# Dog Poisoning Achelia



## expatme (Dec 4, 2013)

I have posted this to warn others and hope that it will be Ok to do that.

This is what Kathleen has written on Facebook today:

There are a million rumours and Chinese Whispers zooming around the internet about what happened in the park to my dog. Clearly damage control by the accused. So to clarify I have made this public so please feel free to share. What our experience was:

What occurred in Achelia village to the dog in the play-park? Let me put a face to that. It's me, this was my dog, this happened to us. Not a fictitious character made up by The Animal Party or a rival restaurant hell-bent on ruining some innocent couple's business. This happenned to us on Sunday 7/6/2015. I am hearing this man is a saint/he feeds strays/he owns dogs/ he's a good man???????????? This was my dog that was killed and I'll tell you the facts: We moved to Achelia Village four years ago. When we moved here all of the neighbours warned us that this Taverna is known to poison animals, they have all lost animals and not to walk your dogs near the restaurant and canal. Of course this is all hearsay and I simply ignored the rumours. This Taverna sits on the public park and the village just spent hundreds of thousands of Euros modernising this park, adding a football park, Amphi-theatre and swings, roundabout etc-This is where we regularly went with our kids. On Sunday my husband went with our kids and unfortunately did not put Thelma-Our little Pekingnese on a lead so she was wandering around the park. I went to the park in the car and told them to come home because we were going out.When they came home I asked where the dog was and my husband thought she, as per, was following but she was not. I told him I saw her heading towards the Taverna. Meanwhile our neighbours went to the park and found the dog frothing at the mouth and shaking and by the time he called the police and us the dog was dead. Our Muchtar's dog was poisoned last year and he believed it was The Taverna. All the village animals die in this park beside the Taverna. Up to thirty or possibly more. Two days before our dog was poisoned a second dog belonging to the Muchtar was poisoned at the Taverna but they got her to the vet in time. My husband and I and all the dog owning neighbours went to the Taverna. The owner immediately became defensive and told me to 'F*** off. I don't speak to English people. I am Greek. F*** off back to your own country' And to the locals that were there he was shouting 'F*** off. Prove it. Prove it' At this point all the local kids came down and showed us where they saw him distributing poison-It was stuffed in pasta and distributed throughout the children's play park, under the swings and in the Amphi-theatre. This is where all the children play. Can you even imagine how concerned we all are in this village? That someone is stuffing deadly poison where the children are? Can you even begin to contemplate the horror of that? Of course we called the police who came almost immediately and we discovered a packet of Lanate poison behind his kitchen, on his property and the pasta. The police asked the wife 'Is this yours?' She said 'Yes. It's plant food. It's not poison. It's for my plants' So then he came out and they asked him 'Is this yours?' 'No' He said 'I don't know anything about that' The police said 'But it is here on your property' He said 'Well maybe someone put it there. Like her!!! The English woman' *ME* The police said 'Ok we are going to bag it and analyse it for your finger-prints' Which is what they did. This is my experience NOT someone trying to ruin the reputation of a business but this happened to ME and my children. There is poison IN with the children. Illegal poison with Turkish writing on the back so he brought it from the north. This is not hearsay, this is not a Chinese whisper this happened to us and my dog was whisked away by some village 'helper' and burnt immediately so the police cannot do a post-mortem. To the people that are on-line screaming about how angry they are about someone's business being affected????....How angry do you think I am??????? How angry that I could be talking about my child's death today or another child's death!!!!!!!! Think about that reality!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This illegal poison is horrific: It freezes every muscle in the body including the heart muscle while the excruciating pain rips through the body and the animal foams at the mouth while shaking violently and cannot breathe because their lungs are frozen. Imagine THAT happening to your child!!!!!!!! The 'innocent' Taverna owners rely on tourists and ex pats for business because the Cypriots and ALL the villagers refuse to go there because they suspected he's been killing their animals for years. He has allegedly been boasting about it!!!!!! OF COURSE they are lashing out and pointing fingers and pleading innocence. Up until now he has only been suspected of murdering the locals' dogs and cats who got angry but did nothing. I WILL DO LOTS OF THINGS-TRUST ME. So maybe these 'out-raged' people can put a lid on their anger and think about innocent animals and innocent children instead of two desperate business owners drowning in their own guilt and grasping at any fairy story that makes them appear innocent 'We have dogs' 'We love animals' 'We feed the strays' (Well THAT we do know) 'We like British people' 'It's this animal party causing trouble' All words, all smacking of desperation and meanwhile from my bedroom window I can see the burnt ashes of the beautiful Thelma and am left holding her babies. I Thank God every minute I am not talking about a child. The police WILL be charging him with possessing illegal Lanate poison. Please for the sake of animals and children share this. Don't let it take the death of a child to act. ACT NOW AND SHARE THIS.

My goal in life is to be as good a person as my dogs already think I am!


Posts: 8598
Joined: 15 Mar 2007 07:14


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

Wow, I hope this evil person gets his comeuppance. People like this need to be made an example of and given a long prison sentence.


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## expatme (Dec 4, 2013)

The latest news is that the police are going to prosecute him. Should all be in the newspapers soon.


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## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

I don't know the area but I'd like to know the name of the Taverna so it can be avoided.

Pete


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

Brilliant


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## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

A quick search has shown extensive numbers of posts on threads on other forums and 1 report in the Cyprus Mail. Further back in time there is at least 1 other thread reporting the same events with respect to this taverna owner.

It is Akis Taverna for those who want to be aware.

Pete


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

Yes I 've just found out it is Akis. They have very good reviews on trip advisor with people saying they owners are friendly. I think that their reputation is going to take a huge nose dive from now on.
I will spread the word not to use the place and I hope everyone else does too.


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

I know this forum has no naming and shaming policy but in this case as there is evidence and the reports are in the local papers I feel it is justified to allow this tavern to be named. I hope the word gets around not only to expats and locals but also that tourists hear about him and his place is closed down.
Lets stop this awful man from profiting from British residents and tourists. 
Its time to stand up and be counted against this barbaric practice.


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## hiatusxenia (May 6, 2013)

It truly is a barbarous practice and it's always the poor animals which suffer. It must be nearly 25 years since one of my beautiful Pointers was poisoned and I will never forget it as long as I live.


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## Baywatch (Mar 30, 2014)

Veronica said:


> I know this forum has no naming and shaming policy but in this case as there is evidence and the reports are in the local papers I feel it is justified to allow this tavern to be named. I hope the word gets around not only to expats and locals but also that tourists hear about him and his place is closed down.
> Lets stop this awful man from profiting from British residents and tourists.
> Its time to stand up and be counted against this barbaric practice.


What with innocent until proven guilty???????????


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## David_&_Letitia (Jul 8, 2012)

Baywatch said:


> What with innocent until proven guilty???????????


Lanate - a banned substance and the most commonly used poison used against animals in Cyprus - no longer legally available, was found on his premises.

Smoking gun?


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## David_&_Letitia (Jul 8, 2012)

Some posts now starting to appear on Trip Advisor regarding the poisonings:

Akis Tavern, Paphos - Restaurant Reviews, Phone Number & Photos - TripAdvisor


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## expatme (Dec 4, 2013)

Baywatch said:


> What with innocent until proven guilty???????????


May I suggest that you read the Full report. This man is Guilty without any doubt.


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## Baywatch (Mar 30, 2014)

David_&_Letitia said:


> Lanate - a banned substance and the most commonly used poison used against animals in Cyprus - no longer legally available, was found on his premises.
> 
> Smoking gun?


Lanate and much other stronger poisons will take me ten minutes to get in Pissouri. Can be bought everywhere in the north.


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## David_&_Letitia (Jul 8, 2012)

Baywatch said:


> Lanate and much other stronger poisons will take me ten minutes to get in Pissouri. Can be bought everywhere in the north.


The same could be said for firearms, knives, knuckle dusters and other offensive weapons.

Availability does not give such items legitimacy!

Is that really the best defence you can put forward Anders?


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

Anders the term used was no longer LEGALLY available. It is common knowledge that it can still be obtained by those unscrupulous people who want to use it. 
Unfortunately there are still very many people who are happy to use it to poison helpless creatures.
Its a bit like drugs not being LEGALLY available but if you want them they can be obtained.


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## David_&_Letitia (Jul 8, 2012)

David_&_Letitia said:


> Some posts now starting to appear on Trip Advisor regarding the poisonings:
> 
> Akis Tavern, Paphos - Restaurant Reviews, Phone Number & Photos - TripAdvisor


Unfortunately, the 2 Trip Advisor posts mentioning the animal abuse have now been removed. I must admit that I'm surprised that Trip Advisor have seen fit to ignore such posts - each had more than 20 members (including me) finding them "helpful". Instead, they have let a post remain, which does not truly review the taverna, but stated:

*"The last two bad comments about dogs are a vicious lie started by someone who wants to own the taverna and can't get it. Please ignore and try for yourself"*

For those of you who did not read the bad reviews, this is what they said (note that this was a screenshot this morning, and there were many more "helpful" votes added before they were removed. I thought that they may be removed before the day ended, hence the screenshot):


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

Posts are being put on trip advisor about the poisoning. Mine was taken down after 24 hours but others appear and are visible for hours before being deleted. 
If everyone goes on there and posts for people to avoid this tavern maybe enough people will see them for the news to spread and take this guy down. Lets do what we can to close this hell hole.
Lets teach this man he cant go around poisoning innocent animals.


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## Baywatch (Mar 30, 2014)

David_&_Letitia said:


> The same could be said for firearms, knives, knuckle dusters and other offensive weapons.
> 
> Availability does not give such items legitimacy!
> 
> Is that really the best defence you can put forward Anders?


I don't defend anyone, I only say that I or you or anyone else on this forum has the right to judge anyone. That is what we have courts for. To many has been accused without grounds. And to do it in an open forum like this is probably criminal. Remember he is Cypriot, you are not.


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## David_&_Letitia (Jul 8, 2012)

Veronica said:


> Posts are being put on trip advisor about the poisoning. Mine was taken down after 24 hours but others appear and are visible for hours before being deleted.
> If everyone goes on there and posts for people to avoid this tavern maybe enough people will see them for the news to spread and take this guy down. Lets do what we can to close this hell hole.
> Lets teach this man he cant go around poisoning innocent animals.


I totally agree Veronica. There are estimated to be 26,000 British expats in Cyprus. We have influence through our spending power and through Forums like this and also through social media like Facebook. This issue needs our support.


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## David_&_Letitia (Jul 8, 2012)

Baywatch said:


> I don't defend anyone, I only say that I or you or anyone else on this forum has the right to judge anyone. That is what we have courts for. To many has been accused without grounds. And to do it in an open forum like this is probably criminal. Remember he is Cypriot, you are not.


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"

Edmund Burke


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

All of the local forums have threads about this matter. Lots of people who want to take this man down.


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## Baywatch (Mar 30, 2014)

David_&_Letitia said:


> I totally agree Veronica. There are estimated to be 26,000 British expats in Cyprus. We have influence through our spending power and through Forums like this and also through social media like Facebook. This issue needs our support.


If you one second believe that writing in tripadvisor will change anything except that tourist will come in less numbers and put Cyprus in even more **** you must see the world with pink glasses. Idiots will always be around. Here, in Sweden, in UK and everywhere else. I am quite sure that 95% of all dog poisonings are not deliberate. The other 5 % is done by idiots, who will not be stopped by reviews in Tripadvisor. Btw, it is not sure all of them are Cypriots


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## Baywatch (Mar 30, 2014)

Veronica said:


> All of the local forums have threads about this matter. Lots of people who want to take this man down.


And you mean that is acceptable. Private police, judges and hengmen.

I really thought this forum was different, but I was wrong. So now all name and shame is free. Congratulations


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## David_&_Letitia (Jul 8, 2012)

Baywatch said:


> If you one second believe that writing in tripadvisor will change anything except that tourist will come in less numbers and put Cyprus in even more **** you must see the world with pink glasses. Idiots will always be around. Here, in Sweden, in UK and everywhere else. I am quite sure that 95% of all dog poisonings are not deliberate. The other 5 % is done by idiots, who will not be stopped by reviews in Tripadvisor. Btw, it is not sure all of them are Cypriots


Anders,

I have always had the greatest respect for you and your views. I have also avidly followed your posts with great vigour in your previous guise as "Veganders".

*However,* we have a saying in the UK:

"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck".

This man has been witnessed by more than one expat to have abused animals. He is alleged to have poisoned cats and dogs, and has boasted to expats to this effect, which has been posted on social media and expat Forums. He has been "fingered" by local children as having laid poisoned pasta in a children's playground. His property has been recently searched and Lanate, an illegal poison has been discovered by the police. The story is in the public domain having appeared in the Cyprus Mail. What more can I say?

PS. I am 60 years old and have served for 42 years in the military. I certainly do not see things with rose tinted specs, I can assure you!


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## hiatusxenia (May 6, 2013)

Well, you can ALL have a go at me now, because I am going to suggest a link between this thread and another, previous one. 

David & Letitia, we also have a saying in Greek which equates to your quacking one and is similar to the English one of 'no smoke without fire'!

However, I think that this post has similarities to the one posted recently by someone who had found a stray dog.

Anders suggested that dog rescuers who work so hard do so to make themselves feel good and the general consensus was that a cull was an excellent idea. Given the numbers involved, that's probably the only option...

However, when you look at: https://m.facebook.com/pages/Fudge-found-my-forever-home/478280472311311

or

https://m.facebook.com/pages/Hendricks-found-my-forever-home/1108160755866809

to name just two of many, I can't help thinking that whatever we can do must make some difference, whether fundraising, fostering, adopting, badgering officials AND, last but not least, bringing attention to these vile poisoning attacks and general cruelty. 

BTW, did any of you read Kelvin Mackenzie's recent article (in The Sun, unfortunately!). He wrote about how while on a recent holiday in Paphos how shocked he was at the state of the stray dogs he saw. After a couple of days there followed a reply from the Director of the CTO in London. I won't go into it all here, but I do hope and believe that concerted pressure WILL make some sort of difference eventually. 

To paraphrase the quote: if no one does or says anything against wrongdoing, then nothing will ever, ever change. 

On a personal note, and as someone who had the most beautiful young dog poisoned - and who painfully, shockingly died in front of my two young sons - it really is a miracle that no child has been poisoned yet. This really must stop.


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

Baywatch said:


> And you mean that is acceptable. Private police, judges and hengmen.
> 
> I really thought this forum was different, but I was wrong. So now all name and shame is free. Congratulations


When the information is already out there so openly in the public domain not only in forums and on facebook but also in the Cyprus mail and it is a case as serious as this, then yes naming and shaming in this case is IMO totally acceptable.
Too many people have witnessed what happened, heard him with his own mouth tell them he poisons dogs and cats. Do you think all of these people are lying? Do you think the police are just investigating him for fun? Do you think the animal party are investigating him for fun?
You really amaze me Anders, you claim to love dogs, your living is caring for other people dogs yet you would be happy to let this man get away with the terrible things he does because he claims that all of these people are lying?
So go and show him your support, go and eat at his murderous establishment and shake the hand of this dog and cat killer. would you still be defending him if a child had picked up and eaten the pasta he laced with poison and put in that playground?


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## Baywatch (Mar 30, 2014)

David_&_Letitia said:


> Anders,
> 
> I have always had the greatest respect for you and your views. I have also avidly followed your posts with great vigour in your previous guise as "Veganders".
> 
> ...


Still this man has not been accused by the authorities, tried or sentenced in court.

Not one case of dog poisoning is what I know of tried in court.

But I agree that if he is guilty it is disgusting.

Forum Rules 1.

Expatforum.com is an interactive site. Please treat others here the way you wish to be treated, with respect, and without insult or personal attack. *Personal attacks will NOT be tolerated*. *Trolling on this site is not tolerated*, that being deliberately inflammatory posts, and trolls will be removed from the site immediately.

But perhaps, if a moderator allows it, it is OK

This is my last say in this thread and in the forum


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## David_&_Letitia (Jul 8, 2012)

Baywatch said:


> Still this man has not been accused by the authorities, tried or sentenced in court.


Neither was Osama Bin Laden.


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## MacManiac (Jan 25, 2012)

"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--
Of cabbages--and kings--
And why the sea is boiling hot--
And whether pigs have wings."

As a long-time contributor to this forum, this is one of the few times when such a potentially controversial topic has been discussed. As such, peoples' attitudes have hardened and I can sense the anger in some postings.

There appear to be two schools of thought, which have come about by the decision to "name and shame" the tavern where the alleged incident took place. Of course the name of the tavern, and its location, are now in the public domain. That is the power of the internet and, like Pandora's Box, once opened it can never be put back.

On the one hand the man in question has had serious allegations made against him, and these allegations are all over the internet. That is how the internet works and why social media is so powerful. But, and I can understand the principle only too well, all of us are innocent until proven guilty. If he is guilty by all means string him up from the nearest lamppost.

We keyboard warriors have to consider that we are not judge, jury and executioner. By all means let us protest and put forward our opinions whilst remembering that our opinions are just that - opinions and not facts.

I find it fascinating reading on other well-known forums the anger and vitriol about this incident. I even wrote about it on my blog. What is even more fascinating is that forum owners are allowing this discussion to take place. One forum, in particular, is always warning its members about publishing damning reviews about restaurants as - if memory serves - a member was taken to court and had to pay considerable damages to the owner of the restaurant concerned. What had he done? He had published his opinion. There is Free Speech and there is Libel, and that is always a difficult line to draw.

Sadly, once again, this desperately sad incident will place Cyprus in the spotlight again. Will it damage the tourist trade? If so, is it a price worth paying to stop these barbaric practices?

I am reminded that man sits on top of the food chain, and rears animals to be used as food. Thank goodness in civilised countries animal welfare demands that these animals are humanely killed. But there are places across the world where animals are slaughtered without any restrictions.

A final postscript to this ... the lady whose dog died and her family must be so deeply distressed and will never, ever forget what has happened. My sympathies for her know no bounds. But just as distressing is the apparent effect on animals of this poison. Not only was a family pet killed but it caused me to think about the lonely feral cats whose end must have been as awful. I am an animal lover (cats and dogs) and, although I don't lie awake worrying about porcupines or llamas, to cause suffering to any living thing is abhorrent.

Quo vadis? Just as the overwhelming number of abandoned dogs and feral cats appears to be an insurmountable problem for Cyprus, right-minded people must continue to help and care for the unfortunate creatures. That is something to lie awake and worry about.


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## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

It might be a good time to stop and consider the phrase “Innocent until proven guilty”. I am sure that back in history this represented a good guiding principle for the construction of laws and legal systems but it is clear nowadays that it is just a cliché.

Throughout the world there are people detained or imprisoned who have not been proven guilty. Indeed holding someone in jail awaiting trial is doing just that but I doubt anyone objective would call for the end of that kind of detention when the person involved is likely to be found guilty or is known to be dangerous.

Society has never just relied on courts to prove innocence or guilt. This has occurred in many ways: the act of sending someone to “Coventry”, the terrible lynchings of blacks in the USA; the destruction of reputation by the media and so on.

So why on earth do we cling to this outmoded cliché as a truth and guiding principle?

I think that here is where Anders has a problem. He is relying on the cliché as a truth in a case where facts and common sense pre-empt any judicial action and thus invalidate the cliché.

The situation with the taverna owner is one where we seek to see justice knowing that justice and the law are often not the same thing. This is not a unique charge against the man. A search of the other forums will expose earlier times when the same situation has occurred. The evidence is overwhelming and the witnesses real. Additionally the need to protect future possible victims, be they human or otherwise, should override any principles of innocence as they often do in legal systems.

So I hope Anders you will read this and try to understand our view and reconsider the position you have entrenched yourself in. It would be a shame if you threw your toys out of the pram and removed your presence from the forum as your opinions are valued, respected and debated. If you don't wish to see the situation with different eyes that is fair enough but do understand that none of us have to agree on everything and debate is healthy and enlightening.

Pete


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## hiatusxenia (May 6, 2013)

Anders, I for one will be very disappointed if you leave the forum. I have learnt so much from your thoughtful posts and tips: hibiscus tea & olive oil/butter are just two which spring to mind!


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

hiatusxenia said:


> Anders, I for one will be very disappointed if you leave the forum. I have learnt so much from your thoughtful posts and tips: hibiscus tea & olive oil/butter are just two which spring to mind!


And Kombucha


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## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

I though that was Elton John.

Pete


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

PeteandSylv said:


> I though that was Elton John.
> 
> Pete


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: Very funny Pete.
Seriously though, that Kombucha is good stuff.


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## virgil (May 3, 2012)

hiatusxenia said:


> It truly is a barbarous practice and it's always the poor animals which suffer. It must be nearly 25 years since one of my beautiful Pointers was poisoned and I will never forget it as long as I live.


I thought you might like to see my Pointer, Cody. He is 3 months old:


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## hiatusxenia (May 6, 2013)

I always like to see a Pointer! The most beautiful dogs. Thank you Virgil!


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## zach21uk (Jun 26, 2014)

I haven't read through every single post in this topic as I was sickened by some of what I was reading.

In short I will simply add this - to all those who are speaking out AGAINST the owner of this tavern - I will buy each of you a drink. 

For those speaking in defense of the owner of this tavern................all I can say is "Ugh!".

The state of animal welfare on this island is absolutely terrible and idiots like this who think they can get away with illegal poisoning deserve to be victims of their own crime to be quite frank.

With the number of stray animals on this island, it is going to be a VERY long road to deal with the problem, but cullings, poisonings, et cetera are NOT the way.

I strongly admire people like Dawn at Tala Cat Monestary who pour their heart and soul into helping fight this problem the RIGHT away and I not only admire them, but I support them both morally AND financially. 

Wouldn't it be oh so damn right ironic now if some advanced alien race came along in their fancy space ship, decided that humanity was getting a little bit too overpopulous and diseased and decided to do a little bit of culling themselves.............Hopefully they will start with those who suggest this method as a solution to the animal problem here.


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

Education and enforcing the new animal rights laws are the only ways to deal with this problem. Sadly though I fear that will take a long time.


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## Baywatch (Mar 30, 2014)

zach21uk said:


> I haven't read through every single post in this topic as I was sickened by some of what I was reading.
> 
> In short I will simply add this - to all those who are speaking out AGAINST the owner of this tavern - I will buy each of you a drink.
> 
> ...


Zach, Do you have a grand solution? It seem so. No one else seem to have it. 170000 now will be 180000 next year and then 200000. And more and more of them will roam the streets because the shelters are full. The bigger pacs of strays that roam the streets, the more dangerous they will become, looking for food. Look at the situation in Bucharest, where more then 10 people every year get killed by pacs of stray dogs. When the first human die from Echinococcus, hell will break loose and a very rapid solution will be used.
No one has defended the man in the Taverna, it was all about "innocent until proven guilty"
It is a cultural thing that will take very long time to change. But change will come. I meet daily young Cypriot dog owners that will do everything for their pets. Unfortunately I also see a lot of dogs in shelters and pounds, that is abandoned by it expat owners

https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Echinococcosis


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## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

zach21uk said:


> With the number of stray animals on this island, it is going to be a VERY long road to deal with the problem, but cullings, poisonings, et cetera are NOT the way.
> 
> I strongly admire people like Dawn at Tala Cat Monestary who pour their heart and soul into helping fight this problem the RIGHT away and I not only admire them, but I support them both morally AND financially.
> 
> Wouldn't it be oh so damn right ironic now if some advanced alien race came along in their fancy space ship, decided that humanity was getting a little bit too overpopulous and diseased and decided to do a little bit of culling themselves.............Hopefully they will start with those who suggest this method as a solution to the animal problem here.


A quite emotional response from the heart but avoiding the brain I fear.

Firstly let's clarify that poisonings such as those discussed in this thread are illegal, immoral and can only be condemned and hopefully punished. Cullings are something entirely different and are a method used all over the world to deal with excess populations, diseased populations and dangerous populations of various animals. They can be carried out in a humane way with no suffering for the animals. It is a tasteless topic I agree but sometimes one that is unavoidable.

Those good folk who dedicate their time and efforts to saving and helping animals such as the lady you mention are carrying out very effective work for the few animals they deal with. All of them will tell you they are overwhelmed by the numbers of animals they have to deal with and most need to turn further animals away because they have neither the facilities or finance to take them on. Nor can they take on and deal with the huge numbers of feral cats that are on this island.

As such the vast numbers of "excess" animals roaming loose that Anders has described are not helped or affected by the sanctuaries and rescues. This means that their populations are free to reproduce and will do so exponentially until the scenarios Anders refers to occur.

There simply is not the ability, personnel, finance or number of hours in the day to capture and neuter these animals to prevent their population exploding. Nor is there the slightest hope of rehoming them as pets as their quantity is too great and feral cats are very difficult to tame.

This is why I conclude that a humane cull is the only solution. Now while you may glibly state that this is not the way and state that I should be murdered for suggesting it, I would like to hear you offer a realistic alternative solution, something your post is deeply lacking.

Your final paragraph is rather embarrassing to read in it's naivety and comic book mentality. Had you thought this through you would realise that an alien race is not required. The human race very effectively carries out culls of it's own kind. In case you missed them I might suggest you read up on the effects people like Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Idi Amin and Mao Tse Tung had on their population by design. Or even consider the effects of the 1st World War on human population as well as horse population. Closer to home you might also consider the history of your previous country too.

So thank you for suggesting I should be murdered for suggesting a cull, thank you for whinging about the suggestions in this thread but I don't thank you for failing to offer any kind of constructive solution to this serious problem.

Pete


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## Baywatch (Mar 30, 2014)

PeteandSylv said:


> A quite emotional response from the heart but avoiding the brain I fear.
> 
> Firstly let's clarify that poisonings such as those discussed in this thread are illegal, immoral and can only be condemned and hopefully punished. Cullings are something entirely different and are a method used all over the world to deal with excess populations, diseased populations and dangerous populations of various animals. They can be carried out in a humane way with no suffering for the animals. It is a tasteless topic I agree but sometimes one that is unavoidable.
> 
> ...


There is another bigger danger lurking around the corner that no one has yet mentioned.

The republic is still considered rabies free, one of few countries in Europe. This means that dog exporters from f.ex Russia to Australia can use Cyprus as a middle station for 6 months to avoid quarantine in Australia. 

But the north is not. With the growing numbers of stray pacs roaming around, without any need of using a border opening, this can soon change. 
Rabies infected dogs are very dangerous and aggressive. Often involved in dog fights, where the virus is spread to the opponent.

These dogs are also very dangerous to humans. To get a bite from an infected dog is nothing to play with.

And just an added info about the Echinococcosis. There is a village in the north, sorry I have forgot the name, that now has started to euthanize dogs because the number of dogs with the dangerous tape worm is raising rapidly. This is because they have an active program to find these dogs. According to the state vest in the republic, no such program is active in the south, because of lack of funds


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## debs21 (Mar 13, 2013)

Not sure how much the amount is but been told it is significant is/was actually provided by the government to help towards the charities and pounds ....none or very little gets to where it should go. As in so many other areas many people need to questioned as to where allocated money goes for these projects and why it never makes it to the intended recipient/s.


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## Baywatch (Mar 30, 2014)

debs21 said:


> Not sure how much the amount is but been told it is significant is/was actually provided by the government to help towards the charities and pounds ....none or very little gets to where it should go. As in so many other areas many people need to questioned as to where allocated money goes for these projects and why it never makes it to the intended recipient/s.


If you refer to money for neutering programs, these money is not paid out any more.


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## debs21 (Mar 13, 2013)

No I was told a certain amount of money is allocated by EU (somewhere) for the charities/pounds here in Cyprus to help funds etc, BUt it doesn't make it to where it is needed, so where does it go?


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## zach21uk (Jun 26, 2014)

My post was emotional, from the heart and I make no apologies for it because it is both morally and ethically correct.

Why should we have the right to decide that a given species has become over populous and thus needs to be controlled? 

I view all life equally and I would no more kill a cat or a dog than I would another human being. We must all share this earth. Just because we happen to be at or near the top of the food chain does not give us that right.

Pete, you brought up the likes of Hitler. People like this have been recognized by history as monsters and quite rightly so. Wars were fought and won for that very reason. They were monsters who were absolutely misguided in their views and the world did not stand for it. How many people died for the ideal that Jews and so called “non Aryans” have as much right to exist as the rest of us?

You think that my last statement naive and comical – well, it was intended to be both comical and sarcastic – an exaggerated but not at all unrealistic eventuality that could very well happen one day _(as was my eye for an eye statement)_. A higher life form might indeed view humanity in the same way that folks here are viewing animals. Whether you believe in that kind of thing or not is irrelevant. It’s inside the realms of possibility and IF it did happen, would we as a race not be just as outraged at this alien races gall and presumptuousness that they dare judge that we need to be put down? 

PLEASE tell me that the point I am making here does not escape you. I am not naïve in any sense of the word. In fact, if you really are failing to understand the point of that statement, then it is perhaps you who are naïve.



> Look at the situation in Bucharest, where more than 10 people every year get killed by packs of stray dogs.


Anders - I really do not see the point of this statement. I counter this statement by asking how many people in Bucharest are killed every year by fellow human beings. I bet you the number is far higher. Are you saying we should cull those humans as well as those dogs?

Both you and Pete asked if I have a “grand” or “constructive” solution for the problem! Well, quite frankly the answer is yes and all it requires is a little bit of effort and a little bit of time, some money and of course a bit of patience!

Someone (not sure if it was here or another forum) stated that if every vet on the island turned their attention to the problem, it would barely make a dent. 

But actually it would not only make a dent, it would solve the problem very swiftly. 

Let’s do some basic number numbers – let’s assume a rather modest 5000 vets on the island. There are probably quite a few more than this, but better to be low than high. 

5000 vets neutering / spaying & vaccinating three cats per day, would result in 15000 cats per day being neutered. If there are a million stray cats on the island (there are probably more), then it would take just 70 days to neuter and spay every stray on the island. In one full year, at a rate of three cats per vet per day, 5475000 cats could be neutered/spayed and vaccinated.

You may or may not be aware that Paphiakos operate a free neutering / spaying program for stray cats and they get through quite a few more than three cats per day. 

Not only this, but they will also provide cat traps to anyone who wishes to have them, and these traps are quite effective in capturing strays. 

My wife and I obtained two of these traps recently from Paphiakos and captured 5 strays in the space of 30 minutes. We took them all down to their clinic, and 24 hours later, we were called to come and pick them up and return them to where we captured them. What was the cost of this to us? 30 minutes of our time plus the time and petrol it took to drive to and from the clinic. We have been continuing to do this and have been making an impact in our village.

If enough people got involved in such programs and if enough programs existed across the island, I think you would find that this problem could be dealt with easily inside of one year. 

I absolutely believe that this program operated by Paphiakos is the correct model for solving this problem island-wide.

That is not fantasy. That is not unrealistic. It is a hard fact and I would challenge you to disprove that this is an effective solution.

Folks like like Dawn at the Tala Cat Monastery ARE overwhelmed, but only because there are not enough people like her who actually try to make a difference. 

There is no culling necessary. The solution to the problem requires a little bit of time, a little bit of money (relative to the grand scheme of things) and ENOUGH PEOPLE who actually care enough to try and solve the problem.

There is no such thing as a _HUMANE CULLING_ – humane is just a word that we like to put in front of a disgusting act to try and make ourselves feel better about it. A culling is a culling, killing is killing and murder is murder, regardless of what buzz word one chooses to put in front of it.

Could you imagine someone trying to justify murder by calling it a “humane murder”?

As David quoted earlier: 

_"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". _

Never has a more poignant statement ever been made than this statement of Edmond Burke’s. It Is a quote that I remind myself of often, every single time I see something that I feel is wrong, or cruel, or unjust.


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## Baywatch (Mar 30, 2014)

zach21uk said:


> My post was emotional, from the heart and I make no apologies for it because it is both morally and ethically correct.
> 
> Why should we have the right to decide that a given species has become over populous and thus needs to be controlled?
> 
> ...


You have to redo your math Zach. There is 68 veterinary clinics on the island so I would assume that there is not more then the double amount of vets.

Rest I will answer later

If you want me to find out the exact numbers of registered vets on the island I will ofc do


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## zach21uk (Jun 26, 2014)

Even if the number of vets is so low, 140 vets on the entire island _(which I do not believe to be true, I would be surprised if there were less than 68 in Nicosia alone)_, at three per day that is still capacity to deal with 150000 animals per year. At five per day its 255000 per year. It would take a little bit longer, but its still feasable.

Plus, with enough attention drawn to the problem, a program could be established where vets from other EU countries come en-masse to Cyprus and help deal with the issue. Its not impossible.

EDIT: A quick cursory search online and I have already found over 100 registered vets and in my experience, for every one you find online in Cyprus, there are 10 more without any web presence.


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## Baywatch (Mar 30, 2014)

zach21uk said:


> My post was emotional, from the heart and I make no apologies for it because it is both morally and ethically correct.
> 
> Why should we have the right to decide that a given species has become over populous and thus needs to be controlled?
> 
> ...


Zach the Bucharest point I will not even answer. If you have the opinion that there is no difference between humans killing each other and rabid dogs killing innocent children, then we have nothing to discuss.

But your other statement. That we have no right to interfere.
OK lets play with that. It mean that all pounds and shelters must be closed. No feeding permitted. It will probably lead to a lower total in a couple of years, because nature will eliminate the week ones, not save them as it is done by human interference. The weeker dogs will be either starving to death, or be killed by stronger dogs or sicknesses. Is that what you want? It must be less human.


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## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

Originally Posted by *zach21uk* 

_My post was emotional, from the heart and I make no apologies for it because it is both morally and ethically correct._ So no other opinions can be debated or suggested because they must be morally and/or ethically wrong? Not only naive but a rather self-centred approach.

_Why should we have the right to decide that a given species has become over populous and thus needs to be controlled?_ Because humankind have the brain power to think and make decisions, the benefit of history and experience and are motivated to self preservation.

_I view all life equally and I would no more kill a cat or a dog than I would another human being. We must all share this earth. Just because we happen to be at or near the top of the food chain does not give us that right._ Please remember your words next time you enjoy some lountza or a pork chop.

Even if your statistics and maths weren't questionable the process you describe is born of naivety as no plan of this nature could be organised or made to work. Even if it did you have not proposed what would happen to the neutered cats? Are they to be released again to continue their lives in the wild in the hope that they won't starve or come to some other unpleasant fate? Or perhaps there will be compulsory cat homing, I'm sure you could take in another 20.

I will also make the point of priorities. In a country where there has been a huge increase in poverty and people are starving, any available money is better spent in assisting them from poverty than neutering cats. This would be morally and ethically correct because mankind is at the top of the food chain.

Pete


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## Baywatch (Mar 30, 2014)

zach21uk said:


> Even if the number of vets is so low, 140 vets on the entire island _(which I do not believe to be true, I would be surprised if there were less than 68 in Nicosia alone)_, at three per day that is still capacity to deal with 150000 animals per year. At five per day its 255000 per year. It would take a little bit longer, but its still feasable.
> 
> Plus, with enough attention drawn to the problem, a program could be established where vets from other EU countries come en-masse to Cyprus and help deal with the issue. Its not impossible.
> 
> EDIT: A quick cursory search online and I have already found over 100 registered vets and in my experience, for every one you find online in Cyprus, there are 10 more without any web presence.


Zach, all of them has to be registered in the Vet association. I just checked. The association has 258 member vets. 80% private and the rest state vets.

There is another flaw in your math. You dont consider how many pups and kittens that is born every day, the year round.


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## zach21uk (Jun 26, 2014)

258 is a lot better than the 100 on which I ran my 2nd set of numbers on. The problem could be solved in a year or less and it would be the right thing to do. As for returning them to the wild, yes, why not? Felines have thrived for thousands of years in the wild, as have thousands of other species. It is humanity that is the destructive factor in the existence of most creatures.

Regardless, I have my opinions which I have shared, as you have yours. Arguing or trying to convince each other anything other than what we each believe is more than likely pointless, so I am choosing to take the high road and leave it at that.


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## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

zach21uk said:


> Regardless, I have my opinions which I have shared, as you have yours. Arguing or trying to convince each other anything other than what we each believe is more than likely pointless, so I am choosing to take the high road and leave it at that.


The whole point of forums like this is to discuss and debate topics enabling others to share objective views. If you refuse to do this because others don't instantly agree with your opinion, you will hardly have a chance to alter their's.

In any case may I suggest that for any future topic you remember that you should be discussing the topic not the people discussing the topic. In your first post you made this mistake in a rather unpleasant way.

Pete


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## Baywatch (Mar 30, 2014)

zach21uk said:


> 258 is a lot better than the 100 on which I ran my 2nd set of numbers on. The problem could be solved in a year or less and it would be the right thing to do. As for returning them to the wild, yes, why not? Felines have thrived for thousands of years in the wild, as have thousands of other species. It is humanity that is the destructive factor in the existence of most creatures.
> 
> Regardless, I have my opinions which I have shared, as you have yours. Arguing or trying to convince each other anything other than what we each believe is more than likely pointless, so I am choosing to take the high road and leave it at that.


Everyone has the right to his own opinion. Mine is that your "solution" is impossible and the 228 vets would not even keep up with the number new born every day. But that is my opinion. Perhaps if there were 5000 vets dedicated to the task, but there are not. End of discussion


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## hiatusxenia (May 6, 2013)

Zach, I think you and your wife are amazing - so soon after arriving in Cyprus - to be involved so quickly. 

I agree with you. If everyone played a part the numbers could be brought down considerably. Surely that is better than not doing anything at all? Your idea of bringing vets in from other countries is also a good one. 

Btw, it is correct that Cyprus and other countries are given funds from the EU to cope with strays - which is supposed to support the pounds, make them more humane and enable the volunteers to help more animals. This money never reaches them.

Also, Mr Rossides of the CTO in London has alleged in a letter to a British newspaper that there is a 'fund' supported and contributed to, by the restaurants and hotels in Cyprus which is apparently giving money to go to help the various strays.

I would be very interested to know if anyone has ever heard of that??


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## wizard4 (Feb 3, 2013)

I am totally appalled by what has happened, incredibly sad, how awfull for all concerned, as for the forum well everyone whether they be man woman or child has the right to express an opinion, without fear or predjudice, (did i spell that right).
However its not always wise to say what ya really think!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have a nice day


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## Kenbophaw (Apr 25, 2015)

Just moved to Cyprus and picked up on this. Has the individual concered been formally charged at all?


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## hiatusxenia (May 6, 2013)

Kenbophaw said:


> Just moved to Cyprus and picked up on this. Has the individual concered been formally charged at all?


I very much doubt it. It happens all the time the only difference in this case is that the individual concerned apparently boasted about it. Others on here may know more.


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

Kenbophaw said:


> Just moved to Cyprus and picked up on this. Has the individual concered been formally charged at all?


Hes probably got a cousin who is in the police who can make this go away.


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## MissyM72 (Sep 20, 2015)

expatme said:


> I have posted this to warn others and hope that it will be Ok to do that.
> 
> This is what Kathleen has written on Facebook today:
> 
> ...


Hello
First of all I would like to send my condolences on the Loss of your dog.There have been far too many poisoning of animals in Cyprus which to date is still going on.It is Barbaric and Cruel and what these animals go through when Poisoned is Shocking.The problem with these poisonings is without hard evidence in the first place,these murderers are getting away with it and even if there is Evidence in place,they will more than likely receive a Fine.Prison sentences in Cyprus seems to be a rarity but then again there is a Backlog of a a few thousand cases yet to be heard and even if and when it does get to court it could drag on for a number of years.
I am not excusing the behaviour of these people and they should be punished but Cyprus is a lawless Island so let's hope the New Animal Party ( APC ) get their act together and achieve change on this Island which the previous 10 Political Parties have failed to do to date.I live in Hope.

I have been reading your Story you have put on here.I am a little concerned by the contents contained in it.
*Quote*-I went to the park in the car and told them to come home because we were going out.
When they came home I asked where the dog was,my husband thought she was following but she was not.

1-why didn't your husband,children and the dog come home with you in your Car? If you were going out wouldn't it have been easier to all get in the car together and go home? 

Quote-I told him I saw her heading towards the Taverna.

2-If you saw your dog heading towards the Taverna why didn't you stop the car or shout out to your Husband the Dog was heading towards the Taverna so he could go and retrieve the Dog?

Quote-Meanwhile our neighbours went to the park and found the dog frothing at the mouth,by the time he called the police and us,the dog was dead.

3-When your Husband came home and you both realised the dog was not with you,why didn't you both get back in the car and go and look for the dog? I can understand the neighbours offering their assistance but I find it odd you never went back yourself at that time,especially when you have stated you saw the dog heading towards the Taverna.

What do you think could have happened? From what you have stated so far,You witnessed the dog heading towards the Taverna and then the dog somehow made it''s way to the Park where it was found frothing from the mouth.?

Quote-My dog was whisked away by some village helper and burnt Immediately so the police cant do a post mortem.

4-Did you give your permission for the dog to be burnt Immediately? But then again your story states it was your Neighbours that found your dog in the park while you,your husband and children were still at home? So I am assuming this Village Helper took it upon himself to burn your dog straight away without your permission? I find this an odd thing to do? ( On his Part ) This village helper has destroyed what could have been vital Evidence and PROOF that your dog had been Poisoned.

Quote-up until now he has only been suspected of murdering the locals dogs and cats.

Reading your story it seems this owner is Still only suspected of murdering your dog because there is no evidence against him that links him and your dog.The evidence if there was any has been burnt.It seems to me it is circumstantial.

Have the owners fingerprints on the packet of poison come back as a Positive yet? I am assuming photographs and video evidence was taken at the scene? to collaborate your claims against this man?


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## David_&_Letitia (Jul 8, 2012)

MissyM72 said:


> ..but Cyprus is a lawless Island...


It most certainly is not a lawless island. What would possibly make you say such a thing?



MissyM72 said:


> I have been reading your Story you have put on here.I am a little concerned by the contents contained in it.


The OP stated that the details had originally been posted on Facebook and he copied and pasted it on to this site. The actual author, who is the only person who can answer your questions, is not a member of this Forum, so you are unlikely to receive answers to the questions you posed. However, this was big news at the time, reported in the local press and many expats gave first hand accounts of their experiences with the Taverna owner. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck...


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