# Moving To Spain



## caz (Sep 30, 2008)

We here so many nagative stories about Spain and people returning to the U.K.mY Husband + I have always planned to live in Spain when retired (which is soon) we don't have lots of money. We would just like to know what to expect, have things become far more expensive,are ther unexpected taxes, has the crime rate gone up 
with unemployment, and why are so many people returning after living there for so long.

Any answers would be appreciated

Thanks Caz:clap2:


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Spain is huge and it varies from region to region. Where I live El Hierro, crime is almosty unknown, people leave there cars unlocked with the engines running.

Apart from property, the cost of living is far cheaper than the U.K. and Iberian Spain.

Taxes are no problem, my govt. pension is taxed in the U.K., I have to complete an annual tax return here, however the tax office is within walking distance, so they do it for me.

Retirement is good in the Canary Island climate, no heating or air-conditioning needed, we have made many friends here.


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## Nugget_Hound (Jun 13, 2013)

I am looking for a long term rental in a rural area there are a lot more things to take in to account than I thought!!! NIE and minimum income / Healthcare being the main ones, I thought it would be easier , seems so easy for anyone and everyone to come to the UK without a job / skills , I have a regular income and would not want to claim benefits.

I thought there must be at least one benefit from being in the EU but doesnt seem like their is , good luck are you looking to rent or buy, If I had 10 grand I would buy a bit of land in the middle of nowhere and just get a caravan , there seems to be a lot of cheap deals on land!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

caz said:


> We here so many nagative stories about Spain and people returning to the U.K.mY Husband + I have always planned to live in Spain when retired (which is soon) we don't have lots of money. We would just like to know what to expect, have things become far more expensive,are ther unexpected taxes, has the crime rate gone up
> with unemployment, and why are so many people returning after living there for so long.
> 
> Any answers would be appreciated
> ...


:welcome:

Spain is still a wonderful place to live if you don't need to earn a living

providing you know you can live on your income you'll love it!


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## caz (Sep 30, 2008)

Nugget_Hound said:


> I am looking for a long term rental in a rural area there are a lot more things to take in to account than I thought!!! NIE and minimum income / Healthcare being the main ones, I thought it would be easier , seems so easy for anyone and everyone to come to the UK without a job / skills , I have a regular income and would not want to claim benefits.
> 
> I thought there must be at least one benefit from being in the EU but doesnt seem like their is , good luck are you looking to rent or buy, If I had 10 grand I would buy a bit of land in the middle of nowhere and just get a caravan , there seems to be a lot of cheap deals on land!


We would rent for a short time umtill we found the right area then buy

Thanks for your reply

Caz


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Nugget_Hound said:


> I am looking for a long term rental in a rural area there are a lot more things to take in to account than I thought!!! NIE and minimum income / Healthcare being the main ones, I thought it would be easier , seems so easy for anyone and everyone to come to the UK without a job / skills , I have a regular income and would not want to claim benefits.
> 
> I thought there must be at least one benefit from being in the EU but doesnt seem like their is , good luck are you looking to rent or buy, If I had 10 grand I would buy a bit of land in the middle of nowhere and just get a caravan , there seems to be a lot of cheap deals on land!


being in the EU means that you_ can_ come here, as long as you can support yourself - the financial & healthcare requirements are pretty low, really

if you weren't from the EU, the financial requirements would be prohibitive for most people - & the chances of getting a working visa seriously unlikely

EU citizens don't need a visa at all


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## Nugget_Hound (Jun 13, 2013)

Thanks Xabi , How does the healthcare system work over there, I dont use the health system because I live on vitamins and grow my own food , I am 41 non smoker , do you mind me asking how much you pay for healthcare , do you pay monthly / yearly or only when you use it? is it an insurance based system, Thanks


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## Ziggy99 (Sep 7, 2012)

I want to spend more than thre months at a time in the EU mostly Spain and France. I was born in the EU with EU parents. Is it hard to get an EU passport and how do I go about it? I live in Canada right now and retired and not looking to work anywhere. Thanks for any tips to get me started.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Nugget_Hound said:


> Thanks Xabi , How does the healthcare system work over there, I dont use the health system because I live on vitamins and grow my own food , I am 41 non smoker , do you mind me asking how much you pay for healthcare , do you pay monthly / yearly or only when you use it? is it an insurance based system, Thanks


You mean you haven't used the health care system *yet* No lifestyle, however healthy, can prevent those contingencies that beset us in life...You could trip over your hoe and break your leg!

Spanish health care is organised on a regional basis and is contribution-based so unless you have paid in you won't qualify. The quality of service as I have experienced it in Andalucia is very good indeed.

My OH prefers private care, the cost of which varies depending on the package you opt for. We pay something like 40 euros a month which enables us both to 'free' GP consultations and ambulance transferrals but seeing a specialist costs 100 euros upwards per consultation and hospitalisation much more.

I'm not sure, Xavia will know, but I think you can transfer your UK contributions for a limited period.


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## Nugget_Hound (Jun 13, 2013)

Haha yes indeed who knows what will happen after three pints of home made Sangria !! I had read that is a legal requirement for residency which is my long term aim!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

caz said:


> We here so many nagative stories about Spain and people returning to the U.K.mY Husband + I have always planned to live in Spain when retired (which is soon) we don't have lots of money. We would just like to know what to expect, have things become far more expensive,are ther unexpected taxes, has the crime rate gone up
> with unemployment, and why are so many people returning after living there for so long.
> 
> Any answers would be appreciated
> ...


To answer your queries:

yes, the cost of living has increased in Spain as in most of Europe. Electricity is expensive, fuel not much less than in the UK. Winters can be very cold, depending on where you live and unless your home is spacious and airy you'll need air-con in summer so your utility bills could be high.
Generally I'd say that for what you spend in the UK you'll spend the equivalent here.
Yes, the crime rate has gone up but again it's worse in some areas than others. We live in a supposedly affluent area and every house in our street has been burgled including ours. Nearly everyone we know has been burgled.
Unexpected taxes....these can crop up in any country, including the UK. The last VAT hike could be described as an unexpected tax.
People return to the UK for a variety of reasons. We know several people who've gone 'home'. Most have gone because they could no longer afford to live here as they had become unemployed with no prospect of further work at a living wage.
Others have gone because they found their pension incomes were insufficient to live on.
We know a few people who would like to go back but have unsaleable property. Some are stuck with mortgages on property they will probably never sell.

Basically, Spain is no longer a country where you can live off a low income, if it ever was. To enjoy life here you need either a secure, well-paid preferably professional job or a good retirement income from pensions and investments.
Times are tough for the Spanish people and uncertain for many British immigrants.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Nugget_Hound said:


> Haha yes indeed who knows what will happen after three pints of home made Sangria !! I had read that is a legal requirement for residency which is my long term aim!


Seriously, though, I'm a good case of the unexpected. I've been fit and healthy all my life, don't smoke, drink moderately...eat almost exclusively vegetarian, used to be a daily regular at the gym..
Then a friend persuaded me to have a free check-up and I was diagnosed with severe heart problems which are most likely genetic - basically the left side of my heart has packed up and a blood vessel is blocked. Paying for the drugs and probable surgery would have cost thousands of euros if I hadn't qualified for state health care.

I steer clear of sangria, as do most Spaniards I know. Plenty of good unadulterated wine for you to sample!


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

The tax situation and how it will affect you is a very big subject.Your income, assets in UK, property, insurances, savings, lump sums on retirement may be affected by being tax resident in Spain. In addition you will have to pay an accountant for your annual tax return and you will have to complete a very detailed intrusive form on your assets outside Spain over 50,000 euros in each category;again you will have to pay an accountant to do this too.
In Spain you will have to obtain licences to do even the most trivial work on your property, which involve additional cost, although I have to say many do not and take the risk.
Most people have funeral insurance or plan.
Many pay for security if they live on an urbanisation.
If as a result of accident, illness or injury you cannot look after yourself or your home, you will have to pay for help, which is not cheap. The UK which many love to slag, did at least provide assistance in this area.Any equipment, walking frames, wheelchair, crutches will not be freely lent-you will have to hire or buy them.
Dental care is private
I'm sure others will think of additional costs to living in Spain, but that's enough for now.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Nugget_Hound said:


> Thanks Xabi , How does the healthcare system work over there, I dont use the health system because I live on vitamins and grow my own food , I am 41 non smoker , do you mind me asking how much you pay for healthcare , do you pay monthly / yearly or only when you use it? is it an insurance based system, Thanks


I work self-employed & pay NI/autónomo so get state healthcare - all treatment is free but I pay 40% for prescriptions


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> The tax situation and how it will affect you is a very big subject.Your income, assets in UK, property, insurances, savings, lump sums on retirement may be affected by being tax resident in Spain. In addition you will have to pay an accountant for your annual tax return and you will have to complete a very detailed intrusive form on your assets outside Spain over 50,000 euros in each category;again you will have to pay an accountant to do this too.
> In Spain you will have to obtain licences to do even the most trivial work on your property, which involve additional cost, although I have to say many do not and take the risk.
> Most people have funeral insurance or plan.
> Many pay for security if they live on an urbanisation.
> ...


This post is excessively alarmist. Very many retired people are enjoying happy, carefree lives here.
As I said, you do need a good income - but that can be said of anywhere.
Can We assume you've had enough of Spain and are on your way home?


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## Nugget_Hound (Jun 13, 2013)

Luckily for me I dont have any assets anywhere thus another reason to move to Spain , I want to grow a lot of my own food and live in the country with my dogs, I want the simple life , in the sun with my son , three dogs, a veg garden and a swimming pool , when I move we will both try to learn Spanish as quickly as possible and whatever the attitude of the locals we will win them over with our constant niceness and smiles , plus give them free food as we will have loads spare , maybe Im dreaming but if you cant dream whats the point.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> This post is excessively alarmist. Very many retired people are enjoying happy, carefree lives here.
> As I said, you do need a good income - but that can be said of anywhere.
> Can We assume you've had enough of Spain and are on your way home?


The poster is asking for information on cost of living in Spain. I've given facts-if they are alarmist, then that is what it is like here.Everything is true.I could go on about sipping red wine,watching the sunset, cheap menus del dia, cheap this and that, but that is not what is being asked. Better that she/he knows now than discovers these things before burning bridges.She/he may well say she still wants to come, so forewarned is forearmed!Many wish they had known these things.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> The poster is asking for information on cost of living in Spain. I've given facts-if they are alarmist, then that is what it is like here.Everything is true.I could go on about sipping red wine,watching the sunset, cheap menus del dia, cheap this and that, but that is not what is being asked. Better that she/he knows now than discovers these things before burning bridges.She/he may well say she still wants to come, so forewarned is forearmed!Many wish they had known these things.


Ii'm not referring to the cost of living, though. I'm concerned with speculation about taxes that may never be imposed but which some speak of as if they are imminent. 

The bottom line is this: if you want to live in Spain, be prepared to pay whatever it may cost.I honestly don't think people come here for 'cheap' anything. Quality of life not 'cheapness' is the determining factor for most people. If you want 'cheap', better head for Bulgaria...it has nice beaches 
I and tens if not hundreds of thousands of happy immigrants think our lives here are well worth it.


But if you are budgeting on a shoestring, better stay home.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Ii'm not referring to the cost of living, though. I'm concerned with speculation about taxes that may never be imposed but which some speak of as if they are imminent.
> 
> The bottom line is this: if you want to live in Spain, be prepared to pay whatever it may cost.I honestly don't think people come here for 'cheap' anything. Quality of life not 'cheapness' is the determining factor for most people. If you want 'cheap', better head for Bulgaria...it has nice beaches
> I and tens if not hundreds of thousands of happy immigrants think our lives here are well worth it.
> ...


Er, what are the taxes that may never be imposed?I'm wrote about tax that might apply to Caz- taxes that already exist!Talking about cheap, apart from the sun, a cheaper way of living IS a huge factor in many people's decision to move here( but not for those who say they can "easily afford" to live here.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

extranjero said:


> The tax situation and how it will affect you is a very big subject.Your income, assets in UK, property, insurances, savings, lump sums on retirement may be affected by being tax resident in Spain. In addition you will have to pay an accountant for your annual tax return and you will have to complete a very detailed intrusive form on your assets outside Spain over 50,000 euros in each category;again you will have to pay an accountant to do this too.
> In Spain you will have to obtain licences to do even the most trivial work on your property, which involve additional cost, although I have to say many do not and take the risk.
> Most people have funeral insurance or plan.
> Many pay for security if they live on an urbanisation.
> ...


If it's that bad I'm sure you will soon be on the way back to UK and be whinging there about how you were hard done by in Spain. Of course, you did research everything before you came, just like those who are quite content, did.


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## el pescador (Mar 14, 2013)

Ziggy99 said:


> I want to spend more than thre months at a time in the EU mostly Spain and France. I was born in the EU with EU parents. Is it hard to get an EU passport and how do I go about it? I live in Canada right now and retired and not looking to work anywhere. Thanks for any tips to get me started.


in the uk you need your mums and dads marriage certificate and then apply for a passport.


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## el pescador (Mar 14, 2013)

Oh i fogot lol
If or when i do arrive in Spain what documents do i need to be able to rent a property?

Will a passport do till i get a residency cert?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

el pescador said:


> Oh i fogot lol
> If or when i do arrive in Spain what documents do i need to be able to rent a property?
> 
> Will a passport do till i get a residency cert?


maybe - it depends on the landlord

we'd been here 8 years when we moved into this house 2 years ago - have NIE/resident cert

the landlord wanted the passport ... wasn't interested in anything else


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Usually for the landlord the most important is receive the money each month .for him dont mind if you have the nie or not.( this is the problem of the government) he only need the passport for identificate the person who rent the house or flat .( I am a landlord too and i dont mind from where the person is while i receive the money each month.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

we are moving at the end of this year, early next, So I can not tell you what it is like to live in Spain, but I can tell you how we feel about this


Base all costs on like for like

accept that Spain is not the UK in the sun it is a different culture

do not be out off by all the negatives - but remember - you still pay taxes in spain, some are the same some are different - its spain.

things may change, things may not

finally and most important of all, and this is about life in general for me. remember. IF you go, it may be great and you will love it, it may not be what you thought it would be, but, at the end of the day, the decision is yours and like us, when we arrive, if it goes wrong and or things change, and we do not like the changes, no one told us to move, it was a life choice that we made
. 

To sum up, I have two quotes, written in my diary, where I am recording the story of this journey.



> If you wait to do everything until you're sure it's right, you'll probably never do much of anything
> Win Borden





> Our attitude towards life determines life's attitude towards us
> John N. Mitchellp,


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## el pescador (Mar 14, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> maybe - it depends on the landlord
> 
> we'd been here 8 years when we moved into this house 2 years ago - have NIE/resident cert
> 
> the landlord wanted the passport ... wasn't interested in anything else


ok thanks


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## caz (Sep 30, 2008)

extranjero said:


> The poster is asking for information on cost of living in Spain. I've given facts-if they are alarmist, then that is what it is like here.Everything is true.I could go on about sipping red wine,watching the sunset, cheap menus del dia, cheap this and that, but that is not what is being asked. Better that she/he knows now than discovers these things before burning bridges.She/he may well say she still wants to come, so forewarned is forearmed!Many wish they had known these things.


Thanks, these are the things I want to know,We can all dream of living the good life but it's the nitty gritty things we aren't told untill it's too late,I just wonder why so many are selling up, so thanks again


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

caz said:


> Thanks, these are the things I want to know,We can all dream of living the good life but it's the nitty gritty things we aren't told untill it's too late,I *just wonder why so many are selling up*, so thanks again


Why? because most failed to research things properly and came here with expectations and ambitions that not only weren't matched by their incomes but were totally unrealistic. When they find that nobody has a little part-time job for them paying megabucks that maybe only involves an hour's work a day to top up their meagre pittance (often illegally claimed DHSS benefits), they can no longer spend the rest of the day sitting in a bar and drinking themselves into oblivion, there's little else but to go back with their tails between their legs.


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> Why? because most failed to research things properly and came here with expectations and ambitions that not only weren't matched by their incomes but were totally unrealistic. When they find that nobody has a little part-time job for them paying megabucks that maybe only involves an hour's work a day to top up their meagre pittance (often illegally claimed DHSS benefits), they can no longer spend the rest of the day sitting in a bar and drinking themselves into oblivion, there's little else but to go back with their tails between their legs.


I think this generalisation is a little harsh. I guess there as many different reasons for going back as there are people. I know quite a few people who are going back to the UK or have gone back but none of them fit your description. Some have gone back because they think their children will have a better future in the UK, some have lost a partner, some have parents who have become elderly and frail and they need to be closer to them. Many have gone back for financial reasons, but not because they didn't do their homework, but because circumstances herehave changed so drastically. Until you have tried, you don't really know what it's like to live in a different country, if you can adapt. I think all of them have had a very good experience, and have no regrets, it's just time to move on.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

caz said:


> Thanks, these are the things I want to know,We can all dream of living the good life but it's the nitty gritty things we aren't told untill it's too late,I just wonder why so many are selling up, so thanks again


Mainly because as Baldy says they didn't do the maths. I came across a couple who were returning because they came here ten years ago on nothing but state retirement pensions. They left a council flat and expect the council to rehome them

We did our sums on the basis of the €/£ rate being parity, although at that time the rate was £1=€1.25. 
The fact is that Spain attracts losers, people who couldn't hack it in the UK.
Of course there are those that return for perfectly understandable reasons. But very many returning immigrants overstretched themselves or imagined that life in Spain was all sea, sun and sangria.


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

Nugget_Hound said:


> Thanks Xabi , How does the healthcare system work over there, I dont use the health system because I live on vitamins and grow my own food , I am 41 non smoker , do you mind me asking how much you pay for healthcare , do you pay monthly / yearly or only when you use it? is it an insurance based system, Thanks


Hi - i support your intentions - used to live a similar lifestyle in an English National Park, before relocating to Spain. But, vitamins and home grown veggies weren't that helpful when I slipped on some cow manure on an Asturian farm track, resulting in a complete wrist fracture..! What did the trick was a fast visit to the nearest Centro de Salud, followed by a trip to the Public Hospital in Oviedo to be X-rayed and plastered up, along with multiple repeat visits over the next 6 months, until the plaster could finally be removed!

,In Spring, this year, whilst in the UK, I again suffered a completely unexpected health problem - a large retinal tear in one eye! That required both laser treatment (First Aid) and then an eye operation in a British hospital! Had the same occurred in Spain, where I would normally have been, if not for family commitments, I'd have been reliant, again, as a pensioner, on the Spanish Public Health system! THe EU Health card would not entitled me to the follow-up visits and ongoing consultations which I needed, after surgery.

My point is that we may hope to avoid major health problems by means of our diet and healthy living, but accidents and unforeseen medical problems can, sadly, take us all by surprise! I'd advise you, very strongly, to make sure you are covered, by insurance if you're not eligible to access the Spanish Public Health System - before setting foot in this country! 

Others here can provide info. on current insurance costs, I'm sure. Good luck with your plans!

Saludos,
GC


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> If it's that bad I'm sure you will soon be on the way back to UK and be whinging there about how you were hard done by in Spain. Of course, you did research everything before you came, just like those who are quite content, did.


So you think that the other costs of living in Spain(as requested by the original poster) can be described as bad, when in fact it is just a list. I never whinged about them-they are a fact of life in Spain and people need to know about them when they come here.No research can really prepare you for living in Spain, it's not until you live the life that you know what's what. You can read all the books, search online, but the reality is that many things are not done as you have read in the book, and some things aren't even mentioned.
Those cushioned by massive pensions and bank balances couldn't care less about the exchange rate, rise in iva, price of diesel etc, and can contentedly sit back on the terrace pontificating, but to some the cost of everyday living is important.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

extranjero said:


> So you think that the other costs of living in Spain(as requested by the original poster) can be described as bad, when in fact it is just a list. I never whinged about them-they are a fact of life in Spain and people need to know about them when they come here.No research can really prepare you for living in Spain, it's not until you live the life that you know what's what. You can read all the books, search online, but the reality is that many things are not done as you have read in the book, and some things aren't even mentioned.
> Those cushioned by massive pensions and bank balances couldn't care less about the exchange rate, rise in iva, price of diesel etc, and can contentedly sit back on the terrace pontificating, but to some the cost of everyday living is important.


If you think that the OAP which we paid into for 44 years is massive, then you are looking at a different UK from which the rest of us come.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> If you think that the OAP which we paid into for 44 years is massive, then you are looking at a different UK from which the rest of us come.


Obviously I am not referring to the OAP-very few are living just on that in Spain. Many have huge company, private or military pensions-good for them;I am just saying that when you are very comfortably off it cushions any rise in the cost of living, and won't make much if any difference to your lifestyle.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> Obviously I am not referring to the OAP-very few are living just on that in Spain. Many have huge company, private or military pensions-good for them;I am just saying that when you are very comfortably off it cushions any rise in the cost of living, and won't make much if any difference to your lifestyle.


Quite. At last you've got the point.

And your point is??

Incidentally, we owe our comfortable lifestyle to decades of hard work, giving other people well-paid employment and keeping a close watch on our finances.

What you are in effect saying is that if you can't afford it, life in Spain is not for you so don"t come here on a shoestring as you won't be able to absorb any increases in your cost of living, whether unexpected or not.

A point I have put to you more than once.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Quite. At last you've got the point.
> 
> And your point is??
> 
> ...


I am not on a shoestring, neither am I very comfortable just on a modest income like thousands of other ex pats, and yes like them, did move here thinking the cost of living would be cheaper and it was slightly, for a time.
We also worked hard for decades and kept a close watch on our finances.
However we do not belong to I'M all right Jack brigade and neither do we want to!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

extranjero said:


> I am not on a shoestring, neither am I very comfortable just on a modest income like thousands of other ex pats, and yes like them, did move here thinking the cost of living would be cheaper and it was slightly, for a time.
> We also worked hard for decades and kept a close watch on our finances.
> However we do not belong to I'M all right Jack brigade and neither do we want to!


It strikes me that any thread to which you subscribe becomes your personal whinging ground about those who are content with their lives here. As I have just said on another thread that you are on, life is too short to waste it on such pettiness. I'm out of this thread, too!


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

GUAPACHICA said:


> ,In Spring, this year, whilst in the UK, I again suffered a completely unexpected health problem - a large retinal tear in one eye! That required both laser treatment (First Aid) and then an eye operation in a British hospital! Had the same occurred in Spain, where I would normally have been, if not for family commitments, I'd have been reliant, again, as a pensioner, on the Spanish Public Health system! THe EU Health card would not entitled me to the follow-up visits and ongoing consultations which I needed, after surgery.
> 
> GC


Hi Guapachica, 
Do you mind if I ask a question about this as I have read very confusing information about this matter? You are entitled to healthcover here, (either as a pensioner or through and S1 form) and are registered here. When you needed eye surgery in the UK, was it covered by an EHIC? Or are you still entitled to health cover in the UK regardless of being registered here? If it was covered by the EHIC, does it therefore cover after care that is not covered in Spain by the same card? I hope you don't mind me asking you these questions but I have read a lot of contradictions about this matter.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> I am not on a shoestring, neither am I very comfortable just on a modest income like thousands of other ex pats, and yes like them, did move here thinking the cost of living would be cheaper and it was slightly, for a time.
> We also worked hard for decades and kept a close watch on our finances.
> However we do not belong to I'M all right Jack brigade and neither do we want to!


To which I can only say that you did not plan well. Did you really think that the cost of living would remain static? Did you not realise that exchange rates fluctuate? Did it not occur to you that inflation might erode your income?

Most of us happy immigrants -note'immigrants' not that poncey term 'expats' - factored in these important variables when planning our moves.

So yes, I am 'all right,Jack' but that doesn't stop me sympathising with and in a small way helping local people who are experiencing difficulties through no fault of their own

Moving to Spain is a privilege, not a right. It seems you belong to the resentful brigade - I have a horrible vision of a bunch of pensioner immigrants bemoaning their lot over weak tea in a Brit bar. 

If as I suspect is the case the majority of immigrants here are not HNWIs then they will have little to fear from any ****tive tax rise as their assets will be minimal.


Moving to any country on a low income requires very careful planning. You factor in the worst scenarios and see if your resources match them 

That's why we're in Spain and not Tuscany or the Dordogne. Spain is easily affordable whatever, those other places aren't.

Like Baldy, I'll leave you yo your sorrows because yes, like 99% of immigrants here, we are *very* alright, Jack


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Its about expectations, if you are on a fixed income you can match your UK lifestyle in Spain. If you can afford to eat out once or more a week then you should be able to do the same in Spain as overall prices are very similar. If your on a tight budget and have no great 'social' life in the UK don't expect it to be much better in Spain on the same income.


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> Why? because most failed to research things properly and came here with expectations and ambitions that not only weren't matched by their incomes but were totally unrealistic. When they find that nobody has a little part-time job for them paying megabucks that maybe only involves an hour's work a day to top up their meagre pittance (often illegally claimed DHSS benefits), they can no longer spend the rest of the day sitting in a bar and drinking themselves into oblivion, there's little else but to go back with their tails between their legs.


If you take the trouble to get to know people who have fallen on hard times or into disaster, you'll find that most of them are as good as or better than you. It's terribly easy for people who are doing well to imagine that it's all due to their own wisdom or tenacity or hard work or common sense or other virtues and the corollary is that anyone who hasn't succeeded must have deserved it, but the truth is not so at all. Being a very nice person is probably the best way to end in the gutter- nice, honest, generous, all the virtues and "doing the maths" and researching are necessary, but life's full of surprises and you can plan and research for years, but the unexpected and unimagined can still happen. What about, "Judge not that ye be not judged?" What about, "There but for fortune?" What about motes and beams? Don't be harsh on the fools and failures and remember that you may appear as a fool and a failure to some.


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> The fact is that Spain attracts losers, people who couldn't hack it in the UK.


Quote of the month!


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2013)

Nugget_Hound said:


> I am looking for a long term rental in a rural area there are a lot more things to take in to account than I thought!!! NIE and minimum income / Healthcare being the main ones, I thought it would be easier , seems so easy for anyone and everyone to come to the UK without a job / skills , I have a regular income and would not want to claim benefits.
> 
> I thought there must be at least one benefit from being in the EU but doesnt seem like their is , good luck are you looking to rent or buy, If I had 10 grand I would buy a bit of land in the middle of nowhere and just get a caravan , there seems to be a lot of cheap deals on land!


The cheap deals on land are because there's no mains water or electricity or postal delivery or.. etc. and now that we all have to pay so many taxes, etc. in order to have all our modern services (bombs, wars, rule by corporations, noisy roads to get killed on, pasteurised GM plastifood, airports) it's not possible to just be self-sufficient or any of that rural dream. The land is abandoned for good reasons.


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2013)

I missed out a hyphen in Post #41. It should say, "Being a very nice person is probably the best way to end in the gutter - nice, honest, generous, all the virtues *-* and "doing the maths" and researching are necessary, but life's full of surprises and you can plan and research for years, but the unexpected and unimagined can still happen."


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Céline;1215606 said:


> Quote of the month!


 I havent read the whole thread, but I will say that for some reason Spain - certainly in the past has attracted more than its fair share of folk who have left the UK without doing any serious research, but have heard and assumed that it would be lovely to "live the dream", move to Spain, do a bit of pool cleaning and stuff for some pocket money - cos they've heard its cheap to live there, easy to stay under the radar and then you dont need to pay taxes, take your own car and you wont need to worry about insurance etc., booze and ciggies are cheap........ I've met lots of people like this. Most of them have returned to the UK now. I know only one couple who are still together and managed to get jobs and buy a house on their return. The others have split due to the pressure and are struggling - they've lost everything!

Without research and knowledge you are hugely increasing the risk of failure. Of course there will be exceptions, but its like anything. Do the work, research, planning, preparation and saving and you will have a better chance. The forum is a good starting point, however, the forum cant lie and cant tell anyone its easy - cos it aint! So expat wannabes have to deal with that fact and theres no point moaning about it.

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> I havent read the whole thread, but I will say that for some reason Spain - certainly in the past has attracted more than its fair share of folk who have left the UK without doing any serious research, but have heard and assumed that it would be lovely to "live the dream", move to Spain, do a bit of pool cleaning and stuff for some pocket money - cos they've heard its cheap to live there, easy to stay under the radar and then you dont need to pay taxes, take your own car and you wont need to worry about insurance etc., booze and ciggies are cheap........ I've met lots of people like this. Most of them have returned to the UK now. I know only one couple who are still together and managed to get jobs and buy a house on their return. The others have split due to the pressure and are struggling - they've lost everything!
> 
> Without research and knowledge you are hugely increasing the risk of failure. Of course there will be exceptions, but its like anything. Do the work, research, planning, preparation and saving and you will have a better chance. The forum is a good starting point, however, the forum cant lie and cant tell anyone its easy - cos it aint! So expat wannabes have to deal with that fact and theres no point moaning about it.
> 
> Jo xxx


and sadly they're still coming 

I've met two families recently who have come over in the past few months, expecting to be able to just pick up work - true enough they're getting some work, but not enough to support a family without working 'black' - maybe not enough even then...


another two couples (sisters & their OHs) came last year - one couple returned very quickly when they realised it wouldn't work - the others stuck it out until a few weeks ago 

they again did get some work - & I'm told that the guy was actually very good at what he did - but again, they never went 'legal' ........ & then one day no-one turned up to clean a lot of pools

they are back in the UK - she's pregnant ................


of course, since they weren't 'legal' they had no claim to the healthcare system here .... or am I cynical?


I have also recently met two young couples with kids who HAVE done lots of research, have savings behind them & are doing things properly & legally - I seriously hope they make a success of things - the businesses they want to build are actually something the community needs


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Ok, I know a couple, the wife was one of these "oh lets just go to Spain, it'll be alright", the husband was "mr Cautious". They had good finances and the husband did huge amounts of research and actually had a friend already in Spain running a business similar to his in the UK, so they planned to join forces in Spain. So there we have it, a successful business plan, finances in place, a house to rent in the UK, a business in the UK and a plan in Spain........ The wife had wanted to just sell the UK house and take everything with them

Then the recession hit. It was not a good time to start this type of business venture in Spain, the UK business needed input, so the husband had to commute, the exchange rate became a problem with the rental from the UK house and income, they had two kids in an international school....... 

Fortunately they hadnt burnt UK bridges and were able to return to the UK with relative ease.

Luckily the wife didnt do the "lets just go and live in Spain" or they'd be in serious ca-ca now!!!!............ and this whole wonderful adventure wasnt cheap, luckily they had enough savings!

Jo xxxx


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2013)

jojo said:


> Without research and knowledge you are hugely increasing the risk of failure.


Isn't that what people are doing when they ask the questions for which some posters despise them? They're starting their research and looking for knowledge. One can give the answers without unpleasantness. If they knew, they wouldn't be asking.


> So *expat wannabes* have to deal with that fact and theres no point moaning about it.


D'you mean people who want to live in Spain and are trying to find out whether it's possible? I thought 'wannabe' was a derogatory term - it is thus when I read it in the British press.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Céline said:


> The cheap deals on land are because there's no mains water or electricity or postal delivery or.. etc. and now that we all have to pay so many taxes, etc. in order to have all our modern services (bombs, wars, rule by corporations, noisy roads to get killed on, pasteurised GM plastifood, airports) it's not possible to just be self-sufficient or any of that rural dream. The land is abandoned for good reasons.


You need to do some research, yourself and then you'll find out why so much land lies abandoned especially in the southwestern parts of Castilla la Mancha, Extremadura and western Andalucía. I warn you that you will need to go back maybe 1500 or more years into the history of the Iberian peninsula to get the full story.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Céline said:


> Isn't that what people are doing when they ask the questions for which some posters despise them? They're starting their research and looking for knowledge. One can give the answers without unpleasantness. If they knew, they wouldn't be asking.
> 
> D'you mean people who want to live in Spain and are trying to find out whether it's possible? I thought 'wannabe' was a derogatory term - it is thus when I read it in the British press.


What irritates is the fact that some expect somebody else to have all the answers for them so that they make little or no effort themselves. For many of us, we had to do ALL the research ourselves because these forums did not exist. 

With all the will in the world, we cannot provide ALL the answers to some posters' enquiries because we don't know their personal circumstances. Some posters, especially those who are trying to cheat the system or stay 'underneath the radar' will only give a partial statement of the circumstances surrounding their enquiry then wonder why they weren't told all the facts. Or the others who don't like it when they are told that their 'dream' is either an impossibility or illegal...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Céline said:


> If you take the trouble to get to know people who have fallen on hard times or into disaster, you'll find that most of them are as good as or better than you. It's terribly easy for people who are doing well to imagine that it's all due to their own wisdom or tenacity or hard work or common sense or other virtues and the corollary is that anyone who hasn't succeeded must have deserved it, but the truth is not so at all. Being a very nice person is probably the best way to end in the gutter- nice, honest, generous, all the virtues and "doing the maths" and researching are necessary, but life's full of surprises and you can plan and research for years, but the unexpected and unimagined can still happen. What about, "Judge not that ye be not judged?" What about, "There but for fortune?" What about motes and beams? Don't be harsh on the fools and failures and remember that you may appear as a fool and a failure to some.


Be careful lest you offend... You yourself are being judgmental about people of whom you know nothing other than what they post here.
You read into posts sentiments that aren't there. Nobody has boasted of their superior fact-finding and research skills. Nobody has condemned those who fall upon hard times. 
I stand by my comment that some Brits who come to Spain are losers. Often they are running away from something -debt, child support or crime....and thankfully the long arm of the law has caught up with most of them.
I know all about the 'failures'. We are currently the sole means of support of an unemployed young man who would literally starve if we didn't find work for him to do so we can pay him and maintain his dignity. We also keep him in gas bottles and buy quality food for his two dogs. So we know all about people who through no fault of their own are down on their luck.
We do that because my OH and I have spent most of our lives i the UK involved in our local community and the wider community. We need no lectures. We know through personal experience how life can deal you an unexpected and undeserved blow.
Actually, the fact that we and most others are comfortable here IS because of our hard work and forethought. I wouldn't disagree that luck, good or bad, plays a major role, but then again, some people might say you make your own luck.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Céline;1215669 said:


> .
> 
> D'you mean people who want to live in Spain and are trying to find out whether it's possible? I thought 'wannabe' was a derogatory term - it is thus when I read it in the British press.


You make my point that nearly everything we hear or read is interpreted according to the mind of the beholder/reader/listener. A lot depends on the kind of press you read too.
Some of us could spend our whole lives in a state of constant offence.

Looking back, I guess I should have been offended when I was described as a 'wannabe MP'. 
But I have a life


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> You need to do some research, yourself and then you'll find out why so much land lies abandoned especially in the southwestern parts of Castilla la Mancha, Extremadura and western Andalucía. I warn you that you will need to go back maybe 1500 or more years into the history of the Iberian peninsula to get the full story.


Of course I know that and the same applies to everything, everywhere, but this isn't a history thread! I was just saying that there are so many people everywhere who dream of that simple, old-fashioned, rural life, off-grid, with your goats and veg., but now it's very nearly impossible for anyone to live that way anywhere. Why is Brittany full of small intensive egg or pork units, for instance? Because it was all tiny farms, with 5ha and four cows, cutting gorse for the horses, etc. After the war, roads, taxes, social security, tractors, rubber boots.. life was better in many ways, but at a cost. People had to either move to a city to work in a factory or be paid to have the factory on their farm! I've lived a lot of my life off-grid and parts of my life in that goats-and-veg. way, so I know. Ear-tags,, movement reports, vaccinations, ceiling heights, blah blah - but more and more ill-health, que sorpresa! And when one sees advertisements for beautiful old almond orchards or tracts of sierra for sale for 6000€, nobody tells you at first about the impossibilities and even if they do, one can't help yearning or wanting to try!
Corporate rule gobbling up the world and we're all helping. We haven't much choice.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Céline;1215750 said:


> Of course I know that and the same applies to everything, everywhere,* but this isn't a history thread! *I was just saying that there are so many people everywhere who dream of that simple, old-fashioned, rural life, off-grid, with your goats and veg., but now it's very nearly impossible for anyone to live that way anywhere. Why is Brittany full of small intensive egg or pork units, for instance? Because it was all tiny farms, with 5ha and four cows, cutting gorse for the horses, etc. After the war, roads, taxes, social security, tractors, rubber boots.. life was better in many ways, but at a cost. People had to either move to a city to work in a factory or be paid to have the factory on their farm! I've lived a lot of my life off-grid and parts of my life in that goats-and-veg. way, so I know. Ear-tags,, movement reports, vaccinations, ceiling heights, blah blah - but more and more ill-health, que sorpresa! And when one sees advertisements for beautiful old almond orchards or tracts of sierra for sale for 6000€, *nobody tells you at first about the impossibilities and even if they do*, one can't help yearning or wanting to try!
> Corporate rule gobbling up the world and we're all helping. We haven't much choice.


One of the joys of this forum is that there is so much digression...so why shouldn't it evolve into a history thread?
I've learnt a lot from posters who know about the history, customs, traditions of Spain.
My second highlight....well, when we DO tell them, we get accused of 'being harsh' or 'raining on their parade'....and when people complain 'Ah but it's the way you say it'... again these are usually not the OPs complaining of the 'harsh treatment' it's the net nannies looking out on their behalf.

The reason people are 'helping' these corporations isn't only because they/we haven't much choice, which is true. The main reason is most probably that they don't care because working people are now enjoying a standard of material prosperity which previously only the wealthy could have access to.
Yes, it's at the expense of the environment and the millions of poor people in developing countries.
But that is ignored or even rarely thought of when people contemplatd their improved lifestyles...although never mind that your local hospital might kill you rather than cure you because of cuts in public spending or poorly-trained, don't give a damn staff.
That's the human race for you.


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2013)

caz said:


> Thanks, these are the things I want to know,We can all dream of living the good life but it's the nitty gritty things we aren't told untill it's too late,I just wonder why so many are selling up, so thanks again


I've lived in several countries and I think adventure is best when you're a bit younger; i also think that "East or West, home's best." I think it's better, after a certain age, to keep what you have and branch out - go on travels, explore your own country, help in charities, try new hobbies, but keep a firmly rooted base. Not because one place is better than another, just that by the time we're free to retire in another country, we're more fragile in every way. I've always been a rather adventurous person and I used to be able to extricate myself from the sometimes rather dramtic consequences, but you do lose your resilience, quickness and adaptability with age and most people have more safety nets and stronger circle of support in the place where they've lived longest and where they 'know their way about.'
A lot of people are returing to the U.K. because of changing economy, taxes, job market, holiday-villas not letting, problems getting electricity.. Crime is worsening and spreading, as always in a recession, and the olice have no money and law courts take years and years. The magic's still here, though, in the sparkling air. (Well, it sparkles in some places.) France is so safe and lawful and sensible, it can be very oppressive, but I do rather miss it now.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Céline said:


> I've lived in several countries and I think adventure is best when you're a bit younger; i also think that "East or West, home's best." I think it's better, after a certain age, to keep what you have and branch out - go on travels, explore your own country, help in charities, try new hobbies, but keep a firmly rooted base. Not because one place is better than another, just that by the time we're free to retire in another country, we're more fragile in every way. I've always been a rather adventurous person and I used to be able to extricate myself from the sometimes rather dramtic consequences, but you do lose your resilience, quickness and adaptability with age and most people have more safety nets and stronger circle of support in the place where they've lived longest and where they 'know their way about.'
> A lot of people are returing to the U.K. because of changing economy, taxes, job market, holiday-villas not letting, problems getting electricity.. Crime is worsening and spreading, as always in a recession, and the olice have no money and law courts take years and years. The magic's still here, though, in the sparkling air. (Well, it sparkles in some places.) France is so safe and lawful and sensible, it can be very oppressive, but I do rather miss it now.


Well, that's your opinion but I think you'll find that very many people disagree with you. I 'd call that a very contentious post to which I guarantee contradictory replies.
For one thing, not everyone becomes 'fragile'with age. Not everyone 'loses their resilience, adaptability 'etc.. That depends very much on the person. Being adventurous, whatever that may mean, isn't a stage in your life, it's a frame of mind. You either have it or you don't.
Some people manage to keep bases in more than one location. They make 'circles of support' aka as friends wherever they pitch their metaphorical tent. Most people don't lose friends when they relocate. They retain former friends, make new friends and of course most of us have our families.
Personally, I wouldn't want to remain in the place I lived longest. I wouldn't even go back their in a wooden box. I could possibly contemplate a move to where I was born and grew up but I can't afford to live there. Too many wealthy people have moved in and upped the price of property.
We have always been 'adventurous' but have never been involved in any scenarios that could be perceived as 'dramatic'. 
I do not for one moment regret leaving the UK when we retired. Far from it. We had a choice: stay with the known and familiar or start life over again.
Spain is our home now and because of careful planning for any future contingency we shall stay.

I like France very much, we considered moving on there before finding we like Spain too much. But as for France being 'safe and lawful' ....vous plaisantez...
There is as much if not more violent crime in France than in the UK. Under Sarkozy you were as likely to be shot by a flic as by a gangster. 
Every country in the world has its fair share of crime, sad to say.

I hope the OP, who hopes to retire in Spain, isn't fragile, slow or less resilent and is deterred from making what could most likely be the best move of her life.


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> Looking back, I guess I should have been offended when I was described as a 'wannabe MP'.


So does that mean it *is *pejorative? 

If so, then yes, I think it is offensive to refer to people who want to emigrate as "wannabe expats" (and that from a moderator!) and turn thread after thread into a litany of denigration and aggression. It's depressed me too much - I may still use the France forum, but I shan't look at the Spanish one again - horrible.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Céline;1215750 said:


> Of course I know that and the same applies to everything, everywhere, but this isn't a history thread! I was just saying that there are so many people everywhere who dream of that simple, old-fashioned, rural life, off-grid, with your goats and veg., but now it's very nearly impossible for anyone to live that way anywhere. Why is Brittany full of small intensive egg or pork units, for instance? Because it was all tiny farms, with 5ha and four cows, cutting gorse for the horses, etc. After the war, roads, taxes, social security, tractors, rubber boots.. life was better in many ways, but at a cost. People had to either move to a city to work in a factory or be paid to have the factory on their farm! I've lived a lot of my life off-grid and parts of my life in that goats-and-veg. way, so I know. Ear-tags,, movement reports, vaccinations, ceiling heights, blah blah - but more and more ill-health, que sorpresa! And when one sees advertisements for beautiful old almond orchards or tracts of sierra for sale for 6000€, nobody tells you at first about the impossibilities and even if they do, one can't help yearning or wanting to try!
> Corporate rule gobbling up the world and we're all helping. We haven't much choice.


You also said
"The cheap deals on land are because there's no mains water or electricity or postal delivery or.. etc. and now that we all have to pay so many taxes, etc. in order to have all our modern services (bombs, wars, rule by corporations, noisy roads to get killed on, pasteurised GM plastifood, airports) it's not possible to just be self-sufficient or any of that rural dream. *The land is abandoned for good reasons*."

Which prompted my comment that you need to read up a bit on history then you would not make such daft statements.

Bringing up the bit about the grossly inefficient smallholdings in France, the protection of which, was the ruin of the CAP has nothing whatever to do with the plight of Spain.

If you had acquainted yourself with history (albeit this is not a history thread) you would know that a lot of land was abandoned because the highly influential landowners took it out of cultivation rather than pay the peasants to work it. The fact that many of those same peasants were not allowed to own any land or work any of it for the growing of food to feed their own families who were starving was one of the factors that led to the Civil War. But to understand how all that came about you need to go back to the times of the Visigoths when kings were elected often by bribing others by gifts of land. Land that, often was not officially within the power of the king to allocate. Thus then made some very powerful landowners who managed to get themselves exempt from taxation while all the revenue required for the running of the country, wars etc was borne by the peasantry. There is, of course, only so much blood that can be squeezed from a stone and on a number of occasions (post Reyes Catolicos) so little money was flowing into the Treasury that the monarchs on several occasions that the King declared bankruptcy. Still the landowners did not contribute and were so powerful that they could do just as they wished and there was nobody to stop them. 

So you see there is much to know before you comment about abandoned land.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Céline said:


> So does that mean it *is *pejorative?
> 
> If so, then yes, I think it is offensive to refer to people who want to emigrate as "wannabe expats" (and that from a moderator!) and turn thread after thread into a litany of denigration and aggression. It's depressed me too much - I may still use the France forum, but I shan't look at the Spanish one again - horrible.


No, I don't.
But it seems you do.

People seem to fight like ferrets in a sack on the French Forum too...and send offensive pms to Mods.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Céline said:


> I've lived in several countries and I think adventure is best when you're a bit younger; i also think that "East or West, home's best." I think it's better, after a certain age, to keep what you have and branch out - go on travels, explore your own country, help in charities, try new hobbies, but keep a firmly rooted base. Not because one place is better than another, just that by the time we're free to retire in another country, we're more fragile in every way. I've always been a rather adventurous person and I used to be able to extricate myself from the sometimes rather dramtic consequences, but you do lose your resilience, quickness and adaptability with age and most people have more safety nets and stronger circle of support in the place where they've lived longest and where they 'know their way about.'
> A lot of people are returing to the U.K. because of changing economy, taxes, job market, holiday-villas not letting, problems getting electricity.. Crime is worsening and spreading, as always in a recession, and the olice have no money and law courts take years and years. The magic's still here, though, in the sparkling air. (Well, it sparkles in some places.) France is so safe and lawful and sensible, it can be very oppressive, but I do rather miss it now.


What a load of rubbish. Many of those who are going "back" are those who should never have come in the first place - they had no capital, no income, no jobs, no hope. They gave little or no thought as to how they were going to manage in a country that doesn't have the safety net of the UK's Social Security system. They came to learn a little of what it might be like in many other countries where there is not that safety net where there are two choices - "steal or starve".

Using age is an excuse is pathetic. I am 72 next month, but do you ever hear me using that as an excuse for not being aware of things or making the effort to find out what I need/ought to know.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Céline;1215814 said:


> So does that mean it *is *pejorative?
> 
> If so, then yes, I think it is offensive to refer to people who want to emigrate as "wannabe expats" (and that from a moderator!) and turn thread after thread into a litany of denigration and aggression. It's depressed me too much - I may still use the France forum, but I shan't look at the Spanish one again - horrible.


what does it have to do with being a moderator?

we make sure people follow the rules, is all

we post as people & are allowed opinions, though - as equally as you are allowed to take offence where none is meant


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Céline;1215669 said:


> Isn't that what people are doing when they ask the questions for which some posters despise them? They're starting their research and looking for knowledge. One can give the answers without unpleasantness. If they knew, they wouldn't be asking.
> 
> D'you mean people who want to live in Spain and are trying to find out whether it's possible? I thought 'wannabe' was a derogatory term - it is thus when I read it in the British press.


*No one despises anyone* - thats you making totally unjustified assumptions - for which I dont know why!!!!!?? 

We answer the questions posted, some folk may not like the answers, but they can either take it or leave it - Some may argue that their situation is different or they know someone who did it and it worked, some may then start or join threads accusing those who have taken the trouble to contribute of being unkind??? In the end the facts are the facts, whatever anyone may think.

Wannabe isnt a derogatory term is it?????? its someone who wants to do/be something??? I can assure you that I didnt mean it as derogatory. So please dont try to find fault where there isnt any

Jo


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Céline;1215814 said:


> So does that mean it *is *pejorative?
> 
> If so, then yes, I think it is offensive to refer to people who want to emigrate as "wannabe expats" (and that from a moderator!) and turn thread after thread into a litany of denigration and aggression. It's depressed me too much - I may still use the France forum, but I shan't look at the Spanish one again - horrible.


Well I didnt offend - however I find your comment is offensive. Perhaps you need to learn the language before you make sweeping statements.

I'll leave your posts on the forum, so that your comments and attitude can be seen and noted

Jo


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

wow

speechless


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

cambio said:


> wow
> 
> speechless


Please enlighten us as to what that palindrome refers.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

Céline said:


> I've lived in several countries and I think adventure is best when you're a bit younger; i also think that "East or West, home's best." I think it's better, after a certain age, to keep what you have and branch out - go on travels, explore your own country, help in charities, try new hobbies, but keep a firmly rooted base. Not because one place is better than another, just that by the time we're free to retire in another country, we're more fragile in every way. I've always been a rather adventurous person and I used to be able to extricate myself from the sometimes rather dramtic consequences, but you do lose your resilience, quickness and adaptability with age and most people have more safety nets and stronger circle of support in the place where they've lived longest and where they 'know their way about.'
> A lot of people are returing to the U.K. because of changing economy, taxes, job market, holiday-villas not letting, problems getting electricity.. Crime is worsening and spreading, as always in a recession, and the olice have no money and law courts take years and years. The magic's still here, though, in the sparkling air. (Well, it sparkles in some places.) France is so safe and lawful and sensible, it can be very oppressive, but I do rather miss it now.


I will be 70 next year and I like adventure. It has nothing to do with age, it has more to do with mentality. If you think you are old, then you will feel old.
Yes,people are returning to the UK, but the only ones I know who are returning is because of family reasons. Once you become grandparents, or you miss your kids, there is a yearning possibly to be nearer to them.
I fail to see what France has to do with living in Spain. Your perception of France will be different to mine, but to me this is a safer country to live in.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

> France is so safe and lawful and sensible, it can be very oppressive, but I do rather miss it now.


This one


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Céline said:


> So does that mean it *is *pejorative?
> 
> If so, then yes, I think it is offensive to refer to people who want to emigrate as "wannabe expats" (and that from a moderator!) and turn thread after thread into a litany of denigration and aggression. It's depressed me too much - I may still use the France forum, but I shan't look at the Spanish one again - horrible.


Yes, that's probably for the best as you don't seem don't enjoy the Spanish forum, and your posts seem to be largely about what's wrong with it

I was looking for some of your posts about where you are in Spain and what you think of it, but haven't been able to find any...


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, that's probably for the best as you don't seem don't enjoy the Spanish forum, and your posts seem to be largely about what's wrong with it
> 
> I was looking for some of your posts about where you are in Spain and what you think of it, but haven't been able to find any...


I think her profile says Sevilla


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

jojo said:


> Ok, I know a couple, the wife was one of these "oh lets just go to Spain, it'll be alright", the husband was "mr Cautious". They had good finances and the husband did huge amounts of research and actually had a friend already in Spain running a business similar to his in the UK, so they planned to join forces in Spain. So there we have it, a successful business plan, finances in place, a house to rent in the UK, a business in the UK and a plan in Spain........ The wife had wanted to just sell the UK house and take everything with them
> 
> Then the recession hit. It was not a good time to start this type of business venture in Spain, the UK business needed input, so the husband had to commute, the exchange rate became a problem with the rental from the UK house and income, they had two kids in an international school.......
> 
> ...


BTW, for those who havent realised - this is _*my*_ story lol!!!

Jo xxx


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

jojo said:


> BTW, for those who havent realised - this is _*my*_ story lol!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


I think those of who know you realised that.


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## IanB (Feb 11, 2013)

Well for what my comment is worth I am very proud to be a *WANNABE EXPAT* at the moment. As I said elsewhere if it was not for this forum and the excellent comments and information it provides on the real day to day living in Spain, we could have made a disastrous mistake by rushing in to retire there with what on the surface appears to be adequate funds. It has provided us with a time of rational reflection and a deeper analysis if what we were/are trying to achieve. Have any of the critics actually sat down and thought very hard about the contradictions of what the official storylines are and the law is and the actual experiences of those who are out there living the reality every day?

Pause for thought before acting in the current climate would be my suggestion to anyone.

regards


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## pablosho (Jul 11, 2007)

Hola,

Like Jo, I haven't read the whole thread, but I have read enough to think WTF?

Forgive me if I am wrong but aren't these forums here to help people? Aren't the moderators supposed to keep things on topic?

Like so many others I am going to make a couple of assumptions at the risk of being put in my place by the God's who rule these places. Is there not a need to stamp out the petty and personal, little tit for tat posts? They don't help anyone.

I got lucky coming to Spain, no doubt about it but a hard work ethic and having a Spanish partner helped. We sold up and came here from the UK with a 4yr old & a six month old baby. Still here 11 years on. Not boasting, it is very hard to make a living but I do.

The one very important thing I recommend everybody does before they come here or as soon as they arrive to Spain, is learn the language and learn it well.
It could save your life or a loved ones. It will make you independent, enjoy life and allow you to integrate with your hosts. Researching is all well and good but you need to live in Spain to see if it's for you. Not only that but there are so many parts of Spain that vary in culture & customs, it's a big Country. As I said; my partner is Spanish but after having lived in London for 10 years, had much more trouble accepting the way of life and the people of Andalucía, than I did.

My advice, for what it's worth but I am not sure it will even reach the original poster or anyone who needs it, would be,
1.) Learn Spanish.
2.) Make a list of of all your requirements/non requirements of places to live.
3.) Research the areas that meet your requirements.
4.) Take several rekkie trips, out of holiday season if poss.
5.) Take note of the cost of living, where possible. IE; Supermarket shopping, petrol, public transport, eating out, property rentals etc.
6.) Go home and do the maths. Income v out goings X years you want to live in Spain.
7.) You only get one life, don't live on regrets or what if's. It may or may not work out but I wish you luck.

PS. If you have kids of school age, (not Caz) they should be your major concern. Happy kids make for a happy move and a lot less stressful for your move!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

pablosho said:


> The one very important thing I recommend everybody does before they come here or as soon as they arrive to Spain, is learn the language and learn it well.
> It could save your life or a loved ones. It will make you independent, enjoy life and allow you to integrate with your hosts. Researching is all well and good but you need to live in Spain to see if it's for you. Not only that but there are so many parts of Spain that vary in culture & customs, it's a big Country. As I said; my partner is Spanish but after having lived in London for 10 years, had much more trouble accepting the way of life and the people of Andalucía, than I did.
> 
> My advice, for what it's worth but I am not sure it will even reach the original poster or anyone who needs it, would be,
> ...


Precisely what I keep telling people. Research, research, research!

Some of the posters who come asking questions, often know so little about the place other than what they have read in holiday brochures. They arrive with no income, no capital, no job, no home, no hope and no idea of what they are letting themselves in for or where they are. Many think this is just an offshoot of "Sarfend", often they think, because they can just come here for a cheapo holiday with no responsibilities no real formalities that moving here will be the same.

We try to help where possible but some, once they have an idea in their heads, are very difficult to persuade that whatever they are thinking of will not work or they think they can ignore whichever rules or laws don't agree with what they are planning to do and get upset when we tell them that they can't.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

pablosho said:


> Hola,
> 
> Like Jo, I haven't read the whole thread, but I have read enough to think WTF?
> 
> ...


I agree with most of what you say.
The majority of posts on here say more or less the same.
The forum is for helping people.
Moderators are meant to moderate.
That is what happens most of the time on this forum.

So, WTF?

Maybe you're reading another forum?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

pablosho said:


> Hola,
> 
> Like Jo, I haven't read the whole thread, but I have read enough to think WTF?
> 
> ...


 Lots of people got lucky 11 years ago - no recession, Spain was still "up and coming" and the main holiday destination. Things are very different. Firstly you have to prove an income and healthcare provision, secondly and you wont find work as easily as you did.

As for the forum??? Well its great, it combines information with chat. Its not a government run forum and the information may not always be accurate, but its all about experiences of others. 

We do our best

Jo xxx


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

jojo said:


> We do our best
> 
> Jo xxx


We do our best to make sure that it is as accurate as we know, but the rules keep changing so that even those who should know and are operating to them, often don't know, add to that the fact that the rules are different in different places and that often varies according to which funcionario is reading and applying them. Most leading theologians claim that this argument is a load of dingo's kidneys, but that didn't stop Oolon Colluphid making a small fortune when he used it as the central theme of his best-selling book Well That About Wraps It Up For God


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## misspamela (Aug 22, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> What irritates is the fact that some expect somebody else to have all the answers for them so that they make little or no effort themselves. For many of us, we had to do ALL the research ourselves because these forums did not exist.
> 
> With all the will in the world, we cannot provide ALL the answers to some posters' enquiries because we don't know their personal circumstances. Some posters, especially those who are trying to cheat the system or stay 'underneath the radar' will only give a partial statement of the circumstances surrounding their enquiry then wonder why they weren't told all the facts. Or the others who don't like it when they are told that their 'dream' is either an impossibility or illegal...


As a "researcher" who stumbled upon this website, I just want to add a little to this thread.
My husband and I have been researching the move to Spain for nearly 6 months...we actually have been talking about it for 10 years!

That said, we stumbled upon this site (and many others) for the simple fact that we are LOOKING FOR ANSWERS. We don't know anyone IN Spain. Consulates only give out certain information. The only resources we have are websites like these, government websites, cost of living websites like Numbeo etc.

I read this entire thread and apart from the bickering, there was really only a few replies that answered the initial request.
I love these forums. I really do. You can go to your exact relocation destiny, search what you are looking for (ie. home insurance) and find what others have said about it...isn't that the point of these forums??
I mean, it's called EXPATFORUMS....

You mention you did ALL the hard research and while many people MAY try to take an easy way out, I take total offence to you implying that I may be trying to take the easy way out. I have a total breakdown of potential costs. From that, I break it down to a weekly expense. I look at what income will be coming in and then go from there.

What a lot of people fail to realize is that many people who end up on this forum are trying to decide if they can move to Spain, so we NEED YOUR HELP! Many of you already live there. Why would you want to keep simple information from those who are trying to do the right thing?

Just my two cents....


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

misspamela said:


> As a "researcher" who stumbled upon this website, I just want to add a little to this thread.
> My husband and I have been researching the move to Spain for nearly 6 months...we actually have been talking about it for 10 years!
> 
> That said, we stumbled upon this site (and many others) for the simple fact that we are LOOKING FOR ANSWERS. We don't know anyone IN Spain. Consulates only give out certain information. The only resources we have are websites like these, government websites, cost of living websites like Numbeo etc.
> ...


I've not read the whole thread here, but my opinion is that this forum is a really useful tool for those who are looking to immigrate. You can learn so much, even the trivial bits and pieces. Yes, there are a few folk who did the move pre forums and had to learn the hard way, but it doesnt have to be like that today. . so you feel free to look thru the posts and to ask any questions you need to. Oh and ignore the bickering lol!!!

Jo xxx


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## misspamela (Aug 22, 2013)

jojo said:


> I've not read the whole thread here, but my opinion is that this forum is a really useful tool for those who are looking to immigrate. You can learn so much, even the trivial bits and pieces. Yes, there are a few folk who did the move pre forums and had to learn the hard way, but it doesnt have to be like that today. . so you feel free to look thru the posts and to ask any questions you need to. Oh and ignore the bickering lol!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


 :cheer2:You're awesome Jo!:cheer2:


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

misspamela said:


> You mention you did ALL the hard research and while many people MAY try to take an easy way out, I take total offence to you implying that I may be trying to take the easy way out.


Wow, that's a bit harsh.

I agree and empathise with everything Baldilocks has said in that post. Far too many people come here with half-baked ideas, have done little to no research of their own whatsoever, give out minimal information about themselves and their situation and then expect people here to give them all the answers. 

What makes it even worse, is that when given the harsh, cold facts of the situation and they realise their dream is shattered, they call you rude for telling them something they don't want to hear.

It happens here every single day.

No-one is saying that you personally have not done any research. From what I can tell the questions you're asking are perfectly reasonable ones for the purpose of collecting budgetary information. But not everyone is like you and not everyone has researched the situation as throughly as you have.

The advice Baldilocks is giving is good advice. There is no substitute whatsoever for doing your own research and finding out the answers to important questions. You can only make decisions based on the accuracy and veracity of the information you have at hand at the time you make it. If the information is wrong, out of date, unreliable or flawed, the decision you make based on that information will be equally flawed.

I'm personally doing exactly the same hard slog of research on another European City I'm considering purchasing a holiday flat in. That means looking at every single aspect of purchasing a property, working out budgets in terms of annual running costs, the legality of residency, tax implications on residency and non-residency and a whole myriad of issues all involved with purchasing a property in a European Country and what the implications of living in it for various periods of time involve.

There's no substitute for doing your own research and finding out the answers to all the questions you have.


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## misspamela (Aug 22, 2013)

zenkarma said:


> Wow, that's a bit harsh.
> 
> I agree and empathise with everything Baldilocks has said in that post. Far too many people come here with half-baked ideas, have done little to no research of their own whatsoever, give out minimal information about themselves and their situation and then expect people here to give them all the answers.
> 
> ...


Agreed. Never said I didn't agree 
Just wanted to clarify that not everyone tries to take the easy way out :nono:
And I by no means was attacking anyone (not Baldilocks, or anyone)...I was just stating that not everyone asking questions here should be thrown into the generalization that they are taking the easy way out... and on that note...

I will take JoJo's advise and avoid any bickering on here :focus:

:focus::focus::focus::focus:


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

misspamela said:


> As a "researcher" who stumbled upon this website, I just want to add a little to this thread.
> My husband and I have been researching the move to Spain for nearly 6 months...we actually have been talking about it for 10 years!
> 
> That said, we stumbled upon this site (and many others) for the simple fact that we are LOOKING FOR ANSWERS. We don't know anyone IN Spain. Consulates only give out certain information. The only resources we have are websites like these, government websites, cost of living websites like Numbeo etc.
> ...


An example:"We're moving to Spain next month, where should we live?" with no more information than that. We can only provide information about our experiences, what we know and facts. When people base their questions entirely on matters personal to themselves while providing no personal or background information. it gets very trying. And Yes, we've had the above question, more than once! That is the type of person I was getting at.

As for trying to hold back information where you get that idea I don't know. There is so much information that people could/should know that we have to be selective according to what the OP asks for, otherwise they end up with information overload and neglect to pay attention to something which may be important while omitting that which isn't


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

misspamela said:


> I was just stating that not everyone asking questions here should be thrown into the generalization that they are taking the easy way out...


I certainly didn't interpret Baldilocks's comments to mean that at all. He was aiming his comments at a very specific category of person, a category I might add that you do not fall into.

As has been said, far too many people come to the forum with little or no research of their own and expect all the answers to be handed to them on a plate, despite a lot of the time no-one actually knowing what their circumstances are.

I personally believe this forum is best utilised as an adjunct to your own research. In other words to fill in the blanks or unanswered questions you're struggling to find the answers to. For people who use it in that way, the wealth of knowledge and information available here is phenomenal. What it won't do however, is till you what you should do.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

zenkarma said:


> I certainly didn't interpret Baldilocks's comments to mean that at all. He was aiming his comments at a very specific category of person, a category I might add that you do not fall into.
> 
> As has been said, far too many people come to the forum with little or no research of their own and expect all the answers to be handed to them on a plate, despite a lot of the time no-one actually knowing what their circumstances are.
> 
> I personally believe this forum is best utilised as an adjunct to your own research. In other words to fill in the blanks or unanswered questions you're struggling to find the answers to. For people who use it in that way, the wealth of knowledge and information available here is phenomenal. What it won't do however, is till you what you should do.



I think that what annoys many existing posters are those who come on the forum and ask questions, but dont like the answers and get "shirty". Of course its fine to ask questions, thats the whole point of forums like this one and no one would argue that, but we do get occasionally those who either dont believe what is said or dont believe it applies to them. Thats frustrating, especially when its the same questions - altho not everyone reads thru the previous threads!

Always the top tip for anyone planning to immigrate is to visit as many times as possible with a list and get an idea, but thats not always possible and doesnt answer everything. So more questions are needed. 

Jo xxx


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## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

jojo said:


> I think that what annoys many existing posters are those who come on the forum and ask questions, but dont like the answers and get "shirty". Of course its fine to ask questions, thats the whole point of forums like this one and no one would argue that, but we do get occasionally those who either dont believe what is said or dont believe it applies to them. Thats frustrating, especially when its the same questions - altho not everyone reads thru the previous threads!
> 
> Always the top tip for anyone planning to immigrate is to visit as many times as possible with a list and get an idea, but thats not always possible and doesnt answer everything. So more questions are needed.
> 
> Jo xxx


Being a fairly new poster on here, I've found this forum to be one of the better expat ones around.
Sure some of the answers to questions can be taken the wrong way, but its usually those people who don't ask the right question or don't actually want to hear the right answer.
My wife and I have been looking to move to Spain for a couple of years, we have family in the area we are looking at, we have looked at costs over projected earnings compared with here in the UK. In fact we have travelled for visits at various times of the year, have spoken to many people AND we still have not decided the time is right yet.
The couple of threads I started had many good answers and advice, we still want to come over but for now three visits a year are enough for us (there not holidays as I end up fixing the gates, moving rocks and other stuff for the father in law)


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## misspamela (Aug 22, 2013)

So true. Although we have not made the trek over there to visit yet - we are in Canada, so its an expensive trek ;( , we do intend to visit in the near future.
We too are going to put our plans on pause for now...just not the right time for us too.


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