# Too much land!



## MikeandEmilyD

Hi
We have seen properties that we like but a lot of them come with far too much land. One of them has 26000 square metres! Any ideas from anyone as to what might be done with it or any ways of making money from it? We would not want to be spending our time looking after it.


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## Bevdeforges

Depends a bit on how the property is "zoned" - you need to ascertain if the property being sold consists of a single parcel (in which case the whole thing is assigned the same category) or if there are multiple parcels involved and what the category is for the various bits of the property. For that you need to take a look at the cadastre (official land registration) - which is generally available online in some form. Or you can visit the mairie to view their physical maps of the various areas of the town. With a really large piece of property like that, some part of the land may be "zoned" as agricultural, in which case that portion won't be buildable other than (perhaps) for small shelters for animals housed on the land, or possibly a "hangar" for storing agricultural vehicles and tools.


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## BackinFrance

I agree with Bev. There may be all sorts of rights of way, not to mention hunting. Even if you check the cadastral map, there is always the possibility that something hasn't been entered or there could be a dispute of some sort, so at some point you need to get the notaire to do a thorough check.


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## MikeandEmilyD

Bevdeforges said:


> Depends a bit on how the property is "zoned" - you need to ascertain if the property being sold consists of a single parcel (in which case the whole thing is assigned the same category) or if there are multiple parcels involved and what the category is for the various bits of the property. For that you need to take a look at the cadastre (official land registration) - which is generally available online in some form. Or you can visit the mairie to view their physical maps of the various areas of the town. With a really large piece of property like that, some part of the land may be "zoned" as agricultural, in which case that portion won't be buildable other than (perhaps) for small shelters for animals housed on the land, or possibly a "hangar" for storing agricultural vehicles and tools.


Thanks you


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## MikeandEmilyD

BackinFrance said:


> I agree with Bev. There may be all sorts of rights of way, not to mention hunting. Even if you check the cadastral map, there is always the possibility that something hasn't been entered or there could be a dispute of some sort, so at some point you need to get the notaire to do a thorough check.


will do. Thanks


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## DrChips

Salut Mike et Emily

There is another possible trap or hurdle with large land acquisition - SAFER - Sociétés d’Aménagement Foncier et d’Etablissement Rural (Societies of Land Development and Rural Establishment !!

Detail and scary bits here:








Actualités fiscales, comptables, et patrimoniales : Cabinet Roche & Cie, Expert-comptable à Lyon


Retrouvez toutes les actualités comptables, fiscales et patrimoniales du Cabinet Roche & Cie, nos newsletters et notes d'informations.




www.cabinet-roche.com





All sorts may 'crop' up and unless you do extreme due diligence and get real advice form the Notaire (usually the one acting for seller), you may find the bargain is not quite so!!

If all is good a proposal to appease the local SAFER and farmers may be to find out if they rent any of it or would like to.

Best of luck and aim a little lower to avoid these hidden problems.


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## MikeandEmilyD

DrChips said:


> Salut Mike et Emily
> 
> There is another possible trap or hurdle with large land acquisition - SAFER - Sociétés d’Aménagement Foncier et d’Etablissement Rural (Societies of Land Development and Rural Establishment !!
> 
> Detail and scary bits here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actualités fiscales, comptables, et patrimoniales : Cabinet Roche & Cie, Expert-comptable à Lyon
> 
> 
> Retrouvez toutes les actualités comptables, fiscales et patrimoniales du Cabinet Roche & Cie, nos newsletters et notes d'informations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cabinet-roche.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All sorts may 'crop' up and unless you do extreme due diligence and get real advice form the Notaire (usually the one acting for seller), you may find the bargain is not quite so!!
> 
> If all is good a proposal to appease the local SAFER and farmers may be to find out if they rent any of it or would like to.
> 
> Best of luck and aim a little lower to avoid these hidden problems.


Thanks DrChips. I will have a look


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## ccm47

By my calculations 26000sq.metres is about 6 acres which will be pretty difficult to attract any farmers attention (way too small) but your purchase will be scrutinised by SAFER and can only go ahead 2 months after they have had notification and not declared a wish to purchase. It is highly unlikely that there will be in the least bit interested.
If you go ahead you could:
Find yourself buying your own tractor to ensure the grass gets cut occasionally. The old Somecas start at around 2.5k. You also need a cutting deck and probably a trailer. Do not rely on Philippe down the road:, you will be at the back of his cutting list at haymaking time, and he has a nasty habit of having equipment break down, injuring himself or retiring and leaving you in the lurch. Hay is often surplus to local requirements and gets left out to rot or burnt.

Find yourself hiring a digger on a regular basis to keep non-roadside ditches clear. The community will do the roadside ones.

If the land is already grass then somebody may be interested in grazing it. You will have to have it securely fenced and with access to a regular water supply, shelter and troughs. Think no more than 3 horses, partly because good land management rules suggest 1 per hectare and partly because having 4 or more makes you a professional by French standards thereby subjecting you to more French bureaucracy. Sheep/goats and cattle tend to be inside here during the winter so would give you very little income for more than a few months. Rates for fields vary, of course but should cover their taxe foncière costs but the return on your time and investment may be negligible.

If you are doing the land maintenance yourself maybe you could open as a camping car aire. Location is key to its success but generally access to water, a chemical loo disposal point and a tidy area to park in are all that's needed. Each camping car would bring in €10-€12 a night with most stopping only a couple of nights. Look at France Passion for ideas.

Plant trees , these do need maintenance each year but can produce a cash crop. Oak, chestnuts and acacia are popular in plantations.

Grow fruit, vines or olives. At least you could be self-sufficient.

If the land has been regularly ploughed, try and let it for maize or sunflower planting. Be aware that maize can severely limit your views once up to its full height of around 1.8m. Maize is also watered constantly at certain stages in its growth, which needs hoses being automatically wound in and out, the machines used to do this are not silent.

Personally if I had no great need for land (but with 3 horses I do) I would add the property you are looking at to my "nice house, shame about the location list" and walk away but it could be a challenge to consider.


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## ARPC

Rent it out for archery competitions?


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## MikeandEmilyD

Hi and thanks for the in depth reply. I'm seriously thinking, as I've always been a city/town dweller it is best eft alone. A shame because the house is lovely. However the land situation is probably beyond my abilities to manage.


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## Crabtree

Tell the estate agent what sort of a garden you want and the type of house you are interested in and be specific and tell the agent if they are showing you things you do not want Yes it is nice to have a reasonable garden as it keeps up an interest and helps with physical fitness but so often expats get carried away with the amount of land they can get and end up with far more than they can manage(and then the friendly farmer comes along looks after the land and ....)
so good on you Mike and Emily for realising this.
Very often agents will show newby expats all their rubbish that has been on their books since 1900 and frozen to death so again do not be afraid to be specific as to your needs
Also have you pitched your budget too high? perhaps looking at something cheaper will find the ideal place


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## Befuddled

Good advice, once you have found an agent that actually listens.


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## MikeandEmilyD

Crabtree said:


> Tell the estate agent what sort of a garden you want and the type of house you are interested in and be specific and tell the agent if they are showing you things you do not want Yes it is nice to have a reasonable garden as it keeps up an interest and helps with physical fitness but so often expats get carried away with the amount of land they can get and end up with far more than they can manage(and then the friendly farmer comes along looks after the land and ....)
> so good on you Mike and Emily for realising this.
> Very often agents will show newby expats all their rubbish that has been on their books since 1900 and frozen to death so again do not be afraid to be specific as to your needs
> Also have you pitched your budget too high? perhaps looking at something cheaper will find the ideal place


Hi and many thanks


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## Franco-Belgian Brit

When we owned a holiday home, we had a 1000sm garden but attached was 5000sm of land. We left it alone and a neighbouring farmer would cut it once a year to use the grass for his cattle. It was a neat arrangement and something I would look at in the future.


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## Befuddled

I would advise extreme caution with respect to letting a farmer look after your unwante acreage. I copied the text below from an expat discussion many years ago.
*
"If you let a farmer use your land you may well be open to him claiming you've effectively established un Bail Rural - it depends how long he's had use of it, and how much if anything he's paid for it (whether in cash or kind). It's up to him to prove that he's made regular payments - that can be showing receipts, or simply coming up with witnesses who'll swear they've seen the rent being handed over. If a Bail has been established by default it normally lasts 9 years and is automatically renewed, and that can cause all sorts of problems, especially if you decide to sell your property - the farmer will have automatic first right to buy the bits of land he's been using, or will still have the rights to use it after the sale (effectively a sitting tenant). He also gains all sorts of rights over what else he can do with the land - he may have the right to fell your trees, for example! You will have difficulty backing out of a Bail once established - unless you want to reclaim the land for the use of your children, but you'll have to prove they're actually going to use it for agriculture."*


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## Franco-Belgian Brit

Befuddled said:


> I would advise extreme caution with respect to letting a farmer look after your unwante acreage. I copied the text below from an expat discussion many years ago.
> 
> *"If you let a farmer use your land you may well be open to him claiming you've effectively established un Bail Rural - it depends how long he's had use of it, and how much if anything he's paid for it (whether in cash or kind). It's up to him to prove that he's made regular payments - that can be showing receipts, or simply coming up with witnesses who'll swear they've seen the rent being handed over. If a Bail has been established by default it normally lasts 9 years and is automatically renewed, and that can cause all sorts of problems, especially if you decide to sell your property - the farmer will have automatic first right to buy the bits of land he's been using, or will still have the rights to use it after the sale (effectively a sitting tenant). He also gains all sorts of rights over what else he can do with the land - he may have the right to fell your trees, for example! You will have difficulty backing out of a Bail once established - unless you want to reclaim the land for the use of your children, but you'll have to prove they're actually going to use it for agriculture."*


He wasn't using the land. We needed it cutting and he offered to do it in return for the grass. We sold the land years later as it was constructible.


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## Crabtree

Quite often these arrangements work out quite well with a benefit for both sides However sometimes it goes horribly wrong and ends in the farmer claiming the land and court cases follow so you would need to set the parameters very tightly or get notarial advice


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## MikeandEmilyD

Befuddled said:


> I would advise extreme caution with respect to letting a farmer look after your unwante acreage. I copied the text below from an expat discussion many years ago.
> 
> *"If you let a farmer use your land you may well be open to him claiming you've effectively established un Bail Rural - it depends how long he's had use of it, and how much if anything he's paid for it (whether in cash or kind). It's up to him to prove that he's made regular payments - that can be showing receipts, or simply coming up with witnesses who'll swear they've seen the rent being handed over. If a Bail has been established by default it normally lasts 9 years and is automatically renewed, and that can cause all sorts of problems, especially if you decide to sell your property - the farmer will have automatic first right to buy the bits of land he's been using, or will still have the rights to use it after the sale (effectively a sitting tenant). He also gains all sorts of rights over what else he can do with the land - he may have the right to fell your trees, for example! You will have difficulty backing out of a Bail once established - unless you want to reclaim the land for the use of your children, but you'll have to prove they're actually going to use it for agriculture."*


Hi. This all sounds like it could be a bit of a pain but I do see the point of the other post. I suppose it comes down to trust and relationship with the farmer


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## MikeandEmilyD

Franco-Belgian Brit said:


> He wasn't using the land. We needed it cutting and he offered to do it in return for the grass. We sold the land years later as it was constructible.


Hi and thanks.I suppose it comes down to trust and relationship with the farmer


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## MikeandEmilyD

Crabtree said:


> Quite often these arrangements work out quite well with a benefit for both sides However sometimes it goes horribly wrong and ends in the farmer claiming the land and court cases follow so you would need to set the parameters very tightly or get notarial advice


Hi and thanks. I will take those wise words in to consideration. Many thanks


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## Befuddled

"Trust and relationship with the farmer" in addition to a written agreement in French. But hey ho.


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## Bevdeforges

MikeandEmilyD said:


> Hi and thanks.I suppose it comes down to trust and relationship with the farmer


We live in a vaguely "farming area" even up here in Ile de France - and my husband inherited a few parcels of farmland in the North of France that is rented out to farmers resident in the area. Farmers can be really great salt-of-the-earth types, or they can also be sneaky connivers who take great pride in sticking it to a foreigner who has no clue about the laws that protect farming, farmers and farm lands. 

Proper renting of farmland parcels involves the farmer sharing the revenues from whatever is being farmed on the parcel with the owner. The farmer has to report at the end of each year to the owner regarding the crop, the yield and the price obtained for the crop. If they want to change the crop, they need permission from the owner. They also have to allocate any benefits received (like for a drought, flood, or other "disaster") between themselves and the owner - and all that then has to be reported on the owner's income tax declaration. It's not all that difficult to handle (I do the farm payments for my husband on our French taxes) but in his case, the amounts are fairly trivial - less that 300 or 400€ a year - so even if I made some mistakes chances are the Fisc wouldn't worry too much about it. 

But yeah, I would talk to a notaire, be sure to note what the land is zoned for and have a standard contract drawn up if you are considering something like that. My husband's family has lived in the area for generations and his mother and her family are fairly well known in the area. Coming in as a foreigner, you're a bit more vulnerable so be sure to do your homework if you're considering this.


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## SPGW

I may have missed how the land is categorised in the plan cadastral: sounds like a good candidate for rewilding, planting, letting nature have its way ( and making it a reserve de chasse, or better, a protected area - see ASPAS - so you and wildlife can benefit from it without fear of gunshot).


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## SPGW

BackinFrance said:


> There may be all sorts of rights of way, not to mention hunting.


Agreed: the notaire’s job in the transaction is to clarify what rights/ “servitudes” there are on the land - may be rights of way, neighbours’ access ( eg historic, to a well…). But hunting requires explicit agreement of the owner. If things go ahead, don’t be intimidated by the hunting fraternity. It’s your choice as owner ( speaking from experience).


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## ccm47

Rewilding is alright in theory but not so good in practise for a small area such as 6 acres if it's anywhere near dwellings. Firstly the neighbours will want some kind of well maintained zone sanitaire between the wild area and their properties to discourage snakes, rats, coypu and flying insects, visiting them. Deer, foxes and wild boar will also arrive if the property is not correctly fenced, thereby decreasing one's popularity with the neighbours as they regard such animals as vermin who should be shot on sight.
In addition Asian hornets love such an area to nest in. All my OH did was to drive past such a nest on a tractor with no cab, he got 29 stings in that time despite wearing a sun hat, glasses and a long sleeved shirt and was very lucky not to require hospitalisation.
Rewilding on commecial farms is another matter as the farmer undertakes maintenance on his surrounding hectares routinely, thereby leaving oases for birds and small mammals to develop.


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## Bevdeforges

Don't know how the rules and laws may vary from one region in France to the next, but we live basically in the middle of a bunch of forest lands. Much of it is owned by the town, but when I bought the "agricultural" plot next to the house (ultimately for the donkeys) there was a separate plot of 700 m2 of woodland included in a separate plot up behind the house. Basically, I have no rights to restrict hunting on the woodland patch and cannot fence it in because it is part of the larger hunting terrain. We do have deer who turn up from time to time and one year we had a sounder of sanglier (wild boars) invade the donkey yard several nights in a row in search of food. Fortunately, they were looking for chestnuts and found a much better source next door and in the nearby woods. 

It's actually kind of nice having such close contact with "nature" here in what is essentially a suburb of Paris. But as more of the land in the area has been developed, our contact with nature (at least the animal kind) have been more rare over time.


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## MikeandEmilyD

Right that's decided. I'm buying an apartment and living in the centre of a city😄


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## Crabtree

Then you will have the neighbours upstairs who practice who Breton clog Dancing at 3 in the morning


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## Bevdeforges

MikeandEmilyD said:


> Right that's decided. I'm buying an apartment and living in the centre of a city😄


That might not be a bad idea - except that I'd consider *renting* an apartment or house at first. There's lots of this sort of "strange stuff" you learn about when you start actually living here that may change where and how you want to live in France.


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## MikeandEmilyD

Crabtree said:


> Then you will have the neighbours upstairs who practice who Breton clog Dancing at 3 in the morning


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## MikeandEmilyD

Bevdeforges said:


> That might not be a bad idea - except that I'd consider *renting* an apartment or house at first. There's lots of this sort of "strange stuff" you learn about when you start actually living here that may change where and how you want to live in France.


Hi Bev. Yes we are intending to rent for 6 months while we have a good look around.


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## Bevdeforges

MikeandEmilyD said:


> Hi Bev. Yes we are intending to rent for 6 months while we have a good look around.


I'd plan on a good year rental at first. There is a certain amount of administrative hassle simply connected to the "immigration process" and starting to learn about the area and the "strange" rules and regulations here. Then, once you have found a place that suits you, the purchase process (starting with you having an offer accepted) takes a bare minimum of 3 months, and often more. You really don't want to get rushed into buying anything in France. Also you need to expect a certain period of time to allow for any alterations you want to make to your new place before you move in - even if only to tear down the ugly wallpaper and repaint, or replace long outworn carpeting or other flooring.


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## suein56

MikeandEmilyD said:


> Hi Bev. Yes we are intending to rent for 6 months while we have a good look around.


Our intended year of renting turned out to be a lot longer due to circumstances ..


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## boilerman

suein56 said:


> Our intended year of renting turned out to be a lot longer due to circumstances ..


Never mind that its a big country


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