# Iguala, Guerrero



## Isla Verde

A somber synopsis of the growing political crisis in Mexico by Enrique Krause:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/10/o...module=Recommendation&src=recg&pgtype=article


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## Justina

I tried to put in a 'like' to your link but the forum keeps telling me that I am not logged in while I clearly am.
There is also a good programme on Monday mornings around 9.15am when carmen aristegui talks to Denise Dresser and Lorenzo Meyer, both highly respected as political commentators. Both work or have worked for colmex.


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## Isla Verde

Justina said:


> I tried to put in a 'like' to your link but the forum keeps telling me that I am not logged in while I clearly am.
> There is also a good programme on Monday mornings around 9.15am when carmen aristegui talks to Denise Dresser and Lorenzo Meyer, both highly respected as political commentators. Both work or have worked for colmex.


Thanks for trying to "like" my link. You could also trying logging out and then logging in again, which might reset your connection. If that doesn't work, you can lodge a complaint here: Expat Forum Support/Site Help - Expat Forum For People Moving Overseas And Living Abroad


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## diablita

Ayotzinapa's Uncomfortable Dead | Beverly Bell

Commentary from the Huffington Post.


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## travelinhobo

I'm confused. If the guy works for the NYT, how could it have been translated into English? My first thought is that if he lives in NYC, so how does he really know the sentiments of the people down here. But apparently he lives here. Which makes me more confused as to how he got onto the editorial pages. But it's all the same - it's the media. Just as bad as a corrupt country, no?


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## Longford

travelinhobo said:


> I'm confused. If the guy works for the NYT, how could it have been translated into English? My first thought is that if he lives in NYC, so how does he really know the sentiments of the people down here. But apparently he lives here. Which makes me more confused as to how he got onto the editorial pages. But it's all the same - it's the media. Just as bad as a corrupt country, no?


If you're commenting about Enrique Krauze, whose Op-Ed piece Isla Verde linked, above: my understanding that he does not work for the New York Times, but that he offers, from time-to-time, "opinon" pieces for the International Hearld Tribune, the NYT and other newspapers, and that he also authors articles for magazines in Mexico. I don't know if he still lives in Mexico full-time. He is a Mexican by birth.


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## Isla Verde

Who is Enrique Krauze? Read this to find out: Enrique Krauze - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Longford

*Not Helpful*



> They say that the key to good brand humor is the sweet spot between the benign and the totally inappropriate. So late Sunday night, @CrunchMX — the Mexican Twitter account for Nestle's Crunch candy bar — made a go of it:
> 
> "A los de Ayotzinapa les dieron Crunch," the account tweeted, a little pun on its namesake candy bar. Translation? "They crunched those from Ayotzinapa."
> 
> "Those from Ayotzinapa" being the 43 trainee teachers who were apparently abducted, killed, incinerated and ground up by a local drug gang in late September, and whose disappearance has sparked a national outcry.
> 
> As far as social media mess-ups go, this one is a doozy. Nestle and the Crunch brand, in particular, have spent much of the past 24 hours apologizing and condemning the message — mostly in vain.


Read more: Nestle sorry for tweeting joke about 43 students presumed dead in Mexico


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## Hound Dog

Personally, I thouht Krauze's editorial piece was extraordinarily perceptive and timely no matter for whom he works or must answer.


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## Isla Verde

Hound Dog said:


> Personally, I thouht Krauze's editorial piece was extraordinarily perceptive and timely no matter for whom he works or must answer.


Me too, which is why I posted it.


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## Hound Dog

Thanks for doing so, Isla. The editorial touched me and, otherwise, I would never have seen it.


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## ojosazules11

Here is an opinion article from La Jornada today. It resonated deeply with me, so I've translated it.

The link is to the article in Spanish:
La Jornada: Ayotzinapa: compasión y redención

Ayotzinapa: Compassion and Redemption
By Carlos Martinez Garcia 

The mass demonstrations clamouring for justice in the case of the 43 normalista students from Ayotzinapa are moving acts of collective compassion. The horror did not happen only to them, but also to us. Let us remember that compassion means "to suffer with", to feel as our own that which harms others.

It is striking the way in which citizens from distinct social, political, religious and economic backgrounds have made the pain and indignation of the families and friends of the 43 disappeared students their own. And in good measure this is because this sickness has not arisen in isolation or spontaneously, but has been provoked through a long, a very long, chain of atrocities perpetrated by those in power. Those who wagered that these demented attacks against the students would provoke protests only in and around Ayotzinapa, or maybe in other parts of Guerrero, misjudged the state of consciousness/conscienceness of the citizenry. 
(trans. note: "conciencia" can indicate both "conscious/aware" as well as "conscience" - I think both meanings are significant in this context.)

The dreadful wrong which was savagely carried out against the group of students on the night of September 26 has mobilized countless men and women who are exhausted of so much political and moral putrefaction. They have come together to condemn this moral and political rot which has taken hold in political spheres, where it thrives against the common good and collective interests. In the midst of all this suffering which has filled streets and plazas, a moral reserve has emerged which can guide us to new paths, to reconstruct the social fabric which has been ripped for decades through predatory politics by governing elites.

This exemplary exercise of compassion which brings us to internalize the torment and pain of the fathers and mothers of the students must mark a "before" and "after" in various spheres. One of these is in the sphere of justice. It is necessary that those who maliciously orchestrated the disappearance of the students be brought to justice and pay a penal cost for their actions. Those who carefully wove the symbiosis between organized crime and various levels of government are also implicated.

Another area which needs radical change is the way in which individuals rise to power and how they wield that power. The citizenry needs to intensify their vigilance and oversight in this process, and needs to request accountability from governing officials from all political parties and popular representatives. For this to happen, in addition to that compassion which makes attacks inflicted by those in power on fellow citizens become our own, it is inescapable that we must collectively redeem these dark days which are pounding our country.

The first definition of "redeem" in the Real Academia de la Lengua Española is to rescue or free a captive from slavery by paying a ransom. It is urgent to rescue Mexico, to free her from the slavery of corruption, where holding political office results in exorbitant wealth, free her from the lack of respect for human rights, from impunity which empowers further perpetration of mass crimes, from extreme poverty which beats down millions of people daily, from networks which sexually exploit women and children, from governmental institutions which do not follow the very laws which brought them into existence.

The price to be paid is that all of us who are interested in the collective exercise of working for the redemption of this country need to intensify the building of a critical consciousness, and to map out a route to follow during this process. We must not become confused nor lose sight of the horizon towards which to direct the justified indignation which is coming to a boil in all the cardinal points of this land.

The marches which have shaken Mexico, in particular the massive ones in the nation's capital, are notable by their example and spirit. The contingents of university students, workers, intellectuals, members of various religious groups, and citizens with no party affiliation have overwhelmingly chosen a peaceful route. There has been a cross-current of a handful of those who attack both private and public installations. In doing this they are not only damaging or destroying material goods, some of which have great symbolic and historical value, but they are also harming the struggle of the vast majority, those who show their faces and express their deep pain and indignation without harming the rights of other citizens.

The incendiary logic, that this is the work of infiltrators who are at the service of government or partisan interests, or of vigilantes who by calling themselves anarchists are actually deforming the principles of anarchism, is dangerous for the work of those interested in a radical healing of Mexico, shown by the rivers of people which time and again have overflowed the Zocalo and other plazas throughout the country. The actions of these few who hide behind the bandanas covering their faces are sabotaging the millions who are civilly showing their faces and publicly assuming responsibility for their actions.

The redemption of the wounded Mexican nation cannot be put off. We have before us "kairos", the opportune time, the breaking point when we decide what direction to take at the crossroads currently facing our nation. We must redeem the oppressive structures, be freed from all things which prevent life with dignity for each citizen, and we must do this in nonviolent ways.


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## Hound Dog

Thank you for sharing that with us Ojo. To think we moved to Mexico in 2001 becsuse our first choice, Colombia, seemed out of control and too violent. Inept U.S. policy lubricated the move of the drug exporters into the insatiable U.S. market from South America via the Caribbean to Central America and Mexico via the U.S. border states. Stupidity is too kind a Word.


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## AlanMexicali

My wife just heard on the radio news that many chains are planning on leaving Guerrero including Bimbo and Walmart.


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## coondawg

Sadly, Mexico is a country of empty words, nothing ever changes. This event is exactly like all those that came before, and all those that will follow.


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## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> My wife just heard on the radio news that many chains are planning on leaving Guerrero including Bimbo and Walmart.


Walmart is not leaving Guerrero: El Universal - Finanzas - Walmart califica de falsa la versión de que considere salir de Guerrero


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## buzzbar

coondawg said:


> Sadly, Mexico is a country of empty words...


At least the practical action being taken by thousands of people is going beyond introspective, philosophical and angst filled discussions about such concepts as compassion and redemption.


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## SirRon

Isla Verde said:


> Walmart is not leaving Guerrero: El Universal - Finanzas - Walmart califica de falsa la versión de que considere salir de Guerrero



I am happy you cleared that up, had me worried there for moment, I shop there daily and they have many items I unable get anywhere else


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## lhpdiver

I'll post this on this thread rather than starting a new one - I don't like propagating rumors but I have received 3 emails since 3:30PM that the Autopista (between Cuernavaca and DF) is closed due to demonstrations. When I strum through the TV channels I see nothing.


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## AlanMexicali

lhpdiver said:


> I'll post this on this thread rather than starting a new one - I don't like propagating rumors but I have received 3 emails since 3:30PM that the Autopista is closed due to demonstrations. When I strum through the TV channels I see nothing.


Noticias MVS


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## Isla Verde

The demonstrations and other actions have started to adversely affect the Mexican economy. Maybe that will make the powers-that-be do something to deal with the root causes of the unrest.


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## sparks

And the root causes are the whole of corrupt Mexico .... quite a job


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## ojosazules11

buzzbar said:


> At least the practical action being taken by thousands of people is going beyond introspective, philosophical and angst filled discussions about such concepts as compassion and redemption.


The author of this article is actually vey supportive of protest and action, just not of violence as the means to the end. Given that Gandhi and Martin Luther King took a similar approach puts him in pretty good company, in my books.


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## buzzbar

Tried and failed........ A large, Gandhi inspired non-violent, direct action civic movement to effect change in Mexico has been active for over three years. The Movement for Peace with Justice and Dignity was formed following the execution of seven youths in Morelos, on March 28, 2011. 

Its co-founder and leader, Mexican Peace Activist Pietro Ameglio, conceded this year: “it never moved to a stage that nonviolent civil resistance requires: non-cooperation and civil disobedience......In non-violent resistance through civil means, the scale of dialogue – public forums, negotiations – mass mobilizations, proved insufficient to pressure the state.”

If all that, including mass mobilization, has failed to pressure the state, what is left?


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## ojosazules11

buzzbar said:


> Tried and failed........ A large, Gandhi inspired non-violent, direct action civic movement to effect change in Mexico has been active for over three years. The Movement for Peace with Justice and Dignity was formed following the execution of seven youths in Morelos, on March 28, 2011.
> 
> Its co-founder and leader, Mexican Peace Activist Pietro Ameglio, conceded this year: “it never moved to a stage that nonviolent civil resistance requires: non-cooperation and civil disobedience......In non-violent resistance through civil means, the scale of dialogue – public forums, negotiations – mass mobilizations, proved insufficient to pressure the state.”
> 
> If all that, including mass mobilization, has failed to pressure the state, what is left?


I guess I would hope the current outrage breaking out all over the country, if harnessed adequately, could provide the impetus for this type of non-violent resistance. I remember once a former rebel fighter from Guatemala, who had seen the widespread destruction and suffering that results from civil war, lamented that they (himself and other young idealists who took up arms) had never been told of other options to armed insurrection to bring about social change, such as non-violent resistance in the tradition of Gandhi and MLK. He wished that option had been presented to them. I don't know if it could ever have been a viable option in Guatemala, with its death squads and military dictatorships which wiped out entire villages without remorse. But if such a movement could arise out of the current situation in Mexico, I think it would be better than the alternatives of people getting tired of protesting and things going back to the way it has been for years (where no one sees, hears or says anything, even though everyone knows what's going on) or all out civil war. 

My other concern is that the when protests turn violent it opens the door to repressive measures by the government against all dissent.


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## coondawg

Gary, what do you think will be the final outcome on all these recent happenings? Will anything change, or will things just go on as they usually do?


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## SirRon

Isla Verde said:


> The demonstrations and other actions have started to adversely affect the Mexican economy. Maybe that will make the powers-that-be do something to deal with the root causes of the unrest.


I agree, we all live here, we expats feel the effects from all of this, even if we are only lurking at the current events


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## buzzbar

ojosazules11 said:


> I guess I would hope the current outrage breaking out all over the country, if harnessed adequately, could provide the impetus for this type of non-violent resistance. ................. if such a movement could arise out of the current situation in Mexico, I think it would be better than the alternatives of people getting tired of protesting and things going back to the way it has been for years ....or all out civil war.


Yes, probably not wise to look too far ahead - maintaining the rage, however that rage is expressed, is the thing for now. If the massacre proves to be a watershed and leads to a more mature, focused resistance, the form that resistance will take is a question for the future...... 

Still have my doubts about the applicability of Gandhi principles in Mexico, particularly when seen against the achievements that the autodefensas gained through armed activity. Maybe they've found the formula that's applicable to Mexico - armed resistance supported by largescale, non-violent public actions and support.


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## Longford

buzzbar said:


> Yes, probably not wise to look too far ahead - maintaining the rage, however that rage is expressed, is the thing for now.


" ... however that rage is expressed ..." ""however", which has and continues to include violence and which has and continues to target, in part, Mexicans who had absolutely nothing to do with the Iguala incident ... is not a philosophy deserving of endorsement. 

Most of the protests, including those which have been violent, have had little to do with Iguala - other than to use Iguala as a reason to vent upset not only with the "government" but with the nation generally. 

With about a third of those asked in survey after survey saying they'd move to the USA given the opportunity, it's no wonder we see protests by many Mexicans who seem to have give-up on Mexico. 

Expats considering a move to Mexico, pay attention to this current events and history lesson.


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## AlanMexicali

Longford said:


> " ... however that rage is expressed ..." ""however", which has and continues to include violence and which has and continues to target, in part, Mexicans who had absolutely nothing to do with the Iguala incident ... is not a philosophy deserving of endorsement.
> 
> Most of the protests, including those which have been violent, have had little to do with Iguala - other than to use Iguala as a reason to vent upset not only with the "government" but with the nation generally.
> 
> With about a third of those asked in survey after survey saying they'd move to the USA given the opportunity, it's no wonder we see protests by many Mexicans who seem to have give-up on Mexico.
> 
> Expats considering a move to Mexico, pay attention to this current events and history lesson.


You have got it all wrong. 99.5% of the demonstrators are peacefully expressing outrage. You seem to not be see the video on TV here that shows the crowds but continually in your comments to focus on the very few who are destructive and disrespectful. Maybe one day you might understand what is happening here lately.


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## AlanMexicali

The people want to see what the gov´t. is going to do about the events in Guerrero and take if from there, not what is in the future or of all the different events up until now. This is the current precedent for the time being and their focus. 

If Longford actually had Mexican friends and family he would have noticed people here are as as pissed of at those destructive behaviors as you are Longford. Videos from Google usually only show destructive behavior not the whole scene as TV shows here. Those uneventful demonstrations make unexciting video and are sidelined by those that show a few people tearing the place up.


50,000 matched in Mexicao City to the Zocalo with no problem and in many other demonstrations, that Google doesn´t make a show of in any abundance, if at all, all around Mexico and in other countries. The delincuents doing their thing doesn´t take away from the main cause here like you seem to think. The point is made.


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=ojosazules11;5749193]I guess I would hope the current outrage breaking out all over the country, if harnessed adequately, could provide the impetus for this type of non-violent resistance. I remember once a former rebel fighter from Guatemala, who had seen the widespread destruction and suffering that results from civil war, lamented that they (himself and other young idealists who took up arms) had never been told of other options to armed insurrection to bring about social change, such as non-violent resistance in the tradition of Gandhi and MLK. He wished that option had been presented to them. I don't know if it could ever have been a viable option in Guatemala, with its death squads and military dictatorships which wiped out entire villages without remorse. But if such a movement could arise out of the current situation in Mexico, I think it would be better than the alternatives of people getting tired of protesting and things going back to the way it has been for years (where no one sees, hears or says anything, even though everyone knows what's going on) or all out civil war. 

My other concern is that the when protests turn violent it opens the door to repressive measures by the government against all dissent.[/QUOTE]_

Dawg was born and raised in small town South Alabama starting in 1942 and. thus, was raised in the utterly racially repressive atmosphere of that state in the 1940s, 1950s and much of the 1960s. I was a privileged white boy, son of an English/Scottish clan of some prominence which had settled in my home community in the 1800s. As such.I personally benefitted significantly from the social system manifest in those days both financially and in terms of personal status. I, as it happens, am also a student of Ghandi´s movement in India years before the social turmoil of the time in Alabama. I was in the middle of the Alabama turmoil both as a resident observer and a participant in Dr. King´s movement during the time of George Wallace and the Birmingham "children´s crusade" . I also spent quite a bit of time in India during the late 1960s. My wife and I now live, paradoxically, I suppose, at Lake Chapala and in San Cristóbal da Las Casas, Chiapas, the latter a community in some social turmoil as well. I mention that background because those experiences gave me and are giving me some insight into what may or may not be happening in Mexico these days with palpable injustices practiced blatantly against the large indigenous population of Chiapas, the poorest state in the nation (and many other places as well) . We have lived full time in Mexico for some 14 years and are now Mexican citizens so , what the hell, I may not be even nearly an expert but I have an opinon on this subject no matter how naive my basis.

The reason that Dr. King´s Alabama movement succeeded in many ways is because he discerned the inflexibility of the solidly white governance in Alabama which, in those days, was largely due to the disenfranchisment of the 30% of the state´s population of African heritage, and concentrated his efforts there to demand social justice in that political subdivisión ripe for change. Dr. King knew that morons such as George Wallace and "Bull" Connor were, due to their stubborn intransigence, his unknowing allies in the struggle. 

The real reason that Alabama changed had to do more with business success rather than social justice. When the mostly white powers-that-were in urban centers in Alabama from Huntsville in the north to Mobile on the Gulf, saw that the repulsive "Bull" Connor and Geoge Wallace unrepentant racist pigs were raiding their pockets of precious dollars by making them seem buffoons, they stepped in and everything changed over time. 

The way that Mexico will change, if it can be changed, is to raid the wallets of the oligarchs who rule the country by hurting business opportunities and then, and only then, eyes will be opened. In that sense. the disturbances in the vicinities of the seats of power are not, as suggesting by some, anarchic and self-defeating but strategic intercessions meant to interrupt the old order and, thus, the flow of pesos. Will it work to change ancient. ingrained and inequitable rules of order? Who knows, I have no dog in this fight so it´s not my affair and I am staying well clear of the playing field. . It worked in Alabama and India and many other places. Life on the planet is unclear.


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## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> If Longford actually had Mexican friends and family he would have noticed people here are as as pissed of at those destructive behaviors as you are Longford.


Though Longford doesn't live in Mexico at present, I know that he has lived here in the past for extended periods of time and still has friends here, whom he visits on a regular basis.


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## manuel dexterity

Isla Verde said:


> Though Longford doesn't live in Mexico at present, I know that he has lived here in the past for extended periods of time and still has friends here, whom he visits on a regular basis.


Are you sure about the "friends" part?


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## lhpdiver

manuel dexterity said:


> Are you sure about the "friends" part?


I'm not a moderator - but you should turn your computer off and go for a long walk in the fresh air.


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## Isla Verde

lhpdiver said:


> I'm not a moderator - but you should turn your computer off and go for a long walk in the fresh air.



I am a moderator and I second your advice, lhpdiver.


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## Hound Dog

_


lhpdiver said:



I'm not a moderator - but you should turn your computer off and go for a long walk in the fresh air.

Click to expand...

_Now, hold on for a minute, please. I do no wish to toot Manual Dexterity´s horn as he can speak for himseld and somewhat effusively in my experience over the past 14 years as I pranced about these various fórums from time to time. antagonizing and (hopefully) occasionally entertaning others. with often snotty repartee. Unless I am mistaken, Manuel has been both my protagonist but mostlly my antagonost over all that time and under several different monikers and I appreciate his participation here. He _*IS *_the fresh air around here whose intellect and articulation are exceeded only by the Dawg´s skills in the same arts. Don´t be chasing him off or we could end up with another facile _Chapala Lakeside Insider _fórum the only value of which is to help the correspondent locate a bus to Jocopetec.

I should opint out that I also like Longford´s posts in general hereabouts even with that oak tree sized chip on his/her shoulder wieghing him/her down. Fórums benefit from clowns such as us´ns. once in a while


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## manuel dexterity

lhpdiver said:


> I'm not a moderator - but you should turn your computer off and go for a long walk in the fresh air.


Actually I just came in shortly before I posted that. Spent about 3 hours in the glorious sunshine in Barra de Navidad with a pressure washer wand in my hand cleaning this rainy season's crop of mildew off the exterior masonry and brick work. 

Maybe you could heed your own advice and go look for a sense of humor?


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## Isla Verde

Let's all keep Forum Rule #1 in mind: Please treat others here the way you wish to be treated, with respect, and without insult or personal attack. 

Thanking all forum members in advance for your cooperation.


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## manuel dexterity

My daughter called today. She lives in Europe. Said she feels ashamed to tell people she is from Mexico. The Iguala massacre continues to get heavily reported. Some compared Mexico with Nigeria and many highly critical of the government and lack of human rights. Many skeptical about how the bodies were disposed of etc. And people talking about possible European boycotts of the country and visiting instead the Carribean, Florida or other tropical destinations.


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## Hound Dog

_


manuel dexterity said:



My daughter called today. She lives in Europe. Said she feels ashamed to tell people she is from Mexico. The Iguala massacre continues to get heavily reported. Some compared Mexico with Nigeria and many highly critical of the government and lack of human rights. Many skeptical about how the bodies were disposed of etc. And people talking about possible European boycotts of the country and visiting instead the Carribean, Florida or other tropical destinations.

Click to expand...

_ No question, Manuel, that Mexico is, at present, unstable in many ways. I suggest as alternatives, the Dominican Republic, Haití, Jamaica, Puerto Rico, Venezuela, Colombia. Panama and you name it. If the Caribbean and Latin America don´t beckon, may I suggest the autonomous state of Zanzíbar where I nearly got my head shot off simply for _looking _at the presidential Palace in Zanzibar Town or maybe you´d like to hear of my encounter with rebels in Uganda or Dar es Salaam,Tanzani. This ain´t the worst place Dawg has ever ventured into - I promise you. 

I know you are a fan of Mexico in many ways. I admire your taste.


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## Isla Verde

Hound Dog said:


> No question, Manuel, that Mexico is, at present, unstable in many ways. I suggest as alternatives, the Dominican Republic, Haití, Jamaica, Puerto Rico, Venezuela, Colombia. Panama and you name it.


If anyone is thinking of moving to the República Bolivariana de Venezuela, they'd better bring a along tons of toilet paper!


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## Justina

I believe there is also a high incidence of kidnappings in Venezuela but just not reported too much. Probably more important than toilet paper if you are at the receiving end. There are also lots of other shortages and long queues when people hear that the local super has whatever. It reminds me of Soviet Russia where Russians would join a queue and then ask what was on sale.


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos

LA Times opinion pages today:

By RUBÉN MARTÍNEZ

Mexico is on the brink, and America is largely oblivious.

The violent disappearance of 43 students from the Ayotzinapa teachers college in Guerrero state has caused a political earthquake the likes of which Mexico has not seen in generations — perhaps even since the revolution of 1910.

That makes it all the more baffling how little attention most people in the U.S. have paid to the unfolding tragedy. To understand the historical significance — and the moral and political gravity — of what is occurring, think of 9/11, of Sandy Hook, of the day JFK was assassinated. Mexico is a nation in shock — horrified, pained, bewildered.

Mexico reels, and the U.S. looks away - LA Times


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## Hound Dog

Meritorious-MasoMenos said:


> LA Times opinion pages today:
> 
> By RUBÉN MARTÍNEZ
> 
> Mexico is on the brink, and America is largely oblivious.
> 
> The violent disappearance of 43 students from the Ayotzinapa teachers college in Guerrero state has caused a political earthquake the likes of which Mexico has not seen in generations — perhaps even since the revolution of 1910.
> 
> That makes it all the more baffling how little attention most people in the U.S. have paid to the unfolding tragedy. To understand the historical significance — and the moral and political gravity — of what is occurring, think of 9/11, of Sandy Hook, of the day JFK was assassinated. Mexico is a nation in shock — horrified, pained, bewildered.
> 
> Mexico reels, and the U.S. looks away - LA Times


[/QUOTE]

On the other hand, countless Central Americans have been slaughtered in Mexico and no one seems to notice. Lawlessness, chaos and the slaughter of innocents doesn´t seem to matter as long as the victims are from Honduras, Guatemala or El Salvador. All of a sudden. Mexicans awake to this unimaginable tragedy when the victims are their own kind. I remember this sort of crap from the Alabama I grew up in in the 1950s. If the victims were African American their disappearance was of no consequence, on the other hand, if the victims were European Americans, the howls of anguish could be heard all the way to God´s supposed realm in the clouds.

Exquisite hypocrisy.

What I love more than anything is that, in searching for the students, locals came upon mass grave after mass grave of unknowns out in the woods of which they claimed to formerly be unaware. This is a great tragedy which has aspects of high humor. 

I doubt they will ever identify any of these people nor do they desire to identify them for any number of reasons. The book wiill soon be closed as it always is here and nothing will have been accomplished.

Perhaps the creation of humans has not been God´s highest achievement.


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## ojosazules11

Hound Dog said:


> On the other hand, countless Central Americans have been slaughtered in Mexico and no one seems to notice. Lawlessness, chaos and the slaughter of innocents doesn´t seem to matter as long as the victims are from Honduras, Guatemala or El Salvador. All of a sudden. Mexicans awake to this unimaginable tragedy when the victims are their own kind. I remember this sort of crap from the Alabama I grew up in in the 1950s. If the victims were African American their disappearance was of no consequence, on the other hand, if the victims were European Americans, the howls of anguish could be heard all the way to God´s supposed realm in the clouds.
> 
> Exquisite hypocrisy.
> 
> What I love more than anything is that, in searching for the students, locals came upon mass grave after mass grave of unknowns out in the woods of which they claimed to formerly be unaware. This is a great tragedy which has aspects of high humor.
> 
> I doubt they will ever identify any of these people nor do they desire to identify them for any number of reasons. The book wiill soon be closed as it always is here and nothing will have been accomplished.
> 
> Perhaps the creation of humans has not been God´s highest achievement.


I agree with you about the plight of Central Americans traversing Mexico and the horrors they face. I'm sure plenty of unmarked graves in Mexico contain Central American bodies. 

But I do not think that the reason Mexicans are mobilizing en masse now when they haven't before is because these are their "own kind", given that most of the tens of thousands of others killed or disappeared in the past several years were also "puro mexicano". I see this latest incident as the straw that broke the camel's back, or perhaps the log that broke the dam, unleashing years of pent-up anger, anguish and feelings of helplessness/ hopelessness seeing the country spiral into lawlessness. There have been individuals and groups which have attempted to speak out or take action in the past, but in doing so they put themselves in the line of fire. How many decent mayors have been killed for not playing the game? How many journalists have been silenced for telling the truth?

(Here's some links to articles about a couple of mayors assassinated in 2012 & 2013 - interestingly both were physicians turned politicians.)

Outspoken mayor from Mexico's Michoacan state found dead - Los Angeles Times
María Santos Gorrostieta | The Economist
María Santos Gorrostieta Salazar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think the difference today is that there is a critical mass and there is a certain safety in numbers. As one sign proclaimed - "There is not a fosa big enough to silence us all." I hope this signals a turning point, and that it doesn't end up "blowing over" with people becoming more cynical or indifferent and further inured to the violence.


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## Hound Dog

And the music goes round and round.

Once those Savadoreans get to Los Angeles and complete their basic training in unspeakable violence, they are deported back to San Salvador to wreak havoc in their native land. Muchas gracias, Ronald Reagan, Richard Nixion and Bill Clinton with training funded by U.S. taxpayers. Then, inevitably, the drugs go north and the guns go south. Ultimately destroying civilty in both places.


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## coondawg

I remember my 7th grade Spanish teacher( in 1957) saying that the only hope for Mexico and its people lay in a revolution, but sadly many would die. A whole bunch continue to die, and still no hope for Mexico. And so continues Mexico.


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## Hound Dog

coondawg said:


> I remember my 7th grade Spanish teacher( in 1957) saying that the only hope for Mexico and its people lay in a revolution, but sadly many would die. A whole bunch continue to die, and still no hope for Mexico. And so continues Mexico.


Sadly well said, CD. This is still my adpted home country and will remain so as long as I survive. Fabulous places almost always seem to be torn around the edges.


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## GARYJ65

Luckily for all of us, that was just an opinion of a teacher


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## Longford

> *Uganda Priest Identified as one of the Bodies in Guerrero Fosa *
> 
> The Catholic priest who disappeared in April, was found in a Guerrero fosa (clandestine grave), and buried with six other bodies. The discovery was made a week ago in the search for the 43 missing normalistas students. ... *It is believed that the priest was executed after he refused to baptize the daughter of a local narco leader*.


Source: Borderland Beat: Uganda Priest Identified as one of the Bodies in Guerrero Fosa


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## Hound Dog

_


Longford said:



Source: Borderland Beat: Uganda Priest Identified as one of the Bodies in Guerrero Fosa

Click to expand...

_Interesting how they can identify the corpse of a priest from Uganda but not one of the rotting corpses in the mass graves from just up the Street here in Mexico. This is a sad commentary on human nature. Dawg lived in Kampala for some six months in the 1960s when Milton Obote was running the country before Idi Amin took over. At that time they were expelling all the Asian residents (mostly from East India and mostly successful merchants) and confiscating their properties leaving them destitute and forced to emigrate to India or England - penniless and welcome in neither place. Back in those days, Uganda had some of the best Indian restaurants in the world in a country almost totally lacking in sophisticated culinary arts but that´s just a little aside from an Indian food freak. 

The African born Ugandans had already expelled most of the White Brits and deeply resented the East Indians who had been brought into East Africa to help construct the East Africa Railways from Dar Es Salaam and Mombasa to Kampala with the main railway interchange at the newly conceived British colonial town of Nairobi a previously unknown place on the high Kenyan Plain. After the East Indian indentured servants (AKA slaves) finished their tasks building the East African Railway system, they were free to become the highly succesful merchants they later became and acquired great wealth in the process much to the chagrin of many other East Africans who then through govermental malfeasance confiscated everything they had accumulated over many years by stealing it and slaughtering those who did not leave or acquiesce. Welcome to the human race. 

Enough of that. Milton Obote was a corrupt despot but Idi Amin, who came after him, at least temporarily, was a mass killer of the most despicable type. Uganda is one of the most beautuful places on earth and Idi Amin turned it into a mass killing field.

I couldn´t do anything about this so I moved to San Francisco.


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## Longford

Hound Dog said:


> Interesting how they can identify the corpse of a priest from Uganda but not one of the rotting corpses in the mass graves from just up the Street here in Mexico.


The article I linked mentioned that the Priest's identification was made possible, or easier, because he'd been undergoing dental work about the time he was kidnapped/killed and that dental records aided in the identification. Cause of death was said to be a shot to the head. I'm thinking the bodies of Priest and those others found in the same grave were not burned as has been alleged in the case of the 43 students at Iguala.


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## ojosazules11

Here is a link to an article in La Jornada in reference to families of missing/disappeared persons from all over Mexico, who are establishing a "biobank" of genetic samples, along with details, if available, about when, where and how their loved ones went missing. Actually "went missing" is too bland and innocuous a term for such a horror. "Were disappeared" May sound awkward in English, but it is a better translation, as it indicates action and intent by a third party against the victim. The genetic material will be in the care of international agencies and laboratories, which to me speaks volumes about the current deep mistrust of Mexican governmental agencies.

The article is in Spanish.
La Jornada: Construyen familiares de desaparecidos registro nacional genético de víctimas


I think this quote, from a mother whose son disappeared on his way to a wedding in 2008, gets to the heart of the current outrage: "With much respect and affection for the 43 students and their families, but it is necessary to insist that they are the drop which caused the glass to overflow. Behind the case of Ayotzinapa, lamentably, there are more than 24 thousand disappeared." 

The 43 students and their families are important in their own right, but they are also the symbol and focal point for so much pent-up anger, grief, and indignation about all the estimated 24,000 disappeared and 85,000 killed, the complicity of many levels of government with organized crime, ongoing impunity and failure to bring those responsible to justice, etc. etc. So, yes, it is about the 43 students. And yes, it is about all the rest of it. The glass is more than overflowing.


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## coondawg

It will never happen, but does anyone here believe that if a U.N. force was permitted to enter Mexico to "root out" the bad guys, they could really make a difference?


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## GARYJ65

coondawg said:


> It will never happen, but does anyone here believe that if a U.N. force was permitted to enter Mexico to "root out" the bad guys, they could really make a difference?


Why don't they try that in the US first?


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## coondawg

GARYJ65 said:


> Why don't they try that in the US first?


Can we stay on Mexico here? The US is not having these types of problems that we are discussing here.


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## GARYJ65

coondawg said:


> Can we stay on Mexico here? The US is not having these types of problems that we are discussing here.


Would you like to make a list?


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## GARYJ65

manuel dexterity said:


> My daughter called today. She lives in Europe. Said she feels ashamed to tell people she is from Mexico. The Iguala massacre continues to get heavily reported. Some compared Mexico with Nigeria and many highly critical of the government and lack of human rights. Many skeptical about how the bodies were disposed of etc. And people talking about possible European boycotts of the country and visiting instead the Carribean, Florida or other tropical destinations.


What part of Europe she lives in?
I bet that they have a history too
In any case, if she feels ashamed to tell anyone she is Mexican, she could say anything else.
Germans don't have a history on breaking human rights? What about Belgium, England, etc, etc etc etc
Come on! This is a rough time we are living, but it does not picture what Mexico is like


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> Come on! This is a rough time we are living, but it does not picture what Mexico is like


Mexico is going through more than a rough time, more like a time of national crisis. Right now this is what Mexico is like - a country of wonderful people but riddled with corruption, violence and a lack of the rule of law.


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## regwill

GARYJ65 said:


> Would you like to make a list?


There is no need to make a list Like I tell my friends NOB , Mexico and the US have problems as countries , its just that some of the problems are different . 

p.s. When I am in Mexico , I stay in Neza or Ecatepec .


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## coondawg

Isla Verde said:


> Mexico is going through more than a rough time, more like a time of national crisis. Right now this is what Mexico is like - a country of wonderful people but riddled with corruption, violence and a lack of the rule of law.


And, Mexico needs help now. So, even though no one will ever listen to what we say here about what might help Mexico, why can't we at least discuss possibilities without people feeling they have to defend Mexico "to the death"? Certainly no one can deny that Mexico will not solve these problems on their own, or it would have made progress over the last 12 years. Things just keep getting worse, in spite of EPN "not talking about it". Remember, we made the decision to live here too, even if we were not born here.


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## Hound Dog

_


Isla Verde said:



Mexico is going through more than a rough time, more like a time of national crisis. Right now this is what Mexico is like - a country of wonderful people but riddled with corruption, violence and a lack of the rule of law.

Click to expand...

_The Alabama I grew up in, a U.S. during he 1940s and 1950s a state with, in those days, a population of some 3.5 Million people, was also a place of (generally) wonderful people but riddled with corruption, violence and racial oppression. My family and the teachers and pastors, mostly of European ancestry who schooled me, the 50% of the community in which I was raised of African heritage and also schooled me, were also generally decent people and there was a strict adherence to the "rule of law". It seems to me that the Germany of the 1930s when the Nazis rose to power and today´s Mexico opérate or operated inder the "rule of law" as well. I guess the "rule of law as a civilizing influence has to do with who is making the rule and "civility" is in the eyes of the beholder.


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## AlanMexicali

https://www.facebook.com/Desinformemonos?fref=photo

List updated of nearly 115 cities for Mexico and the world that can be added to this 20 November, the day of global action for ayotzinapa

1. - zócalo, DF, they will arrive at zócalo the 3 wagon de la brigade National parents normalistas and students that are touring the country
Angel, 5, pm, tlatelolco and the moon. Revolution, 6, pm
2. - Kansas, I, consulate in Mexico in 10, am
3. - Dallas, I, consulate of Mexico, 5, pm
4. - Los Angeles, USA, placita Olvera to the consulate of Mexico, 4, pm
5. - Minnesota, I, Murphy Square park, 4, pm
6. - Washington, USA, 2132 3er Avenue Seattle, 10, am
7. - Toulouse: 20 Nov to the 12 H4 5 appointment in the output of Palais of Justice, and dresses in black ' une prise de picture issued une prise de conscience '
8. - San Antonio, TX 20 Nov. At 11 am.
9. - Madrid, 11 am parking faculty of Sciences, political and Sociology, UCM somosaguas
9a.- Madrid, 18:30 000 hrs a sleep. Subway Callao
10. - Monterrey n.l. 5 pm on the square of the purísima, certainly be allocated among Hidalgo. And the Father Mier CORNER with Seraph punishment point of completion: Plaza de los missing, certainly be allocated in Washington and Zaragoza, where there is also will perform an act of artistic display.
11. - Toronto, Canada, 7:30, pm, consulate of Mexico,
12. - orlandoooo, Florida, 2:30, pm, consulate
13. - 19 November 12:30 Kings College students ' Bond ( kclsu ) in London, United UK
14. - guadalajara moving, 18:00, park Red - Revolution in guadalajara moving
15. - Barcelona, 18:30, 1400 Boulevard René - Lévesque EST, Montreal h2l 2m2
16. - Tijuana, 5:30, pm, a monument to cuauhtémoc
17. - Guayaquil, Ecuador, 4:30 p, Plaza San Francisco
18. - Santa Ana, CA. I, 4, pm, consulate Mexican
19. - barkeley CA 11:30 am time of the Pacific City Hall at UC barkeley.
20. - san Francisco CA 4 pm time of the Pacific on the ferry building towards Powell station....
21. - rome: 18:00 hours in Piazza immediately cinque Lune in Rome
( a 70 metres of Piazza navona )
22. - Houston, USA, 11 am 4539 San Jacinto, St
23. - cancún, 18, fasting for jetty tamajar
24. - Stockholm in segelstorg, Stockholm, at 16.00 o'clock.
25. - Munich, Germany, 13:00, the point of departure tentativo is odeonsplatz and then leave together in order to reach stachus.
26. - San Salvador, El Salvador, 8, am, Divine Savior of the world
27. - Las Vegas ; EU 16:00, 823 s.6th St. Consulate Mexican in Las Vegas, Nevada
28. - New York City, Nov, 20, 3pm, consulate Mexican
29. - Durango, dgo. 10 am, we aglomeramos in the garden of San Antonio, for there to begin the March to arrive at the square of arms
30. - San Luis potosí, Square of weapons, 1, pm
31. - guadalajara moving 18 fasting for Park Red at the palace Federal
32. - tlaxcala, 16, fasting for escalinatas
33. - Santiago, Chile,! 8:00 hours, with regard to the usach. Av Bernard o´higgins and matucana
34. - Valencia, on 21 November, 19 hours. Consulate in Mexico in Valencia, Spain
Marches Regional in chiapas, in 9, am
35. - Tuxtla Gutiérrez
36. - St Christopher's houses,
37. - comitán,
38. - ocosingo,
39. - tapachula,
40. - palenque,
41. - pichucalco,
42. - Tila,
43. - motozintla,
44. - karrantza,
45. - Villaflores
46. - Seattle, WA., Consulate of Mexico, 12:30, pm
47. - celaya 17:00 garden principal in celaya
48. - turret there., coah., It will be a way, to quote in the Crow Square that in this city club on the boulevard revolution on the 12 of the day
49. - poza rich, 4, OM, watch the 20
50. - irapuato 2 pm rite flag
51. - Pittsburgh PA Center for American studies 20 and 21 November
52. - turret there.. On 20 November 2014... 12 HS exit in front of the hotel CROWN PLAZA ( where was the estuatua of caballito )
53. - Dallas, 5 pm consulate Mexican
54. - the Chicago 6 pm on the 18, and blue Island until the arc in the villita
55. - Paris place de la république in Paris at the basis of 18 H
56. - beach - Carmen, Square, 28 July 18, fasting for
57. - Washington, the White House in 6, pm
58. - Saltillo 16:30 Institute of Technology in saltillo a square tlaxcala
59. - puebla, 10:00 City College buap
60. - the Chicago 6 pm Millennium Park
61. - Chihuahua, Chih., In the square of The angel held the students of the Faculty of Medicine.
62. - tulancingo, kiosko garden la Floresta, zocalo of the city. There is a lack of time
New Zealand
63. - Auckland,
64. - Wellington and
65. - Christchurch in New Zealand, 8pm watches! In the middle of every town!
66. - ixmiquilpan 10 am in the commercial Mexican
67. - Raleigh, I 19 November, the ( S ), 10:00,
431 Raleigh, I, Raleigh View Road,, nnc 27610 Wednesday 19 November 10:00 to 19:00,

68. - Redwood City, CA 6, 45 pm on the road to real and Jefferson Ave., By the Old Navy's own regulations.
69. - pachuca, Hidalgo., Ward 1 to 5 P. M
70. - San Antonio, TX 127 Navarro, St. 11 am, consulate
71. - matehuala, slp 19:30 park álvaro obregon.
72. - aguascalientes Jue 20 18:00, fasting for the glorieta from Don Quixote to the square of arms
73. - Bern, Switzerland. 19:00 hrs a sleep. In front of the casinoplatz
74. - LAWRENCE KANSAS USA, 12:30, pm, 1204 Oread Ave 66044. ECM at KU.
75. - off. 4:00 pm faculty of Sciences chemical the Ultraviolet.
76. - in progress ( yucatán ), 7:00 park morelos
77. - Querétaro exit from several points in order to arrive at the monument to the flag 3 PM ( See poster in the comments below )
78. - saltlakecity to the consulate and at the city, country, 5, pm
79. - san Jose, Costa Rica, 9, am, consulate
80. - Toronto ; 21 November, Vigil in the consulate Mexican in 7:00, p.m.
81. - San Luis potosi 17:00 Square weapons in the San Luis potosí
82. - Dolores Hidalgo., guanajuato 6 pm, a monument to the flag at the jardón principal of pain
83. - Indianapolis, 6pm, at the center of Indianapolis
84. - Santa faith of the lagoon michoacán, Road state Mexico - guadalajara moving from today, 17 indefinitely.
85. - Lima, Peru, 7, pm, park, Washington, cdra 5 av arequipa
86. - Tampico - madero, Tamaulipas, Mexico. The technology of madero Hasta La Plaza weapons in Tampico.
87. - Austin, TX, 18:00, monkeywrench books in Austin
88. - Vancouver, Canada, 4, 00 pm at the art gallery ( Robson St ). Coast Salish territory,
89. - ecatepec, caravan in support for the normalistas of ayotzinapa, Metro CD. Azteca at 16:00 hrs a sleep.
90. - Miami, I, 5pm in the consulate
91. - puebla, 10, am, cu, medicine, AV you
92. - Guatemala, 6, pm, emabajada de mexico
Australia, see poster below in comments:
93. - canderra
94. - Brisbane95. - to Sydney again
96. - Melbourne
97. - Adelaide
98. - Perth
99. - Darwin
100. - Hobart
101. - Arizona. This 20 and 21 November to patir of the 3:00 p.m. 7:00 p.m. protest and the 22 Nov. With an event cultural in the parking lot to the consulate after 12:00 of the day a 4:00 p.m.manifestación in solidarity and support for our brothers and sisters in the fight for the call to the Mexican government presentation of the 43 missing ayotzinapa.
Contacts: Santy ' The andariego ' ( 602 ), 475, 4515 and Gregorio ( 602 ), 570, 8176 consulate General of Mexico in phoenix3 20 e McDowell Rd, Phoenix, Arizona 85004

102. - Seattle, consulate of Mexico, 12:30, fasting for
103. - Geneva, Switzerland, 12:30 uni mail University of Geneva 1205 genève
104. - Sonora, Square of bientenario, 5, pm
105. - Berlin, Germany, 22:00, NEU West Berlin, köpenicker Straße 55, 10179 Berlin
106. - #Tampico 5:00 pm ejecito and av. Hidalgo.
107. - Manzanillo, 16 000 hrs a sleep, high school number 8
108. - tetela the Volcano, 2 pm proceed from the arc
109. - Santa Ana ca. At Cabrillo park to the consulate Mexican, 4:00 p.m.
110. - tapachula, 4, pm, glorieta of bonanaza a forecourt of the palace
111. - Medellín, colombia, 6:30, park Bicentennial ( plantón front to the museum from memory )
112. - Miami, 5 pm consulate

113. - Tijuana, 9 am in the park Simon bolívar
114. - Morelia UNAM, Campus Morelia, several activities, the big deal about checking poster down
115. - Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA. November 20, th, and 12:00-1:30 - ayotzinapa day of solidarity on behalf of Human Rights - action Global by ayotzinapa. University of New Mexico in front of bookstore
116. Gothenburg, Sweden, at 12 o'clock in the Faculty of Humanities in the University of Gothenburg


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## Isla Verde

Regarding the list Alan has posted of cities where there will be demonstrations tomorrow, what good will any of it do, I wonder.


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## coondawg

Isla Verde said:


> Regarding the list Alan has posted of cities where there will be demonstrations tomorrow, what good will any of it do, I wonder.


Sadly, none.


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## AlanMexicali

Isla Verde said:


> Regarding the list Alan has posted of cities where there will be demonstrations tomorrow, what good will any of it do, I wonder.


It´s really hard to say at this point. Hopefully it will put enough pressure on the federal gov´t. to resolve the case and punish those reponsible for the tragic events that is in the Worldwide media. It does have a lot of momentum now. The World is watching closely to see what will be the final outcome. It won´t go away by itself, I feel.


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## Longford

Isla Verde said:


> Regarding the list Alan has posted of cities where there will be demonstrations tomorrow, what good will any of it do, I wonder.


I was surprised by how little coverage of the protests there was on the late evening (after 10 p.m.) Televisa news this evening. There seemed to be more time devoted to the President's release of personal financial information. No doubt, though, that the demonstrations continue to move away from the solely about the 51 in Iguala to complaints about corruption, crime, kidnapping and general upset with life in Mexico. Demonstrations in Mexico City are what hold the most importance, not ones held elsewhere.


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## GARYJ65

Longford said:


> I was surprised by how little coverage of the protests there was on the late evening (after 10 p.m.) Televisa news this evening. There seemed to be more time devoted to the President's release of personal financial information. No doubt, though, that the demonstrations continue to move away from the solely about the 51 in Iguala to complaints about corruption, crime, kidnapping and general upset with life in Mexico. Demonstrations in Mexico City are what hold the most importance, not ones held elsewhere.


Of course there was less coverage on that.
Televisa is the former company of our first lady, the one that allegedly payed her 80 plus million pesos, the one company that handled Enrique Peña's campaign
That company is absolutely sold to the government


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## Longford

Longford said:


> Demonstrations in Mexico City are what hold the most importance, not ones held elsewhere.


The routes of protests scheduled for tomorrow in Mexico City are illustrated in this newspaper article:

El Universal - DF - Estudiantes y organizaciones alistan movilizaciones del 20 de Noviembre

The city is accustomed to protests, many of them large. 50,000, 100,000+ ... they're not all that rare over the years. The largest previous protest I'm aware of in the D.F. is the approx. 1 million who marched in response to kidnappings in the D.F., maybe a decade ago. A million people typically gather in the Zocalo for the Fiestas Patrias each year. Even if a November 20th protest draws 1 million or more participants ... the country is so very corrupt, including probably millions of average citizens who benefit personally from the corruption ... I don't see what if anything will change as a result (of the protests). I hope I'm wrong about that.


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## Justina

*Protests*



Longford said:


> The routes of protests scheduled for tomorrow in Mexico City are illustrated in this newspaper article:
> 
> El Universal - DF - Estudiantes y organizaciones alistan movilizaciones del 20 de Noviembre
> 
> The city is accustomed to protests, many of them large. 50,000, 100,000+ ... they're not all that rare over the years. The largest previous protest I'm aware of in the D.F. is the approx. 1 million who marched in response to kidnappings in the D.F., maybe a decade ago. A million people typically gather in the Zocalo for the Fiestas Patrias each year. Even if a November 20th protest draws 1 million or more participants ... the country is so very corrupt, including probably millions of average citizens who benefit personally from the corruption ... I don't see what if anything will change as a result (of the protests). I hope I'm wrong about that.


It is not so much the protests that will change things as the President's response to the demos. He seems to be losing patience which is a mistake and the cackhanded response of those supposing looking for the bodies or hopefully still alive ones is also contributing to the widespread unrest.
Re the wife's new home, as one journalist said on Monday, what would be the reaction of the Americans if it was discovered that Michelle had bought herself an expensive home via her husband's business contacts. There would be an uproar.


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## ojosazules11

Isla Verde said:


> Regarding the list Alan has posted of cities where there will be demonstrations tomorrow, what good will any of it do, I wonder.


I'm not going to suggest we can change the world through protest marches, but I do think they raise awareness and shine a light on things which vested interests would rather keep in the shadows. International awareness and solidarity also provide a measure of protection to those mobilizing for change in Mexico. It's harder for a government to come down heavy handed when they know the world is watching.

Of course those who are another significant power in Mexico and the source of most of the violence have no accountability or international relations to worry about. That's the elephant in this room. I hope that the protests and mass mobilizations can at least cause some cracks in the complicity between the gov't and organized crime.


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## AlanMexicali

Justina said:


> It is not so much the protests that will change things as the President's response to the demos. He seems to be losing patience which is a mistake and the cackhanded response of those supposing looking for the bodies or hopefully still alive ones is also contributing to the widespread unrest.
> Re the wife's new home, as one journalist said on Monday, what would be the reaction of the Americans if it was discovered that Michelle had bought herself an expensive home via her husband's business contacts. There would be an uproar.


She went on TV on Tuesday night and explained in detail about her financial relationship with Televisa her house and the large house next door. I watched it on YouTube via American cable channel Univisión.

Angélica Rivera de Peña difundió pruebas sobre la Casa Blanca de las Lomas - Univision Los Angeles

More on this story in English.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/20/w...n-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=1


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## AlanMexicali

ojosazules11 said:


> I'm not going to suggest we can change the world through protest marches, but I do think they raise awareness and shine a light on things which vested interests would rather keep in the shadows. International awareness and solidarity also provide a measure of protection to those mobilizing for change in Mexico. It's harder for a government to come down heavy handed when they know the world is watching.
> 
> Of course those who are another significant power in Mexico and the source of most of the violence have no accountability or international relations to worry about. That's the elephant in this room. I hope that the protests and mass mobilizations can at least cause some cracks in the complicity between the gov't and organized crime.


It will be interesting to see if the all the cartels lay low for awhile in the event they might end up as the Guerrero based cartel and in deep waters they might no be able to swim out of. 

The PRD have taken a definate blow to their reputation from all the recent disclosures in Guerrero.

The more public officials that have been arrested over the years for embezzlement of public funds and fraud the more others might not want to take the risk. It really depends on how all these pending cases are sorted out. IMO


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## Longford

GARYJ65 said:


> Of course there was less coverage on that.
> Televisa is the former company of our first lady, the one that allegedly payed her 80 plus million pesos, the one company that handled Enrique Peña's campaign
> That company is absolutely sold to the government


What I thought was a lack of coverage, or lack of importance attached to protests and detailed coverage of the President’s wife’s home illustrated for me the disjointed focus of the attention of many people in Mexico. Telenovela lifestyles always seem to be of greater interest than real life issues. Mexican Presidents and other high-level officials have for generations profited greatly from their having “served” the people. For the most part, I think that’s why some Mexicans aspire to government positions and employment … starting with the policeman who doesn't have an education beyond secondaria and who, along with his family, sees nothing wrong in demanding mordidas to Presidents who launch tourism projects after they and their close-knit group of friends have already either purchased large tracts of property or have options to do so going forward. 




Justina said:


> It is not so much the protests that will change things as the President's response to the demos. He seems to be losing patience which is a mistake and the cackhanded response of those supposing looking for the bodies or hopefully still alive ones is also contributing to the widespread unrest.
> Re the wife's new home, as one journalist said on Monday, what would be the reaction of the Americans if it was discovered that Michelle had bought herself an expensive home via her husband's business contacts. There would be an uproar.





ojosazules11 said:


> I'm not going to suggest we can change the world through protest marches, but I do think they raise awareness and shine a light on things which vested interests would rather keep in the shadows. International awareness and solidarity also provide a measure of protection to those mobilizing for change in Mexico. It's harder for a government to come down heavy handed when they know the world is watching.


I’m a strong supporter of peaceful protests, acts of civil disobedience and believe … and know from personal participation in such events in the USA and Canada that they can be powerful tools/tactics … when integrated into a plan which has specific reachabale goals. I don’t think most Mexicans understand these measures and that because the current protests have broadened to issues beyond the Tixtla students they lack focus and realistic goals. As for the issue of the President’s wife and “her” new home and “what if” Michelle Obama has made a similar purchase: people in power always use their influence for personal gain and it’s the responsibility of a free press to shed light on these things so that the public can learn of them and react appropriately. 25 years ago we never would have seen reports about the Mexican President’s wife and the family’s financial dealings. The change came when the Vicente Fox of the PAN was elected President and continued through the 6-years of President Calderon. There’s no putting the jeanie back in the bottle.



ojosazules11 said:


> Of course those who are another significant power in Mexico and the source of most of the violence have no accountability or international relations to worry about. That's the elephant in this room. I hope that the protests and mass mobilizations can at least cause some cracks in the complicity between the gov't and organized crime.


Yes, the “elephant” is the cartels, the domestic terrorists … and let’s not forget the drug addicts and substance abusers in the USA who provide the money which in large part funds the war and criminal activities which have now expanded throughout Mexican society. I don’t see how much will change in the country as long as the cartels have so much influence. The end to corruption begins in the home … and I understand that “Just Say No” is easy to write on a web forum but very different to adhere in real life situations.


----------



## Hound Dog

Well thought out comments, Longford. I would add that the drug money flowing north funds the weaponry heading south. The drugs and guns both destabilize North America. U.S. interference with the drug trade through the Caribbean from Colombia helped neither the U.S. nor Mexico nor, for that matter Colombia nor the Caribbean. Perhaps this is an oversimplification since it´s possible the Mexican cartels would have interceded anyway over time rather than play second fiddle to the South Americans.


----------



## red mcmurphy

Longford is very much mistaken to claim that the financial excesses of former Presidents did not receive any attention. Jose Lopez Portillo's wife, Carmen Romano, was infamous for her shopping trips to New York and Paris aboard the Presidential airplane. She was dubbed the "queen of nepotism". His son was given a plum post in the government and his lover at the time, Rosa Luz Alegria, was made the head of Secretariat of Tourism, a Cabinet level post.. All of this was widely reported, even in the then, heavily controlled by the PRI, press.


----------



## Isla Verde

red mcmurphy said:


> Longford is very much mistaken to claim that the financial excesses of former Presidents did not receive any attention. Jose Lopez Portillo's wife, Carmen Romano, was infamous for her shopping trips to New York and Paris aboard the Presidential airplane. She was dubbed the "queen of nepotism". His son was given a plum post in the government and his lover at the time, Rosa Luz Alegria, was made the head of Secretariat of Tourism, a Cabinet level post.. All of this was widely reported, even in the then, heavily controlled by the PRI, press.


Did media exposure of these scandals do anything to curb them?


----------



## red mcmurphy

Isla Verde said:


> Did media exposure of these scandals do anything to curb them?


The point of my prior post was simply a rebuttal to Longford's claim that there was no media reporting of the excesses of former First Ladies until Fox and Martha Sahagun. There haven't been such excesses by a First Lady since Carmen Romano. Whether that can be attributed to the media is anyone's guess. But the media scrutiny of Angelica Rivera is far from unique.


----------



## Meritorious-MasoMenos

Isla Verde said:


> Did media exposure of these scandals do anything to curb them?


Lopez Portillo had to leave the country for (in)voluntary exile for a few years. It may not have done anything to curb that corruption, because I believe that Salinas de Gortari also had to leave Mexico for a good while after his presidency finished.

There was a firestorm immediately after Lopez Portillo left office (and Mexico), with papers publishing the string of mansions he owned out in a ritzy section of DF or just outside and suddenly, an avalanche of articles on his "minister of tourism' choice and all that she received during his reign and how haughty and useless she was. But the best humiliation he had to suffer, for all who remember that time, came after he vowed to defend the peso "like a dog." He then devalued it multiple times in the final half year of his presidency, and he couldn't walk down the street without irate Mexicans howling like dogs after him. It was pretty funny.


----------



## Isla Verde

When was the last time Mexico had a president to be proud of, or at least not ashamed of? Comments from Mexican forum members would be especially appreciated. Gary, are you around?


----------



## Justina

*Presidents*



Isla Verde said:


> When was the last time Mexico had a president to be proud of, or at least not ashamed of? Comments from Mexican forum members would be especially appreciated. Gary, are you around?


Well, I am not Gary, but I reckon it was Lazaro Cardenas. He was the last of the military men to take power and the first to call for elections on a democratic basis. He was also seen as the saviour when he nationalised the oil which Pena Nieto is now busily privatising. There are well recorded stories of campesinos taking their chickens to wherever and the rich taking their pearls, all to help with the payoff. Unfortunately, his son has never quite convinced anyone that he is a real reformer, but rather a petulant 'junior' who didn't get the crown.
Miguel Aleman however, could get the crown for being the first president to be so outrageously dishonest which set the trend until the present day. He 'bought' all along the prom of Acapulco, suppose that is why it is called Avenida Aleman, and sold it for the horrible condos that dominate it now. He also was the original owner of television etc in a pubescent Mexico. Lots of fascinating history there.


----------



## coondawg

Isla Verde said:


> When was the last time Mexico had a president to be proud of, or at least not ashamed of? Comments from Mexican forum members would be especially appreciated. Gary, are you around?


Ernesto Zedillio Ponce de Leon. I think he turned Mexico around in a positive direction. Mexico really needed a decent President at that time, and they got one (IMHO).


----------



## Justina

*Zedillo*



coondawg said:


> Ernesto Zedillio Ponce de Leon. I think he turned Mexico around in a positive direction. Mexico really needed a decent President at that time, and they got one (IMHO).


I can't believe anyone could mention Zedillo. He became president by default, opened the way to neoliberalism which did no good to the countryside. Sold off the pathetic railway system to the US and lo and behold foundhimself a prime source of income from his benefactors. All those dangly Mexican flags that one finds literally hanging around in the DF was a thank you present to the general that 'looked after him'. I mean a little business for the general.


----------



## coondawg

Justina said:


> I can't believe anyone could mention Zedillo.


 Believe it, because my wife (Mexican Lady from Leon) seems to think he carried them through "tough" times, brought the peso back to strength, and the PRI, who elected him, was so disappointed in him, as he was "different from the herd." She was PAN at that time. She says her family agrees with her, and that's a Whole Bunch.


----------



## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=Justina;5795001]Well, I am not Gary, but I reckon it was Lazaro Cardenas. He was the last of the military men to take power and the first to call for elections on a democratic basis. He was also seen as the saviour when he nationalised the oil which Pena Nieto is now busily privatising. There are well recorded stories of campesinos taking their chickens to wherever and the rich taking their pearls, all to help with the payoff. Unfortunately, his son has never quite convinced anyone that he is a real reformer, but rather a petulant 'junior' who didn't get the crown. iguel Aleman however, could get the crown for being the first president to be so outrageously dishonest which set the trend until the present day. *He 'bought' all along the prom of Acapulco, suppose that is why it is called Avenida Aleman, and sold it for the horrible condos that dominate it now.* He also was the original owner of television etc in a pubescent Mexico. Lots of fascinating history there.[/QUOTE]_ T

That´s happened on every warm seacoast I´ve ever inhabited or visited where transportation and access were available from Alabama to Northwest Florida to Spain to France to you name it. For instance, the Alabama and Northwest Florida coasts, in the 1950s, splenidid sugar white beaches on crystal aquamarine seas desecrated by butt ugly wall-to-wall highrise condos through which those beautiful beaches and seas cannot be observe, the disgrace of much of the coast of Spain by developers which must be seen to be believed and parts of France and on and on. 


The only coast upon which I have resided for any serious length of time that was not desecrated by developers was that in Central and Northern California up through British Columbia where prevailing fogs and cold seas made the beaches unappealing to beach freaks unattracted by equally splendid beaches and wild seas where sweaters and raincoats were the dress of the day. Sr. Aleman was only one player in the game that destroyed so much coastal lands in many developed and developing countries the world over.


----------



## GARYJ65

coondawg said:


> Ernesto Zedillio Ponce de Leon. I think he turned Mexico around in a positive direction. Mexico really needed a decent President at that time, and they got one (IMHO).


Ernesto Zedillo was no good, remember Acteal?


----------



## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> When was the last time Mexico had a president to be proud of, or at least not ashamed of? Comments from Mexican forum members would be especially appreciated. Gary, are you around?


Isla, that is a tough one
I don't know, maybe Benito Juarez?
Reforma laws, separated state from church, got the government back from the invaders

Lazaro Cardenas, I would not say so, he got filthy rich as well, and when he made the oil expropriation, started selling oil to nazi Germany, and then got back to sell to the US...


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## red mcmurphy

Plutarco Elias Calles was the man.


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## coondawg

<snip>

Wasn't he the guy given credit for the creation of what eventually became the PRI ? Nice legacy ! Also, under him wasn't there a lot of repression of Catholics, leading to the Cristero War?


----------



## red mcmurphy

coondawg said:


> Also, under him wasn't there a lot of repression of Catholics, leading to the Cristero War?


They were stringing up _curas_ left and right. Stopped too soon so I only give him a 9 out of 10.


----------



## red mcmurphy

GARYJ65 said:


> Ernesto Zedillo was no good, remember Acteal?


Remember how he mishandled the currency crisis.?Completely inept. Set the country back years.


----------



## coondawg

<snip>

I see what you're say'in. He definitely was a difference maker.


----------



## coondawg

GARYJ65 said:


> Ernesto Zedillo was no good, remember Acteal?


Most don't blame him for that, nor Aguas Blancas, but rather Salinas and PRI people. If anyone ever did anything to provide hope and opportunity for other candidates and other parties in Mexico besides the PRI, it was Ernesto Zedillo. The powers that ruled Mexico for 71 years (maybe 71-6 of Zedillo) were really happy when his 6 years were up, and it took them another 12 years to undo the damage he had done to the PRI. Now, all is back to normal with EPN. Maybe in the last 83 years, Ernesto Zedillo (an economist) is the one who has done the most positive things for the country of Mexico, IMHO. (PRI will disagree, because they blame him for "giving away" the election to Fox and changing election laws that helped other parties. Good for him.  
(Sadly, the other parties (PAN) squandered their Golden Opportunities).


----------



## red mcmurphy

Coondawg, were you living in Mexico during Zedillo's term?


----------



## GARYJ65

coondawg said:


> <snip> Wasn't he the guy given credit for the creation of what eventually became the PRI ? Nice legacy ! Also, under him wasn't there a lot of repression of Catholics, leading to the Cristero War?


Who are we talking about? Juarez?
If so, nothing to do with PRI
Cristero war, different story, I would recommend Jean Mayer's books on the subject


----------



## GARYJ65

coondawg said:


> Most don't blame him for that, nor Aguas Blancas, but rather Salinas and PRI people. If anyone ever did anything to provide hope and opportunity for other candidates and other parties in Mexico besides the PRI, it was Ernesto Zedillo. The powers that ruled Mexico for 71 years (maybe 71-6 of Zedillo) were really happy when his 6 years were up, and it took them another 12 years to undo the damage he had done to the PRI. Now, all is back to normal with EPN. Maybe in the last 83 years, Ernesto Zedillo (an economist) is the one who has done the most positive things for the country of Mexico, IMHO. (PRI will disagree, because they blame him for "giving away" the election to Fox and changing election laws that helped other parties. Good for him.  (Sadly, the other parties (PAN) squandered their Golden Opportunities).


Zedillo did not give away the power to PAN, he was too dumb even to do so
Good economist, he is not, not really. If that were the case, we would have kept him as an advisor


----------



## mnd2014

*News on this subject*

I invite forum members to visit Mexico News Daily (mexiconewsdaily.com) if they would like to stay abreast of news about Iguala/Ayotzinapa.

Tony Richards,
Publisher


----------



## diablita

Isla Verde said:


> When was the last time Mexico had a president to be proud of, or at least not ashamed of? Comments from Mexican forum members would be especially appreciated. Gary, are you around?


Elena Poniatowska: 'As a Mexican, I Am Ashamed'Â |Â Sergio Muñoz Bata

This article is pertinent to the question by Isla Verde and the Iguala situation.


----------



## ojosazules11

diablita said:


> Elena Poniatowska: 'As a Mexican, I Am Ashamed'Â*|Â*Sergio Muñoz Bata
> 
> This article is pertinent to the question by Isla Verde and the Iguala situation.


Excellent article. Thank you for the link.


----------



## Longford

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-chatarrer/605305-dispair-left.html


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## GARYJ65

diablita said:


> Elena Poniatowska: 'As a Mexican, I Am Ashamed'Â |Â Sergio Muñoz Bata This article is pertinent to the question by Isla Verde and the Iguala situation.


Did not like the article
They take as an affirmation that the remains found inthe river were the student's, and that is yet to be proven
Mrs Poniatowska, one has to be careful with her statements, lately she's been too extremist
If she feels ashamed of being Mexican, as we say in Mexico: the door is very wide.


----------



## coondawg

diablita said:


> Elena Poniatowska: 'As a Mexican, I Am Ashamed'Â*|Â*Sergio Muñoz Bata
> 
> This article is pertinent to the question by Isla Verde and the Iguala situation.


Sometimes I wonder if Mexico is really better off now than in 1968.


----------



## TundraGreen

diablita said:


> Elena Poniatowska: 'As a Mexican, I Am Ashamed'Â*|Â*Sergio Muñoz Bata
> 
> This article is pertinent to the question by Isla Verde and the Iguala situation.


Her closing point to the interviewer is that Mexico has to fix the judicial system before anything else can be fixed. I agree.


----------



## GARYJ65

coondawg said:


> Sometimes I wonder if Mexico is really better off now than in 1968.


Wow
It is much much better now


----------



## Longford

GARYJ65 said:


> Zedillo did not give away the power to PAN, he was too dumb even to do so
> Good economist, he is not, not really. If that were the case, we would have kept him as an advisor


Zedillo was a reluctant candidate for President, having been "drafted" by the PRI after it's Presidential candidate, and President-assumed Luis Donaldo Colosio was assassinated in Tijuana while campaigning. Zedillo had been Secretary of Education previously. Zedillo inherited a mess many blame former President Carlos Salinas for and there was a painful devaluation which seemed at the time would wipe-out the middle-class. Had it not been for President Clinton and the U.S. Government assistance to Mexico it's been speculated there would have been civil strife, violence and national financial failure. Some political scientists in Mexico believe Zedillo stopped an election night election theft and that his actions resulted in the Presidency of the PAN's Vicente Fox. Whether Zedillo was as corrupt as other Mexican Presidents have supposedly been ... I'll leave to others to speculate. I personally believe, on balance, he was probably a good man who inherited a situation he never wanted in the first place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_peso_crisis


----------



## GARYJ65

Longford said:


> Zedillo was a reluctant candidate for President, having been "drafted" by the PRI after it's Presidential candidate, and President-assumed Luis Donaldo Colosio was assassinated in Tijuana while campaigning. Zedillo had been Secretary of Education previously. Zedillo inherited a mess many blame former President Carlos Salinas for and there was a painful devaluation which seemed at the time would wipe-out the middle-class. Had it not been for President Clinton and the U.S. Government assistance to Mexico it's been speculated there would have been civil strife, violence and national financial failure. Some political scientists in Mexico believe Zedillo stopped an election night election theft and that his actions resulted in the Presidency of the PAN's Vicente Fox. Whether Zedillo was as corrupt as other Mexican Presidents have supposedly been ... I'll leave to others to speculate. I personally believe, on balance, he was probably a good man who inherited a situation he never wanted in the first place.


That is correct
And, as Secretary of Education he did...just about nothing. Education system is not good


----------



## coondawg

Longford said:


> Zedillo was a reluctant candidate for President, having been "drafted" by the PRI after it's Presidential candidate, and President-assumed Luis Donaldo Colosio was assassinated in Tijuana while campaigning. I personally believe, on balance, he was probably a good man who inherited a situation he never wanted in the first place.
> Mexican peso crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Yes, I think that is a really good description of Zedillo.


----------



## coondawg

GARYJ65 said:


> That is correct
> And, as Secretary of Education he did...just about nothing. Education system is not good


Kinda hard to make any headway when you are there only one year, as was Zedillo. He is certainly not responsibile for the poor Mexican Education System.


----------



## Longford

GARYJ65 said:


> That is correct
> And, as Secretary of Education he did...just about nothing. Education system is not good


Zedillo was Secretary of Education for one-year. I think it's foolish to blame him for the public education system in the country which has, for the most part, for many decades, been considered disgraceful.

Edit: I didn't see coondawg's comments which are about the same as mine before posting, had I, I might have added/subtracted something. There my be reasons to criticize Zedillo .. but his term as Secretary of Education isn't one of them IMO.


----------



## GARYJ65

Longford said:


> Zedillo was Secretary of Education for one-year. I think it's foolish to blame him for the public education system in the country which has, for the most part, for many decades, been considered disgraceful. Edit: I didn't see coondawg's comments which are about the same as mine before posting, had I, I might have added/subtracted something. There my be reasons to criticize Zedillo .. but his term as Secretary of Education isn't one of them IMO.


My comments are nothing foolish, even if he was education secretary for a month, he could have proposed changes, I know I would
Of course he was not to blame for Mexico's educational system, that really would be idiotic.


----------



## ojosazules11

TundraGreen said:


> Her closing point to the interviewer is that Mexico has to fix the judicial system before anything else can be fixed. I agree.


That part and the following excerpt are what I found most helpful - and hopeful - about her reflections:

""I believe the first thing should be to improve the dire situation of the rural teachers schools not only in Ayotzinapa but everywhere in the nation -- to better our educational system because to achieve real democracy, we must educate all Mexicans."
* * *
Improving the Mexican educational system is a must -- and so is reducing the enormous economic disparities that exist in the country -- but I strongly believe that the inconsistent enforcement of the rule of law is next on the list. ...
It will take time to reform the laws and the institutions that are charged with enforcing the rule of law, but there is no other way out of the current nightmare."


----------



## citlali

yes indeed improving the education system is a must. They could close down the rural schools and give real schorlarship to the kids to go to various school that are better to start with. Unfortunately the schorlarship given in many cases are not sufficient for the kids if hey are to live in a place away from home.
I know a kid who was given a schorlarship to go to secondaria 1000 pesos a year. He lives on a dirt road 3 hours from a "decent "school , his parents are farmers with no money. The kid was the brightest of the class and he is now a campesino at age 15. It is really sad,
His cousin is very efeminated and all his peers are making fun of him because he embroiders . He finished secundary but has nowhere to go. He is very talented and I have introduced him to several people that will help him improve his skills and I think he will get out of that incredible isolation and poverty but there are many kids like those two and it is why the rural schools were started to begin with. One way to stop all the leftist propaganda is to give real help to the poorest and give them a decent education. Mexico needs to invest in its future instead of trying to suppress the brightest.

Yes the justice system needs reforming and impunity needs to stop but in my book education needs to be number 1 . With better education accross the board all kinds of reforms will follow. Not sure that it is what the government is really working on..
The incompetent teachers are threatened and are using the unions to hide behind them , some of themi n rural schools epecially are pushing their leftist agenda instead of educating the students . The kids are just a pawn in a political game .


----------



## coondawg

citlali said:


> yes indeed improving the education system is a must.
> 
> Yes the justice system needs reforming and impunity needs to stop but in my book education needs to be number 1 . With better education accross the board all kinds of reforms will follow. Not sure that it is what the government is really working on..
> The incompetent teachers are threatened and are using the unions to hide behind them , some of themi n rural schools epecially are pushing their leftist agenda instead of educating the students . The kids are just a pawn in a political game .


Well said, C.

It is much easier for the government to "control" the masses when they are poorly educated. Much smaller "middle class of informed voters".


----------



## Longford

coondawg said:


> Well said, C.
> 
> It is much easier for the government to "control" the masses when they are poorly educated. Much smaller "middle class of informed voters".


It's an easy and deserving target, much of the time ... but not just the "government" of Mexico and vested political interests benefit from an uneducated/under-educated population. Other segments of society do, as well.


----------



## coondawg

Longford said:


> It's an easy and deserving target, much of the time ... but not just the "government" of Mexico and vested political interests benefit from an uneducated/under-educated population. Other segments of society do, as well.


Excellent post, L.


I have seen wife's relatives taken advantage of often, simply because they do not have the critical thinking skills needed to realize that they are paying way too much for an item or service (or too often are convinced they need something that they do not need). Lawyers, doctors, mechanics, grocery stores, appliance stores, you name it, often over- charge people, and sadly, the people just pay it and go on with their lives , and it happens again and again. Try to help them and explain that they need to question things more and they tell you that this is the way things are in Mexico and it doesn't do any good to try to change it. To me, that is a defeatist attitude, but I can't say how I would be if I grew up like they did. Sad. 
Makes one appreciate your home country more and those who gave their lives for my freedom and opportunities in life(at least I do).


----------



## citlali

Yes the poor and ignorant are being exploited but it is changing. I can see that many people who cannot read or write have kid using the internet. The internet is opening the outside world for many kids and most kids are internet savy and go to th cyber cafs to communicate or communicate on the social media, things are changing extremely rapidlly amongst even amongst the poorest and least educated and people are not as much in the dark as they used to be even 10 years ago. It is an amazing phenomenon and it is going to force the leading classes to change their ways, I have no doubt about it.


----------



## Hound Dog

coondawg said:


> Excellent post, L.
> 
> 
> ITry to help them (the ignorant Maexicans ) and explain that they need to question things more and they tell you that this is the way things are in Mexico and it doesn't do any good to try to change it. To me, that is a defeatist attitude, but I can't say how I would be if I grew up like they did. Sad.
> Makes one appreciate your home country more and those who gave their lives for my freedom and opportunities in life(at least I do).


Yes, I understand, cooondawg. When we white European Alabamians enslaved a million or so West Africans, we accomplished that because of their compliant and defeatist attitude. I was raised among those who think that way and, nothing personal, but I am feeling nauseated. That old Greyhound Bus to Anniston is still running. Take that bus there.


----------



## Hound Dog

Hound Dog said:


> Yes, I understand, cooondawg. When we white European Alabamians enslaved a million or so West Africans, we accomplished that because of their compliant and defeatist attitude. I was raised among those who think that way and, nothing personal, but I am feeling nauseated. That old Greyhound Bus to Anniston is still running. Take that bus there.


I´m an old guy so I hope I was clear in my remarks. The greyhound Bus of which I wrote that was assaulted by Kluxer trash near Anniston, Alabama was the original freedom rider racially integrated bus heading from Atlanta to Birmingham ind then on to New Orleans in the 1960s during the height of the civil rights struggle. Those Kluxer thugs beat the hell out of the freedom rider contigent riding that bus nearly killing some participants while the then all-white Alabama highway patrol stood by just up the road and purposefully and determinably saw nothing while those freedom riders of both races were beat to a pulp. One must live in a repressive society to understad the evil forces at work therein. Thoughtful poeple understand this in 2014 in Mexico as well as the Alabama folks did in the 1960s.


----------



## coondawg

Hound Dog said:


> I´m an old guy so I hope I was clear in my remarks. Thoughtful poeple understand this in 2014 in Mexico as well as the Alabama folks did in the 1960s.


Are you say'in that both Alabama and Mexico were/are Hell Holes? I can't relate to what you experienced in the 60's in Alabama, as where I grew up, we did not encounter those situations. I doubt very many here did. We were poor and lived 2 blocks from the "tracks", so both sides that close were similar in many ways. The one thing we both had going for us was that both sides of the track had excellent educational opportunities from our public schools.

I'm not sure I follow your use of the word "ignorant", as you added it to what I said. They were not illiterate, if that was what you were implying.

My Grandpa was a smart man, but he never attended school a day in his life (his father told him "no"' when he asked as a boy. (You never asked again when you were told "no". ) So, he would be considered ignorant or illiterate, different from these family members.


----------



## Longford

Media report:



> In Colima, the Federal Police captured Cesar Nava González, former deputy director of Public Safety Cocula and considered one of the principals involved in the disappearance of the 43 normalistas Ayotzinapa on September 26th. He was considered Iguala Mayor Abraca’s right hand man. ... Nava is accused of being paid 13,000 pesos per month by the Guerreros Unidos as protection money. He is charged with being responsible of delivering the students to the ranch of Gildardo López Astudillo alias, “El Gil” of Guerreros Unidos, who was in charge of the students execution.


Source: Another principal suspect captured in the Iguala Normalista case


----------



## Longford

There are media reports quoting parents of the missing 43 students to the effect they are dissatisfied with the investigation into the disappearance/death of their children and that they will now take-up arms and investigate and punish those they deem responsible. It's being reported that they vowed to take the law into their own hands - and specifically to go after mayors. Again, IMO, we see a moving away from the issue of the 43, to people seeking to 'settle the score' as regards older/other grievances against "government."

Source: Amagan padres de los normalistas desaparecidos empuñar las armas


----------



## coondawg

Longford said:


> There are media reports quoting parents of the missing 43 students to the effect they are dissatisfied with the investigation into the disappearance/death of their children Again, IMO, we see a moving away from the issue of the 43, to people seeking to 'settle the score' as regards older/other grievances against "government."]


IMHO, it seems that there is so much "old grievance" against authority in Mexico that it quickly surfaces when such a situation as this "43" arises. Thus, as often happens, the new grievance gets "lost" in the shuffle, and life in Mexico returns to normal. I really believe that many Mexicans have become "numb" to the violence/deaths and their focus moves away from these new tragedies and they return to "normal" life quickly.


----------



## Longford

coondawg said:


> IMHO, it seems that there is so much "old grievance" against authority in Mexico that it quickly surfaces when such a situation as this "43" arises. Thus, as often happens, the new grievance gets "lost" in the shuffle, and life in Mexico returns to normal. I really believe that many Mexicans have become "numb" to the violence/deaths and their focus moves away from these new tragedies and they return to "normal" life quickly.


In a recent blog entry, David Lida - expat/author/resident of the D.F. - wrote this:



> It is difficult for me to imagine where Mexico will go from here. What worries me is that, while there is a long tradition in this country of public protest, there is virtually no civic culture. *There is no understanding of how citizens can work, however slowly, stubbornly, and perhaps even inadequately, to make changes in government.* (It also troubles me that, as far as I can tell, impeachment does not exist in the Mexican political process.) What I have seen happen before is that protest movements rise up. The government reacts insufficiently, or not at all, waiting it out until the protesters get tired, and ultimately the movement dissipates and then disappears.


Source: David Lida: Moment of truth?


----------



## red mcmurphy

Longford said:


> In a recent blog entry, David Lida - expat/author/resident of the D.F. - wrote this:
> 
> 
> 
> Source: David Lida: Moment of truth?


Another self published author with a blog. The internet is filled with them. Their opinions, IMO, are no more valid (or invalid) than many people that participate on forums such as these. YMMV.


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## coondawg

Longford said:


> In a recent blog entry, David Lida - expat/author/resident of the D.F. - wrote this:
> 
> 
> What I have seen happen before is that protest movements rise up. The government reacts insufficiently, or not at all, waiting it out until the protesters get tired, and ultimately the movement dissipates and then disappears.
> 
> Source: David Lida: Moment of truth?


Ditto.


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## Justina

Yes coondawg, I also think that the govt is waiting it out. I can't believe that they don't know where the 43 are since there are several of the alleged murderers in custody and doubt that the PGR would be kind to them and using kid gloves.
This time, they may just have miscalculated, especially since someone leaked the story of the now famous house in Las Lomas.


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## Longford

Justina said:


> Yes coondawg, I also think that the govt is waiting it out. I can't believe that they don't know where the 43 are since there are several of the alleged murderers in custody and doubt that the PGR would be kind to them and using kid gloves.
> This time, they may just have miscalculated, especially since someone leaked the story of the now famous house in Las Lomas.


Persons who allegedly killed the students have told how it was done and where the ashes/remains were dumped/placed. Interviews with one or more of these persons has been published. The challenge has been, as I understand it, identifying remains of persons for whom little or no DNA or identifying items remain because it's been said they were burned. Without having confirming facts the "government" has been searching an ever increasing radius from Iguala and in the process has identified, I'm recalling, probably hundreds of bodies of persons previously killed and who were missing. 

The (former) Mayor of Iguala has now been formally charged with personally killing one of the 51, from what I read in media reports. 

With approx. 75 persons in custody and questioned as the result of the investigation, I, too, find it odd that better information hasn't been obtained. But the record of investigating/convicting persons in Mexico is very bad. 

I believe the federal government is probably trying very hard to resolve the whereabouts of the remains so as to diffuse the protests. 

As for the US$7 million home of the President and his family ... and all of the many other 'side' issues ... they're unrelated to Iguala and attention focused on those matters only diverts attention from the much more serious incident at Iguala.


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## coondawg

Justina said:


> Yes coondawg, I also think that the govt is waiting it out. I can't believe that they don't know where the 43 are since there are several of the alleged murderers in custody and doubt that the PGR would be kind to them and using kid gloves.
> .


I remember the grenades in Morelia and how fast they had the 2 guys who did it. Those 2 guys were actually many miles away when the grenades were thrown, but they readily confessed. Never did hear if they ever did get those actually guilty, or not. Lots of confessions in Mexico, but often not by the guilty. Anyone off the street that pleads guilt will slow the protests down somewhat and make the government look proactive.


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## Hound Dog

_[...As for the US$7 million home of the President and his family ... and all of the many other 'side' issues ... they're unrelated to Iguala and attention focused on those matters only diverts attention from the much more serious incident at Iguala.[/QUOTE]_

Of course, that obscene and blatant bribe is related to Iguala, Guerrero and Mexico in general and to deny that is naive on your part in my opinion Nothing personal, Longford but it´s time to climb down from your illusional high-horse. I consider you to an incisive intellect with good anayltical approach to discerning the fairness of civil matters and know you have many years experience in this country but perhaps your assessments are colored by the company you have kept here in the past for longer than may have been beneficial to your obectivity. 

Iguala, a place I recently visited and Guerrero in general are places poisoned by corruption, extremely vulgar criminality and widespread impunity up and down the line. What happened in Iguala tells us that the snake´s poison emits from the head - not the butt. Iguala was just a hellhole along the way. 

You may disagree.


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## Longford

Hound Dog said:


> .. but perhaps your assessments are colored by the company you have kept here in the past for longer than may have been beneficial to your obectivity.


And perhaps you reside in Mexico, but don't _live_ in Mexico. :confused2:


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## AlanMexicali

We watched the Nov. 20 march/protest in Playa del Carmen and I was given a paper in English by one of the students when passing us and it states the march IS about the 43 missing student teachers and the gov´t. taking too long to get all the answers and want justice and those responsable held accountable. They were all young and peacefully marching.

The same paper was probably given to others on the sidewalk in Spanish.


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## AlanMexicali

Paper given to me on the sidewalk in English during the march/protest. Click on the thumbnails and zoom your screen to 200% to read the 2 sided paper.


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## TundraGreen

What do people think of the 10 point program that Peña Nieto announced today. I think the plans are grandiose and unattainable, but absolutely the right direction. If you don't at least try, things will never improve. Earlier I said real progress will require reforming the judicial system and this is the direction Peña Nieto wants to go, so I applaud him and hope he has some success.

Translated and paraphrased by me. I am sure others here will correct me if I missed the point somewhere.

1.- El lunes enviará iniciativa que facultará al Congreso a expedir la ley contra la infiltración del crimen organizado en las autoridades municipales, para que la federación tome el control de los servicios municipales o en su caso se disuelva un ayuntamiento cuando existan indicios suficientes de que la autoridad local ha sido coludida por el crimen.

Monday, he will ask Congress to quickly pass a law prohibiting the infiltration of cartels into local government and allowing feds to dissolve local governments where there is evidence to that effect.

2.- Se definirán las competencias de cada autoridad en el combate al delito, tomando en cuenta los diferentes niveles de Gobierno, para que cada uno tome sus responsabilidades.

Define the rolls of each level of authority in combatting crime.

3.- La creación obligatoria de policías estatales únicas. Reconoció que hasta hoy han sido capaces de ponerlo en práctica, por lo que el lunes enviará iniciativa para un nuevo modelo judicial. Señaló que para eso se requiere un enorme presupuesto, por lo que se dará prioridad a las comunidades con mayor urgencia que son: Guerrero, Jalisco, Michoacán y Tamaulipas.

Además dijo que habrá sanciones para los presidentes municipales que no entreguen el mando policia, así como para los gobernadores que no lo ejerzan.

Require the creation of single state police forces. Because of the cost, priority will be given to Guerrero, Jalisco, Michoacán and Tamaulipas with sanctions for municipal leaders that do not deliver the required police and to governments that do not use them.

4.- Acelerar la creación de un teléfono único para emergencias a nivel nacional. Pide estudiar la posibilidad de que el número sea 911, por ser el más reconocido entre la población para emergencias.

Speed the creation of a single 911 system nationally.

5.- El establecimiento de una clave única de identidad. Señala que la falta del documento es un obstáculo para dar certeza jurídica.

Establish a national identity card. Lack of such has been an obstacle to delivering justice.

6.- Señaló que ha ordenado realizar un operativo especial en la región de Tierra Caliente, se ampliará el despliegue de fuerzas federales en esa zona, así también en Jalisco y Tamaulipas.

Deploy Special Ops troops to supplement federal forces in Tierra Caliente; and also Jalisco and Tamaulipas.

7.- La creación de reformas adicionales, que hagan efectivo el derecho humano a la justicia. Refirió que con los juicios orales habrá una mejora, pero además dijo que impulsará una amplia agenda de reformas para enriquecer sus iniciativas, pedirá organizar foros de consultas populistas, y que después de 90 días recibirá las propuestas.

Create further reforms to insure access to justice, a human right. He emphasized that his previously announced oral hearings will be an improvement, but also he will also push for additional reforms and will organize public forums. In 90 days, he will receive new proposals.

8.- Propone un conjunto de acciones para fortalecer los derechos humanos, facultará al Congreso para expedir reformas sobre tortura y declaración forzada. Además de fortalecer protocolos y procedimientos en cuanto a desaparición forzada, para que las investigaciones sean oportunas, y en coordinación con la CNDH, entre lo que mencionó la creación de un sistema de justicia para personas no localizadas y un registro nacional de víctimas.

Propose Congressional committee that will expedite reforms in torture and forced confessions. Strengthen protocols and procedures in cases of forced disappearances. Enhance investigations, coordinate with CNDH (Comisión Nacional de los Derechos Humanos), create a system of justice for missing persons and a national victims register.

9.- Promover la aprobación de reformas para lograr el combate eficaz a la corrupción. Pedirá acelerar la aprobación de reformas que ya están en el Congreso, entre las que destaca la creación de un sistema nacional anticorrupción, que incluye esquemas de vigilancia de autoridades por parte de la ciudadanía, la creación de un tribunal que imponga sanciones administrativas.

Además de la creación de mecanismos ágiles para que la ciudadanía realice denuncias, pide sanciones ejemplares para empresas que se coludan con el gobierno; también pidió analizar reforma a la ley de Obras Públicas, para asegurar que los presupuestos se apliquen con honradez.

Speed the approval of reforms for combatting corruption. Request speedy approval of reforms currently before Congress, among them the creation of a national anticorruption system, plans for citizen watchdogs, and a commission to impose administrative sanctions.

In addition, he will create easy mechanisms for citizen complaints, sanctions for companies that collude with the government. Request analysis of reform of laws governing public works, and assuring that taxes are used honestly.

10.- Promover los principios de transparencia, rendición de cuentas, participación ciudadana, e instrumentos de información pública y de fácil acceso. Para iniciar pidió la creación de un portal que incluya información sobre proveedores y contratistas de su administración.

Promote principles of transparency, accountability and citizen participation, with easily accessible public information. Create a portal that includes information about government providers and contractors.

(Note: Thanks to Ojosazules for comments that improved the translation. Any remaining mistakes are of course mine. )


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## Isla Verde

Here's an article from today's NYTimes dealing with the 10-point program proposed by Peña Nieto: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/28/w...on&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well&_r=0


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## Playaboy

Check out the picture at the top of this totally unrelated article and how it relates.

Fact-checking a chalk scrawl: How many people are killed by the LAPD? - The Homicide Report - Los Angeles Times


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## red mcmurphy

Absolutely nothing in the proposals that past presidents haven't promised. Empty words that most Mexicans will view as much of the same ol', same ol'.


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> Here's an article from today's NYTimes dealing with the 10-point program proposed by Peña Nieto: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/28/w...on&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well&_r=0


Peña Nieto is an imbecile
The way I see it: WHEN HE WAS GOVERNOR, HE TRIED TO MAKE PANCAKES, HE COULD NOT DO EVEN 1

Now, he is trying to make a wedding cake!

Yesterday a policeman in motorcycle chased me for about 30 minutes in periferico, trying to make me stop and bribe me, I sent him to where he belongs: to hell. Had to park my truck in costco san antonio until he left. Peña was responsible for those dirty cops, and now he tries to fix a bigger house.


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## GARYJ65

While Peña Nieto was giving his speech about corruption, 11 headless bodies were found!


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## Justina

*Bodies*



GARYJ65 said:


> While Peña Nieto was giving his speech about corruption, 11 headless bodies were found!


Do they have anything to do with the bodies that a French tele channel supposedly found? The Director of the school said that he hadn't 'noticed' the absence of 30 students.


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## Isla Verde

Justina said:


> Do they have anything to do with the bodies that a French tele channel supposedly found? The Director of the school said that he hadn't 'noticed' the absence of 30 students.


The director of the school didn't say that - he said that no students on his school's rolls were missing.


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## Justina

*French tele*



Isla Verde said:


> The director of the school didn't say that - he said that no students on his school's rolls were missing.


Fair enough Isla, I stand corrcted,and I do believe that they disappeared after school broke up, although even when school returned 30 is a lot to lose. 
However, the latest bodies found today or yesterday, which are announced as a war between rival groups fighting for their right to certain 'plazas', brought tears, cos in la jornada all we saw was a grotty foot in a chancla and in a sense it said it all.


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## Justina

*Bodies*



GARYJ65 said:


> While Peña Nieto was giving his speech about corruption, 11 headless bodies were found!


Yes, he couldn't be too happy with that.
One needs a judiciary system completely independent of whatever party is in power.
One needs a federal system of police which should mean that one has a head of the federal system that is beyond repute. Ojala
One should have police who have a thorough understanding of their powers and our rights as citizens. Once again, ojala. We heard that in the DF over30 years ago.


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## Cristobal

Similar reforms and similar rhetoric. These same promises of change have been repeated by nearly every president in the last 40 years. What good is it to reorganize law enforcement agencies? There are cases such as in Jalisco where the State formed the Fuerza Unica and this newly formed enforcement agency has already wrung up an impressive record of abuse.


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## citlali

The students may have disappeared on July 7th , at the end of the school year at a time when the schools are over or just about so it is easy to see why no students would have been missing. When school started new in August the students would just not have enrolled . I wonder if the Director was talking about the roll not changing in July , August or between July and the reopening of the schools in August..
By the way Cocula is a small town so I do not think they need to check for very long to see if children are missing or not.


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## TundraGreen

Lots of people, both here and generally, have expressed skepticism about the effectiveness of anything Nieto attempts. Maybe I am viewing the world through rose-colored glasses, but I think you have to keep trying. Reforming the judicial system seems to get more at the heart of the problem than Calderon's strategy of declaring war on the cartels.

My only question is about Peña Nieto's intent. Is he serious about trying or is he just spouting words to placate the population? If he is serious, and demonstrates it by following through and continuing to press for these changes, I will give him credit even if his progress in implementation is miniscule.


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## ojosazules11

Am I confused or are we talking about 2 different cases here?

The 11 decapitated bodies (how we depersonalize - these "bodies" were living breathing people just a few days ago) were found in Ayahualulco, Guerrero and these youth were apparently on the losing side of a fight between rival organized crime groups for control of the plaza (controlling the plaza means your group gets to do the shaking down, extortion, collusion with powers that be, etc.).

What I've read about Cocula is that 31 youth were kidnapped by armed, hooded men who were apparently seen driving police cars. Reports say this happened in public in broad daylight. There were witnesses, but the witnesses and the students' families were too afraid to speak out or denounce this mass kidnapping. Here's a link in English: 

French TV: 31 more students reported missing in Mexico â€” this time middle schoolers -- Fusion

I hope the proposed national registry for missing persons is established soon and is accessible to all. Hopefully it will include a mechanism for anonymous reporting, because the reality on the ground is that if an individual speaks out, there is a real risk they'll become the next victim. That's one reason I think the mass mobilizations are so important. _"'¡No hay fosa tan grande para callarnos a todos!" _ "There is not a big enough _fosa_ (clandestine mass grave) to silence us all."


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## GARYJ65

Whenever the bodies belong to gang members, I personally don't care much about them, in fact, I firmly believe it is a good thing that they disappear
When they are innocent bystanders, i am very very very sorry for them and their families


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## Cristobal

GARYJ65 said:


> Whenever the bodies belong to gang members, I personally don't care much about them, in fact, I firmly believe it is a good thing that they disappear
> When they are innocent bystanders, i am very very very sorry for them and their families


Violence begets violence.


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## GARYJ65

Cristobal said:


> Violence begets violence.


And violence has always been present in humans lives, wherever you find a human, there is violence, that is something we will never eradicate , we can only take control measures

Once again; as long as gang members kill themselves, I agree


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## Cristobal

Yes, unfortunately, violence has always been a part f the human condition. But if you observe certain cultures, you'll notice that they deal with it better than others. 

Just from curiosity, are you bilingual from youth? Did you attend bilingual schools growing up or maybe one of your parents is a native English speaker?


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## citlali

A life is a life and people commiing murder wether on innocent vitims or on other gang members should be punished. Closing your eyes on murders because they are committed on other criminals does not work. Pretty soon there is a presumption that anyone murdered had to be involved in crimes and you find yourself in the same mess as Mexico is now with almost otal impunity.
The law has to be applied accross the board not selectively at the will of the MP or some other entity .


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos

citlali said:


> A life is a life and people commiing murder wether on innocent vitims or on other gang members should be punished. Closing your eyes on murders because they are committed on other criminals does not work. Pretty soon there is a presumption that anyone murdered had to be involved in crimes and you find yourself in the same mess as Mexico is now with almost otal impunity.
> The law has to be applied accross the board not selectively at the will of the MP or some other entity .


Very commendable and high-minded feelings. However, I myself, with my journalist background, deal with people as they are, not as they should be. And whether it was Chicago mobsters in the 1930s and narco traffickers today, or radical terrorists killing each other in foreign lands, most law abiding citizens just don't care. It's not until regular folk or security officials start getting killed that most people start demanding action. That's the way of the world.

I do commend you if you are actually trying to better humankind towards the goal of caring for all human life.


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## citlali

Yes justice get swept under the rug in the getthos too because" as long as they are killing each other it is ok"
It eventually gets out of hand and spreads so maybe we should get wise and nip it in the bud rather than let the" bad guys" kill each other. 
It is obvious that by the time people wake up it is too late to contain the problem.

I worked in the US liquor business for 30 years so believe me I know first hand the old families. he Jews made the booze and the Italians along with a few Irish mobsters distributed it.
I have been to mob weddings and funerals so you do not need to tell me about the mob from the 30´s. some of them are still around. The ATF does its best to shut them down but they have gone corporate and they are pretty good at covering their butt.
You are right most law abiding citizens do not care until something happens to them but I maintain that it is not the smartest attitude to have.


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos

citlali said:


> Yes justice get swept under the rug in the getthos too because" as long as they are killing each other it is ok"
> It eventually gets out of hand and spreads so maybe we should get wise and nip it in the bud rather than let the" bad guys" kill each other.
> It is obvious that by the time people wake up it is too late to contain the problem.
> 
> I worked in the US liquor business for 30 years so believe me I know first hand the old families. he Jews made the booze and the Italians along with a few Irish mobsters distributed it.
> I have been to mob weddings and funerals so you do not need to tell me about the mob from the 30´s. some of them are still around. The ATF does its best to shut them down but they have gone corporate and they are pretty good at covering their butt.
> You are right most law abiding citizens do not care until something happens to them but I maintain that it is not the smartest attitude to have.


Right, I totally agree with your "You are right most law abiding citizens do not care until something happens to them but I maintain that it is not the smartest attitude to have."

Again, I applaud you for trying to change the attitudes and even actions of people. But again, with a journalist mentality, I just work with people as they are, as most people, all politicians, seek solutions that align with reality, until that reality changes.

It's not a perfect world.


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## ojosazules11

Meritorious-MasoMenos said:


> Right, I totally agree with your "You are right most law abiding citizens do not care until something happens to them but I maintain that it is not the smartest attitude to have."
> 
> Again, I applaud you for trying to change the attitudes and even actions of people. But again, with a journalist mentality, I just work with people as they are, as most people, all politicians, seek solutions that align with reality, until that reality changes.
> 
> It's not a perfect world.


But how can reality change if we just accept it passively, with the excuse of "That's just the way things are." I have never been willing or able to accept that argument. I am a pacifist, but never have and hopefully never will be a "passivist". 

I believe humans create our reality and we are the ones charged with changing it, and I choose to be in the camp of those working to change it for the better. In the words of Margaret Mead, "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."

To do any less is to betray our children, grandchildren and their grandchildren.


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos

ojosazules11 said:


> But how can reality change if we just accept it passively, with the excuse of "That's just the way things are." I have never been willing or able to accept that argument. I am a pacifist, but never have and hopefully never will be a "passivist".
> 
> I believe humans create our reality and we are the ones charged with changing it, and I choose to be in the camp of those working to change it for the better. In the words of Margaret Mead, "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."
> 
> To do any less is to betray our children, grandchildren and their grandchildren.


Brutally, what are you doing to change it that I'm not doing? Just talking, that's just words. Again, if folks are actually doing something, that's great. But what is that? You'd have to change men's souls, humans' souls. 

Has human nature changed down through the centuries? Ghengis Khan and Tamerlane used to approach towns and ask for surrender, then put every man, woman and child to the sword if they didn't surrender. They'd slaughter 400,000 people in a single swoop. Oh, how horrible those ancient people were.

So we proceed to the modern age to Hitler, Stalin and Mao, each responsible for 20 million deaths.

What happened to human efforts to improve humanity in the intervening centuries? How many people over those centuries yearned: "how can reality change if we just accept it passively?"

Does human nature change? Okay, Hitler, Stalin and Mao all died decades ago. We've learned, right? Then how come ISIS leaders and followers glory in sawing off peoples' heads? Don't preach to me. If you want to make a difference, head over to Syria and Iraq and talk to ISIS leaders, "how can reality change if we just accept it passively."

Go on, I challenge anyone. Anyone volunteer to better humanity and head over there?

If not, then all you say are just words. Myself, as a journalist, I just report what humans do. You can all wail and clasp your hands and moan about how superior all of us are, but what does that change?

Mao did know things. "Power grows out of the barrel of a gun," he wrote.

How does ""how can reality change if we just accept it passively" stack up against that?


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## lhpdiver

They say that history repeats itself. If that is true going forward it will repeat at a blistering pace. With this social media stuff (facebook, instagram, twitter ...) the world will never be the same unless it gets so bad that the 'good guys' actually pull the plug on the internet and let the world reboot. When I was a kid growing up in the 50's there was accountability in 'journalism'. Nowadays its just a matter of who can get something out there the fastest. Can you even name 2 news anchors that you respect - the way Walter Cronkite garnered respect ?

What happened to the ebola story ? It is incredible to me that such things disappear just as quickly they arrive - with no resolution. Did you ever hear a single word from the ebola 'czar' that was appointed ? What is his name ? 

Here's a link to an interesting view on beheadings - it really comes down to your perspective (and interests).

http://www.newsweek.com/2014/10/24/when-it-comes-beheadings-isis-has-nothing-over-saudi-arabia-277385.html


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## Isla Verde

ojosazules11 said:


> But how can reality change if we just accept it passively, with the excuse of "That's just the way things are." I have never been willing or able to accept that argument. I am a pacifist, but never have and hopefully never will be a "passivist".
> 
> I believe humans create our reality and we are the ones charged with changing it, and I choose to be in the camp of those working to change it for the better. In the words of Margaret Mead, "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."
> 
> To do any less is to betray our children, grandchildren and their grandchildren.


In theory, I applaud your philosophy, ojosazules, but in reality, I am stumped as to how to effect the kind of changes that will create a better reality. Or it could be that I'm getting just old and have run out of ideas. What are you doing to put your ideas into practice?


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## Longford

Isla Verde said:


> In theory, I applaud your philosophy, ojosazules, but in reality, I am stumped as to how to effect the kind of changes that will create a better reality. Or it could be that I'm getting just old and have run out of ideas. What are you doing to put your ideas into practice?


Problems which developed and took generations to imbed in Mexico and Mexicans cannot and will not be solved quickly. Instead of thinking in terms of years we should be thinking in terms of decades or, at a minimum, a generation. [cut] 

The start of a sea-change in the nation must and has to start in the home ... with the development of a value system which considers Mexican society generally and not just individuals/families selfishly. Hand-in-hand with an honest and value-driven home-life ... Mexicans need to have the opportunity to participate in an effective public education system which supports honest values and honest people. 

One person, one family, one school, one church, one community ... each can and does make a difference. Without that "it takes a village" mind-set Mexico will continue to wallow in its national excrement we're witnessing. 

The challenges are formidable: a wide swath of the country is likely under the control of domestic terrorists/drug cartels; state and/or local governments, local, state and federal police ... and elements of the nation's armed forces do what the terrorists/cartels tell them to; many international companies produce goods in Mexico paying low (by international standards) wages but charging internationally high (for Mexico) prices; wages are too low; more people enter the job market each year than there are jobs available; there seems to be little overall support for a democratic political system. 

Each of us can do something to improve the situation. If we want to.

A separate and probably more important question for an online forum for expats, and probably one for a new discussion thread is: Why would an expat not now living in Mexico but considering Mexico as a relocation/retirement destination ... even consider Mexico seriously ...given the 'failed nation' discussions and horrific revelations now the topic of so many media reports?


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## Isla Verde

Longford said:


> A separate and probably more important question for an online forum for expats, and probably one for a new discussion thread is: Why would an expat not now living in Mexico but considering Mexico as a relocation/retirement destination ... even consider Mexico seriously ...given the 'failed nation' discussions and horrific revelations now the topic of so many media reports?


Are you still planning to retire in Mexico, Longford?


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos

Re: "A separate and probably more important question for an online forum for expats, and probably one for a new discussion thread is: Why would an expat not now living in Mexico but considering Mexico as a relocation/retirement destination ... even consider Mexico seriously ...given the 'failed nation' discussions and horrific revelations now the topic of so many media reports?"

I think Mexico remains by far the most stable and prosperous Latin American nation. Not even close. Even Costa Rica has a far worse problem of street crime. I think a Mexican or foreigner can feel far safer strolling the streets of most Mexican cities and towns than anywhere else in the region, and Mexico has the largest and most prosperous middle class percentage wise of any Latam nation, I believe. Don't hit me with reams of statistics. They don't tell the story.


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## Longford

Isla Verde said:


> Are you still planning to retire in Mexico, Longford?


I'm not a newbie just starting my research on Mexico or where I might relocate during retirement. I've invested decades of time/energy and research in Mexico, so I'm not so quick to eliminate the possibility. However, I'm less inclined to move to Mexico today than I was a decade ago. I expect to retire about a year from now and, for reasons of family, it's likely I will spend the first year of retirement in Ireland. After that initial retirement period, I'll assess what's happening in Mexico and in the locations I'd considering retiring to and I'll form an opinion and make a decision. If I do move to Mexico full-time it won't be because I can't afford to live elsewhere.


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## lhpdiver

> I think Mexico remains by far the most stable and prosperous Latin American nation. Not even close. Even Costa Rica has a far worse problem of street crime. I think a Mexican or foreigner can feel far safer strolling the streets of most Mexican cities and towns than anywhere else in the region, and Mexico has the largest and most prosperous middle class percentage wise of any Latam nation, I believe. Don't hit me with reams of statistics. They don't tell the story.


Kind of along the same lines of my current thinking. For us Mexico is a GREAT place/country/life. I'd much rather live here than say Chicago/Detroit/St Louis. Ok so I can't say that they have ever found 40 something dead bodies in the Everglades - but I wonder what would happen on an Indian reservation say in the Glades (or New Mexico) if a bunch of city-folk left Fort Lauderdale (or Albuquerque) to steal a bunch of buses from the reservation to stage a protest (hope that is not insensitive, and I am not targeting the Native American).

One of the principal reasons we moved/retired here to Mexico was because I could no longer stomach the FRAUD that surrounded us in the US. From VA fraud, to SS disability fraud, political fraud, mortgage fraud ... Mexico is paradise (for us).


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## Hound Dog

[_..The challenges are formidable: a wide swath of the country is likely under the control of domestic terrorists/drug cartels; state and/or local governments, local, state and federal police ... and elements of the nation's armed forces do what the terrorists/cartels tell them to; many international companies produce goods in Mexico paying low (by international standards) wages but charging internationally high (for Mexico) prices; wages are too low; more people enter the job market each year than there are jobs available; there seems to be little overall support for a democratic political system. 

Each of us can do something to improve the situation. If we want to.

A *separate and probably more important question for an online forum for expats, and probably one for a new discussion thread is: Why would an expat not now living in Mexico but considering Mexico as a relocation/retirement destination ... even consider Mexico seriously ...given the 'failed nation' discussions and horrific revelations now the topic of so many media reports?[/QUOTE]*_

How about; would expats now living in Mexico who have been here for some time, move here now? We moved here in early 2001 after deciding on the Latin American Highlands in both North and South America (as well as parts of the U.S. and France)as what we considered the best places to retire for a number of reasons and chose Highland Mexico over otherwise favored Highland Colombia because Colombia, in those days, was in the midst of a terrible civil war. We have invested significantly in Mexico both in real estate (relative to our modest resources) and emotional well-being and continue to love the country but it´s becoming in these recent weeks, a bit off-the-wall and politically unstable to say nothing of skirting political anarchy with endemic corruption from top to bottom that threatens one´s ability to live peacefully and comfortably free of fear. I* will not ever leave here after 14 yeas here unless I must but I would not move here today if I were not already here. No way.* And this is not based on sensational or disparaging media reports but on personal ears to the ground.


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## AlanMexicali

Longford said:


> Problems which developed and took generations to imbed in Mexico and Mexicans cannot and will not be solved quickly. Instead of thinking in terms of years we should be thinking in terms of decades or, at a minimum, a generation. [cut]


Oh Really! Shows how much you know about the character of the vast majority of Mexican people. As a representative of the many Mexicans I know I will put it lightly as I can Longford. <snip>


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## Cristobal

No personal attacks but a poster is allowed to defame all honest Mexicans? How very strange.


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## TundraGreen

Cristobal said:


> No personal attacks but a poster is allowed to defame all honest Mexicans? How very strange.


Racism is not allowed. A statement about _all_ Mexicans is racist. It has been cut.


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## Longford

There is no Mexican _race_. There are Mexicans of several races. When the word _Mexican_ is used in reference to a person or persons the reference is to _nationality_ ... not race.


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## TundraGreen

Longford said:


> There is no Mexican _race_. There are Mexicans of several races. When the word _Mexican_ is used in reference to a person or persons the reference is to _nationality_ ... not race.


Slandering an entire nationality is no more acceptable that slandering a race.


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## AlanMexicali

Longford said:


> There is no Mexican _race_. There are Mexicans of several races. When the word _Mexican_ is used in reference to a person or persons the reference is to _nationality_ ... not race.


You need to go back to high school again. LOL


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## Cristobal

Longford said:


> There is no Mexican _race_. There are Mexicans of several races. When the word _Mexican_ is used in reference to a person or persons the reference is to _nationality_ ... not race.


No problem. You are correct. But besides being a nationality, Mexican can also defined as an ethnicity. So while you may argue your statement was not racist it most certainly be interpreted as bigoted.


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## AlanMexicali

Cristobal said:


> No problem. You are correct. But besides being a nationality, Mexican can also defined as an ethnicity. So while you may argue your statement was not racist it most certainly be interpreted as bigoted.


Some broader definitions of racism includes ethnic, nationality, religious discrimination as racism. 

US Government considers Mexicans as Latinos in the US Census and US Immigration documents but defines it as a classification of persons from any Latin American country, not a race. They also do not say what the race is for these people only what they are classified as and do not consider their heritage in the classification.


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## citlali

I do not think Longford was trying to insult anybody in particular. I sure did not read it this way .
If you live in Mexico you know that one of the major plus in the country is the pleople. The only reason to live here is the people. Unfortunately the mixure of human greed, a corrupt system, poor education a lack of good job oportunities and a huge mount of money generated by the drug business has made the perfect storm to destroy the country and people in general. 

I do not believe I will see a major change in my life time but people being sick of what is happening can bring changes, small steps at a time but you have to start somewhere. Hopefully the pressure on the government to reform will continue so changes can happen.

The people here are resilient and change will happen but I agree it will be slow and probably should be slow to last. 

Longford I have one thing to say if I had to pick between Ireland and Mexico , I would take Mexico and its problems any day.


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos

citlali said:


> Longford I have one thing to say if I had to pick between Ireland and Mexico , I would take Mexico and its problems any day.


I agree 100%. I love the Irish and their country is stunningly beautiful, but to live there full time? Yawn, yawn, yawn. And I don't like their mole poblano either.


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## Longford

citlali said:


> Unfortunately the mixure of human greed, a corrupt system, poor education a lack of good job oportunities and a huge mount of money generated by the drug business has made the perfect storm to destroy the country and people in general.


Widespread corruption throughout Mexico is the core issue we're seeing protested in the various demonstrations and marches. Well, "official corruption" is what we see complained about. However, the corruption is present in many forms in public society. President Peña is reported to have said this about broad-based corruption in Mexico during August, before the (September) conflict in Iguala:



> "I do think there is a cultural issue that, unfortunately, has provoked corruption at all levels and in all organizations, both private and public; it isn't only an issue of public order, and it is fed from both sides, and it has been so, as you have pointed out that one responsible agent is the political party that, precisely, I represent. [But] I think you have to go beyond that; it is a matter that is in the social order."


In response to those comments, Lorenzo Mayer is reported to have replied:



> "If corruption is in the center and it will take so long to change because institutions do nothing, we're fried,"


And Jesus Silva-Herzog reportedly replied:



> "The presidential confession is extremely worrisome. To continue thinking at this point in time that corruption is a matter of 'cultural order' means that corruption exists because 'that's how we are. Cheating is in our historical nature'."


The national debate/discussion about corruption has been going on for generations in Mexico. Change typically does not happen from top > down. It travels in the opposite direction. Positive change in Mexico will have to start in the home, with the family and individuals and percolate from that point. "Official corruption" will subside when the personal/public corruption subsides.

Source for the quoted comments: EPN: If Mexico's Corruption Is Cultural, "We are Fried"


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## Cristobal

The article linked to, in reality is a rebuttal by several prominent members of Mexican society to EPN's claim that it is a matter of social order. IMO, EPN conveniently seems to pass the buck and is trying to justify and lay blame on political corruption elsewhere. As an example, EPN characteristically appointed Romero Deschamps as a senador plurinominal, completely disregarding the blatant coruuption of the man while holding several key posts in the government. Cronyism and corruption on a par with past PRI presidents.

Right after posting the above I searched for the original article. It coincides exactly with my conclusion after reading the snippets quoted by Longford. It completely contradicts the position Longford is trying to present.

Here is the link to the article ion Spanish:

http://aristeguinoticias.com/2508/mexico/si-la-corrupcion-es-cultural-estamos-fritos-mesa-mvs/


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## Longford

Cristobal said:


> It completely contradicts the position Longford is trying to present.


This position?:



> Widespread corruption throughout Mexico is the core issue we're seeing protested in the various demonstrations and marches.


Which was offered, in part, to this earlier comment from citlali:



> Unfortunately the mixure of human greed, a corrupt system, poor education a lack of good job oportunities and a huge mount of money generated by the drug business has made the perfect storm to destroy the country and people in general.


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## Hound Dog

TundraGreen said:


> Slandering an entire nationality is no more acceptable that slandering a race.


Dawg can agree with this having been born in rural South Alabama circa 1942 to a white family of English and Scottish origin who had immigrated to the U.S. Deep South several generations before Dawg popped out of the womb. I was, as a South Alabamian, regardless of my personal proclivities, presumed by many initially, during my travels around parts of the United States, to be racist by nature, a deep swamp *******, uneducated and probably hopelessly moronic, quaint and semi-comical regional ¨"cracker" probably addicted to RC Cola and Moon Pies with the thought processes and communications skills of a deprived bumpkin.

Well, they were partially right. Actually, I liked Coca Cola and cracklins until I had my first taste of extra dry gin at age 15. However, I did not marry until I was 29 and then not to a sister or a cousin. 

I wish I had had some of you sensitive folks attacking Longford defending me from ethnic and regional prejudice aimed at me by uneducated folks from afar assuming I was a clodhopper simply by nature of where I was born and raised. 

Such compassionate defense of ethnic minorities is commendable whether Mexican or Alabamian of European, African or North American ancestry.


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## Cristobal

Longford said:


> This position?:


No. This position:



Longford said:


> The national debate/discussion about corruption has been going on for generations in Mexico. Change typically does not happen from top > down. It travels in the opposite direction. Positive change in Mexico will have to start in the home, with the family and individuals and percolate from that point. "Official corruption" will subside when the personal/public corruption subsides.


And then there is the old saying:

Sh*t rolls downhill.


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos

Cristobal said:


> Sh*t rolls downhill.


A Mexican insight into corruption from someone who knew: ''A politician who is poor is a poor politician"

NYTimes 2001 obit: 
Carlos Hank González, a wealthy and flamboyant politician who helped shape the political party that ruled Mexico for seven straight decades, died on Saturday. He was 73.

Mr. Hank González, famous for coining the phrase ''A politician who is poor is a poor politician,'' died of prostate cancer at his ranch in the central Mexican city of Santiago Tianguistenco, his family announced.

Mr. Hank González was a behind-the-scenes force in the Institutional Revolutionary Party. The party governed Mexico from 1929 until last year, when President Vicente Fox became the first opposition candidate to win the presidency.

Mr. Hank González was Mexico City's mayor, governor of Mexico state, agriculture secretary and director of the tourism ministry. He exemplified the party's old-guard leaders, who built careers by doing small favors for supporters in rural areas.


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## Longford

Meritorious-MasoMenos said:


> A Mexican insight into corruption from someone who knew: ''A politician who is poor is a poor politician"


Carlos Hank Gonzalez amassed (and his family) a huge fortune and was widely reported to be a multi-millionaire. Certainly, earnings from his government salaries over they years propelled him. 



> *According to a report by the U.S. National Drug Intelligence Center (NDIC) nicknamed Operation White Tiger, he -and now his two sons- are so involved in drug trafficking and money laundering that they "pose a significant criminal threat to the United States."* While U.S. law enforcement officials have spent years investigating Carlos Hank Gonzalez and his sons Carlos Hank Rhon and Jorge Hank Rhon, the assessment by several agencies marks the first time that all three have been linked directly to the operations of major Mexican drug organizations. The report drew on information from the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration, FBI, U.S. Customs Service, CIA, Interpol and others. The report says intelligence agencies had intercepted conversations of the Hank family coordinating drug shipments. The document concludes that the Hank family has laundered money on a massive scale, assisted drug trafficking organizations in transporting drug shipments, and is engaged in large-scale public corruption, and was closely associated with the late Juárez Cartel leader Amado Carrillo Fuentes. *A report by the World Policy Institute presented to the U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, described Carlos Hank as the "primary intermediary between the multinational drug trafficking enterprises and the Mexican political system".*
> 
> Following the media revelations about Operation White Tiger, the Hank family, which has denied it is linked to or protecting top Mexican narcotraffickers, lobbied the U.S. Justice Department. With the assistance of Republican former U.S. senator Warren Rudman, whom Carlos Hank Rhon hired to represent his interests in Washington, Hank secured from Reno a letter contradicting the NDIC analysis. The attorney general's retraction of an intelligence analysis based on dozens of past investigations on the Hank family and on new lines of inquiry came as a bitter disappointment to members of the San Diego-based Operation White Tiger Task Force. *The Hanks and their supporters insist that Reno's intervention was just and that they have been victims of innuendo spread by their political and business rivals*.


Source: Carlos Hank González - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=Meritorious-MasoMenos;5879298]A Mexican insight into corruption from someone who knew: ''A politician who is poor is a poor politician"

NYTimes 2001 obit: 
Carlos Hank González, a wealthy and flamboyant politician who helped shape the political party that ruled Mexico for seven straight decades, died on Saturday. He was 73.

Mr. Hank González, famous for coining the phrase ''A politician who is poor is a poor politician,'' died of prostate cancer at his ranch in the central Mexican city of Santiago Tianguistenco, his family announced.

Mr. Hank González was a behind-the-scenes force in the Institutional Revolutionary Party. The party governed Mexico from 1929 until last year, when President Vicente Fox became the first opposition candidate to win the presidency.

Mr. Hank González was Mexico City's mayor, governor of Mexico state, agriculture secretary and director of the tourism ministry. *He exemplified the party's old-guard leaders, who built careers by doing small favors for supporters in rural areas*.[/QUOTE]_


This, of course, is not even remotely unique to Mexico or other parts of Latin America. This is a phenomenon one can experience across the globe emanating from all cultures.

In 1950s Alabama, "Big Jim" Folsom, a true white racial liberal of the time, actually bragged on the stump that he was stealing (literally) from the rich "Big Mules" (corporate steel industry industrialists) of Birmingham and re-distributing the wealth to the then impoverished rural áreas taking his (very large) cut in the meantime. The poor rural folks lapped it up and voted him in as governor by overwhelming margins including the few black voters allowed to qualify to vote in those days. 

After "Big Jim" became governor of Alabama in the early 1950s, he did something of extraordinary significance even today. He, as promised, paved extensive farm roads and delivered electrical current and some public services to formerly deprived rural áreas all over the state but especially to áreas that voted for him. These farm roads were an almost revolutionary development. Farmers in the back country could not, before, get their meager produce to market in a fresh state practically speaking. After the construction of the extensive paved farm road system usable in all seasons during rain or shine, the farmers prospered relative to the past and this infrastructural improvement in the backwoods of Alabama changed the complexión of the state´s formerly miserable economy in ways unimaginable. So, "Big Jim´"s demagoguery, while delivered to the poor for selfish political reasons imany ways, actually accomplished a community benefit for all. 

Desperately poor political jurisdictions, whether temporary or seemingly permanent and whether in Alabama, Mexico, Venezuela, France or (as we all well know) Germany and Russia) attract demagogues and, perhaps, serious, even unspeakable, violence and that is the way of the earth.

Today, where we live in the Chiapas Highland, we see the same delimma but only because we have resided there several months a year in our own home for some eight years and interract with locals extensively. Even then, it took us years to even be accepted much less accepted in the communications loop which is the true news source down there. Once you get there and have been there quite a while and acceptd by locals who may begin to trust you, your eyes may just begin to open but you´ll never see nor comprehend but a fraction of what surrounds you. 

Today, poor farmers in the Chiapas outback exerience the same problems poor Alabama farmers experienced before the 1960s but in spades because Chiapas´often rugged high-mountai terrain without decent roads makes delivery of agricultural goods to market a daunting task. One thing is for sure; Peña Nieto ain´t no "Big Jim" Folsom


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## ojosazules11

Meritorious-MasoMenos said:


> Brutally, what are you doing to change it that I'm not doing? Just talking, that's just words. Again, if folks are actually doing something, that's great. But what is that? You'd have to change men's souls, humans' souls.
> 
> Has human nature changed down through the centuries? Ghengis Khan and Tamerlane used to approach towns and ask for surrender, then put every man, woman and child to the sword if they didn't surrender. They'd slaughter 400,000 people in a single swoop. Oh, how horrible those ancient people were.
> 
> So we proceed to the modern age to Hitler, Stalin and Mao, each responsible for 20 million deaths.
> 
> What happened to human efforts to improve humanity in the intervening centuries? How many people over those centuries yearned: "how can reality change if we just accept it passively?"
> 
> Does human nature change? Okay, Hitler, Stalin and Mao all died decades ago. We've learned, right? Then how come ISIS leaders and followers glory in sawing off peoples' heads? Don't preach to me. If you want to make a difference, head over to Syria and Iraq and talk to ISIS leaders, "how can reality change if we just accept it passively."
> 
> Go on, I challenge anyone. Anyone volunteer to better humanity and head over there?
> 
> If not, then all you say are just words. Myself, as a journalist, I just report what humans do. You can all wail and clasp your hands and moan about how superior all of us are, but what does that change?
> 
> Mao did know things. "Power grows out of the barrel of a gun," he wrote.
> 
> How does ""how can reality change if we just accept it passively" stack up against that?


I'm a bit confused about why my post seems to have angered you, MMM. I wasn't trying to preach to you. Yes, I know that there have been and continue to be atrocities throughout human history and continue to be in far too many regions of the world. Yes, I know that this horrible side to human nature allows some brutal yet charismatic leaders convince their followers to carry out these brutal acts. But there is another side to human nature which compels many others to resist, to help others even at risk of their own lives, or to actively work to bring down these seemingly invincible brutes and their machinery of death. Over the course of history there are as many stories of the nobler side of human nature as the cruel side. As the old tale goes, we all have both a vicious wolf and a noble wolf inside us, which one becomes stronger depends on which one we choose to feed.

I am not "moaning and wailing about how superior all of us are". How did you get that from my comments? I don't live in some fantasy world. I may not be a journalist reporting on what humans do, but I have spent a good part of the past 30 odd years listening to first hand accounts of what humans do from people who have been victims of torture, war, childhood sexual abuse, etc. Rather than become cynical or jaded, the stories which have been shared with me, entrusted to me, have made me even more committed to kindness and caring for each other, and for joining with others to work for change at different levels.

One of my favourite sayings in Spanish is "Hay que poner su granito de arena." "Each of us has to put in our grain of sand." Each grain is minuscule but if there are enough grains, you'll have a beach. I am under no illusion that "I" can change the world. But if there are enough people willing to put in their grains of sand, "we" can change bits of the world at a time. The civil rights movement, for instance, didn't eradicate racism or prejudice, but I don't think that means it was a failure. It brought some much needed changes, but obviously, there is still much work to be done.



Isla Verde said:


> In theory, I applaud your philosophy, ojosazules, but in reality, I am stumped as to how to effect the kind of changes that will create a better reality. Or it could be that I'm getting just old and have run out of ideas. What are you doing to put your ideas into practice?


I think there are many ways to "put in our grain of sand". I don't want to sound preachy or superior by saying, "Look what I've done." I know so many others who have put in bucketfuls compared to my little grains, but I really do believe lots of small initiatives and actions can add up to positive change. At least I think it's better than giving in to despair. 

I would guess many forum members have done volunteer work, participated in civic initiatives, done lots of things to make their community a better place. Do I think that will take down ISIL or save the world? No. Do I think it makes the world a bit less brutal? Yes. Personally, I have participated in initiatives at multiple levels over the years, from helping individuals - including a lot of work with refugees - in both a personal and professional capacity, volunteering, grassroots solidarity work, sitting on the Board of an agency which both provides direct assistance to refugees and newcomers, as well as initiatives at the public policy level, advocacy work, employment supports, initiatives to increase civic participation. I've also been involved in organizations which address health care issues, such as identifying and finding ways to decrease barriers to accessing health services, addressing the social determinants of health (at both community initiative and public policy level). Some of these organizations work at the Ontarian/Canadian level, others have an international focus. Writing letters through Amnesty International, donating money as possible to organizations which are trustworthy and putting it to good use, such as Oxfam. One small organization which does excellent, small scale projects, especially in Central America, is EPIC. Their projects are coordinated on the ground by local communities, which identify their needs and priorities, rather than by someone from the outside. For instance, EPIC supports a project which allows young Honduran campesinos the alternative of increasing their production and yield, through sustainable organic agricultural techniques such as terracing, so they have an option to support their families other than making the dangerous trek north. You can read more about it here:

La Semilla del Progreso – HONDURAS | EPIC | Ecumenical Project for International Cooperation

There are so many other options - initiatives to reduce poverty, to protect the environment - so many causes, so little time. I don't think one way is the "right" way. Each grain of sand....

If I were in Mexico right now, I would like to find a way to participate in "civil society" groups to work with others who want to try to make a positive difference. (Obviously, as a non-Mexican, any participation would be dependent on the wishes of local people - I'm not looking to impose myself on anyone.) In one of Longford's posts there was a link to a blog by David Lida - the bit I've read so far I've found interesting - thanks, Longford, for the link. David Lida posted about a "Social Dialogue for Justice, Truth, and Peace" which was held in Mexico City last week. This is intended as a start towards a broader dialogue throughout Mexico to work towards concrete proposals for ways to bring about real change in Mexico. I'm sure many naysayers will say "What's the point? The cartels aren't going to listen." To me the point is the more people involved, the more voices calling for change, the more likely change will come. Maybe not this year or next - maybe not for a long time. But it is a start.


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## Justina

I think everything will comtinue, until the state comes clean. The grannies of Argentina have entered the situation. Everyone is alive until the state says that the missing are dead. A very subtle move, as it puts the govt in a very difficult situation as it seems that their forces murdered the students, which seems to be in reality the situation. In theory, it means that the govt ie PN is responsible for what has happened. Until now, he is trying to focus the situation on the state of guerrero, as the people responsible. It can be construed as crimes against the state. Since the cry of finding the students has been taken up worldwide in the sense that the world knows about it, he has to either come clean and leave his govt opened to many charges from the international community.


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## Longford

Justina said:


> In theory, it means that the govt ie PN is responsible for what has happened. Until now, he is trying to focus the situation on the state of guerrero, as the people responsible.


While it may suit the ulterior or other motives of some of the demonstrators who have grievances with their country and/or elected local/state/federal officials regarding issues unrelated to the missing/deaths of 51 students and other persons at Iguala at the end of September - and some other persons just looking for a reason to take to the streets to forment violence no matter the banners carried - I think it's a bit of a stretch of the imagination, at this point in time, to suggest the current President of Mexico, who assumed office two years ago yesterday, is directly or indirectly responsible for what narcos and corrupt local politicians allegedly did in a community and in a state which politically and local police actions/power are directed by and controlled by the leftist PRD. Trouble has been brewing and conflict (including violence) erupting periodically at the school in Tixtla and with students from that particular "teachers" college for at least a couple of decades.


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## Hound Dog

_...So we proceed to the modern age to Hitler, Stalin and Mao, each responsible for 20 million deaths...._

MMM; I have not excerpted this comment from your full quotation to edit your thoughts but I was struck by this particular sentence you presented for a couple of reasons. I was intrigued by the notion that among these three dictators, they were responsible for 60 million deaths in total. That number seems to be a bit skewed but there is no doubt that millions died early and often terrible deaths as a result of wars and political turmoil/movements occuring during the times these opportunists were either ascending to or were in power.


Hitler, Stalin and Mao were not, in my opinión, responsible for the atrocities of their times - they were the directors of the aggregate and corrupted municipal bands under their directorships composed of the general public - rich, poor, well-connected and inconsequential alike. Poisonous toads grow from seed sprouted by others along the way - they don´t just pop out of the ground. These guys were not of royal blood inheriting their thrones and rights to commit mass murder. They earned their rights to commit mayhem through the political process in each entity in which they operated. That accession to power came through the people of each political jurisdiction involved, not through some act of God or Satan or whatever diety you prefer 

Iguala did not arise to become a corrupt and fetid place because of its mayor, his wife, the chief of pólice, the state governor or the military personnel in charge of the military emplacements there. The town can´t sluff off its responsibilities because Guerrero is the second poorest state in the unión. I live in nearby Chiapas - the poorest state in the unión and also teetering on the edge. We don´t just sit up in some high mountain, fenced-in fraccionamiento with our thumbs up our asses and heads in the sand and we are Mexican citizens. We reside right in the middle of town among Mexican neighbors. 

The society as a whole is responsible for this debacle happening here now, not during WW 11. 

I am reminded of having grown up in rural South Alabama from 1940s through the late 1960s. I was raised by decent, non-racist people and most of the people in my home town of some 5,000´people both white and black, were decent folks. Yet, when the avowed racist George Wallace took over the governorship of that state and declared "Segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever." and then stood in that school house door to prevent two black students from entering a university with 20,000 white students back in the 60s, you could hear a pin drop and all those decent people shuffled off to work at their daily tasks hoping the curse would simply go away.

Well, it will not go away. Peña Nieto set out to manage the news and pretend the corruption and violence was an illusion. He thought to make this gut-level filth disappear by ignoring it. As we found out in Alabama in the 1950s and 1960s, if you try to ignore the rats inhabiting your basement pretending they are not there then, what they do is they breed and become emboldened and before you know it they are in your living room ****ting on your beautiful sofá and eating your left over food in the kitchen.

Only the Mexican people can resolve this. The Iguala incident will be Mexico´s equivalent of the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing in Birmingham from the 1960s. Four Little black girls preparing for Sunday services were blown to smytherines by Kluxer bombers bacause that church had been an epicenter of the civil sights struggle in that city in those days. That slaughter of young innocents preparing for church services changed the social fabric of the city of Birmingham immensley and the city has never been the same racially repressive society it had been before that atrocity since its founding in the 19th Century. Both the white and black communities were profoundly disturbed by this barbarous killing and came together to seek peace and reconciliation. The city has since changed in ways unimaginable before the bombing and is now a quite nice, civilized community and those changes affected the whole state of Alabama in positive ways insofar as race relations were concerned.

Perhaps the unimaginable Iguala tragedy will help Mexico heal its wounds. As a devoted Mexican citizen, I certainly hope so. I have chosen my place for better or worse.


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## Longford

Photos from some of the protest marches, principally, I believe, taken of protests in Mexico City:










Click here to see more.


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## Hound Dog

Leave it to Mexicans to turn serious demonstration against injustice an crime into a fiesta. 

We're off to anarchic and volatile Mexico City and Oaxaca City for some fun with European relatives . If we make it back to Lake Chapala we'll tell you about the trip. If not, we´ll become among the dissapeared. What the hell; we are soon destined to disappear anyway,


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## Detailman

Hound Dog,

You will be fine. Through your posts I detect a large amount of worldly acumen!! If you faced a problem I am sure you be able to either talk your way out, or offer some remuneration or better still avoid the problem in the first place by skedaddling as fast as you can with Citlali. 

If you ever faced real danger tell them you are a national treasure due to the amount of fine tequila in your system and that your demise could seriously affect the economy of the State. On the same vein any attempt to dispose of your body by burning would bring people from miles around due to the sky high flames that would result due to the alcohol content in your body. 

Love you Hound Dog! Take care of yourself and Citlali and know that we have the same type of humour!

Sent from my iPhone using ExpatForum


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## Isla Verde

Hound Dog said:


> Leave it to Mexicans to turn serious demonstration against injustice an crime into a fiesta.
> 
> We're off to anarchic and volatile Mexico City and Oaxaca City for some fun with European relatives . If we make it back to Lake Chapala we'll tell you about the trip. If not, we´ll become among the dissapeared. What the hell; we are soon destined to disappear anyway,


I haven't seen any demonstrations in Mexico City lately that remind me of fiestas, but maybe when you and citlali arrive, the demonstrators will put on a special show just for you!

In between marches and related brou-ha-ha, things have been no more anarchic than usual, at least not in my barrio. No one would dare "disappear" you as long as you're with me.


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## citlali

yes Isla do not worry we will go to dinner as soon as possible after we arrive so if we bite the dust at least we will have had one nice last meal!


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## Hound Dog

Thank you Detailman and Isla for your kind words.  Better to journey to places where the s*it is hitting the fan than attending church services in Des Moines on any Sunday and lunch after a boring sermón at the nearest cafetería with all the iced tea one can drink followed by lemon meringue pie and a tootsie roll.


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## Isla Verde

Hound Dog said:


> Thank you Detailman and Isla for your kind words. Better to journey to places where the s*it is hitting the fan than attending church services in Des Moines on any Sunday and lunch after a boring sermón at the nearest cafetería with all the iced tea one can drink followed by lemon meringue pie and a tootsie roll.


I love lemon meringue pie, boring sermons, not so much!


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## Detailman

Hound Dog said:


> Thank you Detailman and Isla for your kind words. Better to journey to places where the s*it is hitting the fan than attending church services in Des Moines on any Sunday and lunch after a boring sermón at the nearest cafetería with all the iced tea one can drink followed by lemon meringue pie and a tootsie roll.


Hound Dog,

I knew you would get my humour. 

You once said that when I came back to Ajijic we could get together for a drink. You might not remember depending on the tequila shots. 

If we get back, and I say that based on current conditions that I feel might continue to deteriorate, it would be my treat for a meal out along with some Don Julio Anejo -- unless you can convince me there is something better -- without having to sell my daughter (easy to say as I don't have a daughter!)

Still enjoy your comments from afar. 

With current world problems and issues, Vancouver, BC is looking very safe as well as beautiful!

Enjoy your time with the family. That is one of life's joys. 

PS- We just finished some baby back ribs and now my wife is enjoying a Don Julio Anejo while I enjoy a Remy Martin XO Cognac (in honour of Citlali). Viva la France!

Sent from my iPhone using ExpatForum


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## Hound Dog

Thanks for the invitation, DT but just one minor detail. For Dawg, wood belongs in fine single malt scotches and there is only one truly great tequila - Herradura Blanco (or, perhaps, silver) but no wood allowed. We can still toast our mutual continued existence wood or no wood. I look forward to sharing some spirits with you if the opportunity presents itself. Keep in mind that we live at Lake Chapala in the summer and fall and the Chiapas Highlands in the winter and spring so if you get to the lake and can´t find me, come to San Cristóbal and look for a fat guy lounging in the main plaza in that town´s historic center reading one of the local rags. If he speaks English, that´s me. I look forward to seeing you.

I am also a fan of lemon meringue pie, Isla; it´s the sermóns and Des Moines I find objectionable. Of course, as an Alabama boy, I must put in a vote for tipsey pudding (¡Hic!) with lots of dark rum or well-aged sherry over lemon meringue pie.


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## Longford

The following isn't about Iguala, but it relates to much of what has been discussed in this and related discussions:



> Local police in the city of San Fernando in northern Mexico were involved in the 2011 massacres of 193 mainly Central American migrants whose bodies were found in mass graves, according to federal prosecutors.


Mass murders have, I've no doubt, been taking place in Mexico for decades. Much of what we see protested about in various parts of Mexico isn't specifically directed towards the Iguala incident in September, but, rather, the larger picture of disappearances, kidnappings, slaughtering, and various criminal and corrupt acts.

Click here to read more of the article from which I copied the text, above.


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## Longford

Source: Borderland Beat


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## Hound Dog

Longford said:


> Source: Borderland Beat


Mass graves are a worldwide phenomenon. Iguala, on the surface, is a pleasant foothill Guerrero town as Múnich was a nice regional capital in Bavaria and Montgomery was a nice state capital in Alabama during the days of the of the KKK prominence. Beautiful oak trees make fine killing fields on sturdy branches. The mean streets of Chicago run with blood. Look to your own backyard for human carnage and injustice rather than far afield in the environments inhabited by others.


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## Longford

Hound Dog said:


> Mass graves are a worldwide phenomenon.


The topic is Mexico.



Hound Dog said:


> The mean streets of Chicago run with blood. Look to your own backyard for human carnage and injustice rather than far afield in the environments inhabited by others.


You seem enamored with Chicago, so you might want to post your comments about the city and/or crime in the city on the USA forum, not the Mexico one, so that they can be discussed in context by people who may be able to intelligently discuss the questions/comments.


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## Hound Dog

Well, of course, anyone with minimal cognizance would pick Iguala (population about 150,000 souls) over Metropolitan Chicago as a place to reside given a choice. A choice between a physically attractive small city located in the attractive forested foothills of Guerrero at about 1,000 meters in altitude near such celebrated places as Taxco and Cuernavaca and reasonably close to Pacific Coast beaches or butt-ugly suburban sprawl covering endless miles of unimpressive, flat climatically challenged prairie with a few self-concious high rises constructed to try to prove something unprovable as in, "...we are living here on this unimpressive prairie with its harsh winters and summers because we have jobs here..." Otherwise we´d have kept going until we reached San Francisco as would any rational person. 

Both burgs are corrupt and violent so those are not factors in the decisión- making process. Iguala is a damned pleasant little city physically with an extraordinarily pleasant climate while greater Chicago is the very definition of unpleasant urban sprawl in search of nothing of significance except, maybe, that rather nice large lake . In either place, you just need to know the clique requiring fealty and you´ll survive until your time to exit the planet has come.

As a native Alabama boy, I have never understood the attraction some find in the northern United States. While residing in San Francisco, I used to be assigned with some regularity, to work in Seattle, Portland and Eugene and my colleagues up there would inquire as to whether I intended to "Californicate" Washington or Oregon States with my presence upon retirement as did many Californians in the 1990s seeking cheap housing in the cold, clammy Northwest. I always responded that as soon as I left San Francisco, I would not even slow down until I reached the Mexican border. An easy choice.


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## coondawg

Hound Dog said:


> my colleagues up there would inquire as to whether I intended to "Californicate" Washington or Oregon States with my presence upon retirement as did many Californians in the 1990s seeking cheap housing in the cold, clammy Northwest. I always responded that as soon as I left San Francisco, I would not even slow down until I reached the Mexican border. An easy choice.


Hey Dawg, Merry Christmas, from one flea blanket to another !
When was the last time you spent any time of significance (3 months, or so) NOB? I'm there now and it is getting cold. Burrrrrrr !!!!


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## Hound Dog

_


coondawg said:



Hey Dawg, Merry Christmas, from one flea blanket to another !
When was the last time you spent any time of significance (3 months, or so) NOB? I'm there now and it is getting cold. Burrrrrrr !!!! 

Click to expand...

_That´s a tough question.CD. NOB for Dawg was normally Alabama and California which were not usually that cold. The really cold last winter I spent in frosty climates was in Paris in the 1960s and, while that was one fine city, I´ve always sought out more southern places since then. I was selling the _New York Times _in the streets of Paris in December, 1966 outside the Paris opera house and DAMN was it cold. That was over 40 years ago and, once I had my ass deposited back into Alabama in late 1966, I moved to California and other such places , many near the Equator, and never settled in cold places since then. 

Brother Dave Gardner, a southern comedian from the 1960s, theorized that the only reason people lived up north was because they had Jobs up there. Sincé I haven´t worked since 2000 and then worked in San Francisco and environs for 30 years before that, I haven´t experienced frozen turf in so many years I wouldn´t know a turnip root fom a beetroot. I do know a lime from a mandarin when they proliferate several seasons a year here in my garden at Lake Chapala and that pleases me to no end.


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## RVGRINGO

I am reminded of Brother Dave Gardiner on 33 RPM and a line that sticks in my memory: “She was alright until I turned her head around“.
He was great and I wish I still had that record.
Thanks for jogging my memory HD.


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos

Hound Dog said:


> I was selling the _New York Times _in the streets of Paris in December, 1966 outside the Paris opera house and DAMN was it cold.


You didn't run into a breathless Jean Seberg selling the International Herald Tribune, perchance?


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## Hound Dog

_


Meritorious-MasoMenos said:



You didn't run into a breathless Jean Seberg selling the International Herald Tribune, perchance?

Click to expand...

_Funny you should ask that, MMM. I sold the _New York Times _during the 60s when the _International Herald Tribune _had a lock on the street-sales of English language newspapers in Paris and I sold _The Times _both at the Opera just outside the Café de La Paix and on the Champs-Élysees and, since _The Times _at the time was trying to cut into the_ Herald Tribune´_s lock on the European English language newspaper market, I made some nice change selling those newspapers - something like the equivalent in those days of $0.60 US per paper which was good money - even in Paris - in 1966. Then this beautiful Young woman moved into my territory selling the _Herald Tribune _across the Street adjacent to the Opera House and my sales went to hell. Maybe that was Jean Seberg - I don´t know - but she kicked my ass saleswise. It was damn cold on the streets of Paris in December so I gave up and went back to visit Mommy and Daddy for Christmas back in South Alabama with its more moderate climate and no need to sell those newspapers to rake in some change. Plus Daddy had a nice liquor cabinet and the price of booze in París would break The Pope even in 1966.


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## mattoleriver

RVGRINGO said:


> I am reminded of Brother Dave Gardiner on 33 RPM and a line that sticks in my memory: “She was alright until I turned her head around“.
> He was great and I wish I still had that record.
> Thanks for jogging my memory HD.


Well, that got me interested. Maybe this is what you remember.


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## Hound Dog

Many may not remember this but, as I recollect, it was Brother Dave Gardner who used to substitute for either Jack Parr or Johnny Carson many years ago on what was then the "Tonight Show" or something like that. Unfortunately, he went out badly later in life becoming a lacky for the Kluxer trash but in his early days he was a brilliant satirist. as was also my other hero, Dick Gregory out of Chicago. 

Two of my favorite lines from each:

*Brother Dave:*
In order to get a degree from the University of Georgia, it is necessary to drive down the Athens main street with your driver´s side window open and they throw your diploma through the window - no gratuity anticipated. 

*Dick Gregory (circa 1970 or so)*:
There is a new game in town known as "Freedom Rider Roulette". They hand you a hat with six Greyhound Bus tickets. from which you may blindly select by reaching into the hat held above eye-level. Five are one-way tickets on a Greyhound to Chicago  and one is a one-way ticket to Birmingham.


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## Longford

:focus:


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## ojosazules11

This article is from Dec. 17 but I found John Ackerman's analysis of the broader and longer term implications of the events since Iguala interesting and enlightening.

"We have an opening up in history": John M. Ackerman discusses Ayotzinapa and what's next - Latin Correspondent

Two quotes from the article:_
People ask me what’s going to make this movement different from the past ones, as if the past ones somehow failed. My response is that we have to change the question. The reason why this present movement has been so successful is because of the important achievements of the past movements in raising consciousness and installing networks of social organization, trust and collective action which today are being mobilized in an unprecedented and cumulative fashion. It is of course true that the students of #YoSoy132 didn’t stop Peña Nieto from getting to the presidency and Javier Sicilia didn’t stop the drug war, and the protests against the reforms didn’t stop the reforms. But what they did do was establish an historic opening of consciousness and criticism of the political project of neoliberal authoritarianism.

.....

Independently of what happens in the future — if tomorrow, all of a sudden, there were no protests, which is very unlikely — the majority of Mexicans are now empowered and feel a personal responsibility to change things in the country. This is an invaluable achievement since it implies an historic break with the learned pessimism and passivity encouraged daily on the principal television and radio networks in Mexico. _


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## coondawg

In Leon, there is no evidence of any protesting, no comments on the streets or in the local TV about Iguala. Everything is "normal" and actually has been for some time.


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## Longford

ojosazules11 said:


> This article is from Dec. 17 but I found John Ackerman's analysis of the broader and longer term implications of the events since Iguala interesting and enlightening.


Yes, all viewpoints are important to have a look at. Thanks for providing the link. Some viewpoints are factually-based and impartial (impartial as one can be) and others are expressions of opinions be they informed or uninformed. I classify Ackerman's comments as opinions formed by his seemingly (to me) left-leaning and often sympathetic/apologetic political views for certain groups/persons he writes about. I would encourage persons wishing to learn more about what happened in Iguala and about the students and the school they attended, as well as underlying issues, to broaden their search beyond the Ackerman opinion piece. Participants in this discussion have also provided links to some additional sources earlier in this discussion thread.


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## diablita

Argentine experts question Mexico's missing student probe - NewsTimes

For some reason the link description does not reflect what it actually points to...


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## diablita

Peritos argentinos ponen en duda la "verdad histórica" de la PGR sobre Ayotzinapa - Aristegui Noticias


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