# Which province?



## nmurshed (Feb 3, 2015)

Dear all

I have planned to gain my masters degree from a Canadian university.

Could someone suggest which province will be a good idea after the new rules?

Some people are saying Saskatchewan is the best place for provincial nominee....
However, most people are in Ontario and my preferred university is Waterloo.

Please advise !


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## conflict73 (Oct 18, 2013)

How have you planned it and what are you going to do?


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## nmurshed (Feb 3, 2015)

I have applied in Uni of Waterloo...and was further applying in Uni or Ottawa & Carleton.
But my friends says after the new rules and LMIA....it is better to move to Saskatchewan or Alberta as the job field and PNP is easier there.


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

First of all, is your undergraduate degree equivalent to a Canadian degree? If not, you will not be offered admission to a Master's program. Second, what subject area are you studying? Some universities are better than others for some subjects. I did my B.A. (Hons) at the University of Waterloo and my Master's down the street at Wilfrid Laurier University in a program that was run jointly with Waterloo. As such, I am _very_ familiar with the University of Waterloo so might be able to offer some advice.


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## nmurshed (Feb 3, 2015)

I am applying for Masters in Electrical Engineering.

I have done my bachelors from Bangladesh, well they have accepted most of my friend's degrees and even if they don't I have already applied for WES.

I was sure about Waterloo, but am worried after the new rules about LMIA, I don't want to come back after investing so much in my masters.


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

If it is engineering Waterloo is the best engineering school in Canada so it is better than the others you mentioned. And shouldn't the quality of the education be your primary concern right now?

As for getting an offer of admission, while they may have accepted your friend's degrees that does not mean that you will be offered a place. Since Waterloo is such a great engineering school competition for places is _extremely_ tough and, to have a chance, you will need to have excellent grades, great references, a solid research proposal, and preferably a professor who has already agreed to supervise your Master's work.


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## nmurshed (Feb 3, 2015)

Am actually applying for MEng (by coursework) and not MSc
My grades are 3.66/4

Hopefully i get an admission offer. waiting for it.

But need to see for future too, right ? What happens after i finish !


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## GWH64 (Nov 22, 2014)

nmurshed said:


> Am actually applying for MEng (by coursework) and not MSc
> My grades are 3.66/4
> 
> Hopefully i get an admission offer. waiting for it.
> ...


You go home or get a job in Canada. I'm not sure why you're stressing over the LMIA though. You should do some research on CEC within EE.


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## nmurshed (Feb 3, 2015)

As per new rules in EE, PR without LMIA is almost impossible..


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

nmurshed said:


> Am actually applying for MEng (by coursework) and not MSc


Doesn't matter, admission is _highly_ competitive and you will need excellent grades and recommendation letters.




> My grades are 3.66/4



That meets the minimum requirements but those offered admission will have grades that far exceed the minimum requirements.





> But need to see for future too, right ? What happens after i finish !



A better education from a better school will improve your prospects. You should be focused on that, not on getting into the country.


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## nmurshed (Feb 3, 2015)

Well, all I can do is hope for the best.
I hope I get admission in any one of the universities...


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

In addition to being admitted to one of the universities you will need to prove that you have the funds to pay the tuition fees (those are much higher for international students than for domestic students) and to support yourself for the duration of your stay.


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## GWH64 (Nov 22, 2014)

colchar said:


> That meets the minimum requirements but those offered admission will have grades that far exceed the minimum requirements.


Are you really saying that 91.5% is a minimum?


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## WestCoastCanadianGirl (Mar 17, 2012)

GWH64 said:


> Are you really saying that 91.5% is a minimum?


Some schools/programs have have a minimum that is far above the one listed in the prospectus, even for domestic students. My brother was once told by a specialty post-graduate program that if he didn't have an "A" average (which he didn't have) then he needn't bother applying.


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

GWH64 said:


> Are you really saying that 91.5% is a minimum?



It meets the minimum requirements (assuming the grades mentioned transfer directly...it is likely that the grades will be converted to a Canadian standard, and not just accepted as they are, so they might be deemed to be lower) but the applicant pool will all have excellent grades which means that, in order to be accepted, one will have to exceed the minimum by a significant amount.

When I graduated from Waterloo my grades were slightly higher than those and that earned me entry to my Master's program. When I graduated from that program I had the equivalent of a 4.0 grade point average (most Canadian schools do not actually use that system) and that earned me entry to my PhD program. In both of those cases, I far exceeded the minimum grades required to apply to my next program, as did every person who was in those graduate programs with me. Meeting the minimum means that they will consider you for admission, but they will offer admission to those with the highest grades so meeting the minimum means little. And at an engineering school as good as Waterloo, the applicants will be applying with grades that exceed the minimum by a significant amount so grades in the lower 90% range might not be good enough.

And as I said, the OP's grades will likely have to be converted to some sort of Canadian equivalent and will not be accepted as they are. The university system in Bangladesh is not equal to Canada's so that will be taken into account when determining whether someone's grades transfer over. If he had come out of an American, British, or whatever university then the grades would be accepted as they are but coming from Bangladesh, they will not be. I was in my graduate program coordinator's office one day while he was going through applications to the MA program and he had a bunch set aside from Asian universities. He said that they had to investigate and find out what kind of schools the students had come from (ie. were they legit universities or degree factories?), and if they were legit they then had to discover whether the programs they had graduated from were rigorous enough to prepare them for a graduate program in a Canadian university, and then figure out what their grades would translate to under the Canadian system.

If the OP and I were applying to the same program here in Canada my university would be accepted as legitimate, my program would be accepted as being rigorous enough, and my grades would be accepted as they are but the OP's wouldn't be as he has come out of a completely different system.


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

WestCoastCanadianGirl said:


> Some schools/programs have have a minimum that is far above the one listed in the prospectus, even for domestic students. My brother was once told by a specialty post-graduate program that if he didn't have an "A" average (which he didn't have) then he needn't bother applying.


Meeting the minimum means that they will take your application (ie. they will cash your cheque for the application fee) but those granted admission will have grades that exceed the minimum requirements by a wide margin.


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## GWH64 (Nov 22, 2014)

colchar said:


> It meets the minimum requirements (assuming the grades mentioned transfer directly...it is likely that the grades will be converted to a Canadian standard, and not just accepted as they are, so they might be deemed to be lower) but the applicant pool will all have excellent grades which means that, in order to be accepted, one will have to exceed the minimum by a significant amount.


The minimum grade requirement for the Waterloo M.Eng is 78%.

Graduate Studies Calendar | University of Waterloo


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

GWH64 said:


> The minimum grade requirement for the Waterloo M.Eng is 78%.
> 
> Graduate Studies Calendar | University of Waterloo



Yes, that is the minimum grade you must have for them to accept and process your application (and that grade is the standard for all Ontario universities to process your application). But the minimum grade required to apply, and the minimum grade required to be granted admission, are two very different things - _very_ different. They have a limited number of places in their program and they make offers of admission only to those with the highest grades (and best references, etc.). Someone with a 78% average can apply, but there is no way in hell that they will ever be offered a place.

According to the University of Waterloo's own figures, the average undergraduate entering grade is 87.7%. That is across the entire university and entering grades will be generally be higher for more competitive programs such as engineering. If that is the average entering grade for undergraduates, what do you think it is for graduate students considering the fact that only the very best students are admitted to graduate programs?

From the University of Waterloo's own website here are the chances of being admitted to their undergraduate engineering programs by grade range:

*Biomedical, Chemical, Mechanical, Mechatronics, Nanotechnology, Software, Systems Design* 

80-85: 2%

85-90: 10%

90-95: 55%

95+: 90%



*Civil, Computer, Electrical, Environmental, Geological, Management* 

80-85: 5%

85-90: 25%

90-95: 70%

95+: 90%


If those are a student's chances of being admitted to an undergraduate program based on their grade range, how much higher do you think a student's grades will have to be in order to have a chance at being offered admission to a graduate program, again considering that only the very best students are admitted to graduate programs?

And as I said, the OP's grades will be adjusted based on the fact that he is coming from a university in Bangladesh which is unlikely to be up to the same standards as a Canadian university. Universities adjust grades for students coming out of Ontario/Canadian high schools (see link below) so if they do that for Ontario/Canadian high schools, they most certainly do it for universities in other regions such as Asia.

You got in with what grade? - Macleans.ca


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## GWH64 (Nov 22, 2014)

colchar said:


> That meets the minimum requirements but those offered admission will have grades that far exceed the minimum requirements.


This is your post that I responded to. Grades at OAC are pretty much all the Admissions Office has got to on for Undergrad admissions.

For a Master's, with the minimum GPA: it's largely up to the candidate to make a strong impression.

I do agree though that it is necessary to have an equivalency evaluation when applying from abroad.


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

GWH64 said:


> This is your post that I responded to. Grades at OAC are pretty much all the Admissions Office has got to on for Undergrad admissions.
> 
> For a Master's, with the minimum GPA: it's largely up to the candidate to make a strong impression.



Having been through the process (at both the Master's and PhD levels) I am _very_ familiar with how it works. Meeting the minimum requirements only means that they will process an application, it does not mean that the student will have any chance of being accepted. It doesn't matter what impression a student makes - someone with grades in the mid 80s is not going to be accepted over a student with grades in the mid 90s. Grades play a _huge_ role, for various reasons, and when processing applications, they sort them by grade range and start with those students who have the best grades. I have been in the room as this was being done, so I have seen it for myself. Those students with the best grades have the best chance of being accepted into a graduate program, especially considering the limited number of students that are accepted each year. For example, when I applied to my PhD program there were about fifty applicants that year and only four of us were accepted. When they are accepting about 8%, or less, of applicants who do you think they are choosing? Do you really think that someone who just meets the minimum requirements stands a chance?

Meeting the minimum requirements doesn't mean anything more than that they will cash your cheque for the application fee and will process your application.


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## GWH64 (Nov 22, 2014)

colchar said:


> Having been through the process (at both the Master's and PhD levels) I am _very_ familiar with how it works.


How many Masters and PhD students have you personally hired and supervised?


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

GWH64 said:


> How many Masters and PhD students have you personally hired and supervised?



Hired and supervised? A few in the real world. Worked with in academia? Dozens and dozens.

And what does hiring them have to do with them being accepted into a graduate program? The graduate programs that I am familiar with only take the very best students. If other programs take lesser students then I am glad that I was never associated with those programs. And having attended Waterloo, I know exactly how high their standards are.


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## GWH64 (Nov 22, 2014)

colchar said:


> Hired and supervised? A few in the real world. Worked with in academia? Dozens and dozens.


What is this "real world" of which you speak? Such language suggests a failed (and embittered) ex-gradstudent. Is that what you are? 

In this real world you've hired a "few" Masters and PhD students.... are you sure you don't mean a few Masters and PhD _graduates_?



> And what does hiring them have to do with them being accepted into a graduate program? The graduate programs that I am familiar with only take the very best students. If other programs take lesser students then I am glad that I was never associated with those programs. And having attended Waterloo, I know exactly how high their standards are.


Except for those second rate Masters programmes offering post grad degrees based solely on course work, being eligible for admission merely means that the candidate meets the minimum criteria for admission. For example B+ , defined as 78% for the MEng at Waterloo.

After that, you'll need to identify a Professor who finds you sufficiently interesting to agree to supervise your graduate degree. That's the tricky part.


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

GWH64 said:


> What is this "real world" of which you speak? Such language suggests a failed (and embittered) ex-gradstudent. Is that what you are?


Hardly. 'Real world' is often used as a facetious term for the non-academic world. It is so common that it borders on being a colloquialism.



> In this real world you've hired a "few" Masters and PhD students.... are you sure you don't mean a few Masters and PhD _graduates_?



No actually, I was referring to both graduates and those who were still in their graduate programs as I have hired and supervised both.





> Except for those second rate Masters programmes offering post grad degrees based solely on course work, being eligible for admission merely means that the candidate meets the minimum criteria for admission. For example B+ , defined as 78% for the MEng at Waterloo.



As I have said repeatedly, meeting the minimum requirements does not mean that someone will be granted admission as even M.A. by coursework programs accept the best applicants. 

And, contrary to your obviously uninformed belief, programs that offer the M.A. by coursework are not second rate. Almost all M.A. programs offer the option of coursework only (for those not planning to, or hoping to, progress to PhD studies), by coursework and Master's Research Paper (a little shorter than a thesis but those students have to take an extra course or two during their program that the thesis students do not have to take), or by thesis. While in the program students take the same classes regardless of whether they are doing their M.A. by coursework, MRP, or thesis - the students are sitting in the exact same classes regardless of which stream they are in.

Also, some M.A. programs are by coursework only - it depends on the discipline - but that does not, necessarily, make them second rate.





> After that, you'll need to identify a Professor who finds you sufficiently interesting to agree to supervise your graduate degree. That's the tricky part.


Usually, but not always.

But none of this is even remotely relevant to the fact that a school like Waterloo, which has arguably the best engineering program in the country, will only accept the best students and that those who just meet the minimum requirements required to apply stand no chance of being admitted - which is what this argument has been about.


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## GWH64 (Nov 22, 2014)

colchar said:


> Hardly. 'Real world' is often used as a facetious term for the non-academic world. It is so common that it borders on being a colloquialism.



No actually, I was referring to both graduates and those who were still in their graduate programs as I have hired and supervised both. [/QUOTE]

Both of which comments carefully avoid my question. Are you an embittered former graduate student?



> And, contrary to your obviously uninformed belief, programs that offer the M.A. by coursework are not second rate. Almost all M.A. programs offer the option of coursework only (for those not planning to, or hoping to, progress to PhD studies), by coursework and Master's Research Paper
> 
> Also, some M.A. programs are by coursework only - it depends on the discipline - but that does not, necessarily, make them second rate.


My opinion is very far from being uninformed. M.A. by coursework is largely limited to those who have no academic ambitions except to become school teachers in whatever discipline they mistakingly chose to study. Studying such disciplines renders them completely unemployable except as teachers. Or as burger flippers.


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

GWH64 said:


> Both of which comments carefully avoid my question. Are you an embittered former graduate student?



I responded when I said 'hardly' as your insinuation that I am an embittered former graduate student is, quite frankly, stupid and is barely worthy of a response.




> My opinion is very far from being uninformed.



Actually your opinion is completely uninformed. Hell, by its very definition an 'opinion' is uninformed. And since you clearly aren't familiar with the definition of 'opinion', here it is:

_1. *A personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty*; 2. A message expressing a belief about something; *the expression of a belief that is held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof*._







> M.A. by coursework is largely limited to those who have no academic ambitions except to become school teachers in whatever discipline they mistakingly chose to study. Studying such disciplines renders them completely unemployable except as teachers. Or as burger flippers.


Your comments are absolutely ridiculous and demonstrate that you know little to nothing about graduate programs. 

Some graduate programs _only_ offer the M.A. by coursework as that is considered to be the standard in the particular discipline. The MLIS degree (Master's of Library and Information Sciences), for example, is almost exclusively offered by coursework only. The Master's of Information in Archives and Records Management is offered almost exclusively by coursework only. Those are just two quick examples, others are easy to find. And don't try to claim that graduates from those programs can only find work as teachers (neither program qualifies one to teach in an Ontario school) or as burger flippers because doing so will only further demonstrate your ignorance and make you look worse than your previous comments already have.

And the University of Waterloo, which has arguably the best engineering program in the country, offers a Master of Engineering by coursework only (in Electrical and Computer Engineering). According to UW's website, these are the requirements for the completion of that particular Master's degree:

"_The degree of Master of Engineering is awarded based on the successful completion of 8 graduate level courses._"

Other programs offer the M.A. via the three streams I mentioned above (coursework, MRP, and thesis) and in all of those students take the exact same classes, regardless of which stream they are in, so those following the coursework option are not receiving any less of an education than those doing a MRP or thesis. 

For you to claim that those who take the M.A. by coursework have no academic ambitions except to become teachers, or that the discipline they have chosen to study renders them unemployable, demonstrates your complete and utter ignorance of graduate education. Considering your complete lack of knowledge in this area one wonders why you insist on continuing to spout off in this thread.


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

And something I forgot to add in my previous post, the University of Toronto offers a LLM degree (Master of Laws) by coursework only:

Degree Requirements: Coursework-Only LLM | University of Toronto Faculty of Law


But I guess those who take that degree only aspire to be teachers or will end up flipping burgers because of their poor choice of academic discipline eh?


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## GWH64 (Nov 22, 2014)

colchar said:


> I responded when I said 'hardly' as your insinuation that I am an embittered former graduate student is, quite frankly, stupid and is barely worthy of a response.


So, you have your PhD and you still work in academia?




> Actually your opinion is completely uninformed. Hell, by its very definition an 'opinion' is uninformed. And since you clearly aren't familiar with the definition of 'opinion', here it is:
> 
> _1. *A personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty*; 2. A message expressing a belief about something; *the expression of a belief that is held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof*._


Condescension is unbecoming, especially from one so young.




> Your comments are absolutely ridiculous and demonstrate that you know little to nothing about graduate programs.


Have it your own way then. But I'd tend to think that my being over 48 since graduating with a PhD and having supervised at least 30 Masters students and 20+ PhD students during my career, none of them in either category degrees by coursework, I really should know better.

But enough, I grow bored with you and your rancour.


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

GWH64 said:


> So, you have your PhD and you still work in academia?


Not even remotely relevant but I switched from the PhD program into another graduate program, from which I graduated, because the job market for professors has become so bad.

I left the PhD program in good standing and will return to finish the degree, but I wanted to do something else that was more marketable before finishing the PhD.






> Condescension is unbecoming, especially from one so young.



It isn't condescension, it is a fact - that is the definition of 'opinion'. And considering you previous comments it is incredibly ironic for you to be labeling what someone else says as condescension. 

You really shouldn't make assumptions as I am nowhere near as young as you seem to think I am.




> Have it your own way then. But I'd tend to think that my being over 48 since graduating with a PhD and having supervised at least 30 Masters students and 20+ PhD students during my career, none of them in either category degrees by coursework, I really should know better.



You clearly do not know better, and the links I provided prove that. In fact, you don't know anywhere near as much as you think you do. There are plenty of M.A. programs that are done by coursework only. Those planning to advance to PhD studies do not undertake the M.A. by coursework, but for you to claim that is somehow a lesser degree says a lot about you, and none of it good.

As for you allegedly having a PhD and being a professor (I am assuming since you claim to have supervised Masters and PhD students), you clearly aren't in a field that requires writing skills considering the atrocious grammar in this sentence:

"_But I'd tend to think that my being over 48 since graduating with a PhD and having supervised at least 30 Masters students and 20+ PhD students during my career, none of them in either category degrees by coursework_"





> But enough, I grow bored with you and your rancour.



And yet you continue to comment................


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## GWH64 (Nov 22, 2014)

> Not even remotely relevant but I switched from the PhD program into another graduate program, from which I graduated, because the job market for professors has become so bad.
> 
> I left the PhD program in good standing and will return to finish the degree, but I wanted to do something else that was more marketable before finishing the PhD.


Well I'm pleased that you've finally clarified that. So that means, I suppose, that you have zero experience of the hiring process for Grad students from the perspective of a potential supervisor.





> It isn't condescension, it is a fact - that is the definition of 'opinion'. And considering *you* previous comments it is incredibly ironic for you to be labeling what someone else says as condescension.
> 
> You really shouldn't make assumptions as I am nowhere near as young as you seem to think I am.


Ahem wrt to grammar, I'm sorry about your advancing age. It happens.



> You clearly do not know better, and the links I provided prove that. In fact, you don't know anywhere near as much as you think you do. There are plenty of M.A. programs that are done by coursework only. *[Those planning to advance to PhD studies do not undertake the M.A. by coursework, but for you to claim that is somehow a lesser degree says a lot about you, and none of it good. *


This was my main point. Oh, and yet you did exactly that?




> As for you allegedly having a PhD and being a professor (I am assuming since you claim to have supervised Masters and PhD students), you clearly aren't in a field that requires writing skills considering the atrocious grammar in this sentence:
> 
> "_But I'd tend to think that my being over 48 since graduating with a PhD and having supervised at least 30 Masters students and 20+ PhD students during my career, none of them in either category degrees by coursework_"


Allegedly? I know this is the internet, and that here everything is to a greater or lesser extent an allegation, so to clarify, pedanticalyI don't actually have a PhD, I actually have a D.Phil (Oxon) obtained in 1976 when I was 26 years old.

Its now, allegedly, 2015, so that makes that some 48 and a bit years ago. I've been a tenured Full Professor since 1990. Most, but not all of that time in Canada.

I hope that helps.


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