# thinking of moving to spain



## haydal (Apr 7, 2015)

Hello
is there anyone on here that could give us some advice?

me my partner and 5 kids are thinking of moving to spain.
im currently s builder by trade in the uk and have my own business here. i do internal renovations kitchens, bathrooms, tiling, painting, plastering and plumbing and am able to do carpentry work ie doors etc.. is there much call for english builders to do this sort of work? are they in demand or in the recession is it difficult to find work? any info would be really great.
Also, we was looking at the alicante area is there alot of english people already there trying to do the same thing? 

what are schools like out there? 

thanks darren


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

Hi and welcome to the forum. I would love to give you positive advice but I'm afraid the building trade here has completely collapsed. There are many Spanish builders who have been out of work for many years now and the chances of you finding such work are extremely limited. Your best bet would be to come over for some fact finding visits to see if your particular skills are sought after. The worst thing you could do would be to leave UK with your wife and kids only to discover there really is no work at all. But, you might get lucky - some have -and visit and find a niche for yourself. Good luck.


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## haydal (Apr 7, 2015)

thank you for your reply, 
we are going to come over in june so will have a look around and find out as much as we can then, yer definatly dont want to up and move before i know if im going to definatly get work,


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## Gareth54 (Nov 8, 2014)

Don't know what ages your kids are? Even if you find any work which is doubtful if you don't speak fluent Spanish your childrens education will be a problem number 2. Older than 10 will probably mean they will have to go to an international school and they are not cheap.


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## haydal (Apr 7, 2015)

yer we have looked into education and if they needed to go to a private school then thats something we would have to do, kids are 5,7,10,13,15, 
why would i need to speak fluent spanish to get work, surely there are so many english out there and english that rent their apartements/villas out that would need work doing


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

haydal said:


> yer we have looked into education and if they needed to go to a private school then thats something we would have to do, kids are 5,7,10,13,15,
> why would i need to speak fluent spanish to get work, surely there are so many english out there and english that rent their apartements/villas out that would need work doing


Your 2 older children would need to be in an international school and maybe the 10 yo too. 

You would really need to speak Spanish, there arent enough expats who would use British tradesmen to make it worth your while and of course you would need to be fluent to order any equipment and materials. You would laso need to know about the building regulations, permissions and rules - which are nothing like they are in the UK. 

Sadly the construction industry in Spain was hit the hardest during the recession due to prior over building and its still hasnt recovered. So not only is there very little in the way of building, but those who were in that industry are still struggling and as a consequence, builders are all struggling and if they find work, the pay is very low.

Then there is the need to prove you have healthcare and income to enable you to become a resident - you could become autonomo/self employed, but you have to pay for that. Also, there would be no child allowance or benefits available to you if it didnt work out

Jo xxx


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

Oh yikes, you have three children who are of an age where they almost certainly need International School. That is going to cost a fortune!

If you can't speak Dpanish, how are you going to deal with officialdom and understand the requirements for running a business, buy materials, understand your clients. Severely limited if you think you will only deal with the English, half of whom can't afford to get work done and the other half will happily use Spansih tradesmen. Plastering, etc is done differently in Spain, which is one reason why many will prefer local tradesmen. Another reason, is that many, many are so desperate they will work for only a few euros per hour.

Are you aware of the requirements for getting residence in Spain. Either you need a contract of employment or self employed, or else you have to prove you have approx 600€ per person incl children being paid into a Spanish bank account every month, plus proof of healthcare. Some areas also look for approx 6000€ per person savings instead of/ as well as the monthly income.

Sorry, but I think the chances of you surviving, especially with such a large family, are pretty well zero in the current climate. 

Worth noting, you also won't qualify for any tax credits, child benefit, unemployment benefit, etc.


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## PS51 (Sep 7, 2014)

Why dont you guys give it to this guy straight. You are candy coating it.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

PS51 said:


> Why dont you guys give it to this guy straight. You are candy coating it.


yeah, we do sound a tad "negative" lol!! Nothing would give me greater pleasure than to say ... Yes go for it - it'll be great and you'll be fine............ But, reality???? Five kids???? mass unemployment??? International schools???? no financial welfare????

If he has an alternative income, then yes, its a great place to be. Hot summers, outdoor living, space, views, swimming.............. 

Its a great place to live, but not a great place to make a living at the moment. 

Jo xxx


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## Leper (May 12, 2010)

Hi Haydal,

You sound like a sound person who knows the value of a £1.00 first hand. I reckon you don't speak fluent Spanish (I mean fluent Spanish). You also sound like the supreme family dad. I have no doubt you are a good grafter and not afraid of hard work. 

You need Spain like I need some kind of disease. Unemployment is rife. The Spanish economy will go lower. The Spanish don't have the will or the knowhow to extricate themselves from their depression. They talk big and do little.

When you come in June, enjoy your holiday, take in the sun, drink some Mahou and San Miguel and return to the UK grateful that you are making a good living there. Appreciate what you have because Spain can drain the likes of your goodself without breaking sweat.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

The only people who should be thinking about moving to Spain now are retired folk with good incomes, those with secure contracted employment or those with businesses that they can run from the UK.
Perhaps also young single professionals.
Most long- time British immigrants use Spanish tradespeople. British tradesmen have a bad reputation and most of us speak Spanish.


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## haydal (Apr 7, 2015)

i started here in the uk with nothing in the recession so i believe u can do it anywhere, i employ people full time and works falls into my lap and that is due to me using my brain and setting up a good business that does quality work at affordable prices.
i dnt think im going to move to spain and become a millionaire who doesnt work! i not looking to receive any form of state benefit and would simply rent my 4 bedroom house out in the uk and buy one out right in spain so i would have no mortgage to pay when over there.

i have already looked into education and understand i would have to pay but this is not a problem as my childrne would need to learn to speak fluent Spanish anyway.

Im not looking for a full time holiday or sitting in a pub every night, just to do a days work in the sun to provide for my family and pay my bills. 
What i do here i can do in spain, its just the the little things like having the sun pretty much all year round which makes everyone happier.
My glass has always been half full even when i had nothing. i already have a website up and running in the uk which is a .com so i can use that over there. i would be ranked on the first page of Google within a week as my site already does extremely well.
i am part of the fedaration of master builders here in the uk
if it is that bad with no work why are all you lot still living there!????? surely you would return back to the uk where u would be earning more money??


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

haydal said:


> i started here in the uk with nothing in the recession so i believe u can do it anywhere, i employ people full time and works falls into my lap and that is due to me using my brain and setting up a good business that does quality work at affordable prices.
> i dnt think im going to move to spain and become a millionaire who doesnt work! i not looking to receive any form of state benefit and would simply rent my 4 bedroom house out in the uk and buy one out right in spain so i would have no mortgage to pay when over there.
> 
> i have already looked into education and understand i would have to pay but this is not a problem as my childrne would need to learn to speak fluent Spanish anyway.
> ...



I'm here because I don't need to work. My partner owned a médium sized business, I had a professional career. We have neither the need nor desire to return to the UK. Spain is our home. 
Ir you are so sure you know you will succeed, why ask our opinión? The sad truth is that whatever you may be in the UK, in Spain you will be an immigrant builder in competition with millions of un employed Spanish builders, scrabbling for work at 5€ an hour.
And all of them as eager for work as you and with the huge advantage of being Spanish.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

haydal said:


> if it is that bad with no work why are all you lot still living there!????? surely you would return back to the uk where u would be earning more money??


I am back in the UK  My husband was going to start up a business in Spain as he had a friend doing similar work there. But the recession meant that he had to stay and look after his UK business, his friend in Spain went bust and so husband commuted. My children went to an international school, got their GCSEs and then my son wanted to finish his education in the UK, my daughter hated Spain from the day we landed there..... so after five years we came back - the thing that rarely gets a mention is the cost of the relocations - that wasntt cheap - five figures! We did the same with our UK house, rented it out and rented in Spain - so at least we had that to return to.

I'd go back therein a heart beat, but there isnt any work and the family are here - we go over when we can to visit

Others on here are either retired, or gained their employment and reputations prior to the recession, or have internet based employment. But other friends I have from Spain have mostly returned to the UK

That said, during the recession the pound/euro hit parity, which didnt help us, but now its a different story

Jo xxx


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

haydal said:


> i started here in the uk with nothing in the recession so i believe u can do it anywhere, i employ people full time and works falls into my lap and that is due to me using my brain and setting up a good business that does quality work at affordable prices.
> i dnt think im going to move to spain and become a millionaire who doesnt work! i not looking to receive any form of state benefit and would simply rent my 4 bedroom house out in the uk and buy one out right in spain so i would have no mortgage to pay when over there.
> 
> i have already looked into education and understand i would have to pay but this is not a problem as my childrne would need to learn to speak fluent Spanish anyway.
> ...


The other thing I/my husband would say is that - yes, you've been lucky in the UK and you should be proud. But, part of being successful is to know and understand your market. Inspite of what has been said, you perhaps need to do some more research - the forum is a good place to start and altho negative, we've explained how it is. Now, armed with that information, you need to investigate further and then make your decision. 

TOP TIP: Check the rules, permissions and regulations for building and also check the way houses are built and plumbed!

Jo xxx


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

haydal said:


> i started here in the uk with nothing in the recession so i believe u can do it anywhere, i employ people full time and works falls into my lap and that is due to me using my brain and setting up a good business that does quality work at affordable prices.
> i dnt think im going to move to spain and become a millionaire who doesnt work! i not looking to receive any form of state benefit and would simply rent my 4 bedroom house out in the uk and buy one out right in spain so i would have no mortgage to pay when over there.
> 
> i have already looked into education and understand i would have to pay but this is not a problem as my childrne would need to learn to speak fluent Spanish anyway.
> ...


Most of those still living in Spain are, as already stated, either retired, semi retired, running Internet businesses, working offshore in the UK or elsewhere, married to Spaniards......

25% unemployment, over 50% for the under 25 age group, means millions of skilled tradesmen are vying for whatever little work is available and 5 to 10€ per hour is a fact.

Spain is a mess of bureaucracy, every little bit of work like re-tiling needs a license, and you will struggle with this unless you speak a Spanish. 

All the odds are stacked against you. Stay in the UK where you are making a good living and can afford lots of sunshine holidays.

No one is suggesting you are incapable, lazy, want to sit in the sun and booze......it's just the economy in Spain is so, so bad and especially builder work.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Call me cynical, but I' m wondering if the OP is genuine
If he is, apologies


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I cant see any reason to suspect that he isnt genuine - lets face it, we all have wanted to move to Spain and "live the dream" at some point. Some have done it and it has been successful, others havent. But we've all had to do the investigative work and to sound it out. Those who did it before the recession are the lucky ones. Not only the employment statistics have changed, but the rules are different nowadays tho and they are enforced strictly. 

But its ok for someone to want to look into it seriously and altho our comments have been negative, its part of the search. "Forewarned is forearmed" 

Jo xxx


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

PS51 said:


> Why dont you guys give it to this guy straight. You are candy coating it.


If you've got something to say, say it,

You do it your way, let others do it their way.

Go on.... your way.....


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Hi Haydal,

Your position seems quite good in that you can live to some extent on rental income and reside in a house that you'll buy outright. As long as you get some work you'll be OK.

But, there are two obstacles. Firstly, competition in your business will be very strong, secondly, although there are a lot of English speaking people here, you really will need to speak Spanish to get along, for all the reasons others have already pointed out.

I'm one of those people who doesn't work here, so that's why the economic situation doesn't affect me. But, I have to say, I am not the sort who British workers can rely on for business. Just about every job I ever had done in the UK was sub standard (until I intervened to put things right) and full of hassle. I employed builders in the boom times in the UK and due to them juggling multiple jobs, I sometimes thought I would only see them on site again if I reported them missing to the police. I really couldn't have a lower opinion than I do of UK tradesmen. I therefore put my business the way of Spanish companies whenever I can. And from many comments I have seen here, I am not alone in steering clear of the Brits.


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## DunWorkin (Sep 2, 2010)

When we first came here 11 years ago we used British (or at least English speaking) builders, plumbers, electricians etc.

We were let down so many times by workmen claiming to have skills they did not really have, giving guarantees which meant absolutely nothing in law etc that we now only use local Spanish companies or people who have been personally recommended to us. Many of our friends and neighbours have had similar problems.

Apart from any other problems you may encounter you will be trying to persuade people that you are not like the thousands of cowboy British builders.

If you were a young, single man without any responsibilities I would say come out and give it a try but keep open an escape route back to the UK but, as a married man with a large family to support, my advice, like others have said, is enjoy Spain on holiday and maybe look forward to retiring here when the family is grown up and off your hands.


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## haydal (Apr 7, 2015)

thanks for your comments as honesty is best 
dunworking- there are good and bad in all trades in all country's i find bad workman ship every day from polish Albanian eastern European and yes the English im afraid there are good and bad in every country in the world 
i just do good work i so-pose that's why im always busy


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

We have a good friend who was a master builder in UK and moved here 12 years ago. He didn't advertise for work because he was so good word of mouth meant he was always fully employed. Even after the crash he was still able to be fully employed until 2 years ago. As others have mentioned you need a licence to do almost any building work and the nature and method of obtaining the licences from the local town halls changes from one town hall to another. But the problem our friend had was that the town halls were not prepared to grant him any licences for any work. Never had a problem with it before but now it is proving to be impossible. Last year he discovered why this was happening. He isn't Spanish and the town halls around here will only grant a licence to an approved Spanish builder.


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## DunWorkin (Sep 2, 2010)

thrax said:


> We have a good friend who was a master builder in UK and moved here 12 years ago. He didn't advertise for work because he was so good word of mouth meant he was always fully employed. Even after the crash he was still able to be fully employed until 2 years ago. As others have mentioned you need a licence to do almost any building work and the nature and method of obtaining the licences from the local town halls changes from one town hall to another. But the problem our friend had was that the town halls were not prepared to grant him any licences for any work. Never had a problem with it before but now it is proving to be impossible. Last year he discovered why this was happening. He isn't Spanish and the town halls around here will only grant a licence to an approved Spanish builder.


Is that legal? Can the town hall really refuse a licence just because the applicant is not Spanish?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Horlics said:


> I really couldn't have a lower opinion than I do of UK tradesmen. I therefore put my business the way of Spanish companies whenever I can. And from many comments I have seen here, I am not alone in steering clear of the Brits.


How right you are. I mentioned in another thread that 4 houses close to mine are currently being reformed after a change of ownership, and in 3 of those the work is being done by Spanish tradesmen. The 4th is in the hands of a British outfit. They have been working on it for several weeks, we pass the house at least twice every day and have absolutely no idea what they are doing that is taking so long as we rarely hear any sounds of, or see any evidence of, substantial works. The Spanish workmen, however, have totally transformed the houses they're working on, both inside and out, in half the time - floors dug up and relaid, plaster knocked off walls and replastered, outside walls rerendered and retiled, etc. I just hate to think what the new British owners are paying their "builders" for whatever it is they're supposed to be doing.

We fell foul of this ourselves when we first bought our house and later found out we'd paid five times as much (yes, five times) to a British guy for some building work that a Spanish tradesman would have charged. Never again.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Yep, the last few comments don't surprise me. This is what you're up against haydal. It's no fault of yours, of course, but many of us avoid Brits, it's just safer to use long-established Spanish businesses with all the licenses.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Apart from anything else, the Spanish builders don't have international school fees for several children to pay for, which might be one reason why their prices are lower!


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

DunWorkin said:


> Is that legal? Can the town hall really refuse a licence just because the applicant is not Spanish?


My understanding is that is not legal and falls foul of several EU rules, and there is the problem. A builder is going to take on the town hall for refusing to grant a licence?? I doubt it.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Even if it probably is easier setting up shop in an expat community you would still need a reputation and that is harder to come by.
It's probably worth coming over on a holiday and seeing if you can find work working for someone else first for a year or two to get some experience in and see just if you can compete. 
There are lots of people that will only use English speaking tradesmen but you need to be in the right areas and a lot of the business come via word of mouth or facebook groups. 
I have no idea if it is enough work to see you through however and I wouldn't want to do it but people clearly do.

For us we will only take on a tradesman from a recommendation from work colleagues or if we can see that someone is doing a good job.
Not bothered on their nationality but given we are in Spain it's likely they will be Spanish.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

DunWorkin said:


> Is that legal? Can the town hall really refuse a licence just because the applicant is not Spanish?


Of course it's not legal.
But it doesn't stop it happening just as it can happen in any number of regions - or countries.


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

To counterbalance the anti British builders brigade, the one I have used is great. The native guy I have used is good too. Perhaps I have been lucky, but I have also done my homework by 1) agreeing the price upfront, 2) meeting with them to get a good feel of their experience, methods, promptness, etc 3) agreed payment terms upfront, 4) asked for names of referees and emailed them directly to get a personal reply, 5) checked their business address is legit 6) carried out an Internet search 7) got the licences from the town hall myself beforehand (minor works).


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Short of DNA test and stool samples I don't think you could have been more thorough


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Strictly speaking it's up to the property owner to apply for the licence, not the builder. I don't know whether the Ayuntamiento have to give reasons for refusing to grant one, but as we all know, they are a law unto themselves.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Helenameva said:


> To counterbalance the anti British builders brigade, the one I have used is great. The native guy I have used is good too. Perhaps I have been lucky, but I have also done my homework by 1) agreeing the price upfront, 2) meeting with them to get a good feel of their experience, methods, promptness, etc 3) agreed payment terms upfront, 4) asked for names of referees and emailed them directly to get a personal reply, 5) checked their business address is legit 6) carried out an Internet search 7) got the licences from the town hall myself beforehand (minor works).



... just wondering why you needed referees????????  :rofl:

(references per chance?)


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

Whilst the onus is indeed on the owner to apply for the licence, around here it is quite a common practice for the owner to give his builder the authority to apply. In either case, however, if the owner is not employing an authorised Spanish builder a licence will not be granted.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> ... just wondering why you needed referees????????  :rofl:
> 
> (references per chance?)


referee - definition of referee by The Free Dictionary  





> *ref·e·ree*
> 
> (rĕf′ə-rē′)_n._*1. * One to whom something is referred, especially for settlement, decision, or an opinion as to the thing's quality.


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## ElenitaGalesa (Mar 29, 2015)

A couple of nasty barbs regarding haydal having 5 children. A bit of prejudice going on there.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

ElenitaGalesa said:


> A couple of nasty barbs regarding haydal having 5 children. A bit of prejudice going on there.


:welcome:

no prejudice about him having 5 children - just a lot of factual information about how seriously difficult it is to make a living here - & obviously the more children you have, the more difficult it is, financially, to support them - especially if they are of an age where they'd have to have private education

the information would have been the same if he'd had only one or two children

I've been here more than 11 years & have an established business which is doing pretty well - I struggle to support my two - I'd stand no chance if I had 5


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> I cant see any reason to suspect that he isnt genuine - lets face it, we all have wanted to move to Spain and "live the dream" at some point.
> 
> Jo xxx


I didn't. Never did, can't stand the phrase.Sandra began to dislike Prague, wanted to move to Spain so we did and it grew on me.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> referee - definition of referee by The Free Dictionary


Yup, and the people who write references for you should be referred to as "Referees" on your CV, but many people (mistakenly) write "References" instead.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> :welcome:
> 
> no prejudice about him having 5 children - just a lot of factual information about how seriously difficult it is to make a living here - & obviously the more children you have, the more difficult it is, financially, to support them - especially if they are of an age where they'd have to have private education
> 
> ...


Exactly. Paying international school fees for 3 older children would be 3 times the price of the cost for one, would it not? Probably €20,000 per year, at least, which the OP would need to earn on top of their other living costs.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

It's a bit PC on here, not supposed to point out the blatantly obvious considerations


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Chopera said:


> Yup, and the people who write references for you should be referred to as "Referees" on your CV, but many people (mistakenly) write "References" instead.


Ooops. I stand corrected.


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

snikpoh said:


> Ooops. I stand corrected.


And oops only has two 'o's, not three. 


Your spelling is awful, your grammar is worse..........but you'd still get a job in an English academy over here


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## Gareth54 (Nov 8, 2014)

In my opinion your best bet, reading the posts here is to buy a house here and send partner and kids over on every school break. If you can join them fine, if through pressure of work you can't, you can't. The kids will pick up Spanish through making friends here - enough to get by - but not enough to study here.
By your own words your business needs you to run successfuly, so personally I would keep it going and plan for retirement to your house in Spain in however many years that may be.


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## Gareth54 (Nov 8, 2014)

Helenameva said:


> And oops only has two 'o's, not three.
> 
> 
> Your spelling is awful, your grammar is worse..........but you'd still get a job in an English academy over here


Would I? Not that I need a job, just interested. Only spoken Dutch the last 35 years and occasionally French and English on holidays there.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> Exactly. Paying international school fees for 3 older children would be 3 times the price of the cost for one, would it not? Probably €20,000 per year, at least, which the OP would need to earn on top of their other living costs.


I think many (or perhaps most) schools offer a discount for the third child onwards. Maybe half price even. Having said that, I think it would come to more than €20,000 per year for an international school. It varies with age and school of course, but I generally assume they cost about €10k/year per child once you've included the various extras (uniform, bus, meals, materials, etc).


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Helenameva said:


> And oops only has two 'o's, not three.
> 
> 
> Your spelling is awful, your grammar is worse..........but you'd still get a job in an English academy over here


and, while we are at it (correcting other people's grammar and spelling): 


> no prejudice about him having 5 children


 should be "*his* having five children".


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