# Local Police - traffic laws



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Wonder if anyone knows the answer to this

My son was out on his scooter last night. There was a procession in town that finished at 9:30pm and so all surrounding roads were closed.

At 11:30 he needed to put his scooter away in our cochera. The barriers stating no entry (red disc white line) were still in place so he pushed his scooter past them to the entrance (there was no other way to get there and he didn't want to leave it out on the streets).

Two local police then stopped him and gave him a ticket for 40€ because he should not have pushed his scooter past the signs!

Is this correct or has he a case to argue?

I'll probably go down and discuss it with them on Monday but just wondered if anyone new the law.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

anybody?

Thoughts?


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Honestly, my thoughts are that if you go into the station waving laws, by-laws or regulations in their face to try to get out of a 40€ fine, you'll be doing more harm to your cause than good, even though I am sure you could prove that their road closures infringed some form of rule.

Sorry to be negative (and I am usually one to advocate the application of all rules to the letter) but sometimes I think that the most "practical" solution is the best, in this case, pay the 40€ and mark it as experience.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Overandout said:


> Honestly, my thoughts are that if you go into the station waving laws, by-laws or regulations in their face to try to get out of a 40€ fine, you'll be doing more harm to your cause than good, even though I am sure you could prove that their road closures infringed some form of rule.
> 
> Sorry to be negative (and I am usually one to advocate the application of all rules to the letter) but sometimes I think that the most "practical" solution is the best, in this case, pay the 40€ and mark it as experience.


I agree and I paid it this morning.

It's just I don't know how people are supposed to move a bike to their garage (for example) when it's broken (again for example) if the road is closed.

Ah well


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I have a colleague (foreigner) whose parents came to visit him in Madrid. They stayed in a hotel in a pedestrian area, but a sign clearly says "except for hotel access" under the no entry sign.
So every day, he took his family back to the hotel in his car, only to later be fined 40€ every day during their stay. He calmly claimed against the fines giving the evidence of his family´s hotel booking and evidence of the family relationship as justification, but according to the Madrid authorities, the only person authorised to access the hotel is the person who made the booking, so he was not authorised to take his family to the hotel. 
He paid several hundred € in fines...


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## davids0865 (Apr 12, 2016)

Overandout said:


> I have a colleague (foreigner) whose parents came to visit him in Madrid. They stayed in a hotel in a pedestrian area, but a sign clearly says "except for hotel access" under the no entry sign.
> So every day, he took his family back to the hotel in his car, only to later be fined 40€ every day during their stay. He calmly claimed against the fines giving the evidence of his family´s hotel booking and evidence of the family relationship as justification, but according to the Madrid authorities, the only person authorised to access the hotel is the person who made the booking, so he was not authorised to take his family to the hotel.
> He paid several hundred € in fines...


Only in Spain eh! While I generally agree with the pragmatic approach, the story above is just WRONG, and I would have to have fought it.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

davids0865 said:


> Only in Spain eh! While I generally agree with the pragmatic approach, the story above is just WRONG, and I would have to have fought it.


Yes, it seems unfair to me too. But remember that if you fight it and lose, the fines are doubled...

And sadly, it is not "only in Spain", this type of nonsense goes on in many countries, even ones that are more "advanced" than Spain.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Absolutely agree that this shouldn't have happened, but that Spain's not the only country where this kind of craziness goes on.
There's no way I'd have paid that fine without going to talk things over with the police first. Probably the'd have stuck to their guns, but I would have tried to put my point of view forward at least, and I know that my Spanish husband would have done the same.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Absolutely agree that this shouldn't have happened, but that Spain's not the only country where this kind of craziness goes on.
> There's no way I'd have paid that fine without going to talk things over with the police first. Probably the'd have stuck to their guns, but I would have tried to put my point of view forward at least, and I know that my Spanish husband would have done the same.


I guess you are talking about Snikpoh's fine right?

I may have been mistaken, but I kind of assumed that he and his family live in an area where the local police are really "local" in that you are likely to encounter the same agents again and again, i.e. no anonymity. 

In Madrid, where everyone is anonymous I would have been tempted to protest, but in a smaller local environment it often doesn't work in your favour to win an argument with the authorities. They will have you marked, and the next time you need something or do something even slightly wrong, you'll find that their "powers of discretion" suddenly are working against you, instead of in your favour.

Even in big towns like Madrid it pays to "play the game" with local authorities especially of you have any particular identifying characteristic that may make you more memorable than any other member of the public (like being English, for example!)


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Overandout said:


> I guess you are talking about Snikpoh's fine right?
> 
> I may have been mistaken, but I kind of assumed that he and his family live in an area where the local police are really "local" in that you are likely to encounter the same agents again and again, i.e. no anonymity.
> 
> ...


I don't live in Madrid, and I'm sure the police would know exactly who I was. I'm not saying I would march in and argue with them, but as I said, I would *talk* to them - and probably get absolutely nowhere, but if you don't try...


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Well, given the fine has been paid, I see no reason not to now go in and have a 'chat' about how to deal with the issue in such circumstances.


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## ElaineG (Jun 4, 2015)

I was about to push my motorcycle across a pedestrian area when a police officer politely told me that to do would incur a fine. 

I guess no vehicles means just that 

https://tramitatu.com/es/noticia/vados-permanentes/?id=36

El vado permanente es, aquel que reserva el derecho de entrada y salida las 24 horas del día. Solo se autoriza a servicios de emergencias (hospitales, servicios especiales) y a estacionamientos, privados o públicos, permanentes. El resto, excepto excepciones, son de horario limitado (máximo 12h)

Rough translation 

The permanent restricton is, the one that reserves the right of entry and exit 24 hours a day. Only emergency services (hospitals, special services) and parking lots are authorized, private or public, permanent. The rest, except exceptions, are limited hours (maximum 12h)

As for paying fines. If paid promptly surely one gets a 50% reduction ?


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

I don't know Spanish law but wouldn't it be out of the local Police remit to cancel once the fine has been issued?


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## ElaineG (Jun 4, 2015)

Some years ago I made a polite official complaint regarding an alleged parking offence to my town hall re a local police fine. It was was eventually scrapped and the fine was returned to me. 

I never experienced any subsequent problems with the police, town hall etc


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Isobella said:


> I don't know Spanish law but wouldn't it be out of the local Police remit to cancel once the fine has been issued?


If they issued it, they can cancel it.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

ElaineG said:


> I was about to push my motorcycle across a pedestrian area when a police officer politely told me that to do would incur a fine.
> 
> I guess no vehicles means just that
> 
> ...


 Only in this case it wasn't "Un vado permanente"...
In the part that you have quoted it doesn't say anything about whether you are driving/ riding a vehicle or if the engine is switched off.
Anyway, it seems to be clear that in this case the police have interpreted the law as no vehicle can cross the line, engine on or engine off. Fair enough, but the law is being interpreted and if there is anywhere where the law can be interpreted in different ways, where there is elasticity in legalities, then it's Spain. Each individual decides whether it's worth having a chat with the officials or not, and for 100€ and for this type of fine, I would


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## ElaineG (Jun 4, 2015)

I am not sure when a motor vehicle legally strictly ceases to be such. 

I know this is spain but just in passing: In U.K. a motor vehicle parked on a road, without an engine or wheels, up on blocks is legally still a motor vehicle. 

I am sure that even in Spain a vehicle is still a vehicle whether the engine is running or not


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

ElaineG said:


> I am sure that even in Spain a vehicle is still a vehicle whether the engine is running or not


Yep, me too!


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