# Buying in Spain



## Praguer (Oct 23, 2014)

I do not know if it is appropriate here, but I am looking for an advice on buying a home in Spain. Of course, I looked at all the advertisements, but the first thing which strikes me is that a similar properties are listed at a wide range of prices. For example a 3bdm 2 bath place can be found between 90K eur to 250K eur. Is it all location based pricing?

Would it be best to find a real estate agent? What is their motivation? How can I ensure that I am getting a good service and a good price (not a foresail, just a fair deal).

We are a retired Canadian-Czech couple and want a snowbird place in Spain. Not looking for a flip but a long term ownership. Any advice?


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

The pricing is based more on a wing and a prayer than anything else. Some locations may be higher but then that is normal.

It is best to come over and do your searching yourselves and it will include coming up against many real estate agents.
The agents themselves? 
Well there are a few good ones around but their motivation is still only their commission. The rest of them are, well, lets just say less than honest and it is best to research a property yourself and not pay attention to a word the agent says.

The best way is to understand a little bit of the system and the way property works here, find out how best to identify a legal property, a rustic/urban property yourself. There are some tactics you can use but unless you are entirely comfortable with Spanish language and the way property works here the best advice I can give is to use a lawyer.


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## Praguer (Oct 23, 2014)

Thank you very much for your response. . I am going to Spain for 4 weeks and I already have a lawyer. I do not speak Spanish but I am not in a rush either.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Praguer said:


> Thank you very much for your response. . I am going to Spain for 4 weeks and I already have a lawyer. I do not speak Spanish but I am not in a rush either.


You might not be in a rush now but things may change after you spend time in Spain.
I lived in Prague for three years, after frequent visits for over forty years. A few weeks in Spain and I never wanted to go back!


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## Praguer (Oct 23, 2014)

Tell me more, please ...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Praguer said:


> Tell me more, please ...


I started visiting Prague in the mid 1960s as a student after meeting a Czech student in London. We became friends, still are over forty years later. I made regular visits and actually made a miniscule contribution to the Velvet Revolution in 1989, by supplying agit-prop for my friend's students to distribute. Later I spoke at a OF meeting and in the Czech Parliament during debates on the Constitution in 1990. 
My partner and I moved for good (as I thought) in 2005 and lived first in Roztoly u Prahy a Prague dormitory village to the north-west of the capital and a year later to a large villa in Cerny Vul, a fly-blown hamlet ten minutes drive from Dejvice and the airport.
The first year was great. I taught English to senior civil servants at the CSU (Czech Statistical Institute) and generally had a great time. But I think it was just the contrast between pressure of work in the UK and relaxed retirement in what is a beautiful city. But gradually, the poor quality of everyday life and the closed mentality began to wear us down. My partner is vegetarian which made life even more difficult. I used to commute weekly to the UK so was able to bring back Quorn and decent coffee which cheered us up a bit.
Sure, the opera and classical music concerts were cheap. But sitting in the best seats for a tenth of what you'd pay in London doesn't compensate for mediocre performance.
When my dil suggested we move to Spain I was initially not that keen. I was sorry to leave the CR. I vowed to return frequently. In fact I returned once. 
I'm glad we spent the time in Prague. It taught me that you never know a country until you live in it, no matter how often you visit. It also taught me that people here who moan about Spanish bureaucracy really don't have a clue. They should try Czech/Habsburg pedantry and obtuseness.

I never thought I'd be happy in Spain, I'd always seen myself as a Mozart-loving Kafka-reading dumpling and schnitzel-eating European.
How wrong I was....

But that's just my personal view, after all.


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

Surely similarly sized properties can be found for wildly varying prices in Canada, the Czech Republic or any other country, for that matter?

A property may have a sea view, 5,000m2 of landscaped gardens with pool, marble staircase, outbuildings, air conditioning, all services and so on.
It could also be a terraced, run down building with no mains water or electricity, a 20-minute drive to the nearest village down a dirt track...you get the picture.
Prices tend to reflect these differences, but there are still people who price their house according to how much they'd like to sell it for, as opposed to its real value these days.

I've been researching property for years, while I've waited for my own to sell, which it now very nearly has. I now know the property market in my own area and the one I will be moving to very well, and know when someone's living in cloud cuckoo land when the price is outrageous! You would do well to narrow down areas and then go onto a good property portal such as idealista.com, or fotocasa.es. These two sites have listings from agents and private owners. Kyero.com is good also, but has professional listings only. You can set very defined search criteria and get to know prices for that area. 

Estate agents have a poor reputation here. Basically they only earn from getting a sale and are famous for massaging the truth to obtain a sale at any cost. Some try and charge commissions of 5% or more for very little effort. 85% of them have gone out of business since the crash. 

Whatever problems you encounter on your journey, there will be someone on this forum with advice and experience to share!


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## Praguer (Oct 23, 2014)

Hm, you would think that I know the obvious. I was referring to very similar properties - sometimes side by side. Thank you for the web.sites links - I will look (I have gone through eight already). 

5% commission? Same in Canada, 6% for exclusive. In the Czech Republic, you (can) negotiate a fixed fee (3%).


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

Remember when you buy in Spain you need to add around 10% to cover the costs of taxes and transfers etc. But the best advice you will get from here is whatever you do, don't buy first. Rent first and try to do so for around 2 years. This has some enormous advantages: first off, you get to find out if living in your chosen area is the same as being on holiday there. Secondly, if you buy a house and then discover it isn't right for you, you will have a big problem trying to sell at the moment in Spain, one of the reasons you've found such a disparity in house prices. As someone mentioned, a wing and a prayer is often the way these days. Thirdly, if you rent, you can move to another rental property in another area to see if that is more to your taste and expectations. It is a renters market just now (and also a buyers market but many sellers haven't figured that out yet and are asking silly prices) so it won't eat into your capital too much and the knowledge you will gain will be invaluable. You can ask as many questions as you like on here and you will get some excellent answers, but none of it is a substitute for finding out for yourself...


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## Praguer (Oct 23, 2014)

@thrax: Excellent advice. I am just a little too old to spent two years on trial and error. As I said, I will be there for a month in Jan-Feb. The intention for me is snow-birding there for 3 months - the rest of the time it could/would be used by my son and his children (I hope).


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

What you will find even more puzzling is to find the same property at several different prices with multiple agents. Frequently an agent will say to the owner I can get you €X,000. The agent then adds on a hefty commission and arrives at the selling price he will advertise. If he gets it - he is laughing all the way to the bank, if not he has plenty of room to manoeuvre ("I'll try to talk the seller into taking an offer") Now he has a choice of either reducing his "fiddle-factor" commission or he can actually talk the seller to taking a bit less. Different agents will take different amounts of commission and have their own 'fiddle-factor' to play with. 

Now you might think that the seller would gyp at this but in many, if not most, cases, the price that goes on the paperwork is not the same as the amounts actually paid and there is a "brown-envelope" passes between the parties via the agent. This way neither the buyer nor the seller knows how much came from the buyer nor went to the seller and the difference (often quite substantial) will go into the agent's pocket. And that is not all - it is common for the agent to charge both the buyer and the seller for the privilege of having used his/her services. Surely the seller can't be so gullible to see that the difference in the advertised price is so vastly different from what he expects/gets and, of course, the agents answer will be that he had to greatly reduce the price to get the sale and he had advertised at a high price to make the buyer think he was getting a bargain.

All of this depends on the buyer and seller not communicating which is frequently the case when the buyer's command of Spanish is poor. Frequently the buyer will take the agent's advice and use 'this very good lawyer, I know, who will look after you and make sure you aren't ripped off' Of course, the one who is doing the ripping off is the agent and his friend the lawyer is going to find that everything with the paperwork and the financial side is perfect.

A word on the 'brown envelope' You may well find it difficult to completely avoid this. However bear the following in mind:
The brown envelope notionally contains the part of the payment which will not be declared for taxation purposes, thus saving the seller a fair amount. This enables the paperwork to show a figure quite a bit less than the amount paid. Say for example you actually pay €120,000 of which €40,000 is in the brown envleope but the paperwork only shows say €80,000 that saves the seller tax on €40,000. When you come to sell perhaps for €160,000 you are going to expect to pay tax on your profit of €40,000 but as far as the paperwork is concerned, your profit is €80,000 so twice the amount of tax! It is always possible that, after your original purchase has gone though, Hacienda will say that the price has been under-declared and charge you for the unpaid tax on what, in their opinion, they think the purchase should have been and either way you could get stung.


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## Praguer (Oct 23, 2014)

And I thought this stuff went on only here. I will NOT brown-envelope, I never dod. But the advice is excellent - something to watch out for. I actually have a lawyer and she was recommended by a Canadian couple (friends) who did not have to brown-envelope either.

Actually, your words are quite discouraging - almost to the point of throwing the project out of the window.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Praguer said:


> And I thought this stuff went on only here. I will NOT brown-envelope, I never dod. But the advice is excellent - something to watch out for. I actually have a lawyer and she was recommended by a Canadian couple (friends) who did not have to brown-envelope either.
> 
> Actually, your words are quite discouraging - almost to the point of throwing the project out of the window.


Sorry, but it is better that you are aware now than find out afterwards. To be fair, not all agents are crooks and not all lawyers are in cahoots with an agent. I merely explained why you can find the exact same property priced with different prices with different agents. For my part we bought after a few weeks of property hunting in different places that met our requirements. We established a rapport with the seller right from the beginning (great way to prevent the middle man ripping either of you off) but we had the advantage that SWMBO is fluent in Spanish and I speak some. We could not at the time complete the purchase pending the sale of our flat in UK but the seller was in no rush to move since they were having a new house built and we paid in stages which suited them. WE DID use the lawyer recommended by the agent, whom, by this time we had come to know quite well and felt that we could trust both agent and lawyer. The lawyer has since employed SWMBO for legal translations and put her name forward to a friend of hers who was setting up a language academy. SWMBO now runs the local branch of that Academy.


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

I think these days it's much less common that it was. 20 years ago it was an accepted part of buying property. The notary would leave the room while the envelope was handed over! My Spanish family who have bought houses in the last decade have never paid nor received anything like that. My buyer has not offered and I have not asked. I will not be paying either, when I buy my next house.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

We have been asked a couple of times to pay a certain amount like that and in the end it was a deal breaker on the sellers part, they wouldn't sell it to us without paying some cash to them. Their loss, hope the property rots. There is no point advertising at a price if it's not the actual price.

The biggest worry though is finding a seller who is willing to legalise/regularise the property before sale. 
Most wont and they don't want to accept less so you can cover the costs yourself.
We did find one who is willing to get their property up to date but even still they are faffing about and instead of wanting to legalise before sale they want to do it in the notary on the same day which was not the agreement.


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## Tracey W (Oct 24, 2014)

With respect Baldilocks, you will find the "Brown envelope" scenario is a thing of the past. Things are a lot more transparent now and there are some very good, honest agents about. If you do things properly - that is get an English speaking Spanish solicitor to do the conveyancing, you shouldn't have any problems. The solicitor will check that the people selling the house are the legal owners, that no debts are against the property, that it's properly registered with the town hall and the land registry and also what the fiscal value is (That is the value that the hacienda holds for the property) then you shouldn't get stung when you want to sell. You will also find that the sales contract contains the proper sales price and the agent's commission. 

The problems in the past were caused by people being greedy and stupid.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Tracey W said:


> With respect Baldilocks, you will find the "Brown envelope" scenario is a thing of the past. Things are a lot more transparent now and there are some very good, honest agents about. If you do things properly - that is get an English speaking Spanish solicitor to do the conveyancing, you shouldn't have any problems. The solicitor will check that the people selling the house are the legal owners, that no debts are against the property, that it's properly registered with the town hall and the land registry and also what the fiscal value is (That is the value that the hacienda holds for the property) then you shouldn't get stung when you want to sell. You will also find that the sales contract contains the proper sales price and the agent's commission.
> 
> The problems in the past were caused by people being greedy and stupid.


No, No, No - this is STILL very much a part of Spanish life.

Yes, it is not as common as it used to be, but it does still go on. I can cite several instances in just the last few weeks.

You also don't need an English speaking solicitor - that is too restrictive. What you need is a good gestor (or solicitor if you must) and a good interpretor.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

It really, really isn't a thing of the past.
3 times we have been asked to pay like that. Even the bank asked us how much we were paying under the table on one property. They don't care either.


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## maxd (Mar 22, 2009)

Praguer, I live in Prague with my family, I am from the UK and have a Czech wife and 3 kids. I totally understand your motivation to get away from our grim winters.

We leave January and do not come back until April/May. Now is a great time to buy, we bought a big villa in the Canary Islands for a great price last November.

Honestly if you are going away for the winter and like the sun you need to go the canary's, the weather in southern Spain is not the best and you will see many people complaining about the lack of heating over the next few months. Those 2 extra hours on the plane make all the difference. 

Southern Tenerife ( where we bought) and Gran Canaria have the best climates with no rain, the north on both Islands tends to rain lots.

idealista.com â€” casas y pisos, alquiler y venta. anuncios gratis as for buying I usually use this site too look. These are the costs

6.5% transfer tax ( more or less depending on province)
600 euro notary
600 euro lawyer/gestor
agent up to 5%! but the seller pays


Good luck. It is fantastic to be able to live in 2 places, we love our Prague home and love our place in the sun.


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