# Lost Voting Rights



## Rodph

As a longer term British expatriate I find that I have lost my right to vote in my country of birth the UK. Portugese expats are treated much better, however, as described below.

According to the Constitution of the Republic of Portugal, the single-chamber Assembly of the Republic "is the representative assembly of all Portuguese citizens." Therefore the Portuguese living abroad have the same right to vote in elections for the Assembly as citizens living in the home country.

Portuguese voters residing outside Portugal are grouped into two electoral constituencies - Europe and the rest of the world - each one of which elects two Assembly members.

Expat voter registration takes place mainly at Portuguese consulates. If there is no consulate in a particular country, then registration is normally carried out at the Embassy or another designated registration centre. There are around 200 registration centres abroad, some of which cover more than one country.

In addition, Portuguese citizens living abroad are represented on the Conselho das Comunidades Portuguesas (CCP, Council of Portuguese Communities), the advisory body to Government policies on emigration and Portuguese communities abroad. The CCP is composed of 73 members, 63 of whom are elected by universal, direct and secret ballot of the voters listed in the electoral rolls of the consular posts, and the remaining 10 members are appointed.

In the case of us expat Brits we can continue to register to vote in the UK for up to 15 years but we do not have the Portugese system of local registration e.g. in consulates and we'd have to organise a proxy vote due to the inherent delays in receiving the voting documents and then mailing a postal vote.

Compared with the Portugese it's almost as if the British government doesn't want us to continue to vote, claiming that we have severed our links with the UK after 15 years and also maintaining a rather inconvenient system of registering and voting. I was wondering what the British expatriate community in Portugal thinks about the value of still being able to vote in UK general elections as we are pressing for the removal of the 15 year rule?
Rod


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## canoeman

It's only since 1985 that UK expats have been able to register and vote from overseas (except civil servants and the armed forces), initially for 5 then 20 and now 15 years, registering is ok, but as you say voting can really only be done by proxy. 

As I've chosen to live in Portugal I'm coming round to the view that I'd prefer to vote in Portuguese National Elections, as my ties with UK diminish year by year, rather than just the Portuguese local and EU elections that I can vote in.

I don't see any likelihood of UK Gov. altering the current 15 year rule, but yes given the opportunity I would vote in UK National Elections or referendums. 

Portugal's laws always been different and drafted to retain close links with their expat countrymen and descendants, UK you don't lose your citizenship but a lot of things reguire Residence, not sure which is best.


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## siobhanwf

I must admit that I don't really understand what the problem is :confused2::confused2:

I like you am an expat. Twice over.
I left Ireland in 1968 for the UK and then left the UK in 2006 to move to Portugal, Both moves were by choice.

Having left Ireland I never felt I had any right to vote there as I was living and earning in the UK and contributing nothing to Ireland.

I now feel the same way living here in Portugal. I chose to leave UK so why should I want to vote there?

Having left the UK so many years ago that I can't see why you feel you should have any right to vote there - or why you'd want to particularly. You have cut your personal ties, apart from family, with the UK.

Now voting here in Portugal is where I would want to have a say. I live here. I already have the right to vote here in Portugal in the Portuguese local and EU elections. Things that happen here WILL affect me.


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## lagosguy

siobhanwf said:


> I must admit that I don't really understand what the problem is :confused2::confused2:
> 
> I like you am an expat. Twice over.
> I left Ireland in 1968 for the UK and then left the UK in 2006 to move to Portugal, Both moves were by choice.
> 
> Having left Ireland I never felt I had any right to vote there as I was living and earning in the UK and contributing nothing to Ireland.
> 
> I now feel the same way living here in Portugal. I chose to leave UK so why should I want to vote there?
> 
> Having left the UK so many years ago that I can't see why you feel you should have any right to vote there - or why you'd want to particularly. You have cut your personal ties, apart from family, with the UK.
> 
> Now voting here in Portugal is where I would want to have a say. I live here. I already have the right to vote here in Portugal in the Portuguese local and EU elections. Things that happen here WILL affect me.



Couldn't agree more. If an expat is still making some kind of financial contribution to the UK economy (for example, unlike those retired from the private sector, public sector employees' pensions have to be paid into a UK bank account net of tax) then it isn't unreasonable for them to demand the right to participate in UK elections. But, if somebody has left the UK behind for 15 years in every respect, why should they expect their views to be taken into account.

I have a similar view about the proposal that keeps getting raised, to reduce the voting age to 16. At that age an individual hasn't contributed anything to the country, so why should he or she be given any say in how my taxes are spent?


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## Rodph

If we think then that we don't have the right to vote in the UK because we no longer contribute, I wonder why France, Germany, Spain, Portugal and Italy have systems which encourage and permit their expats to continue to vote?
On the question of "no taxation without representation" or that I should be able to vote in the UK if I continue to pay taxes there even as an expat, the British government has responded that the right to vote is not necessarily related to paying tax since some foreign nationals resident and paying taxes in the UK are also not allowed to vote!
I believe that Irish nationals (who immediately lose their right to vote when they become expat) once resident in the UK can vote as also can Commonwealth citizens once resident. Where does that leave us expat Brits in the pecking order?
Rod


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## lagosguy

Rodph said:


> If we think then that we don't have the right to vote in the UK because we no longer contribute, I wonder why France, Germany, Spain, Portugal and Italy have systems which encourage and permit their expats to continue to vote?
> On the question of "no taxation without representation" or that I should be able to vote in the UK if I continue to pay taxes there even as an expat, the British government has responded that the right to vote is not necessarily related to paying tax since some foreign nationals resident and paying taxes in the UK are also not allowed to vote!
> I believe that Irish nationals (who immediately lose their right to vote when they become expat) once resident in the UK can vote as also can Commonwealth citizens once resident. Where does that leave us expat Brits in the pecking order?
> Rod


Well, I guess the Irish and Commonwealth citizens (or subjects in the case of many Commonwealth countries since they still have the Queen as their head of state) gain the right to vote by virtue of living in Britain and (theoretically at least) making a contribution to national ilfe. Why they get that right and other foreign nationals do not is because Ireland and the Commonmweaslth are regarded as having special historical links to Britain which other countries don't have.

As to why France, Germany, Spain, Portugal and Italy have systems which encourage and permit their expats to continue to vote, that's obviously because the governemtns of those countries have so decreed it. Some do: others don't. Britain, as ever, compromises: it does for 15 years, then it doesn't. Sounds fair to me. 

As to where it leaves expat Brits in the pecking order, I suppose you could argue that, after 15 years abroad with no lasting link to Britain, you have effectively ceased to be a Brit. That, of course, begs a whole different question about the meaning of nationality and how it's acquired (and lost).


Edited to add...Where I would agree with you is about the difficulties the government puts in the way of those wishing to vote during the 15 years after departure. That contasts markedly with the ridiculous lengths that the governments goes to to ensure that non-English-speaking UK residents are able to exercise their rights. Maybe you are just a casualty of the modern liberal world-view (alive and well in the modern Conservative Party) that the English are to be despised and, at every opportunity, made to pay for their past glories (or atrocities as the liberals see them).


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## Rodph

lagosguy said:


> Well, I guess the Irish and Commonwealth citizens (or subjects in the case of many Commonwealth countries since they still have the Queen as their head of state) gain the right to vote by virtue of living in Britain and (theoretically at least) making a contribution to national ilfe. Why they get that right and other foreign nationals do not is because Ireland and the Commonmweaslth are regarded as having special historical links to Britain which other countries don't have.
> 
> As to why France, Germany, Spain, Portugal and Italy have systems which encourage and permit their expats to continue to vote, that's obviously because the governemtns of those countries have so decreed it. Some do: others don't. Britain, as ever, compromises: it does for 15 years, then it doesn't. Sounds fair to me.
> 
> As to where it leaves expat Brits in the pecking order, I suppose you could argue that, after 15 years abroad with no lasting link to Britain, you have effectively ceased to be a Brit. That, of course, begs a whole different question about the meaning of nationality and how it's acquired (and lost).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edited to add...Where I would agree with you is about the difficulties the government puts in the way of those wishing to vote during the 15 years after departure. That contasts markedly with the ridiculous lengths that the governments goes to to ensure that non-English-speaking UK residents are able to exercise their rights. Maybe you are just a casualty of the modern liberal world-view (alive and well in the modern Conservative Party) that the English are to be despised and, at every opportunity, made to pay for their past glories (or atrocities as the liberals see them).


It's an interesting point you raise on nationality because even though you and I consider ourselves non-resident in the UK it is actually more difficult to lose your domicile in the UK, with certain tax implications. This has caught some very rich people out who have been unable to demonstrate that their real centre of economic activity (or that they have changed nationality) is outside the UK.

On the British government's attitude to expatriate voting rights by the way, we lobbied the Commons Select Committee which was considering Individual Electoral Registration (& which already applies to expats who have to register individually anyway). It is significant, therefore, that there are two references to overseas voters in the committee's report report. 
*The first mentions the inadequacy of the postal vote* (which most expats agree, a proxy vote being the only practical approach if you want to meet the voting deadline).
The second (pp. 99) states: The Committee also received written evidence from a number of *expatriates calling for the Government to abolish the current 15 year limit on voting in General Elections when living overseas*. Mark Harper responded that it was “*something that Government is considering at the moment, but we have not reached a decision”.*
Rod


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## lagosguy

Rodph said:


> It's an interesting point you raise on nationality because even though you and I consider ourselves non-resident in the UK it is actually more difficult to lose your domicile in the UK, with certain tax implications. This has caught some very rich people out who have been unable to demonstrate that their real centre of economic activity (or that they have changed nationality) is outside the UK.
> 
> On the British government's attitude to expatriate voting rights by the way, we lobbied the Commons Select Committee which was considering Individual Electoral Registration (& which already applies to expats who have to register individually anyway). It is significant, therefore, that there are two references to overseas voters in the committee's report report.
> *The first mentions the inadequacy of the postal vote* (which most expats agree, a proxy vote being the only practical approach if you want to meet the voting deadline).
> The second (pp. 99) states: The Committee also received written evidence from a number of *expatriates calling for the Government to abolish the current 15 year limit on voting in General Elections when living overseas*. Mark Harper responded that it was “*something that Government is considering at the moment, but we have not reached a decision”.*
> Rod



I'm one of those, who will never be able to give up my UK domicile status , because I draw a public service pension, which will require me always to have a UK bank account for it to be paid into.

Given the obssession with Human Rights in the UK at present, maybe I should launch a legal action against the UK government claiming my human right to give up my UK domicile status, which the government is preventing me from doing by insisting on paying my pension within the UK. It's no more ludicrous than some of the cases I've seen reported lately.


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## canoeman

lagosguy said:


> I'm one of those, who will never be able to give up my UK domicile status , because I draw a public service pension, which will require me always to have a UK bank account for it to be paid into.
> 
> G


Doesn't stop you from living elsewhere, UK banks accept Foreign address for an account.
I was under the impression that the only stipulation with a _public service pension_ was that it had to be taxed in UK, and if you required pension could be paid after tax to any account you nominated UK or otherwise.


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## Rodph

canoeman said:


> Doesn't stop you from living elsewhere, UK banks accept Foreign address for an account.
> I was under the impression that the only stipulation with a _public service pension_ was that it had to be taxed in UK, and if you required pension could be paid after tax to any account you nominated UK or otherwise.


Maybe I misunderstood but I think Lagosman already lives elsewhere. Where ever his pension is paid he still remains domiciled in the UK I think.

However, Lagosman you raised an interesting point on human rights. Harry Shindler a 90 year old WWII veteran has challenged the UK government on the 15-year ruling via the European Court of Human Rights, which has in turn asked the UK government for its response by the 28th October. The government's initial defence had been that Harry had severed all links with the UK after 15 years away. Harry's response (and he's had a lot of publicity as a WWII veteran e.g. on the BBC) was that how can this be when he has a bank account in the UK, regularly visits the UK, has relatives he regularly visits in the UK etc.
Although we have been given indications that there is a ceratin sympathy for his case, the UK government can only respond according to the existing legislation and so it will be interesting to see how his challenge turns out.
Rod


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## siobhanwf

canoeman said:


> Doesn't stop you from living elsewhere, UK banks accept Foreign address for an account.
> I was under the impression that the only stipulation with a _public service pension_ was that it had to be taxed in UK, and if you required pension could be paid after tax to any account you nominated UK or otherwise.


That is what happens to us Canoeman. 
All you need is a UK bank account. NO UK address needed
In fact part of hubby's pension comes from the UK. Taxed at source. Paid into a UK account. Then when he does a tax return in the UK all money is claimed back!!


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## canoeman

Present UK law requires that to be a Resident and entitled to the benefits that Residence gives one of which is voting if registered, it is a requirement that you reside in the UK for 183 days a year.
So a different issue to lenght of voting rights for Expats.

EU say you can't be a Resident of two countries at one time to which UK agreed.

UK as I see it has two options continue playing around with entitled voting years or a fundamental change to the rights of British Citizens in line with other countries.
Which do you think is more likely? 

"Where ever his pension is paid he still remains domiciled in the UK I think" your UK pension Civil or state can be paid anywhere you designate, you don't have to be _domiciled _in UK,.


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## Rodph

canoeman said:


> Present UK law requires that to be a Resident and entitled to the benefits that Residence gives one of which is voting if registered, it is a requirement that you reside in the UK for 183 days a year.
> So a different issue to lenght of voting rights for Expats.
> 
> EU say you can't be a Resident of two countries at one time to which UK agreed.
> 
> UK as I see it has two options continue playing around with entitled voting years or a fundamental change to the rights of British Citizens in line with other countries.
> Which do you think is more likely?
> 
> "Where ever his pension is paid he still remains domiciled in the UK I think" your UK pension Civil or state can be paid anywhere you designate, you don't have to be _domiciled _in UK,.


The current UK government is talking about trying to disengage from the EU Human Rights act and e.g. in a recent personal submission to the European Court of Human Rights for example, the UK's Attorney General argued that the issue of of prisoners' (and others') voting rights should be a matter for national governments only. There is certainly a big public feeling against the HR act and its perverse effects in the UK but I'm not sure about the government's chances of success!
Concerning country of domicile (which is different in law from non-residence) to change domicile you have to be able to demonstrate that you are now completely detached from the UK e.g. that you have changed your nationality or have no significant assets/family home of any value in the UK.
Rod


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## canoeman

Rodph said:


> Concerning country of domicile (which is different in law from non-residence) to change domicile you have to be able to demonstrate that you are now completely detached from the UK e.g. that you have changed your nationality or have no significant assets/family home of any value in the UK.
> Rod


I don't know enough about the difference between domicle & non-resident UK law to argue the point. This seems to be a reasonable explanation and is more to do with your tax status than anything else.
Non-domicile status: new legislation explained - Non-domicile status: new legislation explained 

You don't need to be_ domiciled_ to receive a UK Civil Service, State or private pension, you don't even need a UK bank account, unless that was a stipulation of the plan.

UK voting rights currently depend on Residence and a 15 year concession to UK Citizens living abroad, if you want change then it's this concession that can be altered if the Government want.

As I posted as I decided to move to Portugal, I'd rather be able to vote in their National elections, rather than just local and EU elections.

Other countries have basic different criteria for their citizens and the UK is hardly likely to rewrite the Magna Carta


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## Waterdog

Rodph, Glad you identified the difference between resident & domicile. Where as it is relatively easy to change your residency, it is extremely difficult to change your domicile status. As a rule you remain an UK domicile unless you can clearly demonstrate that you have left the UK for good & have no significant ties in that country (family, bank accounts, property etc.).

So what you may say. Well one of the many issues is UK inheritance tax liability, which in UK the is tied to your domicile status & is levied against your wealth worldwide. The individual exemption of £325,000 may look generous but the value of property can easily push one beyond the threshold.

So you can be an expat in Portugal & so forfit your right to vote in the UK & many UK benefits but in the final analysis still have a significant UK tax liability.

Doesn't seem very fair.


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## Rodph

Waterdog said:


> Rodph, Glad you identified the difference between resident & domicile. Where as it is relatively easy to change your residency, it is extremely difficult to change your domicile status. As a rule you remain an UK domicile unless you can clearly demonstrate that you have left the UK for good & have no significant ties in that country (family, bank accounts, property etc.).
> 
> So what you may say. Well one of the many issues is UK inheritance tax liability, which in UK the is tied to your domicile status & is levied against your wealth worldwide. The individual exemption of £325,000 may look generous but the value of property can easily push one beyond the threshold.
> 
> So you can be an expat in Portugal & so forfit your right to vote in the UK & many UK benefits but in the final analysis still have a significant UK tax liability.
> 
> Doesn't seem very fair.


Thanks for your contribution, Waterdog, showing how the UK tax system can still catch you out although as expat Brits we might like to think that we have left all that behind us! This tax implication is another reason why the government is careful to state that the right to vote is not necessarily tied to the fact that you pay UK taxes. These forum discussions can be very enlightening as contributions come in that start to make us sometimes rethink our initial assumptions e.g. about the value of, and reasons for, having voting rights.
Rod


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## canoeman

Unfortunately Waterdogs contribution is not totally accurate, if you are now a *UK Portuguese Resident* then it is only any UK assets that _might_ be subject to UK IHT, not your Portuguese assets. Probate Form IHT207.
UK assets for IHT depend on type and ownership.

If you decide to move to another EU country then you change your Residence and domicile status by having to Register in that country, as a Portuguese Resident you are subject to Portuguese tax laws and it is in your interest generally to inform HMRC so income, pensions (except Civil Service).etc are paid tax free.
This _income_ is declared on your Portuguese Tax return and possibly taxed, any tax you had paid because of dual tax treaty with UK would be offset against any tax here.


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## Waterdog

Is an UK Portuguese Resident a resident of the UK who takes Portuguese residency & thereby relinquishes their UK residency? Whatever, unless they take further measures, they are still an UK domicile.

Domicility is complex subject & if you think you could be at risk regarding IHT I believe it is important you get professional advise otherwise your heirs might get a very nasty shock.

There are also a number of other issues regarding your liability as an UK domicile & once again, unless you take the necessary steps, despite taking up residency in another country your are still UK domicile with certain liabilities to the UK.

Unfortunately this is an area with which I have had some acquaintance.


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## canoeman

_"Is an UK Portuguese Resident a resident of the UK who takes Portuguese residency & thereby relinquishes their UK residency?"_
Yes that is correct, and I believe that you are totally wrong by saying "they are still an UK domicile." and "with certain liabilities to the UK." when you relinquish UK Residency for Portugal, you have very few rights in the UK, other than being able to return, which you could anyway as an EU citizen.
But what liabilities? if you've organized your tax affairs, you shouldn't have any. 

Tax and domicile are a different issue and as you say complex, but they have little or no bearing on the average person who moves or retires to Portugal, even if they retain some assets or property in the UK.

As you have "have had some acquaintance." in this area then maybe you can point out the necessary steps you consider important not be classed as domicile in UK and not to give your heirs a nasty shock.


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## Waterdog

Canoeman. Thank you for clarifying UK Portuguese Resident – I am sure you will agree, bit of an oxymoron. 

Whilst I would defend your right to your point of view to the death, I must stress that when you state that you believe that - I am totally wrong by saying "they are still an UK domicile” I think that you are offering potentially dangerous counsel.

Interestingly you appear to confuse rights & liabilities; you can loose the former without shedding the latter. 

‘Organising your tax affairs’ will not necessarily protect you from your domicility obligations. Moreover, domicility obligations can stretch beyond taxation.

Domicility & taxation are different issues but believe me, they can be related & Canoeman, without knowing individual circumstances, to adjudge that ‘they have little or no bearing on the average person who moves or retires to Portugal, even if they retain some assets or property in the UK’ seems somewhat arrogant.

Without going into detail, I have a wide flung family & come what may, my estate has a potential UK IHT liability. Fortunate – yes, but I have taken significant measures to minimise this liability & I have also taken a number of estates through probate, so have some experience in this area. Nevertheless, I have sought professional advice.

I close with the advice, don’t heed half-baked beliefs & opinions but if in doubt, seek professional informed advice & get the answers in writing. Otherwise you heirs could be looking at a 40% nasty shock on all of your estate over £350,000 worldwide & until it is resolved, the executor of your estate will not get probate – could take years!

A final thought; if you hold an UK passport or driving licence I think you will find you are UK domicile.

I hope all will agree that this debate has run its course but please don’t assume, get good advice & no, I am not a lawyer.


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## canoeman

The reason I query your statements is that I believe you to be incorrect and when your asked to substantiate those statements you decline to give any factual response, but raise doubts in peoples mind about their status unnecessarily. 
Yes Domicile is a complicated issue but I repeat that _" they have little or no bearing on the average person who moves or retires to Portugal,"_ if they have made that move correctly.

Your advice appears to be based on being a UK Resident, so your closing advice does not apply to an ex UK Resident who is now correctly and legally a Registered Portuguese Resident.

_"I close with the advice, don’t heed half-baked beliefs & opinions but if in doubt, seek professional informed advice & get the answers in writing. Otherwise you heirs could be looking at a 40% nasty shock on all of your estate over £350,000 worldwide & until it is resolved, the executor of your estate will not get probate – could take years!"_ 

HMRC say "If you are domiciled abroad, inheritance tax applies only to your UK assets. However, if you are domiciled abroad there is no charge on excluded assets and we may remove certain other types of UK assets from the tax charge. For more information on excluded property see 'What is excluded property?"

_"A final thought; if you hold an UK passport or driving licence I think you will find you are UK domicile."_

Not at all, a UK Passport is proof of identity and accepted proof you have British Citizenship, nothing to do with Domicile, equally a UK driving licence one of the requirements when you take up Portuguese Residency is that you either register your licence to your Portuguese address or exchange it for a Portuguese licence with IMTT the Portuguese equivalent of the DVLA, again nothing to do with Domicile, and in fact further proof you are no longer Domiciled in UK.
.


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## Waterdog

As this thread is on the loss of UK Expat voting rights rather than a debate on residence/domicile status, I believe we should get back to that thread.

Nevertheless, unlike Canoeman, I believe that many Expats from the UK with foreign residency could unknowingly still be UK domicile & this may cause their heirs problems in the future.

Therefore, to free up this thread, I will go away do some research & then submit my findings (briefly) in a new thread.

In the meantime, a search on Google will reveal the complexity of this issue & provide food for thought.

Finally, MY ERROR the UK inheritance tax allowances is £325,000 not £350,000 & its pegged for the foreseeable future – it just gets worse!


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## lagosguy

Waterdog said:


> As this thread is on the loss of UK Expat voting rights rather than a debate on residence/domicile status, I believe we should get back to that thread.
> 
> Nevertheless, unlike Canoeman, I believe that many Expats from the UK with foreign residency could unknowingly still be UK domicile & this may cause their heirs problems in the future.
> 
> Therefore, to free up this thread, I will go away do some research & then submit my findings (briefly) in a new thread.
> 
> In the meantime, a search on Google will reveal the complexity of this issue & provide food for thought.
> 
> Finally, MY ERROR the UK inheritance tax allowances is £325,000 not £350,000 & its pegged for the foreseeable future – it just gets worse!



Waterdog, You will have quickly discovered that Canoeman is at his most authoritative when he doesn’t know what he is talking about, which is much of then time. 

You are quite right to say that domicile has nothing to do with residency. As far as the HM Revenue and Customs is concerned, domicile is something you were born with and will die with unless you go through any number of hoops to prove that you have got rid of it. 

Taxationweb.co.uk gives this helpful explanation:-

“Domicile involves complex issues of law. An individual can be resident in more than one country at the same time, but can only have one domicile. A person is generally domiciled where his or her permanent home is situated. A ‘domicile of origin' is acquired at birth, normally from one's father. The domicile of a minor normally follows that of the person on whom he or she is legally dependant (a ‘domicile of dependency'). However, a ‘domicile of choice' can be acquired from age 16. This broadly involves leaving the current country of domicile to settle in another country, and requires strong proof of having moved to the other country permanently or indefinitely. Living in another country is not conclusive evidence of an intention to change domicile.”

Among the factors that will determine whether you have lost your UK domicile will be
Any property, savings and income in or from the UK
Social or family ties to the UK
Frequency and length of visits to the UK
Social, religious etc ties to the new country of residence
Where you vote!!! 

To use a quick analogy to explain the HMRC’s approach,(which made me smile when |I thought of it but will doubtless be rubbished by some) residency is lke the coloring on the outside of a stick of rock. It starts out one colour and stays that way indefinitely if you don’t start eating it. By judicious licking you can make it any number of shades of the original colour and you can even turn it white if you lick it enough. You can dip it in custard and turn it yellow or dip it treacle and turn it brown (this analogy could go on for ever). Domicile on the other hand is like the lettering though the rock: it’s always there and it never changes.

I guess that one reason the HMRC is so reluctant to let go of expats is because, despite their claims to have moved countries for the rest of their lives, so many of them return home (and I use the word advisedly) when their finances go belly up, bad health or infirmity takes hold, homesickness gets too much to bear or the needs of childen and grandchildren overwhelm the pull of faraway places. I have lost count of the number of expats who have “gone home” since I started time-splitting between London and Lagos 5 years ago, so you can hardly blame the HMRC for taking a firm line.

Anybody relying on a long term change of residence to change their inheritance tax status would be wise to ensure that the HMRC are fully signed up to the change before they think about dying. You only have to google “UK domicile and IHT” to find numerous examples of expats who have fallen foul of the HMRC because they mistakenly thought that emigrating got them off the IHT hook.

To get us back on topic, though, I thought that domicile criterion about where you vote is the most interesting. HMRC would not unreasonably consider that, if somebody is invested enough in the UK to demand the right to have a say in its government, they can hardly claim to have severed all ties with the mother country.


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## paulrees

*voting rights*

Clearly the legislation discriminates against 15 year+ expats on no reasonable basis.

Who could argue the right of the British government to disenfranchise British voters after a random period when there is no EU voting alternative, at least in Portugal.

How am I different at 15 years and one day, to the day before?

Our previous generation went to war to fight for the right to put a voting form in a box. With rememberance Sunday next weekend many would turn in their graves if they knew that we have no vote at all in the running of our country of origin and for many, according to the ever-avaricious Inland Revenue, our country of taxation when the grim reaper comes.


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## canoeman

It's only since 1985 an expat has had the right to vote in UK General & EU elections, if your an expat in Portugal you can vote and stand in local and EU elections, if you've registered with your Junta.


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## lagosguy

paulrees said:


> Clearly the legislation discriminates against 15 year+ expats on no reasonable basis.
> 
> Who could argue the right of the British government to disenfranchise British voters after a random period when there is no EU voting alternative, at least in Portugal.
> 
> How am I different at 15 years and one day, to the day before?
> 
> Our previous generation went to war to fight for the right to put a voting form in a box. With rememberance Sunday next weekend many would turn in their graves if they knew that we have no vote at all in the running of our country of origin and for many, according to the ever-avaricious Inland Revenue, our country of taxation when the grim reaper comes.



I don't disagree with your viewpoint for a moment. However, in the light of the discussion on this thread I am really interested in how expats view themselves in the context of their nationality. I didn't know about the 15 years rule, and had always assumed that, when Brits moved their lives abroad, their allegiances would change and they wouldn't have any interest in voting in future UK elections. 

I wonder if your complaint should be not that you can no longer vote in the UK after 15years + 1 day, but that you can no longer vote at all. In which case could I suggest that Portugal is more at fault for refusing to recognise the contribution made by immigrants like yourself over that 15year period by granting them voting rights and that the campaign should be directed at the Portuguese rather than the UK government?


Edited to add.... I see from Canoeman's post, which appeared while I was writing mine, that expat Brits can in fact vote in Portuguese elections. If that is so, then there could be a reasonable objection to your being allowed to vote in elections in two different countries.


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## siobhanwf

At the end of the day. You chose, you moved, you put the country behind you. You no longer live there and have no intention of doing so. Why on earth would you want to vote? 

Whatever the 15 year vote stands. By living abroad by choice you have relinquished you right to a have say.
Focus on the now, where you live, where you have chosen to live and put all else behind.

I have family that still live in the UK and Ireland and it is up to them to have a say in the country they live in and contribute to NOT ME

I have a right to vote in Portugal which I exercise.


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## canoeman

If you exercise your UK vote as an expat you can only vote in UK National and EU Parliament elections but although you can vote in Portuguese local elections you can only vote in either the UK EU Parliament elections or Portugal's EU Parliament elections not both.


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## Waterdog

Nice one Siobhanwf you have said it all & I concur.

However, there would appear to be a number of expats wishing to retain their vote in the UK? For them I believe that the rule could be - no representation without direct taxation. If they wish to continue to vote in the UK they should pay UK direct taxes as do some recipents of UK Government pensions.

This would probably confirm their UK domicile status – sorry wrong thread.

Yet another wrinkle - unless you are a special case (armed forces etc.) to vote in the UK you have to be on an electoral role & depending on your age you may be required to do jury service, complete the census plus other civic responsibilities. 

I believe now you will certainly be classed domicile UK!

That leaves me wondering why you left ‘The Old Country’ in the first place.

Lagosguy your last post was bang on so I will continue my research into UK domicile status & then get back on a new thread.


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## siobhanwf

Sorry to disappoint you waterdog. Domiciled here in Portugal ALL LEGAL. 
I left Ireland for the same reason most Irish do....for work.


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## canoeman

Waterdog said:


> Yet another wrinkle - unless you are a special case (armed forces etc.) to vote in the UK you have to be on an electoral role & depending on your age you may be .
> 
> I believe now you will certainly be classed domicile UK!


Suggest you research the criteria for expats registering to vote in UK elections, before making another incorrect statement.

Since 1985 any British citizens living abroad can vote in UK Parliamentary and European Parliamentary elections but cannot vote in local elections or elections to devolved bodies such as the Scottish Parliament, National Assembly for Wales or Greater London Authority.
The only criteria to register is that you where entered on an Electoral Register within 15 years of leaving UK, a minor now of voting age can also register to vote providing their parent or Guardian was registered to vote.
This registration still does not make you domiciled or required to do jury service, complete the census plus other civic responsibilities, oops wrong thread!


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## Waterdog

Not disappointed but V happy that you have got it all sorted. 

My concerns are for those UK folk who may not be aware of their true status. 

But may I pry - how did you establish your Portuguese domicile status & do you know if the rules in Ireland are the same as for the UK?

As IHT appears to be the main are of concern please advise are the Irish IHT rules similar to the UK? £325,000 personal allowance. No IHT between married couples & surviving spouse can use all of their partners remaining allowance, gifts exempt after 7 years, small gifts allowed every year - there other rules but these are the main ones.

Finally I believe that like many other countrie,s Portugal has recently abandoned IHT so this could be a very British problem?


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## paulrees

canoeman said:


> It's only since 1985 an expat has had the right to vote in UK General & EU elections, if your an expat in Portugal you can vote and stand in local and EU elections, if you've registered with your Junta.


But you can not vote for your MP.


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## canoeman

paulrees said:


> But you can not vote for your MP.


If you mean UK MP then yes if you qualify, if you mean Portuguese MP no, only Junta and Camra elections or EU elections. 
Only Portuguese Nationals can vote in National Elections.


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## Waterdog

Canoeman your main objective appears to rubbish any argument presented rather than address the real concerns expressed. 

I am aware that you consider that domicile status should not concern the average UK expat but if only one is caught out through lack of advice then I am sure you will agree that is one too many.

It is my personal experience from my travels that many UK folk abroad are confused by this debate & believe that residence dictates their domicile status.

I note your comment on voting but how do you remain on the electoral role without an UK address? 

Have you tried to vote when not on an electoral role? 

Do you believe that if you are on an electoral role you can elect not to attend jury service? I served on the Witness Service & can assure you that the judge may express a different point of view & could declare you in contempt of court. 

Not that would be a big problem, as I doubt if they would attempt to extradite & on the plus side when you do pitch up in the UK you not require a hotel, as HM would provide you with free accommodation!

But you divert me from the issue in hand, which is how do you confirm you are not UK domicile?

Until you can establish that, your position (tax or otherwise) as an UK Non Dom is irrelevant!


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## canoeman

If you follow my posts I am not attempting "rubbish any argument presented " but the exact opposite, as yet you still have not presented anything to substantiate your interpretation of domicile, neither have I said " that domicile status should not concern the average UK expat" I have said that if *they have done their move correctly it shouldn't be a concern*.

If you read my reply you would have seen I said_ "you where entered on an Electoral Register within 15 years of leaving UK"_ this is the criteria used to allow you to Register for voting, it does *not* give you any other rights than being able to vote, and *does not *make you available for jury service etc. 

I confirmed my status as Non Domiciled without any problems, after discussions with HMRC and various others.
Completed a form supplied HMRC in English & Portuguese for relief from UK income Tax, completed by Portuguese Finances and returned to HMRC.
Completed form R105's for banks etc
Notified NHS no longer a Resident.
Notified new addresses to Banks, froze TESSA, ISA's
Opted for Non Resident Landlord scheme 
Registered Residence in Portugal,
Registered with Portuguese Social Security
Registered with Portuguese Health Service
Registered Driving Licence with IMTT
Consular Certificate for date of leaving UK
might have been a few other things but they where the major ones.

HMRC are quite happy that I'm not domiciled in UK and have confirmed that, and I obviously don't transgress any of the criteria that might be applied to alter that.


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## Waterdog

Glad you have managed to sort this problem out.

As you will have seen, as promised, I have started a new thread on this issue & have strived to be non-confrontational so you might like to offer your solution on that new location.

xx xx


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## canoeman

I didn't have a problem, but I'll look at your non- confrontational post and see whether I can learn anything.


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## siobhanwf

I think this subject has been worried to death  so closing the thread


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