# Covid19 in Spain



## xabiaxica

Schengen residents will be able to come for their hols from June 21

https://www.lavanguardia.com/politi...GDbJOWu84o79Jk0bTQW3N0WgFm-KCCWo9hYv_d92vMMKo


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## Pesky Wesky

Here's how Beni is going to deal with beach tourism this summer
https://english.elpais.com/spanish_...amous-beaches-reopen-by-appointment-only.html


> *Benidorm’s world-famous beaches reopen by appointment only*
> 
> *The sands in the Valencian city will be divided into plots measuring four square meters, with special areas for the over-70s*


Very wise move if the beach scenes I saw on the news today are anything to go by. Looking forward to see how it all works out


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## Pesky Wesky

This is big news and will be bigger as from Monday 15th when the German tourists will actually start to arrive


> About 10,900 German tourists are scheduled to arrive on 47 separate flights over the coming days and will spend at least five days on the islands. Most will stay on Mallorca, the largest of the Balearic islands, but there will be eight flights to Ibiza and one to Menorca.
> Under the scheme, the German tourists will not need to be tested for the coronavirus and will also be exempt from the mandatory two-week quarantine period.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, they will have to fill out a public health form, have their temperature taken on arrival at the airport, and give the authorities their contact details and the address of their accommodation. If they develop any symptoms, a team will be dispatched to where they are staying to carry out a PCR test.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ands-prepare-to-welcome-11000-german-tourists


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## Isobella

Pesky Wesky said:


> Here's how Beni is going to deal with beach tourism this summer
> https://english.elpais.com/spanish_...amous-beaches-reopen-by-appointment-only.html
> 
> Very wise move if the beach scenes I saw on the news today are anything to go by. Looking forward to see how it all works out


May be a wise move but who would want to holiday and have to book online to go on the beach. No thanks.


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## Pesky Wesky

Isobella said:


> May be a wise move but who would want to holiday and have to book online to go on the beach. No thanks.


 Who?
People who want to have a cheap holiday in the sun with the least possibility of catching Covid, I suppose.


It's not the first beach in Spain that you have book to go on. There's also the Playa de Los Catedrales in Galicia. 

https://visitalascatedrales.com/


I think it's great idea to keep things going without destroying the "monument" itself or whilst trying to keep a degree of safety.


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## Barriej

I'd like to think that ALL overseas visitors to all countries will have to do a temperature check and leave contact details for a few months at least. 

Possibly a 'new style' immigration card could be supplied to speed up arrivals.

So does this mean that all the new posh automatic passport machines will be switched off??


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## xabiaxica

Let's not forget that social distancing & the wearing of masks applies to tourists too. 

In the BOE June 10 it says that masks will continue to be required until the end of Dec 2020


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## Barriej

xabiaxica said:


> Let's not forget that social distancing & the wearing of masks applies to tourists too.
> 
> In the BOE June 10 it says that masks will continue to be required until the end of Dec 2020


Im more than happy to comply with that, 
In fact me n the wife have been wearing ours here in the UK and I've been wearing mine at work for the last 4 weeks plus.

We have masks, filters, gloves, hand sanitiser (all supplied thanks to my job) to last about 18 months.

Its a bit of a pain and we have been looked at a few times, in shops etc, (and I know they are kind of a placebo) but what will be etc...


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## stevesainty

https://www.talkquesada.com/resources/image/32805

Apparently The UK thinks it is included as an EU country, but I thought it was just the Schengen area countries.


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## jimenato

stevesainty said:


> https://www.talkquesada.com/resources/image/32805
> 
> Apparently The UK thinks it is included as an EU country, but I thought it was just the Schengen area countries.


Definitely Schengen according to Reuters



> Visitors from outside the Schengen area will be able to visit Spain from July 1, though that will hinge on specific border agreements. Britain and Ireland are outside Schengen.


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## Williams2

xabiaxica said:


> Let's not forget that social distancing & the wearing of masks applies to tourists too.
> 
> In the BOE June 10 it says that masks will continue to be required until the end of Dec 2020


I only hope this doesn't become the new detritus washed up on holiday beaches namely discarded
masks, plastic gloves and used sanitiser bottles.


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## xabiaxica

stevesainty said:


> https://www.talkquesada.com/resources/image/32805
> 
> Apparently The UK thinks it is included as an EU country, but I thought it was just the Schengen area countries.





jimenato said:


> Definitely Schengen according to Reuters


The English language version of El País specifically includes the UK, the Spanish language version doesn't even mention the UK - both state EU including Schengen.


The English language version gives the 'logic' that the UK still benefits from EU rules until the end of the transition period. 


I read elsewhere that Moncloa has been asked for specific clarification.

Since this 'agreement' has come about since the UK actually left, does it in fact apply?


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## Alcalaina

xabiaxica said:


> The English language version of El País specifically includes the UK, the Spanish language version doesn't even mention the UK - both state EU including Schengen.
> 
> 
> The English language version gives the 'logic' that the UK still benefits from EU rules until the end of the transition period.
> 
> 
> I read elsewhere that Moncloa has been asked for specific clarification.
> 
> Since this 'agreement' has come about since the UK actually left, does it in fact apply?


As I understand it, it applies only to Schengen countries and all others (including the UK) will have to reach a "reciprocal agreement". 

I would put money on there being a reciprocal agreement in place with the UK and Ireland before 21 June.


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## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> As I understand it, it applies only to Schengen countries and all others (including the UK) will have to reach a "reciprocal agreement".
> 
> I would put money on there being a reciprocal agreement in place with the UK and Ireland before 21 June.


I agree - & that's how I understand it too. 


I won't be betting against you, either.


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## Tigerlillie

Williams2 said:


> I only hope this doesn't become the new detritus washed up on holiday beaches namely discarded
> masks, plastic gloves and used sanitiser bottles.


Oh it will be, of that I have absolutely no doubt and according to many sources it's already becoming a problem.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52807526

This in Dorset UK:

https://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/18469675.ppe-littered-across-weymouth-risk-health/

This across the World:

From Hawaii: https://www.thegardenisland.com/2020/05/08/hawaii-news/new-kind-of-litter/

Just type ppe litter worldwide into your browser


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## Mark s

*Brits allowed from 21 June*

https://www.costa-news.com/costa-blanca-news/spain-gives-green-light-for-british-tourists/

Brits will be allowed into Spain as of the 21st June according to Costa Blanca news Which is good news for me as I took a chance and booked for the 4th August so we can go to our house. It’ll be the first time back there in 8 months by the time we get there.

Regards,

Mark & Taffi


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## Barriej

Mark s said:


> https://www.costa-news.com/costa-blanca-news/spain-gives-green-light-for-british-tourists/
> 
> Brits will be allowed into Spain as of the 21st June according to Costa Blanca news Which is good news for me as I took a chance and booked for the 4th August so we can go to our house. It’ll be the first time back there in 8 months by the time we get there.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Mark & Taffi



According to the N332 Facebook page, the UK high Commission has just confirmed that Spain will allow UK tourists in from 21st June, because although we have left the EU, The Uk is still 'in' until the end of December.

I could have left my ferry booked for July 4th. So unless the world ends. Permanent move in Aug is a go...


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## Isobella

France and Germany have opened borders to UK too. Don’t know what the restrictions are though.


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## Tigerlillie

Isobella said:


> France and Germany have opened borders to UK too. Don’t know what the restrictions are though.


A little info here:

https://www.france24.com/en/2020061...-for-eu-travel-as-members-chart-sundry-course

I can't seem to find anything else (apart from other articles reiterating the same thing with minuscule details) that gives more information.


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## 95995

Tigerlillie said:


> Oh it will be, of that I have absolutely no doubt and according to many sources it's already becoming a problem.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52807526
> 
> This in Dorset UK:
> 
> https://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/18469675.ppe-littered-across-weymouth-risk-health/
> 
> This across the World:
> 
> From Hawaii: https://www.thegardenisland.com/2020/05/08/hawaii-news/new-kind-of-litter/
> 
> Just type ppe litter worldwide into your browser


Hmmm, disinfecting beaches in France, the massive use of bleach in Spain (even in areas with very few cases), all of these things are really major threats to the environment and AFAIK are not particularly effective in containing the virus, or at least I have been unable to find a genuine scientific report that indicates that it is.


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## 95995

Tigerlillie said:


> A little info here:
> 
> https://www.france24.com/en/2020061...-for-eu-travel-as-members-chart-sundry-course
> 
> I can't seem to find anything else (apart from other articles reiterating the same thing with minuscule details) that gives more information.


As far as I have been able to ascertain, Brits travelling to France this week will be *requested *to self-quarantine for 14 days.  

However I believe there was a decision from Constitutional court, that enforced quarantine is unconstitutional here.


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## Tigerlillie

EverHopeful said:


> Hmmm, *disinfecting beaches* *in France*, the massive use of bleach in Spain (even in areas with very few cases), all of these things are really major threats to the environment and AFAIK are not particularly effective in containing the virus, or at least I have been unable to find a genuine scientific report that indicates that it is.


This was done in Spain as well:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...spray-bleach-children-andalusia-a9491641.html

The people that sanctioned this have apologised. 

For what that's worth I am utterly clueless. Perhaps a little research and due diligence would have been appropriate, after all, it's not like the idiots are in charge of the asylum is it. .... is it?


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## 95995

Tigerlillie said:


> This was done in Spain as well:
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...spray-bleach-children-andalusia-a9491641.html
> 
> The people that sanctioned this have apologised.
> 
> For what that's worth I am utterly clueless. Perhaps a little research and due diligence would have been appropriate, *after all, it's not like the idiots are in charge of the asylum is it. .... is it?*


It is and they are  

But Cannes and Nice - you would expect those wealthy communes to have a bit more sense.

Spain seems ro have some kind of love affair with bleach (though you have to bear ib mind that Spain in very many ways is still a developing nation, even if it is not classed as such), and it seems to me that many British expats in Spain didn't have a problem with it, some even applauded it.


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## xabiaxica

There is nothing in today's BOE about borders opening to anyone on 21/6. It reiterates 30/6 as the end of this current estado de alarma. 

https://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2020/06/15/pdfs/BOE-A-2020-6107.pdf

Let's see what tomorrow's brings


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## Pipeman

The BBC News is reporting UK Tourists can gain entry from 21st June


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## Love Karma

Pipeman said:


> The BBC News is reporting UK Tourists can gain entry from 21st June


Yes and the British Embassy in Madrid tweeted that the U.K is included in the list of countries permitted to enter from 21st June


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## Pesky Wesky

EverHopeful said:


> It is and they are
> 
> But Cannes and Nice - you would expect those wealthy communes to have a bit more sense.
> 
> Spain seems ro have some kind of love affair with bleach (though you have to bear ib mind that Spain in very many ways is still a developing nation, even if it is not classed as such), and it seems to me that many British expats in Spain didn't have a problem with it, some even applauded it.


Hmmm...
It was at one time, and perhaps when you were here, "a developing nation" within Europe, but there are many ways in which Spain outshines other European nations. My daughter was in a state run "Escuela Infantil" 25 years ago that was the envy of all my British friends for example. It was excellent and still is. The national health service here too, when not over run by Covid 19 is not imperfect, but is very well run with high standard care, recognised by many on this forum.
I do agree though that Spain loves its bleach. In my town they sprayed once with bleach and once with something else


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## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hmmm...
> It was at one time, and perhaps when you were here, "a developing nation" within Europe, but there are many ways in which Spain outshines other European nations. My daughter was in a state run "Escuela Infantil" 25 years ago that was the envy of all my British friends for example. It was excellent and still is. The national health service here too, when not over run by Covid 19 is not imperfect, but is very well run with high standard care, recognised by many on this forum.
> *I do agree though that Spain loves its bleach. *In my town they sprayed once with bleach and once with something else


and ammonia (amoniaco) and people will use it to wash down where animals have urinated and since proteins in urine degrade to ammonia anyway, it only attracts more animal attention.


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## Williams2

Pipeman said:


> The BBC News is reporting UK Tourists can gain entry from 21st June


Only for the Spain's Foreign Affairs Minister, Arancha González Laya to come back 
and say Spain's not lifting the 2 week quarantine for UK visitors and UK returnee´s
to Spain until the UK does the same.
So yes the Brit's can come but have to self-isolate for 2 weeks upon arrival in Spain
from the 21st June, according to what's said below.

BBC News - Confusion over Spain rules for travellers from the UK


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## Overandout

xabiaxica said:


> There is nothing in today's BOE about borders opening to anyone on 21/6. It reiterates 30/6 as the end of this current estado de alarma.
> 
> https://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2020/06/15/pdfs/BOE-A-2020-6107.pdf
> 
> Let's see what tomorrow's brings


Just a note to clarify that the State of Alarm ends 21st June, not 30th.

"El estado de alarma declarado por el Real Decreto 463/2020, de 14 de marzo, se
ha prorrogado en España hasta el 21 de junio a las 00:00 horas mediante el Real
Decreto 555/2020, de 5 de junio"


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## 95995

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hmmm...
> It was at one time, and perhaps when you were here, "a developing nation" within Europe, but there are many ways in which Spain outshines other European nations. My daughter was in a state run "Escuela Infantil" 25 years ago that was the envy of all my British friends for example. It was excellent and still is. The national health service here too, when not over run by Covid 19 is not imperfect, but is very well run with high standard care, recognised by many on this forum.
> I do agree though that Spain loves its bleach. In my town they sprayed once with bleach and once with something else


Well IIRC, even when Spain was classified as a developing country, its schools rated well internationally. The national health service is also better in Spain than in France and pay rates are higher (though over 40 years ago the national health service functioned pretty well). But if you set aside certain areas such as Barcelona and Madrid, there is still a hell of a lot of extreme poverty. Note too that places like Barcelona were doing pretty damn well over 40 years ago.


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## Pesky Wesky

EverHopeful said:


> Well IIRC, even when Spain was classified as a developing country, its schools rated well internationally. The national health service is also better in Spain than in France and pay rates are higher (though over 40 years ago the national health service functioned pretty well). But if you set aside certain areas such as Barcelona and Madrid, there is still a hell of a lot of extreme poverty. Note too that places like Barcelona were doing pretty damn well over 40 years ago.


 The schools in Spain do not rate well internationally at all. Spain is at the top of the table for school drop outs for example and bottom for level of English... I forget what the name of the report that compares schools in Europe, begins with P, but Spain does not fare well on that report.
https://www.lavanguardia.com/vida/f...a-abandono-escolar-espana-nivel-mas-bajo.html


> La tasa de abandono escolar temprano en España, el porcentaje de jóvenes de entre 18 a 24 años que tiene como máximo el título de enseñanza secundaria obligatoria, descendió seis décimas en 2019 hasta situarse en el 17,3%, la cifra más baja de este siglo, que comenzó con porcentajes superiores al 30%.
> *Sin embargo, la cifra continúa estando lejos de los objetivos marcados por la Comisión Europea.* En concreto, para España, se pide un 15% para este 2020, de manera que sería necesario reducir la tasa de abandono escolar en más de dos puntos.


 As far as poverty goes, I'm not sure, but is it very much different to the UK or France? Perhaps you're talking about rural poverty, but again I don't think that's the case nowadays although it certainly was in the past.


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## 95995

Pesky Wesky said:


> The schools in Spain do not rate well internationally at all. Spain is at the top of the table for school drop outs for example and bottom for level of English... I forget what the name of the report that compares schools in Europe, begins with P, but Spain does not fare well on that report.
> https://www.lavanguardia.com/vida/f...a-abandono-escolar-espana-nivel-mas-bajo.html


I was really talking about 40/50 years ago, a time when Spain was still classified as a developing country.


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## Joppa

Pesky Wesky said:


> The schools in Spain do not rate well internationally at all. Spain is at the top of the table for school drop outs for example and bottom for level of English... I forget what the name of the report that compares schools in Europe, begins with P, but Spain does not fare well on that report.
> https://www.lavanguardia.com/vida/f...a-abandono-escolar-espana-nivel-mas-bajo.html


Pisa Report: https://www.oecd.org/pisa/


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## 95995

Joppa said:


> Pisa Report: https://www.oecd.org/pisa/


I thought most of the world was aware of the Pisa Reports - the tests were first conducted in 2000 and are an attempt to compare education across countries.


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## Pesky Wesky

Joppa said:


> Pisa Report: https://www.oecd.org/pisa/


That's the one!


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## Beach buddy

*Airport Rules*

All flight arrival passengers from Monday will need to fill in a form. Temperature will be taken and passengers will be subjected to a visual test. If they look suspect in any way they will be sent to see a Dr at the airport. Make sure your friends, family or clients know these rules as announced today.


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## Megsmum

Beach buddy said:


> All flight arrival passengers from Monday will need to fill in a form. Temperature will be taken and passengers will be subjected to a visual test. If they look suspect in any way they will be sent to see a Dr at the airport. Make sure your friends, family or clients know these rules as announced today.


Do you have an official link please


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## xabiaxica

Beach buddy said:


> All flight arrival passengers from Monday will need to fill in a form. Temperature will be taken and passengers will be subjected to a visual test. If they look suspect in any way they will be sent to see a Dr at the airport. Make sure your friends, family or clients know these rules as announced today.





Megsmum said:


> Do you have an official link please


I read last night that Illa had made an announcement along those lines yesterday. 

I doubt it will be in anything official yet but I found this among others

https://www.lavanguardia.com/vida/20200619/481840009062/temperatura-observacion-puertos-aeropuertos-turistas.html


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## Beach buddy

Megsmum said:


> Do you have an official link please


My link is not official but from a friend in Malaga who runs tours and was sent this to inform his clients who are booked to come over.


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## baldilocks

Here is El País English edition:
https://english.elpais.com/spanish_...l-reopen-borders-to-eu-states-including-the-u


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## baldilocks

And another interesting article from El País:
https://english.elpais.com/the_glob...demic.html#?sma=newsletter_inenglish20200619m


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## Alcalaina

baldilocks said:


> Here is El País English edition:
> https://english.elpais.com/spanish_...l-reopen-borders-to-eu-states-including-the-u


I couldn't open this link but I think this one is more recent, published today. 

https://english.elpais.com/society/...new-normality-on-sunday-what-will-change.html



> When can people travel to other European countries? Mobility restrictions within the European Union and Schengen area countries also come to an end on Sunday. The EU had called on countries to reopen on June 15, but the Spanish prime minister, Pedro Sánchez, announced that the country would wait until June 21. There is one exception: the border with Portugal will not reopen until July 1.
> 
> * For the United Kingdom, the Spanish government is considering implementing a quarantine as a reciprocal measure, given that travelers arriving in that country must self-isolate for two weeks. The British government is considering revising this measure, but not before June 29.* The Spanish foreign minister is also holding conversations with the French government to manage the difference in dates for reopening the border, given that the neighboring country is planning to open its borders on June 22.
> 
> And what about the rest of the world? The Spanish prime minister said on Sunday that borders with the rest of the world will begin to open on July 1 on a gradual basis. For this to happen, there are a number of requirements: an epidemiological situation that is similar to or better than that of EU member states; certain health conditions in the origin, journey and destination; and reciprocal acceptance of travelers from the EU.


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## 95995

Alcalaina said:


> I couldn't open this link but I think this one is more recent, published today.
> 
> https://english.elpais.com/society/...new-normality-on-sunday-what-will-change.html


The media in France, the UK and elsewhere has reported that Spain will open its borders tomorrow and lift the quarantine requirement, indeed as a consequence France has brought forward the opening of its border with Spain by 24 hours 

https://france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/occitanie/pyrenees-orientales/perpignan/deconfinement-espagne-rouvre-ses-frontieres-france-ce-samedi-20-juin-minuit-1844028.html


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## Alcalaina

EverHopeful said:


> The media in France, the UK and elsewhere has reported that Spain will open its borders tomorrow and lift the quarantine requirement, indeed as a consequence France has brought forward the opening of its border with Spain by 24 hours
> 
> https://france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/occitanie/pyrenees-orientales/perpignan/deconfinement-espagne-rouvre-ses-frontieres-france-ce-samedi-20-juin-minuit-1844028.html


It will be interesting to see how much cross-border movement there actually is.

I know this is just anecdotal but none of my friends either here or in the UK are planning to travel before September at the earliest.


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## Megsmum

Alcalaina said:


> It will be interesting to see how much cross-border movement there actually is.
> 
> I know this is just anecdotal but none of my friends either here or in the UK are planning to travel before September at the earliest.


Once I am home I will be going nowhere until next Easter at the earliest.


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## Isobella

Alcalaina said:


> It will be interesting to see how much cross-border movement there actually is.
> 
> I know this is just anecdotal but none of my friends either here or in the UK are planning to travel before September at the earliest.


I think the flying is the worst part. No middle seat left free, people taking off masks to eat and drink....then the predicted queues at arrival. We may visit daughter in Paris but will drive over and maybe spend a few days in Nice too, not decided. Looking at November for a long holiday, :fingerscrossed:

the young who go to Benidorm etc won't bother about the rules, just like they didn't in UK and Germany. I expect there will be trouble ahead.

Another thing I saw on news review. Plastic gloves to eat, still serving buffets.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/travel/11914607/brit-holidays-spain-july-4-temperature-checks/


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## MatchOffice

Isobella said:


> I think the flying is the worst part. No middle seat left free, people taking off masks to eat and drink....then the predicted queues at arrival. We may visit daughter in Paris but will drive over and maybe spend a few days in Nice too, not decided. Looking at November for a long holiday, :fingerscrossed:


Yes, it's awful, first, you are told to buy a middle seat, and then all the seats are bought! And you can't sit together even if you're a family.


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## Phil Squares

My oldest son and his wife are expecting their first child around the beginning of July. This will be our first grandchild and in spite of the mandatory quarantine in the UK, we are going to head over around the 14th. Hopefully, the quarantine will be lifted by then. If not, we just make do with what we can do and get on with it. Our daughter lives in London si the plan is to spend 3-4 days in Brighton and the go up to London and visit her. Interestingly, the UK government has no clue if and when you leave the UK.


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## fortrose52

For goodness sake. This is all airyfiry. What a mess. And in Scotland, where I live, the rules are much slower and cautious. Wales and NI are different too. But we can all cross the border and do whatever. What is going on?


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## Alcalaina

fortrose52 said:


> For goodness sake. This is all airyfiry. What a mess. And in Scotland, where I live, the rules are much slower and cautious. Wales and NI are different too. But we can all cross the border and do whatever. What is going on?


What is going on is that some governments have decided that a failed economy is more risky than furtherCovid-19 outbreaks, which they think they can now control. 

We can cross borders but we still have to observe the rules of the country we are visiting. People coming to Spain from the UK will have to wear face masks if they can't guarantee to keep a distance of 1.5 meters from others, for example.

Basically the onus has been transferred to the individual; rather than follow rules set by governments you must decide what makes you feel safe and behave accordingly.


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## xabiaxica

MatchOffice said:


> Yes, it's awful, first, you are told to buy a middle seat, and then all the seats are bought! And you can't sit together even if you're a family.


People who have flown to Spain over the past few days are reporting that planes are about 30% full, & that mask wearing is obligatory. 


It would be a bit of a pita for them to have to check if people live together in order to allow them to sit together - & what's a couple of hours in the scheme of things?


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## kaipa

Just watching La Sexta and there are now only 2 áreas where there are no out breaks. They are saying that it looks like a 2nd wave is building up fast
Another 250 contagions in last 24 hours and starting to grow exponentially. I imagine that the government are going to close the borders sooner than later.


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## Love Karma

kaipa said:


> Just watching La Sexta and there are now only 2 áreas where there are no out breaks. They are saying that it looks like a 2nd wave is building up fast
> Another 250 contagions in last 24 hours and starting to grow exponentially. I imagine that the government are going to close the borders sooner than later.


Yes that seems to be the case and it wouldn't surprise me if the borders as you say will be shut and flights stopped again very shortly if this growth continues.


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## Alcalaina

kaipa said:


> Just watching La Sexta and there are now only 2 áreas where there are no out breaks. They are saying that it looks like a 2nd wave is building up fast
> Another 250 contagions in last 24 hours and starting to grow exponentially. I imagine that the government are going to close the borders sooner than later.


Which country are you talking about?


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## Megsmum

If borders are open now to a few countries I can’t see that changing mainly due to economic reasons. 

Are you talking U.K. or Spain, this being the U.K. thread?

I think what people have to understand that outbreaks are going to occur, there will be a second wave, life for the majority will go on. This is the new normality I’m unsure what people want, another total lockdown. More economic stress on an already stressed system and what are the numbers. In the U.K. the press reported 300% increases in some towns turns out went from 1 to 4 cases why are people surprised at outbreaks?


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> Just watching La Sexta and there are now only 2 áreas where there are no out breaks. They are saying that it looks like a 2nd wave is building up fast
> Another 250 contagions in last 24 hours and starting to grow exponentially. I imagine that the government are going to close the borders sooner than later.


Where is that 250 cases, one area the whole country? Stating another 250 cases is, in terms of figures, meaningless, out of how many tested cases, is it isolated in one área or spread over a whole country?


----------



## kaipa

Spain


----------



## Williams2

Megsmum said:


> If borders are open now to a few countries I can’t see that changing mainly due to economic reasons.
> 
> Are you talking U.K. or Spain, this being the U.K. thread?
> 
> I think what people have to understand that outbreaks are going to occur, there will be a second wave, life for the majority will go on. This is the new normality I’m unsure what people want, another total lockdown. More economic stress on an already stressed system and what are the numbers. In the U.K. the press reported 300% increases in some towns turns out went from 1 to 4 cases why are people surprised at outbreaks?


I reckon kaipa is talking about the spike in Covid19 cases in the Catalonian region of Segrià,
if so then there's already a thread on Spanish local lockdowns in the Spanish interest side of the 
expatforum called:

Local lockdowns - the Catalonian region of Segrià goes into lockdown


----------



## kaipa

Megsmum said:


> kaipa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just watching La Sexta and there are now only 2 áreas where there are no out breaks. They are saying that it looks like a 2nd wave is building up fast
> Another 250 contagions in last 24 hours and starting to grow exponentially. I imagine that the government are going to close the borders sooner than later.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where is that 250 cases, one area the whole country? Stating another 250 cases is, in terms of figures, meaningless, out of how many tested cases, is it isolated in one área or spread over a whole country?
Click to expand...

Last 24 hours in Spain. I think what is now worrying the authorities is that the number is increasing daily even though they are testing and confining people. They said on the news that the latest outbreak ( somewhere in north) was result of a wedding party in a local bar and the owner was in tears insisting she had been very careful and that now her whole business is closed again and she and her family are confined


----------



## kaipa

There are showing a map on tv on Spain and it's all red apart from La rioja and one other region. Everywhere else has now recorded contagions. No wonder Scotland is quarantining all travellers from Spain


----------



## Love Karma

kaipa said:


> There are showing a map on tv on Spain and it's all red apart from La rioja and one other region. Everywhere else has now recorded contagions. No wonder Scotland is quarantining all travellers from Spain


Just saw that also and now Extremadura has joined Catalonia in making Face Masks Compulsory.


----------



## kaipa

Looks like Baleares are also about to introduce it too. Plus fines of 3.000 euros for anyone organising events over 70 people. Hope people going to Ibiza this year are being made aware there are no clubs open


----------



## kaipa

Sorry I have the number wrong its 250 in Segria alone in last 24 hours. So overall it must be much higher. I think I saw that it's nearly equivalent to the levels we got in the beginning of May


----------



## Megsmum

What is the hospital admission rates and are death rates rising? Until there is a vaccine this is all par for the course, yes it is worrying but it is what happens when you have a virus with no vaccine that transmits easily.


----------



## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> What is the hospital admission rates and are death rates rising? Until there is a vaccine this is all par for the course, yes it is worrying but it is what happens when you have a virus with no vaccine that transmits easily.


Our graphs look very similar to those from a couple of weeks before the lockdown as far as those figures are concerned. 

The main difference now is that almost half of all the cases are confined to a smallish area in Catalunya.


----------



## Megsmum

xabiaxica said:


> Our graphs look very similar to those from a couple of weeks before the lockdown as far as those figures are concerned.
> 
> The main difference now is that almost half of all the cases are confined to a smallish area in Catalunya.


Yes, I just had a look at the numbers. In my region it’s one outbreak (Extremadura) which is apparently under control and the measures taken for masks is imho sensible until they ensure all cases connected to the outbreak area have been contained. These outbreaks are going to occur in isolated regions due to a multitude of reasons. Like the Leicester outbreak in U.K. I was chatting to a friend of my daughters, who is a critical care nurse in Leicester, they haven’t seen any real increase of demand on them but simply testing has shown more cases. The time to worry is when hospitals admissions and daily death tolls start to head up to the peak.

This is, the new norm I am afraid


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> Looks like Baleares are also about to introduce it too. Plus fines of 3.000 euros for anyone organising events over 70 people. Hope people going to Ibiza this year are being made aware there are no clubs open


I wouldn't be surprised if it were introduced country-wide, whether comunidad by comunidad, or as a country-wide declaration, with so many people apparently thinking that 1.5m is about 30cm. Easier to control for the police, too. 

We live on a busy street, & while the people walking along it might be more than 1.5m apart, you can almost guarantee that someone will be walking - or stopped for a chat - right outside our street door unmasked, at the very moment you open it, so the mask goes on before you open the door.


----------



## Megsmum

Asking for husband. Is the wearing of masks also necessary if in the car solo?
I can’t see it on the instructions but wanted to check?


----------



## kaipa

One thing about these brotes is that the positive are mostly asymptomatic and younger persons


----------



## stevesainty

Megsmum, xabiachica, kaipa, where are you all getting your information from about the outbreaks please? We are in C. Valencia and are using gva.es for info in our area but is there a national site with details for the whole of Spain?


----------



## Lynn R

stevesainty said:


> Megsmum, xabiachica, kaipa, where are you all getting your information from about the outbreaks please? We are in C. Valencia and are using gva.es for info in our area but is there a national site with details for the whole of Spain?


El Mundo publishes quite detailed information for the whole of the country:-

https://www.elmundo.es/ciencia-y-salud/salud/2020/06/29/5ef98f9f21efa0b82b8b4598.html


----------



## Megsmum

stevesainty said:


> Megsmum, xabiachica, kaipa, where are you all getting your information from about the outbreaks please? We are in C. Valencia and are using gva.es for info in our area but is there a national site with details for the whole of Spain?


Via various news outlets


----------



## kaipa

stevesainty said:


> Megsmum, xabiachica, kaipa, where are you all getting your information from about the outbreaks please? We are in C. Valencia and are using gva.es for info in our area but is there a national site with details for the whole of Spain?


La sexta news


----------



## baldilocks

El País


----------



## Lynn R

Within the next few days, Andalucia will be joining the list of those areas in Spain where wearing a facemask in public will be compulsory at all times (except when eating or drinking in a restaurant or bar) whether social distancing can be maintained or not. I must say I am not relishing the thought of going for long walks in the heat and having to wear one even if there is no one else around.

https://www.diariodesevilla.es/anda...alucia-rebrotes-coronavirus_0_1481852006.html


----------



## Love Karma

Lynn R said:


> Within the next few days, Andalucia will be joining the list of those areas in Spain where wearing a facemask in public will be compulsory at all times (except when eating or drinking in a restaurant or bar) whether social distancing can be maintained or not. I must say I am not relishing the thought of going for long walks in the heat and having to wear one even if there is no one else around.
> 
> https://www.diariodesevilla.es/anda...alucia-rebrotes-coronavirus_0_1481852006.html


Surely there will be some exceptions such as the Beach?


----------



## kaipa

Love Karma said:


> Lynn R said:
> 
> 
> 
> Within the next few days, Andalucia will be joining the list of those areas in Spain where wearing a facemask in public will be compulsory at all times (except when eating or drinking in a restaurant or bar) whether social distancing can be maintained or not. I must say I am not relishing the thought of going for long walks in the heat and having to wear one even if there is no one else around.
> 
> https://www.diariodesevilla.es/anda...alucia-rebrotes-coronavirus_0_1481852006.html
> 
> 
> 
> Surely there will be some exceptions such as the Beach?
Click to expand...

I think it includes the beach as it says in all public outdoor area.


----------



## Lynn R

Love Karma said:


> Surely there will be some exceptions such as the Beach?


In Cataluña I understand that they don't have to be worn at the beach or around hotel swimming pools, but I don't see why those are less risky areas than walking in an area where there are no or hardly any people. I suppose we will have to wait for the actual decree or whatever it is called to be published, looks like it will be some time between Monday and Wednesday.


----------



## Isobella

This in BMJ mentions side effects of wearing a mask.

https://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/369/bmj.m2003.full.pdf


----------



## Lynn R

In this article there is a little more detail and says they need not be worn when exercising in the open air (does walking count, I wonder?), or on the beach when swimming or sunbathing, as well as in bars and restaurants.

https://as.com/diarioas/2020/07/11/actualidad/1594468052_042561.html


----------



## Megsmum

My only issue with people wearing masks is simply that the majority do not know how to wear them effectively, constantly touch their masks etc.


----------



## Lynn R

Megsmum said:


> My only issue with people wearing masks is simply that the majority do not know how to wear them effectively, constantly touch their masks etc.


I find it very difficut not to when I have sweat running down my face, getting into my eyes and underneath the mask. I get very hot just wearing one in the supermarket which makes my breathing get shallower and I find myself getting a bit panicky until I can get outside. I don't know why they make me so hot inside a shop, where there is air conditioning, but they do. On public transport they don't really bother me, strangely, and that involves having to wear one for longer periods. Might be easier if I am sitting still.


----------



## baldilocks

Isobella said:


> This in BMJ mentions side effects of wearing a mask.
> 
> https://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/369/bmj.m2003.full.pdf


and the side effects of NOT wearing a mask??????????????????????????????


----------



## Love Karma

Megsmum said:


> My only issue with people wearing masks is simply that the majority do not know how to wear them effectively, constantly touch their masks etc.


I agree that the majority aren't trained in how to use them correctly but in my opinion at least something is better than no mask at all, or am I being optimistic and that in reality incorrect wearing renders them totally ineffective and not fit for purpose and people will be more at risk due to having a false sense of security?


----------



## mrypg9

Every morning early and late evening I walk my dog out of our cul-de-sac country lane where ours are the only two houses on one large enclosed piece of land. I walk along other lanes mostly with no houses or if houses derelict. I see horses and goats, occasionally sheep but no people.

During lockdown I disobeyed the 50m distance from house rule because although my dogs have a lot of land to roam on the younger one loves a change of scenery so we walked for about a half hour. I didn't wear a mask but had one in my pocket. I saw about three passing cars but no people over the whole lockdown period. The situation will be the same from Monday. Seems unnecessary to have to wear a mask and I have hay fever so it's not very pleasant coughing sneezing and sniffling into a mask.
I think I'll do as before and take my chances. Haven't seen a police car here since I moved here in December 2018.

But I'll do the right thing everywhere else as I have done up to now.


----------



## Megsmum

Love Karma said:


> I agree that the majority aren't trained in how to use them correctly but in my opinion at least something is better than no mask at all, or am I being optimistic and that in reality incorrect wearing renders them totally ineffective and not fit for purpose and people will be more at risk due to having a false sense of security?


Oh I agree, something is better than nothing but I think it gives a false sense of security, for me it’s more about governments, everywhere, trying to be seen doing the right thing. I wonder of the Eastern culture of mask wearing will now be one the new norms in the west?


----------



## Alcalaina

Lynn R said:


> In this article there is a little more detail and says they need not be worn when exercising in the open air (does walking count, I wonder?), or on the beach when swimming or sunbathing, as well as in bars and restaurants.
> 
> https://as.com/diarioas/2020/07/11/actualidad/1594468052_042561.html


Details will be announced on Monday and come into effect 48 hours later. Walking is definitely exercising as long as you're wearing the right clothes and looking purposeful, though why anyone would want to exercise outdoors in the heat I can't imagine.

I'll carry on doing what I do now, wear it round my chin and pull it up over my nose when I'm approaching other people. Might upset the hygiene police but I do wash my hands frequently and put on a clean mask every time I go out (which isn't often).


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Details will be announced on Monday and come into effect 48 hours later. Walking is definitely exercising as long as you're wearing the right clothes and looking purposeful, though why anyone would want to exercise outdoors in the heat I can't imagine.
> 
> I'll carry on doing what I do now, wear it round my chin and pull it up over my nose when I'm approaching other people. Might upset the hygiene police but I do wash my hands frequently and put on a clean mask every time I go out (which isn't often).


Same here although I 've recently started going out and having visitors more . 

Probably a silly thought.......but can dogs catch and transmit the virus, do you know? I don't fancy the idea of masking my Choco.


----------



## 95995

mrypg9 said:


> Same here although I 've recently started going out and having visitors more .
> 
> Probably a silly thought.......*but can dogs catch and transmit the virus, do you know? I don't fancy the idea of masking my Choco.*


*
*

From what I have read on the subject the answer is one of the following


No
It is possible but extremely rare
It is not known to have ever occurred
No one knows

Given the above, I have no intention whatsoever of putting a mask on my dog.


----------



## mrypg9

EverHopeful said:


> [/B]
> 
> From what I have read on the subject the answer is one of the following
> 
> 
> No
> It is possible but extremely rare
> It is not known to have ever occurred
> No one knows
> 
> Given the above, I have no intention whatsoever of putting a mask on my dog.


Thanks for that. Like you, I wouldn't mask my dog. He wouldn't allow it anyway.

If ever there were such a requirement, I would simply restrict his walks to our local fairly isolated area and not take him to other more populated places like our riverside or beach walks so he wouldn't be masked. Hounds need to sniff, as you probably know.


----------



## 95995

mrypg9 said:


> Thanks for that. Like you, I wouldn't mask my dog. He wouldn't allow it anyway.
> 
> If ever there were such a requirement, I would simply restrict his walks to our local fairly isolated area and not take him to other more populated places like our riverside or beach walks so he wouldn't be masked. *Hounds need to sniff, as you probably know.*


Indeed, my ex and I had a beagle in Australia - we got him when he was nearly 2 and he had been raised to hunt rabbits (rabbits being a major problem there). Nose to the ground for miles on end, to the point that we had to be careful to treat his poor nose every time we came home, but for him nothing else mattered, the scent had to be followed, or found again when it disappeared. But he was an absolutely adorable dog.


----------



## Isobella

Agree. Dogs need to pant too in hot weather, could be harmful.


----------



## baldilocks

*RE-escalation*

Masks mandatory at all times in Andalucía

https://www.euroweeklynews.com/2020...weekly-news-latest-news-saturday#.XwsFD21Lguo


----------



## 95995

Isobella said:


> Agree. Dogs need to pant too in hot weather, could be harmful.


Absolutely - it is a dog's equivalent of sweating (they don't sweat) and allows them to cool down a little.


----------



## Lynn R

I haven't seen mention in any of the press coverage of the confirmation of Andalucia's decision to make masks compulsory from midnight on Wednesday of any exceptions eg when exercising in the open air or on the beach. This report, for instance, says they must be worn in all public places.

https://www.diariosur.es/andalucia/mascarillas-obligatorias-andalucia-20200713140021-nt.html


----------



## baldilocks

Lynn R said:


> I haven't seen mention in any of the press coverage of the confirmation of Andalucia's decision to make masks compulsory from midnight on Wednesday of any exceptions eg when exercising in the open air or on the beach. This report, for instance, says they must be worn in all public places.
> 
> https://www.diariosur.es/andalucia/mascarillas-obligatorias-andalucia-20200713140021-nt.html


Apologies for the source:
https://www.euroweeklynews.com/2020...weekly-news-latest-news-saturday#.XwxZqm1Lguo


----------



## Lynn R

According to this report in ABCSevilla today, we won't find out about any possible 
exceptions until tomorrow.

"Sin embargo, las dudas por ahora son más que las certezas: ¿Será obligatoria en el coche? ¿Deberá llevarse en la playa? ¿En una terraza de un bar? Todos esos puntos, se espera, quedarán aclarados este martes cuando el Gobierno andaluz desgrane la medida de uso obligatorio de mascarillas en Andalucía."


----------



## Beach buddy

Posted on the COVID post...announced on tv Presidente of Andalucia Moreno has announced that masks will be worn at all times when out in the open even when able to socially distance as of midnight Tuesday(exception for eating and drinking naturally.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> I haven't seen mention in any of the press coverage of the confirmation of Andalucia's decision to make masks compulsory from midnight on Wednesday of any exceptions eg when exercising in the open air or on the beach. This report, for instance, says they must be worn in all public places.
> 
> https://www.diariosur.es/andalucia/mascarillas-obligatorias-andalucia-20200713140021-nt.html


There's been plenty on TV and radio news


----------



## Lynn R

Pesky Wesky said:


> There's been plenty on TV and radio news


About any exception to where or in what circumstances masks must be worn in Andalucia?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> About any exception to where or in what circumstances masks must be worn in Andalucia?


 No, just about where in Spain you will be obliged to wear a mask.
Sorry I must have misunderstood your post.
My post sounded a bit blunt, wasn't supposed to be...


----------



## 95995

Lynn R said:


> About any exception to where or in what circumstances masks must be worn in Andalucia?


See post #99 by Beach buddy.


----------



## Alcalaina

Lynn R said:


> About any exception to where or in what circumstances masks must be worn in Andalucia?


Still waiting for the Junta to issue its Boletin.


----------



## Lynn R

Alcalaina said:


> Still waiting for the Junta to issue its Boletin.


Although press reports this morning, after the meeting, have JdeA representatives saying that they must be worn on the beach (unless actually bathing in the sea), walking around, everywhere in open or closed public spaces except for eating.


----------



## baldilocks

Lynn R said:


> Although press reports this morning, after the meeting, have JdeA representatives saying that they must be worn on the beach (unless actually bathing in the sea), walking around, everywhere in open or closed public spaces except for eating.


Will drinkers have to use flexible straws to get round the mask?


----------



## 95995

Lynn R said:


> Although press reports this morning, after the meeting, have JdeA representatives saying that they must be worn on the beach (unless actually bathing in the sea), walking around, everywhere in open or closed public spaces except for eating.


And except for drinking I believe, which is also pretty hard to do when wearing a mask 

Still, it may well be that the formal Boletin has yet to be published, though I would pretty much guarantee it will carry the appropriate date.


----------



## Lynn R

EverHopeful said:


> And except for drinking I believe, which is also pretty hard to do when wearing a mask
> 
> Still, it may well be that the formal Boletin has yet to be published, though I would pretty much guarantee it will carry the appropriate date.


Drinking was not mentioned in the JdeA spokesperson's remarks, only "la hora de comer" so that is why I did not mention it, otherwise somebody or other would have been sure to pipe up "he didn't say anything about drinking".


----------



## Lynn R

Version whatever it is by now - people practising sport individually in the open air will not have to wear a mask, people sitting on the beach with members of their own household, or children under 6, won't have to wear a mask but people walking along the beach will ....

Face masks must be worn in all public spaces in Andalucía from Wednesday, even on the beach . surinenglish.com

This is just going to be a piece of cake to enforce, isn't it?


----------



## kaipa

TBH I think that the compulsory masks wearing is probably being led by behavioural science than viral science in that its seen as positive action that everyone needs to demonstrate that they are participating in so as to maximise responsibility in those activities that are known to be the source of recent outbreaks, which are things like close gatherings eg weddings, botellons, parties etc.


----------



## 95995

Lynn R said:


> Drinking was not mentioned in the JdeA spokesperson's remarks, only "la hora de comer" so that is why I did not mention it, otherwise somebody or other would have been sure to pipe up "he didn't say anything about drinking".


Oh, that was very vague, especially "la hora de comer".


----------



## 95995

Well, I agree with another poster in that it is primarily a behavioural thing - an attempt to change behaviours and to have wearing a mask considered totally normal. So perhaps not so much about policing the measures, not to say that police won't be out there nor that there aren't fines, though the latter might only be applied to flagrant or repeated breaches.


----------



## kaipa

As far as I can see alot depends on which region you are in. Murcia you dont need to wear on beaches but in other regions it's more strict. I wish they would concentrate on those activities they know are where outbreaks occur. For example, in Pamplona the outbreak is traced to groups celebrating St fermin where they were drinking and ignoring social distancing. So far there have been no outbreaks through passersby in streets, supermarkets, beaches etc


----------



## Lynn R

kaipa said:


> As far as I can see alot depends on which region you are in. Murcia you dont need to wear on beaches but in other regions it's more strict. I wish they would concentrate on those activities they know are where outbreaks occur. For example, in Pamplona the outbreak is traced to groups celebrating St fermin where they were drinking and ignoring social distancing. So far there have been no outbreaks through passersby in streets, supermarkets, beaches etc


Yes, exactly. We were told in the press this morning that half of all the new outbreaks in Spain have stemmed from family gatherings of one kind or another. A major one in Granada province (which has spread to some people in Málaga province including two new cases in my own town) happened because people were infected at a funeral wake attended by some 500 people - which was illegal but the police did nothing to stop it.


----------



## 95995

kaipa said:


> As far as I can see alot depends on which region you are in. Murcia you dont need to wear on beaches but in other regions it's more strict. I wish they would concentrate on those activities they know are where outbreaks occur. For example, in Pamplona the outbreak is traced to groups celebrating St fermin where they were drinking and ignoring social distancing. So far there have been no outbreaks through passersby in streets, supermarkets, beaches etc


Yet there are huge numbers of people in Murcia who are very much for wearing masks all the time.


----------



## Alcalaina

Here’s the official document from the Junta de Andalucia on masks. Don’t have time to go through it now but will do later.

https://www.juntadeandalucia.es/eboja/2020/545/BOJA20-545-00003-7739-01_00175091.pdf


----------



## Megsmum

Lynn R said:


> Yes, exactly. We were told in the press this morning that half of all the new outbreaks in Spain have stemmed from family gatherings of one kind or another. A major one in Granada province (which has spread to some people in Málaga province including two new cases in my own town) happened because people were infected at a funeral wake attended by some 500 people - which was illegal but the police did nothing to stop it.


The outbreak in Extremadura was also from a family gathering!


----------



## Alcalaina

Alcalaina said:


> Here’s the official document from the Junta de Andalucia on masks. Don’t have time to go through it now but will do later.
> 
> https://www.juntadeandalucia.es/eboja/2020/545/BOJA20-545-00003-7739-01_00175091.pdf


So no surprises here. Wear a mask *at all times* except:


At home with your family
In a car by yourself or with other members of your household
Eating or drinking in a bar or restaurant
Swimming in the sea or a public pool
Sitting/sunbathing alone or with family members on the beach or at a pool
Practising exercise in the open air on your own (doesn't explicitly mention walking).

Fine for non-compliance is €100.


----------



## Overandout

Alcalaina said:


> So no surprises here. Wear a mask *at all times* except:
> 
> 
> At home with your family
> In a car by yourself or with other members of your household
> Eating or drinking in a bar or restaurant
> Swimming in the sea or a public pool
> Sitting/sunbathing alone or with family members on the beach or at a pool
> Practising exercise in the open air on your own (doesn't explicitly mention walking).
> 
> Fine for non-compliance is €100.


I am spending some time in a small complex in Extremadura and since Saturday there have been signs saying that the use of the masks are compulsory poolside except when in the water.
I can't say that all the guests are taking notice, but the fine here is up to 600€ I think.
We have just stopped using the area around the pool, we go straight into the water and leave as soon as we get out.


----------



## Megsmum

Overandout said:


> I am spending some time in a small complex in Extremadura and since Saturday there have been signs saying that the use of the masks are compulsory poolside except when in the water.
> I can't say that all the guests are taking notice, but the fine here is up to 600€ I think.
> We have just stopped using the area around the pool, we go straight into the water and leave as soon as we get out.


Yes. Masks are now compulsory at all times with the exception of eating and drinking. The fine is €600


----------



## Love Karma

*Face Coverings/Masks*

Now that here in Andalucía (and other regions) the requirements to wear Masks have been widened what do people here favour mask wise, any you find more comfortable than others for prolonged wear in the heat. Any recommendations? Any tips? Personally been using the blue surgical type but in this heat am using up to 3 a day


----------



## Alcalaina

I wear the ordinary blue ones, I don't find them uncomfortable but my bearded husband hates them. I've never worn one for more than about half an hour though. I believe they are supposed to be single-use but they seem to survive a few good washes in hot soapy water.


----------



## kaipa

I see that all regions are now reporting outbreaks with 400 new cases in spain in last 24 hours. It very much looks that it growing slowly again and perhaps there is a possibility they can check its pace but what seems certain is that as we head out of summer it's going to be a big challenge again


----------



## Isobella

Alcalaina said:


> I wear the ordinary blue ones, I don't find them uncomfortable but my bearded husband hates them. I've never worn one for more than about half an hour though. I believe they are supposed to be single-use but they seem to survive a few good washes in hot soapy water.


I was told not to wash them or they are not effective.


----------



## Megsmum

Unless your masks are full PPE they are simply lowering the chances of spreading any virus. Viruses can still pass through, and if they are like the ones in the picture then washing makes them ineffective, they are single use only in a medical environment.

If you want to wash them rather than throw away, then use simple cotton ones they are as effective at containing your bugs than the blue ones.

Masks, as I’m sure you all know by now, simply reduce spread, once used and washed that reduction lessens. They will not protect you they will protect others from you and what does appear to be a very asymptomatic virus. Even in the operating theatre we use masks to protect the patient from out spittle etc, if we know or think there will be contamination from patient to staff or the patient is particularly vulnerable then full PPE with splash guards are used. 

Cotton ones are, in my opinion, a better option in the heat. I’ll let you know in 22 days!


----------



## kaipa

I see in Catalonia you have to wear your mask on the beach but not while swimming. Kind of creating an absurd situation as they were showing yesterday where people were arguing about not wearing the mask to walk across sand to sea to people who walk at sea edge not wearing them to children etc. I think that there has to be a certain degree of reality here.For example Sanchez meets Macron and both maintain distance and bow for cameras then as they turn to enter building Macron nears Sanchez and pats him on back. Casado goes to Galicia to congratulate PP winner.All wear masks but huddle together embracing each other. Boris Johnson elbows colleague but breaks 1.5 metre rule. Footballers embrace and kiss with no masks because apparently football is more important than equality of responsibility. Umffff


----------



## Pesky Wesky

I bought these online, (see photo below) pack of 10, for 3 reasons
https://mrbroc.com/producto/mascarillas-para-ninos-y-adultos-con-tela-certificada-une-0065/


They are made to EU standards * especificaciones UNE0065:2020 (*which I looked up and do exist!*)
*
A donation is made and masks are donated to people in need
They are made in Spain


Not everyone's taste, but a possibility


OH bought these from Ontermon Oxfam.
https://tienda.oxfamintermon.org/es/mascarillas-higienicas-reutilizables.html


We have a small bin, like a bathroom bin on the stairs and put the dirty ones in there as we come off the street. I wash them by 



putting on rubber gloves
put them into a bowl with a little cold water and detergent
boiling the kettle and pouring the water over. That's why they are in a little cold water before, so the water they are washed in isn't actually boiling.
Leave until cool enough to handle
Rubber gloves on and rub and scrub.
Rinse taking care not to pour the dirty water over anything in the sink.
Hang out to dry
OH also bought some in a supermarket that look like crap, just very thin cotton material that you might make a summer shirt out of. I think you'd do more harm than good by wearing them.


The blue disposable ones are not recyclable so don't put them in the bins for plastic.


----------



## kaipa

Good to see that the Spanish government are putting in place plans to deal with possible near future scenarios ( unlike UK where Boris hasn't even bothered to read report about such things) Basically the Spanish government have evaluated things into 3 scenarios and the required actions for each. At the moment we are in level 1 but possibly could move to level 2 if they are unable to stem the growth level in various places. Once it grows exponentially and they are not able to trace sources we move to the 3rd scenario and that is where we dont want to go!!


----------



## kaipa

https://www.eldiario.es/sociedad/sa...-frente-rebrotes-evitar-alarma_1_6107091.html

Here's a link.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> I see that all regions are now reporting outbreaks with 400 new cases in spain in last 24 hours. It very much looks that it growing slowly again and perhaps there is a possibility they can check its pace but what seems certain is that as we head out of summer it's going to be a big challenge again


Not that I know anything about it, but 400 outbreaks to me = the virus is still here and we need precautions. In fact it seems to me that it never actually went away from Spain.


----------



## kaipa

Pesky Wesky said:


> kaipa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see that all regions are now reporting outbreaks with 400 new cases in spain in last 24 hours. It very much looks that it growing slowly again and perhaps there is a possibility they can check its pace but what seems certain is that as we head out of summer it's going to be a big challenge again
> 
> 
> 
> Not that I know anything about it, but 400 outbreaks to me = the virus is still here and we need precautions. In fact it seems to me that it never actually went away from Spain.
Click to expand...


No it never went away but it was at one point under more control than now and unfortunately the daily figures show an increase and outbreaks are in all communities


----------



## Alcalaina

Isobella said:


> I was told not to wash them or they are not effective.


OK I'll stop washing them then!


----------



## Overandout

I think that many people "wear" the masks more to avoid a fine than to protect people around them. The quality of the mask / protection is not the prime concern.

I have tried several textile masks which have probably been good quality ones but they all tend to have the elastic too short and pull on my ears too much.

I use the blue surgical ones as they are light and more comfortable. I confess that if I wear one for an hour in the street for example, I don't throw it away, I keep it in a sealed plastic bag and might reuse it several times before disposing of it.

My preferred method of protecting others from my presence is to stay away from them as it protects me also. I cross the road, or walk in the street if possible if I see people on the same pavement as me, and I always ask the groups of people chatting in doorways of passages to allow me a safe distance to pass through (they usually look at me as if I was crazy though!)


----------



## Love Karma

Megsmum said:


> Unless your masks are full PPE they are simply lowering the chances of spreading any virus. Viruses can still pass through, and if they are like the ones in the picture then washing makes them ineffective, *they are single use only in a medical environment.
> [*/QUOTE]
> 
> The one in the pic you post are the ones I have and from what I see are what a huge proportion of people are wearing here and are being sold everywhere from Farmacias to Supermarkets such as Mercadona. My question is if as you state they are only suitable in a "medical environment", are we in fact using the wrong mask to go about our daily business?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> I have tried several textile masks which have probably been good quality ones but they all tend to have the elastic too short and pull on my ears too much.


Overandout, you can get these
https://salvaorejasparamascarillas.com/
OH got them in a chemist's, 1€ for 1 or 2, can't remember. I don't think he asked for_ salva orejas_, maybe _gancho_, _extensión de plástico_...


----------



## Overandout

Love Karma said:


> Megsmum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unless your masks are full PPE they are simply lowering the chances of spreading any virus. Viruses can still pass through, and if they are like the ones in the picture then washing makes them ineffective, *they are single use only in a medical environment.
> [*/QUOTE]
> 
> The one in the pic you post are the ones I have and from what I see are what a huge proportion of people are wearing here and are being sold everywhere from Farmacias to Supermarkets such as Mercadona. My question is if as you state they are only suitable in a "medical environment", are we in fact using the wrong mask to go about our daily business?
> 
> 
> 
> I think what MM means is that when they are used in a medical environment they are single use.
> If we (members of the public) treated them as single use in "normal" life we'd be spending hundreds of Euros a month on them and creating a huge amount of potentially infected residue.
Click to expand...


----------



## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> Overandout, you can get these
> https://salvaorejasparamascarillas.com/
> OH got them in a chemist's, 1€ for 1 or 2, can't remember. I don't think he asked for_ salva orejas_, maybe _gancho_, _extensión de plástico_...


Thanks, I was aware of these, at the moment the only ones I've seen have had terrible slogans integrated into them, either nationalistic slogans or childrens cartoon characters usually, so I have refused to use them!

Salvaorjeas is the accepted term for them by the way!

In any case, I find the textile ones very heavy and hot compared to the surgical ones which are very light and more comfortable in the current temperatures. Maybe in winter I will change my mind!


----------



## Love Karma

Overandout said:


> Love Karma said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think what MM means is that when they are used in a medical environment they are single use.
> If we (members of the public) treated them as single use in "normal" life we'd be spending hundreds of Euros a month on them and creating a huge amount of potentially infected residue.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, that where I've been going wrong as I've been treating them as per the instructions on package as "Single Use" and everyone I know does the same. Bit odd that as they are sold to general public with those instructions?
Click to expand...


----------



## Overandout

Love Karma said:


> Overandout said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, that where I've been going wrong as I've been treating them as per the instructions on package as "Single Use" and everyone I know does the same. Bit odd that as they are sold to general public with those instructions?
> 
> 
> 
> Rather than going wrong, it where you are being more correct than the majority!
> 
> Opinions seem to be divided as to whether we should try to disinfect and reuse them after only having been used for a short time, but the safest option is to throw them away as if your were a surgeon every time. Just don't expect everyone to do the same.
> 
> I would prefer to be stood next to someone wearing a mask correctly but for the 4th time than to someone with a new one round their chin or elbow.
Click to expand...


----------



## Williams2

Love Karma said:


> Now that here in Andalucía (and other regions) the requirements to wear Masks have been widened what do people here favour mask wise, any you find more comfortable than others for prolonged wear in the heat. Any recommendations? Any tips? Personally been using the blue surgical type but in this heat am using up to 3 a day


These face masks are very comfortable and would look a treat together with a Stetson.
Suffice to say these face masks are extremely washable and therefore can be worn
a multitude of times.


----------



## Megsmum

Love Karma said:


> Megsmum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unless your masks are full PPE they are simply lowering the chances of spreading any virus. Viruses can still pass through, and if they are like the ones in the picture then washing makes them ineffective, *they are single use only in a medical environment.
> [*/QUOTE]
> 
> The one in the pic you post are the ones I have and from what I see are what a huge proportion of people are wearing here and are being sold everywhere from Farmacias to Supermarkets such as Mercadona. My question is if as you state they are only suitable in a "medical environment", are we in fact using the wrong mask to go about our daily business?
> 
> 
> 
> They are effective as single use only within a medical environment, in fact, if memory serves me right, they lose protection after 90 minutes. In long cases we would often take a break and scrub again with new gloves and masks. Once removed, within a medical environment they are thrown away due to their efficacy after use.
> 
> Masks are, in my opinion, a two way issue. Yes they’ll protect others from you, they do not protect you from someone not wearing one, the virus is so minuscule that it’s capable of passing through and quite capable of entering in the gaps that I suspect 99.9% of the population have as the masks are rarely used correctly.
> 
> A cotton mask as per PW post, which are what I have
> 
> https://mrbroc.com/producto/mascarillas-para-ninos-y-adultos-con-tela-certificada-une-0065/
> 
> Are as effective, can be cleaned without issue, and has the same efficacy. I have cotton ones, I do not want to use the blue ones as, in my opinion, they should be for front line staff who would wear them under other PPE masks if they can’t get the full PPE suitable for preventing infection
> 
> Want to prevent the virus. Then try using this, as I did on many a theatre list.
> 
> 
> As for 400 cases, why did anyone think it had gone. Covid is here until a vaccine, it’s not just going to disappear a la Trump, 400 new cases and rising is not the issue, the issue is when death rates Start rising and Hospitals can’t cope.
> 
> As the well worn mantra states..by washing your hands, stay 2 metres apart is the most effective way stopping this virus from growing again BUT the economy is now the most important thing... so yes, covid is here to stay, infections will go up and down, people will still die and the economy will suck..
Click to expand...


----------



## Isobella

Megsmum said:


> Love Karma said:
> 
> 
> 
> They are effective as single use only within a medical environment, in fact, if memory serves me right, they lose protection after 90 minutes. In long cases we would often take a break and scrub again with new gloves and masks. Once removed, within a medical environment they are thrown away due to their efficacy after use.
> 
> Masks are, in my opinion, a two way issue. Yes they’ll protect others from you, they do not protect you from someone not wearing one, the virus is so minuscule that it’s capable of passing through and quite capable of entering in the gaps that I suspect 99.9% of the population have as the masks are rarely used correctly.
> 
> A cotton mask as per PW post, which are what I have
> 
> https://mrbroc.com/producto/mascarillas-para-ninos-y-adultos-con-tela-certificada-une-0065/
> 
> Are as effective, can be cleaned without issue, and has the same efficacy. I have cotton ones, I do not want to use the blue ones as, in my opinion, they should be for front line staff who would wear them under other PPE masks if they can’t get the full PPE suitable for preventing infection
> 
> Want to prevent the virus. Then try using this, as I did on many a theatre list.
> 
> 
> As for 400 cases, why did anyone think it had gone. Covid is here until a vaccine, it’s not just going to disappear a la Trump, 400 new cases and rising is not the issue, the issue is when death rates Start rising and Hospitals can’t cope.
> 
> As the well worn mantra states..by washing your hands, stay 2 metres apart is the most effective way stopping this virus from growing again BUT the economy is now the most important thing... so yes, covid is here to stay, infections will go up and down, people will still die and the economy will suck..
> 
> 
> 
> When OH was in hospital a few days before lockdown he was in a ward of 4. Bysy with staff as high dependency. He says there were dispensers of gloves and masks by each cubicle and they were changing them all the time.
> 
> At the start in shops and pharmacy staff were wearing visors and some masks as well. Yesterday in Waitrose and Boots only saw one worker with a mask, all visors gone. On the floor outside a waste bin was a blue mask with the ear string broken. Another of the floor in the car park.
> 
> I wonder if the new outbreaks are just the result of increased testing.
Click to expand...


----------



## Megsmum

Isobella said:


> Megsmum said:
> 
> 
> 
> When OH was in hospital a few days before lockdown he was in a ward of 4. Bysy with staff as high dependency. He says there were dispensers of gloves and masks by each cubicle and they were changing them all the time.
> 
> At the start in shops and pharmacy staff were wearing visors and some masks as well. Yesterday in Waitrose and Boots only saw one worker with a mask, all visors gone. On the floor outside a waste bin was a blue mask with the ear string broken. Another of the floor in the car park.
> 
> I wonder if the new outbreaks are just the result of increased testing.
> 
> 
> 
> Logically if you are testing more you will get higher infection results, but it all comes down to numbers per million etc. But I’m no epidemiologist :rolleyes. I don’t really take any notice now of daily updates or worry about it, this is now the new norm, I’m resigned to that fact.
Click to expand...


----------



## Lynn R

Have seen a huge range of fabric masks on sale in Málaga Centro today, everything from floral to a black one with "F···ing Virus" printed on it (but expletive not deleted) I was tempted by the latter but decided discretion was the better part of valour.


----------



## kaipa

580 contagions in last 24 hours. We are now at the level of 10th of May.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> 580 contagions in last 24 hours. We are now at the level of 10th of May.


Of contagion, but not deaths. Is that right?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> Have seen a huge range of fabric masks on sale in Málaga Centro today, everything from floral to a black one with "F···ing Virus" printed on it (but expletive not deleted) I was tempted by the latter but decided discretion was the better part of valour.


Loads for sale, but most without guarantees of following any kind of guidelines. Are they worth buying?


----------



## Love Karma

kaipa said:


> 580 contagions in last 24 hours. We are now at the level of 10th of May.


Not according to historical data which records them at triple what you quote on May 10th?


----------



## stevesainty

Pesky Wesky said:


> Loads for sale, but most without guarantees of following any kind of guidelines. Are they worth buying?


A bit of humour, with a message. 

I was just sent a cartoon by my sister on FB. I cannot share it but this is the gist.

If we are running around naked and someone pees on you, you get wet immediately.
If you are wearing trousers, then some of the pee gets through, but you are better protected. 
If we are all wearing trousers then the pee remains mostly in the peer's trousers.

This made me giggle and it has some truth to it.


----------



## Love Karma

stevesainty said:


> A bit of humour, with a message.
> 
> I was just sent a cartoon by my sister on FB. I cannot share it but this is the gist.
> 
> If we are running around naked and someone pees on you, you get wet immediately.
> If you are wearing trousers, then some of the pee gets through, but you are better protected.
> If we are all wearing trousers then the pee remains mostly in the peer's trousers.
> 
> This made me giggle and it has some truth to it.


Simliar kind of thing.....made me titter


----------



## Pesky Wesky

stevesainty said:


> A bit of humour, with a message.
> 
> I was just sent a cartoon by my sister on FB. I cannot share it but this is the gist.
> 
> If we are running around naked and someone pees on you, you get wet immediately.
> If you are wearing trousers, then some of the pee gets through, but you are better protected.
> If we are all wearing trousers then the pee remains mostly in the peer's trousers.
> 
> This made me giggle and it has some truth to it.


 I agree - to a certain extent. In some cases something is better than nothing, but...

Firstly I think a lot of people still think that we wear masks to protect ourselves, but in fact we are protecting everyone else, not ourselves and secondly some masks are badly made, bulging at the sides, slipping down when we speak and made of material so thin that it wouldn't catch a 5p coin let alone a microscopic bug, yet they are worn and people think they are protecting others when they are not.
Get a mask that is well made and then wear it


----------



## Love Karma

Pesky Wesky said:


> I agree - to a certain extent. In some cases something is better than nothing, but...
> 
> Firstly I think a lot of people still think that we wear masks to protect ourselves, but in fact we are protecting everyone else, *not ourselves* and secondly some masks are badly made, bulging at the sides, slipping down when we speak and made of material so thin that it wouldn't catch a 5p coin let alone a microscopic bug, yet they are worn and people think they are protecting others when they are not.
> Get a mask that is well made and then wear it


I would dispute that as the graphic shows wearing a mask DOES offer you a level of protection as well as protecting others if worn correctly and are made of a standard recommended.


----------



## 95995

Pesky Wesky said:


> I bought these online, (see photo below) pack of 10, for 3 reasons
> https://mrbroc.com/producto/mascarillas-para-ninos-y-adultos-con-tela-certificada-une-0065/
> 
> 
> They are made to EU standards * especificaciones UNE0065:2020 (*which I looked up and do exist!*)
> *
> A donation is made and masks are donated to people in need
> They are made in Spain
> 
> 
> Not everyone's taste, but a possibility
> 
> 
> OH bought these from Ontermon Oxfam.
> https://tienda.oxfamintermon.org/es/mascarillas-higienicas-reutilizables.html
> 
> 
> We have a small bin, like a bathroom bin on the stairs and put the dirty ones in there as we come off the street. I wash them by
> 
> 
> 
> putting on rubber gloves
> put them into a bowl with a little cold water and detergent
> boiling the kettle and pouring the water over. That's why they are in a little cold water before, so the water they are washed in isn't actually boiling.
> Leave until cool enough to handle
> Rubber gloves on and rub and scrub.
> Rinse taking care not to pour the dirty water over anything in the sink.
> Hang out to dry
> OH also bought some in a supermarket that look like crap, just very thin cotton material that you might make a summer shirt out of. I think you'd do more harm than good by wearing them.
> 
> 
> The blue disposable ones are not recyclable so don't put them in the bins for plastic.


It is perhaps worth noting that masks are more effective if they fit snugly, including at the sides. The only fabric marks that in my experience do that for most wearers are those that don't go over your ears, but attach at the back of the head and at the nape - these however are not as easy to slip on and off (unless you eg. slip the below your chin or below your nose, which is not advised either). I guess in the end you do the best you can, but at least one of your sites has masks for children. 

Re washing, all of mine (which meet the approved standards) tell you to wash at 60 deg, which I do in the machine when I have enough, often with other items that can withstand that temp, which is also, according to advice in France, OK.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Love Karma said:


> I would dispute that as the graphic shows wearing a mask DOES offer you a level of protection as well as protecting others if worn correctly and are made of a standard recommended.
> 
> View attachment 92734


That could well be, I don't know and TBH I don't think the medical world agrees on this. All I have heard in Spain from medical sources indicate that wearing a mask does little to protect you and everything to protect others, but opinions change all the time. The much praised Fernando Simon director of _Centro de Coordinación de Alertas y Emergencias Sanitarias del Ministerio de Sanidad, _famously said at the begining of this crisis that *



"No tiene sentido que los ciudadanos sanos usen mascarilla"

Click to expand...

 *but the government made him change his mind about that, or maybe he changed his mind on his own*
*


----------



## 95995

Ha ha, I ended up with lots and lots of approved masks around a week after the lockdown here. They were impossible to get where I live (as was hand sanitiser), the local council distributed right at the end of the lockdown but also (despite what they later said) didn't have enough to go around to even provide every resident with just one mask. During our lockdown I was searching all the time on the internet and ordering whenever they were shown as in stock, but deliveries here were also a major issue, not to mention that some masks turned out not to be in stock. In the end they all turned up about a week after the end of the lockdown; within about 48 hours of each other, in the post and via various delivery companies,

Still, I have plenty now, which is a really good thing as they are about to tighten mask wearing rules in France (not to the same extent as Spain) because, of course, virus cases are again on the increase.

Someone earlier mentioned Macron patting Sanchez on the back. He is actually a very poor example of taking proper, even required precautions, as are our government's ministers - you would be absolutely horrified if you saw even just a few examples (shaking hands, hugging each other, whispering in each other's ears, all whilst not even wearing masks, let alone social distancing) - how on earth can they expect the general public to take what they term 'personal responsibility', which means just doing it without any defined, let alone enforced, rules?


----------



## Isobella

Who would have thought a few months ago one of the main topics on here would be masks and which to wear.


----------



## kaipa

Love Karma said:


> kaipa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 580 contagions in last 24 hours. We are now at the level of 10th of May.
> 
> 
> 
> Not according to historical data which records them at triple what you quote on May 10th?
> 
> View attachment 92730
Click to expand...

Oh well. El pais can't compete with you

https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-07...a-dispara-los-nuevos-casos-580-en-un-dia.html


----------



## Love Karma

kaipa said:


> Oh well. El pais can't compete with you
> 
> https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-07...a-dispara-los-nuevos-casos-580-en-un-dia.html


Not with me, but official figures as shown on the graphic, but anyway your link and article does not anywhere within it substantiate what you quoted for May 10th.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

EverHopeful said:


> Ha ha, I ended up with lots and lots of approved masks around a week after the lockdown here.
> 
> ....
> 
> Still, I have plenty now, which is a really good thing as they are about to tighten mask wearing rules in France (not to the same extent as Spain) because, of course, virus cases are again on the increase.


Yep, hang on to them because sooner or later you're going to need them. That's one of the reasons we bought a stack of washable ones as it's evident that this is going to go on for some time. If we ever go back to work all 3 of us in this family use public transport, so we could end up spending a fortune on masks.


----------



## 95995

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yep, hang on to them because sooner or later you're going to need them. That's one of the reasons we bought a stack of washable ones as it's evident that this is going to go on for some time. If we ever go back to work all 3 of us in this family use public transport, so we could end up spending a fortune on masks.


Ôh yes, I am very well armed now 

Unlike you, I am very fortunate to be able to strictly limit my outings (well, except for walking the dog, of course), and I have been doing it. I go to the supermarket about once every 10 days, to the bakery maybe every 4-5 days (I freeze my bread), I already don't allow visitors, actually haven't touched abyone for months (which is very sad), walk my dog 3 times a day, none of which requires public transport (car to the supermarket of course). Still, that is all because I have major health problems. For others, and definitely including people like yourself, it is much more complicated.

Take care.


----------



## kaipa

Love Karma said:


> kaipa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh well. El pais can't compete with you
> 
> https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-07...a-dispara-los-nuevos-casos-580-en-un-dia.html
> 
> 
> 
> Not with me, but official figures as shown on the graphic, but anyway your link and article does not anywhere within it substantiate what you quoted for May 10th.
Click to expand...




> Los datos de este jueves se han disparado impulsados por estos dos grandes focos: 580 positivos en un día, una cifra que no se veía desde hace más de dos meses


The figures for this Thursday have shot up due to these two specific places: 580 positives in one day, a figure which hasn't been seen for more than two months


----------



## Love Karma

kaipa said:


> The figures for this Thursday have shot up due to thses two specific places: 580 positives in one day, a figure which hasn't been seen for more than two months


You can try all you like, but this still bears no relevance to your initial post quoting MAY 10th.....a date which historical data figures show your quote is totally inaccurate as the graphic I posted reflects.


----------



## kaipa

Love Karma said:


> kaipa said:
> 
> 
> 
> The figures for this Thursday have shot up due to thses two specific places: 580 positives in one day, a figure which hasn't been seen for more than two months
> 
> 
> 
> You can try all you like, but this still bears no relevance to your initial post quoting MAY 10th.....a date which historical data figures show your quote is totally inaccurate as the graphic I posted reflects.
Click to expand...

Forget you win Love Karma.


----------



## Williams2

Isobella said:


> Who would have thought a few months ago one of the main topics on here would be masks and which to wear.


Now they are styling masks for every occasion in your daily life, they even had ones for Royal Ascot if it went ahead this year !!


----------



## kaipa

kaipa said:


> Love Karma said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kaipa said:
> 
> 
> 
> The figures for this Thursday have shot up due to thses two specific places: 580 positives in one day, a figure which hasn't been seen for more than two months
> 
> 
> 
> You can try all you like, but this still bears no relevance to your initial post quoting MAY 10th.....a date which historical data figures show your quote is totally inaccurate as the graphic I posted reflects.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Forget you win Love Karma.
Click to expand...

https://www.hoy.es/nacional/sanidad-notifica-nuevos-contagios-6172201422001-20200716182505-vi.html


----------



## Alcalaina

Whatever the actual contagion figures are (there was bound to be an increase after lockdown was eased) it has to be the case that more testing is being carried out via contact tracing, therefore more cases are being detected early on, and the appropriate confinement measures can be taken at a local level.

There were apparently nine deaths in the last seven days (compared to nearly a thousand a day at the peak). I can't find data on new hospitalisations but that's the figure to watch. If that starts to rise sharply, we're in trouble.


----------



## RobGre

Thanks for the info!


----------



## Isobella

kaipa said:


> Forget you win Love Karma.


Reuters news us reporting the same date too.


----------



## 95995

Alcalaina said:


> Whatever the actual contagion figures are (there was bound to be an increase after lockdown was eased) it has to be the case that more testing is being carried out via contact tracing, therefore more cases are being detected early on, and the appropriate confinement measures can be taken at a local level.
> 
> *There were apparently nine deaths in the last seven days (compared to nearly a thousand a day at the peak). I can't find data on new hospitalisations but that's the figure to watch. If that starts to rise sharply, we're in trouble*.


Bear in mind that deaths generally start occurring some time after new cases


People become infected
Some of them are identified because they start getting sufficiently ill
Some of those then become ill enough to require treatment in hospital
Some of those then become seriously ill, some die
Some of those then need to be put on ventilators, some die

Cases are increasing and you are already seeing deaths, there will clearly be more deaths.

Not to mention that recovery takes a long time and for those who have been gravely ill an extremely long time much of which is spent in hospital.


----------



## Megsmum

Again, why are some people So surprised/obsessed with daily figures of infections? 

More testing equals higher incidents of infections
Probably up the rate due to asymptotic carriers 

There will be higher infections as we progress through lockdown, common sense tells us that, the more people mingle the higher the infection rate.

Death rates and the inability of the hospitals to cope, a lack of track and trace systems will be a bigger issue.

Even if the rate of infection is as high as day one the death rate is not...which is not to say it won’t grow.... if it does that when to worry as clearly lockdown will come back In force


----------



## Williams2

Alcalaina said:


> *Whatever the actual contagion figures are (there was bound to be an increase after lockdown was eased) it has to be the case that more testing is being carried out* via contact tracing, therefore more cases are being detected early on, and the appropriate confinement measures can be taken at a local level.
> 
> There were apparently nine deaths in the last seven days (compared to nearly a thousand a day at the peak). I can't find data on new hospitalisations but that's the figure to watch. If that starts to rise sharply, we're in trouble.


It would be interesting to know how widespread the testing for Covid19 really is and that it's not just confined to
those that are suffering syptoms attributable to the virus, those counted as key workers in the health services,
care home workers etc, etc.

Therefore how many Expats and their families have approached their GP, etc to be voluntarily tested or offered
testing of their own free will for it ?


----------



## 95995

Williams2 said:


> It would be interesting to know how widespread the testing for Covid19 really is and that it's not just confined to
> those that are suffering syptoms attributable to the virus, those counted as key workers in the health services,
> care home workers etc, etc.
> 
> Therefore how many Expats and their families have approached their GP, etc to be voluntarily tested or offered
> testing of their own free will for it ?


Yesterday the French Government announced that anyone could go to a lab to get tested without a prescription, the labs said they didn't have the resources. Result? People flocked to the labs in huge numbers, there were massive queues albeit some people just gave up.


----------



## kaipa

So it looks like Barcelona is making an attempt to keep people at home by now making a voluntary responsibility not to leave home unless for essentials. I dont think that is going to work at all given how people are preparing for holidays and the tourists arriving. Surely a city wide lock down by next week?


----------



## Alcalaina

Williams2 said:


> It would be interesting to know how widespread the testing for Covid19 really is and that it's not just confined to
> those that are suffering syptoms attributable to the virus, those counted as key workers in the health services,
> care home workers etc, etc.
> 
> Therefore how many Expats and their families have approached their GP, etc to be voluntarily tested or offered
> testing of their own free will for it ?


If you show symptoms, you get a test.
If you are traced as a contact of an infected person, you get a test.
If you work with infected people, you get a test.

You can't have the whole population rolling up when they feel like it asking to be tested. Tests are expensive and time-consuming, and need to be restricted to those who need them. Though I believe it's possible to pay for one in the private sector.


----------



## Williams2

Alcalaina said:


> If you show symptoms, you get a test.
> If you are traced as a contact of an infected person, you get a test.
> If you work with infected people, you get a test.
> 
> You can't have the whole population rolling up when they feel like it asking to be tested. Tests are expensive and time-consuming, and need to be restricted to those who need them. Though I believe it's possible to pay for one in the private sector.


QED - therefore we will never know the full extent of the virus and how many people who have
had it or thought they might have had it but recovered, dismissing it as no more than a bad cold.


----------



## Alcalaina

Williams2 said:


> QED - therefore we will never know the full extent of the virus and how many people who have had it or thought they might have had it but recovered, dismissing it as no more than a bad cold.


Exactly, which is why quoting and comparing statistics on contagion rates is a pretty pointless exercise.


----------



## mrypg9

Isobella said:


> Who would have thought a few months ago one of the main topics on here would be masks and which to wear.


Makes a change from Brexit and Greta Thunberg I suppose. 

None of the three topics is of interest to me tbh.

Brexit and Greta Thunberg bore me and all I can do about The Virus is follow advice and take sensible precautions.

At the moment a more burning issue for me is the problem of incontinence in older dogs.


----------



## Megsmum

Alcalaina said:


> Exactly, which is why quoting and comparing statistics on contagion rates is a pretty pointless exercise.


Sometimes I think people are so frightened of this illness they focus everything on the numbers etc, rather than simply ensuring they as individuals doing the right thing protecting themselves and others. The only people that know the truth are scientists and epidemiologists of which I suspect no one on here is!


----------



## mrypg9

Megsmum said:


> Sometimes I think people are so frightened of this illness they focus everything on the numbers etc, rather than simply ensuring they as individuals doing the right thing protecting themselves and others. The only people that know the truth are scientists and epidemiologists of which I suspect no one on here is!


Very true. I just do as I am told by the relevant authorities and get on with my life. I refuse to become obsessed with ****ing Covid 19.


----------



## jimenato

mrypg9 said:


> Makes a change from Brexit and Greta Thunberg I suppose.
> 
> None of the three topics is of interest to me tbh.
> 
> Brexit and Greta Thunberg bore me and all I can do about The Virus is follow advice and take sensible precautions.
> 
> At the moment a more burning issue for me is the problem of incontinence in older dogs.


Urinary or ... errr... other?


----------



## Isobella

mrypg9 said:


> Makes a change from Brexit and Greta Thunberg I suppose.
> 
> None of the three topics is of interest to me tbh.
> 
> Brexit and Greta Thunberg bore me and all I can do about The Virus is follow advice and take sensible precautions.
> 
> At the moment a more burning issue for me is the problem of incontinence in older dogs.


My vet gave ours pills, one a day and they worked. Can't remember what they were called. She was a female dog.


----------



## Alcalaina

Oh please. Start a different thread for incontinent dog owners, for heavens sake! (Or perhaps I should say "a thread for owners of incontinent dogs")


----------



## kaipa

Compusory masks in Valencia province now


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Only Madrid and The Canaries have NOT made the use of masks obligatory at ALL times.
Strange that Madrid that was so bad before is coming off better now. Is it because of people following the recommendations, good policing, good medical facilities... Is it because the virus moves in mysterious ways that we don't know about or is it that we're not being told the real figures?


----------



## kaipa

I think that the problem was as soon as they finished the state of Alarm people began thinking the virus was effectively beaten so things became more relaxed. Personally I think they should have kept all gatherings limited as we now know that all the outbreaks are caused by groups coming together for long periods often for celebrations. The age of infection is lower than before and this seems to reflect young persons attitude of assumed low risk. Putting people in masks all day will probably have little effect and if anything divert attention away from activities that are know to be more risky. Plus its playing into the hands of judgemental factions who wish to signal their virtuing which will not help as its unrealistic to assume everyone will accept the same degrees of responsibility. I fear with 2 weeks spain will be forced to issue another state of Alarm


----------



## TanGem

kaipa said:


> I think that the problem was as soon as they finished the state of Alarm people began thinking the virus was effectively beaten so things became more relaxed. Personally I think they should have kept all gatherings limited as we now know that all the outbreaks are caused by groups coming together for long periods often for celebrations. The age of infection is lower than before and this seems to reflect young persons attitude of assumed low risk. Putting people in masks all day will probably have little effect and if anything divert attention away from activities that are know to be more risky. Plus its playing into the hands of judgemental factions who wish to signal their virtuing which will not help as its unrealistic to assume everyone will accept the same degrees of responsibility. *I fear with 2 weeks spain will be forced to issue another state of Alarm*


Yes indeed was in Granada during the week and also Malaga centre and evenings in the popular eating areas there were just lots of younger people in groups all hugging, kissing as per the Spanish norm by way of greeting Friends. I like you think Spain and its borders will be locked down again by end of month and people scrambling for flights back home to Norway, Germany, U.K etc and any incoming Spaniards forced to a strict quarantine up on arrival. Someone mentioned here I think or I read it somewhere that the Army are ready and prepared to set up road blocks etc. Hopefully none of this will happen but I don't feel confident that it won't.:sad:


----------



## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> Only Madrid and The Canaries have NOT made the use of masks obligatory at ALL times.
> Strange that Madrid that was so bad before is coming off better now. Is it because of people following the recommendations, good policing, good medical facilities... Is it because the virus moves in mysterious ways that we don't know about or is it that we're not being told the real figures?


Or is it because Ayuso and her crew are on the libertarian far right and they believe making masks compulsory is an affront to personal liberty?


----------



## kaipa

TanGem said:


> kaipa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think that the problem was as soon as they finished the state of Alarm people began thinking the virus was effectively beaten so things became more relaxed. Personally I think they should have kept all gatherings limited as we now know that all the outbreaks are caused by groups coming together for long periods often for celebrations. The age of infection is lower than before and this seems to reflect young persons attitude of assumed low risk. Putting people in masks all day will probably have little effect and if anything divert attention away from activities that are know to be more risky. Plus its playing into the hands of judgemental factions who wish to signal their virtuing which will not help as its unrealistic to assume everyone will accept the same degrees of responsibility. *I fear with 2 weeks spain will be forced to issue another state of Alarm*
> 
> 
> 
> Yes indeed was in Granada during the week and also Malaga centre and evenings in the popular eating areas there were just lots of younger people in groups all hugging, kissing as per the Spanish norm by way of greeting Friends. I like you think Spain and its borders will be locked down again by end of month and people scrambling for flights back home to Norway, Germany, U.K etc and any incoming Spaniards forced to a strict quarantine up on arrival. Someone mentioned here I think or I read it somewhere that the Army are ready and prepared to set up road blocks etc. Hopefully none of this will happen but I don't feel confident that it won't.
Click to expand...


My fear is UK has to start quarantine on people travelling from Spain which now seems logical. Looks like Nicola Sturgeon was right when they said they would keep the Spanish quarantine. After all we now have outbreaks in Benidorm and Santa Pola involving tourists. So if these people are not traced soon and return on a full flight to uk can you imagine the recriminations.


----------



## Williams2

kaipa said:


> My fear is UK has to start quarantine on people travelling from Spain which now seems logical. Looks like Nicola Sturgeon was right when they said they would keep the Spanish quarantine. After all we now have outbreaks in Benidorm and Santa Pola involving tourists. So if these people are not traced soon and return on a full flight to uk can you imagine the recriminations.


There's also talk of the Republic of Ireland establishing an Air bridge with Scotland but excluding
the rest of the UK with the exception of Northern Ireland, as far as quarantine is concerned. 
No doubt Nicola would return the favour with any quarantining of the English from south of 
the border meeting the approval of Southern Ireland but letting their visitors in.

Sky News - Ireland quarantine remains in force for British holidaymakers


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Oh please. Start a different thread for incontinent dog owners, for heavens sake! (Or perhaps I should say "a thread for owners of incontinent dogs")


Yes. You should


----------



## baldilocks

We seem to be having some incontinence problems - the dogs that is. Kidney failure has been mentioned by the vet so we have put them on a low-salt diet which means stopping them having crisps and/or salted peanuts as nibbles while watching television with SWMBO and/or the mil.


----------



## stevesainty

kaipa said:


> My fear is UK has to start quarantine on people travelling from Spain which now seems logical. Looks like Nicola Sturgeon was right when they said they would keep the Spanish quarantine. After all we now have outbreaks in Benidorm and Santa Pola involving tourists. So if these people are not traced soon and return on a full flight to uk can you imagine the recriminations.


I thought the Santa Pola outbreak was linked to youngsters in clubs or at least groups and could also link to the more serious outbreak in Elche only a few km away but as such not necessarily tourists from outside Spain. I would guess the Benidorm outbreak is linked to Brits.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> Or is it because Ayuso and her crew are on the libertarian far right and they believe making masks compulsory is an affront to personal liberty?


 Hahahaha:bounce:Libertarian??!!
Liberty for her and her followers to tell people what to do maybe 


Well, that's the thing, I'm not sure if it's due to political silence or not because I haven't heard anything from medical workers bringing this to the attention of the public, so maybe it's true, we don't have so many cases here?
Have asked some friends who live in Madrid and have friends in the Seguridad Social to see if they know anything


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> I think that the problem was as soon as they finished the state of Alarm people began thinking the virus was effectively beaten so things became more relaxed. Personally I think they should have kept all gatherings limited as we now know that all the outbreaks are caused by groups coming together for long periods often for celebrations. The age of infection is lower than before and this seems to reflect young persons attitude of assumed low risk. Putting people in masks all day will probably have little effect and if anything divert attention away from activities that are know to be more risky. Plus its playing into the hands of judgemental factions who wish to signal their virtuing which will not help as its unrealistic to assume everyone will accept the same degrees of responsibility. I fear with 2 weeks spain will be forced to issue another state of Alarm


 Any political party that advocates issuing another State of Alarm in the summer in Spain is likely committing political suicide, but I agree; we are headed in that direction.
I don't think politicians thought the virus was over ever, but it was deemed necessary economically and not only in Spain, all over.


----------



## Megsmum

Pesky Wesky said:


> Any political party that advocates issuing another State of Alarm in the summer in Spain is likely committing political suicide, but I agree; we are headed in that direction.
> I don't think politicians thought the virus was over ever, but it was deemed necessary economically and not only in Spain, all over.


Unless death rates and hospitals admissions rise to levels where they, the hospitals, can’t cope I can’t see a countrywide state of alarm anywhere. This is, I suspect, the new norm. I can see localised lockdowns in Spain and as for the U.K. I can’t see them stopping anyone from going or entering anywhere.


----------



## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hahahaha:bounce:Libertarian??!!
> Liberty for her and her followers to tell people what to do maybe


Libertarianism is a school of philosophy much vaunted by the American far right, in which individuals can do whatever they like, you only have responsibility for yourself, and basically f*ck everyone else. Why should I pay taxes to educate other people's children, that sort of thing. I read an article about Ayuso once and she appeared to be enthusiastic about it. It would make sense in the context of compulsory mask-wearing.


----------



## kaipa

Libertarianism is a school of philosophy much vaunted by the American far right, in which individuals can do whatever they like, you only have responsibility for yourself, and basically f*ck everyone else. Why should I pay taxes to educate other people's children, that sort of thing. I read an article about Ayuso once and she appeared to be enthusiastic about it. It would make sense in the context of compulsory mask-wearing.[/QUOTE]

Ayuso is essentially another populist. She seeks popularity through criticism of the government on all fronts. But like all populists of the right she attracts such a disparate bunch of supporters she is unable to congregate them under specific policies. She is basically a thorn in the side of anyone actually trying to work towards a common good. The idea of libertarianism probably appeals to her as a suitably vague enough nomenclature to attract all kinds of self centred weirdos. Anyway by next week public pressure will force Madrid to follow rest of spain.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> Libertarianism is a school of philosophy much vaunted by the American far right, in which individuals can do whatever they like, you only have responsibility for yourself, and basically f*ck everyone else. Why should I pay taxes to educate other people's children, that sort of thing. I read an article about Ayuso once and she appeared to be enthusiastic about it. It would make sense in the context of compulsory mask-wearing.


And that's what I meant too, liberterian inasmuch as I have the liberty to tell you what to do and make it up as I go along and yes, Ayuso is very happy with that train of thought. It's just the name that is in juxtaposition, like Trump being a Democrat, which he was for a while


----------



## Overandout

If my area of Madrid is anything to go by, the low level of new cases is probably down to the fact that so many people are away, supposedly at the coasts or pueblos.

Just looking at the lack of cars in the car parks demonstrates that a high proportion of people are not too scared or poor to go away for the summer.


----------



## xabiaxica

Overandout said:


> If my area of Madrid is anything to go by, the low level of new cases is probably down to the fact that so many people are away, supposedly at the coasts or pueblos.
> 
> Just looking at the lack of cars in the car parks demonstrates that a high proportion of people are not too scared or poor to go away for the summer.


Yes, it had crossed my mind that that might be the case. 


Obviously with many people on the coast in their summer homes, contagions rates will increase there, simply due to the higher population.

The rate of increase is quite worrying though. In Gandía, just up the coast from me on the way to Valencia, the mayor has ordered all bars & restaurants to close again.


----------



## kaipa

As long as they allow bars and restaurants to operate in thd costa towns the more they create an " everything is normal " vibe and people seem to feel they can let their guard down. Santa Pola has an outbreak and one of the gyms notified my son that someone in his class has tested positive. But still the ayuntamiento is delaying taking action to close these places in the hope that they can get through at least until the end of August


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> If my area of Madrid is anything to go by, the low level of new cases is probably down to the fact that so many people are away, supposedly at the coasts or pueblos.
> 
> Just looking at the lack of cars in the car parks demonstrates that a high proportion of people are not too scared or poor to go away for the summer.


 People travelling from one place to another may well affect contagion rates, but the *majority* of people from Madrid at any one time are in their place of residence. Many people have a second home. A lot of people from La Comunidad de Madrid still have houses in the Sierra, actually in Madrid. Mum and Dad go to work taking it in turns or leave the kids with other family members. Or they go at the weekends. The city maybe less crowded, but a lot of those "missing" are missing for a couple of weeks and many are still within the Comunidad de Madrid.
Also, just as the Madrileños are going to the beach and supposedly "infecting" the indigenous population willy nilly, this surely happens in Barcelona with people going to places like Sitges and Salou, or Bilbao with the Bilbainos going to Castro Urdiales or Santander. Do the people from Zaragoza not flock to Tarragona to escape from the high city temperatures? Granada has highs over 40º and does everyone stay in the city? I think not.
IMO people jump on the bandwagon with the Madrileños sticker on it and find it a useful scapegoat.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> As long as they allow bars and restaurants to operate in thd costa towns the more they create an " everything is normal " vibe and people seem to feel they can let their guard down. Santa Pola has an outbreak and one of the gyms notified my son that someone in his class has tested positive. But still the ayuntamiento is delaying taking action to close these places in the hope that they can get through at least until the end of August


 I think most people were aware right from the start that the lifting of the_ Estado de Alarma_ was not a decision made on medical criteria, but one driven by the economy. The politicians certainly knew, but what government is strong enough to shut down huge sections of the economy? Not even if there was a government with a strong majority ruling would that have been possible.
I don't know how much this is all costing not just in lost revenue but in the costs Covid 19 has incurred, but will there ever be enough money to cover the ERTES, pensions, salaries, equipment, unemployment payments, hospital supplies etc etc?


----------



## kaipa

Pesky Wesky said:


> kaipa said:
> 
> 
> 
> As long as they allow bars and restaurants to operate in thd costa towns the more they create an " everything is normal " vibe and people seem to feel they can let their guard down. Santa Pola has an outbreak and one of the gyms notified my son that someone in his class has tested positive. But still the ayuntamiento is delaying taking action to close these places in the hope that they can get through at least until the end of August
> 
> 
> 
> I think most people were aware right from the start that the lifting of the_ Estado de Alarma_ was not a decision made on medical criteria, but one driven by the economy. The politicians certainly knew, but what government is strong enough to shut down huge sections of the economy? Not even if there was a government with a strong majority ruling would that have been possible.
> I don't know how much this is all costing not just in lost revenue but in the costs Covid 19 has incurred, but will there ever be enough money to cover the ERTES, pensions, salaries, equipment, unemployment payments, hospital supplies etc etc?
Click to expand...

That's true but if politicians are effectively driven now by economic priorities it's time to call a spade a spade and indicate this and then you effectively are saying what Bolsarnaro has said." People will die but the economy mustn't " 
By closing sections of the economy is better than letting things slowly get worse so you then have to shut everything down because it's too late


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> That's true but if politicians are effectively driven now by economic priorities it's time to call a spade a spade and indicate this and then you effectively are saying what Bolsarnaro has said." People will die but the economy mustn't "
> By closing sections of the economy is better than letting things slowly get worse so you then have to shut everything down because it's too late


BUT
Until there is or IF there is a vaccine then, the reality is people will die. What do you close down, bars , restaurants etc and yet many outbreaks have occurred from large family gatherings such as funerals etc.
It is about the economy, and to a point always has been. As individuals we need to protect ourselves and others by doing the right thing, but I can also understand why Manuel his wife and family are all rushing back to work to put food on the table. As has been stated on this very forum ad nauseum, there is no real benefit system here, certainly no furlough scheme a la U.K. and no huge injection of cash as per the U.K. 

Regardless of political allegiances, I would not want to be the person making these decisions, because whatever they do they will get it wrong. People will die and the economy is going to tank.


----------



## kaipa

There is a furlough scheme here like uk. They could support those economic activities whilst the rest of the economy remains open and more safe. Blanket shut downs( which are going to happen ) just makes everyone suffer and costs more.


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> There is a furlough scheme here like uk. They could support those economic activities whilst the rest of the economy remains open and more safe. Blanket shut downs( which are going to happen ) just makes everyone suffer and costs more.


So which bits of the economy? How do you know which bits of the economy have infected personal working for them? How do you support those bits of the economy?

There are going to be surges of infections, I bet the furlough scheme is not as beneficial as it has been in the U.K.? I don’t know but I’m guessing most do not get 80% of there income guaranteed with most getting 100%, the self employed able to get grants as do business not having to be paid back.

I’m not for one moment belittling the situation on the health front But we are living in the new norm. The new norm is I’m afraid, infections, deaths local lockdowns and if and when a second wave occurs and Hospitals can’t cope then possibly another state of alarm but personally I do not see it. This is the new flu, and until a vaccine if there is a vaccine this is it.


----------



## Megsmum

What we really need to happen is an effective contact and trace system. There is no point in shutting down the whole economy again if the clusters are in certain areas.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Megsmum said:


> I bet the furlough scheme is not as beneficial as it has been in the U.K.? I don’t know but I’m guessing most do not get 80% of there income guaranteed with most getting 100%, the self employed able to get grants as do business not having to be paid back.


 I think you are right. I don't know all the ins and outs, but there's nothing about 80% of your salary. On the other hand you are supposed to be able to claim unemployment benefit regardless of how long you have been in employment.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ow-about-the-coronavirus-job-retention-scheme


https://english.elpais.com/economy_...on-of-spains-erte-furlough-scheme-entail.html


----------



## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> People travelling from one place to another may well affect contagion rates, but the *majority* of people from Madrid at any one time are in their place of residence. Many people have a second home. A lot of people from La Comunidad de Madrid still have houses in the Sierra, actually in Madrid. Mum and Dad go to work taking it in turns or leave the kids with other family members. Or they go at the weekends. The city maybe less crowded, but a lot of those "missing" are missing for a couple of weeks and many are still within the Comunidad de Madrid.
> Also, just as the Madrileños are going to the beach and supposedly "infecting" the indigenous population willy nilly, this surely happens in Barcelona with people going to places like Sitges and Salou, or Bilbao with the Bilbainos going to Castro Urdiales or Santander. Do the people from Zaragoza not flock to Tarragona to escape from the high city temperatures? Granada has highs over 40º and does everyone stay in the city? I think not.
> IMO people jump on the bandwagon with the Madrileños sticker on it and find it a useful scapegoat.


I don't really share that thought. Many people I know from my sons' school are away for several months or at least a month over the summer. And the majority of people I know who still have "pueblos" are out of Madrid, usually in Toledo or Extremadura.

Not very scientific I know, but I just looked out of my window onto the car park of our mancomunidad. This is the "free" car park which everyone can use so as you can imagine it is usually packed. Today, at 8:15 it is less than 50% full, so not only are 50% of the vehicles absent, but the ones who usually park on the street are presumably not there either (otherwise they'd have parked in the car park yesterday when it was also about half full).
Even if some of these people are in Madrid Community, I think it is a minority of them.
My view is that a significant proportion of the residents are away from Madrid for longer than 2 weeks, but that doesn't mean I think they are out there infecting others, more to the contrary, it is now being suggested that we are more at risk being away from Madrid than at "home" due to the more relaxed nature of the people in the pueblos who didn't live the experience we did.

I was talking yesterday with a friend, who told me that he was in a bar last week (close to where we were in Extremadura) and a man came and stood right next to him with no mask on at the bar while he was ordering. He turned and said "excuse me but aren't you a bit too close? You should be wearing a mask", and the guy said to him "let me guess you're from Madrid right? Relax you're here now, we don't have the virus here"...

Rather than the madrileños taking the virus out to the rest of Spain as was originally feared, it looks like our next wave will be when these summer stays are over and the people bring the virus back from wherever they have been staying.


----------



## kaipa

I think the mask business is perhaps diverting attention away from more known and likely transmissions modes. It appears to be shared knowledge that a mask does not protect the wearer but more likely reduces the amount of vapour emitted. At the beginning of the pandemic the main area of emphasis was hygiene. What we know at the moment is that many of the current outbreaks appear to concern groups of people being in close contact for protracted periods mostly in enclosed areas. I should imagine that touching surfaces, sharing objects, kissing, holding hands are the more likely actions that are circulating the virus. Even Fernando Simon has said that whilst masks are a positive tool he doesn't believe they are as important hygiene and social distancing and I suppose that his years of experience with viruses is something we should listen to as opposed to the voice of lesser experts


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> I don't really share that thought. Many people I know from my sons' school are away for several months or at least a month over the summer. And the majority of people I know who still have "pueblos" are out of Madrid, usually in Toledo or Extremadura.
> 
> Not very scientific I know, but I just looked out of my window onto the car park of our mancomunidad. This is the "free" car park which everyone can use so as you can imagine it is usually packed. Today, at 8:15 it is less than 50% full, so not only are 50% of the vehicles absent, but the ones who usually park on the street are presumably not there either (otherwise they'd have parked in the car park yesterday when it was also about half full).
> Even if some of these people are in Madrid Community, I think it is a minority of them.
> My view is that a significant proportion of the residents are away from Madrid for longer than 2 weeks, but that doesn't mean I think they are out there infecting others, more to the contrary, it is now being suggested that we are more at risk being away from Madrid than at "home" due to the more relaxed nature of the people in the pueblos who didn't live the experience we did.
> 
> I was talking yesterday with a friend, who told me that he was in a bar last week (close to where we were in Extremadura) and a man came and stood right next to him with no mask on at the bar while he was ordering. He turned and said "excuse me but aren't you a bit too close? You should be wearing a mask", and the guy said to him "let me guess you're from Madrid right? Relax you're here now, we don't have the virus here"...
> 
> Rather than the madrileños taking the virus out to the rest of Spain as was originally feared, it looks like our next wave will be when these summer stays are over and the people bring the virus back from wherever they have been staying.


Well, not sure about that.
I do think that people don't realise that Madrid is a large Comunidad with some very large towns and some small towns and some little villages. If you say I live in Peralejo no one's going to know where that is, but if I say you live in Madrid the majority presume Madrid Capital and treat you like an urban idiot like the guy in the bar in your post, so we say we come from Madrid Comunidad and hope they get the message.
Yes, I think infections will carry on at an increasing rate, some in the cities, some in the country, a lot in family gatherings....


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> I think the mask business is perhaps diverting attention away from more known and likely transmissions modes. It appears to be shared knowledge that a mask does not protect the wearer but more likely reduces the amount of vapour emitted. At the beginning of the pandemic the main area of emphasis was hygiene. What we know at the moment is that many of the current outbreaks appear to concern groups of people being in close contact for protracted periods mostly in enclosed areas. I should imagine that touching surfaces, sharing objects, kissing, holding hands are the more likely actions that are circulating the virus. Even Fernando Simon has said that whilst masks are a positive tool he doesn't believe they are as important hygiene and social distancing and I suppose that his years of experience with viruses is something we should listen to as opposed to the voice of lesser experts


 I think the point with the masks is that it's something easy that we can all do and that makes some difference, yet to be really quantified exactly, but it does make a difference. I think it's something that we can latch onto too as "doing our bit".
In government info and info from town halls the distancing and washing of hands is stated along with the masks


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, not sure about that.
> I do think that people don't realise that Madrid is a large Comunidad with some very large towns and some small towns and some little villages. If you say I live in Peralejo no one's going to know where that is, but if I say you live in Madrid the majority presume Madrid Capital and treat you like an urban idiot like the guy in the bar in your post, so we say we come from Madrid Comunidad and hope they get the message.
> Yes, I think infections will carry on at an increasing rate, some in the cities, some in the country, a lot in family gatherings....


Just to be clear - I wasn't finger pointing at Madrileños. 

However, it's true that coastal towns are filling up with people from elsewhere - not just Madrid. Many here are from Valencia. 

Some are coming from places where mask-wearing isn't the norm, so are resistent to wearing one. 

Sheer numbers will lead to an increase in infections. People, simply because they are on holiday, will let their guard down, along with their masks.

Locals might well do the same. Here we had just 12 cases & two deaths in a population of 27.000. Most continued to wear masks after the lockdown was lifted, although now it seems that fewer are doing so - which is likely why they have again become obligatory at all times. 

It appears that country-wide, the focus of many new infections is private gatherings, & I don't know what can be done about that. 

In your own home you relax. Social distancing & masks don't seem important when you are with people you know well & trust. At least that's what I see from my FB contacts - arms around each other, tipsily laughing for the selfies. 


But you don't know if they are maybe asymptomatic carriers - or indeed if you are - nor who they have been in contact with.


----------



## kaipa

I feel the move from ceding control to autonomous regions is understandable given the friction national government was facing, however I fear it might lead to a worsening of the situation. Again the mask issue: this weekends obligatory mask wearing in many regions is a political move by regional governments to suggest they are doing something. The decisions are not taken due to scientific pressure. Similarly the Catalunya government, who have been so critical of the Spanish government, now find that they are not quite as clever as they liked to sound. Their approach has not reduced the outbreaks if fact it is growing daily. Their test and track systems are woefully lacking and that has alot to do with logistics not national funding that wanted to claim. My fear is that having a multitude of different areas with different political parties will lead to different approaches and no agreed central control which will of course mean a shifting of responsibility to a form of blame and competition.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiaxica said:


> Just to be clear - I wasn't finger pointing at Madrileños.
> 
> However, it's true that coastal towns are filling up with people from elsewhere - not just Madrid. Many here are from Valencia.
> 
> Some are coming from places where mask-wearing isn't the norm, so are resistent to wearing one.
> 
> Sheer numbers will lead to an increase in infections. People, simply because they are on holiday, will let their guard down, along with their masks.
> 
> Locals might well do the same. Here we had just 12 cases & two deaths in a population of 27.000. Most continued to wear masks after the lockdown was lifted, although now it seems that fewer are doing so - which is likely why they have again become obligatory at all times.
> 
> It appears that country-wide, the focus of many new infections is private gatherings, & I don't know what can be done about that.
> 
> In your own home you relax. Social distancing & masks don't seem important when you are with people you know well & trust. At least that's what I see from my FB contacts - arms around each other, tipsily laughing for the selfies.
> 
> 
> But you don't know if they are maybe asymptomatic carriers - or indeed if you are - nor who they have been in contact with.


My remarks weren't directed at anyone on the forum in particular, don't know if I quoted you or not...
I mean the general attitude in tourist areas especially coastal areas of "Oh great, here come the Madrileños ready to infect us". Of course there are areas where the Madrileños go in great numbers, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the Burgaleses, Sevillanos y Extremeños also travel to holiday resorts and can also spark off contagion. It shouldn't be forgotten that the indigenous population who may have a "relaxed" attitude to social distancing etc can also be a source of infection for the visitors!


----------



## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> It shouldn't be forgotten that the indigenous population who may have a "relaxed" attitude to social distancing etc can also be a source of infection for the visitors!


This is exactly the point I was making. It seems to be a genuine concern of the Madrileños that the people outside the capital are not taking things as seriously. Possibly due to a lack of policing maybe?

I was served in small town in Extremadura by a waitress with her mask below her nose, you don't see that in Madrid. It's just one example, but all you need is one person to not take the right precautions.


----------



## 95995

Overandout said:


> This is exactly the point I was making. It seems to be a genuine concern of the Madrileños that the people outside the capital are not taking things as seriously. Possibly due to a lack of policing maybe?
> 
> I was served in small town in Extremadura by a waitress with her mask below her nose, you don't see that in Madrid. It's just one example, but all you need is one person to not take the right precautions.


But no matter how much compliance you introduce, you will not achieve 100% safety, though the more social distancing and mask wearing, the slower (hopefully) the spread.

Or maybe lock everyone up at home 24 hours per day, including *all *workers.  Then everyone can just starve to death (if they don't bump themselves of first).


----------



## kaipa

I feel this is all creating a bad situation where people are trying to out do each other. I'm fed up with Facebook feeds where people criticize other peoples behaviour as a way of bigging up their own. I noticed today a piece criticising the government's science spokesman who was in Portugal with his family and photographed not wearing a mask. Then they were having a go at him for wearing a mask with a design on it at the homenaje in Madrid last week. How on earth does this kind of thing help? Now today there is a debate about the type of mask you have wear with some communes saying it has to be ones sold in chemists etc. Meanwhile we are told schools will go back with no masks.


----------



## Isobella

A list of outbreaks in DM for Spain. Most seem localised.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...00-coronavirus-outbreaks-easing-lockdown.html


----------



## kaipa

Well yes localised but ever region has them meaning the whole map of spain is red whereas 2 weeks ago it was just a couple of regions in the North.


----------



## Overandout

kaipa said:


> I feel this is all creating a bad situation where people are trying to out do each other. I'm fed up with Facebook feeds where people criticize other peoples behaviour as a way of bigging up their own. I noticed today a piece criticising the government's science spokesman who was in Portugal with his family and photographed not wearing a mask. Then they were having a go at him for wearing a mask with a design on it at the homenaje in Madrid last week. How on earth does this kind of thing help? Now today there is a debate about the type of mask you have wear with some communes saying it has to be ones sold in chemists etc. Meanwhile we are told schools will go back with no masks.


You're right, this is the feeling being created, but I do think that it is natural and positive.

For us in Madrid that have tried so hard to be fully compliant during the last three months, or were so heavily controlled if we didn't (as was necessary of course due the density of the population), it strikes us hard to see other areas with their more "laissez faire" attitude (which may have been appropriate when there were no tourists, but not any more).

If pressure from the "righteous" tourists makes the previously lax areas step up their game, then this is surely a good thing (even if seen as one upmanship)?


----------



## Megsmum

Isobella said:


> A list of outbreaks in DM for Spain. Most seem localised.
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...00-coronavirus-outbreaks-easing-lockdown.html





> 2. Seaside resorts have voiced concerns about the arrival of illegal immigrants because some of them are testing positive for coronavirus. In Navalmoral de la Mata in Extremadura, there was a major scare when a migrant with coronavirus escaped custody on June 17 and affected 24 other peop


Hmmm well to start extremadura has no seaside resorts in fact we are totally landlocked, typical daily mail, let’s blame the immigrants but the British are excluded from that description. I’d be more worried about the brits bringing over the virus

Everywhere is going to get outbreaks. We really need to move on and accept the new norm. 

What is the death rate like in Spain v U.K. I do not follow these media hyped stats anymore


----------



## TanGem

Megsmum said:


> Hmmm well to start extremadura has no seaside resorts in fact we are totally landlocked, typical daily mail, let’s blame the immigrants but the British are excluded from that description. I’d be more worried about the brits bringing over the virus
> 
> Everywhere is going to get outbreaks. We really need to move on and accept the new norm.
> 
> *What is the death rate like in Spain v U.K*. I do not follow these media hyped stats anymore


Like you I have given up following the stats as they are probably wildly inaccurate so I can't answer your question but I expect Katy or Rita from the Daily Mail will be making up some more alarmist figures shortly


----------



## Isobella

Thought the list of spikes sort of backed up what some on here are saying that it is not outsiders from Madrid etc that are spreading it. What’s not true?


----------



## Isobella

kaipa said:


> Well yes localised but ever region has them meaning the whole map of spain is red whereas 2 weeks ago it was just a couple of regions in the North.


Glad you said that, i seem to have let the dogs out


----------



## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> Hmmm well to start extremadura has no seaside resorts in fact we are totally landlocked, typical daily mail, let’s blame the immigrants but the British are excluded from that description. I’d be more worried about the brits bringing over the virus
> 
> Everywhere is going to get outbreaks. We really need to move on and accept the new norm.
> 
> *What is the death rate like in Spain v U.K. I do not follow these media hyped stats anymore*


July 17 Spain 4 new deaths, UK 114

Same day, Spain 1,400 new cases ( a huge increase since the borders opened) , UK 687.

It will be interesting to compare the figures in a couple of weeks.


----------



## Alcalaina

Megsmum said:


> Hmmm well to start extremadura has no seaside resorts in fact we are totally landlocked, typical daily mail, let’s blame the immigrants but the British are excluded from that description. I’d be more worried about the brits bringing over the virus


He escaped from a holding centre for undocumented migrants. It was on the news and of course the far right have pounced on it for propaganda purposes. The TV channel Antena3 are even reporting new CV cases divided between "personas" and "inmigrantes".


----------



## Isobella

Megsmum said:


> Hmmm well to start extremadura has no seaside resorts in fact we are totally landlocked, typical daily mail, let’s blame the immigrants but the British are excluded from that description. I’d be more worried about the brits bringing over the virus
> 
> Everywhere is going to get outbreaks. We really need to move on and accept the new norm.
> 
> What is the death rate like in Spain v U.K. I do not follow these media hyped stats anymore


Agree about outbreaks, hate the phrase the new norm, life is anything but.

Didn't realise I was going to set off yet another competition.

Don't worry, won't be long before DM is blaming the Brits who have travelled to Spain


----------



## kaipa

Whatever might be the case between uk and spain I think the UK is entering the " phew it's under control" stage whereas Spain passed through that a month or so ago and is at the " oh no, not again" stage


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> Whatever might be the case between uk and spain I think the UK is entering the " phew it's under control" stage whereas Spain passed through that a month or so ago and is at the " oh no, not again" stage


I disagree, I think most individuals know it’s not over as do the politicians, the simple facts are, whether you like the phrase New norm or not, whether you follow the stats, moan ( not directed at any individuals) about lack of mask wearing, bars opening etc etc. This is how we are going to love for the forceable future. We are all where we are, we can ***** , moan pretend to be experts in the field it is now what is is. Those at risk will need to be protected by their individual actions and those of their families, the rest of us, in the not as much risk category, will have to learn to protect ourselves if we believe others won’t act in our best interest. All the Politicians, across the globe, have the unenviable task of keeping economic activity at a level that can sustain hospitals, schools etc etc. Whilst trying to contain the virus, and I’ve seen nothing from anyone that has a better plan to ensure both those things keep in the right direction.

There is today, a lot of Talk about “the” vaccine” but there has never been a vaccine for any COVID and I certainly will not be rushing out to get a vaccine until it’s been well researched etc. But then I’m , unlike many, in the unenviable position of not needing to go to work, not having to mix with people and able to self isolate for the duration.


----------



## Megsmum

Isobella said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> Agree about outbreaks, hate the phrase the new norm, life is anything but.
> 
> Didn't realise I was going to set off yet another competition.
> 
> Don't worry, won't be long before DM is blaming the Brits who have travelled to Spain


It wasn’t a competition :rolleyes it was the fact that the U.K. clearly appears to have issues and yet countries have opened their doors to tourism from the U.K. where mask wearing is seen as some dictatorial decree. This spread through Europe and the U.K. If memory serves me from tourist travelling to Italy etc. 

Life is not normal but it is what is is and people need to get a handle on it, because whether it’s a phrase liked, or not liked this is it for the foreseeable future, and will become normal


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> He escaped from a holding centre for undocumented migrants. It was on the news and of course the far right have pounced on it for propaganda purposes. The TV channel Antena3 are even reporting new CV cases divided between "personas" and "inmigrantes".


Good grief. That _*is*_ shocking.


----------



## jimenato

Alcalaina said:


> He escaped from a holding centre for undocumented migrants. It was on the news and of course the far right have pounced on it for propaganda purposes. The TV channel Antena3 are even reporting new CV cases divided between "personas" and "inmigrantes".


What about expats - where do they fit in?:bolt::behindsofa:


----------



## Williams2

Megsmum said:


> It wasn’t a competition :rolleyes it was the fact that the U.K. clearly appears to have issues and yet countries have opened their doors to tourism from the U.K. where mask wearing is seen as some dictatorial decree. This spread through Europe and the U.K. If memory serves me from tourist travelling to Italy etc.
> 
> Life is not normal but it is what is is and people need to get a handle on it, because whether it’s a phrase liked, or not liked this is it for the foreseeable future, and will become normal


I often wonder how long the ´new normal´lasted following the outbreaks of The Spanish Flu pandemic 100 years ago.

Perhaps ´The Roaring Twenties' got it's name from the worldwide sigh of relief when the Spanish Flu was over ??

Maybe they started to bring in the ´The Roaring Twenties' by throwing all their face masks onto the bonfire ?


----------



## Megsmum

Williams2 said:


> I often wonder how long the ´new normal´lasted following the outbreaks of The Spanish Flu pandemic 100 years ago.
> 
> Perhaps ´The Roaring Twenties' got it's name from the worldwide sigh of relief when the Spanish Flu was over ??
> 
> Maybe they started to bring in the ´The Roaring Twenties' by throwing all their face masks onto the bonfire ?


The new norm became the norm as hygiene became important for more people, as medical expertise developed etc etc. As people changed habits. Things return to where they were at some stage but this is not 100 years ago, we have global travelling, 7 hours to cross the Atlantic, working classes going on skiing holidays. One cannot compare society now with 100 years ago.


----------



## Williams2

Megsmum said:


> The new norm became the norm as hygiene became important for more people, as medical expertise developed etc etc. As people changed habits. Things return to where they were at some stage but this is not 100 years ago, we have global travelling, 7 hours to cross the Atlantic, working classes going on skiing holidays. One cannot compare society now with 100 years ago.


Nevertheless I'm sure they partied in their own way once it was all over. The photo's from the era showed they
went through a 'new normal' while the virus was around even though it might not exactly be comparable to
our new normal and modern day life & times.


----------



## Megsmum

Williams2 said:


> Nevertheless I'm sure they partied in their own way once it was all over.


Well of course they did, as did people after the wars etc whats your point exactly? 

No one has said life is not ever going to be fulfilled again, it’s just not going to be this side of 2021


----------



## kaipa

However if an effective vaccine is produced by new year then I imagine we return to the old norm?


----------



## Isobella

/SNIP/I was reading about the chabolas occupied by immigrants in Huelva being burned down 3 times in a week. Some have lost all their possessions. Only a very small article in the news, a bit strange.


----------



## Alcalaina

Isobella said:


> I was reading about the chabolas occupied by immigrants in Huelva being burned down 3 times in a week. Some have lost all their possessions. Only a very small article in the news, a bit strange.


It's been on Canal Sur TV, horrible. Not only that but thousands of seasonal workers are stuck in Spain because they can't get back to Morocco (border is only open for freight). They have no income and no rights, only the Cruz Roja will help them. Makes you realise how fortunate you are.

Just seen that the EU have finally overcome the objections of the frugal five, stingy six or whatever and Spain will get €140 billion from the recovery fund. Wonder what strings are attached?


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> I agree, but every time someone starts a new topic it veers back to this one. Almost makes one pine for the good old days of endless Brexit threads.
> 
> BTW Mary, I know us oldies have a tendency to live in the past but you can't turn back the clock. November is not six months away!


Omg it’s four months. Must be psychological, wishing to postpone possiblr Trump re-election syndrome.

Please tell me that can’t happen....


----------



## Isobella

Williams2 said:


> Could be worst - I feel for any old timers in the UK who never progressed from the 5 channels of terrestrial TV
> and have to endure all those repeats of Football rewound, Wimbledon rewound, Royal Ascot rewound,
> the Eurovision Song contest rewound ( it's either a sport or a parody ? :lol: ), the Grand National rewound, etc.
> In fact you name the sporting event that was cancelled this year and you can be sure the BBC, ITV, etc have
> replayed the appropriate sporting events of yesteryear, in it's appropriate time slot as if the event had
> gone ahead this year like the Wimbledon fortnight.
> 
> Although no doubt the millennials would have delighted at seeing John McEnroe and Ilya Nastasi in their
> element in the Wimbledon championship repeats.


A Friends father has dementia and she says he has had a lovely time watching SKY sports. he thinks it is live.


----------



## Brangus

mrypg9 said:


> This topic is becoming an obsession. Is nothing else happening in Spain or in the world at large worth commenting on? How about the Government's recovery programme? Or the Black Lives Matter movement? Or the U.S. election in November....
> 
> We know there is a dangerous virus on the loose. So we take all possible precautions not to be infected. That's all. If I get it I'll die, high risk category, so I do my best to avoid catching it.
> 
> I'm ****ed if I'm going to allow it to take over what's left of my life.


Some of us aren't retired, though, and are concerned about practical topics like school, work, public transport, and holidays during this pandemic. This is a thread about covid, after all. I get enough about the U.S. elections and race issues elsewhere.


----------



## kaipa

Alcalaina said:


> Isobella said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was reading about the chabolas occupied by immigrants in Huelva being burned down 3 times in a week. Some have lost all their possessions. Only a very small article in the news, a bit strange.
> 
> 
> 
> It's been on Canal Sur TV, horrible. Not only that but thousands of seasonal workers are stuck in Spain because they can't get back to Morocco (border is only open for freight). They have no income and no rights, only the Cruz Roja will help them. Makes you realise how fortunate you are.
> 
> Just seen that the EU have finally overcome the objections of the frugal five, stingy six or whatever and Spain will get €140 billion from the recovery fund. Wonder what strings are attached?
Click to expand...


I think they wanted labour and pension reforms but not sure what the final outcome was. I notice Brexiteers seem to making the Dutch into their new best friends.


----------



## tomwins

Love Karma said:


> Simliar kind of thing.....made me titter
> 
> View attachment 92732


That is funny. I have a very hard time wearing a mask as only one nostril works. So if I am going to be wearing it very long, I'll put on a face shield and wear the mask over my mouth. So the next time I do that I'll be chucking about walking around in public "exposed".


----------



## tomwins

Megsmum said:


> Again, why are some people So surprised/obsessed with daily figures of infections?
> 
> More testing equals higher incidents of infections
> ....


May we all be more careful with our words as there seems to be a lot of confusion and many folks are taking advantage of this confusion. 

Increased testing does NOT equal MORE infections or a higher occurrence/incidence of infection but ONLY a higher level of discovering the true level of infection. Therefore it is important to have as broad a level of testing as the infrastructure can afford. 

Back in May, I saw that anything less than a 11-15% positive rate was under-testing. So it is good to have a lot of tests coming back negative as this is an indication of the broad level of testing needed to catch cases early and catching most of the cases.


----------



## Williams2

Alcalaina said:


> It's been on Canal Sur TV, horrible. Not only that but thousands of seasonal workers are stuck in Spain because they can't get back to Morocco (border is only open for freight). They have no income and no rights, only the Cruz Roja will help them. Makes you realise how fortunate you are.
> 
> Just seen that the EU have finally overcome the objections of the frugal five, stingy six or whatever and Spain will get €140 billion from the recovery fund. Wonder what strings are attached?


One suspects that Boris and the Brexits in the Tory government have been watching events in Brussels
with quite satisfaction and a sense of relief that the UK got out of the EU just in time; to avoid dipping
their hands in the British governments pockets for their contribution to the European Recovery Fund.


----------



## kaipa

Williams2 said:


> Alcalaina said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's been on Canal Sur TV, horrible. Not only that but thousands of seasonal workers are stuck in Spain because they can't get back to Morocco (border is only open for freight). They have no income and no rights, only the Cruz Roja will help them. Makes you realise how fortunate you are.
> 
> Just seen that the EU have finally overcome the objections of the frugal five, stingy six or whatever and Spain will get €140 billion from the recovery fund. Wonder what strings are attached?
> 
> 
> 
> One suspects that Boris and the Brexits in the Tory government have been watching events in Brussels
> with quite satisfaction and a sense of relief that the UK got out of the EU just in time; to avoid dipping
> their hands in the British governments pockets for their contribution to the European Recovery Fund.
Click to expand...

But it will probably cost the uk twice as much to try and rebuild it's own economy on it's own with a limited trade market then if it had been part of Europe.


----------



## xabiaxica

On the national news yesterday.

I'm pretty sure I know which club this is.

Wherever it is, it's seriously irresponsible of the management to allow this. 

Yes, the youths are irresponsible - that's natural for youths even during a pandemic. 

However, as I understood it, clubs have been permitted to open, but dance floors have to remain closed or be given over to tables. No dancing allowed. 
Since the dance floor is clearly open it seems more that the management is ENCOURAGING this, not just allowing it. 

And let's not forget that masks have to be worn outside the home unless you're eating or drinking.
I can see clubs being closed again if this is what is happening.

Click for the video

https://www.facebook.com/estertewy/posts/3349212785138759


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiaxica said:


> On the national news yesterday.
> 
> I'm pretty sure I know which club this is.
> 
> Wherever it is, it's seriously irresponsible of the management to allow this.
> 
> Yes, the youths are irresponsible - that's natural for youths even during a pandemic.
> 
> However, as I understood it, clubs have been permitted to open, but dance floors have to remain closed or be given over to tables. No dancing allowed.
> Since the dance floor is clearly open it seems more that the management is ENCOURAGING this, not just allowing it.
> 
> And let's not forget that masks have to be worn outside the home unless you're eating or drinking.
> I can see clubs being closed again if this is what is happening.
> 
> Click for the video
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/estertewy/posts/3349212785138759


Indeed clubs are being closed down in several places, Denia for one, but I have just heard on the news that in some places, (unfortunately I can't remember which) this means they will close at 2am instead of 6? 7? Such a hardship! Such a help to stopping the spread of Covid 19! Way to go!!!


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Indeed clubs are being closed down in several places, Denia for one, but I have just heard on the news that in some places, (unfortunately I can't remember which) this means they will close at 2am instead of 6? 7? Such a hardship! Such a help to stopping the spread of Covid 19! Way to go!!!


The mayor held a meeting with local club owners today - to 'discuss' a way forward.


If I know him - & I do - there will have been warnings to comply or he'll order closure. 

There have already been legal steps taken against those clubs involved last weekend - apparently that video was at one of several with much the same atmosphere.


----------



## kaipa

So today there is 970 contagions in 24 hours with outbreaks in all areas. On the news they are saying Spain is very nearly in a Second wave. Murcia puts Totana in fase 1. It's clear that the different regions, after all their criticism of the government by some are not able to control the situation and I fear we are heading back to national lockdown.


----------



## TanGem

kaipa said:


> So today there is 970 contagions in 24 hours with outbreaks in all areas. On the news they are saying Spain is very nearly in a Second wave. Murcia puts Totana in fase 1. It's clear that the different regions, after all their criticism of the government by some are not able to control the situation and I fear we are heading back to national lockdown.


I think you might very well be correct and it will be as strict if not stricter than March 16th. I think they may give people 48hrs to leave or lock down in place and put a total ban on incoming especially from U.K and France. Possibly as soon as next week?


----------



## kaipa

TanGem said:


> kaipa said:
> 
> 
> 
> So today there is 970 contagions in 24 hours with outbreaks in all areas. On the news they are saying Spain is very nearly in a Second wave. Murcia puts Totana in fase 1. It's clear that the different regions, after all their criticism of the government by some are not able to control the situation and I fear we are heading back to national lockdown.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you might very well be correct and it will be as strict if not stricter than March 16th. I think they may give people 48hrs to leave or lock down in place and put a total ban on incoming especially from U.K and France. Possibly as soon as next week?
Click to expand...

Dont think its quite at that stage yet but the point I was trying to make is that its doubled in a week and journalists are trying to see if the government are going to define things as the start of a second wave


----------



## kaipa

According to the news Spain is now in a Second Wave. Good news is that they are tracing the majority of outbreaks to parties and public places like bars and night clubs ( not the Spanish ones hahaha!). Plus most contagions are young people. So it should be relatively easy to control if the quickly close bars and clubs.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> According to the news Spain is now in a Second Wave. Good news is that they are tracing the majority of outbreaks to parties and public places like bars and night clubs ( not the Spanish ones hahaha!). Plus most contagions are young people. So it should be relatively easy to control if the quickly close bars and clubs.


 Not the Spanish ones?


It was Navarra where they are closing the clubs at 2am (referred to in an earlier post). I see now Murcia and Barcelona are doing the same. What difference that is going to make is difficult to fathom. There will have been plenty of time to catch Covid before 2am and as my daughter pointed out, if they are kicked out then they will probably just go to a park/ wasteland to carry on the party because who is going to stop them?


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> According to the news Spain is now in a Second Wave. Good news is that they are tracing the majority of outbreaks to parties and public places like bars and night clubs ( not the Spanish ones hahaha!). Plus most contagions are young people. So it should be relatively easy to control if the quickly close bars and clubs.


Not the Spanish ones? 


The video I posted of the news report was definitely showed a Spanish one! 

I wonder what you / they mean by 'not Spanish ones'?


----------



## Overandout

xabiaxica said:


> Not the Spanish ones?
> 
> 
> The video I posted of the news report was definitely showed a Spanish one!
> 
> I wonder what you / they mean by 'not Spanish ones'?


I suspect that is a reference to the "Clubs" that you see dotted along the major roads in Spain which are not exactly for dancing...


----------



## Alcalaina

kaipa said:


> According to the news Spain is now in a Second Wave. Good news is that they are tracing the majority of outbreaks to parties and public places like bars and night clubs ( not the Spanish ones hahaha!). Plus most contagions are young people. So it should be relatively easy to control if the quickly close bars and clubs.


If they close these venues, won't people just find somewhere unofficial to party, making contact tracing almost impossible? I'm thinking of all those illigal raves I keep hearing about in the UK.


----------



## Overandout

Alcalaina said:


> If they close these venues, won't people just find somewhere unofficial to party, making contact tracing almost impossible? I'm thinking of all those illigal raves I keep hearing about in the UK.


My thoughts precisely. Those responsible for the continued spread of the virus are very easily identifiable and tend under their own will to congregate in the same place, it is a perfect solution for policing.

I wonder though if there are certain "agreements" in place between night club owners and local authorities that protect them from being closed down.

We have a very noisy club near us (luckily not right next door, but we do sometimes get woken up by the users). The block nearest the club is constantly lodging formal complaints and calling the police, every weekend all year round. It was on the local news last year and it was reported that the local authority had not responded to, or acted on any of the written complaints, and there were hundreds of them going back several years. I wonder if the club is owned by a retired policeman maybe....


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> If they close these venues, won't people just find somewhere unofficial to party, making contact tracing almost impossible? I'm thinking of all those illigal raves I keep hearing about in the UK.


 Well at the moment most are not being closed, "only" being allowed to open to 2am. It seems that before 2am you can't catch the virus...
Murcia
https://www.laopiniondemurcia.es/comunidad/2020/07/22/bar-abierto-despues-madrugada/1130981.html
Navarra
https://www.diariovasco.com/sociedad/navarra-limitara-horario-20200720154346-nt.html


----------



## kaipa

Overandout said:


> I suspect that is a reference to the "Clubs" that you see dotted along the major roads in Spain which are not exactly for dancing...



Ha ha Well done O!


----------



## xgarb

Here's a tip for any British men going on dates with Spanish ladies. If they ask you what you do when the pubs close in the UK:

Do not say.. "Oh sometimes we all go to a nightclub" or "Oh sometimes we all go to a club" 

Say.. "Oh sometimes we all go to discotecas"

I know of two relationships that nearly didn't get off the ground because the Spanish ladies thought they were on a date with a guy who liked brothels!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Barcelona/ Catalonia are taking it further, closing some places and making others close at 12:00 midnight as from Sat 25th for 15 days
https://www.elconfidencial.com/espa...ecas-ocio-nocturno-madrid-mascarilla_2688619/
In English
https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2020/0724/1155424-catalonia-nightclubs-closing/


----------



## xabiaxica

On the news last night a live report showed a group of people in the background on a terrace, greeting each other. No masks, lots of hugging & kissing. Not youths - they were 40ish.

Maybe, just maybe, they all live together. 

But the reaction of one guy - dodging behind a big plant & alerting the rest of the group - when he realised that the camera was on him rather than the reporter, suggests otherwise. 


As long as people ignore the rules - & as long as establishment owners allow them to - more people will get sick, & more will die.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiaxica said:


> On the news last night a live report showed a group of people in the background on a terrace, greeting each other. No masks, lots of hugging & kissing. Not youths - they were 40ish.
> 
> Maybe, just maybe, they all live together.
> 
> But the reaction of one guy - dodging behind a big plant & alerting the rest of the group - when he realised that the camera was on him rather than the reporter, suggests otherwise.
> 
> 
> As long as people ignore the rules - & as long as establishment owners allow them to - more people will get sick, & more will die.


I agree. While the great majority I see are keeping to the rules I always someone who's not following them, and those that are not are of all ages - older people who pull down the mask to talk to someone they meet in the street. Young people walking on a country path taking up the whole width, not wearing masks and not even getting to one side to allow you to pass (in those cases I ask them to put on their masks). Plenty of 30+, 40+ shaking hands with people, masks keeping their necks warm...


----------



## xabiaxica

Again on the news, a report from the street in Barcelona. 

Lots of people walking around without masks. The first time I saw it, you could clearly see their faces. 
Next time it was shown, they'd blurred them out! Just the eyes  You could still see the lack of a mask.


----------



## xabiaxica

The off topic stuff is now here https://www.expatforum.com/expats/l...tuff-covid-spain-thread-do-what-you-will.html


----------



## Williams2

xabiaxica said:


> The off topic stuff is now here https://www.expatforum.com/expats/l...tuff-covid-spain-thread-do-what-you-will.html


Great idea - maybe the thread should be called 'The Covid Anonymous thread' for those who think that the daily posting
of new outbreaks, facemasks are they good or bad ? or places you shouldn't travel to and those you 'wouldn't be 
seen dead, social distancing from' has really gone over the top but are game for being lampooned.


----------



## Isobella

Looking on the bright side most cases are asymptomatic. I think the virus strength is weakening.


----------



## Alcalaina

Isobella said:


> Looking on the bright side most cases are asymptomatic. I think the virus strength is weakening.


Most cases were probably always asymptomatic, it's just that because of contact tracing more of them are being identified and tested. Back in March only those who had to go into hospital got tested.

That's why the sudden rise in new cases in Spain (922 in 24 hours) isn't as scary as it seems.


Por qué el avance del virus es distinto al de marzo, pese a que los datos se parezcan


----------



## kaipa

So the news is that Spain is now on uk quarantine list!! Just 5 days after Scotland lifted it.


----------



## kaipa

Personally a bit of a blow as I booked a flight to uk on 8th of june for 14 August and I doubt Ryanair will refund. Still that's the way it goes!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> Personally a bit of a blow as I booked a flight to uk on 8th of june for 14 August and I doubt Ryanair will refund. Still that's the way it goes!


I don't know. I got my money back about 2 weeks ago from easyjet for a flight booked for Easter...


----------



## Joppa

UK government is announcing anyone arriving from Spain from the early hours of Sunday will have to self-isolate for 14 days.


----------



## Mark s

*Uk to quarantine Spain arrivals*

Just been announced on bbc news that people arriving back from Spain after midnight tonight will have to quarantine for 14 days due to a spike in COVID cases in Spain amid concerns By the uk govt of a second wave.

It’s a pity bojo didn’t follow Spain and other European countries plan to contain the virus in the first place. 
It has been a national And international disgrace the way our govt has handled this pandemic.


----------



## TanGem

Rumours a rife that Spain will go into lockdown very soon a friend who works for BA says they are going to be cancelling flights to Spain early next week due to the uncertainty. But again just rumour at this stage.


----------



## Megsmum

TanGem said:


> Rumours a rife that Spain will go into lockdown very soon a friend who works for BA says they are going to be cancelling flights to Spain early next week due to the uncertainty. But again just rumour at this stage.


They may be canceling flights, as they are now but they’ve flown throughout the pandemic to Madrid. I’m due to fly home to spain on the 8th August whilst my actual flight might be cancelled, I’m not too stressed, BA are even now amalgamating flights.


----------



## TanGem

Megsmum said:


> They may be canceling flights, as they are now but they’ve flown throughout the pandemic to Madrid. I’m due to fly home to spain on the 8th August whilst my actual flight might be cancelled, I’m not too stressed, BA are even now amalgamating flights.


Just got to hope that Spain don't do a tit for tat and slap a 14 quarantine on travellers from the U.K arriving in Spain.Can't see that but then again on the 12th of March who would have thought that on the 16th we'd be confined to our homes for 12 weeks.


----------



## xabiaxica

I don't think we'll have a full blown lockdown again, tbh. Localised ones, yes. 


Although positive test numbers are worrying, it has to be remembered that much more testing of asymptomatic people is happening, due to contact tracing & in some cases, the testing of just about everyone in the locality of a spike. 

Back in March, hardly anyone was tested unless they were hospitalised

These figures are a couple of days old, but hospitalisation numbers when compared to positive tests don't look too scary. 









https://english.elpais.com/society/...-CPbMKv7yF2PyqVtfelMNA1L6E#Echobox=1595603757


----------



## Megsmum

TanGem said:


> Just got to hope that Spain don't do a tit for tat and slap a 14 quarantine on travellers from the U.K arriving in Spain.Can't see that but then again on the 12th of March who would have thought that on the 16th we'd be confined to our homes for 12 weeks.


Personally speaking I am going into 14 days isolation when I get home. It’s 14 days versus spreading something that I don’t know I have, that I caught on the plane or the airport. I have friends who recently returned to spain they too went into 14 days isolation.

TBH the U.K. have got a brass nerve when Covid 19 is not under control here either.


----------



## Megsmum

xabiaxica said:


> I don't think we'll have a full blown lockdown again, tbh. Localised ones, yes.
> 
> 
> Although positive test numbers are worrying, it has to be remembered that much more testing of asymptomatic people is happening, due to contact tracing & in some cases, the testing of just about everyone in the locality of a spike.
> 
> Back in March, hardly anyone was tested unless they were hospitalised
> 
> These figures are a couple of days old, but hospitalisation numbers when compared to positive tests don't look too scary.
> 
> View attachment 92750
> 
> 
> https://english.elpais.com/society/...-CPbMKv7yF2PyqVtfelMNA1L6E#Echobox=1595603757



Totally agree. We are not in panic mode yet. I suspect governments will war of a near second spike to make people fearful ans obey the rules


----------



## Williams2

TanGem said:


> Just got to hope that Spain don't do a tit for tat and slap a 14 quarantine on travellers from the U.K arriving in Spain.Can't see that but then again on the 12th of March who would have thought that on the 16th we'd be confined to our homes for 12 weeks.


Has the Leicester outbreak been contained yet ? they're still in lockdown until 1st August.

BBC Leicestershire - Reopening shops during Leicester lockdown pointless

Meanwhile visitors who might have hoped to travel to holiday from Scotland to Spain are no doubt cancelling their plans.


----------



## TanGem

Williams2 said:


> Has the Leicester outbreak been contained yet ? they're still in lockdown until 1st August.
> 
> BBC Leicestershire - Reopening shops during Leicester lockdown pointless


What is your point?


----------



## Williams2

Megsmum said:


> Personally speaking I am going into 14 days isolation when I get home. It’s 14 days versus spreading something that I don’t know I have, that I caught on the plane or the airport. I have friends who recently returned to spain they too went into 14 days isolation.
> 
> TBH the U.K. have got a brass nerve when Covid 19 is not under control here either.


I wonder what happens to peoples travel insurance with the British governments Foreign Office,
today returning to advising against all but essential travel to Spain ?

UK.gov - Foreign travel advice to Spain


----------



## Megsmum

Williams2 said:


> I wonder what happens to peoples travel insurance with the British governments Foreign Office,
> today returning to advising against all but essential travel to Spain ?
> 
> UK.gov - Foreign travel advice to Spain


They’re covered if the FCO advice against non essential travel HOWEVER many insurance companies are not covering COVID issues as it a known pandemic. 

Whilst I have sone sympathy with people who have now been put in a precarious position re loss of money and then loss of income for self isolation, I refer back
To my parrot like statements. There will be outbreaks, there will be regional lockdowns, there will be incidents like this and people will die. 

I’m keeping everything crossed for the 8th August. I may not get away on that exact date but I’m sure I will some time around that date


----------



## kaipa

TanGem said:


> Rumours a rife that Spain will go into lockdown very soon a friend who works for BA says they are going to be cancelling flights to Spain early next week due to the uncertainty. But again just rumour at this stage.


What rumour? Spain cant just suddenly go into lockdown. The Spanish government is a coalition which relies on numerous other minority parties. To reactivate a State of Alarm they need to vote it through parliament and that is not easy as was evident in May. Many of the autonomous regions basically demanded individual control of things and that is more likely to continue as parliamentary unity is pretty much impossible.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

It wouldn't be a surprise if more and more local areas enforce more and more restrictions which in total would be similar to a nationwide lockdown. Perhaps restrictions on travel between areas will be the next thing to be put into force like it already is in parts of Catalonia I believe.


----------



## TanGem

kaipa said:


> *What rumour?* Spain cant just suddenly go into lockdown. The Spanish government is a coalition which relies on numerous other minority parties. To reactivate a State of Alarm they need to vote it through parliament and that is not easy as was evident in May. Many of the autonomous regions basically demanded individual control of things and that is more likely to continue as parliamentary unity is pretty much impossible.


Just general chatter on Social Media and if you want a specific source then your good self that said a few days ago here and I quote _"I fear we are heading back to National Lockdown"_

Post #253 on this thread.


----------



## kaipa

Pesky Wesky said:


> It wouldn't be a surprise if more and more local areas enforce more and more restrictions which in total would be similar to a nationwide lockdown. Perhaps restrictions on travel between areas will be the next thing to be put into force like it already is in parts of Catalonia I think it is.


Well next week is the beginning of the big exodus of the Spanish cities so they will need to get their heads together if the want to restrict movement.


----------



## Megsmum

Pesky Wesky said:


> It wouldn't be a surprise if more and more local areas enforce more and more restrictions which in total would be similar to a nationwide lockdown. Perhaps restrictions on travel between areas will be the next thing to be put into force like it already is in parts of Catalonia I believe.


I’ve read that it’s mainly the north of Spain with major issues re an increase of cases which could be due to more test etx. 

What the situation in Madrid as that’s the airport I fly into and then drive back to Extremadura?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Megsmum said:


> I’ve read that it’s mainly the north of Spain with major issues re an increase of cases which could be due to more test etx.
> 
> What the situation in Madrid as that’s the airport I fly into and then drive back to Extremadura?


 The government in Madrid is intent on living life in a parallel universe and as far as I know because this is changing all the time, it's the only region where the mask is not obligatory all the time regardless of if you are outside / inside, 2m away etc. 

In Madrid it seems Ayuso has been able to sanitise the air in a way which other regions have not been able to and the children will go back to school in September, shops, bars, disco's will remain open.... You get the idea.
In Madrid airport (Aldolfo Suarez), well in all Spanish airports there are 2 controls


Observation. Yes, that means they look at you. Such a potent control
Your temperature is taken automatically
Have a good trip when the time comes


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Megsmum said:


> I’ve read that it’s mainly the north of Spain with major issues re an increase of cases which could be due to more test etx.


 Not only in the north. Look at this map from today! But many say that this is due the testing as you mention
https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20200726/cuantos-brotes-coronavirus-hay-espana/2018947.shtml


----------



## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> Not only in the north. Look at this map from today! But many say that this is due the testing as you mention
> https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20200726/cuantos-brotes-coronavirus-hay-espana/2018947.shtml


But this map clearly shows that the problem IS concentrated in the northeast, and to a lesser extent the Mediterranean coast. Virtually the whole western half of the country is clear, apart from a handful of small outbreaks which are under control.


----------



## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> The government in Madrid is intent on living life in a parallel universe and as far as I know because this is changing all the time, it's the only region where the mask is not obligatory all the time regardless of if you are outside / inside, 2m away etc.
> 
> In Madrid it seems Ayuso has been able to sanitise the air in a way which other regions have not been able to and the children will go back to school in September, shops, bars, disco's will remain open.... You get the idea.
> In Madrid airport (Aldolfo Suarez), well in all Spanish airports there are 2 controls
> 
> 
> Observation. Yes, that means they look at you. Such a potent control
> Your temperature is taken automatically
> Have a good trip when the time comes


Not wishing to be seen to be supporting Ayuso and her crowd, but I do wonder what real effect the "masks always required" rule is really achieving in other regions.
Having now spent time out of Madrid and seeing the relaxed attitude and lack of policing of the stricter rules, I think that it is of questionable real use. 
I don't think that there is a lower use of masks in Madrid than elsewhere.


----------



## kaipa

Overandout said:


> Pesky Wesky said:
> 
> 
> 
> The government in Madrid is intent on living life in a parallel universe and as far as I know because this is changing all the time, it's the only region where the mask is not obligatory all the time regardless of if you are outside / inside, 2m away etc.
> 
> In Madrid it seems Ayuso has been able to sanitise the air in a way which other regions have not been able to and the children will go back to school in September, shops, bars, disco's will remain open.... You get the idea.
> In Madrid airport (Aldolfo Suarez), well in all Spanish airports there are 2 controls
> 
> 
> Observation. Yes, that means they look at you. Such a potent control
> Your temperature is taken automatically
> Have a good trip when the time comes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not wishing to be seen to be supporting Ayuso and her crowd, but I do wonder what real effect the "masks always required" rule is really achieving in other regions.
> Having now spent time out of Madrid and seeing the relaxed attitude and lack of policing of the stricter rules, I think that it is of questionable real use.
> I don't think that there is a lower use of masks in Madrid than elsewhere.
Click to expand...

I do kind of agree with you here and it is probably more a behavioural than preventable. Ayuso is simply playing to her crowd. More important is the need to restrict the actual activities which at the moment seem to carry more risks, ie nightclubs, bars ,weddings, parties, botellones. If they can apply stricter conditions on these things now its possible they could get some control back.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> Not wishing to be seen to be supporting Ayuso and her crowd, but I do wonder what real effect the "masks always required" rule is really achieving in other regions.
> Having now spent time out of Madrid and seeing the relaxed attitude and lack of policing of the stricter rules, I think that it is of questionable real use.
> I don't think that there is a lower use of masks in Madrid than elsewhere.


 I think "masks always required" sends an easy-to-understand message to people, one that is not open to interpretation, one that is easy to follow. I also think wearing a mask for the very great majority of the population doesn't cause any harm. It may be uncomfortable, but it doesn't generally speaking cause damage and might, just might actually help fight the virus - a small price to pay I think.

As to use of masks in Madrid, depends what Madrid you're talking about - Madrid capital I would hope no one is walking around without a mask. Madrid Getafe, Mosteles, Alcobendas - they are big places with more police around, more urban...Madrid comunidad, small town or small village, people get more relaxed out of urban areas and where they know the people around them


----------



## baldilocks

Overandout said:


> Not wishing to be seen to be supporting Ayuso and her crowd, but I do wonder what real effect the "masks always required" rule is really achieving in other regions.
> *Having now spent time out of Madrid and seeing the relaxed attitude and lack of policing of the stricter rules, I think that it is of questionable real use. *
> I don't think that there is a lower use of masks in Madrid than elsewhere.


Around here, you won't see police but you WILL see everybody wearing a mask


----------



## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think "masks always required" sends an easy-to-understand message to people, one that is not open to interpretation, one that is easy to follow. I also think wearing a mask for the very great majority of the population doesn't cause any harm. It may be uncomfortable, but it doesn't generally speaking cause damage and might, just might actually help fight the virus - a small price to pay I think.
> 
> As to use of masks in Madrid, depends what Madrid you're talking about - Madrid capital I would hope no one is walking around without a mask. Madrid Getafe, Mosteles, Alcobendas - they are big places with more police around, more urban...Madrid comunidad, small town or small village, people get more relaxed out of urban areas and where they know the people around them


What I mean is simply that by establishing the rule, I don't think they would obtain any significant increase in the use of masks. 
Those that won't wear one now are already normally breaking the existing laws, but there is not sufficient policing, so changing the law would be merely political.


----------



## Overandout

baldilocks said:


> Around here, you won't see police but you WILL see everybody wearing a mask


Everyone you see might be wearing one, but nowhere has complete compliance.


----------



## Williams2

Overandout said:


> Everyone you see might be wearing one, but nowhere has complete compliance.


I agree here in Asturias everyones wearing a mask in the shops and even when they're out & about walking,
even around wide open spaces but as soon as they meet friends at streetside tables at cafebars or restaurants
the masks soon slip off.


----------



## xabiaxica

Williams2 said:


> I agree here in Asturias everyones wearing a mask in the shops and even when they're out & about walking,
> even around wide open spaces but *as soon as they meet friends at streetside tables at cafebars or restaurants
> the masks soon slip off.*


...which is unfortunately the source of most recent outbreaks. Socialising without wearing a mask.


----------



## kaipa

Ximo Puig I see is trying to negotiate an air corridor between Valencia province and UK so as to avoid the quarantine. Similar sentiments coming from the islands. No doubt the UK government who seem to make knee- jerk decisions as part of their policy on how to handle the crisis will announce they are considering this and by next next the quarantine will lifted or reduced and Boris and the Brexit supporting rags will be encouraging everyone to fly off to the sun again. Meanwhile by end of August Britain will be struggling with it's own second wave and the government will be desperately looking for someone else to blame. And round and round we go until Oxford university announce their vaccine is safe, then the union jack will fly, street parties will flourish and Boris will announce that Britain saved the world and everything is going to great ( again)


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> Ximo Puig I see is trying to negotiate an air corridor between Valencia province and UK so as to avoid the quarantine. Similar sentiments coming from the islands. No doubt the UK government who seem to make knee- jerk decisions as part of their policy on how to handle the crisis will announce they are considering this and by next next the quarantine will lifted or reduced and Boris and the Brexit supporting rags will be encouraging everyone to fly off to the sun again. Meanwhile by end of August Britain will be struggling with it's own second wave and the government will be desperately looking for someone else to blame. And round and round we go until Oxford university announce their vaccine is safe, then the union jack will fly, street parties will flourish and Boris will announce that Britain saved the world and everything is going to great ( again)


The cynic in new thinks that the U.K. is trying to promote U.K. holidays to keep the money in house, I can’t say I blame them as such, I can’t see any logic in the sudden ban on Spain, the irony is though the U.K. have been added to The Irish republics no entry list


----------



## Isobella

Megsmum said:


> The cynic in new thinks that the U.K. is trying to promote U.K. holidays to keep the money in house, I can’t say I blame them as such, I can’t see any logic in the sudden ban on Spain, the irony is though the U.K. have been added to The Irish republics no entry list


One reason was that infection rate in Spain is now 35.1% per 100,000 and UK 14.7% per 100,000. Norway has put a 10 day quarantine for those travelling back from Spain too and France is considering it. I couldn’t see any logic to opening air bridges anyway even though I am going to France shortly. We have booked 2 nights in favourite spa hotel on the coast UK for next week. We wanted 3 rooms and they only had 2 left but perhaps it is always like that high season.

Lifting the travel ban and then imposing it again will have caused even more damage to the travel industry.

Due to the spikes it makes me think that masks are useless.


----------



## TanGem

Isobella said:


> One reason was that infection rate in Spain is now *35.1% per 100,000 and UK 14.7% per 100,000*. Norway has put a 10 day quarantine for those travelling back from Spain too and France is considering it. I couldn’t see any logic to opening air bridges anyway even though I am going to France shortly. We have booked 2 nights in favourite spa hotel on the coast UK for next week. We wanted 3 rooms and they only had 2 left but perhaps it is always like that high season.
> 
> Lifting the travel ban and then imposing it again will have caused even more damage to the travel industry.
> 
> Due to the spikes it makes me think that masks are useless.


What complete nonsense......do you realise what you've written? 35,000 people in Spain per 100,000 are infected by Covid 19.......


----------



## Joppa

It's 0.0351%.


----------



## kaipa

Isobella said:


> Megsmum said:
> 
> 
> 
> The cynic in new thinks that the U.K. is trying to promote U.K. holidays to keep the money in house, I can’t say I blame them as such, I can’t see any logic in the sudden ban on Spain, the irony is though the U.K. have been added to The Irish republics no entry list
> 
> 
> 
> One reason was that infection rate in Spain is now 35.1% per 100,000 and UK 14.7% per 100,000. Norway has put a 10 day quarantine for those travelling back from Spain too and France is considering it. I couldn’t see any logic to opening air bridges anyway even though I am going to France shortly. We have booked 2 nights in favourite spa hotel on the coast UK for next week. We wanted 3 rooms and they only had 2 left but perhaps it is always like that high season.
> 
> Lifting the travel ban and then imposing it again will have caused even more damage to the travel industry.
> 
> Due to the spikes it makes me think that masks are useless.
Click to expand...

Are you sure about those figures? Wouldn't that mean nearly 40% of the population are infected?


----------



## Isobella

TanGem said:


> What complete nonsense......do you realise what you've written? 35,000 people in Spain per 100,000 are infected by Covid 19.......


Sorry I put in % figure is still the same
Infection rate uk 14.7 per 100,000, Spain 35.1. Although when I checked BBC has Spain at 39.7

Will put on link.

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/cases-2019-ncov-eueea


----------



## Williams2

kaipa said:


> Ximo Puig I see is trying to negotiate an air corridor between Valencia province and UK so as to avoid the quarantine. Similar sentiments coming from the islands. No doubt the UK government who seem to make knee- jerk decisions as part of their policy on how to handle the crisis will announce they are considering this and by next next the quarantine will lifted or reduced and Boris and the Brexit supporting rags will be encouraging everyone to fly off to the sun again. Meanwhile by end of August Britain will be struggling with it's own second wave and the government will be desperately looking for someone else to blame. And round and round we go until Oxford university announce their vaccine is safe, then the union jack will fly, street parties will flourish and Boris will announce that Britain saved the world and everything is going to great ( again)


Steady on they only just celebrated 75 years since VE Day ( admittedly in their own back
gardens during lockdown ) now sadly Dame Vera Lynn will not be there to mark
VOC ( Victory over Covid ) Day - whenever that day might be ?


----------



## Megsmum

I’m not too concerned about the infection rate, more testing more infections however the death rate is still and continues to be lower on a total and a daily basis in Spain than in the U.K. might be wrong but I’m not sure testing in the U.K. is as much as Spain, but not sure &#55358;&#56596; 


From the link you gave

Death rates are more relevant. But again it is where we are, as for masks being useless to a degree I agree, as is quarantine in the U.K. everything the U.K. has done has been after the horse has bolted. Back in March and when lockdown was eased that was the time for quarantine and masks.


----------



## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> I’m not too concerned about the infection rate, more testing more infections however the death rate is still and continues to be lower on a total and a daily basis in Spain than in the U.K. might be wrong but I’m not sure testing in the U.K. is as much as Spain, but not sure ��
> 
> 
> From the link you gave
> 
> Death rates are more relevant. But again it is where we are, as for masks being useless to a degree I agree, as is quarantine in the U.K. everything the U.K. has done has been after the horse has bolted. Back in March and when lockdown was eased that was the time for quarantine and masks.


The UK claims to have carried out more tests than Spain. 

I do agree that hospitalisation & death rates are more telling than contagion numbers. 


The most telling figures will be excesss deaths over & above the figures for previous years.


----------



## Isobella

Megsmum said:


> I’m not too concerned about the infection rate, more testing more infections however the death rate is still and continues to be lower on a total and a daily basis in Spain than in the U.K. might be wrong but I’m not sure testing in the U.K. is as much as Spain, but not sure ��
> 
> 
> From the link you gave
> 
> Death rates are more relevant. But again it is where we are, as for masks being useless to a degree I agree, as is quarantine in the U.K. everything the U.K. has done has been after the horse has bolted. Back in March and when lockdown was eased that was the time for quarantine and masks.


I am not concerned about the figures at all. I was pointing out that is one of the reasons for the present change in Quarantine for travellers from Spain, according to BBC today.
I agree, UK should have closed it’s borders when other countries did.


----------



## kaipa

Barcelona now reaching the same levels as march with the President warning of a complete lock down if the situation hasn't improved in 10 days. One of the main problems is that like Madrid people in Barcelona love the summer nightlife. It really is a huge cultural aspect. Eating late and then at maybe midnight going for drinks, then clubs etc. And this happening even during the working week. So it's not easy to deal with this. Closing bars , clubs where people essentially live their lives is a huge decision hence the reason that they at the moment close at 2.00am which seems wierd to us Brits. So this is the problem that the big urban cities have: implementing a cultural change.


----------



## Isobella

xabiaxica said:


> The UK claims to have carried out more tests than Spain.
> 
> I do agree that hospitalisation & death rates are more telling than contagion numbers.
> 
> 
> The most telling figures will be excesss deaths over & above the figures for previous years.


I doubt we shall ever know. El Pais said deaths in Spain could be 60% higher than official figure. Heard similar about UK. I saw on TV that although USA has had the most cases they have had the least deaths. Some say deaths will be lower when analysed. I think figures are very suspect from some rogue countries outside Europe.


----------



## Williams2

More on the Coronavirus surge in Catalonia and it's effects on British tourists.

Coronavirus - Spain races to save tourism as cases surge

UK non-essential travel advice to Spain now extends to the Balearic and Canary Islands.


----------



## Beach buddy

Just announced 10 day quarantine instead of 14!


----------



## Williams2

Beach buddy said:


> Just announced 10 day quarantine instead of 14!


Even less for Dominic Cummings !!


----------



## kaipa

Beach buddy said:


> Just announced 10 day quarantine instead of 14!


Where did you hear that?


----------



## kaipa

I have to say the UK government really are useless in a way other countries aren't and this confirms so many things that were said about Boris Johnson's Brexit party. I mean last night they officially said only travel to Spain if it is considered essential. Now this morning we have a minister on Sky news saying " I wouldn't advise people not to go to Spain".!!!. I mean this almost irresistible of the government. How on earth are people meant to trust them. They have a duty to protect us and look out for our interests and it's clear that they simply operate on a day to day manner reacting only to the press


----------



## Megsmum

Beach buddy said:


> Just announced 10 day quarantine instead of 14!


Ca you source that information please because as far as I know nothing has been announced apart from now including FCO advising against travel to the Islands as well as the mainland. 



kaipa said:


> I have to say the UK government really are useless in a way other countries aren't and this confirms so many things that were said about Boris Johnson's Brexit party. I mean last night they officially said only travel to Spain if it is considered essential. Now this morning we have a minister on Sky news saying " I wouldn't advise people not to go to Spain".!!!. I mean this almost irresistible of the government. How on earth are people meant to trust them. They have a duty to protect us and look out for our interests and it's clear that they simply operate on a day to day manner reacting only to the press



Go on holiday book book book no stay at home, but still go away. Loose weight but enjoy your 50% off eating out, but stay at home but eat out.

TBH even many conservative voters that I know have, in respect of Covid19, lost all faith in this government capability of dealing with it. But when you vote in a blubbering idioit and you can no longer use well worn phrases such as control of our borders then that’s what you get, A la Trump.

The U.K. is now in knee jerk response, I suspect having been criticised about shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted, this is some sort of, look we are in control. After all, whilst the travel industry will be hit, the money that would have been spent in Spain will now be spent in the U.K. I really believe that with the heavily promoted holiday in U.K. adverts across the media, that is the end game, with Bojo et all all proclaiming they’re holidaying in U.K. however most people I know do not want to holiday in the U.K. , far too expensive and crap weather.

This, to me, smacks of Demonic Cummings


----------



## xabiaxica

THIS makes sense!

https://www.abc.es/sociedad/abci-al...-cataluna-y-navarra-202007281058_noticia.html


----------



## Megsmum

xabiaxica said:


> THIS makes sense!
> 
> https://www.abc.es/sociedad/abci-al...-cataluna-y-navarra-202007281058_noticia.html


U.K. government and sense... not two words I think one could put in a simple sentence!


----------



## kaipa

xabiaxica said:


> THIS makes sense!
> 
> https://www.abc.es/sociedad/abci-al...-cataluna-y-navarra-202007281058_noticia.html


Of course it does. Germany sits and thinks through all the ramifications before making its public announcements. The UK really does seem to make its mind up daily. It's a complete farce.
I see today that Sanchez seems really angry and there was definitely something of a threat hidden in there relating to Brexit and one assumes he could be looking at reciprocracy. Maybe Brits have to match the same conditions the UK will impose on spanish seeking uk residency!!!


----------



## Isobella

Megsmum said:


> Ca you source that information please because as far as I know nothing has been announced apart from now including FCO advising against travel to the Islands as well as the mainland.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Go on holiday book book book no stay at home, but still go away. Loose weight but enjoy your 50% off eating out, but stay at home but eat out.
> 
> TBH even many conservative voters that I know have, in respect of Covid19, lost all faith in this government capability of dealing with it. But when you vote in a blubbering idioit and you can no longer use well worn phrases such as control of our borders then that’s what you get, A la Trump.
> 
> The U.K. is now in knee jerk response, I suspect having been criticised about shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted, this is some sort of, look we are in control. After all, whilst the travel industry will be hit, the money that would have been spent in Spain will now be spent in the U.K. I really believe that with the heavily promoted holiday in U.K. adverts across the media, that is the end game, with Bojo et all all proclaiming they’re holidaying in U.K. however most people I know do not want to holiday in the U.K. , far too expensive and crap weather.
> 
> This, to me, smacks of Demonic Cummings


I don’t think it is a plot. Why do all the air bridges? There was also no indication that Spain would be hit by a spike. Norway has done the same. Even before restrictions a majority of people said they would not risk flying this year. 
The outbreak in Spain is not limited to the North. A lot of brotes in Andalucia according to Diario Sur yesterday. One in Marbella. It is Whitty who claims responsibility for the Spanish warning after seeing figures from the European agency. He also states that people returning from Spain testing positive.

A bit ironic a couple of weeks ago messages in the media saying they did not want the Brits only the nice Germans. Even expats said they didn’t want other Brits, lots interviewed on TV. At least some are happy.

I do think that just testing positive shouldN’t be an indicator, should be how many are actually showing symptoms and ill. If tests had been taken during the flu season a couple of years ago when there were excess deaths it would probably caused the same hysteria.


----------



## Isobella

xabiaxica said:


> THIS makes sense!
> 
> https://www.abc.es/sociedad/abci-al...-cataluna-y-navarra-202007281058_noticia.html


On the other hand the UK was slammed when they did nothing.


----------



## Isobella

Headline now in The Mail WHITTEY KILLED SPANISH HOLIDAYS


----------



## kaipa

Isobella said:


> Headline now in The Mail WHITTEY KILLED SPANISH HOLIDAYS



Yes and I bet the government are delighted by that headline because in Britain the buck stops with anyone as long as it's not BJ


----------



## TanGem

Isobella said:


> Headline now in The Mail WHITTEY KILLED SPANISH HOLIDAYS


Whittey is nothing more than a fully bought Fall Guy doing his paymasters bidding......strange you don't hear much from Prof Van Tam these days since he refused to agree with Boris and actively and forcefully made a point at one of the briefings regarding Cummings roadtrip.


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> Yes and I bet the government are delighted by that headline because in Britain the buck stops with anyone as long as it's not BJ





TanGem said:


> Whittey is nothing more than a fully bought Fall Guy doing his paymasters bidding......strange you don't hear much from Prof Van Tam these days since he refused to agree with Boris and actively and forcefully made a point at one of the briefings regarding Cummings roadtrip.


I foresee the future 

Arise Sir whittey


----------



## Isobella

He is already a Sir


----------



## Isobella

Isobella said:


> Sorry I put in % figure is still the same
> Infection rate uk 14.7 per 100,000, Spain 35.1. Although when I checked BBC has Spain at 39.7
> 
> Will put on link.
> 
> https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/cases-2019-ncov-eueea


Infection rate still rising, Spain now 47.2. France 16. Germany 8.8. UK 15

Probably the PM or whoever has done the right thing.


----------



## Alcalaina

Germany are now testing everyone who returns from Spain and other Covid hotspots, at the traveller's expense.

This would seem a much more sensible option. If you don't want to self-isolate for 14 days, pay for a test.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...mpfH9D9QVhmD2KsW2XwD6o6NUsgLg3CnGV0v2LRse2lzk


----------



## TanGem

Isobella said:


> Infection rate still rising, Spain now 47.2. France 16. Germany 8.8. UK 15
> 
> Probably the PM or whoever has done the right thing.


And still the death rate in Spain is far far less than the U.K....

and to put it in perspective in Spain for every 100,000 people only 0.05% of them have Covid

and in the U.K for every 100,000 people only 0.02% of them have Covid

Not so alarmist when put like that....wouldn't make an attention grabbing Daily Mail Headline now would it?


----------



## kaipa

I see Ayuso is saying that people who have anti-bodies to Covid will be exempt from restrictions. She wants a certificate that you will carry which will allow you to go to bars, gyms etc. Which she claims is great idea.. Oh yeah...Ayuso has had Covid so.....


----------



## TanGem

kaipa said:


> I see Ayuso is saying that people who have anti-bodies to Covid will be exempt from restrictions. She wants a certificate that you will carry which will allow you to go to bars, gyms etc. Which she claims is great idea.. Oh yeah...Ayuso has had Covid so.....


That will be a nice little earner in counterfeit certificates


----------



## kaipa

TanGem said:


> kaipa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I see Ayuso is saying that people who have anti-bodies to Covid will be exempt from restrictions. She wants a certificate that you will carry which will allow you to go to bars, gyms etc. Which she claims is great idea.. Oh yeah...Ayuso has had Covid so.....
> 
> 
> 
> That will be a nice little earner in counterfeit certificates
Click to expand...

Not mention legality: discrimination


----------



## Isobella

TanGem said:


> And still the death rate in Spain is far far less than the U.K....
> 
> and to put it in perspective in Spain for every 100,000 people only 0.05% of them have Covid
> 
> and in the U.K for every 100,000 people only 0.02% of them have Covid
> 
> Not so alarmist when put like that....wouldn't make an attention grabbing Daily Mail Headline now would it?


NOT been in the DM it is from the European centre for disease prevention and control which is what countries are watching and basing decisions on. I am watching it because I am going to France soon.


----------



## TanGem

Isobella said:


> NOT been in the DM it is from the European centre for disease prevention and control which is what countries are watching and basing decisions on. I am watching it because I am going to France soon.


Similarly from the ECDC Figures for France. On a personal level if I thought that for every 100,000 French people that only 0.05% had Covid I would be cautiously optimistic that I may avoid that 0.05%.....I would be more likely to get food poisoning from La Tour d'Argent in Paris or being pick pocketed at the Grand-Hotel du Cap-Ferrat in Nice, but I wouldn't spend days trawling the web for statistics on either example


----------



## Megsmum

Isobella said:


> I don’t think it is a plot. Why do all the air bridges? There was also no indication that Spain would be hit by a spike. Norway has done the same. Even before restrictions a majority of people said they would not risk flying this year.
> The outbreak in Spain is not limited to the North. A lot of brotes in Andalucia according to Diario Sur yesterday. One in Marbella. It is Whitty who claims responsibility for the Spanish warning after seeing figures from the European agency. He also states that people returning from Spain testing positive.
> 
> A bit ironic a couple of weeks ago messages in the media saying they did not want the Brits only the nice Germans. Even expats said they didn’t want other Brits, lots interviewed on TV. At least some are happy.
> 
> I do think that just testing positive shouldN’t be an indicator, should be how many are actually showing symptoms and ill. If tests had been taken during the flu season a couple of years ago when there were excess deaths it would probably caused the same hysteria.


It was somewhat tongue in cheek, but Prof Whitty is no longer credible and I see no logic from the U.K. government at all. As for mixed messages in the media I don’t believe that any of the media represents anyone TBH.


----------



## TanGem

Megsmum said:


> It was somewhat tongue in cheek, but Prof Whitty is no longer credible and I see no logic from the U.K. government at all. As for mixed messages in the media I don’t believe that any of the media represents anyone TBH.


The Prof has not been credible since his "cabaret" career came to light


----------



## Overandout

Alcalaina said:


> Germany are now testing everyone who returns from Spain and other Covid hotspots, at the traveller's expense.
> 
> This would seem a much more sensible option. If you don't want to self-isolate for 14 days, pay for a test.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...mpfH9D9QVhmD2KsW2XwD6o6NUsgLg3CnGV0v2LRse2lzk


They don't seem to be really sure where those hotspots are though, do they?

Is the UK included?


----------



## Megsmum

TanGem said:


> The Prof has not been credible since his "cabaret" career came to light
> 
> View attachment 92762


Based on that, and I am unaware if it, most of the leading consultants I worked with would not be credible. I base the credibility of someone professional capabilities on how they act in that profession not how they enjoy leisure time. Whitty went down in my estimations following the Cummings affair


----------



## Overandout

Well, Trumpeta has excelled herself again!

Masks now obligatory finally.
Discos and bars to close at 1.30

And, drum roll please, a sanitary passport for anyone who has had the virus already, or has antibodies.... 

Presumably the use of the word antibody in the plural means that two are enough....


----------



## mrypg9

Germany are using viral tests which I read are a more accurate predictor.


----------



## mrypg9

TanGem said:


> The Prof has not been credible since his "cabaret" career came to light
> 
> View attachment 92762


Nothing to do with credibility. 

I read that the great German composer Richard Wagner enjoyed wearing pink silk ladies' drawers.

Still my favourite operatic composer and his music enjoyed by millions.

Personal and professional lives are distinct and should be seen as such.


----------



## TanGem

mrypg9 said:


> Nothing to do with credibility.
> 
> I read that the great German composer Richard Wagner enjoyed wearing pink silk ladies' drawers.
> 
> Still my favourite operatic composer and his music enjoyed by millions.
> 
> Personal and professional lives are distinct and should be seen as such.


Spot on, couldn't agree more:clap2:


----------



## baldilocks

meanwhile the Tory clowns continue to perform in boris's three ring circus:
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...tm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&CMP=GTUK_email
Why do the tories always seem to put the biggest idiots in charge of Transport?


----------



## Megsmum

So true of most social mecía outlets at this time


----------



## arielmaslorens

Finally, this date was the new end of our 2020 calendar. Covid is coming back and we´ll be all year long inhouse


----------



## TanGem

As Brenda would say.......Not again
https://www.euroweeklynews.com/2020...uwYNMKjUshclh3fY8vnIrNbLZDcxbh98DrvcnrWFNBlZA


----------



## Pesky Wesky

TanGem said:


> As Brenda would say.......Not again
> https://www.euroweeklynews.com/2020...uwYNMKjUshclh3fY8vnIrNbLZDcxbh98DrvcnrWFNBlZA


 We might well be heading for another lockdown, but why the 18th of September as stated in this article? A lot of conjecture there it would seem.
Ahhh having now read the article I see it's phase 3 of a supposed three phase programme... Well, could be..


----------



## Beach buddy

Pesky Wesky said:


> We might well be heading for another lockdown, but why the 18th of September as stated in this article? A lot of conjecture there it would seem.
> Ahhh having now read the article I see it's phase 3 of a supposed three phase programme... Well, could be..


How true is this ? Too many false reports floating around.


----------



## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> We might well be heading for another lockdown, but why the 18th of September as stated in this article? A lot of conjecture there it would seem.
> Ahhh having now read the article I see it's phase 3 of a supposed three phase programme... Well, could be..


Schools due back? When Sanchez or one of the other political leaders is due back from holiday?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Beach buddy said:


> How true is this ? Too many false reports floating around.


I don't think the evidence in the article is necessarily true.
I do think it's a possibility though. The schools will have been back in most places at least 7 days by then - just enough time for the virus to get a grip and for all of those kiddies to have taken it back to their parents, who might just have started working from the office again...


----------



## Megsmum

At sometime we have to get kids BACK to school and parents WORKING. The simple truth is that no country can sustain continuing lockdowns with regards to this virus without Severe economic and mental health issues to The general population.


----------



## kaipa

Megsmum said:


> At sometime we have to get kids BACK to school and parents WORKING. The simple truth is that no country can sustain continuing lockdowns with regards to this virus without Severe economic and mental health issues to The general population.


Easier said than done. How will people react if they are told that deaths will occur that could have been prevented but the economy now must take priority? That will look like a reversal of policy and to pull it off will mean having to get a large amount of public opinion on side and a an acceptance of an approach that until now is supported by Trump and other right wine popularised!!


----------



## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> At sometime we have to get kids BACK to school and parents WORKING. The simple truth is that no country can sustain continuing lockdowns with regards to this virus without Severe economic and mental health issues to The general population.


Personally I doubt that we'll have another national lockdown, unless it gets to the stage that hospitals can't cope. Even then I imagine that lockdowns will be as they are atm. At town, health area of provincial level & brief, until the outbreak is contained. 

Contagion numbers might well be high atm, but hospitalisation & ICU levels are being coped with, with the once exception of a hospital in Cataluña which was reported to be struggling last week. 

Maybe it will disappear one day. Maybe an effective vaccine will be produced.

Until then we just have to adapt to living with it. Whether that includes more remote working, social distancing, masks, hand gel, part time school with online or taped classes in order to keep numbers down or whatever - we just have to get on with it.


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> Easier said than done. How will people react if they are told that deaths will occur that could have been prevented but the economy now must take priority? That will look like a reversal of policy and to pull it off will mean having to get a large amount of public opinion on side and a an acceptance of an approach that until now is supported by Trump and other right wine popularised!!





xabiaxica said:


> Personally I doubt that we'll have another national lockdown, unless it gets to the stage that hospitals can't cope. Even then I imagine that lockdowns will be as they are atm. At town, health area of provincial level & brief, until the outbreak is contained.
> 
> Contagion numbers might well be high atm, but hospitalisation & ICU levels are being coped with, with the once exception of a hospital in Cataluña which was reported to be struggling a few weeks ago.
> 
> Maybe it will disappear one day. Maybe an effective vaccine will be produced.
> 
> Until then we just have to adapt to living with it. Whether that includes more remote working, social distancing, masks, hand gel, part time school with online or taped classes in order to keep numbers down or whatever - we just have to get on with it.


Exactly. Of course it’s not going to be easy, but afaik the death rate , whilst awful, is not a huge chunk of the general population. We have to get on with it, the children of Spain’s future depends on adults putting on their big girl Knickers and living with the virus. Deaths will occur just as they do with every other illness. What about those people not receiving cancer care, cardiac therapy, too scared to go to the DRs . I agree with X, and I’ve always said from day one, most people will get it and recover, many will die, the vulnerable will suffer and as with any disease, some young fit and usually healthy individuals will suffer, but more people will suffer in the long term from the economic impact of this virus, children won’t be educated, families will be out of work, an already struggling state pension scheme will suffer even more, infrastructure will suffer.

A lockdown worries me more about the economy than the virus itself. We just need to get on with it


----------



## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> Exactly. Of course it’s not going to be easy, but afaik the death rate , whilst awful, is not a huge chunk of the general population. We have to get on with it, the children of Spain’s future depends on adults putting on their big girl Knickers and living with the virus. Deaths will occur just as they do with every other illness. What about those people not receiving cancer care, cardiac therapy, too scared to go to the DRs . I agree with X, and I’ve always said from day one, most people will get it and recover, many will die, the vulnerable will suffer and as with any disease, some young fit and usually healthy individuals will suffer, but more people will suffer in the long term from the economic impact of this virus, children won’t be educated, families will be out of work, an already struggling state pension scheme will suffer even more, infrastructure will suffer.
> 
> A lockdown worries me more about the economy than the virus itself. We just need to get on with it


My hip surgery has now been cancelled twice  

Yes, a balance needs to be struck - but we need to learn to live with it. 

The initial lockdown was to give (some) countries time to put systems for dealing with the virus in place. 

It's still an ongoing project of course, with tweaks & changes as more is learned about how the virus works. 

All deaths are sad of course, as are some of the ongoing problems experienced by some who have recovered - but it does seem to be the case that ther vast majority are either completely asymptomatic or mildly affected.


----------



## kaipa

The problem with the schools is that as soon as a contagion arrives parents and teachers will be hard convinced to keep returning their children and working. It doesn't matter what governments say once people know where a contagion is they simply wont obey the law. The schools in Spain have appeared to reject online teaching saying everything will be presenciales. Better would be to concentrate on those students and ages where online teaching isnt effective and allow older and more able students to study online. This would at least reduce the numbers and so help better control.


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> The problem with the schools is that as soon as a contagion arrives parents and teachers will be hard convinced to keep returning their children and working. It doesn't matter what governments say once people know where a contagion is they simply wont obey the law. The schools in Spain have appeared to reject online teaching saying everything will be presenciales. Better would be to concentrate on those students and ages where online teaching isnt effective and allow older and more able students to study online. This would at least reduce the numbers and so help better control.


Then that leads to local lock downs. We can not deny children proper education because of a virus that we have no vaccine and no way of curing it. What about these older children what age? Is it safe to leave children at home whilst their parents work

We do not need national lockdowns in areas where there is no mass contagion . 

When I was in the U.K. the second wave was coming after Bournemouth beach was packed, it didn’t, then when pubs opened, it didn’t.... 

We need to move on, and live and cope until and if a vaccine comes along


----------



## Pipeman

I'm surprised no "nation" has announced an additional number of TV channels which will show national curriculum lessons. One channel for each year group as it must be far easier to watch TV than organise online devices for students


----------



## kaipa

Children over the age of 14 can be left at home. Some children are capable of learning well in online situations and find it a more efficient use of time. All of my bacheriato kids did well in the exams and said they didnt mind working from home. I think parents have to step up a bit here and take some responsibility for their children. People are very quick to talk about how we need to adapt to the new norm but then seem to complain when it is applied to schools. One thing for sure is that schools will be shut on individual basis and once the pattern starts to emerge of poorer schools being more disadvantaged then you can see how a national program of how to educate fairly without prejudicing sectors of society will need to be rolled out.


----------



## Isobella

Megsmum said:


> Then that leads to local lock downs. We can not deny children proper education because of a virus that we have no vaccine and no way of curing it. What about these older children what age? Is it safe to leave children at home whilst their parents work
> 
> We do not need national lockdowns in areas where there is no mass contagion .
> 
> When I was in the U.K. the second wave was coming after Bournemouth beach was packed, it didn’t, then when pubs opened, it didn’t....
> 
> We need to move on, and live and cope until and if a vaccine comes along


Exactly. West Sussex hospitals haven’t had a death for two months yet treatments/ tests for Cancer etc are Not back to normal. There will be more deaths than from Covid.
Children are mixing anyway , out playing with their mates. Seems we are now living to prevent death.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiaxica said:


> Personally I doubt that we'll have another national lockdown, unless it gets to the stage that hospitals can't cope. Even then I imagine that lockdowns will be as they are atm. At town, health area of provincial level & brief, until the outbreak is contained.
> 
> Contagion numbers might well be high atm, but hospitalisation & ICU levels are being coped with, with the once exception of a hospital in Cataluña which was reported to be struggling last week.
> 
> Maybe it will disappear one day. Maybe an effective vaccine will be produced.
> 
> Until then we just have to adapt to living with it. Whether that includes more remote working, social distancing, masks, hand gel, part time school with online or taped classes in order to keep numbers down or whatever - we just have to get on with it.


You're right and in fact I think the government has said more or less what you say here, haven't they? That a "Estado de Alarma" will not be contemplated until hospitals are in a position where they cannot cope.
The whole idea of the New Normal is exactly what you reference here; doing normal things with extraordinary precautions. 

One of the more worrying areas in my opinion though is children's education. Yes there are ways around schooling children with internet and tv, reduced classes etc, but one of the fundamentals of going to school is the social side of things from 3 year olds learning to share toys, wait their turn and become autonomous in every day habits like eating, dressing and organising themselves to 10 year olds learning about empathy, how to debate ideas, how to collaborate etc. Children don't just learn the three R's in school, they learn how to be part of a community, how to be human... I'm not so sure that kids are going to be able to do this in the New Normal.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> Children over the age of 14 can be left at home. Some children are capable of learning well in online situations and find it a more efficient use of time. All of my bacheriato kids did well in the exams and said they didnt mind working from home. I think parents have to step up a bit here and take some responsibility for their children. People are very quick to talk about how we need to adapt to the new norm but then seem to complain when it is applied to schools. One thing for sure is that schools will be shut on individual basis and once the pattern starts to emerge of poorer schools being more disadvantaged then you can see how a national program of how to educate fairly without prejudicing sectors of society will need to be rolled out.


!4 year olds can cope with being at home on their own, but I think a lot of 14 year olds are not very responsible RE school work even when they at school (especially in Spain with the worst or second worst school drop out rate in Europe) and prolonged periods of time working from home could spell disaster for many


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> You're right and in fact I think the government has said more or less what you say here, haven't they? That a "Estado de Alarma" will not be contemplated until hospitals are in a position where they cannot cope.
> The whole idea of the New Normal is exactly what you reference here; doing normal things with extraordinary precautions.
> 
> One of the more worrying areas in my opinion though is children's education. Yes there are ways around schooling children with internet and tv, reduced classes etc, but one of the fundamentals of going to school is the social side of things from 3 year olds learning to share toys, wait their turn and become autonomous in every day habits like eating, dressing and organising themselves to 10 year olds learning about empathy, how to debate ideas, how to collaborate etc. Children don't just learn the three R's in school, they learn how to be part of a community, how to be human... I'm not so sure that kids are going to be able to do this in the New Normal.


Somewhere there have been discussions about getting kids into school a couple of days a week at least, to facilitate lower numbers on site at any time, but with the other days either taped classes or self/online/guided study. 

Of course education is only obligatory from age 6, so we might find infant schools cutting admissions right down.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiaxica said:


> Of course education is only obligatory from age 6, so we might find infant schools cutting admissions right down.


Yep, so that's my daughter without a job...


----------



## kaipa

I think transmission from under 10s is low so focus should be on Primary Schools first especially for all those required soft skills. Over 10 and transmission increases. Teenage groups appear to transmit as adults. So everything needs to be done to reduce class sizes in secondary schools. Poorer areas have probably less resources and higher student numbers. No kind school is the same. Best to assess which students can / will benefit from online learning and those who won't. Its vital that online learning is not abandoned as this will need to be up and running if schools are forced to close. Keeping it active in some form is an essential new norm resource. Scotland seems to think that because incidents in Finland are low in schools there it shouldn't be a problem but I suspect there are a number of social/ cultural factors that have helped Findland but are not replicated in UK.


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> Children over the age of 14 can be left at home. Some children are capable of learning well in online situations and find it a more efficient use of time. All of my bacheriato kids did well in the exams and said they didnt mind working from home. I think parents have to step up a bit here and take some responsibility for their children. People are very quick to talk about how we need to adapt to the new norm but then seem to complain when it is applied to schools. One thing for sure is that schools will be shut on individual basis and once the pattern starts to emerge of poorer schools being more disadvantaged then you can see how a national program of how to educate fairly without prejudicing sectors of society will need to be rolled out.


Well, many of the 14 year olds I teach would run amok if left on there own all day, not and age where they’re responsible or have the emotional understanding to get on an apply themselves to learning without supervision, okay for the kids who have parents who are interested not so good for the rest. Working from home on a temporary basis in one thing, on a permanent basis, which is what we are talking about because there is no vaccine , is totally different.
As for parents stepping up, what arrogance is that, many many parents have to work, what are they supposed to do, great for foreigners living here telling Spanish parents to “step up” it’s not you or I putting food on the table and paying the rent.

The new norm is not a new norm it’s about dealing with the situation as it is. Children will carry the disease they will pass it on, as will you or I in a supermarket etc.

Comparing what Finland do as opposed to Spain or the U.K. is comparing apples with pears. Totally different structures and financial implications. 

There is more to school than the three Rs. This virus is going nowhere and people will die, and local lockdowns following clusters will happen but it seems to me, reading across various social media sites including this one, that some think no one should be allowed to die of covid and everything should be done to prevent that including economic suicide. Maybe my years as a nurse has taught me that death, whilst uninviting, happens to us all. As it stands hospitals are not overwhelmed, death rates are very low compared to the height of the pandemic and science is learning day by day as to what to do.

There is no easy solution, personally speaking I’m all for kids getting back to school and having some sort of normality, parents where they can returning to work and the population in general accepting that things maybe different for a while


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Megsmum said:


> Well, many of the 14 year olds I teach would run amok if left on there own all day, not and age where they’re responsible or have the emotional understanding to get on an apply themselves to learning without supervision, okay for the kids who have parents who are interested not so good for the rest. Working from home on a temporary basis in one thing, on a permanent basis, which is what we are talking about because there is no vaccine , is totally different.
> As for parents stepping up, what arrogance is that, many many parents have to work, what are they supposed to do, great for foreigners living here telling Spanish parents to “step up” it’s not you or I putting food on the table and paying the rent.
> 
> The new norm is not a new norm it’s about dealing with the situation as it is. Children will carry the disease they will pass it on, as will you or I in a supermarket etc.
> 
> Comparing what Finland do as opposed to Spain or the U.K. is comparing apples with pears. Totally different structures and financial implications.
> 
> There is more to school than the three Rs. This virus is going nowhere and people will die, and local lockdowns following clusters will happen but it seems to me, reading across various social media sites including this one, that some think no one should be allowed to die of covid and everything should be done to prevent that including economic suicide. Maybe my years as a nurse has taught me that death, whilst uninviting, happens to us all. As it stands hospitals are not overwhelmed, death rates are very low compared to the height of the pandemic and science is learning day by day as to what to do.
> 
> There is no easy solution, personally speaking I’m all for kids getting back to school and having some sort of normality, parents where they can returning to work and the population in general accepting that things maybe different for a while


Totally agree


> Working from home on a temporary basis in one thing, on a permanent basis, which is what we are talking about because there is no vaccine , is totally different.


I also think that we can't just wait around in confinement until the disease is under control with a vaccine, but...
How feasible is it really to go back to work - with precautions?
How feasible is it to take public transport which many people will need to go to work?
How feasible is it to work in a call centre/ factory/ shop and not transmit or contract the Covid 19?
How feasible is it to have a group of young children interacting, eating, playing together at school silently transmitting the disease to teachers, admin staff, school bus drivers, dinner ladies'...?
On the other hand, is it viable for people to work from home indefinitely, be schooled from home indefinitely? Can bars, nightclubs, hotels, cinemas be closed indefinitely?
Negative to all those questions, so whatever steps are taken they are going to be wrong!

The only thing we, or any government can do is muddle along with the New Normal, whatever that is as best as we can and try to live life as happily as we can.


But I do think it's a sad state of affairs


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> I think transmission from under 10s is low so focus should be on Primary Schools first especially for all those required soft skills. Over 10 and transmission increases. Teenage groups appear to transmit as adults. So everything needs to be done to reduce class sizes in secondary schools. Poorer areas have probably less resources and higher student numbers. No kind school is the same. Best to assess which students can / will benefit from online learning and those who won't. Its vital that online learning is not abandoned as this will need to be up and running if schools are forced to close. Keeping it active in some form is an essential new norm resource. Scotland seems to think that because incidents in Finland are low in schools there it shouldn't be a problem but I suspect there are a number of social/ cultural factors that have helped Findland but are not replicated in UK.


 There are so many unknowns about this disease that I think statements like "transmission from under 10s is low" are inaccurate. At first it was thought young children didn't contract the disease, but they do. Then it was thought that they didn't suffer great physical damage, but now they are finding children with severe inflammatory problems.
Some people develop antibodies, some don't. Some people develop antibodies that later weaken.
Some people run a risk of reinfection, some don't.
Why was Madrid hit so badly in the beginning and now has few outbreaks compared to other places?
Why is Aragon so badly hit atm?
We know practically nothing about this and how it behaves.


----------



## Megsmum

Can I also add, with regards to schools not opening, is also a cause for concern in itself - that constant snotty nose from nursery to Y2 is a vital resource in the building blocks of the human immune system.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Megsmum said:


> Can I also add, with regards to schools not opening, is also a cause for concern in itself - that constant snotty nose from nursery to Y2 is a vital resource in the building blocks of the human immune system.


Absolutely!


----------



## kaipa

I see that on the news today that Madrid only has 422 tracers compared with other regions which in some cases have over 5,000!. Amazing how Ayudo is doing so bad after all that criticism she levelled at Fernando Simon


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## kaipa

I watched the news here in Spain this morning and there was an item about how they were detecting higher levels of Covid19 positives in young children than they had earlier suspected. Meanwhile Sky news was reporting that Covid19 contagion in young children was very low 1%
Just shows how unclear things are. Also Galicia bans smoking in all public places as scientists believe that this also plays a part in spreading the virus. We even here had a discussion about this a while ago


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> I watched the news here in Spain this morning and there was an item about how they were detecting higher levels of Covid19 positives in young children than they had earlier suspected. Meanwhile Sky news was reporting that Covid19 contagion in young children was very low 1%
> Just shows how unclear things are. Also Galicia bans smoking in all public places as scientists believe that this also plays a part in spreading the virus. We even here had a discussion about this a while ago


I wonder if perhaps in Spain at least, the smoking thing is partly due to people walking around 'smoking' as a way to avoid wearing a mask? 

Though blowing smoke out, if you have the virus surely must spread it?


----------



## baldilocks

xabiaxica said:


> I wonder if perhaps in Spain at least, the smoking thing is partly due to people walking around 'smoking' as a way to avoid wearing a mask?
> 
> Though blowing smoke out, if you have the virus surely must spread it?


But only the Smoked (ahumado) version of it.


----------



## baldilocks

kaipa said:


> Also Galicia bans smoking in all public places as scientists believe that this also plays a part in spreading the virus. We even here had a discussion about this a while ago


Andalucía, and both Castillas are also considering it.


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## kaipa

I think that one of the things they said that increased contagion seemed to be more about touching more things when smoking. Not sure. One thing is that young folk in Spain smoke alot of joints, especially in botellons, and this always involves sharing so you can see the risks there. The same is true with sharing bottles ( very common in botellons, where spirits are passed around or sprayed out over people!!


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## kaipa

I see now it's the law in the Canary islands and looks like it will be introduced everywhere soon. Amazing how angry some people are!!


----------



## Overandout

xabiaxica said:


> I wonder if perhaps in Spain at least, the smoking thing is partly due to people walking around 'smoking' as a way to avoid wearing a mask?
> 
> Though blowing smoke out, if you have the virus surely must spread it?


I'm on holiday in Andalucia, and it doesn't seem that people need the excuse of smoking to not wear masks properly, or even at all.

On the "paseo marítimo" in the evening there are plenty of people who seem to think that they are on holiday from covid too. Some are smoking, yes, but others are eating "pipas", others wearing the masks over their chins while chatting, and some simply with no mask, not even on their elbow! And not a policeman in sight, abosuletly no control.

The smoking law is, in my opinion, just anther way of imposing an additional restriction and control instead of enforcing the ones which already exist. The government probably knows that control would have more effect than more restrictions, but the resources just aren't there.


----------



## Love Karma

Overandout said:


> I'm on holiday in Andalucia, and it doesn't seem that people need the excuse of smoking to not wear masks properly, or even at all.
> 
> On the "paseo marítimo" in the evening there are plenty of people who seem to think that they are on holiday from covid too. Some are smoking, yes, but others are eating "pipas", others wearing the masks over their chins while chatting, and some simply with no mask, not even on their elbow! And not a policeman in sight, abosuletly no control.
> 
> The smoking law is, in my opinion, just anther way of imposing an additional restriction and control instead of enforcing the ones which already exist. The government probably knows that control would have more effect than more restrictions, but the resources just aren't there.


Maybe its like that where you are but certainly not my experience on my evening strolls in Torre del Mar and Nerja, with everyone adhering to the protocols. In fact this pic is from last night.


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## Pesky Wesky

This the current situation in Spain. This thread needs to be either closed or renamed


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> This the current situation in Spain. This thread needs to be either closed or renamed


Funny you should say that  



I think this HAS to happen


https://www.abc.es/sociedad/abci-sa...-y-no-fumar-publica-202008141248_noticia.html


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## xabiaxica

https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-08-14/ultimas-noticias-del-coronavirus-en-espana-y-en-el-mundo-en-directo.html

These are minimum rules. Individual comunidades can issue stricter ones. I've listed those that affect the majority of people. 

No botellones.

Discos & dance clubs closed

1.5m between tables in bars & restaurants & groups no larger than 10. 

1.5m between people sitting at a bar.

Bars & restaurants to close by 1am & no new customers after midnight


No smoking within 2 metres of another person in the street or anywhere public. 

No more than 10 people at private gatherings (recommended)

Socialise only with those you live with (recommended)


https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-08...e-el-avance-de-la-pandemia.html?rel=listapoyo


Here's a link to a pdf of the agreement https://www.abc.es/gestordocumental/uploads/sociedad/cisns.pdf


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## Beach buddy

Overandout said:


> I'm on holiday in Andalucia, and it doesn't seem that people need the excuse of smoking to not wear masks properly, or even at all.
> 
> On the "paseo marítimo" in the evening there are plenty of people who seem to think that they are on holiday from covid too. Some are smoking, yes, but others are eating "pipas", others wearing the masks over their chins while chatting, and some simply with no mask, not even on their elbow! And not a policeman in sight, abosuletly no control.
> 
> The smoking law is, in my opinion, just anther way of imposing an additional restriction and control instead of enforcing the ones which already exist. The government probably knows that control would have more effect than more restrictions, but the resources just aren't there.


Not to mention people on their mobile phones. Will probably lead to no smoking in the street. How can you be two meters away when there is someone behind you inhaling your cigarette smoke?


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## Lynn R

Things are not looking too good

https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-08...virus-en-espana-y-en-el-mundo-en-directo.html


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## kaipa

Lynn R said:


> Things are not looking too good
> 
> https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-08...virus-en-espana-y-en-el-mundo-en-directo.html



It is a bit worrying. I found the demonstration more worrying though. People starting to believe all kinds of nonsense now, that is what is scary!


----------



## Williams2

Lynn R said:


> Things are not looking too good
> 
> https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-08...virus-en-espana-y-en-el-mundo-en-directo.html


Just think if Catalonia had won it's Independence back in October 2017 the rate
of Covid infections in Spain ( excluding Catalonia ) would be right down and
who knows British Tourists to Spain ( excluding Catalonia ) wouldn't have to
go into a 14 day quarantine when they return to the UK from their Spanish holiday.

No doubt one of the great 'what ifs' of modern times.


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## Megsmum

The figures we have to watch is hospital admissions and death rates... those are what really matter in the overall context of the virus. It is irrelevant if 99% of the population test positive, it’s relevant if say 10% or a lot less of that 90% end up in hospital.


----------



## Lynn R

Megsmum said:


> The figures we have to watch is hospital admissions and death rates... those are what really matter in the overall context of the virus. It is irrelevant if 99% of the population test positive, it’s relevant if say 10% or a lot less of that 90% end up in hospital.


And the number of people admitted to hospital with Covid19 is starting to rise again (although at the moment nothing like as high as it was a few months ago), which according to Fernando Simón has caused problems in some regions at a time when staff are taking holidays as well as trying to reinstate some of the services previously put on hold due to the pandemic.

19:21 HASTA 4.124 PERSONAS ESTÁN INGRESADAS EN HOSPITALES POR COVID-19, 529 MÁS QUE EL JUEVES, SEGÚN SIMÓN
El director del Centro de Coordinación de Alertas y Emergencias Sanitarias (CCAES), Fernando Simón, ha informado de que 4.124 personas están ingresadas actualmente en los hospitales españoles con COVID-19, 3.650 de ellos en camas convencionales y 474 en Unidad de Cuidados Intensivos (UCI).

Esto supone 529 ingresos hospitalarios más que el jueves, según las cifras aportadas por Simón en rueda de prensa. Hace cuatro días, estaban ocupadas 3.212 camas y 383 de UCI, lo que en esos momentos suponía un índice del 3 por ciento del total de camas. Estos datos suponen que hay 438 camas y 91 de UCI ocupadas más que el jueves. En las últimas 24 horas, además, se han producido 569 ingresos, frente a 150 altas hospitalarias.

Según Simón, "no hay una presión excesiva pero algunos hospitales están empezando a observar situaciones que no les están poniendo en riesgo de colapso para nada pero sí generan estrés en los médicos" por el aumento de casos, el periodo de vacaciones, que hace que haya menos personal y porque se está intentando recuperar la actividad que se detuvo durante el coronavirus. La Comunidad de Madrid y antes Cataluña, Aragón y País Vasco, han sufrido esta situación, según Simón, que ha reconocido que "las cosas no van como nos gustaría que fueran".


----------



## Megsmum

Lynn R said:


> And the number of people admitted to hospital with Covid19 is starting to rise again (although at the moment nothing like as high as it was a few months ago), which according to Fernando Simón has caused problems in some regions at a time when staff are taking holidays as well as trying to reinstate some of the services previously put on hold due to the pandemic.
> 
> 19:21 HASTA 4.124 PERSONAS ESTÁN INGRESADAS EN HOSPITALES POR COVID-19, 529 MÁS QUE EL JUEVES, SEGÚN SIMÓN
> El director del Centro de Coordinación de Alertas y Emergencias Sanitarias (CCAES), Fernando Simón, ha informado de que 4.124 personas están ingresadas actualmente en los hospitales españoles con COVID-19, 3.650 de ellos en camas convencionales y 474 en Unidad de Cuidados Intensivos (UCI).
> 
> Esto supone 529 ingresos hospitalarios más que el jueves, según las cifras aportadas por Simón en rueda de prensa. Hace cuatro días, estaban ocupadas 3.212 camas y 383 de UCI, lo que en esos momentos suponía un índice del 3 por ciento del total de camas. Estos datos suponen que hay 438 camas y 91 de UCI ocupadas más que el jueves. En las últimas 24 horas, además, se han producido 569 ingresos, frente a 150 altas hospitalarias.
> 
> Según Simón, "no hay una presión excesiva pero algunos hospitales están empezando a observar situaciones que no les están poniendo en riesgo de colapso para nada pero sí generan estrés en los médicos" por el aumento de casos, el periodo de vacaciones, que hace que haya menos personal y porque se está intentando recuperar la actividad que se detuvo durante el coronavirus. La Comunidad de Madrid y antes Cataluña, Aragón y País Vasco, han sufrido esta situación, según Simón, que ha reconocido que "las cosas no van como nos gustaría que fueran".


I think this is going to be the way as lockdowns ease and until a vaccine is prove to work. We have to hope that the rates remain manageable


----------



## Isobella

Megsmum said:


> I’ve just returned from hospital, again, I have a blood clot in my neck, I knew something was wrong, but had I been fearful of covid I may well have stayed at home and then........ I was seen and diagnosed within 2 hours, I’m at home in subcutaneous injections and return Friday to see a specialist, prompt treatment due to lack of patients in clinics or .........
> 
> 
> Stay safe, take care of you and yours


Similar to OH in March, the main artery in his neck was blocked. Can’t remember the name of the procedure but diagnosis was immediate, very similar to a baby scan. He had an operation two days later during Covid although the moved him from Chichester to Brighton. When he went for check up in April the whole outpatients was empty except one other person, even the Oncology dept. Nurses and reception staff were stood around gossiping. He is ok. now:fingerscrossed: playing golf etc. And gardening. But 
takes 3 different pills each day. Health centre seems to be getting back to normal, at least the door is unlocked now! But still phone triage.


----------



## Megsmum

Isobella said:


> Similar to OH in March, the main artery in his neck was blocked. Can’t remember the name of the procedure but diagnosis was immediate, very similar to a baby scan. He had an operation two days later during Covid although the moved him from Chichester to Brighton. When he went for check up in April the whole outpatients was empty except one other person, even the Oncology dept. Nurses and reception staff were stood around gossiping. He is ok. now:fingerscrossed: playing golf etc. And gardening. But
> takes 3 different pills each day. Health centre seems to be getting back to normal, at least the door is unlocked now! But still phone triage.


I have a colleague who works in critical care... never been so quiet and the Nurses at GP surgery I registered at, said she’s bored, never cleaned or moved the treatment room around so much. It’s a difficult situation


----------



## Overandout

A judge in the administrative court of Madrid has today ruled that the prohibition on smoking outside when impossible to keep a safe distance from others is unenforceable.

It seems that Sanidad at central level never published the decree at national level in the BoE, instead leaving it to the CAs to decree individually the "agreed measures". But according to the judge, the CAs do not have this power to restrict fundamental rights (smoking right next to someone is apparently a fundamental right).

More political-legal wranglings at our expense... not that there was any policing of the measure anyway.


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## 95995

There is no science thata demonstrates that smoking spreads the virus, though the smoker places himself/herself at risk because smoking involves touching your face (around the area of your mouth of course). I believe Spain is the only country that took/tried to take shis approach to smoking in public areas - though of course many countries no longer allow smoking close to others, which is perhaps the best way forward anyway.


----------



## Overandout

Yes, it was / is a strange measure anyway.

I get the feeling that the thinking is that if you can smell someone else's smoke, you must be breathing in the air expelled from their lungs, but why the presence of the tobacco smoke in the breath made it worse than anyone else's contaminated breath is a logical jump too far as far as I'm concerned.

Covid is being used as an excuse by many, for many things, some good, some bad, but we shouldn't dress things up under the guise of Covid safety.

If they want to ban smoking in the street / on terrazas, then they should propose the draft law as with any other legislation. It's not an easy question on a civil rights level, but I'm tending towards the rights of non-smokers to breath smoke free air. (But than should non-drivers have the right to breath air completely free of vehicle gases, and people without central heating shouldn't have to breath contamination from heating boilers?)


----------



## mrypg9

Overandout said:


> Yes, it was / is a strange measure anyway.
> 
> I get the feeling that the thinking is that if you can smell someone else's smoke, you must be breathing in the air expelled from their lungs, but why the presence of the tobacco smoke in the breath made it worse than anyone else's contaminated breath is a logical jump too far as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> Covid is being used as an excuse by many, for many things, some good, some bad, but we shouldn't dress things up under the guise of Covid safety.
> 
> If they want to ban smoking in the street / on terrazas, then they should propose the draft law as with any other legislation. It's not an easy question on a civil rights level, but I'm tending towards the rights of non-smokers to breath smoke free air. (But than should non-drivers have the right to breath air completely free of vehicle gases, and people without central heating shouldn't have to breath contamination from heating boilers?)


Not sure ...but isn't smoking in the street forbidden in Scotland?


----------



## Overandout

mrypg9 said:


> Not sure ...but isn't smoking in the street forbidden in Scotland?


Really? I have no idea. I've never even been to Scotland!


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> Not sure ...but isn't smoking in the street forbidden in Scotland?


And in some US states I think. But not Covid-related.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> Yes, it was / is a strange measure anyway.
> 
> I get the feeling that the thinking is that if you can smell someone else's smoke, you must be breathing in the air expelled from their lungs, but why the presence of the tobacco smoke in the breath made it worse than anyone else's contaminated breath is a logical jump too far as far as I'm concerned.


Smokers actively blow smoke out through their mouth and nose using more force than when someone is just breathing. The force that they use means that the air which has been in their lungs, mouth, nostrils is more likely to reach another person that is just in the street breathing. That air maybe contaminated, well it is anyway with smoke.
It hasn't been proved that there is more risk of catching the disease from smokers than non smokers. It hasn't been proved that there isn't any risk either. Smoking is not an essential activity, walking and breathing outside is. Until proved it's not a risk I'm really happy to have it banned, and for ever if it comes to that.
PW - ex smoker, lives with smoker


----------



## kaipa

Looks as if Schools are going to be the next battle ground for Covid19 in the next few weeks. Each region suggesting different approaches seems confusing especially when alot seems to be about political positioning. Madrid faces strikes by teachers. Murcia with 4 day week. Galicia semi-presencial with online. Valencia bubbles and more teachers. What a mess. Lets hope the meeting next week leads to more consensus.


----------



## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> Smokers actively blow smoke out through their mouth and nose using more force than when someone is just breathing. The force that they use means that the air which has been in their lungs, mouth, nostrils is more likely to reach another person that is just in the street breathing. That air maybe contaminated, well it is anyway with smoke.
> It hasn't been proved that there is more risk of catching the disease from smokers than non smokers. It hasn't been proved that there isn't any risk either. Smoking is not an essential activity, walking and breathing outside is. Until proved it's not a risk I'm really happy to have it banned, and for ever if it comes to that.
> PW - ex smoker, lives with smoker


Smokers in open-air bars now have to move two metres away from the table where they are sitting with their friends. We watched a group of about ten friends doing this the other night. Then they come back and sit almost on top of each other chatting and laughing for hours without masks... 

I don't think the rule is going to make much difference to infection rates, but it certainly makes it more pleasant for us non-smokers.


----------



## mrypg9

kaipa said:


> Looks as if Schools are going to be the next battle ground for Covid19 in the next few weeks. Each region suggesting different approaches seems confusing especially when alot seems to be about political positioning. Madrid faces strikes by teachers. Murcia with 4 day week. Galicia semi-presencial with online. Valencia bubbles and more teachers. What a mess. Lets hope the meeting next week leads to more consensus.


In the school I worked at in the UK most of the staff were at work teaching children of parents working in essential services, hospitals, care homes, food shops and so on.

I can't see why plans can't be devised to get children back, safely, in the classroom. I don't know about Spain but it does seem that in the UK there is political posturing from the usual wing of one of the teaching unions. But then there always has been.

In 1939/40 hundreds of thousands of children were evacuated from cities to safer, rural areas of the UK. If that could be done in a computerless age of snail mail and landline telephones it can't be beyond human ingenuity to get students back in schools where they live in 2020.
Given also, of course, good will and putting educational interests first.


----------



## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> Smokers in open-air bars now have to move two metres away from the table where they are sitting with their friends. We watched a group of about ten friends doing this the other night. Then they come back and sit almost on top of each other chatting and laughing for hours without masks...
> 
> I don't think the rule is going to make much difference to infection rates, but it certainly makes it more pleasant for us non-smokers.


Thing is, they're supposed to keep their masks on when sitting chatting, only removing them to eat or drink. 

Does having a drink in front of you count as drinking? 

Of course putting it on & off constantly isn't great either!


----------



## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> In the school I worked at in the UK most of the staff were at work teaching children of parents working in essential services, hospitals, care homes, food shops and so on.
> 
> I can't see why plans can't be devised to get children back, safely, in the classroom. I don't know about Spain but it does seem that in the UK there is political posturing from the usual wing of one of the teaching unions. But then there always has been.
> 
> In 1939/40 hundreds of thousands of children were evacuated from cities to safer, rural areas of the UK. If that could be done in a computerless age of snail mail and landline telephones it can't be beyond human ingenuity to get students back in schools where they live in 2020.
> Given also, of course, good will and putting educational interests first.


There's a movement here too, by teachers concerned about how to actually manage the guidelines they've been given

The guidelines include have impossible distancing of children in classrooms given the size of classrooms & numbers of children - & frequent (hourly?) hand washing while not allowing too many children in the bathrooms at the same time - again impossible given the ratio of children to bathrooms. 

But not masks...

Since children over the age of 6 are required to wear masks in public, surely mask wearing at school & frequent hand sanitising are possible?


----------



## mrypg9

xabiaxica said:


> There's a movement here too, by teachers concerned about how to actually manage the guidelines they've been given
> 
> The guidelines include have impossible distancing of children in classrooms given the size of classrooms & numbers of children - & frequent (hourly?) hand washing while not allowing too many children in the bathrooms at the same time - again impossible given the ratio of children to bathrooms.
> 
> But not masks...
> 
> Since children over the age of 6 are required to wear masks in public, surely mask wearing at school & frequent hand sanitising are possible?


OK, I'm old, my memory isn't what it used to be.....but didn't we have shift schooling in the UK when during the miners' strike the three day week and scheduled power cuts were applied? Can't that be done here?

Where's Baldy when you need him??? He'll remember. You young things were probably not alive then, never mind working


----------



## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> OK, I'm old, my memory isn't what it used to be.....but didn't we have shift schooling in the UK when during the miners' strike the three day week and scheduled power cuts were applied? Can't that be done here?
> 
> Where's Baldy when you need him??? He'll remember. You young things were probably not alive then, never mind working


I don't remember doing shift schooling - I was at school then. Just because I don't remember it doesn't mean it didn't happen - so if it did, it didn't exactly have a profound effect on me! 

To me it would seem to be the best option for now, at least. All children would get some face to face schooling at least. 


A nightmare for working parents though - at least those not able to work from home.


----------



## DonMarco

Do we know whether any Covid related paperwork is required when entering Spain via France in a car?


----------



## Isobella

I am sceptical about the smoking issue. At one time scientists were say smokers seemed to have some protection from Covid. It has taken months to realise that singing is not a risk. Choirs can now start up again.


----------



## mrypg9

Isobella said:


> I. It has taken months to realise that singing is not a risk. .


You obviously haven't heard me singing Brunhilde's awakening from Wagner's 'Siegfried'.


----------



## xabiaxica

DonMarco said:


> Do we know whether any Covid related paperwork is required when entering Spain via France in a car?


Yes, you're expected to do that online form if entering Spain from anywhere.


----------



## Alcalaina

xabiaxica said:


> Thing is, they're supposed to keep their masks on when sitting chatting, only removing them to eat or drink.
> 
> Does having a drink in front of you count as drinking?
> 
> Of course putting it on & off constantly isn't great either!


If you have a drink in front of you and are seated, you don't have to wear a mask. That's how it's interpreted in Andalucia anyway.


----------



## 95995

mrypg9 said:


> OK, I'm old, my memory isn't what it used to be.....but didn't we have shift schooling in the UK when during the miners' strike the three day week and scheduled power cuts were applied? Can't that be done here?
> 
> Where's Baldy when you need him??? He'll remember. You young things were probably not alive then, never mind working


I think what they are trying to do is to get all children back to school on a full-time basis. Children have already missed far too much schooling, especially those who don't have good computer access, or don't know how to use it, or whose parents are not capable of assisting them. At the very least, a full-time schooling approach is thinking of the future of these children and the country as a whole. OTOH I am against children from the age of six having to wear masks (in France it is from the age of 11, though they will be required to wear them at school, and the WHO recommendation is for children aged 12 and over). Whilst young children are physically capable of wearing masks, wearing them correctly etc. is a totally different matter.

The big issues in France and Spain, though, remain the fact that in most schools it is not possible to maintain even 1 metre distance betwwen children even in the classroom, and the lack of toilets, even unsuitable toilets  and handwashing facilities. Well, of course they could use hand sanitiser, but I suspect that is not the best option for young children whose skin tends to be more sensitive.

So, whilst I think getting *all *children back to school full-time is essential, making that possible with a reasonable degree of safety from the virus (for kids who may bring it home or even fall ill, for families and for teachers) is a major conundrum.


----------



## DonMarco

xabiaxica said:


> Yes, you're expected to do that online form if entering Spain from anywhere.


Are you sure because I can only find information on the Spain Travel Health portal about the form if you're arriving by plane.


----------



## kaipa

EverHopeful said:


> mrypg9 said:
> 
> 
> 
> OK, I'm old, my memory isn't what it used to be.....but didn't we have shift schooling in the UK when during the miners' strike the three day week and scheduled power cuts were applied? Can't that be done here?
> 
> Where's Baldy when you need him??? He'll remember. You young things were probably not alive then, never mind working
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think what they are trying to do is to get all children back to school on a full-time basis. Children have already missed far too much schooling, especially those who don't have good computer access, or don't know how to use it, or whose parents are not capable of assisting them. At the very least, a full-time schooling approach is thinking of the future of these children and the country as a whole. OTOH I am against children from the age of six having to wear masks (in France it is from the age of 11, though they will be required to wear them at school, and the WHO recommendation is for children aged 12 and over). Whilst young children are physically capable of wearing masks, wearing them correctly etc. is a totally different matter.
> 
> The big issues in France and Spain, though, remain the fact that in most schools it is not possible to maintain even 1 metre distance betwwen children even in the classroom, and the lack of toilets, even unsuitable toilets
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and handwashing facilities. Well, of course they could use hand sanitiser, but I suspect that is not the best option for young children whose skin tends to be more sensitive.
> 
> So, whilst I think getting *all *children back to school full-time is essential, making that possible with a reasonable degree of safety from the virus (for kids who may bring it home or even fall ill, for families and for teachers) is a major conundrum.
Click to expand...

41 schools in Berlin now with infections. This does not bode well for Spain.Many young school children in Spain are picked up or go back to grandparents after school as parents work. This is probably one of the worst situations for a country to be in as it means the younger possibly super- contagious members of society are houng to mix with the possibility most vulnerable


----------



## 95995

kaipa said:


> 41 schools in Berlin now with infections. This does not bode well for Spain*.Many young school children in Spain are picked up or go back to grandparents after school as parents work.* This is probably one of the worst situations for a country to be in as it means the younger possibly super- contagious members of society are houng to mix with the possibility most vulnerable


We have the same situation in France.


----------



## kaipa

EverHopeful said:


> kaipa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 41 schools in Berlin now with infections. This does not bode well for Spain*.Many young school children in Spain are picked up or go back to grandparents after school as parents work.* This is probably one of the worst situations for a country to be in as it means the younger possibly super- contagious members of society are houng to mix with the possibility most vulnerable
> 
> 
> 
> We have the same situation in France.
Click to expand...


Surely this must be a big concern for these countries. The UK and Scandanavians usually have work days matching school days so parents can drop kids at school and often pick up when work ends. In Spain many adults return to work at 5.00 and work through til 8.00. Nearly all the kids in my school are brought and picked up by grandparents. I sure hope Spain is thinking this through as it seems to me to be a big weakness in their plans to control the virus after the summer ends.


----------



## mrypg9

EverHopeful said:


> I think what they are trying to do is to get all children back to school on a full-time basis. Children have already missed far too much schooling, especially those who don't have good computer access, or don't know how to use it, or whose parents are not capable of assisting them. At the very least, a full-time schooling approach is thinking of the future of these children and the country as a whole. OTOH I am against children from the age of six having to wear masks (in France it is from the age of 11, though they will be required to wear them at school, and the WHO recommendation is for children aged 12 and over). Whilst young children are physically capable of wearing masks, wearing them correctly etc. is a totally different matter.
> 
> The big issues in France and Spain, though, remain the fact that in most schools it is not possible to maintain even 1 metre distance betwwen children even in the classroom, and the lack of toilets, even unsuitable toilets  and handwashing facilities. Well, of course they could use hand sanitiser, but I suspect that is not the best option for young children whose skin tends to be more sensitive.
> 
> So, whilst I think getting *all *children back to school full-time is essential, making that possible with a reasonable degree of safety from the virus (for kids who may bring it home or even fall ill, for families and for teachers) is a major conundrum.


Maybe as I suggested earlier some kind of shift system with care facilities for those whose parents have to work? It's hard to believe that governments that can launch wars in faraway countries can't sit around a table with local politicians, teaching unions and anyone with an interest to get as many children as possible in some kind of education whilst taking all possible precautions.


----------



## Megsmum

DonMarco said:


> Are you sure because I can only find information on the Spain Travel Health portal about the form if you're arriving by plane.


It’s includes ferry crossings, one would rightly or wrongly presume border crossings would be the same. Try contacting the French side they will know what is required to cross the border.




Schools MUST return and as cavalier as it sounds, yes there will be spikes , yes children will spread it but this is where we are. We cannot not carry on with this can’t do anything because of covid attitude rather than what can we do, despite covid. The WHO today said that they “hope” the pandemic will last less than TWO years, are we to stop all those children from attending schools for nearly two years because some people may or may not catch this virus and of those the majority will recover. Education is not simply maths and sciences etc it’s about social interactions it’s about picking up snotty noses and building an immune system. The young are already condemned to pay for this virus during there working lives alongside all the other most other recent ills, let’s not condemn them to a lack of education as well because we fear spikes etc. It’s perfectly acceptable to have local closures and lockdowns.
Nothing is insurmountable, and despite only living in Spain for the past 7 years, I do not see the culture of grandparents etc collecting children from school ending anytime soon, virus or no virus.


----------



## xabiaxica

DonMarco said:


> Are you sure because I can only find information on the Spain Travel Health portal about the form if you're arriving by plane.


Yes, as far as I'm aware. 

It does seem to contradict itself - on one part it says all travellers, & another focusses on planes.


----------



## Roy C

I love the way the Spanish doctor handles this and I think it offers a message of hope from a true professional without press pressure.


----------



## Love Karma

Megsmum said:


> It’s includes ferry crossings, one would rightly or wrongly presume border crossings would be the same. Try contacting the French side they will know what is required to cross the border.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Schools MUST return and as cavalier as it sounds, yes there will be spikes , yes children will spread it but this is where we are. We cannot not carry on with this can’t do anything because of covid attitude rather than what can we do, despite covid. The WHO today said that they “hope” the pandemic will last less than TWO years are we to stop. Generations of kids from attending schools for two years because some people may or may not catch this virus and of those the majority will recover.
> Nothing is insurmountable, and despite only living in Spain for the past 7 years, I do not see the culture of grandparents etc collecting children from school ending anytime soon, virus or no virus.


Agree and maybe as the Death rates are way down even though Covid positive rates are up maybe a big proportion of the vulnerable have died in the early days of March, April and early May. As an example March 27th Confirmed Cases 8578 --- Deaths 877 --- and recently August 16th Confirmed Cases 7051------Deaths just 7.


----------



## kaipa

The problem with schools is that whilst its important to get them open it will be impossible to castigateor compell parents to send their children to schools if cases of infections occur locally. That's human nature. No police officer is going to come round and take a child away from worried parents and no politician can be seen to have experimented a social plan on children. One solution, being considered, is a form of voluntary attendance with online/ home schooling being an option for those who feel safer with that. Older students who are capable of self learning might then have this option . This would at least reduce school numbers allowing the measures that need to be observed easier to maintain. I think online learning needs to be pursued rigoursly now in case of lockdowns. Teachers, students and parents need to be able to fully informed and trained in it as it is the only safe method available.


----------



## Megsmum

Roy C said:


> I love the way the Spanish doctor handles this and I think it offers a message of hope from a true professional without press pressure.
> https://youtu.be/SwlkumcRf6w


The truth of this interview is in the comments of the male reporter

We have lost control of this interview 

What he means is. This no longer supports our narrative.


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> The problem with schools is that whilst its important to get them open it will be impossible to castigateor compell parents to send their children to schools if cases of infections occur locally. That's human nature. No police officer is going to come round and take a child away from worried parents and no politician can be seen to have experimented a social plan on children. One solution, being considered, is a form of voluntary attendance with online/ home schooling being an option for those who feel safer with that. Older students who are capable of self learning might then have this option . This would at least reduce school numbers allowing the measures that need to be observed easier to maintain. I think online learning needs to be pursued rigoursly now in case of lockdowns. Teachers, students and parents need to be able to fully informed and trained in it as it is the only safe method available.


Then do not compel them ,, but I’m pretty sure job security v staying at home with kids will focus minds, if parents genuinely feel it’s unsafe then they should be allowed to keep their children home, but most I have slept to want kids to return 

At what stage, may I ask, at what level of infections and deaths do we allow schools freely again? No infectIon rates, no deaths? Do we wait for the elusive vaccine that may or may not be ready this or next year. I’m not for one moment belittling the situation we and the world is in, but I know many people do not like the expression but at some stage we live with the new norm.

Online learning will only be effective for a very small minority of children and teenagers. If their parents are at work, who supervises them.. probable grandpa’s again, how to teach a class online cannot be taught in a few weeks. 

There is no safe method, going to school has risks, going to the plaza, which all the kids are doing, has a risk, staying home alone , in my opinion has far greater risks to their health and in particular their mental wellbeing, we, IE Spain, locked these kids up in their houses for months, allowed them freedom and now we say, because cases are rising, which was inevitable, lock them up up again at home. 

It’s all arse about face if you ask me.... nice English expression there.... the horse has bolted.


----------



## DonMarco

xabiaxica said:


> Yes, as far as I'm aware.
> 
> It does seem to contradict itself - on one part it says all travellers, & another focusses on planes.


This off the Spain.Info

"All travellers arriving in Spain by air or sea will go through a health check. This check may include having their temperature taken, checking their documents, and a visual examination of the passenger’s state of health. In all cases, you must show your health control form (FCS). "

Where could I look for info. on people crossing the border by car?


----------



## Megsmum

DonMarco said:


> This off the Spain.Info
> 
> "All travellers arriving in Spain by air or sea will go through a health check. This check may include having their temperature taken, checking their documents, and a visual examination of the passenger’s state of health. In all cases, you must show your health control form (FCS). "
> 
> Where could I look for info. on people crossing the border by car?


You can simply download the form and the app and fill it in? 

Maybe there is a health check when you enter France.. which carries onto the French Spanish border. Ask on the French forum they may well have the answer


----------



## jimenato

Megsmum said:


> The truth of this interview is in the comments of the male reporter
> 
> We have lost control of this interview
> 
> What he means is. This no longer supports our narrative.


I'm confused. 

Was that doctor saying that the media in Spain were not talking about a pandemic, overflowing hospitals and so on in the spring?

If so is that true?

Because they most certainly were in the UK.


----------



## xabiaxica

DonMarco said:


> This off the Spain.Info
> 
> "All travellers arriving in Spain by air or sea will go through a health check. This check may include having their temperature taken, checking their documents, and a visual examination of the passenger’s state of health. In all cases, you must show your health control form (FCS). "
> 
> Where could I look for info. on people crossing the border by car?


No idea. However why would those arriving by car be exempt? 

While you might not be checked crossing the border, the whole point is so that you can be traced if need be. 

Why not just fill it in & be done with it?


----------



## Megsmum

jimenato said:


> I'm confused.
> 
> Was that doctor saying that the media in Spain were not talking about a pandemic, overflowing hospitals and so on in the spring?
> 
> If so is that true?
> 
> Because they most certainly were in the UK.


I think he was suggesting that hospitals were overwhelmed before the spring and no one was interested. Maybe I misunderstood, I’ll rerun and get back to you!


----------



## Roy C

I'm flying over Tuesday week, I've downloaded the SPTH app, I'm guessing all I have to do is fill out the form on that and show the QE code on my arrival in Spain?


----------



## Megsmum

Roy C said:


> I'm flying over Tuesday week, I've downloaded the SPTH app, I'm guessing all I have to do is fill out the form on that and show the QE code on my arrival in Spain?


Yes, it’s very straightforward, I did it two weeks ago


----------



## Lynn R

Roy C said:


> I'm flying over Tuesday week, I've downloaded the SPTH app, I'm guessing all I have to do is fill out the form on that and show the QE code on my arrival in Spain?


Yes. We arrived back into Málaga last Saturday evening from a trip to The Netherlands. There were staff in hi-viz jackets directing passengers into different lanes, they had those temperature checking gizmos mounted on tripods on each lane which flashed as you passed them, then you hold your QR code against a screen and a person seated next to it checks it on a laptop - and they welcome each person to Spain by their first name. It was all very quick and didn't cause any delay at all.


----------



## Megsmum

jimenato said:


> I'm confused.
> 
> Was that doctor saying that the media in Spain were not talking about a pandemic, overflowing hospitals and so on in the spring?
> 
> If so is that true?
> 
> Because they most certainly were in the UK.


Okay I watched it again. I think he is referring to general medical issues. Everyone spoke about the pandemic but no one was worried about the cancer, heart attacks etc. 

ILa be interested in other people’s opinions especially what he said I spanish as I do not trust the subtitles. Off to google said Dr now!

Edited 

He is suggesting that the media did not cover the saturation issues, which clearly is untrue, and a little research shows that those for and against his comments are mixed, as is always the case. I think though, fundamentally, he is trying to dampen down the fear of covid versus the reality of the numbers today, the media, as they do in the U.K., say covid cases tripled IE went for. 0 to 3! Maybe he was clumsy, I do not know enough about him or his agenda. I do however believe that media just love more death and destruction to get their teeth into it again I do not know the political leanings of this broadcaster


----------



## DonMarco

xabiaxica said:


> No idea. However why would those arriving by car be exempt?
> 
> While you might not be checked crossing the border, the whole point is so that you can be traced if need be.
> 
> Why not just fill it in & be done with it?


Wish I could but as I don't have a flight number I can't complete the form.


----------



## Megsmum

DonMarco said:


> Wish I could but as I don't have a flight number I can't complete the form.


Print it off and put in ferry crossing details or check, as I said, with the french authorities, as to what the procedure is crossing the spanish border. I’m sure there is a form you fill in for France as well. If you go to the web site for the Spanish entry form there is an email address contact them or this is what I received from the French when I considered driving back

https://www.interieur.gouv.fr/Actualites/L-actu-du-Ministere/Attestation-de-deplacement-et-de-voyage


----------



## xabiaxica

jimenato said:


> I'm confused.
> 
> Was that doctor saying that the media in Spain were not talking about a pandemic, overflowing hospitals and so on in the spring?
> 
> If so is that true?
> 
> Because they most certainly were in the UK.





Megsmum said:


> Okay I watched it again. I think he is referring to general medical issues. Everyone spoke about the pandemic but no one was worried about the cancer, heart attacks etc.
> 
> ILa be interested in other people’s opinions especially what he said I spanish as I do not trust the subtitles. Off to google said Dr now!
> 
> Edited
> 
> He is suggesting that the media did not cover the saturation issues, which clearly is untrue, and a little research shows that those for and against his comments are mixed, as is always the case. I think though, fundamentally, he is trying to dampen down the fear of covid versus the reality of the numbers today, the media, as they do in the U.K., say covid cases tripled IE went for. 0 to 3! Maybe he was clumsy, I do not know enough about him or his agenda. I do however believe that media just love more death and destruction to get their teeth into it again I do not know the political leanings of this broadcaster



Yes, that's what he was saying - that the media wasn't interested in covid19 in March & April etc., which is clearly untrue. 

He's apparently an expert in digestive issues... and a VOX supporter if that says anything.

What he said in the interview has been attcked as fake news / un bulo, by many

Oh - & that book - he wrote it...


----------



## Roy C

Thanks Lynn and Megsmum for the info. I go through one of those temp checks quite often, usually about 36.4 so hopefully that won't be a problem, not sure what the limit is.


----------



## Roy C

xabiaxica said:


> Yes, that's what he was saying - that the media wasn't interested in covid19 in March & April etc., which is clearly untrue.
> 
> He's apparently an expert in digestive issues... and a VOX supporter if that says anything.
> 
> What he said in the interview has been attcked as fake news / un bulo, by many
> 
> Oh - & that book - he wrote it...


Makes you wonder which version is actually the fake news, is he really a Vox supporter, I would hate to think he was, if it turns out to be true (and it may not be) then I would look on it with a completely different view.


----------



## 95995

Megsmum said:


> Okay I watched it again. I think he is referring to general medical issues. Everyone spoke about the pandemic but no one was worried about the cancer, heart attacks etc.
> 
> ILa be interested in other people’s opinions especially what he said I spanish as I do not trust the subtitles. Off to google said Dr now!
> 
> Edited
> 
> He is suggesting that the media did not cover the saturation issues, which clearly is untrue, and a little research shows that those for and against his comments are mixed, as is always the case. I think though, fundamentally, he is trying to dampen down the fear of covid versus the reality of the numbers today, the media, as they do in the U.K., say covid cases tripled IE went for. 0 to 3! Maybe he was clumsy, I do not know enough about him or his agenda. I do however believe that media just love more death and destruction to get their teeth into it again I do not know the political leanings of this broadcaster


I thouoght he was saying that the current situation in Spain is very different to the previous situation, which saw hospitals overloaded, whereas now they are not and the virus is giving rise to fewer seriously ill patients.


----------



## kaipa

He is being heralded as a hero by people on social network sites who seem to support alot of denial. Basically he is prompting his book!! So of course he wants lots of controversy. I will stick with Fernando Simon as he has stuck through through all of this without reacting to lots of pretty awful personal attacks. He isnt promoting anything either!!!


----------



## Megsmum

xabiaxica said:


> Yes, that's what he was saying - that the media wasn't interested in covid19 in March & April etc., which is clearly untrue.
> 
> He's apparently an expert in digestive issues... and a VOX supporter if that says anything.
> 
> What he said in the interview has been attcked as fake news / un bulo, by many
> 
> Oh - & that book - he wrote it...


Which just goes to show how we sometimes take things at face value!


----------



## Roy C

EverHopeful said:


> I thouoght he was saying that the current situation in Spain is very different to the previous situation, which saw hospitals overloaded, whereas now they are not and the virus is giving rise to fewer seriously ill patients.


That's the way I read it and why I posted it.


----------



## DonMarco

Megsmum said:


> Print it off and put in ferry crossing details or check, as I said, with the french authorities, as to what the procedure is crossing the spanish border. I’m sure there is a form you fill in for France as well. If you go to the web site for the Spanish entry form there is an email address contact them or this is what I received from the French when I considered driving back
> 
> https://www.interieur.gouv.fr/Actualites/L-actu-du-Ministere/Attestation-de-deplacement-et-de-voyage


Think we got our wires crossed. No Ferry or air travel involved just crossing borders from Switzerland via France to Spain in my car. There are defenately no forms to filled in when crossing into France from Switzerland or any other Swiss bordering country.

e-mailed the spanish embassy......lets see.


----------



## jimenato

EverHopeful said:


> I thouoght he was saying that the current situation in Spain is very different to the previous situation, which saw hospitals overloaded, whereas now they are not and the virus is giving rise to fewer seriously ill patients.





Roy C said:


> That's the way I read it and why I posted it.


Yes - that was the essence of what he was saying and he may well have a point. 

But he also said that (paraphrased) 'the media weren't reporting back in the spring when we did have a pandemic and the hospitals were overflowing...etc..'

Which is obviously not so - and such an obvious misrepresentation that it must cast doubt upon the other things he is saying. 

I have him down (I admit possibly unfairly) as a polemicist nutjob with an agenda - that's how he came across. 

Above it was mention that he was a member of VOX. I don't know what that is - might it have a bearing on his stance?


----------



## Alcalaina

jimenato said:


> Above it was mention that he was a member of VOX. I don't know what that is - might it have a bearing on his stance?


Undoubtedly. Firstly, Vox are trying to destroy the credibility of the current elected government, and are specialists in spreading fake news. Secondly, many Vox members follow the libertarian philosophy of the American far right, campaigning against compulsory wearing of masks etc. And finally, one has to question the judgement of anyone who supports that odious bunch of neofascists in the first place.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> Undoubtedly. Firstly, Vox are trying to destroy the credibility of the current elected government, and are specialists in spreading fake news. Secondly, many Vox members follow the libertarian philosophy of the American far right, campaigning against compulsory wearing of masks etc. And finally, one has to question the judgement of anyone who supports that odious bunch of neofascists in the first place.


Not very objective, but spot on


----------



## xabiaxica

Roy C said:


> Makes you wonder which version is actually the fake news, is he really a Vox supporter, I would hate to think he was, if it turns out to be true (and it may not be) then I would look on it with a completely different view.


Seen here at a VOX meeting


----------



## xabiaxica

Roy C said:


> That's the way I read it and why I posted it.


Yes, he did say that too. That isn't in question, & Fernando Simón himself would agree with that & has in fact stated the same.

But he was also saying that the figures published by the government were lies.


----------



## jimenato

The interview appeared to be an ambush - they were totally unprepared for this stance and didn't know how to deal with it.

His main point seemed to be that there were virtually no people in hospital now - and I think he said that there was now no pandemic.

This he mixed with a conspiracy theory type issue - that (paraphrased) 'of course they are pushing for vaccination - they need to sell vaccines'.

I would like to see him interviewed again properly - preferably as a debate with other medics/decision makers. 

I would particularly like to know what he thinks should be the practical consequence of his stance.


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Undoubtedly. . And finally, one has to question the judgement of anyone who supports that odious bunch of neofascists in the first place.


Which is why, having discovered the political leanings of the previous one, I'm now looking for a new personal trainer


----------



## Roy C

I obviously have to research more when I share someone on a video, no way would I support this guy or his friends in Vox.


----------



## Megsmum

Roy C said:


> I obviously have to research more when I share someone on a video, no way would I support this guy or his friends in Vox.


But, as I said in a previous post, it shows how those of us who do actually check out what we repeat etc are still vulnerable to opinions that we see.

Don’t sweat it:clap2:


----------



## Alcalaina

Spain now has the worst "second wave" in Europe with over 6,000 new cases reported each day and nearly a hundred deaths in the past week.

Here are a couple of interesting, if somewhat depressing, articles from _El Pais in English_ which explain the situation.

What do the coronavirus data from August tell us about the new spread of the virus in Spain?

Why is Spain being hit again by the coronavirus pandemic?

The government is leaving it to the regions to decide how to handle the crisis, but there are calls to introduce another national State of Alarm and lockdown.


----------



## kaipa

Alcalaina said:


> Spain now has the worst "second wave" in Europe with over 6,000 new cases reported each day and nearly a hundred deaths in the past week.
> 
> Here are a couple of interesting, if somewhat depressing, articles from _El Pais in English_ which explain the situation.
> 
> What do the coronavirus data from August tell us about the new spread of the virus in Spain?
> 
> Why is Spain being hit again by the coronavirus pandemic?
> 
> The government is leaving it to the regions to decide how to handle the crisis, but there are calls to introduce another national State of Alarm and lockdown.


All that haranging Sanchez by the opposition parties and autonomous regions convinced they knew better and now look at Spain. Look at Quim Torra. Not such an expert as he clearly thought he was. Same with Ayuso: Madrid doesnt have anything like enough tracers to do the job she promised! Now we have a fractured country with a plethora of different norms and a growing number of infections which is some area is uncontrollable. How awful for Spain after such national effort and what shame on its politicians!!!


----------



## Megsmum

Alcalaina said:


> Spain now has the worst "second wave" in Europe with over 6,000 new cases reported each day and nearly a hundred deaths in the past week.
> 
> Here are a couple of interesting, if somewhat depressing, articles from _El Pais in English_ which explain the situation.
> 
> What do the coronavirus data from August tell us about the new spread of the virus in Spain?
> 
> Why is Spain being hit again by the coronavirus pandemic?
> 
> The government is leaving it to the regions to decide how to handle the crisis, but there are calls to introduce another national State of Alarm and lockdown.


Thank you for posting and makes interesting reading. A national lockdown, would that help, my region is in the lowest category of new cases etc. Stopping Movement between regions I can see that working, our small village has been inundated with tourists we will be glad to see them go! We are now at a crucial time, we must learn from earlier in the year without going into a total panic about it, this virus is will be here for a long time and realistically we are nowhere near a vaccine


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> All that haranging Sanchez by the opposition parties and autonomous regions convinced they knew better and now look at Spain. Look at Quim Torra. Not such an expert as he clearly thought he was. Same with Ayuso: Madrid doesnt have anything like enough tracers to do the job she promised! Now we have a fractured country with a plethora of different norms and a growing number of infections which is some area is uncontrollable. How awful for Spain after such national effort and what shame on its politicians!!!


Yes, & because of all this haranguing it seems unlikely that national borders will be closed again - although we of course don't know how much difference that in itself made.


----------



## baldilocks

Another. properly enforced lockdown is the only answer. we were doing well, while we kept out visitors and other travellers (don't like it? tough.} Would you rather all be in hospital or the morgue? For Europe, it started in Northern Italy then people coming from there spread it to Spain and elsewhere and so on. Isolationism is the only solution as I said way back several months ago. 

The argument, 6 months ago was people need to get back home. That need is not greater than the need for those who are not infected to remain so.


----------



## baldilocks

kaipa said:


> All that haranging Sanchez by the opposition parties and autonomous regions convinced they knew better and now look at Spain. Look at Quim Torra. Not such an expert as he clearly thought he was. Same with Ayuso: Madrid doesnt have anything like enough tracers to do the job she promised! Now we have a fractured country with a plethora of different norms and a growing number of infections which is some area is uncontrollable. How awful for Spain after such national effort and what shame on its politicians!!!


They need to stop listening to Trump - Covid is medical not political. Andalucía used to have an excellent medical service until the PP took over recently, now it is sod the medical need what is the cheapest we can get away with?


----------



## Alcalaina

baldilocks said:


> Another. properly enforced lockdown is the only answer. we were doing well, while we kept out visitors and other travellers (don't like it? tough.} Would you rather all be in hospital or the morgue? For Europe, it started in Northern Italy then people coming from there spread it to Spain and elsewhere and so on. Isolationism is the only solution as I said way back several months ago.
> 
> The argument, 6 months ago was people need to get back home. That need is not greater than the need for those who are not infected to remain so.


I don't think there is any evidence that the rise is due to visitors from abroad. As I understand it, it is mainly due the relaxing of restrictions on social gatherings within Spain, and people returning to work in unhealthy conditions like food processing plants.

And weren't the ones supposedly guilty of bringing the virus from Italy coming home from a football match where a Spanish side was playing?


----------



## xabiaxica

baldilocks said:


> Another. properly enforced lockdown is the only answer. we were doing well, while we kept out visitors and other travellers (don't like it? tough.} Would you rather all be in hospital or the morgue? For Europe, it started in Northern Italy then people coming from there spread it to Spain and elsewhere and so on. Isolationism is the only solution as I said way back several months ago.
> 
> The argument, 6 months ago was people need to get back home. That need is not greater than the need for those who are not infected to remain so.


Our total cases in my town have doubled in the past 14 days,  

Still VERY few even if counted against the usual population with no tourists,

It was only to be expected with so many extra people around from all over the place, but when you see that happening after months with just 12 cases - now up to 35, it's disheartening. All the new ones are since mid/late July. 

A State of Alarm would have to be called for a complete lockdown - & I seriously doubt that it would pass a vote. 


We can't be locked down forever. Yes cases are on the rise, but unless the hospitals get to the stage that they can't cope, we have to get on with things as well as we can.

Local short term lockdowns perhaps, or going back to phase two maybe as we've already seen - but the world at large won't survive long term or repeated across the board lockdowns. 

IMO of course


----------



## Megsmum

Agree with that. Why should people in my region lock down when cases are very very low. We cannot close borders and to whom do we close, the world. 

Locking down local areas seems to me to be the best option. If there is a spike in my region then yes, lockdown, nobody in nobody out until the contagion has decreased. Locking down the Asturias because Extremadura has a spike it silly, it benefits nobody.

I do not think, unless we are reaching the 1000 deaths a day mark, any country will totally lockdown


----------



## Pesky Wesky

In Madrid Ayuso announces contracts for 10,000 new temporary teachers, with teachers going back to work on the 1st of Sept!!!
https://elpais.com/espana/madrid/2020-08-25/vuelta-al-cole-en-madrid-todos-los-detalles.html
Classes in school for all students up to 2nd year of secondary and from then on to combine on line and in centre


----------



## Pesky Wesky

More info about schools in English
https://english.elpais.com/society/...some-students-and-bring-down-class-sizes.html


----------



## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> More info about schools in English
> https://english.elpais.com/society/...some-students-and-bring-down-class-sizes.html


To me, as a close observer, teaching English or any language online without the obstruction of facemasks is better because both teacher and pupil (s) can see the movement of lips and mouths which help with the learning of pronunciation.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

baldilocks said:


> To me, as a close observer, teaching English or any language online without the obstruction of facemasks is better because both teacher and pupil (s) can see the movement of lips and mouths which help with the learning of pronunciation.


True


----------



## kaipa

baldilocks said:


> Pesky Wesky said:
> 
> 
> 
> More info about schools in English
> https://english.elpais.com/society/...some-students-and-bring-down-class-sizes.html
> 
> 
> 
> To me, as a close observer, teaching English or any language online without the obstruction of facemasks is better because both teacher and pupil (s) can see the movement of lips and mouths which help with the learning of pronunciation.
Click to expand...

It's a nice idea unfortunately often the connection renders a time lag so the opposite is true. It's a bit like watching a dubbed English film- Sean Connery's lips have stopped moving long before he's uttered " Mi nombre es Bond, James Bond"🤣


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> It's a nice idea unfortunately often the connection renders a time lag so the opposite is true. It's a bit like watching a dubbed English film- Sean Connery's lips have stopped moving long before he's uttered " Mi nombre es Bond, James Bond"🤣


That's real life. My students often have to negotiate, give reports, or participate in meetings in English using video calls on Google Meet or similar. A bad connection, a Brit from Newcastle and a time lag are all par for the course.


----------



## DonMarco

Earlier I posed the question regarding required Covid 19 related documentation when entering Spain in a car via France and some of you replied stating that I would need to complete the form FCS.

As it was impossible to complete the form without a flight number I contacted the Spanish embassy in Switzerland asking for advise. Pretty useless as all I got were links to the Spain Travel Health website I'd visited on numerous occasions and always ended up at the FCS form.

I decided to contact Spain Travel Health via e-mail asking if any Covid 19 related documents were needed if entering Spain from Switzerland via France and got the following reply.

*“Besides your normal docummentation, no."*

Posting this in case someone might find it useful.


----------



## 95995

Pesky Wesky said:


> In Madrid Ayuso announces contracts for 10,000 new temporary teachers, with teachers going back to work on the 1st of Sept!!!
> https://elpais.com/espana/madrid/2020-08-25/vuelta-al-cole-en-madrid-todos-los-detalles.html
> Classes in school for all students up to 2nd year of secondary and from then on to combine on line and in centre


My reading is that this is pretty much all over the place. For example antibody testing as opposed to virus testing, and still a mix of online and face to face for certain students. It would not inspire my confdence if I had children (or grandchildren) at school in Madrid. That said, more teachers I think are essential.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

EverHopeful said:


> My reading is that this is pretty much all over the place. For example antibody testing as opposed to virus testing, and still a mix of online and face to face for certain students. It would not inspire my confdence if I had children (or grandchildren) at school in Madrid. That said, more teachers I think are essential.


 How she's going to pull over 10,000 teachers out of the hat for the start of school I don't know, but if she does I know lots of teachers who are waiting to be called up are going to be happy 

I think online and F2F is how things are going for older children on a more permanent basis, just as working from home at least part of the week will become the norm for more adults. As we have said before, this was all coming anyway. Corona virus has just made it happen quicker.


----------



## kaipa

Pesky Wesky said:


> EverHopeful said:
> 
> 
> 
> My reading is that this is pretty much all over the place. For example antibody testing as opposed to virus testing, and still a mix of online and face to face for certain students. It would not inspire my confdence if I had children (or grandchildren) at school in Madrid. That said, more teachers I think are essential.
> 
> 
> 
> How she's going to pull over 10,000 teachers out of the hat for the start of school I don't know, but if she does I know lots of teachers who are waiting to be called up are going to be happy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think online and F2F is how things are going for older children on a more permanent basis, just as working from home at least part of the week will become the norm for more adults. As we have said before, this was all coming anyway. Corona virus has just made it happen quicker.
Click to expand...

I agree that online learning and teletrabajo was always waiting in the wings and this has pushed such stuff forward. Cant stop the future.


----------



## Roy C

DonMarco said:


> Earlier I posed the question regarding required Covid 19 related documentation when entering Spain in a car via France and some of you replied stating that I would need to complete the form FCS.
> 
> As it was impossible to complete the form without a flight number I contacted the Spanish embassy in Switzerland asking for advise. Pretty useless as all I got were links to the Spain Travel Health website I'd visited on numerous occasions and always ended up at the FCS form.
> 
> I decided to contact Spain Travel Health via e-mail asking if any Covid 19 related documents were needed if entering Spain from Switzerland via France and got the following reply.
> 
> *“Besides your normal docummentation, no."*
> 
> Posting this in case someone might find it useful.


That is just nuts! Talk about leaving the back door open. What's the point in the form?


----------



## Lynn R

Roy C said:


> That is just nuts! Talk about leaving the back door open. What's the point in the form?


Spain is not alone. We recently went to Amsterdam for a few days. Completed the health travel form for The Netherlands - but there was no-one collecting them at Schiphol airport (at least not for arrivals from within the Schengen zone) so we just walked straight through the airport.

On arrival back at Málaga (although still arrivals from within the Schengen zone) we had our temperatures checked and the QR codes we'd been sent read.


----------



## Roy C

Lynn R said:


> Spain is not alone. We recently went to Amsterdam for a few days. Completed the health travel form for The Netherlands - but there was no-one collecting them at Schiphol airport (at least not for arrivals from within the Schengen zone) so we just walked straight through the airport.
> 
> On arrival back at Málaga (although still arrivals from within the Schengen zone) we had our temperatures checked and the QR codes we'd been sent read.



Well clearly it's far better to share best practice than poor practice, which is obviously not the case. When I read about how well they're doing at Malaga airport with carrying out procedures I think brilliant, good on them but then they leave the back door open (whether other countries do it or not) is just defeating the object. I'm sorry but clearly they need to close that door if they truly want to defeat the virus. Also , Schengen means nothing when trying to control the virus. If you travel from Ireland or the UK, it makes no difference to the virus.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

annna89 said:


> Now it is much worse, it seems that things are getting worse. It is rumoured that Barcelona will be confined again in September...


 There are lots of rumours. 

September 18th is rumoured to be the day that lockdown in announced again. Makes sense, a couple of weeks after children start school and some parents will have gone back to work; time for the virus to breed nicely.
Others say that there will be no more general lockdowns as it's not proved they are effective and it's too damaging for local and national economy.

But they are rumours and* best put on the back burner* until they are announced by the corresponding authority because one thing is certain with Covid - you never know what the next twist to the tale will be.


----------



## kaipa

Pesky Wesky said:


> annna89 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now it is much worse, it seems that things are getting worse. It is rumoured that Barcelona will be confined again in September...
> 
> 
> 
> There are lots of rumours.
> 
> September 18th is rumoured to be the day that lockdown in announced again. Makes sense, a couple of weeks after children start school and some parents will have gone back to work; time for the virus to breed nicely.
> Others say that there will be no more general lockdowns as it's not proved they are effective and it's too damaging for local and national economy.
> 
> But they are rumours and* best put on the back burner* until they are announced by the corresponding authority because one thing is certain with Covid - you never know what the next twist to the tale will be.
Click to expand...

Sanchez has said individual regions can impose mini states of Alarm if they wish with army to help with tracing. Casado now wanting national government control after seemingly voting against the original Sate of Alarm!!. Basically Spain biggest obstacle to tackling the virus is actually the politicians not the public who are becoming less and less supportive of measures that differ depending on where you live and just cause more confusion. Dont think controlling borders is an issue for Spain as is infection rate is now the highest in Europe and most of the outbreaks are from lack of social distancing in parties, bars, etc not from importation from other countries. Its inevitable that the infection rate will increase more rapidly through sept/ october but most people agree that a complete national lockdown is unlikely due to lack of political harmony and the fact that the economy would break completely. Already Spain is going to be struggling to balance the books. A second lockdown would be impossible without having to beg Brussels for another huge loan to pay ERTEs. All in all I imagine that the current state of affairs will continue through until Spring. Areas will suffer, hospitals will be full but it will move around the country as opposed to being bad everywhere at the same time.


----------



## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> How she's going to pull over 10,000 teachers out of the hat for the start of school I don't know, but if she does I know lots of teachers who are waiting to be called up are going to be happy
> 
> I think online and F2F is how things are going for older children on a more permanent basis, just as working from home at least part of the week will become the norm for more adults. As we have said before, this was all coming anyway. Corona virus has just made it happen quicker.


As usual, the PP has reacted late and insufficiently after demanding control.

But at least the education sector has managed to persuade her administration that something needs to be done.

We were talking to one of the AMPA organisers in my younger son's primary school a few weeks ago and she said that the Education Council of Madrid had "recommended" that class numbers do not exceed 20. 
In my son's year, the class size is around 24, but no resources were offered to provide that extra class needed so the plan was to ignore the recommendation (what choice was there?)

We weren't that concerned about 4 extra kids to be honest, the risk comes from the 20, not the "extra" 4. 

But this measure does go some way to help, except for the fact that there is nowhere for the school to hold extra classes.... who knows how they will do it.

Sadly, there probably are 10,000 teachers out of work in the community, so at least this in theory provides them with an opportunity to work and make a bit of difference to this situation. That is of course unless Ayuso places a contract on a private firm to supply those teachers, arguing that it was the only way to solve the recruitment issue in such a short time...


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> Sanchez has said individual regions can impose mini states of Alarm if they wish with army to help with tracing. Casado now wanting national government control after seemingly voting against the original Sate of Alarm!!. Basically Spain biggest obstacle to tackling the virus is actually the politicians not the public who are becoming less and less suppor ]ive of measures that differ depending on where you live and just cause more confusion. Dont think controlling borders is an issue for Spain as is infection rate is now the highest in Europe and most of the outbreaks are from lack of social distancing in parties, bars, etc not from importation from other countries. Its inevitable that the infection rate will increase more rapidly through sept/ october but most people agree that a complete national lockdown is unlikely due to lack of political harmony and the fact that the economy would break completely. Already Spain is going to be struggling to balance the books. A second lockdown would be impossible without having to beg Brussels for another huge loan to pay ERTEs. All in all I imagine that the current state of affairs will continue through until Spring. Areas will suffer, hospitals will be full but it will move around the country as opposed to being bad everywhere at the same time.


I think this is probably the issue everywhere in the world. I know from family in the U.K. who live in practically covid free areas the frustration of politicians and the continuing U-Turns, stay home, go out eat out eat at home blah blah blah. 

Lockdowns should, imho be based on the prevalence of the virus , test results and outbreaks in individual locations. No country, not just Spain, can survive intact and more importantly provide a safe and secure future for our children and their children. 

The virus is so very new, it’s only been, although it feels longer, just over five months since it hit the headlines, theories about spread , infections rates, mutations and clinical outcomes will take years and years to really understand. 

Whilst I feel for those affected by his virus, for the vulnerable, of which I am one (health wise) that empathy is nothing in comparison for how I feel about the future of the youth across the globe. Future generations not only will be paying for the past austerity but now the virus and the economic impact that’s bound to follow. That for me should be uppermost when balancing health versus the future, which is why, unless we have a nationwide/worldwide increase as seen earlier this year, national lockdowns must not happen.

Out of interest, Italy, so badly affected at the start, how are they doing now?


----------



## Megsmum

*Masks on the beach*

I have been asked a friend, do you have to wear a mask on the beach


----------



## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> I have been asked a friend, do you have to wear a mask on the beach




Each comunidad has its own specific rules, but generally once you are seated in your spot, & heading from there to the sea & back, no.


----------



## Love Karma

Megsmum said:


> I have been asked a friend, do you have to wear a mask on the beach


In Andalusia Yes you must wear a mask whilst walking anywhere but not whilst laying/sitting on your personal area that you have laid your towel. If walking along the shoreline you must wear a mask


----------



## Overandout

Depends where! Each CA is now in control of it's own rules and regulations.

I was in Andalucia a few weeks ago and, while seated in your own chair more than 2m away from anyone else outside your group, no mask was necessary. There were also restrictions on the size of groups (no more than 10 people together and no more than 2 sombrillas per group). 

If you got up to stroll around however protección civil soon turned up to tell you to put it on.

I have to say that they were quite efficient about policing the masks requirements, but didn't seem to be bothered about the rules on group sizes.


----------



## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> There are lots of rumours.
> 
> September 18th is rumoured to be the day that lockdown in announced again.


That one was started by an English-language advertising paper called Euro Weekly News. It resulted from a conversation in a bar between one of their employees and two diputados (MPs). They presented it as a given fact, but later backtracked and said it referred to contingency plans being made (quite sensibly) by the government if things don't improve. It hasn't, AFAIK, been reported in any Spanish newspaper.

https://www.euroweeklynews.com/2020...a-blanca-on-social-media-over-lockdown-plans/

Sanchez announced yesterday that the government would support individual autonomous communities if they want to introduce their own lockdown. But presumably this wouldn't affect international borders - that would need a vote in parliament to introduce another Estado de Alarma.

https://elpais.com/espana/2020-08-2...o-de-alarma-para-contener-el-coronavirus.html


----------



## Megsmum

Thank you. Told her to check and follow local regulations


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> That one was started by an English-language advertising paper called Euro Weekly News. It resulted from a conversation in a bar between one of their employees and two diputados (MPs). They presented it as a given fact, but later backtracked and said it referred to contingency plans being made (quite sensibly) by the government if things don't improve. It hasn't, AFAIK, been reported in any Spanish newspaper.
> 
> https://www.euroweeklynews.com/2020...a-blanca-on-social-media-over-lockdown-plans/
> 
> Sanchez announced yesterday that the government would support individual autonomous communities if they want to introduce their own lockdown. But presumably this wouldn't affect international borders - that would need a vote in parliament to introduce another Estado de Alarma.
> 
> https://elpais.com/espana/2020-08-2...o-de-alarma-para-contener-el-coronavirus.html


That's where it originated in the English speaking community (it was posted on here), but not in the Spanish. As far as I know amongst the Spanish speaking it's just a calculation that some local would be politicians have done thinking about back to school and how that will affect life.


----------



## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> Our local version of the Virgin Mary, Nuestra Señora de los Santos, has been moved into the town from her normal residence a few miles away to protect us against the virus. The mayor handed her the bastón and they are now officially in joint control. Amazing how these superstitions still coexist alongside rational thinking and scientific evidence.


Meanwhile, I saw this on the news... 

A curate gives mass by hand to around a total of 30 worshippers while (unknown to him) he was contagious.


https://okdiario.com/andalucia/cura...tro-misas-cuando-ya-estaba-contagiado-6061080


----------



## kaipa

Just recieved info about my son's return to school. 3 day/ 2 day week for Eso3 and up Reduced classes. Library now classroom plus gym and patio is also converted. Encouraged to use bikes/ walk. Temperature checked on entry. Formal agreement to be signed. Compulsory mask. 1.5 distancing. All parents told to try and prepare for online teaching in event of confinement.


----------



## Lynn R

I'm glad to see some action being taken about the people who spread these crackpot theories on social media.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...t-man-who-spread-false-news-about-coronavirus


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> I'm glad to see some action being taken about the people who spread these crackpot theories on social media.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...t-man-who-spread-false-news-about-coronavirus


Although it seems because he published a specific threat to Sánchez...


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Why Spain?
Why is Spain being hit again by the coronavirus pandemic?

EL PAÍS spoke with experts about the rise in Covid-19 cases, which they blamed on a hasty deescalation process and said must be addressed with better contact tracing and data management

In English
https://english.elpais.com/society/...ng-hit-again-by-the-coronavirus-pandemic.html
In Spanish
https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-08-22/expertos-coronavirus.html


What we all suspected really....


----------



## kaipa

Just seen that in Madrid the teachers are having to queue for over 2 hours for their PCRs! Meanwhile Ayuso , instead of actually managing the situation, tours TV/ radio blaming Sanchez when it was her promise to do these tests. She really is like Trump in her behaviour


----------



## Isobella

Roy C said:


> Who knows, nobody really knows. They think the infection rate has gone up with less deaths, could be due to much more testing being carried out and those with milder or asymptomatic being found, hence high infection rate with a lower death rate. There could also be a lag but also people are more aware and many heeding the advice. I feel it's better to think positive and follow the guidelines.


That is what I thought but the number of hospitalisations have risen and many more in intensive care.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> Just seen that in Madrid the teachers are having to queue for over 2 hours for their PCRs! Meanwhile Ayuso , instead of actually managing the situation, tours TV/ radio blaming Sanchez when it was her promise to do these tests. She really is like Trump in her behaviour


 OH was due to be tested yesterday Wed between 2:30 and 3:00. At 1:00 he was told not to go. He now has a time for Friday.
He was actually told to go for the test on Tuesday evening in an email from the head of the school. In the email he was told to fill in a form. However, the head had not been sent the form which he was supposed to send on to the teachers....
Complete balls up.
That's state education.
Meanwhile, my daughter who teaches in a private school, was given a test to do herself at home, which she did and tested negative :clap2::clap2::clap2:, so the chances are that mum and dad are also negative:clap2::clap2::clap2:


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Isobella said:


> That is what I thought but the number of hospitalisations have risen and many more in intensive care.


 Isabella, I never know whether you are referring to Spain or the UK in your comments...
Here is all the latest info 2nd Sept about number of cases, hospitialisations, etc for Spain
https://www.mscbs.gob.es/profesiona...Cov/documentos/Actualizacion_198_COVID-19.pdf


----------



## Isobella

Pesky Wesky said:


> Isabella, I never know whether you are referring to Spain or the UK in your comments...
> Here is all the latest info 2nd Sept about number of cases, hospitialisations, etc for Spain
> https://www.mscbs.gob.es/profesiona...Cov/documentos/Actualizacion_198_COVID-19.pdf


Sorry, I was referring to Spain, specifically Andalucia as had just read the figures when I posted.

https://www.diariosur.es/andalucia/andalucia-sube-hospitalizados-20200902135303-nt.html


----------



## xabiaxica

Isobella said:


> Sorry, I was referring to Spain, specifically Andalucia as had just read the figures when I posted.
> 
> https://www.diariosur.es/andalucia/andalucia-sube-hospitalizados-20200902135303-nt.html


Andalucía is actually way down the list 


https://www.facebook.com/michael.soffe.7/posts/10157308268705143


----------



## Isobella

Wasn’t referring to a list, just that hospitalisations had increased quite a bit in answer to RoyC. Post


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Isobella said:


> Sorry, I was referring to Spain, specifically Andalucia as had just read the figures when I posted.
> 
> https://www.diariosur.es/andalucia/andalucia-sube-hospitalizados-20200902135303-nt.html


----------



## Lynn R

An example of why the impact of CV19 on hospitals shouldn't just be considered as a question of how many CV19 patients there are:-

https://www.malagahoy.es/ronda/Cierra-UCI-hospital-Ronda-falta-personal_0_1500450253.html


----------



## baldilocks

Lynn R said:


> An example of why the impact of CV19 on hospitals shouldn't just be considered as a question of how many CV19 patients there are:-
> 
> https://www.malagahoy.es/ronda/Cierra-UCI-hospital-Ronda-falta-personal_0_1500450253.html


A lot of the problem is down to the PSOE losing control of Andalucía. Since the PP took over, the health service has seen cut after cut after cut.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

*There’s a Simple Reason Spain Has Been Hit Hard by Coronavirus*


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/24/...l?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage


----------



## Lynn R

The President of the Junta de Andalucia has announced today that some additional measures will be introduced to try to prevent the further spread of the virus, but no details given of what they may be - details expected on Monday.

https://sevilla.abc.es/andalucia/se...-frenar-coronavirus-202009261348_noticia.html


----------



## kaipa

It is now clear from what is happening in Madrid that Covid19 has been politicised. Ayuso and PP have been out to get the government since the start of the pandemic. Yesterday's decision to ignore central government and implement focussed restrictions is all about ideology. PP and Ayuso's power comes from the wealthier populace and they are not willing to sacrifice their liberties in order to help the poorer parts of the community. Keeping the economy going for Ayuso means keeping the wealth with the wealthy. What should have happened is she should have spent more time and money on creating a better track and trace and also, now, diverting funds so that those areas with contagion rates have access to more healthcare facilities than the less affected areas. Spain is now about to descend into calamitous second wave due to the fragility of its political system and not because of a lack of scientific and logistical expertise.


----------



## Ifn

Pesky Wesky said:


> *There’s a Simple Reason Spain Has Been Hit Hard by Coronavirus*
> 
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/24/...l?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage


Yes, I read the same article. I don’t know enough about Spain’s political structure but if it is as described ....what a mess! And do any of the parties have any incentive to change the system?


----------



## Chopera

Quite interesting graphs of covid-19 in Spain (apologies of already posted)

https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-07...ovincias-asi-avanzan-los-casos-en-espana.html

What catches my eye is that the number of new cases appears to have passed the point of inflection, and the rate of new cases is now decreasing.

Also the number of daily deaths is considerably lower than the peak in April. Although these are still increasing, and tend to lag the data for cases by a few weeks.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Blimey, the government says it will take control of Madrid if Ayuso doesn't change tactics by Monday, meaning she will have to announce action tomorrow Sunday 27th!
https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-09...la-gravedad-de-la-crisis-del-coronavirus.html


----------



## Beach buddy

Just read that new measures to be announced for Malaga Province on Tuesday. Just have to wait and see.


----------



## xabiaxica

An interesting take on why contagion numbers are so high in Spain. Too much socialising...

https://medium.com/enrique-dans/spaniards-are-all-wearing-masks-so-why-is-the-countrys-infection-rate-so-high-e7451024316e

Sadly true imo. Every day FB is full of photos of people socialising in each other's homes without a mask in sight. Not just Spanish people.
They might not become ill from the virus themselves, but they could easily be asymptomatic carriers.
Atm a lot of socialising is outdoors, but it won't be long before it's too cool to do so - in the evening it already is.
I do also think that we have to take into account the testing of asymptomatic contacts, not just those who have symptoms. If only those who appeared ill were tested, as in the early days, contagion numbers would appear lower.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Pesky Wesky said:


> Blimey, the government says it will take control of Madrid if Ayuso doesn't change tactics by Monday, meaning she will have to announce action tomorrow Sunday 27th!
> https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-09...la-gravedad-de-la-crisis-del-coronavirus.html


 Surprise!
Nothing has happened yet!


----------



## Beach buddy

Lynn R said:


> The President of the Junta de Andalucia has announced today that some additional measures will be introduced to try to prevent the further spread of the virus, but no details given of what they may be - details expected on Monday.
> 
> https://sevilla.abc.es/andalucia/se...-frenar-coronavirus-202009261348_noticia.html


Think you will find that it will be on Tuesday(Martes)


----------



## Roy C

Any news on this?


----------



## Joppa

Family gathering reduced from 10 to 6. Future limitation at hospitality venues possible.


----------



## Lynn R

Roy C said:


> Any news on this?


Nothing very dramatic. As Joppa says, gatherings of family or friends now reduced to six throughout Andalucia, local lockdown in one area (Casariche in Sevilla Province) where the infection rate is vey high, plus mass testing to be carried out in some other locations with particularly high infection rates. They will not introduce a policy of automatic local lockdowns in places where the infection rate exceeds 500 per 100k population, but consider each area in the light of the particular circumstances there.

https://www.malagahoy.es/andalucia/nuevas-medidas-coronavirus-Andalucia_0_1505849627.html


----------



## Alcalaina

Lynn R said:


> Nothing very dramatic. As Joppa says, gatherings of family or friends now reduced to six throughout Andalucia, local lockdown in one area (Casariche in Sevilla Province) where the infection rate is vey high, plus mass testing to be carried out in some other locations with particularly high infection rates. They will not introduce a policy of automatic local lockdowns in places where the infection rate exceeds 500 per 100k population, but consider each area in the light of the particular circumstances there.
> 
> https://www.malagahoy.es/andalucia/nuevas-medidas-coronavirus-Andalucia_0_1505849627.html


A Spanish friend is insisting that the new regulations (max of six people, bars closing at 10 etc) only apply to those localities where there is a high number of cases, not the whole of Andalucia. Otherwise it's up to the Ayuntamiento. I'm confused!


----------



## kaipa

They appear to have come to an agreement that means nationwide restrictions in localities who reach certain figures. It is all about placating Ayuso who has now levelled her attack on the government as being about Madrid being treated differently. It really is tiresome!!


----------



## Alcalaina

This bears out what my friend is saying.

https://sevilla.abc.es/andalucia/se...nuevas-normas-junta-202009292329_noticia.html

Machine translation:



> At the moment, the measure that affects all Andalusians refers to the number of people who can meet in family or social gatherings with friends. From now on, only six people may meet, except in the case of cohabitants in which case it is extended to the maximum number of people living under the same roof, in meetings both on public roads (parks and squares) and in public and private spaces.
> 
> *The rules that govern bars and hospitality establishments continue as before , with a maximum of ten diners per table*. The capacity is also maintained for weddings, baptisms and communions, as well as wakes.
> 
> For weddings , baptisms and communions and similar celebrations, always in licensed catering establishments, they can accommodate up to 150 people in outdoor spaces .
> 
> In the case of wakes, a maximum limit of 25 people in outdoor spaces or 10 people in closed spaces is established , whether or not they are living together.


----------



## 95995

Alcalaina said:


> A Spanish friend is insisting that the new regulations (max of six people, bars closing at 10 etc) *only apply to those localities where there is a high number of cases, not the whole of Andalucia*. Otherwise it's up to the Ayuntamiento. I'm confused!


Acording to what I have heard, though apparently they will be continually reviewing the situation as to the number of cases elsewhere and the rules could well be extended to other localities.


----------



## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> This bears out what my friend is saying.
> 
> https://sevilla.abc.es/andalucia/se...nuevas-normas-junta-202009292329_noticia.html
> 
> Machine translation:


This takes it national 

https://www.abc.es/sociedad/abci-li...vas-medidas-sanidad-202009301139_noticia.html


----------



## Isobella

xabiaxica said:


> This takes it national
> 
> https://www.abc.es/sociedad/abci-li...vas-medidas-sanidad-202009301139_noticia.html


Sounds sensible to me the figure of 500 in 100,000. Uk has the stupid 10pm. closing pubs and 6 people rule and in my area it is only 8.3 in 100,000.


----------



## xgarb

Alcalaina said:


> This bears out what my friend is saying.
> 
> For weddings , baptisms and communions and similar celebrations, always in licensed catering establishments, they can accommodate up to 150 people in outdoor spaces .
> 
> In the case of wakes, a maximum limit of 25 people in outdoor spaces or 10 people in closed spaces is established , whether or not they are living together.


Doesn't make sense.. wedding with alcohol, dancing, sitting in close proximity and generally having a good old time - 150 people. Wake where normally not the same activities - 25 people.


----------



## Alcalaina

xgarb said:


> Doesn't make sense.. wedding with alcohol, dancing, sitting in close proximity and generally having a good old time - 150 people. Wake where normally not the same activities - 25 people.


Does anything make sense these days?

I suppose weddings contribute more to the economy, and that’s top priority for the current Andalusian government.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Pesky Wesky said:


> Blimey, the government says it will take control of Madrid if Ayuso doesn't change tactics by Monday, meaning she will have to announce action tomorrow Sunday 27th!
> https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-09...la-gravedad-de-la-crisis-del-coronavirus.html


 And still nothing...
What they are wrangling about are pathetic measures anyway, as other posters have mentioned. You can only go out if you are going to work, to class, to do an exam, have legal obligations, to return to your house or "because of exteme need", so what, 90% - 95% of the population can move around...? Bars and restaurants will close at 10:00 or 11:00 because of course the virus only goes out late, and you can only get together in groups of 6, 'cos it's mate number 7 who's got IT, isn't it ?( see John Bishop video 






> De aprobarse finalmente, en estos 10 municipios (Madrid, Alcalá de Henares, Alcobendas, Alcorcón, Fuenlabrada, Leganés Parla, Getafe, Móstoles y Torrejón) no podrían entrar ni salir personas salvo para ir a trabajar, a clase, hacer exámenes, obligaciones legales, para volver a su domicilio o por causa de extrema necesidad. Solo podrían reunirse seis personas, tanto en ámbitos públicos como privados (algo ya en vigor), y se reducirían los aforos en los establecimientos comerciales y locales de hostelería al 50%; los primeros tendrán que cerrar a las 22.00 y los segundos a las 23.00, aunque no podrían admitir nuevos clientes desde una hora antes. En ellos, se prohibiría el consumo en barra. También se limitaría la capacidad de los lugares de culto a un tercio, siempre manteniendo la distancia de seguridad, y en los velatorios, a 10 personas en espacios cerrados y 15 en abiertos.
> Closing


https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-09...y-otros-nueve-municipios-de-la-comunidad.html


Measures might be announced tomorrow, but when will they be put into force? It's likely that Ayuso will contest it and it will be taken to court as unconstitutional...
What a mess. Similar to other countries though


----------



## kaipa

Ayuso now refusing to implement the new laws. Everyone now starting to take sides. PP controlled regions seem to take the view that the virus should no longer be allowed to dictate what we do whilst the government warns of a huge second wave which will be uncontrollable. It feels like we are in an Apocalyptic Hollywood film. I wonder if people will start to persecute those who disagree with their views at local levels.


----------



## Overandout

So, if I live in Madrid, and Madrid is confined. I am not allowed to go out unless I am doing an authorised activity?

But the bar in the street downstairs is allowed to open until 10pm?

So who is allowed to go to the bar?


----------



## Alcalaina

Overandout said:


> So, if I live in Madrid, and Madrid is confined. I am not allowed to go out unless I am doing an authorised activity?
> 
> But the bar in the street downstairs is allowed to open until 10pm?
> 
> So who is allowed to go to the bar?


Well, you're going to need a drink after that authorised activity aren't you!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> So, if I live in Madrid, and Madrid is confined. I am not allowed to go out unless I am doing an authorised activity?
> 
> But the bar in the street downstairs is allowed to open until 10pm?
> 
> So who is allowed to go to the bar?


 Exactly, this is what I understand the situation to be too.
Also I think shops are allowed to be open, jewellers, clothes, tool shops, etc as they are places of work, but as you say, who is allowed to go in them?
It's a complete farce and these psuedo measures are going to end up spending a lot of our money with all this toing and froing and a possible future court case


----------



## timwip

What I do not understand is (a) culturally Italy and Spain are similar; (b) Italy and Spain were hit hardest by Covid this spring; however, (c) Italy is doing much better than Spain in this second wave. Has the health minister of Spain been in contact with there counterpart in Italy to learn what Italy is doing right? or are they just too proud?


----------



## Joppa

timwip said:


> What I do not understand is (a) culturally Italy and Spain are similar; (b) Italy and Spain were hit hardest by Covid this spring; however, (c) Italy is doing much better than Spain in this second wave. Has the health minister of Spain been in contact with there counterpart in Italy to learn what Italy is doing right? or are they just too proud?


Reasons why Italy has fared better than Spain include more testing (all returnees from Spain are tested at airport), better track and trace, longer lockdown and gradual lifting, swift action in case of local flare-ups.


----------



## baldilocks

timwip said:


> What I do not understand is (a) culturally Italy and Spain are similar; (b) Italy and Spain were hit hardest by Covid this spring; however, (c) Italy is doing much better than Spain in this second wave. Has the health minister of Spain been in contact with there counterpart in Italy to learn what Italy is doing right? or are they just too proud?


More foreign tourists bringing in more bugs to Spain than to Italy


----------



## Alcalaina

baldilocks said:


> More foreign tourists bringing in more bugs to Spain than to Italy


Baldi, there is absolutely no evidence to support that claim!



> What I do not understand is (a) culturally Italy and Spain are similar; (b) Italy and Spain were hit hardest by Covid this spring; however, (c) Italy is doing much better than Spain in this second wave. Has the health minister of Spain been in contact with there counterpart in Italy to learn what Italy is doing right? or are they just too proud?


Timwip, this article offers some suggestions. Italy's efficient track-and-trace system is definitely a factor. It might also be that because they were hit so hard early on, the Italians were much more likely to observe the restrictions. It's also possible that their "second wave" just might not have happened yet.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/a...t-is-italy-doing-better-than-spain-france-u-k

I don't think it's a case of the Spanish health minister being to proud to contact the Italian one. Anti-covid measures in Spain were passed from central government to the regions at the end of the state of emergency (July) and they took widely differing approaches (as you can tell by the latest sh1tstorm in Madrid).


----------



## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> Exactly, this is what I understand the situation to be too.
> Also I think shops are allowed to be open, jewellers, clothes, tool shops, etc as they are places of work, but as you say, who is allowed to go in them?
> It's a complete farce and these psuedo measures are going to end up spending a lot of our money with all this toing and froing and a possible future court case


Right so it is now clear!

The bars are open because we can all go to the bar!

Or the cinema, or the gym, or wherever else we want as long as it is inside our own municipality!!

So I'm "locked down" in Madrid, with its 600km2, 15,000 bars and restaurants, and god knows how many cinemas, theatres, shopping centres etc....

How am I going to cope? 

But don't worry, I can't leave Madrid so there's no danger of me being infected by, or infecting any of the other 3.2 million people confined here with me.

:clap2:


----------



## Overandout

baldilocks said:


> More foreign tourists bringing in more bugs to Spain than to Italy


If you think that Italy doesn't attract many foreign visitors, then you obviously have not spent much time in Rome......


----------



## Overandout

Alcalaina said:


> Baldi, there is absolutely no evidence to support that claim!


Hang on, ask Ayuso!

She managed to draw the conclusion that foreigners were to blame in Madrid.

The worst contagion rates are in the areas with the most dense population, and highest use of public transport. The highest users of public transport is by immigrants and the most densely populated areas are where most latin american immigrants settle, QED, the latin immigrants are to blame! Easy!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> Hang on, ask Ayuso!
> 
> She managed to draw the conclusion that foreigners were to blame in Madrid.
> 
> The worst contagion rates are in the areas with the most dense population, and highest use of public transport. The highest users of public transport is by immigrants and the most densely populated areas are where most latin american immigrants settle, QED, the latin immigrants are to blame! Easy!


Trying find a thread in Ayuso's arguments is like digging deep into a black hole...

But it's weird...

Santoña was confined a couple of weeks ago N Spain, Cantabrian coast 11,000 pop, also Lorca, SE Spain, 66,000 pop, and another very small place (can't remember the name) in the south which had 5 times the stipulated limit of infections.
There doesn't seem to be a pattern and there are outbreaks all over the country.
Maybe tracking really is the answer and isn't being done to a high enough standard.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> Right so it is now clear!
> 
> The bars are open because we can all go to the bar!
> 
> Or the cinema, or the gym, or wherever else we want as long as it is inside our own municipality!!


 No, supposedly no because you have to be going to or from work, a medical "thing" (pharmacy, appointment, emergency...), going to and from class, or an exam, food shopping and bla, bla, bla. Nothing about going to the gym, cinema, or even about going to see friends/ family but there will still be a restriction on numbers in groups of people getting together, who shouldn't be getting together anyway because they are not going to work, going to class etc etc
Madness!!


----------



## Roy C

baldilocks said:


> More foreign tourists bringing in more bugs to Spain than to Italy


Or possibly too many people socialising in big crowds still doing the hug and kiss greeting could also have something to do with it.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Roy C said:


> Or possibly too many people socialising in big crowds still doing the hug and kiss greeting could also have something to do with it.


I don't believe it myself. Of course some people do, but enough to make such a huge difference, no.


----------



## xabiaxica

Roy C said:


> Or possibly too many people socialising in big crowds still doing the hug and kiss greeting could also have something to do with it.


It doesn't need big crowds. 

It needs just one person to pass it on to just one other, & for them to pass to another etc. That can easily happen in a series of small gatherings. 

Neither is physical contact needed. You'd just have to be sitting near someone who is contagious & not wearing a mask. An unguarded cough or a sneeze. My allergies make me sneeze! They might not even know that they are infected. 


Most contagions in our area are from social gatherings rather than work related.


----------



## kaipa

Overall Spain's track and trace is poor. In Madrid Ayuso failed to focus on getting it working during the summer lull that is why Spain is doing badly. Having each autonomous region responsible for how it applies it has been a disaster. In UK nearly everyone I know has done a test for one reason or another and it's free. Here where I live you have to pay unless you have symptoms. I a friend of my son has a temperature and doesnt have a test appointment until Tuesday. So everyone in her class continues going to school until the result which will be the end of next week!! No wonder it is spreading.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiaxica said:


> It doesn't need big crowds.
> 
> It needs just one person to pass it on to just one other, & for them to pass to another etc. That can easily happen in a series of small gatherings.
> 
> Neither is physical contact needed. You'd just have to be sitting near someone who is contagious & not wearing a mask. An unguarded cough or a sneeze. My allergies make me sneeze! They might not even know that they are infected.
> 
> 
> Most contagions in our area are from social gatherings rather than work related.


Then why isn't contagion as high as Spain or Madrid and other focal points, in places like the UK where masks have not been obligatory?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> I a friend of my son has a temperature and doesn't have a test appointment until Tuesday. So everyone in her class continues going to school until the result which will be the end of next week!! No wonder it is spreading.


 Well, she's not supposed to be going to school and if you know that she is you should tell the school. You can do it as discreetly as you want, but she should not be going to school.If you 



Have symptoms
Have been in touch with people who have symptoms and are waiting for a test
Are waiting for the results of a test
You should not go to work or school.
Or anywhere!


----------



## kaipa

Pesky Wesky said:


> kaipa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I a friend of my son has a temperature and doesn't have a test appointment until Tuesday. So everyone in her class continues going to school until the result which will be the end of next week!! No wonder it is spreading.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, she's not supposed to be going to school and if you know that she is you should tell the school. You can do it as discreetly as you want, but she should not be going to school.If you
> 
> 
> 
> Have symptoms
> Have been in touch with people who have symptoms and are waiting for a test
> Are waiting for the results of a test
> You should not go to work or school.
> Or anywhere!
Click to expand...


She isnt going to classes but rest of class still goes because until they have result they wont quarantine class


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> She isnt going to classes but rest of class still goes because until they have result they wont quarantine class


 OK!
Thank goodness.
In my daughter's school one class was confined, back for 2 days and a father came to say his daughter, who had gone back with the rest of the class had tested positive. She'd gone to school whilst waiting for the results, whole class confined again


----------



## kaipa

Pesky Wesky said:


> kaipa said:
> 
> 
> 
> She isnt going to classes but rest of class still goes because until they have result they wont quarantine class
> 
> 
> 
> OK!
> Thank goodness.
> In my daughter's school one class was confined, back for 2 days and a father came to say his daughter, who had gone back with the rest of the class had tested positive. She'd gone to school whilst waiting for the results, whole class confined again
Click to expand...

That's my point. If it takes nearly a week for action to be taken because testing is slow how can they really control things?


----------



## Alcalaina

kaipa said:


> In UK nearly everyone I know has done a test for one reason or another and it's free.


Really? I thought you could only get a free test if you have symptoms, and even then you might have to drive to the other side of the country.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron.../get-a-test-to-check-if-you-have-coronavirus/


----------



## Roy C

xabiaxica said:


> It doesn't need big crowds.
> 
> It needs just one person to pass it on to just one other, & for them to pass to another etc. That can easily happen in a series of small gatherings.
> 
> Neither is physical contact needed. You'd just have to be sitting near someone who is contagious & not wearing a mask. An unguarded cough or a sneeze. My allergies make me sneeze! They might not even know that they are infected.
> 
> 
> Most contagions in our area are from social gatherings rather than work related.


I agree it is various ways of contagion that spreads it but as you say in your area 'most contagions are from social gatherings.''


----------



## kaipa

Alcalaina said:


> kaipa said:
> 
> 
> 
> In UK nearly everyone I know has done a test for one reason or another and it's free.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? I thought you could only get a free test if you have symptoms, and even then you might have to drive to the other side of the country.
> 
> https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron.../get-a-test-to-check-if-you-have-coronavirus/
Click to expand...

Yes that's right. But you just say you have a persistent cough or lack of taste and you will get a test. Doesnt mean you actually have symptoms. I know someone who travelled from Spain to uk last week and was worried about quarantine with her mother so just said she did feel well and had been in Spain and was tested
Gave her peace of mind.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> That's my point. If it takes nearly a week for action to be taken because testing is slow how can they really control things?


 That's not the case here.
Different tests have different costs and different protocols, but you don't have to wait normally for the test itself. You might have to wait for the results and whilst you wait you supposedly quarantine. That is what the parents of the little girl at my daughter's school didn't do, even though they were fully informed of the protocol.


----------



## Chopera

In my kids' school in Madrid any child with symptoms is sent home, along with their class, and have to quarantine. They take the children's temperature each time they enter the school, so they are fairly on top of the situation. Any children with symptoms can go to the local hospital for a test on the spot and the results usually come through a day or two later.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Chopera said:


> In my kids' school in Madrid any child with symptoms is sent home, along with their class, and have to quarantine. They take the children's temperature each time they enter the school, so they are fairly on top of the situation. Any children with symptoms can go to the local hospital for a test on the spot and the results usually come through a day or two later.


The problem with the child I mentioned was, unbelievably, with the parents, not the school...


----------



## Isobella

Alcalaina said:


> Really? I thought you could only get a free test if you have symptoms, and even then you might have to drive to the other side of the country.
> 
> https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron.../get-a-test-to-check-if-you-have-coronavirus/


Not sure if requirements have tightened recently but we had a test when we returned to UK from France. We did answer the online form truthfully that we had no symptoms. A friend had a free test last week before she went to see her new Grandchild. 
I did read today that the PCR for tests has been reduced which causes more false positives. Why would they do that


----------



## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> No, supposedly no because you have to be going to or from work, a medical "thing" (pharmacy, appointment, emergency...), going to and from class, or an exam, food shopping and bla, bla, bla. Nothing about going to the gym, cinema, or even about going to see friends/ family but there will still be a restriction on numbers in groups of people getting together, who shouldn't be getting together anyway because they are not going to work, going to class etc etc
> Madness!!


Those justifications are only needed to enter or leave an affected municipality.

If you stay in your own municipality, you can do whatever you like and go wherever you want without justification (as long as you wear a mask, don't exceed the maximum occupancy rules and don't gather in groups larger than 6).

Crazy, but that's how it is.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> Those justifications are only needed to enter or leave an affected municipality.
> 
> If you stay in your own municipality, you can do whatever you like and go wherever you want without justification (as long as you wear a mask, don't exceed the maximum occupancy rules and don't gather in groups larger than 6).
> 
> Crazy, but that's how it is.


 Thanks, that was the information I was missing.
So that's all clear now!!:lol::nod::wacko::wacko:


----------



## Allie-P

I live in La Cala, Mijas, a small seaside town, and I have been impressed by the mask wearing and obedience of the rules. Especially, after hearing from my children and British friends about the disobedience & goings-on in the UK.

However, I went out for dinner with my husband, last night and due to the wind ‘chill,’ we opted to sit indoors. The tables were appropriately social distanced.

There were a number of young people, about 8 ( I believe that 10 is the max allowed in Spain ?) seated at one table. There was a mixture of Spanish and Brits, probably, work colleagues. At each entry and exit of these youngsters, they were hugging and kissing. There was not a mask in sight - neither on entry- nor when moving around.

During the course of the evening, one of the Brit girls was getting up and going to various tables and doing the same kissing and hugging, by then the party had consumed a lot of drinks and La Cala being a small place, a lot of people know one another. 

Thank goodness, she didn’t know me, so I wasn’t advanced on.

We, occasionally, go out for lunch, summer and winter and are generally lucky enough to be able to eat outside.

I won’t be repeating the experience. I am old and want to hang on to what remains of my life.

It IS sad that young people can’t enjoy their lives as they did pre-Covid - but, apparently, some are still continuing as normal. I wonder if this is the problem in Madrid and the large cities. Perhaps, the drinking blocks out the fear of catching this terrible Virus.

It doesn’t for me !!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Allie-P said:


> It IS sad that young people can’t enjoy their lives as they did pre-Covid - but, apparently, some are still continuing as normal. I wonder if this is the problem in Madrid and the large cities. Perhaps, the drinking blocks out the fear of catching this terrible Virus.
> 
> It doesn’t for me !!


There are people in Madrid (I'm talking Comunidad de Madrid) who don't play by the rules, there always will be, but I really don't think it's a big problem. However, it's the only problem that people seem to see and latch on to.
I am surprised and a little shocked to tell the truth about the girl wandering from table to table meeting and greeting. I have been to a restaurant maybe 3 times since lockdown and the waiters were very on top of the situation and if not other clients would have told this girl that at the very least a mask was needed, but that really she should not be mixing with the other tables.
I do think people are getting fed up of not being able to do just what they want and more and more people are ready to criticise who ever they think is at fault - Sánchez, Fernando Simón, Ayuso, Trump....


----------



## Lynn R

Pesky Wesky said:


> There are people in Madrid (I'm talking Comunidad de Madrid) who don't play by the rules, there always will be, but I really don't think it's a big problem. However, it's the only problem that people seem to see and latch on to.
> I am surprised and a little shocked to tell the truth about the girl wandering from table to table meeting and greeting. I have been to a restaurant maybe 3 times since lockdown and the waiters were very on top of the situation and if not other clients would have told this girl that at the very least a mask was needed, but that really she should not be mixing with the other tables.
> I do think people are getting fed up of not being able to do just what they want and more and more people are ready to criticise who ever they think is at fault - Sánchez, Fernando Simón, Ayuso, Trump....


I think I posted somewhere on the forum that we had been to a local bar just after they were allowed to reopen, in the evening. We were shocked that people were wandering around to speak to others at neighbouring tables (although the tables themselves were well spaced) and getting very close to them. We finished our drinks and left quickly, and haven't been out in the evening since, only at lunchtime when people seem to be more aware of the need for distancing, maybe because less alcohol has been consumed.


----------



## Alcalaina

We go out in the evening once or twice a week and sit with friends at socially distanced tables outside in the park or square. People do move between tables and chat without masks, but the number of positive cases here is extremely low (only 18 since the beginning of March, no deaths). So I guess it depends on the incidence of the virus in your community and the amount of travel between towns. What's it like in Velez Malaga Lynn, have you nad many cases?


----------



## Lynn R

Alcalaina said:


> We go out in the evening once or twice a week and sit with friends at socially distanced tables outside in the park or square. People do move between tables and chat without masks, but the number of positive cases here is extremely low (only 18 since the beginning of March, no deaths). So I guess it depends on the incidence of the virus in your community and the amount of travel between towns. What's it like in Velez Malaga Lynn, have you nad many cases?


The figures here are a lot higher than they were during or just after the lockdown.

Our figures are published for the Vélez-Málaga municipality, which includes two pretty large towns in Vélez itself and Torre del Mar, plus all the smaller places along the coast between Mezquitilla and Chilches, plus some small inland villages. Total population of the municipality is just over 85,000 and the most recent report showed 324 active cases.

https://www.axarquiaplus.es/continu...s-curados-que-nuevos-contagios-en-la-comarca/

Most places around the Axarquia now seem to have higher numbers of cases than they did before the lockdown. Nerja currently has 88 active cases (with a population of just over 21,000) and before the lockdown they had very few. However, before the lockdown Rincón de la Victoria (closer to Málaga capital) had more cases than we did in Vélez with a population nearly half ours (47,000) and they now have 193 cases. So whatever they're doing they're going in the right direction, and we aren't.


----------



## xgarb

Alcalaina said:


> We go out in the evening once or twice a week and sit with friends at socially distanced tables outside in the park or square. People do move between tables and chat without masks, but the number of positive cases here is extremely low (only 18 since the beginning of March, no deaths). So I guess it depends on the incidence of the virus in your community and the amount of travel between towns. What's it like in Velez Malaga Lynn, have you nad many cases?


This is the problem. People think.. oh there's only a few cases here so I'm safe to hug and kiss all the people I know when I go out.

Went to a bar the other week just after the schools went back and there was a lady hugging and kissing everyone she knew. She was there with her two school age children. How does she know that the kids didn't bring back something from school, give it to her and now she is sharing it with everyone else? People don't get the concept of how outbreaks start. Maybe they just don't want to know any more.


----------



## Alcalaina

xgarb said:


> This is the problem. People think.. oh there's only a few cases here so I'm safe to hug and kiss all the people I know when I go out.
> 
> Went to a bar the other week just after the schools went back and there was a lady hugging and kissing everyone she knew. She was there with her two school age children. How does she know that the kids didn't bring back something from school, give it to her and now she is sharing it with everyone else? People don't get the concept of how outbreaks start. Maybe they just don't want to know any more.


That was very irresponsible of her. I hope someone gave her a telling-off! But Like everything in life you have to weigh up the risk. A quick chat from a few feet away out of doors is very low risk compared to hugging and kissing, and the vast majority of people know that.


----------



## Roy C

This is a useful link for Andalusia that updates every day. I just save it to my homepage on my phone to check it daily. I've noticed in most places the last seven days seems to be less than half of the previous fourteen days, which makes me think it's on the way down again.

https://www.juntadeandalucia.es/ins...anual/38674?CodOper=b3_2314&codConsulta=38674


----------



## Isobella

We are 8.3 per 100,000 in my area (that;s the UK) bur most stick to the rules.
There was an article in the Economist today re. Spain. Titled "Spains Politics has worsened the pandemic and the economy. In all countries the cases seem worse in crowded areas. 

Spain’s poisonous politics have worsened the pandemic and the economy
Its record is Europe’s worst on both counts

Europe
Oct 3rd 2020 edition


Oct 3rd 2020
MADRID

The infanta leonor hospital, wedged between a motorway and a suburban railway, serves the dense working-class districts of south-eastern Madrid. Last month 402 of its 480 doctors signed a letter to the regional government warning that the hospital was in a state of “pre-collapse”, with 54% of its 361 beds and all 27 intensive-care spaces occupied by covid-19 patients. With 784 cases per 100,000 people in the past fortnight, Madrid is currently the worst-hit region in Europe.

This is part of a broader national failure. On July 5th Spain’s prime minister, Pedro Sánchez, proclaimed that “we have defeated the virus and controlled the pandemic.” Yet the country is once again Europe’s coronavirus black spot (see chart


----------



## kaipa

I see on the news was showing people in Madrid basically just carrying on as normal with little regard for the call to stay at home. I noticed where I live that last night the bins were overflowing again which normally only happens in August with the influx of second home people coming for summer. Wonder if some folk have quickly left Madrid to get away from the lockdown


----------



## Lynn R

kaipa said:


> I see on the news was showing people in Madrid basically just carrying on as normal with little regard for the call to stay at home. I noticed where I live that last night the bins were overflowing again which normally only happens in August with the influx of second home people coming for summer. Wonder if some folk have quickly left Madrid to get away from the lockdown


There was an article in Diario Sur yesterday (can't link to it because of paywall) saying that Atocha station had been extremely busy on Friday with people travelling away from Madrid, Málaga Maria Zambrano station also very busy with arrivals from Madrid. A number of students and their families were quoted as saying that as classes were all going to be online and they would be confined to their accommodation, the parents had told their children to return home. Also teleworkers quoted as saying they had decided to leave Madrid and work elsewhere.


----------



## Isobella

Lynn R said:


> There was an article in Diario Sur yesterday (can't link to it because of paywall) saying that Atocha station had been extremely busy on Friday with people travelling away from Madrid, Málaga Maria Zambrano station also very busy with arrivals from Madrid. A number of students and their families were quoted as saying that as classes were all going to be online and they would be confined to their accommodation, the parents had told their children to return home. Also teleworkers quoted as saying they had decided to leave Madrid and work elsewhere.


yes I read that, well the bit I could read.

Seems about the same as other countries especially the Students. Grandson had his first lecture online this week. The Lecturer couldn’t get his zoom working for 20 mins, the lecture was one he gave last year it then cut out before the end. Grandson said if it had been his first year he would have gone home and taken a year off. At least he has his own place, the halls of residence are controlled by security guards.


----------



## xabiaxica

My daughter just told me about this. She has friends there. 

https://www.abc.es/espana/comunidad...0823_directo.html?ref=https://www.google.com/



> Coronavirus Valencia en directo: alerta en la Universidad Politécnica por un rebrote con un «alto nivel de positivos»


----------



## Allie-P

*Update on allowed gatherings*

I live in La Cala de Mijas which is a village between Fuengirola and Marbella. We are not on special alert. I have searched everywhere and can’t find the latest rules about who and how many we are permitted to mix with, both indoors and outside.

The latest, at Stage three of the lockdown, said 10 people inside and out !

I am familiar with the latest rules in the four parts of the UK- but can’t find my own!!

We are not inviting any friends indoors, or, going into other’s homes. We only meet with friends at socially distanced tables in bars and restaurants.....and of course, wear our masks whenever we are outside.

We don’t have any family living in Spain - it is just the two of us. Therefore, there is no temptation to flout the rules with adult kids and grandchildren - which we wouldn’t do anyway.

In fact, we have suggested that family should stay put in their respective countries at the moment. Although, I doubt they would be able to stay with us.

I can read Spanish so would be grateful for any link.

Thank you.


----------



## xabiaxica

Allie-P said:


> I live in La Cala de Mijas which is a village between Fuengirola and Marbella. We are not on special alert. I have searched everywhere and can’t find the latest rules about who and how many we are permitted to mix with, both indoors and outside.
> 
> The latest, at Stage three of the lockdown, said 10 people inside and out !
> 
> I am familiar with the latest rules in the four parts of the UK- but can’t find my own!!
> 
> We are not inviting any friends indoors, or, going into other’s homes. We only meet with friends at socially distanced tables in bars and restaurants.....and of course, wear our masks whenever we are outside.
> 
> We don’t have any family living in Spain - it is just the two of us. Therefore, there is no temptation to flout the rules with adult kids and grandchildren - which we wouldn’t do anyway.
> 
> In fact, we have suggested that family should stay put in their respective countries at the moment. Although, I doubt they would be able to stay with us.
> 
> I can read Spanish so would be grateful for any link.
> 
> Thank you.


I believe that it's still 10 apart from one small area (Casariche in Sevilla province) in your comunidad. 

Here's the BOJA. If in doubt about any 'special alert' in your town, contact the ayuntamiento. 

https://www.juntadeandalucia.es/boj...zHRbfv9n9e1MaLlwyU_aZ7oEiU3q2Zsm1G9ye02DByn18


----------



## Isobella

A bit of sense at last.

, https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...vernment-orders-lockdown-Spanish-capital.html


----------



## baldilocks

Isobella said:


> *A bit of sense* at last.
> 
> , https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...vernment-orders-lockdown-Spanish-capital.html


Politically driven stupidity!


----------



## Overandout

Victory for the negationists!!

The right wing president of the community of Madrid has taken the central government to court, claiming that the "lockdown" of Madrid ordered last week is against basic human rights and she has won.

The judges have overturned the lockdown with immediate effect!

I'm free!

I can go and spear the virus wherever I want!!!

Long live human rights!


----------



## 95995

Overandout said:


> Victory for the negationists!!
> 
> The right wing president of the community of Madrid has taken the central government to court, claiming that the "lockdown" of Madrid ordered last week is against basic human rights and she has won.
> 
> The judges have overturned the lockdown with immediate effect!
> 
> I'm free!
> 
> I can go and spear the virus wherever I want!!!
> 
> Long live human rights!


This actually happens all the time in France, though it is not because a particular politial party goes to Court and there French Constitution is relatively strong on huamn rights. This actually means that the Government has to declare a state of emergency (which they could at the moment perhaps get through the National Assembly, but likely not the Senate and not the Conseil d'Etat on current conditions).


----------



## Megsmum

EverHopeful said:


> This actually happens all the time in France, though it is not because a particular politial party goes to Court and there French Constitution is relatively strong on huamn rights. This actually means that the Government has to declare a state of emergency (which they could at the moment perhaps get through the National Assembly, but likely not the Senate and not the Conseil d'Etat on current conditions).


This is happening in the U.K. not so much taking government to court but local councils advising against local lockdowns based on local economies, whilst it’s a difficult decision if you are struggling to work, living on low or even moderate incomes and knowing the furlough scheme ends soon I can understand why people are anti lockdown

It’s a very difficult circle to square. I don’t know about the situation in Madrid and their reasons


----------



## Overandout

Well, the details and timings of this are very telling.

The court which has overturned the lockdown of Madrid is the court of Madrid (no conflict of interest there at all then).

But the National Supreme Court can and probably will reinstate the lockdown as soon as the appeal can get to that authority. But that won't be tomorrow of course.

So luckily for the rich Madrileños with houses on the coast and in the mountains outside of Madrid, this long weekend with the bank holiday Monday is just when there are no travel restrictions! 

How lucky is that?!


----------



## xgarb

Isobella said:


> A bit of sense at last.
> 
> , https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...vernment-orders-lockdown-Spanish-capital.html


They didn't rule on whether it's a good idea or not (patently is) just whether the health department had the authority.

So now we can look forward to all the people who don't want to know going off to the coast etc and spreading the infection hotspot countrywide.

Two weeks.. lets see if the field hospital makes another appearance.


----------



## xgarb

Isobella said:


> A bit of sense at last.
> 
> , https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...vernment-orders-lockdown-Spanish-capital.html


They didn't rule on whether it's a good idea or not (patently is) just whether the health department had the authority.

So now we can look forward to all the people who don't want to know going off to the coast etc and spreading the infection hotspot countrywide.

Two weeks.. lets see if the field hospital makes another appearance.


----------



## xabiaxica

Overandout said:


> Well, the details and timings of this are very telling.
> 
> The court which has overturned the lockdown of Madrid is the court of Madrid (no conflict of interest there at all then).
> 
> But the National Supreme Court can and probably will reinstate the lockdown as soon as the appeal can get to that authority. But that won't be tomorrow of course.
> 
> *So luckily for the rich Madrileños with houses on the coast and in the mountains outside of Madrid, this long weekend with the bank holiday Monday is just when there are no travel restrictions!
> 
> How lucky is that?!*


Not that we're cynical or anything...


----------



## Allie-P

xabiaxica said:


> I believe that it's still 10 apart from one small area (Casariche in Sevilla province) in your comunidad.
> 
> Here's the BOJA. If in doubt about any 'special alert' in your town, contact the ayuntamiento.
> 
> https://www.juntadeandalucia.es/boj...zHRbfv9n9e1MaLlwyU_aZ7oEiU3q2Zsm1G9ye02DByn18


Many thanks for your reply, Xabiaxica.


----------



## Overandout

xabiaxica said:


> Not that we're cynical or anything...




Me? Cynical???


----------



## kaipa

I am beginning to despair with Spanish politics. It is clear now that the Madrid debacle is all about politics and nothing to do with people's wellbeing. Also the Pablo Iglesias "scandal" reeks of political meddling. The courts and media are clearly subject to shadowy figures attempting to bring the government down. I thought Spain had flushed these people out of the system but clearly not.


----------



## Overandout

kaipa said:


> I am beginning to despair with Spanish politics. It is clear now that the Madrid debacle is all about politics and nothing to do with people's wellbeing. Also the Pablo Iglesias "scandal" reeks of political meddling. The courts and media are clearly subject to shadowy figures attempting to bring the government down. I thought Spain had flushed these people out of the system but clearly not.


I can get quite annoyed by these things too, like the differences in bureaucracy which defy what we se as logic. But the way I see it, as immigrants we face one of three choices.

1, Leave.
2, Stay and hide away from it in expat ghettos with no real acknowledgement of the "real" Spain.
3, Stay. But read about it, try to understand it, and keep calm about it by accepting that this is what makes Spain not only a different country, but also a different culture.


----------



## xabiaxica

Overandout said:


> I can get quite annoyed by these things too, like the differences in bureaucracy which defy what we se as logic. But the way I see it, as immigrants we face one of three choices.
> 
> 1, Leave.
> 2, Stay and hide away from it in expat ghettos with no real acknowledgement of the "real" Spain.
> 3, Stay. But read about it, try to understand it, and keep calm about it by accepting that this is what makes Spain not only a different country, but also a different culture.


4, Become a Spanish national & VOTE.


----------



## kaipa

Overandout said:


> kaipa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am beginning to despair with Spanish politics. It is clear now that the Madrid debacle is all about politics and nothing to do with people's wellbeing. Also the Pablo Iglesias "scandal" reeks of political meddling. The courts and media are clearly subject to shadowy figures attempting to bring the government down. I thought Spain had flushed these people out of the system but clearly not.
> 
> 
> 
> I can get quite annoyed by these things too, like the differences in bureaucracy which defy what we se as logic. But the way I see it, as immigrants we face one of three choices.
> 
> 1, Leave.
> 2, Stay and hide away from it in expat ghettos with no real acknowledgement of the "real" Spain.
> 3, Stay. But read about it, try to understand it, and keep calm about it by accepting that this is what makes Spain not only a different country, but also a different culture.
Click to expand...

I agree. I know in some way the same things happen in UK but it's just the sheer audacity and blatant wrongdoing of some people that depresses me. Take the Inglesia thing: this is a man whose private conversations and photos were stolen by third party from a colleague's phone. These were then handed to a media outlet in the hope they would release them. They were cautious and eventually didnt with Inglesias then holding the SIM card. The SIM card was not his and he didnt return it to his colleague( well it did have private stuff about him!) Now this is one of the crimes he is accused of!!. And for this he is meant to resign according to PP and go to prison. Its ridiculous


----------



## Overandout

xabiaxica said:


> 4, Become a Spanish national & VOTE.


With the caveat that nothing (systematic) will change....


----------



## xabiaxica

Overandout said:


> With the caveat that nothing (systematic) will change....


There is that...


----------



## xabiaxica

:focus:

So, how is it going in your area? 

Do you follow contagion figures at all? 

I post them on a local FB group each time there's an update - so daily apart from weekends - for the Comunidad Valenciana, Marina Alta health authority & of course for our town, Jávea. The two latter are only updated twice a week. 


Both in Jávea, & the Marina Alta, new contagions, hospitalisations & deaths have slowed right down in the past few weeks - which of course is great news for us.


----------



## Alcalaina

xabiaxica said:


> :focus:
> 
> So, how is it going in your area?
> 
> Do you follow contagion figures at all?
> 
> I post them on a local FB group each time there's an update - so daily apart from weekends - for the Comunidad Valenciana, Marina Alta health authority & of course for our town, Jávea. The two latter are only updated twice a week.
> 
> 
> Both in Jávea, & the Marina Alta, new contagions, hospitalisations & deaths have slowed right down in the past few weeks - which of course is great news for us.


Still very low down here in the bottom left-hand corner of the country. Six positive cases detected in Alcalá a couple of weeks ago (supposedly emanating from a nursery school) but no hospitalisations. So that's 18 in total since it all started. More on the coast I think (lots more visitors there of course).


----------



## Lynn R

It is reported today that in Málaga province the number of new cases per day has declined from an average of 500 to 180.

https://www.diariosur.es/malaga-capital/provincia-malaga-pasado-20201008194648-nt.html

And more locally, according to this report published yesterday my town of Vélez-Málaga currently has 71 active cases, but it was 324 a couple of weeks ago. That seems almost too good to be true.

https://www.axarquiaplus.es/salud-notifica-19-nuevos-positivos-por-coronavirus-en-la-comarca/

I caused a bit of a kerfuffle at our local swimming pool this morning when I called in to book my slots for next week - the automatic temperature testing machine turned red and kept saying "test again". A staff member had to bring a hand held temperature gauge over and use that - apparently the problem was that my temperature was too low, only 34 point something. No idea why, but as I said to him, it's better than being too high! I am SO enjoying being able to swim again, our municipal pools re-opened on 1 October (with precautions in place, of course).


----------



## Overandout

kaipa said:


> I agree. I know in some way the same things happen in UK but it's just the sheer audacity and blatant wrongdoing of some people that depresses me. Take the Inglesia thing: this is a man whose private conversations and photos were stolen by third party from a colleague's phone. These were then handed to a media outlet in the hope they would release them. They were cautious and eventually didnt with Inglesias then holding the SIM card. The SIM card was not his and he didnt return it to his colleague( well it did have private stuff about him!) Now this is one of the crimes he is accused of!!. And for this he is meant to resign according to PP and go to prison. Its ridiculous


Yes, but you've got to stand back and take a balanced view. The left were quick to criticise Rodrigo Rato for his actions with the release of shares of Bankia and call for his head on a plate, but he's just been cleared of all charges... 
It's politics in Spain, each side taking pot shots and snipes at the other at any opportunity...

And for once this is why we have a "justified" off topic discussion; because in Madrid Covid is a political issue more than a health issue.


----------



## Alcalaina

Overandout said:


> Yes, but you've got to stand back and take a balanced view. The left were quick to criticise Rodrigo Rato for his actions with the release of shares of Bankia and call for his head on a plate, but he's just been cleared of all charges...
> It's politics in Spain, each side taking pot shots and snipes at the other at any opportunity...
> 
> And for once this is why we have a "justified" off topic discussion; because in Madrid Covid is a political issue more than a health issue.


Rato hasn't been cleared of all charges. He wa cleared of one charge of defrauding investors. He's still serving time for embezzlement and using company credit cards for private use. Not exactly the picture of innocence.


----------



## Overandout

Alcalaina said:


> Rato hasn't been cleared of all charges. He wa cleared of one charge of defrauding investors. He's still serving time for embezzlement and using company credit cards for private use. Not exactly the picture of innocence.


My example was the charges of his fraudulent activity in the public listing of Bankia on the stock exchange and he has been cleared of those charges.

He may be guilty of different crimes, yes, but fortunately the justice system doesn't take that into account as each charge is made independently and on its own merits.


----------



## xgarb

State of Emergency imposed on Madrid - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54478320

I think this is what PP wanted. They knew that the lockdown was needed but didn't want to admit it. So now they get to look like the 'good guys' to their voters by 'fighting for their rights' but without the increase in deaths that the this would have brought.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xgarb said:


> State of Emergency imposed on Madrid - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54478320
> 
> I think this is what PP wanted. They knew that the lockdown was needed but didn't want to admit it. So now they get to look like the 'good guys' to their voters by 'fighting for their rights' but without the increase in deaths that the this would have brought.


Not so sure this is what the PP actually wanted, but yes, they can turn it to their favour by making the the government and more to the point Iglesias who is really hated, into the despots and villains of the plot.


----------



## Lynn R

A very different decision from the Superior Court in Andalucia which has ratified the local restrictions on mobiity imposed in certain locations:-

https://www.malagahoy.es/andalucia/...vilidad-casariche-almodovar_0_1508849400.html


----------



## Alcalaina

Overandout said:


> My example was the charges of his fraudulent activity in the public listing of Bankia on the stock exchange and he has been cleared of those charges.
> 
> He may be guilty of different crimes, yes, but fortunately the justice system doesn't take that into account as each charge is made independently and on its own merits.


OK, but to date Pablo Iglesias hasn't been found guilty of anything, so your earlier comment to Kaipa about taking a "balanced view" is a bit hollow. There is no balance between guilt and innocence.

Anyway, back to topic ...


----------



## Ifn

Overandout said:


> Yes, but you've got to stand back and take a balanced view. The left were quick to criticise Rodrigo Rato for his actions with the release of shares of Bankia and call for his head on a plate, but he's just been cleared of all charges...
> It's politics in Spain, each side taking pot shots and snipes at the other at any opportunity...
> 
> And for once this is why we have a "justified" off topic discussion; because in Madrid Covid is a political issue more than a health issue.


Oh yes. It’s the war of the worms here in Madrid


----------



## Eliora

xabiaxica said:


> :focus:
> 
> So, how is it going in your area?
> 
> Do you follow contagion figures at all?
> 
> I post them on a local FB group each time there's an update - so daily apart from weekends - for the Comunidad Valenciana, Marina Alta health authority & of course for our town, Jávea. The two latter are only updated twice a week.
> 
> 
> Both in Jávea, & the Marina Alta, new contagions, hospitalisations & deaths have slowed right down in the past few weeks - which of course is great news for us.


In our area the number of cases have doubled per week what they were in mid September, growing rapidly! They are a lot higher than they were pre shut down. Few people wear masks or social distance. I'm in North West France. 

The popular consenses here is that we don't have a Covid problem so no need to be fraidy cats. 

IMO this attitude is complete insanity. They aren't thinking in terms of prevention of widespread deaths from a Pandemic they are only focusing on self centered egotistic desires.


----------



## Tigerlillie

Eliora said:


> In our area the number of cases have doubled per week what they were in mid September, growing rapidly! They are a lot higher than they were pre shut down. Few people wear masks or social distance.* I'm in North West France.*
> 
> The popular consenses here is that we don't have a Covid problem so no need to be fraidy cats.
> 
> IMO this attitude is complete insanity. They aren't thinking in terms of prevention of widespread deaths from a Pandemic they are only focusing on self centered egotistic desires.


Yes and so am I. Morbihan to be precise and we were the worst affected dept in Brittany.
I concur that cases have risen, but I have to disagree with your statement 'Few people wear masks or social distance' because that's simply not true in the area I live and I live quite rural. The nearest city to me is Rennes and they've been put on red alert with extra restrictions but I think that may have something to do with the University Campuses. In the last couple of weeks I have actually ventured further than usual, although, not to the City and as far as I saw people were wearing masks and generally respecting the rules that are in force.


----------



## 95995

It looks like the virus may well be with us until late spring, so perhaps another 6 months. Hopefully, though, cases in the worst affected areas (mostly cities and large towns) will reduce, if not, I suspect a lot of people will stop being so careful.

I find it very sad that many people are so keen to scapegoat university students and young people generally.

@Eliora - are you really going to stay at home in your apartment for another 6-7 months?


----------



## Megsmum

EverHopeful said:


> It looks like the virus may well be with us until late spring, so perhaps another 6 months. Hopefully, though, cases in the worst affected areas (mostly cities and large towns) will reduce, if not, I suspect a lot of people will stop being so careful.
> 
> I find it very sad that many people are so keen to scapegoat university students and young people generally.
> 
> @Eliora - are you really going to stay at home in your apartment for another 6-7 months?


I’ve said from the get go we have to live with it, protect ourselves and our own, do the best we as individuals can. I’ve no intentions of locking myself away for another 6|7|9 months.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

EverHopeful said:


> It looks like the virus may well be with us until late spring, so perhaps another 6 months. Hopefully, though, cases in the worst affected areas (mostly cities and large towns) will reduce, if not, I suspect a lot of people will stop being so careful.


 In Spain lots of smaller places have been hit as well and have been subject to tighter restrictions than the rest of spain for example Peralta 5,900, Falces y Funes, (2.300 y 2.400) these in the north, Santoña 11,000, also in the north, but different area, Casariche of just over 5,000 in Sevilla... 

It really does seem to strike with no pattern in Spain.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Megsmum said:


> I’ve said from the get go we have to live with it, protect ourselves and our own, do the best we as individuals can. I’ve no intentions of locking myself away for another 6|7|9 months.


 Neither am I.
But I'm not living life as I did before either... Much more restricted


----------



## Isobella

Pesky Wesky said:


> Neither am I.
> But I'm not living life as I did before either... Much more restricted


My life is much quieter. Lots of events cancelled. Also some of my friends have coronaphobia.


----------



## Megsmum

Overandout said:


> Yes, but you've got to stand back and take a balanced view. The left were quick to criticise Rodrigo Rato for his actions with the release of shares of Bankia and call for his head on a plate, but he's just been cleared of all charges...
> It's politics in Spain, each side taking pot shots and snipes at the other at any opportunity...
> 
> And for once this is why we have a "justified" off topic discussion; because in Madrid Covid is a political issue more than a health issue.


As this thing progresses and until we have an effective vaccine that people will trust, covid will become more politicised across the globe... most countries will be now eyeing up the next set of elections.


----------



## Ifn

Pesky Wesky said:


> In Spain lots of smaller places have been hit as well and have been subject to tighter restrictions than the rest of spain for example Peralta 5,900, Falces y Funes, (2.300 y 2.400) these in the north, Santoña 11,000, also in the north, but different area, Casariche of just over 5,000 in Sevilla...
> 
> It really does seem to strike with no pattern in Spain.


If they did more contact tracing then it would be easier to understand what’s going on. For example...maybe there were some largish fiestas in these small areas. If they did more (any) contact tracing then people would feel a bit more accountable and in control of their choices. It wouldn’t be all about the whims of the politicians. 

What happened to the contact tracing app? It sounds like it just fell apart. Was it a waste of time and money and poorly designed? Did it go the way of the “800.000” thousand jobs that are being promised?


----------



## Ifn

Isobella said:


> My life is much quieter. Lots of events cancelled. Also some of my friends have coronaphobia.


That sounds like a good thing to have.


----------



## 95995

Pesky Wesky said:


> In Spain lots of smaller places have been hit as well and have been subject to tighter restrictions than the rest of spain for example Peralta 5,900, Falces y Funes, (2.300 y 2.400) these in the north, Santoña 11,000, also in the north, but different area, Casariche of just over 5,000 in Sevilla...
> 
> It really does seem to strike with no pattern in Spain.


It doesn't just strike cities in France either, though cities are overall worst hit (though certainly not all of them) and it seems contract tracing in cities can be more difficult. Has to be said though, that France is a month or two behind Spain.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiaxica said:


> Yes.
> 
> My understanding is that anyone who tests positive is counted as a 'case'.


 A positive is a case as far as I know.
However,the tests being done and the people being tested changes as the pandenia goes on. Different tests are being done (not PCR) and not everyone that was being tested in the beginning are tested now.
In my husband's school (FP Madrid capital) if someone has symptoms and is sent home or if someone calls in to say they tested positive they have to inform the local health authority and *they* decide what to do (not the school) which could be confine the class, test everyone in the class or not. It could be confine case reported, test close contacts, or not even that - it depends...


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> A positive is a case as far as I know.
> However,the tests being done and the people being tested changes as the pandenia goes on. Different tests are being done (not PCR) and not everyone that was being tested in the beginning are tested now.
> In my husband's school (FP Madrid capital) if someone has symptoms and is sent home or if someone calls in to say they tested positive they have to inform the local health authority and *they* decide what to do (not the school) which could be confine the class, test everyone in the class or not. It could be confine case reported, test close contacts, or not even that - it depends...


The figures published on the Valencia health authority say PCR+, so I imagine that's what they are actually recording - but I get what you say about different kinds of tests.


----------



## snikpoh

EverHopeful said:


> But what about you?


My last test was also negative


----------



## 95995

snikpoh said:


> My last test was also negative


And how often are you getting tested?

Not that I really care, it's just that so many people are really good at saying what others should do, but don't actually do it themselves, or only go so far towards doing it.

Frankly, though, I doubt Spain has the resources for everyone to get tested every few days (France certainly doesn't) - and I'm not at all sure it is the optimal way to use scant resources.


----------



## Hepa

Here we have only had a few cases of the virus, caught from persons visiting the island and I believe restricted to two families, and I am not aware of any deaths. 

The majority of people wear face masks, but when I am out and about, I see many that do not. 

The covid restrictions at the moment are not enforced, in our area we have only one policeman, I haven't seen him fo a long time, the next town doesn't have and has never had any, the other municipality has a few policia local. 

The Guardia Civil are efficient, but I gain the impression that numbers are few, and they cover the entire island.

So those that do not comply are usually not punished.


----------



## Megsmum

Lynn R said:


> But isn't it still important to know that they have tested positive, because although they are not sick and may not even get sick, they can still transmit the virus to other people who may get sick?


Again, from the get go , I do sound sanctimonious LOL, I stated that it’s impossible to test everyone, you can be tested today and be negative and next week have covid. People in direct line of fire are tested weekly, for a reason.... a negative can quickly change to a positive. I’ve had two tests on admittance to hospital and one four days later before transfer to another both negative then another three days later on discharge again negative. I may well have covid now without knowing!

I suspect, it’s an opinion, there are millions across the globe trotting around with covid who have none to mild symptoms.. slight cough bit of a temperature, think they’ve got a slight cold, plenty with absolutely no symptoms whatsoever who are covid positive.

As with most pandemic disease epidemiologists will be beavering away trying to establish numbers, causes and affects but it won’t be until post covid that the true numbers etc will be known.

Wash your hands
Wear a mask where you have to
Keep socially distant


----------



## xabiaxica

Non-Spain specific posts moved to the general coronavirus thread in La Tasca


----------



## Lynn R

Salvador Illa has said today that the Government is discussing whether to try to introduce a new State of Alarm to include restrictions on mobility.

https://www.elmundo.es/espana/2020/10/20/5f8eb51421efa091478b4643.html


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Seems like things are out of control both here and in the UK.
The Spanish government wants to speak to officials in the comunidades to know their views on introducing a State of Alarm again, the reason being that they can then introduce curfews as they have in other countries/ cities, Paris for one. A curfew though needs a State of Alarm to be introduced first.
Boris is introducing local "lockdowns" (more like restrictions than lockdowns, but lockdown is more dramatic)
Obviously panic is setting in with the threat of flu being added to the mix and Christmas just around the corner.
The States have Halloween, elections, Thanksgiving and Christmas to contend with, but with a bit of bleach, all should be ok, so no worries there


----------



## Overandout

Madrid's current imposed state of alarm ends on Saturday and my understanding is that the central government can't unilaterally extend it without going through congress.

Obviously Trumpeta will not do anything herself (or rather Casado will not tell her to, and she only does, or doesn't do what he says), so it makes sense to go to a nationwide state of alarm from a Madrid perspective.

I wonder how tempted they are to go to a state of emergency after the problems last time with constitutional challenges to the powers under the state of alarm? It would be a certain death for the socialist coalition, even probably triggering a vote of no confidence from the right, but it might be what Spain needs.


----------



## baldilocks

I hope they don't work on rules per Autonomous Communities, because Andalucía is quite large and only some Provinces have increasing cases. By Province would be much more reasonable. We have booked out Christmas and New Year holiday away but it is within our province.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> I wonder how tempted they are to go to a state of emergency after the problems last time with constitutional challenges to the powers under the state of alarm? It would be a certain death for the socialist coalition, even probably triggering a vote of no confidence from the right, but it might be what Spain needs.


So, if there's a vote of no confidence from the right, where does that leave us? How would the situation arising from a vote of no confidence make the governing of Spain better?


----------



## 95995

Overandout said:


> Madrid's current imposed state of alarm ends on Saturday and my understanding is that the central government can't unilaterally extend it without going through congress.
> 
> Obviously Trumpeta will not do anything herself (or rather Casado will not tell her to, and she only does, or doesn't do what he says), so it makes sense to go to a nationwide state of alarm from a Madrid perspective.
> 
> I wonder how tempted they are to go to a state of emergency after the problems last time with constitutional challenges to the powers under the state of alarm? It would be a certain death for the socialist coalition, even probably triggering a vote of no confidence from the right, but it might be what Spain needs.


According to an article I read in El Pais earlier today, they are currently 'studying' introducing a state of alarm. Doesn't look too promising.
https://elpais.com/espana/2020-10-20/el-gobierno-estudia-declarar-el-estado-de-alarma-en-toda-espana-para-imponer-el-toque-de-queda.html?ssm=FB_CM&fbclid=IwAR1B5clR4R05BNz2-zuxAY1dCTT79gD76lLJw5Yeke-5tc9ZGAT_wOpNabk


----------



## Pesky Wesky

EverHopeful said:


> According to an article I read in El Pais earlier today, they are currently 'studying' introducing a state of alarm. Doesn't look too promising.
> https://elpais.com/espana/2020-10-2...z2-zuxAY1dCTT79gD76lLJw5Yeke-5tc9ZGAT_wOpNabk


Overnad Out is right, there is a State of Alarm in place in Madrid at the moment. It finishes at 16:37 Saturday 24 de October. You wouldn't know though. It's nothing like the State of Alarm that was in place before. They are studying putting a second in place.


----------



## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> So, if there's a vote of no confidence from the right, where does that leave us? How would the situation arising from a vote of no confidence make the governing of Spain better?


Sorry, I've expressed myself terribly!

I don't mean that the vote of no confidence might be what Spain needs, I mean that the state of emergency might be what it needs!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> Sorry, I've expressed myself terribly!
> 
> I don't mean that the vote of no confidence might be what Spain needs, I mean that the state of emergency might be what it needs!


 Ahhh, ok.
I am famous for misunderstanding posts, so maybe it's me, but you did leave me wondering there 
Personally, as a medical measure I think we need to go on a real lockdown like we were on in March for at least 2 weeks to try to "clear the air" before Christmas. I can't imagine that people are going to observe any government indications over Christmas and don't forget that here it will all go on until the 6th of January and therefore figures need to go down before these dates as they will surely go up during and after.
What will happen to all the businesses that have to close down though I don't know.


----------



## kaipa

I imagine a second lockdown will be different from the first in that schools will stay open and certain businesses will still run although I imagine hospitalities will close. . More like curfews being introduced first


----------



## Alinaga

Yesterday, there was a line in the Spanish TV news (RTVE) that Spain will get about 3mln doses of vaccines in December. However, I could not found any details about it in the Spanish media today (I read El Pais, El Mundo and Informacion Alicante).
May be somebody has come across more information?


----------



## Overandout

Alinaga said:


> Yesterday, there was a line in the Spanish TV news (RTVE) that Spain will get about 3mln doses of vaccines in December. However, I could not found any details about it in the Spanish media today (I read El Pais, El Mundo and Informacion Alicante).
> May be somebody has come across more information?


https://www.lasexta.com/noticias/na...e-junio_202010205f8ecd313a670a0001d0d0bc.html


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> I imagine a second lockdown will be different from the first in that schools will stay open and certain businesses will still run although I imagine hospitalities will close. . More like curfews being introduced first


 Exactly, not a lockdown at all really, like Madrid is living now. Everybody's going to work, to school and out in the evening. 

What is the point?


A real lockdown with deserted streets and no contact _might_ have some impact. Phaffing around with reduced number of people in bars and little else is not going to get us anywhere.


----------



## fhanrah

Our 2nd home is San Luis de Sabinillas {Manilva}. Is there any web site where you can get an up to date information on covid-19 cases in your area


----------



## tebo53

To be implemented "as soon as possible"









BREAKING: Spain's Costa Blanca to get night-time curfew 'as soon as possible'. - Olive Press News Spain


VALENCIAN President, Ximo Puig, has today(October 22) told trade unions, business leaders and political parties that a night-time curfew will be




www.google.com





Steve


----------



## Overandout

Looks like at least Madrid will get a curfew to replace the state of alarm tomorrow.

Ayuso has said that she wants Sanchez to enact the measure nationwide, but it looks like that won't happen so Trumpeta will have to do it herself in the Madrid Community.

This means that the residents of the municipalities which are currently confined will be able to travel freely once again, but (assuming they stay in the community) will have to be off the streets by midnight, or they could just go somewhere where there is no curfew….

So, in short, as of Saturday, residents of Madrid can go where they like, and private party goers will not be able to leave halfway through the party, being obliged to stay until 6.00am.


----------



## Alcalaina

Overandout said:


> Vacuna coronavirus: El Gobierno compra 31 millones de dosis de vacunas que llegarán entre diciembre y junio


AstraZeneca - that's one of the EU contracts then, being developed in Oxford. It hasn't finished its clinical trials yet. They had a panic moment when one of the subjects died this week, but it turns out he was on the placebo not the actual vaccine.


----------



## DonMarco

fhanrah said:


> Our 2nd home is San Luis de Sabinillas {Manilva}. Is there any web site where you can get an up to date information on covid-19 cases in your area


Informe COVID-19 coronavirus en Andalucía. Consejería de Salud y Familias. Junta de Andalucía

Navigate to the last map at the bottom of the page and select your location from the drop down menu.


----------



## kaipa

Looks like a State of Alarm will be called later today


----------



## Alcalaina

In Andalucia as of yesterday you must wear a mask at all times, even when practicing sport or sitting at a table outside a bar or restaurant. You can only remove it while eating or drinking.


----------



## Lynn R

And from next Monday the Junta de Andalucia has announced that travel into and out of the city of Granada and its metropolitan area will be permitted for essential reasons only.









La Junta confina desde el lunes el área metropolitana de Granada


El Gobierno andaluz regula su toque de queda, que deberá ser refrendado por un juez si no hay estado de alarma




www.malagahoy.es


----------



## DonMarco

Alcalaina said:


> In Andalucia as of yesterday you must wear a mask at all times, even when practicing sport or sitting at a table outside a bar or restaurant. You can only remove it while eating or drinking.


According to Sur, the mask rule for practicing individual sport only applies in aresas with large number of people.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> Looks like a State of Alarm will be called later today


Not in Madrid!


----------



## kaipa

No, in Madrid they are actually extending bar opening hours. Presumably they dont feel enough people have Covid!!!


----------



## xabiaxica

The curfew in the Valencia region kicks in at 1am tonight









Toque de queda en la Comunitat Valenciana: confinados de 00.00 a 06.00 horas


Sanidad restringe reuniones sociales, venta de alcohol, consumo en bares y el horario de parques y jardines




www.lasprovincias.es


----------



## xabiaxica

President Sanchez has announced a new State of Emergency which the govt wants to continue until May 2021.

This doesn't mean that we're all in lockdown again, but that individual comunidades have the legal power to enforce measures such as curfews, local lockdowns etc.

Coronavirus España: el Gobierno quiere alargar el estado de alarma hasta el 9 de mayo


----------



## Alcalaina

Full details in English.









Spanish prime minister approves new state of alarm with plans to keep it in place until May


The new decree gives regional governments the option to prohibit travel in and out of their territories unless it is justified, as well as imposing an obligatory nationwide curfew between 11pm and 6am




english.elpais.com


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiaxica said:


> President Sanchez has announced a new State of Emergency which the govt wants to continue until May 2021.
> 
> This doesn't mean that we're all in lockdown again, but that individual comunidades have the legal power to enforce measures such as curfews, local lockdowns etc.
> 
> Coronavirus España: el Gobierno quiere alargar el estado de alarma hasta el 9 de mayo


It's also a way of avoiding that judges can make decisions about whether measures are undemocratic or not.
The present measures may help a little, but they are not enough. Too many recommendations, not enough laws and enforcement of laws. It seems the Spanish government, like many others, are just hoping the economy and health systems can hang on (now by the fingetips and after Christmas likely by fingernails) until the holy grail = a vaccination has been found.


----------



## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> It's also a way of avoiding that judges can make decisions about whether measures are undemocratic or not.
> The present measures may help a little, but they are not enough. Too many recommendations, not enough laws and enforcement of laws. It seems the Spanish government, like many others, are just hoping the economy and health systems can hang on (now by the fingetips and after Christmas likely by fingernails) until the holy grail = a vaccination has been found.


It's a way of avoiding having to vote on renewing it every two weeks, with the government having to do deals with other parties to get their support - not ideal.

I think the curfew is a good move as there is a lot of evidence that the virus is spread amongst young people out socialising, they don't realise they have it but then go on to infect other people. The regions can adjust the timing by an hour either way but they can't avoid doing it. It also seems sensible to be able to restrict movement between regions, if necessary.

I'm assuming it will be at least a year before a vaccine is widely available. You say these measures aren't enough; what else do you think the government should do in the meantime? What laws should they introduce?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> It's a way of avoiding having to vote on renewing it every two weeks, with the government having to do deals with other parties to get their support - not ideal.
> 
> I think the curfew is a good move as there is a lot of evidence that the virus is spread amongst young people out socialising, they don't realise they have it but then go on to infect other people. The regions can adjust the timing by an hour either way but they can't avoid doing it. It also seems sensible to be able to restrict movement between regions, if necessary.
> 
> I'm assuming it will be at least a year before a vaccine is widely available. You say these measures aren't enough; what else do you think the government should do in the meantime? What laws should they introduce?





> It's a way of avoiding having to vote on renewing it every two weeks, with the government having to do deals with other parties to get their support - not ideal.


That too. but what I said about the judges is also true.

I have said in previous posts; total lockdown. Easier to police and wider and better results - no contact no infection.
The measures we have now allow everyone to carry on as before (going to work, shopping, have a coffee in a bar) except that you can't go out after 10:00, 11:00, 12:00 depending on where you are and that you'll be wearing a mask. I am not an expert, but I can't see that these measures will make a notable difference.
You say that "there is a lot of evidence that the virus is spread amongst young people out socialising". There is also a lot of evidence that family gatherings of adults - uncles, cousins, mums and dads are responsible for cases of contagion. The attitude of some young people leaves a lot to be desired. The same can be said of a lot of supposedly mature older people.
I have also said that I have no ideas about how to solve the economic problems that would arise from a total lockdown, so don't ask me that one! I am a teacher, not a politician after all


----------



## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> That too. but what I said about the judges is also true.
> 
> I have said in previous posts; total lockdown. Easier to police and wider and better results - no contact no infection.
> The measures we have now allow everyone to carry on as before (going to work, shopping, have a coffee in a bar) except that you can't go out after 10:00, 11:00, 12:00 depending on where you are and that you'll be wearing a mask. I am not an expert, but I can't see that these measures will make a notable difference.
> You say that "there is a lot of evidence that the virus is spread amongst young people out socialising". There is also a lot of evidence that family gatherings of adults - uncles, cousins, mums and dads are responsible for cases of contagion. The attitude of some young people leaves a lot to be desired. The same can be said of a lot of supposedly mature older people.
> I have also said that I have no ideas about how to solve the economic problems that would arise from a total lockdown, so don't ask me that one! I am a teacher, not a politician after all


You just can't lock people in their homes for a year or more, which is what might happen if you wait for a vaccine to be universally available. It's not just the economic consequences, there's all the psychological and emotional damage, people avoiding seeking medical treatment for other conditions, kids losing out on their education, etc.

Maybe we've all got a bit blasé, especially in areas like mine with hardly any cases. You have to shock the population into taking safety measures more seriously, and I think this latest move will go some way towards doing that.


----------



## MataMata

The regional government of Valencia has introduced new restrictions in response to the increasing infection rates of Covid-19.
The curfew restriction applies:

from midnight and ends at 6am each day,
social meetings are limited to 6 people,
parks to close at 10pm, and
no sale of alcohol between 10pm and 8am, except in hotels and restaurants.
You cannot be out and about, even in a car, during these hours, unless:

you need medical assistance,
you are visiting someone who is your dependent,
or you are travelling to work.

Spanish prime minister approves new state of alarm with plans to keep it in place until May


----------



## Lynn R

Pesky Wesky said:


> That too. but what I said about the judges is also true.
> 
> I have said in previous posts; total lockdown. Easier to police and wider and better results - no contact no infection.
> The measures we have now allow everyone to carry on as before (going to work, shopping, have a coffee in a bar) except that you can't go out after 10:00, 11:00, 12:00 depending on where you are and that you'll be wearing a mask. I am not an expert, but I can't see that these measures will make a notable difference.
> You say that "there is a lot of evidence that the virus is spread amongst young people out socialising". There is also a lot of evidence that family gatherings of adults - uncles, cousins, mums and dads are responsible for cases of contagion. The attitude of some young people leaves a lot to be desired. The same can be said of a lot of supposedly mature older people.
> I have also said that I have no ideas about how to solve the economic problems that would arise from a total lockdown, so don't ask me that one! I am a teacher, not a politician after all


There was an article in Diario Sur a few days ago (unfortunately I can't post a link because of the paywall) saying that only 3% of new cases since the de-escalation period began have been traced to contact in bars or restaurants, but that family gatherings were responsible for 40%. Like yourself I can't see that the curfew will make much difference to the amount of contagion, although it will make times even harder for businesses in the hospitality sector.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> You just can't lock people in their homes for a year or more, which is what might happen if you wait for a vaccine to be universally available. It's not just the economic consequences, there's all the psychological and emotional damage, people avoiding seeking medical treatment for other conditions, kids losing out on their education, etc.
> 
> Maybe we've all got a bit blasé, especially in areas like mine with hardly any cases. You have to shock the population into taking safety measures more seriously, and I think this latest move will go some way towards doing that.


Well, I didn't say for a year! And I didn't say *anything about waiting for a vaccine*. Not like you to distort what has been said...
I was thinking of a couple of weeks here and a couple of weeks there.
Kids losing out on their education shouldn't be/ isn't in the mix. That should be well sorted by now.
Psychological etc damage is another thing and yes it's true that those are great problems. Like I said, I don't have the answers and I shouldn't have to have them either and IMO shouldn't be criticised for not being able to sort out the world's problems.
IMO and it's only an opinion, the latest measures are a joke and will not change anything. Many, many people are going to work and although wearing masks are sharing office space, computers, chairs, and more importantly air. Some of those are going to work on public transport (after waiting in a queue keeping 1.5 m distance of course!), going to a bar at lunchtime for their lunch (prepared in a kitchen by many different people). They take their children to and from school where the teacher may or may not ventilate the classroom after every class, and where the children are in their "bubble" until they go out of the classroom to the corridor... People are travelling from one city to another...And I could go on.
If you give people the impression that they can do normal things, they will do them!


> You have to shock the population into taking safety measures more seriously, and I think this latest move will go some way towards doing that


 Are these measures shocking? Are you shocked by them?
How can putting a curfew from 10:00, 11:00, 12:00pm to 6:00am stop the virus from spreading? How does that work I wonder? It's like reducing groups from 10 to 6 because we all know it's friend number 7 that has the virus, don't we?


----------



## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, I didn't say for a year! And I didn't say *anything about waiting for a vaccine*. Not like you to distort what has been said...
> I was thinking of a couple of weeks here and a couple of weeks there.
> Kids losing out on their education shouldn't be/ isn't in the mix. That should be well sorted by now.
> Psychological etc damage is another thing and yes it's true that those are great problems. Like I said, I don't have the answers and I shouldn't have to have them either and IMO shouldn't be criticised for not being able to sort out the world's problems.
> IMO and it's only an opinion, the latest measures are a joke and will not change anything. Many, many people are going to work and although wearing masks are sharing office space, computers, chairs, and more importantly air. Some of those are going to work on public transport (after waiting in a queue keeping 1.5 m distance of course!), going to a bar at lunchtime for their lunch (prepared in a kitchen by many different people). They take their children to and from school where the teacher may or may not ventilate the classroom after every class, and where the children are in their "bubble" until they go out of the classroom to the corridor... People are travelling from one city to another...And I could go on.
> If you give people the impression that they can do normal things, they will do them!
> Are these measures shocking? Are you shocked by them?
> How can putting a curfew from 10:00, 11:00, 12:00pm to 6:00am stop the virus from spreading? How does that work I wonder? It's like reducing groups from 10 to 6 because we all know it's friend number 7 that has the virus, don't we?


Sorry, I didn't intend to distort what you said. I was asking your opinion, not asking you to sort out the world's problems!  But you did say you thought there should be a total lockdown. I took that to mean nationwide, like the one in March. If this ends before there is a widely available vaccine, there is likely to be a third wave. Even if a successful vaccine is developed by Christmas, as they are now forecasting, It could be at least a year before enough of it can produced to vaccinate the entire population.

It does seem to me that these measures are based on scientific evidence rather than political expediency, unlike in some other countries. People should be able to go about their normal business but taking proper precautions. As we all know, when people have had a few drinks they cast these aside (I've done it myself) and this mainly happens at night so the curfew makes sense. 

As it stands now, ACs have the power to introduce stricter measures in specific localities, which they seem to be doing. Andalucia has introduced a rule that you have to wear a mask while sitting at a table and only take it off while eating or drinking, which also makes sense.

Statistically the virus is less likely to be spread in smaller groups and six is smaller than ten. It's not a magic number.

I don't find the new measures shocking, that's not what I said. But they should provide enough of a jolt to "shock" some people into the virus seriously again if they've got bored with all the handwashing etc. The crisis isn't over by any means ...


----------



## kaipa

I notice that immunologists are warning about the dangers of placing so much hope in a vaccine. Apparently they believe that some will be available soon but they reckon that effective immunity will at best be 70% meaning that we would still need to adhere to restrictions etc as the virus would still be spreading


----------



## Overandout

I agree largely with Pesky.

I have been young(ish) in Spain and have family here who are in their "prime". A curfew from 0.00 to 06.00 means nothing. These are exactly the hours that they want to be out partying together. The only thing that a curfew will achieve is that they will have to stay at the same party all night long. The police might see them staggering home at 7.00, but what will that bring in terms of benefit?

To me it is clear that political / economic pressure is making Sanchez shy away from putting another "real" lockdown as we had in March / April. 

Ironically, if he'd have done it yesterday, we could have had a 6 week lockdown which probably would have had a real effect on the levels of infections / deaths and could have been "free" again by Christmas. As it stands, I fear that in one month we will see that this "half measure" has not had the required effect and the lockdown for real will start in December.


----------



## Overandout

kaipa said:


> I notice that immunologists are warning about the dangers of placing so much hope in a vaccine. Apparently they believe that some will be available soon but they reckon that effective immunity will at best be 70% meaning that we would still need to adhere to restrictions etc as the virus would still be spreading


Yes, it is kind of ironic that the expected levels of immunity from the vaccines is around the level you can achieve with everyone wearing a mask....


----------



## Isobella

No evidence that masks and lockdowns have worked. Spain had one of the strictest lockdowns and now have one of the most deaths. I think closing bars and clubs will just send young people to crowd in someones apartment.


----------



## Overandout

There is plenty of evidence that masks work, if you want to believe it or not is up to you of course. Some people still believe the world is a disc...

And the steady fall in infection levels during the confinement was a coincidence I suppose? 

Sometime you make some decent arguments for your points Isobella but that post was not one of those times...


----------



## kaipa

How could you produce evidence it doesnt work.? The lockdown clearly worked as the contagion level dropped considerably. Masks dont prevent spread but all research shows the help reduce the level of contagions. If you want a life where there are no masks and no rules on how to behave then there is always The Valley of Death around the corner!


----------



## blondebob

kaipa said:


> How could you produce evidence it doesnt work.? The lockdown clearly worked as the contagion level dropped considerably. Masks dont prevent spread but all research shows the help reduce the level of contagions. If you want a life where there are no masks and no rules on how to behave then there is always The Valley of Death around the corner!


For goodness sake grow up....."Contagion"....this ain't a Hollywood film where words such as that are used as "oooooh scary"...Covid19 is a Virus...Valley of Death around the corner? Where is that then Dundee or Glasgow 🐑🐑🐑🐑


----------



## kaipa

I wrote contagion as my keyboard is often in Spanish and contagios automatically comes up which I change


----------



## Pesky Wesky

> For goodness sake grow up....."Contagion"....this ain't a Hollywood film where words such as that are used as "oooooh scary"...Covid19 is a Virus...Valley of Death around the corner? Where is that then Dundee or Glasgow 🐑🐑🐑🐑


Absolutely nothing wrong with the word contagion. Probably the best word to use in these circumstances. Can't think why someone would be criticised for using it
Contagion - noun [ U ] formal uk /kənˈteɪ.dʒən/
the situation in which a disease is spread by touching someone or something:
The doctor says there's no chance/danger of contagion.
CONTAGION | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary


----------



## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> Absolutely nothing wrong with the word contagion. Probably the best word to use in these circumstances. Can't think why someone would be criticised for using it
> Contagion - noun [ U ] formal uk /kənˈteɪ.dʒən/
> the situation in which a disease is spread by touching someone or something:
> The doctor says there's no chance/danger of contagion.
> CONTAGION | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary


There's absolutely no evidence that Contagion is a word! 😅


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> There's absolutely no evidence that Contagion is a word! 😅


¿¿??


----------



## Nomoss

This is supposed to be a serious discussion about Covid and some ****s are arguing about semantics????


----------



## jimenato

Isobella said:


> No evidence that masks and lockdowns have worked. Spain had one of the strictest lockdowns and now have one of the most deaths. I think closing bars and clubs will just send young people to crowd in someones apartment.


Depends upon what you mean by 'worked'.

There was never any way it was going to kill of the virus if that's what people were expecting.

The objective was to 'flatten the curve' - to slow it down so that health services weren't overwhelmed and vaccines and treatments could be developed - or maybe even hope that the virus eventually would mutate itself to a less virulent form.

So the curve was duly flattened, deaths and infections decreased, and now that precautions are being relaxed, it's coming back.

So it would seem quite obvious that it worked.


----------



## Nomoss

jimenato said:


> Depends upon what you mean by 'worked'.
> 
> There was never any way it was going to kill of the virus if that's what people were expecting.
> 
> The objective was to 'flatten the curve' - to slow it down so that health services weren't overwhelmed and vaccines and treatments could be developed - or maybe even hope that the virus eventually would mutate itself to a less virulent form.
> 
> So the curve was duly flattened, deaths and infections decreased, and now that precautions are being relaxed, it's coming back.
> 
> So it would seem quite obvious that it worked.


I wish everyone understood what the authorities are trying to do.


----------



## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> ¿¿??


Sorry, tongue in cheek reference to the fact that that the negationists are now even denying the existence of words as well.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> Sorry, tongue in cheek reference to the fact that that the negationists are now even denying the existence of words as well.


"Knowing" you I thought it was, but wasn't sure


----------



## Overandout

Meanwhile, Ayuso has supposedly said that she will concede that Madrid community should be closed, but only if control of Madrid - Barajas airport is handed over to Madrid authorities. According to her, the virus is apparently being brought in to Madrid from abroad....


----------



## Alcalaina

So, we were supposed to be overnighting in a lovely apartment in Jerez as OH has his citizenship exam there this afternoon. Because Jerez is one of the 400+ towns in Andalucia that is closing its borders at midnight tonight, we are going to have to leave in time to get home before curfew. Damn! And it will be too late to go out for a drink when we get back ...

Can't really complain though, it's an inconvenience to us but there are millions of people far worse off.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> So, we were supposed to be overnighting in a lovely apartment in Jerez as OH has his citizenship exam there this afternoon. Because Jerez is one of the 400+ towns in Andalucia that is closing its borders at midnight tonight, we are going to have to leave in time to get home before curfew. Damn! And it will be too late to go out for a drink when we get back ...
> 
> Can't really complain though, it's an inconvenience to us but there are millions of people far worse off.


Doing an exam is usually included in the exceptions, but they would expect you to be back within a reasonable time after the exam I suppose, and it would only be the person doing the exam that would be allowed.
Not that it's got anything to do with it because a curfew is supposed to be adhered to no matter what, it's very likely that it will not be heavily policed...


----------



## Isobella

See Brits on Facebook intending to drive down from the ferry to Andalucia. Can they do that with new restrictions? 

Strange how many people say they agree with lockdowns and other restrictions but then try to find ways to get around the rules. An article in business Insider states that the majority of new cases in Europe stem from a strain of the virus traced back to Spain.


----------



## Isobella

See Brits on Facebook intending to drive down from the ferry to Andalucia. Can they do that with new restrictions? 

Strange how many people say they agree with lockdowns and other restrictions but then try to find ways to get around the rules. An article in business Insider states that the majority of new cases in Europe stem from a strain of the virus traced back to Spain. 








A mutated coronavirus strain causes most new COVID-19 infections in Europe and was spread within the continent by tourists, scientists say


The coronavirus variant, known as 20A.EU1, has been identified in 12 European countries as well as in Hong Kong and New Zealand, scientists said.




www.businessinsider.com


----------



## 95995

Isobella said:


> See Brits on Facebook intending to drive down from the ferry to Andalucia. Can they do that with new restrictions?
> 
> Strange how many people say they agree with lockdowns and other restrictions but then try to find ways to get around the rules. An article in business Insider states that the majority of new cases in Europe stem from a strain of the virus traced back to Spain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A mutated coronavirus strain causes most new COVID-19 infections in Europe and was spread within the continent by tourists, scientists say
> 
> 
> The coronavirus variant, known as 20A.EU1, has been identified in 12 European countries as well as in Hong Kong and New Zealand, scientists said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.businessinsider.com


Must be an different strain to that in France 🥴 though I am sure, in fact I know, there are many theories proposed by scientists. Still, people believe whatever it suits them to believe.

Certainly there *are *significant infections across most of Europe.


----------



## DonMarco

Just discovered Andalucia is closing its borders from midnight tonight and Catalunia from 6am tomorrow. I'm due to drive back to Switzerland to my place of residency on Saturday in time to cross France before they close the border on Sunday night. Does anyone know if foreigners are allowed to return to their place of residency during these closures or where I could find this information.


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## Jenny Jitterbug

Isobella said:


> France and Germany have opened borders to UK too. Don’t know what the restrictions are though.


Covid-19 will become bankruptcy track and trace.


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## 95995

Jenny Jitterbug said:


> Covid-19 will become bankruptcy track and trace.


Isobella's post that you are replying to is an old one.


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## Jenny Jitterbug

Don’t lose sleep over it.


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## 95995

Jenny Jitterbug said:


> Don’t lose sleep over it.


I am not likely to, I have enough to lose sleep over here in France with a govt that can't even update its site re the new Covid lockdown less than 4 hours before it comes into effect.


----------



## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> Doing an exam is usually included in the exceptions, but they would expect you to be back within a reasonable time after the exam I suppose, and it would only be the person doing the exam that would be allowed.
> Not that it's got anything to do with it because a curfew is supposed to be adhered to no matter what, it's very likely that it will not be heavily policed...


He did the exam, no problem (100%). But we were hoping to spend the night there afterwards, meet up with friends for a drink and a meal and come back next morning. Because of the cierre perimetral which came into force at midnight that was no longer possible, so we had a quick meal and went home. Some restaurants are opening their kitchens at 7 pm now to try and attract early diners, but we were the only customers. I think it will take a while for the Spanish to change their eating habits!

It wasn't possible to get a refund on the apartment but there you go, these things happen.


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## Lynn R

Hopefully this announcement will mean that we will see an end to the long queues of people kept waiting outside Centros de Salud in Andalucia.









Coronavirus: los centros de salud reordenan sus accesos para garantizar la seguridad de los pacientes


Atención Primaria indicarán las limitaciones de aforo y señalizará circuitos y espacios diferenciados por los que deben transitar sus usuarios Niveles de alerta y medidas por distritos sanitarios de Andalucía




www.malagahoy.es


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## Isobella

Thanks for reminding me of Malaga Hoy. Fed up of all the paywalls in Dario Sur etc.


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## Isobella

Alcalaina said:


> He did the exam, no problem (100%). But we were hoping to spend the night there afterwards, meet up with friends for a drink and a meal and come back next morning. Because of the cierre perimetral which came into force at midnight that was no longer possible, so we had a quick meal and went home. Some restaurants are opening their kitchens at 7 pm now to try and attract early diners, but we were the only customers. I think it will take a while for the Spanish to change their eating habits!
> 
> It wasn't possible to get a refund on the apartment but there you go, these things happen.


Seems ridiculous that some have to jump through hoops for valid reasons yet tourists who can’t buy a pint of beer in their area of UK are allowed to fly in to Malaga.


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## Overandout

There seems to be an ever increasing recognition in the media that Spain will eventually have to lock down again, possibly with a bit lighter rules than last time (schools to remain open, maybe some outdoor exercise allowed).

I only hope that they do it sooner rather than later. One report I read said that it would be in the next two weeks and would last for one month initially.

I have read several articles over the weekend, but here's the one which I think is one of the better written ones and from a reasonably informed source:









Rafael Bengoa: "Es inevitable un nuevo confinamiento domiciliario en España en dos semanas"


Sostiene que sería de un mes y se permitiría a los niños seguir acudiendo a clase.




www.heraldo.es


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> There seems to be an ever increasing recognition in the media that Spain will eventually have to lock down again, possibly with a bit lighter rules than last time (schools to remain open, maybe some outdoor exercise allowed).
> 
> I only hope that they do it sooner rather than later. One report I read said that it would be in the next two weeks and would last for one month initially.


Yes!
Let's do it!
What the **** are we waiting for!!!?


----------



## Lynn R

With the majority of new cases arising from family gatherings (so it is reported) it would make more sense to have a lockdown for the entire month of December (which would cover the early December puente, Christmas and New Year's Eve) than have a lockdown earlier than that and then have everybody go mad over Christmas and New Year and be back at square one. It will never happen, but imo they should just say sorry Christmas and New Year is cancelled for this year.


----------



## Overandout

Lynn R said:


> With the majority of new cases arising from family gatherings (so it is reported) it would make more sense to have a lockdown for the entire month of December (which would cover the early December puente, Christmas and New Year's Eve) than have a lockdown earlier than that and then have everybody go mad over Christmas and New Year and be back at square one. It will never happen, but imo they should just say sorry Christmas and New Year is cancelled for this year.


You are right, but it is a balancing act. Stopping people from going out over the holiday period will be hugely unpopular and the protest movement is growing against such restrictions.
I would prefer to have a full lockdown now which would hopefully have an effect similar to that in March / April, and then allow people some liberty over Christmas.

I know we shouldn't mix health issues with politics, but the government needs to think of how to keep in power (if that is at all possible) and that includes keeping the right wing and negationaist population more or less in control.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> With the majority of new cases arising from family gatherings (so it is reported) it would make more sense to have a lockdown for the entire month of December (which would cover the early December puente, Christmas and New Year's Eve) than have a lockdown earlier than that and then have everybody go mad over Christmas and New Year and be back at square one. It will never happen, but imo they should just say sorry Christmas and New Year is cancelled for this year.


I think we have to take for granted that people will get together with at least their families if not friends over the Christmas period. There seems little point in legislating over the inevitable and for any government I think it would be suicide. Christmas gatherings are going to happen whether we like it or not. Lockdown would have to be now to prevent contagion (there's that word) going through the roof from December 22 onwards


----------



## blondebob

Lynn R said:


> With the majority of new cases arising from family gatherings (so it is reported) it would make more sense to have a lockdown for the entire month of December (which would cover the early December puente, Christmas and New Year's Eve) than have a lockdown earlier than that and then have everybody go mad over Christmas and New Year and be back at square one. It will never happen, but imo they should just say sorry Christmas and New Year is cancelled for this year.


Absolutely but no half measures....schools and such like closed including air borders, all bars and restaurants. Should be immediate through Dec and January. Massive fines for no compliance.


----------



## Lynn R

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think we have to take for granted that people will get together with at least their families if not friends over the Christmas period. There seems little point in legislating over the inevitable and for any government I think it would be suicide. Christmas gatherings are going to happen whether we like it or not. Lockdown would have to be now to prevent contagion (there's that word) going through the roof from December 22 onwards


Better make plans for a third lockdown round about February then.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> Better make plans for a third lockdown round about February then.


It's not what I want; it's what I think will happen.


----------



## Overandout

Of course. A third wave is inevitable. But I think it will be later than February.

There doesn't seem to be a consensus on when Spain / Europe would get it, but I think a 6 month cycle looks like a safe bet, so March / April again.


----------



## Lynn R

Oh just in time for Easter, then, so people will be kicking off about Semana Santa and the tourist season being cancelled.

I really don't see the point of having a lockdown in the next few weeks if everybody knows full well that the vast majority of the population will be mixing with their family and friends and having parties at home as if there was no pandemic just a couple of weeks after the lockdown ends.


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## Overandout

The purpose of the lockdowns is to make sure that the Intensive Care Units can cope with those who need them. 
Once the peak of necessity has passed they can ease up on restrictions until we all try to kill ourselves again. 
And repeat ad infinitum.


----------



## Megsmum

Lockdown protects the hospital and health services it is not to stop the virus. It will be repeated ad infinitum until one or both things happen 
1Vaccine
2 People take responsibility for themselves. 

I'm in hospital recovering from surgery. Last week I had to travel from Extremadura to Cuidad Real for my scan ! If I need cheomotherapy then no lockdown will mean I might not get it....

It's the same all over the world. Those that try and those that complain and want a quick fix. Since day one this was not going anywhere fast and this winter a lot more people will die, if not of covid of other things because of covid. My family have cx their Xmas trip here this year, I'd rather miss Xmas this year and have some sort of life back by the end of next year...because it's going to be 2022 before normality of some sort returns.... Stay safe x


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## Love Spain

Hello please can anyone tell me if Spain is going into lockdown and for how long thanks


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Depends what you mean by lockdown. At the moment there are a lot of restrictions in place including restrictions on movement. A "State of Alarm" has been declared from the end of October until possibly the 9th of May. In some areas bars and restaurants are closed, there is a curfew in the whole country but the actual hours depend from place to place, schools are open...
Stricter or more lenient measures will be put into place as the situation develops


----------



## Love Spain

Pesky Wesky said:


> Depends what you mean by lockdown. At the moment there are a lot of restrictions in place including restrictions on movement. A "State of Alarm" has been declared from the end of October until possibly the 9th of May. In some areas bars and restaurants are closed, there is a curfew in the whole country but the actual hours depend from place to place, schools are open...
> Stricter or more lenient measures will be put into place as the situation develops


Hi I mean is there a full lockdown been declared for Malaga from Monday if yes for how long if that makes any sense ?


----------



## Lynn R

No, nothing other than the night time curfew and early closing for bars and restaurants has been declared for Málaga province after 9 November as yet, and there isn't likely to be any definite announcement until the weekend. The Junta de Andalucia woud have to seek authorisation from the Government to bring in a "lockdown" as such, and the Government has already refused such requests from a couple of other autonomous regions (although that could change by the weekend, who knows). If they did make such a request and it wasn't approved by the Government, then the Junta could still require all bars, restaurants, non essential shops and leisure facilities to close. But we will have to wait until the weekend to see what has been decided.


----------



## Love Spain

Lynn R said:


> No, nothing other than the night time curfew and early closing for bars and restaurants has been declared for Málaga province after 9 November as yet, and there isn't likely to be any definite announcement until the weekend. The Junta de Andalucia woud have to seek authorisation from the Government to bring in a "lockdown" as such, and the Government has already refused such requests from a couple of other autonomous regions (although that could change by the weekend, who knows). If they did make such a request and it wasn't approved by the Government, then the Junta could still require all bars, restaurants, non essential shops and leisure facilities to close. But we will have to wait until the weekend to see what has been decided.


Thanks Lyn will you let me know if you do go into full lockdown thanks Shaz


----------



## Lynn R

I have just seen it confirmed that the next meeting in Andalucia to discuss any potential new measures will be held this coming Sunday, so don't expect any news before then.









Moreno anuncia reunión este domingo del comité de expertos para decretar nuevas medidas COVID en Andalucía


La Junta muestra su apoyo al sector turístico y trabaja en el equilibrio salud-economía MÁLAGA, 4 (EUROPA PRESS) El presidente de la Junta de Andalucía, Juanma




www.lavanguardia.com





I (or I'm sure somone else) will post any news that arises from that meeting.


----------



## Lynn R

Salvador Illa has announced this afternoon that the Government will not introduce home confinement for at least another two or three weeks, even if autonomous regions ask for it, as they believe there needs to be time to assess whether the measures currently in force are working. As I said earlier, though, that does not mean that autonomous regions won't order the closure of bars, restaurants, non essential shops and sports and leisure facilities, or extend the mobility restrictions currently in place.









Illa avisa de que no habrá confinamientos en casa antes de «dos o tres semanas»


Sanidad rechaza la petición formal de cuatro autonomías y las dos ciudades para una nueva alarma mientras presiona a las regiones para que agoten toda su munición antes




www.hoy.es


----------



## Alcalaina

Love Spain said:


> Hi I mean is there a full lockdown been declared for Malaga from Monday if yes for how long if that makes any sense ?


There is not a lockdown in the sense that you can't leave the house. But there is a curfew (nobody is allowed on the street between 11 pm and 6 am), bars must close at 10.30 pm, and masks must be worn at all times in public places, indoors and out. 

You can't travel to other parts of Spain outside Andalucia, and some towns have also closed their borders. In Málaga province these are: Alameda, Almargen, Antequera, Archidona, Campillos, Cañete La Real, Cuevas Bajas, Cuevas de San Marcos, Fuente de Piedra, Humilladero, Molina, Sierra de Yeguas, Teba, Valle de Abdalajís, Villanueva de Algaidas, Villanueva del Rosario, Villanueva de Tapia y Villanueva del Trabuco.

But things can change at any time.


----------



## Love Spain

Hi thanks for this info. Do you know if the entry is closed for Coin and Alhaurin el grande. I wanted to move my furniture from UK in December?


----------



## Alcalaina

Love Spain said:


> Hi thanks for this info. Do you know if the entry is closed for Coin and Alhaurin el grande. I wanted to move my furniture from UK in December?


At the moment the only towns closed are those listed in my previous post. But the border with Andalucía is closed so you can’t drive into the region from elsewhere. And things can change any time.


----------



## Love Spain

Ok thankyou for that ! Because removal firm would be coming from Manchester. Please let me know when these restrictions are lifted at the boarders thank you 
Also do you know why the police came to take pictures of my house in alhaurin and why I need a architect for this full rewire. It’s been a total nightmare trying to get a rewire done for this house. I have just got a Bulitin tho


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## Alcalaina

Love Spain said:


> Ok thankyou for that ! Because removal firm would be coming from Manchester. Please let me know when these restrictions are lifted at the boarders thank you


the removal firm might be able to get permission to cross the border, as they are carrying freight. Get them to look into this, it’s what you are paying them for.


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## Lynn R

The new measures for Andalucia have now been announced, and will take effect from Tuesday. All municipalities in Andalucia are now subject to perimetral confinement (so we can't travel outside of our own municipalities except for essential reasons), non-essential activity including bars, restaurants and non essential shops must close at 18.00 (and in Granada province all those things will be closed altogether). Schools will remain open. These measures will remain in place until 23 November (at least).









Nuevas medidas en Andalucía: Cierre de la actividad no esencial a las 18:00 y ampliación del toque de queda a las 22:00


Las restricciones entrarán en vigor el martes a las 00:00 y estarán activas hasta el 23 de noviembre Sesenta pueblos andaluces concentran las tasas más altas de coronavirus




www.malagahoy.es


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## Lynn R

I forgot to say, the night time curfew will now start from 10pm from Tuesday.


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## Alcalaina

Lynn R said:


> The new measures for Andalucia have now been announced, and will take effect from Tuesday. All municipalities in Andalucia are now subject to perimetral confinement (so we can't travel outside of our own municipalities except for essential reasons), non-essential activity including bars, restaurants and non essential shops must close at 18.00 (and in Granada province all those things will be closed altogether). Schools will remain open. These measures will remain in place until 23 November (at least).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nuevas medidas en Andalucía: Cierre de la actividad no esencial a las 18:00 y ampliación del toque de queda a las 22:00
> 
> 
> Las restricciones entrarán en vigor el martes a las 00:00 y estarán activas hasta el 23 de noviembre Sesenta pueblos andaluces concentran las tasas más altas de coronavirus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.malagahoy.es


From midnight Tuesday I believe?


----------



## Lynn R

In Diario Sur it says from 00.00 el proximo martes, which I take to mean from the start of Tuesday.


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## Love Spain

Lynn R said:


> The new measures for Andalucia have now been announced, and will take effect from Tuesday. All municipalities in Andalucia are now subject to perimetral confinement (so we can't travel outside of our own municipalities except for essential reasons), non-essential activity including bars, restaurants and non essential shops must close at 18.00 (and in Granada province all those things will be closed altogether). Schools will remain open. These measures will remain in place until 23 November (at least).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nuevas medidas en Andalucía: Cierre de la actividad no esencial a las 18:00 y ampliación del toque de queda a las 22:00
> 
> 
> Las restricciones entrarán en vigor el martes a las 00:00 y estarán activas hasta el 23 de noviembre Sesenta pueblos andaluces concentran las tasas más altas de coronavirus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.malagahoy.es


Thankyou so much Lynn ! I’m still in Manchester and I bought spanish car last week and need to drive it over to Malaga in December 3rd hope I’m ok by then ?


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## Lynn R

Well I hope so, but nobody can tell what the situation is going to be by 3 December, it just depends on how the numbers go and how much pressure the hospitals come under.


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## Love Spain

Lynn R said:


> Well I hope so, but nobody can tell what the situation is going to be by 3 December, it just depends on how the numbers go and how much pressure the hospitals come under.


Very true everything is unpredictable at the moment thanks lynn for your help have good evening x


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## Pesky Wesky

Not looking good for Christmas in Spain. More info to come on Friday
Spanish regions consider stricter Covid-19 measures ahead of holidays


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## kaipa

It's very depressing as it looks like we are on the tip of a 3rd wave in Spain with officially only 10% of people having contacted the virus meaning we are a long way from any possible herd immunity. Add into the equation the % of people who say they will refuse the vaccination and you can see it's not going to be all okay by Easter or even the summer.


----------



## Roy C

There was enough real doom and gloom about this / last year, I'm going to think positive, get the vaccine and minimise socialising, which i don't find a problem to do. 
I've had to come to the UK and i think here is currently more risky.


----------



## Alcalaina

Andalucia now has the lowest rate of contagion in mainland Spain and have said they won't tighten restrictions further. Still not taking any chances though.


----------



## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> Andalucia now has the lowest rate of contagion in mainland Spain and have said they won't tighten restrictions further. Still not taking any chances though.


The perimetral restrictions seem to have helped. 

Here in Valencia however, where I live, it's not so great. We've only had to stay within the Comunidad, so travel between three Provinces has been allowed.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

More news here about levels of immunity, number of people being tested, current rate of incidence, and current vaccination plans in Spain
One out of every 10 Spaniards may have contracted coronavirus, new study shows


----------



## kaipa

Unfortunately it has started rising again in some regions like Madrid and despite the restrictions it does look as if the last puente has resulted in more contagions. No doubt it will be alot worse after Christmas as I very much doubt people will limit their family gatherings which tend to be large.


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## kaipa

I see Sanchez has to self isolate now!


----------



## timwip

xabiaxica said:


> The perimetral restrictions seem to have helped.
> 
> Here in Valencia however, where I live, it's not so great. We've only had to stay within the Comunidad, so travel between three Provinces has been allowed.





xabiaxica said:


> The perimetral restrictions seem to have helped.
> 
> Here in Valencia however, where I live, it's not so great. We've only had to stay within the Comunidad, so travel between three Provinces has been allowed.


The randomness of Covid really makes me scratch my head and somewhat scares me. Here are three examples of randomness:
1. During the first wave, Asturias was the best in Spain, now we are getting hit hard.
2. My son got Covid but his wife did not.
3. In my building, there are two nuns that are 90+ with two live-in caretakers. Two nuns and one caretaker got Covid but the other one did not. Luckily all three that had it have bounced back. (Just goes to show that nuns never die!)

I am sure there are a lot of other antecdotal stories out there. I think there is still a lot unknown about Covid expecially how it is transmitted.


----------



## kaipa

timwip said:


> The randomness of Covid really makes me scratch my head and somewhat scares me. Here are three examples of randomness:
> 1. During the first wave, Asturias was the best in Spain, now we are getting hit hard.
> 2. My son got Covid but his wife did not.
> 3. In my building, there are two nuns that are 90+ with two live-in caretakers. Two nuns and one caretaker got Covid but the other one did not. Luckily all three that had it have bounced back. (Just goes to show that nuns never die!)
> 
> I am sure there are a lot of other antecdotal stories out there. I think there is still a lot unknown about Covid expecially how it is transmitted.



Not sure it is limited to Covid. Some people get flu one year but not the next. I dont think even virologists no for sure why it happens.


----------



## xabiaxica

Tougher measures in the Valencian Community from 21/12 to 15/1.



https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=3578943358826096&id=123031777750622



Comunidad confinement reinforced. Only residents allowed to enter. (Presumably except for the usual specific reasons such as medical)
Curfew starts 11pm (currently midnight) except 24 & 31 December
Only 6 people allowed to be together either privately or publicly, & from only two households. No exception for Xmas.

My town Jávea has its own campaign for safe celebration. Get the tissues ready...


----------



## xicoalc

xabiaxica said:


> Tougher measures in the Valencian Community from 21/12 to 15/1.
> 
> 
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=3578943358826096&id=123031777750622
> 
> 
> 
> Comunidad confinement reinforced. Only residents allowed to enter. (Presumably except for the usual specific reasons such as medical)
> Curfew starts 11pm (currently midnight) except 24 & 31 December
> Only 6 people allowed to be together either privately or publicly, & from only two households. No exception for Xmas.
> 
> My town Jávea has its own campaign for safe celebration. Get the tissues ready...


Too little, too late? I do think that province borders should have been locked if I am honest but as sad as it is for all of us not to be able to see those closest to us, I think that this was an important step. New year, at home, just the two of us.... the perfect recipe for a romantic start to 2021..... or the start of a divorce!


----------



## xabiaxica

xicoalc said:


> Too little, too late? I do think that province borders should have been locked if I am honest but as sad as it is for all of us not to be able to see those closest to us, I think that this was an important step. New year, at home, just the two of us.... the perfect recipe for a romantic start to 2021..... or the start of a divorce!


Just a few weeks ago, the region had some of the best / lowest contagion numbers on the mainland. I suspect a lot of people simply relaxed - & the long puente weekend at the beginning of the month can't have helped.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

timwip said:


> The randomness of Covid really makes me scratch my head and somewhat scares me. Here are three examples of randomness:
> 1. During the first wave, Asturias was the best in Spain, now we are getting hit hard.
> 2. My son got Covid but his wife did not.
> 3. In my building, there are two nuns that are 90+ with two live-in caretakers. Two nuns and one caretaker got Covid but the other one did not. Luckily all three that had it have bounced back. (Just goes to show that nuns never die!)
> 
> I am sure there are a lot of other antecdotal stories out there. I think there is still a lot unknown about Covid expecially how it is transmitted.


I agree with you; there often seems to be little reason behind the rise and fall of Covid cases/ deaths. One week it's a little town in Cantabria, Madrid and Sevilla, and the next week it's Galicia, Burgos and Murcia. None of those areas touch. Travel and negligence can be the cause of some of the spread, but not all. It doesn't add up. As you say, there's a lot to learn about Covid 19 yet.


----------



## xabiaxica

Flights from the UK effectively banned as of tomorrow, Tuesday, 22/12/2020. Only Spanish nationals & registered residents to be permitted to land.









España suspende los vuelos con el Reino Unido salvo para españoles y residentes


El Gobierno ha anunciado en un comunicado que se suma a otros países europeos y prohíbe las entradas en territorio español de ciudadanos procedentes del Reino Unido, salvo nacionales españoles o residentes en España.




www.ondacero.es


----------



## Overandout

xabiaxica said:


> Flights from the UK effectively banned as of tomorrow, Tuesday, 22/12/2020. Only Spanish nationals & registered residents to be permitted to land.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> España suspende los vuelos con el Reino Unido salvo para españoles y residentes
> 
> 
> El Gobierno ha anunciado en un comunicado que se suma a otros países europeos y prohíbe las entradas en territorio español de ciudadanos procedentes del Reino Unido, salvo nacionales españoles o residentes en España.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ondacero.es


 Sorry for this as I know exactly what is meant of course, but I got a great mental image of how they would selectively "land" only certain passengers due to their nationality / residence status, while the rest of the plane did not!!!

I've always wanted to do a parachute jump, but not really in those forced conditions!


----------



## xabiaxica

Overandout said:


> Sorry for this as I know exactly what is meant of course, but I got a great mental image of how they would selectively "land" only certain passengers due to their nationality / residence status, while the rest of the plane did not!!!
> 
> I've always wanted to do a parachute jump, but not really in those forced conditions!


Where's the LMAO emoji! 🤣😂

You're right. I suppose 'board in the UK' would make more sense, but during the lockdown plenty managed to get to Spain only to be sent back.


----------



## kaipa

It's very worrying and I wonder when these restrictions will be lifted. It seems that once imposed its difficult to change them without signalling a sense of relaxation.


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## Overandout

😂😉

On a practical note however, it does make you wonder how the airlines are supposed to deal with the situation... do they wait until they have a plane load of travelers with the right paperwork before scheduling a flight?

I've already had my flights to England at Easter cancelled by Easyjet, and those were re-bookings from a previous cancellation from earlier this year... Easyjet have had my money for well over a year now, so I've asked for a refund this time.

I can see more airlines going under / wanting bailouts at this rate.


----------



## timwip

Overandout said:


> 😂😉
> 
> On a practical note however, it does make you wonder how the airlines are supposed to deal with the situation... do they wait until they have a plane load of travelers with the right paperwork before scheduling a flight?
> 
> I've already had my flights to England at Easter cancelled by Easyjet, and those were re-bookings from a previous cancellation from earlier this year... Easyjet have had my money for well over a year now, so I've asked for a refund this time.
> 
> I can see more airlines going under / wanting bailouts at this rate.


The weekend before last, one of my children got married in the United States. As a result, we just went through the hassle of flying back to Spain last week. First of all, Iberia cancelled us three times leading up to the flight. I think it has come down to them only flying between Madrid and New York. As a result, their cancellations funneled us through that route. 

In order to return to Spain, we had have a negative PCR test within 72 hours of arrival in Spain. Furthermore, the test results needed additional information such as address in Spain and passport number. I had to read the BOE to make sure I had all the information. This proved to be a complicated and costly matter complying with the Spanish government requirements. In the US, PCR tests are free; however, the turn around time is 48 to 96 hours and they just text you if you are negative. As a result, we needed to go through a private laboratory at a cost of $175/test in order to get the proper turnaround time and documentation.

Before boarding the flight in New York, we had show Iberia our negative test results plus the Spanish health form. When we arrived, in Madrid things went smoothly because we had all the documentation together. I would like to stress that it is very important to follow the BOE instructions. I found that newspapers, etc did not provide all the details. After passing through Spanish health authorities, we then had to wait 9 hours for our connecting flight to Oviedo!


----------



## xabiaxica

Overandout said:


> 😂😉
> 
> On a practical note however, it does make you wonder how the airlines are supposed to deal with the situation... do they wait until they have a plane load of travelers with the right paperwork before scheduling a flight?
> 
> I've already had my flights to England at Easter cancelled by Easyjet, and those were re-bookings from a previous cancellation from earlier this year... Easyjet have had my money for well over a year now, so I've asked for a refund this time.
> 
> I can see more airlines going under / wanting bailouts at this rate.


Isn't it the case that they only have to refund if they cancel a flight? Perhaps they'll just run the flights with those who have the correct paperwork & tough on those who don't.


----------



## timwip

xabiaxica said:


> Isn't it the case that they only have to refund if they cancel a flight? Perhaps they'll just run the flights with those who have the correct paperwork & tough on those who don't.


Yes! I believe Iberia would have counted us as a "no show" if we did not present the proper paper work in NYC. No refund for no shows.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> 😂😉
> 
> On a practical note however, it does make you wonder how the airlines are supposed to deal with the situation... do they wait until they have a plane load of travelers with the right paperwork before scheduling a flight?
> 
> I've already had my flights to England at Easter cancelled by Easyjet, and those were re-bookings from a previous cancellation from earlier this year... Easyjet have had my money for well over a year now, so I've asked for a refund this time.
> 
> I can see more airlines going under / wanting bailouts at this rate.


Just so you know, I got my my money back from Easyjet for flights cancelled at Easter. I was surprised as I never got money back when I had to cancel flights for a death in the family. They said they would return it, and several times, but it was never paid out.


----------



## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> Just so you know, I got my my money back from Easyjet for flights cancelled at Easter. I was surprised as I never got money back when I had to cancel flights for a death in the family. They said they would return it, and several times, but it was never paid out.


Yes, I also received the refund from one of the trips they cancelled earlier this year, relatively quickly too (about 6 weeks I think it was). This was another one which we cancelled ourselves first time round (friends cancelled their wedding), and now the re-booking has been cancelled by Easyjet.

I've never really had any major problems with Easyjet in over 20 years of regular use, certainly never lost any money (the worst was probably the excessive wait for the luggage in Bristol a few years back which you suffered first hand too!)


----------



## Overandout

So here's my little Covid anecdote for your entertainment!

We decided to have serological tests on Friday (the whole family), then virtually self isolate to make sure that we could meet up with some of my wife's Spanish family after Christmas without risk, we kept the kids out of school on Monday and Tuesday as preagreed with the teachers.

On Monday we got the results and both my wife and I were positive! (She had IGg and IGm, I only had IGm).

Neither of us had any symptoms, nor were expecting this at all!

We had a telephone appointment with the doctor and were told that the positives were very low value positives and that we really shouldn't worry, especially as we had no symptoms... not very reassuring IMHO. 

We asked if we had to self iolate, quaratine ourselves, inform recent contacts or take any other special measures, and were told that it was not necesary as the values were so low it was impossble for us to transmit the virus.... Now we are confused. Are we positive or not? Eventually we convinced the doctor that we needed a more definitive diagnosis so we were prescribed a PCR test.

We had already prepaid a Antigeno test for each person as a "back up" which we were going to do half way through the holiday period, so we hastily went yesterday to queue up for a test "without appointment".... four and half hours queuing in the street to be tested! Results were negative, but these tests are not really reliable so on we went to the PCR test.

PCR resuts should be with us later! Keeping my fingers crossed!


----------



## Relyat

Just proves how much confidence and certainty can be derived from the testing.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> So here's my little Covid anecdote for your entertainment!
> 
> We decided to have serological tests on Friday (the whole family), then virtually self isolate to make sure that we could meet up with some of my wife's Spanish family after Christmas without risk, we kept the kids out of school on Monday and Tuesday as preagreed with the teachers.
> 
> On Monday we got the results and both my wife and I were positive! (She had IGg and IGm, I only had IGm).
> 
> Neither of us had any symptoms, nor were expecting this at all!
> 
> We had a telephone appointment with the doctor and were told that the positives were very low value positives and that we really shouldn't worry, especially as we had no symptoms... not very reassuring IMHO.
> 
> We asked if we had to self iolate, quaratine ourselves, inform recent contacts or take any other special measures, and were told that it was not necesary as the values were so low it was impossble for us to transmit the virus.... Now we are confused. Are we positive or not? Eventually we convinced the doctor that we needed a more definitive diagnosis so we were prescribed a PCR test.
> 
> We had already prepaid a Antigeno test for each person as a "back up" which we were going to do half way through the holiday period, so we hastily went yesterday to queue up for a test "without appointment".... four and half hours queuing in the street to be tested! Results were negative, but these tests are not really reliable so on we went to the PCR test.
> 
> PCR resuts should be with us later! Keeping my fingers crossed!


Oh blimey!
I've given up on the whole thing and will not be seeing anyone except for 2 trusted friends in outdoor locations and with masks. I'm not going to see family in Bilbao and of course not going to the UK. Will be a very quiet Christmas without the stress of travelling and also with reduced present buying which is often a little stressful for me, so as to avoiding shopping areas. We have decided to spend the money doing things when we do in fact meet up . We are aiming for the end of Feb when there are a couple of days off school here and when by which time "abuela" will probably have had her vaccine.


----------



## kaipa

That is so frustrating to hear and you must be quite annoyed. It's good you were so responsible but really disappointing to get such results plus to be given quite unhelpful advice which must leave you thinking what's the point. I am limiting my Christmas to solely seeing my son and popping to the supermarket.


----------



## xicoalc

Overandout said:


> So here's my little Covid anecdote for your entertainment!
> 
> We decided to have serological tests on Friday (the whole family), then virtually self isolate to make sure that we could meet up with some of my wife's Spanish family after Christmas without risk, we kept the kids out of school on Monday and Tuesday as preagreed with the teachers.
> 
> On Monday we got the results and both my wife and I were positive! (She had IGg and IGm, I only had IGm).
> 
> Neither of us had any symptoms, nor were expecting this at all!
> 
> We had a telephone appointment with the doctor and were told that the positives were very low value positives and that we really shouldn't worry, especially as we had no symptoms... not very reassuring IMHO.
> 
> We asked if we had to self iolate, quaratine ourselves, inform recent contacts or take any other special measures, and were told that it was not necesary as the values were so low it was impossble for us to transmit the virus.... Now we are confused. Are we positive or not? Eventually we convinced the doctor that we needed a more definitive diagnosis so we were prescribed a PCR test.
> 
> We had already prepaid a Antigeno test for each person as a "back up" which we were going to do half way through the holiday period, so we hastily went yesterday to queue up for a test "without appointment".... four and half hours queuing in the street to be tested! Results were negative, but these tests are not really reliable so on we went to the PCR test.
> 
> PCR resuts should be with us later! Keeping my fingers crossed!


There seems to be a lot of false positives. A friend of mines dad was scheduled for a routine operation a few weeks ago. He was tested for covid before going into hospital. Results were positive. Hes elderly and had no symptoms whatsoever. 

His son, my friend, had been in close contact with him and was called and told to isolate amd go for tests. Him, his family and several colleagues all had to isolate. Business was in havoc.

My friends tests were all negative. He returned to work and sent his dad (the "positive") to a private clinic for the full tests, including antibodies to see when he had it etc. All were negative and they said he had never had the virus.

How many people are receiving positive results when actually theres nothing wrong with them?


----------



## Overandout

Yes, unfortunataley this latest episode has made me realise that there really is so little reliable information out there, that a big part of the diagnosis is a bit of a guess.

I am frankly amazed that a doctor would tell me that despite testing positive, I could not transmit the virus and that I didn't need to isolate or quarantine... surely they should be more prudent? Erring always on the side of caution?

I obviously didn't go into the office yesterday and advised everyone that I had been in contact with over the weekend and on Monday of the positive result, but I didn't really feel comforrable trying to assure people that I wasn't able to transmit the virus, I could sense the disbelief as I said it....

We were very lucky that we had time to do a last online shop before Christmas which will be delivered tomorrow, just in time!


----------



## timwip

Overandout said:


> So here's my little Covid anecdote for your entertainment!
> 
> We decided to have serological tests on Friday (the whole family), then virtually self isolate to make sure that we could meet up with some of my wife's Spanish family after Christmas without risk, we kept the kids out of school on Monday and Tuesday as preagreed with the teachers.
> 
> On Monday we got the results and both my wife and I were positive! (She had IGg and IGm, I only had IGm).
> 
> Neither of us had any symptoms, nor were expecting this at all!
> 
> We had a telephone appointment with the doctor and were told that the positives were very low value positives and that we really shouldn't worry, especially as we had no symptoms... not very reassuring IMHO.
> 
> We asked if we had to self iolate, quaratine ourselves, inform recent contacts or take any other special measures, and were told that it was not necesary as the values were so low it was impossble for us to transmit the virus.... Now we are confused. Are we positive or not? Eventually we convinced the doctor that we needed a more definitive diagnosis so we were prescribed a PCR test.
> 
> We had already prepaid a Antigeno test for each person as a "back up" which we were going to do half way through the holiday period, so we hastily went yesterday to queue up for a test "without appointment".... four and half hours queuing in the street to be tested! Results were negative, but these tests are not really reliable so on we went to the PCR test.
> 
> PCR resuts should be with us later! Keeping my fingers crossed!


I am not an epidemiologist so I am no authority on testing. However, having tested positive in the serologic assay, all that says is that you had been previously infected. It does not necessarily mean you are currently infected. Furthermore, if we ever really do achieve "herd immunity", near everyone will test positive in the serologic test. As a result, I think you are giving too much importance to the positive result of the test. All it is saying is that sometime in the past you were exposed to the virus. It is a good test for scientific research; however, it does not tell an individual how they should act going forward.

You then took the antigen test and were negative. This is a quick test that yields a lot of false negatives. As a result, the negative result you received is not totally re-assuring.

The PCR test that you just took since it is a molecular test can very accurately determine whether you have an active infection (you can transmit the infection). Under your circumstances, this is the test you should have started out taking. When you get those results, you can then act accordingly.


----------



## Overandout

timwip said:


> I am not an epidemiologist so I am no authority on testing. However, having tested positive in the serologic assay, all that says is that you had been previously infected. It does not necessarily mean you are currently infected. Furthermore, if we ever really do achieve "herd immunity", near everyone will test positive in the serologic test. As a result, I think you are giving too much importance to the positive result of the test. All it is saying is that sometime in the past you were exposed to the virus. It is a good test for scientific research; however, it does not tell an individual how they should act going forward.
> 
> You then took the antigen test and were negative. This is a quick test that yields a lot of false negatives. As a result, the negative result you received is not totally re-assuring.
> 
> The PCR test that you just took since it is a molecular test can very accurately determine whether you have an active infection (you can transmit the infection). Under your circumstances, this is the test you should have started out taking. When you get those results, you can then act accordingly.


Sorry but that is not true.

Immunity from a past infection is from IGg antibodies. Testing positive for IGm antibodies means that you are currently infected and actively fighting the virus.


----------



## Overandout

In any case, we just got the PCR results: negative!

As Timwip says, this is the most reliable form of testing so we can be fairly sure that the positive from last Friday was a false hit.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> In any case, we just got the PCR results: negative!
> 
> As Timwip says, this is the most reliable form of testing so we can be fairly sure that the positive from last Friday was a false hit.


Congratulations!


----------



## blondebob

In a statement released on December 14, 2020 the World Health Organisation finally owned up to what 100,000s of doctors and medical professionals have been saying for months: the PCR test used to diagnose COVID-19 is a hit and miss process with way too many false positives. This WHO-admitted Problem comes in the wake of international lawsuits exposing the incompetence and malfeasance of public health officials and policymakers for reliance on a diagnostic test not fit for purpose. This World Health Organisation admission is that the crux of the problem is a wholly arbitrary cycling process which means that many cycles were required to detect virus. In some circumstances, the distinction between background noise and actual presence of the target virus is difficult to ascertain.


----------



## jimenato

blondebob said:


> In a statement released on December 14, 2020 the World Health Organisation finally owned up to what 100,000s of doctors and medical professionals have been saying for months: the PCR test used to diagnose COVID-19 is a hit and miss process with way too many false positives. This WHO-admitted Problem comes in the wake of international lawsuits exposing the incompetence and malfeasance of public health officials and policymakers for reliance on a diagnostic test not fit for purpose. This World Health Organisation admission is that the crux of the problem is a wholly arbitrary cycling process which means that many cycles were required to detect virus. In some circumstances, the distinction between background noise and actual presence of the target virus is difficult to ascertain.


Where is that quote from blondebob?


----------



## Alcalaina

blondebob said:


> In a statement released on December 14, 2020 the World Health Organisation finally owned up to what 100,000s of doctors and medical professionals have been saying for months: the PCR test used to diagnose COVID-19 is a hit and miss process with way too many false positives. This WHO-admitted Problem comes in the wake of international lawsuits exposing the incompetence and malfeasance of public health officials and policymakers for reliance on a diagnostic test not fit for purpose. This World Health Organisation admission is that the crux of the problem is a wholly arbitrary cycling process which means that many cycles were required to detect virus. In some circumstances, the distinction between background noise and actual presence of the target virus is difficult to ascertain.


Wrong way round I think. PCR is almost 100% accurate but takes longer because it has to be processed in a lab. The rapid antigen (lateral flow) test gives results within minutes but is far less reliable particularly if administered by untrained staff.

The WHO report is here and gives more detailed instructions to ensure accuracy when using and analysing PCR tests.








WHO Information Notice for IVD Users


Product type: Nucleic acid testing (NAT) technologies that use real-time polymerase chain reaction (RT-PCR) for detection of SARS-CoV-2 Date: 7 December 2020 WHO-identifier: 2020/5, version 1 Purpose of this notice: To ensure...




www.who.int


----------



## jimenato

Alcalaina said:


> Wrong way round I think. PCR is almost 100% accurate but takes longer because it has to be processed in a lab. The rapid antigen (lateral flow) test gives results within minutes but is far less reliable particularly if administered by untrained staff.
> 
> The WHO report is here and gives more detailed instructions to ensure accuracy when using and analysing PCR tests.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHO Information Notice for IVD Users
> 
> 
> Product type: Nucleic acid testing (NAT) technologies that use real-time polymerase chain reaction (RT-PCR) for detection of SARS-CoV-2 Date: 7 December 2020 WHO-identifier: 2020/5, version 1 Purpose of this notice: To ensure...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.who.int


That's the WHO report I found and it's why I asked blondebob for the source of their post.

Their post bears practically no relation to that WHO report at all. If the article quoted in their post (I'm assuming it's a quote rather than their own words) refers to that WHO report, it is a good example of how misinformation is created, spread and believed.


----------



## blondebob

jimenato said:


> Where is that quote from blondebob?











WHO Information Notice for IVD Users


Product type: Nucleic acid testing (NAT) technologies that use real-time polymerase chain reaction (RT-PCR) for detection of SARS-CoV-2 Date: 7 December 2020 WHO-identifier: 2020/5, version 1 Purpose of this notice: To ensure...




www.who.int






jimenato said:


> That's the WHO report I found and it's why I asked blondebob for the source of their post.
> 
> Their post bears practically no relation to that WHO report at all. If the article quoted in their post (I'm assuming it's a quote rather than their own words) refers to that WHO report, it is a good example of how misinformation is created, spread and believed.


It says exactly what I posted.


----------



## jimenato

blondebob said:


> WHO Information Notice for IVD Users
> 
> 
> Product type: Nucleic acid testing (NAT) technologies that use real-time polymerase chain reaction (RT-PCR) for detection of SARS-CoV-2 Date: 7 December 2020 WHO-identifier: 2020/5, version 1 Purpose of this notice: To ensure...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.who.int
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It says exactly what I posted.


What does?


----------



## blondebob

jimenato said:


> What does?


The article


----------



## jimenato

blondebob said:


> The article


Are you trying to say that the article you posted says exactly the same thing as the WHO report Alcalaina posted?


----------



## blondebob

jimenato said:


> Are you trying to say that the article you posted says exactly the same thing as the WHO report Alcalaina posted?


I am not trying to say anything other than PCR Tests are not as accurate as you seem to think. Its well documented but you seem unable to grasp the fact


----------



## jimenato

blondebob said:


> I am not trying to say anything other than PCR Tests are not as accurate as you seem to think. Its well documented but you seem unable to grasp the fact


Uh... I have no idea how accurate or inaccurate a PCR test is.

Try Alcalaina - she posted about that.

I merely read your (unattributed) post, tried to find out about it, found the same WHO report as Alcalaina did, and found it difficult to believe the two were connected. If that was the source of what you posted, whoever wrote it was being very 'creative'.


----------



## blondebob

jimenato said:


> Uh... I have no idea how accurate or inaccurate a PCR test is.
> 
> Try Alcalaina - she posted about that.
> 
> I merely read your (unattributed) post, tried to find out about it, found the same WHO report as Alcalaina did, and found it difficult to believe the two were connected. If that was the source of what you posted, whoever wrote it was being very 'creative'.


Some people are.


----------



## Jgh777

fhanrah said:


> Our 2nd home is San Luis de Sabinillas {Manilva}. Is there any web site where you can get an up to date information on covid-19 cases in your area


Hi, I´m also Irish living in Sabi at the moment. Was looking for reliable info on this topic and this paper publishes good regular info by municipality within Malaga province. The second map on the attached has a good interactive facility. 
Covid-19: Municipal borders to close in Malaga city and eight major Costa del Sol towns . surinenglish.com


----------



## kaipa

La propia Junta corrige a Juan Marín: el 72% de los ingresados en UCI por Covid no son negacionistas


Los consejeros de la Presidencia y Salud rectifican las cifras del vicepresidente y señalan que hay un 63% de hospitalizados que no están vacunados, pero por varias causas: hay quien se ha negado, pero también pautas incompletas y jóvenes a los que todavía no les tocaba




www.eldiario.es





Here is a rather amusing article. 72 % of hospitalized Covid patients are virus- sceptics and unvaccinated. Now I wonder how they feel?


----------



## kaipa

Not looking good for Spain I'm afraid especially as UCI admissions start to nudge up..Baleriacs are believed to be about to lose their green status now as infections shoot up. Admittedly with now 50% of adult population completely vaccinated the more vulnerable have a greater degree of safety but if the rate of infection ( 1.500 per 100.000) in young people continues Spain will probably need to bring back national.level restrictions again


----------



## blondebob

Looking rather dire as Cases of infection have gone through the roof in Spain as of todays figures up by 43,960. Not looking good


----------



## Pesky Wesky

blondebob said:


> Looking rather dire as Cases of infection have gone through the roof in Spain as of todays figures up by 43,960. Not looking good





kaipa said:


> Not looking good for Spain I'm afraid especially as UCI admissions start to nudge up..Baleriacs are believed to be about to lose their green status now as infections shoot up. Admittedly with now 50% of adult population completely vaccinated the more vulnerable have a greater degree of safety but if the rate of infection ( 1.500 per 100.000) in young people continues Spain will probably need to bring back national.level restrictions again


Nope, not looking good, and personally I hope measures do go back a stage or 2 as the world is not ready for mass tourism, like it or not. The tourist trade has to move on, there have to be incentives to branch out into other areas mostly in the field of technology, but also for example in renewable energies, training and repurposing buildings like retail properties and hotels. We have to think about how to move forward, not how to move back to how life was before.


----------



## kaipa

Totally agree. Parts of Spain really need to address the problems of mass tourism. Not only does it limit any economic diversity it leads to bad employment practices and is not a sustainable in light of climate change. Everything about it is counterproductive. It promotes pure consumerism and the most basic level and has profit as its sole target. 
The other day the temperature in torrevieja at 6.00 PM was over 40!! and the smell of exhaust fumes trapped with the heat was noticeable. ( Parking is impossible in Torrevieja in July / August) The smell from the overflowing rubbish bins even now reaches my 4th floor flat. It was horrible!!. Yet all we hear is how badly the town is doing without the British tourists. Another thing is that there is no where in the centre that does a good menu del dia. A few years ago there were a few bars that had tasty homemade menus but now it is all just premade supermarket sauces and cheap meat. Many just offer the microwave pizza and hamburger as that seems to all the tourist trade wants and it means there is no need to employ a cook.


----------



## Alcalaina

72% of people currently in ICU in Andalucia are 50-60 year-olds who refused to be vaccinated.








La propia Junta corrige a Juan Marín: el 72% de los ingresados en UCI por Covid no son negacionistas


Los consejeros de la Presidencia y Salud rectifican las cifras del vicepresidente y señalan que hay un 63% de hospitalizados que no están vacunados, pero por varias causas: hay quien se ha negado, pero también pautas incompletas y jóvenes a los que todavía no les tocaba




www.eldiario.es


----------



## kaipa

Spanish news is ablaze with the new data involving infection rate. Catalunya is 3.000 per 100.000 for 19- 30 age group and its UCI is at 21%. Something is going to happen before weekend. Doubt they will close borders but almost certainly curfews will need to be brought back to prevent the youngsters partying. The problem is the kids are saying they wont stop as they feel they have suffered the most in order to give freedom to the pensioners who all get to have their cake and eat it. I imagine the botellones will just happen during the day if they try and impose curfews.


----------



## Overandout

kaipa said:


> Spanish news is ablaze with the new data involving infection rate. Catalunya is 3.000 per 100.000 for 19- 30 age group and its UCI is at 21%. Something is going to happen before weekend. Doubt they will close borders but almost certainly curfews will need to be brought back to prevent the youngsters partying. The problem is the kids are saying they wont stop as they feel they have suffered the most in order to give freedom to the pensioners who all get to have their cake and eat it. I imagine the botellones will just happen during the day if they try and impose curfews.


Exactly, if the infection rate was 3,000 per 100,000 in the 60+ age group, the UCIs would be at 150% and there would be corpses piling up in the hospitals.
The young are going to infect each other however the authorities try to stop them.
My oldest is only 13 so hasn't quite to the highest risk category yet, but if he's going to get infected (which of course he will at some point) I would rather it be sooner when we, his parents and his grandparents are recently vaccinated, than in January next year when our resitance to the effects of the virus will be tailing off.


----------



## kaipa

La explosión de contagios empieza a impactar en los hospitales: "Es como revivir el verano pasado"


La proporción sigue siendo menor que en anteriores olas gracias a la vacunación, pero los ingresos han subido un 61,4% respecto a la semana anterior y algunos hospitales recuperan los módulos COVID que ya habían cerrado




www.eldiario.es





If anyone has any doubts about the situation in Spain it's time to wake up. We now have a level of infection of 500 per 100.000. This inevitably is resulting in higher deaths and hospitalizations. Now many argue its irrelevant that we need to learn to live with Covid. Well what that means is that we will all be living with restrictions again by end of August. Schools will be online, people will be on ERTEs for another year, travel will be blocked. We should have waited until the vaccination process was complete instead of catering to desires of greedy business and selfish adults


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> La explosión de contagios empieza a impactar en los hospitales: "Es como revivir el verano pasado"
> 
> 
> La proporción sigue siendo menor que en anteriores olas gracias a la vacunación, pero los ingresos han subido un 61,4% respecto a la semana anterior y algunos hospitales recuperan los módulos COVID que ya habían cerrado
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.eldiario.es
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If anyone has any doubts about the situation in Spain it's time to wake up. We now have a level of infection of 500 per 100.000. This inevitably is resulting in higher deaths and hospitalizations. Now many argue its irrelevant that we need to learn to live with Covid. Well what that means is that we will all be living with restrictions again by end of August. Schools will be online, people will be on ERTEs for another year, travel will be blocked. We should have waited until the vaccination process was complete instead of catering to desires of greedy business and selfish adults


Yes, hospitalisations, those in ICU & deaths must logically rise as cases rise. 

However, the percentage of cases in hospital & ICU is now extremely low when compared to when we had similar figures for active cases previously.

Figures for the comunidad valenciana are published daily. 
The most recent (13/7 - the site will be updated for 14/7 later today):


Active cases 19.423
In hospital 390. +/- 2% of active cases
In ICU 54. +/- 0.3% of active cases. +/- 14% of those in hospital.


----------



## kaipa

But in Catalonia UCI is 21% and increasing. The point is when do you take action? If you leave it too long then you have opened the flood gates and it is too late. Valencia has gone from one of the lowest levels of infection in Spain at the beginning of July to now one of the highest. It is going to soon have an explosion in hospitalizations and by then such extreme measures will be required that it will affect the internal tourism which, although not what it wants in a perfect world, is better than nothing. They need a community wide curfew and strict policing of crowds until they have vaccinated enough folk to be able to reduce the transmission rate . Once that point is reached can we say we have done all that can be done. France is reporting that the Beta virus is starting to occur in various communities. Experience tells us that if they dont act immediately it will be in Spain soon and then this whole thing starts again. Close the borders now except for essential travel. Allow folk within countries to enjoy their freedoms with some restrictions and be patient and stop listening to the likes of Ryanair etc who are not remotely interested in helping people but solely in making vast profits in the way they used to


----------



## jeff9

I agree allowing everybody into Spain has made Marbella that had almost no cases likely to go over 1000/100000 cases today as we were at 990 yesterday. I have no clue with all the tourists here they would try to close access in and out. They really should have stopped access over a week ago. People in Spain likely can't even travel with the way it is going and that should never have been a problem again.


----------



## Alcalaina

Don't know about Marbella, but certainly the problem in Mallorca and Conil on the CDL was students on their end-of-year p1ss-ups - they travel to coastal resorts from all over Spain to party. And of course none of them had been vaccinated, and they aren't tested unless they show symptoms or have been in contact with someone who tested positive. A recipe for disaster really.


----------



## Isobella

jeff9 said:


> I agree allowing everybody into Spain has made Marbella that had almost no cases likely to go over 1000/100000 cases today as we were at 990 yesterday. I have no clue with all the tourists here they would try to close access in and out. They really should have stopped access over a week ago. People in Spain likely can't even travel with the way it is going and that should never have been a problem again.


I lived in Marbella for years and in July/August the majority of visitors were from the North of Spain, many having second homes there.


----------



## jeff9

Isobella said:


> I lived in Marbella for years and in July/August the majority of visitors were from the North of Spain, many having second homes there.


I run daily and a majority of walkers past are not speaking Spanish. That is passing over 100 people a day so unless North of Spain doesn't speak Spanish that is not the people here.


----------



## kaipa

Valencia says expects 240,000 Brits to arrive!!! Now they might well be double vaccinated and tested but you can bet that some will become infected and pass that to others and so on pushing the infection levels up and providing more opportunities for variants to exist. We know this because the scientists have had a year to get to grips with the data and their modelling is fairly accurate now. As usual though the narrative is now being controlled by politicians and big business. They spin us the usual lies to make it look like they are taking these difficult decisions to maintain are economic wellbeing but in reality it's about huge profits most of which does not filter down into wage packets. Do you really think the CEO of Ryanair is having problems paying his electricity bill or cutting down on his supermarket purchases? Hes pissed off he has lost a year of humongous money that's all.


----------



## blondebob

They may arrive.........but will they get back on schedule or a Portuguese style scramble


----------



## jeff9

It will be interesting to see how the government responses as we are now over 1000 in Marbella so that means area should not allow people in or out. This is ridiculous by government to not wait until more were vaccinated now they have a real mess. Estepona is close as at almost 900 too.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jeff9 said:


> It will be interesting to see how the government responses as we are now over 1000 in Marbella so that means area should not allow people in or out. This is ridiculous by government to not wait until more were vaccinated now they have a real mess. Estepona is close as at almost 900 too.


The government has been taken to court for putting the "estado de alarma" in place and for putting restrictions of movement in place. What are they supposed to do?


----------



## jeff9

Pesky Wesky said:


> The government has been taken to court for putting the "estado de alarma" in place and for putting restrictions of movement in place. What are they supposed to do?


Not allow all the tourists in that had no vaccination or PCR test required. There were only a small number of cases here by first part of June now all the tourists and it is a complete mess. 
How we have no controls in place here at this point is confusing. I know Valencia and Barcelona already went back to nightly curfews. 
I would not have restricted residents of Spain, but they didn't need to allow all the others in until they got to 70-80% vaccination which was supposed to be their plan.
Now they will likely get to restrict residents again.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jeff9 said:


> Not allow all the tourists in that had no vaccination or PCR test required. There were only a small number of cases here by first part of June now all the tourists and it is a complete mess.
> How we have no controls in place here at this point is confusing. I know Valencia and Barcelona already went back to nightly curfews.
> I would not have restricted residents of Spain, but they didn't need to allow all the others in until they got to 70-80% vaccination which was supposed to be their plan.
> Now they will likely get to restrict residents again.


So just get everyone back in court again basically. The government can't win. What it does is wrong and so is what it doesn't do. Meanwhile there are plenty of people who know how to do things "right"


----------



## jeff9

Pesky Wesky said:


> So just get everyone back in court again basically. The government can't win. What it does is wrong and so is what it doesn't do. Meanwhile there are plenty of people who know how to do things "right"


Obviously, not enough as hospitals are getting filled up with cases. 
They didn't do their job on allowing people into Spain with no proof of anything just get on a plane etc. and we won't check if you are contagious. 
I agree them having to put controls is wrong, but if they don't stop the inflow of cases and now a lot of people are getting sick. 
I thought I could enjoy my summer and go visit places since vaccinated, but knowing they can lockdown area anytime hard to do anything.


----------



## kaipa

jeff9 said:


> It will be interesting to see how the government responses as we are now over 1000 in Marbella so that means area should not allow people in or out. This is ridiculous by government to not wait until more were vaccinated now they have a real mess. Estepona is close as at almost 900 too.


Unfortunately central government has moved on to other matters than the pandemic. Local regions' reactions are purely based on whether they need tourism or not. Places like Cantabria, Pais Basco, Catalunya dont rely so heavily on external tourism which explains why they are applying more restrictions and seem more worried. Canaries got knocked back on the curfew and Valencia seem to be trying to focus on just towns where infection rates are high so as not to close down the coastal resorts ( which strangely appear to be very low). I think the idea is to do nothing until September then full blown panic once the season is over.


----------



## jeff9

kaipa said:


> Unfortunately central government has moved on to other matters than the pandemic. Local regions' reactions are purely based on whether they need tourism or not. Places like Cantabria, Pais Basco, Catalunya dont rely so heavily on external tourism which explains why they are applying more restrictions and seem more worried. Canaries got knocked back on the curfew and Valencia seem to be trying to focus on just towns where infection rates are high so as not to close down the coastal resorts ( which strangely appear to be very low). I think the idea is to do nothing until September then full blown panic once the season is over.


If they put hospital at capacity will show it was a wise idea.
I don't worry myself as I run daily, but plenty of unhealthy people I see walking daily.


----------



## jimenato

Pesky Wesky said:


> So just get everyone back in court again basically. The government can't win. What it does is wrong and so is what it doesn't do. Meanwhile there are plenty of people who know how to do things "right"


This is so true.

Governments of all kinds are being pulled all ways by this and whatever they do will be wrong for one group or another. They can't win whatever they do.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jeff9 said:


> If they put hospital at capacity will show it was a wise idea.
> I don't worry myself as I run daily, but plenty of unhealthy people I see walking daily.


"I don't worry myself as I run daily" ??
Running is going to prevent you from getting Covid is it?
Perhaps you should sell that idea to the government.
No, to the WHO.


----------



## jeff9

Pesky Wesky said:


> "I don't worry myself as I run daily" ??
> Running is going to prevent you from getting Covid is it?
> Perhaps you should sell that idea to the government.
> No, to the WHO.


You are probably one who will get it and go to the ICU. /SNIP/


----------



## tardigrade

Are you running behind someone? Do you wear a mask when running? Cover your eyes? - the virus could enter thru them.

Spain choose to open up. Not a good ideal but all you can do is live with it.


----------



## kaipa

jeff9 said:


> You are probably one who will get it and go to the ICU. I don't enjoy smart asses and can tell you must be.
> I'm sure you will get it and have fun at the hospital


But it is a strange comment. Do you really mean that running ( being fit) prevents you getting the virus? That will reassure the organisers in Japan!!


----------



## jeff9

kaipa said:


> But it is a strange comment. Do you really mean that running ( being fit) prevents you getting the virus? That will reassure the organisers in Japan!!


It is saying if you are in shape you will not likely get sick enough to need hospitalization. Of course, some people are just ridiculous.
If you are overweight your chances are greater to get covid and need to be hospitalized and possible ICU.
Nothing was strange it comment other than the idiot response from pesky


----------



## tardigrade

jeff9 said:


> If you are overweight your chances are greater to get covid and need to be hospitalized and possible ICU.


Part of that is not true at all jeffery.. So a fat person never leaves his/her abode except for basic goods but a fit running person who goes out and mingles, runs without a mask will have less of a chance of catching it than a hermit fat person?

Where are you living?


----------



## tardigrade

I do not think this virus cares if you are fat or a healthy runner.


----------



## jeff9

It cares as far as if you need to be hospitalized or go to ICU. If you are in shape the chances are much lower. Of course, you probably believe WHO too that all Americans know are worthless


----------



## lard_ascending

An aquaintance of mine who is a fitness-mad karate instructor and runs 10km every day caught it from his asymptomatic 10-year old son back in March. He hadn't been vaccinated and was on his back for 10 days. He still hasn't recovered completely. So fitness doesn't necessarily provide protection although better to be fit than not!


----------



## tardigrade

But what is the difference in healthy runner jeff and fat guy? Both will still catch it. It is not going to pass over you because you are healthy and the other one is not. It does not care who it infects, you might but the virus does not.


----------



## kalohi

jeff9 said:


> It is saying if you are in shape you will not likely get sick enough to need hospitalization. Of course, some people are just ridiculous.
> If you are overweight your chances are greater to get covid and need to be hospitalized and possible ICU.
> Nothing was strange it comment other than the idiot response from pesky


I personally know 3 very fit and active people (all runners) who caught a serious case of Covid and ended up hospitalized. One of them is a close personal friend of my husband's, and he ended up in the ICU with a ventilator down his throat - fortunately he recovered although 2 months later he still gets easily winded. For me your attitude belittles the suffering and anguish that these people and their loved ones have gone through. Serious Covid is NOT only a disease of the overweight - please don't be spreading this false idea.


----------



## tardigrade

I am surprised he did not include minorities in his assessment.


----------



## Alcalaina

Breaking news - Spain is not getting any more doses of Astra Zeneca vaccine after the rest of the second doses have been given. It will give surplus supplies to Covax.








Directo | España dejará de recibir y distribuir más dosis de Astrazeneca"


La vacuna de AstraZeneca contra la covid-19 dejará de recibirse y&nbsp; distribuirse en España, como adelanta la Cadena Ser. Las dosis que faltan por poner se pedirán. Hay más de un millón de personas mayores de 60 años que están esperando la segunda dosis.&nbsp;




www.publico.es


----------



## tardigrade

They should throw them away.. They seem useless.


----------



## Megsmum

tardigrade said:


> I am surprised he did not include minorities in his assessment.


Give him time


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jeff9 said:


> You are probably one who will get it and go to the ICU. /SNIP/


I'm a runner too, so I should be ok
Wonder how a client of mine came down with it though, in May of this year, in fact his 2 kids, his wife and himself caught it. He's a marathon runner, he was actually in training for his next Marathon in September. He's been told his heart has been affected...


----------



## tardigrade

Pesky Wesky said:


> He's been told his heart has been affected...


that is the situation with the children now catching the virus. Enlarged organs.. 
Will the vaccine be better in the long run for the kiddies? That is a question nobody knows sadly..


----------



## blondebob

On Monday, the Ministry of Health added a total of 61,628 new positive cases to its statistics..........Blimey this has shot up









Spain's coronavirus incidence rate shoots up to 599


Spain's cumulative incidence rate for Covid-19 has risen to 569.69 cases per 100,000 inhabitants in 14 days on Monday (19 July), an increase of 62 points over the weekend.




www.surinenglish.com


----------



## Alcalaina

Andalucia is proposing a curfew and tighter restrictions in towns with more than 1,000 per 100,000 cases. Of course, these will need to be ratified by the courts.








Andalucía propone un toque de queda de 2 a 7 de la mañana para frenar el impacto de la quinta ola


El Ejecutivo andaluz, asesorado por el conocido 'comité de expertos', ha adoptado nuevas restricciones contra la Covid-19 después de más de dos meses sin ponerle freno al avance de los casos. La limitación de movilidad tiene que ser ratificada por el Tribunal Superior de Justicia de Andalucía




www.eldiario.es


----------



## Megsmum

We have several local villages in lockdown here for 14 days but courts denied curfew notice

Do they go to court for lockdown or just curfews ?


----------



## tardigrade

Both.


----------



## tardigrade

Australia had 18 cases and locked down the whole department/state... I would seriously be looking to get off that big island if I lived there.


----------



## Barriej

tardigrade said:


> Australia had 18 cases and locked down the whole department/state... I would seriously be looking to get off that big island if I lived there.


My daughter lives inland of Brisbane (3 hours drive) and she was saying that hardly anyone has been vaccinated, so every time someone is allowed back in with covid they panic. Sydney shut down after two cases were reported (both airline staff)
She tried telling a couple of friends the other day that 4 cases would be laughed at in any other part of the world but not Australia, lets shut down the whole state. They have a different mindset there.
She was also saying that Australia have only just started ordering vaccines as well (and seeing as its Flu season in Australia I would have thought they would have been more on the ball)

Anyway back to Spain. We have still had no word of our vaccinations, I got the lady who translates for us to check at the health centre and she was told, we are in the system but we have to be patient. 
We are not the only ones on private healthcare who have asked to be done in our town. It seems we are all in the same boat (and its not just because we are Brits as a Dutch friend is also waiting)

For my own 2c I would expect none of the areas that rely on tourists to ask for curfews as the numbers grow, but would expect them to maybe bring the closing times of the bars to 11pm. 
I can't see the point of stopping alcohol purchases at 8pm either, that makes no sense to me.

Was in Carrefour Finestrat earlier and the security guard was having a go at some kids who wandered in without face masks.


----------



## tardigrade

I cannot see why you are having problems, especially in the Valencian community.
I went to the red cross office here, they signed me up and 4 days later I had my J&J vaccine. The same with a friend who lives in the far, northwest corner who is not registered at the town hall nor has health insurance - showed up at the red cross and was given an appointment after signing the waiver.


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## Barriej

tardigrade said:


> I cannot see why you are having problems, especially in the Valencian community.
> I went to the red cross office here, they signed me up and 4 days later I had my J&J vaccine. The same with a friend who lives in the far, northwest corner who is not registered at the town hall nor has health insurance - showed up at the red cross and was given an appointment after signing the waiver.


We signed up for a temporary sip card as we still have private. The staff at the centre are not very helpful and the doctor there has been denounced twice for treating foreigners badly (he was moved from La Nucia for the same issues). 
The receptionist there is also very rude.
I will stick to private care while we live in this area as its still cheaper than the convenio.

We we originally told (via our interpreter, who is native Spanish) that all 'immigrants' were being made to wait.
Like most things here its not right but the people you argue with are the ones interpreting the rules. 
My FIL (who has been here 20 years) along with others over 75 waited for longer than they should have for the first dose. 
In the end he went down to the centre in Benidorm and they did it while he waited, the health centre contacted him a week after and when he said he had the first dose they told him to go back to Benidorm for the second one as they were taking him off their list.

Im not that bothered how long it takes, as we don't have any health issues and don't come into contact with many people. 
And Im more than happy to wear my mask both outside and in. 
I even contacted our healthcare company and they said that they have asked if they can administer the vaccines to their customers and were told no by the Government.
You would think that any route to full vaccination would be a good one and it would save the Spanish system money.

Spose I might find out where the nearest Red Cross office is and see what they can do.


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## tardigrade

Calle: CALLE RUZAFA. EDIF. CARRASCO - APTDO. 262 
CP: 3500
966808934
[email protected]


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## Overandout

The important figures to follow from now on might well be the level of infections, not the level of vaccinations.

I am currently sitting in a 100% staffed office for the fist time since March 2020, it is an odd sensation but to think that it will not generate an outbreak is naive.

Hopefully if we can transition to minimal restrictions quickly, the burst in infections will peak before Christmas and not cause us too much disruption.


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## Alcalaina

Overandout said:


> The important figures to follow from now on might well be the level of infections, not the level of vaccinations.
> 
> I am currently sitting in a 100% staffed office for the fist time since March 2020, it is an odd sensation but to think that it will not generate an outbreak is naive.
> 
> Hopefully if we can transition to minimal restrictions quickly, the burst in infections will peak before Christmas and not cause us too much disruption.


That must feel strange!

Of course the level of infections is just as important as vaccinations, but the two are linked. Due to the vaccinations, most infections are mild or asymptomatic. If there is a spike in serious cases they will reintroduce restrictions.


----------



## Overandout

Alcalaina said:


> That must feel strange!
> 
> Of course the level of infections is just as important as vaccinations, but the two are linked. Due to the vaccinations, most infections are mild or asymptomatic. If there is a spike in serious cases they will reintroduce restrictions.


Yes it's very strange having someone sat right next to you and so many people everywhere all of a sudden. There was a huge queue at the lobby this morning to get a lift up the upper floors though, and as I got close to the front I could see that people were still only going in 4 at a time (the lift design capacity is 22 people, but to maintain social distancing the maximum was reduced to 4 during the restrictions, but there is now no restriction).
The guy in front of me stopped when 4 people got in the lift so I said politely "you know that the restrictions of lift capacity have been removed" to which he replied that he knew that, but was being prudent... 
Prudent is good of course and I don't think I'd be comfortable with 22 people in there (although having gone to the office in the Metro I'm not sure how much worse a lift with 22 people really would be) but I really can't see how we can have a 100% occupied office and try to maintain only 20% occupancy in the lifts, toilets, kitchens etc. We can't partially go back to normal, it won't work, it has to be all or nothing.

In terms of the spike in infections I think that it is inevitable, but in the UK (correct me if I'm wrong) they haven't seen the need to reintroduce any restrictions?


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## Alcalaina

Overandout said:


> In terms of the spike in infections I think that it is inevitable, but in the UK (correct me if I'm wrong) they haven't seen the need to reintroduce any restrictions?


I don’t know much about infection rates in the U.K. at the moment but doesn’t Boris’s Winter Plan includes the possibility of reintroducing restrictions?

In Andalucia, restrictions are linked to the stats. Since we have just fallen below 50 cases per 100,000 we are now entering Level 0, no restrictions, but the Junta has made it clear that if the numbers rise again, restrictions will return.


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## tardigrade

Alcalaina said:


> In Andalucia, restrictions are linked to the stats. Since we have just fallen below 50 cases per 100,000 we are now entering Level 0, no restrictions, but the Junta has made it clear that if the numbers rise again, restrictions will return.


Does this include mask wearing interior and maintaining 1,5m distance out of doors ? If not, then there are restrictions still it is just the local restrictions that are lifted; ie. opening hours of nightlife, bar service, restaurant and shop customer capacities.(e) etc.etc.(/e)


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## tardigrade

This article seems to say almost half of the region and on Oct 1. but does not mention the federal law requiring masks









Andalucia removes all Covid restrictions for level 0 areas


Andalucia removes all Covid restrictions. Andalucía will be in phase 0 alert for Covid from this Friday, September 30. The President of the




www.euroweeklynews.com


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## Alcalaina

tardigrade said:


> This article seems to say almost half of the region and on Oct 1. but does not mention the federal law requiring masks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andalucia removes all Covid restrictions for level 0 areas
> 
> 
> Andalucia removes all Covid restrictions. Andalucía will be in phase 0 alert for Covid from this Friday, September 30. The President of the
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.euroweeklynews.com


The federal law regarding masks has not changed. It might not be mentioned by Euro Weekly News but it certainly was when the President of the Junta de Andalucia announced the changes on TV, along with the need to maintain social distancing and using hand sanitiser.


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## kaipa

I notice today they are reporting a slight increase in cases in Spain.At the same time the UK seems to geeting alot of infections and two of my friends ( fully vaccinated) have it with one claiming it is the second time!!


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## Overandout

Yes, I am quite worried about Ayuso's relaxation of masks in schools, I will try to make sure my kids still wear them, especially the younger one who is not vaccinated.
But in reality the danger of Ayuso's latest move is not that school kids get ill they will just become transmitters of the virus to parents and grandparents with whom they meet without masks and distancing, just like the UK. Madrid might end up like a little Britain!


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## kaipa

Honestly she represents the worse side of politics. Her behaviour really is shameful and works only to bring out hatred and bitterness in everyone.


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## tardigrade

Another example of why Britian / the UK should be "red" and not allowed in. They say they do not know if the tourists are causing it but that is to just save face.



https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2021/10/13/benidorm-covid-19-infection-rate-is-three-times-higher-than-spains-national-average/



Another example..









Benidorm rising incidence rate coincides with return of Brit holidaymakers


Benidorm rising incidence rate coincides with return of Brit holidaymakers. Benidorm has currently an incidence rate of 215 per 100,000




www.euroweeklynews.com


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## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> Yes, I am quite worried about Ayuso's relaxation of masks in schools, I will try to make sure my kids still wear them, especially the younger one who is not vaccinated.
> But in reality the danger of Ayuso's latest move is not that school kids get ill they will just become transmitters of the virus to parents and grandparents with whom they meet without masks and distancing, just like the UK. Madrid might end up like a little Britain!


Ayuso has said that children don't need to wear the masks at breaktime in schools. They still have to wear them inside. This actually goes along with current legislation where we are all required to wear masks inside, but not outside, doesn't it?
https://elpais.com/espana/madrid/20...s-y-como-prometer-medidas-que-ya-existen.html


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## Overandout

Masks are not obligatory outside except when social distancing can't be maintained. That's why it is still obligatory on railway station platforms for example. Many (me included) think that a school playground is one of the places where social distancing can't be maintained and therefore masks should still be obligatory.


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## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> Masks are not obligatory outside except when social distancing can't be maintained. That's why it is still obligatory on railway station platforms for example. Many (me included) think that a school playground is one of the places where social distancing can't be maintained and therefore masks should still be obligatory.


I agree with you, but of all the ridiculous, damaging and wayward things that Ayuso has said this is not actually so far off the board. She has said they can take their masks off when they are outside and can keep a distance of 1.5 metres which is in line with current legislation.
Of course, everyone sane knows that that isn't possible, but that's not actually why she is being criticised. The criticisms come mainly from the way she has done it ie once again doing it her way with no thoughts of agreement with other regional areas, and no discussion with the people that this will actually affect like the 2 school teachers in my house. OH has a continual battle with SS keeping their mask on and correctly placed over mouth and nose with complaints of I can't breathe, it's uncomfortable etc implying that everyone else is happy to wear the mask and they are the only ones "suffering".
Where I am, out of Madrid, masks are still being worn widely in urban streets, not so on country paths. When I've been to Madrid recently I've perceived far fewer people wearing masks in the street.


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## tardigrade

UK citizens should not be allowed to enter the EU









Preocupación por el aumento de los contagios de covid-19 en Benidorm: 286 de incidencia, la mayoría son ingleses


La consejera valenciana de Sanidad, Ana Barceló, ha hecho este martes un llamamiento al 10% de la población susceptible de recibir la vacuna contra la covid que todavía no se ha vacunado y se ha mostrado preocupada por el incremento de casos de covid-19 en la localidad alicantina de Benidorm.




www.20minutos.es


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## tardigrade

If you need it in English









Finger pointed at UK tourists after Benidorm Covid cases spike


Finger pointed at UK tourists after Benidorm Covid cases spike. Brits have returned to Spain bringing life back to Benidorm, but health officials are




www.euroweeklynews.com


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## Roy C

tardigrade said:


> UK citizens should not be allowed to enter the EU
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Preocupación por el aumento de los contagios de covid-19 en Benidorm: 286 de incidencia, la mayoría son ingleses
> 
> 
> La consejera valenciana de Sanidad, Ana Barceló, ha hecho este martes un llamamiento al 10% de la población susceptible de recibir la vacuna contra la covid que todavía no se ha vacunado y se ha mostrado preocupada por el incremento de casos de covid-19 en la localidad alicantina de Benidorm.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.20minutos.es


That would be difficult for UK citizens with residency in Spain to get back in , would it not?


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## tardigrade

Roy C said:


> That would be difficult for UK citizens with residency in Spain to get back in , would it not?


They should not have been allowed to go to the island.


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## Overandout

I think you are confusing citizenship with residency.

It's only a matter of time until Spain or the EU start restricting travel from the UK. Despite it being against my own personal interests I think it is sadly necessary. I have a family visit booked for Xmas but I don't expect to be able to go.


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## Alcalaina

tardigrade said:


> They should not have been allowed to go to the island.


??? Benidorm is not an island.


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## Overandout

I think Tardigrade was referring to the UK as the Island. i.e. Spain should have restricted travel from UK (be it holiday makers or residents returning).


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## Chopera

So, with the central EU being overwhelmed by another wave of covid that appears to be coursing its way through France as well now, what's in store for Spain?

So far it seems the over 60s have been receiving boosters, but is that enough to keep hospitalisations low enough? Spain has a high vaccination rate so we might not get it so bad but, as ever, that might also depend on which region of Spain you live in.


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## Alcalaina

Spain has a much higher vaccination rate among elderly and vulnerable people than countries such as Germany, where "vaccine hesitancy" is more evenly distributed among age groups. This is a possible reason why the latest wave hasn't resulted (so far) in soaring death rates here.


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## Overandout

Chopera said:


> I agree with the rest of what you said, apart fom this bit. Why do you think the UK pretended covid had gone away? I think the UK accepted that covid is not going away, and we've got to learn to live with it. Hence it was tolerant of higher case counts and hospitalisations over summer, and is possibly now benefitting from more people having been infected and having natural immunity (herd immunity if you like?) Maybe the UK isn't in a good a place as Spain, but it seems to be in a better place than most of the EU right now.


When I was there in October the sensation of ignorance to risk was massive. I was staying in a hotel, nobody wore masks when in common spaces, even at the buffet breakfast people were wandering about amongst open food without masks, even coughing without coving their mouths.

This is, in my opinion, a direct result of the governemy taking away the restrictions and limitations too early. Boris himself appeared in a hospital talking to masked up doctors without one on himself.

This is a message that has been selected intentionally and I don't think that it is based on medical grounds (most of the advisors said that the governmenmt shouldn't remove the restrictions).

That's why I posted the quoted part of my message.


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## kaipa

The risks are now high in Navarra and Pais Vasco. It is creeping up in other communities as well. As the temperature drops more people occupy indoor areas with little ventilation. Spain probably has done better because of the climate being milder for longer in many parts. Clearly it will climb in the next few months and the UCIs will start to struggle. The problem will be as the various communities try and resist bringing in restrictions in the festive months. Valencia is desperately trying not to bring in the need for vaccine proof for ocios and restaurantes but it looks very likely it will happen. Last week 3 teachers in my son's school were off because of Covid and the school had no replacements so my son justcame home rather than sit in the classroomwith nothing to do and no supervision. It is not media hype. It is still everywhere but vaccinations reduce the pressure on the healthcare system and that is why we have a responsibility to try and accept restrictions.


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## kaipa

Woke up today to hear that a new variant has been detected in South Africa. I'm no scientist so I won't pretend to understand it but it could possibly be the mutation than avoids the vaccines. I imagine this could be the start of another round of restrictions as it is hard to see how they can control it. Spain is going to have to admit it cant be so exposed as it is in order to keep tourism alive. Surely they are going to have to start testing arrivals?


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## xabiaxica

*VALENCIA REGION*








*BREAKING NEWS: Puig announces that a COVID passport will be required to enter bars and restaurants in Valencian region.*
_The measure needs to be endorsed by the regional Supreme Court of Justice but, if approved, it will be implemented by the December "puente" weekend._










Puig announces that a COVID passport will be required to enter bars and restaurants in Valencian region


The measure needs to be endorsed by the regional Supreme Court of Justice but, if approved, it will be implemented by the December "puente" weekend.




www.javeamigos.com







I believe that the courts in Cataluña have approved the same move for that region, & it is expected that Valencia will do the same.


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## Do28

xabiaxica said:


> *VALENCIA REGION*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *BREAKING NEWS: Puig announces that a COVID passport will be required to enter bars and restaurants in Valencian region.*
> _The measure needs to be endorsed by the regional Supreme Court of Justice but, if approved, it will be implemented by the December "puente" weekend._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Puig announces that a COVID passport will be required to enter bars and restaurants in Valencian region
> 
> 
> The measure needs to be endorsed by the regional Supreme Court of Justice but, if approved, it will be implemented by the December "puente" weekend.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.javeamigos.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that the courts in Cataluña have approved the same move for that region, & it is expected that Valencia will do the same.


Here comes the two tier society and the police state.....


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## Overandout

Do28 said:


> Here comes the two tier society and the police state.....


I certainly hope so.

But, only on Monday the courts in País Vasco rejected a similar proposal, so sadly it might not be allowed.

So those of us who do all we can to protect ourselves and others again have to live in fear of the ignorant who claim human rights as an excuse for egotistical risk taking.


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## kaipa

Do28 said:


> Here comes the two tier society and the police state.....


Alternatively here comes responsible leadership which reminds people as John Stuart Mill said : your right to liberty requires the respect of the other's. You dont need to live in Spain if you dont like it.


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## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> Alternatively here comes responsible leadership which reminds people as John Stuart Mill said : your right to liberty requires the respect of the other's. You dont need to live in Spain if you dont like it.


A choice of having to prove vaccination or the interiors of bars, restaurants etc. being closed at this time of year - I know which makes the most sense to me!


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## Do28

kaipa said:


> Alternatively here comes responsible leadership which reminds people as John Stuart Mill said : your right to liberty requires the respect of the other's. You dont need to live in Spain if you dont like it.


I guess you missed the point entirely........


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## kaipa

Watching the Spanish news and they are saying that Israel is very worried about the new variant and appear to saying they might take drastic action in a matter or days!!. What does that mean???? Admittedly the day time programs do get a bit over- excited. Let's hope so.


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## xabiaxica

Qué comunidades tienen implantado el pasaporte COVID estas Navidades


Galicia, Aragón, Baleares, Murcia, Catalunya, Comunitat Valenciana, Andalucía, Canarias y Navarra ya cuentan con el aval de sus tribunales superiores de Justicia; en Euskadi el Supremo ha dado luz verde tras el primer revés judicial




www.eldiario.es


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## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> Alternatively here comes responsible leadership which reminds people as John Stuart Mill said :* your right to liberty requires the respect of the other's*. You dont need to live in Spain if you dont like it.


Paraphrased by Ximo Puig, Presdent of the Valencian community



> La llibertat exieix respetar els altres. No existeix el dret a contagiar ni a saturar hospitals.



In English


> Freedom demands respect for others. There is no right to infect or saturate hospitals.


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## Do28

Fascinating censorship of posts........ I assume that people don't like reminding of human history?


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## xabiaxica

Do28 said:


> Fascinating censorship of posts........ I assume that people don't like reminding of human history?


This thread is focussed only on how Spain is dealing with the virus.

The posts to which I imagine you refer have simply been moved to a more appropriate thread. That isn't censorship. Click the link below.









Covid19 outside Spain


I'm not sure it's media hype in the countries where hospitalisations have shot up, and lockdowns have been reintroduced. Even if the death rate remains lowish, if the hospitals fill up then they'll lock down. I'm scratching my head about The Netherlands in particular, which has vaccinated 72% of...




www.expatforum.com


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## xabiaxica

As of Wednesday December 1st, only vaccinated vistiors from the UK & Northern Ireland will be permitted to enter Spain, just as is the case for visitors from any other non-EU country









Los ingleses no vacunados ya no podrán entrar a España solo con PCR


Además, crea una nueva categoría de países alto riesgo, de cara a la variante Ómicron, desde los que no será suficiente con la vacunación, sino que tendrán que contar con prueba negativa.




civio.es


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## Megsmum

xabiaxica said:


> As of Wednesday December 1st, only vaccinated vistiors from the UK & Northern Ireland will be permitted to enter Spain, just as is the case for visitors from any other non-EU country
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Los ingleses no vacunados ya no podrán entrar a España solo con PCR
> 
> 
> Además, crea una nueva categoría de países alto riesgo, de cara a la variante Ómicron, desde los que no será suficiente con la vacunación, sino que tendrán que contar con prueba negativa.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> civio.es



Hi read the BOE. Are under 12s still exempt? Can't see clarification of that


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## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> Hi read the BOE. Are under 12s still exempt? Can't see clarification of that


I believe so, but as Spain is now discussing vaccinating under 12s, that could change if/when that happens.


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## Megsmum

xabiaxica said:


> I believe so, but as Spain is now discussing vaccinating under 12s, that could change if/when that happens.


Possibly but nothing for under 12 approved yet plus this decree is from December 1st through to 31st December. Whilst I agree it might be extended, I suspect this is more about Xmas infection rates partying etc. I've always believed that only fully vaccinated should travel anyway these variants are here to stay this is the new norm


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## kaipa

Surely Spain will have to start testing international arrivals? Seems crazy that you need only show a covid passport to enter. Im booked to visit uk over Christmas with my son so he can visit his Gran ( been 2 years since she last saw him). Already paid for LFT as that was requirement. Now need to buy the PCR tests. Arriving 24 so no idea if the labs, couriers will be operating over Christmas day ( doubt it). Apparently need to isolate until results so that will mean a few days inside( maybe more as I doubt that the testing is really capable of dealing with the numbers of people travelling at Christmas). I understand it though so whilst its annoying it makes sense. Thing is the restrictions once in UK are ridiculously light. Masks on transport and shops? What about all the packed pubs and restaurants? What about the Christmas markets where people drink from cups that recycled and the whole thing is packed in a small area? Hogmanay still going ahead in Edinburgh?


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## sw6252

I received two doses Pfizer vaccine plus booster in the US before arriving Spain and establishing residency here. How do I obtain a COVID Passport as a resident of Spain? I do not have a Social Security number here or healthcare.


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## Tucsonsteve

sw6252 said:


> I received two doses Pfizer vaccine plus booster in the US before arriving Spain and establishing residency here. How do I obtain a COVID Passport as a resident of Spain? I do not have a Social Security number here or healthcare.




I am in Barcelona and not a resident. A couple of weeks ago after reading complaints about the difficulties foreigners who reside here were having with getting a green pass based on domestic vaccination, I abandoned the idea of converting my US CDC record here and went to a pharmacy in France to take care of it. There’s a list of French pharmacies that will do the conversion (for 36 euros) to the pass sanitaire. To my surprise, the first small, out of the way pharmacy that I tried was able to do it. 









Obtenir un passe sanitaire en cas de vaccination à l’étranger


Depuis le 14 mars 2022, le passe vaccinal est levé en France métropo




www.sante.fr






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sw6252

Tucsonsteve said:


> I am in Barcelona and not a resident. A couple of weeks ago after reading complaints about the difficulties foreigners who reside here were having with getting a green pass based on domestic vaccination, I abandoned the idea of converting my US CDC record here and went to a pharmacy in France to take care of it. There’s a list of French pharmacies that will do the conversion (for 36 euros) to the pass sanitaire. To my surprise, the first small, out of the way pharmacy that I tried was able to do it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obtenir un passe sanitaire en cas de vaccination à l’étranger
> 
> 
> Depuis le 14 mars 2022, le passe vaccinal est levé en France métropo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sante.fr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks. I may check that out.


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## ydukes

Hi, we are a couple in our early 70s and are wanting to return to Spain for three months. We have booked flights to Madrid (Feb 26th, 2022) with the intent of spending a few days there and then taking a train to Malaga where we will stay for about 3 months. The Covid virus and these new variants are, of course, making life difficult as we are getting older. I am hoping to get some opinions on where this is going in Spain, in your opinions. I don't want to book 2-3 months of Airbnb to have Spain block US citizens from the country. We are fully vaccinated. I really really really appreciate your thoughts on this.


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## Wibs

Having been double-jabbed, and had the booster jab too (all Pfizer) I booked my ticket back to Blighty for Christmas.

I then went online via the Salud Andlaucia and download my vaccination status. That's when I notice a possible 'fly-in-the-ointment.

The UK Gov website Approved COVID-19 vaccines and countries and territories with approved proof of vaccination says, under the section -
*Vaccine certificates only*
says that Vaccine Certicates must include as a minimum:

your forename and surname(s)
your date of birth
vaccine brand and manufacturer
date of vaccination for every dose
country or territory of vaccination and/or certificate issuer
The 'fly' is the fourth item, date of vaccination for every dose. 

The problem is the Vaccination Certificate I downloaded only has the date of the latest booster jab on it.

I neglected to download certificates after each jab, as I had no plans to travel then.

Do I have a problem? The requirement for the date of every dose does seem clear.

Wibs


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## Do28

Unless its changed within the last couple of days they are only interested in the date of the second dose. My wife went home a couple of days ago no problem and is back again on Friday.

Plus, the only time she is ever asked is by Ryanair at the gate and they just look at the Q code on her phone. Never ever asked in the UK and she travels back and forward twice a month.


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## MataMata

Do28 said:


> Unless its changed within the last couple of days they are only interested in the date of the second dose.


But the post booster certificate does not give that.


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## Chopera

The UK recognises the EU Digital Covid Certificate, which only shows the latest jab date (at least on mine). As it happens, my Salud Madrid certificate shows all 3 dates for my jabs (I have had the booster) anyway, but I assume that for travel to the UK, the EUDCC is sufficient.


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## Overandout

I can't speak for the measures the government might impose on travel of course, and I am not familiar with the situation in Malaga, but in Madrid (which has one of the more relaxed levels of control of all the Spanish Communities) still has a pretty high level of control.
People still wear masks in closed spaces, and if you want to eat outdoors you can so that you are not removing your mask in a closed space.
Even when outdoors a lot of people wear masks when there are a lot of people.
When the first relaxation of measures happened we did notice that some people got a bit too relaxed, but this was quite a restricted "rebellion" among either young people or the older population.
I feel quite comfortable in Madrid as far as Covid is concerned and my own opinion is that the government is doing a good job, but there is of course always a concession towards both allowing trade to continue and the "freedom" argument. We have a high level of vaccination take up at the moment, but I suspect that some people will not take the booster jabs so that rate of protection might decrease a bit.
Luckily we are not seeing a lot of protests against the measures so far and by far the majority accept that the spread of the virus needs to be controlled.


----------



## xabiaxica

xabiaxica said:


> *VALENCIA REGION*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *BREAKING NEWS: Puig announces that a COVID passport will be required to enter bars and restaurants in Valencian region.*
> _The measure needs to be endorsed by the regional Supreme Court of Justice but, if approved, it will be implemented by the December "puente" weekend._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Puig announces that a COVID passport will be required to enter bars and restaurants in Valencian region
> 
> 
> The measure needs to be endorsed by the regional Supreme Court of Justice but, if approved, it will be implemented by the December "puente" weekend.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.javeamigos.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that the courts in Cataluña have approved the same move for that region, & it is expected that Valencia will do the same.


The Valencian Supreme court has authorised this









Superior Court of Justice authorizes use of COVID Certificate/Passport in Comunidad Valenciana


The court agrees that the COVID passport measure is "justified" based on the upward trend of the pandemic curve.




www.javeamigos.com


----------



## Alcalaina

Yesterday Spain banned flights from Southern Africa because of the omicron variant. thus is a precaution, as it’s not yet known how effective vaccines will be against it. So right now it is impossible to predict that far ahead, just hope for the best.

In Andalucía (includng Málaga) the level of restrictions is linked to the number of positive cases per 100,000 people In any given health district. Numbers are rising sharply at the moment (currently around 100 per 100,000 people) so there are likely to be limits on numbers at public events, in bars etc. But hotels can stay open until it reaches the highest level, 1,000 per 100,000.


----------



## blondebob

Alcalaina said:


> Yesterday Spain banned flights from Southern Africa because of the omicron variant.* thus is a precaution, as it’s not yet known how effective vaccines will be against it*. So right now it is impossible to predict that far ahead, just hope for the best.
> 
> In Andalucía (includng Málaga) the level of restrictions is linked to the number of positive cases per 100,000 people In any given health district. Numbers are rising sharply at the moment (currently around 100 per 100,000 people) so there are likely to be limits on numbers at public events, in bars etc. But hotels can stay open until it reaches the highest level, 1,000 per 100,000.


Current vaccines Much less effective apparently and will take months to formulate a new vaccine


----------



## Alcalaina

blondebob said:


> Current vaccines Much less effective apparently and will take months to formulate a new vaccine


That's possible but they won't know for sure until they have sufficient data. Spokespersons for the pharma companies are saying that will take at least two weeks.








South African scientists explore vaccines’ effectiveness against Omicron


Crucial work will study how well current jabs work and whether they need to be updated to tackle new variant




www.theguardian.com


----------



## blondebob

Alcalaina said:


> That's possible but they won't know for sure until they have sufficient data. Spokespersons for the pharma companies are saying that will take at least two weeks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> South African scientists explore vaccines’ effectiveness against Omicron
> 
> 
> Crucial work will study how well current jabs work and whether they need to be updated to tackle new variant
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


I would say more than possible based on what the CEO of Moderna said yesterday. 

The chief executive of Moderna has just predicted that existing COVID-19 vaccines will be much less effective at tackling Omicron than earlier variants of SARS-CoV-2 and warned it would take months before companies can manufacture new variant-specific jabs at scale.
Stéphane Bancel said the high number of Omicron mutations on the spike protein, which the virus uses to infect human cells, and the suspected potential rapid spread of the variant in South Africa, suggested the current crop of COVID-19 vaccines may need to be modified next year to beat Omicron.
_“There is no world, I think, where [the effectiveness] is the same level . . . we had with Delta,” _Bancel said.
He added: “_I think it’s going to be a material drop. I just don’t know how much because we need to wait for the data. But all the scientists I’ve talked to . . . are like ‘this is not going to be good’.”_









Global markets fall after Moderna Omicron warning


Stock markets slide after Moderna boss casts doubt on vaccine effectiveness against new variant.



www.bbc.co.uk













Moderna warns jabs may be less effective against Omicron


The Prime Minister is set to address the nation about compulsory face masks and to urge people to get boosters at a press conference this afternoon. Scotland has confirmed three more Omicron cases




www.dailymail.co.uk












"


----------



## kaipa

Bottom line is none of us know at the moment what effect this new variant will have. Measures have to be taken due to this uncertainty and the knowledge that some countries were slow in doing anything about the Delta variant when it was first discovered. Either way it points to the fact that global vaccination now has to become the priority to try and prevent more mutations.


----------



## *Sunshine*

ydukes said:


> The Covid virus and these new variants are, of course, making life difficult as we are getting older. I am hoping to get some opinions on where this is going in Spain, in your opinions. I don't want to book 2-3 months of Airbnb to have Spain block US citizens from the country. We are fully vaccinated.


Although you and your wife are vaccinated, your country has a very large anti-vax community. For example, if a variant evolves in the US within the next 3 months, the EU will probably quickly impose new restrictions.

I don't think anyone can guarantee that you'll be able to enter the EU in 3 months. Either make sure you can cancel the reservations without penalty or make sure that your insurance will cover you (many new policies explicitly do not cover cancellations due to the pandemic).


----------



## Barriej

*Sunshine* said:


> Although you and your wife are vaccinated, your country has a very large anti-vax community. For example, if a variant evolves in the US within the next 3 months, the EU will probably quickly impose new restrictions.
> 
> I don't think anyone can guarantee that you'll be able to enter the EU in 3 months. Either make sure you can cancel the reservations without penalty or make sure that your insurance will cover you (many new policies explicitly do not cover cancellations due to the pandemic).


I think you are wrong, being vaccinated or not, does not stop the spread. It only determines the severity of your symptoms and the strain you put on the health service in your country.

The ONLY way to ensure it cannot spread in my view, is by testing and isolation, something which most countries last year were banging on about, but now seems to have been consigned to the bin.
My son has had both jabs and he still caught it (from someone else who was also jabbed).

A friend of ours has not been jabbed, but tests himself a couple of times a week. Im happier going for a beer with him than those who think a bit of paper is enough to protect them..

But thats my opinion, everyone else has theirs and I have no issue with that.


----------



## Chopera

We still don't know if the omnicron variant is more benign than the other variants (or not) yet. I've heard it'll take a couple of weeks for sciemtists to get an idea. If it turns out to be relatively benign then we might find restrictions being lifted in many countries.


----------



## Baylucas

Hello..I'm wondering if the general public is being forced to wear masks, either indoors, or outdoors, in the cCosta del Sol area. Thank you


----------



## Joppa

Yes, in indoor areas to which public have access, such as shops, banks, and restaurants and cafes until you sit down. Also on public transport. All these rules are strictly enforced. Not in outdoor areas, though a lot of people still wear them, esp when crowded.


----------



## Barriej

Baylucas said:


> Hello..I'm wondering if the general public is being forced to wear masks, either indoors, or outdoors, in the cCosta del Sol area. Thank you


We wear them inside in shopping centres, banks etc and on transport as Joppa said.

I would not say we were being forced as such, more like its the best thing to do.
We are north of Alicante inland of Albir.

Me and the better half have continued to wear them even when out if there are others around.
I dont in the village as there are only about 200 people and we have not had one case since this started.


----------



## tebo53

Joppa said:


> Yes, in indoor areas to which public have access, such as shops, banks, and restaurants and cafes until you sit down. Also on public transport. All these rules are strictly enforced. Not in outdoor areas, though a lot of people still wear them, esp when crowded.


You are required to wear masks when you can't maintain social distancing especially when in crowded areas such as outdoor markets etc

Steve


----------



## kalohi

Barriej said:


> We wear them inside in shopping centres, banks etc and on transport as Joppa said.
> 
> *I would not say we were being forced as such*, more like its the best thing to do.
> We are north of Alicante inland of Albir.
> 
> Me and the better half have continued to wear them even when out if there are others around.
> I dont in the village as there are only about 200 people and we have not had one case since this started.


In Andalucia we _are_ being forced. It is mandatory to wear a mask indoors (except in private homes) and outdoors when it's not possible to maintain social distance. We are allowed to take our masks off in bars and restaurants while actually eating/drinking. 

Absolutely everyone around here wears a mask when indoors (shops, banks, etc). And a high percentage of people wear one while walking around in the city. Where things are lax is in bars and restaurants. Most people sit down at their table and immediately take their mask off for the duration of their time there.


----------



## xabiaxica

kalohi said:


> In Andalucia we _are_ being forced. It is mandatory to wear a mask indoors (except in private homes) and outdoors when it's not possible to maintain social distance. We are allowed to take our masks off in bars and restaurants while actually eating/drinking.
> 
> Absolutely everyone around here wears a mask when indoors (shops, banks, etc). And a high percentage of people wear one while walking around in the city. Where things are lax is in bars and restaurants. Most people sit down at their table and immediately take their mask off for the duration of their time there.


It's mandatory throughout the country. 

I dare say some people feel that they're being forced to, but the majority simply wear a mask, it has become part of daily life. They know that it's required by law, but they also feel that it's one tool against the virus.

As you say, many wear them even when not required by law.


----------



## snikpoh

Around here (province of Valencia) many CHOOSE to wear a mask everywhere - I certainly do as (IMHO) its the right thing to do.


----------



## tebo53

snikpoh said:


> Around here (province of Valencia) many CHOOSE to wear a mask everywhere - I certainly do as (IMHO) its the right thing to do.


Here in Benidorm there is a 50-50 split who are wearing masks outdoors. The majority of people not wearing masks are visitors/holidaymakers. The local residents, (you can tell who are residents as they are wearing top coats, scarves and hats 😊) generally stick to the mask rules.

Steve


----------



## Barriej

tebo53 said:


> Here in Benidorm there is a 50-50 split who are wearing masks outdoors. The majority of people not wearing masks are visitors/holidaymakers. The local residents, (you can tell who are residents as they are wearing top coats, scarves and hats 😊) generally stick to the mask rules.
> 
> Steve



Same in Albir and Altea. We tend to keep ours on all the time even when walking around.


----------



## ydukes

Thanks for all the response about the virus. so we are determined to come to Spain so now I am wondering:
If we feel like we are getting sick, Covid or ?, Are there English speaking doctors or "urgent care " centers where can go in Malaga and Madrid?
Also, while we are pretty healthy, I do need a chiropractor on a regular basis, especially after a flight. Any recommendations for a chiro. who can do a good strong manipulation?


----------



## Beach buddy

I see that it has now been approved that Covid Passports or negative Covid test results are to be mandatory for entry into bars, restaurants and nightclubs until the 15th January.


----------



## Beach buddy

Beach buddy said:


> I see that it has now been approved that Covid Passports or negative Covid test results are to be mandatory for entry into bars, restaurants and nightclubs until the 15th January.


From Monday 20th December until 15th January


----------



## xabiaxica

Beach buddy said:


> I see that it has now been approved that Covid Passports or negative Covid test results are to be mandatory for entry into bars, restaurants and nightclubs until the 15th January.


In which region?


----------



## Overandout

Not in Madrid, I think I can be sure of that without checking!


----------



## kaipa

La justicia permite la exigencia de pasaporte covid para entrar en bares y restaurantes de Andalucía


La medida estará en vigor hasta el 15 de enero de 2022 y se añade a la obligación de estar vacunado para acceder a las residencias y los hospitales




elpais.com





Looks like Andalucia


----------



## Beach buddy

Sorry, yes Andalucia


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> La justicia permite la exigencia de pasaporte covid para entrar en bares y restaurantes de Andalucía
> 
> 
> La medida estará en vigor hasta el 15 de enero de 2022 y se añade a la obligación de estar vacunado para acceder a las residencias y los hospitales
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elpais.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like Andalucia


I knew it wasn't Valencia. That came in on December 3rd, & Ximo Puig is looking at tightening restrictions.


----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## woodpecker9

Beach buddy said:


> I see that it has now been approved that Covid Passports or negative Covid test results are to be mandatory for entry into bars, restaurants and nightclubs until the 15th January.


*It seems strange considering latest COVID developments that anyone would want to enter bars, restaurants and nightclubs. You can get your bevy, tins of beans by home delivery and watch strictly at home, much cheaper and safer.  *


----------



## Beach buddy

If everyone thought like that when this is over all the bars would go bankrupt then there would be no bars to go to


----------



## woodpecker9

Beach buddy said:


> If everyone thought like that when this is over all the bars would go bankrupt then there would be no bars to go to


*You are correct, but if you contracted COVID and died of it from a bar you would not need a bar to go back to, it would be a party in heaven with Elvis, John Lennon, and Alf Garnett. *


----------



## olivefarmer

How long after your second jab is your Covid Passport valid?


----------



## Italia-Mx

Interesting. First they blamed the unvaccinated. Now that all of the unvaccinated are locked up tighter than a drum with practically no rights at all, including the right to work and support their families, they are blaming it on the children. Vaccinate the children. Are they going to blame it on the deceased who are not vaccinated as well?


----------



## Alcalaina

olivefarmer said:


> How long after your second jab is your Covid Passport valid?


The EU one is valid until the end of June 2022.








EU COVID Certificate: the global vaccine passport


The EU COVID Certificate is now available. Learn more about the EU COVID pass, how it works and how to apply.




www.covidpasscertificate.com


----------



## Alcalaina

Vaccine passports needed in Andalucia to enter bars and restaurants as from Monday.








La justicia permite la exigencia de pasaporte covid para entrar en bares y restaurantes de Andalucía


La medida estará en vigor hasta el 15 de enero de 2022 y se añade a la obligación de estar vacunado para acceder a las residencias y los hospitales




elpais.com


----------



## number9

We remember when we ate out for fun - that isn't now. A covid passport won't protect you, many have waning 2nd vaccines and no immediate prospect of a booster. We won't be eating out any time soon.


----------



## Alcalaina

number9 said:


> We remember when we ate out for fun - that isn't now. A covid passport won't protect you, many have waning 2nd vaccines and no immediate prospect of a booster. We won't be eating out any time soon.


Fortunately in Southern Spain there are plenty of opportunities to eat and/or drink out of doors, with socially distanced tables and waiters wearing masks. I'm quite happy to continue doing this. I've always avoided crowded bars anyway, I like to have a conversation without having to shout!


----------



## kaipa

I see Sanchez has arranged a meeting with the heads of the communities next week to discuss the rise in infections and possibly central control of some areas although they have rejected any suggestion of another State of Alarm. That said one gets the impression that Spain is possibly being a bit slow to react to Omicron given what the data is starting to suggest and the situation in France and other EU countries. Unfortunately I fear for the worse. I have heard alot of reports that Torrevieja hospital is struggling but no official reports ( so who knows)









Sánchez convoca la conferencia de presidentes la próxima semana ante la propagación de contagios


El Gobierno señala que no está encima de la mesa un nuevo estado de alarma




elpais.com


----------



## olivefarmer

Alcalaina said:


> The EU one is valid until the end of June 2022.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EU COVID Certificate: the global vaccine passport
> 
> 
> The EU COVID Certificate is now available. Learn more about the EU COVID pass, how it works and how to apply.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.covidpasscertificate.com


Thanks


----------



## Overandout

Pedro on TV at 11.00 today... let's see what he says!


----------



## kaipa

Sanchez not saying much that hasn't been reported. Wednesday for big pow wow.Basically no state of Alarm will be called. Ayuso taking the no-restrictions -never-line but get vaccinated. So basically nothing new.


----------



## Overandout

kaipa said:


> Sanchez not saying much that hasn't been reported. Wednesday for big pow wow.Basically no state of Alarm will be called. Ayuso taking the no-restrictions -never-line but get vaccinated. So basically nothing new.


That's about it.

The meeting on Wednesday with the CAs won't involve any changes to the borders (entry from UK) as that is a national issue. If he was going to close borders with UK he would have done it today. I don't expect any changes in that respect until 31st December now.


----------



## xabiaxica

La Comunitat Valenciana amplía el certificado covid a gimnasios, cines y estos otros lugares


El president de la Generalitat ha anunciado que el requisito del certificado covid se ampliará a más lugares como cines, circos, sedes festeras, gimnasios, polideportivos etc. Así lo ha anunciado X...




www.elperiodic.com






*The Comunidad Valenciana extends the covid certificate to gyms, cinemas and these other venues*
The measure will be in force until 31 January.
The president of the Generalitat has announced that the covid certificate requirement will be extended to more places such as cinemas, circuses, festival venues, gymnasiums, sports centres, etc. This was announced by Ximo Puig after the meeting of the Interdepartmental Bureau in which the coronavirus situation in the Valencian Community was analysed.
In this sense, the covid certificate requirement will be required in all catering venues regardless of whether they have a capacity of less than fifty people as required until now. It will also be required in public places where people eat or drink, such as cinemas, multi-purpose halls, circuses, festive venues or hotel catering services.
As for sports facilities, the covid certificate will also be required for indoor swimming pools, gyms and sports centres. It is expected to come into force when the High Court of Justice gives the green light and will be in force until 31 January.


----------



## blondebob

Very sad that fully vaccinated Spanish baritone Carlos Marin from Il Divo passed from Covid yesterday and now double Vaxxed Rafa Nadal is suffering from Covid19. Truly is across all age ranges now.


----------



## kaipa

blondebob said:


> Very sad that fully vaccinated Spanish baritone Carlos Marin from Il Divo passed from Covid yesterday and now double Vaxxed Rafa Nadal is suffering from Covid19. Truly is across all age ranges now.


Yes it definitely goes to show that this is not an age thing or only affects people with health problems. It really is a sobering thought but also a huge nightmare. What can be done?. I understand that further lockdowns impact too heavily on the economy and wellbeing of all but do we just all have to take our chances out there? Plus hospital workers must feel like they are playing Russian roulette on a daily basis!. There is a rumour going around in my school that students might have to go back to online classes in new year as the local schools have lots of staff absent. My son said hardly anyone was in class today as parents are scared about Covid over the fiestas.


----------



## Megsmum

If they require testing before coming. Which I understand and appreciate. How quickly after tomorrow will that come in.. family flying in on Thursday


----------



## xabiaxica

Omicron now accounts for just over 47% of cases in Spain









El 47% de los casos de covid secuenciados en España son de ómicron


Sanidad advierte de que el dato se obtiene sobre una muestra escasa y poco representativa, aunque el avance de la variante es innegable




www.elconfidencial.com


----------



## Megsmum

Re my question above. When would restrictions come in after tomorrow of there are any ??


----------



## Overandout

Megsmum said:


> Re my question above. When would restrictions come in after tomorrow of there are any ??


It's not very clear what restrictions you refer to in your previous post. You mean tests that your family from UK might need upon arrival in Spain?

Tomorrow Sanchez is meeting wth the leaders of the CAs (those who can be bothered to attend at least) and will discuss the measures to be taken at that level. I suppose there is a possibility that some CAs propose to close their borders so your family arriving in, for example Madrid, could have difficulty moving around Spain. 
The biggest risk I expect would be a limitation on the numer of people in indoor gatherings, for me that's the one which will affect families the most.

Any decisions made tomorrow will have to be published in the respective BOEs and potentially might need to go through the courts first (like the Covid passports) so when they would come into effect seems to be a bit open. Maybe Friday if they can get everything done at CA level, otherwise who knows.

It's worth mentioning thouh that the CAs can do this and could have done this at any point up till now (as many have) without waiting for the meeting with Pedro tomorrow.

Anything at national level is unrelated to tomorrow's meeting and is unlikely to change until the current measures end on 31st December in my opinion.


----------



## Megsmum

Overandout said:


> It's not very clear what restrictions you refer to in your previous post. You mean tests that your family from UK might need upon arrival in Spain?
> 
> Tomorrow Sanchez is meeting wth the leaders of the CAs (those who can be bothered to attend at least) and will discuss the measures to be taken at that level. I suppose there is a possibility that some CAs propose to close their borders so your family arriving in, for example Madrid, could have difficulty moving around Spain.
> The biggest risk I expect would be a limitation on the numer of people in indoor gatherings, for me that's the one which will affect families the most.
> 
> Any decisions made tomorrow will have to be published in the respective BOEs and potentially might need to go through the courts first (like the Covid passports) so when they would come into effect seems to be a bit open. Maybe Friday if they can get everything done at CA level, otherwise who knows.
> 
> It's worth mentioning thouh that the CAs can do this and could have done this at any point up till now (as many have) without waiting for the meeting with Pedro tomorrow.
> 
> Anything at national level is unrelated to tomorrow's meeting and is unlikely to change until the current measures end on 31st December in my opinion.


Thanks. Yes I'm referring to COVID testing prior to arrival. If they introduce testing prior to arrival , does that usually take immediate effect or later. Just trying to get potential ducks in a row, but as you say national levels probably not discussed tomorrow

If internal borders are closed. Presumably, we ask for travel pass from Guardia like I did for my hospital appointments.?


----------



## kaipa

Megsmum said:


> Thanks. Yes I'm referring to COVID testing prior to arrival. If they introduce testing prior to arrival , does that usually take immediate effect or later. Just trying to get potential ducks in a row, but as you say national levels probably not discussed tomorrow
> 
> If internal borders are closed. Presumably, we ask for travel pass from Guardia like I did for my hospital appointments.?


I haven't seen anything suggesting that in the Spanish media so if they are arriving Thursday I'm sure there won't be anything they need to do apart from the forms and the vaccination certificates. Looking in El Pais today and there is nothing about international travel so your family should be fine


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> I haven't seen anything suggesting that in the Spanish media so if they are arriving Thursday I'm sure there won't be anything they need to do apart from the forms and the vaccination certificates. Looking in El Pais today and there is nothing about international travel so your family should be fine


Thank you. These ever changing travel restrictions are stressful 

Happy Christmas everyone


----------



## Beach buddy

Looks like Masks are to be obligatory again outside. Thank goodness. As from tomorrow I think.


----------



## Relyat

Oh joy....


----------



## Barriej

Yep. But to be honest we have been keeping ours on anyway.

And it looks like the Valencian region has extended the covid passport to ALL food and drink places not just over 50 capacity.
Like a bit of paper is going to stop the spread.

We had already decided that we weren't going out except for shopping and walks so it don't bother me really.


----------



## Joppa

Mask rule to come in from Christmas Eve throughout Spain. There was a fine of 200 euro for first offenders, but I don't know if it applies this time around.


----------



## kaipa

What is becoming very apparent is that Covid is being politicised more and more. Yesterday's meeting a case in point. Sanchez adopts a position similar to Boris ( no desire to impose more restrictions yet) immediately Cataluyna and Pais Basco government hold press conferences to criticise the approach. It has nothing to do with public health and safety but simply for the benefits of their own supporters. The same as the UK. Each claims to be supporting the scientific advice but its nonsense. Meanwhile Ayuso who is now technically fighting Casado for a leadership challenge adopts a " I treat the public with respect.They are adults who can make up their own minds" stance. All of them are basically disingenuous and ,of course, it plays straight into arms of the even more dangerous anti- authoritarian groups


----------



## Megsmum

I'm furious. I'm at Sevilla airport. All passengers from UK flights prevented from entering. Queuing for PCR testing which they're saying Spanish government announced yesterday. Can anyone find appropriate link for me please. Nobody knows what's happening.


----------



## kaipa

What?......As far as I know they announced masks in all exteriors as of the 24th. Have not seen anything about needing a PCR. Are you sure this is what is happening? It would have to be a national decision as it's a border question and that was not taken yesterday. Today is another meeting but...that is today. I will check in the papers.


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> What?......As far as I know they announced masks in all exteriors as of the 24th. Have not seen anything about needing a PCR. Are you sure this is what is happening? It would have to be a national decision as it's a border question and that was not taken yesterday. Today is another meeting but...that is today. I will check in the papers.


Yep. I can't find anything. All passengers from UK queuing for PCR testing. No information good ven basically told to shut up they don't know if they're going anywhere else. .


----------



## Megsmum

Yes

All queuing for a COVID test


----------



## Megsmum

She's traveling alone with a six year old who is not supposed to be tested anyway regardless. Can Seville make these decisions


----------



## kaipa

I see absolutely nothing about compulsory PCR tests for travellers from UK. Nada. Are they charging for this? It seems very strange and the only thing I could think would prompt this would be if a passenger had suddenly been discovered to be positive on the flight and then they presumably could insist all passengers have to be immediately tested. I understand your anger and stress but hopefully it will all be okay and you will be able to see your family ( and everyone is healthy and ok). If you have to pay it's a real pain but remember we really cant take any of that with us and it was beyond your control. Hang on in there!!


----------



## Megsmum

She's out.. no charge lat flow test . guardia civil told her all airports are now doing flows on arrival from UK. She's. Negative. Apparently Spanish on flight absolutely furious. Police had to turn up.

I'm calm now. She tells me the Spanish were waved through..only UK nationals so presumably, COVID doesn't infect Spanish, unless a Spaniard holding a UK passport


----------



## Overandout

This must have been a bit of a shock!

I can't find any news about it being a requirement, nor being implemented. At a practical level I can certainly understand it given the lack of control and high infections in the UK.

When we come back at least my wife and kids will be able to use their Spanish passports to avoid it if they want to. On the other hand, its a free test so unless we're pushed for time they might as well take it, they'll have to wait for me anyway!


----------



## Megsmum

Overandout said:


> This must have been a bit of a shock!
> 
> I can't find any news about it being a requirement, nor being implemented. At a practical level I can certainly understand it given the lack of control and high infections in the UK.
> 
> When we come back at least my wife and kids will be able to use their Spanish passports to avoid it if they want to. On the other hand, its a free test so unless we're pushed for time they might as well take it, they'll have to wait for me anyway!


I think it was the shock. We agree with testing have no issues. Just last minute.com. plus they're saying it was announced yesterday. I wonder if it was supposed to be announced but delayed until 31st


----------



## Overandout

Megsmum said:


> I wonder if it was supposed to be announced but delayed until 31st


I'd say that's quite possible, someone with information has probably jumped the gun.

Interesting that they can get enough test kits to test everyone arriving. In Madrid there is a major shortage, maybe because they've all been diverted to Barajas!


----------



## Lynn R

Megsmum said:


> I think it was the shock. We agree with testing have no issues. Just last minute.com. plus they're saying it was announced yesterday. I wonder if it was supposed to be announced but delayed until 31st


I haven't seen anything about it in the press and haven't seen any social media reports of it happening at other airports either, I'm sure there would have been by now if people arriving at Málaga had experienced this. If it was announced yesterday surely, like the re-imposition of mask wearing outdoors, it would have to wait until the extraordinary meeting of the Council of Ministers later today had approved it and a BOE been issued. It seems to me that even if it does come in as a result of that meeting, they definitely jumped the gun at Sevilla airport. But not much your daughter could do about it in the circumstances, I am glad her test was negative and she is now safely with you.


----------



## kaipa

Well at least your family have arrived and you know they arent infected so that is good and they didn't have to pay. Dont understand why they didnt test Spanish nationals unless it was passengers from different flights all mixing that sounds weird and totally stupid. There is absolutely nothing about needing tests and therefore I would imagine it was the decision of one person in the airport to do this. Interesting to see if other flights are reporting similar. Anyway all is well in the end.


----------



## xabiaxica

Lynn R said:


> I haven't seen anything about it in the press and haven't seen any social media reports of it happening at other airports either, I'm sure there would have been by now if people arriving at Málaga had experienced this. If it was announced yesterday surely, like the re-imposition of mask wearing outdoors, it would have to wait until the extraordinary meeting of the Council of Ministers later today had approved it and a BOE been issued. It seems to me that even if it does come in as a result of that meeting, they definitely jumped the gun at Sevilla airport. But not much your daughter could do about it in the circumstances, I am glad her test was negative and she is now safely with you.


I read earlier that it's also happening down your way. Not sure if it was Sevilla or Málaga though.


----------



## Megsmum

Home now. Still can't find anything but on UK government site re Spain it's been updated to day

You may also be subject to additional checks at the point of entry including a temperature check, visual health assessment, or testing on arrival. Passengers may also be contacted and required to undertake a PCR, TMA or LAMP test at any point up to 48 hours after their arrival in Spain. More information can be found on the Spanish government’s



But nothing on Spanish government site !


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Megsmum said:


> Home now. Still can't find anything but on UK government site re Spain it's been updated to day
> 
> You may also be subject to additional checks at the point of entry including a temperature check, visual health assessment, or testing on arrival. Passengers may also be contacted and required to undertake a PCR, TMA or LAMP test at any point up to 48 hours after their arrival in Spain. More information can be found on the Spanish government’s
> 
> 
> 
> But nothing on Spanish government site !


Well here, on the ministerio de exteriores site it gives a link to the UK government site which gives the info you have quoted above...
Requisitos de entrada en España


----------



## Megsmum

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well here, on the ministerio de exteriores site it gives a link to the UK government site which gives the info you have quoted above...
> Requisitos de entrada en España


I can't see it anywhere that says a test on arrival? The ambiguity is probably in "could". To me it's seems bit silly to only test UK citizens on the plane and not Spanish..if that's what happened...

Anyway. Trees up, food preparation day merry Christmas and a happy New year


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Megsmum said:


> I can't see it anywhere that says a test on arrival? The ambiguity is probably in "could". To me it's seems bit silly to only test UK citizens on the plane and not Spanish..if that's what happened...
> 
> Anyway. Trees up, food preparation day merry Christmas and a happy New year


Exactly, it's worded to cover all situations so they don't have to change every few weeks..
Yup Merry Christmas!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> This must have been a bit of a shock!
> 
> I can't find any news about it being a requirement, nor being implemented. At a practical level I can certainly understand it given the lack of control and high infections in the UK.
> 
> When we come back at least my wife and kids will be able to use their Spanish passports to avoid it if they want to. On the other hand, its a free test so unless we're pushed for time they might as well take it, they'll have to wait for me anyway!


Totally agree with this Overandout!


----------



## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> I can't see it anywhere that says a test on arrival? The ambiguity is probably in "could". To me it's seems bit silly to only test UK citizens on the plane and not Spanish..if that's what happened...
> 
> Anyway. Trees up, food preparation day merry Christmas and a happy New year


Presumably because Spanish citizens ( & presumably legal residents of other nationalities) cannot be refused entry, whereas others can.


----------



## Megsmum

xabiaxica said:


> Presumably because Spanish citizens ( & presumably legal residents of other nationalities) cannot be refused entry, whereas others can.


,
One family , father English wife and children Spanish, were in a seperated , my daughter said the husband asked why not them , was met with shrug of shoulders, if your testing on arrival you should really test before departure. All UK citizens could have been negative and one Spanish positive. 
I think the issue was nobody seemed to know why, just government orders!

As I say, it's done.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Megsmum said:


> ,
> One family , father English wife and children Spanish, were in a seperated , my daughter said the husband asked why not them , was met with shrug of shoulders, if your testing on arrival you should really test before departure. All UK citizens could have been negative and one Spanish positive.
> I think the issue was nobody seemed to know why, just government orders!
> 
> As I say, it's done.


I don't think it was government orders though...
Anyway, as you say, it's done and no harm is done by having a test so best to look on it as a freebie and think about Christmas with the family!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Test de antigénos/ lateral flow tests now offered to all passengers flying into Galician airports or train stations with passengers coming from outside of Galicia. No cost, no obligation La Xunta habilita puntos en aeropuertos y estaciones de tren para hacerse test sin cita


----------



## ddgo

Megsmum said:


> She's out.. no charge lat flow test . guardia civil told her all airports are now doing flows on arrival from UK. She's. Negative. Apparently Spanish on flight absolutely furious. Police had to turn up.
> 
> I'm calm now. She tells me the Spanish were waved through..only UK nationals so presumably, COVID doesn't infect Spanish, unless a Spaniard holding a UK passport


Hard to find consistent information, glad it worked out for her


----------



## DonMarco

Clarification required please. The following information is currently on the Ministerio de Sanidad website.

NEW: If you come from a HIGH RISK country, at the health controls on arrival in Spain, you will be required your SpTH QR code together with a vaccination or recovery certificate and, in addittion, a SARS-CoV-2 diagnostic test certificate with a negative result.

The "HIGH RISK" link takes you to a page that displays Risk countries but not a single high risk country. The UK and Switzerland are not listed at all so does anybody have up-to date information of requirements for those two countries?


----------



## Alcalaina

Friends who arrived from UK last week had to show vaccine certificate but not test certificate.


----------



## DonMarco

But was that because they wern't asked for it at the point of entry or because its not a requirement.


----------



## xabiaxica

DonMarco said:


> Clarification required please. The following information is currently on the Ministerio de Sanidad website.
> 
> NEW: If you come from a HIGH RISK country, at the health controls on arrival in Spain, you will be required your SpTH QR code together with a vaccination or recovery certificate and, in addittion, a SARS-CoV-2 diagnostic test certificate with a negative result.
> 
> The "HIGH RISK" link takes you to a page that displays Risk countries but not a single high risk country. The UK and Switzerland are not listed at all so does anybody have up-to date information of requirements for those two countries?


The UK isn't on the High Risk list atm



https://www.sanidad.gob.es/profesionales/saludPublica/ccayes/alertasActual/nCov/spth.htm



A vaccination certifcate & locator form is all that is required.



> Personas provistas de un certificado de vacunación que el Ministerio de Sanidad reconozca con este fin, previa comprobación por las autoridades sanitarias, así como los menores acompañantes a los que el Ministerio de Sanidad extienda los efectos (menores de 12 años). En el caso de las personas residentes en el Reino Unido de Gran Bretaña e Irlanda del Norte que procedan directamente de él, deberán igualmente a partir del 1/12/2021 llegar a España provistas de un certificado de vacunación.
> Será sometida a denegación de entrada por motivos de salud pública toda persona nacional de un tercer país, incluso si pertenece a una de las categorías anteriores que, previa comprobación por las autoridades sanitarias, no cumpla los requisitos de control sanitario para la COVID-19 que establezca el Ministerio de Sanidad.


----------



## ksjazzguitar

We landed in Spain last week (from the US, in transit Portugal) and it was the SpTH QR code that Spain cared about. Portugal wanted a negative covid test (even though we were just in transit) but Spain just wanted the QR code that we generated on their web site. They scanned it and ushered us through. I don't think we even broke stride.


----------



## DonMarco

Thank you for all your replies. I'm not so much worried about what happens when I land in Spain, its more of a worry that, without the right documents (including negative test) I won't be allowed to board the plain. On a recent trip to Scotland, everything was checked before I was allowed to board. Fully vaccinated, pre-boarding lateral flow test, passenger locator form and day two PCR test.


----------



## ksjazzguitar

Right, When we were leaving the US, the airline (TAP) made us show our QR codes for Portugal and Spain before we even finished checking. We started checkin, gave them our bags, but put them aside and wouldn't even put the bags on the conveyor belt until we had the QR codes. We had to go somewhere and sit down and it too about 20 minutes to finish the QR codes, then we showed them and they were cool. Unfortunately we couldn't do the QR codes before we got there because they required our seat numbers and we couldn't get those until we checked in and couldn't do that until we showed the ticket counter our negative test. It was messy but they were understanding and it worked in the end.

Of course, who knows, the whole process might change in the next 15 minutes.


----------



## xabiaxica

Spain introduces new Covid vaccination certificate rules for international arrivals


The requirements come into effect on 1 February after being published in the BOE Official State Gazette




www.surinenglish.com








> *From 1 February, Spain will tighten the coronavirus vaccination certificate requirements for international arrivals at its airports and ports, after the order was published in the **BOE Official State Gazette**.*


----------



## Megsmum

xabiaxica said:


> Spain introduces new Covid vaccination certificate rules for international arrivals
> 
> 
> The requirements come into effect on 1 February after being published in the BOE Official State Gazette
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.surinenglish.com


Can't see where the meaning of 
Fully vaccinated means 

2 or 3 doses?


----------



## Joppa

Megsmum said:


> Can't see where the meaning of
> Fully vaccinated means
> 
> 2 or 3 doses?


From 1st February, Covid pass loses its validity 270 days after the last vaccination, so for example, if you received your second dose in June 2021, you will need your booster shot by March 2022, at least two weeks before arrival in Spain.


----------



## snikpoh

Joppa said:


> From 1st February, Covid pass loses its validity 270 days after the last vaccination, so for example, if you received your second dose in June 2021, you will need your booster shot by March 2022, at least two weeks before arrival in Spain.


and what about if you've had COVID - does that count as 1 vaccination?


----------



## xabiaxica

snikpoh said:


> and what about if you've had COVID - does that count as 1 vaccination?


 It does if vaccinated in Spain, because we can get a 'covid passport' in those circumstances, with a certificate of recovery. 

I don't know if other countries issue those, though. I do know that the UK doesn't recognise the certifice of recovery issued in Spain, so presumably they aren't issued there.


----------



## Megsmum

If your waiting for booster can you take a test?


----------



## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> If your waiting for booster can you take a test?


The booster isn't needed for 'fully vaccinated' as long as it's less than 270 days since the most recent jab. 

There's no option for a test for tourists, only for those travelling under one of the exemptions listed.


----------



## xabiaxica

xabiaxica said:


> It does if vaccinated in Spain, because we can get a 'covid passport' in those circumstances, with a certificate of recovery.
> 
> I don't know if other countries issue those, though. I do know that the UK doesn't recognise the certifice of recovery issued in Spain, so presumably they aren't issued there.


just saw this on the link



> *If you’ve had Covid-19 in the past year*
> If you’re travelling to Spain for tourism purposes, you cannot use the UK proof of Covid-19 recovery record certifying that you have recovered from Covid-19 in the last 6 months.


----------



## jasonadams

xabiaxica said:


> Spain introduces new Covid vaccination certificate rules for international arrivals
> 
> 
> The requirements come into effect on 1 February after being published in the BOE Official State Gazette
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.surinenglish.com


Do I have to take the test on arrival if I am fully vaccinated?


----------



## xabiaxica

jasonadams said:


> Do I have to take the test on arrival if I am fully vaccinated?


If you're fully vaccinated you don't have to take a test.


----------



## Ben2013

Covid rules for travel to Spain have just been changed (see below extract from UK newspaper). 
Can someone please help clarify covid requirements for Britons residing in Spain. 
I have just received my Spanish Residency card (5 Yeards). Do the new rules affect us? If I do not get my booster, what do I have to show?
Kind regards 

*Newspaper*:
*Spain's new Covid vaccine entry requirements for holidaymakers change this week*

_rules have "Authorities will check to see the date travellers received their final dose in a full vaccine course - which can be one jab for a single-dose vaccine or the second dose for a double-dose vaccine.
The final dose must have been administered within 270 days - which is around nine months - prior to your travel to Spain.
If you fall outside of this, then you will be required to show evidence of your booster vaccination."_


----------



## Megsmum

I'm confused. Are you living here or visiting. These are entry rules for tourists. As I understand it your last jab be it 2nd or 3rd has to be within 270 days of arrival in Spain. So if your second Jab was more than 270 days ago no entry


----------



## Ben2013

Megsmum said:


> I'm confused. Are you living here or visiting. These are entry rules for tourists. As I understand it your last jab be it 2nd or 3rd has to be within 270 days of arrival in Spain. So if your second Jab was more than 270 days ago no entry


Thank you for your reply. Just to clarify: 
I am not talking about visitors /tourists who usually present their British passports. I'm talking about British residents who already have residency cards /live mainly in Spain. 
I'm not aware that Spain requires its citizens and residents to show proof of booster or risk being denied entry. 
British media talk about tourists and there is no mention of British residents. 
Surely the rules would be different, I guess. 
Kind regards


----------



## Overandout

Spanish residents should not be in a situation where more than 270 days pass from the last jab because the vaccine program has been more stringent than that.

But it does beg the question, what will happen if an unvaccinated resident returns to Spain? 

WIll they get in on the basis of being resident, or will they be denied entry on the basis of the new entry rules?


----------



## Ben2013

Overandout said:


> Spanish residents should not be in a situation where more than 270 days pass from the last jab because the vaccine program has been more stringent than that.
> 
> But it does beg the question, what will happen if an unvaccinated resident returns to Spain?
> 
> WIll they get in on the basis of being resident, or will they be denied entry on the basis of the new entry rules?


Good question. Thank you for raising this interesting question. Hope someone will have the answer. One thing is certain: Residents who have the right to live in Spain will not be treated the same as tourists. And I guess the rules that govern Spanish citizens apply to them to a great extent


----------



## timwip

The 270 day rule above cited was published in the BOE dated 29 December 2021. There is no talk to tourist, resident or citizen. I think basically anyone entering Spain needs to have it within 270 days. I think Spain is starting to have the same stance as France, nobody is going to make you get vaccinated; however, you lose freedoms if you don´t. I would not leave Spain in less I was sure I could demonstrate less than 270 days since my last vaccination.


----------



## Overandout

timwip said:


> The 270 day rule above cited was published in the BOE dated 29 December 2021. There is no talk to tourist, resident or citizen. I think basically anyone entering Spain needs to have it within 270 days. I think Spain is starting to have the same stance as France, nobody is going to make you get vaccinated; however, you lose freedoms if you don´t. I would not leave Spain in less I was sure I could demonstrate less than 270 days since my last vaccination.


I don't think that Spain can prevent an unvaccinated citizen from entering their own country.
I'm no expert on constitutional law but I'd be prepared to bet that that oversteps the mark.


----------



## timwip

Overandout said:


> I don't think that Spain can prevent an unvaccinated citizen from entering their own country.
> I'm no expert on constitutional law but I'd be prepared to bet that that oversteps the mark.


You could be right; however, that is not the way the decree is written. In a couple of weeks, I go to Mexico and I am making sure I have all my paperwork in order.


----------



## Overandout

Wow, this thread was on page 4 of the forum and hasn't had a reply for 2 and a half months!

I'd like to say that it is a good sign, but given the other issues which have become more important in the world, I'm not so sure.

In any case, it looks like Spain will finally eliminate the need to wear masks indoors soon. Possibly very soon (some sources say "early Spring") which would probably mean that masks stop being mandatory in many closed spaces even before the rate of infections is below the 200 / 100,000.

Some experts seem to be saying that we should wait until we are below 50, but we have been below 50 several times in the last two years and masks were still mandatory in those periods.

So what do people think? 

I personally will be glad to see the back of mask wearing, but I acknowledge that for some more at risk people this will mean having to stay at home more and avoid a lot of places, which seems unfair. I hope for that reason that some places will retain the rule, such as public transport, hospitals and doctor's surgeries, public offices (at least in areas where the public enter) and the like.

At the end of the day Spain has to eliminate the mask rule to have any hope of a return of the tourists. That leads to the potential sense of doing it sooner rather than later so that the wave of infections which will be inevitable happens before the summer.


----------



## tardigrade

Tourists are still coming.. Just look at the crowds in Valencia everyday at 2pm filling the center square to hear bang, bang, bang.. The city is packed...

It is still circulating, now with a delta and omicron combined version.. Germany has had their highest daily infection rate recently. France is still at around 50000 a day as is the UK. 

I do not mind wearing a mask indoors and might continue, no matter the rules. I have not even had a sniffle in 3 years plus I do not need to shave that often.


----------



## Overandout

I confess to not having a lot of visibility of the situations of other countries where masks are no longer mandatory, but I suppose that the high infection rates are now accompanied with a much lower hospitalization rate? This can be the only valid justification surely?

I will continue to wear a mask in a lot of places too, but that is mainly serving to protect others, not myself. The question is will others still wear them to protect us? They may not be obliged to do so, so...


----------



## Alcalaina

They are a nuisance in hot weather when your sunglasses steam up, but I'll be wearing mine in shops and crowded outside areas for a while I think.

This weekend was Carnival here and hardly any masks were visible in the crowds (apart from the fancy-dress ones). An awful lot of besos and abrazos too. It will be interesting to see if there's a spike next week.


----------



## Megsmum

Well, my cancer has returned and I'm back in chemotherapy treatment. I will be wearing masks etc BUT I'm not going to hide away with either..life's for living. I've been locked away for over two years. I'm not living my remaining days like that. I'll be careful but not paranoid about it


----------



## Overandout

Megsmum said:


> Well, my cancer has returned and I'm back in chemotherapy treatment. I will be wearing masks etc BUT I'm not going to hide away with either..life's for living. I've been locked away for over two years. I'm not living my remaining days like that. I'll be careful but not paranoid about it


Sorry to hear that M, I guess that our own health status must really be a big influence on how we deal with things like this. I hope your treatment goes well.


----------



## blondebob

Megsmum said:


> Well, my cancer has returned and I'm back in chemotherapy treatment. I will be wearing masks etc BUT I'm not going to hide away with either..life's for living. I've been locked away for over two years. I'm not living my remaining days like that. I'll be careful but not paranoid about it


Sorry to hear, but as you say life is for living so stay positive and enjoy each and every moment....you got this


----------



## joseroblees3

ksjazzguitar said:


> We landed in Spain last week (from the US, in transit Portugal) and it was the SpTH QR code that Spain cared about. Portugal wanted a negative covid test (even though we were just in transit) but Spain just wanted the QR code that we generated on their web site. They scanned it and ushered us through. I don't think we even broke stride.


in the Community of Madrid, Castilla y León, Extremadura and Castilla-La Mancha, they do not ask for a covid passport at all, while in Galicia, Aragón, Navarra, La Rioja, Andalucía, Murcia, the Valencian Community, the Balearic Islands, Ceuta and Melilla they ask for it for night entertainment. If the trip comes from a country at risk, pass a quick control by scanning a QR code


----------



## xabiaxica

joseroblees3 said:


> in the Community of Madrid, Castilla y León, Extremadura and Castilla-La Mancha, they do not ask for a covid passport at all, while in Galicia, Aragón, Navarra, La Rioja, Andalucía, Murcia, the Valencian Community, the Balearic Islands, Ceuta and Melilla they ask for it for night entertainment. If the trip comes from a country at risk, pass a quick control by scanning a QR code


The covid passport is no longer required in the Comunidad Valenciana.

This link shows the current requirements by comunidad.









Coronavirus | El pasaporte COVID en España


Gran parte de los territorios implantaron el certificado COVID en restauración, ocio nocturno, eventos multitudinarios, residencias y otras actividades en España.



www.rtve.es


----------



## Overandout

After the CAs rejected the idea to end obligatory mask wearing indoors before Easter (the vote was on 31st March and only Madrid voted to end the measure) there is now an ongoing meeting in Toledo of the experts for each CA to agree on the new rules and when it would be introduced.

Some news sources are saying that it could still be before Easter if an agreement is reached.

At the moment it looks like masks will still be required in health centres and hospitals (patients and staff) and in public transport. It would not be obligatory in schools but recomemnded for vulnerable teaching staff, and would not be obligatory in other closed public spaces like shops, cinemas, theatres etc. but would still be recommended.

We're going away next week for Easter and I'm in two minds. I'd love to not have to wear a mask all the time, but what seems to be sure is that we will see a huge rise in transmission when the rules are relaxed. Maybe we should just get it over and done with?


----------



## Megsmum

Overandout said:


> After the CAs rejected the idea to end obligatory mask wearing indoors before Easter (the vote was on 31st March and only Madrid voted to end the measure) there is now an ongoing meeting in Toledo of the experts for each CA to agree on the new rules and when it would be introduced.
> 
> Some news sources are saying that it could still be before Easter if an agreement is reached.
> 
> At the moment it looks like masks will still be required in health centres and hospitals (patients and staff) and in public transport. It would not be obligatory in schools but recomemnded for vulnerable teaching staff, and would not be obligatory in other closed public spaces like shops, cinemas, theatres etc. but would still be recommended.
> 
> We're going away next week for Easter and I'm in two minds. I'd love to not have to wear a mask all the time, but what seems to be sure is that we will see a huge rise in transmission when the rules are relaxed. Maybe we should just get it over and done with?


It's a toughy but I'm vulnerable the time has come for me to look after me. If that means I have to curtail my life do be it, I don't want to see young children wearing masks anymore or the majority not living life as it should be. In the UK my father, brother, sister in law, niece and one daughter have all tested positive in the last few days. Thank goodness vaccination should hopefully curtail the worst affects.


----------



## tardigrade

It seems to me that at this point in time it is considered as the "common cold" or that is the authorities want you to start processing. 

As long as you are vaccinated.

But

The CDC recommended another booster ( the fourth injection) for over 50s. Will Europe follow suit? How long will it take to implement?


----------



## Overandout

Megsmum said:


> It's a toughy but I'm vulnerable the time has come for me to look after me. If that means I have to curtail my life do be it, I don't want to see young children wearing masks anymore or the majority not living life as it should be. In the UK my father, brother, sister in law, niece and one daughter have all tested positive in the last few days. Thank goodness vaccination should hopefully curtail the worst affects.


I had this same discussion on another forum recently and someone accused me of being reckless by suggesting we should eliminate obligatory masks now, and suggested that if we wait a few more months it will be a lot better.
But I can't see how that is the case. After lifting the restrictions there will be a huge number of cases here, as has been the case in every other country where the restrictions have been lifted, but what difference does it really make if that huge spike is in May or in September?
The only counter-argument I can see is to keep them for ever, or until we have "zero Covid". And look at how China is doing with getting to that status.

It clearly is still more dangerous than a common cold, but is it now (i.e. with Omicron and vaccinations) more dangerous than the flu?

I also know many people in the UK who have been infected in the last few weeks, a lot of them for the second time. Thankfully none of them have been hospitalised so far.


----------



## Megsmum

I simply believe the time has come to move forwards. I think the majority want to. There's lots of social and economic reasons for learning to live with Covid now. If people want to continue to wear a mask , as I do, then nobody is stopping us. If like me, crowds make your nervous, then don't go, if your worried about visitors etc keep a distance, I just don't think the rest of the population should stop because some are vulnerable or concerned. Your correct, it's worse for many than a cold it's probably on a par with proper flu, not the I think I've got flu....


----------



## xabiaxica

Overandout said:


> I also know many people in the UK who have been infected in the last few weeks, a lot of them for the second time. Thankfully none of them have been hospitalised so far.


I know someone here in Spain who has had it three times now! Their child has had it twice, but their spouse only once...


----------



## xabiaxica

As of April 20 2022, the wearing of masks in indoor public spaces will cease to be obligatory, except on public transport, in medical facilities, & residencies for the elderly.









La mascarilla dejará de ser obligatoria en interiores después de Semana Santa


El Consejo de Ministros del 19 de abril aprobará retirar el cubrebocas, que seguirá en el transporte público y los centros sanitarios y sociosanitarios. La medida entrará en vigor al día siguiente




elpais.com


----------



## xabiaxica

Arriving in Spain from abroad - latest.












https://www.sanidad.gob.es/en/profesionales/saludPublica/ccayes/alertasActual/nCov/spth.htm?fbclid=IwAR1lfeCwxZTt-mc1N1yu4CeqjYTrzfmaS86cjKZi1MyZulVpr69zrL6Ha9M


----------



## vsonia

timwip said:


> The 270 day rule above cited was published in the BOE dated 29 December 2021. There is no talk to tourist, resident or citizen. I think basically anyone entering Spain needs to have it within 270 days. I think Spain is starting to have the same stance as France, nobody is going to make you get vaccinated; however, you lose freedoms if you don´t. I would not leave Spain in less I was sure I could demonstrate less than 270 days since my last vaccination.


So what happens if you got a very bad reaction to the vaccine and therefore do not want to get the booster? Can you no longer fly into Spain?


----------



## vsonia

Hi.
Is there away around having to get the booster? I am a Spanish citizen residing in the US but travel to Spain every year. My husband (who is not an EU citizen) had a terrible reaction to the vaccine and cannot be persuaded to take the booster. Can he just take a COVID PCR test before arriving in Spain?


----------



## Ben2013

I'm afraid you are wrong, Timwip. Spain is not treating everyone the same. Travellers have been divided into 3 categories:
. Green: enter freely Spain without having to present anything
. Orange: They have to show proof of vaccination or pcr
. Red: They can only enter Spain if the have been fully vaccinated.
People travelling to Spain from countries where it is hard to verify the vaccination rate like China were treated better than British travelers despite Britain's lead in vaccination campaign against covid. Therefore spanish policy did not make sense and it was criticized by experts who stressed the fact that as the new variantes were in both Spain and the UK, there was no justification for keeping the restrictions targeting British tourists.

To answer my own question with which we started this discussion:
As I never got a clear answer as to position of British residents in Spain, I decided to ask Spanish officials. I emailed the spanish embassy in London with my query and their reply was very positive: As we are residents in Spain, we are not treated as tourists and our travel to Spain is classified as ESSENTIAL and belong to the 2nd (orange category) , therefore if British tourists are not allowed without being vaccinated, we are allowed back to Spain with a pcr or antigen. This is official. And it is good news for those who do not wish to be vaccinated for any reason. In my case, I have always been a supporter of covid vaccination and I was among the first ones to take Astrazeneca, but unfortunately, when I took my 2nd Jab, I suffered from side effects just like my wife who developed a bad chest cough she never had before which prevented us from taking a booster. It could be allergy to the vaccin. Nothing else. And we support the vaccin which saved lives.
Many thanks


----------



## vsonia

thanks for the info Timwhip. 
So how do you know if you belong to the red category?


----------



## Ben2013

Vsonia, 
I'm not sure if you are addressing Timwip or myself - I published the reply above in which categories were mentioned. 
Just to reply to your question, the Spanish Embassy in London replied to my email and clearly stated that residents in Spain belong to the 2nd category whereby a pcr or antigen test is enough to enter Spain if not vaccinated or last vaccine is more than 270 days. That's official and I have a copy of the email


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## Ben2013

And just one more thing to add. I think it is common sense as well: 
No country in the world will stop its own citizens or residents from coming back to the country for not being vaccinated. They belong there.. Where would you want them to be if denied entry to the country where they live!


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## vsonia

Ben2013 said:


> And just one more thing to add. I think it is common sense as well:
> No country in the world will stop its own citizens or residents from coming back to the country for not being vaccinated. They belong there.. Where would you want them to be if denied entry to the country where they live!


Thanks Ben2013...sorry for the earlier mistake.
What you say makes sense but I was asking mostly about my husband (I didn't make this clear) who is an American citizen. I was reading the SPTH.gob.es website and it seems, from I read, that you can either be fully vaccinated OR get a PCR test upon entering Spain...if you are fully vaccinated then you dont need to get a PCR. They word it in such a way that it is unclear at first. 
Can you or anyone confirm this? My husband does not want to get the booster and is an American citizen and wants to go to Spain. Our understanding now is that he only needs to get a PCR result within 72 hours.
thank you!!


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## xabiaxica

The decree regarding the wearing of masks passed through parliament today, 19/4/2022, so as of tomorrow (20/4) masks will no longer be obligatory except in the following circumstances:

1. In health centres, services and establishments, except for persons admitted to hospital when they are in their rooms. Therefore a mask must be worn in hospitals, pharmacies and blood transfusion centres.
2. In health and social care centres (except for residents). It must be worn by visitors and workers.
3. In public and passenger transport, including taxis and VTC (transport with driver).
4. In workplaces when the occupational risk prevention department of the company so decides.


https://www.lasprovincias.es/socied...vincias.es/comun/pushservice/ws/worker.min.js[/URL]


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## Overandout

Some interesting news articles today about masks and the law. There still seems to be a lot of grey areas.

A woman who got off the metro in front of me at my station this morning took off her mask as soon as she stepped off the train onto the platform and walked all the way up the escalators and through the station without it. My understanding is that the rule to still wear it in public transport meant in the entire premises, but maybe not...

Another interesting one is if shops and other establishments can refuse to let you in if you aren't wearing one. It seems they cannot. 
The right to refuse admission is actually not legal unless previously approved by the local authority and the conditions for the restriction published on a sign with the local authority stamp shown. So all those signs which simply say "Reservado el Derecho de Admisión" are actually useless legally speaking. The permission to grant the right to refuse admission is quite strict and is normally only granted to prevent situations of violence. Any kind of discriminatory criteria is not sufficient grounds.

That actually got me thinking that all those bars and restaurants on the coast who have signs that oblige you to be wearing a T-Shirt are also illegal!


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## Barriej

Overandout said:


> Some interesting news articles today about masks and the law. There still seems to be a lot of grey areas.
> 
> A woman who got off the metro in front of me at my station this morning took off her mask as soon as she stepped off the train onto the platform and walked all the way up the escalators and through the station without it. My understanding is that the rule to still wear it in public transport meant in the entire premises, but maybe not...
> 
> Another interesting one is if shops and other establishments can refuse to let you in if you aren't wearing one. It seems they cannot.
> The right to refuse admission is actually not legal unless previously approved by the local authority and the conditions for the restriction published on a sign with the local authority stamp shown. So all those signs which simply say "Reservado el Derecho de Admisión" are actually useless legally speaking. The permission to grant the right to refuse admission is quite strict and is normally only granted to prevent situations of violence. Any kind of discriminatory criteria is not sufficient grounds.
> 
> That actually got me thinking that all those bars and restaurants on the coast who have signs that oblige you to be wearing a T-Shirt are also illegal!


There are still grey areas and I think there may be for some time (well at least until ALL restrictions that apply to anyone are lifted).
Our Post Office has no sign for masks now, but they always had a screen and the lady behind had a mask on this morning. (I put mine on as I entered the building as its second nature now)
However the building the post office is in also houses the Covid booster clinic. There is a sign just after to door to the PO saying masks are compulsory in this area but many people were wandering around without them.

To be honest I will continue to wear one when its crowded or in the bank maybe (seeing as its an enclosed space) but in normal shops with the doors wide open I may not bother. 
We are off to Benidorm with some friends on Friday and I will wear one while out walking there.

As to your last line about shops and dress codes, it may be illegal to have a sign to say you cannot come in unless you have a T shirt on etc. 
But it is up to the proprietor of the shop to decide who they will and who they wont serve at the end of the day.
Some places I have been to on travels have quite strict dress codes (not sure if its legal or not, but some of the places Ive been to, it was wise not to argue)..


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## tardigrade

I think the "no shoes, no shirt" signs are a health code violation so acceptable. Just like animals entering a restaurant.


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## Overandout

Barriej said:


> But it is up to the proprietor of the shop to decide who they will and who they wont serve at the end of the day.


I also though this would be the case, I'm pretty sure that in the UK it would be so, but this is not the interpretation which legal experts are giving here.

An owner of a shop / restaurant / museum etc. is not entitled to "indiscriminately" refuse entry to the establishment or to attend to the customer.

This is the opinion given by the lawyer Alonso de Frutos:

SI NO EXISTE OBLIGACIÓN LEGAL DE LLEVAR MASCARILLA, NO EXISTE EL DERECHO DEL TITULAR A DENEGAR LA ENTRADA POR ESE MOTIVO (FALTA MUY GRAVE, ART. 37.14 LEY 17/97). 

_If there is no legal obligation to wear a mask, the owner has no right to deny entry for this motive (Serious offence, Article 37.14 of law 17/97)_

This law is applicable to the Madrid, but the lawyer on Twitter gives quite a lot of other arguments, similar laws from other CAs and jurisprudence which backs up the legal opinion that the owner of a business is only allowed to refuse entry to people based on a very limited set of pre-approved circumstances (mainly where there is a fee and the person hasn't paid and if that person is behaving in a violent manner).


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## smithmarry46

When COVID first started, I changed my clothing a thousand times every day. I'll never forget that difficult moment.


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## smithmarry46

smithmarry46 said:


> When COVID first started, I changed my clothing a thousand times every day. I'll never forget that difficult moment.


still we are suffering this situation.


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## xabiaxica

smithmarry46 said:


> still we are suffering this situation.


Are you in Spain? 

There are hardly any restrictions now.


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## Overandout

Its possible that in Autumn we will see mask wearing not being obligatory in public transport, the Ministry of Health will decide based on the infection, hospitalisation and death rates over the summer.
This will be the big change for me using the Metro every day, I'm not sure how I'll feel with nobody around me wearing a mask, especially in the evenng when I use it at rush hour and it is packed.


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