# Solar panels



## IcarusStyx (Dec 11, 2015)

Solar panels, do they work, has anyone had them fitted to their property and are they cost effective?

We are in the middle of renovating our house in Mallorca and are thinking about solar panels for heating the water. Does anyone know if you have to have solar panels fitted to a new property or one that is being renovated?


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

IcarusStyx said:


> Solar panels, do they work, has anyone had them fitted to their property and are they cost effective?
> 
> We are in the middle of renovating our house in Mallorca and are thinking about solar panels for heating the water. Does anyone know if you have to have solar panels fitted to a new property or one that is being renovated?


Yes they work - you only have to look at the many solar farms in Spain.

However, are they a cost-effective alternative to being on the grid - in my opinion no.

If you already have access to power from the grid, then the installation cost plus replacement cost (mainly the batteries) after a few years is too high to even consider.

If you can't get power from the grid, then they are a good option.


For heating water rather than producing electricity - they are an excellent option and should be made obligatory in all new builds or even on major refurbishments (IMHO).


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## IcarusStyx (Dec 11, 2015)

Thank you.

Do you use them for heating water or heating the house? How many panels do you have and for how many bathrooms/showers? 



snikpoh said:


> Yes they work - you only have to look at the many solar farms in Spain.
> 
> However, are they a cost-effective alternative to being on the grid - in my opinion no.
> 
> ...


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

We have one panel for heating water it feeds an indirect storage tank and is usually sufficient for the three of us (+washing the dogs once every 7-10 days) between March and October/November depending on how powerful the sunshine is. In the shorter daylight periods, it can run a bit cool if the suegra has had one of her 30 minute showers.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I thought all new-builds had to have water-heating panels by law?
http://www.solarthermalworld.org/sites/gstec/files/legislation spain.pdf

But it makes absolute sense to install them if you are renovating an older property.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Solar panels for electric now have to be registered as you now have to pay an amount of tax on the cost of feeding back into the grid using their infrastructure. Failure to register has a starting fine of 6 million euros. :lol:


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

gus-lopez said:


> Solar panels for electric now have to be registered as you now have to pay an amount of tax on the cost of feeding back into the grid using their infrastructure. Failure to register has a starting fine of 6 million euros. :lol:


Iberdrola reckon the cost to put PV up on our roof would be about 9,000 Euros so I don't think we'll be going that way.


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## el romeral (May 8, 2012)

gus-lopez said:


> Solar panels for electric now have to be registered as you now have to pay an amount of tax on the cost of feeding back into the grid using their infrastructure. Failure to register has a starting fine of 6 million euros. :lol:


You couldn't make it up! :roll::roll:

Such a shame as with all the sunshine that most of us are blessed with, if it were more attractive and affordable, we could all make our own electricity. Spain could even become greener as a result.


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

The OP only asked about a panels to heat the water not PV to generate electricity.
I can definitely say it is worth putting a panel for your water heating.

I am surprised though that installing PV appears to be problematical in Spain.
We have had PV installed and it cost us under 4K euros as the government give grants towards them. The excess electricity we generate through the summer goes to our account to be used through the winter.
The only electric bill we will have is the standard charge of 25 euros every 2 months.


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## el romeral (May 8, 2012)

Veronica said:


> The OP only asked about a panels to heat the water not PV to generate electricity.
> I can definitely say it is worth putting a panel for your water heating.
> 
> I am surprised though that installing PV appears to be problematical in Spain.
> ...


And the OP was talking about Spain not Cyprus.


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## Espanada (Jul 22, 2014)

Forgive me if I'm being pedantic, but there are two primary types of solar technology - photovoltaic (PV) - turning solar gain into electricity, and solar thermal, also often called solar domestic hot water (SDHW) - turning solar gain into heat via water transfer.

The OP is asking about SDHW, which is the most effectient and cost effective form of renewable energy. It runs about 40% efficient vs 10-14% for PV. 

The tl/dr Short answer is YES, SDHW is very much is worth your interest. 

The long answer is Yes, and if you really want to get into the details of ROI I can try and help, but that depends on a case by case scenario. For example, what type of water heating are you supplementing? How big is your family? What is your water usage? etc.

Electricity is very expensive in Spain, so if you are supplementing an electric hot water heater and you have high water usage/a large family, you'll likely see a postive ROI. 

The key concept to understand is that with solar you are offsetting your primary usage source (gas/electricity) no replacing it. However, depending on how your build your system and what level of "lux" exists in your life, you can range from 50% offset to near replacement.

We are two with very light water usage. We have a two panel system and are in Asturias (not your most Solar rich Spanish region). We take short showers, most often shower together, and don't mind a 33*C shower. Anything less than 30*C is fairly unpleasant except in summer. However, we get very hot water quite quickly, and as with most SDHW systems, the problem isn't too little hot water, it's too much. 

We've unplugged the electric hot water heater (some systems don't recommend this). In the last year, we've maybe plugged in the HWH a dozen times... max? Very little. And when we do, we just heat the water to 35-40. If it stays plugged in, the electric system will heat until 60*C because of settings/strategies vs legionnaires disease. So, what I do and what I recommend are different. I would recommend keeping your water tank heated to 60*C

What else? If you're really sophisticated and the climate/house build dictates, you can also use your SDHW to offset your radiant heating, but this gets more tricky as you have the most sun when you want the least heat (summer), but if your house is a thermal bridge bonanza like many in Spain, you could heat comfortably provided you don't live in the hot South perhaps.

This is a long ramble, but go for it. Solar domestic hot water should be on just about every home in Spain.


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

el romeral said:


> And the OP was talking about Spain not Cyprus.


Yes I am fully aware of that. |I was simply making a point that it seems very expensive in Spain.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Veronica said:


> Yes I am fully aware of that. |I was simply making a point that it seems very expensive in Spain.


We have a right wing government that is in the pockets of the Electricity companies, (a bit like UK) more interested in their profit margins than either the environment or the financial well-being of the consumers.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> We have a right wing government that is in the pockets of the Electricity companies, (a bit like UK) more interested in their profit margins than either the environment or the financial well-being of the consumers.


Not like the UK at all Baldi.

Here PV panels are encouraged - in Spain they are discouraged. 

Here there are subsidies to put the panels up and you can sell your spare electricity to the grid - in Spain you are taxed.

In some areas around here (usually the less well-to-do ones strangely) nearly all the roofs are covered in PV panels.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

jimenato said:


> Not like the UK at all Baldi.
> 
> Here PV panels are encouraged - in Spain they are discouraged.
> 
> ...


You are showing me a string of council houses with PV panels - says nothing. Since the Uk privatised the gas and electricity companies, they have been raking in profits hand over fist, same as here.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Veronica said:


> The OP only asked about a panels to heat the water not PV to generate electricity.
> I can definitely say it is worth putting a panel for your water heating.
> 
> I am surprised though that installing PV appears to be problematical in Spain.
> ...


Sorry missed the water bit,

Yes spain used to be world leader, feed -in tariffs ,Chinese couldn't supply panels as fast as they were being installed. Then came the crisis & the bearded one cut the assistance ;That put hundreds of companies out of business & all the electricians too. The sudden lack of demand didn't go down well with the chinese who then had to unload panels at low prices & anywhere they could,thus causing problems in all parts of the world.
Then Roger Whittakers brother cut the " guaranteed for 25 years " tariffs !! That bankrupted many ordinary people whom had taken advantage of the guaranteed rates & clubbed together only to now have lost everything.
Not content with these first two disasters he then listened to his mates at the electric companies," Oh woe are us ", complaining that companies & ordinary people who invested in solar power feed in schemes were feeding back into the grid using power lines & infrastructure which they had invested in & which they thought should have a charge on it so that they could all rob the customers of even more money.
So they came up with the " You must register your solar panel installation " law which the bearded **** & his mates even had the temerity to introduce using a "decree" so not even a government debate about it. Being even lazier they couldn't even be bothered to sort out penalties for 'non-compliance' so tacked it on & modified some existing legislation pertaining to industry. That's where you get the nonsensical 6 million euro fine & worse .:lol: Everyone is up in arms about it. 

Even the EU is involved along the lines of contrary to climate legislation ,etc.

It has had knock on effects everywhere. The vast majority of solar panel installations in the UK are now being done by spanish firms using Spanish labour/electricians. 
In 2012 I came across 2 dozen installing a huge site in Umberleigh in Devon. This year 
38 of them In Kent,going from Dover to Ramsgate,& having already installed a huge area of solar were around the corner installing another huge site.

Hopefully he will get his come uppance in a couple of weeks time .


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

jimenato said:


> Not like the UK at all Baldi.
> 
> Here PV panels are encouraged - in Spain they are discouraged.
> 
> ...


In Mid-Devon it is mainly the council houses.
On new builds where they have to also build "starter homes" for the housing association, these are equipped with solar ,etc; & the ones that are actually being purchased by people get nothing . All wrong.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> You are showing me a string of council houses with PV panels - says nothing. Since the Uk privatised the gas and electricity companies, they have been raking in profits hand over fist, same as here.


Nope - nothing like it.

I can buy my electricity and gas from any of literally dozens of competing companies and change between them with ease - not like Spain.

I could get subsidised PV panels fitted and sell excess electricity to the grid - not like Spain.

The gas and electricity companies might well be making profits - something wrong with profits? What does it matter as long as we get cheap and reliable supply?


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> In Mid-Devon it is mainly the council houses.
> On new builds where they have to also build "starter homes" for the housing association, these are equipped with solar ,etc; & the ones that are actually being purchased by people get nothing . All wrong.


I'm in Somerset. Lots of houses of all sorts here with PV. Wouldn't have though many off them were council houses.

Still - nothing like Spain.


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

My son has just bought his first house in County Durham after years of renting. He is in the throes of having PV installed. The deal is for paying for it over 5 years at around what his electric bills are now. Any excess that is generated goes to the grid. After 5 years once his set up is paid for he will get paid for the excess.
So it is not just council houses that have PV.
It seems to me that the UK is at least tying to do something about global warming. 
Unlike Spain


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## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

I live in a rented house without any likelihood of getting panels on the roof, so my thoughts are all hypothetical. 
I imagine that my reaction to "free" hot water would be to use far more of it, so that any financial and environmental benefits would be cancelled out by the water bill. This house has a swimming pool that somehow manages to feel chilly even in the summer. It also has gas central heating that we never use because it is connected to the very large and therefore prohibitively expensive bombonas. With solar panels I would have baths instead of showers, find a way to heat the pool and use the central heating. That would give a nice boost to my standard of living, but I'm not sure it would save the planet.


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## Espanada (Jul 22, 2014)

I don't think that stands up to much reasoning does it Turtles? You're not getting free water with your SDHW system, you're getting 'free' (the system does cost) heat. Unless you really, really suffer with a life of heavily limited water usage because your water is so cold you cannot stand to use it. I doubt you'd see much difference.

Is the sole reason why you don't lavish yourself with multiple baths because you don't want to pay the probably 0.05-0.25 cents increase in hot water costs over a shower? 

I'm sure that any difference would be more than offset by not burning coal/petroleum for your heat either in your house or from the grid.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Turtles said:


> I live in a rented house without any likelihood of getting panels on the roof, so my thoughts are all hypothetical.
> I imagine that my reaction to "free" hot water would be to use far more of it, so that any financial and environmental benefits would be cancelled out by the water bill. This house has a swimming pool that somehow manages to feel chilly even in the summer. It also has gas central heating that we never use because it is connected to the very large and therefore prohibitively expensive bombonas. With solar panels I would have baths instead of showers, find a way to heat the pool and use the central heating. That would give a nice boost to my standard of living, but I'm not sure it would save the planet.


We have a solar panel and only get sufficient heat to make a comfortable shower for ¾ of the year. The rest of the year we heat our water by an instantaneous hot water heater running on gas from a bombona. We do not change our hot water usage habits from one day to the next and our habits are much the same as they were when we lived in UK and had a gas multipoint heater. We use showers as a matter of course and don't even have baths installed. Living economically and with minimal wastage enable us to live in relative comfort.


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## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

Points taken, but it doesn't really matter what I or you individually choose to do. If _millions_ of people no longer have a reason to distinguish between hot and cold then we can expect overall water consumption to rise. 
I'm wondering if the subsidy that makes the small bombonas so cheap can survive the Paris conference. It would be good to improve energy efficiency, but these things don't happen in a vacuum. The knock-on effects in other areas could be large.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Turtles said:


> Points taken, but it doesn't really matter what I or you individually choose to do. If _millions_ of people no longer have a reason to distinguish between hot and cold then we can expect overall water consumption to rise.
> *I'm wondering if the subsidy that makes the small bombonas so cheap can survive the Paris conference. It would be good to improve energy efficiency*, but these things don't happen in a vacuum. The knock-on effects in other areas could be large.


I don't follow you. The small bombonas are fine for heating small amounts of water in an instantaneous water heater and for cooking - both are far more efficient than using electricity (gas has a much quicker response time avoiding waste and there is no hot water tank to be kept hot.)


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## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

The small bombonas are (I believe) heavily subsidised. It wouldn't surprise me if Spain came under pressure to remove that subsidy, put more tax on petrol/diesel, stop being so nasty to solar producers etc.
It should be fairly obvious to the next government that Spain could gain from raising taxes on fuels, booze and **** and cutting them on jobs and property transactions. I'm sure they'll claim that foreigners are forcing them to do the former, while it is their choice to do the latter.


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## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

I'm constantly surprised that people who live in Spain expect things to be the same as their home country. Has it never occurred that they have to dispose of sewerage somewhere? If you live near the coast you will have seen the collection silos conveniently located near the sea - I wonder why. There's a great rubbish collection service and recycling until you see the containers whatever their colour being tipped into the same lorry and realise that the rubbish is going into a big hole in the ground. I wonder has anyone (apart from the cities) wondered where their rubbish goes??


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Calas felices said:


> I'm constantly surprised that people who live in Spain expect things to be the same as their home country. Has it never occurred that they have to dispose of sewerage somewhere? If you live near the coast you will have seen the collection silos conveniently located near the sea - I wonder why. There's a great rubbish collection service and recycling until you see the containers whatever their colour being tipped into the same lorry and realise that the rubbish is going into a big hole in the ground. I wonder has anyone (apart from the cities) wondered where their rubbish goes??


In many cases, the lorry has separate compartments to take the different types of recycling.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Calas felices said:


> I'm constantly surprised that people who live in Spain expect things to be the same as their home country. Has it never occurred that they have to dispose of sewerage somewhere? If you live near the coast you will have seen the collection silos conveniently located near the sea - I wonder why. There's a great rubbish collection service and recycling until you see the containers whatever their colour being tipped into the same lorry and realise that the rubbish is going into a big hole in the ground. I wonder has anyone (apart from the cities) wondered where their rubbish goes??


Are you talking about Spain or somewhere else?:confused2:


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## chilton (Sep 6, 2016)

snikpoh said:


> Yes they work - you only have to look at the many solar farms in Spain.
> 
> However, are they a cost-effective alternative to being on the grid - in my opinion no.
> 
> ...


Hi, I have to consider what option is better, ph.solar system INDEPENDENT with a batteries stack or ph. solar system connected to a grid but without batteries. The second option, obviously much cheaper but if there is no electricity then all in a house stopped working, even w.solar panels not in use. If you or somebody has relevant experience pls let us know. Thanks in advance. William


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## chilton (Sep 6, 2016)

snikpoh said:


> Yes they work - you only have to look at the many solar farms in Spain.
> 
> However, are they a cost-effective alternative to being on the grid - in my opinion no.
> 
> ...


Hi, I have to consider what option is better, ph.solar system INDEPENDENT with a batteries stack or ph. solar system connected to a grid but without batteries. The second option, obviously much cheaper but if there is no electricity then all in a house stopped working, even w.solar panels not in use. If you or somebody has relevant experience pls let us know. Thanks in advance. William


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## chilton (Sep 6, 2016)

*Ph.Solar energy, need an advise*

I have to consider what option is better, ph.solar system INDEPENDENT with a batteries stack or ph. solar system connected to a grid but without batteries. 
The second option, obviously much cheaper but if there is no electricity then all in a house stopped working, even w.solar panels not in use. 

If you or somebody has relevant experience pls let us know. 
Thanks in advance. 
William


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