# How likely is a UK family to be approved for a Long Stay Visitor Visa for France?



## emma_uk_visitor

My husband and I are hoping to move to Lille for a year while we have some work done on our house in London. We love France and are keen for our daughters, aged 8 and 6, to learn French. And of course to improve our own. 

*Does anyone know how likely UK citizens are to be approved for a French long stay visitor visa?*

This seems like the best option for us as we can both work remotely. However I am unsure about our prospects. Does the French government tend to approve these kinds of applications, or do you need a better reason than "to learn French"? Given Brexit / the Ukraine row I would understand if they were not as welcoming to Brits!

My second question is around education. *As visitors what are our chances of getting into schools?*

We are really interested in the European school in Lille, but it's free (and they seem to prioritise people working for the EU / big companies with a presence in France). Are we even eligible to apply? 

The private international school in Lille (Ecole Jeannine Manuel) also looks great but it costs 250 euros per child to apply! So again wondering if anyone knows the likelihood of getting a place further up the school - our kids would be going into Year 2 and Year 5 in UK schools. Also if it will count against us that we're only going to be around for a year... 

I will apply for all these things anyway but it would be brilliant to understand if I need to plan contingencies in case the visa or school applications are rejected,


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## Bevdeforges

It's not really a matter of being from the UK or being a family. What counts as far as getting a long stay visa (i.e. one for more than 90 days) is what your reason is for coming to live in France for whatever time period you envision being here.

For a "visitor" visa, the main thing is that you have adequate financial resources to fund your stay and, given that you are planning to only live in France for a year, that you are definitely committed to returning back home (wherever that is) so no temptation to try to pick up work "under the table." If your visa is approved, there should be no problem getting the kids into the local public school - just go talk to the mairie to find out what school is available for their respective ages. They might hold them back a year simply due to the language issue, but it should be a really rich experience for them anyhow. 

Take a long, hard look at what is required in terms of documentation for the type of visa you're going for. They will want you to have a place to stay, health cover for the year you'll be in France and whatever else appears on the relevant page for the type and duration of visa you're looking for. Start here: France-visas.gouv.fr | The official website for visa application to France though I think the UK now has a visa "agency" handling the application process.


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## emma_uk_visitor

That's so helpful, Bev! Thank you. We should have a place to stay (friends of friends have offered to rent us their house while they go away for a year) and can arrange health cover easily. Finances should be OK. 

I am really surprised that visitors are able to use public schools. That seems pretty cheeky given we have never paid tax in France. But very good to know.

Does anyone know about the EJM (international school in Lille)? I would like to have an idea of whether they tend to have places available before paying 500 euros to try my luck!


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## emma_uk_visitor

One followup question on health cover also... does this need to be in place before you make the application? What providers have others used?


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## Crabtree

You need private health care for your visa application covering all the family Google "Schengen Visa Health Insurance"
You say that you are going to work remotely Note that if you do then you will need to set up a French business entity pay french taxes and cotisations for pension health etc AND apply for a Visa that will allow you to work in France and not just be visitors


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## emma_uk_visitor

Crabtree said:


> You need private health care for your visa application covering all the family Google "Schengen Visa Health Insurance"
> You say that you are going to work remotely Note that if you do then you will need to set up a French business entity pay french taxes and cotisations for pension health etc AND apply for a Visa that will allow you to work in France and not just be visitors


Hm, OK thanks - do you know where I can find government info on this? That wasn't my understanding, as it seems like if you aren't working in France or for French clients they consider you a visitor for the year? But it's a bit confusing, I can't see how we get access to free education if we don't pay tax...


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## Bevdeforges

emma_uk_visitor said:


> as it seems like if you aren't working in France or for French clients they consider you a visitor for the year?


Don't confuse the "visitor" visa status with your work status or health care status. It's not like being a "tourist." On a "visitor" visa you are still considered resident in France and therefore need appropriate health cover. 

Also, you are considered to be working wherever you are physically located while doing whatever work you're being paid for. Where you are paid, in what currency or where your customers/clients are has no bearing on the situation. If you will be working while in France, then you are subject to French labor law and should be paying French social insurance and taxes. 

On the "free education" thing - don't forget that France gets more of its revenue from VAT than from personal income tax.


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## EuroTrash

Yes as said, if you are living in France, and working without commuting to another country to do the work, then you are deemed to be working in France. Where your clients are makes no difference; it's where you are and where the work gets done, that counts.
Before Brexit you could potentially have got round the need to register a business in France etc by using the "posted worker" scheme, which if approved by HMRC would have allowed you to continue paying NICs in the UK and retain your NHS cover whilst working temporarily in a different country, with your healthcare/social security covered in France via a worker's S1 issued by the UK. However I guess this route is no longer possible for Brits in practice, even if it is in theory (which I don't know, it might be an EU-only scheme), because of the issue of needing to apply for authorisation to work in the EU. Brits can't simply be posted/post themselves to work there any more. It might be worth looking into unless anybody knows for sure whether it's purely an EU scheme? although quite honestly I doubt that it would be compatible with needing work authorisation.
Les entreprises étrangères intervenant en France - Urssaf.fr might be relevant (or not)


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## ccm47

OP you need to read and digest this link Browse: Passports, travel and living abroad - GOV.UK.
As for sending the children to school this article explains the rules quite well: French homeschooling law from Summer 2022 | France home education despite its title.
Nobody living in the UK or in France is obliged to pay tax before their children receive an education from the state, and many don't!


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## emma_uk_visitor

Thanks everyone. This would have been a lot easier pre Brexit but we are where we are!


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## Crabtree

Do not give up though It requires a bit more thought and organisation You could search Setting up a business in France and you may well find people to help you set up before you arrive Or does your company offer a "sabbatical " scheme>


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## emma_uk_visitor

Crabtree said:


> Do not give up though It requires a bit more thought and organisation You could search Setting up a business in France and you may well find people to help you set up before you arrive Or does your company offer a "sabbatical " scheme>


Thanks for the encouragement - I think I'm just going to have a proper consultation with an immigration lawyer, I did make an enquiry and they seemed to think this Digital Nomad stuff (I work freelance / remotely for various clients) was a grey area. Sure it'll be OK in the end!


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## Bevdeforges

One small caveat here. The matter of immigration to France is a fairly straight-forward process. What I found (admittedly quite a few years back) is that "lawyering up" can cause more problems than it solves. Or at least it casts some suspicion on what your "real" motivation is for coming to France to live. (To get an idea, just take a look at the UK's rules and regulations for foreigners looking to live in the UK. Someone in a comparable position coming from France or another EU country would have some difficulty I suspect.)


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## Xyz789

EuroTrash said:


> Yes as said, if you are living in France, and working without commuting to another country to do the work, then you are deemed to be working in France. Where your clients are makes no difference; it's where you are and where the work gets done, that counts.
> Before Brexit you could potentially have got round the need to register a business in France etc by using the "posted worker" scheme, which if approved by HMRC would have allowed you to continue paying NICs in the UK and retain your NHS cover whilst working temporarily in a different country, with your healthcare/social security covered in France via a worker's S1 issued by the UK. However I guess this route is no longer possible for Brits in practice, even if it is in theory (which I don't know, it might be an EU-only scheme), because of the issue of needing to apply for authorisation to work in the EU. Brits can't simply be posted/post themselves to work there any more. It might be worth looking into unless anybody knows for sure whether it's purely an EU scheme? although quite honestly I doubt that it would be compatible with needing work authorisation.
> Les entreprises étrangères intervenant en France - Urssaf.fr might be relevant (or not)


You can still be posted to France and get an A1 form from HMRC after Brexit - HMRC have an application form and guidance pages. However I don't know how this works in practice where the person now needs a work visa for France (eg not EU national or spouse of French national etc)


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## BackinFrance

For those talking grey areas or thinking about using an immigration lawyer don't forget the French Presidential and legislative elections are both imminent and things won't be clear for at least several months.


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## Xyz789

emma_uk_visitor said:


> Thanks for the encouragement - I think I'm just going to have a proper consultation with an immigration lawyer, I did make an enquiry and they seemed to think this Digital Nomad stuff (I work freelance / remotely for various clients) was a grey area. Sure it'll be OK in the end!


I suggest getting advice from a firm of tax advisers or expert relocation consultants (some of these firms may give in house immigration advice if they have the expertise re: which category of visa and the paperwork required etc). Eg about where you pay your social security contributions, how the profits from your business/salary are taxed, where you are tax resident etc (and help completing the paperwork)... 

If you have Facebook those schools probably have a parents group and you could probably contact them with questions about the admissions process (if the school office can't answer your questions).


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## EuroTrash

Xyz789 said:


> However I don't know how this works in practice where the person now needs a work visa for France (eg not EU national or spouse of French national etc)


Well exactly, it is the work authorisation that is the sticking point, I don't think there is a way to bypass this.
This is a big issue for UK holiday companies/tour operators/ski companies etc, outfits like Eurocamp for instance, who used to post UK workers to work in EU resorts, and now they can't, they have to recruit local staff or find UK residents with EU passports. A lot of them have/are pulling out of the EU for this reason. If there was a way round it I'm sure they would have found it.


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## emma_uk_visitor

Xyz789 said:


> I suggest getting advice from a firm of tax advisers or expert relocation consultants (some of these firms may give in house immigration advice if they have the expertise re: which category of visa and the paperwork required etc). Eg about where you pay your social security contributions, how the profits from your business/salary are taxed, where you are tax resident etc (and help completing the paperwork)...
> 
> If you have Facebook those schools probably have a parents group and you could probably contact them with questions about the admissions process (if the school office can't answer your questions).


That'll be so sad if Eurocamp pull out! However they are actually doing business in France, which I would not be. 

This is what the immigration lawyer said: _As you mention that you would be working remotely, providing your work is not for the benefit of a company or client in France then you could apply for long stay visitor’s visas._

Thanks for the PTA tip, I have tried that.


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## EuroTrash

emma_uk_visitor said:


> That'll be so sad if Eurocamp pull out!.


I don't think Eurocamp will, they are well enough established in the EU to cope, but many smaller operators already have, including Canvas. I think the brand name is still being used by the group, but Canvas itself is no longer operating outside of the UK. The company I used to work for has closed its 5 French sites. Sad, as you say.


> This is what the immigration lawyer said: _As you mention that you would be working remotely, providing your work is not for the benefit of a company or client in France then you could apply for long stay visitor’s visas._


It will be interesting to know the outcome of this. Their advice goes directly against the usual interpretation. Maybe for a 1 year visa it is different?


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## Crabtree

I am sure the lawyer has told you that digital working is a grey area as that is how they make a living What is not a grey area will be the size of their bill or the size of the fine from the French Impots if you are discovered .Far quicker cheaper and better to set up a French company structure with advice from the french Chamber of commerce www.cci.fr or a company/individual specialing in this eg Business in France - Landing Page UK - Companow

or consider a portage salarial where an umbrella company is paid by the uk company who then pay it to you minus the necessary french taxes etc and of course their fee


https://www.freelanceinfrance.com/










Working under portage salarial | RIFT


Information about portage salarial arrangements and how they can facilitate remote working.




www.remaininfrance.fr




In the second example look at the remote working guide which clearly debunks remote working as "a grey area"


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## EuroTrash

Crabtree said:


> I am sure the lawyer has told you that digital working is a grey area as that is how they make a living What is not a grey area will be the size of their bill or the size of the fine from the French Impots if you are discovered .Far quicker cheaper and better to set up a French company structure with advice from the french Chamber of commerce www.cci.fr or a company/individual specialing in this eg Business in France - Landing Page UK - Companow
> 
> or consider a portage salarial where an umbrella company is paid by the uk company who then pay it to you minus the necessary french taxes etc and of course their fee
> 
> 
> https://www.freelanceinfrance.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Working under portage salarial | RIFT
> 
> 
> Information about portage salarial arrangements and how they can facilitate remote working.
> 
> 
> 
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> www.remaininfrance.fr
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> 
> 
> 
> In the second example look at the remote working guide which clearly debunks remote working as "a grey area"


But this is complicated by not having the automatic right to work in France, isn't it?
I have no idea where the work authorisation would come from if you work for a portage salarial company. Technically you are employed by them, and normally it's the employer that applies for work authorisation, but I can't see portage salarial companies getting involved in that. What am I missing here?
For self employment, as I understand it you need to make a detailed business plan first, then apply for the visa, and wait and see if you get it before you can come to France and start actually setting it all up.
Which when you're only coming for a year, basically hoping to chill out and enjoy the lifestyle and learn French, is going to add an awful lot of hassle to what was supposed to be a simple and seamless plan.


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## BackinFrance

EuroTrash said:


> I don't think Eurocamp will, they are well enough established in the EU to cope, but many smaller operators already have, including Canvas. I think the brand name is still being used by the group, but Canvas itself is no longer operating outside of the UK. The company I used to work for has closed its 5 French sites. Sad, as you say.
> 
> It will be interesting to know the outcome of this. Their advice goes directly against the usual interpretation. Maybe for a 1 year visa it is different?ewa


I think it has to do with applying for a non-renewable (tourist) visa of not more than one year.

The other issue is, of course, schooling given the huge shortage of teachers in the public system, which is not going to be fixed overnight and will be exacerbated by the arrival of Ukrainian refugees, who are of course highly deserving. So whilst it is true that the children would be entitled to attend a public school, it may very well not be in their best interests and an international school with a UK syllabus might be a better fit even though it would result in reduced immersion - but then the children could well lose the immersion benefit anyway when they return to the UK.


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## BackinFrance

EuroTrash said:


> But this is complicated by not having the automatic right to work in France, isn't it?
> I have no idea where the work authorisation would come from if you work for a portage salarial company. Technically you are employed by them, and normally it's the employer that applies for work authorisation, but I can't see portage salarial companies getting involved in that. What am I missing here?
> For self employment, as I understand it you need to make a detailed business plan first, then apply for the visa, and wait and see if you get it before you can come to France and start actually setting it all up.
> Which when you're only coming for a year, basically hoping to chill out and enjoy the lifestyle and learn French, is going to add an awful lot of hassle to what was supposed to be a simple and seamless plan.


The OP is in any case self employed and would with no business presence in France so it would not work anyway.


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## BackinFrance

BackinFrance said:


> The OP is in any case self employed and would with no business presence in France so it would not work anyway.


On second thoughts I think I am mistaken, nonetheless it is clearly not what the OP wants or intends to do and very likely not necessary for someone on a tourist visa that does not exceed one year and cannot be renewed. 
All of this may of course change in the future, but that is currently anyone's guess.


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## BackinFrance

Now we wait to see whether the visa is granted in light of the source of income.


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## emma_uk_visitor

Thanks everyone. My ideal would be to come on a visitor visa, get into the international school and pop home for the odd week to work for UK clients. If need be, we can take some time off (we can show resources to do this). 

But the whole process is pretty confusing and everyone seems to say something different so I've still no idea - see original question - if this is likely to be approved.

I'll let you know!


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## Crabtree

No one knows if it is likely to be approved frankly. France operates on the basis of subsidiarity which means that the officer that you have your interview with has a great deal of flexibility as to whether to grant a Visa or not


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## Tricky Dicky

Just how would anyone in France know if a person was working from their home in France - via the internet?


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## EuroTrash

emma_uk_visitor said:


> My ideal would be to come on a visitor visa, get into the international school and pop home for the odd week to work for UK clients. If need be, we can take some time off (we can show resources to do this).


Bear in mind that if you are tax resident in France for the year, you must declare worldwide income in France. That would include income from work carried out in the UK, and even though that would be taxable in the UK, you may still be liable for French social charges on foreign earned income, which I believe starts from the first euro earned..
Making yourself dual tax resident, when one of the tax authorities involved is HMRC, is not something you would want to do accidentally. Or at least having done it once, I would think and prepare carefully before doing it again.



Tricky Dicky said:


> Just how would anyone in France know if a person was working from their home in France - via the internet?


I think the issue is that you have to give details of your various income sources on your visa application? So in effect, you will tell them that (a) you work from home, and (b) that your home will be in France.


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## Tricky Dicky

My point was. If someone tells them they have no intention of working but then actually works from home via t’internet, how would anyone know?


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## BoilingFrog

I can see you're living up to your moniker. However, I think not dissimilar used to go on with UK chalet owners taking money in the UK for rentals and France authorities being none the wiser... until they cottoned on and were not trop impressed!


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## EuroTrash

Tricky Dicky said:


> My point was. If someone tells them they have no intention of working but then actually works from home via t’internet, how would anyone know?


Call me cynical but I think there would be a tendency to suspect that a person who runs a business in the UK, will continue running that business regardless of what they say their intentions are. It depends on the business of course but most businesses don't survive being mothballed for a year because clients go elsewhere. So unless the person is of an age/in a position to stop work permanently or is planning a career change, or it's a business that would survive stop/start with no ill effects, it would be assumed that a person would not normally simply abandon the business that provides their bread and butter.
The question is more, whether "they" would turn a blind eye or not, and I guess it depends by who you mean by "they".
If "they" are the fisc, it really isn't difficult for them to prove that a person has been working in France. A tax inspector can request (ie demand) sight of all kinds of documents and easily can check what services the person has provided and invoiced for on what dates, look at the dates on emails the person has sent and received, and check those dates against the dates the person was in France.
But it seems highly improbable that the fisc would be interested in the holder of a one year visitor visa, they tend to go for people who have been doing this systematically over a number of years, so for the purposes of this thread the issue is not what happens after the visa is granted if it is, the issue is, whether the visa will be granted in the first place.


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## Tricky Dicky

BoilingFrog said:


> I can see you're living up to your moniker. However, I think not dissimilar used to go on with UK chalet owners taking money in the UK for rentals and France authorities being none the wiser... until they cottoned on and were not trop impressed!


Just to be clear. I am retired, do not work and have no intention of doing so. I was just asking how the French authorities can police whether someone works remotely from a home in France for someone outside of France. My son lives here in Greece. He has his own consultancy business. With the advent of Covid he has worked entirely from Greece for UK clients with meetings conducted via Zoom. He gets paid into his UK bank account. If that scenario was replicated in France how on earth would anyone know.


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## Bevdeforges

Tricky Dicky said:


> I was just asking how the French authorities can police whether someone works remotely from a home in France for someone outside of France. My son lives here in Greece. He has his own consultancy business. With the advent of Covid he has worked entirely from Greece for UK clients with meetings conducted via Zoom. He gets paid into his UK bank account. If that scenario was replicated in France how on earth would anyone know.


It depends on lots of things - including how long this has been going on, how much money is at stake and where in the "integration" process the person is. 

For a family staying for a single year in France and then returning back home, they can probably get away with it (as long as they have "adequate financial resources" from some other source to support their visa applications and the related health care insurance cover). 

Now, if there are substantial transfers of funds coming on a regular basis from the UK to the French bank account, that could raise questions. And it would probably come up if said family "changed their minds" and went to renew their one year visa to stay longer - again, in connection with the financial resources question and health insurance.

The French like subtlety and it shows when you look at how they (oh so subtly) "enforce" some of their trickier laws and regulations.


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## Crabtree

A bank has an obligation to report activity to the appropriate tax authority So if amounts are going into a bank account in one country that could well reported to the persons "home" tax authority or nosy neighbours the postman etc


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## EuroTrash

Tricky Dicky said:


> I was just asking how the French authorities can police whether someone works remotely from a home in France for someone outside of France.


I think you are asking the wrong question. It is not a matter of how, it is a matter of, do they want to.
Everyone leaves traces of where they go and what they do. Your bank statement will show where you shop, buy petrol etc so it is easy to see where you were, if anyone wants to know. You declare your income (or should). So if you have spent the entire year in France and you have declared an earned income, it does not take a genius to deduce that you earned your income whilst in France.
The French authorities would only check if it comes to their attention, or if the person happens to be chosen for a spot check. I have no idea how many checks the Greek authorities do.


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## Tricky Dicky

I can tell you. Zero! We have, or I should say had, a small rental property on Airbnb. I declared all the income and paid up my 15% tax. If I had chosen not to nobody would have been the wiser.


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## EuroTrash

Tricky Dicky said:


> I can tell you. Zero! We have, or I should say had, a small rental property on Airbnb. I declared all the income and paid up my 15% tax. If I had chosen not to nobody would have been the wiser.


Well I'm sure each country's tax authority is different - more or less rigorous, more or less joined-up, more tolerant of one thing and less tolerant of another, more or less quick to act when they do start taking an interest.
France seems to be slow burn where it suspects significant tax fraud is happening. It patiently collects information and builds up a dossier over many years, and the taxpayer is completely unaware they are being watched until out of the blue they receive a very long letter in which the fisc set out their allegations in great detail along with supporting evidence. The letter might be timed to coincide with an early morning visit from the tax officers accompanied by a gendarme requesting access to computer and/or paper records, and the tax officials might take a copy of the hard disk away with him.
I say this having in the past done a few jobs that consisted of translating legal documents for English companies operating in France who had had the pleasure such a letter and apparently such a visit. (It is good work for a translator because translators get paid per word and the letters quote very long chunks of the French tax code and what is even better they tend to quote the same chunks every time.) 
I have no idea how often this happens, just that it does sometimes.
But I can't remotely imagine that they go to all that trouble for one airbnb rental.


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## emma_uk_visitor

One final post - with thanks for all your input. 

*We were granted long-stay visitor visas for one year.*

So I guess the answer to my original question is that UK citizens can get these visas, and you can get a school place if you're willing to pay!

The visa agency who helped us seemed to think that the really important thing was being able to show a place to live, and a school place for the kids. Very difficult to get those things without a visa, but we are lucky and were renting through friends, and got into the international school.

The digital nomad thing is a grey area but they've approved us knowing that my husband will be working outside France. (In the end because I'm doing a Masters degree we just showed details of that and my savings.)

Good luck to anyone applying for theirs - it's been stressful and expensive but I'm relieved to have the visas at last.


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