# what's the point of non-lucrative visa?



## yevlondon (Jul 8, 2020)

i have been reading threads on non lucrative visa and it seems only useful for rich people or retired only.
1. you can't work in Spain, by definition.
2. you can't even work remotely (well, you shouldn't, but even if you do - see points 3 and 4)
3. you have to stay in Spain more than 183 days a year by conditions of the visa
4. which makes you Spanish tax resident and you will have to declare your worldwide assets and income to Spain, and possibly pay more taxes - for example on your non-Spanish properties, as well as extra income tax if you get income outside Spain (taking into consideration double taxation treaties of course).

looks like an elaborate plan by tax authorities to attract rich people and then tax the living cr*p out of them 

am i missing something? what is the benefit then? or is it for rich people who dont care about extra tax and just want to live in Spain?

any personal experiences of people on such visas?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

yevlondon said:


> i have been reading threads on non lucrative visa and it seems only useful for rich people or retired only.
> 1. you can't work in Spain, by definition.
> 2. you can't even work remotely (well, you shouldn't, but even if you do - see points 3 and 4)
> 3. you have to stay in Spain more than 183 days a year by conditions of the visa
> ...


The non-lucrative visa used to be known as the retirement visa.
Yes, it's to attract financially self-sufficient people who don't need to work. 

That said, some consulates issue these visas for people who work online.


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## yevlondon (Jul 8, 2020)

i see. that is sort of what i thought.

i m wondering what those "online working" paying people then do tax-wise. i had two advisers calculate what would i need to pay Spain if i did everything correctly and declared my UK income and paid tax to Spanish authorities (without working in Spain itself, technically). the extra tax was quite high. about 7.000 Eur a year. which is not something i can afford. so i guess i ll have to watch my days in Spain and not stay longer than 183 days :/


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

yevlondon said:


> i see. that is sort of what i thought.
> 
> i m wondering what those "online working" paying people then do tax-wise. i had two advisers calculate what would i need to pay Spain if i did everything correctly and declared my UK income and paid tax to Spanish authorities (without working in Spain itself, technically). the extra tax was quite high. about 7.000 Eur a year. which is not something i can afford. so i guess i ll have to watch my days in Spain and not stay longer than 183 days :/


As a non-EU / Third Country citizen, remember that you will only be permitted to take holidays the Shenghen region as a whole, including Spain, for 90 days in every 180.

Holidays. No work allowed,

Wherever you are when you do the work is what counts, not where the clients are.


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## yevlondon (Jul 8, 2020)

i m well aware of that


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## Ilovepatnevin (Feb 26, 2009)

I always presumed it was for retired Americans who didn't want their medical system to charge the living cr*p out of them.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I am not sure what you mean by not stay over 183 days. If you are a non-EU member ( post Brexit UK) you will only be able to stay a max of 90 days


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## yevlondon (Jul 8, 2020)

kaipa what are you talking about? it s not 90 days
its 90 days in rolling 180 days. in any case it is irrelevant to my original post.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

I belong to several forums for US expats in Spain, and lots of the people posting there have a non-lucrative visa. It's only been in the last couple of years that the consulates have started denying the visa to people working remotely. Previously remote work was allowed, and yes, they had to file a Spanish income tax return on their world-wide income. More recently I've read about people who simply don't mention anything about working online when applying for the visa, and then they continue working remotely once in Spain. I can't see how that is legal, though. 

This is definitely the visa that retired people should apply for. The minimum income or savings requirement is about 36,000€/year for a couple. While this amount is not within everyone's reach, it's not exorbitant either. 

It's only logical that people should pay tax in the country where they reside. Foreigners who are resident in Spain pay the same amount of tax as Spanish people. It isn't a plan to tax the living cr*p out of immigrants.


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## yevlondon (Jul 8, 2020)

kalohi said:


> I belong to several forums for US expats in Spain, and lots of the people posting there have a non-lucrative visa. It's only been in the last couple of years that the consulates have started denying the visa to people working remotely. Previously remote work was allowed, and yes, they had to file a Spanish income tax return on their world-wide income. More recently I've read about people who simply don't mention anything about working online when applying for the visa, and then they continue working remotely once in Spain. I can't see how that is legal, though.
> 
> This is definitely the visa that retired people should apply for. The minimum income or savings requirement is about 36,000€/year for a couple. While this amount is not within everyone's reach, it's not exorbitant either.
> 
> It's only logical that people should pay tax in the country where they reside. Foreigners who are resident in Spain pay the same amount of tax as Spanish people. It isn't a plan to tax the living cr*p out of immigrants.


thank you. so all those people you know/read about "top up" income tax into Spanish system? in particular the "remote workers"


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

yevlondon said:


> thank you. so all those people you know/read about "top up" income tax into Spanish system? in particular the "remote workers"


I know some of them just keep that income quiet, which obviously isn't legal. And others do just what you've said, although by doing so they're admitting to the Spanish government that they're working while in Spain on a non-lucrative visa. I suspect that isn't legal either - but I'm not an expert on this issue.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Obviously many people can work remotely for a time and provided that the money remains outside of Spain I very much doubt you would be caught and even then if it was not anything excessive I imagine if would be a fine and a warning. That said it's not really a comfortable way to live if you intend to be in Spain a long time


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