# Staying in Spain most part of year but 'officially living in uk'' ?



## arnoldbeck5555 (Jan 3, 2016)

Hello everybody. I been looking everywhere for this info here. 
Im been living in UK for 5 years now and have my Limited company there and it,s all online so i do travel quite alot and work from home. (i have a icelandic passport)

Now i have taken apartment for rent that i,m currently in and i will be living here for all this year.

I will be flying to UK every 2-3 months for a few days.

It will be better for me to stay in Spain as a tourist as my business is already in UK and i don,t want to change that. I also have my address registered in UK.

Will this be a problem?

They can not see how many days i,ve stayed total as i will be flying in and out regulary.

They don,t even scan the passports at airport so they can never tell how many days total i been here right ?


Anyone knows this ?
It should be ok to be here most parts of the year as i will stay less then 3 months every time before my short trips to UK. 

Thanks and hopefully someone know. 

Arnold


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## davexf (Jan 26, 2009)

Hola Arnold, 

The law and reality can be two different things; The law says after 183 days in Spain, you are liable for tax here. 

The reality is that if you don't use any of Spain's utilities to conduct your business, the authorities may not know of your existence. 

So if your business uses only banks in other countries, then there is nothing to make the authorities suspect that you are running a business. You are therefore a "tourist" - an illegal tourist maybe, but a tourist nevertheless 

Davexf


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

arnoldbeck5555 said:


> Hello everybody. I been looking everywhere for this info here.
> Im been living in UK for 5 years now and have my Limited company there and it,s all online so i do travel quite alot and work from home. (i have a icelandic passport)
> 
> Now i have taken apartment for rent that i,m currently in and i will be living here for all this year.
> ...


 Why would you do this?? Just tell them the truth and then you wont be having to pretend that you are living in the UK when your centre of interest would be in Spain?


Jo xxx


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## arnoldbeck5555 (Jan 3, 2016)

Thanks 
Yeah true. I,m not using any of their service here anyway so it,s fine to stay as ''tourist'' at least to start with. 

Me and wife might move here permanently next year. so then i will move our address officially. 

Thanks for this,.


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## arnoldbeck5555 (Jan 3, 2016)

I am living in the UK, I,m asking now to start with i,m going to stay as a tourist.

Later like next year me and my wife maybe move and buy a flat in Spain. 


Then of course we will move officially.

Thanks.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

arnoldbeck5555 said:


> Thanks
> Yeah true. I,m not using any of their service here anyway so it,s fine to stay as ''tourist'' at least to start with.
> 
> Me and wife might move here permanently next year. so then i will move our address officially.
> ...


Oh dear!

The others have been quite polite and restrained - I'm not going to be!

Within 90 days of being in Spain, you are obliged to sign on the list of foreigners - fact!

After 183 days in any calendar year, you are automatically tax resident and so must pay tax here on all worldwide income - fact!

You are using services here - roads, rubbish collection, utilities etc. So why not pay for it like the rest of us law abiding citizens? What car are you driving - is it on Spanish plates?


What you are doing is wrong and illegal and I don't understand why. You can still be employed by your UK company but you will have to pay tax here and not there (look up double taxation agreement).


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

snikpoh said:


> You are using services here - roads, rubbish collection, utilities etc. So why not pay for it like the rest of us law abiding citizens? What car are you driving - is it on Spanish plates?


Yes, this is an argument I never understand. Presumably anybody living in Spain "for most of the year" would expect the police to be available if they were the victim of a crime, the fire service to be available if their home caught fire, the ambulance service to attend if they were involved in a road traffice accident, people working to keep us all safe from terrorist threats, and so on. Even if we never use them personally, we all have to pay (or should do) to make sure they are there when needed.


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## davexf (Jan 26, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> Oh dear!
> 
> The others have been quite polite and restrained - I'm not going to be!
> 
> ...


Hola 

The reason for many people is that the tax is less and there is less hassle dealing with known authorities in a different language. 

Davexf


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

davexf said:


> Hola
> 
> The reason for many people is that the tax is less and there is less hassle dealing with known authorities in a different language.
> 
> Davexf


which doesn't make it legal of course


to be fair to the OP he isn't doing anything illegal as yet - he was simply asking if what he was proposing was viable

the answer is yes, he can keep going back & forth & leaving within 90 days, which would mean he wouldn't have to register as resident

this wouldn't have any effect on his tax responsibility though, if he was here more than half the year.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> which doesn't make it legal of course
> 
> 
> to be fair to the OP he isn't doing anything illegal as yet - he was simply asking if what he was proposing was viable
> ...


Well .... he states;


> Now i have taken apartment for rent that i,m currently in and i will be living here for all this year.


so his centre of economic interest is here I guess - makes him tax resident straight away.


By-the-way, I'm not sure his tax situation would necessarily be cheaper in UK. Also, his point about them knowing how long he's here is, as we all know, the wrong way around - it's up to him to prove that he's NOT here for 183 days in total.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> Well .... he states;
> 
> 
> so his centre of economic interest is here I guess - makes him tax resident straight away.
> ...


it does sound as if he's only just arrived recently 

as I said though, if he's tax resident he's tax resident - & popping back to the UK for a few days every few months won't make any difference


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## EdofWigan (Jun 28, 2015)

As it is a limited company in the UK, it could be tax wise to utilise the Directors Dividend option, if you are the only director but morally if you are part of the Spanish community, taking out of the system, then you should be putting into it. 

Depending on the turnover of the UK Ltd company, you might like to take advice on Arnold (Sp) Ltd. Taking some professional advice on the formation of a Spanish company, might offer some benefits, as well as meeting your moral obligations.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

arnoldbeck5555 said:


> Hello everybody. I been looking everywhere for this info here.
> Im been living in UK for 5 years now and have my Limited company there and it,s all online so i do travel quite alot and work from home. (i have a icelandic passport)
> 
> Now i have taken apartment for rent that i,m currently in and i will be living here for all this year.
> ...


You know that if living in Spain for all of the year you are supposed to register. Like most things that are not in compliance with the law, it won't be a problem if you don't get caught, and will be if you do.



arnoldbeck5555 said:


> They can not see how many days i,ve stayed total as i will be flying in and out regulary.
> 
> They don,t even scan the passports at airport so they can never tell how many days total i been here right ?
> 
> Anyone knows this ?


Right. They can't use border control records to ascertain your presence and absence because they don't check papers.



arnoldbeck5555 said:


> It should be ok to be here most parts of the year as i will stay less then 3 months every time before my short trips to UK.
> 
> Thanks and hopefully someone know.
> 
> Arnold


Whether you stay less than 3 months every time has nothing to do with it, it's your overall number of days that matters. I think you know that.

As for "hopefully someone will know", I'm not sure what it is you're hoping someone will know. I think you're asking, "will I get away with it". I think you will. But breaking laws has consequences if discovered, so make sure you understand the consequences and are happy with them.


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

arnoldbeck5555 said:


> They can not see how many days i,ve stayed total as i will be flying in and out regulary.
> 
> They don,t even scan the passports at airport so they can never tell how many days total i been here right


Although they don't scan your passport they know exactly when you flew in, and when you flew out. It's called API and you cannot fly between Spain and the U.K. without providing it to the airline, who transmit it to the authorities.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

I doubt very much that Spanish tax authorities use the API to determine presence. It would be a method only useful when dealing with people from the UK, as Schengen area countries don't have to provide API. And I have provided API before and then not boarded the plane. And API isn't a complete record, lots of people drive across borders.

Regardless, I think you'll get away with it. Most Spanish places popular with expats have loads of foreigners working illegally and API has had no impact on the ease with which they do it.

But it's just another thing to niggle at you when you weigh-up the risks.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

CapnBilly said:


> Although they don't scan your passport they know exactly when you flew in, and when you flew out. It's called API and you cannot fly between Spain and the U.K. without providing it to the airline, who transmit it to the authorities.


I was trying to remember what it was called  

The bottom line though, is that if the authorities decided that someone was resident it would be up to them to prove that they weren't rather than for the authorities to prove that they were ,


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Though I'm no expert, I'd have thought that the OP's cash movements would catch him out eventually. He wouldn't be able to open a Spanish bank account so he'd need to keep using UK cards in Spain, and that would attract attention sooner or later.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

davexf said:


> Hola
> 
> The reason for many people is that the tax is less and there is less hassle dealing with known authorities in a different language.
> 
> Davexf


Well, there's a simple solution to those dilemmas: stay in the UK and give up living off rather than in Spain.
If you choose to reside in a country you must accept its tax regime.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Horlics said:


> I doubt very much that Spanish tax authorities use the API to determine presence. It would be a method only useful when dealing with people from the UK, as Schengen area countries don't have to provide API. And I have provided API before and then not boarded the plane. And API isn't a complete record, lots of people drive across borders.
> 
> Regardless, I think you'll get away with it. Most Spanish places popular with expats have loads of foreigners working illegally and API has had no impact on the ease with which they do it.
> 
> But it's just another thing to niggle at you when you weigh-up the risks.


This thread is all beginning to sound like all the other threads where the OP or others
who 'think they can get away with it - or can continue to get away with it' by using
the border hop scam, etc. Are trying to win there own arguements by presentlng
the authorities as a bunch of numbskulls - who don't share cross border information.

All I can say to that - is wake up, think again because they are 'on your case, Sonny Jim'

I'm being serious here - as the various State authorities are getting interconnected.
as they have never been interconnected before. The principle drivers for this being
The Fight against Drugs, Money Laundering, Tax Evasion, International Terrorism, Illegal Smuggling, etc, etc.
Also don't think it's just the Big Fish, its the little Fish as well - like the unpaid UK
Parking ticket that you used to ignore in the past. Now they have the ways and
means of getting the Unpaid parking tickets and Congestion Charge paid, no
matter where you are in Europe.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Chopera said:


> Though I'm no expert, I'd have thought that the OP's cash movements would catch him out eventually. He wouldn't be able to open a Spanish bank account so he'd need to keep using UK cards in Spain, and that would attract attention sooner or later.


Why not ? You only need money & a passport for a non-resident account . If he pays in cash all the time then there'd be nothing to trace ?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

gus-lopez said:


> Why not ? You only need money & a passport for a non-resident account . If he pays in cash all the time then there'd be nothing to trace ?


If he were to be subject to a tax investigation for any reason, wouldn't the records of withdrawals from ATM machines in Spain to get the cash out provide evidence that he had been in Spain for longer periods? You cannot bring large amounts into Spain in cash or you are liable to be stopped at the airport and have the cash confiscated, as has happened to a few high profile individuals recently (Cristiano Ronaldo's mother, for one).


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

If a person is in and out every 3 months, then the 10k you're allowed from outside the Euro region should be enough. I think living on cash brought in is possible if you make frequent journeys.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

gus-lopez said:


> Why not ? You only need money & a passport for a non-resident account . If he pays in cash all the time then there'd be nothing to trace ?


I'm not familiar with non-resident accounts, but it sounds like their very nature makes them precisely the type of thing that would come under scrutiny. If an account holder uses that account to pay restaurant bills or fill up with petrol in Spain continuously then it will probably be noticed. Furthermore, as from next year most governments will have access to bank account data in most other countries (including data from this year). It takes a pretty simple algorithm to spot someone using a bank card continuously in a country they say they are not resident in. Yes he could pay with cash all the time, but withdrawing cash from cash points in Spain would draw the same attention. So would withdrawing large amounts of cash from the UK each time he visited.

And if he does get round that they can catch him via his email, text messages, whatever. We're moving into a world of "big data" whether we like it or not. It's not a question of "them not spotting" any more because "them" is now a computer program that will eventually pick up on this type of thing.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Chopera said:


> I'm not familiar with non-resident accounts, but it sounds like their very nature makes them precisely the type of thing that would come under scrutiny. If an account holder uses that account to pay restaurant bills or fill up with petrol in Spain continuously then it will probably be noticed. Furthermore, as from next year most governments will have access to bank account data in most other countries (including data from this year). It takes a pretty simple algorithm to spot someone using a bank card continuously in a country they say they are not resident in. Yes he could pay with cash all the time, but withdrawing cash from cash points in Spain would draw the same attention. So would withdrawing large amounts of cash from the UK each time he visited.
> 
> And if he does get round that they can catch him via his email, text messages, whatever. We're moving into a world of "big data" whether we like it or not. It's not a question of "them not spotting" any more because "them" is now a computer program that will eventually pick up on this type of thing.


Big Brother is watching YOU


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

The way some people complicate their lives to save small sums of money......anyone with real assets won't need to stoop to petty subterfuge.
All this tax dodging,driving non- Spanish registered cars, flitting in and out of the country....all to gain a paltry few euros.
As the old saying goes, the game isn't worth the candle.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> Big Brother is watching YOU


getting that way


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Chopera said:


> I'm not familiar with non-resident accounts, but it sounds like their very nature makes them precisely the type of thing that would come under scrutiny. If an account holder uses that account to pay restaurant bills or fill up with petrol in Spain continuously then it will probably be noticed. Furthermore, as from next year most governments will have access to bank account data in most other countries (including data from this year). It takes a pretty simple algorithm to spot someone using a bank card continuously in a country they say they are not resident in. Yes he could pay with cash all the time, but withdrawing cash from cash points in Spain would draw the same attention. So would withdrawing large amounts of cash from the UK each time he visited.
> 
> And if he does get round that they can catch him via his email, text messages, whatever. We're moving into a world of "big data" whether we like it or not. It's not a question of "them not spotting" any more because "them" is now a computer program that will eventually pick up on this type of thing.


All of the data is collected and with agreements between governments much of it may be shared when there is an investigation underway, but for the time being at least there is no computer running algorithms to scan through much of it. It's all possible, but it's not happening.

Take Germany as an example. Some countries in the Schengen area provide API even though they don't have to, but Germany, which has strong controls and feelings about the protection of its citizens' data, has been resisting for years. It is unlikely that they're going to allow routine use of scanning techniques to look for and then inform foreign governments of suspected misbehaviour.

Today, if anybody in the UK wants to go through my emails they have two ways of doing so. They can get a warrant to enter my home and seize my computers, if they are there, or they can apply to Microsoft or Google or any other on-line service I use and try to get the information from them. But really, they'd have to have get my computers in the first place to actually know which email services I use.

Does anybody actually know or have any experience of investigations by the Spanish identifying a person who is resident when claiming not to be? I really don't know how they go about it. We can imagine all the ways they might catch a person if we want to, but does anybody know?


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Horlics said:


> All of the data is collected and with agreements between governments much of it may be shared when there is an investigation underway, but for the time being at least there is no computer running algorithms to scan through much of it. It's all possible, but it's not happening.
> ...


At least 50 countries (including Spain and the UK) have signed up to the OECD's "Automatic Exchange of Information":

Global Forum on Transparency and Exchange of Information for Tax Purposes -

My understanding is that from 2017 your UK bank account data will be available to all the other countries signed up to the system. And vice versa. No need for any investigation: governments from those 50 or more countries will just have to log on.

The algorithms will come later on, but they'll have data dating back to 2016.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Chopera said:


> At least 50 countries (including Spain and the UK) have signed up to the OECD's "Automatic Exchange of Information":
> 
> Global Forum on Transparency and Exchange of Information for Tax Purposes -
> 
> ...


Which enables countries to ensure that an individual pays tax where he/she should pay tax. But first, they need to establish where a person lives, which involves an investigation.

Do you know anybody who has been identified as resident when claiming not to be? I'm sure somebody must, and I'd be interested to hear about it.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

I think the new rules are for those with hidden assets. When you look at the amounts many of the PP Government held in Swiss etc. Banks, they have bigger fish to fry.

Yes, they could easily prove where you are based but would they have the resources to do it. For small amounts it would cost more to employ administration staff.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Horlics said:


> Do you know anybody who has been identified as resident when claiming not to be? I'm sure somebody must, and I'd be interested to hear about it.


Loads, if you listen to a man in a bar


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Horlics said:


> Which enables countries to ensure that an individual pays tax where he/she should pay tax. But first, they need to establish where a person lives, which involves an investigation.


As a first sweep, a program could go through all UK bank accounts that show excessive personal spending in Spain. It can then cross check whether each of those people are resident in Spain, and then it can flag those people for further investigation to the Spanish authorities. Eventually a human would probably need to be involved, but not in the first place.

In fact it probably wouldn't be like that, since I believe big data search algorithms tend to match patterns in a none symbolic way, but my point is that all this data will be available for analysis one way or another. It's a huge area of research right now, and algorithms are improving all the time.



Horlics said:


> Do you know anybody who has been identified as resident when claiming not to be? I'm sure somebody must, and I'd be interested to hear about it.


Valentino Rossi and Boris Becker come to mind.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> If he were to be subject to a tax investigation for any reason, wouldn't the records of withdrawals from ATM machines in Spain to get the cash out provide evidence that he had been in Spain for longer periods? You cannot bring large amounts into Spain in cash or you are liable to be stopped at the airport and have the cash confiscated, as has happened to a few high profile individuals recently (Cristiano Ronaldo's mother, for one).


No I said open a non-res account & use cash. Not cards, You jsut transfer in from wherever using internet banking then just withdraw 1,2 5 ,10k in cash & use that as & when.
What you have to remember is tha most spaniards, certainly around where I live use banks accounts for the absolute minimum. direct debits & even that not always . Or anything likely to be wanted to be seen by the tax man. Everything else is paid for in cash.
You only have to have seen the report last year on the deposition being given by a Catalan mp who was asked what he lived on when " Your bank account has never been used for drawing cash or debited by a card in 14 years ?" 
 So even the mp's think that little of the laws that they don't expect to ever be investigated, otherwise they'd put in a little effort


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Chopera said:


> As a first sweep, a program could go through all UK bank accounts that show excessive personal spending in Spain. It can then cross check whether each of those people are resident in Spain, and then it can flag those people for further investigation to the Spanish authorities. Eventually a human would probably need to be involved, but not in the first place.
> 
> In fact it probably wouldn't be like that, since I believe big data search algorithms tend to match patterns in a none symbolic way, but my point is that all this data will be available for analysis one way or another. It's a huge area of research right now, and algorithms are improving all the time.
> 
> ...


But if you don't use the accounts & only cash then there'd be nothing to see ?
Additionally it also works on the principle that people use the same names ? 
One of my brother-in-laws had a tendency to change his name ,legally using a solicitor, on a reasonably regular basis. For many years he ran his own hair dressing salon & I always called him by that name even though he'd changed it twice since giving that up.
He actually had a driving licence in one name ,passport in another,& credit cards in a mixture of all. He used them here to hire a car once & I seriously expected to be arrested ! Nothing was said. He died 14 months back & the son still hasn't sorted it all out :lol:


Another was /is Montserrat Caballe who said she was an Andorran resident for the year but was still at home in Barca.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

I had a strange thing happen at the bank last week when I went to deposit money. The teller asked for my DNI (which they never had - just my bank card), and he asked me where I'm paying taxes. He entered it the bank computer system and said I was now eligible to win a car, as he pointed to a poster with a car on it. So my bank (Unicaja) is checking for the Hacienda.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

AllHeart said:


> I had a strange thing happen at the bank last week when I went to deposit money. The teller asked for my DNI (which they never had - just my bank card), and he asked me where I'm paying taxes. He entered it the bank computer system and said I was now eligible to win a car, as he pointed to a poster with a car on it. So my bank (Unicaja) is checking for the Hacienda.


But banks here have always reported bank earnings to Hacienda. It's actually kind of creepy how your entire income tax report is all done for you when it come time to file. Hacienda knows it all already. Very big brotherish. 

On a related note, last week I received an email from my branch office of La Caixa (where I have an account) and they asked me to provide for them my fiscal number in the United States. They said that they are now required to "share" fiscal information with the United States. I knew this was coming - thanks, Fatca. I've read that this type of "sharing" is soon to be the norm for nearly all foreign bank customers.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

kalohi said:


> But banks here have always reported bank earnings to Hacienda. It's actually kind of creepy how your entire income tax report is all done for you when it come time to file. Hacienda knows it all already. Very big brotherish.
> 
> On a related note, last week I received an email from my branch office of La Caixa (where I have an account) and they asked me to provide for them my fiscal number in the United States. They said that they are now required to "share" fiscal information with the United States. I knew this was coming - thanks, Fatca. I've read that this type of "sharing" is soon to be the norm for nearly all foreign bank customers.


OMG I didn't know the banks reported to the Hacienda. Yes, that is very big brother! I think some others in this thread might want to take notice of that.

What do you mean by your fiscal number in the States? Is that like our social insurance number in Canada and our DNI/NIE here in Spain?


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Chopera said:


> As a first sweep, a program could go through all UK bank accounts that show excessive personal spending in Spain. It can then cross check whether each of those people are resident in Spain, and then it can flag those people for further investigation to the Spanish authorities. Eventually a human would probably need to be involved, but not in the first place.


We can spend all day writing the specs for software to do stuff. The question is, what is actually being done.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Isobella said:


> Loads, if you listen to a man in a bar


The men in the bar I drink in know loads of people who exceed the number of days and yet are not resident. Some of them are those people.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

kalohi said:


> But banks here have always reported bank earnings to Hacienda.


Same in the UK. The tax people get the important numbers from the banks, share trading companies, building societies etc. And they can ask foreign banks in lots of countries for it. And they will supply it to other countries. 

Interestingly, I bought a house in the UK a couple of years ago and had to tell the lawyer where I got the money from. I bought an apartment in Spain and nobody cared enough to ask me.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Horlics said:


> The men in the bar I drink in know loads of people who exceed the number of days and yet are not resident. Some of them are those people.


If you live in Spain (more than the number of days - 183?) what exactly do you have to do?


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

jimenato said:


> If you live in Spain (more than the number of days - 183?) what exactly do you have to do?


Not sure I understand the question, because if it's the question i think it is I am sure you know the answer. Are you asking what process people have to go through?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

jimenato said:


> If you live in Spain (more than the number of days - 183?) what exactly do you have to do?


You go to see a gestor and get him to sort it all out.


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## EdofWigan (Jun 28, 2015)

How much does a Gestor cost ( ROP)


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

EdofWigan said:


> How much does a Gestor cost ( ROP)


Depends on the amount of work required. Ours cost us €30 last year for doing all the sorting out and submitting the tax returns.


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## EdofWigan (Jun 28, 2015)

That seems reasonable. Do hey have an hour or day rate ( just as a guide ) ish!


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Horlics said:


> Not sure I understand the question, because if it's the question i think it is I am sure you know the answer. Are you asking what process people have to go through?


The question really I suppose is - if you live in Spain for more than 183 days do you have to submit a tax return?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

jimenato said:


> The question really I suppose is - if you live in Spain for more than 183 days do you have to submit a tax return?


simply - YES in the next tax year


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> simply - YES in the next tax year


If that is the case then they should run the very simplest of searches within their own database of residents and tax returns and flag up all those who do not submit a tax return.

I'm not exaggerating when I say that I would guess that 90% don't. 

Hardly any of the people I knew in Spain did.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> OMG I didn't know the banks reported to the Hacienda. Yes, that is very big brother! I think some others in this thread might want to take notice of that.


It's quite useful sometimes, like when Hacienda gives back the tax withheld by the bank on savings interest if your income is below the personal allowance.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

jimenato said:


> If that is the case then they should run the very simplest of searches within their own database of residents and tax returns and flag up all those who do not submit a tax return.
> 
> I'm not exaggerating when I say that I would guess that 90% don't.
> 
> Hardly any of the people I knew in Spain did.


If your income is below a certain level, you do not need to submit a tax return, provided you have submitted tax returns in the past - this is roughly similar to the UK system.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Horlics said:


> Same in the UK. The tax people get the important numbers from the banks, share trading companies, building societies etc. And they can ask foreign banks in lots of countries for it. And they will supply it to other countries.
> 
> Interestingly, I bought a house in the UK a couple of years ago and had to tell the lawyer where I got the money from. I bought an apartment in Spain and nobody cared enough to ask me.


Some people we know who bought a house nearby a few months ago had to supply a paper trail for their abogado to prove where the funds came from, so the laissez-faire attitude you encountered doesn't apply everywhere.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

gus-lopez said:


> No I said open a non-res account & use cash. Not cards, You jsut transfer in from wherever using internet banking then just withdraw 1,2 5 ,10k in cash & use that as & when.
> What you have to remember is tha most spaniards, certainly around where I live use banks accounts for the absolute minimum. direct debits & even that not always . Or anything likely to be wanted to be seen by the tax man. Everything else is paid for in cash.
> You only have to have seen the report last year on the deposition being given by a Catalan mp who was asked what he lived on when " Your bank account has never been used for drawing cash or debited by a card in 14 years ?"
> So even the mp's think that little of the laws that they don't expect to ever be investigated, otherwise they'd put in a little effort


But the point is that making cash withdrawals from a non-resident account in Spain over the year would make it hard to make a case that you are not in fact resident in Spain. There are limits on how much cash can be withdrawn at any one time anyway, and people withdrawing large sums and keeping it at home are asking for trouble.

The politicians may have thought little of the laws in the past and thought they'd never be investigated - but more and more of them ARE now being investigated, as we are all reading about. Times are changing and what people got away with in the past they may not be able to get away with for much longer - hopefully.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Many expats are defrauding in both countries. I was asked two years ago by a couple in Spain to allow them to use my address to claim pension credit. I am sure they aren't the only ones. Likewise the ones who are self employed and claim tax credits whilst living in Spain. Having said that I am not Ms outraged when the big boys get away with millions, as long as I sleep at night they can do what they like.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Isobella said:


> Many expats are defrauding in both countries. I was asked two years ago by a couple in Spain to allow them to use my address to claim pension credit. I am sure they aren't the only ones. Likewise the ones who are self employed and claim tax credits whilst living in Spain. Having said that I am not Ms outraged when the big boys get away with millions, as long as I sleep at night they can do what they like.


I can understand where you're coming from.....but it's not that simple.
Corruption, cheating, call it what you will, is on a sliding scale. Whether renting your UK or Spanish property and not declaring the income, asking for a cash price to avoid IVA, working or employing people on the black, fiddling your company accounts...it all comes under the same description: illegal and immoral.
Illegal because it's against the law and immoral because it means that the person evading these taxes is essentially freeloading.
I'll be frank: I'm not without sin here. I pay the man who looks after our garden in cash. He earns less than the legal minimum wage as he is employed by a subcontractor as a gardener at a posh hotel. He gets no sick or holiday pay in spite of his contract. If he complains he fears he will be sacked. In December I paid him €50. Not much to do last month in our garden.
My partner is a strict observer of all laws and rules. She ran her businesses and managed her employees with total fairness and honesty. No discounts for cash, every penny of tax due paid.
The difference between her and our gsrdener is that she can afford honesty. He has to support a wife and two children on a miserable wage.
Tbh I have no idea how to break this vicious circle which is holding the country back, starving it of much- needed revenue. It could be argued that the reason why there has been so little real social unrest is that many of the unemployed work regularly or irregularly on the black.
The corruption culture exists in all countries but is worse in countries that have experienced fascist or socialist dictatorships and lack functioning civil societies. Maybe the only way to defeat it is by punishment and shame....but then the worst offenders use their power and position to avoid punishment and shame seems a quaint old- fashioned notion.
I'm outraged that my gardener is treated so badly at his so- called legal work that he has to supplement his wages on the black, even though the extra amount he earns is paltry. The way the rich flagrantly break therules infuriates me. 
And reading posts from some posters on this Forum as to how they intend to save a few euros by not registering as resident, evading tax, driving illegal UK cars strikes me as rather pathetic as well as annoying.
Living here legally hasn't cost me very much. I like and respect this country and try to obey the laws.
If you have to fiddle and fudge to be able to live here, sorry but you can't afford Spain. Try Albania instead.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

AllHeart said:


> What do you mean by your fiscal number in the States? Is that like our social insurance number in Canada and our DNI/NIE here in Spain?


In the States its the Social Security number. It's the number that identifies you to the IRS (the national tax authorities).


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Mary, I agree but I still find it hard to condemn anyone at the bottom of the pile. When I read about non-doms, Amazon etc. Paying no tax and members of the PP and associates stashing billions off shore it beggars belief. I think the rot starts at the top. When I was doing A levels I had a Saturday job at the Co-op. Soon Sussed out the Manager was on the fiddle and like the rest of the staff thought nothing of taking a packet of crisps or a Kit Kat. Wrong, but I never felt guilty.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Isobella said:


> Mary, I agree but I still find it hard to condemn anyone at the bottom of the pile. When I read about non-doms, Amazon etc. Paying no tax and members of the PP and associates stashing billions off shore it beggars belief. I think the rot starts at the top. When I was doing A levels I had a Saturday job at the Co-op. Soon Sussed out the Manager was on the fiddle and like the rest of the staff thought nothing of taking a packet of crisps or a Kit Kat. Wrong, but I never felt guilty.


Yes, of course you're quite right. As Berthold Brecht once wrote, 'What is robbing a bank compared to owning one...'

Totally off- topic..I don't usually post at this time -04.25 -but I was woken up by being rained on although I'm a good three or four metres from an open window. It's blowing a gale and torrential rain and I can't get back to sleep.
And I've woken up the dog who is annoyed at being dislodged from his usual sleeping place, next to me, head on pillow...


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> If your income is below a certain level, you do not need to submit a tax return, provided you have submitted tax returns in the past - this is roughly similar to the UK system.


So it's not exactly simple then.

Anyway, most of the expats I know have never submitted a tax return. It would be very easy to find them. I wonder why they don't.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> The way the rich flagrantly break therules infuriates me.


or "fragrantly," even, i.e. it stinks!

A lady comes to clean for us once a week for a couple of hours (she also sleeps over to keep an eye on the suegra if we want to be away for a weekend) for which she gets 30€. She is of pensionable age but gets no pension because she had poorly parents to look after and was unable to work and contribute to the system.

Our builder, decorator and plumber (all Spanish) play things by the book and take their payments by bank transfer.


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## EdofWigan (Jun 28, 2015)

I am a great believer in paying your way, morally and legally but I am also aware that forums are part of many peoples developmental learning.

I started off thinking I would retire to Asia (Siem Reap) I love the place, every day is an adventure and totally different to my current life in Lancashire, England.

The more i visited and chatted with friends on forums, the more I began to see teh place through, well less than 'Rose Coloured Glasses' 

Post accident health care, standards of street food, rising levels of crime against property and general costs of living, plus, for me the most negative, a migration of 'Bottom Feeders' the now less accommodating Thailand. 

So, my happy research turned to places closer to home and specifically the City of Alicante. Of late i have decided to bridge my current life to my new one in Alicante, with a couple of years or so, full timing in a motor home.

Finally, I get to my point  (about time, i hear you cry) 

I was intent on spending that motorhome time, pottering about Spain, checking out other possible locations, developing new friendships,, learning the language, enjoying the culture.

As I have enjoyed reading thread after thread on here, I have developed my understanding of my whole 'Spanish Adventure' and now I need to rethink some aspects, better to do that at this stage.

Thank you for all the great advice and please keep it coming

Arnold - Well he too started this thread thinking one way and I am sure, like me has changed his plans accordingly, isn't that what is great about this forum? 

_ 'The Spain Expats forum is a dedicated community of people who have moved to Spain, or who are planning to. This is the place for Expats to meet and discuss anything about moving to, & living in, Spain'_

Isn't life a great adventure?


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

jimenato said:


> If that is the case then they should run the very simplest of searches within their own database of residents and tax returns and flag up all those who do not submit a tax return.
> 
> I'm not exaggerating when I say that I would guess that 90% don't.
> 
> Hardly any of the people I knew in Spain did.


Which is my point. I know what people should do, and that's the advice that people here are given, i.e. the legal way of doing things.

But the reality is that there are many people who have been living in Spain for years who have never done this. We can dream up all the snazzy ways that computer "algorithms" could sniff them out, but the fact is that today either the sniffing doesn't occur or the sniffed remain undetected. And we're talking about ordinary people who scrape an illegal living "on the black" or those who are retired and hate the idea of paying a bit of tax, not global stars with high net worth.

Oh, and they can't search the database of residents because most of the people won't have registered as resident.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Horlics said:


> We can spend all day writing the specs for software to do stuff. The question is, what is actually being done.


I haven't got a clue what is being done right now, my main point is that at some point something will be done, and then it will be back dated.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Horlics said:


> Which is my point. I know what people should do, and that's the advice that people here are given, i.e. the legal way of doing things.
> 
> But the reality is that there are many people who have been living in Spain for years who have never done this. We can dream up all the snazzy ways that computer "algorithms" could sniff them out, but the fact is that today either the sniffing doesn't occur or the sniffed remain undetected. And we're talking about ordinary people who scrape an illegal living "on the black" or those who are retired and hate the idea of paying a bit of tax, not global stars with high net worth.
> 
> Oh, and they can't search the database of residents because most of the people won't have registered as resident.


I'm not sure about other regions but in Madrid I know people who have been hammered by Hacienda recently. One of them rented out their flat to someone under 35 and (correctly) thought they didn't have to pay tax on the income. However they were still meant to declare it and Hacienda's fine for non-declaration ran to something like €10k. Also English teachers tell me that few people teach cash in hand any more, unless they are autonomo and declare it. Too many stories of people being caught. I've certainly noticed a sea-change here. Maybe they haven't got round to sniffing out tax dodging expats on the costas yet, but I know what the underlying trend is.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Chopera said:


> I'm not sure about other regions but in Madrid I know people who have been hammered by Hacienda recently. One of them rented out their flat to someone under 35 and (correctly) thought they didn't have to pay tax on the income. However they were still meant to declare it and Hacienda's fine for non-declaration ran to something like €10k. Also English teachers tell me that few people teach cash in hand any more, unless they are autonomo and declare it. Too many stories of people being caught. I've certainly noticed a sea-change here. Maybe they haven't got round to sniffing out tax dodging expats on the costas yet, but I know what the underlying trend is.


Well, if nothing else it will lend even less credence than it already has to the excuse some tax dodging expats use that they don't see why they should pay when "the Spanish" are tax dodging too. For myself, when I was growing up my parents went to great lengths to teach me that just because other people were doing something that didn't make it right, and that has obviously stuck.


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## EdofWigan (Jun 28, 2015)

There could be two distinct tactics here, by the Spanish authorities:

1. to dissuade people from not paying, in which case make a high profile of hitting a few folk really hard.

2. revenue, in which case, slowly spread your net far and wide, test it a little and discreetly, fine tune it and then gather in your net. Catch as many folk as possible and fine them each 10 to 20k 

If the second option is being chosen, then expats would be a good fishing ground on which to cast your nets. 

For those who do and always have paid their share, nothing to worry about. 

For those who have not, maybe best to change their ways if they get caught on their next tax return, they will look back, i think four years.

_(In the UK it is 7 years but if they find naughty things they can look back much further) _

For those who think:
_
'We have always got away with it'_

Some fishing grounds provide easier catches than others, I guess

:fish2:


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Horlics said:


> those who are retired and hate the idea of paying a bit of tax,


Pensioners who are retired here and not registered as resident wouldn't be able to access state healthcare in Spain with an S1, so anybody who avoids registering in order not to pay a bit of tax must be mad.

What usually happens if they've been living here under the radar for several years before reaching pension age, is that they rush off and register as soon as they begin receiving their state pension, ie when there's something in in for them, they suddenly become converted to law abiding citizens.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

EdofWigan said:


> I am a great believer in paying your way, morally and legally but I am also aware that forums are part of many peoples developmental learning.
> 
> I started off thinking I would retire to Asia (Siem Reap) I love the place, every day is an adventure and totally different to my current life in Lancashire, England.
> 
> ...


A lot of research is essential if you are going to successfully make the transition from a "normal" working life in the country of your origins/where you have lived longest to a new/another country for "retirement" purposes.

When we started doing our research back in 2000, there were very few forums about so everything had to be done from scratch. Firstly you need to decide on several things:
Where - Which country, Coastal, Inland, Flat area, Mountainous, etc.
Climate - Always warm, Always cool/hot, Warm/hot summers + cool/cold winters, Same all year, etc.
Environment - Countryside, town/city, outskirts of large town/city, middle of nowhere, etc.
Types of accommodation - Single family houses (detached/semi-detached/terraced, etc), How many storeys, Apartment/flat - low rise/high rise, With garage, Garden, etc.
etc.

This should give you a better idea of what to look for and where. With the wealth of information available on the internet, you can have a pretty good idea of where you plan to live without leaving the comfort of your own home. Google Earth is a very useful tool that gives you the opportunity to do a virtual walk around the places you are interested in - you can see where there are bus-stops, trains, town/city centre facilities, the level of graffiti and other detractions.

Once you have narrowed your search down to a few places, that is the time to come and visit to see whether what you have considered to be the better options/necessities for you, are likely to be there.


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## EdofWigan (Jun 28, 2015)

That sounds just like me, currently I am a Keyboard Explorer' with regular trips out to places like Alicante City but i want to explore further.

Ultimately, buy a place somewhere but still keep a smaller camper for overnighting.

Has anyone seen a thread on living in an apartment in Alicante City? I don't like to repeat but my search has not shown one yet. 

I can afford 'Bricks n Mortar' now in Spain but, for me it is more about getting the right location and type of property, for me Albania will not be necessary.

Although a single man of simple means, I like a My Time:Sociable balance and so would not like to be to far from the madding crowd. 

I like and enjoy my keyboard and quick trip research, I look forward to making teh move but I am not running away from anything, so no mad rush. I would much rather get it right, I guess.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

EdofWigan said:


> That sounds just like me, currently I am a Keyboard Explorer' with regular trips out to places like Alicante City but i want to explore further.
> 
> Ultimately, buy a place somewhere but still keep a smaller camper for overnighting.
> 
> ...


We were of the same mind and now in our eighth year, we are sure we did get it right. In fact, we were so certain that we had planned it correctly we jumped in with all feet, sold our flat in UK and bought here - haven't regretted it at all.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

EdofWigan said:


> For those who have not, maybe best to change their ways if they get caught on their next tax return, they will look back, i think four years.
> 
> _(In the UK it is 7 years but if they find naughty things they can look back much further) _
> 
> ...


If deliberate tax evasion is involved, the Spanish tax authorities can (and have, in some of the cases involving non declaration of assets held overseas) go back much further than 4 years.

http://p-and-a.es/english-form-720-news/?lang=en


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## EdofWigan (Jun 28, 2015)

Lynn R said:


> If deliberate tax evasion is involved, the Spanish tax authorities can (and have, in some of the cases involving non declaration of assets held overseas) go back much further than 4 years.
> 
> Form 720 News - Porta & Associates


I think this is like the UK. If they find or suspect something then they can keep going back


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

kalohi said:


> In the States its the Social Security number. It's the number that identifies you to the IRS (the national tax authorities).


It's the same in Canada, in that we use our SIN (social insurance number) for our tax return. Since they asked at the bank for my DNI here when asking about where I pay taxes, I take it it's the same here in Spain, that the DNI is used for tax ID.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

EdofWigan said:


> I think this is like the UK. If they find or suspect something then they can keep going back


In Canada, if they suspect something, they can go back and audit 7 years. So you have to keep all tax records for seven years. They also do random checks - not just when something looks suspicious.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Isobella said:


> Many expats are defrauding in both countries. I was asked two years ago by a couple in Spain to allow them to use my address to claim pension credit. I am sure they aren't the only ones. Likewise the ones who are self employed and claim tax credits whilst living in Spain. Having said that I am not Ms outraged when the big boys get away with millions, as long as I sleep at night they can do what they like.


If you work in the UK & live in Spain you have a legal right to tax credits.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> But the point is that making cash withdrawals from a non-resident account in Spain over the year would make it hard to make a case that you are not in fact resident in Spain. There are limits on how much cash can be withdrawn at any one time anyway, and people withdrawing large sums and keeping it at home are asking for trouble.
> 
> The politicians may have thought little of the laws in the past and thought they'd never be investigated - but more and more of them ARE now being investigated, as we are all reading about. Times are changing and what people got away with in the past they may not be able to get away with for much longer - hopefully.


There is no limit on the amount that can be drawn subject to the cleared balance of the account. Same in Uk , though they get funny. 
Always intrigues me when people are withdrawing huge amounts up here & everyone is watching.Or paying in . & everyone does a quick mental calculation when the note counter figure stops :lol:
You can legally carry without specifying where it came from up to 100k in Spain.

Spaniards have always kept large amounts of cash under the tiles.
When the crisis started they stated that the spaniards had 54billion euros under the tiles in 500€ notes alone. Without anything else ! 
In 2013 they were proudly stating that some 5 billion of this amount had been " returned to the economy " 
As the wag said " Only another 49 years then " :rofl:

One of my neighbours paid for a 3 storey apartment to be built without ever going anywhere near a bank. Mind you he never went anywhere near the building office either ! :rofl:


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Lynn R said:


> Pensioners who are retired here and not registered as resident wouldn't be able to access state healthcare in Spain with an S1, so anybody who avoids registering in order not to pay a bit of tax must be mad.
> 
> What usually happens if they've been living here under the radar for several years before reaching pension age, is that they rush off and register as soon as they begin receiving their state pension, ie when there's something in in for them, they suddenly become converted to law abiding citizens.


Agreed. I was thinking of people like me, retired but not yet of pension age.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> But the point is that making cash withdrawals from a non-resident account in Spain over the year would make it hard to make a case that you are not in fact resident in Spain. There are limits on how much cash can be withdrawn at any one time anyway, and people withdrawing large sums and keeping it at home are asking for trouble.
> 
> The politicians may have thought little of the laws in the past and thought they'd never be investigated - but more and more of them ARE now being investigated, as we are all reading about. Times are changing and what people got away with in the past they may not be able to get away with for much longer - hopefully.


I don't know - why people think that - the only way the authorities could possibly trace whether I have been staying in one country more than 183 days, rather than another. Is by Credit or Debit card transactions or cash withdrawals from ATM machines ( for those seeking to maintain a low profile )
or by the Border agencies scanning your passports - I know unlike the UK Border Agency - the typical Spanish Border Guard only gives a cursory look of your Passport. Unless crossing within the Schengen border zone - where there's no passport checks at all !!!
Present Migrant Crisis being one of only two exceptions lately, of course.

But hold on folks - were living in the 21st Century here, we have the technology or rather they
( the Authorities ) have the technology.
Think about it - unless your an absolute died in the wool Luddite, who has shunned all the latest gadgets &
innovations such as Micro Computers, Laptops, Tablet computers, the mobile phone, the internet, online banking, online gambling, sharedealing, email, Facebook, Twitter, etc, etc - need I go on ? since the 1980's.
The Authorities have all the ways and means of precisely knowing what you do,
where you go and what you get up to - without you even knowing about it.

*Yes - of course, it's only a matter of time before Q branch of HMRC and the
Spanish Hacienda are on the case, if they're not on the case already ?*
:rofl: :rofl:

We have the Technology - BBC News on the latest gadgets & Gizmo's used by The Authorites


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

gus-lopez said:


> There is no limit on the amount that can be drawn subject to the cleared balance of the account. Same in Uk , though they get funny.
> Always intrigues me when people are withdrawing huge amounts up here & everyone is watching.Or paying in . & everyone does a quick mental calculation when the note counter figure stops :lol:
> You can legally carry without specifying where it came from up to 100k in Spain.
> 
> ...


Yes the €500 note used to be known as a "Bin Laden" in Spain, because nobody ever saw one.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Williams2 said:


> I don't know - why people think that - the only way the authorities could possibly trace whether I have been staying in one country more than 183 days, rather than another. Is by Credit or Debit card transactions or cash withdrawals from ATM machines ( for those seeking to maintain a low profile )
> or by the Border agencies scanning your passports - I know unlike the UK Border Agency - the typical Spanish Border Guard only gives a cursory look of your Passport. Unless crossing within the Schengen border zone - where there's no passport checks at all !!!
> Present Migrant Crisis being one of only two exceptions lately, of course.
> 
> ...


Yes but some people , due to the rfid's in the passport& credit cards ,the use lead shields or these ;

What Are RFID-Blocking Wallets & Which Should You Buy?

As well as using vpn's etc anytime using a computer. As well as using nom de pleumes.
You'd be amazed at the amount of people that don't use facebook & all the other stuff.
I even came across a relative last summer where they both use one persons cards for drawing cash? then again thinking about I've done it with the wife's when she isn't here.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Chopera said:


> Yes the €500 note used to be known as a "Bin Laden" in Spain, because nobody ever saw one.


No, because nobody ever SAID they had seen one !

Years back I went in a bar & Estanco for cigarettes & saw three used to pay in quick succession. 2 in the bar & one for ****. Did wonder about the ability to change them but bloke behind the bar never batted an eyelid.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

gus-lopez said:


> Always intrigues me when people are withdrawing huge amounts up here & everyone is watching.Or paying in . & everyone does a quick mental calculation when the note counter figure stops :lol:


Yes, that's why things like this can sometimes happen. Not so funny then, is it?


Suspects on trial for the murder of German couple in Chilches in 2007. Surinenglish.com

There have been two more cases, since I've lived here, of estate agents having been robbed of large amounts of cash having just left bank branches after withdrawing client funds for property purchases. And a local tobacconist robbed in the street and hit over the head as he was carrying takings to the bank.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> Yes, that's why things like this can sometimes happen. Not so funny then, is it?
> 
> 
> Suspects on trial for the murder of German couple in Chilches in 2007. Surinenglish.com
> ...


I'm glad I don't live there, then.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

gus-lopez said:


> If you work in the UK & live in Spain you have a legal right to tax credits.


But if you live in Spain and receive a UK pension you are not entitled to receive Pension Credit (which is what Isobella referred to someone asking to use her address in order to claim it) as you must live in Great Britain to be eligible to claim it.

https://www.gov.uk/pension-credit/eligibility


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Lynn R said:


> Yes, that's why things like this can sometimes happen. Not so funny then, is it?
> 
> 
> Suspects on trial for the murder of German couple in Chilches in 2007. Surinenglish.com
> ...


I remember an old Spanish couple being robbed in Malaga after leaving a bank. The only time we withdrew a large amount of cash we were taken into a back office at Solbank handed the money and warned to be careful. Perhaps we look a bit dim was impressed by that.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Williams2 said:


> I don't know - why people think that - the only way the authorities could possibly trace whether I have been staying in one country more than 183 days, rather than another. Is by Credit or Debit card transactions or cash withdrawals from ATM machines ( for those seeking to maintain a low profile )
> or by the Border agencies scanning your passports - I know unlike the UK Border Agency - the typical Spanish Border Guard only gives a cursory look of your Passport. Unless crossing within the Schengen border zone - where there's no passport checks at all !!!
> Present Migrant Crisis being one of only two exceptions lately, of course.
> 
> ...


Followed by your reply . . . . . 



gus-lopez said:


> Yes but some people , due to the rfid's in the passport& credit cards ,the use lead shields or these ;
> 
> What Are RFID-Blocking Wallets & Which Should You Buy?
> 
> ...


By _some people_ - I assume your referring to those people who do have something to
hide - in which case, they will no doubt be drawing attention to themselves by
doing exactly what you say. Namely being 'out of character' to the actions of a
normal, law abiding citizen with nothing to hide.

Also look around you on the high street and ask yourself honestly, how many people
love their mobile these days. That is the number of people who - for one reason or
another - cannot live without their mobile these days !!!


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## EdofWigan (Jun 28, 2015)

Won't the flat-rate pension policy, remove the Pension Credit system, in time? 

Then everyone will just get £150 (although 140 was mooted) per week ?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> There is no limit on the amount that can be drawn subject to the cleared balance of the account. Same in Uk , though they get funny.
> Always intrigues me when people are withdrawing huge amounts up here & everyone is watching.Or paying in . & everyone does a quick mental calculation when the note counter figure stops :lol:
> You can legally carry without specifying where it came from up to 100k in Spain.
> 
> ...


This is true, but I think it may be a minority of Spaniards and they have huge amounts stashed away. OH hasn't got any under the mattress, that I can guarantee



gus-lopez said:


> Yes but some people , due to the rfid's in the passport& credit cards ,the use lead shields or these ;
> 
> What Are RFID-Blocking Wallets & Which Should You Buy?
> 
> ...


OH doesn't have a mobile.
I think he's almost the only male on the planet under 60 without one


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Williams2 said:


> Followed by your reply . . . . .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's the government line. "if you have nothing to hide then " 
I have nothing to hide, I pay my taxes as & when due. I have no wish for anyone to know where I am or what I am doing unless I wish to tell them. It is called the right to privacy.
I'd use them/have used them specifically because terrorists use scanners & not being the sort of person that trusts anyone, & certainly not anyone that is supposedly in government/authority , I'm just looking after myself.They usually know when I've arrived anywhere as I don't do the nonsense waiting at passport for iris scanners, whats that all about ? wouldn't mind if it even worked properly, & kick off so I don't have any reason to hide. When I drive in I'm always stopped .


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

EdofWigan said:


> Won't the flat-rate pension policy, remove the Pension Credit system, in time?
> 
> Then everyone will just get £150 (although 140 was mooted) per week ?


I suppose so, although it will take a long time. The so called flat rate pension is no such thing, though, because anybody who was contracted out of the SSP for any of their working life won't get the full amount - although they wouldn't have been entitled to Pension Credit either as they'd have an additional pension in addition to the basic State Pension.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> But if you live in Spain and receive a UK pension you are not entitled to receive Pension Credit (which is what Isobella referred to someone asking to use her address in order to claim it) as you must live in Great Britain to be eligible to claim it.
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/pension-credit/eligibility


I only pointed out about tax credits as Isobella also mentioned them.

" Many expats are defrauding in both countries. I was asked two years ago by a couple in Spain to allow them to use my address to claim pension credit. I am sure they aren't the only ones. Likewise the ones who are self employed and claim tax credits whilst living in Spain. Having said that I am not Ms outraged when the big boys get away with millions, as long as I sleep at night they can do what they like."


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## EdofWigan (Jun 28, 2015)

£155.65 for people getting to state pension age after 6th April next year and having the full number, or more of qualifying years contribution (30)


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

EdofWigan said:


> £155.65 for people getting to state pension age after 6th April next year and having the full number, or more of qualifying years contribution (30)


Are you sure? The number of qualifying years for a full State Pension used to be 30, but has now been increased to 35.

I will have 34 years' NI contributions when my State Pension becomes due in 2022, but I won't get anything like the full amount as I was contracted out (meaning I paid NI contributions which were reduced by 1.5%) for about two-thirds of my working life - but my pension will be reduced by a lot more than 1.5% per qualifying year.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

You are ALL lucky. When I retired it was 44 years but since I was a few short, I had to buy some to make me up to the full 44, then the following week they dropped it to 30. They knew about that when they made me pay for the extra to make 44 - Bar Stewards


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## EdofWigan (Jun 28, 2015)

Lynn R said:


> Are you sure? The number of qualifying years for a full State Pension used to be 30, but has now been increased to 35.
> 
> I will have 34 years' NI contributions when my State Pension becomes due in 2022, but I won't get anything like the full amount as I was contracted out (meaning I paid NI contributions which were reduced by 1.5%) for about two-thirds of my working life - but my pension will be reduced by a lot more than 1.5% per qualifying year.


Yes, my apologies Lynn, one page said 30 and another has said it has now changed to 35


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## C.G. (Jan 6, 2016)

Hi,
I have been living in Spain for 3 years, and it seems you know how long you can stay etc.
I am Norwegian, go back and forth to Norway.
I rent an apt for a year at the time in Spain, but it does not necessary mean I`m there all year.
I want to "remain Norwegian" for numerous reasons, I have my own company registered in Norway, like you, and would be paying double tax for quite some time, if I decided to pay tax to Spain instead.
I could get tax back from Norway, but had to apply, and lot of inconvenience follows.
I would very soon loose all rights as Norwegian citizen, including pension, when that day comes.
If I decide to move back to Norway again, I can`t just say:
"Hi, I want my rights back," Does not work that way.

When I first came to Spain, I went to apply for Recidencia, but the answer was no, you don`t need it, you can stay as long as you like.


Remember one thing;
If you plan to stay all year, you probably need internet? and insurance?
Then you need the NIE, as without it you can not get internet unless it`s in someone else`s name.
To get a NIE, you need a Spanish bank-account,
and vice verca.
and to get insurance, you need a Spanish bank-account as well.
I have a private insurance, as without Recidencia, you will not be able to use the Spanish health-benefits.
I have no opinion in what people should do, or not do,
all I know is that my Spanish friends asks, "Who asks how long you stay??" 
"You foreigners are far too honest lol"

If they came after you for some reason, and you had to prove your days here/in your home-country,
they would have a difficult job, and dive deep in your use of credit-cards etc. if they did not take your word for it.
Me, I haven`t even shown my passport when traveling for a long time, 
only plane-tickets I save, just in case,
and here I have the impression it is only your own conscience that decides, if you stay a bit longer
than the law says.

Best of luck!
Christine


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

EdofWigan said:


> Yes, my apologies Lynn, one page said 30 and another has said it has now changed to 35


It's 30.


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## samthemainman (Aug 15, 2012)

Hi Christine - While it's difficult comment on your situation without knowing the full detail of how long you spend where etc., my stance is quite different. UK tax rules may be different from Norwegian rules. I also don't own my own business but rather work for a UK company, am on a UK payroll, and occasionally travel to the UK on an incidental basis (i.e. half a dozen times a year for a couple of days) for work purposes.

I too had a double taxation challenge in my first year as I had to claim back a year's worth of income tax from the UK Inland Revenue (HMRC) AFTER paying my Renta in Spain. My tax was being deducted at source (Pay As You Earn) in my monthly pay, and to get a different (i.e. No) tax code approval from HMRC was an utter faff - but I had to do it. Fellow UK citizens will probably vouch for the slowness and incompetence in processing paperwork that isn't done online. It took ages and I did have a tax flow problem for a short time. However I continue to pay National Insurance contributions in the UK, voluntarily - which goes towards pensions and other benefits should I eventually return to the UK.

But as I live for the majority of my time in Spain, I'm fully tax resident here - that's the rules. Any rental income I've received in the past from property in the UK, has been subject to tax in the UK, but also declared in Spain with the UK tax paid offset - so I'm not taxed twice on the same income. I pay several thousand pounds a year more in tax here than I did in the UK (not helped by the current exchange rate!) - but it's just the way it is.

I live in Spain for the majority of my time so it's only reasonable for Spain to expect me to pay my way for the provision of defence, the police, the fire service, the justice system, local government, roads, railways, buses etc. and other public services.

While I accept that some individuals' personal circumstances may be more complex and very different from mine, where you pay your taxes should not be a matter of personal choice (or 'conscience') but it is determined by strict criteria set by the respective countries' tax authorities.

Sometimes the more I read on this forum of so many different people asking how they can get out of paying taxes, get out of signing on the EU foreigners list ('residencia'), get free public healthcare when they're not pensioners, get out of changing their driving licence, get out of signing on the Padron... the list goes on!

I'm not aiming the above comments at you specifically Christine - but I wanted to air my views for the other forum members too 

However you do make some points which I think may confuse/mislead some newer members:

_Remember one thing;
If you plan to stay all year, you probably need internet? and insurance?
Then you need the NIE, as without it you can not get internet unless it`s in someone else`s name._
If you stay all year - you're almost always going to be 'resident' and should sign on the EU foreigners list/(often misleadingly called 'residencia' ). You don't need a NIE to get a fixed line telephone or the internet either. At least not with Movistar. I set up mine with my passport when I first got here, before I could get my NIE/'Residencia' which I did after three months. In fact I could set up all my utilities except water without the NIE and with my passport. 

_To get a NIE, you need a Spanish bank-account,
and vice verca._
Not true. You can also get a non-resident Spanish bank-account with just your passport. 

_and to get insurance, you need a Spanish bank-account as well.
I have a private insurance, as without Recidencia, you will not be able to use the Spanish health-benefits.
_
Do you mean 'medical insurance?' - if so, yes you probably do need a Spanish bank account - but if you live in Spain, you'd have one, wouldn't you? Otherwise you'd be a tourist - where travel insurance and/or EHIC would be used. Also your comment implies that with Residencia you would qualify for public healthcare - when actually you don't, unless you are paying Social Security or are part of the Convenio Especial. You actually need to prove your healthcare provision (either of those two OR private medical insurance) to obtain your residencia.

_I have no opinion in what people should do, or not do,
all I know is that my Spanish friends asks, "Who asks how long you stay??" 
"You foreigners are far too honest lol"_

I think this last statement is really telling - and sadly I think the opposite is true - a good deal of foreigners are just not honest enough. I think the Spanish economy would be massively boosted and public services, schools etc drastically improved if people did things above board. I often laugh at many disgruntled Spaniards who complain about the corruption and fraud in national and local government, oblivious to their own disregard for the rules and happily playing the system and doings under the table - but so many British/Other European immigrants do exactly the same thing - but they also cover up their UK/home tax affairs as well as fiddling the figures in Spain. 

Call me naive and straight-laced but if we all played by the rules we'd each end up paying a little bit less (because we're not paying for non-payers), we would receive better public services, the impact of immigration would be better understood, the town halls would have a more accurate number of how many people actually live here and could better provision. Until more people embrace Spain for all its quirks and perks and deal with the bureaucracy rather than hiding from it, things won't improve as fast as they need to to get Spain back on track economically. 

I just imagine the furore back in the UK from the Daily Mail brigade (for non-Brits - a popular conservative tabloid newspaper and its readers) if the exact same behaviours I observe or hear about from some British immigrants in Spain were replicated in Britain by non-British people - because that would be 'outrageous' as I'm sure it would be in many other Western European countries at the moment ...... I see little difference between a recently arrived Polish immigrant (I say Polish - they could be from anywhere) in the UK wishing to claim unemployment benefit for 2 years, and UK immigrant in Spain - living most of their time in Spain - not paying their taxes in Spain. Obviously that's a grossly over simplified example - but you get my point I hope.

Obviously there are a lot of law-abiding, tax-paying immigrants resident in Spain - but sometimes I begin to despair at the intentions of some freeloading individuals. If you want to live in Spain, anyone is welcome to come over for a few weeks/whatever to decide if it's where they wish to move to. But coming over here and 'sitting on the fence' for 2-3 or more years before returning home, without paying your dues to Spain - for me at least, is ethically wrong.

I get that rules on NIE, Foreigners list/'Residencia', 183 day tax-residency rule, Dual Tax Agreements, Healthcare provision etc can be confusing. But it's all of our responsibility to get informed and/or seek the right advice- not wait for the whole of Europe to de-bureaucratise.

Rant over. lane:


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Horlics said:


> It's 30.


It is now 35 years payments for anyone under the new pension system, If you retire on the 5th of April this year you are on the old system & require 30 years & you'll get whatever the basic amount is now. If you retire on the 6th April you'll need 35 years & might get the new 155pounds but very doubtful as Lynn said , anyone who has been contracted out will not get the full amount as they are assumed to have a private pension based on those years contracted out.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

samthemainman said:


> Call me naive and straight-laced but if we all played by the rules we'd each end up paying a little bit less (because we're not paying for non-payers), we would receive better public services, the impact of immigration would be better understood, the town halls would have a more accurate number of how many people actually live here and could better provision. Until more people embrace Spain for all its quirks and perks and deal with the bureaucracy rather than hiding from it, things won't improve as fast as they need to to get Spain back on track economically.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are naieve. Everyone paying everything would still leave no money or improved services as the vast majority of 'politicians ' A) wouldn't even realise that the situation had changed & B) would still waste the money & have a shortfall.



& no there is a complete disparity in your example . One is basically paying tax in their home country whilst living here as a 'long-term tourist & paying using foreign income for all that that entails. I.e. is bringing in money to the country . Agreed that they are using some resources that they are not paying for but then so are the millions of other tourists ? 
The second is a scrounger who wants to contribute nothing & expects to be given handouts.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

C.G. said:


> Hi,
> I have been living in Spain for 3 years, and it seems you know how long you can stay etc.
> I am Norwegian, go back and forth to Norway.
> I rent an apt for a year at the time in Spain, but it does not necessary mean I`m there all year.
> ...



A few comments about what happened to you.


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## samthemainman (Aug 15, 2012)

gus-lopez said:


> You are naieve. Everyone paying everything would still leave no money or improved services as the vast majority of 'politicians ' A) wouldn't even realise that the situation had changed & B) would still waste the money & have a shortfall. & no there is a complete disparity in your example . One is basically paying tax in their home country whilst living here as a 'long-term tourist & paying using foreign income for all that that entails. I.e. is bringing in money to the country . Agreed that they are using some resources that they are not paying for but then so are the millions of other tourists ? The second is a scrounger who wants to contribute nothing & expects to be given handouts.


Interesting point of view - your points A and B are quite typical of many people I've met in Spain. 'The politicians and outlook will never change here, they're all just after my cash'. Things will never improve unless we address tax dodging - mainly from big corporations, but individuals too - and get a new government in to address it. But that's another story.

Secondly - we're not talking about 'long term tourists' (not sure what you mean by that) - they're either living here or on holiday. Someone living here for 11 months and claiming tax reasons in another country because it suits them - resident in every sense apart from having the official paper work - is a totally different situation to someone on a three month break touring Spain. 

Interesting that your view of someone claiming job seekers allowance for a view weeks is so wildly different - but I think it's commonly held.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

gus-lopez said:


> It is now 35 years payments for anyone under the new pension system, If you retire on the 5th of April this year you are on the old system & require 30 years & you'll get whatever the basic amount is now. If you retire on the 6th April you'll need 35 years & might get the new 155pounds but very doubtful as Lynn said , anyone who has been contracted out will not get the full amount as they are assumed to have a private pension based on those years contracted out.


Hi gus,

The reason I am saying it is 30 is because I have just gone through the process of checking pension entitlements for me and my wife. We're both well short of the 40+ years that some people put in because we have spent several years living and working outside of the UK. I therefore needed to check. Another factor is that my wife was self employed in the UK for several years during which she made voluntary contributions which she continued with after leaving the UK. Continuing is something she shouldn't have done as she wasn't supposed to be paying into that particular "schedule" (as they call it), while not self employed in the UK. They insisted on a refund which I immediately gave them back in order that she qualify, and how much I repaid was based on their advice about hitting the 30 years figure.

What the pensions people do is send a statement. Anybody can request one and it arrives about a week or so after being requested. In our case it stated that we both have just over 30 years of contributions and therefore qualify for the new state pension at the basic rate plus a few quid. It says that it's the New State Pension as we will both be claiming on or after the 6th April 2016.

It went on to say that we can make voluntary contributions or might find that if employed in the future then payments will commence again. A full year of contributions is worth a further 1/30th of the full basic State Pension, which is about 3.77 a week in today's terms.

I think the 35 years you are referring to comes from here, a quote from the Gov's site: "You’ll need 35 qualifying years to get the new full State Pension if you don’t have a National Insurance record before 6 April 2016." Note, this is talking about the full state pension not the basic state pension. If you retire later this year with only 30 years of contributions you will get the basic state pension, you don't need 35.


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## C.G. (Jan 6, 2016)

snikpoh said:


> A few comments about what happened to you.



Hello, and thank you for your comment! I learned something
Your comment kind of summon up my time in Spain, a learning process every day, as mixed messages, different opinions of what is real or not is served as a daily dish for breakfast! )
Mix messages, even from authorities , banks, "layers" , inmobiliaria and Movistar!
If you are right, you just made my life a bit easier)
Have a great day!


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