# Since moving to Spain, has your health improved or deteriorated?



## VinhoVerde (May 2, 2014)

This question was triggered by a comment on the CDS being one of the healthiest places to live. 

Personally, I have found that, since moving from Canada, I have far fewer problems with digestion. I have largely recovered an ability to digest lactose and can tolerate several other foods that I could not previously. 

Perhaps this is because the food is better quality; produce does not get picked green and ripened in warehouses and transported long distances. It is not drenched in pesticides or GMOd. At least here in Portugal, the food actually tastes like something and I have found that I rarely now use condiments. Quite often the fresh stuff comes right out of a garden nearby, the oranges and lemons from the trees, the eggs from the neighbor...

I also find myself more relaxed and socially active, the latter quite unexpectedly. 

Am I imagining this or have others also experienced an improvement in their health or perhaps, I hope not!, the opposite?

It would be interesting to hear your general health experiences since moving to 'Iberia' and how you cope with them. Also apropos other threads, how have you incorporated anticipated health and ageing issues in your plans?

Thanks in advance! VV


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

VinhoVerde said:


> This question was triggered by a comment on the CDS being one of the healthiest places to live.
> 
> Personally, I have found that, since moving from Canada, I have far fewer problems with digestion. I have largely recovered an ability to digest lactose and can tolerate several other foods that I could not previously.
> 
> ...


I imagine that most people will answer positively to this as most people are from the UK which is a lot wetter and damper for one thing and that can aggravate a lot of conditions. Also the greater amount of sun is usually positive as long as you don't cook your body in it.
I can't say I've noticed any difference in my health myself, but I think I'm extraordinarily lucky, and up till now have had "una salud de hierro" as they say (Iron health ). Unfortunately though I think I'm beginning to feel the effects of arthritis in some joints, and that's in Madrid which is pretty dry.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

In the summer it's great, but in the winter it rains a fair amount and we noticed that Spanish houses, in general can be very damp, certainly more so that in the uk and many houses don't have central heating. 

However, food seems to be less processed than in the uk, with easier access to market stall type veggies, fruit etc. And there is more opportunity to exercise - walking, swimming in the summer 
Jo xxx

Sent from my D5803 using Expat Forum


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## davexf (Jan 26, 2009)

Hola 

For osteoporosis - the sun in Spain is good, but as I get older then I expect my health to deteriorate. I can only guess as to whether I am actually healthier. Certainly the tapas I eat I believe are healthier than the food I would be eating in the UK. 

My original retirement plan was to move to the West Country and go to lots of Jazz festivals which would involve drinking lots of alcohol – very unhealthy LOL 

Davexf


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I've been living in Spain for almost 10 years and up until last year I would have said I was definitely healthier since I've lived here. I get very few colds or chest/sinus infections here (which no doubt has something to do with the fact that I'm not working so am less exposed to germs in the workplace, or on crowded public transport whilst commuting) and I have the time and opportunity to do lots more exercise here. I don't feel depressed during winter here as I used to in the UK. I lived in an area of the UK which is notoriously wet and damp (near Manchester) so although it does rain sometimes here in winter, it isn't nearly so wet as the climate there.

However, last year I was diagnosed as having a faulty heart valve so although I still feel very fit and healthy I suppose in reality I'm not! It was already moderate/severe when it was discovered, and doesn't seem to be deteriorating very fast, so it is something I could well have had for many years, even before I moved here, but just didn't know it.

As regards how we incorporated health and ageing issues in our plans, right from the stage when we were first choosing where to live we made sure we would be in a town with everything within walking distance and excellent public transport (I don't drive and if I were to be left alone due to bereavement it would be impossible for me to live anywhere more isolated). The health centre is less than 5 minutes' walk away and the main regional hospital is 15 minutes away by bus, with a bus service every 15 minutes during the day to get there. We will probably have to move from our present house some time in the future as we get older as it is uphill from the town centre and in an area which is not accessible to motor vehicles so we couldn't call a taxi to pick us up at the front door if we developed mobility problems, but we love the house so will put it off as long as possible! We would stay in the same town, however.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

We seem to pick up far more general bugs here than ever, maybe it's an immunity thing and we are not used to Spanish bugs or maybe the water even.
No idea.

I also get hay fever again, something which I didn't miss at all.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I hardly ever get colds or virus infections since I moved here, and the RSI in my wrist has cleared up, but that's probably due to not having to go into an office every day. I've never had any bacterial infections here, and I drink tap water all the time.

I've got a few age-related aches and pains, which would have happened anyway. It's easier to do exercise here because of the good weather.

The main improvement is diet. I can easily follow a healthy Mediterranean diet here, with plentiful fresh fruit and veg and very little of the processed food I lived on before I retired. Pretty much the only thing I eat with a barcode on the packet is my breakfast muesli. I can't say how this diet has affected my health, because I regard it as "preventative medicine". All I know is a feel pretty good on it!

In southern Spain you can get vitamin D from sunshine all year round, whereas in the UK the sun is too low between October and March. You only need about ten minutes' exposure a day.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

A related statistic - life expectancy in Spain is among the highest in the world, so we must be doing something right!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

My arthritis is worse - but that's more then likely due to me getting older!

It's a fallacy that it's better in Spain because it's hotter. As jojo says, it's often very cold - even in 'hot' areas. 

Mine doesn't seem to be affected by the temperature though - it's the damp / humidity which makes me worse. The last few days, even though we've had mid to high 20ºs, my knees have been really swollen & painful - the humidity has been high.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> My arthritis is worse - but that's more then likely due to me getting older!
> 
> It's a fallacy that it's better in Spain because it's hotter. As jojo says, it's often very cold - even in 'hot' areas.
> 
> Mine doesn't seem to be affected by the temperature though - it's the damp / humidity which makes me worse. The last few days, even though we've had mid to high 20ºs, my knees have been really swollen & painful - the humidity has been high.


It's not just the temperature though. There are far more hours of winter sunshine in Spain, and it doesn't get dark in the middle of the afternoon. As anyone who's suffered from SAD will know, this makes a huge difference to your wellbeing. 

Seasonal affective disorder (SAD) - NHS Choices


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> It's not just the temperature though. There are far more hours of winter sunshine in Spain, and it doesn't get dark in the middle of the afternoon. As anyone who's suffered from SAD will know, this makes a huge difference to your wellbeing.
> 
> Seasonal affective disorder (SAD) - NHS Choices


Totally agree - the sunshine, even if it's chilly, certainly makes you feel better generally.

It doesn't do anything for my arthritis though..... I can even tell when humidity is climbing - my joints start swelling!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> Totally agree - the sunshine, even if it's chilly, certainly makes you feel better generally.
> 
> It doesn't do anything for my arthritis though..... I can even tell when humidity is climbing - my joints start swelling!


My husband had already been suffering from joint pain during cold and wet weather in the UK for several years before we moved. He gets pain very rarely here, in spite of the fact that he's now 10 years older.


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## fergie (Oct 4, 2010)

My husband and I had already been suffering from arthritis when we lived in the UK, then we moved to Hong Kong, and still suffered with joint pains, as it is very humid there. Both of us took anti arthritis medications regularly, I was on Arthrotec and husband on Volteran SR regularly.
Since moving to Spain the effect of humidity etc has become less severe, our joints seem to still act as a barometer, but a simple medicine like Ibuprofen helps when needed. Changes in humidity here in Spain still affects our joints, but not half as severe as it was in the Uk, once 'set in' arthritis does not go away, you can only slow the process.
If we visit our folks in the UK the joint pain is more apparent, and we are always glad to get back to Spain to a more stable environment.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

I suspect also that for most there is much less stress here in Spain and that will certainly make a big difference.


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## Simon22 (May 22, 2015)

My arthritis is better but because the temperature doesn't change so much. Also I am happier here so that in itself makes me feel better. Perth, where I lived before was hotter but the daily air pressure varied a lot so I am better off here although it is cooler.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Could be that the weather makes you feel better. Longer daylight in winter etc. Although plenty seem to suffer from colds and coughs in winter.

I find the heat in July and August debilitating, saps my energy. Have read in the news that the heat is a killer for older people particularly in inland Andalucia. I also read something about the Dutch being one of the most healthy nations despite a lot of smokers, could be all the cycling, certainly not their weather.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Isobella said:


> Could be that the weather makes you feel better. Longer daylight in winter etc. Although plenty seem to suffer from colds and coughs in winter.
> 
> I find the heat in July and August debilitating, saps my energy. Have read in the news that the heat is a killer for older people particularly in inland Andalucia. I also read something about the Dutch being one of the most healthy nations despite a lot of smokers, could be all the cycling, certainly not their weather.


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## Anciana (Jul 14, 2014)

During the first winter in Spain my health seemed to have deteriorated completely. I have some circulation problems and am very sensitive to cold. In short, I was miserable freezing all winter, despite a/c being on all the time - all joints hurt - before Spain I had only occasional problems with one knee joint, here both knees, hip, ankle, I felt totally mobility impaired, and I have not prepared for that, choosing a place far from the center, far from grocery store, from services. Started thinking of a mobility scooter, alas, it would not fit into an elevator, the entry to the garage was too steep... total failure to thrive. 
I have lived in the tropics for many years and never had problem with joints, despite humidity in the tropical rain forest. I have lived in humid and cold southern Sweden, and had neither joint nor freezing problem there, but the houses there are built for people to live, not for builders (and bribed politicians) to get rich by peddling practically uninhabitable stuctures as houses. 

Now, when it is warm, I feel better. Don't need a/c even when it is almost 30 C outside. But what on earth will I do in winter?


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## carquinyoli (Jan 5, 2016)

Josep Plà, writer and journalist, said almost 100 years ago: in Northern Europe, I see the cold but I don't feel it. In Southern Europe, I don't see the cold but I feel it. It changed little under the warm Sun, it seems.


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## VinhoVerde (May 2, 2014)

My thanks to all for your replies!

It seems to me that a sense of improved health in Spain might not be imagined after all. Indeed, the sunlight and diet factors seemed substantiated when I tried to look up some scientific evidence for them. Below are some excerpts to support the diet and sunlight health benefits contention along with links for those that wish to learn more. I have also found that I'm less likely to get skin afflictions which I also ascribe to moderate sunlight exposure (UVB sunlight). Regarding diet, I find that I no longer use condiments because the foods taste so good. Carrots for example, taste like something! And perhaps this means that foods generally are richer in micronutrients (see further below).

I found Anciana's experience instructive. Though I know that one can only plan so much, I still like to do due diligence. If things turn out for the worse, at least I know that I have given it careful thought. It is easier to live with that than with all sorts of remorse. Thanks to Lynn R for sharing how they incorporated health and ageing issues in their plans. I'd appreciate hearing from others as well, perhaps older persons who have had a chance by now to see their plans work or fail. Do you have any suggestions for those of us doing our planning? Or would you just say: "Plan, but don't overdo it!"

Finally, related to the health issues again. I get the impression that some autoimmune diseases can be improved with Vitamin D, hence moderate sun exposure. So a few more questions. Has anyone tried to deal with arthritis this way? More generally, have you, since moving to Spain, made an effort to:
(i) get more exercise, 
(ii) eat healthier, and/or
(iii) get more (but moderate) sun exposure?

Thanks again and don't forget the stuff below!
VV

Diet
Low micronutrient intake may accelerate the degenerative diseases of aging through allocation of scarce micronutrients by triage
Ames, B. N. (2006). Low micronutrient intake may accelerate the degenerative diseases of aging through allocation of scarce micronutrients by triage. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 103(47), 17589-17594.

Vitamin D
Sunlight and vitamin D for bone health and prevention of autoimmune diseases, cancers, and cardiovascular disease
http://anaturalhealingcenter.com/documents/Thorne/articles/vitamin_d10-2.pdf
Vitamin D sufficiency is required for optimal 
health. The conditions with strong evidence for a 
protective effect of vitamin D include several bone 
diseases, muscle weakness, more than a dozen 
types of internal cancers, multiple sclerosis, 
and type 1 diabetes mellitus. There is also 
weaker evidence for several other diseases and 
conditions. …. Solar ultraviolet-B (UVB) irradiation is 
the primary source of vitamin D for most people. 
In general, the health benefits accruing from 
moderate UV irradiation, without erythema or 
excess tanning, greatly outweigh the health risks, 
with skin pigmentation (melanin) providing much 
of the protection. 
(Altern Med Rev 2005;10(2):94-111)

Vitamin D for Health: A Global Perspective
There is potentially a great upside to increasing the vitamin D status of children and adults worldwide for improving musculoskeletal health and reducing the risk of chronic illnesses, including some cancers, autoimmune diseases, infectious diseases, type 2 diabetes mellitus, neurocognitive disorders, and mortality.

Vitamin D Supplements May Improve Cardiac Function in Heart Failure Patients - American College of Cardiology


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## morlandg (Jun 8, 2008)

I have lived here in Axarquia for 15 years and my health has certainly deteriorated. I have had a particularly bad year last/this year.
But the question, and as far as I know one which cannot be answered, is what would have happened if I had stayed in the UK? Would I be writing this reply now??
Probably not.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Changes in weather causes changes in Barometric pressure which *may* affect pain levels. I think living a more relaxed lifestyle in the sun acts as a placebo for most folk.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Anciana said:


> During the first winter in Spain my health seemed to have deteriorated completely. I have some circulation problems and am very sensitive to cold. In short, I was miserable freezing all winter, despite a/c being on all the time - all joints hurt - before Spain I had only occasional problems with one knee joint, here both knees, hip, ankle, I felt totally mobility impaired, and I have not prepared for that, choosing a place far from the center, far from grocery store, from services. Started thinking of a mobility scooter, alas, it would not fit into an elevator, the entry to the garage was too steep... total failure to thrive.
> I have lived in the tropics for many years and never had problem with joints, despite humidity in the tropical rain forest. I have lived in humid and cold southern Sweden, and had neither joint nor freezing problem there, but the houses there are built for people to live, not for builders (and bribed politicians) to get rich by peddling practically uninhabitable stuctures as houses.
> 
> Now, when it is warm, I feel better. Don't need a/c even when it is almost 30 C outside. But what on earth will I do in winter?


So sorry to hear that Anciana. I do remember never having felt so cold as I did n my first winter here, it was a complete shock. Are you tied into where you live, or could you find somewhere more convenient and easier to keep warm?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

bob_bob said:


> Changes in weather causes changes in Barometric pressure which *may* affect pain levels. I think living a more relaxed lifestyle in the sun acts as a placebo for most folk.


Yes, maybe when things are good otherwise in your life you are less likely to get dragged down by niggling health issues. 

I also think that when you feel cold, your body tenses up and this can cause pain, especially in the neck and shoulders. I remember microwaving a sockful of dry rice and wearing it round my neck in the evenings, during my first winter here. Now I've got more acclimatised, I don't get that problem or at least it's not as half bad.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Moving to Spain, I think many people can be lulled into a false sense of security when they think that Spain generally enjoys warmer [better] weather. But it comes as a shock to find how cold a house can get in winter when there is no central heating.

Our first winter here was particularly cold, especially as the house was still undergoing its re-form and I got frost-bite for the first time since the winter of 1962/3. We now have more heat in the house and are quite comfortable. 

Our second winter was a wash-out with many roads collapsing down the hillsides during three months of almost continual rain.

I had a Coronary Artery Bypass Graft (CABG) back in 1997 and they are reckoned to last about 15 years without problems so it was no real surprise that I was off to hospital, by ambulance in 2012. It was the graft that had furred up so two stents were fitted.

Health-wise, I feel much better than I did in UK but I put that down, mostly, to less stress; I feel relaxed, I am surrounded by warm, welcoming people. The quality of the food we consume is, on the whole, much better but that is entirely down to the quality and freshness of the raw material and its more realistic price. On the whole, I do tend to eat more fruit here (sometimes too much, e.g. a kilo of cherries at one sitting) but that depends on the season - often there is a glut of stuff that is difficult to store/preserve or once you have stored all you can keep or use in the future there is a stack still waiting to be dealt with and that is even after giving away as much as others will take.

While on the subject of cherries - in just over two weeks (17th-19th) is the annual cherry festival in the village.


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## mono (Jan 22, 2016)

Do any members have recommendations for milder winters and less humid, more dry heat summers, areas/towns?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mono said:


> Do any members have recommendations for milder winters and less humid, more dry heat summers, areas/towns?


Where I live (Sierra de Cádiz) we have mild winters, with a fair bit of rainfall which makes for a beautiful spring. The temperature rarely drops into single figures.

The summer humidity is kept at bay by the Levante, a hot dry wind from the East. We occasionally get moist air off the Atlantic in summer, but it doesn't last long and it brings the temperature down a bit which is not unwelcome.

PS by "mild winters" I mean in comparison with northern Europe and other parts of Spain. As you've probably gathered from the rest of the thread, the cold is felt indoors rather than outside, because the houses aren't insulated. 15ºC in your living room feels very different from 15ºC outside!


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

Talking of cherries, some 30 years ago we spent one of my husband's very welcome sabbaticals in Grenoble in a pleasant house with a great garden and two magnificent cherry trees. Come this time of year the trees were replete as in gutted with cherries and I very kindly invited the neighbours to come and take their pick, and indeed they did. When the owner returned in the June she was incandescent with rage.


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## mono (Jan 22, 2016)

Yes Alcaliana I am talking about as opposed to N. Europe. My sister's house in Pruna is an old village town house so I know it can be warmer outside. But surely in this day and age, folk buying newer houses should have proper insulation and ventilation? No? It is very hard to find any posters who are saying that their newish house is adequate. Are there any ways to do this without it costing an arm and a leg?


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Fitting secondary glazing to single glazed windows could be a big help


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

Health in general has taken it's toll due to ladder and road bicycle falls. I also am having BPH issues which are due to age. An interesting thing was that for 30 years I had a flu shot in the US. I missed it the year before coming here and got hit with la gripe shortly after arrival. I kept getting colds, etc because there are different strains of virus here. My back is trashed and I can only walk 45mis without some significant pain though. Getting older ain't for sissies.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Elyles said:


> Health in general has taken it's toll due to ladder and road bicycle falls. I also am having BPH issues which are due to age. An interesting thing was that for 30 years I had a flu shot in the US. I missed it the year before coming here and got hit with la gripe shortly after arrival. I kept getting colds, etc because there are different strains of virus here. My back is trashed and I can only walk *45mis* without some significant pain though. Getting older ain't for sissies.


is that minutes, miles or metres? back injuries, worn out hips, etc ensure that I can't manage more that 10 minutes and even then at a reasonable pace - no dawdling nor mad dash.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mono said:


> Yes Alcaliana I am talking about as opposed to N. Europe. My sister's house in Pruna is an old village town house so I know it can be warmer outside. But surely in this day and age, folk buying newer houses should have proper insulation and ventilation? No? It is very hard to find any posters who are saying that their newish house is adequate. Are there any ways to do this without it costing an arm and a leg?


Unfortunately some of the newer houses are even worse in this respect than the older ones. I once asked a Spanish architect why the houses weren't insulated and he said it's because when it gets very hot in summer, the heat can't escape through the walls. I can't quite see the logic of this though. Surely the insulation would keep it cooler inside?


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> is that minutes, miles or metres? back injuries, worn out hips, etc ensure that I can't manage more that 10 minutes and even then at a reasonable pace - no dawdling nor mad dash.


 minutes! If miles I would have no complaints. In my 40's I rode a road bicycle about 1100 miles a month. Of course, a lot of that was in a Peloton and we went down on the road many times así que la columna mala ahora.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Unfortunately some of the newer houses are even worse in this respect than the older ones. I once asked a Spanish architect why the houses weren't insulated and he said it's because when it gets very hot in summer, the heat can't escape through the walls. I can't quite see the logic of this though. Surely the insulation would keep it cooler inside?


I suppose it depends on the insulation. 
We had tile floors taken up and resurfaced with cork. Many years later we had a patio door replaced with good double gazing and replaced this sliding patio door with a hinged door (it's supposed to be significantly better), had paper insulation put in instead of the pathetic sheets of polystyrene that were in place, up graded a radiator, and also instead of having one big , but bad radiator put in 2 smaller ones with a different distribution. All of that made a house intended as a summer/ weekend escape house more liveable


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## mono (Jan 22, 2016)

Thank you Bob-Bob


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## VinhoVerde (May 2, 2014)

I am sorry to hear about those of you who have found your health to deteriorate since moving to Spain. Wishing you the best of luck with your health issues. But do you think that moving to Spain was the cause of ill health? Certainly, something such as allergies could have been caused or worsened by a move. For myself, it seems to have gotten better, not worse.

I guess I should have asked if you felt that moving to Spain was the cause of your health improving or deteriorating. As for myself, there is definitively less stress, more opportunity to get out and about in the sunshine and enjoying simple but good 'mediterranean' food. And less exposure to pesticides, hormones, antibiotics, and GMOs (see below also).


https://ecowatch.com/2016/05/29/urine-test-monsanto-glyphosate/
The results from the UCSF urine testing in America showed a much higher frequency and average glyphosate level than those observed in urine samples in the European Union in 2013. The average level in Europe was around 1 PPB with a frequency of detection of 43.9 percent.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

VinhoVerde said:


> I am sorry to hear about those of you who have found your health to deteriorate since moving to Spain. Wishing you the best of luck with your health issues. But do you think that moving to Spain was the cause of ill health? Certainly, something such as allergies could have been caused or worsened by a move. For myself, it seems to have gotten better, not worse.
> 
> I guess I should have asked if you felt that moving to Spain was the cause of your health improving or deteriorating. As for myself, there is definitively less stress, more opportunity to get out and about in the sunshine and enjoying simple but good 'mediterranean' food. And less exposure to pesticides, hormones, antibiotics, and GMOs (see below also).
> 
> ...


For me also, clean air and uncontaminated food is a big deal. As I said before, my diet and lifestyle are about preventing ill-health rather than treating it. I also want to reduce my carbon footprint to a minimum, for the health of the planet.

I know that it's perfectly possible to buy organic/free-range/Fairtrade products in England, where I come from, and to live in a relatively unpolluted location. 

But the difference is that in Spain, this is the most economical way to live, whereas in England the opposite is true. The property prices where I live now are very low, and I mainly eat food produced locally (much of it is given to me by neighbours in exchange for help with their English). In England I would pay a premium to live in a pristine village and buy organic produce from farmers' markets.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Has Spain cleaned up it's act? They used to be notorious for their use of pesticides. A spring near our property in Spain was closed down as the run off from nearby fields contaminated it by pesticides. Similar the Gardeners are always slashing chemicals around.

A recent survey said there is no proof that organic food is any healthier.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Isobella said:


> Has Spain cleaned up it's act? They used to be notorious for their use of pesticides. A spring near our property in Spain was closed down as the run off from nearby fields contaminated it by pesticides. Similar the Gardeners are always slashing chemicals around.
> 
> A recent survey said there is no proof that organic food is any healthier.


I belong to a consumer group which just means that there's a group of people that a farmer delivers to directly. The stuff is reasonably priced and tastes ok.
Personally I don't find a lot of difference in the taste of most of the things.
I buy it mainly because it doesn't travel thousands of miles to get to me and because these farmers don't use pesticides. The use of pesticides is important to me not only because I don't believe that pesticides actually contribute to my health in any way, but also because they damage the flora and fauna greatly both in their manufacture and use.


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> Unfortunately some of the newer houses are even worse in this respect than the older ones. I once asked a Spanish architect why the houses weren't insulated and he said it's because when it gets very hot in summer, the heat can't escape through the walls. I can't quite see the logic of this though. Surely the insulation would keep it cooler inside?


You're right, insulation is there to try to stop the heat from moving from one space to another, so in the winter stops it from moving from the inside to the outside and then in the summer from outside to inside. So a well insulated building is good all year.

The measurement of a building's insulation is called a u value. The lower the figure, the better it is insulated. In this link 

EURIMA - U-values in Europe 

there are some figures for lots of places all over Europe (might not be 100% up to date but good for comparison). You will see Spain is one of the worst. Even so, to achieve those figures, a new building would need to be insulated.

The other thing, in the UK it is now necessary to comply with air tightness requirements, so a building can't just comply on paper but then built shoddily with big gaping holes and drafts, it is pressure tested after it has been built to make sure it has a reasonable level of air tightness. Whilst being cold in winter isn't a problem I've noticed here (everyone we know has central heating) drafty doors and windows is.


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## ccm472 (Jan 6, 2016)

I find it hard to understand the food dilemma i.e. eat local. Aguilas, where we are in Spain, is the centre of a salad and fruit producing area. If I go to the market I can buy 'local' tomatoes and lettuce. If i walk the caminos I can pick lemons, mandarinas etc off the trees once the pickers have been through the orchards and all is 'well'. However if I go to Tesco in the UK, I can see the boxes showing the names of the packers, from Aguilas, and yet then this is considered 'not good'? Am I not supporting the Aguilas community just the same, if not more so (because I actually pay for the fruit)? Surely the product is the same?

To answer the original question: yes my health has improved since leaving the UK, this winter I had one mild dose of bronchitis as opposed to 6 separate weeks in hospital with pneumonia. I did however regard winter time as a period to avoid contact with expats in case they had been mingling with those carrying UK germs.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

I am not doubting everyone who is saying that they have no insulation in their Spanish housing, but I'm surprised. The house we live in now - built 22 years ago - has fiberglass insulation in the walls, as did the apartment we lived in before this house - built 30 years ago. I know this because in both places we had old-fashioned, box type air conditioning units installed that required making big holes all the way through the exterior walls. So we could see what was inside (fiberglass insulation).

Not that our house is fabulously insulated, mind you. I'm sure there are better, more modern insulating material now. But don't just assume that all Spanish housing has no insulation.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Unfortunately some of the newer houses are even worse in this respect than the older ones. I once asked a Spanish architect why the houses weren't insulated and he said it's because when it gets very hot in summer, the heat can't escape through the walls. I can't quite see the logic of this though. Surely the insulation would keep it cooler inside?


That's bizarre and wrong.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Isobella said:


> Has Spain cleaned up it's act? They used to be notorious for their use of pesticides. A spring near our property in Spain was closed down as the run off from nearby fields contaminated it by pesticides. Similar the Gardeners are always slashing chemicals around.
> 
> A recent survey said there is no proof that organic food is any healthier.


There are loads of chemicals used in agribusiness wherever you go; pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, anti-ripening agents etc. We don't know what long-term effects these chemicals have on us consumers, but we do know they harm the environment. That's why I prefer stuff from my friends' huertos, because I know they don't use them. 

The word "organic" is mainly a marketing thing to justify higher prices, I don't take any notice of it.



ccm472 said:


> I find it hard to understand the food dilemma i.e. eat local. Aguilas, where we are in Spain, is the centre of a salad and fruit producing area. If I go to the market I can buy 'local' tomatoes and lettuce. If i walk the caminos I can pick lemons, mandarinas etc off the trees once the pickers have been through the orchards and all is 'well'. However if I go to Tesco in the UK, I can see the boxes showing the names of the packers, from Aguilas, and yet then this is considered 'not good'? Am I not supporting the Aguilas community just the same, if not more so (because I actually pay for the fruit)? Surely the product is the same?


It's about food-miles, the energy used to transport those products to markets overseas. All those lorries and fossil fuels used to transport lettuces from Aguilas to Tescos... Not to mention the chemicals used to stop them going off in the process. Next time you open a bag of mixed salad, take a sniff!


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

I don't know how it's possible to know what anyone uses. Friends in the campo close to Ronda had to sack their gardener after he used some spray which killed off a neighbours goats The gardener had his own plot for growing too.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> There are loads of chemicals used in agribusiness wherever you go; pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, anti-ripening agents etc. We don't know what long-term effects these chemicals have on us consumers,* but we do know they harm the environment. * That's why I prefer stuff from my friends' huertos, because I know they don't use them.


That's a bit of a generalisation is't it? Do ALL chemicals used by agriculture harm the environment?



Alcalaina said:


> The word "organic" is mainly a marketing thing to justify higher prices, I don't take any notice of it.


Absolutely.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Isobella said:


> I don't know how it's possible to know what anyone uses. Friends in the campo close to Ronda had to sack their gardener after he used some spray which killed off a neighbours goats The gardener had his own plot for growing too.


I'm not in any doubt, because the three women I get stuff from are close friends and have the same approach to this sort of thing as I do. 

I also know how lucky I am.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jimenato said:


> That's a bit of a generalisation is't it? Do ALL chemicals used by agriculture harm the environment?


Yes, it's a generalisation. But a valid one IMO. Here's just one example.

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...ce-of-impact-of-pesticide-on-bee-pollination/


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Isobella said:


> I don't know how it's possible to know what anyone uses. Friends in the campo close to Ronda had to sack their gardener after he used some spray which killed off a neighbours goats The gardener had his own plot for growing too.


I fully trust the farmer we trade with. His way of farming is a life choice.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jimenato said:


> That's a bit of a generalisation is't it? Do ALL chemicals used by agriculture harm the environment?
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely.


I suppose not all do harm to us or the environment.
The use of ones that do no harm are permitted in organic farming.
It's just as extreme to reject all chemical farming as it is to reject all things organic. Organic or ecological doesn't = gimmick.
The use of the word _green_ however, or _eco_ for example is another thing.


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## Anciana (Jul 14, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> So sorry to hear that Anciana. I do remember never having felt so cold as I did n my first winter here, it was a complete shock. Are you tied into where you live, or could you find somewhere more convenient and easier to keep warm?


Well, I am renting, so I can and shall move when my contract is up (September/October). I wish I could move back to the warm Caribbean, alas, I need good quality affordable healthcare, and that you don't get anywhere there. 

I do not yet know what type of housing would be easier to keep warm in Spain, yet, and what type of heating to choose. El radiators? Oil radiators? Need to study that during summer instead of spilling tears about missing Puerto Rico or Costa Rica or Mexican Yucatan or Belize... All places where food was fresh (especially in indigenous areas, as they farm without chemical fertilizers) and both air and water pleasantly warm all year round, without excesses one way or the other. :-(


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Anciana said:


> Well, I am renting, so I can and shall move when my contract is up (September/October). I wish I could move back to the warm Caribbean, alas, I need good quality affordable healthcare, and that you don't get anywhere there.
> 
> I do not yet know what type of housing would be easier to keep warm in Spain, yet, and what type of heating to choose. El radiators? Oil radiators? Need to study that during summer instead of spilling tears about missing Puerto Rico or Costa Rica or Mexican Yucatan or Belize... All places where food was fresh (especially in indigenous areas, as they farm without chemical fertilizers) and both air and water pleasantly warm all year round, without excesses one way or the other. :-(


One also has to consider political stability, something that is often absent or dubious at best when one is talking about Latin America, otherwise we would probably be living back in Colombia.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, it's a generalisation. But a valid one IMO. Here's just one example.
> 
> https://www.newscientist.com/articl...ce-of-impact-of-pesticide-on-bee-pollination/


That's just one chemical though and not exactly a conclusive study. It's also a new angle - up until now neonicotinoids are supposed to have been killing bees not affecting their ability to pollinate. 

Anyone you can't simply assume that all chemicals (and there are dozens of different chemicals used in agriculture) are bad based on that.

We're in danger of compromising plentiful food because of unscientific suspicion.

We're a bit off-topic really.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I suppose not all do harm to us or the environment.
> The use of ones that do no harm are permitted in organic farming.
> It's just as extreme to reject all chemical farming as it is to reject all things organic. Organic or ecological doesn't = gimmick.
> The use of the word _green_ however, or _eco_ for example is another thing.


No - I certainly wouldn't reject all things organic. But the often religious nature of belief in 'natural' and 'organic' and rejection of 'artificial' and 'chemical' irks. 

There certainly isn't a consensus that all aspects of organic agriculture are particularly helpful to the environment, nor that fully embracing organic methods can actually feed the world.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I don't know much about 'organic' produce, I grew up eating fruit and veg 99% from my Granddad's gardens and meat and fish from local farms sold in my uncle's fish and butcher shops.
In those days we didn't use the word 'organic', the fashion started years later when middle class people got concerned about the environment -another word I never heard, it was just 'outdoors' or 'the country'.
But I seem to remember reading about something called the 'Green Revolution' which involved the use of genetically modified seeds and which to a great extent helped avoid mass famine in some Asian and African countries as population grew exponientially, thanks to availability of new drugs as well as clean water etc.

As for buying Spanish produce in the UK, in Tesco etc....yes, transporting it pollutes...but presumably local producers earn money and hire workers to meet the increased demand exports bring.
After all, why refuse, if in the UK, to buy Spanish tomatoes if you buy Spanish wine....or wine from any country other than the UK? Or foreign cheese? Or Polish sausage?
After all, the bottles etc. don't walk to the supermarket shelves...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

My health has deteriorated. Not surprising, really, I've aged in the past ten years, a process over which I had no control..  
I suppose it might have deteriorated more rapidly if I'd moved to Penge or Paraguay.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Some of my forebears kicked off at a "good age" others not so.

Maternal side:
Great-grandfather Collis, 51; his wife, 90; one of their sons (my grandfather), 80.
Great-grandfather Turnage, 83; his wife, 44; their daughter (my grandmother), 95. 
Their children: Daughter (my mother), 90; her brother, 73 

Paternal side - not much known
Grandmother, 85; her son (my father), 66

I keep a list and tick them off as I outlive their ages at death. So far I have beaten the 60s and 70s and earlier but the 80s and 90s are going to be tougher nuts to crack. 

With the better weather and food plus lower stress in a warm and friendly environment, here in Spain, I think my chances are quite good.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

jimenato said:


> No - I certainly wouldn't reject all things organic. But the often religious nature of belief in 'natural' and 'organic' and rejection of 'artificial' and 'chemical' irks.
> 
> There certainly isn't a consensus that all aspects of organic agriculture are particularly helpful to the environment, nor that fully embracing organic methods can actually feed the world.


How's this for organic pest control and even the fertiliser is organic
https://www.facebook.com/RonenDesdeAdentro/videos/953533241430572/


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jimenato said:


> We're a bit off-topic really.


What us? On the Spanish forum?? Never! Or do I mean Often?!!



jimenato said:


> No - I certainly wouldn't reject all things organic. But the often religious nature of belief in 'natural' and 'organic' and rejection of 'artificial' and 'chemical' irks.
> 
> There certainly isn't a consensus that all aspects of organic agriculture are particularly helpful to the environment, nor that fully embracing organic methods can actually feed the world.


No there isn't.
By the same token, not all agree that artificial chemicals are the answer to problems in farming and feeding the world.
As usual the answer seems to be to avoid extremism, be open minded, listen, and don't be guided by those who have a financial/ political/ family interest. Unfortunately it seems that in all aspects of life there are a large number of people who do indeed have those interests, and only those interests, in mind.


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## Anciana (Jul 14, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> One also has to consider political stability, something that is often absent or dubious at best when one is talking about Latin America, otherwise we would probably be living back in Colombia.


True, I was referring mostly to the Caribbean, which, with few exception (like Haiti, a definitive outlier) seem politically stable and economically usually better off than Latin America.


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## Anciana (Jul 14, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> Unfortunately some of the newer houses are even worse in this respect than the older ones. I once asked a Spanish architect why the houses weren't insulated and he said it's because when it gets very hot in summer, the heat can't escape through the walls. I can't quite see the logic of this though. Surely the insulation would keep it cooler inside?


The architect is talking nonsense. I have lived in Georgia and Texas, where heat in summer can be opressive, but outdoors. Houses are insulated, and well ventilated with well functioning a/c and indoors are as comfortably cool as you make them (and energy is cheaper than in Spain). I blame most Spanish deficiencies on a horrible corruption.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Anciana said:


> The architect is talking nonsense. I have lived in Georgia and Texas, where heat in summer can be opressive, but outdoors. Houses are insulated, and well ventilated with well functioning a/c and indoors are as comfortably cool as you make them (and energy is cheaper than in Spain). I blame most Spanish deficiencies on a horrible corruption.


:confused2:
I can see that corruption might be involved if builders were deliberately cutting costs by not insulating then misleading buyers by pretending they were. But, where I live at least, nobody_ expects_ houses to be insulated. Our house was built by someone who then lived in it, he was a perfectionist and spared no expense on the woodwork, tiling etc. Yet even he didn't think about insulating it. It remains a mystery!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> :confused2:
> I can see that corruption might be involved if builders were deliberately cutting costs by not insulating then misleading buyers by pretending they were. But, where I live at least, nobody_ expects_ houses to be insulated. Our house was built by someone who then lived in it, he was a perfectionist and spared no expense on the woodwork, tiling etc. Yet even he didn't think about insulating it. It remains a mystery!


Perhaps because in most of Spain, the need is for such short periods, that it wasn't considered cost-effective.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jimenato said:


> That's just one chemical though and not exactly a conclusive study. It's also a new angle - up until now neonicotinoids are supposed to have been killing bees not affecting their ability to pollinate.
> 
> Anyone you can't simply assume that all chemicals (and there are dozens of different chemicals used in agriculture) are bad based on that.
> 
> ...


You know me well enough to know that I'm not one of these all-science-is-bad/all-nature-is-good types.  For example I'm fully in favour of genetic modification of foods to make them more nutritious or productive, provided that this doesn't involve making them resistant to pesticide so they can be blasted with glyphosate to kill off competing weeds.

But there are plenty of examples of environmental pollution, health hazards to humans and animals, soil degradation etc caused by the use/misuse of chemicals and other modern agribusiness techniques. Even in Europe, which is much more strictly regulated than some other parts of the world. Check out the effects of intensive strawberry cultivation on the waters of the Doñana national park in Huelva, for example (though I confess I do eat the strawberries sometimes).
http://www.ecologistasenaccion.org/article18234.html


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> Perhaps because in most of Spain, the need is for such short periods, that it wasn't considered cost-effective.


I don't think so. For at least two-thirds of the year (Dec-March, June-Sept) it would be really useful in maintaining a more stable temperature within the house. Unfortunately it would cost so much to insulate our house how, it would be cheaper to move somewhere else during the less temperate months!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> Perhaps because in most of Spain, the need is for such short periods, that it wasn't considered cost-effective.


Surely though, because insulation (especially roof insulation) works both ways - ie. it keeps a house warm in winter & cool in summer - it would be cost-effective to install it


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> Surely though, because insulation (especially roof insulation) works both ways - ie. it keeps a house warm in winter & cool in summer - it would be cost-effective to install it


Agreed and we have it but when it comes to the walls, that is another matter. You either find some way of putting an insulating layer within the wall or on the outside or inside, all of which are costly and can create problems.


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> I don't think so. For at least two-thirds of the year (Dec-March, June-Sept) it would be really useful in maintaining a more stable temperature within the house. Unfortunately it would cost so much to insulate our house how, it would be cheaper to move somewhere else during the less temperate months!


In the UK, solid wall insulation has a pay-back period between 8 an 15 years. The figures could be different here because you should use the heating less. On the other hand, air conditioning wouldn't be a factor in the UK, so maybe it is swings and roundabouts. Anyway, the pay-back isn't overnight but once it's done it's done, unlike, say, a boiler which has a finite life and needs to be replaced, and the level of comfort all year should improve dramatically.


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## Anciana (Jul 14, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> :confused2:
> I can see that corruption might be involved if builders were deliberately cutting costs by not insulating then misleading buyers by pretending they were. But, where I live at least, nobody_ expects_ houses to be insulated. Our house was built by someone who then lived in it, he was a perfectionist and spared no expense on the woodwork, tiling etc. Yet even he didn't think about insulating it. It remains a mystery!


I think it is a tad more complicated. A corruption in bribing politicians by builders to NOT demand by law that the buildings be habitable by insulating them etc. And lack of consumer pressure demanding better building due to habit - most Spaniards never experienced anything better (btw why, on earth, Spanish kitchens have single sinks: its impractical and not higienic and how much more would a double sink cost?), so they are not pressing for change. But all the Brits and other expats? That combination allows developers to build way below European standard and charge MORE than the poor quality of housing they peddle would make the prices reasonable.

I guess expats are comparing prices in Britain and Northern Europe to prices in Spain, not taking into account that they are comparing quality products -well build, well insulated, well ventilated houses - to the rubbish peddled in Spain as housing.

I never thought I would ever long to - once infamous - Swedish building regulations, that said that a room under 10 m2 is not allowed to be called a bedroom (too small) and that a hat shelf in the entry needs to be no shorter than 60 cm or no bank would be allowed to offer financing on the preferential terms for housing. But I'd rather have one government regulation protecting a consumer too many, than "housing" that contributes to ill health.

In the building that I now rent it is supposed to be a/c por conductos. But "conductos" are not insulated, which makes both heating and cooling utterly inefficient.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> You know me well enough to know that I'm not one of these all-science-is-bad/all-nature-is-good types.  For example I'm fully in favour of genetic modification of foods to make them more nutritious or productive, provided that this doesn't involve making them resistant to pesticide so they can be blasted with glyphosate to kill off competing weeds.
> 
> But there are plenty of examples of environmental pollution, health hazards to humans and animals, soil degradation etc caused by the use/misuse of chemicals and other modern agribusiness techniques. Even in Europe, which is much more strictly regulated than some other parts of the world. Check out the effects of intensive strawberry cultivation on the waters of the Doñana national park in Huelva, for example (though I confess I do eat the strawberries sometimes).
> El cultivo intensivo de fresas | Ecologistas en Acción


Yes, I know you well enough to know that.

Although it turns out there's not a lot wrong with Glyphosate...



> Glyphosate, the key ingredient in Monsanto’s Roundup weedkiller brand, has been given a clean bill of health by the UN’s joint meeting on pesticides residues (JMPR), two days before a crunch EU vote on whether to relicense it.
> 
> The co-analysis by the UN’s Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO) and World Health Organisation found that the chemical was “unlikely to pose a carcinogenic risk to humans from exposure through the diet”.
> 
> This finding flatly contradicts an assessment by the WHO’s cancer agency last year that the herbicide solution was “probably carcinogenic to humans”.


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## Oz to Spain (Aug 16, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> Unfortunately some of the newer houses are even worse in this respect than the older ones. I once asked a Spanish architect why the houses weren't insulated and he said it's because when it gets very hot in summer, the heat can't escape through the walls. I can't quite see the logic of this though. Surely the insulation would keep it cooler inside?


Absolutely, I included insulation in a Queensland house against all local opinion and rarely had to run a/c and much easier to keep warm in winter, also included extended roof eaves to keep sun off walls.
It is often down to local prejudice, lack of govt leadership via legislation and lack of education in the construction industry that prevents change, that and the extra cost, although minimal, is often the deciding factor.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Helenameva said:


> In the UK, solid wall insulation has a pay-back period between 8 an 15 years. The figures could be different here because you should use the heating less. On the other hand, air conditioning wouldn't be a factor in the UK, so maybe it is swings and roundabouts. Anyway, the pay-back isn't overnight but once it's done it's done, unlike, say, a boiler which has a finite life and needs to be replaced, and the level of comfort all year should improve dramatically.


Yes, it's very different here. We've already looked into it and the cost would be prohibitive especially considering we're only likely to be here another ten or 15 years. We don't have cavity walls or a loft, so there is nowhere to put insulation. We have a large flat roof and four exterior walls over three floors, all of which get the sun at different parts of the day. All the windows are double-glazed and we use thermal curtains. But we have to have some ventilation in winter because of moisture from the bottled gas heater. We don't have aircon.

Having said that, it's currently 24ºC indoors and 34º outside, so something must be working! The house takes about a week to warm up/cool down when the weather changes.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Well I live in normal uninsulated Spanish house and although it is 29°C in the shade, I have just put on a cardigan.


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## davexf (Jan 26, 2009)

Hola 

I have a "modern" house built in 2000. above the ceiling is a void, then there is a type of tile between the concrete lintels; the tiles are over an inch thick and have holes running the length. Then there is four inches of concrete on which is built brick walls to form the slope. 

On the sloping walls there is more of the tiles covered with yet another layer of concrete. then there is the traditional roofing tiles on top. 

Therefore there are many are spaces (air is a good insulator) and layers of concrete which retain their temperature. 

We therefore need to look at the ambient temperature in each season - or the average temperature during a 24 hour period. When the temperature in winter drops to around zero, daytime tempuratures are around 20C. This gives an ambient temperature of around 10C. 

In summer daytime temperatures may get to 35C but night time temperatures are 15C giving 25C as an average. 

You can manage the solar gain by using the persianas or outside blinds to keep the sun out in summer and the heat in in winter. 

Therefore the payback period for insulation is probably longer than people think if they manage their house correctly. In England houses are built differently and not managed in the same way as traditionally in Spain. 

Davexf


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jimenato said:


> Yes, I know you well enough to know that.
> 
> Although it turns out there's not a lot wrong with Glyphosate...


OK, so it's not carcinogenic when you eat food that's been treated with it. Great news for Monsanto. Show me the research which proves it has no long term effects on biodiversity (e.g. by destroying plants which are primary food sources forcertain species), or on the population living in places where it is heavily used.



> What Happens to Glyphosate in the Environment? (National Geographic April 2015)
> Despite its widespread use, USGS hydrologist Paul Capel said there is “a dearth of information” on what happens to it once it is used. Glyphosate is not included in the U.S. government’s testing of food for pesticide residues or the monitoring of chemicals in human blood and tissues. As a result, there is no information on how much people are exposed to from using it in their yards, living near farms or eating foods from treated fields.


And the inert components of Roundup might be much more harmful than glyphosate:



> Weed-Whacking Herbicide Proves Deadly to Human Cells (Scientific American 2009)
> Until now, most health studies have focused on the safety of glyphosate, rather than the mixture of ingredients found in Roundup. But in the new study, scientists found that Roundup’s inert ingredients amplified the toxic effect on human cells—even at concentrations much more diluted than those used on farms and lawns.
> 
> One specific inert ingredient, polyethoxylated tallowamine, or POEA, was more deadly to human embryonic, placental and umbilical cord cells than the herbicide itself – a finding the researchers call “astonishing.”


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Anciana said:


> I think it is a tad more complicated. A corruption in bribing politicians by builders to NOT demand by law that the buildings be habitable by insulating them etc. And lack of consumer pressure demanding better building due to habit - most Spaniards never experienced anything better (btw why, on earth, Spanish kitchens have single sinks: its impractical and not higienic and how much more would a double sink cost?), so they are not pressing for change. But all the Brits and other expats? That combination allows developers to build way below European standard and charge MORE than the poor quality of housing they peddle would make the prices reasonable.
> 
> I guess expats are comparing prices in Britain and Northern Europe to prices in Spain, not taking into account that they are comparing quality products -well build, well insulated, well ventilated houses - to the rubbish peddled in Spain as housing.
> 
> ...


You make some valid points which I hadn't thought of. Thanks for that.

But our kitchen has a double sink, and I don't recall seeing anywhere that didn't - apart from unrenovated village houses that don't even have an oven.


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## Anciana (Jul 14, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> You make some valid points which I hadn't thought of. Thanks for that.
> 
> But our kitchen has a double sink, and I don't recall seeing anywhere that didn't - apart from unrenovated village houses that don't even have an oven.


I have been looking at plenty of apartments, both life and on line, most of them new, most of them high rent, beach front etc - and I have yet to see one with double sink. May be it is different with houses, or it is different in your area than on Costa Blanca.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Anciana said:


> I have been looking at plenty of apartments, both life and on line, most of them new, most of them high rent, beach front etc - and I have yet to see one with double sink. May be it is different with houses, or it is different in your area than on Costa Blanca.


This house in Jaén province) when we bought it, had:
In the kitchen a single-bowl sink with two laundry sinks (the type with a washboard) on the terrace 
On the floor below (el sotano) "the winter kitchen" there was a double sink.

We initially moved that stainless steel double sink up to the kitchen but the bowls were round and a low capacity with no drainer. We have now replaced it with a double having rectangular bowls and a drainer, the kitchen in the sotano is now my small office but contains a single s/s sink and drainer plus the old gas stove so it could be used, once again as a kitchen.


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

*Sinks*



Anciana said:


> I have been looking at plenty of apartments, both life and on line, most of them new, most of them high rent, beach front etc - and I have yet to see one with double sink. May be it is different with houses, or it is different in your area than on Costa Blanca.


I am probably very silly, but why is a single sink unhygenic?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Justina said:


> I am probably very silly, but why is a single sink unhygenic?


who said that?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Justina said:


> I am probably very silly, but why is a single sink unhygenic?


We only have a single one in the kitchen, with a drainer, and it hasn't killed us yet! We also have two laundry sinks outside, one on the ground floor and one on the second floor (originally we had 3 but thought that was rather a surfeit).


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> We only have a single one in the kitchen, with a drainer, and it hasn't killed us yet! We also have two laundry sinks outside, one on the ground floor and one on the second floor (originally we had 3 but thought that was rather a surfeit).


We removed the laundry sinks since we wouldn't use them and we wanted to extend the kitchen by 1.4 m. We could never understand how the previous owner managed to cater for three children, her husband and her parents in a kitchen that was little more than a cupboard.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> We removed the laundry sinks since we wouldn't use them and we wanted to extend the kitchen by 1.4 m. We could never understand how the previous owner managed to cater for three children, her husband and her parents in a kitchen that was little more than a cupboard.


We find ours useful for things like attaching a hosepipe to the tap, or the automatic watering system for plants if we're going to be away, and washing out paintbrushes/rinsing buckets. I don't think they've ever been used for laundry though!


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> Well I live in normal uninsulated Spanish house and although it is 29°C in the shade, I have just put on a cardigan.


That would be the damp in your house keeping it cool baldy, its known as Cooling by Evaporation


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

*Sinks*



baldilocks said:


> who said that?


Well that is no answer. I can see the logic of Lynn's use but anciana's defeats me.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Justina said:


> I am probably very silly, but why is a single sink unhygenic?


Maybe some folk like to rinse off washed plates etc in clean water? My mothers family were/are Jewish so I grew up with two sinks...cuts down the risk of cross contamination between meat and dairy/other products.

We use two sinks purely from habit and not religious reasons.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

bob_bob said:


> That would be the damp in your house keeping it cool baldy, its known as Cooling by Evaporation


Actually we don't have a damp problem and haven't had so for the last five years.


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

*Double sinks*



bob_bob said:


> Maybe some folk like to rinse off washed plates etc in clean water? My mothers family were/are Jewish so I grew up with two sinks...cuts down the risk of cross contamination between meat and dairy/other products.
> 
> We use two sinks purely from habit and not religious reasons.


Now that I understand and I also understand that Jewish people also separate the food in the fridge, which also seems reasonable.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Justina said:


> I am probably very silly, but why is a single sink unhygenic?


I have no idea.
When we re did the kitchen we did put in a double sink, but for convenience not for hygiene. Absolutely nothing wrong with one sink (which would be the majority of Spanish and British households) as far as I can see.
I think it's another great example, as are Anciana's posts about building standards, of other country, other culture, other expectations.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Getting back to the thread title I find it fascinating how visiting different places can improve ones health and mobility.

A wheelchair bound friend last year visited Lourdes. They totally immersed him in what was described as a holy spa.

When they took him back out it was quite miraculous . Fair enough he still couldn't walk but there was a complete set of new tyres on the chair!!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

bob_bob said:


> Maybe some folk like to rinse off washed plates etc in clean water? My mothers family were/are Jewish so I grew up with two sinks...cuts down the risk of cross contamination between meat and dairy/other products.
> 
> We use two sinks purely from habit and not religious reasons.


We rinse off washed plates, etc in clean water, with a single sink. The washed plates get stacked on the draining board whilst the sink empties, then it is filled up with clean water, the plates etc are rinsed and placed in the draining cupboard over the sink (it isn't one of those which drips directly into the sink, but has draining racks in it with a drip tray underneath). In the morning they are dry and can be put away and the drip tray emptied. No more difficult than loading and unloading a dishwasher and avoids drying dishes with unhygienic tea towels.


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## VinhoVerde (May 2, 2014)

I must admit that I have enjoyed the various posts on this thread and where the different thoughts lead to, but I'm still rather interested in knowing if you find it easier coping with health issues in Spain or not. Judging by some of the posts with early time stamps, people must be up and about getting ready for an early morning walk, no? Walking regularly is pretty good for one's health, apparently. 

I realize that many who have come to Spain are on the 'downhill slope' of life, as I am myself. But what are you doing to maintain as good a health as long as possible? And do you think it is easier here than it might be elsewhere? Or did you move here simply to take advantage of the pleasures Spain offers while you are still able to enjoy them? Then Spain must offer more pleasures than elsewhere or pleasures at a better price than elsewhere?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

VinhoVerde said:


> I must admit that I have enjoyed the various posts on this thread and where the different thoughts lead to, but I'm still rather interested in knowing if you find it easier coping with health issues in Spain or not. Judging by some of the posts with early time stamps, people must be up and about getting ready for an early morning walk, no? Walking regularly is pretty good for one's health, apparently.
> 
> I realize that many who have come to Spain are on the 'downhill slope' of life, as I am myself. But what are you doing to maintain as good a health as long as possible? And do you think it is easier here than it might be elsewhere? Or did you move here simply to take advantage of the pleasures Spain offers while you are still able to enjoy them? Then Spain must offer more pleasures than elsewhere or pleasures at a better price than elsewhere?


We don't have a car, and walk down to the shops every day (and carry the shopping back uphill) in preference to doing a weekly shop. We see our elderly Spanish neighbours doing the same, well into their 80s. Not only is it exercise for them, but it also avoids them being isolated at home as it's a sociable activity with lots of stopping to chat to neighbours and friends - or even strangers as often happens!

Something I notice here is the amount of elderly people who are out and about in the evenings, taking a paseo or a drink at a local cafe or bar. It is nice to see that they feel safe enough to do that, in the centre of a large town.

I am keener on exercise than my husband is, although he is still pretty fit and very healthy, hasn't even seen a GP for years and he is 66. I spend 3 afternoons at the gym where I swim, exercise with weights and do Pilates classes. My health club, with private indoor pool, is much cheaper than the one I used to use in the UK, it costs me €24.50 per month if I pay for a year upfront.

Our local centro de dia para personas mayores has lots of keep-fit type activities for elderly people, such as gentle exercise classes, yoga, dancing and a walking group. I don't participate as yet as I think I'm still able to cope with something rather more strenuous, but it is nice that these things are there and they are very well attended. There is a small charge, I believe, but it is very little.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

bob_bob said:


> Maybe some folk like to rinse off washed plates etc in clean water? My mothers family were/are Jewish so I grew up with two sinks...cuts down the risk of cross contamination between meat and dairy/other products.
> 
> We use two sinks purely from habit and not religious reasons.


When I was 15 I went to France on a language exchange and my host ran a café. As well as a lot of useful vocabulary (!) he taught me three things that have stayed with me all my life. How to make an omelette, how to drink sensibly, and how to wash up. He said the English were a filthy lot because they only used one sink. It's essential, he said, to wash in one and rinse in the other. He wasn't Jewish.


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

*Dishes*



Alcalaina said:


> When I was 15 I went to France on a language exchange and my host ran a café. As well as a lot of useful vocabulary (!) he taught me three things that have stayed with me all my life. How to make an omelette, how to drink sensibly, and how to wash up. He said the English were a filthy lot because they only used one sink. It's essential, he said, to wash in one and rinse in the other. He wasn't Jewish.


Probably around the same time that you took your trip, my old ma used to say that the French were a dirty lot and she would never have known about double sinks.
And what did drinking in a sensible manner imply?


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

I think most serious health problems are genetic or due to lifestyle one had. I agree with baldilocks about stress etc. Settled where you want to be, no work worries like commuting every day etc. And the sun is a feel good factor. I believe in keeping active too, a dog is good for that always meet plenty of dog walkers.

Never been a health freak or into health foods. I do refrain from taking tablets if possible. I smoked for a long time but never had health problems.


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## Anciana (Jul 14, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I have no idea.
> When we re did the kitchen we did put in a double sink, but for convenience not for hygiene. Absolutely nothing wrong with one sink (which would be the majority of Spanish and British households) as far as I can see.
> I think it's another great example, as are Anciana's posts about building standards, of other country, other culture, other expectations.


I never cooked in UK, have never even seen the inside of an ordinary British house. Yes, I worked in London for a few months (long time ago - early seventies) at the Strategic Institute, but stayed in their guest apartments and ate at their club, thus no cooking and no single sink problems.

But now I know why Brits do not complain about the inadequacies of Spanish housing. They seem to have similar expectations. I need to ask Scandinavian expats why don't THEY, as they surely consider a single sink a question of not only lack of convenience, but also hygiene.

Instead of stacking soapy dishes on the counter, you just put them in under the running water in the other sink (yes, you use more water that way) and on the drying shelf. Simple, one movement and you know (or at least are convinced) that the dishes are clean.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

I am fascinated by all this talk of how to wash dishes. I never realized there were so many varied ways to go about it!

So has nobody ever seen a Spanish person do the washing up? I give the example of my Spanish mother-in-law, a very traditional, Andalusian woman in her 70's. She stacks the dirty dishes in the (single) sink, and she wets the washing sponge and squirts dish soap into it. Then she opens the tap onto the dirty dishes but doesn't put the stopper into the sink (in fact, I don't think there is a stopper?) so the dishes aren't sitting in a pool of water. She picks up the dishes one by one and gives them a scrub and then a rinse right under the tap. Then she stacks each one in the built-in drying rack which is in the cabinet over the sink. As she's rinsing each washed dish she's pre-rinsing the dishes in the sink. Nothing unhygienic about the process, unless she doesn't replace her washing sponge regularly. But hers always looking spanking new so I assume she does. No need for a double sink.

But I have to say, I have many friends here who have double sinks in their kitchens, so it's not unusual!


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

The cabinet over the sink.
Yes, that is a really clever idea and seen them in various flats here.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Reading all this makes me glad we have a dishwasher.


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

*Dishes*



Pazcat said:


> Reading all this makes me glad we have a dishwasher.


That made me laugh. I also have a dishwasher but since I am on my own, it would take a week to fill it up and the pong would be something awful.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Anciana said:


> I never cooked in UK, have never even seen the inside of an ordinary British house. Yes, I worked in London for a few months (long time ago - early seventies) at the Strategic Institute, but stayed in their guest apartments and ate at their club, thus no cooking and no single sink problems.
> 
> But now I know why Brits do not complain about the inadequacies of Spanish housing. They seem to have similar expectations. I need to ask Scandinavian expats why don't THEY, as they surely consider a single sink a question of not only lack of convenience, but also hygiene.
> 
> Instead of stacking soapy dishes on the counter, you just put them in under the running water in the other sink (yes, you use more water that way) and on the drying shelf. Simple, one movement and you know (or at least are convinced) that the dishes are clean.


The last twenty years or so has seen a swing towards open plan kitchen/dinning areas in UK home, brits now spend a lot of money on this area of there homes...times have changed in the UK.


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## mono (Jan 22, 2016)

Italian kitchens also have the drying cupboard with plate racks and mesh shelves for the other stuff.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Always had a double sink, even when we lived in Singapore. Never wash dishes, all go in the dishwasher.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Anciana said:


> I never cooked in UK, have never even seen the inside of an ordinary British house. Yes, I worked in London for a few months (long time ago - early seventies) at the Strategic Institute, but stayed in their guest apartments and ate at their club, thus no cooking and no single sink problems.
> 
> But now I know why Brits do not complain about the inadequacies of Spanish housing. They seem to have similar expectations. I need to ask Scandinavian expats why don't THEY, as they surely consider a single sink a question of not only lack of convenience, but also hygiene.
> 
> Instead of stacking soapy dishes on the counter, you just put them in under the running water in the other sink (yes, you use more water that way) and on the drying shelf. Simple, one movement and you know (or at least are convinced) that the dishes are clean.


I don't understand what you think goes on in a sink, nor why dishes can't be rinsed off even if you only have one sink.
Anyway, as some have pointed out, a lot of people now have dishwashers which often use less water than the hand dishwashing method


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> We don't have a car, and walk down to the shops every day (and carry the shopping back uphill) in preference to doing a weekly shop. We see our elderly Spanish neighbours doing the same, well into their 80s. Not only is it exercise for them, but it also avoids them being isolated at home as it's a sociable activity with lots of stopping to chat to neighbours and friends - or even strangers as often happens!
> 
> Something I notice here is the amount of elderly people who are out and about in the evenings, taking a paseo or a drink at a local cafe or bar. It is nice to see that they feel safe enough to do that, in the centre of a large town.
> 
> ...


Exactly
My MIL in Bilbao, will be 90 this month. Walks for at least an hour a day. Goes to church almost every day. Shops and cooks every day and often cooks for 15 of us when we get together (her 5 children, spouses and grand children) A few years ago she delegated the task of New Year's Eve dinner, which usually involves upwards of 20 people, to others. She goes out on her own all the time and at all times. Her brothers and sisters (there are 7 of them) are all pretty much in the same line.
Forgot to say, I am learning from her. Keep going, keep moving at all costs, stay in touch with the world (she reads El Correo every day), socialise, take an interest in people, engage with the world. And of course, being Basque, eat well


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Pah, that's nothing!

When MY mil goes shopping she carries a Ford Focus on her back, a washing m/c under each arm and hops all 23 miles there and back and not only is she 114 but she died several years ago and STILL does the shopping- beat that!


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

We sometimes felt shamed by the old widows in their black dresses barreling up and down the steep, narrow streets of Jimena, heavily laden with the day's shopping. 

I was chatting with Angel the bar owner as one of these little old ladies strode manfully past us up the hill, and mentioned how wonderful it was that they they were able to do this at their age - a testament no doubt to selfless hard work, outdoor life and a healthy Mediterranean diet.

"But she's only 35" he said.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

jimenato said:


> We sometimes felt shamed by the old widows in their black dresses barreling up and down the steep, narrow streets of Jimena, heavily laden with the day's shopping.
> 
> I was chatting with Angel the bar owner as one of these little old ladies strode manfully past us up the hill, and mentioned how wonderful it was that they they were able to do this at their age - a testament no doubt to selfless hard work, outdoor life and a healthy Mediterranean diet.
> 
> "But she's only 35" he said.


We were once out walking from Frigiliana to Nerja, down the (dry) River Chillar bed. It was a hot day and we sat down on some rocks for a rest, there was an elderly couple in their 70s, at least, sitting nearby. We were shamed when they stood up, each hoisted a sack of potatoes onto their shoulders and set off again UP the riverbed! Maybe they were only 35 too, though.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Justina said:


> And what did drinking in a sensible manner imply?


Never drink on an empty stomach; always drink the equivalent amount of water; when you think you've had enough but everyone else is still going, just order the mixer without the spirit (e.g. tonic with ice and lemon). I can't say I always followed this advice when younger but these days I definitely do.


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

*35*



Lynn R said:


> We were once out walking from Frigiliana to Nerja, down the (dry) River Chillar bed. It was a hot day and we sat down on some rocks for a rest, there was an elderly couple in their 70s, at least, sitting nearby. We were shamed when they stood up, each hoisted a sack of potatoes onto their shoulders and set off again UP the riverbed! Maybe they were only 35 too, though.


I remember many years ago being driven through the Greek countryside and seeing more than once men sitting astride donkeys with the women walking at the side with what looked like firewood. Perhaps they too were only 35.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Its not the mens fault the women did not have their own Donkey's


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## Justina (Jan 25, 2013)

*Donkeys*



bob_bob said:


> Its not the mens fault the women did not have their own Donkey's


Quite right, bob bob


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Justina said:


> I remember many years ago being driven through the Greek countryside and seeing more than once men sitting astride donkeys with the women walking at the side with what looked like firewood. Perhaps they too were only 35.


Aesop's Fable 6th Century BC:



> A MAN and his son were once going with their Donkey to market. As they were walking along by its side a countryman passed them and said: “You fools, what is a Donkey for but to ride upon?”
> 
> So the Man put the Boy on the Donkey and they went on their way. But soon they passed a group of men, one of whom said: “See that lazy youngster, he lets his father walk while he rides.”
> 
> ...


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## VinhoVerde (May 2, 2014)

jimenato said:


> We sometimes felt shamed by the old widows in their black dresses barreling up and down the steep, narrow streets of Jimena, heavily laden with the day's shopping.
> 
> I was chatting with Angel the bar owner as one of these little old ladies strode manfully past us up the hill, and mentioned how wonderful it was that they they were able to do this at their age - a testament no doubt to selfless hard work, outdoor life and a healthy Mediterranean diet.
> 
> "But she's only 35" he said.


It seems to me that Angel is a very considerate man... Or perhaps he was defending his market share?


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