# Are debts transferrable?



## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

The other night when I was down the bar, (buying bread as it happens) I overheard a Brit guy whom I know kinda sort of, boasting he had left England owing thousands on his credit cards. Now this guy is a bit of a plonker but his wife is a lovely woman and I could see she was mortified he was telling his drinking buddies (who to a man probably wouldnt pour water on him if he was on fire once he stopped buying them drinks) all about how he got one over on the bank. 

Which left me wondering. Has he? 

Surely in this day and age of technology, of the open borders and free movement of money (ish) within the European Union he is in error. 

If this guy is wrong, what is likely to happen. His wife asked me to ask my son, (he works as a translator for folk and has had lots of experience dealing with all kinds of people / departments within the Government not to mention banks). But he is not too sure, having never come across this problem, so I thought I would ask all of you. 

That way we can advise her and my son learns something new he can tell folk / use to help them if he ever comes across the questions again.


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## Pat Lleida (Jun 18, 2011)

It would be very difficult if not impossible to enforce that debt if the guy has no assets in the UK. It would be written off in the course of time though his credit rating would be zero.

I hope he likes it here because he has really burnt his bridges.


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## stevelin (Apr 25, 2009)

A friend of mine left the UK owing quite a bit on returning 5 years later they started chasing him again!!


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Pat Lleida said:


> It would be very difficult if not impossible to enforce that debt if the guy has no assets in the UK. It would be written off in the course of time though his credit rating would be zero.
> 
> I hope he likes it here because he has really burnt his bridges.


He is living the life of Riley at the moment having sold up in the UK and moved over here but not before he bought a load of furniture from the likes of DFS on the buy now, pay in a year offer. He has a lovely 3 piece suite, not to mention dining table and chairs, sideboard all of which he boasts about as if by doing so he is impressing folk. It's his wife I feel sorry for, she is so nice, she is convinced that HSBC, that's the bank he stitched up regards the credit cards are going to find them through Visa here. And with each passing week she is becoming paranoid about it all. 
But I guess it might be okay seeing as they don't have any assetts as you say in the UK, or at least I don't think they have.


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## Seb* (Mar 22, 2009)

stevelin said:


> A friend of mine left the UK owing quite a bit on returning 5 years later they started chasing him again!!


one year too early


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

She is worried about debt collectors turning up on her door. Is this likely? She told me quietly they know where they live, so I am thinking they might, but don't want to tell her anything until I am sure of what I say, or at least have some inkling.


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## Pat Lleida (Jun 18, 2011)

Without seeing the contract they signed I can only guess, but the usual thing is that it would be for an English court to rule on the matter. There is no way to get their money here. They would hunt him down with dogs if he ever went back though.
Probably


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Pat Lleida said:


> Without seeing the contract they signed I can only guess, but the usual thing is that it would be for an English court to rule on the matter. There is no way to get their money here. They would hunt him down with dogs if he ever went back though.
> Probably



Serve him right, but not her though, she is nice. I like her.


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## Pat Lleida (Jun 18, 2011)

Also if it could be proven that he had intended to do it, they could do him for fraud.
It is not the same to default on a loan as to take it out, then leave the country.

Poor woman.


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## Morten (Apr 20, 2011)

I have heard others boast similar nonsense, rather toe cringing ... I dont really feel bad for HSBC but the attitude is hard to stomach. From others with debts and their stories, its unlikely they will come chasing him here ... but having tried to look into it a bit it seems it is possible - the most likely way would be to sell the claim to an international debt collection agency that would try and enforce here. But its costly, time consuming and not particularly likely to be succesfull for them - so waiting for his return to the UK seems to be the standard action.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Morten said:


> I have heard others boast similar nonsense, rather toe cringing ... I dont really feel bad for HSBC but the attitude is hard to stomach. From others with debts and their stories, its unlikely they will come chasing him here ... but having tried to look into it a bit it seems it is possible - the most likely way would be to sell the claim to an international debt collection agency that would try and enforce here. But its costly, time consuming and not particularly likely to be succesfull for them - so waiting for his return to the UK seems to be the standard action.


I know someone going back soon - has never made a secret of the fact that they are on the run from the UK taxman

I somehow think that THEY won't have forgotten....................


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## DunWorkin (Sep 2, 2010)

Is he intending to claim a UK pension in the future? If he is they can take a court order to deduct the money owed.

He may also find it difficult to open a bank account here, to get a Spanish credit card etc as most European banks collaborate on things like this.

Depends on the amount owed whether the bank would chase him for it. 

He may have problems returning to the UK without being stopped at the port or airport of entry.


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## Morten (Apr 20, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> I know someone going back soon - has never made a secret of the fact that they are on the run from the UK taxman
> 
> I somehow think that THEY won't have forgotten....................


Indeed, I think youre right ..."There is no limitation period on debts to the Crown. You can always be pursued for tax and VAT." (source: National Debtline England & Wales | Debt Advice | Factsheet 25 Liability For Debts And The Limitation Act ) ... however it seems things like council tax etc has the 6year limit, whereas income tax etc does not.

On the other hand, if having debts to the crown and wanting to return ... the sensible thing would be to contact the tax office, tell them you wish to make a repayment plan and put the cards on the table. Theyre said to be quite accomodating normally - especially if a positive approach and willingness is displayed - and probably even more so if its a debt thats been on their backburner for years.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Well I hope he can sleep at night - because we are all paying his debts for him! Bad credit card debts are passed on to consumers via bank charges and high interest rates. Just like insurance fraud, shoplifting and other forms of theft. There is no such thing as a victimless crime, we all pay in the end.


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## Seb* (Mar 22, 2009)

Most debts (beside tax) will be dropped after 6 years, so he can get away with it as long as it is not a massively big amount, let's say 80 or 100k. It is different if his credit card company can prove fraud (using the card with clear intend to do a runner), then their will be a court order and when he returns to the UK he would have to pay up.

To sum it up, his wife shouldn't worry herself too much as long as they are not planning to return to the UK to reside within the next 6 years (as long as fraud isnt involved). Credit card companies usually write off debts like this, it's part of the overall calculation and one reason why credit card debts are so expensive to pay back. The overall customer base has to pay for it though.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Morten said:


> Indeed, I think youre right ..."There is no limitation period on debts to the Crown. You can always be pursued for tax and VAT." (source: National Debtline England & Wales | Debt Advice | Factsheet 25 Liability For Debts And The Limitation Act ) ... however it seems things like council tax etc has the 6year limit, whereas income tax etc does not.
> 
> On the other hand, if having debts to the crown and wanting to return ... the sensible thing would be to contact the tax office, tell them you wish to make a repayment plan and put the cards on the table. Theyre said to be quite accomodating normally - especially if a positive approach and willingness is displayed - and probably even more so if its a debt thats been on their backburner for years.


I do believe bankruptcy has been mentioned........


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## Morten (Apr 20, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> I do believe bankruptcy has been mentioned........


Sorry, you lost me there?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Morten said:


> Sorry, you lost me there?


that's what he's planning to do

go back & declare himself bankrupt


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## Morten (Apr 20, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> that's what he's planning to do
> 
> go back & declare himself bankrupt


Ahhh gotcha, I surely hope he´s looked into that properly, dont know the procedures in the UK for it, but at least in the rest of Europe you dont just waltz into a court and declare yourself bankrupt & all sins are forgiven ... but I guess its some kind of plan


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Morten said:


> Ahhh gotcha, I surely hope he´s looked into that properly, dont know the procedures in the UK for it, but at least in the rest of Europe you dont just waltz into a court and declare yourself bankrupt & all sins are forgiven ... but I guess its some kind of plan


I somehow doubt it...................


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Oh he intended to do it, he thinks it is a great hoot that he went out got all the furniture he has in his house now on credit and then did a bunk over here.

With regards HSBC, I do not know how much he owes them, I guess it is feasible they might choose to sell it to some international debt agency, I really don't know. I think I will just tell her to sit tight and hope for the best. 

As for him, he makes my stomach turn over at his boasting. 

There are folk on here who are worrying themselves sick because they have debts they cannot pay, the lady with the mortgage arrears for one, even myself now my husband can no longer work and he just sits and laughs about it. I guess it just goes to show that the world is made up of different kinds of people and not all of them are nice.


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## DunWorkin (Sep 2, 2010)

He sounds like a nasty piece of work. I hope he gets his comeuppance.

It is his wife and family I feel sorry for. In the end they are probably the ones that will suffer.


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

Seb* said:


> Most debts (beside tax) will be dropped after 6 years, so he can get away with it as long as it is not a massively big amount, let's say 80 or 100k. It is different if his credit card company can prove fraud (using the card with clear intend to do a runner), then their will be a court order and when he returns to the UK he would have to pay up.
> 
> To sum it up, his wife shouldn't worry herself too much as long as they are not planning to return to the UK to reside within the next 6 years (as long as fraud isnt involved). Credit card companies usually write off debts like this, it's part of the overall calculation and one reason why credit card debts are so expensive to pay back. The overall customer base has to pay for it though.




They can chase you forever if they have proven that they have been looking for you in those six years.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Isn't it sickening, here I am worrying about paying my bills and that poor lady is worrying herself silly because she is in arrears with her mortgage and is facing repossession and he sits there like Lord Muck boasting and laughing. 
I guess he thinks he has gotten away with his running up the bills because he is in a different country now. 
I don't think he intends to go back to the UK, I know his wife isn't keen. She suffers from Arthritis and prefers the weather here as she has less aches and pains. 
I am going to tell her to sit tight and if anyone does make contact to tell them the truth, whilst it might not do much good the creditors can't claim she lied. Do you think this is the right advice?


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## Morten (Apr 20, 2011)

It is sad. Whats worse is that theres a good chance he will get away with it. Its unlikely they will do serious chasing if he stays abroad and he will basically have gotten away with it in the end. 

We have had alot of similar types here ... they did a runner from the UK, came here and opened their estate agencies, bars and second hand car dealerships, ran round town acting like oil barons ... and when the crisis hit they suddenly vanished with debts owed locally to God knows everybody they had ever met or traded with. Now theyll be sitting in a bar in Turkey, the caribbeans or somewhere else boasting and laughing at the stupid tossers they cheated in Spain...and England.

Anyway, I would advice her not to speak to the creditors at all, ever. Refer them to her husband at all cost. Its his scam, let him deal with it - if she lies shes in legal trouble, if she tells them the truth she´ll potential be causing them problems as a married entity (ie if the creditors are informed of deliberate fraud, they might not only cause him problems - but her too) and she would be in serious marital problems I imagine ... and he doesnt strike me as the loyal type either. Avoid lying by saying nothing at all....



JoCatalunya said:


> Isn't it sickening, here I am worrying about paying my bills and that poor lady is worrying herself silly because she is in arrears with her mortgage and is facing repossession and he sits there like Lord Muck boasting and laughing.
> I guess he thinks he has gotten away with his running up the bills because he is in a different country now.
> I don't think he intends to go back to the UK, I know his wife isn't keen. She suffers from Arthritis and prefers the weather here as she has less aches and pains.
> I am going to tell her to sit tight and if anyone does make contact to tell them the truth, whilst it might not do much good the creditors can't claim she lied. Do you think this is the right advice?


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Morten said:


> It is sad. Whats worse is that theres a good chance he will get away with it. Its unlikely they will do serious chasing if he stays abroad and he will basically have gotten away with it in the end.
> 
> We have had alot of similar types here ... they did a runner from the UK, came here and opened their estate agencies, bars and second hand car dealerships, ran round town acting like oil barons ... and when the crisis hit they suddenly vanished with debts owed locally to God knows everybody they had ever met or traded with. Now theyll be sitting in a bar in Turkey, the caribbeans or somewhere else boasting and laughing at the stupid tossers they cheated in Spain...and England.
> 
> Anyway, I would advice her not to speak to the creditors at all, ever. Refer them to her husband at all cost. Its his scam, let him deal with it - if she lies shes in legal trouble, if she tells them the truth she´ll potential be causing them problems as a married entity (ie if the creditors are informed of deliberate fraud, they might not only cause him problems - but her too) and she would be in serious marital problems I imagine ... and he doesnt strike me as the loyal type either. Avoid lying by saying nothing at all....



I'm going to tell her to stay 'shtum'. It seems the best way, that way he can't have a go at her and the creditors can't say she was party to it. If worse comes to the worse and someone does call round I will tell her to call my son or me and we will go down and help (she doesn't speak a word of Spanish, neither does he but he can whistle) explain to her what they are saying and or call someone like a lawyer and explain what is happening etc. 

By the way, do you know if they have Bailiffs here as they do in the UK, it was one of the questions she asked of me, she's worried they will come and take her jewelry (the most of which she inherited from her now passed away mum).

Since she first asked me about this I have found myself wondering just how many folk might be guilty of not paying their debts up in the UK. Years back when I left the UK to live in Saudi the Gas Board tried to say I hadn't paid off my bill but thankfully I had paid by bank transfer and the bank had record so they backed off and gave me an apology to boot. But I wonder how many folk didnt bother, when one thinks one is starting a new life in a foreign country the thought of returning to the grey wet dreary mundanity of the UK is probably the last thing on their mind. But now in this time of crisis I wonder if some are being faced with the horrors of going back to face a load of debts they left behind.


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## Pat Lleida (Jun 18, 2011)

Yes, mum's the word.
Here they have companies like "el Cobrador del Frac" that are debt collectors, but to be honest I doubt very much anyone will go chasing a debt from the UK if it is less than 10,000€.

Has the woman signed any contracts? Or is it all in his name?


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Pat Lleida said:


> Yes, mum's the word.
> Here they have companies like "el Cobrador del Frac" that are debt collectors, but to be honest I doubt very much anyone will go chasing a debt from the UK if it is less than 10,000€.
> 
> Has the woman signed any contracts? Or is it all in his name?


He was the one working so I guess the furniture and the like was in his name, she did admit to having a credit card, which he paid for but now she is here he has refused to continue paying it so she has a small debt totally in her name, she said it was definitely less than 4 thousand (neglected to say pounds or euros). I think this is what is worrying her the most, her debt. She has no income, is reliant totally on her boor of a husband and so cannot repay it secretly behind his back no matter how much she wants too, which I believe she does. 
Thing is she is sure someone from the bank has called her they were speaking in Spanish but she understood the word 'Banco" and now she is sure a debt collection agency is after her. She has started saying 'wrong number' to anyone who calls, including me, luckily I see her in the village most days and this is why she turned to my son and I for help. She thinks because we speak the lingo, (my son does it to translator level I do enough to get by) we can work miracles and make it all go away. 
If this debt collection agency is the one calling her what do you think she should do? Should I try calling them? Or do we play stupid and pretend 'we know nothing' as Shultz from Hogan's Heroes used to say. 
I feel I cannot just walk away from this poor woman, she needs help, and I can't help but think, 'there but for the grace of god'.


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## Pat Lleida (Jun 18, 2011)

It wouldn't be a Spanish bank ringing up for something else? Doubtful, they hardly give you the time of day when you go to the office.
Is it a fixed line? i.e. do they know where she lives? If so the usual form would be to send letters looking for money. 

Problem with credit card debt is the interest keeps being added to the capital so the debt can go up quickly. Most companies are happy to hash out some kind of payment plan where they would freeze the interest. Their alternative is to get nothing and have to write it off.


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## Morten (Apr 20, 2011)

Hmmm it sounds like she is working herself up to a real state of panic - which could be kind of a bigger problem than any her husband might be causing.

Theres indeed debt collection agencies, but they wont just come and confiscate her things one random day without warning and notification.

If you want to give her a bit of advice:
- Try and calm her down. Hiding from the phone, not opening letters or answering the door is only gonna make life a living hell...and its the only way things could happen without warning, as obviously she wont receive it.

- Its unlikely they will be chased at all, but if they are it will start with letters, so there will be fair warning in the mailbox.

- Make her insist to her husband that a payment plan is agreed and maintained for the creditcard that is in her name. He might not think its important, but usually a defaulting CC-debt plan can be agreed for even a few euros/month, and nobody will chase her if she has an agreed plan and sticks to it. I would make it an ultimatum to him if I was her.

- Go open a bankaccount in her own name. She might not have any money to put in it right now, but whenever she does...put them in. Having her own account might help in the long run if things turn ugly.

- If she is scared about the jewellery, go rent a box in a bank or one of the storage room providers. Take out the rental (costs next to nothing) in her own name. Put what she doesnt regularly wear there.

- Look into even little moneymaking jobs of her own ... could be anything really, a little barjob, selling a few crafts, carboots whatever she can get her fingers on - but even with a tiny little income of her own she would gain a bit of space to maneuvre, ability to stash even minimal emergency funds or pay off her own debts.

- If you/your son genuinely intends to be there for her in the time of a crisis. Make that very concrete and explicitly understood. Often alot of whats needed is the knowledge that you aint suddenly left entirely on your own among packs of wolves. Might help give her some confidence in dealing with things....

She generally seems to worry alot more than is actually justified - given the risks are slim and even the potential consequences of anyone chasing them are rather limited, most likely ending with the agreement of a repayment plan. 




JoCatalunya said:


> I'm going to tell her to stay 'shtum'. It seems the best way, that way he can't have a go at her and the creditors can't say she was party to it. If worse comes to the worse and someone does call round I will tell her to call my son or me and we will go down and help (she doesn't speak a word of Spanish, neither does he but he can whistle) explain to her what they are saying and or call someone like a lawyer and explain what is happening etc.
> 
> By the way, do you know if they have Bailiffs here as they do in the UK, it was one of the questions she asked of me, she's worried they will come and take her jewelry (the most of which she inherited from her now passed away mum).
> 
> Since she first asked me about this I have found myself wondering just how many folk might be guilty of not paying their debts up in the UK. Years back when I left the UK to live in Saudi the Gas Board tried to say I hadn't paid off my bill but thankfully I had paid by bank transfer and the bank had record so they backed off and gave me an apology to boot. But I wonder how many folk didnt bother, when one thinks one is starting a new life in a foreign country the thought of returning to the grey wet dreary mundanity of the UK is probably the last thing on their mind. But now in this time of crisis I wonder if some are being faced with the horrors of going back to face a load of debts they left behind.


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## Seb* (Mar 22, 2009)

Don't forget: even if (and that's a very big IF) the CC company sells the debt to an international or spanish debt collection agency, they have NO right to enter her house or take her things without a court order of a *spanish* court. If this is set in motion she will receive letters first and will have plenty of warning.

Overall I think she is in a panic for no real obvious reason right now!


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

I am meeting up with her tomorrow and I am going to try and allay some of her fears and tell her the options (those she has).

Thank you to you all for taking the time to advise me, it's a fact we cannot know everything and if someone else can impart a little of their wisdom or at least their opinion we can all learn from it.


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## BigD (Jan 29, 2011)

Jo,
The credit agreements would have been drawn up according to the law of England and Wales (substitute Scotland if applicable). The contracts are enforceable by recourse to English courts which in the law of contract have no jurisdiction in Spain. In essence your friend has nothing to worry about, however; were she to ever return to England she could be liable for any debts in her or joint names, as a previous poster stated a 6 year limitation applies but only if the company fails to pursue the debt and they invariably do even if it's only a letter once a year (the debtor does not have to have received the letter). Also if the bank decides that your friend deliberately took out credit agreements with no intention of repaying them then they could make a formal complaint to the police of fraud which could cause problems as the courts could apply for extradition which within Europe would be granted automatically. This is highly unlikely however and I have never heard it happen.
In essence providing your friend never returns to England she will have no problems, I would suggest she gives it a year then checks her credit history with an agency (Experian) which will show if any County Court Judgements have been issued.
Having said all of this I think she is just as bad as her odious criminal husband so I hope she never has another good nights sleep with all the worry.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

BigD said:


> Jo,
> The credit agreements would have been drawn up according to the law of England and Wales (substitute Scotland if applicable). The contracts are enforceable by recourse to English courts which in the law of contract have no jurisdiction in Spain. In essence your friend has nothing to worry about, however; were she to ever return to England she could be liable for any debts in her or joint names, as a previous poster stated a 6 year limitation applies but only if the company fails to pursue the debt and they invariably do even if it's only a letter once a year (the debtor does not have to have received the letter). Also if the bank decides that your friend deliberately took out credit agreements with no intention of repaying them then they could make a formal complaint to the police of fraud which could cause problems as the courts could apply for extradition which within Europe would be granted automatically. This is highly unlikely however and I have never heard it happen.
> In essence providing your friend never returns to England she will have no problems, I would suggest she gives it a year then checks her credit history with an agency (Experian) which will show if any County Court Judgements have been issued.
> Having said all of this I think she is just as bad as her odious criminal husband so I hope she never has another good nights sleep with all the worry.


I appreciate what you say and part of me agrees and then another part having seen the way he treats her, speaks to her etc I have to say I don't think she has a voice. She certainly has no money of her own, he controls everything. 
I don't think she ever wants to return to the UK, as I have said she has Arthritis and has since she arrived gotten a lot more movement in her hands etc but I don't think the worry is helping her.


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## DunWorkin (Sep 2, 2010)

BigD said:


> ...... Having said all of this I think she is just as bad as her odious criminal husband so I hope she never has another good nights sleep with all the worry.


I know we probably do not know all the details of this story but from what Jo has said it does not sound to me that it is her fault. 

Her only bad move was probably to marry the b*****d in the first place.


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

All that has been said and advised is accurate but the subject really annoys me, maybe for my stupidity! We have quite a few people in this area who have done exactly the same thing and proudly tell everybody about it. Me, I made sure we cleared all our debts before we came out here, I thought it was the 'right' thing to do.....now I am not quite so sure but at least I have no worries.
There is a slight difference with motor vehicles bought on HP in the UK and then brought over here without continuing the payments. Many people seem to try this but there are collection agencies working in all the major centres with lists of default car numbers and VIN numbers. If they see a right hand drive car they compare the reg No (if still on UK plates or the VIN number if not) with the lists provided by the debt agency. If it is a default they follow it home, call the Guardia and they seize it. There is good money in the recovery, I know, as I was offered a job with them which I didn't take, again probably daft. The same, I am told, can apply to other high value identifiable items like caravans, mobile homes, trailers etc. The Guardia in Almeria sometimes visit the site and check on caravans parked.
The world is getting smaller and the systems tighter so I wouldn't be too confident.


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## Morten (Apr 20, 2011)

I couldnt agree less ....

In my books there is a world of difference between her husband and her -> she is guilty of marrying a tosser and being too weak to stand up to him....but she hasnt deliberately scammed anyone, she is embarrassed about the same things he boasts about in the bar, he wants to "to get away with it" whilst she is seeking advice to rectify it. 





BigD said:


> Jo,
> Having said all of this I think she is just as bad as her odious criminal husband so I hope she never has another good nights sleep with all the worry.


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

*Face value*

It depends how much you take at face value........



Morten said:


> I couldnt agree less ....
> 
> In my books there is a world of difference between her husband and her -> she is guilty of marrying a tosser and being too weak to stand up to him....but she hasnt deliberately scammed anyone, she is embarrassed about the same things he boasts about in the bar, he wants to "to get away with it" whilst she is seeking advice to rectify it.


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## BigD (Jan 29, 2011)

I appreciate what you are saying Morten however she is benefiting from her husbands fraud and from what has been said on here she seems more worried about being liable herself and protecting her jewellery than seeking to rectify the situation.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

I met with her this morning and we had a long talk. I am not sure if I can help her, other than by acting as a translator if anyone does come calling. 
I have decided not to judge her, I am trying not to judge her husband, (though I admit it is really hard not to). What he has done is very wrong, but I guess he has no problems sleeping so I am not going to lose any either.


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