# Post Brexit holiday home owners, long term travelers - not a tax or residence thread



## paulhe (Jan 2, 2018)

I appreciate this is a forum for people considering living in Spain however for many people not wanting to do so the changes will be considerable for them if they own a holiday home or otherwise plan to spend a long time in Spain. There are varying figures as to the current number of UK citizens living in Spain, probably an accurate figure is difficult as some live under the radar. I do not know the figures for holiday home owners, including caravan owners but I imagine it is a substantial number. 

There will be many including myself who originally bought with a view to retiring in Spain. Brexit complicated many plans to do this and like me the plan to retire comes just too late to take advantage of the transitional arrangements. Many more would have simply made the decision never to live in Spain but to retire and spend large blocks of time in Spain.
living in the UK post Brexit and having a holiday home in Spain it is possible to make many trips and spread out the 90 days in 180 allowed, though flights will probably be more expensive and time spent driving through France will count. For people like myself travelling from afar many trips (even two) would be impracticable and out of financial reach.

So what does the 90 days in 180 mean for such people. The 180 days is rolling so at first blush it does appear that it would be quite easy if making many trips to still enjoy the holiday home as before. It starts getting difficult however if long periods are to be enjoyed. on another forum a poster posted that he was wanting to stay 4 months per year as he has been doing - not possible in one block of course. What about the owner who lets the property for the summer period and uses it in October for a month, goes home to uK for Christmas and return end January to stay until end April? Assuming he enters Spain (or France if driving) 3 October and leaves Schengen 31 October. He then returns 30 January and leaves 29 April. That is just ok - 90 days in 180 but he can't return (not even for urgent maintenance works on his property, friends birthday parties, weddings - even holiday home owners form good friendships with locals) until 28 july

If he usually takes his dog, cat or ferret then even more difficulties ensue. no more animal passports .

does anyone know if there are any discussions bilaterally to make things a little more flexible for tourist visas in such circumstances . I imagine some holiday owners would want to sell up?

paul


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Given that the uk government wont even reveal any information about its basic strategy for trade negotiations apart from the fact that they think they want it tariff free I dont think there is likely to be any information on essentially freedom of movement. In fact seeing as Brexit for many hinged on this I doubt the EU wish to allow UK nationals the right to live longer periods in Europe whilst UK ministers have recently mentioned the word deportation in respect to undesirable EU folk


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Free movement of persons | Fact Sheets on the European Union | European Parliament

EU nationals could already be deported. It was just very difficult. 



> Restrictions on the right of entry and the right of residence: Union citizens or members of their family may be expelled from the host Member State on grounds of public policy, public security or public health. Guarantees are provided to ensure that such decisions are not taken on economic grounds, comply with the proportionality principle and are based on personal conduct, among others.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Yes I know deportation is always legally possible. I was just wanting to emphasise that Brexiteers within the UK government are still keen to play the immigration card and that is hardly likely to make the EU grant special rights to UK nats if they feel their own citizens live under the threat of expulsion


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

I'm with kaipa on this. 

Why on earth would the EU or any individual country make it easier for Brits to holiday here just because they own property? I'm sure it would have to be a bilateral agreement & since so much has been said about curtailing the freedom of movement for EU citizens into the UK, I just can't see it. 


Arguably those who have been spending chunks of time of more than 90 days without registering have been bending the rules for EU citizens as it is.


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

paulhe said:


> does anyone know if there are any discussions bilaterally to make things a little more flexible for tourist visas in such circumstances.


The problem is that Spain is in the Schengen area so any relaxation there would automatically extend to the whole and therefore require their unanimous agreement and reciprocation by UK but with racist Bojo and his sycophantic minions so rabidly anti any suggestion of free movement there is a less than zero chance of that.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Before we all all make best guesses I suggest we wait until a final agreement is sorted. Then we will KNOW what will happen. 

A couple of days ago I was talking to the police chief (Comisario) of my local national police. He did not know what will happen as from 1st February


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## paulhe (Jan 2, 2018)

MataMata said:


> The problem is that Spain is in the Schengen area so any relaxation there would automatically extend to the whole and therefore require their unanimous agreement and reciprocation by UK but with racist Bojo and his sycophantic minions so rabidly anti any suggestion of free movement there is a less than zero chance of that.


no, France already offer a long term holiday visitors visa from 3 months (beyond Schengen) to 12 months 

https://france-visas.gouv.fr/en_US/web/france-visas/long-stay-visa

So why not ?

Paul


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

kaipa said:


> Yes I know deportation is always legally possible. I was just wanting to emphasise that Brexiteers within the UK government are still keen to play the immigration card and that is hardly likely to make the EU grant special rights to UK nats if they feel their own citizens live under the threat of expulsion


Not sure why you would think the ability for Brits wouldn't include the risk of deportation? 

Many of the EU countries aren't 100% happy with the current freedom of movement led by France. 

The income requirements for residence came from French pressure on the EU. Spain was the last EU country (if we ignore the UK ) to implement those rules. 


The French have been demanding the UK bring in a national ID card for decades because they think the UK is too lax on immigration.


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## Tigerlillie (Apr 7, 2015)

paulhe said:


> no, France already offer a long term holiday visitors visa from 3 months (beyond Schengen) to 12 months
> 
> https://france-visas.gouv.fr/en_US/web/france-visas/long-stay-visa
> 
> ...


So does Spain, it is called a non lucrative visa and is valid for 1 year with the possibility to renew and comes with the condition that you have the means to support yourself and health care insurance.

The visa for France only enables you to enter France, once there you have to apply for a 'carte de sejour visiteur' and there are also conditions attached to that ie you have to have the resources to support yourself for that year plus health care insurance.

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F302



> Si vous êtes étranger et souhaitez séjourner en France plus de 3 mois en tant qu'inactif,* vous pouvez obtenir une carte de séjour visiteur.* Cette carte vous est délivrée sous conditions de ressources si vous vous engagez à ne pas travailler en France





> Si vous êtes étranger et que vous souhaitez venir en France pour une durée supérieure à 3 mois, vous devez détenir un visa de long séjour valant titre de séjour (VL-TS) mention visiteur.
> 
> Vous êtes concerné si vous êtes étranger (sauf européen ou algérien).
> 
> ...


And even if you only want to stay for 4/5 months you have to prove your income for the whole year.

It's not quite as easy as you seem to think.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

After the transition period the UK has made it clear that free movement will end. All EU nationals will be treated as other 3rd country nationals. Immigration will be conducted on a point system favouring those persons with academic qualifications seen as beneficial to the uk. Middle income Spanish, Polish will not be able to reside in the UK for more than 3 months where they will regarded as visitors not residents ( unless they fulfil very high financial requirements). The EU will equally apply a reciprocal arrangement with UK nationals.
England decided to take the UK out of the union in the belief that there are more advantages than disadvantages. The opportunity for ordinary folk to live in Europe was deemed not worth as much as national identity and sovereignty. So somewhere along the line there will be things that disappoint people and I am afraid using your holiday property when you like and for as long as you like is one of the prices that will be paid.


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## Tigerlillie (Apr 7, 2015)

kaipa said:


> After the transition period the UK has made it clear that free movement will end. All EU nationals will be treated as other 3rd country nationals. Immigration will be conducted on a point system favouring those persons with academic qualifications seen as beneficial to the uk. Middle income Spanish, Polish will not be able to reside in the UK for more than 3 months where they will regarded as visitors not residents ( unless they fulfil very high financial requirements). The EU will equally apply a reciprocal arrangement with UK nationals.
> England decided to take the UK out of the union in the belief that there are more advantages than disadvantages. The opportunity for ordinary folk to live in Europe was deemed not worth as much as national identity and sovereignty.* So somewhere along the line there will be things that disappoint people and I am afraid using your holiday property when you like and for as long as you like is one of the prices that will be paid.*


I'm with you on this and cannot understand why some Brits think they are special and different rules will apply to or for them.

Once the UK has left The Union and the transition period is over UK nationals will become third country nationals and the rules for them will be the same as every other third country national.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

I've just moved lots of posts to this here https://www.expatforum.com/expats/s...tish-citizens-moving-rights-spain-brexit.html


This one is ONLY about holidaymakers - not about residents nor nationality


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

I've just a lot of posts to here https://www.expatforum.com/expats/s...tish-citizens-moving-rights-spain-brexit.html



This thread is about holidaymakers - not residency, nor nationality.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Ahh but the poster was talking of wishing to stay 4 months in which case he would no longer be a holiday maker but a potential resident/ illegal immigrant.!!


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## paulhe (Jan 2, 2018)

kaipa said:


> Ahh but the poster was talking of wishing to stay 4 months in which case he would no longer be a holiday maker but a potential resident/ illegal immigrant.!!


DO\

I am really disappointed we can't just have a discussion about the facts and what may be possible. Kaipa, you can check all my posts, none of which suggest any wish to go under the radar or do something illegal. 
I have demonstrated that a number of countries currently allow third countries (as UK will be) the right to stay longer than 3 months in 180 days, France being the most generous of them . What is the problem with lobbying for that sort of arrangement? I don/t want to sell up and have a holiday home in France,
Do you hav something constructive to add ?

In fact if you read my posts you will see i want to spend a block of 6 months (180 days) in Spain the rest in Aus when I retire. My examples were to alert/assist others who, being uk citizens and having asked similar questions on this and other forums , might wish to think how best to proceed
paul 

paul


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## paulhe (Jan 2, 2018)

oh, and by the way, you may live in Spain but do you have friends/family from UK who like to visit for long periods of time , perhaps with the dog, cat or ferret?


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## Tigerlillie (Apr 7, 2015)

paulhe said:


> DO\
> 
> I am really disappointed we can't just have a discussion about the facts and what may be possible. Kaipa, you can check all my posts, none of which suggest any wish to go under the radar or do something illegal.
> I have demonstrated that a number of countries currently allow third countries (as UK will be) the right to stay longer than 3 months in 180 days, France being the most generous of them . What is the problem with lobbying for that sort of arrangement? I don/t want to sell up and have a holiday home in France,
> ...


Well you will have to apply for a non lucrative visa then won't you, there are no special visa's or exemptions for post brexit Brits.

And as I explained in another post the visa for France only enables you to enter France not stay there, for that you have to apply for a visitors card.

In both scenarios, Spain or France, as a third country national you will also have to prove you have sufficient funds/income and health care insurance to get said visas.

These are the important words from the official french gov website I quoted in my previous post which I will translate for you:




> Si vous êtes étranger et que* vous souhaitez venir en France* pour une durée supérieure à 3 mois, vous devez détenir un visa de long séjour valant titre de séjour (VL-TS) mention visiteur.


*you wish to come to France*



> Si vous êtes étranger et *souhaitez séjourner en France* plus de 3 mois en tant qu'inactif, vous pouvez obtenir une carte de séjour visiteur. Cette carte vous est délivrée sous conditions de ressources si vous vous engagez à ne pas travailler en France


*wish to stay in France*

It's really not that difficult to understand.


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## paulhe (Jan 2, 2018)

Tigerlillie said:


> Well you will have to apply for a non lucrative visa then won't you, there are no special visa's or exemptions for post brexit Brits.
> 
> And as I explained in another post the visa for France only enables you to enter France not stay there, for that you have to apply for a visitors card.
> 
> ...


No, it is not, is it, I Wish to come to Spain , not stay in Spain. My friends who wish to come to France and not stay in France do enjoy that benefit, thanks


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## paulhe (Jan 2, 2018)

paulhe said:


> No, it is not, is it, I Wish to come to Spain , not stay in Spain. My friends who wish to come to France and not stay in France do enjoy that benefit, thanks


the French visa is a tourist /personal reasons visa


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## paulhe (Jan 2, 2018)

or, if you prefer, a visiteur visa = you might translate that for me as visitor visa ?


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

paulhe said:


> DO\
> 
> I am really disappointed we can't just have a discussion about the facts and what may be possible. Kaipa, you can check all my posts, none of which suggest any wish to go under the radar or do something illegal.
> I have demonstrated that a number of countries currently allow third countries (as UK will be) the right to stay longer than 3 months in 180 days, France being the most generous of them . What is the problem with lobbying for that sort of arrangement? I don/t want to sell up and have a holiday home in France,
> ...


I was informed on this forum in no uncertain terms that I was swinging the lead by staying some 5 months in Spain (and had my hand slapped). I knew that of course but many do it, including my neighbours, German and Norwegian snow birds etc who have the same restrictions.

You can stay in Florida for 6 months but have to apply for a B2 Visa. Taxes are the one to take care with too.


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## paulhe (Jan 2, 2018)

Isobella said:


> I was informed on this forum in no uncertain terms that I was swinging the lead by staying some 5 months in Spain (and had my hand slapped). I knew that of course but many do it, including my neighbours, German and Norwegian snow birds etc who have the same restrictions.
> 
> You can stay in Florida for 6 months but have to apply for a B2 Visa. Taxes are the one to take care with too.


But, if you can do so legally - this is not for work purposes but only as a tourist, with all the economic benefits that usually includes - why not? Worth arguing for, i think anyway?


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## paulhe (Jan 2, 2018)

of course you have to show you can support yourself but that is currently required of the schengen visa


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

But who would you argue with? Not easy to buck the system. Law is the law.


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## paulhe (Jan 2, 2018)

I am trying to garner some lobbying support


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I'm not in this situation myself but I have a lot of friends who are. As I understand it, the Spanish govenment will be able to set its own rules on this and they have already said they are sympathetic to holiday home owners who want to spend longer periods of the year here (can't remember where I read or heard it but it was about six months ago). 

The last thing they will want is to depress the property market in towns like mine, which is suffering chronic depopulation; Brits buy old delapidated houses the Spanish don't want, do them up using local builders, then come over for extended periods and spend money here. It's a very different situation from Britain, which most people believe has too many people in it (especially foreign ones) and there is an acute housing shortage.

A new pet passport scheme will almost certainly be in place by the end of the transition period. The UK already has arrangements with lots of non-EU countries.

So I wouldn't start worrying just yet.


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## paulhe (Jan 2, 2018)

maybe i need to create an association of holiday home owners who would like the flexibility of more holiday time in spain and who can also live with the horror of allowing the same to our Spanish friends


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## paulhe (Jan 2, 2018)

Alcalaina said:


> I'm not in this situation myself but I have a lot of friends who are. As I understand it, the Spanish govenment will be able to set its own rules on this and they have already said they are sympathetic to holiday home owners who want to spend longer periods of the year here (can't remember where I read or heard it but it was about six months ago).
> 
> The last thing they will want is to depress the property market in towns like mine, which is suffering chronic depopulation; Brits buy old delapidated houses the Spanish don't want, do them up using local builders, then come over for extended periods and spend money here. It's a very different situation from Britain, which most people believe has too many people in it (especially foreign ones) and there is an acute housing shortage.
> 
> ...



Thats a good post, more discussion please. i am not sure about the pet passport, this hasn't been one of the discussion points so far as i know or at least it has advanced in any way. i think this is a major issue 
paul


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## paulhe (Jan 2, 2018)

years ago (2003) we were coming back to uk , i had got my old job back in Suffolk and we hd two dogs, a kelpy cross border collie and a border collie (still with us 16.7 years). We had to give them a rabies shot then send blood of to UK then wait to see if sufficient antibodies showed up. One ok, one fail so we had to do that again . I think EU will have same rule 
paul


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

paulhe said:


> Thats a good post, more discussion please. i am not sure about the pet passport, this hasn't been one of the discussion points so far as i know or at least it has advanced in any way. i think this is a major issue
> paul


Lots of useful info here. 
https://www.animalcouriers.com/pet-travel-between-uk-eu-coutries-after-brexit/


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Lots of useful info here.
> https://www.animalcouriers.com/pet-travel-between-uk-eu-coutries-after-brexit/


This issue has been sitting around for quite some time now and the post transition period does not seem to have progressed at all - the requirements are hardly straightforward and it is *really *important to take note of and comply with the various timeframes.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

EverHopeful said:


> This issue has been sitting around for quite some time now and the post transition period does not seem to have progressed at all - the requirements are hardly straightforward and it is *really *important to take note of and comply with the various timeframes.


Also I-m not at all sure that it's on the list of things to address, be it the UK's list or the EU27's list.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

EverHopeful said:


> Also I-m not at all sure that it's on the list of things to address, be it the UK's list or the EU27's list.


Well, the Northern Ireland equivalent of DEFRA does seem to be getting its act together. I guess it's more of an issue for them, as they will have a land border with an EU country. But the same process will apply to the rest of the UK.

https://www.daera-ni.gov.uk/articles/pet-travel-europe-after-eu-exit


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Well, the Northern Ireland equivalent of DEFRA does seem to be getting its act together. I guess it's more of an issue for them, as they will have a land border with an EU country. But the same process will apply to the rest of the UK.
> 
> https://www.daera-ni.gov.uk/articles/pet-travel-europe-after-eu-exit


Well, I think that's how it's been for quite a while, but it is pretty complicated (at least the first time around) if the UK is an unlisted country. Frankly it's much easier to bring pets from non-EU countries that are listed countries and at the moment the UK is not listed. It seems to me that there are a lot of Brits in the EU who regularly travel backwards and forwards with their pets, or with new pets (sadly our pets don't live forever). 

It is something that has been raised on Expat Forum in the past (last post I saw was a fair while ago), yet it is still not sorted.


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## paulhe (Jan 2, 2018)

EverHopeful said:


> Well, I think that's how it's been for quite a while, but it is pretty complicated (at least the first time around) if the UK is an unlisted country. Frankly it's much easier to bring pets from non-EU countries that are listed countries and at the moment the UK is not listed. It seems to me that there are a lot of Brits in the EU who regularly travel backwards and forwards with their pets, or with new pets (sadly our pets don't live forever).
> 
> It is something that has been raised on Expat Forum in the past (last post I saw was a fair while ago), yet it is still not sorted.


I agree it is a massive issue, people have become so used to bringing their pets and the pet passport was/is for now a blessing. 
paul


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

paulhe said:


> I agree it is a massive issue, people have become so used to bringing their pets and the pet passport was/is for now a blessing.
> paul


The real problem is associated with the UK potentially being an unlisted country. It's easy if when travelling to and from a listed country outside the EU, amazing as that may seem.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

A Spanish friend who lives in New York takes her dog to Spain a couple of times per year. We took two dogs to Florida for 6 months with no problems. Wouldn’t do it again though, traumatic for the dogs. 

I don’t understand why this could not be sorted quickly when everything is in place. Problem is/was that no one thought we would actually leave.


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## ShoulIStayOrShouldIGo (Oct 22, 2019)

paulhe said:


> I appreciate this is a forum for people considering living in Spain however for many people not wanting to do so the changes will be considerable for them if they own a holiday home or otherwise plan to spend a long time in Spain. There are varying figures as to the current number of UK citizens living in Spain, probably an accurate figure is difficult as some live under the radar. I do not know the figures for holiday home owners, including caravan owners but I imagine it is a substantial number.
> 
> There will be many including myself who originally bought with a view to retiring in Spain. Brexit complicated many plans to do this and like me the plan to retire comes just too late to take advantage of the transitional arrangements. Many more would have simply made the decision never to live in Spain but to retire and spend large blocks of time in Spain.
> living in the UK post Brexit and having a holiday home in Spain it is possible to make many trips and spread out the 90 days in 180 allowed, though flights will probably be more expensive and time spent driving through France will count. For people like myself travelling from afar many trips (even two) would be impracticable and out of financial reach.
> ...


I do believe that was me. It seems we are in similar-ish boats regarding the current situation. Though I do not own a property in Spain. I just have a 'long-term' rental commitment until at least October 2020.

With the British public (albeit only 46% of those that voted) electing a known pathological liar for the next 5 years at least, I suspect us Brits (and others) won't be getting any clarity any time soon.

Regarding the making many trips. I know that people don't really seem to care that much about the environment and the short answer that someone would give is JUST STAY AT HOME. But Brexit is obviously going to make things worse. Whereby my carbon flying footprint would be limited to two 3 hour flights a year - to and from Spain - To make it worthwhile the 90 on 180 day thing would mean AT LEAST doubling that.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I agree. It is seldom mentioned here but the idea of flying to and fro rarely gets evaluated here. It is as though issues concerning climate change exist in a different part of our everyday lives. People construct elaborate living arrangements involving weekly flying without ever considering the notion of collective responsibility. And yet in the last year in Murcia 2 huge periods of flooding have done untold damage to many uk expats properties yet no one suggests the slightest link between changing weather patterns and their own lifestyle choices.


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## b0ll0cks-to-brexit (Oct 25, 2019)

"Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise."


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