# Tax Adviser Recommendations



## Georgie9 (Apr 25, 2013)

Hi,
Can anyone recommend Gestors/accountants/tax specialitsts they have used who a) speak English (I'm learning Spanish but not up to financial conversations yet!) b) understand UK/Spanish tax issues to help file a resident return for 2012 and perhaps advise on UK tax sitch. 

We live in Cordoba and are currently using a local Gestor for 720 declaration but it hasn't been easy becasue of communication and she doesn't really have many foreign clients and therefore has limited knowledge of UK money/tax etc. Maybe someone in Malaga?

Thank-you.


----------



## calpeflyer (Mar 29, 2013)

If it helps I use Spanish Tax Forms Ltd. I am not yet resident but they do my yearly Income Tax Form 210 for the supposed rent I receive.
They fill out my form, pay the tax, send the form off and a copy to me. All by email/post. They have an office in UK and Spain.
www spanishtaxforms co uk 0800 0845 210 Traci Sadler


----------



## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Use a qualified tax accountant who is familiar with both Spanish and UK tax systems, and will know about different financial products and allowances. Gestors are not accountant. They are ok for simple tax returns but if you have any queries you need an expert.Tax is very complicated!


----------



## nikkisizer (Aug 20, 2011)

Hello Georgie9,

If you have any income arising in the UK such as rental income from UK property etc. then a UK tax return also needs to be submitted in respect of the 2012/13 tax year if your income is above a certain level such as:

- £10,000 or more income from savings and investments
- £2,500 or more income from untaxed savings and investments
- £10,000 or more income from property (before deducting allowable expenses)
- £2,500 or more income from property (after deducting allowable expenses)


----------



## Georgie9 (Apr 25, 2013)

*Resident in BOTH countries!*

Hi,

Thank you for the advice. Unfortunately I don't have property and my income from savings etc is quite small. 

I wonder if anyone can shed any light on how I need to proceed. I moved to Spain last year but because of how the Spanish company I work for has taxed me (basically at resident rate - not at non-resident rate), Hacienda now consider me a resident during 2012 even though I wasn't here more than 183 days. I will have to do a resident tax return in a month or so here. However I am still considered a resident in the UK (Inland Rev informed me that I can't even apply for non-res status until I've been out of the UK for a COMPLETE tax year)- so that means April 2014. I am therefore in the position of being considered resident in both countries. I am paying tax on my savings in the UK.

The Gestor who filed my 720 has advised me to NOT declare the income from my UK savings on the Spanish form for 2012. She said the year is an unusual year because of the double residency situation and said that if Hacienda question anything (because of the 720 declaration) I can prove that I was still considered a UK resident and therefore had to and did in fact pay tax in the UK during my first resident year in Spain. She did not forsee any problem. She said after this year I should end my UK residency and thereafter declare any overseas interest on my Spanish resident TR. 

This sounds reasonable but I am very wary of NOT declaring my UK income in Spain because the 720 has put the fear of God into me! I asked her if there was a space on the return for additional info (like on the UK return) to explain the situation but she said there wasn't........

Thoughts?????? Is this reasonable advice? 

If I do end up declaring on the Spanish return, will I pay interest here too? Can I reclaim somewhere? My husband was in a similar situation some years ago in the USA and he referred to the double taxation treaty between UK/USA on his return - there was a particular part of the return where you could do this. Could I do this as I know there is a treaty between UK/Spain? If not how do I avoid paying twice or claim a refund?

Thanks very much.
G


----------



## samthemainman (Aug 15, 2012)

I'm in a very similar situation - I arrived mid-August so wasn't tax resident for 2012 - but I have declared an inherited property on a 720. I'm beginning to think I should have held off declaring - but information was so sketchy on whether the 183 rule actually applied for that purpose - all of the 'official' documentation I saw said the declaration had nothing to do with fiscal residency last year, but rather if I was resident in Spain by December 2012 - I recall the word 'de facto' being used somewhere. I obtained a digital certificate and submitted it myself online - but I reckon I've made small mistakes - e.g. I think I used a different exchange rate than I should have done. I figured that having something in the system was better than nothing and facing potentially huge fines. I've seen contradicting information on alleged expat accountancy websites, the gestor community don't seem to have a clue - or rather have made their own interpretation of the rules. 

As to filing a return this year in Spain - as far as I'm concerned I wasn't tax resident last year as I arrived mid-August - I will likely seek more advice but I've been staggered by the lack of really clear advice around residency/tax residency and the applicability for the 720 form. I'm galled to have to pay two lots of tax next Spring to have to claim it back from the Inland Revenue which I know will be a big palaver - hence why I'm going to try and get the Form-Spain Individual from HMRC stamped and sent off as soon as possible to get tax deducted at source in the UK. My situation is a little complex as I am still paid by the company I work for in the UK who have approved me to work from home in Spain indefinitely, and I'm still on PAYE. I'm going to try to apply for an NT tax code by proving to the Hacienda with my residency, rental contract and water bills etc. that I will be resident for the 2013 tax year. If the wind is blowing the right direction when I show up at the tax office - I may just get lucky. 

I'm also a bit worried that by being completely honest about my assets in the UK I've now got 'on the radar' unnecessarily... I could do without 10 day deadlines to provide proof of x, y, z certificates that noone has ever heard of.


----------



## kurt85 (May 7, 2013)

Georgie9 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for the advice. Unfortunately I don't have property and my income from savings etc is quite small.
> 
> ...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi georgie,

I have just sorted this all out for myself and i work in the business and its still confusing for me!Was tempted to just leave it and forget about it! but im so glad i didnt now,i met up with a Spanish tax specialist and he went through it all with me so if i can pass that on to other expats living here i will do  If you want to meet for a coffee and have a chat to put your mind at rest then i live in the Malaga area, not far from Marbella.All i ask for is that you buy the coffee! haha

Kind Regards,

Kurt


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Georgie9 said:


> Hi,
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Can I firstly asked why you filled in modelo 720?

There are three asset classes that need declaring;

Property - but you say you don't have any
Savings - but you say that interest is low so I assume that the savings are less than 50k euros
Pension etc. - is this over 50k euros?

I suspect you have been incorrectly told to complete this form which may lead to further complications later.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> Can I firstly asked why you filled in modelo 720?
> 
> There are three asset classes that need declaring;
> 
> ...


exactly - & Georgie9 even says that the advisor said that they could prove that they weren't even tax resident in Spain for 2012 - so even if they _did _ have enough property/savings/pensions etc they wouldn't have to declare............. :confused2:


----------



## WilliamS2013 (Apr 1, 2013)

I am in a very similar situation except that I can potentially change the outcome- my issues are over this tax year (2013). I am working for a Spanish firm in Barcelona and I am currently being taxed at the non-tax resident rate as default. However I want to make sure that i do not become a tax resident here for 2013, and so I am considering all of my options. 

1) staying here for under 183 days- although as the OP mentioned, this rule is complicated and the fact that Spain might be my centre of financial interests is making me very nervous about relying on just this because of the harsh penalties if anything happens. 
2) Applying to be taxed as a non-resident on an on-going basis (the Beckham law/rule). Although I really want to make sure that this would be guarantied to keep my world wide income from being taxed by the Hacienda as tax accountants/advisors have been trying to charge me between 300-400 euros for this service.
3) Just accepting the fact that I will probably get screwed over by Spain and pay world-wide income taxes here. 

I have spoken to 6 different tax advisors/law firms now and none of them have agreed on any of the major questions I have asked them. 

One advised me that if I stay here for under 183 days that I would definitely not be viewed as a tax resident. 
Another said that I am definitely a tax resident and I should apply for the Beckham law, and then I can stay here for 5 years and not worry about non-Spanish income. 
And finally the last one said that the area is so complicated that his firm couldn't offer me proper advice (this is an international firm with offices in Spain and the UK who specialise in income tax law). 

Basically this area of the law seems to be a massive joke designed to be so complicated as to scare foreigners into declaring when they dont necessarily have to.


----------



## chris&vicky (Feb 6, 2013)

kurt85 said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Hi georgie,
> 
> I have just sorted this all out for myself and i work in the business and its still confusing for me!Was tempted to just leave it and forget about it! but im so glad i didnt now,i met up with a Spanish tax specialist and he went through it all with me so if i can pass that on to other expats living here i will do  If you want to meet for a coffee and have a chat to put your mind at rest then i live in the Malaga area, not far from Marbella.All i ask for is that you buy the coffee! haha
> ...


I notice this is the exact same post you made on another thread. I was just wondering why you are offering to meet so many people just for a cup of coffee? Are you rather partial to coffee or is there more of a commercial angle? Why don't you just post your findings to the forum to be discussed?


----------



## kurt85 (May 7, 2013)

*Thread*

Because if i refer anyone to my friend who works in the industry and has done for years(for me included)he then he buys me a couple pints at the end of the week! 

I know your all very wary(especially when we live here in Spain) but im not trying to gain anything from this other than helping people and helping my friends at the same time!(as well as gaining a couple of pints!)

If you want the advise then its there,if not then no worries 

And yes unfortunetly i am rather partial to coffee yes,especially if its done properly in a proper spanish cafeteria! 

Kind Regards
Kurt


----------



## Georgie9 (Apr 25, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> Can I firstly asked why you filled in modelo 720?
> 
> There are three asset classes that need declaring;
> 
> ...


Hi

No property or pension but savings exceed the threshold - interest is low because of rubbish interest rates.....!

I originally thought I wouldn't have to file because of the 183 day limit. I was here EXACTLY 183 days in 2012! BUT because of the way we have been taxed (the resident rate), the tax office deemed us to be resident here for 2012. I have read online that if you intend to settle at any point in the year, this overrides the 183 day stipulation. Our employment contracts are 10 months long so this demonstrates an intention to stay. Hence modelo 720. 

Any other tips for accountants etc......

Thanks.


----------



## chris&vicky (Feb 6, 2013)

Georgie9 said:


> Hi
> 
> I have read online that if you intend to settle at any point in the year, this overrides the 183 day stipulation.
> 
> Thanks.


I have also read this, but when I posted that on this forum elsewhere the replies I received suggested it was not true, but I am not so sure. 

I plan a long term let from September and that surely shows intention to stay so am worried that I will be tax resident for 2012. 

I want to speak to a professional tax adviser to clarify this when I am in Malaga next month but from what I read even the professionals give unreliable advice.


----------



## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

chris&vicky said:


> I have also read this, but when I posted that on this forum elsewhere the replies I received suggested it was not true, but I am not so sure.
> 
> I plan a long term let from September and that surely shows intention to stay so am worried that I will be tax resident for 2012.
> 
> I want to speak to a professional tax adviser to clarify this when I am in Malaga next month but from what I read even the professionals give unreliable advice.


There is a lot of confusion about this. Firstly, the law about fiscal residence is very clear. You are considered fiscally resident if you are in Spain for more than 183 days in a calendar year, or it is your centre of interests, I.e your family live here, but you work abroad. This is set out in ley 35/2006 which is the law covering "Income Tax of individuals". This is a google translation of Article 9

"Article 9 Taxpayers who have their habitual residence in Spanish territory

1. The taxpayer shall be deemed habitually resident in Spanish territory when any of the following circumstances:

a) for more than 183 days during the calendar year, in Spanish territory. To determine the period of stay in Spanish territory sporadic absences be counted unless the taxpayer proves its tax residence in another country. In the case of countries or territories considered tax havens, the tax authorities may require proof of stay in it for 183 days in the calendar year.
To determine the retention period referred to in the previous paragraph, will not count temporary stays in Spain that are a consequence of its obligations cultural collaboration agreements or humanitarian, for free, with Spanish public administrations.

b) That is in Spain the core or base of their activities or economic interests, directly or indirectly.
It is presumed, unless proven otherwise, that the taxpayer is ordinarily resident in Spanish territory when, according to the above criteria, habitually resident in Spain is not legally separated spouse and minor children who depend on it."

However, when you are resident in Spain for longer than 90 days, or you arrive here with the intention to reside here for longer than 90 days, then you are required to register on the "Registro Central de Extranjeros" - the famous green certificate. Some people believe that this means that you are the fiscally resident, but, if you refer back to the law I have quoted, it is clear you are not. There is no doubt that it is possible you will become fiscally resident, but if you arrive in September, you are not. 

Funnily enough I came across an article about this on a Malaga accountants website from 2011 using a letter about this issue to a local paper. I think I recognise the letter writer from another forum, and I have had long arguments with this person about this,. This is the link to the website http://www.spenceclarke.com/articles/to-be-a-resident-or-not-to-be-that-is-the-question


----------



## chris&vicky (Feb 6, 2013)

CapnBilly said:


> There is a lot of confusion about this. Firstly, the law about fiscal residence is very clear. You are considered fiscally resident if you are in Spain for more than 183 days in a calendar year, or it is your centre of interests, I.e your family live here, but you work abroad. This is set out in ley 35/2006 which is the law covering "Income Tax of individuals". This is a google translation of Article 9
> 
> "Article 9 Taxpayers who have their habitual residence in Spanish territory
> 
> ...


I am sure you are probably right but I did read this "You arrive in Spain with an intention to reside there indefinitely. You will then be tax-resident from the day after you arrive. Obtaining a residence permit is evidence of an intention to stay, and will count against any claim that you are not liable for Spanish tax" here ... Hot Topics - Residence & Tax - Residency


----------



## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

I did read that, which is why I pointed you to the actual law. I think that's based on the register, which is why I posted the link to the article which discusses it., which says the same as I do. I would add that there is no such thing as a "residence permit", as this article states, which I think says it all.. There is no mention f it on the Hacienda site either.

This is from the Blevins site

"EU, EEA (European Economic Area) and Swiss nationals have the right to reside in Spain for more than three months a year. This is provided they apply in person at their local Oficina de Extranjeros or a designated police station, within three months of arrival. They are then registered in the Central Register of Foreigners.

Spain has now introduced new residency rules for all EU/EEA/Swiss citizens. The basic rule above still stands, but they have tightened up the requirements.

Note that these new measures have no bearing on whether you are a tax resident in Spain or not. Tax residence is a separate issue and assessed on different criteria. You can be tax resident in Spain even if you do not apply for a formal residence permit. It is your responsibility to register for, and pay, tax if you meet one of Spain’s tax residence rules. The authorities are cracking down on people who meet the residence rules but have not been paying tax in Spain.
"


----------



## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

This is also from the Blevins site, which I think is given as a source at the bottom of that article, and in fact, if you compare them, you can tell, except the Blevins site does not include the bit about intention to reside

"Tax residency

You are resident for tax purposes if any of the following apply:

1) You spend more than 183 days in Spain in one calendar year. These days do not have to be consecutive. This rule also covers people living on a boat within 12 nautical miles of Spanish land.

2) Your “centre of economic interests” is in Spain, which means that Spain is the base for your economic or professional activities.

3) Your “centre of vital interests” is in Spain. So if your spouse (unless legally separated) and/or your dependant minor children live here, you are resident for tax purposes. This applies regardless of how many days you spend in Spain yourself.

There is no split year treatment in Spain, so you either are, or are not, resident for the whole tax year. If you arrive or leave part way through the year, you should take advice to establish your tax residence status for that year.

You also need to consider the tax residence rules of your home country (or the country you moved here from) as it will have its own rules. In the UK, a new Statutory Residence Test comes into effect next April which will provide much more certainty than the current subjective rules. However there is still a level of complexity so you should still seek advice from a firm like Blevins Franks.

It is possible to be tax resident in the UK under its rules and tax resident in Spain under its rules. In this case the UK/Spain double tax treaty ‘tie-breaker clauses’ comes into effect to determine where to pay your taxes. If these are indeterminate, it comes down to nationality.

If you are tax resident in Spain, you are liable for income, capital gains and wealth taxes on your worldwide assets and subject to Spanish succession tax on any gifts or inheritances you receive. This is in addition to other incidental tax liabilities such as IVA (VAT) and local taxes.


----------



## chris&vicky (Feb 6, 2013)

CapnBilly said:


> I would add that there is no such thing as a "residence permit", as this article states,
> 
> "


I thought a residence permit was what you got if you stay more than 90 days? I was just looking at opening a bank account with Sabadell, it is called Expansion Account. When you click the "Bank with us" on the following link it gives you the form to apply. There is a drop down list for type of ID and the possible selections are "ID Card", "Residence permit", or "Passport". But you say there is no such thing as a "residence permit"?

I just posted on another thread about opening a bank account because it was said that you have to be resident to get a no fee bank account with Sabadell, but this seems to suggest you only need your passport and maybe a nie? 

https://www.bancsabadell.com/cs/Satellite/SabAtl//GBS_Generico_FA/1191354551608/1191355345452/en/


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

chris&vicky said:


> I thought a residence permit was what you got if you stay more than 90 days? I was just looking at opening a bank account with Sabadell, it is called Expansion Account. When you click the "Bank with us" on the following link it gives you the form to apply. There is a drop down list for type of ID and the possible selections are "ID Card", "Residence permit", or "Passport". But you say there is no such thing as a "residence permit"?
> 
> I just posted on another thread about opening a bank account because it was said that you have to be resident to get a no fee bank account with Sabadell, but this seems to suggest you only need your passport and maybe a nie?
> 
> https://www.bancsabadell.com/cs/Satellite/SabAtl//GBS_Generico_FA/1191354551608/1191355345452/en/


for EU citizens there's no such thing as a 'residence permit', because strictly speaking you don't need 'permission to reside' here

what there is, is the 'certificado de registro de ciudadano de la unión' which is simply a 'certificate of registration of an EU citizen' - which is usually referred to as a _registration certificate_ 

as for 'no fee' bank accounts - I don't know of any banks which do these for non-residents - but a lot of people do wrongly refer to the _registration certificate _as the NIE which causes confusion...... & which most of us here try to correct whenever we see the mistake/misinformation


----------



## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> for EU citizens there's no such thing as a 'residence permit', because strictly speaking you don't need 'permission to reside' here
> 
> what there is, is the 'certificado de registro de ciudadano de la unión' which is simply a 'certificate of registration of an EU citizen' - which is usually referred to as a _registration certificate_
> 
> as for 'no fee' bank accounts - I don't know of any banks which do these for non-residents - but a lot of people do wrongly refer to the _registration certificate _as the NIE which causes confusion...... & which most of us here try to correct whenever we see the mistake/misinformation


This is what I would have written, more or less word for word. My final word on the site you originally linked to is this I noticed this morning on the next page.

"The current Spanish law states any individual intending to remain in Spain longer than 183 days in any one period throughout the calendar year, who is not working and does not intend to work, should apply for a Residencia. Anyone legally working, either as an employee or in a self-employed capacity, no longer need apply for a Residencia (but it may be convenient to have one rather than carry/use your passport)."

Words failed me when I read this, some of which is a direct contradiction of the previous page, and when you read this later on, it's no wonder people get confused with all the misinformation

"Please remember that once you have obtained your Residencia, you should exchange your British Driving Licence for a Spanish Licence. See Driving in Spain."

There's a long thread about this, so I won't post anything about this, except to say " err, no, that's not right"


----------



## nikkisizer (Aug 20, 2011)

CapnBilly said:


> In the UK, a new Statutory Residence Test comes into effect next April which will provide much more certainty than the current subjective rules.


The proposed HMRC SRT is expected to come into effect for the 2013-14 tax year meaning from 06 April 2013.


----------



## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

More here:

Statutory Residence Test


----------



## nikkisizer (Aug 20, 2011)

This is the latest draft guidance on the Statutory Residence Test (SRT) published this month.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/international/rdr3.pdf


----------



## chris&vicky (Feb 6, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> for EU citizens there's no such thing as a 'residence permit', because strictly speaking you don't need 'permission to reside' here
> 
> what there is, is the 'certificado de registro de ciudadano de la unión' which is simply a 'certificate of registration of an EU citizen' - which is usually referred to as a _registration certificate_


I still find this all very confusing. So are you saying that if I stay more than 90 days, I will not be working, then I have no need to apply for the 'certificado de registro de ciudadano de la unión' "because strictly speaking you don't need 'permission to reside' here"? 

I thought there were potentially big fines if you did not, up to 10,000 euro according to this ... Infracciones y sanciones - Ministerio del Interior . It classes this as a serious violation, it reads ... 

SERIOUS VIOLATIONS
Finding irregularly in Spanish territory, not having obtained an extension of stay, lack of *residence permit* or have expired more than three months to such authorization, provided that the applicant has not applied for the renewal of the same on schedule regulations.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

chris&vicky said:


> I still find this all very confusing. So are you saying that if I stay more than 90 days, I will not be working, then I have no need to apply for the 'certificado de registro de ciudadano de la unión' "because strictly speaking you don't need 'permission to reside' here"?
> 
> I thought there were potentially big fines if you did not, up to 10,000 euro according to this ... Infracciones y sanciones - Ministerio del Interior . It classes this as a serious violation, it reads ...
> 
> ...


you DO have to REGISTER

you don't actually need permission to live here though.... if you're an EU citizen

the bit you've quoted goes on to mention work permits etc. - EU citizens don't need one of those, either


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

CapnBilly said:


> This is what I would have written, more or less word for word. My final word on the site you originally linked to is this I noticed this morning on the next page.
> 
> "The current Spanish law states any individual intending to remain in Spain longer than 183 days in any one period throughout the calendar year, who is not working and does not intend to work, should apply for a Residencia. Anyone legally working, either as an employee or in a self-employed capacity, no longer need apply for a Residencia (but it may be convenient to have one rather than carry/use your passport)."
> 
> ...


there is SO MUCH on that website that is either out of date or just plain wrong, that I usually just remove any link to it as soon as I see it - missed it this time though


----------



## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

chris&vicky said:


> I still find this all very confusing. So are you saying that if I stay more than 90 days, I will not be working, then I have no need to apply for the 'certificado de registro de ciudadano de la unión' "because strictly speaking you don't need 'permission to reside' here"?
> 
> I thought there were potentially big fines if you did not, up to 10,000 euro according to this ... Infracciones y sanciones - Ministerio del Interior . It classes this as a serious violation, it reads ...
> 
> ...


Every citizen of the EU has a right to reside in another EU country ( EU 2004/38 ). - there are exceptions for a time for some new members. As far as Spain is concerned, this right is set out in 240/2007, including the need to register on the Foreigners Registers. ( subsequently amended by 16/2012 to include the need for resources etc )

"1. Every citizen of a Member State of the European Union or another State party to the Agreement on the European Economic Area have the right of residence in Spanish territory for a period exceeding three months....."

As you say, you can be fined for not registering, BUT, you cannot be asked to leave unless you are considered to be a threat. Having said that, you will find it very difficult to do a lot of official things nowadays, without being asked to produce your certificate


----------



## chris&vicky (Feb 6, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> you DO have to REGISTER
> 
> you don't actually need permission to live here though.... if you're an EU citizen
> 
> the bit you've quoted goes on to mention work permits etc. - EU citizens don't need one of those, either


Thanks. I was fairly sure that was the case, just wanted to clarify.


----------

