# Its True - Kiwis dont really like Amercians.



## ripeka

We generally don’t like or trust Americans. Sad but true. Sorry. If you are an American, make sure you know other Americans that you plan on socialising with when you come out to NZ. Otherwise unfortunately, as many of you are finding out, you are likely to remain socially isolated. Out of all the English speaking world, Kiwis dislike Americans the most (probably unfairly)
.
Don’t shoot the messenger but here is a bit of a heads up about how we Kiwis think. Please try not to be offended; be aware that these are sweeping generalisations, they are NOT necessarily the truth of the situation but I have outlined some of the ways that Kiwis generally perceive the USA and Americans.

Rightly or wrongly WE:

a.	View your political antics on the world stage with suspicion

b. Are scathing of the arrogance with which the USA has dismissed UN directives (eg over Iraq) and initiatives such as the Kyoto Protocol – truly your arrogance on the world stage is breathtaking; 

c.	Believe that your country thinks it is a law unto yourselves and we don’t respect that

d.	Feel you selfishly gobble up far too much of the world’s resources – much more than your share

e.	Believe that given the size of your country, you have had the capacity to do things like end world hunger but because it is not in your political interests to do so, you don’t bother

f.	View your extroverted nature with suspicion as some sort of attempt to dominate others by being the biggest and loudest and having a superior attitude (much as you attempt to dominate the world stage) 

g.	See much of your sense of humour as being corny and simplistic (eg the only sitcoms we really like are those that rely on an ironic, more sarcastic or dry humor)

h.	Cant believe how many people in the USA seem to be gullible and just not all that intelligent (that’s the result of those day time chat shows/media/trashy magazines/Hollywood superstar silly behaviour that don’t present you in a good light)

i.	Resent that the USA sets a trend and a few short years later we have it happening in our society eg increasing obesity. Given media influence and the economic power of your corporates, we feel powerless to stop this and really really don’t like it.

These are some of the ways we think and the attitudes you are up against. Thought you should know then you wont be surprised when you don’t get a fair welcome and open offers of friendship.


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## Bevdeforges

Oddly enough, I think Americans the world over face pretty much the same "obstacles" to acceptance. And in some cases, many of the things you cite are precisely why some Americans choose to expatriate themselves.

I admit to avoiding one particular type of "ugly American" overseas - one who insists on proclaiming the perfection of the "Old Country" and can't hear any criticism without giving you a rambling rebuttal (and, in my case, hassling me for the fact that I am not their idea of the Perfect Patriot). But these folks are mercifully not too awful common, and usually are just tourists passing through. Or else they are precisely the type of "expats" who soon give up on the experience and head back home.

Though I haven't yet been to New Zealand, I can report that I've met plenty of Kiwis and so far have always managed to get on just fine with them. If anything, I find the Kiwis even more easy going than the Ozzies. In fact most people around the world seem to be more than willing to meet individuals and not to condemn people based on the reputations of their governments or societies.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Elphaba

So Ripeke - what gives you the right to speak for a whole nation about a whole nation? 

That is a ridiculous sweeping generalisation.
-


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## topcat83

Here's my view: Kiwis don't hate Americans - but they're not very keen on American politics. That's actually a big difference. 

Another reason Americans have difficulties settling here is the different culture - we speak the same language, but that's about it. As I've said in a couple of my other posts, the main problem is how people present themselves - American culture is to sell themselves by saying what they can do, while Kiwi culture considers this bad manners, and will if anything undersell themselves (look for any posts on 'tall poppy sydrome'). 

Just come bearing this point in mind, and you'll fit in - American or not!


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## jojo

Its a dangerous game to "dis" an entire nation. With that kind of thought process, doesnt it make you wonder how the rest of the world perceive Newzealanders??? I wonder what you'd think of the answers??? 

Personally I prefer to judge people on what they say and their actions, not their country of birth. 

Jo xxx


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## NZCowboy

I'm with Jojo, Topcat.
As a NZer I wish to distance myself from Ripeka's comment's. 
Ripeka, I'm not sure what stone on the Canterbury plains you crawled out from under but maybe you should crawl back under it. Your bigoted opinions and views on how NZers perceive Americans come from person living under a stone. 
As a Kiwi I wish to apologise on behalf of all NZer's for Ripeka's take on Americians, and say that we have more intelligence than shown here and we don't not to judge a person on where they are from but rather than who the individual is.


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## topcat83

NZCowboy said:


> I'm with Jojo, Topcat.
> ....


just to stress - so am I!


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## ripeka

Elphaba said:


> So Ripeke - what gives you the right to speak for a whole nation about a whole nation?
> 
> That is a ridiculous sweeping generalisation.
> -


If you read my post properley, you will see that I actually said it was a sweeping generalisation (doh!). But I am a born and bred kiwi and know how most of the people think that i have lived with and worked with for my whole life, so just thought it might be helpful but hey if its not, then "build a bridge" and move on as us kiwis say.


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## ripeka

NZCowboy said:


> /
> As a NZer I wish to distance myself from Ripeka's comment's.
> Ripeka, I'm not sure what stone on the Canterbury plains you crawled out from under but maybe you should crawl back under it. Your bigoted opinions and views on how NZers perceive Americans come from person living under a stone.
> As a Kiwi I wish to apologise on behalf of all NZer's for Ripeka's take on Americians, and say that we have more intelligence than shown here and we don't not to judge a person on where they are from but rather than who the individual is.


I dont think there is any need to be so rude. Again, READ MY POST CAREFULLY- I also said that the kind of thoughts that I express are NOT necessarily the truth (and for the record, its not necessarily MY take on Americans); just that these are the sentiments that get expressed by Kiwis all around me about USA & Americans. Americans should know the prejudice they are up against. That was the point of my post.


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## Eleisha

ripeka said:


> We generally don’t like or trust Americans. Sad but true. Sorry. If you are an American, make sure you know other Americans that you plan on socialising with when you come out to NZ. Otherwise unfortunately, as many of you are finding out, you are likely to remain socially isolated. Out of all the English speaking world, Kiwis dislike Americans the most (probably unfairly)
> .
> Don’t shoot the messenger but here is a bit of a heads up about how we Kiwis think. Please try not to be offended; be aware that these are sweeping generalisations, they are NOT necessarily the truth of the situation but I have outlined some of the ways that Kiwis generally perceive the USA and Americans.
> 
> Rightly or wrongly WE:
> 
> a.	View your political antics on the world stage with suspicion
> 
> b. Are scathing of the arrogance with which the USA has dismissed UN directives (eg over Iraq) and initiatives such as the Kyoto Protocol – truly your arrogance on the world stage is breathtaking;
> 
> c.	Believe that your country thinks it is a law unto yourselves and we don’t respect that
> 
> d.	Feel you selfishly gobble up far too much of the world’s resources – much more than your share
> 
> e.	Believe that given the size of your country, you have had the capacity to do things like end world hunger but because it is not in your political interests to do so, you don’t bother
> 
> f.	View your extroverted nature with suspicion as some sort of attempt to dominate others by being the biggest and loudest and having a superior attitude (much as you attempt to dominate the world stage)
> 
> g.	See much of your sense of humour as being corny and simplistic (eg the only sitcoms we really like are those that rely on an ironic, more sarcastic or dry humor)
> 
> h.	Cant believe how many people in the USA seem to be gullible and just not all that intelligent (that’s the result of those day time chat shows/media/trashy magazines/Hollywood superstar silly behaviour that don’t present you in a good light)
> 
> i.	Resent that the USA sets a trend and a few short years later we have it happening in our society eg increasing obesity. Given media influence and the economic power of your corporates, we feel powerless to stop this and really really don’t like it.
> 
> These are some of the ways we think and the attitudes you are up against. Thought you should know then you wont be surprised when you don’t get a fair welcome and open offers of friendship.


Thank you so much for taking the time to say all that, it was hard to read but boy it's really helped me to get some perspective on what I went through in New Zealand, it wasn't "me" so much as they way they see "us." I have to tell you that I haven't experienced anything like the same since I left, it's been like walking out into the sun after a long winter.

Wow but your post drew a *big *reaction from all the moderators, you got all the big guns out with that one!


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## Fatbrit

Eleisha said:


> Wow but your post drew a *big *reaction from all the moderators, you got all the big guns out with that one!


As long as no-one starts on British-Americans, I'm saying nothing.


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## CanterburyChick

I'm sure there are some Kiwi's who do agree with your sentiments Ripeka and at the end of the day you are totally within your rights to have your own opinion (generalisation or not) - its a free speaking country! 

I personally take each person (from wherever they come from in the world) on their own merits. I work with clients from all race/skin colour and political viewpoints. Whilst I may not agree with the political view point/or maybe the culture of their country I have found 9 times out of 10 that is exactly why that person is migrating.

Whilst I cannot speak for the Kiwi's (I have lived in NZ for 5 years but I am from British origin) I personally welcome getting to know Americans whether they be friends or clients.

I think many Americans find the difference in culture here much more of a shock that the Brits because the U.S. is such a vast country, materialistic and has a large volume of choice - to come to New Zealand must seem like they've gone back 50 years.......BUT....New Zealand is a small country, there's only 4 million of us here - please don't forget that!

Wherever you go in the world there will always be someone that judges you because of your country of origin (and that goes for all of us!). The best thing to do is to ignore them and just be yourself and then hopefully they'll see past the generalisation of your country and take you for you!


PS. Moderators - I'm not touting for business - just giving a perspective as I work with people from all round the world


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## ripeka

Let me be quite clear. The statements I made are not necessarily my opinion (although the attitude towards USA politics is probably also indicative of mine). I am sorry that Kiwis seem to have this prejudice against Americans. I am a 45 year old female, Pakeha (white) married to a Maori, have maori children, and my best friend is Maori and married to a Samoan who lives in NZ. So I do understand a bit about prejudice and discrimination. I do try to be open and accept people on their own merits from where-ever they come BUT my post is trying to sum up some of the cultural attitude towards Americans that I have encountered from Kiwis that I mix with. FYI my friends and family live between all the four main cities - I dont get to hear what rural NZ thinks but on most things it is usually even more close minded.

I would also have to say that anti american sentiment has possibly increased in the last few years imho.


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## NZCowboy

ripeka said:


> I dont think there is any need to be so rude. Again, READ MY POST CAREFULLY- I also said that the kind of thoughts that I express are NOT necessarily the truth (and for the record, its not necessarily MY take on Americans); just that these are the sentiments that get expressed by Kiwis all around me about USA & Americans. Americans should know the prejudice they are up against. That was the point of my post.


Are you not a kiwi then?
I have read your post again carefully ...
You use term "we" all though the OP, that implies that you belong to this group, but now you are saying that even you belong to this group, this isn't your thinking.
These aren't your words or opinions, why use we?
I know you are new to this forum, if these aren't your words, its net etiquette, to reference to the source.


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## Eleisha

ripeka said:


> Let me be quite clear. The statements I made are not necessarily my opinion (although the attitude towards USA politics is probably also indicative of mine). I am sorry that Kiwis seem to have this prejudice against Americans. I am a 45 year old female, Pakeha (white) married to a Maori, have maori children, and my best friend is Maori and married to a Samoan who lives in NZ. So I do understand a bit about prejudice and discrimination. I do try to be open and accept people on their own merits from where-ever they come BUT my post is trying to sum up some of the cultural attitude towards Americans that I have encountered from Kiwis that I mix with. FYI my friends and family live between all the four main cities - I dont get to hear what rural NZ thinks but on most things it is usually even more close minded.
> 
> I would also have to say that anti american sentiment has possibly increased in the last few years imho.


I admit when I first read it I did see it as an attack on Americans, then read it again and saw what you were trying to say. I think it was brave of you to be so honest and tell us what some people are really thinking, it helped me to put into context much of the prejudice I encountered and why I could never break through beyond very superficial relationships with New Zealanders. All of my true friends were other immigrants from America, Australia, Egypt, Singapore etc.

It's true, the anti American sentiment has increased in the last few years, the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan and we being responsible for the global financial meltdown are the causes for that. I got sick of being told it to my face, as if I somehow had a part to play in it all and had then come over to inflict damage on New Zealand.


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## Bevdeforges

Eleisha said:


> It's true, the anti American sentiment has increased in the last few years, the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan and we being responsible for the global financial meltdown are the causes for that. I got sick of being told it to my face, as if I somehow had a part to play in it all and had then come over to inflict damage on New Zealand.


It's probably not surprising that Americans living abroad face a somewhat "defensive" reaction like this. The society in the US is simply more "outgoing" - sometimes to the point of being "in your face" - and one of the first thing many expat Americans need to learn is simply to tone it down a little bit.

Other societies are more reserved, less outgoing and, despite what the politicians and marketers try to tell Americans back home, not everyone in the world wants all the goodies that are on offer and constantly flogged to the American public.  It's all a part of what culture shock is about - adapting to living in a culture that has different (not better or worse) values, hopes and desires.
Cheers,
Bev


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## CanterburyChick

Very true Bev!


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## ripeka

NZCowboy said:


> Are you not a kiwi then?
> I have read your post again carefully ...
> You use term "we" all though the OP, that implies that you belong to this group, but now you are saying that even you belong to this group, this isn't your thinking.
> These aren't your words or opinions, why use we?
> I know you are new to this forum, if these aren't your words, its net etiquette, to reference to the source.


LOL I thought I made it clear that I was a Kiwi (at least in subsequent posts). Also that some of those attitudes, particularly that the political ones are indicative of my own thoughts (at least partially). Some of those prejudices have been mine over the years too; although many of them are not now.

Because I AM a kiwi; I use the word "we" as a collective. I see myself as belonging to and part of the culture that is kiwi for all its good and bad aspects. I can be nothing else. As these are my summation of the collective opinions of my friends, family and work colleagues (as I have experienced), I do lump myself in with them as part of the collective "we". Sorry if that is not etiquette but i find it hard to separate myself from those around me when I see myself as kiwi through and through. Perhaps this is part of living in a country that has a very small population - 99% of us are only separated by 2 degrees so it is very common that when I travel within New Zealand, to meet strangers who know people I know. Maybe this contributes to the collective sense of "we" that I feel when talking about what it is to be kiwi.

Anyway, I was just trying to be honest, to help American immigrants understand what the cultural mind set might be behind what they are encountering as many people seem quite bewildered by it. If it helps some people to understand that it is NOT their problem, then I am happy.

btw - i like the friendliness of Americans and struggle at times too with the reserved nature of kiwis. e.g. "we" kiwis basically never strike up a friendly conversation standing in a queue with strangers just to pass the time. We just stand there as if we are not surrounded by a sea of people. Usually I do try and initiate conversation with those around me and always end up feeling like I am the cultural odd bod, the complete extrovert which is ridiculous as I am very reserved, introverted and NEVER the life of the party type of person. LOL


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## Eleisha

Bevdeforges said:


> It's probably not surprising that Americans living abroad face a somewhat "defensive" reaction like this. The society in the US is simply more "outgoing" - sometimes to the point of being "in your face" - and one of the first thing many expat Americans need to learn is simply to tone it down a little bit.
> 
> Other societies are more reserved, less outgoing and, despite what the politicians and marketers try to tell Americans back home, not everyone in the world wants all the goodies that are on offer and constantly flogged to the American public.  It's all a part of what culture shock is about - adapting to living in a culture that has different (not better or worse) values, hopes and desires.
> Cheers,
> Bev


I hear what you're saying but I have been working overseas for 12 years in three different countries, plus a year backpacking around the world and I didn't have the problems fitting in that I had in New Zealand, have you ever lived there yourself? I can adapt like a chameleon and have learned to "tone it down" as you put it. It's an absolute necessity in my type of work that I be very culturally sensitive, there is nothing "American" about what I do and I don't "sell" anything, I'm trained to arrive, assess and adapt to suit the environment I'm in.

The great thing is that since I've left New Zealand my personal and professional lives are now on the up so I'm good, now. I just came here to Expat Forum try to work out what went wrong in NZ and perhaps look for some support from others who have gone through the same, not to be blamed for the abuse I suffered and be told I was suffering from "culture shock". It wasn't pleasant reading what Ripeka had to say but it has really helped me to see where the problems are and why a single person cannot solve them, no matter how hard they tried.

It's a fantastic country, if you're a Kiwi or a Brit.


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## Bevdeforges

Eleisha said:


> I just came here to Expat Forum try to work out what went wrong in NZ and perhaps look for some support from others who have gone through the same, not to be blamed for the abuse I suffered and be told I was suffering from "culture shock". It wasn't pleasant reading what Ripeka had to say but it has really helped me to see where the problems are and why a single person cannot solve them, no matter how hard they tried.
> 
> It's a fantastic country, if you're a Kiwi or a Brit.


Maybe I missed some of the context of this discussion - since I don't often visit the New Zealand part of the forum - but no one is blaming you for anything here. Americans overseas have a certain reputation that you either learn to deal with or you don't.

I get lots of questions (mostly back in the US) about the "anti-Americanism" in France, where I live. To be honest, I've never noticed any - but then again, I've been away from the US for almost 20 years now and I share many of the same views of the situation back there as the French and (apparently) the Kiwis. But that's politics and culture and usually individuals are completely different once you get to know them.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Eleisha

That's ok Bev, it just felt like people were blaming me.

Half of the problem is that New Zealand is seen as such a marvelous place by the people who are happy there, or who have never lived there, that's it's very hard to comprehend that it has these massive problems that affect people so badly.

It's not just a case of adapt and survive, change your perceptions and it will all be ok because I tried that and it didn't work. I'm ashamed to say that it defeated me and I had to leave, I'm a person who has* never *given up on something before so it was very hard. That decision which since proved to be the right one. I take some comfort in knowing that I'm not the only one this has happened to and that there are heaps of other people out there who feel the same as me.


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## jenswaters

Oh, this argument could go on forever!!

From my travels and experiences, every "country" has an opinion and point of view on pretty much every other country. Not every individual in that nation would hold true to this generic prespective, but an opinion has been formed. They are nearly always based on pre-conceived ideas and propoganda given by media. A classic example I will share is my dear Mother, who was travelling through a European country. She was there for just a few hours, spoke to 2 people (1 of whom _she_ says was rude), but according to her (and anyone who is narrow-minded enough to listen and agree with her), the _whole country_ is rude and horrible and not worth visiting!!! See?? A judgement that is passed on, generalising a whole country on a handful of experiences.

I have met and worked with my fair share of Americans, some of whom fill the stereotypical "bigger and better" role, and some of whom don't and are very self-depreciating. But I would never judge the whole country in this way, and it is unfair for anyone to be this narrowminded. Having said that, I can understand what Ripeka was trying to say and do...simply explain to the American population some of the possible obstacles that they may face culturally. This is a reserved and humble nation, and ANYBODY (American or otherwise) needs to remember and adjust to that. However, as Eleisha points out clearly, sometimes you will meet people that cannot see past their pre-conceived ideas regardless of the efforts made to change and adapt. This can happen anywhere (as my Mother made painfully obvious to me)

Different countries, different cultures, different people having different experiences. Anywhere and everywhere, people have either made the best decision of their lives, or the worst, by moving country. It's tough, but sometimes you just don't know until you try. Well done Eleisha for giving it a go. What I am super impressed with (and what many people who have left or had a bad experience don't do) is your ability to NOT slate the country you were in. You have actually put it down to "one of those things"...a life experience. I hope that your life has benefitted in some way from your time in NZ, even if it is ways you didn't expect!


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## Eleisha

I have taken some very positive things away from me, I love the country and would happily go back for on vacation maybe to ski in the winter when I can afford it. It's taught me to be a lot more cautious and to really examine the small print when looking at the possibilities for future working locations.

As for now, I'm enjoying my well earned sabbatical and feeling enthusiastic about getting out there again and giving it a go. It's given me the chance to examine Australia more closely and I think that I may have a real future here.


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## Bevdeforges

Eleisha said:


> It's not just a case of adapt and survive, change your perceptions and it will all be ok because I tried that and it didn't work.


That's a very perceptive comment. We get folks here on the forum all the time who are bound and determined to "make a new life" for themselves somewhere else in the world. Sometimes good intentions just aren't enough to make a go of it - so it's important to have a "plan B" just in case things don't work out.

One problem with Americans is that we are raised to this fairly wide-open social code, where we just introduce ourselves and expect to be "friends" fairly easily with just about anyone. In other cultures, there are steps that need to be taken and customs to be observed, and the "friendly" American can come off like an interfering boor without realizing what he or she is doing.

It's a small thing, but when I worked in Germany, everyone in the plant addressed each other as "Herr" This and "Frau" That and we never used first names. Then, the bosses would descend on the place and address people not only by their first names, but by nicknames for their first names - "Dave" instead of "David" or "Rob" instead of "Robert." The Germans go by full names, even with friends, so it's no wonder the "suits" from Corporate (Brits and Americans) were so disliked.
Cheers,
Bev


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## topcat83

Bevdeforges said:


> ...
> It's a small thing, but when I worked in Germany, everyone in the plant addressed each other as "Herr" This and "Frau" That and we never used first names. Then, the bosses would descend on the place and address people not only by their first names, but by nicknames for their first names - "Dave" instead of "David" or "Rob" instead of "Robert." The Germans go by full names, even with friends, so it's no wonder the "suits" from Corporate (Brits and Americans) were so disliked.
> ....


This made me laugh, as we've just put our foot in it big time with my Mum's solicitors secretary in the UK - and we're Brits! 
I might add that Mum's solicitor is a long-term family friend.
We turned up with Art in shorts and me in 'pedal-pusher' denims, and asked to speak to 'Liz'. The secretary came out, gave us (and our clothes) a disgusted look, and told us that 'Miss Craig will see you as soon as she is available'. I think she was a bit put out when Liz came out almost immediately and welcomed us like long lost relatives!!!


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## owlet

ripeka said:


> Rightly or wrongly WE:
> 
> a.	View your political antics on the world stage with suspicion
> 
> b. Are scathing of the arrogance with which the USA has dismissed UN directives (eg over Iraq) and initiatives such as the Kyoto Protocol – truly your arrogance on the world stage is breathtaking;
> 
> c.	Believe that your country thinks it is a law unto yourselves and we don’t respect that
> 
> d.	Feel you selfishly gobble up far too much of the world’s resources – much more than your share
> 
> e.	Believe that given the size of your country, you have had the capacity to do things like end world hunger but because it is not in your political interests to do so, you don’t bother
> 
> f.	View your extroverted nature with suspicion as some sort of attempt to dominate others by being the biggest and loudest and having a superior attitude (much as you attempt to dominate the world stage)
> 
> g.	See much of your sense of humour as being corny and simplistic (eg the only sitcoms we really like are those that rely on an ironic, more sarcastic or dry humor)
> 
> h.	Cant believe how many people in the USA seem to be gullible and just not all that intelligent (that’s the result of those day time chat shows/media/trashy magazines/Hollywood superstar silly behaviour that don’t present you in a good light)
> 
> i.	Resent that the USA sets a trend and a few short years later we have it happening in our society eg increasing obesity. Given media influence and the economic power of your corporates, we feel powerless to stop this and really really don’t like it.


I'm not offended by Ripeka at all. She has stated she doesn't necessarily agree with most of this mentality (which, no matter how justified, does become bigotry if it is allowed to inform one's treatment of an individual simply b/c of her nationality). 

As an American who's traveled abroad, I've experienced this type of discrimination from people of many nationalities (I was in western Europe and UK at the outset of the Iraqi War). Fortunately for me, I tend to agree with this assessment. There are serious problems in America--though, to be fair, every country has its share of imperfections. The fact that I acknowledge America's problems and share my exasperation has enabled me to bond with several people who were initially hostile, and (I hope) has left them a little more open-minded than before. 

The thing is to have the right attitude from the start: expect this to happen (unfair, yes, but the world is full of inequities); make it clear that you agree with the other person to some degree (which you must--otherwise, why are you an expatriate?), and be prepared (if you do want to form lasting relationships there) to have a respectful discussion about the state of America (politically, economically, globally); and--this last is really important--_make sure you know your stuff._ If you don't, you may be seen as inauthentic, spineless, and/or a suck-up. Oh, and don't take what is said during that conversation personally--it's about America, not you--or it just may get a little more personal than you or the other person would like. 

On that note, none of this was directed at any particular thread respondent. I'm just sharing a strategy (well, less strategy than respect for others, objectivity, and rational discourse) that's worked for me.


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## UglyAmerican

A friend shared this forum post with me, knowing that I am soon to leave NZ and that I've had a long history of difficulties as an American living here. 

Interesting reading. Lots of generalizations, on all sides, which perfectly exemplify what I don't like about being an American Expat. 

All of what Ripeka stated about how NZ views America is true - in a general sense. I'd say her assessment was quite measured and that in fact the average view of an American by Kiwis is far more hostile. And yes, sadly, all of us are tarred with the same brush. 

My experience in NZ has put me off living overseas ANYWHERE again -- heck, it's practically put me off traveling any more. But I'll regain my confidence.

Good luck to you, NZ. You won't be missed, and I'm sure the feeling is mutual.


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## sfed

*Ripeka--you're doing a service....*

...to the many Americans with 'stars in their eyes' who dream of moving to NZ. What you have written has a lot of truth. I find it interesting that much of the criticism being leveled at this post is from people who do NOT live in NZ!!

We have lived here four years and most of the true friends we have made are fellow ex-pats either from Europe or the US. The only Kiwis we are friends with are those that have lived in the US or lived abroad and therefore have a less insular view of the world. 

It's all well and good for Kiwis to say that they judge people individually. But, it can be rare to find employers that will hire Americans. There is overt discrimination when it comes to hiring. [NOTE: this is not true in the IT industry which HAS to hire Americans due to the lack of qualified New Zealand applicants.] It's bad enough that it will be difficult to find friends, but you will have real problems if you cannot find employment.

Eleisha--I'm so sorry that things did not work out for you. We will be leaving ourselves soon. Although I still like NZ, my husband has hated the last 2 years. And, I was not willing to have him move back to the US without me.

~Stacey


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## Bevdeforges

sfed said:


> ...to the many Americans with 'stars in their eyes' who dream of moving to NZ. What you have written has a lot of truth. I find it interesting that much of the criticism being leveled at this post is from people who do NOT live in NZ!!


Stacey, I don't think anyone here has denied the truth in the original post. But it's not limited to NZ. You find pretty much the same attitudes throughout Europe, and I suspect, most other places.

The point is, that this goes along with the notion of being an expat. Especially an American living abroad since it's the "American way of life" that is what seems to be promoted and marketed all over the world lately. And perhaps a bit due to the fact that Americans tend to be a bit isolated and maybe a little defensive when it comes to other cultures. (Maybe that affects the Kiwis, too.)

If you take a look at some of the other forums here, I know you'll find comments about how the locals only hire their own - certainly in France, and probably in many of the other forums, too. And I've heard many of the same sorts of criticisms leveled at the Brits by French people here in France (kind of a traditional bias, I guess). When I lived in the UK, I learned of the rather appalling reputation the Germans have as vacationers when outside Germany - and living in Germany I found that much of it was true.
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## NZCowboy

NZCowboy said:


> Are you not a kiwi then?
> I have read your post again carefully ...
> You use term "we" all though the OP, that implies that you belong to this group, but now you are saying that even you belong to this group, this isn't your thinking.
> These aren't your words or opinions, why use we?
> I know you are new to this forum, if these aren't your words, its net etiquette, to reference to the source.


This information "why we hate the americans" is a global thing, and has been doing the rounds for ages, its not unique to kiwis.
Any Expat American should be a aware of this global feeling. Do some "googling" and there is heaps of websites and articles expressing the same views.
I have been searching for a British newspaper article that was printed over 3 years ago which says similar things, but haven't found it yet. But I did find an email from I received 20months ago - "6 reasons why we hate america." and it has the first six reasons nearly word for word, but from a British slant not Kiwi. Thats why I was asking about the source. 

I have been waiting for your following up, giving expats in NZ information that is unique to NZ, not a just a global view such as..
Why Kiwis Hate the Frenchies
a/ French serect service had the audacity to sink a ship in a NZ port.
b/ Past nuclear testing in the Pacific
c/ They keep knocking us out of the Rugby World Cup
etc etc


----------



## jojo

NZCowboy said:


> This information "why we hate the americans" is a global thing, and has been doing the rounds for ages, its not unique to kiwis.
> Any Expat American should be a aware of this global feeling. Do some "googling" and there is heaps of websites and articles expressing the same views.
> I have been searching for a British newspaper article that was printed over 3 years ago which says similar things, but haven't found it yet. But I did find an email from I received 20months ago - "6 reasons why we hate america." and it has the first six reasons nearly word for word, but from a British slant not Kiwi. Thats why I was asking about the source.
> 
> I have been waiting for your following up, giving expats in NZ information that is unique to NZ, not a just a global view such as..
> Why Kiwis Hate the Frenchies
> a/ French serect service had the audacity to sink a ship in a NZ port.
> b/ Past nuclear testing in the Pacific
> c/ They keep knocking us out of the Rugby World Cup
> etc etc


People are such sheep arent they!!! How can anyone dislike everyone who happens to be born in a certain country beats me!! The only thing I can say thats vaguely negative about "americans" is I'm not keen on the accent, but there are lots of accents I'm not keen on, but who cares, its not going to influence whether I like the person or not. Stereotyping shouldnt be taken seriously!

As for american politics - well, they do tend to have taken it upon themselves to be the world police and I question their motives. But thats not the peoples fault. I'm sure if I looked into other countries politics I'd not like them either!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## topcat83

jojo said:


> ....As for american politics - well, they do tend to have taken it upon themselves to be the world police and I question their motives. But that's not the peoples fault. I'm sure if I looked into other countries politics I'd not like them either!!!...


Hear hear! let's not judge everyone by their native country's politics. The majority that have escaped to other countries (or are considering it) have generally broken the mould and are therefore nothing like the 'stereotype' of their country anyway!


----------



## Bevdeforges

Oddly enough, I think there's plenty of truth in the national stereotypes. I know the national stereotypes are prevalent here in Europe - the Brits don't want to be part of Europe, or the Germans are all picky about rules and laws, and the French, well don't get me started on the French...but most of those stereotypes are oh, so true... 

And there are good reasons why these stereotypes exist. One issue with the Americans, however, is that they seem to be overly sensitive about "critical" judgments that they find to be "against" their country. It's not true of every American, but it's a common enough trait that it does put some people off Americans.
(It's definitely one of the traits I find most annoying about my fellow countrymen.)

I was really tempted to move this whole discussion into the General Expat Discussions, because I do think that Americans have an image problem when moving just about anywhere overseas and it's interesting (to me, anyhow) exploring just why that is.
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## jojo

......... of course, I've thought of a German stereotype - they always get up early when they're on holiday and nick all the sunbeds!!!!!!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## topcat83

jojo said:


> ......... of course, I've thought of a German stereotype - they always get up early when they're on holiday and nick all the sunbeds!!!!!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


 We had one holiday where some little darlings (hm - could have been my sons!) got up early enough to go and neatly pile any towels that had been placed on sunbeds overnight on a table in corner! Caused shouts from one corner, and cheers from the other!

I think Bev's idea of moving this to the general forum is a good idea. Anyone disagree?


----------



## northernlassy40

*views against Americans*

I Totally agree with all of your comments, and speaking as an English person, we feel the same, its just the total arrogance that is astounding, do they Honestly believe they are the superior race ??


ripeka said:


> We generally don’t like or trust Americans. Sad but true. Sorry. If you are an American, make sure you know other Americans that you plan on socialising with when you come out to NZ. Otherwise unfortunately, as many of you are finding out, you are likely to remain socially isolated. Out of all the English speaking world, Kiwis dislike Americans the most (probably unfairly)
> .
> Don’t shoot the messenger but here is a bit of a heads up about how we Kiwis think. Please try not to be offended; be aware that these are sweeping generalisations, they are NOT necessarily the truth of the situation but I have outlined some of the ways that Kiwis generally perceive the USA and Americans.
> 
> Rightly or wrongly WE:
> 
> a.	View your political antics on the world stage with suspicion
> 
> b. Are scathing of the arrogance with which the USA has dismissed UN directives (eg over Iraq) and initiatives such as the Kyoto Protocol – truly your arrogance on the world stage is breathtaking;
> 
> c.	Believe that your country thinks it is a law unto yourselves and we don’t respect that
> 
> d.	Feel you selfishly gobble up far too much of the world’s resources – much more than your share
> 
> e.	Believe that given the size of your country, you have had the capacity to do things like end world hunger but because it is not in your political interests to do so, you don’t bother
> 
> f.	View your extroverted nature with suspicion as some sort of attempt to dominate others by being the biggest and loudest and having a superior attitude (much as you attempt to dominate the world stage)
> 
> g.	See much of your sense of humour as being corny and simplistic (eg the only sitcoms we really like are those that rely on an ironic, more sarcastic or dry humor)
> 
> h.	Cant believe how many people in the USA seem to be gullible and just not all that intelligent (that’s the result of those day time chat shows/media/trashy magazines/Hollywood superstar silly behaviour that don’t present you in a good light)
> 
> i.	Resent that the USA sets a trend and a few short years later we have it happening in our society eg increasing obesity. Given media influence and the economic power of your corporates, we feel powerless to stop this and really really don’t like it.
> 
> These are some of the ways we think and the attitudes you are up against. Thought you should know then you wont be surprised when you don’t get a fair welcome and open offers of friendship.


----------



## Eleisha

northernlassy40 said:


> I Totally agree with all of your comments, and speaking as an English person, we feel the same, its just the total arrogance that is astounding, do they Honestly believe they are the superior race ??


Why not leave a marker for it here and then move it? I may not be the only one who never reads the general forum


----------



## jojo

Eleisha said:


> Why not leave a marker for it here and then move it? I may not be the only one who never reads the general forum


http://www.expatforum.com/expats/general-expat-discussions/55501-american-image-problem.html



Jo xxxx


----------



## vona62

ripeka said:


> We generally don’t like or trust Americans. Sad but true. Sorry. If you are an American, make sure you know other Americans that you plan on socialising with when you come out to NZ. Otherwise unfortunately, as many of you are finding out, you are likely to remain socially isolated. Out of all the English speaking world, Kiwis dislike Americans the most (probably unfairly)
> .
> Don’t shoot the messenger but here is a bit of a heads up about how we Kiwis think. Please try not to be offended; be aware that these are sweeping generalisations, they are NOT necessarily the truth of the situation but I have outlined some of the ways that Kiwis generally perceive the USA and Americans.
> 
> Rightly or wrongly WE:
> 
> a.	View your political antics on the world stage with suspicion
> 
> b. Are scathing of the arrogance with which the USA has dismissed UN directives (eg over Iraq) and initiatives such as the Kyoto Protocol – truly your arrogance on the world stage is breathtaking;
> 
> c.	Believe that your country thinks it is a law unto yourselves and we don’t respect that
> 
> d.	Feel you selfishly gobble up far too much of the world’s resources – much more than your share
> 
> e.	Believe that given the size of your country, you have had the capacity to do things like end world hunger but because it is not in your political interests to do so, you don’t bother
> 
> f.	View your extroverted nature with suspicion as some sort of attempt to dominate others by being the biggest and loudest and having a superior attitude (much as you attempt to dominate the world stage)
> 
> g.	See much of your sense of humour as being corny and simplistic (eg the only sitcoms we really like are those that rely on an ironic, more sarcastic or dry humor)
> 
> h.	Cant believe how many people in the USA seem to be gullible and just not all that intelligent (that’s the result of those day time chat shows/media/trashy magazines/Hollywood superstar silly behaviour that don’t present you in a good light)
> 
> i.	Resent that the USA sets a trend and a few short years later we have it happening in our society eg increasing obesity. Given media influence and the economic power of your corporates, we feel powerless to stop this and really really don’t like it.
> 
> These are some of the ways we think and the attitudes you are up against. Thought you should know then you wont be surprised when you don’t get a fair welcome and open offers of friendship.


Hi Ripeka

I think you fairly and correctly described the situation and general consensus of opinion very acurately. While the individual US citizen in my experience living and working in the US can be generous and decent minded the US is not managed or has international policies made in the same spirit. 
I am a 4th generation NZ'der and like all my preceeding generations of males been required to enter service for my country in defence of other's interests usually US big business interests.

The flak you received from non NZ citizens who while living outside their own have probably never been to NZ or ever required to serve for their the country was interesting. 
Keep the faith and keep the US interests/agenda off shore.


----------



## christopherm

ripeka said:


> a.	View your political antics on the world stage with suspicion


As do I.



ripeka said:


> b. Are scathing of the arrogance with which the USA has dismissed UN directives (eg over Iraq) and initiatives such as the Kyoto Protocol – truly your arrogance on the world stage is breathtaking;


Completely agree.



ripeka said:


> c.	Believe that your country thinks it is a law unto yourselves and we don’t respect that


Quite the self-rightous *********.



ripeka said:


> d.	Feel you selfishly gobble up far too much of the world’s resources – much more than your share


It's disgusting



ripeka said:


> e.	Believe that given the size of your country, you have had the capacity to do things like end world hunger but because it is not in your political interests to do so, you don’t bother


Solving the world's problems shouldn't be put upon the shoulders of the USA but should be put upon the world itself.



ripeka said:


> f.	View your extroverted nature with suspicion as some sort of attempt to dominate others by being the biggest and loudest and having a superior attitude (much as you attempt to dominate the world stage)


Absolutely correct.



ripeka said:


> g.	See much of your sense of humour as being corny and simplistic (eg the only sitcoms we really like are those that rely on an ironic, more sarcastic or dry humor)


Corny and simple can be fun. I think what you may mean is the sitcom humor where there is no actual joke but some derogatory comment said in a way which signals others to laugh. Agree, it is absolutely wretched. I myself prefer British humor where the jokes are well thought-out. 



ripeka said:


> h.	Cant believe how many people in the USA seem to be gullible and just not all that intelligent (that’s the result of those day time chat shows/media/trashy magazines/Hollywood superstar silly behaviour that don’t present you in a good light)


Again, it's disgusting

I was raised by my British mother which I think had the effect of imparting a more British than American attitude in me. That is why I can appreciate why people feel this way towards Americans because I feel the same way. The American attitude is one the primary factors behind my decision to find residence outside the USA.

So I pose this question: If the general attitude towards Americans is unfavourable what is the attitude towards former Americans? And by former Americans I am referring to Americans which have become New Zealand citizens and have renounced their American citizenship.


----------



## topcat83

TheCodeWerks said:


> So I pose this question: If the general attitude towards Americans is unfavourable what is the attitude towards former Americans? And by former Americans I am referring to Americans which have become New Zealand citizens and have renounced their American citizenship.


I'd say that if you come over with the attitude you have, you'll be welcomed with open arms. It's not Americans that NZ people hava an attitude with - just American 'typical' attitudes. Normally the ones that escape don't come with the attitude!

NZ'ers (especially the young ones) are pretty liberal and open minded. They take people how they find them.


----------



## Gimme5

Could this be another case of someone merely verbalizing something that everyone knew to be true but was too afraid to say it?


----------



## Gimme5

Interesting that people go on here about the "attitudes" of Americans, maybe it's the attitude of Kiwis towards other nationalities that's a problem. A very good Asian friend of mine who has been living in NZ for the past 8 years and had lived in other parts of the world including the US and Norway once told me that NZ is the only country where they felt unwelcome by the people despite their best efforts. The reception they have received was at best superficial, not to mention the dreaded "R" word. Their experience where similar to other posters here where their only real friends were other immigrants. Despite having their Kiwi neighbours and "friends" over for BBQs and meals, their invitations were never (not once) reciprocated. Personally, I have lost count the number of occasions where I've heard Kiwis make disparaging comments about Americans, Aussies, Brits, Chinese, South Africans, Japanese, Indians, etc. So it may not just be Americans per se.


----------



## topcat83

Gimme5 said:


> Interesting that people go on here about the "attitudes" of Americans, maybe it's the attitude of Kiwis towards other nationalities that's a problem. A very good Asian friend of mine who has been living in NZ for the past 8 years and had lived in other parts of the world including the US and Norway once told me that NZ is the only country where they felt unwelcome by the people despite their best efforts. The reception they have received was at best superficial, not to mention the dreaded "R" word. Their experience where similar to other posters here where their only real friends were other immigrants. Despite having their Kiwi neighbours and "friends" over for BBQs and meals, their invitations were never (not once) reciprocated. Personally, I have lost count the number of occasions where I've heard Kiwis make disparaging comments about Americans, Aussies, Brits, Chinese, South Africans, Japanese, Indians, etc. So it may not just be Americans per se.


One thing I love over here is that it is OK to be politically incorrect. And usually it is taken in the right way. I work in an environment where it is OK for the girl I work with to make jokes about gay men to her best friend two desks away (who is gay) and for him to make jokes to her about picking up men in bars (she's married!) It is so refreshing - they both know they are joking. Similarly Kiwis can make comments that in many 'politically correct' countries would be seen as racist/sexist/ageist etc. But it is recognised that it is the context of the comment or joke that often makes it acceptable or not.

Obviously some times things do go too far (see what happened to Paul Henry). And some people ARE prejudiced. That's life! 

I think sometimes the political correctness in other countries (where people are afraid of saying anything in case it is misinterpreted) means when they arrive here they find it rather shocking and don't understand it. 

And cultural interpretations and ways can cause problems too.

I'll give you an example. There was a Chinese guy on this forum some time ago that was upset because his factory workmates were (he thought) making fun of him, and had given him a nickname. He was smiling in front of them, but really upset about it. But my interpretation was that actually the reason they were joking with him and giving him a nickname was because they _liked him and had accepted him_. Giving someone a nickname in a factory environment is quite a rite of passage. I'd have been more worried if they _hadn't_ given him one!


----------



## FrancisJames

The trouble in New Zealand is that people take being un-PC to the extreme. 

You used Paul Henry as an example but he had a massive outpouring of support from people in New Zealand, the only reason why he went is because he put the PM in a difficult position by making racist comments about the Governor General (who is the Queens's representive in New Zealand) he got away with so much more up until that point and people loved him for what he said.


> I'll give you an example. There was a Chinese guy on this forum some time ago that was upset because his factory workmates were (he thought) making fun of him, and had given him a nickname. He was smiling in front of them, but really upset about it. But my interpretation was that actually the reason they were joking with him and giving him a nickname was because they liked him and had accepted him. Giving someone a nickname in a factory environment is quite a rite of passage. I'd have been more worried if they hadn't given him one!


What was the nickname they gave him?


----------



## topcat83

FrancisJames said:


> The trouble in New Zealand is that people take being un-PC to the extreme.
> 
> You used Paul Henry as an example but he had a massive outpouring of support from people in New Zealand, the only reason why he went is because he put the PM in a difficult position by making racist comments about the Governor General (who is the Queens's representive in New Zealand) he got away with so much more up until that point and people loved him for what he said.
> 
> 
> What was the nickname they gave him?


Oh no Paul Henry didn't get the support you think - the vast, vast majority of NZ'ers and immigrants that I have spoken to consider that he went too far. As per usual, it is the newspapers (usually Rupert Murdocks) that choose to represent what they want to.


----------



## FrancisJames

Yes he went too far, but no one stopped him until he made the comments about the governor general. It was only after that that he got hauled up for the Dik**** comments. Up until then he was very much loved and good for the ratings. 

I'm not sure I agree with you about the newspapers mis-representing it, I recall his TV station giving them his blessing, didn't they make some comment about him saying what the rest of us were thinking?

Not me, I was thinking "what a d*ck" but got the feeling that if I'd voiced that opinion I would have been called un-pc and to lighten up, was being far too sensitive, he was only joking, etc.


----------



## FrancisJames

P.S. did you recall what the nickname was that Chinese person was given by his workmates?


----------



## Gimme5

topcat83 said:


> One thing I love over here is that it is OK to be politically incorrect. And usually it is taken in the right way. I work in an environment where it is OK for the girl I work with to make jokes about gay men to her best friend two desks away (who is gay) and for him to make jokes to her about picking up men in bars (she's married!) It is so refreshing - they both know they are joking. Similarly Kiwis can make comments that in many 'politically correct' countries would be seen as racist/sexist/ageist etc. But it is recognised that it is the context of the comment or joke that often makes it acceptable or not.
> 
> Obviously some times things do go too far (see what happened to Paul Henry). And some people ARE prejudiced. That's life!
> 
> I think sometimes the political correctness in other countries (where people are afraid of saying anything in case it is misinterpreted) means when they arrive here they find it rather shocking and don't understand it.
> 
> And cultural interpretations and ways can cause problems too.
> 
> I'll give you an example. There was a Chinese guy on this forum some time ago that was upset because his factory workmates were (he thought) making fun of him, and had given him a nickname. He was smiling in front of them, but really upset about it. But my interpretation was that actually the reason they were joking with him and giving him a nickname was because they _liked him and had accepted him_. Giving someone a nickname in a factory environment is quite a rite of passage. I'd have been more worried if they _hadn't_ given him one!


"There was a Chinese guy on this forum some time ago that was upset because his factory workmates were (he thought) making fun of him, and had given him a nickname." 

Personally, I wouldn't be so quick to offer my interpretation and to pass judgement on someone based on scant information and when you do not have first hand info. You have little idea what was going on at the workplace and whether or not that was the only incident. But then again, I'm not you. I can see why you fit right in to the culture here.


----------



## NZCowboy

FrancisJames,
As I pointed out in another thread on Paul Henry, and his views being representative of NZer's.

Are these really Paul Henrys personal views, or is it Paul Henry performer - breakfast show host/shock jock/talk back radio host who knows what to say to get the switchboard to light up. The Breakfast Show, was/is an interactive show(much like talkback), looking for public reponse/feedback via txt and email. His job was to evoke reaction. Don't confuse the artist/performer with the real person. 

The Dik**** and GG controversies were the the final straw, there was his comments on facial hair of the Greenpeace spokeswoman, comments on Gays, comments on Susan Boyle etc, people tuned in for the "cringe factor", you always knew at some stage he was going to go to far. The talk of the water cooler at work was "I can't believe that the idiot Paul Henry actually said that!!" It was like watching a car wreck, in slow motion, you always knew the end result but you can't turn away.

His views are only one persons views/opinion, not everyones, just like your views on immigration to NZ are not the same as the 100's thousands of immigrates who are happy in NZ. 

.... and finally, Paul Henry was raised, educated and started his broadcasting career in UK ... so it could be argued that his views are more typical of that of an immigrant rather than that of a NZer ).

I pleased to hear you are happy in Aussie, NZ isn't to everyones taste, as no where is perfect. But in todays global world alot of people are realising, you don't need to live in one country for all your life, and you can move around, living in a country that best suits your needs at a particular stage of life. IMO NZers are leading this trend, they realise that NZ has its limitations, as it is only a small country miles from anywhere, they leave to advance their career, in search of oversea's experiences and opportunities or just increase their wealth and most return eventually, this one will be returning to NZ in 4 months time.


----------



## topcat83

Gimme5 said:


> "There was a Chinese guy on this forum some time ago that was upset because his factory workmates were (he thought) making fun of him, and had given him a nickname."
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't be so quick to offer my interpretation and to pass judgement on someone based on scant information and when you do not have first hand info. You have little idea what was going on at the workplace and whether or not that was the only incident. But then again, I'm not you. I can see why you fit right in to the culture here.


Methinks you're trying a wind-up here, Gimme5..... Everyone to their own games


----------



## smithpamela

*Expat US*



ripeka said:


> We generally don’t like or trust Americans. Sad but true. Sorry. If you are an American, make sure you know other Americans that you plan on socialising with when you come out to NZ. Otherwise unfortunately, as many of you are finding out, you are likely to remain socially isolated. Out of all the English speaking world, Kiwis dislike Americans the most (probably unfairly)
> .
> Don’t shoot the messenger but here is a bit of a heads up about how we Kiwis think. Please try not to be offended; be aware that these are sweeping generalisations, they are NOT necessarily the truth of the situation but I have outlined some of the ways that Kiwis generally perceive the USA and Americans.
> 
> Rightly or wrongly WE:
> 
> a.	View your political antics on the world stage with suspicion
> 
> b. Are scathing of the arrogance with which the USA has dismissed UN directives (eg over Iraq) and initiatives such as the Kyoto Protocol – truly your arrogance on the world stage is breathtaking;
> 
> c.	Believe that your country thinks it is a law unto yourselves and we don’t respect that
> 
> d.	Feel you selfishly gobble up far too much of the world’s resources – much more than your share
> 
> e.	Believe that given the size of your country, you have had the capacity to do things like end world hunger but because it is not in your political interests to do so, you don’t bother
> 
> f.	View your extroverted nature with suspicion as some sort of attempt to dominate others by being the biggest and loudest and having a superior attitude (much as you attempt to dominate the world stage)
> 
> g.	See much of your sense of humour as being corny and simplistic (eg the only sitcoms we really like are those that rely on an ironic, more sarcastic or dry humor)
> 
> h.	Cant believe how many people in the USA seem to be gullible and just not all that intelligent (that’s the result of those day time chat shows/media/trashy magazines/Hollywood superstar silly behaviour that don’t present you in a good light)
> 
> i.	Resent that the USA sets a trend and a few short years later we have it happening in our society eg increasing obesity. Given media influence and the economic power of your corporates, we feel powerless to stop this and really really don’t like it.
> 
> These are some of the ways we think and the attitudes you are up against. Thought you should know then you wont be surprised when you don’t get a fair welcome and open offers of friendship.


Wow! I have only been in New Zealand for 5 months and have had a wonderful experience with most of the people I have met. My husband and I have an active social life and good friends and neighbors. I can't change the social structure in the US or in New Zealand for that matter and hope people I meet from all countries accept or reject me as an individual. The US was very good for me during the time I lived there but I chose to live in New Zealand; each country has advantages and things that could be improved.


----------



## FrancisJames

Are you married to a New Zealander and did you slot into the social life he'd already established for himself in New Zealand?


----------



## smithpamela

FrancisJames said:


> Are you married to a New Zealander and did you slot into the social life he'd already established for himself in New Zealand?


I married another expat from the US but he has been in New Zealand for a number of years. He tells me that he has never felt unwelcome or disliked for being from the states. That being said, we both have traveled a great deal and think that we can see both the good and not so good aspects of US life. We also try to keep current on world events and global politics.


----------



## Bozeman

Wow. I guess we must be truly fortunate. We have lived in New Zealand for nearly three years and have never felt unwelcome, shut out or discriminated against. We have Kiwi friends and expat friends and we do get invited by all to their homes for dinner.

The US is, of course, a big target and takes hits from all corners. It doesn't bother me a bit. I'm proud to be an American but I certainly don't agree with - or defend - many aspects of US policy.

We've lived outside the US for many years and I guess we've learned to go with the local flow. I guess we also tend to foster friendships with people that wouldn't dream of judging others on the basis of their nationalities.


----------



## topcat83

Bozeman said:


> Wow. I guess we must be truly fortunate. We have lived in New Zealand for nearly three years and have never felt unwelcome, shut out or discriminated against. We have Kiwi friends and expat friends and we do get invited by all to their homes for dinner.
> 
> The US is, of course, a big target and takes hits from all corners. It doesn't bother me a bit. I'm proud to be an American but I certainly don't agree with - or defend - many aspects of US policy.
> 
> We've lived outside the US for many years and I guess we've learned to go with the local flow. I guess we also tend to foster friendships with people that wouldn't dream of judging others on the basis of their nationalities.


Hi Bozeman - welcome to the Forum.

Glad you've found it so friendly over here - we certainly have. I guess in any country or community there will be those that don't like 'outsiders', but what a shame that everyone else gets tarred with the same brush!


----------



## FrancisJames

Bozeman said:


> Wow. I guess we must be truly fortunate. We have lived in New Zealand for nearly three years and have never felt unwelcome, shut out or discriminated against. We have Kiwi friends and expat friends and we do get invited by all to their homes for dinner.
> 
> The US is, of course, a big target and takes hits from all corners. It doesn't bother me a bit. I'm proud to be an American but I certainly don't agree with - or defend - many aspects of US policy.
> 
> We've lived outside the US for many years and I guess we've learned to go with the local flow. I guess we also tend to foster friendships with people that wouldn't dream of judging others on the basis of their nationalities.


Hi Bozeman, what's it like in the workplace where you aren't able to chose so easily the people you surround yourself with? Also, do you have children and how do they get on at school and with their peers?


----------



## Bozeman

FrancisJames said:


> Hi Bozeman, what's it like in the workplace where you aren't able to chose so easily the people you surround yourself with? Also, do you have children and how do they get on at school and with their peers?


Hi FJ, from a work perspective I guess I'm in a special situation in that I'm the general manager of the company. I suppose people are less likely to throw darts at the GM... As mentioned, we have lived outside the US for many years. Most of my professional experience has been in Asia. I'm definitely an American but perhaps I have developed a more international persona over the years (and I have never been a loud know-it-all type). Whatever it is, it seems to work here. The kids (who have never lived in the US) get along fantastically at school and at sport. They've grown up mixing with other cultures and it seems to come natural to them.

I get good-natured ribbing for being an American but I send it right back and we all have a laugh. We try to fit in and don't take things too seriously. I'm sincerely surprised that some have experienced so much difficulty.


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## vona62

I'm a Kiwi/Australian expat since 1975, lived and worked all over the world including 12 months in US on a fellowship. 
My work has on a number of occasions taken me inside situations where the 'nuts and bolts' of various developments are exposed. 
All to often what is evident is the amount of manipulation that is perpatrated by US agencies/political entities in the sole interests of US policy. These same people will defend their actions by saying it's for the greater good etc but 9 out of 10 times they screw up or the intent is diverted by/in the interests of US military big business; i.e Bush's Iraqi 'weapons of mass destruction fiasco'. 
Even though told by the WMD inspectors Australian leader there were no weapons, the US agenda was weapon sales and oil.

Thats the America I don't like or want living in my home country. On a personal level the only time I have been embarassed for being an Anglo Saxon was caused by a mixed group of middle aged US citizens in an airport in Turkey.

While waiting for their departure this group witnessed a group of Turk men traditionally greeting each other on arrival by a share cheek kiss. The US ******** started loudly patomiming the same action, Turks started getting upset so I told this bunch of yobbos to shut it before it got serious. 

In Turkish I explained to the Turks these people were retarded and on a special escorted holiday and to ignore their behaviour.


----------



## Bozeman

vona62 said:


> I'm a Kiwi/Australian expat since 1975, lived and worked all over the world including 12 months in US on a fellowship.
> My work has on a number of occasions taken me inside situations where the 'nuts and bolts' of various developments are exposed.
> All to often what is evident is the amount of manipulation that is perpatrated by US agencies/political entities in the sole interests of US policy. These same people will defend their actions by saying it's for the greater good etc but 9 out of 10 times they screw up or the intent is diverted by/in the interests of US military big business; i.e Bush's Iraqi 'weapons of mass destruction fiasco'.
> Even though told by the WMD inspectors Australian leader there were no weapons, the US agenda was weapon sales and oil.
> 
> Thats the America I don't like or want living in my home country. On a personal level the only time I have been embarassed for being an Anglo Saxon was caused by a mixed group of middle aged US citizens in an airport in Turkey.
> 
> While waiting for their departure this group witnessed a group of Turk men traditionally greeting each other on arrival by a share cheek kiss. The US ******** started loudly patomiming the same action, Turks started getting upset so I told this bunch of yobbos to shut it before it got serious.
> 
> In Turkish I explained to the Turks these people were retarded and on a special escorted holiday and to ignore their behaviour.


Vona, most Americans would have been even more mortified than you by the situation you have described. Painting us all with that brush is not only grossly unfair, it's down right silly. If push comes to shove, I can come up with my only listing of crass behaviour demonstrated by Aussies, Kiwis and any number of other nationalities. The point of course is that no country has a monopoly on conduct perfect or otherwise.


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## topcat83

Bozeman said:


> Vona, most Americans would have been even more mortified than you by the situation you have described. Painting us all with that brush is not only grossly unfair, it's down right silly. If push comes to shove, I can come up with my only listing of crass behaviour demonstrated by Aussies, Kiwis and any number of other nationalities. The point of course is that no country has a monopoly on conduct perfect or otherwise.


Lol I can remember being highly embarrassed by a group of English Northerners on our normal commuter ferry from Auckland one evening. They were loud, brash, shirtless - and bright pink from sunburn (and proud of it!). I felt like saying to them that they looked like the biggest bunch of idiots this side of the Equator, and that everyone was wondering when they'd succumb to skin cancer!


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## saltybroad

Hello all, 

This is my first post and it may be an unwise place to first dip my toes, but as brashness is the American way (see? some of us are capable of ironic humour) I'll just jump in.

Let me first say that I appreciate all the different perspectives. I would like to make a couple of points myself: 

1) The US is a country of 300 million people. Three. Hundred. Million. 
One should not suppose that we all think/act alike. 

2) The US political landscape and general cultural erosion are among the many reasons that we have decided to leave the US. It seems to me that the common sense view should be that if you have gone to all the effort and expense to leave a place - maybe you shouldn't be held responsible for it's flaws! Seeing as how you probably left for many of those same reasons? 

I'm a bit concerned by some of the bitterness expressed in previous posts, but am consoling myself with the fact that my idea of what constitutes "quality of life" is probably more in tune with that of the average Kiwi than the average American. It's nice to "meet" you all!


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## topcat83

saltybroad said:


> Hello all,
> 
> This is my first post and it may be an unwise place to first dip my toes, but as brashness is the American way (see? some of us are capable of ironic humour) I'll just jump in.
> 
> Let me first say that I appreciate all the different perspectives. I would like to make a couple of points myself:
> 
> 1) The US is a country of 300 million people. Three. Hundred. Million.
> One should not suppose that we all think/act alike.
> 
> 2) The US political landscape and general cultural erosion are among the many reasons that we have decided to leave the US. It seems to me that the common sense view should be that if you have gone to all the effort and expense to leave a place - maybe you shouldn't be held responsible for it's flaws! Seeing as how you probably left for many of those same reasons?
> 
> I'm a bit concerned by some of the bitterness expressed in previous posts, but am consoling myself with the fact that my idea of what constitutes "quality of life" is probably more in tune with that of the average Kiwi than the average American. It's nice to "meet" you all!


Hi Saltybroad - welcome to the Forum.

Love your post - and it sounds like you'll fit in fine! And as you say, we shouldn't be tarring all Americans with the same brush!


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## christopherm

saltybroad said:


> 2) The US political landscape and general cultural erosion are among the many reasons that we have decided to leave the US. It seems to me that the common sense view should be that if you have gone to all the effort and expense to leave a place - maybe you shouldn't be held responsible for it's flaws! Seeing as how you probably left for many of those same reasons?


That is one of the biggest reasons I am looking to emigrate from the US. I also like the fact the total population of NZ is half of the population in the county of Los Angeles, which is where I live now.

The top reasons I am looking to leave the US are for are about politics, tax policy, the poor mindset and attitude of the general american public, and that I would like my future children to have a better education and understanding of the world around them. I feel that american culture breeds children that are very US centric which makes them, generally, very self-centered citizens. Being and born a raised US citizen I am extremely thankful for having a British mother because I do not think I would be as balanced as I feel about the views I have of the US from other countries.



saltybroad said:


> I'm a bit concerned by some of the bitterness expressed in previous posts, but am consoling myself with the fact that my idea of what constitutes "quality of life" is probably more in tune with that of the average Kiwi than the average American. It's nice to "meet" you all!


From what I have gathered from these boards and from trying to be a "citizen of the world" I feel I know this: Be respectful, humble, patient, and understanding of fellow humans no matter where you are. If you are, you will likely get on just fine (disclaimer: may not be suitable for all countries). 



saltybroad said:


> Love your post - and it sounds like you'll fit in fine! And as you say, we shouldn't be tarring all Americans with the same brush!


While no one should be tarring anyone with the same brush, personally, I have to say that Americans (in general) have worked very hard, knowingly or not, to warrant that kind of treatment.


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## Yvonne.72

christopherm said:


> I feel that american culture breeds children that are very US centric which makes them, generally, very self-centered citizens.


What do you think the New Zealand culture breeds in its children? It has a much smaller population and is an island isolated from much of the world?

I've not seen them but there are a series of ads running on television at the moment promoting New Zealand to Kiwis, telling us how great our country is and what it is to be a Kiwi. Does a similar thing happen in the States?


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## christopherm

Yvonne.72 said:


> What do you think the New Zealand culture breeds in its children? It has a much smaller population and is an island isolated from much of the world?


While I cannot speak from actual experience I cannot imagine it as being as poor as I view it to be here. There is nothing wrong with national pride, but I think that a large portion of the US takes it to excess due to, for lack of a better term, propaganda. We're 'bred' to believe that we are the best and that the world could not / would not exists without us. I think this breeds an alarmingly amount of arrogance.




Yvonne.72 said:


> I've not seen them but there are a series of ads running on television at the moment promoting New Zealand to Kiwis, telling us how great our country is and what it is to be a Kiwi. Does a similar thing happen in the States?


Even though the US does not seem to contribute to that kind of nationalism, the US media seems propagate a lopsided sense of nationalism the ignorant.

I live in Los Angeles which has a population of 8 million whereas the whole of New Zealand has a population of 4 million. That fact that almost half of Kiwi's are non-religious leads me to believe that it is a country of free thinkers. To me, that is very unlike the US (a country of 300 million) which, while founded on the freedom of religion, is very much bound by religious conviction.

While I think that every country has a bias towards its own I do not think, and hope not to think, that any other multi cultural society has the same level of closed mindedness the US does. Inside the US we like to portray ourselves as the good samaritan but I believe it only serves to make its people believe the world could not/would not survive without us. That is a position I cannot and will not stand by. I subscribe to the creed that everyone has the right to their own convictions, but that those convictions should not be forced on others. That is the sort of attitude I do not wish any of my descendants to have. I wish them to have respect individuals no matter where that individual is from or what it is they believe. Personally I do not believe that the US is the best place to learn that sort of life trait.


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## saltybroad

christopherm said:


> While I cannot speak from actual experience I cannot imagine it as being as poor as I view it to be here. There is nothing wrong with national pride, but I think that a large portion of the US takes it to excess due to, for lack of a better term, propaganda. We're 'bred' to believe that we are the best and that the world could not / would not exists without us. I think this breeds an alarmingly amount of arrogance.
> 
> Even though the US does not seem to contribute to that kind of nationalism, the US media seems propagate a lopsided sense of nationalism the ignorant.
> 
> I live in Los Angeles which has a population of 8 million whereas the whole of New Zealand has a population of 4 million. That fact that almost half of Kiwi's are non-religious leads me to believe that it is a country of free thinkers. To me, that is very unlike the US (a country of 300 million) which, while founded on the freedom of religion, is very much bound by religious conviction.
> 
> While I think that every country has a bias towards its own I do not think, and hope not to think, that any other multi cultural society has the same level of closed mindedness the US does. Inside the US we like to portray ourselves as the good samaritan but I believe it only serves to make its people believe the world could not/would not survive without us. That is a position I cannot and will not stand by. I subscribe to the creed that everyone has the right to their own convictions, but that those convictions should not be forced on others. That is the sort of attitude I do not wish any of my descendants to have. I wish them to have respect individuals no matter where that individual is from or what it is they believe. Personally I do not believe that the US is the best place to learn that sort of life trait.


Well said. On a personal note, I feel for you - we live in the central coast area, and while it's certainly not LA county, there are still way too many people here to suit my taste! 



> While no one should be tarring anyone with the same brush, personally, I have to say that Americans (in general) have worked very hard, knowingly or not, to warrant that kind of treatment.



I have never denied that many Americans deserve the reputation they've been given - I simply wanted to make the point that not ALL of us deserve it. For instance, if I were to judge the country and its citizens based on the news stories I read in the Herald, I might come to some ugly conclusions. Fortunately, I have spent enough time visiting NZ to know better. 

The blind nationalism is one of the things that has put me off the US in general. Sadly, we've made some really poor political choices in the last twenty years (and more, but I'll stick to the recent past, as I'm not old enough to answer for Cold War politics - I wasn't voting then). And yet, most folks here won't admit that - they just keep on voting for same idiots, stuck in this 2 party system which can't allow any real change. I would also allow that most Americans are blissfully unaware of our poor reputation abroad - because our media doesn't bother with global news - too busy reporting on the antics of elected nitwits and criminals (who often turn out to be one and the same.) The internet compensates greatly for this, but you do need to have sense enough to go looking for international news and I think most people feel they have enough to do without worrying about the rest of the world's problems. Shortsighted, indeed - but there you have it.


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## Georgito

Well, just to make clear one point.

It is good to know a little Geography. America is the continent right? Like Europe, Asia, Africa, etc.
Then, America is composed by regions; North America, Central America and South America. 
So, i think you guys are talking about North America?

Thanks for clarifying the point:confused2:


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## Bozeman

Actually, North America and South America are both continents. Central America is part of North America. And, yes, it doesn't really make sense but citizens of the United States of America are - in the English language - typically referred to as "Americans". It may be too late to change that usage...


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## TamperProof

Hi all,

Like an earlier poster I am going to make my first post in murky waters.  I am an American (Or since there seems to be some debate on even using that term I'll make up my own) -- I'm a United Statesian? LOL  It's interesting to read the back and forth in this thread between Kiwi's. I really appreciate the insight and see that I have my work cut out for me culturally.

I did have a thought though about American's... erm, sorry, United Statesian's ^_^ that move to other countries... Generally those of us that venture to do so (or even just research it to death) are not your typical pig headed "American" that someone might envision. I realize that some may hold it against us, a stigma that comes with our accent perhaps, but it really isn't all of us. People leave for SO many reasons, but I'd like to think many are like me. They are fed up with the internal strife and mismanagement of society.

I think New Zealand and the States have more in common than one might think, it just so happens that NZ has found better ways of dealing with their issues than America. Culture clashes due to immigration, political issues, more recently than ever the economic issues.

I WILL enter NZ with an open mind and ready to learn as much as I can. I hope that I can offer some of that back to people who think all us Statey's are like the points in the OP.

I'd love to talk about this in great detail but I always feel like hashing it out on a forum leads to people trolling and endless arguments that lead no where. I'll check here again as this thread really is of interest to me, but if anyone wants to talk one on one further just give me a PM here on the forums. I'd love to talk to some Kiwi's more about it!


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## topcat83

TamperProof said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Like an earlier poster I am going to make my first post in murky waters.  I am an American (Or since there seems to be some debate on even using that term I'll make up my own) -- I'm a United Statesian? LOL  It's interesting to read the back and forth in this thread between Kiwi's. I really appreciate the insight and see that I have my work cut out for me culturally.
> 
> I did have a thought though about American's... erm, sorry, United Statesian's ^_^ that move to other countries... Generally those of us that venture to do so (or even just research it to death) are not your typical pig headed "American" that someone might envision. I realize that some may hold it against us, a stigma that comes with our accent perhaps, but it really isn't all of us. People leave for SO many reasons, but I'd like to think many are like me. They are fed up with the internal strife and mismanagement of society.
> 
> I think New Zealand and the States have more in common than one might think, it just so happens that NZ has found better ways of dealing with their issues than America. Culture clashes due to immigration, political issues, more recently than ever the economic issues.
> 
> I WILL enter NZ with an open mind and ready to learn as much as I can. I hope that I can offer some of that back to people who think all us Statey's are like the points in the OP.
> 
> I'd love to talk about this in great detail but I always feel like hashing it out on a forum leads to people trolling and endless arguments that lead no where. I'll check here again as this thread really is of interest to me, but if anyone wants to talk one on one further just give me a PM here on the forums. I'd love to talk to some Kiwi's more about it!


Hi TamperProof - welcome to the forum.

And I'm sure you'll find us a friendly lot!


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## TamperProof

ReinetteRenee said:


> From my point of view Kiwis don't really dislike Americans just the government. Sure NZ and the states have plenty in common when it comes to Culture clashes and so on. Honestly i would like to know how you feel they have handled this better?


Hi!  

So I guess what I am getting at there is how they handle societal issues in general. This is from the outside looking in. The government pamphlets and stuff that I've read says that there's a minor problem amongst their citizens, but it's not noticeable in every day life. The people I speak to say generally that it's an open society but the most criticism falls on Asian immigrants. From the outside looking in, you expect to see some dismay, it's just not possible to have a Utopia. But I don't know that there are really any laws that open permit discrimination in NZ. There are laws here in that States that not only justify but promote discrimination which you would think for America is just down right unheard of. Not the case.

Also just the overall societal benefits and care of citizens. The health care, retirement plans, etc. I read posts that the quality of life in NZ is bad and/or declining but some of the things I read people complaining about are just normal things I've lived without my whole life here in the States... And without getting too political, my insurance is crap and I fear that if I get sick or in a major accident I'd have to declare bankruptcy. Teachers make squat here and it would be crippling for me.

Obviously these are all things from the outside looking in but the stability of the NZ society -- outside the normal problems -- is just better than America. It's more aligned with my expectations anyhow. I'm sure there are American's that would dispute me on that


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## AnotherOpinion

Georgito said:


> Well, just to make clear one point.
> 
> It is good to know a little Geography. America is the continent right? Like Europe, Asia, Africa, etc.
> Then, America is composed by regions; North America, Central America and South America.
> So, i think you guys are talking about North America?
> 
> Thanks for clarifying the point:confused2:


Wrong, these are not 'regions' Citizens of the United States of America are called Americans. Canadians and Americans are 'North Americans'. People from Central and South America are not 'Americans', they are 'Central Americans' or South Americans'. An important distinction. There is NO continent America.


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## AnotherOpinion

ReinetteRenee said:


> The Best thing you have said in there is
> 
> 
> From my point of view Kiwis don't really dislike Americans just the government. Sure NZ and the states have plenty in common when it comes to Culture clashes and so on. Honestly i would like to know how you feel they have handled this better?
> 
> I have yet to finish reading this whole post but your reply caught my attention. Most Kiwis i have met are really curious about america and how things are verses here. The Kiwis that i quite often don't get along with are the ones who have NEVER left NZ and think that NZ is the best place in the world. With the exception to the kids, under 18, they have so many questions and so on. The Kiwis who have traveled outside of New Zealand and lived over seas for some period of time are more open minded and not so quick to judge. The one problem i have with these kiwis that have never left is many of them have it in their head that you have to do things their way because your Now in NZ "when in Rome" kinda thing. Where in america they just let you be different, kiwis don't normally like different.


It's my experience that New Zealanders are some of the most bigoted, prejudiced people on the planet. If you are an American or Asian, think twice before moving there.


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## vona62

AnotherOpinion said:


> It's my experience that New Zealanders are some of the most bigoted, prejudiced people on the planet. If you are an American or Asian, think twice before moving there.


I'm a 4th generation NZ'd, lived/worked overseas for 41yrs on every continent in countries of at both ends of every religion, stage of development and incl. USA.

I thinks its kind of bizare that being from a culture that still to this day hate Mexicans (legal or *******) barely tolerates native Americans, resents African American equality, views the world generally with the self righteous atitude of a ******* bible thumper while attepting to enforce your value based beliefs on the world (to benefit the US only) you can arrogantly accuse New Zealanders of being bigoted. 

You sport are the very reason you are not welcome in my country.


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## RossM

*It's why we want to go*

I was glad to see the thread turn more toward a "that why we want to leave" tone. My wife and I are planning our move to NZ for most of the reasons given by the OP. I expect WE will have to adjust and it will take time for us to fit in, but that happens anytime you make a major move. If you want bigoted try the south in the US. Generational, violent, unfounded hatred, OH JOY.


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## topcat83

I'd just like to say that this thread has the potential to get personal - and we don't want that. So can everyone type once, read twice, then re-write if necessary before hitting the 'send' button


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## AnotherOpinion

vona62 said:


> I'm a 4th generation NZ'd, lived/worked overseas for 41yrs on every continent in countries of at both ends of every religion, stage of development and incl. USA.
> 
> I thinks its kind of bizare that being from a culture that still to this day hate Mexicans (legal or *******) barely tolerates native Americans, resents African American equality, views the world generally with the self righteous atitude of a ******* bible thumper while attepting to enforce your value based beliefs on the world (to benefit the US only) you can arrogantly accuse New Zealanders of being bigoted.
> 
> You sport are the very reason you are not welcome in my country.



I rest my case. This is exactly the type of smug, bigoted rhetoric an American or Asian will be greeted with every day in NZ. As an Asian married to an American Hispanic, I never once encountered the level of hatred in the US or anywhere else that I did in New Zealand. They're in a special class all to themselves. Worst two years of my life. You heard it right from a 4th generation New Zealander, you will be greeted with deep anti-American hatred and bigotry. Americans should avoid New Zealand.


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## dawnclaremaddox

jojo said:


> ......... of course, I've thought of a German stereotype - they always get up early when they're on holiday and nick all the sunbeds!!!!!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Funny you mentioned that, I tried to beat them to it but never did!


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## saltybroad

AnotherOpinion said:


> It's my experience that New Zealanders are some of the most bigoted, prejudiced people on the planet. If you are an American or Asian, think twice before moving there.


Seriouusly? I've yet to encounter anything other than welcome and curiosity from kiwis I've met both on holiday and since I've been in residence. I've made friends in supermarket parking lots, these folks are just that hospitable.

I've also been impressed by how well informed about America many kiwis are...they seem to know more about the geography and politics than I would expect from a reciprocal view - go ahead and ask an American where Wellington is - most won't be able to place it in the correct nation, let alone the right island. (Before we left the states, I often encountered blank stares from people who inquired where we were moving to - several had no idea where NZ is, or thought it must be a US territory!)

In my experience, most kiwis will consider an immigrant's behavior, attempts to assimilate, and reasons for leaving the US into account before disliking us as a nationality. (Approaching immigration as a grand adventure and enthusiastically embracing the local culture also helps, I think!)


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## RossM

When my wife and I visit well say we're Americans for the first week. For the second week we'll see if we're treated any different if we say we're Canadian... Eh. My wife and I are narrowing our 1st visit down to sometime next spring and will be keeping in mind that we are guests and things are a little different than home.


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## jojo

AnotherOpinion said:


> It's my experience that New Zealanders are some of the most bigoted, prejudiced people on the planet. If you are an American or Asian, think twice before moving there.


I think the key to *your* problem is in your opening three words "in my experience". Everyone is different, but in general, folk like nice, kind, happy and friendly people, their nationality really makes no difference _in my experience_! 

Jo xxx


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## Guest

ripeka said:


> We generally don’t like or trust Americans. Sad but true. Sorry. If you are an American, make sure you know other Americans that you plan on socialising with when you come out to NZ. Otherwise unfortunately, as many of you are finding out, you are likely to remain socially isolated. Out of all the English speaking world, Kiwis dislike Americans the most (probably unfairly)
> .
> Don’t shoot the messenger but here is a bit of a heads up about how we Kiwis think. Please try not to be offended; be aware that these are sweeping generalisations, they are NOT necessarily the truth of the situation but I have outlined some of the ways that Kiwis generally perceive the USA and Americans.
> 
> Rightly or wrongly WE:
> 
> a.	View your political antics on the world stage with suspicion
> 
> b. Are scathing of the arrogance with which the USA has dismissed UN directives (eg over Iraq) and initiatives such as the Kyoto Protocol – truly your arrogance on the world stage is breathtaking;
> 
> c.	Believe that your country thinks it is a law unto yourselves and we don’t respect that
> 
> d.	Feel you selfishly gobble up far too much of the world’s resources – much more than your share
> 
> e.	Believe that given the size of your country, you have had the capacity to do things like end world hunger but because it is not in your political interests to do so, you don’t bother
> 
> f.	View your extroverted nature with suspicion as some sort of attempt to dominate others by being the biggest and loudest and having a superior attitude (much as you attempt to dominate the world stage)
> 
> g.	See much of your sense of humour as being corny and simplistic (eg the only sitcoms we really like are those that rely on an ironic, more sarcastic or dry humor)
> 
> h.	Cant believe how many people in the USA seem to be gullible and just not all that intelligent (that’s the result of those day time chat shows/media/trashy magazines/Hollywood superstar silly behaviour that don’t present you in a good light)
> 
> i.	Resent that the USA sets a trend and a few short years later we have it happening in our society eg increasing obesity. Given media influence and the economic power of your corporates, we feel powerless to stop this and really really don’t like it.
> 
> These are some of the ways we think and the attitudes you are up against. Thought you should know then you wont be surprised when you don’t get a fair welcome and open offers of friendship.


To Ripeka:

I came over to this forum from the Canada forum because my Canadian spouse (with a mixed Asian-Tongan-Hawaiian background) and I were planning a trip to New Zealand next year. We were looking forward to seeing what appears to be a beautiful place and visiting the historical places we have been learning about. We also were excited about contemporary New Zealand culture, and the fine wines and foods that we've read so much about (and indeed, have enjoyed the wines already here in Canada). We wanted to come, to visit, to tour, to have what we thought might be a wonderful experience in a unique place. We didn't anticipate becoming "Kiwi" or somehow integrating instantly and expecting hearty handshakes and warm bear hugs. We did, however, think that we would be treated with courtesy, and perhaps a little kindness and respect. Unfortunately, I am one of those horrible people you so detest, a U.S. citizen (awaiting my Canadian citizenship). 

I do not know what prompted you to have to write this post, but I am sorry that your experience has led you down this path. And even though you try to deflect criticism by hiding behind such phrases as "don't shoot the messenger" and other similar sentiments in your later posts, you chose to post this and in doing so, have identified yourself as the defacto voice of New Zealanders.

After reading this OP which very clearly states that I should not expect a "fair welcome" you will be happy to learn that we have decided that New Zealand is not the place for us to visit. As a U.S. citizen, I understand that I can expect a great deal of hatred, distrust, and loathing around the world. My bad for being born in a place like the U.S.A. And I guess in my attempts to learn about "Kiwi culture" and points-of-views, I missed the parts you wrote about. 

I do have a question though, since you are speaking for New Zealand (despite your attempts to write that you are not even though you go on to do so): What nationalities, ethnicities, cultures, or races do you welcome (whether as visitors or residents) and why? What qualities, for example, do those people embody that would make them desirable enough for you to extend to them a "fair welcome"?


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## topcat83

CanadianAtHeart said:


> To Ripeka:
> 
> I came over to this forum from the Canada forum because my Canadian spouse (with a mixed Asian-Tongan-Hawaiian background) and I were planning a trip to New Zealand next year. We were looking forward to seeing what appears to be a beautiful place and visiting the historical places we have been learning about. We also were excited about contemporary New Zealand culture, and the fine wines and foods that we've read so much about (and indeed, have enjoyed the wines already here in Canada). We wanted to come, to visit, to tour, to have what we thought might be a wonderful experience in a unique place. We didn't anticipate becoming "Kiwi" or somehow integrating instantly and expecting hearty handshakes and warm bear hugs. We did, however, think that we would be treated with courtesy, and perhaps a little kindness and respect. Unfortunately, I am one of those horrible people you so detest, a U.S. citizen (awaiting my Canadian citizenship).
> 
> I do not know what prompted you to have to write this post, but I am sorry that your experience has led you down this path. And even though you try to deflect criticism by hiding behind such phrases as "don't shoot the messenger" and other similar sentiments in your later posts, you chose to post this and in doing so, have identified yourself as the defacto voice of New Zealanders.
> 
> After reading this OP which very clearly states that I should not expect a "fair welcome" you will be happy to learn that we have decided that New Zealand is not the place for us to visit. As a U.S. citizen, I understand that I can expect a great deal of hatred, distrust, and loathing around the world. My bad for being born in a place like the U.S.A. And I guess in my attempts to learn about "Kiwi culture" and points-of-views, I missed the parts you wrote about.
> 
> I do have a question though, since you are speaking for New Zealand (despite your attempts to write that you are not even though you go on to do so): What nationalities, ethnicities, cultures, or races do you welcome (whether as visitors or residents) and why? What qualities, for example, do those people embody that would make them desirable enough for you to extend to them a "fair welcome"?


CanadianAtHeart - please reconsider visiting. I don't know what Ripeka did or said that caused the reaction she appears to have had (or perceived to have had?) but what she describes is _not_ typical New Zealand, and she certainly does *NOT* speak for New Zealand!

Read the other posts - none of the other replies reflect the same problem. New Zealanders welcomes a multitude of nationalities, ethnicities, cultures and races who come with an open mind, as you would know if you visited us.


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## tcscivic12

ripeka said:


> We generally don’t like or trust Americans. Sad but true. Sorry. If you are an American, make sure you know other Americans that you plan on socialising with when you come out to NZ. Otherwise unfortunately, as many of you are finding out, you are likely to remain socially isolated. Out of all the English speaking world, Kiwis dislike Americans the most (probably unfairly)
> .
> Don’t shoot the messenger but here is a bit of a heads up about how we Kiwis think. Please try not to be offended; be aware that these are sweeping generalisations, they are NOT necessarily the truth of the situation but I have outlined some of the ways that Kiwis generally perceive the USA and Americans.
> 
> Rightly or wrongly WE:
> 
> a.	View your political antics on the world stage with suspicion
> 
> b. Are scathing of the arrogance with which the USA has dismissed UN directives (eg over Iraq) and initiatives such as the Kyoto Protocol – truly your arrogance on the world stage is breathtaking;
> 
> c.	Believe that your country thinks it is a law unto yourselves and we don’t respect that
> 
> d.	Feel you selfishly gobble up far too much of the world’s resources – much more than your share
> 
> e.	Believe that given the size of your country, you have had the capacity to do things like end world hunger but because it is not in your political interests to do so, you don’t bother
> 
> f.	View your extroverted nature with suspicion as some sort of attempt to dominate others by being the biggest and loudest and having a superior attitude (much as you attempt to dominate the world stage)
> 
> g.	See much of your sense of humour as being corny and simplistic (eg the only sitcoms we really like are those that rely on an ironic, more sarcastic or dry humor)
> 
> h.	Cant believe how many people in the USA seem to be gullible and just not all that intelligent (that’s the result of those day time chat shows/media/trashy magazines/Hollywood superstar silly behaviour that don’t present you in a good light)
> 
> i.	Resent that the USA sets a trend and a few short years later we have it happening in our society eg increasing obesity. Given media influence and the economic power of your corporates, we feel powerless to stop this and really really don’t like it.
> 
> These are some of the ways we think and the attitudes you are up against. Thought you should know then you wont be surprised when you don’t get a fair welcome and open offers of friendship.


Truthfully this does not offend me, but if the majority of Kiwi's feel this way why don't the citizens do something about it in their country. America is a world power because the PEOPLE(citizens) wanted change and as hard past times has shown the american people put up with problems to a certain extent and then do what has to be done for change. So, the Kiwi's should step up for their country like american's will step up for their own country.


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## tcscivic12

jojo said:


> Its a dangerous game to "dis" an entire nation. With that kind of thought process, doesnt it make you wonder how the rest of the world perceive Newzealanders??? I wonder what you'd think of the answers???
> 
> Personally I prefer to judge people on what they say and their actions, not their country of birth.
> 
> Jo xxx


Very well said. Every person is unique in their own way.


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## tcscivic12

Eleisha said:


> we being responsible for the global financial meltdown


America is not the only reason for the financial melt down. Look at EU and other countries around the world. Then look at how resilient Australia has been in the midst of this economic mess.


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## tcscivic12

RossM said:


> I was glad to see the thread turn more toward a "that why we want to leave" tone. My wife and I are planning our move to NZ for most of the reasons given by the OP. I expect WE will have to adjust and it will take time for us to fit in, but that happens anytime you make a major move. If you want bigoted try the south in the US. Generational, violent, unfounded hatred, OH JOY.


The south in generally not like that anymore. There are the small minority that still think this way usually the older folks.


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## RossM

tcscivic12 said:


> The south in generally not like that anymore. There are the small minority that still think this way usually the older folks.


In all fairness your absolutely right. As topcat said shortly after I posted this "think before you post" and I didn't. This may be a case of one bad apple spoils the bunch on both sides. There enough "ugly Americans" out there to build a stereotype and enough people to buy into it without giving the rest of us a chance to make the statement "Kiwis don't really like Americans". 
I just hope it won't take to long to go from being an American to just being your neighbor or co-worker.


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## topcat83

I'm bring this discussion to an end. It's been going on for over a year, and as can be seen by the age of some of the posts that people are commenting on, it can be too easy to rake up past comments that were made by members who were subsequently banned - usually because of their comments.

I'll ask that it is left on the Forum so that others can make their own minds up - but I'm leaving it on a positive.

I live in a hugely multi-cultural city, with a multitude of culturally and racially diverse friends and colleagues, many of who are in multi-racial and cultural relationships. I _know_ that the majority of my friends and colleagues have had few problems or suffered discrimination because of their religion, race or culture. I live here. Many who have commented don't.


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