# Does anyone living in Mexico get the feeling some mexican people automatically think



## AlanMexicali

.... you have extra money? Especially when you first chat with them. Or indicate most Americans and Canadians in their perspective countries have extra money to spend on luxurious living?


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## RVGRINGO

The evidence is that you traveled a long way, have a passport and a visa, own a car and paid the deposit to get it here, hired a maid and gardener, eat meat every day, go to restaurants, buy Costco and Sam's Club memberships, etc., etc. Of course you have 'extra money' in the eyes of a lot of people here, many of whom have not strayed far from their birthplace.


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## AlanMexicali

*Good points*



RVGRINGO said:


> The evidence is that you traveled a long way, have a passport and a visa, own a car and paid the deposit to get it here, hired a maid and gardener, eat meat every day, go to restaurants, buy Costco and Sam's Club memberships, etc., etc. Of course you have 'extra money' in the eyes of a lot of people here, many of whom have not strayed far from their birthplace.


That is the cusp of it. Do we like Mexico even more because of this being attributed to us?

My wife disagrees that I buy a Black and Decker small electric lawn mower at Home Depot for only $1,500 pesos and cut our lawn, inside the garden and outside around the house in plain view. One day I almost went to buy it and backed down once in the H.D.


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## Ken Wood

I don't see that here any more than I see it in the states. There always seem to be people who, for whatever reason, assume that certain characteristics mark one as having a larger pile of disposable income. Being an expat to a new country could easily be one of those innocent markers.


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## Grizzy

Yesterday a friend and I went for a manicure/pedicure. Not a big expense but we consider it a luxury outing and do so maybe once a month. The salon had a new nail gel system and when my friend asked the price of a manicure using the new system the manicurist laughed and said "you are rich, you can afford it". 
In her eyes I suppose we are rich. 

In over a year this was the first direct comment I had heard but I do believe that the majority of working Mexicans see expats as rich. I wonder if they think the same when the truly wealthy well dressed nicer car driving Guadalajarans arrive for holidays here and truly throw money around, unlike us pensioners.

I smile at everyone and donate my coins to the man with no legs or the elderly ladies in front of the stores when I have them and try not to look affluent. On my budget that is easy LOL


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## La Osita

Ha, hahaha ROFL, Every single day! And when/if I bother to tell folks that I am as poor as they are, I can see in their eyes that they do not believe me. Even my husband's family is convinced I have some hidden money tree somewhere. I mean for heaven's sake, we painted the outside of the house and I own a laptop! It's all relative.

Short story, lost my job in FL (economy) after 20+ years, then lost my house, etc. etc., ended up with my car (restored camper kombi) and suitcase. Lived in kombi for a year plus while doing field work on an organic farm... left farm, sold kombi, am here in Mexico living off proceeds from kombi and whatever my husband makes working construction. Would like to get a job but my Spanish is just not there yet, so for the time being, I tend the gardens, feed the chickens and live like a 50's housewife... laundry, cleaning, cooking, poor as a church mouse and happy as a lark. (Hmm, guess I am RICH  BUT, because I am an American I have yet to meet anyone who isn't convinced that I must have lots of money and yes, at times they want to 'borrow' from me or believe I can afford to buy them things. And, sometimes I do, because in a very smallish way, I can. 

My observation is that much depends on where/how you live. It may simply be because I live in a village where poverty or at least hand to mouth existence is the norm. I'm the only American living here, maybe ever. With the expansion of cable tv, internet and word of mouth from Mexican family members living in the US, it's no wonder folks here have cause to believe I must have 'extra money'. Their mental image of Americans is somewhat skewed. Maybe if I were to live in Mexico City or maybe even in one of the more prominent expat communities that would not be the case.

The thing is, it's possible that the majority of Americans who do visit here, do have extra money, certainly by Mexican standards (and mine too). For instance, my friend in the US moans about how poor she and her husband are (yes, their investments took a hit) but she's telling me this from her vacation home in the islands after which they'll be spending a week at a resort in the mountains .... etc. etc. Good grief. 

Just remember, it's all relative.


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## AlanMexicali

*Social structure*



Grizzy said:


> Yesterday a friend and I went for a manicure/pedicure. Not a big expense but we consider it a luxury outing and do so maybe once a month. The salon had a new nail gel system and when my friend asked the price of a manicure using the new system the manicurist laughed and said "you are rich, you can afford it".
> In her eyes I suppose we are rich.
> 
> In over a year this was the first direct comment I had heard but I do believe that the majority of working Mexicans see expats as rich. I wonder if they think the same when the truly wealthy well dressed nicer car driving Guadalajarans arrive for holidays here and truly throw money around, unlike us pensioners.
> 
> I smile at everyone and donate my coins to the man with no legs or the elderly ladies in front of the stores when I have them and try not to look affluent. On my budget that is easy LOL


I have had many experiences that would indicate I should be more generous because I am an American. I was getting at the "automatically" do they think we can afford to be more generous than obviously middle class or wealthy Mexicans, who in my experience are generally thrifty towards the general public. There is a thing that being too easy shows a weakness of character, also prevalent to consider.


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## La Osita

Aah, not sure about the 'should be'. I do know that the 'poor' here in the village do not, generally speaking, have warm, fuzzy feelings about wealthy Mexicans. My husband explains that years ago the caste system was far more visible and the wealthy and poor just didn't have contact with eachother. As a child, he said one would never see a wealthy Mexican on a bus with the poor folks. It just wasn't done.

It may just be that 'foreigners' are more approachable and 'easier'. And yes, my husband agrees with your comment about a Mexican attitude relative to 'weakness of character'.


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## AlanMexicali

*Mexican buses*



itnavell said:


> Aah, not sure about the 'should be'. I do know that the 'poor' here in the village do not, generally speaking, have warm, fuzzy feelings about wealthy Mexicans. My husband explains that years ago the caste system was far more visible and the wealthy and poor just didn't have contact with eachother. As a child, he said one would never see a wealthy Mexican on a bus with the poor folks. It just wasn't done.
> 
> It may just be that 'foreigners' are more approachable and 'easier'. And yes, my husband agrees with your comment about a Mexican attitude relative to 'weakness of character'.


I might think wealthy people might be that way, but have a limited exposure to the wealthy so cannot say for sure. It might be resentment aimed toward them and it might be something else. I notice middle class Mexicans are very well indoctrinated into the class structure and have rules of conduct. One thing I do see is that NOB professionals that are upper middle class, for example Dr.s ,lawyers, judges, university professors, etc. are middle class here and not wealthy as you would indicate. They just don't have the high income as NOB.


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## Isla Verde

Living in Mexico City and working part-time for a living, I doubt my Mexican friends and students think I'm better off than they are, and I'm sure that most of them are better off than I am. However, a guy I was dating for awhile was having financial problems, and I was really taken aback one day when he hinted that he wouldn't mind if I gave him some money. I won't go into the details, but this was the beginning of the end to our relationship. When I mentioned what had happened to a couple of Mexican friends, they were really surprised and advised me to stop seeing him, which I did!


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## Grizzy

AlanMexicali said:


> I have had many experiences that would indicate I should be more generous because I am an American. I was getting at the "automatically" do they think we can afford to be more generous than obviously middle class or wealthy Mexicans, who in my experience are generally thrifty towards the general public. There is a thing that being too easy shows a weakness of character, also prevalent to consider.


I missed that nuance the first read. Need more coffee. Yes there is that attitude and I also agree they see it as weakness of character. 

Again a smile and a simple innocent look about you gets you past many such encounters. I find the young men selling fruits and berries to be very aggressive some days and I just smile and look vacant rather than engaging in my usual firm no gracias.


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## Isla Verde

Grizzy;745008
Again a smile and a simple innocent look about you gets you past many such encounters. I find the young men selling fruits and berries to be very aggressive some days and I just smile and look vacant rather than engaging in my usual firm no gracias.[/QUOTE said:


> Sometimes I pretend I don't speak Spanish when I don't want to deal situations like that.


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## kazslo

AlanMexicali said:


> .... you have extra money? Especially when you first chat with them. Or indicate most Americans and Canadians in their perspective countries have extra money to spend on luxurious living?


Around the neighborhood and in stores and such, I usually don't have many experiences that make me think that they have that impression of me (although there have been a couple times).

The real 'slap-in-the-face' experience that I had was when I opened my latest business 3 months ago. For starters, my wife went first to speak to the landlady about renting the place, so that I could get a true rent price. When I went to close the deal a week later, with cash in hand, she tried to raise the rent on me $500 pesos after getting past her awe that I am an American. I almost walked out the door, and she became more reasonable and backed down on the additional $500. She also tried to tell me I'd have to pay certain municipal fees through her and that the electric company gives them a flat rate of $1000/month. I guess she thought that since this was the first time she saw me, it must be my first day in Mexico...

But it gets better - the landlady is the local rumor mill for the pueblo. Shortly after opening, many clients were telling me word for word that they all heard the same thing from her: The ****** is only here and has the business for fun, he has so much money it doesn't even matter to him. Most were convinced after some thought about the risk I take as well as looking at my clothes/vehicle that that's not the case. 

The stories ended up reaching who I call the municipal extortionist, who calls himself an inspector. Rumor has it he was running around talking to others about how he was going to leave with a fat wallet after talking with me. He came one Saturday night, and said I could pay a permission to stay open 8 hours later with the president for $7000, or for _only_ $4000 I could pay him for his word that he wouldn't come by (since he's supposedly the one who enforces such things). Mind you I only open 3 days/week, and my business permit for the year had a cost of ~$2500. I told him I'd rather not pay anyone and just close at the correct time. After back and forth with him telling me it wasn't an option to not have the additional "permit", I showed him the security camera I have outside recording our meeting and he decided to leave. If only he knew the camera wasn't hooked up yet.

But it doesn't stop there...the next weekend the local police commander came by and informed me that police services in the area carry a charge of $100/week for businesses and that I owe him 3 weeks already. I said that would be fine, that I'd remit payment in the morning to the ministro publico in xalapa (this is while I am jotting down his car #) - to which I was told that everything seems to be in order and there would be no need to make any payments. Later I found out the police commander is the landlady's son-in-law...what a coincidence.

Still, 3 months later, I am fending off rumors of my supposed riches. When customers start the talk, I usually can explain how its just not true. As far as the landlady, I have her locked in contracts and have receipts for every peso paid. I've given up trying to convince her otherwise, and now use the 'rich-******' idea against them. I frequently tell her that the next official that comes by to try to extort money will be sorry, that I'll use every peso I have to be sure they get prosecuted (not true). I know she'll spread that statement, and so far its worked, because I haven't had any more problems.

Its kind of amazing to me to have so many people think I've got piles of money laying around. Even when confronted with clear cut evidence that its not true, convincing some is near impossible. To those, as long as it doesn't affect me, I end up just throwing up my hands and letting them think what they want. Just another stereotype that people plop me into that has no truth.


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## Isla Verde

kazslo said:


> Around the neighborhood and in stores and such, I usually don't have many experiences that make me think that they have that impression of me (although there have been a couple times).
> 
> The real 'slap-in-the-face' experience that I had was when I opened my latest business 3 months ago. For starters, my wife went first to speak to the landlady about renting the place, so that I could get a true rent price. When I went to close the deal a week later, with cash in hand, she tried to raise the rent on me $500 pesos after getting past her awe that I am an American. I almost walked out the door, and she became more reasonable and backed down on the additional $500. She also tried to tell me I'd have to pay certain municipal fees through her and that the electric company gives them a flat rate of $1000/month. I guess she thought that since this was the first time she saw me, it must be my first day in Mexico...
> 
> But it gets better - the landlady is the local rumor mill for the pueblo. Shortly after opening, many clients were telling me word for word that they all heard the same thing from her: The ****** is only here and has the business for fun, he has so much money it doesn't even matter to him. Most were convinced after some thought about the risk I take as well as looking at my clothes/vehicle that that's not the case.
> 
> The stories ended up reaching who I call the municipal extortionist, who calls himself an inspector. Rumor has it he was running around talking to others about how he was going to leave with a fat wallet after talking with me. He came one Saturday night, and said I could pay a permission to stay open 8 hours later with the president for $7000, or for _only_ $4000 I could pay him for his word that he wouldn't come by (since he's supposedly the one who enforces such things). Mind you I only open 3 days/week, and my business permit for the year had a cost of ~$2500. I told him I'd rather not pay anyone and just close at the correct time. After back and forth with him telling me it wasn't an option to not have the additional "permit", I showed him the security camera I have outside recording our meeting and he decided to leave. If only he knew the camera wasn't hooked up yet.
> 
> But it doesn't stop there...the next weekend the local police commander came by and informed me that police services in the area carry a charge of $100/week for businesses and that I owe him 3 weeks already. I said that would be fine, that I'd remit payment in the morning to the ministro publico in xalapa (this is while I am jotting down his car #) - to which I was told that everything seems to be in order and there would be no need to make any payments. Later I found out the police commander is the landlady's son-in-law...what a coincidence.
> 
> Still, 3 months later, I am fending off rumors of my supposed riches. When customers start the talk, I usually can explain how its just not true. As far as the landlady, I have her locked in contracts and have receipts for every peso paid. I've given up trying to convince her otherwise, and now use the 'rich-******' idea against them. I frequently tell her that the next official that comes by to try to extort money will be sorry, that I'll use every peso I have to be sure they get prosecuted (not true). I know she'll spread that statement, and so far its worked, because I haven't had any more problems.
> 
> Its kind of amazing to me to have so many people think I've got piles of money laying around. Even when confronted with clear cut evidence that its not true, convincing some is near impossible. To those, as long as it doesn't affect me, I end up just throwing up my hands and letting them think what they want. Just another stereotype that people plop me into that has no truth.


Thanks for taking the time to post that amazing (and depressing) tale of attempted bribery and corruption! As far as stereotypes are concerned, for the average non-thinking person, they're very hard to change since they're based on prejudice and emotion, not on facts. As a single American woman living alone in Mexico, even though I'm no spring chicken, I occasionally am affected by the stereotype of the libertine "gringa".


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## kazslo

Isla Verde said:


> As far as stereotypes are concerned, for the average non-thinking person, they're very hard to change since they're based on prejudice and emotion, not on facts..


That's an excellent way to put it. I guess I had set higher expectations for gov't officials to look past stereotypes and gossip. I somewhat expected that reaction from ordinary off-the-street people, but not from a municipal person and police commander.


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## Isla Verde

kazslo said:


> That's an excellent way to put it. I guess I had set higher expectations for gov't officials to look past stereotypes and gossip. I somewhat expected that reaction from ordinary off-the-street people, but not from a municipal person and police commander.


I guess greed can make anyone behave foolishly, and not only in Mexico. Think, for example, of the recent bribery scandal in Illinois which resulted in a long jail sentence for Rod Blagojevich, the former governor of that state.


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## FHBOY

This is all very, very interesting. [Kaz - what kind of business do you have] - but I am sure we all know that stereo typing is not confined to Mexicans about NOBers. We all do it, even if we deny we do.


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## Isla Verde

FHBOY said:


> This is all very, very interesting. [Kaz - what kind of business do you have] - but I am sure we all know that stereo typing is not confined to Mexicans about NOBers. We all do it, even if we deny we do.


Right, FHBOY. Just of the hateful stereotypes many Americans have of Mexicans.


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## cuylers5746

******* with extra money?*



AlanMexicali said:


> .... you have extra money? Especially when you first chat with them. Or indicate most Americans and Canadians in their perspective countries have extra money to spend on luxurious living?


Hi;

Yea of course they do. If you are the "average ****** or Canuck" you Do have a lot more than the average Mexicano. Thats the reason for the "****** Tax", where by the quote you for most things at a +25% rate above the real price. At times even Taxi Fares. 

Me, I get around most of that by sending my wife in first to a store (who is Dual Nationality). Other times when they try to gouge me, I say no Senior, yo vivo aqui, y solomente pagar pecious de aqui!

Mr. Salyer


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## Isla Verde

cuylers5746 said:


> Hi;
> 
> Yea of course they do. If you are the "average ****** or Canuck" you Do have a lot more than the average Mexicano. Thats the reason for the "****** Tax", where by the quote you for most things at a +25% rate above the real price. At times even Taxi Fares.
> 
> Me, I get around most of that by sending my wife in first to a store (who is Dual Nationality). Other times when they try to gouge me, I say no Senior, yo vivo aqui, y solomente pagar pecious de aqui!
> 
> Mr. Salyer


I keep hearing about the ****** Tax, but I've never run into it in Mexico City. Speaking Spanish well helps, of course, but I still don't see it as a problem here.


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## conklinwh

I think that we all have stories but certainly isn't limited to Mexico. The 1st overseas assignment that I took, I was told that I was a walking dollar sign, that I "had" it and they wanted it.
I think it is a very tough balancing act on how one goes about integrating and that is compounded by the typical American view that we are basically egalitarian and don't really make personal judgements based on a persons perceived wealth. That not at all true here and there is definitely a financial based hierarchy among Mexicans that is not breached.
We have had a number of community events where the seating arrangements became ticklish because of this divide.
Finally, I have always been told that the worst thing that you can do is lend money whether a flat out loan or even an advance on a salary. We are a very small community but there are certainly many examples here where this has caused significant issues.


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## La Osita

The caste system, although not so visible, still exists here as well. My husband is Otomi, his skin is very dark... of course, I'm white as snow, and waaaayyy too often, my husband is assumed to be my "worker" and I his "boss". 

The money thing was/is a hard lesson for my husband. Against my better judgement, he loaned a very considerable amount of money to friends and family when we returned to Tequis. because he felt so blessed to have money for the first time in his life. (His life savings). It's been over a year... the only thing he's received is a whole lot of exuses, not one peso has come back his way, and I am confident that it won't. Very hard lesson.

As is just about anywhere, I've observed an underlying force that motivates many of the "have not's", a feeling of entitlement, of having been ripped off (on some level, maybe true). It appears to me that for too many, desperation in some form or another, compells these individuals to take from ANYONE who has some money, regardless of how they came by their supposed 'wealth'. When 'theft' occurs, it has been my observation and experience when in conversation with Mexicans and especially with law enforcement that the "victim" is looked at as somewhat of a fool who should have known better, and very rarely is a thief actually prosecuted. A bit of a dog eat dog world where it's your responsibility to cover your own ass. Theft, in so many forms, seems so commonplace around here that it seems more or less acceptable. Very weird but true. I've watched women at the tiangues pocketing fruit and veges when the vendors' backs are turned. They buy a little bit and then pocket more.

My husband told me recently that it's not unusual for a construction "contractor" to purchase more materials than necessary to build the wealthy owner's (boss) home, or whatever. The boss has no idea... the contractor then brings the extra materials to his home/land (and even occasionally borrows a few paid workers on the job) and uses those materials to work on his own house. I had asked my husband one day while we were taking a walk why some of the houses in El Sauz seemed so lavish (more or less), two story, rather fancy, etc. when I knew these families had no money to speak of. He laughed, and told me the story. His only comment was that judgement day eventually arrives for us all and so one day they will have to pay their debt. Who knows. 

So, although wealthy Mexicans aren't necessarily known for their generosity, it has been my observation that it is not uncommon for poor Mexicans to simply take what is not being given freely. Interesting social dynamic at work.


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## RVGRINGO

"Prestame........" really doesn't mean 'loan me'.......... If you do it, consider it a gift, for it isn't coming back in most cases. Even with an employee who agrees to 'work it off'; you can expect that they may quit before doing that. 
Of course, there are exceptions and I've experienced those; but only with a trusted employee.


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## RPBHaas

itnavell said:


> The caste system, although not so visible, still exists here as well. My husband is Otomi, his skin is very dark... of course, I'm white as snow, and waaaayyy too often, my husband is assumed to be my "worker" and I his "boss".
> 
> My husband told me recently that it's not unusual for a construction "contractor" to purchase more materials than necessary to build the wealthy owner's (boss) home, or whatever. The boss has no idea... the contractor then brings the extra materials to his home/land (and even occasionally borrows a few paid workers on the job) and uses those materials to work on his own house. I had asked my husband one day while we were taking a walk why some of the houses in El Sauz seemed so lavish (more or less), two story, rather fancy, etc. when I knew these families had no money to speak of. He laughed, and told me the story. His only comment was that judgement day eventually arrives for us all and so one day they will have to pay their debt. Who knows.
> 
> So, although wealthy Mexicans aren't necessarily known for their generosity, it has been my observation that it is not uncommon for poor Mexicans to simply take what is not being given freely. Interesting social dynamic at work.



Itnavell you make a keen observation. I have a theory as to why things occur as you have stated. I believe that the "have nots" in this country have been oppressed and taken advantage of for so long by the wealthy people, they have as part of their culture, "get what you can when you can get it." 

How many of you Expats have been able to grow accustom to the "in line" phenomenom here where everyone crowds the register or attendant wanting to be the first in line?

Drives me crazy. I have accepted that it is part of the "get it while you can culture". This being said, it does not excuse the behavior of stealing. I simply believe my theory somewhat explains the typical behavior.


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## TundraGreen

conklinwh said:


> ... Finally, I have always been told that the worst thing that you can do is lend money whether a flat out loan or even an advance on a salary. We are a very small community but there are certainly many examples here where this has caused significant issues.


That is probably very good advice. I frequently violate it and have not been burned yet. The woman who cleans my house, occasionally maybe once or twice a year, asks for an advance on her pay. She works one day a week for me. She has never asked for more than one day's pay in advance. And she has never asked for a continuance. The following week it is always deducted from her pay. I have made a mental note to myself to not grant any continuances. So far it has not been a problem.


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## TundraGreen

itnavell said:


> ... So, although wealthy Mexicans aren't necessarily known for their generosity, it has been my observation that it is not uncommon for poor Mexicans to simply take what is not being given freely. Interesting social dynamic at work.


I don't know about wealthy Mexicans, but I notice that poor or middle class Mexicans tend to be quite generous at giving money to street people and street performers. People that get on a bus with a guitar seem to get something from about a third of the people. People that get on with a sob story seem to do just about as well.


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## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> I don't know about wealthy Mexicans, but I notice that poor or middle class Mexicans tend to be quite generous at giving money to street people and street performers. People that get on a bus with a guitar seem to get something from about a third of the people. People that get on with a sob story seem to do just about as well.


I've noticed that often those who seem to have less are more apt to give to beggars and musicians on the street.


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## La Osita

Absolutely true. My husband's attitude comes from knowing what hunger and 'suffering' is. He grew up with eight siblings in one room with a tin roof. It tears him up when he sees the old men and women on the street and religiously makes sure he gives as many as he can at least a few pesos each. (I'm a very lucky woman. He's a really good man).

RPB... so I'm not the only one who wigs at the "in-line" phenomenon! I think your theory is dead on correct. I certainly see it at the tiangues, but what really blows me away is when my husband and I do the "Jesus walk" every other Sunday. (When the statue of Jesus is moved from one village to another). After the rosaries are finished at the destination church, the local villagers offer food and beverages... enchiladas, tostadas, mole, etc... I've never seen anything so crazy.... all this praying and singing for hours, then immediately after, all this shoving, elbowing and pushing. I've given up. I eat before we go cuz I'm NOT getting into one of those people piles.  I haven't decided whether it's comical or just very sad.


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## Isla Verde

itnavell said:


> RPB... so I'm not the only one who wigs at the "in-line" phenomenon!


 The "in-line" phenomenon is not just a function of poverty. It's also a general cultural trait. When I first spent some time in Mexico, in the summer of 1966, I was surprised that there were no real lines in the bank, and people just kind of pushed their way to the counter to deal with the tellers. This was in a middle-class neighborhood in Mexico City. When I came back a few years later, I noticed that the bank had instituted the North American custom of standing in line to get to the teller, and it seemed as though its clients had learned the lesson and waited patiently in line to be taken care of. However, nowadays, when I'm in a store (again in a middle-class area of the city), and I'm waiting patiently to be waited on by a clerk, sometimes a pushy lady will try to get taken care of ahead of me, unless I insist that I was next. So the "in-line" phenomenon still exists unless there are clearly-demarcated lines to stand in!


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## maesonna

RPBHaas said:


> How many of you Expats have been able to grow accustom to the "in line" phenomenom here where everyone crowds the register or attendant wanting to be the first in line?


I'm not totally accustomed to it, but that’s a work in progress. I'm not a very observant and intuitive person in general, and it took me a while to realize that a group of people waiting to be served at a counter is not a thrusting sea of “me firsters;” rather it involves a subtle give-and-take negotiation among the people waiting and the attendant. 

It may look selfish and chaotic to us because the signals are very different from those in our culture. To function well, we have to learn to look for different signs from the attendant and the fellow crowd members than what we are used to, and then practice them ourselves so that we won’t be left waiting while others arrive, are served and leave. 

If we haven’t caught on, and try to elbow in using the wrong signals, we will be perceived as “rude,” yet we will not understand why others who pushed in front of us and were served first were “not rude.”


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## AlanMexicali

*Take it if you can.*



itnavell said:


> The caste system, although not so visible, still exists here as well. My husband is Otomi, his skin is very dark... of course, I'm white as snow, and waaaayyy too often, my husband is assumed to be my "worker" and I his "boss".
> 
> The money thing was/is a hard lesson for my husband. Against my better judgement, he loaned a very considerable amount of money to friends and family when we returned to Tequis. because he felt so blessed to have money for the first time in his life. (His life savings). It's been over a year... the only thing he's received is a whole lot of exuses, not one peso has come back his way, and I am confident that it won't. Very hard lesson.
> 
> As is just about anywhere, I've observed an underlying force that motivates many of the "have not's", a feeling of entitlement, of having been ripped off (on some level, maybe true). It appears to me that for too many, desperation in some form or another, compells these individuals to take from ANYONE who has some money, regardless of how they came by their supposed 'wealth'. When 'theft' occurs, it has been my observation and experience when in conversation with Mexicans and especially with law enforcement that the "victim" is looked at as somewhat of a fool who should have known better, and very rarely is a thief actually prosecuted. A bit of a dog eat dog world where it's your responsibility to cover your own ass. Theft, in so many forms, seems so commonplace around here that it seems more or less acceptable. Very weird but true. I've watched women at the tiangues pocketing fruit and veges when the vendors' backs are turned. They buy a little bit and then pocket more.
> 
> My husband told me recently that it's not unusual for a construction "contractor" to purchase more materials than necessary to build the wealthy owner's (boss) home, or whatever. The boss has no idea... the contractor then brings the extra materials to his home/land (and even occasionally borrows a few paid workers on the job) and uses those materials to work on his own house. I had asked my husband one day while we were taking a walk why some of the houses in El Sauz seemed so lavish (more or less), two story, rather fancy, etc. when I knew these families had no money to speak of. He laughed, and told me the story. His only comment was that judgement day eventually arrives for us all and so one day they will have to pay their debt. Who knows.
> 
> So, although wealthy Mexicans aren't necessarily known for their generosity, it has been my observation that it is not uncommon for poor Mexicans to simply take what is not being given freely. Interesting social dynamic at work.


I also after over 30 years have seen many of the things you described here as your insights into Mexican culture.


----------



## TundraGreen

maesonna said:


> I'm not totally accustomed to it, but that’s a work in progress. I'm not a very observant and intuitive person in general, and it took me a while to realize that a group of people waiting to be served at a counter is not a thrusting sea of “me firsters;” rather it involves a subtle give-and-take negotiation among the people waiting and the attendant.
> 
> It may look selfish and chaotic to us because the signals are very different from those in our culture. To function well, we have to learn to look for different signs from the attendant and the fellow crowd members than what we are used to, and then practice them ourselves so that we won’t be left waiting while others arrive, are served and leave.
> 
> If we haven’t caught on, and try to elbow in using the wrong signals, we will be perceived as “rude,” yet we will not understand why others who pushed in front of us and were served first were “not rude.”


Interesting. Do you have any suggestions about what to look for?


----------



## AlanMexicali

*First come first served*



TundraGreen said:


> Interesting. Do you have any suggestions about what to look for?


This butting in front of others is well taken care of in different places I have had to wait to be seen by practicing preventive measures. Always at least one or two people try it but usually fail, in my experience because everyone knows it happens.


----------



## Ken Wood

maesonna said:


> I'm not totally accustomed to it, but that’s a work in progress. I'm not a very observant and intuitive person in general, and it took me a while to realize that a group of people waiting to be served at a counter is not a thrusting sea of “me firsters;” rather it involves a subtle give-and-take negotiation among the people waiting and the attendant.


What a well written, eloquent, wise, (I would say profound, but that's a bit thick) bit of wisdom. What you have said makes absolute perfect sense, and you could not have chosen your words any better. I have often thought that the "crush" was in some way more cultural than personal, but was never able to get my arms around it...until now. I won't delude myself into thinking I can pick up and use all the subtleties, but I will brave the crowds now with a new perspective. A personal take on the issue of "me first" has always been that one or two places back in line is really not a big deal, but the fact that someone got the best of us is a difficult swallow.


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## La Osita

maesonna said:


> I'm not totally accustomed to it, but that’s a work in progress. I'm not a very observant and intuitive person in general, and it took me a while to realize that a group of people waiting to be served at a counter is not a thrusting sea of “me firsters;” rather it involves a subtle give-and-take negotiation among the people waiting and the attendant.
> 
> It may look selfish and chaotic to us because the signals are very different from those in our culture. To function well, we have to learn to look for different signs from the attendant and the fellow crowd members than what we are used to, and then practice them ourselves so that we won’t be left waiting while others arrive, are served and leave.
> 
> If we haven’t caught on, and try to elbow in using the wrong signals, we will be perceived as “rude,” yet we will not understand why others who pushed in front of us and were served first were “not rude.”


 I've lost you on this one. I'd like to see this differently but need some help here. It may be that I am "choosing" to see this phenomenon through my personal filter but what exactly is it that you see when you observe _a subtle give-and-take negotiation?_

I have seen some seriously rude behavior, oddly enough, mostly by women who seem to think that they should be served NOW rather than have to wait behind all the other individuals who were there before them. I fail to see any negotiation whatsoever and either one of two things occurs. The attendant takes care of them simply to get them to go away, or the attendant continues to help other customers and ignores their thrust out hand as long as possible. Simply appears to me that folks are in a hurry and want what they want when they want it.

I've watched my husband stand and wait patiently while a half-dozen people have come and gone while he's waiting to be served. Have to admit, it annoys the heck out of me.


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## Isla Verde

itnavell said:


> I've lost you on this one. I'd like to see this differently but need some help here. It may be that I am "choosing" to see this phenomenon through my personal filter but what exactly is it that you see when you observe _a subtle give-and-take negotiation?_
> 
> I have seen some seriously rude behavior, oddly enough, mostly by women who seem to think that they should be served NOW rather than have to wait behind all the other individuals who were there before them. I fail to see any negotiation whatsoever and either one of two things occurs. The attendant takes care of them simply to get them to go away, or the attendant continues to help other customers and ignores their thrust out hand as long as possible. Simply appears to me that folks are in a hurry and want what they want when they want it.
> 
> I've watched my husband stand and wait patiently while a half-dozen people have come and gone while he's waiting to be served. Have to admit, it annoys the heck out of me.


I haven't observed the "subtle give-and-take negotiation" that maesonna mentions either. It's more like the pushiest person gets served first, and usually the women are the pushiest. This is true at a street market or in a Sanborn's pharmacy. What bothers me the most is when clerk is already waiting on a customer and another one comes up to counter and asks a question or wants to be helped, and the clerk stops waiting on the first customer (usually me!) to help the new one. Why??


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## La Osita

Exactly. I would like an answer to that one too. Is it just a twisted version of the "squeaky wheel gets the oil"?


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## Isla Verde

itnavell said:


> Exactly. I would like an answer to that one too. Is it just a twisted version of the "squeaky wheel gets the oil"?


Not exactly twisted, but it certainly seems true to me. I find it interesting that when new rules are put into place, like standing in line at the bank or while waiting for the bus, most Mexicans fall into line and get in line. Maybe they appreciate the lack of pushing and shoving too!


----------



## maesonna

Maybe I'm over-analyzing it, and imagining signals that aren't really there. My observations refer mostly to getting service at a counter when there is no line, such as at a _tiendita_ or a _puesto._ There’s a lot I haven’t figured out yet but one key I finally realized is to start out as soon as you arrive by acknowledging at the very least the person attending—and sometimes the other customers—via a greeting “_[email protected] días/tardes_”. This was something that didn’t come natural to me. A smile, perhaps, or an attempt to catch their eye, but that wasn’t enough, it needs to be a greeting.


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## Isla Verde

maesonna said:


> Maybe I'm over-analyzing it, and imagining signals that aren't really there. My observations refer mostly to getting service at a counter when there is no line, such as at a _tiendita_ or a _puesto._ There’s a lot I haven’t figured out yet but one key I finally realized is to start out as soon as you arrive by acknowledging at the very least the person attending—and sometimes the other customers—via a greeting “_[email protected] días/tardes_”. This was something that didn’t come natural to me. A smile, perhaps, or an attempt to catch their eye, but that wasn’t enough, it needs to be a greeting.


I agree that greeting the person at the counter is a good way to assure getting waited on in a reasonable amount of time. That or being a friend or relative . . .


----------



## maesonna

I forgot to mention… the hardest part for me is to give the greeting even if you’re interrupting the transaction the counter person is having with the current customer. To me it seemed rude—that I ought to wait for a pause in their conversation or for their transaction to finish— but I gradually learned that if I did so I would be the rude one for arriving at the counter and not giving an immediate greeting.


----------



## AlanMexicali

*Farmacias*



Isla Verde said:


> I haven't observed the "subtle give-and-take negotiation" that maesonna mentions either. It's more like the pushiest person gets served first, and usually the women are the pushiest. This is true at a street market or in a Sanborn's pharmacy. What bothers me the most is when clerk is already waiting on a customer and another one comes up to counter and asks a question or wants to be helped, and the clerk stops waiting on the first customer (usually me!) to help the new one. Why??


I know, at least, in TJ the Farmacias train the attendants who pass an exam and when licensed for awhile get a commission on the dollar amount of gross sales plus perks on certain items. The more they sell the more they get. May apply to only private owner Farmacias, not big box stores. My friend works for a guy who owns 18 in TJ, all with different names. That could be a reason they do act the way they do to repeat customers who might buy more that you monthly etc. or just want both of you to buy from them.


----------



## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> I know, at least, in TJ the Farmacias train the attendants who pass an exam and when licensed for awhile get a commission on the dollar amount of gross sales plus perks on certain items. The more they sell the more they get. May apply to only private owner Farmacias, not big box stores. My friend works for a guy who owns 18 in TJ, all with different names. That could be a reason they do act the way they do to repeat customers who might buy more that you monthly etc. or just want both of you to buy from them.


What it does for me is to make me never want to go back there again! But I have noticed this kind of behavior on the part of the clerks at Sanborn's and at the Farmacias del Ahorro too.


----------



## Trailrunner

Isla Verde said:


> What bothers me the most is when clerk is already waiting on a customer and another one comes up to counter and asks a question or wants to be helped, and the clerk stops waiting on the first customer (usually me!) to help the new one. Why??


Wait! Does this happen to men too? If a female clerk is waiting on a guy, and another guy barges in to be waited on, does she wait on the new guy?

My theory is/was they only do it to women. Tell me I'm wrong.


----------



## AlanMexicali

*Butting in line.*



Trailrunner said:


> Wait! Does this happen to men too? If a female clerk is waiting on a guy, and another guy barges in to be waited on, does she wait on the new guy?
> 
> My theory is/was they only do it to women. Tell me I'm wrong.


From my observation only women seem to be guilty of doing this on a regular basis. It appears to be a gender thing and not really a problem when precautions are taken. In many clinics at consultorios and labratorios where I have been the common way to combat this is to first announce you are there to the person at the desk even if it is inside a door which most specialist Dr.s consultorios have the person controlling the appointments not in the hallway I have been at with myself and others. Next make sure they note it on the list they have and show up early as it is first come first served. If you are late you are at the end of the list of those waiting already automatically regardless of what time your appointment was. Next go to the waiting area and ask: "Who is the last person to arrive here to see Dr. so and so? How many people are waiting to see Dr. so and so?" Then when the last person to arrive leaves through the door you immediately get up and walk through the door and if a person beats you to the door, politely say I am next, excuse me. They will have to let you in even if they complain their appointment was 1 or more hours ago. You say mine was 2 hours ago, even if it wasn't etc.

At regular Dr.s appointments in the socialized medicine clinics the DR. first arrives and has the list of appointments and reads it out in the waiting area. If a person is not there the person is not automatically seen when arriving. It appears all appointments are in groups as they all seem to have either a 8AM appointment or 10 AM or 2Pm or 5PM etc. where a precise time is not given at these clinics. People who know their turn get up and knock on the consultorio door when the person before them closes the door behind them. If a buttiner knocks and goes in they are back out in a minute and the person waiting in line goes in. The stack of files on the Dr.'s desk has this order that the Dr. calls out the list for that time period.


----------



## PieGrande

We ARE rich compared to our neighbors in our poor village. But, we work hard to not look like it. Yes, we have a nice house, but the manner we live, it is easy for them to believe we had money but put it all in our house, just as illegals often do when they come home.

We do things like tell them we have to be careful about our 2002 Sienna, because if we wreck it we won't have money to buy another car.

Also, we wear ordinary clothes. I wear J.C. Penney work jeans, with the hammer loops, including to weddings and funerals, just as many locals do.

We do work on our house sporadically, and tell them we have to wait until we get more money.

We have loaned money, since most neighbors are distant kin-folk, but as soon as some stopped re-paying us, we told them our extra money is gone, and we have no more to loan since people have not paid us.

I do work on the property, I mean manual labor, and here people with money seldom do that.


----------



## TundraGreen

PieGrande said:


> We ARE rich compared to our neighbors in our poor village. But, we work hard to not look like it. Yes, we have a nice house, but the manner we live, it is easy for them to believe we had money but put it all in our house, just as illegals often do when they come home.
> 
> We do things like tell them we have to be careful about our 2002 Sienna, because if we wreck it we won't have money to buy another car.
> 
> Also, we wear ordinary clothes. I wear J.C. Penney work jeans, with the hammer loops, including to weddings and funerals, just as many locals do.
> 
> We do work on our house sporadically, and tell them we have to wait until we get more money.
> 
> We have loaned money, since most neighbors are distant kin-folk, but as soon as some stopped re-paying us, we told them our extra money is gone, and we have no more to loan since people have not paid us.
> 
> I do work on the property, I mean manual labor, and here people with money seldom do that.


I have no idea what my neighbors think my income status is. I live a poorer (in terms of possessions) life than either of my two closest neighbors. The family across the street has two SUVs, I have no vehicle of any kind. Their house is also fixed up nicely while mine is a work in progress. On the other hand I live alone in a fairly large house. Neighbors occasionally ask me if I rent rooms, or how much I charge for rooms. I have lots of friends/acquaintances stay here for a few days at a time, apparently giving the impression that I rent rooms. I also do a lot of the work on the house. I am on friendly terms with the neighborhood hardware, electrical and plumbing tiendas.

Nevertheless, I suspect that many Mexicans assume that all Estadounidenses have money. Just as many people north of the border assume that all Mexicans are poor. Neither is 100% accurate although statistically there is some basis for the assumptions.


----------



## PieGrande

maesonna said:


> I forgot to mention… the hardest part for me is to give the greeting even if you’re interrupting the transaction the counter person is having with the current customer. To me it seemed rude—that I ought to wait for a pause in their conversation or for their transaction to finish— but I gradually learned that if I did so I would be the rude one for arriving at the counter and not giving an immediate greeting.


I did not know that. I need to ask my best friend if that is true here as well, since there are regional differences. Another cultural difference? Obviously, we from the US assume we must wait quietly for our turn.


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## mickisue1

PieGrande said:


> I did not know that. I need to ask my best friend if that is true here as well, since there are regional differences. Another cultural difference? Obviously, we from the US assume we must wait quietly for our turn.


Other cultures have the tradition of shoving for a place, as well.

I was at a big training, where there was a large contingent of people in our company from Japan. The moment the doors opened, no matter where in the crowd they were standing, they plowed through to get seats. Some of my companions complained bitterly about the rudeness.

But really, if that's what you are accustomed to, and no one tells you, "That's not acceptable in the US," how would you know?

One of the things that annoyed my son to no end, when he lived in Korea, was one particular tradition. In the very large city (2 million in the city limits) where he lived, the tradition of respect for the elderly was strong. 

But it was translated oddly. To the people there, it meant that old ladies could always, even if there was a very long line of people who were ahead of them, just walk up to the front, shove aside whoever was being helped, and get served, NOW.

When I commented that maybe that would be good for me, he told me that it only works if you are Korean. 

Sigh.


----------



## Detailman

mickisue1 said:


> Other cultures have the tradition of shoving for a place, as well.
> 
> I was at a big training, where there was a large contingent of people in our company from Japan. The moment the doors opened, no matter where in the crowd they were standing, they plowed through to get seats. Some of my companions complained bitterly about the rudeness.


I am surprised. That is not their culture. Even after the tsunami, with shortages of every kind, it has been often noted that the Japanese wait patiently in lines with no shoving, cutting in or complaining. The same when they were being served in the stores for items limited in supply.

Were the Japanese that you spoke about part of us culture? Although that in itself, in my mind, would not seem to explain the behaviour.

On the west coast of BC there are numerous Japanese. Just check out how many sushi places there are in the Vancouver area. Some blocks have two or three. All of the Japanese that I have known, and I have a number as close friends, would never act like that.


----------



## mickisue1

Detailman said:


> I am surprised. That is not their culture. Even after the tsunami, with shortages of every kind, it has been often noted that the Japanese wait patiently in lines with no shoving, cutting in or complaining. The same when they were being served in the stores for items limited in supply.
> 
> Were the Japanese that you spoke about part of us culture? Although that in itself, in my mind, would not seem to explain the behaviour.
> 
> On the west coast of BC there are numerous Japanese. Just check out how many sushi places there are in the Vancouver area. Some blocks have two or three. All of the Japanese that I have known, and I have a number as close friends, would never act like that.


I got the impression that it was not unusual at train stations, or other places where the expectation was that you would get in quickly.

It's also possible that it's the culture in Asia within our company. The trainers at large trainings, such as we had, have bodyguards, because so many people want to get autographs, get their pictures taken, etc. And if you are speaking in front of several thousand people, that can get dangerous.

They were definitely from Japan, however. One of the people training at that weekend had spent several years, introducing the business to Japan, and nearly all of them were in his organization.


----------



## Detailman

mickisue1 said:


> I got the impression that it was not unusual at train stations, or other places where the expectation was that you would get in quickly.
> 
> It's also possible that it's the culture in Asia within our company. The trainers at large trainings, such as we had, have bodyguards, because so many people want to get autographs, get their pictures taken, etc. And if you are speaking in front of several thousand people, that can get dangerous.
> 
> They were definitely from Japan, however. One of the people training at that weekend had spent several years, introducing the business to Japan, and nearly all of them were in his organization.


I think you have more experience in this than I do so you are probably right in your assumptions. My only experience on the west coast would be in a more subdued setting and what I witnessed on TV and read, after the tsunami, was in "lineups" - not situations like trains or conventions. I think you make some very astute points. That is the benefit of this forum. We all learn. Thanks.


----------



## Retired-Veteran

Well right off the bat if I am correct the criteria for an Expat to live in Mexico is to show the earnings of "at least" 5 times the national average or equal to $1,650.00 a month (I could be wrong on the amount) but you get my drift. 

So if the Americans or Canadians make that amount would that not be considered rich in some eyes? I can remember when I joined the Army I made under $200 a month and I thought people that earned $2,000 a month was rich.


----------



## makaloco

PieGrande said:


> We ARE rich compared to our neighbors in our poor village. But, we work hard to not look like it. Yes, we have a nice house, but the manner we live, it is easy for them to believe we had money but put it all in our house, just as illegals often do when they come home.
> 
> We do things like tell them we have to be careful about our 2002 Sienna, because if we wreck it we won't have money to buy another car.
> 
> Also, we wear ordinary clothes. I wear J.C. Penney work jeans, with the hammer loops, including to weddings and funerals, just as many locals do.
> 
> We do work on our house sporadically, and tell them we have to wait until we get more money.
> 
> We have loaned money, since most neighbors are distant kin-folk, but as soon as some stopped re-paying us, we told them our extra money is gone, and we have no more to loan since people have not paid us.
> 
> I do work on the property, I mean manual labor, and here people with money seldom do that.


I do most of these things, too, but sometimes I suspect my neighbors just think I'm "eccentric".


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## jasavak

*10 times the income*



Retired-Veteran said:


> Well right off the bat if I am correct the criteria for an Expat to live in Mexico is to show the earnings of "at least" 5 times the national average or equal to $1,650.00 a month (I could be wrong on the amount) but you get my drift.
> 
> So if the Americans or Canadians make that amount would that not be considered rich in some eyes? I can remember when I joined the Army I made under $200 a month and I thought people that earned $2,000 a month was rich.



That's the first thing that came to my head as well . However , my numbers were $80 a week in Mexico and $800 a week in the U.S and Canada .


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## jasavak

*Rude Women*



Detailman said:


> I think you have more experience in this than I do so you are probably right in your assumptions. My only experience on the west coast would be in a more subdued setting and what I witnessed on TV and read, after the tsunami, was in "lineups" - not situations like trains or conventions. I think you make some very astute points. That is the benefit of this forum. We all learn. Thanks.



I also noticed that the women seem to be very pushy and impatient . Also , connections play a big part . 
If a friend or relative works the bank or store , that entitles that person to special privileges such as no lines , no paperwork , no questions . 


Last month I was on a ship with mostly Germans and Italians , a few Spanish French , Canadians and Americans . The French women would cut in front and even push me to the side so they could save a few minutes at my expense .


----------



## dongringo

Tundra - Pie and others 
O boy - how many chameleons does it take to change a light bulb. The minimum wage in Mexico is a little more than a pack of cigarettes. Most people in Mexico live on less than twice the minimum wage, app. 110 pesos per day depending on location. Many live on a lot more, and some would put your last neighbor to shame. Why pretend you earn less than your neighbors? They are not stupid. That is why they will charge you extra, because they "know" you can afford it. They do the same thing with their supposedly rich Mexican neighbors, who also fight like hell to pay the going price or less. Get used to it!


----------



## jasavak

dongringo said:


> Tundra - Pie and others
> O boy - how many chameleons does it take to change a light bulb. The minimum wage in Mexico is a little more than a pack of cigarettes. Most people in Mexico live on less than twice the minimum wage, app. 110 pesos per day depending on location. Many live on a lot more, and some would put your last neighbor to shame. Why pretend you earn less than your neighbors? They are not stupid. That is why they will charge you extra, because they "know" you can afford it. They do the same thing with their supposedly rich Mexican neighbors, who also fight like hell to pay the going price or less. Get used to it!



I am also puzzled by some of the comments . Mexicans knows that people north of the border are paid in dollars and even the farm workers can earn more than $100 per day . 
The expats who "only" spend $1,000 a month haven't figured out that they spend more than two average Mexican salaries and most spend 3 times the average rent .


----------



## Retired-Veteran

jasavak said:


> That's the first thing that came to my head as well . However , my numbers were $80 a week in Mexico and $800 a week in the U.S and Canada .


I was talking with my brother and he made a good point, In America the Approximate medium income is around $57,000.00 so 5 times $57,000.00 = $285,000.00 a year. That's $782.96 a day! 

Boy if I made $285,000.00 a year I would call myself rich. 

LOL I guess it's all relative to where yah live.


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## La Osita

makaloco said:


> I do most of these things, too, but sometimes I suspect my neighbors just think I'm "eccentric".


That's pretty funny and so true. My woman next door just shakes here head at me when I'm outside working. I'm doing the same sorts of things I did in the US but my neighbors think it so odd/strange that I would be painting the house and swinging a hammer. I grew up doing it and see no reason to change things now.


----------



## RVGRINGO

itnavell said:


> That's pretty funny and so true. My woman next door just shakes here head at me when I'm outside working. I'm doing the same sorts of things I did in the US but my neighbors think it so odd/strange that I would be painting the house and swinging a hammer. I grew up doing it and see no reason to change things now.


There is the very real possibility that the woman knows someone who would really like to have the job and earn his 'beans and tacos' working for you. The DIY concept isn't that strong here, in Mexico.


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## La Osita

RVGRINGO said:


> There is the very real possibility that the woman knows someone who would really like to have the job and earn his 'beans and tacos' working for you. The DIY concept isn't that strong here, in Mexico.


True. My husband is the someone she contacts when she hears of jobs, and on occasion I end up working as his helper.  My husband leaves me with the household repairs/etc. when he's working elsewhere. We really can't afford to hire someone. Maybe someday.


----------



## Retired-Veteran

RVGRINGO said:


> There is the very real possibility that the woman knows someone who would really like to have the job and earn his 'beans and tacos' working for you. The DIY concept isn't that strong here, in Mexico.


Really?  

I'm very happy I had the chance to read this before I moved down. I have had a girlfriend (or two) in the past get very upset with me because I have never ending projects around the house. It's really probably a habit by now and how I find myself worth in life. (not saying that's a good thing). I always try to do for myself before asking for help or even hiring help.

I'm sure when I get down there I'll be able to afford to hire help when needed and I'll be sure to remember what you said RVGringo.

How is it looked at if a ****** gets on his hands and knees and helps work along side of the hired help?

I that a big social foopha?


----------



## La Osita

I doubt it would be a faux pas although it would certainly not be the norm... guess it would depend on where you live and your relationship with the "help". When my husband (he's Mexican) and I were building a small store last year, we worked right alongside the hired crew. No problems. I'd say it just depends. (It also keeps the work crew honest.)

I like foopha!


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## RVGRINGO

I, too, have always 'done for myself', even building a couple of homes with my own, and my wife's hands. Now, in Mexico, I'm too old for that, but I've designed serious renovations and the contractor likes my ideas, as well as the fact that I can recognize the quality of work that his men accomplish, and he has even fired one or two who weren't up to par. We're good friends with mutual respect.
As for the 'social faux pas', yes to a degree. You might lose your status as 'el patron'. What you really want to avoid is trying to change their methods; which can cause resentment or even hurt feelings. Your method may require tools or materials that the worker simply can't provide; or, speeding up the job by greater efficiency just isn't in his economic interest. Truthfully, all of your dealings should be with the contractor or 'maestro' on the job; definitely not with individual workers. It is a different world.
I've found that letting the skilled worker know that 'he's the expert', goes a long way toward getting a quality job. Then, I get out of the way. The workers know that I'll invite them back if I like the results. Of course, that's just for small jobs, where a contractor is not involved.


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## AlanMexicali

*Lawn Mower*



RVGRINGO said:


> There is the very real possibility that the woman knows someone who would really like to have the job and earn his 'beans and tacos' working for you. The DIY concept isn't that strong here, in Mexico.


I now presume my notion about buying us an electric lawnmower, my wife disagrees with me buying and using has been explained to my satisfaction. Maybe I will have to rent a membership in the health club at $1500.00 pesos per month to get the exercise I desire. The lawnmower costs only $1500 pesos. UFF!


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## RVGRINGO

Our gardener comes a couple of times a week to 'maintain' the yard. He brings his own electric mower and uses our long extension cords. He used to use my 'weed eater' but got tired of having his uncle fix it. Now, he uses his own and his own gasoline. Lately, he's come with a leaf blower. All for the same $200 pesos per week for the last several years. If my wife is here, he gets cookies and a coke. At Christmas, I give him a bottle and a $500 peso 'aquinaldo'. He is reliable, has a nice family and I like him. He's no artist, but our 'jungle' doesn't need an artist, and he does whatever extras we ask; such as re-potting, hanging bananas, trimming and pruning in other interior patios, which aren't visible from the yard.


----------



## La Osita

RVGringo, I stand corrected and thinking about it from your perspective I realize that what you are saying is so true. As an aside, having had the opportunity to work on the construction site here in Mexico and having worked alongside my Dad in the US for so many years, I am fascinated and in awe of how homes are built here, many times without the use of electricity or "modern" tools. It's impressive. The methods I learned and the methods they use so successfully are very different.


----------



## TundraGreen

Retired-Veteran said:


> ... How is it looked at if a ****** gets on his hands and knees and helps work along side of the hired help?
> 
> I that a big social foopha?


I have a plumber that I have used several times. We always work together on jobs. The first time he brought his son as an assistant, then he figured out that we could work together. He has told me, in jest, that he should hire me to work as his assistant. I learn from him, and he learns from me, so we make a good combination.

Speaking about workmen having their own methods and not interfering. I had some albañiles (mason/bricklayer) working for me for a few days last year. They were carrying water in 5 gal buckets to mix plaster and to wet down ceilings. So I put out a plastic hose next to the water faucet. I didn't say anything about it, or suggest that it would be easier. I just left it out there. A few hours later I noticed that they were using it. I have no idea if they decided to add a hose to their equipment for future jobs. I suspect not. It is like mixing concrete/plaster on the ground instead of in a wheelbarrow. It is just the way it is done here.


----------



## PieGrande

*250 times minimum wage*



Retired-Veteran said:


> Well right off the bat if I am correct the criteria for an Expat to live in Mexico is to show the earnings of "at least" 5 times the national average or equal to $1,650.00 a month (I could be wrong on the amount) but you get my drift.
> 
> So if the Americans or Canadians make that amount would that not be considered rich in some eyes? I can remember when I joined the Army I made under $200 a month and I thought people that earned $2,000 a month was rich.


There is an exact formula for minimum income. For what was once called FM-3, I think it's 250 times minimum wage in Mexico City. For FM-2, it's a big higher, but if you own a house, it is lower.

Although before I came here, the Consulate in Chicago had their own minimum, about 50% higher than the Mexican law. Now, of course, you cannot apply except in Mexico, so I suspect it is more standardized.


----------



## PieGrande

dongringo said:


> Tundra - Pie and others
> O boy - how many chameleons does it take to change a light bulb. The minimum wage in Mexico is a little more than a pack of cigarettes. Most people in Mexico live on less than twice the minimum wage, app. 110 pesos per day depending on location. Many live on a lot more, and some would put your last neighbor to shame. Why pretend you earn less than your neighbors? They are not stupid. That is why they will charge you extra, because they "know" you can afford it. They do the same thing with their supposedly rich Mexican neighbors, who also fight like hell to pay the going price or less. Get used to it!


Why should I get used to something, which is no more than your personal opinion? I don't get charged more than my neighbors. My guess is you get charged more because of your attitude, not your income. Mexicans have perfected the pwn, but especially for cynical foreigners.

In my case, we work hard to not look as rich as we are, because in Mexico it is possible to get kidnapped. In November, they put several local people in prison for life, based on their kidnapping activities -- which were not disclosed by the media. I knew about it because my best friend was a law enforcement official (equivalent of medical examiner) for 22 years.

They do know we have more money than they do, but they certainly don't need to know how much more. Just more. And, limited.

Yes, anyone who knows the requirements for residency would know a minimum for our income. I am the only North American in a 750 square mile area, they don't know such things.


----------



## TundraGreen

PieGrande said:


> ... Yes, anyone who knows the requirements for residency would know a minimum for our income. I am the only North American in a 750 square mile area, they don't know such things.


You are correct. Most Mexican's are not even aware that you need a visa to live here. They think of a visa as something issued by the US Consulate for travel to the US. Once, when I was looking for the Migración office to get a visa, I was told by a local to go to the US Consulate.


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## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> You are correct. Most Mexican's are not even aware that you need a visa to live here. They think of a visa as something issued by the US Consulate for travel to the US. Once, when I was looking for the Migración office to get a visa, I was told by a local to go to the US Consulate.


That's funny, sort of. Did this person think that you were looking for a visa to enter your own country? Or maybe he thought you were Canadian!


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## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> That's funny, sort of. Did this person think that you were looking for a visa to enter your own country? Or maybe he thought you were Canadian!


He just "knew" that if I wanted a visa, I needed to go to the US Consulate. That is the only visa he had ever heard of. The distinction between Mexican and US visas had never crossed his path. I live in a big city but there are relatively very few foreigners here. Most people don't have anything to do with the issues addressed by non-Mexicans.


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## PieGrande

*Social Class*



itnavell said:


> That's pretty funny and so true. My woman next door just shakes here head at me when I'm outside working. I'm doing the same sorts of things I did in the US but my neighbors think it so odd/strange that I would be painting the house and swinging a hammer. I grew up doing it and see no reason to change things now.


Social class is strong in Mexico. Middle class people simply do not saw and nail and paint and dig. They also go out in the street only in middle class clothing, which is certainly more than my J.C. Penney work jeans with the hammer loop.

I have spent a lot of time in our house in Mexico City, until I learned to love this little village. I went out with slacks as one wears to the office, and was severely persecuted by various aggressive people of low class on the street. I went back to the house and put on a pair of pants I had used to paint with, and next trip out in the street no one paid attention to me.

So, now I wear the work jeans with the hammer loop. This marks me as a low social class, low income person in the Mexican culture.

And, for a middle class person to do the things you (and I) do does indeed mark you as eccentric. DIY does not exist among middle class people in Mexico.

This also explains why it is hard to find really good tradespeople. Young people of middle class, hard working, ambitious families would no more go into a trade than they would work in a brothel. In the US, a trades person can earn $50,000 to $100,000 so it is not a disgrace for a middle-class kid to go to trade school.

And, for the same reason, people do not wish to pay trade scale to tradespeople. 

I am told things are improving, perhaps because of the work experiences of the illegals in the US. But this is why so often for major projects, such as refineries or electrical generator facilities, tradespeople from the US were historically brought in to do the high quality work.

Most mechanics here are sort of apprentices of older parts changers, except those who were trained by the factories, and they are not large in number.

My friend had an older car, and he was fussing it was overheating. The local mechanic replaced the engine computer two times at great expense. Still overheating. One night he was grousing how he needed another car. I asked a few questions, and told him his radiator was clogged and needed cleaned out. He said, doubtfully, "Are you sure???"

I told him, "Yes, I am sure." I mean, c'mon, a car with well over 100,000 miles, overheats, and no radiator work has ever been done?

He took it to a radiator shop, and the radiator guy ran a rod down through the mess of lime and it didn't overheat any more. He told me, "You are a genius!"

I told him, "Of course I am a genius, but not for that.  That took no more genius than you need to be a genius to know a patient is having a heart attack."

The so-called mechanic could only think to mess around with the engine computer before looking at the radiator. Sigh!


----------



## dongringo

PieGrande said:


> Social class is strong in Mexico. Middle class people simply do not saw and nail and paint and dig. They also go out in the street only in middle class clothing, which is certainly more than my J.C. Penney work jeans with the hammer loop.
> 
> I have spent a lot of time in our house in Mexico City, until I learned to love this little village. I went out with slacks as one wears to the office, and was severely persecuted by various aggressive people of low class on the street. I went back to the house and put on a pair of pants I had used to paint with, and next trip out in the street no one paid attention to me.
> 
> So, now I wear the work jeans with the hammer loop. This marks me as a low social class, low income person in the Mexican culture.
> 
> And, for a middle class person to do the things you (and I) do does indeed mark you as eccentric. DIY does not exist among middle class people in Mexico.
> 
> This also explains why it is hard to find really good tradespeople. Young people of middle class, hard working, ambitious families would no more go into a trade than they would work in a brothel. In the US, a trades person can earn $50,000 to $100,000 so it is not a disgrace for a middle-class kid to go to trade school.
> 
> And, for the same reason, people do not wish to pay trade scale to tradespeople.
> 
> I am told things are improving, perhaps because of the work experiences of the illegals in the US. But this is why so often for major projects, such as refineries or electrical generator facilities, tradespeople from the US were historically brought in to do the high quality work.
> 
> Most mechanics here are sort of apprentices of older parts changers, except those who were trained by the factories, and they are not large in number.
> 
> My friend had an older car, and he was fussing it was overheating. The local mechanic replaced the engine computer two times at great expense. Still overheating. One night he was grousing how he needed another car. I asked a few questions, and told him his radiator was clogged and needed cleaned out. He said, doubtfully, "Are you sure???"
> Sigh!


My own radiator grew 2 horns and I had a heck of a time keeping him off my wife. Fortunately I am a member of the "Angels Club"· Within 4 hours they flew someone in and resolved the issue. So now I only use Crest as my principal toothpaste.


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## makaloco

TundraGreen said:


> You are correct. Most Mexican's are not even aware that you need a visa to live here. They think of a visa as something issued by the US Consulate for travel to the US. Once, when I was looking for the Migración office to get a visa, I was told by a local to go to the US Consulate.


His confusion was probably at least in part because you were already here. To most Mexicans, a "visa" is something you need to get before you can enter a country. But you're right that few know about how such things apply to foreigners. My initial FM2 application required two references. I asked my next-door neighbor to be one, and she hadn't the slightest idea what I was talking about. I had to explain the whole immigration status concept from scratch.


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## Merida Yucatan

I often run into the assumption that expats are all wealthy. Usually it's just a harmless over generalization, but other times it translates into people I don't know wanting me to give them money. I've severed several potential business relationships because of locals who wanted to charge me the highest price in history. I would've probably treated them better than local clients, so it's their loss. I don't think wealthy Mexicans (who are wealthier than I) pay exorbitant prices for average quality, nor do wealthy people north of the border. As so many Mexicans watch US films and TV and have family in the US, I wonder how they can still assume we all have money to burn ? As some one who doesn't, I sometimes find the assumption a bit upsetting. Yes, I have more money than poor Mexicans. I treat them well, but I can't afford to waste money foolishly. Workers and business people who realize this sometimes do well by me.


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## FHBOY

*Money and Class*

No matter where you live, no matter where you go, money does not automatically translate into class. By class I mean the way you behave towards others, the messages you send out. A post a while back referred to attitude as a possible reason for poor interaction among people. You don't have to be in Mexico to see that, just stay in the US and watch the actions and excesses of the noveau riche - there is the ultimate example of "lack of class". Frankly as a businessman who has spent over 50 years catering to individuals, not a corporate officer, I have seen them all. I will give all the respect and courtesy to those who reciprocate and do not use their money to try and get what they want. BTW - in those 50 years, I have actually "fired" customers/clients who had bad attitudes...and this was in the US where the issue of social class is not as prominent as it appears in Mexico.

Treat people the way you want to be treated; don't flash you wealth around as a way to satisfy your ego and people will like you. It what we learned in kindergarten: be nice, play fair.

During WWII, the GI's going to England were given a little foolscap book on how to behave and what they were going to find when they got their. I picked up a copy in London touring the underground command center Churchill and his staff used. If you can find it, read it, it was a very good "bible" for how to act in another place.

End of sermon


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## trpt2345

Merida Yucatan said:


> I often run into the assumption that expats are all wealthy. Usually it's just a harmless over generalization, but other times it translates into people I don't know wanting me to give them money. I've severed several potential business relationships because of locals who wanted to charge me the highest price in history. I would've probably treated them better than local clients, so it's their loss. I don't think wealthy Mexicans (who are wealthier than I) pay exorbitant prices for average quality, nor do wealthy people north of the border. As so many Mexicans watch US films and TV and have family in the US, I wonder how they can still assume we all have money to burn ? As some one who doesn't, I sometimes find the assumption a bit upsetting. Yes, I have more money than poor Mexicans. I treat them well, but I can't afford to waste money foolishly. Workers and business people who realize this sometimes do well by me.


When people ask me for money in what is some kind of obvious scam I just pretend not to speak Spanish.
A major industry here is "a chingar las touristas." It has always been thus and probably forever shall be, count your change. When we came over the border last July the first two Pemex stations we stopped at tried to cheat me out of 100 pesos in change. My standard response: "Soy ****** peru no *******. No me chinges." I got my 100 pesos quickly.


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## TundraGreen

trpt2345 said:


> When people ask me for money in what is some kind of obvious scam I just pretend not to speak Spanish.
> A major industry here is "a chingar las touristas." It has always been thus and probably forever shall be, count your change. When we came over the border last July the first two Pemex stations we stopped at tried to cheat me out of 100 pesos in change. My standard response: "Soy ****** peru no *******. No me chinges." I got my 100 pesos quickly.


Back before I realized that Aurora Bodega was part of Walmart, a cashier there tried to shortchange me by 100 pesos. When I waited for the rest of the change he gave it to me. He had it in his hand where I couldn't see it. That is the only time it has happened to me. In the little stalls where I usually shop they don't see any tourists and it wouldn't occur to them to have two sets of prices. Once in Tlaquepaque, an upscale touristy shopping part of Guadalajara, I was charged a "service charge" on top of the menu price in a restaurant. The service charge amounted to a very generous and non-optional tip. I haven't been back there. It is not a very pleasant part of town anyway unless you like to rub shoulders with tourists and want to pay top dollar for art work.


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## AlanMexicali

Years ago the restaurants that are part of the large motel style hotels on the best blvd. where they and the upscale clubs and restaurants are in Mexicali had 2 different menus. One in Spanish and pesos and one in English in dlrs. and pesos. The price was always about 25 to 30% higher. Lately they have Spanish with small letters in English with the description underneath and in pesos. In TJ I have been to some upscale restaurants and they still have one English and one Spanish menu but the prices are in pesos and the same price. I can't figure that out.


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## Gatita

It has been my experience that there is the gringa price and the locals price. This applies especially to work done on one's house. The fact is the people are very poor. Comparatively I am rich despite having to watch my pesos. I would prefer to give any extra to charities of my choosing rather than being and feeling riped off. When I can't afford to give money, I volunteer my time.


Grizzy said:


> Yesterday a friend and I went for a manicure/pedicure. Not a big expense but we consider it a luxury outing and do so maybe once a month. The salon had a new nail gel system and when my friend asked the price of a manicure using the new system the manicurist laughed and said "you are rich, you can afford it".
> In her eyes I suppose we are rich.
> 
> In over a year this was the first direct comment I had heard but I do believe that the majority of working Mexicans see expats as rich. I wonder if they think the same when the truly wealthy well dressed nicer car driving Guadalajarans arrive for holidays here and truly throw money around, unlike us pensioners.
> 
> I smile at everyone and donate my coins to the man with no legs or the elderly ladies in front of the stores when I have them and try not to look affluent. On my budget that is easy LOL


----------



## Isla Verde

Gatita said:


> It has been my experience that there is the gringa price and the locals price. This applies especially to work done on one's house. The fact is the people are very poor. Comparatively I am rich despite having to watch my pesos. I would prefer to give any extra to charities of my choosing rather than being and feeling riped off. When I can't afford to give money, I volunteer my time.


I haven't experienced the ******-price problem where I live, in Mexico City. Since I don't own my own house, I rent an apartment, I haven't run into that particular problem either, and when I have to call in the local plumber or electrician to do minor repairs, I am charged the same price as any of their other customers. In my neighborhood, I am probably one of the less affluent residents, so obviously our situations are quite different.


----------



## sag42

PieGrande said:


> Why should I get used to something, which is no more than your personal opinion? I don't get charged more than my neighbors. My guess is you get charged more because of your attitude, not your income. Mexicans have perfected the pwn, but especially for cynical foreigners.
> 
> In my case, we work hard to not look as rich as we are, because in Mexico it is possible to get kidnapped. In November, they put several local people in prison for life, based on their kidnapping activities -- which were not disclosed by the media. I knew about it because my best friend was a law enforcement official (equivalent of medical examiner) for 22 years.
> 
> They do know we have more money than they do, but they certainly don't need to know how much more. Just more. And, limited.
> 
> Yes, anyone who knows the requirements for residency would know a minimum for our income. I am the only North American in a 750 square mile area, they don't know such things.


I haven't run into any dual pricing here in central Veracruz. I pay the same as the locals. A lot depends on one's communication skils and experience. I lived in Costa Rica and Panama for 18 yrs. where there is dual pricing for locals and foreigners. I always shopped with both eyes open, watching the prices and change received. I have found Mexico in general, to be much more honest in that respect than most of the latin countries that I have visited. I also believe that it is important to try to keep a low profile here in Mexico. There are kidnappings, many more than we hear about or are aware of. We live in a middle class neighborhood, good neighbors, where everybody has good dogs and look out for each other. Very little personal crime.


----------



## jasavak

sag42 said:


> I haven't run into any dual pricing here in central Veracruz. I pay the same as the locals. A lot depends on one's communication skils and experience. I lived in Costa Rica and Panama for 18 yrs. where there is dual pricing for locals and foreigners. I always shopped with both eyes open, watching the prices and change received. I have found Mexico in general, to be much more honest in that respect than most of the latin countries that I have visited. I also believe that it is important to try to keep a low profile here in Mexico. There are kidnappings, many more than we hear about or are aware of. We live in a middle class neighborhood, good neighbors, where everybody has good dogs and look out for each other. Very little personal crime.



You don't need to be a ****** to run into dual pricing . The hair stylist gouged my wife in her own home town of Leon , GTO a few months ago . The regular price paid by her sisters was 300 pesos for a cut and dye , but my wife was bragging about her recent cruise and other adventures so the fellow charged her 1,000 pesos


----------



## jasavak

AlanMexicali said:


> Years ago the restaurants that are part of the large motel style hotels on the best blvd. where they and the upscale clubs and restaurants are in Mexicali had 2 different menus. One in Spanish and pesos and one in English in dlrs. and pesos. The price was always about 25 to 30% higher. Lately they have Spanish with small letters in English with the description underneath and in pesos. In TJ I have been to some upscale restaurants and they still have one English and one Spanish menu but the prices are in pesos and the same price. I can't figure that out.



I have seen many places that try to grab your dollars at a discount in their favor.

The menu might say 50 pesos or 5 dollars , even though 50 pesos is really only 4 dollars . Now I have developed a habit of asking first instead of paying the 25 % penalty . 

Some places are just the opposite . For some reason , I think I've seen Oxxos post very favorable exchange rates to encourage people to spend their dollars .


----------



## Isla Verde

jasavak said:


> I have seen many places that try to grab your dollars at a discount in their favor.
> 
> The menu might say 50 pesos or 5 dollars , even though 50 pesos is really only 4 dollars . Now I have developed a habit of asking first instead of paying the 25 % penalty .
> 
> Some places are just the opposite . For some reason , I think I've seen Oxxos post very favorable exchange rates to encourage people to spend their dollars .


I've never been anywhere in Mexico City where dual-pricing was in use, as on restaurant menus. Maybe that's because I don't patronize restaurants that are frequented by tourists with dollars to burn.


----------



## mickisue1

The highest prices I ever paid for a meal in MX was at Xel-Ha, near Tulum--and we bought all inclusive tickets.

I've never understood the idea of going to a foreign country, as a visitor, and wanting to eat food you could eat any night at home. Well, I don't understand the idea of going to another city in my own country, and eating at Applebee's.

If I lived in the foreign country, and was homesick for food from my home country, then, of course, I could see it.


----------



## jasavak

Isla Verde said:


> I've never been anywhere in Mexico City where dual-pricing was in use, as on restaurant menus. Maybe that's because I don't patronize restaurants that are frequented by tourists with dollars to burn.



Taco stands don't have menus with prices printed on them .


----------



## Isla Verde

jasavak said:


> Taco stands don't have menus with prices printed on them .


That's true of some of them, but I've never been to one that charged me more than the locals. And I do eat at places nicer than taco stands, which always have printed menus.


----------



## Isla Verde

jasavak said:


> You don't need to be a ****** to run into dual pricing . The hair stylist gouged my wife in her own home town of Leon , GTO a few months ago . The regular price paid by her sisters was 300 pesos for a cut and dye , but my wife was bragging about her recent cruise and other adventures so the fellow charged her 1,000 pesos


That's odd. Most beauty shops post their prices, even the little inexpensive ones. If your wife knew what the regular price was, I hope she didn't pay the $1000!


----------



## jasavak

I think we are referring to border and tourist towns , not chilangolandia


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## Isla Verde

jasavak said:


> I think we are referring to border and tourist towns , not chilangolandia


Then I have yet another reason for living in La Gran Ciudad de México, a place where I am treated as well (or as badly) as the locals!


----------



## jasavak

Isla Verde said:


> That's odd. Most beauty shops post their prices, even the little inexpensive ones. If your wife knew what the regular price was, I hope she didn't pay the $1000!



She didn't ask the price when she sat down . This shop is run by a single gay man who makes his own rules . Her friend owns a shop in California and he does the same thing 

Hizo el trabajo , son mil pesos y que vas hacer ? Hay que pagarlo .


----------



## Isla Verde

jasavak said:


> She didn't ask the price when she sat down . This shop is run by a single gay man who makes his own rules . Her friend owns a shop in California and he does the same thing
> 
> Hizo el trabajo , son mil pesos y que vas hacer ? Hay que pagarlo .


Maybe he thought if she didn't ask how much it would cost, it didn't matter  . What is the same thing her friend in California does?


----------



## jasavak

Isla Verde said:


> Maybe he thought if she didn't ask how much it would cost, it didn't matter  . What is the same thing her friend in California does?



Her friend charges some clients 2 -3 times more than others just like the guy in Leon . His quote is " they can afford to pay more " 



In Mexican restaurants as long you use pesos it usually doesn’t matter. I was in Rosarito last month and I didn’t see any of this. Ahh , now I remember the last time it happened .
It was last year in Puerto Morelos . The young waitress and her family owned a little café and she was trying to accept our dollars at 9 pesos instead of 13.


----------



## jasavak

I always ask first . I was in Honduras in February and asked the barber. The young man said
" 60 Lempiras " . I agreed to pay the $3.14 . 

I remember years ago my wife forgot to ask the taxi driver how much the fare would be . I was trying to explain it to her but got yelled at . Of course they charged her more than double that time too .


----------



## trpt2345

mickisue1 said:


> The highest prices I ever paid for a meal in MX was at Xel-Ha, near Tulum--and we bought all inclusive tickets.
> 
> I've never understood the idea of going to a foreign country, as a visitor, and wanting to eat food you could eat any night at home. Well, I don't understand the idea of going to another city in my own country, and eating at Applebee's.
> 
> If I lived in the foreign country, and was homesick for food from my home country, then, of course, I could see it.



You can't get a real burger in Mexico, just like you can't get decent al pastor in the US. The one thing I miss here is the diversity of ethnic cuisine you can find in the US. I would kill for some decent Chinese or Korean or Thai here, not to mention Greek or Indian.


----------



## mickisue1

trpt2345 said:


> You can't get a real burger in Mexico, just like you can't get decent al pastor in the US. The one thing I miss here is the diversity of ethnic cuisine you can find in the US. I would kill for some decent Chinese or Korean or Thai here, not to mention Greek or Indian.


That's good to know.

Once we're down there, I'll know to stock up on basmati rice and Indian spices and cooking sauces on our trips home.


----------



## johnmex

You can MAKE a real burger....

Oh, and in Guadalajara there are lots of Chinese restaurants run by real Chinese.


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## Isla Verde

johnmex said:


> You can MAKE a real burger....
> 
> Oh, and in Guadalajara there are lots of Chinese restaurants run by real Chinese.


I was thinking the same thing. For those who crave a real burger, they're awfully easy to make at home, and I speak as someone who loves good food but is not much of a cook.

In Mexico City there are lots of inexpensive Chinese buffet restaurants run by Chinese people, but the food is awful. I do miss the inexpensive and delicious Chinese food readily available in Philly and New York, but I've managed to live a happy life here without it.


----------



## jasavak

Isla Verde said:


> I was thinking the same thing. For those who crave a real burger, they're awfully easy to make at home, and I speak as someone who loves good food but is not much of a cook.
> 
> In Mexico City there are lots of inexpensive Chinese buffet restaurants run by Chinese people, but the food is awful. I do miss the inexpensive and delicious Chinese food readily available in Philly and New York, but I've managed to live a happy life here without it.



ditto on the burger idea . Strangely enough I was talking to my daughter 3 minutes ago about the same thing . I said " I can just make the burgers instead of buying them " 

Chinese restaurants are hit and miss in every country and buffets usually mean trouble . I've never seen any good smoked BBQ in Mexico , but heck half of the U.S doesn't have it either . Also , Mexico makes up for it with other things like carnitas , birria , las salsas , better chorizo , fruits and many other things .


----------



## trpt2345

jasavak said:


> ditto on the burger idea . Strangely enough I was talking to my daughter 3 minutes ago about the same thing . I said " I can just make the burgers instead of buying them "
> 
> Chinese restaurants are hit and miss in every country and buffets usually mean trouble . I've never seen any good smoked BBQ in Mexico , but heck half of the U.S doesn't have it either . Also , Mexico makes up for it with other things like carnitas , birria , las salsas , better chorizo , fruits and many other things .


I was just thinking about BBQ too. Sigh.


----------



## johnmex

I do BBQ ribs at home too. Thank god that Weber grills can be bought here.


----------



## trpt2345

johnmex said:


> I do BBQ ribs at home too. Thank god that Weber grills can be bought here.


Unfortunately we're in an apartment and can't do grills. Maybe I can build a smoker in the parking lot. One of my friends from Georgia recently said BBQ is the blues of food.


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## FHBOY

Let's see - you can find the local Mickey D's in Guad if you are really hungry for good ole American fast food, it is decent. Ribs? I found the best in Tony's Bar in Ajijic/San Antonio. Coming to Mexico for Chinese food? Well, haven't tried it there yet, maybe give it a shot, there are at least five or six of them in the Lakeside area. Being from NYC I have had a problem even finding good Chinese in Baltimore and as for Italian, fuggedaboutit!

I look at it this way, yes I want to eat local, at least my brain does, but it will take a while for my digestive system to catch up. Meanwhile, the beef in the markets is superb for BBQ'ing en la casa, and we've had not trouble finding other things to cook.

What I look forward to is fish and seafood, I have to cut back on the red meat and stuff, so I'll be on the lookout for good seafood. Here in Baltimore, we have a good Mexican restaurant that serves a talapia with camarones in a green sauce, and this is here. I can just imagine what I will find there.

Are we letting our stomachs get us off topic - the assumption that all gringos are rich and there for the taking?


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## joelpb

Its funny but I fine that mexican food is better in the USA than here in mexico where
I am. That also goes for Italian and other countries I have been in. Italian ice cream
is the best I have ever had.

I grew up in Ca. and Az. and the Mexican food here is good. It seems that more
spices are used here.


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## mickisue1

joelpb said:


> Its funny but I fine that mexican food is better in the USA than here in mexico where
> I am. That also goes for Italian and other countries I have been in. Italian ice cream
> is the best I have ever had.
> 
> I grew up in Ca. and Az. and the Mexican food here is good. It seems that more
> spices are used here.


"Mexican" food in the US can't be the same as in MX, because nothing is the same: different weather patterns, different soil, different growing practices for everything from the spices to the chickens to the cattle.

That, and there are so many different cooking styles, all across MX, while, for the most part, what is served in Mexican restaurants in the US is a hybrid that appeals to the taste buds of the average American--whoever she is!

Just as key lime pie made in FL is different from key lime pie in TX (TOO sweet!) different foods across any country will be different.

Pizza in Bari, the capital of Puglia, is different from pizza in Vicenza, which is different from pizza in Rome.

It's all good.


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## AlanMexicali

*Southern Calif.*



mickisue1 said:


> "Mexican" food in the US can't be the same as in MX, because nothing is the same: different weather patterns, different soil, different growing practices for everything from the spices to the chickens to the cattle.
> 
> That, and there are so many different cooking styles, all across MX, while, for the most part, what is served in Mexican restaurants in the US is a hybrid that appeals to the taste buds of the average American--whoever she is!
> 
> Just as key lime pie made in FL is different from key lime pie in TX (TOO sweet!) different foods across any country will be different.
> 
> Pizza in Bari, the capital of Puglia, is different from pizza in Vicenza, which is different from pizza in Rome.
> 
> It's all good.


The Mexican food in some places in Southern Calif. tastes exactly the same as some Mexican food in Mexico. I challenge you to know the difference. Mexicans are opening restaurants in every states and I believe that to be the norn everywhere now. I watch the Travel and Food channel restaurant shows with great interest. 

Limes: In Mexicali they grow Key limes because of the desert climate [hot]. In central Mexico they grow sour limes. The limes in Mexicali are sweet and more delicious in my opinion, because I am used to them. This does not seem to interfere with the use of limes in central Mexico or in Mexicali, because they adjust it accordingly to the correct flavor. The only inconvenience when in central Mexico is I have to be careful not to overuse sour limes and prefer oranges or grapefruits in that particular carne asada marinades when there.


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## FHBOY

mickisue1 said:


> "Mexican" food in the US can't be the same as in MX, ...It's all good.


Agree with that...no matter where you go you'll find good food, and if you live to eat, then it is an adventure or if eat to live then...well it is still an adventure. I would think that as you acculturate the food expectation changes. 

Look, I am a NYC prejudice eater, everything I eat I compare to where I was raised. The locals here in Baltimore find nothing wrong with their pizza, their Italian food, their fish, etc, because that is what they were raised with: Baltimore pizza is their standard, it is just not mine. True, they have never had a real danish or a bobka, but that is something else entirely 

I say as much as travel is an adventure; so is food, and if you wan to eat the same food, then like moving to live, stay where you are, but if this move is an adventure, so it everything that goes with it. . Bon apetit!


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## trpt2345

joelpb said:


> Its funny but I fine that mexican food is better in the USA than here in mexico where
> I am. That also goes for Italian and other countries I have been in. Italian ice cream
> is the best I have ever had.
> 
> I grew up in Ca. and Az. and the Mexican food here is good. It seems that more
> spices are used here.


There is terrific Mexican food in Chicago where there are hundreds of thousands of Michoacanos. Of course nothing can be exactly the same, corn fed versus grass fed beef, soil conditions, etc. But the best Mexican restaurants in Chicago would stack up very well against the best in Morelia.


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## Guest

johnmex said:


> I do BBQ ribs at home too. Thank god that Weber grills can be bought here.


and a 12-15 kg bag of mesquite charcoal for 120 pesos.........


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## Hobo

I agree....two years ago, I spent a year in Spain, during a very depressed economic period and also in an extremely impoverished area. 

The locals couldn't believe that I (being British) would choose to live there, fill a pool with water (which I never actually did) drive a car from England to Spain full of tools, computers and appliances; when they themselves could barely afford to eat.....they didn't understand that I worked from my computer, and a telephone, that I didn't have to go to an office, or farm, or factory.

I was constantly asked if I needed any work on my rented villa. Did I need a maid, a cook, a driver ?.....they never understood that I did all these things myself, not just there, but at home (where ever that was) That I myself did these things daily, by myself. 

It wasn't until I held a fiesta for the village, and did all the cooking and preparation myself, that they saw I wasn't a pampered, panty-wasted foreigner, incapable of looking after himself. That I too, shopped for bargains and used cheap ingredients when I could get away with it.

I did break down and hire a few locals, it cost me more then I could really afford, but it was a way into the community. It was not the way I wanted to do it, and it backfired. The locals fought amongst themselves over 'who should work for me'...it was like the days of the Raj....and it became unbearable, a big part of the reason I left.

I had encountered the same problems in Cyprus, twenty five years ago, before it joined the EU....but it wasn't as troublesome. Probably because I lived in a high-rise, and was literally 'elevated' about it all.....In Dubai, the 'wallas' washed my car.... In Thailand, I did hire a cook, because I wanted to learn how.

I'm not yet in Mexico, but I envision that the same difficulties could arise....I think it best that I live in an apartment building, where the communal services are maintained by a company and not up to individual tenants. 

I like to 'spread the wealth'...but sometimes I just want to mow the lawn, like anyone else. I enjoy it, like the smell and need the exercise. I like ironing shirts and cooking too.

I hope I didn't go to far off track.....but one thing I did when I left Spain, was leave all my gear (possessions) to each and every person that I felt, truly befriended me. 

Not for my money, but to the ones that sat around and had siestas and fiesta with me.....when we made our own, wine, olive oil and bread.

I miss them (the people, not the possessions)


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## stilltraveling

Isla Verde said:


> In Mexico City there are lots of inexpensive Chinese buffet restaurants run by Chinese people, but the food is awful. I do miss the inexpensive and delicious Chinese food readily available in Philly and New York, but I've managed to live a happy life here without it.


Don't order from the menu. Ask the lady taking the order about the good stuff. They have real Chinese dishes that they make for their own consumption (and for the many Chinese ex-pats in any city in Mexico). It will take a while given that the people who work in Chinese restaurants generally don't speak much Spanish, but eventually you'll work your way through the "secret menu" and find dishes worth returning to. I have yet to find a Chinese restaurant anywhere in Mexico that doesn't have a secret menu. 

There are also a lot of Chinese "bistros" popping up in the larger cities. They tend to have more elaborate dishes and the prices will still come in under what you'd pay in the States.


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