# American citizen or not?



## KalC

Citizen Jane Doe was born American in the US.

She married a Canadian in 1970 and has lived in Canada since. She became a canadian citizen in 1973. She obtained a Canadian passport in 1973, 1982, 1987, 1992 etc (every 5 years). In 1978, she applied for and received a US passport which she used for about 4 years. She was at that time a dual citizen. The American Consul at that time stated that 'if she took advantage of her Canadian citizenship, it would be regarded as an expatriating act"

Beginning in 1982 or '83, she stopped using her US passport and only used her Canadian passport for travel, including multiple trips to the US almost every year for the next 29 years.

She never again renewed her US passport and when told once or twice by US immigration that she could be American replied that she was Canadian.

QUESTION: has Jane relinquished her American citizenship by not renewing her US passport and by holding herself out to be Canadian when travelling to and from the US?


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## Bevdeforges

Not officially, though it can be argued whether or not she had the intent to relinquish when she took Canadian citizenship. (The fact of having had a US passport AFTER taking Canadian citizenship kind of invalidates that argument, though.)
Cheers,
Bev


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## pwdunn

KalC said:


> Citizen Jane Doe was born American in the US.
> 
> She married a Canadian in 1970 and has lived in Canada since. She became a canadian citizen in 1973. She obtained a Canadian passport in 1973, 1982, 1987, 1992 etc (every 5 years). In 1978, she applied for and received a US passport which she used for about 4 years. She was at that time a dual citizen. The American Consul at that time stated that 'if she took advantage of her Canadian citizenship, it would be regarded as an expatriating act"
> 
> Beginning in 1982 or '83, she stopped using her US passport and only used her Canadian passport for travel, including multiple trips to the US almost every year for the next 29 years.
> 
> She never again renewed her US passport and when told once or twice by US immigration that she could be American replied that she was Canadian.
> 
> QUESTION: has Jane relinquished her American citizenship by not renewing her US passport and by holding herself out to be Canadian when travelling to and from the US?


If someone at the State Department said that if she travelled on a Canadian passport, 
i.e., took advantage of her CDN citizenship, she lost her US citizenship, that may have been based on the law at that time or just an empty threat. I haven't actually read that one yet, but I've heard it too from a person who renounced 35 years ago. It may have been policy. If so, our folks need to dig up the law or policy to stick it in their faces, Saul Alinsky style. Policies change, but there is also no ex post facto law. The requirement to "officially" relinquish is new, see From the archive: Did you relinquish? Here are some proofs that the State Department uses | The Isaac Brock Society


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## 416

KalC said:


> Citizen Jane Doe was born American in the US.
> 
> She married a Canadian in 1970 and has lived in Canada since. She became a canadian citizen in 1973. She obtained a Canadian passport in 1973, 1982, 1987, 1992 etc (every 5 years). In 1978, she applied for and received a US passport which she used for about 4 years. She was at that time a dual citizen. The American Consul at that time stated that 'if she took advantage of her Canadian citizenship, it would be regarded as an expatriating act"
> 
> Beginning in 1982 or '83, she stopped using her US passport and only used her Canadian passport for travel, including multiple trips to the US almost every year for the next 29 years.
> 
> She never again renewed her US passport and when told once or twice by US immigration that she could be American replied that she was Canadian.
> 
> QUESTION: has Jane relinquished her American citizenship by not renewing her US passport and by holding herself out to be Canadian when travelling to and from the US?


Not automatically, no. These were only expatriating acts if done deliberately and with the intention of relinquishing her US nationality, and the administrative presumption is that they were not. (The US consul's advice was flawed.)

more here

If she _wants_ a CLN she is in a strong position to ask for one, but bear in mind that the IRS starts their clock not from when an expatriating act happens, but from when they are notified of it.


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## pwdunn

416 said:


> Not automatically, no. These were only expatriating acts if done deliberately and with the intention of relinquishing her US nationality, and the administrative presumption is that they were not. (The US consul's advice was flawed.)
> 
> more here
> 
> If she _wants_ a CLN she is in a strong position to ask for one, but bear in mind that the IRS starts their clock not from when an expatriating act happens, but from when they are notified of it.


The law after the Reed Amendment, said that a person must inform the consulate. This is a contradiction in the United States code. If a person committed an expatriating act in 1905 and the law in 1995 says that he has to go into a consulate to inform them of that act that does not mean that he owes 90 years of tax. That is called ex post facto which is unconstitutional. Therefore it is important to know what the law and the policy was when one commits a potentially expatriating act. Thus, if the US said she was no longer a citizen because she took advantage of her citizenship by using a CDN passport--and that was at the time the official policy of the United States, then I would say she has a good claim to not being a citizen, if that's what she wants.

The site you cite explains current law and current policy only. The State Department in collusion with the IRS and the rest of the government is trying to make people into citizens who are not, and Canadians especially need to know what their rights are.


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## Lovecheese

I decide to directly email the state department and got back a reply within hours from an attorney advisor. He indicated as long as one could explain they performed an act voluntarily and with intent of relinquishing...it's our right. He said being as I was under 18 when I applied for my Canadian citizenship and it was from birth right I may undergo more questioning from consul..he suggested I get affidavits from family members. Sounds somewhat promising...he said even though I have filed taxes recently it shouldn't matter either.


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## pwdunn

Lovecheese said:


> I decide to directly email the state department and got back a reply within hours from an attorney advisor. He indicated as long as one could explain they performed an act voluntarily and with intent of relinquishing...it's our right. He said being as I was under 18 when I applied for my Canadian citizenship and it was from birth right I may undergo more questioning from consul..he suggested I get affidavits from family members. Sounds somewhat promising...he said even though I have filed taxes recently it shouldn't matter either.


Interesting. Keep us apprised of the results, at it will affect many other people.


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## Lovecheese

PetrosResearch said:


> Interesting. Keep us apprised of the results, at it will affect many other people.


I will indeed. I'm still skeptical and not sure yet how I will proceed with relinquish or renounce.


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## Guest

Lovecheese said:


> I will indeed. I'm still skeptical and not sure yet how I will proceed with relinquish or renounce.


If you can relinquish and be done with it, why not? Renunciation, as I see it, has many adverse aspects, including the $450 fee. 

I have a Statement prepared, which I will have notarized. It ends with the fact that on January 5, 2012 I attended Citizenship Court in Calgary, AB and re-affirmed my Oath of Canadian Citizenship, the day after I renewed my Canadian Passport. I also had the honour of witnessing 100 New Canadians take their Oath of Canadian Citizenship and knowing they all had varying stories of how they arrived in Canada. With this Statement I intend to ask for Relinquishment first but will be prepared if my request for Reqlinquishment does not fly to Renounce, with all that entails for me, including having to submit my Net Worth Statement, IRS Form 8854 and, of course, the fee, which is the least of my worries, but intrusive nontheless.


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## Lovecheese

I guess fear of being questioned beyond more then my mind can handle...which is not much anymore since all this. perhaps if I take a sedative before going in...haha. I thought I have stated the path before...but Canada immigration states I should not have had to based on being birth right. I'm just scared of saying wrong facts now. I'm going to try with just saying I did think I was relinquishing...but not sure I took oath. That's the truth and being I never tried to do any acts to maintain citizenship. Fingers crossed!!!


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## Lovecheese

Lovecheese said:


> I guess fear of being questioned beyond more then my mind can handle...which is not much anymore since all this. perhaps if I take a sedative before going in...haha. I thought I have stated the path before...but Canada immigration states I should not have had to based on being birth right. I'm just scared of saying wrong facts now. I'm going to try with just saying I did think I was relinquishing...but not sure I took oath. That's the truth and being I never tried to do any acts to maintain citizenship. Fingers crossed!!!


I meant oath.....gotta love auto text on iPhones


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## Guest

Question.....

I have a friend who was born in Canada to Parents that the father was a US citizen. Since the Father worked full time in the US, they had a house on both sides of the border. This individual has never lived or worked in the States (stayed in Canada with the Canadian Mother)and has no supporting documentation from the US other than his family tree.

Accidental American?

You all know this story.....nobody believes this could actually be the case.


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## pwdunn

Mach7 said:


> Question.....
> 
> I have a friend who was born in Canada to Parents that the father was a US citizen. Since the Father worked full time in the US, they had a house on both sides of the border. This individual has never lived or worked in the States (stayed in Canada with the Canadian Mother)and has no supporting documentation from the US other than his family tree.
> 
> Accidental American?
> 
> You all know this story.....nobody believes this could actually be the case.


Mach7, see this new post on dominant nationality. I think this would settle the matter for your friend.
Dominant (and effective) nationality and why it matters | The Isaac Brock Society


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## Lovecheese

I need some advice: my mom was born in England.....then grew up in canada...got canadian citizenship and then married my US dad and became a naturalized US citizen in the 1970's. Her birth certificate and passport only have England as birthplace...and of course she has only ever had her Canadian passport. She has not filed US taxes since leaving the US in mid 90's. Do you think she should back file or ignore this mess? She doesn't have any huge assets ...no rrsp's ...just a small company pension. Any suggestions? I kinda feel like there's no way anyone would know in her case she had been American...as long as she doesn't try and claim social security...is it possible to avoid that when applying for your pension in Canada?


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## KalC

Lovecheese said:


> I need some advice: my mom was born in England.....then grew up in canada...got canadian citizenship and then married my US dad and became a naturalized US citizen in the 1970's. Her birth certificate and passport only have England as birthplace...and of course she has only ever had her Canadian passport. She has not filed US taxes since leaving the US in mid 90's. Do you think she should back file or ignore this mess? She doesn't have any huge assets ...no rrsp's ...just a small company pension. Any suggestions? I kinda feel like there's no way anyone would know in her case she had been American...as long as she doesn't try and claim social security...is it possible to avoid that when applying for your pension in Canada?


She can safely forget all about it.


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## Bevdeforges

If your mom has her 40 quarters (10 years) in for US social security, she should consider filing for it - and that would probably work best if she got up to date on her US taxes. Chances are she won't owe anything for the prior years, and basically she only needs to file enough back returns to prove that.

But, if she isn't interested in the social security and has no particular intention of returning to the US for any reason, she can probably just sit tight and stay off the radar. Depends a bit on where that company pension is coming from - if it's from the US, she'd do better to file as the company will report payments to her to the IRS.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Lovecheese

Ok thanks bev...company pension is in Canada. I'll give her the feedback and see what she decided.the recent Ovdi scared me a bit for her


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## Ladyhawk

Lovecheese said:


> Ok thanks bev...company pension is in Canada. I'll give her the feedback and see what she decided.the recent Ovdi scared me a bit for her


It's scaring a lot of us and whether or not it is meant to, it plays into IRS objectives. Keep calm and focus on facts. We are not criminals and the Cdn government will not help the IRS regarding the OVDI. 
The main source of trouble will be the Cdn banks. I am hoping that some bank or CU somewhere will recognize a golden opportunity to get new business from expats and probably even from Canadians who just want to be sure they are not going to be targeted by the IRS. Who knows, could be a new growth industry. I'm old enough to remember when some radio stations launched a "no BeeGees" playlist. Well banks, how about a "no US involvement" strategy?


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