# Building permits



## susieveitch (Jul 19, 2014)

Hi

We are purchasing an apartment that has had the patio glazed with folding doors. Apparently a licence is required for this and the owner didn't get one. Does anyone know how much this licence would if we have to apply retrospectively? 
Any help would be appreciated. 

Thanks


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

susieveitch said:


> Hi
> 
> We are purchasing an apartment that has had the patio glazed with folding doors. Apparently a licence is required for this and the owner didn't get one. Does anyone know how much this licence would if we have to apply retrospectively?
> Any help would be appreciated.
> ...


:welcome:

it isn't always possible to apply retrospectively - I've known people try & open up a can of worms for themselves - other things were found which should have had permission & an entire extension was ordered destroyed!! 

that is hopefully not the case here, but you never know!


the best thing you can do is insist that the_ vendors _get everything legalised before you purchase


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> :welcome:
> 
> it isn't always possible to apply retrospectively - I've known people try & open up a can of worms for themselves - other things were found which should have had permission & an entire extension was ordered destroyed!!
> 
> ...


Agree with xabiachica because you may find that the problem, if there is one, is with the neighbours not the local authorities. Flat owners have to get permission from their neighbours in the building as well as the council so that's 2 sets of permission that have to be in place before building goes ahead.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I've heard of cases where the work has had to be removed before you can apply for the relevant permissions retrospectively - if this is still the case, even if the permission is granted, its going to be costly and messy

Jo xxx


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

As most will know, in relation to a building, the community charges are based on the percentage of the building which is occupied by each owner. This will usually be the ‘enclosed area.’ So if you enclosed an additional area, then the percentage you have compared with all the other owners changes. 

Therefore, a community will not give permission for the enclosure and thus the municipality will not be able to issues a licence.

In a perfectly legal world, when an area is enclosed, it would mean every owner’s percentage would need to change in their escritura, involving a lot of paperwork, fees etc. Thus it probably has never happened and never will. 


Unless the application of the law changes, very very unlikely, nothing will happen in the type of situation you mention . So Susie just do what everyone has done since 'the beginning of time in Spain' ignore it.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> the best thing you can do is insist that the_ vendors _get everything legalised before you purchase


That is probably the best advice to give but unfortunately a lot of the time the vendors wont do this. It's something we have come across at least.
There was a pool and a couple of out buildings that where on the catastral but not the nota simple and we were quoted it would take about 3500euros to have it added.

The seller had no intention of doing this though as he felt the price was already low enough.
Fair enough I can see his point but don't really care, I'm still astounded that such a mess can come about in the first place and frankly it shouldn't be possible to sell a property like that. Still though 95% of the properties we have looked at have to some degree had something missing or not declared, it's got to a point now where if something is not declared then we have to consider whether or not we can live with tearing it down or go to the faff of declaring it.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Is it still the case that if the alteration has been in place for more than 4 years, the council can't do anything about it anyway?
In the case of glazing in a terrace which already has a roof and arches, I cannot see why it should need permission, as it is already a usable space; glazing it in merely weather proofs it. It it is just a tiled terrace with no roof or sides, that's different.
Hundreds of villas here have had this done.
I bet very few got a licence for it, let alone putting it on the escritura.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

extranjero said:


> Is it still the case that if the alteration has been in place for more than 4 years, the council can't do anything about it anyway?
> In the case of glazing in a terrace which already has a roof and arches, I cannot see why it should need permission, as it is already a usable space; glazing it in merely weather proofs it. It it is just a tiled terrace with no roof or sides, that's different.
> Hundreds of villas here have had this done.
> I bet very few got a licence for it, let alone putting it on the escritura.


Maybe.
I'd still get the seller to take responsibility for it, mainly because of the neighbours.
In some areas you're supposed to get a licence for even painting/ tiling inside walls, so it doesn't really matter whether you see a need for it or not.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

We were told if it has been there for 4 years then it should be able to be fully legalised/declared, on urban land that is. But it was going to be at cost(possibly back taxes?) and subject to a surveyors report that would state the age of the structure, again at cost.
To be honest it seemed perfectly overcomeable and the 3500 quoted was not crippling but it should be the vendors responsibility. 
We probably wouldn't of let that bother us though, we'd either of done it right or got rid of it. There were other more tenuous issues that put the mockers on that sale.


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

Quote _Is it still the case that if the alteration has been in place for more than 4 years, the council can't do anything about it anyway?_

I used to understand that but as houses are being demolished that have stood for longer that that, my understanding would seem to wrong.

The only way the glazed in terrace can be made legal, 100%, is to pull it down.

As I said, in Spain ignoring it is the 'way it is done'.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

extranjero said:


> Is it still the case that if the alteration has been in place for more than 4 years, the council can't do anything about it anyway?
> In the case of glazing in a terrace which already has a roof and arches, I cannot see why it should need permission, as it is already a usable space; glazing it in merely weather proofs it. It it is just a tiled terrace with no roof or sides, that's different.
> Hundreds of villas here have had this done.
> I bet very few got a licence for it, let alone putting it on the escritura.


I've heard this a lot but suspect it is just 'pub gossip'. I've also heard that it's changed to 6 or 7 years.

My understanding is that if it ever existed (as a rule), then it doesn't any more.

I thin Xabiachica is right, get them to sort it before you complete the purchase. In today's climate it's still a buyers market - would they want you to walk away from the sale?


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

snikpoh said:


> I_ think Xabiachica is right, get them to sort it before you complete the purchase._


Quote: The only way the glazed in terrace can be made legal, 100%, is to pull it down.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

larryzx said:


> Quote: The only way the glazed in terrace can be made legal, 100%, is to pull it down.


that depends...


while it will be pretty much impossible on an urb of similar properties, or an apartment block .... there's an outside chance it's possible on an individual house in its own grounds


either way, I think we're all agreed that it's not the purchaser's responsibility -it's the vendor's

I know it _can _happen, because our ayto has, over past couple of years, issued retrospective planning permission for all kinds of things from extensions to pools

along with other aytos, they checked from the air .... those granted retrospective permission now pay the correct amount of IBI


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> that depends...
> 
> 
> while it will be pretty much impossible on an urb of similar properties, or an apartment block .... there's an outside chance it's possible on an individual house in its own grounds
> ...


So sorry you are missing the point. This is an apartment not an individual building.

As I explained in an earlier post, To get a building licence / permission, one must have permission from the community, and that is impossible because it would change percentages of each of all the owners.

So demolishing the illegally built structure is the only way to legalise it. That is why I said the new owner should just ignore it and get on with enjoying living in the property.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

snikpoh said:


> would they want you to walk away from the sale?



From experience, yes.

Honestly, some agents seem surprised that you have your own lawyer. I think a large majority of Spanish musn't care in the slightest.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

larryzx said:


> So sorry you are missing the point. This is an apartment not an individual building.
> 
> As I explained in an earlier post, To get a building licence / permission, one must have permission from the community, and that is impossible because it would change percentages of each of all the owners.
> 
> So demolishing the illegally built structure is the only way to legalise it. That is why I said the new owner should just ignore it and get on with enjoying living in the property.


no - you are missing _my_ point

yes the OP is thinking of buying an apartment

but this thread will potentially be read by 1000s of people so I thought it would be useful to expand & explain that it _might_ be possible for different types of property, which I thought was pretty clear in my post 




so thought that I'd expand & clarify that for different types of


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pazcat said:


> From experience, yes.
> 
> Honestly, some agents seem surprised that you have your own lawyer. I think a large majority of Spanish musn't care in the slightest.


until they are issued with a demolition order..


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

larryzx said:


> So sorry you are missing the point. This is an apartment not an individual building.
> 
> As I explained in an earlier post, To get a building licence / permission, one must have permission from the community, and that is impossible because it would change percentages of each of all the owners.
> 
> So demolishing the illegally built structure is the only way to legalise it. That is why I said the new owner should just ignore it and get on with enjoying living in the property.



Frustratingly, I find you are WRONG - again!

A very good friend of mine has a flat in a block in Calpe. Some years ago he wanted to glaze in half of his balcony.

He went to the community to ask for permission - no problem (in writing).

He went to the town hall and got the necessary licences - no problem.

His community charge figure did NOT change.

Now, I know he did all this up-front and not retrospectively, but it does prove that flats in a community CAN get permission.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> until they are issued with a demolition order..


Well yes, I guess it's a possibility you would have to be prepared for.

Going by the sheer numbers of properties with some degree illegal building on it I don't think many are shaking in their boots though.

I also think that if you come across a property that you absolutely love then you should be prepared to work with the owner to get it legalised before sale if possible. It's not the most desirable way of doing things but there are more properties out there not properly declared than there are declared ones so it's a strong possibility that it is something many home buyers will come up against.

I wouldn't turn my back on a property simply because the pool isn't supposed to be there or there is a glazed terrace. These things I can live without, having them legalised is certainly preferable but I'd sooner get rid of it if it was to be a problem.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Pazcat said:


> I also think that if you come across a property that you absolutely love then you should be prepared to work with the owner to get it legalised before sale if possible. It's not the most desirable way of doing things but there are more properties out there not properly declared than there are declared ones so it's a strong possibility that it is something many home buyers will come up against.
> 
> I wouldn't turn my back on a property simply because the pool isn't supposed to be there or there is a glazed terrace. These things I can live without, having them legalised is certainly preferable but I'd sooner get rid of it if it was to be a problem.


I think there's a lot of difference between a pool that isn't supposed to be there in a house and a glazed in balcony. I think the pool could be a lot more difficult to sort out legally and I think quite a few peope have had to fill in their pools.
A balcony or anything to do with the outside of flats(aerials, awnings etc) is a matter of getting the approval of the neighbours in the comunidad meetings so for me, I reiterate, one thing you have to do is make sure there are no problems with the neighbours because if you move into a new place and there are already problems, life could get complicated. You can get in touch with the current president and if needs be with the lawyer who has to be present at all comunidad meetings


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think there's a lot of difference between a pool that isn't supposed to be there in a house and a glazed in balcony. I think the pool could be a lot more difficult to sort out legally and I think quite a few peope have had to fill in their pools.


I imagine it depends on the area too, I know some regions have a total ban on any new pools due to lack of water so in that case yes it would have to go. That said the last place we had investigated it would of been a simple process with the Town Hall to have it put on the deeds applying the 4 year rule and an open wallet. 
I'd like to say this should be the case everywhere and it should be easy enough to do but clearly it isn't.
And yes it should be the vendors responsibility but there is a big chance that they simply don't care but as long as a buyer is aware of that it can be factored in to the negotiations at least.

I remember a while ago somebody was posting that a way around the pool ban in one area was to declare it as a water deposit and to plant trees around it to obscure it from picture. I believe this may of even been coming from an agent.
Not the best advert of their skills and no wonder those who try to do things the right way have to clean up their [email protected]% afterwards.


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

snikpoh said:


> Frustratingly, I find you are WRONG - again!
> 
> A very good friend of mine has a flat in a block in Calpe. Some years ago he wanted to glaze in half of his balcony.
> 
> ...


Well I am glad we cleared that up.

One person whom you know, you are told, did something.

Well that makes my personal experience, of actually making building alterations, in three different municipalities, obtaining several building licences for small works, and personally assisting several people, who wanted to get permissions and licences in several municipalities, pale into insignificant.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

larryzx said:


> Well I am glad we cleared that up.
> 
> One person whom you know, you are told, did something.
> 
> Well that makes my personal experience, of actually making building alterations, in three different municipalities, obtaining several building licences for small works, and personally assisting several people, who wanted to get permissions and licences in several municipalities, pale into insignificant.


just proves what we all know

that things can & do vary from town to town

also that some apartment blocks &/or urbanisations have different rules than others


there's one near me which denounced one owner for glazing his roof terrace without permission & made him pull it down

and another where several have done just that, all with community & ayto permission

quite what they did about community fees I don't know - but it does happen


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> just proves what we all know
> 
> that things can & do vary from town to town
> 
> ...


... and that was my point really. I worked with my friend (personally) and so know that different areas have different rules.

I guess I objected to the comment that it was 'impossible' to do what my friend has done!


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