# Spain versus United States for retirement



## elamaral

New to this forum, so not sure if it was discussed before.. So here's our story: I am Russian-born Canadian/US citizen and my husband French-born French/American citizen now living and working in the United States (Colorado). I had my share of living in cold places all of my life (Moscow, Toronto, now Colorado) and with age (me in late 40-s, husband in early 50-s) the cold weather just gets harder and harder to tolerate now... So, as many thousands of others on this forum, we started to dream (and plan) where should we settle for our early retirement (hopefully - in 3-5 years from now). Living in the US - our initial option was to move to Florida (St. Augustine area) - this would be easier in terms of moving, settling, taxation, etc. But both of us being from European origin, very wordly and well-traveled, and between us being fluent in 3 languages (English, French, Russian - unfortunately no Spanish, but started to learn), we are having our doubts now if we'll really enjoy being retired in Florida as much, if we would settle in the South of Europe (Spain sounds the best option for us, France is nice, but might be too expensive, especially at the coast (we want to be close to the sea). I am wondering if people on this forum with similar background/experience/situation could share thoughts/experience and help with advice. Here's the areas I need to figure out (oh, and as far as perspective location in Spain, I am thinking about Javea / Malaga area):

So here it goes - Florida vs Javea (or coastal south of Spain);

Climate: 
Florida is very nice from November through April, but extremely hot and humid during summer/fall months. How about Javea, - are winters too cold (I checked area weather averages, but how it feels in reality, when you live there)?

Cost of living - which one is more affordable?

Moving: any experience how much will cost to move 3-bedroom house contents from US to Spain?

Taxes:
(we will have retirement income from our current job and also Social Security (after 67, so it's still far away), and 401K retirement savings. What kind of tax brackets are we looking into if we retire in Spain and become residents. What types of our pension income will be taxed - is it much higher in comparison to US?

Medical Insurance:
I understand, we'll need to buy a private health insurance in Spain through the whole time we live there - How much it will be (full coverage, including vision and dental for 2 persons of our age)? In the US, until Medicare kicks in, we would be paying about $800-900 per month for 2 people)

Real estate taxes, house insurance, other taxes and fees.

Electricity, gas, utilities cost. Internet, phones, etc. Are these comparable?

Culture - this is no brainer, - we love Europe and European culture, food, architecture, life style, - so we won't need to adjust here.

Family:
Kids are grown up and independent (except for the youngest, who will be just out of college by the time we plan to retire). They will visit, of course, but this is the hardest part - to move so far away from them? On another hand, we have the rest of our family (husband's mother, sisters, nephews/nieces living in France, and my mother, sister/brother, their kids living in Russia), so this part of the family will be closes and be able to visit more often. 

Entertainment: with Internet and ability to travel in Europe, - no worries here.

So, these are the main points. Thanks!


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## baldilocks

I started planning for retirement year 2000. I am British citizen, Wife (SWMBO) is Colombian/US by birth but naturalised British. I started with a list of 7 countries with which we had various links (language, holidays, relations), subsequently, one by one they were whittled down for various reasons (cost of living, cost of medical care/insurance, etc, etc). 

To go back to the early stages, the in-laws had been cheated out of loads of money and lost the majority of what was left by a bank going bust and moved from Colombia to Florida in 2001. F-i-l is Colombian, m-i-l is US but has never worked in USA so had no social security entitlements. Initially they went into rented accommodation. We extended the mortgage on our UK flat to buy a villa in FL for them to live in. 2005 f-i-l died so we knew that we were going to have to, at some point, have the m-i-l live with us. The villa was a possibility but when we added up the costs of living there, including health insurance, it would be impossible. 2006 I became an OAP. 2007 villa eventually sold (at a small loss) and m-i-l came to live with us, but by then we had opted for Spain and were buying a house here.

Taking everything into consideration, retiring to Spain versus the US wins hands down, unless you have specific ties that draw you more to the US. IMO financially, you will be better off in Spain. Make sure that you rescind any US citizenship to avoid being taxed by the US on your worldwide earnings.


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## Isobella

We have American friends who lived in Spain. When they reached official retirement age they went back to US as they were eligible for Medicare and taxes were a lot less than Spain. Having seen the house and area where they now live (Florida) I think they did the right thing.

Have you tried asking on the USA forum?


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## maxd

Housing tax horrible in Florida. Souless shopping malls, flat you have to drive everywhere and cannot pop over to rome or paris for a weekend. If you like lots of rules, fat people in Walmart then chose Florida. If you like culture, Europe, tapas and not having to tip 25% every time you sit down for lunch then come to Spain.


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## kalohi

I think the question about taxes is the one that you really need to find a good answer to before you make any kind of decision about where to live. As an American citizen you will always have to file a US income tax return no matter where in the world you live, plus you would have to file in the country that you are residing in. Unfortunately we don't have a lot of retired Americans posting here to tell you how they're dealing with their taxes in Spain. Just the other day somebody posted asking about Spanish taxes and a 401K and nobody had an answer for them. I don't have US income of any kind so I'm afraid I can't help you. You'd have to find a Spanish international tax lawyer and see if they could help. 

I'll give a stab at your other questions:

Climate in coastal Spain: I don't live in coastal Spain but right now it's cold in Javea! See "]this post. I'm pretty sure it's generally colder on the coast of Spain than in St. Augustine, but not brutally cold by a long shot.

Cost of Living: ??? No idea, totally depends on your lifestyle. 

Moving: I've never done this but I've read that most people recommend that it's only worth shipping what you absolutely can't part with.

Utilities: Internet and phones are more expensive here. Electric and gas (for car) are MUCH more expensive. 

Medical Insurance: Much, much, much cheaper here. BUT, if you have a pre-exisiting condition, depending on what it is you will have to pay more or they might not even cover it at all. Prescription costs are almost never included in insurance plans, but medication is MUCH cheaper here. Vision is never included. Dental coverage is limited. Taking all of that into account, you could expect to pay about 120-150€ for the two of you a month. 

Family: Don't forget to think about the possibility that _you_ might need family to help you as you get older. For instance, if you're hospitalized, nurses here don't provide personal care. A family member or friend of the patient is expected to do that.


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## Steve171517

elamaral said:


> New to this forum, so not sure if it was discussed before.. So here's our story: I am Russian-born Canadian/US citizen and my husband French-born French/American citizen now living and working in the United States (Colorado). I had my share of living in cold places all of my life (Moscow, Toronto, now Colorado) and with age (me in late 40-s, husband in early 50-s) the cold weather just gets harder and harder to tolerate now... So, as many thousands of others on this forum, we started to dream (and plan) where should we settle for our early retirement (hopefully - in 3-5 years from now). Living in the US - our initial option was to move to Florida (St. Augustine area) - this would be easier in terms of moving, settling, taxation, etc. But both of us being from European origin, very wordly and well-traveled, and between us being fluent in 3 languages (English, French, Russian - unfortunately no Spanish, but started to learn), we are having our doubts now if we'll really enjoy being retired in Florida as much, if we would settle in the South of Europe (Spain sounds the best option for us, France is nice, but might be too expensive, especially at the coast (we want to be close to the sea). I am wondering if people on this forum with similar background/experience/situation could share thoughts/experience and help with advice. Here's the areas I need to figure out (oh, and as far as perspective location in Spain, I am thinking about Javea / Malaga area):
> 
> So here it goes - Florida vs Javea (or coastal south of Spain);
> 
> Climate:
> Florida is very nice from November through April, but extremely hot and humid during summer/fall months. How about Javea, - are winters too cold (I checked area weather averages, but how it feels in reality, when you live there)?
> 
> Cost of living - which one is more affordable?
> 
> Moving: any experience how much will cost to move 3-bedroom house contents from US to Spain?
> 
> Taxes:
> (we will have retirement income from our current job and also Social Security (after 67, so it's still far away), and 401K retirement savings. What kind of tax brackets are we looking into if we retire in Spain and become residents. What types of our pension income will be taxed - is it much higher in comparison to US?
> 
> Medical Insurance:
> I understand, we'll need to buy a private health insurance in Spain through the whole time we live there - How much it will be (full coverage, including vision and dental for 2 persons of our age)? In the US, until Medicare kicks in, we would be paying about $800-900 per month for 2 people)
> 
> Real estate taxes, house insurance, other taxes and fees.
> 
> Electricity, gas, utilities cost. Internet, phones, etc. Are these comparable?
> 
> Culture - this is no brainer, - we love Europe and European culture, food, architecture, life style, - so we won't need to adjust here.
> 
> Family:
> Kids are grown up and independent (except for the youngest, who will be just out of college by the time we plan to retire). They will visit, of course, but this is the hardest part - to move so far away from them? On another hand, we have the rest of our family (husband's mother, sisters, nephews/nieces living in France, and my mother, sister/brother, their kids living in Russia), so this part of the family will be closes and be able to visit more often.
> 
> Entertainment: with Internet and ability to travel in Europe, - no worries here.
> 
> So, these are the main points. Thanks!


Hi
I own a condo in Naples Florida and an apartment just south of Malaga towards Gibraltar so I may be able to give you an indication of what we pay in bills and taxes in Naples and what we pay in Spain.
In Florida I pay approx $3000 a year in local taxes, $8000 in maintenance fees and about $1200 a year in electrical fess which come to $12200, my water bills are included in the maintenance fees and I pay about $1000 in cable fees which includes the internet. Local property taxes are calculated at 1.25% of the properties value and this can fall as well as rise, but property is on the way up in Florida 

In Spain I pay local property taxes equivalent to $1000, $520 for water and about $3000 in maintenance and my electrical bill come to about €1000, these are all per year. I stay about 4 months in each place so you will have to work out how much the utilities would come to if you decided to stay longer. Our phone bills and Internet are approximately $700 per year 

I have noticed that it's cheaper to live in Spain, food is substantially cheaper and you generally get what's in season.
It's cheaper eating out in Spain and the quality of food and wine is excellent . I don't stay in Florida in January, February or March as the place becomes too crowded with snowbirds. It can get chilly in Florida even the south near the keys and Northern Florida can be colder still, although saying that it can be very warm most of the time. Spain can get cold in the winter but spring comes early and if you play golf it's great . Summers are very hot, hotter than Florida but without the humidity 
House insurances are cheaper in Spain 
Gas(fuel) is cheaper in the USA but it is coming down in Spain, but I doubt that will be forever.

I hope this helps, if you have any further questions just ask


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## Isobella

Naples is quite an upmarket place compared with Casares though. Our friends are close to Naples. Generally we found it cheaper to eat out than the CDS. Don't know about taxes but I understand full time residents get homestead allowance which reduces their taxes. Generally the weather is milder than Spain and official stats confirm that. We thought of buying there if we ever get shot of our Spanish property but we will probably be too long in the tooth to care then


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## baldilocks

Steve171517 said:


> Hi
> I own a condo in Naples Florida and an apartment just south of Malaga towards Gibraltar so I may be able to give you an indication of what we pay in bills and taxes in Naples and what we pay in Spain.
> In Florida I pay approx $3000 a year in local taxes, $8000 in maintenance fees and about $1200 a year in electrical fess which come to $12200, my water bills are included in the maintenance fees and I pay about $1000 in cable fees which includes the internet. Local property taxes are calculated at 1.25% of the properties value and this can fall as well as rise, but property is on the way up in Florida
> 
> In Spain I pay local property taxes equivalent to $1000, $520 for water and about $3000 in maintenance and my electrical bill come to about €1000, these are all per year. I stay about 4 months in each place so you will have to work out how much the utilities would come to if you decided to stay longer. Our phone bills and Internet are approximately $700 per year
> 
> I have noticed that it's cheaper to live in Spain, food is substantially cheaper and you generally get what's in season.
> It's cheaper eating out in Spain and the quality of food and wine is excellent . I don't stay in Florida in January, February or March as the place becomes too crowded with snowbirds. It can get chilly in Florida even the south near the keys and Northern Florida can be colder still, although saying that it can be very warm most of the time. Spain can get cold in the winter but spring comes early and if you play golf it's great . Summers are very hot, hotter than Florida but without the humidity
> House insurances are cheaper in Spain
> Gas(fuel) is cheaper in the USA but it is coming down in Spain, but I doubt that will be forever.
> 
> I hope this helps, if you have any further questions just ask


I don't remember what we paid in FL for a 2BR villa on a gated community. Here in Spain we have a 5BR, 2Ba house on five levels including an liveable attic i.e. it can take spare beds and provide sleeping accommodation for four/five more people, we also have a patio, woodstore (holds 4-5 tonnes of logs and a workshop on the lowest level. Total area is about 220m². We pay 148€ in property tax p.a. Food here is excellent quality and inexpensive but is subject to seasonal vagaries (they don't fly strawberries 3,000 miles just so you can have strawberries and cream at Christmas which is good if you are environmentally conscious). Autos are smaller and much more fuel efficient. Roads are definitely much less crowded and you will normally walk (sorry for swearing) to your local store because you can, unlike in many parts of the US where there is just no sidewalk so, unless you wish to take your life in yours hands by walking on the highway, you take the car.

With regard to consumables, water, gas, electricity - they are based on your own personal consumption but we have no gripes, but then we try not to waste. We have a log burner that uses between 2 and 3 tonnes of logs per year (depending on how cold it is in winter and we pay 100€ per tonne cut, delivered and stacked in the logstore (two floors below street level). Gas is 17.50€ per bombona which lasts about 3 weeks in winter (cooking and hot water) or about 6 weeks in summer when the hot water comes from the solar panel.


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## elamaral

baldilocks said:


> I started planning for retirement year 2000. I am British citizen, Wife (SWMBO) is Colombian/US by birth but naturalised British. I started with a list of 7 countries with which we had various links (language, holidays, relations), subsequently, one by one they were whittled down for various reasons (cost of living, cost of medical care/insurance, etc, etc).
> 
> To go back to the early stages, the in-laws had been cheated out of loads of money and lost the majority of what was left by a bank going bust and moved from Colombia to Florida in 2001. F-i-l is Colombian, m-i-l is US but has never worked in USA so had no social security entitlements. Initially they went into rented accommodation. We extended the mortgage on our UK flat to buy a villa in FL for them to live in. 2005 f-i-l died so we knew that we were going to have to, at some point, have the m-i-l live with us. The villa was a possibility but when we added up the costs of living there, including health insurance, it would be impossible. 2006 I became an OAP. 2007 villa eventually sold (at a small loss) and m-i-l came to live with us, but by then we had opted for Spain and were buying a house here.
> 
> Taking everything into consideration, retiring to Spain versus the US wins hands down, unless you have specific ties that draw you more to the US. IMO financially, you will be better off in Spain. Make sure that you rescind any US citizenship to avoid being taxed by the US on your worldwide earnings.


Thanks for the reply, Baldilocks!  Yes, reading through posts, it looks like financially we may be bettor off in Spain, except for pension income tax and heating/electricity charges and some services which will be higher is Spain. The biggest concern is the income tax: living in Florida (income tax free state), we would be liable only for Federal income tax (for which we'll fall into 15% tax bracket), meanwhile in Spain, with our retirement income, looks like we'll hit 30-35% tax bracket, even with deductions. So, this makes considerable difference. Meanwhile, before we reach official Medicare age (65), we'll have to purchase private health insurance, which will cost us about $800 per month (comparing with health insurance in Spain of about $200 per month) for both of us. But then, it looks like property insurance and real estate taxes are cheaper in Spain (at least for the time being), so until Medicare kicks in, the expenses will probably be on a similar level for us in both countries. 

We are planning to keep our US citizenships, in case we'll have to return to United States when we grow old and will need our children's help. Spain and US have a double-taxation treaty, which should prevent double-taxation between these countries. So, it's okay to have primary residency in Spain and still keep US citizenship, we'll just need to file yearly tax papers in both countries, but from what I understand, US taxes will be deducted from the amount of Spanish taxes we'll need to pay.


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## elamaral

Isobella said:


> We have American friends who lived in Spain. When they reached official retirement age they went back to US as they were eligible for Medicare and taxes were a lot less than Spain. Having seen the house and area where they now live (Florida) I think they did the right thing.
> 
> Have you tried asking on the USA forum?


Yes, the houses in Florida are very nice and right now very reasonable, as far as price. It seems like they are going up though, so not sure if the house prices will keep low there by the time we are ready to retire. We'll see. But the climate in Florida is much worth that in Mediterranean, summers are extremely hot and humid, and with the heat factor much less tolerable than coastal Spain in summer (and we are talking about 5 months of extreme heat and humidity). Also, hurricane threat is always looming on the horizon... Are you in contact with these people, how do they like it so far - no regrets?

P.S. Thanks for the suggestion to try it on USA forum, I will repost there too, see what Americans have to say...


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## elamaral

maxd said:


> Housing tax horrible in Florida. Souless shopping malls, flat you have to drive everywhere and cannot pop over to rome or paris for a weekend. If you like lots of rules, fat people in Walmart then chose Florida. If you like culture, Europe, tapas and not having to tip 25% every time you sit down for lunch then come to Spain.


Agree, I check the housing and insurance taxes for homes in Florida, and they are REALLY HIGH! 

As far as culture and history, - you don't need to convince us - Spain wins on all counts! Popping over to Rome, Paris, or Barcelona - this will be our dream come true!


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## baldilocks

After my m-i-l had lived through a hurricane, standing for (what seemed like) hours holding a window frame in place to stop it blowing in, it finally put the cap on our plans re USA or Europe. It took some 2½-3 years to get the damage to the roof and the Florida room repaired.


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## elamaral

kalohi said:


> I think the question about taxes is the one that you really need to find a good answer to before you make any kind of decision about where to live. As an American citizen you will always have to file a US income tax return no matter where in the world you live, plus you would have to file in the country that you are residing in. Unfortunately we don't have a lot of retired Americans posting here to tell you how they're dealing with their taxes in Spain. Just the other day somebody posted asking about Spanish taxes and a 401K and nobody had an answer for them. I don't have US income of any kind so I'm afraid I can't help you. You'd have to find a Spanish international tax lawyer and see if they could help.
> 
> I'll give a stab at your other questions:
> 
> Climate in coastal Spain: I don't live in coastal Spain but right now it's cold in Javea! See "]this post. I'm pretty sure it's generally colder on the coast of Spain than in St. Augustine, but not brutally cold by a long shot.
> 
> Cost of Living: ??? No idea, totally depends on your lifestyle.
> 
> Moving: I've never done this but I've read that most people recommend that it's only worth shipping what you absolutely can't part with.
> 
> Utilities: Internet and phones are more expensive here. Electric and gas (for car) are MUCH more expensive.
> 
> Medical Insurance: Much, much, much cheaper here. BUT, if you have a pre-exisiting condition, depending on what it is you will have to pay more or they might not even cover it at all. Prescription costs are almost never included in insurance plans, but medication is MUCH cheaper here. Vision is never included. Dental coverage is limited. Taking all of that into account, you could expect to pay about 120-150€ for the two of you a month.
> 
> Family: Don't forget to think about the possibility that _you_ might need family to help you as you get older. For instance, if you're hospitalized, nurses here don't provide personal care. A family member or friend of the patient is expected to do that.


Thanks for the info! It's very helpful! For tax question, I will try to find out more, but eventually, we'll have to talk to tax layer, who specializes in both US and Spanish tax law. Question about 401K - it was from me BTW  - didn't get any concrete answer from anybody - looks like people prefer to keep it secret!


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## elamaral

Steve171517 said:


> Hi
> I own a condo in Naples Florida and an apartment just south of Malaga towards Gibraltar so I may be able to give you an indication of what we pay in bills and taxes in Naples and what we pay in Spain.
> In Florida I pay approx $3000 a year in local taxes, $8000 in maintenance fees and about $1200 a year in electrical fess which come to $12200, my water bills are included in the maintenance fees and I pay about $1000 in cable fees which includes the internet. Local property taxes are calculated at 1.25% of the properties value and this can fall as well as rise, but property is on the way up in Florida
> 
> In Spain I pay local property taxes equivalent to $1000, $520 for water and about $3000 in maintenance and my electrical bill come to about €1000, these are all per year. I stay about 4 months in each place so you will have to work out how much the utilities would come to if you decided to stay longer. Our phone bills and Internet are approximately $700 per year
> 
> I have noticed that it's cheaper to live in Spain, food is substantially cheaper and you generally get what's in season.
> It's cheaper eating out in Spain and the quality of food and wine is excellent . I don't stay in Florida in January, February or March as the place becomes too crowded with snowbirds. It can get chilly in Florida even the south near the keys and Northern Florida can be colder still, although saying that it can be very warm most of the time. Spain can get cold in the winter but spring comes early and if you play golf it's great . Summers are very hot, hotter than Florida but without the humidity
> House insurances are cheaper in Spain
> Gas(fuel) is cheaper in the USA but it is coming down in Spain, but I doubt that will be forever.
> 
> I hope this helps, if you have any further questions just ask


Thanks Steve! Very informative, especially comparing taxes and cost of utilities between Florida and Spain. Looks like you are living/traveling between 3 countries - do you rent these properties on a part-time basis while you are not there? Since you spend only 4 month per year in Spain, I guess you don't need to apply to be a tax resident there for income tax purposes?

For us, having 2 properties in different countries and sharing time between them is not an option (first, don't think we can afford 2 properties that we really like, and then it will be hard to travel back and forth. This is why living in Europe is so attractive to us, - because we'll be able to travel to the places we like easily and inexpensively). So, we plan to sell our house in Colorado, rent in Valencia area for 6-12 month while checking out properties, and then to buy a detached villa, hopefully close to the coast.


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## Steve171517

Hi elamarel,
We rent the Florida condo out from January to March we are able to get about $5500 per month this pays for our maintenance and local taxes, last year we had a 6 month rental during the summer as well, but for a lot lower rental as its low season, so we were only able to get there in April, May November and December, it's something we don't generally do in the summer but we thought as we were in Spain, why not. 
We don't rent Spain out that's for our own, family or friends.
No we are not tax resident but we have an accountant that does our taxes in both countries so when we eventually end up selling we don't have any trouble with the IRS or the tax authorities in Spain. But my wife arranges all the accounts I'm not up to speed with all of that, she just says sign here, sign there.
Why not rent your place out permanently in the USA and rent in Spain and then your in a position to move around Europe near enough as you please, you would, I suspect get more for your rental in Colorado than for a place in Spain, France or Italy.
If you rent out your Colorado property on your return you will not miss out on any increases in property values and I suspect will eventually return. property values rise and fall at different rates in different countries. USA is on the rise now and Europe is stagnant, that may change but it's a chance you would have to take.


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## Isobella

maxd said:


> Housing tax horrible in Florida. Souless shopping malls, flat you have to drive everywhere and cannot pop over to rome or paris for a weekend. .


How many people do you know in Spain who pop over to Rome and Paris for the weekend. I don't know anyone.  same as in Florida you could pop over to Bahamas or Puerto Rico but I doubt many do.


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## kalohi

Isobella said:


> How many people do you know in Spain who pop over to Rome and Paris for the weekend. I don't know anyone.  same as in Florida you could pop over to Bahamas or Puerto Rico but I doubt many do.


I do, I know plenty of people who have done this, and I have, to Paris. Ok, it's usually for a long weekend, but there are no shortage of those here in Spain.


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## elamaral

Steve171517 said:


> Hi elamarel,
> We rent the Florida condo out from January to March we are able to get about $5500 per month this pays for our maintenance and local taxes, last year we had a 6 month rental during the summer as well, but for a lot lower rental as its low season, so we were only able to get there in April, May November and December, it's something we don't generally do in the summer but we thought as we were in Spain, why not.
> We don't rent Spain out that's for our own, family or friends.
> No we are not tax resident but we have an accountant that does our taxes in both countries so when we eventually end up selling we don't have any trouble with the IRS or the tax authorities in Spain. But my wife arranges all the accounts I'm not up to speed with all of that, she just says sign here, sign there.
> Why not rent your place out permanently in the USA and rent in Spain and then your in a position to move around Europe near enough as you please, you would, I suspect get more for your rental in Colorado than for a place in Spain, France or Italy.
> If you rent out your Colorado property on your return you will not miss out on any increases in property values and I suspect will eventually return. property values rise and fall at different rates in different countries. USA is on the rise now and Europe is stagnant, that may change but it's a chance you would have to take.


We thought about not selling the house here but just renting it out and use the rental income money to rent in Spain (and we would probably even make some profit on a rental price difference as well). I do have some concerns about this scenario though: 

1. If I am not a resident of Spain and not an EU citizen (my husband is French citizen though), how can I rent/stay is Spain longer than 3 months at a time?
2. I read (and heard from friends and relatives) so many horror stories about people renting their houses, and then tenants would stop paying and trash the place, and then it's hard to kick them out, you need to sue them, pay to lawyers, and then pay for costly repairs. So, we are not sure we want to have this kind of headache when we retire (maybe short-term rentals are safer for a landlord, but for long-term rentals I just heard too many negative experiences from landlords here).
3. If we rent in Europe - we'll be in a permanent "on-the-move", "temporary residence state" mode, live in somebody's house, on somebody's furniture, and I heard that you cannot rent in Spain for more than 11 months at a time? We are very homey people, like to settle, have our staff around, our favorite couches, paintings, books, rugs. So, living for an extended time period in somebody else's place is not a very attractive option for us. Besides, we have 2 cats, and you know how it's stressful to move around with cats. I just hope to move them only once, as much stress-free as possible for them and be done with


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## elamaral

kalohi said:


> I do, I know plenty of people who have done this, and I have, to Paris. Ok, it's usually for a long weekend, but there are no shortage of those here in Spain.


We actually did it too, many times. When we come to France to visit my husband's family, we arrive to his parent's house first, unpack, stay a few days, then rent a car and travel to nearby towns/countries for 2-3 days each area. A few years ago, we did drive from Paris to Costa Brava for a few days, visited Perpignan, Barcelona, and many small towns on our way. Another recent trip, we went north, visited Bruges, Antwerp, Cologne, Basel, stayed few days in Baden Baden. So, we do this even during our short trips to Europe, and hope to do this more often when we actually settled here and have free time on our hands.


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## Pesky Wesky

Isobella said:


> How many people do you know in Spain who pop over to Rome and Paris for the weekend. I don't know anyone.  same as in Florida you could pop over to Bahamas or Puerto Rico but I doubt many do.


Many do, especially the young.


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## baldilocks

elamaral said:


> 1. If I am not a resident of Spain and not an EU citizen (my husband is French citizen though), how can I rent/stay is Spain longer than 3 months at a time?


Your husband is an EU citizen. This gives you both certain rights.

Provided you have the financial means and healthcare provision covered, he has the right to reside and register as a resident in Spain. You, as his wife, have the right to reside with him (in Spain) as his dependant.

w.r.t. renting - that is your choice. Personally, having both rented and owned property in UK, Colombia and USA, we opted for buying. When we first went to UK we rented. Great views, rent reasonable and everything hunky-dory. On renewal of the lease (after 1 year) the rent was going to increase to beyond what the place was worth and to a level that would support a mortgage. We bought an apartment.

Over the 17 years we were there, the apartment increased in value sufficient to support our taking out a loan to cover the deposit on a place in Florida for the in-laws to live in and subsequently to enable us to buy this house.


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## kalohi

elamaral said:


> 1. If I am not a resident of Spain and not an EU citizen (my husband is French citizen though), how can I rent/stay is Spain longer than 3 months at a time?


You can't. You'd have to apply for residency, as a non-EU family member of an EU citizen. You should start that process as soon as you arrive in Spain. It requires quite a lot of paperwork some of which is time sensitive so be sure to have all your ducks in a row before you come. Check out the FAQ's in the stickies above (here's a link) for more information.


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## baldilocks

kalohi said:


> You can't. You'd have to apply for residency, as a non-EU family member of an EU citizen. You should start that process as soon as you arrive in Spain. It requires quite a lot of paperwork some of which is time sensitive so be sure to have all your ducks in a row before you come. Check out the FAQ's in the stickies above (here's a link) for more information.


Off those stickies, read this:
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...-american-brit-wife-england-moving-spain.html


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## Strudelbaum

maxd said:


> Housing tax horrible in Florida. Souless shopping malls, flat you have to drive everywhere and cannot pop over to rome or paris for a weekend. If you like lots of rules, fat people in Walmart then chose Florida. If you like culture, Europe, tapas and not having to tip 25% every time you sit down for lunch then come to Spain.


Exactly my sentiments. Tried it out three years in West Palm Beach, Fla and ended up on Costa del Sol, Fuengirola thirteen years ago. If I ever leave it will be my feet first.


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## elamaral

kalohi said:


> You can't. You'd have to apply for residency, as a non-EU family member of an EU citizen. You should start that process as soon as you arrive in Spain. It requires quite a lot of paperwork some of which is time sensitive so be sure to have all your ducks in a row before you come. Check out the FAQ's in the stickies above (here's a link) for more information.


Thanks! Looks like I have a lot of reading to do - very useful resource, and it gets updated often too! 
I guess, we'll finally get use of my husband's EU citizenship! ) Not looking forward to all these bureaucratic procedures we'll have to face, but at least it seems more simplified with one of the spouses being an EU citizen.


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## elamaral

baldilocks said:


> After my m-i-l had lived through a hurricane, standing for (what seemed like) hours holding a window frame in place to stop it blowing in, it finally put the cap on our plans re USA or Europe. It took some 2½-3 years to get the damage to the roof and the Florida room repaired.


Pretty scary! Living through a hurricane - this kind of experience I could definitely do without 

This is another thing which makes Mediterranean area more attractive than coastal Florida (or even California, for that matter) - it's not prone to frequent natural disasters, like hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, fires, floods, etc. I had my share of scary experiences, when we had per-evacuation alerts on our house in Monument, Colorado during recent forest fires in 2012-2013. That was no fun, when you keep packing and unpacking, and keep watching fire forecast every hour, ready to leave the house within minutes! Many of my friends, who live in the area, had to evacuate (with kids, pets, cars packed to the roof), and a couple of co-workers even lost their homes to the fire.


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## elamaral

baldilocks said:


> Off those stickies, read this:
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...-american-brit-wife-england-moving-spain.html


Baldilocks, you are so sweet, you even found a thread with similar family situation! And I can even contact this person, when the time comes, since he successfully (even though stressfully) went though the bureaucratic ordeal of establishing his residency already! I saved this thread and info into my Spain retirement planning file


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## elamaral

Strudelbaum said:


> Exactly my sentiments. Tried it out three years in West Palm Beach, Fla and ended up on Costa del Sol, Fuengirola thirteen years ago. If I ever leave it will be my feet first.


Your short comment was the last drop which over-weighted Spain over Florida as a retirement destination for us! We'll be changing this year vacation plans from Florida to Costa del Sol, with the idea of driving around and get acquainted with the region, see which area appeals most to us. 

Of course, short vacation is not enough, and we'll come a few more times and rent and live there for a few months before we are ready to move. But I am so thankful for this forum, it really helps to figure things out, especially when advice comes from real people with real-life experiences!


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## baldilocks

elamaral said:


> Pretty scary! Living through a hurricane - this kind of experience I could definitely do without
> 
> This is another thing which makes Mediterranean area more attractive than coastal Florida (or even California, for that matter) - it's not prone to frequent natural disasters, like hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, fires, floods, etc. I had my share of scary experiences, when we had per-evacuation alerts on our house in Monument, Colorado during recent forest fires in 2012-2013. That was no fun, when you keep packing and unpacking, and keep watching fire forecast every hour, ready to leave the house within minutes! Many of my friends, who live in the area, had to evacuate (with kids, pets, cars packed to the roof), and a couple of co-workers even lost their homes to the fire.


But we do get a few quakes (fortunately not too bad :fingerscrossed. Take a look on Google Earth at areas you might be interested in and use Street view to have a good look around. You can also set it to show earthquake data. Go to where I live (it is shown above) and you will see a line of them just to the south with dates ranging from 1964 to 2013 with several in 1995, the nearest being just 7.87 km away. Move a bit farther to the east and you will find Lorca which was 5.1 in 2013. In fact if you look at all of Spain and into France you will find seismic activity, much of it quite minor but nevertheless Africa still keeps moving North and helping to create the mountain ranges such as the Sierra Nevada just south of Granada. 
Seismic activity around the world:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Quake_epicenters_1963-98.png

Occasionally there is a bit of a whirlwind/waterspout down on the coast and the odd windstorm inland but you can get them anywhere. Around here the land is not flat enough for tornadoes to form. Oh, nearly forgot, we also get a few fires such as the one that wiped out a lot of the trees in the Natural Park of the Sierras de Cazorla, Segura y las Villas.

Much depends on what you are looking for. There are beaches and water (Atlantic Ocean, Bay of BIscay, Mediterranean Sea). There are National Parks and Natural Parks (the Province I live in, has seven!) so plenty of opportunities to look for wildlife including birds, deer, wild boar, lynxes, etc. The range of vegetation is quite broad and the wild flowers are to be seen to be believed (roadsides and medians are not systematically treated with herbicides). You may not see many of the things you are used to but you will find much more in the way of history here going back to prehistoric man and before. Whereas, for many of us in our personal past, many of these things were "somewhere else", that somewhere else is here and interesting things are readily found such as caves once occupied by the 'Beaker people' (ca 2800-1800 BC) - there is evidence of their presence in the caves just in front of where we live and more recently there are caves and other hideouts once used by guerillas in the Civil War; Roman activity, and that of the early Iberian peoples; Visgothic remains, and some of the Moorish architecture is quite remarkable. You will be able to spend the rest of your life here exploring all that the Iberian peninsula has to offer and still not see it all.


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## Isobella

elamaral said:


> Pretty scary! Living through a hurricane - this kind of experience I could definitely do without
> 
> This is another thing which makes Mediterranean area more attractive than coastal Florida (or even California, for that matter) - it's not prone to frequent natural disasters, like hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, fires, floods, etc. I had my share of scary experiences, when we had per-evacuation alerts on our house in Monument, Colorado during recent forest fires in 2012-2013. That was no fun, when you keep packing and unpacking, and keep watching fire forecast every hour, ready to leave the house within minutes! Many of my friends, who live in the area, had to evacuate (with kids, pets, cars packed to the roof), and a couple of co-workers even lost their homes to the fire.


 There has been quite a few serious fires in Andalucia over the years. A dogs home had to be evacuated once. Likewise floods. It is a case of the grass is always greener. The American forums are full of people from the UK jumping through hoops to get a visa.


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## elamaral

Isobella said:


> There has been quite a few serious fires in Andalucia over the years. A dogs home had to be evacuated once. Likewise floods. It is a case of the grass is always greener. The American forums are full of people from the UK jumping through hoops to get a visa.


Yes, the grass is always greener on the other side, isn't it? 
I guess, there is no completely perfect place, there will always be something not quiet right, one just need to choose what's more important for them. 

I am not surprised that many people are eager to move to United States (or Canada) - but those are mostly young people who want to move to the "Land of opportunity", follow "American dream". And it's true, that there are more opportunities in the US, easier to find a job, salaries for educated professionals are much higher in comparison with Europe; my husband and I moved to the US many years ago for exactly these reasons. So, I truly believe that if you are young and need to make a career, earn good living, - US is the far better choice. It will be better for our children to stay in the United States and live and work here while they are young. 

For us it is different. We have good well-paid jobs in the US, so in a way fulfilled the "American dream" part. Now we are approaching the "retirement" stage of our lives. Will the retired life be as interesting and fulfilling for us staying in the US as opposed to Europe? Being European born and raised, both my husband and I still have European mentality, more attracted to European culture and life style. Life in the United States in much simpler and easier in many aspects, we realize this. We both have families in Europe, we are familiar with everyday life, problems, and drawbacks. So, it's a personal choice for everybody. It's very possible that I may be mistaken, and maybe by now we are more "Americanized" than we realize. But it's not like we are going to burn the bridges by coming to live in Spain, - we plan to rent for a year or so, before moving, see how we like it, and if it's what we really want, then we''ll buy the house and move permanently. And even then, if after few years we don't like it, - we can always move back to States... But we need to try, - if we don't try - how would we know if we made the right choice?


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## xabiaxica

elamaral said:


> Pretty scary! Living through a hurricane - this kind of experience I could definitely do without
> 
> This is another thing which makes Mediterranean area more attractive than coastal Florida (or even California, for that matter) - it's not prone to frequent natural disasters, like hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, fires, floods, etc. I had my share of scary experiences, when we had per-evacuation alerts on our house in Monument, Colorado during recent forest fires in 2012-2013. That was no fun, when you keep packing and unpacking, and keep watching fire forecast every hour, ready to leave the house within minutes! Many of my friends, who live in the area, had to evacuate (with kids, pets, cars packed to the roof), and a couple of co-workers even lost their homes to the fire.


in the 11 years we've been here, on the Med coast, we've had tornadoes & damaging high winds every winter, a couple of serious floods & one very bad forest fire which was very close to where we live

& we get earth tremors so often we barely notice them


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## elamaral

xabiachica said:


> in the 11 years we've been here, on the Med coast, we've had tornadoes & damaging high winds every winter, a couple of serious floods & one very bad forest fire which was very close to where we live
> 
> & we get earth tremors so often we barely notice them


Oh-oh... didn't realize that it's so bad. I guess, everybody is watching their local weather but not very well aware what's happening anywhere else (unless it's a really major disaster)! Is there area along the coast that is relatively calm historically, is it safer to live a bit further inland?


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## 213979

elamaral said:


> Life in the United States in much simpler and easier in many aspects, we realize this. We both have families in Europe, we are familiar with everyday life, problems, and drawbacks. So, it's a personal choice for everybody. It's very possible that I may be mistaken, and maybe by now we are more "Americanized" than we realize. But it's not like we are going to burn the bridges by coming to live in Spain, - we plan to rent for a year or so, before moving, see how we like it, and if it's what we really want, then we''ll buy the house and move permanently. And even then, if after few years we don't like it, - we can always move back to States... But we need to try, - if we don't try - how would we know if we made the right choice?


I am totally amazed that you say life is easier in the US. What makes you say that? I feel quite differently.


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## xabiaxica

elamaral said:


> Oh-oh... didn't realize that it's so bad. I guess, everybody is watching their local weather but not very well aware what's happening anywhere else (unless it's a really major disaster)! Is there area along the coast that is relatively calm historically, is it safer to live a bit further inland?


lol

I just read back what I wrote & thought 'OMG that sounds terrifying!'

but tbh, although it's true, it doesn't actually feel that bad....

this stretch of coast is on a fault line, so it's true that we get lots of tremors - but they largely go completely unnoticed

the high winds are usually for a day or so at a time - so again, barely impact on daily life unless you suffer property damage

thankfully the floods are rare, as are the serious fires - but it wouldn't be accurate to say they don't happen


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## elamaral

baldilocks said:


> But we do get a few quakes (fortunately not too bad :fingerscrossed. Take a look on Google Earth at areas you might be interested in and use Street view to have a good look around. You can also set it to show earthquake data. Go to where I live (it is shown above) and you will see a line of them just to the south with dates ranging from 1964 to 2013 with several in 1995, the nearest being just 7.87 km away. Move a bit farther to the east and you will find Lorca which was 5.1 in 2013. In fact if you look at all of Spain and into France you will find seismic activity, much of it quite minor but nevertheless Africa still keeps moving North and helping to create the mountain ranges such as the Sierra Nevada just south of Granada.
> Seismic activity around the world:File:Quake epicenters 1963-98.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Occasionally there is a bit of a whirlwind/waterspout down on the coast and the odd windstorm inland but you can get them anywhere. Around here the land is not flat enough for tornadoes to form. Oh, nearly forgot, we also get a few fires such as the one that wiped out a lot of the trees in the Natural Park of the Sierras de Cazorla, Segura y las Villas.
> 
> Much depends on what you are looking for. There are beaches and water (Atlantic Ocean, Bay of BIscay, Mediterranean Sea). There are National Parks and Natural Parks (the Province I live in, has seven!) so plenty of opportunities to look for wildlife including birds, deer, wild boar, lynxes, etc. The range of vegetation is quite broad and the wild flowers are to be seen to be believed (roadsides and medians are not systematically treated with herbicides). You may not see many of the things you are used to but you will find much more in the way of history here going back to prehistoric man and before. Whereas, for many of us in our personal past, many of these things were "somewhere else", that somewhere else is here and interesting things are readily found such as caves once occupied by the 'Beaker people' (ca 2800-1800 BC) - there is evidence of their presence in the caves just in front of where we live and more recently there are caves and other hideouts once used by guerillas in the Civil War; Roman activity, and that of the early Iberian peoples; Visgothic remains, and some of the Moorish architecture is quite remarkable. You will be able to spend the rest of your life here exploring all that the Iberian peninsula has to offer and still not see it all.


It looks like, if we want to live close to the coast, we'll have to accept the possibility of either quakes and storms (Mediterranean, California, Atlantic) or tornadoes, floods, and hurricanes (Florida, Golf Coast, Islands). Hopefully, they won't be too frequent and destructive! Living in-land sounds safer, but then you still can have tornadoes, floods, and fires! I guess, out of all evils we'll need to pick the most appealing to us 

We admire the Mediterranean nature and the whole ambiance of the coastal area (I always dreamed of living there one day) - no matter where we go - Cote d'Asur, coastal Italy or Spain - I am just in ave of these areas! And, besides nature, there is so much history, beautiful architecture (my favorites are the medieval architecture and art nouveau/deco periods of which they have plenty in Spain), so much to see! Just during our last 5-day visit to Costa Brava area a few years back, we managed to visit so many interesting places, even with kids on a tow: Dali's museum in Figueres, Dali's house in Portlligat, Barcelona (Barri Gotic, Ramblas, Gaudi's architectural sites and gardens, beautiful medieval towns away from tourist routes) - I just wish we had more time to stay at every place and enjoy them longer. To us, short visits to Europe it's like a tease, - you always have a feeling that you rushed through places and didn't get to enjoy and explore them at a slower paste...


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## elamaral

xabiachica said:


> lol
> 
> I just read back what I wrote & thought 'OMG that sounds terrifying!'
> 
> but tbh, although it's true, it doesn't actually feel that bad....
> 
> this stretch of coast is on a fault line, so it's true that we get lots of tremors - but they largely go completely unnoticed
> 
> the high winds are usually for a day or so at a time - so again, barely impact on daily life unless you suffer property damage
> 
> thankfully the floods are rare, as are the serious fires - but it wouldn't be accurate to say they don't happen


Don't worry, - you didn't discourage me in any way! I know that even though there is a seismic activity present in the area, it's rather mild, - after all, all these beautiful castles and old towns are still standing strong during so many centuries! :fingerscrossed: Same goes for fires - you can get them anywhere; where we live in Black Forest area, Colorado (and we live in the wooded area), there were no any damaging fires for decades here, but in 2012-2013 we got major hard-to-contain wildfires two years in a row, which burnt over 50 sq miles of forest and over 1000 houses. So, you never know...


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## elamaral

elenetxu said:


> I am totally amazed that you say life is easier in the US. What makes you say that? I feel quite differently.


Life in many aspects being easier in the US - this is an impression I got reading through blogs, forums, talking to my husband's French relatives and friends. I guess, some things are simpler in the US and some are in Spain. For different people some things overweight others, like:

1. Overall, bureaucracy is worse in Spain: in the US it's relatively easy and quick to get a driving license, collect, renew documents, register business, apply for residency (I went though the immigration processes in both Canada and US, and even though it took time, we didn't get mixed messages about which documents to submit, all instructions were well outlined and pretty straight-forward, available on-line); many document renewals are done on-line, also buying/selling a house is simpler, there is on-line records of the house history on assessor's office websites which anyone can view, easy to get reliable house inspections and assessments, when buying a house. I heard, it's not as reliable and simple in Spain, since many people got burnt by buying properties build in non-permitted areas, or house inspection not done properly, or when they gave offer and offer was accepted, a house was sold to somebody else last minute, or the seller can request (through the lawyer!) to put a lower selling price on the house purchase documents, so they pay less taxes.

2. Finding a job is easier in the US (unemployment rate is pretty low);

3. Taxation is bad in the US, but still more reasonable than in Spain, income tax rates are lower (especially for retirees, where in some states, like Florida, there is no state income tax on retirement); on another hand, looks like property taxes are lower in Spain.

4. Services and more efficient and easy to access in the us: when you need to fix something in the house, or replace appliances, heater, etc. - they can come within hours, and most of the time fix on a first visit. Is it the same in Spain?

5. Consumer goods - many are cheaper and wider variety in the US, especially with on-line ordering options. Most of the major department stores have online ordering option as well, so no matter where you live in the US (even in the boonies), you still can get a fast and efficient delivery. And if something does not work for you or you don't like the item, - you can easily return it - no questions asked, and they will issue a full refund right away. It's not as simple in Europe, I know. For example, even small thing (but important to us being crazy cat lovers) - we have 2 cats and there is a very good selection of cat litters of any kind, cat suppliers, and organic locally made cat food that we buy for our furry babies. Meanwhile, my husband's mother lives in France, and she also has two cats. On our last visit, I was helping her to clean cats' litter box and noticed that she's using non-clumping cat litter, so I suggested to go and buy clumping cat litter for her, so it's easier to clean and she does not need to empty cat litter box with each cleaning. So we went to the big department store, close to where she lives, and looked for such cat litter. There was only one selection, costs twice as much as in the US, and when we brought it home and tried it - it didn't clump as well as the litter we use for our cats in States... So small things like this. I also checked on the Amazon.fr - and the selection is also very limited (again, only one variety) and super-expensive. Sorry, for so many details, - just wanted to show you how my perception was forming when comparing Europe and States.

Having said that, if we were to move to Spain, many things listed above won't longer be important to us (like finding a job, or opening a business), and some things will be better: much cheaper medical insurance, closeness of interesting sites/cities to visit (in the US everything is huge distance for one place to another, and as far as architecture/sightseeing - far not as diverse and interesting as in Europe). 

What about you - do you have a different perception? In which ways life seems easier for you in Spain? What you prefer in Spain, and which things you are missing from the US?


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## kalohi

elamaral said:


> Life in many aspects being easier in the US - this is an impression I got reading through blogs, forums, talking to my husband's French relatives and friends. I guess, some things are simpler in the US and some are in Spain. For different people some things overweight others, like:
> 
> 1. Overall, bureaucracy is worse in Spain: in the US it's relatively easy and quick to get a driving license, collect, renew documents, register business, apply for residency (I went though the immigration processes in both Canada and US, and even though it took time, we didn't get mixed messages about which documents to submit, all instructions were well outlined and pretty straight-forward, available on-line); many document renewals are done on-line, also buying/selling a house is simpler, there is on-line records of the house history on assessor's office websites which anyone can view, easy to get reliable house inspections and assessments, when buying a house. I heard, it's not as reliable and simple in Spain, since many people got burnt by buying properties build in non-permitted areas, or house inspection not done properly, or when they gave offer and offer was accepted, a house was sold to somebody else last minute, or the seller can request (through the lawyer!) to put a lower selling price on the house purchase documents, so they pay less taxes.


I agree with this. Although when we bought our house (22 years ago) it was very straight forward and un-problematic. It was a new build so maybe that had something to do with it being so easy. 



elamaral said:


> 2. Finding a job is easier in the US (unemployment rate is pretty low);


Of course this is undeniably true.



elamaral said:


> 3. Taxation is bad in the US, but still more reasonable than in Spain, income tax rates are lower (especially for retirees, where in some states, like Florida, there is no state income tax on retirement); on another hand, looks like property taxes are lower in Spain.


Well, this is kind of my pet peeve so I have to comment. Yes, the tax rate is lower in the US. But the fact that a non-resident US citizen has to pay US taxes and file US financial statements (FBAR/FACTA) every year is an abomination. No matter where in the world you live you will not get out of answering to the IRS.  And depending on what state you were resident in before moving abroad you will also have to continue paying state income tax. 



elamaral said:


> 4. Services and more efficient and easy to access in the us: when you need to fix something in the house, or replace appliances, heater, etc. - they can come within hours, and most of the time fix on a first visit. Is it the same in Spain?


 I've never had a problem getting things fixed right away. And it's MUCH MUCH cheaper here. 



elamaral said:


> 5. Consumer goods - many are cheaper and wider variety in the US, especially with on-line ordering options. Most of the major department stores have online ordering option as well, so no matter where you live in the US (even in the boonies), you still can get a fast and efficient delivery. And if something does not work for you or you don't like the item, - you can easily return it - no questions asked, and they will issue a full refund right away. It's not as simple in Europe, I know. For example, even small thing (but important to us being crazy cat lovers) - we have 2 cats and there is a very good selection of cat litters of any kind, cat suppliers, and organic locally made cat food that we buy for our furry babies. Meanwhile, my husband's mother lives in France, and she also has two cats. On our last visit, I was helping her to clean cats' litter box and noticed that she's using non-clumping cat litter, so I suggested to go and buy clumping cat litter for her, so it's easier to clean and she does not need to empty cat litter box with each cleaning. So we went to the big department store, close to where she lives, and looked for such cat litter. There was only one selection, costs twice as much as in the US, and when we brought it home and tried it - it didn't clump as well as the litter we use for our cats in States... So small things like this. I also checked on the Amazon.fr - and the selection is also very limited (again, only one variety) and super-expensive. Sorry, for so many details, - just wanted to show you how my perception was forming when comparing Europe and States.


No question, the US is a consumer society so there is more variety of goods and often at better prices. There are more and more online ordering options available here but I don't think people take advantage of them as much as Americans do.



elamaral said:


> Having said that, if we were to move to Spain, many things listed above won't longer be important to us (like finding a job, or opening a business), and some things will be better: much cheaper medical insurance, closeness of interesting sites/cities to visit (in the US everything is huge distance for one place to another, and as far as architecture/sightseeing - far not as diverse and interesting as in Europe).


Yep, Spain definitely wins out on these.



elamaral said:


> What about you - do you have a different perception? In which ways life seems easier for you in Spain? What you prefer in Spain, and which things you are missing from the US?


What I miss the most is family. There's no replacement in Spain for that.


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## baldilocks

I agree with much of what has been said by both of you (Elamaral, kalohi) and would add:

Pace of life in Spain is much slower and everybody (at least where we live) is much more relaxed.

We lived in FL and six lane divided highways were chock-a-block with fast moving traffic, often not driven very well. Here we have much more single carriageway (two-way traffic) and while there are a few tear-abouts (late for work) it is much more pleasant to drive with people generally keeping to the speed limits. Speed limits, here, are for a reason depending on the type of road and road conditions, unlike in the States where, simply because a road has passed from one local authority's area into another, the speed limit changes. There was one road we used in FL that passed from three different "cities" to others in the space of about 200 yards and the limit went from 60 to 40 to 50 with no hazard other than a police speed trap to catch the unwary. 

There is very little 24-hour shopping here and most shops (except in tourist areas) do not open on Sunday (often closing 2pm Saturday through 9.30 Monday) but once you get used to that, it is no bad thing having enforced rest from hustle and bustle for about 36 hours each weekend and shop staff do get to spend some time with family. 

There is, in general, much less stress, people are more relaxed, civil and friendly. Forget about American ideas of "personal space" they don't exist here - from the kiss-kiss between, and with, ladies (I even get kissed by the nuns!) to men who while shaking right hands, often clasp your right shoulder with their left hands (a sort of half-hug) or giving a full hug with an 'air kiss' and these may often only be acquaintances rather than relatives. Such warmth and affection, a little alarming at first, becomes reassuring when you realise that there are no ulterior motives, it is just people being pleased to see each other and happy in each others' company.

On the commercial side, there is far less pressure (at least here) to have the latest, most expensive, flashiest anything. As an example, some 50% of the cars in my road are more than 14 years old, not because people are too poor to buy new but because there is less pressure to do so and if the old one does what is required, why change it? There are, also, far fewer "flashy" vehicles around and people here tend to go for the more practical. When we first arrived, I looked at the vehicles I saw on the roads, to see which were the most common and, reasoning that they were the most common because they were the most suitable for the area, and we based our purchase on that.

I should add that I can only speak for what is the case in this area which is more rural - our village has a population of about 5,000, the nearest town (14km away) has a population of 21,000, the next nearest town (17km away) has 11,000 but both of those towns have very good hospitals. Our medical centre is manned 24 hours a day and outside normal hours has on duty, a doctor, a nurse and a driver plus a fully equipped ambulance. For extremely urgent cases there is also a helipad to facilitate medevac to the Provincial hospital some 80km away by road.

Culturally Spain has a great deal to offer, as you are probably aware, all of which is the real thing not a Disney make-believe version.

Having lived in both countries (USA and Spain) plus the UK and Colombia, Spain has the best of all worlds and of course has the advantage, that for something completely different you only have to drive to France or Italy or Germany or Switzerland or Austria or UK or... or of course you could fly or take a boat or walk!


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## Isobella

I think you can always justify your decision whichever country you lay your hat. The bottom line is what suits you. There are always pros and cons. America is a vast place and to compare all of it with Disney is unfair as it is so diverse. Culture is different things to different people, every country has some

The kissy thing I find a bit false, especially if eg. 4 people are meeting another 4 and they all stand in a line to air blow. It is getting the same in the UK now. I really don't want to kiss my neighbour when walking the dog just because I haven't seen her for a few days


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## skip o

I agree with that big list of pros and cons between the US and Spain. I'll add that despite the fact that US taxes me no matter where I live, I prefer the US tax system over the Spanish tax system hands down.

I make 0 euros a year in Spain, and Spain will tax the holy hell out of my US income as soon as I am a tax resident. If one spouse makes all the money, the US taxes waaaaaay less than Spain does. Spain's treatment of inheritance is comparatively awful. Spain's tax system is so unclear that no two accountants seem to ever give the same numbers. Spain has a wealth tax, despite it doing nothing for the crappy economy. 

Spain's tax system is so much more aggressive than the US, and what does the Spanish government have to show for it? Massive unemployment and an awful economy.


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## elamaral

Well, this is kind of my pet peeve so I have to comment. Yes, the tax rate is lower in the US. But the fact that a non-resident US citizen has to pay US taxes and file US financial statements (FBAR/FACTA) every year is an abomination. No matter where in the world you live you will not get out of answering to the IRS.  And depending on what state you were resident in before moving abroad you will also have to continue paying state income tax. 



> Yes, this will be a major headache to keep filing taxes in both countries for the whole time living in Spain! Hopefully, thanks to double-taxation agreement, we'll be exempt from US tax payments while living is Spain (our pension income will be below expat tax break). I never heard that we'll still need to pay state taxes if we don't live in this state any longer and won't longer have property there. Maybe this applies for those who still have properties in these states?


 I've never had a problem getting things fixed right away. And it's MUCH MUCH cheaper here. 



> Good to hear! I don't have any relatives or friends living in Spain, but heard lots of horror stories about cheating and sloppy home repair companies form my French mother-in-law. Maybe it's just her personal experience, many people try to take advantage of elderly there, it seems.



What I miss the most is family. There's no replacement in Spain for that.
[/QUOTE]



> This is one of the major drawbacks, moving to another country and be far from your children. Hopefully, they will come to visit often, once we move to some nice place close to the beach , like us - we try to visit our family in Europe as often as we can, just wish I had more vacation time (have only 2 weeks of vacation now at my job in the US)


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## elamaral

baldilocks said:


> I agree with much of what has been said by both of you (Elamaral, kalohi) and would add:
> 
> Pace of life in Spain is much slower and everybody (at least where we live) is much more relaxed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You cannot imagine, how we crave for a slower pace of life! It seems like we are in constant race now both at work and after work too. Cannot wait to retire and take it easy!
> 
> 
> 
> We lived in FL and six lane divided highways were chock-a-block with fast moving traffic, often not driven very well. Here we have much more single carriageway (two-way traffic) and while there are a few tear-abouts (late for work) it is much more pleasant to drive with people generally keeping to the speed limits. Speed limits, here, are for a reason depending on the type of road and road conditions, unlike in the States where, simply because a road has passed from one local authority's area into another, the speed limit changes. There was one road we used in FL that passed from three different "cities" to others in the space of about 200 yards and the limit went from 60 to 40 to 50 with no hazard other than a police speed trap to catch the unwary.
> 
> There is very little 24-hour shopping here and most shops (except in tourist areas) do not open on Sunday (often closing 2pm Saturday through 9.30 Monday) but once you get used to that, it is no bad thing having enforced rest from hustle and bustle for about 36 hours each weekend and shop staff do get to spend some time with family.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't mind stores being closed on Sundays. I don't go shopping on Sundays too often even here, in States. Sunday is a staying at home and resting day for me (even though there is also some housework to be done anyway .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is, in general, much less stress, people are more relaxed, civil and friendly. Forget about American ideas of "personal space" they don't exist here - from the kiss-kiss between, and with, ladies (I even get kissed by the nuns!) to men who while shaking right hands, often clasp your right shoulder with their left hands (a sort of half-hug) or giving a full hug with an 'air kiss' and these may often only be acquaintances rather than relatives. Such warmth and affection, a little alarming at first, becomes reassuring when you realise that there are no ulterior motives, it is just people being pleased to see each other and happy in each others' company.
> 
> On the commercial side, there is far less pressure (at least here) to have the latest, most expensive, flashiest anything. As an example, some 50% of the cars in my road are more than 14 years old, not because people are too poor to buy new but because there is less pressure to do so and if the old one does what is required, why change it? There are, also, far fewer "flashy" vehicles around and people here tend to go for the more practical. When we first arrived, I looked at the vehicles I saw on the roads, to see which were the most common and, reasoning that they were the most common because they were the most suitable for the area, and we based our purchase on that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Being pressured to have the most recent, more expensive STUFF (or at least having a perception that you have to have it, otherwise you won't be respected) - I think it's a big city thing, or else, some personal complexes. We live in a rather small town in Colorado, and it's also very casual here. Sometimes, even too casual, when you can see people in their sweatpants or even pajamas in the Walmart! I work in the office, and 15 years back we had to dress "business-casual" and had "Friday jeans" day. Now, it's casual any day. People come in flip flops and shorts to the office in summer, and wear jeans all-year round (I am in IT though, it's different for people working at banks, law offices, etc.) I haven't worn my high heels more than 3-4 times, since I moved to Colorado from Toronto!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I should add that I can only speak for what is the case in this area which is more rural - our village has a population of about 5,000, the nearest town (14km away) has a population of 21,000, the next nearest town (17km away) has 11,000 but both of those towns have very good hospitals. Our medical centre is manned 24 hours a day and outside normal hours has on duty, a doctor, a nurse and a driver plus a fully equipped ambulance. For extremely urgent cases there is also a helipad to facilitate medevac to the Provincial hospital some 80km away by road.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is very good to hear. Despite all different opinions on other subjects, it seems like everybody is very happy with Spanish healthcare system!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Culturally Spain has a great deal to offer, as you are probably aware, all of which is the real thing not a Disney make-believe version.
> 
> Having lived in both countries (USA and Spain) plus the UK and Colombia, Spain has the best of all worlds and of course has the advantage, that for something completely different you only have to drive to France or Italy or Germany or Switzerland or Austria or UK or... or of course you could fly or take a boat or walk!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Totally agree on this, - the proximity of so many diverse countries and cultures, and possibility to visit them without having to fly for 14-16 hours from another end of the world and spending tons of money along the way - is a BIG plus!/QUOTE]
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## baldilocks

> Good to hear! I don't have any relatives or friends living in Spain, but heard lots of horror stories about cheating and sloppy home repair companies form my French mother-in-law. Maybe it's just her personal experience, many people try to take advantage of elderly there, it seems.


You seem to have got the 'quote' option back to front. (I often have problems getting things right [and you guess how long I've been here from the number of posts] plus I'll claim the my age doesn't help). 

But does your French m-i-l live in Spain or France? The only verifiable stories of sloppy home repairs and cheating that we've heard or actually encountered here in Spain, have been those committed by immigrants. Those who prior to their arrival had only ever done a bit of "do-it-yourself" suddenly become builders; those who have changed an electrical plug or a light bulb - become electricians; changed a tap-washer become plumbers, etc.

Why do these people get employed - one reason only - they speak the same lingo! English-speakers are so afraid of learning another language that they are terrified of dealing with a Spanish contractor because they don't know what he is saying so they turn to the guy they can understand whose only qualification as far as doing what the 'victim' wants, is he speaks English. 

They never think to engage a qualified translator/interpreter and a qualified Spanish builder who knows what he is doing.


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## elamaral

baldilocks said:


> You seem to have got the 'quote' option back to front. (I often have problems getting things right [and you guess how long I've been here from the number of posts] plus I'll claim the my age doesn't help).
> 
> But does your French m-i-l live in Spain or France? The only verifiable stories of sloppy home repairs and cheating that we've heard or actually encountered here in Spain, have been those committed by immigrants. Those who prior to their arrival had only ever done a bit of "do-it-yourself" suddenly become builders; those who have changed an electrical plug or a light bulb - become electricians; changed a tap-washer become plumbers, etc.
> 
> Why do these people get employed - one reason only - they speak the same lingo! English-speakers are so afraid of learning another language that they are terrified of dealing with a Spanish contractor because they don't know what he is saying so they turn to the guy they can understand whose only qualification as far as doing what the 'victim' wants, is he speaks English.
> 
> They never think to engage a qualified translator/interpreter and a qualified Spanish builder who knows what he is doing.


Sorry, couldn't get to replying earlier... was away on vacation. 
Yup, I messed up the quotes in my previous reply - don't really like the way this website is designed - it should be a simple multilevel chain of replies to any post, like most other blogs have :confused2:

About my m-i-l: she lives in France, so all her bad encounters with handymen happened in France. We don't have any relatives living in Spain, unfortunately, so you sharing your experiences are greatly appreciated! I guess, it's a challenge to find a good and honest repair men (or car mechanic), doesn't matter in which country you live! We are getting ours here, in States, by recommendation from friends or through ads on Craigslist. We had mixed experiences from both resources. But thanks for advice! I guess, we better learn some Spanish before we move, so we are not confined to only English-speaking community...


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## baldilocks

elamaral said:


> Sorry, couldn't get to replying earlier... was away on vacation.
> Yup, I messed up the quotes in my previous reply - don't really like the way this website is designed - it should be a simple multilevel chain of replies to any post, like most other blogs have :confused2:
> 
> About my m-i-l: she lives in France, so all her bad encounters with handymen happened in France. We don't have any relatives living in Spain, unfortunately, so you sharing your experiences are greatly appreciated! I guess, it's a challenge to find a good and honest repair men (or car mechanic), doesn't matter in which country you live! We are getting ours here, in States, by recommendation from friends or through ads on Craigslist. We had mixed experiences from both resources. But thanks for advice! I guess, we better learn some Spanish before we move, so we are not confined to only English-speaking community...


We have found the best options for:

Household work (plumbing, building, electrician) - ask a few of the neighbours (preferably unrelated), and you will get a consensus of opinion that will exclude, where possible, family members.
Motor repairs/purchases - go to the main dealer for whatever marque you are driving. Their franchise (or loss of) counts for a lot and they will be less likely to deal you a b*m hand. Many, you will find will be quite happy to do minor things for free or very little cost, for example, changing a light bulb (some vehicles require you to be a contortionist) and apart from the cost of the bulb, it will probably be done with zero cost for the labour and while-you-wait. At least this has been our experience.


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## Dionysus

*Update?*

For me, this thread has been a great read. Thank you all, especially Elamaral. I was wondering, have you any update on your plans, or learned anything new to add to this thread?

I was born and raised in the US, and I agree with what you have said regarding employment being better in the US. Also, the taxes are less in the US, but other things also cost more, just as you noted.

My wife and I are headed into the sunset of our careers, well, I am more than she is. I don't plan to work when I quit my job, but my wife still wants to work, and it won't hurt for her to do so, but we both are fully aware of the unattractive truth about the employment outlook in Spain. I say quit because I cannot technically retire (withdraw from retirement accounts) until I am 59 1/2 years of age.

In order to fulfill our "dreams", we would have to be able to live off of savings, and Roth IRAs for about five to six years, or so. I can begin to tap into my retirement accounts after that. On paper it is feasible, but we need more data. Thanks again!

What I am still trying to do is get a grasp on tax obligations. We would have income in the form of rental income from properties we own, and the income tax rates are certainly higher in Spain than the US (again, as you have already noted).

I think we will need to seek out the advice of a Tax Attorney to sort all of this out. I think people who are already retired can make the decision a lot easier than people in our situation. We have a harder time making a decision because we still have dependent children. Thanks again!


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## Pazcat

Well old thread is old thread but I think it is a good example of differing views, we are a long way from retirement but if the day comes and a choice between the US and Spain was given to us I think the US would be a clear winner(not first choice maybe but between those two at least).

If I had the choice I'd choose Hawaii or Alaska though.


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## Dionysus

*Wife...*



Pazcat said:


> Well old thread is old thread but I think it is a good example of differing views, we are a long way from retirement but if the day comes and a choice between the US and Spain was given to us I think the US would be a clear winner(not first choice maybe but between those two at least).
> 
> If I had the choice I'd choose Hawaii or Alaska though.


Hello Pazcat... I do appreciate the opportunities we have in the US; the unemployment rate is somewhere around 5%, and even lower in some areas, yet some still complain. 

I have made a few posts, and sent some IMs to people, but I should note in this thread that my wife is originally from Barcelona. Her family emigrated to the US in the mid 80's, so she lived there until she was 10, and still has a few relatives there.

Also, as Elmaral, we are not so much concerned about employment, or to save for retirement, we've pretty much have that accounted for already, though my wife still has several more years to go before she wants to quit working... I am ready! But if like you, people want employment opportunities, then I do think that the US has them. And from my research, it seems so much easier to get into, and stay in the US, and work, given that the current political winds favor immigrants (illegal, or not!). Living in the US and listening to the debate, you'd think that the US was the hardest to get into... it may be so, I'm seeing it from the inside, out and it seems other countries have more red tape.

We can throw a dart on a map of the US and retire where it lands, but as others have mentioned, each has their own reasons for wanting to retire in one location. Since about 1997, we've traveled to Spain yearly until 2014, now that the children are older and involved in activities in the summer, we decided to go every other year, so 2016 will be another week vacation to Spain, and other countries in the area. If we move, we hope to do so in 2017.

This year will be different though, instead of 'vacationing', we will be scouting.


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## Dionysus

Hmm... Can't edit after fifteen minutes? 'Seems too short! 

Anyway, I meant to say six week vacation, not a week vacation. Not that it matters, but I know someone will probably reply and say one week is too short.


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## Pazcat

But if I was retiring I wouldn't need any employment so that doesn't even get factored in to the equation.


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## baldilocks

The US was one of our options since we had relatives and family links (historically- the m-i-l is a Texan) and we even had a property there (originally bought for the in-laws to live in.) BUT what ruled it out was the astronomical cost of health care, the traffic congestion/pollution and if you lived in a built-up area. there was nowhere you could walk safely - even to get to a nearby shop, you had to take the car. In addition, living there, my pension would have been fixed with no annual increases.

No for us, Spain is a far better choice, even with the m-i-l (she gets no pension) in tow.


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## Dionysus

*Insurance...*



baldilocks said:


> The US was one of our options since we had relatives and family links (historically- the m-i-l is a Texan) and we even had a property there (originally bought for the in-laws to live in.) BUT what ruled it out was the astronomical cost of health care, the traffic congestion/pollution and if you lived in a built-up area. there was nowhere you could walk safely - even to get to a nearby shop, you had to take the car. In addition, living there, my pension would have been fixed with no annual increases.
> 
> No for us, Spain is a far better choice, even with the m-i-l (she gets no pension) in tow.


Hello Baldilocks. Yes, you are correct about insurance being expensive in the US; it has historically been high as the US did not offer universal health care coverage prior to 2010, but the Afordable Care Act made it more affordable to people, even subsidized it in some cases. It is not yet perfect and there are unintended consequences, but those are still being worked out.

Also, I'm not sure about other countries, but in the US, most big corporations will offer healthcare coverage for a discount if one retires from the company after so many years, and the person has reached a certain age. This is where I am at, I have all my points, and am just two years away from the age requirement to receive the full healthcare coverage at the current rate I am paying, which now is about $150US per month for a family of six. The benefits are good where I work, which is an Oil and Gas company. It is not that cheap otherwise, so I do get your point.

Re walking. Most US cities evolved around the automobile, and so it is reflected in how most people live. You have the true urban areas of the large cities, but most of the country is not like that. This is one thing my wife and I agree upon; we really appreciate the fact that we can leave Houston and land anywhere in Europe, and use rail to get everywhere, including to my wife's uncle's flat in Sitges which is right across the street in front of the rail station.


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## Rabbitcat

Surely the residency requirements make it a non runner for many Europeans


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## BigMacAK

Pazcat said:


> Well old thread is old thread but I think it is a good example of differing views, we are a long way from retirement but if the day comes and a choice between the US and Spain was given to us I think the US would be a clear winner(not first choice maybe but between those two at least).
> 
> If I had the choice I'd choose Hawaii or Alaska though.


Hi Pazcat

I live in Alaska now and am planning on retirement in Spain. Alaska is getting to be a very hard place to retire. I will give you a little current info on Alaska. 

1# medical costs are one of the highest in the country, many Alaskans are being forced to get medical procedures done in Seattle because of costs. As an example knee replacement in AK is over $10K while in Seattle it is 2K. We are starting to come to the conclusion that our home base probably cannot be AK. 

2# The low price of oil is putting income tax/sales tax/ and other taxes on the table for the first time. The sad truth of medical care in the USA it that they want to do their best to bankrupt you if you ever get sick. 

3# Property taxes are very high in may Alaska cities because there has not been any other taxes over they years. So the cost of govt only could increase by means of property taxes. 

4# If you are a US citizen and have to have medicare, forget about keeping or finding a doctor to take you on. They simply don't take medicare patients. 

5# Private health insurance is the one one of the highest in the country thus the world.

6# Low oil is gutting services in AK including schools and University system. 

7# flying out of Alaska is very expensive, especially during winter when a flight to Seattle is over $400 and often $700. 

We are looking to retire in Spain to give ourselves a little dignity in retirement. We also are very attracted to the European outlook on life as compared to the USA. Who knows what life brings but this is our plan/Dream for right now and its always good to keep dreaming. 

Cheers 
it has been cool and raining the last month... Spain is looking better and better lol


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## dancebert

elamaral said:


> Thanks for the info! It's very helpful! For tax question, I will try to find out more, but eventually, we'll have to talk to tax layer, who specializes in both US and Spanish tax law. Question about 401K - it was from me BTW  - didn't get any concrete answer from anybody - looks like people prefer to keep it secret!


IRAs and 401ks, both traditional and Roth, are taxed as pension funds, IMHO. I posted links to sources in another thread: http://www.expatforum.com/expats/ex...sh-taxation-ira-withdrawals.html#post11483994

About that last link in my post. It explains how one can claim a credit on their US taxes for the Spanish taxes on pensions. When I first read it, the method sounded far fetched. Then I googled the IRS forms mentioned in the text and comments. Those forms exist and are intended to be used as the blogger described. See IRS form 1116 Instructions, Categories of Income, Section d. Certain Income Re-Sourced by Treaty.

Foreign pensions being highly taxed in Spain aren't as bad as it seems - and one can get advice on it from a US tax specialist. Now if I could just find a US citizen in Spain with actual experience doing it...

As for US taxpayers keeping it secret. Seems to me given the forms, instructions and laws are in Spanish and most tax advice in English on the net is rewritten cut-n-paste followed by advice to talk to a professional, they pay professionals to do their taxes. Why give away the secrets for free?


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## dancebert

dancebert said:


> IRAs and 401ks, both traditional and Roth, are taxed as pension funds, IMHO. I posted links to sources in another thread: http://www.expatforum.com/expats/ex...sh-taxation-ira-withdrawals.html#post11483994


Oops. In the Dept of Treasury Technical Explanation document linked from the above link, IRS code 408 means traditional individual IRAs, 408(A) to Roth individual IRAs.


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## icaru

The US embassy in Madrid gave me some names of tax accountants familiar with both Spanish and US tax forms. I did contact one of them, his prices were reasonable, we didn't proceed because we decided to possibly renounce our residence permit. Reason: no matter how much you resource, if you are retired you will still end up paying more tax in Spain. We are still thinking about it though, haven't yet decided.


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