# Long term stay in Germany to start a company



## tigermike

Hi,

I need to start a company in Germany. I understand the procedure will take time. I am thinking of Dusseldorf or around here.
I am a UK passport holder. My german is very bad but have visited Germany many times and most people I have met speak
english so have never had a problem, I will however learn the language.

I would like to know how long I can stay for or what I need to do to stay for extended periods. I will need to spend most of my time
in germany for at least 2 years so I can get some staff. Can I stay in Germany for 11 months in a year?

As soon as I reach Germany I will start the procedure to open a Ltd company or GmbH immediately. I believe this will take around a month
but maybe a little longer due to the current situation, even after covid ends it will take some time for things to get back to 'normal'.

I will stay in an aparthotel or airbnb till I can rent a flat.
As soon as I have the company running I will look for a small office.

any help or advice would be appreciated.


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## ALKB

tigermike said:


> Hi,
> 
> I need to start a company in Germany. I understand the procedure will take time. I am thinking of Dusseldorf or around here.
> I am a UK passport holder. My german is very bad but have visited Germany many times and most people I have met speak
> english so have never had a problem, I will however learn the language.
> 
> I would like to know how long I can stay for or what I need to do to stay for extended periods. I will need to spend most of my time
> in germany for at least 2 years so I can get some staff. Can I stay in Germany for 11 months in a year?
> 
> As soon as I reach Germany I will start the procedure to open a Ltd company or GmbH immediately. I believe this will take around a month
> but maybe a little longer due to the current situation, even after covid ends it will take some time for things to get back to 'normal'.
> 
> I will stay in an aparthotel or airbnb till I can rent a flat.
> As soon as I have the company running I will look for a small office.
> 
> any help or advice would be appreciated.


Do I understand right that you are not currently resident in Germany?

Since 1st January 2021, British citizens need a residence permit to stay longer than 90 days out of 180.









Entry and residence


Informationen für Einreise- und Aufenhaltsbestimmungen in Deutschland für Selbstständige und Nichtselbstständige.



www.duesseldorf.de













Visa for self-employment


Would you like to work as a freelancer or start a business in Germany? Find the right residence permit for your purpose on the Federal Government's portal.




www.make-it-in-germany.com


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## tigermike

ALKB said:


> Do I understand right that you are not currently resident in Germany?
> 
> Since 1st January 2021, British citizens need a residence permit to stay longer than 90 days out of 180.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Entry and residence
> 
> 
> Informationen für Einreise- und Aufenhaltsbestimmungen in Deutschland für Selbstständige und Nichtselbstständige.
> 
> 
> 
> www.duesseldorf.de
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Visa for self-employment
> 
> 
> Would you like to work as a freelancer or start a business in Germany? Find the right residence permit for your purpose on the Federal Government's portal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.make-it-in-germany.com


Indeed I am not currently resident in Germany. I am in the U.K.

Is it possible for me to go for 89 days, come back to the U.K for a weekend then return to Germany for another 89 days?
Just interested. Not really what I want to do, but I could do with going asap to start my GmbH which could take 2-3 months.

thank you for the info and link, I will look into this.
Obviously I will need this residence permit, can I obtain this from the U.K or do I need to get it in Germany?

any other help or advice is much appreciated.
Thank you.


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## Nononymous

If you don't have a residence permit, you'll be following the same Schengen rules as everyone else: in for 90 days then out for 90 days, and repeat. When doing the 90 out of 180 thing you are not allowed to work for a German employer, even though this would be considered a business trip.

Presumably it's better for you to apply immediately for the correct type of residence permit. Starting a business is one of the categories, but presumably the authorities want to see a business plan and proof of financing and all that.

I just had a look at the German embassy site for the UK. As expected, UK citizens have the same "privileged" status as Canadians or Americans, where you can show up without a visa then you have 90 days to get yourself established and sort out the paperwork with the Ausländerbehörde.


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## Tellus

Hi, don't know why you want to establish a company in Germany.
anyway, here are some points you should know.


Step 1: Establish a shareholder contract

At the beginning, of course, it should be clarified who should be involved in the foundation and what your/concrete business idea is. These and other formalities are recorded in the partnership agreement.

Alternatively, it is also possible to establish the GmbH using a sample protocol. However, this only makes sense up to the limit of three founders.

Step 2: Notarial renewal of the partnership agreement

If you have created the partnership agreement (possibly with the help of a lawyer), the next step is to have it notarized. Agree an appointment with the notary, at which all shareholders can be present.

After the notary has re-read the partnership agreement to all those present, they must sign the document. The notary then invoks the contract and also draws up a list of shareholders.

After the first visit to the notary, a pre-founding company becomes a GmbH in the foundation (GmbH i. G.).

Step 3: Deposit the master deposit into the business account

The next way will take you (and your founding team) to the bank where you open a business account.

Once this important point has been settled, at least half of the share capital (i.e. EUR 12,500) must be paid in.

It is essential for the financial institution to certify the deposit, because this document is important for the fourth step of the foundation.

You'll need a "Meldeadresse" , Registration address, legally enforceable. No Hotel, Hostel, AirbnB whatever.
Proof of civil status: marriage certificate, birth certificate of the children, if necessary death certificate of the spouse
Proof of financial situation:
When employed: payrolls of the last three months / employment contract
In the case of independence: deed of ownership or other proof of ownership (proof of property, proof of income from agriculture (sales form), etc.), Health Insurance f.i. Travel insurance for some month.
Your company's bank statements from the last three months
Business References etc.

So it 's not easy to establish a company in Germany, very bureaucratic at all.
In my personal case I would take a trip to Estonia and open a business digital. One step to a bank, sign and go...








Business — Estonia


The Estonian business environment enables you to focus on growing your business instead of dealing with red tape.




estonia.ee


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## ALKB

tigermike said:


> Indeed I am not currently resident in Germany. I am in the U.K.
> 
> Is it possible for me to go for 89 days, come back to the U.K for a weekend then return to Germany for another 89 days?
> Just interested. Not really what I want to do, but I could do with going asap to start my GmbH which could take 2-3 months.
> 
> thank you for the info and link, I will look into this.
> Obviously I will need this residence permit, can I obtain this from the U.K or do I need to get it in Germany?
> 
> any other help or advice is much appreciated.
> Thank you.


It's 90 days in any rolling 180, so you can take many short trips or stay for 90 days, then stay away for 90 days. You can't do a 'visa run' to reset the counting.









Schengen Calculator - Calculate Your Legal Short-Stay in Europe


Schengen Calculator for Visa-Free visitors and holders of multiple entry visas valid for six months and with 90 days of permitted duration of stay.




www.schengenvisainfo.com





Residence permits can only be obtained within Germany. (Visa=entry clearance, residence permit = permission to stay long term). Visa nationals need to enter Germany with a - usually - 90 day visa that is convertible to a residence permit = not a tourist visa.

British citizens are not visa nationals, so you get your 'visa' at the border when you passport is stamped.

Have a look at the requirements to get a permit for staying on a self-employed/business owner basis. It's not easy and it doesn't even touch on the actual process for establishing the business. Also be aware that the authorities can deem that your business is not needed in the area, that your business plan is not detailed enough or any type of thing and can refuse a permit.

It's a pity that you didn't move over and start a company before the end of last year.


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## *Sunshine*

tigermike said:


> As soon as I reach Germany I will start the procedure to open a Ltd company or GmbH immediately. I believe this will take around a month
> but maybe a little longer due to the current situation, even after covid ends it will take some time for things to get back to 'normal'.


Does it really have to be Germany? You don't even speak German and will need a lawyer to handle the legalities for you anyway. Might as well choose an EU country with less red tape.

I'm think your plan is rathered flawed and you are over optimistic. In addition to the valid comments that have already been made, I'm not sure whether you are even allowed to enter the Schengen Area due to the current pandemic entry restrictions for third country nationals. Before you should carefully read the entry requirements.


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## tigermike

Nononymous said:


> If you don't have a residence permit, you'll be following the same Schengen rules as everyone else: in for 90 days then out for 90 days, and repeat. When doing the 90 out of 180 thing you are not allowed to work for a German employer, even though this would be considered a business trip.
> 
> Presumably it's better for you to apply immediately for the correct type of residence permit. Starting a business is one of the categories, but presumably the authorities want to see a business plan and proof of financing and all that.
> 
> I just had a look at the German embassy site for the UK. As expected, UK citizens have the same "privileged" status as Canadians or Americans, where you can show up without a visa then you have 90 days to get yourself established and sort out the paperwork with the Ausländerbehörde.


many thanks for your response, I understand and intend to apply for residence permit and open a GmbH.
Thank you for your time and effort, really appreciate it.

Tigermike


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## tigermike

Tellus said:


> Hi, don't know why you want to establish a company in Germany.
> anyway, here are some points you should know.
> 
> 
> Step 1: Establish a shareholder contract
> 
> At the beginning, of course, it should be clarified who should be involved in the foundation and what your/concrete business idea is. These and other formalities are recorded in the partnership agreement.
> 
> Alternatively, it is also possible to establish the GmbH using a sample protocol. However, this only makes sense up to the limit of three founders.
> 
> Step 2: Notarial renewal of the partnership agreement
> 
> If you have created the partnership agreement (possibly with the help of a lawyer), the next step is to have it notarized. Agree an appointment with the notary, at which all shareholders can be present.
> 
> After the notary has re-read the partnership agreement to all those present, they must sign the document. The notary then invoks the contract and also draws up a list of shareholders.
> 
> After the first visit to the notary, a pre-founding company becomes a GmbH in the foundation (GmbH i. G.).
> 
> Step 3: Deposit the master deposit into the business account
> 
> The next way will take you (and your founding team) to the bank where you open a business account.
> 
> Once this important point has been settled, at least half of the share capital (i.e. EUR 12,500) must be paid in.
> 
> It is essential for the financial institution to certify the deposit, because this document is important for the fourth step of the foundation.
> 
> You'll need a "Meldeadresse" , Registration address, legally enforceable. No Hotel, Hostel, AirbnB whatever.
> Proof of civil status: marriage certificate, birth certificate of the children, if necessary death certificate of the spouse
> Proof of financial situation:
> When employed: payrolls of the last three months / employment contract
> In the case of independence: deed of ownership or other proof of ownership (proof of property, proof of income from agriculture (sales form), etc.), Health Insurance f.i. Travel insurance for some month.
> Your company's bank statements from the last three months
> Business References etc.
> 
> So it 's not easy to establish a company in Germany, very bureaucratic at all.
> In my personal case I would take a trip to Estonia and open a business digital. One step to a bank, sign and go...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Business — Estonia
> 
> 
> The Estonian business environment enables you to focus on growing your business instead of dealing with red tape.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> estonia.ee


I know all of this and as you state as you don't know why I want to start a business in germany the recommendation for estonia is out of the question 100%.
I understand the beaurocracy which was the same before brexit and the numerous procedures which I agree with and understand.
For me it is easy to provide the documentation they require. I also disagree that you state it is not easy, I think it is but takes times for obvious and understandable reasons.
The requirements make me feel confident in the country and doing business there. It's only a problem if you don't have all the documentation or want to fuss over providing
information. I'd rather not waste time and just give them the documentation as I have it all.
There are no partners just me as sole director / shareholder, I cant remember the captial required when I checked as it was some time back but thought it was 
between £20-£40k. In any case it's fine for either amount as I will need that money to start the company and buy stock.
I cannot give details of the business for obvious reasons. I have looked into opening a GmbH before so understand the procedure.

the only thing I need clarification on is what I can use as a "Meldeadresse" registration address not just what I can't, can this be a flat I rent for example?
however I believe this can be a nominee also which I may have to use if a rented flat cannot be used.

thank you for your time.


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## tigermike

ALKB said:


> It's 90 days in any rolling 180, so you can take many short trips or stay for 90 days, then stay away for 90 days. You can't do a 'visa run' to reset the counting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Schengen Calculator - Calculate Your Legal Short-Stay in Europe
> 
> 
> Schengen Calculator for Visa-Free visitors and holders of multiple entry visas valid for six months and with 90 days of permitted duration of stay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.schengenvisainfo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Residence permits can only be obtained within Germany. (Visa=entry clearance, residence permit = permission to stay long term). Visa nationals need to enter Germany with a - usually - 90 day visa that is convertible to a residence permit = not a tourist visa.
> 
> British citizens are not visa nationals, so you get your 'visa' at the border when you passport is stamped.
> 
> Have a look at the requirements to get a permit for staying on a self-employed/business owner basis. It's not easy and it doesn't even touch on the actual process for establishing the business. Also be aware that the authorities can deem that your business is not needed in the area, that your business plan is not detailed enough or any type of thing and can refuse a permit.
> 
> It's a pity that you didn't move over and start a company before the end of last year.


Indeed I wish I had done this before the end of last year and actually was in the process of starting this just before covid started at the start of the year.
However, I didn't want to take any risk, have hardly been anywhere since covid started so i'm happy i'm healthy as I have no family what so ever and the
person whom was like a father to me passed due to covid after returning from Italy.
This meant I was unwilling to do this as it's only to make money.
I feel the situation is better with a vaccine and need to do this asap as the situation with the U.K and the EU has become very tit for tat and I feel they may make this
harder so would rather get it over and done with and is affecting my business more and more.

many thanks for your time and help, I appreciate it more than you may know.


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## tigermike

*Sunshine* said:


> Does it really have to be Germany? You don't even speak German and will need a lawyer to handle the legalities for you anyway. Might as well choose an EU country with less red tape.
> 
> I'm think your plan is rathered flawed and you are over optimistic. In addition to the valid comments that have already been made, I'm not sure whether you are even allowed to enter the Schengen Area due to the current pandemic entry restrictions for third country nationals. Before you should carefully read the entry requirements.


Yes sunshine! it really has to be in Germany. Where did I state that I don't speak German? I do it's just very bad, the reason it is bad despite over 50 trips to Germany is because germans are
very educated and many, especially in business speak english and I've never had a problem so end up learning very little more than I did from school. In France however it is different and they
hate you for not speaking French, I did more French in school and though have still visited a lot it has been less than my Germany visits but speak better French as you will get much further in France
by speaking French.

Stating 
"I might as well choose an EU country with less red tape" & "i'm think your plan is rather flawed and you are over optimistic"
is amazingly assumptuous. I have already done the research and know the procedures of opening a GmbH, it is what it is.
If I need a lawyer, I need one, it wont be the first time and needed one for just getting a VAT number in Spain. Now Spain was hard work as it was very time comsuming.
In comparison German is easy and the process and requirements understandable. For example, who doesn't have 3 - 6 months bank statements? I will be taking 2 yrs worth
just in case as it is just some papers, I will even scan them as pdf's so I can email them to whoever needs them. I don't see what is so hard.
It is bureaucratic compared to the U.K but for good reason. The lack of bureaucracy in the U.K leads to more people coming here for fraudulent activity and makes people here think
anyone can run a company as it is so easy to start one, they even think they are right and good at business, I see this a lot. This also leads to people starting a ltd company building
credit and liquidating, rinse and repeat as a way of having easy income. It's too easy here.
I already have a German VAT number for my U.K business so that should help, even if only a little.
If i cannot enter the country, no problem we will get closer to the restrictions being lifted as as soon as I can I will go, I need to know the requirements which is me getting a residence permit.
I can rent a flat but will need a hotel till I find a flat.

Sorry to say it like this but I just think it's funny, that's all... I'm afraid you're wrong Sunshine!!!
thank you for your repsonse but it will be Germany, it is the only option so need to stay on topic.


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## *Sunshine*

tigermike said:


> Yes sunshine! it really has to be in Germany. Where did I state that I don't speak German? I do it's just very bad, the reason it is bad despite over 50 trips to Germany is because germans are
> very educated and many, especially in business speak english and I've never had a problem so end up learning very little more than I did from school. In France however it is different and they
> hate you for not speaking French, I did more French in school and though have still visited a lot it has been less than my Germany visits but speak better French as you will get much further in France
> by speaking French.


You might be able to find some Germans who speak English well, however, I happen to know many who don't. I lived for a year in France and have lived almost two decades in Germany. Your plan is built on many false assumptions, but feel free to claim that you've researched your plans well, your initial questions belie your claim. 

Get professional legal advice. It is clear you have no idea what you are doing.


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## tigermike

*Sunshine* said:


> You might be able to find some Germans who speak English well, however, I happen to know many who don't. I lived for a year in France and have lived almost two decades in Germany. Your plan is built on many false assumptions, but feel free to claim that you've researched your plans well, your initial questions belie your claim.
> 
> Get professional legal advice. It is clear you have no idea what you are doing.


ok, better if you please leave this for others to help whom have already done so also.
I already do business in Germany, the question I have asked is as this has recently changed due to brexit therefore the question has nothing to do with my knowledge or research
which was done about a year and a half ago. I have indeed looked into opening a GmbH and have zero issues providing the documents and already have a german VAT number.
I do business with companies and most people I have met speak english. If you know many that don't then there is a difference in the people we have met.
Your claim that it is clear I have no idea what I am doing when you don't know me or what I have done is wrong. I have no issue providing the documents either.
I can get a few multinational's to vouch for me and provide an invite, two of them are German companies.


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## Nononymous

Sounds like this is completely under control. You will have 90 days to get it sorted with the Ausländerbehörde, or back to the UK you go. Nothing to do now but wait until you are allowed to enter Germany.


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