# S.A. crime VASTLY overrated!!



## fromthe hood (Aug 22, 2011)

I get a kick out of people always saying how crime riddan S.A. is. Do me a favor folks>>>> Go to the U.S. Britain, France, Australia or any number of places around the globe then you will see crime. I am from the U.S. originally (The diaspora) and my one areae has way more crime than the whole country of 50 million!! ALL countries have crime, but SA is far from bad. Hell, murders still make the newspapers!! I love it. I live by the beach in a town 20 mins from Durban town center. But I also LOVE the city and city beeches too. And they are FREE! and clean. IN the states many times you pay R300-R500 just to get into a half assed beech + parking. Enjoy your country and dont get caught up in the hype!:clap2::clap2:


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

May you never change your mind.


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## fromthe hood (Aug 22, 2011)

Daxk said:


> May you never change your mind.



Nah I wont. See, I have seen this before. Peoples perceptions color their logic.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

fromthe hood said:


> Nah I wont. See, I have seen this before. Peoples perceptions color their logic.


And a gun at your head changes perceptions sometimes irrevocably.


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## cmdsg (Sep 10, 2010)

Daxk, a gun at your head can happen anywhere in the world please see the news


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I guess until the worlds media decide to report SA as a safe, law abiding country, it will continue to be seen as a fairly lawless and possibly dangerous place. I am not talking from any experience, just what I hear from the worlds media. True or not, its what the rest of us hear, South Africa has a reputation!

That said, I have heard that its a beautiful country and worth seeing, but maybe some who live there maybe arent so beautiful?????

I had a friend who lived there for 5 years and she said altho she didnt ever experience any violence, it was simply known that you didnt stop at traffic lights, you didnt ever have your handbag on display and you always stayed within the confounds of your own little bubble.

Jo xxx


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

I love Africa, especially South Africa and I've been running a business here for more than 3 decades and living here for more than one decade but anyone who thinks it's as safe as most other places in the world is mistaken to say the least and the Global Peace Index would agree with me. Rankings & Results « Vision of Humanity 

GPI ranks the USA 82nd, UK 26th, Oz 18th Canada 8th................. and RSA 118th.

I agree it's a good place to live in live in many ways....... standard of living, lifestyle and weather are good but there's no doubt the country has serious safety and crime issues. :boxing:


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

cmdsg said:


> Daxk, a gun at your head can happen anywhere in the world please see the news


Yes, it can,but the people on this forum are'nt goint anywhere else in the World, they are , or want to, go to SA, which has a high level of guns at your head in your home..

Thats not just my little view, its the view from the SA Police reports which will give you a breakdown, by Police Station, on exactly how many people have had guns at their heads and where.
Its easy, Google SAPS crime stats by Station , you will find it.

Now I understand that there are people who have lived in crime infested places in America and France and Britain to whom this is a daily occurrence, and where constant vigilance is a must.

There too, I would hope, were I heading for one of those neighbourhoods, I would be told what is safe and what is not safe.

and anyone telling me its totally safe to perhaps wander through a Favela at night because its safe and crime is over rated,or a walk down Londons Docklands or NY's Central park at midnight, would be doing me a disservice and I would think they are trolling for a reaction.

But I re-iterate, which of those crime infested neighbourhoods are a Sandton, or Durban North or Centurion? 

Could the OP perhaps point out some suburbs in his wide experience that are similar in Demographics and Crime incidence?


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## fromthe hood (Aug 22, 2011)

cmdsg said:


> Daxk, a gun at your head can happen anywhere in the world please see the news



Thank you for that. :clap2::clap2:


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## fromthe hood (Aug 22, 2011)

Daxk said:


> Yes, it can,but the people on this forum are'nt goint anywhere else in the World, they are , or want to, go to SA, which has a high level of guns at your head in your home..
> 
> Thats not just my little view, its the view from the SA Police reports which will give you a breakdown, by Police Station, on exactly how many people have had guns at their heads and where.
> Its easy, Google SAPS crime stats by Station , you will find it.
> ...



Nobody said be stupid! but please RE-READ what my topic is saying!! There are places in New york that I dont go at midnight, just like everywhere. But this idea that SA is suddenly one of the most dangerous people in the world to live is a bit over done. but anyway, I would hope that anybody who thinks SA is that dangerous would never set foot in it again. me? I dont live in fear. Sorry.:confused2:


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## daisy.au (Aug 22, 2011)

crime is everywhere,worldwide,its been universal since the big bang, embrace it. SA is just another landmass of human beings with a natural instinct to get what makes them happier by any means possible.. even here in france its a crime for men to urinate on a tree.


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## fromthe hood (Aug 22, 2011)

daisy.au said:


> crime is everywhere,worldwide,its been universal since the big bang, embrace it. SA is just another landmass of human beings with a natural instinct to get what makes them happier by any means possible.. even here in france its a crime for men to urinate on a tree.





now that "here in france its a crime for men to urinate on a tree" sh## was funny!! :lol::lol::jaw:


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## Jamie-2011 (Aug 23, 2011)

daisy.au said:


> crime is everywhere,worldwide,its been universal since the big bang, embrace it. SA is just another landmass of human beings with a natural instinct to get what makes them happier by any means possible.. even here in france its a crime for men to urinate on a tree.


Dude, why are you trying to crack my ribs?


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## Tonyj (Sep 25, 2011)

Hi,

After reading the above, I thought Id just like to add a few things.

On my travels around the world one tends to be in that travel bubble where you don't have the real sense of danger thats potentially around you, as your not trained in the subtle cues to read ( although Im sure some are universal - someone waving a gun around will do the trick!). Also, you are somewhat fresh there and, and therefore don't have the FEAR history so also don't worry unnecessarily! I was in Mexico Monterey and the friends we were staying with were not stopping at traffic light late at night - I kind of did not say anything at 1st, and it took a few times, and then i found out that, well, its dangerous! I have stayed there many times and as a foreigner thought it was all just a bit unnecessary! ( not negating that they did not think so) Fear and a history of fear seems to bring-about a sense of mild paranoia ( sure I would not be saying that if it had happened to me!!!)

Living in London for the past 22 years has proven time and time agin how the psychology of a country toward crime ( even violent) has a massive impact on how you operate when outdoors. I have been driven off the road and attempted to be dragged out of my car for violence - not robbery. My cars over the years have been robbed more time than i care to mention - if not, they have been vandalised for no reason - lashed with a chain even when driving in my "Safe up market area" at night time. I was once with my SA friend who insisted SA was SO DANGEROUS he will NEVER return - insisted that he would walk along a street i said no to! He had his way, and in Tottenham court Road we were surrounded but 20 Youths and nearly stabbed ( in a very busy st - nobody helped) On top of this Ive been assaulted too many times and now have a very strong sense of how dangerous LONDON actually is, and will not go to many areas - mainly the centre tourist district. My friend has just came out of a coma after walking through Piccadilly circus, after being beaten by a gang of youths. You may think this is just unlucky - let me assure you that its not, its out there and dangerous if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The fear culture in SA is not to be sniffed at....Indeed its dangerous ( wrong place wrong time!!) However, I seem to always here 2 opposite polls?! Those that seem intent on being extremely staunchly " you will die a terrible gun death" OR " don't worry is a beautiful place and crimes not that bad. We all know that it somewhere in the middle. Like crime anywhere in the world, you have to be carful there are murderous SOB everywhere, more in certain places, and areas ( Poverty ) They will try if they can to take whats yours even your life! But, Leading a life thats carful and not based on FEAR, and being streetwise and smart is the only way to live anywhere.

Im in the process of trying to move permanently to DURBAN which if Im being honest, and after my time in LONDON ( oh also forgot, Ive been robbed on the tube ) seems like just another place you have to keep your wits about you - and at least its not dark 7 months of the year and freezing cold ;-)


Cheers.


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## savannah77 (Sep 28, 2011)

I don't think anyone can deny S.A has a high crime rate. 31.8 per 100 000 people is a very high murder rate (although it is a lot down from 70 per 100 000 as we found in 1994). What the people leave out of the stats though is the context. By a huge margin the people most affected by murder are young poor black and mixed race males. The wealthy or middle class are far less likely to be affected by murder. The MRC (medical research council) did a study using morgue data and found for example 2.8 per 100 00 white females were the victims of murder. This is around about the same level as you would find in the U.S.A. but still almost double what you would find in the U.K. 


The point is it's important to understand that murder is South Africa is not chaotic and unpredictable. If you're part of the risk group (poor/black) it's a really prominant part of your life. If you're coming to visit/live here as an expat there's a good chance you are at least middle class and would very probably never be exposed to any form of violent crime in S.A.


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

Savannah

I'll have to disagree with you on that....... In the area I've just left after living there for over a decade, the white tourists are the very people who are now being targeted.

Every single hotel/lodge/guest house between White River & Hazyview has been hit by armed robbers over the last few months, plus I know of at least two tourists who were woken at gunpoint in the middle of the night (just outside Nelspruit) and robbed of every stitch of clothing and ALL their other belongings less than a month ago and shortly before that, two Americans who were just checking into a lodge in the same area and their guide was shot dead in his hotel room for nothing more than his wife's handbag...... which incidentally, was empty of valuables. 

I love RSA but one needs to aware of the real situation there........


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## savannah77 (Sep 28, 2011)

travelling-man said:


> Savannah
> 
> I'll have to disagree with you on that....... In the area I've just left after living there for over a decade, the white tourists are the very people who are now being targeted.
> 
> ...


All your anecdotal "evidence" aside, so how many tourists are killed in S.A on average a year ? Something between zero and 1 from what I've read (closer to zero than 1). Out of 12 million tourists a year. Just of the top of my head a few countries who have a higher rate of tourist murders:

Australia, Thailand, Jamaica.

All places I don't think anyone packs a knife proof vest for. So why should people have to worry about visiting S.A more than visiting anywhere else ?

Not rhetorical questions. I'd like an answer.


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## fromthe hood (Aug 22, 2011)

*One of my other points is this*

In the U.S. we know that there are a HUGE number of murders that go "unknown" or people just as we say "come up missing". We also at any given time have up to 10 SERIAL KILLERS roaming the country. And crime stats are in many ways skewed. The point about crime in the hood is well taken. here in New york we recently had 1 day with 43 shootings! but again, all in all, there are MANY.MANY MUCH more dangerous places to be. me?


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## savannah77 (Sep 28, 2011)

fromthe hood said:


> In the U.S. we know that there are a HUGE number of murders that go "unknown" or people just as we say "come up missing". We also at any given time have up to 10 SERIAL KILLERS roaming the country. And crime stats are in many ways skewed. The point about crime in the hood is well taken. here in New york we recently had 1 day with 43 shootings! but again, all in all, there are MANY.MANY MUCH more dangerous places to be. me?


Well at least you (like S.A) have crime stats. Most (gross majority) of the third world can't even provide them due to lacking the infrastructure like hospitals, police and morgues. S.A of countries that provide stats is the 12th most violent country in the world. Nothing to be proud about but I think there's a fair correlation to be made between crime and poverty by assuming most of the countries who can't provide stats are worse than here. 

The rough point is that there is nothing unique about crime in S.A although we know there are people out there that push that angle pretending crime is getting worse here when it's actually massively improved. We're roughly in the same situation as Brazil or Russia (our Brics brothers). What's unique about us is we have a self hating element of expats who left the country who think they make their lives better (or at least feel better) by portraying the situation as far worse than it really is. It's all to do with them wanting S.A to be portrayed as a failure under black rule, but that elephant in the room they'll never admit to.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

savannah77 said:


> Well at least you (like S.A) have crime stats. Most (gross majority) of the third world can't even provide them due to lacking the infrastructure like hospitals, police and morgues. S.A of countries that provide stats is the 12th most violent country in the world. Nothing to be proud about but I think there's a fair correlation to be made between crime and poverty by assuming most of the countries who can't provide stats are worse than here.
> 
> The rough point is that there is nothing unique about crime in S.A although we know there are people out there that push that angle pretending crime is getting worse here when it's actually massively improved. We're roughly in the same situation as Brazil or Russia (our Brics brothers). What's unique about us is we have a self hating element of expats who left the country who think they make their lives better (or at least feel better) by portraying the situation as far worse than it really is. It's all to do with them wanting S.A to be portrayed as a failure under black rule, but that elephant in the room they'll never admit to.


As I often point out, the international media tend to paint SA as a crime ridden and unruly country. So, rightly or wrongly thats how most people see it!

Jo xxx


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## fromthe hood (Aug 22, 2011)

savannah77 said:


> Well at least you (like S.A) have crime stats. Most (gross majority) of the third world can't even provide them due to lacking the infrastructure like hospitals, police and morgues. S.A of countries that provide stats is the 12th most violent country in the world. Nothing to be proud about but I think there's a fair correlation to be made between crime and poverty by assuming most of the countries who can't provide stats are worse than here.
> 
> The rough point is that there is nothing unique about crime in S.A although we know there are people out there that push that angle pretending crime is getting worse here when it's actually massively improved. We're roughly in the same situation as Brazil or Russia (our Brics brothers). What's unique about us is we have a self hating element of expats who left the country who think they make their lives better (or at least feel better) by portraying the situation as far worse than it really is. It's all to do with them wanting S.A to be portrayed as a failure under black rule, but that elephant in the room they'll never admit to.





Exactly. These so called ex pats are banking on a failure and it is going to be just the opposite. So, I say if you dont like it so much. if you think it is so bad. If you think the government is gonna kill all the Boars>>>> then its best that you stay away. :clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2:


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## fromthe hood (Aug 22, 2011)

jojo said:


> As I often point out, the international media tend to paint SA as a crime ridden and unruly country. So, rightly or wrongly thats how most people see it!
> 
> Jo xxx




Yes, and as my mom used to say: "people who let the media decide for them are SHEEP"


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

fromthe hood said:


> Yes, and as my mom used to say: "people who let the media decide for them are SHEEP"


thats how it is!

jo xx


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## savannah77 (Sep 28, 2011)

jojo said:


> As I often point out, the international media tend to paint SA as a crime ridden and unruly country. So, rightly or wrongly thats how most people see it!
> 
> Jo xxx


Wrongly. Just saying.

But I suppose there is always a technical truth to that argument. In reality though crime in S.A for the middle classed etc is really nothing close to the big deal the media paints it to be. As most expats here fit the description of middle classed this is an important point to be taken into consideration. I thought that was the O.P point and I agree.

I've read some reports that kids can't walk to school or people can't walk on the beach at night. Sometimes I read those reports stuck in traffic on my phone while watching kids walk to school or was walking on the beach (at night). I hope you understand my confusion at such claims.


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## savannah77 (Sep 28, 2011)

fromthe hood said:


> Exactly. These so called ex pats are banking on a failure and it is going to be just the opposite. So, I say if you dont like it so much. if you think it is so bad. If you think the government is gonna kill all the Boars>>>> then its best that you stay away. :clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2:


"Boers" not boars. Given all the hyperbole and crying wolf the "boers" chant I would have forgiven "bores" though.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

savannah77 said:


> Wrongly. Just saying.


I wouldnt know. But thats the point, you have the media implying its unruly and unsafe and for the millions who hear this from the only source they know. I had a friend who lived in SA for five years, she lived in a gated community and rarely ventured out. But when she had to, she said she would always lock her car while driving, always keep her handbag hidden under the seat and never stop at traffic lights eek ??!! I think it was more the fear of trouble than any anecdotal evidence tho???? She couldnt wait to get away from there and now lives in Spain

Jo xxx


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## savannah77 (Sep 28, 2011)

jojo said:


> I wouldnt know. But thats the point, you have the media implying its unruly and unsafe and for the millions who hear this from the only source they know. I had a friend who lived in SA for five years, she lived in a gated community and rarely ventured out. But when she had to, she said she would always lock her car while driving, always keep her handbag hidden under the seat and never stop at traffic lights eek ??!! I think it was more the fear of trouble than any anecdotal evidence tho???? She couldnt wait to get away from there and now lives in Spain
> 
> Jo xxx


It's a free country (these days anyway) so that is their right. I know soccer mommies who thought killer african bees were going to kill everyone in the U.S.A. Neurosis is nothing new but we should strive to be objective and rational in life and mostly laugh off those who live in a web of fear when in reality these terrible things their imaginations come up with are very unlikely to happen. But it would be fascist of me to insist people write of their irrational fears. God forbid I do that and something happens to them. Not my prerogative. 


BUT...what we shouldn't do is encourage these irrational thoughts by scaremongering and promoting alarmism. That's not psychologically healthy.

I think what lacks in debates about the crime situation from the perspective of an outsider is an understanding of the scaremongering dooms day agenda of the far right ( and a understanding of the propoganda we experenced in our history) who are so noisy about this issue. In reality most South Africans of the middle class enjoy healthy and happy lives with very little threat of violent crime. But they seldom take the time to come online and put to rest the crazy rantings of the extreme right (or white supremacists by another name.) Again , just stating the obvious.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

savannah77 said:


> BUT...what we shouldn't do is encourage these irrational thoughts by scaremongering and promoting alarmism. That's not psychologically healthy.


I agree, but by the same token we shouldnt encourage the possible irrational thoughts that its safe, cos there are posters on here who have a different view of SA and will tell you that it ISNT SAFE??!


Theres no point in arguing for either side, its right depending on your experience, lifestyle and where you are or have been

Jo xxx


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## savannah77 (Sep 28, 2011)

jojo said:


> I agree, but by the same token we shouldnt encourage the possible irrational thoughts that its safe, cos there are posters on here who have a different view of SA and will tell you that it ISNT SAFE??!
> 
> 
> Theres no point in arguing for either side, its right depending on your experience, lifestyle and where you are or have been
> ...


Maybe I wasn't clear. It's people's god given right to be over cautious if that is their cup of tea. But we must also balance out some of the hyperbolic claims that float around and needlessly scare people about South Africa. 

I think if you are the type of person who sees a boogie man in every closet that you aren't likely to be considering South Africa as a place to live anyway. Mute point really. You deserve to know the facts and they are as I have stated them. 

Violent crime in S.A is very high for those in the risk group. For those not in the risk group (middle class etc) it's much less so and doesn't deserve the terrible hyperbolic reputation it has. Again just stating the balanced rational perspective. Use it or don't use it. You decide.

I mean as an example if you have been offered your dream job in S.A and turn it down because you think you will be killed, that's more than a little irrational. Comprehende ?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

savannah77 said:


> Maybe I wasn't clear. It's people's god given right to be over cautious if that is their cup of tea. But we must also balance out some of the hyperbolic claims that float around and needlessly scare people about South Africa.
> 
> I think if you are the type of person who sees a boogie man in every closet that you aren't likely to be considering South Africa as a place to live anyway. Mute point really. You deserve to know the facts and they are as I have stated them.
> 
> ...




.......unless you've had personal experience or know of someone who has had problems???? 

If I was offered my dream job in SA, yes I would turn it down, as I mentioned I had a friend who lived there and hated it - spent her life worried and scared. I do listen to the media and sadly the picture portrayed is that SA is unruly and unsettled with too much poverty. The fact that I'd be a stranger and know little of the lifestyle or the regime there, I personally would feel very insecure there. For all its faults, the UK is somewhere I at least understand!

Jo xxx


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## savannah77 (Sep 28, 2011)

jojo said:


> .......unless you've had personal experience or know of someone who has had problems????
> 
> If I was offered my dream job in SA, yes I would turn it down, as I mentioned I had a friend who lived there and hated it - spent her life worried and scared. I do listen to the media and sadly the picture portrayed is that SA is unruly and unsettled with too much poverty. The fact that I'd be a stranger and no little of the lifestyle or the regime there, I personally would feel very insecure there. For all its faults, the UK is somewhere I at least understand!
> 
> Jo xxx


Well that's you and you are welcome to your views.

Maybe makes you not the best person to moderate a S.A forum given your admitted prejudice but I'm all for freedom of expression so help yourself to it.

If I may say that the fact you would turn down your dream job just because it was based in S.A makes your perceptions likely to be highly comprimised by alarmism and hyperbole. The gross majority of expats in S.A are very happy. 20k brits a year meet that description.

Or 340 000 people in the last 17 years. But I suppose they are all wrong by your thinking. If we can describe what your mind does as that.


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

Savannah

I only have limited internet access, hence the lateness of my reply.

My statement wasn't anecdotal at all and in fact I lived in the area until a week ago and knew many/most of the people involved..... however, all you have to do is google the global peace index and see how RSA (which scores 118 incidentally) compares to other countries.

I love RSA and indeed all of Africa and have seen large parts of it but one never underestimate it or it's inhabitants and if does forget that, they're liable to get themselves and others very badly hurt at best


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

savannah77 said:


> Well that's you and you are welcome to your views.
> 
> Maybe makes you not the best person to moderate a S.A forum given your admitted prejudice but I'm all for freedom of expression so help yourself to it.
> 
> ...


Moderation isnt about beliefs, ideals or knowledge of the country, its about making sure people on here adhere to the rules of the forum. Evenso, I have no preconceived ideas and from what you've just said suggests that unless people agree with you, then they're wrong - your opinion is fine but so is mine!

Jo x


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## savannah77 (Sep 28, 2011)

travelling-man said:


> Savannah
> 
> I only have limited internet access, hence the lateness of my reply.
> 
> My statement wasn't anecdotal at all and in fact I lived in the area until a week ago and knew many/most of the people involved..... however, all you have to do is google the global peace index and see how RSA (which scores 118 incidentally) compares to other countries.


Please explain in detail this index to me and how it is gathered. If you are trying to say South Africans of different "races" are unhappy with each other that would be a statement of the obvious. The challenge is to stop this...no ?


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## savannah77 (Sep 28, 2011)

jojo said:


> Moderation isnt about beliefs, ideals or knowledge of the country, its about making sure people on here adhere to the rules of the forum. Evenso, I have no preconceived ideas and from what you've just said suggests that unless people agree with you, then they're wrong - your opinion is fine but so is mine!
> 
> Jo x


So you deny that your views don't project a certain perspective about South Africa ?


Interesting.

I think it's obvious you align with a pessimistic perspective of Africa in general. You are free to deny this but I don't think many people will consider you sincere.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

savannah77 said:


> So you deny that your views don't project a certain perspective about South Africa ?
> 
> 
> Interesting.



Like I say, the worlds media do not paint a rosy picture of SA. My views are fairly open, I dont know and have never stated that I do! I do know that no country is 100% safe and therefore I personally stick to places that I know and understand. One things for sure, if there genuinly wasnt a problem in SA, I doubt they'd be so many people arguing about it!??? You dont hear many people banging on about how safe Austria (for example) is! So all this talk actually can work against those who protest its peacefulness - whats that saying "methinks thou dost protest too much" But I genuinely dont know!

jo xxx


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## savannah77 (Sep 28, 2011)

jojo said:


> Like I say, the worlds media do not paint a rosy picture of SA. My views are fairly open, I dont know and have never stated that I do! I do know that no country is 100% safe and therefore I personally stick to places that I know and understand. One things for sure, if there genuinly wasnt a problem in SA, I doubt they'd be so many people arguing about it!??? You dont hear many people banging on about how safe Austria (for example) is! So all this talk actually can work against those who protest its peacefulness - whats that saying "methinks thou dost protest too much" But I genuinely dont know!
> 
> jo xxx



Just be wary of those who pretend they speak out of good intention and concern when in fact their agenda is to overstate and fearmonger. I have lived many years in s.a and don't know anyone ever affected by violent crime and its not at all something I ever expect I wll be affected by. My maid on tthe other hand can tell you lots of stories about violent crime she has witnessed in the squatter areas. 

A lot of people arguing about crime are really arguing about what was better : apartheid or black rule. If you were south african that would be obvious to you that is the real debate going on.


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## savannah77 (Sep 28, 2011)

For the record its better now than during apartheid in almost every single way.


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

Savannah

I don't condone the Apartheid years/policies in any way but to suggest things are better now than then is questionable.

The Rand is weaker, the country isn't run anywhere near as effeciently, schools and hospitals are a shodow of what they were, crime and corruption is many times worse now and the skills base is vastly reduced...... there's also more poverty in the country now than then. 

Sure, the blacks have more freedom as they quite rightly should have but I'd bet that's about the only way things are better now than then.

As for my explaining the Global Peace Index to you...... I'm not your secretary so I suggest you look it up yourself, just as I had to.


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## drumultaberei (Feb 2, 2010)

I agree with jojo, being amoderator doesn't have anything to do with his/her views about SA.
As for how safety it is in SA as a white man, I only know one thing: many of them fled to other english-speaking countries out of fear and I've heard of immigrants who were in heaven there until the regim changed and they had to flee to another safer country. They couldn't bear the pressure of having to sleep with the gun under the pillow. 
Even if it weren't a real death threat upon their heads one cannot wait to be murdered to take the other path as it would be too late.

Apartheid was a shame on the humankind and it needed to be abolished, unfortunately freedom wasn't well understood by everybody. I don't know how things worked there but it's not healthy to keep a huge population under deep poverty.


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## savannah77 (Sep 28, 2011)

drumultaberei said:


> I agree with jojo, being amoderator doesn't have anything to do with his/her views about SA.
> As for how safety it is in SA as a white man, I only know one thing: many of them fled to other english-speaking countries out of fear and I've heard of immigrants who were in heaven there until the regim changed and they had to flee to another safer country. They couldn't bear the pressure of having to sleep with the gun under the pillow.
> Even if it weren't a real death threat upon their heads one cannot wait to be murdered to take the other path as it would be too late.
> 
> Apartheid was a shame on the humankind and it needed to be abolished, unfortunately freedom wasn't well understood by everybody. I don't know how things worked there but it's not healthy to keep a huge population under deep poverty.


You realise the "sleeping with a gun under the pillow" is an urban myth ? One thing white South African expat do well is mythology. In fact they're on par with the ancient Greeks. I suppose we don't stop at red traffic lights too not even to avoid riding over all the dead bodies lying everywhere in the streets ?



Nobody keeps anyone in poverty except the old Apartheid government. In fact the middle class has more that doubled in S.A in the past 10 years and according to SAIRR the average income is up 180% (inflation related).


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## drumultaberei (Feb 2, 2010)

Sleeping with the gun was not a myth, that's what they did and they did what they saw around, at the neighbours.

Whan I was talking about poverty I meant during the apartheid era, too much poverty brings violance and other bad things.

To be sincere the way I perceive SA is a place of uncertainties. Is the economy growing there? Is the society better since Mandela was elected, I mean better for the natives?


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## savannah77 (Sep 28, 2011)

drumultaberei said:


> Sleeping with the gun was not a myth, that's what they did and they did what they saw around, at the neighbours.
> 
> Whan I was talking about poverty I meant during the apartheid era, too much poverty brings violance and other bad things.
> 
> To be sincere the way I perceive SA is a place of uncertainties. Is the economy growing there? Is the society better since Mandela was elected, I mean better for the natives?


GDP doubled between 2002-2008. The greatest ever period of S.A economic growth. All the time the population only grew 1% on average a year. This means the avcerage person got richer. Despite what some people will try and tell you yes, things are better in S.A than anytime in the past (world wide recessions taken into consideration).

Anyone who told you they slept with a gun can probably be written off as a paranoid lucatic or a liar.


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## drumultaberei (Feb 2, 2010)

Lunatic or liar? That's a bit insulting for people I happen to trust.
Why though so many refugees in Canada from the SA white population, people I worked with and I can asure you are sain?
Why so many clashes between natives that left many dead? Are they paranoic and untrue info too?


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## drumultaberei (Feb 2, 2010)

Anger over more farm murders: News24: South Africa: News 
Probably the cows did it.

The people I was mentioning about lived on a farm, fire arms under the pillow.


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## savannah77 (Sep 28, 2011)

drumultaberei said:


> Lunatic or liar? That's a bit insulting for people I happen to trust.
> Why though so many refugees in Canada from the SA white population, people I worked with and I can asure you are sain?
> Why so many clashes between natives that left many dead? Are they paranoic and untrue info too?


No disrespect but I wouldn't trust too much of what these people claim happens in South Africa or at least take it with a truckload of salt. Especially if they are claiiming people sleep with guns under their pillows and other such rubbish. You must understand there was a lot of fear spread around during apartheid about a black backlash or as we call it "Die swart gevaar" (The black danger) and some people could just never shrug off the propaganda. I'm nto saying there aren't people who left S.A because they were geniunly scared, I'm just saying their fear was very likely not based in anything rational. Our media reinforces this at every opportunity and almost never reports facts about how crime is down and very seldom affects the middle classes etc. That doesn't sell newspapers so often the fearful perceptions sadly remain. 

But for the gross majority of middle classed people in S.A they are thinking more about rugby or golf or fishing to ever come on here and tell you how crime for normal people in S.A is over stated (which is in bucket loads.)


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## savannah77 (Sep 28, 2011)

drumultaberei said:


> Anger over more farm murders: News24: South Africa: News
> Probably the cows did it.
> 
> The people I was mentioning about lived on a farm, fire arms under the pillow.


I am a "farmer" (or at least I live in a farming area and could be categorised as that demographic). Almost everyone I see on a daily basis is a farmer. Nobody sleep with a gun under their pillow. If they did I'd smack them for being stupid. After all that's dangerous to them and their spouse ! 

I bet you heard about the farm genocide from them too ? But in a country where 40 people are murdered a day (almost all black young and male) how come only 33 farmers and family(of all races) were killed last year according to the T.A.U (right winged farmers rights association) out of close to a million farmers and family? (It should go without saying of course that 1 is too many. )


Just be careful what (or more specifically who) you believe. Not everyone has a clear agenda of concern for their tales and wolf crying. Please feel free to ask me for links to anything I claim you want me to back up.


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## savannah77 (Sep 28, 2011)

To get back on point. The claim is not that crime doesn't exist. It's that is a very overstated phenomenon. I would strongly agree that for certain demographics crime is highly overstated. For others it is understated. It's just that the demographic is affects the least tends to pretend it is the most affected and that's just not true. As an expat in S.A you are very likely part of the safest demographic by a long way and the levels of crime you will experience are nominal for a developing country and in no way "sky high" or unique.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

savannah77 said:


> Nobody keeps anyone in poverty except the old Apartheid government. In fact the middle class has more that doubled in S.A in the past 10 years and according to SAIRR the average income is up 180% (inflation related).


Didnt you say in a recent post, and I quote "My maid on the other hand can tell you lots of stories about violent crime she has witnessed in the squatter areas." ? That rather suggests that all isnt brilliant in SA yet?????



savannah77 said:


> Just be careful what (or more specifically who) you believe. Not everyone has a clear agenda of concern for their tales and wolf crying. Please feel free to ask me for links to anything I claim you want me to back up.


It would help your cause a little more if you could only get the world media to agree with you - sadly, they tend to claim more credibility and reach more people. What they tend to imply is that SA still has a long way to go before it can be considered a peaceful and orderly nation. You need to take your comments to them and get them to put the record straight

Jo xxxx


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## savannah77 (Sep 28, 2011)

jojo said:


> It would help your cause a little more if you could only get the world media to agree with you - sadly, they tend to claim more credibility and reach more people. What they tend to imply is that SA still has a long way to go before it can be considered a peaceful and orderly nation. You need to take your comments to them and get them to put the record straight
> 
> Jo xxxx


The world media is influenced by the South African media. And they write what people want to read: alamist sensationalism. 

Actually what's interesting is the people who study the actual indicaters of crime etc universally agree that things in S.A are getting much better. But this doesn't sell newspapers. Fear does. Ho hum.

At least I find the disconect interesting. Remember the world cup where everyone who visited was going to get killed ? Did anything like that happen ? Nope. Has there ever been a tourist murder problem in S.A ? Nope. 

Funny though that all you can read about is this scaremongering drivel. Sad really what fear and propaganda does to people. Again luckily for S.a people come here every day and see for themselves that it's not really a dangerous place. 20k brits a year make their home here and for a good reason. It's a wonderful country.


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## savannah77 (Sep 28, 2011)

jojo said:


> I had a friend who lived there for 5 years and she said altho she didnt ever experience any violence, it was simply known that you didnt stop at traffic lights, you didnt ever have your handbag on display and you always stayed within the confounds of your own little bubble.
> 
> Jo xxx


Your friend didn't stop at a red traffic light ? That's madness ! Apart from the fact she's a criminal (I have never seen someone run a red light blatantly more in S.A than anywhere else)She must have had countless near traffic accidents ! No wonder she thinks S.A is dangerous !

Also I have yet to see a lady of the appropriate age without a handbag in S.A. If they are hiding them they are doing a very bad job. Your friend sold you some serious porkies.

I suggest you ask a few normal South Africans if they stop at traffice lights. You will find 99.9999% of them do (let's assume there's one or two reckless moron drivers out there like anywhere else). Then with this evidence in hand perhaps a little enlightenment might arise within you as to exactly how truthful and serious you should consider your "friend".

And when the blatant truth arives that she is speaking rubbish (which she is doing on a massive scale), perhaps you will start to see my point about how over stated crime is in S.A.

But I don't know. The 100% record I have of everyone I observe on the roads on the way to work or somewhere stopping at red traffic lights (including myself) is maybe an hallucination ? Or all those handbags I see woman walking around with openly ? I must need anti psychotics according to your friend !

According to me she either needs them or truth serem. Because she's speaking absolute nonsense !

And if me and my friends etc stay in the confounds of our "little bubble" it's a pretty huge bubble. We're (and almost everyone we knows) off fishing, boating, golfing, visiting night clubs and restuarants all over the damn country all the time.

I don't know where your psychotic friend reportsed having these experiences if they were real experiences and not imagined, but it certainly wasn't South Africa.


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## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

No real security risks in SA? No worse than other parts of the world?

Remember the over worked cliche' about the boiling frog??? Or can't see the wood for the trees? 

Sadly it is like that for many who live in SA - from some new expats to the place and also some of those who have never left. As one who was born in the region, began my working life in SA during the 80's, left in the mid 90's and still have business interests there so travel at least 4 times per year, I feel that I have enough experience to be able to contribute to this thread. Over the years I have observed at first hand, a steady decline in day to day lifestyle standards and security. Yes, you may be lucky not to ever experience a problem in SA. However, let us not be fooled into thinking that this makes it a safe place! Each time I return, I notice further security arrangements that people have made - another level of razor wire, an electric security fence attachment, armed security patrols etc etc. 

Savannah waxes lyrical here about how it is somehow unusual for people to run a red light? At night it is very common to do this and, whilst not legal, it has become a normalised activity. Informally, this is the advice given to you by the car hire companies for driving at night in urban areas. To also suggest that the reports of crime are somehow skewed by the international media are frankly ridiculous! The media report what is there - if there is a story they dig until they find more and keep on digging. 

Clearly there is a security problem in SA that affects daily life for most people and those that can, modify their behaviour to take account of this. Obviously those most at risk are the poorer members of society who live in areas that are more densley populated and therefore there is a higher statistical risk of coming into contact with criminals. If you are fortunate enough to lived in a middle class area, then you will have seen a steady progression over the years from basic burglar bars through to high tech security systems, razor wire and armed response units at your home. Because you can afford it. But they are not for show or just window dressing - you implement this level of security to combat the level of risk associated, whether this risk is real or perceived. If you are unsure if there is a serious security issue in SA, just use Google to search for "security companies in South Africa" - and see what is on offer! It is one of the success stories in the economics of South Africa!! A coincidence? I think not.


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## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

Excerpt from Tripadvisor.co.uk about driving in SA

"After dark, when approaching an intersection, whether it be with traffic lights or stop streets, most South Africans will slow down, rather than stop. If there’s traffic, then the road rules apply. If there is no traffic, some guidance issued was to treat it as a yield, and proceed through if safe. The traffic department has often issued this guidance in the past, as waiting by yourself at intersections after dark is not advisable."

South Africa: Driving in South Africa - TripAdvisor

Seems Savannah DOES live in a bubble..........


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## savannah77 (Sep 28, 2011)

Zimtony said:


> Excerpt from Tripadvisor.co.uk about driving in SA
> 
> "After dark, when approaching an intersection, whether it be with traffic lights or stop streets, most South Africans will slow down, rather than stop. If there’s traffic, then the road rules apply. If there is no traffic, some guidance issued was to treat it as a yield, and proceed through if safe. The traffic department has often issued this guidance in the past, as waiting by yourself at intersections after dark is not advisable."
> 
> ...


No sorry man that's plain nonsense. I don't know ANYONE who does that for any motive other than to save time. I'm not going to sit here and pretend it's true because some guide says it islike you're trying to do. I know you know this isn't true because you have lived here so why are you claiming it is ? What's your motive and agenda ?

I'll answer for you : Scaremongering and alarmism.

At best I'll say this happens in one or two suburbs of JHB that there's no reason to have to be visiting at night anyway. AT the very BEST that might be possible that a few people would do that. To claim South Africans don't stop at red traffic lights at anytime of the day is pure utter nonsense and I hope rational people are involved in this forum who can confirm the absurdity of that claim and hence confirm how dishonest some people vcan be when they prortay the extent of crime in S.A. Which aligns well with the claim "crime is S.A is way over hyped".

Anyway I noticed I got two infractions for informing people the blatant, basic, simple, honest truth that it is not common for people to not stop at red traffic lights IN THE SLIGHTEST for fear of danger. But I guess you can fool some people by appearing to their neurotic sensibilities a lot of the time if you use scaremongering and alarmism. Easiest, slyest , unoble, back handed trick in the book. Big sarcastic pat on the back.

So I suppose if I want to be allowed to post here I must tow the line. 

Ok yes...people don't stop at red traffic lights, and everyone has aids and is murdered at least 3 times a day before breakfast and eaten by dogs with dog aids (which every dog has).


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

savannah77 said:


> No sorry man that's plain nonsense. I don't know ANYONE who does that for any motive other than to save time. I'm not going to sit here and pretend it's true because some guide says it islike you're trying to do. I know you know this isn't true because you have lived here so why are you claiming it is ? What's your motive and agenda ?
> 
> I'll answer for you : Scaremongering and alarmism.



You are funny! You come on here periodically using different names and proclaim that SA is safe!! You're the only one to do it. The fact that you feel the need to do it suggests theres a problem and you get so abusive when anyone disagrees with you - all those points tell me that theres a problem in SA - especially the verbal abuse. Peaceful people in peaceful countries dont feel the need....


Jo xxx


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## savannah77 (Sep 28, 2011)

jojo said:


> You are funny! You come on here periodically using different names and proclaim that SA is safe!! You're the only one to do it. The fact that you feel the need to do it suggests theres a problem and you get so abusive when anyone disagrees with you - all those points tell me that theres a problem in SA - especially the verbal abuse. Peaceful people in peaceful countries dont feel the need....
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Did I start the thread ? So firstly I'm not the only one.

And I think at best you will find the same two or three people making the histrionic claims (here anyway) that's it's so incredibly dangerous etc. The truth uis in the middle and yes...crime in S.A is highly over stated. I don't say it doesn't exist but it's certainly true that it's highly overstated.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

savannah77 said:


> Did I start the thread ? So firstly I'm not the only one.
> 
> And I think at best you will find the same two or three people making the histrionic claims (here anyway) that's it's so incredibly dangerous etc. The truth uis in the middle and yes...crime in S.A is highly over stated. I don't say it doesn't exist but it's certainly true that it's highly overstated.


........... and the world media. i'm sure they exaggerate, but nonetheless there is no smoke without fire. Sadly, you seem to be too aggressive and insulting to those who disagree with you to be what I would consider a reliable source of information. Maybe you're so used to life there, you dont know what peace is like???

Jo


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## savannah77 (Sep 28, 2011)

jojo said:


> ........... and the world media. i'm sure they exaggerate, but nonetheless there is no smoke without fire. Sadly, you seem to be too aggressive and insulting to those who disagree with you to be what I would consider a reliable source of information. Maybe you're so used to life there, you dont know what peace is like???
> 
> Jo


Oh the media exaggerate ? Odin no ! They would never do that !

(end sarcasm)

And stop going on about aggression. Someone made a rubbish claim (people don't stop at red traffic lights) and I just claimed it's rubbish. No aggression just a little bit of "laughing off someone in the face of an idiotic statement" perhaps. And it is rubbish. A much truer statement but not perfect would "be everyone stops at red traffic lights". So when someone says "nobody does" why does his absurd "opinion" warrant merit and why should I refrain from correcting it ? 

Why isn't truth more important that being polite ? After all it's not very polite anyway to maliciously lie about a place as is being done by the people maiking this (and so many other) bogus claim. And yes, I 100% believe they know it is a bogus claim and that it will harm people's perceptions when they make it so to describe it as a "malicious lie" is not unfair. Why don't you rather call for people to stop malicious lies rather that obsessing about me calling for rationality and honesty here ?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

savannah77 said:


> Oh the media exaggerate ? Odin no ! They would never do that !
> 
> (end sarcasm)
> 
> ...



You always get aggressive, you never have a democratic discussion, you immediately start calling things you disagree with "rubbish", "loony", "malicious".... and so on, when people disagree with you. As for your statements being true - they're simply your opinion and others have theirs - you cant change that. One things for sure other countries dont get so much controversy about whether they're peaceful or not. Suggesting there's no question to answer.

Leave it, you're not doing your cause any favours. 

Jo


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## savannah77 (Sep 28, 2011)

jojo said:


> You always get aggressive, you never have a democratic discussion, you immediately start calling things you disagree with "rubbish", "loony", "malicious".... and so on, when people disagree with you. As for your statements being true - they're simply your opinion and others have theirs - you cant change that. One things for sure other countries dont get so much controversy about whether they're peaceful or not. Suggesting there's no question to answer.
> 
> Leave it, you're not doing your cause any favours.
> 
> Jo


Cause ? Asking for people to not spread malicious scaremongering lies and hyperbole. I should be ashamed of that ?

Let me show you the cause of people who constantly over state the bad about South Africa. Here go educate yourself with what you're really dealing with and then you might start to actually get the modus operandi of certain people on your forum who you are doing a wonderful job of enabling. Perhaps you are sympatic with the extreme right ? Go have a read and let's see. 

I Luv SA
Mike Smith's Political Commentary

You seems to have a negative confirmation bias about Africa and seem really prepared to believe anything negative so the inherent prejudice on those pages might go over your head. So might the absurdity of their claims. But let's give you a chance to see what I see.

(Start sarcasm) 

Nice guys huh ? Lovely honest chaps. Just common concerned citizens, not malicious biggoted racists at all. People like this have no agenda to overstate the bad about South Africa and spread alarmist untrue "facts" about it like "people don't even stop at red traffic lights".

(End sarcasm.)

Anyway it's you who has to sleep at night be cheer leading this bunch of right winged extremists. The iluvsa site was mentioned 5 times by the killer in Norway as an inspiration for his views just by the way. And if you think certain members here are not silent supporters of the modus operandi used by those blogs you're very wrong.


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## savannah77 (Sep 28, 2011)

And no the fact that people in the mass majority do stop at red traffic lights all the time in South Africa is not my "opinion". It's a simple, testable, observable fact. A fact that zimtony himself knows to be true (if indeed he has ever lived in S.A) but for some reason he perpetuates the myth. That sends alarm bells off in my head as to what is Zimtonies real agenda.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

savannah77 said:


> And no the fact that people in the mass majority do stop at red traffic lights all the time in South Africa is not my "opinion". It's a simple, testable, observable fact. A fact that zimtony himself knows to be true (if indeed he has ever lived in S.A) but for some reason he perpetuates the myth. That sends alarm bells off in my head as to what is Zimtonies real agenda.


So what you're now saying is that Zimtony must be lying about living in SA cos he doesnt agree with you (thats insulting and rude)??? You need to learn so much about discussions and diplomacy. Everyone has different opinions. We dont all start to accuse those who dont share ours of lying, or being loonies, or talking rubbish or even worse, start spewing out irrelevant "statistics" that prove nothing. We listen, we take note, we take into account that they may live in a different part, with a different lifestyle and we debate like adults - without having a tantrum cos they dont agree with us!!

I'm sure you're right for your little bubble, its nice and safe and you feel secure - others feel differently. It doesnt mean they're wrong and deserve insulting, it just means their experiences are different. 

When you learn that, you'll become a wiser and calmer person.

thats my last word on this subject.

Jo


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## savannah77 (Sep 28, 2011)

jojo said:


> So what you're now saying is that Zimtony must be lying about living in SA cos he doesnt agree with you (thats insulting and rude)??? You need to learn so much about discussions and diplomacy. Everyone has different opinions. We dont all start to accuse those who dont share ours of lying, or being loonies, or talking rubbish or even worse, start spewing out irrelevant "statistics" that prove nothing. We listen, we take note, we take into account that they may live in a different part, with a different lifestyle and we debate like adults - without having a tantrum cos they dont agree with us!!
> 
> I'm sure you're right for your little bubble, its nice and safe and you feel secure - others feel differently. It doesnt mean they're wrong and deserve insulting, it just means their experiences are different.
> 
> ...


Again I'm not stating an opinion. This is not subjective like "Apples are yummy". It's objectivly falsifiable. I'm stating a testable, verifiable fact. In fact why don't we test it ? 

Those who live in South Africa may answer : Do you and most people you know stop at red traffic lights ? And if you don't what is the reason ?

I already know the correct answer because I drive in South Africa every single day and I know people (on the massive majority almost with exception) stop at red traffic lights. I observe this every single day of my life and I have never been known to hallucinate so it's an exercise in futility to actually ask unless I took some lsd by misatake. But at least this way we can weed out the b#llsh!tters I suppose.

Just a last word to put into perspective how abdurd this claim is. Another question : Do you stop at green traffic lights too ? Because that must be true if others don't stop at red ones. B#llocks !


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Thread closed as the only poster isnt prepared to have a rational debate.

Jo


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