# Train derailment



## DunWorkin (Sep 2, 2010)

I hope no one here was affected by the terrible disaster last night near Santiago de Compostela.

Our thoughts go out to those injured and to the friends and families of those who lost their lives.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

dreadful, absolutely dreadful



> *Spain train crash: scores killed, more than 130 injured*
> 
> Provisional death toll rises to 77 after train with 247 people on board derails near Santiago de Compostela


Spain train crash: scores killed, more than 130 injured | World news | The Guardian


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## Filsh (Apr 8, 2013)

So terribly sad to hear the news this morning. Our thoughts and prayers are with the victims, family and friends affected by this.


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## tarot650 (Sep 30, 2007)

My heart felt condolences to the families,friends and loved ones.R.I.P.


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## Navas (Sep 2, 2012)

Such awful news. My condolences to family and friends.


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## goingtobcn (Sep 9, 2012)

Horrible horrible news. Thinking of all involved.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

One of my previous jobs was to investigate train accidents and incidents. Since I can't get there to look at the scene closely and examine the track in the rear of the accident or the vehicles themselves, I can only guess at the possible cause. 

From the pictures/videos we have seen, the suggestion that the train was doing 100kph more than the limit would look to be a possible cause although I would have expected the over-riding of one coach by another to be more severe, so I suspect that the excess speed was not quite as great as suggested. How the train came to be going at such an excessive speed (if, indeed, that was the case) raises a number of other questions which are too involved to list here.


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## olivefarmer (Oct 16, 2012)

Raw Footage: Spain Train CRASH Near Santiago De Compostela | Accidente Tren en España - YouTube

Actual footage of the crash happening so not for the squeamish.

?I hope there are no deaths - they would weigh heavily on my conscience? | In English | EL PAÍS

The driver looks as though he has rather a lot of explaining to do. Grim. What a tragedy


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## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

Allegedly the driver has admitted travelling at twice the permitted speed. There are also allegations that ertms wasn't installed as the money had run out.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

I've been reviewing the photos and the video and it appears to me that the rear power unit was pushing harder than the front unit was pulling (if it was still under traction and not actually being braked). When the train came into the bend the force from the rear acting in a straight line that would have been tangential to the curve caused the centre of the train to be pushed out of line and resulting in it coming off the rails (the centre of the train was off the rails when it came under the road bridge). This has the effect of twisting the connecting link between the vehicle moving outwards and the next one ahead forcing its trailing end outwards and its leading end inwards causing jack-knifing of it and the other vehicles. The effect along the train caused the second or third vehicles to strike one of the pylons supporting the overhead wires bringing them down (the cause of the flash).

The continuing force from the momentum of the rear was sufficient to cause at least one vehicle to override the one in front either because the front of the train was being braked heavily or its speed being seriously reduced because of collision with the line-side structures

However, this is all conjecture since I'm not there and only passing on my opinion.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

My thoughts are with all involved.


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> I've been reviewing the photos and the video and it appears to me that the rear power unit was pushing harder than the front unit was pulling (if it was still under traction and not actually being braked). When the train came into the bend the force from the rear acting in a straight line that would have been tangential to the curve caused the centre of the train to be pushed out of line and resulting in it coming off the rails (the centre of the train was off the rails when it came under the road bridge). This has the effect of twisting the connecting link between the vehicle moving outwards and the next one ahead forcing its trailing end outwards and its leading end inwards causing jack-knifing of it and the other vehicles. The effect along the train caused the second or third vehicles to strike one of the pylons supporting the overhead wires bringing them down (the cause of the flash).
> 
> The continuing force from the momentum of the rear was sufficient to cause at least one vehicle to override the one in front either because the front of the train was being braked heavily or its speed being seriously reduced because of collision with the line-side structures
> 
> However, this is all conjecture since I'm not there and only passing on my opinion.


Having read the above & also looking at the vid countless times it does indeed seem that the prime mover was getting a help from behind, much the same as an artic jacknifing.

Well spotted.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

playamonte said:


> Having read the above & also looking at the vid countless times it does indeed seem that the prime mover was getting a help from behind, much the same as an artic jacknifing.
> 
> Well spotted.


One of the key tools when identifying the causes of accidents is looking for anomalies and what is not as it should be. I thoroughly enjoyed the job and have wondered if I should write it all down but then, I guess, it would be boring for most.


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

It's a truly shocking tragedy. The slow motion footage gives some idea why the identity of some victims will take days or weeks to confirm. It looks as if the driver (who has now been arrested) was trying to brake, although it was too little, too late. Would you concur, Baldi?

Spain Train CRASH Slow Motion in Santiago || Accidente de tren en Santiago Compostela Camara lenta - YouTube


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

Was watching some Spanish TV earlier & they are really cracking on clearing the track/repairs etc.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Madliz said:


> It's a truly shocking tragedy. The slow motion footage gives some idea why the identity of some victims will take days or weeks to confirm. It looks as if the driver (who has now been arrested) was trying to brake, although it was too little, too late. Would you concur, Baldi?
> 
> Spain Train CRASH Slow Motion in Santiago || Accidente de tren en Santiago Compostela Camara lenta - YouTube


As I said previously the rear appears to be pushing far harder than the front is pulling which could either be because there was less tractive effort at the front or it was being braked. By the time the train reaches that road bridge carrying the E1, the 2nd/3rd vehicles are already out of line and starting to derail. That point is only about 50m into that bend. If it was just the speed that was the cause then the train would have crashed much sooner because there are more severe bends before that point. Interestingly, up until a few years ago, that line was only single tracked and was still so even as late as October 2007.

The train had only just come out of servicing that morning which may also offer clues. It is my suspicion that either the control to the rear power car was lost allowing it to over-run or there was a control malfunction allowing the motors to run-away. 

I just hope that those who are investigating have minds open enough to consider this line of thought, instead of just jumping to the conclusion that the driver was deliberately going too fast.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> I thoroughly enjoyed the job and have wondered if I should write it all down but then, I guess, it would be boring for most.


Noooooo.... write a book! Be it short or long and then publish it as an ebook. I did the ebook version for a friend's hard copy book and both she and I enjoyed the process. Her topic was peri-menopause, menopause, and post-menopause from a nontraditional approach... and it is only 90 pages long. Now available on 50 web sites, my friend found a great satisfaction doing the book and then the ebook. 

GO FOR IT!!!!!


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## celia50 (Nov 4, 2010)

playamonte said:


> Was watching some Spanish TV earlier & they are really cracking on clearing the track/repairs etc.


Very tragic accident,thinking of the families' suffering and losing their loved ones as I watched the Noticias 24h


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## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

According to the Spanish press. the driver rang his control just before the crash and admitted he was going too fast. He has also previously made some strange comments about speeding on his Facebook site. The Spanish have yet to say why the ertms was not continued in this area - the rumours say the money ran out.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Calas felices said:


> According to the Spanish press. the driver rang his control just before the crash and admitted he was going too fast. He has also previously made some strange comments about speeding on his Facebook site. The Spanish have yet to say why the ertms was not continued in this area - the rumours say the money ran out.


I believe his words were "I am going too fast, what do I do?" which has a totally different meaning and implication from 'admitted he was going too fast' and it is my impression that he was no longer in control of the speed of the train (possibly because of a malfunction in the control system). One should not take the scribblings of the media too literally, they are just looking for somebody to blame and vent their vitriolic anger on. As for the Facebook matter, it has been suggested that it had been hacked by some evil minded moron and that is one of the reasons it has been blocked to prevent further unauthorised intrusions.


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## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

I assume his alleged words were also taken from a press report unless you have inside knowledge. It would appear the 'evil minded moron' who allegedly hacked in must have had foreknowledge because the comments about speeding were posted in March this year.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Calas felices said:


> I assume his alleged words were also taken from a press report unless you have inside knowledge. It would appear the 'evil minded moron' who allegedly hacked in must have had foreknowledge because the comments about speeding were posted in March this year.


The recording of his conversation was originally broadcast very early on before it was taken off as evidence. How clear is the evidence that the hacking was actually then and the data not modified to show an incorrect date?


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## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

Bravo on your immaculate translation of Catalan whilst spoken under stress. The evidence seems pretty good unless at the same time 'the moron' also managed to hack a number of his colleagues' Facebook accounts when they replied.


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## whitenoiz (Sep 18, 2012)

Part RANT, part explanation...
Firstly let me express my condolences to all that have been affected by this tragedy.










I am really having to bite my tongue at some of the statements being made on this and other forums and in the National Press. Comments made by people have have absolutely no idea about what they are talking about. So far, EL Pais is about the only media source that has told it essentially like it is.

Lets get one or two things straight...

Concerning the drivers FB page and the supposedly damning picture of his trains speedo showing that he was travelling at 200KPH...

1) in order to keep to the timetable the drivers are required to travel at this speed and indeed even higher. The Alvia 730 units are quite capable of running at 250kph and normally travel at around 220kph in order to keep to the schedule on AVE routes. His comments regarding the Guardia Civil were in response to an idiotic comment posted by someone else stating that 'he would lose all of his points.' As a general observation I would suggest that his response was tongue in cheek but logical when he referred 'to triggering GC radar speed traps or passing GC vehicles at 200kph.'

Haven't we all made remarks at some time that have come back and bitten us on the ass?

2) There is nothing unusual about posting pics of oneself at work on FB... one has only got to take a look at the number of in-cab train sequences and in cockpit aircraft videos on Youtube to realise that where people are proud of the job they are doing they want to show others what it's like... 

To be promoted to driving Alvia trainsets after a lifetime on the Regional trains is a real feather in ones cap. As in all walks of life, only the best get the promotions and the Alvia units are the next step on the ladder before final progression to the full AVE units where the trains speed capabilities are much, much higher at 300kph and 350kph.
200 kph sounds really fast doesnt it... but by Spanish High Speed rail standards its not that high... 200kph equates to 125mph, a speed regualarly achieved and indeed required by just about every European Rail Operator including BR... for the record 300kph is 186mph and is the normal Eurostar speed between London and Paris for example. As a former user of Eurostar when the train operated into Waterloo the contrast between running on French railways and then transitioning to UK speeds after the tunnel was simply appalling running at a satrt to stop average of just 50mph between Ashford and Waterloo 

On the subject of the trainsets being used here... The Alvia trainsets in their original form were designed as dual voltage (25kV / 3kV), dual-gauge units, designed from the outset to be used with the long established, lightweight, ultra low CofG articulated Talgo coaches. Talgo coaches were originally designed in Spain by Spanish engineers faced with the task of providing coaching stock which would perform well, providing higher speeds and comfort on the very tight bends encountered on the existing Spanish Rail network. The design was revolutionary; nothing like the normal 68ft long, 4 axle 8 wheels coaches normally encountered on other European railways. The coaching sets were designed such that a typical rake of 11 coaches would have just 13 axles with these axle mounted between the coaches. With a power car set at either one end or both the design set new standards in comfort and performance and set many new speed records. Originally diesel hauled, they sold well across Europe, parts of Asia and in the USA.

As Spain's AVE routes developed, it was soon realised that electric haulage was OK where this was availble... Spain at the time was running on a 3kV overhead system, but if higher performace and the capability of running International services was required then the locos would have to be capable of operating under the european 25kV overhead system, so dual voltage locos were procured. But then there was the question of running high speed, through services to cities on routes without an overhead catenary system... like Granada for example. So yet another variant was developed; a dual voltage power car with an add-on diesel electric generator car which would provide the electrical power required to drive the loco's. And so was born the Alvia S730 Hybrid unit, capable of running under its own power, either of the two overhead electric systems and on either Spanish or European track gauges.They and the lateset variants of the Talgo coaches could even change gauge without stopping, when transitioning between gauges. The S730's are in use in various parts of Spain, between stations in Murcia, Granada and Cadiz on mixed gauge routes to Madrid, and in the north west of the country between A'Coruna, Ferrol, Santiago and Madrid, essentially anywhere that there is a need for high speed trains that do not necessarily have the overhead electrics infrastructure.

Like all compromises however there is a price to pay...The original electric only Alvia trainsets were designed from the outset to be uktra low CofG , low bodied, short wheelbase articulated units with a built in pendular system allowing relatively high speeds on conventional (ie non AVE routes). I havent been able to find any specs for the diesel electric power cars that are used in the hybrid units but I do know that the power demands of the electric motors that drive the power cars are very high especially when starting or attacking steep gradients, it follows therefore that the diesel engines and generators in the hybrids must be very big and very heavy since each diesel electric generator is capable of producing 1.8MW. Its just a guess but I would suggest that the resulting CofG must be substantially higher than that of the coaches and the power cars.

In the much publicised CCTV video of the crash, it can be seen quite clearly that the lead powercar initiall handles the excessive speed through the curve, but what looks like the second vehicle in the rake comes unglued almost immediately. This second vehicle is in fact the diesel generator car... it rolls taking the attached tightly couple passengers cars with it and agin because of the tight coupling causes the lead power car to roll and derail too. This tends to bear out my suspicions about a much higher Cof G in the generator car.

It has been suggested that the rear power car may have been producing more push than the lead power cars pull... I would counter this by suggesting that the since the diesels were running at the time as witness the diesel smoke from the exhausts in the first film shot after the accident, this might well be the case. Both diesel generators are linked and synchronised, but since the lead pwer car and its diesel sets were already off the rails, and slowing due to friction, the trailing power car and its generator car were still running normally and so pushing the coaches... If this is the case then it definitely led to an decrease in the survivability of the resulting accident.

Why was the train running at such an excessive speed? I have my own theories about this...with increasing experience on routes train crews know to the second how long it takes to get from point A to point B and set the speed to comply with the timetable. RENFE have stated that when the train left Ourense it was five minutes late. On AVE and other high speed routes passengers can apply for a refund of their ticket prices if their train arrives more than 5 minutes late and drivers can be fined if they are found to be responsible for late running.

It has been suggested that the route from Ourense to Santiago has a lot of tight curves prior to the accident site... this is not so... I guess someone has been looking at the Google Earth or Google Maps imagery of the route; unfortunately the imagery is way out of date (2007/2008) and therefore does not take into account the substantial realignment that took place prior to the introduction of the AVE services.

The curve in question comes at the end of an 80km stretch of almost dead straight track which of itself would give an excellent opportunty to make up some lost time. In order to make up the lost time perhaps instead of running at 200kph the driver ran the route at 220kph which is still within the route and train type speed limits. Higher speed however means less point to point time... could it be the driver became disorientated and was further down the track than he realised only recognising his error when he entered the tunnel immediately preceding the sharp 80kph curve. It's the only explanation that makes any sense to me. 

I found this in cab video of a typical (but non AVE) train running between Ourense and Santiago. For the approach to the curve fast forward to t+30 minutes)

Ourense_Entrada de Santiago_S-121 - YouTube

This curve is the first of series of left and right handers as one draws into Santiago... all of these follow on curves are much tighter than the one at the accident site and are speed limited to 60kph (37.5mph). 

To be continued...


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## whitenoiz (Sep 18, 2012)

Continued...

One has to ask the question why these curves were left in the revised layout... and therein lies a tale...(political conspiracy time folks...) Large scale introduction of AVE routes demands a lot of Compulsory Purchase Orders to enable the building of long straight routes.

At the time that the route between Ournse and A'Coruna was being planned our beloved PM was the head of the regional Government of Galicia; it has been suggested that all the purchase orders went through, signed off by Government, right up to the time that Santiago came under examination. It would appear that compulsory purchase orders for the Santiago area were refused. A classic example of NIMBY, since the guy responsible for the oversiight of these orders was born and raised in Santiago...No wonder he had tears in his eyes when he visited the site... It should be noted also that the PSOE Minister for Public Works and Transport at the time of the actual BUILD of the route was no lesser person than Jose Blanco; a coincidence perhaps but he lives within shouting distance of Santiago... The conventional original track was lifted and new trackwork installed following the same original routing into Santiago,,, hence the tight curves of the original route remained. 

One of the features of human physiology is that we only notice changes in velecity and direction; we don't notice steady speed 5mph or 500mph it makes little difference; until the velcity or direction changes. Passengers on the first AVE trip from Ourense were physically thrown off balance as the train entered the curve at the end of the long relatively straight stretch prior to Santiago and comments were made at the time and this continues to be a feature of this trip slowing rapidly from 220kph down to 80 and then entering a tight left hand curve.

Concerning ERTMS... This is an active train signalling system with built in automatic train protection used across Europe to help prevent Signals Passed at Danger (SPADS) and overspeeds and other human transgressions.In the UK its use is limited to the HS1 route from St. Pancras to Ashford and the Channel Tunnel. In Spain it is fully installed on all AVE trackwork, but is not fully compatible with conventional trackwork where it predecessor system is in place. The predecessor system is largely passive, requiring driver participation and cooperation. It is this system that is in force on this accident stretch; to the best of my knowledge there is no automatic overpeed protection built in.

Simply put with all the factors taken into consideration this was an accident waiting to happen and like all such accidents it did.... just like the Sapnair Madrid accident in 2008 when all the holes in the Swiss Cheese line up, when all the circumstances are right, ACCIDENTS WILL HAPPEN.

Right now it looks like Driver Error; I just hope and pray that the authorities dont hang him out to dry... the witch-hunt that followed the Spanair accident was deporable, when engineers were held to be reponsible for carrying an perfectly allowable action that made absolutely no difference to the events that subsequently occurred.

If it is shown to be driver error, then there is a serious problem... what criminal action did he take? He clearly didn't set out with the intention of causing an accident, no-one ever does. The BBC have staed that the driver has been charged with Reckless Manslaughter but to my mind even multiple manslaughter doesn't cover it... again it never does in the case of an accident. Again the witch-hunt and the resulting comic tragic Cullen enquiry that followed the Ladbroke Gove train accident speaks volumes. 

Rather than look for a scapegoat what needs a full investigation is the historical circumstances that led to this tragedy. Be it RENFE, ADIF or the Spanish political system... 

In the UK we have a motoring Traffic Offence 'Causing death by Dangerous Driving...' This is the closest approximation that I can think of. And if the guy is found guilty what do you do with him? Sling him in jail and throw away key? He will have these multiple deaths on his conscience until the day he dies, I doubt he could safely walk the streets in Spain ever again so perhaps jail might be safer for him... 99% of the time our human actions lead to situations that we escape from by the skin of our teeth, the other 1% cause sometimes fatal accidents.

Put another way SH*T HAPPENS and there isnt a damn thing we can do about it.


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## whitenoiz (Sep 18, 2012)

Hat. coat and waiting for the flak...


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

Well no flak from me as you raise some interesting points & yes the driver/pilot is always at blame.

How long before these high speed trains become driver-less ?, as to my mind this is the logical route to take given todays technology.


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## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

I don't see why - a good informative article. No one will really know until the driver speaks up (and at the moment he is reported to not be doing so.). I'm afraid my railway knowledge was restricted to track engineering not operating or traction but I gave evidence to Cullen. You might be interested in this ETCS not operable on Santiago crash train | International Railway Journal By the way Network Rail (no longer BR) is currently testing ERTMS on the Hertford National Integration Facility test track.


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

do we know why they changed drivers so close to the destination?


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## whitenoiz (Sep 18, 2012)

tobyo said:


> do we know why they changed drivers so close to the destination?


They were not close to their destination... the dest. was Ferrol which lies about another 150 kms north of Santiago... here's a link to the timings involved had the trip gone according to plan...

Recorrido

Ourense is about half way and a logical place to change drivers...


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

thanks whitenoiz. perhaps just more misinformation out there. I appreciate the update.


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## whitenoiz (Sep 18, 2012)

*Tobyo*... no problem!



Calas felices said:


> By the way Network Rail (no longer BR) is currently testing ERTMS on the Hertford National Integration Facility test track.


My interpretation of that is 'not before time!'

Lets just hope the UK Government Moneymen and shareholders of Network Rail are forced to take a backseat.

Thanks for the link by the way... my background has a strong engineering bias around railways and aviation... Been away for about 90 minutes so I will read the article with interest. 

The big problem I think is two fold... 1) an over-dependency on automated systems which can and 2) frequently does lead to complacency both on the guys at the sharp end and the management of the companies directly involved. 

A standing joke among new tranferees to Airbus products, especially the A320 group of aircraft normally the first step on the promo ladder, is "What the hell is it doing now?" 

In transportation systems, the public want speed, comfort and safety... in an ideal world these would be synonymous... Unfortunately this is not an ideal world and wherever humans are concerned fallibility is also a part of the equation. This applies in all walks of life.


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## whitenoiz (Sep 18, 2012)

> playamonte... & yes the driver/pilot is always at blame.


And regrettably always the first on the scene of the ensuing crash...

Quote from ETCS not operable on Santiago crash train | International Railway Journal



> The S-bend where the train derailed was intended only as a temporary link between the high-speed line and the conventional network and would have been eliminated by the extension of the high-speed line north towards A Coruña, _although these plans have now been deferred_


One can only assume that the reasons for this are financial, a victim of _la crisis_.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

whitenoiz said:


> Hat. coat and waiting for the flak...


No way. That was interesting and informative and even I understood it.


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## whitenoiz (Sep 18, 2012)

Why thank you ma'am...! Appreciated!


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

and so I was reading tonight about this sad story. I read the exchange between the maquinista in front of the judge. I read his comments and others right after the accident and I have to say that I feel so sorry for this man. It appears that at the point where he was to take manual control (the train was on "auto-pilot" for lack of a better word and I'm too tired to go find the word that was used) he was on the phone with someone at Renfe? If this was already in this thread I apologize as I have only skimmed it. So by the time he should have been braking he was on the phone so I do not think he should be blamed for this. Why did that person call him? Such a horrible, horrible tragedy. I feel awful for the victims' families/friends but I now also feel awful for that driver. how will he go on now?

I also find it interesting that so many were so quick to judge. That he was blamed because of a facebook post he made. It was just assumed that he was a dare devil, and maybe he was. but the moment I learned that he was a 30 year veteran of Renfe, something just didn't sit right with me. and so I went investigating....

anyway, I wondered if anyone else had similar thoughts.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

tobyo said:


> and so I was reading tonight about this sad story. I read the exchange between the maquinista in front of the judge. I read his comments and others right after the accident and I have to say that I feel so sorry for this man. It appears that at the point where he was to take manual control (the train was on "auto-pilot" for lack of a better word and I'm too tired to go find the word that was used) he was on the phone with someone at Renfe? If this was already in this thread I apologize as I have only skimmed it. So by the time he should have been braking he was on the phone so I do not think he should be blamed for this. Why did that person call him? Such a horrible, horrible tragedy. I feel awful for the victims' families/friends but I now also feel awful for that driver. how will he go on now?
> 
> I also find it interesting that so many were so quick to judge. That he was blamed because of a facebook post he made. It was just assumed that he was a dare devil, and maybe he was. but the moment I learned that he was a 30 year veteran of Renfe, something just didn't sit right with me. and so I went investigating....
> 
> anyway, I wondered if anyone else had similar thoughts.


In the world of boats and ships the skipper/captain is always responsible. I assume the same with aircraft. I don't know about trains.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

jimenato said:


> In the world of boats and ships the skipper/captain is always responsible. I assume the same with aircraft. I don't know about trains.


As a contradiction, it was the guard who was always in charge of a train, although now that, quite often, they are one-man operated... Likewise it was the conductor on a bus.

However, the driver, the guard and the conductor each has his/her own responsibilities.


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## whitenoiz (Sep 18, 2012)

Sad to say that in Spain, where loss of life is involved, the Judicial enquiry always takes precedence over the Technical enquiry and once the press / media get a hold of a possible suspect, that's it, he's guilty as charged, even though the suspect himself directly or indirectly may be one of the victims. The guy least able to support himself is invariably the guy at the pointy end.
It is becoming clearer by the day that this accident was going to happen sooner or later. The poor design of the track layout is the responsibility of the local government and ADIF the track and infrastructure management company; penny pinching and a general NIMBY attitude, and the lack of physical signs to remind drivers of the severity of the tight curve are all contributing factors. 
The design of the train itself is in question... drivers have questioned the stability of the S730 stock on curves... a non-hybrid variant of the train, type S130 has successfully negotiated a similar 80kph curve at 150kph. The C of G of the diesel generator car is much higher than the rest of the train and therefore the first to roll...
Whether the driver should have answered the phone when he did is purely a matter of conjecture... train controllers do not routinely phone drivers to check on progress. The call could have been an important 'flash' call to advise a problem on the track. It has been suggested that this was not the case and that the call originated from a supervisor actually on the train... if this is the case then he too should be investigated. 
As for the continuing references to the drivers Facebook page, this is just a scurrilous attempt to drop the driver in the deep doo-doo. The picture that is considered to be so damning was posted way back last year and should be discounted since the drivers are required to operate the trains at this speed; that's what high speed travel is all about, and as I said previously by Spains High Speed Train system standard 200kph is really rather slow. Trains on the AVE routes regularly routinely travel at 300 or even 350kph and a new design the 'Oasis' is currently on trial which can run at 380kph... 
The main reason that RENFE et al is so anxious to pin the blame on the driver is that the outcome of the enquiry will directly affect new worldwide contracts currently under negotiation.
Spain needs these orders desperately, in order to tender, the responsibility for the accident must be found to lie outside the remit of RENFE and ADIF and they need a sacrificial lamb to slaughter... 
Seemingly in support of the driver, the judge appointed has recognised that there is far more to this accident than at first appears. The driver has been provisionally charged with 73 counts of reckless manslaughter, but has been released without bail, solely on the condition that he like the subject of someone on probation report weekly. I just hope and pray that the Technical Investigation is allowed to go ahead without interference and will not result in the same whitewash and witch hunt that followed the Spanair Madrid air crash.


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

I'm sure I heard on Spanish TV, while cooking, (so only had one ear listening) that it was the ticket collector who had called him to alert him to the fact that he was going too fast for the approaching bend. Without the call, maybe it would have been even worse.


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## whitenoiz (Sep 18, 2012)

*Madliz...*

Train inquiry judge declines to prosecute conductor who made call before crash | In English | EL PAÍS

The stitch-up goes on...


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

Madliz said:


> I'm sure I heard on Spanish TV, while cooking, (so only had one ear listening) that it was the ticket collector who had called him to alert him to the fact that he was going too fast for the approaching bend. Without the call, maybe it would have been even worse.


and hubby just said he heard they were talking about the driver's schedule??


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

whitenoiz said:


> *Madliz...*
> 
> Train inquiry judge declines to prosecute conductor who made call before crash | In English | EL PAÍS
> 
> The stitch-up goes on...


:sad::sad:


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## windwalker (Dec 21, 2009)

I heard today that the driver had said he was notified three times that the train was going too fast. I find it interesting how differently he is behaving from an American engineer (train driver) in the same situation. Here he would have had an attorney before he opened his mouth the first day, and he would not be admitting to anything. I almost cringed when I heard what he said this time.

Is this normal in Spain? He seems to be incriminating himself instead of letting them prove his guilt.


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

I find it interesting all the different things that are reported. how does one know the truth? I guess it's left to the reader to discern which to believe. very confusing.


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## whitenoiz (Sep 18, 2012)

> *windwalker* I heard today that the driver had said he was notified three times that the train was going too fast


One has to ask where this information came from... when originally taken in for questioning Snr Garzon declined to answer any questions as is his right. He was conditionally released by the Judge handling the enquiry without bail. He still has not been formally charged...

The media are having their usual 'feeding frenzy' and are being drip-fed snippets of information from undisclosed sources, which serve only to drop him in the deep doo-doo and seemingly absolve from responsibilty the operating procedures in place, RENFE and ADIF. It's trial by media at its very worst. It has been my position right from the start that this accident was inevitable sooner or later. Other drivers in the area have requested time and time again that the signalling prior to the curve be modified to include audio and visual indications about the curve and its speed limit. but like the software changes necessary to make ETCS compatible with this stretch of track nothing has been done.

Is it normal in Spain... regrettably the answer is yes, definitely. The Judicial enquiry takes precedence over the Technical Enquiry where any accident involves loss of life. Right from the start this has been a witch-hunt and the circumstances are being completely disregarded in an effort to 'burn the witch...'


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

whitenoiz said:


> One has to ask where this information came from... .'


which was my point too. hard to know who to believe unless you know the source has been proved to give false information (like Fox News).


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