# ekWateur



## ToutesDirections

Anyone have experience with this electricity provider and its self-generation plans?


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## BackinFrance

Check with Wikipedia, they are accused of misleading their customers.


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## ToutesDirections

Interesting... for anyone who's curious, here's the Wikipedia linked article. Seems like they + others might have used the wholesale price of electricity as a ceiling in place of the (lower) retail price. I wonder if the small upstart companies might be struggling to survive amidst the drought, heat, and geopolitical chaos in energy markets.

Follow on question: does anyone on this forum have rooftop solar with a feed-in tariff, through any energy provider in France? I'm looking for an equivalent to "net metering" in the US. I'm aware of schemes that have expired and grandfathered in existing systems but I'm interested only in ones accepting new customers and paying them for unused electrons.


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## BackinFrance

They still have an outstanding court process against them, not to mention that a previous court finding that they made customers pay significant costs that were in contravention of the contracts customers had entered into with them according to the French version of Wikipedia. I find that inexcusable.


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## ToutesDirections

BackinFrance said:


> They still have an outstanding court process against them, not to mention that a previous court finding that they made customers pay significant costs that were in contravention of the contracts customers had entered into with them according to the French version of Wikipedia. I find that inexcusable.


Good point, and no one (on this thread) is defending that (alleged) behavior.

If anyone here has a feed-in tariff relationship with a French energy provider, it would be great to hear about it.


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## BackinFrance

I think it would be very difficult to find an energy provider that would offer new private customers a feed-in tariff, at least not one that you would even notice any benefit from, given peaks and troughs in the time of day that solar feeds into the network vs peaks and troughs in energy demand, not to mention local conditions, and the fact that the grid cannot store the electricity that is fed in.


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## ToulouseRob

I don't want to divert the thread, although since there haven't been any replies to the first question posed, perhaps it can be opened up a bit.

This site is quite interesting: Comparateur Fournisseurs Électricité & Gaz

This page is specifically about solar: Installation panneaux solaires : prix, pose et avis

and this page suggests EDF are obliged to pay 20c or 10c per kW for the next 20 years : https://www.hellowatt.fr/panneaux-solaires-photovoltaiques/prix-panneaux-solaires

(the difference depends on whether you sell all your electricity or just the surplus).

We're just at the start of exploring the options so this topic is interesting.


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## BackinFrance

I have been an EDF customer for very many years. I don't have solar panels because my home doesn't lend itself to benefit from them. However I do enjoy an extremely low tarif, without off peak and without limits on my consumption (I can use as much power as I need when I need it) though I do run my dishwasher on an eco cycle during the night. If I had solar and wanted to feed into the grid, that would entail a change in contract and the loss of benefits I currently enjoy. Would it be worth it, tbh I have no idea but I doubt it.

If you want to take advantage of EDF arrangements, I seriously recommend you check on whether you will get a genuine financial benefit. That said, I strongly support green renewable energy, but only when there is a genuine climate change benefit. 

I am also particularly concerned about the viability of EDF going forward, as it appears that EDF will bear virtually all of the costs of transition, including the massive costs associated with nuclear energy. 

Still, it is for each individual to make their own decision, and hopefully it will be a fully informed one.


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## BackinFrance

I would just add that I have absolutely no idea how the US manages all of this, though I have certain concerns regarding real climate change benefits for the community at large.


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## ToulouseRob

Just as a follow-up to my post, and to those of BiF, I _think_ - but am really not sure - that EDF is the sole purchaser of any surplus solar power, and it does not depend on which supplier one has. I _think_ that you can still choose a supplier (we're currently using Alpiq) after panels have been installed. But I'm happy to be corrected on both of those points. Or, indeed, on anything else.


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## ToutesDirections

Thanks TR - lots of info in those links. Helpful! 
Sounds like it doesn't matter so much which provider you choose, for feed-in tariff purposes.

I'm mainly interested in modeling the financial side, which has quite a few variables. For return on investment (the solar array) your location matters, as the map on the HelloWatt site helpfully points out. In sunnier locations you'll recoup the cost of the hardware/installation faster. There are other factors at play, like whether you have an EV or plug-in hybrid, and your average annual consumption.



> ...le nombre de panneaux solaires en autoconsommation avec vente du surplus a fortement augmenté ces dernières années


so the finances must pencil out for some.

I'm still doing research - will post further when I learn more.


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## ToulouseRob

Did you use the project simulator on the HelloWatt site? I think it's a good start. You need to put in an address and some other details that you might be cautious about using (although my feelings are that it is a safe enough site), but it gives you an estimated investment cost, annual generation and estimated break-even date. All subject to the usual guesswork, of course. It takes into account the site, direction the site faces but not any local obstructions like trees or buildings.

I think it was on that site I saw that 3kW is an important threshold: less than 3kW and the TVA is 10%, more than 3kW and TVA is 20% on the whole project, not just the marginal extra costs.


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## ToutesDirections

ToulouseRob said:


> This site is quite interesting: Comparateur Fournisseurs Électricité & Gaz


I started by entering a postcode on this site to see which providers serve the area. It returned a couple of providers and estimates, both ~€450/month for electric heat + hot water + cooking. For 2 people and a small house, not encouraging! BIF mentioned EdF is quite reasonable so I assumed something amiss on my side. Not sure what yet.



ToulouseRob said:


> This page is specifically about solar: Installation panneaux solaires : prix, pose et avis


Just now I tried entering a precise address on this page's estimator tool. It estimated the initial investment at €7500 and the total revenue over 25 years at 3x that number. The €22400 total includes both the monthly bill savings plus the revenue from selling the surplus to EdF. That seems a decent return on investment.

The initial investment number includes a 'prime à l'autoconsommation de 1 290 €'. I assume this is a rebate paid to the person who installs the solar system...but it could be something different IDK. The following page talks about a prime as well:



ToulouseRob said:


> and this page suggests EDF are obliged to pay 20c or 10c per kW for the next 20 years : [Guide] Prix panneaux solaires 2022


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## Lydi

ToutesDirections said:


> I assume this is a rebate paid to the person who installs the solar system...


No, the _prime_ is paid to the owner of the panels in installments over a period of 5 years.
Your excess production is calculated and invoiced to EDF yearly too.

A 450€ per month electricity bill seems very high to me (even with current escalating energy costs). You might expect such a bill for the winter months but not year round.


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## BackinFrance

450€for a month is huge, even in winter.

I have been with EDF for a very long time and have just allowed my contract to roll over which is I think why I am on a very low priced arrangement. I don't think you would get that with a new contract.


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## Lydi

BackinFrance said:


> 450€for a month is huge, even in winter.


Yes, you're right.
I had the figures in my head for our EDF bills before PV panels were installed here. We paid in the region of 450€ for our winter bills but that was for *2* months (We had 6 x 2 monthly payments per year). Summer bills dropped to less than 100€ for 2 months supply.
Have prices gone up that much?


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## BackinFrance

I don't see how the calculators can be reliable over a long period of time (perhaps after the 5 year mark) , if only because as the years pass solar panels become less efficient.


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## ToutesDirections

Lydi said:


> Yes, you're right.
> I had the figures in my head for our EDF bills before PV panels were installed here. We paid in the region of 450€ for our winter bills but that was for *2* months (We had 6 x 2 monthly payments per year). Summer bills dropped to less than 100€ for 2 months supply.
> Have prices gone up that much?


Just confirmed by running the HelloWatt calculator again... Now for the specified postcode there are 3 options for electricity providers, all estimating between 420€-460€ per (one) month. This is for 68m2, 2 persons, electric heating + water heating + cooking.

If anyone on the forum is setting up utility service, it would be helpful to hear what the calculator says about your location and your projected monthly cost for a new customer, all-electric household. It might be a glitch in the calculator (though that seems unlikely).


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## ToutesDirections

BackinFrance said:


> I don't see how the calculators can be reliable over a long period of time (perhaps after the 5 year mark) , if only because as the years pass solar panels become less efficient.


On the calculation of annual euro savings and payback time, the big variable is the price of electricity. Large retail price increases - as we might be seeing now - make the case for solar more compelling. Annual savings vs. not having solar tick upward and payback times get shorter.

Re: degradation there is a formula for how much efficiency solar panels lose over time. IDK if that's built into the HelloWatt calculator but my guess would be 'yes'. Most panels with EU certification are guaranteed to still produce at least 80% of their original capacity at the end of their warranty period (usually 25 years or 30 years).


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## BackinFrance

The biggest variable is probably the energy rating of home, then for those houses that are all electric, very specifically what form of heating they are using.

PS:
You would almost certainly have had far more feedback if you had started a new thread.

PPS:
Don’t buy a house with an energy rating of and G or F, because it is unlikely that you will be able to make it energy efficient. The difference between energy ratings is significant and it can be difficult or impossible to lift the rating.


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## ToutesDirections

BackinFrance said:


> The biggest variable is probably the energy rating of home, then for those houses that are all electric, very specifically what form of heating they are using.


To clarify what is meant by "variable", once you have bought a home, the factor that has the biggest impact on return on investment and payback time for rooftop solar is the retail price of electricity.



BackinFrance said:


> PS:
> You would almost certainly have had far more feedback if you had started a new thread.


Any interested party can start a new thread. I may still do that, but no need wait for me


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## BackinFrance

When I referred to variables it was in relation to the cost of electricity for an all electric home. 450€ per month is extraordinarily expensive.


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