# House warning



## siobhanwf

*I HAVE BEEN ASKED TO PASS THIS ON*

I am writing to you hoping that you will pass my email onto others to maybe help them avoid the enormous problems that we have had with out house near Caldas da Rainha. 

Because of health problems over here in UK we decided to sell but were advised by an estate agent who was working from a shop in LeClercs that it would be very difficult to sell at that time but said that she could probably rent out our house for us. We knew this lady from when we bought our house 3 years before so felt that we could trust her. After a long chat we decided that this would be a good option for the time being and so agreed. She said that she would find us the renters, do the inventory, take the deposit, arrange for the rent to be paid into our bank account and arrange for all the amenities to be put into the names of the people renting. Whilst we were there she brought 4 or 5 lots of people to look at the house and the day we left she said that she had a couple who wanted to rent it at the price we wanted and so we went home elated. 
That's when things went badly wrong. We never got any monies from her or from the renters who then turned out to be squatters. She then disappeared from LeClercs and her website also disappeared. We couldn't do anything at all and although we have had solicitors involved, costing us so much money, they couldn't do anything but go through the slow process of the courts. In the meantime the squatters sold EVERYTHING in the house including all the furniture, washing machine, table tennis table, TVs, linens, crockery and cutlery, our clothing, the boiler and all radiators plus much much more. 
Its only today that we have had somebody go into the house as these horrible people left on Thursday. The mess they left is awful and all the locks had been changed so our folk had to break in through the window. Looking at the photographs of the shell of the dirty house is so upsetting. We have heard from locals that these people and others do this all the time. 

Please do pass on this email in the hope that it may stop this happening to others.


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## robc

Siobhan

I am so sorry to hear this, it must be heartbreaking, our thoughts are with your friends/acquaintances.
It is good of you to post this up, it cannot be easy having to continually retell this harrowing tale but I hope that you may find comfort in the fact that someone just may avoid a similar tragedy as a result of your posting.

Good luck with sorting it out.

We are going over 1st week of Feb, if I can do anything to help then p.m. me.

Rob


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## Silverwizard

siobhanwf said:


> *I HAVE BEEN ASKED TO PASS THIS ON*
> 
> I am writing to you hoping that you will pass my email onto others to maybe help them avoid the enormous problems that we have had with out house near Caldas da Rainha.
> 
> Because of health problems over here in UK we decided to sell but were advised by an estate agent who was working from a shop in LeClercs that it would be very difficult to sell at that time but said that she could probably rent out our house for us. We knew this lady from when we bought our house 3 years before so felt that we could trust her. After a long chat we decided that this would be a good option for the time being and so agreed. She said that she would find us the renters, do the inventory, take the deposit, arrange for the rent to be paid into our bank account and arrange for all the amenities to be put into the names of the people renting. Whilst we were there she brought 4 or 5 lots of people to look at the house and the day we left she said that she had a couple who wanted to rent it at the price we wanted and so we went home elated.
> That's when things went badly wrong. We never got any monies from her or from the renters who then turned out to be squatters. She then disappeared from LeClercs and her website also disappeared. We couldn't do anything at all and although we have had solicitors involved, costing us so much money, they couldn't do anything but go through the slow process of the courts. In the meantime the squatters sold EVERYTHING in the house including all the furniture, washing machine, table tennis table, TVs, linens, crockery and cutlery, our clothing, the boiler and all radiators plus much much more.
> Its only today that we have had somebody go into the house as these horrible people left on Thursday. The mess they left is awful and all the locks had been changed so our folk had to break in through the window. Looking at the photographs of the shell of the dirty house is so upsetting. We have heard from locals that these people and others do this all the time.
> 
> Please do pass on this email in the hope that it may stop this happening to others.


Hi Siobhan,

It's a very sad story indeed,I have heard of similar things occurring in the Algarve to peoples holiday homes & the sad fact is the Police say they can do little if anything about it.....It's therefore down to the poor victim to take a civil action against these people (if they can be located) at considerable expense,thus increasing the substantial costs of replacing stolen/lost items even further.
Surely there needs to be some legislation put in place to assist the victims of these particularly upsetting crimes, (e.g. assisting or removing the legal costs involved in the action),the way things are at present seems to rub salt into already very painful wounds.


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## MaidenScotland

I had the same thing happen to me only it was a hotel I leased out... I was left with nothing not even a tea spoon, my solicitor said take them to court.. the people involved had no money so what was the point the only person who would win was the solicitor. You cannot get blood out of stone,


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## Silverwizard

MaidenScotland said:


> I had the same thing happen to me only it was a hotel I leased out... I was left with nothing not even a tea spoon, my solicitor said take them to court.. the people involved had no money so what was the point the only person who would win was the solicitor. You cannot get blood out of stone,


Hi MaidenScotland. 

It must be a truly horrendous experience,especially when you think how hard you had to work to finance your business
& get it up & running etc.....To then have some unspeakable lowlife clean you out it just seems so incredibly unfair.
Hope you over all that now (if that's possible) & are enjoying life in Egypt.

Kind Regards

SW.


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## robc

Silverwizard said:


> Hi MaidenScotland.
> 
> It must be a truly horrendous experience,especially when you think how hard you had to work to finance your business
> & get it up & running etc.....To then have some unspeakable lowlife clean you out it just seems so incredibly unfair.
> Hope you over all that now (if that's possible) & are enjoying life in Egypt.
> 
> Kind Regards
> 
> SW.


MaidenScotland

I second SW's comments..............Hope Egypt is going well and give my regards to Katamaya Heights when next you pass. Thanks

Rob


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## omostra06

This sort of thing does worry anyone that rents property out,


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## MaidenScotland

Thanks for the comments
To make matters worse it was distant family that ripped me off, and of course this has led to unpleasantness in the family
I hope to leave Egypt very soon


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## Silverwizard

MaidenScotland said:


> Thanks for the comments
> To make matters worse it was distant family that ripped me off, and of course this has led to unpleasantness in the family
> I hope to leave Egypt very soon


Whoever said "You can choose your friends but not your family" got it right!
Well,wherever you go I wish you well & better luck for the future.....
Keep us posted!


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## robc

Silverwizard said:


> Whoever said "You can choose your friends but not your family" got it right!
> Well,wherever you go I wish you well & better luck for the future.....
> Keep us posted!


Or of course there is always old faithful of

"you can pick your friends, and you can pick your nose, but you can't pick your friends nose!!!!"


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## scotcheddiemarble

sorry to have had to read of such bad news,is this commmon all over portugal and what type of scum lowlifes are responsible for this kind of theft,as that is what it is,stealing ur happyness.is it portugal locals,dreaded roma people or just immmigrant chancers and how often does this happen?


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## siobhanwf

scotcheddiemarble said:


> sorry to have had to read of such bad news,is this commmon all over portugal and what type of scum lowlifes are responsible for this kind of theft,as that is what it is,stealing ur happyness.is it portugal locals,dreaded roma people or just immmigrant chancers and how often does this happen?


Infortunatley it is a Brit who apparently is now living somewhere in Scotland on the proceeds (the estate agent that is) and the rest are just common theives!!


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## Appena

siobhanwf said:


> Infortunatley it is a Brit who apparently is now living somewhere in Scotland on the proceeds (the estate agent that is) and the rest are just common theives!!


The estate agents are a portuguese couple and my hubby might have tracked them down, so info has been passed on to the people who had their home ruined


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## siobhanwf

Appena said:


> The estate agents are a portuguese couple and my hubby might have tracked them down, so info has been passed on to the people who had their home ruined



well done you!!


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## siobhanwf

I spoke today the the guy who checked the house out. *EVERYTHIN*G was removed!! even the fittings in the bathrooms and the contents f the kitchen cupboards. The shutters had already been removed when he got inn to check. 
The house was full of dog poo!!! 
The log fire whad been dismanteled and the pipe bit was lying on the floor.
Nothing could be done at the time and he arranged with the owner to go back the next day and change the locks... when he arrived even that had been removed overnight!!!!

These tenants were apparently friends of the agents!!

No rent paid....high electricity bills and even the gas canisters removed.

OH how I feel for the owners.


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## Appena

Yes this is all correct.
I have been asked to say please do not to put too much info on the internet as although the couple concerned wanted to warn others, they have to be careful that nothing compromises their case. Also you are never quite sure who is looking on here and could alert the agents


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## siobhanwf

Appena said:


> Yes this is all correct.
> I have been asked to say please do not to put too much info on the internet as although the couple concerned wanted to warn others, they have to be careful that nothing compromises their case. Also you are never quite sure who is looking on here and could alert the agents


NO PROBLEM Appena


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## bombadil

Hi all this is just another long list of stories that i have heard about us brits being ripped off be it by builders , car dealers , estate agents etc, does the short sharp shock smack over the head with a baseball bat work or how does one get there money back , justice is it a local police thing or a long drawn out saga in the courts.

I know some people are naive but even if you have done all the right things IE got contracts, done some homework you still have to have an element of trust as to get a building project on the move you have to let go of money to get the ball rolling even before a brick is layed,
Or buy a car only for it to be a heap, Or go to the shop / market and as soon as they know you are not one of them the price goes up so what protection do we have as we are targets for these rogues because of our trusting nature and they think we have bucket loads of hard earned savings to grab


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## Mr.Blueskies

This sort of thing seems to be all too common. There also would seem to be lots of property management companies that are not up to the mark and who fail to pay utility bills etc. Owners next come out and find that the electric and water has been cut off because utility bills have not been paid. Gardeners too who are on the pay roll and pool maintainance people and odd job men who also would appear to be largely invisible. It does seem to be quite difficult to find reputable people.

Unfortunately when the cat is away, the mice most certainly do play. There probably does need to be a lot more information posted in the public arena about these rogue operators, but unfortunately victims are gagged and very effectively silenced by the fear of legal action. The crooks hold all of the trump cards and they do know the system here and how to play them to maximum effect. Difficult to know how to remain safe.

Fly by nights now you see them, now you don't. Be careful, it's dangerous out there.


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## robc

bombadil said:


> I know some people are naive but even if you have done all the right things IE got contracts, done some homework you still have to have an element of trust as to get a building project on the move you have to let go of money to get the ball rolling even before a brick is layed,


I would agree with quite a lot of what you have said, but not all. If you have done your homework thoroughly then there is no element of chance,luck ..............call it what you will. 
The most important thing is to obtain advice, paid for if necessary, from as many independent sources as possible. The need to cross reference is IMHO vital.

With regard to paying before a brick is laid, in my experience, not true. 
Our Builder is not asking for any money until after he completes a stage of construction. :clap2:
I could not see that happening in the UK

Rob


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## bombadil

robc said:


> I would agree with quite a lot of what you have said, but not all. If you have done your homework thoroughly then there is no element of chance,luck ..............call it what you will.
> The most important thing is to obtain advice, paid for if necessary, from as many independent sources as possible. The need to cross reference is IMHO vital.
> 
> With regard to paying before a brick is laid, in my experience, not true.
> Our Builder is not asking for any money until after he completes a stage of construction. :clap2:
> I could not see that happening in the UK
> 
> Rob


Hi Rob.
You say that your builder is not asking for any money only at stage payments there is still no guarantee that he will not take the money and run as i know a couple who had the same agreement and the builder done little work which did not equate to the value of money he took he told them the materials cost 3 times there true worth. Do not think that i am tarirng all people with the same brush the point i am trying to get a cross is that these rogues home in on the expat community be it brits or dutch etc


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## robc

bombadil said:


> Hi Rob.
> You say that your builder is not asking for any money only at stage payments there is still no guarantee that he will not take the money and run as i know a couple who had the same agreement and the builder done little work which did not equate to the value of money he took he told them the materials cost 3 times there true worth. Do not think that i am tarirng all people with the same brush the point i am trying to get a cross is that these rogues home in on the expat community be it brits or dutch etc


I think it is important that everyone exercises vigilance when dealing with any trades, whether at home or abroad. I have no doubt that there are both individuals and companies who will look to target foreign nationals which is where this type of forum is particularly useful. I believe that a simple exercise applied time and time again will stop a lot of possible heartache.
Just ask yourself a few simple questions.

1. Is the proposition too good to be true? If it is then it probably is.
2. Do I have the means to have the work/proposition/proposal independently verified? If not, why not. 
3. Will the proposal/work be sourced from one point or individual? If so, why?
4. What 3rd party references are available?

Just by keeping one's feet firmly on the ground may help avoid a heap of trauma.

Rob


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## omostra06

robc said:


> I think it is important that everyone exercises vigilance when dealing with any trades, whether at home or abroad. I have no doubt that there are both individuals and companies who will look to target foreign nationals which is where this type of forum is particularly useful. I believe that a simple exercise applied time and time again will stop a lot of possible heartache.
> Just ask yourself a few simple questions.
> 
> 1. Is the proposition too good to be true? If it is then it probably is.
> 2. Do I have the means to have the work/proposition/proposal independently verified? If not, why not.
> 3. Will the proposal/work be sourced from one point or individual? If so, why?
> 4. What 3rd party references are available?
> 
> Just by keeping one's feet firmly on the ground may help avoid a heap of trauma.
> 
> Rob


I recently helped someone obtain a "honest" quote to rebuild a property here, they came to me for advice when they were given a quote of almost 150,000 euros to restore a smallish property, 
They were asking if i thought this quote was high!!!
I suggested they get some more quotes.
The builder that i recommended to them ( the only one i recommend as i have used him personaly several times) came back with a quote of around 50,000 euros for the same job!

I have heard of people not asking advice from other expats or getting several quotes only to pay way over the top for the work.


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## -mia-

omostra06 said:


> I recently helped someone obtain a "honest" quote to rebuild a property here, they came to me for advice when they were given a quote of almost 150,000 euros to restore a smallish property,
> They were asking if i thought this quote was high!!!
> I suggested they get some more quotes.
> The builder that i recommended to them ( the only one i recommend as i have used him personaly several times) came back with a quote of around 50,000 euros for the same job!
> 
> I have heard of people not asking advice from other expats or getting several quotes only to pay way over the top for the work.


Do you know anyone who takes the first quote at home? 
So why should they take the first quote abroad?


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## Silverwizard

omostra06 said:


> I recently helped someone obtain a "honest" quote to rebuild a property here, they came to me for advice when they were given a quote of almost 150,000 euros to restore a smallish property,
> They were asking if i thought this quote was high!!!
> I suggested they get some more quotes.
> The builder that i recommended to them ( the only one i recommend as i have used him personaly several times) came back with a quote of around 50,000 euros for the same job!
> 
> I have heard of people not asking advice from other expats or getting several quotes only to pay way over the top for the work.


Hi Derek,

We had three quotes for a labour only bathroom renovation,we decided to go for the second highest quote of 1200€,
so you can imagine our horror when the job was finished & he asked for 1700€....
I asked him to leave & said our solicitor would be in touch.
He started to come out with unexpected problems,none of which had been 
previously mentioned,we stood firm & said we would only pay the original amount & not a cent more......
Suffice to say,the guy left & rang us a few times over succeeding days asking for his money,each time reducing the amount slightly,
until about a week later he got the message & accepted the original amount.
My point is,I speak reasonable Portuguese & my wife being a native is obviously fluent,what would it be like for Expats,
who maybe speak enough to order their lunch & do a little shopping?
I have a feeling they would feel threatened & intimidated & would probably pay up.
This problem existed to a certain extent in the U.K.,we all know that,but here it seems to be "par for the course",making it extremely difficult to know who to trust.

p.s. This was a written estimate,& after acceptance there was never any talk of "unexpected problems" during the period of work being carried out.


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## Silverwizard

robc said:


> I think it is important that everyone exercises vigilance when dealing with any trades, whether at home or abroad. I have no doubt that there are both individuals and companies who will look to target foreign nationals which is where this type of forum is particularly useful. I believe that a simple exercise applied time and time again will stop a lot of possible heartache.
> Just ask yourself a few simple questions.
> 
> 1. Is the proposition too good to be true? If it is then it probably is.
> 2. Do I have the means to have the work/proposition/proposal independently verified? If not, why not.
> 3. Will the proposal/work be sourced from one point or individual? If so, why?
> 4. What 3rd party references are available?
> 
> Just by keeping one's feet firmly on the ground may help avoid a heap of trauma.
> 
> Rob


Hi Rob,

Whilst totally accepting in principal what you say..........I would say that other than number 1 of your criteria these verifications would be all but impossible.
In the last year I have used four different contractors for various tasks associated with modernising our apartment & I honestly think if I "hit 'em" with your criteria,they would look at me quite blankly as if I was from another planet.
This ain't the UK,mind sets here are totally different,and as such I really don't think your rules would work....Sad but true....
And as far as trauma is concerned,I think that's part of living in Portugal!!


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## bombadil

Hi Derek
That is a vast difference it just goes to show that we are open to being ripped off,


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## siobhanwf

omostra06 said:


> I recently helped someone obtain a "honest" quote to rebuild a property here, they came to me for advice when they were given a quote of almost 150,000 euros to restore a smallish property,
> They were asking if i thought this quote was high!!!
> I suggested they get some more quotes.
> The builder that i recommended to them ( the only one i recommend as i have used him personaly several times) came back with a quote of around 50,000 euros for the same job!
> 
> I have heard of people not asking advice from other expats or getting several quotes only to pay way over the top for the work.


So true Derek.
I always amazes me how some builder seem to just pick a price out of the air!
Whenever we asked the builder who built our house (not for us ..it was finished when we found it) he would pull €3000 out of his hat!
Needless to say we always got other quotes and rarely used him!
He has now "gone to the wind" and even his 5 year warranty was worth diddly squat!


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## omostra06

Yes, some builders just see expats as stupid cash cows, daft enough to agree to any price they ask, sad to say but some people do just that and pay over inflated prices to these guys, so it keeps them trying it on because they know that every now and then they will find someone who just agrees the price they quote.

some of you might remember a thread on a different expat forum a year or so back , where someone was asking for a builder to be recommended near Tomar, several people made suggestions, one name in particular came up from a couple of expats who were having work done by this builder, now this particular builder is very well known as one that over charges and "milks" more and more money out of expats. he is also known for paying 10% commission to anyone that recommends him (perhaps thats why he was suggested) anyway i made mention that i had heard several bad reports on this guy and i suggested to the poster that they should just be careful with this builder. for suggesting that this guy might not be totally honest these expats started having a go, defending him and saying things about me to try to disscredit my view of him. anyway the thread got closed. 
later this builder disappeared taking lots of expats money with him, leaving several jobs unfinished that had been paid upfront! (he is still missing) so i guess what was known of this guy turned out to be very true, so why was he defended so strongly? perhaps for the commission he was offering to other expats, after all 10% of a 60,000 euro job is tempting for some people!
maybe they had started to realise that they too were being "milked" for more money than was originally quoted and didnt like the fact that we were talking about how bad this guy was and they were still using him, maybe they were feeling embarassed about it, and decided to defend him to try and not look like they had been taken in.
anyway he has gone and left a real mess in his wake,
so i think to avoid problems, you do need to be strickt about who you employ to do work for you, do ask questions, do look at their work, most importantly talk to people who have had work done by the builder, are they happy, was the price paid the same as the quote, 
it is worth the extra effort to ask around and try to avoid the dodgy builder, even if sometimes they do come recommended by õther expats,


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## robc

Silverwizard said:


> Hi Rob,
> 
> Whilst totally accepting in principal what you say..........I would say that other than number 1 of your criteria these verifications would be all but impossible.
> In the last year I have used four different contractors for various tasks associated with modernising our apartment & I honestly think if I "hit 'em" with your criteria,they would look at me quite blankly as if I was from another planet.
> This ain't the UK,mind sets here are totally different,and as such I really don't think your rules would work....Sad but true....
> And as far as trauma is concerned,I think that's part of living in Portugal!!


I guess I am in the process of finding out


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## goldberry

Hi Derek
It is by having people like you around that gives us in the Tomar area a becon to go to a shinning light at the end of a sometimes endless tunnel


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## omostra06

goldberry said:


> Hi Derek
> It is by having people like you around that gives us in the Tomar area a becon to go to a shinning light at the end of a sometimes endless tunnel


Thanks very much

I do get contacted by many people who have been taken advantage of, looking for advice,
as they have had problems with agents, builders, arcitects and even lawyers, but although it does happen, i can say that most people buy and rebuild/restore without any problems, Thats why forums like these are great for sharing information and advice, hopefully helping others to avoid some of these problems.


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## Mr.Blueskies

Shame on any expat who would encourage another to use a dodgy builder or rip off merchant just to get a kick back by way of a comission. Don't personally know how they can next have the front to continue to engage with said people after knowingly doing something like that ? Some expats unfortunately make the "mistake" of thinking that because someone is from their country of origin and also trying to make a go of living here that they are more "likely" to be trustworthy than the portuguese. This frequently proves to be a grave error of judgement.

These rogue operators are eventually found out though but much later rather than sooner and usually only because others are prepared to continue to recommend them. A horrible way to live ones life ie preying on others and destroying lives. People like these are a blight on humanity because they harm and damage everyone to one degree or another who have the misfortune to have any interaction with them no matter how minor. I'm no expert but these people are the losers because they do eventually all end up with nothing and no one literally. It is just not possible to go through life with this mind set and escape intact.


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