# Whats good, whats bad about Spain



## Oz to Spain

HI everyone
I know this could be a book length story but I thought I would ask it anyway, my reason is simple, we are in Australia, in Brisbane, having emigrated there 6 years ago from the UK. 

We have a problem here, everyone is very nice, polite and the crime rate is low and some of the time the weather is OK, altho it is the sub tropics and has settled into a very unsettled phase of storms which has lasted now for 2 years. 

But the problem we have is that the place lacks sophistication, when people said this to me before we came I did not fully comprehend that this was code for people can't think, and act like this is an attribute and everything is consequently a bodge up. Add in an almost complete disregard for civil liberties, an almost complete lack of a moral dimension in the administration of the country leading to a almost daily litany of corruption, add to all of that a paralysing myopic insularity and opportunities for intelligent conversation become limited in the extreme because everybody just accepts it and promotes it as the Australian way.
. 
Adding to that is the lack of a built environment which has any beauty or variation to it and which,as time goes on, assaults the eye more and more.
I realise that this is pretty damning of Australia but it is very difficult to be told that Australia is so great when it obviously has a number of challenges, people are simply in denial and therefore discussion of anything beyond the various forms of ball sports is limited even wtih professional people

So I thought I would pose the question to people already in Spain, what is it they find frustrating and limiting about living there? .

My view is I might as well be living in Spain with the possibility of meeting some Brits with whom one can have a conversation about life and the universe, live more cheaply, enjoy a bottle of wine for 7 euros rather than $20 and be closer to the great capitals of Europe. Am I going to be disappointed. and don't all say yes just for the hell of it and because I'm a grumpy old git.:clap2::clap2:


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## mrypg9

Everyone's view of Spain will be different and will depend on location, personal financial situation, experiences of life in Spain and of course their tastes and preferences.
It would be folly to base a major change in one's life on a set of disparate personal experiences.
You really need to come and see for yourself, bearing in mind that Spain is a nation of very different regions and that even within one region there are huge variations. I live in a small village twenty minutes away from a busy, glittering hub of trendy nightlife.
I know it's a long journey for a holiday but to relocate such a distance and find you've made a mistake is surely worse.
Why come all the way to Spain to talk to fellow-Brits, though?


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## baldilocks

We are here for the very reasons you don't like Oz - the local culture, history, landscape, people, scenery. Everything here goes back millennia, farther back than that of UK and it has developed into what it is now. There is still a large element of family life that orientates about the senior members rather than the BBQ, the bar and F*sters. The younger members are encouraged to want to do well at school and their extramural studies - school here may finish officially at 1.30-2.30 but, after a short siesta and lunch, it is off to music lessons, extra language courses, band practice, karate, judo, tennis, football, basketball, etc, etc. - one can walk up our street as I often do walking the dog and hear a clarinet being played/practised at one house, a piano at another and a violin (ouch- he's not very good yet) at yet another and there are only 70 houses, many of which aren't occupied full-time in the street.

One of the other major (for us) pluses is there is respect - respect for people and property, respect for morals (Spain has one of the lowest ages of consent in the world [13] but you do not find pregnant teenagers or others pushing prams on every street corner, in fact as far as I am aware, there has only been one teen pregnancy in the village [pop. 5000] in the last three years), and respect for a way of life that is fast disappearing in many places. 

There are a few Brits where we live but we all keep ourselves to ourselves and have no wish to form, nor to be a member of, any Brit enclave - we, for the most part, wish to live in Spain.


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## Horlics

I think you might find a web site I know of quite interesting. Unfortunately I can't post the URL (not been a member here long enough), but if you search for "ben curtis spain" it should be the top hit.

It's written and podcasted by a Brit who moved there 8 or more years ago and is now married to a Spanish woman, and her family! It's a great read and listen.

He's based in Madrid which, having spent time in every region of the country, would not be the place i would choose to live, but he's involved people from all over in his writing and audio diaries.


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## Alcalaina

Oz to Spain said:


> But the problem we have is that the place lacks sophistication, when people said this to me before we came I did not fully comprehend that this was code for people can't think, and act like this is an attribute and everything is consequently a bodge up. Add in an almost complete disregard for civil liberties, an almost complete lack of a moral dimension in the administration of the country leading to a almost daily litany of corruption, add to all of that a paralysing myopic insularity and opportunities for intelligent conversation become limited in the extreme because everybody just accepts it and promotes it as the Australian way.
> .
> Adding to that is the lack of a built environment which has any beauty or variation to it and which,as time goes on, assaults the eye more and more.
> I realise that this is pretty damning of Australia but it is very difficult to be told that Australia is so great when it obviously has a number of challenges, people are simply in denial and therefore discussion of anything beyond the various forms of ball sports is limited even wtih professional people
> 
> So I thought I would pose the question to people already in Spain, what is it they find frustrating and limiting about living there? .
> 
> My view is I might as well be living in Spain with the possibility of meeting some Brits with whom one can have a conversation about life and the universe, live more cheaply, enjoy a bottle of wine for 7 euros rather than $20 and be closer to the great capitals of Europe. Am I going to be disappointed. and don't all say yes just for the hell of it and because I'm a grumpy old git.:clap2::clap2:


You could just move to Melbourne - one of the most attractive and cosmopolitan cities in the southern hemisphere. 

As for Spain, I live in a rural Spanish community where the chief topic of conversation with the locals is football and cattle, or with other expats (of which there are few), the state of the euro or each other's business. If I want intellectual conversation, I have to go online.

I don't mind that. The pluses outweigh the cons. Yes, there is a lot of corruption and some regions, like Catalunya, are becoming worryingly racist. But my Spanish friends down here in Andalucia are honest, tolerant, open-minded and interested in things. The only drawback is that I can't understand all of what they say, because the local dialect is so thick.

Civil liberties are highly prized in Spain, for obvious reasons. Another big plus.

€7 for a bottle of wine is pushing the boat out! I pay €2.50 for good "everyday" vino tinto from a local bodega, and €5 if we have someone to dinner.


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## baldilocks

Alcalaina said:


> €7 for a bottle of wine is pushing the boat out! I pay €2.50 for good "everyday" vino tinto from a local bodega, and €5 if we have someone to dinner.


"Pushing the boat out"? I should say it is, more like launching the Titanic. We pensioners here in Spain know how to have a good time on much less than that - just take a 1 litre carton (red usually but you could rosé or white for a lighter option) from Lidl at 55 centimos, mix with a 2 litre bottle of Casera lemon @ 1€15 and you have a very passable 3 litres of tinto de verano at 1€70 for 3 litres.

We are so much better off here than in the UK where I've heard that the OAPs are down to dissolving a couple (three on festive occasions) wine gums in a glass of water, then, if they want it sparkling, add ½ an Alka Seltzer.


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## Stravinsky

Well .... My experience of living in Spain over the last 6 years?

Firstly, don't make the mistake of thinking that if you move to another country then all your woes will be gone.

Accept ... that whatever you think, and whatever people try to tell you, you will always be a foreigner here. Talk of full integration .. yes, I had that thought when I came here but it just wont happen.

Thats not to say that (around here) the Spanish are friendly and helpful. They are. However dealing with officialdom here, especially when you first arrive, can be stressful and take longer than you could ever imagine.

The cost of living (and this does differ depending which area of Spain you live in) is lower than in the UK. I know that doesnt help, you being in Oz. Our grocery bills are lower, certainly booze is cheap, as is our house tax, road tax etc. Electricity is quite pricey. Overall I am happy with the cost of living here in the CB North. It would be even better if the Euro / £ picked up.

Learning the language is going to help you. You would be surprised the number of times things get difficult just because you cant communicate with the officials you are dealing with.

I _do_ get frustrated with the Spanish way of just chucking rubbish out of their car windows, or dumping their household renovation rubbish wherever the see fit. It used to be the same in the UK in the 70's, until the Government clamped down on it.

Overall the plusses outweigh the minus's, and of course we are close to the UK so can always pop back should the need arise.


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## donz

the politics and corruption here are still not great - corruption is apparently being slowly ironed out but when you don't get mains water for 3 weeks at a time because the mayor of the village is on the board of the water company and has been taking out his own little pot of € whenever he fancies meaning they can't pay the electricity to pump the water, it starts to pee you off a tad!

Sorting anything out paperwork wise is HARD WORK - nothing is 'simple' and as said before, also depends on where you live. Car tax for example will not necessarily be the same price in my area as it will be 100 km away. I have now lived here for 11mths and I still have not had a water bill sent to me in my name despite many attempts to have the factura changed from the old owner of the property. My 'council tax' bill also has not been sent to me despite the town hall knowing I am the owner of this property. I have to go down next week and try to sort that out too. NIE = you have to have this before you can do ANYTHING pretty much - even get a mobile phone.

I, however am very happy I moved here. Still in 'honeymoon' period I guess but my other half is half Spanish and his parents have now lived here 16 years and my own lived here for 6 years so we are not as new to it all as others may be, but it is not easy trying to get things done.

The Spanish have a way of not doing enough of X or going over the top - the tax office for example. So many have got away with flying under the radar that now they are clamping down - and HARD. So many people I know are being audited who have a totally clean slate and again, they make it very difficult - asking 20 times for a copy of the same document.

Or councils not doing the 'right' things about dog poo - after all, does banning dogs from all grass in the loccal area really sound the right way to go about it? So they just crap on the street instead.....no better

I could go on and on and on BUT as far as I am concerned, the good far outweigh the bad. I live in the most amazing place with no neighbours, my own 'bit' on the side of a mountain with no concern about buildings popping up all around me. The weather is a huge factor - majority of the time it is excellent, with a couple of months of coziness thrown in for good measure. The people in my area are really lovely and try ever so hard to understand my beginners Spanish and will go out of their way for us. Sunday = family day = brilliant. Family time is important here and I think that is missing from so many cultures now - people respect their elders which rarely happens in the UK for sure. People 'respect' the police more - you certainly don't backchat the Guardia here - you never know what will happen to you!

However only 45mins away is an area where if you never wanted to speak Spanish ever, you wouldn't have to  and many don't - but then I don't find those areas appealing at all.

I could go on and on - basically, the bureaucracy is no better here than Aus I guess, but find the right area if you want to fit in to SPAIN (not sunny Englishspeaking land) and you'll love it. Integration doesn't happen truly but many are willing to accept 'that nice brit' and include you.


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## Oz to Spain

mrypg9 said:


> Everyone's view of Spain will be different and will depend on location, personal financial situation, experiences of life in Spain and of course their tastes and preferences.
> It would be folly to base a major change in one's life on a set of disparate personal experiences.
> You really need to come and see for yourself, bearing in mind that Spain is a nation of very different regions and that even within one region there are huge variations. I live in a small village twenty minutes away from a busy, glittering hub of trendy nightlife.
> I know it's a long journey for a holiday but to relocate such a distance and find you've made a mistake is surely worse.
> Why come all the way to Spain to talk to fellow-Brits, though?


Yes, that is exactly what we are doing early next year, but we did that with Oz and it took us 5.5 years of being here for some of the structural problems here to really impinge on us and make us question our decision to relocate to Oz,so I was trying to get some of what people have found out about Spain by being there out into the open before we make the same mistakes all over again.
Many thanks anyway
Oz to Spain


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## Oz to Spain

Horlics said:


> I think you might find a web site I know of quite interesting. Unfortunately I can't post the URL (not been a member here long enough), but if you search for "ben curtis spain" it should be the top hit.
> 
> It's written and podcasted by a Brit who moved there 8 or more years ago and is now married to a Spanish woman, and her family! It's a great read and listen.
> 
> He's based in Madrid which, having spent time in every region of the country, would not be the place i would choose to live, but he's involved people from all over in his writing and audio diaries.


Thanks for that, I have found it and it does give some feel for Spain and its quirks.


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## baldilocks

I think you would also be well advised to look at where each of us lives since most of us are in that location by choice so what influenced that choice is also relevant. In many cases, they are vastly different areas/localities, for example both donz and mrypg live on or near the Costa del Sol (affectionately known as CdS), Alcalaina and I both live in villages away from the costas (I much farther than Alacalaina), some live closer, we four live in Andalucía, Stravinsky lives, I think, in Valencia, (but I could be wrong) and each area/Community/town/village is different and will colour our experiences and impressions of where we live and therefore our individual views of Spain.

What I am trying to say is while one person may find the Spanish warm, helpful and friendly another may find the cold, unhelpful and **** and that may be down to the person him/herself or the place where she/he lives and, of course, our individual natures.

You will need more than a normal length holiday. We knew roughly what our requirements were with regard to location but it still took four visits to get it right.


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## Stravinsky

baldilocks said:


> I think you would also be well advised to look at where each of us lives since most of us are in that location by choice so what influenced that choice is also relevant. In many cases, they are vastly different areas/localities, for example both donz and mrypg live on or near the Costa del Sol (affectionately known as CdS), Alcalaina and I both live in villages away from the costas (I much farther than Alacalaina), some live closer, we four live in Andalucía, Stravinsky lives, I think, in Valencia, (but I could be wrong) and each area/Community/town/village is different and will colour our experiences and impressions of where we live and therefore our individual views of Spain.
> 
> What I am trying to say is while one person may find the Spanish warm, helpful and friendly another may find the cold, unhelpful and **** and that may be down to the person him/herself or the place where she/he lives and, of course, our individual natures.
> 
> You will need more than a normal length holiday. We knew roughly what our requirements were with regard to location but it still took four visits to get it right.



You hit the nail on the head

As with so many things, it all differs area to area.
As I keep saying, its clear the cost of living is far higher in the far South than it is up here

Ive seen so many posts about unfriendly Spanish people, but we dont come across them here

(I'm near Gandia btw, about 80 kms South of Valencia .... on the verges of the Costa Del Azahar)


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## Maimee

Stravinsky said:


> You hit the nail on the head
> 
> As with so many things, it all differs area to area.
> As I keep saying, its clear the cost of living is far higher in the far South than it is up here
> 
> Ive seen so many posts about unfriendly Spanish people, but we dont come across them here
> 
> (I'm near Gandia btw, about 80 kms South of Valencia .... on the verges of the Costa Del Azahar)


I live in a small town nearer to Valencia and like you have always found people to be very friendly.


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## spanishhopeful

Hi
We just made the move from Oz to Spain 3 1/2 months ago. We were there for 5 years. We have not found any thing frustrating in Spain yet. But the good things about living here for us is the cost of living, being able to pop on a 3 hour flight for the weekend and see family or them popping out to see us. But the cost of living is the biggest plus. One of the main reasons we moved here was because of the culture and history here which is a big plus for us whereas in Oz because its only a few hundred years old didn't have what we wanted.

If you have any questions feel free to ask


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## baldilocks

spanishhopeful said:


> Hi
> We just made the move from Oz to Spain 3 1/2 months ago. We were there for 5 years. We have not found any thing frustrating in Spain yet. But the good things about living here for us is the cost of living, being able to pop on a 3 hour flight for the weekend and see family or them popping out to see us. But the cost of living is the biggest plus. One of the main reasons we moved here was because of the culture and history here which is a big plus for us whereas in Oz because its only a few hundred years old didn't have what we wanted.
> 
> If you have any questions feel free to ask


So, are you in Spain now? your present location still shows Oz. It can often be very confusing knowing just where people are when they don't update and even more so with one awkward *** who keeps changing his location to all the most unlikely places on, in, under or over earth!

We moved from UK almost 3 years ago and, likewise, have found no downsides at all, except, possibly, people (family and ¿friends?) looking for cheap holidays.


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## spanishhopeful

Updated now


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## baldilocks

spanishhopeful said:


> Updated now


Thank you. So whereabouts in Spain are you?


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> I think you would also be well advised to look at where each of us lives since most of us are in that location by choice so what influenced that choice is also relevant. In many cases, they are vastly different areas/localities, for example both donz and mrypg live on or near the Costa del Sol (affectionately known as CdS), Alcalaina and I both live in villages away from the costas (I much farther than Alacalaina), some live closer, we four live in Andalucía, Stravinsky lives, I think, in Valencia, (but I could be wrong) and each area/Community/town/village is different and will colour our experiences and impressions of where we live and therefore our individual views of Spain.


I actually live in a village of 1800 souls....it's between Marbella and Estepona and it is a miracle that it has remained so small and intimate. In winter it's almost deserted..The village beach is unspoilt. I don't like bigger towns or crowded places.
The reason I'm saying this is that there are huge differences between places on the CdS. Torremolinos and Marbella are both popular seaside resorts but are very different in character. Yet they are less than thirty minutes drive apart.
Spain is a large country with many different regions and differences within those regions.


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## donz

yes and same for me- I live 30mins inland from the coast and it's a different world - I love it!!


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## Oz to Spain

spanishhopeful said:


> Hi
> We just made the move from Oz to Spain 3 1/2 months ago. We were there for 5 years. We have not found any thing frustrating in Spain yet. But the good things about living here for us is the cost of living, being able to pop on a 3 hour flight for the weekend and see family or them popping out to see us. But the cost of living is the biggest plus. One of the main reasons we moved here was because of the culture and history here which is a big plus for us whereas in Oz because its only a few hundred years old didn't have what we wanted.
> 
> If you have any questions feel free to ask


Hi 
Very interesting to discover someone who has already done it, UK to Oz to Spain, you are saying all the same things that are affecting our thinking, do you feel that some of the things that are irking me played a part in your decision making or was it a simple rational decision about cost of living and being closer to family and being in Europe. Those are things which are playing a major part in our decision making but the whole thought of doing it started with the other dissatisfactions I expressed originally, that and the difficulty of trying to downsize to a house and area that you would like to live in so that we could retire early here in Oz, which sounds very materialistic but we found that the choice was live in the bush or in a 1960's equiv of a shack in the outer suburbs and frankly didn't find either option attractive.

Intrigued that you have obviously found some of the same issues and wondered whether you could say a little bit more about what motivated you to make the move and whether you feel at this early stage that you made the right decisions.
How many times did you visit before making the move.
Regards


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## xabiaxica

Oz to Spain said:


> Hi
> Very interesting to discover someone who has already done it, UK to Oz to Spain, you are saying all the same things that are affecting our thinking, do you feel that some of the things that are irking me played a part in your decision making or was it a simple rational decision about cost of living and being closer to family and being in Europe. Those are things which are playing a major part in our decision making but the whole thought of doing it started with the other dissatisfactions I expressed originally, that and the difficulty of trying to downsize to a house and area that you would like to live in so that we could retire early here in Oz, which sounds very materialistic but we found that the choice was live in the bush or in a 1960's equiv of a shack in the outer suburbs and frankly didn't find either option attractive.
> 
> Intrigued that you have obviously found some of the same issues and wondered whether you could say a little bit more about what motivated you to make the move and whether you feel at this early stage that you made the right decisions.
> How many times did you visit before making the move.
> Regards


if you click on his username, you'll get a drop down link to his previous posts - so that should give you some answers until he comes back online


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## spanishhopeful

Oz to Spain said:


> Hi
> Very interesting to discover someone who has already done it, UK to Oz to Spain, you are saying all the same things that are affecting our thinking, do you feel that some of the things that are irking me played a part in your decision making or was it a simple rational decision about cost of living and being closer to family and being in Europe. Those are things which are playing a major part in our decision making but the whole thought of doing it started with the other dissatisfactions I expressed originally, that and the difficulty of trying to downsize to a house and area that you would like to live in so that we could retire early here in Oz, which sounds very materialistic but we found that the choice was live in the bush or in a 1960's equiv of a shack in the outer suburbs and frankly didn't find either option attractive.
> 
> Intrigued that you have obviously found some of the same issues and wondered whether you could say a little bit more about what motivated you to make the move and whether you feel at this early stage that you made the right decisions.
> How many times did you visit before making the move.
> Regards


Hey

There were a lot of reasons we decided to move away from Oz. I think it was more a collection of small things that we didnt like that put all together made 1 big reason. The housing situation, the cost of living, the lack of history, nothing to do, visa hassles ( too much time, too much red tape ) all these things played a part in our decision making. Also having the ability to be able to jump on a cheap flight and be in a choice of several different countries within an hour or 2. Don't get me wrong I like Australia and glad we have been there and done it but it just wasn't the lifestyle that we wanted. 1 Big thing was that we wanted a colder Christmas, NOT UK cold but not 40 degrees 

We have now been here 3 1/2 months and i can say that we have never settled in a country so quick as we have here. At this point I think I can say that , YES we have made the right decision for now. We never visited Spain before we made the move and we have never been to mainland Spain before. I suppose you could say we were lucky enough to love the place from the moment we landed, however it could have been so very different. It is a long way from Oz to Spain ( about 23 hours on a plane ) to come for a visit for us was a bit too much for us, and we are the sort of people that are either all or nothing  

Our situation will probably be very different from yours so I would advise to do your research and if possible come for a rekky first as it could be a very different experience for you.

Do you need to work when you get here? Have you anything lined up? This could play a major part in whether you settle here or not. We were lucky enough that we didn't need to look for work when we moved here but if you do that is a whole different ball game.

Our view is at the end of the day when you close your door at night you could be anywhere in the world and you still have to do the same things here as you would in any country in the world.

If you have any other questions we will try to answer as best we can.

Thanks

Pete


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## spanishhopeful

baldilocks said:


> Thank you. So whereabouts in Spain are you?


Hey

We are just outside Mijas.

Pete


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## Pesky Wesky

spanishhopeful said:


> Hey
> 
> There were a lot of reasons we decided to move away from Oz. I think it was more a collection of small things that we didnt like that put all together made 1 big reason. The housing situation, the cost of living, the lack of history, nothing to do, visa hassles ( too much time, too much red tape ) all these things played a part in our decision making. Also having the ability to be able to jump on a cheap flight and be in a choice of several different countries within an hour or 2. Don't get me wrong I like Australia and glad we have been there and done it but it just wasn't the lifestyle that we wanted. 1 Big thing was that we wanted a colder Christmas, NOT UK cold but not 40 degrees
> 
> We have now been here 3 1/2 months and i can say that we have never settled in a country so quick as we have here. At this point I think I can say that , YES we have made the right decision for now. We never visited Spain before we made the move and we have never been to mainland Spain before. I suppose you could say we were lucky enough to love the place from the moment we landed, however it could have been so very different. It is a long way from Oz to Spain ( about 23 hours on a plane ) to come for a visit for us was a bit too much for us, and we are the sort of people that are either all or nothing
> 
> Our situation will probably be very different from yours so I would advise to do your research and if possible come for a rekky first as it could be a very different experience for you.
> 
> Do you need to work when you get here? Have you anything lined up? This could play a major part in whether you settle here or not. We were lucky enough that we didn't need to look for work when we moved here but if you do that is a whole different ball game.
> 
> Our view is at the end of the day when you close your door at night you could be anywhere in the world and you still have to do the same things here as you would in any country in the world.
> 
> If you have any other questions we will try to answer as best we can.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Pete


What a good reply!

Especially important is your point about work which others have mentioned. There are some useful threads on the subject if you look up unemployment, jobs, working in Spain etc.

I do think however your experience is not as typical as others. To never have gone to a country, and hit the jackpot so to speak on your first visit, first area that you go to etc etc is lucky to say the least. (I suppose I did the same in a way. I had been to Spain on a day visit from France when I was 14 and came to live here when I was about 25, BUT I did have a job to go to and I did speak OKish Spanish)

Would just like to add
I* don't* agree with 


> Our view is at the end of the day when you close your door at night you could be anywhere in the world


Some of the stuff I would do in the UK (ie watch tv!) but other stuff I wouldn't. 
But I *do* agree with


> and you still have to do the same things here as you would in any country in the world.


As Jojo always says same S++t, different country

I would also say to the OP that s/he should start thinking about why Spain as there doesn't seem to be any background to the decision to come to Spain, just the fact that s/he wants to leave Oz. Why not Italy, Argentina, Estonia, Turkey, Malta, France????????????????? What can they offer Spain and what does Spain offer them?


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## spanishhopeful

Pesky Wesky said:


> What a good reply!


Thanks! I find the more information you have the better prepared you are.




> I do think however your experience is not as typical as others. To never have gone to a country, and hit the jackpot so to speak on your first visit, first area that you go to etc etc is lucky to say the least.


I totally agree, we could be the exception to the rule. Looking back everything could just as easily went to s*!t for us but we caught a lucky couple of breaks which made the transition fairly easy! Don't get us wrong there was a couple of times that things weren't good and we have had our down times too, but S*!T happens and you just have to knuckle down and get on with it. Take things as they come here. Overall it was a good move for us but everyone is different. Research, Research, Research that would be my top tip.




> I would also say to the OP that s/he should start thinking about why Spain as there doesn't seem to be any background to the decision to come to Spain, just the fact that s/he wants to leave Oz. Why not Italy, Argentina, Estonia, Turkey, Malta, France????????????????? What can they offer Spain and what does Spain offer them?


A couple of the countries you mentioned above were on our list when we decided we wanted to move from Oz. We looked into all of them, made pros and cons list. Especially France was a huge contender as we both speak french, but still chose spain

we did about 18 months of research before we actually made the move and we had about 4 folders of lists of different areas of Spain before we even bought flight tickets. I cannot stress enough how important it is to do your research on everything! Even although we done the research there is still a lot of things that you never considered that will crop up when you get here, but forewarned is forearmed!

Thanks

Pete


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## baldilocks

spanishhopeful said:


> Research, Research, Research that would be my top tip. We did about 18 months of research before we actually made the move and we had about 4 folders of lists of different areas of Spain before we even bought flight tickets. I cannot stress enough how important it is to do your research on everything! Even although we done the research there is still a lot of things that you never considered that will crop up when you get here, but forewarned is forearmed!


We also did lots of research and, in fact, Spain was not at the top of the list of countries to which a retirement was planned. Our researches ruled out most other countries on our list, so we came on a look-see visit to the rough area of Spain that we thought would meet our criteria with regard to climate, landscape, people, etc....

A second visit confirmed our thoughts about where within a 25 mile radius and a brief look at some properties firmed up our ideas on property type (city, town, village, in the sticks, urb. etc) and ruled out a number of potential properties. A third visit was for serious house-hunting and ended with our buying.

This may seem to be a lot of visits but they were only for a week at a time, because that was all the time we could get off work since we needed longer breaks for visits to the US to see my wife's parents. Our time was also strteched because we needed to sell our flat in UK and, eventually, the villa we had bought for the in-laws in Florida. 

We made the right choice and after 3 years we are more in love with where we are, every day.


----------



## Oz to Spain

spanishhopeful said:


> Hey
> 
> There were a lot of reasons we decided to move away from Oz. I think it was more a collection of small things that we didnt like that put all together made 1 big reason. The housing situation, the cost of living, the lack of history, nothing to do, visa hassles ( too much time, too much red tape ) all these things played a part in our decision making. Also having the ability to be able to jump on a cheap flight and be in a choice of several different countries within an hour or 2. Don't get me wrong I like Australia and glad we have been there and done it but it just wasn't the lifestyle that we wanted. 1 Big thing was that we wanted a colder Christmas, NOT UK cold but not 40 degrees
> 
> We have now been here 3 1/2 months and i can say that we have never settled in a country so quick as we have here. At this point I think I can say that , YES we have made the right decision for now. We never visited Spain before we made the move and we have never been to mainland Spain before. I suppose you could say we were lucky enough to love the place from the moment we landed, however it could have been so very different. It is a long way from Oz to Spain ( about 23 hours on a plane ) to come for a visit for us was a bit too much for us, and we are the sort of people that are either all or nothing
> 
> Our situation will probably be very different from yours so I would advise to do your research and if possible come for a rekky first as it could be a very different experience for you.
> 
> Do you need to work when you get here? Have you anything lined up? This could play a major part in whether you settle here or not. We were lucky enough that we didn't need to look for work when we moved here but if you do that is a whole different ball game.
> 
> Our view is at the end of the day when you close your door at night you could be anywhere in the world and you still have to do the same things here as you would in any country in the world.
> 
> If you have any other questions we will try to answer as best we can.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Pete


Hi Pete
Thanks for taking the trouble to respond, it sounds like you had the same issues that we are having which is reassuring in a way, especially the thing about there being nothing to do, the difficulty of getting anywhere and the culture or the lack of it 

The Visa issue is resolved now but did take a lot of time and effort to get it originally, but we are now full citizens with passports. 

Our situation is that I am retired at 64 but my wife is working and is 48, we intend to buy outright in spain and then both retire on my pensions and the income from released equity from our Oz house, which is something we would find very difficult to do here in oz without going bush.

As a fall back position my wife could do a short course in the UK and teach english as a foreign language in Spain as she is well qualified in a variety of areas but I suspect that that may be a saturated market, any observations would be welcome

I just wondered if you minded telling us what your life situation is and where you were in Oz, and where you are in Spain, as that would help us to assess whether we are being sensible in throwing up the well paid job my wife has on what seems, at times, to be no more than a whim for us to be together now rather than waiting another 5/6/7 years and to do it then here in Oz.

We are coming out to do a recce lane: ourselves in March next year, we have been to Spain on holiday in the past so have some small knowledge of the country but I am desperate not to jump from the frying pan into the fire as I feel that I was not prepared for what I feel are the major downsides to OZ. 
As you say about Oz the cost of living is high, the cost of housing is very high, and then finding a bar or cafe that can serve proper food is just woeful, regardless of the cost, or at least it is here in the suburbs of Brisbane.

How do you feel your costs are compared to Oz, do you feel like it is less or about the same, how are you doing with the language , is it a real barrier or did you take some tuition before leaping, are the people friendly.

Can I just say that it has been a godsend to speak to some people who have had the Oz experience because it seems that until you have its difficult to understand the drawbacks.
Our best wishes to you and it would be very nice to hear more from you and we really wish you all the best for the future in your great adventure .
Best regards, Russell and Kate:clap2:


----------



## Oz to Spain

Pesky Wesky said:


> What a good reply!
> 
> Especially important is your point about work which others have mentioned. There are some useful threads on the subject if you look up unemployment, jobs, working in Spain etc.
> 
> I do think however your experience is not as typical as others. To never have gone to a country, and hit the jackpot so to speak on your first visit, first area that you go to etc etc is lucky to say the least. (I suppose I did the same in a way. I had been to Spain on a day visit from France when I was 14 and came to live here when I was about 25, BUT I did have a job to go to and I did speak OKish Spanish)
> 
> Would just like to add
> I* don't* agree with
> Some of the stuff I would do in the UK (ie watch tv!) but other stuff I wouldn't.
> But I *do* agree with
> As Jojo always says same S++t, different country
> 
> I would also say to the OP that s/he should start thinking about why Spain as there doesn't seem to be any background to the decision to come to Spain, just the fact that s/he wants to leave Oz. Why not Italy, Argentina, Estonia, Turkey, Malta, France????????????????? What can they offer Spain and what does Spain offer them?


Hi From Oz to Spain
We have thought about other countries, in particular France but decided against it due to the bureaucracy , the chauvinism of the French and the weather, having got used to the heat of Oz.
I don't think there is much I can offer Spain except my spending power and what Spain offers me is a reasonably priced base in europe , in a country which has at least 800 years of european history, a plethora of great artists, writers and even some involvement in world philosophical discussions, a heritage which may be difficult for me as an outsider to become part but which is still nonetheless there as a tangible underpinning to how society operates, without having TV admonishments by the PM to tell me what Australian values are and how important they are and which are then never adhered to by anyone with even a microscopic slice of power in their hands.

Why Spain?, because its cost of living is lower than other countries, its housing is cheap at the moment, it has a warm climate year round with lots of sun, its close to the rest of Europe and the UK; it doesn't have the British class system; it seems to understand what Socialism is really about rather than imagining its a pale blue version of Conservatism; the people are accepting people or at least that was my experience from vists in the past; they have a acceptable european level of infrastucture which can get you from place to place; their police do not routinely shoot people? and they understand Human Rights , being one of the few countries which have taken efforts to prosecute S. American dictators; and equality for women is paid more than lipservice. I hope also that the govt of the day does try to govern Spain for the good of the country rather than for the vested interests it represents, whether that is simply the Trade Unions or on the other side Corporate Australia and the Agricultural hegemony, which is what we have in Oz. 
We are trying to learn Spanish and understand Spain as a country but it is early days at the moment and until we visit next year we are holding off making the final decision.
Hope that helps you understand my decision making process
Regards Russell


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## Pesky Wesky

Oz to Spain said:


> Hi From Oz to Spain
> We have thought about other countries, in particular France but decided against it due to the bureaucracy , the chauvinism of the French and the weather, having got used to the heat of Oz.
> I don't think there is much I can offer Spain except my spending power and what Spain offers me is a reasonably priced base in europe , in a country which has at least 800 years of european history, a plethora of great artists, writers and even some involvement in world philosophical discussions, a heritage which may be difficult for me as an outsider to become part but which is still nonetheless there as a tangible underpinning to how society operates, without having TV admonishments by the PM to tell me what Australian values are and how important they are and which are then never adhered to by anyone with even a microscopic slice of power in their hands.
> 
> Why Spain?, because its cost of living is lower than other countries, its housing is cheap at the moment, it has a warm climate year round with lots of sun, its close to the rest of Europe and the UK; it doesn't have the British class system; it seems to understand what Socialism is really about rather than imagining its a pale blue version of Conservatism; the people are accepting people or at least that was my experience from vists in the past; they have a acceptable european level of infrastucture which can get you from place to place; their police do not routinely shoot people? and they understand Human Rights , being one of the few countries which have taken efforts to prosecute S. American dictators; and equality for women is paid more than lipservice. I hope also that the govt of the day does try to govern Spain for the good of the country rather than for the vested interests it represents, whether that is simply the Trade Unions or on the other side Corporate Australia and the Agricultural hegemony, which is what we have in Oz.
> We are trying to learn Spanish and understand Spain as a country but it is early days at the moment and until we visit next year we are holding off making the final decision.
> Hope that helps you understand my decision making process
> Regards Russell


Will get back to you on this - meanwhile get ready for those who have politics as a hobby to answer!


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## jojo

Oz to Spain said:


> Hi From Oz to Spain
> We have thought about other countries, in particular France but decided against it due to the bureaucracy , the chauvinism of the French and the weather, having got used to the heat of Oz.
> I don't think there is much I can offer Spain except my spending power and what Spain offers me is a reasonably priced base in europe , in a country which has at least 800 years of european history, a plethora of great artists, writers and even some involvement in world philosophical discussions, a heritage which may be difficult for me as an outsider to become part but which is still nonetheless there as a tangible underpinning to how society operates, without having TV admonishments by the PM to tell me what Australian values are and how important they are and which are then never adhered to by anyone with even a microscopic slice of power in their hands.
> 
> Why Spain?, because its cost of living is lower than other countries, its housing is cheap at the moment, it has a warm climate year round with lots of sun, its close to the rest of Europe and the UK; it doesn't have the British class system; it seems to understand what Socialism is really about rather than imagining its a pale blue version of Conservatism; the people are accepting people or at least that was my experience from vists in the past; they have a acceptable european level of infrastucture which can get you from place to place; their police do not routinely shoot people? and they understand Human Rights , being one of the few countries which have taken efforts to prosecute S. American dictators; and equality for women is paid more than lipservice. I hope also that the govt of the day does try to govern Spain for the good of the country rather than for the vested interests it represents, whether that is simply the Trade Unions or on the other side Corporate Australia and the Agricultural hegemony, which is what we have in Oz.
> We are trying to learn Spanish and understand Spain as a country but it is early days at the moment and until we visit next year we are holding off making the final decision.
> Hope that helps you understand my decision making process
> Regards Russell


Umm..... I'm not sure about the politics, but on a day to day level, I cant recognise much of what you're saying. Spain and its people are much the same as anywhere else in Europe, as is life there. I dont know how that compares with Australia tho. As Pesky Wesky has pointed out, my favourite saying and its true "same ****, different place" - you bring your life with you and thats what you do wherever you live

As for all the year warm climate - That was one of the big shocks to me - the winters are cold, wet and windy, with most areas getting a good sprinkling of snow. The Canary Islands are better for all year climate apparently. 

That said it is a wonderful place to live, it is cheaper (in the main) for now and once you get used to the "manana attitude" and bureaucracy its a great place to be

Jo xxx


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## baldilocks

Oz to Spain said:


> Hi From Oz to Spain
> We have thought about other countries, in particular France but decided against it due to the bureaucracy , the chauvinism of the French and the weather, having got used to the heat of Oz.
> I don't think there is much I can offer Spain except my spending power and what Spain offers me is a reasonably priced base in europe , in a country which has at least 800 years of european history, a plethora of great artists, writers and even some involvement in world philosophical discussions, a heritage which may be difficult for me as an outsider to become part but which is still nonetheless there as a tangible underpinning to how society operates, without having TV admonishments by the PM to tell me what Australian values are and how important they are and which are then never adhered to by anyone with even a microscopic slice of power in their hands.
> 
> Why Spain?, because its cost of living is lower than other countries, its housing is cheap at the moment, it has a warm climate year round with lots of sun, its close to the rest of Europe and the UK; it doesn't have the British class system; it seems to understand what Socialism is really about rather than imagining its a pale blue version of Conservatism; the people are accepting people or at least that was my experience from vists in the past; they have a acceptable european level of infrastucture which can get you from place to place; their police do not routinely shoot people? and they understand Human Rights , being one of the few countries which have taken efforts to prosecute S. American dictators; and equality for women is paid more than lipservice. I hope also that the govt of the day does try to govern Spain for the good of the country rather than for the vested interests it represents, whether that is simply the Trade Unions or on the other side Corporate Australia and the Agricultural hegemony, which is what we have in Oz.
> We are trying to learn Spanish and understand Spain as a country but it is early days at the moment and until we visit next year we are holding off making the final decision.
> Hope that helps you understand my decision making process
> Regards Russell


Hi Russell
I don't have politics as a hobby but do rail at politicians who are in it for themselves and their mates rather that for the good of the community/country that they are running. Equal rights have improved since the Civil War and the Republic which triggered it but this is as much a result of education being taken out of the hands of the church and the Jesuits, et al. as a conscious decision by the government to push through any implementation.

"The Police don't shoot people" ?? read up a bit on Spain's recent history. True, they don't openly do so, nor as much,as far as I understand. However there are some areas and to some people you only say the words "Guardia Civil" in a whisper.

Your 800 years needs extending a bit to more than 2000 if you are going to include the Romans and, before them, the Phoenicians...


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## Alcalaina

Oz to Spain said:


> Hi From Oz to Spain
> We have thought about other countries, in particular France but decided against it due to the bureaucracy , the chauvinism of the French and the weather, having got used to the heat of Oz.
> I don't think there is much I can offer Spain except my spending power and what Spain offers me is a reasonably priced base in europe , in a country which has at least 800 years of european history, a plethora of great artists, writers and even some involvement in world philosophical discussions, a heritage which may be difficult for me as an outsider to become part but which is still nonetheless there as a tangible underpinning to how society operates, without having TV admonishments by the PM to tell me what Australian values are and how important they are and which are then never adhered to by anyone with even a microscopic slice of power in their hands.
> 
> Why Spain?, because its cost of living is lower than other countries, its housing is cheap at the moment, it has a warm climate year round with lots of sun, its close to the rest of Europe and the UK; it doesn't have the British class system; it seems to understand what Socialism is really about rather than imagining its a pale blue version of Conservatism; the people are accepting people or at least that was my experience from vists in the past; they have a acceptable european level of infrastucture which can get you from place to place; their police do not routinely shoot people? and they understand Human Rights , being one of the few countries which have taken efforts to prosecute S. American dictators; and equality for women is paid more than lipservice. I hope also that the govt of the day does try to govern Spain for the good of the country rather than for the vested interests it represents, whether that is simply the Trade Unions or on the other side Corporate Australia and the Agricultural hegemony, which is what we have in Oz.
> We are trying to learn Spanish and understand Spain as a country but it is early days at the moment and until we visit next year we are holding off making the final decision.
> Hope that helps you understand my decision making process
> Regards Russell


We came to Spain for very similar reasons. It was a shock when the current president recently swung to the right, and the judge who prosecuted the S. American dictators was nobbled by the fascists, who still exist in shadowy corners. But fundamentally all of these values still hold true. It is still a young democracy and hasn't yet been completely stifled by cynicism.


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## mrypg9

Although not inevitable, it seems very likely that Spain will have a right-wing government after the elections next month. Sadly.
The PSOE, the Spanish equivalent of the British Labour Party, like all mainstream European left-of-centre parties, abandoned any commitment to 'socialism' decades ago and now describes itself as a social -democratic party.
If you want good old red in tooth and claw socialism, Portugal seems the place to be. In the village where we stayed last month there was a very bustling Communist Party HQ in the main shopping street and everywhere there were PCP posters and placards denouncing the IMF austerity programme.
There are small more obviously left-wing parties in Spain but at local government level they have to govern in coalition and they have scant chance of real power nationally.


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## Pesky Wesky

Oz to Spain said:


> Hi From Oz to Spain
> We have thought about other countries, in particular France but decided against it due to the bureaucracy , the chauvinism of the French and the weather, having got used to the heat of Oz.
> I don't think there is much I can offer Spain except my spending power and what Spain offers me is a reasonably priced base in europe , in a country which has at least 800 years of european history, a plethora of great artists, writers and even some involvement in world philosophical discussions, a heritage which may be difficult for me as an outsider to become part but which is still nonetheless there as a tangible underpinning to how society operates, without having TV admonishments by the PM to tell me what Australian values are and how important they are and which are then never adhered to by anyone with even a microscopic slice of power in their hands.
> 
> Why Spain?, because its cost of living is lower than other countries, its housing is cheap at the moment, it has a warm climate year round with lots of sun, its close to the rest of Europe and the UK; it doesn't have the British class system; it seems to understand what Socialism is really about rather than imagining its a pale blue version of Conservatism; the people are accepting people or at least that was my experience from vists in the past; they have a acceptable european level of infrastucture which can get you from place to place; their police do not routinely shoot people? and they understand Human Rights , being one of the few countries which have taken efforts to prosecute S. American dictators; and equality for women is paid more than lipservice. I hope also that the govt of the day does try to govern Spain for the good of the country rather than for the vested interests it represents, whether that is simply the Trade Unions or on the other side Corporate Australia and the Agricultural hegemony, which is what we have in Oz.
> We are trying to learn Spanish and understand Spain as a country but it is early days at the moment and until we visit next year we are holding off making the final decision.
> Hope that helps you understand my decision making process
> Regards Russell


Interesting.
Perhaps it's just me, but I do think you've made some sweeping statements here, which really make me wonder if you're ready for life in Spain 
The bureaucracy and chauvinism of the French. I think it's a stereotype like the seriousness and reserve of the British. What do you hope to find in Spain - jolly flamenco dancers?
No doubt there is bureaucracy and chauvinism in France, but you can bet it's in Spain too, and personally I'd say it's alive and well in the UK too, to a lesser extent, granted. 
Anyway, Spain is *famous* for it's bureaucracy. When you live here you just have to accept it as one of its loveable foibles. If you don't you'll go mad. It is improving, no doubt about it, but it's still maddening in many areas. To set up a business for example in the world rankings of ease to set up a business, the UK comes in at number 4, Australia 10 and Spain 49. Yes, that's number 49 folks!!!!!!!
Ranking of economies - Doing Business - World Bank Group

You are right that the class system as such is not in place, but Spain is still divided, as any country is into the haves and have nots. The cost of living is cheaper than some other countries and there's a lot of history, although I'm pretty sure Australia was around more than 800 years ago too... You're also right that the police don't routinely shoot people and the infrastructure is pretty good and in some areas excellent.

As others have pointed out the only place you're going to avoid winter is in the Canary Islands. On the mainland the weather is fairly mild in the south for much of the time and there are 1/2 months where it's very hot, but you'll be likely to find flooding, damp and possibly under heated housing in some areas too. It's not all sun and sand.
Also, I would seriously dispute


> that the govt of the day does try to govern Spain for the good of the country rather than for the vested interests it represents,


Nor the government of the day, nor the one that's most probably going to come in. 
To me it sound more like you're looking at Belgium, Holland and Germany with January and Feb in the Canaries.


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## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> the judge who prosecuted the S. American dictators was nobbled by the fascists, who still exist in shadowy corners.


Baltazar Garzón was not nobbled by the fascists Alca. He was a show seeker, who, surprise surprise, thought a lot about, and of, himself.


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## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> Baltazar Garzón was not nobbled by the fascists Alca. He was a show seeker, who, surprise surprise, thought a lot about, and of, himself.


Matter of opinion. One thing is for sure, it was two fascist groups - Manos Limpias and the Falange - who brought him to trial last year because he was "exceeding his remit" by wanting to investigate war crimes. 

There is a fairly unemotional account here, in the Economist:

Baltasar Garzón: Judge not | The Economist


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## BoogieG

*Live in Oz on Gold Coast, have lived in Spain*

Hi

Ive lived on the Gold Coast for 2 years, I go to Brisbane often. Im selling up and returning to the UK briefly, then relocating to Spain or the US.

I cant agree more with you about Aus. It does take a while to realise what its like.
It is beautiful here living by the beach. Low crime, great weather, laid back etc....
but, its like a bimbo, great to look at and have fun with but that wears off after a while. Theres no sophistication in conversation or humour. Im not talking about La De Da sophistication or snobbery, (Im from the midlands and very down to earth) Im talking about having interesting or witty conversations. 
Thousands of brits come here and love it. This is just my humble opinion. Im sure bringing up a family here would be fantastic. I do understand why people love Oz and it is a great place. Just not for me.
I miss Spain, the food, the culture, the weather (dryer heat) proximity to rest of Europe and its much cheaper to live then Oz. Im reasonably well off but I dont eat out much and taking a date out is expensive. I miss menu del dia and good cheap wine.
I miss road trips to another city or small village. Everywhere is the same here, no Plazas' or Paseos' (scuse the spelling, its been a while!)
You feel a long way from anywhere.
I understand not wanting to live in Brit Ghettos and I understand wanting to live with fellow brits, theres a balance. All I know is that I love spending time with my one English friend here, we just rabbit on and get each other, as nice as my Aussie friends are, its just not the same.
Ive loved the experience and wouldnt change it but Im excited at the thought of whats next.


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## BoogieG

spanishhopeful said:


> Hi
> We just made the move from Oz to Spain 3 1/2 months ago. We were there for 5 years. We have not found any thing frustrating in Spain yet. But the good things about living here for us is the cost of living, being able to pop on a 3 hour flight for the weekend and see family or them popping out to see us. But the cost of living is the biggest plus. One of the main reasons we moved here was because of the culture and history here which is a big plus for us whereas in Oz because its only a few hundred years old didn't have what we wanted.
> 
> If you have any questions feel free to ask


Where in Oz were you, are you pleased you moved?


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## BoogieG

baldilocks said:


> We also did lots of research and, in fact, Spain was not at the top of the list of countries to which a retirement was planned. Our researches ruled out most other countries on our list, so we came on a look-see visit to the rough area of Spain that we thought would meet our criteria with regard to climate, landscape, people, etc....
> 
> A second visit confirmed our thoughts about where within a 25 mile radius and a brief look at some properties firmed up our ideas on property type (city, town, village, in the sticks, urb. etc) and ruled out a number of potential properties. A third visit was for serious house-hunting and ended with our buying.
> 
> This may seem to be a lot of visits but they were only for a week at a time, because that was all the time we could get off work since we needed longer breaks for visits to the US to see my wife's parents. Our time was also strteched because we needed to sell our flat in UK and, eventually, the villa we had bought for the in-laws in Florida.
> 
> We made the right choice and after 3 years we are more in love with where we are, every day.


Im finding this thread very helpful. Baldilocks, did you consider the US, as you have connections there? if so could you compare Spain and the US in your view.


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## Guest

Pesky Wesky said:


> Anyway, Spain is *famous* for it's bureaucracy. When you live here you just have to accept it as one of its loveable foibles. If you don't you'll go mad. It is improving, no doubt about it, but it's still maddening in many areas. To set up a business for example in the world rankings of ease to set up a business, the UK comes in at number 4, Australia 10 and Spain 49. Yes, that's number 49 folks!!!!!!!
> Ranking of economies - Doing Business - World Bank Group
> 
> You are right that the class system as such is not in place, but Spain is still divided, as any country is into the haves and have nots. The cost of living is cheaper than some other countries and there's a lot of history, although I'm pretty sure Australia was around more than 800 years ago too... You're also right that the police don't routinely shoot people and the infrastructure is pretty good and in some areas excellent.


OP - PW is right. There have been many days when I remember the scenes of the Cuban movie "Death of a Bureaucrat." Sure, it was made in Cuba. However, much rings true here as well.

Regarding the class system, I suggest you spend some time on the Gran Via in Bilbao, in nearby Getxo, or in downtown Santander. I'm sure Madrid has its posh sections is well. I find it hard to imagine that the class system is not in place.


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## baldilocks

BoogieG said:


> Im finding this thread very helpful. Baldilocks, did you consider the US, as you have connections there? if so could you compare Spain and the US in your view.


US - healthcare too expensive!!!! no pension increases!!! general cost of living!! the lack of reality!!

Healthcare - must have insurance and for both of us we were looking at 4½ - 5½ thousand $ per annum (may also have had to take one out for mother-in law too once we were there supporting her!)
Pension - What you've got is what you have for the rest of your life - there is no reciprocal arrangements nor annual increases for UK pensioners once in US but within the EU pensions increase with the UK, healthcare is also covered for pensioners and dependants (that includes m-i-l since she is classed as a dependant)
Cost of living - true, many things are cheaper than elsewhere but it is impossible to walk anywhere so one needs to use the car (=fuel and maintenance costs), a lot of goods may be cheaper but don't last (US principal is sell the basic item at a lower price and recoup cost on spare parts or ensure that it is out of date within a few months so that one needs to buy the "new improved" {whatever that is} model because the first (et seq) one was rubbish; poor reliability q.v. Microsoft products). Clothes are cheap by having them "assembled" by cheap [slave] labour from US materials so that the labour can never escape from the treadmill.
Lack of reality - the US dream that they rule the world and everything is perfect, they don't and everything they touch turns to cr*p. They have no thought for anyone but themselves (e.g. the environment - protecting it might impinge on company profits!). They interfere with the politics and government of other countries either outwardly by bribery (dangling financial carrots in front of decision makers to get them to buy US goods or, covertly, by the CIA, etc.)

Spain:

Healthcare - free
Pension - get increases
Cost of living - lower than most places in part because of local produce - (don't need to drive miles just to get a weekly shop), quality of produce is excellent, most goods that we are likely to need can be sourced, and are made, locally and at a reasonable price and with a reasonable quality. 
Reality - here in Spain, they are not to far away from the recent Civil War and subsequent dictatorship so most illusions have gone, control of education is now where it should be, land ownershipis no longer in the hands of unscrupulous and greedy land-owners and the "peasant farmer" who has a large role to play in the economy can feed his family and have surplus to sell to provide an income which is then introduced into the local economy.

All in all we are in the right place (for us!)


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## Oz to Spain

BoogieG said:


> Hi
> 
> Ive lived on the Gold Coast for 2 years, I go to Brisbane often. Im selling up and returning to the UK briefly, then relocating to Spain or the US.
> 
> I cant agree more with you about Aus. It does take a while to realise what its like.
> It is beautiful here living by the beach. Low crime, great weather, laid back etc....
> but, its like a bimbo, great to look at and have fun with but that wears off after a while. Theres no sophistication in conversation or humour. Im not talking about La De Da sophistication or snobbery, (Im from the midlands and very down to earth) Im talking about having interesting or witty conversations.
> Thousands of brits come here and love it. This is just my humble opinion. Im sure bringing up a family here would be fantastic. I do understand why people love Oz and it is a great place. Just not for me.
> I miss Spain, the food, the culture, the weather (dryer heat) proximity to rest of Europe and its much cheaper to live then Oz. Im reasonably well off but I dont eat out much and taking a date out is expensive. I miss menu del dia and good cheap wine.
> I miss road trips to another city or small village. Everywhere is the same here, no Plazas' or Paseos' (scuse the spelling, its been a while!)
> You feel a long way from anywhere.
> I understand not wanting to live in Brit Ghettos and I understand wanting to live with fellow brits, theres a balance. All I know is that I love spending time with my one English friend here, we just rabbit on and get each other, as nice as my Aussie friends are, its just not the same.
> Ive loved the experience and wouldnt change it but Im excited at the thought of whats next.


Hi 
Very interested in your assessment, corresponds to our experience exactly, it has taken us 5 years to face up to what we were feeling after 3-4 years and we are doing the same as you once we have reassured ourselves that we are not going to have another Oz experience by moving to Spain.
I'll get back to you later
Regards Oz to Spain. Brisbane


----------



## Oz to Spain

Oz to Spain said:


> Hi Pete
> Thanks for taking the trouble to respond, it sounds like you had the same issues that we are having which is reassuring in a way, especially the thing about there being nothing to do, the difficulty of getting anywhere and the culture or the lack of it
> 
> The Visa issue is resolved now but did take a lot of time and effort to get it originally, but we are now full citizens with passports.
> 
> Our situation is that I am retired at 64 but my wife is working and is 48, we intend to buy outright in spain and then both retire on my pensions and the income from released equity from our Oz house, which is something we would find very difficult to do here in oz without going bush.
> 
> As a fall back position my wife could do a short course in the UK and teach english as a foreign language in Spain as she is well qualified in a variety of areas but I suspect that that may be a saturated market, any observations would be welcome
> 
> I just wondered if you minded telling us what your life situation is and where you were in Oz, and where you are in Spain, as that would help us to assess whether we are being sensible in throwing up the well paid job my wife has on what seems, at times, to be no more than a whim for us to be together now rather than waiting another 5/6/7 years and to do it then here in Oz.
> 
> We are coming out to do a recce lane: ourselves in March next year, we have been to Spain on holiday in the past so have some small knowledge of the country but I am desperate not to jump from the frying pan into the fire as I feel that I was not prepared for what I feel are the major downsides to OZ.
> As you say about Oz the cost of living is high, the cost of housing is very high, and then finding a bar or cafe that can serve proper food is just woeful, regardless of the cost, or at least it is here in the suburbs of Brisbane.
> 
> How do you feel your costs are compared to Oz, do you feel like it is less or about the same, how are you doing with the language , is it a real barrier or did you take some tuition before leaping, are the people friendly.
> 
> Can I just say that it has been a godsend to speak to some people who have had the Oz experience because it seems that until you have its difficult to understand the drawbacks.
> Our best wishes to you and it would be very nice to hear more from you and we really wish you all the best for the future in your great adventure .
> Best regards, Russell and Kate:clap2:


Hi Pete
Really would appreciate it if you could find time to reply
Thanks Russell


----------



## tobyo

okay baldilocks, I'm depressed now! heh, lots of what you wrote up there (didn't want to quote the whole thing) are the reasons I want to LEAVE the U.S. Nearly sick to death of it now, can't imagine how I'll be when it's time to leave. ack!! heavy sigh.....


----------



## holt

spanishhopeful said:


> we did about 18 months of research before we actually made the move and we had about 4 folders of lists of different areas of Spain before we even bought flight tickets. I cannot stress enough how important it is to do your research on everything! Even although we done the research there is still a lot of things that you never considered that will crop up when you get here, but forewarned is forearmed!
> 
> Thanks
> Pete


I've been wondering lately... how does one go about that, researching and getting to know lots of different areas in Spain, in order to learn what may best suit his/her preferences. Spain is a huge country, and diverse. 
I realize that ideally one should spend many months, maybe years tasting as many areas as possible. But this at least for me is quite unpractical.
I wonder if you guys know of an overview of most of the areas in Spain, that could serve as a starting point on that research. I believe it is important to try and narrow down as much as possible before doing the leg work.

In my case, I'm after good weather, great scenery (the beach nearby a big plus), away from big cities and sources of pollution, laid back, friendly people, reasonable cost of living and housing.
So far I have only one place in my list that seems to fit quite well my bill, it's also the only place I've been to Spain, for just a week: Denia/Javea area.
I'd appreciate if you can help me add more places like this to my list, and without pushing my luck too much, a brief overview of that place.

Actually I just remembered about a beautiful thread on the Portugal expat's forum, where people would comment and post pictures of the area they were living in.
This might be a nice idea for Spain as well I think.
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/po...living-portugal/46826-my-region-portugal.html
cheers!


----------



## baldilocks

holt said:


> I've been wondering lately... how does one go about that, researching and getting to know lots of different areas in Spain, in order to learn what may best suit his/her preferences. Spain is a huge country, and diverse.
> I realize that ideally one should spend many months, maybe years tasting as many areas as possible. But this at least for me is quite unpractical.
> I wonder if you guys know of an overview of most of the areas in Spain, that could serve as a starting point on that research. I believe it is important to try and narrow down as much as possible before doing the leg work.
> 
> In my case, I'm after good weather, great scenery (the beach nearby a big plus), away from big cities and sources of pollution, laid back, friendly people, reasonable cost of living and housing.
> So far I have only one place in my list that seems to fit quite well my bill, it's also the only place I've been to Spain, for just a week: Denia/Javea area.
> I'd appreciate if you can help me add more places like this to my list, and without pushing my luck too much, a brief overview of that place.
> 
> Actually I just remembered about a beautiful thread on the Portugal expat's forum, where people would comment and post pictures of the area they were living in.
> This might be a nice idea for Spain as well I think.
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/po...living-portugal/46826-my-region-portugal.html
> cheers!



The Internet is a great place for research, the local library should have books and they aren't expensive; your own brain can help a lot to (what do you want?, what are you looking for?, etc); interested in pictures ? go onto flickr!


Your initial criteria seem to be at odds with each other. "Great places" don't come cheap! The beach means the costas (unless you go for an inland lakeside beach) and for the most part that means tourists, tourist prices and all the tat that goes with them, and of course, the beach means miles of beached whales barbecuing and reeking of basting oil (a.k.a. sunoil).

The fact that you want everything instantly suggests that you are younger and may need employment - be aware that there is little about and if you want any, you invariably need to have a good command of Spanish. Of course you could always do as many other hopefuls and open a bar then go bust!


----------



## Oz to Spain

BoogieG said:


> Hi
> 
> Ive lived on the Gold Coast for 2 years, I go to Brisbane often. Im selling up and returning to the UK briefly, then relocating to Spain or the US.
> 
> I cant agree more with you about Aus. It does take a while to realise what its like.
> It is beautiful here living by the beach. Low crime, great weather, laid back etc....
> but, its like a bimbo, great to look at and have fun with but that wears off after a while. Theres no sophistication in conversation or humour.


Hi BoogieG
Very interesting, we are enjoying some of the things as you say here in oz but do find there are limitations, especially on the entertainment front and eating out, do you feel that is very different in Spain and do you feel that you can enjoy yourself in Spain more cheaply than here in Oz.
We also find that it is very difficult to have an interesting conversation about things here with people which is something you comment on also.
One of the things you mention that has really hit us recently is how far we are from anywhere that is interesting and how expensive travel is here.

I personally have found it difficult to accept the level of corruption and cronyism that seems to permeate every level of Australian life both in business and at every level of government, has this impacted on you at all.
Even my wife who works in the charity world has had to deal with two instances of possible fraud/corruption and the instances of cronyism and sexism are seemingly endless. This has had an impact on us which feels out of all proportion to the seriousness of the instances but has shaken our faith in processes here. My wife is still waiting for the police to take action on a possible fraud allegation 2 weeks after reporting it with the paperwork to support the allegation. I know that this kind of thing happens all over the world but I feel like it is more of an everyday occurence here than else where, is that something you pick up on or has it not impacted on you. 
Whereabouts are you thinking of relocating to in Spain, do you have somewhere in mind, do you feel that you will find it cheaper living in Spain than here.
Very pleasent to hear your comments, we were feeling as if we were the only people feeling this way and were wondering why we can't make it work better for us here.
See you in Spain perhapslane:
Regards
Oz to spain


----------



## karunaji

*Is there a wrong with "anywhere"?*



Oz to Spain said:


> HI everyone
> I know this could be a book length story but I thought I would ask it anyway, my reason is simple, we are in Australia, in Brisbane, having emigrated there 6 years ago from the UK.
> 
> We have a problem here, everyone is very nice, polite and the crime rate is low and some of the time the weather is OK, altho it is the sub tropics and has settled into a very unsettled phase of storms which has lasted now for 2 years.
> 
> But the problem we have is that the place lacks sophistication, when people said this to me before we came I did not fully comprehend that this was code for people can't think, and act like this is an attribute and everything is consequently a bodge up. Add in an almost complete disregard for civil liberties, an almost complete lack of a moral dimension in the administration of the country leading to a almost daily litany of corruption, add to all of that a paralysing myopic insularity and opportunities for intelligent conversation become limited in the extreme because everybody just accepts it and promotes it as the Australian way.
> .
> Adding to that is the lack of a built environment which has any beauty or variation to it and which,as time goes on, assaults the eye more and more.
> I realise that this is pretty damning of Australia but it is very difficult to be told that Australia is so great when it obviously has a number of challenges, people are simply in denial and therefore discussion of anything beyond the various forms of ball sports is limited even wtih professional people
> 
> So I thought I would pose the question to people already in Spain, what is it they find frustrating and limiting about living there? .
> 
> My view is I might as well be living in Spain with the possibility of meeting some Brits with whom one can have a conversation about life and the universe, live more cheaply, enjoy a bottle of wine for 7 euros rather than $20 and be closer to the great capitals of Europe. Am I going to be disappointed. and don't all say yes just for the hell of it and because I'm a grumpy old git.:clap2::clap2:


Is there a "wrong with anywhere" do I ask myself? And _grumpy old git's _ observations cannot be totally ignored.

But the issue is far more complex than space will allow here. Some realities - for good reason Oz citizens with an intellectual/artistic bent have gone abroad ever since the late C19th. If you made it in the concert halls of London, among the artistic salons of Paris you 'had arrived'. Sometimes at great cost. And among the more modern baby boomers you can count Germaine Greer, Clive James, Kate Letts and a host of others. If I recall Charles Mackerras, the reknown conductor also hails from down under-as does Crocodile Dundee and Dame Edna. We are an unholy lot, and I have had to live away from Australiafor40 years to appreciate this. 

However, to come to the aid of my countrymen and women - I must say that (despite the crime rate), a nicer bunch I could not wish to meet -whether it be out in the suburbs at a BBQ or at a city railway station. And generally, to use Ms Letts's famous expression, they don't really have 'tickets on themselves'. Which is why the teacher and plumber and the now defunct dunny man can mix at the same BBQ - or even opera event. Gone are the days when to show how culturally savvy you were you had to be photographed at a Gov General do and get it into the Woman's Weekly. Frankly - most people couldn't give a sxxxx if you had gone to such an affair. And that is how it should be 

What makes me smile in a pained way is the thought that you could come to Spain for intellectual stimulus sought among your own countrymen and women!!?
Since when was Spain the refuge of the UK 'intellectually starved'? I think you have forgotten the Paella and chips forefathers - and they would have left the Paella as something inedible!! Things have changed soewhat. But do not think that in this age of super mobility and a larger view of the world that many do not come here to create a 'little Britain' that in their dreams they couldnot hope to afford in the UK.

Spain is not as cheap as it was and the Spanish population are also now far more sophisticated than their British counterparts who fall upon these shore. I'm not sure where you hail from and in what circles you moved in the UK - but my long experience of the UK whispers that unless you belonged to a focused group - be it political, environmental or humanitarian, you would not have come across a hotbed of intellectual repartee - unless the ramblings over several pints count as such. And really do you HAVE to come here to talk to Brits for enlivened intellectual dialogue?? We already have enough trying to prop themselves up from a surfeit of alcoholic beverages.

Australia in the 21st century isno longer a backwater. Brisbane may not be the crucible of antipodaean Mensa applicants - but Iam sure that if you look hard enough -through your local library you may come across many groups with whom you might be able to become active.

As you seem to have an excess of finances in these days of "double dip recession looming over us, perhaps some of it could be used for aiding good causes - beit animal or human. 

To say that the landscape is unrewarding is to look with blind eyes. It is stunning, rich, vast - even in its seeming "nothingness" . Just recently the Aboriginal equivalent of "Stonehenge" was discovered. Stonehenge-a mere 4000 yrs - in the time of Abraham, compared to the 50 - 60 thousand years the indigenous population have inhabited this sunburnt land of Australia.

Australia also has many faces. For many Britsmuch of it is untapped. Those of us who are of European descent experience a different Australia to those who are from the UK. Our life focus has been and even now tends to be different as are our values -right down to our attitude to the up-bringing of children and the value and pursuance of education.

But to think you could come to Spain as an alternative to enjoy "intellectual repartee" with your fellow expats really makes me almost giddy with laughter. 

I suppose I could round this off with the good old standard Oz expression - stop being a "whinging pom" and get on with Life. Death is the one thing that is certain - and as Life's thread gets shorter - it is the journeys you can make within yourself that count and not the mileage you cover or the amount of continent hopping you can undertake. Spend that spare money on projects where there is greater need than frittering it away in such an overly self-indulgent way!

sincerely - Karunaji


----------



## spanishhopeful

Oz to Spain said:


> Hi Pete
> Thanks for taking the trouble to respond, it sounds like you had the same issues that we are having which is reassuring in a way, especially the thing about there being nothing to do, the difficulty of getting anywhere and the culture or the lack of it
> 
> The Visa issue is resolved now but did take a lot of time and effort to get it originally, but we are now full citizens with passports.
> 
> Our situation is that I am retired at 64 but my wife is working and is 48, we intend to buy outright in spain and then both retire on my pensions and the income from released equity from our Oz house, which is something we would find very difficult to do here in oz without going bush.
> 
> As a fall back position my wife could do a short course in the UK and teach english as a foreign language in Spain as she is well qualified in a variety of areas but I suspect that that may be a saturated market, any observations would be welcome
> 
> I just wondered if you minded telling us what your life situation is and where you were in Oz, and where you are in Spain, as that would help us to assess whether we are being sensible in throwing up the well paid job my wife has on what seems, at times, to be no more than a whim for us to be together now rather than waiting another 5/6/7 years and to do it then here in Oz.
> 
> We are coming out to do a recce lane: ourselves in March next year, we have been to Spain on holiday in the past so have some small knowledge of the country but I am desperate not to jump from the frying pan into the fire as I feel that I was not prepared for what I feel are the major downsides to OZ.
> As you say about Oz the cost of living is high, the cost of housing is very high, and then finding a bar or cafe that can serve proper food is just woeful, regardless of the cost, or at least it is here in the suburbs of Brisbane.
> 
> How do you feel your costs are compared to Oz, do you feel like it is less or about the same, how are you doing with the language , is it a real barrier or did you take some tuition before leaping, are the people friendly.
> 
> Can I just say that it has been a godsend to speak to some people who have had the Oz experience because it seems that until you have its difficult to understand the drawbacks.
> Our best wishes to you and it would be very nice to hear more from you and we really wish you all the best for the future in your great adventure .
> Best regards, Russell and Kate:clap2:


Hey

Sorry for the late reply we are just so busy here at the moment ( in the midst of running a new business )

Anyway a bit about ourselves. We stayed in WA for about 5 years south of perth, we loved the place it was a breath of fresh air compared to the UK Lifestyle. Currently just now we are on the CDS just outside Fuengirola. We couldn't do the costas or stay in it so we choose a place that was outside of it. Far enough away not to get bothered with the noise or the tourism but close enough to pop in if we wanted to.

We currently run our own online business which is why we dont need to look for work. Which for us is very lucky otherwise we wouldnt be here as we wouldn't have came to Spain if we had to look for work as there is next to nothing out there. 

Cost of living ( this is our comparison between Australia and Spain only ) 

Everything and I do mean Everything is an awful lot cheaper than what you would pay in oz. ( except petrol  I knew something would be the same. Petrol is about the same price as it is in Oz but I think thats worldwide anyway )

Examples - A pint of beer in my local ( if you can call it a local it was 3km away  ) was $7 In spain I can get a pint for $2 if not $1.5 if you go looking.

Chicken, Steak generally all meat here I pay about 4 Euro some even 2 euro in Australia this would be $8 sometimes more

House rentals - In our area in Australia the house pricing was through the roof even in the recession average rental price was $1400 a month for a 4 bed 2 bath which is roughly what we paid. In Spain we are paying half that amount for a 3 bed 3 bath property.

From our initial insight into the cost of living between Australia I would say that we are spending about half of what we spent in Australia.

Our Business currently earns in USD which is almost on a parity with the AUD . If we were still living in Australia we would need double the income we get to live quite comfortably. Whereas in Spain we only need half.

This might just be from our perspective if we had come here from the UK it might have been totally different but we are looking at this from the point of view of coming from Australia. 

While living in Australia I didnt think it was that expensive, however after moving here it really has been an eye opener and we can see how much more expensive to live in Australia it was.

Again just incase anyone jumps onboard and starts saying that we are wrong. This is only our opinion and please don't base any decisions on our opinion alone. We are just telling it from how we see it.

Thanks

Pete


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Oz to Spain said:


> Hi BoogieG
> Very interesting, we are enjoying some of the things as you say here in oz but do find there are limitations, especially on the entertainment front and eating out, do you feel that is very different in Spain and do you feel that you can enjoy yourself in Spain more cheaply than here in Oz.
> We also find that it is very difficult to have an interesting conversation about things here with people which is something you comment on also.
> One of the things you mention that has really hit us recently is how far we are from anywhere that is interesting and how expensive travel is here.
> 
> I personally have found it difficult to accept the level of corruption and cronyism that seems to permeate every level of Australian life both in business and at every level of government, has this impacted on you at all.
> Even my wife who works in the charity world has had to deal with two instances of possible fraud/corruption and the instances of cronyism and sexism are seemingly endless. This has had an impact on us which feels out of all proportion to the seriousness of the instances but has shaken our faith in processes here. My wife is still waiting for the police to take action on a possible fraud allegation 2 weeks after reporting it with the paperwork to support the allegation. I know that this kind of thing happens all over the world but I feel like it is more of an everyday occurence here than else where, is that something you pick up on or has it not impacted on you.
> Whereabouts are you thinking of relocating to in Spain, do you have somewhere in mind, do you feel that you will find it cheaper living in Spain than here.
> Very pleasent to hear your comments, we were feeling as if we were the only people feeling this way and were wondering why we can't make it work better for us here.
> See you in Spain perhapslane:
> Regards
> Oz to spain


Oz to Spain,
I don't know if other "old timers" on this forum are not reading this thread or they have just got used to people saying they want to come to Spain without knowing the full picture.
Spain is a pretty corrupt country so if you want to avoid corruption, as I said on a previous post, you need to be thinking about some other place. 
I was really hoping someone else would say something along the same lines as I've already written something not very positive on this thread, but it looks like the others are wide berthing the thread - sorry about that.
Anyway, back to corruption. Here's some reading for you. An article from the Economist...
Why is Spain so corrupt? | The Economist
And a quote from said article


> Against a familiar backdrop of multiple scandals in Spain, many of them involving property deals and local government, Dr Lapuente Giné asks why countries like Spain, France, Italy or Portugal "have for years shown levels of corruption and governance closer to those of developing nations with authoritarian governments, than advanced capitalist democracies, which have belonged to the OECD for decades".


Corruption in universities
Times Higher Education - Claim of 'widespread corruption' in Spain
A quote


> Corrupción en la Universidad (Corruption in the University) describes what Professor Penalva sees as the incestuous relationship between Spanish universities and local politics, which he believes is a major factor in the "mediocrity" of the country's higher education institutions.


And then there is this link to wikipedia. If you scroll down you get to a table which shows all the recent scandal and, corruption cases and it also shows how much money is estimated to be involved.
Corrupción en España - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre

I love Spain, warts and all, but if you want to avoid bureacracy and corruption think again. I'm here for good with a Spanish husband, Spanish daughter, house paid for and a job of sorts. And what's more I'm happy to be living here, despite the negative points.
You have raised specific points about Spain. If knowing about bureaucracy and corruption you still think you are suited to Spain then great, go ahead - but no moaning allowed!!
And then


----------



## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> Oz to Spain,
> I don't know if other "old timers" on this forum are not reading this thread or they have just got used to people saying they want to come to Spain without knowing the full picture.
> Spain is a pretty corrupt country so if you want to avoid corruption, as I said on a previous post, you need to be thinking about some other place.
> I was really hoping someone else would say something along the same lines as I've already written something not very positive on this thread, but it looks like the others are wide berthing the thread - sorry about that.
> Anyway, back to corruption. Here's some reading for you. An article from the Economist...
> Why is Spain so corrupt? | The Economist
> And a quote from said article
> Corruption in universities
> Times Higher Education - Claim of 'widespread corruption' in Spain
> A quote
> And then there is this link to wikipedia. If you scroll down you get to a table which shows all the recent scandal and, corruption cases and it also shows how much money is estimated to be involved.
> Corrupción en España - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre
> 
> I love Spain, warts and all, but if you want to avoid bureacracy and corruption think again. I'm here for good with a Spanish husband, Spanish daughter, house paid for and a job of sorts. And what's more I'm happy to be living here, despite the negative points.
> You have raised specific points about Spain. If knowing about bureaucracy and corruption you still think you are suited to Spain then great, go ahead - but no moaning allowed!!
> And then


Quotes from above:

Why is Spain so Corrupt?
_
"The flipside is an argument I heard in Sweden from the liberal thinker and writer Johan Norberg, who told me once that the relative lack of corruption in his country is at least partly based on the fact that Sweden was never a feudal country, with large landowners lording it over disenfranchised peasants. Instead, small yeoman farmers with their own small land holdings were governed at the local level by their peers: their brothers, cousins and neighbours. So cheating the state, by dodging taxes, say, was cheating your own."
_
Prior to the 2nd Republic absentee landowners used to take much of the peasant farmer's produce (often leaving the farmer with little to feed his family) {sometimes he even took the peasant's new wife and "had" her by right before the groom was allowed her} But these were a form of enforced bribery (corruption nevertheless) because if the farmer rebelled, he lost his farm. It became a way of life that you had to pay to ensure your peace and wellbeing - failure to do so would mean your being homeless, no farm to grow food for your family and no money to buy any, his only recourse would be to go to the cities and find some form of menial work. Of course the landowner could still keep your wife (especially if she was any good in bed!) and could send thugs to round up the peasant to bring him back to "his lord"

_"He prefers a structural explanation, above all turning on the number of party political appointees who work in local government. In a typical mid-sized European city of 100,000 to 500,000 people, he writes, perhaps two or three people, including the mayor, depend on the victory of a certain party for their jobs. In a mid-sized Spanish city, the party that wins local elections can give senior posts to hundreds of people. This means that people need to get rich quick, in case they lose their jobs at the next election, he suggests. It also means that corrupt elected politicians need not fear being denounced by impartial, independent civil servants."_

Very true!

_"The article does not recommend creating a bureaucratic elite, with jobs for life. Indeed, it says that reform in places like Spain faces two main sources of resistance: party patronage machines, and the jobs-for-life civil service lobby."
_
The latter is a major obstacle to the development of a fair and just society in Spain and until one gets that, there will always be those who will have a hand out to receive grey money or other incentives.


----------



## Oz to Spain

baldilocks said:


> Quotes from above:
> 
> Why is Spain so Corrupt?
> 
> _"The article does not recommend creating a bureaucratic elite, with jobs for life. Indeed, it says that reform in places like "AUSTRALIA"(Spain) faces two main sources of resistance: party patronage machines, and the jobs-for-life civil service lobby."
> _
> The "FORMER" (latter) is a major obstacle to the development of a fair and just society in "AUSTRALIA"(Spain) and until one gets that, there will always be those who will have a hand out to receive grey money or other incentives.


Hi Baldilocks 
Sounds like this guy should have travelled further on to Oz, he would have found a very similar state of affairs here but for different reasons, which I find difficult to distill out, maybe because it is a nation of migrants all very happy to exploit each other or maybe because it is a country which is still at the frontier stage in its development.
So it sounds like I have to expect much the same in Spain as in Oz, oh well forewarned is forearmed as they say.
My sweeping statements and polemic has flushed out some thoughts about what is wrong in Spain and I must say that nobody has said that they are so p--sed off they are leaving, ( apart from the people who have run out of options, money or pension), so that must be taken as a vote of confidence.
Be there in March to make our own assessment, looking at Costa D Sol and around Alicante, any thoughts about the important factors to consider in looking at areas would be warmly welcomed
Best regards 
Russell and Kate:clap2:


----------



## Oz to Spain

karunaji said:


> Is there a "wrong with anywhere" do I ask myself? And _grumpy old git's _ observations cannot be totally ignored.
> 
> I suppose I could round this off with the good old standard Oz expression - stop being a "whinging pom" and get on with Life. Death is the one thing that is certain - and as Life's thread gets shorter - it is the journeys you can make within yourself that count and not the mileage you cover or the amount of continent hopping you can undertake. Spend that spare money on projects where there is greater need than frittering it away in such an overly self-indulgent way!
> 
> sincerely - Karunaji


Hi Karunaji
I can't make out whether you are in Australia or Spain, but if you are in Spain then why are you there and not here in the sunbaked country.
The other aspect of your post is the exact problem that I have with Oz, no one here can have a dialogue about Australia and what it 's problems are without coming over all defensive and maintaining that it is the most perfect country in the whole world.

The' Whinging Pom' epithet being just one example of the Australian inability to have a rational discussion about alternative ideas from elsewhere, that is why I have given up on trying to be a part of organisations because that is the level at which discourse takes place here in Oz.

I have no illusions that moving to another place solves the problems of life but at least I won't have to read another bumper sticker telling me to love Australia or p-ss off, nor have to endure the Punch and Judy show that passes for politics and government here
LoL 
OZ to Spain


----------



## Oz to Spain

spanishhopeful said:


> Hey
> 
> Sorry for the late reply we are just so busy here at the moment ( in the midst of running a new business )
> 
> Anyway a bit about ourselves. We stayed in WA for about 5 years south of perth, we loved the place it was a breath of fresh air compared to the UK Lifestyle. Currently just now we are on the CDS just outside Fuengirola. We couldn't do the costas or stay in it so we choose a place that was outside of it. Far enough away not to get bothered with the noise or the tourism but close enough to pop in if we wanted to.
> 
> We currently run our own online business which is why we dont need to look for work. Which for us is very lucky otherwise we wouldnt be here as we wouldn't have came to Spain if we had to look for work as there is next to nothing out there.
> 
> Cost of living ( this is our comparison between Australia and Spain only )
> 
> Everything and I do mean Everything is an awful lot cheaper than what you would pay in oz. ( except petrol  I knew something would be the same. Petrol is about the same price as it is in Oz but I think thats worldwide anyway )
> 
> Examples - A pint of beer in my local ( if you can call it a local it was 3km away  ) was $7 In spain I can get a pint for $2 if not $1.5 if you go looking.
> 
> Chicken, Steak generally all meat here I pay about 4 Euro some even 2 euro in Australia this would be $8 sometimes more
> 
> House rentals - In our area in Australia the house pricing was through the roof even in the recession average rental price was $1400 a month for a 4 bed 2 bath which is roughly what we paid. In Spain we are paying half that amount for a 3 bed 3 bath property.
> 
> From our initial insight into the cost of living between Australia I would say that we are spending about half of what we spent in Australia.
> 
> Our Business currently earns in USD which is almost on a parity with the AUD . If we were still living in Australia we would need double the income we get to live quite comfortably. Whereas in Spain we only need half.
> 
> This might just be from our perspective if we had come here from the UK it might have been totally different but we are looking at this from the point of view of coming from Australia.
> 
> While living in Australia I didnt think it was that expensive, however after moving here it really has been an eye opener and we can see how much more expensive to live in Australia it was.
> 
> Again just incase anyone jumps onboard and starts saying that we are wrong. This is only our opinion and please don't base any decisions on our opinion alone. We are just telling it from how we see it.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Pete


Hi Pete 
Thanks for that info and no we won't hold you to account for any of it, just glad to get some other peoples perspectives.
Regards
Russell and kATE


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## jockm

*Fair enough but....*



Oz to Spain said:


> The other aspect of your post is the exact problem that I have with Oz, no one here can have a dialogue about Australia and what it 's problems are without coming over all defensive and maintaining that it is the most perfect country in the whole world.
> 
> The' Whinging Pom' epithet being just one example of the Australian inability to have a rational discussion about alternative ideas from elsewhere, that is why I have given up on trying to be a part of organisations because that is the level at which discourse takes place here in Oz.
> 
> I have no illusions that moving to another place solves the problems of life but at least I won't have to read another bumper sticker telling me to love Australia or p-ss off, nor have to endure the Punch and Judy show that passes for politics and government here
> LoL
> OZ to Spain


While it is fair enough that Australia didn't work out for you - as it is not perfect - if you honestly believe you are superior to the whole population and unable to find an intellectual equal in a nation of 22 million or even a city of 2 million as is Brisbane, may I respectfully suggest you might find it a little challenging anywhere.

If I ended up thinking everyone in a country was a complete ding-a-ling, I think it would be only fair to think that perhaps it was more my problem than theirs.


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## Oz to Spain

jockm said:


> While it is fair enough that Australia didn't work out for you - as it is not perfect - if you honestly believe you are superior to the whole population and unable to find an intellectual equal in a nation of 22 million or even a city of 2 million as is Brisbane, may I respectfully suggest you might find it a little challenging anywhere.
> 
> If I ended up thinking everyone in a country was a complete ding-a-ling, I think it would be only fair to think that perhaps it was more my problem than theirs.


HI Jockm
I agree with you but in my defence I would say that we have made efforts to bridge the gap and although I would be the first to admit to being at the extreme end of the spectrum as an introvert with all the failings that entails my wife is a complete extrovert who does a very social type of job and has also found it difficult to make real connections with people.
This is perhaps the problem with trying to put down on paper the difficulties as perceived, there is always the danger that the perception is one of moaning about paradise but I do feel there are some threads of reality in my issues with Oz.
I will admit our own personal circumstances, where my wife is working a 50+hour week, contributes to the difficulties and the very real issue is that in OZ we do not have the resources to allow us to both retire whereas in Spain we think our resources would stretch to us doing that.
So I have been a bit polemical and provocative in the way I have expressed some things but it has been interesting to get peoples thoughts about issues and that is always helpful in making decisions.
Regards
Russell


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## karunaji

*what's good and bad about Spain*



Oz to Spain said:


> Hi Karunaji
> I can't make out whether you are in Australia or Spain, but if you are in Spain then why are you there and not here in the sunbaked country.
> The other aspect of your post is the exact problem that I have with Oz, no one here can have a dialogue about Australia and what it 's problems are without coming over all defensive and maintaining that it is the most perfect country in the whole world.
> 
> The' Whinging Pom' epithet being just one example of the Australian inability to have a rational discussion about alternative ideas from elsewhere, that is why I have given up on trying to be a part of organisations because that is the level at which discourse takes place here in Oz.
> 
> I have no illusions that moving to another place solves the problems of life but at least I won't have to read another bumper sticker telling me to love Australia or p-ss off, nor have to endure the Punch and Judy show that passes for politics and government here
> LoL
> OZ to Spain


Well it so happens that I can be in three countries at any time and feel at home. Despite what my info shows, it is not from the UK that I have come over. I also happen to have a very long track record of being connected with Spain starting with active knowledge of their literature, films and classical music - all before I cycled across Spain in the early 1980s and much later walked the El camino de Santiago. Life has defined a path which did make it very difficult to be in Australia with the career I had in the earlier years.

Thinking about the situation in the UK, as the recent riots showed, it too has become a crucible of discontent. Having lived and worked there for a couple of decades, I always thought it was waiting to happen - for a variety of reasons. As some video clips showed - I am recalling the injured Malasyian young man being fleeced by those who had supposedly gone to his assistance - a sense of morality is certainly absent there as well - as was evident in the video clip showing a young lady stealing from Curry's in Clapham Junction - her validation for this action was that "she was taking back some of her taxes" - rather fuzzy thinking, I would think. And I do wonder how she arrived at the calculation!!

Once upon a time a political manifesto was virtually a "contractual obligation" between the people and the government of the day. With the rise of Thatcherism this went out the window - and corruption, which earlier might have passed off as 'cronyism' (in UK speak - public school tie network), became more blatant - and for the first time that I can recall, brought down neither individual ministers nor governments. Renaging on manifestos -which became increasingly flimsy, brought forth no mea culpas. It paved the way for the "shades of grey - and everyone has their own truth" philosophy.

We have been assiduously preparing vast tracts of politically correct grey areas for so long that we have lost all sense of what is 'wrong' or 'right' - very convenient.There is no longer shame attached to mega swindles. The people continue in their positions and all petty criminally inclined see that "crime does pay" - as they thought all along anyway! And this is so in the world of high finance - where the low life crawl around in expensive suits, or in Parliament. Enron, sub-prime mortgaging / toxic bundling and the like of Northern Rock speak for themselves - and the shameful lack of responsibility on their part and the inevitable public money bail outs. (Ours)!!

The UK parliament is no better or worse I feel than that of OZ. Perhaps in Oz they bleet louder and with a more restricted vocabulary - but the sounds are coming from empty vessels just the same. Whereas 30 - 40 years ago one felt that the person one voted for in the UK had SOME connection with you and your constituency - this has largely gone out the window, since we have taken a course within Europe which only exacerbates the feeling of disenfranchisement. On the contrary, the concept of constituency accountability is as vague as it ever was in Australia. Democratic process is not even taken seriously - the compulsory "democratic involvement of the voter" is expressed in a plague of "donkey votes".

Australian politics is to be marvelled at - a little like Italy. One can only stand open-mouthed and wonder how it ever functions. And in the end one just puts it down to the reason being that it is a sunny country - catching and riding the waves of high ignorance - in a country estimated to be able to cope with a population of 25 million maximum, it is still thinking of importing more people - of course - onto its very narrow and sparse "green belt". It has learnt nothing from the Aboriginal approach to the land. It is an exceedingly fragile climate and we are disregarding this to our peril. A problem that affects not only that island continent but also the globe. 

The vast tracts suffering from irreversible salination is from the beef and sheep industry being inappropriate to this land. The flora and the fauna are busily being destroyed before the world of micro-marsupials is even being discovered and recorded. The millions of abandoned feral "domestic cats" are all exacerbating this problem as they all forage for a daily meal beyond townships. And of course the fault lies with the human population and not the unfortunate forsaken moggies.

As long as people have money, Australia welcomes them - even if the new wealth coming to its shores is Chinese criminal funds. Youth crime is VERY high in the Lucky Country as are teenage suicides. Substance abuse is also rife among the young. There are also laws which make parental disciplining very difficult. However, my personal view is that many of the parents could do with a compulsory course in human relations and supervision thereafter! Any local newspaper on any day is harbinger to a vast array of violent crimes. 

Having spent time there, no doubt you might have observed that there are really NO facilities for the youngsters. Teenagers have no centres, no real place they can gather with an element of supervision, encouraged to partake in activities / hobbies. This all costs money and requires intelligent planning - and most people don't want to pay more in any form of taxes to support such schemes - a kind of "California reganomics think". I suspect that people tend to think that encouraging personal growth - physical/ intellectual or artistic ends with the back garden BBQ and swimming pool. 

We do tend to forget that we are dealing with a country that on a map covers from Greece up to Moscow and across from the UK to the Bosphorous. It makes it very easy for the state and federal politicians to comfortably let the needs of the communities they are responsible for slip buy, and whilst the sun shines and people find their nirvana in the shopping malls and giddy choice of fast food outlets nothing willchange. I hardly think America can be any more satisfactory to the population politically or intellectually. Nothing focuses the mind more than hard times and loss.

There will be pockets in Oz where you will find intellectual stimulus. The only thing I can suggest is signing on to a university course for adults - once upon a time Armidale (New England) Uni offered such options. But times have changed globally. Seek out the communities where there are more creative people. However, Queensland was never the hotbed of intellectual freedom - with its history of deriding the Chinese indentured labure of the past, thrashing to death Aboriginals in its police cells -as in Western Australia and South African aparteid type of mind-set.

I am glad you are discovering the "other face" of Australia. I love the place - just pity about the people. They neither appreciate the wonderouse country - its very ancient roots, the richness of Aboriginal (non-tourist) culture - because the very esence of this vastness is that the concept of ownership and boundaries defies and unsettles European /British migrant notions of ownership,boundaries and wealth.

But do not think you will find "intellectual nirvana" among your fellow countryment and women here in Spain.

sincerely, Karunaji


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## Guest

Wow, what an excellent post by Karunaji.


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## Nigeljay

I'm afraid Karanuji's response comes across as a bit pretentious to me rather than down to earth advice. It also has a decided political slant which not everyone will agree with.


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## karunaji

SaritaLaGatita said:


> Wow, what an excellent post by Karunaji.


Thank you Salaam alaikum!


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## karunaji

Nigeljay said:


> I'm afraid Karanuji's response comes across as a bit pretentious to me rather than down to earth advice. It also has a decided political slant which not everyone will agree with.


Life is not about saying things that everyone will agree with. 

Advice to be given in a concrete form is not easy, as people have to ultimately make up their own minds. I only warn people against thinking that they will find some "intellectual solace" among their ex-countrymen and women by moving to Spain.

If intellectual stimulus is what they seek amongst ex-compatriots, this is not the place to come - possibly with the exception of Madrid, Barcelona, Alcala de Henares or Salamanca.

I am sorry if you find my contribution "pretentious". Perhaps you may have found some threads difficult to follow or agree with. One does not seek to please all in exchanges of opinion / observations that matter. 

Ican only speak from experience, both in travel as well as study.


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## Nigeljay

Oddly I can usually understand all the threads even with my limited intellectual prowess


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## karunaji

Dear Nigeljay - I am not sure what your problem is / was with how I have seen things. However, my speciality over the years was lecturing on the cultures of the "English Speaking World" - and there I humbly rest my case.


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## jojo

I guess some folk like to view things in more depth than others, as for culture, well thats being nibbled away at by life, anti racialism, education and ease of travel etc . But hey, who cares if you're happy with your lot !!!

jo xxxx


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## 90199

I was in Australia living and working, albeit a very long time ago.

I am now living on the small Island of El Hierro, yes we too are part of Spain.

I liked Australia, liked it a lot, I also like it here.

To find intellectual stimulation amongst ex-pats here, would, if we so desired the same, be almost impossible, why, because we are two of the four English residents on the island, and there are no others in our immediate locality.


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## karunaji

I do! To care is a human blessing as well as responsibility. If we have no care for others - be they human or other species, we are no better than those poor animals driven by and trapped in their cycles of procreation


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## jojo

karunaji said:


> I do! To care is a human blessing as well as responsibility. If we have no care for others - be they human or other species, we are no better than those poor animals driven by and trapped in their cycles of procreation


LOL!!! But we are no better than "those poor animals driven and trapped in their cycles of procreation" and its a jolly good job we aren't, otherwise they'd be no one left to have an intellectual conversation with !!!

jo xxx


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## karunaji

jojo said:


> LOL!!! But we are no better than "those poor animals driven and trapped in their cycles of procreation" and its a jolly good job we aren't, otherwise they'd be no one left to have an intellectual conversation with !!!
> 
> jo xxx


ah Yes! BUT - there would be less misery if our kind was not so "driven" so to procreate. We differ from most other species in that we have the luxury to "ruminate" over our spiritual dimension - state of our Soul etc. Notions of Grace, Compassion, Forgiveness. We can critically analyse. Despite all th, we do things to our own species and to others that some of the lesser animals would not dream of doing!:confused2:


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## xabiaxica

karunaji said:


> ah Yes! BUT - there would be less misery if our kind was not so "driven" so to procreate. We differ from most other species in that we have the luxury to "ruminate" over our spiritual dimension - state of our Soul etc. Notions of Grace, Compassion, Forgiveness. We can critically analyse. Despite all th, we do things to our own species and to others that some of the lesser animals would not dream of doing!:confused2:


all very interesting.......................but nothing to do with the thread title - feel free to start a new philosophical thread in La Tasca if you so wish



what do YOU think is good & bad about Spain, then?


:focus:


----------



## jojo

karunaji said:


> ah Yes! BUT - there would be less misery if our kind was not so "driven" so to procreate. We differ from most other species in that we have the luxury to "ruminate" over our spiritual dimension - state of our Soul etc. Notions of Grace, Compassion, Forgiveness. We can critically analyse. Despite all th, we do things to our own species and to others that some of the lesser animals would not dream of doing!:confused2:



It depends how you say it really doesnt it. What you mean is that humans have a conscience, animals dont, so therefore what we do to is worse than what animals do to each other - altho statistically I'd say that animals do far worse things, but they dont have the burden of guilt!

Not sure theres any point in analysing it, critically or otherwise, its life and its how it is right now

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

Nigeljay said:


> I'm afraid Karanuji's response comes across as a bit pretentious to me rather than down to earth advice. It also has a decided political slant which not everyone will agree with.


It could do with judicious editing and a spell-check.
Having reread it there's a small nugget of truth amongst the verbiage.
I wonder what qualifies this poster to be able to dismiss the collective intelligence of British immigrants to Spain so blithely?


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## mrypg9

karunaji said:


> Life is not about saying things that everyone will agree with.
> 
> Advice to be given in a concrete form is not easy, as people have to ultimately make up their own minds. I only warn people against thinking that they will find some "intellectual solace" among their ex-countrymen and women by moving to Spain.
> 
> If intellectual stimulus is what they seek amongst ex-compatriots, this is not the place to come - possibly with the exception of Madrid, Barcelona, Alcala de Henares or Salamanca.
> 
> I am sorry if you find my contribution "pretentious". Perhaps you may have found some threads difficult to follow or agree with. One does not seek to please all in exchanges of opinion / observations that matter.
> 
> Ican only speak from experience, both in travel as well as study.


Has it occurred to you that your experience -and study- may be limited and in fact narrow compared to many people who have emigrated to Spain?
Now forgive my haste, I'm off to finish translating Nietsche's 'Also Sprach Zarathustra' into Serbo-Croat....


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> Now forgive my haste, I'm off to finish translating Nietsche's 'Also Sprach Zarathustra' into Serbo-Croat....


Any chance of a copy when you're through?


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## Pesky Wesky

SaritaLaGatita said:


> Wow, what an excellent post by Karunaji.


Pity it had little to do with the thread!


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## Oz to Spain

*From oz to spain*



mrypg9 said:


> Has it occurred to you that your experience -and study- may be limited and in fact narrow compared to many people who have emigrated to Spain?
> Now forgive my haste, I'm off to finish translating Nietsche's 'Also Sprach Zarathustra' into Serbo-Croat....


Hi mrypg9
Well I seem to have excited the natives quite a lot and flushed out the english? intellectuals in Spain, you can't be the only ones that made it to there, and no one has actually said that they are leaving , in fact it seems that the stalwarts on this site have a deep affection for Spain and even dare I say perhaps for the Spanish people so there must be some good things which keep you anchored there.
Please feel free to differ if that is not the case.

I've had some cheap therapy:clap2:, got some of my frustrations with Oz out in the open and been challenged on them and I think managed to establish that it is not all fish and chips and 'Newcastle Brown'.

But does anyone have ideas about how to avoid the tourist traps, whilst not burying yourself in the remotest corners of Spain, and still have access to some cultural diversion such as a concert hall without having to pack a 2 day survival kit.
Any suggestions on locations would be warmly received and seen only as a starting point not as the 'Holy Grail' of how to do it without effort.
Regards
OZ TO SPAIN


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## Pesky Wesky

Oz to Spain said:


> Hi mrypg9
> Well I seem to have excited the natives quite a lot and flushed out the english? intellectuals in Spain, you can't be the only ones that made it to there, and no one has actually said that they are leaving , in fact it seems that the stalwarts on this site have a deep affection for Spain and even dare I say perhaps for the Spanish people so there must be some good things which keep you anchored there.
> Please feel free to differ if that is not the case.
> 
> I've had some cheap therapy:clap2:, got some of my frustrations with Oz out in the open and been challenged on them and I think managed to establish that it is not all fish and chips and 'Newcastle Brown'.
> 
> But does anyone have ideas about how to avoid the tourist traps, whilst not burying yourself in the remotest corners of Spain, and still have access to some cultural diversion such as a concert hall without having to pack a 2 day survival kit.
> Any suggestions on locations would be warmly received and seen only as a starting point not as the 'Holy Grail' of how to do it without effort.
> Regards
> OZ TO SPAIN


Well, my advice would be to look around without preconceived ideas. Even near Benidorm, the tourist Mecca, there are some beautiful places and "intellectual" input.

You could also take a pocket MENSA test with you...

And a portable lie detector would come in handy against the corruption...


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Any chance of a copy when you're through?



Not until you give me back that copy of Spengler's 'Decline of the West' -in the original German of course - I lent you months ago....


----------



## mrypg9

Oz to Spain said:


> Hi mrypg9
> Well I seem to have excited the natives quite a lot and flushed out the english? intellectuals in Spain, you can't be the only ones that made it to there, and no one has actually said that they are leaving , in fact it seems that the stalwarts on this site have a deep affection for Spain and even dare I say perhaps for the Spanish people so there must be some good things which keep you anchored there.
> Please feel free to differ if that is not the case.
> 
> I've had some cheap therapy:clap2:, got some of my frustrations with Oz out in the open and been challenged on them and I think managed to establish that it is not all fish and chips and 'Newcastle Brown'.
> 
> But does anyone have ideas about how to avoid the tourist traps, whilst not burying yourself in the remotest corners of Spain, and still have access to some cultural diversion such as a concert hall without having to pack a 2 day survival kit.
> Any suggestions on locations would be warmly received and seen only as a starting point not as the 'Holy Grail' of how to do it without effort.
> Regards
> OZ TO SPAIN



I think you are making mountains out of molehills, to be honest. Living in Spain isn't like studying for an exam.
Spain is like most other countries which are part of the 'western' world and how you live is up to you.
It's very easy to avoid the 'tourist traps'....you just keep away from them. In the 'remotest corners of Spain' you will come across British immigrants.
You really cannot expect us to advise you on suitable 'locations' - you have to investigate those yourself. Spain is a big country.
There are opportunities for various cultural activities all over Spain. We do have concert halls, theatres, cinemas, art galleries and so on, you know, even in the 'remotest corners'.
You can even enjoy fish and chips and Newcastle Brown, both of which are excellent examples of British food and drink.
I am in Spain because of all the countries I have lived in it suits me best. Simple as that.I have many friends of all nationalities -some quite intellectual - and when not idling about by my pool soaking up the sun with a copy of 'War and Peace' in my hand I work for an animal charity. I also belong to a Spanish political party.
Contrary to what you say, many British and other immigrants are leaving as the economic situation is dire, unemployment is high and property prices have dropped dramatically.
If you have no money worries life in Spain is very pleasant.
But then it is in most countries because although the scenery may have changed you and the daily routine will not.

Btw, I am rereading 'War and Peace'. Anyone who has read it will know it's a great story, a bit like a Russian soap opera.


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## Alcalaina

Oz to Spain said:


> But does anyone have ideas about how to avoid the tourist traps, whilst not burying yourself in the remotest corners of Spain, and still have access to some cultural diversion such as a concert hall without having to pack a 2 day survival kit.
> Any suggestions on locations would be warmly received and seen only as a starting point not as the 'Holy Grail' of how to do it without effort.
> Regards
> OZ TO SPAIN


Get a map of Spain and a red marker pen. Draw a red line about 20 km thick all round the Mediterranean coast on the east and south of the country. Live somewhere else.

I´m not saying that the Mediterranean Costas are all one big tourist trap , but all the tourist traps are on that line. That leaves one enormous big country to choose from, including dozens of fine cities with universities, concert halls etc. You don´t need a survival kit to enjoy cultural diversions.


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## baldilocks

Oz to Spain said:


> Hi mrypg9
> Well I seem to have excited the natives quite a lot and flushed out the english? intellectuals in Spain, you can't be the only ones that made it to there, and no one has actually said that they are leaving , in fact it seems that the stalwarts on this site have a deep affection for Spain and even dare I say perhaps for the Spanish people so there must be some good things which keep you anchored there.
> Please feel free to differ if that is not the case.
> 
> I've had some cheap therapy:clap2:, got some of my frustrations with Oz out in the open and been challenged on them and I think managed to establish that it is not all fish and chips and 'Newcastle Brown'.
> 
> But does anyone have ideas about how to avoid the tourist traps, whilst not burying yourself in the remotest corners of Spain, and still have access to some cultural diversion such as a concert hall without having to pack a 2 day survival kit.
> Any suggestions on locations would be warmly received and seen only as a starting point not as the 'Holy Grail' of how to do it without effort.
> Regards
> OZ TO SPAIN


Try Granada, it offers the better side of tourism (no bingo, no Brit/Deutsch bars, only one {as far as I know} McD) it has Concert Halls, several orchestras including an excellent youth one, reasonable cost of living for a city, an international airport, skiing in winter, etc. etc.

Or Córdoba, again great tourism without the ...etc.

Or some of the surrounding villages which are close enough to those centres to enjoy the facilities without the city life (don't recommend Pinos Puente). I live about an hour's drive from both those cities and also from Jaén (which while being a provincial capital and having our nearest station lacks the cultural opportunities.


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## 90199

Hello Oz to Spain,

Why don't you make the journey, its quite painless


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Get a map of Spain and a red marker pen. Draw a red line about 20 km thick all round the Mediterranean coast on the east and south of the country. Live somewhere else.
> 
> I´m not saying that the Mediterranean Costas are all one big tourist trap , but all the tourist traps are on that line. That leaves one enormous big country to choose from, including dozens of fine cities with universities, concert halls etc. You don´t need a survival kit to enjoy cultural diversions.


But what is a 'tourist trap'?
If you mean somewhere that attracts a load of tourists, then Bilbao with the Guggenheim Museum is one of Spain's biggest tourist traps. Granada with the Alhambra is another. Pueblos blancos are another kind of tourist trap.
We're talking a different kind of tourist here, I suspect, as in the 'You are a tourist but I am a traveller'. 
I can see why as there are huge differences in the tourist attractions that 'traps' such as Granada and Benidorm offer their visitors. Horses for courses, as the saying goes.
We must be careful of not falling inadvertently into a kind of snobbery here.
Benidorm, Torremolinos, Fuengirola, the Costa Brava resorts are Spanish places visited by people of all nationalities, exactly like Granada, Seville, Bilbao, Barcelona etc. etc.
They are all the 'real 'Spain, just as Blackpool and York are both the 'real' Britain.

I was surprised to learn that Blackpool is the Number One destination in the UK for foreign visitors.....


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> I was surprised to learn that Blackpool is the Number One destination in the UK for foreign visitors.....


So am I. I thought it was the number 1 destination for Polish migrant workers!


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> So am I. I thought it was the number 1 destination for Polish migrant workers!


I think it's horrible...I've been an unwilling visitor a couple of times because Conferences have a nasty habit of taking place there. The worst hotel I've ever stayed in was in Blackpool. We couldn't open the room door because a strong draught through an ill-fitting closed window pushing against the door was too great for our feeble strength. When about three of us eventually shouldered it open the carpet was rolling as if a python were under it....
There weren't any Poles there the last time I went but that was pre -2004.
I expect they find it exotic.


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> Not until you give me back that copy of Spengler's 'Decline of the West' -in the original German of course - I lent you months ago....


Sorry Mary, I'm using it to keep the door down to the patio wedged open, lets a lovely draught come through when I have a window open in the attic (Moorish a/c). When the weather cools down a bit... I used to use Mein Kampf but the cover would keep flapping open and screaming "Sieg Heil" in true Hitlergruß style.


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## Alcalaina

baldilocks said:


> Sorry Mary, I'm using it to keep the door down to the patio wedged open, lets a lovely draught come through when I have a window open in the attic (Moorish a/c). When the weather cools down a bit... I used to use Mein Kampf but the cover would keep flapping open and screaming "Sieg Heil" in true Hitlergruß style.


I also use Moorish air-conditioning techniques and my door is propped open with a couple of volumes of the _Proceedings of the Aristotelian Society _ to stop it banging. It is heavier and therefore more effective than _The Philosophical Quarterly_ which consists largely of hot air.


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> I also use Moorish air-conditioning techniques and my door is propped open with a couple of volumes of the _Proceedings of the Aristotelian Society _ to stop it banging. It is heavier and therefore more effective than _The Philosophical Quarterly_ which consists largely of hot air.



Obviously better than Hayek's 'The Road to Serfdom' which in spite of its size is surprisingly light.
Of very little use is the Anthology of Feminist Prose which although again large in bulk needs itself to be weighted firmly on terra firma...


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## xabiaxica

I just use a great big lump of rock................


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## baldilocks

xabiachica said:


> I just use a great big lump of rock................


but we intellectuals use the classics!


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## Oz to Spain

*From Oz to Spain*



baldilocks said:


> Try Granada, it offers the better side of tourism (no bingo, no Brit/Deutsch bars, only one {as far as I know} McD) it has Concert Halls, several orchestras including an excellent youth one, reasonable cost of living for a city, an international airport, skiing in winter, etc. etc.
> 
> Or Córdoba, again great tourism without the ...etc.
> 
> Or some of the surrounding villages which are close enough to those centres to enjoy the facilities without the city life (don't recommend Pinos Puente). I live about an hour's drive from both those cities and also from Jaén (which while being a provincial capital and having our nearest station lacks the cultural opportunities.


Dear Baldilocks
Thanks for that sensible assessment, it reassures me that it is possible to do it without having to endure the worst excesses of the english mob
Regards
Russell


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## Oz to Spain

*The end is in sight*

Hi To All
Thanks to all for your contributions, we are coming for a exploratory visit early next year and I feel that we are 85% of the way to making the decision mainly because we can make the resources stack up better in Spain and partly because I personally find the attitude of the two political parties here completely unacceptable, they are about to pass legistlation unopposed, (except that the opposition want to make it more punitive), which will allow them to send refugee arrivals by boat en masse to any country that the government of the day can do a deal with, without discussion in Parliament, without any legal protections for the migrants or any right of appeal to the Australian courts.
Rather ironic given Australia's beginnings with convict transportation and, wonderfully redolent of the Georgian era in England, there is great public support for the proposals. 
So many thanks and maybe this is the time to bring this thread to a close .
Regards
Oz to spain:clap2:


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## part290861

Oz to Spain said:


> HI everyone
> I know this could be a book length story but I thought I would ask it anyway, my reason is simple, we are in Australia, in Brisbane, having emigrated there 6 years ago from the UK.
> 
> We have a problem here, everyone is very nice, polite and the crime rate is low and some of the time the weather is OK, altho it is the sub tropics and has settled into a very unsettled phase of storms which has lasted now for 2 years.
> 
> But the problem we have is that the place lacks sophistication, when people said this to me before we came I did not fully comprehend that this was code for people can't think, and act like this is an attribute and everything is consequently a bodge up. Add in an almost complete disregard for civil liberties, an almost complete lack of a moral dimension in the administration of the country leading to a almost daily litany of corruption, add to all of that a paralysing myopic insularity and opportunities for intelligent conversation become limited in the extreme because everybody just accepts it and promotes it as the Australian way.
> .
> Adding to that is the lack of a built environment which has any beauty or variation to it and which,as time goes on, assaults the eye more and more.
> I realise that this is pretty damning of Australia but it is very difficult to be told that Australia is so great when it obviously has a number of challenges, people are simply in denial and therefore discussion of anything beyond the various forms of ball sports is limited even wtih professional people
> 
> So I thought I would pose the question to people already in Spain, what is it they find frustrating and limiting about living there? .
> 
> My view is I might as well be living in Spain with the possibility of meeting some Brits with whom one can have a conversation about life and the universe, live more cheaply, enjoy a bottle of wine for 7 euros rather than $20 and be closer to the great capitals of Europe. Am I going to be disappointed. and don't all say yes just for the hell of it and because I'm a grumpy old git.:clap2::clap2:


As you quoted you are a grumpy old git. Try living in Africa with the crime and corruption. I come from Africa and been around the block a few times. Make the best of what you have and where you are. I think for me living in Australia or Spain would be a better bet than UK, as I struggle with the weather. I plan to live in Spain in two years time allowing me to be close to my children. Based on my research it is cheap, and the climate is great most of the year round. Sun .....fantastic. I hope you get to achieve what you want in living in Spain.


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## Flixton

Hi Oz to Spain,

Maybe I should put in my ha'penny bit. 

I lived in Spain for 11 years back in the 80's and repatriated to UK (now my 23rd year here). Needless to say I always am itching to return to the sun, sea and more relaxed way of life. I am heartened to hear from the thread here that many things have not changed - cheap booze - especially 0.55 Euro for a litre of your cheapest plonk - Hey! I used to pay 90 pesetas (about half a Euro way back in the early 80's) As for 7 Euro? Wow that's like launching the Space Shuttle!!!). There is much to be said for the friendly locals - who incidentally absolutely delight in your being able to speak their lingo - even badly - probably better if you speak it badly, cos it opens the way for them to engage more by helping you with it. I happened to speak Spanish fluently, but living in Andalusia, I had to be careful not to sound too snooty by speaking Castellano (which I learnt) and trying hard to learn all the local expressions (with a "posh" Castillian accent - which provided many hours of amusement to the all-too-helpful locals!!! 

Officaldom, (or rather the inefficiency and longwindedness of it) will never change in Spain. But you just need to accept it is their way. Eventually things will get done, but in a slow "sweet" pace - which you can sometimes turn to your advantage.

Overall the pluses outnumbered the minuses by far. However, I do know that the cost of living has risen in Spain, although it will still be slightly cheaper. And of course there's the lovely weather, which in UK terms is like having a Summer from late February to Early November - and that is something that is really hard to beat!!!

You will meet British (and other) expats of course, but my advice would be - like everything - keep a good balance between fraternising with locals and expats, and please -- learn the language. Spanish is relatively easy compared to most other languages, and you should be able to learn it to a basic conversational level (really valuable for your fraternising with the locals) from any basic Spanish course. I learned most of my Spanish from the "Teach Yourself" series. and those course have vastly improved since I did them 30 years ago.

Hope this helps. Maybe you might like to consider Portugal as well? (although the language is much much more difficult - especially conversationally with regional locals)

Best wishes for your venture.

Flix


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## jeremyinspain

I'm sitting on the terraza, sun is shining, must be close to 20 degrees. It's December 4th. 'Nuff said.


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## mrypg9

jeremyinspain said:


> I'm sitting on the terraza, sun is shining, must be close to 20 degrees. It's December 4th. 'Nuff said.


Only 20C????
You should move south, it must be nearly 30C in direct sun here. We had lunch by our pool and read on our sun loungers for a couple of hours.
Meanwhile, back in the UK...snow is forecast, I believe??


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> Only 20C????
> You should move south, it must be nearly 30C in direct sun here. We had lunch by our pool and read on our sun loungers for a couple of hours.
> Meanwhile, back in the UK...snow is forecast, I believe??


Just 20° in the shade here. Was very pleasant earlier in the sun, but when it goes off it rapidly becomes quite chilly which is a bit of a b*gger when I was just nicely acclimatised to 35°. Hopefully, it will soon be summer again, meanwhile I must cut some more logs to keep the home fires burning (as they say).


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Just 20° in the shade here. Was very pleasant earlier in the sun, but when it goes off it rapidly becomes quite chilly which is a bit of a b*gger when I was just nicely acclimatised to 35°. Hopefully, it will soon be summer again, meanwhile I must cut some more logs to keep the home fires burning (as they say).


Where have you been, Baldy?? Missed your posts lately..

Yes, it does get chilly in the evenings. I spent most of yesterday in a tshirt and jeans but put on a woollen jacket and gloves when we took Our Little Azor out for his evening walkies.
Only seventeen days to the shortest day in the year....it's all up from there!!


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> Where have you been, Baldy?? Missed your posts lately..
> 
> Yes, it does get chilly in the evenings. I spent most of yesterday in a tshirt and jeans but put on a woollen jacket and gloves when we took Our Little Azor out for his evening walkies.
> Only seventeen days to the shortest day in the year....it's all up from there!!


Have been PC-less while some Brit who claims to know all about computers was upgrading it with a larger HDD - BUT each time it came back, it wouldn't work. Even now, although the new HDD is in and working, I usually have to put my hand inside and move a few wires around because something is not right. I did manage to get on the suegra's computer most days to do the quiz and managed to come top last month, but it was just a fluke because so many others weren't playing. Couldn't stay on *her* PC for too long in case she had an e-mail come in - apart from the fact that hers is a Spanish machine configured for American language and keyboard - drives me nuts!


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Have been PC-less while some Brit who claims to know all about computers was upgrading it with a larger HDD - BUT each time it came back, it wouldn't work. Even now, although the new HDD is in and working, I usually have to put my hand inside and move a few wires around because something is not right. I did manage to get on the suegra's computer most days to do the quiz and managed to come top last month, but it was just a fluke because so many others weren't playing. Couldn't stay on *her* PC for too long in case she had an e-mail come in - apart from the fact that hers is a Spanish machine configured for American language and keyboard - drives me nuts!


I have problems with my laptop.....I think it's the operating system, OH says it's me.
The best OS I had was Windows 98......
This is a serious question....how can I get cake crumbs out of my keyboard?
My screen is all splotches...what can I use to clean it?


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> I have problems with my laptop.....I think it's the operating system, OH says it's me.
> The best OS I had was Windows 98......
> This is a serious question....how can I get cake crumbs out of my keyboard?
> My screen is all splotches...what can I use to clean it?


I'm sticking with XP - you can still buy new PCs in Spain with XP and aren't forced to go with the new unworkable crap the MS continue to produce and then replace because it is crap. I, too, liked 98, I also liked 95, I also like BBC B and ZX Spectrum and ZX81. I try to avoid MS as much as I can but when others with whom I need to correspond only use MSOffice, it isn't easy. I do use Open Office for a number of things, in particular when I want to convert a Word document to a PDF (less than a tenth of the file size) if I want to e-mail it - especially our "Bulletin from Castillo de Locubín" which, since it includes photographs can be over 100Mb as MSWord but only 5 Mb as PDF and with over 100 addressees around the world using varyous mail systems, I don't want scores of rejections saying the file is too big.

"Cake crumbs in the keyboard told a tale on you"? wasn't that a pop song for Connie Francis or am I getting confused with Lipstick on your collar? (My Mum used to give me hell!) You don't say whether this is the laptop keyboard or whether you use a separate one (which I find much easier, especially for when I want to use Spanish {accented} characters). If it is the laptop, then this can be very difficult because the key pitch is frequently much tighter and will require professional help. The easiest way if it is an external keyboard requires you to be a little adventurous and start to dismantle the keyboard so that the crumbs can be blown out from the space between the keys and the plate below (n.b. it is not a good idea to use a vacuum cleaner to try to suck {as some kinky men have found - but that is another subject see the old NotW} - you may find you are some key-tops short and have to go digging!

Splotchy screen? If it is the laptop, clean very carefully with a special lcd screen cleaner (you can get it for lcd televisions and they usually come with a bottle thereof). If it is a separate monitor (which I always use since it is much bigger) then you will again need a cleaner for the type of screen. In both cases, if you don't have any proper cleaner, a* very lightly* dampened cloth will sometimes do the trick - it depends on the nature of the splotches and how old they are (they don't make splotches like they used to!)


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> Where have you been, Baldy?? Missed your posts lately..


You missed me? That's nice :hug: - Usually when SWMBO says that, it is because she has thrown something.


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## Flixton

*20*C vs 4*C*



baldilocks said:


> Just 20° in the shade here. Was very pleasant earlier in the sun, but when it goes off it rapidly becomes quite chilly which is a bit of a b*gger when I was just nicely acclimatised to 35°. Hopefully, it will soon be summer again, meanwhile I must cut some more logs to keep the home fires burning (as they say).



Well, it's 3*C today, with strong driving rain (part-sleet) and a cold wind from the north!! We're togged up in woollen hats, wet-weather shoes and thick jumpers underneath padded hooded jackets!!

Can't afford logs here, just gotta make do with a fake-log gas fire, and the central heating is full-on!! And we're not likely to see the sun now till June!!

(AND, I'm still paying 47% in income tax and national insurance (which incidentally seems to have crept up to 9% - thought it was 7%!!!) Beer is £2.50 a pint, petrol now at a cheaper £1.30 per litre. Road tax for a family car - £175 pa., a bottle (70cl) of Soberano or "cuarenta y tres" is approx £18 etc etc)

As someone said "Nuff sed!"


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## Oz to Spain

*Weather and other things*

Hi To All
Glad to still be providing opportunities to everyone to moan about where they are in the world, weather here in Brisbane 22C in the shade at 9.00am , was 33C in the shade last week with 55% humidity, reassured that we made the right move to Oz after listening to your story about cost of living in the UK.
Have now resolved that the pull of Europe is too great in terms of culture , history ,good food and being the centre of the civilised world and want to be back as part of it but don't want the cold and drear of the UK, so we are going to make the best set of choices we can in Spain.
Have learnt a lot from the comments made by experienced 'hands' who have already done it and many thanks for everyones patience, I am sure we will want more advice as we progress down the track and look forward to joining you all out in spain sometime in the next 18 months.
OZ to Spain:clap2:lane:


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> I'm sticking with XP - you can still buy new PCs in Spain with XP and aren't forced to go with the new unworkable crap the MS continue to produce and then replace because it is crap. I, too, liked 98, I also liked 95, I also like BBC B and ZX Spectrum and ZX81. I try to avoid MS as much as I can but when others with whom I need to correspond only use MSOffice, it isn't easy. I do use Open Office for a number of things, in particular when I want to convert a Word document to a PDF (less than a tenth of the file size) if I want to e-mail it - especially our "Bulletin from Castillo de Locubín" which, since it includes photographs can be over 100Mb as MSWord but only 5 Mb as PDF and with over 100 addressees around the world using varyous mail systems, I don't want scores of rejections saying the file is too big.
> 
> "Cake crumbs in the keyboard told a tale on you"? wasn't that a pop song for Connie Francis or am I getting confused with Lipstick on your collar? (My Mum used to give me hell!) You don't say whether this is the laptop keyboard or whether you use a separate one (which I find much easier, especially for when I want to use Spanish {accented} characters). If it is the laptop, then this can be very difficult because the key pitch is frequently much tighter and will require professional help. The easiest way if it is an external keyboard requires you to be a little adventurous and start to dismantle the keyboard so that the crumbs can be blown out from the space between the keys and the plate below (n.b. it is not a good idea to use a vacuum cleaner to try to suck {as some kinky men have found - but that is another subject see the old NotW} - you may find you are some key-tops short and have to go digging!
> 
> Splotchy screen? If it is the laptop, clean very carefully with a special lcd screen cleaner (you can get it for lcd televisions and they usually come with a bottle thereof). If it is a separate monitor (which I always use since it is much bigger) then you will again need a cleaner for the type of screen. In both cases, if you don't have any proper cleaner, a* very lightly* dampened cloth will sometimes do the trick - it depends on the nature of the splotches and how old they are (they don't make splotches like they used to!)


Thankyou for that helpful advice.
I will now oput the vaccuum cleaner away...how did you guess I was going to use it??


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