# Anyone oilfield workers in Spain?



## Snozzle12 (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm thinking of moving to Spain and taking advantage of the residency rules so I don't have to pay Spanish income tax on my foreign earnings.

Anyone got any advice?

I'd probably just rent for the time being, maybe Barcelona or Alicante, need to be near a major airport.

Biggest think would be doing enough to satisfy HMRC that I'm no longer a UK resident for tax purposes. On this issue I probably need professional advice.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Snozzle12 said:


> *I'm thinking of moving to Spain and taking advantage of the residency rules so I don't have to pay Spanish income tax on my foreign earnings.*
> 
> Anyone got any advice?
> 
> ...


Which residency rules are those?


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

... surely you will have to pay tax somewhere?

Where will you expect to get health care or will it be private?


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## Snozzle12 (Aug 13, 2013)

Chopera said:


> Which residency rules are those?


Less than 183 days in Spain and you don't pay Spanish income tax on foreign earnings.


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## Snozzle12 (Aug 13, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> ... surely you will have to pay tax somewhere?
> 
> Where will you expect to get health care or will it be private?


I fully intend to pay Spanish income tax on my Spanish income.

Not my fault it will be 0 euros!


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Snozzle12 said:


> Less than 183 days in Spain and you don't pay Spanish income tax on foreign earnings.


But it's not as simple as that. You need to be able to show where your 'centre of interest' is. That is, where are your family and where is your main residence?

You are correct, ONE of the rules is the number of days but there are more factors which determine where you MUST pay tax.


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## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

You won't have to pay Spanish income tax on your worldwide income if you spend less than 183 days in Spain. & can prove it is not your 'centre of business' ie own a home there &/or have your wife &/or dependant children living there for in excess of 183 days per tax year. 

Those 183 days do not have to run consecutively so you would have to keep a check of you comings and goings (I am guessing you work rotation?). & if you have a wife or dependant children that would be inconsequential as it would depend on how many days they lived in Spain.

On the 184th you automatically become a Spanish resident for tax purposes & will be taxed heavily (& I mean heavily) on you world wide income.

That being said.......................Spain does have double taxation treaties with many countries so it would depend on whether you were paying tax locally where you are working & if that country was covered by the taxation agreement then you would only pay tax once.

But you have to pay tax somewhere!

(We currently will be paying income tax twice on the same income in 2 different countries. Not what we planned, bad luck got us in this brief predicament! Hubby is Offshore at the minute).

My hubby hasn't been a resident in the UK for tax purposes for about 15 years. We have a UK expat tax consultant who deals with the HMRC on our behalf.

He has been in the oil/gas & shipbuilding industry for a very very long time.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Snozzle12 said:


> I fully intend to pay Spanish income tax on my Spanish income.
> 
> Not my fault it will be 0 euros!


As Angil has stated, it's not *Spanish *income that's important but *worldwide *income - so you will have to pay Spanish tax (I suspect).


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## Snozzle12 (Aug 13, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> But it's not as simple as that. You need to be able to show where your 'centre of interest' is. That is, where are your family and where is your main residence?
> 
> You are correct, ONE of the rules is the number of days but there are more factors which determine where you MUST pay tax.


For the UK yes, you need to pass the statuary residence test to be classed as non-resident.

AFAIK Spain just applies a 183 day rule.


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## Snozzle12 (Aug 13, 2013)

angil said:


> You won't have to pay Spanish income tax on your worldwide income if you spend less than 183 days in Spain. & can prove it is not your 'centre of business' ie own a home there &/or have your wife &/or dependant children living there for in excess of 183 days per tax year.
> 
> Those 183 days do not have to run consecutively so you would have to keep a check of you comings and goings (I am guessing you work rotation?). & if you have a wife or dependant children that would be inconsequential as it would depend on how many days they lived in Spain.
> 
> ...


Yes I rotate correct. I have no dependents or wife, and I don't own a Spanish home so can't see why I would not count as non resident for tax purposes in Spain so long as I keep below 183 days.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Snozzle12 said:


> For the UK yes, you need to pass the statuary residence test to be classed as non-resident.
> 
> AFAIK Spain just applies a 183 day rule.


As stated previously, this is not the only thing that matters. There are SEVERAL factors.

If your main residence (could be rented) is in Spain, then you must pay tax here.


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## Snozzle12 (Aug 13, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> If your main residence (could be rented) is in Spain, then you must pay tax here.


Where does it say that?

Lowtax.net says this about Spain.



> Individuals are deemed to be resident for tax purposes if they are resident in Spain for more than 183 days in a calendar year or if their business interests are based in Spain. Resident individuals are taxed on their worldwide income; non-residents are taxed on their Spanish-source income only.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

The rules are;



> Residency criteria in Spain
> 
> You will become resident for tax purposes in Spain if:
> 
> ...


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## Snozzle12 (Aug 13, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> The rules are;


I don't think that renting a flat would constitute a 'centre of vital interests'.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Snozzle12 said:


> Less than 183 days in Spain and you don't pay Spanish income tax on foreign earnings.


OK - those are more non-residency rules than residency rules though. i.e. rules that don't apply to Spanish residents.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Snozzle12 said:


> I fully intend to pay Spanish income tax on my Spanish income.
> 
> Not my fault it will be 0 euros!


Spanish income?

I think what you are trying to become is a "tax resident of nowhere", by not spending enough time in any particular country to become a tax resident there.

You might be able to do it - but you'll probably need to have to open an offshore account somewhere and have your salary paid into that. You may then have problems moving that money onshore whenever you decide to become resident somewhere.

Either way, it's beyond the scope of a Spanish forum really - if you spend less than 180 days in Spain and have no Spanish bank account with income regularly being paid into it, then yes, I believe that as as far as the Spanish authorities are concerned you're on holiday.


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

Snozzle12 said:


> I don't think that renting a flat would constitute a 'centre of vital interests'.


Yes, a long term lease would go a long way to proving you are a Spanish resident, along with other factors. - a bank account, phone, elect, gas, mobile and broadband bills, car, car insurance, contents insurance, etc.

If your centre of interest is not in Spain, then it will be the UK- you won't not be counted as resident.

You are obliged to register for your NIE and residencia in Spain no later than 90 days after your arrival. To do this you will have to prove you have income and healthcare- so that's you in the system, already, though you may well still be UK tax resident for the first part year. Then you have to sign on the padron and register for social security payments...,,

Without these papers you will find it hard to sign up for most of the insurance, utilities, etc and you won't have access to healthcare either. You'll not have access to healthcare in the Uk or Spain because you're not contributing in either.......

Forget the 183 day part. In effect you are taking it far too literally by reading it in isolation. You will be classed as tax resident in one country or another and will have to pay tax on your earnings according to the laws of that country- in Spain that means you pay tax on worldwide income.

You'd do well to get proper professional advice because there's a fair chance you will actually pay more tax in Spain.

Don't get me wrong, you might be able to pull it off for a while but sooner or later the authorities would catch up with you and you'd face huge fines and arrears. Spain is skint, they're not in the business of letting anyone avoid paying as much as they can possibly get.


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## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

I got everything incl an apt, health insurance, bank accounts and school places for my kids minus an NIE number.

If the OP enters Spain less than 183days in any given tax year he will not be classed as a tax resident. But a long term lease could be used to argue the fact that Spain has become his centre of interest (or whatever you call it!).

He is not obligated to apply for an NIE number unless he spends a full 3 months continuously in the country. I believe that is correct?

My concern would be he needs to keep things straight with the HMRC in the UK.

& my question would be to the OP "are you sure your employer isn't paying local income tax on your behalf?" 

You really do need to be paying tax somewhere. 

As for residency well....................we have certainly found ourselves betwixt and between quite recently. A comical situation actually! We have be non resident in the UK for years and year for tax purposes. & before we had Spanish residency we were residents nowhere! (I had an Alien Registration Card in Korea before that, not sure what that made me!).


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

angil said:


> I got everything incl an apt, health insurance, bank accounts and school places for my kids minus an NIE number.
> 
> If the OP enters Spain less than 183days in any given tax year he will not be classed as a tax resident. But a long term lease could be used to argue the fact that Spain has become his centre of interest (or whatever you call it!).
> 
> ...


,,,,,,obviously you were an alien......and surely you don't have to pay tax on Mars!


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

Deleting double post.....


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## Snozzle12 (Aug 13, 2013)

brocher said:


> Yes, a long term lease would go a long way to proving you are a Spanish resident, along with other factors. - a bank account, phone, elect, gas, mobile and broadband bills, car, car insurance, contents insurance, etc.
> 
> If your centre of interest is not in Spain, then it will be the UK- you won't not be counted as resident.
> 
> ...


No offense but I think you just made a lot of that up. 

The 'center of economic interest' rule is design to catch people who own businesses in Spain.

Non-resident for tax purposes doesn't make you are non-resident per se.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Snozzle12 said:


> No offense but I think you just made a lot of that up
> 
> The 'center of economic interest' rule is design to catch people who own businesses in Spain.
> 
> Non-resident for tax purposes doesn't make you are non-resident per se.


So how do you think it works????? What are your expectations?

Jo xxx


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

You've asked all of this before, got the same answers and told us we were "making it up" - nowts changed has it??

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...s-spain-legally-registered-3.html#post1583713

In the end, you have to pay tax somewhere and its best to pay it where you live

Jo xxx


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

jojo said:


> You've asked all of this before, got the same answers and told us we were "making it up" - nowts changed has it??
> 
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...s-spain-legally-registered-3.html#post1583713
> 
> ...


Well spotted, Jo. I can't believe the OP still hasn't gone and paid for a little professional advice by now......or maybe he didn't believe then either. 

Pretty simple really, if he'd paid for professional advice that proved us all wrong, the OP would be back here now telling us how it really works..,. Instead go he's still grasping at straws.....


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Just an aside, but under nearly all the tax treaties I know, the 183 day rule is just a "guideline." If you don't spend 183 days in any country, they usually fall back on whichever country you spend more time than any other.

And, renting a place to live definitely counts toward determining your center of interest.

But, hey, you plays the game, you takes your chances. It's when they catch up with you that the real headaches start.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Snozzle12 said:


> No offense but I think you just made a lot of that up.
> 
> The 'center of economic interest' rule is design to catch people who own businesses in Spain.
> 
> Non-resident for tax purposes doesn't make you are non-resident per se.


If you really want to know the answer to tax related problems you don't go on a forum and ask unqualified people and then tell the people that they're making it up!. You go to the tax offices in the country concerned. 
Here you go, in English in case you don't speak Spanish.
Tax Agency - Home

Inicio: Ministerio de Hacienda y Administraciones Públicas

HM Revenue & Customs: Home Page

https://www.gov.uk/living-in-spain#taxation


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## Snozzle12 (Aug 13, 2013)

Bevdeforges said:


> Just an aside, but under nearly all the tax treaties I know, the 183 day rule is just a "guideline." If you don't spend 183 days in any country, *they *usually fall back on whichever country you spend more time than any other.
> 
> And, renting a place to live definitely counts toward determining your center of interest.
> 
> ...


Who is 'they'?

The world authority of making people pay tax somewhere?

183 days isn't a 'guideline' it is part of an either/or condition.



> 1. RESIDENCE
> The way in which individuals and bodies corporate
> pay tax in Spain varies depending on whether or
> not they are residents of Spain.
> ...


Call it 'centre of economic interest' or 'central place of business' or whatever. I don't see how renting a place to live counts as that if you work is overseas.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Snozzle12 said:


> Who is 'they'?
> 
> The world authority of making people pay tax somewhere?
> 
> ...



Go and seek profession advice! From what I can see, you just dont want to pay tax - well, its illegal not to and quite frankly, those of us who do, cant/dont want to help you

Jo xxx


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

jojo said:


> Go and seek profession advice! From what I can see, you just dont want to pay tax - well, its illegal not to and quite frankly, those of us who do, cant/dont want to help you
> 
> Jo xxx


To be fair, nobody wants to pay tax and he wants to make sure he isn't legally obliged to pay tax in Spain. As you, I and others have already mentioned on this thread, there are two issues: not paying tax in Spain and not paying tax anywhere. The standard rules for not paying tax in Spain are quite straight forward and have been discussed. The issue of not paying tax anywhere is way beyond our area of knowledge - as you say the op needs to speak to an expert on this. Being smug about not paying tax doesn't help his cause but it doesn't necessarily make what he's trying to do illegal.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Chopera said:


> To be fair, nobody wants to pay tax and he wants to make sure he isn't legally obliged to pay tax in Spain. As you, I and others have already mentioned on this thread, there are two issues: not paying tax in Spain and not paying tax anywhere. The standard rules for not paying tax in Spain are quite straight forward and have been discussed. The issue of not paying tax anywhere is way beyond our area of knowledge - as you say the op needs to speak to an expert on this. Being smug about not paying tax doesn't help his cause but it doesn't necessarily make what he's trying to do illegal.


It reads to me that he doesnt want to pay tax in Spain, nor in the UK according to his initial post - of which the last sentence says this


> Biggest think would be doing enough to satisfy HMRC that I'm no longer a UK resident for tax purposes. On this issue I probably need professional advice.


Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Chopera said:


> To be fair, nobody wants to pay tax and he wants to make sure he isn't legally obliged to pay tax in Spain. As you, I and others have already mentioned on this thread, there are two issues: not paying tax in Spain and not paying tax anywhere. The standard rules for not paying tax in Spain are quite straight forward and have been discussed. The issue of not paying tax anywhere is way beyond our area of knowledge - as you say the op needs to speak to an expert on this. Being smug about not paying tax doesn't help his cause but it doesn't necessarily make what he's trying to do illegal.


I don't mind paying tax. I pay tax and I receive a lot back in doing so.
What I *do* object to is 


paying an inflated amount,
paying for things I don't have (been charged road tax on a car that was scrapped last year),
politicians making off with my money
paying when other people, who are enjoying the same benefits, are not


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't mind paying tax. I pay tax and I receive a lot back in doing so.
> What I *do* object to is
> 
> 
> ...


But if you had the choice of legally paying the tax you pay now and legally not paying any tax, which would you choose? Would you voluntarily pay more tax even though you are in no way legally obliged to?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't mind paying tax. I pay tax and I receive a lot back in doing so.
> What I *do* object to is
> 
> 
> ...


Assuming that those who want to enjoy life in Spain but not pay taxes won't register on the padron either, let's hope:

they never use Spanish roads
they never walk on a pavement
they never walk where there are street lights
they never get involved in an accident and need an ambulance
their house never catches fire and they need los bomberos
they are never robbed or assaulted and need the police
they never sit on a bench in a public park
they never use a public loo
they never use publicly-funded transport
and many similar amenities

because if they do...

PW, I and everyone who contributes towards the Spanish Exchequeur is paying their share.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Chopera said:


> But if you had the choice of legally paying the tax you pay now and legally not paying any tax, which would you choose? Would you voluntarily pay more tax even though you are in no way legally obliged to?


If you dont pay your due taxes it is a civil offence. But anyone with a brain can see that if no one pays any tax then they'd be nothing, so its not a matter of whether you "want" to pay - its simply the correct thing to do and if people dont want to pay, then dont bother earning money - then you wont have to pay any lol - or go live in a country that doesnt ask for any

Jo xxx


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

jojo said:


> If you dont pay your due taxes it is a civil offence. But anyone with a brain can see that if no one pays any tax then they'd be nothing, so its not a matter of whether you "want" to pay - its simply the correct thing to do and if people dont want to pay, then dont bother earning money - then you wont have to pay any lol - or go live in a country that doesnt ask for any
> 
> Jo xxx


It's a matter of law, and you are suggesting that people should voluntarily pay more tax than they are legally obliged to because "it's the correct thing to do". I'm sorry but I don't believe you are anyone else on this thread has ever voluntarily paid more tax than they are legally obliged to.

In the case of international oil rig workers (I was one myself once, many years ago) you don't use any state provided services at all for most of the time. No street lights, no buses, no public benches, no public loos, nothing on mrypg9's list at all because you are living on a rig. In a metal cabin with everything paid for by your employer. You live like that for most of the year, get paid lots of money and in your time off you go wherever you like - making sure you don't stay anywhere long enough to become a tax resident. It is one of the benefits of that type of work, and anyone can apply to do it.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Chopera said:


> It's a matter of law, and you are suggesting that people should voluntarily pay more tax than they are legally obliged to because "it's the correct thing to do". I'm sorry but I don't believe you are anyone else on this thread has ever voluntarily paid more tax than they are legally obliged to.
> 
> In the case of international oil rig workers (I was one myself once, many years ago) you don't use any state provided services at all for most of the time. No street lights, no buses, no public benches, no public loos, nothing on mrypg9's list at all because you are living on a rig. In a metal cabin with everything paid for by your employer. You live like that for most of the year, get paid lots of money and in your time off you go wherever you like - making sure you don't stay anywhere long enough to become a tax resident. It is one of the benefits of that type of work, and anyone can apply to do it.


..... as long as on your days off, you stay in your metal cabin and dont venture onto any roads, footpaths or any of the other things on MRYPG9s list - then fine. Just let the oil rig company take your rent - or live in the real world, but pay for it. Theres the choice.

We pay taxes, no of course no one wants to - but we do and to have someone come onto the forum, ask questions and then tell us we're making things up, simply because they dont want to pay taxes isnt going to get a good response. If they want to know how to dodge tax, then we cant help! If they want to know how things are done, then we can!

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Chopera said:


> But if you had the choice of legally paying the tax you pay now and legally not paying any tax, which would you choose? Would you voluntarily pay more tax even though you are in no way legally obliged to?


That is a false choice, isn't it..
Someone has to pay fot the services we all use and I have no objection to paying my fair share towards them.
Do I like paying taxes? Is the Pope Catholic??? But whether as a business or as privste individuals we have both always paid every cent due.
Had a good moan about it, true, but paid our dues.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Chopera said:


> It's a matter of law, and you are suggesting that people should voluntarily pay more tax than they are legally obliged to because "it's the correct thing to do". I'm sorry but I don't believe you are anyone else on this thread has ever voluntarily paid more tax than they are legally obliged to.
> 
> In the case of international oil rig workers (I was one myself once, many years ago) you don't use any state provided services at all for most of the time. No street lights, no buses, no public benches, no public loos, nothing on mrypg9's list at all because you are living on a rig. In a metal cabin with everything paid for by your employer. You live like that for most of the year, get paid lots of money and in your time off you go wherever you like - making sure you don't stay anywhere long enough to become a tax resident. It is one of the benefits of that type of work, and anyone can apply to do it.


So you are saying that some workers live outside of civil society..
Frankly, the effort involved in dodging tax is probably not worth the money saved for the average worker in those kinds of industries. If you have a family or even if you don't, most people want a settled existence, somewhere they can call home, surely...


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

The vast majority of us also received our education courtesy of other people's taxes, so as far as I'm concerned we have a responsibility to put that back and pay for other people's children to be educated, even if we have no children of our own (as I don't). I wouldn't want to live in the kind of society where services were only available to those who can afford to pay directly for only what they consume personally - in fact I don't even believe that's possible. If we want a "civilised" society with educated and healthy citizens and decent infrastructure, it has to be paid for.

I watched Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall's recent "Scandimania" programmes recently and was so impressed by the Danish, Norwegian and Swedish people featured, and their pragmatic attitude towards the high taxes they pay.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

jojo said:


> ..... as long as on your days off, you stay in your metal cabin and dont venture onto any roads, footpaths or any of the other things on MRYPG9s list - then fine. Just let the oil rig company take your rent - or live in the real world, but pay for it. Theres the choice.
> 
> We pay taxes, no of course no one wants to - but we do and to have someone come onto the forum, ask questions and then tell us we're making things up, simply because they dont want to pay taxes isnt going to get a good response. If they want to know how to dodge tax, then we cant help! If they want to know how things are done, then we can!
> 
> Jo xxx


So when you go on holiday abroad for a few weeks, and inevitably use all the services provided by that couintry, do you pop over to the local tax office and hand over a wad of cash, saying "thanks for the use of the street lighting, etc"?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Chopera said:


> So when you go on holiday abroad for a few weeks, and inevitably use all the services provided by that couintry, do you pop over to the local tax office and hand over a wad of cash, saying "thanks for the use of the street lighting, etc"?


When I lived and worked in Spain, I paid my taxes. I'm sure if the OP wants to go on holiday for two weeks in the costa del sol, no one would mind him not paying his taxes.

This is a silly argument. Take it from me, if everyone had that attitude - no taxes would be paid and we'd all be living in the stone age again. 

No one is going to say to this guy, hey we all pay our taxes, but we dont mind if you dont, so we'll help you to become a tax evader - cos you're "special"

In the end if he doesnt want to pay taxes then he should give up work!

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Chopera said:


> But if you had the choice of legally paying the tax you pay now and legally not paying any tax, which would you choose? Would you voluntarily pay more tax even though you are in no way legally obliged to?


I've been thinking about this whilst doing the ironing and I have decided that the answer is 'Yes' to both questions, but under certain limitations.
As things stand I object to paying taxes for illegal foreign wars, endless reorganisations of the NHS, PFI payments, bloated expenses for MPs and some Civil Servants, posh wallpaper and furniture and such like for Ministers' offices, the Civil List, overseas aid to countries like India and Pakistan that have space programmes and countries like Uganda that persecute gay and lesbian people.

But..if I knew that my taxes would go to funding a decent National Health Service, better schools for all, dignified care for elderly people, research into diseases such as Alzheimers and cancer, aid to those poor countries that really need it....then yes, I would.

Those who opted not to could have restricted access to services provided and resort to private education and care when sick and old.
Mind you, they'd soon find that paying for these services would cost much more than a modest extra tax precept. Anyone who has paid for private dental care or health care beyond a simple filling or headache pill will know that.
We must have, between the two of us, spent over £10k on dental care alone in the past six years. I shudder to think what my partner spent to have skin melanomas dealt with privately.
Dental care you pay for or more or less go without, in Spain or the UK. Health care is another matter. I qualify for free Spanish health care, at the time when she needed it, OH didn't, hence private care.
We're lucky, We're retired, we have no dependents, we could afford these 'luxuries'. But we would have been happier to have contributed along with millions of others via taxes to have access to these things because collective provision is always less expensive.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> So you are saying that some workers live outside of civil society..
> Frankly, the effort involved in dodging tax is probably not worth the money saved for the average worker in those kinds of industries. If you have a family or even if you don't, most people want a settled existence, somewhere they can call home, surely...


It's not dodging tax if it's legal. And it's not living outside of civil society just because you don't like it, or if it doesn't fit in with your particular view of how society should work.

Most people don't particularly go out of their way to do it either - it almost happens by accident. When I worked in the oil industry I found myself in that position - I wasn't a tax resident anywhere. I spent a few months in Canada, followed by Pakistan, then Libya, trhen the UK, with several breaks inbetween. To get round this common problem the company I worked for took money out of my salary and used it to pay the tax of other employees, so we effectively had a flat tax scheme run across the company. The company acted like a proxy for the inland revenue. 

But that just happened to be how the company I worked for ran things. Many others just didn't pay tax at all. Of course it's not a lifestyle that most people can maintain that long, most people do it for a few years to save up some money. Then they move back onshore, become resident somewhere and start paying tax in the usual way.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Chopera said:


> So when you go on holiday abroad for a few weeks, and inevitably use all the services provided by that couintry, do you pop over to the local tax office and hand over a wad of cash, saying "thanks for the use of the street lighting, etc"?


You don't need to, they collect it from all the tax you pay on hotels, petrol, drinks, restaurant meals, etc etc. At least 20% of what you spend goes to the government, which should more than cover the wear and tear on pavements.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Chopera said:


> So when you go on holiday abroad for a few weeks, and inevitably use all the services provided by that couintry, do you pop over to the local tax office and hand over a wad of cash, saying "thanks for the use of the street lighting, etc"?


No because you use local businesses which via their taxed profit contribute to the cost of these things, just as foreigners who visit the UK do when they sleep in hotels, patronise restaurants, buy in shops.
It's called reciprocity.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> You don't need to, they collect it from all the tax you pay on hotels, petrol, drinks, restaurant meals, etc etc. At least 20% of what you spend goes to the government, which should more than cover the wear and tear on pavements.


Beat me to it


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Chopera said:


> It's not dodging tax if it's legal. And it's not living outside of civil society just because you don't like it, or if it doesn't fit in with your particular view of how society should work.
> 
> Most people don't particularly go out of their way to do it either - it almost happens by accident. When I worked in the oil industry I found myself in that position - I wasn't a tax resident anywhere. I spent a few months in Canada, followed by Pakistan, then Libya, trhen the UK, with several breaks inbetween. To get round this common problem the company I worked for took money out of my salary and used it to pay the tax of other employees, so we effectively had a flat tax scheme run across the company. The company acted like a proxy for the inland revenue.
> 
> But that just happened to be how the company I worked for ran things. Many others just didn't pay tax at all. Of course it's not a lifestyle that most people can maintain that long, most people do it for a few years to save up some money. Then they move back onshore, become resident somewhere and start paying tax in the usual way.



I agree. People can find them selves in that position through unsought circumstances. And yes, you're right, it's not a lifestyle that any sane person can maintain for long.
My dil worked abroad, in a low-tax regime, and saved enough to buy a mews house in Pimlico. But she paid the taxes required, minimal though they were. She didn't truy to dodge them.
But that is different from someone who has given the impression that his sole aim is to avoid tax anywhere and everywhere.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

jojo said:


> When I lived and worked in Spain, I paid my taxes. I'm sure if the OP wants to go on holiday for two weeks in the costa del sol, no one would mind him not paying his taxes.


Yes but now you don't live in Spain and neither does the op. And if you did decide to spend a long time in Spain you might take care not to spend so long as to be a tax resident - something that many people on here point out (how many times do posters warn people about spending more than 90 days or 183 days?). The op simply wants to know what the law is in Spain.



jojo said:


> This is a silly argument. Take it from me, if everyone had that attitude - no taxes would be paid and we'd all be living in the stone age again.
> 
> No one is going to say to this guy, hey we all pay our taxes, but we dont mind if you dont, so we'll help you to become a tax evader - cos you're "special"
> 
> ...


No everybody DOES have that attitude, and I suspect you do as well (but don't like to admit it which is why you avoid the answering the question). The difference of course is that most people aren't able to avoid tax in that way. They don't do the kind of work that moves them around so regularly, and they prefer to settle down and pay the taxes that go with becoming a tax resident somewhere. But other people do choose to spend a few years working internationally and take the tax benefits that come with it. It's their right, and yours too, should you choose to do so.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Chopera said:


> Yes but now you don't live in Spain and neither does the op. And if you did decide to spend a long time in Spain you might take care not to spend so long as to be a tax resident - something that many people on here point out (how many times do posters warn people about spending more than 90 days or 183 days?). The op simply wants to know what the law is in Spain.


If he did simply want to know the law - which we told him, then he wouldnt accuse us of making it up and he'd go and ask a professional




> No everybody DOES have that attitude, and I suspect you do as well (but don't like to admit it which is why you avoid the answering the question). The difference of course is that most people aren't able to avoid tax in that way. They don't do the kind of work that moves them around so regularly, and they prefer to settle down and pay the taxes that go with becoming a tax resident somewhere. But other people do choose to spend a few years working internationally and take the tax benefits that come with it. It's their right, and yours too, should you choose to do so.


My attitude is we all pay our way! I dislike those who deliberately dont. If people genuinely dont want to pay tax, then they can either stop working or **** off and go find a country where they dont need to - and that isnt Spain! So, dont second guess my attitude.


Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Chopera said:


> No everybody DOES have that attitude, and I suspect you do as well (but don't like to admit it which is why you avoid the answering the question). The difference of course is that most people aren't able to avoid tax in that way. They don't do the kind of work that moves them around so regularly, and they prefer to settle down and pay the taxes that go with becoming a tax resident somewhere. But other people do choose to spend a few years working internationally and take the tax benefits that come with it. It's their right, and yours too, should you choose to do so.


Well, I would swear on my late grannie's rosary beads that I DON'T. have that attitude and neither does my partner.
We have neither evaded nor avoided tax.
But I agree with the rest of your post. Many years ago OH worked out of the UK.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> You don't need to, they collect it from all the tax you pay on hotels, petrol, drinks, restaurant meals, etc etc. At least 20% of what you spend goes to the government, which should more than cover the wear and tear on pavements.


And if more people were honest and declared all their world wide income (native Spaniards as well as foreign residents, of course) then indirect taxes like IVA, which take up a higher proportion of the income of lower paid people than they do that of the better-off, would not need to be as high as they are. We would not have to pay such high taxes on buying property or inheriting money, either.


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## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

& believe me it can be a tough life at times and our decision to live and work overseas had nothing to do with tax and everything to do with employment.

Oil / gas & shipbuilding industries are tough environments, dirty and dangerous with very long hours and the pay reflects that (sometimes!). 

The guys (especially the Scandis; was that not in the programme?!?) work very hard and can often be accused of playing even harder! 

If the (young) lad who started this thread wants come and spend 180 days a year totally legally here in Spain spending his hard earned cash here in Spain is that not a good thing?

I will be very surprised if his employer isn't paying local tax on his behalf and he really needs to find out. With those tax returns and staying out of the UK for the designated number of days the HMRC will be happy. & that is the main thing!

I know tonnes of perfectly sane gents who haven't paid tax anywhere for years. I personally couldn't sleep nights and my husband can't afford to lose any more hair! so we have never ever avoided income tax.

I am not sure what everyone is getting their knickers in a knot about actually! This whole place seems to be run on cash in hand! From locksmiths, to decorators to local Brit bars you can't tell me they are all legal and above board with the tax man? Certainly I have a few imply to me otherwise.

At least this lad will have some cash in his pocket to spend and will not be looking to rip any one off!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

angil said:


> & believe me it can be a tough life at times and our decision to live and work overseas had nothing to do with tax and everything to do with employment.
> 
> Oil / gas & shipbuilding industries are tough environments, dirty and dangerous with very long hours and the pay reflects that (sometimes!).
> 
> ...


I hear what you say but working and living abroad is always a choice and nearly always a choice made for financial reasons.
Yes, it's true, it does seem as if Spain is run on cash. That's one reason why the economy is in such a mess. 
And because it's commonplace, that doesn't make it right.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

angil said:


> This whole place seems to be run on cash in hand! From locksmiths, to decorators to local Brit bars you can't tell me they are all legal and above board with the tax man? Certainly I have a few imply to me otherwise.
> 
> !


That's exactly how it is. Which is, as I said, why we all (even those of us who do pay all the direct taxes due from us) also have to pay so much IVA on things we have no alternative but to pay for such as utility bills and food. That's very hard on families who pay their other taxes and don't earn very much, whilst those who might be earning large amounts of undeclared income pay only the IVA, and paying for the basic essentials of life takes up a much smaller proportion of their income anyway.

At least, according to the tax proposals just announced by Rajoy today, from 2015 anyone with an income of €12,000 or less will pay no income tax at all, and those with an income of up to €20,000 will see a reduction in their tax. Should benefit a good few retired expats as well as people in low paid jobs, I would think.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Chopera said:


> But if you had the choice of legally paying the tax you pay now and legally not paying any tax, which would you choose? Would you voluntarily pay more tax even though you are in no way legally obliged to?


Well I've already said that I don't think it's a bad idea to pay tax broadly speaking. I can't see that *not* paying tax (an adult who is employed and earning a minimum amount) is an option. It doesn't make sense. If you're in that position you should be looking to where to pay tax, not how *not* to pay it.
And if the system worked and there was little corruption I might be persuaded to pay more than legally obliged to. The possible benefits are huge. The outcome if nobody or few paid would be a disaster IMHO.
I'm not a paragon of virtue either. Yes, it's true, I have one class that pays me in black, but because he wants to. I'd prefer it on the books.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

angil said:


> I am not sure what everyone is getting their knickers in a knot about actually! This whole place seems to be run on cash in hand! From locksmiths, to decorators to local Brit bars you can't tell me they are all legal and above board with the tax man? Certainly I have a few imply to me otherwise.


My knickers are still in place actually.
Yep, a lot of cash in hand going on still and I don't think anyone's trying to say it's legal and above board. Will it stop? Not until there are people checking up on it. As I said on another thread, I think the reason that this doesn't happen in other countries is that there are more inspectors and tighter controls in place, not because there's more honesty in one place than another


> At least this lad will have some cash in his pocket to spend and will not be looking to rip any one off!


Well, only the government and the residents of that country ...


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> Well, I would swear on my late grannie's rosary beads that I DON'T. have that attitude and neither does my partner.
> We have neither evaded nor avoided tax.
> But I agree with the rest of your post. Many years ago OH worked out of the UK.


OK I'll (try to) draw a line here as you, I and JoJo will go round in circles. As I mentioned earlier I thought the op didn't do himself any favours by appearing smug about avoiding tax. He seemed to be bragging about spending time in Spain while not paying tax and I can see why that can wind people up. But I think it is worth pointing out that in general terms, he is within his rights and to an extent it comes with the job he has chosen to do. 

The situation is not disimilar to that of Apple, Google et al basing themselves in tax havens, while paying little tax in countries where they operate, allowing them to undercut local competitors and drive them out of business. There is a push to put an end to this and there may eventually be a push to tax international workers. In fact I have a feeling some countries in the EU have agreements that prevent people moving between them and avoiding being resident. However I don't think thjis extends gloabally.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> I hear what you say* but working and living abroad is always a choice and nearly always a choice made for financial reasons*.
> Yes, it's true, it does seem as if Spain is run on cash. That's one reason why the economy is in such a mess.
> And because it's commonplace, that doesn't make it right.


Funnily enough I worked in the oil industry to "see the world" as well as making some cash. It was only when the world I was seeing became just one desert after another that I decided the cash was no longer worth it. So I took a pay cut when I moved back to the UK. Also when I moved to Spain I took a pay cut to begin with (although I mistakenly thought the supposedly cheaper cost of living and more relaxed lifestyle would compensate for it).


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Chopera said:


> OK I'll (try to) draw a line here as you, I and JoJo will go round in circles. As I mentioned earlier I thought the op didn't do himself any favours by appearing smug about avoiding tax. He seemed to be bragging about spending time in Spain while not paying tax and I can see why that can wind people up. But I think it is worth pointing out that in general terms, he is within his rights and to an extent it comes with the job he has chosen to do.
> 
> The situation is not disimilar to that of Apple, Google et al basing themselves in tax havens, while paying little tax in countries where they operate, allowing them to undercut local competitors and drive them out of business. There is a push to put an end to this and there may eventually be a push to tax international workers. In fact I have a feeling some countries in the EU have agreements that prevent people moving between them and avoiding being resident. However I don't think thjis extends gloabally.


I think you have summed up perfectly.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Snozzle12 said:


> Who is 'they'?
> 
> The world authority of making people pay tax somewhere?
> 
> ...


Having recently gone through all this for my wife, who has no requirement to declare in Spain as she is out of the country for more than 183 days & does not need to declare / pay in the UK (where she works) as she does not satisfy any UK residency rules & fulfills all the UK non-residency rules , you will find that all countries have a 'catch-all'.
In the Uk's case they will not allow you to become a non tax payer unless you can prove that you are paying in another country.
In my wife's case where she can legally pay here in Spain but is not required to declare as she is out of the country for in excess of 183 days, the spanish have no problem with it but the UK does. There is a fall back 'rule' for anyone who manages to avoid/comply with, all the written laws & legally does not have to pay anywhere. 
" You have to pay somewhere". When I asked where this rule/law was , I was informed that all countries operate it in cases where the person concerned can legally comply with not paying in any country.


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

That's about right Gus. HMRC will keep you into their system until you can absolutely prove to their satisfaction that you are coughing up elsewhere.


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## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

That's exactly why the OP needs to find out if his employer is paying local income tax on his behalf. 
As we are not new to this hubby asked his employer and sure enough local Angolan tax was being paid. Getting those return is going to be fun; (another story work visa / short term visa issue). 
If he submits his tax returns to the HMRC via a tax consultant, we find that works best for us, this would be enough to satisfy them (& proof he is out of the UK).
(He may find that the tax he is paying is nominal. When hubby returns to Korea in couple of months local tax is between 3 & 7%. Koreans will laugh at you if you mention tax!).
Or he may want to reconsider Spain altogether. Malta, for example, has no tax on worldwide income. You are only taxed on what you remit into the country. With a minimum payment of €5000 per year to the tax man (I think, I can't really remember). I personally don't think Spain is the place to come if you have a very healthy income and don't want it taxed to the hilt.
Just my opinion!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

angil said:


> I personally don't think Spain is the place to come if you have a very healthy income and don't want it taxed to the hilt.
> Just my opinion!


And that's the bottom line. Some people complain about various taxes in Spain, some even complain about imaginary taxes!
Others accept that as the price you pay for living in what for most of us is a lovely country with great people.
OH and I have always been fortunate enough to have had a 'healthy ' income, whatever that means. She owned businesses, I paid top rate tax on my earnings. We paid our taxes as good citizens. We had a comfortable lifestyle.
We could have gone to live in a low tax regime country. But why? We wanted to live in Spain, not some barely- dveloped country. We spent three years in the Czech Republic...what a relief to come to Spain! Worth every cent in tax!
I curse and moan when I consider the taxes I pay on my retirement income...who,doesn't? But we can afford a lifestyle that suits us and we certainly wouldn't rank low tax regime as a priority when choosing a place to live or work, for that matter.
There are more important things in life than saving on taxes!


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## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

I do agree; but 47% income tax on top of paying for everything here privately sees us 'struggling' (I use that term very loosely; dear me, when I think of children fainting because they are hungry at school in Andalucia). Anyway that & coupled with the fact hubby has ended up working somewhere he would never had planned, with time away from us being far more than we are used to, it is neither fair nor workable. & it has been a real turn off from day one in Spain. Such a shame really because I have no doubt you aren't all as mad as hatters! & I do believe there must be some lovely places to live here. Maybe another time.??


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

angil said:


> I do agree; but 47% income tax on top of paying for everything here privately sees us 'struggling' (I use that term very loosely; dear me, when I think of children fainting because they are hungry at school in Andalucia). Anyway that & coupled with the fact hubby has ended up working somewhere he would never had planned, with time away from us being far more than we are used to, it is neither fair nor workable. & it has been a real turn off from day one in Spain. Such a shame really because I have no doubt you aren't all as mad as hatters! & I do believe there must be some lovely places to live here. Maybe another time.??


As i said, it comes down to whether you can afford to live the lifestyle you want. That's true of not only Spain but of anywhere in the world, though.
When we were in business in the UK we paid tax in various ways on all the factors that enabled us to make a profit:employer's NI etc contributions for our employees, VAT, fees for various licences...not to mention employees' training courses, holidays and so on...then you pay tax on the profit!
The old saying about death and taxes springs to mind....
Yes, there is real hardship in Andalucia. Far too many people don't have a job on which to pay tax. 
The fact that in spite of all the joblessness, the poverty, the evictions ,people have not lost their basic human decency, their commitment to social solidarity, their family bonds and their warmth and friendliness to strangers is one of the many reasons why I decided to make Spain my home.
I'm not mad, far from it! Living here has made me value a lot of things I took for granted. But for me personally, roaming the world in search of a beneficial tax regime would have shaken my sanity. I need roots, to be settled. I accept that not everyone feels like me though
When we decided we weren't rats, we opted out of the rat race and we haven't regretted it for one nano- second.


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## BodgieMcBodge (Mar 8, 2013)

Snozzle12 said:


> I'm thinking of moving to Spain and taking advantage of the residency rules so I don't have to pay Spanish income tax on my foreign earnings.
> 
> Anyone got any advice?
> 
> ...



Hi, I do not know our circumstances but in some cases it is possible and it can work BUT initially the steps are to pay UK tax and follow the rules, work elsewhere then after a while become Resident but non-Resident for tax purposes. Maintain a UK postal only address at a friends or relatives house and a bank account etc. and pay NI if possible. Your work place will need to somewhere like international waters working 12 hour shifts 7 days a week and not somewhere where you have to join a tax system. After the required period reclaim the HMRC tax and follow the rules for the periods of time you spend in other places. You will remain within the radar of HMRC and may need to file a tax return every year, it is good idea to contact them to check there have been no changes. *You will not be “moving to Spain”*, but, within the rules you will only have holidays there and any other place you visit. If you are employed through one of the Oil and Gas agencies then they will be able to give you the basic guidelines and the medical insurances situation. For advice during my years in oil and gas I used the HMRC advice centres where you can go and talk to them and the only one I will now use is in Woking as it had the overseas tax department. Always keep copies of all your paperwork, tickets, receipts etc. as the onus is you to prove you abide by the rules even years later. If you get it wrong BEWARE, I know 2 people who have had problems, one has 65,000 euro to cough up to the Dutch tax authority the other £35,000 for the Norwegian tax authority.

HMRC
Woking
Dukes Court, Duke Street
Woking
GU21 5XR


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