# overcrowding - Visitor Visa



## noobuser (Mar 29, 2014)

Hi All,

I was going through the various threads and have come across the term overcrowding in relation to spouse/fiancee visas.

Can someone please clarify if the overcrowding rule applies to visitor visa as well?

Our details:
My sister lives in the UK and my wife and I are planning to visit her. She is renting a 1 Bedroom apartment in London. My parents were supposed to visit her after my wife and I returned from our UK trip, but change in circumstances necessitate they travel with me.

As things stand now, my parents and I will be travelling together and my wife will join us the following week.

As 4 (My parents, my sister and me)of us will already be living in the flat when my wife reaches UK, can she be refused entry on grounds of overcrowding in theflat??

Do the immigration officers check for overcrowding before allowing a visitor to enter the country?


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## Crawford (Jan 23, 2011)

noobuser said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I was going through the various threads and have come across the term overcrowding in relation to spouse/fiancee visas.
> 
> ...


5 in a one bedroom apartment - that's overcrowding I would say.


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## noobuser (Mar 29, 2014)

Crawford said:


> 5 in a one bedroom apartment - that's overcrowding I would say.


Will the Immigration officer check how many people are currently staying in the apt and refuse entry? As this is a visitor visa and we are planning to spend only a couple of weeks, will this cause an issue?

I have not seen overcrowding being used as a reason for refused entry on this board atleast and am wondering if I am over thinking?


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Don't rule out anything. Immigration officer can certainly verify living conditions.


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## noobuser (Mar 29, 2014)

What course of action can be taken in this case?

My visa application states that I will be staying with my sister during my stay in UK. Can I make a hotel reservation or do I just state that I will stay with my sister and offer to make a hotel booking if the IO states overcrowding?

i am also quite concerned for my wife as she will be joining us a week later and I do not want her to be refused entry because there are 3 people who are already staying with my sister.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

What is your nationality? Are you a visa national? Either ECO or immigration officer can certainly phone up your sister to find out the housing situation, and can refuse you visa or deny you entry if it's going to be clearly overcrowded. You'd be better off booking hotel accommodation (many don't require a deposit) and show it where necessary.


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## noobuser (Mar 29, 2014)

Thanks, Joppa. 
I am from India. 
My application form stated that I will be staying with my sister and I was issued a visa based on her supporting documents. Will booking a hotel now cause a problem? Hotels in London are v expensive. Can I show a hotel booking for a hotel which is on the outskirts of london when I have stated the main purpose of my trip is to visit my sister and then go on a tour to Europe? Will I need to show a booking for my entire time in uk or can I book for s couple of days now and then maybe try looking for a cheaper option once I reach Uk?

On a second note, my covering letter to schengen states that my parents and my wife and I will be staying at my sister's place. All 4 of us have got our UK visa. We are applying from Switzerland consulate.is it possible that the swiss consulate reject our schengen visa due to the possible overcrowding in UK or possibly notify the UKBA abt this? Or will they just look at our booking in Switzerland and not bother abt our uk living arrangements?


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

While the immigration officer isn't usually interested in the size of accommodation, if they have doubt, they can certainly check it with your sister and raise objections. In that case having a few nights booked at a suburban hotel (the ones you don't have to pay in advance like with Booking.com and penalty-free cancellation) may reassure them.
The Swiss embassy won't be interested in your living arrangement in UK, but will insist you have booked accommodation for every night of your Schengen stay.


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## noobuser (Mar 29, 2014)

Joppa said:


> While the immigration officer isn't usually interested in the size of accommodation, if they have doubt, they can certainly check it with your sister and raise objections. In that case having a few nights booked at a suburban hotel (the ones you don't have to pay in advance like with Booking.com and penalty-free cancellation) may reassure them.
> The Swiss embassy won't be interested in your living arrangement in UK, but will insist you have booked accommodation for every night of your Schengen stay.


Thank you.


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## noobuser (Mar 29, 2014)

In this case, do I mention my sister's addressinthe landingform and show the hotel booking if any concerns are raised? Or do I just mention the hotel booking. Given that I have mentionedthat I will be staying with her, wont thiscreate a problem if the IO checks my application? Does the IO's system indicatehow mny visitors are currently staying in a house? This isto unddrstand if I need to show hotel bookingsfr my wife as well.


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## noobuser (Mar 29, 2014)

*Please help*

Hi Joppa,

Please help me. I understand that my questions seem repetitive but I honestly did not know that overcrowding can be a ground for entry refusal AFTER the visa has been issued. 
Does the ECO not consider a possibility that 4 individuals who have 6 month visas and who have all stated that they will be living with the same individual might have their trips overlapping?
Secondly, I have read that refusal of entry is in case of deception or giving false information.In this case, I am not deceiving anyone nor am I giving false information. 
Will the IO, if he has a concern, not ask me to book accommodation rather than outright refuse me? Do they have a system wherein they track how many visitors are staying with a certain individual at a given point in time?
I am having a hard time convincing my sister to book an alternate accommodation for me, with her citing examples of her frnds whose relatives have stayed with them without any issue. Infact my parents and sister visited my wife and me when we were living in the UK in 2012 in an 1 Bedroom apt (5 in 1
bedroom apt in this case as well)


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## noobuser (Mar 29, 2014)

I also found this
Housing Act 1985 

Not sure if this is relevant in this case.
*
329 Exception; visiting member of family.

Where the persons sleeping in an overcrowded dwelling include a member of the occupier’s family who does not live there but is sleeping there temporarily, the occupier is not guilty of an offence under section 327 (occupier causing or permitting overcrowding) unless the circumstances are such that he would be so guilty if that member of his family were not sleeping there.*


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

The requirement is that a visitor must have suitable accommodation. 5 people sleeping in one-bedroom flat isn't suitable accommodation, and realising how many will be living in your sister's flat, the immigration officer may raise objections. Chances are nothing will be asked and you will be allowed to enter, but I just want you to be on your guard, and have a plan B.


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## noobuser (Mar 29, 2014)

Joppa said:


> Chances are nothing will be asked and you will be allowed to enter, but I just want you to be on your guard, and have a plan B.


Thank you, Joppa. Your advice is really appreciated.

Can you please help me understand what you mean when you say plan B. 

Do I write my sister's address on the landing form and show the hotel booking if the IO raises concern? Or do I just book the hotel room, and show it to gain entry clearance?

Secondly, If I book the hotel room, do I have to book it for all nights that I am going to spend in UK? This is because I will be travelling to Switzerland for a week, come back to UK, spend 2 days with my sister and then leave fr india. Do I, in this case, have to show booking for the 2 nights I will be spending in U K post my Swiss tour?

Sorry abt all the questions. This thing has caught me offguard, and non cancellable flight tickets mean that my travel dates cannot be changed


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## noobuser (Mar 29, 2014)

noobuser said:


> Thank you, Joppa. Your advice is really appreciated.
> 
> Can you please help me understand what you mean when you say plan B.
> 
> ...


Just got off the phone with my sister, who has managed to convince her friend to let me stay at her house for the duration of my stay. The problem is that I have not mentioned this friend in my application at all, coz I did not foresee that I might have to stay with her during my UK visit. Can you please let me know if I can show that I am staying with my sister's friend althght I havent mentioned it in my application? Will the IO question me why was this fact was not disclosed? Can it cause a problem in any future applications? And lastly, if this is an acceptable option, what documents will I need to carry with me to show that I will be staying with her? (She stays with her roommate in a 2 bedroom apt. I am hoping I can stay there without having a cause for overcrowding)

Please help me


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

It's ok, as people often change plans. Just get a letter from her friend inviting you to stay, with a little detail about the size and how many will be living/staying. Often the living room counts as well, so she has three rooms for 3 people which is fine. No need to get her bank statement or rental contract etc.


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## noobuser (Mar 29, 2014)

Thank you, Joppa!


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