# The Spanish brain drain...



## Guest (May 22, 2011)

It's started and it's tough to stop. Educated/skilled worker have to leave Spain for work...This has been a ongoing issue in Colombia for fifty plus years...once it starts it is difficult to stop...for anyone that wondered how WWII ended up, the Germans in fact did win.

BBC News - Spain's unemployed rush to fill jobs in Germany


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2011)

Here's an opinion piece from _El País._ My apologies to those who don't read Spanish, but it's an interested article: 
Las ilusiones perdidas · ELPAÍS.com

OH and I were talking about this last night.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

folklore said:


> It's started and it's tough to stop. Educated/skilled worker have to leave Spain for work...This has been a ongoing issue in Colombia for fifty plus years...once it starts it is difficult to stop...for anyone that wondered how WWII ended up, the Germans in fact did win.
> 
> BBC News - Spain's unemployed rush to fill jobs in Germany


unfortunately it's not 'new' news 

if you have a look at the 'Economic & Unemployment' sticky you'll see that we were discussing this at least as long ago as April


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

People have been emigrating for thousands of years, why all the fuss now?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Hepa said:


> People have been emigrating for thousands of years, why all the fuss now?


you have a point

I suppose in a way we should be glad the BBC is reporting it - at least we might be believed now when we say how bad things are here


some Brits unfortunately don't believe anything unless it comes from the UK, and especially the BBC 

would you believe that earlier this week when we were on orange alert for bad weather, the schools were shut for safety sake, we had torrential rain & the streets were flooded etc. etc.......................

someone on a local FB group contacted an old friend who works for the weather dept at the BBC to get 'the real story' :confused2:


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

The population of my pueblo fell from 12,000 to 5,600 between 1970 and 2010 because of economic migration. There is no work for young people other than on the land or in the family business. 

This helps explain why they are so welcoming towards incomers like us who buy and restore old empty houses and spend money with local shops and tradesmen.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Hepa said:


> People have been emigrating for thousands of years, why all the fuss now?


Hepa I don't think there is any more fuss now than in previous times when this has occurred. As with all such major abrupt emigrations it will result in pain and suffering. 

Halydia that article sums it up so well "Regresarán en pocos meses - It will only be a few months". You can sense the tears held back by the mother who knows that is not true


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Hepa said:


> People have been emigrating for thousands of years, why all the fuss now?


Because it's a "brain drain". The usual candidates for immigration for work purposes are the underskilled (labourers, farm workers, factory workers).
At this point in time it's engineers, doctors, vets, scientists who are leaving. In many cases people trained, in part at least, with public funds.
A waste of talent, time and money for Spain


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> you have a point
> 
> i suppose in a way we should be glad the bbc is reporting it - at least we might be believed now when we say how bad things are here
> 
> ...


:d:d
***


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2011)

Look at the date on the BBC article, folks. *February* 2011.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

halydia said:


> Look at the date on the BBC article, folks. *February* 2011.


lol I DID say it was old news


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Because it's a "brain drain". The usual candidates for immigration for work purposes are the underskilled (labourers, farm workers, factory workers).
> At this point in time it's engineers, doctors, vets, scientists who are leaving. In many cases people trained, in part at least, with public funds.
> A waste of talent, time and money for Spain


That works both ways, several of the specialist doctors here are from and have been trained in Cuba. Most of the construction industry workers are from Venezuela so are many of the chefs, waitresses, and waiters, taxi drivers from Germany, one of the port workers was a Captain in the East German army. I have often wondered why the locals do not fill these jobs. Cannot get an answer though...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Hepa said:


> That works both ways, several of the specialist doctors here are from and have been trained in Cuba. Most of the construction industry workers are from Venezuela so are many of the chefs, waitresses, and waiters, taxi drivers from Germany, one of the port workers was a Captain in the East German army. I have often wondered why the locals do not fill these jobs. Cannot get an answer though...


The blue bit is saying the same as I was saying. Immigration, if looking for work in order to better your life, is usually manual or low paid. The doctors? I guess the Canaries have long had links to South America.


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## JulyB (Jul 18, 2011)

Where is everyone going? Germany? Australia? Where is there that isn't heading the same way as Spain? Anyone know?

By the way, is this subject back in the news because 'Fuga de cerebros dos' (AKA the Spanish 'American Pie' rip-off, now back and with added Hasslehoff - just kill me now) is in cinemas?


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Germany.
Talking to someone yesterday who was telling me that the Germans still have all the old Deuthmarks from when they changed to the euro ! Wouldn't take them long to swop back !


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

JulyB said:


> Where is everyone going? Germany? Australia? Where is there that isn't heading the same way as Spain? Anyone know?


My Spainish family and friends so far: UK 1, Germany 1, Sweden 2 - all for jobs


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Australia is a booming country, my friends son left some time ago and has started his own business. I was talking to two customs officers last week, they left Venezuela for here and are in work.


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## jeremyinspain (Dec 3, 2011)

Today's Independent is running a front-page story that the UK needs new immigrants to boost the economy. I think this is called irony...


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jeremyinspain said:


> Today's Independent is running a front-page story that the UK needs new immigrants to boost the economy. I think this is called irony...


An interesting article - exposes the myth that immigrants are a financial drain on the country.


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> An interesting article - exposes the myth that immigrants are a financial drain on the country.


What myth? It has long been established that immigration had historically made a net contribution, although these days the debate has moved on because the figures do not reflect the downward pressure on natives pay or the infrastructure/social costs of immigration.

One crude way of looking at it is this. My immigrant wife works as an accountant and pays tax. In simple terms she makes a net contribution. But if a native accountant is unemployed then the costs of keeping that unemployed accountant need to be recognised. At present they are not.
If however no native accountant is unemployed, then my wife still requires a doctor, a seat on the bus/train etc. All these things have costs.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

rifleman said:


> What myth? It has long been established that immigration had historically made a net contribution, although these days the debate has moved on because the figures do not reflect the downward pressure on natives pay or the infrastructure/social costs of immigration.
> 
> One crude way of looking at it is this. My immigrant wife works as an accountant and pays tax. In simple terms she makes a net contribution. But if a native accountant is unemployed then the costs of keeping that unemployed accountant need to be recognised. At present they are not.
> If however no native accountant is unemployed, then my wife still requires a doctor, a seat on the bus/train etc. All these things have costs.


How strange, then, that the government's "fiscal watchdog" the Office for Budget Responsibility don't seem to have realised this. Perhaps you should drop them a line!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

In sdome parts of the UK immigrants have had a severe impact on local communities. Wages have been depressed and in some rural communities seasonal jobs that low-paid local families relied on to supplement their income have gone to Eastern Europeans who will work for peanuts as they typically live in shared accommodation and have no families in the UK to consider.
A whole shift of mainly British workers at a local factory was made redundant then a month later new job descriptions -only slightly amended -were advertised and of course with lower hourly rates. These new jobs were taken almost entirely by Poles and Latvians. Unite took up the case...in vain. No law had been broken.
The pressure on local facilities and services in some areas is straining them to breaking point. Dental surgeries have closed their lists as have some doctors and schools are faced with having to meet targets for Attainment Tests which take no account of non-English-speaking pupils who have of course a right to be educated but who receive little help in learning English or integrating. 
My town saw an enormous increase in the number of migrant workers. First the Portuguese, who came with families and have since largely moved on as a new wave of Estern Europeans came and were willing to live in shared accommodation and for even lower wages as their numbers were made up largely of single men. Incidents of drunken brawls, domestic violence and traffic accidents shot up. The police found themselves with an enormous bill for interpreting services.
Something else occurred which unsettled many locals: the town's landscape and character changed beyond recognition. Whilst this didn't particularly bother me it didn't go down well with many people, not many of whom were xenophobes or racists -some of the chief moaners were second and third generation Caribbean or Asians.
The ppoint they made was that nobody consulted them before their communities were changed so radically.
I'nm sure immigration in the last seven years has 'benefitted' the country as a whole: it's mainly benefitted employers and the middle classes though, through lower wages and cheap Polish plumbers and Slovakian nannies. But lower-paid people outside of metropolitan centres may not perceive these 'benefits'.
The UK is woefully short of some types of skilled professionals and the country will benefit from this kind of immigration. But at a time when so many people are either unemployed or about to be unemployed through this Government's short-sighted economic strategy -the Chancellor's Autumn Statement announced than an extra three-quarters of a million public sector jobs would go by the end of this Parliament - can we really see unrestricted EU immmigration as a benefit?
Surely it's time to follow the lead of most other EU member states and put limits on immigration?


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I thought that this thread was about the Spanish emigrating, not the problems of the Disunited Kingdom.

I had to visit the Traumatologist last Friday, he, like me is an immigrant, he originates from near Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. He is a fine fellow and a very skilled man, but I often wonder why those skilled workers like him, who trained in foreign lands, why didn't they stay where they were originally from and try and benefit their own populations.


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> How strange, then, that the government's "fiscal watchdog" the Office for Budget Responsibility don't seem to have realised this. Perhaps you should drop them a line!


Why is it strange that they haven't discussed a political, rather than economic matter when their role is economic?

I haven't seen the minister for sport discussing the offside rule.

Many politicians have, and do, discuss the issues I raised.


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

See the date of this article and read parahraph 7

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/Briefingpaper/document/4


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

rifleman said:


> Why is it strange that they haven't discussed a political, rather than economic matter when their role is economic?
> 
> I haven't seen the minister for sport discussing the offside rule.
> 
> Many politicians have, and do, discuss the issues I raised.




I doubt very much that people who work for the OBR (London-based, I assume) send their children to schools where there are classes with up to a third of non-English-speaking students with little if any language support, will have their jobs taken by Poles who will work for half their salary (probably for less than half as I'm sure most OBR staffers are very well-paid) or have to worry about finding an NHS dentist or doctor who will take them and their families as patients.
As with so many things, this is an example of government rhetoric and facts-on-the-ground having a serious mismatch.

I once had to teach a maths class in English and French...literally simultaneously translating - as I had a Portuguese-born student who had lived in France and spoke only French.
It can't have helped the other students learn and a few weeks of doing that almost drove me to drink and violence.
This is the reality at the sharp end.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

rifleman said:


> See the date of this article and read parahraph 7
> 
> Migration Watch UK - Economic - The fiscal impact of immigration to the UK (1.2)




Ah...ImmigrationWatch...
But we all know that it's a nest of xenophobes, racists, anti-Semites, KuKlux Klanners....
Can we take anything it produces seriously?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

rifleman said:


> Why is it strange that they haven't discussed a political, rather than economic matter when their role is economic?
> 
> I haven't seen the minister for sport discussing the offside rule.
> 
> Many politicians have, and do, discuss the issues I raised.


Be that as it may, multinational companies in Britain are still "importing" immigrant workers from Spain and elsewhere in the EU because they are better qualified, non-unionised and will work for lower wages. There was a case recently of some car plant in the North East looking for technical engineers - I had an email from the Ayuntamiento about it!

The same applies to workers from outside the EU, e.g. software engineers from India. I'm not saying it's right, but if companies in Britain have to pay higher wages to employ less productive British workers it is surely going to damage the economy. I guess that's what the OBR is worried about.


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> Ah...ImmigrationWatch...
> But we all know that it's a nest of xenophobes, racists, anti-Semites, KuKlux Klanners....
> Can we take anything it produces seriously?


I don't take much said by anyone at face value when it comes to immigration. Who do you trust not to spin on immigration?

Anyway, I linked to that page to reinforce the point that the simple argument that immigration has proven economically advantageous, which it undoubtedly has on a crude analysis, is not much debated these days. The debate moved on some time ago to the broader impacts of emigration. You have already ackowledged that though.


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> Be that as it may, multinational companies in Britain are still "importing" immigrant workers from Spain and elsewhere in the EU because they are better qualified, non-unionised and will work for lower wages. There was a case recently of some car plant in the North East looking for technical engineers - I had an email from the Ayuntamiento about it!
> 
> The same applies to workers from outside the EU, e.g. software engineers from India. I'm not saying it's right, but if companies in Britain have to pay higher wages to employ less productive British workers it is surely going to damage the economy. I guess that's what the OBR is worried about.


Well, your analysis is simplistic and looking at it in simple terms you are correct.

But for a country, rather than a business employing people in that country, the economics of immigration are not so simple. There are costs that the country bears so that the business can employ those immigrants.

If the company employing the migrants had to bear those costs, through a tax for example, employing them might not be competitive anymore.

Consider this. All immigrant workers need to be housed. Because we have a shortage of housing already you might argue that companies employing migrants should bear the cost of developing enough homes for them.

Is that clearer?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Be that as it may, multinational companies in Britain are still "importing" immigrant workers from Spain and elsewhere in the EU because they are better qualified, non-unionised and will work for lower wages. There was a case recently of some car plant in the North East looking for technical engineers - I had an email from the Ayuntamiento about it!
> 
> The same applies to workers from outside the EU, e.g. software engineers from India. I'm not saying it's right, but if companies in Britain have to pay higher wages to employ less productive British workers it is surely going to damage the economy. I guess that's what the OBR is worried about.


That is the crux of it. As I said, in some parts of the UK, immigration has imposed severe strains on infrastructure and led to depressed wages and a shortage of jobs for locals. Inevitably there is an increase in anti-immigrant hostility.

It's not just 'multinationals' -always easy to see them as the villains of the piece - who take on immigrant labour. SME's who are looking for ways to reduce overheads are the worst culprits in many areas.

Low productivity is a serious problem in the UK. We have it seems become a nation of sloths. Part of this imo comes down to schools failing to prepare students for the workplace. Sloppy standards of dress, punctuality, attendance and general attitude to completing tasks efficiently which are sadly commonplace in too many schools is inadequate preparation for earning your living in the 'real' world.
And when you take into account the appalling standards of literacy and numeracy all too common amongst far too many British school leavers and compare with the higher educational standards and generally better work ethic of many Eastern Europeans and Asians it's no wonder many employers prefer to take them on.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Hepa said:


> I thought that this thread was about the Spanish emigrating, not the problems of the Disunited Kingdom.
> 
> I had to visit the Traumatologist last Friday, he, like me is an immigrant, he originates from near Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. He is a fine fellow and a very skilled man, but I often wonder why those skilled workers like him, who trained in foreign lands, why didn't they stay where they were originally from and try and benefit their own populations.


Medics trained in Cuba are found all over the Spanish-speaking world. They are one of Cuba's finest exports. There is no shortage of doctors in Cuba, but because of the embargo there is a chronic shortage of medical supplies.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

rifleman said:


> Well, your analysis is simplistic and looking at it in simple terms you are correct.
> 
> But for a country, rather than a business employing people in that country, the economics of immigration are not so simple. There are costs that the country bears so that the business can employ those immigrants.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what you mean by "the costs a country bears". A country consists of its residents, its businesses and their employees, its government and numerous groups with different interests. It's not a single entity. 

Companies DO pay tax (or they should do) and one of the roles of government is to ensure that companies have an adequate supply of educated, healthy and housed workers. Where they come from is irrelevant.

Back to the original post, are you suggesting that the Spanish shouldn't emigrate in order to find work?


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> That is the crux of it. As I said, in some parts of the UK, immigration has imposed severe strains on infrastructure and led to depressed wages and a shortage of jobs for locals. Inevitably there is an increase in anti-immigrant hostility.
> 
> It's not just 'multinationals' -always easy to see them as the villains of the piece - who take on immigrant labour. SME's who are looking for ways to reduce overheads are the worst culprits in many areas.
> 
> ...


I don't think we can blame either SME's or Multinationals. They, quite properly, do what is good for their shareholders. It is politicians who have failed, both of the main parties so far as I can see although with the labour party any mildly anti-immigration stance would have you labelled 'racist"
It isn't businesses who have allowed so many immigrants to come here or failed to educate kids properly. That is politicians, and often driven by dogma rather than need.


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "the costs a country bears". A country consists of its residents, its businesses and their employees, its government and numerous groups with different interests. It's not a single entity.
> 
> Companies DO pay tax (or they should do) and one of the roles of government is to ensure that companies have an adequate supply of educated, healthy and housed workers. Where they come from is irrelevant.
> 
> Back to the original post, are you suggesting that the Spanish shouldn't emigrate in order to find work?


If you are not sure what I mean refer to the example I gave.

I am not suggesting anything. I have not expressed my personal view at any point in this discussion, just contributed some facts to keep the debate moving.

Since you ask though, I have no particular view about what spainiards should or should not do & I am reasonably content with the UK's immigration laws as they stand. If Spaniards want to work here that is fine with me.


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

Oh, sorry. I missed the part where you say companies do pay tax. You miss the point again. A few years ago we recognised that airlines did environmental damage and to reflect that we imposed taxes on flights.

Companies who employ immigrants do damage to local communities, in the ways both Mary & I have explained. So the question is do they pay enough tax to compensate for the damage they do.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Hepa said:


> I thought that this thread was about the Spanish emigrating, not the problems of the Disunited Kingdom.
> 
> I had to visit the Traumatologist last Friday, he, like me is an immigrant, he originates from near Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. He is a fine fellow and a very skilled man, but I often wonder why those skilled workers like him, who trained in foreign lands, why didn't they stay where they were originally from and try and benefit their own populations.


Perhaps they just can't wait to get away from their "own populations"
or they fancy a better standard of life
or the possibility to work with decent equipment
or they want the possibility to vote for an elected president...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina;663257
Companies DO pay tax (or they should do) and one of the roles of government is to ensure that companies have an adequate supply of educated said:


> But it's not really irrelevant....for the reasons Rifleman and I have explained plus those relating to unionisation and wage levels which you rightly referred to..
> There are many factors we must take into account, including the level of unemployment locally amongst the 'indigenous', for lack of a better term.
> How can it make economic sense or be right for Eastern Europeans who may contribute nothing to the local community and send their money back home when the state aka taxpayers, often not well off themselves, are contributing to welfare benefits for unemployed British nationals?
> The same principle, imo, applies to Spanish workers who are obliged to migrate to find work because their own Government is unable or unwilling to provide it for them at home. Imo it is the duty of government to enable its citizens to be able to work.
> And that is in no way racism,. xenophobia or whatever...it's social justice and sound economic sense.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Perhaps they just can't wait to get away from their "own populations"
> or they fancy a better standard of life
> or the possibility to work with decent equipment
> or they want the possibility to vote for an elected president...


Or he could be gay....Cuba is notoriously homophobic.
As well as just wanting to live in a more free and open society.
Or has had enough of Leaders who make speeches lasting hours and hours and hours and......


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Or he could be gay....Cuba is notoriously homophobic.
> As well as just wanting to live in a more free and open society.
> Or has had enough of Leaders who make speeches lasting hours and hours and hours and......


I shall ask him next time, "¿ Eres un hombre pero no muy fanático señor,?"


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