# Cycle of Violence



## cscscs007 (Jan 8, 2011)

I am sure by now many of you have heard of the tragic news in regards to the senseless killing of the Alcalde of Ayutla in Jalisco, and of his bodyguard. About a month prior the head of the police was murdered here also. 

I am perplexed as to why this continues to happen all over in Mexico (this has been going on for years) and the Govt. can't seem to stop this from happening. Last year my father-in-law's brother who is the alcalde in a Michoacan town had to beg the Govt. to send in personnel to deal with criminal activity and to help the police force in the town, and was told there was enough help already.

For me to see this go on, and to see the half-hearted efforts of the Govt. in assisting in dealing with these problems it is quite concerning. I can see why those who have grown up in these communities don't want to talk to officials from the Govt. They are afraid to stick their necks out because they have seen the lack of support given to those who did in the past and the results.

I did not know the Alcalde of Ayutla personally, but I have talked to many who did, and all of them had kind words as to who he was and how he personally helped the poor and needy in the community. His funeral procession to the panteon of people walking lasted for well over 30 minutes as many many people attended.

It really upsets me that for such a beautiful country, and so many of the wonderful people I interact with everyday, that situations like this just continue to occur over and over. It makes a person wonder how long this can continue before conditions improve for the better.


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## lhpdiver (Jul 30, 2014)

In Cuernavaca it seems to be the opposite. Last year this time there was a lot of concern about crime. This year people are actually commenting about the lack of crime. For us personally - the only impact of crime in the year and a half we have been here is; more razor wire circling the community, no more taxi's in the community etc. But - if the sun isn't out neither are we. But when the sun is out (roughly 7AM) we are out doing our daily morning walk. The worst thing that happens to us is when we pass someone walking and say 'buenos dias' and they ignore us.

My wife has this theory that the crime rate is tied to the employment rate.


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## lhpdiver (Jul 30, 2014)

This link was emailed to me recently

http://www.inegi.org.mx/inegi/conte...municados/Especiales/2014/Julio/comunica3.pdf


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## cscscs007 (Jan 8, 2011)

Here is a news article that describes this man very well. 

Mexican mayor who welcomed Pierce County emergency supplies fatally shot | Crime | The News Tribune


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

" It makes a person wonder how long this can continue before conditions improve for the better." 

007, What makes you think conditions will improve? With no monies for infrastructure or peacekeepers 
present conditions can not change, I have seen towns where raw sewage is dumped into the ocean because the town could not pay their electric bill to run the pumps. How much do you pay in property taxes? Mine went up from 280 Pesos to 310 Pesos a year, I pay more for a good bottle of Tequila,LOL


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## cscscs007 (Jan 8, 2011)

History repeats itself over and over. People can only take so much whether it is from the government or from persecution from others. When the common person gets fed up they take it upon themselves to eradicate the problem and it seems to be heading in that direction with Dr. Mireles and other communities that have armed themselves to eradicate the suffering they endured.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

cscscs007 said:


> History repeats itself over and over. People can only take so much whether it is from the government or from persecution from others. When the common person gets fed up they take it upon themselves to eradicate the problem and it seems to be heading in that direction with Dr. Mireles and other communities that have armed themselves to eradicate the suffering they endured.


The only thing that worries me about the auto-defensas is that vigilante groups like that often go awry and end up being no better or, often, worse than the problem they start out to solve. Many of the worst dictators in the world started out as liberators, Castro, Mao, Stalin, the world is rife with examples.


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

cscscs007 said:


> History repeats itself over and over. People can only take so much whether it is from the government or from persecution from others. When the common person gets fed up they take it upon themselves to eradicate the problem and it seems to be heading in that direction with Dr. Mireles and other communities that have armed themselves to eradicate the suffering they endured.


Do you pay property taxes in Mexico?????


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

TundraGreen said:


> The only thing that worries me about the auto-defensas is that vigilante groups like that often go awry and end up being no better or, often, worse than the problem they start out to solve. Many of the worst dictators in the world started out as liberators, Castro, Mao, Stalin, the world is rife with examples.



True, and we can mention Baptista, Marcos,Pinochet,Shah of Iran and Noriega to name a few more...


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

cscscs007 said:


> . It makes a person wonder how long this can continue before conditions improve for the better.


We will not live that long. Mexico was 71 years under the PRI, and after 12 years of Pan, have returned to the PRI, and the PRI is no better than it ever was. I think the majority of Mexicans have accepted the life that the government gives them. The PRI put Dr. M. in prison, what lesson do you think that is teaching? Look at the quality of "public" education. See the movie "Presunto Culpable". Ask yourself, "what is the most important thing in the life of Mexicans? (football).


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

coondawg said:


> Ask yourself, "what is the most important thing in the life of Mexicans? (football).


I think the most important thing for most Mexicans is their family.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

chicois8 said:


> True, and we can mention Baptista, Marcos,Pinochet,Shah of Iran and Noriega to name a few more...


But those ones did not started as liberators


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## terrybahena (Oct 3, 2011)

chicois8 said:


> Do you pay property taxes in Mexico?????


Yes if you own land. We pay about 2000 pesos a year for our place in Guerrero.


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

coondawg said:


> Ask yourself, "what is the most important thing in the life of Mexicans? (football).



Don't forget Novelas ............


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

chicois8 said:


> Don't forget Novelas ............


I find that offensive
Soccer and novelas?
Generalizing does never work, Mexicans are much more worried by so many things

How long have you lived in Mexico? Do you speak very good Spanish? As much as to really get the grasp out of Mexicans society?


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

GARYJ65 said:


> But those ones did not started as liberators


True. Some of them were puppets, until they got too big for their britches and the puppetmaster took them out. It seems to be happening elsewhere today, as it always has. However, it seems somewhat different in Mexico; or are we disillusioned?


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

GARYJ65 said:


> But those ones did not started as liberators



Your correct Gary, they were all puppets of the United States.....

I am sorry you found my Novela remark offensive but have you ever sat in a restaurant trying to catch the waitress's eye when she has hers glued to the TV watching a Novela? LOL



terrybahena, That's what I am talking about,you pay $150 a year in taxes but I was addressing that question to 007.........


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

chicois8 said:


> Your correct Gary, they were all puppets of the United States.....
> 
> I am sorry you found my Novela remark offensive but have you ever sat in a restaurant trying to catch the waitress's eye when she has hers glued to the TV watching a Novela? LOL
> 
> ...


And have you ever tried to catch anyone's attention when they transmit the Super Bowl or NASCAR?


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

chicois8 said:


> I am sorry you found my Novela remark offensive but have you ever sat in a restaurant trying to catch the waitress's eye when she has hers glued to the TV watching a Novela? LOL


I found your remark a bit offensive too, and I'm not Mexican, at least not yet. Your comment implies that all Mexicans are more concerned with watching telenovelas than doing their jobs well.


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## FoxIslander (Jun 10, 2014)

...or duck dynasty, or honey-boo-boo for that matter.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

FoxIslander said:


> ...or duck dynasty, or honey-boo-boo for that matter.


I guess I've been away so long from the States (going on almost 7 years now) that I have no idea what you're talking about .


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

FoxIslander said:


> ...or duck dynasty, or honey-boo-boo for that matter.


I have to make a comment here; many, and I mean MANY TV shows I think are made for subnormal people, super subnormal I would say.

Most of the time I cannot find anything decent to watch, Netflix Is a better option then.
Back to topic now, sorry


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

Isla Verde said:


> Your comment implies that all Mexicans are more concerned with watching telenovelas than doing their jobs well.


Did I say "all Mexicans" or did I say waitresses?


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

chicois8 said:


> Did I say "all Mexicans" or did I say waitresses?


I think your implication is clear, but, anyway, I don't think it's fair to put down all waitresses in this way. At least, I haven't found this to be true at the restaurants I patronize in my neighborhood.


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

I understand the reaction of feeling "offended" by ascribing soccer and telenovelas as things "that are the most important in the lives of Mexicans", but I took the comment as tongue in cheek humour. One of the problems with posting on a forum is the difficulty of conveying subtleties such as tongue-in-cheekiness vs. earnest opinion, or passion about a cause vs. indignation (as on a recent thread about coffee that segued into the merits of breast feeding). 

I almost never watch TV, but I will confess that there have been a few times in the past when I've gotten into a Mexican telenovela. One of the nice things about the telenovelas is they have an ending, and then years will pass before I watch another. I never got into a NOB soap which go on for decades... Some people like a martini to relax and unwind when they get home from work, and once in a while I've let myself indulge in the mindlessness of the dramatic, predictable, sentimental storytelling of the telenovelas, where in the end the good guys triumph over evil, albeit with a considerable measure of calumny and unjust suffering along the way. Since the real world rarely works itself out so neatly, telenovelas and Hollywood let us escape reality for a bit. Healthier than lots of other potential escapes from reality. (Yes, yes, a nice hike or bike ride would be healthier, but I'm just saying...)

That being said, I agree with Gary that novelas aren't what is most important in the lives of most Mexicans, at least not those I know and love. I have so often been impressed by just how aware and concerned many ordinary Mexicans are about lots of issues, and the wisdom to be found in people who have lived hard-scrabble lives but have not themselves become hardened. They may not be out in the streets protesting (although sometimes they are), but their analysis is often quite informed and even prescient - I guess they've seen history repeat itself too many times. In my experience, most Mexicans aren't going to shove their opinions down your throat, or even be prepared to share their views openly. If they don't know much about you, who you are, where you're from, what your opinions are, etc. they are more likely to not say much, perhaps giving the impression that fútbol and telenovelas are what matter most to them. But most Mexicans I know are deeply concerned about the violence _trastornando_ (wreaking havoc with) their beloved Mexico. If there were any easy, straightforward solution, obviously it would have been implemented by now. And reading the headlines, Mexico is by no means in the most dire straits globally. I think one of the things all of these current crises of violence around the world have in common is the impact they have on ordinary people. Those who have the least influence over the situation still pay the price, when really what most people want is to be able to work, support their families, build a better future for their kids and hopefully have some spare time for fútbol and novelas.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Sorry, on my post I left something out and am unable to "edit" it. It should have read : (football). 

I agree with I.V. that , for most Mexicans, Family is the most important thing in their lives. 

Some men, however, seem to me to embrace the "Macho Man" persona and live their lives as if they were "God's gift" to women (here I am speaking of both married and single men). Sure, this happens in every country, but more so, IMO, in Latin countries, where often women are simply treated as objects to be used as the men prefer to use them. But, I have found this true in other Latin America countries, not just Mexico. The sad part, to me, is that many women see taking advantage of this "Macho Culture" is their destiny.


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

coondawg said:


> Some men, however, seem to me to embrace the "Macho Man" persona and live their lives as if they were "God's gift" to women (here I am speaking of both married and single men). Sure, this happens in every country, but more so, IMO, in Latin countries, where often women are simply treated as objects to be used as the men prefer to use them. But, I have found this true in other Latin America countries, not just Mexico. The sad part, to me, is that many women see taking advantage of this "Macho Culture" is their destiny.


I know you qualified your statement with "some men" but still, enough with the stereotypes. My Mexican husband does nearly all of the cooking, more than half of the cleaning, and we are both actively raising our children. And he doesn't do these things just because he's married to someone from NOB. His oldest son is 30 yrs old, and my husband hand-washed his diapers in the pila in Mexico when he was a baby. He also fixes the cars and does household repairs and home construction/renovation. I manage the finances and the household "administration".

I know many men from many Latin American countries who are similarly respectful, loving, active participants in all aspects of family life.

Yes, I've known men who fit the stereotypical macho type as well, and their long-suffering wives, but the ones that come to mind are from both sides of the border.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

ojosazules11 said:


> …
> enough with the stereotypes
> …


I agree 100%.


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## zentraveler (Aug 11, 2014)

I agree also. I cut my cable over a year ago with no regrets. If you are watching mainstream news your are being programed with what they want you hear. Far better it is to find your own sources. Vet them out for sure. Most mainstream content is for what I call (sheeple) people who would rather have others to do their thinking. Is it any wonder the world is in such a state as it is?


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

ojosazules11 said:


> I know you qualified your statement with "some men" but still, enough with the stereotypes. My Mexican husband does nearly all of the cooking, more than half of the cleaning, and we are both actively raising our children. And he doesn't do these things just because he's married to someone from NOB. His oldest son is 30 yrs old, and my husband hand-washed his diapers in the pila in Mexico when he was a baby. He also fixes the cars and does household repairs and home construction/renovation. I manage the finances and the household "administration".
> 
> I know many men from many Latin American countries who are similarly respectful, loving, active participants in all aspects of family life.
> 
> Yes, I've known men who fit the stereotypical macho type as well, and their long-suffering wives, but the ones that come to mind are from both sides of the border.


I'm glad your husband is one of the "good guys", ojos. My rather negative of opinion of many Mexican men comes from dating them, and I could write a book, let me tell you, but I won't!


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

My wife has 7 brothers, and 1 (a civil engineer) definitely would fit in the same category with your hubby. Unfortunately, the other 6 ( didn't finish secondary) would fit into my "Macho Man" group. (and they are nice guys otherwise; they don't try to hit on us). I see how the nieces and nephews of my wife are treated, and they knew at a young age what was expected of boys and of girls. I am so sad to see one niece that is just 17, with a boyfriend that is 26(with earrings in ears and nose and an eye piercing and tattoos) and he has a 4 years old little girl. She told us not that long ago that her father has told her and her sister (15) they were just a burden on the family. They have a 10 year old brother that "hits" them and is never disciplined. I opened my mouth about him 5 years ago to the mother (sister) and she told me things are different in Mexico, and that my suggestions were not welcome here. No more. I am getting too far off, sorry.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Sadly, that's very common in Latin countries

One of the roots comes from ignorance, here, there, everywhere there is ignorance, we may expect to find Machismo

Ignorant ******** do not behave like gentlemen either


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

machismo, wife abuse is a problem throughout all cultures and at all socio economic levels.
I moved from an appartment in the Marina in San Francisco back in the 80´s because I could not stand the wife beating going on in the next house.
I lived in an appartment and one of my wondows was just accross the window of a very expensive and large house in that district. Everyday the wife would get beaten for one reason or another and the police would come and I do not know what would happen but it started again, it was just awful..so it is not happening only in Latin countries, it is a worldwide problem.


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## pazenel (Feb 2, 2012)

GARYJ65 said:


> I find that offensive
> Soccer and novelas?
> Generalizing does never work, Mexicans are much more worried by so many things
> 
> How long have you lived in Mexico? Do you speak very good Spanish? As much as to really get the grasp out of Mexicans society?


In a way she is right, I am from Mexico living in USA. I know that most mexican people are very hard working and faithful , but the telenovelas I beleive that they are a way to"forget" for a while, the hard situation that many of them face.

I know professional people in mexico that they are hooked to their telenovelas.

It is just a mexican custom, for many.


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## wonderphil (Sep 7, 2013)

coondawg said:


> My wife has 7 brothers, and 1 (a civil engineer) definitely would fit in the same category with your hubby. Unfortunately, the other 6 ( didn't finish secondary) would fit into my "Macho Man" group. (and they are nice guys otherwise; they don't try to hit on us). I see how the nieces and nephews of my wife are treated, and they knew at a young age what was expected of boys and of girls. I am so sad to see one niece that is just 17, with a boyfriend that is 26(with earrings in ears and nose and an eye piercing and tattoos) and he has a 4 years old little girl. She told us not that long ago that her father has told her and her sister (15) they were just a burden on the family. They have a 10 year old brother that "hits" them and is never disciplined. I opened my mouth about him 5 years ago to the mother (sister) and she told me things are different in Mexico, and that my suggestions were not welcome here. No more. I am getting too far off, sorry.


I have read the posts that followed your post and and am kind of disappointed. The following posts sort blow it off saying that it is normal in other countries. I do not like that. There is no excuse for having a abusive attire toward females and even more so even to having that attitude toward family members.

So these ignorant people who have such an attitude need to be educated not tolerated.


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

wonderphil said:


> I have read the posts that followed your post and and am kind of disappointed. The following posts sort blow it off saying that it is normal in other countries. I do not like that. There is no excuse for having a abusive attire toward females and even more so even to having that attitude toward family members.
> 
> So these ignorant people who have such an attitude need to be educated not tolerated.


I interpreted the comments differently than you. Spousal abuse, woman abuse, child abuse, domestic violence - whatever form it takes - is wrong and I agree with not excusing it as a "cultural" difference. The comments (at least Citlali's) state correctly that it is not LIMITED to Mexican culture - it is a real problem which crosses cultural and economic boundaries. Probably if you are wealthy in a large house separated from your neighbour's house it is easier to cover the violence up than if you live in a flimsy shack cheek by jowl with the neighbours. 

I think adequate legal and societal consequences are necessary to deter those whose first reaction to conflict is to hit, punch or shove. I have spoken to men and women from other parts of the world accustomed to using physical force as part of domestic conflicts and for disciplining children. When they come to Canada and realize they can get in big trouble for these behaviours, they often find they can change them. 

I have known Mexican and Central American men who are abusive to their wives/girlfriends (and Canadian men and American men who do the same). They are the exceptions in my experience. The vast majority of Latin American men I have known as close friends or family members would never ever hit a woman and consider that doing so is dishonourable. There is even a song by a Mexican singer Reyli Barba called "Pégale a la Pared" ("Hit the Wall" - instead of hitting a woman if you are that angry or out of control.) Maybe I'll post it on La Chaterrería one of these days. 

I think most people on this forum agree that violence in the home should never be "tolerated". I think most Mexicans would agree as well, at least those I know and love. Yes, I've heard the "She provoked him" excuse, but more often I've heard (directed toward the abusive man) "Es un descarado." "Es un cobarde." "Es un patán." (He's shameless, a coward, a thug.") Sadly, this doesn't seem to be the attitude in coondawg's wife's family. 

(And while statistically the vast majority of domestic violence is by men against women, I also know of cases where the woman us physically abusive towards the man, including in Mexico. That's never OK, either.) I absolutely agree with your statement about the importance of education, and I also think there need to be legal and societal consequences for domestic violence.


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