# Enquiry Regarding 189 Visa



## ahmabd (3 mo ago)

I have an enquiry regarding an invitation to apply for a 189 visa.
My mate has received an invitation to apply for the 189 visa but his skills assessment from Engineers Australia and PTE results have both expired (more than 3 years old).
Is it acceptable to apply for the visa on the basis of this invitation and provide updated documents after receiving this invitation (after getting renewed skill assessment from Engineers Australia and taking another PTE test)?
Or
He`ll have to get updated documents and update the EOI after 60 days have passed or submit a new EOI?

I shall be highly thankful if the appropriate way of handling this can be communicated.


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

ahmabd said:


> I have an enquiry regarding an invitation to apply for a 189 visa.
> My mate has received an invitation to apply for the 189 visa but his skills assessment from Engineers Australia and PTE results have both expired (more than 3 years old).
> Is it acceptable to apply for the visa on the basis of this invitation and provide updated documents after receiving this invitation (after getting renewed skill assessment from Engineers Australia and taking another PTE test)?
> Or
> ...


There is a precedence specific to expired Skills assessment as per THAPA case.

Ask your mate to research the Thapa case and also consult a reputed MARA agent or Immigration lawyer. My understanding from THAPA case is that as long as new PTE result and EA assessment can be obtained within the 60 days he should be able to file his application.









Can I apply for Visa if my Skill Assessment Expired? | AUSDIRECT MIGRATION


Can I apply for Visa if my Skill Assessment Expired? Based on a recent court judgement on 12 Apr 2021, the short answer is "Yes". Read on for more details...




ausdirectmigration.com










Thapa v Minister for Immigration, Citizenship, Migrant Services and Multicultural Affairs [2021] FCCA 686 - BarNet Jade







jade.io


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## NB (Mar 29, 2017)

RDStranger said:


> There is a precedence specific to expired Skills assessment as per THAPA case.
> 
> Ask your mate to research the Thapa case and also consult a reputed MARA agent or Immigration lawyer. My understanding from THAPA case is that as long as new PTE result and EA assessment can be obtained within the 60 days he should be able to file his application.
> 
> ...


An excellent find, but I am only worried that if the DHA rejects their application, they will have to approach the AAT and maybe courts which is not easy
Cheers


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

NB said:


> An excellent find, but I am only worried that if the DHA rejects their application, they will have to approach the AAT and maybe courts which is not easy
> Cheers


Well people need to often fight for the injustice and wrong doings so if comes down to it then be it (purely my outlook on life). I am not suggesting doing this there is a clear precedence Thapa case has provided to everyone.


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## Joseph85 (4 mo ago)

NB said:


> An excellent find, but I am only worried that if the DHA rejects their application, they will have to approach the AAT and maybe courts which is not easy
> Cheers


Nothing is easy in life mate. Read the below 


The Full Federal Court went on to find that the Minister was required to consider any compelling circumstances which had arisen subsequent to the lodgement of the application for a protection visa.
55(1) Until the Minister has made a decision whether to grant or refuse to grant a visa, the applicant may give the Minister any additional relevant information and the Minister must have regard to that information in making the decision. 


Given that the invitation to apply for the visa allowed a 60 day period from the date of the invitation, it would seem to be a strange result that the applicant was unable to provide additional information which showed that the applicant met all the criteria for the grant of a visa. The particular unfairness in this matter is that the relevant skills assessment granted to the applicant, initially in 2015, did not specify a date of expiry. It was only as a result of the operation of cl 189.222 (d) of the _Regulations_ that a three-year period was imported into the validity of the relevant skills assessment.
The Court is satisfied that, in these circumstances, the construction which the first respondent contends leads to such plain unfairness and absurdity that it is not to be preferred. The Court adopts the words of the High Court in _Berenguel, _quoted above, that the alternative construction for which the plaintiff contends does not compromise the purpose of the Regulations. Further, this is consistent with the provisions of s 55 of the _Act_, which makes it explicitly clear that the Minister can be provided with further information up until the date of the Minister’s decision. This is precisely what happened in this case.


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## ahmabd (3 mo ago)

Thank you 🙂 This is really helpful. I have asked my mate to look further into this. You are awesome.


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## Zeusaussy (3 mo ago)

ahmabd said:


> Thank you 🙂 This is really helpful. I have asked my mate to look further into this. You are awesome.


So long story short can we get renewed documents within 60 days or not ?


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## NB (Mar 29, 2017)

Zeusaussy said:


> So long story short can we get renewed documents within 60 days or not ?


Why let the documents expire in the first place ?
Cheers


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## fugitive_4u (Nov 7, 2016)

NB said:


> Why let the documents expire in the first place ?
> Cheers


Didn't you see on this forum about 189 being dead ? 
That's exactly what happened with emotionally charged applicants equating DHA's decision based on pandemic related circumstances as being the end of PR. Now all of a sudden the 189 invitation round has re-kindled the urge to have an unrestricted PR which grants you easy pathway to citizenship and everyone is running helter-skelter. If there was some rational thought put through, they could've spotted and remediated their documents not slipping down the expiry path and helped their course.

I'm sure there would be many who are in this situation, but the question would be

Would applicants still apply paying Visa fees knowing well that they DON'T have the claimed points on the day of invite?
Or are they willing to take a bet around DHA being lenient if they managed to get renewed assessment (English and/or skills) within 60 days of invite and apply?

If DHA ends up approving Visas by being lenient, it could spin off an interesting legal matter, with many applicants who chose not to apply based on "rules", being let down terribly. Who knows, some may even challenge DHA on this.

Good luck to everyone, whichever path you take


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## Joseph85 (4 mo ago)

fugitive_4u said:


> Didn't you see on this forum about 189 being dead ?
> That's exactly what happened with emotionally charged applicants equating DHA's decision based on pandemic related circumstances as being the end of PR. Now all of a sudden the 189 invitation round has re-kindled the urge to have an unrestricted PR which grants you easy pathway to citizenship and everyone is running helter-skelter. If there was some rational thought put through, they could've spotted and remediated their documents not slipping down the expiry path and helped their course.
> 
> I'm sure there would be many who are in this situation, but the question would be
> ...



The federal case itself is a challenge to DHA and it has been won in court by the applicant. The judgment of the court is clear. The court clearly states that, there are more provisions in the law other than the one sentence stating that "it should be valid at the time of invitation" If DHA approves visas its not them being lenient but only complying with the judicial outcome. 

For those who haven't applied, why would they challenge DHA, it is the applicant's decision not to apply. No one stopped him/her.


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## Joseph85 (4 mo ago)

.


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## Joseph85 (4 mo ago)

NB said:


> Why let the documents expire in the first place ?
> Cheers



No one intentionally wants to get the documents expired? But look at someone who applied just before the pandemic and lost 3 years without any invitation and just got invited. 

Now read below:

The Full Federal Court went on to find that the Minister was required to consider any compelling circumstances which had arisen subsequent to the lodgement of the application for a protection visa.


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## fugitive_4u (Nov 7, 2016)

Joseph85 said:


> The federal case itself is a challenge to DHA and it has been won in court by the applicant. The judgment of the court is clear. The court clearly states that, there are more provisions in the law other than the one sentence stating that "it should be valid at the time of invitation" If DHA approves visas its not them being lenient but only complying with the judicial outcome.
> 
> For those who haven't applied, why would they challenge DHA, it is the applicant's decision not to apply. No one stopped him/her.


That's fair, however remember that court has not categorically declared that the applicant can claim, however it has directed the minister for due consideration. This stems from the fact that minister has unprecedent powers with regards to immigration and courts can hardly over rule it. See what happened with Djoker saga and if Minister wants to put down his / her foot on letting points to be valid on the date of invite, then he/she can do it with courts being able to do nothing.

In the Thapa case too, like you mentioned, if you watch the words carefully - *The Full Federal Court went on to find that the Minister was required to consider any compelling circumstances which had arisen subsequent to the lodgement of the application for a protection visa.* This means, minister will ask for compelling circumstances and what might that be? The applicant lost hope in Australian immigration system and did not bother? Or hardships arising from Covid situations which prevented the applicant from getting an updated assessment. Even with this evidence, minister by all means can still reject and unfortunately thats how much power has been bestowed by this act.

Either ways, I would be interested to know when someone does this and the outcome out of this.


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## Joseph85 (4 mo ago)

fugitive_4u said:


> That's fair, however remember that court has not categorically declared that the applicant can claim, however it has directed the minister for due consideration. This stems from the fact that minister has unprecedent powers with regards to immigration and courts can hardly over rule it. See what happened with Djoker saga and if Minister wants to put down his / her foot on letting points to be valid on the date of invite, then he/she can do it with courts being able to do nothing.
> 
> In the Thapa case too, like you mentioned, if you watch the words carefully - *The Full Federal Court went on to find that the Minister was required to consider any compelling circumstances which had arisen subsequent to the lodgement of the application for a protection visa.* This means, minister will ask for compelling circumstances and what might that be? The applicant lost hope in Australian immigration system and did not bother? Or hardships arising from Covid situations which prevented the applicant from getting an updated assessment. Even with this evidence, minister by all means can still reject and unfortunately thats how much power has been bestowed by this act.
> 
> Either ways, I would be interested to know when someone does this and the outcome out of this.


Looking at the judgement, the court does not seem to be that polite. Check the below 

THE COURT ORDERS THAT:

1.	The application is upheld.
2.	An order that the decision of the Administrative Appeals Tribunal be quashed.
3.	A writ of mandamus directed to the Administrative Appeals Tribunal requiring it to determine the applicant’s application according to law.
4.	The first respondent is to pay the first and second applicant’s costs fixed in the amount of $7,467.00.

Also the below:

28	Given that the invitation to apply for the visa allowed a 60 day period from the date of the invitation, it would seem to be a strange result that the applicant was unable to provide additional information which showed that the applicant met all the criteria for the grant of a visa. The particular unfairness in this matter is that the relevant skills assessment granted to the applicant, initially in 2015, did not specify a date of expiry. It was only as a result of the operation of cl 189.222 (d) of the Regulations that a three-year period was imported into the validity of the relevant skills assessment. 
29	The Court is satisfied that, in these circumstances, the construction which the first respondent contends leads to such plain unfairness and absurdity that it is not to be preferred. The Court adopts the words of the High Court in Berenguel, quoted above, that the alternative construction for which the plaintiff contends does not compromise the purpose of the Regulations. Further, this is consistent with the provisions of s 55 of the Act, which makes it explicitly clear that the Minister can be provided with further information up until the date of the Minister’s decision. This is precisely what happened in this case.
30	Clear words need to be used to indicate the relevant criteria needed to be satisfied, as at the “date” of the invitation, rather than in this case, during the period of the “time” of the invitation, which was specified as 60 days from the date of the letter.

CONCLUSION
31	The application is upheld and the Court grants the relief sought in the Initiating Application.


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

Joseph85 said:


> The federal case itself is a challenge to DHA and it has been won in court by the applicant. The judgment of the court is clear. The court clearly states that, there are more provisions in the law other than the one sentence stating that "it should be valid at the time of invitation" If DHA approves visas its not them being lenient but only complying with the judicial outcome.
> 
> For those who haven't applied, why would they challenge DHA, it is the applicant's decision not to apply. No one stopped him/her.


Well said mate


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## fugitive_4u (Nov 7, 2016)

Joseph85 said:


> Looking at the judgement, the court does not seem to be that polite. Check the below
> 
> THE COURT ORDERS THAT:
> 
> ...


Understood and agreed. That's what I meant, that courts can always direct / quash DHA and/or AAT, but cannot over ride a minister and that's how the powers have been vested within the Act. The court has directed the minister for consideration and Minister has full liberty to reject again or even keep the applicant hanging forever and courts can do nothing. Having said that if the minster directs DHA to not comply with expired assessments on the date of invite and allow applicants to refresh the same within the 60 days period, it's a great decision in favour of applicants. 

Also, this is what the page for 189 points tested stream says 


> Your skills assessment must have been obtained in the 3 years before the date of your invitation. If the assessment was for a shorter period, that period must not have passed.


What's the relevance of this condition in relation to the judgement you shared?


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

fugitive_4u said:


> Understood and agreed. That's what I meant, that courts can always direct / quash DHA and/or AAT, but cannot over ride a minister and that's how the powers have been vested within the Act. The court has directed the minister for consideration and Minister has full liberty to reject again or even keep the applicant hanging forever and courts can do nothing. Having said that if the minster directs DHA to not comply with expired assessments on the date of invite and allow applicants to refresh the same within the 60 days period, it's a great decision in favour of applicants.
> 
> Also, this is what the page for 189 points tested stream says
> 
> What's the relevance of this condition in relation to the judgement you shared?


This is where it get's complicated - why wouldn't DOHA simply edit 'before the date of invitation' to something like 'you need to demonstrate the validity of skills assessment within 60 days from the day you receive the invitation'

Or perhaps the 60 days timeframe is implied within the 'date of invitation' bit as the court stated as well


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## fugitive_4u (Nov 7, 2016)

RDStranger said:


> This is where it get's complicated - why wouldn't DOHA simply edit 'before the date of invitation' to something like 'you need to demonstrate the validity of skills assessment within 60 days from the day you receive the invitation'
> 
> Or perhaps the 60 days timeframe is implied within the 'date of invitation' bit as the court stated as well


Exactly...
If the judgement had such a bearing on DHA's decision, then it surely would've updated it's wording. Or maybe it has put this out there to rule out ambiguity after the shared judgement. Either ways, it certainly does not mean 60 days from invitation, when it says clearly .*..in the 3 years before the date of invitation*, and this date of invitation cannot be invitation date + 60  . How are applicants who are not lawyers meant to interpret this judgement in relation to DHA rules? Should they ignore, re-assess and apply within 60 days? or forego their invite?

Either ways, this judgement might be a unique case with applicant where he might have had genuine circumstances leading to his inability to renew the assessment, which is what the court has directed the minister to consider. Maybe applicants can argue their inability to re-assess their assessment owing to Covid restrictions, but since they have been lifted for eons now, how far this will fly with DHA is to be seen.


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

fugitive_4u said:


> Exactly...
> If the judgement had such a bearing on DHA's decision, then it surely would've updated it's wording. Or maybe it has put this out there to rule out ambiguity after the shared judgement. Either ways, it certainly does not mean 60 days from invitation, when it says clearly .*..in the 3 years before the date of invitation*, and this date of invitation cannot be invitation date + 60  . How are applicants who are not lawyers meant to interpret this judgement in relation to DHA rules? Should they ignore, re-assess and apply within 60 days? or forego their invite?
> 
> Either ways, this judgement might be a unique case with applicant where he might have had genuine circumstances leading to his inability to renew the assessment, which is what the court has directed the minister to consider. Maybe applicants can argue their inability to re-assess their assessment owing to Covid restrictions, but since they have been lifted for eons now, how far this will fly with DHA is to be seen.


Look very valid points. Given the elusive nature of these EOI invitations, I guess the ball is in applicant's court if they want to proceed further or not. I am all for glass half full approach though so I do want to believe that DHA should be fine or at-least I can hope for.

Now one interesting point in Thapa's case was that the skill assessment didn't have an expiry date so technically it wasn't invalid from the legal standpoint - maybe that's how court saw this. With someone like ACS it's pure black or white as they clearly mention the expiry date on the letter.


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## fugitive_4u (Nov 7, 2016)

RDStranger said:


> Look very valid points. Given the elusive nature of these EOI invitations, I guess the ball is in applicant's court if they want to proceed further or not. I am all for glass half full approach though so I do want to believe that DHA should be fine or at-least I can hope for.
> 
> Now one interesting point in Thapa's case was that the skill assessment didn't have an expiry date so technically it wasn't invalid from the legal standpoint - maybe that's how court saw this. With someone like ACS it's pure black or white as they clearly mention the expiry date on the letter.


Yes, which is why DHA has it's own validity set on each of these, be it English, skills or penal certificates..!

Would be good if some applicant takes these inputs to a credible MARA agent and hear their interpretation and share here. Would be good for the wider community..!

Interesting..!


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## Joseph85 (4 mo ago)

fugitive_4u said:


> Understood and agreed. That's what I meant, that courts can always direct / quash DHA and/or AAT, but cannot over ride a minister and that's how the powers have been vested within the Act. The court has directed the minister for consideration and Minister has full liberty to reject again or even keep the applicant hanging forever and courts can do nothing. Having said that if the minster directs DHA to not comply with expired assessments on the date of invite and allow applicants to refresh the same within the 60 days period, it's a great decision in favour of applicants.
> 
> Also, this is what the page for 189 points tested stream says
> 
> What's the relevance of this condition in relation to the judgement you shared?


Yes, it's in fact interpreted in different ways. Check the below 

In the case of Thapa v Minister for Immigration, Citizenship, Migrant Services and Multicultural Affairs [2021] FCCA 686 (12 April 2021), it was held that individuals holding an expired skills assessment can provide an updated skills assessment (subject to the result reflecting that of the expired skills assessment) within 60 days of receiving the invitation. This is because of the requirement for the skills assessment to be valid during the period of the “time” of the invitation, which is specified as 60 days from the date of the letter.



https://nevettfordlawyers.com.au/general-skilled-migration-what-you-need-to-know-if-your-skills-assessment-has-expired-prior-to-your-invitation/


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## Joseph85 (4 mo ago)

Also, check the below links for clarity;









“At the Time Of Invitation” Redefined


In Thapa v Minister , the FCC preferred the interpretation of ‘at the time of invitation’ to include the entire invitation period.




www.blmigration.com.au













Independent Skilled (Subclass 189) Visa - Ozzie Visa


Independent Skilled (Subclass 189) visa allows people who are not sponsored but have a skill that is in shortage to live and work in Australia permanently.




www.ozzievisa.com







https://nevettfordlawyers.com.au/general-skilled-migration-what-you-need-to-know-if-your-skills-assessment-has-expired-prior-to-your-invitation/











Can I apply for Visa if my Skill Assessment Expired? | AUSDIRECT MIGRATION


Can I apply for Visa if my Skill Assessment Expired? Based on a recent court judgement on 12 Apr 2021, the short answer is "Yes". Read on for more details...




ausdirectmigration.com


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## fugitive_4u (Nov 7, 2016)

Joseph85 said:


> Also, check the below links for clarity;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks mate,

Here is something interesting from the Judgement (copied verbatim from blmigration site you shared)



> *Findings*
> 
> It was not in dispute that the applicant did not hold a current skills assessment ‘at the time of invitation’.
> 
> ...


And guess what...
This is what DHA says now...



> Your skills assessment must have been obtained in the 3 years *before the date of your invitation*. If the assessment was for a shorter period, that period must not have passed.


It seems like DHA has updated the page so that this technicality on which the court directed DHA to consider the applicant's skill assessment cannot be applied any more.


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## Joseph85 (4 mo ago)

fugitive_4u said:


> Thanks mate,
> 
> Here is something interesting from the Judgement (copied verbatim from blmigration site you shared)
> 
> ...


The court is referring to the discrepancy, both wording is used by DHA , check below extract from the law 

189.222
(1)	At the time of invitation to apply for the visa:
(a) the relevant assessing authority had assessed the applicant’s skills as suitable for the applicant’s nominated skilled occupation; and
(b) the assessment was not for a Subclass 485 (Temporary Graduate) visa; and


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## Joseph85 (4 mo ago)

Plus there are registered MARA agents saying there is a solution to 189 invite but skill assessment expired. Check below;








https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02UFQcoXjxGD1LCgS2wgaAaKepgjW9E71bd4YvfPTWzRzMKhN3LgAcp9j2YDxz74wAl&id=1173619069318988


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## fugitive_4u (Nov 7, 2016)

Joseph85 said:


> The court is referring to the discrepancy, both wording is used by DHA , check below extract from the law
> 
> 189.222
> (1) At the time of invitation to apply for the visa:
> ...


That's great..!

I think all applicants who are in this situation can breath a sigh of relief, until (and if) minister decides to change the wording. *189.222* clause is a good find mate, Thanks, and this discussion is a great eye opener.
I looked at an AAT commentary too and here is what it says on Page#17



> Visas by invitation
> 
> The criteria for applicants seeking to satisfy the primary criteria for a Subclass 190, 189 Points-tested stream or pre-1 July 2017 Subclass 189 visa are:
> • invitation - the applicant was invited in writing by the Minister to apply for the visa. 29
> ...


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## xdennismike (Jan 3, 2017)

Hi all, Please help me with the below query on the validity of documents.
I have all the experience certificate with Roles and Responsibilities from different companies in 2017. But due to multiple immigration restrictions we haven't proceeded.
Please let me know can I use the same certificates for processing EOI now. 

Also, one experience certificate with Roles and Responsibity is an affidavit from manager, which was also received on 2017. 

Please advise.


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

Joseph85 said:


> The court is referring to the discrepancy, both wording is used by DHA , check below extract from the law
> 
> 189.222
> (1) At the time of invitation to apply for the visa:
> ...


Believe this should put the argument (if any) to rest. Unless the above wording is changed I don't see any issues in supplying a new skills assessment within 60 days.

The interesting question although is does the same logic apply to PTE/IELTS results as well?


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

fugitive_4u said:


> That's great..!
> 
> I think all applicants who are in this situation can breath a sigh of relief, until (and if) minister decides to change the wording. *189.222* clause is a good find mate, Thanks, and this discussion is a great eye opener.
> I looked at an AAT commentary too and here is what it says on Page#17


@fugitive_4u @Joseph85 Such crisp team work and problem solving. Love it. Fancy a career perhaps in migration law Gents?


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

xdennismike said:


> Hi all, Please help me with the below query on the validity of documents.
> I have all the experience certificate with Roles and Responsibilities from different companies in 2017. But due to multiple immigration restrictions we haven't proceeded.
> Please let me know can I use the same certificates for processing EOI now.
> 
> ...


You must have submitted these same documents for your skills assessment application right?. As long as you have a valid skills assessment (not 'expired') then yes I don't see any issues.


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## Joseph85 (4 mo ago)

RDStranger said:


> Believe this should put the argument (if any) to rest. Unless the above wording is changed I don't see any issues in supplying a new skills assessment within 60 days.
> 
> The interesting question although is does the same logic apply to PTE/IELTS results as well?


The answer I believe is YES based on the Administrative Appeals Tribunal Guidelines (AAT) commentary on page 17 and 18 published in Feb 2022.


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## xdennismike (Jan 3, 2017)

RDStranger said:


> You must have submitted these same documents for your skills assessment application right?. As long as you have a valid skills assessment (not 'expired') then yes I don't see any issues.


I have reapplied for duplicate skill assessment as the DIBP need Skill assessment in the last 2 years. But for EOI, can we use the same old experience Certificates along with EA Duplicate certificate.


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

xdennismike said:


> I have reapplied for duplicate skill assessment as the DIBP need Skill assessment in the last 2 years. But for EOI, can we use the same old experience Certificates along with EA Duplicate certificate.


There is no requirement of any 'experience certificates' for EOI. 

Your statement regarding 'DIBP needing skill assessment in the 2 years' is incorrect. EA ones don't have an expiry date so they are valid for 3 years

Refer to section - *General Skilled Migration (GSM) visas*



https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/working-in-australia/skills-assessment


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## Zeusaussy (3 mo ago)

Joseph85 said:


> The answer I believe is YES based on the Administrative Appeals Tribunal Guidelines (AAT) commentary on page 17 and 18 published in Feb 2022.





Joseph85 said:


> The answer I believe is YES based on the Administrative Appeals Tribunal Guidelines (AAT) commentary on page 17 and 18 published in Feb 2022.


You guys have really helped clear such a big obstacle for us first timers on 189 invite ! Thank you so much! 
One technical question revolving around this issue.
I got my renewed duplicate letter from skill assessment body today ! 
the eoi that I filed was with old expired skill assessment ID , when I file the visa page that prompts info regarding skill assessment should I include the new renewed ID and proceed OR the old ID on the eoi and later in visa documentation mention old and new reports in the next step !


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

Zeusaussy said:


> You guys have really helped clear such a big obstacle for us first timers on 189 invite ! Thank you so much!
> One technical question revolving around this issue.
> I got my renewed duplicate letter from skill assessment body today !
> the eoi that I filed was with old expired skill assessment ID , when I file the visa page that prompts info regarding skill assessment should I include the new renewed ID and proceed OR the old ID on the eoi and later in visa documentation mention old and new reports in the next step !


Include the new one in application. And under attachments you can attach both of them


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## fugitive_4u (Nov 7, 2016)

RDStranger said:


> @fugitive_4u @Joseph85 Such crisp team work and problem solving. Love it. Fancy a career perhaps in migration law Gents?


That should be the intention of these forums, i.e provide a solution and avoid any information that could mislead the audience. Thanks for the great find @Joseph85. Crazy this info was hidden from this forum.

Per the information commentary on AAT, this applies to every assessment which is mentioned as "*....valid at the time of invitation*" per the Migration Act.


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## Joseph85 (4 mo ago)

In summary, the below two links are of great help;

*Verdict of Thapa v Minister for Immigration, Citizenship, Migrant Services and Multicultural Affairs [2021] FCCA 686 *






Thapa v Minister for Immigration, Citizenship, Migrant Services and Multicultural Affairs [2021] FCCA 686 - BarNet Jade







jade.io





*Administrative Appeals Tribunal (AAT) Migration and Refugee Division Commentary Skilled Visas Current as of 17 December 2021*

https://www.aat.gov.au/AAT/media/AAT/Files/Documents/RELEASED-MRD-Commentary-Skilled-visas.pdf *Refer page 17 & 18*

The below statements from page 17 are crisp and clear.

*Visa criteria*
The criteria for the grant of a Subclass 189 visa and a Subclass 190 visa are set out in Parts 189 and 190 of Schedule 2 to the Regulations.
The Subclass 189 and 190 visas do not have ‘time of application’ and ‘time of decision’ criteria, although some, such as the skills assessment criteria, are expressed as applying at the ‘time of invitation’.* 27* Unless another temporal point is specified,* the criteria must be satisfied at the time of decision.

27* In Thapa v MICMSMA [2021] FCCA 686, the Court held at [28] – [30] that the words ‘at the time of invitation to apply for the visa’ in cl 189.222(1) meant the period within which the invitation was valid or open, not the date the invitation to apply was made or given to an applicant.* As the invitation expressed that it was valid for 60 days, it was open for the applicant to submit a skills assessment that had only been obtained during that period, even though it had not been in existence at the date the invitation was issued.* The Court’s reasoning would appear equally applicable to the similarly worded skills assessment requirement in cl 190.212(1)

I believe the above conversation will be of help to many. Cheers 🍺to all those who have got invites in Oct 2022 round.

Disclaimer: I'm not a MARA registered agent or an Immigration lawyer, you should take expert advise from RMA for your application.


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

fugitive_4u said:


> That should be the intention of these forums, i.e provide a solution and avoid any information that could mislead the audience. Thanks for the great find @Joseph85. Crazy this info was hidden from this forum.
> 
> Per the information commentary on AAT, this applies to every assessment which is mentioned as "*....valid at the time of invitation*" per the Migration Act.


Well I was the one who brought THAPA case to light on this thread so let's share the credit and call it team work 😜


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## Zeusaussy (3 mo ago)

RDStranger said:


> Well I was the one who brought THAPA case to light on this thread so let's share the credit and call it team work 😜


Thank you brother !! Yours and the teams hunt for this solution is appreciated ❤


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## ncher (10 mo ago)

ahmabd said:


> Thank you 🙂 This is really helpful. I have asked my mate to look further into this. You are awesome.


Hey, did you take up this case with any agent and reached any conclusion?


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## Joseph85 (4 mo ago)

ncher said:


> Hey, did you take up this case with any agent and reached any conclusion?


Let the agent use the below form to raise a query officially and get a response from DHA

Registered migration agent and legal practitioner enquiries and feedback






Registered migration agent and legal practitioner enquiries and feedback


This online form is provided for registered migration agents who require information on complex policy or procedural issues. Queries regarding specific cases should be directed to the relevant case officer or processing centre




immi.homeaffairs.gov.au


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## Dreamaus123 (3 mo ago)

Hi, In the point calculator it has been mentioned that the experience shall be within 10years. I have claimed more than 8years based on 2019 skill assessment. Do i need to do additional skill assessment for the recent experiences or just a duplicate letter for EA.


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

Dreamaus123 said:


> Hi, In the point calculator it has been mentioned that the experience shall be within 10years. I have claimed more than 8years based on 2019 skill assessment. Do i need to do additional skill assessment for the recent experiences or just a duplicate letter for EA.


Hey mate, no need to gain new skills assessment unless the current one expires. You just need to provide the usual set of docs like Contracts, payslips, R&R letter etc for this new employment episode


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## Dreamaus123 (3 mo ago)

Thanks mate. The current skill assessment is expired in DHA 3 year rule. So I have applied for a duplicated letter from engineers Australia, that will ammend the date of issue only. So my question is If I use that duplicate letter is it okay or I have to update the recent experience as well. Or Co from DHA will review our experience based on the documents what we are attaching.


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

Dreamaus123 said:


> Thanks mate. The current skill assessment is expired in DHA 3 year rule. So I have applied for a duplicated letter from engineers Australia, that will ammend the date of issue only. So my question is If I use that duplicate letter is it okay or I have to update the recent experience as well. Or Co from DHA will review our experience based on the documents what we are attaching.


The latter it is - CO will simply review your other documents. There is no legal or policy requirement to get each and every new employment episode assessed by relevant skills authority. If the employement is too complicated for a CO to understand (COs are not SMEs) they might ask you to get it assessed. So basically only if you are asked otherwise you are all good


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## Alex Ankaiah (4 mo ago)

Hello Savoirs!!

I am looking forward to try my luck to migrate to Australia. However, I am unable to find the Anzcode that is for accounts receivable. Please advise as which code I need to look for ?

Looking forward to hearing from you.

R/Alex


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

Alex Ankaiah said:


> Hello Savoirs!!
> 
> I am looking forward to try my luck to migrate to Australia. However, I am unable to find the Anzcode that is for accounts receivable. Please advise as which code I need to look for ?
> 
> ...


551111


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## ncher (10 mo ago)

Joseph85 said:


> Let the agent use the below form to raise a query officially and get a response from DHA
> 
> Registered migration agent and legal practitioner enquiries and feedback
> 
> ...


I believe I got the answer. If skills assessment is expired, we can blindly go for it based on reference case. On the worst case, you need to head to Tribunal and I believe we will get atleast a refund of visa fees. However if pte is expired, then we got no chance to apply.


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## dave91richardson (3 mo ago)

I have already got the duplicate letter from EA which is the same one as 3 years before with a new date. Will I be fine if I apply by attaching both documents? Still confused about the inconsistent wording by DHA about this issue.


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

dave91richardson said:


> I have already got the duplicate letter from EA which is the same one as 3 years before with a new date. Will I be fine if I apply by attaching both documents? Still confused about the inconsistent wording by DHA about this issue.


Answer is Yes, it appears you recently received an invite for 189 and had you EA assessment expired at the time of invitation?


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## dave91richardson (3 mo ago)

RDStranger said:


> Answer is Yes, it appears you recently received an invite for 189 and had you EA assessment expired at the time of invitation?


Yes. I was working out with my previous agent and the EA to renew my application when the invitation was received. It expired in June. But got the duplicate letter within just 5 days. But still, I didn't apply because of this uncertainty regarding the matter. Saw there are a lot of applicants caught up with expired documents with the sudden unexpected invites.


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

dave91richardson said:


> Yes. I was working out with my previous agent and the EA to renew my application when the invitation was received. It expired in June. But got the duplicate letter within just 5 days. But still, I didn't apply because of this uncertainty regarding the matter. Saw there are a lot of applicants caught up with expired documents with the sudden unexpected invites.


Well everyone is supposed to be on top of these things so what can one do. There is this little help available only thanks to THAPA case but that doesn't mean people should just let their documents expire.

Have you since June received another invite and have submitted your application?


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## dave91richardson (3 mo ago)

RDStranger said:


> Well everyone is supposed to be on top of these things so what can one do. There is this little help available only thanks to THAPA case but that doesn't mean people should just let their documents expire.
> 
> Have you since June received another invite and have submitted your application?


I did the previous assessment in 2019 June through an agent (who I'm no longer working with or have contacts). That agent submitted an EOI for 489 and didn't receive any invite. With covid and all the things going around, I didn't expect an invite any time sooner for Engineering professions. But was sending emails to EA since February to get a duplicate letter. They kept on saying I need to get the consent of the previous agent for that saying they no longer represent us. So had to find her and get her to sign the Ending appointment form for Migration Agent / Legal Practitioner / Exempt Person form. 

These things took a few months and eventually, the sudden invitation came. But the duplicate letter was received after 5 days of the invitation. Don't know what to do now. Every other thing is ok and ready to lodge.


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

dave91richardson said:


> I did the previous assessment in 2019 June through an agent (who I'm no longer working with or have contacts). That agent submitted an EOI for 489 and didn't receive any invite. With covid and all the things going around, I didn't expect an invite any time sooner for Engineering professions. But was sending emails to EA since February to get a duplicate letter. They kept on saying I need to get the consent of the previous agent for that saying they no longer represent us. So had to find her and get her to sign the Ending appointment form for Migration Agent / Legal Practitioner / Exempt Person form.
> 
> These things took a few months and eventually, the sudden invitation came. But the duplicate letter was received after 5 days of the invitation. Don't know what to do now. Every other thing is ok and ready to lodge.


Give proper context mate and happy to provide my further 2 cents - 

what exact visa subclass invite you have received 
what date you received this invite
what date you officially applied for your duplicate EA letter - i.e. the day you paid the money
what date you received that duplicate letter
can you claim each and every point on your EOI


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## dave91richardson (3 mo ago)

RDStranger said:


> Give proper context mate and happy to provide my further 2 cents -
> 
> what exact visa subclass invite you have received
> what date you received this invite
> ...



what exact visa subclass invite you have received - 189 Subclass
what date you received this invite - 06/10/2022
what date you officially applied for your duplicate EA letter - i.e. the day you paid the money - 06/10/2022
what date you received that duplicate letter - 11/10/2022
can you claim each and every point on your EOI - Yes everything can be claimed easily.
I have no problem other than the skill assessment issue. My points breakdown is as follows.
Age - 30
Degree - 15
English - 20
Single - 10

I have around 47 more days to lodge the visa.


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

dave91richardson said:


> what exact visa subclass invite you have received - 189 Subclass
> what date you received this invite - 06/10/2022
> what date you officially applied for your duplicate EA letter - i.e. the day you paid the money - 06/10/2022
> what date you received that duplicate letter - 11/10/2022
> ...


Now I see the complete picture. I really don't see an issue here. Simply mention the new EA assessment letter ID in the application and you are good to go. Technically EA assessment never expires so you really didn't have an expired document to start with and now you have a duplicated letter anyways. If you will read THAPA case you will understand this - there is a crystal clear legal precedence for you.

Just trust your guts mate, apply and you will be fine.


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## dave91richardson (3 mo ago)

RDStranger said:


> Now I see the complete picture. I really don't see an issue here. Simply mention the new EA assessment letter ID in the application and you are good to go. Technically EA assessment never expires so you really didn't have an expired document to start with and now you have a duplicated letter anyways. If you will read THAPA case you will understand this - there is a crystal clear legal precedence for you.
> 
> Just trust your guts mate, apply and you will be fine.


Thank you for your guidance. I was actually grinding through the forums and the court case you mentioned. Also saw the Tribunal comments regarding that. Saw 2 guys even got grants with the same conditions as myself. But with the current offshore targetted invitation round there are a lot of such applicants who have expired documents, will the DHA approve them all or will it depend upon the CO?


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

dave91richardson said:


> Thank you for your guidance. I was actually grinding through the forums and the court case you mentioned. Also saw the Tribunal comments regarding that. Saw 2 guys even got grants with the same conditions as myself. But with the current offshore targetted invitation round there are a lot of such applicants who have expired documents, will the DHA approve them all or will it depend upon the CO?


Mate you are asking the same question again and again and really not sure what answer you are looking for.

Either consult a reputed Immigration Lawyer or as I said simply file your application (as per me there is no issue whatso ever here)


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## Badi90 (3 mo ago)

Hi there,
I am going am through a similar situation. My English test expired while waiting to be invited, with lockdown and other reasons I didn’t get it done on time. Now I have been invited and given the 60 days to submit my application (with my English test expired). So I have obtained another English test since I have been invited and the results would give me the same about of points that I claimed on my EOI.
What shall I do? Proceed with my application or wait for the invitation to expire and submit a new EOI with my new English test?
Any advice, would be appreciated.
Thank you everyone


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

Badi90 said:


> Hi there,
> I am going am through a similar situation. My English test expired while waiting to be invited, with lockdown and other reasons I didn’t get it done on time. Now I have been invited and given the 60 days to submit my application (with my English test expired). So I have obtained another English test since I have been invited and the results would give me the same about of points that I claimed on my EOI.
> What shall I do? Proceed with my application or wait for the invitation to expire and submit a new EOI with my new English test?
> Any advice, would be appreciated.
> Thank you everyone


Study THAPA case + consult a reputed Immigration Lawyer then proceed based on the advice and your analysis.

If you have nothing to lose and finance is not an issue then you can just take the chance and apply for visa. For skills assessment there has been a clear legal precedence but I am not so sure about english tests. It's totally going to be your call


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## bebsiman (3 mo ago)

Thanks All for your comments/advice! 
I just got my duplicate letter from EA. in the Visa application shall I put the original date of the old letter or the new date "which is after the invitation date" please advise if someone was in the same situation  
In the documents of course I will be attaching both!


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## xdennismike (Jan 3, 2017)

Hi all, When should I apply EOI. 
My EA Skill assessment was received on Oct 2017. I have reapplied EA Duplicate skill assessment.
Should I wait for EA Duplicate Assessment letter or Can I apply EOI with existing letter and wait for the duplicate letter. Please advise.


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## bebsiman (3 mo ago)

xdennismike said:


> Hi all, When should I apply EOI.
> My EA Skill assessment was received on Oct 2017. I have reapplied EA Duplicate skill assessment.
> Should I wait for EA Duplicate Assessment letter or Can I apply EOI with existing letter and wait for the duplicate letter. Please advise.


waiting is better it will only take 10 - 12 days. I just got mine on 17/10 and applied for it on 7/10


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## xdennismike (Jan 3, 2017)

bebsiman said:


> waiting is better it will only take 10 - 12 days. I just got mine on 17/10 and applied for it on 7/10


Thanks me too applied on 7/10.. and waiting. Fingers crossed..


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## bebsiman (3 mo ago)

xdennismike said:


> Thanks me too applied on 7/10.. and waiting. Fingers crossed..


Did you fill this form: Duplicate / Updated Letter Request , cause it gives notification for EA and speeds things up


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

bebsiman said:


> Thanks All for your comments/advice!
> I just got my duplicate letter from EA. in the Visa application shall I put the original date of the old letter or the new date "which is after the invitation date" please advise if someone was in the same situation
> In the documents of course I will be attaching both!


You should put the new date of the new letter and ofcourse attach both


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## xdennismike (Jan 3, 2017)

bebsiman said:


> Did you fill this form: Duplicate / Updated Letter Request , cause it gives notification for EA and speeds things up


Yes I did


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

mehakahuja said:


> I did the previous assessment in 2019 June through an agent (who I'm no longer working with or have contacts). That agent submitted an EOI for 489 and didn't receive any invite. With covid and all the things going around, I didn't expect an invite any time sooner for Engineering professions. But was sending emails to EA since February to get a duplicate letter. They kept on saying I need to get the consent of the previous agent for that saying they no longer represent us. So had to find her and get her to sign the Ending appointment form for Migration Agent / Legal Practitioner / Exempt Person form.
> 
> These things took a few months and eventually, the sudden invitation came. But the duplicate letter was received after 5 days of the invitation. Don't know what to do now. Every other thing is ok and ready to lodge.


What Visa subclass is this for? You need to study THAPA case. I believe you will be fine as you have valid skills assessment before applying for the Visa.


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## dave91richardson (3 mo ago)

RDStranger said:


> What Visa subclass is this for? You need to study THAPA case. I believe you will be fine as you have valid skills assessment before applying for the Visa.


Just saw this on facebook..someone had commented. Can a CO act on his own?

"5th Nov Pre invite
5th Nov Skill assessment was valid
6th applied for new one 
8th informed RDA orana about it, they were happy to accept and willing to wait for my new skill assessment 
1st Dec got final invite 
13th dec new skill assessment 
Visa lodged 1st of Jan 2022

29Jun 2022 Visa officer rejected my visa, claiming that I did not had a valid skill assessment at the time of invitation. 

An applicant seeking to satisfy this criterion must have provided evidence of having obtained a suitable skills assessment for their nominated occupation at the time they were invited to apply for a State Territory Nominated - Regional (PS 491)(Points Tested) visa.
On 01 December 2021, the applicant was invited to apply for a State Territory Nominated - Regional (PS 491)(Points Tested) visa, and subsequently lodged their visa application on 01 January 2022.
In the application the applicant advised that they had obtained, at time of invitation to apply for this visa, a suitable skills assessment for their nominated skilled occupation, Computer Network and Systems Engineer 263111.
In support of their application, the applicant provided a copy of the Skills Assessment issued by Australian Computer Society Incorporated on 05 November 2019 with reference number A-27**. The applicant also provided a Skills Assessment issued by Australian Computer Society Incorporated on 14 December 2021 with reference number A-34**.
As the applicant was invited to apply on 01 December 2021, I cannot consider the Skills Assessment with reference number A-34****, dated 14 December 2021 as it was issued after the invitation to apply for the visa.
The skills assessment with reference number A-27*** issued by Australian Computer Society Incorporated, dated 05 November 2019 was valid for 24 months from date of issue. Therefore, it is not a valid skills assessment at the time they were invited to apply.
While the application included evidence that the relevant assessing authority had assessed the applicant’s skills in relation to the nominated skilled occupation as suitable."


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## NB (Mar 29, 2017)

dave91richardson said:


> Just saw this on facebook..someone had commented. Can a CO act on his own?
> 
> "5th Nov Pre invite
> 5th Nov Skill assessment was valid
> ...


I have always maintained that it’s not possible for every applicant to fight out his case with DHA like Thapa if their application is rejected, as it has happened in this case
If the applicant is offshore, he doesn’t have the rights to appeal to AAT and has to approach the courts which will be very costly 
Cheers


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

dave91richardson said:


> Just saw this on facebook..someone had commented. Can a CO act on his own?
> 
> "5th Nov Pre invite
> 5th Nov Skill assessment was valid
> ...


Unfortuntely this is how the system works
Yes COs do make decisions as per their discretion - it may not be the right decision though. If candidate was onshore he had right to appeal it but for offshore ones nothing can be done.

For every rejection like this you will see an approval as well so you need to understand the stakes for your own case


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## dave91richardson (3 mo ago)

RDStranger said:


> Unfortuntely this is how the system works
> Yes COs do make decisions as per their discretion - it may not be the right decision though. If candidate was onshore he had right to appeal it but for offshore ones nothing can be done.
> 
> For every rejection like this you will see an approval as well so you need to understand the stakes for your own case


Yeah, that's the hardest part. Just have to apply and hope we get a better CO. There are a lot of offshore applicants facing the same issue. Don't know why they invited so many offshore applicants with expired documents. May be just to earn some extra money and easily reject the visas. Don't get the logic behind it.


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

dave91richardson said:


> Yeah, that's the hardest part. Just have to apply and hope we get a better CO. There are a lot of offshore applicants facing the same issue. Don't know why they invited so many offshore applicants with expired documents. May be just to earn some extra money and easily reject the visas. Don't get the logic behind it.


Don't blame the system mate. Immi team don't look at any fields whatso ever in the EOI. Invites gets issued out in bulk- all automated. It is the applicant's responsibility to make sure all of their info is current


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## NB (Mar 29, 2017)

RDStranger said:


> Unfortuntely this is how the system works
> Yes COs do make decisions as per their discretion - it may not be the right decision though. If candidate was onshore he had right to appeal it but for offshore ones nothing can be done.
> 
> For every rejection like this you will see an approval as well so you need to understand the stakes for your own case


Everyone was quoting Thapa case left and right making applicants believe that there is no danger in applying even if their assessment were expired one the date of the final invite
This was a very false sense of security 
Members should make sure that they highlight the danger of rejection when they quote the Thapa case
Cheers


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## dave91richardson (3 mo ago)

NB said:


> Everyone was quoting Thapa case left and right making applicants believe that there is no danger in applying even if their assessment were expired one the date of the final invite
> This was a very false sense of security
> Members should make sure that they highlight the danger of rejection when they quote the Thapa case
> Cheers


Yeah, even I was thinking it was safe before I saw that comment regarding a visa refusal. That was just 3,4 months ago. So we never know how our case will be handled even if there is clear legal precedence for this case. Looks like we will see more refusals (as well as grants) in future. Not sure whether to apply or not.


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

NB said:


> Everyone was quoting Thapa case left and right making applicants believe that there is no danger in applying even if their assessment were expired one the date of the final invite
> This was a very false sense of security
> Members should make sure that they highlight the danger of rejection when they quote the Thapa case
> Cheers


Yes all fair and valid points mate. My personal belief is that assessments like Engineer's Australia one might get looked differently as they never expire technically and they literally issue a duplicate letter vs let's say the ACS one clearly mentioning the the expiry date in the outcome letter.

But yes the dangers needs to be highlighted even more clearly. Members seeking advise/opinion on expat forum do realise that they are not getting a formal professional legal advise from any of the members so the onus is on them to do the necessary due diligence and make the right decision.

@Moulard this gets interesting now doesn't it?


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## Joseph85 (4 mo ago)

dave91richardson said:


> Just saw this on facebook..someone had commented. Can a CO act on his own?
> 
> "5th Nov Pre invite
> 5th Nov Skill assessment was valid
> ...


Mate,

You cannot draw parallels between Thappa case and the above quoted situation. You need to read the case verdict very carefully. Below is an extract of the case verdict.


" 28. Given that the invitation to apply for the visa allowed a 60 day period from the date of the invitation, it would seem to be a strange result that the applicant was unable to provide additional information which showed that the applicant met all the criteria for the grant of a visa. The particular unfairness in this matter is that the relevant skills assessment granted to the applicant, initially in 2015, did not specify a date of expiry. It was only as a result of the operation of cl 189.222 (d) of the Regulations that a three-year period was imported into the validity of the relevant skills assessment."

ACS skill assessment has a validity of 2 years, whereas Engineers Australia skill assessment is life time valid. It's DHA who says to bring a skill assessment dated last 3 years.

Hope you understand the difference.

Saying that yes, there is still a risk involved and which can only be cleared by a registered MARA agent or a lawyer or DHA themselves.


----------



## dave91richardson (3 mo ago)

Joseph85 said:


> Mate,
> 
> You cannot draw parallels between Thappa case and the above quoted situation. You need to read the case verdict very carefully. Below is an extract of the case verdict.
> 
> ...


Even the Mara agents don't have a clear idea about this. So may be the COs as well. Some may go with the court order and others don't. But there is very little we can do from offshore if they refuse our visa.

Having an expiry date on ACS letter may be the reason for CO to reject that. But other assessments also expire as per the 3 year rule by DHA. So cannot predict what would happen.


----------



## Zeusaussy (3 mo ago)

dave91richardson said:


> Even the Mara agents don't have a clear idea about this. So may be the COs as well. Some may go with the court order and others don't. But there is very little we can do from offshore if they refuse our visa.
> 
> Having an expiry date on ACS letter may be the reason for CO to reject that. But other assessments also expire as per the 3 year rule by DHA. So cannot predict what would happen.


I asked a plenty of paid consultants and agents they say the way the various assessing bodies have specifically mentioned their expiration dates for example , nursing accounts computers all have “written” on their outcomes when they expire so the CO in these cases where an invitation is filed with expired certificate can refuse, where as the only body that doesn’t mention the expiration date is engineers Australia, their validity is perpetual tho border control requires a outcome within 3 years of issue. So the likelihood of refusal decreases. These are just speculations and I’ve been doing research on this ! No one knows a solution to this yet but in my opinion the risk to gamble having and EA skill select if lesser than the gamble of any other assessing body. If there’s anyone who can actively hunt down a solution in this forum we all will Nell be so thankful !


----------



## dave91richardson (3 mo ago)

Zeusaussy said:


> I asked a plenty of paid consultants and agents they say the way the various assessing bodies have specifically mentioned their expiration dates for example , nursing accounts computers all have “written” on their outcomes when they expire so the CO in these cases where an invitation is filed with expired certificate can refuse, where as the only body that doesn’t mention the expiration date is engineers Australia, their validity is perpetual tho border control requires a outcome within 3 years of issue. So the likelihood of refusal decreases. These are just speculations and I’ve been doing research on this ! No one knows a solution to this yet but in my opinion the risk to gamble having and EA skill select if lesser than the gamble of any other assessing body. If there’s anyone who can actively hunt down a solution in this forum we all will Nell be so thankful !


Yes absolutely. If someone can share their experience or provide a concrete answer to this issue highly appreciate that. I have personally seen more than 20 people who got invitations with expired assessments. If all are rejected it will be a great shame.


----------



## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

Zeusaussy said:


> I asked a plenty of paid consultants and agents they say the way the various assessing bodies have specifically mentioned their expiration dates for example , nursing accounts computers all have “written” on their outcomes when they expire so the CO in these cases where an invitation is filed with expired certificate can refuse, where as the only body that doesn’t mention the expiration date is engineers Australia, their validity is perpetual tho border control requires a outcome within 3 years of issue. So the likelihood of refusal decreases. These are just speculations and I’ve been doing research on this ! No one knows a solution to this yet but in my opinion the risk to gamble having and EA skill select if lesser than the gamble of any other assessing body. If there’s anyone who can actively hunt down a solution in this forum we all will Nell be so thankful !


I concur with the decreased risk assessment - still risky though


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## dave91richardson (3 mo ago)

RDStranger said:


> I concur with the decreased risk assessment - still risky though


Anyway its worth the risk. Even if the visa is rejected don't see a reason for a ban. So will be able to apply again if another EOI gets an invitation.


----------



## Joseph85 (4 mo ago)

Zeusaussy said:


> I asked a plenty of paid consultants and agents they say the way the various assessing bodies have specifically mentioned their expiration dates for example , nursing accounts computers all have “written” on their outcomes when they expire so the CO in these cases where an invitation is filed with expired certificate can refuse, where as the only body that doesn’t mention the expiration date is engineers Australia, their validity is perpetual tho border control requires a outcome within 3 years of issue. So the likelihood of refusal decreases. These are just speculations and I’ve been doing research on this ! No one knows a solution to this yet but in my opinion the risk to gamble having and EA skill select if lesser than the gamble of any other assessing body. If there’s anyone who can actively hunt down a solution in this forum we all will Nell be so thankful !


Let the agent use the below form to raise a query officially and get a response from DHA

Registered migration agent and legal practitioner enquiries and feedback






Registered migration agent and legal practitioner enquiries and feedback


This online form is provided for registered migration agents who require information on complex policy or procedural issues. Queries regarding specific cases should be directed to the relevant case officer or processing centre




immi.homeaffairs.gov.au


----------



## NB (Mar 29, 2017)

dave91richardson said:


> Yes absolutely. If someone can share their experience or provide a concrete answer to this issue highly appreciate that. I have personally seen more than 20 people who got invitations with expired assessments. If all are rejected it will be a great shame.


I am speechless that so many applicants would allow their assessment to expire and yet keep their EOI in the system
They should have got their assessment done again before the expiry to maintain continuity or suspended the eoi till such time that they have the assessment in hand
Cheers


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## plcaau (Jan 22, 2017)

Yes exactly, all of those from Offshore with expired skills assessments who are applying are wasting their money by applying with a duplicate letter. Offshore applicants cannot appeal, thus THAPA case means nothing. Plus once you lodge the visa, then there is no point in even putting in a new EOI as you can’t have two applications in the system for the same visa subclass. So they apply, wait 1 year for visa processing and rejection, then they lost 1 year where they could of had a legitimate invite.

The largest migration company in Australia has said the reason they issued so many invites in August and September is because 50% of them will be ineligible due to expired skills assessments and English tests. So only half of the invites will actually be lodged, let alone granted.


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## Zeusaussy (3 mo ago)

plcaau said:


> Yes exactly, all of those from Offshore with expired skills assessments who are applying are wasting their money by applying with a duplicate letter. Offshore applicants cannot appeal, thus THAPA case means nothing. Plus once you lodge the visa, then there is no point in even putting in a new EOI as you can’t have two applications in the system for the same visa subclass. So they apply, wait 1 year for visa processing and rejection, then they lost 1 year where they could of had a legitimate invite.
> 
> The largest migration company in Australia has said the reason they issued so many invites in August and September is because 50% of them will be ineligible due to expired skills assessments and English tests. So only half of the invites will actually be lodged, let alone granted.


I do agree that applying a visa with expired skill assessment is a gamble right now expecting a positive result. But there’s no sure shot evidence yet. Some have been granted in the past provided their assessing body was engineers Australia as their outcomes are perpetually valid. 
can you please provide a SOURCE for your information so applicants can weigh which ever side and make a decision.


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## dave91richardson (3 mo ago)

NB said:


> I am speechless that so many applicants would allow their assessment to expire and yet keep their EOI in the system
> They should have got their assessment done again before the expiry to maintain continuity or suspended the eoi till such time that they have the assessment in hand
> Cheers


It's because offshore applicants were overlooked for more than two and half years. People who did skills assessment in 2019 expecting an invite in a few months lost all hopes of it when boarders were closed and invitation rounds, specially 189 came to an end. So nobody expected invites to offshore people at less points this early in the financial year. 

DHA also didn't say anything regarding their intentions of doing offshore invitations. I'm sure most offshore applicants either forgot or didn't want to update documents just to see them to expire again. Some of them were already in the process to renew them when they receive the invite. For me I was trying for months and my assessment was received just 5 days after the invite.


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## Joseph85 (4 mo ago)

Zeusaussy said:


> I do agree that applying a visa with expired skill assessment is a gamble right now expecting a positive result. But there’s no sure shot evidence yet. Some have been granted in the past provided their assessing body was engineers Australia as their outcomes are perpetually valid.
> can you please provide a SOURCE for your information so applicants can weigh which ever side and make a decision.



The only way to get a firm and legitimate answer is to contact DHA through the above online form and wait for an answer. Hopefully they would respond.


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## plcaau (Jan 22, 2017)

Zeusaussy said:


> I do agree that applying a visa with expired skill assessment is a gamble right now expecting a positive result. But there’s no sure shot evidence yet. Some have been granted in the past provided their assessing body was engineers Australia as their outcomes are perpetually valid.
> *can you please provide a SOURCE for your information* so applicants can weigh which ever side and make a decision.


Yes, go to Au.....zzz migration facebook group, and then scroll down to their post from Oct 6 where they explain why so many invites and only 50% will be used.


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## Joseph85 (4 mo ago)

dave91richardson said:


> It's because offshore applicants were overlooked for more than two and half years. People who did skills assessment in 2019 expecting an invite in a few months lost all hopes of it when boarders were closed and invitation rounds, specially 189 came to an end. So nobody expected invites to offshore people at less points this early in the financial year.
> 
> DHA also didn't say anything regarding their intentions of doing offshore invitations. I'm sure most offshore applicants either forgot or didn't want to update documents just to see them to expire again. Some of them were already in the process to renew them when they receive the invite. For me I was trying for months and my assessment was received just 5 days after the invite.


As the Australian minister said the system is broken, 

1. There is no need for Skill select to send invites for candidates who has expired documents. The system can be very easily automated so that only people with valid documents as per system records would be invited. 

2. There is no point of giving repeated invites even after applying for a visa. I mean once let's say someone is issued a 491 invite and already made a visa application, what is the point of giving another invitation, this just adds confusion and delays to processing.

3. If Australia has skill shortage and wants skilled people, why would the visa processing take 2 years, this just do not serve any purpose.

4. The offshore applicants do not have appeal rights, meaning they are not treated equally as onshore applicants, it's unfair to offshore applicants that they don't have a venue to fight their case. In case of applicants with Engineers Australia skill assessment expiry, this is a winning case if it reaches AAT. 

5. Now coming to our scenario if Engineers Australia says their skill assessment is life long valid, why would DHA say it's only considered for 3 years. What is the logic here, further Engineers Australia says they can issue a duplicate certificate with a current date. So there is no logic here, just war of words. Without considering the actual purpose of the law. 

It seems the immigration system needs an overhaul even looking at it by someone with limited experience.


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## Zeusaussy (3 mo ago)

plcaau said:


> Yes, go to Au.....zzz migration facebook group, and then scroll down to their post from Oct 6 where they explain why so many invites and only 50% will be used.


This reply is so deceptive it doesn’t provide source! This just cuts the need to find a solution for this ongoing problem! If there’s a site shot evidence place provide so we can calculate based on it !


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## NB (Mar 29, 2017)

Joseph85 said:


> As the Australian minister said the system is broken,
> 
> 1. There is no need for Skill select to send invites for candidates who has expired documents. The system can be very easily automated so that only people with valid documents as per system records would be invited.
> 
> ...


Do you know that Australia has nearly 100 different visas and New Zealand has only 10?
There was a proposal a couple of years back to merge the visas into just 10 or even less like NZ, but nothing happened
There is no political will to carry it through , no matter who is in power
Cheers


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## NB (Mar 29, 2017)

Joseph85 said:


> As the Australian minister said the system is broken,
> 
> 1. There is no need for Skill select to send invites for candidates who has expired documents. The system can be very easily automated so that only people with valid documents as per system records would be invited.
> 
> ...


Half the problem in Skillselect can be solved by one simple and easy restriction
One applicant can submit only one EOI
Let the system check against the passport so it’s very easy to implement
But again, DHA doesn’t want to implement it as they want to show that they sent so many invites, but in actuality they know only half will apply as other half are duplicates or ineligible 
Cheers


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

NB said:


> Do you know that Australia has nearly 100 different visas and New Zealand has only 10?
> There was a proposal a couple of years back to merge the visas into just 10 or even less like NZ, but nothing happened
> There is no political will to carry it through , no matter who is in power
> Cheers


Change often takes time brother. I have my faith in Labor government, and the full e2e review of australia's immigration is already underway as we speak.


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

NB said:


> Half the problem in Skillselect can be solved by one simple and easy restriction
> One applicant can submit only one EOI
> Let the system check against the passport so it’s very easy to implement
> But again, DHA doesn’t want to implement it as they want to show that they sent so many invites, but in actuality they know only half will apply as other half are duplicates or ineligible
> Cheers


Or even perhaps do it like NZ - applicants have to pay like $200-300 NZD thus only the genuine applicants in the overall pool at any given point in time


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## madwiusa (4 mo ago)

RDStranger said:


> There is a precedence specific to expired Skills assessment as per THAPA case. Ask your mate to research the Thapa case and also consult a reputed MARA agent or Immigration lawyer. My understanding from THAPA case is that as long as new PTE result and EA assessment can be obtained within the 60 days he should be able to file his application.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Let me extent this question and explain my situation. My spouse received invitation on 7/10 for Visa 189. He has every document up to date, however to claim partner 10 points, we have submitted valid PTE score and 2015 skills assignment into EOI. however, while submitting visa applying we have found partner skills have to submitted within 3 years validly ( this not mentioned at time of EOI submission). Now, We I have received my updated skill assessment what should I do this case? any suggestion, please note I am talking about partner skill assessment not primary applicant. reference our earlier understand on my question: "_17.8 Partner’s nominated skill occupation and skills assessment For the purpose of awarding partner points, the nominated occupation of the partner (that is, spouse or de facto partner) must be on the Occupation List(s) applicable to the point-tested visa that the primary applicant has applied for. A suitable skills assessment required for paragraph 6D111 must have been obtained at time of invitation *but is not subject to the time periods prescribed in Schedule 2 *and which apply to the primary applicant. This means that a suitable skills assessment obtained more than three years prior to the date of invitation can be accepted for this criterion._"


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## madwiusa (4 mo ago)

Any suggestion on my situation: 

My spouse received invitation on 7/10 for Visa 189. He has every document up to date, however to claim partner 10 points, we have submitted my (partner) valid PTE score and 2015 skills assignment into EOI. However, while submitting visa applying we have found partner skills have to submitted within 3 years validly ( this not mentioned at time of EOI submission).
Now, I have received my updated skill assessment (partner) what should I do this case? Shall I update the application with correct Skills assessment letter.

Any suggestion, please note I am talking about partner skill assessment not primary applicant. 

reference our earlier understand on my question:
*"*_*17.8 Partner’s nominated skill occupation and skills assessment*
For the purpose of awarding partner points, the nominated occupation of the partner (that is, spouse or de facto partner) must be on the Occupation List(s) applicable to the point-tested visa that the primary applicant has applied for.
A suitable skills assessment required for paragraph 6D111 must have been obtained at time of invitation but is not subject to the time periods prescribed in Schedule 2 and which apply to the primary applicant. *This means that a suitable skills assessment obtained more than three years prior to the date of invitation can be accepted for this criterion.*_"


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## NB (Mar 29, 2017)

madwiusa said:


> Any suggestion on my situation:
> 
> My spouse received invitation on 7/10 for Visa 189. He has every document up to date, however to claim partner 10 points, we have submitted my (partner) valid PTE score and 2015 skills assignment into EOI. However, while submitting visa applying we have found partner skills have to submitted within 3 years validly ( this not mentioned at time of EOI submission).
> Now, I have received my updated skill assessment (partner) what should I do this case? Shall I update the application with correct Skills assessment letter.
> ...


The time limit for accepting the invite is already over
What’s your point ?
Cheers


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## RDStranger (Oct 31, 2021)

madwiusa said:


> Let me extent this question and explain my situation. My spouse received invitation on 7/10 for Visa 189. He has every document up to date, however to claim partner 10 points, we have submitted valid PTE score and 2015 skills assignment into EOI. however, while submitting visa applying we have found partner skills have to submitted within 3 years validly ( this not mentioned at time of EOI submission). Now, We I have received my updated skill assessment what should I do this case? any suggestion, please note I am talking about partner skill assessment not primary applicant. reference our earlier understand on my question: "_17.8 Partner’s nominated skill occupation and skills assessment For the purpose of awarding partner points, the nominated occupation of the partner (that is, spouse or de facto partner) must be on the Occupation List(s) applicable to the point-tested visa that the primary applicant has applied for. A suitable skills assessment required for paragraph 6D111 must have been obtained at time of invitation *but is not subject to the time periods prescribed in Schedule 2 *and which apply to the primary applicant. This means that a suitable skills assessment obtained more than three years prior to the date of invitation can be accepted for this criterion._"


Feedback for you - try and write in bullet points structure in a chronological manner. Really hard to understand what happened when.

Nevertheless I am assuming you have already applied for the visa and have now received new skills assessment. I think it will be ok - simply attach this to the immi account. 

For absolutely certainty you need to consult a Immigration lawyer.


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## JohnJarret (1 mo ago)

Zeusaussy said:


> You guys have really helped clear such a big obstacle for us first timers on 189 invite ! Thank you so much! One technical question revolving around this issue. I got my renewed duplicate letter from skill assessment body today ! the eoi that I filed was with old expired skill assessment ID , when I file the visa page that prompts info regarding skill assessment should I include the new renewed ID and proceed OR the old ID on the eoi and later in visa documentation mention old and new reports in the next step !


 Hey there, can you please update us about your visa application and the outcome as well as to wjat


Zeusaussy said:


> You guys have really helped clear such a big obstacle for us first timers on 189 invite ! Thank you so much! One technical question revolving around this issue. I got my renewed duplicate letter from skill assessment body today ! the eoi that I filed was with old expired skill assessment ID , when I file the visa page that prompts info regarding skill assessment should I include the new renewed ID and proceed OR the old ID on the eoi and later in visa documentation mention old and new reports in the next step !


hey mate, can you please update us about your visa application, hope you would’ve got it approved


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## JohnJarret (1 mo ago)

Zeusaussy said:


> You guys have really helped clear such a big obstacle for us first timers on 189 invite ! Thank you so much!
> One technical question revolving around this issue.
> I got my renewed duplicate letter from skill assessment body today !
> the eoi that I filed was with old expired skill assessment ID , when I file the visa page that prompts info regarding skill assessment should I include the new renewed ID and proceed OR the old ID on the eoi and later in visa documentation mention old and new reports in the next step !


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