# UK state pension of 100% NICs and another EU state pension of 70% NICs?



## Jamesmalaga (Nov 2, 2020)

This situation could arise for anyone who has been paying Class 2 Voluntary NICs to build up a UK pension to 100% while at the same time paying compulsory NICs in a European country.

I live and work in Spain and hope to retire in about 5 years. Previously I worked in the UK for 16 years. I have been paying self-employed National Insurance contributions in Spain and *voluntary* Class 2 NICs in the UK at the same time. Approximately 20 years of which will have been contributed at the same time (2006-2025).

I should end up with 35 years of NICs in the UK and 25 years of NICs in Spain.
What will happen when the National Insurance contributions are combined from the UK and Spain in excess of the minimum required, (currently 35 years in each country respectively to receive a full state pension)? Am I entitled to 35/35 (100%) pension from the UK and 25/35 (70%) pension from Spain? Is it compulsory to have the pensions combined or can I elect to claim a pension separately from each country?

Hopefully someone can answer my question or direct me to an answer.


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## ccm47 (Oct 15, 2013)

Normally the DWP works on the basis that where there is a double qualification for a benefit e.g. spouse could claim from the other spouses NICs but has worked and qualified in their own right, you get the higher amount of the two, NOT both.

However with Brexit coming up the international rules may alter so you might just get both. Talk to the DWP and ask them. 0191 218 7777. Try phoning in the afternoon when call waiting times tend to be shorter.

It would be interesting to know what they say.


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## proud.to.be.EUROPEAN (Feb 14, 2020)

You have few options here.
1. draw separately UK and ES pension
2. as ES state pension is much bigger, you could move UK pension credits to top-up ES pension to max

You should have enough for full UK state pension, you can check on gov.uk.
Also, you should get half of ES pension, https://www.citizensadvice.org.es/faq/pension-facts-spain-2018-2019-2020/ .

From Jan, option 2 will incur 25% penalty tax from UK dwp, unless some kind of magic happens and UK adopts EU benefits/SS regulations.

Everything above is personal opinion and not legal advice. Always check facts yourself.


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## olivefarmer (Oct 16, 2012)

proud.to.be.EUROPEAN said:


> You have few options here.
> 1. draw separately UK and ES pension
> 2. as ES state pension is much bigger, you could move UK pension credits to top-up ES pension to max
> 
> ...


My query is similar to the above but my time line makes it somewhat different. I qualify in March next year for my uk pension - I have 33 years contributions. (Not going to top-up to 35) Ive been self employed and paying in to the Spanish system for 13 years. I think I need to work for 2 more years to qualify for some pension here even though age-wise I am now eligible.
I believe I have to apply to INSS now for my UK pension (£154 pw) and my questions are: 1: will they automatically roll all my contributions together and I get one payment from March of £154? Or 2: Will I just get my uk element and be able to continue contributing here for 2 more years to qualify for the minimum spanish pension on top? Or 3: Will I qualify in March for the maximum Spanish pension as my contributory years would be 33+13=46 ?


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## Jamesmalaga (Nov 2, 2020)

Jamesmalaga said:


> This situation could arise for anyone who has been paying Class 2 Voluntary NICs to build up a UK pension to 100% while at the same time paying compulsory NICs in a European country.
> 
> I live and work in Spain and hope to retire in about 5 years. Previously I worked in the UK for 16 years. I have been paying self-employed National Insurance contributions in Spain and *voluntary* Class 2 NICs in the UK at the same time. Approximately 20 years of which will have been contributed at the same time (2006-2025).
> 
> ...


I have been looking for information on your option 1 of applying separately. The idea of combining appears to be to make the whole system easier administratively. I can find nothing to say that is obligatory but neither that having multiple pensions is obligatory either!


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## Nomoss (Nov 25, 2016)

proud.to.be.EUROPEAN said:


> You have few options here.
> 1. draw separately UK and ES pension
> 2. as ES state pension is much bigger, you could move UK pension credits to top-up ES pension to max ..............................................................................
> 
> ...


Do you have a link explaining that, please?


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

I am in a similar situation. According to the link below, you apply for your pension in Spain, they talk to the UK, and they work out what you should receive under both scenarios. i.e. the combined pension, or 2 separate pensions. They then give you the higher amount.









State pensions abroad - Your Europe


How your pension is calculated if you have worked in several EU countries and where to claim your pension




europa.eu







> *How your pension is calculated*
> Pension authorities in each EU country you've worked in will look at the contributions you've paid into their system, how much you've paid in other countries, and for how long you've worked in different countries.
> *The EU-equivalent rate*
> Each pension authority will calculate the part of the pension it should pay taking into account periods completed in all EU countries.
> ...


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## Jamesmalaga (Nov 2, 2020)

Chopera said:


> I am in a similar situation. According to the link below, you apply for your pension in Spain, they talk to the UK, and they work out what you should receive under both scenarios. i.e. the combined pension, or 2 separate pensions. They then give you the higher amount.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Unfortunately for us the examples given on the page you mention don't consider the case of voluntary NICs which add up to more than 100% when combined. Also to my understanding they don't give any separate pensions calculations, what they do is compare two scenarios of the *theoretical amount* and the *pro-rata pension of their own country *and then give you the higher of the two which is then combined with contributions made in the other country.

I would say to apply for both separately if you can, that way you wouldn't leave anything to chance or some petty bureaucratic decision. I'd like to know if we have the right to do this, I don't see why not. Also how would they calculate the higher amount? After all if you've paid in you should be able to receive the benefit.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Jamesmalaga said:


> Unfortunately for us the examples given on the page you mention don't consider the case of voluntary NICs which add up to more than 100% when combined. Also to my understanding they don't give any separate pensions calculations, what they do is compare two scenarios of the *theoretical amount* and the *pro-rata pension of their own country *and then give you the higher of the two which is then combined with contributions made in the other country.
> 
> I would say to apply for both separately if you can, that way you wouldn't leave anything to chance or some petty bureaucratic decision. I'd like to know if we have the right to do this, I don't see why not. Also how would they calculate the higher amount? After all if you've paid in you should be able to receive the benefit.


I think it's safe to assume the voluntary contributions would be taken into account by the UK government when calculating the national rate for the UK pension, but probably not the combined pension. It's probably something you need to check with the UK tax authorities if you need a definitive answer. The page I linked to attempts to cover general cases across Europe, without going into the details of any particular country's pension system.


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## lard_ascending (Sep 16, 2020)

I retired this year with:
30 yrs UK contributions (17 normal + 13 voluntary ) 
25 years Spanish cotizaciones at the minimum.

My UK retirement was first, and rather than apply through the Spanish system I applied directly to the Dept of Work and Pensions in the UK. I receive 30/35ths of a basic state pension.

Five months later (Spanish retirement age is later ) I applied online for my Spanish pension and receive 25/35ths of the amount based on my cotizaciones.

You are treated separately by the two countries.


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## Jamesmalaga (Nov 2, 2020)

lard_ascending said:


> I retired this year with:
> 30 yrs UK contributions (17 normal + 13 voluntary )
> 25 years Spanish cotizaciones at the minimum.
> 
> ...


That's great news. 

May I ask what you filled in on the UK application form? I downloaded a copy from the UK Government website, (https://assets.publishing.service.g...m/uploads/attachment_data/file/324636/br1.pdf)
and it asks if you have worked in any other countries "Have you ever lived or worked outside the United Kingdom or the Isle of Man?" Do we just answer "no" here, otherwise they would automatically combine the pensions? Is it the same for the Spanish application system? Also do you have to apply as if in the UK with a UK address and bank account?


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## lard_ascending (Sep 16, 2020)

Firstly, that's the wrong form. You want BR1 NSP (New State Pension)

I completed Part 7 and then in Part 10 explained that I would be eligible for a Spanish State Pension at a later date and had been advised to apply directly to the UK for my UK pension. I received a reply within five weeks stating that under EC law they had calculated my UK pension in 3 different ways. The highest was based on UK NI contributions only so that was it.

You can choose to have it paid into a UK or Spanish Account

Like anything in Spain, the application for the Spanish pension depends on who you speak to. But you're looking at five years in the future so I wouldn't worry about that yet. I assume that you've checked your Spanish Pension forecast on the Seguridad Social Web-page.


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## Jamesmalaga (Nov 2, 2020)

OK, you're right I think I have the right form now: 



https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/484571/br1nsp.pdf


BR1 NSP (New State Pension).

I am though a puzzled about "Part 7 and then in Part 10" (Time in hospital and pension credit?). Do I have the right form?

I'm just trying to see what the future might hold for me at retirement age. Too much time in lockdown and I am looking at the future! I am just trying to get to grips with the possibilities, find the relevant legislation if I can, get up to date and then see if it changes in the future.

I wrote to The Pension Centre and got this reply:

Thank you for your email to Newcastle Pension Centre (International Group) dated 21 October 2020.
Please contact the International Caseworker Department of Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, by any of the methods listed below:
Telephone: 44 191 2037010 (opening hours: Monday - Friday, 07:30-17:00)

I thought that submitting my query in writing would get an answer...

Obviously not. I have phoned but that has been unsuccessful as well. So I give the Pension Centre 0/10 for service.
I will try with the Spanish one but my experience of the administration here has usually been very poor and it seems that the UK is going downhill to join them fast!

Thanks for the advice.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Jamesmalaga said:


> Am I entitled to 35/35 (100%) pension from the UK and 25/35 (70%) pension from Spain? Is it compulsory to have the pensions combined or can I elect to claim a pension separately from each country?


You are meant to apply for the combined pension in the country you live in. If that is not where you worked then it is the last country you worked in.



Jamesmalaga said:


> Am I entitled to 35/35 (100%) pension from the UK and 25/35 (70%) pension from Spain?


Yes.


olivefarmer said:


> I think I need to work for 2 more years to qualify for some pension here even though age-wise I am now eligible.


No you don't if you apply here in spain . They are required to liase with all & every country that you have paid in to & sort the payments out. This is called pensions under EU rules having worked in more than one EU state. By doing it this way EU rules means that payments in to any EU state for pension count from year 1.so if yiou applied now you would get 13/35ths from spain.
Additionally pensions claimed in the last state worked Under EU rles actally increase the basic state pension provide from each EU state by between 25 & 30%


Jamesmalaga said:


> the case of voluntary NICs which add up to more than 100%


 In the UK once you have reached the maximum years with voluntary payments they should be stopped either by you or the NI offoce. There is no gain over paying .They used to refund all over payments some years back.



lard_ascending said:


> I retired this year with:
> 30 yrs UK contributions (17 normal + 13 voluntary )
> 25 years Spanish cotizaciones at the minimum.
> 
> ...


& by doing that you have given up the 25-30% additional EU pension amount under the system.

State pensions abroad

https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=860&langId=en


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## lard_ascending (Sep 16, 2020)

The OP asked:

Am I entitled to 35/35 (100%) pension from the UK and 25/35 (70%) pension from Spain? 

You replied yes, and that seems a reasonable outcome.

You then go on to infer that by applying in Spain he will receive an additional 25-30%. 
From whom? From Spain? On what basis?


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

lard_ascending said:


> The OP asked:
> 
> Am I entitled to 35/35 (100%) pension from the UK and 25/35 (70%) pension from Spain?
> 
> ...


Have you read the links? It is all in there; 

Here is a sample;
*Sample story*
Rosa worked for 20 years in France and 10 years in Spain.

Both countries apply a minimum period of 15 years of work in order to have the right to a pension. Each country will calculate Rosa's pension:

The *French authority* will make a *double calculation*:


It will calculate Rosa's *national pension* for the 20 years worked in France - let's say EUR 800.
It will also calculate a *theoretical amount*, the pension Rosa would have had if she had worked the full 30 years in France - let's say EUR 1 500. Then, it will determine the *pro-rata pension*, that is the part of this amount which should be paid for the years worked in France: 1 500x20 years in France/30 years in total= EUR 1 000.
 
Rosa is entitled to the higher amount — EUR 1 000 a month.

The *Spanish authority* will not calculate the national pension because Rosa has worked in Spain less than the minimum period required. It will only calculate the EU-equivalent rate - starting with the *theoretical amount*, the pension Rosa would have had if she had worked all the 30 years in Spain - let's say EUR 1 200.

Then, it will determine the *pro-rata pension* - the part of this amount which should be paid for the years worked in Spain: 1200x10 years in Spain/30 years in total= EUR 400.

In the end, Rosa will receive a pension of EUR 1 400.

Although the above only worked in France for 20 years the years worked in spain count. Therefore the pension France has to pay is higher than it would be if claimed in France as a standalone..
The same applies to Spain.It has to pay for the 10 years worked in spain which if claimed in spain would amount to zero as it is under the 15 years minimum & you would get nothing claiming as a standalone in spain.
If she had claimed in each seperately she would have 800€ By claiming under EU pension rules she has 1400€
from here;
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/retire-abroad/state-pensions-abroad

/index_en.htm


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## lard_ascending (Sep 16, 2020)

gus-lopez said:


> Have you read the links? It is all in there;
> 
> Here is a sample;
> *Sample story*
> ...



Interesting reply. Yes, I have indeed read the link and studied it carefully.
You state:
_Additionally pensions claimed in the last state worked Under EU rles actally increase the basic state pension provide from each EU state by between 25 & 30% _

How do you come up with this figure?
Could you please provide a link to these rules.
Is it because of the strange case of Rosa?

Rosa worked 20 years in France with the national pension calculated at 800.
Then for the theoretical amount over 30 years they say 1500 on the basis of 'Let's say'.
BUT, if 20 years = 800, then 30 years should = 1200. 
In the case of Rosa this 30 year figure magically increases by 25% from 1200 to 1500 which of course boosts the pro-rata by that much. 
But where would this magical hypothetical increase come from? Is it merely from having worked in different EU countries? And how is it calculated?

Now let's imagine that instead of France, Rosa had worked 20 years in UK.
Her national pension is calculated at 20/35ths of £175 p/w = £100
Then the theoretical amount over 30 years is 30/35ths of £175 p/w = £ 150
The pro-rata is 20/30 x 150 = £100
So, In both cases it's £100 pw. Sorry Rosa, there is no 25% increase. Do the calculation. This is not 'Lets say', this is FACT.

Is the OP going to have both his full UK pension and 30yrs Spanish pension increased by 25%? I suspect not.
Please, if you have any other proof of this 25% increase, I would love to know it.

What is important here is that people get rid of the idea that the contributions are somehow merged. If you have 5 years in the UK and 25 years in Spain, you DO NOT receive 30 years from Spain. You are treated separately by each country.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

lard_ascending said:


> Interesting reply. Yes, I have indeed read the link and studied it carefully.
> You state:
> _Additionally pensions claimed in the last state worked Under EU rles actally increase the basic state pension provide from each EU state by between 25 & 30% _
> 
> ...


FACT The above links are EU: as are the samples. If you have 5 years in UK You will not receive anything if applying seperately as 10 years is now the minimum.
By applying under EU rules the UK now ,like all other EU states , has to take in the 25 years worked in spain as complying with the over 10 years minimum.

They are the samples from the EU links, not mine .there are multiple samples if you look in the links.
Yes you are treated seearately by each country but under EU pension rules. Otherwise Rosa would receive nothing from France & nor spain as under the minimum limit. 
My brother claimed under EU rules in Germany. The Germans did all the paperwork & contact with the UK. 12 years worked in the UK & the same in Germany. 
UK = £200/month
Germany 1000€/month. This was claimed in 2009.


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## lard_ascending (Sep 16, 2020)

gus-lopez said:


> FACT The above links are EU: as are the samples. If you have 5 years in UK You will not receive anything if applying seperately as 10 years is now the minimum.
> By applying under EU rules the UK now ,like all other EU states , has to take in the 25 years worked in spain as complying with the over 10 years minimum.
> 
> They are the samples from the EU links, not mine .there are multiple samples if you look in the links.
> ...




Gus, we seem to be arguing at cross purposes.

I am not disputing a single word you are saying about the application process and the fact is that applying in the last country is really essential if you have less than the minimum qualifying years in an EU country. That's absolutely correct.

My confusion is your repeated assertion of some sort of 25 -30% pension increase that you automatically get by having worked in 2 EU countries. You state:

_"Additionally pensions claimed in the last state worked Under EU rles actally increase the basic state pension provide from each EU state by between 25 & 30%" 

and

"By working in 2 EU countries your pension now comes under "EU pension Rules" & will be on average 25 to 30% enhanced over normal basic pension rates." _

You say there are _*multiple samples*_ in the links. The only example for a calculation is that of Rosa and her increase of 25% from France was just based on 'let's say'.
However, this 25% increase was not applied to the 400€ she received from Spain. Why not? Don't these EU Pension rules apply to Spain?

One vague and contradictory example on one web-page does not constitute a rule.

Do you have any other links to concrete RULES and not just one example

I have asked you twice before and I ask you again:

Is the OP going to have both his full UK pension and 30yrs Spanish pension increased by 25 - 30%.

Please, Yes or No


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

lard_ascending said:


> Is the OP going to have both his full UK pension and 30yrs Spanish pension increased by 25 - 30%.


He isn't it would not appear as he has full entitlement to UK pension & 25/35ths of a spanish one. The "25-30%" increase is badly worded being based on the fact that by claiming as an EU pension each country has to count years worked on other countries, when if you claimed separately in each you would in most cases not get anything.



lard_ascending said:


> I am not disputing a single word you are saying about the application process and the fact is that applying in the last country is really essential if you have less than the minimum qualifying years in an EU country. That's absolutely correct.


 That would be where the 25-30% comes from.



lard_ascending said:


> However, this 25% increase was not applied to the 400€ she received from Spain. Why not? Don't these EU Pension rules apply to Spain?


 If she had applied to spain separately she would have received nothing therefore the 400€ is the 25-30% or more.

If you apply separately & had only worked 9 years in the Uk ,14 years in spain, 4 years in Germany , 9 years in France, Etc you would receive nothing from anyone.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

lard_ascending said:


> Is the OP going to have both his full UK pension and 30yrs Spanish pension increased by 25 - 30%.





gus-lopez said:


> He isn't it would not appear as he has full entitlement to UK pension & 25/35ths of a spanish one. The "25-30%" increase is badly worded being based on the fact that by claiming as an EU pension each country has to count years worked on other countries, when if you claimed separately in each you would in most cases not get anything.


Just thinking about this again & the OP really needs to contact the 
"Future pensions forecast team" as they are the only people who can tell him what years will actually count towards his pension.

Contact the Future Pension Centre

UK pension changed in 2016 . Those claiming after get a higher flat rate pension but cannot claim most benefits except housing.
What they do no tell you though is that many years from before 2016 DO NOT COUNT especially if they are not from paid employment. i.e voluntary contributions.

You can do a "state pension forecast" & check your " national insurance contributions" on line & each can show that you have a full pension entitlement & full NI record. EXCEPT that for anyone retiring after 2016 this is not necessarily true. The ONLY people who can tell you the correct situation is as above.
Even if you contact HMRC National insurance department about it they are now supposed to state from the outset that you must contact the Future pensions people first to get correct figures.
Many people have come unstuck on this having paid in 000's of voluntary contributions for before 2016 only to find they did not count. Fortunately I was informed of this prior to paying any VC's.
Additionally the OP needs to find out that of his 16 years paid employment in the UK ,
were any "contracted out" ? 
Contracted out of the State Pension

This also causes problems for post 2016 retiree's as contracted out years also DO OT COUNT.
When I was coming up towards state pension age I had a statement stating full pension entitlement along with 35+ complete years. 38 actually. 
Fortunately due to someone else's misfortune with VC's I was aware of the situation re; paying.
The future pensions team clarified that 8 of the years I had were 'contracted out' & therefore did not count. Meaning I had only 30 years full contributions.
Additionally as I was retiring,in 2019 & after 2016 I could only pay voluntary contributions for the years 2016-17; 2017-28; & 2018-19 making 33 years in total & leaving me 2 years short of a full state pension.
The OP needs to ascertain exactly what amount of years will count, if they don't can he reclaim the vc's so far paid prior to 2016. 
Also if he is falling UNder the 10 year minimum under the new rules in the Uk , to actually receive anything he would have to claim under EU pension rules.

*** In the last link 'contracted out' it can appear confusing when they state " are you retiring before &after 2016" This is due to people who could have claimed prior to 2016 & have put it off to receive enhanced rates by delaying taking their state pension for some years. **


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