# Is It Dangerous To Buy Property In Spain?



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

My husband was sent this e-mail this morning, he subscribes to something or other and they send him e-mails every now and again. I thought this one was quite topical. I hope posting it here doesnt break any copyright rules ??????




Written by Nick Snelling . Eye on Spain!

Almost everyone is now aware of Spain's reputation as somewhere that is hazardous in which to buy property. Indeed, virtually every week a headline appears in the international press highlighting yet another scandal concerning Spanish property. Again and again, stories describe the plight of people who have bought property in Spain only to find, to their horror, that their properties have potentially ruinous problems. Some of these properties are not fully legal or subject to considerable liabilities, whilst others risk the compulsory loss of part of their land or, worst of all - a possible demolition order. It is enough to make anyone thinking of moving to Spain change their mind.

So, is it really dangerous to buy property in Spain?

Well, the honest answer to this question is a qualified - no. No, if you know what you are doing and no - if you are exceptionally careful and know the 'rules of the game'.

The trouble is that most people who buy property in Spain do so carelessly whilst naively imagining that the Spanish property industry operates much the same way as in the UK. It does not. Not at all! In fact, understanding this point, in its most raw and brutal form, is essential if you are to buy a property in Spain that is a safe and sound buy - both from the point of view of legality and investment.

Of course, if you are moving to Spain permanently and intend buying a property in Spain then the stakes could not be higher. Indeed, if you make an error it may be one that will cost you your life savings, turn a dream into a nightmare and risk everything that you have worked hard for over many long years. All of which is unnecessary - if you have the right knowledge.

After seven years in Spain (including working extensively within real estate), I think I have seen, one way or another, most of the problems and scams relating to Spanish property. Unfortunately, half the property problems in Spain are caused by the very nature of the Spanish property industry and half by property buyers themselves - who are frequently taken advantage of and act like 'lambs to the slaughter'.

Of course, there are guidelines to buying Spanish property safely. Some of the most important are:

1. Know the difference between 'Urbanizado', 'Fully Urbanizado' and 'Rural'. To understand these absolutely critical Spanish property terms is not 'rocket science' - but is so fundamental that you should not even be looking at property in Spain before you know what they mean and their very serious and differing implications.

2. Every Spanish property should have a Licencia de Primera Ocupación or First Occupancy Permit (sometimes known as a 'Certificado de Habitacion' or 'Cedula'). If it does not have one - do not buy it.

3. Only buy a property that is easily re-saleable - so be prepared to compromise on what you want if it means buying a re-saleable property. Obviously(!), know (objectively) what is or is not re-saleable. Guidelines are available and they are very important...

4. Never confuse a 'bargain' price with a sound buy. The two are not necessarily the same thing! This is as true of a property crash as it is of a boom.

5. Never accept the very existence of a property in Spain as evidence of its legality - even if it has been around for a long time. The property may still be illegal, semi-legal or have huge potential liabilities.

6. Be extremely wary of buying any Spanish property that is situated within less than at least 100 metres of the highest point that could be reached by the sea in a major storm.

7. Always use a Spanish lawyer for your conveyancing who:

a. Is completely independent of the seller and any estate agent.

b. A specialist in conveyancing.

c. Completely fluent in your language.

d. Fully and properly insured.

e. Is prepared (and does!!) place all advice in writing to you.

8. Always use a properly qualified, fully insured, experienced building surveyor to survey your property - even if this means using an ex-pat surveyor. (Good Spanish surveyors specialising in house survey work are very hard to find).

9. Never pay any 'black' money for a Spanish property - i.e. cash that is not shown on the Escritura (deeds) as part of the total property purchase price.

10. Never be pressured, never rush and always double check what you are told - and obtain written proof if you have the slightest doubt about the truth of some matter.

Follow the above and you will be well on your way to buying a sound property in Spain. Break the 'rules' and act without the right knowledge and you will almost certainly regret it!

Finally, I must stress that you can move to Spain and buy property in Spain safely. We did - and our property has been a sound choice on all levels. Even now, in the midst of a massive property crash, it is easily re-saleable and has preserved the essence of its value. But then we knew what we were doing and that moving to Spain to buy a property was an undertaking requiring serious preparation and planning - if it was not to end in disaster...


Nick Snelling is a freelance journalist and author of four books including: 'How to Move Safely to Spain' http://www.movetospain-safely.com Further articles and information can be seen on http://www.nicholassnelling.com

Article Source:  http://EzineArticles.com/?expert=Nick_Snelling


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> My husband was sent this e-mail this morning, he subscribes to something or other and they send him e-mails every now and again. I thought this one was quite topical. I hope posting it here doesnt break any copyright rules ??????
> 
> 
> Jo xx


Thanks Jo. Have printed it off to read on my lunch break (at 4 o' clock!)


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Its what I have said before.

If you bought a house in the UK and didnt know what you were doing, didnt use a solicitor and just accepted what the seller and agent said then you wouldnt be suprised I guess if it ended in tears. So why do it here!!!?


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

Absolutely right!! I personally know several Brits who are currently fighting off demolition but it is always down to one thing: they didn't do their homework and thought they could skip round the rules. Unfortunately, however devastating the outcome, if you don't follow the correct process you can risk everything. Someone I know built their own home based on a handshake with a local mayor in a bar. He is now in prison for corruption and they have nothing in writing to prove he agreed to the build (not that anything he agreed to would be worth much I guess...). They haven't lost it yet but obviously it is a very stressful situation to be in.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Reading this and related threads have made me rather depressed. People chasing dreams and when the roof falls in they hope their government, Europe or even the so called government of Spain might help them but sadly the world is not like that. They are on their own with no easy way out. What a mess. And even if these people were stupid and/or naive I still feel for them.

But refreshing here a touchy subject has been debated largely in a very civilised way. Hopefully that debate will lead to people being more cautious in the future. I guess that is what this place is all about. Take a bow everyone :clap2:


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

nigele2 said:


> Reading this and related threads have made me rather depressed. People chasing dreams and when the roof falls in they hope their government, Europe or even the so called government of Spain might help them but sadly the world is not like that. They are on their own with no easy way out. What a mess. And even if these people were stupid and/or naive I still feel for them.
> 
> But refreshing here a touchy subject has been debated largely in a very civilised way. Hopefully that debate will lead to people being more cautious in the future. I guess that is what this place is all about. Take a bow everyone :clap2:


But it is a little annoying that the word out there is that it's dangerous to purchase property in Spain ...... whereas in reality it needn't be if the right precautions and procedures are undertaken


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

The problems with buying in Spain are alot of the time self inflicted. The guide above is showing you how to do it safely.

Lets face it, people tend to want a place in Spain, not only because its a nicer climate, the views, the lifestyle etc - but because they can - or could get more for their money and sometimes they get blinded by that.

The problem is that the rules in Spain are different to those in the UK and tend to be more lax - therefore it seems so easy to "ignore" warning signs and be a bit "naughty" (you'd not get away with it in the UK). 

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

At last! A clear article stating some of the facts!!
This is the kind of person the Priors etc need to be in contact with.

It's made very clear here

There are rules and regulations about buying property in Spain
Some of them are different to the UK
If you break those rules you are gambling with your investment
It *is* possible to buy property safely in Spain


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> Reading this and related threads have made me rather depressed. People chasing dreams and when the roof falls in they hope their government, Europe or even the so called government of Spain might help them but sadly the world is not like that. They are on their own with no easy way out. What a mess. And even if these people were stupid and/or naive I still feel for them.
> 
> :


But Nigel, why should the British or Spanish taxpayer help out those people who have made mistakes caused by their own foolishness? 
We already do far too much of that in the UK, IMO. 
I along with millions of others lost money because my investments didn't turn out as I hoped. The small print warns you about that, though....
I'm sick of my still large tax burden being spent on so many things I don't support - reckless foreign wars, feckless people who see welfare as a pleasant alternative to low-paid work ,duck moats and 'flipped' second homes for MPs : the list is endless.
I don't want to add to that : supporting people who recklessly took a gamble on a better life in a foreign land and found that it didn't work out.
Don't get me wrong: my name isn't Mary Thatcher But those people who worked hard all their lives, prudently saved for their retirement, stayed away from unsound get-rich-quick schemes and now find that £100k of investment returns them £500 a year are the people I feel sorry for. They would have been better off taking out huge loans and mortgages then taking up the benefits they are entitled to when the bubble bursts. So much for work and thrift....
The Government of Spain isn't 'so-called' by the way- it's very much in evidence round here. So many Plan E schemes...
But I suppose it's better for the economy to subsidise schemes whereby people work and local business benefits than to pay the dole for them to be idle.
I wonder if people in the UK would support such schemes whereby people on benefits who are able-bodied were obliged to do some socially useful work in return for state support? What do you think?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> At last! A clear article stating some of the facts!!
> This is the kind of person the Priors etc need to be in contact with.
> 
> It's made very clear here
> ...


Agreed 100%
Did you see the ITV programme on Marbella last night? Loads of people there who bought safely.
Our villa was the large pink one on the top of the hill, BTW. The one with the Rolls and the two Bentleys in the garage
Seriously, though, those people bring more money into Spain in a month than the combined purchasing power of Almeria pensioner immigrants in a year.
Young idiots spraying champagne at 1500 euros a bottle over each other....
They obviously aren't expecting the bulldozers at the gates of their luxurious homes.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> Agreed 100%
> Did you see the ITV programme on Marbella last night? Loads of people there who bought safely.
> Our villa was the large pink one on the top of the hill, BTW. The one with the Rolls and the two Bentleys in the garage
> Seriously, though, those people bring more money into Spain in a month than the combined purchasing power of Almeria pensioner immigrants in a year.
> ...


I saw that too - there were some surprising people on there werent there Mary 

Mind you the mayor of marbella is at the moment down the road from me in AdlT Prison - for corruption!!!!!!!

Its was an interesting programme tho and it sums up most of southern Spain - altho more exaggerated. Different levels of lifestyles all in one

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Agreed 100%
> Did you see the ITV programme on Marbella last night? Loads of people there who bought safely.
> Our villa was the large pink one on the top of the hill, BTW. The one with the Rolls and the two Bentleys in the garage
> .


 No, I didn't. Can you tell me the name of the programme and I'll see if can get it on Youtube????????


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> No, I didn't. Can you tell me the name of the programme and I'll see if can get it on Youtube????????


It was Piers Morgans Travel programme - I cant rmember exactly what it was called, but its a weekly thing where he visits different places around the world!

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> No, I didn't. Can you tell me the name of the programme and I'll see if can get it on Youtube????????


It was on ITV, 'Piers Morgan on Marbella'.
But don't let that put you off


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## neilmac (Sep 10, 2008)

*is it dangerous to buy in Spain*



mrypg9 said:


> It was on ITV, 'Piers Morgan on Marbella'.
> But don't let that put you off


We set about chasing our dream three years ago. Bought a house insisting on an independent solicitor. Have used the house as a small business with local support from the town hall, local businesses and of course the wonderful villagers who have accepted us into their world. 

Naturally the economy has not helped with our desire to downsize and to continue living in 'our' lovely village but we cannot help feeling that scaremongering exacerbates the situation.

Our advice, by looking away from the costas and slightly inland you may find more genuine people to deal with rather than the wheeler dealer types.

For us the experience has been good and although the frustration of not yet selling remains we are delighted to continue our dream - so more positivity required!


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

"I wonder if people in the UK would support such schemes whereby people on benefits who are able-bodied were obliged to do some socially useful work in return for state support? What do you think?"

I've always said that the long-term unemployed should be made to work for their benefits. They should be out now,snow clearing, not sitting in the warm whilst receiving 25 pounds a week extra because of the cold weather. The people struggling to work have still got to find extra money for their heating by saving on other things or working overtime.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> "?"
> 
> I've always said that the long-term unemployed should be made to work for their benefits. They should be out now,snow clearing, not sitting in the warm whilst receiving 25 pounds a week extra because of the cold weather. The people struggling to work have still got to find extra money for their heating by saving on other things or working overtime.


I think you will find you are wrong.. The extra £25 per week is a grant for OAPS reciving Pension Credit when the mean temperature falls below 0c for a period of seven consecutive days. It's not for the long-term unemployed.
It's important to get the facts right when discussing issues such as this as if you don't it's easy to demolish the whole argument.
As for the long-term unemployed: a process has begun whereby these people and those on disability benefits are being called into their local Job Centre and assessed for eligibility to work. Private Agencies are being paid huge sums by central Government to find work for the unemployed.
But your argument implicitly assumes that every single unemployed person is workshy and I reject that. In some areas there are simply no jobs available. The rapid transformation of our economy into a knowledge-based one requiring different skills means that some older people will inevitably struggle to find employment.
My post was in no way meant to be construed as a generalised attack on all those receiving benefits of any kind.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

neilmac said:


> We set about chasing our dream three years ago. Bought a house insisting on an independent solicitor. Have used the house as a small business with local support from the town hall, local businesses and of course the wonderful villagers who have accepted us into their world.
> 
> Naturally the economy has not helped with our desire to downsize and to continue living in 'our' lovely village but we cannot help feeling that scaremongering exacerbates the situation.
> 
> ...


I quite agree. As well as the Eye on Spain fact sheet, other Agencies have been putting out similar information. My bank, Solbank, has been giving advice on house-purchase for the past ten years and has recently updated its booklet.
My comment related to Piers Morgan, not Spain
I'm glad you are happy and thinking positively-we are too!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I used to know Piers "Pughe" Morgan when he was a kid!!!! (Pughe is his middle/family name!!) His parents ran the local village pub where I lived!!! He was a p**** then too lol!!!!

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> I used to know Piers "Pughe" Morgan when he was a kid!!!! (Pughe is his middle/family name!!) His parents ran the local village pub where I lived!!! He was a p**** then too lol!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


What did you think of the programme, though?
I agree, PM is irritating, to say the least.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I think you will find you are wrong.. The extra £25 per week is a grant for OAPS reciving Pension Credit when the mean temperature falls below 0c for a period of seven consecutive days. It's not for the long-term unemployed.
> It's important to get the facts right when discussing issues such as this as if you don't it's easy to demolish the whole argument.
> As for the long-term unemployed: a process has begun whereby these people and those on disability benefits are being called into their local Job Centre and assessed for eligibility to work. Private Agencies are being paid huge sums by central Government to find work for the unemployed.
> But your argument implicitly assumes that every single unemployed person is workshy and I reject that. In some areas there are simply no jobs available. The rapid transformation of our economy into a knowledge-based one requiring different skills means that some older people will inevitably struggle to find employment.
> My post was in no way meant to be construed as a generalised attack on all those receiving benefits of any kind.


I can assure you that the 25 pounds is available to recepients of a whole range of benefits as well as oap's. This £25 payment will be additional to those other fuel payments people receive. It will be paid automatically to nearly 150,000 by the Social Security Agency to qualifying groups in affected areas.

"To qualify for the allowance a person must be receiving either Income Support, State Pension Credit, Jobseekers Allowance or Employment and Support Allowance."

"Additional criteria includes that they must be a pensioner or receive a disability premium, receive Child Tax Credit, have a child under five-years-old or receive an amount of credit from the Employment and Support Allowance."

See also here.

Help for people on a low income - the Social Fund

By long term unemployed I meant people who have been on it for years many who I have had the misfortune to meet. Like the twin bros. one works all the hours God sends and the other has only worked 18 mths in his whole life (They're 62 ).They live opp. each other and don't speak. The whole family is on benefits, sons ,daughters, he even got the son-in-law to stop working. Yes, there are areas without work but if you want to you have to go and find it, not wait and hope that it comes to you.
I was in no way implying that all the unemployed are workshy merely stating that their should be some work req. for receipt of benefits.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> I can assure you that the 25 pounds is available to recepients of a whole range of benefits as well as oap's. This £25 payment will be additional to those other fuel payments people receive. It will be paid automatically to nearly 150,000 by the Social Security Agency to qualifying groups in affected areas.
> 
> "To qualify for the allowance a person must be receiving either Income Support, State Pension Credit, Jobseekers Allowance or Employment and Support Allowance."
> 
> ...


I think you will find that these payments are not automat ic, only to those in receipt of Pension Credit and I don't think we'd object to that. They are means-tested as I think ALL benefits should be. It seems daft that a retired person with an income of say £30k per annum or above should get a Winter Fuel Payment.
What we are both suggesting when we say that the unemployed should rhave to do some meaningful work to receive benefits is essentially that they should be given jobs!! That's what working for pay is, after all. 
My main gripe isn't about those on JSA -it's about those on other kinds of payments. I'm not in favour of putting single parents in the workhouse but the current situation is untenable: unstable 'families', growth of an underclass and a drain on national resources. In the town where I lived and worked it seems that most of the young people are either unemployed or parents before the age of 20. They have never worked, never contributed to the funds they draw on. That incenses me.
If you look at the figures you'll find that the growth of the underclass in the UK corresponds to the implementation of neo-con economic policies.
Hopefully if David Cameron is elected he will return to the One Nation economic and social policies of his predecessors.
Do you think that's possible, though??
The main cause of all thios seems to be


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez;
.
. Yes said:


> I agree with you - there are people who are prone to faint at the mere thought of work. Also your implied suggestion that personal initiative and responsibility isn't as important in our society as it used to be.
> One big problem though is that wages for some jobs are so low that it's economically more sensible to stay on the dole, even if you want to work.
> When we had our business we paid good wages but other companies who were in the same line paid lower wages knowing that the shortfall would be made up by the taxpayer. These firms were able to offer services at a lower cost as their unit labour costs were lower.
> What can you do in a situation like that?


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Yes, apparently they are automatic only requiring the temp. to be below the set figure for, I believe, 7 days to trigger the payments. I agree with all you say except that I think the situation is either bordering on, or has already gone past the point of no return.
What really galls me is that most of these benefits have only been created in the last 30 yrs.
To your business point re: wages I wholeheartedly agree, it's not a level playing field and should never be allowed.

All these new creations and yet the payment to OAP's for attaining the age of 80, 5' in old money was still the same ( 25p) when my father received it ,15 yrs ago!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> Yes, apparently they are automatic only requiring the temp. to be below the set figure for, I believe, 7 days to trigger the payments. I agree with all you say except that I think the situation is either bordering on, or has already gone past the point of no return.
> What really galls me is that most of these benefits have only been created in the last 30 yrs.
> To your business point re: wages I wholeheartedly agree, it's not a level playing field and should never be allowed.
> 
> All these new creations and yet the payment to OAP's for attaining the age of 80, 5' in old money was still the same ( 25p) when my father received it ,15 yrs ago!!


Same for my 90-year-old grandmother, who was so insulted to receive 25p that she kept threatening to send it back!! 
The problem is: how do you deal with the problem of people who think that living on benefits is a life-style choice?
I knew young people in the UK who were third generation welfare claimants: grandmother/father, parents and children never having worked.
What can be done about them? They can't be left to starve.
As you are obviously interested in economic/social issues, have you read anything by John Gray? I don't mean the John Gray who wrote 'Men are from Mars, Women from Venus', I mean the political philosopher/economist.
I'm rereading 'False Dawn'. Thought-provoking stuff.
And from Amazon, cost 1p used, delivery to Spain £2.99!!


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Same for my 90-year-old grandmother, who was so insulted to receive 25p that she kept threatening to send it back!!
> The problem is: how do you deal with the problem of people who think that living on benefits is a life-style choice?
> I knew young people in the UK who were third generation welfare claimants: grandmother/father, parents and children never having worked.
> What can be done about them? They can't be left to starve.
> ...


No, I haven't I tend to steer clear of anything that will raise my b/pressure. On a site yesterday a poster said that you have two choices for change, 1) go into politics and get elected or 2) leave. I discounted the 1st. on age but if I'd known what a shambles it would descend in too then I might have been tempted years ago. Then again, like most people I was too busy working and hoped that those we elected would do the right thing. I chose the 2nd. and left.

I think that a drastic reduction in some types of benefits is required but once the politicians have a large proportion of the population receiving benefits of some kind,those in receipt are not going to vote for a party that wants to drastically reduce them, are they ?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> No, I haven't I tend to steer clear of anything that will raise my b/pressure. On a site yesterday a poster said that you have two choices for change, 1) go into politics and get elected or 2) leave. I discounted the 1st. on age but if I'd known what a shambles it would descend in too then I might have been tempted years ago. Then again, like most people I was too busy working and hoped that those we elected would do the right thing. I chose the 2nd. and left.
> 
> I think that a drastic reduction in some types of benefits is required but once the politicians have a large proportion of the population receiving benefits of some kind,those in receipt are not going to vote for a party that wants to drastically reduce them, are they ?


Confession time: I was heavily involved in politics at local and national level until about fifteen years ago; after that I did voluntary work for my professional association, primarily in the field of employment law. I also had to earn a living.
My political views have changed quite radically over the past ten years. My experience of politics was that 1) no-one in power really listens to the public and 2) you almost never get the chance to do what you want to do, you have instead to choose between the lesser of the 'evils' with which you are presented..
My views now are that a social market economy is probably the best way to increase prosperity and ensure a measure of social justice. I fear though that the globalisation of the economies of all countries will mean the end of those social market economies that still exist.
The huge growth in the cost of benefits can be traced back to the failed attempt to introduce a Victorian 'free market' into twentieth century Britain, imo. The statistics show a huge increase in the divorce rate, the number of single-parent families, joblessness and the growth of an underclass in the period of the 80s and 90s. Ironically, at the end of the Thatcher years, public spending was an even greater proportion of GDP than iin 1979.
Admittedly the old corporatist model of the post-war years had outlived its sell-by date and the state could no longer afford to subsidise full employment a la Keynes.
A different course could have been taken - but damned if I know what...
But then I'm not an economist or politician any longer, than God.
Incidentally, it was my experience that the underclass don't vote or vote BNP or similar fringe parties.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

As Lenox is no longer here


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

Did Zappy reply to that, Strav?? Interestingly she referred to the "ley de costas" (coastal law) which was not referred to in the sentencia of the Priors' case.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

This is an article about some houses that were pulled down in Cantabría last year. I just thought it was interesting as 
- it's a different region in Spain that is usually talked about when referring to this kind of problem.
- It's not affecting a group of foreigners
Versión para imprimir - Comienza el derribo de viviendas ilegales y un chiringuito en la costa de Cantabria - 20minutos.es

PS Interesting youtube link Stravinsky.
PPS did you see how much she was shaking ? Poor woman!!


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Yes I noticed her shaking .... it cant be easy when you are taking a "man of his stature" to task 

I was also a little confused about the reference to coastal laws


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

A speech with no substance other than a plea for leniency, imo. Until the facts are addressed and it is recognised that not all cases are on the same footing it's only too easy for Zapatero or anyone in a position of authority to over-ride individual instances where real injustice has been done with the argument that these houses are de iure illegal builds.
Demands for a moratorium on demolitions and the setting up of a Commission of Inquiry or whatever the Spanish equivalent is would have made more impact. Grounds would have to be given for the refusal of a reasonable request.
ASs it was, she was using her valuable speaking time for no purpose other than an appeal for clemency which imo seems a wasted opportunity.
But then she represents UKIP....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> Yes I noticed her shaking .... it cant be easy when you are taking a "man of his stature" to task


Could her shaking be suppressed laughter as to her eyes the image of Mr. Bean kept alternating with that of Senor Zapatero?


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> A speech with no substance other than a plea for leniency, imo. Until the facts are addressed and it is recognised that not all cases are on the same footing it's only too easy for Zapatero or anyone in a position of authority to over-ride individual instances where real injustice has been done with the argument that these houses are de iure illegal builds.
> Demands for a moratorium on demolitions and the setting up of a Commission of Inquiry or whatever the Spanish equivalent is would have made more impact. Grounds would have to be given for the refusal of a reasonable request.
> ASs it was, she was using her valuable speaking time for no purpose other than an appeal for clemency which imo seems a wasted opportunity.
> But then she represents UKIP....


Jeez!
I wish I had a slap myself on the forehead emoticon 

I'm not going to get into a discussion with you about it again, but instead of the demonstrations you were so unhappy about, a Spaniard has actually got up and tried to raise the profile in a democratic forum and still its a waste of time!!

Ah well ...........


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> ASs it was, she was using her valuable speaking time for no purpose other than an appeal for clemency which imo seems a wasted opportunity.
> But then she represents UKIP....


er....... dont we like UKIP??????

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> Jeez!
> I wish I had a slap myself on the forehead emoticon
> 
> I'm not going to get into a discussion with you about it again, but instead of the demonstrations you were so unhappy about, a Spaniard has actually got up and tried to raise the profile in a democratic forum and still its a waste of time!!
> ...


But my point is not that she raised the topic, heightened the profile or whatever, it's that she wasted an opportunity. Getting on your hind legs and speaking won't do anything per se if what you say has no focus. Raising profiles won't stop bulldozers.
I'm unhappy about actions that are merely that....gestures. That's why I thought the demo wouldn't have much effect. I asked what the focus would be -would a letter be handed in, a list of 'demands' - but answer there came none.
I went into politics to achieve results as well as drawing attention to issues.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> er....... dont we like UKIP??????
> 
> Jo xxx


Whenever the hard Left and the hard Right agree on something, I tend to be very wary. I remember Enoch Powell and Labour left-wing dinosaurs like Eric Heffer sharing anti-Common Market platforms before the 1976 Referendum.
I stood for election to the European Parliament a few years ago (in a hopeless seat -but I nearly got elected0 and I had to read up on a lot of topics: the Common Agricultural Policy, European Social Fund, sheep meat regime etc etc and I had to know at least the gist of the impotrtant treaties such as Rome, Maastricht, Bruges, the Single European Act and so on. Yet my knowledge merely skims the surface. The votes on the Lisbon Treaty in those states which allowed a vote werre farcical - how many people honestly knew what they were voting for? I read part of a summary and gave up. I wouldn't have deserved a vote on it as I knew sod-all about it.
I think that UKIP trades on the worries, fears and sheer xenophobia of people who know very little about what has stealthily become the EEC, the EC and now the EU. IMO the EC has become an undemocratic institution which exists chiefly because it suits the needs of European multi-nationals who benefit from economies of scale. But it has -more or less -kept the peace in Europe for over sixty years and enabled people like us to move ourselves and our money freely around the member states. When the world is moving towards a system of huge trading blocs it makes sense for Europe to have a single homogenised market.
If we left the EU millions of UK jobs would be lost. Who would we trade with? The old Commonwealth trading partners have long moved on. Should we join NAFTA? I'm sure that British workers would welcome the prosprect of working for less than Mexicans in maquilladores.
I don't like the EU -it's undemocratic, remote, inefficient and incredibly wsateful- but our role in the world has diminished to the extent that we probably need the EU more than it needs us.
I also find it amusing that people who are so anti-EU are willing to benefit from the lavish expenses for MEPs. I seem to remember that at least one UKIP MEP was prosecuted for fiddling expenses.
Just as bad as the Westminster lot.
UKIP will be to the Tories at the next election what the BNP will be to Labour: a serious threat in some constituencies.


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

This should be a STICKY imo Jo. 

I'd also add - make sure any sale/purchase is notarised - ie PUBLIC PAPER. 

The Spanish are VERY VERY good at seeming laid back - often they're very much the reverse. 

The bulldozer thing - I recall a story once about a certain ambassadorial residence near Valencia.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

chris(madrid) said:


> This should be a STICKY imo Jo.
> 
> .


Yes, or start a similar thread about buying property in Spain. Some of the stickies that already exist could be combined or taken off, the one about childcare for example...


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, or start a similar thread about buying property in Spain. Some of the stickies that already exist could be combined or taken off, the one about childcare for example...


Are you suggesting that ther forum needs a spring clean??????? 

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> Are you suggesting that ther forum needs a spring clean???????
> 
> Jo xxx


A winter wash!!???


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

jojo said:


> Are you suggesting that ther forum needs a spring clean???????  Jo xxx


More a Steam clean - 'sok I'll collect my coat on the way.

No seriously Jo - it's one of the most complete do-dont thngies. Should be up there alone and No comments so that the initial post is alone. Really!


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

chris(madrid) said:


> More a Steam clean - 'sok I'll collect my coat on the way.
> 
> No seriously Jo - it's one of the most complete do-dont thngies. Should be up there alone and No comments so that the initial post is alone. Really!


We may have to check as thats copyright material


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