# What is the trespassing laws in Spain?



## gollfer (May 23, 2011)

Does anyone have any experience or knowledge of the law on trespassing.

I have a bit of a worrying problem. I had a Spanish couple and there 11 year old son live in a small cottage at the back of my garden for free in return for taking care of my property whilst living in the UK. Part of the agreement was they cleaned the house during the summer each time i had holiday guests.

I am now selling my house and given the couple notice to leave by the 15th September. I am living in the UK and the man is now demanding 5000 euros from me to leave otherwise he is blackmailing me that he wont leave until i pay it

1, i am certain i have no legal obligation to pay him anything
2, surly spain has blackmail laws and this threat must be illegal? 
3, We never signed any rental agreement. I understand that his wife and child has now left the property.
4, Can i call the police and get them to escort me to the property and get the locks changed and have him removed from my property legally?

any advice would be very gratefully accepted


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

gollfer said:


> Does anyone have any experience or knowledge of the law on trespassing.
> 
> I have a bit of a worrying problem. I had a Spanish couple and there 11 year old son live in a small cottage at the back of my garden for free in return for taking care of my property whilst living in the UK. Part of the agreement was they cleaned the house during the summer each time i had holiday guests.
> 
> ...


You really need professional help with this, yes I am serious.
They are not trespassing as you invited them.
It is their place of abode so they will have rights.
Etc etc

Good luck & to be honest it may pay you to come to some kind of arrangement with him ?


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## gollfer (May 23, 2011)

thank you very much for your honest advice 
but i am sick of being ripped off in Spain forever having to cave into people in fear of threats of damage against me. I dont owe this money or legally entitled to pay it. 

I have read this from the penal code 

Chantaje:
Comete el delito de chantaje el que, con ánimo de conseguir un lucro o provecho, amenaza a otro con daños morales, físicos o patrimoniales, que afecten al amenazado o a persona física o moral con quien éste tuviera ligas de cualquier orden que lo determinen a protegerla.

it seems very clear this man is trying to blackmail me, which if true Spanish law is clear he risks 4 - 10 years prison for such a crime! 

I have offered to pay him 2000 but he greedily refuses this gesture, i think he is being unreasonable and unfair i have tried but he clearly smells weakness as i am english.


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

I see, in that case get on the offensive and go with a Spanish gestor/lawyer to let him know that if he does not take what you are offering then you will denounce him for blackmail etc.


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## davexf (Jan 26, 2009)

Hola

The laws for squatting are similar to England I believe - i.e. it is not easy to get squatters out. Professional advice is the only answer - anything else could mean YOU go to jail 

Davexf


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

gollfer said:


> Does anyone have any experience or knowledge of the law on trespassing.
> 
> I have a bit of a worrying problem. I had a Spanish couple and there 11 year old son live in a small cottage at the back of my garden for free in return for taking care of my property whilst living in the UK. Part of the agreement was they cleaned the house during the summer each time i had holiday guests.
> 
> ...


How long have the family lived in the house?? Do they have somewhere else to live? and is the compromising information that they have on you serious enough,( risk exposing) to claim blackmail???

Jo x


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

This isn't trespass. Did you enter into a verbal agreement to allow this family to occupy the cottage? Whether rent in cash is involved or not is irrelevant, I believe. This is now their home and if the matter goes to court a judge may be reluctant to grant immediate possession as children are involved.
Rental laws in Spain tend to favour tenants.
No way will the police intervene on your behalf as it is you who will be committing an offence by changing locks or cutting off utilities. 
It seems common practice to pay reluctant tenants off. A. Friend has done it twice recently.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

I'm curious as to what happened with the last family you had doing this for you - or is it the same family??


http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/79328-employment-law.html


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Surely the occupant's demand for money in returning for leaving what I assume to be his family home cannot be construed as 'blackmail? 
Following that route will be a waste of time.
Do you have reasonable relations with your tenant - for such he is? If so, try to persuade him he should leave and perhaps help him find suitable alternative accommodation?


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## gollfer (May 23, 2011)

Guys thanks for taking the time to comment its really appreciated

i think we are all agreed that i have no obligation legally to offer or give this demand of money.

but yet again it seems that people can behave illegally and use threats of trouble and normally get what they want. 

I am landlord in the UK and the notion that you would have to pay someone 5000 just to persuade them to leave a property is laughable.....but not in Spain it seems

I believe i have been more than generous in offering them 2000 which i have now increased to 3000 to help them re locate to a new property but they are simply refusing unless i give them 5000. They clearly know they are in the driving seat and in my book this is tantamount to blackmail

yes i could just cave in and pay it for an easy life, but what if they demanded 6000 or 10000 or 20000 where does it end? 

The women and child have already left the property but they are refusing to tell me where to.

The house will be sold on 20th hopefully. What would be there position then? would the new owner be able to have them frog marched off the premises by the police?


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Does the new owner know that they are in the property?

Honestly, you may not be able to sell the house if that is the case. That is one of the checks that all new buyers and their lawyers should make and if there is someone living in the house then I wouldn't buy it.
And if you sold the house without telling them then that could land you in hot water too.

I would take what correspondence you have to the police, you are right it's not right but who knows what is acceptable here. Don't mention you have offered them anything. Report them as squatters and say this is what they want to move out.
Failing that I would stake the place out, wait until it is empty if it ever is and reclaim your property.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

gollfer said:


> Guys thanks for taking the time to comment its really appreciated
> 
> *i think we are all agreed that i have no obligation legally to offer or give this demand of money.*
> 
> ...


From what you've said so far, I dont think its fair to say that no one thinks you should pay the money?? I want to know how long they've lived there as it should have a bearing on their rights and if they have somewhere to go, cos they have a child and ethically, its totally wrong to make them homeless. The woman and child maybe away, but if this is their home, they may want to return

So far, I personally dont see any reason to agree with what you say at all. But need to know more

Jo xxx


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## gollfer (May 23, 2011)

Pazcat

Yes the new buyer is fully aware. Dont worry i would not sell without having resolved this problem first. I am just asking the question what would be the law after selling, would the tenant have any rights with the new owner?

i am planning to fly out this weekend. One thing i have not told anyone on this forum is the property has a main house and the cottage at the back all shared on the same land. I am thinking of going out next week and changing the locks to the main house and front gate. But i suppose this would or could put me in breech of any tenancy laws i presume?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> I'm curious as to what happened with the last family you had doing this for you - or is it the same family??
> 
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/79328-employment-law.html


As my co mod asked, is this the same family you asked about in the above thread???

Jo xxx


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Ahh OK, if the seller is informed then that is much better.


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## gollfer (May 23, 2011)

jojo said:


> From what you've said so far, I dont think its fair to say that no one thinks you should pay the money?? I want to know how long they've lived there as it should have a bearing on their rights and if they have somewhere to go, cos they have a child and ethically, its totally wrong to make them homeless.
> 
> So far, I personally dont see any reason to agree with what you say at all. But need to know more
> 
> Jo xxx



Jo its good to get a fair opinion against me as it helps me to see both point of views

They have been with me three seasons.
I am selling the house....is that a crime?
If i am selling then sadly they have to leave. Its sad, but what can i do about that?
I have offered them 3000 this should be enough to help them get a removal van and pay 6 months rent @400pcm i believe this to be more than reasonable....yes/no?
why 5000? what if he demands 6000 or 10000? what would your opinion be then?
Do i legally have to pay them anything? what is the law in spain? i have been advised i have no obligation to pay them anything? agreed Jo?
Yes i have a moral obligation to pay them something which i am doing but it would have been nice if they showed some gratitude and not tried to demand more from me

Your value your opinion Jo


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## gollfer (May 23, 2011)

jojo said:


> As my co mod asked, is this the same family you asked about in the above thread???
> 
> Jo xxx


yes


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gollfer said:


> Pazcat
> 
> Yes the new buyer is fully aware. Dont worry i would not sell without having resolved this problem first. I am just asking the question what would be the law after selling, would the tenant have any rights with the new owner?
> 
> i am planning to fly out this weekend. One thing i have not told anyone on this forum is the property has a main house and the cottage at the back all shared on the same land. I am thinking of going out next week and changing the locks to the main house and front gate. But i suppose this would or could put me in breech of any tenancy laws i presume?


Yes it would. You could be arrested and made to pay reconnection fees. I agree it's unfair.

But the problem lies in the fact that there is nothing contractual between you and your tenant.
You say you are a landlord in the UK ..so was I and would never rent to anyone without a properly drawn up contract. 
I see from a previous thread you have experienced similar problems. You must be a very kind person to allow this family to move in after your previous experience.
I'm not sure but I think that in the worst case scenario your tenant can stay even with a new owner.
After years of being a landlord I sold the properties and am now a happy renter in Spain. Happy because we have a great landlord...but happy also because we have total protection under LAU even if he were to sell the house.
He too is a nice man but he was silly to allow us to write our five year contract. No way would we take advantage of him but many would.
As you know only too well.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gollfer said:


> Jo its good to get a fair opinion against me as it helps me to see both point of views
> 
> They have been with me three seasons.
> I am selling the house....is that a crime?
> ...


Imo you are behaving admirably and showing concern for this family. I think you may have been too trusting.
Having taught adolescents for many years I have become a sour old cynic who takes few people at face value. 
I hope you are tougher with your UK tenants


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

gollfer said:


> yes


ok - I'm not a lawyer - & you DO need proper legal advice

(what does the lawyer dealing with the sale transaction say on this btw?)


however....this is my take on it........ if they were paying tenants you wouldn't be able to evict them , written contract or no written contract - & them working in lieu of paying rent - which is what is effectively happening here - gives them rights


if they were (normal) paying tenants you would be in breach of contract - so it's not unreasonable for them to expect compensation


as to what is reasonable - enough for a deposit & first month rent IMO


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

gollfer said:


> yes


Eh? 

That thread was from 2011. There, you told us they burgled you and threatened you with legal action. You tell us they left the job. 

In this thread you tell us that the family trying to get money out of you has been with you for three years. Now you say it's the same family?


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## gollfer (May 23, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> Imo you are behaving admirably and showing concern for this family. I think you may have been too trusting.
> Having taught adolescents for many years I have become a sour old cynic who takes few people at face value.
> I hope you are tougher with your UK tenants


Thanks for your comments
Well thank god there seems to be someone out there thats on my side, i was starting to doubt myself!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

You invited them to stay there so they are not trespassing.

They don't have a rental contract so they are not tenants.

What you now have is uninvited house guests - i.e. squatters. Your only recourse IMO is to raise a denuncia to get them evicted. This might well cost more than the €5,000 they are asking for and would and cause a great deal more stress and bad feeling on all sides. And it might take years.

If I were in your position I'd take the easy route and pay them - but get a formal statement, witnessed by a lawyer or notary maybe, that they accept the arrangement and will not come back and ask for more.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> ok - I'm not a lawyer - & you DO need proper legal advice
> 
> (what does the lawyer dealing with the sale transaction say on this btw?)
> 
> ...




As tenants (as that's what they are), they have rights too. Did you offer the property to them first (to buy that is) - by law you have to.

If you change the locks or cut off utilities, then they can denounce you and you WILL be arrested!


It's a terrible situation which seems to have dragged on for over 3 years (if we can believe they are the same family). 

*NOTE TO ANYONE READING THIS*; make sure tenants have legally binding contracts. Had they had a proper contract, you could have got rid of them once they stopped paying (or stopped working for you as payment in lieu).


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## gollfer (May 23, 2011)

elenetxu said:


> Eh?
> 
> That thread was from 2011. There, you told us they burgled you and threatened you with legal action. You tell us they left the job.
> 
> In this thread you tell us that the family trying to get money out of you has been with you for three years. Now you say it's the same family?


If you dont mind i dont have the time to write a book about the past its a long long long story and i dont want to bore you. Its not relevant to this. Could we please just stick to the facts and to this post please thank you


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> As tenants (as that's what they are), they have rights too. *Did you offer the property to them first (to buy that is) - by law you have t*o.
> 
> If you change the locks or cut off utilities, then they can denounce you and you WILL be arrested!
> 
> ...


I forgot that bit!! Yes, they have the right of first refusal


if this is the same family then I do think what happened before is relevant tbh, unless it was sorted out amicably, as one hopes - but to have not put a proper agreement in place at that time, after those problems...................



no comment


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## gollfer (May 23, 2011)

I really appreciate everyones time and advice

your comments are overwhelming that i should pay, fair or not fair
thats what i will do based on your advice

i hope that my story will be of benefit to any other ignorant expat buyers in the future. Buyers beware!
Bye


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gollfer said:


> I really appreciate everyones time and advice
> 
> your comments are overwhelming that i should pay, fair or not fair
> thats what i will do based on your advice
> ...


I think that's the best course...but be very careful how you hand over this money.

Learn from this expensive lesson and be less casual about business deals in future!


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## gollfer (May 23, 2011)

how do you suggest i pay him

shoudl i demand a factura? and pay by bank transfer


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gollfer said:


> how do you suggest i pay him
> 
> shoudl i demand a factura? and pay by bank transfer


Hmm..that's a difficult one.
Perhaps wait until he has actually vacated the property, handed over keys, with you holding the cash in your hot little hand? I wouldn't hand over one red cent until I had secure possession of the property.
Maybe get him to sign something saying he is accepting the cash of his own free will in exchange for leaving?
What do others think?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Further to the above...once in the property, change the locks..pronto!!

Would you like to borrow my 54 kilo Rhodesian Ridgeback to ensure all goes well...we can travel, for a fee
And less than €5000


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

gollfer said:


> how do you suggest i pay him
> 
> shoudl i demand a factura? and pay by bank transfer


As I suggested earlier, do it in the presence of a witness (e.g. a notary) and get it authorised.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Maybe you could ask the police to attend to see that he doesn't subsequently denounce you for some (spurious) reason.

But yes, change the locks pronto - is there anyone, whom you trust, who could check on the place before it is sold?


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## gollfer (May 23, 2011)

there lies the problem

i have asked him for a proper factura and to pay him via bank transfer once he has vacated but he insists he wants cash before he leaves.....we are at stalemate!

i am not agreeing to illegally paying cash with no proof of paperwork, because he could come back later and deny i paid him anything!


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

gollfer said:


> there lies the problem
> 
> i have asked him for a proper factura and to pay him via bank transfer once he has vacated but he insists he wants cash before he leaves.....we are at stalemate!
> 
> i am not agreeing to illegally paying cash with no proof of paperwork, because he could come back later and deny i paid him anything!


I would pay him cash once he has vacated and once he has signed something to say he won't be back - and in the presence of an impartial witness.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

I don't know, but I think to have any legal status the document to be signed must be witnessed by a legal authority ie a notary, not just anyone, and that of course will also cost.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't know, but I think to have any legal status the document to be signed must be witnessed by a legal authority ie a notary, not just anyone, and that of course will also cost.


This is certainly NOT the case in UK but things might be different in Spain (they usually are )


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

gollfer said:


> there lies the problem
> 
> i have asked him for a proper factura and to pay him via bank transfer once he has vacated but he insists he wants cash before he leaves.....we are at stalemate!
> 
> i am not agreeing to illegally paying cash with no proof of paperwork, because he could come back later and deny i paid him anything!


Well I would arrive with a lawyer (assuming they know what you plan) and an assistant, real big ugly one & tell him as soon as you hand over the cash & sign the receipt he will leave immediately.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> This is certainly NOT the case in UK but things might be different in Spain (they usually are )


Like I say, I'm not sure, but given the twists and turns of this case I personally would get the document legalised in some way.
When we got married and were doing the paperwork beforehand a witness was needed at one point. Goodness knows why, can't remember now. Of course no one had told us this, and this was our umpteenth visit to the offices, so I of course said I'd just go out to the street and pull someone in. The civil servant told me that was not acceptable; it had to be someone we knew (On relfection I think this was a load of Bo**ocks, 'cos how can that be proved, but anyway...)

The end to the story is that I had tears quietly running down my face as this, as I said, was the umpteenth time we'd gone Madrid Bilbao to do this paperwork and we were running out of time. The woman then focussed on my husband's name and exclaimed
You wouldn't happen to be Mª Luisa's son, would you?
OH gritted his teeth and said "yes"
and she,with a beaming smile, said that she'd only be too glad to be our witness then.:madgrin::smile::loco:

Yes, paperwork is different in Spain:sad:


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

gollfer said:


> i have asked him for a proper factura


How can he bill you?
Is he registered as self employed?


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