# What are my EU possibilities with a German skilled worker residency permit or full residency permit?



## TP94

Hi everyone,

I've been working in Berlin since January 2020 and living here since October 2019, I have two non-EU citizenships. As a skilled worker (I'm a reporter for an international news agency), I'm supposed to get my Niederlassungserlaubnis für Fachkräfte in 2 years so in early 2024 and the full residency permit in 2025.

A few months ago, I spoke to an attorney who said that after 4 years of living and working in Germany as a non-EU person, you can be granted an EU card enabling you full working rights within EU countries but I could not find anything to confirm that. Is it after 4 years or after 5 years? Can it be shortened? I need some clarification on this, I'm getting a lot of contradictory information. I would like to work in another EU country but don't know how quickly or how soon I'll be able to do that in my current situation.


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## Bevdeforges

TP94 said:


> A few months ago, I spoke to an attorney who said that after 4 years of living and working in Germany as a non-EU person, you can be granted an EU card enabling you full working rights within EU countries but I could not find anything to confirm that. Is it after 4 years or after 5 years? Can it be shortened? I need some clarification on this, I'm getting a lot of contradictory information. I would like to work in another EU country but don't know how quickly or how soon I'll be able to do that in my current situation.


I think what the attorney is referring to is the EU "Blue card" - which is distinctly an option, however the individual EU countries apply the relevant regulations on this a bit differently. You may want to check the EU site for information on the blue card and its use: Essential information

There may also be some transferability of rights if you have a "permanent resident" status (i.e. have lived in your host country for at least 5 or more years) - but I think that varies a bit more from one EU country to the next.


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## TP94

He couldn't have refered to an EU Blue Card, I don't have the salary required to be eligible for any Blue Card.


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## *Sunshine*

TP94 said:


> A few months ago, I spoke to an attorney who said that after 4 years of living and working in Germany as a non-EU person, you can be granted an EU card enabling you full working rights within EU countries but I could not find anything to confirm that. Is it after 4 years or after 5 years? Can it be shortened? I need some clarification on this, I'm getting a lot of contradictory information. I would like to work in another EU country but don't know how quickly or how soon I'll be able to do that in my current situation.


You need a different lawyer.

The DA-EU requires a minimum of 5 years and does *NOT* grant automatic full working rights across the EU.


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## TP94

*Sunshine* said:


> You need a different lawyer.
> 
> The DA-EU requires a minimum of 5 years and* does NOT grant automatic full working rights across the EU*.


What does then besides an EU passport (citizenship) when you're non-EU?


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## *Sunshine*

TP94 said:


> What does then besides an EU passport (citizenship) when you're non-EU?


I don't really understand your question. 

If you want Freedom of Movement, you need an EU citizenship. 

The requirements for an DA-EU can be found in §9a AufenthG.

Ireland and Denmark have opted out of this treaty and you'll need to contact the country where you'd like to work to determine what benefits (if any) they grant holders of an DA-EU.

The German requirements for TCN from other countries who hold this permit are laid out in §38a AufenthG.


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## TP94

What about the unbefristet niederlassungserlaubnis from Germany when it comes to working in other EU countries? 

My question is whether there is a way to get full working rights across the EU based on merit (aka how long you've lived in a EU country + other requirements like no criminal record, language proficiency etc.) through some kind of residency permit after 4-5 years? Is there another way to move to another EU country besides waiting for years to get an EU (German in this case) citizenship?


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## *Sunshine*

TP94 said:


> What about the unbefristet niederlassungserlaubnis from Germany when it comes to working in other EU countries?


The German NE issued under §9 AufenthG is a permanent residence permit for GERMANY. This permit gives you rights *only* in Germany.

I explained the DA-EU in my previous post.

There are special rules for certain groups of foreigners, for example Blue Card holders, however, even the benefits for this group is in reality of not much use in most circumstances. 

You seem to want the advantages of an EU citizenship.


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## Bevdeforges

TP94 said:


> Is there another way to move to another EU country besides waiting for years to get an EU (German in this case) citizenship?


I think you'll find that most EU countries have their own rules for the extent to which a "long-term" resident of another EU country gets any sort of special preference in immigration. The EU has directives regarding the non-EU family members of an EU citizen. But I don't believe they have any real jurisdiction regarding how the member states handle non-EU nationals who have residence in a single EU state. (At least I can't find anything on the europa.eu website.)


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## *Sunshine*

TP94 said:


> Is there another way to move to another EU country besides waiting for years to get an EU (German in this case) citizenship?


BTW, if you really want to move, why don't you first look into the requirements for a work visa for your preferred destination? 

Many third country nationals delay moving based on incorrect assumptions of potential rights they could receive by staying here longer.


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## TP94

*Sunshine* said:


> BTW, if you really want to move, *why don't you first look into the requirements for a work visa for your preferred destination?*
> 
> Many third country nationals delay moving based on incorrect assumptions of potential rights they could receive by staying here longer.


I've already done that ages ago, the thing is as a non-EU person no one outside of Germany will hire me because non-EU nationals come in last after local nationals and other EU nationals.


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## TP94

Bevdeforges said:


> I think you'll find that most EU countries have their own rules for the extent to which a "long-term" resident of another EU country gets any sort of special preference in immigration. The EU has directives regarding the non-EU family members of an EU citizen. But *I don't believe they have any real jurisdiction regarding how the member states handle non-EU nationals who have residence in a single EU state. (At least I can't find anything on the europa.eu website.)*


I know, that's part of the problem: I can't seem to get clear answers.


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## *Sunshine*

TP94 said:


> as a non-EU person no one outside of Germany will hire me because non-EU nationals come in last after local nationals and other EU nationals.


This is the standard obstacle for unskilled and semi-skilled TCN.

Depending where you want to live, even an DA-EU won't help you.

For example, TCN with the foreign equivalent of an DA-EU who want to move to Germany are also subject to the _Vorrangprüfung_ for the first year after they move to Germany (this is set out in §38a see above), which makes it very difficult for unskilled workers who don't speak German to move to Germany.



TP94 said:


> I know, that's part of the problem: I can't seem to get clear answers.


You need to pose clear questions if you want clear answers. 

Where do you want to work?


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## TP94

I am not unskilled or semi-skilled TCN. What is a DA-EU? I have never heard that term before. I work, I pay taxes for two years already and I'm learning German. I was never subject to the Vorrangprufung, didn't need to be.

I want to work outside of Germany eventually, where exactly is not something I want to share here.


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## *Sunshine*

TP94 said:


> I am not unskilled or semi-skilled TCN.


Then what would you consider yourself? You don't qualify for a Blue Card, therefore, you don't fall into the highly skilled category. 



TP94 said:


> What is a DA-EU? I have never heard that term before.


DA-EU is the Erlaubnis zum Daueraufenthalt-EU. This is the German name for the permanent residence permit that grants some additional rights to TCN who want to move to other Member States and was established through the Council Directive 2003/109/EC of 25 November 2003.



TP94 said:


> I want to work outside of Germany eventually, where exactly is not something I want to share here.


Why not? No one here knows who you are and AFAIK no one has yet taken the time and effort to catalog the rules for each Member State.


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## Bevdeforges

The procedure in most of the EU countries I've had to deal with is that to get a visa with working privileges you need to first find a job in the country and then your employer-to-be has to get some sort of work authorization or a work permit to justify hiring a third country national over a local national or EU national who can use their Freedom of Movement rights. 


TP94 said:


> as a non-EU person no one outside of Germany will hire me because non-EU nationals come in last after local nationals and other EU nationals.


That's how it is most places - whether in the EU or not. First dibs goes to local nationals unless the job is in an area where certain skills are in great demand and there simply aren't the appropriate candidates in the work force. (Hence the reason for the high salary and technical skills qualifications that is part of the EU Blue Card requirements.) Getting work authorization for a non-EU national is a long and arduous process for the employers in most EU countries - for a reason (i.e. to try to encourage employers to hire local folks who need the job). 

Here in France, if you were hired on a work permit, you're limited to working for the employer who "sponsored" you for the first several years. Even with a "long-term resident" card, you simply gain the right to move jobs/employer within France. If you want to change countries within the EU, it's up to you to convince a potential employer in your target country that you're worth the extra effort needed to hire someone from outside the EU. Now, if after however many years, you apply for and get nationality in your host country, you are then entitled to the EU Freedom of Movement benefits, like not needing a work permit to move country.


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## TP94

*Sunshine* said:


> Then what would you consider yourself? You don't qualify for a Blue Card, therefore, you don't fall into the highly skilled category.
> 
> 
> DA-EU is the Erlaubnis zum Daueraufenthalt-EU. This is the German name for the permanent residence permit that grants some additional rights to TCN who want to move to other Member States and was established through the Council Directive 2003/109/EC of 25 November 2003.
> 
> 
> Why not? No one here knows who you are and AFAIK no one has yet taken the time and effort to catalog the rules for each Member State.


The only reason I don't qualify for a Blue Card is because of my salary which doesn't meet the threshold set by the German authorities.

The Erlaubnis zus Daueraufenthalt-EU is what I would need then, now how do I get it and when can I get it is a whole other matter.

I don't want it to backfire later on so I'd rather keep a relatively low profile online for the timebeing. These are not easy issues to delve into.


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## TP94

Bevdeforges said:


> The procedure in most of the EU countries I've had to deal with is that to get a visa with working privileges you need to first find a job in the country and then* your employer-to-be has to get some sort of work authorization or a work permit to justify hiring a third country national over a local national or EU national who can use their Freedom of Movement rights.
> 
> That's how it is most places - whether in the EU or not.* First dibs goes to local nationals unless the job is in an area where certain skills are in great demand and there simply aren't the appropriate candidates in the work force. (Hence the reason for the high salary and technical skills qualifications that is part of the EU Blue Card requirements.) Getting work authorization for a non-EU national is a long and arduous process for the employers in most EU countries - for a reason (i.e. to try to encourage employers to hire local folks who need the job).
> 
> Here in France, if you were hired on a work permit, you're limited to working for the employer who "sponsored" you for the first several years. Even with a "long-term resident" card, you simply gain the right to move jobs/employer within France. If you want to change countries within the EU, it's up to you to convince a potential employer in your target country that you're worth the extra effort needed to hire someone from outside the EU. Now, if after however many years, you apply for and get nationality in your host country, you are then entitled to the EU Freedom of Movement benefits, like not needing a work permit to move country.


I know that, that's part of the problem for me. Everywhere outside of Germany within Schengen, this rule is strongly applied.

Not really, in North America it's a lot easier for instance for EU people to settle and find work than it is for North Americans to do the same thing in the EU.


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## *Sunshine*

Bevdeforges said:


> Getting work authorization for a non-EU national is a long and arduous process for the employers in most EU countries - for a reason (i.e. to try to encourage employers to hire local folks who need the job).


If we are talking about unskilled or semi-skilled workers I would agree with you. 

On the other hand it is relatively quick and easy for highly skilled foreigners who have skills that are actually needed here to obtain a permit as long as they can find an employer willing to offer them a position and adequately compensate them for their skills.


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## *Sunshine*

TP94 said:


> The only reason I don't qualify for a Blue Card is because of my salary which doesn't meet the threshold set by the German authorities.


Sorry, although you might be a skilled worker, you are not a highly skilled one. 

The Germans chose the lowest possible figure to base the calculations for a Blue Card and if you can't even meet the Blue Card salary in Germany, it is unlikely you'd have a chance in a country like Luxembourg.


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## ALKB

TP94 said:


> I know that, that's part of the problem for me. Everywhere outside of Germany within Schengen, this rule is strongly applied.
> 
> Not really, in North America it's a lot easier for instance for EU people to settle and find work than it is for North Americans to do the same thing in the EU.


 I think that's a myth.

But anyways, you need five years of residence for the Daueraufenthalt EU, as sunshine explained above. 

Have a look here:









Mobility with an EU long-term residence permit


An EU long-term residence permit enables you to enjoy the legal benefits of long-term resident status and have extended mobility rights in other EU Member States.




www.bamf.de


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## ALKB

TP94 said:


> The Erlaubnis zus Daueraufenthalt-EU is what I would need then, now how do I get it and when can I get it is a whole other matter.


Requirements:





__





§ 9a AufenthG - Einzelnorm






www.gesetze-im-internet.de


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## TP94

Cheers, thanks! ^^


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## Bevdeforges

*Sunshine* said:


> On the other hand it is relatively quick and easy for highly skilled foreigners who have skills that are actually needed here to obtain a permit as long as they can find an employer willing to offer them a position and adequately compensate them for their skills.


I guess I didn't express myself well. The point is that you have to find the employer first to offer you a job - and to do that, it's the employer who needs to jump through the hoops, bear the relevant expense of obtaining work authorization or a work permit, etc. Relatively easier for a highly skilled foreigner in a field that is acknowledged to be lacking in the host country, certainly, but it pays for the job applicant to consider the efforts the employer needs to make before they will consider a foreigner for a job offer.

What people tend to run into is the potential employer's decision not to bother with non-EU candidates in the first place - certainly not until they have gone for several months with no success in finding an acceptable candidate for the job.


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## *Sunshine*

Bevdeforges said:


> I guess I didn't express myself well. The point is that you have to find the employer first to offer you a job - and to do that, it's the employer who needs to jump through the hoops, bear the relevant expense of obtaining work authorization or a work permit, etc.


It is not a matter of you not expressing yourself properly, but rather of you not understanding how the process works in Germany. 

Employers in Germany do not have to pay any fees to the government for work permits. The foreign worker bears the cost of the residence permit, which is not even that high compared to other countries. 

When the employer is willing to offer an employment contract with a salary over the Blue Card threshold, no additional paperwork is usually required by the employer.


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## Bevdeforges

OK, but I was referring to the OP's desire to "transfer" his working privileges to another EU country. In several of them, it's the employer who needs to initiate the "work permit" process - so one reason that many employers won't consider applications from non-EU nationals. For those not in Blue Card eligible salary or skills areas, the alternative is to include information on your CV/resumé or cover letter that emphasizes what qualities or experience you bring that may be sufficiently unique or in short supply in the country in which you wish to work.


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## TP94

I first need to figure out if I can even leave Germany AND work elsewhere with a Daueraufenthalt EU but a non-EU passport which is why I'm going to talk to an immigration lawyer soon.


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## *Sunshine*

TP94 said:


> I first need to figure out if I can even leave Germany AND work elsewhere with a Daueraufenthalt EU but a non-EU passport which is why I'm going to talk to an immigration lawyer soon.


The answer to that question depends on the country where you want to work.

Did you bother to even read what I wrote in my previous posts? I told you how to figure this out in post #6. 

The info in your first post from the lawyer was incorrect (which you can verify if you take the time to carefully read the sources I provided) and a second appointment with a German lawyer is a waste of money.

If you really want to spend money on a lawyer, you need to contact one in the EU Member State where you want to work.


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## *Sunshine*

Bevdeforges said:


> OK, but I was referring to the OP's desire to "transfer" his working privileges to another EU country. In several of them, it's the employer who needs to initiate the "work permit" process - so one reason that many employers won't consider applications from non-EU nationals. For those not in Blue Card eligible salary or skills areas, the alternative is to include information on your CV/resumé or cover letter that emphasizes what qualities or experience you bring that may be sufficiently unique or in short supply in the country in which you wish to work.


Without knowing where the OP wants to work, it is impossible to make any assumptions regarding the ease of acquiring a work permit.


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## TP94

Normally speaking, excluding Ireland, the UK and Denmark, working with a EU permit in another EU country should be fairly straightforward, no? Unless they go through it using my non-EU passport even with a dauerhaft EU.


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## *Sunshine*

TP94 said:


> Normally speaking, excluding Ireland, the UK and Denmark, working with a EU permit in another EU country should be fairly straightforward, no?


Not necessarily. 

As I've repeatedly tried to (and obviously failed to) explain to you, the actual requirements vary greatly across Member States.

Good luck with your quest. Remember this thread in the future and update it with your progress.


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## TP94

The problem is then that not all of those members states (and non-member states like Norway, Iceland, Switzerland) have a clear explanation of what is and isn't required besides having a EU passport to work and live in their countries. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them don't even know about the EU permanent residency card, seems more like a German thing. 

I might not update it anytime soon, this is a long-term process that will stretch over the next 3-4 years at the very least.


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## Bevdeforges

*Sunshine* said:


> The answer to that question depends on the country where you want to work.


And as I think you said up thread a ways, the best approach is to consult the Embassy or visa site for the target country, and/or immigration experts in the target country. 


TP94 said:


> The problem is then that not all of those members states (and non-member states like Norway, Iceland, Switzerland) have a clear explanation of what is and isn't required besides having a EU passport to work and live in their countries.


And the other problem is that you don't have an EU passport. It would be easier if you were married to a person holding either an EU passport or, especially a passport for your target country. But then you would still have to meet the requirements for the spouse of an EU national or those of a spouse visa for the country of your EU spouse's nationality. 

Most countries don't issue "clear" explanations of their visa requirements simply because they reserve the right to do their own investigation of your circumstances and reasons for wanting to be admitted to the country, especially if you expect to be granted work privileges.


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## TP94

I suspect not having an EU passport will always be that big of a problem that even a Dauerhaft-EU might not be enough to save me. And by the time I get a German passport I'll be in my mid 30s...

I just want to work in a media job, I don't have any special thing going for me in other EU countries other than I speak 4 languages including 3 European languages fluently.


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## Bevdeforges

TP94 said:


> I speak 4 languages including 3 European languages fluently.


Then make that a prominent part of your CV when looking for work. It definitely helped when I was looking for work in Europe from the US.


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## ALKB

TP94 said:


> The problem is then that not all of those members states (and non-member states like Norway, Iceland, Switzerland) have a clear explanation of what is and isn't required besides having a EU passport to work and live in their countries. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them don't even know about the EU permanent residency card, seems more like a German thing.
> 
> I might not update it anytime soon, this is a long-term process that will stretch over the next 3-4 years at the very least.


It's not a German thing at all, it's an EU thing, we had forum members with long term EU permits from Greece, Czech Republic, France, etc. on the forum.

Nevertheless, work rights for non-EEA nationals are a national matter for the most part.

Maybe concentrate on relocating to an EU country that has a quicker naturalization process? (And also allows you to keep existing citizenships?) I hear residency requirements for naturalization in Malta are relatively short.


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## ALKB

TP94 said:


> And by the time I get a German passport I'll be in my mid 30s...


Right. 

And then you'll be too old to move internationally?


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## TP94

ALKB said:


> Right.
> 
> And then you'll be too old to move internationally?


Not "too old" per se but at a time where most people are focused on having a family, I will be focused on experiencing things I could have experienced in my early 20s if only I was EU back than. Let's see how many companies in France, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Holland etc. want to hire a 33 year old for instance plus who knows what our world will look like in 4-5 years, it's as unpredictable as ever.


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## Bevdeforges

TP94 said:


> Not "too old" per se but at a time where most people are focused on having a family, I will be focused on experiencing things I could have experienced in my early 20s if only I was EU back than.


Not everyone is on the same time schedule as you seem to be. I only moved to the EU in my early 40s - and actually, I think I have had a better experience here due to the relative maturity I was able to bring to the situation. (Not that I didn't do some really stupid things in those first few/several years here.) The key thing is to do what you can to create your own opportunities - and to recognize when to jump on something potentially worthwhile and when to hold back and bide your time.


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## ALKB

TP94 said:


> Not "too old" per se but at a time where most people are focused on having a family, I will be focused on experiencing things I could have experienced in my early 20s if only I was EU back than. Let's see how many companies in France, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Holland etc. want to hire a 33 year old for instance plus who knows what our world will look like in 4-5 years, it's as unpredictable as ever.


Early thirties seems ancient when looking at it from the POV of a twenty-something. Believe me, the view will change.

I am in my early fourties and I just changed careers completely, including getting a brand new qualification from scratch over the course of two years. I am now doing something very different to what I was doing in my twenties and thirties and I still have about 25 years of work life ahead of me.

I am curious as to what experiences you are barred from as an EU resident rather than an EU national. Nothing stops you from visiting France, Luxemburg, Switzerland or the Netherlands - your German residence permit is your Schengen visa, as you know.

I was actually living in Geneva, Switzerland in my early twenties and the majority of my colleagues and friends were non-Swiss, non-EU. They were doing the same things I was doing.


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## TP94

This isn't about visiting a EU country, this is about enjoying similar privileges as a EU national and not having to wait 5 or 10 years to get there in a world that's more dangerous and unpredictable than ever in the last 30 years at least.


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## *Sunshine*

TP94 said:


> I just want to work in a media job, I don't have any special thing going for me in other EU countries other than I speak 4 languages including 3 European languages fluently.


You have unfortunately chosen a very popular field in which there are too many local applicants chasing too few jobs. Many employers won't consider foreign applicants due to salary requirements (it is much easier to exploit EU citizens who can be paid the minimum wage). 

It is unlikely that you'll be able to meet the requirements for a highly skilled permit. If the German citizenship law is not changed soon, are you prepared to give up both of your non-EU citizenships?



TP94 said:


> I suspect not having an EU passport will always be that big of a problem that even a Dauerhaft-EU might not be enough to save me.


At least you are finally starting to understand what I've been trying to explain to you since by first post in this thread; if you want FoM, you need an EU citizenship. 

The best way to find positions in your field is to network. You also need to decide whether you're willing to put the time and energy into applying for positions for which you have a low chance of obtaining.

Although I work in a completely different field, I can empathise with your situation. I eventually gave up applying for the positions I really wanted when I realised that I didn't have a chance because I didn't have enough Vitamin B and got fed up wasting my time.


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## TP94

I am absolutely willing to give up both of my non-EU citizenships especially one which I've never asked to have and has caused me nothing but problems since I moved to Europe. I do think the German citizenship law will be changed but I would still give up at least one of my two non-EU citizenships regardless.

I don't much care for a highly skilled permit as in my case from what I read and from what you told me, the Dauerhaft-EU residency card seems to be what I need.


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