# A Simple Question



## Greytop (Nov 5, 2011)

One thing that has always amazed me and confused is the apparent acceptance of a 25% unemployment rate in Spain and nearly 50% among the young. Even through the good times the rate was above 20% I have not visited Spain much but visit Tenerife, which has a 30% unemployment rate, twice a year. although I know Tenerifeans do not really consider themselves Spanish!!

I know that in many countries in Europe, probably including the UK there would be civil unrest with riots on the streets with such unemployment rates!! However whenever I go to Tenerife, the people seem happy, I do not see that much poverty, I don't see so many slum dwellings and there seems to be a generally laid back, happy atmosphere! Sure there are many derelict buildings and half built properties, perhaps the only indication that all is not well.

How can this be is it because the out of work benefits are so good? Or do families help out much more than the UK? Or is it that the true unemployment rate is not really that high because of the black economy.

I would be very interested to hear people opinions as this has always perplexed me.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Greytop said:


> One thing that has always amazed me and confused is the apparent acceptance of a 25% unemployment rate in Spain and nearly 50% among the young. Even through the good times the rate was above 20% I have not visited Spain much but visit Tenerife, which has a 30% unemployment rate, twice a year. although I know Tenerifeans do not really consider themselves Spanish!!
> 
> I know that in many countries in Europe, probably including the UK there would be civil unrest with riots on the streets with such unemployment rates!! However whenever I go to Tenerife, the people seem happy, I do not see that much poverty, I don't see so many slum dwellings and there seems to be a generally laid back, happy atmosphere! Sure there are many derelict buildings and half built properties, perhaps the only indication that all is not well.
> 
> ...


there are virtually no benefits - families help each other where possible - atm it's not unheard of for 3 or even 4 generations to live in one dwelling relying on the pensions of the oldest 

here in my town, on the surface everything is fine

but scratch a little below that surface & you'll find real poverty - we have at least 2 soup kitchens & drop in centres & the mayor this week officially opened a charity store run but the baptist church, where everything, including food, will be directly distributed the the poor & homeless of the town several times a week.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

The sunshine makes people happy. On the surface a smile and a fiesta work wonders..... but underneath... Their unemployment benefit really is nowhere near as comprehensive as that in the UK, jobs are scarce and their infrastructure is starting to fail

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

People don't 'accept' unemployment and the hardship that all too often accompanies it. They are resigned to the drop in living standards that is likely to be the fate of Spain for several years to come. No-one 'accepts' it, though. Biut apart from the occasional ineffectual strike or protest march, what can people do?

Those who are more brutally honest perhaps admit that their standard of living which improved vastly over a comparatively short period of time was based on low productivity for higher wages and, of course, cheap and easy credit. In some ways no different from the situation in the UK where the largest recipients of state welfare benefits are not the unemployed but the working low-paid, whose wages are made up to something approaching a decent standard by tax credits, housing benefit, child benefit and other welfare payments.

The black economy forms a major part of all commercial activity here in Spain and the resulting non-payment to the state of the due income and purchase taxes makes the debt and deficit situation worse.

But defining a problem is a lot easier than solving it as we all know and currently there seems no light at the end of the tunnel for Spain.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Canary Islands unemployment benefits are for two years. 

The unemployment figures apparently do not reflect the true situation. The black economy in the Canary Islands is huge. I know of people that have never been officially employed but they have always worked.

Because of the prohibitive costs of the social security contributions for both employers and self employed, many cannot compete, so they go on the black, people are employed without contracts, paid cash in hand on a daily basis.

I had a builder look at a job I wanted doing, I needed a written estimate for the insurance, he told me that he was not "Alto" and that he did not give written estimates, nor did he ever sign anything, would not work other than for cash. This guy came highly recommended by a retired politician!!

Yes the Tinerfeños smile and are happy, however if you were to catch a ferry and travel to the South West you would discover the best kept secret in the archipelago, for the island of El Hierro is 75 miles and 75 years away from Los Cristianos.


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## BGD (May 2, 2012)

There's certainly a lot of people registered as unemployed but working "black" along the two main Costas. 

BUT we need to remember that those areas represent a TINY proportion of Spain.

Travel inland, to the villages and towns and cities that make up all the rest of the country, and the poverty is now getting very obvious.

Watch the Spanish TV news reports. Read the national or regional Spanish newspapers.
The economic recession has moved from numbers on computer screens to massive numbers of real redundancies, and a big reduction in what most people spend.
Shops shutting. Factories shutting. Service industries going bust. Restaurant businesses going bust. State spending on Benfits and projects massively slashed. Public Sector workers made redundant by the tens of thousand. It just keeps gathering pace.


And the worst thing is, we as a country here ain't seen nothing yet. 
We are nowhere near the bottom of the "trough" yet.
It's going to get a LOT worse in the coming couple of years at least.
Not good for the people of Spain. Not good at all.


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

BGD said:


> There's certainly a lot of people registered as unemployed but working "black" along the two main Costas.
> 
> BUT we need to remember that those areas represent a TINY proportion of Spain.
> 
> ...


Ah but is the glass half full, or half empty.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I can't recall many other countries having civil unrest issues over high unemployment, or even poverty.

Go to Rio de Janeiro. there is far more visible poverty there, but the people "seem" happy.

What generally causes civil unrest are the social cuts, and that will come in Spain, in my opinion.

As has been said already, this is the tip of the iceberg. The protests in Madrid against the privatisation of the health system are getting serious. The cuts are affecting everyone, unemployed or not. As this situation escalates so will the lack of tolerance from the population.

Despite this, the model in Greece (from which Spain is dead set on learning nothing) shows that no amount of protests, demonstrations, strikes, riots and even deaths will have any noticeable effect on the Government's decisions to follow the IMF/EU pressures to increase tax and cut benefits.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

And yet, I was in northern Spain in September, Santander was heaving, the bars were full, people were spending. The same earlier this year in Las Palmas de G.C. the shops were full of people with money to spend. No visible sign of recession in those locations.


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## Jumar (Mar 14, 2012)

We cycled the Camino de Santiago earlier this year and one of the things we noticed was that the north of Spain didn´t seem to be as affected as where we live in the south east. Away from the costas the economy didn´t mainly rely on building and the foreign/tourist trade and so the difference is not so obvious. I have no doubt that the whole of Spain is affected by cuts in public services but we didn´t "see" it.

We also went to a Chinese buffet style restaurant on Sunday afternoon in Pamplona and it was full, possibly 500 people eating out.

We know a few people personally who have lost their jobs but they just seem to get on with their lives and enjoy what they can (with family support of course).


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I think also the big difference is history and culture. In the UK, we moan, we are lead by our government and at the moment we are being crushed by it. We're not good at looking after ourselves and being self reliant, so we scuttle around worried and miserable waiting to be told everythings fine. Spain on the other hand has spent its recent history rebelling against a dictator (Franco), the people know how to survive and know they will. So they dont get too bogged down with the negatives or worry about money as we do in the UK - they just get on with their lives and living??? Maybe??

Jo xxxx


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## virgil (May 3, 2012)

Hepa said:


> Canary Islands unemployment benefits are for two years.
> 
> The unemployment figures apparently do not reflect the true situation. The black economy in the Canary Islands is huge. I know of people that have never been officially employed but they have always worked.
> 
> ...


And Los Cristianos is 75 miles away from the El Hierro vulcano


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Overandout said:


> I can't recall many other countries having civil unrest issues over high unemployment, or even poverty.
> 
> Go to Rio de Janeiro. there is far more visible poverty there, but the people "seem" happy.
> 
> ...


But 'social cuts' DO increase unemployment and poverty. Cuts in the public sector mean job losses. Spain has already seen massive cuts in public expenditure. Salaries frozen or reduced, benefits restricted even further, vcuts in spending on education and health. So it's not 'will come', it's 'has come' with no doubt more in the pipeline.

The reason that no European Government has produced an alternative plan for growth is simply that they are trapped, all of them, between a rock and a hard place. Revenue for much-needed growth from infrastructure projects and thence job creation can come from only two sources: taxation or borrowing. Such is the mobility of capital that taxing corporations and high earners runs the risk of capital flight to lower Corporation and personal tax regime countries. Borrowing for purposesnot approved by global markets will result in higher bond yields and make borrowing unfeasible.

What I fear is that any social protest will result in the rise of the far right backed by the military to power in Spain, Greece and perhaps France. Consider the history of Weimar Republic Germany. The majority of apolitical people want stability whoever provides it.

There is a lot of nostalgic support amongst Spanish people for the stability of the Franco regime, regardless of its heinous crimes.

We should heed the words of the Spanish philosopher Santayana who said that those who ignore the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them - or something along those lines.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Apart from those who are working on the black, there is a general standard of a higher contentment level..

What causes a lot of discontent in UK is politicians looking after their own and croneyism, while they waste money on non-essentials and cut back on people like the pensioners.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

virgil said:


> And Los Cristianos is 75 miles away from the El Hierro vulcano


No volcano here, all is now quiet. It would be nice if the rumbles started again, the volcanologists would arrive and spend money!!


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> But 'social cuts' DO increase unemployment and poverty. Cuts in the public sector mean job losses. Spain has already seen massive cuts in public expenditure. Salaries frozen or reduced, benefits restricted even further, vcuts in spending on education and health. So it's not 'will come', it's 'has come' with no doubt more in the pipeline.



I mostly agree with what you say, but you have missed to point of my post.

Of course social cuts cause unemployment, but my point is that the protests and manifestations are almost against the cutbacks which affect the service users, and not the unemployement that happens as a result.

And when I refer to "it will come" I mean a much heavier, visible and impacting level of public unrest as a cause of this situation.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2013)

Greytop said:


> One thing that has always amazed me and confused is the apparent acceptance of a 25% unemployment rate in Spain and nearly 50% among the young. Even through the good times the rate was above 20% I have not visited Spain much but visit Tenerife, which has a 30% unemployment rate, twice a year. although I know Tenerifeans do not really consider themselves Spanish!!
> 
> I know that in many countries in Europe, probably including the UK there would be civil unrest with riots on the streets with such unemployment rates!! However whenever I go to Tenerife, the people seem happy, I do not see that much poverty, I don't see so many slum dwellings and there seems to be a generally laid back, happy atmosphere! Sure there are many derelict buildings and half built properties, perhaps the only indication that all is not well.
> 
> ...


Those figures you are quoting are national governmental figures. A lot of work in Spain is seasonal. During late Spring until the end of summer, all the bars are open and many people are employed. In Andalucia, we are just coming to the end of the olive picking season. There are many people employed in the picking. The same with other agricultural products. My point here is, the figures you quoted do not alter much, yet during certain parts of the year there should be a seasonal drop, but there isn't. The government are aware of this.

Also, everything in Spain is regional. Andalucia supposedly has 30% unemployment, yet the village I live in is booming. Shops and bars opening all over the place. Some days you can't park your car, yet the local town 10k away looks empty.

Life is tough for many, but locals are growing their own produce to eat or sell. Land that lay dead has now been tilled and produce is growing. 

I admire the locals in our village, through everything they have their dignity and remain good natured. It is a privilege to live here.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Overandout said:


> I mostly agree with what you say, but you have missed to point of my post.
> 
> Of course social cuts cause unemployment, but my point is that the protests and manifestations are almost against the cutbacks which affect the service users, and not the unemployement that happens as a result.
> 
> And when I refer to "it will come" I mean a much heavier, visible and impacting level of public unrest as a cause of this situation.


No doubt. But as you have said with reference to Greece, nothing has changed as a result of the strikes and so on...only that we have seen the rise in support for Parties of the hard left and the hard right.

The fact is that you have to press people very very hard indeed before any serious widespread opposition can take place. 'Revolutions' are always imposed from above and there is no way of telling just how much genuine support either Lenin or Robespierre had...
And modern governments have much more brutal and sophisticated means of dealing with protest....usually supported by the majority who dislike violence on the streets...Therein lies the threat of a fascist revival.

When 25% are unemployed, 75% are not. They are in work. No way near the tipping point....yet.


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## virgil (May 3, 2012)

>>I know that in many countries in Europe, probably including the UK there would be civil unrest with riots on the streets with such unemployment rates!! However whenever I go to Tenerife, the people seem happy<< 

Um, I wonder if the climate could have anything to do with that.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> When 25% are unemployed, 75% are not. They are in work. No way near the tipping point....yet.


No. All those numbers are based on the active work force.

25% represents the amount of the active work force looking for work.

The worse the economy gets the more people give up looking for work. Imagine the people who've been without a job for years and have no hope of finding a job. Why look? If they aren't looking they aren't included in workforce. Or in the unemployment numbers.

Studies last year put the number of unemployed young Spaniards and Greeks at around 80%. A small number of these are in school or otherwise not available for work but the vast majority have given up looking for work.

The real issue is the long term unemployed. If you go a while without a job your skills decline. It's highly likely the majority of people in the 20-50 age group that are currently without a full time job are screwed.

When people realize just how bad their lives are going to be for the next twenty years then things will get scary.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

NickZ said:


> No. All those numbers are based on the active work force.
> 
> 25% represents the amount of the active work force looking for work.
> 
> ...



I doubt it. People nowadays on the whole have more to lose than their chains. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there won't be changes...I'm sure there will. 
I hope there will. But I doubt there will be any kind of violent revolution as hoped for by the far left and right.

My income has declined by 30% in real terms since 2006. I mean income-purchasing power. I guess I ought to be out on the streets with banners and so on, a real indignada anciana. The future doesn't look good for me either and I do hope to have around twenty years plus of life left to me.
After a lifetime of poltical activity including street protest my only activity now is to write nasty things in reply to posts on Daily Mail pieces -which they usually don't print - and paying subs to my Union and to PSOE here -against my will, I intended to cancel my DD but the bloody bank had already paid so I'll have to wait a year....


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