# Non lucrative visa and remote working



## Odoyle (Dec 17, 2020)

Hi everyone,

I'm strongly considering leaving the UK for Spain, post-Brexit (bad timing I know).

There's a chance that my current company (full time/PAYE) will allow me to work there, remotely.

I've read a lot of articles about the NLV but I can't seem to get a clear answer on whether it's possible to work remotely - legally at least - and it seems that certain consulates are turning down applicants who state they plan to work remotely.

For what it's worth, I have the savings needed to show that I can support myself, so I don't need to declare my work income for that reason.

But it seems there might be implications around where tax is paid.

I'd really appreciate any advice on this, whether it would be possible to maintain a full-time UK job on a NLV / whether any other options would be available to me.

Thanks in advance


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

Work is work and Spain makes no discrimination between doing it in front of a computer or physically labouring say in a shop or a factory therefore if you plan to work in Spain then by definition you do not meet the reqiurements for the NLV, it's a simple contradiction.

Your only option, and it's a brief one now, is to become (or at least successfully apply to become) Spanish resident before Dec 31st. but even then you cannot work remotely and say nowt, work will still be work. 

Beyond that as a non EU national you will need a visa and lying (by omission) to obtain a NLV would be extremely inadvisable.

Don't think the Spanish taxman won't catch you if you flaunt the rules, he will and when he does you could well find yourself expelled from the country and prohibited from return, and likely with a substantial fine as a parting gesture.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I don't know about the visa side of things (although I suspect that an NLV will prohibit any kind of work, including remote work as Mata Mata says), but you need to make sure that your employer has taken professional advice also.

If you are an employee of a UK legal entity, will your physical presence (and hence tax residency) in Spain create a Permanent Establishment of that entity in Spain? Will they then be liable for corporation tax in Spain? If they suddenly find that you remote working in Spain costs them in unrecoverable taxes, they're not likely to be happy about it! 

And what about Social Security? How will you be covered?


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## Odoyle (Dec 17, 2020)

MataMata said:


> Work is work and Spain makes no discrimination between doing it in front of a computer or physically labouring say in a shop or a factory therefore if you plan to work in Spain then by definition you do not meet the reqiurements for the NLV, it's a simple contradiction.
> 
> Your only option, and it's a brief one now, is to become (or at least successfully apply to become) Spanish resident before Dec 31st. but even then you cannot work remotely and say nowt, work will still be work.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the clarification Mata Mata.

How would I go about applying to become a resident before 31/12? What would I actually need to do, asides from be in the country?

And if this doesn't work, do you think that a freelance visa would be applicable in my situation?


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## Odoyle (Dec 17, 2020)

Overandout said:


> I don't know about the visa side of things (although I suspect that an NLV will prohibit any kind of work, including remote work as Mata Mata says), but you need to make sure that your employer has taken professional advice also.
> 
> If you are an employee of a UK legal entity, will your physical presence (and hence tax residency) in Spain create a Permanent Establishment of that entity in Spain? Will they then be liable for corporation tax in Spain? If they suddenly find that you remote working in Spain costs them in unrecoverable taxes, they're not likely to be happy about it!
> 
> And what about Social Security? How will you be covered?


Thanks for the reply.

I suspect my employers wouldn't want to set up a Spanish entity, but we do have people working for us in other countries as representatives - these individuals have their own companies set up and invoice my employer.

I'm wondering whether I might be able to do the same thing, on a freelance visa.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

OK, here goes! I didn't want to open this can of worms on the forum, but it fits nicely here:

Your company is obviously aware that it is better for them to have foreign workers (off-shore) as third party service providers rather than employees. If this is true for you also then you would need to be self employed in Spain, or set up a company to invoice the services provided.

There are many comments on this forum which allude to the fact that to be "autonomo" in Spain, you need to have more than one client. And whilst on the face of things this is true, the reason for this is to avoid the economic dependency through false self employed status, i.e. a cheat by Spanish employers to pass the burden of Social Security, holiday / sick pay, insurance etc down to the worker. This is understandably prohibited.

But if you are working as an "autonomo" for a foreign company, this principle of false autonomo doesn't exist, because the "employer" is not a Spanish entity and is therefore not "cheating" the state.

I would be interested to see if any autonomo in Spain has had to argue this point and what the outcome was, but I would like t think that a good lawyer could make this work, even with the single client set-up as long as the client is a foreign entity and the services provided to that entity for use outside of Spain.

It does raise the question of VAT though... what will happen with VAT on services invoiced from an EU country to UK after January? I really don't know the answer to that. Maybe even Boris doesn't either...


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

Odoyle said:


> Thanks for the clarification Mata Mata.
> 
> How would I go about applying to become a resident before 31/12? What would I actually need to do, asides from be in the country?
> 
> And if this doesn't work, do you think that a freelance visa would be applicable in my situation?


Here's the UK gov guide to Spanish residency BEFORE 31 Dec.

Spain: register your residency

Haven't heard of a 'freelance visa'.


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## Odoyle (Dec 17, 2020)

MataMata said:


> Here's the UK gov guide to Spanish residency BEFORE 31 Dec.
> 
> Spain: register your residency
> 
> Haven't heard of a 'freelance visa'.


Thanks for the link.

It seems that I would be able to apply for residency electronically, once in Spain. But I'm not sure whether the 31st deadline is in relation to me submitting an application or it being approved.

If it's the latter, surely there won't be enough time, even if I submit the documents online.

There is a freelance/autonomo visa which would allow/require me to register for tax and social security contributions in Spain, without the need for a corporate sponsor.

My main concern is whether there would be any major implications for my UK employer if I was to do this. I'm not very savvy when it comes to taxes as I've always been on a PAYE contract.


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## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

Odoyle said:


> Thanks for the link.
> 
> It seems that I would be able to apply for residency electronically, once in Spain. But I'm not sure whether the 31st deadline is in relation to me submitting an application or it being approved.
> 
> ...


If you are here and can prove it, then you don't need to have applied before the 31st. You just have to be able to prove you were here and fulfilled all the criteria needed. You have until the end of June 2021 to register.

You've not said where you are, but having just been through the residency process here in the Alicante area, the following is required.

3 months Spanish bank statements detailing daily outgoings and showing a balance of €9000 during that time (it has to be kept at that level)
Full photocopy of your passport, every single page.
Padron cert (this is a hotbed of contention) but Alicante need it. It must also be less than 3 months old and show your current Spanish address.
A letter from the bank stating that you are the account holder. This and the statements MUST be stamped by the bank and signed.
Full healthcare with no copay (showing a years full payment) Healthcare here is from jan 01 to dec 31. You will need a full copy of the policy and the certificate of insurance.

We used a local solicitor and after filing online we had our residency approved with 2 weeks. It was approved at the end of November as we arrived in mid August.

You will however have an issue if you drive. You need to start the exchange process before the 31st or you will need to take a Spanish driving test.
there is a form you can fill in that starts the process and then you can get the face to face appointment once your residency has been approved.


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## Odoyle (Dec 17, 2020)

Barriej said:


> If you are here and can prove it, then you don't need to have applied before the 31st. You just have to be able to prove you were here and fulfilled all the criteria needed. You have until the end of June 2021 to register.
> 
> You've not said where you are, but having just been through the residency process here in the Alicante area, the following is required.
> 
> ...



Oh wow. So I could literally jump on a flight and as long as I stay in Spain and register by June, I'd be allowed to stay?

Do I need to declare anything at the airport? Or is it literally just the case of booking a one way ticket?

I haven't firmly decided on location but it would likely be Barcelona or Valencia.

Presumably all of the documents/proof could be sorted out once I arrive in Spain, providing everything is submitted well before June?

I don't have a Spanish bank account, but have savings in the UK so there shouldn't be a problem with that.

Thanks for all of the info


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Do you not need to have started the process by 31st as opposed to just arriving? And I have a feeling that it doesn't mean that you take your time until June I think that is for people who have been delayed in the application procedure?


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## Odoyle (Dec 17, 2020)

kaipa said:


> Do you not need to have started the process by 31st as opposed to just arriving? And I have a feeling that it doesn't mean that you take your time until June I think that is for people who have been delayed in the application procedure?


That's what I'm trying to ascertain, really. And how far in to the process do you need to be by 31st?

I'd register as soon as I was physically able, so the June deadline certainly shouldn't be a problem. But I do want to know whether there would be any other issues.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

TBH it is difficult to say. One of the problems is that different offices seem to do things differently. I very much doubt that showing an air ticket will be accepted as proof you were living here. I would imagine they would want to see rental contracts, bank accounts, etc to prove you had settled. Some offices want to see 3 months of accounts before accepting you. Besides you only have around about a week and Spain is tightening restrictions within communities so everything is a bit more complicated.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

The 'June deadline' doesn't apply to Spain. Spain opeted for the 'Declaratory System' of registration, and you have to regsiter within three months of arrival. The 'June deadline' applies to countries which opted for the 'Constitutive System'. 

You would need to prove that you were actively resident before the end of the withdrawal period. Arriving on Dec 31st isn't likely to be accepted. There are already people being refused when the powers that be doubt that they actually have been living here. We're hearing of people 'getting the ball rolling' & submitting evidence electronically via a gestor before coming to Spain. TPTB aren't stupid & are wanting evidence that people were here when the application went in. 

Proving that you do live in Spain in theory should be simple enough, but without a Spanish bank account, being on the padrón before the end of the withdrawal period, etc., I suspect it would be an uphill battle - & a losing one.


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## Odoyle (Dec 17, 2020)

kaipa said:


> TBH it is difficult to say. One of the problems is that different offices seem to do things differently. I very much doubt that showing an air ticket will be accepted as proof you were living here. I would imagine they would want to see rental contracts, bank accounts, etc to prove you had settled. Some offices want to see 3 months of accounts before accepting you. Besides you only have around about a week and Spain is tightening restrictions within communities so everything is a bit more complicated.


Thank you. This is what I'd expected sadly.

It seems that the freelance visa is the only viable option. Do you know how this might work, with one (non-Spanish) employer? 

I'd want to make the process as simple and attractive as possible for my employer, and I'd like to understand any obligations they'd have around tax etc. I don't mind Netting a little less in the Spanish system as my salary should still be a good one in Spain.


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## Odoyle (Dec 17, 2020)

xabiaxica said:


> The 'June deadline' doesn't apply to Spain. Spain opeted for the 'Declaratory System' of registration, and you have to regsiter within three months of arrival. The 'June deadline' applies to countries which opted for the 'Constitutive System'.
> 
> You would need to prove that you were actively resident before the end of the withdrawal period. Arriving on Dec 31st isn't likely to be accepted. There are already people being refused when the powers that be doubt that they actually have been living here. We're hearing of people 'getting the ball rolling' & submitting evidence electronically via a gestor before coming to Spain. TPTB aren't stupid & are wanting evidence that people were here when the application went in.
> 
> Proving that you do live in Spain in theory should be simple enough, but without a Spanish bank account, being on the padrón before the end of the withdrawal period, etc., I suspect it would be an uphill battle - & a losing one.


Thanks for the response.

Do you have any advice on working remotely with a freelance visa?


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I have no idea about the freelance visa. Never heard of it. I would have thought that you would need the non-lucrative visa. Either way it basically would come down either you setting yourself up as autonomo or your company setting up some system to pay into the Spanish SS. However I imagine the main obstacle would be getting the 3rd country residency which would mean meeting the financial requirements etc which will be much higher than when we had free movement. Maybe you should talk with a Spanish lawyer and then your company to ascertain what is exactly needed.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Odoyle said:


> Thanks for the response.
> 
> Do you have any advice on working remotely with a freelance visa?


None at all I'm afraid. I didn't know that there was such a thing.

I would suggest that you contact the Spain Visa application centre in London with your questions. 




> *Spain Visa Application Centre*
> Lower Ground Floor, Cromwell House
> 14 Fulwood Place, London WC1V 6HZ
> Tel: 020 3129 1651
> ...


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## Odoyle (Dec 17, 2020)

kaipa said:


> I have no idea about the freelance visa. Never heard of it. I would have thought that you would need the non-lucrative visa. Either way it basically would come down either you setting yourself up as autonomo or your company setting up some system to pay into the Spanish SS. However I imagine the main obstacle would be getting the 3rd country residency which would mean meeting the financial requirements etc which will be much higher than when we had free movement. Maybe you should talk with a Spanish lawyer and then your company to ascertain what is exactly needed.


Thanks Kaipa.

I definitely intend to consult with a Spanish lawyer and have asked for a consultation.

The problem I see with the Non-Lucrative is that it doesn't allow you to work and that you seemingly need to see out the whole year before you're able to switch to autonomo or another work visa.

I don't mind being out of work for a few months, but I think I'd go mad over a year.


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## Odoyle (Dec 17, 2020)

xabiaxica said:


> None at all I'm afraid. I didn't know that there was such a thing.
> 
> I would suggest that you contact the Spain Visa application centre in London with your questions.


Thank you. I wondered how open you can be with the application centre. I wouldn't want the jeopardize an application by saying the wrong thing.

Do they usually offer advice?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Odoyle said:


> Thank you. I wondered how open you can be with the application centre. I wouldn't want the jeopardize an application by saying the wrong thing.
> 
> Do they usually offer advice?


I don't know about London - I don't know anyone with experience of them there yet.
Some of the others around the world will give advice though.


You just need to tell them what you want to do. They should tell you if it's achievable.

Whatever you do - be upfront & truthful. They will be the ones issuing the visa - & you'd have all sorts of trouble if one were to be issued & other information later came to light that would have prevented that.


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