# Cyprus economy



## buster12 (Oct 9, 2012)

There have been a number of rather disturbing articles in the UK quality press over the past few days, reporting possible problems with the EU 'bailout' that is pending for Cyprus and the conditions that might be attached to it. I understand that it is now up for discussion in Brussels in mid-January, but there accusations of 'communist government', money laundering etc. that some countires (UK included) want investigated prior to approving the bailout funds. There are also reports that the Cyprus government has had to borrow from Public sector pension funds to pay public sector wages this month.

As someone planning to move to Cyprus shortly this raises many questions (many of which I am sure are not answerable at the moment!) and uncertainties, so I would appreciate the viewpoint of anyone already 'living the dream' out there as to the real situation?

Should I be concerned about the future economy? What happens if the bailout is not approved? Etc. etc.?! 

Any thoughts and comments would be welcomed - thank you.

Regards to all,

David


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## kimonas (Jul 19, 2008)

The descriptions of the reports in the UK press I would see as pretty accurate. The economy here is pretty much on the verge of, or has already begun meltdown mode with the government continuing its heritage of amateurish 'management' of the situation, defelection tactics and misinformation. Some of the bigger companies that were decribed as 'too big to fail' are now collapsing following years of corruptive practices that follow the deep rooted traditions here of nepotism and CEOs lining their own pockets. The latest example is the biggest supermarket chain here, which has this week closed 11 of its branches and is looking for a buy out of the business. It has outstanding debts of 200 million, 85 of which was owed to suppliers that have subsequently gone bust. I think there is a large element of the Emperor's New Clothes syndrome about the current situation in Cyprus - the various European Directives that have been ignored for so many years since joining the EU have caught up with the administration which faces inpending infringement proceedings and has had to engage with the Troika- which has revealed that almost all senior colleagues here in government, banking and finance have been stark naked for a very long time. Cyprus has been forced in effect to give up its sovereignty and I think there will be a very painful recovery which will take a very long time to be realised. Many talk of the Oil and Gas reserves as being the saving grace, but this is a very long way off yet. I know many people here that are planning their exit strategies as the propects here are pretty dire and what little public services that exist, which are pretty much third world are set to get cut - the angry press here has categorised the RoC as a Bannana Republic and they wouldn't (in my opinion) be far off the mark...


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2012)

kimonas said:


> The descriptions of the reports in the UK press I would see as pretty accurate. The economy here is pretty much on the verge of, or has already begun meltdown mode with the government continuing its heritage of amateurish 'management' of the situation, defelection tactics and misinformation. Some of the bigger companies that were decribed as 'too big to fail' are now collapsing following years of corruptive practices that follow the deep rooted traditions here of nepotism and CEOs lining their own pockets. The latest example is the biggest supermarket chain here, which has this week closed 11 of its branches and is looking for a buy out of the business. It has outstanding debts of 200 million, 85 of which was owed to suppliers that have subsequently gone bust. I think there is a large element of the Emperor's New Clothes syndrome about the current situation in Cyprus - the various European Directives that have been ignored for so many years since joining the EU have caught up with the administration which faces inpending infringement proceedings and has had to engage with the Troika- which has revealed that almost all senior colleagues here in government, banking and finance have been stark naked for a very long time. Cyprus has been forced in effect to give up its sovereignty and I think there will be a very painful recovery which will take a very long time to be realised. Many talk of the Oil and Gas reserves as being the saving grace, but this is a very long way off yet. I know many people here that are planning their exit strategies as the propects here are pretty dire and what little public services that exist, which are pretty much third world are set to get cut - the angry press here has categorised the RoC as a Bannana Republic and they wouldn't (in my opinion) be far off the mark...


Kimonas, what do you think about the roumors that the level of income before tax will be cut with 50% to be in level with the rest of Europe? It is said this is a demand from the Troika to get more income for Cyprus government

Anders


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## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

kimonas said:


> The descriptions of the reports in the UK press I would see as pretty accurate. The economy here is pretty much on the verge of, or has already begun meltdown mode with the government continuing its heritage of amateurish 'management' of the situation, defelection tactics and misinformation. Some of the bigger companies that were decribed as 'too big to fail' are now collapsing following years of corruptive practices that follow the deep rooted traditions here of nepotism and CEOs lining their own pockets. The latest example is the biggest supermarket chain here, which has this week closed 11 of its branches and is looking for a buy out of the business. It has outstanding debts of 200 million, 85 of which was owed to suppliers that have subsequently gone bust. I think there is a large element of the Emperor's New Clothes syndrome about the current situation in Cyprus - the various European Directives that have been ignored for so many years since joining the EU have caught up with the administration which faces inpending infringement proceedings and has had to engage with the Troika- which has revealed that almost all senior colleagues here in government, banking and finance have been stark naked for a very long time. Cyprus has been forced in effect to give up its sovereignty and I think there will be a very painful recovery which will take a very long time to be realised. Many talk of the Oil and Gas reserves as being the saving grace, but this is a very long way off yet. I know many people here that are planning their exit strategies as the propects here are pretty dire and what little public services that exist, which are pretty much third world are set to get cut - the angry press here has categorised the RoC as a Bannana Republic and they wouldn't (in my opinion) be far off the mark...


A pretty damning summary with a lot of truth behind the opinions but presented in a negative way. For example I have not read or heard of any suppliers going bust over Orphanides failure. While those that are out of pocket will probably have to write off the debt their products should be going out for sale via the other supermarkets shelves if the demand was there in the first place. I also voice the question of why these suppliers allowed the debt to mount so high from a customer that was known to be losing money and was in difficulties. Similarly I ask why the 2 main banks allowed a credit line of €150 million which appears to be unsecured. There is a lot more behind this failure than Cyprus's finances as there is no apparent similarity with the state of the other supermarket chains.

That aside correct management of the gas resources could become the jewel in the crown that no other EU country in financial difficulties has to look forward to. The current idiot President will be gone in February and if his replacement takes the bull by the horns correctly he will, in line with the Troika's wishes, start to deal with the bloated, inefficient and outdated public sector

Cyprus is however not a country that I would recommend anyone to come to who needs to work and/or has young children. This is a place to retire to on the back of your own funds.

The future looks difficult as it does for many nations within the EU and the biggest problem for all countries is the fact that they are run by politicians, the people who have the least skills or experience for this task. Sadly I cannot offer a solution to this.

Pete


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2012)

PeteandSylv said:


> A pretty damning summary with a lot of truth behind the opinions but presented in a negative way. For example I have not read or heard of any suppliers going bust over Orphanides failure. While those that are out of pocket will probably have to write off the debt their products should be going out for sale via the other supermarkets shelves if the demand was there in the first place. I also voice the question of why these suppliers allowed the debt to mount so high from a customer that was known to be losing money and was in difficulties. Similarly I ask why the 2 main banks allowed a credit line of €150 million which appears to be unsecured. There is a lot more behind this failure than Cyprus's finances as there is no apparent similarity with the state of the other supermarket chains.
> 
> That aside correct management of the gas resources could become the jewel in the crown that no other EU country in financial difficulties has to look forward to. The current idiot President will be gone in February and if his replacement takes the bull by the horns correctly he will, in line with the Troika's wishes, start to deal with the bloated, inefficient and outdated public sector
> 
> ...


Is it sure that the president will go and is there any good candidates to replace him?

I don't know if it would help with a non-political government, it seems more to be a culture thing. Look at Greece. 

You are of c right about that Cyprus are no country for people who have to earn a living working as employed here and have children. But of c Cyprus is also a place for people with their own business, in or outside Cyprus.

And one thing is for sure, the collapsed property market will take MANY years to sort out. Many will loose a lot of money.

My humble opinion, still not afraid to do the move

Anders


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## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

Vegaanders said:


> Is it sure that the president will go and is there any good candidates to replace him?
> 
> I don't know if it would help with a non-political government, it seems more to be a culture thing. Look at Greece.
> 
> ...


The idiot President is not standing for re-election so we can all be relieved that he will go.

I have no idea about the candidates for his replacement other than it is almost impossible for them to be as incompetent.

You are quite right about the property market which now holds great bargains for those adventurous enough to buy and even better bargains for those who wish to rent.

Pete


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## buster12 (Oct 9, 2012)

Hi to all who have responded so far - more encouraging than I was exepcting I think! I like the irdea of great bargains - we hope to arrange a rental when we visit in February while we look to purchase - any advice on where to look for rentals greatly appreciated. 

I think it will be interesting to see what changes take place over the next couple of months, hopefully they will be positive now I have committed to moving over there. I am glad I am not relying on working there though - remote working for UK company and possibility of some self-employment to top up pensions should keep us going.

How safe do you feel the Banks are now - I appreciate there is a guarantee system in place from previous thread but these circumstances must be affecting the stability of the banking system? I am minded to keep bulk of funds in UK bank and tx as necessary.

David


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2012)

buster12 said:


> Hi to all who have responded so far - more encouraging than I was exepcting I think! I like the irdea of great bargains - we hope to arrange a rental when we visit in February while we look to purchase - any advice on where to look for rentals greatly appreciated.
> 
> I think it will be interesting to see what changes take place over the next couple of months, hopefully they will be positive now I have committed to moving over there. I am glad I am not relying on working there though - remote working for UK company and possibility of some self-employment to top up pensions should keep us going.
> 
> ...


I think the guarantee is about the same in EU and UK, about 100000 euro per person.

The stability of the banks mostly depends on what happens in Greece. Cyprus banks have very much money invested in Greece banks and if they go bad I doubt that the Cyprus bank can survive it, at least without state help. And as I understand it most of the "bailout" is meant to recapitalize the banks.

I also think that a bailout, as kimonas say, will have much more effect on other parts then the economy because EU now have a golden opportunity to force Cyprus to comply with the treaty. It will be a sour medicine to swallow....


Anders


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## berni109 (May 28, 2010)

David,
i would not rush to transfer funds to cyprus. you can manage your finances on a 'no' fee uk credit card.
property has gone down >30% and has further to go so rent(also down - shop around) for as long as you can. i am sure u know if you have done your research not to buy anything without title deeds however good a deal is offered.
if you are a normal retiree (no vast wealth) then overall you wont find things here very different to the uk although some thing can be very annoying if you let it get to you.

if you have the resources keep a bolthole in the uk.

bern


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2012)

This article is very interesting really interesting. Originally in German news but translated to English and on the website of Der Spiegel International

Cyprus Makes Big Concessions for Bailout - SPIEGEL ONLINE

It states that among other things Cyprus will have to

Raise VAT with 2 %

Raise petrol tax with 7 %

Freeze civil servants salaries until 2016

Save on healthcare

Reduced pensions

A lot of other taxes like on alcohol and tobacco will be raised a lot. 

And a lot of other things


happy reading


Anders


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## buster12 (Oct 9, 2012)

berni109 said:


> David,
> i would not rush to transfer funds to cyprus. you can manage your finances on a 'no' fee uk credit card.
> property has gone down >30% and has further to go so rent(also down - shop around) for as long as you can. i am sure u know if you have done your research not to buy anything without title deeds however good a deal is offered.
> if you are a normal retiree (no vast wealth) then overall you wont find things here very different to the uk although some thing can be very annoying if you let it get to you.
> ...


Hello Bern,

Thank you for your comments - I will be keeping funds in UK for now and using debit/currency/credit cards in the main, as you suggest. Obviously need some funds over there and the Co-operative Bank looks the best bet for that.

Decided to definitely rent for at least six months to see how the new Government settles in and what changes are made, and the consequent effects - hopefully they will help to put the country back on a sound footing. Austerity programmes are happening all over and Cyprus cannot be exempt.

In the meantime, it's going to be down the beach and off to the taverna! :clap2:

Thanks to all and a very merry Xmas.

David


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## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

berni109 said:


> David,
> i would not rush to transfer funds to cyprus. you can manage your finances on a 'no' fee uk credit card.
> property has gone down >30% and has further to go so rent(also down - shop around) for as long as you can. i am sure u know if you have done your research not to buy anything without title deeds however good a deal is offered.
> if you are a normal retiree (no vast wealth) then overall you wont find things here very different to the uk although some thing can be very annoying if you let it get to you.
> ...


I completely agree with this advice with the exception of the credit card. You will get better rates via Currency Fair, the entire transaction can be handled in a few minutes on-line and the only charge is €3 to move any amount of money out.

Pete


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2012)

Another article about the demands for the bailout

IMF Demands Cyprus Debt Haircut as Precondition for Aid - SPIEGEL ONLINE


Anders


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## buster12 (Oct 9, 2012)

Hello Pete,

I plan to use a mixture, have used FairFX, Smartcurrency and Travelex corporate in the past but will have a look at nCurrency Fair. Thanks for the tip!

Have a great Christmas,

David


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## buster12 (Oct 9, 2012)

Thanks Anders - interesting reading! Wife now v. worried....!

David


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

VAT is going up to 19% in January and then up to 20% the following January.,

The main thing that the government employees are up in arms about is that Troika has insisted that their 13th month salary be abolished.

I don't know how much of this article is acutally scaremongering, Cyprus is certainly not in a worse state than Greece and according to a contact of ours who is in the know with what is happening the bail out has already been agreed. The conditions for the bailout are that once the oil and gas start to flow it has to go into three directions. Firstly to pay off all debts, secondly for infrastructure, thirdly for future generations.

We can only wait and see what acutally does happen. No one can acurately predict the future.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2012)

What Angela Merkel have said in German television about Cyprus is that she don't trust that the government will be able to follow the demands. And what she say will still be followed by EU and the Troika. Don't forget that most of the money will have to come from Germany, as it has done to all other bailout countries.

No bailout will ever be agreed without Germany. And Mrs. Merkel demands that Russia put in 5 billions of the money. If no Russian money, no bailout

Perhaps Greece is in a worse state but it is also true that no other bailout country have come close to need 100% of GDP in loans.

For sure no money will be paid out before a new president is in place and a new government has agreed to follow the agreement with the Troika.

But as Veronica say, we have to see what the future gives

Anders


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## berni109 (May 28, 2010)

Hi again,
just a quick note on currency/credit cards.
If you need substantial sums in cyprus then agreed currency fair is the one i use but you invariably get .05% less than the commercial rate plus the £3 transaction cost.
With the RIGHT credit card (check monetsavingexpert.com) then you get the commercial rate on the day of transaction plus no transaction charge or interest so its the best for buying things on provided you clear the balance every month. If you draw cash on the CC pay it off on the same day and it might cost a couple of euro.
BUT make sure you have the right card because it can get very expensive if you dont.
bern


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## buster12 (Oct 9, 2012)

Hi Bern,

Thanks - that is in accord with my experience and we do have the right card! Initiallywe will also carry a Euro currency card for cash whilst we get set up, buy a car etc. then set up Bank a/c over there for day to day, but not for substantial sums. Credit card for purchases is fine as you say, cleared every month.

Thanks for your advice,

David


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2012)

Veronica said:


> VAT is going up to 19% in January and then up to 20% the following January.,
> 
> The main thing that the government employees are up in arms about is that Troika has insisted that their 13th month salary be abolished.
> 
> ...


It seems there is some different opinions about the VAT. This articcle come upmwith some other figures, at least for the VAT. The salary thing is perhaps not so good for the people concerned

Cyprus Chamber -


Anders


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## David_&_Letitia (Jul 8, 2012)

This is both an interesting and a worrying thread.

Clearly, Cyprus has economic problems, but are these entirley due to *Sovereign* debt, or are they really Cypriot Bank debts due to their over-exposure to Greek bank debts? Clearly, the State of Cyprus has not (yet) underwritten the Cypriot Bank debts, so whilst austerity measures are required, as with nearly all EU countires, is it possible that the Cypriot Banks may be allowed to fail in order to avoid their debts being taken on as Sovereign debts?


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## David_&_Letitia (Jul 8, 2012)

Vegaanders said:


> This article is very interesting really interesting. Originally in German news but translated to English and on the website of Der Spiegel International
> 
> Cyprus Makes Big Concessions for Bailout - SPIEGEL ONLINE
> 
> ...


An interesting article, but for many other countries in the EU, Cyprus still apppears to be (relatively) cheap in certain areas at the moment, which clearly gives rise to the possibility of indirect tax rises in Cyprus in order to raise more revenue. 

Letitia and I holiday there at least once every year, and find both alcohol and tobacco very cheap compared with the UK and most other EU countires we visit. Although I don't smoke, Letitia finds it financially worthwhile buying at least 12 months worth of tobacco every holiday in Cyprus, so maybe there is room for the increase proposed without too much pain? In addition, VAT in the UK is already 20%, so a hike to 19% in Cyprus hardly seems Earth shattering news - the same goes for fuel prices.

As for the reduction in pay and pensions for the public sector -welcome to the real world.

Do not misunderstand me - I will never be an advocate for unjustified price rises - especially when they are designed to perpetuate the pathetic Common Agricultural Policy (CAP), so beneficial to French farmers, but when needs must...


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## APW (Apr 15, 2009)

I'm in the unique position to answer a few points in this thread, thought i'd chime in.

RE: how did the vendors of Orphanides let it get so bad:
It's common practice in cyprus to have long credit terms (45 days/60 days) but many of the 'big boys' have pushed this up to 180 and 210 days (so imagine, you deliver goods to someone in december and you'll only have your invoice paid in june of next year. 

Regarding the despotic nature of many "CEO's" here, it is correct. Only a few companies have forward-thinking managers that believe anything other then 'Whatever i do will work'.This may work in a booming economy, but the moment that things become tough and the bank stop extending loans and overdrafts, we get this. 

IMHO we will see another large chain close, and then many of the smaller stores will fold (Periptero, too many of them!) this has the potential to spiral out of control. If what i am seeing can be believed then this year is going to be tough (especially around may)


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## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

APW,

Your thoughts are very interesting particularly with regard to another chain closing. If there is knowledge of trading difficulties for another chain it seems rather obtuse for suppliers to take over Orphanides.

These very people will own a company that will not be paying their own companies (as suppliers) in a reasonable time-scale, however if they do they will create further cash flow problems for Orphanides.

The CEO dictatorship that you described is ridiculous and begs the question as to the point of any other board members. In Orphanides case they were all non-executive.

Also in Orphanides case the banks did not restrict the loans and overdrafts soon enough which is why the level of debt became so absurd. Surely they have enough financial knowledge to understand that before the level of debt becomes unserviceable there is a need to seek solutions while there is value to the business as a whole.

Over the last couple of years in Cyprus I have witnessed an astonishing level of "ego over common sense" in business, in banking and in Government. The country, often described as a sinking ship, appears to be manned by idiots. The sooner the EU demands greater controls and hopefully teaches the banks about banking the better, for this will influence businesses to be run in a more business like fashion.

Pete


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## APW (Apr 15, 2009)

Pete, 

You are spot on about everything, the mentality of many companies is so archaic that it isn't even funny. 

when a company becomes 'big' they will often bully suppliers that are smaller with demands and "because it's an honour" to deal with the big companies, suppliers will put up with it. If a supplier gambles and fights back then they run the risk of being cut-off and effectively losing the outstanding value of goods (suing a customer in cyprus, no matter how blatent the offense seems to be a non-starter) 

I have to pick my words carefully but if i was a bank that needed to 'clean' money then one way to do it is to loan it out, the interest and repayments do all the hard work. 

Orphanides was a clear case of 'we cannot fail!' fed by the banks wanting to save face until it became obvious to everyone that building your way out of debt is as wrong as 'these explosives will be safe near to the islands largest power station' 

*Sigh* 
It must be so nice to be ignorant, ignoring logic and reason must be so 'Zen' however a frontal lobotomy is not really my thing.


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## buster12 (Oct 9, 2012)

It has ben interesting and informative following the comments in the thread. It appears some progress being made in changing the way the country is run and administered, as well as efforts to have a sensible budget. 
The 'bail-out' still looks to be some way off however and I see that the petrol stations have gone on strike in protest at more stations being licensed, which seems rather short-soighted!
If the bail-out continues to be delayed, what do contributors think are the implications for the 'man in the street' and expats, their life and the general continuing functioning of the Countries infra-structure?
We are getting closer to moving every day, so some concerns being felt!
Thank you for your contributions,
Regards,

David


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2013)

buster12 said:


> It has ben interesting and informative following the comments in the thread. It appears some progress being made in changing the way the country is run and administered, as well as efforts to have a sensible budget.
> The 'bail-out' still looks to be some way off however and I see that the petrol stations have gone on strike in protest at more stations being licensed, which seems rather short-soighted!
> If the bail-out continues to be delayed, what do contributors think are the implications for the 'man in the street' and expats, their life and the general continuing functioning of the Countries infra-structure?
> We are getting closer to moving every day, so some concerns being felt!
> ...


I think that most changes for the everyday life will come when the bailout is granted. Higher taxes meaning higher prices is the one I think will be most felt. As I read what is said about the content of the bailout most effects will take time. Ofc all the lowering of salaries and such will affect some people but the big points like changing of banking laws, naturalization laws, privatization of companies and such will of course take long time.

One thing that surprise me is that they don't demand to lower the amount of income you can have before paying tax to a normal European level. Most countries today allow only 50% of the Cyprus level and this change would get some more income to the state.


Just to wait and see.

Anders


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## S8112 (Jan 12, 2013)

David, 

Cyprus is going through a fairly tough period now with regards to its economy. The government has to borrow money from Troika, and in order to achieve this it has to tidy up its finances. 

However, although this will mean more taxation and less benefits, you will be much better off in Cyprus compared to England. For example, even with the proposed VAT rise by 2% over the next two years, Cyprus will reach the 20%, which is the current rate in the UK.

Moreover, income tax is much less in Cyprus.

Cypriot economy has always been very good and it does not compare with the Greek one. However, some Cypriot banks bought Greek Government bonds, and as a result lost about 7-10 billion euros when the Greek debt was cut last year. The governement has to borrow this money from Troika, but the Cypriot economy is expected to be able to recover very quickly.

Cypriot people are very hard working, and they do pay their taxes. There are some cases of corruption and inappropriate use of government money, like everywhere else, but these are very limited and nothing like they are represented in the foreign mass media.

Moreover, all these rumours about money laundring are also non founded. Cyprus has very tough laws against money laundring, and the parliament has also recently passed futher measures against this. 

If you want to come to Cyprus and enjoy a relaxed life full of sunshine, nice food and wine, this is the place to be. If you want to come to Cyprus to worry about money and finances, then I am afraid this not the place to be. 

I hope this helps.


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## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

S8112 said:


> David,
> 
> Cyprus is going through a fairly tough period now with regards to its economy. The government has to borrow money from Troika, and in order to achieve this it has to tidy up its finances.
> 
> ...


This has to be the most sanitised view I've come across. Are you a member of the Idiot President's family?

Pete


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## S8112 (Jan 12, 2013)

Of course I am not related to either the president or anybody from his government. I do not think I have made any mention in my reply to the president, so I do not understand why you suggested that.

The main problems in Cyprus right now is uncertaincy and pessimism. Undoubtly there are difficult days ahead, but the only way forward is accepting the situation and working hard to bring prosperity back to the country. 

There are presidential elections coming soon, so if you are not happy with the current president, you can vote for another candidate. Although Christophias is not running for a second term anyway. You can choose either Lillikas or Anastasiades, if you don't want to vote for Malas, the candidate of Akel, the communist party.

Despite the hardship, I still thing that Cyprus is a paradise on earth. Do you think otherwise?


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## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

S8112 said:


> Of course I am not related to either the president or anybody from his government. I do not think I have made any mention in my reply to the president, so I do not understand why you suggested that.
> 
> The main problems in Cyprus right now is uncertaincy and pessimism. Undoubtly there are difficult days ahead, but the only way forward is accepting the situation and working hard to bring prosperity back to the country.
> 
> ...


I am a guest in this country and I am here because I want to be and like Cyprus very much. I have a great quality of life here. But this is separate from the real political and economic issues for which you appear to have a very optimistic opinion and form of expression.

The main problem in Cyprus is economic. The idiot President, he who is to be obeyed but accepts no responsibility, has under his rule mis-administrated the economy, failed to regulate the banks, ignored his own ministers and advisors, and rejected his responsibility for the Mari tragedy which was the conclusion of the investigator he appointed. As a result the country is all but bankrupt and in a deep financial crisis.

Your view on this was that Cyprus is in a "tough period". I think its a little more than tough when the government has to go cap in hand and borrow money from the electricity and phone companies to meet the payroll for the public sector.

You suggest the only way forward is working hard. Try telling that to the huge number of unemployed and those that will become unemployed providing the bloated and idle public sector comes under the Troika's recommended axe. How does anyone work hard under a government that is so blinkered as to refuse to accept the situation let alone any responsibility. A government with a President that uses his speeches to continually blame everyone else for the problems without ever offering any kind of feasible plan for a solution other than running off to his chums in Russia to beg for cash, but has assured that his pension and leaving payments are firmly in place.

You state that the Cypriot economy is "expected to recover very quickly". Please inform us all of who has made this prediction. Not one commentator I have read would be so foolish as to suggest this of a tiny country with a debt equal to its GDP.

I could continue to pick apart your statements but I hope I have made the point to you that your over optimistic interpretation of the situation defies reality. I can only hope that the future brings a sensible President and government into power that will be capable of revising the antiquated and dysfunctional infrastructure that exists, acts with more honour and integrity that the present shower and spends less time lunching and more time working for their country taking advantage of the huge opportunity the gas reserves offer.

I also hope that wherever you are located you will be able to gain a more realistic knowledge of the exact situation than you seem to have at present.

Pete


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## Guest (Jan 13, 2013)

S8112 said:


> Of course I am not related to either the president or anybody from his government. I do not think I have made any mention in my reply to the president, so I do not understand why you suggested that.
> 
> The main problems in Cyprus right now is uncertaincy and pessimism. Undoubtly there are difficult days ahead, but the only way forward is accepting the situation and working hard to bring prosperity back to the country.
> 
> ...


First I must ask why you don't live in the paradise on earth?

Pete is Brit so he can't vote for president, and I know he wanted.

I read some EU report today about the bailout in Cyprus. 

The big problem is that the president refuse to privatize any state owned companies which the Trojka demands. And no bailout willl be paid out until all conditions are met.

he also refuse to change the naturalization laws that give rich Russians and Chinese the possibility to buy a citizenship by investing money in Cyprus.

Angela Merkel also stated today there will be no bailout before the new government is in place, and they have promised to follow the terms

But this president is not important, he is soon gone. The coming one is the important one


Anders


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## berni109 (May 28, 2010)

people - calm down and carry on.
Cyprus is in the merde big time and rose tinted glasses will not change that. It has next to no liquid assets and no one will lend them any unless they meet the criteria required by the euro group and imf. This has been brought about by the simple act of living beyond their means (7billion in the past 5 yrs 2.5billion from russia in 12months). You can only spend what you have not got if some one is prepared to lend to you.

This country is run by politicians who like all of them worldwide tell you one thing and then do another. If anyone trusts what they have to say then you need a reality check. Sound bites keep the press and tv stations happy with full programmes. The new president will tinker around the edges but the status quo will prevail with so many vested interests he cant afford to upset.
Will the eu allow cyprus to default when it comes to the crunch? - i dont think so they have too much self interest for it all to start unravelling. 
Will cyprus apply all of the terms imposed? - they will try to use their crafty ways developed with a middle eastern bazzar mentality but hopefully they will be brought to heel by the eu/imf before they blow the bailout money.

The wealthy in cyprus will hardly notice a slight blip in their standard of living. The poor will get sustaintially poorer and those in the middle ground (inc. most non working expats) will probably have to modify their lifestyle to fit a tighter budget. Property will continue to go down in price until some form of recovery starts to materialise which imho wont happen for several years.
The exchange rate will have more of an impact for brits who have a uk income. 

ciga-ciga is the way cypriot culture works and this is so deeply ingrained within the psyche of the population that i cant see anything that will change that. The governments administration will take years to become efficient and adopt northern european working practices and for all that time the civil servants will drain the economy. 
Old cypriots had a hard life and hard physical work was the norm for that generation but most now dont work 6 hr a day and like in most of the world would prefer not to pay tax if they can find a way of avoiding it.


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## buster12 (Oct 9, 2012)

Hello Anders, Pete, Bern,

Thanks for your comments - I also believe it is vital that Cyprus elects the right man to be President this time around, a shame that Pete and I and others like us cannot do anything to influence that. Not living there (yet) I hadn't realised how bad things have got within the Government, public sector and presidency. Being a tourist certainly doesn't give you the fill story.

However, we are looking to enjoy the sun, good food, wine and lovely people who live in the island and hope to fit in with their life, and make a positive contribution wherever possible to the future of the island. Having said that I will definitely hedge my bets by keeping most of my hard-earned savings offshore though.

I am not quite sure where S8112 gets his view from but recognise his point about the reasons for living there and hope that we can all enjoy that, despite the uncertainties. 

Who is looking the favourite for election to the Presidency?

Thanks for all your comments which I have followed with interest!

David







Vegaanders said:


> First I must ask why you don't live in the paradise on earth?
> 
> Pete is Brit so he can't vote for president, and I know he wanted.
> 
> ...


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## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

Berni109:

I don't think anyone is getting excited but rather sharing concerns about advising anyone wrongly. This is the most useful of all the forums for giving and getting advice and it would be to everyone's detriment if this were to change.

To take a blinkered and overly optimistic view of the state of play in Cyprus is to give as bad advice as recommending a restaurant that you know serves poor food.

Anyone thinking of coming here is entitled to a truthful and factual account so that they can make informed decisions. My response to S8112 was based on his post bending the truth and being short on facts.

I hope my response as well as the others have corrected that. If S8112 is so insistent that his account is correct I would hope he would come back with some facts for us from his haven so far from paradise.

Pete


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## Kalimera (Oct 19, 2011)

Things might be bad in Cyprus but in the UK things are slowly getting worst. Comet, Jessops, HMV and Blockbuster have either gone or going and businesses (outside London) continue to struggle. It's really grim and depressing in the UK and each month is just fighting fire to stay afloat. 

If somebody asked me for advice on moving to the UK and wanted to know there prospects here I would tell them the truth.

I still dream of packing this up and moving over, one day it will happen!


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## S8112 (Jan 12, 2013)

PeteandSylv said:


> Berni109:
> 
> I don't think anyone is getting excited but rather sharing concerns about advising anyone wrongly. This is the most useful of all the forums for giving and getting advice and it would be to everyone's detriment if this were to change.
> 
> ...


Dear Pete,

I really cannot understand you.

You left Britain for Cyprus, but I am not sure what your situation is and what you were hoping to find in Cyprus.

If for example, you were looking for a better job, to make money or work hard, I think you would be much better in the UK.

However, if you wanted to go to a place where the weather is nice, people are friendly, and you have a good quality of life, then Cyprus is indeed one of the best places to be.

Of course it's going through a very difficult financial and political crisis at the moment, but you are trying to pass the message that Cyprus is a bad place to live and you recommend against it.

I think that YOU are bending the truth and using this forum to simply misinform people about Cyprus. You keep going on about the financial crisis and the country's president, but I still have not heard how all these have affected YOUR life.

For example, are you a pensioner? And if you are, do you have to pay even a single penny from your pension as income tax, as you would have done if you were living in the UK? I don't think so.

So stop being pretentious.

Cyprus is a heaven on earth and will always be. Irrespective of the hardships it has faced through the centuries. 

However, what really surprises me is the fact that you keep telling people about the economy and the president, but you have not said a single word about the Turkish troops which unlawfully hold half of the island. I am sure you must have lots of Cypriot neighbours who are refugees in their own country, and lost relatives (including women and children) at the Turkish invasion of the island in 1974.


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

S8112 said:


> Dear Pete,
> 
> 
> I think that YOU are bending the truth and using this forum to simply misinform people about Cyprus. You keep going on about the financial crisis and the However, what really surprises me is the fact that you keep telling people about the economy and the president, but you have not said a single word about the Turkish troops which unlawfully hold half of the island. I am sure you must have lots of Cypriot neighbours who are refugees in their own country, and lost relatives (including women and children) at the Turkish invasion of the island in 1974.


This thread is not about the situation between the two halves of Cyprus but about the situation on the South of the border.
As Pete says, this forum is about telling the truth and not painting a pretty picture encouraging people to come here if they are not financially able to do so.
My livelihood depends on people coming over here and buying property through my company so I could tell everyone it is wonderful, there are no problems with the economy, no title deed issues etc etc but that would be a lie. I would not be able to sleep comfortably knowing I had mislead people into thinking everything is great and made money out of them andleft them in a mess. 
We tell it as it is and allow people then to make an informed choice as to whether Cyprus is the place for them. 
I don't regret moving here for one moment, I love my life here but that dosn't mean that it is right for everyone.


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## PeteandSylv (Sep 24, 2008)

S8112 said:


> Dear Pete,
> 
> I really cannot understand you.
> 
> ...


I much prefer to focus on topics and what is being said rather than personal attacks but I do feel that you should take a complete reality check. You have ignored what I and others have said and refused to answer the questions you have been posed.

At no time have I said Cyprus is a bad place to live. I have told the truth to those who might make a severe financial error in coming here possibly with children, to seek work, while encouraging those who can afford to retire here. I make no apology for this message and rather feel that those of us actually living here and being fully aware of the situation would agree.

I have never, ever bent the truth or lied in my postings and your suggestion that I have is a disgrace. If it were true then you would give examples of this but once again you have come up short on facts.

My criticisms of the government and the President are not unique. Of all the Cypriots I have spoken to not a single one has had a good word to say about this President. His record stands complete and clear as one of incompetence and irresponsibility as regularly reported in the Cyprus Mail. I have always quoted my reasons for saying this to justify my stance. You however choose to attack and criticise me without laying a single fact to show my statements are incorrect or to boast of a single accomplishment of Christofias. I also believe that as a resident of this country I am entitled to pass an opinion about the administration and only wish it could be more complimentary but I despair over the damage the Idiot President has caused and which has affected me in higher taxes and prices and which grieves me in seeing him make his own citizens suffer.

You are quite correct that I have not spoken about the Turkish troops which occupy just over one third of the island not one half as the only fact you have come up with says incorrectly. The reason for this is that they are not the subject of the thread, therefore you should not be surprised. Did you mention these troops as a diversion to help prevent you making any factual statements to defend your argument and attack on me? I do think it fair to say, however, that the Idiot President once again showed his inability to negotiate, compromise or learn during his pathetic attempts to "solve" this situation, something I feel he had no intention of achieving.

As you mentioned Turkey I might ask your opinion on why Turkey is a thriving country outside of the EU while Cyprus and Greece are in dire financial difficulties within the EU.

You would be far better arguing the facts if you believe yourself to be so correct rather than making personal attacks so I would request that you lay out your argument in favour of all the things Christofias has achieved, why Cyprus is a good place for jobseekers to emigrate to and how you might achieve a reconciliation with Turkey.

Pete


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## MacManiac (Jan 25, 2012)

PeteandSylv said:


> I much prefer to focus on topics and what is being said rather than personal attacks but I do feel that you should take a complete reality check. You have ignored what I and others have said and refused to answer the questions you have been posed.
> 
> At no time have I said Cyprus is a bad place to live. I have told the truth to those who might make a severe financial error in coming here possibly with children, to seek work, while encouraging those who can afford to retire here. I make no apology for this message and rather feel that those of us actually living here and being fully aware of the situation would agree.
> 
> ...


Veronica, Pete and other members of this forum have - in my time in Cyprus - always refused to paint an idyllic picture postcard view of this island, with sunshine ever day and no clouds on the horizon. That is one of the reasons it is the most honest and respected forum for expats in Cyprus (in my opinion).

Much valuable "warts and all" advice was given to us before we moved here and since our arrival. Check back over many of the threads and senior members of this forum have given their honestly-held opinions about whether Cyprus is the right place to move to, depending on the circumstances of the person asking.

Political debate, and the Turkish occupation of part of the island, is relevant in as far as it is a fact of life for all who live here, and the inability to resolve the issue is sad for people on both sides of the "border". 

S8112, I would caution making direct attacks on people who contribute to the many threads on this forum. Pete's opinion, backed up by facts, is just that - his opinion, and incidentally one I respect. Perhaps if this debate is to be anything other than a slanging match, then opinion supported by facts is the way forward.


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## buster12 (Oct 9, 2012)

MacManiac said:


> Veronica, Pete and other members of this forum have - in my time in Cyprus - always refused to paint an idyllic picture postcard view of this island, with sunshine ever day and no clouds on the horizon. That is one of the reasons it is the most honest and respected forum for expats in Cyprus (in my opinion).
> 
> Much valuable "warts and all" advice was given to us before we moved here and since our arrival. Check back over many of the threads and senior members of this forum have given their honestly-held opinions about whether Cyprus is the right place to move to, depending on the circumstances of the person asking.
> 
> ...



Good morning all,

Having started this post, with a enquiry for a local and factual view of the economy at this time, I am grieved that it should appear to have descended into an online argument over personalities and viewpoints. I have found the comments from Pete, McManiac, Veronica, Vegaanders and others very helpful and informative, with the comments from S8112 being somewhat short on fact if I am honest. He is entitled to his view but I am looking for an honest view from on the ground, so can we get back on topic rather than carrying on this bickering please?|!

I am moving on 10th April to live in Cyprus, so I have committed myself to the island warts 'n' all, on tha basis that it is a lovely place to live and maybe once settled in I can in some small way help to make it continue to be so.

So people, let's discuss the island economy, politics etc. by all means but can we keep the arguments out of it - life's too short!!! 

Looking forward to visiting on 20th February on a property search and to see what the current reality is. lane:

Best wishes,

David


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## S8112 (Jan 12, 2013)

Dear David,

I totally agree with you that we should keep the arguments out of it. Also we should all calm down and stop making any confrantational comments to other forum members.

I certainly did not start them, and I never had this intention. However, it seems some members of the forum like to attack other people if they have a different opinion. They called the island's president "an idiot" repeatedly, they keep implying that I am a supporter of the president, while I made it very clear to them that I am not, they said that my advice to you was "bad advice as recommending a restaurant that you know serves poor food", "warts and all advice", and after all that they want to "caution" me for "making direct attacks on people who contribute to the many threads on this forum".

Personally I am going to put a full stop to all these and I am not going to reply to them again, even if they keep provoking me.

I will just concentrate on the topic of this forum, and nothing else.

As I said before, it all depends on your personal circumstances. If for example, you are a young family with children, and you plan to leave Britain for Cyprus, there will be prons and cons. For example, Cyprus is a safer place for your children to grow up, although there are still dangers around, as with any other developed country. You may also find it quite difficult, as the island's main language is Greek, although many Cypriots do speak English quite fluently. However, you will most likely have to send your children to a private English school, which can be costly. If you are a pensioner on the other hand, and you want to buy a house in a sunny place and have a nice life, then Cyprus is an excellent place to retire to. It is also quite close to Britain (about 4-5 hours flight) so you can always easily visit your family, or have them over visiting you. 

Getting a job in Cyprus right now is very difficult, if not impossible, but of course it all depends on your skills. Cyprus is going through a financial crisis at the moment, and there is a lot of uncertainty. The government has indeed not acted when it should, and now has to sign a deal with Troika. It has been negotiating this deal for the last 9 months or so, and still has not reached an agreement. No agreement is expected to be signed until the next president gets into power in February, and it would probably be sometime in March/April before the agreement is signed.

Not being originally from Cyprus, as I am, it can be quite difficult to see how Turkey and the Turkish invasion of Cyprus has a direct impact on this island, so I can understand why some other members of the forum cannot see the relevance between the two. Turkey has indeed invaded the island and occupies unlawfully 38% of the northern part of the island. Moreover, it has indeed killed many civilians during the war, and there are many others who are still missing 39 years later.

Turkey's main political aim since the 1950's, and this is according to official Turkish documets, is to take full control of the whole of Cyprus. Therefore, Turkey is always having a direct effect on anything that goes on in Cyprus, as it is not just occupying the northern part, but it is also trying to adversely influence the Republic of Cyprus, including of course, its economy.

Turkey has long term allies too, and these are also the same countries who refuse to sign the agreement reached by the Cyprus Governement and Troika, and they are asking for further measures. It must also be said here, that all the agreed measures have gone through the Cypriot parliament and have already being approved, passed as laws, and their implimentation has already started.

However, Cyprus' "unfriendly" countries (for their own interests of course), want to pass further measures, so through privitisation of key parts of the island (such as telecommunications and electricity) can get control of these. For all the reasons mentioned above, this is against the island's security, that's why privitisation of key government organisations is not possible.

The same countries are also trying to pass a message around Europe and around the world that Cyprus is in a meltdown and many other things, purely as a propaganda against Cyprus. Unfortunately, many of these things do get published in British media too, and they do scare people off from coming to Cyprus, contributing to the "attack" on Cyprus.

Irrespective of what other people say, when you come to Cyprus, you will see what a lovely country is. Everything is only an hour's drive away, we do drive on the same side of the road, and everything is quite heavily influenced by Britain, so you will feel quite at home.

I hope this helps.

I would be very happy for other members to provide you with their own opinions, but I would, under no circumstances, wish the other members to start commenting on my opinion instead, and continue being confrontational and personally attack me en mass. Although I have a feeling they might still do. Let's hope not.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2013)

S8112 said:


> Dear David,
> 
> I totally agree with you that we should keep the arguments out of it. Also we should all calm down and stop making any confrantational comments to other forum members.
> 
> ...


Two questions arrise:

Discussing Turkey, why not one word about the circumstances that led to the occupation. I think that all that know something about the history agree that Greece had a lot to answer for in this case. 

About the Trojka and state owned business. Cyprus has signed the treaty. Like all other countries it then has to follow this treaty. It is well known that Cyprus has broken a lot of the regulations and paid a lot of fines because of that. When now the Trojka demands privatization of some key objects it is only something that Cyprus has agreed to by signing. EU do not allow any monopoly. And I am very sure that there will be no bailout until these terms are fulfilled.

And again. There will be no bailout if Germany say no. They have the voting power to say yes or no. German people are very tired of paying more and more bailouts.
And there is an parliament election in Germany in September. Angela Merkel will do nothing that can upset the voters in Germany. And it did not help that she lost one regional election this Sunday and this way lost the majority in one of of the parliament chambers. And the opposition is very negative to help Cyprus

In my opinion Cyprus can be far from sure to get the bailout as they want. And Russia has clearly said that they will give no help without to co-ordinate with EU.

But this is my opinion about the Cyprus economy


Anders


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

*Keep tp topic please*

S8112

Any further mention of the Turkish troubles and your post will be deleted. This is totally irrelevant to the thread and only serves to confuse matters.


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## S8112 (Jan 12, 2013)

buster12 said:


> Good morning all,
> 
> Having started this post, with a enquiry for a local and factual view of the economy at this time, I am grieved that it should appear to have descended into an online argument over personalities and viewpoints. I have found the comments from Pete, McManiac, Veronica, Vegaanders and others very helpful and informative, with the comments from S8112 being somewhat short on fact if I am honest. He is entitled to his view but I am looking for an honest view from on the ground, so can we get back on topic rather than carrying on this bickering please?|!
> 
> ...



Dear David,

I would just like to inform you that I am not going to post any more replies to this thread. I think the whole issue has got out of control, and I am going to leave it here. People in this thread are very confrantational.

Many Thanks.


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