# Fbar question



## berniej (Mar 5, 2012)

I have joint bank accounts with my wife who is dutch.If these accounts were put in her name only would I have to do the fbars.She does have a social security number but thats it.
Just wanted to see if there was a way not to do the fbars.

TIA

Bernie


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

If the accounts are in her name only and she is not a "US person" - i.e. she does not have a green card that is still considered valid - then you won't have to do FBARs, as you have no authority over the accounts.


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## DavidMcKeegan (Aug 27, 2012)

That is correct that if she has no US filing liability (i.e not a Greencard holder or citizen), and the accounts are only in her name, then there is no need for you to file an FBAR. Just be careful though in the year of transition as you will have to file an FBAR that year. So for example if you move all of your accounts in her name in November of 2014, then for the 2014 FBAR (filed in 2015), you will still have to file a final FBAR.

I am curious though how she can have a SSN and yet no US tax liability??


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

DavidMcKeegan said:


> I am curious though how she can have a SSN and yet no US tax liability??


Easy - no income (or insufficient income) in her own name. I've even had a couple of years here in France with little or no income where I haven't filed. Wasn't working, and was enjoying my status as a "kept woman" thanks to my NRA DH.

And my Dad, back in the US, even got a letter from the IRS telling him NOT to file anymore when it was evident he was living off his IRA and savings and he wasn't withdrawing enough to reach the filing threshold. I didn't believe him at first, but the IRS folks here in Paris confirmed that they really do send out such letters.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

If you went to school in the US or lived there for a bit you'd still have an SSN years after your visa expired or you gave up your green card. I don't think the SSN means anything - certainly no tax filing obligation associated with it - but I don't think it goes away either.


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## DavidMcKeegan (Aug 27, 2012)

I am sorry if that wording was confusing. I know that there is no liability to file a return unless you are making above the income thresholds, however those same thresholds do not apply to FBAR filings? Even if you made zero dollars...if you have over 10K in a foreign account, you need to file an FBAR.

As such, I am wondering how she has a SSN and yet would _not_ have to file an FBAR?


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## theOAP (Aug 30, 2010)

DavidMcKeegan said:


> As such, I am wondering how she has a SSN and yet would _not_ have to file an FBAR?


It's possible for a person who has never worked, lived, held a financial account, or indeed ever set foot in the U. S. to have a US Social Security number and card.

An individual, married to someone who has a US Social Security number and is receiving a US SS pension, where both live in a country that has a Totalisation agreement with the U.S., will be entitled to a US SS spousal benefit. That individual will be given a US SS number and card in order to facilitate the monthly benefit payments. The card has "not valid for employment" or similar words stamped on the front.

They are not required to file FBARs, 8938, etc. (or indeed tax returns if they have no other US source income) since they are not a US Person.


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## ForeignBody (Oct 20, 2011)

DavidMcKeegan said:


> I am sorry if that wording was confusing. I know that there is no liability to file a return unless you are making above the income thresholds, however those same thresholds do not apply to FBAR filings? Even if you made zero dollars...if you have over 10K in a foreign account, you need to file an FBAR.
> 
> As such, I am wondering how she has a SSN and yet would _not_ have to file an FBAR?


Surely because you have to be a "US Person" not just someone who has an SSN.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

DavidMcKeegan said:


> I am sorry if that wording was confusing. I know that there is no liability to file a return unless you are making above the income thresholds, however those same thresholds do not apply to FBAR filings? Even if you made zero dollars...if you have over 10K in a foreign account, you need to file an FBAR.
> 
> As such, I am wondering how she has a SSN and yet would _not_ have to file an FBAR?


If she is an NRA, she is not subject to US taxation, and indeed she can hold foreign bank accounts in any amount whatsoever and not have to file FBARs. FBARs are required for US citizens and/or permanent residents with foreign bank accounts that exceed the threshold of $10,000. But a genuine NRA - nope.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

> As such, I am wondering how she has a SSN and yet would not have to file an FBAR?


My wife, for example, has an SSN, with a decades-old card buried somewhere in a drawer. She either received it with her student visa or, a year later, green card, when we lived in the US circa early 1990s. The green card was happily turned over to US customs a few years after we returned to Canada. Ergo, she is not a US person, has no obligations to the US of any kind, but still has an SSN. It means nothing, confers no privileges, but I'm sure that the number is unique and associated with her name and date of birth, in some database somewhere.


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

Nononymous said:


> ....Ergo, she is not a US person, has no obligations to the US of any kind, but still has an SSN. It means nothing, confers no privileges, but I'm sure that the number is unique and associated with her name and date of birth, in some database somewhere.


I wouldn't _assume_ it means nothing. Specifically, if she paid non-trivial amounts of U.S. payroll tax within any two calendar years (not for two years necessarily) then, per the U.S.-Canada social security treaty, she'll be able to claim her own U.S. Social Security retirement benefits. They won't be huge in such circumstances, but they'll be non-zero.

Yes, a part-time job at her university (and the treaty) could have been enough to qualify her for future retirement benefits.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

But we're not talking about social security benefits. The point is simply whether or not someone need file an FBAR merely because they have a US SSN. And the answer to that one is "no." 
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

Correct, and I didn't say otherwise. Assignment of a U.S. Social Security number does not make one a U.S. person for purposes of tax and financial reporting.

Most if not all of the 2,999 individuals who terminated their U.S. citizenships in 2013 (according to the Federal Register) have U.S. Social Security numbers. They are no longer U.S. persons.


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## maz57 (Apr 17, 2012)

And yup I'm one of them, although I don't (yet anyway) appear in the Federal Register.


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