# Holiday homes and green residence permits



## simonkenyon68 (Apr 24, 2019)

Hi all -

My husband and I bought a place in Sitges back in October. At the moment we use it for a holiday home, visiting on the odd weekend and spending maybe a week max at the property. We also occasionally work remotely from Spain, but we both have full-time jobs here and are likely to continue doing so for the foreseeable (the oldest of us is at least 15 years away from retirement at the earliest)

With Brexit coming up, we're considering applying for green European residence registration cards at the police station. We already have NIE numbers, and of course we have an address in Spain, along with a bank account. We'd look to apply for residency on the basis that we have enough cash in the bank, and would contract a health care plan in Spain to make this happen.

Although we have immediate plans to spend more than 90 days at a time in Spain, our rationale for doing it now is to hedge against thing getting tricker for UK citizens in the event of a disorderly no-deal Brexit. You never know, next year one of us could be made redundant and spending 3 months in Spain might be a nice way of passing the summer...

Is anyone else in this situation, and if so do you think it's it a good idea to get the green card thing sorted now, even if we have no immediate need for it? I can't think of any disadvantages apart from the cost of a healthcare plan that we'd realistically never use

cheers!
simon


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## davexf (Jan 26, 2009)

Hola 

The problem is that one lie leads to another lie and it just goes on; think about HMRC - you should be taxed in Spain if you have residence and not pay tax to HMRC - as you are not of retiring age then you will be expected to work - self employed or employed by a company who in turn will pay the necessary taxes. 

I think I have painted the legal picture sufficiently; yes there are people living below the radar but they are getting less and their days are numbered 

Davexf


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## alpinist (Feb 8, 2009)

davexf said:


> Hola
> 
> The problem is that one lie leads to another lie and it just goes on; think about HMRC - you should be taxed in Spain if you have residence and not pay tax to HMRC - as you are not of retiring age then you will be expected to work - self employed or employed by a company who in turn will pay the necessary taxes.
> 
> ...


As I read it, the OP is talking about registering as resident with the police to "Brexit-proof" himself not with the tax office.

Those are two different systems: You have to register with police for temporary residence after 90 days but you're not a tax resident until you pass 183. 

As an aside, I'm not sure what the Spanish police really expect someone who spends e.g. 4 consecutive months every year in Spain: they trigger the police requirement but presumably then break it, so register and de-register with them each time? I'm sure they'd get quite bored of that.

In his position though, I'm not sure if registering now will do any good because from what I understand, the Spanish have been saying the easiest swap to TIE will be for those with 5 year permanent residence. Under five years, he'll probably have to go through the whole process again as a third party national anyway.

---
Castilla y León | Andalucía


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

simonkenyon68 said:


> With Brexit coming up, we're considering applying for green European residence registration cards at the police station. We already have NIE numbers, and of course we have an address in Spain, along with a bank account. We'd look to apply for residency on the basis that we have enough cash in the bank, and would contract a health care plan in Spain to make this happen.


You can't apply for a "green European residence registration card" in Spain if you're not a resident in Spain. Residence card = you reside in this country, and is not to do with how much money you have in the bank. Nor is it whether you have a Spanish address. It is a certificate that registers where you are resident.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Afraid it doesn't work like that. If you reside in a country that is where you live. You can't just apply for residency on the basis that you feel you might want to live there in 10 years time meanwhile you will just move between the two depending on which is the most tax efficient.


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## alpinist (Feb 8, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> You can't apply for a "green European residence registration card" in Spain if you're not a resident in Spain. .... It is a certificate that registers where you are resident.


This seems to be contradictory. Bit of chicken/egg, no? 

---
Castilla y León | Andalucía


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## alpinist (Feb 8, 2009)

kaipa said:


> Afraid it doesn't work like that. If you reside in a country that is where you live. You can't just apply for residency on the basis that you feel you might want to live there in 10 years time meanwhile you will just move between the two depending on which is the most tax efficient.


You can though, if you have the paperwork to support it. Nothing to stop you applying other than whatever sort of fraud they could charge you with. And, if you've been here over 90 days you have to apply for it anyway, so just wait 91 days and the law obliges you to register even if you don't want to stay. No?

---
Castilla y León | Andalucía


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

_Si_ said:


> This seems to be contradictory. Bit of chicken/egg, no?
> 
> ---
> Castilla y León | Andalucía


 I can't see the chicken or the egg. If you don't live here (and the OP says they won't be) you can't sign on the list which registers members of the EU who live here. It seems logical.
I'm not sure why you have quoted the 90 day rule if the OP has said they won't be spending more than a week here at a time...


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

_Si_ said:


> This seems to be contradictory. Bit of chicken/egg, no?
> 
> ---
> Castilla y León | Andalucía


Not really. 

One can be resident in Spain (live here and have home here) and also be tax resident but may not have legalised the situation by getting a TIE or signing on the list of foreigners.


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## alpinist (Feb 8, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> One can be resident in Spain (live here and have home here) and also be tax resident but may not have legalised the situation by getting a TIE or signing on the list of foreigners.


I agree. If one can do that, then why are people telling the OP he cannot also do the opposite and register as a foreigner but not become a tax resident? 



Pesky Wesky said:


> I can't see the chicken or the egg. If you don't live here (and the OP says they won't be) you can't sign on the list which registers members of the EU who live here. It seems logical.


You say that only residents can get the certificate but also that the certificate proves you're a resident. There's a logic error here. If only residents could get the certificate then the way to ensure this would be to ask applicants for proof they are resident, i.e. that exact same certificate which they are trying to get. As it is, anyone with the correct paperwork can claim they are a resident and then be issued with the certificate / card that says they are one, even if they are not. There is nothing to stop someone applying for that certificate the first week they arrive in Spain, assuming they have arranged accommodation, healthcare or a job etc. As stated, I imagine they could be pursued for some sort of fraudulent declaration after the event, but that's another topic.




Pesky Wesky said:


> I'm not sure why you have quoted the 90 day rule if the OP has said they won't be spending more than a week here at a time...


I'm quoting the 90 day rule because as I explained in the subsequent post to the one you quoted, it sounds like if the OP wanted to, he could arrange to stay here 91 days and work remotely out of his holiday home. The expat police on various forums would then be up in arms telling him that he must register as a resident because he has passed the 90 day limit.

If he then goes home the next week, I suppose he must de-register. What if he forgets? 

I object to the type of post that tells people things cannot be done simply because the respondents don't like them morally. Even without condoning fraud, there is a legitimate way for the OP to do what he wants to do. I reiterate my earlier opinion that it's probably pointless now anyway as he won't have time to get the 5 year permanent residency before a Brexit of some sort happens.


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## simonkenyon68 (Apr 24, 2019)

davexf said:


> Hola
> 
> The problem is that one lie leads to another lie and it just goes on; think about HMRC - you should be taxed in Spain if you have residence and not pay tax to HMRC - as you are not of retiring age then you will be expected to work - self employed or employed by a company who in turn will pay the necessary taxes.
> 
> ...


I think if anything we'd be more above the radar than below. If we were fiscally resident then yes, we'd expect to pay taxes in Spain rather than the UK - but we've no plans to change our fiscal residency from the UK (either by spending more than 183 days a year in Spain, or moving where our current employment is based)


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I am not sure if signing on the register of EU residents in Spain when actually Spain is not your primary residence is an offence under law or not, but I expect it is.

Regardless of this though, it is going to cause a lot of practical trouble.

Spanish residents for example cannot legally drive foreign plated cars in Spain, so you would not be able to drive your own car from the UK. And what about your driving licence? Would you change that to?


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## simonkenyon68 (Apr 24, 2019)

_Si_ said:


> As I read it, the OP is talking about registering as resident with the police to "Brexit-proof" himself not with the tax office.
> 
> Those are two different systems: You have to register with police for temporary residence after 90 days but you're not a tax resident until you pass 183.
> 
> ...


Thanks - yes, this is exactly why we're thinking of doing this. We've no plans to move to Spain permanently for at least another 10 years, but possibly as early next year we might look at doing freelance/contract work in the UK for say 8 months of the year, and then spending a nice long summer in Spain. The flat's already paid for, so we'd just need to cover our living expenses. In applying now, we'd be telling a fib, because we'd have no immediate intent to stay longer than 90 days, but would potentially head off problems with obtaining the same rights further down the line, such as providing more onerous proofs, sitting language/culture tests etc, that we don't currently have to deal with as EU citizens. 

Additionally I'd noticed that to do online filing of taxes (we have to pay non-resident's imputed income tax on the property), you need both a NIE number and a "confirmation" number, and this number is printed on the green EU citizen's card or TIE - which made me wonder again that maybe we *should* be registering for a green card after all... though of course we can always pay these taxes by printing off the form and taking it to the bank.

From what you say though, it sounds like post-Brexit we'd still need a TIE anyway, and that there's no suggestion currently that there'll be some easy frictionless way converting a green EU residents registration into this document unless we'd had five years under our belts. On that basis, I think we might as well save ourselves the cost of the extra health insurance we'd need and just deal with residency applications when the time comes. 

cheers
-S


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## simonkenyon68 (Apr 24, 2019)

Overandout said:


> I am not sure if signing on the register of EU residents in Spain when actually Spain is not your primary residence is an offence under law or not, but I expect it is.


Yes, I think this is what I'm really getting at. From what I've read you need to register "if you intend to stay for more than 90 days", though what happens if, for example, you intend to stay 91 days but leave after 45, or half-intend to stay 90 days, or whatever, doesn't seem so clear.



Overandout said:


> Regardless of this though, it is going to cause a lot of practical trouble.
> 
> Spanish residents for example cannot legally drive foreign plated cars in Spain, so you would not be able to drive your own car from the UK. And what about your driving licence? Would you change that to?


Yes - again why I was asking. As I mentioned elsewhere, we've no plans to be in a situation where we're tax-resident in Spain, but I suppose there's nothing to stop the Spanish tax authorities noticing that we are registered as residents and then starting to snoop around. We'd be fine, but if they started to send demands and take things to court, it would be an enormous hassle to get things sorted out.

Thanks for the point re. cars though - for now, I doubt we'd own a car over here or bring our own cars over, and would probably just hire locally as needed. Sitges is thankfully a very walkable town - one of the reasons we chose to get a place there!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Overandout said:


> I am not sure if signing on the register of EU residents in Spain when actually Spain is not your primary residence is an offence under law or not, but I expect it is.
> 
> Regardless of this though, it is going to cause a lot of practical trouble.
> 
> Spanish residents for example cannot legally drive foreign plated cars in Spain, so you would not be able to drive your own car from the UK. And what about your driving licence? Would you change that to?


There are also potential problems related to bank accounts, I think. If the OP has a non-resident Spanish bank account (needed to pay direct debits for household bills, etc) then doesn't the bank have to obtain a certificate of non-residency on his behalf at certain intervals (for which they charge)? If he had registered as a resident presumably a certificate of non-residency could not be issued.

If, however, he registered as a resident and changed his bank account to a resident one in order to avoid the high non-resident charges, then the bank would submit an annual tax report to AEAT and they would no doubt be looking for an annual tax return from him and questioning him if no returns were forthcoming.

I agree with your view that it would cause a lot of practical trouble in the long run.


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## Love Karma (Oct 10, 2018)

Lynn R said:


> There are also potential problems related to bank accounts, I think. If the OP has a non-resident Spanish bank account (needed to pay direct debits for household bills, etc) then doesn't the bank have to obtain a certificate of non-residency on his behalf at certain intervals (for which they charge)? If he had registered as a resident presumably a certificate of non-residency could not be issued.
> 
> If, however, he registered as a resident and changed his bank account to a resident one in order to avoid the high non-resident charges, *then the bank would submit an annual tax report to AEAT and they would no doubt be looking for an annual tax return from him and questioning him if no returns were forthcoming.*
> 
> I agree with your view that it would cause a lot of practical trouble in the long run.


So are you saying that the Banks submit an annual tax report to AEAT on each and everyone of its customers with a resident account?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Love Karma said:


> So are you saying that the Banks submit an annual tax report to AEAT on each and everyone of its customers with a resident account?


Yes they do and also you will find the HMRC talk to Hacienda.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

The NIE gives AEAT full access to any bank account or any other transaction in which the NIE was quoted. 

On the resident or non resident if one is staying under 183 days in a year. That is interesting as providing one’s centre of economic activity is not in spain then one would not be tax resident. 

If one has an EU Citizen Registration they are not required just by that to pay tax in
Spain on their worldwide income only income generated in spain, just as a non resident would. They would need to pay the imputed tax (second home tax) on the holiday home. Not sure if although having an EU Citizen Registration they would be prohibited from driving a non
Spanish reg vehicle. Interested ‘slotting hairs’ situation. 

A person who does not live ‘habitually’ in
Spain technically cannot Register on the padron. 

I will asked the relevant authorities to try and resolve this ‘labyrinth’ situation and post anything conclusive


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## Love Karma (Oct 10, 2018)

baldilocks said:


> Yes they do and also you will find the HMRC talk to Hacienda.


Yes I'm fully aware of that. My query had nothing whatsoever to do with HMRC so fail to see why you answered in such a way. My query was that I wanted to clarify the statement that Spanish Banks submit an annual tax report to AEAT on each and every individual residents account. I would have thought the sheer number of accounts would totally overwhelm the level of staff at the tax authorities disposal to deal with such a volume of data. However, I have an appointment next week with my Manager at Santander in Malaga so will be asking if this is the case.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Love. I. thought my post made your question unnecessary as I said the tax office can examine any accounts they wish. Thus if they want to inspect any accounts they would do so without any help from he banks


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## simonkenyon68 (Apr 24, 2019)

Juan C said:


> The NIE gives AEAT full access to any bank account or any other transaction in which the NIE was quoted.
> 
> On the resident or non resident if one is staying under 183 days in a year. That is interesting as providing one’s centre of economic activity is not in spain then one would not be tax resident.
> 
> ...


Thanks - interestingly we just managed to register on the padron without and diffculty, and explained fully to the lady that we were only using the place at weekends (though possibly considering applying for residence). Having read the comments here I'm more of the belief that applying for a green eu residency would be a bad idea for now given our circumstances, and therefore we should maybe de-register from the padron too.


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## alpinist (Feb 8, 2009)

The ayunto want you to register for the padron because they get a bit more funding from central government.

Registering for padron + register of foreigners will probably add you to the census and you could get offered the right to vote in some elections, so don't abuse that one or it's serious issues time!

---
Castilla y León | Andalucía


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## Love Karma (Oct 10, 2018)

Juan C said:


> Love. I. thought my post made your question unnecessary as I said the tax office can examine any accounts they wish. Thus if they want to inspect any accounts they would do so without any help from he banks


How so? I am fully aware of what you say. That is not my query. I am purely seeking clarification on the accuracy of statement made "that the Banks supply each and every resident account holders individual information in an annual report to the tax office" as a matter of course . I thought that I made that quite clear in my post.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Love Karma said:


> So are you saying that the Banks submit an annual tax report to AEAT on each and everyone of its customers with a resident account?


As far as I know it's a legal requirement and an automatic process


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## Love Karma (Oct 10, 2018)

Pesky Wesky said:


> As far as I know it's a legal requirement and an automatic process


Thank you, just queried the process as have never come across it before and was unsure.


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