# Working for a UK company from Spain - Any shared experiences?



## OJW (Aug 2, 2021)

Hi there,

I am currently talking with my employer about working from home in Spain - the idea at the moment is to remain a UK resident and work out there for 90 days at a time, so more or less 3 months in Spain, then 3 months in the UK and so on. The reason for keeping things simple in this way is because my request is quite unique for my organisation and they have no previous experience of employees working overseas, so they are a little nervous about my proposal.

I'm interested to hear from anyone who has had a similar experience or has any info, so I can provide some reassurance to my employer. From my research so far I can't see any risk or additional work required of my employer to allow this to happen, as my residency status will not have changed. 

Many thanks in advance.


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## Folgueiras (Jul 29, 2021)

Hi OJW, 

I think one of the things you will have to keep an eye on is the number of days you will spend in each country because of tax reasons. The best is to get proper advice from a financial specialist. When I transferred from the UK to Spain, although I wasn't resident in Spain yet from a tax perspective, the advisory firm employed by my company asked me to mointor every single day in order to get an early warning in case I got close to the threshold. I know that if you spend more than 183 days in Spain, that automatically makes you a tax resident here and you would have to declare all your worldwide income to the Spanish tax authorities. But I do not know the details on the British side I'm afraid. 

Brexit might throw some further spanners in the works with specific visa applications, etc. But I think you can get a lot of information in this forum on that.

Wishing you all the best!


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## Matt92 (Aug 18, 2021)

OJW said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I am currently talking with my employer about working from home in Spain - the idea at the moment is to remain a UK resident and work out there for 90 days at a time, so more or less 3 months in Spain, then 3 months in the UK and so on. The reason for keeping things simple in this way is because my request is quite unique for my organisation and they have no previous experience of employees working overseas, so they are a little nervous about my proposal.
> 
> ...


Hi OJW,

Did you find anymore information on this? I am currently also looking to do the exact same thing.

cheers,
Matt


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## OJW (Aug 2, 2021)

Matt92 said:


> Hi OJW,
> 
> Did you find anymore information on this? I am currently also looking to do the exact same thing.
> 
> ...


Hi Matt, nothing yet - currently waiting for some more detail from my employer. If I do have any more info I'll add it here, likewise if you could let me know if you find anything out it would be appreciated.

All the best


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## sadlybroke (Jun 19, 2012)

I'm no expert but my understanding is that you may travel to Spain and spend up to 90 days there as a tourist. You are not allowed to work there, unless you have the correct visa, you are registered as a self-employed or Ltd company, pay taxes and social insurance, etc.


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## proud.to.be.EUROPEAN (Feb 14, 2020)

sadlybroke said:


> I'm no expert but my understanding is that you may travel to Spain and spend up to 90 days there as a tourist. You are not allowed to work there, unless you have the correct visa, you are registered as a self-employed or Ltd company, pay taxes and social insurance, etc.


That is very correct.
Going in/out every 3 months will be picked up by border guards, as it will look like smuggler pattern.
Also, I know that some countries, like USA, would not tolerate such movements, as pattern makes it like residence pattern.

If you get caught working illegally , you could be banned from EU!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I know plenty of people who come here to their second homes for two or three months at a time and continue working online for employers in their country of origin. Why would there be anything illegal or suspicious about that?


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## timwip (Feb 27, 2017)

Alcalaina said:


> I know plenty of people who come here to their second homes for two or three months at a time and continue working online for employers in their country of origin. Why would there be anything illegal or suspicious about that?


I agree. Before moving to Spain permanently about 3 years ago, I came in and out of Spain on average 2-3 times/year over a 35 year period and never got questioned.


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## Crawford (Jan 23, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> I know plenty of people who come here to their second homes for two or three months at a time and continue working online for employers in their country of origin. Why would there be anything illegal or suspicious about that?



Because the 90 days allowed to enter Spain (or indeed most European countries) with the privilege of not having to apply for a visa, is for *visitor status*. It does not allow working. The problem in today's society is that online working is practically impossible to track.
However, travelling back and forth so frequently would, one would have thought, raised the issue of 'how does this person support themselves if not be working?'
Certainly doing it from UK to US would raise the flag pretty quickly.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Crawford said:


> Because the 90 days allowed to enter Spain (or indeed most European countries) with the privilege of not having to apply for a visa, is for *visitor status*. It does not allow working. The problem in today's society is that online working is practically impossible to track.
> However, travelling back and forth so frequently would, one would have thought, raised the issue of 'how does this person support themselves if not be working?'
> Certainly doing it from UK to US would raise the flag pretty quickly.


So all those people on holiday who constantly check their work emails are technically breaking the law?


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## Do28 (Dec 21, 2010)

I have a similar issue, I asked elsewhere. I registered for residency in Spain as that was what the authorities told me to do here. But I don't work in Spain and am not a remote worker, I am a pilot and work world wide including the UK on contracts for my company. My wife is UK based and employed and meets me in Spain when I am off work but never exceed the 90/180 in fact generally only a month at a time. I spoke to Spanish accountants who have said until I pass 183 days in a year in Spain I am not required to register with the tax authorities and that residency is separate from tax residency. I have private health insurance for Spain as well. I don't really mind where I pay tax as someone has to to have it but just want to make sure I am not being given a miss steer. UK HMRC say that I am correctly paying tax in the UK due to the time I spend there and my domestic ties.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I think your only problem is that to retain your residency you can only be absent for a set period of time over your first 5 years. If you are absent for more than 6 months every year then technically you would lose your residency. That said if your wife is resident in UK and you pay tax there then I dont think Spain will make a claim for tax on your income if it all derived from UK and remains there. You may be investigated at some point and may it may be that they feel you are a tax resident ( check out Shakira who despite having residency in Barcelona has never paid tax in Spain. However, she is now in court trying to justify her actions by saying her principal home is in Barbados but it doesn't seem to be going to well)


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

kaipa said:


> You may be investigated at some point and may it may be that they feel you are a tax resident ( check out Shakira who despite having residency in Barcelona has never paid tax in Spain. However, she is now in court trying to justify her actions by saying her principal home is in Barbados but it doesn't seem to be going to well)


...and that's the issue.

If you are a registered resident of Spain, at some point the tax office will likely wonder why you haven't paid any income tax, at which point the onus would be on flybe to prove that he was indeed out of Spain for those periods.

That isn't the end of it though. Spain might still consider his centre of economic interest to be Spain. Proving it ISN'T, isn't easy.


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## Do28 (Dec 21, 2010)

kaipa said:


> I think your only problem is that to retain your residency you can only be absent for a set period of time over your first 5 years. If you are absent for more than 6 months every year then technically you would lose your residency. That said if your wife is resident in UK and you pay tax there then I dont think Spain will make a claim for tax on your income if it all derived from UK and remains there. You may be investigated at some point and may it may be that they feel you are a tax resident ( check out Shakira who despite having residency in Barcelona has never paid tax in Spain. However, she is now in court trying to justify her actions by saying her principal home is in Barbados but it doesn't seem to be going to well)


Funnily enough I did see the Shakira case which does seem like she has been taking the mick to say the least. It will be interesting to see the outcome of her case although my peanut and banana skin income is not equal to the paper the tax authorities would waste writing to me. However as a bit of a closet socialist I do believe that the taxes should be paid rather than seeking loopholes to avoid them. The residency is quite interesting especially under the article 50 and has quite wide allowances for being out of the country. I explained my situation to the immigration office when I went and registered and they clearly told me that registering was correct and that being out of the country for work would not effect the residency. If I gave up my apartment and left that would be a different matter. But tax domicile is taken totally separate from residency. Longer term when my wife is ready to make the move we will just relocate full time and be done with it. I still have to file US tax return for my green card so trying to keep the paperwork burden low!

From what I can see even if I do become domiciled in Spain for tax my salary would still be taxed in the UK as earned outside Spain physically and then subject to the double taxation treaty and then any difference paid in Spain if there was extra due. So probably peanuts if anything as I am not exactly Mick Jagger!!!

Does that seem right or am I missing something essential?


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Technically if you are a resident you will be investigated at some point if you haven't submitted tax forms for Spain. The source of the income is irrelevant. You can still be taxed in Spain. Your problem is that you cant be claiming residency in two countries. If you are paying tax on your income in UK then you should have the UK as your place of residency which you would declare on your tax declaration and also at your bank. You cant then go and claim residency in Spain and deny that you have no fiscal responsibility there. Basically, I understand your dilemma but you are getting a good deal as UK tax is lower than Spain. The only real way to know what is what is to phone the hacienda and explain the situation and they will advise you.
People often quote the line about residency and tax being separate and point to the ambiguity in the laws but the fact is that in order to submit a UK tax declaration there is a section that asks for your country of residence for the particular tax year. If you have Spanish residency you must say that and then you will be directed to an extra page where details of address etc are required. If you say UK then , of course you are committing an offence and can be fined. The same applies to any UK bank account- you legally need to inform them of your country of residence as this allows them to provide information if asked from both HMRC and the Hacienda. In otherwords you should be going through the double taxation agreement between Spain and UK and this is again indicated on a section of your declaration part of the UK self assessment form.


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## proud.to.be.EUROPEAN (Feb 14, 2020)

flybe said:


> Funnily enough I did see the Shakira case which does seem like she has been taking the mick to say the least. It will be interesting to see the outcome of her case although my peanut and banana skin income is not equal to the paper the tax authorities would waste writing to me. However as a bit of a closet socialist I do believe that the taxes should be paid rather than seeking loopholes to avoid them. The residency is quite interesting especially under the article 50 and has quite wide allowances for being out of the country. I explained my situation to the immigration office when I went and registered and they clearly told me that registering was correct and that being out of the country for work would not effect the residency. If I gave up my apartment and left that would be a different matter. But tax domicile is taken totally separate from residency. Longer term when my wife is ready to make the move we will just relocate full time and be done with it. I still have to file US tax return for my green card so trying to keep the paperwork burden low!
> 
> From what I can see even if I do become domiciled in Spain for tax my salary would still be taxed in the UK as earned outside Spain physically and then subject to the double taxation treaty and then any difference paid in Spain if there was extra due. So probably peanuts if anything as I am not exactly Mick Jagger!!!
> 
> Does that seem right or am I missing something essential?


I have feeling you're too much focused on earnings/wages tax.
Tax is not limited to just that, it captures everything else, i.e. property, shares, pension, etc.
Failing to declare all your worldwide assets to ES taxman can get you in trouble.

As for residency absence, I think you're right. You're allowed to return to native country to work, but not sure for how long.


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## Do28 (Dec 21, 2010)

kaipa said:


> Technically if you are a resident you will be investigated at some point if you haven't submitted tax forms for Spain. The source of the income is irrelevant. You can still be taxed in Spain. Your problem is that you cant be claiming residency in two countries. If you are paying tax on your income in UK then you should have the UK as your place of residency which you would declare on your tax declaration and also at your bank. You cant then go and claim residency in Spain and deny that you have no fiscal responsibility there. Basically, I understand your dilemma but you are getting a good deal as UK tax is lower than Spain. The only real way to know what is what is to phone the hacienda and explain the situation and they will advise you.
> People often quote the line about residency and tax being separate and point to the ambiguity in the laws but the fact is that in order to submit a UK tax declaration there is a section that asks for your country of residence for the particular tax year. If you have Spanish residency you must say that and then you will be directed to an extra page where details of address etc are required. If you say UK then , of course you are committing an offence and can be fined. The same applies to any UK bank account- you legally need to inform them of your country of residence as this allows them to provide information if asked from both HMRC and the Hacienda. In otherwords you should be going through the double taxation agreement between Spain and UK and this is again indicated on a section of your declaration part of the UK self assessment form.


I have tried to call the hacienda with no luck at the moment in getting anyway to respond to my question. I don't do UK tax returns now as I am not required to do them as I am basic PAYE and have nothing more to report. Like I said I am not Mick Jagger! If I have to pay tax in Spain it does not bother me either as on my pittance it will make little difference in extra tax. I am really just trying to understand what the best options are and whether I should just get the company to give me an NT code and pay in Spain or whether it is subject to double taxation treaty and I would pay any difference. As I said I am not bothered about where I pay tax and am certainly not going to get hit by wealth tax etc. The only thing that would effect me in a Small way would be giving up my ISA as I understand if I was a Spanish tax payer I can't continue paying into it and if there were any returns over the exemptions I would be liable tax. But otherwise I have a really simple tax position from an income and assets perspective.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I think things depend on how long you have had your Spanish residency. If this is your first year it wont amount to much of a problem . If you have had residency for longer and never registered with the Hacienda you will need to come clean and let them normalise your situation so as to allow you to submit declarations in the future. They are usually pretty good at doing all this in a fair way so I wouldn't worry


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## Do28 (Dec 21, 2010)

kaipa said:


> I think things depend on how long you have had your Spanish residency. If this is your first year it wont amount to much of a problem . If you have had residency for longer and never registered with the Hacienda you will need to come clean and let them normalise your situation so as to allow you to submit declarations in the future. They are usually pretty good at doing all this in a fair way so I wouldn't worry


This is only my second month and I will not have been in Spain this year over the 183 days so nothing to tidy up at this point. I was working on prevention rather than cure by asking advice before I make mistakes rather than looking for a fix later! Although we have still not actually got anywhere near an answer....  Accountant says no need to register at this stage but I have nagging doubts.....


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## Do28 (Dec 21, 2010)

proud.to.be.EUROPEAN said:


> I have feeling you're too much focused on earnings/wages tax.
> Tax is not limited to just that, it captures everything else, i.e. property, shares, pension, etc.
> Failing to declare all your worldwide assets to ES taxman can get you in trouble.
> 
> As for residency absence, I think you're right. You're allowed to return to native country to work, but not sure for how long.


LOL, no, I am only focused on them because its all I have!! I did say I was no Mick Jagger!!! my "worldwide assets" don't come even close to being worth anything! If I had enough to be hit by the Spanish wealth tax I would be happy to pay! As it is unless I win the lottery I am very slim pickings! So perfectly happy to declare what I have. My biggest asset like any other poor Yorkshireman is the house co owned with the wife. We don't let it out so no rental income and no plans to sell anytime in the next decade or so. Other than that some savings and an ISA. Oh and the dog....

As I said I have no problem with paying anything thats due, its just trying to understand what is actually due and to who. HMRC tell me I am correct, Spanish account says I am right little niggle in my head wanting to stay on the right side of the rules needs something more to convince me!!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

flybe said:


> LOL, no, I am only focused on them because its all I have!! I did say I was no Mick Jagger!!! my "worldwide assets" don't come even close to being worth anything! If I had enough to be hit by the Spanish wealth tax I would be happy to pay! As it is unless I win the lottery I am very slim pickings! So perfectly happy to declare what I have. My biggest asset like any other poor Yorkshireman is the house co owned with the wife. We don't let it out so no rental income and no plans to sell anytime in the next decade or so. Other than that some savings and an ISA. Oh and the dog....
> 
> As I said I have no problem with paying anything thats due, its just trying to understand what is actually due and to who. HMRC tell me I am correct, Spanish account says I am right little niggle in my head wanting to stay on the right side of the rules needs something more to convince me!!


As a resident of Spain there's an imputed tax on any property in which you don't live - so that would be the property in the UK. 

You should also declare that asset (assuming it's worth more than 50k) in the annual asset declaration. 

I know that you consider that you are not tax resident, but Hacienda might well consider that to be the case, since you seem to spend all your 'off work' time here, regardless of where your wife lives, where the property that you own is, & where the company for which you work is based.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

You dont say what nationality you are. If you are a EU member then you have right to work on your residency 
If UK then you would have had to have a visa


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I just read your first post and I am making an assumption your are a UK passport holder solely. From what you have said it sounds like you just set yourself up in Spain as a non working resident- assuming that as your income is derived in UK and you pay SS there you have no need to declare anything in Spain. If this is the case you are going to alot of problems. If you are a EU holder you have a right to work but need to still register with hacienda. If UK , then how did you get residency without a work Visa and all the red-tape that your company would have set up vis avis tax and SS?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

kaipa said:


> I just read your first post and I am making an assumption your are a UK passport holder solely. From what you have said it sounds like you just set yourself up in Spain as a non working resident- assuming that as your income is derived in UK and you pay SS there you have no need to declare anything in Spain. If this is the case you are going to alot of problems. If you are a EU holder you have a right to work but need to still register with hacienda.  If UK , then how did you get residency without a work Visa and all the red-tape that your company would have set up vis avis tax and SS?


He may well have been here for some time, ie since before Brexit.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

xabiaxica said:


> He may well have been here for some time, ie since before Brexit.


He says this is his second month-


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

kaipa said:


> He says this is his second month-


I totally missed that! 

In that case the plot thickens...unless he has an EU passport. 

However, if he's never here for anything like 90/180, it begs the question as to why he's registered as resident at all... even if he is an EU citizen.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I think he must have used an existing pre-brexit residency because it could not happen under a 3rd country visa( his tax and SS would have been set up for the visa. If pre-brexit then I dont understand what he means by registered . He has residency? He has applied for residency which he should have had? He has a TIE? It all sounds a little bit vague and to be honest wouldn't the company provide information about this as so many crews must live and work in 2 countries?


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## Do28 (Dec 21, 2010)

kaipa said:


> I think he must have used an existing pre-brexit residency because it could not happen under a 3rd country visa( his tax and SS would have been set up for the visa. If pre-brexit then I dont understand what he means by registered . He has residency? He has applied for residency which he should have had? He has a TIE? It all sounds a little bit vague and to be honest wouldn't the company provide information about this as so many crews must live and work in 2 countries?


Sorry if I was vague. I am British. With a U.K. passport. I have been in Spain since 2008. Went to the US for a few years for wife’s job which we got a green card. Came back to the U.K./Spain on her company returning us. I prefer Spain to the U.K. for obvious reasons and the strongest being anti Brexit.

With freedom of movement there was never any need to register in Spain as my work pattern meant I was never here longer than 183 days. I was advised literally at the 11th hour to get an NIE and register under the article 50 withdrawal agreement which I duly did in July and have an NIE and a TIE and the 5 year residency granting me residence and work.

So I now find myself at a crossroads in do I become a domiciled tax payer in Spain or do I continue on the way I have always done it. If I become domiciled I will still be an employee of a U.K. company as I can’t be an autonomous self employed person in my job. So I am trying to solicit advice from anyone who may be in the same position and can offer a bit of perspective on how they have done it.
I have no issue on paying tax wherever it’s due and in terms of assets I have nothing that to declare that will cost me much if anything all looking at the scales for where I am in spain. 

The company have suggested I could go for TN0 tax code. HMRC are saying I pay tax where it’s earned which is far they are concerned would be the UK.

I am not after dodging any tax liability anywhere so just need a bit of guidance.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

If you have never had a NIE until now how could you have residence since 2008? Also if your TIE is 5 years it means you were not resident until earliest 2015. Anyway that is not really the issue. You asked what you should do and the answer is: You will need to declare this year jan- dec 2021 as you are a resident in the tax year. You will be subject to the double taxation agreement and that will be dealt with by HMRC but you will need a good international accountant to help. Your company will set up an Spanish SS system. You may well be investigated for years you were resident but not making a declaration but by the sounds of it you have, unbeknown to yourself, been under the radar. If you however dont declare thiz year the Hacienda will definitely send the black letter and then look at previous years- so best not to try and avoid it.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

flybe said:


> Sorry if I was vague. I am British. With a U.K. passport. I have been in Spain since 2008. Went to the US for a few years for wife’s job which we got a green card. Came back to the U.K./Spain on her company returning us. I prefer Spain to the U.K. for obvious reasons and the strongest being anti Brexit.
> 
> With freedom of movement there was never any need to register in Spain as my work pattern meant I was never here longer than 183 days. I was advised literally at the 11th hour to get an NIE and register under the article 50 withdrawal agreement which I duly did in July and have an NIE and a TIE and the 5 year residency granting me residence and work.
> 
> ...


Paying tax where it is earned doesn't necessarily mean that there's no tax liability where you live. If allowances are lower in Spain - as I believe they are - there's still some tax to pay. You don't pay the same twice, but what you pay in the UK would be deducted from your liability here.


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## Do28 (Dec 21, 2010)

xabiaxica said:


> Paying tax where it is earned doesn't necessarily mean that there's no tax liability where you live. If allowances are lower in Spain - as I believe they are - there's still some tax to pay. You don't pay the same twice, but what you pay in the UK would be deducted from your liability here.


Yes, I understand that..... hence the reason why I am asking. At no no point have I suggested otherwise, what I actually want is someone in the same position to say what they have done to deal with it!!!!!!!!


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## Do28 (Dec 21, 2010)

kaipa said:


> If you have never had a NIE until now how could you have residence since 2008? Also if your TIE is 5 years it means you were not resident until earliest 2015. Anyway that is not really the issue. You asked what you should do and the answer is: You will need to declare this year jan- dec 2021 as you are a resident in the tax year. You will be subject to the double taxation agreement and that will be dealt with by HMRC but you will need a good international accountant to help. Your company will set up an Spanish SS system. You may well be investigated for years you were resident but not making a declaration but by the sounds of it you have, unbeknown to yourself, been under the radar. If you however dont declare thiz year the Hacienda will definitely send the black letter and then look at previous years- so best not to try and avoid it.


I have not been "under the radar" at any time thank you. I have never spent more than 183 days a year in Spain and I have never worked in Spain. I also spent 6 years in the US. I returned to Spain after that, never spending more than 183 days a year here. However now I am here and have registered under the article 50 agreement for residency to allow me to stay in Spain as long as I want I realise there will be tax implications for becoming domicile. I work for a UK company and that will remain so I need to understand how I will pay any tax due in Spain.

I find it a little insulting that you are trying to insinuate I have been some sort of tax dodger to be honest. This is going to be my first year as a "resident" and I am trying to make sure that I do everything right.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Okay I have re-read your posts. You are confusing certain things. You have been basically living in Spain as a tourist on and off for 12 years! You have never been a resident until this year. However, somewhere along the line you must have had an NIE number ( you also must have signed on the padron etc because you couldn't have made a claim under the WA unless you proved you had been here) also I cant understand how you could operate without a Spanish bank account- how do you pay your facturas?. Anyway that is your business. The situation now is that you inform your UK bank you are no longer a resident. You also inform HMRC who will zero tax code you and inform your employer. Your SS contributions will stop and your company will need to set up a system where they make your Spanish SS contributions. You then get an accountant in Spain to fill out a modelo 13? ( not sure the number) to register as a Spanish tax payer and a 720 to declare foreign assests worth over 50 000 euros. You declare your gross for Jan-dec 2021 as this is the year you got residency and the 183 rule only applies if you were a non resident. That is it


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

flybe said:


> I am a pilot and work world wide including the UK on contracts for my company.


The WA contains specific provisions for aircrew and certain other groups of itinerate workers.

If you do indeed hold a permanent TIE then you are Spanish tax resident with all that implies.


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## Do28 (Dec 21, 2010)

kaipa said:


> You said you have been resident in spain since 2008 that means you should have registered with the hacienda and have informed HMRC that you were not resident in UK. The UK would have then have zero taxed coded you. How do you pay your various facturas, car, IBI without a Spanish bank account? You say you only just t got an NIE !.


I said I have been in Spain since 2008 not resident in Spain since 2008. Do you actually read what people write before you respond? Until Brexit I could come and go as I wished and as long as I did not exceed 183 days I was not a tax resident in Spain. Since Brexit I decided I wanted to spend more time here. I applied for a non lucrative visa and was told I was eligible under the withdrawal agreement to apply for residency which I did at the last moment. So I got an NIE and subsequently a TIE granted residency until June 2026 initially. I have never needed a Spanish bank account, my bank pays into Spain just fine. I have paid any taxes due like anyone else by printing out the forms and going to the bank. I don't own a car.

So back to the original question, is there anyone else in my position who is working in Spain for a UK company that is NOT a remote worker, ie someone who commutes out of Spain to do the job able to tell me what they have done to make sure they are legal for both the UK and for Spain.

I don't need all the tax dodger comments or suggestions that I have somehow been here in the black market. I need someone who has done the same thing that can give me some personal experience of how they dealt with it and any contacts that might help me deal with making sure I stay legal now I have gained residency.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I do read your posts but your understanding of the laws means you are confused. You were never allowed to be in Spain for more than 90 not 183 days without registering for residency. So it is very difficult to know what you mean. Anyway you are now a resident of Spain so you pay your tax here. It is simple.


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## Do28 (Dec 21, 2010)

kaipa said:


> I do read your posts but your understanding of the laws means you are confused. You were never allowed to be in Spain for more than 90 not 183 days without registering for residency. So it is very difficult to know what you mean. Anyway you are now a resident of Spain so you pay your tax here. It is simple.


I am fully aware of the Schengen 90/180 and of the total of 183 days in a year restrictions. If you read back to the start where I explained what I do for a living you would understand it. I have legally been able to be in Spain for years without registering for anything as I was not in the country for more than 183 days and not exceeding the 90/180 days. I have however have had a "presence" here for a long time in the form of my house and aside from the years in the US have preferred to be in Spain rather than the UK. I want to spend more time here over the 90/180 so I applied for a visa. When I went to the embassy and presented all the paperwork they suggested I actually apply for residence based on the WA. I did so and and as you can see from the TIE I was granted it. I realise that this will make me a Spanish resident once I pass 183 days in the country and as such I will be liable for Spanish taxes. This was never in doubt. What I need to understand is how as the employee of a UK company that works outside of spain doing a physical job outside of Spain rather than a keyboard warrior job I will need to deal with my taxes going forward. As I have stated a number of times UK HMRC are of the opinion that as my work is done largely in the UK I pay tax in the UK. The Spanish will no doubt see me due to pay tax in Spain so how do I deal with that, is it covered on double taxation agreements with me paying in difference or is there something different? To be clear, I won't be working for my company in Spain, I will be coming to the Uk and working for them in the UK and on world wide contracts. When I finish work I will return to Spain and go kite surfing and cycling until my next duty cycle.

So I am not asking how to avoid tax, I am asking how to PAY tax in my situation........


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

flybe said:


> I am fully aware of the Schengen 90/180 and of the total of 183 days in a year restrictions. If you read back to the start where I explained what I do for a living you would understand it. I have legally been able to be in Spain for years without registering for anything as I was not in the country for more than 183 days and not exceeding the 90/180 days. I have however have had a "presence" here for a long time in the form of my house and aside from the years in the US have preferred to be in Spain rather than the UK. I want to spend more time here over the 90/180 so I applied for a visa. When I went to the embassy and presented all the paperwork they suggested I actually apply for residence based on the WA. I did so and and as you can see from the TIE I was granted it. I realise that this will make me a Spanish resident once I pass 183 days in the country and as such I will be liable for Spanish taxes. This was never in doubt. What I need to understand is how as the employee of a UK company that works outside of spain doing a physical job outside of Spain rather than a keyboard warrior job I will need to deal with my taxes going forward. As I have stated a number of times UK HMRC are of the opinion that as my work is done largely in the UK I pay tax in the UK. The Spanish will no doubt see me due to pay tax in Spain so how do I deal with that, is it covered on double taxation agreements with me paying in difference or is there something different? To be clear, I won't be working for my company in Spain, I will be coming to the Uk and working for them in the UK and on world wide contracts. When I finish work I will return to Spain and go kite surfing and cycling until my next duty cycle.
> 
> So I am not asking how to avoid tax, I am asking how to PAY tax in my situation........


OK

Having a TIE issued under the WA - a 'temporary' 5 year one, does come with one particular codition which affects your tax situation.

That condition is that you spend a minimum of 6 months per year in Spain, that is, more time in the country than out of it.

If you don't, your right to residence can be revoked.

By default, if you have a TIE, you must become tax resident.

You pay tax simply by submitting a tax return.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I realise that this will make me a Spanish resident once I pass 183 days in the country and as such I will be liable for Spanish taxes. ( QUOTE)

I am sorry but you are getting things confused. You became a resident the minute you got your TIE not after 183 more days. You are a tax resident in Spain now and that means you declare for this year in April 2022.


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## Do28 (Dec 21, 2010)

kaipa said:


> I realise that this will make me a Spanish resident once I pass 183 days in the country and as such I will be liable for Spanish taxes. ( QUOTE)
> 
> I am sorry but you are getting things confused. You became a resident the minute you got your TIE not after 183 more days. You are a tax resident in Spain now and that means you declare for this year in April 2022.


Actually incorrect, I could leave Spain now before the 183 was up and not be a tax resident. That would however mean abandoning my WA TIE so we are discussing semantics but I get your point.

However it does not answer my question still!! You still seem to think that I don't think I have a tax liability or that I don't want to pay tax in Spain...

Is there anybody who can actually answer my question who works in the same or a similar way, ie works outside of Spain physically not virtually and is employed by an overseas company on payroll. How do you pay any taxes due in Spain as they will neither be employed or autonimo in Spain. 

I do have private health insurance for Spain as I am not eligible to buy into the social system until I have been here a year and it was a requirement of the TIE. I will keep it anyway as at 65 a month its a very good deal.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

flybe said:


> Actually incorrect, I could leave Spain now before the 183 was up and not be a tax resident.  That would however mean abandoning my WA TIE so we are discussing semantics but I get your point.
> 
> However it does not answer my question still!! You still seem to think that I don't think I have a tax liability or that I don't want to pay tax in Spain...
> 
> ...


Just to add one more point. The 183 tax deadline is the last date at which you will be allowed to be non-tax resident. What I mean is, due to your circumstances, you probably qualify as a tax resident way before that point. If your centre of fiscal interests (home etc.) are in Spain, then you are tax resident in Spain.

You have to declare your worldwide income and pay tax on it in Spain - simples.


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## Do28 (Dec 21, 2010)

snikpoh said:


> Just to add one more point. The 183 tax deadline is the last date at which you will be allowed to be non-tax resident. What I mean is, due to your circumstances, you probably qualify as a tax resident way before that point. If your centre of fiscal interests (home etc.) are in Spain, then you are tax resident in Spain.
> 
> You have to declare your worldwide income and pay tax on it in Spain - simples.


None of my fiscal interests are currently in Spain, neither is my wife and she will not not be changing that for the foreseeable future as she is the Director to a FTSE company. 

It does not actually matter to me when I become tax resident just what my liability is andhow I pay the tax in my scenario. I have just had the same answer in multiple responses with no actual response from anyone in my position that has actually done it!!!! Am I covered by the double taxation treaty and have to pay any difference as its income earned and taxed outside of Spain or do I have to get my company to do a TN0 for UK HMRC and then do I pay it all in Spain. 

I understand the world wide assets declaration as have already checked all of that and I have no liability on them as they are beneath all the allowances. Its my salary that I am specifically trying to get an understanding on.

So to be absolutely clear again. I am not remote working for a non Spanish company. I am leaving Spain to do a physical job overseas. I am being taxed in that country namely the UK for the work performed in that country at source on PAYE. I understand that as a Spanish resident I am liable to pay tax on my world wide income but the question is does anyone actually know how and what?


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I have just deleted this last post. I agree that we are getting lost due to different understanding of meanings. You say above that you have read about world wide assets and that you have no liability and it is not clear whether you mean you have no foreign assests outside of Spain or you mean something else. Most people have a property or savings in UK which is why I am questioning this . Anyway the most simple answer to your initial question would be to phone HMRC and tell them you do not reside in UK then tell your company. Surely they can both shine some light on the issue?


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## Do28 (Dec 21, 2010)

kaipa said:


> I have just deleted this last post. I agree that we are getting lost due to different understanding of meanings. You say above that you have read about world wide assets and that you have no liability and it is not clear whether you mean you have no foreign assests outside of Spain or you mean something else. Most people have a property or savings in UK which is why I am questioning this . Anyway the most simple answer to your initial question would be to phone HMRC and tell them you do not reside in UK then tell your company. Surely they can both shine some light on the issue?


I am aware of having to declare world wide assets, the tax advisor already told me this. I have been told what the current allowances are before you are required to pay tax on these assets and my few meagre assets are covered by the allowances so I have no tax liability on them. I have to make a first year declaration of all my assets which is fine. I have no tax liability in Spain on them as they are not enough to qualify. I hope that clears that up.

I have phoned HMRC and there stance was that I pay tax in the UK on money physically earned there. They also told me it is perfectly possible to be domiciled for tax purposes in both the UK and Spain because I have a connection to the UK in the form of my house, car, wife and dog!! I work in the UK doing a physical job that can in no way be done virtually. It is not as simple as people are portraying it when you truly are split between domiciles. 

My employer are basically happy to go with whatever is required. But trying to get a straight answer from anyone seems to be like trying to catch a snake by the tail.

The answer I want to know is how do I account for my salary. I don't any any advice on the rest of that as I have already been given appropriate advice. Is it likely to be a TN0 code and I just pay tax at the end of the year in the income or is it subject to dual taxation and I pay any possible extra that the Spanish require?

Is that a clear explanation of my position?


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

TBH I have no idea now. If HMRC says you pay tax in UK on your income as that is where it is earned and your centre of financial interests is UK then just do that...and dont bother declaring in Spain and just carry on as normal


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## Do28 (Dec 21, 2010)

kaipa said:


> TBH I have no idea now. If HMRC says you pay tax in UK on your income as that is where it is earned and your centre of financial interests is UK then just do that...and dont bother declaring in Spain and just carry on as normal


LOL, welcome to my world...... 

thanks.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

flybe said:


> LOL, welcome to my world......
> 
> thanks.


Which is fine until Hacienda decides that you owe them money...

Just go to the nearest tax office in Spain & tell them the situation.

They will even help you fill in the tax forms when the time comes.


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## Do28 (Dec 21, 2010)

xabiaxica said:


> Which is fine until Hacienda decides that you owe them money...
> 
> Just go to the nearest tax office in Spain & tell them the situation.
> 
> They will even help you fill in the tax forms when the time comes.


Thats what I intend on doing in due course, however I was asking the question to see if anyone else was in the same situation and therefore could give me some feedback on what they found. Clearly not........


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

flybe said:


> Thats what I intend on doing in due course, however I was asking the question to see if anyone else was in the same situation and therefore could give me some feedback on what they found. Clearly not........


Clearly not but it really is simple (I think).

You complete a Spanish tax return and declare any tax paid elsewhere. This is then offset against tax owed in Spain.


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## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

flybe said:


> Thats what I intend on doing in due course, however I was asking the question to see if anyone else was in the same situation and therefore could give me some feedback on what they found. Clearly not........


My situation was similar but different so here goes.

I planned to return to the Uk to contract for my previous employer (and contract overseas as well for them). 
The plan was for them to pay me with Uk tax (as a worker in the Uk for a Uk company) taken but as a non UK resident no NI. (I've already done 42 years so don't need anymore for my Uk OAP). 
At tax time here in Spain I would file showing Uk tax paid and then just pay the difference owed here (didn't want to get involved with Autonomo etc) as I would only be working maybe 16 weeks a year outside Spain (I have no income here in Spain except my private pension, which I was going to stop taking while I continued to work *keep the tax down).

This was confirmed by the firm who have done our non resident taxes previously and by the tax man here. I have been resident here now for just under a year.

Its a complex system and you might be better off talking to a financial advisor here or even phone the tax office in your area.

Due to covid etc I have as yet not worked so I can't confirm that what I said would happen.


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## Do28 (Dec 21, 2010)

An update.... I have just returned from the tax office and asked advice on my situation. Firstly the case of residency, you do not become a tax resident the moment you are granted residency. The 183 days still counts. I was granted residency on the 1st July and the clock starts ticking from that date. Once I pass 183 days as a resident I enter the Spanish tax system. As that will not occur in this fiscal year I am not required to file a tax return for 2021. In 2022 I will become tax resident and the normal filing for that year will apply. At that point I will have to also complete a Modal 300 I think it was declaring my world wide assets. As they do not exceed €700k and my property share does not exceed €300k I have no tax to pay.

Now for the PAYE, as my work is physically carried out in the UK I will be expected to pay tax in the UK and because I meet more than one criteria of the double taxation agreement between the UK and Spain. I will declare the income on my Spanish tax return and be required to pay any difference between was has been paid in the UK and what has been paid in Spain. I also have to provide paperwork from the Spanish tax office to the UK tax office showing I am registered in Spain.

I am not required to make social security payments as I am not working in Spain however should I choose to I can voluntarily make them however I am not allowed to for the first year and must have private health insurance (which I have) for the first year or if I decide not to make voluntary contributions in the future. In the UK my company will continue to pay tax and NI on my payroll.

Should I start working remotely for my company then I can request a notification to HMRC from the Spanish tax office to have a TN0 tax code assigned and pay all of the tax in Spain. But that requires me to meet other elements of the tax treaty which at this stage I will not pass as despite being a Spanish resident my centre of interest would still be classed as the UK as that is where my wife lives, my primary home and car etc. It is perfectly possible to be a tax domicile in BOTH countries simultaneously and that is where the "tests" of the tax treaty come into play. Its well worth a read actually!

Should I become TN0 then I will pay income tax in Spain and my company will pay NI in the UK for 2 years and will issue a certificate to the Spanish should I request it that will cover social security contributions for 2 years in Spain before I can then voluntarily pay them or continue with private health insurance.

If I choose not to make voluntary contributions to Spanish SS I will not be entitled to health care or pension benefits and will be required to continue with private health cover. In the UK if I want to keep my NI going for future pension benefits the I will pay the voluntary £800 a year.

If I choose to take up a part time job here in Spain then the company will put me on the payroll and tax will be deducted locally along with SS. In the UK I will declare it on my UK tax return and again its subject to the double taxation rules and as Spain has a slightly higher tax rate there will be nothing to pay in theory.

I discovered that the tax office is actually about 100m from my house and I just walked in which felt a bit weird having learnt the Spanish fetish for making appointments on line but they were helpful and the lady I spoke to spoke perfect English which was a real bonus.

So there you go, you can be a tax domicile in 2 countries at the same time and your tax domicile is disconnected from your residency.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I am impressed. Where I am it takes ages to get a cita previa and my Spanish is not good enough to deal in detail with the complexities of that level of tax enquiry.! Still it answers all the questions we were discussing last week. Well done

Never knew you could make voluntary contributions to SS if you had never worked in Spain. Does that mean you get Paro if you become unemployed in UK? Seems like a great deal.


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## Do28 (Dec 21, 2010)

kaipa said:


> I am impressed. Where I am it takes ages to get a cita previa and my Spanish is not good enough to deal in detail with the complexities of that level of tax enquiry.! Still it answers all the questions we were discussing last week. Well done
> 
> Never knew you could make voluntary contributions to SS if you had never worked in Spain. Does that mean you get Paro if you become unemployed in UK? Seems like a great deal.


If you do not pay into the SS you are entitled to nothing from it. If you are not working in Spain you can't become unemployed in Spain. Thats a risk people need to take into account. However if you make the SS payments I would assume that you are entitled to whatever the SS benefits are. It was not a question I asked to be honest as it does not effect me.


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