# Q: Is there such a thing as "amendment" to a first time tax return (specific: missed IRA and HSA accounts inclusion)?



## calin-m

First time French tax filed with the assistance of a professional service (thus done "manually" - no online option available for first timers), for the last few months of 2021, with no income during that time (thus assumed no tax to be paid - just wanting to "get in the system"). I was expecting some info back from the French tax service by now. Attempting to understand why nothing has been received, the service originally engaged to file (which was done in April, thus by the official deadline) and I discovered some issues in the info provided in the original filing. My question is if there is such a thing as "amendment" to a filed return, at this time. The pro service talks about a re-submission of the entire filing, but I am not sure if that would get penalized as "net new" (not within the original deadline), or if that is considered some sort of amendment, thus acceptable.

The info related to this topic, which I found here, seems to make no provision for a correction to a manual return, to be made between the time limit and the actual "return" (avis d'impots) received from the state, whereas the pro service seems to think that a correction c/should be submitted at any time. My main concern in regards to the return is not one associated to tax owed (which should be none), but rather to having missed (been told only bank checking and savings need to be included) to record the US IRA and HSA accounts in the list provided with the original filing.

Does anyone have any prior experience with such and/or an idea of what the proper way to correct is (i.e. resubmit ASAP, or wait for the avis and then submit the missing accounts, knowing that none have been used, anyway, thus with no relevance - yet - on tax)?

EDIT: I called the main number (0 809 401 401), and they can't find us in the system yet (Oct 4th). According to the person I spoke with, I should have received something by now, even if this was filed manually. On the other hand the pro svc I used said that first time filers may not get it before year's end, in worst case scenario.


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## jweihl

We are also first time filers. We have not heard anything back from the fisc yet. Our French tax preparer says this isn't unusual and that it seems that many people are experiencing delays in processing. She advised us to wait another month before we try and chase it down.


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## JayBee1

We called them (last month) as we were newbies as well and were advised from this forum that August-September is a good time to "enquire". They looked us up, gave us our tax numbers and because we had moved to another address in the same city, I wrote an email to our local fisc and asked them how they would like to be advised of our address change. They replied in a week. We gave them what they asked for and they returned the next day telling us to set up our account online. That's done but I noticed an error in the spelling of my husband's name. I'm sure they will get back to me. So, I would just call them explain it's your first filing and go from there. Hope this helps.


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## calin-m

JayBee1 said:


> We called them (last month)


Is 0 809 401 401 the number you called?


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## JayBee1

calin-m said:


> Is 0 809 401 401 the number you called?


Yes


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## JayBee1

calin-m said:


> Is 0 809 401 401 the number you called?


You can also contact the fisc in your area (where you submitted the tax forms.)


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## EuroTrash

jweihl said:


> We are also first time filers. We have not heard anything back from the fisc yet. Our French tax preparer says this isn't unusual and that it seems that many people are experiencing delays in processing. She advised us to wait another month before we try and chase it down.


Mine popped up online today. Looked this morning and it wasn't there, looked this evening and now it is.


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## BackinFrance

Next time don't use a service, instead make an appointment once the forms have been issued with someone at your local fisc who is familiar with the tax treaty with the US and take all of your financial information with you. There is no charge.


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## BackinFrance

And yes, you can change your declaration but you will need to go into your local fisc (you should make an appointment to do that, either at the office or by phone. Your declaration will have been sent to them, even if your service sent it to another office. 

BTW, even if your declaration is submitted after the deadline, if you owe no tax, which should be the case for you for last year, as the penalty is a percentage of the tax owed, 0% of 0 is 0.


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## calin-m

BackinFrance said:


> And yes, you can change your declaration but you will need to go into your local fisc (you should make an appointment to do that, either at the office or by phone. Your declaration will have been sent to them, even if your service sent it to another office.


This is where my confusion lies: should I wait for the actual authorities reply (avis d'impôt), based on the original filing (and this is where I'm a little concerned, as the main office couldn't find us in the system, even after five months post filing), or should I just go to the local fisc office (which - according to their main office I called is still under no appointment due to COVID rules, which implies my just walking there and hoping for the best)? The pro service I used tells me I shouldn't go to the local fisc (I see no interest in being misled, as I already paid for their services), as they may not have expertise in expats filing, and I could only complicate things (?!?), stating, instead, that I should just send new, corrected forms, apparently any time.


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## jweihl

BackinFrance said:


> Next time don't use a service, instead make an appointment once the forms have been issued with someone at your local fisc who is familiar with the tax treaty with the US and take all of your financial information with you. There is no charge.


The concept of trusting a government agency to tell me what to declare, and how to interpret a tax filing from a different country is alien to me. In the US, I would never trust the IRS for tax advice. Our neighbors, who had only retirement income received a tax bill from the fisc saying they owed several thousand euros. They promptly contacted our tax advisor and quickly got it sorted and now owe nothing. Until I, myself, understand the system much better, I'm getting advice from someone I know has references dealing with US tax filings and that I pay to look out for me.


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## EuroTrash

calin-m said:


> The pro service I used tells me I shouldn't go to the local fisc (I see no interest in being misled, as I already paid for their services), as they may not have expertise in expats filing, and I could only complicate things (?!?)


The devil in me is whispering, Maybe they don't want people discovering how approachable and helpful the staff in French tax offices generally are, otherwise who would ever pay to use a third party. 
I also wonder how the paid-for service allowed you to make this omission, or maybe checking that your return is correct isn't not part of the services they offer (in which case what services do they offer??). But I can't help feeling that if you had taken advice direct from the tax office, this wouldn't have happened.


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## Bevdeforges

jweihl, you and nearly every other American who has ever moved to France. Seriously, get over it. (You will eventually.) <ggg> The IRS is mean, nasty, tricky and evil. (Not actually, but they are understaffed, underfunded and have no time or interest in dealing with individual taxpayers - and are officially protected from responsibility by a rule that nothing they tell you is "binding" other than a paid-for tax ruling.) The local tax offices are (generally speaking, and approached in a cooperative way) only too happy to work with you. (And yeah, ET, Great Minds Think Alike - if the tax service is so familiar with US taxes and expat customers, why wouldn't they have asked about such things when doing the initial forms for you?) 

Given that you are only filing for a partial year anyhow, won't owe anything and were filing on paper (mainly to get registered into the system), you really can afford to just wait to receive whatever avis d'imposition (or just an acknowledgment of your declaration, complete with the numbers you'll need to set up your online account). I wouldn't bother trying to "amend" the return for 2021 (as long as you don't owe anything). The reporting of foreign accounts can be "fixed" on next year's return. The French Fisc isn't too worried about that sort of thing, given that in the tax treaty, IRA's are considered to be "government pensions" - and I seriously doubt they are concerned about HSAs either. But if it makes you feel better, you can report them both next year. They will not "notice" the omission last year - just as they won't "notice" if you decide not to report them the following years. I reported my IRA and 401K for years as "assurance vie" and then actually read Article 18 of the tax treaty to find the thing about them being government pensions - which are not reportable as assurance vie. (Then when the tax office called to ask about the IRA pension I reported as foreign income, I had to mention Article 18 to them - for which they seemed honestly grateful. So now I simply include "Article 18" as part of the explanation of the income.)


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## BackinFrance

calin-m said:


> This is where my confusion lies: should I wait for the actual authorities reply (avis d'impôt), based on the original filing (and this is where I'm a little concerned, as the main office couldn't find us in the system, even after five months post filing), or should I just go to the local fisc office (which - according to their main office I called is still under no appointment due to COVID rules, which implies my just walking there and hoping for the best)? The pro service I used tells me I shouldn't go to the local fisc (I see no interest in being misled, as I already paid for their services), as they may not have expertise in expats filing, and I could only complicate things (?!?), stating, instead, that I should just send new, corrected forms, apparently any time.


This has in essence been answered by Bev and ET. And your service provider is talking rubbish. As I said, if you (were able to) make an appointment with your local tax office, you should ask to see someone with knowledge of the double tax agreement between France and the US. That way they will ensure the officer you see is fully up to date with the agreement.

As I also said, 0% of 0 is 0.

Because of the workload, the fisc usually leaves first time déclarations with no tax file number until last, so you may very well not hear anything until the first quarter of 2023, so you could easily wait until then to follow u, and to request any changes you may wish to make.


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## JayBee1

calin-m said:


> First time French tax filed with the assistance of a professional service (thus done "manually" - no online option available for first timers), for the last few months of 2021, with no income during that time (thus assumed no tax to be paid - just wanting to "get in the system"). I was expecting some info back from the French tax service by now. Attempting to understand why nothing has been received, the service originally engaged to file (which was done in April, thus by the official deadline) and I discovered some issues in the info provided in the original filing. My question is if there is such a thing as "amendment" to a filed return, at this time. The pro service talks about a re-submission of the entire filing, but I am not sure if that would get penalized as "net new" (not within the original deadline), or if that is considered some sort of amendment, thus acceptable.
> 
> The info related to this topic, which I found here, seems to make no provision for a correction to a manual return, to be made between the time limit and the actual "return" (avis d'impots) received from the state, whereas the pro service seems to think that a correction c/should be submitted at any time. My main concern in regards to the return is not one associated to tax owed (which should be none), but rather to having missed (been told only bank checking and savings need to be included) to record the US IRA and HSA accounts in the list provided with the original filing.
> 
> Does anyone have any prior experience with such and/or an idea of what the proper way to correct is (i.e. resubmit ASAP, or wait for the avis and then submit the missing accounts, knowing that none have been used, anyway, thus with no relevance - yet - on tax)?
> 
> EDIT: I called the main number (0 809 401 401), and they can't find us in the system yet (Oct 4th). According to the person I spoke with, I should have received something by now, even if this was filed manually. On the other hand the pro svc I used said that first time filers may not get it before year's end, in worst case scenario.


As I mentioned earlier regarding my husbands name error. They said: 
avis d imposition ne peut être rectifié
la rectification sera prise en compte pour votre prochaine déclaration de revenus. 

Perhaps this will help you relax and enjoy your time in France. As for the comments about a tax service or not using a tax service. As a Canadian, I was hesitant because our CRA is not as helpful as France Fisc. But I took the advice of the wise expats that have been here awhile and they were right. They have been very helpful. Good luck.


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## EuroTrash

BackinFrance said:


> you may very well not hear anything until the first quarter of 2023, so you could easily wait until then to follow u, and to request any changes you may wish to make.


Or you could even introduce yourself to your tax people when the next return is due, let them take you through your 2023 submission, and then when you get to the part you didn't complete this year, say innocently "Oh I don't think I did that last year, does it matter?" Then the ball is in their court, they may look back and amend it or they may draw a line. I think that is what I would do.


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