# Are US expats also insane about politics?



## ptrichmondmike

Man, I can't even turn on the TV anymore -- so much political vitriol coming from all sides, it is just sickening and has shaken my faith in our democracy. What's the climate like down there? Are gringos as polarized as all the nutcases up here insisting that civilization will crumble if they don't get everythng they want?


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## chicois8

In Mexico at this time most all folks know the winner of the presidential election will be the candidate from the PRI party.........


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## ptrichmondmike

chicois8 said:


> In Mexico at this time most all folks know the winner of the presidential election will be the candidate from the PRI party.........


Yes, well...I was referring to expats and US politics.

I have no opinions on Mexican politics (that I'd care to share) and I understand that political involvement is a no-no for expats.


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## johnmex

I ignore US politics.


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## FHBOY

(Still not a Mexican resident but an opinion):

I suppose there are political people no matter where you go/live. The question is: is it a part of their daily lives and does it cause a polarizing rift [US politics, that is]? From what I have observed in Mexico and here on the Forum, it does not seem to figure in as much. Maybe it is the old adage learned from our parents, do not discuss religion or politics...maybe it is because there is so much more to living than politics and those who choose to leave do not want that any longer.

Let me add another discussion point. While there are political discussions going on, I would bet that they are more respectful than what we are bombarded with in the media in the US, and on political blogs and news blogs. Maybe that comes from the separation from the immediate consequences, altho no US citizen living abroad is immune to what goes on in the US government.

By the time we reach Mexico to begin our new chapter, there will be a new President either Obama or Romney, new proportions in the Legislature (probably) and the changing of traditional values/assessments/etc in the US. While it will interest me, it not something that will be a part of my daily life, the media bombardment. I am sure I will discuss politics with the people I meet in Mexico, but I will not be affected by 75% of it, it is more of a respectful academic discussion (excepting Social Security, Medicare etc - being of a "certain age"). Will I need to take sides? No...whatever they do in Washington will be viewed at a distance.

Now...if I learn enough Spanish - there is a whole treasure trove of Mexican politics to get into...hopefully I'll learn enough Spanish before I get to the "Z" in Alzheimers !


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## joelpb

In Mexico when the party changes so do all the jobs. When they talk about control
that what is here.


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## Guest

I exited the US and the idiotic politicians there a long time ago. I don't participate, don't vote, and DON'T COMPLAIN about any of it. I do get kind of bent out of shape whenever somebody starts talking about "red and blue" or "conservatives and liberals" or related political crapola here (not on this forum, but here in MX). It's "exit, stage right" the minute I hear any of that. Who gives a rat's Axx??? Politicians are all cut from the same bolt of cloth.

Here's something I cannot figure out though: I have a Canadian friend who must send me 6 or 8 e-mails a day, and all involve either Obama slams or some conspiracy theory. Before Obama, it was nothing but Bush slams. This friend is Canadian, has never lived in the US, has no ties to the US, doesn't invest in the US, but parrots whatever he's reading/watching, which I'm guessing is exclusively Fox News and the Conspiracy channel with that knucklehead ex-wrestler/state governor. I keep telling him to skip the politics and send me the bikini girls, but my message doesn't seem to sink in.


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## conklinwh

Not sure about other expat communities but in SMA it is said that the Democratic Club needs a stadium to meet while the Republican Club only requires a phone booth.


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## joaquinx

I seems that everyone in my high school class has turned Tea Party. I keep getting political emails from them. For this leftist, it is difficult to answer them all.


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## mickisue1

joaquinx said:


> I seems that everyone in my high school class has turned Tea Party. I keep getting political emails from them. For this leftist, it is difficult to answer them all.


MY brother in law is part of that movement.

When I start worrying about how to deal with him, I remember that he's a good dad, and loves his sons. And that I only have to avoid discussing politics with him. I don't have to live with him.


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## Isla Verde

joaquinx said:


> I seems that everyone in my high school class has turned Tea Party. I keep getting political emails from them. For this leftist, it is difficult to answer them all.


My condolences.  I would suggest letting them know that you'd rather not discuss politics with them on line, and if that doesn't work, just ignore the emails that get your goat.


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## FHBOY

joaquinx said:


> I seems that everyone in my high school class has turned Tea Party. I keep getting political emails from them. For this leftist, it is difficult to answer them all.


Right on! All tower to the steeple!


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## FHBOY

mickisue1 said:


> MY brother in law is part of that movement.
> 
> When I start worrying about how to deal with him, I remember that he's a good dad, and loves his sons. And that I only have to avoid discussing politics with him. I don't have to live with him.


I have the same problem...except it is my older son - a Bush/Coulter Republican - we have not talked politics in 10 years. My mother is convinced we dropped him on his head when he was a baby and this is what happened. He is a good man, works hard, earns a decent living, has his Masters...but the one topic we never talk about...politics - he is the one Neo-Con in a family of left leaning moderates/liberals.


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## sparks

I don't get US TV so don't have to listen to the details. Between Yahoo financial and maybe an hour of two of Internet TV a week I get the headlines at most. 

It only matters after it happens ... and Obama will happen


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## Isla Verde

sparks said:


> I don't get US TV so don't have to listen to the details. Between Yahoo financial and maybe an hour of two of Internet TV a week I get the headlines at most.
> 
> It only matters after it happens ... and Obama will happen


Yes, but as an expat US citizen, you can vote and help to make it happen. I just sent off my application for voter registration and an absentee ballot.


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## mickisue1

Isla Verde said:


> Yes, but as an expat US citizen, you can vote and help to make it happen. I just sent off my application for voter registration and an absentee ballot.


Well done. My daughter gets the information (from me) about the people running for our city council, so she can know who the heck she's voting for, from Italy. I look up the candidates, and send her their websites and their Candidate Statements.

She probably knows more about the council candidates than most of the people who've lived here for their entire lives.

Of course, being a political junky, engaged to a political junky, she also knows more about Italian politics than many Italians.


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## vantexan

It's interesting, judging by the postings here and on Mexico Connect, that the American expat population appears to be majority liberal. I've also followed forums for Honduras and Nicaragua and expats there seem majority conservative. Really surprised by Nicaragua, but then Daniel Ortega himself has become super wealthy.


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## FHBOY

vantexan said:


> It's interesting, judging by the postings here and on Mexico Connect, that the American expat population appears to be majority liberal. I've also followed forums for Honduras and Nicaragua and expats there seem majority conservative. Really surprised by Nicaragua, but then Daniel Ortega himself has become super wealthy.


That is an interesting observation, so it leads me to wonder why. Hmmm, something to think about.


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## pappabee

Over the past few years US politics have become a swamp full of this and that and the stuff that bites. 

The last presidential candidate that I voted for was Eugene V. Debbs. I kept writing his name in because I didn't want not to vote and it was the only way I could show that I didn't think much of any of the candidates. 

The truly important candidates are those running for local office (not State but City and County). First of all they sometimes listen to what one person has to say and secondly they are the most visible and therefore the easiest to force into making a statement of intent. 

Love them or hate them Darryl Issa and Dennis Kusch both started out saying that they were working for the people and stayed with that. I know them both personally. Dennis and I used to verbally fight on some public meetings and Darryl was in my scout troop.

And I still say that the only guy worthy of my vote is EV Debbs (he died in 1926).

Oh, if you think this is the ramblings of a old nut, just think about the subject and how much more nuts it could get.:clap2:


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## joaquinx

pappabee said:


> Oh, if you think this is the ramblings of a old nut, just think about the subject and how much more nuts it could get.:clap2:


In a strange way, I feel that I understand you.


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## FHBOY

pappabee said:


> Over the past few years US politics have become a swamp full of this and that and the stuff that bites.
> 
> The last presidential candidate that I voted for was Eugene V. Debbs.
> And I still say that the only guy worthy of my vote is EV Debbs (he died in 1926).
> 
> Oh, if you think this is the ramblings of a old nut, just think about the subject and how much more nuts it could get.:clap2:


It's a little known fact Pappabee that Eugene V. Debs is the only historical figure who has a radio station named for him: WEVD in New York City - started by old radicals in the early days of radio. (was the Yiddish voice on the radio from when I can remember it) - from the Cliff Clavin Book of Little Known Facts.


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## pappabee

FHBOY said:


> It's a little known fact Pappabee that Eugene V. Debs is the only historical figure who has a radio station named for him: WEVD in New York City - started by old radicals in the early days of radio. (was the Yiddish voice on the radio from when I can remember it) - from the Cliff Clavin Book of Little Known Facts.


I guess since he was the Socialist Labor canidate, it'd be happy about it being a Yiddish station at one time.


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## ptrichmondmike

Muchas gracias to all...it sounds like once I wash off all the loathesomeness after crossiing the border, I will be able to regain some mental peace and quiet about US politics. I live in an extremely "progressive" region and have always been primarily just a wishy-washy liberal -- pretty leftist on issues like social justice, and rather conservative about education, financial waste and some other things. Once you could be that in America and have rational discussions, but it's gotten much harder in the past 10-15 years.

In my pre-retirement web peregrinations around Latin America, I have noticed that gringos in the Central American countries (except Guatemala) do seem a largely conservative crew. That might also be true in Yucatan, which seems to attract a lot of folks from Florida and the southern states who can live with the climate.

I love the idea of writing in Eugene Debs! Perhaps I'll try Henry Wallace, or stay safe with Abe Lincoln.


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## circle110

Most of the expats I meet here in Mexico do tend to be on the liberal end of the spectrum, some of them extremely so.

I lived and worked as a volunteer in Nicaragua for 4 months in 2007. I worked in Granada, which is probably the main expat area in the country and I saw many expats and met some of them.

The majority of them had retired there because of the very cheap cost of living. At that time (2007) one could live a reasonably comfortable life in Granada for $600 per month, so if your SS check was that much or more, you were set. Many of those expats had only that much income and not much more but they were getting by just fine. A lot of them were from more economically depressed rural or semi-rural areas of the US; just the kind of areas that tend to be (ironically) very conservative. They just kept their political orientation after expatriating.

Many of those Nica expats blamed "those damned liberals" for ruining the US and putting them into a retirement with financial dire straits but a case could be made looking at it from the liberal point of view that their poorness was partly a result of conservative fiscal policies.

The reality, I think, is that it's all a lot more complicated than simply Republicans versus Democrats. I tend to stay as much out of the fray as I can.


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## Isla Verde

circle110 said:


> I lived and worked as a volunteer in Nicaragua for 4 months in 2007. I worked in Granada, which is probably the main expat area in the country and I saw many expats and met some of them.
> 
> The majority of them had retired there because of the very cheap cost of living. At that time (2007) one could live a reasonably comfortable life in Granada for $600 per month, so if your SS check was that much or more, you were set. Many of those expats had only that much income and not much more but they were getting by just fine. A lot of them were from more economically depressed rural or semi-rural areas of the US; just the kind of areas that tend to be (ironically) very conservative. They just kept their political orientation after expatriating.
> 
> Many of those Nica expats blamed "those damned liberals" for ruining the US and putting them into a retirement with financial dire straits but a case could be made looking at it from the liberal point of view that their poorness was partly a result of conservative fiscal policies.


I wonder how these conservative expats feel about living in a country governed by the Sandinistas.


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## circle110

You know, I never asked because I didn't want to go there with them.

Actually, at that time I arrived Ortega had just been re-elected a month previously after 17 years out of office so no one knew what it was going to be like this time around.


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## FHBOY

ptrichmondmike said:


> Muchas gracias to all...it sounds like once I wash off all the loathesomeness after crossiing the border, I will be able to regain some mental peace and quiet about US politics. /QUOTE]
> 
> If you are that far from retirement, it is something to look forward to.
> 
> I have found in my rookie month as a retiree in the USA that one of the joys is being, finally, able to do (or don't do) what you want. When we are away from the USA, one of those don't do's will be US politics, not that I am active in it any longer.
> 
> It is just that I will feel a lot better when I get away from this confrontation life style - as politics seems to permeate the way we relate to each other, out of proportion to it's importance.


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## vantexan

Isla Verde said:


> I wonder how these conservative expats feel about living in a country governed by the Sandinistas.


Granada was always the conservative city in Nicaragua. It's twin, Leon, was the liberal bastion. The northern cities of Estelli, Matagalpa, and Jinotega were Sandinista strongholds during the civil war that suffered the most. 

Last I heard Ortega is worth over $400 million now. And he has changed his views quite a bit. Nicaragua is interesting in that it's both the poorest and safest country in Central America. Next door Honduras is the murder capital of the world and the other countries aren't a whole lot better. Not so Nicaragua. But it's also pretty hot, although the northern cities have some elevation and reasonable climates. They're a long way from Mexico's infrastructure however.


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## jasavak

Isla Verde said:


> I wonder how these conservative expats feel about living in a country governed by the Sandinistas.



I don't think it really matters . Either way it's a powerful oligarchy that ends up imposing their ideas of whose head will be bashed in . The party members take the spoils and leave the scraps for the useful pets who gave them the power . In Vietnam they now use a form of government known as "Red Capitalism " The party leaders are now billionaires and the peasants get a bowl of rice .


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## joelpb

Sounds a little like Mexico.


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## joaquinx

jasavak said:


> I don't think it really matters . Either way it's a powerful oligarchy that ends up imposing their ideas of whose head will be bashed in . The party members take the spoils and leave the scraps for the useful pets who gave them the power . In Vietnam they now use a form of government known as "Red Capitalism " The party leaders are now billionaires and the peasants get a bowl of rice .


It seems that the governments of the far right and those of the far left employ the same type of government control. Dictatorships.


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## ptrichmondmike

jasavak said:


> I don't think it really matters . Either way it's a powerful oligarchy that ends up imposing their ideas of whose head will be bashed in . The party members take the spoils and leave the scraps for the useful pets who gave them the power . In Vietnam they now use a form of government known as "Red Capitalism " The party leaders are now billionaires and the peasants get a bowl of rice .


Power does seem to corrupt, regardless of ideology/political/economic system


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## jasavak

joaquinx said:


> It seems that the governments of the far right and those of the far left employ the same type of government control. Dictatorships.


Most "Dictatorships"  have a group of leaders who pull the strings and most of the large scale atrocities in recent history have come from left wing governments such as Hitler , Stalin , Chairman Mao , Ho Chi Minh and Kim Jong Il .


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## joaquinx

Hitler was right wing fascist. So were many of the military governments of Latin America.


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## ptrichmondmike

joaquinx said:


> Hitler was right wing fascist. So were many of the military governments of Latin America.


And to a greater or lesser extent, Italy, Japan, Franco's Spain, Salazar's Portugal, pre-WWII regimes in Hungary, Romania, WWII Croatia, etc. Vargas in Brazil and Peron in Argentina were elected governments with definite fascist overtones.

And how do you categorize authoritarian Islamic states like Saudi Arabia and Iran? Syria? Gaddafi's Libya? Zimbabwe? 

Labels, labels....


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## joaquinx

I would also add that the government of Ho Chi Minh was not responsible for many of the atrocities as most were done by the government of the south and by the US.


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## ptrichmondmike

joaquinx said:


> I would also add that the government of Ho Chi Minh was not responsible for many of the atrocities as most were done by the government of the south and by the US.


I did think of that also, but didn't want to get into any arguments with the other guy, who I assume is on the conservative side of things.:boxing:


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## jasavak

joaquinx said:


> Hitler was right wing fascist. So were many of the military governments of Latin America.



Here is a list of some of Hitler’s left wing policies .. 

1. Price controls on goods and services 

2. Removal of religious powers (Jews , Catholics , Lutherans , Christians)

3. National controls on housing including subsidies 

4. Blame the rich (Jews) for societies inequalities.

5. Peoples Automobile (VW)

6. Government programs to make people “equal” .

7. No assemblies and protests unless they are approved by government

8. Special favoritisms based on race and ethnicity. 

9. Censorship of media 

10. Central planned government that controlled allocation of resources.
11. Redistribution of property that benefited the establishment party members. 
12. Forced abortions, sterilizations, medical experiments and other atrocities by government done 
“ for the common good “ . 

Some people think he was right wing because he fought the communists , but he fought them because he wanted their resources for his plan of world domination .


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## jasavak

ptrichmondmike said:


> And to a greater or lesser extent, Italy, Japan, Franco's Spain, Salazar's Portugal, pre-WWII regimes in Hungary, Romania, WWII Croatia, etc. Vargas in Brazil and Peron in Argentina were elected governments with definite fascist overtones.
> 
> And how do you categorize authoritarian Islamic states like Saudi Arabia and Iran? Syria? Gaddafi's Libya? Zimbabwe?
> 
> Labels, labels....



I usually think of Pinochet of Chile or Batista of Cuba . Regardless , all of these right wing dictators are small potatoes compared to Left wing Fascist Adolf Hitler , Stalin and the others I mentioned.


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## joelpb

For the most part that sounds like the democratic party of today.


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## jasavak

lol , Just change VW to GM


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## joaquinx

joelpb, Your reasoning must come from Fox News which is like getting news from the town drunk.


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## jasavak

joaquinx said:


> joelpb, Your reasoning must come from Fox News which is like getting news from the town drunk.


Fox news and all other non approved news sources should be banned immediately. 

All news sources that don’t agree with the 0bama administration or the Democratic Party establishment need to be screened for approval by government officials.


Questionable opinions expressed on all non news sources should also be edited unless those opinions favor our administration.


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## pappabee

jasavak said:


> Here is a list of some of Hitler’s left wing policies ..
> 
> 1. Price controls on goods and services
> 
> 2. Removal of religious powers (Jews , Catholics , Lutherans , Christians)
> 
> 3. National controls on housing including subsidies
> 
> 4. Blame the rich (Jews) for societies inequalities.
> 
> 5. Peoples Automobile (VW)
> 
> 6. Government programs to make people “equal” .
> 
> 7. No assemblies and protests unless they are approved by government
> 
> 8. Special favoritisms based on race and ethnicity.
> 
> 9. Censorship of media
> 
> 10. Central planned government that controlled allocation of resources.
> 11. Redistribution of property that benefited the establishment party members.
> 12. Forced abortions, sterilizations, medical experiments and other atrocities by government done
> “ for the common good “ .
> 
> Some people think he was right wing because he fought the communists , but he fought them because he wanted their resources for his plan of world domination .


Hitler fought the communists because they were the only party (power) that was large enough and organized enough to bother his idea of National Socialism. AND, you all forgot the most important things that he did to help the people. 

1--he built the Autobahn (of course that was to be able to move heavy equipment around the country).

2--he put tens of thousands to work. Building arms to fight his wars. 

3-- He also clothed millions of men, women and children. (That was in military uniforms so that he had someone to send out to get killed)

4--he also succeeded in gathering up a lot of wealth and placed it in one spot. (Goering’s warehouses). 

5--he advanced science by allowing Mengela to continue with his work.

6--he helped with the world over population by removing 8.5 million people. 6 million of them were Jews. And, that's not counting the people who were killing fighting the battles.


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## pappabee

jasavak said:


> Fox news and all other non approved news sources should be banned immediately.
> 
> All news sources that don’t agree with the 0bama administration or the Democratic Party establishment need to be screened for approval by government officials.
> 
> 
> Questionable opinions expressed on all non news sources should also be edited unless those opinions favor our administration.


Interesting enough seeing that you live outside of Dallas Texas where the only approved news is that issued by a Bush or Perry.


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## Isla Verde

joelpb said:


> For the most part that sounds like the democratic party of today.


:confused2:


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## jasavak

joaquinx said:


> I would also add that the government of Ho Chi Minh was not responsible for many of the atrocities as most were done by the government of the south and by the US.


 Interesting twist . How many innocent civilians were intentionally murdered in cold blood by The Communist Party of Vietnam that was originally lead by Ho Chi Minh ?

Millions and millions .


How many were murdered by U.S. soldiers and the defending South ? 


Most of the atrocities happened after the Americans left .


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## jasavak

pappabee said:


> Interesting enough seeing that you live outside of Dallas Texas where the only approved news is that issued by a Bush or Perry.



For the record I was raised in California and recently moved to Texas . Odd that Texas is producing 50 % of the jobs of the entire country and California , well


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## FHBOY

Can we just stop this!?!? What has all this Left Wing/Right Wing, Hitler was communist BS have to do with the intent of this Forum and even this thread?!?!?

We were asking a question, "Are US Expats in Mexico political?" Right?? No one was asking for a debate on what that was, just did it exist. 

Why has this debate shown up here? What does it have to do with the topic? Why has it gotten so ill-mannered and uncivil? 

Sorry folks, but if the idea was to prompt a Fox News/MSNBC type debate...count me out of it! Take your political/ideological (ideo-illlogical) fight somewhere else - not here!

 *THIS IS NOT THE AIM OR REASON FOR A FORUM FOR EXPATS!*


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## mickisue1

FHBOY said:


> Can we just stop this!?!? What has all this Left Wing/Right Wing, Hitler was communist BS have to do with the intent of this Forum and even this thread?!?!?
> 
> We were asking a question, "Are US Expats in Mexico political?" Right?? No one was asking for a debate on what that was, just did it exist.
> 
> Why has this debate shown up here? What does it have to do with the topic? Why has it gotten so ill-mannered and uncivil?
> 
> Sorry folks, but if the idea was to prompt a Fox News/MSNBC type debate...count me out of it! Take your political/ideological (ideo-illlogical) fight somewhere else - not here!
> 
> *THIS IS NOT THE AIM OR REASON FOR A FORUM FOR EXPATS!*


I certainly have my beliefs, and they are, so much as I possibly can get there, based on fact, not what I've been fed by ANY news source, right or left.

But FHBoy is right: the purpose of this forum is to discuss the ins and out of living as expats in MX, not to rehash the divisive rhetoric that is tearing the US apart.

Could we stop, please?


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## pappabee

FHBOY said:


> Can we just stop this!?!? What has all this Left Wing/Right Wing, Hitler was communist BS have to do with the intent of this Forum and even this thread?!?!?
> 
> We were asking a question, "Are US Expats in Mexico political?" Right?? No one was asking for a debate on what that was, just did it exist.
> 
> Why has this debate shown up here? What does it have to do with the topic? Why has it gotten so ill-mannered and uncivil?
> 
> Sorry folks, but if the idea was to prompt a Fox News/MSNBC type debate...count me out of it! Take your political/ideological (ideo-illlogical) fight somewhere else - not here!
> 
> *THIS IS NOT THE AIM OR REASON FOR A FORUM FOR EXPATS!*


I agree and I'm sorry for joining the feeding pool. Can we get someone to lock this thread so that it's over.


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## jasavak

I really don't see any problem with an open discussion . I respect your opinions and we had some interesting theories and I thank you all for that . I guess the answer to the question : Are US expats also insane about politics? Is yes .


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## FHBOY

jasavak said:


> I really don't see any problem with an open discussion . I respect your opinions and we had some interesting theories and I thank you all for that . I guess the answer to the question : Are US expats also insane about politics? Is yes .


Jas: what I am saying is that there is a time and a place for open discussion, and what happened to this tread was not it, not that it was wrong, but it was just not for here and now.


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## ptrichmondmike

FHBOY said:


> Can we just stop this!?!? What has all this Left Wing/Right Wing, Hitler was communist BS have to do with the intent of this Forum and even this thread?!?!?
> 
> We were asking a question, "Are US Expats in Mexico political?" Right?? No one was asking for a debate on what that was, just did it exist.
> 
> Why has this debate shown up here? What does it have to do with the topic? Why has it gotten so ill-mannered and uncivil?
> 
> Sorry folks, but if the idea was to prompt a Fox News/MSNBC type debate...count me out of it! Take your political/ideological (ideo-illlogical) fight somewhere else - not here!
> 
> *THIS IS NOT THE AIM OR REASON FOR A FORUM FOR EXPATS!*


Thank you. This is why I chose not to argue about Ho Chi Minh earlier up the thread. And why I indicated that labeling is pointless.

And this is why I can't wait to leave the country.


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## jasavak

The posted topic is : Are US expats also insane about politics ? What would anyone expect from this type of question ? Should have been banned from the beginning ?

Where does the banning and censorship begin or end ? I imagine the moderators dictate this . If I were a moderator I would see no need for censoring this thread . If people don't like the discussion they can ignore it and move on to a different thread .


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## Isla Verde

ptrichmondmike said:


> Thank you. This is why I chose not to argue about Ho Chi Minh earlier up the thread. And why I indicated that labeling is pointless.
> 
> And this is why I can't wait to leave the country.


Do you think that Mexicans don't argue about politics like people do in most countries?


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## jasavak

Isla Verde said:


> Do you think that Mexicans don't argue about politics like people do in most countries?



My Father in Law (rip) was a big supporter of the PAN in Guanajuato in the mid 1980's . they thought he was crazy to fight the PRI establishment party that held power for more than 60 years . They elected PAN Vicente Fox from Gto a year after he died .


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## mickisue1

jasavak said:


> The posted topic is : Are US expats also insane about politics ? What would anyone expect from this type of question ? Should have been banned from the beginning ?
> 
> Where does the banning and censorship begin or end ? I imagine the moderators dictate this . If I were a moderator I would see no need for censoring this thread . If people don't like the discussion they can ignore it and move on to a different thread .


This is a private forum. Moderators are generally chosen for their evenhandedness, and their ability to put the good of the forum above the bruised feelings of the members.

Feelings are easily mended. A broken forum, not so much.

Anytime one joins a private forum, s/he should assume that the banning and censorship that is agreed to, upon joining, will be used judiciously, but WILL be used.


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## ptrichmondmike

Isla Verde said:


> Do you think that Mexicans don't argue about politics like people do in most countries?


I know they do -- but their politics aren't my concern and, as I said, I believe expat non-citizens are supposed to keep out of the fray. I may have opinions about Mexican politics, but I'm not going to vocalize them to any Mexican except among trusted friends. What upsets me about US politics is how hateful and barbaric the tone has become, and how painful that is for those of us who remember a much more civil time when DISAGREEMENT didn't mean ENMITY. Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill agreed about almost nothing -- but they worked together and passed legislation. Obama can't get anything done with a House completely dug in to thwart his every move, and a Senate that requires at least 60 votes to get anything passed at all. And how and when did that 60-vote thing ever happen?


----------



## pcrial

*non-political*



mickisue1 said:


> MY brother in law is part of that movement.
> 
> When I start worrying about how to deal with him, I remember that he's a good dad, and loves his sons. And that I only have to avoid discussing politics with him. I don't have to live with him.


I'm 62 and have never voted in an election. I subscribe to the theory that the low-tech method to determine when a politician is lying is "when their lips move." Not overly interested in lies, so plan to stay out of it. Before coming to Australia, I spent a lot of time in Mexico. Saw plenty of Mexican politics over a 12 year period. Love living there, but not the politics. Took my Australian wife and her two adult daughters on a tour of Mexco in 2011. We drove down HWY 57 to Leon, Guanajuato, then stayed in San Miguel de Allende, then drove back through Eagle Pass, Texas.

Australia has a law requiring citizens to vote. Guess I won't be becoming a citizen. Winning a popular vote, doesn't certify anything except which politician is more popular. The elected officials then proceed to spend their term doing stuff, the next group will begin to undo post next election. Because of the constant political shifting of direction noting is ever accomplished, just jerking the laws around based on the direction of the political wind. Instead of being insane about politics, I beleive I'm a realist.

Cheers,


----------



## pcrial

jasavak said:


> I have family in Leon . What did you think of it ? Don't hold back . No need for political correctness .


I love Leon. I took my Australian wife and her two adult daughters to the leather district, where they bought purses, shoes, and one daughter bought boots. I took them to El Rincon Gaucho, one of my favorite restaurants. I didn't get to take them to Brasil 2000 and others I'm quite fond of.

In Guanajuato, we drove through since one of my wife's adult daughters is handicapped, and can't manage the stairs. I drove through the old silver mines, and just the things you can see from a car (little though that is).

We ate at a number of restaurants where I knew the chef, so we got some extra nice food for an experience they will not soon forget.

Cheers


----------



## jasavak

pcrial said:


> I love Leon. I took my Australian wife and her two adult daughters to the leather district, where they bought purses, shoes, and one daughter bought boots. I took them to El Rincon Gaucho, one of my favorite restaurants. I didn't get to take them to Brasil 2000 and others I'm quite fond of.
> 
> In Guanajuato, we drove through since one of my wife's adult daughters is handicapped, and can't manage the stairs. I drove through the old silver mines, and just the things you can see from a car (little though that is).
> 
> We ate at a number of restaurants where I knew the chef, so we got some extra nice food for an experience they will not soon forget.
> 
> Cheers


 Is the Rincon Gaucho an Argentinian style steak house ? It seems wife went there once for a meeting years ago . If you like grilled meats al estilo Mexicano try Borregos in the North part of the city . They have great Mexican grilled meats and Mariachi on weekends . Carne cecina , bistek a su gusto and they serve a arranchera with a tender nopal underneath served with ranchero beans. Of course the usual pico de gallo .


----------



## xabiaxica

I've tidied up the thread - please don't get personal, everyone is entitled to their opinion, as long as forum rules regarding inflammatory posting, racism etc., are followed

there is an ignore facility in USER CP if you want to use it, and a report button at the top of each post if you belive a post breaks a rule


----------



## mickisue1

xabiachica said:


> I've tidied up the thread - please don't get personal, everyone is entitled to their opinion, as long as forum rules regarding inflammatory posting, racism etc., are followed
> 
> there is an ignore facility in USER CP if you want to use it, and a report button at the top of each post if you belive a post breaks a rule


Thank you. For the information and the clean up.


----------



## jasavak

xabiachica said:


> I've tidied up the thread - please don't get personal, everyone is entitled to their opinion, as long as forum rules regarding inflammatory posting, racism etc., are followed
> 
> there is an ignore facility in USER CP if you want to use it, and a report button at the top of each post if you belive a post breaks a rule



Thank you for the information and removing the personal attacks . 


Getting back to topic of the original question. Judging from the responses, it seems that not only are the expats insane about politics, but more than average Americans living in the U.S. I never would have guessed that we would be so concerned about our former patria .


----------



## xabiaxica

jasavak said:


> Thank you for the information and removing the personal attacks .
> 
> 
> Getting back to topic of the original question. Judging from the responses, it seems that not only are the expats insane about politics, but more than average Americans living in the U.S. I never would have guessed that we would be so concerned about our former patria .


not just expat Americans - take a look at our Spain forum - UK politics is often a hot topic amongst the expat Brits!!






just a note - I removed racist comments as well as the one personal attack


----------



## jasavak

I'll take a look at that forum . 



note - It's a shame people judge by skin color . Our family is dark skinned and we can't change that .


----------



## xabiaxica

jasavak said:


> I'll take a look at that forum .
> 
> 
> 
> note - It's a shame people judge by skin color . Our family is dark skinned and we can't change that .


I doubt anyone here cares - & if you hadn't mentioned it, no-one would know, either - none were aimed at you, so I don't quite get your point :confused2:


and it has nothing to do with politics :focus:


----------



## pcrial

jasavak said:


> Is the Rincon Gaucho an Argentinian style steak house ? It seems wife went there once for a meeting years ago . If you like grilled meats al estilo Mexicano try Borregos in the North part of the city . They have great Mexican grilled meats and Mariachi on weekends . Carne cecina , bistek a su gusto and they serve a arranchera with a tender nopal underneath served with ranchero beans. Of course the usual pico de gallo .


Ah yes, Rincon Gaucho is the Argentinian Steak House. We had churrasco de avestruz, I particularly like the way they do it. Tuvimos cuitillocoche, la primera experiencia de mi esposa.

I think I have eaten at Borregos and I love arrachera served with the cactus. My wife and her adult daughter had their first molcajete with tender meats and cactus, in Monclova on the way back to Eagle Pass, Texas.

Cheers,


----------



## jasavak

pcrial said:


> Ah yes, Rincon Gaucho is the Argentinian Steak House. We had churrasco de avestruz, I particularly like the way they do it. Tuvimos cuitillocoche, la primera experiencia de mi esposa.
> 
> I think I have eaten at Borregos and I love arrachera served with the cactus. My wife and her adult daughter had their first molcajete with tender meats and cactus, in Monclova on the way back to Eagle Pass, Texas.
> 
> Cheers,


Yes , the molcajete is one of their specialties . My wife and I also tried huitlacoche for the first time last year . She is from Mexico and never heard of it . 

Avestruz ? I didn't know they served that . I remember it was the big trend to show off your Avestruz boots and belts back in the 90's . Of course Leon was a big part of that since it is the capital del calzado y articulos de piel. 

I really like the smaller towns better , but Leon does have quite a lot to offer . The population has tripled since I got married there in 1988 . I remember driving my little VW Rabbit to Guanajuato for our honeymoon and the fog was so thick , I couldn't see more than 10 feet .


----------



## toniold

I think the problem now is a bigger one, one that you see really no discourse anymore just people talking at other people. Conversations are lost and people are more interested in just saying their piece. One good thing about living in Mexico is that people do actually take time to talk to each other.


----------



## jasavak

toniold said:


> I think the problem now is a bigger one, one that you see really no discourse anymore just people talking at other people. Conversations are lost and people are more interested in just saying their piece. One good thing about living in Mexico is that people do actually take time to talk to each other.



The last few years have been difficult for many people in the states because of the high unemployment and devastated economy. To make matters worse, we have much more class envy and racial tension than ever. People are consistently deemed racist for not agreeing with the administration. We have class envy between rich, poor, South, North , attacks on religious people , and attacks on free speech if it doesn’t follow party lines . The establishment also created an imaginary “War on Women” . 
I guess this type of power comes when we basically have a one party system. We should do away with political parties so people start voting for the candidate instead of blind partisanship.


----------



## jasavak

When you said " still talk to each other " It reminded me of when there were no phones in the neighborhood in Leon , GTO back in the late 80's and early 90's . Friends , neighbors and relatives would stop by nearly every day and sit a spell , have lunch or even play cards . Nowadays , the phone rings and people hang up in 30 seconds .


----------



## joaquinx

Where I grew up in the forties and fifties, every house had a front porch. When the weather was good, people would sit on swinging benches and chairs and talk to the neighbors in adjacent houses. Wave to those across the street and to those passing along the sidewalks. Sometimes we would be invited to a neighbors porch for a cola or such. You knew your neighbors and would talk to them. Then TV came and everyone went inside. Now, the build houses without porches nor sidewalks.


----------



## mickisue1

jasavak said:


> The last few years have been difficult for many people in the states because of the high unemployment and devastated economy. To make matters worse, we have much more class envy and racial tension than ever. People are consistently deemed racist for not agreeing with the administration. We have class envy between rich, poor, South, North , attacks on religious people , and attacks on free speech if it doesn’t follow party lines . The establishment also created an imaginary “War on Women” .
> I guess this type of power comes when we basically have a one party system. We should do away with political parties so people start voting for the candidate instead of blind partisanship.


When someone posts something like the above, a conundrum is created. Do you ignore it, and the numerous opinions unbacked by data, and let it stand as though it's fact, or do you comment on it, and risk being seen as attacking the messenger, not the message.

The majority of the very wealthy pay a smaller percentage of their income in taxes, when all taxes are considered: income, VAT, sales and property; this is a fact and commenting on it and its negative impact on the economy and the nation is not class envy. Nor, if the facts were looked at dispassionately, would it be a cause of tension, but of a will to modulate those effects by a better system of taxation.

It is also true that racism exists, and flourishes, in many hearts in the US. It's not disagreement with the administration that leads to charges of racism. One can disagree with another with respect. When racially charged words are used, when caricatures of the President of the United States exaggerate his African features in a negative way, when the direction of the commentary from specific commentators is nearly always towards their belief that it's the race of the President, not his need to lead the country, that causes him to make decisions that the commentator dislikes, when these happen, then the charge of racism is valid.

I said, much earlier in this thread, that I am related by marriage to a very, very reactionary man. So, we don't discuss politics. I'd rather let his two younger sons deal with it, frankly. He knows my beliefs, and my husband's. 

We talk about the things we have in common: our love for, and pride in the accomplishments of our children, our gardens, the sad state of MN professional sports, outside the Lynx. 

I strongly believe that every person in every country in the world has a right to his or her own opinion, and they furthermore have the right to express it. 

What they do not have, however, is the right to express it without consequence, or being called on the inaccuracy of their depiction of the world as they see it.


----------



## joelpb

I have to disagree with you sue. The president is a racist and divider. It is always some
other group that causes all the problems not his group which is comprised of some good
people and then a lot of preverts and criminals.


----------



## joaquinx

joelpb said:


> I have to disagree with you sue. The president is a racist and divider. It is always some
> other group that causes all the problems not his group which is comprised of some good
> people and then a lot of preverts and criminals.


POTUS is not a Republican and we do not get our news, thus our opinions, from town drunks.


----------



## Isla Verde

joelpb said:


> I have to disagree with you sue. The president is a racist and divider. It is always some
> other group that causes all the problems not his group which is comprised of some good
> people and then a lot of preverts and criminals.


Pray, tell me sir, what is a "prevert", and what group are you referring to that is full of them along with an untold number of criminals?


----------



## jasavak

mickisue1 said:


> The majority of the very wealthy pay a smaller percentage of their income in taxes, when all taxes are considered: income, VAT, sales and property; this is a fact and commenting on it and its negative impact on the economy and the nation is not class envy. Nor, if the facts were looked at dispassionately, would it be a cause of tension, but of a will to modulate those effects by a better system of taxation.
> 
> 
> it.


If you are referring to Warren Buffet types and capital gains, yes. However, this is a misguided distraction for the following reasons. 

1. We tax income, not wealth. Therefore a married couple earning $250,000 may have little or no assets because they already pay around 50% in tax . The remaining $125,000 is used to pay housing, utilities, auto expenses etc. If they are thrifty, they might save $20,000 per year. 

2. What happens when grandma sells her savings bonds or a rental home that took twenty years to appreciate? She is taxed as ordinary income instead of at the Capital gains rate and her retirement is confiscated by government. 

3. The sad truth is there aren’t enough “rich” to pay for all the spending, so regardless ,the tax burden will fall on the middle class.


----------



## FHBOY

To hop on what Mickiesue just wrote, I find the same things. I would not, however lay the blame at the feet of the TV, there is more to it than that. I grew up in a neighborhood in New York in the 50's and 60's. We "lived" on our block, everybody who wanted to know each other did, the adults were about the same ages, my best friend was born next door to my house a week after I was. We played in the street, and our parents would sit outside to watch us, they'd "stop by" unannounced for coffee or to chat, they weren't offended if you had something else that needed to be done at that point, they did also.

There was no fear (and that IS a big factor, now) of being open and friendly, the threats that face the USA in daily living never entered our neighborhood. Kids stayed out by themselves till after dark to play, we rode our bikes everywhere we wanted, and the adults seemed to be "all in the same boat", middle class and maybe some upper middle class folks working for a living. They weren't, or at least I didn't see it, competing with each other over who had more, that some did was just the way it was. That some were Catholic, Jewish, Protestant, Chinese didn't matter either - their commonality was socioeconomic, This argument does reinforce the concept that a lot of the current conflict in the USA derives from an income inequality, a point I am not bringing into this discussion [it is a whole topic unto itself].

Someone said that people in Mexico talk to each other and that is the difference. We have compressed time so much that we do not have, or think we no longer have, the time to speak with one another. I do miss that. Phone conversations are two minutes or less, attention spans are 15 to 30 seconds, you must make your point immediately, or else you've lost the attention of the person you're trying to reach. Our USA society seems to have sped up somewhere along the way - now 140 characters is the limit - so we lose something: human interaction.

Human interaction creates the ability to compromise, listen, think, and process what your are hearing. The process, face-to-face (or as we say: punim-a-punim) gives you the time and clues to discuss, use all the communication skills in a "real-time" situation (even that term is an anathema to human interaction). I suppose it is why the opportunity presented by retirement to Ajijic (or anywhere for that matter) is such an aphrodisiac at this point in my life. I am by nature, if not by profession, a social worker, I thrive on conversation (as y'all know by the length of my posts - sorry), and that is an overriding factor.

(I may have lost my train of thought here - but I'll plow on)

If one must get their point across in two sentences or three, you are going to find the way to make maximum impact in a minimum of time, and that does not give one time to fully think out and listen before coming out with something. That there is another problem - we are so rushed to come up with "something" that we do not think. How many, many times have we watched our politicians, leaders, clergy have to "back track" and explain something they have said, it keeps publicists and aides in business, which all could have been avoided had the speaker had more time to formulate what they wanted to say.

In conclusion, finally, what we see, hear and in some cases read are the product of a society that has lost their time to think. On NPR yesterday there was a piece on working in which one of the points were that people are so busy working, taking input, deadlines, forced to do output at an alarming rate, that we have lost the time to think. Busy people are 45% less likely to produce original ideas and new concepts. It said, and it is something I am sure retirees (and rich folks) know only too well, we need time to think, to formulate our thoughts and organize them for exposition, and our USA society in 2012, does not allow that.


----------



## FHBOY

This is a Fourm on Mexico and things of interest to Expats in Mexico. I would not like to see it dissolve into a political assertion thread. I am not asking y'all to limit your political views or not express them, it is just that I have come to expect a higher level of discussion and argumentation than two of three lines of crap I can read on CNN, FOXNEWS, MSNBC, etc etc.

We have previously proven in this thread, and have been censored for it by the Mods, that there is political passion, but let's discuss that, not who is a racist, who's a pervert, how bad Obama is, how bad Romney will be. 

This topic is theoretical and a really great one - not a political fist fight. :boxing:


----------



## jasavak

FHBOY said:


> This is a Fourm on Mexico and things of interest to Expats in Mexico. I would not like to see it dissolve into a political assertion thread. I am not asking y'all to limit your political views or not express them, it is just that I have come to expect a higher level of discussion and argumentation than two of three lines of crap I can read on CNN, FOXNEWS, MSNBC, etc etc.
> 
> We have previously proven in this thread, and have been censored for it by the Mods, that there is political passion, but let's discuss that, not who is a racist, who's a pervert, how bad Obama is, how bad Romney will be.
> 
> This topic is theoretical and a really great one - not a political fist fight. :boxing:



As long as we stick to state controlled media such as NPR , everything will be fine . Lol , Just kidding .


----------



## FHBOY

jasavak said:


> As long as we stick to state controlled media such as NPR , everything will be fine . Lol , Just kidding .


No, you're right [not about the "state control" of NPR], but then all media is controlled in one way or another. That is part of the comprehension of what they are saying; you know their underlying philosophy and, with time, can evaluate their statements and reports accordingly, and based on your belief system accept or reject them.

The point is, do we get the time to do that, or is the loudest voice, the most repeated voice and phrase the one that we remember? And if so, do we lose the ability to question it and the opportunity to discuss our differences?


----------



## jasavak

*An observation*



FHBOY said:


> Human interaction creates the ability to compromise, listen, think, and process what your are hearing. The process, face-to-face (or as we say: punim-a-punim) gives you the time and clues to discuss, use all the communication skills in a "real-time" situation (even that term is an anathema to human interaction)



An observation . I was watching some old movies from the 1950's and 1960's and could easily understand the different accents of Argentina , Spain , Uruguay and some of the Portuguese . However , I have a harder time with some of the new movies in both English and Spanish . It seems the older movies used better dialect and were more face to face . The newer ones seem to slur the words in a hurry and don't have as much interaction .


----------



## AlanMexicali

FHBOY said:


> No, you're right [not about the "state control" of NPR], but then all media is controlled in one way or another. That is part of the comprehension of what they are saying; you know their underlying philosophy and, with time, can evaluate their statements and reports accordingly, and based on your belief system accept or reject them.
> 
> The point is, do we get the time to do that, or is the loudest voice, the most repeated voice and phrase the one that we remember? And if so, do we lose the ability to question it and the opportunity to discuss our differences?




Any rhetoric or misinformation repeated long enough convinces the uniformed citizens it "has" to be "true".


----------



## FHBOY

jasavak said:


> An observation . I was watching some old movies from the 1950's and 1960's and could easily understand the different accents of Argentina , Spain , Uruguay and some of the Portuguese . However , I have a harder time with some of the new movies in both English and Spanish . It seems the older movies used better dialect and were more face to face . The newer ones seem to slur the words in a hurry and don't have as much interaction .


As a former movie critic in my college days, I invite you to watch a classic film, let's say "Casablanca", altho there are better choices for this exercise, and a film from last year or so. Look at what we call the "cuts", the changes in scenes, the length of scenes, the amount of dialog. You'll find that the current films have 40 - 60 second cuts, as that is all the new audiences can concentrate on (that and destroying things). The classic films reflected a society I was talking about, where dialog and time did not have to be compressed because our attention spans were longer.

In print, compare USAToday and the former New York Times (it too has gotten compressed) or the Old and New Wall Street Journal - there is the same change there.

Here, Mickie, we can blame TV to a great extent, we live in a 22-minute world now, and have since the 60's, everything in life can get resolved in 22 minutes any longer and we change the channel.

Can you imagine the 2013 remake of "The Ten Commandments- less plagues, less commandments, less angst from Yul Brenner - they were slaves, they went free, now let's go to Starbucks.


----------



## FHBOY

AlanMexicali said:


> Any rhetoric or misinformation repeated long enough convinces the uniformed citizens it "has" to be "true".


Quote A. Hitler, Germany 1938. Now isn't that a really scary thought, that the USA could evolve (de-volve) into this? Maybe that is why it is sadly time to leave for some of us.


----------



## jasavak

FHBOY said:


> No, you're right [not about the "state control" of NPR], but then all media is controlled in one way or another. That is part of the comprehension of what they are saying; you know their underlying philosophy and, with time, can evaluate their statements and reports accordingly, and based on your belief system accept or reject them.
> 
> The point is, do we get the time to do that, or is the loudest voice, the most repeated voice and phrase the one that we remember? And if so, do we lose the ability to question it and the opportunity to discuss our differences?


Yes , the loudest and most repeated voice is what we remember . The problem is that many of us don't know how to read between the lines . I believe that at least 60 % of all of our news is basically worthless nonsense with little truth to it .


Here is an example:

The NY times ran a story about how the owner of Virgin Airlines was basically a genius and a hero for using an alternative fuel for his aircraft. They said the use of fossil fuels was a mistake and never should have happened.

The real story:

They fueled one engine on one aircraft on an empty plane for an hour . The fuel was oil that took 100,000 coconuts to produce !


If we apply logic and read between the lines , we easily can dismiss the article as a misleading hoax . 

However many of us simply conclude this story as accurate science .


----------



## FHBOY

jasavak said:


> Yes , the loudest and most repeated voice is what we remember . The problem is that many of us don't know how to read between the lines . I believe that at least 60 % of all of our news is basically worthless nonsense with little truth to it .
> 
> However many of us simply conclude this story as accurate science .


A good point. In this 30 second world, and a world of narrowing interests (think Renaissance man ideal), who can stop to question this "great news". I suppose the best analogy is the movement toward "local produce" and the new exposure to how much produce at the market really costs: in terms of fuel, pollution, wages etc etc. Maybe this is a start at that level to allow critical thinking. 

But all the noise does interfere with critical thinking now, doesn't it?


----------



## mickisue1

jasavak said:


> If you are referring to Warren Buffet types and capital gains, yes. However, this is a misguided distraction for the following reasons.
> 
> 1. We tax income, not wealth. Therefore a married couple earning $250,000 may have little or no assets because they already pay around 50% in tax . The remaining $125,000 is used to pay housing, utilities, auto expenses etc. If they are thrifty, they might save $20,000 per year.
> 
> 2. What happens when grandma sells her savings bonds or a rental home that took twenty years to appreciate? She is taxed as ordinary income instead of at the Capital gains rate and her retirement is confiscated by government.
> 
> 3. The sad truth is there aren’t enough “rich” to pay for all the spending, so regardless ,the tax burden will fall on the middle class.


Please give me the analysis that leads you to believe that the couple making $250K pays 50% of their income in taxes. Given that we are taxed on net, not gross income, are they really foolish enough not to own a home, have a Roth IRA, or contribute to an employer sponsored retirement plan? 

Even if that's true, are you really trying to argue that they are scraping along on $125K, when the average gross household income in the US, with two adults working, is less than 40% of that?

If Grandma can afford to own rental housing, good on her! And if she sells it, or her bonds, after she reaches age 65, she will be taxed less, because those over 65 receive extra deductions, and, if they are living on retirement income, are usually in a lower tax bracket than prior to retirement.

The tax burden does fall on the middle class. And, frankly, I have no problem with that. I would appreciate it, however, if those scraping by on $125K after taxes would pay the same share of overall taxes that I do.

In addition to that, I would appreciate it, even more, if those making much less than I do, working two, three jobs to support a family, didn't pay more for their taxes than those poor people earning $250K.

And now: :focus:


----------



## makaloco

ptrichmondmike said:


> Man, I can't even turn on the TV anymore -- so much political vitriol coming from all sides, it is just sickening and has shaken my faith in our democracy. What's the climate like down there? Are gringos as polarized as all the nutcases up here insisting that civilization will crumble if they don't get everythng they want?


Ten pages later, that seems to work out to a "yes". :lol:
I have to visit the US during the pre-election months and am dreading it. Here in Mexico, I avoid political discussions with other expats as best I can. Voting in presidential elections (sometimes) is the limit of my engagement. The entire process has become too sordid.


----------



## AlanMexicali

FHBOY said:


> Quote A. Hitler, Germany 1938. Now isn't that a really scary thought, that the USA could evolve (de-volve) into this? Maybe that is why it is sadly time to leave for some of us.


I'm gone to greener pastures.


Bye Bye Blackbird

Pack up all my care and woe,
Here I go,
Singing low,
Bye bye blackbird,
Where somebody waits for me,
Sugar's sweet, so is she,
Bye bye
Blackbird!

No one here can love or understand me,
Oh, what hard luck stories they all hand me,
Make my bed and light the light,
I'll be home late tonight,
Blackbird bye bye.

Pack up all my care and woe,
Here I go,
Singing low,
Bye (bye) bye (bye) blackbird.
(tchoo tchoo tchoo tchoo tchoo tchoo)
Where somebody waits for me,
Sugar's sweet, so is she,
Bye (bye) bye (bye) blackbird.
(tchoo tchoo tchoo tchoo tchoo tchoo)

No one here can love or understand me,
Oh, what hard luck stories they all hand me,
(Oh oh oh oh)
Make my bed, light that light,
I'll be home late tonight,
Blackbird...

Make my bed and light the light,
I'll be home late tonight,
Leave you bird jet in the sky
Toodle oo!
Farewell!
Bye bye!

Blackbird
(Blackbird,Blackbird)
We'll take the flying little blackbird bye!


----------



## jasavak

If they own a home , they pay $22,500 in property tax . Roth IRA’s are based on income that is already taxed . It’s the capital appreciation and distributions that are tax free at retirement at is currently limited to $5,000 

2. They already paid "their fair share "

3. No one mention scraping , but these people are not " millionaires " unless they can save a portion of their income over their lifetimes .

4. Why is it good to wipe out grandma's life savings ? Are you referring to the tiny personal exemption ?


----------



## FHBOY

makaloco said:


> Ten pages later, that seems to work out to a "yes". :lol:
> I have to visit the US during the pre-election months and am dreading it. Here in Mexico, I avoid political discussions with other expats as best I can. Voting in presidential elections (sometimes) is the limit of my engagement. The entire process has become too sordid.


Yes. But what has happened here, with a few exceptions, was a dialog - a mostly civil one. If we can channel our obsession with politics - that is if we have one - into civil dialog, perhaps there is hope - maybe not for the USA - but for us a human beings. This thread has been fun - it has all been said so I am OOH!


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## pappabee

joelpb said:


> I have to disagree with you sue. The president is a racist and divider. It is always some
> other group that causes all the problems not his group which is comprised of some good
> people and then a lot of preverts and criminals.


Talk about lack of discourse. Anyone who can post those ideas on a public forum proves how opinionated they are. Please understand that I am not saying that you are anything but opinionated. And, you should not be able to fault me for saying that. Your post proves what you are. 

But, I’m an old school person. I was unfortunate to be visiting Kent State when the Guard shot those kids and I did walk with MLK. I did a record hop just outside of Cincinnati Ohio where they had a rope strung across the Gym. They asked me back the next year and I told them if there was another rope, there would be no show. The promised no rope and they enjoyed the James Brown and Ike and Tina Turner show along with the record hop.

You have a right to voice your opinions and so do I. Unfortunately my opinion is exactly opposite from yours and in order to retain some calm here, I’ll bite my tongue and let you have your say.


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## joelpb

Isla Verde said:


> Pray, tell me sir, what is a "prevert", and what group are you referring to that is full of them along with an untold number of criminals?


I am referring to child molesters, pedafiles, communist and socialist. The so called 
rainbow party.


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## pappabee

jasavak said:


> Yes , the loudest and most repeated voice is what we remember . The problem is that many of us don't know how to read between the lines . I believe that at least 60 % of all of our news is basically worthless nonsense with little truth to it .
> 
> 
> Here is an example:
> 
> The NY times ran a story about how the owner of Virgin Airlines was basically a genius and a hero for using an alternative fuel for his aircraft. They said the use of fossil fuels was a mistake and never should have happened.
> 
> The real story:
> 
> They fueled one engine on one aircraft on an empty plane for an hour . The fuel was oil that took 100,000 coconuts to produce !
> 
> 
> If we apply logic and read between the lines , we easily can dismiss the article as a misleading hoax .
> 
> However many of us simply conclude this story as accurate science .


One of the best sources of news used to be the London version of the BBC but today even that has been perverted somewhat. IMHO though, it's still better than anything you can get here.


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## Isla Verde

joelpb said:


> I am referring to child molesters, pedafiles, communist and socialist. The so called
> rainbow party.


I'd better bite my tongue before I post something that will get me tossed from this forum.


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## joaquinx

pappabee said:


> One of the best sources of news used to be the London version of the BBC but today even that has been perverted somewhat. IMHO though, it's still better than anything you can get here.


You mean that those who publish on this forum are misleading people?


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## Guest




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## FHBOY

joelpb said:


> I am referring to child molesters, pedafiles, communist and socialist. The so called
> rainbow party.


"Each time I try to get out, they drag me back in" - The Godfather Part II

First of all it is "pedophiles" - use your spell check

Second the political/social movements of communism and/or socialism are not perversions, they are political systems, unless of course things that are not agreeable to you are all "perversions".

Third, what is the rainbow party? Are you speaking of the Rainbow Coalition of decades ago? Is the term meant as a derogatory referral to the LGBT movement? Are you speaking of punch and cookies with the leprechauns?

Joelpb: This Forum welcomes all opinions within the rules of the Forum, you will not be banned for your rhetoric, but worse then that you could be ignored, and the conversation continued around you. We welcome diverse opinions when well stated and informed, we seem to loathe jingos, one-liners, and the usual political crap one sees these days. If it can be proven that what you say is true, I would welcome your documentation.


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## pappabee

joaquinx said:


> You mean that those who publish on this forum are misleading people?


I didn't say that they were misleading people. They are posting what they feel. Right or wrong, sane or not. We were talking about the news media that's all.


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## FHBOY

pappabee said:


> I didn't say that they were misleading people. They are posting what they feel. Right or wrong, sane or not. We were talking about the news media that's all.


On another thread someone was inquiring about gas lines. He got a lot of replies and all but one or two were exactly what Pappabee is talking about, they are opinion or observations and have as much credibility as we put into the writer. It is sort of like the difference between the Encyclopedia Britannica and Wikipedia, whom would you trust? RVGRINGO once said that the trouble he has with forum like this is people present opinion as fact, and opinion should be labeled as such.


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## pappabee

joelpb said:


> I am referring to child molesters, pedafiles, communist and socialist. The so called
> rainbow party.


I'm sorry but the only two links listed on The Dogpile search site are these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_party_(sexuality)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_(political_party)

If you would please tell me which Rainbow Party you are referring to it would be a great help.


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## joaquinx

pappabee said:


> I'm sorry but the only two links listed on The Dogpile search site are these:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_party_(sexuality)


But wikipedia states that the Rainbow Party (sexuality) was an urban legend, so I guess that he meant the other. Did Fox News cover this?


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## conorkilleen

Typical political discussion thread. 11 pages of worthless babble


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## joaquinx

conorkilleen said:


> Typical political discussion thread. 11 pages of worthless babble


Thanks for the contribution.


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## Isla Verde

conorkilleen said:


> Typical political discussion thread. 11 pages of worthless babble


Another fine example of an opinionated post!


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## conorkilleen

joaquinx said:


> Thanks for the *opinion*.


there..I fixed it. You are welcome


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## jasavak

pappabee said:


> One of the best sources of news used to be the London version of the BBC but today even that has been perverted somewhat. IMHO though, it's still better than anything you can get here.




One of my professors made us use the Wall Street Journal for our sources . It does make sense because people literally put their money where their mouths are .


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## Isla Verde

jasavak said:


> One of my professors made us use the Wall Street Journal for our sources . It does make sense because people literally put their money where their mouths are .


Would it make sense these days, keeping in mind that the Wall Street Journal is now part of the Rupert Murdoch news empire?


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## mickisue1

jasavak said:


> If they own a home , they pay $22,500 in property tax . Roth IRA’s are based on income that is already taxed . It’s the capital appreciation and distributions that are tax free at retirement at is currently limited to $5,000


Wow. Our taxes have gone up, but they're still under $5K. Your folks must live in the Taj Mahal.


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## Mark1

ptrichmondmike said:


> Obama can't get anything done with a House completely dug in to thwart his every move, and a Senate that requires at least 60 votes to get anything passed at all. And how and when did that 60-vote thing ever happen?


 I preface my reply by saying that my point applies equally to whomever is in control of the Executive, Senate, House and Court.

Something which Americans do not understand is that the original design of the US Federal government was to make it as hard as possible to get anything done. The means chosen was to divide power in such a way that any one of these 4 sources-of-power could independently stop - or at least delay - any measure about which there was sufficient opposition. 

The founders recognized that a government - any government - is extremely vulnerable to getting into mischief. If the President saw mischief coming from the legislature, he could veto. If the Senate attempted mischief, the popular house could stop the Senate. If the House were overwhelmed by a popular proposal that the Senate thought imprudent, then the House could be stopped. The role of the Court for "judicial review" was not widely anticipated (with arguable exceptions of Hamilton in Federalist and Marshal in the Virginia convention on ratification. Ironically, Marshal told the Virginia convention exactly what he was going to do.) In any case, we have come to accept judicial review as a part of our constitutional system (so that's the way it is until we have a better idea.) If the Court finds a law unconstitutional then that's the end of that mischief.

(Parenthetically, I will say that I'm no fan of the Court's decisions historically. Nor am I fond of the decisions of the Executives, Senators nor House members. Yet, I fear that things would have been much worse had the Founders not designed the Constitution in the way that they did; i.e., to make it possible for any one of these 4 to stop all the others.)

Whether one or another of us likes the idea of a system-of-government that can stop (or at least delay) their favorite idea matters less than whether such a system is ultimately in our best interest. I happen to be of the opinion that this design was an extraordinarily great idea; and that is so whether it happens to serve or block my own preferences.

That said, it remains only to decide whether we prefer to operate within such a system as so designed, or, if not, to amend that system according to the procedure prescribed for amendment. I firmly reject either alternative:
- revolution by violence; or,
- abandoning the principle of government under a constitution.

Respectfully,
Mark


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## jasavak

mickisue1 said:


> Wow. Our taxes have gone up, but they're still under $5K. Your folks must live in the Taj Mahal.


We pay more than $12,000 a year . The $22,000 is an estimate using a home valued at a multiple of 5 years income of $250,000 . 

I use the figure of $250,000 because that is what our government uses as a definition of " the rich that don't pay their fair share " Of course they throw in a few actors like Warren Buffet to create the illusion that anyone making over $100,000 is a wealthy tycoon . Instead of admiring and promoting success , the regime promotes animosity and vengeance . We are told that these people are the cause of our problems and their actions need to be punished .


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## terrybahena

jasavak said:


> We pay more than $12,000 a year . The $22,000 is an estimate using a home valued at a multiple of 5 years income of $250,000 .
> 
> I use the figure of $250,000 because that is what our government uses as a definition of " the rich that don't pay their fair share " Of course they throw in a few actors like Warren Buffet to create the illusion that anyone making over $100,000 is a wealthy tycoon . Instead of admiring and promoting success , the regime promotes animosity and vengeance . We are told that these people are the cause of our problems and their actions need to be punished .


Property tax must vary according to state. In Calif with a $600K house I pay $6000 a year. 1%


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## jasavak

Isla Verde said:


> Would it make sense these days, keeping in mind that the Wall Street Journal is now part of the Rupert Murdoch news empire?


I don't subscribe to any newspapers , but the WSJ can't be any worse than the NY Times . Journalism has been an unethical form of art for many years . They just don't care about reporting the real story because it's much easier and sells better if they make something up . I would rather watch a movie , if I want fiction and entertainment . 


Wasn't there a movie made about that ?


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## jasavak

terrybahena said:


> Property tax must vary according to state. In Calif with a $600K house I pay $6000 a year. 1%


It depends on what county . It California it varies from 1.2 % in San Bernardino County to as high as 2 % in Orange County . We pay nearly 3 % in Texas . In NY and other states it can be as high as 6% .


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## conorkilleen

terrybahena said:


> Property tax must vary according to state. In Calif with a $600K house I pay $6000 a year. 1%


North Carolina- 250k house with 2+ acres = $1,600 a year in property tax


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## jasavak

I noticed beach front condos in northen Baja California valued at $170,000 had property taxes of $140 a year . The rate is only .0008


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## XDoodlebugger

mickisue1 said:


> Please give me the analysis that leads you to believe that the couple making $250K pays 50% of their income in taxes. .....
> 
> The tax burden does fall on the middle class. And, frankly, I have no problem with that. I would appreciate it, however, if those scraping by on $125K after taxes would pay the same share of overall taxes that I do.
> 
> In addition to that, I would appreciate it, even more, if those making much less than I do, working two, three jobs to support a family, didn't pay more for their taxes than those poor people earning $250K.
> 
> And now: :focus:



Federal personal income tax 17% (2011 est. - 18.2%) 
State & local income taxes 10.1%
(2009 - 10.6%) State taxes range from under 6% to over 12%. 
Social security & Medicaid 7.65% Total rate is actually 15.3% since half is paid by the employer
Federal corporate income tax share 3% Based on corporate taxes being approximately 1/6 of personal taxes, and that they are paid by individuals in the final analysis.
Property tax 2.5%
(2007 - 2.7%) Yearly average actual costs range from under $200 in Alaska to almost $1900 in New Jersey
Fuel/gasoline tax .5% (2009 est. - .6%) 
Other 5% (2009 est. - 7%) Includes estate tax, fees, licenses, inflation losses, inheritance, deficit allowance, gift, and others too numerous to mention. 

Total tax percentage paid by the above average US citizen, 2005 - 54.4%
Total tax percentage paid by the above average US citizen, 2009 est. - 57.7%


As far as who is paying the federal income tax:
Tax Year 2009 

Percentiles Ranked by AGI


Percentage of Federal Personal Income Tax Paid

Tier Income> % of Tax Paid
Top 1% $343,927 36.73

Top 5% $154,643 58.66

Top 10% $112,124 70.47

Top 25% $66,193 87.30

Top 50% $32,396 97.75

Bottom 50% <$32,396 * 2.25*


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## mickisue1

XDoodlebugger said:


> Federal personal income tax 17% (2011 est. - 18.2%)
> State & local income taxes 10.1%
> (2009 - 10.6%) State taxes range from under 6% to over 12%.
> Social security & Medicaid 7.65% Total rate is actually 15.3% since half is paid by the employer
> Federal corporate income tax share 3% Based on corporate taxes being approximately 1/6 of personal taxes, and that they are paid by individuals in the final analysis.
> Property tax 2.5%
> (2007 - 2.7%) Yearly average actual costs range from under $200 in Alaska to almost $1900 in New Jersey
> Fuel/gasoline tax .5% (2009 est. - .6%)
> Other 5% (2009 est. - 7%) Includes estate tax, fees, licenses, inflation losses, inheritance, deficit allowance, gift, and others too numerous to mention.
> 
> Total tax percentage paid by the above average US citizen, 2005 - 54.4%
> Total tax percentage paid by the above average US citizen, 2009 est. - 57.7%
> 
> 
> As far as who is paying the federal income tax:
> Tax Year 2009
> 
> Percentiles Ranked by AGI
> 
> 
> Percentage of Federal Personal Income Tax Paid
> 
> Tier Income> % of Tax Paid
> Top 1% $343,927 36.73
> 
> Top 5% $154,643 58.66
> 
> Top 10% $112,124 70.47
> 
> Top 25% $66,193 87.30
> 
> Top 50% $32,396 97.75
> 
> Bottom 50% <$32,396 * 2.25*


There are a few errors in your assumptions. First off, a question: are you assuming that these mythic people are at a net income, or a gross income, of $250K?

That, of course, will make a great difference in all the numbers.

Social Security and Medicare are only taxed on the first $110,100 of income, so they will not be paying it on the entire $250K. Assuming gross income, and assuming that they each make exactly half that, or $125K, they will not pay SS and Medicare on a total of $39,800 of their income. 

Throwing in the 3% for corporate taxes is questionable, at best, as are the "others too numerous to mention". Nevertheless, the total, even with the erroneous assumption for SS and Medicaid, and tossing in another 8% that are not validly included, comes to 45.75%. At $250K, that leaves $133,125, not $125,000. 

That extra $8,125 represents the gross income for one third of a year for the average single taxpayer.

I have only one more comment, and then, truly, let's get back to talking about the best routes from the US border to one's home in MX.

When having a conversation, especially online, the words one uses are extremely important. It's clear that people on both sides of several questions, even here in this forum, have strong beliefs about those questions. 

But one can have a conversation, and seek to understand, and to be understood. Using words like "regime" to discuss the current government, and "unethical form of art" to discuss journalism, does little or nothing to promote understanding. 

Please be cogniscent of the words you use. They matter.


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## jasavak

Isn't this thread about how insane we are about politics ? 


Another thing , when President Obama says "Lets get some chow" What does he mean? I hope Fido isn’t on the menu .


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## Isla Verde

jasavak said:


> Isn't this thread about how insane we are about politics ?
> 
> 
> Another thing , when President Obama says "Lets get some chow" What does he mean? I hope Fido isn’t on the menu .


Very cute pun. As I'm sure you know, most words in most languages have several meanings, which is the source of many groan-worthy puns, including this one. According to my favorite online dictionary:

*chow*
1. n-uncount Food can be referred to as chow. (AM) 
INFORMAL Help yourself to some chow. 

2. n-count A chow is a kind of dog that has a thick coat and a curled tail. 
Chows originally came from China. 

I wonder if the source of your pun is this:

*chow mein * 
Chow mein is a Chinese-style dish that consists of fried noodles, cooked meat, and vegetables. n-uncount 
...chicken chow mein.


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## tepetapan

10 years ago in the Chicago metro area $1000 a month in taxes was not unusual.
Maybe not the norm but close enough to keep me from ever buying there again.


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