# Cyprus Crisis



## sjg-uk (Jan 11, 2012)

I left Paphos on December 28 th for a one month business trip back to ukraine , but we are still here !
I have been watching news reports from UK and Russia about the current crisis.
Can you tell me please , what is the general feeling there ?
There are so many different reports , most seem Media hype , but to get you guys from there your take on it would be good for us people with homes in Cyprus .
If you know any Ukrainains or Russians feelings that would be good too. 
We here there is no food in supermarkets , no work , no money , property prices will go to zero ..... All gloom and doom , everyone wants out and no one will ever recommend Cyprus for business , property or investment and that the whole Banking and financial business has collapsed and will never recover !!

So please tell the World what you think and have experienced ?


----------



## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

Simon for some reason the Eastern Euorpean is grossly exaggerating things.
The supermarkets are well stocked, no one I have spoken to so far wants out, although I am sure some will.
Of course those who have lost money are feeling very sore and betrayed and there will be a general tightening of belts for the foreseeable future.
Many businesses will be downsizing on staff and many will be replacing existing staff with family members who have lost their jobs(that is the way the Cypriots work and who can blame them)
Most expats will not have lost much money as the majority who have investments have them elsewhere and most get their pensions paid into UK banks and only bring over what they need.
Property prices will inevitably drop overthe next few months but to say they will drop to zero is total nonsense.

Why not get back here for a while and see for yourself what the state of play is.
I am sure you will find that much of what you have been told is just media hype and scaremongering.


----------



## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

sjg-uk said:


> I left Paphos on December 28 th for a one month business trip back to ukraine , but we are still here !
> I have been watching news reports from UK and Russia about the current crisis.
> Can you tell me please , what is the general feeling there ?
> There are so many different reports , most seem Media hype , but to get you guys from there your take on it would be good for us people with homes in Cyprus .
> ...


If you have been reading the threads on here you should have an idea of what things are like. But here is my view:
_We here there is no food in supermarkets_ Absolute rubbish. There are no food shortages in Carrefour, Papantoniou, Alphamega and Lidl or any privately owned supermarkets that I have been in. There may be less in Orphanides but that is because it has gone bust.
_no work_ The work position has been difficult for a long time which is why the good advice to exercise caution has been given from this Forum to people looking to come here with children and who need to work.
_no money_ Absolute rubbish. There are widely reported restrictions on the amount of withdrawals from banks in order to control runs but the whole point of the bailout was to ensure the banks don't go broke, therefore there is money as that is what banks do.
_property prices will go to zero_ I am sure that there will be an effect on property prices but if they do go to zero I will be buying lots of them.
_All gloom and doom_ Not where I am and not with the people I socialise with.
_everyone wants out_ I have not come across one person who has expressed this although I am sure there must be some, there is always a number of people leaving the island for a variety of reasons.
_no one will ever recommend Cyprus for business , property or investment_ There may be short terms effects but if there is an opportunity there are always people available to seize it. 
_the whole Banking and financial business has collapsed and will never recover_ Absolute rubbish. The whole point of the bailout was to ensure this did not happen. The Banks are reopening today for business. That includes the Ukrainian and Russian banks.
_Can you tell me please , what is the general feeling there ?_ The general feeling that I have come across is that Cyprus has been let down by its past government who milked the economy, by the bankers who invested unwisely, by the EU who have acted vindictively.

Apart from indicating that life is carrying on quite normally it is a beautiful day and the sun is shining, all plant life is growing and the birds are singing.

Pete


----------



## sjg-uk (Jan 11, 2012)

Hi Veronica and Pete,
Thanks for your comments. It is good to hear from you guys who are there and experiencing the problems face on.
The British and World press constantly do a scare story and make things a lot worse than things actually seem. Is that 1 million euros still at the army base , or has that been spent in the local economy ?
The general feeling we are getting from the everyday Russian and Ukrainians is that none of them will want to leave Cyprus because of this current crisis. 
I hear most of the large Russian money left Cyprus long time before this crisis was announced.
I think the governments policy to keep money in Cyprus is the best thing they can do short term, but what the long term effect will have I'm don't know ?
Veronica I would love to be back , we had flights booked back in january , but unfortunately had to cancel due to work commitments here and now the International Children's Heart Foundation volunteer Doctors arrive next week for 2 weeks , so I will stay to oversee this , then a trip to London with Luda and back to our Pafos home end April beginning May. It's been a long winter here in Ukraine , with temps down to minus 20 degrees , how I long to be back in some beautiful Cyprus sunshine !


----------



## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

sjg-uk said:


> Hi Veronica and Pete,
> Thanks for your comments. It is good to hear from you guys who are there and experiencing the problems face on.
> The British and World press constantly do a scare story and make things a lot worse than things actually seem. Is that 1 million euros still at the army base , or has that been spent in the local economy ?
> The general feeling we are getting from the everyday Russian and Ukrainians is that none of them will want to leave Cyprus because of this current crisis.
> ...


Re the Forces €1 million: As I understood it this was sent over as a contingency against the bailout failing to be agreed and the banks collapsing. I would imagine it is still there under lock and key.

I don't know the truth of whether the large Russian deposits were withdrawn. There were certainly reports of private jets flying in to try and retrieve money when the crisis became intense. If most of the big money was withdrawn then the Banks' position is even worse, surely something that the EU would have pounced on.

Keep doing your good work. I wish you sunshine!

Pete


----------



## roberda (Jul 24, 2011)

All the large supermarkets are well stocked, if a little short on customers , but now i think that a lot of people are strarting to be more carefull with there money


----------



## David_&_Letitia (Jul 8, 2012)

sjg-uk said:


> Is that 1 million euros still at the army base , or has that been spent in the local economy ?


Hi Simon,

The €1M was not sent for the Cyprus economy. 

It was sent purely for the forces and civil servants in the two SBAs to cash cheques in order to make up for the fact that they could not draw the amount of cash they may have wished from ATMs. To put this amount in perspective, there are 3,500 permanently based soldiers in the SBAs, many of whom are married and accompanied by wives and families. If every soldier wished to avail themselves of the facility, they would have a maximum of €285 to use up the €1M. When you consider that there are also soldiers staging to/from Afghanistan and for those who have children may have child benefits paid through the British Forces Post Office in the SBAs, this figure will reduce accordingly. I imagine that most of this will have been used, and more is on its way without the publicity.



sjg-uk said:


> I hear most of the large Russian money left Cyprus long time before this crisis was announced.


I was listening to Newsnight on Monday night. Emily Maitlis put to both Alexander Nekrassov (former financial advisor to the Kremlin) and Prodamos Prodomou (Cypriot MP in the Democtratic Rally Party) the assertion that as Laiki Bank had not closed its doors in London, the Russians were able to move their funds out of Laiki. Their answers seemed to indicate that this was the case and the money had gone to 'other offshore zones'. In addition, Nekrassov asserted that Russia would 'put pressure' on German companies (BMW? Mercedes?) in order to hit back at what had happened.

You can see the interview (very interesting!) here. Although the whole piece is worth watching, the assertion about money being taken out via London is around the 13:55 point:

BBC iPlayer - Newsnight: 25/03/2013


----------



## 5Stingray5 (Dec 21, 2012)

PeteandSylv said:


> The general feeling that I have come across is that Cyprus has been let down by its past government who milked the economy, by the bankers who invested unwisely, by the EU who have acted vindictively.
> Pete


Cyprus based so much on the property market which resulted in the Title Deed fiasco with added consequence that the property market is now dead in the water.
Maybe realistic prices with the added bonus of the titled deed issue as it stands being made illegal will help matters.
Cypriot Solicitor/lawyers have colluded with developers and banks therefore having a conflict of interest.
Had the solicitors/lawyers been taken to task none of the title deed fiasco would have arisen.


----------



## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

5Stingray5 said:


> Cyprus based so much on the property market which resulted in the Title Deed fiasco with added consequence that the property market is now dead in the water.
> Maybe realistic prices with the added bonus of the titled deed issue as it stands being made illegal will help matters.
> Cypriot Solicitor/lawyers have colluded with developers and banks therefore having a conflict of interest.
> Had the solicitors/lawyers been taken to task none of the title deed fiasco would have arisen.


The title deeds fiasco as you call it was there before the property boom and was a result of an idle civil service, a cumbersome out of date system and bad management.

If house prices became unrealistic during the boom it was because the people buying them continually paid the prices. Most of these were Brits who were taking advantage of an extremely good exchange rate. The Cypriot sellers, like anyone in business, sold their goods at the price the market can stand. To put it more succinctly it was the Brits the allowed prices to go high.

To suggest that these 2 factors have resulted in a "dead" property market ignores the worldwide recession with subsequent effect on house sales. When Britain hit recession property prices dropped there too. This is market forces at work. The Brits stopped coming and spending. Had the Brits continued buying houses the market would not have dropped therefore it could not have been the direct fault of any unscrupulous developers or some of those crooked British marketeers or the lawyers.

There is no doubt there has been much wrongdoing by developers and lawyers due to an outdated infrastructure with poor regulation and control which is a major issue the government needs to deal with.

How do you determine realistic house prices in your criticism? A realistic house price can only be that price that the buyer is willing to pay. If people are desperate to sell and take losses on their property then the price to them is not realistic although the buyer may disagree.

Pete


----------



## 5Stingray5 (Dec 21, 2012)

PeteandSylv said:


> The title deeds fiasco as you call it was there before the property boom and was a result of an idle civil service, a cumbersome out of date system and bad management.
> 
> There is no doubt there has been much wrongdoing by developers and lawyers due to an outdated infrastructure with poor regulation and control which is a major issue the government needs to deal with.
> 
> How do you determine realistic house prices in your criticism? A realistic house price can only be that price that the buyer is willing to pay. If people are desperate to sell and take losses on their property then the price to them is not realistic although the buyer may disagree.Pete


The Cypriots claim that their legal system is based on the British legal system, if that is the case why haven't the corrupt conveyencing lawyers been struck off as they are the pivotal point of house. purchasing/selling that allowed the title deed fiasco to expand to epidemic proportions?

To sell in Cyprus at the moment people are having to take a more realistic price from the fantasy prices of 2006 when our friends bungalow was valued at the equivalent of 393k euros, she had to take 250K euros 2 years ago along with another friend whose townhouse once valued at 150k euros went for 90k euros the same year.
*The days of sitting in the Tala square at lunchtime boasting of the latest inflated price rise in the value of your house has gone.* In 2000 you could sell up in the UK (in the north not south), buy a nice house in Paphos and still have a lump sum left over. 
In the fantasy days of 2006/8 you sold your house in the UK (in the north not south), and then had to take out a mortgage to buy a house (not an apartment or townhouse) in Cyprus.
This is referred as 'Calling a spade a spade'.


----------



## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

5Stingray5 said:


> The Cypriots claim that their legal system is based on the British legal system, if that is the case why haven't the corrupt conveyencing lawyers been struck off as they are the pivotal point of house. purchasing/selling that allowed the title deed fiasco to expand to epidemic proportions? You must get to grips with the fact that the title deeds are issued by the government Land Registry. Despite their shortcomings you cannot blame the lawyers for this problem. Certainly some should be struck off for other reasons but the Cyprus legal system has not gone through the huge changes that happened in the UK legal system improving it and made policing it much better and made access for non-rich people possible. Perhaps you have a short memory for what the British legal system was like 50 odd years ago.
> 
> To sell in Cyprus at the moment people are having to take a more realistic price from the fantasy prices of 2006 when our friends bungalow was valued at the equivalent of 393k euros, she had to take 250K euros 2 years ago along with another friend whose townhouse once valued at 150k euros went for 90k euros the same year. The prices are all the realistic prices at the time of selling and are affected by the market situation. Your friend's price in 2006 backs up my argument that it was the Brits that allowed prices to rise. They were part of demanding a price which you are now calling a fantasy price. But it wasn't a fantasy for those who were buying and selling at those prices.
> 
> ...



Pete


----------



## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

"This is referred as 'Calling a spade a spade'. No comment. This point escapes me."


Had me completely puzzled as well


----------



## 5Stingray5 (Dec 21, 2012)

PeteandSylv said:


> You must get to grips with the fact that the title deeds are issued by the government Land Registry. Despite their shortcomings you cannot blame the lawyers for this problem. Certainly some should be struck off for other reasons but the Cyprus legal system has not gone through the huge changes that happened in the UK legal system improving it and made policing it much better and made access for non-rich people possible. Perhaps you have a short memory for what the British legal system was like 50 odd years ago.Pete


Of course the solicitors are to blame if they complete and give your money away without first securing the title deeds.
The solicitors are the pivotal point here, they should carry out all necessary searches as well as not releasing cash until the title deeds are secure.


----------



## 5Stingray5 (Dec 21, 2012)

Veronica said:


> "This is referred as 'Calling a spade a spade'. No comment. This point escapes me."
> 
> 
> Had me completely puzzled as well


It's saying it as it is and not fudging the issue by blaming anyone but the main culprit which is the conveyancing solicitor who very often works hand in glove with the developer/builder.
They are well aware of what is going on but still hand over your money.
If they had refused as they should have done in the past none of this would have happened.


----------



## 5Stingray5 (Dec 21, 2012)

PeteandSylv said:


> The days of sitting in the Tala square at lunchtime boasting of the latest inflated price rise in the value of your house has gone. [Reinforcing my point that it was the Brtis allowing the rise in prices and proudly boasting of them.[Pete]


The thing is I've never believed in Fairies but it seems many did.


----------



## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

5Stingray5 said:


> Of course the solicitors are to blame if they complete and give your money away without first securing the title deeds.
> The solicitors are the pivotal point here, they should carry out all necessary searches as well as not releasing cash until the title deeds are secure.


Please tell me how the lawyers are to secure the title deeds if they haven't been issued by the Land Registry?

Pete


----------



## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

5Stingray5 said:


> It's saying it as it is and not fudging the issue by blaming anyone but the main culprit which is the conveyancing solicitor who very often works hand in glove with the developer/builder.
> They are well aware of what is going on but still hand over your money.
> If they had refused as they should have done in the past none of this would have happened.


You choose the conveyancing solicitor not the developer.

How does this apply to resales?

Your concept that the transaction should not complete until the title deeds is secure is extremely sensible and one hopes that one day this can happen but currently, if the Title Deeds are not released by the slothful Land Registry your only other choice is to abandon the purchase.

Pete


----------



## 5Stingray5 (Dec 21, 2012)

PeteandSylv said:


> Please tell me how the lawyers are to secure the title deeds if they haven't been issued by the Land Registry?Pete


If the title deeds are not available don't complete. If they aren't available questions must be asked by the solicitor regarding why, if the wrong answers are given then it is up to the solicitor to advise their client not to complete or are you saying that the solicitor should put their client in a precarious financial/risky position?
Its not rocket science.


----------



## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

5Stingray5 said:


> The thing is I've never believed in Fairies but it seems many did.


I'm not completely sure I know what you think you might be saying here.

I am however starting to wonder whether you were advising everyone of this at the time or whether you are yet another powerful retrospective thinker.

Pete


----------



## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

5Stingray5 said:


> If the title deeds are not available don't complete. If they aren't available questions must be asked by the solicitor regarding why, if the wrong answers are given then it is up to the solicitor to advise their client not to complete or are you saying that the solicitor should put their client in a precarious financial/risky position?
> Its not rocket science.


If "don't complete" is your only solution to this then the housing market would have collapsed years ago.

Understand that it is the rules for issuing Title Deeds and the laws surrounding them that are the root of the problem exacerbated by the slothful Land Registry.

Taking years to issue Title Deeds is the normal standard for them. There could never have been any sales if the deeds were to be available at completion.

There is however a process that registers your sale and right to the Title Deeds when you make the purchase. (Apologies but the official name of this escapes me at present) However subsequent illegal actions, bankruptcies and dubious court rulings have put this in jeopardy.

Make no mistake, I'm no fan of the lawyers here, I've already fired one, but to try and make them shoulder the entire blame for the Title Deeds problem is incorrect.

The root cause of the problem is owned by Government.

Pete


----------



## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

5Stingray5 said:


> It's saying it as it is and not fudging the issue by blaming anyone but the main culprit which is the conveyancing solicitor who very often works hand in glove with the developer/builder.
> They are well aware of what is going on but still hand over your money.
> If they had refused as they should have done in the past none of this would have happened.


Don't you think that the buyers are as much to blame by leaving their brains on the plane when they land and being stupid enough to use the developers lawyer?
Would you use the same lawyer in the UK? 
Of course not, so why do it when buying property abroad when you should actually be more vigilant, not less.


----------



## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

5Stingray5 said:


> Of course the solicitors are to blame if they complete and give your money away without first securing the title deeds.
> The solicitors are the pivotal point here, they should carry out all necessary searches as well as not releasing cash until the title deeds are secure.


The lawyers ARE NOT to blame for the fact that it takes so long to secure title deeds. You obviously DO NOT know how the system works here.
Title deeds cannot be issued until the whole of a project is finished and the final certificate is issued. When buying off plan on a large project it is impossible to issue title deeds on purchase. The ones who buy at the startof a project will wait much longer than the last ones to purchase if a project takes several years to complete as the larger ones often do.


----------



## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

PeteandSylv said:


> There is however a process that registers your sale and right to the Title Deeds when you make the purchase. (Apologies but the official name of this escapes me at present) Pete


Specific performance


----------



## 5Stingray5 (Dec 21, 2012)

PeteandSylv said:


> If "don't complete" is your only solution to this then the housing market would have collapsed years ago.
> 
> Understand that it is the rules for issuing Title Deeds and the laws surrounding them that are the root of the problem exacerbated by the slothful Land Registry.
> 
> ...


Which part of if they don't complete without securing the title deeds eliminates the problem do you find hard to understand?
I asked my UK solicitor about this issue, he said don't touch anything without tile deeds available or already issued in the case of a resale.
No decent solicitor would continue with the business if title deeds were not available.


----------



## 5Stingray5 (Dec 21, 2012)

Veronica said:


> The lawyers ARE NOT to blame for the fact that it takes so long to secure title deeds. You obviously DO NOT know how the system works here.
> Title deeds cannot be issued until the whole of a project is finished and the final certificate is issued. When buying off plan on a large project it is impossible to issue title deeds on purchase. The ones who buy at the startof a project will wait much longer than the last ones to purchase if a project takes several years to complete as the larger ones often do.


Not all building is on a project.


----------



## 5Stingray5 (Dec 21, 2012)

Veronica said:


> Don't you think that the buyers are as much to blame by leaving their brains on the plane when they land and being stupid enough to use the developers lawyer?
> Would you use the same lawyer in the UK?
> Of course not, so why do it when buying property abroad when you should actually be more vigilant, not less.


Exactly and that is why we were sensible enough to dismiss any potential property that did not have title deeds.
It still doesn't excuse the lawyer having a conflict of interest considering the Cypriot legal system claims to be modelled on the UK system, surely a UK solicitor would be in trouble for acting the way Cypriot solicitors do.


----------



## 5Stingray5 (Dec 21, 2012)

Veronica said:


> The lawyers ARE NOT to blame for the fact that it takes so long to secure title deeds. You obviously DO NOT know how the system works here.


I knew enough not to buy without getting the title deeds so I guess that makes me one up on those who did.


----------



## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

5Stingray5 said:


> Which part of if they don't complete without securing the title deeds eliminates the problem do you find hard to understand?
> I asked my UK solicitor about this issue, he said don't touch anything without tile deeds available or already issued in the case of a resale.
> No decent solicitor would continue with the business if title deeds were not available.


I'm not going to bother to continue discussing this with you as you are determined to be "right" despite 2 people explaining the situation of how it works here and your clear failure to understand or want to understand this.

Pete


----------



## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

5Stingray5 said:


> Not all building is on a project.


You have never made it clear you are talking about resales in particular.
Of course in the case of resales it is preferable for title deeds to have been issued, but in the case of a property bought off plan from a developer it is impossible for title deeds to be available. Anyone who is not lucky enough to be a cash buyer who needs a mortgage has no option but to go to a developer as they can help with mortgages.
For the past two years even when buying off plan it has been difficult to get a mortgage unless you have you have a very good deposit and no banks will give mortgages on resales if they don't have title deeds and you need at least 50% deposit.


----------



## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

I agree with Pete that it is a waste of time carrying on this conversation with someone who clearly thinks he knows better than everyone else.
Having well and truly hijacked someone elses thread and gone totally off topic I think its time to close this thread now.


----------

