# "Big Society" Spanish version



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Would you volunteer to sweep the streets in your spare time to help your town or village pay off its debts?

Village volunteers working off debts | In English | EL PAÍS



> In Higuera de la Serena, a village in Badajoz province, Sunday is the longest working day of the week. Skipping the day of rest is not the only thing that people here do differently. Over 100 of the 1,041 residents of Higuera sweep the streets, trim the trees and fix the local fountain without charging a cent for it.
> 
> These drastic measures are the result of years of bad management, the locals say. Now, Higuera owes 800,000 euros _[mainly because of a retirement home built on the edge of the town that needs extra work done to meet new requirements.]_
> 
> ...


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

We already sweep our own bit of street, it's what is already done. As for paying off all that the alcalde has pocketed...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Would you volunteer to sweep the streets in your spare time to help your town or village pay off its debts?
> 
> Village volunteers working off debts | In English | EL PAÍS


Yes. Why not?
Although I would prefer that an unemployed person were paid to do the job. But if there's no money and no possibility of any then I'd grab a broom rather than see litter pile in the streets. Wouldn't you?


ADANA is already doing for free work the Ayto has a statutuory responsibility to do.
Shouild we leave dogs to die in the heat for some ideological objection?


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

As far as I am aware Nerja town hall has been employing unemployed folk for a couple of years now to tend to the gardens and keep the streets clean. Well done them I say...


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

thrax said:


> As far as I am aware Nerja town hall has been employing unemployed folk for a couple of years now to tend to the gardens and keep the streets clean. Well done them I say...


Yes, nearly all towns that. It means they can build up enough social security contributions to qualify them for unemployment benefit.

That's different from people volunteering to work without pay though.

It reminds me of a comment I heard recently on a comedy programme, talking about cuts in funding to the police in the UK: soon criminals will be doing community policing as part of their community service ...


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## gill556 (Dec 23, 2010)

I have been sweeping/weeding our street for the last 8 years and in all that time I have never seen anyone else with a broom in their hand. Our town hall have not swept our streets since they were elected whereas with the previous administration it was done every fortnight.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, nearly all towns that. It means they can build up enough social security contributions to qualify them for unemployment benefit.
> 
> That's different from people volunteering to work without pay though.
> 
> It reminds me of a comment I heard recently on a comedy programme, talking about cuts in funding to the police in the UK: soon criminals will be doing community policing as part of their community service ...


But we at ADANA work without pay -well, most of us - and have been doing so for over twenty years. If we stopped tomorrow, then the only consequence would be that dogs would die.

What in principle is wrong with people 'working' without pay? Do you think that all the voluntary associations in Spain, the UK and elsewhere should shut down immediately? 

Local authorities have certain responsibilities towards their citizens and their citizens pay local taxes to fund these services. 
But do we really want a state where nobody does anything unless there is financial reward at the end? 
Is there really no value whatsoever in citizens' voluntary work? Must everything be the responsibility of the local or national state?


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

Personally yes I would..
I sweep outside my place in Novelda as does every other housewife in the surrounding streets, plus they throw buckets of hot water with bleach over the cobbles then scrub.. 

When I lived in Scotland in a tiny village with a sandy beach we the villagers would do beach clean ups so that visitors could enjoy the beach. In all the years I lived there I never witnessed any environmental agency visiting, it was left up to us to keep it looking nice,


In an ideal world everyone would be employed but when there is no money to pay for street cleaning I would rather do it myself than live in a tip and moan about the mess.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

But this isn't a discussion about 'the nanny state'.

Its about a particular village in Extremadura where the council owes 800,000 euros to its suppliers and now has to face the consequences - by taking a Government loan, actually paying suppliers with this and spending not a cent on anything else.

The villagers are annoyed and rightly so. Their council has squandered funds on a state of the art retirement home which, although (perhaps) wanted by some, was not essential (to the villagers anyway).

So this is not annoyance at having to work together to get essential maintenance done, it is annoyance that the villagers have been placed in this position in the first place.
And it is yet another example of village councils not paying suppliers for services, which is leading, in many parts of Spain, to the situation when essential services are not being carried out.

But to answer the question:


> Would you volunteer to sweep the streets in your spare time to help your town or village pay off its debts?


I sweep the public walkway along the edge of our village every day (it runs over the canal like a kind of prom). And the reason I do this is because our dogs walk along it, so I want to make sure it is clean for anyone else walking there.
I don't sweep the street outside our house, because one of the ladies in the street insists sweeping the street is her job and swears at me if she sees me outside the house with a broom.

But I do what I do to help keep the village nice for the villagers. It is nothing to do with helping the local council.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> But we at ADANA work without pay -well, most of us - and have been doing so for over twenty years. If we stopped tomorrow, then the only consequence would be that dogs would die.
> 
> What in principle is wrong with people 'working' without pay? Do you think that all the voluntary associations in Spain, the UK and elsewhere should shut down immediately?
> 
> ...


I don't have a problem with what they are doing in Higuera, because it's an emergency situation and it's better to get out there with a broom than sit around complaining while the rubbish piles up.

There's nothing wrong with the voluntary sector doing what it does best, including services like ADANA. I don't think taxpayers' money should be spent on keeping unwanted dogs alive, especially when cuts are being made to health and social care for humans. 

But volunteers shouldn't be taking the place of paid employees as a routine cost-saving exercise. It might start off as a short-term emergency measure but it could end up like the UK, where librarians who have been made redundant are now being asked to keep libraries open by working without pay.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

I used this video about what was happening in Higuera in class in March! Not sure what took El País in English so long to report it!
Small Spanish villages face big budget woes - CNN.com
It's interesting 'cos you see the home for the elderly which was very poorly designed and which the village obviously didn't have the money for, reminding us of disused airport, museums and goodness knows what else.

As for picking up a broom myself, I've got no qualms about sweeping streets if it's necessary or if it's to help someone out, but it does grate when 
A) I've already paid for someone else to do it
B) The money, sorry MY money has been used for something else or has literally been stolen by someone who may well be my neighbour.
C) The person that was supposedly being paid for this is now either unemployed or not getting paid, while others do the work for free.
D) If I don't do it I'm making my own situation worse as I see my own environment deteriorate.
I guess the best solution is sweep up and shut up

Ana Botella, Mayor of Madrid, wanted to launch a programme where volunteers would work in libraries under the orders of librarians. This was supposed to start in March and last for 6 months. The administration say that without volunteers the libraries might have to close. So, are these socially aware politicians trying to keep public amenities open or are they doing worthy citizens out of a job??

PS I don't know if this scheme went ahead. What I do know is that according to the press they were inundated with possible volunteers


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> We already sweep our own bit of street, it's what is already done. As for paying off all that the alcalde has pocketed...


But in _*these*_ circumstances, what do you think? Is sweeping the street yourself going to better the situation or not?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

gill556 said:


> I have been sweeping/weeding our street for the last 8 years and in all that time I have never seen anyone else with a broom in their hand. Our town hall have not swept our streets since they were elected whereas with the previous administration it was done every fortnight.


No house owner sweeps any part of the street in our urba either. The roadsweeper comes around about once a month. As for the practise of dousing the pavement/ street with bleach - no thanks! What good does that do?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> No house owner sweeps any part of the street in our urba either. The roadsweeper comes around about once a month. As for the practise of dousing the pavement/ street with bleach - no thanks! What good does that do?


neither do we - the caretaker does that  & we pay community fees for it

in our town in general though, there are volunteer diving groups who clean up the coastline at the end of the season & also various others who clean up the walks between all the _miradores_ at least once a year


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> neither do we - the caretaker does that  & we pay community fees for it
> 
> in our town in general though, there are volunteer diving groups who clean up the coastline at the end of the season & also various others who clean up the walks between all the _miradores_ at least once a year


Well exactly. And what would you think if you paid the community fees, but the caretaker didn't get paid and then you were asked to clean them youself with the caretaker standing next to you?

Oh, and I pay the town tall to clean my street - once a month - if we're lucky.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

In my village in Asturias the town hall are rather fanatical about cleaning the streets so not an issue there.

In my Hampshire village a few years back we created the litter patrol. Two full time jobs to back up road sweepers and rubbish collection. And a great job they do. So no probs there.

If I lived in that spanish village I would like to see those involved in the idiotic plan and associated corruption out cleaning the streets. And I would pay the former street cleaners to beat them with sticks to guarantee a high standard. And I'd get the money by confiscating all property for those responsible.

Clean village, example set, no job losses, less corruption


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well exactly. And what would you think if you paid the community fees, but the caretaker didn't get paid and then you were asked to clean them youself with the caretaker standing next to you?
> 
> Oh, and I pay the town tall to clean my street - once a month - if we're lucky.


I'd be pretty furious if I paid the fees & the caretaker didn't get paid, didn't do the work & watched me do it! I'd be happy enough to do my patch though if the community fees were less & we all cleaned our bit of 'street' & he looked after the pool & garden (it's a gated urb)

for some reason the port area of our town is VERY well swept - the rest of the town doesn't seem to be :confused2:


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> But in _*these*_ circumstances, what do you think? Is sweeping the street yourself going to better the situation or not?


The ayuntamiento employs a small gang of people to do various works around the village - repainting the pedestrian crossings, walls and railings, etc, sweeping public areas (park, paseo, etc). 

Keeping the streets swept and clean of the usual detritus (dog poo, handbills, cigarette and sweet wrappers, etc) is something that has always been done by the householders as a matter of pride. The only thing I do object to is the old dears who will insist on getting on their hands and knees and polishing the 'sidewalk' tiles - some of them are like glass - and when it rains or they get dust on them (sahara days in particular) they are lethal. :crutch:

To be fair, our local taxes are not high and I saw the heliport being used for the first time today (shifted most of the dust and sand from the last sahara blow - chopper completely disappeared from view for a couple of minutes - perhaps they are also going to use this as the way to clean the streets as well!)


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> I'd be pretty furious if I paid the fees & the caretaker didn't get paid, didn't do the work & watched me do it! I'd be happy enough to do my patch though if the community fees were less & we all cleaned our bit of 'street' & he looked after the pool & garden (it's a gated urb)
> 
> for some reason the port area of our town is VERY well swept - the rest of the town doesn't seem to be :confused2:


Yes, and that's the situation that these people are in. That's why I say it's sweep up and shut up. Another case of you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. There's not much point of folding your arms and saying "I've paid my taxes and I'm not going to sweep the road" 'cos it's just going to get full of crap, isn't it? On the other hand you've got cleaners employed by the town hall, who may or may not have been paid, and you're doing their work for them...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I don't have a problem with what they are doing in Higuera, because it's an emergency situation and it's better to get out there with a broom than sit around complaining while the rubbish piles up.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with the voluntary sector doing what it does best, including services like ADANA. I don't think taxpayers' money should be spent on keeping unwanted dogs alive, especially when cuts are being made to health and social care for humans.
> 
> But volunteers shouldn't be taking the place of paid employees as a routine cost-saving exercise. It might start off as a short-term emergency measure but it could end up like the UK, where librarians who have been made redundant are now being asked to keep libraries open by working without pay.


This is a pointless debate if it is restricted to specific instances and it has rightly evolved into one of principle. So it is about citizens' responsibility as well as paying people to do jobs. After all, the thread title refers to the 'Big Society' so it is clearly intended to be about a principle.

The principle is clear and simple: people should be employed to do certain jobs in and for the community. The question as to what jobs is another matter.
Money to pay people comes from citizens in the community. Perhaps they should be consulted as to what they would be prepared to do themselves and what they would prefer to pay for.
But when there is no money for whatever reason, you pick up your broom, work in your library....or nothing is done for the community.
As for funding dog rescue....do you really think that people would be happy to see the bloated stinking carcases of dogs littering the streets?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> The principle is clear and simple: people should be employed to do certain jobs in and for the community. The question as to what jobs is another matter.
> Money to pay people comes from citizens in the community. Perhaps they should be consulted as to what they would be prepared to do themselves and what they would prefer to pay for.
> But when there is no money for whatever reason, you pick up your broom, work in your library....or nothing is done for the community.


For me *this *is the principle that is clear - if I've paid to have the job done I don't want to then have to do it myself, plus have a member of my community at my side watching me do it, while they are unemployed!
Asking people what they want to spend their money on is a much better idea, and one that is happening in some communities, thanks to 15M...

But better than seeing the rot set in is to get to it and do it yourself I suppose


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> For me *this *is the principle that is clear - if I've paid to have the job done I don't want to then have to do it myself, plus have a member of my community at my side watching me do it, while they are unemployed!
> Asking people what they want to spend their money on is a much better idea, and one that is happening in some communities, thanks to 15M...
> 
> But better than seeing the rot set in is to get to it and do it yourself I suppose


The fact is that for whatever reason most communities have little money and have to make tough decisions about how to spend it. It's happening in the UK too.
We can debate endlessly whether people *should* be employed to do certain jobs but if there isn't the money the choice is stark and simple: volunteer or no service.
As for asking people what their local taxes should be spent on: it may be a new idea in some parts of Spain but in our area the Parties sent out excruciatingly detailed plans for service delivery which I doubt anyone read. They didn't need 15M to tell them to do that.
When I was involved in local politics in the UK we used to do regular door-knocking surveys to find out people's views as to how their Council Tax money should be spent - and not just at election time. When I suggested a spot of vox populi to my local PSOE branch during the last local election campaign they weren't impressed, maybe because the previous PSOE administration had squandered millions of euros of public money on unsustainable projects and sheer mismanagement...
The other thing about consulting the public is that the general public tends to hold fairly conservative and in many cases downright reactionary views about subsidising services they don't use or approve of.


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