# Never Trust Electrical Tape



## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

This morning I happened to be sitting on the throne doing my business when suddenly my sister-in-law started running around the compound shouting that her house was on fire.

To make a long story short I went outside and found that a light fixture on her porch was indeed smoldering, and that the plastic body of the light fixture was beginning to catch on fire. I went inside her house and shut off her main breaker, (didn't trip on its own) and went back outside to find that the light fixture had melted off the side of her house, and was now dangling from the melted wires, but the smoke and fire had stopped.

After looking at everything, it seems to me that the mounting screw for the light fixture must have somehow disturbed or penetrated the plastic electrical tape, and as the years passed, the tape then became lose enough for a short between the tire wires, or maybe a short between the hot wire and the metal box which is encased in concrete.

One of the helpers went inside her attic and he said that the insulation is melted off the wiring all the way back to a plastic junction box. So, if no one had been home, then there is a good chance that house could have gone up in complete flames.


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

I've said it before, if you want to find the breaker in a Philippine house or building just follow the soot stain on the ceiling.


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## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

The problem over here is that the circuit breakers are a complete joke, and most of them won't kick off even if a complete dead short occurs.


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

We were putting up a water tower which involved a lot of welding. The main line to the lot kept coming apart. I counted 4 twisted joints in about 10 mtres of overhead cable. the joint would get hot and the tape melt, and this was with not much more than a hobby welder.


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## greenstreak1946 (May 28, 2017)

Electrical is a joke in the Philippines. While living in Tagum City I had a instant water heater installed in shower. The guy ran the wire up in attic and spliced to the main cable coming into the house. I told him that was wrong. He should have ran it to breaker box and hooked to the empty breaker. He said oh no I never do that. So when I took shower and turned up the knob for hotter water it would blow the main breaker to the house. I had to wait for the cable to cool down before I could turn main breaker back on. I am a building contractor and I knew what he did was wrong and I just let it go. Stupid of me letting him get by with such work.

art


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## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

greenstreak1946 said:


> Electrical is a joke in the Philippines. While living in Tagum City I had a instant water heater installed in shower. The guy ran the wire up in attic and spliced to the main cable coming into the house. I told him that was wrong. He should have ran it to breaker box and hooked to the empty breaker. He said oh no I never do that. So when I took shower and turned up the knob for hotter water it would blow the main breaker to the house. I had to wait for the cable to cool down before I could turn main breaker back on. I am a building contractor and I knew what he did was wrong and I just let it go. Stupid of me letting him get by with such work.
> 
> art


I've also learned the hard way to be very very careful about hiring people to do electrical work, and or to mix concrete. I wasn't particularly good at either one of these tasks before, but now since I'm living over here I'd rather take everything slow and carefully and do the job on my own. 

Upon closer inspection it appears that the electrician who wired up my in-laws house places the light switches on the neutral side of the circuit, so that there was always hot current at the light fixture even when the switch was turned off. What possible reason would someone have for doing this? I don't know, and it just seems so unnecessarily dangerous, but that is the way all of the light switches seem to be wired over at my in-laws. Strange.


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## Zep (Jun 8, 2017)

Maxx62 said:


> Upon closer inspection it appears that the electrician who wired up my in-laws house places the light switches on the neutral side of the circuit, so that there was always hot current at the light fixture even when the switch was turned off. What possible reason would someone have for doing this? I don't know, and it just seems so unnecessarily dangerous, but that is the way all of the light switches seem to be wired over at my in-laws. Strange.


Its possible he wired them correctly but the main wires to the house were subsequently reversed. Or maybe he did it wrong


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

So I'll be bringing some RCD's or ELCB's (will ask my sparky) when we ship our lot there, also have to find an electrician that is up to speed on earthing and all things safe in PH. ,,,,,,,,, The mind boggles with what I have read here. Good words of warning Maxx.

Cheers, Steve.


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

bigpearl said:


> So I'll be bringing some RCD's or ELCB's (will ask my sparky) when we ship our lot there, also have to find an electrician that is up to speed on earthing and all things safe in PH. ,,,,,,,,, The mind boggles with what I have read here. Good words of warning Maxx.
> 
> Cheers, Steve.


You can bring as many RCB as you like you won't anyone who has a clue what they are. Our house plus the store and two SIl houses are all wired with UK fittings and consumer units. We have a board with half a dozen RCBs but the SILs have a small unit for sheds/garages etc with just a RCB for the sockets and another for the lights. A bulb blow in our house and we had a call to the UK asking me about the problem, they couldn't understand why the all of the light had gone out but the sockets still worked, I guess I was lucky they asked before cross wiring to get the lights working. Once they had reset the RCB all was well.

One of the BILs also wanted one of these small consumer unit fitted so I put one in the box next time we sent a BB. It arrived but no one knew how to connect it up. I mean it had all of four connections. The local electrician didn't know, the engineer from the electricity company didn't know and it sat there for a year until we next went there.

The meter reader also accussed us of stealing electricty when he saw the earth wire and earthing rod outside the house, he thought it was a jumper.:frusty:


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## Hey_Joe (Sep 13, 2016)

bigpearl said:


> So I'll be bringing some RCD's or ELCB's (will ask my sparky) when we ship our lot there, also have to find an electrician that is up to speed on earthing and all things safe in PH. ,,,,,,,,, The mind boggles with what I have read here. Good words of warning Maxx.
> 
> Cheers, Steve.


I bought my grounding rods/clamps at Topwood years ago. They sell proper length, size copper in Earth grounding rods and clamps. Citi Hardware near you may have them.

Thunderbird and many of the Foreign Managed Owned Resorts in our area are properly grounded and use electricians who know how to properly install grounded set ups. I'd refer mine but no way he'll travel to your area for work as he is too busy with all that is going on near where I am. Some items are available at National Bazar or CSI but I typically bought all my GFCI & other grounded outlets at Wilcon in Angeles City. Was a great excuse to do a bar run.


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## Hey_Joe (Sep 13, 2016)

Gary D said:


> The meter reader also accussed us of stealing electricty when he saw the earth wire and earthing rod outside the house, he thought it was a jumper.:frusty:


Decades ago they would pull out the meter and insert it upside down for 10 or so days after the meter was read (it reversed the gears), then re insert correctly until the next reading. They fixed it so that can no longer be done. There is a poor area not far from me, they busted some for somehow putting sugar inside the meter which attracted ants and stopped the gears from spinning but the electric continued.


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

Hey_Joe said:


> I bought my grounding rods/clamps at Topwood years ago. They sell proper length, size copper in Earth grounding rods and clamps. Citi Hardware near you may have them.
> 
> Thunderbird and many of the Foreign Managed Owned Resorts in our area are properly grounded and use electricians who know how to properly install grounded set ups. I'd refer mine but no way he'll travel to your area for work as he is too busy with all that is going on near where I am. Some items are available at National Bazar or CSI but I typically bought all my GFCI & other grounded outlets at Wilcon in Angeles City. Was a great excuse to do a bar run.


Hope you enjoyed the drink, i'm sure you did, poor ******. What I find amusing is that all power outlets (GPO's) that I have seen in Ph. are not switched. As in you cannot turn the outlet off, to isolate you have to unplug.
I am sure you will recommend a good sparky that understands "safe" when we do our reno's and extensions.
Thunderbird is over priced and service is wanting, ( wait for your beer unless you sit at the bar in the western sun unless you are an early starter) perhaps the sparky blew the budget? All in all central Luzon is a great place to put your roots down as long as that earth stake is 3 ft in the ground and you have a sparky that understands that a lighting circuit it not the same as a power circuit and doesn't require a residual current device.

I/we can all go on,,,,,,, as I will. The property we purchased has electricity, great. I asked the previous owner/builder why are there bare wires sticking out from the eves where the power should be connected? 
Simple, with the typhoons the power always went out so we changed the supply to underground, ok so where is your under ground? There, running along the fence and into the house,,,,,,,,, all above ground but at least it's in a conduit.
Do hope we catch up Joe as you seem to have your finger on the pulse.

Cheers, Steve


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

My problem with the fittings in the Philippines is that they are basically cheap chinese copies of US style fittings. The Problem is that US fitting are designed to be run on 110Vac, the Philippines is 230Vac.


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## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

bigpearl said:


> So I'll be bringing some RCD's or ELCB's (will ask my sparky) when we ship our lot there, also have to find an electrician that is up to speed on earthing and all things safe in PH. ,,,,,,,,, The mind boggles with what I have read here. Good words of warning Maxx.
> 
> Cheers, Steve.


A while back I ran into some trouble with the electrical utility company regarding the type of wire we had used for our mains (plastic coating was peeling off, and they mistook it for an illegal connection) Well, to make a long story short, they made me change my main wires and also change the main circuit breaker on the side of my house. 








Above is a picture of the new weatherproof box the utility company made me install. I purchased this one at Ace, for around 2,000 Php, and I painted it white to match my house.








In our area they require you to have a residual breaker on your main lines. Previously I just had an ordinary surface mount breaker in a wooden box that I made, but I think that this type of breaker offers much better protection. A while back my wife spilled some water onto a powers strip she was using to run a fan out on the patio. The new residual breaker kicked off right away, but none of the breakers inside my house in the main circuit breaker panel kicked. 

Anyway, I think that if my sister-in-law had a miniature residual breaker like the one I have in the above photo, then I think that - that would have protected her when her light fixture shorted out. Too make a long story short, the breakers in my main panel seem to be unreliable junk, but the residual breaker mounted on the outside wall of my house seems to be reliable.


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## Asian Spirit (Mar 1, 2010)

Great stuff on this thread. I keep hoping that one day we will have a professional writer that will combine this and other threads and put it into book form. That then should be required reading for anyone foolish er--ah-----brave enough to retire in the Philippines. Crazy place. Fifteen years here and 
I still feel like I'm living in a low budget Three Stooges Movie---that never ends :boink:


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## Hey_Joe (Sep 13, 2016)

Maxx62 said:


> A while back I ran into some trouble with the electrical utility company regarding the type of wire we had used for our mains (plastic coating was peeling off, and they mistook it for an illegal connection) Well, to make a long story short, they made me change my main wires and also change the main circuit breaker on the side of my house.
> 
> View attachment 87417
> 
> ...


Would you kindly post a close up of the residual breaker only. I may have my Electrician add this set up to the outside. Thanks!


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## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

I'm recharging the battery on my camera, will do in a few hours


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## Tukaram (Dec 18, 2014)

We had a roof leak in an apartment. The water ran down the wall and into the "breaker" for the shower water heater. It fill with water and just arced and sparked. Not only did it not trip, but the breaker in the main panel did not trip. Not a surprise, really. 

Oh, and for electrical tape... Uncle is an "electrician" here. Been paid to do electrical work for 40 years, anyway. I put a solar switch on our porch light and he came along behind me and removed all the wire nuts. He just twisted the wire together and put electrical tape. He said it holds better than wire nuts. I say he is nuts ha ha.


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

Tukaram said:


> We had a roof leak in an apartment. The water ran down the wall and into the "breaker" for the shower water heater. It fill with water and just arced and sparked. Not only did it not trip, but the breaker in the main panel did not trip. Not a surprise, really.
> 
> Oh, and for electrical tape... Uncle is an "electrician" here. Been paid to do electrical work for 40 years, anyway. I put a solar switch on our porch light and he came along behind me and removed all the wire nuts. He just twisted the wire together and put electrical tape. He said it holds better than wire nuts. I say he is nuts ha ha.


Wire nuts are not rated for 230Vac so there may be some method in his madness.


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

Asian Spirit said:


> Great stuff on this thread. I keep hoping that one day we will have a professional writer that will combine this and other threads and put it into book form. That then should be required reading for anyone foolish er--ah-----brave enough to retire in the Philippines. Crazy place. Fifteen years here and
> I still feel like I'm living in a low budget Three Stooges Movie---that never ends :boink:


They say that a monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time could type the complete works of shakespear. In my area they are still looking for the typewriter.


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## Tukaram (Dec 18, 2014)

Gary D said:


> Wire nuts are not rated for 230Vac so there may be some method in his madness.


I worked on motors and starters (HVAC mostly) for 25 years. We used wire nuts for most connections. Some larger 440 needed gurneys. One thing I have not seen here is friction tape...


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

Tukaram said:


> I worked on motors and starters (HVAC mostly) for 25 years. We used wire nuts for most connections. Some larger 440 needed gurneys. One thing I have not seen here is friction tape...


Yes wire nuts are common in the 110Vac USA but not used in 240Vac Europe. We tend to use a similar looking device that crimps the wires, otherwise it's screw terminals.


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## hogrider (May 25, 2010)

Guys, a RCD Residual Current Device is a totally different device to a MCB Miniature Circuit Breaker. They operate in completely different ways and serve different functions. The MCB's in your panel are there to protect the circuit against overlaid not to provide protection against electrocution, eg a 32A breaker will trip if the current exceeds 32A, so you could stick your fingers across the supply and electrocute yourself before the breaker would ever trip. Same with the guys melting lamp. Unless it was drawing more than the breaker rating, it would not trip, ie an MCB is not there to offer protection against electrocution.
On the other hand a RCD is designed to offer safety against electrical shock and operates completely differently. The RCD continuously monitors the Line and Neutral currents, which of course should be equal. In case of any difference in the currents by more than the trip rating of the device, typically 30mA (30 thousandths of an amp), which will happen if a human were to touch the Live wire and a small current started to flow through him to ground, then the RCD will immediately trip because some current is being diverted through him and not returning via the neutral..
In order for the device to operate correctly, the wiring in the house has to be such that all of the neutral connections are taken back to the appropriate neutral busbar, ie all of the neutrals must be segregated and connected to the neutral connected to the RCD that is being used. I have 4 banks in my breaker box and 4 RCD's protecting them. It is very easy to get a neutral wrongly connected to the wrong neutral bus bar, in which case the RCD will trip immediately as it will detect an imbalance of live and neutral currents.
To avoid nuisance tripping, it is usual to use differently rated RCD's on different circuits, typically the lighting and wall outlets will usually be 30mA, whereas the AC, Washing machine circuits, may use 100mA devices.
So I'm afraid it isn't as easy as just sticking an RCD on the incomer. 
I really recommend finding a decent electrician if you're not familiar with house wiring standards.


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## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

Hey_Joe said:


> Would you kindly post a close up of the residual breaker only. I may have my Electrician add this set up to the outside. Thanks!











Above is a picture of my residual breaker on the outside of the house. The sun was kind of intense, so I included a url link to exactly the same type of breaker ebay The manufacture is Chint, and the model number is NL1-63.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CHINT-NL...63-AMP-IEC-EN-61008-1-RCCB-RCCD-/272135865967









Above is a wider angle picture of the weatherproof box containing my breaker on the side of the house. At this time of the afternoon it is hard to get a good picture due to the glare from the sun, but I think you should be able to see what is going on if you look carefully.









Above is another weatherproof box I have on the opposite side of my house to supply current to our pressure pump.









Above is the miniature breaker inside the above weatherproof box which supplies current to our pressure pump. I picked this particular breaker because it was the lowest ratting I could find (10 Amps) and also because it was manufactured by Chint. (Never heard of Chint before moving here.)


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## Maxx62 (Dec 31, 2013)

hogrider said:


> Guys, a RCD Residual Current Device is a totally different device to a MCB Miniature Circuit Breaker. They operate in completely different ways and serve different functions. The MCB's in your panel are there to protect the circuit against overlaid not to provide protection against electrocution, eg a 32A breaker will trip if the current exceeds 32A, so you could stick your fingers across the supply and electrocute yourself before the breaker would ever trip......


Okay, that makes sense, but if I have a dead short, such as the one which occurred in my sister-in-law's light fixture, then wouldn't the dead short mean less resistance in the circuit, and if there is less resistance then amperage should increase and cause the breaker to kick? Not trying to be funny, I honestly don't know.


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## hogrider (May 25, 2010)

Maxx62 said:


> Okay, that makes sense, but if I have a dead short, such as the one which occurred in my sister-in-law's light fixture, then wouldn't the dead short mean less resistance in the circuit, and if there is less resistance then amperage should increase and cause the breaker to kick? Not trying to be funny, I honestly don't know.


The breaker will trip if the current exceeds the trip value. However, there may have been a fault in the wiring or the lamp itself which caused the overheating and still not necessarily have caused a 100% short. In may also have been that the cabling itself was underrated and overheating.
Case in point, few days ago my neighbour called me in to check out a problem he was facing with his electrics. There was a strong burning smell from within his electric panel. Nothing had tripped off. Upon investigation and removing the panel cover, there were 4 quite dead frizzled ghekhos across some of the wiring. Although they drew enough current to fry themselves, none of the breakers had tripped. An RCD would have have tripped off, may not have saved the ghekos though.


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## Missouri Bob (Feb 12, 2018)

hogrider said:


> Guys, a RCD Residual Current Device is a totally different device to a MCB Miniature Circuit Breaker. ... The MCB's in your panel are there to protect the circuit against overlaid not to provide protection against electrocution,...
> 
> On the other hand a RCD is designed to offer safety against electrical shock and operates completely differently. The RCD continuously monitors the Line and Neutral currents,.. In case of any difference in the currents by more than the trip rating of the device, typically 30mA (30 thousandths of an amp), which will happen if a human were to touch the Live wire and a small current started to flow through him to ground, then the RCD will immediately trip because some current is being diverted through him and not returning via the neutral....


Okay. In the U.S. we call an RCD a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter. You can install them as a GFCI outlet (commonly seen in CR's ) or as a breaker in the load center.


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