# Where do I start?



## AliciaLyons (Aug 14, 2015)

I am currently entertaining the idea of moving to Mexico with my 2 children. My fiancé is currently in the process of being deported and will have a bar of at the least 10 years before being able to apply for a waiver. We have 2 daughters ages 12 and 6. We have visited Mexico before in my fiancé's home town of Hidalgo de Parral in Chihuahua. So I do know a little bit of what it is like there. But have no idea what it is like to live there. Me nor my daughters speak Spanish. I have a very well-paying job here where we live and all of my family pretty much in the same town. So I would be giving up a lot. But I do not want to split up our family. Is there places to live that you could get by speaking English? Where is a safe place to live with good schools. I don’t know how my kids would adjust to school not knowing any Spanish. Any advice is appreciated. Thank you!


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

AliciaLyons said:


> I am currently entertaining the idea of moving to Mexico with my 2 children. My fiancé is currently in the process of being deported and will have a bar of at the least 10 years before being able to apply for a waiver. We have 2 daughters ages 12 and 6. We have visited Mexico before in my fiancé's home town of Hidalgo de Parral in Chihuahua. So I do know a little bit of what it is like there. But have no idea what it is like to live there. Me nor my daughters speak Spanish. I have a very well-paying job here where we live and all of my family pretty much in the same town. So I would be giving up a lot. But I do not want to split up our family. Is there places to live that you could get by speaking English? Where is a safe place to live with good schools. I don’t know how my kids would adjust to school not knowing any Spanish. Any advice is appreciated. Thank you!


I'd start to learn Spanish ASAP. "Duolingo" is free, online.
The Lake Chapala Area has many expats, is more or less "safe", but I don't have youngsters, so don't know about schools. San Miguel de Allende has good schools and many foreign residents. Also "safe". Both of them are places you can get by with minimal Spanish fluency while you learn.

I'd suggest you contact your nearest Mexican consulate to inquire about financial requirements to get a visa as well as other matters that may be of concern to you.
Wishing you the best of luck.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

AliciaLyons said:


> I am currently entertaining the idea of moving to Mexico with my 2 children. My fiancé is currently in the process of being deported and will have a bar of at the least 10 years before being able to apply for a waiver. We have 2 daughters ages 12 and 6. We have visited Mexico before in my fiancé's home town of Hidalgo de Parral in Chihuahua. So I do know a little bit of what it is like there. But have no idea what it is like to live there. Me nor my daughters speak Spanish. I have a very well-paying job here where we live and all of my family pretty much in the same town. So I would be giving up a lot. But I do not want to split up our family. Is there places to live that you could get by speaking English? Where is a safe place to live with good schools. I don’t know how my kids would adjust to school not knowing any Spanish. Any advice is appreciated. Thank you!


You have my sympathy. You are facing some difficult choices.

Your kids will find it difficult at first, but will pick up Spanish very quickly especially the 6 year-old. There are some places where a lot of the locals speak English. For example many of the tourist beach areas or in the two places with a large concentration of US and Canadians (Lake Chapala and San Miguel de Allende). In the rest of the country, it will be more challenging until you learn some Spanish. There are lots of safe places to live. Many foreigners pay for private schools for their kids. Are you only considering living in your fiancé's home town, or are other places an option? That will affect the choices for schools for the kids.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I would firs worry about the type of job and pay you will get in Mexico...because all the talks of good school may vanish if you cannot afford a private school. I would think the 6 year old will adapt quickly maybe more difficult for the 12 year old who is about to become a teenager....an age that can be challenging in any country and can be made worst by the moving to a differnt culture. Think twice before moving if you have a good job and your fiancé cannot provide for the family in Mexico.


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## AliciaLyons (Aug 14, 2015)

lagoloo said:


> I'd start to learn Spanish ASAP. "Duolingo" is free, online.
> The Lake Chapala Area has many expats, is more or less "safe", but I don't have youngsters, so don't know about schools. San Miguel de Allende has good schools and many foreign residents. Also "safe". Both of them are places you can get by with minimal Spanish fluency while you learn.
> 
> I'd suggest you contact your nearest Mexican consulate to inquire about financial requirements to get a visa as well as other matters that may be of concern to you.
> Wishing you the best of luck.


Thank you for the Duolingo information. I just downloaded the app on my phone. I will start to ask about what visa I would need to move there. I have heard that because my daughters dad is a Mexican citizen then they will have dual citizenship but he will have to apply or fill some type of papers out for them.


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## AliciaLyons (Aug 14, 2015)

citlali said:


> I would firs worry about the type of job and pay you will get in Mexico...because all the talks of good school may vanish if you cannot afford a private school. I would think the 6 year old will adapt quickly maybe more difficult for the 12 year old who is about to become a teenager....an age that can be challenging in any country and can be made worst by the moving to a differnt culture. Think twice before moving if you have a good job and your fiancé cannot provide for the family in Mexico.


Yes I very much worry about my 12 year old. I think my youngest will adapt much quicker. Thank you for the advice.


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## AliciaLyons (Aug 14, 2015)

TundraGreen said:


> You have my sympathy. You are facing some difficult choices.
> 
> Your kids will find it difficult at first, but will pick up Spanish very quickly especially the 6 year-old. There are some places where a lot of the locals speak English. For example many of the tourist beach areas or in the two places with a large concentration of US and Canadians (Lake Chapala and San Miguel de Allende). In the rest of the country, it will be more challenging until you learn some Spanish. There are lots of safe places to live. Many foreigners pay for private schools for their kids. Are you only considering living in your fiancé's home town, or are other places an option? That will affect the choices for schools for the kids.


We are willing to move wherever we would have stable employment and somewhere that would be best for our children to adjust. Thank you for the advice on San Miguel De Allende. I will look into it


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## mes1952 (Dec 11, 2012)

Most of the areas where there are many English-speaking expats also are the more expensive places to live. And in addition you won't be able to find a decent (not even good) paying job without being fluent in Spanish and even then it will be much less than in the U.S.
Most of the families I've met here in Baja (close to the border) who have a deported family member simply move just across the border into Mexico where the family can live but go to school (and be employed) in the U.S. OR the family remains in the U.S. and visits the deported member. Otherwise it will be very difficult for everyone and might cause even more family problems. And it is somewhat expensive for you to obtain Mexican citizenship; it is not free and you have to provide documentation along with costs; you are not automatically a Mexican citizen (nor are your children) just because you are married to a Mexican national. You need to seek the advice of an attorney very knowledgeable about Mexican laws and decide is it really worth it to leave the U.S.


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## WintheWin (Jul 15, 2015)

I think your 12 year old will struggle considerably.
More-so considering… 6 more years, and she can be off to college.
Depending on where you currently work…
You're likely facing a VERY radical change of lifestyle, not only culturally, but financially.
Mexico is a wonderful country, but I thank my stars I was US-educated, simply for the earning potential. 
While there are some very profitable jobs in Mexco, you'll find they are highly competitive,
and your average working professional earns peanuts compared to what a minimum wage American job is.
(Note… I said average.)

While much more difficult, any consideration into maintaining a long-term relationship? With FREQUENT visits to Mexico? That way, your children could retain UIS education, and make their choices themselves when their older, but still have the cultural opportunity of visiting Mexico and their father?


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## sixcats (Aug 1, 2015)

You don't say what field you (nor your husband) are in. 

If 'I' were coming to Mexico to look for work (in my former field) with US kids, which I am not, I'd check out the Sante Fe area of DF - although I like where we live a lot more. Just today I had a very interesting (happenstance) conversation with someone (in English) that might lead to something/sometime in the PeriSur area.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

After reading all the posts so far, it sounds like the Baja California suggestion makes the most sense in her situation. To maintain a close relationship, distance matters. The less, the better.

The job situation is critical, too. Good jobs are hard to find in Mexico and Mexicans are much higher on the preference list. Non-Spanish speaking foreigner: very difficult. Kids? More problems. I'd try my luck near the border.


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## AliciaLyons (Aug 14, 2015)

mes1952 said:


> Most of the areas where there are many English-speaking expats also are the more expensive places to live. And in addition you won't be able to find a decent (not even good) paying job without being fluent in Spanish and even then it will be much less than in the U.S.
> Most of the families I've met here in Baja (close to the border) who have a deported family member simply move just across the border into Mexico where the family can live but go to school (and be employed) in the U.S. OR the family remains in the U.S. and visits the deported member. Otherwise it will be very difficult for everyone and might cause even more family problems. And it is somewhat expensive for you to obtain Mexican citizenship; it is not free and you have to provide documentation along with costs; you are not automatically a Mexican citizen (nor are your children) just because you are married to a Mexican national. You need to seek the advice of an attorney very knowledgeable about Mexican laws and decide is it really worth it to leave the U.S.


Thank you! These are the things I want to hear! It sounds like the best option is to live close to the border and continue to work in the US. As well as keep the kids enrolled in US schools. I don't think we will be moving anytime soon and plan to visit as much as we can. I'm just trying to get an idea of what its like and even if this is something our family could do.


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## AliciaLyons (Aug 14, 2015)

WintheWin said:


> I think your 12 year old will struggle considerably.
> More-so considering… 6 more years, and she can be off to college.
> Depending on where you currently work…
> You're likely facing a VERY radical change of lifestyle, not only culturally, but financially.
> ...


I think at this point until he is there for a while and we can figure things out we plan to just visit. Emotions are very high right now I guess and I'm just trying to think of anything we can do to make this work. I agree I want my children to have the best and it seems selfish of me/us to take them to a country that would deprive them of opportunity....Thank you for the advice.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

I know a young lady who married an illegal. He returned to Mexico and married someone else eventually. She ended up with four children, no job, no support and a marriage on record. Disaster after disaster and she lost three of the children and, last we knew, was still dependent on welfare and often homeless.
I suggest that you cover your backside and proceed very cautiously, if at all. Mexico is, indeed, a fabulous place, but only if you are an expat with resources. Expecting to find work and have happy kids may be a pipe-dream at this point in your life. If your husband can earn enough to support you all in Mexico, things would be different. However, there is a reason why he worked illegally in the USA; probably lack of education and job prospects in Mexico. That is the common situation.


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## sixcats (Aug 1, 2015)

RVGRINGO said:


> I know a young lady who married an illegal. He returned to Mexico and married someone else eventually. She ended up with four children, no job, no support and a marriage on record. Disaster after disaster and she lost three of the children and, last we knew, was still dependent on welfare and often homeless.
> I suggest that you cover your backside and proceed very cautiously, if at all. Mexico is, indeed, a fabulous place, but only if you are an expat with resources. Expecting to find work and have happy kids may be a pipe-dream at this point in your life. If your husband can earn enough to support you all in Mexico, things would be different. However, there is a reason why he worked illegally in the USA; probably lack of education and job prospects in Mexico. That is the common situation.


But you have no idea of her situation. She may have a great job with a fortune 100 firm in the US and can transfer. She did not give enough details to give real advice.


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## AliciaLyons (Aug 14, 2015)

I work for an very large Insurance company and have held several different positions over the last 13 years. I currently support 2 Section Managers in claims. Most of the work I have done involves Secretary/administrative responsibilities. My Fiancé hangs drywall in homes. He had his own crew and was the boss of several people for a company here.


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## sixcats (Aug 1, 2015)

AliciaLyons said:


> I work for an very large Insurance company and have held several different positions over the last 13 years. I currently support 2 Section Managers in claims. Most of the work I have done involves Secretary/administrative responsibilities. My Fiancé hangs drywall in homes. He had his own crew and was the boss of several people for a company here.


So - doesn't sound like you need to live out in the boonies. Perhaps your current employer can set you up with a contact in your field ? And as for construction work - we visit Mexico City perhaps once a month and let me tell you - there are more construction booms in the skyline than anywhere I have ever seen.

There was a time in my career where I could have approached my employer of the time and lived anywhere in the world. We even felt each other out on some 'experiments'. I'll tell you this - if I were in my 20s/30s/40s - I would not hesitate to relocate my work/family to Mexico.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

mes1952 said:


> . . . Most of the families I've met here in Baja (close to the border) who have a deported family member simply move just across the border into Mexico where the family can live but go to school (and be employed) in the U.S. . . .


I'm a bit confused about this part of your post, mex1952. Can American children living in Mexico (even just across the border) attend schools in the US?


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## maesonna (Jun 10, 2008)

mes1952 said:


> you are not automatically a Mexican citizen (nor are your children) just because you are married to a Mexican national.


Let correct that slightly. If he is their father, yes they do automatically have Mexican nationality. The Mexican constitution says that a child born abroad to a Mexican father or mother is considered a Mexican national. So they don’t have Mexican nationality because you are married to a Mexican citizen, but they do have the nationality if their father is Mexican.

However they can’t claim their Mexican nationality until you do the corresponding paperwork. This means going to a Mexican consulate (in the US) or to a an office of Segob (Ministry of the Interior) (in Mexico) with their U.S. birth certificates, and their father’s Mexican birth certificate, and yours (and possibly they will require some other documents as well). 

The end result is that they will get their Mexican birth certificates for a Mexican national born abroad. From then on, that birth certificate is all they will need to prove their Mexican nationality. You can, for example, get them Mexican passports once they have their Mexican birth certificates.


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## AliciaLyons (Aug 14, 2015)

maesonna said:


> Let correct that slightly. If he is their father, yes they do automatically have Mexican nationality. The Mexican constitution says that a child born abroad to a Mexican father or mother is considered a Mexican national. So they don’t have Mexican nationality because you are married to a Mexican citizen, but they do have the nationality if their father is Mexican.
> 
> However they can’t claim their Mexican nationality until you do the corresponding paperwork. This means going to a Mexican consulate (in the US) or to a an office of Segob (Ministry of the Interior) (in Mexico) with their U.S. birth certificates, and their father’s Mexican birth certificate, and yours (and possibly they will require some other documents as well).
> 
> The end result is that they will get their Mexican birth certificates for a Mexican national born abroad. From then on, that birth certificate is all they will need to prove their Mexican nationality. You can, for example, get them Mexican passports once they have their Mexican birth certificates.


Thank you!!! Yes they are his children. We have been together for over 13 years just never married. I know silly that we aren't married yet. We were planning to next year and then this all happened. Thanks for the information!


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## AliciaLyons (Aug 14, 2015)

sixcats said:


> So - doesn't sound like you need to live out in the boonies. Perhaps your current employer can set you up with a contact in your field ? And as for construction work - we visit Mexico City perhaps once a month and let me tell you - there are more construction booms in the skyline than anywhere I have ever seen.
> 
> There was a time in my career where I could have approached my employer of the time and lived anywhere in the world. We even felt each other out on some 'experiments'. I'll tell you this - if I were in my 20s/30s/40s - I would not hesitate to relocate my work/family to Mexico.


I am in my 30's. I know that my employer is not in Mexico but I could possible find employment with them in the US close to the border. Just not sure what would be the best border town to live.


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## AliciaLyons (Aug 14, 2015)

lagoloo said:


> After reading all the posts so far, it sounds like the Baja California suggestion makes the most sense in her situation. To maintain a close relationship, distance matters. The less, the better.
> 
> The job situation is critical, too. Good jobs are hard to find in Mexico and Mexicans are much higher on the preference list. Non-Spanish speaking foreigner: very difficult. Kids? More problems. I'd try my luck near the border.


Thank you! I will start to look in this area! I think you're right. If we can stay close enough where I can still make a good income and keep our family together more often than not it will be best.


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## AliciaLyons (Aug 14, 2015)

RVGRINGO said:


> I know a young lady who married an illegal. He returned to Mexico and married someone else eventually. She ended up with four children, no job, no support and a marriage on record. Disaster after disaster and she lost three of the children and, last we knew, was still dependent on welfare and often homeless.
> I suggest that you cover your backside and proceed very cautiously, if at all. Mexico is, indeed, a fabulous place, but only if you are an expat with resources. Expecting to find work and have happy kids may be a pipe-dream at this point in your life. If your husband can earn enough to support you all in Mexico, things would be different. However, there is a reason why he worked illegally in the USA; probably lack of education and job prospects in Mexico. That is the common situation.


I have a great job, own my home, family support here and will be able to support my children without his income. Very tough it's going to be without his income yes but it's not about that. We have a family together and love each. We have been together over 13 years and he came here illegal time after time to be here with us and support his family here. At this point if he is caught again he will do prison time and that will be devistating to us all. Just wanting to see if at all possible we can make this work and be together.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I have friends who are in a similar situation, He works in San Diego and the family lives in Rosarito and he goes home every week-end. It is not perfect but it is the only way they can work it out. The kids are US /Mexican citizens but the mother was caught and deported so they do not want to chance it again and they live in Mexico.
I wish you good luck and hope you can find a solution and can all live together.


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## michmex (Jul 15, 2012)

RVGRINGO said:


> Mexico is, indeed, a fabulous place, but only if you are an expat with resources. Expecti.


I personally know many, many Mexicans of all ages and income levels who politely disagree with your statement!


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## WintheWin (Jul 15, 2015)

Isla Verde said:


> I'm a bit confused about this part of your post, mex1952. Can American children living in Mexico (even just across the border) attend schools in the US?


There's two ways to do this. I did this for my last two years of HS.
3 Options…

US Private School. 400-500dlls a month, here in the Imperial Valley.
Public School, but pay "tuition" to the school district. It is an absurd amount. Last I remember, it was somewhere between 450-550$ a month.

Public School… with a family member's/friend's/etc address…

The School system tries to weed out individuals who are "borrowing" addresses, goes to the home to investigate, etc, then gives you 3 days to prove residency or they kick you out of school. 
Which is absurd… because then, these people who are kicked out of school, end up coming to the US anyways, uneducated, trying to get their GED, struggling, and just falling behind a couple of years in their education. 

Seen this happened first hand.
Paid "tuition" until it became unfeasible, and then proceeded to rent an apartment, so I could establish state residency to go to college. 

It's a tough lifestyle for a kid, honestly. Walking a handful of miles every day. Commuting large distances, ugh, teen angst on top of that...


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

AliciaLyons said:


> I have a great job, own my home, family support here and will be able to support my children without his income. .


And, you and your children have the best chance to have a better life where they are right now, IMHO. Sounds like you are already use to him not being with you for extended times, so you will be able to adjust to that much easier, with less damage to your children, IMHO. Good luck.


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## WintheWin (Jul 15, 2015)

michmex said:


> I personally know many, many Mexicans of all ages and income levels who politely disagree with your statement!


I think this occurs because of a difference in culture.

I know many families… who are very content with their lives, and they believe they earn what they deserve, and that's how it should be. Obviously, more money would be better, but they're just… happy with what they have. 

And I think as expats, we're more accustomed to earning… well, more, and having more 'stuff'… and pretty much, we set ourselves up for a different standard of living.

But a lot of people in Mexico, particularly lower income groups, tend to accept their socio-economic standing, and settle for it. 

Being here often enough, it really opens your eyes to how much money you really need to live a healthy, happy life. So many people do it, why don't we?

Not that I totally agree with how these people see themselves, as they invariable raise their children the same way, and have this long line of near-poverty generations.

I think in the US, you can work your ass off, and earn a pretty bit of change.

In Mexico, sometimes you can work 60+ hour workweeks, and walk away with 2,000-3,000-ish pesos. Get a pat in the back for putting in the extra effort, don't get any overtime, not 'really…' and be happy you have IMSS. (Sadly… I'm not just talking working class, like factory/retail/warehouse/industrial… but also engineers, physicians, etc… private industry is VERY UNDERPAID.)


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## AliciaLyons (Aug 14, 2015)

citlali said:


> I have friends who are in a similar situation, He works in San Diego and the family lives in Rosarito and he goes home every week-end. It is not perfect but it is the only way they can work it out. The kids are US /Mexican citizens but the mother was caught and deported so they do not want to chance it again and they live in Mexico.
> I wish you good luck and hope you can find a solution and can all live together.


Thank you!!! I hope so too! We don't want to chance it again either.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

WintheWin said:


> I think this occurs because of a difference in culture.
> 
> .)


I agree, Mexican culture is very different from US culture. That is why so many people from south of the US border are never assimilated into the US culture. Value of education, health considerations, personal hygiene, expectations, etc. can be very different. So, the more that venture NOB, the more the gap becomes between US citizens and illegals living in the same country. Just making them "legal" does nothing to close this gap, IMHO.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

coondawg said:


> I agree, Mexican culture is very different from US culture. That is why so many people from south of the US border are never assimilated into the US culture. Value of education, health considerations, personal hygiene, expectations, etc. can be very different. So, the more that venture NOB, the more the gap becomes between US citizens and illegals living in the same country. Just making them "legal" does nothing to close this gap, IMHO.


Everybody is entitled to their opinion. IMHO that sounds like nonsense.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

TundraGreen said:


> Everybody is entitled to their opinion. IMHO that sounds like nonsense.


You are entitled to be wrong, IMHO. If you are interested in the truth, you are invited to visit me in Texas, and I will show you what I am referring to.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

coondawg said:


> I agree, Mexican culture is very different from US culture. That is why so many people from south of the US border are never assimilated into the US culture. Value of education, health considerations, personal hygiene, expectations, etc. can be very different. So, the more that venture NOB, the more the gap becomes between US citizens and illegals living in the same country. Just making them "legal" does nothing to close this gap, IMHO.


And then there are all those foreigners who move to Mexico and never quite fit in, never assimilate to the local culture. And most of them are legal, so what's your point?


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## buzzbar (Feb 9, 2013)

A couple of things that make me cringe: 1 Disparate people of contrasting ages, countries of origin, employment skills, asipirations and family circumstances lumped together under the offensive label of "illegals". 2 Lingering support for the outmoded and discredited concept of 'assimilation', something that has died a natural death in many other countries where it has been replaced by respecting, and in many cases celebrating, cultural differences, and recognizing how diversity can enrich a community.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

buzzbar said:


> A couple of things that make me cringe: 1 Disparate people of contrasting ages, countries of origin, employment skills, asipirations and family circumstances lumped together under the offensive label of "illegals". 2 Lingering support for the outmoded and discredited concept of 'assimilation', something that has died a natural death in many other countries where it has been replaced by respecting, and in many cases celebrating, cultural differences, and recognizing how diversity can enrich a community.


I cringe along with you when I hear those things. My immigrant forebears did their damndest to "assimilate" with the end result that their descendants lost all traces of their heritage....with the exception of a few good food recipes and cuss words.
IMHO, "respect" and "appreciation" beats "assimilation."


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## mes1952 (Dec 11, 2012)

You don't mention your profession but you should do research about salaries in the San Diego area as they are very low compared to the high cost of living. Many Mexicans cross the border every day to work in the San Diego area so employers don't have to pay competitive salaries. If you do much investigating about the salaries you'll probably be shocked at how low they are in that area. Plus you have the state income tax as well. And you probably won't be able to afford to buy a house unless you live way way way way out of the San Diego area. The El Paso area might be a better solution considering the cost of living.


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## mes1952 (Dec 11, 2012)

If you have never been to Mexico esp. in those rural areas you are going to find they treat females very differently from what you are accustomed in the U.S. which will be a culture shock for someone who has never been to Mexico. In the past, I had a Mexican boyfriend and we would visit various families in small towns/ranchos for several weeks and it was liked when we crossed the border into Mexico, he became a different person, i.e., he wouldn't let me out of his sight and I felt somewhat like a prisoner esp. if you are in an all-Spanish speaking area (despite the fact that I speak Spanish).


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Illegals from SOB generally have little or no education, and are very poor. You tell me how that combination fits into a country that is among the top in the world in education and living style, and is the envy for how its people live, of the people of most countries in the world? Sure there are poor in the US, but being poor Americans is nothing like being poor from SOB. They basically can do only the low paying jobs, and so who pays for the education of their children, medical care, etc. ? I will extend that "invitation" to any here who "know it all" and want to find out the real truth about how illegals actually mesh and make the US stronger. Immigrants from many countries other than SOB come with education and financial support that these illegals do not have. As a result, they fit into the US culture, where these illegals do not. The truth will set you free !


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

coondawg said:


> Illegals from SOB generally have little or no education, and are very poor. You tell me how that combination fits into a country that is among the top in the world in education and living style, and is the envy for how its people live, of the people of most countries in the world? Sure there are poor in the US, but being poor Americans is nothing like being poor from SOB. They basically can do only the low paying jobs, and so who pays for the education of their children, medical care, etc. ? I will extend that "invitation" to any here who "know it all" and want to find out the real truth about how illegals actually mesh and make the US stronger. Immigrants from many countries other than SOB come with education and financial support that these illegals do not have. As a result, they fit into the US culture, where these illegals do not. The truth will set you free !


I would think someone from Texas would be careful talking about respect for education. Just google "Texas schools evolution" to see how much respect Texas has for education.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I wonder how people from the Middle East and Africa fit better in Europe. Better get used to it: people from poor and or troubled countries leave and settle where the grass is greener , that is the history of the world so get used to it. No wall, policies or nastiness will stop it.
The us profit from the undocumented workers they keep the prices of produce low on the shelves, someone has to do low paid dirty work and you sure cannot find ll the workers neeed for those jobs.
Unemployed citizens are refusing to do those jobs so the work has to be done and people who are willing to work for lower wages or are willing to work very hard fill the jobs.

I ran a winery and vineyard in Northern California and warehouses in East LA and without undocumented workers we had no workers for the harvest or were always short for exra work in the warehouses.
The immigration busted us and made us check every workers and I had to go to a class to be able to make the difference between real and false green cards.. In that amphitheaters there were restaurants owners, constructions companies supervisors, hotels managers garment industry companies´managers and farmers none of which could get enough documented employees to do the job.
Undocumented pay social security which they will never claim. All of these people and there were from many different countries..the garment industry in San Francisco relies on many Asian workers, Mexicans are just one of the many nationalities that constitures undocumented workers and no not all undocumented workers are poor and uneducated, there were plenty of Europeans who had overstayed their visas working in restaurants as well.
Mexicans are not the only ones and they are not bad people because they are undocumented if they could get a visa to work they would but they could not and they were badly needed. To say that these people do not fit is being ignorant.
Our workers back in 98 were paid by the ton for the harvest , if you broke down the pay per hour they made 20 dollars an hour and that was good pay in those days but they worked their butt off, came for the harvest and left. They bought new jeans. hats , boots and belts stayed at the fiesta and took a bus from the fiesta to go back down to the border.
All of our cellar workers and regular vineyard workers were documente some had become US citizens but most of them had come as undocumented and had gotten papers.

I worked with Mexicans most of my carreer some were legal some not and frankly I did not care as long as they did the job, did not bother me that they had different customs and a different language that was part of the fun of working in East LA or Napa or San Fancisco.

The undocumented immigrants are getting a bad rap and it is interesting to me that all we hear is about Mexicans when Chinese come by the boat load to the West Coast. Actually the new immigrants were referred to as" FOB" fresh off the boat and you never hear anyone rant about them. Why? 
I guess they did not go into Texas or Arizona and a wall would be pretty useless to stop them.

Rich Chinese are also now coming legally to the West coast and are taking over areas pricing everyone out of the market. Do these people fit better than the "illegals"? Listening to the locals who feel they are being priced out of their town, they do not. I say adapt because people are going to keep on coming legally or not , like it or not.


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## mes1952 (Dec 11, 2012)

In the past I had relationships with men from everywhere except the U.S. , mostly from Mexico & Latin America, and I found that generally people from the Middle East and Asia value education much more than those of Latin American countries. It's just part of the culture of that region. That's why you see so many Middle Easterners owning/operating convenience stores and most of them have college degrees either in their country or in the U.S.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Still no takers on the "invite". I thought not. Everyone wants to live in their own little world. It's open always, no deadline. TG, need to check into the reasons why the Texas scores are low in some areas, (poor homes and uneducated parents that do not help their children). I was hoping to get into some intellectual batter here, but I see most are not prepared.


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## sixcats (Aug 1, 2015)

It was my impression that the recent emigration from SOB was sanctioned by the US Government - for whatever reason (and I have some ideas) - much like the way the Mariel boatlift was sanctioned . We used to walk along the beach at sunrise and marvel at the crude rafts that had washed up on shore overnight. That people would launch their lives into the ocean for 90 some miles on such crafts was amazing.

When we lived in Austin in the late 90's there were tons of 'illegals' serving as landscapers, housemaids etc. - in some of the wealthiest areas - perhaps even in the governor's mansion if I remember correctly.

The sugar industry in South Florida has some sort of special arrangement where they bring in Jamaicans to harvest the sugar cane every year. They are allowed to pay very very little.

The town in South Florida which shared the same zip code as ours had at one point 70,000 Brazilian immigrants ! Many families sharing the same roof. When the housing market collapsed - and all the construction jobs vanished so did those immigrants - many with abandoned obligations.

I don't understand the recent uproar with SOB immigrants. Just some high profile individuals looking for attention. I don't even think most of those immigrants were Mexicans.


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## buzzbar (Feb 9, 2013)

I guess it's not uncommon these days for a person to have a USA-centric view of the world, and have little interest or knowledge of international or cultural alternatives and comparisons. It usually includes the belief that USA is best in the world for everything (including education and lifestyle, when by any credible measure it's not). And of course it's always accompanied by the fear that outsiders, who are poverty stricken, uneducated or otherwise inferior to us (they have bad personal hygiene!) are massed at the border ready to invade our shining city on the hill......


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## sixcats (Aug 1, 2015)

buzzbar said:


> I guess it's not uncommon these days for a person to have a USA-centric view of the world, and have little interest or knowledge of international or cultural alternatives and comparisons. It usually includes the belief that USA is best in the world for everything (including education and lifestyle, when by any credible measure it's not). And of course it's always accompanied by the fear that outsiders, who are poverty stricken, uneducated or otherwise inferior to us (they have bad personal hygiene!) are massed at the border ready to invade our shining city on the hill......


It's kind of like the mentality instilled in a group of players on a sports team. We are better than them. If we believe it we can make it happen.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

coondawg said:


> Still no takers on the "invite". I thought not. Everyone wants to live in their own little world. It's open always, no deadline. TG, need to check into the reasons why the Texas scores are low in some areas, (poor homes and uneducated parents that do not help their children). I was hoping to get into some intellectual batter here, but I see most are not prepared.


"Intellectual batter" 
....with that attitude? Not likely. Have you lived anywhere other than Texas?

Other than that, "but I see most are not prepared" is a rather insufferable declaration of intellectual superiority.......supported by..... what???

Did you read Citlali's post, which comes from experience?


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

lagoloo said:


> "Intellectual batter"
> ....with that attitude? Not likely. . . .


What exactly is "intellectual batter"? Maybe a baseball game with teams made up of players with high IQs? Or maybe coondawg meant to type "banter", but that darned spell check changed the spelling for him!


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

Isla Verde said:


> What exactly is "intellectual batter"? Maybe a baseball game with teams made up of players with high IQs? Or maybe coondawg meant to type "banter", but that darned spell check changed the spelling for him!


An "intellectual batter" would be one who had carefully analyzed the sport, si?


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Isla Verde said:


> And then there are all those foreigners who move to Mexico and never quite fit in, never assimilate to the local culture. And most of them are legal, so what's your point?


My post was a reply to and an agreement with WintheWin. The point was that the culture SOB (especially of the poorer) is very different from the general culture of the US. And, those who come illegally to the US rarely assimilate into that culture. If you have some information that shows that I am incorrect, I would be interest in reading it. Trying to change the subject to those who come from NOB to SOB benefits no one. If you have nothing to contradict my statement, just say so.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Isla Verde said:


> What exactly is "intellectual batter"? Maybe a baseball game with teams made up of players with high IQs? Or maybe coondawg meant to type "banter", but that darned spell check changed the spelling for him!


This is beneath what is expected of a Mod, no?  
I bet there is a rule that covers that if I had written it. But I would NEVER have written something like that about you.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

coondawg said:


> This is beneath what is expected of a Mod, no?
> I bet there is a rule that covers that if I had written it. But I would NEVER have written something like that about you.


Now I am confused. You said you were looking for "intellectual banter", ignoring typos. What is Isla's post if not "intellectual banter"?


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

Do intellectuals make that many “typos“? Probably. I taught some in Texas, and it was a dismal experience. Principals insisted that no child could get a failing grade; it looked bad for him and the school. 
Batter up!


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## sixcats (Aug 1, 2015)

RVGRINGO said:


> Do intellectuals make that many “typos“? Probably. I taught some in Texas, and it was a dismal experience. Principals insisted that no child could get a failing grade; it looked bad for him and the school.
> Batter up!


petty comment


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

TundraGreen said:


> Now I am confused.


I see I was finally able to get the truth from you ! I have known that for a long time !


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

coondawg said:


> I agree, Mexican culture is very different from US culture. That is why so many people from south of the US border are never assimilated into the US culture. Value of education, health considerations, personal hygiene, expectations, etc. can be very different. So, the more that venture NOB, the more the gap becomes between US citizens and illegals living in the same country. Just making them "legal" does nothing to close this gap, IMHO.


Sorry, you won't get any intellectual batter or banter from me with this kind of drivel. Nothing intellectually interesting or challenging in this post. I've tried too many times to have decent debate with people with such views, but it was an exercise in futility because they simply keep claiming that their beliefs are "the truth". But maybe I'm a glutton for punishment, because here goes anyway.

Of course Mexican culture is very different from US culture - all to the good (for both cultures - I do not equate "different" with superior or inferior). But to state those cultural differences are "value of education, health considerations, personal hygiene" is ridiculous. *There is much more variation on these particular measures within any given culture than between cultures.* 

I grew up in Nebraska (mostly German and Czech background in my area), I have lived in Kansas and Texas and travelled to many other US states. Believe me, on the personal hygiene front, I've met plenty of people born and bred in the USA with a lot to be desired. In general, in my experience Latin Americans are more careful with personal hygiene than many NOB North Americans and Europeans. And they can certainly keep their whites whiter - I never cease to be amazed by the shiny, scrubbed children in their neatly pressed school uniforms and perfectly groomed hair, even if they live in a house with a dirt floor. When my husband first moved to Canada from Mexico, he was surprised by how many Canadians would go out in public in what he calls "fachas" (basically poorly dressed) - one of his "mottoes to live by" is _"El desarreglo personal es el sepulcro de la persona"_. Another is _"¡Héchale ganas!"_ - basically meaning always try your best and keep on trying. I don't think he's a cultural anomaly by any means. 

In terms of valuing education, just because many Mexicans are not able to* access* better educational opportunities for their children, does not mean that they don't *value* a better education. I know many Mexican families where each generation has steadily achieved a higher level of education than the preceding one - grandparents with a few years of primary school, grandchildren with university degrees or even PhDs. Many others scrimp and save to put their children in a private school, even if it's a humble one, because they want them to have better educational opportunities. Of course there are those families in Mexico who don't highly value education, just like there are in the US. But to state this is one of the "cultural differences" between the US and Mexico is ridiculous. By the way, on most measures of education by country, the US is not at the top. Actually Canada generally comes in ahead of the US - e.g. on the PISA results from OECD - but I will not say that therefore a cultural difference between Canada and the US is how we in Canada value education. It may reflect how we fund public education, though... 

Re: "Health considerations" - not sure what you mean by this. If you are talking about healthy lifestyle, I really don't think you can be pointing fingers at Mexico vs the US. Again there are many health conscious people in both countries, who eat mostly healthy foods and are physically active (probably the lower access to personal cars in Mexico gives them an edge with the latter). But there are lots in both countries who eat too much unhealthy food, drink too much pop, are obese and sedentary, etc. I'm confident there is way more consumption of processed foods in the US than in Mexico. 

There certainly are many subtle cultural differences between Mexico and the US that would be interesting to discuss, but your list does not include those, just a list of prejudices and overgeneralizations.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

coondawg said:


> This is beneath what is expected of a Mod, no?
> I bet there is a rule that covers that if I had written it. But I would NEVER have written something like that about you.


Just a joke, coondawg, a mere play on words.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

ojosazules11 said:


> Sorry, you won't get any intellectual batter or banter from me with this kind of drivel. Nothing intellectually interesting or challenging in this post. I've tried too many times to have decent debate with people with such views, but it was an exercise in futility because they simply keep claiming that their beliefs are "the truth". But maybe I'm a glutton for punishment, because here goes anyway.
> 
> Of course Mexican culture is very different from US culture - all to the good (for both cultures - I do not equate "different" with superior or inferior). But to state those cultural differences are "value of education, health considerations, personal hygiene" is ridiculous. *There is much more variation on these particular measures within any given culture than between cultures.*
> 
> ...


Great response, ojos. I give you "un montón" of "likes"!!! N.B. _Montón_ = _heap_ or _pile_ of something. In other words, a whole lot of something.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

My mistake.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

coondawg said:


> "But I would NEVER have written something like that about you. "
> 
> UNLESS, I thought I could get away with it !


If you can catch me making a spelling mistake, go for it, but I warn you that I am a demon speller, without the aid of spell check!


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## WintheWin (Jul 15, 2015)

…and poor AliciaLyons, here earnest request for help, devolved into something about illegal batters? I lost track of it a couple of pages in.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

AliciaLyons said:


> I am currently entertaining the idea of moving to Mexico with my 2 children. My fiancé is currently in the process of being deported and will have a bar of at the least 10 years before being able to apply for a waiver. We have 2 daughters ages 12 and 6. We have visited Mexico before in my fiancé's home town of Hidalgo de Parral in Chihuahua. So I do know a little bit of what it is like there. But have no idea what it is like to live there. Me nor my daughters speak Spanish. I have a very well-paying job here where we live and all of my family pretty much in the same town. So I would be giving up a lot. But I do not want to split up our family. Is there places to live that you could get by speaking English? Where is a safe place to live with good schools. I don’t know how my kids would adjust to school not knowing any Spanish. Any advice is appreciated. Thank you!


Sorry things got off track. Let me say that when you ask here, the responses you get are from people that know very little about you and what makes you tick, and none of us will be at your side when things go wrong (hopefully nothing will) for you or your children. We are strangers and any experiences we relate to you about things we know or have heard about in your situation, we offer no guarantees that those people had a lot, or nothing, in common with your lifestyle, or that of your children. What each of us would do in your situation is not important to you, because it is for you to decide what is best for you and your family, not us. You decide, not us.

However, there are those who love you and your children dearly, and will be at your side in a minute were any of you in need of their help. And, they will always be there for you, always. These people are your family, and they understand you and what makes you tick, and any "peculiar" traits that you have, if any. They saw you grow up and they helped you become the person you are now. They know you, like no others do.They only want the best for all of you, always, and they do not wish to see any of you hurt or lost. Ask them and listen carefully to what they say. Surely you have respect for many of them. They may not tell you what you want to hear, but they will tell you what you need to hear. Would you trust any of them with your children if something happened to you? If so, trust what they tell you.

Good luck !


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

coondawg said:


> Sorry things got off track. Let me say that when you ask here, the responses you get are from people that know very little about you and what makes you tick, and none of us will be at your side when things go wrong (hopefully nothing will) for you or your children. We are strangers and any experiences we relate to you about things we know or have heard about in your situation, we offer no guarantees that those people had a lot, or nothing, in common with your lifestyle, or that of your children. What each of us would do in your situation is not important to you, because it is for you to decide what is best for you and your family, not us. You decide, not us.
> 
> However, there are those who love you and your children dearly, and will be at your side in a minute were any of you in need of their help. And, they will always be there for you, always. These people are your family, and they understand you and what makes you tick, and any "peculiar" traits that you have, if any. They saw you grow up and they helped you become the person you are now. They know you, like no others do.They only want the best for all of you, always, and they do not wish to see any of you hurt or lost. Ask them and listen carefully to what they say. Surely you have respect for many of them. They may not tell you what you want to hear, but they will tell you what you need to hear. Would you trust any of them with your children if something happened to you? If so, trust what they tell you.
> 
> Good luck !


Coondawg, thanks for getting this thread back on track and even more thanks for posting such sensible, heart-felt advice to the OP!


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## Cristobal (Nov 25, 2014)

Intellectual batter? Sort of an oxymoron, especially according to one of the all-time greats, Yogi Berra who stated "you can't think and hit".


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## fmr pnw (May 31, 2015)

Yogi Berra also said, "if you don't go to other people's funerals, they won't come to yours."

I admit hat it doesn't address the topic at hand, but if you're going to quote the exquisite Yogi Berra, then so am I.....


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

*******'s advice about family has its limits. It depends on the family. Some have prejudices that get in the way of giving good advice. I've known a few. Some have deep negative feelings about marrying out of one's class, religion or ethnic group. In such cases, they would do whatever they could to help the couple fail.

However, his advice is true when speaking about open minded, generous families who just want to see their children happy.


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

lagoloo said:


> *******'s advice about family has its limits. It depends on the family. Some have prejudices that get in the way of giving good advice. I've known a few. Some have deep negative feelings about marrying out of one's class, religion or ethnic group. In such cases, they would do whatever they could to help the couple fail.
> 
> However, his advice is true when speaking about open minded, generous families who just want to see their children happy.


I agree. Also, one has to balance the issues of quality of schools, higher paying wages, and cultural adaptation (which can be a good thing, too, in the long run) with the children being separated from their father. Good fathers are important in children's lives. Also, from Maesonna's posts in the past, I believe high quality public schools do exist in Mexico, but may not be guaranteed, depending on where you relocate. Adequate paying work is a significant issue, of course. You need to feed, clothe and house your children.

Others have touched on the subject of EVERYBODY changing with the move to Mexico. This is true. Not just the kids will have to adapt, so will both mom and dad. Even though dad is from Mexico, I agree that people change when they have spent time in another country and move back to their country of origin. There will be culture shock for all of you, and there may well be times you look at your partner and ask, "Who are you and what have you done with my husband?" Being prepared for this and having open communication ahead of time and going forward are crucial. 

The individual "culture" of his family of origin will also have an impact if you end up moving back to where his family lives. Less so if you settle elsewhere, e.g. near the border or a different city. 

I love discussing the dynamics of cross-cultural families, given that is my life experience. Also, just because you know of a cross-cultural marriage that didn't work, please don't generalize to all cross-cultural relationships. I've experienced both awful and wonderful (I've been married twice, both times to Latin Americans). And the awful (first marriage) wasn't actually due to the cross-cultural aspect, but his own personal demons he was battling. We got along better than he did with his own family and friends! Live and learn ...


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

A good man or a good father is hard to find, and not to be separated from lightly. My own father made a huge difference in my life. 

This woman has a very tricky road to travel. I hope some of the advice we've given without knowing her will be helpful. It's not easy to move to a foreign country in your senior years, but at least your children are on their own with their education finished. Young children complicate the matter greatly.


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