# To run from US job culture or not to run?



## Gotham (Feb 3, 2010)

Hello all, this is my first post but I've been scouring several national forums over this board and I have some question that I have been wrestling with.

I was born in the former USSR, but I was only 9 when I got here to the states.. I will be 27 this coming may, and I'm American by far.

In my time here though, I have been a little jaded by the jobs I've held and the people I've met. I live in Buffalo, NY and have been a head clerk at a retail store while I went to college, then a retail manager after promotion, then a commodity broker coordinator at a local commodity brokerage, promoted to Lead IT tech.

I left my job some time back and am about to finish my Masters of Science in Management Information Systems. A degree I can take a lot of places.
---


My issue has been that I find the work culture that I have experienced here stateside particularly unpleasant. I leave it to the possibility that retail management and an internally competitive brokerage might have been exceptions to the norm.. but I have been seriously disheartened.

The prevailing attitudes of exhaustive self servitude, extreme consciousness of self image, and unnecessary-yet-encouraged adversarial hostility towards coworkers have been the theme of my work experience here in the states so far. 

It may be harsh, but I find people here are often cruel to both themselves and others with a commonplace sense that is just so abrasive to your own ethical core that it will breed debilitating hopelessness inside you if you let it.

Perhaps its the places I worked, or the depressing attitude of Buffalo in general.. but after years of this, I cant bare to call these an illusion any longer.

This past August I took a 2 week trip to NZ, where I stayed a week at a Buddhist monastery and the 2nd week touring the country on an adventure tour. We met so many locals, and the people everywhere were so welcoming, that I forgot to shield myself in that same sense of mild preemptive adversarial cautionary abrasiveness that I required while dealing with businesses and unknown individuals here stateside. The expectations of my interactions were raised, my sense of base ethical humanity bolstered, and my environmental reluctance, spiritually eroded more and more with each interaction. It was a sense of happiness I didn't think I'd relive after leaving childhood.

I have been giving the idea of moving to NZ after my degree some VERY serious thought. I already understand some baseline taxation practice, immigration policy, dual citizenship, currency, housing, job, and insurance issues I would need to surmount if I should make the move.


But.........


I feel this sense about the move.. this feeling of abandoning friendships and family ties. I hate these feelings of guilt, as if I was being ungrateful to my country.

Before I commit to anything, I just wanted to hear the opinions of others, about working in the US and abroad. 

Should I really make the move? Is this a case of grass being greener on the other side? Should I give a different state a try first? Or should I grab a 2 year work visa to NZ and try that, and then come back when my disillusionment fades?

How did you guys do it.. how did you take that final step?

(I'm going to post this in the NZ section as well)


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## Weebie (Sep 16, 2009)

Welcome to work.

Its no different in Australia and England from my experience.

Hope this helps.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

I'd try moving within the US first. But as with any move - international or not - you need to be running to something rather than away from something.

Thanks to globalisation and the current recession you'll find that the workplace is becoming a lonely, competitive playing field just about anywhere you go. What you need to do is to develop your personal life outside of work to make up for the indignities of the workplace. 

The problem in the US is that you often have no "rights" to a life away from the workplace (or these rights aren't recognized). It varies by industry and company, but at some point you need to assert your right to take a vacation where you aren't tied to your phone or Blackberry. (I.e. go to the Buddhist monastery for a few days, where you can't be disturbed or just don't answer the phone until a time when it's convenient for you.)
Cheers,
Bev


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## AmyWW (Jan 20, 2010)

Weebie said:


> Welcome to work.
> 
> Its no different in Australia and England from my experience.
> 
> Hope this helps.


I think you are comparing apples to oranges here.

It's very difficult to compare work in Buffalo (especially since it's still Winter!) to a two week vacation at a Buddhist monastery and an adventure tour in New Zealand in the Summer! I think you would have to work hard to find two experiences further apart.

I live (when I'm not in London) near Boulder, CO. and the largest stupa in the Western hemisphere (so they claim). If you came here in the summer and stayed there, took a course, did some whitewater rafting, hiking, quad biking, chatted with the locals, I think you'd have a great time, too, and might think about moving West. Many people do.

There is a sense of possibilities, a feeling that life could be 'more' than just work and striving for position at job you don't care too much about with people you think you have nothing in common with. It's a normal reaction, especially to such a great vacation. A little reverse culture shock. I spend 6 weeks touring sub-Saharan Africa and I spend months thinking about how I could get back. I was depressed for ages (it felt like).

I think you might want to think a little about the nature of work and that work/life balance in general. It sounds like you've gone from school, school and work, work, and then Masters degree. Maybe you need to take some time out and travel around the US and see if it is 'US culture' or just the idea of working in IS in an office for 'the rest of your life' that is getting you down. Maybe you do need a radical change or maybe you need to connect to a community outside of work that can help you explore your life.

What's very American, I think, is the urge to move, to leave and think that we can leave of problems, our sense of dis-ease behind. But, as the Buddhist say, where ever you go, there you are. We take our issues with us. Like Weebie said, work is work and people are people all over.


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## Gotham (Feb 3, 2010)

Bevdeforges said:


> I'd try moving within the US first. But as with any move - international or not - you need to be running to something rather than away from something.
> 
> Thanks to globalisation and the current recession you'll find that the workplace is becoming a lonely, competitive playing field just about anywhere you go. What you need to do is to develop your personal life outside of work to make up for the indignities of the workplace.
> 
> ...


Its strange.. I went to that monastery to explore things within and without.. I ended up planting Japanese cedar and pine trees up and down giant NZ rolling hillsides around the monastery for a week. I think it might be the hardest I've ever worked, and the dirtiest I ever got.. and the first time I ever felt comfort in exhaustion. I went to sleep after work each day, dead as a rock tired, yet never stressed.. I think breaking that duality might have been the thing that put all these crazy ideas in my head.

Its funny, but its now firmly planted in the "activities & hobbies" portion of my resume, as "Assistant Grounds Keeper - Vimutti Buddhist Monastery, Bombay, NZ" .. and I've gotten questions about it on my interviews.

I think there are many issues in the US work-life balance. And you're right.. these "rights" do not exist in many employers eyes.

The people though.. its not fair to blame it all on just what happens at the desks. There are marked differences between the people themselves in these countries, and it would be foolish to ignore I feel.

My experience outside was short.. I guess I cannot truly tell if the workplace in NZ is any less self-absorbed and image obsessed. But the outer population felt like this.. while the outer population here in Buffalo does not.

I'm sure that not ever kiwi can be nice, but I didn't stay at posh hotels.. I was with a group of backpackers, moving from hostel to hostel, down on the streets. We had 2 guys there from NYC ironically, and their image absorbed, judgmental personalities stood out like sore thumbs midst 7 Irish, 2 Brits, 2 Canucks, and me from Buffalo. Again, it just reinforced the contrast for me. Perhaps people everywhere else are just nicer to each-other?

We can say that work everywhere can be like this.. but how much of an outer personality or culture bleeds into the workplace itself?

Its true, that I shouldn't expect a vacation experience at work.. but its also true that there is no way I could replicate the Buffalo experience in NZ. What do I trust?


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## Gotham (Feb 3, 2010)

AmyWW said:


> I think you are comparing apples to oranges here.
> 
> It's very difficult to compare work in Buffalo (especially since it's still Winter!) to a two week vacation at a Buddhist monastery and an adventure tour in New Zealand in the Summer! I think you would have to work hard to find two experiences further apart.
> 
> ...


Its funny that you mention Boulder.. I got family in Denver. If only I could convince myself that the personalities there were any different, and that it all wouldn't clash even further with my liberal political views. You know what, it might just do me a world of good on its own to be completely removed from US politics for a good while. I get so involved & stressed out.

What community could one connect to outside of work that might help me explore my life? I belong to a few communities, but I haven't met many who even think of the things I give great personal debate to. Things like what this post is about.. that work/life balance. So many that I talk to would just nod and look depressed, leaving me feeling guilty as if I had depressed them further.

I should also say that at this point in my life, I lack that significant other with whom to share these thoughts as well. And it hasn't been easy.

You're right though.. the idea of working in an office for the rest of my life does scare me. But what can I do. The field is interesting enough. It has just been such a mis-match between me and the office culture that I've so far encountered.. are there truly no greener pastures?


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## miss omy (Feb 9, 2010)

im an australian who lives and works in america

i find the work "ethos" or ethic to be very different.

australians are more laid back and friendly- we have a condition of "mateship" where we'll do anything to help a "mate"

_in america i find they only do something if it benefits them in some way_.

example
an american in my lab needs to use the microscope- i have it booked, i shorten my booking- change my work schedule, so i can help her out.
this is NOT reciprocated.

our lab needs certain things done- ordering, cleaning, making reagents. the Americans never offer to assist in this- only the Europeans and Australians do it.

i know this is a common sentiment shared by the australians and europeans i work with in america.

there are SOME exceptions to the rule- generally those are americans who have worked outside of america.

harsh, but true


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## AmyWW (Jan 20, 2010)

Gotham said:


> Its funny that you mention Boulder.. I got family in Denver. If only I could convince myself that the personalities there were any different, and that it all wouldn't clash even further with my liberal political views. You know what, it might just do me a world of good on its own to be completely removed from US politics for a good while. I get so involved & stressed out.


I can assure you, Boulder won't clash with your liberal political views. Denver is a city. There are all types of people there. I don't recommend there so much, but that's just a personal preference.



Gotham said:


> What community could one connect to outside of work that might help me explore my life? I belong to a few communities, but I haven't met many who even think of the things I give great personal debate to. Things like what this post is about.. that work/life balance. So many that I talk to would just nod and look depressed, leaving me feeling guilty as if I had depressed them further.


You say you're politically liberal and enjoyed the Buddhism in NZ. Have you checked out the UU Church in Buffalo? It's at buffalouu.org Looks like they have some good discussion groups and social action committees. If you're not close to that one, you can check out the others near there at sld.uua.org/congregations. There is also a Buddhist sitting group in Buffalo that you can google.

As far as having no significant other, it can seem a bit lonely, I know, but it does give you the freedom to work through this stuff for yourself, without trying to fit another person in, or worse, work your way right out of relationship as you try to restructure your life and finding out that what you thought you wanted wasn't.

It is absolutely worth figuring out. There is no one 'greener pasture.' One person's nightmare is another's dream job. You have to find out what is right for you. It takes time and research and dead ends and taking chances and ruling stuff out because it wasn't right even though you thought it was. And you change as you grow, so what is perfect now isn't in five years. Or life throws you a curveball you never expected.

Just keep your eyes open for opportunity. Keep searching and traveling and looking for odd opportunities. A career advisor is good, too, for tests and such.

Good luck! Keep searching and be flexible for change, don't expect anything to be perfect because nothing is, but life can be great.


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## Gotham (Feb 3, 2010)

miss omy said:


> im an australian who lives and works in america
> 
> i find the work "ethos" or ethic to be very different.
> 
> ...


Spot on.. it is true. I'm trying to predict just how much of an impact is it going to have over me for the rest of my life and if its worth making the move now. Its just so hard go guess, and the consequences for guessing wrong are stiff =/


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## miss omy (Feb 9, 2010)

Gotham said:


> Spot on.. it is true. I'm trying to predict just how much of an impact is it going to have over me for the rest of my life and if its worth making the move now. Its just so hard go guess, and the consequences for guessing wrong are stiff =/


if you want a relaxed lifestyle- NZ
if you want the killer career- usa


for me ive worked out that the relaxed lifestyle and mateship in australia is worth it's weight in gold- and look forward to returning home in 2 years time. america is a hard place in which you are judged by what you do, not who you are as a person. which is great if you want to earn a lot of money and be really successful, the competitive environment thrives off it.

however, true success is not always measured with money- NZ youre going to be eating a better quality food (cattle is all grass fed-NO corn syrup in products there), have access to some of the most beautiful landscapes in the world, and interact with friendly "kiwis".

good luck!


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## Gotham (Feb 3, 2010)

AmyWW said:


> You say you're politically liberal and enjoyed the Buddhism in NZ. Have you checked out the UU Church in Buffalo? It's at buffalouu.org Looks like they have some good discussion groups and social action committees. If you're not close to that one, you can check out the others near there at sld.uua.org/congregations. There is also a Buddhist sitting group in Buffalo that you can google.
> 
> As far as having no significant other, it can seem a bit lonely, I know, but it does give you the freedom to work through this stuff for yourself, without trying to fit another person in, or worse, work your way right out of relationship as you try to restructure your life and finding out that what you thought you wanted wasn't.
> 
> ...


A lot of interesting points. I don't think a church is for me though, but I do belong to that sitting group you mentioned. It may not be nice, but I find that in group spirituality settings, there are always people who introduce shallowness, novelty fascination, and self aggrandization into the picture.. joining that sitting group gave me only a medium sized exposure but further convinced me that I'd prefer to talk to studied members of the movement when discussing things. Like I still trade e-mails with the Abbot of the monastery in NZ, and I listen to the talks of monks and other Abbots on YouTube and such. But I feel no draw into any form of public practice. 

This notion of self-servitude that we're discussing here extends into any such groups I find... there are nice people here though, and maybe not every place is like the places where I worked.. I just wish that I had a firm grasp on where it would lead me in the future if I was to stay here vs. move to NZ.

I'm even thinking about how making relationships might be easier with NZ girls for the same reasons... am I crazy?


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## Asian Spirit (Mar 1, 2010)

Moving overseas is a big step. Its important to not only locate your country of choice but to travel there a few times before making the move. This helps to insure that you are making the right decision.

Since you are living in the Eastern US, I can understand your feeling of being cut off from people. It’s the same in Los Angeles where I grew up and lived. 

Moving West as one of the other posters said here can be a good idea before making the drastic move overseas. 
Before I retired and moved here to the Philippines, I lived in Utah, Idaho, North Dakota, Montana, and even Nebraska. I had always loved traveling and living in new places. 

Other than California, most of the western states are good places to live. Most have people that seem to like people. One place I lived in Utah for example, was quite small and everyone knew most everyone else. Never took the keys out of my car at night and when leaving the house, even on a two week vacation I never even locked the house!

So before making a drastic and very costly move to another country and culture, some time in the western US might be a good idea…


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## CLawson (Mar 12, 2010)

Hi Gotham! 

I would have to agree with the other poster, who suggested to maybe try out the West or Midwest. 

I was born and raised in a suburb of Kansas City, and have moved north of there to the country a few years ago - love it. Everyone helps everyone in the smaller midwest communities. Everyone knows everyone still. 

Funny, maybe 20 years ago I worked with a fellow from Connecticut, and he never could get used to the slower pace here, and that was when I still lived in KC. He finally moved back east again. We all work hard here, but perhaps not as image driven/conscious. People tend to be thrifty. 

The pay scales may not be as much as you are used to back east, but the cost of living is probably a lot lower too.


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## Asian Spirit (Mar 1, 2010)

*Midwest*



CLawson said:


> Hi Gotham!
> 
> I would have to agree with the other poster, who suggested to maybe try out the West or Midwest.
> 
> ...


Hi Clawson,

Kansas City? We were almost neighbors! The last place I lived in the US was just outside of Grand Island Nebraska. Great place and the little town I lived in (Chapman) was extremeley small. The only real store in town was a Bosselmans 24 hour minimart!

Good memories from there but sure glad I moved to the Philippines. No more snow for heaven sakes!!!! Hahahaha:clap2:


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## Gotham (Feb 3, 2010)

I'm thinking about Portland, OR, Seattle, WA, or Raleigh, NC. I have to get out of Buffalo.

Maybe even Denver, CO or Boulder, CO. But I hear housing in Boulder is half-mil+.. and Denver I hear has a population of 10-gallon-hat wearing ultra-conservative, wanna-be-cowboys. I don't know what to think.

I guess I'm on the liberal side of things, including lifestyle. I don't want to end up in a western town where everyone loves you only if you believe what they do.

Think those would be any different?


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## Asian Spirit (Mar 1, 2010)

*Go West Young Man, Go West*



Gotham said:


> I'm thinking about Portland, OR, Seattle, WA, or Raleigh, NC. I have to get out of Buffalo.
> 
> Maybe even Denver, CO or Boulder, CO. But I hear housing in Boulder is half-mil+.. and Denver I hear has a population of 10-gallon-hat wearing ultra-conservative, wanna-be-cowboys. I don't know what to think.
> 
> ...


Hi Gotham,

Denver really is a good sized city. But is not much of a conservative place any longer. It's too large for that. 
Good part about the Denver area is that a 30 minute drive and you are out of the city and in beautiful country.

For an extremely liberal place to live just drive another 8 hours west from Denver and you are in Las Vegas Nevada. Vegas is a 24/7 city if there ever was one.
Just like Denver, a short drive in any direction and you are out in the country. But in Nevada its all desert--hot and dry.
From Vegas, Los Angeles Calif is 292 miles away and takes just 5 1/2 hours by car on Interstate 15.

If Vegas is still like it was, most jobs are union and pay quite well.
However a friend of mine returned from Vegas just two weeks ago. News papers in Vegas are reporting a 12% unemployment rate due to the financial crisis.
Very unusual for Nevada to have such a high unemployment rate. But its an indacator of the problems in California, Arizona, and Oregon where Vegas casinos and hotels get most of their business.

Good luck on the trek west. And if you get to the pacific ocean and still cant find a suitable place, just get on a jet and come across the pacific on a 14 hour flight here to the Philippines! Not much in the way of employment but beautiful women EVERYWHERE and NEVER any snow...:eyebrows:


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## CLawson (Mar 12, 2010)

Hi Gene & Viol!

Wow, yes, you are lucky not to have been in Nebraska this year! We have had so much snow this year - and they had a whole lot more than we did even. 

Yeah, Vegas has been one of the worst hit in terms of jobs and foreclosures. I don't know how Seattle fared, but it used to be more liberal. Beautiful country up there. I've always been partial to that area, but it is expensive there. I guess just about everywhere in the US is expensive compared to where I am, so I'm probably not the one to tell you about that. 

My son moved to Albuquerque last summer and really seems to like it there better than Northwest Missouri. I know what you mean though - I like it here, and I get along fine with everybody, but I never ever talk about religion or politics with anyone - not ever. Two topics I just refuse to discuss.


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## Asian Spirit (Mar 1, 2010)

*Cost of living in the states*



CLawson said:


> Hi Gene & Viol!
> 
> Wow, yes, you are lucky not to have been in Nebraska this year! We have had so much snow this year - and they had a whole lot more than we did even.
> 
> ...


Yea, the job market there now makes it hard to figure out where to go or what to do. I've been here for seven years now and glad I made the move when I did. Cost of living here is EXTREMELY low. Less than 1/3 of Nebraska.
Another American we know that lives just a few blocks from here just got back from Albuqerque about two weeks ago. He enjoyed the trip but was shocked to see the higher prices on everything.

Well, hope you are able to find a good place to move and live. A word of advice if I may. If you decide to move outside of the US, be sure to take a few trips to your chosen country before commiting to the move. Would be terrible to find out later that it was a mistake.
Moving to the Philippines is the best thing I've done. But for many its a real eye opener after the new wears off and they end up leaving. I would guess its the same with other countries too.

Take care,

Gene and Viol...


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## jjacques27 (Mar 14, 2010)

Gotham, as someone who grew up in another country (Mexico in my case) and studied and now working in the US, I think I understand what you are talking about, and in a way I have been feeling the same way. I have worked in California, and in Texas. The work environment is not something that I like, but then I'm not sure how different it would be in a different country. In that respect you might be falling on the idea that "pastures are greener on the other side" which might not really be the case. However, I have also traveled to New Zealand, Australia, and several countries in Europe, and have found the people to be much more open and friendlier than people here in the US. But then I don't know if everyone would look at it in the same way. For that, you would need to do some traveling to notice these differences, and then you would have to make a decision on what is that you consider more important and where you would feel happier. 

I went to visit some family in France last year, and I was surprised at the way they look at the work-life balance compared to how we look at it in the US. Is not that the French don't like to work, as a matter of fact, they do work pretty hard. But the difference is that they don't live to work, but they work to live. And whenever the corporate culture or the government tries to impose changes that conflict with this ideology, people tend to protest, and it works. This is not the case in the US, where people just do what they are told. So yes there are sociocultural differences between one country and another. If you are thinking on spending some time in a different country to see how it plays out.... I don't think that would be a waste of time. There's nothing wrong with looking for the place that makes you feel happy. But its also true that one thing is going on a vacation, and another thing is living and working at that location. 

If you had a good time in NZ and want to try living and working there for some time, then go ahead and try it. If you don't do it, and you just stick around for fear of what might happen, then you'll never know.


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## MannaPro (Mar 16, 2010)

Gotham said:


> My issue has been that I find the work culture that I have experienced here stateside particularly unpleasant. I have been seriously disheartened.
> 
> The prevailing attitudes of exhaustive self servitude, extreme consciousness of self image, and unnecessary-yet-encouraged adversarial hostility towards coworkers have been the theme of my work experience here in the states so far.
> 
> It may be harsh, but I find people here are often cruel to both themselves and others with a commonplace sense that is just so abrasive to your own ethical core that it will breed debilitating hopelessness inside you if you let it.


It's a dog eat dog in America. It's every man for himself. Some thrive in that environment while others whither in it. You got to bring it everyday here or you'll get eaten alive. I think I'm going to miss that. 

My dad told me this little nursery rhyme when I was a toddler and it's served me well. 

_Be a buddy tried and true, F#*% your buddy before he F#%&*'s you _


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## Jynxgirl (Nov 27, 2009)

That 'nursery' rhyme about sums up why the rest of the world doesnt like the USA.


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## Gotham (Feb 3, 2010)

MannaPro said:


> It's a dog eat dog in America. It's every man for himself. Some thrive in that environment while others whither in it. You got to bring it everyday here or you'll get eaten alive. I think I'm going to miss that.
> 
> My dad told me this little nursery rhyme when I was a toddler and it's served me well.
> 
> _Be a buddy tried and true, F#*% your buddy before he F#%&*'s you _


We're not dogs. Some of the selfishness you see is so petty, it is hard to believe people can feel so hostile as to lose the entirely of who they are, in arguments so small and irrelevant.. just for the sake of image or self service. Its like nothing they are or have been before that minuet matters more than attaining that one desire.. as they move from desire to desire, never really satisfied, but willing to kill others in the pursuit. 

And this attitude that you're describing has crippled many companies and scattered the corpses in the aftermath. Your Rockafellers and Madoffs were successful because people bought into their images. And as our workplaces descend further into believing the "advertising" that people do about themselves, the further we'll depart from meritocracy and slide into a land managed by Ken and Barby.

Before going abroad, I was convinced for a while that the something that was wrong, was wrong with me... but it wasn't. Good people and workplaces do seem to exist, where you work to live, not live to work, as the above poster said.

Why is it so hard for people to see themselves as entitled not to belong SO ENTIRELY to their workplace? Is there nothing more satisfying, self-defining or meaningful?

I just got a good internship here in Buffalo, offered to me before I am now about to finish my masters... I was offered it, and I took it... I regret that I did not yet send out my New Zealand applications, but I have spoken with an immigration agent.

The internship does keep me in Buffalo though, which is a bit disappointing, but its a huge company and if things do go well, I'll be able to travel eventually, I think. 

I'm going to give this stateside work another shot before I write it off, but I'm prepared to drop it like a bad habit this time, instead of sticking around for years like my last job.


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## Asian Spirit (Mar 1, 2010)

*The American Grind*



MannaPro said:


> It's a dog eat dog in America. It's every man for himself. Some thrive in that environment while others whither in it. You got to bring it everyday here or you'll get eaten alive. I think I'm going to miss that.
> 
> My dad told me this little nursery rhyme when I was a toddler and it's served me well.
> 
> _Be a buddy tried and true, F#*% your buddy before he F#%&*'s you _


Its not that bad is it guys??? Now I'm scared to go out:behindsofa:

Just kidding, I grew up in Los Angeles and worked there for many years. I didnt really notice much of a problem until I made a few trips here to the Philippines and then finally moved here in 2003.

I think living in the states is great for people who's main goal is to get ahead and make money. But even those things are much harder to do now. 

Living here in a 3rd world country I miss the convienience of everything being available all the time and the fact that even the most simple things in life work right.
But for comfort and low cost of living I'll put up with the BS and enjoy living here in the Philippines and watch whats going on in the states on CNN----that is when my cable television is working...


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## MannaPro (Mar 16, 2010)

Could it be that Gotham is just wising up as he gets older? Maybe it's that faith in humanity is inversely proportional to life experience? I've traveled the world and deep down people are the same wherever you go. Sure if you compare Buffalo New York to a Buddhist colony in New Zealand, Buffalo is gonna come out on the short end but overall, beneath the surface it's every man for himself in this world. Don't say it's just the American culture.


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## royanu (Feb 15, 2010)

Interesting nursery rhyme! 

I am thinking along the same lines as this poster. But instead of from Buffalo, I am thinking from a Canadian perspective. I grew up in the States in Chicago & NY, and I can confidently say that people in the big cities tend to be all the same. Torontonians are just a dash nicer than their US counterparts (but not by too much!) 

I would suggest what some other posters have also. I.e. move to another city first. USA has a great variety of good places. I would do the same but unfortunately I do not have that luxury. The only other good and NOT frigid place is British Columbia, which is incredibly expensive to live and the pay does not make up for it sadly. But you are in a much better position as far as moving nationally is concerned. So don't hold back!

I plan to take a trip down to NZ as well sometime next year. Though work/life balance is attractive there, the cost of living/pay seems like a downer.


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## MannaPro (Mar 16, 2010)

royanu said:


> Interesting nursery rhyme!
> 
> I am thinking along the same lines as this poster. (


Remember when you were a little kid and you thought all cops were honest, and that doctors really cared about their patients, and that your mother would never screw around on your father? Oh man those were the days. I'd love to be nieve again.


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## Gotham (Feb 3, 2010)

MannaPro said:


> Remember when you were a little kid and you thought all cops were honest, and that doctors really cared about their patients, and that your mother would never screw around on your father? Oh man those were the days. I'd love to be nieve again.


I don't think its _naive_ on anyone's part. I want you to consider what the world would be like if everyone so wholeheartedly believed your statement.

Are we to believe that no cops are honest, no doctors care about their patients, and no mothers are faithful? I want you to think about what the world would be like if there was no such trust, foolishly placed or not.

I've not yet given up on humanity, I know good people, I've met them, I've worked with them. I assure you they exist.

And call it naivete but I think that you have bought into your own line of thinking and see it everywhere you go. I know what its like, I already presume the worst in many business interactions.

The point is, that if you want to find the exception to any, presumed, bleak part of life, you have to be the exception. But I bet you think that will just get you screwed over, don't you?

What burns is what I think what you must act like if you walk around with these presumptions and treat others accordingly. Perhaps you could let yourself suspend your disbelief at some point and see what happens?

As for myself, I must say, I don't intend to adopt this outlook and shut myself off from good people, workplace or otherwise.


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## MannaPro (Mar 16, 2010)

Gotham said:


> I don't think its _naive_ on anyone's part. I want you to consider what the world would be like if everyone so wholeheartedly believed your statement.
> 
> Are we to believe that no cops are honest, no doctors care about their patients, and no mothers are faithful? I want you to think about what the world would be like if there was no such trust, foolishly placed or not.
> 
> ...


You're a salesman's dream, and you assume I treat everyone accordingly, I don't, I'm a phony like everyone else.


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## Gotham (Feb 3, 2010)

MannaPro said:


> You're a salesman's dream, and you assume I treat everyone accordingly, I don't, I'm a phony like everyone else.


And you keep taking my disenchantment as a nod to naivete. I assure I'm as faithless about superstition as I am analytical about people. I lived & worked at a Buddhist monastery, but that does not make me a hippie. I intend to neither gauge or defend my maturity.

What I'm telling you, is what I know. And that is that there are people with well-reasoned psychological outlooks and emotional maturity to understand things with greater patience. Their words are intended to guide as they best can, and their actions as empty of self absorption as much as their own apprehensions about you will let them. These are base, the start of relationships worth building.

I think that the fundamental difference between you and me lies not in our interpretation but our goals. If you feel the need to act 'phony' to get ahead, then to get ahead is your goal. I feel no such need, and move with as much patience as I can bring, towards a goal of what I feel is more satisfying to me, which is trust and reflection. I wont deny seeking financial security as anyone, but the desire does not overtake my sense of self. I still practice meditation and self control and feel no denial of self.

Do you think that when we ask for favors, one of us would be denied?

At least understand that there are those who see things different and take it as a point of self respect to act according to what they feel is right, not just what is right for them.


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## MannaPro (Mar 16, 2010)

Gotham said:


> And you keep taking my disenchantment as a nod to naivete. I assure I'm as faithless about superstition as I am analytical about people. I lived & worked at a Buddhist monastery, but that does not make me a hippie. I intend to neither gauge or defend my maturity.
> 
> What I'm telling you, is what I know. And that is that there are people with well-reasoned psychological outlooks and emotional maturity to understand things with greater patience. Their words are intended to guide as they best can, and their actions as empty of self absorption as much as their own apprehensions about you will let them. These are base, the start of relationships worth building.
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to get ahead..I am ahead. I have everything I want right now. But you know how I got ahead when I was younger? I did favors. I had everyone around me owing me favors. Somebody needed help moving, I was right there. Somebody needed their car fixed and did'nt have the money, I got it done. Somebody needed a loan, I was there for them. Somebody needed their nieghbors dog to stop barking all night, I made it happen. Even if it costs me money, I did it. An old timer told me when I was young that whenever you can do something for someone, do it and they will be indebted to you for life. I always wanted to know when people were in trouble so I could get them out of it. I eventually ended up working for a union and since I had everyone in management owing me favors I'd get guys who got fired for stealing, or guys that didn't show up for work a 3rd and 4th chance. And then those guys owed me a favor- and everybody has a skill wether it's fixing cars, tiling floors, laying carpet, whatever...Even to this day whenever I need plumbing electrical, or my house painted or something I get it done at a ridiculously low price and sometimes free, and they are glad to do it..


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## Jynxgirl (Nov 27, 2009)

Interesting.. 

One that is ahead... 

"Hi people, I'm moving to Dubai from the U.S. in a few weeks. I took a lucrative position as a business development manager for a top company. I'm the best at what I do and I'm hoping by taking this position I will attract the attention of top management here at home. This is a stepping stone for me so I want to do well."

Dont usually move to a country that they have obvious disdain for... 

"_What are you doing in that god foresaken... "_


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## MannaPro (Mar 16, 2010)

Jynxgirl said:


> Interesting..
> 
> One that is ahead...
> 
> ...


What does this has to do with Gothams whining and preaching?


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## Jynxgirl (Nov 27, 2009)

MannaPro said:


> I'm not trying to get ahead..I am ahead. I have everything I want right now.


Because one that is commenting on knowing anything about the business culture in america (and making us look like idiots I might add), would prob not be taking a job to get ahead, if he has everything he wants.


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## MannaPro (Mar 16, 2010)

Jynxgirl said:


> Because one that is commenting on knowing anything about the business culture in america (and making us look like idiots I might add), would prob not be taking a job to get ahead, if he has everything he wants.


We'll i'm not taking the job...

Who needs it..Anyway, back to the subject- This conversation with Gotham reminds me of one I had with a guy I met while flying across the Pacific Ocean the other night. I get up between movies to stretch and he comes up to me and says _"you ever read this book?", _I say _"I don't read books", _and then he says _"It's the bible"_ I say _"I'll see ya later"_ and go up to where the flight attendants are and ask for a cup of coffee, while she's getting it he comes up and says _" The evil is coming you know_" so I say _"Hey, I am the evil, I'm already here_" then he just walks away.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

MannaPro said:


> We'll i'm not taking the job...
> 
> Who needs it..Anyway, back to the subject- This conversation with Gotham reminds me of one I had with a guy I met while flying across the Pacific Ocean the other night. I get up between movies to stretch and he comes up to me and says _"you ever read this book?", _I say _"I don't read books", _and then he says _"It's the bible"_ I say _"I'll see ya later"_ and go up to where the flight attendants are and ask for a cup of coffee, while she's getting it he comes up and says _" The evil is coming you know_" so I say _"Hey, I am the evil, I'm already here_" then he just walks away.



Not only would it be nice if you stayed on the post topic, but it would be so nice if you could stop talking in riddles and stop talking about yourself. This is an expat forum not the "mannaPro" show

Jo x


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## Gotham (Feb 3, 2010)

MannaPro said:


> What does this has to do with Gothams whining and preaching?


I think its evidence that someone took as counter to your assertion of:


MannaPro said:


> I'm not trying to get ahead..I am ahead. I have everything I want right now.


I stopped responding to you because you took things way off topic and sounded more like you were trying to convince yourself through justification than trying to give sound advice. Talk about preaching.

I think we have chosen different modes of lifestyle that lead us both to goals that leave us content, however, what makes us content is not the same. I absolutely cannot see myself happy with your approach, it would be a betrayal of both my reasoned intellect and the accumulated intangible perceptions. 

I know myself, and you know yourself, and we have a core that cannot change.

I will refute your assertion that your method would lead to any advance that would leave me content, and you'll keep fighting it by peacocking. 


Lets just agree to disagree and let people who share my core (as there obviously seems to be) comment on dealing with the outer environment & work terrain, and not trying to force an incompatible life outlook and justifying it as a means to an end you assume we share. And that is where I'll leave that argument.

I'm starting my internship at a large French company this monday, I'm giving this another shot, I'll be able to add more to this thread as to my experience as time goes on.. both positive or negative.

I hope others are finding this thread useful.


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## MannaPro (Mar 16, 2010)

I know guys like you, your thermostat is set to high. You're thinking too much. I bet you sit up in bed thinking about this stuff while I sleep like a log for 10 hours a night. You got thoughts on top of thoughts, piled on top of more thoughts and one day the hole things gonna come crashing down like a house of cards. 

I think they call it a nervous breakdown.

And P.S.- No matter how you live you're life we are all going to end up in the same place and thats buried in dirt, so just relax and enjoy the ride. I sincerely hope you take my advice in the spirit in which it was given.


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