# Renewing "residency" certificates



## Stravinsky

There's been a little bit of confusion on this, since the new rules applied regarding proving income etc.

I've just read an article by David Searle which was published in this months Prestige Magazine by BancoSabadell

It appears that the Government have taken the view (against EU regulations) that the Certificate of Registration that is issued has to be renewed every 5 years, and that when you renew it you have to satisfy the new rules regarding income. The Government had originally said that current holders of the certificate would not be affected, but they have changed their minds.

It seems, as usual, as residents here we have to abide by Spanish rules on this, with the option that we can appeal to the EU. It appears that many already have done so as it is incompatible with EU Directive 2004/38 which abolishes residence permits for EU citizens and the Spanish Royal Decree 240/2007 which transposes the Directive into Spanish law

So ...... that would be another two day trip to the local Police station here as now (according to reports) you have to go one day to queue to get an appointment for the following day, and a second day to queue just to be seen


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## xabiaxica

- even though they don't have an expiry date on them ?

it's quite simple here actually - you can go to Denia on a Friday to make an appt for the following week - or one person can go & make appts for however many friends  & recent reports are that they are very efficient at appt time, too

I have to say I'm not impressed at the thought of having to 'prove' income though - it's not like I'm not on pretty much every computer in Spain already......... (just realised I haven't registered to vote, but that's not compulsory & it's only very recently that I've become interested in local politics )


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## Stravinsky

Well Lynne, we're considering our position here. This is just another nail in the coffin. It's a major effort to get a certificate here, and I thought I was done with it last time. It can take two days!!!

Also the reporting law, I have to give the Spanish authorities my full address in the UK (which I dont give to anyone here), I have to give them the full bank account details, balances at December 2012, average balances for previous 3 months, registration numbers of bonds, shares, investments ...... so you see it's pretty detailed and I cant believe overall it is only for their records.


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## xabiaxica

Stravinsky said:


> Well Lynne, we're considering our position here. This is just another nail in the coffin. It's a major effort to get a certificate here, and I thought I was done with it last time. It can take two days!!!
> 
> Also the reporting law, I have to give the Spanish authorities my full address in the UK (which I dont give to anyone here), I have to give them the full bank account details, balances at December 2012, average balances for previous 3 months, registration numbers of bonds, shares, investments ...... so you see it's pretty detailed and I cant believe overall it is only for their records.


yes - I can imagine that somewhere down the line there might be another reason for this 'reporting' malarky - & can quite understand why it would make you ( & others) reconsider your position here

you do know you can get a res. cert. in Benidorm though? it's walk in walk out no appt reqd - just get there early & join the queue


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## Pesky Wesky

Stravinsky said:


> Well Lynne, we're considering our position here. This is just another nail in the coffin. It's a major effort to get a certificate here, and I thought I was done with it last time. It can take two days!!!
> 
> Also the reporting law, I have to give the Spanish authorities my full address in the UK (which I dont give to anyone here), I have to give them the full bank account details, balances at December 2012, average balances for previous 3 months, registration numbers of bonds, shares, investments ...... so you see it's pretty detailed and I cant believe overall it is only for their records.


What's the reporting law, Stravinsky?


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> - even though they don't have an expiry date on them ?


Yes, I'd like to know that too. Seems that I was lucky that I needed to renew when I did and I got a indefinite one. But I suppose that law can be revoked too.
Maybe this year I'll get my Spanish citizenship or whatever it's called.
I read the David Searle article and there's also one of the old UK versus Spain driving licence. There are very clearly written.


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, I'd like to know that too. Seems that I was lucky that I needed to renew when I did and I got a indefinite one. But I suppose that law can be revoked too.
> Maybe this year I'll get my Spanish citizenship or whatever it's called.
> I read the David Searle article and there's also one of the old UK versus Spain driving licence. There are very clearly written.


not long now before we can apply for citizenship

my elder dd has long said that she wants to - I hadn't planned to but it might just be easier in the long run


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## snikpoh

Pesky Wesky said:


> What's the reporting law, Stravinsky?


I think he's referring to the new Asset reporting law. By the end of April, you have to notify them of ALL assets held out side Spain that are over 50keuros.

So, if you have a house in UK, it must be reported. If you have savings accounts with more than a total of 50k - report them etc. etc.


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## Pesky Wesky

snikpoh said:


> I think he's referring to the new Asset reporting law. By the end of April, you have to notify them of ALL assets held out side Spain that are over 50keuros.
> 
> So, if you have a house in UK, it must be reported. If you have savings accounts with more than a total of 50k - report them etc. etc.


Me?

Over 50K?
:bounce: :lol: :happy: :lol: :happy::bounce:

More like over 50p


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Me?
> 
> Over 50K?
> :bounce: :lol: :happy: :lol: :happy::bounce:
> 
> More like over 50p


same here 


everything I do have is in Spain, anyway!


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## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> Seems that I was lucky that I needed to renew when I did and I got a indefinite one. But I suppose that law can be revoked too.


You might want to check the validity of that already. We applied for, and in theory got, permanent certificates in 2009, but recently we were told that they were valid for 10 years, despite not having an expiry date on them. We were told however that we would not have to provide evidence of income or anything like that because those types of rules are only applied to citizens from countries such as Romania....


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## Stravinsky

Pesky Wesky said:


> *Yes, I'd like to know that too. Seems that I was lucky that I needed to renew when I did and I got a indefinite one. But I suppose that law can be revoked too.*
> Maybe this year I'll get my Spanish citizenship or whatever it's called.
> I read the David Searle article and there's also one of the old UK versus Spain driving licence. There are very clearly written.


Pesky, read it again 
You havent got an indefinite one. Like you, I have one with no date, but it is only valid for 5 years it seems and then we have to renew again. When this first started the Govt said people already with certs would not be affected ..... but they have changed their mind so your certificate will only last 5 years and then you have to apply for another one and prove your income / health


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## Lolito

Over 50K? even if it is mortgaged and still owe a lot to the banks?


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## snikpoh

Lolito said:


> Over 50K? even if it is mortgaged and still owe a lot to the banks?


That's what I was wondering - surely the bank are shareholders in your property as well?

That being the case, do you only declare if your 'percentage' (value-debt) is more than 50k?


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## Pesky Wesky

Overandout and Stravinsky
Yes, exactly. Even though on the paper it says ...como residente comunitario con carácter permanente en España. That's why I said I suppose that law can be revoked. 
Well, as I know I'm here for the long haul I'm going to start the paperwork for Spanish ID. As OH is Spanish it hopefully won't be a problem. In some ways I'd rather do it just do it through me and the number of years I've been here, but I'm self employed and I can just see it getting complicated there. I'm just going to leave it in the hands of a gestor. Unfortunately it will mean paying out, but I think not too much... I'll let you know.
Does anyone know anything about this?
_*El certificado de residencia permanente de ciudadano de la Unión.*
Los ciudadanos de un Estado miembro de la Unión Europea, de otro Estado parte en el Acuerdo sobre el Espacio Económico Europeo o Suiza que residan en España podrán obtener el certificado de residencia permanente de ciudadano de la Unión._








This is a different format to mine and the name of the certificate is different. Mine is Certificado de registro de cuidadano de la union.


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## anles

Pesky Wesky said:


> Overandout and Stravinsky
> Yes, exactly. Even though on the paper it says ...como residente comunitario con carácter permanente en España. That's why I said I suppose that law can be revoked.
> Well, as I know I'm here for the long haul I'm going to start the paperwork for Spanish ID. As OH is Spanish it hopefully won't be a problem. In some ways I'd rather do it just do it through me and the number of years I've been here, but I'm self employed and I can just see it getting complicated there. I'm just going to leave it in the hands of a gestor. Unfortunately it will mean paying out, but I think not too much... I'll let you know.
> Does anyone know anything about this?
> _*El certificado de residencia permanente de ciudadano de la Unión.*
> Los ciudadanos de un Estado miembro de la Unión Europea, de otro Estado parte en el Acuerdo sobre el Espacio Económico Europeo o Suiza que residan en España podrán obtener el certificado de residencia permanente de ciudadano de la Unión._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a different format to mine and the name of the certificate is different. Mine is Certificado de registro de cuidadano de la union.


The format is the same as mine, and the name is the same: Certificado de registro de ciudadanos de la unión. Below, as this one, it says residente comunitario permanente en España desde 20/3/1991. I don't know where this date comes from though, perhaps the first time that I was issued with a "Permiso de residencia comunitario"


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## Pesky Wesky

anles said:


> The format is the same as mine, and the name is the same: Certificado de registro de ciudadanos de la unión. Below, as this one, it says residente comunitario permanente en España desde 20/3/1991. I don't know where this date comes from though, perhaps the first time that I was issued with a "Permiso de residencia comunitario"


The information about both certificates is here. I forgot to put the link in before.
Certificado de residencia permanente de ciudadano de la Unión
My certificate is like this
http://sp3.fotolog.com/photo/19/42/17/pivkelina/1197565036_f.jpg
The format is different, but the info is the same, and mine also says that I started living here in 1991 which coincides with the first C permit I got I think - remember there used to be A, B, or C work permits??


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## Overandout

My certificate is also very similar to the second example posted, but there is a crucial detail missing from mine; the word "permanente" does not figure in the text.

I presume that, despite being told to apply for permanent registration on the basis of having been here for 5 years when my Tarjeta de Residencia expired in 2009, this was not granted because they have not recognised that I have been here as long as I really have been. My certificate states "desde el once de enero del 2006" which is just an arbitrary date with no significance.

It is interesting to hear that author of the article assumes that the registration requires renewing every 5 years, where does this come from? Is it simply because the old Tarjeta de Residencia was valid for 5 years?


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## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> It is interesting to hear that author of the article assumes that the registration requires renewing every 5 years, where does this come from?


Where does it say that?


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## snikpoh

Pesky Wesky said:


> Where does it say that?


Read post #1 - it was an article in a Sabadell magazine - source yet to be confirmed I think.


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## Pesky Wesky

Stravinsky said:


> There's been a little bit of confusion on this, since the new rules applied regarding proving income etc.
> 
> I've just read an article by David Searle which was published in this months Prestige Magazine by BancoSabadell
> 
> It appears that the Government have taken the view (against EU regulations) that the Certificate of Registration that is issued has to be renewed every 5 years, and that when you renew it you have to satisfy the new rules regarding income. The Government had originally said that current holders of the certificate would not be affected, but they have changed their minds.
> 
> It seems, as usual, as residents here we have to abide by Spanish rules on this, with the option that we can appeal to the EU. It appears that many already have done so as it is incompatible with EU Directive 2004/38 which abolishes residence permits for EU citizens and the Spanish Royal Decree 240/2007 which transposes the Directive into Spanish law
> 
> So ...... that would be another two day trip to the local Police station here as now (according to reports) you have to go one day to queue to get an appointment for the following day, and a second day to queue just to be seen


First, here is a link to the magazine, which has some interesting articles in it
https://www.bancsabadell.com/cs/Satellite/SabAtl/ClubPrestige-Magazine/6000002789059/en/
Looking at the article by David Searl (pg 46) more closely I can't see any mention of 5 year renewal. Did you see it here or somewhere else?
For xabiachica and others who were told that our certificate was permanent, in the article, in the middle column, at the end of the paragraph it says...


> Those EU citizens who already hold the Certificate of Registration in Spain are not affected by the new measures


I wouldn't write that in stone though!


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## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> First, here is a link to the magazine, which has some interesting articles in it
> https://www.bancsabadell.com/cs/Satellite/SabAtl/ClubPrestige-Magazine/6000002789059/en/
> Looking at the article by David Searl (pg 46) more closely I can't see any mention of 5 year renewal. Did you see it here or somewhere else?
> For xabiachica and others who were told that our certificate was permanent, in the article, in the middle column, at the end of the paragraph it says...
> I wouldn't write that in stone though!


Although those residency certificates are not expiry-dated, some Officinas de Extranjeros are writing to people to tell them to renew their certifficates.


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## Stravinsky

Pesky Wesky said:


> First, here is a link to the magazine, which has some interesting articles in it
> https://www.bancsabadell.com/cs/Satellite/SabAtl/ClubPrestige-Magazine/6000002789059/en/
> Looking at the article by David Searl (pg 46) more closely I can't see any mention of 5 year renewal. Did you see it here or somewhere else?
> For xabiachica and others who were told that our certificate was permanent, in the article, in the middle column, at the end of the paragraph it says...
> I wouldn't write that in stone though!


Thats not the article, nor the mAgazine that I am quoting from. The link you have shown is for last Autumns Prestige Magazine and is clearly not up to date. Things change in Spain fairly regularly as you know

In the Spring edition it starts Unfortunately it is correct. After 5 years you must renew your certificate and meet the new requirements ......


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## Stravinsky

snikpoh said:


> Read post #1 - it was an article in a Sabadell magazine - source yet to be confirmed I think.



No, it was written as I said by David Searle


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## Pesky Wesky

Stravinsky said:


> Thats not the article, nor the mAgazine that I am quoting from. The link you have shown is for last Autumns Prestige Magazine and is clearly not up to date. Things change in Spain fairly regularly as you know
> 
> In the Spring edition it starts Unfortunately it is correct. After 5 years you must renew your certificate and meet the new requirements ......


OK Stravinsky.
I wasn't doubting your info, but just wanted to know where it was so that I can send it to my friends!
Could you post a link or send me a link to the article? 
Thanks


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## Overandout

snikpoh said:


> Read post #1 - it was an article in a Sabadell magazine - source yet to be confirmed I think.


Indeed thats the 5 years I was referring to. But it goes against the 10 years we were told.


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## Stravinsky

Pesky Wesky said:


> OK Stravinsky.
> I wasn't doubting your info, but just wanted to know where it was so that I can send it to my friends!
> Could you post a link or send me a link to the article?
> Thanks


It's not on line yet, I have it because I get the magazine posted to me every quarter. When I say article, it is in fact6 a specific reply to the exact question being asked because a member of the bank was challenged by the police regarding their certificate. The National Police Office had told the person that their certificate would have to be renewed at 5 years, and she was pulling David Searle up, presumably, because what he had said before


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## snikpoh

Stravinsky said:


> No, it was written as I said by David Searle


That's what I said - refer to your post (#1) where David wrote an article for the magazine.

No one has yet provided a link to his source material - hence 'not yet confirmed'.


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## Stravinsky

snikpoh said:


> No one has yet provided a link to his source material - hence 'not yet confirmed'.


OK, well .... unless you think I am making it up then it IS confirmed.  I'm looking at it. Hard print, and as I just stated above I cant provide a link for afaik it's not on line yet as it's still only the Autumn mag. David Searle writes for this mag in nearly every issue


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## Pesky Wesky

Well, I'm going crazy here looking at the Ministerio del Interior site and the Dirección Genereal de Policia, and can't see any reference about how long the certificates last.
Before anyone writes a hasty reply to this my only point here is that if it's not on any official site it means that people are interepreting the law. Now if you are the EU member trying to do something with your certificate it doesn't matter what the Ministerio del Interior has said or not because the official in front of you has to apply the law in the way that they think fit, so you have to satisfy the requirements that s/he decides. 
In my own case, if it has to be renewed in 5 years or 10 years it doesn't affect me yet and I'm trying to find out what the official line is at the moment, to know what I (may) expect in the future.
BTW RE snikpoh's last post. I think what he means is where did David Searl get the information about the 5 year renewal, what is *his* source, which is what I'd like to know too as , like I say, I can't find any reference to it by the government.


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## Pesky Wesky

baldilocks said:


> Although those residency certificates are not expiry-dated, some Officinas de Extranjeros are writing to people to tell them to renew their certifficates.


As I said, I wouldn't write it in stone.


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## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, I'm going crazy here looking at the Ministerio del Interior site and the Dirección Genereal de Policia, and can't see any reference about how long the certificates last.
> Before anyone writes a hasty reply to this my only point here is that if it's not on any official site it means that people are interepreting the law. Now if you are the EU member trying to do something with your certificate it doesn't matter what the Ministerio del Interior has said or not because the official in front of you has to apply the law in the way that they think fit, so you have to satisfy the requirements that s/he decides.
> In my own case, if it has to be renewed in 5 years or 10 years it doesn't affect me yet and I'm trying to find out what the official line is at the moment, to know what I (may) expect in the future.
> BTW RE snikpoh's last post. I think what he means is where did David Searl get the information about the 5 year renewal, what is his source, which is what I'd like to know too as , like I say, I can't find any reference to it by the government.


I also spent some time looking around for concrete evidence after we were told about the 10 year validity. But I couldn't find any reference to any validity periods at all.


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## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> I also spent some time looking around for concrete evidence after we were told about the 10 year validity. But I couldn't find any reference to any validity periods at all.


Yes, That's just the thing isn't it? I was told there was no need to renew. I nearly fell on the floor when the woman told me that .
You were told to renew after 10 years, and David Searl after 5 years, but nowhere does it say any one of those except that on my certificate there is the word _*permanente*_, which doesn't mean anything of course, a bit like life imprisonment meaning 25 years.
So "flexilaw" reigns which the government can apply, or adapt as it wishes.
¡¡Y que se joda la gente!!


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## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> So "flexilaw" reigns which the government can apply, or adapt as it wishes...


...and local funcionarios will interpret as they will, dependent on whether they have had breakfast and whether their partners had headaches, the night before. Such is the Spanish way which is all part of why we are here.


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## JaneyO

Puzzled about all this- and fed up with having yet more new laws to worry about! I read somewhere that if you have been a resident here for 5 years you are entitled to permanent residency under EU law. If I have to renew my certificate that says 'permanente' and they don't like what I tell them about my income etc are they going to throw me out? I don't think they can do that unless I commit murder or something- and I'm considering doing just that to the next politician I meet!!


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## gus-lopez

JaneyO said:


> Puzzled about all this- and fed up with having yet more new laws to worry about! I read somewhere that if you have been a resident here for 5 years you are entitled to permanent residency under EU law. If I have to renew my certificate that says 'permanente' and they don't like what I tell them about my income etc are they going to throw me out? I don't think they can do that unless I commit murder or something- and I'm considering doing just that to the next politician I meet!!


No they cannot throw you out . 

The certificate has no expiration, nor under EU rules can it ever have. 

There is no requirement to actually register. They can fine you for failing to APPLY to register , which is the offence, but being unable to fulfil there requirements to register does not mean they can ask you to leave. 

Having applied to register once, is sufficient to satisfy the requirements. ( Even if you fail.)

No EU country has the right to grant 'residency' . It is the right of the EU citizen to decide that he/she wishes to be resident of that country.

Once here, after 5 years you are entitled to permanent residency. Any means of substantiating that you have been here for that period is sufficient.

Yes , you do find that in many places they are 'interpreting ' the laws how they wish /are instructed. I now find ,in places that are known to be doing this, that a request for the 'hojas' at the outset serves 2 or 3 purposes. 

1) It throws them into a panic & off balance. When asked why , as we haven't even spoken about anything , I reply that as there way of interpreting EU rules is usually illegal  we are going to need them shortly for the complaints, so let us make sure you have them from the outset.

2) If they can't come up with them before you start then call the police as it is a criminal offence not to have or supply when requested .

3) Once you start to discuss/apply ,whatever you are there for, they are far more amenable knowing that you have all the EU info printed out & have no qualms about making complaints.

It shouldn't be necessary & aggravates me greatly when I do have to do it.


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## JaneyO

Thanks for that! I'm printing it out, against the day when/if I get a letter about renewal. Until then I am keeping my head down!


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## Overandout

The funcionaria that attended to us when we went in January actually told us that there was no need to even apply to be included in the register, simply that it was our right to do so!

I think that her interpretation was particularly far fetched anyway, but it just goes to show what the people who deal with "us" know about the rules (remeber that we were also told that the checks to ensure that we could financially support ourselves wouldn't be applied to us as UK citizens.....)

I work with a German colleague who has been living without a green paper since his tarjeta de residencia expired a few years ago.

He still gets health care, still has his kids in school and still can buy vehicles, work, and do whatever else I do.

His ethos is that the green form does nothing for him so why bother. I can see his point.

I do realise, by the way, that if he were a new immigrant he probably wouldn't be able to do this.


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## gus-lopez

Overandout said:


> I also spent some time looking around for concrete evidence after we were told about the 10 year validity. But I couldn't find any reference to any validity periods at all.


The 10 year validity only applies to what are called 'third party ' family members. That is non EU members of your family. They do not get a certificate but a 'tarjeta' which has to be renewed every 10 years. ( Once a permanent resident ) I think the funcionarios are getting confused. 
This reminds me of an e-mail reply from the EU solvit people who asked the question of Spanish ministers & were " firstly amused ,then amazed & then concerned " that no one at ministerial level appeared to have any idea if cards/certificates would need renewing ,when they would propose renewal & whether the proposals were legal in respect of EU rules. " " We find it very worrying ." They should try living here !!! 

The original directive.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:EN:PDF


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## Pesky Wesky

gus-lopez said:


> The 10 year validity only applies to what are called 'third party ' family members. That is non EU members of your family. They do not get a certificate but a 'tarjeta' which has to be renewed every 10 years. ( Once a permanent resident ) I think the funcionarios are getting confused.
> This reminds me of an e-mail reply from the EU solvit people who asked the question of Spanish ministers & were " firstly amused ,then amazed & then concerned " that no one at ministerial level appeared to have any idea if cards/certificates would need renewing ,when they would propose renewal & whether the proposals were legal in respect of EU rules. " " We find it very worrying ." They should try living here !!!
> 
> The original directive.
> 
> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:EN:PDF


Who are the EU solvit people?

Yes, I saw on the ministry page all the info about family members. Without trying to be pessimistic I do think that the very lack of information about renewing OR not needing to be reviewed is done for a reason, and that reason is to have flexibilty to interprete the laws how they want to at any one time, be it legal or not.


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## gus-lopez

Pesky Wesky said:


> Who are the EU solvit people?
> 
> Yes, I saw on the ministry page all the info about family members. Without trying to be pessimistic I do think that the very lack of information about renewing OR not needing to be reviewed is done for a reason, and that reason is to have flexibilty to interprete the laws how they want to at any one time, be it legal or not.



SOLVIT homepage

You can also start with these who will pass it on to the above if necessary.

About Your Europe Advice - Your Europe - Citizens


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## Pesky Wesky

gus-lopez said:


> No they cannot throw you out .
> 
> The certificate has no expiration, nor under EU rules can it ever have.
> 
> There is no requirement to actually register. They can fine you for failing to APPLY to register , which is the offence, but being unable to fulfil there requirements to register does not mean they can ask you to leave.
> 
> Having applied to register once, is sufficient to satisfy the requirements. ( Even if you fail.)
> 
> No EU country has the right to grant 'residency' . It is the right of the EU citizen to decide that he/she wishes to be resident of that country.
> 
> Once here, after 5 years you are entitled to permanent residency. Any means of substantiating that you have been here for that period is sufficient.
> 
> Yes , you do find that in many places they are 'interpreting ' the laws how they wish /are instructed. I now find ,in places that are known to be doing this, that a request for the 'hojas' at the outset serves 2 or 3 purposes.
> 
> 1) It throws them into a panic & off balance. When asked why , as we haven't even spoken about anything , I reply that as there way of interpreting EU rules is usually illegal  we are going to need them shortly for the complaints, so let us make sure you have them from the outset.
> 
> 2) If they can't come up with them before you start then call the police as it is a criminal offence not to have or supply when requested .
> 
> 3) Once you start to discuss/apply ,whatever you are there for, they are far more amenable knowing that you have all the EU info printed out & have no qualms about making complaints.
> 
> It shouldn't be necessary & aggravates me greatly when I do have to do it.


There's something not quite right here, and I can't figure out what it is... Maybe it's the names of certificates that we're using
I think it *is* obligatory for us to register on the foreigners in Spain list, (certificado de registro de ciudadanos de EU) but it's not obligatory for us, obviously, to become permanent residents.
As for asking for the hojas, I suppose you mean las hojas de reclamación, in the police station when getting the certificate and never knowing whether you're doing everything by the book because they're always moving the goal posts, well personally I wouldn't want to rock the boat.  And imagine someone doing it without a good level of Spanish. They'd make mincemeat out of him.
The other thing is, if someone is asking you for your cerificate and you haven't got it you're not going to get far, which brings me to overandout


Quote from Overandout


> I work with a German colleague who has been living without a green paper since his tarjeta de residencia expired a few years ago.
> 
> He still gets health care, still has his kids in school and still can buy vehicles, work, and do whatever else I do.
> 
> His ethos is that the green form does nothing for him so why bother. I can see his point.
> 
> I do realise, by the way, that if he were a new immigrant he probably wouldn't be able to do this.


I use my certifcate twice a year, to go on and off autonomo. I tried to do it last Sept and couldn't go through with the paperwork 'cos I forgotten the blummin' certificate. Apart from that I think I used it in the bank once and nothing else. For ID, 99% of the time they accept my (Spanish) driving licence which is so much easier to carry around. So I can understand your German colleague. The only thing is, if you're going to do anything with the bank, the police, or other "official" places like Seg Soc, INEM etc you'll need that stupid certificate. You can argue all you like that it's illegal but they will not hear you


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## Pesky Wesky

gus-lopez said:


> There is no requirement to actually register. They can fine you for failing to APPLY to register , which is the offence, but being unable to fulfil there requirements to register does not mean they can ask you to leave.


Gus I've just glanced through the link you gave in number 39 and saw this on page 5



> 12) For periods of residence of longer than three months, Member States should have the
> possibility to require Union citizens to register with the competent authorities in the place of
> residence, attested by a registration certificate issued to that effect.


Haven't seen anything about renewing, but acording to this yes, we do have to register


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> I use my certifcate twice a year, to go on and off autonomo. I tried to do it last Sept and couldn't go through with the paperwork 'cos I forgotten the blummin' certificate. Apart from that I think I used it in the bank once and nothing else. For ID, 99% of the time they accept my (Spanish) driving licence which is so much easier to carry around. So I can understand your German colleague. The only thing is, if you're going to do anything with the bank, the police, or other "official" places like Seg Soc, INEM etc you'll need that stupid certificate. You can argue all you like that it's illegal but they will not hear you


& that's the crux of the matter

they say it's obligatory - they 'require it'....but as EU citizens, we can stay as long as we like, unless as gus says, we do something dreadful & get deported

but although some long term residents will be fine without renewing or even registering in the first place, most people _will _need that certificate for something at some stage

if I have time later I'll look for a post I made a few weeks ago - but briefly, an acquaintance of mine had a visit from the police - they wanted to know why they were on the padrón if they weren't registered as resident - they were given 10 days to 'get their papers in order'

of course, they couldn't have been thrown out of the country - & they got everything sorted in time - but it scared the life out of them


another friend had a visit from the police a while back - they wanted to know why they weren't registered as resident too & declaring for tax - somethimg else they had done had triggered something on some computer somewhere


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## baldilocks

We changed our car a couple of weeks ago and to register the car in our name and at our address, the green residency certificate was needed by DGT.


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## Overandout

baldilocks said:


> We changed our car a couple of weeks ago and to register the car in our name and at our address, the green residency certificate was needed by DGT.


Amazing isn't it. Last year I bought a car and all I presented for my ID was my old style paper driving licence...


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## gus-lopez

Pesky , yes they require you to register but if you don't they cannot throw you out & the fine is for failing to register , not for not being registered. 
Once you have been here 5 years you attain permanent status automatically , although you can apply for a certificate which is the registration on the EU citizens list. ( Certificado de Registro de Ciudadano de la Union ) Once registered there is NO renewal . Ever.

Permanent residence document

This is different from the registration certificate which is compulsory in many countries. The permanent residence document is not compulsory. It confirms your right to live in the country where you now live permanently, without any conditions.

This means that the authorities may no longer require you to prove that you have a job, sufficient resources, health insurance, and so on. The permanent residence document can be handy when dealing with the authorities or for administrative formalities.

If you ask the authorities for a permanent residence document, they must issue it as soon as possible and for no more than nationals pay for identity cards. If they do not, you can call on our assistance service.

The document should be valid indefinitely and does not have to be renewed. 

From here;

EU – Residence rights when working in another EU country - Your Europe        

P.S. Once you have been in a country for more than 10 years it is virtually impossible to be removed. The only reason would be national security.


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## snikpoh

gus-lopez said:


> Pesky , yes they require you to register but if you don't they cannot throw you out & the fine is for failing to register , not for not being registered.
> Once you have been here 5 years you attain permanent status automatically , although you can apply for a certificate which is the registration on the EU citizens list. ( Certificado de Registro de Ciudadano de la Union ) Once registered there is NO renewal . Ever.
> 
> Permanent residence document
> 
> This is different from the registration certificate which is compulsory in many countries. The permanent residence document is not compulsory. It confirms your right to live in the country where you now live permanently, without any conditions.
> 
> This means that the authorities may no longer require you to prove that you have a job, sufficient resources, health insurance, and so on. The permanent residence document can be handy when dealing with the authorities or for administrative formalities.
> 
> If you ask the authorities for a permanent residence document, they must issue it as soon as possible and for no more than nationals pay for identity cards. If they do not, you can call on our assistance service.
> 
> The document should be valid indefinitely and does not have to be renewed.
> 
> From here;
> 
> EU – Residence rights when working in another EU country - Your Europe********
> 
> P.S. Once you have been in a country for more than 10 years it is virtually impossible to be removed. The only reason would be national security.



Can you give the correct, Spanish, terms for the 2 different documents please.

The link you provided mentions workers and pensioners as though those are the only categories - what if you're neither of those?

Finally, who does one ask for this permanent document? Is it the Extranjero office again? 

Thanks


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## JaneyO

That link to the Eu website is very useful, have printed it out in English and Spanish, the latter will be useful in case of argument! It is very clear. I am wondering if anyone has tried to get one of these recently and did they try to ask for income etc details, as the EU document is very clear they cannot do this. Am tempted to get one in case Britain leaves the EU, but would like to know how easy it actually is?


----------



## gus-lopez

snikpoh said:


> Can you give the correct, Spanish, terms for the 2 different documents please.
> 
> The link you provided mentions workers and pensioners as though those are the only categories - what if you're neither of those?
> 
> Finally, who does one ask for this permanent document? Is it the Extranjero office again?
> 
> Thanks


The first reg. cert. & the permanent cert. have the same title. The difference is that the first registration one states that you are registered from such & such date & the permanent reg. cert. states that you are a permanent resident in Spain from the datethat you first ever registered.

People who are neither worker or pensioner are required to have income, & private health care if first registering after April 24th 20012. It is in the full health care laws.

Yes it is obtained from the oficina de extranjeros.


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## gus-lopez

Pesky Wesky said:


> As for asking for the hojas, I suppose you mean las hojas de reclamación, in the police station when getting the certificate and never knowing whether you're doing everything by the book because they're always moving the goal posts, well personally I wouldn't want to rock the boat.  And imagine someone doing it without a good level of Spanish. They'd make mincemeat out of him.


Just remembered this. I can appreciate what you are saying but people shouldn't be put off using them . There is no requirement to be able to speak Spanish to using them They are In Spanish & English at the very least. There is no restriction on making the complaint in English or any other language.

This is a Valencian one which, obviously is in Valenciano  along with Castellano & English.

Google Image Result for http://www.omic-benissa.es/galeria/hoja20de20reclamaciones.jpg

Googling photos ,I suppose it must depend on regions & nationality of foreigners as the northern ones appear to also include French & Basque obviously & those around Madrid , Castellon etc; have German as well. 


hojas de reclamación - Google Search


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## Pesky Wesky

gus-lopez said:


> The first reg. cert. & the permanent cert. have the same title. The difference is that the first registration one states that you are registered from such & such date & the permanent reg. cert. states that you are a permanent resident in Spain from the datethat you first ever registered.
> 
> People who are neither worker or pensioner are required to have income, & private health care if first registering after April 24th 20012. It is in the full health care laws.
> 
> Yes it is obtained from the oficina de extranjeros.


Hi Gus, Stravinsky, everyone,
Sorry to be asking so many questions, but, even though I appreciate that throwing me out would be very difficult (perhaps they could cite obsessive posting on a certain forum as behaviour likely to cause national concern ) I would feel happier knowing what paper I've got and what its ramifications are.
Sooo my certificate says 
La persona que a continuación se indica, ha solicitado y obtenido *su inscripción en el Registro Central de Extranjeros de la Dirección General de la Policía y de la Guardia Civil*, como residente comunitario con carácter permanente en España, desde blabla bla (The date) (their part in bold, not mine).
So there's that word *permanente*, so I understand that I don't, until further notice, have to get this renewed.
But, all it means is that I'm on the foreigners list permanently. It doesn't give me any special satus, only that I don't have to renew this piece of paper.
Is that right?

And then Gus, you said


> If you ask the authorities for a permanent residence document, they must issue it as soon as possible and for no more than nationals pay for identity cards. If they do not, you can call on our assistance service.


So you're part of the EU solvit organisation?


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## Stravinsky

I think people are maybe getting a bit confused here ... I know I am.

The bottom line is .... that irrespective of EU regulations, if Spanish law _does_ say that your residence certificate is going to be renewed every 5 years, 10 years ... whatever, that's the law you have to respect. If you want to appeal to the EU then thats what you will have to do.

We all know that EU licences are quite acceptable in Spain, but we also know that when you are stopped in the street some Police will tell you it's not.

The Valencian Land Grab was completely against EU laws, and they fined Spain ... but they kept doing it!

Its a confusing place to live, Spain

Maybe someone ought to write to David Searle because you would think that one of the biggest banks in Spain and a supposed expert on things Spanish would think twice about publishing something incorrect ... but hey, what do I know


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## Pesky Wesky

Stravinsky said:


> I think people are maybe getting a bit confused here ... I know I am.
> 
> The bottom line is .... that irrespective of EU regulations, if Spanish law _does_ say that your residence certificate is going to be renewed every 5 years, 10 years ... whatever, that's the law you have to respect. If you want to appeal to the EU then thats what you will have to do.
> Yes, I agree with this and this is what I was saying in a previous post. Imagine - you want to buy a car - sales person says you need the certificate. You can argue all you like that it's against EU law, but until you get the certificate you will not get the car. Later you might want to appeal...
> BUT nobody seems to be able to find a reference to this renewal business, on any official page - not even the ministry. This is not to say it doesn't exist. If it has been modified it should be in the BOE for example, but I haven't got enough strength to go through that ATM!!
> We all know that EU licences are quite acceptable in Spain, but we also know that when you are stopped in the street some Police will tell you it's not.
> 
> The Valencian Land Grab was completely against EU laws, and they fined Spain ... but they kept doing it!
> Absolutely!
> Its a confusing place to live, Spain
> 
> Maybe someone ought to write to David Searle because you would think that one of the biggest banks in Spain and a supposed expert on things Spanish would think twice about publishing something incorrect ... but hey, what do I know
> You would have thought so, but judging from what you said in another post, this was a reply to a letter from someone who thought his advice in another article was incorrect. I suppose incorrect because the law changed.


***


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## Guest

Hi
It took us just an hour to renew our residencia. Getting in the queue in early helps. It is not the photo card anymore. It just has your basic details on it. The new card, if you can call it that, has no time limit. The old style had to be renewed every 5 years, but not now. They never asked any questions, they just dealt with the paperwork.


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## Pesky Wesky

Stravinsky said:


> Maybe someone ought to write to David Searle because you would think that one of the biggest banks in Spain and a supposed expert on things Spanish would think twice about publishing something incorrect ... but hey, what do I know


Do you have a contact email for the magazine, or for the great man himself??


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## Pesky Wesky

Tejeda said:


> Hi
> It took us just an hour to renew our residencia. Getting in the queue in early helps. It is not the photo card anymore. It just has your basic details on it. The new card, if you can call it that, has no time limit. The old style had to be renewed every 5 years, but not now. They never asked any questions, they just dealt with the paperwork.


Thank you Tejada,

This is the whole point. Many of us have been told we don't need to renew our certificado, which as you say is not a card and in fact does not serve the same purpose as the card which has not been used for several years now. However, it appears the law has changed and we are talking about the supposed change.


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## Overandout

Stravinsky said:


> Maybe someone ought to write to David Searle because you would think that one of the biggest banks in Spain and a supposed expert on things Spanish would think twice about publishing something incorrect ... but hey, what do I know


To be fair to Mr Searle, he may not be wrong, its just that we can't find the source for his information. As has been said already, Spain is not necessarily applying EU law correctly.

I have already told you that here in Madrid they have given me "flase" information about renewal and with the link posted by Gus it would seem that there were further inaccuracies:

We asked about the validity of permanent residency in the event of leaving SPain and later trying to come back, and we were told that after 18 months away even permanent residency elapses, but according to the EU that period is 2 years.

This is irrelevant to me anyway as I intend to be away for longer, but its just another example of Spain (or its funcionarios) doing or saying whatever they like !


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## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> To be fair to Mr Searle, he may not be wrong, its just that we can't find the source for his information. As has been said already, Spain is not necessarily applying EU law correctly.
> 
> I have already told you that here in Madrid they have given me "flase" information about renewal and with the link posted by Gus it would seem that there were further inaccuracies:
> 
> We asked about the validity of permanent residency in the event of leaving SPain and later trying to come back, and we were told that after 18 months away even permanent residency elapses, but according to the EU that period is 2 years.
> 
> This is irrelevant to me anyway as I intend to be away for longer, but its just another example of Spain (or its funcionarios) doing or saying whatever they like !


I think Mr. Searl is probably right, he usually is, but I find it annoying that we don't have access to this information, and think that he should have quoted the pertinent legislation in the article. As I said, it's probably in the BOE, in fact it must be.
I do sympathise with the civil servants (to a certain degree). They often have less information than we do. For example, when Seg Soc computerised everything the person that we spoke to didn't know it was up and fuctioning! I have no reason to believe that she was of below average intelligence, they just hadn't been informed, nor had they been given any training. The same with this. The laws exist, but are open to interpretation, and so of course this leads to differences between comunidades and even from office to office or civil servant to civil servant.
I had noticed what you say about being out of the country. It seems to fluctuate.
What is "flase"?


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> What is "flase"?


a typo??


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> a typo??


Very possibly, but for what?? Sorry I can't work it out. 
It's t o o e a r l y y y y y!!!!!!!


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Very possibly, but for what?? Sorry I can't work it out.
> It's t o o e a r l y y y y y!!!!!!!


you should see a FB message I sent someone before my coffee this morning - I _think_ he'll be able to work it out.....



I think maybe the typo gave a bit of false info


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> you should see a FB message I sent someone before my coffee this morning - I _think_ he'll be able to work it out.....
> 
> 
> 
> I think maybe the typo gave a bit of false info


Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
I just couldn't get there.
Sorry


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## Overandout

Whoops, 

Yes, I meant "false"....

Too early !


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## Stravinsky

@Pesky wesky

The Writer of the letter had indeed picked that up, but I think that was (as I mentioned) because the Governments stance had changed since his previous article / comments

So who knows, it might all change again
You can email Sabadell Mag at [email protected] ... The note says that David Searle is happy to anser anyones questions


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## gus-lopez

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hi Gus, Stravinsky, everyone,
> Sorry to be asking so many questions, but, even though I appreciate that throwing me out would be very difficult (perhaps they could cite obsessive posting on a certain forum as behaviour likely to cause national concern ) I would feel happier knowing what paper I've got and what its ramifications are.
> Sooo my certificate says
> La persona que a continuación se indica, ha solicitado y obtenido *su inscripción en el Registro Central de Extranjeros de la Dirección General de la Policía y de la Guardia Civil*, como residente comunitario con carácter permanente en España, desde blabla bla (The date) (their part in bold, not mine).
> So there's that word *permanente*, so I understand that I don't, until further notice, have to get this renewed.
> But, all it means is that I'm on the foreigners list permanently. It doesn't give me any special satus, only that I don't have to renew this piece of paper.
> Is that right?
> 
> And then Gus, you said
> So you're part of the EU solvit organisation?


Yes the certificate that you have requires no renewal.

No I am not part of Solvit . ( Wish I was : Do they get paid ?  )

This quote from the link should have been in question marks . 

""Permanent residence document""

"This is different from the registration certificate which is compulsory in many countries. The permanent residence document is not compulsory. It confirms your right to live in the country where you now live permanently, without any conditions.

This means that the authorities may no longer require you to prove that you have a job, sufficient resources, health insurance, and so on. The permanent residence document can be handy when dealing with the authorities or for administrative formalities.

If you ask the authorities for a permanent residence document, they must issue it as soon as possible and for no more than nationals pay for identity cards. If they do not, you can call on our assistance service.

The document should be valid indefinitely and does not have to be renewed."

Sorry about that.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

gus-lopez said:


> Yes the certificate that you have requires no renewal.
> 
> No I am not part of Solvit . ( Wish I was : Do they get paid ?  )
> 
> This quote from the link should have been in question marks .
> 
> ""Permanent residence document""
> 
> "This is different from the registration certificate which is compulsory in many countries. The permanent residence document is not compulsory. It confirms your right to live in the country where you now live permanently, without any conditions.
> 
> This means that the authorities may no longer require you to prove that you have a job, sufficient resources, health insurance, and so on. The permanent residence document can be handy when dealing with the authorities or for administrative formalities.
> 
> If you ask the authorities for a permanent residence document, they must issue it as soon as possible and for no more than nationals pay for identity cards. If they do not, you can call on our assistance service.
> 
> The document should be valid indefinitely and does not have to be renewed."
> 
> Sorry about that.


No problem Gus. It's just that, as I'm sure you appreciate, it's quite a complex subject, everyone's cirumstances are different, and I just wanted to check. Hopefully I'll be seeing a gestor that I trust fairly soon and I can ask about this and gaining Spanish nationality. As it stands though, it looks like I'm in quite a good position with that word *permanente* in there, so what would I gain by being Spanish? Being able to vote in National elections and...?


----------



## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> so what would I gain by being Spanish? Being able to vote in National elections and...?



If we take the Solvit page as gospel, people with "permanent residency should enjoy the same privileges as Nationals..." so in theory you can already vote in National elections..... Good luck with that !


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## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> If we take the Solvit page as gospel, people with "permanent residency should enjoy the same privileges as Nationals..." so in theory you can already vote in National elections..... Good luck with that !


Hahahaha!!
Sounds like a good way to waste your time on election day!!
This is another question for David Searl, who I will write to at some time.


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## gus-lopez

Pesky Wesky said:


> No problem Gus. It's just that, as I'm sure you appreciate, it's quite a complex subject, everyone's cirumstances are different, and I just wanted to check. Hopefully I'll be seeing a gestor that I trust fairly soon and I can ask about this and gaining Spanish nationality. As it stands though, it looks like I'm in quite a good position with that word *permanente* in there, so what would I gain by being Spanish? Being able to vote in National elections and...?


What would you gain by Spanish nationality ? 
A 20€ passport . 
No need for a passport to travel anywhere in the EU & EU associated countries as the DNI card is all you need.
A plastic 'Tarjeta' ( DNI ) ! Like we used to have. 

As someone married to a Spanish national it would be quite easy to accomplish.

Even though Spain doesn't recognise dual nationality & you 'renounce' your British nationality , you can still keep the British passport as Britain accepts dual nationality.


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## gus-lopez

Overandout said:


> If we take the Solvit page as gospel, people with "permanent residency should enjoy the same privileges as Nationals..." so in theory you can already vote in National elections..... Good luck with that !


Yes but to vote in any EU country you have to actually be a national. Same in UK.


----------



## baldilocks

gus-lopez said:


> Yes but to vote in any EU country you have to actually be a national. Same in UK.


Sorry but not "national" you have to be a "citizen" for UK - SWMBO is not a National but is a British citizen and had the vote. She has opted to not keep her UK vote here in Spain but I've kept mine.


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## gus-lopez

baldilocks said:


> Sorry but not "national" you have to be a "citizen" for UK - SWMBO is not a National but is a British citizen and had the vote. She has opted to not keep her UK vote here in Spain but I've kept mine.


Apologies, that was what I was trying to say .


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## mike kelly

This income restriction on residency is a way of keeping out certain EU immigrants from eastern european countries. What other reason could there be for it?


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## snikpoh

mike kelly said:


> This income restriction on residency is a way of keeping out certain EU immigrants from eastern european countries. What other reason could there be for it?


Maybe, but the main reason is to make sure that you can fend for yourself and your family without being a burden on the Spanish state.

By proving that you have a job, have sufficient funds in a Spanish bank or have regular payments into a Spanish bank, you are showing that you will not need to call upon the benefit system (ha, ha!:rofl here in Spain.

Likewise proving that you have health cover.


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## Pesky Wesky

mike kelly said:


> This income restriction on residency is a way of keeping out certain EU immigrants from eastern european countries. What other reason could there be for it?


To keep out people from *any* European country who cannot support themselves ie British people, Germans, French ...


----------



## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> To keep out people from *any* European country who cannot support themselves ie British people, Germans, French ...


That's the politically correct answer yes.

But as I have posted somewhere before, when we asked in Extranjería if we would have to go through these checks when we return to Spain in X numer of years we were told "no, the financial checks won't apply to you being British, these are in place for people from Romania and places like that..."

Clearly we don't really trust that information, but the fact that a funcionario would tell you that to your face is a little startling...


----------



## gus-lopez

mike kelly said:


> This income restriction on residency is a way of keeping out certain EU immigrants from eastern european countries. What other reason could there be for it?


But how does it keep them out ? It just means that they cannot register for the certificate. They cannot be asked to leave as it is illegal under EU rules. 
They can be fined for failing to apply to register, which is the offence, but what is the point if they have no money ? 
If they do apply & obviously don't get registered as they have no income , etc; they cannot be fined as they have complied with the law by attempting to register. 

At the end of the day you cannot keep them out . End of . That is why the UK & many other countries do not bother with making the registration certificate application , compulsory.


----------



## Megsmum

Pesky Wesky said:


> To keep out people from *any* European country who cannot support themselves ie British people, Germans, French ...


and as it should be. We fully understand that those who have lived and paid into the Spanish system for most of their working life, should not have to fund our residency. It is a shame that here in the UK I appear to be funding every tom dick and harry be they english, romanian ect ect. If they have never contributed or are not contributing why should I pay for them

Rant over
Ill get me coat


----------



## baldilocks

cambio said:


> and as it should be. We fully understand that those who have lived and paid into the Spanish system for most of their working life, should not have to fund our residency. It is a shame that here in the UK I appear to be funding every tom dick and harry be they english, romanian ect ect. If they have never contributed or are not contributing why should I pay for them
> 
> Rant over
> Ill get me coat


It is a matter of different systems. In the UK it is 'residency based' so if you are in UK legitimately (the suegra, once she had been allowed to remain as SWMBO's and my dependant, was given healthcare but no financial benefits) you have access to healthcare and benefits. Spain and many other EU countries have a 'contributions- based' system so you have to either pay into it (or your home country covers the costs) to get anything out.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> That's the politically correct answer yes.
> 
> But as I have posted somewhere before, when we asked in Extranjería if we would have to go through these checks when we return to Spain in X numer of years we were told "no, the financial checks won't apply to you being British, these are in place for people from Romania and places like that..."
> 
> Clearly we don't really trust that information, but the fact that a funcionario would tell you that to your face is a little startling...


Well the funcionario is right. There are different laws in place for Romanians, or least there were.
Read this thread. In the second post there are some links referring to this.
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...ain/86930-romanians-required-work-permit.html


----------



## Stravinsky

cambio said:


> and as it should be. We fully understand that those who have lived and paid into the Spanish system for most of their working life, should not have to fund our residency. It is a shame that here in the UK I appear to be funding every tom dick and harry be they english, romanian ect ect. If they have never contributed or are not contributing why should I pay for them
> 
> Rant over
> Ill get me coat


But you cant stop EU citizens coming to Spain to live. Free passage and the right to work where you want. Countries can put up all kinds of barriers but at the end of the day as Gus says, it just ends up that they are not registered on the list as residents, which is a bit ironic


----------



## mike kelly

gus-lopez said:


> But how does it keep them out ? It just means that they cannot register for the certificate. They cannot be asked to leave as it is illegal


Roma are expelled from France on a regular basis.


----------



## Stravinsky

mike kelly said:


> Roma are expelled from France on a regular basis.


Wikipedia

_Some member states of the EU require Bulgarians and Romanians to acquire a permit to work, whilst members of all other member states do not require one. Currently, 16 member states allow Bulgarians and Romanians to work without a permit. *Currently only 8 countries keep the restrictions,* which include Germany, Austria, *France,* Luxembourg, Belgium, the Netherlands, Malta and United Kingdom.* In addition, Spain keeps work restrictions only for Romanian citizens. Restrictions may remain in place until 1 January 2014 – 7 years after their accession*_


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Stravinsky said:


> But you cant stop EU citizens coming to Spain to live. Free passage and the right to work where you want. Countries can put up all kinds of barriers but at the end of the day as Gus says, it just ends up that they are not registered on the list as residents, which is a bit ironic


And these restrictions will make it almost impossible for new Romanian immigrants to live here, just because they are not able to register. They may be able to argue their case in the European Court, but that is of little use to the Romanian who wants to open a bank account/ get a job/ buy a car today in Spain now.


----------



## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well the funcionario is right. There are different laws in place for Romanians, or least there were.
> Read this thread. In the second post there are some links referring to this.
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...ain/86930-romanians-required-work-permit.html


Not really.

Yes, there are different regulations in force for Romanians / Bulgarians in Spain, as we are discussing here now.
But that doesn't mean that the financial checks for registration don't apply to me because I'm British !


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> Not really.
> 
> Yes, there are different regulations in force for Romanians / Bulgarians in Spain, as we are discussing here now.
> But that doesn't mean that the financial checks for registration don't apply to me because I'm British !


ahhh, no!


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## Stravinsky

Overandout said:


> Not really.
> 
> Yes, there are different regulations in force for Romanians / Bulgarians in Spain, as we are discussing here now.
> But that doesn't mean that the financial checks for registration don't apply to me because I'm British !


OK, but what do you think will happen if you dont provide the financial check details?


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## Overandout

Stravinsky said:


> OK, but what do you think will happen if you dont provide the financial check details?


To be honest, I am selfishly only thinking of my own case, and given that I have a flat in Madrid on which I certainly hope to keep up with my mortgage payments while I am away, I'm hoping that they'll find it difficult to deny me the right to re-register upon my return, even if I don't have a job to go to.

Before I leave I will apply for permanent registration (despite the fact that it theoretically lapses after 18 mths / 2 yrs living away from Spain), so that could also help.

I will likely be away for a minimum of 3 years, so the rules could have changed by then anyway.

There's only so much planning I can do so far in advance....


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## dave1954

*Am I doing things right*

Am I doing things right, I came to work here in Spain in 2004 and work sorted all the paperwork with me in tow not really knowing what it was all about. I am on my third resident certificate and this one I obtained myself with the help of my father in law who is Spanish, as I got married to a Spanish citizen last year and have retired and bought a flat here. Am I legal as I an not so sure having read all the replies on here ? In the past I got a photo I'd card but only have a paper certificate now.




Stravinsky said:


> There's been a little bit of confusion on this, since the new rules applied regarding proving income etc.
> 
> I've just read an article by David Searle which was published in this months Prestige Magazine by BancoSabadell
> 
> It appears that the Government have taken the view (against EU regulations) that the Certificate of Registration that is issued has to be renewed every 5 years, and that when you renew it you have to satisfy the new rules regarding income. The Government had originally said that current holders of the certificate would not be affected, but they have changed their minds.
> 
> It seems, as usual, as residents here we have to abide by Spanish rules on this, with the option that we can appeal to the EU. It appears that many already have done so as it is incompatible with EU Directive 2004/38 which abolishes residence permits for EU citizens and the Spanish Royal Decree 240/2007 which transposes the Directive into Spanish law
> 
> So ...... that would be another two day trip to the local Police station here as now (according to reports) you have to go one day to queue to get an appointment for the following day, and a second day to queue just to be seen


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## dave1954

*Am I doing things right*

Am I doing things right, I came to work here in Spain in 2004 and work sorted all the paperwork with me in tow not really knowing what it was all about. I am on my third resident certificate and this one I obtained myself with the help of my father in law who is Spanish, as I got married to a Spanish citizen last year and have retired and bought a flat here. Am I legal as I an not so sure having read all the replies on here ? In the past I got a photo I'd card but only have a paper certificate now. Every thing is so complicated here, and there is no need for it.




Stravinsky said:


> There's been a little bit of confusion on this, since the new rules applied regarding proving income etc.
> 
> I've just read an article by David Searle which was published in this months Prestige Magazine by BancoSabadell
> 
> It appears that the Government have taken the view (against EU regulations) that the Certificate of Registration that is issued has to be renewed every 5 years, and that when you renew it you have to satisfy the new rules regarding income. The Government had originally said that current holders of the certificate would not be affected, but they have changed their minds.
> 
> It seems, as usual, as residents here we have to abide by Spanish rules on this, with the option that we can appeal to the EU. It appears that many already have done so as it is incompatible with EU Directive 2004/38 which abolishes residence permits for EU citizens and the Spanish Royal Decree 240/2007 which transposes the Directive into Spanish law
> 
> So ...... that would be another two day trip to the local Police station here as now (according to reports) you have to go one day to queue to get an appointment for the following day, and a second day to queue just to be seen


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## xabiaxica

dave1954 said:


> Am I doing things right, I came to work here in Spain in 2004 and work sorted all the paperwork with me in tow not really knowing what it was all about. I am on my third resident certificate and this one I obtained myself with the help of my father in law who is Spanish, as I got married to a Spanish citizen last year and have retired and bought a flat here. Am I legal as I an not so sure having read all the replies on here ? In the past I got a photo I'd card but only have a paper certificate now. Every thing is so complicated here, and there is no need for it.


they stopped issuing the cards quite a few years ago now, & you get a green certificate - so yes, if that's what you have you're doing everything right


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## baldilocks

xabiachica said:


> they stopped issuing the cards quite a few years ago now, & you get a green certificate - so yes, if that's what you have you're doing everything right


Unless you are a non-EU citizen in which case you get a card (the suegra got a card - she is Texan). However, I did hear that in some areas they have started issuing cards again.


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## xabiaxica

baldilocks said:


> Unless you are a non-EU citizen in which case you get a card (the suegra got a card - she is Texan). However, I did hear that in some areas they have started issuing cards again.


very true - but I was answering someone with a UK flag 


yes, some areas are issuing a sort of card to EU citizens - it's a credit-card sized bit of flimsy card plasticised on one side

& no photo - so no good as ID


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## snikpoh

xabiachica said:


> very true - but I was answering someone with a UK flag
> 
> 
> yes, some areas are issuing a sort of card to EU citizens - it's a credit-card sized bit of flimsy card plasticised on one side
> 
> & no photo - so no good as ID




Nope! In some areas they have photos on them - I've seen one issued late last year to someone from UK.


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## xabiaxica

snikpoh said:


> Nope! In some areas they have photos on them - I've seen one issued late last year to someone from UK.


really?

that would almost be worth getting a new one for - I can't find my res. cert....


my NIE is on my SIP card though, so if ever anyone wants it I just get the SIP out of my purse - they're more than happy with that!


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## Stravinsky

xabiachica said:


> really?
> 
> that would almost be worth getting a new one for - I can't find my res. cert....
> 
> 
> my NIE is on my SIP card though, so if ever anyone wants it I just get the SIP out of my purse - they're more than happy with that!


Another question I asked the gestor when I was there. When my certificate needs renewing (alledgedly 5 years) it will be replaced with a card. No photo, just a scaled down and truncated certificate type thing


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## dave1954

Wish I had a card again as it made life here so much more simple. I still use my old card at the supermarket and as yet I have not had a problem.


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## Stravinsky

dave1954 said:


> Wish I had a card again as it made life here so much more simple. I still use my old card at the supermarket and as yet I have not had a problem.


Yes but your new one wont be a photographic ID
I always use my UK driving licence and it's accepted everywhere apart from tax, town hall etc


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## baldilocks

Stravinsky said:


> Yes but your new one wont be a photographic ID
> I always use my UK driving licence and it's accepted everywhere apart from tax, town hall etc


I use my Spanish Driving Licence which is an official ID


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## Stravinsky

baldilocks said:


> I use my Spanish Driving Licence which is an official ID


Mines bigger than yours


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## dave1954

I lost my resident certificate, before applying for my last one, I had to make a declaration at the national police station before I could get a new certificate.


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## snikpoh

Stravinsky said:


> Yes but your new one wont be a photographic ID
> I always use my UK driving licence and it's accepted everywhere apart from tax, town hall etc


As I said previously (#95) - it might! Just depends where you are I suspect.


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## Stravinsky

snikpoh said:


> As I said previously (#95) - it might! Just depends where you are I suspect.


Yes I agree, but all I am telling you is what the official line is. How it gets interpreted in the various police stations and town halls across the land is clearly going to be a different thing altogether


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## CapnBilly

Stravinsky said:


> Another question I asked the gestor when I was there. When my certificate needs renewing (alledgedly 5 years) it will be replaced with a card. No photo, just a scaled down and truncated certificate type thing


There was article in the costa Blanca News yesterday about renewing your certificate.

"OVER the past weeks Costa Blanca News has received a number of enquiries from readers who have been told that the EU citizens registration certificate, which previously had no expiry date, must now be renewed every five years.

After contacting the British Embassy in Madrid, CBNews has been informed that there have been no changes to the new residence requirements that came into effect in July 2012."


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## Stravinsky

CapnBilly said:


> There was article in the costa Blanca News yesterday about renewing your certificate.
> 
> "OVER the past weeks Costa Blanca News has received a number of enquiries from readers who have been told that the EU citizens registration certificate, which previously had no expiry date, must now be renewed every five years.
> 
> After contacting the British Embassy in Madrid, CBNews has been informed that there have been no changes to the new residence requirements that came into effect in July 2012."


Thats what I mean you see ........ someone who makes their living out of such things has heard one thing, and the British Embassy has heard another (nothing)


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## xabiaxica

Stravinsky said:


> Thats what I mean you see ........ someone who makes their living out of such things has heard one thing, and the British Embassy has heard another (nothing)


 GIFSoup


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## Stravinsky

xabiachica said:


> GIFSoup


Yes, I do feel like Zebedee sometimes, bouncing around from pillar to post!!!


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## xabiaxica

Stravinsky said:


> Yes, I do feel like Zebedee sometimes, bouncing around from pillar to post!!!



hmm - does that make me Florence or Ermintrude


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## baldilocks

Stravinsky said:


> Yes, I do feel like Zebedee sometimes, bouncing around from pillar to post!!!


I guess that makes me Mr Rusty


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## Overandout

I am NOT being Brian , again.....


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## gus-lopez

" Time for bed " said Zebedee.


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## Guest

The asset reporting law has always existed for residents, the only difference now, the tax man is going to get tough. It is the same in the UK and has been for years. I see no problem. We have paid our taxes in Spain for years and are very well away of the tax implications both in Spain and the UK.


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## Stravinsky

Tejeda said:


> The asset reporting law has always existed for residents, the only difference now, the tax man is going to get tough. It is the same in the UK and has been for years. I see no problem. We have paid our taxes in Spain for years and are very well away of the tax implications both in Spain and the UK.


Then you are maybe missing the point.
Ive been paying taxes in Spain as well, a tax return put in every year since we have been here. The tax reporting you mention is actually a new decree, not something old. The necessity before was to declare wealth tax on your worldwide assets, but because the allowance was so high it hardly applied to most ex pats

The underlying worry is what the desperate Spanish Government is going to do with that information. I would add, its not just a case of declaring that you have, say, €50k of shares. You have to list the individual registration numbers, the values (at 31 December 2012) of those assets, the full address of your property, the value of insurance policies (that actually have no value at all unless you die), and (arguably) the value of pension pots that have no monetary value until you turn them eventually into annuities. Bank account details as well with full IBAN and bank details. Its very detailed and very specific

I suppose it doesn't concern people that much that don't have such assets, but for those that do its an added concern for the future


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## CapnBilly

Stravinsky said:


> the value of insurance policies (that actually have no value at all unless you die),


As far as I can see you don't have to declare life policies (assuming that's what you mean)


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## Stravinsky

CapnBilly said:


> As far as I can see you don't have to declare life policies (assuming that's what you mean)


I would like to think you are right


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## JaneyO

Stravinsky said:


> Then you are maybe missing the point.
> Ive been paying taxes in Spain as well, a tax return put in every year since we have been here. The tax reporting you mention is actually a new decree, not something old. The necessity before was to declare wealth tax on your worldwide assets, but because the allowance was so high it hardly applied to most ex pats
> 
> The underlying worry is what the desperate Spanish Government is going to do with that information. I would add, its not just a case of declaring that you have, say, €50k of shares. You have to list the individual registration numbers, the values (at 31 December 2012) of those assets, the full address of your property, the value of insurance policies (that actually have no value at all unless you die), and (arguably) the value of pension pots that have no monetary value until you turn them eventually into annuities. Bank account details as well with full IBAN and bank details. Its very detailed and very specific
> 
> I suppose it doesn't concern people that much that don't have such assets, but for those that do its an added concern for the future


 I am certainly worried, not that I have anything illegal to hide but about what is going to happen to this information. If they are not going to do anything with it why do they need such specific details as IBAn numbers. How secure is this information likely to be? Seems to me anyone who has sight of it - or hacks into it- can clean out my bank account. We are told to keep our banking information very secure against fraud, now it is going to be 'out there' for heaven knows who to see, Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.


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## gus-lopez

JaneyO said:


> I am certainly worried, not that I have anything illegal to hide but about what is going to happen to this information. If they are not going to do anything with it why do they need such specific details as IBAn numbers. How secure is this information likely to be? Seems to me anyone who has sight of it - or hacks into it- can clean out my bank account. We are told to keep our banking information very secure against fraud, now it is going to be 'out there' for heaven knows who to see, Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.


As I have posted before. Would I knowingly & of sound mine post up all that info, online, to a Russian 'sales' site ? Not if I have an ounce of common -sense, so why would I post it to a Spanish government site , all of which throw up insecure/untrusted warnings every time you wish to access them. I don't think so.


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## JaneyO

Exactly! So what are we supposed to do, if we don't comply the penalties are horrendous if we get found out. EIther the fraudsters clean us out or the Spanish Government do. I don't know what to do.


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## Overandout

This will be like any audit based assessment:

Those that have reported something will be investigated to the last cent to try to find something wrong, a liability.

Those that report nothing and say nothing will largely be left alone except for the "unlucky few" who may get caught out and will suffer the horrendous consequences.

What I am worried about, more than the confidentiality of the information, is where the burden of proof will lie.

For example: 

If Mr X moved to Spain in 2010 with savings already in a UK bank generating interest did not declared the income on the investment until 2012 when he moved the money to a new account, it is clear that he will owe the back tax for the interest gained in the previous undeclared account (ignoring the fact that it may have been taxed at source in the UK).

But, what interest rate will be taken to calculate the interest? How will the Spanish authorities decide in what type of account that money was held between 2010 and 2012? Is Mr X obliged to provide details of the previous accounts also?

Alternatively, if Mr X had no savings when he moved in 2010 but sold his property for 100,000 pounds in 2012, how will the authorities prove this? 

What if Mr X simply says that the money was being kept in a suitcase by a friend of his since 2009, and hence provided no income to have to declare and that he simply opened an account for the money in 2012? How will the authorities prove how Mr X first obtained this money?

This could get quite messy in my opinion as the law could in theory oblige you to disclose information of financial activity, even before becoming a Spanish tax resident, which I think is wrong and possibly even illegal.


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## Stravinsky

JaneyO said:


> Exactly! So what are we supposed to do, if we don't comply the penalties are horrendous if we get found out. EIther the fraudsters clean us out or the Spanish Government do. I don't know what to do.


Take steps to ensure you are no longer a Spanish tax resident. That seems to be the only way.

Or risk not telling them

Simples


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## baldilocks

It will only concern you plutocrats. For us poor OAPs...


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## Overandout

:focus:

As this thread was initially about registration in the guiri list, I thought that I'd let you know that I have got an appointment next Monday to try to turn my (arguably) temporary certificate into a permanent one....

I'll let you all know what hoops they ask me to jump through and if I am succesful or not !


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## JaneyO

Wish you the very best of luck, look forward to hearing how you get on.


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## Overandout

Well, I now am a permanent resident in Spain!

The process was very easy (except for the fact that we had our “cita previa” at 10:45 and were attended at 12:30…

No income checks, no questions about health care provisions. The guy corrected the errors in my old green certificate (which stated that I had resided in Spain since only 2006 which is not true).

I now have the little green useless card with the all important “residente comunitario permanente” in writing, instead of the old useless big A4 sheet!

I certainly hope that this will make returning to Spain a bit easier that’s if my move to Asia ever comes about, and if not it can’t do me any harm.


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## Megsmum

pleased for you.


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## andy01

*Confused as I can be*

Hello, 

Just need a bit of advise. I have read so many posts about the 'new' residency rules (or register rules). I have been living in spain for 10 years now and have an old (expired 2008) residency photo card. At the time it was due for renewal I was told not to bother renewing it post the 2007 legislation so I never bothered. Towards the end of last year I was looking at changing my back account to a residents account so started to look into 'renewing' my residency. I went to my local office with only the form, the old residency card and my passport. The office didn't mention anything about my card being so out of date, all they asked for were photocopies and a padron. So, a couple of months have passed and I have finally got my padron so will return to the office this week to apply for the new residency permit. 

After reading so many posts I am fully expecting them to refuse based on the fact that I cannot prove an income at this time and have no health insurance (something I will be looking into though). This does not worry me because according to what I have read after 5 years I am already considered a permanent resident according to EU legislation. 

So, my question relates to the fact that you can only be fined for failing to apply. When I apply and fail (sounds defeatist I know!) how can I then prove I have tried if ever I got asked by the authorities? Can they give me a piece of paper or something advising when I tried to apply (using my still pigeon spanish to ask for it!? 

Thanks in advance

Andy


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## xabiaxica

f


andy01 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Just need a bit of advise. I have read so many posts about the 'new' residency rules (or register rules). I have been living in spain for 10 years now and have an old (expired 2008) residency photo card. At the time it was due for renewal I was told not to bother renewing it post the 2007 legislation so I never bothered. Towards the end of last year I was looking at changing my back account to a residents account so started to look into 'renewing' my residency. I went to my local office with only the form, the old residency card and my passport. The office didn't mention anything about my card being so out of date, all they asked for were photocopies and a padron. So, a couple of months have passed and I have finally got my padron so will return to the office this week to apply for the new residency permit.
> 
> After reading so many posts I am fully expecting them to refuse based on the fact that I cannot prove an income at this time and have no health insurance (something I will be looking into though). This does not worry me because according to what I have read after 5 years I am already considered a permanent resident according to EU legislation.
> 
> So, my question relates to the fact that you can only be fined for failing to apply. When I apply and fail (sounds defeatist I know!) how can I then prove I have tried if ever I got asked by the authorities? Can they give me a piece of paper or something advising when I tried to apply (using my still pigeon spanish to ask for it!?
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Andy


:welcome:

interesting question.....

yes, in theory you should be considered a permanent resident - if you can prove that you were here...............

if when your old resident card expired, you had re-registered there wouldn't be a problem - or if you'd been doing tax returns here - but I suspect you might have problems proving it if you haven't (I'm assuming that's the case since you say _'I was looking at changing my back account to a residents account' _)


I have no idea if they will give you something to prove that you have applied & failed - but apart from the health insurance issue (which is easy enough to rectify) why would you think you'd be refused?

surely you must have some income/funds from somewhere? If you can prove funds (as little as 5000€ has been reported as the requirement) then I'd be amazed if you were refused

on the other hand they might simply accept your old card as proof - & you'll be issued the new green card/paper...............


you don't say when you last went - the new rules only came into effect last September


----------



## snikpoh

andy01 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Just need a bit of advise. I have read so many posts about the 'new' residency rules (or register rules). I have been living in spain for 10 years now and have an old (expired 2008) residency photo card. At the time it was due for renewal I was told not to bother renewing it post the 2007 legislation so I never bothered. Towards the end of last year I was looking at changing my back account to a residents account so started to look into 'renewing' my residency. I went to my local office with only the form, the old residency card and my passport. The office didn't mention anything about my card being so out of date, all they asked for were photocopies and a padron. So, a couple of months have passed and I have finally got my padron so will return to the office this week to apply for the new residency permit.
> 
> After reading so many posts I am fully expecting them to refuse based on the fact that I cannot prove an income at this time and have no health insurance (something I will be looking into though). This does not worry me because according to what I have read after 5 years I am already considered a permanent resident according to EU legislation.
> 
> So, my question relates to the fact that you can only be fined for failing to apply. When I apply and fail (sounds defeatist I know!) how can I then prove I have tried if ever I got asked by the authorities? Can they give me a piece of paper or something advising when I tried to apply (using my still pigeon spanish to ask for it!?
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Andy


I think you should be fine - should be an automatic renewal. Although, they could argue that as the old one expired some time ago, then you lost your residency!

Presumably, as you have (or had until recently) a non-resident account, then you are not paying tax in Spain? This may cause problems down the line ....


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## andy01

Thanks for the reply. I occasionally earn some income from the UK, never thought it was enough to declare to be honest and certainly not enough to become an autonomo. I am hoping this will change in the future and I will get my financial affairs sorted but for now I don't have a sufficient large sum. 

Originally the only reason I wanted to apply for a residents bank account was because the non residents account seems to charge so much. Apart from that I live in a rented house and don't see what the benefits of me becoming a resident (registered) are. 

I initially went back to the office in November when I was advised to get the padron. Seems like so much has changed since then with all the different posts I have been reading. 

Thanks again for the advise. 

Andy


----------



## xabiaxica

andy01 said:


> Thanks for the reply. I occasionally earn some income from the UK, never thought it was enough to declare to be honest and certainly not enough to become an autonomo. I am hoping this will change in the future and I will get my financial affairs sorted but for now I don't have a sufficient large sum.
> 
> Originally the only reason I wanted to apply for a residents bank account was because the non residents account seems to charge so much. Apart from that I live in a rented house and don't see what the benefits of me becoming a resident (registered) are.
> 
> I initially went back to the office in November when I was advised to get the padron. Seems like so much has changed since then with all the different posts I have been reading.
> 
> Thanks again for the advise.
> 
> Andy


hmm - you do really need to get this sorted one way or the other

if you're living here you have to do tax returns here, even it's a zero return because you have already paid tax on any income (in the UK for example) - presumably you're paying tax in the UK for the income you earn from there? In that case you don't have to pay again - or register as autónomo here necessarily - but a gestor would advise you better than I 



nothing has changed since November - the income & healthcare provision requirement has been in place from Sept 2012

it's a shame you didn't renew your residency sooner & do tax returns all these years - you might find you'd be able to access free state healthcare now - apart from the obvious advantage of cheaper banking which you have already mentioned

that's not the issue though - it's not about there being any benefits to you 'becoming resident' - registration for everyone is a requirement of the govt. & has been since 2007


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## andy01

Thanks for the reply. 

Yes, I do need to get myself sorted out! Well, hopefully the new cert (if I get it!) will be the first step. Would still be interested to know though if I don't how I can prove I have tried. 

Thanks

Andrew


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## andy01

Well just got back from the office and had no major problems. Didn't get asked for any additional information. 

One small problem which in a way is funny. The tasa form I had was for last year and was 10 cents short, so, I was given another tasa form, had to leave, go all the way to the bank and pay the extra 10 cents before returning and then sitting in a q for an hour 

The assistant made a point of telling me the new card was permanent, no need to apply again (wonder how long that will last!

Andy


----------

