# French naturalization after masters degree?



## rsamuelson

Hello. My understanding is if I were to obtain a masters degree in France, I would be able to apply for citizenship after 2 additional years as a resident, presumably if I find a job and pay taxes on French-sourced income, per below. My question is, would time spent in France prior to the masters degree on a series of successive temporary residence permits studying French count meaningfully towards time spent in the country for the purpose of getting naturalized? I’ve been in France for 2 years studying French but not for a formal degree, and I’m wondering if going back to the US for a year while I apply to a masters in France, as opposed to staying in France for that year, will put me at a disadvantage or not. 




> Une durée minimale de 2 ans de résidence en France est exigée si vous êtes dans l'une des situations suivantes :
> 
> 
> Vous avez obtenu un diplôme d'un établissement d'enseignement supérieur français après 2 ans d'études


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## Bevdeforges

I think it's generally agreed that time spent in France on a "student visa" of any sort doesn't count toward the residency required to take French nationality. Also, the time that does count toward your residency needs to be continuous as of the date that you file your application. And, at the completion of your masters degree in France, you must find a job in the field in which you obtained your degree in France.


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## rsamuelson

Bevdeforges said:


> I think it's generally agreed that time spent in France on a "student visa" of any sort doesn't count toward the residency required to take French nationality. Also, the time that does count toward your residency needs to be continuous as of the date that you file your application. And, at the completion of your masters degree in France, you must find a job in the field in which you obtained your degree in France.


Thank you! Do you also know if there are certain fields of degrees that are considered more "eligible" than others? For example are the humanities less favored than the hard sciences, etc?


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## Bevdeforges

rsamuelson said:


> Thank you! Do you also know if there are certain fields of degrees that are considered more "eligible" than others? For example are the humanities less favored than the hard sciences, etc?


As far as I know, all fields are treated equally. The "kicker" is that finding a job in a field like "Art" or "American studies" or some of the other humanities when you are done can be difficult to impossible.


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## rsamuelson

Bevdeforges said:


> As far as I know, all fields are treated equally. The "kicker" is that finding a job in a field like "Art" or "American studies" or some of the other humanities when you are done can be difficult to impossible.


Thank you. Understood. If it were art, maybe working at a museum or something like that...appreciate your help


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## 255

@rsamuelson -- As @Bevdeforges indicated, any application for naturalization must be from a continuous period of residency, so if you're not on some sort of long-stay visa -- it doesn't really matter, if you go back, or not. 

An option you do have is to apply for a "Passport Talent" residency permit to regularize yourself: International talents | France-Visas.gouv.fr . As I understand it, this is one of the few residency permits you can apply for, while in France.

The "wrinkle in the ointment," so to speak, in going to school on a student visa (with aspirations for citizenship,) is that you need to either get a job or start a French business, after graduation (or before) to be able to stay in France for the two years required for naturalization. Easier said than done. The subject matter doesn't really matter, but your employment does need to be in your field of study. Cheers, 255


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## rsamuelson

255 said:


> @rsamuelson -- As @Bevdeforges indicated, any application for naturalization must be from a continuous period of residency, so if you're not on some sort of long-stay visa -- it doesn't really matter, if you go back, or not.
> 
> An option you do have is to apply for a "Passport Talent" residency permit to regularize yourself: International talents | France-Visas.gouv.fr . As I understand it, this is one of the few residency permits you can apply for, while in France.
> 
> The "wrinkle in the ointment," so to speak, in going to school on a student visa (with aspirations for citizenship,) is that you need to either get a job or start a French business, after graduation (or before) to be able to stay in France for the two years required for naturalization. Easier said than done. The subject matter doesn't really matter, but your employment does need to be in your field of study. Cheers, 255


Thank you! The continuous residency for me would apply because I have been renewing a series of temporary residence permits. But it seems to me that the French government doesn't count years on a "student permit" as valid years for the purposes of naturalization. Even in the case of the masters, they seem to really care about those 2 years after receiving your diploma, at which point you'd be working in the field of study and paying taxes.


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## rsamuelson

255 said:


> @rsamuelson -- As @Bevdeforges indicated, any application for naturalization must be from a continuous period of residency, so if you're not on some sort of long-stay visa -- it doesn't really matter, if you go back, or not.
> 
> An option you do have is to apply for a "Passport Talent" residency permit to regularize yourself: International talents | France-Visas.gouv.fr . As I understand it, this is one of the few residency permits you can apply for, while in France.
> 
> The "wrinkle in the ointment," so to speak, in going to school on a student visa (with aspirations for citizenship,) is that you need to either get a job or start a French business, after graduation (or before) to be able to stay in France for the two years required for naturalization. Easier said than done. The subject matter doesn't really matter, but your employment does need to be in your field of study. Cheers, 255


As to the issue of remaining in France after the student visa, I assume having the 4 year talent passport would take care of that. Of course then the question is finding a basis for being granted the talent passport, and proving income.


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## 255

@rsamuelson -- There are many "variants" of the Passport Talent. Some require income, some don't. For instance, if you form a company, with starting capital of 35K EUR, there is no income required. In your thread in the tax forum, you mentioned an annual income of 300K -- if you can do that, you can easily fund a new company.

You can also attend school while on the Passport Talent, so no student visa required -- you'd still need the two years after graduation, but it could still shorten your time, perhaps, by a year. Normal naturalization (unless you have a French spouse) is 5 years, so 2 years in school plus two more working after school, that'd be four years. renew your Passport Talent and after one more year, you could apply, even without the Masters. By the way, the higher education (masters or doctorate,) must be a minimum of two years, so don't be persuaded by a one year program. Cheers, 255


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## rsamuelson

255 said:


> @rsamuelson -- There are many "variants" of the Passport Talent. Some require income, some don't. For instance, if you form a company, with starting capital of 35K EUR, there is no income required. In your thread in the tax forum, you mentioned an annual income of 300K -- if you can do that, you can easily fund a new company.
> 
> You can also attend school while on the Passport Talent, so no student visa required -- you'd still need the two years after graduation, but it could still shorten your time, perhaps, by a year. Normal naturalization (unless you have a French spouse) is 5 years, so 2 years in school plus two more working after school, that'd be four years. renew your Passport Talent and after one more year, you could apply, even without the Masters. By the way, the higher education (masters or doctorate,) must be a minimum of two years, so don't be persuaded by a one year program. Cheers, 255


That all sounds great, but just to clarify, in order to get French citizenship it looks like they're going to want to see tax statement and income coming in to justify integration into society. So it seems like being gainfully employed would still be requirement to get citizenship, aside from using the Talent Passport as a basis for physically being in the country.


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## 255

@rsamuelson -- That is all true. Cheers, 255


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## Bevdeforges

To take advantage of that reduction in the residency requirement, I suspect that any company you formed to obtain a passeport talent would have to be related (at the least) to your field of study. I doubt you could qualify for a passeport talent if you were proposing to set up a t-shirt company or something similar just to get the visa. 

And there is no threshold for filing French taxes - even if you make very little or no money from your company, you need to file a tax declaration for other reasons (including validating your residence and determining your "reference income" (as opposed to your taxable income).


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## rsamuelson

Bevdeforges said:


> To take advantage of that reduction in the residency requirement, I suspect that any company you formed to obtain a passeport talent would have to be related (at the least) to your field of study. I doubt you could qualify for a passeport talent if you were proposing to set up a t-shirt company or something similar just to get the visa.
> 
> And there is no threshold for filing French taxes - even if you make very little or no money from your company, you need to file a tax declaration for other reasons (including validating your residence and determining your "reference income" (as opposed to your taxable income).


Is there a minimum amount of income that would need to be paid taxes on in order to qualify for citizenship in those 2 years post-masters?


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## 255

@rsamuelson -- You should at least make the minimum wage (SMIC,) however you should strive to do more than the minimum. You want to "paint a picture" of yourself as a successful potential asset to France.

Interprofessional minimum wage (Smic) | Insee Cheers, 255


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## rsamuelson

255 said:


> @rsamuelson -- You should at least make the minimum wage (SMIC,) however you should strive to do more than the minimum. You want to "paint a picture" of yourself as a successful potential asset to France.
> 
> Interprofessional minimum wage (Smic) | Insee Cheers, 255


Thank you!


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## Bevdeforges

I'm not sure that's correct. The way the French tax regs are set up, there is often a surprisingly large proportion of those filing IR declarations who pay no tax at all. This was our case for quite a few years after my husband set up his SARL (well, "our" SARL since I was the other shareholder). We had losses for many years, but the company paid all its cotisations and other corporate taxes on time and in full. I think they understand that it goes with the territory (for a new business). In fact, quite a few small businesses here seem to operate "on the cash flow" rather than depending on making much or any profit. Depends on the business you're in, the number of people you employ, etc. etc. etc.

The fact of declaring your personal revenues every year, whether or not you are paying taxes, is taken as positive signs of your successful "integration."


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## rsamuelson

Bevdeforges said:


> I'm not sure that's correct. The way the French tax regs are set up, there is often a surprisingly large proportion of those filing IR declarations who pay no tax at all. This was our case for quite a few years after my husband set up his SARL (well, "our" SARL since I was the other shareholder). We had losses for many years, but the company paid all its cotisations and other corporate taxes on time and in full. I think they understand that it goes with the territory (for a new business). In fact, quite a few small businesses here seem to operate "on the cash flow" rather than depending on making much or any profit. Depends on the business you're in, the number of people you employ, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> The fact of declaring your personal revenues every year, whether or not you are paying taxes, is taken as positive signs of your successful "integration."


That makes sense for a new business. But how about in the case that I earn a salary as an employee of an established company for the purposes of naturalization? I can't find anything official that talks about earning minimums, etc in that case.


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## 255

@rsamuelson -- If you look at the Passport Talent Visa/Residency permit (link previously provided,) you'll find that the resident permits themselves require 1X, 2X, or 3X the SMIC. So it's not an issue; to qualify for the permit, you'll have to earn enough. There probably no "official" number, at all. Cheers, 255


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## Bevdeforges

rsamuelson said:


> That makes sense for a new business. But how about in the case that I earn a salary as an employee of an established company for the purposes of naturalization? I can't find anything official that talks about earning minimums, etc in that case.


OK, after 5 or 10 years in business, I assume a business can be considered "established" even if it is small. But there are no fixed criteria about earning a salary "for the purposes of naturalization." Filing your tax declarations establishes a record with the state - and includes information used for other things, such as your payment of your TV license, relevant data for assessing the relevant taxe foncière (property tax) and taxe d'habitation (if that is applicable), as well as establishing your revenu de reference, which is a standardized measure of how much you actually live on, regardless of how much tax you ultimately pay - necessary for applying for a variety of benefits, subsidies and things like bank loans, etc.

If you are on a passeport talent, there are established minimums for salaries if you are obtaining your passeport talent as a salaried employee in a tech industry or with certain types of technical skills. Otherwise, if you are employed by a French employer of some sort, your employer should have obtained your work authorization for you, allowing you to get a visa as a salarié under the rules applicable to employers who hire non-French, non-EU nationals for a specific job. There are other rules for non-French employers who wish to hire a foreigner to work for them in France - as, for example, a transfer manager or someone to begin setting up a French subsidiary or branch for their employer.


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## Poloss

Last Thursday I was speaking with people at the naturalisation service of our regional préfecture;
they are currently treating applications filed in 2019 which, if complete, will take around six months on top of that for the mandatory interviews with gendarmerie /police and préfecture etc before being transferred to the ministère de l'intérieur in Paris where a decision can be expected after another 12 months.

It's a long haul ...


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## EuroTrash

Objectively - the requirements for naturalisation can't be lower than the minimum requirements for the titre de sejour, since you need the TdS in order to qualify to apply for naturalisation. Leaves the question, is more expected for naturalisation? Or will every application from a person who has held the appropriate titres de séjours for the required length of time and ticked all the boxes, automatically be successful? I was under the impression that not every application does succeed.


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## Bevdeforges

Good point, ET! Also Poloss - thanks for the detail on the waiting times. And one other thing - yes, assuming you obtain a masters here in France and then find a job in your field, you can then apply for citizenship. But even in "normal times" (whatever those are or were), the processing of the application takes a year or more (nowadays, usually much more) and you have to be legally residing in France during that time on some sort of carte de séjour. In France these sorts of administrative processes are definitely not a "tick the boxes" kind of exercise. There is quite a bit of administrative discretion involved - and if the administrator processing your case suspects that you're in any way not completely sincere or just "ticking the boxes" to get citizenship, they can turn you down for any reason or no reason at all.

By the time you are eligible to apply for citizenship, you're already in a status as a resident that is virtually identical to being a citizen - save for the need to renew (and pay for) a new carte de séjour every 10 years or so and the fact that you can't vote.


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## Poloss

EuroTrash said:


> Objectively - the requirements for naturalisation can't be lower than the minimum requirements for the titre de sejour, since you need the CdS in order to qualify to apply for naturalisation. Leaves the question, is more expected for naturalisation?


From my experience, much much more is expected for naturalisation, especially the "par décret" path.

"Par déclaration" (marriage) is relatively easier considering the lesser amount of paperwork required.


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## rsamuelson

Poloss said:


> Last Thursday I was speaking with people at the naturalisation service of our regional préfecture;
> they are currently treating applications filed in 2019 which, if complete, will take around six months on top of that for the mandatory interviews with gendarmerie /police and préfecture etc before being transferred to the ministère de l'intérieur in Paris where a decision can be expected after another 12 months.
> 
> It's a long haul ...


Which prefecture?


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## Bevdeforges

Poloss said:


> "Par déclaration" (marriage) is relatively easier considering the lesser amount of paperwork required.


While the process is nominally "easier" I would argue that the paperwork is remarkably similar (especially if you were married abroad and had to go through the initial "transcription of marriage" routine). But the point still is that, as in most French administrative processes, it is NOT a matter of simply providing all the paperwork and then you're good to go. People do get refused nationality for various (or no) reasons, no matter how much paper they can offer. Very often it involves that requirement that the candidates be "sufficiently integrated" into France.


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## EuroTrash

Maybe also bear in mind that in four years' time the rules may not be quite the same as they are now. 
If France finds that the number of applications for citizenship is snowballing faster than it bargained for, it is going to look at tightening the requirements to restore the balance.
For instance I believe it tightened up on the language requirement quite recently didn't it? or was that for something else.
Conversely of course if it feels not enough people are applying it may relax the requirements - but that doesn't appear to be the situation at present.


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## 255

@EuroTrash -- "For instance I believe it tightened up on the language requirement quite recently didn't it?" This is true. In 2020, they eliminated the exemption from speaking French for those over 60. Now all applicants for citizenship must submit proof (test results to the B1 level,) with their applications. Cheers, 255


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## Poloss

rsamuelson said:


> Which prefecture?


Limoges


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## Poloss

Bevdeforges said:


> While the process is nominally "easier" I would argue that the paperwork is remarkably similar (especially if you were married abroad and had to go through the initial "transcription of marriage" routine). But the point still is that, as in most French administrative processes, it is NOT a matter of simply providing all the paperwork and then you're good to go. People do get refused nationality for various (or no) reasons, no matter how much paper they can offer. Very often it involves that requirement that the candidates be "sufficiently integrated" into France.


For the "par décret" path, there's a whole extra dimension of paperwork or eventual questions concerning employment, revenues, family living abroad or in France, previous domiciles in France, social integration etcwhich is not necessary for the "marriage" path.

I admit that if the marriage took place abroad then it's more complicated;
I was comparing based on a marriage celebrated in France.

Lastly, naturalisation via _décret_ is a *favour* granted to the applicant by the French administration
whereas via _déclaration_ is a *right*, assuming that conditions are met and respected
and can take forever if there's a suspicion of "mariage blanc"


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## Bevdeforges

As always, it kind of depends. The extra paperwork and questions you mention for the "par décret" path may or may not equate to the investigation done regarding the French partner and potential challenges to the legitimacy of the marriage relationship. If the French partner is divorced, for example, they may ask for "proof" that the French partner didn't lose their French citizenship based on their prior marriage - even to another French citizen when the French partner has never had residence outside of France. (Yeah, that one kind of threw me, too.) Questions about the French partner's kids. And yes, they questioned my employment history before coming to France, my educational background, etc. While technically, they can only turn down the spouse of a French citizen for "posing a threat to public order" or "refusing to learn French" they certainly check out all their options for potentially turning you down.

Ultimately, they kept asking for bills and other evidence of our joint bank account (which we don't have, being married under a separation des biens contract) and invoices addressed to us jointly (again, we have none). Ultimately, I used our donkeys' registration certificates (which I had brought with me to one of the meetings at the prefecture) as "proof" of the legitimacy of our relationship. No, there is no real "easy" path to citizenship in France. They want you to know that they are picky about who they admit to citizenship here.


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