# US guns in Mexico



## RPBHaas (Dec 21, 2011)

While I do believe the demand of the US drug users ultimately drives the violence here in Mexico and that a large portion of the guns used by the cartels originate in the US, it irritates me to no end to hear Calderon (full disclosure, I'm a fan) blame the guns on the US's lax gun laws (even though they may be). Likewise it irritates me to no end to hear the fanatics at the NRA to accept zero responsibility for their influence with the gun lobby by squarely blaming the deserters from the military and Mexican police for the guns in Mexico. (full disclosure, I had a hunting license in Texas for the last 10 years)
In the case of Calderon, I make a simple suggestion before blaming another country. STOP all traffic entering Mexico at the border like the US does.
As for the NRA, I find it hard to accept their blatant denial of the "straw purchase" types that occur along the border.
Any thoughts or opinions?


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## Grizzy (Nov 8, 2010)

Before I moved to Mexico I promised myself I would never utter the words "mexico should do XXXXXXX like (insert other country) does." I try hard to stick to that vow while a guest in beautiful Mexico. I wish more expats would remember this tactful strategy.


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## tepetapan (Sep 30, 2010)

"In the case of Calderon, I make a simple suggestion before blaming another country. STOP all traffic entering Mexico at the border like the US does...."
Right. Just like the USA and TEXAS blames Mexico for the drugs going into the US. It is not Mexico´s problem that Texas allows tons of drugs safe passage through the state EVERY month. When the USA stops outsourcing the war on drugs to other countries THEN you have something to complain about.
And what about the USA, DEA and ATF allowing, against all federal laws, guns and weapons INTO Mexico? Oh, Wait...that is not the USA´s fault. Right.


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

RPBHass states:
" STOP all traffic entering Mexico at the border like the US does."

What good is it to stop all traffic at the border if they do not seize 
the drugs entering...

Even the US Border Patrol admits they only confiscate 10% of all drugs
coming across our borders....

Remember where there is a demand there is someone ready to supply.........


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## vitrsna (Sep 18, 2011)

Well, according to a CNN report, most of the narco guns in Mexico are purchased in Texas, Arizona, and California because it is very easy to get guns in the USA that cannot be purchased in Mexico. My understanding is that the USA is the prime supplier of guns used by narco traffickers in Mexico. As a result, the narcos have better and more sophisticated guns and so can easily "out gun" the police in Mexico. As far as stopping all traffic at the border entering Mexico, I'm not sure this will help much because most guns enter Mexico from the USA via underground tunnels, boats, and airplanes. I've lived in Mexico for 9+ years.


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

vitrsna states:

" My understanding is that the USA is the prime supplier of guns used by narco traffickers in Mexico."

Choicis8 states:

"The USA is probably the prime supplier of guns for the whole world....


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

Kodak used to make hand grenades and bomb sights.
GE makes jet engines
Rolls Royce USA makes jet engines
Chrysler used to make rocket engines for nuclear missiles; maybe they still do. Somebody does, but I'm out of touch now.
Etc. Most large companies are in the arms business. Your nearby tank factory may only ship at night, like when Kodak made Polaroid film because Polaroid couldn't.


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

Well I was thinking about companies like Colt and Winchester but you are correct about many companies making goods for war but we were talking about guns, no cartel I can think of is buying bomb sights or jet engines.........


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## pappabee (Jun 22, 2010)

Ok everyone you got Pappabees attention. Let’s have a look at this “gun” question. The very loud gun lobby in the states has said that ‘guns don’t kill people, people kill people’. That might be true but I’ll bet the farm that if that people didn’t have a gun many other people would still be alive today. Very few guns fire by themselves. For the most part for a gun to fire there must be a people behind it. 

Then we are told that ‘the right to bear arms is guaranteed by the Construction’. That’s very true but when that document was written there was a very small standing army and the actual defense of the country was in the hands of the militia. An origination that only was formed in case of a need to defend something. They would look somewhat silly standing in front of an enemy shaking their fists because they were not given the right to bear arms. And then we’re told that guns are used for hunting and sport. Has anyone ever seen anyone hunt dear with an AK 47? And what kind of sport is it to go to a range and let loose of 200 bullets from an Uzi?

Now let’s get to the question of the US and getting guns into Mexico. According to the ATF more guns enter Mexico from the US that from all other countries combined. They say that not all are purchased in the US, some are transshipped from other countries. Many come in on Semi trucks not in the trailer but in the cab. In May of 2010 the Mexican Police and AFT stopped all trucks going through Monterey and they found over 750 guns (auto, rifles and hand guns) all in the cabs of trucks heading south. And that’s only one way they get in and only one month’s worth.

Do I want a gun in my house? H-ll no. The crooks might take it away and use it on me. I’ve got a fighting chance against a knife or a club but no way against a gun.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

vitrsna said:


> Well, according to a CNN report, most of the narco guns in Mexico are purchased in Texas, Arizona, and California because it is very easy to get guns in the USA that cannot be purchased in Mexico. My understanding is that the USA is the prime supplier of guns used by narco traffickers in Mexico. As a result, the narcos have better and more sophisticated guns and so can easily "out gun" the police in Mexico. As far as stopping all traffic at the border entering Mexico, I'm not sure this will help much because most guns enter Mexico from the USA via underground tunnels, boats, and airplanes. I've lived in Mexico for 9+ years.


Both the Mexican police and the cartels must buy all their weapons from the US. The difference is that the cartels have more money than the Mexican police. Current estimates are that the drug trade is worth about $15 - $50 billion dollars/year. The entire federal budget of Mexico is about $250 billion dollars/year for everything.


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## tepetapan (Sep 30, 2010)

TundraGreen said:


> Both the Mexican police and the cartels must buy all their weapons from the US. The difference is that the cartels have more money than the Mexican police. Current estimates are that the drug trade is worth about $15 - $50 billion dollars/year. The entire federal budget of Mexico is about $250 billion dollars/year for everything.


 Sorry but that is not quite right. Neither MUST buy their guns from the USA. There are no international laws stating such a thing. They buy the weapons because the USA is the world´s largest supplier of weapons in the world AND the price is right. 
Something to ponder....Why does the US police and mexican police like to say they are out gunned? The price of an AK47 or an Uzi is pretty cheap in the budget of a police force. Once again, do the math. It has nothing to do with the price of the weapon... it has everything to do with politics and the sales of weapons.


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## mickisue1 (Mar 10, 2012)

pappabee said:


> Ok everyone you got Pappabees attention. Let’s have a look at this “gun” question. The very loud gun lobby in the states has said that ‘guns don’t kill people, people kill people’. That might be true but I’ll bet the farm that if that people didn’t have a gun many other people would still be alive today. Very few guns fire by themselves. For the most part for a gun to fire there must be a people behind it.
> 
> Then we are told that ‘the right to bear arms is guaranteed by the Construction’. That’s very true but when that document was written there was a very small standing army and the actual defense of the country was in the hands of the militia. An origination that only was formed in case of a need to defend something. They would look somewhat silly standing in front of an enemy shaking their fists because they were not given the right to bear arms. And then we’re told that guns are used for hunting and sport. Has anyone ever seen anyone hunt dear with an AK 47? And what kind of sport is it to go to a range and let loose of 200 bullets from an Uzi?
> 
> ...


I've long been an opponent of the nonsense that the NRA spouts. My position was cemented years ago, when I was working in health insurance, and dealing on a daily basis with the mom of a 14 year old boy.

He'd lost most of one leg, and part of the other, because his dad, and the other "adults" that he was hunting with, thought that semi automatic weapons were reasonable to use for deer hunting.

So, when he was accidentally shot, it wasn't just one bullet, it was several.

Guns and fools, or guns and criminals make a bad combination. Guns and psychotic people, same equation. 

If the US has the will to attack the propaganda of the NRA and its supporters, death rates from violent crimes will drop all over the world.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

tepetapan said:


> Sorry but that is not quite right. Neither MUST buy their guns from the USA. There are no international laws stating such a thing. They buy the weapons because the USA is the world´s largest supplier of weapons in the world AND the price is right.
> Something to ponder....Why does the US police and mexican police like to say they are out gunned? The price of an AK47 or an Uzi is pretty cheap in the budget of a police force. Once again, do the math. It has nothing to do with the price of the weapon... it has everything to do with politics and the sales of weapons.


I used "must" in the sense of "probably" meaning I do not have actual knowledge of where they buy them, not in the sense of there being a requirement to buy them there.

As far as the outgunned issue... I can believe that the cartels have a bigger budget for weapons per person, but you are correct in noting that weapons are relatively cheap for both sides.


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## ReefHound (Aug 9, 2010)

TundraGreen said:


> Both the Mexican police and the cartels must buy all their weapons from the US. The difference is that the cartels have more money than the Mexican police. Current estimates are that the drug trade is worth about $15 - $50 billion dollars/year. The entire federal budget of Mexico is about $250 billion dollars/year for everything.


Another difference is the Mexican police don't actually have to pay for them. According to pappabee they confiscated 750 in one month in one city so they probably confiscate tens of thousands per year in operations. How many federal police are there? How many times have we seen the federal police display arsenals of seized high-powered weaponry?


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## edub (Apr 10, 2012)

And here I thought this thread had some info on taking my guns to Mexico when I go.


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## Detailman (Aug 27, 2011)

edub said:


> And here I thought this thread had some info on taking my guns to Mexico when I go.


When I look back on the original poster I find that this thread has followed his theme. It has nothing to do with information on your taking your guns into Mexico.

Is this the way you start your first post to this forum?


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## edub (Apr 10, 2012)

Detailman said:


> When I look back on the original poster I find that this thread has followed his theme. It has nothing to do with information on your taking your guns into Mexico.
> 
> Is this the way you start your first post to this forum?


Sure. A little humor is always appropriate don't you think?


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

Unless you are prepared to visit a Mexican Federal Prison you better think twice about bringing guns,rifles or ammunition into Mexico, and that's no joke...................


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## Detailman (Aug 27, 2011)

edub said:


> Sure. A little humor is always appropriate don't you think?


Absolutely. Next time I think I would put a smiley face so we know humour is involved rather than sarcasm.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

edub said:


> And here I thought this thread had some info on taking my guns to Mexico when I go.


You want info on taking your guns to Mexico when you go? It is really simple. Don't. For a private citizen to possess a gun in Mexico you need a license generally obtained through one of the hunting clubs. Prior to 1998 you could get 5 to 30 years in prison if caught with even one round of ammunition without a license. It has been relaxed somewhat and now it is a $1000 fine if it is a first time offense, with one weapon, of a restricted number of calibers. More than one weapon or weapons of particular calibers and it still means prison time.

I guess the humor was a little too dry for me to realize it was humor.


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## ReefHound (Aug 9, 2010)

TundraGreen said:


> You want info on taking your guns to Mexico when you go? It is really simple. Don't. For a private citizen to possess a gun in Mexico you need a license generally obtained through one of the hunting clubs. Prior to 1998 you could get 5 to 30 years in prison if caught with even one round of ammunition without a license. It has been relaxed somewhat and now it is a $1000 fine if it is a first time offense, with one weapon, of a restricted number of calibers. More than one weapon or weapons of particular calibers and it still means prison time.


Is this enforced? Against non-gringos I mean. Cuz if weapons are pouring across the border in the quantities alleged then there must be lots of people being caught and sent to the slammer. And I would think the "bad guys" facing those kinds of penalties would put up armed resistance - as they do so often in encounters with military and police - yet I never hear about gun battles right AT the border with Aduana agents.


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## pappabee (Jun 22, 2010)

ReefHound said:


> Is this enforced? Against non-gringos I mean. Cuz if weapons are pouring across the border in the quantities alleged then there must be lots of people being caught and sent to the slammer. And I would think the "bad guys" facing those kinds of penalties would put up armed resistance - as they do so often in encounters with military and police - yet I never hear about gun battles right AT the border with Aduana agents.


Yes it's being enforced against everyone. The 'non-gringos' are usually members of some cartel or street gang and are either sent to a US jail or to a Mexican one depending on witch side of the border they are caught. Very seldom does the US catch one person with one weapon, it is much more common that they catch a few people with many weapons. 

Please understand that much of the gun running is done by "mules". People who are either paid or threatened to move guns across the border. The actual cartel or gang members will only meet the runners after the crossing has been made.

Some of the truck drivers who were caught in the Monterey raids were paid $2000Mx to $4000 Mx to carry a few guns into Mexico. At least one was told that his family would be killed if he didn't carry the guns. We can't be sure if any of this is true but it does make sense.

We as Expats (I hate the term "******") just need to follow the law and help keep guns out of Mexico. 

Also remember that someone once said that Mexican Jails give 'cruel and inhuman" punishment a new meaning.


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## edub (Apr 10, 2012)

I can't believe some of you actually took my post seriously. As if there are US citizens who don't know you can't take your guns to Mexico. Besides, I'm sure you can buy whatever you want once there.


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

No you are limited to certain size or caliber pistol, rifle or shotguns you can "buy" from the Army........


I wonder how it would work if an expat found an antique rifle and wanted to return it to the US ...
Does anyone know a procedure to legally travel with an antique rifle?


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## pappabee (Jun 22, 2010)

chicois8 said:


> No you are limited to certain size or caliber pistol, rifle or shotguns you can "buy" from the Army........
> 
> 
> I wonder how it would work if an expat found an antique rifle and wanted to return it to the US ...
> Does anyone know a procedure to legally travel with an antique rifle?


A lot of it depends on two things. First the age of the rifle and second can it fire.

According to my friend with the Mexican police, if a person were found with ANY weapon they could be taken to jail. You notice that the term "could" is a direct quote and that's all I could get out of him.


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

pappabee said:


> A lot of it depends on two things. First the age of the rifle and second can it fire.
> 
> According to my friend with the Mexican police, if a person were found with ANY weapon they could be taken to jail. You notice that the term "could" is a direct quote and that's all I could get out of him.


It is an 1892 Winchester 44/40 cal. The ex-owner said it worked but I had no shells to try it,
It would seem to me there must be a way to remove a rifle from Mexico.......


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## ReefHound (Aug 9, 2010)

edub said:


> I can't believe some of you actually took my post seriously. As if there are US citizens who don't know you can't take your guns to Mexico. Besides, I'm sure you can buy whatever you want once there.


I'm guessing you know your legal purchase options are very limited in Mexico so you must mean buy off the street. Be careful you don't get involved in something you can't get out of. Best to try and stay off the radar of the "bad guys".


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## dongringo (Dec 13, 2010)

Mexico manufactures its own assault rifle, under license from the German firm Hechler & Koch's G36V, and distributes it among its military and police forces. Supposedly the narcos prefer US imports.

A good overview of Mexico's gun laws, affecting foreigners, is at: A Practical Guide to Mexico's Gun Laws for Americans


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## mickisue1 (Mar 10, 2012)

edub said:


> I can't believe some of you actually took my post seriously. As if there are US citizens who don't know you can't take your guns to Mexico. Besides, I'm sure you can buy whatever you want once there.


Until people "know" you in a forum, comments such as the one you made are about as wise as joking with a TSA agent about the razors in the soles of your shoes: you will become the subject of suspicion.


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## johnmex (Nov 30, 2010)

One of the recurring things mentioned in this thread is the "AK-47". This assault rifle seems to be the weapon of choice of the narcos. Although I have no doubts that many of these are "imported" from the USA, they are not manufactured there. The "AK-47" common in Mexican narco arsenals is really a "Type 56" manufactured in China. A Chinese company called Norinco also manufactures a variant of the Uzi that makes its way into Mexico. Many of these "imports" are coming across the Pacific in Chinese freighters and are off-loaded to "fishing boats" before the freighters dock.

I agree that lax US gun laws and a demand for guns by the narcos will always keep a supplier or 2 (or 200) in business in the US.


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## pappabee (Jun 22, 2010)

johnmex said:


> One of the recurring things mentioned in this thread is the "AK-47". This assault rifle seems to be the weapon of choice of the narcos. Although I have no doubts that many of these are "imported" from the USA, they are not manufactured there. The "AK-47" common in Mexican narco arsenals is really a "Type 56" manufactured in China. A Chinese company called Norinco also manufactures a variant of the Uzi that makes its way into Mexico. Many of these "imports" are coming across the Pacific in Chinese freighters and are off-loaded to "fishing boats" before the freighters dock.
> 
> I agree that lax US gun laws and a demand for guns by the narcos will always keep a supplier or 2 (or 200) in business in the US.


A model of the AK-47 is also made by a number of the old Soviet Block countries and the Uzi was originally commissioned by the Israeli army. And yes some guns are off loaded into fishing boats to be taken to shore in Mexico. But the vast majority of guns coming into Mexico start out in the US. And, for the most part, when a gun runner is caught, he/she is just returned to their native country. (I guess the old adage, if you can't do something right the first time, try, try, again until you get it perfect)


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## edub (Apr 10, 2012)

Anyone know their gun laws well? My understanding is that you can own but not carry a pistol of limited caliber. Oddly, a 5/7 should be legal. But pistols aren't worth a hill of beans for home defense, so if you can buy a 12 guage you are good. My main question is what can I keep in the cabin of my boat. Also, what kind of rifles are legal? And what if you own a security service? The only thing I worry about is being the rich ****** that makes a good target. But on the other hand I own a business in Detroit so...


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## mickisue1 (Mar 10, 2012)

Just what Mexico needs. Well, what the US needs, for that matter.

More guns.

How about this idea. I realize it might be radical. 

Protecting one's possessions is not worth the life of a human being.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

Forget about bringing guns to Mexico or having one on your boat or any other vehicle; you can't.


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## 146028 (Nov 16, 2011)

edub said:


> Anyone know their gun laws well? My understanding is that you can own but not carry a pistol of limited caliber. Oddly, a 5/7 should be legal. But pistols aren't worth a hill of beans for home defense, so if you can buy a 12 guage you are good. My main question is what can I keep in the cabin of my boat. Also, what kind of rifles are legal? And what if you own a security service? The only thing I worry about is being the rich ****** that makes a good target. But on the other hand I own a business in Detroit so...


If you feel that owning a gun is necessary for your own protection then Mexico is not for you.


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## sparks55 (Jan 15, 2012)

polynomial said:


> If you feel that owning a gun is necessary for your own protection then Mexico is not for you.


My husband and I collect guns. They are also great for liquid assets. We are looking into the regs to bring them with us when we move.


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## conorkilleen (Apr 28, 2010)

sparks55 said:


> My husband and I collect guns. They are also great for liquid assets. We are looking into the regs to bring them with us when we move.


um....good luck with that. I am an avid gun collector as well and I was not able to bring any of them into Mexico. Yes, I do wish to own a firearm in Mexico, however you need to be very smart about it. Guns are available for purchase from the Army only after you satisfy a list of requirements. I hope you like to hunt.

I'm about 6 months from being approved (lots of paperwork and red tape, at least here in Monterrey). I am planning to wait till my move to Mexico City to complete the process.

Like I stated before, you cannot bring your gun collection into Mexico. I did hear (from a random source) that someone can possibly bring in a hunting rifle if they were registered with the Mexican government and military with some sort of signed/notarized permission, itinerary, and misc other documents from an authorized hunting camp. I am not sure that is true. Even if it was true, you still need to buy the ammunition from the Military. Hope you have a bayonet.


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## tepetapan (Sep 30, 2010)

sparks55 said:


> My husband and I collect guns. They are also great for liquid assets. We are looking into the regs to bring them with us when we move.


I think that is great! Be sure to put on your application the part about them being liquid assets. Just in case you need a little extra cash, selling off a gun or two in Mexico would be a good option.


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## conorkilleen (Apr 28, 2010)

tepetapan said:


> I think that is great! Be sure to put on your application the part about them being liquid assets. Just in case you need a little extra cash, selling off a gun or two in Mexico would be a good option.


I really hope you are joking.


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## pappabee (Jun 22, 2010)

Ladies and Gentlemen,

This whole topic is stupid. There are some very strict gun laws in Mexico and for the most part they say that you can not own a gun, you can not carry a gun nor can you carry ammo. 

There are a few exceptions and they have been listed here. If you feel nude because you don't have a gun, please move to Philly, New York or LA (or for that matter almost anyplace in the states) but not to Mexico. If you keep guns as a collector then collect them in the States and leave them safely there. 

Look, we have chosen to live in this country, it is our job to abide by their rules. So let's stop the "how can I's" and enjoy our lives here.


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## conorkilleen (Apr 28, 2010)

Well, I would like a shotgun here in Mexico to shoot skeet. I have been shooting skeet for over 17 years in local clubs in the US and would like to pick up the hobby again after almost a year of being inactive. 

If you are looking to own a firearm in Mexico for self defense, then thats just going to open up a can of worms and make matters worse if you do decide to shoot someone trying to enter your house. If you kill the "wrong" person, then that persons "family" could be out for blood...not to mention what the police and local government would do. 

On the other hand, if you are of the school that nobody should own a gun (in Mexico), then you have obviously never been in a situation where you needed one for sport or otherwise.

On a previous note, I drove back from the states to Monterrey yesterday and all of the Federal Police and Fuerza Civil that I saw had brand new shiny AR-15s. I was pulled over and inspected twice on my route. I got a close look at them and they looked like they just came out of the box. Seems only the military have the older Heckler and Koch models. They are beat. The AK is popular with the narcos because its cheap to get, not because its "preferred". I'm sure they would prefer a nice new AR, however I believe those are reserved for the higher ranking assassins and not the low level street gangs.


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## sparks55 (Jan 15, 2012)

pappabee said:


> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
> This whole topic is stupid. There are some very strict gun laws in Mexico and for the most part they say that you can not own a gun, you can not carry a gun nor can you carry ammo.
> 
> ...


:ranger:I don' feel naked without a gun. They are a hobby that my husband and I enjoy. Whether or not we can take our guns won't make a difference in our move to mexico. We have a place to store them here, so that is no problem.


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## RPBHaas (Dec 21, 2011)

pappabee said:


> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
> This whole topic is stupid. There are some very strict gun laws in Mexico and for the most part they say that you can not own a gun, you can not carry a gun nor can you carry ammo.
> 
> ...


I absolutely agree with the topic of how to bring guns here for ExPats is not the point I intended. I have noticed that the majority of ExPats with time in country have expressed that guns for us here in Mexico is not a good option. I concur. The day I started this thread I watched or read news segments describing the views by Calderon and the NRA regarding guns in Mexico and the violence that correlates with those guns. I have several former workers who have brought guns to Mexico illegally and have shared their stories with me over the years. Thus, in my view, something as simple as checking travelers entering Mexico at the US/Mexico border, which Mexico rarely does, can help Calderon's cause. He has part of a solution at his disposal and chooses not to use it. (I'm still a Calderon fan)


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## edub (Apr 10, 2012)

Tundra, I'm not sure what the point of your OP was. It sounds like you are asking if people agree that drug demand in the US and the availability for people to buy guns is the problem for the violence in Mexico.

In law there is something called proximate cause which is much like it sounds. It means that it is only reasonable to argue that one thing is the cause of another if there is a direct, articulable relationship.

If you are looking for a proximate cause of these problems you probably want to look at the failure of the Mexican Government to adequatly prosecute wrongdoers. Think about it, if these cartels have so much money, I'm sure they could figure out how to manufacture their own weapons if they couldn't smuggle them. The Palastinians figured out how to build home made Katusha rockets that fly miles into Israel - where there is millions on the line people will find a way.

Also, understand that Mexico's gun laws are not designed to stop the wrong people from having guns, they are designed to prevent the public from having the ability to organise a revolution. The criminals will always get guns and I'm sure a great many straw man purchases occur.


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