# Question about U.S. Renunciation



## Rolento (Feb 23, 2016)

Hello,

I have been living 3+ years with my wife (Non-U.S.) on the open ocean in our "house" boat, travelling the world. We think it is about time to renounce our citizenship as we have had no use or contact with the United States for years.

My question is, are we going to have a hard time renouncing at an US Embassy with no foreign residency or passport? Technically it does not say we need a non-US passport or citizenship on the papers I need to sign. Just confirmation I am a US citizen, and a signature of renouncement. :confused2:

What have others experienced with this process? Will they process my renunciation? :fingerscrossed:

Thanks


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

I have moved this to the US forum where I think you will get more responses?


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## Bellthorpe (Jun 23, 2013)

Do I understand you correctly - you would hand in your US passport without having another one? 

That would make your existence extremely difficult. Even sailing the seas, you have to put in to port from time to time. No one would have you though.

What is the plan?


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## Davis1 (Feb 20, 2009)

you cannot renounce without having another citizenship in place to continue with they will not leave you stateless

Renouncing US citizenship : Expat Info Desk


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Apparently it violates several international treaties to allow you to give up (or to take away) your nationality when you don't have a second nationality to fall back on. (This is a huge debate here in France, where they are talking about taking away French nationality from anyone convicted of terrorism.) Evidently you can't be stateless - or at least a government isn't allowed to do anything that will leave you in that condition.
Cheers,
Bev


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

While probably not a good idea to renounce without already having another nationality and passport to fall back on, the US State Department website addresses statelessness but does not indicate it would prevent you from renouncing.

From the official source:

Persons intending to renounce U.S. citizenship should be aware that, unless they already possess a foreign nationality, they may be rendered stateless and, thus, lack the protection of any government. They may also have difficulty traveling as they may not be entitled to a passport from any country. Even if not stateless, former U.S. citizens would still be required to obtain a visa to travel to the United States, or show that they are eligible for admission pursuant to the terms of the Visa Waiver Pilot Program (VWPP). Renunciation of U.S. citizenship may not prevent a foreign country from deporting that individual to the United States in some non-citizen status.

https://travel.state.gov/content/tr...aws-policies/renunciation-of-citizenship.html


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## Rolento (Feb 23, 2016)

Thanks for your replies.

And yes, we are basically travelling from port to port, however we rarely pull into ports because there is no real need when living on the ocean and coast. It actually is MORE difficult to find an "Official" Port with authority than just getting what we need in a small village or something. I believe americans call this "Substidence" living, like Aboriginees or Eskimos. It is perfectly legal.

But yes, I have no other nationality so I guess I would fall under statelessness?? Which apparently is just fine according to the paperwork, it is only concerned with establishing that I have a U.S. citizenship to renounce. I could always get legal help.

So I guess it would go something like this?: 

1: Get a mail box.
2: Go to Embassy for renunciation process
3: Get certificate in Mail of Renunciation
4: Be on my way

So basically I can't think of any other reason, thoughts on this?


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## Stevesolar (Dec 21, 2012)

Rolento said:


> Thanks for your replies.
> 
> And yes, we are basically travelling from port to port, however we rarely pull into ports because there is no real need when living on the ocean and coast. It actually is MORE difficult to find an "Official" Port with authority than just getting what we need in a small village or something. I believe americans call this "Substidence" living, like Aboriginees or Eskimos. It is perfectly legal.
> 
> ...


Cost - don't forget it's quite expensive to renounce these days!
Also - are your US tax affairs up to date? - as I believe they need to be, to enable you to renounce.


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## Davis1 (Feb 20, 2009)

renunciation fee to $2,350, 
On top of that, some U.S. citizens are slapped with a giant "exit tax" bill


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## Bellthorpe (Jun 23, 2013)

Rolento said:


> Thanks for your replies.
> 
> And yes, we are basically travelling from port to port, however we rarely pull into ports because there is no real need when living on the ocean and coast. It actually is MORE difficult to find an "Official" Port with authority than just getting what we need in a small village or something. I believe americans call this "Substidence" living, like Aboriginees or Eskimos. It is perfectly legal.
> 
> But yes, I have no other nationality so I guess I would fall under statelessness?? Which apparently is just fine according to the paperwork, it is only concerned with establishing that I have a U.S. citizenship to renounce. I could always get legal help.


What happens if (actually when) you get sick and need medical care? You will have no legal basis to enter the US and go to a hospital.


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## Rolento (Feb 23, 2016)

Geez, that's almost $3000! As for the final Tax form you have to fill out, my income has been less than $1000-$2000 dollars, some of it "untaxable" (Veterans Benefits for example). So I was told I did not have to file all these years, is that going to be a problem? 

Should I file a regular tax return to report basically "nothing" before I renounce and file the last tax form you have to fill out before leaving??? There's basically no income to report from Jobs, inheritance, land, ect... I have no income. It is going to have alot of zero's and blank spaces, lol.


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

This is really a moot question. I've never heard of any U.S. embassy or consulate allowing an individual to renounce U.S. citizenship without proof of possession of another citizenship, ordinarily a foreign passport.

The reason for the U.S. State Department's guidance is that the U.S. government is not responsible for any other country's recognition of your other citizenship(s). If you present a fake foreign passport, or some other country has revoked your citizenship (perhaps because you did something stupid when you acquired it, like lied, that was later detected), then you could be stateless if you renounce -- and there's nothing the U.S. government could do about that. But the U.S. State Department will not let you renounce without _some_ proof of possession of another citizenship.

So forget about it. It's not going to happen unless and until you acquire another citizenship.

Now, if you want to acquire another citizenship there are a couple countries that sell theirs. St. Kitts and Nevis and Dominica are the two examples I've heard about. Roger Ver, who has posted to this forum, purchased citizenship in St. Kitts and Nevis. But it costs a great deal of money to buy either of those citizenships. And why would spending so much money be worth it?


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Rolento said:


> Should I file a regular tax return to report basically "nothing" before I renounce and file the last tax form you have to fill out before leaving??? There's basically no income to report from Jobs, inheritance, land, ect... I have no income. It is going to have alot of zero's and blank spaces, lol.


Which sort of begs the question: why? If you have no filing obligation to the US, you sort of don't have any real cause to renounce - or am I missing something? (And I suspect there will be "issues" with those veteran's benefits if and when you do - as a non-citizen, there's a good likelihood they'd be hit for 30% withholding tax, kind of like they do with US Social Security paid to a non-resident.)
Cheers,
Bev


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## Rolento (Feb 23, 2016)

Thanks for the heads up Bev. As for not having a 2nd passport, I don't think it will be a problem because it technically is not a requirement to renounce, I mean for example there are those who just burn their passport and renounce like that, but then you would have to fill out a LOSS of citizenship form, lol.


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## Pacifica (Oct 19, 2011)

Sorry for the confusion. Bev and I must have both deleted my duplicate post at the same time. I'll try again ...



BBCWatcher said:


> This is really a moot question. I've never heard of any U.S. embassy or consulate allowing an individual to renounce U.S. citizenship without proof of possession of another citizenship, ordinarily a foreign passport.


I suspect it’s very rare, but can and does happen.

Dept of State Foreign Affairs Manual 7 FAM 1261(g) Introduction. 
“You should explain the extreme difficulties that a stateless individual may encounter . .. . . If the individual abroad still desires to proceed with the renunciation, you may proceed.”


Dept of State Foreign Affairs Manual 7 FAM 1215(e) Statelessness Resulting From Loss of Nationality.


“In making all these points clear to potentially stateless renunciants, the Department of State will, nevertheless, afford them their right to expatriate.”


If you google Glen Lee Roberts and Mike Gogulsk, they’ve described their experiences doing so.


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## Pacifica (Oct 19, 2011)

Rolento said:


> I mean for example there are those who just burn their passport and renounce like that, but then you would have to fill out a LOSS of citizenship form, lol.



There are 7 ways in which a person can relinquish (terminate) their citizenship. These relinquishing acts are listed in the _Immigration and Nationality Act, s. 349(a)_. Renunciation s. 349(a)(5) is a specific procedure and is probably the most common relinquishing act, but burning your passport is not on the list of relinquishing acts and doing so does affect one's citizenship status.


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## Pacifica (Oct 19, 2011)

Pacifica said:


> ... but burning your passport is not on the list of relinquishing acts and doing so does affect one's citizenship status.


Oops: I meant to type "and doing so does not affect one's citizenship status."


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## Rolento (Feb 23, 2016)

Isn't that interesting about the burning, we hear so much about that it is practically a stereotypical way of renouncing citizenship. When in fact it is NOT considered a legitimate way of renouncement. I personally have no reason to burn my passport, I am a veteran.


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## Bellthorpe (Jun 23, 2013)

But you won't be a veteran when you relinquish citizenship ...

Again I ask you - what will you do when you need medical treatment and care?


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## Rolento (Feb 23, 2016)

To be honest my fathers a doctor so I can "cheat" a little bit.


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## Bellthorpe (Jun 23, 2013)

That's fine. But, and I don't mean to cause you distress, your father will probably pre-decease you.

And when you need your cardiac surgery, and ongoing treatment ... ?


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Bellthorpe said:


> That's fine. But, and I don't mean to cause you distress, your father will probably pre-decease you.
> 
> And when you need your cardiac surgery, and ongoing treatment ... ?


US Citizenship doesn't carry with it any claim to medical treatment. (Yeah, I know about the ACA, but if you don't have to file, you don't have to fill out that form, either.)

Say, the question in all this is: what nationality is your wife? Some countries let you take your spouse's nationality without actually having to live there.
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

Bevdeforges said:


> US Citizenship doesn't carry with it any claim to medical treatment.


Yes it does, in at least four ways:

1. Medicare eligible individuals. U.S. citizens age 65 and over can enter the United States and take advantage of Medicare.

2. Destitute individuals physically present in the United States. U.S. citizens have the right to enter the United States, even destitute, and can get Medicaid coverage.

3. Veterans medical benefits. Many veterans are eligible for medical services, but very few of those services are available outside the United States. (There are a few exceptions.)

4. U.S. hospital emergency rooms. Hospital emergency rooms in the United States must treat and stabilize all patients that present themselves. Physical presence in the United States is required, which U.S. citizens can do.

Statelessness is simply not fun, let's just stipulate.

I cannot fathom why anybody would pay $2350 to become stateless (and $0 not). There are many crazy things individuals do, and that'd be right up there in the top tier of crazy.


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## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

What do you expect to gain by renouncing citizenship?


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Yeah, but all four ways assume the OP is physically present in the US, which apparently he rarely is and doesn't voluntarily choose to be. 

I'm with twostep - I don't see what exactly the OP is looking to accomplish. (Seems like a waste of $2350 unless you're looking to avoid a hefty tax bill or something.) But the issue of medical care is kind of a red herring in this discussion anyhow.
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

Bevdeforges said:


> But the issue of medical care is kind of a red herring in this discussion anyhow.


I disagree. Pick any medical calamity that is not fatal or debilitating in that precise moment but still serious. Alzheimer's Disease and many types of cancer are examples.

....But what are you getting for your $2350, Rolento?


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## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

Bevdeforges said:


> Yeah, but all four ways assume the OP is physically present in the US, which apparently he rarely is and doesn't voluntarily choose to be.
> 
> I'm with twostep - I don't see what exactly the OP is looking to accomplish. (Seems like a waste of $2350 unless you're looking to avoid a hefty tax bill or something.) But the issue of medical care is kind of a red herring in this discussion anyhow.
> Cheers,
> Bev


No matter where in the world - a US embassy/consulate will aid a US citizen and spouse. Blue water comes with unexpected calamities.

What baffles me is that OP as veteran probably used/uses benefits/compensation paid for by a country whose passport he does not want. 

I have no dog in his fight.


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

Pacifica said:


> If you google Glen Lee Roberts and Mike Gogulsk, they’ve described their experiences doing so.


Digging into these cases a bit, Glen Lee Roberts is now under the international protection of Paraguay. For a bit less than 13 months he was stateless without any country's international protection, although he had at least tenuous legal residence in Paraguay.

Mike Gogulski is under the international protection of Slovakia and was from the moment he renounced.

In other words, these two individuals are technically stateless, but they are not functionally stateless by any means. Rolento would not be like them.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

twostep said:


> No matter where in the world - a US embassy/consulate will aid a US citizen and spouse. Blue water comes with unexpected calamities.


I wouldn't count on that - particularly in the future. All other considerations aside, the budgets for State have been decimated and it's literally quite sad to see how little assistance the Paris Consulate renders even just on their website these days. That's not a criticism of the Consulate - I have always found them to be as helpful as possible (even the IRS office in the Consulate!), however, with no budget there's a real limit on how much they can help.

Like you, however, I just don't get what a renunciation will/would get him. I mean, really, can he even get off the boat when they reach shore if he doesn't have a passport of some variety? Even just to do errands, buy supplies and groceries or anything else?
Cheers,
Bev


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## Rolento (Feb 23, 2016)

My wife is Asian and the country she is from does not allow non-citizens to obtain citizenship through Marriage or Children. Most Asian countries are like this. It is in stark contrast to Western civilization where almost all of them do.

As for medical care, I am really not concerned about any terminal illness "boogey-man" waiting around the corner. I was in the Marines. But to be honest my Parent are "filthy stinking rich" as they say, so that has always been a kind of safety net in the back of my mind I guess.

Retiring on the open ocean has always been a dream of mine since I was young and it stuck with me. Why I joined the Marines and not the Navy? Maybe the recruiter, LOL.

So I am kind of like Pinnochio trying to cut the strings off and sail to paradise island. I have basically forgetten the USA while I have been away so it is really no big deal to leave. I have no attachments their and family have other places outside the US, so it is not really like a "Home" to me.


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## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

Bevdeforges said:


> I wouldn't count on that - particularly in the future. All other considerations aside, the budgets for State have been decimated and it's literally quite sad to see how little assistance the Paris Consulate renders even just on their website these days. That's not a criticism of the Consulate - I have always found them to be as helpful as possible (even the IRS office in the Consulate!), however, with no budget there's a real limit on how much they can help.
> 
> Like you, however, I just don't get what a renunciation will/would get him. I mean, really, can he even get off the boat when they reach shore if he doesn't have a passport of some variety? Even just to do errands, buy supplies and groceries or anything else?
> Cheers,
> Bev


Paris is a long ways from blue water.


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## EVHB (Feb 11, 2008)

How much taxes do you have to pay as a non-US citizen if you inherit from a US citizen? That is much higher as the taxes a citizen pays on a citizens' heritage.


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## Bellthorpe (Jun 23, 2013)

How much tax do you have to pay?

Perhaps the question is 'to whom do you have to pay'? If anyone ...


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

Again, what would you be getting in return for paying $2350 (or possibly more if you have a trust fund, for example)? What's the upside? None? No answer?


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

EVHB said:


> How much taxes do you have to pay as a non-US citizen if you inherit from a US citizen? That is much higher as the taxes a citizen pays on a citizens' heritage.


Depends on your country of residence, but generally speaking the inheritance tax is on the estate, not on the heirs. Now, the taxes on various benefits (such as a veterans pension) rise to 30% automatically withheld from all payments to "non-US persons" with renunciation. 
Cheers,
Bev


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## EVHB (Feb 11, 2008)

Ok, "the estate" has to pay the taxes, but that means less money for the inheritor.
(but if you are living from the sea and the sky, a couple of $$$ more or less probably are not that important and you gladly donate to the US state)


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## Rolento (Feb 23, 2016)

I just read Glen E. ROberts work on renouncemnet and he too apparently had no second passport or citizenship. So it is a fairly straight forward process involving some paperwork.
It is a good read.



> Again, what would you be getting in return for paying $2350 (or possibly more if you have a trust fund, for example)? What's the upside? None? No answer? - BBCWATCHER


Glen Roberts said he "outgrew" America, but I would have to say I "never outgrew" my non-american family.


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

Rolento, *what is the upside*? It will cost you at least $2350 to become stateless. What are you going to get for that money?

You haven't answered that question yet. It's a simple question.


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## Rolento (Feb 23, 2016)

BBCWatcher said:


> Rolento, *what is the upside*? It will cost you at least $2350 to become stateless. What are you going to get for that money?
> 
> You haven't answered that question yet. It's a simple question.


I don't believe your making a purchase with that $2350 filing fee.


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

Rolento said:


> I don't believe your making a purchase with that $2350 filing fee.


Yes, you really are. For $2350 (minimum) you would purchase a U.S. Certificate of Loss of Nationality and, in your case, statelessness.

Simple question, again: what would you be getting for your money in return?


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## Rolento (Feb 23, 2016)

BBCWatcher said:


> Yes, you really are. For $2350 (minimum) you would purchase a U.S. Certificate of Loss of Nationality and, in your case, statelessness.
> 
> Simple question, again: what would you be getting for your money in return?


Sounds like you answered your own question, lol.


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## Stevesolar (Dec 21, 2012)

BBCWatcher said:


> Yes, you really are. For $2350 (minimum) you would purchase a U.S. Certificate of Loss of Nationality and, in your case, statelessness.
> 
> Simple question, again: what would you be getting for your money in return?


With respect - what business is that of yours?
The OP has been asking for help and advice from forum members - not the Spanish Inquisition!!!


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Seriously, we're not here to talk you into or out of renunciation. But I'm really just curious - do you not have to go through some form of "passport control" when you go ashore from your boat? Even just to do shopping, take on supplies or whatever? That would be the big "inconvenience" of being stateless, as far as I can tell.

If that's not a problem for you, then the decision is really and truly all up to you.
Cheers,
Bev


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## accbgb (Sep 23, 2009)

Bevdeforges said:


> Yeah, but all four ways assume the OP is physically present in the US, which apparently he rarely is and doesn't voluntarily choose to be.
> 
> I'm with twostep - I don't see what exactly the OP is looking to accomplish. (Seems like a waste of $2350 _unless you're looking to avoid a hefty tax bill or something.) _But the issue of medical care is kind of a red herring in this discussion anyhow.
> Cheers,
> Bev



Nope. In fact, I have read elsewhere that a prerequisite to renunciation is that the IRS gets to review your tax status and get their money first.

Also,



> E. TAX & MILITARY OBLIGATIONS /NO ESCAPE FROM PROSECUTION
> 
> Persons who wish to renounce U.S. citizenship should be aware of the fact that renunciation of U.S. citizenship may have no effect whatsoever on his or her U.S. tax or military service obligations (contact the Internal Revenue Service or U.S. Selective Service for more information). In addition, the act of renouncing U.S. citizenship does not allow persons to avoid possible prosecution for crimes which they may have committed in the United States, or escape the repayment of financial obligations previously incurred in the United States or incurred as United States citizens abroad.
> 
> https://travel.state.gov/content/tr...aws-policies/renunciation-of-citizenship.html


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

accbgb said:


> Nope. In fact, I have read elsewhere that a prerequisite to renunciation is that the IRS gets to review your tax status and get their money first.
> 
> Also,


Admittedly, filing and paying up the last 5 years of so of taxes is part of the process. But I was referring to future tax bills, not past ones.
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

Bevdeforges said:


> But I was referring to future tax bills, not past ones.


There are still future U.S. tax bills: all (or at least most) of the income is U.S. source. Indeed, the total effective tax rate might _increase_.

Speaking of which, can U.S. Social Security even pay retirement benefits to stateless individuals with no state of abode or domicile? I simply don't know, and I can't find a quick answer to that question.


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## mamasue (Oct 7, 2008)

BBCWatcher said:


> There are still future U.S. tax bills: all (or at least most) of the income is U.S. source. Indeed, the total effective tax rate might _increase_.
> 
> Speaking of which, can U.S. Social Security even pay retirement benefits to stateless individuals with no state of abode or domicile? I simply don't know, and I can't find a quick answer to that question.


Good point.....Either way, it looks like renunciation will cost a whole lot, and gain nothing in return!!


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

I notice the OP has returned to "like" posts, but not to respond to the questions posed. I take that to mean that they don't want to respond. That's well within their rights - we're here to point out the advantages and pitfalls and to let them decide how they want to proceed.

Frankly, if their primary source of income is US SS and Veterans benefits, we're not talking huge amounts of money in any event. It seems a bit extreme to go the renunciation route here, but perhaps there is some "hidden" benefit we're not aware of.

I would OTOH be very interested to find out how this all turns out. 
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

BBCWatcher said:


> Speaking of which, can U.S. Social Security even pay retirement benefits to stateless individuals with no state of abode or domicile?


Answering my own question, probably not. According to that publication a stateless person without a country of residence doesn't ordinarily fit within the list of eligible Social Security recipients, so payments would stop (or wouldn't start) if that information is correct.

There seem to be at least a few countries that have social security treaties with the U.S. that provide for stateless individuals (and refugees) who are legal residents. But that's not the case here, so it appears Rolento would lose any/all U.S. Social Security benefits if he were to become stateless. And his spouse, too, assuming Rolento's spouse would have received spousal benefits.

If this is all correct, it keeps getting worse and worse.


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## EVHB (Feb 11, 2008)

Maybe his father will sponsor him with a monthly allowance?


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

Possible, but the usual gift limits and reporting rules apply. Moreover it's probably more difficult for a U.S. person to leave a large estate to a former U.S. citizen in a tax efficient manner (if that matters). Then there are potential banking problems that stateless individuals may face. The mechanics of transmitting funds perhaps get a little tougher.

Speculating a bit, if there's some unstated, past (or present) legal or criminal issue then renunciation doesn't solve that. It's not like a bankruptcy proceeding; nothing is wiped clean or forgiven. It's not possible to renounce "quietly" anyway.


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