# Brit seeking move to Germany.



## Daryl90 (3 mo ago)

Hello everyone, 

Forgive me if I sound naive and full of wishful thinking but I am looking for some advice and guidance.

My girlfriend and I have been in a relationship for just over a year. She is a German citizen living in Germany and I’m from the UK. We are currently exploring options about where future may lie. The ideal situation would be for me to move to Munich to live with her. However….

I am not considered a ‘skilled worker’. I have a degree which is recognised in Germany but it is not specific to my current job.

In short -
Is there any hope for someone in my circumstances to be allowed to live and work in Germany? Or is it black and white. If you’re not in the EU you can only work in Germany in a skilled role?

Any advice or shared experiences would be most welcome.

Kind Regards,

Daryl


----------



## Überling (Mar 18, 2021)

Hey Daryl, I’m a US citizen who was in a similar boat. My girlfriend at the time was German and we wanted to move to the Trier area to be with her family. We got married and that was enough to allow me to join her in Germany with a residency permit. There was a bit of hoop-jumping after that, though, because I had to pass the A1 German proficiency course, get my drivers license from square one (even though I had been driving longer than my driving instructor!), get private health insurance and so on. But six months later everything was done. I’m allowed to work here for three years, and after that time I can apply for a more permanent residency if I can pass the B1 German proficiency course. So it seems to me that as long as you are willing to get married, you should be able to achieve your goals. There are other methods you can use to get in, but that would be the easiest.


----------



## Daryl90 (3 mo ago)

Überling said:


> Hey Daryl, I’m a US citizen who was in a similar boat. My girlfriend at the time was German and we wanted to move to the Trier area to be with her family. We got married and that was enough to allow me to join her in Germany with a residency permit. There was a bit of hoop-jumping after that, though, because I had to pass the A1 German proficiency course, get my drivers license from square one (even though I had been driving longer than my driving instructor!), get private health insurance and so on. But six months later everything was done. I’m allowed to work here for three years, and after that time I can apply for a more permanent residency if I can pass the B1 German proficiency course. So it seems to me that as long as you are willing to get married, you should be able to achieve your goals. There are other methods you can use to get in, but that would be the easiest.


 Thank you for taking the time to respond. I appreciate that marriage would likely be the easier avenue. But we would like to explore other options that might be available to us first. Are you aware of what those other methods are and how likely they are to succeed? Again, I appreciate your response. Thanks


----------



## Überling (Mar 18, 2021)

you’re welcome. These links should help you:









Information and types of visa for Germany


Visas cover both short-term and long-term stays in Germany: information on the different types of German visa and the visa application procedure.




www.iamexpat.de












Germany Visa Types, Requirements, Application & Guidelines


Germany VISA - Information about different Germany VISA types, document requirements for the application, visa fees and application form.




www.schengenvisainfo.com





Good luck!


----------



## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

Daryl90 said:


> I am not considered a ‘skilled worker’. I have a degree which is recognised in Germany but it is not specific to my current job.


What is your current job and what kind of degree do you hold?


----------



## Harry Moles (11 mo ago)

The short version is, you have three options:

get married and be sponsored (under national rather than EU rules because you'd be marrying a German)
find a job that is willing to sponsor you and for which there is no EU candidate
enroll in university


----------



## Harry Moles (11 mo ago)

PS full-time language study would also count


----------



## Daryl90 (3 mo ago)

ALKB said:


> What is your current job and what kind of degree do you hold?


Hello, My degree is in Criminology and I am currently a Police Officer (Been in the Police for over 5 years). Daryl


----------



## Daryl90 (3 mo ago)

Harry Moles said:


> The short version is, you have three options:
> 
> get married and be sponsored (under national rather than EU rules because you'd be marrying a German)
> find a job that is willing to sponsor you and for which there is no EU candidate
> enroll in university


Hi Harry,

Thank you for response.

If I was able to find a job willing to sponsor me would that job have to coincide with my degree or could it be any job as long as there was no EU candidate?

Daryl


----------



## *Sunshine* (Mar 13, 2016)

You just need a job offer with a market wage.

How well do you speak German.


----------



## Daryl90 (3 mo ago)

*Sunshine* said:


> You just need a job offer with a market wage.
> 
> How well do you speak German.


Hello,

Thank you for your reply.

Do you know what a typical market wage would be at present?

My German is limited at the moment if I’m honest. However, any plan to move (if possible) would not be until this time next year. I am in the process of learning and hopefully a year will give me enough time to get better. I’d obviously be very keen to continue learning in Germany as well.

Daryl


----------



## *Sunshine* (Mar 13, 2016)

Why doesn't your girlfriend move to be with you? 

Munich is very expensive and with neither fluent German nor a transferable occupation, I really don't think you have many employment prospects in Germany. 

On the other hand if you get married and have about B2 German you could probably find a job in the hospitality sector.


----------



## Daryl90 (3 mo ago)

*Sunshine* said:


> Why doesn't your girlfriend move to be with you?
> 
> Munich is very expensive and with neither fluent German nor a transferable occupation, I really don't think you have many employment prospects in Germany.
> 
> On the other hand if you get married and have about B2 German you could probably find a job in the hospitality sector.


Yeah I appreciate my prospects aren’t great under my current circumstances.

So with her employment she will need to be in Munich for the next 3-4 years. I am in the better position personally to make the move. Her family are very supportive and we’d be lucky enough to have our own place in Munich to live without any rent.

So other than marriage, it sounds like the only hope I’d have is to miraculously get a job offer for a role that requires a predominantly English speaker. Never say never, right? 

Daryl


----------



## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Daryl90 said:


> Do you know what a typical market wage would be at present?


Depends on the job and the industry. And don't say that you would take "any job." I was the HR person where I worked in Germany (in addition to being the Controller) and used to get tons of applications from American servicemen looking to stay in Germany with their German wives and they all said they would do "any job." You really need to apply for a specific job (or line of work) so that you can give them your qualifications for the job you are seeking.


----------



## *Sunshine* (Mar 13, 2016)

Daryl90 said:


> Yeah I appreciate my prospects aren’t great under my current circumstances.


Not having to pay rent in Munich means that you could still make ends meet with a minimum wage job. However, the first question you need to ask yourself is if you're willing to give up having a career in order to be with your girlfriend and if you'll be satisfied working at minimum wage jobs.

Germany has taken in about a million Ukranians since the war started and they all have a head start learning German and filling positions that require few formal qualifications and a low level of German. 

You really need to give some thought to jobs you could do in Germany.


----------



## Harry Moles (11 mo ago)

Your job is not easily transferable, particularly without language skills. (Back in the mid-noughts oil boom, Alberta was hiring British cops by the busload, but those days are over.) I'm sure you could work in private security with enough German but not sure that's going to get you a work permit.

If you can live rent-free, have a bit saved and don't mind being someone's dependant, you could move to Munich and enrol in language classes for a year? You may still need to get married to stay, but that at least buys you some time to see how it all works.


----------



## Daryl90 (3 mo ago)

If I’m honest I have spent the last 5+ years focusing on my career and it hasn’t got me to where I want to be in life. So the idea of taking a risk to experience something new doesn’t concern me. If minimum wage jobs are what can get me through the door, so to speak, then that wouldn’t be a problem. I also have experience in customer services and hospitality (admittedly, like a lot of other people). Id go back to the mid-noughties in a heart beat, Harry! Thank you for your replies, you’ve given me a lot to think about. I appreciate your time and welcome any further input  Daryl


----------



## Harry Moles (11 mo ago)

It was a bit trippy walking around downtown Calgary or Edmonton 15 years ago when it seemed like half the cops had thick northern accents. Glaswegian constables probably knew a thing or two about breaking up bar brawls. (Cities were growing at a furious pace and with all the easy money in the oilfields the police had great difficulty recruiting.)


----------



## *Sunshine* (Mar 13, 2016)

Daryl90 said:


> If I’m honest I have spent the last 5+ years focusing on my career and it hasn’t got me to where I want to be in life. So the idea of taking a risk to experience something new doesn’t concern me. If minimum wage jobs are what can get me through the door


Get you through the door and then what? Germany is still a country where formal qualifications are more important than actual skills and moving up the ladder without the necessary formal qualifications is next to impossible. 

Germany has on one hand many welfare recipients who are more or less unemployable and on the other a severe shortage of workers in skilled trades. Theoretically there are programmes to help potential workers train, however, the number who actually manage are nowhere near sufficient. 

You really need to think about your expectations. Based on the little info you've provided, the only way I can see you get out of the low wage sector with the qualifications you've mentioned is to marry your girlfriend and then after 3 years of living here (and learning German) apply for German citizenship and then the police force. The other option is to start over in a new sector with an apprenticeship. 

Since you don't plan to move immediately, I would recommend that you take the time to not only learn German, but also decide what you want to do in Germany.


----------



## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

*Sunshine* said:


> The other option is to start over in a new sector with an apprenticeship.


Alternatively maybe a year of intensive language study (pricey) and then a Masters degree? A different Bachelor?


----------



## *Sunshine* (Mar 13, 2016)

ALKB said:


> Alternatively maybe a year of intensive language study (pricey) and then a Masters degree? A different Bachelor?


In what field? Germany has too many university grads in most fields and many foreign grads (especially those who study in English) struggle to find skilled employment in their fields. IT might be an option.

Although there is shortage of medical doctors as well as spots in medical schools in Germany, there is no shortage of med school applicants. 

At the moment I think an apprenticeship opens more doors than academic degrees for foreigners. University is an excellent way to improve German language skills, however, prospective foreign students really need to consider future employment prospects. 



*Sunshine* said:


> Based on the little info you've provided, the only way I can see you get out of the low wage sector with the qualifications you've mentioned is to marry your girlfriend and then after 3 years of living here (and learning German) apply for German citizenship and then the police force. The other option is to start over in a new sector with an apprenticeship.


After thinking about this suggestion, I'm not sure if it is viable. I'm not sure whether your foreign (now non-EU) training would be recognised. You'd need to contact them.


----------



## Daryl90 (3 mo ago)

Harry Moles said:


> It was a bit trippy walking around downtown Calgary or Edmonton 15 years ago when it seemed like half the cops had thick northern accents. Glaswegian constables probably knew a thing or two about breaking up bar brawls. (Cities were growing at a furious pace and with all the easy money in the oilfields the police had great difficulty recruiting.)


Oh I can imagine. I actually have family from Scotland so regularly have to try and understand thick Glaswegian accents. Understanding German would surely be a doddle in comparison


----------



## Daryl90 (3 mo ago)

*Sunshine* said:


> Get you through the door and then what? Germany is still a country where formal qualifications are more important than actual skills and moving up the ladder without the necessary formal qualifications is next to impossible.
> 
> Germany has on one hand many welfare recipients who are more or less unemployable and on the other a severe shortage of workers in skilled trades. Theoretically there are programmes to help potential workers train, however, the number who actually manage are nowhere near sufficient.
> 
> ...


It would be my understanding that if I was lucky enough to get even a minimum wage job in Germany, it would at least benefit me in looking for potentially better jobs after that. I am not looking to limit myself to jobs similar to my current career. Although I understand that may be my only option with the way things work in Germany. I’d be more than willing to re-train and start anew via apprenticeships.

I am at the very beginning of trying to understand my options and how everything works. I know I need to think about things realistically. That’s why I’m very grateful for yours, and everyone else’s input.

Daryl


----------



## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

*Sunshine* said:


> In what field? Germany has too many university grads in most fields and many foreign grads (especially those who study in English) struggle to find skilled employment in their fields. IT might be an option.
> 
> Although there is shortage of medical doctors as well as spots in medical schools in Germany, there is no shortage of med school applicants.
> 
> ...


I am a big fan of our apprenticeship system!

I only tried to suggest a route that doesn´t require marriage beforehand to gain access to the labor market. The maximum age for an apprenticeship residence permit is 25 and I suspect OP is older than that, with a degree in criminology and five years in the police force.

He could of course do an apprenticeship if he manages to get a residence permit with work rights. I know several people who have done apprenticeships in their thirties and even early fourties.


----------



## Harry Moles (11 mo ago)

Is there a YMV/WHV option available to UK citizens? Canadians can quite easily pitch up in Germany to work, study or do nothing at all (if self-supporting) for a year or two as late as age 35. Not sure about the UK and too lazy to Google. Possibly thanks to history's greatest own goal (i.e. Brexit) Brits actually have fewer opportunities than Canadians.


----------



## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

Harry Moles said:


> Is there a YMV/WHV option available to UK citizens? Canadians can quite easily pitch up in Germany to work, study or do nothing at all (if self-supporting) for a year or two as late as age 35. Not sure about the UK and too lazy to Google. Possibly thanks to history's greatest own goal (i.e. Brexit) Brits actually have fewer opportunities than Canadians.


Not at the moment. These things are based on reciprocity and there haven´t been any negotiations regarding this since Brexit, at least to my knowledge.

Once young Germans are allowed to get a working holiday/youth mobility visa for the UK, I am sure the same will be true for young Brits wanting to go to Germany for a while.


----------



## Harry Moles (11 mo ago)

I suspected as much.


----------



## *Sunshine* (Mar 13, 2016)

ALKB said:


> I only tried to suggest a route that doesn´t require marriage beforehand to gain access to the labor market.


From what I've heard at the moment it is possible in some areas to get work permits for certain dead end jobs in low wage sectors. Considering the OP is willing to move to a foreign country because he is not happy with his career progression at home, I think he'll be miserable in dead end jobs with no chance of career progression.



ALKB said:


> I am a big fan of our apprenticeship system!


The system works well to train workers to accomplish certain tasks and offers a path to secure employment for foreigners who choose a good apprenticeship, however, it doesn't teach enough critical thinking and transferable skills. Too many Germans still believe that workers need specific qualifications to perform certain jobs that in many other countries only require on the job training. Making apprenticeships something good for those who have them, but at the same time a barrier to those who don't. 

AFAIK Munich doesn't have multilingual call centers (they've moved to cities with lower housing costs) and the freelance teaching sector has not quite recovered from the pandemic.


----------



## Daryl90 (3 mo ago)

*Sunshine* said:


> From what I've heard at the moment it is possible in some areas to get work permits for certain dead end jobs in low wage sectors. Considering the OP is willing to move to a foreign country because he is not happy with his career progression at home, I think he'll be miserable in dead end jobs with no chance of career progression.
> 
> 
> The system works well to train workers to accomplish certain tasks and offers a path to secure employment for foreigners who choose a good apprenticeship, however, it doesn't teach enough critical thinking and transferable skills. Too many Germans still believe that workers need specific qualifications to perform certain jobs that in many other countries only require on the job training. Making apprenticeships something good for those who have them, but at the same time a barrier to those who don't.
> ...


I’m not looking to leave my career because of lack of prospects, I’m looking to leave because I lack satisfaction for the amount of stress that comes with my line of work. And being able to live with my partner in a new and exciting city is much more appealing to me. I’d like to think if I was able to get any type of job in Germany after a few years I’d be settled enough to try and progress a career and perhaps marriage could then play a role too.

I have travelled a bit in my life as well and have looking into teaching English as a foreign language in other countries. Is anyone aware if there is a market for that type of work in Germany? I’d be able to train to the required level and I have a degree (although not specifically linked to teaching). I’d just lack some experience, but sounds like degrees count for more than experience in Germany anyway.

Daryl


----------



## *Sunshine* (Mar 13, 2016)

Daryl90 said:


> I’d like to think if I was able to get any type of job in Germany after a few years I’d be settled enough to try and progress a career


What makes you assume that will be possible? I think this false assumption is the main flaw in your plan. It is also a false assumption that many foreigners before you have made and then regretted when years later they were still stuck in dead end jobs with no chance of advancement. 

ESL in Germany is usually freelance and it takes time to build a business. You'll need comprehensive German private health insurance as well as a few clients in order to obtain a permit. This option also requires substantial savings.


----------



## Daryl90 (3 mo ago)

*Sunshine* said:


> What makes you assume that will be possible? I think this false assumption is the main flaw in your plan. It is also a false assumption that many foreigners before you have made and then regretted when years later they were still stuck in dead end jobs with no chance of advancement. ESL in Germany is usually freelance and it takes time to build a business. You'll need comprehensive German private health insurance as well as a few clients in order to obtain a permit. This option also requires substantial savings.


 Making assumptions is one thing I’m trying not to do. As I’ve mentioned, I’m at the very early stages of my research. I’m merely thinking out loud to invoke conversation with people like yourself. Perhaps I am looking at things through rose tinted glasses sometimes, but would I equally regret not taking those risks. Of course there has to be a level of realism to it all but I’m sure things have worked out for many foreigners before me. Okay. That’s helpful to know. Thank you.


----------



## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

There is a thread in the International section here about someone with ESL credentials. In much (most?) of Europe I think you'll find that teaching English is vastly over-rated, mostly by native English speakers. Yes, there are language schools and there is some demand for English classes among businesses - but the teachers are pretty miserably paid, and many language schools don't insist on ESL credentials (in part because it means they can pay less). This was certainly the case back in pre-Brexit days, when the UK nationality still meant you didn't need a visa nor a work permit. The need for work authorization and immigration documents just makes things that much tougher.

One other option (though it is a bit of a long shot) would be to start perusing the Jobs section of the British Embassy, Consulate and the British Council in Munich. You might find something there that is a match for your qualifications and experience and would give you a few years of excellent (and transferable) experience. Generally speaking, government agencies can hire their own nationals without the need for a visa or work permit. Check, too, to see if there are any "international NGOs" in Munich, as the same applies to them - you don't need a visa or a work permit. The down side is that your time working there does not count as having "resided" in Germany for immigration purposes - but as the British Council Jobs site indicates, a few years of experience working for an "international agency" like that can do wonders for your CV as well as giving the opportunity to learn the local language. (It's just a suggestion - but I did do a short-term contract with the OECD here in Paris back when I was having my immigration problems. Learned a lot during the two months I worked there - including that I didn't want to work directly in Paris. <g>)


----------



## *Sunshine* (Mar 13, 2016)

Bevdeforges said:


> Generally speaking, government agencies can hire their own nationals without the need for a visa or work permit.


Do you have a source for that *completely inaccurate statement*? 

Locally Employed Staff of foreign embassies are employed under German labor laws and require German work permits.


----------



## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

*Sunshine* said:


> Locally Employed Staff of foreign embassies are employed under German labor laws and require German work permits.


I was afraid that may have changed - but back when I first arrived in France, the foreign embassies "could" hire their own nationals without a visa, however at the time official policy was to hire local nationals wherever possible (at least at the US Embassy and Consulate). It also depends on the level of the job involved. But it certainly doesn't hurt to check the job postings now and then.

I don't know if there are any international NGOs or similar "international civil service" organizations in Munich, but again, it pays to see what you can find out by checking the websites of the individual NGOs. In Paris, there is the OECD and UNESCO who can hire without requiring a visa. Not all NGOs can hire like that - and often your country of origin has to be a member of the particular NGO. I said it was a long shot, but it's a question worth asking at least.


----------



## Harry Moles (11 mo ago)

A lifetime ago I was a locally-engaged staff member of an embassy as a citizen of neither my employer nor Germany. I already had a residence permit as a trailing spouse, but without permission to work. What I recall is that I had to make a trip out to the Arbeitsamt to get something stamped before I could renew my Aufenthaltserlaubnis. This happened a month or two after I'd begun working. My sense was that you did officially need some sort of formal approval, but it was granted automatically, there was no labour-market test to prove a lack of EU candidates or anything like that.

The tax situation was quite peculiar. As a third-party national I paid tax to neither country, but to keep things fair my employer reduced my salary by the equivalent of German tax. Made life very simple as I had no Steuernummer and didn't need to file a return.


----------



## *Sunshine* (Mar 13, 2016)

Bevdeforges said:


> I was afraid that may have changed - but back when I first arrived in France, the foreign embassies "could" hire their own nationals without a visa, however at the time official policy was to hire local nationals wherever possible (at least at the US Embassy and Consulate).


In the past 15 years I've worked at one and interviewed at two other foreign embassies in Germany. 

The information on the website of the US Embassy in Germany very clearly states that they will not sponsor permits and require proof of permission to work in Germany as part of the application process for LES. While chatting with someone from HR before my interview there I actually asked about their policy and I was told that they have enough applicants for their positions (they also pay relatively well). 

The British Embassy has had quite a few really interesting positions in the past few years and also claim that they don't sponsor permits. Given their relatively low salaries I'm not sure if they have many applicants. 

The EPO is in Munich, however, their language requirements are rather high and he'd need to check the citizenship requirements.


----------

