# Moving to Spain "Dream Shattered"



## spicer187171

After reading the post today 3rd sept *Costa Del Sol, Last Brits Standing*, my dream have shattered into pieces. My dream was to move to Albox, Huercal Overa area, to live out my retirement, but now I'll think again. I have so many negative thoughts that I feel that moving to Spain has died of death. I'm going to find, I hard to watch the programme on BBC IPlayer. When you hear of properties being demolished, the crime, and how careful you have to be, and the people who have moved back, the unemployment, Now I just don't know anymore. IS PORTUGAL ANY BETTER? I'm not so keen on the type of properties there, as there not as nice as they are it Spain. I just don't know...Joe


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## jojo

spicer187171 said:


> After reading the post today 3rd sept *Costa Del Sol, Last Brits Standing*, my dream have shattered into pieces. My dream was to move to Albox, Huercal Overa area, to live out my retirement, but now I'll think again. I have so many negative thoughts that I feel that moving to Spain has died of death. I'm going to find, I hard to watch the programme on BBC IPlayer. When you hear of properties being demolished, the crime, and how careful you have to be, and the people who have moved back, the unemployment, Now I just don't know anymore. IS PORTUGAL ANY BETTER? I'm not so keen on the type of properties there, as there not as nice as they are it Spain. I just don't know...Joe


Why dont you go over, rent for a while and try it before you make a decision???

Jo xxx


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## Lynn R

You need to keep a sense of perspective. Yes, some unfortunate people who bought properties in Spain have had very bad experiences, and yes, it is very tough indeed to move here if you need to find work of any kind.

However, there are many thousands more of us who have moved here and are living perfectly happily, in either bought or rented properties. Some people are running businesses or in jobs (quite a lot of them were here before the recession began and have weathered the storm successfully) and many more of us are retired or early retired so don't need to find a job. These days more and more people can work remotely from anywhere in the world so we see more and more of them planning to move to Spain.

Crime, whilst it does exist, is no worse than it is in the places from whence we came.

I wouldn't let one TV programme with a very selective view put you off, if you have a source of income and are prepared to do your research properly.


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## baldilocks

spicer187171 said:


> After reading the post today 3rd sept *Costa Del Sol, Last Brits Standing*, my dream have shattered into pieces. My dream was to move to Albox, Huercal Overa area, to live out my retirement, but now I'll think again. I have so many negative thoughts that I feel that moving to Spain has died of death. I'm going to find, I hard to watch the programme on BBC IPlayer. When you hear of properties being demolished, the crime, and how careful you have to be, and the people who have moved back, the unemployment, Now I just don't know anymore. IS PORTUGAL ANY BETTER? I'm not so keen on the type of properties there, as there not as nice as they are it Spain. I just don't know...Joe


Spain is not just Albox, Huercal Overa area! There is so much more to Spain than that.

So many people when looking to relocate to Spain think only of the costas or one particular area that they may have heard about from friends, or seen on some unrealistic television programme and do not carry out any real research into that or any other area. Your job now, as it should have been at the beginning is to start with a proper look at yourself and list what you are looking for. Then start looking at *all* of Spain to see where ticks your boxes.

A few years ago, SWMBO's padrinos were staying with us and their son came to collect them and his first words were "Who, on earth, would want to come and live in Jaén?" Fast forward to 31st August this year and we had some old friends from UK stay with us for a few days before moving northwards this morning to where the wife was born (Galicia). This morning, just before leaving, the comments were "Wow, we never knew just how much this area had to offer. Can we come back some time in the future?" As it happens, they have an apartment just south of Barcelona which they are now thinking of selling and moving their Spanish holiday centre to another part, maybe nearer Galicia or nearer here.


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## Rabbitcat

If you are the sort of person who will judge and decide upon the entire immediate future of their life- based on ONE TV PROGRAMME- then yes you should definitely stay where you are and possibly seek some emotional help.


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## Isobella

Rabbitcat said:


> If you are the sort of person who will judge and decide upon the entire immediate future of their life- based on ONE TV PROGRAMME- then yes you should definitely stay where you are and possibly seek some emotional help.


The thing is many moved as a result of watching a Place in the Sun, works both ways


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## Rabbitcat

Isobella said:


> The thing is many moved as a result of watching a Place in the Sun, works both ways


Exactly, yet again highlights that research research research is required- and on the ground research not just flicking through internet sites.


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## baldilocks

Isobella said:


> The thing is many moved as a result of watching a Place in the Sun, works both ways


But how many were happy with their move? did it work out the way it was on the TV? how many are still here? how many realised that all was not a bed of roses and later tried to move (successfully, or not) to a different area/place/country or back home? Why are there not more "A Place in the Sun - revisited" programmes?


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## Rabbitcat

We'll I don't want to be too hard on A Place in the Sun- let's be honest 90% of the punters on it end their freebie holiday with the well worn line-" we have decided to go back home and think it over" etc- friggin tyre kickers


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## Lynn R

baldilocks said:


> But how many were happy with their move? did it work out the way it was on the TV? how many are still here? how many realised that all was not a bed of roses and later tried to move (successfully, or not) to a different area/place/country or back home? Why are there not more "A Place in the Sun - revisited" programmes?


Would you really want to be on a TV programme of that kind? I certainly wouldn't, even though I'm happy living here, it would be my worst nightmare.

Imagine, you'd have all of us sitting on our sofas saying stuff like "well, whatever made them want to move to a place like that", or "you'd think they could afford a decent haircut, wouldn't you?".


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## Rabbitcat

Yeah but getting to meet Amanda Lamb, coooooo!! Well worth it!!!


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## 90199

T.V. programs like the one mentioned are a load of tishpoo and twaddle, designed to pacify the frozen habitants of the northern countries and give them a sense being better off than those who have emigrated to warmer climes.

Paint Spain bad enough, Huddersfield and Grantham will seem like paradise, I shall not mention Manchester and Oldham


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## Isobella

Hepa said:


> T.V. programs like the one mentioned are a load of tishpoo and twaddle, designed to pacify the frozen habitants of the northern countries and give them a sense being better off than those who have emigrated to warmer climes.
> 
> Paint Spain bad enough, Huddersfield and Grantham will seem like paradise, I shall not mention Manchester and Oldham


But the old Place in the Sun type prorammes didn't paint Spain bad, they still don't. Many examples of presenters giving over realistic rental prospects or coming out with stuff like I have spoken to the Mayor and you could easily add another bedroom.....


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## peedee

A TV program that says' Yeah, it's OK, no particular problems other than what you'd expect, is probably not going to be commissioned. 
It is after all an entertainment program not a news report - bit like the Daily Mail


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## jojo

Rabbitcat said:


> Yeah but getting to meet Amanda Lamb, coooooo!! Well worth it!!!


She's really nice. Lol

Jo xxxx

Sent from my D5803 using Expat Forum


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## amespana

In the original post I think you,ll find the op has never visited Spain,in fact his only time abroad was a holiday in Jersey.


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## Gazeebo

We have people we know who have sold or trying to sell their property in Spain for various reasons, but we are still going out for 6 months to see if WE like it. Yes, we take on board what we are told, read about in newpapers and watch on television, but we are all different and no one will put us off trying.

As for Place in the Sun, I do watch it, but I wish they would put the year it was filmed at the begining as they have been playing 2008 and I don't realise until the end. Ooh and my other gripe about the programme is that I wish they listened to what the clients actually want/need, not what they think would make a good programme, because it doesn't work........and, as for Amanda Lamb and that other one who is on, Sara Damergi, I wish they would get something a bit more substantial to contain their assets, as I am fed with looking at them (it could be a tad bit of jealousy though). I wonder now why I do watch it!:eyebrows:


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## baldilocks

Amanda Lamb or Mutton dressed up as...


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## thrax

spicer187171 said:


> After reading the post today 3rd sept *Costa Del Sol, Last Brits Standing*, my dream have shattered into pieces. My dream was to move to Albox, Huercal Overa area, to live out my retirement, but now I'll think again. I have so many negative thoughts that I feel that moving to Spain has died of death. I'm going to find, I hard to watch the programme on BBC IPlayer. When you hear of properties being demolished, the crime, and how careful you have to be, and the people who have moved back, the unemployment, Now I just don't know anymore. IS PORTUGAL ANY BETTER? I'm not so keen on the type of properties there, as there not as nice as they are it Spain. I just don't know...Joe


I am going to assume you are taking the p***. You can't seriously make a decision based upon a clearly appalling program which has absolutely no basis in the truth whatsoever. A program made to feed the DM readers desire to hate anything that is nothing to do with them. Later in this thread someone states that you have never visited Spain. Is that true? All your dreams shattered because of a useless program has destroyed your dreams of a place you've never visited? Oh dear...


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## spicer187171

Yes Lyn, you are right. Some of these TV programmes are just like the newspapers. and should have an open mind. I think I need to go out there for about a month, to get the feel of the place. How easy was it for you to settle? Did you ever think "Oh what have I done" and when is the best time to come, summer or winter. Regards Joe


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## Stevesolar

Hi,
As previously mentioned, the makers of these sort of TV programmes have an "agenda" before they even start filming.
They then try to find the stories to fit their agenda to make the program they want.
If their agenda is to make a place look bad - then this is how it will look.
Likewise the positive programmes.
You simply need to do your own research and ensure your move meets the requirements of your agenda - not the program makers!
Best of luck
Steve


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## spicer187171

Your so right Boldilocks, You have good words of wisdom, thank you. Well I have looked on Rightmove at so many properties, and I love the Villa's. What wouldn't be able to buy anything like this in England. I 'd like somewhere just outside of a town, but walking distance, without taking the car,. I would not want an area with lot of ex-pats area, and to like in a place like Camposol, that would be like living on an estate in South London. My problem is I have made some bad moves in the past. Thank you Boldilocks, you have sound advice. Regards


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## Gazeebo

spicer187171 said:


> Yes Lyn, you are right. Some of these TV programmes are just like the newspapers. and should have an open mind. I think I need to go out there for about a month, to get the feel of the place. How easy was it for you to settle? Did you ever think "Oh what have I done" and when is the best time to come, summer or winter. Regards Joe


Very sensible to try before you make a firm decision. I am sure that looing back on life most of can say "Oh what I have done", but if you don't try you will be saying "I wish I had...". So, plan carefully, but do it. AND good luck. :fingerscrossed:


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## sdj101

We watched that programme a couple of months ago. We had already done loads of research into buying/renting in Spain. That was one of the worst TV programmes I have seen and I could have been put off completely but knew from our research and visits that the programme was just painting the bleakest picture. Some of the types of people would have put me off for a start. If the OP was seriously thinking of moving to Spain without doing all sorts of research, visits, etc.etc. then he seriously needed that wake up call to get out to Spain and look around before coming here to say his dream is shattered…..that is just ridiculous.


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## Lynn R

spicer187171 said:


> Yes Lyn, you are right. Some of these TV programmes are just like the newspapers. and should have an open mind. I think I need to go out there for about a month, to get the feel of the place. How easy was it for you to settle? Did you ever think "Oh what have I done" and when is the best time to come, summer or winter. Regards Joe


Well, I found it very easy to settle here where I live, but I had spent many holidays not too far away in Nerja so I knew what the general area was like and what the climate is like in winter as well as in summer. If you visit in winter, I suppose you are likely to be seeing anywhere at its worst, so theoretically if you like it then you are more likely to enjoy it all year round. Then again, some resort areas are so busy in the summer that it's less enjoyable for the permanent residents to live there, and some people find the extreme heat in the summer hard to cope with. I suppose spending a period of time here during both summer and winter would be best, if you can manage it.

The only time I ever had that "oh what have I done" feeling was when my father had a stroke just a month after we'd moved here and I spent the next six months flying backwards and forwards to be with him in hospital then coming back here for a couple of weeks at a time. However, when I actually thought about it I was able to spend more time with him before he died because I'd given up my job to move to Spain, and had I still been in the UK, working full time and living 40 miles away from him, I could not have been at the hospital every day for weeks at a time. So it would have been a very bad time no matter where I was living.


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## baldilocks

Ignore all the TV programmes that say "you should move to XXXXXX because..." because if everybody follows that advice, you are going to find that XXXXXX is full of Brits who were swayed into moving by those programmes.

You need to sit down quietly (and sober) and make lists. Identify just why you want to move (no silly reasons such as the bar on the corner has some serving girl whom you really fancy). Make note of what you don't like about where you are so that you avoid that type of place in Spain, France, Bulgaria or wherever (note that "too many foreigners" doesn't count - there are millions of them in Spain, mostly Spanish but a high proportion from a multitude of other countries, likewise "too many immigrants" doesn't count either - you will be one, yourself.) Most important is to make a list of what you are looking for in your new location and be realistic "Sun, Sea, Sand and Sangría" can throw up places that might be fun (or not) in summer can be lonely and deserted when winter comes and half or more of the bars are closed and the tourists are snucked down in their centrally heated homes back home.

On the subject of weather (climate) there are plenty of statistical website that will give you a good indication of what it might be like in your potential locations. Note that temperature varies with altitude as well as latitude - if you don't like extreme heat or extreme cold, avoid river valleys where the temperatures can be 10°colder or hotter than in the surrounding countryside. For example, where I live (723m) the temperature can be 7° cooler in summer and 5° warmer in winter than Andujar (40km to the north and at 211m) and 10-12° different from Córdoba 110 km NW but only 106m AMSL.

Remember it is better to be moving to... rather than moving away from...


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## caromac

Just to say we featured in A Place in the Sun as advisers to some potential buyers who wanted to run a B and B which we had already done. It was great fun, Jasmine Harman was charming and the locals of 'our' little village didn't know what had hit them.

It is not a reliable source on which to make huge decisions though.lane:


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## Leper

Show me somebody who believes everything he sees on television and I'll show you a fool.

Living long term in other than your home country needs some investigation, thought, want etc. Anybody thinking of making the long term (i.e. for more than six weeks) move to Spain has to do some homework i.e. where to live, what to do, retreat plan etc. 

I have yet to see a television programme about spending long term in Spain that is not rubbish. Avoid vested interests too unless you want to ingest more untruths.

The process of spending more than six weeks in Spain (or forever in Spain) is relatively simple. If you are retiring to Spain rent for a few weeks in any place you think you would be happy. Stick a pin on a map if you must, but six weeks renting will probably the best few bob you every spent. Use the time for recce, experience, joy, making friends and you will soon know whether Spain is for you or not. 

Believe what you hear or see on television and you get what you deserve.


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## stefig

Leper said:


> Show me somebody who believes everything he sees on television and I'll show you a fool.
> 
> Living long term in other than your home country needs some investigation, thought, want etc. Anybody thinking of making the long term (i.e. for more than six weeks) move to Spain has to do some homework i.e. where to live, what to do, retreat plan etc.
> 
> I have yet to see a television programme about spending long term in Spain that is not rubbish. Avoid vested interests too unless you want to ingest more untruths.
> 
> The process of spending more than six weeks in Spain (or forever in Spain) is relatively simple. If you are retiring to Spain rent for a few weeks in any place you think you would be happy. Stick a pin on a map if you must, but six weeks renting will probably the best few bob you every spent. Use the time for recce, experience, joy, making friends and you will soon know whether Spain is for you or not.
> 
> Believe what you hear or see on television and you get what you deserve.


Indeed.

I think Spain more than anywhere else suffers from people moving there on a whim because it's hot and offers a 'good lifestyle'. No thought as to how they'll support themselves, how they'll get by day-to-day with no Spanish, etc. Giving up on a 'lifelong' dream to move to Spain because of one television programme is rather mind-boggling to me. Anyone who wasn't aware of the issues covered in the programme obviously hadn't thought it through very well.


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## musie

Come to Mallorca it's paradise x


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## Lynn R

musie said:


> Come to Mallorca it's paradise x


Blimey, you've turned your opinion around - what happened?

"Be prepared to be up to your eyes in needless paper work,double standards of what you need ,inept electrical companies when registering your property ,ridiculous humidity get a dehumidifier, oh and the Spanish don't do anything quietly ,speaking ,driving scooters,watching football,close apartment doors if you can buy a house in the middle of nowhere you maybe okay"


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## The Quilt

spicer187171 said:


> After reading the post today 3rd sept *Costa Del Sol, Last Brits Standing*, my dream have shattered into pieces. My dream was to move to Albox, Huercal Overa area, to live out my retirement, but now I'll think again. I have so many negative thoughts that I feel that moving to Spain has died of death. I'm going to find, I hard to watch the programme on BBC IPlayer. When you hear of properties being demolished, the crime, and how careful you have to be, and the people who have moved back, the unemployment, Now I just don't know anymore. IS PORTUGAL ANY BETTER? I'm not so keen on the type of properties there, as there not as nice as they are it Spain. I just don't know...Joe


My son knows some of the people who took part in this programme and is reliably informed that they deliberately looked for hard luck and negative stories. They also spent half a day filming one of his friends out and about and enjoyong her horse riding,she loves living here but her story wasn't included in the final cut. 

Saw another one being filmed recently about a guy I know opening a bar,can't wait to see how that goes if it ever goes to air. The bar is called Deja Vu.I will keep you all posted on developments. The thing to remember though,I believe,is that,these programmes are mostly a load of b******s.


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## Rabbitcat

I find it bemusing that anyone takes these type of shows seriously .


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## Stevesolar

The Quilt said:


> Saw another one being filmed recently about a guy I know opening a bar,can't wait to see how that goes if it ever goes to air. The bar is called Deja Vu.


I am sure I saw that once before!


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## mrypg9

spicer187171 said:


> I would not want an area with lot of ex-pats area, and to like in a place like Camposol, that would be like living on an estate in South London. My problem is I have made some bad moves in the past.


Rather insulting to those who live happily in Camposol, don't you think? Not a place I'd choose to live but there are posters on this site who are content with ther lives there.
You say you don't want 'an ex-pats area' - but you mentioned Albox as your destination of choice in your first post....
If I were you I'd think of somewhere like the Isle of Wight or the Lake District...or the Yorkshire Dales. 
Might tick all your boxes.


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## Isobella

Deja vu sounds a very appropriate name for a bar on the CDS


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## Rabbitcat

Not getting into the Camposol debate BUT as I posted previously I watched a Place in the Sun episode a while back featuring that area and the houses were gorgeous.

My pet hate is when people say places are/aren't " real Spain"

Spain includes every scenario from tacky high rises to remote mountain villages- ALL are " real Spain"- glad I got that rant off my chest


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## mrypg9

Isobella said:


> Deja vu sounds a very appropriate name for a bar on the CDS


How about 'Deja (trop) bu'?


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## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> Not getting into the Camposol debate BUT as I posted previously I watched a Place in the Sun episode a while back featuring that area and the houses were gorgeous.
> 
> My pet hate is when people say places are/aren't " real Spain"
> 
> Spain includes every scenario from tacky high rises to remote mountain villages- ALL are " real Spain"- glad I got that rant off my chest


I've been ranting about that for ages.
Imagine someone saying Blackpool or Eastbourne weren't the 'real' UK..as opposed to Corfe Castle, Lavenham or Stow-on-the -Wold.
If people have an ideal view of what constitutes the 'real Spain;' they are probably inexperienced travellers or don't know much about Spain ...or both.


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## jojo

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/873186-british-towns.html 

Jo xxx


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## Elyles

The acceptance and willingness to immerse oneself in a different culture is a must. Anyone can find an expat community to live in but taking leave of a country you may have been born in to seek adventure takes cajones. In the US we saw no programs glamorizing life here. As a matter of fact, most Americans know very little of Spain. We thoroughly researched where we wanted to retire, traveled here a few times then picked an area. Three years later and part of a non expat Spanish community, I doubt we will ever return to live in the US. This continues to be an adventure.


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## Alcalaina

Elyles said:


> The acceptance and willingness to immerse oneself in a different culture is a must. Anyone can find an expat community to live in but taking leave of a country you may have been born in to seek adventure takes cajones. In the US we saw no programs glamorizing life here. As a matter of fact, most Americans know very little of Spain. We thoroughly researched where we wanted to retire, traveled here a few times then picked an area. Three years later and part of a non expat Spanish community, I doubt we will ever return to live in the US. This continues to be an adventure.


Love your post but you really mustn't confuse your _cajones_ with your _*******_. One is a percussion instrument found in flamenco; the other ... isn't.


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## mrypg9

Elyles said:


> The acceptance and willingness to immerse oneself in a different culture is a must. Anyone can find an expat community to live in but taking leave of a country you may have been born in to seek adventure takes cajones. In the US we saw no programs glamorizing life here. As a matter of fact, most Americans know very little of Spain. We thoroughly researched where we wanted to retire, traveled here a few times then picked an area. Three years later and part of a non expat Spanish community, I doubt we will ever return to live in the US. This continues to be an adventure.


Brits can move easily within Europe so it really isn't such a big deal to settle in another European country.
Of course there are cultural differences but with the spread of mass media and the reach of global companies they are becoming less sharply distinctive.
That isn't to say they don't exist but perhaps they are expressed more in differences of attitude and 'mind set' than what people eat, wear, or watch and listen to.
Our intention was to retire to a property we owned in a small town of 4000 people in a rural part of the Ottawa Valley, Canada. The cultural differences in this English- speaking community were sharply distinct from what I experienced anywhere in Western Europe. Even more so were the differences in French - speaking Quebec, where I have close family.
People are indeed shaped by history and environment but we all share certain dispositions and habits. One example is the central importance of family, in spite of all attempts by feminists and some 'progressives' to depict as a reactionary stource of 'patriarchal oppression'.


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## Alcalaina

Alcalaina said:


> Love your post but you really mustn't confuse your _cajones_ with your _*******_. One is a percussion instrument found in flamenco; the other ... isn't.


Uh-oh, the sweary filter got me! Substitute an O for the A.


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Uh-oh, the sweary filter got me! Substitute an O for the A.


There is a house in our village owned by an English family named Jones. They have an elaborate tiled nameplate on their gatepost.
I have a childish urge to take a felt tip or spray can and add 'C O ' in front of their name.


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## Maureen47

I love watching 'A Place in the Sun' to see all the different types of properties out there and how much they cost. Although this does depend on when it was filmed and the exchange rate at the time.

Our house buying in Spain was a real journey , we knew the area we wanted , we have family there and wanted to be close by but we are so glad that we didn't buy some of the initial properties we looked at. The remote hunting lodge was beautiful but in reality would not have suited us as a permanent home , my SIL at the time had great reservations about it but as we were so keen she kept quiet in the hope we would realise ourselves the issues the house would bring in day to day living.

We were lucky to be able to house sit a few times for my SIL and this gave us a true experience of living in Spain on our own.

The house we ended up with is perfect for us , it is on its own but a 5-7 min walk from the village, we have mains power and water, a pool and wifi. The hunting lodge on the other hand required solar power , had a water deposito and a sketchy phone signal.

We have enough land to do the things we wish but not so much as it becomes an issue to manage.

It took almost 2 years to find the right property and we were very lucky that we exchanged when the rate was 1.44 and the prices were almost half of normal otherwise we wouldn't have been able to afford the lovely property we have ended up with.

There are things I would like to change about the property but there is always a compromise.

These TV show need to be taken for what they are , entertainment and not to focus on them too much when making live changing decisions.

Our approach is , we are making this move , if it doesn't work , we can change it but there are no plans in that direction at present.


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## Elyles

Cajones *******-- see, learn something new every day.


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## mrypg9

I think the biggest cultural difference I have come across is between Europeans and Americans...all Europeans and all Americans.
Yes, it's a huge generalisation but I think it holds more than a grain of truth.
What I find interesting is the fact that some Brits deny we no longer have a specific British or English culture yet set it in contrast to what they see as the distinctly different culture of Spain.


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## Alcalaina

Elyles said:


> Cajones *******-- see, learn something new every day.


Learn how to_ tocar tu cajón_:


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## Gazeebo

'Brits' can't always move around Europe with ease - as we have been finding out with our move. Certainly, other Europeans (at least those that have attended the college in which I worked - now retired ) coming to Britain get housing if they have children of a certain age, free dental care, free GP care, free hospital care, free language courses, stay in the country for as long as they like without commitment etc., etc. Myself and my OH have not been able to find any of these offered to us, which can make it very awkward for Brits to move around Europe with ease. Now, don't get me wrong, we have done our research and I am of the old school, pay in and get out - unfortunately - some people don't, and take advantage of the good nature of others paying taxes in Britain.
We have researched Spain and although the country does not offer the same as Britain - that is our choice and we will take responsibility for looking after ourselves - unlike other Europeans coming to Britain.


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## mrypg9

Gazeebo said:


> 'Brits' can't always move around Europe with ease - as we have been finding out with our move. Certainly, other Europeans (at least those that have attended the college in which I worked - now retired ) coming to Britain get housing if they have children of a certain age, free dental care, free GP care, free hospital care, free language courses, stay in the country for as long as they like without commitment etc., etc. Myself and my OH have not been able to find any of these offered to us, which can make it very awkward for Brits to move around Europe with ease. Now, don't get me wrong, we have done our research and I am of the old school, pay in and get out - unfortunately - some people don't, and take advantage of the good nature of others paying taxes in Britain.
> We have researched Spain and although the country does not offer the same as Britain - that is our choice and we will take responsibility for looking after ourselves - unlike other Europeans coming to Britain.


Are you quite sure that all members of the EU are automatically entitled to the things you list? I can state that it is untrue that 'free housing and free dental care' are available to all incomers to the UK. I don't know about 'free language courses' but would you prefer immigrants from any country who are sick or have an injury or accident to be denied health care if they don't have the means to pay for it? I live in Andalucia where no-one is turned away from a doctor or hospital, whoever they are and wherever they come from. That is surely basic human decency.
It can't be that difficult for we Brits to move around , you know....over a million of us work in other European countries and elsewhere in the world.
And did you really expect 'free housing' to be offered to you in Spain?


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## mrypg9

Incidentally, I'm not in favour of unrestricted open door immigration but I like to base my reservations on fact and not sensationalist Daily Mail stories.
As for the 'good nature' of 'others' paying taxes....good nature doesn't come into it if you are subject to PAYE. You pay up, with ill or good nature.
Unless of course you are one of the non-doms or super wealthy tax evaders who cost the country far more than immigration as the vast majority of immigrants are hardworking and pay their taxes, contributing thereby to the costs of their benefits, like anyone else resident in the UK.


----------



## Gazeebo

mrypg9 said:


> Are you quite sure that all members of the EU are automatically entitled to the things you list? I can state that it is untrue that 'free housing and free dental care' are available to all incomers to the UK. I don't know about 'free language courses' but would you prefer immigrants from any country who are sick or have an injury or accident to be denied health care if they don't have the means to pay for it? I live in Andalucia where no-one is turned away from a doctor or hospital, whoever they are and wherever they come from. That is surely basic human decency.
> It can't be that difficult for we Brits to move around , you know....over a million of us work in other European countries and elsewhere in the world.
> And did you really expect 'free housing' to be offered to you in Spain?


Where in my post did it say I was expecting free housing!
It's good to hear that we will get free health service - we can now cancel our insurance when we get to Spain in the knowledge that we will be treated regardless.
Yes, people coming to Britain do get free dental and health care without ever having paid into the tax system. Several of our students have received their full time language course free as it is below a Level 2 course.
Just a shame that all European countries don't offer the same facilities and make it a level playing field.  But then I suppose there pluses and minuses in all countries.
We are fortunate in that, for most of our lives, we have been able to work and are now able to fund ourselves.


----------



## Lynn R

Gazeebo said:


> Where in my post did it say I was expecting free housing!
> It's good to hear that we will get free health service - we can now cancel our insurance when we get to Spain in the knowledge that we will be treated regardless.
> Yes, people coming to Britain do get free dental and health care without ever having paid into the tax system. Several of our students have received their full time language course free as it is below a Level 2 course.
> Just a shame that all European countries don't offer the same facilities and make it a level playing field.  But then I suppose there pluses and minuses in all countries.
> We are fortunate in that, for most of our lives, we have been able to work and are now able to fund ourselves.


I believe they're not as plentiful as they used to be, pre crisis, but free Spanish classes for immigrants are still available in some places. My local Adult Education Centre runs them.

Nobody in Spain, apart from children I believe, gets free dental care as it's a purely private service.

There is no Housing Benefit available to immigrants here because it doesn't exist for Spanish people either.

The UK is, I think, the only country in Europe where people are entitled to free healthcare from day one and free dental care (if they're on benefits or a pensioner and if they can find an NHS dentist to register with). There are now plans to prevent new entrants to the country from claiming benefits, or so I have read, and the European Courts have recently made a ruling in a case relating to Germany which supported the idea that a country can refuse to pay benefits to migrants if they don't have a job to come to. It is the UK, really, which is out of step with the whole of the rest of Europe and not Spain which is the exception.


----------



## Gazeebo

Lynn R said:


> I believe they're not as plentiful as they used to be, pre crisis, but free Spanish classes for immigrants are still available in some places. My local Adult Education Centre runs them.
> 
> Nobody in Spain, apart from children I believe, gets free dental care as it's a purely private service.
> 
> There is no Housing Benefit available to immigrants here because it doesn't exist for Spanish people either.
> 
> The UK is, I think, the only country in Europe where people are entitled to free healthcare from day one and free dental care (if they're on benefits or a pensioner and if they can find an NHS dentist to register with). There are now plans to prevent new entrants to the country from claiming benefits, or so I have read, and the European Courts have recently made a ruling in a case relating to Germany which supported the idea that a country can refuse to pay benefits to migrants if they don't have a job to come to. It is the UK, really, which is out of step with the whole of the rest of Europe and not Spain which is the exception.


I agree, Britain is the one out of step with the rest of Europe. Unfortunately, it is taking far too long for politicians to wake up and realise the country cannot continue as it has been. And yes, there are plans afoot to stop new entrants claiming benefits, but I dread to think how long this will take to put into place, if ever.


----------



## Isobella

I personally saw a sick German child turned away from the Doctors in San Pedro because they didn't have the health card. They were told to go to A&E but even there word is that the credit card machine is ready for anyone without a card.


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## samthemainman

Isobella said:


> I personally saw a sick German child turned away from the Doctors in San Pedro because they didn't have the health card. They were told to go to A&E but even there word is that the credit card machine is ready for anyone without a card.


Conversely I've also seen in Valencia doctors surgeries knowingly accept UK issued EHIC cards when they know the people are resident (not myself, mind).

While I'm 100% loving living in Spain, I love the UK NHS in that residency is all that is needed to qualify rather than 'what you put in'. People get what they need. The Daily Mail and Express pint a picture that the NHS is failing because of the influx of health tourism - when factually it's struggling because of woeful underinvestment. If we pay per capita less than any of the western world (except maybe for New Zealand) - what do Brits expect! I'm not saying the NHS isn't abused - but no more than other systems. I know one lady who had paid just two months worth of SS contributions in Spain to then need two years of expensive cancer treatment - which is fine in my book. Once we get into an American right wing mentality of 'your healthcare cover is your responsibility' we're in a bad place.


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## mrypg9

samthemainman said:


> Conversely I've also seen in Valencia doctors surgeries knowingly accept UK issued EHIC cards when they know the people are resident (not myself, mind).
> 
> While I'm 100% loving living in Spain, I love the UK NHS in that residency is all that is needed to qualify rather than 'what you put in'. People get what they need. The Daily Mail and Express pint a picture that the NHS is failing because of the influx of health tourism - when factually it's struggling because of woeful underinvestment. If we pay per capita less than any of the western world (except maybe for New Zealand) - what do Brits expect! I'm not saying the NHS isn't abused - but no more than other systems. I know one lady who had paid just two months worth of SS contributions in Spain to then need two years of expensive cancer treatment - which is fine in my book. Once we get into an American right wing mentality of 'your healthcare cover is your responsibility' we're in a bad place.


I agree with you 100%. Resenting the fact that someone somewhere might be getting something they 'aren't entitled to' is a rather unappealing British trait.
As for free dental care...it's a myth. You might get it if you go to A&E but even if you can find an NHS dentist there are minimum charges.


----------



## stefig

mrypg9 said:


> I agree with you 100%. Resenting the fact that someone somewhere might be getting something they 'aren't entitled to' is a rather unappealing British trait.
> As for free dental care...it's a myth. You might get it if you go to A&E but even if you can find an NHS dentist there are minimum charges.


Beats me how anyone even manages to find an NHS dentist. I pay an absolute fortune every time I go!


----------



## Helenameva

Isobella said:


> I personally saw a sick German child turned away from the Doctors in San Pedro because they didn't have the health card. They were told to go to A&E but even there word is that the credit card machine is ready for anyone without a card.


You make it sound like a money making exercise! I can't speak for all hospitals in all areas but I had to go to an A&E after a nasty fall not long after coming here, before I had registered. I was seen by a doctor within 30 minutes, had X-rays and stitches, and no bill to pay straightaway, it was sent in the post with a note to explain if my registration was all sorted within the next few weeks (it was) I just had to send them my Healthcard info and it would be sorted. The bill was for something like 200€ so hardly extortionate given the speed, quality and completeness of the service. My daughter, who I was carrying at the time, was seen even quicker, and for free.


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## mrypg9

A friend came to stay with wife and teenage daughter and the daughter developed stomach pains. At ten a.m. I drove them to our village consultorio, five minutes later the doctor examined her and said she should go to A&E. Twenty minutes drive to hospital, ten minites wait then five minutes having copies of passport, UK address taken - no request for EHIC.
By two p.m. she had been examined, had various tests, was declared OK to go home, was given a prescription, got pills from the farmacia and was home in bed feeling sorry for herself.
That, imo,is how a civilised society deals with anyone in need of treatment, whether they have paid their taxes or not, whether citizen or imigrant, resident or tourist.


----------



## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> A friend came to stay with wife and teenage daughter and the daughter developed stomach pains. At ten a.m. I drove them to our village consultorio, five minutes later the doctor examined her and said she should go to A&E. Twenty minutes drive to hospital, ten minites wait then five minutes having copies of passport, UK address taken - no request for EHIC.
> By two p.m. she had been examined, had various tests, was declared OK to go home, was given a prescription, got pills from the farmacia and was home in bed feeling sorry for herself.
> That, imo,is how a civilised society deals with anyone in need of treatment, whether they have paid their taxes or not, whether citizen or imigrant, resident or tourist.


We had the opposite happen, so maybe it depends on the area?? We lived in Spain and were covered under the S1 (my husband worked and paid NI in the UK)

Our son tore his ligament, we went to the hospital who wanted to charge us. We couldn't find our sons social security number and the EHIC card wasn't valid for residents. We sorted it in the end with the doctors surgery, but they wouldnt treat him until we did. Or unless I gave them my credit card - he was 14 at the time

Jo xxx


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## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> As for free dental care...it's a myth. You might get it if you go to A&E but even if you can find an NHS dentist there are minimum charges.


Those who are either under 18, pregnant or have had a baby during the 12 month period before treatment or are in receipt of certain benefits don't pay the minimum charges, so in those circumstances it is free - although the greatest problem people are likely to experience is finding an NHS dentist to register with.


Help with dental charges - Health costs - NHS Choices


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> We had the opposite happen, so maybe it depends on the area?? We lived in Spain and were covered under the S1 (my husband worked and paid NI in the UK)
> 
> Our son tore his ligament, we went to the hospital who wanted to charge us. We couldn't find our sons social security number and the EHIC card wasn't valid for residents. We sorted it in the end with the doctors surgery, but they wouldnt treat him until we did. Or unless I gave them my credit card - he was 14 at the time
> 
> Jo xxx


I think it must do. The receptionist at the local surgery only asked for the girl's passport.
We took her to the Costa Del Sol Hospital, Marbella.


----------



## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> Those who are either under 18, pregnant or have had a baby during the 12 month period before treatment or are in receipt of certain benefits don't pay the minimum charges, so in those circumstances it is free - although the greatest problem people are likely to experience is finding an NHS dentist to register with.
> 
> 
> Help with dental charges - Health costs - NHS Choices


As you say, IF you can find an NHS dentist...but in the town I last lived in in the UK there was one and his list was full.
So you had no choice but to pay. Our dentist saw the writing on the wall years before the changes and introduced an insurance scheme for private care. Sandra and I were the first to sign up, I think for £50 a month for both of us. I had crowns, pins, bridges at a lower cost than on the NHS, even taking into account the annual fee, as I paid only for lab costs.
The reality is that for most people free dental care is a myth. Even if you are entitled it covers only the most basic work, usually extractions rather than root canals, for example.
It is a disgrace what has happened to NHS dental care. Sandra moved a motion at Labour Party Conference on that issue over twenty years ago..


----------



## Lynn R

jojo said:


> We had the opposite happen, so maybe it depends on the area?? We lived in Spain and were covered under the S1 (my husband worked and paid NI in the UK)
> 
> Our son tore his ligament, we went to the hospital who wanted to charge us. We couldn't find our sons social security number and the EHIC card wasn't valid for residents. We sorted it in the end with the doctors surgery, but they wouldnt treat him until we did. Or unless I gave them my credit card - he was 14 at the time
> 
> Jo xxx


It obviously does vary. The daughter of friends of ours broke her arm on the first day of their holiday once and they were out at the park without having their passports, EHIC cards or travel insurance policy with them. The mother took the child straight to the hospital by taxi whilst we returned to their house to collect the documents and take them to the hospital. When we got there she had already been through triage and seen a doctor and was waiting to be x-rayed, and I was able to hand over all the documents and get her registered at reception.

Someone else we know had an accident at home, was admitted to the same local hospital for several days and had follow-up appointments after she was discharged. She wasn't a resident and was using her travel insurance to cover her treatment. There was some delay in the insurance company liaising with the hospital (a state hospital not private) which wasn't resolved for several weeks but they carried on treating her anyway.

People really should carry their ID documents and health entitlement cards (whether that's an EHIC because they're tourists or a tarjeta sanitaria if they have one) at all times. I saw a TV holiday programme once where tourists were being stopped on the promenade of a busy Spanish resort and asked if they had their EHIC cards with them, and about 95% didn't. They are no good in a hotel room if you have an accident or collapse in the street. I always have my passport and tarjeta sanitaria with me. If a Spanish person went to hospital they'd have to show their DNI and tarjeta sanitaria, so why shouldn't I expect to?


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## Pesky Wesky

jojo said:


> We had the opposite happen, so maybe it depends on the area?? We lived in Spain and were covered under the S1 (my husband worked and paid NI in the UK)
> 
> Our son tore his ligament, we went to the hospital who wanted to charge us. We couldn't find our sons social security number and the EHIC card wasn't valid for residents. We sorted it in the end with the doctors surgery, but they wouldnt treat him until we did. Or unless I gave them my credit card - he was 14 at the time
> 
> Jo xxx


That was a while ago though and since then the treatment of people not paying into the Spanish system has changed quite a few times. As the election gets nearer I think there are regional and maybe national authorities that are revising the way immigrants without papers are treated for example.


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## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> It obviously does vary. The daughter of friends of ours broke her arm on the first day of their holiday once and they were out at the park without having their passports, EHIC cards or travel insurance policy with them. The mother took the child straight to the hospital by taxi whilst we returned to their house to collect the documents and take them to the hospital. When we got there she had already been through triage and seen a doctor and was waiting to be x-rayed, and I was able to hand over all the documents and get her registered at reception.
> 
> Someone else we know had an accident at home, was admitted to the same local hospital for several days and had follow-up appointments after she was discharged. She wasn't a resident and was using her travel insurance to cover her treatment. There was some delay in the insurance company liaising with the hospital (a state hospital not private) which wasn't resolved for several weeks but they carried on treating her anyway.
> 
> People really should carry their ID documents and health entitlement cards (whether that's an EHIC because they're tourists or a tarjeta sanitaria if they have one) at all times. I saw a TV holiday programme once where tourists were being stopped on the promenade of a busy Spanish resort and asked if they had their EHIC cards with them, and about 95% didn't. They are no good in a hotel room if you have an accident or collapse in the street. I always have my passport and tarjeta sanitaria with me. If a Spanish person went to hospital they'd have to show their DNI and tarjeta sanitaria, so why shouldn't I expect to?


I have never carried my passport with me.
I've only ever been stopped once and that was in the car and I had my driving licence.
I do however carry my sensibly sized Seg Soc card on me at all times


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> I have never carried my passport with me.
> I've only ever been stopped once and that was in the car and I had my driving licence.
> I do however carry my sensibly sized Seg Soc card on me at all times


I carry Spanish driving licence and health card from the JdA but never passport.


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## Isobella

jojo said:


> We had the opposite happen, so maybe it depends on the area?? We lived in Spain and were covered under the S1 (my husband worked and paid NI in the UK)
> 
> Our son tore his ligament, we went to the hospital who wanted to charge us. We couldn't find our sons social security number and the EHIC card wasn't valid for residents. We sorted it in the end with the doctors surgery, but they wouldnt treat him until we did. Or unless I gave them my credit card - he was 14 at the time
> 
> Jo xxx


That is what I saw happen at the CDS hospital. our German neighbour had to pay too when he broke his leg and had left his card at home although he said he managed to claim back the cost in Germany.


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## stefig

mrypg9 said:


> I carry Spanish driving licence and health card from the JdA but never passport.


I was just thinking the other day about what I'm going to do in Spain, as I don't have a driving licence and don't like carrying my passport around in case it gets lost/stolen. In the past, I've just shoved a photocopy of it in my bag, and nobody ever asked for it, but that's not really acceptable to the police, is it?


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## mrypg9

stefig said:


> I was just thinking the other day about what I'm going to do in Spain, as I don't have a driving licence and don't like carrying my passport around in case it gets lost/stolen. In the past, I've just shoved a photocopy of it in my bag, and nobody ever asked for it, but that's not really acceptable to the police, is it?


When I got stopped by the GC for driving without lights (I had just driven out of a brightly lit supermarket carpark along a brightly lit street and just forgot) I was asked for driving licence and no other form of ID.
In my seven years here I have managed not to attract the attention of the police. I must look like a respectable old dear as I have often been the only driver to pass a police check with a wave and a 'pasa senora' whilst every other driver has been stopped and questioned.


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## jimenato

stefig said:


> I was just thinking the other day about what I'm going to do in Spain, as I don't have a driving licence and don't like carrying my passport around in case it gets lost/stolen. In the past, I've just shoved a photocopy of it in my bag, and nobody ever asked for it, but that's not really acceptable to the police, is it?


If you photocopy the important page of your passport reduced to credit card size, cut it out and laminate it, it looks remarkably like an ID card. 

Good enough to use in a shop to back up your debit card and fools most minor officials. 

Used it many times over 15 years.


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> When I got stopped by the GC for driving without lights (I had just driven out of a brightly lit supermarket carpark along a brightly lit street and just forgot) I was asked for driving licence and no other form of ID.
> In my seven years here I have managed not to attract the attention of the police. I must look like a respectable old dear as I have often been the only driver to pass a police check with a wave and a 'pasa senora' whilst every other driver has been stopped and questioned.


That's because you terrify them - your reputation has preceded you.


----------



## Isobella

mrypg9 said:


> As you say, IF you can find an NHS dentist...but in the town I last lived in in the UK there was one and his list was full.
> So you had no choice but to pay. Our dentist saw the writing on the wall years before the changes and introduced an insurance scheme for private care. Sandra and I were the first to sign up, I think for £50 a month for both of us. I had crowns, pins, bridges at a lower cost than on the NHS, even taking into account the annual fee, as I paid only for lab costs.
> The reality is that for most people free dental care is a myth. Even if you are entitled it covers only the most basic work, usually extractions rather than root canals, for example.
> It is a disgrace what has happened to NHS dental care. Sandra moved a motion at Labour Party Conference on that issue over twenty years ago..


I have had a root canal and a crown on NHS though it is said about a post card lottery with finding a NHS dentist. Around here they advertise for NHS patients. People on benefits are free.


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## jimenato

baldilocks said:


> That's because you terrify them - your reputation has preceded you.


I was going to say that but chickened out. You are a braver man than me Baldi.


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> That's because you terrify them - your reputation has preceded you.


Lies and slander!!! I am shuffling in my carpet slippers and crimplene to a mild and toothless old age...


Eeriously, though, the lesson taught me as a child has paid off over the years: be polite and respectful. 
Unless of course the situation requires a more forceful approach.:


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> Unless of course the situation requires a more forceful approach.:


In which case gawd help them!



jimenato said:


> I was going to say that but chickened out. You are a braver man than me Baldi.


But I am older than either of you, so I can!


----------



## Lynn R

Pesky Wesky said:


> I have never carried my passport with me.
> I've only ever been stopped once and that was in the car and I had my driving licence.
> I do however carry my sensibly sized Seg Soc card on me at all times


I don't have a driving licence so have no other form of photo ID except for my passport. I know if I needed emergency medical treatment I'd have to produce it so it's easier to have it with me than potentially face problems.


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## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> I don't have a driving licence so have no other form of photo ID except for my passport. I know if I needed emergency medical treatment I'd have to produce it so it's easier to have it with me than potentially face problems.


For me the more problematic situation (and possibly more expensive) is to have to get my passport renewed if it was stolen or lost


----------



## Lynn R

stefig said:


> I was just thinking the other day about what I'm going to do in Spain, as I don't have a driving licence and don't like carrying my passport around in case it gets lost/stolen. In the past, I've just shoved a photocopy of it in my bag, and nobody ever asked for it, but that's not really acceptable to the police, is it?


No, it isn't. I went to the police station to report a burglary and was asked for my passport. I had a credit card sized, laminated copy of mine which I carried around with me so I produced that, and got a stern telling off as I was told I should be able to produce the original at all times.


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## stefig

Lynn R said:


> No, it isn't. I went to the police station to report a burglary and was asked for my passport. I had a credit card sized, laminated copy of mine which I carried around with me so I produced that, and got a stern telling off as I was told I should be able to produce the original at all times.


Of course, if I had to go and do something official, I'd always take the original. But walking around day to day, I'd just worry that it would get lost/stolen/damaged. It really is a nuisance that the UK don't issue ID cards. I have no objection to carrying ID on me, I just don't want to lose my travel document, which is my only official form of ID!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> No, it isn't. I went to the police station to report a burglary and was asked for my passport. I had a credit card sized, laminated copy of mine which I carried around with me so I produced that, and got a stern telling off as I was told I should be able to produce the original at all times.


That's right, you are required to have it with you.
I decided that for me personally there was much more risk of me losing it or it being stolen than getting stopped or being asked to produce it, but then again I have a Spanish driving license which is most (but not all) circumstances will be sufficient and if it isn't I'll get the stern telling off or be fined.


----------



## stefig

Pesky Wesky said:


> That's right, you are required to have it with you.
> I decided that for me personally there was much more risk of me losing it or it being stolen than getting stopped or being asked to produce it, but then again I have a Spanish driving license which is most (but not all) circumstances will be sufficient and if it isn't I'll get the stern telling off or be fined.


I never once was asked to produce ID last time I lived in Spain, but then I'm a young woman who looks Spanish. Nothing about me screams 'extranjera'. My ex-boyfriend, on the other hand, was Latin American and he got stopped quite a few times and asked for his ID.


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## GaPa

Hi Joe. After holidaying in the area for the past 10 years, using a few days of each fortnight to explore the local property and social life, we arrived last week, on a final purchasing trip, armed with an extensive pack of details, gained from those trips, on-line investigations and serious legal and financial advice seeking sessions. We are both excited and understandably nervous to be stepping on the bottom rung of retirement abroad. However, we feel confident that this area, Arboleas in Almeria, is right for us. 

I have read most of the comments made, following your initial posting, and can understand the pros and cons which have been left by those living in Spain. All those have experiences, both positive and negative, which you must use to help you decide. Indeed, many of those issues raised, have been added to our thoughts and have gone some way to guide us in our move. 

Overall, you must try to investigate your own concerns, both good and bad, and, without doubt, do some home and away (no pun intended) work. 

Hope this goes a little way to easing your thoughts?

G




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Dedaneen

baldilocks said:


> But how many were happy with their move? did it work out the way it was on the TV? how many are still here? how many realised that all was not a bed of roses and later tried to move (successfully, or not) to a different area/place/country or back home? Why are there not more "A Place in the Sun - revisited" programmes?


Ive always wondered how many had made the transfer successfully too.
They arnt all your normal mover either some, almost most of them have huge budgets.


----------



## Justina

*Retiring*



Dedaneen said:


> Ive always wondered how many had made the transfer successfully too.
> They arnt all your normal mover either some, almost most of them have huge budgets.


I did see some of those programmes ages ago, and reckon they are rubbish tele.
If you are fortunate enough to have a house in the UK worth a reasonable amount then spend two thirds of it on a house in Spain and put the rest away for the proverbial rainy day.
What you spend foodwise etc., depends once again on what you eat. If you are a veggie, you will be in heaven. If you like meat, but not kilos of it, then you will also be suprised and very happily. Time to get into the kitchen.
For the most part, we don't go out much to eat, but we do like to eat well and enjoy our food at home.
It is all about turning one's head around and generally changing one's lifestyle


----------



## Dedaneen

Justina said:


> I did see some of those programmes ages ago, and reckon they are rubbish tele.
> If you are fortunate enough to have a house in the UK worth a reasonable amount then spend two thirds of it on a house in Spain and put the rest away for the proverbial rainy day.
> What you spend foodwise etc., depends once again on what you eat. If you are a veggie, you will be in heaven. If you like meat, but not kilos of it, then you will also be suprised and very happily. Time to get into the kitchen.
> For the most part, we don't go out much to eat, but we do like to eat well and enjoy our food at home.
> It is all about turning one's head around and generally changing one's lifestyle


I see your points clearly Justina and all of them make good sense washed down with a nice bottle of Rioja 

The point I was trying to make was that most of the people that Ive seen on these programs had budgets for a new house from or around £300k up with an extra 20--50k more if it was the right house. So these programs wernt catering for the average person that fancied moving in my opinion.


----------



## stefig

Dedaneen said:


> I see your points clearly Justina and all of them make good sense washed down with a nice bottle of Rioja
> 
> The point I was trying to make was that most of the people that Ive seen on these programs had budgets for a new house from or around £300k up with an extra 20--50k more if it was the right house. So these programs wernt catering for the average person that fancied moving in my opinion.


They never do! Even on the normal Location, Location, Location (hate that programme), they have couples in their late twenties with £600,000 to spend on a flat in London. Where do these people get that kind of money?


----------



## Dedaneen

stefig said:


> They never do! Even on the normal Location, Location, Location (hate that programme), they have couples in their late twenties with £600,000 to spend on a flat in London. Where do these people get that kind of money?


I so agree I rem once seeing a couple in their early 30s looking at a place in the country (England) with 70 acres here it would cost about 195k (north of scotland) they were pleased and over the moon when they heard they asking price was only 1.2 million. Jaysus imagine being able to think like that at 30


----------



## mrypg9

stefig said:


> They never do! Even on the normal Location, Location, Location (hate that programme), they have couples in their late twenties with £600,000 to spend on a flat in London. Where do these people get that kind of money?


The key words there are 'in London'. London has a micro-economic climate quite distinct from the rest of the UK. Young professionals in law, PR, the media, finance or finance-related IT can easily command six-figure salaries plus regular bonuses. 
That's why London attracts so many people from other countries. There is a large number of French professionals now working in the City, 'quants', corporate lawyers, fund managers, earning what my Old Labour ex-husband refers to as 'obscene' salaries.
These people live in a different world from the vast majority of Londoners. When I used to visit frequently on union business I used to wonder how the people who actually keep London going manage to survive....the porters, chambermaids, cleaners, street sweepers, bus drivers, shop assistants and all those whose work services the wealthy few.
The last time I used the Tube, three years ago, the fare for one stop was £4.50. As most of the workers can afford to live only in the outer suburbs a large proportion of the wages of those who work in Central London must be eaten up just by the costs of getting to work.


----------



## stefig

mrypg9 said:


> The key words there are 'in London'. London has a micro-economic climate quite distinct from the rest of the UK. Young professionals in law, PR, the media, finance or finance-related IT can easily command six-figure salaries plus regular bonuses.
> That's why London attracts so many people from other countries. There is a large number of French professionals now working in the City, 'quants', corporate lawyers, fund managers, earning what my Old Labour ex-husband refers to as 'obscene' salaries.
> These people live in a different world from the vast majority of Londoners. When I used to visit frequently on union business I used to wonder how the people who actually keep London going manage to survive....the porters, chambermaids, cleaners, street sweepers, bus drivers, shop assistants and all those whose work services the wealthy few.
> The last time I used the Tube, three years ago, the fare for one stop was £4.50. As most of the workers can afford to live only in the outer suburbs a large proportion of the wages of those who work in Central London must be eaten up just by the costs of getting to work.


I'm from London and I don't know anyone making that kind of money. Before I came to Spain, I was flatsharing with a barrister, a lawyer and a social media specialist (whatever that is) and none of them could afford to even rent alone. I was working in a university - technically a 'good' job requiring good undergrad and postgrad degrees and numerous certs - and my salary was barely in the high twenties. I could barely afford to survive in London, between repaying student loans and commuting. People who commute in London always use Oyster and would never buy single tickets, but it's still a lot of money. I paid almost £200 a month to commute from Zone 4 to Zone 1. My sister is in finance. She's in her late twenties and is on £40K, which is very good for her age, but way off six figures. She's flatsharing with 3 others. 

Anyway, the strange thing for me is that most people on these shows do not seem to be finance types. I've seen ones with teachers and so on. They must have family money behind them.


----------



## Alcalaina

stefig said:


> Anyway, the strange thing for me is that most people on these shows do not seem to be finance types. I've seen ones with teachers and so on. They must have family money behind them.


Or maybe they are actors?


----------



## stefig

Alcalaina said:


> Or maybe they are actors?


Cynical!


----------



## Rabbitcat

Well I think the whole things a fix.

How could anyone fly to Spain view 5 properties , decide on a house, buy it and complete the sale process- all in an hour- including commercial breaks. Total garbage

I am however fixated with Amanda Lamb and regularly send her creepy letters and photos- although I sent some in error to actor Larry Lamb who was upset


----------



## Dedaneen

Rabbitcat said:


> Well I think the whole things a fix.
> 
> How could anyone fly to Spain view 5 properties , decide on a house, buy it and complete the sale process- all in an hour- including commercial breaks. Total garbage


The wonders of Ryanair


----------



## baldilocks

Rabbitcat said:


> I am however fixated with Amanda Lamb and regularly send her creepy letters and photos.


I could never stand lamb, prefer pork or beef, so you are welcome to her. Having said that, I don't mind Shaun the Sheep.


----------



## baldilocks

Dedaneen said:


> The wonders of Ryanair


We have commented about that outfit before, especially the Ryanair university where people who have only done a bit of DiY previously, board a flight to Spain and alight being "fully qualified builders" or "electrician, plumbers, life science counsellors, English teachers, etc."


----------



## mrypg9

stefig said:


> I'm from London and I don't know anyone making that kind of money. Before I came to Spain, I was flatsharing with a barrister, a lawyer and a social media specialist (whatever that is) and none of them could afford to even rent alone. I was working in a university - technically a 'good' job requiring good undergrad and postgrad degrees and numerous certs - and my salary was barely in the high twenties. I could barely afford to survive in London, between repaying student loans and commuting. People who commute in London always use Oyster and would never buy single tickets, but it's still a lot of money. I paid almost £200 a month to commute from Zone 4 to Zone 1. My sister is in finance. She's in her late twenties and is on £40K, which is very good for her age, but way off six figures. She's flatsharing with 3 others.
> 
> Anyway, the strange thing for me is that most people on these shows do not seem to be finance types. I've seen ones with teachers and so on. They must have family money behind them.


Believe me, they exist...and not only in London. I know people who live in Bournemouth of all places earning six-figure salaries. Banking executives, fund managers, IT specialists with niche skills, project managers. People in my family earn these salaries in banking and finance related IT. Head teachers in large London comprehensives earn in excess of £100k. A Head of Department in a large comprehensive with London weighting would earn around £60 k plus, perhaps more.
These people are not the majority but there are enough of them about to afford these rents, fill restaurants and wine bars and even buy property. 
My ex-husband's family lived in a flat in what was then a council block in Northampton Square, Clerkenwell. Five minutes from Angel tube, five minutes from Farringdon, spitting distance to trendy Exmouth Street, Clerkenwell Green and Upper Street Islington. His brother still lives there in this rented council flat. When the opportunity arose to purchase his two bedroomed flat, he wasn't interested.
Silly boy....these flats are now selling at £750 k upwards and renting for around £3k a month. The demand is huge. He is now a pensioner so I'm guessing his rent is partly paid by Housing Benefit.
When I first moved to London that part of EC1 and N1 was definitely not fashionable, expensive or trendy. It is now! 
I had to laugh when I read about the Class War anarchists trashing the Cereal Killer Café in Shoreditch/Hoxton as a protest against 'gentrification' of the area. These trendy types were themselves riding on the first wave of gentrification, now they're being priced out by wealthier newcomers.
My ex-husband, Clerkenwell born and bred, shakes his head with incredulity as he sees areas once looked down on now seen as desirable places to live.


----------



## Rabbitcat

£750k!!!!
For £750k here in Belfast you could buy......Belfast!!!


----------



## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> £750k!!!!
> For £750k here in Belfast you could buy......Belfast!!!


I couldn't believe it when I found out what these former Islington Council flats were selling and renting for. The building is Wyclif Court, St. Johns Street, EC1, you can google it and see for yourself. It's one of those early 1960s shoeboxes, horrible.
The flat my former in-laws Nellie and Herbert used to live in and former brother-in-law Al still lives in is a small, two-bed flat with tiny kitchen and living room and very small balcony with a not very attractive view although you can see over to the Oxo Tower from the front-facing bedroom. It's on the ninth floor of a twelve storey block.
People who've bought these places have put in stripped pine floors, fancy steel kitchens and painted white thoughout. Flats on the market for sale or rent get snapped up quickly.
Thinking about teachers....teachers now retiring will have benefited from Final Salary Pension Schemes so if they have worked since leaving University they will get 50% of final salary as pension as well as a one-off lump sum of three times the annual pension. So a teacher retiring on £60 k will get a pension of £30k a year plus a tax free lump sum of £90k. Teachers often marry teachers so a couple could well have a joint pension of £50k plus as well as two cash lump sums. It's not jut teachers either, these FSS apply to many other government and local government employees. 
So it's not surprising that such people have money to buy Spanish property especially if they have UK property to sell and may also have inherited from parents. People who started out in life from modest backgrounds, the immediate post war generation, have on the whole fared well if they were lucky enough to have government or other secure employment. But times and circumstances have changed.
The generation newly retired have, some of them at least, a level of financial security previously unknown and which future generations may not enjoy.
But of course they are the lucky ones.


----------



## Dedaneen

baldilocks said:


> We have commented about that outfit before, especially the Ryanair university where people who have only done a bit of DiY previously, board a flight to Spain and alight being "fully qualified builders" or "electrician, plumbers, life science counsellors, English teachers, etc."


How many flights to become a proctologist or astronaut?


----------



## chris678

mrypg9 said:


> The key words there are 'in London'. London has a micro-economic climate quite distinct from the rest of the UK. Young professionals in law, PR, the media, finance or finance-related IT can easily command six-figure salaries plus regular bonuses.
> That's why London attracts so many people from other countries. There is a large number of French professionals now working in the City, 'quants', corporate lawyers, fund managers, earning what my Old Labour ex-husband refers to as 'obscene' salaries.
> These people live in a different world from the vast majority of Londoners. When I used to visit frequently on union business I used to wonder how the people who actually keep London going manage to survive....the porters, chambermaids, cleaners, street sweepers, bus drivers, shop assistants and all those whose work services the wealthy few.
> The last time I used the Tube, three years ago, the fare for one stop was £4.50. As most of the workers can afford to live only in the outer suburbs a large proportion of the wages of those who work in Central London must be eaten up just by the costs of getting to work.


Don't worry. Jezza announced at the Labour Party conference a policy on rent controls and rent caps. That's a real vote winner. OOhhhhh......errrrr, mind the door madam.


----------



## mrypg9

chris678 said:


> Don't worry. Jezza announced at the Labour Party conference a policy on rent controls and rent caps. That's a real vote winner. OOhhhhh......errrrr, mind the door madam.


That is a policy I back 100%. I've been a landlord myself and I firmly believe in a supply of affordable rental accommodation both social and private. 
Why should the taxpayer subsidise buy-to-let landlords?
Or low wage paying big business via tax credits..
Oh, come to think of it, Call-Me-Dave is going to cut those benefits currently granted to hardworking families.
I'm a Labour Party member , didn't vote for Jezza but support many of his policies.


----------



## Elyles

Yeah, we have areas in the colonies like those. NYC, San Francisco, hell, the whole state of California for that matter, Seattle, and every big city has it's wealthy areas but, to be honest, I don't like Donald Trump or the likes of him. Bottom line is that we live where we are comfortable. I am nowhere near wealthy but have been fortunate to have owned some nice properties because I made them that way and now live in a small flat by comparison and like it just as much as anywhere else we lived.


----------



## stefig

Elyles said:


> Yeah, we have areas in the colonies like those. NYC, San Francisco, hell, the whole state of California for that matter, Seattle, and every big city has it's wealthy areas but, to be honest, I don't like Donald Trump or the likes of him. Bottom line is that we live where we are comfortable. I am nowhere near wealthy but have been fortunate to have owned some nice properties because I made them that way and now live in a small flat by comparison and like it just as much as anywhere else we lived.


The thing is that it's not just a few wealthy areas. This is pretty much ALL of London. Flats are selling for £600,00+ in areas which are really not that nice at all, or that safe. Normal people can't afford to buy anything. Not buy anything nice, just anything at all. Not even a studio flat. I'm an educated professional and I had to flatshare with 3 others, paying almost half my monthly income to do so. The situation in London is a crisis, and it's going to come to a head sooner rather than later.


----------



## mrypg9

stefig said:


> The thing is that it's not just a few wealthy areas. This is pretty much ALL of London. Flats are selling for £600,00+ in areas which are really not that nice at all, or that safe. Normal people can't afford to buy anything. Not buy anything nice, just anything at all. Not even a studio flat. I'm an educated professional and I had to flatshare with 3 others, paying almost half my monthly income to do so. The situation in London is a crisis, and it's going to come to a head sooner rather than later.


A few days ago I saw a Tube map of London with the cost of renting a one bed flat by each station...I think the cheapest was Hatton Cross out by Heathrow where the rent was under £400 a month. Over an hour's journey into Central London..
I used to live in Muswell Hill.....it was affordable then for people on an average professional London salary. When we divorced my ex bought a run down Edwardian house in Highbury, Balfour Road, for £30k...this would have been twenty-five years ago. Being a handy sort of chap he did it up and sold it after a few years for a huge profit....He now has a house in Muswell Hill, one of those big old early twentieth century houses. It's just off the Broadway so commuters into the city take up every free parking space from six in the morning onwards and shoppers take any free spaces during the day. So you often find yourself walking ten minutes or more from your parked car to your house - after cruising around for ages looking for a space.
These houses sell for £1 million plus.
Lunacy.
Trouble is, London is where the big money is. It's also a great place to live ....if you have money. I went to UC London University many years ago, had a great time. The area around UC was cheap, loads of cheap student cafes, bookshops, bedsits...When I travelled to the UK on union business I used to stay in the Hotel Russell in Bloomsbury, Senate House across Russell Square lit up at night...very much enjoyed my few days there expenses paid but no way could I afford to live there now.


----------



## stefig

mrypg9 said:


> A few days ago I saw a Tube map of London with the cost of renting a one bed flat by each station...I think the cheapest was Hatton Cross out by Heathrow where the rent was under £400 a month. Over an hour's journey into Central London..
> I used to live in Muswell Hill.....it was affordable then for people on an average professional London salary. When we divorced my ex bought a run down Edwardian house in Highbury, Balfour Road, for £30k...this would have been twenty-five years ago. Being a handy sort of chap he did it up and sold it after a few years for a huge profit....He now has a house in Muswell Hill, one of those big old early twentieth century houses. It's just off the Broadway so commuters into the city take up every free parking space from six in the morning onwards and shoppers take any free spaces during the day. So you often find yourself walking ten minutes or more from your parked car to your house - after cruising around for ages looking for a space.
> These houses sell for £1 million plus.
> Lunacy.
> Trouble is, London is where the big money is. It's also a great place to live ....if you have money. I went to UC London University many years ago, had a great time. The area around UC was cheap, loads of cheap student cafes, bookshops, bedsits...When I travelled to the UK on union business I used to stay in the Hotel Russell in Bloomsbury, Senate House across Russell Square lit up at night...very much enjoyed my few days there expenses paid but no way could I afford to live there now.


That's not even true, though. I have friends in Hatton Cross and they said you can't find anything for under about £700. I also lived in Muswell Hill a while back...lovely area, but crazily expensive now. London is just miserable if you're a normal person on a normal wage, one big grind. In my opinion, anyway. I couldn't get back to Spain fast enough! I have a lovely big apartment now for less than I paid for a single room in a rundown house sharing with 3 other people!


----------



## deefitz

How about £500 for a bed in a cupboard?

Clapham 'bed-under-stairs' advertised for £500 a month - BBC News


----------



## Elyles

SOME Americains dearie. The higher the education and the more liberal the thinking the more adapting one is to cultural differences. We are not all like George Bush or Donald Trump. And some of us have never owned a gun. Says a liberal Democrat non gun owning retired psychologist.


----------



## stefig

deefitz said:


> How about £500 for a bed in a cupboard?
> 
> Clapham 'bed-under-stairs' advertised for £500 a month - BBC News


And people ask me why I wanted to leave London. This is why. Because you work your bum off all day to stand up throughout your hour long commute home (never any seats) and live in a cupboard under the stairs.


----------



## mrypg9

stefig said:


> And people ask me why I wanted to leave London. This is why. Because you work your bum off all day to stand up throughout your hour long commute home (never any seats) and live in a cupboard under the stairs.


But not everyone does. It's misleading to exaggerate. Sadly, a significant minority are obliged to live like that but the majority don't. 
I know many people on average London incomes, people in their thirties, forties, fifties, who live in London boroughs like Islington, Haringey, Tower Hamlets, Barnet, who are happily living and working in the capital.
Yes, there are the people you describe just as at the other end of the spectrum there are the super wealthy.
But neither represents the whole picture. London is not made up solely of paupers and plutocrats.
It's like unemployment... When 25% are unemployed we rightly see it as outrageous. But 75% are employed....and however precarious or poorly paid their employment, they have work.


----------



## Dedaneen

mrypg9 said:


> But 75% are employed....and however precarious or poorly paid their employment, they have work.


Justification for poor wages, lack of contracts, lack of stable working environments but its all ok because you can say you're working. Like that word is the elixir for the peasant.
Somehow from previous posts I didnt expect that from you


----------



## stefig

mrypg9 said:


> But not everyone does. It's misleading to exaggerate. Sadly, a significant minority are obliged to live like that but the majority don't.
> I know many people on average London incomes, people in their thirties, forties, fifties, who live in London boroughs like Islington, Haringey, Tower Hamlets, Barnet, who are happily living and working in the capital.
> Yes, there are the people you describe just as at the other end of the spectrum there are the super wealthy.
> But neither represents the whole picture. London is not made up solely of paupers and plutocrats.
> It's like unemployment... When 25% are unemployed we rightly see it as outrageous. But 75% are employed....and however precarious or poorly paid their employment, they have work.


Our view is coloured by what we know. Almost everyone I know in London is struggling. I don't consider myself 'poor'. I'm well educated and have always had professional jobs paying much more than the minimum wage, and I struggled, as did most of my colleagues. Remember also that the housing crisis is fairly recent. Back in the nineties and even early 2000s, you could still buy reasonably priced homes in London, so yes, people on average incomes over about 40 are probably doing fine. 

The people renting these awful rooms are not the 'paupers'. That's my whole point. The genuinely poor (as in working for minimum wage or less) either receive government help, or are crammed six to a room in garden sheds. They couldn't afford £500 plus bills for a single room. The thing is that many young people (<35 or a bit older) trying to make their way in the world are forced to live in substandard conditions because of the acute housing shortage in the capital.


----------



## mrypg9

Dedaneen said:


> Justification for poor wages, lack of contracts, lack of stable working environments but its all ok because you can say you're working. Like that word is the elixir for the peasant.
> Somehow from previous posts I didnt expect that from you


Well, I'm describing a situation, not justifying it, something you and sourboy failed to notice. Low wages, zero hour contracts, temporary work are, alas, a feature of contemporary employment.
But I've spent all of my working life as an active trades unionist working to change people's wages and conditions.
Please note: saying things are how they are doesn't mean you approve of them or that you don't work to change them for the better.


----------



## tarot650

mrypg9 said:


> But I've spent all of my working life as an active trades unionist working to change people's wages and conditions.
> Please note: saying things are how they are doesn't mean you approve of them or that you don't work to change them for the better.


well you did not do a good job of it


----------



## mrypg9

stefig said:


> Our view is coloured by what we know. Almost everyone I know in London is struggling. I don't consider myself 'poor'. I'm well educated and have always had professional jobs paying much more than the minimum wage, and I struggled, as did most of my colleagues. Remember also that the housing crisis is fairly recent. Back in the nineties and even early 2000s, you could still buy reasonably priced homes in London, so yes, people on average incomes over about 40 are probably doing fine.
> 
> The people renting these awful rooms are not the 'paupers'. That's my whole point. The genuinely poor (as in working for minimum wage or less) either receive government help, or are crammed six to a room in garden sheds. They couldn't afford £500 plus bills for a single room. The thing is that many young people (<35 or a bit older) trying to make their way in the world are forced to live in substandard conditions because of the acute housing shortage in the capital.


We all see things from our own experience, that's true. My London friends are mainly people in their thirties onwards, nearly all graduates, all in reasonably well-paid jobs, some in the public sector, some trades union officials, some in the private sector.
Nearly all of them are either native Londoners or have lived in London for many years. Some inherited property from parents, some rent privately, others from Housing Associations. All what I would call 'established'.
The housing crisis isn't that recent, either...it's merely got worse. My ex-husband was Chair of the Housing Crisis in a London borough in the early 1970s and believe me there was an acute shortage of affordable homes both for sale and rent even then. In the immediate post-war years it was even worse.
What I think is different now is increasing inequality between not only the super rich and those at the bottom but also between the 'comfortable' and the rest. Those I term 'comfortable' are those with reasonably secure jobs on a good professional or other wage with homes they own or rent on a secure tenancy. Another difference is the lack of funds made available for investment in social housing and the effects of the disastrous Right to Buy policy.
Both ex-partner and I have had a close interest in affordable housing. He went on to work for the Nat.Fed. of Housing Associations and I became a Director of a Housing Association.
I'm happy to learn that a future Labour Government, if elected, will embark on a massive programme of social housing and will impose rent controls. It's about time.


----------



## mrypg9

soulboy said:


> well you did not do a good job of it


Ah sourboy...you credit me with powers I do not possess...
But with you by my side as a comrade, we could have moved mountains...

Shall we make a start? As the saying goes. 'It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness'.


----------



## mrypg9

soulboy said:


> well you did not do a good job of it


But thinking about it, old bean....working with others, yes, I did play a very minor role in some major achievements of which I'm proud... I worked to return the Labour Government that introduced the Minimum Wage. I worked as a trades unionist on joint government /union committees whose remit was getting legislation that gave the right to equal pay and conditions for all workers regardless of gender, ethnicity and the other strands. 
I have intervened as 'shop steward' to secure improvements in pay for my members.
But all improvements are gained not by individual effort but by joint, collective action.
So...not my fault alone if inequalities still exist.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

stefig said:


> And people ask me why I wanted to leave London. This is why. Because you work your bum off all day to stand up throughout your hour long commute home (never any seats) and live in a cupboard under the stairs.


In Madrid I was shown a room in a big old apartment which was actually a whole row of rooms partitioned off with chip board, each one with its padlock.
When OH was buying his first flat in Madrid he looked at an old building which was totally renovated and done up, one with a typical open patio in the middle. Of course originally these didn't have their own bathrooms but a couple of toilets at the end of each corridor so the bathrooms had been newly fitted. In one of the flats the woman showed him the shower which was tall enough for an eight year and told him perfectly straight faced that he'd have to shower sitting down.
I don't think we were talking London prices, but these gems weren't dirt cheap either.


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> In Madrid I was shown a room in a big old apartment which was actually a whole row of rooms partitioned off with chip board, each one with its padlock.
> When OH was buying his first flat in Madrid he looked at an old building which was totally renovated and done up, one with a typical open patio in the middle. Of course originally these didn't have their own bathrooms but a couple of toilets at the end of each corridor so the bathrooms had been newly fitted. In one of the flats the woman showed him the shower which was tall enough for an eight year and told him perfectly straight faced that he'd have to shower sitting down.
> I don't think we were talking London prices, but these gems weren't dirt cheap either.


From what I've read, it's the same in most capital cities. It's probably difficult to find affordable rentals in Paris, Stockholm or New York too. Prague isn't exactly 'cheap'.
The only capital city I know of where it's comparably 'cheap' to rent is Berlin.


----------



## Helenameva

Pesky Wesky said:


> In Madrid I was shown a room in a big old apartment which was actually a whole row of rooms partitioned off with chip board, each one with its padlock.
> When OH was buying his first flat in Madrid he looked at an old building which was totally renovated and done up, one with a typical open patio in the middle. Of course originally these didn't have their own bathrooms but a couple of toilets at the end of each corridor so the bathrooms had been newly fitted. In one of the flats the woman showed him the shower which was tall enough for an eight year and told him perfectly straight faced that he'd have to shower sitting down.
> I don't think we were talking London prices, but these gems weren't dirt cheap either.


Luxury, we lived in a shoe box int middle o road (etc)


----------



## baldilocks

Helenameva said:


> Luxury, we lived in a shoe box int middle o road (etc)


Now that WAS luxury, we didn't even have a road, it was just a dirt track (really!)


----------



## Dedaneen

mrypg9 said:


> From what I've read, it's the same in most capital cities. It's probably difficult to find affordable rentals in Paris, Stockholm or New York too. Prague isn't exactly 'cheap'.
> The only capital city I know of where it's comparably 'cheap' to rent is Berlin.


I hear Damascus and Tehran are cheap


----------



## Elyles

You could live in the Capital of Alabama in the US (Selma) pretty cheap. Or the capitals of othe Southern States as well but the medical insurance and prescription costs are absurd.


----------



## Dedaneen

mrypg9 said:


> Well, I'm describing a situation, not justifying it, something you and sourboy failed to notice.
> Please note: saying things are how they are doesn't mean you approve of them or that you don't work to change them for the better.


Mmm contemplating letting you off then BUT as you say youre just saying it how do I know you really mean it? Probably typed the above one handed while all the fingers of the other one were crossed


----------



## Isobella

stefig said:


> And people ask me why I wanted to leave London. This is why. Because you work your bum off all day to stand up throughout your hour long commute home (never any seats) and live in a cupboard under the stairs.


Nevertheless lots of foreigners seem to love London including thousands of Spanish according to forums. A case of the grass is greener perhaps. I loved it when younger but I am a rural person now. Would be nice to have a a small pad for theatre and concert trips etc.

I bought a 2 bed flat in Putney, couldn't swing a cat in it but nice river view, cost £72,000 now around £990.000. Unfortunately I don't own it anymore. .


----------



## Rabbitcat

I have never lived in London so my knowledge of it is only through watching Eastenders.

Frankly it looks disappointing . 

No one seems to have a washing machine at home, even though they spend most of their time in the Queen Vic no one ever needs to go to the loo , the sole railway station has no trains, and there are no clothes shops as young and old alike buy all their clothes in a dingy market

No, you can keep London


----------



## baldilocks

Rabbitcat said:


> I have never lived in London so my knowledge of it is only through watching Eastenders.
> 
> Frankly it looks disappointing .
> 
> No one seems to have a washing machine at home, even though they spend most of their time in the Queen Vic no one ever needs to go to the loo , the sole railway station has no trains, and there are no clothes shops as young and old alike buy all their clothes in a dingy market
> 
> No, you can keep London


Sorry, that was just the "Fantasy Island" version, the reality is much worse. It is part of Camoron's new policies to keep illegal immigrants from wanting to come to London.


----------



## Lynn R

baldilocks said:


> Having said that, I don't mind Shaun the Sheep.


I thought that was just malicious gossip.


----------



## baldilocks

Lynn R said:


> I thought that was just malicious gossip.


Don't have welly boots now.


----------



## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Don't have welly boots now.


Ah...but I still have rubber trousers, remember...


----------



## Gazeebo

Isobella said:


> Nevertheless lots of foreigners seem to love London including thousands of Spanish according to forums. A case of the grass is greener perhaps. I loved it when younger but I am a rural person now. Would be nice to have a a small pad for theatre and concert trips etc.
> 
> I bought a 2 bed flat in Putney, couldn't swing a cat in it but nice river view, cost £72,000 now around £990.000. Unfortunately I don't own it anymore. .


I owned a flat in Wandworth - not so posh as Putney - but I did work in Upper Richmond Road and went to a dentist in Carlton Drive! I sold my flat for £72,000 but I don't think it would reach the heady heights of Putney values even now. 

London was a great place to live. I grew up south west on border of Kingston with Richmond Park and Wimbledon Common on my doorstep. Never did see a Womble.  I really appreciate the Norfolk area where I moved to about 28 years ago and would not like to live in London now. But I agree, to have a small pad would be great for going back for trips.


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## badgersquirrels

Spain is not a great place to find a solid job at the moment, that's for sure. I also don't rate the education system very highly. But I have always found it to be an extremely peaceful country with none of the aggression and loutish behaviour associated with the UK. House and land prices are currently very low and you can find lots of good quality properties, especially outside of the main touristy areas such as the Costas. I think the north of Spain, Vasque Country, Cantabria, Asturias, Donostia, Gallicia, is one of the most beautiful zones in the whole world and the people are great. It's a big country. Look around and you will a great place to live (but not work)


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## Elyles

Forget finding deals in Navarra and Aragon, they were barely affected by the crisis. Lots of Basques still with money


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## Lolito

Not sure why people keep saying you can't live in London unless you are earning lots of ££££...

I lived in London for 24 years, in Wimpole Street, Kensington High Street, Bayswater and London Bridge. 

My flat now is in Bermondsey. I bought it cheap and I managed to get together the deposit by using credit cards, my salary was in the mid 20s, and I was living quite comfortably. When I bought my flat, I was on £16k . I only needed £5k deposit. I am talking about 2005, I know things changed a lot, but it is still doable today if you know how to. 

I bought in Southwark, I wanted to work in Southwark and managed to find a job in Southwark, so it meant I could walk to work, which for me, that was the major thing, to be able to walk to work and not commutting anymore and save lots of £££ in the process.

After 11 years, I got a valuation for my flat and I almost died when they told me how much it was worth.... If I sell it now, I am sure I could by a castle here in Spain, lol!


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## Dedaneen

Lolito said:


> After 11 years, I got a valuation for my flat and I almost died when they told me how much it was worth.... If I sell it now, I am sure I could by a castle here in Spain, lol!



Good for you


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## Elyles

Many years ago I learned in my family real estate business that if you can sell when the market is up, do it fast and do not look back.


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## Liana12433

I live in the Burgos region, it is a great place, the people are so friendly, never had any negativity, will have my family here at the end of the year. We hope to visit Galicia, the guys here say it is the best place for seafood, they ***** a bit because it rains a lot, but a beautiful place none the less.
Here in the Duerro river valley is a very big wine growing region and excellent it is too. I came here blind with a job with a Spanish company, not one regret. I am in a small town. I found the eating culture hard to adjust too I have my lunch at 4.00 pm sort of late but it is the earliest I can get to the restaurant, my lunches are expensed so that is a bonus. Often taking a meal out or supper at 10.30 pm. Got used to it now. I have lived and worked in many countries in the world and this is amongst the best for me that is. TV programmes are just there for the novelty some fools thinking it is all this and that, that is the problem. As someone said above find an area which suits and rent a place. Walk around or drive about at night to see what creatures might be lurking about etc.


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## stefig

Lolito said:


> Not sure why people keep saying you can't live in London unless you are earning lots of ££££...
> 
> I lived in London for 24 years, in Wimpole Street, Kensington High Street, Bayswater and London Bridge.
> 
> My flat now is in Bermondsey. I bought it cheap and I managed to get together the deposit by using credit cards, my salary was in the mid 20s, and I was living quite comfortably. When I bought my flat, I was on £16k . I only needed £5k deposit. I am talking about 2005, I know things changed a lot, but it is still doable today if you know how to.
> 
> I bought in Southwark, I wanted to work in Southwark and managed to find a job in Southwark, so it meant I could walk to work, which for me, that was the major thing, to be able to walk to work and not commutting anymore and save lots of £££ in the process.
> 
> After 11 years, I got a valuation for my flat and I almost died when they told me how much it was worth.... If I sell it now, I am sure I could by a castle here in Spain, lol!


With all due respect, you are talking about 2005. Things have changed massively between then and now. There is no way in the world you could buy in London with a £5K deposit. They were giving out mortgages like sweets back before 2008, and now you need a deposit of at least 30-40K to buy anything at all in most of London. A 20% deposit is the norm. 

It's actually quite insulting to hear someone who was fortunate (yes, fortunate, nothing more) to grab a London property before the whole market went insane, say that you can buy now 'if you know how'. No, you can't. You wouldn't have a hope in hell of buying now on a salary of £16K. Not a hope. My sister rents in Bermondsey and is paying £2000 a month in rent between herself and her partner, in a property recently valued at £550,000. Bermondsey was cheap 10 years ago because it was dodgy/unfashionable. That's not the case now that people have been priced out of practically everywhere else.


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## Isobella

Even in the 80's London prices were considered crazy. A few days ago I was sorting some old papers (I am a hoarder) and came across a job offer 1983 which stated salary plus £1895 pa central London allowance. Don't know what the equivalent would be now but it helped me.

I see the £500pm cupboard is one claimed to be a fake. About time the newspapers did a bit of checking before publishing anything. Thought that was their role!


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## Williams2

stefig said:


> With all due respect, you are talking about 2005. Things have changed massively between then and now. There is no way in the world you could buy in London with a £5K deposit. They were giving out mortgages like sweets back before 2008, and now you need a deposit of at least 30-40K to buy anything at all in most of London. A 20% deposit is the norm.
> 
> It's actually quite insulting to hear someone who was fortunate (yes, fortunate, nothing more) to grab a London property before the whole market went insane, say that you can buy now 'if you know how'. No, you can't. You wouldn't have a hope in hell of buying now on a salary of £16K. Not a hope. My sister rents in Bermondsey and is paying £2000 a month in rent between herself and her partner, in a property recently valued at £550,000. Bermondsey was cheap 10 years ago because it was dodgy/unfashionable. That's not the case now that people have been priced out of practically everywhere else.


I'm waiting for the day when 'The City' Big business and all the other banks and
financial organisations who for some insane 'never properly explained reason'
must maintain a presence in London. Either all up sticks and close down their
offices or simply move out to some 'low cost' region of the UK. Saving their
organisation millions of pounds in needless expense.

In fact I'm sure this trend has started already with the ever increasing number
of managers, office workers, etc who are allowed to 'work from home'
In fact if this trend continues, offices will close down in London, London house
prices will stagnate ( at least amongst those buyers who used to have no other
choice but to get a place close to or near the City of London for work reasons )

Work from home, means you can keep your London job but not physically
work or commute into the city any more. Except to attend the odd board
meetings but even these can be Teleconferenced on Skype these days.


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## mrypg9

Williams2 said:


> I'm waiting for the day when 'The City' Big business and all the other banks and
> financial organisations who for some insane 'never properly explained reason'
> must maintain a presence in London. Either all up sticks and close down their
> offices or simply move out to some 'low cost' region of the UK. Saving their
> organisation millions of pounds in needless expense.
> 
> In fact I'm sure this trend has started already with the ever increasing number
> of managers, office workers, etc who are allowed to 'work from home'
> In fact if this trend continues, offices will close down in London, London house
> prices will stagnate ( at least amongst those buyers who used to have no other
> choice but to get a place close to or near the City of London for work reasons )
> 
> Work from home, means you can keep your London job but not physically
> work or commute into the city any more. Except to attend the odd board
> meetings but even these can be Teleconferenced on Skype these days.


If you can afford it, and obviously many people can, London is a great place to live. London or Luton is a no- brainer.
If I came into a very large sum of money I would buy a flat in London for the occasional visit and I know exactly where....in Sicilian Arcade off Southampton Row , Bloomsbury, or one of the Bloomsbury squares, Bedford Square, maybe....Dream on..


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## Alcalaina

Liana12433 said:


> I live in the Burgos region, it is a great place, the people are so friendly, never had any negativity, will have my family here at the end of the year. We hope to visit Galicia, the guys here say it is the best place for seafood, they ***** a bit because it rains a lot, but a beautiful place none the less...


I'd love to know what the sweary filter took out there. I can't imagine you'd use a rude word!

Yeah, Galicia is beautiful and it doesn't rain_ all_ the time ...


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## Elyles

Never happen. Look at New York and the similar cost of living there. With the last financial crisis the residency has only grown


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## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> I'd love to know what the sweary filter took out there. I can't imagine you'd use a rude word!
> 
> Yeah, Galicia is beautiful and it doesn't rain_ all_ the time ...


Female dog??


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## Megsmum

I have said this many times DO NOT COME TO EXTREMADURA horrid place


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## baldilocks

cambio said:


> I have said this many times DO NOT COME TO EXTREMADURA horrid place


or Jaén, everywhere is olive trees/bushes.


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