# Is life better in Spain?



## MonkeyHarris

Hi

Thinking of moving to Spain to retire in a couple of years. So trying to do me research. The papers say it's no longer a bed of rose's. But from the people living the dream what do think? Does your pound go further? Is your standard of living better or worse than back in the UK?


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## 90199

It is certainly a better, warmer, less costly, life here in the Canary Islands


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## Lynn R

For us in the South of the mainland, we find our pounds go further, the climate is far better than where we left (North West England). the vast majority of Spanish people we come into contact with are lovely, we have had no hassles with bureaucracy nor did we buy an illegal house, the health service is good and in fact I cannot think of a single downside.


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## mrypg9

I live in Spain. I am reasonably healthy and have no money worries.
Ten years ago, I lived in the UK. I was reasonably healthy and had no money worries.
I lived for three years in Prague. I was reasonably healthy and had no money worries.
So life has been good to me wherever I have lived. I'm lucky.
My standard of living has not really changed for the better merely because I moved to Spain, chiefly because of those two important factors.
I am not 'living the dream' because I have enjoyed life wherever I lived and to be honest, I have never understood that phrase. 
Life in Spain is different in some ways, not in others. It's obviously a lot warmer although it does get cold in Spain, snows even...How different your life may be depends a lot on where you decide to settle, really. Where you choose to live depends on your taste and of course affordability.
So for me, life is not 'better' but it is indeed very very pleasant and I do not intend to move on from here...ever.


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## Lynn R

The single most important thing you can do to improve your chances of enjoying life in Spain and finding it easier (apart from, as Mary says, making sure you have sufficient means to support whatever kind of lifestyle you want) is to learn the language. It makes all the difference.


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## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> The single most important thing you can do to improve your chances of enjoying life in Spain and finding it easier (apart from, as Mary says, making sure you have sufficient means to support whatever kind of lifestyle you want) is to learn the language. It makes all the difference.


Well, yes and no.. I do agree with you that people should make an effort to learn Spanish but many immigrants don't want to and their lives aren't really affected as they have chosen to live in a British environment and transport their lifestyle unchanged with them to Spain.
I saw a programme on TV once about a group of older British immigrants living on the Costa Brava. They spoke no Spanish at all and were having a wonderful time. They had their own lawn bowling club, had nights out at the British Legion Club, shopped at British stores, read British newspapers and had roast Sunday lunches in British cafes.
They were a very happy bunch of oldies enjoying in Spain all the things they'd enjoyed in the UK with the same kind of people.
Now that kind of thing wouldn't suit you or me but as I always say there are no rules as to how to live in Spain and sobre los gustos and all that...
They weren't missing anything because they didn't know what they might be missing....


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## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> Well, yes and no.. I do agree with you that people should make an effort to learn Spanish but many immigrants don't want to and their lives aren't really affected as they have chosen to live in a British environment and transport their lifestyle unchanged with them to Spain.
> I saw a programme on TV once about a group of older British immigrants living on the Costa Brava. They spoke no Spanish at all and were having a wonderful time. They had their own lawn bowling club, had nights out at the British Legion Club, shopped at British stores, read British newspapers and had roast Sunday lunches in British cafes.
> They were a very happy bunch of oldies enjoying in Spain all the things they'd enjoyed in the UK with the same kind of people.
> Now that kind of thing wouldn't suit you or me but as I always say there are no rules as to how to live in Spain and sobre los gustos and all that...
> They weren't missing anything because they didn't know what they might be missing....


I didn't say they had to. But how many tales do we hear on here about people who struggle with the bureaucratic procedures largely because they have little or no Spanish, or have to pay for translators to accompany them to all kinds of appointments, or get frightened by rubbish they've read in the English language free papers? All of that disappears if you can communicate for yourself and understand what's going on.


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## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> I didn't say they had to. But how many tales do we hear on here about people who struggle with the bureaucratic procedures largely because they have little or no Spanish, or have to pay for translators to accompany them to all kinds of appointments, or get frightened by rubbish they've read in the English language free papers? All of that disappears if you can communicate for yourself and understand what's going on.


As I said...I agree with you. Speaking the language of any country I spend time in is a priority for me. I even learned enough Czech and Polish to enable me to deal with most situations and converse with people.
My point is simply that there are very many people here who manage perfectly well and are happy who know no Spanish. 
When they have problems or need to deal with bureaucracy they get a friend to help or pay someone.
A friend from Gibraltar who is bilingual is married to a man who speaks not a word of Spanish. He has to rely on her in all situations where Spanish is required.
He is a lot older than she is so most probably won't have to learn to cope without her.


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> They weren't missing anything because they didn't know what they might be missing....


I think that people who live that that aren't missing anything because they are just not interested in knowing about, or taking part in anything different.
They are happy as they are.



> *Lynn R* The single most important thing you can do to improve your chances of enjoying life in Spain and finding it easier (apart from, as Mary says, making sure you have sufficient means to support whatever kind of lifestyle you want) is to learn the language. It makes all the difference.


I agree that you will have a completely different understanding of where you are and will experience Spain and not a mere substitute for the UK if you make an effort with the language , but I also agree with what mrypg9 says, some people just don't want to and don't need to to be happy.


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## Pesky Wesky

MonkeyHarris said:


> Hi
> 
> Thinking of moving to Spain to retire in a couple of years. So trying to do me research. The papers say it's no longer a bed of rose's. But from the people living the dream what do think? Does your pound go further? Is your standard of living better or worse than back in the UK?


A lot of retired people live very well here. 
Life for people with families and who need to find work has been very difficult in the last few years as Spain was/ is very affected by the crisis. This has made things especially difficult for people with no or low level Spanish and no qualifications.
Retired people still need to do their sums though, make sure that healthcare is covered, and also to think realistically about leaving friends and family, old age in a foreign country, and the lifestyle they really can and want to have.


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## Horlics

Hey Op,

The papers are wrong, it's a bed of roses. You have a choice of experiencing another country and culture, or surrounding yourself in britishness. Whichever you choose, the living is certainly no more expensive than the UK and is in my experience lower, and when the exchange rate swings like it has, it's much cheaper, so yes, the pound goes further.

As for standard of living, if you take away the essentials like a roof, food, utilities, etc. then what you're left with is how you spend your time, and that, by and large, is outside. At this time of year jackets are required, of course, but you aren't going to getting soaked or blown around anything like as many times as you are in the UK. I'm in the UK now, and if winter were to remain like it is today, I probably wouldn't voluntarily step outside again until March. Friends in Spain yesterday were enjoying a sit in the sun in the afternoon.


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## Chopera

Money generally goes a bit further but if you have to work the lower salary and longer hours usually don't compensate in the long run. Especially if you need to "try your hand" in order to get a job, since you probably won't like it. There are exceptions of course.


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## el romeral

MonkeyHarris said:


> Hi
> 
> Thinking of moving to Spain to retire in a couple of years. So trying to do me research. The papers say it's no longer a bed of rose's. But from the people living the dream what do think? Does your pound go further? Is your standard of living better or worse than back in the UK?


If you took away the better weather in Spain and how that changes the way you are able to live and your lifestyle then it is a no brainer. Britain is better in pretty much every area. How many of us would put up with all the stuff that goes on here if it were not for the sun factor?


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## Pesky Wesky

el romeral said:


> If you took away the better weather in Spain and how that changes the way you are able to live and your lifestyle then it is a no brainer. Britain is better in pretty much every area. How many of us would put up with all the stuff that goes on here if it were not for the sun factor?


"All the stuff that goes on here"... so what is that? That seems to imply that there are lots of negatives and the only positive is the weather, is that right?
I find life here more enjoyable for me in many aspects, but not just the weather. In fact I don't like the very hot weather that we get in the Madrid region, and I had to chip ice off the car in the morning at least once this week so the weather isn't "it" for me.


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## Rabbitcat

Well I think a great part of life there would be the generosity of the ex pats

I mean, here I am a very poor non Spain property owner and yet I KNOW any day now one of our forum members with a nice pad out there is bound to offer me a free hol....any day now


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## 90199

el romeral said:


> How many of us would put up with all the stuff that goes on here if it were not for the sun factor?


Well I would. 

I have to visit the U.K. sometime in the latter half of next year, business, I am dreading it.

Life here on the Meridian Isle, is of another standard to the life I once lead all those years ago in the U.K. Returning here is always a pleasure, here is our home, this is where we belong in sunshine or rain.


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## Lynn R

el romeral said:


> How many of us would put up with all the stuff that goes on here if it were not for the sun factor?


I would. I looked at the local news one day last week because I'm going back to Manchester for a short visit next week. Besides the rubbish weather, Piccadilly railway station was shut down for hours , including the evening rush hour, because of a trespasser on the line, and there was gridlock in the city centre (there often is) resulting in an Evening News reporter taking 2 hours to travel 2 miles across the city. I felt for him, I've been there myself many times. 

3 members of my close family suffered horrendous failings at the hands of the NHS, resulting in their deaths.

When I go back there, I don't walk around on my own after dark. I don't like feeling afraid to be out on the street at night.

When I travel anywhere by train whilst I'm back there, very often I'll have to stand in the aisle for the full duration of the journey although the tickets have cost many times their Spanish equivalents, and they are often not on time and subject to frequent cancellations. Bus services are few and far between in the evenings and especially on Sundays. 

The behaviour of some people (a minority, but they certainly make their presence felt) is appalling. Public drunkenness, constant use of foul language, failure to control their children, etc.

I never got to go to concerts (anything from a full orchestra to flamenco, by way of classical guitar or a blues band) a few minutes' walk from my home, I'd have had to go into the city centre for that and it would have been an expensive taxi home because public transport stops running early - not to mention the fact that admission here is free more often than not, or €15 at most if charged for.

I would never contemplate returning other than for brief visits to see the family.


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## baldilocks

The answer to the OP is "It all depends" Depends on What?

Getting more for your money? on the whole the answer is Yes.
Healthcare? In general the answer is Yes
Feeling safe and comfortable where you live? In general, the answer is Yes but it depends on where you live, just as in the UK
Getting around? Unless you are in a large conurbation, buses only run when they are required (for school, work, maybe one or two shoppers' buses a week) Trains are clean and efficient but again run when they are needed (much of Spain is only served by single line railway so this limits frequency and sometimes long delays can occur. one needs to bear in mind that Spain is quite a large country and it can sometimes be better to fly.) Unless you are in or near cities or large towns, driving can be a pleasure with much less traffic on the roads, however, one can get stuck behind tractors or other slow moving vehicles on single carriageway roads.

Much depends on what you are looking for.

As a family, we are very happy with our lives in Spain and see absolutely no reason to move elsewhere either within Spain or outside.


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## Lynn R

Oh, and I wouldn't want to go back to having to accommodate 3 large wheelie bins on my property although the general household waste only got taken away once a fortnight (my family now have to have a "slops" bin as well, into which food waste has to be put - unwrapped - and the liner bags are only taken away once a month). I find that absolutely disgusting.


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## Maureen47

We have only been here just over a week , we are settled in our home with 2 dogs , we have been to vets with one of them poorly , we have signed on the padron , got our car through its ITV and I have to say we are loving life. We dont have to work and are financially sound and I guess that makes a massive difference as it allows you to enjoy all that Spain offers. We have folks really helpful so far an not had too much difficulty getting things done, I think we are going to love it here !


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## Rabbitcat

What might also help you settle in is to host someone .

Maybe someone poor, someone who would love to live out there say for 6 months rent free- just so you settle


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## mrypg9

Whether life is 'better' or not is an unanswerable question as it depends on so many variables.
If I were filthy rich, lived in a Mayfair penthouse and could escape to the sun whenever I felt like it as opposed to living on limited means on the fifteenth floor of a Benidorm towerblock, I 'd choose the UK.
No- one can answer this question, only the OP him/herself and only then after having experienced life in both countries as a basis for comparison.
It's another question similar to 'Where should I live in Spain?' or 'How much will it cost to live in Spain?'
Questions with a million or more answers.


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## seasideman

*canary islands*



Hepa said:


> It is certainly a better, warmer, less costly, life here in the Canary Islands



This is not the first time I have heard this. Someone mentioned to me that the Canary Islands is much cheaper than living in mainland Spain, but when I did my research on this all the articles said different. Would love to know your experience


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## 90199

seasideman said:


> This is not the first time I have heard this. Someone mentioned to me that the Canary Islands is much cheaper than living in mainland Spain, but when I did my research on this all the articles said different. Would love to know your experience


Purchase tax here is only 7%, that makes most commodities cheaper when comparing prices with European countries. Petrol diesel less than 90 cents a litre. 

The climate is more temperate, no hot summers or cold winters, no air conditioning or heating needed. Electricity is less than 2€ a day.

Fruit & Veg, wine beer rum and gin, pork beef lamb goat rabbit and poultry, most are produced locally, most fish is caught locally here. However we do import potatoes from Essex, ours won't be ready yet, first crop at Christmas. Seed potatoes are imported from Scotland. Potato imports from Spain are banned here.

Transport, we get up to 70% discount on flights and ferries throughout Spanish territories.

Most building materials including paint are manufactured here.

Property is probably dearer here, especially when comparing with the northern part of Iberian Spain

Why not visit and see for yourself, tourism is year round.


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## seasideman

el romeral said:


> If you took away the better weather in Spain and how that changes the way you are able to live and your lifestyle then it is a no brainer. Britain is better in pretty much every area. How many of us would put up with all the stuff that goes on here if it were not for the sun factor?


would love to hear more on this. It is nice that someone has a different opinion who has experienced spain


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## baldilocks

seasideman said:


> *would love to hear more on this*. It is nice that someone has a different opinion who has experienced spain


So would the rest of us.

Occasionally we get somebody who, because he or she came here without looking at all the facts, made a lot of wrong choices and then starts to rubbish Spain as if it is Spain's fault that he or she made a mistake.


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## jojo

Spain is a harsh country to live in. Its okay when you have money and security, but its not exactly the nanny state - which is quite a contrast from the UK

Jo xxx


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## seasideman

Hepa said:


> Purchase tax here is only 7%, that makes most commodities cheaper when comparing prices with European countries. Petrol diesel less than 90 cents a litre.
> 
> The climate is more temperate, no hot summers or cold winters, no air conditioning or heating needed. Electricity is less than 2€ a day.
> 
> Fruit & Veg, wine beer rum and gin, pork beef lamb goat rabbit and poultry, most are produced locally, most fish is caught locally here. However we do import potatoes from Essex, ours won't be ready yet, first crop at Christmas. Seed potatoes are imported from Scotland. Potato imports from Spain are banned here.
> 
> Transport, we get up to 70% discount on flights and ferries throughout Spanish territories.
> 
> Most building materials including paint are manufactured here.
> 
> Property is probably dearer here, especially when comparing with the northern part of Iberian Spain
> 
> Why not visit and see for yourself, tourism is year round.


I have been a number of times but when you go on holiday you don't really pay any attention to the prices. We are moving to Albir in August. I have family who live in Tenerife, but not a place I have thought about moving to


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## mrypg9

seasideman said:


> would love to hear more on this. It is nice that someone has a different opinion who has experienced spain


I wouldn't expect the million or so British immigrants here to all have the same opinions about life.
Everyone's views will be coloured by their experiences, understandably so, even if some people are negatively and excessively influenced by things others might view as trivial.
There is surely no country on earth where there is nothing that can be criticised. I enjoy life here, that's true, but Spain is just a country comme les autres, not Paradise. It has beautiful scenery, so do many other countries in Europe. Friendly people, ditto. If you are looking for 'cheap', there's Albania or Bulgaria.
There isno 'Spanish dream'. That phrase sounds like something an estate agent thought up. But neither is there a Spanish nightmare, not for most of us. The truth lies, as it usually does, between two extremes and you will not stumble on it second- hand through someone else's opinions and experiences.
You just have to suck it and see, as the saying goes.


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## 90199

seasideman said:


> I have been a number of times but when you go on holiday you don't really pay any attention to the prices. We are moving to Albir in August. I have family who live in Tenerife, but not a place I have thought about moving to


Me neither, especially the south


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## jimenato

mrypg9 said:


> I wouldn't expect the million or so British immigrants here to all have the same opinions about life.
> Everyone's views will be coloured by their experiences, understandably so, even if some people are negatively and excessively influenced by things others might view as trivial.
> There is surely no country on earth where there is nothing that can be criticised. I enjoy life here, that's true, but Spain is just a country comme les autres, not Paradise. It has beautiful scenery, so do many other countries in Europe. Friendly people, ditto. If you are looking for 'cheap', there's Albania or Bulgaria.
> There isno 'Spanish dream'. That phrase sounds like something an estate agent thought up. But neither is there a Spanish nightmare, not for most of us. The truth lies, as it usually does, between two extremes and you will not stumble on it second- hand through someone else's opinions and experiences.
> You just have to suck it and see, as the saying goes.


Agree. 

'The Truth' doesn't exist - or rather there are many truths - as many as people who have opinions and experiences. 

One man's meat etc...


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## baldilocks

jojo said:


> *Spain is a harsh country to live in*. Its okay when you have money and security, but its not exactly the nanny state - which is quite a contrast from the UK
> 
> Jo xxx


"Harsh" is, I think, the wrong word. "Unforgiving" would be better. there are no safety nets. If you need to work, the unemployment rate is high even among the natives who speak the language fluently, there are no comforting social security payments if you fall on hard times. If the job you got at the beginning of the tourist season, goes and disappears into thin air with the tourists at the end of the season, there is no unemployment benefit until you have contributed to the system for a period of time and many of those seasonal jobs are off contract (i.e. on the black)so you won't have paid anything into the Soc Sec pot.

Many people who fail and have to crawl back to UK are those who didn't fully consider the options, the requirements, the potential pitfalls and all that moving to another country involved. 

For example, there are those who move with children without fully considering *their* needs especially if they are either teenagers or close to that age - education, unless they are in a private school (expensive) will be almost all in Spanish which is difficult unless they are fairly fluent. 

The romantic notion that many teenagers get when they are on holiday about Spanish waiters/resses etc. do not last well once they are in the real world and when living here they see the charm is turned on to any attractive member of the opposite sex and as hollow as Drake's Drum and the novelty of a beau or belle of another nationality can fall flat when reality strikes. All of it leading to heartbreak and hatred of the country to which they have been dragged by inconsiderate parents.


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## jojo

baldilocks said:


> "Harsh" is, I think, the wrong word. "Unforgiving" would be better. there are no safety nets. If you need to work, the unemployment rate is high even among the natives who speak the language fluently, there are no comforting social security payments if you fall on hard times. If the job you got at the beginning of the tourist season, goes and disappears into thin air with the tourists at the end of the season, there is no unemployment benefit until you have contributed to the system for a period of time and many of those seasonal jobs are off contract (i.e. on the black)so you won't have paid anything into the Soc Sec pot.
> 
> Many people who fail and have to crawl back to UK are those who didn't fully consider the options, the requirements, the potential pitfalls and all that moving to another country involved.
> 
> For example, there are those who move with children without fully considering *their* needs especially if they are either teenagers or close to that age - education, unless they are in a private school (expensive) will be almost all in Spanish which is difficult unless they are fairly fluent.
> 
> The romantic notion that many teenagers get when they are on holiday about Spanish waiters/resses etc. do not last well once they are in the real world and when living here they see the charm is turned on to any attractive member of the opposite sex and as hollow as Drake's Drum and the novelty of a beau or belle of another nationality can fall flat when reality strikes. All of it leading to heartbreak and hatred of the country to which they have been dragged by inconsiderate parents.



Exactly! Then there is the language, NHS, DSS understanding difficulties. Most folk know where they stand in the UK (and the ease of the benefit system) but it isnt the same in Spain and it isnt easy to understand or to find out when you dont understand the language.

Its well documented that my daughter hated Spain - mainly because she missed her friends in the UK, but also, for whatever reason, she felt Spain was "primitive" - and hot, dusty, smelly, full of creepy crawlies........and we all know how a teenager can affect the household lol. Although there were many unforeseeable reasons we returned to the UK, she certainly didnt help!!!! I'm sure others have found and will find the same.

I still believe the legacy of the past is what drives alot of people to think that living in Spain will be the dream - move over, buying a cheap house, doing a bit of work here and there, sitting around the pool in the sun, cheap cost of living - not thinking about tax, healthcare. Just easy living! It may have been like that once upon a time, but it isnt anymore

Jo xxx


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## Rabbitcat

But if you had a few quid and didn't need to work it could STILL be like that


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## baldilocks

Rabbitcat said:


> But if you had a few quid and didn't need to work it could STILL be like that


Or a pension/pensions on which, because your needs aren't great, you can live in reasonable comfort. That means you don't eat out very often (indeed why should you when you live at the best restaurant in town? - the m-i-l's words), you don't drink other than perhaps the odd glass of sherry or wine, you don't smoke and are generally content to be at home and enjoy what is all around you.


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> That means you don't eat out very often (indeed why should you when you live at the best restaurant in town? -


I like to go out to eat in good restaurants, always have done, because

I like a change of scenery
I like to dress up now and then
It's a good way to enjoy an evening with friends
I can enjoy eating things I might not have experienced before
I don't want to be in my house 24/7, nice as it is
I don't have to cook, I just enjoy the food
Sandra is an excellent cook, I'm not, but I do the cooking as she does the cleaning which I am not good at
I am not a good cook
I don't have to shop for the ingredients
When I've finished eating, someone else does the washing up...


And now I have to get ready, we're out with a friend dining at our favourite Estepona restaurant


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## Williams2

I'm sure the original poster would like to see a reply from a Northern Expat, from the fresh and
breezy side of Spain, namely Asturias - as opposed to all those 'Southerners, down south'

First of all - yes your right - there is a north / south divide in Spain, just like there is
in England and the 'nothing north of Watford Gap' mentality, tends to repeat itself
here.
So I'm sure you would like to hear what life's like in Asturias.

First of all it's much cheaper than southern Spain, the Costa's, Andalucia, etc. so Euro
for Euro, your money goes further in Asturias.
Second for those Brits who love the Spanish scene but would rather have a climate 
that's similar to England, then look no further than Asturias and the Cantabrian
coast. Yes those fresh green pastures can be found here - just like the ones you left
behind in England and what's more, you can save yourself a small fortune in air
conditioning costs.
So no excruciating heatwave and high humidity to put up with during the summer
months.


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## baldilocks

Williams2 said:


> I'm sure the original poster would like to see a reply from a Northern Expat, from the fresh and
> breezy side of Spain, namely Asturias - as opposed to all those 'Southerners, down south'
> 
> First of all - yes your right - there is a north / south divide in Spain, just like there is
> in England and the 'nothing north of Watford Gap' mentality tends to repeat itself
> in Spain.
> So I'm sure you would like to hear what life's like in Asturias.
> 
> First of all it's much cheaper than southern Spain, the Costa's, Andalucia, etc. so Euro
> for Euro, your money goes further in Asturias.
> Second for those Brits who love the Spanish scene but would rather have a climate
> that's similar to England, then look no further than Asturias and the Cantabrian
> coast. Yes those fresh green pastures can be found here - just like the ones you left
> behind in England and what's more, you can save yourself a small fortune in air
> conditioning costs.
> So no excruciating heatwave and high humidity to put up with during the summer
> months, as I've mentioned before, many times on this forum.


To offset that you get all the Atlantic storms, howling gales straight off the Bay of Biscay and rain that goes horizontal rather than falling.


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## Williams2

baldilocks said:


> To offset that you get all the Atlantic storms, howling gales straight off the Bay of Biscay and rain that goes horizontal rather than falling.


For Surfers that's music to their ears, thanks for reminding me.
As for the rain, it's no more than you find in Tenby, honest !!


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## baldilocks

Williams2 said:


> For Surfers that's music to their ears, thanks for reminding me.
> As for the rain, it's no more than you find in Tenby, honest !!


I used to live in Trawsfynydd behind Harlech and when it used to whip across the lake like horizontal stair-rods, i swore that it used to drive right into the walls.


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## Williams2

baldilocks said:


> I used to live in Trawsfynydd behind Harlech and when it used to whip across the lake like horizontal stair-rods, i swore that it used to drive right into the walls.


Well never seen that sort of weather in Asturias and I've been here for years.
Yes we get rainy days & windy days but mostly during the winter months,
like anywhere else but over the summer. Nothing like that !!

Looks like another southern myth to me.


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## Roy C

mrypg9 said:


> I like to go out to eat in good restaurants, always have done, because
> 
> I like a change of scenery
> I like to dress up now and then
> It's a good way to enjoy an evening with friends
> I can enjoy eating things I might not have experienced before
> I don't want to be in my house 24/7, nice as it is
> I don't have to cook, I just enjoy the food
> Sandra is an excellent cook, I'm not, but I do the cooking as she does the cleaning which I am not good at
> I am not a good cook
> I don't have to shop for the ingredients
> When I've finished eating, someone else does the washing up...
> 
> 
> And now I have to get ready, we're out with a friend dining at our favourite Estepona restaurant


Mary have you been here, it's very good imo. 
Homepage


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## mrypg9

Roy C said:


> Mary have you been here, it's very good imo.
> Homepage


Hi Roy,no, haven't been there yet....but looks worth a visit.
Just back from dinner at La Rada Estepona...steamed mussels in white wine, croquettes, aubergines with honey, turbot, abadejo, boquerones and a bottle of alborino...
With dessert and coffee, for three, came to under 40€ a head with good tip. Not too cold to eat outside.
Walked through town, had another coffee, stroll along the paseo maritimo and home...


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> Just back from dinner at La Rada Estepona...steamed mussels in white wine, croquettes, aubergines with honey, turbot, abadejo, boquerones and a bottle of alborino...


Are you sure, it sounds a bit fishy to me!


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## amespana

Great value menu del dia at La Rada as well.


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## mrypg9

amespana said:


> Great value menu del dia at La Rada as well.


Yes, we had lunch there a fortnight ago...12.50 euros, I think it was. We ate outside last night, they had one of those big patio heaters...but the town was very quiet. Not many people to watch whilst eating...


----------



## Horlics

baldilocks said:


> "Harsh" is, I think, the wrong word. "Unforgiving" would be better.


The problem with living in the UK and its nanny state is paying for it. I am all for a bit of social conscience and I am happy there is a welfare state to support those in genuine need, but it has gone too far. I heard the remarkable statistic recently that one in three working people is on some kind of benefit from the state. How on earth did we allow that situation to arise.

And sadly, now that austerity is here, we're being sold the line that it was years of overspending that got us there. That may be true but the fact is we could have halved the national debt overnight had we thrown at it the amount of money spent rescuing banks. Out of work hard up families are not the problem, it was a massive supply of cheap cash to be spent irresponsibly that caused the problems, in the UK and Spain, with the result that so many need that safety net.

We're now left with the situation that Spain offers good low cost living for those who can afford what cost there is, but there is a whole load of risk if the austerity programme being followed across Europe doesn't provide the fix it aims to. Right now, if you have the money and don't need to work, it offers a fantastic quality of life.


----------



## baldilocks

Another positive that came to mind today is Car Insurance. It may be a little more expensive here but the service you get is way ahead of what we had in UK.

Two lady friends were out today and their car broke down. They telephoned their insurance company which sent a grua to collect the car, but since it was Sunday and the garage that deals with their car was closed the grua company would keep it under lock and key until tomorrow when they will take it to the garage. They then took them to the service station on the main road where they could get a cup of coffee etc and the grua contacted the insurance company who then arranged for a taxi (paid for by the insurance) to take them home (they live in a tiny hamlet up in the mountains.)


----------



## Gazeebo

Hepa said:


> Purchase tax here is only 7%, that makes most commodities cheaper when comparing prices with European countries. Petrol diesel less than 90 cents a litre.
> 
> The climate is more temperate, no hot summers or cold winters, no air conditioning or heating needed. Electricity is less than 2€ a day.
> 
> Fruit & Veg, wine beer rum and gin, pork beef lamb goat rabbit and poultry, most are produced locally, most fish is caught locally here. However we do import potatoes from Essex, ours won't be ready yet, first crop at Christmas. Seed potatoes are imported from Scotland. Potato imports from Spain are banned here.
> 
> Transport, we get up to 70% discount on flights and ferries throughout Spanish territories.
> 
> Most building materials including paint are manufactured here.
> 
> Property is probably dearer here, especially when comparing with the northern part of Iberian Spain
> 
> Why not visit and see for yourself, tourism is year round.





Can you tell me why?

Potato imports from Spain are banned here.


----------



## jimenato

Horlics said:


> The problem with living in the UK and its nanny state is paying for it.
> ...


I don't see much of a problem paying for it. It is paid for through tax and taxes are generally lower in the UK than in Spain.


----------



## baldilocks

jimenato said:


> I don't see much of a problem paying for it. It is paid for through tax and* taxes are generally lower in the UK than in Spain*.


But are they? UK Car tax is astronomical but quite reasonable here. Prescription charges in the UK are £8.20 per item which is more than I pay in Euros as a pensioner per month and I have something like 12 different meds. and if I was having to pay as a non pensioner, it would be capped at around 18€. Fuel tax in the UK is high, even more so on diesel (I currently pay 1.08€ per litre of diesel and about the same in pounds in UK so in UK it is 1.42 times the price in Spain. Ok income tax in Spain is a bit higher but you get allowances here that you don't in UK such as if caring for an elderly relative. I can't remember if you can file jointly in UK, which you can in Spain.


----------



## jimenato

baldilocks said:


> But are they? UK Car tax is astronomical but quite reasonable here. Prescription charges in the UK are £8.20 per item which is more than I pay in Euros as a pensioner per month and I have something like 12 different meds. and if I was having to pay as a non pensioner, it would be capped at around 18€. Fuel tax in the UK is high, even more so on diesel (I currently pay 1.08€ per litre of diesel and about the same in pounds in UK so in UK it is 1.42 times the price in Spain. Ok income tax in Spain is a bit higher but you get allowances here that you don't in UK such as if caring for an elderly relative. I can't remember if you can file jointly in UK, which you can in Spain.


VAT in Spain 21%, in UK 20% (and, unlike Spain, zero on food, printed material and children's clothes)

Corporation tax Spain 28%, UK 20% 

My last car Tax in Spain 70 Euros. My UK car tax £30 (would be zero if my car were three year's newer). 

88% of prescriptions in the UK are free (including for all those over age 60).

Personal tax allowance UK £10,500 per person, Spain 5151 Euros.

Self-employed stamp... lets's not go there.

There's really no competition is there? And yet, unlike Spain, the UK still manages to fund a comprehensive welfare state.


----------



## Lynn R

jimenato said:


> VAT in Spain 21%, in UK 20% (and, unlike Spain, zero on food, printed material and children's clothes)
> 
> Corporation tax Spain 28%, UK 20%
> 
> My last car Tax in Spain 70 Euros. My UK car tax £30 (would be zero if my car were three year's newer).
> 
> 88% of prescriptions in the UK are free (including for all those over age 60).
> 
> Personal tax allowance UK £10,500 per person, Spain 5151 Euros.
> 
> Self-employed stamp... lets's not go there.
> 
> There's really no competition is there? And yet, unlike Spain, the UK still manages to fund a comprehensive welfare state.


I said very early on in this thread that we now pay more tax in Spain than we would on the same income, but if we are drawiing comparisons at least let us be accurate and give the whole picture, not just part of it

For example - starting rate of income tax (UK 20%, Spain now 19% - wef July 2015) and Rajoy has just given an election pledge that if the PP are re-elected it will be lowered again to 17%. However that's a very big if, and there was no timescale attached to it.

Personal allowances - you left out rather a lot by stating only the basic Spanish personal tax allowance and leaving out the €2,000 additional allowance against earned income (which includes pensions), the higher allowances for the over 65s and over 75s, the additional allowances for those on low incomes and all the additional allowances for children and disabled people.

Spanish income tax rates 2015

As food is zero rated for VAT in the UK, there should be no reason then why most things are still more expensive than they are in Spain, but they are. Prompted by this thread, I did a bit of online comparison shopping the other day comparing prices in ASDA where I used to shop with Mercadona. A litre of longlife milk, for example, is 90p in ASDA but €0.60 in Spain. Chicken, pork, fish, shellfish, most fruit and vegetables, pasta, rice, all considerably more expensive in the UK. The only thing I found on my regular shopping list that was cheaper was a tin of plum tomatoes.


----------



## Chopera

Lynn R said:


> ...
> For example - starting rate of income tax (UK 20%, Spain now 19% - wef July 2015) and Rajoy has just given an election pledge that if the PP are re-elected it will be lowered again to 17%. However that's a very big if, and there was no timescale attached to it.
> ...


To give a more complete picture still, the starting rate of income tax in the UK is zero for the first €15K, whereas in Spain it is 19% for the first €12.450, after which I believe it goes up to 24% as of next year.


----------



## Lynn R

Chopera said:


> To give a more complete picture still, the starting rate of income tax in the UK is zero for the first €15K, whereas in Spain it is 19% for the first €12.450, after which I believe it goes up to 24% as of next year.


Eh? You don't pay zero tax on the first €15k of income in the UK after the personal allowances have been taken into account. The 19% in Spain for the first €12,450 means it's that rate on the first €12,450 of taxable income, after the personal allowances.


----------



## Chopera

Lynn R said:


> Eh? You don't pay zero tax on the first €15k of income in the UK after the personal allowances have been taken into account. The 19% in Spain for the first €12,450 means it's that rate on the first €12,450 of taxable income, after the personal allowances.


It's the personal allowance that makes the difference. €15k is the personal allowance in the UK, so you don't pay any tax on the first €15k income. In Spain the allowance is much less, something like €5k, before you start paying income tax (I didn't make that clear in my post). So the income tax thresholds in Spain come in at much lower incomes.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> I said very early on in this thread that we now pay more tax in Spain than we would on the same income, but if we are drawiing comparisons at least let us be accurate and give the whole picture, not just part of it
> 
> For example - starting rate of income tax (UK 20%, Spain now 19% - wef July 2015) and Rajoy has just given an election pledge that if the PP are re-elected it will be lowered again to 17%. However that's a very big if, and there was no timescale attached to it.
> 
> Personal allowances - you left out rather a lot by stating only the basic Spanish personal tax allowance and leaving out the €2,000 additional allowance against earned income (which includes pensions), the higher allowances for the over 65s and over 75s, the additional allowances for those on low incomes and all the additional allowances for children and disabled people.
> 
> Spanish income tax rates 2015
> 
> As food is zero rated for VAT in the UK, there should be no reason then why most things are still more expensive than they are in Spain, but they are. Prompted by this thread, I did a bit of online comparison shopping the other day comparing prices in ASDA where I used to shop with Mercadona. A litre of longlife milk, for example, is 90p in ASDA but €0.60 in Spain. Chicken, pork, fish, shellfish, most fruit and vegetables, pasta, rice, all considerably more expensive in the UK. The only thing I found on my regular shopping list that was cheaper was a tin of plum tomatoes.


I rememebr the tinned tomato phenomen from another thread a while ago.
It seems strange when so many toms are grown in Spain.


----------



## Lynn R

Chopera said:


> It's the personal allowance that makes the difference. €15k is the personal allowance in the UK, so you don't pay any tax on the first €15k income. In Spain the allowance is much less, something like €5k, before you start paying income tax (I didn't make that clear in my post). So the income tax thresholds in Spain come in at much lower incomes.


You haven't read the link in my post. There are a number of other allowances besides the basic personal allowance of €5151 in Spain, and additional €2,000 for earned income (including pensions) for a start. People aged over 65 and over 75 get a higher personal allowance. Anyone with children gets additional tax allowances for each child. There are additional personal allowances for disabled people. There is also an additional allowance for people on very low incomes. 

Therefore, it is too simplistic, and wrong, to say that you can only earn something like €5k before you start paying income tax in Spain. Yes, people in the UK pay less income tax on the same level of income, but the gap is not so big as it was made to appear in Jimenato's post


----------



## Lynn R

Pesky Wesky said:


> I rememebr the tinned tomato phenomen from another thread a while ago.
> It seems strange when so many toms are grown in Spain.


I know, it's weird, but a 400g tin was 35p in ASDA but €0.60 in Mercadona. Perhaps it's what they call a loss leader.
Free range eggs, supermarket pizzas, and butter were other things which are cheaper here, btw - in spite of beiing zero rated for VAT in the UK.

It's a bit like property prices, really. Yes, we pay a lot more tax on buying and selling a house here in Spain. But if your total outlay on buying a house, including the taxes, is half the amount in Spain that you would pay for a comparable size house in the UK, does that matter?


----------



## Rabbitcat

Lynn is there any one off product that is ridiculously expensive in the weekly shop? 

You mention tomatoes being a bit dearer but for example in Turkey Colmans mustard is ultra dear- around £6 for small jar


----------



## Chopera

Lynn R said:


> You haven't read the link in my post. There are a number of other allowances besides the basic personal allowance of €5151 in Spain, and additional €2,000 for earned income (including pensions) for a start. People aged over 65 and over 75 get a higher personal allowance. Anyone with children gets additional tax allowances for each child. There are additional personal allowances for disabled people. There is also an additional allowance for people on very low incomes.
> 
> Therefore, it is too simplistic, and wrong, to say that you can only earn something like €5k before you start paying income tax in Spain. Yes, people in the UK pay less income tax on the same level of income, but the gap is not so big as it was made to appear in Jimenato's post


Of course a complete comparison is going to be complicated. If you want to include tax breaks in Spain for having children then you should also include tax credits in the UK (which don't exist in Spain). Same for disabilities, etc. I'm pretty sure you'll struggle to make the various allowances in Spain add up to those in the UK. Which is what you'd expect to an extent because the UK has higher incomes in general.


----------



## jimenato

Lynn R said:


> I said very early on in this thread that we now pay more tax in Spain than we would on the same income, but if we are drawiing comparisons at least let us be accurate and give the whole picture, not just part of it
> 
> For example - starting rate of income tax (UK 20%, Spain now 19% - wef July 2015) and Rajoy has just given an election pledge that if the PP are re-elected it will be lowered again to 17%. However that's a very big if, and there was no timescale attached to it.
> 
> Personal allowances - you left out rather a lot by stating only the basic Spanish personal tax allowance and leaving out the €2,000 additional allowance against earned income (which includes pensions), the higher allowances for the over 65s and over 75s, the additional allowances for those on low incomes and all the additional allowances for children and disabled people.
> 
> Spanish income tax rates 2015
> 
> As food is zero rated for VAT in the UK, there should be no reason then why most things are still more expensive than they are in Spain, but they are. Prompted by this thread, I did a bit of online comparison shopping the other day comparing prices in ASDA where I used to shop with Mercadona. A litre of longlife milk, for example, is 90p in ASDA but €0.60 in Spain. Chicken, pork, fish, shellfish, most fruit and vegetables, pasta, rice, all considerably more expensive in the UK. The only thing I found on my regular shopping list that was cheaper was a tin of plum tomatoes.


I think that I have demonstrated what I said which was that in general taxes are lower in the UK than Spain. I claim no more than that - I was only saying that the seemingly generous benefits aren't actually that burdensome, so the price comparisons (which as you point out are not down to higher taxation anyway) aren't actually relevant. 

Although if you are going to do that you should compare fairly. In the UK people drink fresh milk - not long-life. 

Asda's fresh milk is cheaper than Mercadona's long-life.


----------



## Rabbitcat

Ah but council tax jimenato.........game set match Spain


----------



## Lynn R

Rabbitcat said:


> Lynn is there any one off product that is ridiculously expensive in the weekly shop?
> 
> You mention tomatoes being a bit dearer but for example in Turkey Colmans mustard is ultra dear- around £6 for small jar


Some things (like Heinz baked beans, for instance which cost 75p for a 400g tin at ASDA and €0.95 in Mercadona, or Kelloggs Cornflakes) are no more expensive here. But generally speaking you can only find imported items like brown sauce, Branston pickle, ready to use curry sauces, Oxo cubes etc. in the small British owned grocery stores in most areas and they are very much more expensive than in the UK. Not as much as six pounds for a jar of Colman's mustard though, I think it is less than €4 here but I hate the stuff so couldn't really tell you. There are Iceland stores in a few places where there is a very big British population (Fuengirola is one) where they are cheaper, but I either go on a cheap coach trip to Gibraltar (€11 return with a local social group) occasionally to stock up at Morrison's store there, or buy things to bring back when I go to the UK twice a year.


----------



## Lynn R

jimenato said:


> Although if you are going to do that you should compare fairly. In the UK people drink fresh milk - not long-life.


Well I never did, so I am comparing like for like what I actually buy.


----------



## Lynn R

Chopera said:


> . I'm pretty sure you'll struggle to make the various allowances in Spain add up to those in the UK. Which is what you'd expect to an extent because the UK has higher incomes in general.


I never said they did, in fact I've said twice previously in this thread that income tax is higher in Spain than it is in the UK - so that's 3 times now

It would be misleading people who are trying to find out how much tax they'd have to pay in Spain, though, to make it appear that the only personal allowance they would have here is €5151 when that's not the case.


----------



## Alcalaina

If we could just forget the price of tomatoes for a moment and get back to the point of the comparison - i.e. why Spain has less tax revenue to spend on welfare?

I would imagine it's because (a) wages are around 30% lower and (b) at least half the working population are either unemployed or working on the black. Also it's possible that many businesses have their tax base elsewhere because the corporation tax in Spain is so high (35%).

Duty on tobacco, alcohol and fuel is also considerably lower in Spain.


----------



## Lynn R

jimenato said:


> In the UK people drink fresh milk - not long-life.


If people in the UK don't drink long life milk, how come there's so much of it on the supermarket shelves? Is it just there for decoration or what?


----------



## Chopera

Rabbitcat said:


> Ah but council tax jimenato.........game set match Spain


unless you buy a property - when you'll find yourself paying between 6 and 10% of the property's "value" to the council.


----------



## Chopera

Lynn R said:


> If people in the UK don't drink long life milk, how come there's so much of it on the supermarket shelves? Is it just there for decoration or what?


I haven't been to a UK supermarket for several years, but from memory there's far less long life milk for sale than in Spain, where you can find complete aisles dedicated to the stuff. In fact I rarely see Spanish people buy or drink fresh milk at all.


----------



## Lynn R

Alcalaina said:


> If we could just forget the price of tomatoes for a moment and get back to the point of the comparison - i.e. why Spain has less tax revenue to spend on welfare?
> 
> I would imagine it's because (a) wages are around 30% lower and (b) at least half the working population are either unemployed or working on the black.
> 
> Duty on tobacco, alcohol and fuel is also considerably lower in Spain.


But is it the case that Spain has less tax revenue to spend on welfare, or that it doesn't WANT to spend more on welfare?

In Spain, people who earn more and therefore pay more in tax and social security receive more, if they become unemployed, because benefits are paid as a percentage of their former earnings, although of course that is time limited. Likewise, people who pay higher social security contributions get higher state pensions. 

Spain is much less generous to the long term unemployed. Therefore, if there is work to be had in Spain, people are desperate to take it rather than sit at home drawing benefits. I don't think Spain necessarily wants to move away from that situation.


----------



## Alcalaina

I never bought long-life milk in the UK and I never buy fresh milk here. I wouldn't even know where to look - you certainly can't get it in the village (though fresh goat's milk is available on request!) To be honest I can't tell the difference now.


----------



## Alcalaina

Lynn R said:


> But is it the case that Spain has less tax revenue to spend on welfare, or that it doesn't WANT to spend more on welfare?
> 
> In Spain, people who earn more and therefore pay more in tax and social security receive more, if they become unemployed, because benefits are paid as a percentage of their former earnings, although of course that is time limited. Likewise, people who pay higher social security contributions get higher state pensions.
> 
> Spain is much less generous to the long term unemployed. Therefore, if there is work to be had in Spain, people are desperate to take it rather than sit at home drawing benefits. I don't think Spain necessarily wants to move away from that situation.


They would (at least the PSOE would) spend more on health, education and social care if there were money available. The Ley de Dependencia for example - there simply isn't enough money to give this benefit to everyone who has been assessed as eligible. But yes, unemployment benefit is dire. Nevertheless the UK is doing its best to level the playing field between the two countries.


----------



## baldilocks

Originally Posted by jimenato View Post
In the UK people drink fresh milk - not long-life. 

Because a lot long-life milk in UK comes from France and it tastes foul. Long-life milk in Spain doesn't taste too bad and, in any case much of the fresh milk available in Spain has to come all the way from Asturias because cows aren't kept on the land down south because the long hot dry periods would destroy the grass - no food for cows = no milk.



Chopera said:


> unless you buy a property - when you'll find yourself paying between 6 and 10% of the property's "value" to the council.


Our house €85k council tax €142. Don't know where you went to school, but they obviously weren't big on maths.


----------



## Alcalaina

baldilocks said:


> Our house €85k council tax €142. Don't know where you went to school, but they obviously weren't big on maths.


I think Chopera was referring to the tax you pay when you buy a property - I think ours was 7% of the (declared) value. I didn't think it went to the Ayuntamiento though.

EDIT - it goes to the autonomous community, not the town hall.
Impuesto de transmisiones patrimoniales - ITP


----------



## Lynn R

Alcalaina said:


> I think Chopera was referring to the tax you pay when you buy a property - I think ours was 7% of the (declared) value. I didn't think it went to the Ayuntamiento though.
> 
> EDIT - it goes to the autonomous community, not the town hall.
> Transfer tax on resale homes - Impuesto de Transmisiones Patrimoniales (ITP) - Spanish Property Insight


What matters most to me is the total outlay on a house, taxes included.

What kind of house can you buy in a pretty village in the UK for €93,500 (what Baldilocks paid for his including the transfer tax and legal costs?).

I have a house here that's about twice the size of the one I sold in the UK, but it still cost me quite a bit less even after the taxes and other costs. The Council Tax on my old (Band A) house is 1053 pounds this year. The full IBI bill on my much larger Spanish house is €570 but I only actually pay €328 as I get a good discount.


----------



## jimenato

Lynn R said:


> If people in the UK don't drink long life milk, how come there's so much of it on the supermarket shelves? Is it just there for decoration or what?


In the UK you will find entire aisles of various kinds of fresh milk and just a few feet of shelf space for UHT - the mirror image of Spain - if you can actually find any fresh milk. We bought a litre of UHT a year ago in case of emergency and we still have it - I suspect that's true of most households. 

Anyway, Claire's right - it's OT.

I suspect that the UK has more tax money to play with for various reasons - higher wages, far fewer unemployed and those who are employed and self employed actually pay their taxes. My original point which was in answer to someone else was only that the generous UK benefits are obviously not a huge problem to pay as taxes are at least no higher than  Spain's.

Edit: sorry not OT at all - I had lost sight of what the topic actually was.


----------



## jimenato

Rabbitcat said:


> Ah but council tax jimenato.........game set match Spain


Inheritance tax - back to you.:boxing:


----------



## Rabbitcat

Just don't die!


----------



## baldilocks

jimenato said:


> Inheritance tax - back to you.:boxing:


What's the problem with IHT? Here in Andalucía it is tax free between spouses.

If you pay IHT in UK you have to be fairly rich anyway.


----------



## Maureen47

Lynn R said:


> What matters most to me is the total outlay on a house, taxes included.
> 
> What kind of house can you buy in a pretty village in the UK for €93,500 (what Baldilocks paid for his including the transfer tax and legal costs?).
> 
> I have a house here that's about twice the size of the one I sold in the UK, but it still cost me quite a bit less even after the taxes and other costs. The Council Tax on my old (Band A) house is 1053 pounds this year. The full IBI bill on my much larger Spanish house is €570 but I only actually pay €328 as I get a good discount.


Have to agree Lynn , I didnt think we would get the type of house we have in Spain in our budget and the living costs are certainly less, our UK property was Band D so a massive difference here in Spain. Food bills are so much less if you are happy to use local ingredients and cook from scratch which I enjoy. A property like our Spanish home in the UK we would never be able to afford. There are pro's and con's but for me all positive so far .


----------



## Lynn R

baldilocks said:


> What's the problem with IHT? Here in Andalucía it is tax free between spouses.


Well, no it isn't - or only up to certain limits. A spouse or child can inherit up to €175,000 free of IHT in Andalucia providing their existing personal wealth is less than about €400k), plus there is an exemption for the family home if the share inherited is worth less than €122,000, but you have to retain the property for at least 10 years. Not the same as inheritance being tax free between spouses.

I would rather feel better off whilst I'm alive than worry about somebody else having to pay tax on what I leave them after I'm dead. Whatever they get after tax will be 100% more than I'd get if any of them died!


----------



## thrax

I had no idea there were places in Spain where you couldn't buy fresh milk. We have loads down here and buy it all the time. Although UHT doesn't taste as bad here as it does in other countries but we rarely buy it.


----------



## smitty5668

thrax said:


> I had no idea there were places in Spain where you couldn't buy fresh milk. We have loads down here and buy it all the time. Although UHT doesn't taste as bad here as it does in other countries but we rarely buy it.


loads of places round us to buy fresh milk, anywhere from large supermarkets to local spar shop. much pricier than in uk though.


----------



## snikpoh

smitty5668 said:


> loads of places round us to buy fresh milk, anywhere from large supermarkets to local spar shop. much pricier than in uk though.


Where's "here" - your location says UK???


----------



## VFR

Well if you drive then Spain is far (very far) better than the UK.

If I want to drive to Santander or Cadiz I will not give the traffic situation a seconds thought & just drive.
In the UK it can (and does) often lead to despair as to why you even thought about leaving home in the first place.

For sure parking in Valencia city can be hard (or any other city) but not expensive should you have to pay for it. Anywhere else its not an issue if you use a bit of common sense & free.
Anywhere in the UK (I exaggerate a little) will be expensive & is odds on to make you cry if you overstay when big brother is watching.

Ok I accept that the car will cost more initially & lets face it is a pain to get it.
Still it *is cheaper* to have it serviced here & these days spares have come down in price quite a bit if you shop online.
For instance Dextros 2 oil for my car online from a place it Madrid was 26eu delivered, it is 39eu (ish) in most local outlets & this compares to the UK.
Tyre's are now the same price in Spain as in the UK (bye & large) and that shows how things have changed.


----------



## thrax

smitty5668 said:


> loads of places round us to buy fresh milk, anywhere from large supermarkets to local spar shop. much pricier than in uk though.


Yes it is more expensive but I did wonder if that has to do with paying farmers a fair price for milk unlike UK where they lose money on every litre sold??


----------



## smitty5668

snikpoh said:


> Where's "here" - your location says UK???


mazarron murcia, when i'm there.


----------



## Leper

If you want life to be better in Spain or anywhere else for that matter, it is up to you to make the effort and life will be better for you.

If you are not capable of making the effort, then . . .


----------



## WeeScottie

Agree with Leper, embrace the differences, be positive, life's a big adventure.


----------



## mrypg9

Leper said:


> If you want life to be better in Spain or anywhere else for that matter, it is up to you to make the effort and life will be better for you.
> 
> If you are not capable of making the effort, then . . .


I'm never sure what people mean by saying 'life is better' in Spain or, as you say, anywhere.
Better than what? Are people really so dissatisfied with life where they are living?
Is presumed wall- to- wall sunshine, cheap booze and **** all that's needed for a 'better' life?
My life isn't 'better' in Spain, it was good in the UK and Prague. It's different, that's all.
You are quite right, the quality of your life ultimately depends on how you live it day to day. Of course material circumstances matter but when push comes to shove contentment is surely about more than sun, sea and sangria.
If that was all needed for a 'better' life, there would be no unhappy Spaniards.


----------



## Horlics

Somebody bought me one of those activity tracker gadgets as a present. It tells me how active I am by counting steps. I can look back at the graphs of activity and can pin point my arrivals and departures from Spain, such is the contrast between there and the UK. I am 3 or 4 times more active in Spain than in the UK, and that is down to the weather and the surroundings. Not only is Spain cheaper - its climate encourages a more active lifestyle. What's not to like.


----------



## fcexpat

Horlics said:


> Somebody bought me one of those activity tracker gadgets as a present. It tells me how active I am by counting steps. I can look back at the graphs of activity and can pin point my arrivals and departures from Spain, such is the contrast between there and the UK. I am 3 or 4 times more active in Spain than in the UK, and that is down to the weather and the surroundings. Not only is Spain cheaper - its climate encourages a more active lifestyle. What's not to like.


We've been here a year now and had to buy smaller waist sizes. Says it all really !!


----------



## Portugal-or-Spain?

MonkeyHarris said:


> Hi
> 
> Thinking of moving to Spain to retire in a couple of years. So trying to do me research. The papers say it's no longer a bed of rose's. But from the people living the dream what do think? Does your pound go further? Is your standard of living better or worse than back in the UK?


The problem with the question is that most expat forumers are primarily going to say it is better, because they need to endorse their own decision. I would look carefully at the area, not least the property market conditions, and first rent; make sure you have got it right. Also, look into the wealth tax in Spain; make sure you are not going to be over the limit and end up paying tax on what you have. If you are over the limit, consider Portugal's Non Habitual Residency program; we actually live on the border, so we get the both of best "worlds".

But, in a generic response; Yes, Spain is much better than the UK, but then I really only know about Galicia.


----------



## jojo

Portugal-or-Spain? said:


> The problem with the question is that most expat forumers are primarily going to say it is better, because they need to endorse their own decision. I would look carefully at the area, not least the property market conditions, and first rent; make sure you have got it right. Also, look into the wealth tax in Spain; make sure you are not going to be over the limit and end up paying tax on what you have. If you are over the limit, consider Portugal's Non Habitual Residency program; we actually live on the border, so we get the both of best "worlds".
> 
> But, in a generic response; Yes, Spain is much better than the UK, but then I really only know about Galicia.



Actually most "expat forumers" are probably the best people to ask - they've done it and some of us are even back in the UK after having done it! 

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina

thrax said:


> I had no idea there were places in Spain where you couldn't buy fresh milk. We have loads down here and buy it all the time. Although UHT doesn't taste as bad here as it does in other countries but we rarely buy it.


There's no demand for it in Alcalá. The locals don't use it (except maybe if their children eat cereals). They don't drink tea and they go to the bar to drink coffee. Even butter isn't stocked by the village shops (though you can sometimes get unsalted in the local Día supermarket). You have to drive 20km to Mercadona to get this new-fangled stuff.


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## Portugal-or-Spain?

jojo said:


> Actually most "expat forumers" are probably the best people to ask - they've done it and some of us are even back in the UK after having done it!
> 
> Jo xxx


So, you are no longer an expat!!! My point is, that it seems clear to me sometimes, some expats, not everyone of course, extol the virtues of where they live abroad just for self-congratulation purposes, and sometimes they have a property to sell in that area  Are there any posts that say "I live in XXX. Don't come here, it is awful"? (I agree, expat forums can be a valuable resource, when used / read carefully.


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## Lynn R

Portugal-or-Spain? said:


> So, you are no longer an expat!!! My point is, that it seems clear to me sometimes, some expats, not everyone of course, extol the virtues of where they live abroad just for self-congratulation purposes, and sometimes they have a property to sell in that area  Are there any posts that say "I live in XXX. Don't come here, it is awful"? (I agree, expat forums can be a valuable resource, when used / read carefully.


I like where I live, I am not selling my property, neither am I involved in any way in the real estate business. Am I not to be allowed to give my opinions on the relative merits of life in Spain?

When people come to the forum asking for information or even recommendations about possible locations for them to move to or buy property in, sometimes I recommend the town where I live and sometimes I don't - it depends what they've said about what they are looking for. I don't recommend my location to anybody looking for an area with a large expat population if they've said they want that for the purposes of socialising, or families wanting to be around other British families with children, or people who want a rural life, or those with mobility problems who can't manage hills.


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## Portugal-or-Spain?

Lynn R said:


> I like where I live, I am not selling my property, neither am I involved in any way in the real estate business. Am I not to be allowed to give my opinions on the relative merits of life in Spain?
> 
> When people come to the forum asking for information or even recommendations about possible locations for them to move to or buy property in, sometimes I recommend the town where I live and sometimes I don't - it depends what they've said about what they are looking for. I don't recommend my location to anybody looking for an area with a large expat population if they've said they want that for the purposes of socialising, or families wanting to be around other British families with children, or people who want a rural life, or those with mobility problems who can't manage hills.


Did not say you were one of those who do not.


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## Rabbitcat

A move to Spain can indeed improve quality of life.

My wife says if she stays in Ireland and I move to Spain her life will be improved tremendously


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## baldilocks

For us life in Spain means much less stress; no rushing around to keep up with paying a mortgage; no more 3 adults managing in a 1 BR flat; no more fighting through heavy traffic every time one wants to go anywhere; no more paying ridiculously high council tax, water and sewerage charges; little or no pollution on the roads; no lackadaisical approach to refuse collection encouraged by local authorities privatising public services leading to feral animal pests and the risk of spreading diseases; an excellent health service (much better in most respects than the NHS); we don't need 'nanny-state' living support; we can manage with a smaller, less expensive car, my OAP goes much, much further here, etc. We can happily live with an infrequent bus service, no local/easy access to trains, flights, etc. because they are things we don't need very often. And I haven't even mentioned the warmer, more friendly people, the fresh produce, the scenery, the weather, etc. - do you need more????


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> For us life in Spain means much less stress; no rushing around to keep up with paying a mortgage; no more 3 adults managing in a 1 BR flat; no more fighting through heavy traffic every time one wants to go anywhere; no more paying ridiculously high council tax, water and sewerage charges; little or no pollution on the roads; no lackadaisical approach to refuse collection encouraged by local authorities privatising public services leading to feral animal pests and the risk of spreading diseases; an excellent health service (much better in most respects than the NHS); we don't need 'nanny-state' living support; we can manage with a smaller, less expensive car, my OAP goes much, much further here, etc. We can happily live with an infrequent bus service, no local/easy access to trains, flights, etc. because they are things we don't need very often. And I haven't even mentioned the warmer, more friendly people, the fresh produce, the scenery, the weather, etc. - do you need more????


Most of those things could be said of my life in the UK, in fact everything apart from the improved weather. We had access to local fresh produce, attractive rural scenery at our door as we lived by a river with old mill and mill stream across the road, forests and coast within easy access, very friendly locals. Our NHS care was good.
Our PP council here in Spain has privatised all services it controlled.
Last summer was so hot and humid here that next year we are going to spend August in a house owned by a friend in the French lower Pyrenees.
Yes, a more relaxed life but that is because I am at last now 100% retired. I would be equally relaxed if I were in retired in the UK.
One thing I miss here is easy access to quality opera, concerts and the cinema which we enjoyed in Prague.
I think as I've said before...Jo is right when she says we do the same things here ...shopping, cleaning the loo, eating, sleeping and so on.
Happy, contented people are generally so wherever they find themselves. The one or two things extra Spain provides are the icing, not the cake, for me anyway.


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## Horlics

Portugal-or-Spain? said:


> My point is, that it seems clear to me sometimes, some expats, not everyone of course, extol the virtues of where they live abroad just for self-congratulation purposes, and sometimes they have a property to sell in that area


Well I am not full-time resident in Spain yet. I have a place there and go for approaching 6 months of the year. Sat in the UK right now, I can assure you I would rather be there. I picked my wife up from the airport yesterday after she'd been away visiting friends in the Middle East. On the way home I tried to persuade her to fly out on Thursday for 2 weeks in Spain, but she won't, Christmas prep and all that. Sadly, I am stuck in the UK.

As for property to sell, nobody can have mine, I want it.

Welcome to the forum, BTW. If you stick around or read enough past contributions, you'll see that we don't all sing harmoniously from the same hymn sheet. We have people who have been stung on property investments, who hate the bureaucracy, who came and then went because they don't like the Spanish attitude to animal welfare, and so on.

But whether positive or negative, you have the option of taking things at face value, or not.


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## mrypg9

In one hour and twenty minutes I shall have been in Spain for exactly seven years and in two weeks will have been out of the UK for ten years.
Always content wherever...


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## thrax

So, a few months ago our good friends lost a child through planned abortion. The child was terribly deformed. Yesterday they were told that their 6 year old daughter has leukaemia and they had to rush her to Malaga Hospital for a battery of tests. It turned out to be glandular fever - the first time a diagnosis of glandular fever was good news. Yesterday our son was very naughty at school so we had a lecture from his teacher. I witnessed her throwing him quite roughly to the ground when I went to pick him up (for those who don't know, he is 5 years old) so I am not best pleased with her although the school is, on the whole, excellent. Spent the night nursing a very sick 3 year old cat who was in a great deal of pain. Spent this morning at the vet whilst he underwent X-rays - turns out his bladder is 5 times normal size and not emptying. Operation underway but he is being collected as I write this. Picked up son from school and his behaviour today was exemplary. Is Spain better? For us definitely. But many folk on here often say, same life, different country...


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## mrypg9

thrax said:


> So, a few months ago our good friends lost a child through planned abortion. The child was terribly deformed. Yesterday they were told that their 6 year old daughter has leukaemia and they had to rush her to Malaga Hospital for a battery of tests. It turned out to be glandular fever - the first time a diagnosis of glandular fever was good news. Yesterday our son was very naughty at school so we had a lecture from his teacher. I witnessed her throwing him quite roughly to the ground when I went to pick him up (for those who don't know, he is 5 years old) so I am not best pleased with her although the school is, on the whole, excellent. Spent the night nursing a very sick 3 year old cat who was in a great deal of pain. Spent this morning at the vet whilst he underwent X-rays - turns out his bladder is 5 times normal size and not emptying. Operation underway but he is being collected as I write this. Picked up son from school and his behaviour today was exemplary. Is Spain better? For us definitely. But many folk on here often say, same life, different country...


That puts things in perspective...
Two weeks ago slipped a disc (old ligament rupture injury that plays up now and then).
Recovered then had very bad cold, had to miss flu jab.
OK now, looking forard to PSOE rally in Malaga with Susana Diaz tomorrow..
Two weeks ago a friend's much older husband had a stroke..
All of which could happen anywhere.


----------



## thrax

Update, Igor (we didn't name him but if you knew him you'd know it fits) the cat is home but asleep from the anaesthetic. He had a blockage not an infection but it should be ok now. He is 3 years old, a rescue cat from close by. The vet said he is one of the most beautiful cats he had ever seen and he looks almost exactly like a Spanish Lynx. 24 hour rollercoaster of emotions but nothing compared to what our friends endured with their daughter. I can relax tonight but I still won't watch East Benders...


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## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> Most of those things could be said of my life in the UK, in fact everything apart from the improved weather. We had access to local fresh produce, attractive rural scenery at our door as we lived by a river with old mill and mill stream across the road, forests and coast within easy access....


One big difference between Spain life and UK life - here you don't have to be wealthy to live somewhere rural and beautiful. I could never in a million years afford a place with a view like this if I'd stayed in England. Whenever I'm feeling down I just go up to the roof terrace and take a deep breath ...


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## Rabbitcat

Now that's one beautiful view. Lucky sod


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> One big difference between Spain life and UK life - here you don't have to be wealthy to live somewhere rural and beautiful. I could never in a million years afford a place with a view like this if I'd stayed in England. Whenever I'm feeling down I just go up to the roof terrace and take a deep breath ...


Well, we certainly weren't wealthy. We lived in an area where the average house price is under £150 k. Our detached old cottage cost £5 k cash, millstream view thrown in..
It's not really the case that you have to be 'wealthy' to be able to live somewhere rural and beautiful. There are very many beautiful places where property is cheaper than less aesthetically appealing places in many areas of the UK. 
Spain is not the only affordably beautiful country in the world either.
And not all Spaniards can afford beautiful views.
So is it really such a difference ?


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## Rabbitcat

Yeah but nice views in mostly pissing rain aint the same


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## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> Yeah but nice views in mostly pissing rain aint the same


The views don't change. In fact, there are some places that look better in gloomy weather.
Prague, for instance, always seems more suited to mist and rain...
Some mountain scenery looks more attractive when snow is falling or has freshly fallen.
Whereas many coastal areas look dreary unless viewed under blue skies.
The most beautiful European country - and one of the poorest - and which must surely have the most beautiful scenery is Montenegro.
My pointis that it's not only the wealthy who can afford to live in ' beautiful' places in Spain or any country.
Is there paradise anywhere on earth? Maybe in our minds. And that's what matters.


----------



## Lynn R

Rabbitcat said:


> Yeah but nice views in mostly pissing rain aint the same


How true. Where I used to live, in the Pennines, had nice views and property prices were low. However, to put it slightly more euphemistically than your good self, the views were far more often than not obscured by "low cloud" because we were almost 1000ft above sea level. Which also meant that we were very much above the snow line, and even when places 6 or 7 miles away had no snow, we did. I remember with no fondness whatsoever spending one Easter weekend with no electricity after the snow brought the power lines down, and on Easter Saturday morning I opened the front door to find the snow at chest height and had to go and find the shovel and start digging so we could get out. There were 4 roads out of our village and 2 of them were closed by snow every single winter, at one point. The first year I moved there, a cricket match was snowed off - in June. In 2006, the year we left, we had our central heating on in August.

I could certainly not have afforded to move to a pretty rural area of England which also enjoyed better weather.


----------



## Rabbitcat

mrypg9 said:


> The views don't change. In fact, there are some places that look better in gloomy weather.
> Prague, for instance, always seems more suited to mist and rain...
> Some mountain scenery looks more attractive when snow is falling or has freshly fallen.
> Whereas many coastal areas look dreary unless viewed under blue skies.
> The most beautiful European country - and one of the poorest - and which must surely have the most beautiful scenery is Montenegro.
> My pointis that it's not only the wealthy who can afford to live in ' beautiful' places in Spain or any country.
> Is there paradise anywhere on earth? Maybe in our minds. And that's what matters.



Lol
You're struggling a bit if you think pissing rain and rubbish weather generally improves the view!!


----------



## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> Lol
> You're struggling a bit if you think pissing rain and rubbish weather generally improves the view!!


Why? You're exaggerating! 

We're discussing opinions, here, after all.
Does it rain 365 days a year in the UK ? Of couse not. Do you have to be wealthy to have access to beautiful scenery in the UK? Of course not.
I lived for years in God's Own County, Dorset...beauty on my doorstep. With a widowed mum who cleaned floors for a living. When I bought my old cottage by the millstream in a very pleasant setting it was cheap as chips and I had started my first paying job on an average salary.
As I said, Spain is a beautiful,country, in places...no more than others, though and affordable only for some.. Let's not forget, we immigrants can afford our beautiful views - mine is sea in front, mountains behind...but many Spaniards can't.
So let's not get carried away.


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## Rabbitcat

Very true

Each to their own Mrypg 

But when it comes to the weather there's not really a contest between UK/ Ireland and Spain


----------



## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> How true. Where I used to live, in the Pennines, had nice views and property prices were low. However, to put it slightly more euphemistically than your good self, the views were far more often than not obscured by "low cloud" because we were almost 1000ft above sea level. Which also meant that we were very much above the snow line, and even when places 6 or 7 miles away had no snow, we did. I remember with no fondness whatsoever spending one Easter weekend with no electricity after the snow brought the power lines down, and on Easter Saturday morning I opened the front door to find the snow at chest height and had to go and find the shovel and start digging so we could get out. There were 4 roads out of our village and 2 of them were closed by snow every single winter, at one point. The first year I moved there, a cricket match was snowed off - in June. In 2006, the year we left, we had our central heating on in August.
> 
> I could certainly not have afforded to move to a pretty rural area of England which also enjoyed better weather.


Well, that's the North for you. I'm a southerner, my family are spread all over Dorset, Wiltshire, Devon and Somerset. None is wealthy, nearly all live in beautiful rural areas.
We even have palm trees down south....


----------



## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> Very true
> 
> Each to their own Mrypg
> 
> But when it comes to the weather there's not really a contest between UK/ Ireland and Spain


Between Northern Ireland and Spain, yes, I agree.
Don't wish to offend but Belfast is the only place I've actually fled from...attended a Conference at Easter four years ago, should have stayed seven days, bought new air ticket home after three.
Friendly people, though...but to me, very depressing.


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## Rabbitcat

Lol

Try 50+ years off it- depressing doesn't come close!

I kid you not in the 1970s we had about 100 Vietnamese boat people refugees brought here. After about 3 weeks they said thanks but no thanks and pleaded to go back home and take their chances!!!!

It's a dire place and the depressing "always a real downer" weather- is very appropriate


----------



## baldilocks

Lynn R said:


> How true. Where I used to live, in the Pennines, had nice views and property prices were low. However, to put it slightly more euphemistically than your good self, the views were far more often than not obscured by "low cloud" because we were almost 1000ft above sea level. Which also meant that we were very much above the snow line, and even when places 6 or 7 miles away had no snow, we did. I remember with no fondness whatsoever spending one Easter weekend with no electricity after the snow brought the power lines down, and on Easter Saturday morning I opened the front door to find the snow at chest height and had to go and find the shovel and start digging so we could get out. There were 4 roads out of our village and 2 of them were closed by snow every single winter, at one point. The first year I moved there, a cricket match was snowed off - in June. In 2006, the year we left, we had our central heating on in August.
> 
> I could certainly not have afforded to move to a pretty rural area of England which also enjoyed better weather.


Likewise when I lived in North Wales beside a lake - mountains all around and could even see Snowdon when the cloud wasn't down and the wind wasn't in the North West blowing rain, sleet and snow horizontally. It was beautiful, but I prefer where we live in Spain.


----------



## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> Well, that's the North for you. I'm a southerner, my family are spread all over Dorset, Wiltshire, Devon and Somerset. None is wealthy, nearly all live in beautiful rural areas.
> We even have palm trees down south....


Yes well, some people do live in the North, you know. There wasn't much call for my line of work in the counties you mention , and if I'd been looking at retiring to one of those areas, although you may not think the property prices are particularly high there, I would have been able to afford a 1 bed flat in Plymouth which is not a particularly nice area of Devon to live.

Somerset? Wasn't rather a lot of it under water quite recently,for weeks on end? They must have a fair bit of rain, then.


----------



## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> Yes well, some people do live in the North, you know. There wasn't much call for my line of work in the counties you mention , and if I'd been looking at retiring to one of those areas, although you may not think the property prices are particularly high there, I would have been able to afford a 1 bed flat in Plymouth which is not a particularly nice area of Devon to live.
> 
> Somerset? Wasn't rather a lot of it under water quite recently,for weeks on end? They must have a fair bit of rain, then.


That's the Levels....very low- lying. 
I don't know much about the North, have been to Moscow but not Manchester, Leningrad but not Leeds...shameful, really.
But the places I have visited have been stunningly beautiful. The Moors, the Dales...
Ditto Scotland. Fort William, the Islands...and not just for millionaires.
Weather and scenery are two different things and yes, I agree, it's cold up North...but beauty is beauty..in the eye of the beholder.

Am watching the Syria debate, have been from the start, good speeches on both sides but neither Sandra nor I convinced of the case for.


----------



## Horlics

mrypg9 said:


> That's the Levels....very low- lying.
> I don't know much about the North, have been to Moscow but not Manchester, Leningrad but not Leeds...shameful, really.
> But the places I have visited have been stunningly beautiful. The Moors, the Dales...
> Ditto Scotland. Fort William, the Islands...and not just for millionaires.
> Weather and scenery are two different things and yes, I agree, it's cold up North...but beauty is beauty..in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> Am watching the Syria debate, have been from the start, good speeches on both sides but neither Sandra nor I convinced of the case for.


It's a gesture, nothing more. There's nothing to bomb, the Americans and others have been at it for months. Here are some stats Special Report: Inherent Resolve

I watched the press conference the other day (link on that site) and the guy giving the update said they're running out of targets.


----------



## Roy C

They need to target Saudi Arabia to stop financing ISIL instead of selling them weapons. 

Sorry off topic a touch.


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## mrypg9

We didn't leave the UK for a 'better' life or in pursuit of the mythical (and imo rather naff) 'Spanish dream'. We left because, having retired, we wanted a change, a change of everything....lifestyle, scenery, climate...everything. Spain wasnot our first destination and tbh would never have been mine.
Retiring is a bit like leaving home for the first time but at the other end of your life. For some it can be a whole new start, like your first job or going to Uni. For others, it's the devil you know, the familiarity of well- known surroundings and friendships.
You pays yer money....and takes yer choice...whichever.


----------



## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> That's the Levels....very low- lying.


But all that rain doesn't fall only on the low-lying areas, it just accumulates there once it hits the ground.

On the subject of price disparity between the North and the South, a former work colleague of mine in the Manchester Regional Office (who also lived in the same village as me) got a promotion to do the same job as mine in the South East Regional Office, based in Brighton. The house she and her husband were able to buy in Lewes was a matchbox sized terraced house (but they call them cottages down there) with only 1 bedroom, and the mortgage repayments were so high that she was quite a bit worse off financially than if she'd stayed in her old job. Was never my idea of a good move to do that.

Poor woman never even got to reap the rewards of her sacrifice by selling the Lewes house for a lot more than I could get for my Lancashire one, she died of cancer in her mid 50s after being widowed when her husband electrocuted himself in an accident.


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> Well, we certainly weren't wealthy. We lived in an area where the average house price is under £150 k. Our detached old cottage cost £5 k cash, millstream view thrown in..
> It's not really the case that you have to be 'wealthy' to be able to live somewhere rural and beautiful. There are very many beautiful places where property is cheaper than less aesthetically appealing places in many areas of the UK.
> Spain is not the only affordably beautiful country in the world either.
> And not all Spaniards can afford beautiful views.
> So is it really such a difference ?


Average house price in Dorset: £281,468 
Average house price in Cádiz province: €140,000 (£100,000)

I rest my case.


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Average house price in Dorset: £281,468
> Average house price in Cádiz province: €140,000 (£100,000)
> 
> I rest my case.


Flawed reasoning
Look up average income in Dorset. it's not price it's affordability which is surely what you've been arguing....
Unikely as it would have seemed, Dorset has in recent years become a centre for IT and financial companies.
People do complain that wealthier outsiders come and buy property...rather like Brits whose purchasing power in many parts of Spain far exceeds that of unemployed or low waged locals.


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> Flawed reasoning
> Look up average income in Dorset. it's not price it's affordability which is surely what you've been arguing....
> Unikely as it would have seemed, Dorset has in recent years become a centre for IT and financial companies.
> People do complain that wealthier outsiders come and buy property...rather like Brits whose purchasing power in many parts of Spain far exceeds that of unemployed or low waged locals.


In the spirit of the OP, we were talking about where someone planning their retirement could afford to move to. If you can find me a 3-bed cottage in a Dorset village, with pretty views, that doesn't need any work doing to it, for £100k, let me know and I'll make an offer.


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> In the spirit of the OP, we were talking about where someone planning their retirement could afford to move to. If you can find me a 3-bed cottage in a Dorset village, with pretty views, that doesn't need any work doing to it, for £100k, let me know and I'll make an offer.


In the spirit of the OP, maybe. But as a general principle, I think it's wrong to equate pretty scenery and stunning views with 'wealth', a subjective concept in itself. I have friends who live in rural Cornwall, stunning views, nice cottage, early retiree social worker and partner. Certainly not enjoying large incomes. Ditto friends in a rural area near Sheffield. My neighbours lived in a terrace of old flint cottages, built late eighteenth century, not very des.res, poky rooms, low ceilings, bathrooms added on the back...of four properties, two occupied by retirees, former clerical workers, two occupied by factory worker and now Latvian immigrants working in food processing. Generally regarded as a rather down-market area...
Wealth, great wealth, buys many things in life, sadly....health care, education and yes, posh houses in desirable areas. But not having 'wealth' does not exclude you from living in a 'nice' area. I have relatives who live in a flat over a shop in Swanage...superb views over the Solent towards the Isle of White, Hardy Country on their doorstep. Others in Shaftesbury...none of them well-off by any sense of the term.
But where Spain is concerned you are right, in most cases. I doubt if I could afford to rent a large house with big garden, pool, sea and mountain views anywhere in the UK. Similarly as you say in your town.
But it's all relative, isn't it and not all Spaniards enjoy fine views.


----------



## Rabbitcat

Certainly health comes clear top of list of requirements to be happy
But after that a nice place to live a couple of quid in the bank and a bit of sunshine sure make life a lot more pleasant.


----------



## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> Certainly health comes clear top of list of requirements to be happy
> But after that a nice place to live a couple of quid in the bank and a bit of sunshine sure make life a lot more pleasant.


I agree. Of course what constitutes a nice place to live is a matter of personal taste.
A bit of sunshine certainly does improve most people's lives....but I can't say I enjoyed this August gone that much which is why we're off to cooler climes next summer, over the border in France, to a World Heritage Site village, as luck has it.
There is also the fact that after many skin ops OH can't spend time in the hot sun....
And yes, enough in the bank to suit your lifestyle. I'm into neither ostentatious living nor hair shirts. Working people spent far too long gazing at the shop window from the outside, as it were, and I think it's great that most people can now enjoy things that for centuries were privileges for the truly rich and powerful. 
Yes, there are far too many people on the breadline in every country but whatever government is in power, there will be inequality of income and lifestyle. It's the gap between those at the top and those at the bottom that matters.


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## mrypg9

By the way, Rabbitcat, I saw some stunning scenery when we went on a short trip in the countryside around Belfast.....and I'm guessing that property isn't that expensive either.
But it did rain two out of the three full days I was in NI.


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## Rabbitcat

Well as I sit here, cough splutter cough, in my damp mice infested condemned Belfast house, with the rain beating down outside and in, a pile of unpaid bills my only fuel for the fire in my cold one roomed abode contemplating will I be able to beg enough to get the money for a turkey pot noodle for this years Xmas din dins- the only thing that keeps me going is I just KNOW any day now an invite to Spain for a holiday from some generous Spanish property owning forum member is BOUND to arrive.

Cough, cough- better go now -the crowd at the bins at the back of the Chinese carry out gets busy soon, and I don't wanna stay out in the rain too long as if I get a kidney infection I will never be able to sell it.

Cough, splutter, bye for now.


----------



## mrypg9

Rabbitcat said:


> Well as I sit here, cough splutter cough, in my damp mice infested condemned Belfast house, with the rain beating down outside and in, a pile of unpaid bills my only fuel for the fire in my cold one roomed abode contemplating will I be able to beg enough to get the money for a turkey pot noodle for this years Xmas din dins- the only thing that keeps me going is I just KNOW any day now an invite to Spain for a holiday from some generous Spanish property owning forum member is BOUND to arrive.
> 
> Cough, cough- better go now -the crowd at the bins at the back of the Chinese carry out gets busy soon, and I don't wanna stay out in the rain too long as if I get a kidney infection I will never be able to sell it.
> 
> Cough, splutter, bye for now.


I am deeply moved by your sad plight. But alas, as I own no property in Spain or anywhere for that matter, I can do no more than commiserate. 
Now there are others on this Forum with property, property with stunning views too....they may help?


----------



## Rabbitcat

Cough, wheeze.
Yes thanks for your kind thoughts. My doctor says even a rental, cough splutter, property would suffice?


----------



## thrax

Rabbitcat, I would invite you but sadly, I note there are no direct flights from Kiribati to Malaga. But the good news is that I am prepared to eat an extra portion of turkey on your behalf...


----------



## Rabbitcat

Thrax you are kind to think of my plight as you scoff your seasonal bird.

Meanwhile yet another hope has been dashed.

I contacted my pen pal to ask if they would consider a house swaps with my Belfast house for a few months but they said they much preferred to stay where they are. Must be a lovely place Raqqa.


----------



## thrax

As Bob Marley once said, Love the life you live. Live the life you love


----------



## Rabbitcat

Bet he wasn't bloody froze skint and pissed off sitting in Belfast when he came up with that!


----------



## thrax

It does seem unlikely....


----------



## Sandraw719

I am health in Spain. Never have any skin problem or bad cough all the time. I suffered both 3 years in China. 

But I do not speak the language, it is a bit difficult. Also, I am still young but no job,I worry sometime. We have or will have decent assets but cannot trust to put in Spain,not in UK either. So it will be a problem.

One thing I never like is Spanish timetable.


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## baldilocks

Rabbitcat said:


> Bet he wasn't bloody froze skint and pissed off sitting in Belfast when he came up with that!


No he was in London with all the other international incomers.

Regrettably, although we have nice views of the ruin next-door unless it has finally completely fallen down since I last looked, we have no fortune to share. I think we have a lemon or two that would go towards the parsley thyme and lemon stuffing for your festive repast but you will have to collect it but since we have no airport, no railway station. no bus station, no port, it will be a long walk even if you manage to swim from Belfast to somewhere near the Iberian peninsula. You might have been able to ski part of the way but we have no snow yet.


----------



## baldilocks

...


----------



## baldilocks

baldilocks said:


> No he was in London with all the other international incomers.
> 
> Regrettably, although we have nice views of the ruin next-door unless it has finally completely fallen down since I last looked, we have no fortune to share. I think we have a lemon or two that would go towards the parsley thyme and lemon stuffing for your festive repast but you will have to collect it but since we have no airport, no railway station. no bus station, no port, it will be a long walk even if you manage to swim from Belfast to somewhere near the Iberian peninsula. You might have been able to ski part of the way but we have no snow yet.


I was going to add a picture of what happened to the bus but the power went off (Mayor ran out of money to feed the meter)


----------



## SandraP

Rabbitcat, if you can hang on for another 4 years, you can come and stay with us when we relocate, we will make sure we have a nice clean outhouse with some straw for you &#55357;&#56834;
I thought Belfast was a wonderful city, we stayed in a tent near the ice rink on a campsite and were taken around the city by a guy who lives in Newtownards. We were a group of motorbikers and even got to ride our bīkes up to the front of Stormont for photos &#55357;&#56835;


----------



## Rabbitcat

SandraP I accept your kind offer though with my condition deteriorating rapidly due to lack of Spanish sun and months without churros,cough wheeze, I fear your gift of straw will be required not as bedding but more of a wrap for a cadaver. Thanks anyway.


----------



## Alcalaina

Rabbitcat said:


> Well as I sit here, cough splutter cough, in my damp mice infested condemned Belfast house, with the rain beating down outside and in, a pile of unpaid bills my only fuel for the fire in my cold one roomed abode contemplating will I be able to beg enough to get the money for a turkey pot noodle for this years Xmas din dins- the only thing that keeps me going is I just KNOW any day now an invite to Spain for a holiday from some generous Spanish property owning forum member is BOUND to arrive.
> 
> Cough, cough- better go now -the crowd at the bins at the back of the Chinese carry out gets busy soon, and I don't wanna stay out in the rain too long as if I get a kidney infection I will never be able to sell it.
> 
> Cough, splutter, bye for now.


You will be as welcome as the flowers of May in Alcalá. Just bring your sense of humour and a bottle of Bushmills. :tea:


----------



## Lynn R

Casting my mind back to Thursday --- My plane touches down in Manchester at 4pm. It's very neary dark, cold, blowing a gale and starting to rain. I make my way to the airport railway station to find a long queue for the ticket machines. A notice says with unconscious irony "Please wait here until a Fast Ticket machine becomes available". The reason for the queue becomes apparent - 3 out of 4 ticket machines are out of order. By this time I have missed the off peak travel period and my single ticket into the city centre (a 15 minute journey) costs 7.10 (pounds) compared to the €1.85 I have paid to get from Málaga city centre to the airport (almost the same journey time). That 15 minute journey actually takes 25 as the train travels at the speed of a geriatric snail all the way into Piccadilly, for no apparent reason, and by now I have missed my connection. I haven't been back in the country an hour. Is life better in Spain - hollow laugh!

The weather was pretty vile throughout the 4 days I was there although thankfully not as bad as the poor people further North in Cumbria have had it. On Saturday afternoon the bus I took to go and visit my sister had to take a detour as the driver informed us that part of the main road into the town had collapsed and as he said, with some relish "it'll be like this for weeks". This comes less than a week after 18 months of horrrendous delays due to works to construct a new guided busway have finished.

Two lunches out in Manchester, although good and it was nice to get something different, cost me just about fifty pounds and the two of us could have had a nice meal out locally for the same amount.

Never have I been so glad to get home.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

> *Lynn R* Casting my mind back to Thursday --- My plane touches down in Manchester at 4pm. It's very neary dark, cold, blowing a gale and starting to rain. I make my way to the airport railway station to find a long queue for the ticket machines. A notice says with unconscious irony "Please wait here until a Fast Ticket machine becomes available". The reason for the queue becomes apparent - 3 out of 4 ticket machines are out of order. By this time I have missed the off peak travel period and my single ticket into the city centre (a 15 minute journey) costs 7.10 (pounds) compared to the €1.85 I have paid to get from Málaga city centre to the airport (almost the same journey time). That 15 minute journey actually takes 25 as the train travels at the speed of a geriatric snail all the way into Piccadilly, for no apparent reason, and by now I have missed my connection. I haven't been back in the country an hour. Is life better in Spain - hollow laugh!
> 
> The weather was pretty vile throughout the 4 days I was there although thankfully not as bad as the poor people further North in Cumbria have had it. On Saturday afternoon the bus I took to go and visit my sister had to take a detour as the driver informed us that part of the main road into the town had collapsed and as he said, with some relish "it'll be like this for weeks". This comes less than a week after 18 months of horrrendous delays due to works to construct a new guided busway have finished.
> 
> Two lunches out in Manchester, although good and it was nice to get something different, cost me just about fifty pounds and the two of us could have had a nice meal out locally for the same amount.
> 
> Never have I been so glad to get home.


Back to good ol' WSM for Christmas. lane:
Can't wait!!!:yuck::Cry::lol:


----------



## mrypg9

Yes, the UK is a right old hell- hole. Makes you wonder why so many people cross continents to get to it.
Thank God for first- world problems and that we have the means to escape them


----------



## Rabbitcat

Hello to this forum

My name is Dr Mentiroso. I am doctor of Rabbitcat and I am today using his forum sign in.

I appeal to you members that I have given Rabbitcat ia medical and I believe unless he gets a decent break to Spain soon, his condition could be critical. He suffers from lack of sun as well as being Irish and annoying

I have written him a prescription for sunshine, peace n quiet, a nice place to stay and lashings of lager. I recommend a period of 6 months and he's to avoid the stress of paying for anything.

Can anyone help with this urgent medical appeal?


----------



## bob_bob

A few years back we sold a London property to fund a villa in Spain then I got very ill so no purchase. These days I have five or six 'trips' to Spain, anything from a long weekend to three weeks but one thing I've come to realise is that I could never live in Spain full time. In theory Spain should tick all my boxes but it don't.

I've a good life in Wales and now realise I don't need to move full time elsewhere, when I want some sunshine I just buy an airline ticket


----------



## jojo

Lets not forget that the Spanish weather can be pretty awful in the winter. Its well documented on the forum that when we lived in Spain we had atrocious weather every winter. Floods, gales, torrential rain, freezing cold - especially at night. We were flooded in our house for several days at a time. The houses, in general are cold, damp, badly insulated, cool tiles everywhere, central heating is rare. On sunny days, I used to sit outside just to try to warm up. 

IMO, England is a much better place to be in the winter - even when we lived in Spain, we came back to our UK house for christmas and it was lovely and warm - central heating, carpets....


Jo xxx


----------



## Rabbitcat

bob_bob said:


> A few years back we sold a London property to fund a villa in Spain then I got very ill so no purchase. These days I have five or six 'trips' to Spain, anything from a long weekend to three weeks but one thing I've come to realise is that I could never live in Spain full time. In theory Spain should tick all my boxes but it don't.
> 
> I've a good life in Wales and now realise I don't need to move full time elsewhere, when I want some sunshine I just buy an airline ticket



Bob I find your post interesting . Can you expand as to why you don't feel Spain would be suitable for you full time


----------



## Lynn R

jojo said:


> Lets not forget that the Spanish weather can be pretty awful in the winter. Its well documented on the forum that when we lived in Spain we had atrocious weather every winter. Floods, gales, torrential rain, freezing cold - especially at night. We were flooded in our house for several days at a time. The houses, in general are cold, damp, badly insulated, cool tiles everywhere, central heating is rare. On sunny days, I used to sit outside just to try to warm up.
> 
> IMO, England is a much better place to be in the winter - even when we lived in Spain, we came back to our UK house for christmas and it was lovely and warm - central heating, carpets....
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


I'm sitting in my Spanish house right now with the windows wide open, and a short sleeved T-shirt on.

My aunt and my sister, who both live in centrally heated and double glazed houses in the UK, have both got problems at the moment with black mould due to condensation because of the unrelentingly wet weather they have been having. We have no such problem here, in spite of no central heating. Started using our gas heater in mid November and have been warm at night, a gas bottle costing €12.70 has lasted two weeks now.


----------



## Rabbitcat

Lynn, cough, cough, your place sounds nice and snug. Nice place sniffle sniffle for anyone suffering cold/ flu...... Achoo


----------



## jojo

Lynn R said:


> I'm sitting in my Spanish house right now with the windows wide open, and a short sleeved T-shirt on.
> 
> My aunt and my sister, who both live in centrally heated and double glazed houses in the UK, have both got problems at the moment with black mould due to condensation because of the unrelentingly wet weather they have been having. We have no such problem here, in spite of no central heating. Started using our gas heater in mid November and have been warm at night, a gas bottle costing €12.70 has lasted two weeks now.


I think we may have been unlucky lol, but it was horrendous. One particular winter the weather was so bad that we couldnt get out of our drive for several days. We desperately needed to buy more gas bottles, we had constant power cuts, my dog became ill with pneumonia and we couldnt get him to the vets (until it was too late). The roads outside our village (la alqueria) slid away, my friends horses at her stables in Cartama had to be airlifted to safety...... and when that all finally passed..... it started again, in fact it didnt stop raining from November til March that winter (2010??)...Oh and rain water got into the mechanics of our electric gates, so even when the flood outside of the drive cleared, we coouldnt open the gate lol

Last year we went to Nerja for a few days and actually, it was lovely during the day, but when the sun went down it was freezing and the apartment just wouldnt warm up - that said I do feel the cold terribly.

So, my memories of Spanish winters arent good!

Jo xxx


----------



## Rabbitcat

Love Nerja.


----------



## bob_bob

Rabbitcat said:


> Bob I find your post interesting . Can you expand as to why you don't feel Spain would be suitable for you full time


I honestly don't know. We're pretty well fixed financially so moving and living there would be no problem but ... I look forward to coming home.

I've my son and daughter in the UK and the grandchildren are a joy to be with so thats a factor I suppose.

I've never felt the urge to immerse myself in the Spanish language and culture, perhaps if I had I'd feel differently.


----------



## Alcalaina

Rabbitcat said:


> Love Nerja.


We went there for a couple of days last year just before Christmas. So pretty with all the Christmas lights, live music in the streets etc. Stayed at the Balcón de Europa so no problem with the cold! No idea what it's like in summer though, I wasn't impressed by the beaches. But nice for a winter break.


----------



## Lynn R

Rabbitcat said:


> Lynn, cough, cough, your place sounds nice and snug. Nice place sniffle sniffle for anyone suffering cold/ flu...... Achoo


Tough. I have no wish to catch your cold/flu.


----------



## Lynn R

jojo said:


> I think we may have been unlucky lol, but it was horrendous. One particular winter the weather was so bad that we couldnt get out of our drive for several days. We desperately needed to buy more gas bottles, we had constant power cuts, my dog became ill with pneumonia and we couldnt get him to the vets (until it was too late). The roads outside our village (la alqueria) slid away, my friends horses at her stables in Cartama had to be airlifted to safety...... and when that all finally passed..... it started again, in fact it didnt stop raining from November til March that winter (2010??)...Oh and rain water got into the mechanics of our electric gates, so even when the flood outside of the drive cleared, we coouldnt open the gate lol
> 
> Last year we went to Nerja for a few days and actually, it was lovely during the day, but when the sun went down it was freezing and the apartment just wouldnt warm up - that said I do feel the cold terribly.
> 
> So, my memories of Spanish winters arent good!
> 
> Jo xxx


I remember that winter, it really was bad, but that was by far the worst we've had in the 9 years we've been here, so not really representative. I have spent winter holidays in apartments in Nerja before we moved here and have been really cold, but I don't think holiday rentals are ever really properly equipped for keeping warm, whereas when a place is your own you can put whatever measures you need to in place so make sure you are comfortable.


----------



## el romeral

Lynn R said:


> I remember that winter, it really was bad, but that was by far the worst we've had in the 9 years we've been here, so not really representative. I have spent winter holidays in apartments in Nerja before we moved here and have been really cold, but I don't think holiday rentals are ever really properly equipped for keeping warm, whereas when a place is your own you can put whatever measures you need to in place so make sure you are comfortable.


Although with the fifth highest electricity price in Europe and many salaries nothing like fifth highest in Europe, many here in Spain maybe do not keep as warm as they might wish:snowman:.


----------



## MagicWriter2014

Winter2010 was horrendous in Scotland, we had literally tons of snow where I was living. There was so much that after a fortnight of it not looking remotely as if it was going to thaw, they had to get diggers and lorries in to clear it by taking it to the nearest quarry. Our car was buried for two weeks and then we decided we needed to dig it out. So think wherever you lived that year it was a bad winter!


----------



## Lynn R

el romeral said:


> Although with the fifth highest electricity price in Europe and many salaries nothing like fifth highest in Europe, many here in Spain maybe do not keep as warm as they might wish:snowman:.


None of the people I know on low or no incomes (because they're unemployed) use electricity for heating (or cooking, come to that) - and neither do I. So what has the price of electricity got to do with it?

Anybody who relies on electricity for heating (in any country) might as well be burning banknotes to keep warm.


----------



## thrax

We have a low wattage electric heater to start things off when it is really col, a gas heater which is very efficient and a log fire. Since we lived in this house we have never been cold in winter.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, the UK is a right old hell- hole. Makes you wonder why so many people cross continents to get to it.
> Thank God for first- world problems and that we have the means to escape them


I was only voicing a dislike for WSM, myself. It wasn't an evaluation on the UK as a whole.
Of course given the choice I far prefer my life here than there, but My Life not life in general.


----------



## jimenato

Pesky Wesky said:


> Back to good ol' WSM for Christmas. lane:
> Can't wait!!!:yuck::Cry::lol:


Give us a shout if you have a spare few minutes for a pint.


----------



## thrax

Last Christmas I had a pint with a very good friend of mine - in fact we had four!! He was in England and I was in Spain - Skype is a wonderful thing...


----------



## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, the UK is a right old hell- hole. Makes you wonder why so many people cross continents to get to it.


The original question was, would life in Spain be better for a retired person from the UK, would their pound go further and would they have a better standard of living.

So, the fact that life in the UK is undoubtedly better than living in a war zone or in abject poverty in a Third World country, which is why so many people cross continents to get to it, is not really relevant, is it?


----------



## bob_bob

Lynn R said:


> The original question was, *would life in Spain be better for a retired person from the UK, would their pound go further and would they have a better standard of living*.
> 
> So, the fact that life in the UK is undoubtedly better than living in a war zone or in abject poverty in a Third World country, which is why so many people cross continents to get to it, is not really relevant, is it?



I don't think Spain overall is cheaper than the UK, much the same really. The big thing for retired folk moving to Spain, is budget and health. If you can afford a warm damp free winter home in Spain life would be good but lets say you move age sixty five you only really have a decade or so of good mobility et al. Existing conditions won't get better moving to Spain but may take longer to get worse.

Remember that you don't get as much support in Spain in later life so there may well come a day when you have to return to the UK cap in hand.

I'd say that if you have retired and have a few quid in the bank then go and rent a place for a year and see how you get on.


----------



## Lynn R

bob_bob said:


> I don't think Spain overall is cheaper than the UK, much the same really. The big thing for retired folk moving to Spain, is budget and health. If you can afford a warm damp free winter home in Spain life would be good but lets say you move age sixty five you only really have a decade or so of good mobility et al. Existing conditions won't get better moving to Spain but may take longer to get worse.
> 
> Remember that you don't get as much support in Spain in later life so there may well come a day when you have to return to the UK cap in hand.
> 
> I'd say that if you have retired and have a few quid in the bank then go and rent a place for a year and see how you get on.


I have to disagree about the cost of living, I find it substantially cheaper in Spain.

With regard to support in later life, it is far cheaper to pay for care you may need in the home in later life here in Spain, and from everything I read and hear of in my own family, not only does the care have to be paid for if anyone has assets of over €23k but it is also becoming increasingly difficult to access due to local authority budget cuts. My sister's father-in-law who had had a stroke and was being cared for at home by his wife (who has heart problems) only had a couple of hours a week respite care to enable his wife to get a break, and that was withdrawn early this year. 

If anyone had to go into a residential home, there was an article in El Pais a couple of weeks ago which put the average cost of a care home in the Spanish private sector at just over €1,800 per month. I believe that compares very favourably with the cost of a UK residential care home for anyone who is self-funding, which again anyone with assets of over €23k would be.

Here's the article - they say it is too costly for many Spaniards to afford, but compared to the prices charged in the UK it seems a bargain to me (not that I'd want to end up in one, if I get the choice).

http://economia.elpais.com/economia/2015/11/20/vivienda/1448011185_040618.html


----------



## baldilocks

bob_bob said:


> I don't think Spain overall is cheaper than the UK, much the same really. The big thing for retired folk moving to Spain, is budget and health. If you can afford a warm damp free winter home in Spain life would be good but lets say you move age sixty five you only really have a decade or so of good mobility et al. Existing conditions won't get better moving to Spain but may take longer to get worse.
> 
> Remember that you don't get as much support in Spain in later life so there may well come a day when you have to return to the UK cap in hand.
> 
> I'd say that if you have retired and have a few quid in the bank then go and rent a place for a year and see how you get on.


What a miserable person you are. Spain is definitely cheaper overall. According to you I had better get a wheelchair ready for later in the year when I turn 75. My m-i-l (who lives with us ) is 85, so we'd better get the funeraria ready on standby. Average age of dying here is 85-95.


----------



## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> What a miserable person you are. Spain is definitely cheaper overall. According to you I had better get a wheelchair ready for later in the year when I turn 75. My m-i-l (who lives with us ) is 85, so we'd better get the funeraria ready on standby. Average age of dying here is 85-95.


Well, quite..
I don't think the cost of living is much different here than in the UK ...but then I consider anything to be too expensive if I can't afford it so as long as I can live the way I want to I'm happy.

I'm happy....happier living in Spain than I ever thought I'd be. Much happier than anywhere else I can think of. Being happy, having something to look forward to each day like a walk along the beach, coffee with friends, a good dinner, a good book to read....surely all those things are conducive to a healthier longer life...

I'm happy right now as we're off to have dinner in my favourite Estepona restaurant.


----------



## bob_bob

baldilocks said:


> What a miserable person you are. Spain is definitely cheaper overall. According to you I had better get a wheelchair ready for later in the year when I turn 75. My m-i-l (who lives with us ) is 85, so we'd better get the funeraria ready on standby. Average age of dying here is 85-95.


Miserable lol, not me, just honest.

Life is good anywhere so long as you have relatively good health and are financially secure.

You can live cheap in the UK if you choose to, same as if you live in Spain...you have said you and wife and MIL live on a few hundred quid a month and have a happy life, good for you.

Spain can be cheaper overall than the UK but it really depends on the lifestyle you pick and live by...same as living in the UK.

"Is life better" is a state of mind.


----------



## EdofWigan

Well another enjoyable 18 page thread, good honest, no flannel opinions 

I do like my visits to Belfast, I think it is a very vibrant city, working hard to cast off the perceptions of its past. Barrow in Furnace, on the other hand, building there need rendering in Valium. No offence to anyone from B i F.

Lynn R, it seems we hail from the same (UK) area, ish, as I am also currently inconvenienced, regularly by the 'Misguided Railway' construction (Atherton)

I kind of agree with Mary, that it is possible to have a rich and enjoyable life in most places and within budgets. It is really about with who and how you spend your time.

As i wind down my work here, I am looking forward to spending an increasing amount of time there. 

Shopping in markets, fresh produce, alfresco cooking & dining with friends  Travel and exploring new things.


----------



## Lynn R

EdofWigan said:


> Lynn R, it seems we hail from the same (UK) area, ish, as I am also currently inconvenienced, regularly by the 'Misguided Railway' construction (Atherton)
> .


Well spotted. I am from Tyldesley, where all my family still live, although I haven't lived there since 1977. You probably understand why I much prefer Andalucia.


----------



## Elyles

State of mind? Somewhat. As a retired psychologist and world traveler I can truthfully say that the quality of life is much better here than in the states. It all depends on your expectations. We have always lived below our means and take living here as an adventure.


----------



## Williams2

*The Joys of Spain - those Spanish business hours !!*

I don't know whether this has been mentioned already between pages 2 to 18 of this
long thread but has anyone commented on Spanish business hours - for Lawyers, Dentists, 
Estate Agents, Solicitors, most Spanish shops with the notable exception of Retail
Park Shops, Supermarkets, Corte Ingles and the Chinese bazaars.

( With the only other exceptions being those Spanish businesses that have to adhere to the
typical 9 to 5 routine of the Non Hispanic world, that is )

Namely the strange Spanish business hours of 9am to 2pm - then closed for two
to three hours before opening again from 5pm to 8pm.

On the plus side - if you do want to visit the Dentist outside the 9 to 5 business
hours - there's plenty of Dentists in Spain who work throughout the evening.

On the minus side - for those Expats, ingrained in the tradition of sitting in front
of the TV after they get home at 5pm and wouldn't be seen dead doing business
in the evenings. The late afternoon / evenings business hours could be seen as
a drag, particularly on dark winter nights !!


----------



## jojo

Now that the exchange rate is in favour of the £, it probably is cheaper in Spain on average. It was parity when we were there. But it is a harsh country compared with the UK. the "nanny" state isn't quite as all consuming in Spain.

That said, I know which one I'd prefer 

Jo xxx

Sent from my D5803 using Expat Forum


----------



## Lynn R

Williams2 said:


> *The Joys of Spain - those Spanish business hours !!*
> 
> I don't know whether this has been mentioned already between pages 2 to 18 of this
> long thread but has anyone commented on Spanish business hours - for Lawyers, Dentists,
> Estate Agents, Solicitors, most Spanish shops with the notable exception of Retail
> Park Shops, Supermarkets, Corte Ingles and the Chinese bazaars.
> 
> ( With the only other exceptions being those Spanish businesses that have to adhere to the
> typical 9 to 5 routine of the Non Hispanic world, that is )
> 
> Namely the strange Spanish business hours of 9am to 2pm - then closed for two
> to three hours before opening again from 5pm to 8pm.
> 
> On the plus side - if you do want to visit the Dentist outside the 9 to 5 business
> hours - there's plenty of Dentists in Spain who work throughout the evening.
> 
> On the minus side - for those Expats, ingrained in the tradition of sitting in front
> of the TV after they get home at 5pm and wouldn't be seen dead doing business
> in the evenings. The late afternoon / evenings business hours could be seen as
> a drag, particularly on dark winter nights !!


I know plenty of people who do moan about this, but we have never found it a problem. What's so hard about it, you find out what the opening hours are and go wherever you need to go when they're open.

The supermarkets have been open all day for years now anyway, and Mercadona has extended it's opening hours over the last couple of years. They're open from 9 am to 9.30 pm, 6 days a week, so surely that should be enough time for anybody to shop? And as you say, other places are open outside of normal hours too - I popped into a Morroccan owned bazaar shop to buy something on New Year's Day.

I might feel differently about it if I had to work (I wouldn't like working the split hours myself, and for workers it must be inconvenient if everywhere is closed when you're not working yourself) but for retired people I can never see why it's a problem. Mornings are shopping time or for attending to business matters for us, and that's that.


----------



## skip o

Lynn R said:


> What's so hard about it, you find out what the opening hours are and go wherever you need to go when they're open.


It's hard because 1. Many businesses in Spain don't post hours and 2. When businesses do post hours, they are often just rough estimates. 

All evidence suggests that Spanish employees are less productive and less happy than employees in other Western European countries.

It doesn't surprise my that Spain has such horrific unemployment. It's often so much easier to just order something from amazon.co.uk or amazon.com (both of which are much, much better than amazon.es, of course) than deal with the nonsensical local business hours.


----------



## xabiaxica

Lynn R said:


> I know plenty of people who do moan about this, but we have never found it a problem. What's so hard about it, you find out what the opening hours are and go wherever you need to go when they're open.
> 
> The supermarkets have been open all day for years now anyway, and Mercadona has extended it's opening hours over the last couple of years. They're open from 9 am to 9.30 pm, 6 days a week, so surely that should be enough time for anybody to shop? And as you say, other places are open outside of normal hours too - I popped into a Morroccan owned bazaar shop to buy something on New Year's Day.
> 
> I might feel differently about it if I had to work (I wouldn't like working the split hours myself, and for workers it must be inconvenient if everywhere is closed when you're not working yourself) but for retired people I can never see why it's a problem. Mornings are shopping time or for attending to business matters for us, and that's that.


yep - me working when everywhere I want to go is open is a pita

My bank opens an hour before I start work, but I rarely want to go that early! It closes before I finish as well  

Picking up prescriptions usually has to wait until the weekend, as does going to the post office.

I'm used to working 'split sifts' now though, and because I work so close to home, it means I get a chance to eat lunch at home & do houseworky things in the afternoon - or just chill for a couple of hours


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## jojo

skip o said:


> It's hard because 1. Many businesses in Spain don't post hours and 2. When businesses do post hours, they are often just rough estimates.
> 
> All evidence suggests that Spanish employees are less productive and less happy than employees in other Western European countries.
> 
> It doesn't surprise my that Spain has such horrific unemployment. It's often so much easier to just order something from amazon.co.uk or amazon.com (both of which are much, much better than amazon.es, of course) than deal with the nonsensical local business hours.


Its Spain and isnt that what makes it more relaxing, "laid back", less regimented?? Accept the differences and enjoy - If you want conformity, regularity and the nanny state then come back to the UK

Jo xxx


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## Pazcat

Lynn R said:


> I might feel differently about it if I had to work


I guess more people would.
It's not really acceptable to have to take time off of work to do simple stuff like banking or collecting a package from Correos or to even have to do pointless stuff at the town hall because none are open at even remotely sensible hours or have the ability to create a web presence that would mean you can actually do something without wasting everybody's time and money.

How is it the mail service(I use the term very loosely) can go on holiday for 2 weeks?

These people are being paid by taxpayers and I find it troubling that the taxpayers accept this, not everyone in Spain is unemployed or retired.

Of course service is likely to differ from region to region but here it is awful, anyone would think we are 5 days travel on horseback away and can only communicate via smoke signals.


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## Lynn R

skip o said:


> It doesn't surprise my that Spain has such horrific unemployment. It's often so much easier to just order something from amazon.co.uk or amazon.com (both of which are much, much better than amazon.es, of course) than deal with the nonsensical local business hours.


Now I find having things delivered from local businesses I have bought from much more reliable, prompt and less stressful than buying online and depending on delivery by courier. We live in an area where vehicle access is not possible and local deliverymen don't turn a hair at parking their vehicle wherever they can and carrying heavy stuff up to the house, whereas courier drivers frequently say our address doesn't exist and we have to resort to going to meet them somewhere nearby (after much toing and froing either by phone or email after they say they've tried to deliver but it wasn't possible) and carrying the stuff home ourselves, which kind of defeats the object.


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## Lynn R

skip o said:


> All evidence suggests that Spanish employees are  less productive and less happy than employees in other Western European countries.
> 
> .


Does it?

Spain Productivity | 1995-2016 | Data | Chart | Calendar | Forecast | News


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## Lynn R

Lynn R said:


> Does it?
> 
> Spain Productivity | 1995-2016 | Data | Chart | Calendar | Forecast | News


Sorry, I meant to include this for comparison purposes
United Kingdom Productivity | 1959-2016 | Data | Chart | Calendar


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## Lynn R

Pazcat said:


> I guess more people would.
> It's not really acceptable to have to take time off of work to do simple stuff like banking or collecting a package from Correos or to even have to do pointless stuff at the town hall because none are open at even remotely sensible hours or have the ability to create a web presence that would mean you can actually do something without wasting everybody's time and money.
> 
> How is it the mail service(I use the term very loosely) can go on holiday for 2 weeks?
> 
> These people are being paid by taxpayers and I find it troubling that the taxpayers accept this, not everyone in Spain is unemployed or retired.
> 
> Of course service is likely to differ from region to region but here it is awful, anyone would think we are 5 days travel on horseback away and can only communicate via smoke signals.


Obviously things are different in different areas. My town hall has a one stop shop customer service office which is open in the afternoons as well as in the mornings.

With reference to Correos being closed for 2 weeks, do you mean over the Xmas period? Our Correos has only been closed on Xmas Day and New Year's Day, and will be closed on 6 January. Same amount of days as in UK where they close on 26 December (but not 6 January obviously). We have had postal deliveries this last week, as normal. Our Correos office is open until 2.30 pm on weekdays too, which I suppose gives time for most people who are working to collect packages after they break for lunch, if they need to.

By the way, don't a great many Spanish workers leave their workplaces for breakfast in the mornings for half an hour or so (now that IS something I find annoying!)? So presumably they could go to the bank or Correos during that time.

Our bus services operate a Sunday service (which is quite frequent, half hourly for the local services compared to every 15 minutes during the week) on every bank holiday including Xmas Day, which is vastly better than in the UK.


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## Pazcat

Our town hall are only open 3 or 4 hours a day, 11-2pm or something like that and only on weekdays. To top that off the bank across the road which is supposed to be open daily is only open for 3 days a week on similar hours to the town hall so don't go on a day the banks closed.

Correos has been shut down here for holidays, to be fair they only open between 11 and 12:30 on week days so they have earned that break.
No mail for that time either and the only reason I would know it was closed is because I got a notification to pick something up and the next day went and it was locked up for the holidays.
We also went 3 months without a mail box or a postal address because it took that long to get us a key even though we paid for that service.

Being open for lunch is pointless if you are an hour away really.

All I'm saying is in some aspects(ok lots) that have never been an issue in Spain become one and it puts the Spanish out as much as it does non-Spanish people so I struggle to see why people allow it especially when it's your money and could be an easy fix.
It's easy to generalise about the Spanish way of life, it is certainly the most used excuse for lack of service in some parts.


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## baldilocks

Why all these gripes about when the post-office/town hall. bank, etc are open and their hours coinciding with when you are working? It was the same in UK and everywhere else.

As for delivery services, it obviously is only applicable where you live, ours are fine apart from UPS (who on earth would want to send something valuable or fragile by a carrier that calls itself "Oops?"). We have excellent service from our deliveries (SEUR, MRW, Correos, etc) except from UPS, DPD (who dump the things onto SEUR)


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## xabiaxica

baldilocks said:


> Why all these gripes about when the post-office/town hall. bank, etc are open and their hours coinciding with when you are working? It was the same in UK and everywhere else.
> 
> As for delivery services, it obviously is only applicable where you live, ours are fine apart from UPS (who on earth would want to send something valuable or fragile by a carrier that calls itself "Oops?"). We have excellent service from our deliveries (SEUR, MRW, Correos, etc) except from UPS, DPD (who dump the things onto SEUR)


Actually it wasn't the same, because I could pop out to shops or the bank in my lunchbreak & they were open then - whereas when I get my break now - so do they! (not the correos, but since it's a bus ride away it isn't convenient to go in the afternoon) 

Mostly it doesn't really bother me that much though, it just means I have to be more organised & it's worth it on balance

The only real problem for me is the bank - it makes paying my takings in a serious pita


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## Lynn R

Some things used to be inconvenient for me in the UK, largely because of where I lived in relation to where I worked. My commute was 1.5 hours each way (on a good day, it could be a lot more if there were delays or I had to travel for meetings). Collecting parcels or recorded delivery items from the Post Office was one, because they opened after I'd left for work and closed long before I got home.

GP and dentist appointments were another. I had to take at least half a day off work to attend either, although when NHS walk-in centres became available at least I could go to the one in the city centre instead (I have read that most have now closed down, though). Otherwise I had to ring the surgery at 8.30 am (when I should have left for work 1.5 hours earlier), and it was always difficult to get through because everyone else trying to get an appointment would be ringing at the same time. I couldn't set off for work and then ring because if they offered me an appointment I wouldn't have had time to come back again to make the appointment.

Even if I were working here, it would be so much easier now as I can make appointments online at a time to suit me, and the health centre is open until 9pm every night (the other one in town is open 24 hours a day). As someone else said, dental appointments are also available in the evenings.

So although banking hours are certainly a problem, it's just another swings and roundabouts situation really. Some things are better/more convenient, some not.

Incidentally, isn't it still the case that you can authorise someone else to pick up a parcel for you at Correos, if you sign the form they leave telling you you have a parcel to collect, fill in your NIE and they have a copy of your passport?


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## Horlics

There's one overriding factor for me. I am visiting my mother for Christmas. Her friend marks a diary with the weather and told us that today is the 46th consecutive day of rain. It's pissing it down and almost dark. Nothing else matters, I want to get back to Spain.


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## Williams2

Thanks for all your thoughts regarding Spanish business hours with the 3 hour break
in the afternoon.
Following on from this - I was wondering whether Spanish business hours ( for the
aforementioned businesses and professions - eg Gestors ) are somehow enshrined
in Spanish law or not ? just out of curiosity !!

Looking back on your posts, I see a lot of comments about the opening hours of
the Post Office ( Correos ) and the Banks but no ones mentioned the fact that
some banks seem to be catering to the afternoon trade ( namely during the so
called Winter months from October until March ) by being open during both
the morning and afternoons on a Thursday.
So I wonder what makes Thursday afternoon opening hours 'so special' over
the winter months - whether it's due to demand or some obscure Spanish
banking tradition ?

Finally what are Expats thoughts about Sunday trading in Spain.
As many of you know, Spain is one of the few EU countries where Sunday is still
sacred and nobody trades on the Sabbath day. Except the aforementioned
Chinese bazaars of course.

As many British Expats know - Sunday used to be sacred in England & Wales
until the 1990's. With only the usual Petrol stations and Newsagents open on
a Sunday. Until - that is - B&Q started extending their DIY opening hours to
Sunday in contravention of the Sunday trading laws.

So for me - Sundays in Spain resemble Sundays in England & Wales before
the Sunday trading laws were amended by B&Q and the other big retail businesses,
looking to start trading on a Sunday.


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## jimenato

Horlics said:


> There's one overriding factor for me. I am visiting my mother for Christmas. Her friend marks a diary with the weather and told us that today is the 46th consecutive day of rain. It's pissing it down and almost dark. Nothing else matters, I want to get back to Spain.


I know what you mean - it's getting a bit depressing now. But I have also known it to rain for months on end in Spain - and seriously hard - harder than you see in the UK.


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## Lynn R

Williams2 said:


> Finally what are Expats thoughts about Sunday trading in Spain.
> As many of you know, Spain is one of the few EU countries where Sunday is still
> sacred and nobody trades on the Sabbath day. Except the aforementioned
> Chinese bazaars of course.
> 
> As many British Expats know - Sunday used to be sacred in England & Wales
> until the 1990's. With only the usual Petrol stations and Newsagents open on
> a Sunday. Until - that is - B&Q started extending their DIY opening hours to
> Sunday in contravention of the Sunday trading laws.
> 
> So for me - Sundays in Spain resemble Sundays in England & Wales before
> the Sunday trading laws were amended by B&Q and the other big retail businesses
> wanted to start trading on a Sunday.


I agree - it is like it used to be in the UK before the Sunday trading laws were amended. Which is fine by me. I rather like quiet Sundays, although religious sensibilities aren't the reason. Having said that, quite a few small local shops (Spanish owned) do open on Sundays, at least in the mornings. We went out to buy a newspaper earlier, and took the opportunity to call in at the fruteria as it was empty whilst on weekday mornings it can take ages to get served in there (I wonder why, if shopping hours are so inconvenient for those who work, the supermarket always seems to be busy with customers too). Several bakeries are also open on Sundays here, and a lot of mini-supermarket type shops. Most of the bazaar shops in town are closed on Sundays, apart from one Chinese owned and one Morroccan owned one.


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## Horlics

jimenato said:


> I know what you mean - it's getting a bit depressing now. But I have also known it to rain for months on end in Spain - and seriously hard - harder than you see in the UK.


North coast, or Galicia, surely?


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## Lynn R

Horlics said:


> North coast, or Galicia, surely?


Normally yes, but we have had one very wet winter here in Andalucia in the 9 years I've lived here. I'd managed fine for 3 years without a tumble dryer and thought I'd never need one, but was forced to go out and buy one on 26 December as we just could not get the washing dry.

We thought we might get some rain here earlier today, there were black clouds around and we did get a few drops, but then it cleared up again. We've had 25C temperatures yesterday and the day before, by 1pm.


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## bob_bob

Today started with thunder followed by hail and then torrential rain...I've never seen so much rain in Wales before other than Snowdonia.


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## jimenato

Lynn R said:


> Normally yes, but we have had one very wet winter here in Andalucia in the 9 years I've lived here. I'd managed fine for 3 years without a tumble dryer and thought I'd never need one, but was forced to go out and buy one on 26 December as we just could not get the washing dry.
> 
> We thought we might get some rain here earlier today, there were black clouds around and we did get a few drops, but then it cleared up again. We've had 25C temperatures yesterday and the day before, by 1pm.


Very heavy rain is common enough but - yes - only that one winter I remember went on for months. 

This winter in the UK is unusually wet and incredibly warm - warmest December day in England ever I believe. 

I find the darkness of the UK winter depressing - the days are short and the longer summer days don't make up for it. It would be a major improvement from my point of view to change to CET, however I seem to remember that Spain is considering moving to GMT - I have no idea why.


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## baldilocks

Horlics said:


> There's one overriding factor for me. I am visiting my mother for Christmas. Her friend marks a diary with the weather and told us that today is the 46th consecutive day of rain. It's pissing it down and almost dark. Nothing else matters, I want to get back to Spain.


We are cloud bound and can't see more than a few yards and of course although it isn't actually raining, it might as well be.


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## Williams2

baldilocks said:


> We are cloud bound and can't see more than a few yards and of course although it isn't actually raining, it might as well be.


Meanwhile I see the Surfers in Asturias are busy waxing their Surf boards again, no doubt in anticipation of the 'big waves' coming our way from Storm Frank, etc.


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## Horlics

jimenato said:


> Very heavy rain is common enough but - yes - only that one winter I remember went on for months.


I'm glad to hear it was just the one winter! Can you remember which one?


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## jojo

Horlics said:


> I'm glad to hear it was just the one winter! Can you remember which one?


2010

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> 2010
> 
> Jo xxx


Not in our barrio.......


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## Lynn R

jojo said:


> 2010
> 
> Jo xxx


I think it was the winter of 2009/2010


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## baldilocks

I agree with Lynn, it WAS 2009/10 when roads were washed out all over the place. 2008/9 was VERY cold (I got frostbite)


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## Isobella

Nice to see the forum is getting back to normal

It is said that Barcelona is wetter than Leeds and Cadiz wetter than Manchester. May be different if they include this years stats

Is life better in Spain...depends if you want to be there or not and what your priorities are. I certainly wouldn't want to work there and you will pay more tax, check it out. We have friends who love it and others who want out, if they could sell.

Is it cheaper, I don't think so when you compare the big picture. Spain is a big place and there are variations.


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## jojo

Lynn R said:


> I think it was the winter of 2009/2010


 yes, the winter of 2009/2010. It rained forever - well from about october til march. Everywhere flooded, roads and properties were washed away, animals, even people where killed.

We were flooded in our house without gas and with flaky electricity for days. The children couldnt get to school and my dog died from pneumonia. My husbands flights kept getting cancelled, so he was stuck in England.

I moan about this everytime weather is mentioned on the forum . We are having bad weather here in the UK at the moment and I cant remember when it last stopped raining, but its nowhere near as bad as it was in Spain

Jo xxx


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## baldilocks

Another factor to consider is "STRESS!"

IMHO, there is definitely far less stress here (at least in this part of Jaén province) - I can't speak for other parts of Spain because I don't live there. There is certainly far less traffic and a much more relaxed attitude to everything once you learn to go with the flow. Some newcomers get frustrated when Agustín decides to stop in the middle of the road to speak to Juan, but it isn't usually for long and should you really need to get on (for an appointment) a friendly 'toot' will normally get you past. Almost everyone (around here) is warm and friendly. 

Just remember that your appointment with death can always be brought forward, if you really insist, either by driving too fast, getting overstressed so that you provoke a heart attack, or drinking yourself into an early grave.


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## EdofWigan

I am in Lancashire but I am guessing you have all worked that out  Wind, rain and flooding all over the region but seems to be improving now. The ground is totally waterlogged, so and more can't be absorbed.


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## jojo

EdofWigan said:


> I am in Lancashire but I am guessing you have all worked that out  Wind, rain and flooding all over the region but seems to be improving now. The ground is totally waterlogged, so and more can't be absorbed.


 The pictures I've seen from your area remind me of Spanish winters - although 2009/10 was the worst, the others werent without a good few torrential showers and high winds

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina

Williams2 said:


> Thanks for all your thoughts regarding Spanish business hours with the 3 hour break
> in the afternoon.
> Following on from this - I was wondering whether Spanish business hours ( for the
> aforementioned businesses and professions - eg Gestors ) are somehow enshrined
> in Spanish law or not ? just out of curiosity !!
> 
> Looking back on your posts, I see a lot of comments about the opening hours of
> the Post Office ( Correos ) and the Banks but no ones mentioned the fact that
> some banks seem to be catering to the afternoon trade ( namely during the so
> called Winter months from October until March ) by being open during both
> the morning and afternoons on a Thursday.
> So I wonder what makes Thursday afternoon opening hours 'so special' over
> the winter months - whether it's due to demand or some obscure Spanish
> banking tradition ?
> 
> Finally what are Expats thoughts about Sunday trading in Spain.
> As many of you know, Spain is one of the few EU countries where Sunday is still
> sacred and nobody trades on the Sabbath day. Except the aforementioned
> Chinese bazaars of course.
> 
> As many British Expats know - Sunday used to be sacred in England & Wales
> until the 1990's. With only the usual Petrol stations and Newsagents open on
> a Sunday. Until - that is - B&Q started extending their DIY opening hours to
> Sunday in contravention of the Sunday trading laws.
> 
> So for me - Sundays in Spain resemble Sundays in England & Wales before
> the Sunday trading laws were amended by B&Q and the other big retail businesses,
> looking to start trading on a Sunday.


Yes, Spanish working hours are "enshrined in law". Sunday restrictions are more to do with trades unions than the church. Big stores are only allowed to open a certain number of Sundays a year. Smaller shops can open Sunday mornings if they sell fresh bread. Some restrictions have been lifted for gift shops etc in tourist areas.

The 30 minute break for town hall staff to have breakfast (usually 10-30.30 am) is also enshrined in law. They don't have a lunch break. This can be annoying if they all go to breakfast together and don't leave any cover, but you soon get used to it. It's the same in the health centre. 

These laws are to improve the lives of workers rather than clients/customers. Personally I don't have a problem with that. It won't last much longer, that's for sure.


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## EdofWigan

By the time I land in Spain (without wheels) I will be retired (early) I might actually have retired by the time I 'Pop' in on wheels.

I can see how restricted opening hours can inconvenience those on imposed timetables, of their own but I personally like the whole idea of the Spanish attitude to a healthy work:life balance.

In the UK, companies are always restricting this and that and streamlining everything that remains.

I am sure the transition will be, at times, frustrating but the resultant place will be so much better, than the rush, rush, hurry, hurry, now wait, place I am atm.


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