# Who's been denied an elective residency visa, and why?



## krem1234

Hi all, I'll be applying for an elective residency visa for Italy in about two weeks, and was interested in getting as much information as I could about visa denials as well as the reasons behind those denials. I've already read what I was able to find in previous threads on this website as well as from searching on Google, and it seems that in the majority of cases where this category of visa was denied, it was due to financial reasons, with the consulate stating that individual does not meet their minimum requirements, which don't seem to be published and appear to vary from consulate to consulate. I've also come across a number of other cases where people were denied on the basis of their lease agreement being for under 12 months, or for some other issue relating to their lease.

Essentially I'm trying to be as prepared as possible going into the appointment at the consulate so that hopefully, I get approved for the visa.

Thanks


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## accbgb

Your two examples are the prime factors but it is worth noting that the latter is normally easily fixable - the consulate will be open to you obtaining a suitable lease and re-submitting your application - whereas the refusal on financial grounds is far more difficult to overcome.

Where will you be applying? Some consulates appear to be looking for €31,000 - €35,000 per year guaranteed income _per applicant_ whereas others look for that amount for the first applicant and then an additional 25% - 50% for the second applicant.

Some consulates have been known to refuse to consider interest income on the basis that the rate paid can change at any moment and annuities must be of a specific type to be considered.


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## Italia-Mx

If you're an American, the consulate will be looking for guaranteed, monthly retirement income from a reliable source such as Social Security or other US govt. pensions. It can use it's discretion as to how much it should be per applicant.


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## krem1234

Thanks for the responses so far. I'll be applying in New York, I also qualify as a resident of Texas, so Houston is my "backup" in case I was denied in NY and thought that I'd have a good shot in Houston. From what I've gathered it seems like the consulates in Chicago, Miami, and San Francisco appear to be the most difficult, Houston seems to be easier but I'll already be in NY and don't want to fly there unless I have to.

About my income which I plan to use to qualify for the visa, it's basically all income from real estate investments, I'm younger than most applicants for the ER visa so don't have a pension, annuities, SS, or anything like that. Plus I only have around two years' history of any real investment income, but my savings are really good and the investment income I do have is much higher than their minimum so hopefully that will help. It seems like I'll find out for sure only when I'm there in person, applying at the consulate. NY mentions "substantial and stable" income, and mentions "income from properties," so maybe they're a little looser than most with respect to requiring "guaranteed" income.

Thanks


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## accbgb

I'm sorry to have to tell you that everything you posted above is going to work against a successful ER visa.

1) ER visas are meant for retirees who intend to live the rest of their lives in Italy. No, they can't force you to stay, but that is the expectation and you are required to show sufficient income (actually, most would argue "way more than sufficient") that is permanent in nature and will continue past your estimated life expectancy. The younger you are, the more difficult it is to prove this type of income.

2) They are looking for guaranteed income: pensions, social security, lifetime annuities, and so on. Investment income is uncertain, can change at any time or even disappear entirely. Rental income is usually denied as well for the same reason.

3) New York is a tough consulate for ER visas.

4) You will need to prove your current residence to show that you are able to apply at any given consulate. They typically require a drivers license or other government issued ID, one or more utility bills in your name and address, bank statements, etc., all showing the same address.

5) Don't get caught lying or even fibbing to the visa officer. That is the surest way to be blacklisted by *all* consulates, not just the one you initially apply at.

I suggest you consider this carefully before applying as, once turned down, your options will be severely limited. No, you cannot simply apply at another consulate, and no, you cannot request a different type of visa; consulate's don't like "visa shoppers."

I suggest you consider one or more university-level courses and a student visa. That would get you a year or more in Italy and come with the added advantage of being able to work up to 20 hours a week should the mood strike you. Then, if you find that you really do like living in Italy, you can always try for that ER visa later when you at least have few more years of investment income history.


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## krem1234

I guess I'll have to see what happens at the consulate. My goal is to move to Italy permanently, I'm not really interested in getting something like a student visa and staying there for a year or two, if it's that short a time I wouldn't even bother with applying for a visa, I would just go there for a few months as a tourist. 

About "intent" I've heard opposing things, some have said what you say, several others I've come across have said that it's a lot easier to get the visa if you don't state you want to live in Italy forever, but want to move there maybe for a few years etc. as in the latter case they scrutinize you much less, and it's easier to be successful in getting the visa.

I do have proof of residency, and know it's a bad idea of lie of course.

Do you know how the Houston consulate compares with NY? I don't have much info in either case, I only came across one case of someone applying at Houston and they got it but only after sending additional financials proving they have $70,000 in savings, and I've heard of successes as well as failures at the NY consulate. So if you apply at one and are denied, all the others will see that and basically automatically deny you again on that basis?


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## accbgb

For US citizens, there is the "90 days out of any 180 day period" tourist visa waiver and then there is the Elective Residency visa which, as I indicated, is meant for people who intend to reside permanently in Italy and can prove they have the financial resources to do so without becoming a burden of the Italian state. There is no such thing as an "I just want to live there for a few years" visa and, if you tell them that up front, every indication is that you will certainly be denied.


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## krem1234

I understand that, I'm just saying that I heard from several people that they scrutinize your application much less and are easier with the financial requirements and so forth if you present yourself as sometime who's choosing to live in Italy longer-term, versus someone presenting themselves as someone who wants to live in Italy for the rest of their life. Maybe that's bad advice, I'm just going off what I've read from other people that have applied.


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## NickZ

Some of this will just be a sniff test. You know when you pull the milk out of the fridge and give it a sniff?

If you're younger and not retired it'll take more to convince the consulate that you won't end up working. Even if there is no chance you'll need to work. People get bored and look for a job. For example


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## krem1234

In case it helps anyone in the future, I got the elective residency visa with the finances that I mentioned earlier in this thread.


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## accbgb

krem1234 said:


> In case it helps anyone in the future, I got the elective residency visa with the finances that I mentioned earlier in this thread.


From the New York consulate? That is pretty amazing and counter to virtually every other report I have read from any consulate in the US, let alone NYC...


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## Italia-Mx

krem1234 said:


> In case it helps anyone in the future, I got the elective residency visa with the finances that I mentioned earlier in this thread.


Congratulations. It sounds like perfect timing to me as the Italian Consulate of New York is now doing business in the home of another successful real estate investor. His name is President Donald J. Trump.


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## accbgb

Italia-Mx said:


> Congratulations. It sounds like perfect timing to me as the Italian Consulate of New York is now doing business in the home of another successful real estate investor. His name is President Donald J. Trump.


Having experienced Berlusconi in the past, maybe the consulate feels bad and is doing what it can to help out the people who want to get out of the US...


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## Italia-Mx

I've been in Italy since 2001 and I can assure you times were much, much better for the Italian people WITH Berlusconi. Interestingly enough, he was "deposed" at around the same time Obama was elected and then we all know what happened to Khadafi. Yeah, how about that? Very convenient, especially since Obama said he was going to change the world and redistribute the wealth. No doubt the penniless sub-Saharan Africans that have invaded Italy by the hundreds of thousands took Obama at his word. They think he gave them permission. If I had not been personally asked by some of these migrants if I voted for Obama, I would have been none the wiser.


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## GeordieBorn

Did you vote for Trump then?


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## joec20

krem1234 said:


> In case it helps anyone in the future, I got the elective residency visa with the finances that I mentioned earlier in this thread.


That's awesome, Krem! Congrats.

Do you mind sharing more specific info on your finances? As in, what precisely were your savings vs income etc?

Like you, I'm quite a bit younger than the typical ER applicant. I have substantial savings but, due to my age, none of the typical sources of guaranteed income for this kind of thing (pension, social security). And my intention is to only live in Italy for the one year. So I would be grateful for any deeper specifics you can share on how you were able to get it done.

Thanks!


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## krem1234

joec20 said:


> That's awesome, Krem! Congrats.
> 
> Do you mind sharing more specific info on your finances? As in, what precisely were your savings vs income etc?
> 
> Like you, I'm quite a bit younger than the typical ER applicant. I have substantial savings but, due to my age, none of the typical sources of guaranteed income for this kind of thing (pension, social security). And my intention is to only live in Italy for the one year. So I would be grateful for any deeper specifics you can share on how you were able to get it done.
> 
> Thanks!


Sure, I'd be happy to help, but I'd suggest messaging me directly. The nitty-gritty of my personal finances is not something I'd like to post publicly.

Though, if you're only going for a year, I'd think about something a lot easier like a student visa, especially if you have any interest in studying Italian.


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## joec20

Much appreciated, krem! I'll send you a private message shortly...


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## joec20

Errr, well, it will have to wait until that feature is unlocked on my account, apparently.


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## tucker.mansager

Glad to hear things worked out. That was a quick decision, wasn't it--how long did it take? I am looking at the ER visa as well, but my income will be provided for by a sufficient pension. As you have recently gone through the process, any pointers? We may not move permanently for several years, should I go ahead and get the visa now?


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## krem1234

The speed of the decision was amazing - I flew to visit family the same day I applied for the visa, and my dad joked that the visa almost beat me back. They sent it I believe the following day, though that's really unusual, I've heard of people waiting for three months to get the visa.

About pointers, not too much - mostly I'd say have all of your paperwork 100% in order, and I made sure to show up on time and dressed reasonably well. About when to apply, I think that depends on you - the date on the visa can be max three months out, and there's a lot to deal with after you get into Italy so I'd be sure you'll at least mostly be there to deal with the permesso di soggiorno and so forth. Also keep in mind that as an American, without a visa you can only stay in Italy max 90 days every 180 days. With a pension, an ER visa should be much more of a lock for you than it was for me.


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## dma1250

I'm very relieved you got approved. We have an appointment in New York soon and our income is all from investment properties as well. And we're younger than most. Unlike you, we are a couple with a teenager. My hope is that his being enrolled in a private international school already will give us an edge.

Not to get too personal, but I'd love to know if you were quoted a per person annual income requirement. I recently read that the New York Consulate has set 50,000€ per person as the minimum. Does that match your experience?

On a related note, does anyone have experience setting up automatic transfers from savings to checking? We'd like to do that to hedge our bet on meeting the annual income bar, in case they reject one of our sources.

Thanks


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## krem1234

I don't recall them ever quoting me an exact figure.


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## laffs4sale

Congratulations, Krem. I just discovered this visa today. Like you, I am younger than retirement age. Does anybody know if dividend income from stocks meets the financial requirement? I have to believe dividend income from blue chip stocks is just as stable as rental income, but when you're dealing with bureaucracy, common sense doesn't always prevail. Thank you.


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## twobbs

We were recently granted ER visas in SF and will be moving in October. There wasn't a particular problem with using investment assets and returns to make up our income for the visa application. (We don't have pensions.)

The most critical requirement is that you have a minimum 1-year lease on a house or apartment (or own one), and that the lease/ownership is registered with the Entrate (the Italian IRS). We were rejected at our first appointment because we only had a contractual agreement (with a deposit) to make a lease under specified terms when we arrived in Italy. We were fairly easily able to turn that into a regular lease with a contingency on being granted ER visas.

At least this is now the policy in SF. (It changed not long before our first appointment.)


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## krem1234

Hopefully that's limited to just that or just a few embassies and will it make it substantially more difficult for people to get visas. I only had a month-to-month lease when I applied which was not registered and no one said anything.


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## twobbs

It is true that the language on the SF consulate page cites more constraints than the others I looked at. Most of the others say "registered lease", but don't specify a length of contract or what exactly a registered lease is. I suspect the bottom line here is about getting leases registered with the Entrate in general. So, I wouldn't be surprised to see this requirement pop up elsewhere.


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## misha38

krem1234 said:


> In case it helps anyone in the future, I got the elective residency visa with the finances that I mentioned earlier in this thread.


I am in fairly similar situation - a long way from the retirement age with majority of the income for the application coming from the rental properties.

What kind of documentation did the NYC consulate require to prove the rental income? And what was the amount they used for their calculations - i.e. is it the $ they see in the tax returns (which is much lower than reality due to the depreciation expense) or just whatever activity they see on your bank accounts?

Thank you!


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## krem1234

I had residency in Texas at the time so I applied in Houston, can't say anything about NY.


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## misha38

krem1234 said:


> I had residency in Texas at the time so I applied in Houston, can't say anything about NY.


I see, thanks. Could you tell me what exactly they looked at for rental income in Houston? 

Отправлено с моего SM-G950U через Tapatalk


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## krem1234

misha38 said:


> I see, thanks. Could you tell me what exactly they looked at for rental income in Houston?
> 
> Отправлено с моего SM-G950U через Tapatalk


They looked at what I gave them, which was a letter from the real estate firm I was investing with along with a history of returns, along with letters from my banks with the account balances.


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## misha38

krem1234 said:


> They looked at what I gave them, which was a letter from the real estate firm I was investing with along with a history of returns, along with letters from my banks with the account balances.


thank you. so the embassy did not ask for deeds proving ownership and rental agreements for each property, correct? i guess it may not hurt for me to bring more documents which I have anyway, but I do not want to put them off by bringing binders of paperwork for each property....


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## krem1234

misha38 said:


> thank you. so the embassy did not ask for deeds proving ownership and rental agreements for each property, correct? i guess it may not hurt for me to bring more documents which I have anyway, but I do not want to put them off by bringing binders of paperwork for each property....


I probably wouldn't go so far as to bring binders of papers, but it's better to have too much than not enough. Even if you don't give it to them, it'd be really good to have it there just in case they want to see it. They didn't ask for deeds or anything like that - I don't have those anyway as I'm a limited partner in my investments - but in my case I brought a letter from the investment firm along with the history of returns.

If you own the properties yourself or have mortgages, I'd suggest bringing previous tax returns with the schedule that shows this income also.


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