# US Expats in UK-are you going for dual citizenship?



## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

I am following a thread in the General sub-forum about a gentleman living in Canada who thought he was no longer a USC because he had taken Canadian citizenship-he recounts receiving a letter from the US State Department (US SD) revoking his US citizenship after taking the Canadian one in 1977. (Canadian citizenship and letter from US SD)

To make things more interesting, he relates that he has recently received a letter from the US SD that amounts to-"Hey that letter we sent you in '77? Just kidding!" 

:jaw:

I checked the State Department web site for more info, and thought the answer was simple-the US does permit dual citizenships when certain conditions are met, and it's not a big deal to be a dualie. 

Apparently it is, though, as the discussion developed. 

I am a USC married to a UKC and living with my UKC husband in the UK; I plan to apply for UK citizenship when the time comes, and had thought I would be able to retain my US citizenship without any problems-and now I am not too sure of that!

How many of us are thinking it's no biggie to be dual US-UK citizens? How many of us have looked into it deeply enough to fully understand the complications?

I really hope we can get a discussion going on this. I know most of the threads here are visa application oriented-and that's a VERY important feature of this forum! However, when I joined, I also thought this was a place to discuss all socially acceptable aspects of expat life. I hope enough of you agree, and we can get some discussion going on this-I should think this is a rather important aspect of expat life!

(Erm, is this the right place to ask how come the French have a cafe and we don't have a pub )


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## MRSREILLY (Mar 14, 2012)

I alwsys thought you were a dual citizen just if you move to the states from another country its seen as you are only a citizen of,the united states but in the eyes of the other country your a dual citizen. Otherwise why would you have to continue to pay taxes in the US (in case you filr to get your social security) I think it was different back in the '70's. With every thing that was going on. And Americans moving countries was well fairly new. It was probably like a slap in the face back then. 

Cause I thought now you had to formally renounce your American citizenship. which I know I never will. even if it means I cant become a dual citizen. 

Now I cant get the pledge of allegiance out of my head lol and I have said it in at least 17 years lol


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

I can't get the oath I took when I joined the USCG out of my head just now, so I can well relate to not being able to get the Pledge out

There are so many things to consider and one of those things is military service. I am now officially past the age of being recalled, but people under 55 would have to think about that-which country has the claim if there is a call-up?

Taxes are also a consideration, as is receiving Social Security (if it's even still there when someone is ready to apply for benefits); there are so many more things to consider!

I really thought it was simple but I am seeing that it is not. This information from the US SD on the travel.gov pages seems to cover it, and answer the question, but...

Advice about Possible Loss of U.S. Citizenship and Dual Nationality


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

From the State Department website re the taking up of dual nationality:


"if they perform certain specified acts voluntarily *and* with the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship."

Emphasis mine.

One little word can put everything into perspective.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

From legal point of view, there are no problem becoming a dual US-British citizen after naturalisation in UK. You retain your US citizenship. You just have to use your US passport to enter and leave US, and by international agreement, you cannot be protected by British government while you are visiting or living in US.

There are certain actions which are incompatible with your retained US citizenship, such as joining foreign armed forces, and in some cases, working for a foreign government, but these are exceptional. I suppose it will only create problems if you are to join the Iranian or North Korean army or government service! I can't imagine joining the British civil service will become an issue, though there is often a residential qualification for government jobs, like living in UK for 3-5 years prior to applying and passing security clearance for certain posts.

There are many advantages of gaining British - and therefore EU - citizenship. You will be free to live, work, visit or retire just about anywhere in Europe with your British passport. This opens up a whole new area of possibilities for you and your family. One major bugbear is having to file your US taxes each year, but if all your incomes are covered by foreign earnings exemption, it's a fairly simple paper exercise, and there is plenty of help available online, here on Expatforum and from IRS unit attached to US embassy in London.


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## gairloch (Jun 24, 2011)

From my research:ranger:, I've determined in my opinion (make that IMHO), the The State Dept will not consider the act of acquiring foreign citizenship an EXPATRIATING act unless you do so with the specific intention of relishing your US citizenship. The mere act of acquiring foreign citizenship in itself is insufficient.

DOS excerpt...
“ADMINISTRATIVE STANDARD OF EVIDENCE As already noted, the actions listed above can cause loss of U.S. citizenship only if performed voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship. The Department has a uniform administrative standard of evidence based on the premise that U.S. citizens intend to retain United States citizenship when they obtain naturalization in a foreign state, subscribe to a declaration of allegiance to a foreign state, serve in the armed forces of a foreign state not engaged in hostilities with the United States, or accept non-policy level employment with a foreign government.
DISPOSITION OF CASES WHEN ADMINISTRATIVE PREMISE IS APPLICABLE
In light of the administrative premise discussed above, a person who:
1.	is naturalized in a foreign country;
2.	takes a routine oath of allegiance to a foreign state;
3.	serves in the armed forces of a foreign state not engaged in hostilities with the United States, or
4.	accepts non-policy level employment with a foreign government,
and in so doing wishes to retain U.S. citizenship need not submit prior to the commission of a potentially expatriating act a statement or evidence of his or her intent to retain U.S. citizenship since such an intent will be presumed. 
When, as the result of an individual's inquiry or an individual's application for registration or a passport it comes to the attention of a U.S. consular officer that a U.S. citizen has performed an act made potentially expatriating by Sections 349(a)(1), 349(a)(2), 349(a)(3) or 349(a)(4) as described above, the consular officer will simply ask the applicant if there was intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship when performing the act. If the answer is no, the consular officer will certify that it was not the person's intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship and, consequently, find that the person has retained U.S. citizenship.”


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

@Nyclon, yes, I saw that last night whilst reading the thread in the General area. And then, lol, one of the mods related a rather horrifying history of USCs in France as wives (in the 1950s, I do understand things may have changed)-when the brides went to renew their US passports, the SD rep at the US embassy retained the passports and informed the ladies they'd lost their citizenship.

Again, I do understand that happened in the 50s. But I lived in Central America as an expat in the 90s, and heard stories that were very similar-from people who had NO intention of giving up their US citizenship. 

I think there is a lot more to this dual citizenship thing. The State Department has several info fliers on having dual citizenship, and everything does look straight forward-one must consciously decide to renounce the US citizenship, or partake in an activity listed as an expatriating act. The info fliers note actions to take to appeal, and to remedy if accidental revocation has occurred.

Obviously, the US and the UK aren't going to blows against each other any time soon And personally with the US, I really do think it is primarily $$$$$ driven-Uncle Sam needs those tax dollars, lol (although it's more like ouch for some). And of course, I think the advantages Joppa points out far outweigh the disadvantages.

I'm not in a tizzy or panic, lol, but I do think there is more to dual nationality than I did a few days ago


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## gairloch (Jun 24, 2011)

There may be some tax disadvantages for those with a US Federal pension to becoming a UK Citizen.


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

gairloch said:


> There may be some tax disadvantages for those with a US Federal pension to becoming a UK Citizen.


Oh yes, as a retired bureaucrat, trust me, I am sooooooo on that issue!


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

Here's the thing that keeps me thinking about this whole thing. 

The man in Canada had his US citizenship revoked by the US SD over 30 years ago. SO why is the US SD contacting him now?

The surface implication is that the State Department is desperate if they are digging up something from the late seventies! So does that mean they will change the rules on other aspects of dual citizenship-so at best we will always have to keep an eye on them?

Will I, as an expat and dual citizen, need to always keep track of the US SD rule changes? Well, it does look as though the answer is yes. 

I'm going to need to make notes on the diary to make sure I routinely check all the sites I need to check to make sure I am in compliances with immigration and citizenship law.


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## gairloch (Jun 24, 2011)

AnAmericanInScotland said:


> Oh yes, as a retired bureaucrat, trust me, I am sooooooo on that issue!


I'm all ears (so to speak); as a soon to be retired bureaucrat. Should it be a thread on it over in the tax section?


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

gairloch said:


> I'm all ears (so to speak); as a soon to be retired bureaucrat. Should it be a thread on it over in the tax section?


Probably no need, it's very straight forward depending on your agency. I was with Commerce, and haven't had any hassles. The tax info links on the tax section threads lead to the appropriate .gov sites, you should find it easily. 

I came over in late 2010, so that one was very simple, 2011 apparently has gone without a hitch as well, so I don't see any problems for future tax years. I will however be looking into any complications being a dual citizen might create-don't see how it would, just want all my bases covered.


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## gairloch (Jun 24, 2011)

Yes, from what I understand US Fed pensions (FERS, CSRS, Mil ret. & TSP) are only taxable by the US (assuming USC in the UK). By becoming both a citizen and resident of the other state I think the tax shifts to the UK.


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

gairloch said:


> Yes, from what I understand US Fed pensions (FERS, CSRS, Mil ret. & TSP) are only taxable by the US (assuming USC in the UK). By becoming both a citizen and resident of the other state I think the tax shifts to the UK.


I'm FERS, oh heck, are you saying I'll be paying UK taxes on that once I become a citizen? 

Oh my head, so many things to study!


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## gairloch (Jun 24, 2011)

The HRMC Double Taxation Relief Manual (DTM) is my guide, so I only know what I've been reading up on. Please read DT19929I -included below. 

It seems to say that (not withstanding ART 17 para 1 & 2) [a] pensions paid out by a contracting state (US in this case) for services rendered to that state are only taxable in that state. * is taxable by the other state if a resident and a national of that state.

So it seems to say [for a USC in the UK w/no UK cit.], that Gov pensions are only taxable in the US, BUT if you become a UK cit and are resident in the UK then the UK taxes it.

I am not a tax professional-take no action without consulting a tax professional.*


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

The tax issue is probably the main annoyance of having dual nationality - if one of those nationalities is US. The US is about the only country that insists on taxing its citizens even when they are living outside the US.

However, the US has tax treaties with most countries where dual citizens are likely to live (yes, with the UK) that eliminate dual taxation of the same income. It takes a bit of research to figure out sometimes who taxes which sort of income, but usually the country you are living in (whether or not you are a citizen there) wants you to report your worldwide income, and for anything the US gets to tax, there is some way to indicate this or to take some form of tax credit for taxes paid to the US.

Generally, when it comes to pensions, the country the pension is coming from is the one that gets "first dibs" on taxing it. (This includes US Social Security, too.) But there are exceptions - the IRS has publications dealing with "retirement pensions" and similar topics that can be downloaded from their website.)

The Expat Tax section includes a number of threads on various aspects of US taxation that frequently come up with regard to US taxpayers living overseas. To be honest about it, though, the taxation side of things is the same whether you have the nationality of the country you're living in or not.
Cheers,
Bev


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## MRSREILLY (Mar 14, 2012)

check out this link i found about dual citizenship for americans. pretty enlightening. lol

Can I have dual nationality? | American Citizen Services


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

MRSREILLY said:


> check out this link i found about dual citizenship for americans. pretty enlightening. lol
> 
> Can I have dual nationality? | American Citizen Services


Nice find! Lots of good links there, too, thank-you!


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## MRSREILLY (Mar 14, 2012)

and it does state there how at one point they did take it away. so i can understand why they sent that one guy a letter saying "hey heres it back" lol


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## MRSREILLY (Mar 14, 2012)

i find i interesting about how no matter what you could lose your US citizenship so i think once it comes to that point for me im still going to make sure that they dont take it away. especially because i have no intention to relinquish my citizenship. because i do know when you come to the states in order to become a citizen you have to pledge you allegiance to the united states, so maybe i wont become a citizen and just choose to live in the UK. and i guess if i still have to pay US Taxes you can be sure that im gonna get my social security lol. of course if its still around by then lol i still got almost 40 years to get to that point lol. and i think on the safe side im gonna get a job with the us government just to make sure they know im not trying to break any ties lol.


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## MRSREILLY (Mar 14, 2012)

and with the tax thing. im still trying to figure out how i will have to file my taxes next year as i will be using my post 9/11 GI bill which gives me grants for books and pays for my school(directly to the school) and also gives me a housing allowance each month. i will be doing online schooling the main school is located here in the states but i will be over in england. lol i really hope when it comes to that point i will be able to find a very good tax specialist in my area i do not want to get an audit lol they are no fun lol. buti do know like my housing allowance is and allowance not an income. so i know that doesnt get taxed (got it while i was in the navy) so i am oh so looking forward to that one lol. but hey if anyone out there does know feel free to message me lol.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

MRSREILLY said:


> and with the tax thing. im still trying to figure out how i will have to file my taxes next year as i will be using my post 9/11 GI bill which gives me grants for books and pays for my school(directly to the school) and also gives me a housing allowance each month. i will be doing online schooling the main school is located here in the states but i will be over in england. lol i really hope when it comes to that point i will be able to find a very good tax specialist in my area i do not want to get an audit lol they are no fun lol. buti do know like my housing allowance is and allowance not an income. so i know that doesnt get taxed (got it while i was in the navy) so i am oh so looking forward to that one lol. but hey if anyone out there does know feel free to message me lol.


You might want to post your tax issue on the Expat Tax section here when the time comes. 

Basically, the tax issues have nothing to do with whether or not you're a dual national. Just being a US citizen living abroad means you have to file. 

The main difference with taking on a second nationality is that you get the right to vote where you're living. Until you're really settled in, it doesn't really seem all that important. But once you've been overseas for 20 years (like I have), it can make more sense to vote where you live rather than trying to stay involved in the insanity back in "The Old Country."

By the by - your chances of an audit are probably way less when you're living overseas than when you're resident back in the good ol' US of A. Just don't draw attention to your return.
Cheers,
Bev


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

That's one of the reasons I am planning of applying for UK citizenship, Bevdeforges-so that I can vote. My husband and I plan to live the rest of our lives here, and voting is important to us both.

I'm wondering, how do I vote in US elections if I become a dual citizen-has anyone had any problems with that?


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## LondonSquirrel (May 19, 2011)

*Age 55*



AnAmericanInScotland said:


> I can't get the oath I took when I joined the USCG out of my head just now, so I can well relate to not being able to get the Pledge out
> 
> There are so many things to consider and one of those things is military service. I am now officially past the age of being recalled, but people under 55 would have to think about that-which country has the claim if there is a call-up?
> 
> ...


Just wondered where you got the age cut off of 55 from for conscription? As far as I know, the Selective Service age is 18-25 in the US and the UK has no equivilent, but even in the two major world wars when they had a draft, I think the cut off was about 42. I doubt most 55 year olds would be fit enough to fight on the front line! Lol.


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

AnAmericanInScotland said:


> That's one of the reasons I am planning of applying for UK citizenship, Bevdeforges-so that I can vote. My husband and I plan to live the rest of our lives here, and voting is important to us both.
> 
> I'm wondering, how do I vote in US elections if I become a dual citizen-has anyone had any problems with that?


Being a dual citizen has no impact on your ability to vote in US elections. You vote the same way that you vote now. Check the State Depatment website for overseas voting instructions.


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## izzysmum04 (Nov 26, 2007)

*I got my Brit citizenship 4 years ago, and vote in both US and UK elections. Nyclon is right, no problems here.*


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## MRSREILLY (Mar 14, 2012)

Its understood that the reason they wanted to get UK citizenship is so they could vote in the uk.


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## manny.j (Dec 4, 2011)

AnAmericanInScotland said:


> That's one of the reasons I am planning of applying for UK citizenship, Bevdeforges-so that I can vote. My husband and I plan to live the rest of our lives here, and voting is important to us both.
> 
> I'm wondering, how do I vote in US elections if I become a dual citizen-has anyone had any problems with that?


It is not a problem as US, on paper, does *not *recognize one as a citizen of any other country but American (if they are a US citizen and citizen of another country). Similarly, UK recognizes only British citizenship. This is evident from the oath taken when one becomes a citizen of a particular country during the naturalization ceremony. So a dual-national will be considered a UK citizen by UK Govt and US citizen by US Govt.


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

Thank-you to the dual citizens who've posted they've had no problems voting in the UK and the US-it is always very reassuring to hear of personal experiences, especially the positive ones.

@LondonSquirrel-I am a former USCG member who upon demob in 1986 agreed to be 'Ready Reserve'. Ordinarily that means those of us in that category can be called up anytime our services are deemed required. The age cut-off for recall depends on the individual member's service jacket, mine was set at 55. I know of some (chaplains and medical personnel) who theoretically can be called up into their 80s. "Needs and best interests of the Service and the Nation" is how mine read.

Sorry for the confusion.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

AnAmericanInScotland said:


> That's one of the reasons I am planning of applying for UK citizenship, Bevdeforges-so that I can vote. My husband and I plan to live the rest of our lives here, and voting is important to us both.
> 
> I'm wondering, how do I vote in US elections if I become a dual citizen-has anyone had any problems with that?


Officially, you are supposed to vote from the last address you resided at before leaving the US. Practically speaking, lots of expats use the address of a family member. (It's really uncertain whether most voting districts even check to see that someone of your name ever lived at the address you give them - but some may.)

What they recommend you do is to register to vote in January of the year. (You generally have to re-register before each major election. A few districts seem to carry over your registration from year to year, but most don't.) Local US expat groups often hold voter registration drives in the year or so before the big presidential elections.

You then have to request an absentee ballot (again, some districts will send it out automatically, most won't) a couple of months before election day. It varies by state whether your absentee ballot has to get there before election day or by election day (and postmarks don't necessarily count - it has to physically arrive by the correct date).

You can vote from overseas in Federal elections only - meaning President, US Senate and US House. There is a standardized federal voter registration form available from the US Consulate or through most US expat associations overseas. Or check the FVAP website: Federal Voting Assistance Program - Home - To Vote Absentee, Start By Telling Us Who You Are though this group has a tendency to be oriented mostly toward US military and diplomatic personnel stationed overseas.
Cheers,
Bev


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## vivkiik (Oct 6, 2010)

This is a very interesting thread and has brought up an interesting dilemma for me. I am a US-born dual citizen (US and Nigeria) living in the US currently but planning to move to the UK with my UK-born hubby with intentions of become a UK citizen. I know that I am not first person to be in this situation but I wonder now whether others with multiple citizenship have had problems becoming a UK citzen or retaining US citizenship after emigrating. Thoughts??

Sent from my iPhone using ExpatForum


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

vivkiik said:


> This is a very interesting thread and has brought up an interesting dilemma for me. I am a US-born dual citizen (US and Nigeria) living in the US currently but planning to move to the UK with my UK-born hubby with intentions of become a UK citizen. I know that I am not first person to be in this situation but I wonder now whether others with multiple citizenship have had problems becoming a UK citzen or retaining US citizenship after emigrating. Thoughts??


Nowadays, nothing at all. You can retain your US citizenship on becoming a naturalised Briton (don't know about Nigerian citizenship). You can hold both passports, just remember to use US passport for leaving and entering US. You still have to make yearly tax return to IRS wherever in the world you live in.


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

Joppa, re the passport usage-when leaving the UK we use the UK or the US passport? I ask because I'm wondering if the US Border agent will ask why we don't have an exit stamp from the UK in the US passport. 

I'm assuming I would be ready to show the UK one to the US agent, but I'm wondering if this has been a problem for other dual citizens when arriving to the US.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

AnAmericanInScotland said:


> Joppa, re the passport usage-when leaving the UK we use the UK or the US passport? I ask because I'm wondering if the US Border agent will ask why we don't have an exit stamp from the UK in the US passport.
> 
> I'm assuming I would be ready to show the UK one to the US agent, but I'm wondering if this has been a problem for other dual citizens when arriving to the US.


There is no exit control from UK and no passports are stamped. When booking your flights out of UK to US, you should give your US passport details in advance passenger information.
Show your US passport to airline/airport staff at the gate before boarding your US-bound flight when they check ID.
For any other trips not involving US, just show your British passport.


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

Joppa said:


> There is no exit control from UK and no passports are stamped. When booking your flights out of UK to US, you should give your US passport details in advance passenger information.
> Show your US passport to airline/airport staff at the gate before boarding your US-bound flight when they check ID.
> For any other trips not involving US, just show your British passport.


Thank-you!


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

vivkiik said:


> This is a very interesting thread and has brought up an interesting dilemma for me. I am a US-born dual citizen (US and Nigeria) living in the US currently but planning to move to the UK with my UK-born hubby with intentions of become a UK citizen. I know that I am not first person to be in this situation but I wonder now whether others with multiple citizenship have had problems becoming a UK citzen or retaining US citizenship after emigrating. Thoughts??
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ExpatForum


It's getting to the point where it's difficult to get rid of your US citizenship, even if you want to!  "Once a US citizen, always a US citizen" seems to be the new motto.

As Joppa has indicated, you want to use your US passport to enter and leave the US. And as a US citizen, your obligation to file tax returns never goes away (unless your income falls below the filing threshold for your filing status).

But you shouldn't have any problems with multiple nationalities.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

AnAmericanInScotland said:


> Joppa, re the passport usage-when leaving the UK we use the UK or the US passport? I ask because I'm wondering if the US Border agent will ask why we don't have an exit stamp from the UK in the US passport.
> 
> I'm assuming I would be ready to show the UK one to the US agent, but I'm wondering if this has been a problem for other dual citizens when arriving to the US.


On entry to the US, the CIS doesn't look for exit stamps, especially not for US citizens. You want to use your US passport when checking in for a flight to the US. If you use your British passport, they may have problems if they check for your ESTA registration (required of foreigners traveling to the US).

Coming back from the US, you want to use your US passport again for checking in for the flight. The airlines are charged with notifying the CIS people that foreigners on VWP have left the US and if you use your UK passport it will just confuse things.
Cheers,
Bev


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

Bevdeforges said:


> On entry to the US, the CIS doesn't look for exit stamps, especially not for US citizens...
> Cheers,
> Bev


When I went back to the States last year the questioning went on for about twenty minutes, I felt as though I was being grilled! The agent kept asking why I'd been out of the US for so long, what was I doing over there, where did I stay, was I planning to leave the US again anytime soon...I was really starting to worry, had I done something wrong?! Finally he stamped my passport and said 'welcome back', but it really was grueling there for a space. 

FWIW, I'm not on any lists that I know of, and am just your average retired boring person, so I have not got a clue what generated that border grilling. I just know it was unpleasant.

I don't like travel much any more and have already arranged for my son and grandson to visit me here in the UK, but if I have to travel to the US, I don't want to have to spend a moment longer at Immigration than is absolutely necessary-knowing ahead of time any information aimed towards a smooth visit to that kiosk works for me.


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