# Best way to establish source of income for long-term visa?



## Kenpimentel

Currently, we're on a work visa, but I intend to retire in a year. We want to remain in France, so we plan to go after a long term visa.

Our situation:

Bought a house
Daughter in university here
USA citizen
Early sixties

We have funds in USA (retirement funds), but I understand those will be ignored by authorities when we apply. They just want to see a family minimum wage income to confirm they won't be supporting us.

My options seem to be:
1) Take USA SS earlier than planned (65 instead of 70), which should cover the requirements
2) Convert savings into some other vehicle that would satisfy the authorities
3) Wire myself €5K/month from my savings to demonstrate an ongoing "income"

Are there other methods to investigate? Not sure how hard it will be to meet the requirements given our situation and background.


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## bhamham

I'd opt for #3 and designate the transfer so it reads 'pension' on your French bank acct statement. Wise and all the money transfer outfits should be able to do this on the same day each month. Wait until your 70 (if you're healthy) for SS.


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## Bevdeforges

I know conventional wisdom in the US seems to be to hold off until age 70 to start collecting US SS, but for those who are looking to move overseas where they need to show a pension, you can start collecting SS at age 62 or any time thereafter. If you have substantial retirement funds (IRA, 401K, etc.), taking your SS early enough to use as proof of retirement income can put off having to tap your personal savings and simplify your life by quite a bit especially if you have your Social Security direct deposited into your French bank account. 

If your retirement funds are located in the US, you may run up against policies of the fund holder on making transfers outside the country (some won't transfer to any but a US based bank, others may require a minimum withholding of taxes on your withdrawal) - and you'll have to pay to convert your monthly transfers from US $ to euros. If you let the Consulate in Paris direct deposit the funds for you, they are converted at a very good rate (due to the total amount the Consulate exchanges each month in bulk) and no effort required on your part to do either the transfer or the exchange. (Don't forget that many French banks will charge you for accepting a bank transfer from outside the EU.)


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## jweihl

I concur, do number 3. But, I don't know that they will ignore your retirement account. If it's healthy enough, then I'm guessing, based on our experience, it will be considered. Our situation is very similar to yours. 

We were approved without issue and demonstrated the following. At the time of our visa application we were both retired (me a few years, her less than 1 year), and were both 61 years old. We were living off a healthy bank balance and roughly $4k in monthly income from the sale of shares in her law firm. We also had quite healthy IRA and SEP accounts, as well as an annuity. So we provided statements from our US bank account, our French bank account, our annuity, our Fidelity accounts, and our Social Security estimates. In our "letter" we explained that we expected to live for the first year off our bank accounts, the next year off the sale of our house, then we would begin receiving distributions (I made up an monthly amount) from our Fidelity accounts, and finally our annuity and social security monthly payments would begin after 2-3 years. There didn't seem to be any questions during our meeting at VFS, and our visas were issued within a couple days. I'm guessing that the Washington consulate is quite familiar with IRAs and social security, and that if you can demonstrate with your statements that you'll have plenty of funds, they'll be fine.


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## dpdapper

Kenpimentel said:


> We have funds in USA (retirement funds), but I understand those will be ignored by authorities when we apply. They just want to see a family minimum wage income to confirm they won't be supporting us.


This is not true in my experience. When my wife and I first applied for our long-term visas in 2012 I was retired, although my wife was still working, we relied on both retirement and non-retirement brokerage accounts. And as she retired shortly after that the subsequent renewals of our cartes de séjour were based solely on amounts in our brokerage accounts—i.e, no work income. And in the last few years we have relied solely on income/withdrawals from retirement (i.e., 401(k), IRA) accounts. 

The thing is to show a steady income stream, such as regular withdrawals from your retirement accounts, if that is the source of your income. While income from US retirement accounts isn’t taxed in France, you can still use them to show sufficient income for visa/carte de séjour purposes.


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## Willuth

For a VSLT (6-month) visa for someone who owns a flat in France, if the current a/c is not showing enough, can you not produce a statement from a deposit a/c that shows a healthy, steady balance over a number of years? Both a/cs from a reputable UK high street bank.
W


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## Bevdeforges

For a six month visa, you really only need to show that you have sufficient funds for the six months you intend to stay in France. All this talk of retirement funds and pensions really relates to those applying for a 1 year + visa in order to settle in France for an indefinite period of time.


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## Kenpimentel

Thanks for the info. We’re planning to get 1 year visas until we can qualify as long-term residents. I will have 1 year from my work permit and will need 4 years from 1 year renewals. That’s what I think I need to do.

BTW, I am currently wiring €5K/mo from Schwab without any wiring fees and since it is in Euros, it goes right into my HSBC.fr account without any fees. Schwab gives you 2 free wires every 3 months or something like that. I compared to TransferWise and Schwab was a better all-around deal for moving the money. So, that part seems pretty easy. Just wanted to make sure it was a reasonable strategy. I’m starting it a year earlier than I need to just to cover my bases.


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## bdelancy

Sonds like your situation is not too different from mine. I own a home in France and just recently obtained a long stay visa. My application included only evidence that I own the home, evidence of my monthly Social Security payment and my last 3 quarterly statements from one of my retirement accounts. I received the visa almost immediately, so it was some combination of already having housing, showing monthly social security payments and showing sufficient other assets.


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## Bevdeforges

Kenpimentel said:


> We’re planning to get 1 year visas until we can qualify as long-term residents. I will have 1 year from my work permit and will need 4 years from 1 year renewals. That’s what I think I need to do.


Being in France on a one year visa IS qualification as a resident. Once you are in France on a long-stay visa, you will have to get a residence permit - the carte de séjour that everyone talks about here. That IS your residence permit - and it will have to be renewed every year until you reach the point where you qualify for a multi-year carte de séjour (that keeps changing so I'm not certain when that happens) and then for a carte de resident (which is a 10 year carte de séjour). 

Is there a particular reason you are starting out with a work permit? If you only work in France for a single year you'll have the need to jump through hoops to change your carte de séjour status - to that of visitor if you'll be retiring after only a year. And I'm pretty certain that a single year of working in France won't do anything for you in terms of a French retirement or the ability to claim continued enrollment in the Sécu after you leave your job. 

Don't forget - a visa is a document that allows you to ENTER France. To stay in France you need a resident permit/titre de séjour. You don't renew the visa, just the residence permit.

One other thing I was thinking of that might be of interest to you. I know "everyone" tells you to hold off applying for US SS until you turn 70 because at that point you get the maximum monthly benefit. But US SS is only a monthly benefit. If you drop dead two weeks after you get that first payment, that's it - the government will pull back the payment (because you didn't survive the whole month) and that's all you get no matter how much you paid in. If you have any interest in passing whatever remains in your retirement funds (IRA, 401K, etc.) to family members or to a favorite charity after you are gone, you'd do better to leave your retirement funds alone to continue to grow and just use the SS benefit as your primary financial resource. Just a thought.


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## NYCEnglish

That's a good point about taking SS early, in some cases it can make sense but in others, it definitely does not. Your spouse is guaranteed the greater of his/her SS benefits or 50% of yours, so holding off can be advantageous especially in cases where the spouse left the workforce early (say to take care of kids) as even if the larger earner dies early as the spouse would get 50% of those benefits post-humorously for the rest of their life. Another advantage of trying to get the most SS benefit possible is that they automatically adjust based on cost-of-living (in the US) formulas, with an IRA/SEP/401K, etc that's up to you to ensure your investments are covering the cost of inflation each year. 

As always, everyone's situation is unique.


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## Kenpimentel

Thanks for clarification. I'm on the pathway to get a multi-year carte de sejour (I already have the 1 year from my work visa). Having my company move me from UK to France meant that they handled all the paperwork. Having a work contract (open-ended) also simplified getting certain things. 

Yes, I understand I'm throwing away the money that goes into the security system here in France. Nothing really I can do as I think I'd have to work five more years to qualify for a pension. I simply can't imagine working that long. I try not to think of that money...

If you hold out receiving your SS payout, it is like a 7% return on your money every year (I made the calculation), so I'd certainly prefer to avoid dipping until I'm 70 as it almost doubles my monthly amount. There is also the yearly SS COLA adjustment (which you start seeing once you start withdrawing). If the COLA is higher than the inflation in France, then that incremental adjustment can help too. Like NYCEnglish says, my wife benefits because my 50% is higher than her SS payout, so she receives my 50% instead.


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## bhamham

It's a no brainer to wait until 70 if you're healthy and are of means to support yourself until then.


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## Bevdeforges

Depends on what you want to do with your money. I've been somewhat amazed to find that, since I started making withdrawals from my retirement funds, the total amount left in the fund is almost exactly what it was when I started (about 5 years ago). And I have a rather hefty sum stashed away in savings here in France - nearly all from US retirement fund withdrawals.

Now, I'm withdrawing funds mainly to get it all converted and into my working currency (euros) - not to live on, nor to prove my financial resources to anyone for anything. But it is definitely worth taking a look at what you need and want from your Social Security benefits rather than just jumping at the "popular wisdom" side of things. The SS Admin is not always as generous with the COL increases as they have been this year.


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## Froggie06

Bevdeforges said:


> I know conventional wisdom in the US seems to be to hold off until age 70 to start collecting US SS, but for those who are looking to move overseas where they need to show a pension, you can start collecting SS at age 62 or any time thereafter. If you have substantial retirement funds (IRA, 401K, etc.), taking your SS early enough to use as proof of retirement income can put off having to tap your personal savings and simplify your life by quite a bit especially if you have your Social Security direct deposited into your French bank account.
> 
> If your retirement funds are located in the US, you may run up against policies of the fund holder on making transfers outside the country (some won't transfer to any but a US based bank, others may require a minimum withholding of taxes on your withdrawal) - and you'll have to pay to convert your monthly transfers from US $ to euros. If you let the Consulate in Paris direct deposit the funds for you, they are converted at a very good rate (due to the total amount the Consulate exchanges each month in bulk) and no effort required on your part to do either the transfer or the exchange. (Don't forget that many French banks will charge you for accepting a bank transfer from outside the EU.)


Do you know if using the consulate to direct mu ss benefits on my french bank account after conversion us to euro do they charge any fees for the transaction


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## Bevdeforges

Froggie06 said:


> Do you know if using the consulate to direct mu ss benefits on my french bank account after conversion us to euro do they charge any fees for the transaction


No, they don't charge any fees. And, you get the Consulate's exchange rate which is generally much better than anything you can get as an individual, given that they are transferring a rather significant sum of money every month to make direct deposits to all US SS recipients living in France.


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## Froggie06

Bevdeforges said:


> No, they don't charge any fees. And, you get the Consulate's exchange rate which is generally much better than anything you can get as an individual, given that they are transferring a rather significant sum of money every month to make direct deposits to all US SS recipients living in France.


Thank you Bev for your clarifications.


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## 255

The most common age that Americans take SS is 62, by a rather large margin. As many have said, there is wisdom in waiting until 70 to draw, if you have the where with all. The 50% spousal benefit has been mentioned, but the real kicker, for us, is the 100% Survivor's benefit. Cheers, 255


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## 255

@Kenpimentel -- So far this thread has addressed the title questions of funds and has focused on your 3d option, SS. It sounds like your have the means to establish your financial independence, in retirement, various different ways.

I think the most important issue, you will need to address is actually your visa/resident permit. My understanding is that visas can not be changed within France (except for the Passeport Talent.) That might necessitate a return to the U.S. on the termination of your work contract, which would negate your 1 year residence for longer term residency/citizenship purposes. An alternative, might be to get a Passeport talent initially and then change to a self-employed type of Passeport Talent on your retirement from employment. A Passeport Talent can be viable for 4 years and is renewable. Once you have 5 years residence, you can apply for either a long term visa or citizenship. Cheers, 255


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## bdelancy

Bevdeforges said:


> No, they don't charge any fees. And, you get the Consulate's exchange rate which is generally much better than anything you can get as an individual, given that they are transferring a rather significant sum of money every month to make direct deposits to all US SS recipients living in France.


I have not previously heard about using the consulate. If anyone is aware of a website that describes how that works, please post a link.


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## 255

@bdelancy -- I don't know if there is a website, but just contact the Federal Benefits Unit (FBU,) at the Embassy in Paris. Send them an email and they'll let you know what they need to make it happen. Social Security Contact Us In my limited experience, they are fairly quick to respond. Cheers, 255


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## bdelancy

Thank you!


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## JCheeverLoophole

bhamham said:


> I'd opt for #3 and designate the transfer so it reads 'pension' on your French bank acct statement. Wise and all the money transfer outfits should be able to do this on the same day each month. Wait until your 70 (if you're healthy) for SS.


Here's a possible reason NOT to delay taking Social Security until age 70:

It is my understanding that you must have a GOVERNMENT pension in order to be exempt from paying the CSM (premium) for the PUMA (French national health insurance). If you can't show that you have a government pension (such as SS) then you will be subject to a levy of 6.5% against your world-wide investment income above approximately 20,500 EUR up to a limit of 325,000 EUR. 

See this article from the AARO web site: Special Note for Residents in France

Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken.


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## JCheeverLoophole

Moreover, if you're thinking that you wouldn't have to pay the CSM if you don't sign up for the PUMA, you'd be mistaken. Once you file a French tax return (mandatory for residents) then the French tax authorities (the "fisc") notify the French social security collection agency (Urssaf) who will then send you a bill for the previous year's CSM, even if you haven't signed up for the PUMA.


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## Bevdeforges

Start here: International Programs

Each consulate has their own way of doing things, based on how the banking system works in their country. But once you are in France, you can contact the Federal Benefits Unit at the Embassy to arrange to have your benefits direct deposited in your French account. Federal Benefits Contact


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## Bevdeforges

JCheeverLoophole said:


> It is my understanding that you must have a GOVERNMENT pension in order to be exempt from paying the CSM (premium) for the PUMA (French national health insurance). If you can't show that you have a government pension (such as SS) then you will be subject to a levy of 6.5% against your world-wide investment income above approximately 20,500 EUR up to a limit of 325,000 EUR.


Just be aware that under the US-France Tax Treaty, IRAs, 401Ks and similar retirement savings programs are considered "government" sponsored pension programs. (See Article 18 if you have any doubts.) But it's usually a good idea to take regular withdrawals if you want to assert that for French tax purposes.


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## bhamham

JCheeverLoophole said:


> Here's a possible reason NOT to delay taking Social Security until age 70:
> 
> It is my understanding that you must have a GOVERNMENT pension in order to be exempt from paying the CSM (premium) for the PUMA (French national health insurance). If you can't show that you have a government pension (such as SS) then you will be subject to a levy of 6.5% against your world-wide investment income above approximately 20,500 EUR up to a limit of 325,000 EUR.
> 
> See this article from the AARO web site: Special Note for Residents in France
> 
> Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken.


Well, if Ken's calculation of 7% p.a. earnings on his SS is right then it would give him a .5% over what he would pay above the 20,500e threshold. My guess is the principal on his SS is far greater than what he would be assessed over 20,500e and it would only apply for a few years until 70. I'd still wait but that's me.


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