# Lisbon



## John999

Are you guys a where of the Lisbon treat signed yesterday in Lisbon by all EU Countries? What is your opinion about it? Do you believe that things will change, or, it is just another bureaucratic BOxxxLL SHIxxxT?
John999 
:confused2:


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## PETERFC

*Reply*

Hi John and All

An interesting question John. The powers to be don't care about use, the recent stories about our MP's show how much they care. If they did what we wanted the world will be a much better place. 

We want a cleaner, safer world and we want it now not at some time in the distant future. 

It would be nice to get some good and interesting replies and i will watch with interest.

Peter


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## John999

Cheers Peter
I do agree with you and I am wondering, what kind of opinion, our members will have regarding this mater, which should be important to all of us
John999


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## Paulo in Porto

As the union gets bigger it gets complicated to manage it. I think that it´s a good idea to have a long term president to provide some political stability in the rotating scheme.


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## PETERFC

*Reply*

Hi John and All

I came out to go to work today and saw a tree outside next door to me had already come into blossom. Today is the 3rd day of DECEMBER. how scary is that. 

Please don't just read this post do a reply remember you have an opinion just as valid as mine.

Peter


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## John999

Hi to all
To anyone who isn´t fully a where of what is the Lisbon treat, you can read it, or, download it on this link. 
http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie/lisbon_treaty.pdf
John999


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## Diane1

Hi John 
How you doing? Great thread, have you been nasty lately? I am surprised you not getting many replays for this mater, anyway, there are great things in the treat, and I only hope that a third of it becomes reality. I agree with Peter, we need a cleaner and safer world. We will have to see if is going to be put down to practice or, if it will be just another lovely EU document to go on file
xxx


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## Diane1

I know you went to Spain for Christmas John. What opinion do your Spanish friends have about the treat???
xxx


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## John999

Hi Diane
My Spanish friends think the same as the English and the Portuguese. The majority isn´t really bothered with this subject. I will “chance saying” that 8 or 9 in 10 doesn´t really care about it. A good restaurant or pub, a nice day out or where to make a penny is all it matters. That is just my opinion
Regards
John999


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## Diane1

A valid one John
:clap2:


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## John999

Every opinion is valid Diane, even if it is criticism. The world would be a boring place to live if we all agreed with everything. Regarding the treat, toke so long to be done, (5 years I believe), because of the concessions they had to do to Denmark, Sweden and at end Ireland, that I really think it is all going down to another lovely document, which cost millions to the tax payers to achieve, but in reality, not much will change again
John999


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## Miguelsantos

This is my first post, hope to get it right. I´m a Portuguese guy who lived in the states for 12 years, freshly returned to Portugal, and hoping to be able to stay for good. I do not agree with you john999, Portugal might be very layback regarding the necessary system updates, but they are also a very proud people and they will do their part to ensure that the Lisbon treat will go forward. Will they take their time? Probably but they will get in there when ready
Regards
MiguelSantos


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## John999

Hi MiguelSantos
First of all welcome to the forum. I would like to say that I wasn't been rude to the Portuguese, well that wasn't my intention, I have to say that I respect more the Portuguse than i respect the majority of the expats i know. It is their romantic way to see life that makes this country such a wonderfull place to live


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## ofilha

PETERFC said:


> Hi John and All
> 
> An interesting question John. The powers to be don't care about use, the recent stories about our MP's show how much they care. If they did what we wanted the world will be a much better place.
> 
> We want a cleaner, safer world and we want it now not at some time in the distant future.
> 
> It would be nice to get some good and interesting replies and i will watch with interest.
> 
> Peter


Regarding the EU and the latest Copenhagen meeting on the environment. It seems that we do need one single voice not the three stooges of large countries in Europe doing the talking for all of us. I myself have figured that after a few thousands of years that if humans have not gotten it yet, then we will never get it. I thought of Azores, but i like to be around cities also and like to go and have my beer, wine and hang out with friends. However, i am very happy that we are coming up with one single entity, Europe, and i just hope that we will be able to manage this unity and keep our distinct national identities such as language and cultures.


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## John999

ofilha said:


> Regarding the EU and the latest Copenhagen meeting on the environment. It seems that we do need one single voice not the three stooges of large countries in Europe doing the talking for all of us. I myself have figured that after a few thousands of years that if humans have not gotten it yet, then we will never get it. I thought of Azores, but i like to be around cities also and like to go and have my beer, wine and hang out with friends. However, i am very happy that we are coming up with one single entity, Europe, and i just hope that we will be able to manage this unity and keep our distinct national identities such as language and cultures.


I don´t think that will ever work. We can´t be all one country. For that to be possible, all the countries involved in the EU had to have the same quality of life, mentalities, prices and wages. That was already Carl Marx ideology. A small part will probably go ahead, but basically it will be just another treat to be part of the history books in the future. Basically, Germany has achieved with the EU what they couldn´t do with 2 world wars. Can´t see where you get the 3. France has been in the last 20 years, German puppies, regarding the EU


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## ofilha

John999 said:


> I don´t think that will ever work. We can´t be all one country. For that to be possible, all the countries involved in the EU had to have the same quality of life, mentalities, prices and wages. That was already Carl Marx ideology. A small part will probably go ahead, but basically it will be just another treat to be part of the history books in the future. Basically, Germany has achieved with the EU what they couldn´t do with 2 world wars. Can´t see where you get the 3. France has been in the last 20 years, German puppies, regarding the EU


Are there any French in this forum? But regarding the Germans, i think most of Europe is German in one shape or other. Even Great Britain. The french are just the western Germans in another tongue. 

Hmm, living in the US i know that many states have a wide variety of customs and habits, so i think there is hope. But at the same time, even small countries can have their own little differences that are non negotiable, Basques, Serbs, etc...


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## John999

Last international meeting regarding CO2 emissions came out with no agreement between the parts. America has been for decades the “country”, which more CO2 produces, now we have China in first place, USA second. You also have a wide group of international scientists saying that CO2 emissions don’t damage what so ever the ozone and that we need that CO2 to live. 
Who should we believe?:confused2:
Hope? Yes, can´t see any real changes for the near future but I have hope that one day things will change before it gets too late.
I disagree with you. Great Britain is Great Britain, the Queen has German blood, but you have the British and the Europeans or Continentals. You see England fallowing the USA in all the silly wars they keep getting g involved too, but I don´t believe that in my life time I will see the Brits eating at the same table or drinking at the same pub as the Germans without :boxing:


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## ofilha

John999 said:


> Last international meeting regarding CO2 emissions came out with no agreement between the parts. America has been for decades the “country”, which more CO2 produces, now we have China in first place, USA second. You also have a wide group of international scientists saying that CO2 emissions don’t damage what so ever the ozone and that we need that CO2 to live.
> Who should we believe?:confused2:
> Hope? Yes, can´t see any real changes for the near future but I have hope that one day things will change before it gets too late.
> I disagree with you. Great Britain is Great Britain, the Queen has German blood, but you have the British and the Europeans or Continentals. You see England fallowing the USA in all the silly wars they keep getting g involved too, but I don´t believe that in my life time I will see the Brits eating at the same table or drinking at the same pub as the Germans without :boxing:


You paint a gloomy picture, but regarding the brits, was not "your" island occupied by Danes and Saxons? At least the Saxons for sure are German, and i believe so are the Danes unless they are slavic! I am not sure what the Britons are, if they are part of France or what. I would be interested in learning about that. Now, i am wondering where the Irish came from. I do hope to see the day Brits and Germans do drink a beer or two in the same pub without a fight. One of my previous bosses was married to an Irish man in Ireland and everytime he would go to the pub, he would tell her he was going to the pub for "fight"...:focus:


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## John999

ofilha said:


> You paint a gloomy picture, but regarding the brits, was not "your" island occupied by Danes and Saxons? At least the Saxons for sure are German, and i believe so are the Danes unless they are slavic! I am not sure what the Britons are, if they are part of France or what. I would be interested in learning about that. Now, i am wondering where the Irish came from. I do hope to see the day Brits and Germans do drink a beer or two in the same pub without a fight. One of my previous bosses was married to an Irish man in Ireland and everytime he would go to the pub, he would tell her he was going to the pub for "fight"...:focus:


The United Kingdom is composed by a group of islands. Where do you get the part of France from? You are right about the occupations, but if you put the things that way, what should we call the Americans??? If I remember my History class the civilized world used America to dump the worst they had and with it a nation was raised. The real Americans have been nearly exterminated and the few who are left, still living manly in… reserves? The Portuguese what are they? Portugal started as a small city when the queen of Spain and her son had a fight. Call Spanish to a Portuguese person and you will see what kind of answer you will get.


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## ofilha

John999 said:


> The United Kingdom is composed by a group of islands. Where do you get the part of France from? You are right about the occupations, but if you put the things that way, what should we call the Americans??? If I remember my History class the civilized world used America to dump the worst they had and with it a nation was raised. The real Americans have been nearly exterminated and the few who are left, still living manly in… reserves? The Portuguese what are they? Portugal started as a small city when the queen of Spain and her son had a fight. Call Spanish to a Portuguese person and you will see what kind of answer you will get.


I get France from Britanny, but maybe the Britons of GB were not from there, that's what i was asking. Americans, you mean USA? Portuguese and most Spanish - i am including all the variants, galicians, andalusians, catalans and castillians, asturians, etc.... are descents of mostly visigoths and berbers, especially as you get further south. I am portuguese and i don't take offense being called a spanish, although i am proud of being Portuguese, in fact in the US when i first arrived here, i often was considered spanish by many people who were ignorant of european history and thought Portugal was a province of Spain.


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## John999

ofilha said:


> I get France from Britanny, but maybe the Britons of GB were not from there, that's what i was asking.
> I know you are Portuguese, not been funny, just a question. Where did you go to school?


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## ofilha

John999 said:


> ofilha said:
> 
> 
> 
> I get France from Britanny, but maybe the Britons of GB were not from there, that's what i was asking.
> I know you are Portuguese, not been funny, just a question. Where did you go to school?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Portugal and the USA. Are you from Spain?
Click to expand...


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## siobhanwf

Miguelsantos said:


> This is my first post, hope to get it right. I´m a Portuguese guy who lived in the states for 12 years, freshly returned to Portugal, and hoping to be able to stay for good. I do not agree with you john999, Portugal might be very layback regarding the necessary system updates, but they are also a very proud people and they will do their part to ensure that the Lisbon treat will go forward. Will they take their time? Probably but they will get in there when ready
> Regards
> MiguelSantos



Well put Miguel. Better to take the time and do it right.


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## siobhanwf

The WHOLE world is a mixture of all races. Our decendants in all countries came from AFRICA... LIVE WITH IT!!


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## ofilha

siobhanwf said:


> The WHOLE world is a mixture of all races. Our decendants in all countries came from AFRICA... LIVE WITH IT!!


That's very true, and did i not say that the iberic peninsula was occupied by Berbers? So that's pretty close ancestry from Africa. But i think the various heritages are something to celebrate, and that's where back to the EU, i just hope that we can find unity in our differences.


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## John999

siobhanwf said:


> Well put Miguel. Better to take the time and do it right.


Time is something we haven´t got much left if we believe in some of the worst predictions
And to be honest it is because the typical Portuguese, taking time mentality, that they are further back everyday regarding all the EU countries. If you check the way the EU has been progressing in the last 20 years, Portugal is more and more on the bottom of the list


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## John999

ofilha said:


> That's very true, and did i not say that the iberic peninsula was occupied by Berbers? So that's pretty close ancestry from Africa. But i think the various heritages are something to celebrate, and that's where back to the EU, i just hope that we can find unity in our differences.


You don’t really mean that. How could we live door to door with all the fanatics you see every day, killing in the name of their religion? Even if you abolish all religions and kill all the fanatics, men still would be fighting with is “brother”. Greed is the cause of the majority of the wars around the world


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## ofilha

John999 said:


> You don’t really mean that. How could we live door to door with all the fanatics you see every day, killing in the name of their religion? Even if you abolish all religions and kill all the fanatics, men still would be fighting with is “brother”. Greed is the cause of the majority of the wars around the world


You mean like the fanatics of fitty years ago in Germany,italy and Spain? But you are right about greed.
Anyway, i am done with this thread, it's getting boring.


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## ofilha

John999 said:


> Time is something we haven´t got much left if we believe in some of the worst predictions
> And to be honest it is because the typical Portuguese, taking time mentality, that they are further back everyday regarding all the EU countries. If you check the way the EU has been progressing in the last 20 years, Portugal is more and more on the bottom of the list


An odd statemtent, but everyone is entitled to their opinions. Frankly, i like it like that. Time is a physical dimension but humans allways take time mentally.
Bye and have a good weekend if only mentally.


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## John999

ofilha said:


> You mean like the fanatics of fitty years ago in Germany,italy and Spain? But you are right about greed.
> Anyway, i am done with this thread, it's getting boring.


Why did you left Portugal behind? Was Salazar any different than Mussolini or Franco? If he had the same resources as Hitler god knows what he would done. The initial thread was about Lisbon treat, and you don´t seem to know much about it. 
What is more decadent in today’s mentality that the slavery business started by the Portuguese, XVII century, the saint crusades by the catholic church, the greed behind the Iraqi war, or Bin Laden , armed, trained, financed by the USA and the Brits during the cold war, (Afghanistan vs. URSS). Nothing of this has anything to do with the Lisbon treat, but I have always enjoyed a good discussion. Sharing opinions with experienced and mature people is one of my hobbies. I am sorry you can´t keep up with it
Wondering why you registered yourself as, originally from the US expat in Portugal, when is the opposite, wondering if you are ashamed to be Portuguese
Have a nice weekend


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## fmarks

you guys can discuss the lisbon treaty untill you turn blue ! the facts are 80% of the population don't even know or undestand what it is ! and the other 19.9% don't give a.....


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## John999

Agree and I mean 80% in all EU


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## Miguelsantos

John999 said:


> Why did you left Portugal behind? Was Salazar any different than Mussolini or Franco? If he had the same resources as Hitler god knows what he would done. The initial thread was about Lisbon treat, and you don´t seem to know much about it.
> What is more decadent in today’s mentality that the slavery business started by the Portuguese, XVII century, the saint crusades by the catholic church, the greed behind the Iraqi war, or Bin Laden , armed, trained, financed by the USA and the Brits during the cold war, (Afghanistan vs. URSS). Nothing of this has anything to do with the Lisbon treat, but I have always enjoyed a good discussion. Sharing opinions with experienced and mature people is one of my hobbies. I am sorry you can´t keep up with it
> Wondering why you registered yourself as, originally from the US expat in Portugal, when is the opposite, wondering if you are ashamed to be Portuguese
> Have a nice weekend


Salazar kept the German troops out of the country during the 2nd world war. Half of the Portuguese population as classified him has a national hero. I don´t think you can put Mussolini, Franco or Hitler in the same boat. Dictator but he looked after is people


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## John999

Miguelsantos said:


> Salazar kept the German troops out of the country during the 2nd world war. Half of the Portuguese population as classified him has a national hero. I don´t think you can put Mussolini, Franco or Hitler in the same boat. Dictator but he looked after is people


I know you believe in that Miguel, personally I think Salazar was a coward. He starved his people to feed the Nazis. He didn’t stop them, just bended over and gave them everything they asked for. A hero defends is house and family


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## siobhanwf

Two things that should NEVER be discussed... POLITICS and RELIGION


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## John999

siobhanwf said:


> Two things that should NEVER be discussed... POLITICS and RELIGION


I know, not everybody is capable to do it. A friendly discussion just points different points of view. Miguel is an intelligent lad, so I have no problems to discuss does matters with him


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## Miguelsantos

John999 said:


> I know, not everybody is capable to do it. A friendly discussion just points different points of view. Miguel is an intelligent lad, so I have no problems to discuss does matters with him


Thanks’ for that John; I’m surprised with the compliment. I know I’m only young but you know the old phrase, “can’t teach an old dog…” We have had some “discussions” and you, like my father, are very stubborn. The world changes every day guys and without hope, life has no meaning. So I hope things’ will get better and the world will be a better place to live in the future


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