# Looking To Move To SA



## RachelandSue (Feb 18, 2011)

We are a young family, we have one dream to obtain out of life and that is to get the hell out of the UK! :clap2:

We would love to bring up our daughter (who is three) in SA, we have no idea where to start - a pipe dream to some? :confused2:

Anyone who would be happy to advise us, offer us a job and home (lol - sorry don't ask - eh?)  would be gratefully received!

We would like to live in the eastern side or maybe be very english and go and live in Grahamstown?? 

What advice is out there??


Thanking you all in advance 


Rachel & Sue
x


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

RachelandSue said:


> We are a young family, we have one dream to obtain out of life and that is to get the hell out of the UK! :clap2:
> 
> We would love to bring up our daughter (who is three) in SA, we have no idea where to start - a pipe dream to some? :confused2:
> 
> ...


 Would it be possible for you to list a few things that has drawn you to South Africa (the THAT is why I wanna go there feeling) or made you hate the UK (THIS is why I wanna leave this hell hole)? It will help in order to give good advice.


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## RachelandSue (Feb 18, 2011)

vegasboy said:


> Would it be possible for you to list a few things that has drawn you to South Africa (the THAT is why I wanna go there feeling) or made you hate the UK (THIS is why I wanna leave this hell hole)? It will help in order to give good advice.


Okay, I don't want to curse the UK too much as I am a British person and I don't think it is right to down tread your own but... I can't stand it anymore, the cost of living, petrol and food and rent have gone through the roof here, the standard of education, you have to fight tooth and nail to get your child into a half decent school and then pray to God they learn something and all the standards reports weren't just fabrications of what is really going on. We will never be able to buy our own property here as they won't lend you any money and my partner has a really well paid good job with Asda (Walmart to you guys!) but unless you have 25% in cash to put down just forget it!!! And don't even get me started on the bloody weather! (Sorry I went on a bit!)

Okay South Africa, this is all about me, my partner doesn't care we live in the world but I love SA not that I have ever been there but that is all going to change this year we are saving every penny to come over and just see a bit so we can get a feel of where we want to live. From the research I have done cost of living is cheaper (bar broadband - it is shocking how much you guys have to pay for that), the education standards are amazing, I could have our daughter privately educated in SA for a year for the same money as it would cost me for SIX WEEKS here with a much higher standard!!! Shocking. LOL and don't get me started on the weather!!

I will do anything to get us out there I know the crime levels are high and being two women I am sure we are even more at risk - but is it really that bad? Is it any worse than the USA, London etc I am thinking I probably need to complete a degree so that I can teach which seems to be one of the ways to get in which means we wouldn't be able to get out there for three years as I only have a teaching assts. qualification with early years tagged on. 

Thanks for taking an interest

Regards

Rachel
x


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

RachelandSue said:


> Okay, I don't want to curse the UK too much as I am a British person and I don't think it is right to down tread your own but... I can't stand it anymore, the cost of living, petrol and food and rent have gone through the roof here, the standard of education, you have to fight tooth and nail to get your child into a half decent school and then pray to God they learn something and all the standards reports weren't just fabrications of what is really going on. We will never be able to buy our own property here as they won't lend you any money and my partner has a really well paid good job with Asda (Walmart to you guys!) but unless you have 25% in cash to put down just forget it!!! And don't even get me started on the bloody weather! (Sorry I went on a bit!)
> 
> Okay South Africa, this is all about me, my partner doesn't care we live in the world but I love SA not that I have ever been there but that is all going to change this year we are saving every penny to come over and just see a bit so we can get a feel of where we want to live. From the research I have done cost of living is cheaper (bar broadband - it is shocking how much you guys have to pay for that), the education standards are amazing, I could have our daughter privately educated in SA for a year for the same money as it would cost me for SIX WEEKS here with a much higher standard!!! Shocking. LOL and don't get me started on the weather!!
> 
> ...


OK, do you have a job in SA? Employment is a world wide problem.Teaching assistants would not be a highly paid profession and I am not sure whether there are any vacancies. I am not being negative, but realistic.
It is cheaper to live here, I live here and I have lived in the UK for almost 11 years, so I think I know what I am talking about.
How much do you pay for private education if I may ask? I know of a specific private school ( junior school) that charges about £400 per month per child.
One does not "leave" a country for another without knowing what is awaiting you, internet information is not the be all and end all of knowledge. How can you LOVE South Africa if you have never been here.... I love it because I was born and bred here and I live here ( again )
Sorry if my reply comes across as being negative, but your reasoning does not seem sound to me!
:confused2:


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## RachelandSue (Feb 18, 2011)

Johanna said:


> OK, do you have a job in SA? Employment is a world wide problem.Teaching assistants would not be a highly paid profession and I am not sure whether there are any vacancies. I am not being negative, but realistic.
> It is cheaper to live here, I live here and I have lived in the UK for almost 11 years, so I think I know what I am talking about.
> How much do you pay for private education if I may ask? I know of a specific private school ( junior school) that charges about £400 per month per child.
> One does not "leave" a country for another without knowing what is awaiting you, internet information is not the be all and end all of knowledge. How can you LOVE South Africa if you have never been here.... I love it because I was born and bred here and I live here ( again )
> ...


You do not sound negative - look this is my dream! I am looking for advice on how to make it a reality - it is good to have an all round view of things.
We could not possibly afford to privately educate our child here not in our wildest dreams. 
As for a job, I may have to extend my education here and put my dream on hold for a few years so that I could teach abroad this is my thinking. Thank you for your input it has been gratefully received!

Rachel
x


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

RachelandSue said:


> You do not sound negative - look this is my dream! I am looking for advice on how to make it a reality - it is good to have an all round view of things.
> We could not possibly afford to privately educate our child here not in our wildest dreams.
> As for a job, I may have to extend my education here and put my dream on hold for a few years so that I could teach abroad this is my thinking. Thank you for your input it has been gratefully received!
> 
> ...


You will need to have a work permit, just like people moving to the UK need a work permit.
Can your partner work here, is she on the list for skills shortages?

Anyway, if you do not have dreams, life becomes very dull!!
Hope your plans work out!
SA is a great country, there is a lot of crime, depending on where you live...... almost like the south side of Chigago!


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## Stevan (Jun 30, 2009)

Hi 
Ok i will defend peoples right to live where they like. and you should seek advice. i now find myself on new ground as this is the first time i have said this on here. DONT DO IT, DONT SPEND ANY MONEY TRYING TO DO IT.

I love south africa and would never move back. i visited regularly over 10 years. every time i left it got harder. we decided we may want to move. we sat with a bottle of wine and listed all the resons we wanted to go all the reasons not to go. when we were sober we did it again. for us it was go. you have never been here. where are you going to settle, you can not make a balanced decision you never been here. 

South africa in parts is heart breakingly lovely.
south africa in parts is heart breakingly ugly.

please visit look arround. come at diffrent times of year and to different areas. after a few years if you are still sure then go for it


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## emmacee (Feb 24, 2011)

RachelandSue said:


> We are a young family, we have one dream to obtain out of life and that is to get the hell out of the UK! :clap2:
> 
> We would love to bring up our daughter (who is three) in SA, we have no idea where to start - a pipe dream to some? :confused2:
> 
> ...



Hi Rachel,

I am in the same situation as you
I live in the UK and hate it here! Me and my partner are going to move to South Africa next year.

She is South African and has lived in london for about 7 years. I am British and just hate it here!!! She is from Joberg but we are not moving there.

We are going to move to cape town where the lifestyle is better in every sense of the word. Its very, very, very gay friendly - i was extremely surprised when I went there and a lot of people are gay there and comfortable in the surroundings if that makes sense. 


Yes the crime is bad but the way i see it, theres crime every where. You just need to be cautious and watch yourself 10000% times more than you do in London. You will know exactly where the dangerous places are and really theres no reason why you would need to go there! You don't walk around the streets at night or in the day and must have a car no matter what.

In terms of places to reside - i recommend Cape town purely because of the lifestyle and family life there would be amazing. Its got lovely beaches and lots of nice family friendly places to go and visit. 

I think its a struggle with jobs though. I know for me I am going to be buying a business as even with all of my experience, there is no way I could get a job, especially when a lot of South Africans struggle to find work let alone a British person!!

It is a lot cheaper to live in South Africa but if you are not going to start a business up or buy a business then you must be prepared to be out of work for a good few months - unless you are very very lucky!

Finally, I think i read that you have not been to SA?? You must go visit before you commit to living there!! Its very different. Its a huge culture shock. 
I think south africa is a stunning place and i cant wait to move out of the gritty UK but I am also prepared that at any time when I am out there ( as awful as this is .. but it is true), i could be a victim of crime, i could get my house burgled, i could get my car windows smashed in while im driving for someone to take my bag, i could be hijacked - but then again all of this could happen in London as well!!

Hope this helps a little bit?!

Em


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

You are in for a big shock..... Good luck.


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## emmacee (Feb 24, 2011)

Halo said:


> You are in for a big shock..... Good luck.


Hi Halo,

I have been reading the threads on here as I have only signed up on this site recently.

Most of your comments are very negative about SA. Can i ask why? Are you South African yourself or have you lived there and had a bad experience?

Thanks,

Em.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

emmacee said:


> Hi Halo,
> 
> I have been reading the threads on here as I have only signed up on this site recently.
> 
> ...


Spend 20 years there, from the miserable apartheid years though to the beginning of the disastrous ANC years before I left. (only because I was old enough to) - South Africa is a beautiful country only spoilt by the people.


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## kiwifruity (Dec 5, 2010)

Halo said:


> Spend 20 years there, from the miserable apartheid years though to the beginning of the disastrous ANC years before I left. (only because I was old enough to) - South Africa is a beautiful country only spoilt by the people.



My sister-in-law, brother-in-law, nieces, nephews are in South Africa - how dare you say such trash - by the people, you mean.. as in all??  Are you for real? lol.....oh, boy, something really BAD happened to you there.......and you have carried out your resentment. Yes, we are all allowed 'free speech' but when it comes to disrespecting ALL the inhabitants of a Country - because of criminals which 'prey' on the good. You sad, sad person.....

BTW - is that kid of yours trying to strangle the other one - or is it just playful banter.......maybe having a Mum like you - would drive one of them to do just that one day. You are a pitiful, hatred person - feel sorry for your kids. Do YOU have any beloved family members still there in SA? - if so, are they ALL bad???? - If you do NOT have any family members there - WHY THE HELL ARE YOU STILL CHECKING OUT SOUTH AFRICAN posts? Get a life! Good Karma is very far from your reach - and you call yourself 'Halo' as in ANGELIC - Pleeeez! I have just now come across some of your other posts - and comments to forum members......you need more TLC! to make up for what you obviously missed out on during your childhood years! You mentioned two key words in that hateful reply of yours, miserable and disastrous, hello, ring any bells, as to YOU and YOUR life now?? I hope your children do not turn out like you.....God help them!!! I am a very chilled out girl - but DO NOT disrespect my family members who are in SA!!

Good luck You need loads of it!!:clap2:


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

kiwifruity said:


> My sister-in-law, brother-in-law, nieces, nephews are in South Africa - how dare you say such trash - by the people, you mean.. as in all??  Are you for real? lol.....oh, boy, something really BAD happened to you there.......and you have carried out your resentment. Yes, we are all allowed 'free speech' but when it comes to disrespecting ALL the inhabitants of a Country - because of criminals which 'prey' on the good. You sad, sad person.....
> 
> BTW - is that kid of yours trying to strangle the other one - or is it just playful banter.......maybe having a Mum like you - would drive one of them to do just that one day. You are a pitiful, hatred person - feel sorry for your kids. Do YOU have any beloved family members still there in SA? - if so, are they ALL bad???? - If you do NOT have any family members there - WHY THE HELL ARE YOU STILL CHECKING OUT SOUTH AFRICAN posts? Get a life! Good Karma is very far from your reach - and you call yourself 'Halo' as in ANGELIC - Pleeeez! I have just now come across some of your other posts - and comments to forum members......you need more TLC! to make up for what you obviously missed out on during your childhood years! You mentioned two key words in that hateful reply of yours, miserable and disastrous, hello, ring any bells, as to YOU and YOUR life now?? I hope your children do not turn out like you.....God help them!!! I am a very chilled out girl - but DO NOT disrespect my family members who are in SA!!
> 
> Good luck You need loads of it!!:clap2:


Many thanks


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## kiwifruity (Dec 5, 2010)

Halo said:


> Many thanks


No worries, sleep on it, and give it some serious thought!


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

kiwifruity said:


> No worries, sleep on it, and give it some serious thought!


Just have....(gone). And when you understand South Africa and its people over the years.... you just let me know, as its seems you don't have a clue - Its cool as most don't understand what really went on in SA over the last 40 years.


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

:focus::focus::focus:


We are all free to our own opinions, but please stick to the topic.

Perhaps you should agree to disagree.

I have lived here far longer than Halo, spent about 11 years in the UK ( and I am a British citizen so I can return to the UK when and if I want to ) ... my preference is to live in SA.


So please people, stop bickering!!!


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Good for you..... I just hope you can return if you wanted.... My guess is NO which is the case of most of the folk. (unless its to a council flat in FARNBOROUGH)

Not bickering, just saying it like it is, plenty of great folk in SA but there is so much HATE. People need to know this - I am sure you have heard it round the BBQ there.


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## kiwifruity (Dec 5, 2010)

Johanna said:


> :focus::focus::focus:
> 
> 
> We are all free to our own opinions, but please stick to the topic.
> ...



Yes Johanna, you are so right. All good now, needed to vent  So not worth getting our knickers in a knot. Ta!


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## kiwifruity (Dec 5, 2010)

RachelandSue said:


> We are a young family, we have one dream to obtain out of life and that is to get the hell out of the UK! :clap2:
> 
> We would love to bring up our daughter (who is three) in SA, we have no idea where to start - a pipe dream to some? :confused2:
> 
> ...



Hiya Rachel&Sue


The Eastern Cape is beautiful, my Sister-in-Law lives in a Village called Kidds Beach - near East London, it is breathtakingly beautiful, very hip, trendy and arty. But then again that whole area is great. Weather, tops! Rentals can be slightly pricey she was telling me - but then again, where in the world is it not Stunning beaches for your little girl to run and play.

Here's wishing you girls everything of the best regarding your 'pipe dream'...:clap2: Hope it all works out quickly.


Roxy


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## ksmith (Jan 27, 2011)

Just spent ages tping out a reply, then it wouldn't let me post it. AAARRRGGGHHH! So, the Reader's Digest version!

Rachelandsue- let us know what you decide. I'm a Canadian married to a South African, been living in London for over seven years now. We've thought about going to SA but because of a few factors, decided not to. One of the factors was the crime. Home invasions and car hijackings are much more frequent there, and these often end in violence. My husband has a list as long as his arm of people he knows that were victims of crime; in a few instances there was violence (stabbings and a rape). My own husband was hijacked and most recently, his granny was held up as she was working in her garden (the first time she was robbed, they cut a hole in her roof!)
As you've probably figured out already, this is a very emotional issue and YOU will have to make your own decisions. In our case, my husband says crime here, in the UK, is child's play as compared to there. If it weren't, we'd be there. So, let us know what you decide!

KIWIFRUITY- wow, your rant against Halo was over the top. You are most definitely not a chilled out girl. To say that Halo is a hateful, pitiful person and must've missed something in his childhood, etc, etc, is VERY personal and not acceptable. I can't help but think that such personal attacks against other members are against forum rules? His opinion is just very different than yours.
Halo- don't worry about karma! It doesn't exist. If it did, that old geezer Mugabe would be dead, not living a life of luxury, while millions suffer under his hand.


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## kiwifruity (Dec 5, 2010)

Hi R&S - just chatted to my SIL and I asked her about rentals.....you are looking at roughly R4000 for a 'cottage style' home in Grahamstown. Fully furnished homes, which are slightly harder to find, you are looking at R5000/6000 a month.

Another stunning area to look at is Kenton-on Sea - +- 50 kms from Grahamstown on the beautiful coastline......'Google' it and have a look at the sheer beauty of this little Town......


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## ksmith (Jan 27, 2011)

According to google search, I found the following posts from last year. It seems crime, of a more serious nature, is increasing in Grahamstown. Google and see. From what I found on some articles I just googled:


From newspaper, Grahamstown Now, August 2010:
Crime in Grahamstown increased during the World Cup and National Arts Festival and was higher than in previous years. Captain Milanda Coetzer of *Grahamstown's Crime Intelligence Unit has warned that 'contact crimes'' were also on the rise.*

*‘Contact crime’ is the catch-all word for incidents such as murder, attempted murder, rape, assault and aggravated robbery. It is this type of crime that, according to Coetzer, is most commonly reported in Grahamstown. Police statistics show that there were 46 contact crime cases reported in July alone.*

(There is more to this article). 
Also from a Grahamstown resident on a forum:

As I read each week about more and more rapes occurring, and see palisade and barbed-wire fencing proliferating around us, I wonder how people feel now about 'crime-free' Grahamstown. Do you notice that things are heating up, or do you still think we've got 'a lot of petty theft'?


RachelandSue, when checking out places to live, google to see crime in each area.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

ksmith said:


> KIWIFRUITY- wow, your rant against Halo was over the top. You are most definitely not a chilled out girl. To say that Halo is a hateful, pitiful person and must've missed something in his childhood, etc, etc, is VERY personal and not acceptable. I can't help but think that such personal attacks against other members are against forum rules? His opinion is just very different than yours.
> Halo- don't worry about karma! It doesn't exist. If it did, that old geezer Mugabe would be dead, not living a life of luxury, while millions suffer under his hand.


Its all good, I understand why people get upset and its normally through ignorance..... I have live there and experience all types of events from a-z... And I know how each group feel about the other which is one of the reasons (of which there are many) I am no longer in SA.

My main objective is to be objective about the realities of living in SA - My feelings of the place should bear no weight - just the statistics and the reality of living in an occupied country.


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## ksmith (Jan 27, 2011)

Halo- you have a very understanding attitude! I guess I was just taken aback by her rant at you- I know on other forums a serious warning would've been given ! 

This topic is definitely an emotional one; even my husband's family is divided by this. Many of his family/friends have gone to Oz or elsewhere, but there are still a few remaining in SA who say "crime happens everywhere" or that it is exaggerated (they still have burglar guards, high fences and armed response, though!) 

I have done A LOT of research on this topic though, and have come to the conclusion that South Africa has a serious problem with crime, the most worrisome to me being home invasions and then hijackings. It also seems that the 'contact crimes', mentioned in the Grahamstown article, are much higher in SA. And it is the violence that can accompany them- that is the clincher. I wish it wasn't so because I would go to SA in a heartbeat. And, sometimes, I am still tempted....

But you are right about being objective. You could live there without any serious incident - but, statistically, your chances of being a victim of a more serious crime are much higher there. ( Even the official statistics are scary and they may be under reported.) That is the reality and one should be aware of it, not sweep it under the rug. Then, it is up to the individual to decide and make an INFORMED decision.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

The ones who say "crime happens everywhere" have their head in the sand. Many also cannot leave due to:

1. Rand / $ exchange rate
2. The amount you are able to leave with $2Mil / Person I believe.
3. No qualifications to be accepted in OZ/USA/UK etc
4. Are to old.
5. Are culturally adverse to moving

They don't watch the news and many just live in a bubble of getting up going to work and visiting the normal safe places.......

The problem with crime is the violence that is associated with it - A house-breaking often leads to torture rape and sometimes murder - This is NOT a normal occurrence in other countries. This is NOT a risk I believe people should live with. It’s not going to get any better so why would someone willingly (with kids) enter into a bargain without escape? For weather??? or a mountain.... People need to think carefully about today, tomorrow and 20 years from now.


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## Bootes (Feb 8, 2011)

I lived in G-Town for 5 years while I was studying there. Crime, unless maybe you are in the townships is as close to non existant as you can get. Why would you go to the Townships though ? What for ? Anthropology ?

With that said my one friend was almost mugged by some teenagers. He just ran away. My car radio was stolen from my car too. 

I don't mind the fact that people point out that South Africa has a crime problem. We're a third world country with massive wealth discrepencies, what do you expect ? But why overstate it to give the picture that people aren't living normal lives in S.A ? I think most people worry more about the cost of golf balls and where to get fishing bait, or the form of their sports teams here much more than crime. That''s clearly not Halo's experience, but why does he project his neurosis on every single thing ? 

There's so much more to living in South Africa than being neurotically obsessed with crime. For 99% of the people anyway, but I suppose they are too busy enjoying their lives to join forums to bring that up. Move on Halo. I'm sure you did the right thing to leave with your hate and attitude. Why are you trying to hard to convince others ? Or maybe it's yourself you're trying to convince by this pantomimed version of South Africa you are trying to sell ?


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## ksmith (Jan 27, 2011)

Nope, Bootes. I do not buy what you said. My husband has a list as long as his arm of the crime that has happened to his family/friends and they don't live in a township. And the difference between the crime that has happened there to here (UK), is the 'contact' involved.

My husband was hijacked in his driveway with three guns held to his head. He knew that other people had been shot during hijackings, and he feared for his life. He knows of several other people that have been hijacked. His friend had a home invasion and was stabbed (they went to Oz, then). His granny was robbed- again - last year. They got her in her own garden- roughed her up and tied her to a chair, where she was for close to day (she's 90). His newphew went quad biking and was relieved of his quad bikes upon returning to the parking lot by four armed men. An acquaintance whose daughter was raped during a home invasion in Joburg (they went to Oz, also). There's a lot more but I'd be typing all day. Now, a lot of these crimes were face to face with guns involved. People coming in your HOME or driveway. I know there is crime here in the UK and Canada. I know people who have had their cars stolen or home burglarized- but they weren't there when it happened! No guns pointed in your face! 

Family still live in Somerset West and Rondebosch near Cape Town. They know now that crime, specifically home robberies, has really increased in those areas (they're involved in neighborhood watch), and admit now it's worrisome. Both of tighened up security. 

I'm looking at this as an outsider, married to a South African, trying to make an objective, informed decision. My husband, a part of him, wants to go back. But he said he's not delusional, he's lived it. Having a few guns held to your head by some twitchy guys though brought it home. He said before stuff happened to him and people he knew, he brushed it off. Thought it was exaggerated and overblown. Pass me a beer, no worries. But when it happens to YOU and people you know....... 

So, it seems a personal thing. I do not think Halo is projecting his neurosis on anything, I do not think he left with hate and a bad attitude. He is just the opposite of you guys, who say, oh ,crime only happens in townships, 99% of people don't worry about crime, etc, etc. No, he knows that SA has a serious problem with violent crime, that it is not just confined to townships. Like my husband and his long list, Halo has also lived it. He has decided he doesn't want to live with that and the risks. End of. Its understandable. 

I love SA. When I visit, I think I want to move there! But, I want to be as informed as I can and I firmly believe, as I've stated, that SA has a serious problem with violent crime that is NOT confined to townships (heck, my husband's own list blows me away). My husband agrees with a lot of what Halo says, and he is not filled with hate, does not suffer from neurosis or a bad attitude. He's just a chilled out guy who likes a braai and a beer, but after what he's experienced and knows, he says he won't sweep it under the carpet.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Unfortunately, what the situation was 2 or three years ago may no longer be the same.

when I looked at options after our home invasion in 2004, the western Cape had the highest degree of murders but also the highest level of solved murders, mostly within the confines of Gang warfare. 

the answer to that is obvious, where people know each other, its an easy murder to solve.

Unfortunately, I figured crime would follow the money and if I look at the home invasions that now happen in Cape, its still a lot less than Gauteng but higher than it was.

I could also have remained where I was, I had been "lucky" for 54 years and maybe lightning
would not strike twice.
But!! I too have a list of friends who have been affected by Violent crime as long as my arm.

and although people may say they have never been affected and dont know anyone who has....
You are fortunate.
very few South Africans can say that, particularly in Gauteng.


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

Well said ksmith. If you have experienced violent crime you will understand Halo's sentiment. 

I was offered a small block of 10 flats in Tableview last week.... for R4.5 million! Nigerians moved in and the owner cannot get them out, defaulting with rent. Now HE just wants out!

This is a common problem here in the Western Cape. Some of the foreigners rent a flat and sleep in cycles - one group during the day, then have to move out (working night shift, I guess) to make space for the night shift guys sleeping at night. You pay for the right to shower and sleep for a set time.

What use to be beautiful investment properties are now, slowly but surely, becoming ghetto type flats with washing hanging on the balconies (it gets stolen on the washing lines), laundries stripped and washing /dryer machines stolen, and taxis allowed to bring in groups to swim in the common swimming pool, regardless of security.

A community newspaper in Durbanville recently reported on a block of flats near Tygervalley Mall that was "taken over" by Nigerians with prostitution, drugs & other forms of crime operating from there. (My apologies to the honest an upright Nigerians and expats who do not fall into this category. There are many of those too.)

And people living in flats denying the above: Just give it some time...

I respect those who are pro South Africa; South Africa needs your expertise and taxes. But don't try to downplay the realities of this country, especially on a forum used by members as part of their research to make life changing decisions wanting to move here.

Lets allow both sides to state their cases and leave it up to the reader to come to an informed decision without making personal attacks as was made towards Halo.


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## ksmith (Jan 27, 2011)

My husband says if we ever went back, it would be Cape Town but yes, according to family/friends there, crime had substantially increased and now they are starting to question things. 
My sister in law lives in Table View and that is where we stayed when we last went. She would back up what you said, vegasboy, that in the last few years there has been a big change, a noticeable influx of especially other Africans, that have moved in that general area. And no, you don't want to paint everyone with the same brush, but her observations are on par with yours. Unfortunately, the race card often gets played when you bring these issues up. And what you wrote is another one of the factors why my husband has concerns about buying property there. Sad, isn't it.

Ideally, if money were not a factor (I wish!), we would probably go to South Africa and spend a couple of months of the year there. Take precautions, do the touristy things. But yes, people must be informed as much as possible before making a life changing decision about moving there on a permanent basis. 

For myself, I don't have a hidden agenda about SA. Now that I've been there, I've fallen in love with the western cape (haven't seen any other areas yet.) Before I came to the UK though, I had never met a south african in my life and knew next to nothing about the country, just the usual stuff, like apartheid, Neslon Mandela. The first few South Africans(husbands family, here in the UK) I did meet, were very pro SA and are now back there and can't understand why my husband and I continue to live in the UK. And while they stay, others have left or are now in the process of trying to leave. A complete mixed bag in his own family/friends.

As you said, both sides should be able to state their cases without personal attacks as people use the internet as a research tool. People can then make up their own minds, as I did.


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## RachelandSue (Feb 18, 2011)

wow, all your responses have been so informative however negative or positive it does near enough give a balanced view!!!

the points still remain - we want out of the UK - do we have our doubts re SA? we sure do now! 

everywhere in the world (bar euro zone) is such a struggle to get in to, my partner works for Asda (High level team leader) so there are opportunities to go to Walmart apparently??? Who knows what will happen, we just want the best for our little one she is three so if we are going to get out we need to really do it soon so as not to mess with her education.

it's such a quandry, we could stay here and just struggle through saving for our annual hol (which 'm not knocking) or we could just take a risk and go spend 12mths somewhere else, we can always come back, eh? 

thanks again guys, of course if I win that euro millions on friday SA will be my first choice and I shall buy a huge plot with a big fence which seems what you all recommend!!! lol 

Rachel x


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

RachelandSue said:


> wow, all your responses have been so informative however negative or positive it does near enough give a balanced view!!!
> 
> the points still remain - we want out of the UK - do we have our doubts re SA? we sure do now!
> 
> ...


Rachel, I am biased by 54 years of SA.
If I won the Euro millions SA is the last place I would raise my turning 12 yo daughter.
Its not race, more Black people are affected than whites,just on a demographic basis,
its not targeting, with very few exceptions, I dont believe thats happening.

Its not quality of life, you CAN live a better lifestyle in SA if you are earning enough than you would in almost any 1st World Country.

Its not education, if you are paying for a private School the child IS going to get a stimulating education.

And quite honestly, although standards have dropped, there might be an adjustment year or two to get A levels or whatever standard of the Country you will end up in...

and raising a barefooted, suntanned, sunbleached tousled headed kid in SA is what I would have wanted for my daughter, its how I grew up.

Your child is three, apart from the SA "normal" attitudes, its likely she will grow up well.

The problem arises when she is older.
and its what made me leave SA.
when my daughter gets oldd enough to start dating, going to Parties, a cinema, a dinner or just chilling at the beach....
as I used to.
I will have fears and concerns about Road Accidents, exposure to drugs etc.... 

In SA I will also have the fear about her arriving home late at night and hijacking.
I will have concerns when she is old enough about HIV status,
I will have fears about her being one in four SA women who get raped.

I dont care if someone tries to negate that fear by saying that translates to 1 in 100.
Its my daughter and the figures are still too high.

next....
You have this dream idyllic existence...
19 years hence, child wishes to go to Uni...
Are SA Uni qualifications still ok? if so fine.
if not, she leaves.

lets say you have bought your home in CT for £300,000, 
SA has prospered and the exchange rate is still the same, fine, you have gained a good investment.
SA does not prosper and the exchange rate has gone south, your child now has to pay for a Uni in the UK (or whereever) and you cannot afford to leave.
You are 18 years older.

I have no axe to grind, I dont care wether you go or not, I prefer it if you do.
The Country needs people to sacrifice and transfer skills.

just do a what-if remembering its a 3rd world Country where we have no idea of who the next president will be.
and look at what your situation will be.


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## RachelandSue (Feb 18, 2011)

Daxk said:


> Rachel, I am biased by 54 years of SA.
> If I won the Euro millions SA is the last place I would raise my turning 12 yo daughter.
> Its not race, more Black people are affected than whites,just on a demographic basis,
> its not targeting, with very few exceptions, I dont believe thats happening.
> ...


such a caring and well thought out email - thank you x


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Its what everyone has been saying all along...... Going to SA is a bad move.


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## ksmith (Jan 27, 2011)

Well, RachelandSue, you can see from the various responses you got that it's a complicated issue with emotions that can run high! I completely relate to where you're coming from- we want out of the UK also-we're not British though (me Canadian, husband South African).
At first, I was all gung ho to go, yeah, there's crime, but there's crime here and in Canada, too. But, there's crime and then there's CRIME! The first thing that struck me in SA, was that virtually every house has burglar bars on most windows, a steel door in front of the normal door, higer fences, armed response signs on most houses. For good reason. I've read that although overall crime is going down in SA, the one that is actually increasing is house robberies. Often when the people are home. Now, I don't know about you, but I can't imagine anything more scary than having someone break in your home while you're there. Then violence can be used. Here and Canada, it's not common to have people raped, beaten, stabbed, shot when their house is invaded. I think here and in Canada, the bad guys try to rob you when you're not home.
When I was in SA, nothing happened, we were fine and never noticed anything untoward. Some relatives and friends of my husband have only had petty crime and like some people on here, kept tellling us, it's not bad, you just have to take precautions, have good security, etc etc. But on the other side, a lot of crime, some more serious, has happened to my husband and family/friends. It's seems a lottery if you get more seriously hit.
I think Daxk also raised good points about bringing a child over. Also, as said, what happens if the country goes downhill twenty, thirty years from now? Hopefully it won't, but what if it did? That's another factor to consider.
So, with a heavy heart, we decided not to go and to just go over on holiday. If you still think you might go, just do LOTS of research and draw your own conclusions. Oh, the article I posted about more contact crime in Grahamstown-- I don't believe, as someone said, that that is mainly in the townships, not from what I read.
Anyways, I would understand if you didn't go, but I would also understand if you decided to give it a try!
Good luck in you quest. Have you a bit closer to home? Spain?


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## emmacee (Feb 24, 2011)

ksmith said:


> Nope, Bootes. I do not buy what you said. My husband has a list as long as his arm of the crime that has happened to his family/friends and they don't live in a township. And the difference between the crime that has happened there to here (UK), is the 'contact' involved.
> 
> My husband was hijacked in his driveway with three guns held to his head. He knew that other people had been shot during hijackings, and he feared for his life. He knows of several other people that have been hijacked. His friend had a home invasion and was stabbed (they went to Oz, then). His granny was robbed- again - last year. They got her in her own garden- roughed her up and tied her to a chair, where she was for close to day (she's 90). His newphew went quad biking and was relieved of his quad bikes upon returning to the parking lot by four armed men. An acquaintance whose daughter was raped during a home invasion in Joburg (they went to Oz, also). There's a lot more but I'd be typing all day. Now, a lot of these crimes were face to face with guns involved. People coming in your HOME or driveway. I know there is crime here in the UK and Canada. I know people who have had their cars stolen or home burglarized- but they weren't there when it happened! No guns pointed in your face!
> 
> ...


If you/ your husband had such a bad time of it - why go visit there? Not being funny but whats stopping it from happening again just because you are on holiday and not living there? 
You could be living in SA for years and years and not be a victim of crime or you could simply be on your first day of holiday, enjoying catching up with family and having a braii then coming back to your holiday apartment to a break in/ guns etc... Im just saying - this is why people say crime happens anywhere because it does, any where and any way. There's no difference to living in SA or visiting SA - the murderer isnt going to stop pressing the trigger because you are 'just visiting'.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

emmacee, if I may?
I agree that you might be unlucky enough to be in a house that has been targeted for a home invasion.
The SAPS are adamant that most home invasions occur with at least some information ,and very often its either a maid or the maids visitors that pass the info on.

but!! can you not see the difference in taking a risk for a month compared to a risk for a year? or two? or 5?


I've been back twice in 6 years, my mother still lives there, as do almost a hundred Family members.
Having become used to not having burglar bars, and the freedom I enjoy here in Ireland, it took two days for me to become irritated with the constant lock/unlock/check your rear view mirror/ be aware mode that is second nature to people, especially in Gauteng.

I have no idea of Grahamstown, I have not been there in twenty odd years and that was as a visitor, I have no idea of Cape Town, for about the same time span and therefore do NOT comment on lifestyles and crime rates there other than official figures.

I dont know.
but in the same vein unless you have actually LIVED in an area its difficult to comment accurately.

Otherwise I could say that Lagos, Brazzaville, Luanda, Lusaka, Lilongwe and Nairobi are all as safe as houses.
I have stayed there on business often enough, nothing ever happened to me, and my bodyguards were very friendly.

But I'm also unlikely to want to raise my child there.

and those who have children will know exactly what I mean.


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## ksmith (Jan 27, 2011)

Oh, yes, I have thought of that, emmacee. In the beginning, I was apprehensive about even going for a visit. A friend at work, her inlaws went to Joburg for a couple of weeks, only their second visit. First day, hijacked at a traffic light.
But I am willing to take a chance on going for a two week visit every two or three years. My husband though, says no way would we ever go to Joburg! He believes more sh!t happens there, that is just his opinion from having family/friends living in Joburg, the Bluff and Cape Town.


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

OK then people, I do think that the OP has enough information by now.
Can we call it a day?


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## RachelandSue (Feb 18, 2011)

its a healthy debate - but yes I have been put off!!! lol! 

if i win the lottery ill buy a holiday home, but you have all managed to scare the witts out of my wife so its a no go for us, our daughter is the most important thing in our life so it's back to the drawing board for us, we wouldn't really consider europe as a whole, for lots of reasons but we might look at other countries now - but hey with the visa system as it is it looks like we are stuck in blighty until our numbers come in unless anyone else has any good ideas?!?! Thank you again to all of you (including you Halo - even if i do think you are bit open with your opinions - you and your family probably would't have it any other way! Enjoy Oz you lucky ******!)

Rachel
x


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

when I did my analysis, OZ came out my first choice iro of Climate and stability as well as infrastructure.
what blew it for me was obviously my age, secondly I would have had to cash in a fair amount of Investments to qualify and then be at risk for 5 years for Citizenship.
My third choice (pre-GFC) was the States, Dallas/Houston or maybe even Montana or something similar.

I did not intend to put you off, merely to ask you to make an informed decision.
I certainly have not regretted mine.


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## Feebee (Mar 1, 2011)

*Moving to SA*

Hi

I have just registered so this is first thread. Basically, I live in the UK and have South African parents. I have been over to Cape Town many times and stayed with my family out there. I love Cape Town and feel that it is more my home than UK. I go over there every year now and part of me has always wanted to move out there. 

What I am planning is to take a sabbatical from work for 6 months and see if i can live and work out there and get a feel of the country. If I like it then it is something that i can work towards and if i don't at least i have tried. My fiance is from Port Elizabeth and so we hope to spend time in both places.

I have a different request - I would like to know what would be the best way of working there for 6 months and what visa i should get? I did contact the Visa department and they suggested i go on my passport for 3 months and just re apply for 3 more months when i'm there? is that feasible?

Thanks 

Fiona


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

RachelandSue said:


> its a healthy debate - but yes I have been put off!!! lol!
> 
> if i win the lottery ill buy a holiday home, but you have all managed to scare the witts out of my wife so its a no go for us, our daughter is the most important thing in our life so it's back to the drawing board for us, we wouldn't really consider europe as a whole, for lots of reasons but we might look at other countries now - but hey with the visa system as it is it looks like we are stuck in blighty until our numbers come in unless anyone else has any good ideas?!?! Thank you again to all of you (including you Halo - even if i do think you are bit open with your opinions - you and your family probably would't have it any other way! Enjoy Oz you lucky ******!)
> 
> ...


 Have you perhaps considered Florida USA?


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## RachelandSue (Feb 18, 2011)

isn't the USA quite tough to get into unless you have lots of cash or an unbelievable talent???


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## kriz (Nov 15, 2010)

Hi

I joined this forum for the same reasons (my original post was ‘thinking of moving to the other side of the world').

I found it helpful and at times off putting……lol. 

But until I don’t have my own opinions and experiences I’ve decided I can’t make a sound decision! 

I’m going to Joburg for a few weeks in April to see what my day to day life would be like; not do the tourists things but see where I would do my grocery shopping, looking at areas to live and bring up children, local nurseries/schools and hospitals etc.

I’m lucky because my partner’s family live there and so does he. For that reason, I won’t be starting from scratch but still I’ll be settling in and it’ll also be a life changing experience for me.

But to be honest with continues days like this; where the weather in London is miserable, people in the morning always look tired and worried about facing redundancy, the change doesn’t sound so bad!!!!


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## cosmosclown (Mar 2, 2011)

kriz said:


> Hi
> 
> I joined this forum for the same reasons (my original post was ‘thinking of moving to the other side of the world').
> 
> ...


Yes, make up your own mind. Some people will try and scare you away with hyperbole for their own reasons which often relate more to their political perceptions than actual reality. Depending who you listen to South Africa is either a paradise or a war zone. It's really neither. 

I'm sure people would love to hear your impressions once you have come. Be warned though. South African Winters can be pretty cold too.


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## ksmith (Jan 27, 2011)

cosmoclown- my husband and I decided not to move to SA. It had nothing to do with 'hyperbole for their own reason which often relates more to their political perceptions than actual reality'. Uhh....... no, it's because of the huge amount of crime that my own husband and his family/friends/acquaintances experienced first hand.

We would agree with you that SA is neither a paradise or a war zone. But as I said previously, people here (Uk and Canada) may have their cars stolen, houses broken into, but home invasions and hijackings, where people may be raped, beaten, shot, stabbed--- no, not so much. If you read my previous posts, you will see that my husband's list is bad enough, and that was only a few examples. As he says, crime here in the UK is child's play. 

We want out of the UK too. My husband dislikes it but the one thing he does appreciate is not having to install burglar bars, trellidors, gates outside the front door, etc.


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## cosmosclown (Mar 2, 2011)

ksmith said:


> cosmoclown- my husband and I decided not to move to SA. It had nothing to do with 'hyperbole for their own reason which often relates more to their political perceptions than actual reality'. Uhh....... no, it's because of the huge amount of crime that my own husband and his family/friends/acquaintances experienced first hand.
> 
> We would agree with you that SA is neither a paradise or a war zone. But as I said previously, people here (Uk and Canada) may have their cars stolen, houses broken into, but home invasions and hijackings, where people may be raped, beaten, shot, stabbed--- no, not so much. If you read my previous posts, you will see that my husband's list is bad enough, and that was only a few examples. As he says, crime here in the UK is child's play.
> 
> We want out of the UK too. My husband dislikes it but the one thing he does appreciate is not having to install burglar bars, trellidors, gates outside the front door, etc.


While bad things do very occasionally happen to middle classed people in South Africa, I don't think it's really rational to try tell people they're likely to happen. It's reeks a bit of alarmism, scaremongering and hyperbole. But of course people should be aware that they are moving into a country with a crime problem compared to the U.K. If you're worried about crime in the U.K don't come to South Africa. It's far worse here. But it's not nearly as dire as some people are making out.

Would crime stop you going on holiday or to live in Jamaica , Venezuala ,orTrinidad or Tobago ? No ? Then why would it stop you coming to South Africa ? If it would then South Africa is not for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

cosmosclown said:


> While bad things do very occasionally happen to middle classed people in South Africa, I don't think it's really rational to try tell people they're likely to happen. It's reeks a bit of alarmism, scaremongering and hyperbole. But of course people should be aware that they are moving into a country with a crime problem compared to the U.K. If you're worried about crime in the U.K don't come to South Africa. It's far worse here. But it's not nearly as dire as some people are making out.
> 
> Would crime stop you going on holiday or to live in Jamaica , Venezuala ,orTrinidad or Tobago ? No ? Then why would it stop you coming to South Africa ? If it would then South Africa is not for you.
> 
> List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Its not coming to South Africa... Its leaving a 1st world country to live in the place.....


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

cosmosclown said:


> While bad things do very occasionally happen to middle classed people in South Africa, I don't think it's really rational to try tell people they're likely to happen. It's reeks a bit of alarmism, scaremongering and hyperbole. But of course people should be aware that they are moving into a country with a crime problem compared to the U.K. If you're worried about crime in the U.K don't come to South Africa. It's far worse here. But it's not nearly as dire as some people are making out.
> 
> Would crime stop you going on holiday or to live  in Jamaica , Venezuala ,orTrinidad or Tobago ? No ? Then why would it stop you coming to South Africa ? If it would then South Africa is not for you.
> 
> List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


cosmosclown, it is not good to see SA being the highest in Africa....over 20 .....>20 homicides per 100 000


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## cosmosclown (Mar 2, 2011)

Johanna said:


> cosmosclown, it is not good to see SA being the highest in Africa....over 20 .....>20 homicides per 100 000


Latin America by far has the highest murder rates as a continent.

But don't be fooled by the Africa stats. Most of Africa can't and doesn't report crime statistics. If you look again at the link you will see the map. The greyed out parts are countries with no reliable/available data. Most of Africa is greyed out. 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Homicide-world.png

The stat for most of these countries who don't report stats is from a estimate done in 2004. When most African countries don't have functioning governments, police, mortuaries, hospitals, courts etc who record stats it's just impossible to know the murder rates/rape rates etc. Any estimate is likely grossly under reported.

You can be almost certain that South Africa would not be the highest if these countries could all report stats. Crime also follows certain demographic and gender prejudices. If you're a coloured male in South Africa for example you're far more likely to be murder than a white female. 


http://writingrights.org/2010/01/12...n-south-africa-dispelling-the-huntley-thesis/
*
The evidence we have examined indicates that the victims are disproportionately African and coloured working class people. Young men are also disproportionately represented in the murder statistics.*

*More compelling data come from the Medical Research Council (MRC). In an investigation into female homicide rates in South Africa in 2004,[25] the MRC used national mortuary data to determine that 2,8 of every 100 000 white women die as a result of murder,*


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

cosmosclown said:


> Latin America by far has the highest murder rates as a continent.
> 
> But don't be fooled by the Africa stats. Most of Africa can't and doesn't report crime statistics. If you look again at the link you will see the map. The greyed out parts are countries with no reliable/available data. Most of Africa is greyed out.
> 
> ...


Agreed, yet SA ranks amongst the top countries when it comes to murder.

Enough said.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Sadly Cosmosclown picks and choses his sources... If on goes back to nationmaster SA is No.1 in most things.... Rape / Murder (perhaps No.2) / Firearm offences etc.


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## cosmosclown (Mar 2, 2011)

Halo said:


> Sadly Cosmosclown picks and choses his sources... If on goes back to nationmaster SA is No.1 in most things.... Rape / Murder (perhaps No.2) / Firearm offences etc.


Nation master is very outdated. He was right to point this out. I posted the latest S.A.P.S stats when he did that showed a significant decrease in housebreaking in S.A.


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## cosmosclown (Mar 2, 2011)

Johanna said:


> Agreed, yet SA ranks amongst the top countries when it comes to murder.
> 
> Enough said.


Yes, it does. Lucky for the middle classed people though it seldom affects us. Else why would so many people be rushing to live here ? 

If you think the media is understating the crime problem then why do most people who move here always say that if anything the media grossly over stated the problems and gave them a far bleaker perception before than what is reality ?

What people need to know is that when you come to South Africa you shoudl be aware that there are certain places you don't go and things you don't do. You'll also be expected to lock your doors at night and exercise a reasonable degree of security. But in my experience if you are middle classed (by western standards) in any developing/third world country you have to do this. That's the cost of being a king amongst paupers. If you find the idea of having to share a country with very poor people who you will occasionally encounter (car guards, beggars, gold caddies) unbearable then don't choose South Africa.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

I find it facetious to try and compare SA to other African Countries or Latin America or Detroit etc...
its not where the readers of this forum who are thinking of going to SA are coming from?
are they?
if the reader is living in the UK or Belgium or France, are they really interested in what happens in Kenya or Tanzania or Rwanda?
or are they interested in what happens in South Africa and how it will affect them if they move?

so trying to minimise what EVERYONE in SA is saying, that it has a crime and justice and potential infrastructure problem by comparing it to Oz or America when Peter from Putney and Susan from Sussex want to know if its safe to go for a walk in the evening....

Does not help Peter or Susan as they are NOT going to Oz or America, they want to go to Cape Town or take up a job offer in Jhbg.
or am I wrong?


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Nail and Head come to mind...................


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

This makes you sick to the stomach! A rapist not even put off by the police warning to get off the 7 year old girl he is busy raping! Just a few days ago a student was raped in a bathroom at the Irene women's residence at the University of Stellenbosch in the early hours of Sunday morning.

?Man shot after raping girl? - KwaZulu-Natal - IOL | Breaking News | South Africa News | World News | Sport | Business | Entertainment | IOL.co.za 

Student raped inside Irene residence, Stellenbosch University | StelliesJol.com ....and there are more and more and more similar cases, and that's just for the week!


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

RachelandSue have made their decision, so there is no need to carry on with this thread.


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