neutral. After spending many millions in research they came up with what is known as the Fair Tax
> 
> ...


I see we have to agree to disagree. Right wing nuts have behind them a Koch brother type billionaires to pay for their propaganda machines to snow undereducated American populace. And I did leave the cradle of conservatism, the US bible belt, and Georgia to avoid heart attack listening to right wingers.


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## Minerva.909 (Jul 29, 2012)

neddie said:


> We have a fraternity of broodmares over here who are unable to hold an aspirin between their knees and as a result download little rug rats at an alarming rate. They are promptly rewarded by the government with increases in the amount they receive in their monthly cheques :confused2:......in most instances they don't even know who the father is/are.


This is the type of a language and the type of "thinking" I wanted to avoid moving back to Europe, alas neddie is considering Spain... sigh. 

May I ask what are you looking for in Spain, neddie? Spain, like other PIGS, made a lot of mistakes in handling their economic development. But it is not a banana republic and hopefully never will be. So what attracts to it a person like you? 

If you think Spais is less of a welfare state than US is, you are sorely mistaken. Spain is Europe, after all.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

neddie said:


> ......The FairTax provides a progressive program called a prebate. This gives every legal resident household an “advance refund” at the beginning of each month so that purchases made up to the poverty level are tax-free. The prebate prevents an unfair burden on low-income families. Illegal residents would not get the prebate and so they would be paying the sales tax on the first purchase each month.
> 
> .


Which in simple English means the tax load would be dumped on the middle class. 

BTW those "loop holes" you talk about are a form of incentive. The US encourages people to take risks by having a lower capital gains tax. It has lower local funding by having tax free muni bonds.

It creates higher local control over spending by having property tax.

BTW one of the problems in Greece is the relatively large military spending. With all the cuts in overall spending Greece will be spending TWICE the EU average on it's military. Almost 2/3 of the total Greek debt load is what they've spent on military during the last forty years.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> It's unworkable because this U.S. group like the other wingnuts so common over the pond believe in *minimal government. They believe the state has a very limited role and should not be in the business of providing a whole range of services and utilities *... that should be available to all and are essential for social cohesion and a rich common life.


a.k.a. Thatcherism!! OK, OK now I'll go and wash my mouth out with carbolic and water.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

neddie said:


> I really don't know what you mean by " whole range of services and utilities which we Europeans view as common goods that should be available to all and are essential for social cohesion and a rich common life." If you mean that it is great that the moochers should be free/allowed to feed off the government teat, then good luck to you......Greece is beginning to feel the full brunt of this type of 'lifestyle' that i wouldn't class as 'social cohesion and rich common life'.
> 
> We have a fraternity of broodmares over here who are unable to hold an aspirin between their knees and as a result download little rug rats at an alarming rate. They are promptly rewarded by the government with increases in the amount they receive in their monthly cheques :confused2:......in most instances they don't even know who the father is/are.
> 
> ...




In which case I guess you must deplore the fact that a large amount of money has gone directly from the U.S. taxpayer to the armaments and aerospace industries....an example of state support to private industry unrivalled in Europe.

Your simplistic neo-liberal view of economic theory has left the U.S. with pockets of poverty, crime and deprivation unknown in Europe. Your political class has been emasculated and power handed over to the judiciary which has resulted in the politisation of law and compromised the impartiality of your judiciary.
Your culture of rights has resulted in low-intensity civil war between blacks, gays, women.... 

Greece and the global economy is suffering from the flawed economic theory originating in Austria and propagated by the Chicago School in the U.S. and taken up by devoted acolytes such as Thatcher in Europe. Your saints of free enterprise, Friedman and Hayek, have caused more misery and destruction than the misjudged Iraq and Afghan wars. (I'm not going to even touch further on the lunatic Ayn Rand, who preached egoism and self-sufficiency yet ended up relying on Medicare).

By a 'whole range of services' common in Europe, although damaged by the politics you espouse, I mean decent housing, health care, education and quality public spaces....parks, common land, museums, galleries. These, especially the latter, must be provided by local or national government since they provide no opportunity for profit for an entrepreneur. But since many U.S. cities are virtual no-go areas for pedestrians due to high crime levels I guess you won't understand why we Europeans love our parks and open spaces where communal life can freely flourish.

The U.S. is no longer able to call the shots in the world. It's inane involvement in foreign wars, its mission to spread its power and 'culture' world-wide has come to an end.
No longer can the U.S. issue credible threats....foreign mobs can burn the U.S. flag with impunity and foreign Governments can safely ignore U.S. threats and bluster.
China owns most of you anyway and is set to topple you from your position as the world's superpower. Yet so many Americans cling blindly to their free market faith which is the cause of the nation's decay.

Your paragraph about 'brood mares' is imo frankly coarse and vulgar and impacts on the validity of the rest of your argument. 

Interesting that you are considering retirement in Spain, a country with problems - caused by adherence to the economic philosophy you espouse - but still with fine traditions of European social democracy. You will enjoy our traditions, our culture...even though those ultimate symbols of American culture, MacDonalds and Kentucky Fried Chicken, are sadly ubiquitous.

I am no Ameriphobe...on the contrary I admire and respect many of her achievements. But these fine achievements have been hijacked and obliterated by the sheer stupidity and intellectual obtuseness of the right-wing nuts, neo-cons and assorted headcases who you and too many of your fellow-countrymen have allowed to lead them by the nose into decline.


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## neddie (Jun 11, 2012)

Minerva.909 said:


> I see we have to agree to disagree. Right wing nuts have behind them a Koch brother type billionaires to pay for their propaganda machines to snow undereducated American populace. And I did leave the cradle of conservatism, the US bible belt, and Georgia to avoid heart attack listening to right wingers.


Oh Minerva....i wish you had included George Soros, the Hollywood weirdos and just for good measure, the US main stream media in your post.....


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## neddie (Jun 11, 2012)

NickZ said:


> Which in simple English means the tax load would be dumped on the middle class.
> 
> BTW those "loop holes" you talk about are a form of incentive. The US encourages people to take risks by having a lower capital gains tax. It has lower local funding by having tax free muni bonds.
> 
> ...


NickZ.....the tax load in fact would be carried by every single person who buys a new product at retail or pays for a service. If a buyer has the funds to buy a private jet, then good luck to him......he in fact would be putting taxes into the 'kitty' that the average Joe couldn't( the sales tax in monetary terms on a 1Million $ jet would be more than on a piece of cheese!!!) With the Fair Tax there wouldn't be any capital gains tax or property tax There would be no point in having 'tax free Muni bonds' because there would be no taxes of any sort on any financial instruments.

The 'loop holes' i refer to are the ways that companies and individuals think up in order to avoid paying taxes. With the Fair Tax companies wouldn't be paying any taxes (unless it was something like company cars or an exec aircraft etc and only then they would only incur the sales tax) and individuals would be paying sales taxes on items they buy. 

I see you are in Italy......why don't you invite me over and we can chat about this over a bottle of Chianti with some bread and cheese.


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## neddie (Jun 11, 2012)

Minerva.909 said:


> This is the type of a language and the type of "thinking" I wanted to avoid moving back to Europe, alas neddie is considering Spain... sigh.
> 
> May I ask what are you looking for in Spain, neddie? Spain, like other PIGS, made a lot of mistakes in handling their economic development. But it is not a banana republic and hopefully never will be. So what attracts to it a person like you?
> 
> If you think Spais is less of a welfare state than US is, you are sorely mistaken. Spain is Europe, after all.


Firstly, look for my response to the 'brood mare' thing in my reply to mrypg9

As far as Spain, PIGS, the EU etc. etc. is concerned, i think the whole EU concept was/is wrong or even a 'con'. When it was first proposed i was most skeptical and said so in public on many occasions. To me each country had it's own language, culture, history, customs and even level of industry/commerce and so to think that they could simply be 'lumped together' was rather naive. Heavens, just look at what the Catalans want to do, look at the history of Ireland etc.

Right now the PIGS can not do what they may want to do......the bosses in Brussels together with the IMF and possibly to a lesser extent Germany, are dictating what they should do. I am not an economist or any kind of expert but i only see the breakup of the EU as the solution.

You ask,"So what attracts to it a person like you?" I first went to Spain as a 
young guy about 45 years ago ( after having studied in England for four years) looking for adventure and ended up door to door selling in the country. I have since been back on four occasions, the last being six years ago when i took my daughter (who was studying Spanish in high school at the time) for a taste of Spain and to hear the language first hand. I have enjoyed the people, the food, some of the music and the way of life. As a 'seasoned citizen' i would be quite content to see out my life in the country. 

Regarding welfare,Spain (and the rest of Europe) _may_ be ahead of the US at the moment but the US is catching up faster than most Yanks will admit. It may be too late to turn things around because just about 50% of working Americans don't pay any income tax........and that means that the party that dishes out the welfare gets the votes


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## neddie (Jun 11, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> In which case I guess you must deplore the fact that a large amount of money has gone directly from the U.S. taxpayer to the armaments and aerospace industries....an example of state support to private industry unrivalled in Europe.
> 
> Your simplistic neo-liberal view of economic theory has left the U.S. with pockets of poverty, crime and deprivation unknown in Europe. Your political class has been emasculated and power handed over to the judiciary which has resulted in the politisation of law and compromised the impartiality of your judiciary.
> Your culture of rights has resulted in low-intensity civil war between blacks, gays, women....
> ...


mrypg9.......you have too much in your posting to reply to but i am going to respond to two items.

Regarding the 'brood mare' paragraph, for good order i will use different language but at the same time say that the point i wanted to get across remains the same .........I firmly believe that it is not the roll of government to take money from tax payers and give it to a lady, who due to her own decisions and poor judgement, decides to have any number of children that she can not afford to rear and thereby expect the government (ie the taxpayer) to bale her out. In the US, in most cases that type of lady also gets subsidized housing, food stamps, medical and more, all of which is funded by the tax payer but dished out by the government.....it makes the government seem caring:confused2: She should either turn to relatives, a religious organization or charity for help.......or most importantly.......don't have a child you can't afford to start with!!!! Sounds like a logical solution and every one benefits..

The second item.......your posting sounded so angry and bitter.....your poor keyboard!!! I hope to be in Spain sometime next year and i would be delighted to meet up for an exhilarating chat and exchange of ideas. A bottle of Rioja and a cocida Madrileno sounds good to me


BTW, massive cut backs in military spending are planned for the end of the year which means massive layoffs which means more borrowing from the Chicoms in order to pay 'unemployment'. The US will soon be worse of than Greece...and then what ??????


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

neddie said:


> mrypg9.......you have too much in your posting to reply to but i am going to respond to two items.
> 
> Regarding the 'brood mare' paragraph, for good order i will use different language but at the same time say that the point i wanted to get across remains the same .........I firmly believe that it is not the roll of government to take money from tax payers and give it to a lady, who due to her own decisions and poor judgement, decides to have any number of children that she can not afford to rear and thereby expect the government (ie the taxpayer) to bale her out. In the US, in most cases that type of lady also gets subsidized housing, food stamps, medical and more, all of which is funded by the tax payer but dished out by the government.....it makes the government seem caring:confused2: She should either turn to relatives, a religious organization or charity for help.......or most importantly.......don't have a child you can't afford to start with!!!! Sounds like a logical solution and every one benefits..
> 
> ...


Not angry or bitter at all. But disappointed that you evaded a reply to my points. You put forward your views and in part in immoderate terms, I replied with mine. It's called debate!!

The only one you dealt with, the welfare question, I have some sympathy with but I find it odd that you concentrate on the role of the female in producing children. As I remember, a male plays some part in the process.....so why focus on the woman?? 

But whilst agreeing that the welfare bill is too high and that many people -men too - make bad choices...why not consider why this problem has become so huge?

Your free market policies glorify the importance of individual choice. You elevate choice over social cohesion, over narrowing the gap between rich and poor...as you say, if you can afford a private jet, go for it.
So why the surprise that the poor also exercise choice? Choice to have more children....to become substance addicted...After all, in the 'me' society, who's to say which are bad choices?

It is no accident -or surprise - that single parenthood, divorce, substance abuse and crime and social breakdown in general go hand in hand with unregulated fre markets. Go figure.

I think you confuse anger and bitterness with anger and indignation. For decades the U.S. has exploited its global power to interfere in the affairs of other nation states -Chile, Iraq,Vietnam, Cuba and to put money behind 'favoured' i.e. U.S. friendly candidates in elections all over post-Communist Europe. It supports the apartheid state of Israel and by its influence over the global capital markets directs the political and economic affairs of nation states.
It has exported its junk culture world-wide, suppressing and suffocating national cultures. 

You may not be aware of the extent of anti-American feeling that exists this side of the 'pond'. Much of it is exaggerated, much deserved.

And for the record, I feel much the same about socialism and the Soviet Empire as was.
I am a European social democrat and proud of it.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> In which case I guess you must deplore the fact that a large amount of money has gone directly from the U.S. taxpayer to the armaments and aerospace industries....an example of state support to private industry unrivalled in Europe.


In particular the aerospace industry where government subsidies enabled Boeing to offer El Al airline 707s for free ("you only pay for spares") to seal a deal when the airline actually wanted VC10s and the UK could not afford to compete with giveaways.



mrypg9 said:


> Your simplistic neo-liberal view of economic theory has left the U.S. with pockets of poverty, crime and deprivation unknown in Europe. Your political class has been emasculated and power handed over to the judiciary which has resulted in the politisation of law and compromised the impartiality of your judiciary.
> Your culture of rights has resulted in low-intensity civil war between blacks, gays, women....


Because the "democratically" elected politicians are in the pay of their sponsors - big business, banks and insurance companies who, in turn, really run the USA.




mrypg9 said:


> By a 'whole range of services' common in Europe, although damaged by the politics you espouse, I mean decent housing, health care, education and quality public spaces....parks, common land, museums, galleries. These, especially the latter, must be provided by local or national government since they provide no opportunity for profit for an entrepreneur. But since many U.S. cities are virtual no-go areas for pedestrians due to high crime levels I guess you won't understand why we Europeans love our parks and open spaces where communal life can freely flourish.


Typical right wing conservatism as espoused by "that woman" and most Republicans who hate the idea of supporting anybody who is less favourably placed than themselves, hence their rubbishing and attempting to destroy the healthcare set up by the current administration.

"U.S. cities are virtual no-go areas for pedestrians" - you omit the American obsession with cars - there are no f*ing pavements (sidewalks) to walk on in many cities outside the gloomy skyscraper farms.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Ye gods!! I am so glad I'm not interested in politics - you all sound incredibly miserable - banging on about what's wrong with everything.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> Ye gods!! I am so glad I'm not interested in politics - you all sound incredibly miserable - banging on about what's wrong with everything.


The sad truth is that the world is in a very unhappy state.....Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, the massive unemployment in Spain..


Most of us posting here are happy and comfortable but imo it's wrong to live in your bubble, even if there's not much you can do to make things better.


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