# Jure Sanguinis - Ancestor Married Twice



## jamesws (Dec 2, 2017)

Hello all,

I am in the process of applying for Italian citizenship by 'jure sanguinis' through my great grandfather. He had a wife in Italy who he did not divorce before leaving for Australia where he met my great grandmother and started a new family. Will the fact that he still had a wife in Italy, and that his marriage to my great grandmother was a second marriage have any impact on my eligibility for citizenship?

Any advice would be appreciated, thank you!


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

It shouldn't.


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## Italia-Mx (Jan 14, 2009)

Yes, it probably will. Your great-grandfather abandoned a wife in Italy and possibly children who you don't know about and then remarried in another country without getting divorced. That is called Bigamy and it's a crime in Italy. I don't know of any case where the descendant of an Italian bigamist has been recognized with citizenship because Italy does not want those people coming back to live in Italy as there could be some sort of vendetta involving the family that was abandoned.


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## rpbalbis (Jun 26, 2012)

Italia-Mx said:


> Yes, it probably will. Your great-grandfather abandoned a wife in Italy and possibly children who you don't know about and then remarried in another country without getting divorced. That is called Bigamy and it's a crime in Italy. *I don't know of any case where the descendant of an Italian bigamist has been recognized with citizenship because Italy does not want those people coming back to live in Italy as there could be some sort of vendetta involving the family that was abandoned*.


I feel sorry to say it, but this has to be the most asinine contribution to this forum ever... Congratulazione!


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## Italia-Mx (Jan 14, 2009)

So rpbalbis, please enlighten us with your opinion on how it should be handled. Thanks.


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## Italia-Mx (Jan 14, 2009)

rpbalbis said:


> I feel sorry to say it, but this has to be the most asinine contribution to this forum ever... Congratulazione!


Furthermore, Italy offers monogamous marriage only which does not allow for polygamy or bigamy. If an Italian living in Italy in a monogamous marriage committed bigamy, he could expect to go to jail so why do you think it's OK for him to commit bigamy in another country and have his descendants be rewarded for it?

Regarding a vendetta. While the case I'm familiar with didn't involve obtaining citizenship, it did involve a second family returning to an ancestral homeland and being rebuffed by the original family that was abandoned.

So, again, please explain to the forum why this could never happen. Grazie.


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## panama rick (Oct 15, 2014)

FYI. We just finished my wife's jure sanguinis. And although the courts recognized her right to citizenship the commune of Teramo would not issue her residence card without a divorice decree from a previous marriage. I know this is not quite the same, but Italy takes this issue seriously.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

If I'm reading this whole thing correctly, it was the great grandfather who committed bigamy. The main thing I see here is that the second marriage in Australia may very well not be recognized by the Italian authorities. What you need to consider, though, is how Italian citizenship was transmitted at that time.

Basically, how does/would Italian law handle an illegitimate child in these circumstances? Can an Italian father transmit Italian nationality to an illegitimate child born overseas?
Cheers,
Bev


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## Italia-Mx (Jan 14, 2009)

panama rick said:


> FYI. We just finished my wife's jure sanguinis. And although the courts recognized her right to citizenship the commune of Teramo would not issue her residence card without a divorice decree from a previous marriage. I know this is not quite the same, but Italy takes this issue seriously.


Hi, yes, you're correct. Italy does take it seriously and that's why six weeks prior to a scheduled marriage in Italy, bans of marriage are issued to the public to allow anyone who knows why the couple might not be free to marry to come forward. For example, a member of the public might know that one of the spouses is not free to marry because he/she already has a husband or a wife and is not divorced from that spouse. 

If an Italian goes overseas and commits bigamy, they can basically get away with it because there is no way for the fact that he is not free to marry to come to light. However, once a descendant comes forward with a request to be recognized as a citizen through that ancestor, it's at this time that Italy becomes aware of it and will likely deny citizenship to the descendants of Italians who have committed crimes.


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## Italia-Mx (Jan 14, 2009)

Bevdeforges said:


> If I'm reading this whole thing correctly, it was the great grandfather who committed bigamy. The main thing I see here is that the second marriage in Australia may very well not be recognized by the Italian authorities. What you need to consider, though, is how Italian citizenship was transmitted at that time.
> 
> Basically, how does/would Italian law handle an illegitimate child in these circumstances? Can an Italian father transmit Italian nationality to an illegitimate child born overseas?
> Cheers,
> Bev


The second marriage by the great-grandfather in Australia would not be recognized by Italian authorities because he was already married to a woman in Italy and yes the children would be considered illegitimate and could only be recognized if the father was still alive and could swear or provide DNA that proves he is the father. We're talking more than three generations ago, so this is not likely. And as I said before there is the abandoned family to consider as well. It would not surprise me if the original family had the right to object to the recognition of descendants who exist because the original family was abandoned.


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## rpbalbis (Jun 26, 2012)

Italia-Mx said:


> So rpbalbis, please enlighten us with your opinion on how it should be handled. Thanks.


Ok, let's see. I can tell you a couple of ways the "situation" should not be handled. There are unfortunately enough stereotypes going around about Italians in the world's popular culture, for someone to reply to a seemingly serious person asking for a technical question about an immigration and Italian civil law issue, to tangentially opt to bring up vendettas/blood feuds over here. Are you a "mentally land-locked" Southern-Sicilian, do you watch or take too seriously Hollywood scripts? A supposedly Italian-descent individual perpetuating Italian-denigrating stories from last century is notable. That's why I felt like adding my two cents over here. I have no desire to debate with you, I would ask you if I may to just be a little more thoughtful before sharing your ideas about the world and Italians in particular -just because I have Italian blood, but really about any nationality.


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## Italia-Mx (Jan 14, 2009)

rpbalbis said:


> A supposedly Italian-descent individual perpetuating Italian-denigrating stories from last century is notable. That's why I felt like adding my two cents over here. I have no desire to debate with you, I would ask you if I may to just be a little more thoughtful before sharing your ideas about the world and Italians in particular -just because I have Italian blood, but really about any nationality.


No, I'm not a supposedly Italian-descent individual. I'm an Italian citizen living for 20years in the region of Italy where all four of my grand-parents were born and raised. With your Italian blood and from your vantage point there in SPAIN, I'm sure you know all about Italians in Italy when in fact the only thing you know about Italians in general is what you learned in the USA. 

For example, I suppose you think it was correct for Italian-American lawyers in the USA to send a letter to Italian authorities instructing them not to recognize Robert De Niro as an Italian citizen because he makes movies about the Mafia. Do you know what Italian authorities did with that silly letter? They ignored it stating that Italy has a Constitution and under it, De Niro is an Italian citizen. The mayor of De Niro's ancestral town, in all his wisdom and common sense, went even further saying that De Niro is more than welcome to be one of us and that movies about the Mafia are just movies -- but also that the Mafia is a part of Italian history and NO part of Italian history can ever be denied, which would also include my comment about vendetta.


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## panama rick (Oct 15, 2014)

Hi James. As I said earlier my wife and I just finished our process and it took over 2 years as we did not have a marriage certificate for her grandparents. That required us to go to court. My suggestion is to contact an attorney. You have a complicated situation. We (along with many other's) used Luigi Paiano in Bologna. He did everything he said he would do from beginning to end. He's handled hundreds of these cases and established a good relationship with the courts. I'm sure he will advise you at no cost. Just Google him.


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## KenzoXIV (Nov 13, 2013)

Italia-Mx said:


> The second marriage by the great-grandfather in Australia would not be recognized by Italian authorities because he was already married to a woman in Italy and yes the children would be considered illegitimate and could only be recognized if the father was still alive and could swear or provide DNA that proves he is the father. We're talking more than three generations ago, so this is not likely. And as I said before there is the abandoned family to consider as well. It would not surprise me if the original family had the right to object to the recognition of descendants who exist because the original family was abandoned.


I have to say (and Italia-MX don't think this is at you, I always hit reply with quote at the bottom and you were last, this is general to everyone) please can we all remember there is a real person at the end of this being called an "illegitamate child and or relative". I agree this is not a straight forward citizenship question and that different views will need to be put forward but I am sure we could all be a little more compassionate as well.

To the OP:

You can see the concerns put before you with regards to your question. It is complicated and if there was never a divorce in Italy to your ancestors original (and I assume 1st) wife this will complicate things. My advice will be go to your local Italian consulate and explain the situation as openly and honestly as possible and be led by the people who know. Do not be disheartened however if you receive bad news, the world is a complicated place but normally there are ways around things. Sometimes it can be long and windy but all roads lead to Rome, I hope so in your case!

Kenzo

Edit: Last on page 1 - I never made it to page 2.... Reading now!!


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## KenzoXIV (Nov 13, 2013)

rpbalbis said:


> Are you a "mentally land-locked" Southern-Sicilian, .


..............Having read page 2 I would be very interested to hear an explanation of this comment.

Ignoring the fact that all Sicilians are southern there are some points to be made.

Vendettas are still a problem down here, no where near the level they used to be but I can honestly say I have seen some interesting reprecussions of vendettas here even in my relatively short time here (5 years).

Still with that said stereotyping needs to be shown the door and that can start by not calling out Sicilians as mentally land locked... you were trying to put out a fire with gasoline there!

Kenzo


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## Italia-Mx (Jan 14, 2009)

Agreed. Which reminds me it does help to actually LIVE in the country in question instead of expecting people to behave culturally the way Italian-American lawyers in the USA think they should behave.


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