# Where should snowbirds buy land for tropical horticulture?



## CSmith (Jan 6, 2014)

Our goal is to buy land in Mexico.

Our primary criteria
1. No frosts or freezes.
2. Sunny, warm and dry January through March.
3. Enough rainfall throughout the year that unattended perennials can take care of themselves.
4. 10 hectares or more in a rural setting for horticulture, agriculture, and reforestation.
5. Low risk of violent crime.
6. Lowest population density (both native and expat) consistent with the above.

What we're working with
1. A tentative budget of 1-1.5 million pesos.
2. A one-week on-the-ground fact-finding trip late this winter.
3. A desire to complete a purchase by this summer.

We'd like your
1. Ideas regarding locations which may meet our criteria,
2. Recommendations about specific places or people we might consider visiting during our fact-finding trip, and
3. Thoughts about which location has the highest chance of being a good fit for the criteria.

We've been doing research, but in the spirit of brainstorming, we'd like to hear your ideas without influence from ours.

Thanks in advance.

TL;DR. Where in Mexico does it never freeze, have perfect weather January-March, and is a good fit for some eco-gringos to engage in horticulture?


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

Southern Veracruz and/or Tabasco.


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

Personally I don't think you are going to get any relevant suggestions ... and don't think you will have a lot of luck when you visit. A 100,000 dollars is not a lot of money for 24+ acres of good farm land. Farms in this area have 2-3 crops a year and are worth a lot.

Much farmland is still Ejido throwing in another twist. How good is your Spanish? Buying hurriedly into an area you are not familiar with is asking for trouble.

You want a house on the property and electricity for your well? Bringing in new electric can be very expensive.

Just IMO


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## Lorij (Jul 8, 2012)

Southern Oaxaca or possibly Vera Cruz. Oaxaca of course would be my choice. MY Hubby has family in Chacalapa that we visit and stay with sometimes, its rural enough there for agriculture, and a short 25 minutes to the beach. And Oaxaca has no travel advisories in effect.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

sparks said:


> Personally I don't think you are going to get any relevant suggestions ... and don't think you will have a lot of luck when you visit. A 100,000 dollars is not a lot of money for 24+ acres of good farm land. Farms in this area have 2-3 crops a year and are worth a lot.
> 
> Much farmland is still Ejido throwing in another twist. How good is your Spanish?  Buying hurriedly into an area you are not familiar with is asking for trouble.
> 
> ...


My friend and his friend from Dallas, Tx. paid up front 1/2 for a beachfront lot in Feb. 2010 and still have no escriptura from the notario who gave the money to the owner. It is ejido land.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Southern Oaxaca is too arid the area around Fortin de las Flores is full of nurseries and I have a friend there who has an incredible garden. The chipichipi and the warm weather is perfect for plants, I would explore the countryside around that area and souther. Vera Cruz,


There is a huge orchard of tropital plums overlooking the river in Chiapa de Corzo Chiapas on the edge of town for sale it is on a slope beautiful vew of the river by the embarcadero for the canyon de Sumidero for sale for 1 million pesos. It also has a commercial value as it is on the edge of town near the embarcadero..the local think it is too much money so I can imagine what you can get in the middle of nowhere in some areas of Mexico. My husband is in love with the area but I think tropical weather is good for plants not for me...


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

Mr. Smith,
I think you are, if I may say so, dreaming. Most of what you seek is not going to be found in one spot. Ejido land is to be avoided, as you probably will never get a good deed. Leaving anything unattended is asking for problems. Farmers live in towns and often have to hire watchmen to oversee their crops and property, providing living quarters for them, etc. Many areas have rainy seasons, not steady rain. Water can be a serious problem and is not cheap; the government owns it all, even if you dig a well you will pay for the water. Other areas have so much sunshine that crop covers are required.
In one week, you wont even find your way around a small village and locate options or the appropriate people. Sorry, but you would probably have to move to Mexico, become a Permanent Resident with the appropriate visa and study, area by area, to discover what possibilities might exist.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

Now, I´m no farmer but if I were seeking to fulfill the criteria you have set out to establsh a farm specializing in tropical fruits and vegetables in Mexico where there is not even a remote chance of frost and rain may be expected all year around if more copious and dependable in the summer, I would seek out lands in the coastal Soconusco region of Chiapas state located between the imposing Sierra Madre de Chiapas Mountains and the Pacific Ocean somewhere between Arriaga and Tapachula, Chiapas. A vast territory devoted mainly to fishing and agriculture and dotted with small villages for the most part inhabited by poor fishermen and farmers. The price you wish to pay for farmland would be appropriate and negotiable there, the climate is perfect for tropical agriculture and the land fecund. 

It would be advisable, in my opinion, for you to to be conversant in Spanish and possess a modicum of negotiating skills if you decide to settle and farm in that región. Damn nice people in general and a fine place to live.


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## geaaronson (Apr 4, 2013)

Or you could consider the Yucatan peninsular. We do have "viveros" but not many along the Route 180 between Merida and Cancun, most especially on the old road, la ruta libre. Remember that if you buy land that is more than 50 kms from a national border or from the coast, the bank doesn`t hold the mortgage, you do. Otherwise you will have to have a fidecismo (sp), which means that the bank is the titled owner and you pay several hundred dollars a year for the lands usage until you pass away at which point your heirs do not inherit the land, the bank does.
If you were in Quintanaroo for example you would be close enough to Cancun and use it for export purposes for your produce and trips back to good ole usa, (airflights are continuous throughout the day, cancun being a major tourist point of entry) but remember you will have to hire a lawyer for an export license.


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## geaaronson (Apr 4, 2013)

A few points in addition. Yucatan agricultural lands are not particularly conducive to vegetable growing but to papaya and mango. Blue agave is also being grown, a new addition to the crops grown here in the peninsular, successfully so from a financial point. There are a number of viveros, garden centers throughout but not to the extent you see in the other areas of Mexico like Tamalaupis (sp?). Honey production and citrus are the principal growth crops.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Fideicomiso:



Immigration to Mexico - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


"The 1917 Mexican constitution imposed restrictions on the purchase of land on those without Mexican citizenship. In particular, it prohibits direct ownership of real estate in what is known as the "restricted zone". This zone encompasses all land within 100 km of either Mexican land border and within 50 km of any Mexican coastline. Land 'purchases' in these areas can only be done via a mechanism called a fideicomiso, which roughly is a real estate trust, with a Mexican bank designated as the trustee and having possession of the land title. This mechanism was created to allow for foreign investment in these areas without violating the constitutional principle. The beneficiary of the trust, the foreigner, has all the rights to use, build and sell the property at its market buyer to any eligible buyer. These trusts have a term of 50 years and are renewable.[2] The annual cost of these trusts levied by an underwriting bank, separate from the legal costs paid by a property buyer to establish such a trust, may escalate annually; but presently (in 2011) they have a cap on percentage of annual increase chargeable by banks."


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

Did the OP ever state what they wanted to plant?


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## geaaronson (Apr 4, 2013)

It is absolutely essential to hire a Mexican lawyer who will do a legitimate title search on property you wish to buy. Here in the state of Yucatán, you expect your lawyer to visit the capital, 2 hours away, to go to the government office to do a deed search. No other government agencies have the correct information. If you do not do this, you are taking a big risk as other posters have stated, the land may be ejido land (land belonging technically to the village in which it is located, to be used only by those people granted by the village elders who made the choices as to users years ago). Be careful. Do your homework.


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## Azuledos (Jan 21, 2010)

See our prior posts:  Chipi-chipi in Veracruz and  Life in Western Veracruz for some info on the area around our home in Fortín de las Flores, which is at 3000' on the eastern slopes at the southern end of the Sierra Occidental. The requirements you list in your original post are all satisfied here. We did lots of research looking for exactly the conditions you specify, except (as "retired" ex-ecotopians) we were looking for only enough real estate to keep our thumbs green and surround ourselves with flowers year-round.

Dan & Carmen


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

chicois8 said:


> Did the OP ever state what they wanted to plant?


Did the OP ever come back ??? Another one bit the dust !!


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## Azuledos (Jan 21, 2010)

Sorry, that's "Sierra Oriental". (I tried to change that post right away but no "Edit" button appears, altho' it says at the bottom that a may do so.) To the original OP, email me at the addresses shown on either of my blogs, since as a newbie here you can't PM yet.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

geaaronson said:


> It is absolutely essential to hire a Mexican lawyer who will do a legitimate title search on property you wish to buy. Here in the state of Yucatán, you expect your lawyer to visit the capital, 2 hours away, to go to the government office to do a deed search. No other government agencies have the correct information. If you do not do this, you are taking a big risk as other posters have stated, the land may be ejido land (land belonging technically to the village in which it is located, to be used only by those people granted by the village elders who made the choices as to users years ago). Be careful. Do your homework.


It is a NOTARIO who must handle real estate matters, not just an abogado. Notarios have very special training and qualifications. They are appointed by the state. Even then, you should know the ropes yourself, as strange things sometimes happen to newbies.


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## CSmith (Jan 6, 2014)

Thanks to everyone for all the great information! We're still here, Sparks. We'll do our best to let all you kind folks know when we leave the thread.

To get started, here's a follow-up question. One of our 4 short-listed options was Nayarit roughly along a line from Puerto Vallarta to Tepic to Guadalajara. No one mentioned the area. Any feedback on that as a possible choice?

Joaquinx and Lorij, western Veracruz was another of our 4 short-listed options. Thank you for helping confirm it as a serious contender. Citlati and Azuledos, Fortin de las Flores was not specifically on our list, but we were using the Cordoba area as the southern limit for our research. I now think Fortin de las Flores really should serve as our northen limit as we go forward. Thanks so much for pointing out such a specific location. That's really helpful to us!

Citlati, highlands Chiapas was another of our 4 short-listed options. Thanks so much for the very specific reference to the orchard for sale in Chiapa de Corzo! 

HoundDog, the Pacific coast strip in Chiapas had not found its way onto our radar. Thank you for bringing it to our attention. We do very much like your description of the area. One item on our "nice to have" list is that the area is not slated to become the next "in" area for an economy based on tourism. It seems Soconusco might be enough off the beaten path to have this added advantage. We'll be doing more research. It will now be the last of our 4 short-listed options.

Geaaronson, we considered the Yucatan. Another item on our "nice to have" list is good airline accessibility, which Cancun provides in spades. That, coupled with low population density, makes the area attractive to us. It has not found its way onto any of our final lists primarily for two reasons. First, the flatness of the area simply didn't make our hearts sing when we've visited. Also, if we end up living at the property year round, we have nightmares of summer humidity being oppressive away from the coasts. Thank you for the title search information.

Chicois8, we're interested in citrus along with the largest variety of tropicals permitted by the climate in the location we choose. Gearronson, I don't see us being involved in market or export agriculture, at least initially, but we do appreciate the interesting ideas regarding agave, papaya and mango in the Yucatan. To add some more information into the mix, our initial interest is in horticultural experimentation on a homestead scale. We're hoping for a relatively large piece of land so that we have the option of expanding into agricultural production, or more likely, simply engaging in ecological conservation or reforestation. We certainly aren't looking to dissipate our modest capital, but in terms of returns on investment, our primary interests relate to non-financial ones.

Azuledos, thank you for the invitation to email. Please watch your inbox at your ete-----gmail account for an email from our the-----yahoo account.

We're so pleased and encouraged by the thoughtful comments provided here so far. We're considering everything you all say very carefully. We'll keep reading until you tire of writing!


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

>>>>> To get started, here's a follow-up question. One of our 4 short-listed options was Nayarit roughly along a line from Puerto Vallarta to Tepic to Guadalajara. No one mentioned the area. Any feedback on that as a possible choice?

That sounds like the planned Rivera Nayarit area with grand plans for the whole coast line and a new highway which is long over due. Those beach communities are some of the highest priced on the coast and you really can't see much inland from that terrible highway 200.

Glad you liked my comment but so many with here-today-gone-tomorrow dreams of starting a "new age community" in Mexico. A few with LOTS of money make it. Good luck with whatever your plan is but be careful


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## thehoosier (Sep 10, 2010)

I have an organic farm in the Yucatan. There is lots of good land here that you can grow anything that can handle the tropics. Much more than just Papaya and Mango. There are lots of land to be found, but like other people said you will have to avoid Ejido. Do not let a realtor or lawyer talk you into pursuing Ejido. Let that be a red flag. 

I really lucked out when I bought my land. The owner was unaware that the value of land increases greatly once its no longer ejido. I paid 20,000 including legal fees for 20 acres. Just on the edge of a pueblo and 15 minutes from the beach. Weather is really great in this region. Breezy and temperate, but with some hot afternoon especially in the hot season. 

I almost suggest picking a pueblo you feel comfortable living near and look for land from there. No matter what part of Mexico you are in. Not all pueblos are the same. Most are quaint and charming and others can be poverty stricken and depressing. Dzidzantun, where I live, is a town full of teachers and professionals. There is more money here than in the average pueblo. Which means more conveniences. 

As for being snow birds, you will have to have someone manage you land and home while you are away. I could never imagine just leaving a property here in the jungle for months at a time and not expect to find disaster on return. As much as I love my jungle living, its a constant battle against nature and the elements.


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## geaaronson (Apr 4, 2013)

If you are looking for large acreage, you might consider a former hacienda. Here in the Yucatán there are many to choose from as the remnants of the henequén explosión 100 years ago are still intact, no longer in use, and for that reason may be extremely fertile.
I don´t know about the latter, not being a farmer myself. And of yes, citrus is big in the very center of the state near Oxkutzkob and the Ruta Puuc. But I am sure you would find haciendas to purchase in Veracruz as well.


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