# What are orthographic changing verbs?



## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

I'm studying Spanish and have come across the term "orthographic changing verbs." I see the verbs, but don't understand what they mean by this. Does anyone know?

Here are two sites - present tense and preterite tense of orthographic changing verbs.

Spanish Orthographic Changing Verbs

Spanish Preterite Orthographic Verbs


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## BMC77 (Aug 15, 2009)

Orthographic changing verbs are verbs where the spelling changes in certain forms, often to maintain the pronunciation. Take the verb 'conducir', for example. Normally, to form the first person in the present simple we remove the -ir/-er/-ar ending and add 'o', but in this case, 'conduco' would require a pronunciation change, so we use 'condu*z*co'.

In other cases, the verb form changes in all forms except _nosotros_ and _vosotros_, e.g. 's*e*guir' *(e > i)*: s*i*go, s*i*gues, s*i*gue, seguimos (no change), seguís (no change), s*i*guen.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Thank you BMC77. That makes sense now.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

So in other words before they decide to change the name again to something else fancy that nobody understands - they are stem-changing verbs.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Orthagaric is to do with dodgey feet. You can get those built up shoes, boots with one higher than the other or if you can't afford Orthagaric footwear just walk with one foot down the kerb


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

BMC77 said:


> Orthographic changing verbs are verbs where the spelling changes in certain forms, often to maintain the pronunciation. Take the verb 'conducir', for example. Normally, to form the first person in the present simple we remove the -ir/-er/-ar ending and add 'o', but in this case, 'conduco' would require a pronunciation change, so we use 'condu*z*co'.
> 
> In other cases, the verb form changes in all forms except _nosotros_ and _vosotros_, e.g. 's*e*guir' *(e > i)*: s*i*go, s*i*gues, s*i*gue, seguimos (no change), seguís (no change), s*i*guen.


OK but do you know why they change? If you do, there is never any problem.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> So in other words before they decide to change the name again to something else fancy that nobody understands - they are stem-changing verbs.


Stem-changing verbs are a different category. These have to do with the endings - not the stem, even though sometimes the stem changes. So perhaps a less fancy word for them would be end-changing verbs, but that doesn't address how the stem changes. So I guess that's why they call them orthographic. I like Rabbitcat's idea!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> So in other words before they decide to change the name again to something else fancy that nobody understands - they are stem-changing verbs.


Often known as 'shoe' verbs.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> OK but do you know why they change? If you do, there is never any problem.


Isn't it like BCM said - that it's to correctly pronounce a word, like in the example conducir?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> Isn't it like BCM said - that it's to correctly pronounce a word, like in the example conducir?


In the example you gave "seguir" if the letter 'g' is followed by 'i' or 'e' the 'g' goes soft, and in order to maintain the hard 'g' it is followed by a silent 'u' (not ü - with diaeresis). 'Seguir is a stem changer which is why it also goes from "seg..." to "sig...".

Stem changing xorx verbs go to xuerx - e.g. dormir for certain tenses and for some persons.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> In the example you gave "seguir" if the letter 'g' is followed by 'i' or 'e' the 'g' goes soft, and in order to maintain the hard 'g' it is followed by a silent 'u' (not ü - with diaeresis). 'Seguir is a stem changer which is why it also goes from "seg..." to "sig...".
> 
> Stem changing xorx verbs go to xuerx - e.g. dormir for certain tenses and for some persons.


Seguir is an example of both a stem-changing verb and an orthographic verb. 

Dormir is an example of a stem-changing verb, but not an orthographic verb.

That's how I understand it anyway.

But now I see that the pronunciation rationale applies to both stem-changing and orthographic verbs. Thank you!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Orthography just means spelling. So verbs can change either the root (such as dormir/duermo) or the ending (e.g. coger/cojo) - they all count as orthographic changes.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

If anyone needs some revision on these (like me!) this site is really good.

http://www.studyspanish.com/verbs/lessons/piortho.htm

Spanish Preterite Orthographic Verbs


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> If anyone needs some revision on these (like me!) this site is really good.
> 
> Spanish Orthographic Changing Verbs
> 
> Spanish Preterite Orthographic Verbs


Those are the links I gave in my original post.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> Orthography just means spelling. So verbs can change either the root (such as dormir/duermo) or the ending (e.g. coger/cojo) - they all count as orthographic changes.


I looked at other sites and see that some sites distinguish between orthographic and stem-changing verbs, like the site we gave links to. See on the left they have the stem-changing verbs and orthographic verbs separately?

Here are two more sites that distinguish between the two:

https://121spanish.com/preterite-orthographic-changes

Spanish Orthographic Rules

So when they distinguish between the two, orthographic means they are referring to verbs with a particular ending.

Not all sites teach Spanish the same way, and some tenses even have different wording, so that's something to be aware of. It's good to know that not everyone uses the term orthographic the same way. Thank you!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> I looked at other sites and see that some sites distinguish between orthographic and stem-changing verbs, like the site we gave links to. See on the left they have the stem-changing verbs and orthographic verbs separately?
> 
> Here are two more sites that distinguish between the two:
> 
> ...


So many different books call the tenses different names that it's ridiculous!

I teach that there are 'simple' tenses & 'compound' or 'perfect' tenses - then teach when to use them, rather than what they are called. None of my students are likely to ever be asked the names of the tenses anyway, & neither do they much care. 


Orthography is all about spelling though, so orthographic changes in verbs do simply mean changes in spelling, whether in the groups of stem/root changing 'shoe' verbs, or where perhaps just one conjugation changes for reasons of pronunciation continuity.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> So many different books call the tenses different names that it's ridiculous!
> 
> I teach that there are 'simple' tenses & 'compound' or 'perfect' tenses - then teach when to use them, rather than what they are called. None of my students are likely to ever be asked the names of the tenses anyway, & neither do they much care.
> 
> ...


It makes it harder to learn when people don't follow the same rules. 

How can I memorise all these verb rules? I'm absolutely overwhelmed! The StudySpanish website says there are three tricks in learning these: Practice, practice and practice. Is there no other way?!


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Ignoring the question of which language is as a whole the more difficult to learn, surely in this area (verbs) Spanish is MUCH more difficult than English?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> It makes it harder to learn when people don't follow the same rules.
> 
> How can I memorise all these verb rules? I'm absolutely overwhelmed! The StudySpanish website says there are three tricks in learning these: Practice, practice and practice. Is there no other way?!


And I think you'll find that wise ol' PW said the same a few posts back.
Of course there's no other way AllHeart.
Not until the chip - in - brain implantation is up and running. It may only take a couple of years though, if you want to wait!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jimenato said:


> Ignoring the question of which language is as a whole the more difficult to learn, surely in this area (verbs) Spanish is MUCH more difficult than English?


But English more than makes up for it with 
Multi word/ phrasal verbs - to get up to something, to get over an illness etc)
Use of prepositions - worried about, married to, depend on, responsible for etc)
Idioms (to be up in arms about something/ to be caught red handed etc)
and SPELLING (Cough but stuff, though but bow, through but threw etc)


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> And I think you'll find that wise ol' PW said the same a few posts back.
> Of course there's no other way AllHeart.
> Not until the chip - in - brain implantation is up and running. It may only take a couple of years though, if you want to wait!


Yes, you're wise! But you didn't post that. Maybe you were thinking of posting it? You haven't posted in this thread.

I would love to get that implant. OMG I'm drowning in rules here!  There's no end in sight.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> Yes, you're wise! But you didn't post that. Maybe you were thinking of posting it? You haven't posted in this thread.
> 
> I would love to get that implant. OMG I'm drowning in rules here!  There's no end in sight.


Yes, you're right. I was too busy being wise on the Learning Spanish thread to be wise on this one too! This was the post in reply to Maureen 47 I think


> going to class for 2 or even 3 or 4 hours a week will not be enough to learn or make progress in a language. People will see much more progress if they do as you do - work at home, go over class work, and practice, practice, practice


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, you're right. I was too busy being wise on the Learning Spanish thread to be wise on this one too! This was the post in reply to Maureen 47 I think


I totally agree that you need to study outside class. The thing is, my class is more advanced than I am with verbs, so I'm not getting much out of class, even though I'm doing 8 hours of classes one week alternating with 10 hours of classes the following week. I'm at their level for everything but verbs. So when we talk about verbs I'm lost! I'm just trying to get caught up and I don't know that I can before the course ends in June.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> It makes it harder to learn when people don't follow the same rules.
> 
> How can I memorise all these verb rules? I'm absolutely overwhelmed! The StudySpanish website says there are three tricks in learning these: Practice, practice and practice. Is there no other way?!


Allheart: You have the rules for the various groups of verbs and their various conjugations in the documents I have already given you. Verbs can, for the most part, be categorised by their endings.

Verbs are in Section 3. Do you want me to resend the latest version?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> It makes it harder to learn when people don't follow the same rules.
> 
> How can I memorise all these verb rules? I'm absolutely overwhelmed! The StudySpanish website says there are three tricks in learning these: Practice, practice and practice. Is there no other way?!


You'll learn the verbs you use the most just by using them. Then one day you'll use one of the others & realise that it sounded wrong when you didn't change it - & somehow you'll know how it should sound & correct yourself.

I'm a great believer in not trying to learn _everything_ - there are verbs I don't use in English - so why would I need them in Spanish?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jimenato said:


> Ignoring the question of which language is as a whole the more difficult to learn, surely in this area (verbs) Spanish is MUCH more difficult than English?


Yes I'd agree, if only because in English you only have to learn a few words (I, you, etc.) to say before the verb, & for most tenses, the only conjugation which changes is the 3rd person singular (he/she). 

There are even less conjugations to learn for the compound tenses in English.


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## xolo (May 25, 2014)

You can know all the grammar rules and not be able to speak, and conversely many native speakers have little idea of grammar. If you want to learn the simplified language called Spanish, be sure to get out and talk to people. Grammar is good to know to make sure you are speaking grammatically, but is not something we should hold in reverence like it is the language itself.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> Yes I'd agree, if only because in English you only have to learn a few words (I, you, etc.) to say before the verb, & for most tenses, the only conjugation which changes is the 3rd person singular (he/she).
> 
> There are even less conjugations to learn for the compound tenses in English.


...fewer...:bolt:


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jimenato said:


> ...fewer...:bolt:


Good job I don't teach English any more eh?? 

I'm very good at Spanglish though


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

xolo said:


> You can know all the grammar rules and not be able to speak, and conversely many native speakers have little idea of grammar. If you want to learn the simplified language called Spanish, be sure to get out and talk to people. Grammar is good to know to make sure you are speaking grammatically, but is not something we should hold in reverence like it is the language itself.


Yes, talk to people and also watch TV news or programmes with the Spanish subtitles turned on, and above all _read the papers_. Exposure is all important, with it comes recognition and familiarity especially with verb endings, tenses etc. See it, learn what it means, then use it.

I feel desperately sorry for Spanish people learning English. The pronunciation is a nightmare and there are no rules (or too many exceptions). Spanish pronunciation is dead easy once you've learned the rules. 

I was reading something the other day about might, could, should, would etc and all the other "modal verbs". They are called "defective" because only certain forms have survived (for example "might" doesn't have a past tense). They are very difficult to teach. In Spanish you use the subjunctive instead, which is relatively simple, but we English speakers always struggle with it.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Excellent feedback. Thank you! Yes, Baldilocks, I would appreciate you re-sending your book. It will be good to have another source of info.

One of the reasons I picked Malaga is because there aren't a lot of expats here, so I can practice my Spanish everywhere I go in person and online - reading, writing, speaking and listening. To now I haven't studied, and I've come leaps and bounds just with this. So when you guys say that one day it will just sound right and that I don't have to study everything, I know what you mean, because this has been my experience with everything I've learned to now. I just never thought about it with the grammar and verbs, but you're probably right. 

I think I'm studying too much right now, now that I have classes and I'm studying outside of class too, and it's bogging me down and overwhelming me. But I remind myself that I have the rest of my life to learn Spanish. So I'm going to reduce the studying, knowing that it will fall into place naturally, like the rest of the language has for me. Again, thank you all for your sage advice.


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

Allheart, I read this article earlier and thought of you, perhaps you will find it useful 

Polyglot reveals the biggest secret to learning a new language - Business Insider


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Helenameva said:


> Allheart, I read this article earlier and thought of you, perhaps you will find it useful
> 
> Polyglot reveals the biggest secret to learning a new language - Business Insider



Thanks for thinking of me.  I find the article really quite weak. Of course we have to learn the context and culture and etymology of words to use them properly. But what he's talking about - using flashcards and memorising - can't be replaced by learning cultural significance of the words when it comes to learning grammar and verb conjugations. 

Yesterday I talked to my teacher and my classmates about learning verb conjugations. Most of them use huge textbooks dedicated only to the subject of verb conjugations. Some of my classmates showed me their textbooks. Is this a method people here have used?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> Thanks for thinking of me.  I find the article really quite weak. Of course we have to learn the context and culture and etymology of words to use them properly. But what he's talking about - using flashcards and memorising - can't be replaced by learning cultural significance of the words when it comes to learning grammar and verb conjugations.
> 
> Yesterday I talked to my teacher and my classmates about learning verb conjugations. *Most of them use huge textbooks dedicated only to the subject of verb conjugations. Some of my classmates showed me their textbooks. Is this a method people here have used?*


ugh! no!!

I think If I had tried to learn Spanish that way I'd have given up years ago!!

I have students who have come to me who have obviously done that - they can recite verb after verb in any tense you ask them to - & even name the tenses..... but struggle to put anything into practice  

Yes there's a place for rote learning - but it's no good without actually using what you can reel off..........


I prefer to learn the _patterns_ of the language - & talk talk talk


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I did use flashcards and verb drills when I was learning, for about half an hour a day. It helped with vocabulary and with verb endings. But it's like your times tables, once they are drummed into your brain you can forget about them and get on with the fun stuff, the actual communication.

I was still in England then and didn't have any Spanish people to talk to, so I used to listen to Onda Cero radio and pick my way through El País every week. It's much easier actually being here!


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

AllHeart said:


> Thanks for thinking of me.  I find the article really quite weak. Of course we have to learn the context and culture and etymology of words to use them properly. But what he's talking about - using flashcards and memorising - can't be replaced by learning cultural significance of the words when it comes to learning grammar and verb conjugations.
> 
> Yesterday I talked to my teacher and my classmates about learning verb conjugations. Most of them use huge textbooks dedicated only to the subject of verb conjugations. Some of my classmates showed me their textbooks. Is this a method people here have used?


He's not saying use flash cards, or rote learn, rather the opposite. I would use something like Duolingo or Memrise anyway rather than flash cards, the vocabulary is wider, more random, more challenging than flash cards and, if you put the apps on your phone or tablet, easier to use when you have a few minutes here and there.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> ugh! no!!
> 
> I think If I had tried to learn Spanish that way I'd have given up years ago!!
> 
> ...


Just looking at the books made me want to give up! Eek! What a relief to know from you and others here that that isn't the only way to learn! Phew!

I'm female, so I get what you mean by talk, talk, talk.  But what do you mean by looking at the patterns of the language?


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> I did use flashcards and verb drills when I was learning, for about half an hour a day. It helped with vocabulary and with verb endings. But it's like your times tables, once they are drummed into your brain you can forget about them and get on with the fun stuff, the actual communication.
> 
> I was still in England then and didn't have any Spanish people to talk to, so I used to listen to Onda Cero radio and pick my way through El País every week. It's much easier actually being here!


I am looking forward to the time when it's second nature in conversation. I love talking with others, and I'm an extrovert, so there is a huge incentive to learning here.

I love that analogy with the times tables! Or like the periodic table. That's exactly how I'm seeing this verb conjugation, but a whole textbook of 500 pages doesn't seem necessary to me, or interesting, or feasible. Did you primarily use the StudySpanish site that I'm using to learn your verbs and grammar?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> Just looking at the books made me want to give up! Eek! What a relief to know from you and others here that that isn't the only way to learn! Phew!
> 
> I'm female, so I get what you mean by talk, talk, talk.  But what do you mean by looking at the patterns of the language?


Rather than learning to conjugate tons of verbs in lots of tenses, just learn the patterns of the conjugations in the different tenses, and apply them to the language you use in your every day life, & gradually build your 'stock' of verbs & vocab.

To me, the Spanish language is all about patterns & rules. Once you understand those, you can apply them to new verbs, nouns, adjectives etc., as you come across them. Even the 'irregulars' are in groups with others which follow the same rules & patterns!


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Helenameva said:


> He's not saying use flash cards, or rote learn, rather the opposite. I would use something like Duolingo or Memrise anyway rather than flash cards, the vocabulary is wider, more random, more challenging than flash cards and, if you put the apps on your phone or tablet, easier to use when you have a few minutes here and there.


Yes, I know that's what he's saying. My sentence structure was atrocious. This is what I said. 



AllHeart said:


> Of course we have to learn the context and culture and etymology of words to use them properly. But what he's talking about - using flashcards and memorising - can't be replaced by learning cultural significance of the words when it comes to learning grammar and verb conjugations.


I should have said... Of course we have to learn the context and culture and etymology of words to use them properly (like he says - he calls these by the fancy names cognitive linguistics and cultural semantics). But he says using flashcards and memorising can be replaced by learning the cultural significance of the words; but, when it comes to learning grammar and verb conjugations, I don't think they can be replaced. 

How do Memrise and Duolingo teach verb conjugations and grammar?


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> Rather than learning to conjugate tons of verbs in lots of tenses, just learn the patterns of the conjugations in the different tenses, and apply them to the language you use in your every day life, & gradually build your 'stock' of verbs & vocab.
> 
> To me, the Spanish language is all about patterns & rules. Once you understand those, you can apply them to new verbs, nouns, adjectives etc., as you come across them. Even the 'irregulars' are in groups with others which follow the same rules & patterns!


That's exactly how StudySpanish is teaching the verbs and grammar, like an eagle's eye view of the big picture with general rules followed by general exceptions. I'm really liking that approach as it minimises this vast ocean! 

Last year when I tried to study I had to set it aside to focus on other more important matters, but I remember when I was struggling you suggested only learning a few of the verbs. I like that idea, and that's what I'm thinking of doing. So for each section, I'll pick out a few verbs that I use regularly as my model verbs, then go back later to the sections and add a few more over time. I think that's what you mean, right?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> But what do you mean by looking at the patterns of the language?


The verbs form patterns. There are many groups Three of which are the regular verbs they each follow a pattern according to whether they are 'ar, 'er,' or 'ir' ending. The irregular verbs, apart from few, can all be grouped with others to form their own patterns and within each group, they follow the same pattern. 
Look at nouns the majority of those that end in 'a' are feminine, most of those that end in 'ema,' conversely, are masculine - they form patterns.

etc.


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

AllHeart said:


> Yes, I know that's what he's saying. My sentence structure was atrocious. This is what I said.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh I see. You didn't say anything like that in your first reply though! I still think you're missing the point of the article though.

As I said before, I think Memrise and Duolingo are good for replacing flash cards, not so much conjugations and grammar, although Duolingo would help a bit, things like word order, pronouns, come up. These apps on their own are no where near good enough, nothing on its own is enough really, but they are a nice 'fun' diversion, another tool to use.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> That's exactly how StudySpanish is teaching the verbs and grammar, like an eagle's eye view of the big picture with general rules followed by general exceptions. I'm really liking that approach as it minimises this vast ocean!
> 
> Last year when I tried to study I had to set it aside to focus on other more important matters, but I remember when I was struggling you suggested only learning a few of the verbs. I like that idea, and that's what I'm thinking of doing. So for each section, I'll pick out a few verbs that I use regularly as my model verbs, then go back later to the sections and add a few more over time. I think that's what you mean, right?


That's exactly what I mean


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> The verbs form patterns. There are many groups Three of which are the regular verbs they each follow a pattern according to whether they are 'ar, 'er,' or 'ir' ending. The irregular verbs, apart from few, can all be grouped with others to form their own patterns and within each group, they follow the same pattern.
> Look at nouns the majority of those that end in 'a' are feminine, most of those that end in 'ema,' conversely, are masculine - they form patterns.
> 
> etc.


Yes, that's exactly how I'm being taught. I like in your book how you explain the verbs. It's a similar approach, but more concise. So once I get the bird's eye view from StudySpanish, your book will be the next step - a closer look, but still an overview.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Helenameva said:


> Oh I see. You didn't say anything like that in your first reply though! I still think you're missing the point of the article though.


I'm trying to be kind, but it's not coming to me easily. I see the exact same thing said twice, with bad sentence structure. I'll put it another way: I think his so-called secret is bullcrap and that he's trying to come across as an authority on reinventing the wheel. Or perhaps I'm missing the point of the article, like you say? What do you think the point is?



Helenameva said:


> As I said before, I think Memrise and Duolingo are good for replacing flash cards, not so much conjugations and grammar, although Duolingo would help a bit, things like word order, pronouns, come up. These apps on their own are no where near good enough, nothing on its own is enough really, but they are a nice 'fun' diversion, another tool to use.


But we're talking specifically here about grammar and verb conjugation. Remember last year I was studying this verb drills section of StudySpanish?

Spanish Verb Conjugation Drills

Then remember you pointed out this grammar section of StudySpanish?

Spanish Grammar

Well, I'm studying those two sections, but focusing first on that grammar section that you showed me. Thank you again for pointing out that section!


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> That's exactly what I mean


Thank you for those suggestions. Will do!


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

AllHeart said:


> It makes it harder to learn when people don't follow the same rules.
> 
> How can I memorise all these verb rules? I'm absolutely overwhelmed! The StudySpanish website says there are three tricks in learning these: Practice, practice and practice. Is there no other way?!


Mrs Horlics is learning Spanish and was struggling with verbs when learning from books. I had a look through some Spanish study material I had acquired over the years but never used, seeking an alternative approach for her. 

I came across Michel Thomas and listened to it with her, and couldn't help thinking that I wish I'd listened to him a few years ago. I'm pretty good with verbs at this stage but still picked up a few ways of remembering/working out the endings for verbs which I don't use often and therefore don't remember.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> I am looking forward to the time when it's second nature in conversation. I love talking with others, and I'm an extrovert, so there is a huge incentive to learning here.
> 
> I love that analogy with the times tables! Or like the periodic table. That's exactly how I'm seeing this verb conjugation, but a whole textbook of 500 pages doesn't seem necessary to me, or interesting, or feasible. Did you primarily use the StudySpanish site that I'm using to learn your verbs and grammar?


Yes, I used that site a lot in my lunch hour while I was still working in an office.

That book, if it's the one I'm thinking of, is primarily a reference book. You don't need to read it cover to cover. These days, online drills and phone apps are much more useful but they weren't around when I started learning Spanish ten years ago!


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

AllHeart said:


> I'm trying to be kind, but it's not coming to me easily. I see the exact same thing said twice, with bad sentence structure. I'll put it another way: I think his so-called secret is bullcrap and that he's trying to come across as an authority on reinventing the wheel. Or perhaps I'm missing the point of the article, like you say? What do you think the point is?


At my daughter's parents evening the other day, the teacher was telling us how she had to have a word with her because she keeps saying please and thank you and it just isn't necessary to be so polite. I've drummed it into her to be polite because that's what I was taught and what I do, but to natives here it just sounds odd. I don't think is exactly what the author of that article was trying to say, but the essence that we can be more successful if we stop thinking in our native language and more like the target language, with types of words, sentence structure, how and when we use them and the like, is, I think, good advice.

Also, as Alcaina has just said, phone apps and the online drills you are using are excellent to keep practising.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Helenameva said:


> At my daughter's parents evening the other day, the teacher was telling us how she had to have a word with her because she keeps saying please and thank you and it just isn't necessary to be so polite. I've drummed it into her to be polite because that's what I was taught and what I do, but to natives here it just sounds odd. I don't think is exactly what the author of that article was trying to say, but the essence that we can be more successful if we stop thinking in our native language and more like the target language, with types of words, sentence structure, how and when we use them and the like, is, I think, good advice.
> 
> Also, as Alcaina has just said, phone apps and the online drills you are using are excellent to keep practising.


I find that I no longer say "please" as much as I used to, but I do say "thank you."


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Helenameva said:


> At my daughter's parents evening the other day, the teacher was telling us how she had to have a word with her because she keeps saying please and thank you and it just isn't necessary to be so polite. I've drummed it into her to be polite because that's what I was taught and what I do, but to natives here it just sounds odd. I don't think is exactly what the author of that article was trying to say, but the essence that we can be more successful if we stop thinking in our native language and more like the target language, with types of words, sentence structure, how and when we use them and the like, is, I think, good advice.
> 
> Also, as Alcaina has just said, phone apps and the online drills you are using are excellent to keep practising.


Like I said, I think this is important, but it's not going to replace memorising and flashcards. That's my main point, and he claims this is the "secret" to replacing flashcards and memorising. It doesn't. Most things can be directly translated; otherwise we wouldn't have translation. 

Those are good examples of what he's talking about. Canadians also use please and thank you a lot. Another thing we often say is "I'm sorry" or just "sorry." That also doesn't translate here, where people will say pardon (perdon), but even that is not often. Rarely people say lo siento (I'm sorry). 

Another thing people don't say is "I love you" (te amo), and only rarely say a diluted version of it, "te quiero." Te quiero directly translated means "I want you," which doesn't really translate as I love you. In Canada, I would say I love you to my friends and family frequently. It's tough getting used to not saying it here.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, I used that site a lot in my lunch hour while I was still working in an office.


That's comforting to know that you advanced so well with that site. I have a classmate who used that site too with much success. I recently bought a swanky printer, so what I'm doing is printing out the lessons and putting together a binder. I'm highlighting and making notes.



Alcalaina said:


> That book, if it's the one I'm thinking of, is primarily a reference book. You don't need to read it cover to cover. These days, online drills and phone apps are much more useful but they weren't around when I started learning Spanish ten years ago!


It wasn't one particular book - but people showed me different ones that were all about 500 pages. That makes more sense, that it's used as a reference book. You're right, that online resources are just as good. They're easier to use too. I have the Word Reference app, which you and others on the forum recommended to me. They have a conjugator on there. This is also another good site for verb conjugation, which someone on the forum showed me last year:

Verbix verb conjugator


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

AllHeart said:


> Like I said, I think this is important, but it's not going to replace memorising and flashcards. That's my main point, and he claims this is the "secret" to replacing flashcards and memorising. It doesn't. Most things can be directly translated; otherwise we wouldn't have translation.
> 
> Those are good examples of what he's talking about. Canadians also use please and thank you a lot. Another thing we often say is "I'm sorry" or just "sorry." That also doesn't translate here, where people will say pardon (perdon), but even that is not often. Rarely people say lo siento (I'm sorry).
> 
> Another thing people don't say is "I love you" (te amo), and only rarely say a diluted version of it, "te quiero." Te quiero directly translated means "I want you," which doesn't really translate as I love you. In Canada, I would say I love you to my friends and family frequently. It's tough getting used to not saying it here.


Not everything is translatable, that's his point. I don't think he says it replaces flash cards either. Anyway, I guess you have found what works best for you. By the way, I did Duolingo a disservice in an earlier post, there is a lot of grammar and verb conjugation in it. It doesn't teach but it does give you the opportunity to practice, lots. I would recommend it.


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