# Female circumcision



## MaidenScotland

13-year-old girl dies after circumcision in Egypt
Egypt's Chief Prosecutor Abdul Meguid on Thursday ordered physician Fathiya Ahmad arrested and to stand trial at the Criminal Court for performing the banned procedure on 13-year-old Nermeen Al Hadad, who died later of complications from the surgery.
Egypt's Chief Prosecutor Abdul Meguid on Thursday ordered physician Fathiya Ahmad arrested and to stand trial at the Criminal Court for performing the banned procedure on 13-year-old Nermeen Al Hadad, who died later of complications from the surgery. The parents of the girl in the Nile Delta province of Menufya buried her without getting a permit from the local authorities.
Promote awareness
Minister of Family and Population, Mushira Khattab had reported the case to the Chief Prosecutor after a hotline service, set up to help children in distress, had received a tip off about the incident. "It all started when the Childcare Hotline was informed that the girl had died after the circumcision operation. Her family buried her without getting a permit or a death certificate to hide the crime," the minister said in a statement on Thursday .
"This case and the collusion of the girl's family with the doctor shows that there is still more needed to be done in order to promote public awareness about this phenomenon," said Shukri Saleh, a human rights activist.
Egypt banned the centuries-old practice in 2008.


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## MaidenScotland

British girls undergo horror of genital mutilation despite tough laws
Female circumcision will be inflicted on up to 2,000 British schoolgirls during the summer holidays – leaving brutal physical and emotional scars. Yet there have been no prosecutions against the practice
Some 500 to 2,000 British schoolgirls will be genitally mutilated over the summer holidays. Some will be taken abroad, others will be "cut" or circumcised and sewn closed here in the UK by women already living here or who are flown in and brought to "cutting parties" for a few girls at a time in a cost-saving exercise
Then the girls will return to their schools and try to get on with their lives, scarred mentally and physically by female genital mutilation (FGM), a practice that serves as a social and cultural bonding exercise and, among those who are stitched up, to ensure that chastity can be proved to a future husband.

Even girls who suffer less extreme forms of FGM are unlikely to be promiscuous. One study among Egyptian women found 50% of women who had undergone FGM "endured" rather than enjoyed sex1.
FGM is not confined to African countries. It has no basis in Christianity, it has no basis in Islam; none of Muhammad's daughters had it done. For some parents it is enough to let them know that and they will drop it completely. Everyone needs to understand that every child, no matter what the background or creed, is protected by this law in this land."


You can read the full report here British girls undergo horror of genital mutilation despite tough laws | Society | The Observer


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## elrasho

This is sickening! This is banned in Egypt and obviously the UK, how can this be going on? And tbh if it the parents ordering this to be done to their daughters it shows they are poor parents. Instead of FGM, they should teach they daughters how sex before marriage is wrong in Islam, this is the main reason they do it right?... to prevent their daughters of fornicating?


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## MaidenScotland

elrasho said:


> This is sickening! This is banned in Egypt and obviously the UK, how can this be going on? And tbh if it the parents ordering this to be done to their daughters it shows they are poor parents. Instead of FGM, they should teach they daughters how sex before marriage is wrong in Islam, this is the main reason they do it right?... to prevent their daughters of fornicating?




I think it is mainly done in mainly African Islamic communities despite it not being Islamic and yes it is to prevent their daughters fornicating. I must disagree with your point in they should teach their daughters that sex before marriage is wrong in Islam as it takes two to tango. Why the emphasis on the girl?

Maiden


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## xabiaxica

MaidenScotland said:


> I think it is mainly done in mainly African Islamic communities despite it not being Islamic and yes it is to prevent their daughters fornicating. I must disagree with your point in they should teach their daughters that sex before marriage is wrong in Islam as it takes two to tango. Why the emphasis on the girl?
> 
> Maiden


I thought it was done to prevent them _enjoying_ it?


for whatever reason it's appalling & I can't believe it still happens - & can't believe there are mothers who allow this to happen!

I saw a documentary recently about this in a tribe in Africa (I think) - it was almost like a celebration & actually performed by the women!


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## MaidenScotland

It is used to stop girls having sexual urges and fornicating before marriage... yes woman do it but it is mainly because they have been brought up in a society that tells them that their daughters will be whores and will not get a husband if they do not have it done.
I have personal knowledge of it being done here and it was the father that insisted that it was done so that the girl would get a good marriage.

Why do men who claim to be the stronger sex need protecting from the weaker one? lol


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## Beatle

xabiachica said:


> I thought it was done to prevent them _enjoying_ it?
> 
> 
> for whatever reason it's appalling & I can't believe it still happens - & can't believe there are mothers who allow this to happen!
> 
> I saw a documentary recently about this in a tribe in Africa (I think) - it was almost like a celebration & actually performed by the women!


I think there are different reasons for FGM, The Observer article cited above states:

"Cleanliness, neatness of appearance and the increased sexual pleasure for the man are all motivations for the practice. But the desire to conform to tradition is the most powerful motive."

It is performed by women and it seems to beregarded as a celebratory moment in some cultures - it's like a rite of passage. 

A UNICEF study in Egypt suggested 97% of Egyptian women had been subject to this practice.


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## elrasho

Maiden your right it takes two to tango, both male and female need to be educated that it's wrong in Islam to have sex before marriage. Its funny how when you ask someone why they do this to their daughters they say "to prevent other thinking my daughter is a whore", surly they should be more worried about their daughter getting punished in the afterlife for committing a great sin... that's from an Islami point of view. Tell ya culture and religion don't mix well.

Beatle, that stat has got to be wrong. The FGM is mostly done my remote tribes, and 97% of the female population of Egypt are not tribes women


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## MaidenScotland

elrasho said:


> Maiden your right it takes two to tango, both male and female need to be educated that it's wrong in Islam to have sex before marriage. Its funny how when you ask someone why they do this to their daughters they say "to prevent other thinking my daughter is a whore", surly they should be more worried about their daughter getting punished in the afterlife for committing a great sin... that's from an Islami point of view. Tell ya culture and religion don't mix well.




It is a great sin in Christianity also... but how many of us are born in to a religion? Being brought up in a faith doesn't necessarily make us believers.


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## elrasho

MaidenScotland said:


> It is a great sin in Christianity also... but how many of us are born in to a religion? Being brought up in a faith doesn't necessarily make us believers.


Indeed but the way I see it, and this is just my opinion, is that the parents should educate their children about the do's and don'ts of their religion. I suppose alot of it depends on the surrounding of the child in question, if they hang with the wrong crowd no matter how well their parents try the child is going to be greatly influenced by their friends.

And yes being a "believer" is totally different to being brought up in a faith.


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## Beatle

elrasho said:


> Beatle, that stat has got to be wrong. The FGM is mostly done my remote tribes, and 97% of the female population of Egypt are not tribes women


Who says it is done only by "remote tribes"?


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## Beatle

elrasho;355607
Beatle said:


> Will try and find the original survey but here is an article referring to it:
> 
> Egypt bans female circumcision after death of 12-year-old girl | World news | The Guardian
> 
> Whilst the Egyptian governments statistics are far lower than other statistics on this subject, those statistics are also frightening about the level of FGM that was being performed in Egypt although those surveys pre-date the ban on FGM in Egypt.


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## DeadGuy

I don't think the figures are accurate, cause if they were then that would mean there are only 3 healthy females out of each 100 females! I just can't get a fix on that!

The whole thing is about education, well educated people who understand how things really work never actually let that happen! The only people who let that happen are the ones who are basically living in their own fantasy world where every girl is a "whore" till she gets that thing done! And those people don't really exist that much in here these days, but some of them is still there and they're too stupid to believe in anything else, also a friend of mine told me that it's usually the older generations (Grandparents!) that ask for those weird stuff to be done! I remember he told me that his grandmother TOLD him not to drive his new car without cutting a cow's throat in front of the car, then to dip his bare hands into the blood then to mark the whole car's body with his 5 fingers' bloody marks! (Sorry for the visuals!) Or else he'd die as soon as he steps into the car! (Her point of view was that people's "envy" will get him killed if he never did that!) Of course he never did that, and he's still alive LOL!

As for the religious part of it, all religions are clear about what's right or wrong, I'm not that religious but as far as I know there is no religion telling people to cut their kids' body organs as a "pre cautious" act! They're not even proven to be "whores"! It's really pathetic!

If a female that had no FGM crap done is a "whore" then I think I'd prefer to marry a whore than to have a totally weird stupid people as my in-laws!! No one really needs that kind of in-laws lol


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## MaidenScotland

The girl I know who had it done was from Behera... .
DG I think the statistics are probably wrong but then again would any girl that you know tell you she had it done? I wouldn't imagine it is something that is talked about much.

Maiden


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## elrasho

Beatle said:


> Who says it is done only by "remote tribes"?


I know a few Egyptian guys who told me


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## MaidenScotland

elrasho said:


> I know a few Egyptian guys who told me




Lol Bless you.


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## elrasho

MaidenScotland said:


> Lol Bless you.


I see what your saying, I'm a gullible guy  Although I've known some of them for years if that means anything


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## MaidenScotland

elrasho said:


> I see what your saying, I'm a gullible guy  Although I've known some of them for years if that means anything




Lol No it means nothing.


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## Beatle

DeadGuy said:


> I don't think the figures are accurate, cause if they were then that would mean there are only 3 healthy females out of each 100 females! I just can't get a fix on that!


Here's the report:

http://www.unicef.org/publications/files/FGM-C_final_10_October.pdf

Look at the statistics on page 4.


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## Beatle

DeadGuy said:


> I don't think the figures are accurate, cause if they were then that would mean there are only 3 healthy females out of each 100 females! I just can't get a fix on that!


I know what you mean though - I can't really get my head round it either.


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## DeadGuy

MaidenScotland said:


> The girl I know who had it done was from Behera... .
> DG I think the statistics are probably wrong but then again would any girl that you know tell you she had it done? I wouldn't imagine it is something that is talked about much.
> 
> Maiden


Well, I'll try not to be so judgmental about the "Behera" thing, but I seriously doubt that the poor girl's family originally comes from there, probably a small village or so, I've heard that her father is a farmer and her mother is a housewife that helps her husband a bit, I also don't wanna throw much of the blame on them, they're pretty locals, but 99% of my blame would go on the bloody stupid "doctor" who dared to do that to the girl!

As for talking about that thing, surprisingly yes, people with those sick twisted mentalities would actually show up with something like that!!!


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## DeadGuy

Beatle said:


> Here's the report:
> 
> http://www.unicef.org/publications/files/FGM-C_final_10_October.pdf
> 
> Look at the statistics on page 4.


Well, I'll quote the report at the part that says "This can also be explained, however, by the fact that girls in Egypt generally undergo FGM/C between the ages of 7 and 11, and it would therefore take at least one generation for any decline to be reflected in the data."

I live in a big small city and I got friends who work as doctors in the city's public hospital, there aren't such cases that are happening in here, also in small villages near by, nothing like that has been happening in a long period of time, although I have to admit that those stupid people never actually use hospitals, they just try to do everything they need on their own, or by the help of other stupid villagers who advertise themselves as a qualified person to do that FGM thing! They only use hospitals for critical issues!

Damn they need to use their brains a bit more!


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## Beatle

DeadGuy said:


> Well, I'll quote the report at the part that says "This can also be explained, however, by the fact that girls in Egypt generally undergo FGM/C between the ages of 7 and 11, and it would therefore take at least one generation for any decline to be reflected in the data."
> 
> I live in a big small city and I got friends who work as doctors in the city's public hospital, there aren't such cases that are happening in here, also in small villages near by, nothing like that has been happening in a long period of time, although I have to admit that those stupid people never actually use hospitals, they just try to do everything they need on their own, or by the help of other stupid villagers who advertise themselves as a qualified person to do that FGM thing! They only use hospitals for critical issues!
> 
> Damn they need to use their brains a bit more!


I would hope there has been a decline in the data, particularly after the ban. What was interesting though is how Egypt's rate (at the time) compared with other countries. This article suggests that the practice is still "widespread" however.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/IRIN/14e20b8916f8072cd6399c10ea34e709.htm


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## DeadGuy

Beatle said:


> I would hope there has been a decline in the data, particularly after the ban. What was interesting though is how Egypt's rate (at the time) compared with other countries. This article suggests that the practice is still "widespread" however.
> 
> Reuters AlertNet - EGYPT: FGM/C still widespread, says WHO-funded study


Well what I can say is that this thing will never stop happening as long as people who think that a girl is an object, not a person........and it doesn't seem that "people" in here will stop "thinking" this way any time soon, even if the FGM thing isn't happening that often!


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## Sam

Wow, what a controversial subject - also the opinion seems to be unanimous.

I also can't believe the 97% statistic. I was under the impression it was still prevalent in villages, and almost always is done in private homes not hospitals. But 97% seems way too high. I know many Egyptian women and none of them have had it done. Unless they just didn't admit it!


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## MaidenScotland

Sam said:


> Wow, what a controversial subject - also the opinion seems to be unanimous.
> 
> I also can't believe the 97% statistic. I was under the impression it was still prevalent in villages, and almost always is done in private homes not hospitals. But 97% seems way too high. I know many Egyptian women and none of them have had it done. Unless they just didn't admit it!




I think you might find they wont admit it.
I was first aware of this when a girl I knew went to have it done and in my naivety I mentioned it to my neighbours who are from Tanta and very well educated and they agreed with me it is a horrific thing. Ten years down the line I now know that their daughters had this inflicted on them, their daughters at the time aged 23 sat there whilst we discussed it and also said it was horrific and barbaric but like many many Egyptian women they chose or were they told to say nothing


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## Sam

MaidenScotland said:


> I think you might find they wont admit it.
> I was first aware of this when a girl I knew went to have it done and in my naivety I mentioned it to my neighbours who are from Tanta and very well educated and they agreed with me it is a horrific thing. Ten years down the line I now know that their daughters had this inflicted on them, their daughters at the time aged 23 sat there whilst we discussed it and also said it was horrific and barbaric but like many many Egyptian women they chose or were they told to say nothing


It just doesn't make sense, if it is just a good thing then surely they should be proud to have it done, illegal or not. If they believe being uncircumcised is akin to being a whore, then why "admit to being a whore" when they have been cut? It seems to imply they know it is wrong, so why do it?! 

A logic I shall never understand and never hope to.


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## MensEtManus

My memory fails me, but someone or I might have it read it somewhere that a religious leader once said in order to protect Egyptian gals from becoming whores (because Egyptian gals are the horniest humans on earth) they should be subjected to FGM to protect the males from the lust and indecency exposed by females on a "constant basis". 

I mean it is similar to the whole lollipop advertisement (http://sarahstil.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/hijab2wp1.jpg) unveiled = whores, veiled = respectful. 

I guess as long as folks are poor with lots of time to play Socrates, they will show their powers over the one person they know they control... females...


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## SandyGluck

*Why?*

Why is the absense of a clitoris in a woman a cause for increased pleasure for a man? I don't get it.






Beatle said:


> I think there are different reasons for FGM, The Observer article cited above states:
> 
> "Cleanliness, neatness of appearance and the increased sexual pleasure for the man are all motivations for the practice. But the desire to conform to tradition is the most powerful motive."
> 
> It is performed by women and it seems to beregarded as a celebratory moment in some cultures - it's like a rite of passage.
> 
> A UNICEF study in Egypt suggested 97% of Egyptian women had been subject to this practice.


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## MaidenScotland

SandyGluck said:


> Why is the absense of a clitoris in a woman a cause for increased pleasure for a man? I don't get it.




Not for a normal man.... 

I would imagine he gets pleasure knowing she isn't so she is not whoring around when he is out at work


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## elrasho

FGM benifits no one. The woman won't feel the plesures of intercourse and in turn the man won't get the same "buzz" from it. These religious leaders need talking to, it doesn't say anywhere in the Quran that this should be done. In fact your not allowed to mutilate your body, things like tatoos are forbidden for crying out loud!

If FGM is used to prevent a woman of fornicating and to reduce lust, then under the same logic men should have there "sensitive" bits taken care of too. But no that wont happen because apparently men are better than woman, I hate it so much when I here that. I come from a culture very similar to this, but I have disowned most of what of my culture is about as alot of it clashes with Islam.

God gave us the ability to reproduce and part of that is the pleasure gained from having intercourse with your loved one. By performing FGM you are preventing one of Gods great gifts. 

All parties need to be educated about this. The parents should not resort to FGM instead educate their daughters about sex and its place in religion (this is from an Islamic point of view, I don't know about other religions). The daughters must also stay steadfast and understand the implications of following any misguided desires.


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## expatagogo

Egyptians have been cutting girl bits off and sewing girl bits up for as long as those pyramids are old - and maybe even longer. The 97% statistic is probably accurate as it's only recently been completely illegal.


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## MaidenScotland

Source... bbc news

There are giggles and shouts as little children play boisterously in the dusty street by the Hadad family home in the village of Abu Nashaba.

Just inside the front door, however, a mother dressed in black is sitting on the floor weeping silently. It is less than a month since the death of her 13-year-old daughter, Nermeen.


The girl died in a nearby health clinic and was buried without a permit from the local authorities.

After an anonymous tip to a government telephone hotline, her doctor has been arrested on suspicion of carrying out an illegal operation to circumcise her.

This case in the Nile Delta governorate of Menufiya has raised fresh concern that, despite a ban passed two years ago, female genital mutilation (FGM) remains a widespread practice.

"She was a very good girl who never lied or gossiped, and she was an excellent student," says Nermeen's grandmother as she shows off her school certificates and English exercise books.

She denies the child was taken for FGM surgery.

She was sick so we took her to the clinic and the doctor gave her an injection. Nobody hurt her. It was God's will to take her," she says.

Cultural practice
Yet in her village, most women say genital mutilation is a procedure they have had done, and that their daughters should also have, to ensure they can find husbands when they grow up.

"We're an Arab country and here it's a must to do this operation. It should be done for marriage," comments one shopper in the market.

"We were brought up to believe in this," a woman stall-keeper adds. "It's been done since our ancestors' time to prevent sexual temptation."

"If it's not done, a girl will grow to be like a man," whispers a shy young mother, repeating a widely held superstition.

Nine out of every 10 Egyptian women have had the procedure, according to official figures. The practice is said to date back to Pharaonic times and is most common in poor, rural communities.

Girls as young as five will usually be taken to a clinic to be cut. The procedure can be very painful and carries serious health risks. For some, it causes life-long trauma.
Prosecutions
In 2008, a law prohibiting female genital mutilation, or female circumcision as it is also known, was brought in following the death of a 12-year-old girl.

Some medical workers have since been prosecuted, and clinics have been closed down for carrying out the procedure.


At a special event in upper Egypt, villagers discuss the issue and sign pledges against FGM
Government statistics show the number of girls aged 15 to 17 who have been circumcised has dropped slightly - from 77% in 2005 to 74% three years later.

"The practice has declined, definitely it has declined, but I'm also sure that there are cases happening underground," says Family Minister Mushira Khattab.

"There is conspiracy between the parents and the perpetrators, be it the doctor or the nurse or whoever."

She accepts more work must be done to raise public awareness of the dangers of FGM.


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