# One for the Experts !



## bambooo (Mar 19, 2014)

Hi there !
This may be a question for those that know the laws about buying property in Portugal !

I came across this 'Zona em franca expansão turística' and google translated it comes out as this ;Tourist area in frank expansion

Would I be right in thinking it means Tourism is on the increase or even will be encouraged in this zone ???

Thanks


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Think in this context more likely to be free/open than frank but often need the whole to get its true meaning, but some Camaras will have areas designated for "tourism" but probably specific type of desirable tourism


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## bambooo (Mar 19, 2014)

Hi canoeman
Thanks , I am thinking too that it is Camara having a designated area for Tourism as it is referring to an area Around Evora !

Thanks again ;-)


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Most Camaras publish PDM's showing areas that have specific designation like housing, industrial. protected etc some are better than others

Theses are Evora's
CME - Conteudos DOGT > Sistema de Gestão Territorial > Âmbito Municipal > Plano Director Municipal

You can find other Camara web sites by searching Camara name + cm, English option is often very limited and you need Portuguese version to make full use


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## bambooo (Mar 19, 2014)

canoeman said:


> Most Camaras publish PDM's showing areas that have specific designation like housing, industrial. protected etc some are better than others
> 
> Theses are Evora's
> CME - Conteudos DOGT > Sistema de Gestão Territorial > Âmbito Municipal > Plano Director Municipal
> ...


Thanks Canoeman !
Yeah , you're right , No English version , not much good for potential investors eh !


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## bambooo (Mar 19, 2014)

Hi there 'Experts' 

I came across this today from a Company that supplies wooden cabins 

"isenção de licenciamento Camarário ( pode colocar em qualquer terreno mesmo onde não é autorizada construção )"

Google translation :
exemption from licensing camarário (can put on any terrain where same is unauthorized construction)

Can anyone 'Shed' any light on this , I take it as meaning they can be put virtually anywhere , but then the company supplying them would say that would'nt they !

Thanks


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

C/M will be able to give you chapter and verse but it's not always as clean cut as that. 

Although you can put them in some places, there are others you cannot and even if you can place them in an area, you might not be able to have services connected or install a fosse etc. 

The restriction seems to often be on 'permanent structures' or 'structures with permanent bases' such as concrete slabs etc. Therefore a slab might not be allowed but a wooden base might be. 

Cabril for example has lakeside plots going for a song but the reason for that is they don't let you do anything significant with them. 

On the subject of PITA legalities, are you aware that night fishing is usually illegal here in Portugal? - I think the reason for that is risk of fire but it really does stuff up the fishing possibilities. 

As for the lack of English language on investment sites...... welcome to Portugal. As much as I like the Portuguese people, their marketing skills are non existent.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Night fishing is illegal as is "wild camping" which I think is the reason, also a max of 2 rods and don't fish without your Licence or ID you stand a very good chance of all your equipment being impounded and fines.

The law says that if you reguire any type of concrete foundations then you require planning permission, you have further complications in designation of land and can you "build on it" also drainage and power. So yes you could put one in place but you wouldn't legally be able to attach services unless they were there and possibly not even then.

As you want presumably a "legal" operation then any unit will need any reguired permission, in the context of your operation, if you don't want to be legal then it's your risk but the Government are making more strongly worded announcements that they are clamping down on illegal holiday accommodation.

Portugal Government does have a good site in English on investment and people to ash and help


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## bambooo (Mar 19, 2014)

Hi there !
Thanks to you both for your replies !

travelling-man Yes I am aware of the night fishing rule which is sad because some of the best cats and Carp are caught after Dusk , I don't really see how that has anything to do with fires unless your reel is spinning so fast it catches fire through friction ! 'joke' but maybe if you are fishing from the bank then you may wish to light a fire ? Did I see you post something about boats and 6hp engines ?

canoeman 
Yes of Course I would like to do everything above board and I sort of understand about the land classifications , obviously nothing on florestal or nature reserves but I am thinking more of a small 1-2ha Quinta that already has buildings and service connected !

Do you have a link to the Portugal Government site in English ?

Thanks


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

Bamboo

Ja. Boats can be a problem in that you are only allowed a craft of up to 5 metres and 5 hp without a boat handling qualification which can only be obtained in Portugal by sitting an exam in Portuguese....... They'll accept other EU boat handling qualifications but for me, that'd mean a trip to the UK and doing a course there and quite honestly, it's more trouble than it's worth.

Some inland waters such as Cabril etc only allow 4 stroke motors as well BTW.

Yet another problem is getting the damn thing properly registered........ my 3.8 metre boat somehow got accidentally registered as a 38 metre commercial fishing vessel that was licenced to fish with trawls, traps, longlines and sport fishing rods......... and then of course the PT tax authorities wrote to me asking me to declare my income from said 38 metre commercial fishing vessel!   

Fortunately, I've got a Portuguese friend who is a lawyer and he managed to get it de-registered but now I have no bloody idea if I need to start again or just not bother with it all.

I only use the boat a handful of times a year and frankly wish I'd never bought the damn thing!

Yes. The concern is that bank fishermen will build a camp fire that'll get out of control........ why they didn't just ban campfires but allow night fishing, I have no idea!


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

"Fortunately, I've got a Portuguese friend who is a lawyer and he managed to get it de-registered but now I have no bloody idea if I need to start again or just not bother with it all."

if you want to use it even once a year or sell it then yes
4 strikes cuts pollution down in water 

Thought I'd already posted Investment site Invest in Portugal

Small Quinta yes but land will still have classifications, just because it's there doesn't mean you can build anywhere on it, most land has a "buildable" percentage, the trick with outbuildings is there classified as annexes and not amazens or store rooms.

The type of operation you seem to be looking comes under the umbrella of the Portuguese Tourist Board who do publish the relevant Decrees in English, not saying these things are easy to find but they are there
https://www.google.pt/url?sa=t&rct=...=jOnfvT3FEKZ609TihEq1UQ&bvm=bv.68693194,d.d2k


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## bambooo (Mar 19, 2014)

Hi c/m !
Thanks for the links , I'll check them out !

*Yes I do understand this* 'Small Quinta yes but land will still have classifications, just because it's there doesn't mean you can build anywhere on it'

Surely wooden cabins are not classed as buildings if they are not on concrete bases ? 

Thanks for the info , it's helping me build a better picture of what I may or may not be able to do !


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## bambooo (Mar 19, 2014)

travelling-man !
The 4-5hp rule is a bit silly really , I'm not saying that everyone should be able to have 50hp plus engines because we all know what the inexperienced will do ! but on somewhere as big as Cabril or the Tejo the weather can change very quickly and with a couple of anglers and their fishing gear on a boat and only a small engine you could get into difficulty quite easily if the wind is pushing up waves and you are fighting against them !

Is there a limit to how many 4-5hp engines you can have on one boat , probably 

Thanks


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

bambooo said:


> Hi c/m !
> Thanks for the links , I'll check them out !
> 
> *Yes I do understand this* 'Small Quinta yes but land will still have classifications, just because it's there doesn't mean you can build anywhere on it'
> ...


As I said whether there buildings or not will depend on their end use and what the requirements are for the "enterprise" you want permission for, yes I've seen "sheds" on stilts rather than concrete foundations of some type, but not hooked up to drainage and power, anything but a simple AL Licence is a long road of multi level permissions, wonder how TM's friend got on with his?


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## bambooo (Mar 19, 2014)

Hi cm !
Thanks, I really do appreciate the info , well that's surely something to look forward too ;-) !


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

Bamboo

1 motor only I'm afraid........ although they might also allow an electric trolling motor as well. 

C/M

Not sure which friend you mean? but I know several people who have tried to set up small businesses with yurts etc and most of them have eventually decided it was more trouble than it's worth. 

I also know of several log cabins that were built overlooking Cabril without permission and are unable to get connected to services..... As far as I know, they've been sat there unused for several years and a variety of court cases are supposed to be going on but so far, nothing has changed. 

If they ever do change the law to make building on lakeside plots possible and/or night fishing 
legal, those plots will obviously soar in value.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

He's not posted for a while tonycharlton


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

OK....... Tony decided the yurt thing was far too much hassle for him so he knocked the idea on the head.


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