# Thai temper



## Farang

I'm an ex-pat and have been living in Thailand now for two years, I'm married to a Thai woman and seem to get a better understanding of the culture. The only thing that has me baffled sometimes is how often I witness violent response on minor issues such as asking for something different in a restaurant from local Thai people. I have also witnessed my boss get a rock thrown at his car one night and breaking his window before going home, and another Thai colleague getting his car keyed all around. Is this normal? I'm curious to know if there are any other Western or European ex-pats that either lived it or see it more often than none. I asked my wife and she said most Thai's, unless they have a close relationship with a foreigner do not particulary like foreigners, especially ex-pats; any comments?
Cheers!
Farang


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## Guest

Farang said:


> I'm an ex-pat and have been living in Thailand now for two years, I'm married to a Thai woman and seem to get a better understanding of the culture. The only thing that has me baffled sometimes is how often I witness violent response on minor issues such as asking for something different in a restaurant from local Thai people. I have also witnessed my boss get a rock thrown at his car one night and breaking his window before going home, and another Thai colleague getting his car keyed all around. Is this normal? I'm curious to know if there are any other Western or European ex-pats that either lived it or see it more often than none. I asked my wife and she said most Thai's, unless they have a close relationship with a foreigner do not particulary like foreigners, especially ex-pats; any comments?
> Cheers!
> Farang


Can't say I've come across anything like that. But then I only ask for what's on the menu. If I don't like the look of the menu, I don't go in in the first place!

Never encountered the slightest resentment from any Thais, of any generation, in any situation.

Yes there is a certain national pride, not entirely justified in some respects, but if you know how to work around it there's nothing easier than gaining their acceptance. I do go out of my way to fit in with the culture and traditions. If there's any stereotype at all, Westerners are perceived as unsmiling, boorish, ill-mannered, pushy and arrogant - and unfortunately plenty of visitors, whether tourists or expats who should know better, live up to that image. The key is to concentrate on behaving in a diametrically opposed fashion.

It doesn't bother me to behave in that manner because a) I'm a guest in their country and b) I agree with them that many Westerners are unsmiling, boorish, ill-mannered, pushy and arrogant


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## EllieC

frogblogger said:


> I agree with them that many Westerners are unsmiling, boorish, ill-mannered, pushy and arrogant


You forgot smelly!! I never experienced anything like that in my 2 years there either. I have heard some stories about thai men getting pretty nationalistic when they drink in mixed farang/thai bars though. Boys will be boys.


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## Farang

frogblogger said:


> Can't say I've come across anything like that. But then I only ask for what's on the menu. If I don't like the look of the menu, I don't go in in the first place!
> 
> Never encountered the slightest resentment from any Thais, of any generation, in any situation.
> 
> Yes there is a certain national pride, not entirely justified in some respects, but if you know how to work around it there's nothing easier than gaining their acceptance. I do go out of my way to fit in with the culture and traditions. If there's any stereotype at all, Westerners are perceived as unsmiling, boorish, ill-mannered, pushy and arrogant - and unfortunately plenty of visitors, whether tourists or expats who should know better, live up to that image. The key is to concentrate on behaving in a diametrically opposed fashion.
> 
> It doesn't bother me to behave in that manner because a) I'm a guest in their country and b) I agree with them that many Westerners are unsmiling, boorish, ill-mannered, pushy and arrogant


Good one!
I see your point, but doesn't really answer my question, so k I appreciate in thought either way.
I'm in the hospitality industry and perhaps what everit is you're doing in Thailand might be more easy going. I do agree with the stereotype of Western tourist and ex-pats, but being in a percieved 5star environment it's not easy as pie to please a paying guest that puts jobs and money into local pockets and at the same time be sabai sabai. What I'm witnessing is unfair behavior on the part of some Thai's, in that some of us foriegners give alot but much is not appreciated. At least from my side I give money to my staff when they are in need, spend endless hours trainig and teaching. 
Effort is always put towards fitting in, as some of us like myself are married to Thai's. 
Ok, let me put it more blunt, where I lived in Samui and now in Phuket I can honestly tell you it's like the old American "Wild West", the mafia rules are more respected that the police and often the police are the mafia themselves.
I'm curious to know how long you've been in Thailand and wonder if all the smiles and good nature blocks the other side of places in Thailand. Not to say this is not a beautiful country, I just feel that people here can snap and when they do the consequences are much more grave than I would find back home where I am from.
Appreciate the reply and will enjoy reading your response...


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## Guest

EllieC said:


> You forgot smelly!! I never experienced anything like that in my 2 years there either. I have heard some stories about thai men getting pretty nationalistic when they drink in mixed farang/thai bars though. Boys will be boys.


Oh yes, the 'farang shower' (a quick squirt of deodorant/splash of aftershave) is infamous! In hot climates the length of toenails is a problem in this respect (ask any masseuse).

Yes in some circumstances I agree that certain male sensitivities can be upset, especially in alcohol-lubricated situations. The sterotype mentioned earlier can extend to the impression that Western guys (irrespective of size, shape and age) think they are God's gift to Thai women, and act accordingly. In many cases of course that stereotype is spot on. On the whole the Thai (males) are pretty cool about it, im my experience, although they cover up any simmering resentments pretty well.

Such resentments are more overtly expressed by the likes of the Khmer - previous experience of sitting minding my own business in a Phnom Penh nightclub on a couple of occasions bears this out. I was the only '_barang_' in the place however, I always seek out Westerner-free locations as far as I'm able, and this has its attendant risks. Still, even then such situations were easily defused well before reaching the point of no return. Helps when you hardly drink yourself, of course.



Farang said:


> Good one!
> I see your point, but doesn't really answer my question, so k I appreciate in thought either way.
> I'm in the hospitality industry and perhaps what everit is you're doing in Thailand might be more easy going. I do agree with the stereotype of Western tourist and ex-pats, but being in a percieved 5star environment it's not easy as pie to please a paying guest that puts jobs and money into local pockets and at the same time be sabai sabai. What I'm witnessing is unfair behavior on the part of some Thai's, in that some of us foriegners give alot but much is not appreciated. At least from my side I give money to my staff when they are in need, spend endless hours trainig and teaching.
> Effort is always put towards fitting in, as some of us like myself are married to Thai's.
> Ok, let me put it more blunt, where I lived in Samui and now in Phuket I can honestly tell you it's like the old American "Wild West", the mafia rules are more respected that the police and often the police are the mafia themselves.
> I'm curious to know how long you've been in Thailand and wonder if all the smiles and good nature blocks the other side of places in Thailand. Not to say this is not a beautiful country, I just feel that people here can snap and when they do the consequences are much more grave than I would find back home where I am from.
> Appreciate the reply and will enjoy reading your response...


Full time, just over two years. I'm now a 'part-timer', 7 months in LOS, 5 in France each year (where I'd been an expat for a couple of decades). Back to full-time in Chiang Mai soon. Married to Thai, Thai daughter, as well as three Anglo-French kids.

_"Much is not appreciated"_ you say ... there's the rub. The problem is that we don't always appreciate the same things, it's a fundamental culture clash. 'Incentivisation' is wasted on the average Thai employee as a result. Different motivations in many ways. Offer the guy whose culture has programmed him to live for the moment a performance-related bonus in X months time, and it just doesn't compute. 

Plenty of imperfections in Thai society, not least a strong undercurrent of racism and a form of nationalism that can be easily channelled by the unscrupulous. The Thais are very naive in some ways, and easily manipulated.

Yes I agree cronyism, pandering to the rich, corruption etc are rampant. In your line of work it must be very difficult to remain calm at times! Still no matter what the provocation not maintaining equanimity equates to a loss of face, pure and simple. And as a farang, you would only be living up to expectations. Frustrating really because the pressure is on the farang to be twice as Thai as the Thais...

Giving money doesn't earn merit or respect mind you - it's what someone perceived to be in a certain position in the social hierarchy 'just does'. Not giving it when you are expected to earns plenty of usually silent disrespect, of course. Not quite a no-win situation, but close!

I'm still a bit bemused by the description of Thais 'snapping'. My experience is that it takes a lot of provocation to get even close to such a scenario.

Chiang Mai doesn't live up to the reputation of Phuket, Pattaya etc, but the same principles are at work. I just go with the flow. I'm a guest in Thailand, and the negatives imo are more than compensated for by the positives. Not that I could change anything if I wanted to, so rather than bang my head against the proverbial, it's _sabai sabai_ for me ...

Easy for me to say mind you - I don't work any more. Worked my butt off for years, took early retirement. Still from observation alone, it seems like using Western management methods in Thailand is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. I've seen similar in France, where US-owned corporations continue to have great difficulties trying to get both French subsidiary employees and suppliers to conform to the American model and work ethic. If it barely works in France, where there are more similarities than dissimilarities between the two cultures, it's hardly surprising that you are encountering problems where there's a much greater gulf between the two ways of life. 

Anyway, that's my tuppence worth!

Good luck...


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## EllieC

Now it gets interesting....have been an expat in 3 different cultures - much like you frog blogger (what a name!) my husband who was a senior executive and a superb manager (I was an executive recruiter so saw many bad expat managers!) said management of people has general principals that don't change anywhere. All people want the same things - respect and recognition for achievement. When you boil it down to those 2 things it gets easier. Sure there are cultural sensitivities (like when he worked out a schedule to give all Thai managers 2 consecutive days off per week and they weren't happy with it because their friends weren't off!!!) but when you respect people and you recognize them things fall into place. Simplistic but true. Many farang execs try too hard to bow to cultural sensitivities. 

As for the short temper....my personal opinion is that the Thais generally keep their cool as a part of their Buddhist upbringing. Sometimes this has to crack...combine it with a tough economy, people losing their jobs, money worries...snap. It is happening everywhere...have you seen the youtube video of the Hong Kong lady throwing a tantrum in airport. Hilarious....


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## Guest

I'm not sure we're saying anything substantively different, EllieC - respect and recognition for achievement I completely agree are key (with some reservations about what represents achievement within a largely Buddhist environment), but the greater the knowledge of, sensitivity to and respect for cultural differences, the more efficiently you'll be able to apply management tactics that are founded on the principles of respect/reward for the individual. The one implies the other, don't you think?

As for bad management that certainly includes trying too hard - but only if your efforts are transparently clumsy and manipulative. Trying hard, per se, isn't a problem. Subtlety, staying one step ahead, is key!

You're certainly right about the rising stresses and strains because of the economic and political situation. Even if the philosophy of getting on with living for now helps the Thais cope, there are limits to how much anyone can take - everyone has a breaking point. Still most Thais are pretty accustomed to hardship, and fatalistic in their approach to life, so they have more reserves of equanimity than most Westerners, I reckon!


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## Farang

Interesting, your comment makes alot of sense, maybe I haven't been here long enought to see what you describe.
All in all I can see how difficult it is to compromise standards. On one end I'm trying to abide to the Thai way, on the other hand trying to please a high paying foriegn market expecting the same service and food quality as one would find back home, quite difficult. This is my third tour in Thailand, once in Samui and twice in Phuket.
I'm no stranger to the Thai way or Thai justice, lucky my wife takes good care of me and when in need I can have a truck full of Thai brothers (which are my family now) to come to my rescue if that were ever the case. 
Getting anyone to learn what you know is always a challenge, but yes you are correct the clash of cultures is the evident reason to my dilema. 
I won't lie to you, I would love to go back home after being away now for four years, but now that I'm married and in love I simply can't just pack up and go. My task is to do my best and do as you say to fit in and keep my head down until I can bring my wife back to Canada with me. 
I appreciate your insight, it really shed more light on things around here.
Regards








Yes in some circumstances I agree that certain male sensitivities can be upset, especially in alcohol-lubricated situations. The sterotype mentioned earlier can extend to the impression that Western guys (irrespective of size, shape and age) think they are God's gift to Thai women, and act accordingly. In many cases of course that stereotype is spot on. On the whole the Thai (males) are pretty cool about it, im my experience, although they cover up any simmering resentments pretty well.

Such resentments are more overtly expressed by the likes of the Khmer - previous experience of sitting minding my own business in a Phnom Penh nightclub on a couple of occasions bears this out. I was the only '_barang_' in the place however, I always seek out Westerner-free locations as far as I'm able, and this has its attendant risks. Still, even then such situations were easily defused well before reaching the point of no return. Helps when you hardly drink yourself, of course.



Full time, just over two years. I'm now a 'part-timer', 7 months in LOS, 5 in France each year (where I'd been an expat for a couple of decades). Back to full-time in Chiang Mai soon. Married to Thai, Thai daughter, as well as three Anglo-French kids.

_"Much is not appreciated"_ you say ... there's the rub. The problem is that we don't always appreciate the same things, it's a fundamental culture clash. 'Incentivisation' is wasted on the average Thai employee as a result. Different motivations in many ways. Offer the guy whose culture has programmed him to live for the moment a performance-related bonus in X months time, and it just doesn't compute. 

Plenty of imperfections in Thai society, not least a strong undercurrent of racism and a form of nationalism that can be easily channelled by the unscrupulous. The Thais are very naive in some ways, and easily manipulated.

Yes I agree cronyism, pandering to the rich, corruption etc are rampant. In your line of work it must be very difficult to remain calm at times! Still no matter what the provocation not maintaining equanimity equates to a loss of face, pure and simple. And as a farang, you would only be living up to expectations. Frustrating really because the pressure is on the farang to be twice as Thai as the Thais...

Giving money doesn't earn merit or respect mind you - it's what someone perceived to be in a certain position in the social hierarchy 'just does'. Not giving it when you are expected to earns plenty of usually silent disrespect, of course. Not quite a no-win situation, but close!

I'm still a bit bemused by the description of Thais 'snapping'. My experience is that it takes a lot of provocation to get even close to such a scenario.

Chiang Mai doesn't live up to the reputation of Phuket, Pattaya etc, but the same principles are at work. I just go with the flow. I'm a guest in Thailand, and the negatives imo are more than compensated for by the positives. Not that I could change anything if I wanted to, so rather than bang my head against the proverbial, it's _sabai sabai_ for me ...

Easy for me to say mind you - I don't work any more. Worked my butt off for years, took early retirement. Still from observation alone, it seems like using Western management methods in Thailand is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. I've seen similar in France, where US-owned corporations continue to have great difficulties trying to get both French subsidiary employees and suppliers to conform to the American model and work ethic. If it barely works in France, where there are more similarities than dissimilarities between the two cultures, it's hardly surprising that you are encountering problems where there's a much greater gulf between the two ways of life. 

Anyway, that's my tuppence worth!

Good luck...[/QUOTE]


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## Farang

Ah EllieC,
A well travelled expert, fantastic!
Your comment is a classic text book know it all response to something so evident. I too have worked in other cultures and know the most commen human desire, this applies to Canadians and I assume Europeans, "respect and recognition".
I think Frogblogger made it more clear, it's where you are and how to adapt. Everyone wants respect, the key is to what extent does one go to and realize that no matter how much respect and recognition you give there still exist a certain resentment.
I agree that with a tough economy things are much more difficult and that frustration is building more. Last week all of Laguna went on strike and guest had to take on new lodgings in Patong (about 700people). The Bangkok airport incident was another exampe, but really it only makes things worse.
Our occupancy is lower than last year, resulting in fewer diners and less service charge for local staff. Guest capture is super important and in times like these I would imagine everyone trying harder to wow travellers, it's not the case.
I've been in the hospitality industry now for 17years, all of which spent with respectable companies, and I can tell you having worked around the world it is in everyone's interest to get the guest to return.
Saying that, it is this challenge that me and other hoteliers face today in Phuket and around Thailand, the lack of ownership and care in keeping the customer. Respect is always there, it's their frustrations that result in poor service and bigger attitude making it difficult to service a demanding and competitive industry.
My issues are in that even with the most understanding and gentle way of approaching Thai's sometimes, it's a no win battle to bring them to their full potential without this grey area of resentment that keeps them from accepting global standards of training to help them be better at what they do and keep their property full of paying guest.
I'm checking out - thanks a bundle to the both of you for an interesting forum...









Yes in some circumstances I agree that certain male sensitivities can be upset, especially in alcohol-lubricated situations. The sterotype mentioned earlier can extend to the impression that Western guys (irrespective of size, shape and age) think they are God's gift to Thai women, and act accordingly. In many cases of course that stereotype is spot on. On the whole the Thai (males) are pretty cool about it, im my experience, although they cover up any simmering resentments pretty well.

Such resentments are more overtly expressed by the likes of the Khmer - previous experience of sitting minding my own business in a Phnom Penh nightclub on a couple of occasions bears this out. I was the only '_barang_' in the place however, I always seek out Westerner-free locations as far as I'm able, and this has its attendant risks. Still, even then such situations were easily defused well before reaching the point of no return. Helps when you hardly drink yourself, of course.



Full time, just over two years. I'm now a 'part-timer', 7 months in LOS, 5 in France each year (where I'd been an expat for a couple of decades). Back to full-time in Chiang Mai soon. Married to Thai, Thai daughter, as well as three Anglo-French kids.

_"Much is not appreciated"_ you say ... there's the rub. The problem is that we don't always appreciate the same things, it's a fundamental culture clash. 'Incentivisation' is wasted on the average Thai employee as a result. Different motivations in many ways. Offer the guy whose culture has programmed him to live for the moment a performance-related bonus in X months time, and it just doesn't compute. 

Plenty of imperfections in Thai society, not least a strong undercurrent of racism and a form of nationalism that can be easily channelled by the unscrupulous. The Thais are very naive in some ways, and easily manipulated.

Yes I agree cronyism, pandering to the rich, corruption etc are rampant. In your line of work it must be very difficult to remain calm at times! Still no matter what the provocation not maintaining equanimity equates to a loss of face, pure and simple. And as a farang, you would only be living up to expectations. Frustrating really because the pressure is on the farang to be twice as Thai as the Thais...

Giving money doesn't earn merit or respect mind you - it's what someone perceived to be in a certain position in the social hierarchy 'just does'. Not giving it when you are expected to earns plenty of usually silent disrespect, of course. Not quite a no-win situation, but close!

I'm still a bit bemused by the description of Thais 'snapping'. My experience is that it takes a lot of provocation to get even close to such a scenario.

Chiang Mai doesn't live up to the reputation of Phuket, Pattaya etc, but the same principles are at work. I just go with the flow. I'm a guest in Thailand, and the negatives imo are more than compensated for by the positives. Not that I could change anything if I wanted to, so rather than bang my head against the proverbial, it's _sabai sabai_ for me ...

Easy for me to say mind you - I don't work any more. Worked my butt off for years, took early retirement. Still from observation alone, it seems like using Western management methods in Thailand is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. I've seen similar in France, where US-owned corporations continue to have great difficulties trying to get both French subsidiary employees and suppliers to conform to the American model and work ethic. If it barely works in France, where there are more similarities than dissimilarities between the two cultures, it's hardly surprising that you are encountering problems where there's a much greater gulf between the two ways of life. 

Anyway, that's my tuppence worth!

Good luck...[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]


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## nomad4ever

For me it all depends as well on the region or location. If there are more foreigners, even the coolest Thais loose their temper easier. One example is Phuket, where I stayed something around 8 months.

There are so many foreigners now, that plenty of Thais are upsets and sometimes don't even suppress their anger with foreigners allegedly taking over their territory. And I'm not even talking about the struggles of the local bar mafia with the Russians. There are plenty of contract killings just between the locals alone, let alone fights with foreigners.

And let's not even talk about Pattaya. 

But hey, it's maybe like in Real Estate: Location, location, location.

;-)


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## Farang

You are right Nomad, people here are pissed at so many strangers taking more control of their land. To some extent I completely understand them, just sometimes from my side it's exausting. I invest alot of time in developement and it often goes unnoticed and unappreciated. What to do, as long as I'm here I'll savour my experience and hopefully look back and laugh at some of the things I went through....


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## KhwaamLap

Yeah agree with Nomad4Evere - where there are lots of tourists/backpackers (of the kee-nok kind) you will find disgruntled Thais. Large, drunk, semiclad, loutish football hooligans abound in parts of BKK, Pattaya and Phuket - can't really blame them for not liking us much.

The keyed car and rock may be an ex-employee or something - lots of Thais loosing their jobs right now and it does little to remove the nationistic xenophobia.


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## King Silk

*Pattaya*



nomad4ever said:


> For me it all depends as well on the region or location. If there are more foreigners, even the coolest Thais loose their temper easier. One example is Phuket, where I stayed something around 8 months.
> 
> There are so many foreigners now, that plenty of Thais are upsets and sometimes don't even suppress their anger with foreigners allegedly taking over their territory. And I'm not even talking about the struggles of the local bar mafia with the Russians. There are plenty of contract killings just between the locals alone, let alone fights with foreigners.
> 
> And let's not even talk about Pattaya.
> 
> But hey, it's maybe like in Real Estate: Location, location, location.
> 
> ;-)


No Lets talk about Pattaya where I have lived for the last five years.
The first thing to remember is that there are more young guys and gals here than in Isaan. They are here to get hold of as much Farang Cash as possible, and they are expert at it. 
Pattaya is certainly NOT the LOS. You are lucky to get a smile once a week and it will only be because you are buying something, in a Market say.
Coming from UK as I do, I am used to miserable faces so it doesn't bother me when I am confronted with them.

Tempers here are easily frayed and violence flares up every where any time with
shootings and stabbings being so regular we hardly bother to take note, unless we are involved. The secret when trouble appears likely is to walk away asap!.
Thais don't just want to win a fight, they mostly want to kill. It's in their nature.

But, perhaps THE most important thing to remember is that they don't want us here. They hate our guts, and only put up with us 'cos they get money from us.
Sorry, but it's true........

Fedup with female money grabbers, I now live alone with my lovely Dogs.
They NEVER ask me to send Mama bones.........


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## nomad4ever

*King Silk*, agree with you 100%. I lived in Phuket for a while and it is fast becoming similar to Pattaya. Where I live now, Goa in India, it's on a similar road also. Especially now during the economic downturn, people in the tourist industries become desperate.

In 3 months I will return to South East Asia, probably Indonesia or Philippines, some place not too close to mass tourism.

Like I said: Location, location, location.

;-)


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## skycop51

*My thoughts*

I have lived off and on in Thailand for many years. I know the Thai's fairly well. I find them for the most part very friendly and more so if you can speak a bit of Thai. Even if you just simply say hello. Of course you see resentment in some faces, that is not the norm. I have a good time, I smile and say hello. I plan to live here the rest of my life and plan on being happy. What about you?





Farang said:


> I'm an ex-pat and have been living in Thailand now for two years, I'm married to a Thai woman and seem to get a better understanding of the culture. The only thing that has me baffled sometimes is how often I witness violent response on minor issues such as asking for something different in a restaurant from local Thai people. I have also witnessed my boss get a rock thrown at his car one night and breaking his window before going home, and another Thai colleague getting his car keyed all around. Is this normal? I'm curious to know if there are any other Western or European ex-pats that either lived it or see it more often than none. I asked my wife and she said most Thai's, unless they have a close relationship with a foreigner do not particulary like foreigners, especially ex-pats; any comments?
> Cheers!
> Farang


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## Farang

Good on you that you found your happiness in Thailand. Perhaps if I had a posh villa to live in and a job that allowed me to work less with locals and more with internationals I might find this island a lovely place to settle down to.
But my reality might just be a tad different than yours, I don't find any humor in having to be a professional babysitter to any grown man or woman.
What I actually plan to do is tough it out until I finish my contract and then go back home for a spell, my real dream is to settle in Costa Rica. 5 1/2 hour flight to Toronto so I can see my family. My Thai wife is thrilled, she'll have more opportunity there and if you've never been to Costa Rica friend it's amazing!


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## skycop51

*I do not*

have to put up with anything really. I get up when I want, go where I want (travel alot) and do what I want. So my perspective is different to be certain. Do not anymore have money to travel internationally but can live well in Thailand. I have heard CR is wonderful, so is Koh Chang, Koh Mak etc. good luck nice hearing from you.




Farang said:


> Good on you that you found your happiness in Thailand. Perhaps if I had a posh villa to live in and a job that allowed me to work less with locals and more with internationals I might find this island a lovely place to settle down to.
> But my reality might just be a tad different than yours, I don't find any humor in having to be a professional babysitter to any grown man or woman.
> What I actually plan to do is tough it out until I finish my contract and then go back home for a spell, my real dream is to settle in Costa Rica. 5 1/2 hour flight to Toronto so I can see my family. My Thai wife is thrilled, she'll have more opportunity there and if you've never been to Costa Rica friend it's amazing!


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## Farang

*5555!!*

Sounds to me that you're living "la vida loca"!
I can understand how travelers mistake true identity in comparison to a working expat.
I would be in heaven if my days could be spent rolling out of bed when ever the booze wore off, or scratching my ass while thinking which cereal to eat, "Coco Crunch or All Bran".
I see where you're coming from and applaud your decision to kick life in the balls and do as you please. In fact I envy your idle life stlye and wish to God that I could be a real globe trotter and suck in that fresh air without a worry in my mind.
Until CR comes to play mate I have to slug it out, today we have a staff meeting with 150 disgruntled Thai's and explain why Spa therapists get a 10% commission, might have to call my friend the Police Chief to stand by...
Cheers to you Skycop, you are a bloody gem! 555!


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## Guest

King Silk said:


> No Lets talk about Pattaya where I have lived for the last five years.
> The first thing to remember is that there are more young guys and gals here than in Isaan. They are here to get hold of as much Farang Cash as possible, and they are expert at it.
> Pattaya is certainly NOT the LOS. You are lucky to get a smile once a week and it will only be because you are buying something, in a Market say.
> Coming from UK as I do, I am used to miserable faces so it doesn't bother me when I am confronted with them.
> 
> Tempers here are easily frayed and violence flares up every where any time with
> shootings and stabbings being so regular we hardly bother to take note, unless we are involved. The secret when trouble appears likely is to walk away asap!.
> Thais don't just want to win a fight, they mostly want to kill. It's in their nature.
> 
> But, perhaps THE most important thing to remember is that they don't want us here. They hate our guts, and only put up with us 'cos they get money from us.
> Sorry, but it's true........
> 
> Fedup with female money grabbers, I now live alone with my lovely Dogs.
> They NEVER ask me to send Mama bones.........


Don't want to knock your view too much - we're all entitled to our opinions - but talk about a stereotype! 

Pattaya's got its bad side, no doubt about that, but it doesn't represent Thailand or the Thai people any more than Benidorm represents Spain, or Saint Tropez France, etc etc etc. 

A country of murderous xenophobic money-grabbers? Boy, you must have had some bad experiences! I, on the other hand, must be fated to have the most incredible of good luck in comparison, having somehow managed to avoid anyone remotely like you describe - despite spending my entire time in the country in the company of Thais.

Perhaps I misunderstand and you weren't inferring that the inhabitants of Pattaya were in any way representative of the remainder of the country.


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## Farang

*Caution*

Let's remember where he lives, I agree it's not fair to generalize an entire population. But as a current resident of the southern provinces I have to agree a bit in that most Thai's here (large tourist destination) simply do not like farang.
I'm certain by what you write you are the most popular fellow in all of Thailand, but come on friend, let's take note from some of the expats that spend day and day out living here. Or people like myself who live here, it's not peaches and cream as you make it out to be.
I don't know you, but it seems to me (and pardon my assumption) that you come to Thailand and have a some what sheltered environment which obviously gives way to your bias of how things are in this country.
Just pick up the news paper now and then and you'll see violent explosions over a few baht. Let's not forget the young Canadian couple who travelled to Chang Rai a year or two ago. A police officer was signalling them and asked for a bribe, their naive approach had the young man get his brains blown away and the girl pistol whipped for simply arguing with the official police man. Special case, I think not, happens everyday.
Best thing would be to tell me to get out if I'm not content, not so easy as I'm on contract and married now. But believe me Frogblogger once I reach the point I will not shed a tear when it's time to leave.
I'm certain i will come back for holiday as my wife is from the southern provinces, but like you I'll be in la la land and spend endless days exploring and waking up when ever the first brew of joe is made up for me.
The point to my endless jabbering is please measure out the experience of different circumstances. This forum is to discuss everyone's experiences, so I think with all due respect read and perhaps learn another side to this wonderful place. 
Thanks Frogblogger, appreciate your comments.

FARANG


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## skycop51

*No alcohol*

hangovers and that. I am a older Retired Vietnam Veteran one who has lived a few years around the world. I am sick and just trying to live in peace. Atrocities here oh yes, there are no no's here, messIing with Thai Police is not a win win proposition. I live a bland life. Do not screw with anyone, shop, travel and do enjoy what I have earned.
I hope you all find your Peace, Pray to God everyday, something is about to happen if you have not noticed. Wake up please.






Farang said:


> Sounds to me that you're living "la vida loca"!
> I can understand how travelers mistake true identity in comparison to a working expat.
> I would be in heaven if my days could be spent rolling out of bed when ever the booze wore off, or scratching my ass while thinking which cereal to eat, "Coco Crunch or All Bran".
> I see where you're coming from and applaud your decision to kick life in the balls and do as you please. In fact I envy your idle life stlye and wish to God that I could be a real globe trotter and suck in that fresh air without a worry in my mind.
> Until CR comes to play mate I have to slug it tout, today we have a staff meeting with 150 disgruntled Thai's and explain why Spa therapists get a 10% commission, might have to call my friend the Police Chief to stand by...
> Cheers to you Skycop, you are a bloody gem! 555!


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## Farang

*No Coco Crunch?*

Well you've definately earned your stripes, no arguement there. I still disagree with you on a few points, but hey that's why we're here on this forum.
Not sure what you meant by "wake up", the world is a differnt place today than it was in the 60's, that's for sure. I'm not going to give you my resume Skycop, but if this ain't waking up I need Alice to lead me back to the rabbit hole.

Farang


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## Guest

Farang said:


> Let's remember where he lives, I agree it's not fair to generalize an entire population. But as a current resident of the southern provinces I have to agree a bit in that most Thai's here (large tourist destination) simply do not like farang.


My experience is that *some* don't particularly like the attitude of a certain sort of farang. Not the same thing at all. And quite understandable too, from what I've witnessed of the behaviour of a sizeable proportion of Western visitors.


Farang said:


> I'm certain by what you write you are the most popular fellow in all of Thailand, but come on friend, let's take note from some of the expats that spend day and day out living here. Or people like myself who live here, it's not peaches and cream as you make it out to be.


Hold on there... I'm one of these expats, don't forget!


Farang said:


> I don't know you, but it seems to me (and pardon my assumption) that you come to Thailand and have a some what sheltered environment which obviously gives way to your bias of how things are in this country.


Well as you say - you certainly don't know me! Unlike many I live virtually entirely in the company of a broad cross section of Thais, mostly pretty poor. I am married to a Thai, have a Thai child. I live in a relatively poor area of Chiang Mai, with precisely the kind of neighbours one might think would resent the average farang, going from previous descriptions. So "Farang", how do you think it can be that I've avoided any difficulties?


Farang said:


> Just pick up the news paper now and then and you'll see violent explosions over a few baht. Let's not forget the young Canadian couple who travelled to Chang Rai a year or two ago. A police officer was signalling them and asked for a bribe, their naive approach had the young man get his brains blown away and the girl pistol whipped for simply arguing with the official police man. Special case, I think not, happens everyday.


Anyone can produce anecdotal accounts that prove nothing, for any country in the world. Bribery, corruption, cronyism, are big problems in this country, I certainly wouldn't suggest otherwise. But I can come up with horror stories for any nation - and they are of course meaningless, proving nothing on a national/cultural scale. Less of the patronising attitude too - I "pick up as many newspapers" as the next man. 


Farang said:


> Best thing would be to tell me to get out if I'm not content, not so easy as I'm on contract and married now. But believe me Frogblogger once I reach the point I will not shed a tear when it's time to leave.


Shame you haven't come to appreciate all that is beautiful about the country and its people. Your loss!


Farang said:


> I'm certain i will come back for holiday as my wife is from the southern provinces, but like you I'll be in la la land and spend endless days exploring and waking up when ever the first brew of joe is made up for me.


One thing you should have cottoned on to by now. I'm no mug. The main reason I've not had a problem in Thailand or anywhere else come to that is that generally speaking, I can see it coming. Those that have problems are usually the naive sort who are unable to adapt to different ways, and blunder around making mistake after mistake. 


Farang said:


> The point to my endless jabbering is please measure out the experience of different circumstances. This forum is to discuss everyone's experiences, so I think with all due respect read and perhaps learn another side to this wonderful place.


If you haven't understood that the only way someone like me can avoid the problems you refer to, is by being more aware of them than most, more adept at dealing with them, and in most cases pre-empting their becoming a problem in the first place, then I am beginning to understand why you are having such a hard time in Thailand!


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## Guest

Farang said:


> Well you've definately earned your stripes, no arguement there. I still disagree with you on a few points, but hey that's why we're here on this forum.
> Not sure what you meant by "wake up", the world is a differnt place today than it was in the 60's, that's for sure. I'm not going to give you my resume Skycop, but if this ain't waking up I need Alice to lead me back to the rabbit hole.
> 
> Farang


Well the wake-up call is addressed to one and all, and I reckon I can guess exactly what he is referring to. The world has been blissfully heading down a one-way road to economic and ecological disaster for a while now, and the consequences may be dire indeed.

As for the digs ref Skycop's non-working expat status (and mine come to that) - I put in the hours, spent most of my working life abroad having set up my own business, and it happened to be a 'shift' that allowed me to 3/4 retire aged 39, having started with absolutely nothing. Of course to get 'lucky' it helps if one can successfully integrate into the culture where one has chosen to live and work, to perfectly understand the work ethic of the country in question, the people, the way their minds work. 

Those unable to do this generally speaking end up going home with their tails between their legs ...


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## Farang

*Chaa Ching!*

Mr.Frogblogger,
You certainly deserve a cold saucer of milk, great arguements with a tad of "temper temper" in your reply, interesting.
Me sir, well I guess a man like yourself has it all figured out, I tip my hat to you sir...
What can I say, your jive if quite savoury and easy to digest. In the end this forum allows us to express our opinions and I'm greatful for that. 
You remind me of my ex-girl friend, French Canadian, polically correct know it all, sorry had to throw that one in...
I'm in Phuket mate, come visit me some time and I'll take you on a tour. Talk is cheap I always say. And since you're a fellow expat in Thailand it might be a nice get away for you to see what I'm taking about...

Farang


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## Farang

*Kudos!*

Here here!!


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## King Silk

What ever anyone says Thais have a short fuse....end of story.


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## Guest

Farang said:


> Mr.Frogblogger,
> You certainly deserve a cold saucer of milk, great arguements with a tad of "temper temper" in your reply, interesting.
> Me sir, well I guess a man like yourself has it all figured out, I tip my hat to you sir...
> What can I say, your jive if quite savoury and easy to digest. In the end this forum allows us to express our opinions and I'm greatful for that.
> You remind me of my ex-girl friend, French Canadian, polically correct know it all, sorry had to throw that one in...
> I'm in Phuket mate, come visit me some time and I'll take you on a tour. Talk is cheap I always say. And since you're a fellow expat in Thailand it might be a nice get away for you to see what I'm taking about...
> 
> Farang


Phuket? Been there, done that, too many obnoxious farangs. No thanks mate! I prefer living in Thailand.

You're the one who made the uncalled for sly jibes - you need to be able to take a few in return. You started the thread, asked some questions. Sorry if the answers you got weren't the ones you wanted to hear!


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## skycop51

*Got off topic*

at the end. Very hard to say what I mean without writing a book. My country is in real trouble now economically. With a President who may not even be a citizen. Weather is changing not mostly our fault, lots going on most not good. That is what I meant, do some research. OK admit I listen to Savage Nation, I believe in Borders,Language, Culture, Ours.

All my best and without this or that I am happy with my uncomplicated life here in Thailand. Troubles here, I do not go to any clubs, do not go out to that scene. Makes me boring or smart? Do not mess with Police, if I must buy them lunch once and a while then I will.





frogblogger said:


> My experience is that *some* don't particularly like the attitude of a certain sort of farang. Not the same thing at all. And quite understandable too, from what I've witnessed of the behaviour of a sizeable proportion of Western visitors.
> 
> Hold on there... I'm one of these expats, don't forget!
> 
> Well as you say - you certainly don't know me! Unlike many I live virtually entirely in the company of a broad cross section of Thais, mostly pretty poor. I am married to a Thai, have a Thai child. I live in a relatively poor area of Chiang Mai, with precisely the kind of neighbours one might think would resent the average farang, going from previous descriptions. So "Farang", how do you think it can be that I've avoided any difficulties?
> 
> Anyone can produce anecdotal accounts that prove nothing, for any country in the world. Bribery, corruption, cronyism, are big problems in this country, I certainly wouldn't suggest otherwise. But I can come up with horror stories for any nation - and they are of course meaningless, proving nothing on a national/cultural scale. Less of the patronising attitude too - I "pick up as many newspapers" as the next man.
> 
> Shame you haven't come to appreciate all that is beautiful about the country and its people. Your loss!
> 
> One thing you should have cottoned on to by now. I'm no mug. The main reason I've not had a problem in Thailand or anywhere else come to that is that generally speaking, I can see it coming. Those that have problems are usually the naive sort who are unable to adapt to different ways, and blunder around making mistake after mistake.
> 
> If you haven't understood that the only way someone like me can avoid the problems you refer to, is by being more aware of them than most, more adept at dealing with them, and in most cases pre-empting their becoming a problem in the first place, then I am beginning to understand why you are having such a hard time in Thailand!


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## skycop51

Just got back from Koh Chang and Koh Mak farangs there they count on it. But quite if you ask me and very unspoiled. Plenty of bars and girls if you want it. You know what I think about that I have my wife and am so happy.

Good luck and Peace.


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## Farang

*Chai...*

No, I hear you loud and clear Skycop, if we are to reflect onto our planet and see the misery and injustice one might think to not stress the small stuff.
I too live a quiet simple life with my wife, work from 8am till 9pm regular, 6 days per week, sometimes finish at 11pm. I never complain because I love my profession, I'm a Chef...
But being in the field that I am logiccally I've moved around alot. Mostly for the experience to gain, not just from food but also from culture.
But you know there is one thing that struck me like a lightening bolt; I also have my own culture which I cherish.
Just like back home in Toronto, where I'm from you have people living there from all corners of the planet, name me a nationality and promise you'll find them.
Saying that, as an individual I have response to things, and as much as I keep myself aware of the situation on earth and in Thailand some things are just tough to swalllow.
As for why I'm not too happy here, well it really relates to my job. As a Chef I've already paid my dues and working here has taken away a part of the Chef that I sould be. This affects the quality I want, freshness, ect... What to do right? Right...
I too have to turn a blind eye to theft, bribes, so on and so forth...That's not how I want to continue my career, I guess to each their own.
I realize some have had wonderful exposure to wonderful parts of the Thai culture. Don't get me wrong, I have many friends and my wife is amazing, we get along so well. 
Working in an environment which requires constant attention and willingness to please paying guest takes a big part of your energy. Add that to a local work force that is unhappy and demands more than they recieve. Considering by Thai standards salary and benefits are competitive, I can't help but feel unhappy to have to justify every move or consequence when in fact me and the other expat hoteliers are taking more of the ownership, even on behalf of the many that refuse to take their own.
All and all this whole "Thai temper" thing in my opinion is legitimate. This is my experience and for many as well. Perhaps there is a difference when being exposed to Thai's in differnt scenario's. I read your's and Frogblogger's humble lives and your connections with the Thai's.
Doesn't prove much too me though, sorry...I have a brilliant connection with them, hard to explain but since you live here you might know what I'm talking about. 
I just need to make clear T.I.T (This is Thailand) - Good smiles, lovely people, hospitable, but also expolsive behavior, unfair attitude, violent reactions to small things.
We can go back and forth, really that's as much as I can write at this point. Even with Frogbloggers points, but it also just struct me! Sorry one last comment...Frogblogger, you're also a Farang, will be forever, you can live in Thailand for 10years. But remember you're still a "Farang" like the rest of us, never forget that.


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## skycop51

*I think you*

Have a real perspective and a good handle on the truths here in LOS. I can not write a huge paragraph about all that I have done/seen. Would need a book that no one would read. I have traveled wide and far, I am tired and not well. I too am in love again for the first time as John Lennon once said.
Would love to come eat at your resturant that is a real hard job. I have worked in a kitchen at a upscale establishment. Have seen how touch it is. All the best. 




Farang said:


> No, I hear you loud and clear Skycop, if we are to reflect onto our planet and see the misery and injustice one might think to not stress the small stuff.
> I too live a quiet simple life with my wife, work from 8am till 9pm regular, 6 days per week, sometimes finish at 11pm. I never complain because I love my profession, I'm a Chef...
> But being in the field that I am logiccally I've moved around alot. Mostly for the experience to gain, not just from food but also from culture.
> But you know there is one thing that struck me like a lightening bolt; I also have my own culture which I cherish.
> Just like back home in Toronto, where I'm from you have people living there from all corners of the planet, name me a nationality and promise you'll find them.
> Saying that, as an individual I have response to things, and as much as I keep myself aware of the situation on earth and in Thailand some things are just tough to swalllow.
> As for why I'm not too happy here, well it really relates to my job. As a Chef I've already paid my dues and working here has taken away a part of the Chef that I sould be. This affects the quality I want, freshness, ect... What to do right? Right...
> I too have to turn a blind eye to theft, bribes, so on and so forth...That's not how I want to continue my career, I guess to each their own.
> I realize some have had wonderful exposure to wonderful parts of the Thai culture. Don't get me wrong, I have many friends and my wife is amazing, we get along so well.
> Working in an environment which requires constant attention and willingness to please paying guest takes a big part of your energy. Add that to a local work force that is unhappy and demands more than they recieve. Considering by Thai standards salary and benefits are competitive, I can't help but feel unhappy to have to justify every move or consequence when in fact me and the other expat hoteliers are taking more of the ownership, even on behalf of the many that refuse to take their own.
> All and all this whole "Thai temper" thing in my opinion is legitimate. This is my experience and for many as well. Perhaps there is a difference when being exposed to Thai's in differnt scenario's. I read your's and Frogblogger's humble lives and your connections with the Thai's.
> Doesn't prove much too me though, sorry...I have a brilliant connection with them, hard to explain but since you live here you might know what I'm talking about.
> I just need to make clear T.I.T (This is Thailand) - Good smiles, lovely people, hospitable, but also expolsive behavior, unfair attitude, violent reactions to small things.
> We can go back and forth, really that's as much as I can write at this point. Even with Frogbloggers points, but it also just struct me! Sorry one last comment...Frogblogger, you're also a Farang, will be forever, you can live in Thailand for 10years. But remember you're still a "Farang" like the rest of us, never forget that.


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## King Silk

THIS is what I have been looking for! A Forum where people disagree, without being disagreeable! Try having a nice discussion like this in Thai Visa forum and the like.
All you will gets is insults!
Really nice to be a part of things here......


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## Guest

King Silk said:


> THIS is what I have been looking for! A Forum where people disagree, without being disagreeable! Try having a nice discussion like this in Thai Visa forum and the like.
> All you will gets is insults!
> Really nice to be a part of things here......


Hear hear, some of the stuff that goes on there is unbelievable.


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## skycop51

*I again*

with you. There is a very informative site, but you see alot of obscene things easy to see, get insulted and subjected to rude and obnoxious stuff. Excuse spell.
The name of the site is (teak???) has good side if you go just to get info, but not discussion IMHO.






King Silk said:


> THIS is what I have been looking for! A Forum where people disagree, without being disagreeable! Try having a nice discussion like this in Thai Visa forum and the like.
> All you will gets is insults!
> Really nice to be a part of things here......


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## oon007

Been in Thailand 8 years now,,,,never seen a problem,,,but i do live in the Country !!!!!


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## KhwaamLap

I know a Thai that broke his wife's arm by twisting up behind her back until it snapped. Both bones in the forearm - compound fractures that came through the skin. He was stone cold sober (didn't drink). No apparant reason for such a violent action, she asked him about his trip to Udon and a certain girl who had texted her (he had borrowed her mobile) with suspicious messages ('i miss you' etc). He had been caught out and, I gess lost face, so snapped. 

This was several years ago now (both worked together running a business that was sucessful back then) so no money worries or real pressure. The have been divorced for about five years again and both have new partners. She still says she fell over - I guessed straight off and both of them admitted it to me. She was ashamed and he felt very guilty about it.

Snap!


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## KhwaamLap

Double post - OK why does this keep happening? Is it MaxNet or just my laptop?


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## Guest

I'm on Maxnet too in CM, and that's one problem I'm not getting...


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## Serendipity2

Farang said:


> No, I hear you loud and clear Skycop, if we are to reflect onto our planet and see the misery and injustice one might think to not stress the small stuff.
> I too live a quiet simple life with my wife, work from 8am till 9pm regular, 6 days per week, sometimes finish at 11pm. I never complain because I love my profession, I'm a Chef...
> But being in the field that I am logiccally I've moved around alot. Mostly for the experience to gain, not just from food but also from culture.
> But you know there is one thing that struck me like a lightening bolt; I also have my own culture which I cherish.
> Just like back home in Toronto, where I'm from you have people living there from all corners of the planet, name me a nationality and promise you'll find them.
> Saying that, as an individual I have response to things, and as much as I keep myself aware of the situation on earth and in Thailand some things are just tough to swalllow.
> As for why I'm not too happy here, well it really relates to my job. As a Chef I've already paid my dues and working here has taken away a part of the Chef that I sould be. This affects the quality I want, freshness, ect... What to do right? Right...
> I too have to turn a blind eye to theft, bribes, so on and so forth...That's not how I want to continue my career, I guess to each their own.
> I realize some have had wonderful exposure to wonderful parts of the Thai culture. Don't get me wrong, I have many friends and my wife is amazing, we get along so well.
> Working in an environment which requires constant attention and willingness to please paying guest takes a big part of your energy. Add that to a local work force that is unhappy and demands more than they recieve. Considering by Thai standards salary and benefits are competitive, I can't help but feel unhappy to have to justify every move or consequence when in fact me and the other expat hoteliers are taking more of the ownership, even on behalf of the many that refuse to take their own.
> All and all this whole "Thai temper" thing in my opinion is legitimate. This is my experience and for many as well. Perhaps there is a difference when being exposed to Thai's in differnt scenario's. I read your's and Frogblogger's humble lives and your connections with the Thai's.
> Doesn't prove much too me though, sorry...I have a brilliant connection with them, hard to explain but since you live here you might know what I'm talking about.
> I just need to make clear T.I.T (This is Thailand) - Good smiles, lovely people, hospitable, but also expolsive behavior, unfair attitude, violent reactions to small things.
> We can go back and forth, really that's as much as I can write at this point. Even with Frogbloggers points, but it also just struct me! Sorry one last comment...Frogblogger, you're also a Farang, will be forever, you can live in Thailand for 10years. But remember you're still a "Farang" like the rest of us, never forget that.



Farang,

Thanks for the interesting perspective that many of us don't ever see. 

I'm wondering if part of your dilemma is your job. Obviously you love your work as a chef and must be good at it or you would have been long gone since being a chef is pretty demanding. You seem to have a great marriage too and love Thailand. So perhaps you should rethink your employment? Maybe I'm off base but perhaps not. Why not consider finding a more hospital area of Thailand to live in, raise your family - and start your own restaurant? You would then only need to please your guests and as your guests they are free to patronize your restaurant or not as they choose and you don't have to try pleasing a boss, staff and clients - sometimes an impossible task. Keep the restaurant small, simple and family - or as near to that as possible. 

Perhaps Chiang Mai would be a better place to live? [OK, I'm lobbying for your relocation] but all in all a pretty nice place. You would probably find a more appreciative clientele too! 

Serendipity2


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