# Is Spanish property a good investment?



## trentfrog

Hi

Looking for people’s personal opinions here, so only want to here from people not involved in the Spanish property sector please. 

From your own personal experience, has your Spanish property (now or sold in th past) been a good investment for you? 

I have been living in Valencia for 10 years now renting. I have looked to buy a property on many occasions but when I look at the taxes, commissions and all the closing costs, and then all the costs and taxes when selling here it doesn’t make sense to me to buy unless I was going to live in it until I die. 

Plus, i would probably renovate it too and am totally freaked out with planning permission and dodgy construction here. 

Any thoughts?


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## baldilocks

trentfrog said:


> Hi
> 
> Looking for people’s personal opinions here, so only want to here from people not involved in the Spanish property sector please.
> 
> From your own personal experience, has your Spanish property (now or sold in th past) been a good investment for you?
> 
> I have been living in Valencia for 10 years now renting. I have looked to buy a property on many occasions but when I look at the taxes, commissions and all the closing costs, and then all the costs and taxes when selling here it doesn’t make sense to me to buy unless I was going to live in it until I die.
> 
> Plus, i would probably renovate it too and am totally freaked out with planning permission and dodgy construction here.
> 
> Any thoughts?


Our "investment" is down in value, largely because of the "crisis". However, we have enjoyed where we live and will continue to do so for as long as we can. Renting is a fools game, all you are doing is giving other people money. We bought our house outright so no interest, etc. Property taxes here are quite low by comparison with France and UK. Here we pay about 150€ per annum for IBI for s house with 4 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms spread over 5 floors and space in a habitable attic for two more bedrooms and another bathroom. In UK, 10 years ago, we paid £840 per annum for a 1 bedroom flat


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## Jumar

If you want to buy a place to live in for as long as possible then a reasonably priced property is a good purchase (perhaps not an investment). But if you buy and want to resell within the next (say 10) years you could be buying into a problem. We're renting for the foreseeable future (9 years in the same property so far!) and what we've spent on rent we're happy with cos we can move whenever we want.

After all the future negotiations are finalised we may think again! Time will tell but if things go pear shaped our biggest problem is getting rid of unwanted possessions!


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## trentfrog

Thanks for your input. It is much appreciated. 

I forgot to say that if I buy a property I would need a mortgage of 80%. So, another major thing to think about.


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## The Skipper

trentfrog said:


> Hi
> 
> Looking for people’s personal opinions here, so only want to here from people not involved in the Spanish property sector please.
> 
> From your own personal experience, has your Spanish property (now or sold in th past) been a good investment for you?
> 
> I have been living in Valencia for 10 years now renting. I have looked to buy a property on many occasions but when I look at the taxes, commissions and all the closing costs, and then all the costs and taxes when selling here it doesn’t make sense to me to buy unless I was going to live in it until I die.
> 
> Plus, i would probably renovate it too and am totally freaked out with planning permission and dodgy construction here.
> 
> Any thoughts?


My house has been informally valued at just over half what I paid for it and spent on it over the last yen years but I have no regrets. It is the house of my dreams and I am not looking to sell. I sold my UK house at the top of the market and got GBP 25,000 more than I ever expected so I can´t grumble too much. All the evidence I am seeing and hearing at the moment suggests that the market is at last moving again. Two properties near to me that have been on the market for years have recently sold and an estate agent friend has told me that he is now as busy as he was before the crash in 2008. Another friend who is a manager with a large Spanish construction company tells me that they are busy again for the first time in years, especially picking up on projects that were abandoned after the crash (infrastructure for new urbanizations in particular). Also, I read in the Spanish press a few weeks ago that building companies are having trouble finding enough skilled bricklayers and are once again looking to Romania and Poland for workers as they did in the boom years. My advice would be to buy now before prices start to soar, as they surely will, once the recovery gains momentum.


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## Megsmum

I think viewing houses as investments is a dangerous road to go down..... hence thousands of unsold repossessed properties. Just my opinion. Good luck


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## Chica22

No one can really predict the future, although similar to the UK, a property in a large city in a good location may increase in value purely due to supply and demand.

Many people bought at the peak of the boom and therefore their houses have decreased in value. We purchased our main residence in 2004 and if we were to sell we would probably receive around the same price that we paid for the property, but we havent had to pay rent for the past 14 years.

Compare this to an apartment we purchased 25 years ago, and sold last week. We made 120,000 euros profit. Maybe in the next 5 years there is another boom, and we will all be property millionares Who knows?

Certainly with the punitive taxes on purchasing a property it has to be viewed as a long term investment (more than 10 years) as opposed to a short term gain.


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## Williams2

As far as buying houses with a view to investment is concerned - the old hackneyed phrase no doubt rings true in Spain,
as much as it does in the UK namely - so long as the property concerned is in good condition, etc . . then its down to . . . . . 

Location, location, location.


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## fhanrah

When you go to sell your home, its only worth what people are willing to pay. I purchased last year, I made 2 offers, First offer was cheeky, the 2nd was well below the asking price and I made it very much a take it or leave it offer. It was accepted and the owner took a big hit.


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## Lynn R

Chica22 said:


> No one can really predict the future, although similar to the UK, a property in a large city in a good location may increase in value purely due to supply and demand.
> 
> Many people bought at the peak of the boom and therefore their houses have decreased in value. We purchased our main residence in 2004 and if we were to sell we would probably receive around the same price that we paid for the property, but we havent had to pay rent for the past 14 years.
> 
> Compare this to an apartment we purchased 25 years ago, and sold last week. We made 120,000 euros profit. Maybe in the next 5 years there is another boom, and we will all be property millionares Who knows?
> 
> Certainly with the punitive taxes on purchasing a property it has to be viewed as a long term investment (more than 10 years) as opposed to a short term gain.


Yes, I agree. I bought my first property in Spain in 2003 and sold it last year for the same price I originally paid - but that didn't include the 10% additional costs on purchasing with transfer tax, legal and notary fees, nor the near 10% selling costs with estate agent's commission and plus valia - nor did it include the cost of improvements made to the property. However, as you say, we had not paid any rent during that period which is money we would not have recouped anything from. So just to cover costs anyone buying a property and selling it again would have to get 20% more than the original purchase price just to break even, not counting the cost of improvements.

I don't regret buying, in fact I bought again as I wanted a different type of property in a different location this time, for practical reasons, but I certainly wouldn't regard it as an investment.


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## baldilocks

To the OP: I guess the answer to your question is "No" or "Maybe"

However, most of us who have bought, did so with a view to living where we wanted to, hassle-free (no awkward landlords) safe in the knowledge that whatever we did to the property was for our own benefit. So much depends on the market when you buy and when you sell but that applies wherever you buy property, Spain, Portugal, USA, UK Russia...


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## Lynn R

Another thing to bear in mind is how exchange rate fluctuations affect the price of property. Had I wanted to return to the UK after I sold my old house last year (as many sellers do), transferring the proceeds back to sterling at that time (when sterling was almost 30% lower against the euro than it was when I bought the property) would in fact have meant that I would have covered all the buying and selling costs as well - but I didn't. I wanted to stay here.


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## Overandout

I agree with the majority.

We bought in 2007 in Madrid and 4 years later the place was worth less than half what we had paid and about half of what we owed on the mortgage (a similar mortgage % to what you are looking at).

We were cautious enough to have foreseen an economic decline and although my wife lost her job, I did not, so we were able to keep paying the mortgage, unlike many.

Now we are probably about even in terms of the current value / current mortgage debt, but we don't expect to be able to sell for what we paid in out lifetimes.

However, we do rent it out (its too small for us to live in now) and the rent covers around 80% of the costs and that is improving. We expect that very soon, the rent will cover 100% of the costs, so as a very long term investment, it may provide us with some retirement income.


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## Williams2

Maybe the OP might get a better return on his investment by looking at properties that have Buy to
Let potential but along the lines of Buy to Holiday Let in the popular holiday resorts, Golf Resorts, etc, etc 
of the Med in Spain, for with the 'good weather' lasting longer than a typical UK summer.
It could be a more promising avenue to explore rather than buying a property with a view to realising
any medium to near term capital appreciation. Of course this depends on whether the OP can afford
a second property above the one his renting, etc, etc.


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## Isobella

So many bought to let on the Costa del Sol that most are empty ten months of the year. Walk around some and they are deserted. Golfers on holiday mostly prefer hotels. Buying there I would call a lifestyle investment. If you are living in it , like it and intend to stay, what does it matter.
We sold one during the boom and did extremely well as we bought during another recession but bought another which put a dent in the profits. If I were to live in Spain permanently I would buy for investment in UK and rent in Spain.


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## Isobella

Lynn R said:


> Another thing to bear in mind is how exchange rate fluctuations affect the price of property. Had I wanted to return to the UK after I sold my old house last year (as many sellers do), transferring the proceeds back to sterling at that time (when sterling was almost 30% lower against the euro than it was when I bought the property) would in fact have meant that I would have covered all the buying and selling costs as well - but I didn't. I wanted to stay here.


Yes it can be to your advantage. UK buyers are aware though and have been expecting owners to discount more. It could happen in reverse if the pound went back to 1.40 and someone had bought at 1.12. One never knows with currencies.


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## trentfrog

Isobella said:


> So many bought to let on the Costa del Sol that most are empty ten months of the year. Walk around some and they are deserted. Golfers on holiday mostly prefer hotels. Buying there I would call a lifestyle investment. If you are living in it , like it and intend to stay, what does it matter.
> We sold one during the boom and did extremely well as we bought during another recession but bought another which put a dent in the profits. If I were to live in Spain permanently I would buy for investment in UK and rent in Spain.


Thanks Isobella. My husband and I have been thinking about buying in Uk for asset investment and continuing to rent in Spain. However, we would still need to get a mortgage and then hire a property management company to rent and deal with the maintenance which I think would eat up a lot of the rent money we would be collecting to cover mortgage.


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## Isobella

trentfrog said:


> Thanks Isobella. My husband and I have been thinking about buying in Uk for asset investment and continuing to rent in Spain. However, we would still need to get a mortgage and then hire a property management company to rent and deal with the maintenance which I think would eat up a lot of the rent money we would be collecting to cover mortgage.


Yes one size does not fit all. We rented our UK property for two years whilst working abroad. The management co, were excellent, a bit more expensive than some but they got a higher rental than expected, they did routine inspections, vetted renters, everything. Was a nice little nest egg when we got back plus the value had gone up.

The difficulty with Spain is the high buying and selling costs. In a static property market buyers are in negative equity for a while. Not a problem if living there but there is no quick exit. If I were to invest in Spain it would be in commercial property. Someone I know did that, started buying locales in Fuengirola and it appears to have been very lucrative....of course you can't use them for holidays Unless there was a flat above.


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## Williams2

Isobella said:


> So many bought to let on the Costa del Sol that most are empty ten months of the year. Walk around some and they are deserted. Golfers on holiday mostly prefer hotels. Buying there I would call a lifestyle investment. If you are living in it , like it and intend to stay, what does it matter.
> We sold one during the boom and did extremely well as we bought during another recession but bought another which put a dent in the profits. If I were to live in Spain permanently I would buy for investment in UK and rent in Spain.


Yes but as many people have said things are picking up in Spain since the 2008 Financial crisis and there's real evidence
that builders are completing their abandoned building projects.

Although it can be a gamble bearing in mind the old adage - Location, location, location. Then now could be the
time to buy when things are picking up.
Finally those Channel 4 & Channel 5 move to Spain programs are still enjoying good viewing figures.


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## Juan C

Trent You titled this thread "Is Spanish property a good investment?"

I would have said, probably not.

Then you said, 80% Mortgage.

So now I would say NO WAY FORGET IT, if you really mean "Is Spanish property a good investment?"


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## angkag

One thing I can't help but notice is that while there are seem to be a gazillion second-hand properties for sale that seem unsellable, new developments continue to be built and manage to sell off their units. So seems to be a market for new properties, but not secondhand ones. Almost like cars where the moment you take it on the road (or open the front door in the house case), then you can wipe 30% off the value. Curious.


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## trentfrog

Juan C said:


> Trent You titled this thread "Is Spanish property a good investment?"
> 
> I would have said, probably not.
> 
> Then you said, 80% Mortgage.
> 
> So now I would say NO WAY FORGET IT, if you really mean "Is Spanish property a good investment?"


Juan C

Tell me more of your opinion please.


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## Chopera

My rule of thumb is that you need to expect to live in a property in Spain for at least 10 years to make purchasing it a better option than renting. Of course this is a simplification and varies according to local markets, personal circumstances and other factors. But it's a starting point.

If you are considering buying to let in Spain then that's a different matter. Personally I wouldn't go near it in Spain. I'm sure people have made money out of it but I've seen too many people get burnt. Not just by property prices, but by problems with tenants as well.


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## skip o

Chopera said:


> If you are considering buying to let in Spain then that's a different matter. Personally I wouldn't go near it in Spain.


Yeah, I have been both a renter and a landlord in the US and I wouldn't opt to be a landlord in Spain even if I was given a free property. Low return on investment, high potential for problems.

My #1 rule of investment is... what are you going to do in the worst case scenario? If your house plummets in value, are you going to be screwed? Or are you going to continue to own it and not care? If you are going to be screwed, don't do it.


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## trentfrog

Chopera said:


> My rule of thumb is that you need to expect to live in a property in Spain for at least 10 years to make purchasing it a better option than renting. Of course this is a simplification and varies according to local markets, personal circumstances and other factors. But it's a starting point.
> 
> If you are considering buying to let in Spain then that's a different matter. Personally I wouldn't go near it in Spain. I'm sure people have made money out of it but I've seen too many people get burnt. Not just by property prices, but by problems with tenants as well.


Thanks for the starting point.


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## trentfrog

skip o said:


> Yeah, I have been both a renter and a landlord in the US and I wouldn't opt to be a landlord in Spain even if I was given a free property. Low return on investment, high potential for problems.
> 
> My #1 rule of investment is... what are you going to do in the worst case scenario? If your house plummets in value, are you going to be screwed? Or are you going to continue to own it and not care? If you are going to be screwed, don't do it.


Thanks! This is close to what I was thinking but was getting scared I was missing out on something by not buying. I don’t wanna get screwed.


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## trentfrog

More opinions please. Positive and negative welcome.


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## Williams2

Trentfrog - Have you ever considered moving into the Sunbeds for Hire business in Spain because for a modest
outlay and a good pitch, you could be coining it from all those Sunbed derived British and German tourist's
on the Costa's.

As you might have seen on the news - Thomas Cook think it's a winner, charging tourists £22 for a Sunbed 
reserved online before starting their holiday in Spain.


La Tasca - Sun lounge wars hots up on the Costa's


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## KG5

trentfrog said:


> More opinions please. Positive and negative welcome.


Very relevant as we are looking at selling in the UK (our main home which currently rented out, and keeping a small cottage we have home rented out so we have some "skin in the game" I think they call it) and buying over here.

My list so far after researching and speaking to others

Cons

- I haven't met a person yet who said buying was a good move *
- The costs associated with buying
- The fact that even if you negotiate a great deal the state can tax you on what they deem the value to be
- The unknowns due to being new here eg planning concerns, external factors like a local council simply charging all residents on an urbanisation for the cost of road improvements etc 

* Almost anyone who has bought since the early 2000s has been hit by economic factors affecting the whole world to some extent so this is a big factor

Pros

- We love life here and want the kids to grow up here, buying will bring a certain additional level of comfort/stability/enjoyment for us
- The prospects for Spain v UK in terms of property, whilst obviously dependent on location specifics, seem potentially better, at least in the next 5 years. Market picking up (probably very slowly) and Brexit costs/unrest etc mean the UK could and probably will be in for a rough ride in the next 2/3 years
- We live, and would buy, in a town that is close to Malaga, a relatively strong economy with diversified job opportunities, strong tourist demand (from within Spain as well as without), excellent air, road and rail links, and we would buy in an area by the sea, surrounded by mountains and therefore a limited supply of housing in the most desirable areas 

As you can probably tell, I'm leaning more towards buying here.

We would buy with the worst case in mind - basically that we could rent the place out if we needed to go back - and without overstretching ourselves financially.

All that said, we love our rental home and could consider committing to that longer term and making it more our own in that process - I don't see rent as dead money like some do if the cost is reasonable.

So there's my opinion!


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## baldilocks

KG5 said:


> Very relevant as we are looking at selling in the UK (our main home which currently rented out, and keeping a small cottage we have home rented out so we have some "skin in the game" I think they call it) and buying over here.
> 
> My list so far after researching and speaking to others
> 
> Cons
> 
> -* I haven't met a person yet who said buying was a good move *
> - The costs associated with buying
> - The fact that even if you negotiate a great deal the state can tax you on what they deem the value to be
> - The unknowns due to being new here eg planning concerns, external factors like a local council simply charging all residents on an urbanisation for the cost of road improvements etc
> *
> * Almost anyone who has bought since the early 2000s has been hit by economic factors affecting the whole world to some extent so this is a big factor
> 
> Pros
> 
> - We love life here and want the kids to grow up here, buying will bring a certain additional level of comfort/stability/enjoyment for us
> - The prospects for Spain v UK in terms of property, whilst obviously dependent on location specifics, seem potentially better, at least in the next 5 years. Market picking up (probably very slowly) and Brexit costs/unrest etc mean the UK could and probably will be in for a rough ride in the next 2/3 years
> - We live, and would buy, in a town that is close to Malaga, a relatively strong economy with diversified job opportunities, strong tourist demand (from within Spain as well as without), excellent air, road and rail links, and we would buy in an area by the sea, surrounded by mountains and therefore a limited supply of housing in the most desirable areas
> 
> As you can probably tell, I'm leaning more towards buying here.
> 
> We would buy with the worst case in mind - basically that we could rent the place out if we needed to go back - and without overstretching ourselves financially.
> 
> All that said, we love our rental home and could consider committing to that longer term and making it more our own in that process - I don't see rent as dead money like some do if the cost is reasonable.
> 
> So there's my opinion!


Absolute balderdash We bought back in 2007 so will have lost some money if we sold but that can happen anywhere (as it did for us in the USA) and only applies if you aren't committed (want to stay) to where you choose to buy. If you decide you want to live some where else so decide to sell, then that is not the fault of the Spanish housing market that is your own fault for not selecting your location/property carefully enough in the first place.

w.r.t. costs, we didn't find them unreasonable and as for getting caught with underpaid taxes, that is usually because the price declared was well below what the authorities deem the property to be worth - avoid brown envelopes!

FWIW, IMO anyone who chooses to buy on an urbanisation needs her/his head seeing to.


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## tarot650

trentfrog said:


> Hi
> 
> Looking for people’s personal opinions here, so only want to here from people not involved in the Spanish property sector please.
> 
> From your own personal experience, has your Spanish property (now or sold in th past) been a good investment for you?
> 
> 
> Any thoughts?


Have no regrets about buying here and after 23years here if we had rented it does not take Sherlock Holmes to work out how much we would have flushed down the toilet pan in rent.We bought our first house in Pesetas just over 7years later we sold it in Euro's as it was coming up to the bubble for 4 times more than what we paid for it and honestly think that will never happen again.Just absolutely crazy,crazy times.Then a lot of people were doing the same as us selling for stupid money on the coast and moving considerable distance inland where property was still cheap.Oh and just to say I did not walk out of the notaries in Fuengirola with a bulging back pocket as that would have been illegal now wouldn't it?


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## Michael Kelly

Property values in Barcelona are now rapidly increasing and rents are at an all time high.


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Our "investment" is down in value, largely because of the "crisis". However, we have enjoyed where we live and will continue to do so for as long as we can. Renting is a fools game, all you are doing is giving other people money. We bought our house outright so no interest, etc. Property taxes here are quite low by comparison with France and UK. Here we pay about 150€ per annum for IBI for s house with 4 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms spread over 5 floors and space in a habitable attic for two more bedrooms and another bathroom. In UK, 10 years ago, we paid £840 per annum for a 1 bedroom flat


It could equally be said that buying a house on a mortgage is a fool's game, all you are doing ispaying a bank or other financial institution multiple times what you paid when you bought the house in interest.
It all depends on your circumstances. I owned several UK properties over my lifetime, all bought outright, made money from renting them.
Now I own no property, have money from the sale of those properties invested with good returns, no worries about repairs, rent a house I couldn't afford to or want to buy at a rent I can comfortably afford with a good landlord. No worries about leaving money as my son has plenty of his own.
I know three elderly Brits, long time residents, thirty years or more, all with properties they own but on fixed incomes they have seen dwindle in value as exchange and interest rates drop. They could sell and rent but can't afford to repair the properties to make them an attractive prospect. One couple have an apartment in a semi- rural location, husband had a stroke, wife can't drive, no shops or buses within walking distance. If they sold they would probably get less than 60k€ and as they have small pension incomes and the wife is fairly young that wouldn't stretch far to rent somewhere decent long term.

I'm very happy renting. At least my money goes into the pocket of a decent person, someone I know and like, not an anonymous grasping bank. I have no worries about repairs, everything needed is done promptly. There is simply no 'right' answer to the rent or buy question. It depends entirely on your personal circumstances. For me having no property is freedom.

But no way would I buy in Spain under any circumstances, or in any other European country. I did buy in Canada but things are straightforward there.


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## mrypg9

Incidentally, my daughter- in - law sadly died unexpectedly and suddenly last week. The property she and my son own here in Spain is in her name. So if my son informs the authorities of her death, as he should, he will be obliged to pay IHT ona property bought twenty years ago and which has greatly increased in value since then. 
If he sells he will of course pay tax on the considerable capital gain..
Problems of ownership to be taken into consideration.


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## Megsmum

KG5 said:


> eaking to others
> 
> Cons
> 
> - I haven't met a person yet who said buying was a good move *
> i!



REALLY

Only those, may I be so bold, would say that if they bought as an investment 

I have no regrets in buying

Others on here rent, with no regrets or feeling that they’ve thrown money away. It’s simply a matter of personal choice and financial resources


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## mrypg9

Megsmum said:


> REALLY
> 
> Only those, may I be so bold, would say that if they bought as an investment
> 
> I have no regrets in buying
> 
> Others on here rent, with no regrets or feeling that they’ve thrown money away. It’s simply a matter of personal choice and financial resources



That's right, it's personal choice. If we had come here when we were younger we might well have bought, who knows. But in our situation it would be silly to buy.
What would happen to any property we had after we've both kicked the bucket? The last thing my son would want would be the responsibility of dealing with another property here. He's considering selling the one he's got although I hope he want as we want to move into it when we are really old and past it.
I'm sure he won't see his poor old mum on the streets.....


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## Jumar

mrypg9 said:


> Incidentally, my daughter- in - law sadly died unexpectedly and suddenly last week. The property she and my son own here in Spain is in her name. So if my son informs the authorities of her death, as he should, he will be obliged to pay IHT ona property bought twenty years ago and which has greatly increased in value since then.
> If he sells he will of course pay tax on the considerable capital gain..
> Problems of ownership to be taken into consideration.



Please may I offer my condolences to you, and your son, on the loss of your daughter in law.


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## Williams2

mrypg9 said:


> That's right, it's personal choice. If we had come here when we were younger we might well have bought, who knows. But in our situation it would be silly to buy.
> What would happen to any property we had after we've both kicked the bucket? The last thing my son would want would be the responsibility of dealing with another property here. He's considering selling the one he's got although I hope he want as we want to move into it when we are really old and past it.
> I'm sure he won't see his poor old mum on the streets.....


Your right - the only reason for buying your own home ( as an investment ) when your over 60 is in the
hope that any capital appreciation will meet the 'Care home fees' of the future but there again there are
those ( of the other extreme ) who would rather not buy another home in their 60 plus years & will gladly
spend, spend, spend it all on round the world cruises, etc, etc and seeing as much of the world as
possible before kicking the bucket.


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## Overandout

The way I see it is that unless you can buy cash outright, you are giving money away.

If you buy with a mortgage, you are giving to the bank (obviously).
If you rent, you are giving to the landlord (who may well in turn be giving to the bank anyway)...

But, at least if you buy with a mortgage you could end up with some capital at the end of it, but it is a risk. With renting there is no risk.

Despite my experience with negative equity on my first purchase, I still went ahead and purchased a second property when the market was low in 2016. Nothing ventured, nothing gained....


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## Lynn R

Overandout said:


> The way I see it is that unless you can buy cash outright, you are giving money away.
> 
> If you buy with a mortgage, you are giving to the bank (obviously).
> If you rent, you are giving to the landlord (who may well in turn be giving to the bank anyway)...
> 
> But, at least if you buy with a mortgage you could end up with some capital at the end of it, but it is a risk. With renting there is no risk.
> 
> Despite my experience with negative equity on my first purchase, I still went ahead and purchased a second property when the market was low in 2016. Nothing ventured, nothing gained....


I did buy my former Spanish home (and my new one) outright. I calculate that we would have paid at least €66k in rent over the 11 years we lived in it on a permanent basis (it was a holiday home for almost 4 years before that), and obviously we wouldn't have got any of that back. The amount we didn't recover when we sold it (in taxes, commission, legal expenses and cost of improvements) was in the region of €35k. So I think overall we were better off buying.


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## Pesky Wesky

I think you have to look at the whole picture and tell people the whole picture if it's going to be useful.
For example, I bought here and I don't regret it (info for KG5!). However, I bought in 1995, married to a Spaniard, pregnant and sure that I was staying. Wouldn't have made much sense for us to have rented if we could avoid it. 
I wouldn't look on buying a house as an investment, we all need somewhere to live.


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## baldilocks

Our purchase was also outright with no intention of moving on. As said before, our purchase was carefully planned following appropriate research. At the time, our ages (SWMBO 48, M-i-l 76, self 66) precluded playing around, wasting time deciding where we wanted to spend the rest of our lives so it had to be the right choice, first time, a choice as to where we wanted to see out our remaining years. 10 years down the line, we think we got it right.


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## trentfrog

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think you have to look at the whole picture and tell people the whole picture if it's going to be useful.
> For example, I bought here and I don't regret it (info for KG5!). However, I bought in 1995, married to a Spaniard, pregnant and sure that I was staying. Wouldn't have made much sense for us to have rented if we could avoid it.
> I wouldn't look on buying a house as an investment, we all need somewhere to live.


Thank you for giving me more of your reasons. My reasons for not knowing whether to buy or keep renting is we are only here because of my husband’s business and really like the place we are renting. It is in the city centre of Valencia and the landlord is great. We would like to continue the business until we retire but after that we can’t say for sure Spain is the place we wanna live until we die. Is it crazy to rent for 15-18 more years though?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

trentfrog said:


> Is it crazy to rent for 15-18 more years though?


That's a very different question to your original one of is Spanish property a good investment...


----------



## trentfrog

Pesky Wesky said:


> That's a very different question to your original one of is Spanish property a good investment...


Yes, you are right. It is a different question born out of the original question about buying property in Spain. Buying vs renting in Spain. I grew up in Canada, but was born in the U.K, and my husband is Welsh. With our backgrounds we always look at real estate as an investment whether you live in it or not, and consider the upfront and costs down the line when selling.


----------



## baldilocks

trentfrog said:


> Is it crazy to rent for 15-18 more years though?


My grandparents rented their house at 5 shillings (1 US$ at that time) per week for 45 years paying out £585 in rent and then they were able to buy it as a sitting tenant for £500. The house, at that time, was valued at £1350 but they then had to lay out money to have it connected the mains water and sewerage plus have electricity connected and all the necessary wiring installed.

I was born in that house and spent most of my early years living there. To me, a favourite smell from those times is the smell of a freshly extinguished candle - bed time.


----------



## Megsmum

trentfrog said:


> Yes, you are right. It is a different question born out of the original question about buying property in Spain. Buying vs renting in Spain. I grew up in Canada, but was born in the U.K, and my husband is Welsh. With our backgrounds we always look at real estate as an investment whether you live in it or not, and consider the upfront and costs down the line when selling.


I don’t see how anyone views buying a home as an investment, particularly in light of the last property crash! Unless it’s buy to let, or long term and even those people got burned 

My own opinion is simple, you buy or rent depending on your own individual circumstances, everything is so subjective. We bought a finca miles from anywhere fully in the knowledge that it’s not going to be easy to sell onwards. We decided to buy now, and rent when we’re are older. When we officially retire in 7 years we will put this on the market Even if we are still capable of managing the land as it’s going to take time to sell. We will rent a village house, as rents here in my village are very cheap €250/300 per month. I don t see the point in buying another house when we are in our late 60s, someone else can have the ongoing upkeep costs. Plus we may want to move to another area as we get older, one may die etc we may need to return to the UK, I don’t foresee that happening but it’s easier to pack up a property you rent than one you own.


Homes are not investments they’re homes


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## Pesky Wesky

trentfrog said:


> Yes, you are right. It is a different question born out of the original question about buying property in Spain. Buying vs renting in Spain. I grew up in Canada, but was born in the U.K, and my husband is Welsh. With our backgrounds we always look at real estate as an investment whether you live in it or not, and consider the upfront and costs down the line when selling.


I'm British and my husband Spanish and neither of us has ever looked on our residence as an investment. An investment is something you do in order to gain profit. I bought my house as a way of providing economic stability. If we ever make money off it, well good, but it's not likely. However, as we were able to buy without a mortgage due to a redundancy package, neither did we incur debts - win win


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## angkag

tarot650 said:


> Have no regrets about buying here and after 23years here if we had rented it does not take Sherlock Holmes to work out how much we would have flushed down the toilet pan in rent.


This is a perrenial myth that paying rent is flushing money down the toilet. If you rent and invest the money elsewhere where it earns more than the percentage you are paying in rent, then purchasing the property is flushing the potential earnings gains down the toilet.

eg I pay 4.2% of the potential purchase price in rent, and consistently earn more than that on the investments made with the money I didn't spend on the house.

If capital gains on the house were a factor (back to op's original question) then it changes, but its unlikely in Spain. Plus buying a house as in investment has high transaction costs and is poor liquidity, plus maintenance costs. All in all, far more economic to rent and invest elsewhere.

Only reason to purchase, as many have pointed out, is the desire to place down roots and have a home, ie its an emotional choice, not an economic one.

edit: I'm no expert in property investment, but a friend who lives here invests all his money in property. He has properties in various countries as investments, but he rents in Spain.

edit 2: Another friend has a problem with hacienda and is having to leave Spain as a result. If he owned his house he would be liable to lose it to them, but he rents, so has the ability to up and leave (problem related to a property investment in England where he bought some land, spent a couple hundred thousand building a house, then sold the house. For reasons unknown, hacienda only recognise the original purchase price of the land and the eventual selling price of the house, slapping an 80,000 euro tax bill on it, which is more than he made in the whole endevour. After a year of trying to sort it out, the 80,000 bill continues to grow through interest, accounts frozen etc, so he's leaving.)


----------



## tarot650

angkag said:


> This is a perrenial myth that paying rent is flushing money down the toilet. If you rent and invest the money elsewhere where it earns more than the percentage you are paying in rent, then purchasing the property is flushing the potential earnings gains down the toilet.
> 
> eg I pay 4.2% of the potential purchase price in rent, and consistently earn more than that on the investments made with the money I didn't spend on the house.
> 
> If capital gains on the house were a factor (back to op's original question) then it changes, but its unlikely in Spain. Plus buying a house as in investment has high transaction costs and is poor liquidity, plus maintenance costs. All in all, far more economic to rent and invest elsewhere.
> 
> Only reason to purchase, as many have pointed out, is the desire to place down roots and have a home, ie its an emotional choice, not an economic one.
> 
> edit: I'm no expert in property investment, but a friend who lives here invests all his money in property. He has properties in various countries as investments, but he rents in Spain.
> 
> edit 2: Another friend has a problem with hacienda and is having to leave Spain as a result. If he owned his house he would be liable to lose it to them, but he rents, so has the ability to up and leave (problem related to a property investment in England where he bought some land, spent a couple hundred thousand building a house, then sold the house. For reasons unknown, hacienda only recognise the original purchase price of the land and the eventual selling price of the house, slapping an 80,000 euro tax bill on it, which is more than he made in the whole endevour. After a year of trying to sort it out, the 80,000 bill continues to grow through interest, accounts frozen etc, so he's leaving.)


We didn't buy as an investment we bought it as a permanent home and holiday home for the family but didn't know that over 7years later we would sell it for 4times more than what we paid for it and out of those profits we bought the home we live in now roughly 120K inland where property was still relatively cheap compared to the coast and i think the wife deserves to have her own home the maintainance gives me somthing to do rather than joining the 11am coffee and brandy brigade.But,on the other side of the coin if I was thinking about coming to live here now I might rent as it's an age thing.Also,like I said if you lived here at the height of the bubble you realise what crazy times it was and even if you invest your money that can always go bottoms up.More than happy to own our own home lock,stock and garage.A greeting.


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## Isobella

There are so many pros and cons for both renting or buying. Not all Landlords are good at carrying out repairs etc. Not all properties are a good buy.

I would never buy overseas if I needed a mortgage. To me it is important to own my home, bought and sold a few times and did OK. No care home will get it. We have thought about downsizing and having a spending spree but would have bought again. but didn't like anything we viewed. Never thought of it as an investment but it is a feel good factor if value increases.

I imagine over the last ten years investments would not have kept up with uk property prices unless it was all gambled on the stock market and lucky.


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## Overandout

Isobella said:


> I would never buy overseas if I needed a mortgage.


What do you mean by "overseas"?

If you live in Spain, work in Spain, pay your tax in Spain, have to abide by Spanish law etc, Spain is not "overseas", it is your home.


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## trentfrog

Overandout said:


> What do you mean by "overseas"?
> 
> If you live in Spain, work in Spain, pay your tax in Spain, have to abide by Spanish law etc, Spain is not "overseas", it is your home.


I wouldn’t consider a purchase here as overseas. Everything we have is here, except for our families.


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## mrypg9

Isobella said:


> There are so many pros and cons for both renting or buying. Not all Landlords are good at carrying out repairs etc. Not all properties are a good buy.
> 
> I would never buy overseas if I needed a mortgage. To me it is important to own m
> 
> 
> y home, bought and sold a few times and did OK. No care home will get it. We have thought about downsizing and having a spending spree but would have bought . but didn't like anything we viewed. Never thought of it as an investment but it is a feel good factor if value increases.
> 
> I imagine over the last ten years investments would not have kept up with uk property prices unless it was all gambled on the stock market and lucky.


I bought my first house at the end of my first year at work out of uni. It was a cheap, smallish house bought cash, like the others I acquired over the years. I gave up being a landlord after a few years as I couldn't be bothered with the hassle, taxes, repairs, troublesome tenants so sold. I think you need a fairly big portfolio of rental properties to make it worthwhile.
The only property I bought overseas was in Canada. It was literally bought on a handshake, cash down and the transaction completed in a couple of weeks. As we decided not to live in Canada I rented it and when I sold it got clobbered for CGT as well as tax on rental income. But I made a profit, it was a nice place in a small town in rural Ontario about a forty minute drive from Ottawa.
Now I just don't want the bother of owning. Been there, done it. Our landlord is coming this weekend to stay at his other house, he always asks if I want him to bring something from Austria, wine, sausage...We think he would be upset if we said we were moving out.
But yes, not all landlords are like our Adelbert. 
We're hoping we can still move in future into my son and dil's property but he needs time to sort his life out. He will most probably work in Warsaw and Shanghai for HSBC and imo the most sensible thing for him to do would be to base himself in the Spanish house.
We shall see.
The important point is that renting and buying are both sensible viable options depending on one's circumstances and feelings.
As for the stock market...how much you make depends on your level of risk acceptance and your fund manager. I am extremely risk adverse which has affected earnings from funds. One investment, super high risk, yielded an amazing 55% last year, another 30%. But because of my unwillingness to take the slightest risk we had very little invested in those funds
Which goes to show that whether in property or the stock market, you need money to make money....


----------



## Horlics

Isobella said:


> I imagine over the last ten years investments would not have kept up with uk property prices unless it was all gambled on the stock market and lucky.


Depends. I have friends in the north of England whose houses are worth less today than when they bought them 10 years ago.

That said, paying rent all that time would have been expensive.

Property is like stocks and shares in that you have to pick the right one(s) and that's not easy to do. The days of it being a sure thing, in most places, are gone.


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## Lynn R

Horlics said:


> Depends. I have friends in the north of England whose houses are worth less today than when they bought them 10 years ago.
> 
> That said, paying rent all that time would have been expensive.
> 
> Property is like stocks and shares in that you have to pick the right one(s) and that's not easy to do. The days of it being a sure thing, in most places, are gone.


According to recorded sale prices on sites like rightmove,zoopla and the Land Registry, there hasn't been a house sold in my old street in the North West for a higher price than we sold for in 2006. So I don't feel I missed out on any capital growth there!

Same situation with houses in the street where my father used to live, in a different town in the North West none sold for a higher price than we sold his house for in 2007.


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## Isobella

Lynn R said:


> According to recorded sale prices on sites like rightmove,zoopla and the Land Registry, there hasn't been a house sold in my old street in the North West for a higher price than we sold for in 2006. So I don't feel I missed out on any capital growth there!
> 
> Same situation with houses in the street where my father used to live, in a different town in the North West none sold for a higher price than we sold his house for in 2007.


d

Not the norm though is it. There may be odd areas but the regions seem to be doing well. They may not have reached the heights of the South but seem steady. The Midlands is booming according to the Guardian. Doncaster, unsuprisingly has done badly.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-house-price-index-hpi-for-july-2017


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## JimmyLocksDad

You're correct Isobella it most certainly is not the norm, recently my eldest son sold his house in Manchester which he bought in 2009 for £189k and sold it middle of last year for £262k, so a decent percentage increase. I guess its as they say all about location and undesirable areas will always remain a tough sell. I agree with you that a great many areas up North have seen positive house price rises year on year.


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## Horlics

Isobella said:


> I imagine over the last ten years investments would not have kept up with uk property prices unless it was all gambled on the stock market and lucky.


Well here it is, make of it what you will:

Cash, stocks or property: Which made best returns over past 30 years? | This is Money

My take-away is that apart from 2000-2007 when property went crazy, equities have outperformed it. Also note, anybody with a mortgage would have to subtract what interest they paid, and also acquisition and disposal costs such as arrangement fees, conveyancing, estate agents, etc. 

I'm actually a bit surprised. I thought it would have been more in favour of property.


----------



## trentfrog

Horlics said:


> Well here it is, make of it what you will:
> 
> Cash, stocks or property: Which made best returns over past 30 years? | This is Money
> 
> My take-away is that apart from 2000-2007 when property went crazy, equities have outperformed it. Also note, anybody with a mortgage would have to subtract what interest they paid, and also acquisition and disposal costs such as arrangement fees, conveyancing, estate agents, etc.
> 
> I'm actually a bit surprised. I thought it would have been more in favour of property.


Thanks for the link to the article. Very interesting reading.


----------



## Williams2

Horlics said:


> Well here it is, make of it what you will:
> 
> Cash, stocks or property: Which made best returns over past 30 years? | This is Money
> 
> My take-away is that apart from 2000-2007 when property went crazy, *equities have outperformed it*. Also note, anybody with a mortgage would have to subtract what interest they paid, and also acquisition and disposal costs such as arrangement fees, conveyancing, estate agents, etc.
> 
> I'm actually a bit surprised. I thought it would have been more in favour of property.


A friend of mine got stung when he went into equities, namely stocks and shares and put his money into 2 promising
companies with plenty of good news flow and promising assets.
Suffice to say both companies stung their investors by 'doing the dirty on them' by issuing millions of more shares in
a serious of cash calls on investors. That and those dreaded 'rights issue' shenanigans, watered down the value
of his original share holding like crazy.


----------



## baldilocks

Williams2 said:


> A friend of mine got stung when he went into equities, namely stocks and shares and put his money into 2 promising
> companies with plenty of good news flow and promising assets.
> Suffice to say both companies stung their investors by 'doing the dirty on them' by issuing millions of more shares in
> a serious of cash calls on investors. That and those dreaded 'rights issue' shenanigans, watered down the value
> of his original share holding like crazy.


You should know by now that there is no honour among thieves. Take the example of Philip Green...


----------



## Isobella

Williams2 said:


> A friend of mine got stung when he went into equities, namely stocks and shares and put his money into 2 promising
> companies with plenty of good news flow and promising assets.
> Suffice to say both companies stung their investors by 'doing the dirty on them' by issuing millions of more shares in
> a serious of cash calls on investors. That and those dreaded 'rights issue' shenanigans, watered down the value
> of his original share holding like crazy.


Not good to keep all your eggs is in one basket, why not invest in equities and property. I know someone who lost a bit on equities too. Glancing at that article the last chart 2000 to 2014 shows property to be the winner.


----------



## Horlics

Isobella said:


> Not good to keep all your eggs is in one basket, why not invest in equities and property. I know someone who lost a bit on equities too. Glancing at that article the last chart 2000 to 2014 shows property to be the winner.


That time period included the 33% fall in equities in the financial crash. If you look at 2014 - now equities have hammered property returns. You're right though, property did outperform but for most people there are ownership costs that don't come with stocks and shares. Overall, In agree with that you said earlier, a mix is obviously best.

Just to show how straightforward it isn't, here are two things written in Sept 2015:

"Over 10 years, UK shares are again out-performing UK property. Interestingly, UK property has performed worse than UK inflation over this period, which means that you would have lost money in real terms had you invested in property on this date. An investment of £100,000 in UK shares would now be worth £180550, which is £59,488 or 49% more than in UK property."

And.....

"Over 5 years, UK shares have performed much better than property investment. An investment of £100,000 in UK shares would now be worth £153,833, which is £33,624 or 30% more than in UK property."

Source: https://www.woodruff-fp.co.uk/property-vs-investment-portfolios/

Hence why cherry picking a few years from history can always give you the answer you want.


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## baldilocks

It is all dependent upon one's personal situation. For us, buying our house outright, although we have lost on the investment, we have no rent to pay and our IBI is only 151€ p.a., therefore avoiding paying something like 500-600 per month rent over the almost 10 years we have been here, especially when this stupid brexit business has reduced my pension income, we are quids in. The bonus is we still have a house that is worth somewhere in the region of 40-50k€


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## mrypg9

All I know is that if we had had more money and I weren't so risk adverse and had invested megabucks in those two well-performing parts of our overall portfolio I would be writing this from a super yacht on my way to the Caribbean, pissed on Bollinger.

But we haven't, I'm not so we didn't. Other parts of our portfolio either didn't perform that well or made nothing for us. So I'm posting this shivering in our study drinking a glass of cut price Alhambra Especial Rojo from Lidl.

Like Isobella sad, spread your investments.

And like I said, you need money to make money.


----------



## Williams2

mrypg9 said:


> All I know is that if we had had more money and I weren't so risk adverse and had invested megabucks in those two well-performing parts of our overall portfolio I would be writing this from a super yacht on my way to the Caribbean, pissed on Bollinger.
> 
> But we haven't, I'm not so we didn't. Other parts of our portfolio either didn't perform that well or made nothing for us. So I'm posting this shivering in our study drinking a glass of cut price Alhambra Especial Rojo from Lidl.
> 
> Like Isobella sad, spread your investments.
> 
> And like I said, you need money to make money.


Or you could have bought Bitcoins ( the currency of choice for Malware hackers ) a year ago and be cashing in a
fortune today.


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## baldilocks

Williams2 said:


> Or you could have bought Bitcoins ( the currency of choice for Malware hackers ) a year ago and be cashing in a
> fortune today.


or, alternatively, you could be mourning what might have been.


----------



## Williams2

baldilocks said:


> or, alternatively, you could be mourning what might have been.


True which is why I always say - make someone happy - invest in British Heritage Railways, where labour costs are low 
( these volunteers do it for free, just to get up close to a steam engine ) and where these same volunteers
also revel in getting their hands dirty, what with all the annual maintenance that comes along with it and everything.

Of course British Steam train enthusiasts are renowned throughout the world where for them, the Beeching cuts 
along with the demise of steam, was far worst than Brexit.


----------



## Juan C

We seem to have moved on somewhat from what the OP asked i.e. "*Is Spanish property a good investment? "*

I read that as an investment not as a holiday or permanent home

Just, "Will I make money if I buy a property, on a big mortgage?"



My reply on 28the January, which I see no reason to amend was:-

_Trent You titled this thread "Is Spanish property a good investment?"

I would have said, probably not.

Then you said, 80% Mortgage.

So now I would say NO WAY FORGET IT, if you really mean "Is Spanish property a good investment?" _


----------



## baldilocks

Juan C said:


> We seem to have moved one from "*Is Spanish property a good investment? "*
> 
> I read that as an investment not as a holiday or permanent home
> 
> Just will I make money of I buy a property, on a big mortgage,
> 
> 
> 
> My reply on 28the January, which I see no reason to amend was:-
> 
> _Trent You titled this thread "Is Spanish property a good investment?"
> 
> I would have said, probably not.
> 
> Then you said, 80% Mortgage.
> 
> So now I would say NO WAY FORGET IT, if you really mean "Is Spanish property a good investment?" _


I read it as "to live in" - i.e. was it a good investment to buy your own house rather than rent one. To which my answer would be "in the long term - Yes" but if you want to buy and then sell on - the answer is No


----------



## Isobella

baldilocks said:


> I read it as "to live in" - i.e. was it a good investment to buy your own house rather than rent one. To which my answer would be "in the long term - Yes" but if you want to buy and then sell on - the answer is No


Agree but I read it the same as Juan with the first post. The question was reworded further down the page.


----------



## trentfrog

To clarify my question, it was regarding buying a property with a big 70-80% mortgage, live in it and sell in 15 years because we probably won’t retire in Spain VS renting for the next 15 years.


----------



## baldilocks

trentfrog said:


> To clarify my question, it was regarding buying a property with a big 70-80% mortgage, live in it and sell in 15 years because we probably won’t retire in Spain VS renting for the next 15 years.


Work it out. Assume there will be no increase in the value of the property (this will offset the decreasing worth of whatever currency you calculate in) 

If you buy a 122k house and take out a 100k mortgage on a fixed rate, you will pay 510 per month on a 20 year mortgage (Yes I know you said 15 years but easily obtainable figures are based on 20 years.) So over the 20 years you will pay 510 per month = 122,400 for your property but it will be worth 120k (we are assuming for convenience no increase in value). It has therefore cost you 22.4k to live there. Over the same period if you rented, you would still pay about 500 per month and have still paid 122k (to live there in rent, assuming it doesn't go up) versus 22k if you bought and if you rented, you would not have 122k capital in a property.

OK it is a simplistic view but it should answer your question.


----------



## Lynn R

baldilocks said:


> Work it out. Assume there will be no increase in the value of the property (this will offset the decreasing worth of whatever currency you calculate in)
> 
> If you buy a 122k house and take out a 100k mortgage on a fixed rate, you will pay 510 per month on a 20 year mortgage (Yes I know you said 15 years but easily obtainable figures are based on 20 years.) So over the 20 years you will pay 510 per month = 122,400 for your property but it will be worth 120k (we are assuming for convenience no increase in value). It has therefore cost you 22.4k to live there. Over the same period if you rented, you would still pay about 500 per month and have still paid 122k (to live there in rent, assuming it doesn't go up) versus 22k if you bought and if you rented, you would not have 122k capital in a property.
> 
> OK it is a simplistic view but it should answer your question.


You do need to add in at least 10% for buying costs, though (or more, in some regions it could be 12/13%) and possibly about 10% in selling costs (say 5% agent's commission, which is pretty common, and plus valia).


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> You do need to add in at least 10% for buying costs, though (or more, in some regions it could be 12/13%) and possibly about 10% in selling costs (say 5% agent's commission, which is pretty common, and plus valia).


Yes, I was going to say the same. The costs need to be known


----------



## Megsmum

trentfrog said:


> To clarify my question, it was regarding buying a property with a big 70-80% mortgage, live in it and sell in 15 years because we probably won’t retire in Spain VS renting for the next 15 years.


What Baldy et al said and....... is your financial situation set fair for the next 15 years, can you adjust to rate increases, can you afford to go to negative equity should another recession hit. 

If your not retiring here, are you keeping bolt hole...... therefore, when you sell here there’s Capital gains tax to think of

Really the answer is with you and your situation 

Good luck


----------



## Overandout

A huge unknown is also the FX rate. The OP is Canadian and does not plan to retire in Spain, but his capital (if any) will be in €.

No-one knows what will happen the Canadian$ / € exchange rate in 15 years and this is probably a bigger risk variable than the property market fluctuations.

I doubt a bank would even hedge your investment for that long.


----------



## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Work it out. Assume there will be no increase in the value of the property (this will offset the decreasing worth of whatever currency you calculate in)
> 
> If you buy a 122k house and take out a 100k mortgage on a fixed rate, you will pay 510 per month on a 20 year mortgage (Yes I know you said 15 years but easily obtainable figures are based on 20 years.) So over the 20 years you will pay 510 per month = 122,400 for your property but it will be worth 120k (we are assuming for convenience no increase in value). It has therefore cost you 22.4k to live there. Over the same period if you rented, you would still pay about 500 per month and have still paid 122k (to live there in rent, assuming it doesn't go up) versus 22k if you bought and if you rented, you would not have 122k capital in a property.
> 
> OK it is a simplistic view but it should answer your question.


That seems far too simplistic. For one thing, what percentage is the fixed rate?
As others have pointed out property values fluctuate. Then there are the costs involved in selling and of course the CGT when you do sell. Maintenance and repairs need factoring in (as I write this our landlord is out in the freezing cold fixing and painting our two sets of double gates and our very long 2m high garden wall which stretches around two large corner plots)..
Some properties just don't sell easily. You could wait months, years even before you get a buyer willing to pay the price you need.

Rents vary depending on location and your relationship with your landlord. We started renting this property for €2300 a month ten years ago. Now we pay €1000 including IBI for a house in an area where houses sell starting at €500000.plus. 
Sensible landlords will drop rents to keep long term reliable tenants who pay rent and look after their property. No way could we afford to buy a property like this but we enjoy living in it. We did the same when we lived in Prague, rented a big house in a pleasant village just outside of the city. 

And don't forget Inheritance Tax should one of you die.


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## Horlics

15 years.... rent.

Buying = 

purchase tax
mortgage arrangement fees
legal fees (including property arrangements but also a will - as you'll now have assets in Spain, wise to have one)
On-going legal fees, such as non-resident tax return, etc.
property maintenance (either as a communal fee or your own expenditure on your own property)
wear and tear on fittings and equipment (at least one new boiler and aircon system, kitchen, bathrooms, etc)
mortgage rearrangement fees when fixed term expires (if that's what you go for, or risk fluctuations)
and... mortgage interest over the period

I'm assuming you'll get the capital outlay back when you sell...

but add another 7% in selling costs

All of the above will exceed your rental.


----------



## baldilocks

To the OP:

What you are seeing are responses from the two different camps - the pro-rent and the pro-buy and each will pick holes in the other camps point of view.

So, take your pick.


----------



## Horlics

baldilocks said:


> To the OP:
> 
> What you are seeing are responses from the two different camps - the pro-rent and the pro-buy and each will pick holes in the other camps point of view.
> 
> So, take your pick.


Actually Baldi,

Although I am saying rent, I am pro-buy. I bought. I am thinking of buying another place as an investment.

But it's down to circumstances. I don't want to sell after 15 years. If I buy another I will be doing it with spare cash that's sloshing around, not with a mortgage.

I'm most definitely pro-buy but my circumstances are very different from the Ops. In his position, I wouldn't buy.


----------



## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> To the OP:
> 
> What you are seeing are responses from the two different camps - the pro-rent and the pro-buy and each will pick holes in the other camps point of view.
> 
> So, take your pick.


It's not a simple case of 'picking holes', pros and cons, though....
As some posters have said, it's about what fits your situation, your personal circumstances and expectations.
Once I happily owned property.
Now I happily rent.
Cicumstances...


----------



## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> It's not a simple case of 'picking holes', pros and cons, though....
> As some posters have said, it's about what fits your situation, your personal circumstances and expectations.
> Once I happily owned property.
> Now I happily rent.
> Cicumstances...


I am trying to put myself in the OP's shoes. As for the interest rate - it is irrelevant since it is a fixed rate - I just took a look at what is currently on offer and five banks are offering a 20 year fixed rate mortgage at €500 for 100k and I based the calculation on that. It may well be that the OP can get a better deal or want a different amount, at least with that sort a deal the OP can pre-plan whereas with renting, it can go up or can go down. You go your way, I go mine...


----------



## Isobella

baldilocks said:


> I am trying to put myself in the OP's shoes. As for the interest rate - it is irrelevant since it is a fixed rate - I just took a look at what is currently on offer and five banks are offering a 20 year fixed rate mortgage at €500 for 100k and I based the calculation on that. It may well be that the OP can get a better deal or want a different amount, at least with that sort a deal the OP can pre-plan whereas with renting, it can go up or can go down. You go your way, I go mine...


Your assumptions are fairly reasonable especially since you did not facture in any increase in the property value. I do think 15 to 20 years is a long time. The jobs market is volatile, different if paying cash. The market is boom and bust, particularly in Spain so it is a matter of buying and selling at the right time. Being happy and content in your home has to be costed too.


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## Horlics

baldilocks said:


> I am trying to put myself in the OP's shoes. As for the interest rate - it is irrelevant since it is a fixed rate - I just took a look at what is currently on offer and five banks are offering a 20 year fixed rate mortgage at €500 for 100k and I based the calculation on that. It may well be that the OP can get a better deal or want a different amount, at least with that sort a deal the OP can pre-plan whereas with renting, it can go up or can go down. You go your way, I go mine...


When is a fixed rate mortgage not a fixed rate mortgage?

When it's fixed to the base rate.

That said, if you know a bank which offers a true fixed rate for 20 years, then that's news to me! You live and learn.


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## baldilocks

Horlics said:


> When is a fixed rate mortgage not a fixed rate mortgage?
> 
> When it's fixed to the base rate.
> 
> That said, if you know a bank which offers a true fixed rate for 20 years, then that's news to me! You live and learn.


I got my info from this site:

TOP FIVE FIXED-RATE SPANISH MORTGAGES

Its accuracy I can't vouch for since I have had nothing to do with mortgages since paying off our one in the UK before coming to Spain. I would add that the advantage of having a mortgage on a property with spare equity does enable one to obtain cheap loan facilities if one needs them.


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## Horlics

Well who knew. Euribor is negative and they do indeed seem to offer actual fixed rates.

There are strings, but not too many.

I'm changing. I'd buy.

But, usual rules apply. Worst property in best area, not best property in worst area. And above all, somewhere nice. Close to amenities where all development is complete. Not something that leaves you stranded up a hill watching golfing types in their ridiculous trousers. Those places crash first and crash hardest.


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## Megsmum

Horlics said:


> Well who knew.


Those were my exact words


----------



## lee25767

The Skipper said:


> My house has been informally valued at just over half what I paid for it and spent on it over the last yen years but I have no regrets. It is the house of my dreams and I am not looking to sell. I sold my UK house at the top of the market and got GBP 25,000 more than I ever expected so I can´t grumble too much. All the evidence I am seeing and hearing at the moment suggests that the market is at last moving again. Two properties near to me that have been on the market for years have recently sold and an estate agent friend has told me that he is now as busy as he was before the crash in 2008. Another friend who is a manager with a large Spanish construction company tells me that they are busy again for the first time in years, especially picking up on projects that were abandoned after the crash (infrastructure for new urbanizations in particular). Also, I read in the Spanish press a few weeks ago that building companies are having trouble finding enough skilled bricklayers and are once again looking to Romania and Poland for workers as they did in the boom years. My advice would be to buy now before prices start to soar, as they surely will, once the recovery gains momentum.



Oooo what construction firm does your friend work for? I'm a bricklayer who would love to work over there as I have a house in Oliva!


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## mrypg9

Could someone tell me the price of a quiet, worry and stress-free life?

I don't know what the last thirteen years of renting has cost me in money terms but those years have been the best of my life and it's not because I'm no longer working as I am, it's because I don't have to think about interest rates, property values, stuff like that.

There's price and there's value and what is 'value' for one person may not be so for another.


----------



## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> Could someone tell me the price of a quiet, worry and stress-free life?
> 
> I don't know what the last thirteen years of renting has cost me in money terms but those years have been the best of my life and it's not because I'm no longer working as I am, it's because I don't have to think about interest rates, property values, stuff like that.
> 
> There's price and there's value and what is 'value' for one person may not be so for another.


In our case it was 85,000€ back in 2007, then came the crash so would be about half that now. For the first time in ours lives, we have no mortgage nor rent to pay and we have our own home laid out and furnished just the way we want it. We have a car (also fully paid for) that suits our needs and is capable of taking a wheelchair and/or scooter, is economical to run. Where we live has a nice outlook and is in a village where there are very nice people. 

We are content, happy and stress- free.


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## Pesky Wesky

lee25767 said:


> Oooo what construction firm does your friend work for? I'm a bricklayer who would love to work over there as I have a house in Oliva!


I wouldn't get excited about it. Spain is just getting on the construction / tourism roundabout yet again. Construction will pick up pace, tourism is already orgasming over record figures, but big bursts of super economies are not stable. We are still NOT over the 2008 crisis - was talking about it to a Spaniard this very morning. (Yes, there are more jobs, but the conditions???) so I fully expect another bubble to burst and more tragedy and hardship to hit Spain in the next 10 years


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## Horlics

They're chucking up new blocks in Javea right now, some by a UK construction company, right next to 10 year old blocks that still haven't sold out. But, all the new ones are going. Baffling.


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## xabiaxica

Horlics said:


> They're chucking up new blocks in Javea right now, some by a UK construction company, right next to 10 year old blocks that still haven't sold out. But, all the new ones are going. Baffling.


Permission was given for the building of these quite some years ago. The current administration (of the past 7 years) hasn't granted permission for any new developments (other than single dwelling) & has vowed not to do so as long as unsold empty properties exist.


I suspect there's some kind of time limit on permission & that's why they are being built now.


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## Leper

I didn't read all the replies in this thread. We bought 12 years ago at the height of the "boom" and saw the value (price) of our property plummet by 30%. OK, we made up some of the loss through rentals, but bottom line opinion:- Ours was not a good investment. A lot of work, worry and crap what we could have done without.

There has been some recovery in the price of property, but we will never get back what we paid. But, we still soldier on . . .


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## angkag

An interesting event where I live (Sotogrande). Most houses for sale around the place remain unsold after three years. There is the occasional sale, but invariably you see gradual price declines over time before the house is either taken off the market or sells. 

There are 32 houses in my urb., and about 8 have been for sale over the last three years, with none selling.

Against this background, the house next door just sold for full price. What I find odd is that the house I am in (identical to the one next door), is also up for sale at 30,000 cheaper than the one next door, yet the people who bought the house next door didn't even look at it. Surely they would have at least looked at it and maybe even played off with both owners to see who would take the lower price. I'm sure the owner of my house would have gone up to another 50,000 lower if pressed.

This single sale sent off a rallying cry of 'the market is recovering !' among the property agents, and one of the houses in the urb immediately raised its price by 30,000 (no matter that it has gone unsold at the lower price for the three years I've been here). Meantime my landlord has convinced himself a sale is more likely if the house is unoccupied, so I've been asked to leave in August (which is fine as was considering a move anyway). 

All this because of ONE buyer showing up. Still very odd that they only looked at the one house out of the 8 for sale, many of the other 8 cheaper, and proceeded at full asking price. Might even be described as a little fishy !


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## baldilocks

Another problem if you decide to rent is the owner deciding to sell after you have set yourself up nicely got in with the neighbours, etc. etc. then you have got to move!

Buy Buy Buy!!!!


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Another problem if you decide to rent is the owner deciding to sell after you have set yourself up nicely got in with the neighbours, etc. etc. then you have got to move!
> 
> Buy Buy Buy!!!!


And another problem is when you buy and the neighbour from hell moves next door.
Or the owner decides to use it for holiday rentals and you are kept awake until the early hours by noisy guests from May to. September.
Or the house/piso next door is used as a brothel. Not all brothels cause disturbance, though.
Or a hundred other horrible possibilities.
No, Baldy, it's not that black and white, as some posters have been trying to point out.
I estimate that in the last twelve years I've paid over € 150 k in rent.
In the area where I enjoy living and wish to continue living I would be unable to buy a property I want to spend the rest of my days in for that money. A two bed piso would cost at least €250 k to buy. 
I prefer to rent what I couldn't afford to buy.
My money. My choice.


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## mrypg9

This obsession with property ownership used to be a uniquely British thing. French, Germans, Italians, Eastern Europeans were happy to rent. Easy low interest mortgages tempted many people to take on commitments they couldn't afford or wished to release themselves from, as we saw with the drop in property prices in the bad years 2006 onwards when many Brits had to head back home and were stuck with properties with reduced sale prices.
In some ways, tying money into single property purchase ties up money that could be invested in other areas of the economy via the financial markets, thus benefiting society as a whole.
Renting could be made more attractive if the rental market were better regulated in the interest of f both tenant and landlord


----------



## mrypg9

We often get posts asking where would be the best place in Spain to come and live. We reply that it depends entirely on taste, financial status, age, how physically fit you are, will Spain be your permanent home...and so on.
To sum up, it depends uniquely on personal circumstances.
No way would I reply with a suggestion without knowing these important facts.
(In fact I would hesitate to make any suggestion as the 'right' place is something you yourself have to find. Nobody can find it for you).
Ditto with how you decide on renting/buying. 
Forty years ago my Uncle retired and he and my Aunt sold their house in Canada, a home they'd lived in since their marriage. They rented an apartment down the street from where they'd lived, spent some of the money on a European trip and banked the rest. Their two daughters, my cousins, were adults with families of their own and good secure jobs.
When OH and I took early retirement we sold all property and rented. We invested our cash and can live comfortably with no worries of any kind on the proceeds. Only one son to think abput, he owns a property in Spain and is comfortably off himself.
We lived in a detached period cottage in the UK with garden as we have always had dogs. When we left the UK wanted a largish house and realised we couldn't afford the kind of house we wanted without depleting our savings. So having considered all factors we decided the most sensible option was to sell our properties and rent.
I'm repeating all this because it still hasn't dawned on some people that buying/renting is a choice based on personal circumstances and values. 
Most of the posters who say buying is the best way seem to be looking at the situation solely from a cash point of view but living isn't entirely based on narrow arithmetical calculations. I can cook a decent meal at home for ten euros but now and then I like to dine out and may spend up to a hundred euros. 
Some people who come to live n Spain choose to live on the Costas, in big holiday resorts. Others prefer the peace of small town or village life away from the crowds. Some like to be the only guiri in the village.
Horses for courses.
Same with rent/buy. I know what works for me and what might work for others in my situation which cannot be unique. 
Anyone contemplating whether to rent or buy should ignore both those who see only one 'best' option, whether it's renting or buying.
Your life, your choice. Only you know best.


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## Rabbitcat

It's a very difficult one this as just like others have highlighted it's very much down to personal circumstances 

However what I would suggest is that unless you are buying in one of the main cities for example where there are many areas of chronic lack of properties- buying property in Spain is not a solid financial investment in the same way it would be in Ireland/UK


----------



## Williams2

*House prices will always go up and never down - here's a warning from History !!*

For those home owners who bought their home or second home ( when house prices were high almost
upto 2017 levels ) in the late 1980's & the years leading upto the UK being forced to leave the ERM,
European Exchange Rate mechanism in 1992.
Here's a painful lesson from history, from those unlucky enough to be caught in the negative equity trap 
in the early 1990's !!

The British government were engaged in joining the ERM and bringing the pound into alignment with the
German DM from 1988 to 1990, where BOE interest rates were already moving upto 10 per cent to 
accommodate this alignment. 
On 8th October 1990, Britain entered the pound into the ERM mechanism at DM 2.95 to the pound.
Hence if the exchange rate ever neared the bottom of its permitted range, DM 2.773, the government
would be obliged to intervene.
At the time inflation was running at 3 times that of Germany's inflation, at 15 per cent and with 
British interest rates already hovering around 10 per cent; these BOE rates would be regularly reviewed
and set by the Chancellor - not the BOE as it is today.
Also at the time the US dollar was depreciating and with the value of British exports
being measured in US dollars - Britain was being hurt by rising inflation and double deficits. 
George Soros and other currency traders reckoned the value of the pound, against the DM in the
ERM was set too high and a run on the pound ensued with BOE interest rates being adjusted almost
every month and when it got really bad, every week and reaching a high of 15 per cent to keep
the British pound within the agreed £ to DM range with the German Deutschemark.

Looking back on those times, you can almost hear the cries from people working in the City of 
_'does anyone want to buy my house_' with many people seeing their, interest only mortgages 
( the most popular form of mortgage at the time ) with monthly repayments spiralling upwards, 
almost out of control - until the Prime Minister, John Major decided to throw in the towel,
when on the evening of 16th September 1992, the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
Norman Lamont announced that Britain will leave the ERM and the exchange rate will return
to it's normal level of 12 per cent; although such was the relief of pressure on the pound,
that the BOE interest rate went down to 10 oer cent, the very next day.

Of course during the years from 1988 to 1992 - House Prices were dropping like a stone due
to the sheer unaffordability of lenders mortgages, with their interest rates being a good
2 ( or more ) percent above the current BOE rates.
Those that bought their homes in the 5 to 8 years leading upto the events surrounding the UK's
alignment to the ERM; found the value of their homes depreciate enormously, with many ending
up with negative equity - if for any reason they had to sell up and move house, in order
to move elsewhere due to life changes, a change in careers, etc.

Suffice to say, it took many years for British house prices to recover and for confidence to
return to the housing market and although it could be said that those who bought their homes 
in the UK at the end of the 1990's; when house prices started to pick up again,
would be seeing all of the gains and none of the losses from the gradual recovery of
house prices from these very depressed levels.
There were at the same time many more home owners, who bought from the previous highs upto 
the years leading to 1988 and 1992, who would have to wait many more years yet to
see the value of their homes return to the same level it cost them when they bought their
first homes.


----------



## The Skipper

Williams2 said:


> *House prices will always go up and never down - here's a warning from History !!*
> 
> For those home owners who bought their home or second home ( when house prices were high almost
> upto 2017 levels ) in the late 1980's & the years leading upto the UK being forced to leave the ERM,
> European Exchange Rate mechanism in 1992.
> Here's a painful lesson from history, from those unlucky enough to be caught in the negative equity trap
> in the early 1990's !!
> 
> The British government were engaged in joining the ERM and bringing the pound into alignment with the
> German DM from 1988 to 1990, where BOE interest rates were already moving upto 10 per cent to
> accommodate this alignment.
> On 8th October 1990, Britain entered the pound into the ERM mechanism at DM 2.95 to the pound.
> Hence if the exchange rate ever neared the bottom of its permitted range, DM 2.773, the government
> would be obliged to intervene.
> At the time inflation was running at 3 times that of Germany's inflation, at 15 per cent and with
> British interest rates already hovering around 10 per cent; these BOE rates would be regularly reviewed
> and set by the Chancellor - not the BOE as it is today.
> Also at the time the US dollar was depreciating and with the value of British exports
> being measured in US dollars - Britain was being hurt by rising inflation and double deficits.
> George Soros and other currency traders reckoned the value of the pound, against the DM in the
> ERM was set too high and a run on the pound ensued with BOE interest rates being adjusted almost
> every month and when it got really bad, every week and reaching a high of 15 per cent to keep
> the British pound within the agreed £ to DM range with the German Deutschemark.
> 
> Looking back on those times, you can almost hear the cries from people working in the City of
> _'does anyone want to buy my house_' with many people seeing their, interest only mortgages
> ( the most popular form of mortgage at the time ) with monthly repayments spiralling upwards,
> almost out of control - until the Prime Minister, John Major decided to throw in the towel,
> when on the evening of 16th September 1992, the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
> Norman Lamont announced that Britain will leave the ERM and the exchange rate will return
> to it's normal level of 12 per cent; although such was the relief of pressure on the pound,
> that the BOE interest rate went down to 10 oer cent, the very next day.
> 
> Of course during the years from 1988 to 1992 - House Prices were dropping like a stone due
> to the sheer unaffordability of lenders mortgages, with their interest rates being a good
> 2 ( or more ) percent above the current BOE rates.
> Those that bought their homes in the 5 to 8 years leading upto the events surrounding the UK's
> alignment to the ERM; found the value of their homes depreciate enormously, with many ending
> up with negative equity - if for any reason they had to sell up and move house, in order
> to move elsewhere due to life changes, a change in careers, etc.
> 
> Suffice to say, it took many years for British house prices to recover and for confidence to
> return to the housing market and although it could be said that those who bought their homes
> in the UK at the end of the 1990's; when house prices started to pick up again,
> would be seeing all of the gains and none of the losses from the gradual recovery of
> house prices from these very depressed levels.
> There were at the same time many more home owners, who bought from the previous highs upto
> the years leading to 1988 and 1992, who would have to wait many more years yet to
> see the value of their homes return to the same level it cost them when they bought their
> first homes.


I remember it well! By the time the UK crashed out of the ERM my salary did not cover my mortgage and essential living costs and my overdraft was getting bigger each month. Selling up was not an option because we were in negative equity. All turned out well in the end though, thanks to an understanding bank manager, and we sold the house in 2007 for GBP 300,000 more than we paid for it.


----------



## Williams2

The Skipper said:


> I remember it well! By the time the UK crashed out of the ERM my salary did not cover my mortgage and essential living costs and my overdraft was getting bigger each month. Selling up was not an option because we were in negative equity. All turned out well in the end though, thanks to an understanding bank manager, and we sold the house in 2007 for GBP 300,000 more than we paid for it.



Glad to hear that you came out of this relatively unscathed although I'm sure, a bitter experience for you 
at the time.
Others no doubt were less fortunate and might even have lost everything depending on their circumstances.


----------



## The Skipper

Williams2 said:


> Glad to hear that you came out of this relatively unscathed although I'm sure, a bitter experience for you
> at the time.
> Others no doubt were less fortunate and might even have lost everything depending on their circumstances.


We were very fortunate and, yes, many others did not manage to ride the storm. A businessman I knew well committed suicide the day before the UK quit the ERM. If I remember correctly the Chancellor raised interest rates from 15% to 17% but the next day quit the ERM and the rates started to fall again ... but too late for my friend.


----------



## Isobella

Dublin has turned out to be a good investment. Prices have increased 90% over 5 years (The Times). Not good for young buyers though.


----------



## baldilocks

Isobella said:


> *Dublin* has turned out to be a good investment. Prices have increased 90% over 5 years (The Times). Not good for young buyers though.


*Relevance?*


----------



## Isobella

baldilocks said:


> *Relevance?*


I can read without highlighting thanks

As relevant as posts about Major, ERM etc. Some Irish on here. What's up, news too good


----------



## Leper

Just to add (and nothing to do with Spanish property) rental prices in Ireland or particularly Dublin rental prices are now in excess of what they were during the height of the boom. And somebody pointed out, not good for people trying to get on the property ladder for the first time.


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## trentfrog

I just wanted to say thank you to the many people who replied to my question. You have given me lots to think about.


----------



## Wendywoo1

Hi! I am looking to a buy property in Spain in either Estepona or Frigiliana (more likely) and am being told by estate agents that the market is now a sellers market. Judging by the posts that I am reading this appears not to be the case and is just “estate agent speak”? In Frigiliana in particular I’m almost being made to feel like I would be lucky to be able to buy a property and that making an offer would be pointless. I think I would prefer to speak to vendors direct as I also read somewhere that estate agents add hefty commissions onto what the vendor actually wants for the property, so if you try and negotiate you are in effect negotiating with the agent on his fees. So my question is, how can I speak to vendors directly? Or find a property that I am looking for without using an agent?


----------



## Lynn R

Wendywoo1 said:


> Hi! I am looking to a buy property in Spain in either Estepona or Frigiliana (more likely) and am being told by estate agents that the market is now a sellers market. Judging by the posts that I am reading this appears not to be the case and is just “estate agent speak”? In Frigiliana in particular I’m almost being made to feel like I would be lucky to be able to buy a property and that making an offer would be pointless. I think I would prefer to speak to vendors direct as I also read somewhere that estate agents add hefty commissions onto what the vendor actually wants for the property, so if you try and negotiate you are in effect negotiating with the agent on his fees. So my question is, how can I speak to vendors directly? Or find a property that I am looking for without using an agent?


There are some Frigiliana properties advertised for sale by the vendors on sites such as

https://www.idealista.com/venta-viviendas/malaga/costa-del-sol-oriental-axarquia/frigiliana/


Look for the ones which say "particular" rather than "profesional" in the Contact Details. They may not be English speaking, though.

However, dealing with vendors directly is not necessarily easy, in my experience. I tried to buy a property via a private sale last year, only for the vendor to pull out of the deal the day before I was to sign the contract and pay the deposit. She took exception to the fact that I wanted the contract drawn up by my lawyer rather than letting her do it herself!


----------



## Wendywoo1

Thank you Lynn I will have a look there. ?


----------



## Isobella

Lynn R said:


> There are some Frigiliana properties advertised for sale by the vendors on sites such as
> 
> https://www.idealista.com/venta-viviendas/malaga/costa-del-sol-oriental-axarquia/frigiliana/
> 
> 
> Look for the ones which say "particular" rather than "profesional" in the Contact Details. They may not be English speaking, though.
> 
> However, dealing with vendors directly is not necessarily easy, in my experience. I tried to buy a property via a private sale last year, only for the vendor to pull out of the deal the day before I was to sign the contract and pay the deposit. She took exception to the fact that I wanted the contract drawn up by my lawyer rather than letting her do it herself!


We had an experience similar. Was through an Agent but the vendors, two sisters from Madrid had a strange logic and thought if we were prepared to offer the asking price then the house was worth more and asked for another €10,000 even though they had no other buyers interested.


----------



## Wendywoo1

So I guess the moral of the story is you can have problems dealing direct or via an agent. I wonder if renting is easier?


----------



## Lynn R

Isobella said:


> We had an experience similar. Was through an Agent but the vendors, two sisters from Madrid had a strange logic and thought if we were prepared to offer the asking price then the house was worth more and asked for another €10,000 even though they had no other buyers interested.


My lawyer thought the vendor must have had a better offer and was just using the contract thing as an excuse. She was absolutely gobsmacked by the whole thing and said she'd never experienced anything like it in over 20 years of practising - just my luck! I was a cash buyer and had agreed to pay the asking price, the property had been for sale since 2014 and it still is, so seems she didn't actually have a better offer. It really put me off getting involved in another private sale so I bought through an agent once I'd dusted myself off.

As to WendyWoo asking if it really is a sellers' market at the moment, I don't really know enough about the market in either Frigiliana or Estepona to say. However, Frigiliana is, as the agents say, a "much sought after location" and there doesn't appear to be a great deal of property on the market, so the number of available properties in any particular price bracket will be limited. I would have thought that would make vendors more confident about not accepting lower offers.


----------



## Lynn R

Wendywoo1 said:


> So I guess the moral of the story is you can have problems dealing direct or via an agent. I wonder if renting is easier?


Don't know about Estepona, but you may struggle to find a property for long term rental in Frigiliana as it's a popular place for holiday rentals which are much more lucrative for owners, and it's not all that big a place so the property market isn't huge. We know a young couple who run a restaurant in Nerja who have been looking for somewhere else to rent for well over a year now but can't find anywhere.

There are just 11 properties in or near Frigiliana advertised on enalquiler.com, for example.

https://www.enalquiler.com/search?provincia=31&poblacion=21260##property-4640413


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## baldilocks

The house two doors from me was sold last year for 27k. This year after a creation of a "garden" (astroturf and a few pot plants) plus a few a/c units and a pool (one of those on the surface blue plastic puddles, it is on the market for 79k. Will they get that much? who knows?
Andalucia Property - Property For Sale Spain

If they get that much, then I reckon mine must be worth 120k+ since it is twice the size and has much more but no paddling pool.


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## Wendywoo1

It will be very interesting to hear if they do achieve their asking price...good luck to them!


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## Horlics

Wendywoo1 said:


> So my question is, how can I speak to vendors directly? Or find a property that I am looking for without using an agent?


I really don't know what would happen if a vendor who has put their property with an agent then does a direct deal with somebody who presumably saw the board and knocked on the door. I'd imagine that would be the way to contact a vendor direct, unless they are also advertising on sites themselves, like the link somebody here provided.

Personally, I would rather work with an agent. Firstly, they could well have delivered some reality to an over-hopeful vendor when setting the price. Secondly, when I bought my place I thought it was advertised at about the right price so I made the approach on that basis. I've no idea how much passed from the vendor to the agent.

Anyway... onto a possibly helpful suggestion in answer to the question...

One thing you could do is see if there is a Facebook group for the area that you are thinking of buying in. There is a very active and heavily subscribed one for the place I live in, and I know private sales and rentals are often advertised on there.


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## Wendywoo1

Ahh...Facebook group...excellent idea. Thanks Horlicks I will give that a try.


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## cckcb1771

Yes, Spanish property is a good investment option. Ibiza is not a big city like Madrid or London, whose market potential extends to a radius of up to 80 kilometers from the city center, but an island where many people want to own a second home, where you will find many real estate buyers around the world. The potential buyers in Ibiza are not looking for a villa in which they want to live all year round, rather a second or third residence. As a result, Ibiza's needs are secondary and place more emphasis on the quality of life that their luxury home can offer.


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## jakethepeg

A Fascinating thread, so many different, but equally valid opinions.
My late grandmother passed on one of her life rules to me


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## jakethepeg

And now I am going to tell you what it is ( sorry, pressed the wrong button)

"If it appreciates, buy it, if it depreciates, rent it"

But that of course should factor in the costs of the original purchase and the eventual selling.
I have bought and sold property successfully on 3 continents(sounds like the intro to a place in the sun!) I have also bought and sold unsuccessfully. I am at present house hunting in the marina Alta region for a full time home. I intend to let it out for July/August, whilst I toddle off in my motorhome visiting friends and relatives. This income will hopefully cover my annual costs, but will be regarded as a bonus and not a necessity. But I am buying a home, not a financial investment, the return on my investment will be quality of life, security and the chance to make it just as I want it.


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## Catalunya22

I agree with most of what has been said.
The buying and selling costs mean your property has to go up in value substantially just to get out at break-even.
I bought a flat 2 years ago....in a village up in the hills outside Barcelona.
I probably paid over the odds for it but we loved it so much. I didn´t buy to make a profit, as I am at an age where that´s not important to me. I fully intend to die here as it´s a forever home.
I made my money on property in London over the years.


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## Isobella

Horlics said:


> I really don't know what would happen if a vendor who has put their property with an agent then does a direct deal with somebody who presumably saw the board and knocked on the door. I'd imagine that would be the way to contact a vendor direct, unless they are also advertising on sites themselves, like the link somebody here provided.
> 
> Personally, I would rather work with an agent. Firstly, they could well have delivered some reality to an over-hopeful vendor when setting the price. Secondly, when I bought my place I thought it was advertised at about the right price so I made the approach on that basis. I've no idea how much passed from the vendor to the agent.
> 
> Anyway... onto a possibly helpful suggestion in answer to the question...
> 
> One thing you could do is see if there is a Facebook group for the area that you are thinking of buying in. There is a very active and heavily subscribed one for the place I live in, and I know private sales and rentals are often advertised on there.


We once advertised a property for sale in Sur in English. The only response we got was from Agents wanting to list it, a few time timewasters and some scammers. One who wanted me to travel to Belgium to complete. research showed he had been around the block. We had Correadors too. Their logic was to ask how much you wanted from the sale but if they sell at a much higher price they have the profit.

A friend listed with the Viva agency as exclusive rights. They then sold privately but were ordered to pay Viva the commission.


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## mrypg9

We bought properties which we rented out in the UK and Canada. When we left the UK we sold everything, commercial premises too. We rented for three years in Prague and have done so since we arrived here in 2008.

If you rent you put money in a landlord’s pocket. If you buy with borrowed money you put money in a bank’s pocket. No difference.

The advantages for us in renting is that we rented really nice houses in areas which would have taken a chunk out of our savings to buy. We stayed for ten years in our house here in Spain. Our landlord was responsible and we had zero problems. I moved out when my partner died and Im now renting a small house which belongs to friends on a large piece of land where all kinds of fruit and vegetables are grown and although in the country is a short drive to town.
It was so easy to move. A months notce and I was gone. No waiting for a sale.

I have heard recently that the large villa adjacent to the house I lived in has been sold and is rented out at €600 a night via air b n b and other agencies. The annoyance to neighbours from guests who have pool parties until the early hours and generally make a nuisance of themselves is causing considerable distress in what was a peaceful neighbourhood. Last week twenty French Moroccans took the place over and the police had to be called to break up a raucous party which allegedly involved drugs and prostitutes taxied in from a nearby club.
Two other friends who have apartments in gated communities have had their summer spoiled by noisy guests in holiday rentals.

I dont know how widespread this kind of thing is and I guess its mainly on the costas but its something Id bear in mind when considering buying.


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