# What documents for move?



## tigerpoeton (May 5, 2010)

Hi All, My partner and myself are shortly moving to Spain (Alicante area) we have done some extensive reasearch about our move but are still unsure on a few key things!!

We will be driving over with our dogs (Passports, Blood tests fully done) but do we need anything other than our passports at the borders?

Also to live there other than of course the residence form is there anything else we need to do?
We will be renting to start off with as we are young (21,20) and the reccesion has prevented us from any kind of mortgage so will I need to provide the estate agent with any documentation?

The problem is my girlfriend runs an online shop but she doesnt actually handle the products, Its a little more complex but basically an order is placed from a client in the uk then she will place that order with her supplier also in the uk and it is sent directly to the consumer, I.E she is virtually a middle-man (Or lady haha!), The money is all dealt with from a uk account hence she wont have a proveable income as far as the spanish government can see, I am a Mechanic and hoping to start up mobile in Spain to serve the ex-pat community primarily so my business will be very slow to begin with and I probably wont be making a lot after the E250PCM self employment charge, Will the government want to see our incomes because if so it may prove difficult and although we will be living in spain all the money my girlfriend deals with will be subject to uk tax is that going to be ok?


Anyway many thanks in advance and I look forward to hearing from you all


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

tigerpoeton said:


> Hi All, My partner and myself are shortly moving to Spain (Alicante area) we have done some extensive reasearch about our move but are still unsure on a few key things!!
> 
> We will be driving over with our dogs (Passports, Blood tests fully done) but do we need anything other than our passports at the borders?
> 
> ...


I'm hazy on the tax issue, but my understanding is that if you spend more than 6 months a year in Spain you have to pay your taxes here. I think you should speak to the tax office, obviously your girlfriend wont want to pay tax in both countries, I think she'll need to fill in a tax form in the UK and in Spain.

To rent, you'll need some proof of income or payslips/bank statements proving it and most agents will require to see a bank statement from a Spanish bank to show your intent I believe??!. But most agents will require a deposit and rental up front as security. 

Once you're here you'll need to register with the Ayuntamiento (town hall) and you'll need to get NIE numbers, which you have to go to your nearest large police station with your passports and two passport sized photos. NIE is important so that you can make any big purchases

I think driving thru to Spain is relatively straight forward, just passports!? I hope it all goes smoothly for you both. 

Jo xxx


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Be sure to apply for E106 before you leave. It entitles you to state health care in Spain for a limited period, usually up to 2 years or until you start work or self-employment, whichever is sooner. Your eligibility depends on your NI contribution record during the last three full tax years, 2006-2009. You apply to the International Pension Centre in Newcastle - google for contact details.
Also read Accessing healthcare in Spain


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

We crossed three borders when driving here with our passported, injected, chipped and tattooed dog and were not stopped once and asked to produce documents.
We were surprised as our dog is large and was clearly visible to the few Customs officials about.


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## tigerpoeton (May 5, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> We crossed three borders when driving here with our passported, injected, chipped and tattooed dog and were not stopped once and asked to produce documents.
> We were surprised as our dog is large and was clearly visible to the few Customs officials about.


Iv actually heard that quite a lot, I think its the uk that is really the strict one, We were debating weather to even get it all done but I guess if you dont then sods law says it will be you that gets stopped!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

tigerpoeton said:


> Iv actually heard that quite a lot, I think its the uk that is really the strict one, We were debating weather to even get it all done but I guess if you dont then sods law says it will be you that gets stopped!


If you have to take the dog back to the UK, you'll need it done without doubt and you have to wait 6 months for the rabies jabs to "mature"!

Jo xxx


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## tigerpoeton (May 5, 2010)

jojo said:


> If you have to take the dog back to the UK, you'll need it done without doubt and you have to wait 6 months for the rabies jabs to "mature"!
> 
> Jo xxx


Lol yeah thats what the vets said, I like how you put it 'Mature' lol, Yeah I think we will be all sorted with the dogs the only thing Im really concerned about is the spanish government asking why we are not 'Making an income' as to them they wont be seeing anything, Hopefully I am going to open a Garage in around 6 months so Im sure they will appreciate that!, Im thinking to have a garage both buying and selling cars but primarily a mechanic workshop, I know times are very tough in Spain but I think there must be a market for cheap mechanically sound cars


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

tigerpoeton said:


> Lol yeah thats what the vets said, I like how you put it 'Mature' lol, Yeah I think we will be all sorted with the dogs the only thing Im really concerned about is the spanish government asking why we are not 'Making an income' as to them they wont be seeing anything, Hopefully I am going to open a Garage in around 6 months so Im sure they will appreciate that!, Im thinking to have a garage both buying and selling cars but primarily a mechanic workshop, I know times are very tough in Spain but I think there must be a market for cheap mechanically sound cars


If you read a post from Tallulah in http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...-living-spain/47956-do-you-miss-anything.html, the reason why there are no garages selling cheap used cars in Spain is that the dealers are required to offer full 2-year warranty on every car they sell, including consumables like wiper blades - if they fail, they have to replace them free of charge. So it doesn't make sense to sell cheap cars if you are then clobbered with warranty claims for 2 years. I suppose you can take out a warranty insurance to cover major parts, but the law requires that the dealer puts right everything, including the sort of things that are usually excluded from mechanical warranty policy in UK.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

tigerpoeton said:


> Lol yeah thats what the vets said, I like how you put it 'Mature' lol, Yeah I think we will be all sorted with the dogs the only thing Im really concerned about is the spanish government asking why we are not 'Making an income' as to them they wont be seeing anything, Hopefully I am going to open a Garage in around 6 months so Im sure they will appreciate that!, Im thinking to have a garage both buying and selling cars but primarily a mechanic workshop, I know times are very tough in Spain but I think there must be a market for cheap mechanically sound cars


If you are resident in Spain for more than 183 days a year you MUST declare your income. Wherever it comes from or goes to. You must fill in a tax return form, bith here and in England.

I hope the garage idea works for you. Selling cheap second hand cars in Spain will be novel!! The second hand car market here is not anywhere near as cheap as in the UK! Theres alot of paperwork involved in transferring names etc and of course in Spain they can put debts on cars which are also transferred when buying a car - so do check all that out very carefully. Most people use a gestoria when buying a second hand car or go thru a main dealer. But I guess you'll learn about all that as you go along

Jo xxx


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## tigerpoeton (May 5, 2010)

WHAAAAT!!!! First of all 2 year Warranty even on disposables!? Thats absolutly madness!!!! Maybe I wont be doing that then!

Not that im intending to dodge the Spanish system but what happens if we dont declare our income? Please let me say I have no intention of breaking any spanish law at all but just out of interest?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

tigerpoeton said:


> WHAAAAT!!!! First of all 2 year Warranty even on disposables!? Thats absolutly madness!!!! Maybe I wont be doing that then!
> 
> Not that im intending to dodge the Spanish system but what happens if we dont declare our income? Please let me say I have no intention of breaking any spanish law at all but just out of interest?


I dont know, maybe someone else on here will know and tell you, but I'm pretty certain it wont be as "gentle" as the UK - Spain is a hard and unforgiving country if you upset it lol

Jo xxx


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

There is currently a thread on this forum on the mania people have for trying to flout the rules:

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...spain/47976-why-try-flout-rules-new-post.html

As JoJo says the Spanish authorities can come down quite heavily (when they have a mind to) on those who do, or try to, break the rules. A typical case in point is that of those people whose houses are now being demolished and all their investment with them.

Don't break the rules, or even try to, if you want to be welcomed here in Spain. A lot of us have worked really hard to establish our bona fides here as genuine honest people not connected with the rogues, cheats and thieves - DO NOT TRY TO SPOIL THAT! If you behave and are prepared to integrate properly , the Spanish will welcome you as one of their own since you will bring money and employment to the community, BUT, try to cheat and think yourself superior to them and you will always be treated as a foreigner and, if they have a mind to, they will drive you out and anything you have worked for will be lost and gone forever. Don't forget it is their country!


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

jojo said:


> I dont know, maybe someone else on here will know and tell you, but I'm pretty certain it wont be as "gentle" as the UK - Spain is a hard and unforgiving country if you upset it lol
> 
> Jo xxx


Well, if you don't declare any income then it's tax evasion.....hypothetically of course!!

If you've been declaring it back in the UK, say - and Hacienda find out about it (which these days is more than likely as they do communicate with HMRC, so beware) and you've pled ignorance on not doing an IRPF (Spanish tax return) due to ignorance of the rules and if they believe you, then the least would be back dated taxes, interest on that and a fine. Bearing in mind, that like in the UK, ignorance is no defence whatsoever under Spanish law.

Depending on the amounts - you may have heard of a famous Spanish lady singer, Isabel Pantoja, is now being tried (or just has been) for tax evasion and the prosecution were after 3 years in prison. This, for quite a bit less than half a million euros bank account movements, etc. She obviously was tried as a tax evader, because one assumes that somebody of that fame would be making yearly tax returns and paying a fair amount of tax. So forgetting to declare 400k euros is not really a defence - but it is worth noting the penalty, given that 3 years in prison is more than a lot of foul GBH/Sex attackers get in some parts of the world.


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## tigerpoeton (May 5, 2010)

I totally agree with the above two posts and I dont think any kind of tax evasion is worth doing its not acceptable here so why should it be in Spain!

I think for the first 2-3 months tax declartion would be pointless as our income wouldnt be very much and we are just setting up but once we are settled in then we will declare all, I am sure this would be acceptable.


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

Just a quick point - I spoke to my OH about this and he says that what comes to mind immediately is the classic pitfall everyone is aware of in the UK, where in the evening paper ads and the exchange & mart type publications, a person is supposed to state "dealer/trade" or "private seller" when advertising a car. The pitfall is that in reality it's a buyer beware scenario because many backstreet mechanics supplement their income in this way. 

This is where the process for selling a car in Spain is beneficial to second hand car buyers. The same mechanic in the UK would either have to have a serious amount of cash under the mattress, never be reported by a neighbour and always sort out problems with cars for fear of being reported - because the sale of the car has an impact on your tax return under "patrimonio" (assets) and there is a tax to pay, albeit small in your typical secondhand market, time you've had the car, etc etc. As you can imagine, once Trafico (who you must be registered with before the car is actually yours) get to see that this is the "nth" car that you've sold, the route from then to Hacienda is a very short one and you would very quickly be in very deep doo-doos. Also, unlike a private "sold as seen" sale, if following a major incident (not just accident, but crime also) the car is not properly registered, under some authority (normally police/ayuntamiento/permiso de circulacion, etc) then it is not a car that should be on the road and the last legal owner of said vehicle will in fact be the accountable owner for all said acts - hence the much discussed need to dispose of a car properly and when you buy a car, before it becomes yours as per above officialdom, ensure that none of the above history applies to it. 

In short,  bit of a nightmare, if not impossible, to go down the auctions, glue it together and quickly turn it around for a profit in Spain.


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## Guest (May 6, 2010)

Acceptable to you but effectively illegal


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

tigerpoeton said:


> I totally agree with the above two posts and I dont think any kind of tax evasion is worth doing its not acceptable here so why should it be in Spain!
> 
> I think for the first 2-3 months tax declartion would be pointless as our income wouldnt be very much and we are just setting up but once we are settled in then we will declare all, I am sure this would be acceptable.


Oh dear - some more bad news I'm afraid. 

Once you decide what you're going to do, you have to set yourself up as autonomo. Before you issue one invoice or charge one euro - from that moment on, you are contributing to health care and a pension. Minimum around 250 euros per month. If you have months of earning nothing, you can deregister and then register again pre-activity. As in this business, knowing when the next sale might be, is impossible, you would have to stay registered and even if you don't earn 1centimo the 250 euros contributions remain payable. 

This does seem rather harsh, I know, but do bear in mind that for your average serious self-employed person, 250 euros per month is actually very low and most pay a lot more to ensure they get a decent pension. 

Unfortunately, the only way to do what you suggest in Spain is via what is very famously termed as the black economy. I have yet to hear of any business dealing with the public that openly practices in this area of the market, for obvious reasons - not the least of which is massively high exposure to legal retribution not only from getting caught but also and perhaps more so, from someone wanting to practice some extortion. 

I personally would recommend strongly that anyone thinking of setting up similar to what is permissable in the UK under a certain amount of money and under certain conditions, checks with a qualified Gestor whether the same is possible in Spain, rather than just jump in. As previously mentioned, ignorance of the law is not a valid defence.


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## tigerpoeton (May 5, 2010)

Tallulah said:


> Just a quick point - I spoke to my OH about this and he says that what comes to mind immediately is the classic pitfall everyone is aware of in the UK, where in the evening paper ads and the exchange & mart type publications, a person is supposed to state "dealer/trade" or "private seller" when advertising a car. The pitfall is that in reality it's a buyer beware scenario because many backstreet mechanics supplement their income in this way.
> 
> This is where the process for selling a car in Spain is beneficial to second hand car buyers. The same mechanic in the UK would either have to have a serious amount of cash under the mattress, never be reported by a neighbour and always sort out problems with cars for fear of being reported - because the sale of the car has an impact on your tax return under "patrimonio" (assets) and there is a tax to pay, albeit small in your typical secondhand market, time you've had the car, etc etc. As you can imagine, once Trafico (who you must be registered with before the car is actually yours) get to see that this is the "nth" car that you've sold, the route from then to Hacienda is a very short one and you would very quickly be in very deep doo-doos. Also, unlike a private "sold as seen" sale, if following a major incident (not just accident, but crime also) the car is not properly registered, under some authority (normally police/ayuntamiento/permiso de circulacion, etc) then it is not a car that should be on the road and the last legal owner of said vehicle will in fact be the accountable owner for all said acts - hence the much discussed need to dispose of a car properly and when you buy a car, before it becomes yours as per above officialdom, ensure that none of the above history applies to it.
> 
> In short,  bit of a nightmare, if not impossible, to go down the auctions, glue it together and quickly turn it around for a profit in Spain.



I fully understand what your saying and realise even after this brief topic its something I probably wouldnt do now, As for glueing cars together I know a lot of people that do but I would never do that and have sold many cars here in the uk and even just for piece of mind I ensure every car is safe, How could I live if my bodge had killed children or anyone for that matter!

In respect of it being acceptable to me but illegal I'm led to believe to be self employed there is a 250E per month fee JUST to be s/e let alone the tax, For the first 2-3 months I dont even expect to make that so surely I shouldnt have to declare what im doing and if so do they really expect me to pay that?


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

tigerpoeton said:


> I fully understand what your saying and realise even after this brief topic its something I probably wouldnt do now, As for glueing cars together I know a lot of people that do but I would never do that and have sold many cars here in the uk and even just for piece of mind I ensure every car is safe, How could I live if my bodge had killed children or anyone for that matter!
> 
> In respect of it being acceptable to me but illegal I'm led to believe to be self employed there is a 250E per month fee JUST to be s/e let alone the tax, For the first 2-3 months I dont even expect to make that so surely I shouldnt have to declare what im doing and if so do they really expect me to pay that?


You have to think about it differently. The fact that you make very little, or in fact incur costs to start with in setting up - will all work in your favour when it comes to your tax declaration, in that it will be a negative result and therefore you will pay nothing. In fact, any money in a Spanish bank earning you interest where they withold 18% for the tax man would be returned to you as overall you will not have earnt the minimum to start paying tax. In fact, depending on where you go in Spain, you might find incentives for starting up a self-employed and who knows, there might even be grants to help you get going. That's the tax situation.

The 250euros per month has nothing to do with Hacienda - it is a payment to the Seguridad Social to cover medical for you, your wife/kids and even the inlaws if they're living with you. Plus - your pension. Given the cost of private health care - if there are four or five of you in the family unit, it's actually a pretty amazing deal and goes a long long way to explaining why there are so many autonomos in this country. Although I must admit, since the start of 2008 there's a hell of a lot less than there were due to crisis wind-ups.


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## tigerpoeton (May 5, 2010)

Tallulah said:


> You have to think about it differently. The fact that you make very little, or in fact incur costs to start with in setting up - will all work in your favour when it comes to your tax declaration, in that it will be a negative result and therefore you will pay nothing. In fact, any money in a Spanish bank earning you interest where they withold 18% for the tax man would be returned to you as overall you will not have earnt the minimum to start paying tax. In fact, depending on where you go in Spain, you might find incentives for starting up a self-employed and who knows, there might even be grants to help you get going. That's the tax situation.
> 
> The 250euros per month has nothing to do with Hacienda - it is a payment to the Seguridad Social to cover medical for you, your wife/kids and even the inlaws if they're living with you. Plus - your pension. Given the cost of private health care - if there are four or five of you in the family unit, it's actually a pretty amazing deal and goes a long long way to explaining why there are so many autonomos in this country. Although I must admit, since the start of 2008 there's a hell of a lot less than there were due to crisis wind-ups.


Ok it definitly sounds better now, Am I right in thinking from what your saying that the income tax is 18%?

The problem I have is whilst I am mobile I dont want to get involved in engine work and try to stick to servicing, brakes, suspension, exhaust etc etc as I know if I get involved in engine work its just going to be a headache, I realise everywhere is going to be different but does anyone know roughly the going rate for a full service these days?


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## Guest (May 6, 2010)

In brief, being self employed financially means:

Pay 250€ish a month Social Security
On every invoice add 16% IVA (VAT) and minus 15% IRPF (your tax rentention, you can pay a lower rate initially but you still have to pay that back sometime)
Pay an accountant roughly 90€ a month to do your IVA/Tax returns
If you deal with any companies outside Spain and invoice then you also need to be on the EU Traders list which normally means more paperwork/costs each month

Most mobile mechanics I know deal in cash, local garage I use charges about 40€ an hour


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

ShinyAndy said:


> In brief, being self employed financially means:
> 
> Pay 250€ish a month Social Security
> On every invoice add 16% IVA (VAT) and minus 15% IRPF (your tax rentention, you can pay a lower rate initially but you still have to pay that back sometime)
> ...


Hey Andy - I think your monthly assessment is correct for anyone dealing outside of Spain. The returns are indeed monthly - however, autonomos have quarterly returns and of course their end of year IRPF as any other individual. There are also the VAT quarterly returns. I think 90euros a month would be a bit steep for someone in the OPs line of work - particularly as the area of business would be fairly consistent without any complications in VAT rates, etc??

Not sure why he would minus 15% unless you mean the 15% a company would hold back before paying him his invoice?? 

To the OP : No, the 18% mentioned is bank interest rate witholding whether you're autonomo or not. Tax rates vary as in the UK and I believe minimum after allowances is currently 24%. Worth noting what you may have already read regarding tax avoidance being a national sport in Spain - there are many tax deductibles, especially if you have children.


Tallulah.x


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## Guest (May 6, 2010)

I'm autonomo and only work in Spain (although did have a few Gib companies that I've had to rethink due to the change in law) My IVA returns are quarterly, and chosen to do my tax return yearly (although I've never paid any tax due to the IRPF rentention each month). I've tried four different accountants now; two went bust, one caused a friend to owe 20K€ three years down the line and my current one although more expensive is straight as a die and I've no worries about anything. You are right though that the 15% IRPF rentention wouldn't be added if you were invoicing an individual


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

tigerpoeton said:


> I fully understand what your saying and realise even after this brief topic its something I probably wouldnt do now, As for glueing cars together I know a lot of people that do but I would never do that and have sold many cars here in the uk and even just for piece of mind I ensure every car is safe, How could I live if my bodge had killed children or anyone for that matter!
> 
> In respect of it being acceptable to me but illegal I'm led to believe to be self employed there is a 250E per month fee JUST to be s/e let alone the tax, For the first 2-3 months I dont even expect to make that so surely I shouldnt have to declare what im doing and if so do they really expect me to pay that?


Yes.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

ShinyAndy said:


> I'm autonomo and only work in Spain (although did have a few Gib companies that I've had to rethink due to the change in law) My IVA returns are quarterly, and chosen to do my tax return yearly (although I've never paid any tax due to the IRPF rentention each month). I've tried four different accountants now; two went bust, one caused a friend to owe 20K€ three years down the line and my current one although more expensive is straight as a die and I've no worries about anything. You are right though that the 15% IRPF rentention wouldn't be added if you were invoicing an individual


Another thing to remember is the accountant works for you & if he does not pay your tax to the hacienda , YOU are still personally liable for the tax & will have to take out a civil action to recover the money from the accountant.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

tigerpoeton said:


> Iv actually heard that quite a lot, I think its the uk that is really the strict one, We were debating weather to even get it all done but I guess if you dont then sods law says it will be you that gets stopped!


You should get it done as I believe it will soon be the requirement for all dogs in Spain and it's a good idea as it enables your dog to be traced if lost or stolen. The passport will record all the necessary injections etc.
And as I said, if your dog is classified as a perro peligroso you will most definitely need a passport.
It seems though that few Brits, and very few Spaniards who own these dogs have bothered to do that. But if something happens and the s*** hits the fan, you could be in big trouble.
You definitely need Public Liability insurance.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> There is currently a thread on this forum on the mania people have for trying to flout the rules:
> 
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...spain/47976-why-try-flout-rules-new-post.html
> 
> ...


Most of us don't need reminding or lecturing on how to behave, though. 
What do you think of the poster on another forum who makes a point of noting the numbers of UK plated cars and reporting them to the DVLA?
I know what most people, Spanish or British, would think.
There is a very small number -although one would be too many - of Brits here who cheat the benefit system, avoid paying taxes,commit serious crimes, drive uninsured and unroadworthy cars, get drunk and misbehave etc.etc.
These are the people your words should be aimed at.....but I fear they will not pay attention.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

The way the new car dealers circumvent the requirement to offer 2 years warranty is to sell you the manufacturers 3 year warranty. lol. 
All 2nd hand dealers I know just ignore the 2yr rule unless the person knows . Or sell you a warranty. lol.
Mileage clocking is like the UK in the 70's. I sold a car last year that I bought from new, fdsh, etc, kms were up a bit, saw it later for sale & it had 'lost' 32k !! 

If you take a car in p/ex for another , most decent dealers will transfer from your name into their own. So that's 4% of the government official value that they have to pay , then when they sell it there's another 4% to transfer it into the buyers name plus the costs of the gestoria.
I don't know any new car dealer here that re-sells anything that they take in part-ex.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> You should get it done as I believe it will soon be the requirement for all dogs in Spain and it's a good idea as it enables your dog to be traced if lost or stolen. The passport will record all the necessary injections etc.
> And as I said, if your dog is classified as a perro peligroso you will most definitely need a passport.
> It seems though that few Brits, and very few Spaniards who own these dogs have bothered to do that. But if something happens and the s*** hits the fan, you could be in big trouble.
> You definitely need Public Liability insurance.


When I came here 8 years ago the vet told me to contact DEFRA as even to move abroad I was exporting my dogs & had to comply with exportation requirements. When I contacted defra they told me that ,yes that was the case. Legally as I was emigrating the dogs were being exported ! They supplied me with the forms which I filled in exporting the dogs from myself in the UK to myself in Spain, which I had to return with the date on which I was leaving. These were then returned to my vet, 1 week before the leaving date, who stamped them & they were then valid for importation for 10 days. when I asked defra what happened if I was not there in 10 dys , the lady replied " nothing, no one will ever ask for them ".wtf!! Good job they didn't cost anything. This was in addition to all the 'passport for pets ' that I'd done , only to be told by defra that they were not necessary as the dogs were being exported. 

I drove here & no one asked for anything not even passports !


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I had to have a certificate to travel before I could bring my dogs here, altho I flew them over. But it had to be done within 48hrs of travelling and of course I had to have passports forthem etc..

As for your wife paying tax on her UK earnings and starting a business - HECK! After what everyone's written, I think I'd be feeling a little less keen to come to Spain now, if I were you LOLOL

Jo xxxx


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Tallulah said:


> Oh dear - some more bad news I'm afraid.
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, the only way to do what you suggest in Spain is via what is very famously termed as the black economy. I have yet to hear of any business dealing with the public that openly practices in this area of the market, for obvious reasons - not the least of which is massively high exposure to legal retribution not only from getting caught but also and perhaps more so, from someone wanting to practice some extortion.


Don't come down here then . They all do it ,autonomos, one through the books, 3 or 4 in their pocket. Even the big suppliers, cash sales rarely go through the books.
Most Spaniards I know who work in the black economy are in fact legal , pay tax, soc.sec; the absolute minimum they can get away with, it just doesn't go through the books. How do you tell when they are working whether they are declaring it or not ? Most don't flaunt it so a lifestyle exceeding income is not going to give them away & if they are on a job that's not going to be declared & for some reason there's a visit from officials ,it just gets declared ! There's nearly no way to prove anything, apart from following every autonomo ,everyday.
Don't forget that there's 54 billion in 500€ notes ( @ the last best estimate!)under the bed +all the smaller denominations.


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> Don't come down here then . They all do it ,autonomos, one through the books, 3 or 4 in their pocket. Even the big suppliers, cash sales rarely go through the books.
> Most Spaniards I know who work in the black economy are in fact legal , pay tax, soc.sec; the absolute minimum they can get away with, it just doesn't go through the books. How do you tell when they are working whether they are declaring it or not ? Most don't flaunt it so a lifestyle exceeding income is not going to give them away & if they are on a job that's not going to be declared & for some reason there's a visit from officials ,it just gets declared ! There's nearly no way to prove anything, apart from following every autonomo ,everyday.
> Don't forget that there's 54 billion in 500€ notes ( @ the last best estimate!)under the bed +all the smaller denominations.


Well, yes Gus but that is why I said "not openly practicing".

I think you may have misunderstood me. What you describe of course happens everywhere in Spain, hence the vast numbers involved. However, my reply to the OP wasn't to not do it under the umbrella of a business who are autonomos and are paying their contribution. It was to NOT do it as a matter fact ie not registered in any way whatsoever.

It is one thing to have someone's car come in and charge them "dinero B" - it's quite another to have someone's car come in when there's not even supposed to be a place for it to come into.


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## Guest (May 6, 2010)

In my experience cash jobs rarely go through the books, even in the UK, unless you're a cash only business.. you'd be a fool to do otherwise


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Its worldwide and not a new thing. I always remember when my father died, 25 years ago, going to the funeral Parlour with my mother. The rather sombre funeral director handed the price of the funeral to mother discreetly on a piece of paper. She took one look and said "I'm not paying that much, how much for cash???

Jo xxx"


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

ShinyAndy said:


> In my experience cash jobs rarely go through the books, even in the UK, unless you're a cash only business.. you'd be a fool to do otherwise


Completely agree. But there have to be books for it not to go through.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> Its worldwide and not a new thing. I always remember when my father died, 25 years ago, going to the funeral Parlour with my mother. The rather sombre funeral director handed the price of the funeral to mother discreetly on a piece of paper. She took one look and said "I'm not paying that much, how much for cash???
> 
> Jo xxx"


That's a great story, Jo. Did she get a discount?
My OH was scrupulous in ensuring that every transaction went through the books. People often asked how much less for cash but were politely told that we didn't operate in that way.
I don't think we lost any business, in fact I think we gained a reputation for honesty and straight dealing.
But this is another example of law-breaking which is so commonplace that it's seen as the norm nearly everywhere.


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## tigerpoeton (May 5, 2010)

Lol, You know other x-pats sites I have had people tell me that if avoid anything even 1 centimo all hells warriors will reign down on me, Im not stupid and even though Im young im not nieve enough to think that everyone in spain especially dealing with cash declares all of it! As mentioned before its not a British, Spanish or even european thing its a worldwide thing, Everyone knows cash is king!

Just for further advice my partner and myself lived in Portugal for 3 years and I spent 4 1/2 years living between UK and The Gambia west africa back and forth so despite my age I am probably more world aware than some of you 30+ year olds lol!

That being said I have never lived in Spain and I am looking for genuine facts and the REAL way of life not neccesarily what the law says as its not always the way things work and thats the same worldwide, Never mind the official ways I am asking you guys for the way it REALLY works in spain :eyebrows:


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

That's fair enough. I think you've been given enough information on how things should be done and indeed how things can be done, but also the consequences involved should you be caught out.

¡Allá tú! (It's up to you!). 

Best of luck though in however you decide to do things.


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## tigerpoeton (May 5, 2010)

Tallulah said:


> That's fair enough. I think you've been given enough information on how things should be done and indeed how things can be done, but also the consequences involved should you be caught out.
> 
> ¡Allá tú! (It's up to you!).
> 
> Best of luck though in however you decide to do things.


Thanks and thanks all for the advice, I know that knowing the downsides of any evasion is important so thanks all, I think this case is now closed


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

tigerpoeton said:


> Thanks and thanks all for the advice, I know that knowing the downsides of any evasion is important so thanks all, I think this case is now closed


If only it were....
But I fear not.


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## tigerpoeton (May 5, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> If only it were....
> But I fear not.



???? I meant the thread as it has been answered? Sorry I might be missing what your saying it is getting late and Iv been up since 4am lol!!!:ranger:


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

tigerpoeton said:


> ???? I meant the thread as it has been answered? Sorry I might be missing what your saying it is getting late and Iv been up since 4am lol!!!:ranger:


No, I meant that it is very unlikely that the topic is finished. Someone will pop up to put us right..
I was being ironic/sarcastic but obviously not very well!! I'm smoking and drinking, that's my excuse


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## tigerpoeton (May 5, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> No, I meant that it is very unlikely that the topic is finished. Someone will pop up to put us right..
> I was being ironic/sarcastic but obviously not very well!! I'm smoking and drinking, that's my excuse


Lol its my fault for not understanding a few hours ago I would have been on the ball with ya there 

I guess there will be someone else pop up who will it be :eyebrows:...................................................


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## jockm (Jun 23, 2009)

:clap2: I like this story!



jojo said:


> Its worldwide and not a new thing. I always remember when my father died, 25 years ago, going to the funeral Parlour with my mother. The rather sombre funeral director handed the price of the funeral to mother discreetly on a piece of paper. She took one look and said "I'm not paying that much, how much for cash???
> 
> Jo xxx"


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

Joppa said:


> including consumables like wiper blades


I have my doubts about that. If that was the case then tyres, filters, oil, bulbs, brake pads, discs and other consumables would have to be included. It would, of course be good for the consumer but a total nonsense in every other sense. There is an EU directive (is there anything that they don't want to regulate) that governs this.


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

Although if that dealer is right then we should all buy used cars and then drive through potholes at a 130km ph and then claim for shocks and suspension.


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

JBODEN said:


> Although if that dealer is right then we should all buy used cars and then drive through potholes at a 130km ph and then claim for shocks and suspension.


The Law states that new cars will carry a 2 year warrenty.

Used vehicles sold by a professional in the business of selling cars will carry the warrenty, but so long as it is clearly stated in the sales contract, it can be reduced to one year. It will not be less than one year.

Commercial constraints and image damage limitation will prevent the downgrading of the warrenty by serious players such as "Ford/Citroen/Renault etc Warrented quality vehicles" - but clearly there is a market where the one year guarantee and the knowledge that you are buying from such a dealer type applies. These latter cars are not typically the ones in mind when "Second hand cars are MUCH more expensive in Spain" type claims are made. If one is about to buy a "Ocasion de calidad" or even "Kilometro zero" used vehicle and the dealer wants to include the clause in the sales contract to include a one year warrenty, be ware!

As for driving your used car down a hill a claiming a new one, the terms "fit for purpose" and "normal use" do, I think, apply under Spanish law also. As does "Component failure v. Ware and tare". If the wiper blade rubbers start to peal off within the specified period, then the dealer would indeed have to replace them. If on the other hand, a shock absorber is blowing oil due to seals being blown by continuous driving at 80 Mph over pot holes, it might be rather obvious and these would NOT be replaced. So yes, they do take a look before just replacing.

Google provides many references regarding warrenty for "Vehiculos de ocasion" so that doubt can be verified, or otherwise.

Xose


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## tigerpoeton (May 5, 2010)

Xose said:


> The Law states that new cars will carry a 2 year warrenty.
> 
> Used vehicles sold by a professional in the business of selling cars will carry the warrenty, but so long as it is clearly stated in the sales contract, it can be reduced to one year. It will not be less than one year.
> 
> ...



Being a mechanic and this is an issue that would be raised soon enough, How can you seriously prove that a popped shock absorber is due to general deteriation or faulty parts OR because it has been used beyond reason I.E potholling at 80km, You say the difference would be obvious but I can tell you it wouldnt, If the shock absorber is wet it is near impossible to tell how exactly that has been done unless there is further damage around that wheel arch.

As for wiper blades they do detiorate easily and should be changed every 12 months anyway so to offer a 2 year warranty is unfair on the seller, The system SHOULD work like the uk with all NEW car dealerships offering their own warranty of a minimum 3 years (Kia 7 Years!!!!), After that period a dealer would usually offer 3-12 months and that does NOT include consumables because they are exactly that, Consumables.


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

tigerpoeton said:


> ... As for wiper blades they do detiorate easily and should be changed every 12 months anyway


Good point! Blade manufacturers make this point (replace after 12m because UV light affects the composite). 
In the UK, where the weather is generally closer to an African rain forest blades would probably need to be replaced twice a year.


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## tigerpoeton (May 5, 2010)

JBODEN said:


> Good point! Blade manufacturers make this point (replace after 12m because UV light affects the composite).
> In the UK, where the weather is generally closer to an African rain forest blades would probably need to be replaced twice a year.


Well thats right with the rain and severly harsh conditions the UK can be subject too I find I need to replace mine every 9-12 months, Also what people dont realise is when you wash your car if you dont rinse off the suds on the wipers (Which a lot forget or miss) that also will work on drying out the rubber, How any dealer can possibly be expected to replace that is ridiculous!!!!


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Here where I am due to the dust they could do with being replaced weekly. I have to clean the dust from my screen with a hose or w/can before I go out everytime in spring / summer !


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

tigerpoeton said:


> Being a mechanic and this is an issue that would be raised soon enough, How can you seriously prove that a popped shock absorber is due to general deteriation or faulty parts OR because it has been used beyond reason I.E potholling at 80km, You say the difference would be obvious but I can tell you it wouldnt, If the shock absorber is wet it is near impossible to tell how exactly that has been done unless there is further damage around that wheel arch.
> 
> As for wiper blades they do detiorate easily and should be changed every 12 months anyway so to offer a 2 year warranty is unfair on the seller, The system SHOULD work like the uk with all NEW car dealerships offering their own warranty of a minimum 3 years (Kia 7 Years!!!!), After that period a dealer would usually offer 3-12 months and that does NOT include consumables because they are exactly that, Consumables.


What can I say? Perhaps it should be like the UK. Perhaps BMW and Mercedes should also offer 7 years warrenty. Perhaps they feel they don't have to in order to sell their cars.

As for Should and could etc., like I said, anyone looking at setting up in any business requires rather more than "Should", I would suggest. However, each to their own. Perhaps one could setup a garage where they would offer a sold as seen, as a professional in the business, or a 3 month limited warrenty only and perhaps the authorities like the consumer office wouldn't give a monkey's... or perhaps not... who knows!

Here's an add for quality used BMW's.....

_Al adquirir tu BMW Premium Selection no te llevas sólo un gran automóvil, sino que además obtienes unas condiciones inmejorables:

* 24 meses de garantía
* Kilometraje garantizado
* Revisión Gratuita a los 2.000 kms
* Certificación del vehículo
* Asistencia en carretera
* Posibilidad de cambio del vehículo
* Prueba de producto_

You'll note the 24 month bit, as though it was their giving you something. A bit like Vodafone suddenly anouncing a big drop on international roaming charges, just before the law made them drop the costs. Clever these marketting guys!


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## tigerpoeton (May 5, 2010)

Xose said:


> What can I say? Perhaps it should be like the UK. Perhaps BMW and Mercedes should also offer 7 years warrenty. Perhaps they feel they don't have to in order to sell their cars.
> 
> As for Should and could etc., like I said, anyone looking at setting up in any business requires rather more than "Should", I would suggest. However, each to their own. Perhaps one could setup a garage where they would offer a sold as seen, as a professional in the business, or a 3 month limited warrenty only and perhaps the authorities like the consumer office wouldn't give a monkey's... or perhaps not... who knows!
> 
> ...



Well I think your 100% right, You cant run a business on the idea that this and that 'should' be the rules, It just seems unfair on the dealer (Probably the first time I have ever said that!!)

So would I right be right in thinking that most cars in Spain are 10 years old and newer?, Do Private sellers have to offer any kind of warranty?


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

Xose said:


> ... offer 7 years warrenty.


KIA is trying to grab market share. Anyway everyone knows that the car is full of midget Koreans pedalling like mad so there are no mechanical parts that could go wrong. :focus:


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## tigerpoeton (May 5, 2010)

JBODEN said:


> KIA is trying to grab market share. Anyway everyone knows that the car is full of midget Koreans pedalling like mad so there are no mechanical parts that could go wrong. :focus:


It probably would be cheaper for KIA to put in little midgets than use expensive alloy and steel :eyebrows:, Still a very brave move from them and to be honest when working on them you can see they are actually very well made, A little of topic but well done KIA!!!


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## jockm (Jun 23, 2009)

tigerpoeton said:


> Being a mechanic and this is an issue that would be raised soon enough, How can you seriously prove that a popped shock absorber is due to general deteriation or faulty parts OR because it has been used beyond reason I.E potholling at 80km, You say the difference would be obvious but I can tell you it wouldnt, If the shock absorber is wet it is near impossible to tell how exactly that has been done unless there is further damage around that wheel arch.


I think JBODEN wants to do 130 clicks, would that make a difference?


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

jockm said:


> I think JBODEN wants to do 130 clicks, would that make a difference?


130 kph = 80 mph (more on less)


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## tigerpoeton (May 5, 2010)

jockm said:


> I think JBODEN wants to do 130 clicks, would that make a difference?


I wouldnt reccomend the much fun sport of 'potholling' over 30mph unless you drive a japanese 4x4


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

tigerpoeton said:


> I wouldnt reccomend the much fun sport of 'potholling' over 30mph unless you drive a japanese 4x4


Nowadays, driving a Jap 4x4 with the cost of fuel being what it is surely you'd have to be stark raving bonkers; potholing over 30mph? you'd have to be....

OK, point made!


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## tigerpoeton (May 5, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> Nowadays, driving a Jap 4x4 with the cost of fuel being what it is surely you'd have to be stark raving bonkers; potholing over 30mph? you'd have to be....
> 
> OK, point made!


Well I think the Diesel Japanese 4x4's are far superior to range/land rover and obviously much more suited to the job than the school run x5's and cayenne's, You are right though with fuel going the way it is we are all doomed to Fiat punto's are cruddy corsa's!!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

We find a Citroen Berlingo does the trick, economical, takes 5 passengers AND their luggage PLUS it is small enough to get around our narrow roads and corners. I would have still liked to have my Volvo estate but it was juicy and would have been too big for here. The Berlingo does most of what the Volvo did (as far as work is concerned), true not as comfortable or roomy, nor as fast but much more economical.

Yes, we have taken the Berlingo to UK and back, no problems.

All the Chelsea tractor types are too big and uneconomical, and mostly appear to be driven around as a mobile ego-booster


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## tigerpoeton (May 5, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> We find a Citroen Berlingo does the trick, economical, takes 5 passengers AND their luggage PLUS it is small enough to get around our narrow roads and corners. I would have still liked to have my Volvo estate but it was juicy and would have been too big for here. The Berlingo does most of what the Volvo did (as far as work is concerned), true not as comfortable or roomy, nor as fast but much more economical.
> 
> Yes, we have taken the Berlingo to UK and back, no problems.


The only issues I have with those is reliabilty as the french arent well known for well made cars! That being said it sounds like you have a good one and you seem happy with it which is good,

The other thing is they look like disabled persons cars and here in the uk that is mostly all they are used for so thats probably why I have that impression but like you say for economy and space sounds ideal


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

tigerpoeton said:


> Well I think the Diesel Japanese 4x4's are far superior to range/land rover and obviously much more suited to the job than the school run x5's and cayenne's, You are right though with fuel going the way it is we are all doomed to Fiat punto's are cruddy corsa's!!


Not me. I'll stick to Mercedes, BMW or Land/Range Rover whatever the cost of fuel. Economical in the long run and stylish, fun driving. Although having been involved in the 'motor trade' I know very little about the technical side of motor vehicles -we paid people to do that! -so my choice of vehicle is admittedly purely superficial.
As for describing 4x4s as 'Chelsea tractors'...well, yes, that applies if you live in Chelsea and drive a Cayenne, RangeRover etc.
But where we live we can shorten every single journey by around 10 km by crossing a rio which has been full since early December by using the Discovery.
We have crossed ithe rio when other vehicles have been stuck and have offered assistance to pull them out!
I don't find the Disco that uneconomical either, especially considering we often fill up with diesel in Gibraltar. The RangeRover we had in the UK (we lived in a rural area, not Chelsea) was a different animal altogether, though. Very thirsty.


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