# Moving with the family I work for.



## Gaddess

Hello Expat Forums! This is my first post!

I am an American who works for an American family that wants to move abroad and bring me with them. We are trying to find out the best and legal ways to make that happen.

Here are the important details.

I’m a 26 yrold unmarried, childless women who works for a family as their full time nanny. I will have been with them for over a year and known them for almost 2 by the time they move.

While initially my job was just as their children’s nanny it has become more like their house manager and personal assistant. I now do everything from childcare, house cleaning and grocery shopping to making appointments for them and helping pay their bills on time. I absolutely love my job and this family. We are incredibly close.

They have decided that the best thing for their family is to move overseas and become expats. Their jobs will take them to Luxembourg but they may choose to live in Germany or one of the surrounding areas that most people commute to Luxembourg from.

We are trying to find a way to have me move to. They said they couldn’t imagine making the move without me. I basically run their entire home now as a PA. What kind of visas should we be looking at?

A lot of nannies in the US work under the table but I do not. Without too much detail they basically started a small business and hired me as their employee so that we could do a payroll system and have everything taxed appropriately. I even get health insurance, paid vacation and sick leave.

Because we run it like a small business is there a way I can be considered having to relocate for my job?

Thank you so much!


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## Nononymous

A couple of questions:

First, what status will your employers have? Are they EU citizens, or will they be on a work visa? (If they are not citizens there might be complications in that regard with cross-border commuting if they work in Luxembourg and live in Germany, but I'm no expert on this. Their employer - presumably Amazon - will know more.)

Second, what languages do you have, and have you lived in Germany before? If you are their "house manager and personal assistant" as well as nanny, you would ideally be able to negotiate the local system for them. It's obviously not impossible to do as a foreigner (most of us on this board have had to figure it out the hard way) but much easier if you speak the language and know how things work. You might need to set expectations with your employers that you will not be able to provide the same level of service you do in the US, at least not while there's a learning curve. 

You won't really have an option to work under the table, because as a US citizen you can only spend 90 days in the Schengen area as a visitor, after that you need a residence permit. To obtain a residence permit you need a good reason for living in Germany - studying, working or research, basically. 

I suppose you could obtain a residence permit to study German while being paid under the table for child-care outside of class time - that might work, though you'd need to demonstrate savings outside of your undeclared income and carry some simple student health insurance, and I think it needs to be a serious language school, not just a few evenings a week, which might then interfere with the nanny gig.

Otherwise it's not clear to me how a couple coming over to work could bring their own nanny with them. It's already impossible to sponsor family members who are not minor children. But others may have an idea.

PS on edit: I seem to have deleted something I wrote earlier. The fact that your employers set up a small business to hire you won't really work to your advantage. If they are legally established in Germany (either on work permits or as EU nationals) they cannot hire you directly (i.e. sponsor you for a work permit of your own) without first proving that an EU national cannot do the same job. While you may be special to them, your qualifications for the job may not appear special to the Arbeitsamt, which would make that decision. On other hand, the Ausländerbehörde (foreigners' office) can be fairly flexible and forgiving with pleasant, polite, well-to-do bourgeois professional types from the US, Canada and other privileged countries, so you never know. It might be worth having your employers contact a German immigration lawyer to discuss the whole scenario.


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## Gaddess

Thank you for the reply Nononymous.

The family are also American citizens however. They plan on buying a house and becoming Permanent residents/citizens. They do work for Amazon and will be on work visas st the beginning.

I speak basic, high school German but I am currently looking to enrolled in an intensive German language class so by time the move happens I will speak far more than they do.

Does having my own family in Germany/EU help? My sister is married to a German man and they have lived in Germany for 5 years.


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## Nononymous

Gaddess said:


> The family are also American citizens however. They plan on buying a house and becoming Permanent residents/citizens. They do work for Amazon and will be on work visas st the beginning.


Presumably they are aware that this is a long process, but if their employer sponsors them and there are no issues with work permits and cross-border commuting and all that, then it is perfectly doable. 

But their becoming permanent residents or owning a house doesn't really address the issue of how *you* could legally live in Germany. There might be some sort of program that allows foreign au pairs to work for a year or two, perhaps that is worth researching.



> I speak basic, high school German but I am currently looking to enrolled in an intensive German language class so by time the move happens I will speak far more than they do.


That would be useful for all concerned. It's getting easier to live in Germany with only English, though more so in the cities (in Berlin it's ridiculous the extent to which you can function without German); if you are in some little town it's possibly a different story. If the children go to public school someone will need to communicate with teachers and help with homework.



> Does having my own family in Germany/EU help? My sister is married to a German man and they have lived in Germany for 5 years.


No it doesn't help. There is no provision to sponsor anyone other than a spouse or minor child.


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## Nononymous

A cursory Google search revealed that an au pair visa might be possible. However there's an age limit of 26 (not sure if that means you must be 25 or just not over 26) and it's not clear if there are restrictions on who can sponsor - i.e. if the family already needs some sort of residence status to make the application. Further research required.


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## Gaddess

What about long stay visas and working remotely? Since they own a small business and I am the employee could we claim I am working remotely for their business? How much information about my job/job requirements do they need?

I’ve read a lot about how Europe likes remote us workers because we are bringing money in and spending there but we are not taking a job away from a german or eu national.


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## Bevdeforges

The last time I looked into the German regulations on an au pair visa, there are a number of restrictions - on the number of hours the au pair can work, living conditions for the au pair in the household, and on the amounts the au pair can be paid (supposed to be "pocket money" as a member of the family, not really a living wage). 

I suspect your family will first have to clear whatever visa hurdles there might be with their employer. It's not all that easy to get a work visa for one country, with a residence visa for the neighboring country. But if their employer can manage that, then they may be able to advise on what your options will be for coming over as "household staff."
Cheers,
Bev


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## Nononymous

Gaddess said:


> What about long stay visas and working remotely? Since they own a small business and I am the employee could we claim I am working remotely for their business? How much information about my job/job requirements do they need?
> 
> I’ve read a lot about how Europe likes remote us workers because we are bringing money in and spending there but we are not taking a job away from a german or eu national.


First, that's not really true, is it? You're not a remote nanny; it's not really "remote" if you're working for people who've moved to Germany but maintain a business entity in the US that exists only to pay you. The authorities might figure that out, particularly if you are living with the family, as you would all be registered at the same residence. If your primary function is to provide child care, you definitely are taking a job away from an EU national, is how they might see it. 

Second, the remote work long-stay visa thing is by no means automatic. You hear about it here and there (particularly one- or two-year stints in Spain) but it's not widespread and there is no official program as such, certainly not in Germany, so you are dependent on the good will and discretion of an individual case officer. The German "freelancer visa" of legend was really intended for creative types working independently with local clients, though there are cases where individuals have shifted exclusively to offshore business and have retained their status. Mostly when you hear of someone living in Europe and working remotely they already have some other reason to live there, some other justification for their status, such as marriage to an EU national or trailing spouse following someone with a job (in some cases they obtain a work permit and enter the tax system, in other cases they have no right to employment so the remote work is all under the table, which is fine as long as it's not detected). 

And of course once living in Germany you'd be subject to German taxes, health and social insurance laws, which could be a bit of a nightmare for your employers. But before worrying about that you need to figure out how you can get there in the first place.


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## Gaddess

So my next question would be about the blue cards. Everything I have read says that you can get a blue card if you have an “active work contract”. I am under a contract with the family for a year. Our contract is legally binding for all parties. If they move could I apply for a blue card or something similar because my job moved while I was still under contract?


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## Nononymous

Gaddess said:


> So my next question would be about the blue cards. Everything I have read says that you can get a blue card if you have an “active work contract”. I am under a contract with the family for a year. Our contract is legally binding for all parties. If they move could I apply for a blue card or something similar because my job moved while I was still under contract?


Even if you met the various conditions (university degree, high salary) it's probably not going to work. Your employers likely would not be considered "employers" in the sense that it's intended - they are a pair of Americans coming to work for Amazon, not a German company looking to hire a software engineer.


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## Nononymous

So here's what I'd suggest:

First, your employers need to talk to Amazon to find out how easily they can live in Germany while working in Luxembourg. If that's not easy, you're in the wrong forum.

Second, you and your employers should speak to either a German immigration lawyer or the German consulate and describe the situation and see if there's any possible way you can join the family as an employed nanny. 

By the book, I don't think your chances are great. There's no obvious fit among the existing programs - not Blue Card, not remote freelancing, probably not an au pair program, and certainly not a straight-up employment visa where you'd theoretically have to prove that no EU national could do the job. Your employers may not qualify as "employers" as far as the authorities are concerned.

However, as I said before, there's a fair amount of flexibility and discretion in the German system, particularly when you are the "right" sort of foreigner - a well-paid American professional couple seconded by a major international corporation, for example - so it's possible that some sort of deal could be negotiated. But don't underestimate the difficulties, and setting you up legally as their employee in Germany could be a hellish red-tape nightmare for all concerned.


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## Nononymous

delete


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## ALKB

Gaddess said:


> So my next question would be about the blue cards. Everything I have read says that you can get a blue card if you have an “active work contract”. I am under a contract with the family for a year. Our contract is legally binding for all parties. If they move could I apply for a blue card or something similar because my job moved while I was still under contract?


Generally, it is possible to get a residence permit for domestic staff. How easy it is, I don't know.

I looked into this a few years ago but not in detail and rules may have changed since then.

What I remember is, that your employer has to prove that you have been with them for at least a year, I think, and that during this time all taxes and social security contributions have been paid. You'd also have to get a German employment contract that satisfies at least minimum requirements of German labor law (annual leave, sick leave, salary level, social security contributions etc.)

In any case, the Department for Labor would have to give permission for you to get a work permit for this employment and they may well ask how you are more qualified as a nanny/personal assistant in this case than a local German person who may also speak Letzeburgish.

Doing a really quick search, I found this:

https://www.ihk-bonn.de/fileadmin/d...teuern/Auslaenderrecht/Auslaenderrecht_II.pdf

Do a search for 'Hausangestellte' in this document.

So it seems there are two different categories of domestic staff: general domestic staff with a maximum stay of three years and domestic staff of people on ICT (Intra Company Transfer) in Germany with a maximum stay of 5 years.

Now, your employers would be on ICT, just not with a company based in Germany and that would probably kick you out of that category.

The big question here is really whether it is possible for third country nationals to live in one country while working in another and whether Germany would find this reason enough to give a residence permit to yet another third country national who would do something that would not be regarded as a highly skilled job.

When I was living in Geneva, for instance, it was no problem for non-EEA nationals working for the United Nations to work in Switzerland and live in France. This was before the bilateral agreements between Switzerland and the EU and before Switzerland joined Schengen. It is definitely possible that something similar exists for Luxembourg/Germany (and/or Belgium and/or France).

It's relatively (!!) simple to do the cross border thing as an EU national but even then there are issues with taxes and health care that are just a bit more complicated when two countries are involved.

I assume your employers are not the first Americans to be transferred to Luxembourg by Amazon and usually they would get the services of a relocation agency? If so, Amazon HR and that relocation agency should be questioned regarding living in Germany when on a Luxembourgian work permit, where taxes and social security contributions would be paid and how health insurance would work for them. If they have experience with this and none of it is a problem, then ask regarding the possibility of you coming along.

If it turns out that they have to actually live in Luxembourg after all, then you should probably contact the Embassy of Luxembourg in the USA and/or the relevant authorities in Luxembourg.

And by the way, owning a property in Germany does not give any sort of right to a residence permit.


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## ALKB

Gaddess said:


> I’m a 26 yrold unmarried, childless women who works for a family as their full time nanny. I will have been with them for over a year and known them for almost 2 by the time they move.


How old are the children?


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## Nononymous

What I forgot to add yesterday, which is probably not something the poster wants to hear, is that what her employers really need is a German version of the same person, who in addition to having no work permit issues would speak the language and be able to deal with local bureaucracy, household management and, particularly, school and teachers.


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## Gaddess

ALKB said:


> Gaddess said:
> 
> 
> 
> I’m a 26 yrold unmarried, childless women who works for a family as their full time nanny. I will have been with them for over a year and known them for almost 2 by the time they move.
> 
> 
> 
> How old are the children?
Click to expand...

6 and 2 but they are planning on having more.


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## ALKB

Gaddess said:


> 6 and 2 but they are planning on having more.


Okay, one of the requirements for domestic staff is that they have been hired to take care of a child/children under the age of 16 and have done so for at least a year before moving.

So that's in your favour.

The more worrying part is the emphasis on the employing household being in Germany on secondment = stay of limited duration. Secondment would actually be to Luxembourg and the end goal seems to be settlement rather than return to America after a few years.

Since they have no German work contract, they would not apply for a work visa at the German Embassy, but that's what you would have to do. It's a bit of a muddle because I think your employers would at least need a German residence permit in hand before you can apply for a work permit to work for them in Germany.

Found this:

http://www.luxembourg.public.lu/en/...nvenue-tiers/olai-bienvenue-tiers-2010-EN.pdf

Okay, so number 6 kind of addresses part of the issue but it seems to be talking about non-EEA nationals already living in a neighbouring EU state on a residence permit, so they would have a German/French/Belgian residence permit before applying for a work permit in Luxembourg. Doesn't say anything about agreements for the other way around.

And of course this doesn't even touch on your personal situation.

This EU document states Germany's stance but Luxembourg opted not to say anything publicly (which does not bode all that well for possibilities of a Luxembourg work permit for you, but I know nothing about their flexibility):

https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/s...c_workers_2nov2009_wider_dissemination_en.pdf

"Domestic employees of persons posted for work in Germany (private foreign employers with limited right of residence– no diplomats) 
If in his or her capacity as employer the person posted does not comply with the provisions of the employment contract, the employee can 
bring this case to the court responsible for labour disputes. 

If it is established that the person posted has supplied incorrect information to the Federal Employment Agency regarding the working conditions of his or her domestic employee in order to obtain the residence permit, this would constitute a criminal offence which is punishable with up to three years’ imprisonment or a fine (Section 95(2) No. 2, Residence Act). A victim of trafficking may be granted a temporary right of residence on the Federal territory if and as long as the victim is willing to give evidence against the perpetrator in a criminal 
procedure and if his or her giving evidence is considered necessary in the procedure; for this, the victim is granted an appropriate period for reflection (Sections 25(4a), 50(2a) Residence Act). In addition, the same protective provisions of civil and labour law apply as those applicable for German nationals."


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## Bevdeforges

I think the net result of all this is that the family being seconded to Luxembourg needs to ascertain what their visa status is going to be. It's not absolutely certain that they can get a residence visa for Germany if they are going to be working in Luxembourg. But whether it's Amazon they'll be working for or some other international company, their employer no doubt has a high power legal department that is handling the visas for the family.

If they are serious about wanting to have you accompany or join them, then they need to include this as part of their own visa request information and let the employer's legal staff see what can or cannot be done.
Cheers,
Bev


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