# Residency before the Brexit gate locks.



## therese1 (Jan 28, 2016)

I know there's a lot of second guessing but I'm in the process of buying and mooted with the lawyer the idea of going straight for residency even though I won't be living in Spain immediately.
I'm not able to put a time-line on a permanent move as I have caring committments in UK. But I'm thinking that some arbitrary date may come into play when the brexiteers actually get round to invoking the Article. I know there will be health insurance to pay but think it may be worth the hassle.
Is anyone else in the same boat. I'm ten years away from actual retirement so will have to return to work at some point anyway. I'm planning on working three or four months per year wen my folks are sorted. So hopefully spending the bulk of the year in Spain.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

therese1 said:


> I know there's a lot of second guessing but I'm in the process of buying and mooted with the lawyer the idea of going straight for residency even though I won't be living in Spain immediately.
> I'm not able to put a time-line on a permanent move as I have caring committments in UK. But I'm thinking that some arbitrary date may come into play when the brexiteers actually get round to invoking the Article. I know there will be health insurance to pay but think it may be worth the hassle.
> Is anyone else in the same boat. I'm ten years away from actual retirement so will have to return to work at some point anyway. I'm planning on working three or four months per year wen my folks are sorted. So hopefully spending the bulk of the year in Spain.




I'd be interested to know what the lawyer said.......

A lot of us think that there will be some date or other chosen - it might even be the date the referendum happened!

As for registering as resident....You register as resident if you are here, or plan to be here, 90 or more days consecutively

So yes, you could indeed register as resident now, if you were to be here for that length of time


However - if you were to do so, there's a chance that at some stage questions would be asked as to why you weren't submitting resident tax returns etc.


'Residency' & tax residency aren't the same thing though, so if that should happen then you'd need ot be able to prove that you were never here more than 182 days a year

But then again - tax residency isn't only decided by number of days here. The tax office also uses 'centre of economic interest' as a decider, so if you own property here, & are registered as resident here, they might just decide that you are tax resident as well.......


so it could get complicated


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## therese1 (Jan 28, 2016)

The lawyer has said that the next couple of months unlikely to make any difference. 
I would be gutted if they used the actual referendum day vote as the cut-off.
I will be here for more than ninety days likely so won't feel like a fraud if I go for residency. I won't be earning anything though so not paying taxes. 
Will post more if lawyer comes up with anything definitive.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

therese1 said:


> The lawyer has said that the next couple of months unlikely to make any difference.
> I would be gutted if they used the actual referendum day vote as the cut-off.
> I will be here for more than ninety days likely so won't feel like a fraud if I go for residency. I won't be earning anything though so not paying taxes.
> Will post more if lawyer comes up with anything definitive.


It really depends what you mean by 'cut off date'


Until Brexit is final & the signatures are on the exit documents, Britain is still in the EU & you will still be able to move here


That's still more than 2 years away - so no need to panic yet as far as moving here is concerned

When those of us already here talk about a cut off date, we're thinking more about at what point, if there is a point, that we might retain the rights we currently have, such as pensioners keeping pensions, healthcare rights etc.


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## piersuk (Nov 13, 2015)

Not wishing to sound flippant but I doubt your lawyer knows no more than anyone else. It's just a guess. In fact I'd be surprised if any decisions have been made behind closed doors let alone out in the open. 

What's 90 days about? My lawyer advises me it's even more complicated, despite not earning in Spain, tax may still be due....

I'm in the same position as you and like you would rather be on the optimistic side of the camp but no-one knows.

Fingers crossed for many I'm sure


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## therese1 (Jan 28, 2016)

piersuk said:


> Not wishing to sound flippant but I doubt your lawyer knows no more than anyone else. It's just a guess. In fact I'd be surprised if any decisions have been made behind closed doors let alone out in the open.
> 
> What's 90 days about? My lawyer advises me it's even more complicated, despite not earning in Spain, tax may still be due....
> 
> ...


Fingers crossed about covers it. Still cannot get my head around the whole fiasco.
I'm not actually that optimistic given the captain mainwaring grandstanding so far of Boris, Liam and co.
I know there are threads on here where folk have re-assessed their plans, got cold feet or whatever. The one good thing that came out of it for me was it gave me the impetus to get on with it.
Good luck with your move.


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## Rich M (Jan 24, 2016)

Will it not be possible to apply for residency visas in the future if necessary (especially of the non lucrative type) ?


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## piersuk (Nov 13, 2015)

Probably... You can obtain residency as a non EU citizen now so no real reason why that wouldn't continue. BUT who knows...


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

I can't see them using the brexit vote date as the cut off date for residency as that vote is essentially only guidance from the people.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Roy C said:


> I can't see them using the brexit vote date as the cut off date for residency as that vote is essentially only guidance from the people.


... and is not legally binding anyway.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Rich M said:


> Will it not be possible to apply for residency visas in the future if necessary (especially of the non lucrative type) ?


Non-EU citizens can apply for visas of course, & possibly that is what British citizens will have to do after Brexit

Of course the financial requirements are much higher for non-EU than the current requirements for EU 

For example, a British pensioner only has to prove that they have a state pension atm. It doesn't matter how much that is - or how little. Indeed many pensioners have an annual income below the 18,000€ threshold for the lowest rate, or free in some regions, of prescription charges. And of course Britain is currently funding healthcare, so British pensioners don't need private health insurance either.

This from the Spanish consulate gives a requirement of annual income of 25,560€ + 6390€ per additional family member. http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consulados/SANFRANCISCO/en/ConsularServices/Documents/visas/RetirementVisa.pdf

So for a couple that's an annual income of 31,950€, & of course private healthcare insurance is required.

I suspect there will be far fewer British pensioners moving to Spain after Brexit. I don't know many retired Brits with that kind of income.


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> It really depends what you mean by 'cut off date'
> 
> 
> Until Brexit is final & the signatures are on the exit documents, Britain is still in the EU & you will still be able to move here
> ...


This is from the Migration Watch UK web site (dated March 2016): "The government’s paper 'The Process for Withdrawing from the European Union' argues that British citizens in the EU should not assume that rights acquired under free movement rules 'would be guaranteed' if the UK were to vote to leave the EU. However, in such a circumstance. international law would guarantee the rights of Britons living and working in EU member states. Under a principle enshrined by the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties 1969, withdrawal from a treaty releases the parties from any future obligations to each other but does not affect any rights or obligations acquired under it before withdrawal."


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

The Skipper said:


> This is from the Migration Watch UK web site (dated March 2016): "The government’s paper 'The Process for Withdrawing from the European Union' argues that British citizens in the EU should not assume that rights acquired under free movement rules 'would be guaranteed' if the UK were to vote to leave the EU. However, in such a circumstance.* international law would guarantee the rights of Britons living and working in EU member states*. Under a principle enshrined by the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties 1969, withdrawal from a treaty releases the parties from any future obligations to each other but does not affect any rights or obligations acquired under it before withdrawal."


That refers to the rights granted by the host nation. It doesn't mean that they retain the rights granted by their country of origin. So for example Brits who have retired to Spain have no guarantee that the UK will keep paying for their healthcare post Brexit.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

I see that the original poster - therese1 is from Scotland and no doubt one of the 62 per cent of Scots that voted to Remain in
the European Union.
No doubt Nicola Sturgeon and her colleagues in the Scottish Government in Edinburgh will be fighting to maintain Scotland's
interests in the EU and those of her Expats.


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> That refers to the rights granted by the host nation. It doesn't mean that they retain the rights granted by their country of origin. So for example Brits who have retired to Spain have no guarantee that the UK will keep paying for their healthcare post Brexit.


But it wouldn't make sense not to, would it? Apart from the electoral backlash, if the UK government changed its policy of paying for the healthcare of pensioners living in Spain, and they started flooding back into the UK as a result, the NHS would have to pick up the cost of healthcare. I am sure a clever civil servant could produce some figures to show that it's probably cheaper to pay Spain for the healthcare of UK pensioners rather than encouraging them to return to the UK!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

The Skipper said:


> But it wouldn't make sense not to, would it? Apart from the electoral backlash, if the UK government changed its policy of paying for the healthcare of pensioners living in Spain, and they started flooding back into the UK as a result, the NHS would have to pick up the cost of healthcare. I am sure a clever civil servant could produce some figures to show that it's probably cheaper to pay Spain for the healthcare of UK pensioners rather than encouraging them to return to the UK!


On the face of it I agree that it wouldn't make sense

But UK pensioners living in the EU already have the right to full access to healthcare in the UK, as of April 2015, so arguably the UK should have already budgeted for it.

Not all would return, & I doubt it would be a flood. Any living in Spain before April 2012 would be entitled to free healthcare in Spain anyway (under current rules) as long as they have no access to healthcare in any other way - though my point above might just put a spanner in those works

I don't think that there would be much of an electoral backlash - from what I've seen & heard from those living in Britain, few seem to care about how Brexit affects those of us who no longer live there. We chose to leave. We have to live with that choice & get on with it. (not my opinion - paraphrasing many comments I've read & heard)


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> I don't think that there would be much of an electoral backlash - from what I've seen & heard from those living in Britain, few seem to care about how Brexit affects those of us who no longer live there. We chose to leave. We have to live with that choice & get on with it. (not my opinion - paraphrasing many comments I've read & heard)


Indeed. Judging by the fuss made over paying winter fuel allowance to pensioners living in Spain (now discontinued), a future government might even make electoral capital out of saving taxpayers' money by no longer funding our healthcare. If we can afford to live in Spain we can afford to go private, blah blah.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> On the face of it I agree that it wouldn't make sense
> 
> But UK pensioners living in the EU already have the right to full access to healthcare in the UK, as of April 2015, so arguably the UK should have already budgeted for it.
> 
> ...


I also have to take into account the fact that a number of leading Brexit campaigners, and many, many comments I continue to read online (not just here but in newspapers too) say quite openly that they acknowledge the fact that Britain will most probably be worse off financially as a consequence, but they are not bothered about that as long as they have "got their country back" and believe they can control immigration (some of them go further and think it means they can get rid of immigrants already there). If they're that determined to cut off their noses to spite their faces, then despite the fact that what The Skipper says is just common sense, I don't have a lot of confidence that a sound economic argument would prevail.


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> On the face of it I agree that it wouldn't make sense
> 
> But UK pensioners living in the EU already have the right to full access to healthcare in the UK, as of April 2015, so arguably the UK should have already budgeted for it.
> 
> ...


Pensioners living in Spain still have a vote in UK parliamentary elections ... at least for the first 15 years!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

The Skipper said:


> Pensioners living in Spain still have a vote in UK parliamentary elections ... at least for the first 15 years!


Not only pensioners, but yes - only 15 years

I read somewhere that there are more Brits living in the EU who have been out of the UK for more than 15 years than those who haven't

And there weren't enough of us to swing the Brexit vote ( & yes I know not all expats voted Remain) 

I for one won't get another vote


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## therese1 (Jan 28, 2016)

Williams2 said:


> I see that the original poster - therese1 is from Scotland and no doubt one of the 62 per cent of Scots that voted to Remain in
> the European Union.
> No doubt Nicola Sturgeon and her colleagues in the Scottish Government in Edinburgh will be fighting to maintain Scotland's
> interests in the EU and those of her Expats.


I am English but have lived and worked in Scotland for more than thirty years.
I did of course vote to remain. And while I expect the First Minister to pursue continued EU membership - I fear if this is via independence it will not be any time soon.


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## therese1 (Jan 28, 2016)

xabiachica said:


> Non-EU citizens can apply for visas of course, & possibly that is what British citizens will have to do after Brexit
> 
> Of course the financial requirements are much higher for non-EU than the current requirements for EU
> 
> ...


Very good of you to source this info. I certainly won't meet the requirements as a non-EU citizen. No doubt our government will expect special treatment. As in, could these rules be waived etc. Just add to the quagmire of negotiations.
The only saving grace is it will likely take years - I will be a pensioner by the time they sort it out.


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

I suppose this is were I'm lucky, I have an Irish passport and even though I've lived in the UK most of my life I should be safe because of my passport no matter what date they decide as the cut off point, if there is something like that. Not sure what will happen my wife as she can't have an Irish passport and has a British one.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Roy C said:


> I suppose this is were I'm lucky, I have an Irish passport and even though I've lived in the UK most of my life I should be safe because of my passport no matter what date they decide as the cut off point, if there is something like that. Not sure what will happen my wife as she can't have an Irish passport and has a British one.


Your wife would be the spouse of an EU citizen exercising treaty rights, so would be able to get a visa based upon that, if she needed to.


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