# Bureaucracy



## davio (Mar 2, 2016)

Hola! 
Que tales.

Thinking of selling up in UK and retiring to Spain. I will wait for the Brexit vote and if we stay in the EU will put my property in UK up for sale. Doing research there seems to be a lot of bureaucracy around living in Spain even as a EU citizen.

1. The medical tests for driving - how stringent are they?
2. Registering with a doctor
3. Tax arrangements for income that arises in the UK (in my case all of it)

There seem to be endless forms to fill in and hoops to jump through and that it is all work (and money) for the ubiquitous questors. How do I get a job like that.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Its not that bad really, just different, I don't use a gestor, just use an accountant for my annual tax return, ours are a little complicated.

The medical for driving licence is easy, providing you are in good health.

S1 form to the social security office, they check your residencia and that you have registered with the local council, passport, then provide you with papers to take to the health centre, and that is it, health card comes through the post.

You will enjoy life here, brugger the bureaucracy


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

There can be even less bureaucracy and expense involved in submitting your annual tax return in respect of your worldwide income - you can just ring up and get an appointment at your nearest Hacienda office (the Spanish tax office), turn up with details of your income (they don't even ask for any supporting documentation) and they complete the return for you on their computer system, if you are a couple they will show you whether it is more favourable for you to make a joint return or individual ones, give you the option of paying the tax due in two instalments or just one, and give you a direct debit form to sign if you want the tax to be paid direct from your bank account. The service is completely free - but you do need to be able to speak some Spanish, or take someone with you who does.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

sorry -posted in wrong thread


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Bureaucracy? What bureaucracy?
Got NIE and Residencia, process including waiting time less than an hour.
Changed to Spanish Driving Licence, swift and painless, received new licence after a month, two short visits to local Trafico office.
Opening bank account ...easy peasy.
Tax? As Lynn says, couldn't be simpler.
In these troubled times certain procedures are necessary and inevitable whichever country you settle in. It's much much worse in the former Soviet bloc states, believe me.
The worst 'bureaucratic' nightmare I've experienced has been with HMRC who pursued me for three years over an alleged tax debt only to finally admit they were wrong and had to issue me a rebate.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

If you get everything sorted out when you first arrive, it usually goes smoothly. If you leave it until you have a problem & need a certain bit of paper then it's likely to be way more difficult.

I was recently contacted by someone who for one reason or another didn't register herself, nor her child, at the extranjería when they arrived a couple of years ago. 

She found a job but has recently been made redundant & went to register for paro, which she's entitled to.

Now she has to get herself & her child registered as resident, in order to claim paro. Servef have been fine about her doing it now - but it's possible that she will have problems at the extranjería, since she isn't earning now!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

There's always bureaucracy when you move to a new country - check the pages for expats in the UK and you'll see they are tearing their hair out! It's the unfamiliarity that causes some people problems, especially if it's in a foreign language.

The laws and regulations in Spain have changed significantly over the past few years, however, and it's easy to stumble across out-of-date information on what you have to do. The British government website is the best place to start.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/residency-requirements-in-spain
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-spain


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## davio (Mar 2, 2016)

*Taxing Matters*



Lynn R said:


> There can be even less bureaucracy and expense involved in submitting your annual tax return in respect of your worldwide income - you can just ring up and get an appointment at your nearest Hacienda office (the Spanish tax office), turn up with details of your income (they don't even ask for any supporting documentation) and they complete the return for you on their computer system, if you are a couple they will show you whether it is more favourable for you to make a joint return or individual ones, give you the option of paying the tax due in two instalments or just one, and give you a direct debit form to sign if you want the tax to be paid direct from your bank account. The service is completely free - but you do need to be able to speak some Spanish, or take someone with you who does.


Thanks for that. 

A little research seems to show that I would pay considerably more tax in Spain than if I remained in the UK due to the much smaller personal allowance. My income would be around 18,360 Euros - made up of full State Pension (single) a small employment Pension; online work (paid and tax deducted in UK) and five weeks a year teaching on summer school at a UK University. At the moment that attracts tax of about 900 Euros converted at the current rate, but I worked out it would be about 2500 Euros in Spain. Does that sound about right?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

davio said:


> Thanks for that.
> 
> A little research seems to show that I would pay considerably more tax in Spain than if I remained in the UK due to the much smaller personal allowance. My income would be around 18,360 Euros - made up of full State Pension (single) a small employment Pension; online work (paid and tax deducted in UK) and five weeks a year teaching on summer school at a UK University. At the moment that attracts tax of about 900 Euros converted at the current rate, but I worked out it would be about 2500 Euros in Spain. Does that sound about right?


Almost exactly! I put the figures you supplied into the online simulator for last year's tax returns, for a single person aged over 65, and the tax liability comes out at €2,385.55. As you say, the smaller personal allowance makes a considerable difference. Both of us pay more tax on our pension incomes than we would if resident in the UK.

However, in spite of that we still feel we have a better standard of living here whilst spending less money. Our Council Tax is less than a quarter of what we'd pay on our old house in the UK. We only need heating for 4 months of the year here, not 8 (we lived in the cold, wet, North West of England). Our food costs less, eating out and drinks cost much less. My hairdressing bills are less than half of what I paid in the UK 9 years ago, and my gym membership is less too. We don't have a car, don't need one where we live (public transport is very cheap - although my husband would now have a free bus pass if we were in the UK) but for those who do, petrol/diesel is cheaper than in the UK. We don't have to buy a TV licence here. On the other hand, we no longer get the Winter Fuel Allowance.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

davio said:


> Thanks for that.
> 
> A little research seems to show that I would pay considerably more tax in Spain than if I remained in the UK due to the much smaller personal allowance. My income would be around 18,360 Euros - made up of full State Pension (single) a small employment Pension; online work (paid and tax deducted in UK) and five weeks a year teaching on summer school at a UK University. At the moment that attracts tax of about 900 Euros converted at the current rate, but I worked out it would be about 2500 Euros in Spain. Does that sound about right?



You can offset the extra tax, by moving to an area which due to the year round warm climate, needs no heating or air-conditioning hence no bills, where the equivalent of VAT is only 7%,making most commodities far cheaper than the U.K. and generous allowances are granted for internal flights and ferries.

Canary island life can offer all this.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

I think the main problem is language. Although you can still get some jobsworths. Anyone remember this, always makes me laugh.


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## davio (Mar 2, 2016)

OK - thanks for that idea.

David


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## davio (Mar 2, 2016)

Thank you Lyn

That's very helpful and informative. Interesting that you can manage without a car. I am not sure, for the time being, that I could and there are issues there too

Thanks again

David


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

The cost of housing in Spain, whether you rent or buy, is between a half and one third of the equivalent cost in the UK. That easily offsets the higher rates of income tax.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

davio said:


> Thank you Lyn
> 
> That's very helpful and informative. Interesting that you can manage without a car. I am not sure, for the time being, that I could and there are issues there too
> 
> ...


I have managed to get through very nearly 60 years on this earth without a car (well we did have one for a few years in the UK, after my husband's employers changed his hours of work and he would have been unable to get there in the morning by bus) and I can't drive. It can be done.

I live in a large town (but in a quiet area of it, in fact cars cannot enter my street at all) and our public transport connections are excellent, better than anywhere I ever lived in the UK.


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## davio (Mar 2, 2016)

And do you think that with a pre tax income of 18,000 Euros - (I am single) I would be able to live well and run a car? 

David


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

davio said:


> And do you think that with a pre tax income of 18,000 Euros - (I am single) I would be able to live well and run a car?
> 
> David


Shouldn't be a problem - depends on your lifestyle and housing costs. But millions of Spaniards manage on much less than that.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

davio said:


> And do you think that with a pre tax income of 18,000 Euros - (I am single) I would be able to live well and run a car?
> 
> David


If you'd have no rent or mortgage to pay out of that you could live very well, although never having had a car I could not say how much they cost to run here.

If you have to pay housing costs out of that, after tax and say €500 per month in rent which would get you something decent in all but the most expensive areas, you would still be left with €1,000 per month which should be quite sufficient for a good life, maybe not if you want to go on Caribbean cruises every winter though!

By the way, if you rent here you do not normally have to pay the IBI (Council Tax) bill on top of the rent, the landlord usually pays it, so you only have to budget for the utility bills, phone and internet.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

davio said:


> And do you think that with a pre tax income of 18,000 Euros - (I am single) I would be able to live well and run a car?
> 
> David


That's 1500 euros a month before tax at current exchange rates, presumably.
Depending on your expectations of your lifestyle here and where you choose to live, you should be OK. But in some parts of Spain that 1500 euros would cover the monthly rent on a house. Just as in the UK, it's location. In other parts you could rent a house for 500 euros a month or less.
Just bear in mind that exchange rates fluctuate- when we arrived it was at parity - and that if you run a car you will be adding to your monthly costs.


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