# Spanish languages and accents



## davidbroughton (Feb 26, 2011)

Hi all

I'm new to the forum and am considering a possible move to Spain. It's early days yet, but I am trying to narrow down a few areas to go and have a look at.

My first concern is the language issue. I am currently having Spanish lessons in the UK, but am aware that the Spanish spoken in Spain can vary greatly between regions.

The first area I am considering is Andalucia, either costal or further inland, but I am primarily looking at the province of Malaga. I have been told that the Spanish spoken in this area carries a very heavy accent, which makes it difficult to understand, even for people from other parts of Spain! Is the accent in this area as unintelligible as I have been led to believe? How does this vary between urban/rural, costal/inland, east/west etc.? This might strike some as being an odd question to ask, but I would prefer to move somewhere where I can understand and be understood.

The second area I am considering is North Costa Blanca. What is used as the primary language in this area, Valencian or Castilian? Is the Spanish spoken in this area generally easier to understand than the Andalucian variety? How difficult is Valencian to learn? Would I really need to learn it to fully integrate, or is it possible to get by with just Spanish?

Sorry, so many questions! 

Looking forward to hearing your experiences, and any advice is much appreciated.

Thanks.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Andalucia does have an accent and so does Málaga, but its probably akin to the difference between say, geordie and southern england. So the people here DO understand "normal" Spanish and once you "tune in" you'll understand them. They simply tend to shorten everything and drop some consonants ie, "por favor" becomes "porfa". They also sort of lisp when they say "c" ie "Gracias" becomes "Grathia" (they take the "s" off too - heck this is difficult to write down!!

The bottom line is dont worry about it if you're heading this way. The main problem is that they speak so damn fast and with all the bits they miss out, you do have to concentrate or ask them to slow down LOL!!!!!

......... oh I forgot to mention how the younger generation speak - just like the UK they've kinda changed words a bit, but dont worry about it. My daughter can do it, altho I dont think she really understands 

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I live in a village in Cadiz province, which has one of the heaviest accents even by Andalucian standards. There is hardly a consonant to be heard - Cadiz becomes _Ca'i_, hasta luego becomes _'ta lueo_.

It isn't just the accent, they have their own words for things. Even people in adjacent villages can't always understand each other.

But honestly, don't worry about it! Many people are "bilingual" and can turn the accent off when talking to foreigners - in fact we have quite a laugh about it, when they switch from one to the other to wind us up. It does click into place eventually, especially if you watch Canal Sur TV and listen to local radio.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

PS I should add they have absolutely no problem understanding us!


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## davidbroughton (Feb 26, 2011)

jojo said:


> The bottom line is dont worry about it if you're heading this way.


Thank you both for your input. While the language isn't high on my list of priorities, it is definitely something that I feel I should consider to maximise my chances of integrating making a success of a move to Spain.

Thanks for the tip Alcalaina about watching Canal Sur. I'll have to see if there is a way for me to watch online to see if I can understand the Andaluz accent.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

davidbroughton said:


> Thank you both for your input. While the language isn't high on my list of priorities, it is definitely something that I feel I should consider to maximise my chances of integrating making a success of a move to Spain.
> 
> Thanks for the tip Alcalaina about watching Canal Sur. I'll have to see if there is a way for me to watch online to see if I can understand the Andaluz accent.



I live & work in the Valencian region

while the local language is indeed Valenciano, and a lot of the locals will speak to each other using it, they still speak Castellano to us foreigners, and in my town I think they speak pretty clearly, although when your ear is tuned in you can detect a Valenciano influence................

my kids are in school here & study in both, & I can read it pretty well, and understand quite a bit when it is spoken

however, I have never said anything much beyond Bon Dia, and occasionally in MasyMas if they recognise me as a regular & tell me the price in Valenciano I might count the money out in Valenciano, which upsets my dd as she says my pronunciation is rubbish!! (it's good in Spanish though)

I really don't think not speaking Valenciano has hindered me at all - in fact the local Spanish are usually impressed that I can speak Spanish!!


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## owdoggy (Jul 23, 2008)

Here in Almeria just miss off all of the word endings......and some of the middle bits too and you'll have nae bother



Doggy


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## DunWorkin (Sep 2, 2010)

The only time we feel we need to understand Valenciano is when reading some notices or signs.

I think while you are still learning Spanish you would be best not try and learn the local languages as you may not realise you are speaking it when you go somewhere else in Spain.

I am sure at my age I will never be at a stage to learn Valenciano as I am finding learning Spanish bad enough. I am ok until I have something like a hospital appointment. I do not understand everything that is being said there. I always take a Spanish speaking person with me.


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## dinnow (Feb 14, 2011)

Valenciano is not a language. Nor is Andaluz. Castellano is the official language of Spain and is spoken and understood nationwide. You will always be understood if you learn Castellano.
There are three other languages in Spain. Gallego is spoken in Galicia; and Euskerra is spoken in Pais Vasco (and in Pays Bas in France spanning the Pyrenees). And Catalan is the language of Catalunya which includes the region of Valenciana and the Balearics. Valenciana is a dialect of Catalan. Andaluz is a dialect of Castellano. They speak Castellano in the Canaries. It is also the Spanish spoken in South American Spanish speaking countries.
People in Madrid and central Spain look down their noses at people with Andaluz or Murciano accents in much the same way as Southerners regard a scouser or geordie; and have the same difficulty understanding them. 
Andalucia historically is peasant country and worrying about language purity has never been high on many folks' agendas. So inland, rural Andaluz is about as difficult as it gets for Spanish to understand, let alone foreigners.
My advice is that you should definitely concentrate on learning Castellano. Learning one of the minority languages first is about as much use as a Spaniard moving to Swansea and deciding to learn Welsh rather than English.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

davidbroughton said:


> Thank you both for your input. While the language isn't high on my list of priorities, it is definitely something that I feel I should consider to maximise my chances of integrating making a success of a move to Spain.
> 
> Thanks for the tip Alcalaina about watching Canal Sur. I'll have to see if there is a way for me to watch online to see if I can understand the Andaluz accent.


Yes, it is broadcast online:
Emisión de Andalucía Televisión en directo

Learning the language was a big priority for us, as we live in a rural town well away from the ex-pat regions. We spoke GCSE Spanish when we arrived in 2008, and the accent was a real shock at first - it took about a year to get used to it. It is definitely worth the effort, as we are able to take part in many community activities. I still can´t understand overheard conversations between locals, but when people speak to me directly it´s usually fine.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

dinnow said:


> Valenciano is not a language. ......................... Valenciana is a dialect of Catalan. .........................


just don't tell the Valencians

there are subtle differences, not so much though that they don't use catalán language novels as set books in school


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## djfwells (Sep 28, 2009)

I live in a small village in Inland Valencia, and although I can't speak Valenciano I can understand it when it is spoken to me, which puts me on a parr with the Village idiot in having a lot of one-sided conversations with the locals.
As far as I can see, certainly in this area, the locals have a preference for speaking Valeniano amongst themselves (it is taught ahead of Castellano at school), but Castellano is still perfectly understood by almost everybody.
I wouldn't worry about it too much - as long as you can speak and understand some Castellano, you will be able to work out what is the regional language and what isn't. All but the rudest of locals will make allowances fro the fact that most foreigners struggle here.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

dinnow said:


> They speak Castellano in the Canaries. It is also the Spanish spoken in South American Spanish speaking countries.
> .



Yes castellano is spoken here in the Canary Islands, however they have their own words for many things, Gua-gua is a bus, Papas are potatoes, etc.etc.

Hepa


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Hepa said:


> Yes castellano is spoken here in the Canary Islands, however they have their own words for many things, Gua-gua is a bus, Papas are potatoes, etc.etc.
> 
> Hepa


Potatoes are papas (f) here too. Not to be confused with the Pope .. El Papa.

We put the diminutive "ito" on the end of absolutely everything (contrary to what you are taught it has nothing to do with size). _Ponme un kilito de papitas granditas_ ... Give me two kilos of large potatoes.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Potatoes are papas (f) here too. Not to be confused with the Pope .. El Papa.
> 
> We put the diminutive "ito" on the end of absolutely everything (contrary to what you are taught it has nothing to do with size). _Ponme un kilito de papitas granditas_ ... Give me two kilos of large potatoes.


yes, we call potatoes _papas_ too

& yes _ito/a_ is used a lot too with no regard to size


I do get irritated when I have been teaching how to use diminutives & then one of my students actually watches spanish tele  & says that chef Karlos whatsit called a massive tomato a _tomatito_, and what looks like half a litre of wine _un poquito_, and a massive glass of oil _un vasito_, so therefore I must be mistaken


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> yes, we call potatoes _papas_ too
> 
> & yes _ito/a_ is used a lot too with no regard to size
> 
> ...


Hahaha!

In Navarra area it's _*iko*_, so it's _*le traigo un vasiko de aguiko*_ (I'll bring you a glass of water)

PS You might want to inroduce your students to the idea that 1. Karlos Arguiñano is a bit of a joker and 2. He's Basque so the idea of _This tomato might be big for you, but it's nothing for a Basque_


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hahaha!
> 
> In Navarra area it's _*iko*_, so it's _*le traigo un vasiko de aguiko*_ (I'll bring you a glass of water)
> 
> PS You might want to inroduce your students to the idea that 1. Karlos Arguiñano is a bit of a joker and 2. He's Basque so the idea of _This tomato might be big for you, but it's nothing for a Basque_


I believe in Jaen or somewhere it's "-ico," as in villancico?

Karlos also misses out the d in participles - _cortado_ becomes _corta'o_ - the same as Andalucians do. Is this general all over Spain?

Poor OP must be totally confused by now!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hahaha!
> 
> In Navarra area it's _*iko*_, so it's _*le traigo un vasiko de aguiko*_ (I'll bring you a glass of water)
> 
> PS You might want to inroduce your students to the idea that 1. Karlos Arguiñano is a bit of a joker and 2. He's Basque so the idea of _This tomato might be big for you, but it's nothing for a Basque_


& isn't _illo_ somewhere??


as in _un vasillo_ de vino?

are the Basques related to the Texans, then


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

And then there's the double diminutive - _chiquitita_ ...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

alcalaina said:


> and then there's the double diminutive - _chiquitita_ ...


abba!!!!!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> I believe in Jaen or somewhere it's "-ico," as in villancico?
> 
> Karlos also misses out the d in participles - _cortado_ becomes _corta'o_ - the same as Andalucians do. Is this general all over Spain?
> 
> Poor OP must be totally confused by now!


I think it's a Basquey thing. In Bilbao they say rosoa instead of rosado.

A famous drink story in our house...
Years ago OH went to pick me up at Sondika airport (the nearest to Bilbao) What are you going to do? Go to the nearest bar of course. He went to the toilet and asked me to order him a gin tonic. So I did. Only problem is when he got back there was a glass of red wine waiting for him!! 
To this day neither of us can work out how come my accent was soooo bad that the waiter understood vino tinto instead of gin tonic.  Oh well...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> & isn't _illo_ somewhere??
> 
> 
> as in _un vasillo_ de vino?
> ...


Yes, I think it is, but I don't remember where...

Basques and Texans, same kind of idea I think, but the Basques are perhaps more "raw"???
They go in for stone lifting for example


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> I believe in Jaen or somewhere it's "-ico," as in villancico?
> 
> Karlos also misses out the d in participles - _cortado_ becomes _corta'o_ - the same as Andalucians do. Is this general all over Spain?
> 
> Poor OP must be totally confused by now!


actually I think it could be general, and just lazy pronunciation

like when my kids say 'twenny' for twenty - much to my annoyance - if they can say veinTe, why not twenTy?

I hear _¿qué ha pasao?_ & _ta logo_ all the time here, too

I'm coaching some Spanish educated (but failing dismally) English teenagers for Spanish GCSE - they speak almost like natives, yet their written is so poor that they are doing Spanish as a second language, rather than first

they have learned their spanish in the playground, & write as they speak, so write 'a echo' instead of ha hecho, pasao, pagao, estudiao, comio (instead of comido)


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## dinnow (Feb 14, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> actually I think it could be general, and just lazy pronunciation
> 
> like when my kids say 'twenny' for twenty - much to my annoyance - if they can say veinTe, why not twenTy?
> 
> ...


Language is a living thing and changes to become more efficient. Why say "twenty" when it is quicker and equally as well understood to say "twenny"? And young people are the main engine for change. English, Spanish - whatever the language. 50 years ago, Valencia was Valencia. If you're Spanish and under 30 it is now Balencia. Cortado is cortao all over Spain - if you are under 30. For me there is no such thing as lazy pronunciation. Just effective and ineffective communication. Nothing wrong with it in my opinion. Makes language exciting.
On the diminutive thing, I think this is something that has got lost in the translation. "ito" is a diminutive suffix; diminutive means small; therefore ito means small. Therefore the fire engine is a post box. I learned that it is diminutive as Johnny is to John, Fred or Freddy is to Frederick. So nothing to do with size - just more familiar. Juan > Juanito; Maria Teresa> Mate; chica> chiquita (girl>girly - not girl> small girl!)


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

dinnow said:


> Language is a living thing and changes to become more efficient. Why say "twenty" when it is quicker and equally as well understood to say "twenny"? And young people are the main engine for change. English, Spanish - whatever the language. 50 years ago, Valencia was Valencia. If you're Spanish and under 30 it is now Balencia. Cortado is cortao all over Spain - if you are under 30. For me there is no such thing as lazy pronunciation. Just effective and ineffective communication. Nothing wrong with it in my opinion. Makes language exciting.
> On the diminutive thing, I think this is something that has got lost in the translation. "ito" is a diminutive suffix; diminutive means small; therefore ito means small. Therefore the fire engine is a post box. I learned that it is diminutive as Johnny is to John, Fred or Freddy is to Frederick. So nothing to do with size - just more familiar. Juan > Juanito; Maria Teresa> Mate; chica> chiquita (girl>girly - not girl> small girl!)


_ito_ doesn't mean small - it, as you say, is supposed to be used as a suffix to indicate that whatever it is attched to is a small version, just as _ón_ indicates something bigger, as with silla & sillón


I have a friend called Pablo - his son is Pablo too, but known as Pablito - little Pablo


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

dinnow said:


> On the diminutive thing, I think this is something that has got lost in the translation. "ito" is a diminutive suffix; diminutive means small; therefore ito means small. Therefore the fire engine is a post box. I learned that it is diminutive as Johnny is to John, Fred or Freddy is to Frederick. So nothing to do with size - just more familiar. Juan > Juanito; Maria Teresa> Mate; chica> chiquita (girl>girly - not girl> small girl!)


It doesn't just mean small. My example, which my local greengrocer said to me - _un kilito de patatitas granditas_ - has nothing to do with size. How can you have a small kilo? or a little big potato? It is used to demonstrate _cariño_, affection, fondness, friendship, good sentiments. The shopkeeper is indicating that he is happy to sell me his lovely potatoes.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> It doesn't just mean small. My example, which my local greengrocer said to me - _un kilito de patatitas granditas_ - has nothing to do with size. How can you have a small kilo? or a little big potato? It is used to demonstrate _cariño_, affection, fondness, friendship, good sentiments. The shopkeeper is indicating that he is happy to sell me his lovely potatoes.


yes, _but it's meant to_!!!

which is why so many get confused!!!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> It doesn't just mean small. My example, which my local greengrocer said to me - _un kilito de patatitas granditas_ - has nothing to do with size. How can you have a small kilo? or a little big potato? It is used to demonstrate _cariño_, affection, fondness, friendship, good sentiments. The shopkeeper is indicating that he is happy to sell me his lovely potatoes.


Exactly!


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## dinnow (Feb 14, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> yes, _but it's meant to_!!!
> 
> which is why so many get confused!!!


what is meant to what?
I'm confused


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

dinnow said:


> what is meant to what?
> I'm confused


Well that makes two of us.
What did you mean when you said


> Therefore the fire engine is a post box.


???


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> yes, _but it's meant to_!!!
> 
> which is why so many get confused!!!



I thought it kinda meant cute 

Jo xxxx


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jojo said:


> I thought it kinda meant cute
> 
> Jo xxxx


I thought kinda was a chocolate egg ... :confused2:


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

dinnow said:


> what is meant to what?
> I'm confused


meant to mean a little one

not a darling one.........................


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, I think it is, but I don't remember where...
> 
> Basques and Texans, same kind of idea I think, but the Basques are perhaps more "raw"???
> They go in for stone lifting for example


ah well

that explains everything..................


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> I thought kinda was a chocolate egg ... :confused2:


mmmm

nearly Easter


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## dinnow (Feb 14, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well that makes two of us.
> What did you mean when you said ???


"Therefore the fire engine is a post box" is a common quote to show bad logic - the fire engine is red; the post box is red; therefore the fire engine is a post box. I was suggesting that the same sort of logical error may explain why some believe that ito means physically small (ito is a diminutive; diminutive means small; so ito must mean small) 



xabiachica said:


> meant to mean a little one
> 
> not a darling one.........................


But who says it's meant to mean a little one? As I've said, I think that that is a common misunderstanding. I think Pablo/Pablito is Paul/Paulie not Paul/short Paul. The diminutive name form is widely applied to adults.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

dinnow said:


> "Therefore the fire engine is a post box" is a common quote to show bad logic - the fire engine is red; the post box is red; therefore the fire engine is a post box. I was suggesting that the same sort of logical error may explain why some believe that ito means physically small (ito is a diminutive; diminutive means small; so ito must mean small)
> 
> But who says it's meant to mean a little one? As I've said, I think that that is a common misunderstanding. I think Pablo/Pablito is Paul/Paulie not Paul/short Paul. The diminutive name form is widely applied to adults.


I think it's all these things and probably more. What bugs me is that when you are taught Spanish formally you are only told about one of them - the size-related one. So during my first few weeks here I thought a _tomatito_ was a cherry tomato.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> I think it's all these things and probably more. What bugs me is that when you are taught Spanish formally you are only told about one of them - the size-related one. So during my first few weeks here I thought a _tomatito_ was a cherry tomato.


& when you query it they reply " but everybody ( who's born spanish ! ) knows that !" 
I must admit though that when I was learning my teacher went to great lengths to explain that this is what is correct but this is what you will hear . I still struggle with replies, or when two or more speak at once.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> & when you query it they reply " but everybody ( who's born spanish ! ) knows that !"
> I must admit though that when I was learning my teacher went to great lengths to explain that this is what is correct but this is what you will hear . I still struggle with replies, or when two or more speak at once.


which is what I mean

yes, it is used in other ways

but it's _meant_ to mean a smaller version, or less important

so when you are teaching beginners, you are teaching what it is meant to mean - then the subtleties come later - maybe in the next lesson, but they have to get used to the basic usage first


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hahaha!
> 
> In Navarra area it's _*iko*_, so it's _*le traigo un vasiko de aguiko*_ (I'll bring you a glass of water)


And then there's always the -uco from Cantabria.
"un besuco" just sounds so... not diminutive!


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> I'm coaching some Spanish educated (but failing dismally) English teenagers for Spanish GCSE - they speak almost like natives, yet their written is so poor that they are doing Spanish as a second language, rather than first
> 
> they have learned their spanish in the playground, & write as they speak, so write 'a echo' instead of ha hecho, pasao, pagao, estudiao, comio (instead of comido)


I think you'd be surprised to see these same errors from natives, especially b/v and putting "h"es where they shouldn't be/leaving them out where they should.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> ah well
> 
> that explains everything..................


I've got a good, but kind of dirty, joke about everything being bigger in Bilbao. Not sure if it's forum-acceptable. 

And NO, it's NOT like Texas!


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## dinnow (Feb 14, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> but it's _meant_ to mean a smaller version, or less important


But who says? That's the whole issue here. I, for one, don't think so.
You obviously teach Spanish to English students which means you have to explain the meaning. But Spanish kids and English kids who learn at Spanish schools both in classroom and playground don't have it explained. They learn when to use it by copying the Spanish kids. Same with the subjunctive. My kids use the subjunctive in precisely the right situations and get the tense and person and number right every time. But they don't know that they do. Again they have used it by copying phrases and expressions in context from Spanish kids. How many mature students use the subjunctive correctly? Not huge numbers.
Some things don't translate well. Some things are a matter of feel. But I reckon you will get laughed at less often if you think you're asking the greengrocer for a lovely kilo of his darling cucumbers than if you think you are asking for a small kilo of his short pepinos (be a bit careful with that example )


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

dinnow said:


> But who says? That's the whole issue here. I, for one, don't think so.
> You obviously teach Spanish to English students which means you have to explain the meaning. But Spanish kids and English kids who learn at Spanish schools both in classroom and playground don't have it explained. They learn when to use it by copying the Spanish kids. Same with the subjunctive. My kids use the subjunctive in precisely the right situations and get the tense and person and number right every time. But they don't know that they do. Again they have used it by copying phrases and expressions in context from Spanish kids. How many mature students use the subjunctive correctly? Not huge numbers.
> Some things don't translate well. Some things are a matter of feel. But I reckon you will get laughed at less often if you think you're asking the greengrocer for a lovely kilo of his darling cucumbers than if you think you are asking for a small kilo of his short pepinos (be a bit careful with that example )



This is becoming one of the most boring issues I think I've ever read on here - WHO CARES???? The OP wants to know about whether local/regional languages are much different to taught Spanish :focus:

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

halydia said:


> I think you'd be surprised to see these same errors from natives, especially b/v and putting "h"es where they shouldn't be/leaving them out where they should.


I wouldn't be in the least but surprised tbh, sadly

I used be a host 'mum' for one of those 'English summer camps' for spanish kids, and saw some of the things they wrote!!

I also have a couple of kids who were at an international school & I'm helping them with their Spanish GCSE - they don't make the written mistakes at all...........


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

dinnow said:


> But who says?


http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=diminutivo


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

jojo said:


> This is becoming one of the most boring issues I think I've ever read on here - WHO CARES???? The OP wants to know about whether local/regional languages are much different to taught Spanish :focus:
> 
> Jo xxx


Then the answer is yes.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jojo said:


> This is becoming one of the most boring issues I think I've ever read on here - WHO CARES???? The OP wants to know about whether local/regional languages are much different to taught Spanish :focus:
> 
> Jo xxx


I care, for one. It's nice to have the opportunity to discuss these subtle differences in meaning across the various parts of Spain, and how what is taught differs from what happens in real life. This is exactly what the OP was interested in. If it bores you, don't follow it!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> I care, for one. It's nice to have the opportunity to discuss these subtle differences in meaning across the various parts of Spain, and how what is taught differs from what happens in real life. This is exactly what the OP was interested in. If it bores you, don't follow it!



That told me then !!! IMO "ito" is a bit too sutble to be worthy of all these posts. I posted earlier that my neighbour who is Spanish says it just means that something is "cutesy" !!!

Jo xxx


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## dinnow (Feb 14, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> Real Academia Española


Xabi (diminutive of Xavier)

The link says "La palabra diminutivos no está en el Diccionario." - so doesn't take us any further forward.
But the Spanish Language Academy, like its French counterpart, is just a bunch of boring old farts who think they own the language, pontificating about what is right and wrong in the Spanish language and which words are acceptable and which are not acceptable. Thomas Webster - the originator of Websters Dictionary - was a famous proponent of an (American) English Language Academy, with him in charge of course. The President of the day told him to go amuse himself on the quite proper grounds that the people who use the language are the people who own it. If it is in common use, it is part of the language - Simples. (Simples being an example of a new word that has a widely if not universally understood meaning but which you will find in no dictionary). 
So even if the Spanish Academy supported your position, it wouldn't mean anything - to me.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> This is becoming one of the most boring issues I think I've ever read on here - WHO CARES???? The OP wants to know about whether local/regional languages are much different to taught Spanish :focus:
> 
> Jo xxx


I think you must have forgotten about the cars threads Jojo. 
Nothing more boring than those car threads IMO


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Sorry to be late in getting on to this thread but I have been busy with other things as readers of our bulletin will know.

I live in a village in Andalucía (Andalusía - you will see both) and any Spanish I learnt was in Colombia which is a purer Spanish than that spoken in Spain because it has not taken on the modern laziness and distortion. However, I have been here for a bit over a couple of years and have had no trouble with Andalú(z) the local dialect ever since I have been here.

Try this website: Andalusian Spanish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for a quite good description of the local lingo.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> I care, for one. It's nice to have the opportunity to discuss these subtle differences in meaning across the various parts of Spain, and how what is taught differs from what happens in real life. This is exactly what the OP was interested in. If it bores you, don't follow it!


Agreed wholeheartedly. Language fascinates me. I think it's really fun how language can and does change in the various autonomous regions, and above all, WHY.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

halydia said:


> Agreed wholeheartedly. Language fascinates me. I think it's really fun how language can and does change in the various autonomous regions, and above all, WHY.


Consider how languages vary even in the UK. Where I was born used to be very marshy and, often, the only way to communicate with one's neighbour was to climb up on something and shout (the slang name for the area is "Blareham" because people used to blare at each other). It takes little imagination to realise that the softer sounds just do not carry so words like "something" become "su'm'n" or even "su'n" and "water" becomes "wor" with the consequence that, eventually, that is the way people began to speak even when not shouting across the marshes.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

dinnow said:


> Xabi (diminutive of Xavier)
> 
> The link says "La palabra diminutivos no está en el Diccionario." - so doesn't take us any further forward.
> But the Spanish Language Academy, like its French counterpart, is just a bunch of boring old farts who think they own the language, pontificating about what is right and wrong in the Spanish language and which words are acceptable and which are not acceptable. Thomas Webster - the originator of Websters Dictionary - was a famous proponent of an (American) English Language Academy, with him in charge of course. The President of the day told him to go amuse himself on the quite proper grounds that the people who use the language are the people who own it. If it is in common use, it is part of the language - Simples. (Simples being an example of a new word that has a widely if not universally understood meaning but which you will find in no dictionary).
> So even if the Spanish Academy supported your position, it wouldn't mean anything - to me.


oops- wrong link

Diccionario de la lengua española - Vigésima segunda edición

I'm not saying it's never used in other ways - I'm just saying that ..............



ah never mind!!


you know exactly what I'm saying


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> Sorry to be late in getting on to this thread but I have been busy with other things as readers of our bulletin will know.
> 
> I live in a village in Andalucía (Andalusía - you will see both) and any Spanish I learnt was in Colombia which is a purer Spanish than that spoken in Spain because it has not taken on the modern laziness and distortion. However, I have been here for a bit over a couple of years and have had no trouble with Andalú(z) the local dialect ever since I have been here.
> 
> Try this website: Andalusian Spanish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for a quite good description of the local lingo.


I must admit I find it a pleasure to speak to someone from South America . It's far easier for me to understand as they tend to speak slower & with more pronunciacion. 
We have a bread delivery man ( leave bag on gate with money in ) who occasionally I bump in to & who is 99% unintelligible. After 9 years I can just about interpret what he's saying , even the neighbours find him barely intelligible.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> Sorry to be late in getting on to this thread but I have been busy with other things as readers of our bulletin will know.
> 
> I live in a village in Andalucía (Andalusía - you will see both) and any Spanish I learnt was in Colombia which is a purer Spanish than that spoken in Spain because it has not taken on the modern laziness and distortion. However, I have been here for a bit over a couple of years and have had no trouble with Andalú(z) the local dialect ever since I have been here.
> 
> Try this website: Andalusian Spanish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for a quite good description of the local lingo.


Hope everything's OK Baldilocks...

Have to say I don't agree with you however on the Spanish here being distorted because of laziness. It's just evolved, developed and adapted. If you use a word like "laziness" you're making a judgement, and a negative one at that. There's much more behind the way a person speaks than laziness. It's how that person sees themself, how they want to project themselves, which group they want to belong to etc...


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hope everything's OK Baldilocks...
> 
> Have to say I don't agree with you however on the Spanish here being distorted because of laziness. It's just evolved, developed and adapted. If you use a word like "laziness" you're making a judgement, and a negative one at that. There's much more behind the way a person speaks than laziness. It's how that person sees themself, how they want to project themselves, which group they want to belong to etc...


Like Tony Blair learning to speak "estuary English" so he could sound more in tune with the working class ... 

Is there a Spanish equivalent to that, I wonder?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Upspeak - the voice going up at the end of the sentence, making it sound like a question? There was an epidemic of it in the UK when all the kids were watching the Australian soaps like Neighbours?

Well, I´ve noticed it creeping into Spanish! There are a couple of TV adverts where it is very prominent. Has it been there all the time and I haven´t noticed it before? Any ideas?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

dinnow said:


> Language is a living thing and changes to become more efficient. Why say "twenty" when it is quicker and equally as well understood to say "twenny"? And young people are the main engine for change. English, Spanish - whatever the language. 50 years ago, Valencia was Valencia. If you're Spanish and under 30 it is now Balencia. Cortado is cortao all over Spain - if you are under 30. For me there is no such thing as lazy pronunciation. Just effective and ineffective communication. Nothing wrong with it in my opinion. Makes language exciting.
> On the diminutive thing, I think this is something that has got lost in the translation. "ito" is a diminutive suffix; diminutive means small; therefore ito means small. Therefore the fire engine is a post box. I learned that it is diminutive as Johnny is to John, Fred or Freddy is to Frederick. So nothing to do with size - just more familiar. Juan > Juanito; Maria Teresa> Mate; chica> chiquita (girl>girly - not girl> small girl!)


Hi dinnow,
I agree with a lot that you've said in this post and others on this thread, but also disagree with some points.
"ito" *can* and *does* denote size, no two ways about it. No matter what you may think of the RAE it exists and is adhered to. More importantly, as you yourself point out, people use "ito" to talk about small things. 
Tengo que comprar un librito que quepa en el bolso. 
¿Cómo se llama esta flor pequeñita?

There are also other uses that people have pointed out like speaking with affection etc.

I do agree with you that language changes and there's, IMO, nothing wrong with those changes and new incorporations into the language, as long as people are able to communicate. However, it looks like from what people are saying about Andalucia that they might be left on an island somewhere where they can communicate amongst themselves. In parts of Galicia near the border I find it very difficult to understand the locals as well, and so did my Basque husband.

Oh and the B and V thing in my experience has nothing to do with age, that's Spanish whether you're 20 or 80.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Upspeak - the voice going up at the end of the sentence, making it sound like a question? There was an epidemic of it in the UK when all the kids were watching the Australian soaps like Neighbours?
> 
> Well, I´ve noticed it creeping into Spanish! There are a couple of TV adverts where it is very prominent. Has it been there all the time and I haven´t noticed it before? Any ideas?


Don't understand what you mean Alcalaina. That's the way you make questions in Spanish.
Pepe va a venir. ¿Pepe va a venir?
Viene Pepe. ¿Viene Pepe?

Apologies to the OP
Jojo's to scared to come in and tell us to get back to topic after yesterday!!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Don't understand what you mean Alcalaina. That's the way you make questions in Spanish.
> Pepe va a venir. ¿Pepe va a venir?
> Viene Pepe. ¿Viene Pepe?
> 
> ...


that's actually how I teach my students...............think of Neighbours!!!

it is possibly the hardest thing for them to learn from an oral point of view - they suddenly get really shy


actually I think we're still on topic- sorry jojo


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hope everything's OK Baldilocks...
> 
> Have to say I don't agree with you however on the Spanish here being distorted because of laziness. It's just evolved, developed and adapted. If you use a word like "laziness" you're making a judgement, and a negative one at that. There's much more behind the way a person speaks than laziness. It's how that person sees themself, how they want to project themselves, which group they want to belong to etc...


OK I take your point especially since the village from which I originate was affectionately known as "Blareham" because the area was very marshy and often to communicate with a neighbour one had to climb to a high point (roof/tree/ whatever) and shout (blare) to him/her. Because some sounds did not travel well, words like "something" would become "su'm'n" or even "su'n" which gave rise to a local dialect known as "Blareham"

However many of the dialectical differences do occur because of people being "simple countryfolk" (I don't mean that unkindly) and not having received much of an education and thus do not know any better. One must bear in mind that much education *was* in the hands of the church and in many cases, the church has only held onto its power because of the ignorance of the people and their inability to know any better and because they has no other role models. It is only in recent years that greater emancipation of the people has occurred.

However "laziness" is very much a case amongst countryfolk. If the people with whom you *normally* communicate fully understand you when you say "Myma" instead of "Mas y Mas" there is really no need to change with the result that if I say the name correctly to most of my neighbours, they have to think before the penny drops.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Don't understand what you mean Alcalaina. That's the way you make questions in Spanish.
> Pepe va a venir. ¿Pepe va a venir?
> Viene Pepe. ¿Viene Pepe?
> 
> ...


I think Alcalainita means doing it when it's not a question:

I'm on my laptop? I'm going to the pub?


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> Upspeak - the voice going up at the end of the sentence, making it sound like a question? There was an epidemic of it in the UK when all the kids were watching the Australian soaps like Neighbours?
> 
> Well, I´ve noticed it creeping into Spanish! There are a couple of TV adverts where it is very prominent. Has it been there all the time and I haven´t noticed it before? Any ideas?


Come to Santander, where the people sing, not speak!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jimenato said:


> I think Alcalainita means doing it when it's not a question:
> 
> I'm on my laptop? I'm going to the pub?


Ahhh yes, see what you mean Jimenatiko


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## davidbroughton (Feb 26, 2011)

jimenato said:


> I think Alcalainita means doing it when it's not a question:
> 
> I'm on my laptop? I'm going to the pub?


Reminds me of this Family Guy episode:
Family Guy

Now to catch up with the 7 pages of posts that have appeared since yesterday!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

davidbroughton said:


> Reminds me of this Family Guy episode:
> Family Guy
> 
> Now to catch up with the 7 pages of posts that have appeared since yesterday!


Yes, sorry about that, but it seems you opened up a whole can of worms...

Hope there's something of use to you here.


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hi dinnow,
> I agree with a lot that you've said in this post and others on this thread, but also disagree with some points.
> "ito" *can* and *does* denote size, no two ways about it. No matter what you may think of the RAE it exists and is adhered to. More importantly, as you yourself point out, people use "ito" to talk about small things.
> Tengo que comprar un librito que quepa en el bolso.
> ...


What did you find difficult to understand, PW? Was it the accent when they were speaking Castellano or were they speaking Gallego (which isn't a difference in the language, it is a different language)? The accent on speaking Castellano yes, you can notice a regional difference, but they don't "eat" the consonants as other accents can and so is pretty easy to follow. The language, well, that's a whole other thing!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

I usually find that understanding verbal v. written is the biggest problem. I can usually comprehend the written be it Castellano, Gallego, Catalan, etc. but when you link my 30% deafness to dropped consonants, accents, telephone conversation (can't see the facial expression!) and local dialects, e.g. Mas y Mas becomes "myma" and Lidl becomes "Li", life is sometimes a struggle. 

Maybe that is why I married a professional translator/interpretor who was working as a TV newsreader, specialising in International news at the time.


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## davidbroughton (Feb 26, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, it is broadcast online:
> Emisión de Andalucía Televisión en directo


Thanks. I have just watched Canal Sur. The Andalucians don't half speak quickly! I struggled to hear where each word started and ended as they all seemed to run together. Very different to classroom Spanish. The word middles don't seem to be pronounced, and the word endings are dropped. I thought the _thirst thpeaker I lithened to had a lithp_, but it seems this is just a feature of the accent. All in all, I found it very difficult to follow :confused2:

For comparison, I also watched Canal 24, which I found much clearer. Words seemed to be much more separated, with all of the sounds pronounced.

Are there any Spanish speaking TV channels that are broadcast from the Costa Blanca region? I'd be interested to see how much I can understand.

Thanks.


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## davidbroughton (Feb 26, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, sorry about that, but it seems you opened up a whole can of worms...
> 
> Hope there's something of use to you here.


No need to apologise. I am grateful to everyone who has commented. I find languages fascinating, and am interesting to learn of the subtleties (albeit not so subtle!) between the different regions.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jimenato said:


> I think Alcalainita means doing it when it's not a question:
> 
> I'm on my laptop? I'm going to the pub?


Exactly. There is one advert where it's particularly noticeable, I can't remember which one (shows how ineffective the advert is) but it's definitely there?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Exactly. There is one advert where it's particularly noticeable, I can't remember which one (shows how ineffective the advert is) but it's definitely there?


lol!!!

it's catching!

you made a statement with a question?









yes, I know I did too...........


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Semantics
pedantics
can give rise
to tears 
in one's eyes
and get on one's xxxx
that rhyme with one's bits!

I know, my suegra is one!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Exactly. There is one advert where it's particularly noticeable, I can't remember which one (shows how ineffective the advert is) but it's definitely there?


Tell me when you see it again???

I love it, it's so easy to do. I've missed out on doing this in the UK, so I shall do it here!!


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## dinnow (Feb 14, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> OK I take your point especially since the village from which I originate was affectionately known as "Blareham" because the area was very marshy and often to communicate with a neighbour one had to climb to a high point (roof/tree/ whatever) and shout (blare) to him/her. Because some sounds did not travel well, words like "something" would become "su'm'n" or even "su'n" which gave rise to a local dialect known as "Blareham"
> 
> However many of the dialectical differences do occur because of people being "simple countryfolk" (I don't mean that unkindly) and not having received much of an education and thus do not know any better. One must bear in mind that much education *was* in the hands of the church and in many cases, the church has only held onto its power because of the ignorance of the people and their inability to know any better and because they has no other role models. It is only in recent years that greater emancipation of the people has occurred.
> 
> However "laziness" is very much a case amongst countryfolk. If the people with whom you *normally* communicate fully understand you when you say "Myma" instead of "Mas y Mas" there is really no need to change with the result that if I say the name correctly to most of my neighbours, they have to think before the penny drops.


I still think that you miss the point with your insistence on using the word laziness - with or without quotation marks. I agree that Andalucia is historically peasant country. Low levels of education. So their language evolves to fit their capabilities. All the users of that language understand each other perfectly. So it is an efficient form of communication.
There have always been huge differences in language among different social strata. Gato comes from the Latin gatus for cat. But gatus was the word that the plebians used. The aristocracy used felix. Between 1066 and 1215 in England, the court and aristocracy spoke entirely in French. The peasants wouldn't have had a clue what they were saying.
Language exists to allow ideas to be communicated between human brains. What you see as laziness I see as efficiency. The question should be - is it effective communication? We must be careful not to fall into the trap of language snobbery based on our own conditioning.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Tallulah said:


> What did you find difficult to understand, PW? Was it the accent when they were speaking Castellano or were they speaking Gallego (which isn't a difference in the language, it is a different language)? The accent on speaking Castellano yes, you can notice a regional difference, but they don't "eat" the consonants as other accents can and so is pretty easy to follow. The language, well, that's a whole other thing!


Thinking about it, they were probably speaking Gallego, but I'm not sure as at the time, I couldn't make out if they were speaking Portuguese or Spanish. However, it was more than 16 years ago, I was pregnant, but didn't know and felt like s***, and it was in a bar heaving with people. Probably turns out that they were tourists from Fiji!!


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## dinnow (Feb 14, 2011)

deleted


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## dinnow (Feb 14, 2011)

dinnow said:


> At the risk of going off topic (!), why the asterisks? I accept forum rules etc etc but it's a language issue again. We all know what word you are using. And it is your intention that we know.
> Back to conditioning. Who says that a particular palabra is fea? We all do it. Our kids all do it from a young age (forbidden fruits) so what is so mysterious about these words? Or so threatening?
> See Stephen Fry on this topic at youtube-stephen fry on swearing


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

dinnow said:


> dinnow said:
> 
> 
> > At the risk of going off topic (!), why the asterisks? I accept forum rules etc etc but it's a language issue again. We all know what word you are using. And it is your intention that we know.
> ...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> The forum software automatically replaces certain words with asterisks. Including, bizarrely, the name of a well-known sports brand with a swoosh logo.


****


lol!!!

so it does - I never realised that one!!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

*Uppeak (aka High Rising Terminals)*



Pesky Wesky said:


> Tell me when you see it again???
> 
> I love it, it's so easy to do. I've missed out on doing this in the UK, so I shall do it here!!


Check out the girl doing the Bosch oven advert on Karlos´s show - she does it quite often.

Mmmm, he´s doing _habitas con jamón _- my favourite!


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