# Renovating a house in Brittany - plumber is upset with us



## ken.pimentel

We've run into a situation that we don't understand and I'm assuming it is because we are not French.

We are renovating our house and the plumber gave us a quote for something like €40K. We asked our architect if we could just buy some of the fixtures (faucets and shower systems) as they were a lot cheaper than on the quote. The architect gave us a green light and so we purchased what we needed. Now the architect is telling us the plumber is upset and he can't guarantee his work unless he buys the faucets, etc.

Why? In both cases we're paying the bill and the plumber receives a new faucet or shower system in an unopened box. How come he can't guarantee his work? Any explanation for this?

thanks!


----------



## SPGW

I sympathise, but I doubt it is that you are not French. I am doing similar, although our plumber is not especially upset - he gave us some recommended suppliers who he works with, we found the same items (taps/faucets, shower fittings etc) from the same manufacturers at a better price. The plumber had no problem in us sourcing elsewhere and asked us to go ahead. In any case, the work that will be guaranteed is the installation, not the functioning of the items themselves. In the invoice/ facture, it should specify that the installation is of elements supplied by the client. I can't see that he will be unable to guarantee his work as a result of this. Your plumber is probably peeved at not receiving his mark-up of the goods (and if my experience is anything to go by, tradesmen have been in such demand the past couple of years that they do what they want, when they want, and under their terms). Hopefully your architect can reason with the plumber, especially since he gave the green light.


----------



## ccm47

I would ask if everything is to be gold plated but that went out of fashion years back. My OH even has some taps and other bits lying around from when he worked as a bathroom installer. He hopes one day to find a use for them, in the meanwhile they gather dust. Gold is no longer de rigueur.
How much of the original plumbing is to be reworked? How much will remain? How many rooms? 40 k for 2 bathrooms and a kitchen is excessive, for 10 bathrooms spread over a chateau, maybe not.


----------



## BackinFrance

When my plumber was doing some work for me about a year ago, I needed to have taps and shower replaced. He offered to buy them for me, but suggested I buy them myself as it would cost me less and save him time going to select and buy them. He just charged me for the fitting. But then, he is my regular plumber and we have a good working relationship.


----------



## ken.pimentel

re: size of the expense
I don't know why it is so expensive here in France, it seems about 2X for what I expected, but they are telling us we need to replace our copper piping because it is corroding at the joints. We are adding a new ensuite bathroom and kitchen plus redoing two other bathrooms. We did get two quotes, so it seems costs are very high for our area and maybe it is just the way things are these days due to Covid/Ukraine? We're putting in decent Grohe fixtures, but I hardly think those are "gold-plated". 

re: plumbers
I think we need to ask for another plumber. It seems a bad idea to have a disgruntled plumber working on your house. We were simply doing what the architect suggested would be OK to do. At no time did anyone say, "don't buy the fixtures as the plumber will be upset." If that is typical or standard, they should have warned us. 

This has been somewhat par-for-the-course with our architect. A pretty dismal experience to date. We're a year into the project and only now are getting quotes! Certainly would never work with them again. It hasn't been a language thing either as my wife and daughter speak French. We have also been very careful not to be pushy or demanding. We keep our frustrations to ourselves (and this forum!)


----------



## Bevdeforges

It sounds as though the architect is possibly working with the plumber on this one. Is it possible for you to get another devis from a different plumber? That would certainly focus the minds (of both the plumber and the architect) pretty quickly. But it depends on what you have already committed to in terms of your contract with the architect. (Especially since it's the architect who told you to go out and buy the parts yourself.)


----------



## Poloss

40K€ for renovating plumbing?
How is that possible?
Forty thousand!!!
A hotel?
Shocking


----------



## Clic Clac

Poloss said:


> 40K€ for renovating plumbing?
> How is that possible?
> *Forty thousand!!!*
> A hotel?
> Shocking


Ours cost just over half that- but at least they through in a 3 bedroom house and an acre of garden. 🤓


----------



## Harry Moles

Poloss said:


> 40K€ for renovating plumbing?
> How is that possible?
> Forty thousand!!!
> A hotel?
> Shocking


It involves pumping poop uphill?


----------



## LFBEUSTON

ken.pimentel said:


> We've run into a situation that we don't understand and I'm assuming it is because we are not French.
> 
> We are renovating our house and the plumber gave us a quote for something like €40K. We asked our architect if we could just buy some of the fixtures (faucets and shower systems) as they were a lot cheaper than on the quote. The architect gave us a green light and so we purchased what we needed. Now the architect is telling us the plumber is upset and he can't guarantee his work unless he buys the faucets, etc.
> 
> Why? In both cases we're paying the bill and the plumber receives a new faucet or shower system in an unopened box. How come he can't guarantee his work? Any explanation for this?
> 
> thanks!


Aside from the €40,000 for the plumbing, which I find hard to believe anyway! I think you would find the same attitude wherever you happen to be, the U.K., France; Germany; wherever. When tradesmen do work they buy the materials and usually receive some sort of discount from their supplier, fairly standard practice. This they can, should they so desire, pass on to the customer; some do some don't. Everything is about money! Digressing slightly but I needed specialist tyres for my car and the garage couldn't supply them quick enough so I bought them elsewhere and delivered them to the garage to be fitted. The bad feeling this caused was incredible! Like you and your plumber, they will still be paid for the work they do but in some way these people are slighted! Human nature, greed or just plain insulted! Which ever it is it is a mind set and I doubt will change. With regard guaranteeing his work: The equipment will, or should have, its own guarantee. His work is a different issue.


----------



## ken.pimentel

Many of these forum responses are shocked by the cost (as I was). We have a 200 sq meter house, not a hotel. We aren't doing anything extraordinary other than needing a new bathroom on the top floor and on the side of the house that doesn't have plumbing. That, plus two bathroom/toilet renovations plus a new kitchen are enough to do it. I think if you haven't renovated a house recently in France, your expectations might be different? I don't know, but we're doing whatever we can to reduce the costs (like buying fixtures on sale). Being new here, and never renovating a house before, does make us depend on others for "what's reasonable". Our architects are not shocked by the costs. They are telling us it is common.

We do need to work this out with the architect now. I feel if the plumber is this testy about something we were directed to do, what happens when we have a real issue?


----------



## LFBEUSTON

ken.pimentel said:


> Many of these forum responses are shocked by the cost (as I was). We have a 200 sq meter house, not a hotel. We aren't doing anything extraordinary other than needing a new bathroom on the top floor and on the side of the house that doesn't have plumbing. That, plus two bathroom/toilet renovations plus a new kitchen are enough to do it. I think if you haven't renovated a house recently in France, your expectations might be different? I don't know, but we're doing whatever we can to reduce the costs (like buying fixtures on sale). Being new here, and never renovating a house before, does make us depend on others for "what's reasonable". Our architects are not shocked by the costs. They are telling us it is common.
> 
> We do need to work this out with the architect now. I feel if the plumber is this testy about something we were directed to do, what happens when we have a real issue?


Just one final point: I accept you have said you are new here (in France) but I very rarely, if ever, engage someone without speaking to my neighbours to try and get a recommendation. Local knowledge is invaluable in these situations. Forgive me if that is what you have done. As for the €40,000 perhaps this cost includes the construction of the bathroom(s) and a new kitchen as well as the plumbing and not just for the plumbing which I, perhaps, misunderstood was the case?


----------



## travertine

Do you have a contract with the architect that spells out what they are responsible for doing? If they are the 'project managers' then their recommendation to source the fittings should stand and they should be managing the plumber. In theory! We're currently finishing a bathroom and kitchen renovation (and now starting on a new garage) and the plumber has been more than happy for us to source and purchase the products - less running around for him, less paperwork, and it keeps his income/expenses tidier.


----------



## rynd2it

Most of the contractors we have used have wanted us to buy the materials as it saves us money. If the contractor supplies materials he has to charge VAT on them so you end up paying the VAT twice. If you buy the materials then there is no mark-up.


----------



## Befuddled

It sounds to me you are getting the famous Prix Anglais. 40 large for plumbing a modest house is extortion.

I was amazed to hear that a friend engaged an architect to do the drawings for a planning application to extend a 2-car garage into a small workshop. The friend was entirely capable of doing it himself but was very busy running a business and wasn't familiar with the procedure in France. He was seriously annoyed when he found that the plans drawn by the architect did not include any specifications for structural elements, only basic dimensions and external views. The bill came to over €2000. When pressed about the omission, the architect said _"that will be the responsibility of the builder"_.

Things are certainly different here in France.


----------



## Bevdeforges

ken.pimentel said:


> other than needing a new bathroom on the top floor and on the side of the house that doesn't have plumbing.


I suspect that this has quite a bit to do with the rather high estimate you got. How far, I wonder, does the existing plumbing have to be extended to reach the are where the new bathroom is going in? I know in our house here (110 m2) all the plumbing seems to be in a central core section of the house, where the toilets are located, with a spur for the kitchen sink, and another for the sink and tub in the upstairs bath room. But those are no more than 2 or 3 meters from the "core" area. We don't even have an outdoor spigot for a hose - rather a hose spigot in the garage in the basement, which is (surprisingly enough) just off that core section where the plumbing is centered.

It may be quite a bit of work to run new pipes and drains up to the top floor on the far side of the house from where the plumbing is located. And, the construction of the house may add to the "challenge" of running pipes in that particular area.


----------



## Poloss

ken.pimentel said:


> We have a 200 sq meter house, not a hotel. We aren't doing anything extraordinary other than needing a new bathroom on the top floor and on the side of the house that doesn't have plumbing. That, plus two bathroom/toilet renovations plus a new kitchen are enough to do it.


Thanks for detailing the extent of the works.
If I understand correctly, your project consist in creating two new bathrooms, doing two bathroom/toilet renovations plus fitting a new kitchen?
We estimate a modest 6m² bathroom at around 6000€ but just the basics.
A kitchen would be around 10 000€ and the two renovations could be around 3000€.
That's simply the material without paying tradesmen and VAT

Suddenly your 40K bill seems a little less shocking - go for 30k


----------



## ken.pimentel

We estimate about €20K to be the hard goods we need to buy for three new bathrooms (not keeping any of the old gear) and the kitchen. The price of goods has gone up in the last year and we are trying to purchase quality goods that will last us. We intend to be in the house for the next 20 years, so we're thinking long term. 

The upstairs, totally new bathroom is at the far end of where the plumbing originates for the house, so that explains some of the cost. Replacing the copper piping downstairs with PVC is €6K by itself. 

We did contract with the architect to manage the process because of our lack of expertise on renovations in general and France in particular. So far, it hasn't been a pleasant experience, but I'm not here to complain on the forum, I just really wanted to understand if we had unrealistic expectations. It seems the consensus is that it shouldn't be a big deal for us to buy the gear we need and we're paying too much overall. 

Our architect says that a renovation cost of €1,750 per sq meter is "normal" these days. We seem to be falling into that bracket given the extent of what we're doing.


----------



## BackinFrance

I suspect your architect may well be correct in terms of cost, given the complexity of your project and current costs especially with regard to labour as plumbers have always been in high demand and can easily achieve pay increases that match inflation, but if you are able to negotiate a better price, so much the better.


----------



## SPGW

It's hard to comment on cost without all details - but €40K for 3 bathrooms and a kitchen, with high quality fittings, isn't unreasonable if this is an entire build, no doubt re-wiring and of course the regulation VMC, and bringing assainissement up to today's standards are part of the project.

Btw, in my experience, some items bought directly by the tradesman carry only 10% VAT, whereas if you buy them yourself to have them fitted by the tradesman, you pay 20% VAT. So, logically, and if the tradesman is transparent about the costs, you should pay less by having him supoply the goods (not to mention time and transport involved if you are in a remote location).


----------



## BackinFrance

I doubt the plumber is doing all the work himself as there would be other trades involved (electricians, tilers and the like). Given that French artisans definitely do not like working in the same space as other trades, perhaps the plumbing contractor is contracting and managing them. 

As for the insurance issue, that could be related to issues with the 10 year coverage.


----------



## SPGW

Quite common to find a chauffagiste-electrician-plombier: A single entreprise.


----------

