# Citizenship......The Process?



## cscscs007 (Jan 8, 2011)

I am thinking about beginning the process for Mexican citizenship. I have no doubt this will be the biggest most daunting task I will probably ever have to encounter in Mexico.

I have been through the INM process for my Residente Temporal (Vinculo Familiar). Immigration was gracious enough to do this even though I asked for Residente Permanante as I have a son who is a Mexican citizen. When brought to their attention, nothing could be done of course except to start the process anew, something I did not cherish the thought of.

After my Residente Temporal one year renewal arrived I changed to Residente Permanante (Vinculo Familiar) which also was by no means an easy task to accomplish. INM is not very user friendly, but I will be the first to say they make it so you cherish that card when you do get it.

I have thought about the prospect of just living in Mexico as a Residente Permanante. It never needs to be renewed, no work permit necessary, can travel back and forth between the USA and Mexico without issue, along with many other benefits. Seems to be a simple decision.

Not so. In the last several years I have adapted very well to this lifestyle. I bought land, had my house built, am active in my community and have many friends and family that live here. But I feel as if I am still an outsider because I haven't taken the final step of being a Mexican citizen. I pushed my wife and her family to become American citizens which they did with some hesitation but now that they have achieved this status they are very proud of being dual citizens. I feel I should do the same, because I realize the sense of accomplishment of dual citizenship, but also to truly (I know it is just a piece of paper) be a peer among my family, friends, and neighbors.

I know there is paperwork involved that must be in order and exact to requirements. Here is what I know I need. Those who have completed this difficult task please let me know if I have overlooked anything.

Items required to take to SRE:

- Residente Permanante (Original and Copy)
- Birth Certificate (Original Apostilled, Translated Version, and copies of both)
- Passport (Original and Copy)
- INM document verifying my exits and entry in and out of Mexico (Original and copy)
- Copy of earlier Residente Temporal
- Jalisco Police Constancias de No Antecedentes Criminales (Original and Copy)
- Federal Police Constancias de No Antecedentes Criminales (Original and Copy)
- Proof of Address CFE bill, Telmex bill (Originals and Copies)
- Passport photos

- Payment of Fees (will wait for document from SRE to pay)

- Citizenship Test (I have been studying, and as an added bonus for memory retention I have taken the opportunity to personally visit famous sites in Mexico to see for myself and get the feel of the historical importance of the sites.

I have also but I do not know if necessary:

- Marriage license (Original Apostilled, Translated, and Copies of both)
- Son's birth certificate (Original Apostilled, Translated, and Copies of both)
- Son's birth certificate-Mexico (Original and Copy)
- Spouse birth certificate-Mexico (Original and Copy)
- Escrituras for my properties
- Letters of good standing from my neighbors and friends (approx. 40-50)

I think I have all my ducks in a row, but..........??????????

Am I missing something, and do I need to do anything specific that only a person would know that has gone through this process. 

PS....My son is a dual citizen by birth. He has birth certificates for both USA and
Mexico, which is why I included both. Also, I am 46 years of age which is why I have included the citizenship test. I am not old enough to get this waived.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

I went through this last year. Your list looks pretty complete to me. I found SRE to be much more helpful and easier to deal with than INM. Yes, the process involves a lot of paperwork and it took many trips to SRE to get it all right, but they tolerated errors and I just had to do it over. As one example, the copy of the visa had to be done exactly their way. First, I just made a copy of it normal sized. Then I blew it up to a full page for each side. That still wasn't right. I had to blow it up to half page size with both sides on one page.

One bit of a warning. Wait to get your constancias-de-no-antecedentes-criminales until you are sure everything else is in order. They are only good for a short period of time. I had to get the Jalisco one twice, and I only escaped by one day from having to make a second trip to Mexico City to get the federal one a second time.

In my case, they were not interested in anything that was not on the list. For example, I had a certificate of accomplishment from a Spanish language course. They had no interest in it. So they probably won't want the escrituras and other extras you mention.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Another word of wisdom wait to make sure the names are approved especially the wife´s name..it tookme a while to get mine straightened out and some of the papers are only valid for 3 months..including the police records. I had to do everything twice..


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## Kimpatsu Hekigan (Sep 12, 2009)

SRE has a series of web pages detailing the requirements for applying for citizenship, depending on what basis you are making the application (five years of residency; direct descendant of Mexican citizen, parent of a Mexican child, etc.).

Here's the link for five years of residency:

gob.mx | Secretaría de Relaciones Exteriores| Carta de naturalización por residencia

Note that the required documents differ somewhat from those the O.P. mentioned.

FWIW,

K.H.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

My facilitator helped me and my husband get all the paperwork together at considerable time and expense. The final step required going to the Guadalajara office. Said facilitator seemed to think that it would be a breeze since both my spouse and I are over 65. What we weren't told about and were not ready for was a "conversational Spanish" test administered by a speech impaired bureaucrat. Since my spouse is nearly deaf and I'm close to it, neither of us could understand him and we both failed. Hearing aids don't take care of all situations, and that was one. When I asked if we could take a written test, the answer was "no". Upon returning from Guadalajara and revisiting the facilitator, he said he didn't think elders were required to take that test, but he was sure they waive it in Mexico City. So much for the investment of time and $$$$. At that point, we gave up and are settling for our current Permanente status.

There are a few downsides to becoming a Mexican citizen. You can no longer use the services of the U.S. Consulate if you get in trouble. There could be IRS implications a well. Otherwise, it's a good thing. Just be ready for the above kind of situation.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

lagoloo said:


> My facilitator helped me and my husband get all the paperwork together at considerable time and expense. The final step required going to the Guadalajara office. Said facilitator seemed to think that it would be a breeze since both my spouse and I are over 65. What we weren't told about and were not ready for was a "conversational Spanish" test administered by a speech impaired bureaucrat. Since my spouse is nearly deaf and I'm close to it, neither of us could understand him and we both failed. Hearing aids don't take care of all situations, and that was one. When I asked if we could take a written test, the answer was "no". Upon returning from Guadalajara and revisiting the facilitator, he said he didn't think elders were required to take that test, but he was sure they waive it in Mexico City. So much for the investment of time and $$$$. At that point, we gave up and are settling for our current Permanente status.
> 
> There are a few downsides to becoming a Mexican citizen. You can no longer use the services of the U.S. Consulate if you get in trouble. There could be IRS implications a well. Otherwise, it's a good thing. Just be ready for the above kind of situation.


I remember your mentioning your experiences earlier. I wonder if having a facilitator might have had a negative impact on your reception at the SRE office. I went through the process on my own. My Spanish ability is mediocre, but they never questioned me about it. I found them much more helpful than any other bureaucracy I have had to deal with here. Once, when I didn't have the right copy, they even made a copy for me. The process was long and took a lot of time. It was 8 months from when I started until they accepted my paperwork. And then it was another 6 months before my Carta de Naturalización came through.

Regarding using the US Consulate: A dual citizen can still use the consulate for things like notarization or help with social security etc. If a dual citizen got in real trouble and wanted the US Consulate to intervene with the Mexican government, the dual citizenship would be a problem. I am not familiar with the IRS implications and would be interested in hearing more about that.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

I imagine that the use of a facilitator or lawyer (in this case) might have a negative impact, but frankly, I'm just not good enough at navigating the territory and my Spanish is limited to conversational level rather than advanced bureaucrateese. And, different offices have different attitudes based on their employees. I've heard they are more accepting of foreigners in Mexico city. In any case, I'd think that a couple from the U.S. wanting to become Mexican citizens and make that kind of commitment would be welcome........but?? 

After abandoning the attempt at citizenship, I read an article which mentioned the problems re the IRS on Google, but can't remember how to get there. It was primarily a problem for the well off, so.....no problem here.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

I found one of the references after searching "disadvantages of U.S. citizen becoming Mexican citizen":

List of countries that allow or disallow Dual Citizenship – D’Alessio Law Group

There were several other references that came up under that heading.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

lagoloo said:


> I found one of the references after searching "disadvantages of U.S. citizen becoming Mexican citizen":
> 
> List of countries that allow or disallow Dual Citizenship – D’Alessio Law Group
> 
> There were several other references that came up under that heading.


That page does not seem completely accurate. Germany allows dual citizenship with Switzerland but not the US according to my daughter who lives there but cannot become a citizen without giving up her US citizenship, while her German in-laws hold dual German-Swiss citizenship.

I looked at some IRS pages about dual citizenship and they seemed to just talk about FBAR reporting which applies to everyone residing outside the US, not just dual citizens.


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

The point was about Mexico's place on the list, and how it would affect people who wish to have Mexican citizenship.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I think the list is misleading , Mexico does allow dual citizenship for its citizen but not whilein Mexico.
Spain..I do not know if it only is in SPain like Mexico does because my nephews and brother in law are dual citizen French and Spanish. I would thingk that while in Spain they are Spanish but they do have the dual citizenship as the grand-father was a Spanish refugie from teh civil war and Spain offered them the citizenship.. there is a whole lot more to that list that allowed and not allowed..


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

The best information I can find is that Citlali is correct in that dual citizenship is allowed, but not while in Mexico. This brings it back to the fact that a U.S. citizen who has become a Mexican citizen cannot use the U.S. Consulate for help while in Mexico.

There are some tax problems that can arise if one has, for instance, interest income from the U.S. which, as a Mexican citizen, would need to be reported for Mexican taxes and could possibly result in a larger tax liability.

If in doubt.......consult a lawyer, of course. Information gleaned from a web board is worth what you pay for it.


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## Gatos (Aug 16, 2016)

lagoloo said:


> There are some tax problems that can arise if one has, for instance, interest income from the U.S. which, as a Mexican citizen, would need to be reported for Mexican taxes and could possibly result in a larger tax liability.


Did you read that somewhere or are you assuming ? I've no idea - but would still think you shouldn't be taxed in 2 places for the same income.

It is my impression - principally from reading forums such as this over the years - that neither the US nor Mexico WANT you to be a citizen in more than one country. In fact - I thought that amidst the stack of paperwork you sign at SRE is a statement that you only pledge allegiance to Mexico - And I'm sure that a similar statement is 'implied' with US citizenship.

But it would be interesting to know - do you need to make such a statement ?


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

I try to never assume. My early life errors were based on dumb assumptions. (lol) Most of us can relate to that one, si?

All the information I posted came from a Google search under "disadvantages of U.S. citizen becoming a Mexican citizen" 5 pages of results came back, some with little relevance, some usefull enough to pass on here. I culled out anything that was simply someone's webboard post, unless it was by someone like Rolly Brook. 

As far as taxes go, each government collecting taxes from its citizens grabs as much they can, fair or not. 'Tis the nature of tax collectors, for all time.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

There is no problem. US and Mexico have a tax treaty that protects you from double taxation.
Yes, you will sign that statement, but you do not lose your US citizenship, nor can you do so unless you make a determined effort to renounce it in person, in front of a consular official of the US government.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Gatos said:


> Did you read that somewhere or are you assuming ? I've no idea - but would still think you shouldn't be taxed in 2 places for the same income.
> 
> It is my impression - principally from reading forums such as this over the years - that neither the US nor Mexico WANT you to be a citizen in more than one country. In fact - I thought that amidst the stack of paperwork you sign at SRE is a statement that you only pledge allegiance to Mexico - And I'm sure that a similar statement is 'implied' with US citizenship.
> 
> But it would be interesting to know - do you need to make such a statement ?


When they give you the Carta de Naturalización, the final step in becoming a Mexican citizen, you sign a statement agreeing that while in Mexico you will be treated as a Mexican citizen. I don't remember the exact phrasing, but my recollection is that I renounced any rights as a citizen of another country, while in Mexico.

However, I am still a US citizen and I could still appeal to the US Consulate for help. It might put my Mexican citizenship at risk to do that, but I could do it. My Mexican citizenship would also affect how enthusiastic the US Consulate might be to try to help me I suspect. But I haven't violated any laws by having dual citizenship.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I would not worry too much about an enthusiastic consulate, they are pretty useless as a rule .so they get you a lawyer or recommend one..whoopie..

WHen they put me in dentention I did not even think about calling the French consulate.. The MP wanted to call the US consulate because obviously I was a US citizen.. They were relieved when I told them not to bother beause I was a Mexican citizen and I was not from the US anyways..

I often wonder what a consulate really does except muddy the water..


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## maesonna (Jun 10, 2008)

As far as Mexico is concerned, tax liabilities come from your residence and economic activity, not from your nationality.
If you live legally in Mexico and earn Mexican income, your tax obligations are the same whether you are a foreign resident of Mexico or a Mexican national: that is, Mexican nationality doesn’t give you any additional tax obligations.

As mentioned above, Mexico and U.S. have an avoidance of double taxation treaty. 

The U.S. is almost unique in the world in imposing tax obligation on its expatriates. Even though you don’t have to pay tax on the same income to both countries, you may still have to file a U.S. tax return.

Canada, for instance, doesn’t require its expatriate citizens to file a Canadian tax return if we are what is called ‘deemed non-residents’ of Canada.


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## 1439945 (Mar 19, 2017)

An American woman living near Coatepec said she has been to two offices to apply for dual citizenship and was told that she would have to give up her US citizenship. I know two people in Xalapa who have had dual citizenship for a decade. Has either US or Mexican law/regulation on dual citizenship changed recently? If no one knows, where do I start to find out?


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## maesonna (Jun 10, 2008)

elmontgom said:


> An American woman living near Coatepec said she has been to two offices to apply for dual citizenship and was told that she would have to give up her US citizenship. I know two people in Xalapa who have had dual citizenship for a decade. Has either US or Mexican law/regulation on dual citizenship changed recently? If no one knows, where do I start to find out?


She was told wrong. There has been no recent change. 
I think all of us here know some dual citizens. Some people on this forum even _are_ dual citizens. And yet if an official tells her that, there is no arguing with them. As far as I know, her only recourse is to go to another office; to find one where the people do know what the rules are.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

elmontgom said:


> An American woman living near Coatepec said she has been to two offices to apply for dual citizenship and was told that she would have to give up her US citizenship. I know two people in Xalapa who have had dual citizenship for a decade. Has either US or Mexican law/regulation on dual citizenship changed recently? If no one knows, where do I start to find out?


I became a dual citizen last May so my information is pretty recent. There is NO requirement to give up your US citizenship.

However, when I became a Mexican citizen, I had to agree that while I am in Mexico I will be treated as a Mexican. My interpretation of this is that in the event I have problems in Mexico, I would not be able to appeal to a consulate or embassy of the US. If I did assert my rights as a US citizen while in Mexico, I would forfeit my Mexican citizenship. I think it may be this requirement that leads to the myth that you have to renounce your US citizenship to become a Mexican citizen.

As a side comment, the rules on dual citizenship vary by country. And many countries have policies that vary depending on the other country involved. There are lists on the web. For example, my daughter, a US citizen, has lived in Germany for more than 25 years and cannot become a dual US-German citizen. She would have to give up her US citizenship to become a German citizen. However, I have German friends living in Switzerland who are dual German-Swiss citizens. It depends on the countries. Mexico and the US allow dual citizenship and my guess is that there might be more people holding dual US-Mexico citizenship than any other pair of countries.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

maesonna said:


> She was told wrong. There has been no recent change.
> I think all of us here know some dual citizens. Some people on this forum even _are_ dual citizens. And yet if an official tells her that, there is no arguing with them. As far as I know, her only recourse is to go to another office; to find one where the people do know what the rules are.


Actually, I don't think it matters what the official in a Mexican office thinks. They cannot make you give up your US citizenship. In fact, renouncing US citizenship is rather difficult to do. It would probably be better to find an office where they don't think dual citizenship is impossible, but one could apply for Mexican citizenship anywhere, even if they misunderstood the rules. When the final step arrives and they hand you the Carta de Naturalización, you will have to sign papers agreeing to be treated as Mexican in Mexico, but they won't confiscate your US or other passport.


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## maesonna (Jun 10, 2008)

TundraGreen said:


> Actually, I don't think it matters what the official in a Mexican office thinks. They cannot make you give up your US citizenship.


Right, I agree—they can’t force a US citizen to renounce. And simply taking the passport and refusing to return it doesn’t remove citizenship*: as you say, the process of renouncing citizenship is complicated and expensive (for the applicant).
But it could matter what the official thinks: I can well imagine that cscscs007’s friend could run up against a scenario where the official simply refuses to process the citizenship application of the truculent foreigner who insists that dual citizenship is possible.
========
*I don’t know how it works for Americans, but this is how a Canadian consulate official explained it to me (off the record, of course) back in the days when Mexico didn’t openly allow dual citizenship: the Canadian (who was passportless because they had surrendered it as part of their Mexican nationality application) would go to the Canadian consulate to report that their passport was missing and apply for a new one. On the form where it asked whether the passport was "lost, stolen, or other,” they would check “other”.


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## horseshoe846 (Feb 8, 2017)

We took a trial run to SRE recently - to say hello, get their requirements and let them know we would be back at the end of the year for real. The three women in the (kind of small office) were great. It seemed like my wife and I were their only visitors in a while. They wanted apostatized birth certificates but they had no interest in our marriage certificate - which surprised us a little.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

y husband is a dual citizen Mexican /US and I am Mexican / French. In Mexico we are Mexican citizen period outside of Mexico we are whatever we want.. this is the way it works in Mexico, you only "renounce" your original citizenship while in Mexico, which means you do not run to a consulate when in trouble in Mexico nothing else..
I would not argue with the people in that office, there is nothing they can do, just sign the paper saying your renounce whatever while in Mexico. It is a Federal Law and an office cannot say or do anything about it.
I would not even know where to begin to renounce my French citizenship...


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## Jim from Alaska (Feb 20, 2017)

First, I'd like to thank everybody for the posts because this is great information and if I may ask, the difference between permanante and resident. I just want to spend my remaining years legal/a productive part of the local populous not necessarily with dual citizenship but I don't want to give up my social security check when I turn 62.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Jim from Alaska said:


> First, I'd like to thank everybody for the posts because this is great information and if I may ask, the difference between permanante and resident. I just want to spend my remaining years legal/a productive part of the local populous not necessarily with dual citizenship but I don't want to give up my social security check when I turn 62.


There are two types of visas, both give you legal residence in Mexico: Temporary and Permanent. The income qualifications for Permanent are slightly higher than for Temporary. However, after 4 years on a Temporary you are converted to Permanent anyway. There are some differences in what you are allowed to do but both give you legal residence in Mexico. Nothing you do in Mexico will affect your US Social Security. You can still collect it while living in Mexico.

Incidentally, the names in Spanish are Residente Temporal and Residente Permanente.


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## Jim from Alaska (Feb 20, 2017)

TundraGreen said:


> There are two types of visas, both give you legal residence in Mexico: Temporary and Permanent. The income qualifications for Permanent are slightly higher than for Temporary. However, after 4 years on a Temporary you are converted to Permanent anyway. There are some differences in what you are allowed to do but both give you legal residence in Mexico. Nothing you do in Mexico will affect your US Social Security. You can still collect it while living in Mexico.
> 
> Incidentally, the names in Spanish are Residente Temporal and Residente Permanente.


Thanks TundraGreen(I know what tundra is ). If everything is as advertised the wife and I plan on buying a home and after looking at the financial requirements for Residente Permanente, I should be golden even prior to turning 62. But I did hear/read something that basically said if you give up US citizenship you lose social security. I don't want to go that far into residency, I just want to maintain a low profile and enjoy the rest of my life in the best lap of luxury I can afford and I think "lakeside" is the ticket.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Jim from Alaska said:


> Thanks TundraGreen(I know what tundra is ). If everything is as advertised the wife and I plan on buying a home and after looking at the financial requirements for Residente Permanente, I should be golden even prior to turning 62. But I did hear/read something that basically said if you give up US citizenship you lose social security. I don't want to go that far into residency, I just want to maintain a low profile and enjoy the rest of my life in the best lap of luxury I can afford and I think "lakeside" is the ticket.


You don't give up citizenship in the US to reside in Mexico. In fact, as discussed in another thread you can even become a Mexican citizen and still maintain your US citizenship, but that is not pertinent to you at the moment. Good luck.

PS I know what Tundra is also. I grew up in Alaska, although that is not where my screen name came from. What part of Alaska do you hail from?


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Why give up SS?? I worked for 30 years in the States , I am not a US citizen and get SS in Mexico I am a dual Mexican French citizen. SS is something you earn by paying into the system and it has nothing to do with your nationality.


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## Jim from Alaska (Feb 20, 2017)

TundraGreen said:


> PS I know what Tundra is also. I grew up in Alaska, although that is not where my screen name came from. What part of Alaska do you hail from?


Wow!! It's nice to know I'm not the only one from Alaska then. I grew up in Anchorage and if your from Anch. also I'm from Spenard/Turnagain West High grad.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

and you guys know about large mosquitoes more than anyone else in the world..


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