# Is this offensive?



## Frankie M (Jan 22, 2008)

Hello,

I have a question about cultural differences.

I own a holiday rental house in France and received an email enquiry that included the sentence "We are a white South African family".

I found this very offensive, the implication to me being, "don't worry, we are not black!"

Am I right to read it in this way, or is it normal in South Africa for people to describe themselves as 'white South African' or 'black South African'?

Thanks for any input you can give me.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Frankie M said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have a question about cultural differences.
> 
> ...


Isn't it just like someone describing themselves as an African American or native american.

Personally these things generally tend to go over my head as I have no racist feelings at all but I suppose the enquirer feels the need to make you aware of this because there are many people of course who _are_ racist.

Did you ask him why?


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## synthia (Apr 18, 2007)

Apartheid only ended about fifteen years ago, so race is going to be much more on the minds of people there than it might be otherwise. Or maybe they read about the riots in the Paris suburbs...


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## Frankie M (Jan 22, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> Isn't it just like someone describing themselves as an African American or native american.


If I had an enquiry saying "We are an African American family" I would think it really odd, but not so offensive, I suppose because black people in the US have historically been the oppressed ones. If it said "We are a white American family" I would take it as racist. Wouldn't you?



> Did you ask him why?


I did ask why they thought it was necessary to tell me they were white, but no reply yet.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Frankie M said:


> If I had an enquiry saying "We are an African American family" I would think it really odd, but not so offensive, I suppose because black people in the US have historically been the oppressed ones. If it said "We are a white American family" I would take it as racist. Wouldn't you?
> 
> 
> I did ask why they thought it was necessary to tell me they were white, but no reply yet.


As i said, I have no feelings of racism to anyone, but ...... why is someone saying they are a_ black_ american not racist, and someone saying they are a _white_ South African racist?
Surely it works both ways. I'm an American, or I'm South African should suffice ..................................................in an ideal world


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## ricardo blue (Jun 6, 2007)

Frankie M said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have a question about cultural differences.
> 
> ...


Frankie,

I personally think it was useful information they gave you. Some time ago my great uncle Jack and his friend escaped from being eaten alive by a tribe from Meseru. As they sat amongsts the onions and local herbs, beneath a fire of charcoal, my Uncle Jack whipped out his glass eye and held it up to the stars.
Well this made the tribe pannick as they had never seen a glass eye before. The chief was so taken in by it all that he actually made my Uncle Jack their Shamen.

Unfortunately for his friend....they ate him! But I suppose thats just in their nature?

Hope this helps..

Ricardo


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## Frankie M (Jan 22, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> why is someone saying they are a_ black_ american not racist, and someone saying they are a _white_ South African racist?


My question was to do with how people talk about themselves in South Africa - is it normal to say you are white South African instead of just South African. Because if it is no more normal to do that than in say the UK, there is a clear implication: "don't worry, we are not black!"

If it is normal for a South African to describe themselves in this way, then the enquiry was completely innocent of any racist undertone.

Someone saying they are a black American may or may not have its origin in racist intent, but it would alarm me less, as stated above, because it comes from the oppressed, not the oppressor.


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## ricardo blue (Jun 6, 2007)

Frankie M said:


> My question was to do with how people talk about themselves in South Africa - is it normal to say you are white South African instead of just South African. Because if it is no more normal to do that than in say the UK, there is a clear implication: "don't worry, we are not black!"
> 
> If it is normal for a South African to describe themselves in this way, then the enquiry was completely innocent of any racist undertone.
> 
> Someone saying they are a black American may or may not have its origin in racist intent, but it would alarm me less, as stated above, because it comes from the oppressed, not the oppressor.


Frankie..

In all seriousness.. I believe you will never be happy until you yourself becomes the oppressed one!
If you become neurotic over someone saying they are white, I'd hate to think how you would have felt if he had said he was white, working class and from Liverpool.
I reckon you would have moved to Bridgenorth, Swansea


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## ricardo blue (Jun 6, 2007)

ricardo blue said:


> Frankie..
> 
> In all seriousness.. I believe you will never be happy until you yourself becomes the oppressed one!
> If you become neurotic over someone saying they are white, I'd hate to think how you would have felt if he had said he was white, working class and from Liverpool.
> I reckon you would have moved to Bridgenorth, Swansea


with regards to my mentioning of Bridgenorth, Swansea

If there are any would be suiciders out there.....don't do it!
Go and find someone you can talk to,......what appears terrible today will in 3 months time have become just a distant memory.
I do understand how living in Bridgenorth could make you want to kill yourself, I too would struggle with the over-whelming desire to do away with myself if unfortunately faced with living live there, but at the end of the day it's just not cricket!


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## cozwemust (Jan 17, 2008)

lofl. yeah exactly. ive just been sa and yeah id have probably said that too


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## cozwemust (Jan 17, 2008)

ricardo ..liverpool is the european capital of culture 2008. it is the only place that i missed when i went abroad last time. its people are amazing, so friendly and welcoming, the vibe and atmosphere and the unity is like no other place on earth. u clearly havnt been there i can see that from ur ignorance. oh and of course it has the best football club in the world


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## fliplap (Feb 6, 2008)

Frankie M said:


> My question was to do with how people talk about themselves in South Africa - is it normal to say you are white South African instead of just South African. Because if it is no more normal to do that than in say the UK, there is a clear implication: "don't worry, we are not black!"
> 
> If it is normal for a South African to describe themselves in this way, then the enquiry was completely innocent of any racist undertone.
> 
> Someone saying they are a black American may or may not have its origin in racist intent, but it would alarm me less, as stated above, because it comes from the oppressed, not the oppressor.


Hmm, doesn't look like anyone answered your question.

I wouldn't say its offensive. I live in Namibia, just north of South Africa, and its rather common for people here to describe themselves as white, black, colored (doesn't mean black).


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## ricardo blue (Jun 6, 2007)

cozwemust said:


> ricardo ..liverpool is the european capital of culture 2008. it is the only place that i missed when i went abroad last time. its people are amazing, so friendly and welcoming, the vibe and atmosphere and the unity is like no other place on earth. u clearly havnt been there i can see that from ur ignorance. oh and of course it has the best football club in the world


European capital of culture......lol...... my ignorance.....double lol.....Liverpool fc................ stop it you're killing me! 

The unity is like no other place on earth.......ha ha ha ha ha.....my sides are splitting....ha ha ha ha ha...

It's obviously you my friend who has never been there.....or actually seen liverpool play!

It should be the European capital of the job seekers and burglars club!


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Maybe we could get back on subject ....... If you feel the need to discuss Liverpool then start a thread in GB


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## ricardo blue (Jun 6, 2007)

Stravinsky said:


> Maybe we could get back on subject ....... If you feel the need to discuss Liverpool then start a thread in GB


Once again I have to agree with you strav..

Now lets get back to the all important discussion on "is it racist for a south african to mention his white".......lol


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## Polony (Oct 16, 2008)

ricardo blue said:


> Once again I have to agree with you strav..
> 
> Now lets get back to the all important discussion on "is it racist for a south african to mention his white".......lol


And that is just the reason why i moved my whole family out of South Africa--I grew up my whole life been known as a Coloured female--in sport you are known as the coloured girl. I was totally sick of been branded by my colour. I wish SA would move away from this but it will take years and years to forget about colour--America is still going through that.. SAfrica has just been out of apartheid now for 15/16 yrs and it is a time in my life that I want to forget as a coloured female. I feel how I raped victim feels, raped of my future and life. and the opportunities I could have been given as a human being but my colour stopped all that, aint it. I am living now in the Uk and not once was I ever referred to as a coloured or black or half cast. I am treated just as any other persons of colour are treated and so are my children. They have friends of all colours and they dont even know it. They see thru the colour but NO not in SA, there has been so much sorrow and hurt regarding colour (Soweto rising) and it will take a century to correct it.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Polony said:


> I am living now in the Uk and not once was I ever referred to as a coloured or black or half cast. I am treated just as any other persons of colour are treated and so are my children. They have friends of all colours and they dont even know it.


Well I am glad to hear that ...... any kind of racism is unacceptable and I can't begin to imagine what it would be like living in a country where I was referred to as "******" and treated as a second class citizen.


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## Polony (Oct 16, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> Well I am glad to hear that ...... any kind of racism is unacceptable and I can't begin to imagine what it would be like living in a country where I was referred to as "******" and treated as a second class citizen.


Believe me Stravinsky, that is something you would not want to experience. . I am just one person there are millions of South africans that went through what I have and that is why when Mandela came out of prison and said "Lets Forgive and move forward together", I think those words were the most important words that i remember in my life . It is only through forgiveness that I can go forwards in life, for my childrens sake as well, but i shall never forget, never ever. Just an example of one of the memories I would like to forget but still nags at the back of my mind. I was a little 8 yr old girl. My mom and I went to town. Now in apartheid there were loads of things reserved for "whites only", beaches, restuarants, toilets, jobs reservation etc--I needed to use the toilet and my mom rushed me to the nearest one. Only to be stopped by the door and told by this big size white bolk" sorry, you cant' go in, read the sign, whites only". My mom pleaded with him saying my daughter really needs to use the toilet". There I was holding every breathe trying to hold as long as possible. The man refused my mom entry and my mother ran around looking for a toilet, the nearest one for "blacks" was about 400m from where we were, so I wet myself right there in the street infront of everyone. The embarassment I felt will haunt me for days. My mom took me to the nearest shop and explain to the lady what happened and this generous lady let me use the shop toilet (which was for staff) to clean up. I will never forget that--because of our colour we were not allowed to use the toilet--


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Hey Polony,I absolutely agree, I personally feel that Malan, Verwoerd, Vorster,van den Bergh et al should be dug up,their bones crushed and the powder set to the wind.
And I am a white Afrikaner.
Looking at your going back,and your kids going to Varsity, my understanding of the selection process is as follows:
There are 100 seats available for a particular Course.
The SA Demographics dictate.
79 of the positions on the Course will go to the top 79 Black Pupils who have applied
9 positions will go to the top White applicants.
8 positions will go to the Top Coloured applicants.
3 positions will go to the top Indian and Chinese applicants
1 position will go to a Black student who has not qualified but is deemed to be worthy.

If your children wish to study Medicine,Law, B.Com,B.Sc, and are not in the top 8% of their Matric Year Nationally, they will have to study Correspondence Course till the 2nd or 3rd year.
Is that the same on Mud island?


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

What about - Nice Christian family........etc - Hey who knows, perhaps they would be more comfortable to be with people who like who they are. Who cares as we all have our views based on our experiences. 

DON'T read to much into it.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Other Countries dont understand that race is a box that has to be filled in on any SA Document or application, as much now as previous.
Secondly,because of the actions of a few, Black tenants are not always seen as desirable.
I thought that was a SA thing but have found the same perception here in Ireland.
When we first arrived,landlords who heard we were from SA always wanted to meet us first.
But then the ANC did spend a lot of time in Ireland during the "struggle"
Mac Maharaj still owes his electricity money ,I gather.


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## Polony (Oct 16, 2008)

Daxk said:


> Other Countries dont understand that race is a box that has to be filled in on any SA Document or application, as much now as previous.
> Secondly,because of the actions of a few, Black tenants are not always seen as desirable.
> I thought that was a SA thing but have found the same perception here in Ireland.
> When we first arrived,landlords who heard we were from SA always wanted to meet us first.
> ...


So very true Daxk--it is kind of a joke but on my families id documents (the old ones) my sister and mom was known as white Safrican as they were both very fair in complexion & straight hair, I was stated as Cape coloured (also quite fair but very curly hair , my brother cape coloured (looks like the singer maxwell) and my beloved sister, asain,because she was dark skinned with straight black hair--ludicrous I tell you, how did they decide these things--


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Polony said:


> So very true Daxk--it is kind of a joke but on my families id documents (the old ones) my sister and mom was known as white Safrican as they were both very fair in complexion & straight hair, I was stated as Cape coloured (also quite fair but very curly hair , my brother cape coloured (looks like the singer maxwell) and my beloved sister, asain,because she was dark skinned with straight black hair--ludicrous I tell you, how did they decide these things--


Its just how it is.......


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## Martinw (Jan 2, 2009)

Frankie M said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have a question about cultural differences.
> 
> ...


I am not sure if you are French, but when you as a caucasion european person live in SA and blacks walk around at night, break into your house, rape your wife and daughter while making you watch and then torture you, as if the rape wa not enough, can you blame someone for calling themslves white South Africans. I left SA to move to AUS and can not believe that the world does not choose to see the violent gruesome crimes blacks are inflicting on innocent white people.Here all you want is to go to work, make a contribution, raise your children as well as you can, you dont harm anyone, but then blacks come and do this to you in your own home. I sure as hell hope you find that offensive instead of a person calling himself a white South African.
Maybe you should look up this website and get some knowledge of what is oing on there.

http://dienuwesuidafrika.blogspot.com/2006/08/its-not-crime-its-war.htmlery

Do you know how it feels to go to bed every night fearing for your life. Prob not, because the whole world still feels sorry for the "poor old blacks"


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