# Moving to Australia as EU citizen, or Germany as an easier choice?



## b_nester (Jun 7, 2015)

Hello guys, this is my first post but I have been lurking in here for some time now.

So I have this dilemma:
My parents and I live in Croatia (I'm a student at the moment, studying Computer Science), I am 22 and have two more years to graduate. My mother has had a job in Germany as an elderly care worker for four years now and she lives in the house of the person she takes care of as it is mostly a 24/7 job. She is a merchant by trade and has no experience in the field. My father is working in Croatia and is electro-mechanical technician with a pittance for a salary (cca. 800€ a month). We manage to get by as it is mostly because of my mother's salary. 

Since supposedly my job is wanted in most countries, I know English pretty well and don't know German, I would very much like to move to Australia (I guess I just seem to like it).

Now the problem is that it would be much easier to move to Germany (closeness, familiarity of Europe) but learning the new language, climate and German mentality - I don't like those. It would also allow me to stay with or close to my parents. They are nice people but apparently want me to stay with them and take care of them in the old age. Something along the lines of "we spent a lot of time on you in the past 20 years, you should do the same for us when we get old", "if you go to the Australia we will never/rarely see your children", "we invested so much into you and now you want to leave us behind" and "where will we go once we get separated".

I, on the other side, want to go on with my life for a change. Move somewhere, start from scratch and build my own life and so on but feel guilty taking a bigger risk of moving to Australia and leaving them behind on their own.

So, both of those countries are supposedly nice to live in but I have taken a liking to Australia for some reason.

So here are my questions:
1) Do you have any experience with any of the two countries?
2) How hard would it be to integrate into society and get a job with just a basic knowledge of German language (e.g. one year course)?
3) How hard is it to get work in Australia as a junior/graduate software developer with no work experience (except few projects)?
4) Is it feasible to come to Australia with e.g. 2-3k AUD if you have previously found a job (and is it possible to get a job while out of the country), or would I need more money to start with?
5) Should I go against my over-protective parent's wishes and still move to the land down under?

Thank you in advance


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## KeeDa (Sep 1, 2014)

IMO, it is more of a personal decision than anything else. Both countries have ample opportunities, but looking at your situation, I feel Germany would be a better choice for you at this point in time. Hopefully, I am able to explain you why, in replies to your questions below:

1. Germany- Yes. Australia- not so much.
2. At your age and given that you already have some basic knowledge of the language, it should be extremely easy for you to integrate. Not sure why you said "German mentality". From my (half a decade of) experience, Germans are equally nice and accommodating.
3. Very difficult at the moment, unless you have some exceptional skills/ projects to showcase that might match closely with those expected by your prospective employer.
4. a- since you have been reading here, you must be already aware that it is very very difficult (close to impossible) to get a job down under while not being locally residing here on a work-eligible-visa. b- 2 to 3K AUD might suffice for a month in case if you have a job, and a place to live for free. It is very expensive to live here. Also consider the visa costs, skills and English assessment costs, medical examinations fees, and travel expenses. In the future, should you wish to bring your parents permanently to Australia, then visas for the family stream too are expensive with long waiting periods. Not sure if I am quoting the right visa category here- but I think it is the parent contributory visa which has a wait period of 14+ years. Although visitor visas are another option, but they have their own limitations.
5. If I were you, irrespective of parent's decision, I would put aside the Australian dream for now, complete studies, get some professional work experience, and save some good amount of money first. I can relate to your situation about the desire to break free and start on your own. I was about your age when I headed for Germany. But, Australia seems too expensive to be even considered for someone who is just starting out and on a budget.


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## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

b_nester said:


> Hello guys, this is my first post but I have been lurking in here for some time now.
> 
> So I have this dilemma:
> My parents and I live in Croatia (I'm a student at the moment, studying Computer Science), I am 22 and have two more years to graduate. My mother has had a job in Germany as an elderly care worker for four years now and she lives in the house of the person she takes care of as it is mostly a 24/7 job. She is a merchant by trade and has no experience in the field. My father is working in Croatia and is electro-mechanical technician with a pittance for a salary (cca. 800€ a month). We manage to get by as it is mostly because of my mother's salary.
> ...



And on top of what KeeDa has mentioned, you won't be even eligible to apply for the permanent resident visa of Australia unless you gain some work experience after your graduation. I can't think of any other/easier visa through which you can come to Australia and positively look for employment opportunities. I am not sure about visa policies of Germany, but if you can get employment visa in Germany straight after your graduation, then it sounds like a better bet for now.


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## b_nester (Jun 7, 2015)

I don't need visa for Germany since Croatia is a member of EU. You could say that I would need to learn language almost from scratch since I forgot everything that I have learnt in primary school. What do you think about working in my home country, Croatia, for a lower wage than in e.g. Germany for 2-3 years, earning some money and than trying to move to Australia. My salary here would be about 900€ neto as a junior developer but living costs are pretty low here so I might be able to put aside some 400€ a month. I would not like to spend half of my life or more jumping between countries as it might put me at a disadvantage about my pension and such things, so I'm thinking about focusing on moving to one place. I'm not sure I would even be able to get job in Germany with no work experience and basic knowledge of German.

So maybe stay in country for some time, gain experience and earn a few thousand euros to finance my move to Australia few years later in life?


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## Ben-HH (Jan 8, 2015)

b_nester said:


> I don't need visa for Germany since Croatia is a member of EU. You could say that I would need to learn language almost from scratch since I forgot everything that I have learnt in primary school. What do you think about working in my home country, Croatia, for a lower wage than in e.g. Germany for 2-3 years, earning some money and than trying to move to Australia. My salary here would be about 900€ neto as a junior developer but living costs are pretty low here so I might be able to put aside some 400€ a month. I would not like to spend half of my life or more jumping between countries as it might put me at a disadvantage about my pension and such things, so I'm thinking about focusing on moving to one place. I'm not sure I would even be able to get job in Germany with no work experience and basic knowledge of German.
> 
> So maybe stay in country for some time, gain experience and earn a few thousand euros to finance my move to Australia few years later in life?


Hey young fellow

I reckon you gain some experience first before you make any move. That has the advantage that you might become clear about what you want and would make you eligible to apply for Aussie PR.
I don't see how Germany could work for you...

You do not like the mentality!
You do not speak German!
You have very little experience!


Cheers and good luck...


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## b_nester (Jun 7, 2015)

Ben-HH said:


> Hey young fellow
> 
> I reckon you gain some experience first before you make any move. That has the advantage that you might become clear about what you want and would make you eligible to apply for Aussie PR.
> I don't see how Germany could work for you...
> ...


Thank you for your reply. Since you are from Germany and living in Australia, how do you like it down there compared to Germany? I haven't spent that much time in Germany, only about two weeks, and it might be that I have misjudged in that time (not knowing the language might have played the part).

My logic is that if I am making such a big decision that I do it right the first time.


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## Ben-HH (Jan 8, 2015)

b_nester said:


> Thank you for your reply. Since you are from Germany and living in Australia, how do you like it down there compared to Germany? I haven't spent that much time in Germany, only about two weeks, and it might be that I have misjudged in that time (not knowing the language might have played the part).
> 
> My logic is that if I am making such a big decision that I do it right the first time.


And that is why I suggest you take your time and let pass a few more years. You will struggle to find a job in any country without experience. Even with PR for AUS it is a struggle to land a job. Just imagine why someone should employ you when they can hire someone local with more experience. Unless you have some very special niche skills.

PS: I am currently still in Germany but have lived in AUS for about 2.5yrs. I like Australia more/different for various reasons.


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## b_nester (Jun 7, 2015)

Yep, true that with experience. Too bad my country is so f***** up that you earn even up to 7 times less than in some countries while things aren't 2 times cheaper. In fact, some things are even more expensive :/

But guess I'll do a few years in here for the experience and then attempt the move. Even if I do manage a visa but end up without a job a trip down there would be nice .

How many years of experience do you thing would be needed for me to have a possibility at a job in Australia?

And do you think intensive learning of German would be worth it? Truth is that my parents could make the move to Germany because of some connections and friends they have made, and Australia would be impossible for them because of their age, almost no knowledge of the language and Australia's visa programme. I'm not sure if leaving them behind would be OK on my side. 

And did I mention, you guys rock. Quite a few replies in a day


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## happybuddha (Sep 28, 2012)

b_nester said:


> I don't need visa for Germany since Croatia is a member of EU. You could say that I would need to learn language almost from scratch since I forgot everything that I have learnt in primary school. What do you think about working in my home country, Croatia, for a lower wage than in e.g. Germany for 2-3 years, earning some money and than trying to move to Australia. My salary here would be about 900€ neto as a junior developer but living costs are pretty low here so I might be able to put aside some 400€ a month*. I would not like to spend half of my life or more jumping between countries as it might put me at a disadvantage about my pension and such things,* so I'm thinking about focusing on moving to one place. I'm not sure I would even be able to get job in Germany with no work experience and basic knowledge of German.
> 
> So maybe stay in country for some time, gain experience and earn a few thousand euros to finance my move to Australia few years later in life?


If this is a prime concern, I highly recommend staying away from Australia. I am told Germany has a way better social security system than Australia and most other countries. With the way things are currently in Australia, many locals believe that pensions will be 100% done away with in less than 20 years or so. 

Also, what is wrong with living in a few countries ? It will only enrich this experience called life. Don't be afraid to make a few mistakes.


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## b_nester (Jun 7, 2015)

Problem with living in a few countries as I see it is not being able to integrate into any of them, and I would like someplace that I would be able to call home for once. Also, moving all the time seems to be pretty expensive and impractical from my point of view. I could be wrong tho. 

Currently I'm studying away from my family's home and I have to move every summer back home and than at the start of the academic year back to the city I study in so I think I can get the idea. I can't buy anything larger than a box because I will not be able to move it :/

I do like travel and adventure tho as I am a long distance bicycle tourer, but I don't see moving around all the time as the valid lifestyle - mostly from the financial standpoint.



happybuddha said:


> If this is a prime concern, I highly recommend staying away from Australia. I am told Germany has a way better social security system than Australia and most other countries. With the way things are currently in Australia, many locals believe that pensions will be 100% done away with in less than 20 years or so.
> 
> Also, what is wrong with living in a few countries ? It will only enrich this experience called life. Don't be afraid to make a few mistakes.


Ofc pension is not my prime concern - actually far from that - but you have got to live off something once you get old.


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## happybuddha (Sep 28, 2012)

b_nester said:


> Problem with living in a few countries as I see it is not being able to integrate into any of them, and I would like someplace that I would be able to call home for once. Also, moving all the time seems to be pretty expensive and impractical from my point of view. I could be wrong tho.
> 
> Currently I'm studying away from my family's home and I have to move every summer back home and than at the start of the academic year back to the city I study in so I think I can get the idea. I can't buy anything larger than a box because I will not be able to move it :/
> 
> ...


Personally, I find your naivety very cute 
A lot of recently immigrated IT Consultants live out of a suitcase. It gives them the agility to move instantly. Permanent positions are far and few in Oz. What if you had to move between different cities every 6 months to be able to keep yourself employed ? I know a lot of consultants doing this. It isn't easy, but it pays the bills. Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## b_nester (Jun 7, 2015)

One more question. 

Is it worth moving to Australia compared to other countries?

I mean there must be some other reason than the weather that people go there.....money?


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## ozbound12 (Mar 23, 2012)

b_nester said:


> One more question.
> 
> Is it worth moving to Australia compared to other countries?
> 
> I mean there must be some other reason than the weather that people go there.....money?


Compared to what countries? 

Obviously you have determined there is some value in moving to Australia or else you wouldn't be considering it in the first place? I mean, why do YOU want to move there?


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## b_nester (Jun 7, 2015)

To get out of my country that is going bancrupt for the most part. Because I know the language, salary seems nice, I have some relatives down there and they say it is nice, it seems like a good place to live, has good weather (no -20°C in winter) and it is supposed to have quite a high living standard. 

Available alternatives would be (english speaking) Canada or UK (meh), and if I take my time to learn the language then Germany or maybe Austria. Australia lists among top 10 for many things: medical care, social security, quality of life, disposable income and etc. I understand that those are reserved mostly for the locals? Feel free to tell me wrong, my experience only comes from other forum threads and internet, and if it's on internet it must be true - right?


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## ozbound12 (Mar 23, 2012)

b_nester said:


> To get out of my country that is going bancrupt for the most part. Because I know the language, salary seems nice, I have some relatives down there and they say it is nice, it seems like a good place to live, has good weather (no -20°C in winter) and it is supposed to have quite a high living standard.
> 
> Available alternatives would be (english speaking) Canada or UK (meh), and if I take my time to learn the language then Germany or maybe Austria. Australia lists among top 10 for many things: medical care, social security, quality of life, disposable income and etc. I understand that those are reserved mostly for the locals? Feel free to tell me wrong, my experience only comes from other forum threads and internet, and if it's on internet it must be true - right?


Well, the reasons you stated are a lot of the same reasons people decide to move here in the first place. Many recent migrants come from less stable countries, places with fewer opportunities, countries where becoming a permanent resident or citizen is not possible, overcrowded countries, etc. Australia represents, to them, an escape from those realities. It also happens to be one of the easier western countries to migrate to (compared to the US, UK or even Canada these days).

You're right that there are some things that are only available to citizens and permanent residents - things like medicare (subsidised health care), social security benefits and so on. But theoretically, if you came to Australia on a work visa and wanted to stay permanently, there would be an option for you to do so - employer sponsorship, points-based visas, marrying a citizen/PR, etc. - and that would be available to you.

As for other countries, I can't speak to Germany or Austria, but I do know a bit about the UK and a lot about Canada. The UK would certainly be an easier option as an EU citizen (well, at least until the Brexit happens). As for Canada, it's very similar to Australia in a lot of ways but you mentioned that a cold climate would be a deal breaker so I'm not sure how good of an option that would be for you. Plus, you'd run into a lot of the same barriers as you would in Australia. Not to mention, the current government is making it much harder to migrate and the Canadian economy is doing rather poorly at the moment.

As some other folks have said, finish your studies and re-assess your options then. Things happen quickly in the visa/migration world and what's possible today might not be in two years. Laws change and so do the economic realities of a country.


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## jimblrtoaus (May 25, 2015)

Here is my 2 cents. 
I Suggest you should prioritize getting employed and try to do some cool stuff, gain some cool skills. The advantage you have is your age. You need to ask yourself what skill would you gain for countries to want to keep you. Look for computer related jobs so that you don't lose points on working in an unrelated field. Start Building your profile in the next 2-4 years to be wanted by employers anywhere in the world. If you can travel and work in different countries then it is even better. Employers look really favorably on people with international exposure. 
After this decide where you want to settle. and then apply accordingly at that time.


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## b_nester (Jun 7, 2015)

Thank you ozbound12 and jimblrtoaus, I suspected it is as you two say. I am doing the best I can - doing personal projects, doing projects for college, and so on. I am mostly focusing on web development - django, php, mysql, postgresql, linux scripting/poweruser, server maintenance, seo, frontend design - those are the things I have done a few projects in. I still could move to another sector if this one is getting saturated but since I started with this in middle school I'm reluctant to just let go and there still should be some jobs in this sector...


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## KeeDa (Sep 1, 2014)

b_nester said:


> Thank you ozbound12 and jimblrtoaus, I suspected it is as you two say. I am doing the best I can - doing personal projects, doing projects for college, and so on. I am mostly focusing on web development - django, php, mysql, postgresql, linux scripting/poweruser, server maintenance, seo, frontend design - those are the things I have done a few projects in. I still could move to another sector if this one is getting saturated but since I started with this in middle school I'm reluctant to just let go and there still should be some jobs in this sector...


That is where you might be going wrong in the IT industry- to stick to something and reluctant to let go. Those are some keywords from a decade back in the tech world. There are a lot of new and in-demand technologies out there that you should focus on. There sure are and would always be some jobs in those sectors, but not many. Also consider that a lot of those are very easy to outsource. Browse Australian job sites and look at the things employers are demanding these days. In this field, you learn something, understand its pros and cons, work on it, and move on to something new and better.


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## b_nester (Jun 7, 2015)

I'm not sticking to something and not letting go, I just thought that maybe specialising in one area might be better for landing a job. I still have to do my masters (two years) so I will move to other technologies as well. Do you think that it would be better know something about more of the areas or specialize for some less common area than web development? My college is offering master degrees in software engineering and computer systems - and they are basically the same if you look at the timetable.

Well, you guys gave me hope that moving is indeed possible so I will try my best


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## KeeDa (Sep 1, 2014)

If you ask me, in IT, specializing in just one area is like putting all your eggs in one basket. That comes with a risk. You never know if your specialization will go out of fashion by the time you get out in the market for jobs. Always try and be jack of all and master of none. Just know (at a professional level) every possible thing out there (helps highlighting your resume too).


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## b_nester (Jun 7, 2015)

So writing one application for android in a few weeks as a part of some project would be sufficient to put that knowledge into your resume/CV, even if you are far from expert in that field?


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## b_nester (Jun 7, 2015)

I've had a discussion with my mother about choice of the country and she is constantly claiming that Germany is a much better choice - to the point that I will be going against her wishes if I do try to move to Australia. She keeps metioning house and apartment prices, loan interest rates, education costs, eldery care, weather and many other things as vastly better in Germany than in Australia (she has only been in Germany tho) and that I would not have a reason to move anywhere else than Germany.

I don't know if it's for that constant pushing that I am disliking Germany more and more - probably yes - but she has painted Australia as a capitalist hellhole and doesn not let go.

So if anyone has experience with any, or better both, countries - how much better or worse would Germany be to Australia?

I just keep pestering you with questions  If anyone has questions about moving to Croatia I'll have to help out to pay you back (don't know why anyone whould want to do that, but to each their own).


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## jimblrtoaus (May 25, 2015)

Hey b_nester, 
If you are planning to complete your masters why don't you try to do your masters in Australia. You can try to get a job there after collage. I know the financial burden is high. But you will know what the place is like before you start thinking of migration.


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## b_nester (Jun 7, 2015)

jimblrtoaus said:


> Hey b_nester,
> If you are planning to complete your masters why don't you try to do your masters in Australia. You can try to get a job there after collage. I know the financial burden is high. But you will know what the place is like before you start thinking of migration.


That, dear sir, would be money.
To finish my masters it will be around 8000k AUD for everything.
To get to Autralia I would need almost half of that - air tickets, visa, etc.
Student pay in Croatia is around 3.5 AUD an hour.
And it doesn't feel right to ask my parents to finance something like that because they don't have much better salary than the student one.

I did consider that tho, but it is out of the question.


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## BngToPerth (Apr 6, 2015)

b_nester said:


> I've had a discussion with my mother about choice of the country and she is constantly claiming that Germany is a much better choice - to the point that I will be going against her wishes if I do try to move to Australia. She keeps metioning house and apartment prices, loan interest rates, education costs, eldery care, weather and many other things as vastly better in Germany than in Australia (she has only been in Germany tho) and that I would not have a reason to move anywhere else than Germany.
> 
> I don't know if it's for that constant pushing that I am disliking Germany more and more - probably yes - but she has painted Australia as a capitalist hellhole and doesn not let go.
> 
> ...



Lets weigh out your options, and then you can decide what's your destination.

Croatia is a part of EU and soon going to join schengen member group. You can easily go to Germany and start working there, 

you can choose your IT path and be insulated from massive migration that's happening in OZ these days most of the migrants are IT folks here and you shall have a large base to compete with on your job hunt down here.

Your mum has said it right, Germany does have a edge on things she said except for the weather ( but that's my view ). Plus you need not cross multiple oceans just to come here and still be alien for some time, you are still close to your home country if you are in Germany.

Australia on other hand needs a suitable visa to come and work, Croatia as per my knowledge is not part of WHV visa scheme which would have given you a option to come here and judge the things.

OZ on the other hand has some other things to carve for wonderful weather blue skies and magnificent ocean lines.

It's a paradise for many migrants from developing nations (especially the english speaking ones) but there views and your's might differ on the outlook towards oz.

Its mighty expensive and yes its capitalist but thats entirely debatable topic as i know you come from state which has socialism in its root, and its something which can be judged only by experience.

So according to me you need not venture so far, but whats a albatross who has just stayed in one continent. If you tend to get a visa and opportunity then sky is the limit spread your wings and come flying down to magnificent land of oz and it welcomes you 

Cheers and have fun


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## b_nester (Jun 7, 2015)

Well then I better start learning German so I will have two options


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## Ben-HH (Jan 8, 2015)

b_nester said:


> Well then I better start learning German so I will have two options


You better first make up your mind whether you like the German mentality or not. I am pretty sure that if you don't you won't be happy in Germany. But if you do and you are open minded you can have a splendid time. 

Don't get fooled that Germany has such a great social net. Well, it has but it comes at a price. There is a LOT which gets deducted on top of your tax to pay for all these things.

Let's just take health care as an example. People say it is great and almost "free" in Germany. Yes, true but do not forget that currently 7,3% of your gross salary goes into health care (on top the Employer pays another 7,3%, so a total of 14,6%). In Australia only between 1,5 and 2% of your gross salary goes into health care (plus private cover for dental care and ambulance etc.). So even with your private cover and out of pocket expenses health care in Australia is actually similar if not cheaper.

PS: Weather is crap in Germany...


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## b_nester (Jun 7, 2015)

Nah, I got my mind set on Australia.

I still don't like Germany, but moving anywhere that is better than Croatia is an improvement (and since I don't like mentality here - ********, blindly religious, uneducated, etc. Germany can't be worse ) and if Australia fails for some reason I guess I can go to Germany - if I know the language :/

You guys have been a tremendous help on this forum. I have also spied some other threads about similar problems.


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## KeeDa (Sep 1, 2014)

b_nester said:


> So writing one application for android in a few weeks as a part of some project would be sufficient to put that knowledge into your resume/CV, even if you are far from expert in that field?


If you can design, develop, deploy+distribute a sizeable and successful app within 2 weeks, then of course, why not? After all, it is not just those 2 weeks of Android development. A lot of time and effort would have gone prior to this in learning Java, VMs, Scala, Gradle, etc.


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