# Job markets - Australia Vs US?



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

Hi All,

I was just wondering if Australia or the US is a better market for jobs keeping in mind 1) Availability of jobs and ease in search of a job AND 2) Salaries.

I have searched on Google and read various websites - most tend to say that Australia is a better market for low-wage jobs (i.e. 'casual' jobs likes retail, restaurant, etc) since minimum wages are high but for white-collar professional jobs (i.e. IT, engineering, finance, marketing, etc.), the US is a much better market with way better opportunities considering above two factors. What are your views on it?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## Danav_Singh (Sep 1, 2014)

kettlerope said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I was just wondering if Australia or the US is a better market for jobs keeping in mind 1) Availability of jobs and ease in search of a job AND 2) Salaries.
> 
> ...


Comparing job market of Oz and US is just like comparing ant and elephant and more like that if you are talking about IT and engineering .

Yes, minimum wage is high in oz but a burger costs $5 in US and $10-$11 in OZ so the cost of living evens out the wage rate.
As the minimum wage is high in oz so the hiring volume is very less compared to US.

On top of that $1 US = .70 OZ dollar so that means even if wage rate is 30% higher in OZ in PPP terms its exactly the same.


----------



## spark92 (Nov 8, 2010)

Depends on the occupation.

For software engineering I can definitely say USA offers better salary and more jobs. For instance if I compare Ruby (programming language ) jobs in Seattle vs entire Australia I get the below:

SEEK - Australia's no. 1 jobs, employment, career and recruitment site

133 jobs vs

Ruby Jobs in Seattle, WA. Seattle Ruby Jobs | Monster.com

891 jobs

Seattle has 650,000 people; Australia has 23M people. That gives you the idea.

For salaries I'd recommend you payscale for general positions; glassdoor for specific positions at specific companies.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

Danav_Singh said:


> Comparing job market of Oz and US is just like comparing ant and elephant and more like that if you are talking about IT and engineering .
> 
> Yes, minimum wage is high in oz but a burger costs $5 in US and $10-$11 in OZ so the cost of living evens out the wage rate.
> As the minimum wage is high in oz so the hiring volume is very less compared to US.
> ...


That's s true.. plus, unfortunately, high minimum wages help only those who are doing casual jobs. For professional jobs, US pays are much higher, on top of it - cheaper cost of living, slightly lower taxes and better currency conversion! US market seems to be way way better..


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

spark92 said:


> Depends on the occupation.
> 
> For software engineering I can definitely say USA offers better salary and more jobs. For instance if I compare Ruby (programming language ) jobs in Seattle vs entire Australia I get the below:
> 
> ...


I can imagine.. it's so true with most of the professional jobs. Australia seems to have quite less number of jobs, high amount of red taping for job search and lower salary, along with higher cost of living and worse forex conversion :-(. What could be the worse situation?


----------



## ag2015 (Jul 10, 2015)

As far as I can tell, it is true that Australia is a much worse job market than the US. I'd probably have to take a 50% cut in my salary in order to move to Australia. The flipsiide however is that the immigration situation in the US is pretty bad. I have been in this country for 7 years, applied for a green card in 2013 and I have no chance of getting it before 2019 (optimistically). Additionally, the unfairness of the whole system where people born in India wait up to a decade for a green card while others, born elsewhere get it within 2-3 years really gets to me. The uncertainty of living on a visa and the opportunity costs of having to pass up on career advance opportunities because of visa issues add up.

If you are considering moving either to the US or Australia, do consider the chances of permanent residency as a major factor, not just the money. After a while in a developed country, one gets used to a certain lifestyle and it becomes difficult to even consider going back to India. The stress of the precarious visa situation without PR is tremendous - especially as you start putting down roots, have a family, kids, buy property etc.

PS: Another point worth considering is that the situation in the US has a slight chance of improving. There are certain proposed rules that will make life a lot easier, if they are implemented. The expectation of the immigration lawyers association (AILA) is that these changes will take effect in Q1 2016, but as always in politics - it isn't done till it's done.


----------



## docsunny50 (May 24, 2015)

ag2015 said:


> As far as I can tell, it is true that Australia is a much worse job market than the US. I'd probably have to take a 50% cut in my salary in order to move to Australia. The flipsiide however is that the immigration situation in the US is pretty bad. I have been in this country for 7 years, applied for a green card in 2013 and I have no chance of getting it before 2019 (optimistically). Additionally, the unfairness of the whole system where people born in India wait up to a decade for a green card while others, born elsewhere get it within 2-3 years really gets to me. The uncertainty of living on a visa and the opportunity costs of having to pass up on career advance opportunities because of visa issues add up. If you are considering moving either to the US or Australia, do consider the chances of permanent residency as a major factor, not just the money. After a while in a developed country, one gets used to a certain lifestyle and it becomes difficult to even consider going back to India. The stress of the precarious visa situation without PR is tremendous - especially as you start putting down roots, have a family, kids, buy property etc.


I agree. Also, one needs to consider the social system and situation. This becomes importantly especially if you have children and health needs. The welfare and public health system in the US is dismal even for permanent residents forget temporary residents/aliens.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

ag2015 said:


> As far as I can tell, it is true that Australia is a much worse job market than the US. I'd probably have to take a 50% cut in my salary in order to move to Australia. The flipsiide however is that the immigration situation in the US is pretty bad. I have been in this country for 7 years, applied for a green card in 2013 and I have no chance of getting it before 2019 (optimistically). Additionally, the unfairness of the whole system where people born in India wait up to a decade for a green card while others, born elsewhere get it within 2-3 years really gets to me. The uncertainty of living on a visa and the opportunity costs of having to pass up on career advance opportunities because of visa issues add up.
> 
> If you are considering moving either to the US or Australia, do consider the chances of permanent residency as a major factor, not just the money. After a while in a developed country, one gets used to a certain lifestyle and it becomes difficult to even consider going back to India. The stress of the precarious visa situation without PR is tremendous - especially as you start putting down roots, have a family, kids, buy property etc.
> 
> PS: Another point worth considering is that the situation in the US has a slight chance of improving. There are certain proposed rules that will make life a lot easier, if they are implemented. The expectation of the immigration lawyers association (AILA) is that these changes will take effect in Q1 2016, but as always in politics - it isn't done till it's done.


Man!! 50% cut in salary and that too in a cheaper currency is insane. Are US salaries so much higher? And what are those proposed changes in the nutshell which can improve the situation of people on work visa (or those waiting for GC)?


----------



## Saisakahi (Jul 28, 2015)

50% pay cut .. I am in US currently and I did apply for PR in Australia considering the GC wait time being so high in US... Can some one tell me Wht is the average IT pay in Aus . I have 10 years of IT experience.I just want to calculate the saving aspect for a family of 3 . how much will be the monthly expense and how much will I save. Now I am worried if I will save enough as living expense are high


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

docsunny50 said:


> I agree. Also, one needs to consider the social system and situation. This becomes importantly especially if you have children and health needs. The welfare and public health system in the US is dismal even for permanent residents forget temporary residents/aliens.


Well, these benefits help but don't compensate the advantages the US offers in terms of the number of jobs available, ease in the job search, career progression and salaries. It's totally my belief though. Unemployment benefits in Australia start only after you have been on PR for two years and they aren't enough to even pay rent - forget about the complete survival. Medicare is free but it covers only the physician consultation and not that of the specialists. And you only need it a few times a year at max. Medicines aren't free nor are the visits to say dentists, gastroenterologists, dermatologists, neurologist, nephrologist, cardiologist, endocrinologists, and so on. Even ambulance and spectacles aren't free. All in all, there's only little that medicare has to offer even if it's free and only so much that you can avail.


----------



## gurudev (Jan 15, 2013)

kettlerope said:


> Well, these benefits help but don't compensate the advantages the US offers in terms of the number of jobs available, ease in the job search, career progression and salaries. It's totally my belief though. Unemployment benefits in Australia start only after you have been on PR for two years and they aren't enough to even pay rent - forget about the complete survival. Medicare is free but it covers only the physician consultation and not that of the specialists. And you only need it a few times a year at max. Medicines aren't free nor are the visits to say dentists, gastroenterologists, dermatologists, neurologist, nephrologist, cardiologist, endocrinologists, and so on. Even ambulance and spectacles aren't free. All in all, there's only little that medicare has to offer even if it's free and only so much that you can avail.


Why did you apply for the Australian PR in the first place? It is strange to ask these questions now after almost a year of your PR grant? Just curious...


----------



## ag2015 (Jul 10, 2015)

Are the salaries in the US that much higher - I can't really give you a general answer, but I'll tell you this: the average salary among my close friends is approximately $150,000 (USD). We all have American Master's degrees and about 5 years of experience.

The changes in immigration - briefly, there are three steps to getting a green card. After the 2nd step, there is a per country quota which causes people born in India to wait for 5-7 years before being able to complete the third step. The proposal is to allow people in this situation the right to freely work for any employer and enter the US freely. This will free the employers from the burden of spending money on renewing the visa and it will allow the foreign workers to easily switch jobs without having to worry about the green card. Also, as it stands right now, when you switch jobs the entire process needs to repeated while with the proposed rules, it won't have to be repeated anymore.


----------



## Saisakahi (Jul 28, 2015)

Guiding me out on the similar lines
I would love to know..
1) 50% less IT jobs in Auz compared to US. So how many months does it takes to get a job in Oz. I know the figure varies on several factora but I would have to plan to leave my job here in US and try in AuZ. 
2) Low salary compared to US. can some one let me know the average salary in Auz ? 
3) For a family of 3 what will be the average expensive per month. I wanted to calculate the savings and compare.
4) Whts the best part of settling in AuZ compared to US. Leave visa and medical benefits apart.


----------



## Danav_Singh (Sep 1, 2014)

Saisakahi said:


> Guiding me out on the similar lines
> I would love to know..
> 1) 50% less IT jobs in Auz compared to US. So how many months does it takes to get a job in Oz. I know the figure varies on several factora but I would have to plan to leave my job here in US and try in AuZ.
> 2) Low salary compared to US. can some one let me know the average salary in Auz ?
> ...


1) 50% less IT jobs in OZ than US??? I dont think if you can compare IT jobs in US and OZ. Its not even 50%. US drive the IT sector around the world and OZ just caters for its domestic IT demand which is pretty small compared to US domestic market and in that too outsourcing is preferred. 

2) National Average salary is around $49k but median salary is around $72k. For a family of 3 you atleast need $90k to maintain average life style.

3) if you are in IT you just have two options. Melbourne and sydney. I have no idea why people move to other cities and look for IT jobs as there are just handful of IT jobs in other cities.

I had a chat with IT recruiter recently and he told me nowadays on an average they are receiving more than 130 applicants for 1 developer role advertised.
This is the level of competition in the market for IT jobs.


----------



## Saisakahi (Jul 28, 2015)

Thanks for the reply.. I m bit confused with average salary being 72k and to meet expense of 3 we need 90k . So does tht mean husband and wife both need to work to meet the end.. 
For 1 job if there are 130 applicant .Then I would consider worst job market even compared to india.I m not sure if I m understanding it correct.. Thanks


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

gurudev said:


> Why did you apply for the Australian PR in the first place? It is strange to ask these questions now after almost a year of your PR grant? Just curious...


Gurudev,

I appreciate your curiosity. Below are the answers:

1. Lately I have been too busy with job so couldn't post it earlier though I wanted to post it for a long time. I have read it on various forums and a few of my friends chose to go back to the US despite having PR. There are a few who have moved to Australia and aren't happy with job market there, so they are trying hard to move to the US. Most of them are in IT/ Business fields.

2. All of them (and also I) applied for PR to not miss the boat to be honest. However, now we all tend to slowly realize that we weren't after that boat at the first place. Instead, we were always after a cruise steamer. . 

3. Reasons for people being dissatisfied are already mentioned by many on this thread. For a professional with 5+ years of experience, India and the US have much more to offer in terms of growth, salary and number of opportunities. 

Hope I have been able to address your curiosity.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

Saisakahi said:


> Thanks for the reply.. I m bit confused with average salary being 72k and to meet expense of 3 we need 90k . So does tht mean husband and wife both need to work to meet the end..
> For 1 job if there are 130 applicant .Then I would consider worst job market even compared to india.I m not sure if I m understanding it correct.. Thanks


Number 130 might be for IT job market but for other professions it's much worse. This is rather a modest comment and no exaggeration at all.


----------



## ag2015 (Jul 10, 2015)

Probably not the right thread for this, but can someone who works in India comment on what the situation work situation is like? Salaries, advancement opportunities etc. ?

Is there anyone in the US planning to move to Australia? Or are people just getting the PR as a backup?


----------



## docsunny50 (May 24, 2015)

kettlerope said:


> Well, these benefits help but don't compensate the advantages the US offers in terms of the number of jobs available, ease in the job search, career progression and salaries. It's totally my belief though. Unemployment benefits in Australia start only after you have been on PR for two years and they aren't enough to even pay rent - forget about the complete survival. Medicare is free but it covers only the physician consultation and not that of the specialists. And you only need it a few times a year at max. Medicines aren't free nor are the visits to say dentists, gastroenterologists, dermatologists, neurologist, nephrologist, cardiologist, endocrinologists, and so on. Even ambulance and spectacles aren't free. All in all, there's only little that medicare has to offer even if it's free and only so much that you can avail.


Hi kettlerope, your information is so misleading and inaccurate. It makes me wonder if you are in Australia or have permanent residency? I am a Doctor who has worked in the US and now here in Australia. All public hospital services are free unless you chose to go private. If you choose to see a specialist in private; Medicare covers 70 percent with you needing to pay the gap. For medications, the Government subsidises the ones on PBS; so in effect you pay a small portion of the true value. For GP visits, you either get bulk billed ( no fee to be paid) or only the gap ( which is peanuts compared to the copayment in the US). I am not sure why you types even bother to come to Australia without researching the market; a waste of your time and your families. If the country does not suit you, please feel free to leave instead of whinging and misleading. I am sure the gun culture and the 15 year wait for Green Card in the US trumps a certain welfare system in OZ.


----------



## ag2015 (Jul 10, 2015)

While I appreciate the info you provide, I think it would be best to avoid ad hominem attacks and only discuss the issue at hand.


----------



## kk1234 (Sep 26, 2015)

I've lived and worked in the U.S. for a few years, then worked in india for a few years and have recently received a PR of Aus. I've had exp and research for all 3 countries. Just that I am from the manufacturing industry and not IT. I can point out a few differences between these 3 places in general:

India is the best market when it comes to "getting a job". It's the easiest to get one. Next comes US and then Aus. The number of jobs in U.S. is much more since it's a MUCH larger economy but so is the population as compared to Aus. But the every length and breadth of the country and economy is so huge that opportunities are plenty in the U.S. Salaries are the best in U.S. as well considering standard of living, costs and lifestyle. Aus salaries are comparatively higher than that in the U.S. but so is the cost of living. India off course comes second in terms of salaries but these days even in india salaries are very good so saving can be more depending on where you work. 

Most Asians, desis (Indians) prefer the U.S. over Aus. But most Europeans and many Americans too prefer Aus over U.S. or Europe mainly for only one reason: LIFESTYLE! Money cannot buy you certain things in the U.S. and Europe that you can have in Australia. Australian culture is much more laid back with a better work-life balance as compared to US and Europe. Healthcare is off course cheaper. Life is more peaceful in general. Better beaches, better climate, cleaner air, less corruption etc. These are things which Americans and Europeans dig for more than Asians or Indians. Also if you check worlds best countries to live in or the best cities in the world to live in on Wikipedia or Google, you will find Australia as a country as well as Australian cities ranked way higher than the U.S.

So my conclusion is if you want to make more money or want better job opportunities then U.S. would be the place. If you want a better lifestyle then Aus would be better than US or Europe.

As far as PR is concerned: If you have a good job in the U.S. and are just 3-4 years away from a green card then don't come to Aus. Job is more important than lifestyle is my personal take because lifestyle only matters if you have a job or income in the first place. However if you have an almost equal job at both places US and Aus then it would be good to choose Aus over US if lifestyle matters to you more.


----------



## gurudev (Jan 15, 2013)

kettlerope said:


> Gurudev,
> 
> I appreciate your curiosity. Below are the answers:
> 
> ...


Friend,

If you don't mind, honestly yours seems to be a very casual approach - maybe you're blessed with abundant time and resources which many are not.

You are free to make your choices but I personally know of more than 2 dozen of folks who are in IT (ranging from 3-10 years experience) and are doing very well in Oz. They're pretty satisfied with the Australian culture, lifestyle, salary and opportunities. 

Yes, agree US is the hub of IT jobs but there are several folks on this forum who spent good 7-8 years on H1B with green card in waiting and had to pack their bags back to India as the company refused to extend their visa and they were not able to land with a new job in the nick of time. 

Besides, free and quality education (Oz is ranked above US in secondary education per PISA ratings), excellent Medicare facilities as already well explained by our doctor friend above and some best cities to live in the world makes Oz the clear winner. Mind you when you have kids you won't have to live in the constant fear of a maniac running around with a gun on a killing spree (sorry state of affairs in US). 

Eligibility for Oz citizenship is 4 years whereas for a green card the wait is endless with the sword of Damocles (job cut and next job hunt before they send you packing) hanging on your head all the time - the list may go on. Oz has lesser jobs does not mean you will remain jobless. With the right attitude and skill set any one can make it 

Long story short, it is an individual choice and my preference is Oz and I ensured that I made the right decision by weighing the pros and cons of Oz Vs. US and took full responsibility for my decision instead of regretting it later on.

All the best!!!

- Guru


----------



## spark92 (Nov 8, 2010)

docsunny50 said:


> I agree. Also, one needs to consider the social system and situation. This becomes importantly especially if you have children and health needs. The welfare and public health system in the US is dismal even for permanent residents forget temporary residents/aliens.


Any halfway decent company in the US pays for your private health insurance.

You can get a salary report on payscale. In Australia only 3% of the workplaces offer private health insurance for Software Engineering jobs.

I was not born in India, If I had the option of having H1B visa right now I'd leave Australia within a heartbeat. Unfortunately last two years it's pretty hard to get H1B visa.


----------



## spark92 (Nov 8, 2010)

gurudev said:


> Friend,
> 
> If you don't mind, honestly yours seems to be a very casual approach - maybe you're blessed with abundant time and resources which many are not.
> 
> ...


I disagree with education.

In Australia society's and governments expectation from middle class families are that you need to send your kid to private schools. Even low-mid class families send their kids to private schools. I know a family whose annual income before tax is around 100-120k, paying their mortgage and spending $20k+ on their 2 kids schooling per year.

Also Australia has high school elitism which ends once you start studying at university. For instance this person thinks that he/she deserves to be invited to Obama's speech at a university in Australia because of prior education at private high school (college):
https://www.change.org/p/the-university-of-queensland-admit-that-you-done-****ed-up-the-obama-speech


----------



## ozbound12 (Mar 23, 2012)

spark92 said:


> I disagree with education. In Australia society's and governments expectation from middle class families are that you need to send your kid to private schools. Even low-mid class families send their kids to private schools. I know a family whose annual income before tax is around 100-120k, paying their mortgage and spending $20k+ on their 2 kids schooling per year. Also Australia has high school elitism which ends once you start studying at university. For instance this person thinks that he/she deserves to be invited to Obama's speech at a university in Australia because of prior education at private high school (college): https://www.change.org/p/the-university-of-queensland-admit-that-you-done-****ed-up-the-obama-speech



Guess you haven't spent much time in the American public school system. In NJ where I'm from you either spend a lot of money buying a house in a good school district and pay enormous property tax bills or send your kids to private schools. There are public schools in NJ that make even the worst Australian public school look like a country club.

And BTW NJ has the highest household incomes of any state in the US.


----------



## gurudev (Jan 15, 2013)

spark92 said:


> Any halfway decent company in the US pays for your private health insurance.
> 
> You can get a salary report on payscale. In Australia only 3% of the workplaces offer private health insurance for Software Engineering jobs.
> 
> I was not born in India, If I had the option of having H1B visa right now I'd leave Australia within a heartbeat. Unfortunately last two years it's pretty hard to get H1B visa.





> I disagree with education.
> 
> In Australia society's and governments expectation from middle class families are that you need to send your kid to private schools. Even low-mid class families send their kids to private schools. I know a family whose annual income before tax is around 100-120k, paying their mortgage and spending $20k+ on their 2 kids schooling per year.
> 
> ...


Mate, as I said anyone is free to make his/her choices. That is entirely your perspective and maybe you are in that stage of your life where you can risk the very unpleasant situation of losing your H1B or green card status (god forbid). 

I had both the options of US and Oz and to me with my 2 kids and wife, Oz seems to be a better bet. US employers might be providing you the private insurance cover but in Oz it's provided by the State and not tied to a particular employer. 

As far as the Oz education system is concerned, all I'm bothered about is a quality and free education for my kids. I have friends who have kids and vouch for the Oz public school education system . But of course it is easy to find fault in any thing under the sun.


----------



## Danav_Singh (Sep 1, 2014)

gurudev said:


> Mate, as I said anyone is free to make his/her choices. That is entirely your perspective and maybe you are in that stage of your life where you can risk the very unpleasant situation of losing your H1B or green card status (god forbid).
> 
> I had both the options of US and Oz and to me with my 2 kids and wife, Oz seems to be a better bet. US employers might be providing you the private insurance cover but in Oz it's provided by the State and not tied to a particular employer.
> 
> As far as the Oz education system is concerned, all I'm bothered about is a quality and free education for my kids. I have friends who have kids and vouch for the Oz public school education system . But of course it is easy to find fault in any thing under the sun.


Medicare by govt is just a bad joke in australia. There is a waiting time for even severe diseases. One of my friend had kidney infection and he was in unbearable pain and hospital put him on pain killers and gave him date of operation after 2 months and eventually they removed one of his kidney.

Most of the people in oz have private medical insurance and that is enough to explain how good is Oz so called "free" medicare.


----------



## gurudev (Jan 15, 2013)

Danav_Singh said:


> Medicare by govt is just a bad joke in australia. There is a waiting time for even severe diseases. One of my friend had kidney infection and he was in unbearable pain and hospital put him on pain killers and gave him date of operation after 2 months and eventually they removed one of his kidney.
> 
> Most of the people in oz have private medical insurance and that is enough to explain how good is Oz so called "free" medicare.


Really sorry to hear about your friend. No one should ever have to go through such an ordeal.

I was told that a private insurance cover costing something like $250-$300 p.m., in addition to the State offered medicare is good enough to cover for these waiting times. Is that true? Someone in Oz currently can comment on that.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

docsunny50 said:


> Hi kettlerope, your information is so misleading and inaccurate. It makes me wonder if you are in Australia or have permanent residency? I am a Doctor who has worked in the US and now here in Australia. All public hospital services are free unless you chose to go private. If you choose to see a specialist in private; Medicare covers 70 percent with you needing to pay the gap. For medications, the Government subsidises the ones on PBS; so in effect you pay a small portion of the true value. For GP visits, you either get bulk billed ( no fee to be paid) or only the gap ( which is peanuts compared to the copayment in the US). I am not sure why you types even bother to come to Australia without researching the market; a waste of your time and your families. If the country does not suit you, please feel free to leave instead of whinging and misleading. I am sure the gun culture and the 15 year wait for Green Card in the US trumps a certain welfare system in OZ.


Hi Sunny,

I am not a doc for sure and I hardly lived for a couple of months there. However, I have my extended family living there and I can confirm the following:

1. Medicines are very expensive (even over the counter ones). Govt helps you only when your medicine cost is $37 or above and that too for some medicines only. So, it means that every time you buy medicines, you end up paying up to $37 from your pocket. This isn't affordable by any standards. Let me give you a simple example - generic cold and flu OTC medicine (like a generic version of D'Cold in India) is at least $14 a strip. Branded ones are even more expensive. Prescription medicines are way more expensive. 

2. If you want to visit a specialist doc or need to get some minor operation done under medicare, there's an extremely long waiting queue. There's no direct access to specialists available unless you have a private insurance or you are willing to shell out hefty fees (min. $150 a visit) from your pocket. Bulk billing hardly helps in this case. Only utmost emergency illnesses are attended promptly (within 12-15 hrs after you reach emergency room) but for everything else there's a queue which goes for months or even years in many cases. Of course, I am not referring to normal GP visits which are of hardly any use when you have a specific need which GP can't handle. GPs are helpless in many cases. My friend had to do a small tissue operation of a benign nature and his waiting time was 22 months. I will leave the rest to your understanding. 

Free medicare is a joke and the whole system is very inefficient financially as well as operationally. I would rather have a private insurance than pay my hard earned money in taxes which fuels this system. You are a doctor, mate! You should have been able to notice these issues in the system far before people like me did. You are still praising the system despite knowing all this!?? And 8-9 years of wait time for GC in the US is definitely worth much more than what Australia has to offer in terms of job opportunities, salaries, career growth and so-called such 'social' benefits.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

kk1234 said:


> Job is more important than lifestyle is my personal take because lifestyle only matters if you have a job or income in the first place.


You nailed it. What to do with lifestyle if your counterparts in the US are earning much more than you and having much faster career growth? And again, getting a professional, white-collar job itself is a struggle in Australia - leave aside career and lifestyle, man! What lifestyle are we talking about when one can't even find an entry level job in his field in 6 months? And for the same amount of money, the US has more luxuries to offer due to its lower cost of living and better access to technology and goods. Any day.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

gurudev said:


> Friend,
> 
> If you don't mind, honestly yours seems to be a very casual approach - maybe you're blessed with abundant time and resources which many are not.
> 
> ...


Gurudev,

I highly appreciate your reply and please don't consider my reply as an argument, but basis my experience, I can confidently say the following:

1. US GC wait period is long - this statement doesn't make Australia a better job market in terms of number of jobs, career growth and salaries. There's no connection between the two.

2. If your friends are happy with their jobs in Australia, doesn't make it any better place than the US in terms of number of jobs, career growth and salaries. There's no connection between the two. If I may say so, there are millions of people extremely happy with their jobs in India or even in China.. does it make them a better place than other countries? We are doing a comparative analysis here. 

3. I am not sure if you are aware of standards of education systems across the globe or not, but Australia has much easier entrance exams for its graduation and master courses than the US. SAT, GRE and GMAT (which the US colleges follow) are of much higher standards than the Aus exams. JEE of India or exams of Singapore or South Korea are of much higher standards than even the American exams but we aren't comparing that at the moment. In fact, Australian unis are the least preferred for quality education among the developed countries. Even 40th ranked uni in the US in any field will be far better than top uni of Australia in that field. You don't need to even do research to prove this point. This explanation shows the quality of education. If their school education system was of such a high standard, their tertiary education standard wouldn't have been so bad. IIT engineer (or even NIT engineer) is far far better than that of the top engg school in Aus. You can't say it for the US ever though. 

4. I agree with you when it comes to GC wait time and hence PR proves to be a good choice. But the same liberty and flexibility in immigration system kills you later when you see so many 'skilled immigrants' of very low standards (leave aside English skills) sailing in the same nice boat as you and me! I would rather go to a country which is more selective when it comes to quality of people it allow to enter its shores. I have travelled to the US for work and you won't find as many 'immigrants' with a low IQ and sub-standard education in the US as you would in Aus. While skilled immigration system is nice since we all got visa through it, I don't consider it a competitive system at all. You compare the employees of the US companies or Masters students in the US unis with their Aussie counterparts and you will know what I mean. 

As you said, eventually it's an individual choice and one is always responsible for his own decision. I tend to analyse a real picture of the country rather than imagining a rosy picture and then regret later on.


----------



## MarissaAnna (Sep 27, 2014)

Saisakahi said:


> Thanks for the reply.. I m bit confused with average salary being 72k and to meet expense of 3 we need 90k . So does tht mean husband and wife both need to work to meet the end..
> 
> 
> Yes, it is the normal situation here that both partners work. Generally women return to work about 6 to 12 months after having a baby. Often one partner may work part-time and it is increasingly common for that to be the man. Women now have a higher level of education on average and often earn more than the men.


----------



## gurudev (Jan 15, 2013)

kettlerope said:


> Gurudev,
> 
> I highly appreciate your reply and please don't consider my reply as an argument, but basis my experience, I can confidently say the following:
> 
> ...


No worries mate. We're free to have an open discussion to educate each other 

1. The connection is there - maybe you missed the story of a guy who got kicked out of US shores despite spending good 8 years in US with an H1B and green card in waiting. A PR is something in your hand whereas a GC is something being dangled as a carrot which seems ever elusive.

2. Well for your point 2 above, let me quote what you had written: 



> I have read it on various forums and a few of my friends chose to go back to the US despite having PR. There are a few who have moved to Australia and aren't happy with job market there, so they are trying hard to move to the US. Most of them are in IT/ Business fields


It seems you are contradicting yourself. Am I right?

3. I talked of secondary education and NOT tertiary and I know US is far ahead in terms of tertiary education. So we're comparing apples with oranges here.

4. I'm not sure of sub-standard people getting access to Oz now. Yes it was true (especially from India) a few years back and many people complained about that when immigration rules were less stringent. But from the last couple of years, Oz has tightened up a bit here.


----------



## MarissaAnna (Sep 27, 2014)

kettlerope,
1. In terms of your criticisms of Medicare, are you aware of the Medicare Safety net which limits the annual expenditure that need be spent on medication. After a certain amount, it is either free or very cheap. I spend a lot of time in the emergency department with my elderly mother, who has dementia and constant falls. She has never had to wait many hours, The triage system is effective and fair. Mistakes do happen as they do anywhere.
2. I am curious about your assessment of the US immigration system. They have a huge number of undocumented immigrants from Latin America, who are generally poorly educated. You seem to be only in touch with the professional segement. Have you spent much time in the slums over there?
3. I imagine that it is true that the US offers better opportunities for certain segments. Australia has always been regarded as a country which offers much to "workers" ie people of a working class background.
4. You seem to be oriented towards the ideals of the elite, and that is your right. But many people do not have a choice between the two countries. You seem to have a strong dislike of this country, from what I have seen from other posts. I trust that wherever you now live is giving you happiness.


----------



## spark92 (Nov 8, 2010)

ozbound12 said:


> Guess you haven't spent much time in the American public school system. In NJ where I'm from you either spend a lot of money buying a house in a good school district and pay enormous property tax bills or send your kids to private schools. There are public schools in NJ that make even the worst Australian public school look like a country club.
> 
> And BTW NJ has the highest household incomes of any state in the US.


Not been to USA. But moving to an expensive place doesn't sound unfamiliar. For Brisbane city, there is an OP ranking the lower the better:
OP/IBD School Ranking - 2014

Apart from Brisbane State High; all of the top 15 are from private high schools.

For Brisbane State High, you need to live in South Brisbane area. Let's have a look at the cheapest 3 bedroom flat:
25/11 Manning Street South Brisbane Qld 4101 - House for Sale #120428697 - realestate.com.au
sold for $570k+
or if you want to rent something similar its $550/w:
3/36 Water Street South Brisbane Qld 4101 - Apartment for Rent #416681661 - realestate.com.au


Other case is obviously private high schools let's have a look at few of the good ones:
https://www.brisbanegrammar.com/Enrolments/Fees/Pages/default.aspx
http://www.somerset.qld.edu.au/work...files/schedule-of-fees-2015-5473ff292a65e.pdf
http://www.clayfield.qld.edu.au/publications/2015ScheduleofFeesforAustralianStudents.pdf


----------



## spark92 (Nov 8, 2010)

gurudev said:


> Mate, as I said anyone is free to make his/her choices. That is entirely your perspective and maybe you are in that stage of your life where you can risk the very unpleasant situation of losing your H1B or green card status (god forbid).
> 
> I had both the options of US and Oz and to me with my 2 kids and wife, Oz seems to be a better bet. US employers might be providing you the private insurance cover but in Oz it's provided by the State and not tied to a particular employer.
> 
> As far as the Oz education system is concerned, all I'm bothered about is a quality and free education for my kids. I have friends who have kids and vouch for the Oz public school education system . But of course it is easy to find fault in any thing under the sun.


Sorry but you haven't been to Australia yet. I have studied university here in Australia, I also have Australian colleagues and an Australian partner.

Obviously public schools in Australia would be better than public schools in India or Turkey. When I was in my primary school my classroom had 55 students, later it was decreased to 45. When I tell this to Australians they find it shocking. However the point that I am trying to say is, when you come to Australia your standards become Australian standards, they are no longer your Indian standard vs Australian standard. (It's pretty much for everything; just like you cannot compare salaries)



I also agree with kettierope. Here is an article from the founder of Freelancer.com (which is an Australian company)
MATT BARRIE: Australia's brain drain is 'now in full force', and nobody wants to come here | Business Insider

Let me also tell all of you a story that I've had.

An American company that pays at least 1.2M Rupees to their Indian Software Engineers in India, has offered me a position paying AU$55k, when I wanted more salary because their HQ city is only 10% more expensive and same level Software Engineer in their HQ earns US$95k (which is AU$133k); their response was take it or leave it, because they have lots and lots of people to hire in Australia as there aren't that many jobs.


Again honestly, at the end of the day everything depends on the personal values. For some all it might matter would be having a permanent way to stay; for others it could be career oriented and they might not even care (ie jobs in UAE; where you cannot become an UAE citizen; however you stay there due to career opportunities). I am a non Indian/Chinese (aka RoW for US immigration system) person who is in his 20s, if I had H1B and could apply to EB2 I'd get it in few years; so that's not an issue for me, which seems to be the MAIN reason why Indians are choosing Australia over USA. (which is again fair enough, at the end what's the point of working in a country for so long and buying a property etc. if you are wanting to settle down)


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

MarissaAnna said:


> kettlerope,
> 1. In terms of your criticisms of Medicare, are you aware of the Medicare Safety net which limits the annual expenditure that need be spent on medication. After a certain amount, it is either free or very cheap. I spend a lot of time in the emergency department with my elderly mother, who has dementia and constant falls. She has never had to wait many hours, The triage system is effective and fair. Mistakes do happen as they do anywhere.
> 2. I am curious about your assessment of the US immigration system. They have a huge number of undocumented immigrants from Latin America, who are generally poorly educated. You seem to be only in touch with the professional segement. Have you spent much time in the slums over there?
> 3. I imagine that it is true that the US offers better opportunities for certain segments. Australia has always been regarded as a country which offers much to "workers" ie people of a working class background.
> 4. You seem to be oriented towards the ideals of the elite, and that is your right. But many people do not have a choice between the two countries. You seem to have a strong dislike of this country, from what I have seen from other posts. I trust that wherever you now live is giving you happiness.


1. So, do you think that people who are in months long waiting queue are lying about it? 

2. You are right about Aus being a great country for people with worker class background. I have high respect for the same. However, most of the people on this forum are from a professional background (IT, business, etc.) so we are discussing the topic in that context. I didn't say elite or otherwise. I agree 100% that for low skilled jobs, it's a much better place to be in compared to the US, but so isn't true at all for high skilled jobs and ambitious people. I am being very clear about it.

All in all, what you are saying is not different from what I have been saying. We are on the same page.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

gurudev said:


> No worries mate. We're free to have an open discussion to educate each other
> 
> 1. The connection is there - maybe you missed the story of a guy who got kicked out of US shores despite spending good 8 years in US with an H1B and green card in waiting. A PR is something in your hand whereas a GC is something being dangled as a carrot which seems ever elusive.
> 
> ...


Point # 2: I am saying it again - few friends being happy in one country doesn't make that country good for career growth and opportunities. That way, there're plenty of people happy in India and we are still exploring the better options. While my friends aren't happy particularly with career/ money perspective of life, I am not going just by their opinions and hence a need for the whole discussion here. 

Point # 4: Check the requirement of 489 visa or many other visas (literally anyone can get the visa with some paperwork - no big deal at all) or even student visa/ admission criteria for yourself and you will know the quality of people the country is trying to attract. Just to quote a small example - any decent uni in the US compulsorily requires, in addition to TOEFL, pretty decent SAT score for admission into Bachelors program and GRE/ GMAT score for Masters program. On the other hand, most Aus unis require just IELTS for both Bachelors and Masters programs. Now you know what we are talking about. I am not necessarily against Aus system though I would definitely prefer American system which ensures a very high quality at student and work visa level itself (and there's no direct immigration program), but I am trying to inform you about the differences - not sure if you were aware of these.

Thanks for your reply!


----------



## docsunny50 (May 24, 2015)

docsunny50 said:


> Hi kettlerope, your information is so misleading and inaccurate. It makes me wonder if you are in Australia or have permanent residency? I am a Doctor who has worked in the US and now here in Australia. All public hospital services are free unless you chose to go private. If you choose to see a specialist in private; Medicare covers 70 percent with you needing to pay the gap. For medications, the Government subsidises the ones on PBS; so in effect you pay a small portion of the true value. For GP visits, you either get bulk billed ( no fee to be paid) or only the gap ( which is peanuts compared to the copayment in the US). I am not sure why you types even bother to come to Australia without researching the market; a waste of your time and your families. If the country does not suit you, please feel free to leave instead of whinging and misleading. I am sure the gun culture and the 15 year wait for Green Card in the US trumps a certain welfare system in OZ.


 Sorry Kettlerope; reading my comment I was unduly harsh. However, I stand by the healthcare facts provided.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

docsunny50 said:


> Sorry Kettlerope; reading my comment I was unduly harsh. However, I stand by the healthcare facts provided.


No worries, mate.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

spark92 said:


> Sorry but you haven't been to Australia yet. I have studied university here in Australia, I also have Australian colleagues and an Australian partner.
> 
> Obviously public schools in Australia would be better than public schools in India or Turkey. When I was in my primary school my classroom had 55 students, later it was decreased to 45. When I tell this to Australians they find it shocking. However the point that I am trying to say is, when you come to Australia your standards become Australian standards, they are no longer your Indian standard vs Australian standard. (It's pretty much for everything; just like you cannot compare salaries)
> 
> ...


Your story is alarming. . Feeling sad about the situation. Wish you very good luck, mate.


----------



## dannyduke (Sep 19, 2015)

US immigration is tough but it is getting better under Obama terms, for Indians, it is 5-7 years wait if you are on EB2. Canada is also a good alternative for the US. Australia seems to be on verge of recession to me, which I hope it will not happen anytime soon.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

dannyduke said:


> US immigration is tough but it is getting better under Obama terms, for Indians, it is 5-7 years wait if you are on EB2. Canada is also a good alternative for the US. Australia seems to be on verge of recession to me, which I hope it will not happen anytime soon.


Well, even in the best of economic times, Australia didn't offer better job opportunities and higher salaries than the US anyway. So, it seems irrelevant.


----------



## docsunny50 (May 24, 2015)

Hi all, I am not replying to any specific comment but want to advise potential migrants to OZ from my experience. As discussed earlier I am a Doctor who has worked in hospitals in the US and a registered doctor here in OZ ( and before that trained in UK and NZ). I am also an Academic and health policy consultant, who probably knows much more about health services both in the US and OZ than any one who has commented before. My credentials doesn't mean I go onto the US forum and whinge about the appalling health system there. Neither will I comment on the tottering immigration system, gun culture and the very weak schooling system in the US because I am not in the US nor want to be the one to influence those who are going to the US. This is why I get upset when some comments, based on anecdotal or lack of in- depth understanding make sweeping statements about OZ in this forum. If you are interested in moving to Australia base your decision on these factors: straightforward immigration process, a top class public health system, a relatively good public school system, generally a secure and safe society, a Government that takes interest in families and individual, easy going lifestyle, easy entry into the property market (Non-Sydney), nearness to Asia. You may have noticed that I did not mention here big bucks and rocket speed career progression. Things move slow here and you need to demonstrate you have the skills and fit into the work culture, before you gain respect and rewards. Are there negatives here. Of course there are ( which country doesn't) but please don't project your failure in not having researched OZ or confusion about what is important in your life as a moronic comparison between two different countries.


----------



## ozbound12 (Mar 23, 2012)

spark92 said:


> Not been to USA. But moving to an expensive place doesn't sound unfamiliar. For Brisbane city, there is an OP ranking the lower the better:
> OP/IBD School Ranking - 2014
> 
> Apart from Brisbane State High; all of the top 15 are from private high schools.
> ...




So public schools in affluent areas and private schools with a lot of money tend to do better in rankings. This is not astonishing news and certainly not exclusive to the Australian experience.

What you fail to realise is that there are literally thousands of high schools in Australia and just because your local high school is not in the top 10 or 15 does not necessarily make it bad. I'm sure you probably did not attend the "top 10" high school in your own country. I know I didn't and it was still considered one of the top schools anyway. Who cares.


----------



## nextgoal (Dec 27, 2013)

kettlerope said:


> Gurudev,
> I have travelled to the US for work and you won't find as many 'immigrants' with a low IQ and sub-standard education in the US as you would in Aus.


Wow , really ? that sounds so rude and judgemental


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

docsunny50 said:


> Hi all, I am not replying to any specific comment but want to advise potential migrants to OZ from my experience. As discussed earlier I am a Doctor who has worked in hospitals in the US and a registered doctor here in OZ ( and before that trained in UK and NZ). I am also an Academic and health policy consultant, who probably knows much more about health services both in the US and OZ than any one who has commented before. My credentials doesn't mean I go onto the US forum and whinge about the appalling health system there. Neither will I comment on the tottering immigration system, gun culture and the very weak schooling system in the US because I am not in the US nor want to be the one to influence those who are going to the US. This is why I get upset when some comments, based on anecdotal or lack of in- depth understanding make sweeping statements about OZ in this forum. If you are interested in moving to Australia base your decision on these factors: straightforward immigration process, a top class public health system, a relatively good public school system, generally a secure and safe society, a Government that takes interest in families and individual, easy going lifestyle, easy entry into the property market (Non-Sydney), nearness to Asia. You may have noticed that I did not mention here big bucks and rocket speed career progression. Things move slow here and you need to demonstrate you have the skills and fit into the work culture, before you gain respect and rewards. Are there negatives here. Of course there are ( which country doesn't) but please don't project your failure in not having researched OZ or confusion about what is important in your life as a moronic comparison between two different countries.


I wish the immigration system of Aus was more selective to maintain the quality and standards of immigrants in line with say the US. Anyway, can you please explain "top class public health care" and "better public school system" a bit more in detail? I don't doubt your views and expertise at all - just want you to give more info about it so that we all can be better informed.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

nextgoal said:


> Wow , really ? that sounds so rude and judgemental


Facts sometimes sound rude. What can we do? Do you still have doubts over the fact that the US attracts the brightest of immigrants from across the globe??? Man, I can't help you if you see it as rude. There are so many such things about each country (including India) that sound rude when said. They still remain facts though. In one of my above posts, I have explained the criteria more in detail.


----------



## ozbound12 (Mar 23, 2012)

kettlerope said:


> As you said, eventually it's an individual choice and one is always responsible for his own decision. I tend to analyse a real picture of the country rather than imagining a rosy picture and then regret later on.


I'm not sure if that's true, it just sounds like you regret your decision to move to Australia and/or applying for a visa in the first place and are now trying to find other people who agree with you.


----------



## ag2015 (Jul 10, 2015)

docsunny50 said:


> Hi all, I am not replying to any specific comment but want to advise potential migrants to OZ from my experience. As discussed earlier I am a Doctor who has worked in hospitals in the US and a registered doctor here in OZ ( and before that trained in UK and NZ). I am also an Academic and health policy consultant, who probably knows much more about health services both in the US and OZ than any one who has commented before. My credentials doesn't mean I go onto the US forum and whinge about the appalling health system there. Neither will I comment on the tottering immigration system, gun culture and the very weak schooling system in the US because I am not in the US nor want to be the one to influence those who are going to the US. This is why I get upset when some comments, based on anecdotal or lack of in- depth understanding make sweeping statements about OZ in this forum. If you are interested in moving to Australia base your decision on these factors: straightforward immigration process, a top class public health system, a relatively good public school system, generally a secure and safe society, a Government that takes interest in families and individual, easy going lifestyle, easy entry into the property market (Non-Sydney), nearness to Asia. You may have noticed that I did not mention here big bucks and rocket speed career progression. Things move slow here and you need to demonstrate you have the skills and fit into the work culture, before you gain respect and rewards. Are there negatives here. Of course there are ( which country doesn't) but please don't project your failure in not having researched OZ or confusion about what is important in your life as a moronic comparison between two different countries.


I don't think a comparison between the two countries can completely be ruled out just because they are "too different". While the final decision about which is better for someone depends on ones priorities, ones situation etc., there is nothing wrong with a thread bringing out the different facts/perspectives. It doesn't mean that everyone will reach the same conclusion after going through the thread - only that everyone will make their own decision based on more information than they would have had without the thread.

Having lived in the US for the past 7 years, I can tell you however that your comments about the gun culture and the healthcare system here are a little exaggerated. Yes, there is a problem with easy access to guns but it doesn't mean that I am afraid for my life every time I step out of my apartment. I live in New York City, and I can assure you that I have walked home at all hours of night and never felt in the slightest threatened by anyone.

For healthcare, yes the system is not great for the people who cannot afford health insurance however, as someone pointed out in this thread, we are all professionals. Most companies offer excellent health coverage.

For instance, I have a $20 co pay for a doctors visit, $35 for urgent care centers and $100 for an ER visit. My share of the monthly health insurance premium is $2. My annual out of pocket maximum is $2000; insurance pays 80% before reaching this ceiling and 100% after.

Furthermore, with the the Affordable Healthcare Act (aka Obamacare), it is compulsory for any company with more than 50 employees to offer health insurance. So, as far as health care is concerned, I honestly haven't experienced any problems here.

PS: My reasons for applying for the Australian PR are the broken immigration system here and the lack of stability. This thread has been immensely useful in bringing up the facts about a weaker labor market in Australia and will be a useful data point when it comes to making a decision about whether to move to Australia or not. Regardless of my decision though, I will be happy to at least have the option.


----------



## nextgoal (Dec 27, 2013)

kettlerope said:


> I wish the immigration system of Aus was more selective to maintain the quality and standards of immigrants in line with say the US. Anyway, can you please explain "top class public health care" and "better public school system" a bit more in detail? I don't doubt your views and expertise at all - just want you to give more info about it so that we all can be better informed.


Hello Kettlerope ,

Could you please detail on what kind of quality and standards the US is using in selecting the immigrants ?

My experiences tell me that there are whole lot of fake experienced guys working in the US who had gone there on the pretext of doing masters or got their H1B on lottery luck


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

ozbound12 said:


> I'm not sure if that's true, it just sounds like you regret your decision to move to Australia and/or applying for a visa in the first place and are now trying to find other people who agree with you.


A part of what you said is right. I am quite keen to explore H1B option though it's not easy.


----------



## nextgoal (Dec 27, 2013)

kettlerope said:


> Facts sometimes sound rude. What can we do? Do you still have doubts over the fact that the US attracts the brightest of immigrants from across the globe??? Man, I can't help you if you see it as rude. There are so many such things about each country (including India) that sound rude when said. They still remain facts though. In one of my above posts, I have explained the criteria more in detail.


Unfortunately , that was not a fact sir . When you say it is a fact , you need to support it with concrete information like stats.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

nextgoal said:


> Unfortunately , that was not a fact sir . When you say it is a fact , you need to support it with concrete information like stats.


Do you need stats to prove that the US attracts the brightest immigrants from across the globe (of course in form of H1B and student visa holders as they don't have direct immigration program)??? Come on! 

For the criteria, please read the first post on this link:

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/au...lia/881146-job-markets-australis-vs-us-4.html


----------



## nextgoal (Dec 27, 2013)

kettlerope said:


> Do you need stats to prove that the US attracts the brightest immigrants from across the globe (of course in form of H1B and student visa holders as they don't have direct immigration program)??? Come on!
> 
> For the criteria, please read the first post on this link:
> 
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/au...lia/881146-job-markets-australis-vs-us-4.html


In the first post in this thread you said you have googled and found something . Are you by chance calling those as facts? Kudos dude , I think you should move to the US !


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

nextgoal said:


> In the first post in this thread you said you have googled and found something . Are you by chance calling those as facts? Kudos dude , I think you should move to the US !


What I have mentioned in the post is fact! If SAT, GRE, GMAT, IELTS etc aren't facts then are they illusions, mate?


----------



## ozbound12 (Mar 23, 2012)

kettlerope said:


> A part of what you said is right. I am quite keen to explore H1B option though it's not easy.


Sucks to be you I guess. I couldn't be happier with my decision. Hope you make it over there but remember, the grass is always greener.


----------



## spark92 (Nov 8, 2010)

kettlerope said:


> Facts sometimes sound rude. What can we do? Do you still have doubts over the fact that the US attracts the brightest of immigrants from across the globe??? Man, I can't help you if you see it as rude. There are so many such things about each country (including India) that sound rude when said. They still remain facts though. In one of my above posts, I have explained the criteria more in detail.


This is the problem tho, the Australian system isn't after talent. It's about money.

Even look at NZ, they have a points system where,
If you worked in the country you get a lot more points,
even if you have a job offer you get a lot more points.

Here it's all about, you have a job offer? Cool, get a 457 visa then be a slave for 2 years (so that it would be a win-lose for your employer and you). No job offer, but still got some experience in your own country that might not be relevant in our country? Cool then apply for PR, so that we can have some income and we don't care if you can get a job or not.

So literarily a new graduate with masters who is not from India or China:
1) Can either get H1B visa and then apply for EB2 immediately and get the GC within few years
2) Can get a job offer in Australia under 457 but due to not having 3 years of experience won't be eligible for 186 direct entry stream, so has to wait for 2.5 years to get PR.

So essentially US system cares about the current marketplace. If someone is highly educated and that's useful to country which is a living proof by that person's employer, then they are allowed to immigrate. In contrast to Australian system where everyone is allowed to as long as they can bring money in. This has become even more obvious when Abbott wanted to introduce $50k for citizenship programme (obviously it's a stupid idea for the government as, if they introduce that then they won't earn any money from int'l students) So the example above same person can get the permanent residency within the similar amount of time for both countries.

I'm going a bit off topic here but someone from North Korea (I'm just giving that as a behind the current trend country) might say that they have 20 years of experience administering Windows 95 computer. Therefore ACS approves their experience and voila that person can apply to Australia, even though the skill/experience that the applicant holds is not within the interest of Australia. I hope people can get what I mean by this example.

Anyway, I guess it's enough complaining about countries' other stuff like how to immigrate etc. because this isn't really the right thread. This is about jobs, not healthcare, not education, not immigration.


----------



## VenkatMurthy.2015 (Jun 22, 2015)

gurudev said:


> Friend,
> 
> If you don't mind, honestly yours seems to be a very casual approach - maybe you're blessed with abundant time and resources which many are not.
> 
> ...



Thanks a lot  ,after reading whole thread was little disappointed for choosing Aus .. but after your post gained the right attitude.


----------



## gurudev (Jan 15, 2013)

kettlerope said:


> Point # 2: I am saying it again - few friends being happy in one country doesn't make that country good for career growth and opportunities. That way, there're plenty of people happy in India and we are still exploring the better options. While my friends aren't happy particularly with career/ money perspective of life, I am not going just by their opinions and hence a need for the whole discussion here.
> 
> Point # 4: Check the requirement of 489 visa or many other visas (literally anyone can get the visa with some paperwork - no big deal at all) or even student visa/ admission criteria for yourself and you will know the quality of people the country is trying to attract. Just to quote a small example - any decent uni in the US compulsorily requires, in addition to TOEFL, pretty decent SAT score for admission into Bachelors program and GRE/ GMAT score for Masters program. On the other hand, most Aus unis require just IELTS for both Bachelors and Masters programs. Now you know what we are talking about. I am not necessarily against Aus system though I would definitely prefer American system which ensures a very high quality at student and work visa level itself (and there's no direct immigration program), but I am trying to inform you about the differences - not sure if you were aware of these.
> 
> Thanks for your reply!


Mate, for point # 2 above - so you agree that your initial argument was incorrect. 

for point # 4 above - I'm sure you must be aware of the term "body shoppers" who pack H1Bs in hordes and ship them to US, fudge their experience to show them doubly experienced and earn hefty profits based on their share in the hourly employee wage rate. Do you think loopholes are not their in the H1B system which people exploit to ship sub-standard people? You don't need to be a genius to get an H1B for sure. I know first hand because I got an H1B a few years back and I was sponsored by a body shopping company and I know inside out how they work.

Maybe we need to accept the fact that things will not be per our choice any where we go in this world. I won't be surprised after a couple of years I find you going all gung ho over the Oz way of life.  You got to take the positives and move on. 

Most of the other comments from other posters seem to be personal frustrations which maybe only a minuscule number will encounter. For me Oz is the best place to be in though. PERIOD.


----------



## gurudev (Jan 15, 2013)

spark92 said:


> So essentially US system cares about the current marketplace. If someone is highly educated and that's useful to country which is a living proof by that person's employer, then they are allowed to immigrate.


Please check my post on how the H1B system is misused - http://www.expatforum.com/expats/australia-expat-forum-expats-living-australia/881146-job-markets-australis-vs-us-6.html#post8395210


----------



## 3br4h!m (Apr 4, 2015)

Having worked for a US company, I can speak a few things from experience:



*US Immigration system* sucks, and everyone agrees so I don't need to explain. My employers badly wanted me to join them in US, but H1 is a nightmare, so they gave up. I'm not even talking about GC here. On the contrary, Australian PR is _somewhat_ easier to obtain, but not so much that _anyone_ can get by. And even if they do, the living cost here makes sure only the (aptly named visa category) 'skilled' and/or determined ones stay.
*Salaries in Australia are almost similar to US salaries*, at least in my occupation. Just that in Australia, the range starts really low and goes high upto 200k depending on your experience and confidence whereas in US, the lowest salary is also seems pretty attractive probably because of the currency, lower living costs etc.. not sure. But complaining about salary is useless, if you have the right skills, experience and determination, I don't think why you wouldn't be valued as much in Australia as in US.
 *US also is filled with equal amount of highly incompetent people*. I was interviewed by a startup in SF and the founder complained about the lack of good designers and developers in SF. I couldn't believe at first, cause we're talking about Silicon Valley here! He said there are good ones, but they're prohibitively expensive for a startup, the rest (majority) are just grey-skilled imposters. In my company itself, the "Creative Director" was a stupid guy who just had a good personality but absolutely no knowledge of the work he had to do.
 Another factor I believe a lot of people ignore is *work-life balance*. In US there is no 'statutory minimum' for annual paid holidays. Its upto the employer and they usually give about 10 or so. Whereas in Australia, the minimum is 20, and could easily be 30-33, so I'd any day take a lesser salary and more holidays than vice versa.
 A lot has also been mentioned about the *healthcare* in US, but my first-hand experience: my employer although provided health insurance but it didn't cover pregnancy entirely, so we were looking at around 10k or so easily. I'm sure thats not the case in Australia .. I hope so.
 *Education* (primary at least) again, in Australia is obviously much cheaper and better than US. You save a ton of $$$ here too.

I'll try and add more points as I remember, but these are reason enough to appreciate Australia. Ofcourse, US has its pros too, but it would be mainly about money and career. Either way, as someone already mentioned ... grass is always greener on the other side.


----------



## HA_Aussies (Sep 20, 2015)

I am unable to comprehend the motive of the post intiator, rather than prompting a contructive discussion, he is hell bent upon imposing on us that America is better than Australia(sorry mate you are not wondering). You clearly seem to expect some assurances on the subject for the satisfaction of your ego. No offence intended though.


----------



## docsunny50 (May 24, 2015)

ag2015 said:


> I don't think a comparison between the two countries can completely be ruled out just because they are "too different". While the final decision about which is better for someone depends on ones priorities, ones situation etc., there is nothing wrong with a thread bringing out the different facts/perspectives. It doesn't mean that everyone will reach the same conclusion after going through the thread - only that everyone will make their own decision based on more information than they would have had without the thread. Having lived in the US for the past 7 years, I can tell you however that your comments about the gun culture and the healthcare system here are a little exaggerated. Yes, there is a problem with easy access to guns but it doesn't mean that I am afraid for my life every time I step out of my apartment. I live in New York City, and I can assure you that I have walked home at all hours of night and never felt in the slightest threatened by anyone. For healthcare, yes the system is not great for the people who cannot afford health insurance however, as someone pointed out in this thread, we are all professionals. Most companies offer excellent health coverage. For instance, I have a $20 co pay for a doctors visit, $35 for urgent care centers and $100 for an ER visit. My share of the monthly health insurance premium is $2. My annual out of pocket maximum is $2000; insurance pays 80% before reaching this ceiling and 100% after. Furthermore, with the the Affordable Healthcare Act (aka Obamacare), it is compulsory for any company with more than 50 employees to offer health insurance. So, as far as health care is concerned, I honestly haven't experienced any problems here. PS: My reasons for applying for the Australian PR are the broken immigration system here and the lack of stability. This thread has been immensely useful in bringing up the facts about a weaker labor market in Australia and will be a useful data point when it comes to making a decision about whether to move to Australia or not. Regardless of my decision though, I will be happy to at least have the option.


The reason I don't like comparisons is that you have different set-ups in OZ and US. Add to that your own biases and experiences, you don't get an objective picture. However, as a wise person said - facts do not lie. So here is for a fact based discussion. the Healthcare System is a privatised system in the US and in Australia it is a mix ( so you have a choice between public and private in OZ unlike the US). About 30 percent of the population still remain uninsured in the US either because they are unemployed or because they live in states that have not accepted ACA. I won't go into the things not covered by insurance and the need to visit select doctors or HMO's to obtain benefits. Your description of copayments seem to be too low to be real or universal. Also insurance either has premiums or do not cover select conditions, and there is a Damocles sword if insurance will reimburse you or not for some urgent hospitalisations. Another thing from a doctors point of view is the nightmare of getting reimbursement from Medicare. While it is a dated movie, I recommend watching Michael Moore's 'Sicko'. Gun Culture, I am not saying people live in mortal fear and stay at home in the US. I myself would take public transport in the wee hours in Miami for my shift in Hospital and then the same in Atlanta( I did get pointed by a Gun ( not sure it was a real Gun) at a bus stop in Miami, but the person was either drugged up or drunk). What appals me is that one of the most educated and intelligent populations in the world, can allow such easy access to high powered rifles. It is like a ticking bomb; it will eventually explode. It is not a matter of it but when? Public Schooling is a joke and you aren't left much choice but to go private, which is ridiculously expensive in most large population centres (In Australia, many private school fees are subsidised by the Government). I am not negative of the US as a country at all; it is one of my favourite countries because of its higher education and specialist training, innovation, travel, cheap property (non NY and non California), merit based career growth (at least in Silicon Valley) but I wouldn't live there with my family. I also don't expect anyone to be forced to come to OZ. My message is research the country, job market and figure out what is really important for you in your life - and move. Don't project your frustration to others who have different aspirations and needs. If you have a negative experience here in OZ, qualify it by saying this is my experience and I do not have the expertise to comment on details.... That way, readers will benefit.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

gurudev said:


> Please check my post on how the H1B system is misused - http://www.expatforum.com/expats/australia-expat-forum-expats-living-australia/881146-job-markets-australis-vs-us-6.html#post8395210


If you are referring to this misuse, then you definitely haven't seen loopholes and abuse of Aus system. Engineers are misusing the US system. Guess which all professions are misusing Aus one? Restaurant waiters with poor English is just one small example.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

HA_Aussies said:


> I am unable to comprehend the motive of the post intiator, rather than prompting a contructive discussion, he is hell bent upon imposing on us that America is better than Australia(sorry mate you are not wondering). You clearly seem to expect some assurances on the subject for the satisfaction of your ego. No offence intended though.


What was the motive of your post though? I guess 'constructive discussion'. Correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## HA_Aussies (Sep 20, 2015)

Yeap you are right, it is "constructive".


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

3br4h!m said:


> Having worked for a US company, I can speak a few things from experience:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exact opposite of your 1st point is true. Aus system ensures that 'skilled' migrants can do low-skilled casual jobs and still remain/ survive in the country. This isn't a good sign. Also, process for PR itself is so easy and exploitable.. Poor English and low IELTS? Then get a state sponsorship or do professional year course. Not eligible for 189, no worries - try 190. Not eligible for even 190 - try 489. Or else come as a dummy student and find your way to PR anyway. Don't have so much patience? Pay a few thousands to fraudster business owner (typically of grocery stores and restaurants) and he will do your 457. Just spend 2 yrs on it and get eligible for PR anyway. And you think it's strict enough to maintain the quality of immigrants!

Hope you are talking about primary education and not tertiary one.

You have also agreed that for career and money, the US is a far better choice.


----------



## nextgoal (Dec 27, 2013)

kettlerope said:


> What I have mentioned in the post is fact! If SAT, GRE, GMAT, IELTS etc aren't facts then are they illusions, mate?


lol , you cannot simply say people who do not pass these exams have low IQ or had sub-standard education. 

H1B doesnt have quality screening , the candidates are picked in a lottery and you say these people are brightest of the minds ?? 

I stick to my statement , what you have posted are not facts , they could be any of imaginations , illusions , ignorance and immaturity . Seems the US needs you!


----------



## 3br4h!m (Apr 4, 2015)

*Job markets - Australis Vs US?*



kettlerope said:


> Exact opposite of your 1st point is true. Aus system ensures that 'skilled' migrants can do low-skilled casual jobs and still remain/ survive in the country. This isn't a good sign. Also, process for PR itself is so easy and exploitable.. Poor English and low IELTS? Then get a state sponsorship or do professional year course. Not eligible for 189, no worries - try 190. Not eligible for even 190 - try 489. Or else come as a dummy student and find your way to PR anyway. Don't have so much patience? Pay a few thousands to fraudster business owner (typically of grocery stores and restaurants) and he will do your 457. Just spend 2 yrs on it and get eligible for PR anyway. And you think it's strict enough to maintain the quality of immigrants!
> 
> Hope you are talking about primary education and not tertiary one.
> 
> You have also agreed that for career and money, the US is a far better choice.



You skipped through all my points and picked the ones you could talk negative about.

So everyone on 189/190/457 is doing low-skilled jobs, says who? Are you stating "facts" here or is it just your opinion?

I guess its useless to argue further. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## spark92 (Nov 8, 2010)

I'm actually surprised how many people here commenting about how good Australia is without actually working/have worked in Australia.

If jobs are that great and easy to find, why don't you guys come to Australia on 457 visa and avoid 189/190 visas altogether?


----------



## rahulreshu (Aug 11, 2013)

spark92 said:


> If jobs are that great and easy to find, why don't you guys come to Australia on 457 visa and avoid 189/190 visas altogether?


A PR/GC is way better than a 457/H1B. I've worked on an H1B in USA for several years and always lived with the fear that if I lost my job I would have to find another one quickly or pack up my bags and leave. What happened with me was far worse but that is not relevant here.

On a PR/GC, you don't have to live with that fear. If you can afford it, you can be unemployed forever and no one can boot you.


----------



## ag2015 (Jul 10, 2015)

Wow - this discussion has veered far off the original discussion and basically devolved in to some sort of US vs Australia flame war.

My TCW on the quality of immigrants: If we make the assumption that everyone here is (or at least thinks they are) well qualified, then lower quality immigrants don't really affect your chances at jobs. If they are not very bright, then by consequence they can't qualify for the jobs that you can qualify for. So I don't think the discussion about the quality of immigrants and abuse of the H1B/Skilled Migration programs serves a useful purpose in the context of this particular thread - the job market for skilled professionals in one country vs. the other.

PS: @docsunny: I have worked for 3 different companies and had 5 difference insurance policies and I can tell you that the co pays and out of pocket maximums I quoted are in line with all of those policies. My share of the monthly insurance premium is definitely much lower in my current company, but even in the company where it was the highest, it was in the range of $130 if I recall correctly. As a doctor, perhaps you saw people form all strata of society and therefore think my insurance policy is too good to be true but as a professional, I think my policy is in line with what I have seen in previous jobs and heard from friends.


----------



## gurudev (Jan 15, 2013)

spark92 said:


> I'm actually surprised how many people here commenting about how good Australia is without actually working/have worked in Australia.
> 
> If jobs are that great and easy to find, why don't you guys come to Australia on 457 visa and avoid 189/190 visas altogether?


The discussion here seems to have veered towards personal opinion and maybe unfairly generalising a particular experience rather than viewing things objectively. 

We all are different and therefore we're going to differ and that is the beauty of it all - we're unique. I hope wherever each one of us chooses to go, each one of us should be happy and successful. The only thing we need to ensure is that we take full responsibility of our decisions and look at the bigger picture. 

My suggestion to the silent readers of this thread is - don't get bogged down by personal opinions and prejudices.

To end on a philosophical note - Follow your heart when in doubt. 😁


----------



## docsunny50 (May 24, 2015)

ag2015 said:


> Wow - this discussion has veered far off the original discussion and basically devolved in to some sort of US vs Australia flame war.
> 
> My TCW on the quality of immigrants: If we make the assumption that everyone here is (or at least thinks they are) well qualified, then lower quality immigrants don't really affect your chances at jobs. If they are not very bright, then by consequence they can't qualify for the jobs that you can qualify for. So I don't think the discussion about the quality of immigrants and abuse of the H1B/Skilled Migration programs serves a useful purpose in the context of this particular thread - the job market for skilled professionals in one country vs. the other.
> 
> PS: @docsunny: I have worked for 3 different companies and had 5 difference insurance policies and I can tell you that the co pays and out of pocket maximums I quoted are in line with all of those policies. My share of the monthly insurance premium is definitely much lower in my current company, but even in the company where it was the highest, it was in the range of $130 if I recall correctly. As a doctor, perhaps you saw people form all strata of society and therefore think my insurance policy is too good to be true but as a professional, I think my policy is in line with what I have seen in previous jobs and heard from friends.


Thanks AG; I hope you make your decision to leave or stay in USA after thorough research. Wish you the best.


----------



## JK684 (Apr 2, 2015)

For IT, US is still the best market, period. and Australia is a small market for IT. but still lot of techies ( read from India) chose Australia because it is very tough to get a new H1B or an L visa . and the green card queue is very long for India (and China too ). Most of the Indian companies are exploiting this situation and abuse the H1B system a lot. I have applied for AUS PR by knowing all these facts, and there is no point in repenting later that I should have gone to USA. and if you are so hell bent on going to US, then get an E-3 visa after becoming an AUS citizen. But i heard that you may not get it for a longer time if you are a naturalized Aussie citizen.


----------



## dannyduke (Sep 19, 2015)

JK684 said:


> For IT, US is still the best market, period. and Australia is a small market for IT. but still lot of techies ( read from India) chose Australia because it is very tough to get a new H1B or an L visa . and the green card queue is very long for India (and China too ). Most of the Indian companies are exploiting this situation and abuse the H1B system a lot. I have applied for AUS PR by knowing all these facts, and there is no point in repenting later that I should have gone to USA. and if you are so hell bent on going to US, then get an E-3 visa after becoming an AUS citizen. But i heard that you may not get it for a longer time if you are a naturalized Aussie citizen.


I agree, as green card is based on place of birth, becoming an Australian citizen will not make any difference on green card process for Indians and Chinese. E3 visa technically can be extended but it is not dual intent like H1B, and you have to attend the renewal interview with a US Embassy and they will question your ties to Australia if you keep renewing.


----------



## JK684 (Apr 2, 2015)

dannyduke said:


> I agree, as green card is based on place of birth, becoming an Australian citizen will not make any difference on green card process for Indians and Chinese. E3 visa technically can be extended but it is not dual intent like H1B, and you have to attend the renewal interview with a US Embassy and they will question your ties to Australia if you keep renewing.


But if I am well settled in Australia with a good job, I dont think i will consider US (may be for a change work 2-3 years in US and then come back).


----------



## 3br4h!m (Apr 4, 2015)

dannyduke said:


> I agree, as green card is based on place of birth, becoming an Australian citizen will not make any difference on green card process for Indians and Chinese. E3 visa technically can be extended but it is not dual intent like H1B, and you have to attend the renewal interview with a US Embassy and they will question your ties to Australia if you keep renewing.


Not true. If you're a naturalized Australian Citizen, you lose Indian citizenship automatically (India doesn't allow dual-citizensip) and are treated as an Australian Citizen so there's no extended waiting period like there is for Indians. And yes, although E3 is not a dual intent visa, but employer can still sponsor you for GC.


----------



## dannyduke (Sep 19, 2015)

3br4h!m said:


> Not true. If you're a naturalized Australian Citizen, you lose Indian citizenship automatically (India doesn't allow dual-citizensip) and are treated as an Australian Citizen so there's no extended waiting period like there is for Indians. And yes, although E3 is not a dual intent visa, but employer can still sponsor you for GC.


It is the place of birth, not citizenship, green card process has always been based on place of birth. 

You technically can apply for GC on an E3, but for Indians, it is a 5-7 years of wait while E3 is 2 year validity, so you have to renew at least 3 times. How are you going to answer US officer about your ties to Australia? Be awared that if you get rejected US visa once, you will not be eligible to use the visa-waiver program to enter the US.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

3br4h!m said:


> You skipped through all my points and picked the ones you could talk negative about.
> 
> So everyone on 189/190/457 is doing low-skilled jobs, says who? Are you stating "facts" here or is it just your opinion?
> 
> ...


I agree to the rest of your points. That's why I didn't mention them.


----------



## JK684 (Apr 2, 2015)

3br4h!m said:


> Not true. If you're a naturalized Australian Citizen, you lose Indian citizenship automatically (India doesn't allow dual-citizensip) and are treated as an Australian Citizen so there's no extended waiting period like there is for Indians. And yes, although E3 is not a dual intent visa, but employer can still sponsor you for GC.


Not it is not true. Green card is just based on the country birth, not citizenship. Even if you become an Aussie citizen, the Indian priority dates for green card queue applies to you as your country of birth doesnt change. If you want a link as proof for this let me know . I have a friend (who is an Indian) who works in IT , but born in Nigeria, got his green card very quickly as the wait time was less for his case due to the country of birth.


----------



## JK684 (Apr 2, 2015)

dannyduke said:


> It is the place of birth, not citizenship, green card process has always been based on place of birth.
> 
> You technically can apply for GC on an E3, but for Indians, it is a 5-7 years of wait while E3 is 2 year validity, so you have to renew at least 3 times. How are you going to answer US officer about your ties to Australia? Be awared that if you get rejected US visa once, you will not be eligible to use the visa-waiver program to enter the US.


yes you are right, and I guess you cant renew E3 indefinitely like in the case of H1B with green card application. the AC21 rule (American Competitiveness in the Twenty-First Century Act of 2000) may not be applicable for E-3 visa holders i suppose.


----------



## 3br4h!m (Apr 4, 2015)

dannyduke said:


> It is the place of birth, not citizenship, green card process has always been based on place of birth.
> 
> You technically can apply for GC on an E3, but for Indians, it is a 5-7 years of wait while E3 is 2 year validity, so you have to renew at least 3 times. How are you going to answer US officer about your ties to Australia? Be awared that if you get rejected US visa once, you will not be eligible to use the visa-waiver program to enter the US.


I stand corrected - its by place of birth. 

Go on E3, get a job. Switch to H1, apply for GC?


----------



## dannyduke (Sep 19, 2015)

3br4h!m said:


> I stand corrected - its by place of birth.
> 
> Go on E3, get a job. Switch to H1, apply for GC?


That is like back to square 1, a lot of folks already on H1B trying to escape the US backlog by going to Australia and H1B has quota.


----------



## 3br4h!m (Apr 4, 2015)

Escape the backlog by going to Australia, how? Do you mean leaving US altogether and getting Aus PR?

Yes, H1 has quota but the situation is not so bad for everyone else except Indians. One can work on and keep renewing E3 while applying for H1 simultaneously, no?


----------



## ozbound12 (Mar 23, 2012)

spark92 said:


> So essentially US system cares about the current marketplace. If someone is highly educated and that's useful to country which is a living proof by that person's employer, then they are allowed to immigrate. In contrast to Australian system where everyone is allowed to as long as they can bring money in. This has become even more obvious when Abbott wanted to introduce $50k for citizenship programme (obviously it's a stupid idea for the government as, if they introduce that then they won't earn any money from int'l students) So the example above same person can get the permanent residency within the similar amount of time for both countries.


Not really. The cap on H1-B visas has been a pain in the backside for many companies who want to recruit foreign workers but can't. Then there are the many issues with employment based green cards that people have already mentioned. Anyone who has even a passing familiarity with the US immigration system knows that the system is absolutely not geared to hiring skilled workers, it has always been based on family connections (particularly spousal green cards). If you marry a US citizen, you can get a green card in months.

Anyway, this thread seems to have moved towards the ridiculous and, as with any of these X vs Y threads, there appears to be no resolution. (Just have a look at one of the hundreds of Sydney vs Melbourne threads that crops up every couple of months.) Seems like a good opportunity to close this thread.


----------



## ag2015 (Jul 10, 2015)

I agree that this is a good point point to close this thread, but just wanted to post this link I thought was useful. 

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Australia


----------



## spark92 (Nov 8, 2010)

rahulreshu said:


> A PR/GC is way better than a 457/H1B. I've worked on an H1B in USA for several years and always lived with the fear that if I lost my job I would have to find another one quickly or pack up my bags and leave. What happened with me was far worse but that is not relevant here.
> 
> On a PR/GC, you don't have to live with that fear. If you can afford it, you can be unemployed forever and no one can boot you.


And how are you with your current status in Australia?


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

gurudev said:


> for point # 4 above - I'm sure you must be aware of the term "body shoppers" who pack H1Bs in hordes and ship them to US, fudge their experience to show them doubly experienced and earn hefty profits based on their share in the hourly employee wage rate. Do you think loopholes are not their in the H1B system which people exploit to ship sub-standard people? You don't need to be a genius to get an H1B for sure. I know first hand because I got an H1B a few years back and I was sponsored by a body shopping company and I know inside out how they work.


I am absolutely aware of it. While any type of body shopping is bad, if I have to choose one, I would prefer to live in a country where body shopping of engineers is prevalent rather than the country where body shopping of low-skilled workers and dummy students is prevalent. At least, the body shopping of engineers demonstrates a vibrant job market and availability of high-skilled jobs. Nothing against the other place though.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

ozbound12 said:


> If you marry a US citizen, you can get a green card in months.
> 
> Seems like a good opportunity to close this thread.


While I don't know if it's a good opportunity to close this thread or gain more info through comparison, I always thought that above statement was true for Australia too. In fact, partner of a student visa holder can work too in Australia. Partner of 457 visa holder can work too. Which system can be so liberal? The US has been successful in restricting the work rights to dependents at the least. in Aus, many couples are misusing student visa to move there. One person joins some shoddy college and his/her partner works full time and repay the fees and eventually they just find a way to remain in the country. Student visa is used just as a way to come there.


----------



## rahulreshu (Aug 11, 2013)

spark92 said:


> And how are you with your current status in Australia?


Well to be honest my first preference was and will always remain USA but I am very happy in Australia too. I have a stable job (got an initial 4 month contract a month after arrival and it's been going on since and they should be offering me full time soon) barely 200 meters from my house. I don't live here with any of that fear I used to live with in USA.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

nextgoal said:


> lol , you cannot simply say people who do not pass these exams have low IQ or had sub-standard education.
> 
> H1B doesnt have quality screening , the candidates are picked in a lottery and you say these people are brightest of the minds ??
> 
> I stick to my statement , what you have posted are not facts , they could be any of imaginations , illusions , ignorance and immaturity . Seems the US needs you!


Mate, if you think that scores on American tests such as GRE, GMAT or SAT don't correlate to IQ level or intelligence, then which qualifying system would you want the reputed universities to follow? Do you think that 6 bands (or even less in some visas such as 489) in IELTS along with state sponsorship and an employment proof are better qualifiers for immigration to a country than these exams which most of the students (potential immigrants) applying to the US unis take? And if you really think so, then may God bless you.

Moreover, as I said earlier, given a choice, I would prefer to be among visa lottery winner engineers than the dumb students or low-skilled workers. Period. Obviously, things don't work out as per our choice always but then I won't lie just because it sounds sweeter.


----------



## spark92 (Nov 8, 2010)

rahulreshu said:


> Well to be honest my first preference was and will always remain USA but I am very happy in Australia too. I have a stable job (got an initial 4 month contract a month after arrival and it's been going on since and they should be offering me full time soon) barely 200 meters from my house. I don't live here with any of that fear I used to live with in USA.


How long did it take for you to get a job?
Is the money good? (Is it also contractor or fixed term full time?)
How are you financially compared to USA?


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

rahulreshu said:


> Well to be honest my first preference was and will always remain USA but I am very happy in Australia too. I have a stable job (got an initial 4 month contract a month after arrival and it's been going on since and they should be offering me full time soon) barely 200 meters from my house. I don't live here with any of that fear I used to live with in USA.


I completely agree. Australia has much lower crime rate as compared to the US and the whole environment feels safer.


----------



## rahulreshu (Aug 11, 2013)

spark92 said:


> How long did it take for you to get a job?
> Is the money good? (Is it also contractor or fixed term full time?)
> How are you financially compared to USA?


I started the job a month after my arrival here.
Yes, money is good, although low for contractor... but I just wanted something to get started here. 100K+.

I am a contractor currently and the contract ends in 10 days. They are working on offering me a fixed term full time soon and my pay will stay roughly the same as they were paying me while on contract so I only stand to gain since I will not lose pay for public holidays and can take vacation/sick days without loss of pay.

USA also I was getting roughly the same amount (although the Aussie dollar has not been faring that well for several months) but cost of living was lower there since I usually lived in PG accommodations... partly to do with the fear I mentioned  Didn't want to buy furniture, etc.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

ag2015 said:


> I agree that this is a good point point to close this thread, but just wanted to post this link I thought was useful.
> 
> Cost Of Living Comparison Between United States And Australia


How do people decide as to exactly which point is a good point to close the thread? I mean - won't you like to let it go for a few more days and let others participate irrespective of their points being positive or negative for the US or Aus. The whole discussion helps even silent readers a lot and that's the biggest advantage.


----------



## rahulreshu (Aug 11, 2013)

kettlerope said:


> I completely agree. Australia has much lower crime rate as compared to the US and the whole environment feels safer.


I was referring to a different kind of fear... the fear of having to pack up my bags and leave from USA 

But I totally agree with you on that. Shootings in USA have become so common that hearing about them just doesn't surprise me. In fact if a month went by without a mass shooting in USA, I'd feel surprised. Kudos to the Aussies for taking such a tough stance on guns... I believe it all came about after the mass shooting in Tasmania or something if I'm not mistaken where 35 people were shot dead.


----------



## gurudev (Jan 15, 2013)

kettlerope said:


> I am absolutely aware of it. While any type of body shopping is bad, if I have to choose one, I would prefer to live in a country where body shopping of engineers is prevalent rather than the country where body shopping of low-skilled workers and dummy students is prevalent. At least, the body shopping of engineers demonstrates a vibrant job market and availability of high-skilled jobs. Nothing against the other place though.


Are you in US or India? Or are you in the process of getting an H1B? 

You seem to be all gaga about US. Kudos to your tenacity  

I hope US makes you happy as definitely Australia will make me and other Oz-aspirants happy.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

spark92 said:


> I'm actually surprised how many people here commenting about how good Australia is without actually working/have worked in Australia.
> 
> If jobs are that great and easy to find, why don't you guys come to Australia on 457 visa and avoid 189/190 visas altogether?


Exactly! The thread is mainly about 1) Number of jobs (availability) 2) Career growth and 3) Salaries. People are deviating so much from these topics.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

gurudev said:


> Are you in US or India? Or are you in the process of getting an H1B?
> 
> You seem to be all gaga about US. Kudos to your tenacity
> 
> I hope US makes you happy as definitely Australia will make me and other Oz-aspirants happy.


I might first try for L1B and if it doesn't work out, then I will try for H1B. Keeping my fingers crossed honestly, as these are just plans and nowhere close to execution. They are beyond my control alone as you know. Thanks for your wishes though.


----------



## gurudev (Jan 15, 2013)

kettlerope said:


> I might first try for L1B and if it doesn't work out, then I will try for H1B. Keeping my fingers crossed honestly, as these are just plans and nowhere close to execution. They are beyond my control alone as you know. Thanks for your wishes though.


Well you have a long journey ahead mate. A lot lies in the hands of destiny. Wish you all the best!!!


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

rahulreshu said:


> I was referring to a different kind of fear... the fear of having to pack up my bags and leave from USA
> 
> But I totally agree with you on that. Shootings in USA have become so common that hearing about them just doesn't surprise me. In fact if a month went by without a mass shooting in USA, I'd feel surprised. Kudos to the Aussies for taking such a tough stance on guns... I believe it all came about after the mass shooting in Tasmania or something if I'm not mistaken where 35 people were shot dead.


Yup, the UK and Aus implemented the new gun laws almost at the similar time somewhere in 1996 if I am not mistaken. Some politicians in the US oppose the proposed gun control laws every now and then and the outcome is in front of us, sadly.


----------



## kaju (Oct 31, 2011)

kettlerope said:


> How do people decide as to exactly which point is a good point to close the thread? I mean - won't you like to let it go for a few more days and let others participate irrespective of their points being positive or negative for the US or Aus. The whole discussion helps even silent readers a lot and that's the biggest advantage.


Moderators decide whether, and when, threads will be closed. 

Posters are welcome to suggest closure of a thread, but that decision will be made by a moderator who may very well have a different opinion. Then again, they may have the same opinion! 

You can rest assured that a moderator will have seen requests to close a thread, (we have many moderators, and while most specialise within an individual country's forums, we also can moderate others) but if it is still open, then that's their call to make. They may very well not answer such public requests, as the fact that the thread remains open is indicative of their decision. 

However, to allay any doubts, I'm happy to say publicly that for the moment, I'm inclined to let the conversation continue. 

Should you disagree, please see the final paragraph of this post.

Moderators generally prefer not to close threads if there is not sufficient reason - which there might be if the thread or individual posters got out of control, or if they felt nothing was to be gained by further discussion. However, just because that view is held by one or more posters, it may not the view of others, or the moderator.

While a thread continues to have an active discussion, assuming everyone is behaving, moderators will generally prefer to keep the thread open.

You're welcome to discuss moderation issues with a moderator, and we don't mind general questions publicly. However, for specific actions or issues, especially if already addressed by a moderator, you should contact a moderator by Private Message as public discussion of specific moderation is not allowed as per Rule 5: http://www.expatforum.com/expats/general-expat-discussions/2397-forum-rules.html

Thank you.


----------



## ozbound12 (Mar 23, 2012)

kettlerope said:


> While I don't know if it's a good opportunity to close this thread or gain more info through comparison, I always thought that above statement was true for Australia too. In fact, partner of a student visa holder can work too in Australia. Partner of 457 visa holder can work too. Which system can be so liberal? The US has been successful in restricting the work rights to dependents at the least. in Aus, many couples are misusing student visa to move there. One person joins some shoddy college and his/her partner works full time and repay the fees and eventually they just find a way to remain in the country. Student visa is used just as a way to come there.


Yes, and this happens in the US too. There are far more 'shoddy colleges' in the US then there are universities in Australia. People find ways to stay and work illegally in the US after coming in on some kind of legitimate visa, it happens all the time. So what.


----------



## rahulreshu (Aug 11, 2013)

kettlerope said:


> Some politicians in the US oppose the proposed gun control laws every now and then and the outcome is in front of us, sadly.


Obviously those politicians and the NRA are paid well by the gun makers. As per the NRA, the Aussie gun laws are a mistake 

Your gun laws are a mistake: National Rifle Association to Australia


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

kaju said:


> While a thread continues to have an active discussion, assuming everyone is behaving, moderators will generally prefer to keep the thread open.


Thanks, moderator. I thought so too, as for such vast discussion topics and a high number of potential contributors (from Aus and the US), I thought it would be too early to close the thread but then eventually it's the decision of moderators that matters. However, I sincerely wish that the discussion remains healthy and informative even for those who aren't participating but just reading. That way, the thread can go on.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

rahulreshu said:


> Obviously those politicians and the NRA are paid well by the gun makers. As per the NRA, the Aussie gun laws are a mistake
> 
> Your gun laws are a mistake: National Rifle Association to Australia


Funny.. It's so interesting that most of we Indians don't even know about our gun laws but random shootouts almost never happen in such a densely populated and chaotic society! It's incredible indeed..


----------



## rahulreshu (Aug 11, 2013)

kettlerope said:


> Funny.. It's so interesting that most of we Indians don't even know about our gun laws but random shootouts almost never happen in such a densely populated and chaotic society! It's incredible indeed..


Yes, very true.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

ozbound12 said:


> Yes, and this happens in the US too. There are far more 'shoddy colleges' in the US then there are universities in Australia. People find ways to stay and work illegally in the US after coming in on some kind of legitimate visa, it happens all the time. So what.


Not sure abt the current situation, but student visa interviews for the US used to be pretty strict 3-4 years ago (when my friends went to study) with quite a good number of rejections (more so in cases of such shoddy colleges). On other hand, Aus doesn't even interview students for their student visas. As long as you have money to pay fees, you can just get in - leave aside the comparison of respective entrance tests that both countries use for various courses! Aus visa approval is offline (no interviews) and there's hardly any rejection! Which process would you personally prefer if you had to choose one for your own country in order to bring quality students in (remember - they are potential immigrants in the long term)?


----------



## ozbound12 (Mar 23, 2012)

kettlerope said:


> Not sure abt the current situation, but student visa interviews for the US used to be pretty strict 3-4 years ago (when my friends went to study) with quite a good number of rejections (more so in cases of such shoddy colleges). On other hand, Aus doesn't even interview students for their student visas. As long as you have money to pay fees, you can just get in! Visa approval is offline (no interviews) and there's hardly any rejection! Which process would you personally prefer if you had to choose one for your own country in order to bring quality students in (remember - they are potential immigrants in long term of course)?


Right because an interview somehow makes things that much more rigorous. I'm sure that those overworked and underpaid visa clerks are working hard to keep my country safe from the scourge of non-quality students.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

ozbound12 said:


> Right because an interview somehow makes things that much more rigorous. I'm sure that those overworked and underpaid visa clerks are working hard to keep my country safe from the scourge of non-quality students.


Absolutely! I am in 100% agreement with you as far as the system proof is concerned. Not sure about salaries of visa officers though.


----------



## haisergeant (Sep 30, 2013)

Thank everyone for your input, it gives me a better view about job market in both countries.


----------



## kk1234 (Sep 26, 2015)

I had once asked some Australian Bschools that why they care so little about the gmat. They said for them prior work ex is much more important than gmat scores. Most Australian Bschool students have several years of managerial work ex with an average age of 35 years. Executive MBAs are 40 plus as an average age. However the top Bschools in Australia who do admit you at a lower age for their full time programs do require a gmat. Again it's not that it's because these schools want to use it as a filter but it's like a substitute to judge you since you don't have several years of full time managerial work ex. Part time students don't need to take gmat. Exec MBAs don't need to take gmat. Only 3 schools expect you to take GMAT for their full time young entrants program - this if for those who question the quality of education in Aus just because schools don't ask for GMAT. They will most likely not admit you into their Bschool program which does not require GMAT if you don't have the right kind and the minimum number of managerial work ex. In the U.S. however the requirement for work ex is more lenient and the emphasis is more on GMAT. In india most of the top schools including IIM don't need prior work ex. It's all about cracking the entrance tests. The other extreme of that compared to Australia. I have come to a realisation or a conclusion that Australia in MANY ways is "different" as compared to US and India. Not "superior" or "inferior". Their systems, their ways to get hired, their eduction, lifestyle everything is different. No wonder when people say it's a stand alone far away island from the rest of the world, they are not wrong!


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

kk1234 said:


> I had once asked some Australian Bschools that why they care so little about the gmat. They said for them prior work ex is much more important than gmat scores. Most Australian Bschool students have several years of managerial work ex with an average age of 35 years. Executive MBAs are 40 plus as an average age. However the top Bschools in Australia who do admit you at a lower age for their full time programs do require a gmat. Again it's not that it's because these schools want to use it as a filter but it's like a substitute to judge you since you don't have several years of full time managerial work ex. Part time students don't need to take gmat. Exec MBAs don't need to take gmat. Only 3 schools expect you to take GMAT for their full time young entrants program - this if for those who question the quality of education in Aus just because schools don't ask for GMAT. They will most likely not admit you into their Bschool program which does not require GMAT if you don't have the right kind and the minimum number of managerial work ex. In the U.S. however the requirement for work ex is more lenient and the emphasis is more on GMAT. In india most of the top schools including IIM don't need prior work ex. It's all about cracking the entrance tests. The other extreme of that compared to Australia. I have come to a realisation or a conclusion that Australia in MANY ways is "different" as compared to US and India. Not "superior" or "inferior". Their systems, their ways to get hired, their eduction, lifestyle everything is different. No wonder when people say it's a stand alone far away island from the rest of the world, they are not wrong!


But, how about IELTS (not even very high band) as a qualifier for UG and PG courses which don't even require work exp???!! How easy can it get, mate?


----------



## ag2015 (Jul 10, 2015)

I don't know what he basis for admissions in to Australian universities is I can tell you this: American universities pay very little attention to GRE scores. It could be used as a pre filtering criterion with a pretty low bar, but that's s about it. Admission committees give much more weight to academics, essays, work experience if any and recommendation letters (that they find credible). 

So your contention about the lack of GRE as a criterion correlating to a lower selectivity is not correct. 

I don't know one way or the other about the selectivity of Australian schools - all I'm saying is that the lack of standardized test scores as a criterion is a weak data point as best.


----------



## ozbound12 (Mar 23, 2012)

kettlerope said:


> Absolutely! I am in 100% agreement with you as far as the system proof is concerned. Not sure about salaries of visa officers though.


Ever heard of sarcasm?


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

ag2015 said:


> I don't know what he basis for admissions in to Australian universities is I can tell you this: American universities pay very little attention to GRE scores. It could be used as a pre filtering criterion with a pretty low bar, but that's s about it. Admission committees give much more weight to academics, essays, work experience if any and recommendation letters (that they find credible).
> 
> So your contention about the lack of GRE as a criterion correlating to a lower selectivity is not correct.
> 
> I don't know one way or the other about the selectivity of Australian schools - all I'm saying is that the lack of standardized test scores as a criterion is a weak data point as best.


Well, I have seen people who scored well on IELTS but couldn't do well on GRE or SAT or GMAT. Reverse of this is generally not true and logically not possible if you know a bit about these exams. IELTS is one of the easiest exams to be considered as an admission criterion for the competitive UG and PG programs. Now, if you argue that the concept of entrance test itself isn't very powerful then admission criteria of Ivy League and most other top universities in the US and around the globe (including JEE for IITs and CAT for IIMs and GMAT for ISB) become questionable. I don't, however, intend to say that all these highly ranked unis (mostly from the US) don't take into account other factors while assessing students for admissions. In fact, day by day, test scores are becoming the primary qualifiers to enter the top programs. You generally see average GRE or SAT or GMAT for any reputed programs. Have to ever hear of average IELTS l?  What better explanation can I give?


----------



## ag2015 (Jul 10, 2015)

First - IELTS is not used as a replacement for GRE, it is used as a replacement for TOEFL. It isn't meant to quantify or signify your intelligence or lack thereof, only your ability in English in order to make sure that you will be able to actually follow the education imparted to you. 

Second - I don't know what your basis for declaring that the standardized admission tests are the major/most important criterion is US schools is. I went to a reasonably good school and I reviewed applications for students being considered for my research group with my professor and I can tell you that the GRE score didn't matter. If you have a very low score, it might count against you, once you clear that low bar, a 1600 (or whatever is the highest score on GRE these days) won't get you into MIT. 

Finally - we have veered far off from the topic at hand. The quality of immigrants, if low in Australia, actually helps our cause since presumably we all consider ourselves "quality" immigrants. So this discussion isn't really helpful for someone trying to choose between one country or the other imho.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

ag2015 said:


> First - IELTS is not used as a replacement for GRE, it is used as a replacement for TOEFL. It isn't meant to quantify or signify your intelligence or lack thereof, only your ability in English in order to make sure that you will be able to actually follow the education imparted to you.
> 
> Second - I don't know what your basis for declaring that the standardized admission tests are the major/most important criterion is US schools is. I went to a reasonably good school and I reviewed applications for students being considered for my research group with my professor and I can tell you that the GRE score didn't matter. If you have a very low score, it might count against you, once you clear that low bar, a 1600 (or whatever is the highest score on GRE these days) won't get you into MIT.
> 
> Finally - we have veered far off from the topic at hand. The quality of immigrants, if low in Australia, actually helps our cause since presumably we all consider ourselves "quality" immigrants. So this discussion isn't really helpful for someone trying to choose between one country or the other imho.


Thanks for your reply. 

1. While IELTS and TOEFL are equivalent, I can confirm that unis in Australia use just IELTS as admission criterion and no other test. I had admit from 2 unis in Master in Accounting program 2 years back just basis my IELTS scores. And US unis required me to take GMAT along with TOEFL. I know a couple of friends who did Masters in IT in Aus unis, who also went through just IELTS. I am 100% sure about it though eventually I decided to continue my job in India.

2. I agree that 1600 GRE won't ensure admission into MIT but then 1300 GRE and everything else good won't either. I am sure these unis are extremely competitive in terms of GRE/ GMAT for PG programs and SAT for UG programs. If you have doubts, all you need to do is check their average scores of the existing class! I get your point though.


----------



## ag2015 (Jul 10, 2015)

@kettlerope

I'm a little confused here, the point of this thread is ostensibly to get information about the Australian and American job markets and other relevant factors from people who are better informed than us because they have some first hand experience in some relevant factor. Yet, you seem to want to relentlessly prove that the US is a better place in all aspects, compared to Australia. You seem to want to refute the first hand experience of someone based on what you are "sure" about, based on what? On what basis are you so certain about your ideas and that you refuse to accept a contradictory opinion based on first hand experience?

For your points:

1) I am not saying that Australian universities require some other test instead of GRE. All I am saying is that comparing the requirement of GRE in US universities with the IELTS requirement of Australian ones is pointless. A way to think of it is: instead of TOEFL, you take the IELTS for Australia. Instead of GRE in the US, you don't have a standardized test in Australia - universities make their decision based on other criteria (NOT using IELTS as a substitute for GRE).

2) FYI, the EECS department of MIT doesn't need GRE for its graduate programs. Should we classify it as a lower quality program than say Idaho State University, which does require the GRE? There is some correlation between academic achievement and GRE scores and therefore students who are admitted to top programs tend to have good GRE scores. That does not however mean that their GRE score is WHY they were admitted, it only means that the multitude of factors that they were admitted for has some correlation with GRE. Again - I'm not making any claims about the ability of the GRE to predict academic success, all I'm saying is that the lack of GRE is a criterion for university admissions is not an indicator of selectivity. Each school decides its admission criteria based on what it feels will give it the best student body, the presence or absence of a specific criterion doesn't mean much.


----------



## kk1234 (Sep 26, 2015)

kettlerope said:


> But, how about IELTS (not even very high band) as a qualifier for UG and PG courses which don't even require work exp???!! How easy can it get, mate?


There are tons of schools in the U.S. too who would admit one on low TOEFL scores without having to take GRE or GMAT for UG and PG.

Can't compare education since schools in both countries have their own requirements and standards.

Leaving a few schools, education is more of a business than anything else, be it Aus, US or India.


----------



## MarissaAnna (Sep 27, 2014)

kettlerope,
When my Italian family migrated to Australia, the USA was the promised land and anyone with any qualifications chose to go there. My poor father had't finished school so he had to come here and cut cane.
Of course, everything is bigger and better there and I really feel that you deserve to be somewhere where your skills and ambition can thrive.
We unfortunates stuck in this backwater will just have to struggle on the best we can.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

kk1234 said:


> Leaving a few schools, education is more of a business than anything else, be it Aus, US or India.


Absolutely agree!!


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

MarissaAnna said:


> kettlerope,
> When my Italian family migrated to Australia, the USA was the promised land and anyone with any qualifications chose to go there. My poor father had't finished school so he had to come here and cut cane.
> Of course, everything is bigger and better there and I really feel that you deserve to be somewhere where your skills and ambition can thrive.
> We unfortunates stuck in this backwater will just have to struggle on the best we can.


I can't agree more.


----------



## AusEducated (Oct 8, 2015)

kettlerope said:


> I might first try for L1B and if it doesn't work out, then I will try for H1B. Keeping my fingers crossed honestly, as these are just plans and nowhere close to execution. They are beyond my control alone as you know. Thanks for your wishes though.


If US was your dream all along then why not go for Canada PR?
It was much cheaper process and every year majority of newly christened Citizens hop borders.

You could have saved some money and effort.


----------



## sandeep.2014 (May 23, 2015)

A few things about US VISA's

L1B is not a pathway to perm residency in US, nor is H1B. Your employer needs to apply for the green card, which means potentially you are stuck with that employer or if you are changing jobs you need to find out an employer who is going to sponsor your GC or PERM Labour certification. In my opinion that severely limits your choice of getting a job that you like. 

189 is a self sponsored visa; where residency and citizenship is not dictated by an employer.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

AusEducated said:


> If US was your dream all along then why not go for Canada PR?
> It was much cheaper process and every year majority of newly christened Citizens hop borders.
> 
> You could have saved some money and effort.


I completely agree now when I look back. When I initiated the thought process some time in late 2013, I didn't know that Aus market could be THIS bad in terms of number of jobs, career growth and of course salaries. Anyway, I don't regret it so much though since the PR was still worth the cost if I wanted to actually move and I did the process myself, so no agent fees were involved. Canada in itself is no better a job market but for its proximity to the economic giant, it definitely looks like a good route. But, I never considered it seriously, the extreme weather being one of the reasons. Btw, if one moves to Canada on PR, how long does it take for him to be eligible for citizenship? Any idea? It's a wrong forum but just in case someone knows about it.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

sandeep.2014 said:


> A few things about US VISA's
> 
> L1B is not a pathway to perm residency in US, nor is H1B. Your employer needs to apply for the green card, which means potentially you are stuck with that employer or if you are changing jobs you need to find out an employer who is going to sponsor your GC or PERM Labour certification. In my opinion that severely limits your choice of getting a job that you like.
> 
> 189 is a self sponsored visa; where residency and citizenship is not dictated by an employer.


I guess most of us know about it. But on other hand, just imagine - with such a restrictive visa called H1B, if one gets so many better job opportunities (good salary and growth included) in the states than what he would get on a permanent visa called 189 or 190 in Aus, then the permanent visa loses its value in the practical sense though it definitely has more benefits on paper. This is my opinion though. I am not sure what others may think in this regard. I personally believe that until the age of 40, career and money are far more important for a person than stability. Migration to Gulf nations is a perfect example. People know that they will never get citizenship in those nations, but they still tend to go there for work since they get more money and of course progress in career. At the same time, some people decide to remain in their hometown in India with a stable job and peaceful life. They aren't wrong either. As people have mentioned, eventually it's a choice of an individual and depends on several factors such as family circumstances, education, ambition, financial situation, occupation, etc.


----------



## kk1234 (Sep 26, 2015)

kettlerope said:


> As people have mentioned, eventually it's a choice of an individual and depends on several factors such as family circumstances, education, ambition, financial situation, occupation, etc.


This part I totally agree. 

For instance I got in as an Engineer (thanks to my education and work ex) but if and when I move to Australia I will never work as an Engineer. I might change my career or buy a business. But all cannot do this.


----------



## 3br4h!m (Apr 4, 2015)

kettlerope said:


> I guess most of us know about it. But on other hand, just imagine - with such a restrictive visa called H1B, if one gets so many better job opportunities (good salary and growth included) in the states than what he would get on a permanent visa called 189 or 190 in Aus, then the permanent visa loses its value in the practical sense though it definitely has more benefits on paper. This is my opinion though. I am not sure what others may think in this regard. I personally believe that until the age of 40, career and money are far more important for a person than stability. Migration to Gulf nations is a perfect example. People know that they will never get citizenship in those nations, but they still tend to go there for work since they get more money and of course progress in career. At the same time, some people decide to remain in their hometown in India with a stable job and peaceful life. They aren't wrong either. As people have mentioned, eventually it's a choice of an individual and depends on several factors such as family circumstances, education, ambition, financial situation, occupation, etc.


Staying in India and choosing between Aus vs US is completely different.

If one chooses Aus over US he doesn't exactly choose 'stability', getting a job is equally, if not more, difficult in Australia. Sure, salaries are higher in US but not _significantly_ higher as you describe. A person moving from India to Aus will not make 2x to even 1.5x less than what he would've made in US. Besides, where a US person spends on transport, education, healthcare .. Aussie will be saving on those, so it all balances out in the end.


----------



## gaurav.kushan (Jun 11, 2015)

kettlerope said:


> I completely agree now when I look back. When I initiated the thought process some time in late 2013, I didn't know that Aus market could be THIS bad in terms of number of jobs, career growth and of course salaries. Anyway, I don't regret it so much though since the PR was still worth the cost if I wanted to actually move and I did the process myself, so no agent fees were involved. Canada in itself is no better a job market but for its proximity to the economic giant, it definitely looks like a good route. But, I never considered it seriously, the extreme weather being one of the reasons. Btw, if one moves to Canada on PR, how long does it take for him to be eligible for citizenship? Any idea? It's a wrong forum but just in case someone knows about it.


After being in for 4 years in Canada.


----------



## 3br4h!m (Apr 4, 2015)

kettlerope said:


> I completely agree now when I look back. When I initiated the thought process some time in late 2013, I didn't know that Aus market could be THIS bad in terms of number of jobs, career growth and of course salaries. Anyway, I don't regret it so much though since the PR was still worth the cost if I wanted to actually move and I did the process myself, so no agent fees were involved. Canada in itself is no better a job market but for its proximity to the economic giant, it definitely looks like a good route. But, I never considered it seriously, the extreme weather being one of the reasons. Btw, if one moves to Canada on PR, how long does it take for him to be eligible for citizenship? Any idea? It's a wrong forum but just in case someone knows about it.


4 years is the requirement, same as Australia I think, but in awful weather conditions. I also initially thought about it but quickly gave up only because of the horrible arctic climate.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

3br4h!m said:


> Staying in India and choosing between Aus vs US is completely different.
> 
> If one chooses Aus over US he doesn't exactly choose 'stability', getting a job is equally, if not more, difficult in Australia. Sure, salaries are higher in US but not _significantly_ higher as you describe. A person moving from India to Aus will not make 2x to even 1.5x less than what he would've made in US. Besides, where a US person spends on transport, education, healthcare .. Aussie will be saving on those, so it all balances out in the end.


Salaries in the US are way better in terms of absolute numbers. Every damn thing (cars, petrol, rent, electricity, groceries, electronics, houses, to say a few) is much cheaper. Tax slabs are a bit lower. All this, combined with stronger currency rate and higher purchasing power makes your saving worth much more than your saving in Aus. Insurance is paid by employers and public schools are free there as well. Fees in private ones are cheaper than Aus if you choose them.


----------



## MarissaAnna (Sep 27, 2014)

kettlerope, 
Just for the record;
What sort of annual salary would you be hoping to get in Australia? So we can get context.
Secondly, how much do you believe that public school and private schools cost here?
Thirdly, as you have indicated on other posts that you are in India, for how long have you actually lived in Australia? Have you lived in the US?


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

MarissaAnna said:


> kettlerope,
> Just for the record;
> What sort of annual salary would you be hoping to get in Australia? So we can get context.
> Secondly, how much do you believe that public school and private schools cost here?
> Thirdly, as you have indicated on other posts that you are in India, for how long have you actually lived in Australia? Have you lived in the US?


Hey Marissa,

I am in financial advisory field in India. Yes, I have worked in the US on a short assignment and was there for one year on L1 visa. I took leave in my current job and went to Australia to assess the job market and hunt a job. I stayed there for about 4 months but didn't find it encouraging, so decided to come back and continue my job. I was lucky that I could retain my Indian job and manage to get leave for Aus trip. Private school cost really varies from a city to city, but unfortunately most of the jobs are in bigger state capitals and private schools there happen to be obviously more expensive than say smaller towns. In context of American comparison, it is a bit different since in the US, you can find a well paid white collar job even in smaller cities and you don't necessarily have to live in say NY, Chicago, SF, or LA. For my field, salaries in Aus seem to be varying a lot depending on the size of the company, role, etc as expected in any country (starting from $50k to $130k). You will always find a company which pays its accounts manager $60k and another which pays its manager $120k (though much fewer such). From my research and experience, if I had to rate my concerns in descending order of importance, then here it goes: 1. Availability of expected positions (and feasibility to get them without a local exp) 2. Career growth 3. Salaries. Personally, I am willing to compromise on salary if future/ career growth is very promising. Young talent in India and the US today is joining start-ups in a huge numbers at lower salaries than what stable, traditional employers would pay since young graduates predict the career to skyrocket and salary to grow multifold in 3-5 years time when the start-up takes off (obviously with assessed risk). E-commerce and tech start-ups are the biggest example for this (iimjobs.com to be precise if it's about Indian jobs of such nature). I personally didn't come across such positions in Aus in a decent number where one can justify the compromise in his salary.


----------



## MarissaAnna (Sep 27, 2014)

Ok, that gives me some context because, to be frank, some of your information needs clarifying. I do not doubt what you say about availability of positions and salary.Your point about the many more positions being available in the US in smaller, cheaper cities is a very good one.
However, you would have had no need to study the history of education in Australia (I mean, why would you!!) What is relevant is that in Australia at least about 25% of the population have always been Catholic and it has been a Catholic obligation to send your children to Catholic schools if possible. As a result the Catholic system developed and in the past offered a private system with huge classes, not particularly good results but lowish fees. These days all private schools are partly government funded and the fees vary tremendously, as does the quality.
In NSW all the top end of school results are obtained by public selective schools and I can assure you that these schools are free. (any optional fees are indeed optional and all schools have funds to cover these for families who cannot afford them)
With healthcare, very good care can be obtained for lowish costs if you seek it. In fact my GP costs me nothing as she bulk bills but my husband chooses another one. My GP refers me to pathologists who also bulk bill whereas my husband runs up a bill for the same tests! His choice!
For people who do manage to get that elusive position (my son took four months to get one in IT after some years overseas) and who can manage to get into the capital city property market, this country can offer a positive experience.
But as was said by the PM this week, living here is not obligatory and for those it does not suit, there is a whole wide world out there.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

MarissaAnna said:


> But as was said by the PM this week, living here is not obligatory and for those it does not suit, there is a whole wide world out there.


This can be said for any country.


----------



## MarissaAnna (Sep 27, 2014)

Of course it was directed at newcomers who do have the option to leave. Most people in the world do not have the ability to legally change countries. You are very fortunate to be in a position to be able to cherrypick countries. I wish you well in your ambition to reconnect with the USA and look forward to reading your reflections on the USA forum.


----------



## docsunny50 (May 24, 2015)

kettlerope said:


> Salaries in the US are way better in terms of absolute numbers. Every damn thing (cars, petrol, rent, electricity, groceries, electronics, houses, to say a few) is much cheaper. Tax slabs are a bit lower. All this, combined with stronger currency rate and higher purchasing power makes your saving worth much more than your saving in Aus. Insurance is paid by employers and public schools are free there as well. Fees in private ones are cheaper than Aus if you choose them.


I seriously suggest not to respond to Kettlerope. While I do not want to make it personal, responding to him is like this:

You: detail and facts provided

Kettlerope: No, US is best. Whatever you say I will maintain the same but I will keep sucking oxygen off this topic.

You: Maybe consider... ( details and facts provided)

Kettlerope: No, US is best. Whatever you say I will maintain the same but I will keep sucking oxygen off this topic.


You get the point don't you. I am sure my post will not be the end of this moronic dialogue. Everyone knows the IT job market is better in the US. This will be the fact not just this year but for the next twenty years. That is why in my previous posts I have said don't come to OZ for just the job. However, I digress. My point of this post, is to point out the fallacy of responding to kettlerope especially considering the moderator does not want to close this topic.


----------



## kk1234 (Sep 26, 2015)

docsunny50 said:


> I seriously suggest not to respond to Kettlerope. While I do not want to make it personal, responding to him is like this: You: detail and facts provided Kettlerope: No, US is best. Whatever you say I will maintain the same but I will keep sucking oxygen off this topic. You: Maybe consider... ( details and facts provided) Kettlerope: No, US is best. Whatever you say I will maintain the same but I will keep sucking oxygen off this topic. You get the point don't you. I am sure my post will not be the end of this moronic dialogue. Everyone knows the IT job market is better in the US. This will be the fact not just this year but for the next twenty years. That is why in my previous posts I have said don't come to OZ for just the job. However, I digress. My point of this post, is to point out the fallacy of responding to kettlerope especially considering the moderator does not want to close this topic.


Hehe that was an interesting reply!

Humorous actually


----------



## ozbound12 (Mar 23, 2012)

docsunny50 said:


> I seriously suggest not to respond to Kettlerope. While I do not want to make it personal, responding to him is like this: You: detail and facts provided Kettlerope: No, US is best. Whatever you say I will maintain the same but I will keep sucking oxygen off this topic. You: Maybe consider... ( details and facts provided) Kettlerope: No, US is best. Whatever you say I will maintain the same but I will keep sucking oxygen off this topic. You get the point don't you. I am sure my post will not be the end of this moronic dialogue. Everyone knows the IT job market is better in the US. This will be the fact not just this year but for the next twenty years. That is why in my previous posts I have said don't come to OZ for just the job. However, I digress. My point of this post, is to point out the fallacy of responding to kettlerope especially considering the moderator does not want to close this topic.


LOL. So, so true. This thread became pointless about 5 pages ago.


----------



## kettlerope (Aug 12, 2014)

docsunny50 said:


> I seriously suggest not to respond to Kettlerope. While I do not want to make it personal, responding to him is like this:
> 
> You: detail and facts provided
> 
> ...


Can you point out anything wrong in my post to which you have posted this reply? Let's go FACTUALLY if you are so keen about it. Also, a lot of details you mentioned about healthcare (your own field) were factually wrong from the patient's perspective (refer to our early conversation on this thread). I wish you were fact and reality driven there. Your understanding of the criteria for closing the thread seems to have a mismatch with that of the moderators, at least as of now. Your comment about the moderation of thread was so uncalled for. No one has any obligation to participate in the discussion here. Everyone has been doing it out of his own interest - be them your supporters or others.


----------



## gurudev (Jan 15, 2013)

kettlerope said:


> Can you point out anything wrong in my post to which you have posted this reply? Let's go FACTUALLY if you are so keen about it. Also, a lot of details you mentioned about healthcare (your own field) were factually wrong from the patient's perspective (refer to our early conversation on this thread). I wish you were fact and reality driven there. Your understanding of the criteria for closing the thread seems to have a mismatch with that of the moderators, at least as of now. Your comment about the moderation of thread was so uncalled for. No one has any obligation to participate in the discussion here. Everyone has been doing it out of his own interest - be them your supporters or others.


It is so tempting to fall into this trap of responding to this thread &#55357;&#56833;&#55357;&#56833;

Please don't take it personally. Just because of the fact that you disagree with our doctor friend above does not mean he is wrong and you are "as always" right. 

We have other senior members corroborating these facts. And mind you they've been staying in Oz for way longer than the minuscule 4 months that you have stayed there. 

Every person has his own destiny and experiences. *<SNIP - personal comment>*

I'm sorry to be a bit direct but please take it in the right spirit. It's not between you VS. others but about a fact based, open minded discussion with mutual respect and a self awareness to acknowledge one's areas of improvement. 

I'm not going to respond any more to this thread.


----------



## 3br4h!m (Apr 4, 2015)

gurudev said:


> Every person has his own destiny and experiences. *<SNIP - as per previous post>*
> .



Spot on! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kaju (Oct 31, 2011)

Ok, we seem to be going in circles a bit now. 
*
I'll take this opportunity to remind you all that discussion of moderation in your posts is NOT acceptable. *

Do it again, (in any other threads) having now been warned, and you can expect an infraction to be awarded to you - here's the rules, and Rule 5 is the applicable one in this situation - http://www.expatforum.com/expats/general-expat-discussions/2397-forum-rules.html

Although I'm generally very open to letting threads run, I don't think much is to be gained keeping this thread open any further - although there are clearly differing opinions, (and to my mind that is a good thing) we seem to simply be rehashing them, and the conversation seems to be degenerating a little.

I'll close this thread with a parting note (I can do that, because I'm a moderator!   )

As a matter of common-sense, I'd urge those considering their options regarding migration to research fully whatever location they might be considering, and not solely rely on the experience of others. 

I'd also suggest they consider what they want to achieve from such a move on a long-term basis - the financial side, job prospects and benefits, of course - but also the quality of life, and perhaps where you want your children to grow up, the kind of society, attitudes and life-style you want for them, as well as you. 

Thank you all!


----------

