# Language requirements for primary and secondary schools in Spain



## 3BFM (Nov 3, 2021)

Hi...We are considering moving our family to Spain for an initial short period (6 months -1 year) with the possibility of staying. We are not Spanish speakers and are homeschoolers in the US; our family consists of a 9-year-old, 13-year-old, and 17 (soon turning 18) year old.

We are wondering about the language requirements and "harsh realities" about immersion education for them? Could anyone give me an idea of what "Spanish proficiency" they need to achieve for school placement and which test (DELE, or other) is offered to test children? For example, is a DELE A2 sufficient or will a DELE B1-B2 be necessary?

Is it reasonable to start the 9-year-old in a state school? Is a private school necessary for the 13-year-old? We would like our eldest to enroll in a vocational program offered in English as well as an immersion language course. 

Any help or direction would be most appreciated...

Thank you,

Angela


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

There are no Spanish language requirements for children to attend school in Spain. In fact, depending on what area of Spain you're in, the primary language used in class may not even be Spanish. For example, in Cataluña it's Catalan, in Valencia it's Valenciano and in Galicia it's Gallego. Not only are children allowed to enroll in school no matter what language they speak, but if they're between the ages of 6 and 16 they're _required_ to be enrolled.

Your 9 year old should be fine in a state school. S/he will probably struggle at first but will soon pick up the language and be OK. For your 13 year old it would be much more of a struggle, especially considering that schools require a massive amount of homework and reading for students that age. So I would recommend an international school.

I'm not sure how many vocational programs you would find in English for your eldest. Anything labelled "bilingual" very often means that some of the classes are given in Spanish and the others are given in the local language mentioned before (Catalan, Valenciano, Gallego...). I'm also not sure about how difficult it would be for your child to be admitted, because at least in my area admittance is very competitive. It's done using a points system based on the student's GPA. I don't know how foreign students fit into that formula. Maybe someone else here on the forum is better informed about this.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I think the above poster is right. No requirements necessary as all children have a right to education irrespective of ability or status. Also it is a statutory necessity under Spanish law ( homeschooling is not allowed, although it might be considered under certain circumstances in certain autonomous regions). 9 year old would probably be okay with the possibility of repeating the year ( if you remained). 13 year old it's a no no. Even with the best intentions they would be at least 15 before being capable of communicating in an okay way but would have effectively failed to complete their secondary education ( officially finishes at 16). This would mean being unable to go to Bacherato etc. 19 year old- even bigger learning curve. Ath this age the person needs to acquiring workplace skills and refining soft skills- an inability to communicate would place them at the bottom of a huge pile. As a parent of a child who started education at 10 and has gone through system I would never do the same again- as it has made aspects of his life very hard.


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## Joey Testa (Jan 5, 2021)

Public schools vary greatly by neighborhood. You need to check that any school you send your kids to has a good reputation as there are a lot of ghetto schools. If you are Roman Catholic definitely choose a Catholic school over a state school.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

What is a ghetto school? Sounds like something from the Stalin era? Do you mean a multicultural school? If so what's so bad about them? Most of us are immigrants !!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

kaipa said:


> What is a ghetto school? Sounds like something from the Stalin era? Do you mean a multicultural school? If so what's so bad about them? Most of us are immigrants !!


I have to admit that I've never heard that term regarding any school where I live - or anywhere I have ever lived, not just in Spain.

As is the case throughout the world, some schools are better than others - but ghetto schools 😕


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

My children go to a Madrid city state school (I guess you could also call it a ghetto school if you wanted to) but we are quite happy with it.
They are surrounded by "real life", they have friends from all kinds of cultures and are of course also immigrants.
It's true that the Spanish curriculum is not exactly what we are used to as British nationals, but having a nun with a huge cross around her neck teaching a classroom full of white Spanish middle-class kids won't change that part of it anyway.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Overandout said:


> My children go to a Madrid city state school (I guess you could also call it a ghetto school if you wanted to) but we are quite happy with it.
> They are surrounded by "real life", they have friends from all kinds of cultures and are of course also immigrants.
> It's true that the Spanish curriculum is not exactly what we are used to as British nationals, but having a nun with a huge cross around her neck teaching a classroom full of white Spanish middle-class kids won't change that part of it anyway.


Things change too.

Going back maybe 10 years, lots of British families started moving out of Jávea to a nearby smaller town, because they thought, with reasonable logic, that their children would 'absorb' Spanish better if they had no choice but to play with Spanish kids in the local primary school there.

Within about three years something like 60% of the children in that school were first language English speakers...


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

xabiaxica said:


> Things change too.
> 
> Going back maybe 10 years, lots of British families started moving out of Jávea to a nearby smaller town, because they thought, with reasonable logic, that their children would 'absorb' Spanish better if they had no choice but to play with Spanish kids in the local primary school there.
> 
> Within about three years something like 60% of the children in that school were first language English speakers...


No danger of that in Madrid!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Overandout said:


> No danger of that in Madrid!


I can imagine!

One reason that I love Jávea is that it's very international. We have more than 60 different nationalities on the padrón.


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## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

kaipa said:


> What is a ghetto school? Sounds like something from the Stalin era? Do you mean a multicultural school? If so what's so bad about them? Most of us are immigrants !!


It's a term that is colloquially used in Germany a lot. It does not necessarily mean multicultural, it can mean quite the opposite. It's more like a way to describe a school serving a economically and socially deprived area no matter the background of the local population.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I think it is perhaps a slightly inappropriate phrase with rather negative connotations!!


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

ALKB said:


> It's a term that is colloquially used in Germany a lot. It does not necessarily mean multicultural, it can mean quite the opposite. It's more like a way to describe a school serving a economically and socially deprived area no matter the background of the local population.


In Spanish these schools are called _un centro educativo de difícil desempeño_, which think in English could be called something like _a school for at-risk students_. 

While they do exist I wouldn't say there are a lot of these schools. They're usually located in very economically deprived areas, so as long as the original poster chooses housing in a decent neighborhood the local school should be fine. 

Just in case anyone's interested, here's a link to a list of all the schools for at-risk students in Andalucia. Scroll down - they're listed in section 3. Schools for at-risk students in Andalucia


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

These are specialschools for kids that have had official problems with the authorities. They are not state schools as such and the OP is not going to find their children sent there because they aren't living in a good area!


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

In many areas of Madrid, including mine, there are the schools the locals consider to be good, and the schools the locals consider to be poor. So they all apply to the schools they consider to be good. The people who "miss out" on the good schools are more likely to be immigrants, many of whom don't have a high level of Spanish and/or don't know how the system works. On top of this, many of the "good" schools are religious concertados, which in itself might be enough to put off many immigrants from sending their kids there (such was the case with us).

So in each area, you end up with all the kids who can't speak much Spanish dumped into one school, which of course spends a disproportionate amount of resources teaching the kids Spanish, and the gap between the schools widens. By the time they leave primary school, the kids' Spanish might be ok but they probably haven't picked up so much English compared to the kids who went to the "good" schools. The kids with a decent level of English are then accepted into the "secciones bilingues" of the institutos, while the rest end up in the "programa en inglés" which is generally of a lower standard.

So while I haven't heard the term "ghetto schools" used, there certainly is a degree of filtering of the immigrants into one school, while all the rest go to a "better" school, and this separation continues thoughout their education to an extent.

That said, this is a known problem, and the regional and national governments have taken various measures to address it. So it might not be such a problem going forward.


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## Joey Testa (Jan 5, 2021)

Chopera said:


> That said, this is a known problem, and the regional and national governments have taken various measures to address it. So it might not be such a problem going forward.


Politicians all send their kids to private or religious schools. With a few exceptions (in well off neighborhoods), state schools are for kids whose parents can´t afford to pay a concertada (Catholic) school.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Joey Testa said:


> Politicians all send their kids to private or religious schools. With a few exceptions (in well off neighborhoods), state schools are for kids whose parents can´t afford to pay a concertada (Catholic) school.


My kids go to a concertado that is not Catholic, and costs €55/month. This actually worked out cheaper than state schools for us because my kids come out of school at 5pm, so my wife and I could keep working full time. Most state schools finish around 2 pm, so if both parents are working they end up having to pay extra for child care or after school activities. I don't think there is much difference between the level of education between state schools and concertados since they have to use the same books, curriculum, etc. In the fact the "bad" school in my area happens to be a concertado, but I think that's a bit of an exception.

I know of parents who pulled their kids out of private schools to send them to the school my kids go to, because they couldn't see any diffeence in the level of education, and I know of others who pulled their kids out of my kids' school and sent them to a private school. Different parents have diffeent ideas about education I guess. Private schools have the advantage of not having to follow the curriculum set by the Spanish state, which tends to be content heavy. My kids seem to spend a lot of their time just copying stuff from a text book into a notebook, with extra marks given for how neatly they do it. They don't get taught so much problem solving or creative thought processes. However that is meant to be changing. The advantage with using so many text books is their education at least has a lot of structure. The only other education system I am familiar with is the English one, and that has its own set o problems as far as I'm concerned. I don't think any system is perfect.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

kaipa said:


> These are specialschools for kids that have had official problems with the authorities. They are not state schools as such and the OP is not going to find their children sent there because they aren't living in a good area!


I have to disagree when you say that they are not state schools as such, at least when talking about the schools in Andalucia. I have two friends who work in two different schools of this type. They are both normal, neighborhood secondary schools for all the children living in that area. The schools have been labelled as "conflictivo" because they are found in very low income/high crime areas. (For anyone familiar with Seville, one is in Las Tres Mil Viviendas and the other is near the Esquina del Gato in San Juan de Aznalfarache). Teachers at these schools are there voluntarily (never randomly assigned as they are at all other state schools), and they're required to have special training. They're also paid a bonus. One of my friends loves working with these at-risk students, but the other one is in it for the extra pay. 

As I said before, unless you live in one of these very low income/high crime areas, you won't find your children being sent to such a school.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Joey Testa said:


> Politicians all send their kids to private or religious schools. With a few exceptions (in well off neighborhoods), state schools are for kids whose parents can´t afford to pay a concertada (Catholic) school.


Wow, talk about a generalization. I'm not sure what area of the country you're thinking of, but I can assure you that around here state schools are NOT for kids whose parents can't afford a concertado. There are plenty of concertado schools near where I live that are considered less than excellent. Choosing a school is really a matter of horses for courses. In my case, we never once considered sending our children to a concertado, and we could well afford it.


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## Joey Testa (Jan 5, 2021)

I am talking about Barcelona. Great to hear that Andalucia has a better state school system.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiaxica said:


> I can imagine!
> 
> One reason that I love Jávea is that it's very international. We have more than 60 different nationalities on the padrón.


Well, as you can imagine there are plenty of different nationalities in Madrid, (even though there is considerable less immigration than the UK). I think what Overandout was referring to is that there is little possibility of there being a school with predominantly English speakers or any other language besides Spanish in Madrid, especially as many of the immigrants are from Spanish speaking countries such as Colombia and Venezuela.
As for semi private schools (concertados) there are good and bad just as there are with state schools. However, state schools have the additional problem of many of the staff being replaced yearly so forming a solid teaching team is a bit of an upward struggle.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, as you can imagine there are plenty of different nationalities in Madrid, (even though there is considerable less immigration than the UK). I think what Overandout was referring to is that there is little possibility of there being a school with predominantly English speakers or any other language besides Spanish in Madrid, especially as many of the immigrants are from Spanish speaking countries such as Colombia and Venezuela.
> As for semi private schools (concertados) there are good and bad just as there are with state schools. However, state schools have the additional problem of many of the staff being replaced yearly so forming a solid teaching team is a bit of an upward struggle.


Yes, I have no doubt that Javea has an international contingent and without turning this into a contest, Madrid City lists 70 nationalities in its padron, and number 70 is actually "all other countries" so there are in excess of 70 nationalities registered.

But the point was as Pesky said, of those 70+ nationalities we (the British) are in 18th position, behind some countries which you can imagine like Romania, Venezuela, Columbia, Peru etc, but with ony 7,927 "Brits" out of the 3.3 million empadronados we are a long way from being dominant in any sense!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Joey Testa said:


> I am talking about Barcelona. Great to hear that Andalucia has a better state school system.


Better to state if you are talking about Spain, Catalonia or just the area that you happen to live in. Spain is a big country and lots of things are regional, education being one of them. In the case of Catalonia for example the whole question of language is a hot potato and many people who wouldn't otherwise do, put their children into private education just to ensure that they have more exposure to the more widely spoken Spanish as apposed to Catalan.


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## Joey Testa (Jan 5, 2021)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Better to state if you are talking about Spain, Catalonia or just the area that you happen to live in. Spain is a big country and lots of things are regional, education being one of them. In the case of Catalonia for example the whole question of language is a hot potato and many people who wouldn't otherwise do, put their children into private education just to ensure that they have more exposure to the more widely spoken Spanish as apposed to Catalan.


Concertado schools in Catalonia also teach through catalan. Only an expensive private school like the "escuela aleman" or "liceo frances" are allowed to teach in foreign langauges. I don´t know of any school that teaches mainly in Spanish, no matter how expensive.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> ...
> As for semi private schools (concertados) there are good and bad just as there are with state schools. However, state schools have the additional problem of many of the staff being replaced yearly so forming a solid teaching team is a bit of an upward struggle.


I was under the impression that after a few years state school teachers could stay put? Or maybe that's just in the institutos? Even so, concertados do seem to have an advantage in that they can control which teachers can stay and which teachers don't. In my kids' concertado school, if there's a "difficult" teacher the Head soon gets to hear about it and simply won't renew their conrtact. On the othe hand, quite a few decent teachers have left the school, possibly because they feel threatened by the Head!


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Chopera said:


> I was under the impression that after a few years state school teachers could stay put? Or maybe that's just in the institutos? Even so, concertados do seem to have an advantage in that they can control which teachers can stay and which teachers don't. In my kids' concertado school, if there's a "difficult" teacher the Head soon gets to hear about it and simply won't renew their conrtact. On the othe hand, quite a few decent teachers have left the school, possibly because they feel threatened by the Head!


... or it maybe because state schools pay way higher than concertados (if they can get in with oposiciones)


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> ... or it maybe because state schools pay way higher than concertados (if they can get in with oposiciones)


I'm not sure the difference between concertados and públicos is so great these days. I guess it depends on the region to an extent.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Every year I teach Bachelerato level kids. It is usually a mix of state and semi-private and I never notice any difference in ability or attitude. Plus the kids seem to know each other socially and get on really well


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

The big difference is that in the concertados the teachers haven't had to pass the oposiciones. Once they do, they move to the state schools.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Overandout said:


> The big difference is that in the concertados the teachers haven't had to pass the oposiciones. Once they do, they move to the state schools.


You make it sound like the teachers in concertados are only there because they can't get into state schools (because they haven't passed the oposiciones). I'm not sure that is necessarily the case. I suspect some teachers might prefer teaching in concertados, regardless of whether they are able to teach in state schools or not.

I think the main practical difference in Madrid is in the timetables. The concertados tend to have an extended day fom 9 to 5, with a 2 hour lunch break, while the state schools run from about 9 to 2. So the concertados have about an extra hour a day, which is used for extra lessons (my kids do chess and robotics for an example) in return for the monthly fee. A lot of other parents I speak to at my kids' school say they chose it because it also does ESO. They don't like the idea of sending their kids to an instituto at the age of 12, which they feel might be a bit intimidating for them.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Well, I do know quite a few teachers and maybe it is just coincidence, but all of those who worked in concertados / private schools, except for one, have gone on to pass the oposiciones and then teach in state schools. 
I don't know any who have passed the oposicion and then stayed in the private sector. 
So in a way, yes, I am suggesting that those who are in the concertados are only there becasue they haven't got through the oposiciones and therefore can't work in the public sector.

Note though I am not saying that this always means that the teachers in the concertados are worse just because they haven't completed the oposiciones. That said, I would be wary about what qualifications they do have.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Yes I can understand nearly all teachers who have taken the oposiciones going to teach in state schools, because why else would they take the oposiciones? My point (that I didn't explain very well) is that there must be a fair few teachers capable of teaching in state schools who don't see the point in doing the oposiciones in the first place. For example if they have a contrato indefinido at the concertado down the road, where all the well-behaved "posh kids" supposedly go, they might not like the idea of being sent to any school in Madrid, at extra cost, at least for the first few years, even though they might get paid a bit more.

Yes at concertados you are placing your trust in the Head to select decent teachers, whereas with state schools you are placing your trust in the oposiciones system to select decent teachers. I'm not sure that either are particularly reliable in practice. Oposiciones at least used to be a test of memorising data rather than ability to teach, and your chances of passing also depended on the number of vacancies that particular year.

Friends I know who teach in institutos generally say there are some incredibly good teachers, and there are some very poor teachers. It's just down to luck as to which ones you get. I think that's probably the same in concertados as well. We're actually thinking of switching our eldest child to an instituto next year anyway, so I guess there's a good chance we'll find out what differences there are for ourselves.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I know one person who teaches in a private school and has worked there for 10 years plus. Every year a new contract, hired in Spetember, fired in July and on the "paro" for July and August. Obviously she has no employee's rights and if one September they decide not to hire her again she will be technically "jodida" (or at least would have to go tou court to get any rights recognised).
She has never wanted the hassle of doing oposiciones and is content with her lot in life, which is fair enough, she is a great person and I'd be happy if she taught one of my kids, as I know her.
But would I be happy sending my kids to a school that works that way? I don't think so really, especially considering that it is an expensive, supposedly elite school.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Chopera said:


> ... For example if they have a contrato indefinido at the concertado down the road, where all the well-behaved "posh kids" supposedly go, they might not like the idea of being sent to any school in Madrid, at extra cost, at least for the first few years, even though they might get paid a bit more. ...


Things must work differently outside of Andalucia. Here in Andalucia students are admitted to concertados using the exact same system that's used with state schools. It's a points system where the most points are given for living in the catchment area. So nearly all of the students in any given concertado school live in the neighborhood where the school is located, just like with state schools. Posh neighborhood, posh kids. Run-of-the-mill neighborhood, run-of-the-mill kids.

I have lots of friends who are teachers. The pay is considerably higher in state schools, often nearly twice as much. But I see the sacrifices state teachers make (being sent to a different school every year, very often outside of their province so that they have to find an apartment/room where to sleep during the work week) and I can't help thinking that the extra money can't be worth it. So I totally understand why some people would prefer working for a concertado. I would never assume that the teachers there are any better or worse than in a state school.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Not sure also if there is an unwritten rule concerning your religious beliefs if you work there. I wouldn't send my kid there specifically for that reason.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

kalohi said:


> Things must work differently outside of Andalucia. Here in Andalucia students are admitted to concertados using the exact same system that's used with state schools. It's a points system where the most points are given for living in the catchment area. So nearly all of the students in any given concertado school live in the neighborhood where the school is located, just like with state schools. Posh neighborhood, posh kids. Run-of-the-mill neighborhood, run-of-the-mill kids.
> 
> I have lots of friends who are teachers. The pay is considerably higher in state schools, often nearly twice as much. But I see the sacrifices state teachers make (being sent to a different school every year, very often outside of their province so that they have to find an apartment/room where to sleep during the work week) and I can't help thinking that the extra money can't be worth it. So I totally understand why some people would prefer working for a concertado. I would never assume that the teachers there are any better or worse than in a state school.


In Madrid they use the same system as well. However schools are allowed to give an extra point, based on their own criteria. There are also points for parents being ex-alumni. As I mentioned previously, the supposedly worst school in my barrio is a concertado, but I think in more expensive areas of Madrid there tend to be more established concertados that have built up high reputations, as well as decent facilities, and charge a few hundred a month rather than the €55 a month we pay. That's enough to filter out the riff-raff. It's an area that has come under a lot of scrutiny from the current Spanish government recently. The recent "Ley Celaá" has made life a bit harder for concertados, and prevented them from differentiating themselves so easily from state schools.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Overandout said:


> I know one person who teaches in a private school and has worked there for 10 years plus. Every year a new contract, hired in Spetember, fired in July and on the "paro" for July and August. Obviously she has no employee's rights and if one September they decide not to hire her again she will be technically "jodida" (or at least would have to go tou court to get any rights recognised).
> She has never wanted the hassle of doing oposiciones and is content with her lot in life, which is fair enough, she is a great person and I'd be happy if she taught one of my kids, as I know her.
> But would I be happy sending my kids to a school that works that way? I don't think so really, especially considering that it is an expensive, supposedly elite school.


Yes I've heard similar. In fact I remember a teacher asking on here whether it was possible to live off the salary she had been offered by a supposedly elite school, and the salary wasn't particularly high.


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