# Holiday Rental Sites to be Obliged to Share Information with Hacienda



## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

This new law could well cause problems for owners who rent out properties to tourists but don't declare the income for tax.

Una norma obligará a las webs de alquiler vacacional a informar a Hacienda del negocio | Diario Sur


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

About time too!


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Hopefully the next step will be to ensure that the propertiesa are adequately equipped with fire prevention, evacuation and other H&S facilities.....

We live in hope!


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Here in Extremadura the Junta is now seriously on the case. They now have a department solely for researching un registered holiday lets. I know of people who advertise on airbnb have had letters asking for them to show their paperwork covering both Spanish and Immigrants. The policy is that ALL properties must be registered, my understanding is also that they have brought in another level to cover the airbnb type property. I think it is correct, from a personal point of view why should I work two days a week pay tax, declare income etc, but you rent out a spare room €30 pn and pay nothing, declare nothing. :fencing:


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

The letting rules are decided by each Region, so with the wide variations, they do not server in general to protect the people renting.

The rules were not brought in not to protect tourists but to support the hotel lobby who think it will make people rent hotels rooms rather than private apartments. Different market of course

OK the owners should pay the tax, but if they do, they will pass it on to those who are renting or they may just stop letting:

= less accommodation = less visitors = less income for Spain = increased unemployment = more damage to the property market, et al. 

Looks Like a loss, loss situation for Spain.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Juan C said:


> The letting rules are decided by each Region, so with the wide variations, they do not server in general to protect the people renting.
> 
> The rules were not brought in not to protect tourists but to support the hotel lobby who think it will make people rent hotels rooms rather than private apartments. Different market of course
> 
> ...


Methinks you are using faulty reasoning, although I agree that the rules have not been introduced to protect tourists and do go some way to protecting the hotel industry (and other accommodation types that register and pay taxes). The rules have also been introduced to address tax evasion.

Of course, I can see that those who rent out properties on airb'n'b and other platforms might have a different view and feel that they are being inappropriately targeted and hard done by.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

To be fair it really does seem more hotel lobby mafia first then any other possible benefits that will not be thought through and implemented poorly, second.
Which also does seem to be way most things are done here anyway.

Hey I'm all for business' to be registered and people to pay their share in taxes and what not but you only have to look into the rules in Andalusia to show who is lining the pockets.
I mean all guests must be registered to the police or GC is a tremendous waste of everybody's time and resources.
Among all the other ludicrous crap required.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Overandout said:


> Hopefully the next step will be to ensure that the propertiesa are adequately equipped with fire prevention, evacuation and other H&S facilities.....
> 
> We live in hope!


Not always possible in old village houses. Modern hotels with fire escapes etc aren't everyone's cup of tea; let people know the risks and make their own choice?


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> Not always possible in old village houses. Modern hotels with fire escapes etc aren't everyone's cup of tea; let people know the risks and make their own choice?


Very true. I have sometimes been concerned when stopping in some smaller hotels that are old period places. Especially with the iron bars on the only window. They could still have regulations like carbon monoxide and fire alarms though.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Alcalaina said:


> Not always possible in old village houses. Modern hotels with fire escapes etc aren't everyone's cup of tea; let people know the risks and make their own choice?


That is a possibility, but why should the choice be with the guest when renting privately, when all hotels must provide the legally required levels of safety?

I stayed in a hotel last weekend which was in a 14thC convent and the owners had manged to comply with the rules and obtain an operating licence.

Why should the owners of rental apartment be exempt? If you can't comply with the requirements established for any other business, you won't get a licence....

This is discussed here (in case anyone else finds such stuff interesting!!):

LOS APARTAMENTOS TURÍSTICOS PARTICULARES, “EN EL LIMBO”, EN MATERIA DE SEGURIDAD CONTRA INCENDIOS


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

There are so many rental sites that i wonder if it will be cost effective. A lot of people would have to be employed to trawl the sites and link up with the persons tax record..or lack of. I suppose there are wear and tear allowances and other costs too etc.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Just write it in to the building code then, make it a requirement for all households.
People rent long term in these death traps daily.
I may even live in one.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Pazcat said:


> Just write it in to the building code then, make it a requirement for all households.
> People rent long term in these death traps daily.
> I may even live in one.


But that is the problem!

The codes are different for residential building and hotels. When people start using residential properties as hotels without "upgrading" to the corresponding code's requirements they "could" be setting themselves up for a hefty liability in case of an incident.

But as the article explains, as there is no formal recognition of the tourist apartments in either code, the owners will insist that they are simply short term residential lets, whereas the hotel owners feel agrieved by this "loop-hole". 

I can understand the hoteliers TBH, but that may be just me...


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Ahh but it is apples and oranges and any legislation should be able to make that distinction.

The French seem to have a good system in place with their set up for Gîtes, I have said in the past that this type of registration and requirements would surely make a whole lot more sense than trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Also the best part about such a system is it doesn't matter what the hoteliers have to say about it because it is none of their business and rightly so.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

'To be fair' - these rental platforms push up housing prices and push local people out of town, often far from their work. There are myriad reasons to take action - IMHO. The move happens to suit the hotel lobby - why shouldn't it?


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Pazcat said:


> Ahh but it is apples and oranges and any legislation should be able to make that distinction.
> 
> The French seem to have a good system in place with their set up for Gîtes, I have said in the past that this type of registration and requirements would surely make a whole lot more sense than trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
> 
> Also the best part about such a system is it doesn't matter what the hoteliers have to say about it because it is none of their business and rightly so.


But France also has a problem with the holiday let platforms. Sure, they are at least starting to address it. So here, it's not just a 'hotel' lobby that's unhappy, it's the whole of the legal holiday accommodation industry - i.e. hotels, B&Bs, gites, camping. Oh, and it's not obligatory for gite owners to be members of Gites de France.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

I appreciate my knowledge is very limited on this. 

However, my son who has two apartment in Spain which he used to let to holiday-makers throughout the year, stopped doing so when the new regulations came into force. Hacienda don’t get any tax from him any more.

One of the apartment he keeps for his own holiday use, the other has been occupied by a friend, who is on a very low income, for coming up to 5 years, totally free of rent. The friend pays the Electric and water only. My son prefers to take the loss rather than comply with the new rules, which would result in a lot of inconvenience and much lower net income. He also does not have the maintenance and repairs costs associated with letting, damage, wear and tear, theft etc.

I have a friend who has been in the rental business for many years. She is always desperately looking for properties to let. The market in her experience has dried-up since the introduction of the new rules. She says many owners who used to are no longer letting. More hits for Hacienda’s income.

I also am aware of other properties which used to be let, are no longer available.

As I said my experience in this area is small but if my snap-shot is a reflection generally, then Spain’s potential income from tourists is in trouble. Unless of course they are all now staying in hotels !


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Sadly the people who will be hit hardest are low income households who literally do what Airbnb was originally intended for, i.e. rent out a spare room in their house. They provide a useful service to low-budget travellers/toursts and earn a bit of cash at the same time. They can't afford to install fire escapes etc. and their guests wouldn't expect that.

I suppose it was inevitable that such a good idea would quickly become mega-commerce with lots of unwanted negative effects.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Sadly the people who will be hit hardest are low income households who literally do what Airbnb was originally intended for, i.e. rent out a spare room in their house. They provide a useful service to low-budget travellers/toursts and earn a bit of cash at the same time. They can't afford to install fire escapes etc. and their guests wouldn't expect that.
> 
> I suppose it was inevitable that such a good idea would quickly become mega-commerce with lots of unwanted negative effects.


Do you really believe that was what Airbnb was originally intended for? Even if it was (and I very much doubt it), it very quickly changed - pretty much as soon as it hit countries outside the US.

:rofl:


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Juan C said:


> I appreciate my knowledge is very limited on this.
> 
> However, my son who has two apartment in Spain which he used to let to holiday-makers throughout the year, stopped doing so when the new regulations came into force. Hacienda don’t get any tax from him any more.
> 
> ...


Are you sure it was the new rules? After all, you say one of your son's apartments has been occupied by a friend for coming up to 5 years.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

EverHopeful said:


> Do you really believe that was what Airbnb was originally intended for? Even if it was (and I very much doubt it), it very quickly changed - pretty much as soon as it hit countries outside the US.
> 
> :rofl:


It started ten years ago in San Francisco. Three guys, who needed a bit of extra cash to pay the rent, set up inflatable matresses in their flat (that's where the Air bit comes from) and offered a posh breakfast. Then came the online booking app and the rest is history.

I have several empty-nester friends back in the UK who rent out their spare bedrooms now and again. In places like Oxford and Canterbury where hotel space is at a premium, it's a really useful service.


How 3 Guys Went from Renting Mattresses to a $10 Billion Dollar Company


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Juan C said:


> I appreciate my knowledge is very limited on this.
> 
> However, my son who has two apartment in Spain which he used to let to holiday-makers throughout the year, stopped doing so when the new regulations came into force. Hacienda don’t get any tax from him any more.
> 
> One of the apartment he keeps for his own holiday use, the other has been occupied by a friend, who is on a very low income, for coming up to 5 years, totally free of rent. The friend pays the Electric and water only. My son prefers to take the loss rather than comply with the new rules, which would result in a lot of inconvenience and much lower net income. He also does not have the maintenance and repairs costs associated with letting, damage, wear and tear, theft etc.


But if your son is a not a fiscal resident in Spain, but owns two apartments, he is legally obliged to pay tax whether he rents them out or not...

If rented, he would pay non-res tax on the income, if not rented he would pay non-res tax on the deemed rental value calculated on the catastral value.

So if Hacienda get no tax from him, he can expect a hefty tax bill and fine if they ever catch up with him.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> It started ten years ago in San Francisco. Three guys, who needed a bit of extra cash to pay the rent, set up inflatable matresses in their flat (that's where the Air bit comes from) and offered a posh breakfast. Then came the online booking app and the rest is history.
> 
> I have several empty-nester friends back in the UK who rent out their spare bedrooms now and again. In places like Oxford and Canterbury where hotel space is at a premium, it's a really useful service.
> 
> ...


OK, but as I said it didn't stay that way for long.

Actually in France it's perfectly legal and not discouraged to rent out a room in your home - and the income isn't taxed. It's been that way here for a long, long time. B&Bs on the other hand are subject to regulation.


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## cermignano (Feb 9, 2017)

In UK you can rent a room to a homeless person or someone who could not afford high rents as long as it does not exceed £400. You don't have to officially register. Over £400 you pay tax on the excess. It is to try to alleviate the dire housing situation


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Let's face facts here

If you are renting out your flat, house, room or shed for money then there has to be done regulation. Of course hotels are not happy about airbnb, and neither would I be if I was employing staff, complying with health and safety and constantly having to pay for upgrades to have other people rent out rooms, flats etc with no regulations at all. 

I do believe that BnB originated as pin money for farmers wives, and I have no problem with that. However I do think people are being a bit hypocritical, we have ourselves on several threads condemned plumbers, electricians etc who work under the radar, I do not see the difference between people offering rentals and plumbers offering cheap rates because they don't pay tax. Also, as soon as the first person dies from carbon monoxide poisoning, or falls from a balcony everyone will be asking why these places aren't regulated 

I like airbnb, I've used it several times when I've visited the U.K. i have no issue with it and clearly Hotels are leading the carrion call for regulations, but I do understand why.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

My own opinion is that there is a market for this kind of thing because there is a demand, just like Bla Bla cars, Uber (have you noticed how in in modern series from the US nobody calls a taxi anymore, they call their Uber driver?) etc. We're also fighting a losing battle against emails and WhtsApps and many other modernizations. The world spins and things change at the speed of light


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Overandout said:


> But if your son is a not a fiscal resident in Spain, but owns two apartments, he is legally obliged to pay tax whether he rents them out or not...
> 
> If rented, he would pay non-res tax on the income, if not rented he would pay non-res tax on the deemed rental value calculated on the catastral value.
> 
> So if Hacienda get no tax from him, he can expect a hefty tax bill and fine if they ever catch up with him.


Of course he pays the imputed tax (I complete the 410's) but that is a few hundred euros, 

( I wonder how many tax residents in Spain know that they too must pay the imputed tax on all properties they own in Spain which are in addition to their main residence and on any properties they own outside Spain i.e. worldwide.)


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Overandout said:


> But if your son is a not a fiscal resident in Spain, but owns two apartments, he is legally obliged to pay tax whether he rents them out or not...
> 
> If rented, he would pay non-res tax on the income, if not rented he would pay non-res tax on the deemed rental value calculated on the catastral value.
> 
> So if Hacienda get no tax from him, he can expect a hefty tax bill and fine if they ever catch up with him.


Of course he pays the imputed tax (I complete the 410's) but that is a few hundred euros, 

( I wonder how many tax residents in Spain know that they too must pay the imputed tax on all properties they own in Spain which are in addition to their main residence and on any properties they own outside Spain i.e. worldwide.)


QUOTE _he is legally obliged to pay tax whether he rents them out or not...
_ 
Not so, If a property is let then the imputed does not apply for the periods when the property is let.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Juan C said:


> Of course he pays the imputed tax (I complete the 410's) but that is a few hundred euros,
> 
> ( I wonder how many tax residents in Spain know that they too must pay the imputed tax on all properties they own in Spain which are in addition to their main residence and on any properties they own outside Spain i.e. worldwide.)


OK, I was not trying to be all high and mighty, but your previous post was a bit misleading. :wink:


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

EverHopeful said:


> Do you really believe that was what Airbnb was originally intended for? Even if it was (and I very much doubt it), it very quickly changed - pretty much as soon as it hit countries outside the US.
> 
> :rofl:


Yup, that is exactly what it was intended for - why not?

Nowadays you get all sorts advertising their properties, from established bread and breakfast types and turismo rural to luxury apartments in city centres, cabins in the woods to a spare room in a family house
Save​


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

cermignano said:


> In UK you can rent a room to a homeless person or someone who could not afford high rents as long as it does not exceed £400. You don't have to officially register. Over £400 you pay tax on the excess. It is to try to alleviate the dire housing situation


It would be interesting to know if this "exemption" applies in the case of holiday lets but I doubt it.

Spain has to be very careful in the application of the regulations.

If there is any form of fiscal concesion allowed it will potentially incite people who current rent out "legally" (meaning in accordance with the LAU) to stop and rent as a holiday let instead.

Given the current drive to minimise holiday lets and increase residential, I can't see how there could be any less tax payable than through a fully legal residential rental.

My personal opinion is that rent from holiday lets should be treated as an income like any other and declared as IRPF.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Megsmum said:


> Let's face facts here
> 
> If you are renting out your flat, house, room or shed for money then there has to be done regulation. Of course hotels are not happy about airbnb, and neither would I be if I was employing staff, complying with health and safety and constantly having to pay for upgrades to have other people rent out rooms, flats etc with no regulations at all.


But really the point of it is the level of regulation required, I don't think anybody is saying there shouldn't be and people who rent out do need to pay their share of tax and if they are sensible adults be covered by insurance.

But to hold a residential property up to the same standards as a hotel is ridiculous without applying the same rules to long term lets. Most of the regulation required should already exist under tenancy law and council zoning regs. Sure why not have a short term let register where you must show you meet the basic criteria, are paying your taxes and insurance and what's the problem?
There isn't.

And the hoteliers can jog on, tough for them and their greed but it is a different industry altogether.

Short term lets have always existed and they, up until now have not been this massive pit of liability claims and an health and safety issue so I don't particularly see that they are the real driving issue behind these reforms, because it blatantly isn't. And that should be the bigger issue.

Incidentally I think there should be higher standards and more regulation for those who offer a true bed and breakfast where they cater to you and are on hand. Things like food safety and liquor licenses and such but I still don't think they should be required to fit a/c, wifi, a fire escape, ramps or register at the cop shop for every guest.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Pazcat said:


> But really the point of it is the level of regulation required, I don't think anybody is saying there shouldn't be and people who rent out do need to pay their share of tax and if they are sensible adults be covered by insurance.
> 
> to hold a residential property up to the same standards as a hotel is ridiculous without applying the same rules to long term lets. most of the regulation required should already exist under tenancy law and council zoning regs. Sure why not have a short term let register where you must show you meet the basic criteria, are paying your taxes and insurance and what's the problem?
> There isn't.
> ...





I would suspect that many of those " sensible adults" don't pay tax!

Extremadura (my región) are looking at this and bringing in an additional level for rooms in ones honme... BUT many many people advertise complete houses and flats on airbnb.... that's not bnb that's fully blown holiday rentals and they also have different levels of regulations depending on what accommodations you are, so I would suggest this is a regional thing

Hoteliers can " jog" on because of their greed....... sorry TOTALLY Disagree . I'm no lover of people taking money from folks but that's a sweeping statement. Ask the chamber maids, chefs, cleaners how they feel about hoteliers jogging on when they go out of business as the hotel fails. I'm not saying hotels need protection but they clearly have higher overheads that Mrs Smith renting out her sons bedroom while he's at uní does not

I know the rules and regs are painful, we considered doing this ourselves, but the son the rules..... which we say to anyone coming on here who tries to flout them. Fighting for new rules is one thing..... deliberately flouting them is another.

I'm a Teacher, I work two days a week, I pay social security every month, I declare my earnings every quarter and then at tax time. I am pretty certain the thousands of teachers on Italki don't........ and I find that really really annoying... but hey hoy I can probably just " jog" on. My husband was a builder with his own firm, had to comply with rules and regulations, insurances etc.... often undercut by bob the builders friends who is a retired fireman.... cash in hand, no rules, no regs but cheaper...... does that mean companies like my husbands should " jog" on because he charges more 

So yes I think airbnb is good although all it's done is open up bnb to a mass market. Yes I do think BnBs should be regulated and yes I agree there should be different standards of regulations to cater for different people's needs and yes I want people to declare their income just like the rest of us. If it's pin money they'll pay no tax anyway........but when you look at Airbnb some property is €200+ a night for a whole house that's not PIN money


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> My own opinion is that there is a market for this kind of thing because there is a demand, just like Bla Bla cars, Uber (have you noticed how in in modern series from the US nobody calls a taxi anymore, they call their Uber driver?) etc. We're also fighting a losing battle against emails and WhtsApps and many other modernizations. The world spins and things change at the speed of light


I have adapted to Uber, works great. We used them all the time in Africa without a hitch. I can see how Airbnb appeals to young people but personally I would never take another holiday if I had to use them....I am getting old


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Airbnb is no longer about letting a room in your home to someone and providing breakfast. It is primarily about holiday rentals. Not only is it a tax issue, but it is leading to significantly increased house prices and residential rents in many areas. It's an absolutely massive global operation, folks and many have participated, and continue to do so, with a view to increasing income (sometimes significantly) without paying tax. Heck, there are individuals in Paris who have as many as 20 listings on Airbnb - clearly there is a need for regulation.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

What about the effect on the labour market of these new enterprises?
When we talk about the 'hotel lobby' we forget that very many people the world over , especially in my part of Spain, are employed by the 'hotel lobby' - waiters, cooks, chambermaids and so on. 

Very nice for the less well-off to supplement their income by renting out the spare room...bit if it puts people out of work?
We all benefit (or think we do) from new technologies and other innovations such as air bnb and so on but the impact on the labour market has been any thing but beneficial to the worker .Taxi drivers, postmen /women, people with zero hours or short term contracts, the gig economy.
Mail order, e-mail correspondence as against snail mail, online buying in general has had a serious impact on the high street retail trade.
Short term gains in convenience for the individual consumer or home based entrepreneur but the medium and long term effects on wider society should also be taken into account.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Isobella said:


> I have adapted to Uber, works great. We used them all the time in Africa without a hitch. I can see how Airbnb appeals to young people but personally I would never take another holiday if I had to use them....I am getting old


My daughter in Hove has limited space, so when we return as a "couple" we use Airbnb in hove, a short walk away.... £40 no breakfast but a nice room with ensuite... and yes clearly I'm being hypocritical as I use them because it's often more cost effective for me as a punter than the local hotel which charges £90 per night.... that's because I'm thinking of my purse... if she put her prices up... I'll be back to the hotel, however pi. Acutely aware , as in my previous post, this has an affect on the local Labour market



mrypg9 said:


> What about the effect on the labour market of these new enterprises?
> When we talk about the 'hotel lobby' we forget that very many people the world over , especially in my part of Spain, are employed by the 'hotel lobby' - waiters, cooks, chambermaids and so on.
> 
> Very nice for the less well-off to supplement their income by renting out the spare room...bit if it puts people out of work?
> ...


Absolutely 

I am still at dads and getting him geared up for winter. After mum died last year I was acutely aware of certain issues around the house, but sorting them out at that time would have been tactless and just plain wrong. I've been in 10 days in that time I've ordered 

New lights for dining room, kitchen lounge and a flood light for the garden...... all next day delivery without leaving the house

Two new runners for the hall and kitchen. Next day delivery 

Supply of bulbs for lights. Next day delivery 

He could chose on line, pay via PayPal for added protection and guaranteed next day delivery. 


Then We go to the local town for a bit of food shopping..... such a shame he says, so many shops closing down............... people are fickle.....and many, like me hypocrites


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Megsmum said:


> I would suspect that many of those " sensible adults" don't pay tax!
> 
> Absolutely, this can and should be fixed. No argument here.
> 
> ...


You are right it is not pin money, it's an income and needs to be treated as one, again no argument here but it just isn't the same industry and should not be held to hotelier standards because the hoteliers say so.
Like I say up until now there hasn't been any issue with short term lets, it's a solution to a problem that never existed in the first place. Sure crackdown on the tax evaders and I can't see the problem beyond that.

Other than that as previous posters have said and you yourself even considered it but presumably didn't follow through with it, I can see the legit owners not even bothering and they will lose more tax because of it.
All I can see happening is either more people flying under the radar or a whole lucrative industry in Spain failing.
People will stop buying holiday homes altogether if it becomes too complicated to rent them out when they are back in the UK, it's almost as if they haven't even thought this through.
Almost.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I'm constantly amazed at the hypocrisy surrounding tax - that and the selfishness and, yes, greed and the sense of entitlement that usually accompanies it.
However much we dislike it or find it painful, each citizen is obliged to pay whatever tax is levied by the democratically elected, legitimate government and to obey laws set in the usual democratic way by that government.
Tough if you can't afford a holiday home unless you slide under those rules. It's not a human right.
People moan about lack of local and national government services in the UK and Spain but don't seem to realise that the funding for these services comes from taxation and of course the amount of that devolved to local government here in Spain depends on the number of residents who sign on the padron.
Paying tax can be immediately beneficial. When we first arrived here we used a local garage for our car repairs. The owner insisted on cash in hand and didn't even give a paper and pencil receipt. So we switched to a taller, jointly Spanish/English operated, where IVA is paid and we get a proper invoice with full details of work done, part numbers and so on. When on a couple of occasions we've had problems with work done we can go back invoice in hand and ask for repairs. Ditto other work we've had done in the house.
Paying tax gives you a voice, a right to services. . But far too many people think the state is there to pay out, regardless of whether you've paid in. Socialism for the rich is an apt description of the very many subsidies and the support give to business, the bank rescue 2006 being the most obvious example. 
Nobody likes paying tax and I see nothing wrong in using such legitimate ways as currently exist to minimise your tax burden. But evasion and avoidance are not the same. Evasion is a crime. Period.


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## MalagaMike (Aug 16, 2017)

Do you not think that the " _democratically elected, legitimate governments_" in question should set the example and have a fair and just taxation system in place for all to adhere toin the first place? Do you not think that the average man or woman in the street earning an average wage and paying their share of tax, whether it be 20-30-40% or more are a bit disenfranchised by "citizens" wittering on about "shh you know who isn't paying tax on his spare room that he rents out once a week" when said "citizen" see's the "_democratically elected, legitimate government_" doing jack s**t about major corporations paying virtually NO Tax at all or doing deals with a nod and a wink behind closed doors. Until such time as the Tax rules that allow this kind of "avoidance" change don't expect any sympathy from a huge majority of Joe Public. 
The selfishness and greed you talk about starts at the top and is rife, you've only got to look at Sir Philip Green.....still a Sir!!! In 2010 the Government at the time brought him in as an advisor on tax and spending.....speaks volumes.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Megsmum said:


> My daughter in Hove has limited space, so when we return as a "couple" we use Airbnb in hove, a short walk away.... £40 no breakfast but a nice room with ensuite... and yes clearly I'm being hypocritical as I use them because it's often more cost effective for me as a punter than the local hotel which charges £90 per night.... that's because I'm thinking of my purse... if she put her prices up... I'll be back to the hotel, however pi. Acutely aware , as in my previous post, this has an affect on the local Labour market


I have used Airbnb here in Spain. The first time the whole thing fell to pieces and the owner ended up cancelling our reservation. Airbnb customer service got in contact with me and offered me a voucher for 175€ when strictly speaking the cancellation was my fault, but the owner was being "awkward" to say the least. We therefore went to León several months later to a completely refurbished flat, almost for free. Airbnb got in touch with me about 5 times and I was very impressed because if something similar to me had happened in a hotel (or rather turismo rural as we never go to proper hotels) I'm pretty sure I'd have been left with nothing.
However, I am in 2 minds about the whole thing like Megsmum. Yes jobs are going to be lost and the whole tax thing really has to be sorted out, but as far as I can see it's here to stay or some version of it is, and that's why it's so successful.
Isn't it similar to Easyjet, Uber, selling milk in petrol stations, email instead of sending a telegramme??? I used to give classes to employees of Kodak. Guess what? I'm not anymore. No, I go to HP and Sopra Steria.
Things change, jobs are lost, and others are created. Lives change, You can't dig your heels in an ignore it. You have to adapt, adjust and find your way, which is very often difficult and unpleasant but if you want to come out the other side, that's what has to be done.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Isobella said:


> I have adapted to Uber, works great. We used them all the time in Africa without a hitch. I can see how Airbnb appeals to young people but personally I would never take another holiday if I had to use them....I am getting old


I am also getting old. It was my anniversary this week (26 years, nothing compared to some people I know). We started taking about our retirementat lunch. How things change!
But as people have pointed out Airbnb isn't just renting a room in someone's flat anymore. They are some very classy places, without room service sure, but nice.

Save​


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

MalagaMike said:


> Do you not think that the " _democratically elected, legitimate governments_" in question should set the example and have a fair and just taxation system in place for all to adhere toin the first place? Do you not think that the average man or woman in the street earning an average wage and paying their share of tax, whether it be 20-30-40% or more are a bit disenfranchised by "citizens" wittering on about "shh you know who isn't paying tax on his spare room that he rents out once a week" when said "citizen" see's the "_democratically elected, legitimate government_" doing jack s**t about major corporations paying virtually NO Tax at all or doing deals with a nod and a wink behind closed doors. Until such time as the Tax rules that allow this kind of "avoidance" change don't expect any sympathy from a huge majority of Joe Public.
> The selfishness and greed you talk about starts at the top and is rife, you've only got to look at Sir Philip Green.....still a Sir!!! In 2010 the Government at the time brought him in as an advisor on tax and spending.....speaks volumes.


I'm not sure what your point is here other than to point out 
1) there are many definitions of a 'fair and just' taxation system
and 2) I think we all know how and by whom 'examples' should be set
and 3) the fact that wealthy people avoid tax does not morally justify the less well off not paying tax as both are in my view equally wrong 
and 4) I guess you are exhorting us to vote Labour as Corbyn has pledged to close the very many loopholes.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Megsmum said:


> My daughter in Hove has limited space, so when we return as a "couple" we use Airbnb in hove, a short walk away.... £40 no breakfast but a nice room with ensuite... and yes clearly I'm being hypocritical as I use them because it's often more cost effective for me as a punter than the local hotel which charges £90 per night.... that's because I'm thinking of my purse... if she put her prices up... I'll be back to the hotel, however pi. Acutely aware , as in my previous post, this has an affect on the local Labour market
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At the risk of straying off topic...

I get quite annoyed when I see the Facebook type posts saying that we should support local businesses rather than using big corporations / online purchasing, when it is the local business that, in some cases are causing their own demise.

I recently had to get some plumbing supplies at short notice to complete an urgent repair. I could have gone to Leroy Merlin and back in about an hour, but I decided to try to buy locally. Looking in the Yellow Pages (online of course) I found 4 plumbers supply shops within 5 Kms of my home, so I set off (in my car, too far to walk) and of course the first problem was parking as I refuse to double park, use disabled spaces etc.

The first shop I eventually reached was no longer open, instead it had a sign in the window saying that they had relocated to another area which was around 10 kms away. Probably not fair to blame them for out of date info on Yellow Pages, but not my fault either... so I went to the next place on my list; closed for vacation, the next place simply couldn't be found, no sign of it at the address given. The last place however was open and the (quite elderly) lady who was alone in the shop said that she was sure that they had what I was looking for but she didn't know where. I would have to wait for the "plumber" to return, he should be back in about an hour....

I went to Leroy Merlin (after having wasted about an hour and who knows how much petrol driving around my local area...)

If local businesses want to compete for business against Amazon and the big corporations, they are going to have to step up to the mark, and I'm not talking about the pricing, I was prepared to pay double the Leroy Merlin price in order to save some time, but eventually the effect was the opposite.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Overandout said:


> At the risk of straying off topic...
> 
> I get quite annoyed when I see the Facebook type posts saying that we should support local businesses rather than using big corporations / online purchasing, when it is the local business that, in some cases are causing their own demise.
> 
> ...


Looked at from one angle, the small local business may employ two or three people. Leroy Merlin will employ maybe more than a hundred local people. Other local businesses may depend on Leroy Merlin in various ways.
'Local' is a very wide term.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Things change, jobs are lost, and others are created. Lives change, You can't dig your heels in an ignore it. You have to adapt, adjust and find your way, which is very often difficult and unpleasant but if you want to come out the other side, that's what has to be done.


True, you can't stop change. But change should and can be managed so the least harm is done as a consequence of those changes.
Many people would say that not only is there no management of change, there is also very little consultation about changes with those most affected.
In the old days that was seen as the role of government and trades unions.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> there is also very little consultation about changes with those most affected.
> In the old days that was seen as the role of government and trades unions.


In Spain I would say that "consultation" does exist, but this is the problem! Why? because it only happens those who are "linked" in some way to the government and will benefit from the change. 
This is, of course, actually worse than no consultation as it is seen by the public (or at least those with enough interest and intelligence to read between the lines) that the consultations are crossing the line with collusion / corruption or whatever term applies to each case....


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Looked at from one angle, the small local business may employ two or three people. Leroy Merlin will employ maybe more than a hundred local people. Other local businesses may depend on Leroy Merlin in various ways.
> 'Local' is a very wide term.


Leroy Merlin also use small local businesses to do their installations. We've used them three times now - bathroom, kitchen worktop, and air conditioning. You get all the advantages of a big company with a decent customer services team and a reputation to protect (everything happens on the day they say it will), and the local tradesmen do a good job because they want to keep on Leroy's books. It probably works out more expensive but at least you know it's all above board and the tax is being paid.


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## MalagaMike (Aug 16, 2017)

mrypg9 said:


> I'm not sure what your point is here other than to point out
> 1) there are many definitions of a 'fair and just' taxation system
> and 2) I think we all know how and by whom 'examples' should be set
> and 3) the fact that wealthy people avoid tax does not morally justify the less well off not paying tax as both are in my view equally wrong
> and 4) I guess you are exhorting us to vote Labour as Corbyn has pledged to close the very many loopholes.


My point is perfectly clear and I assume guessing is not one of your strong points


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Alcalaina said:


> Leroys also use small local businesses to do their installations. We've used them three times now - bathroom, kitchen worktop, and air conditioning. You get all the advantages of a big company with a decent customer services team and a reputation to protect (everything happens on the day they say it will), and the local tradesmen do a good job because they want to keep on Leroy's books. It probably works out more expensive but at least you know it's all above board and the tax is being paid.


This is true, but if you dig deeper you will find (in most cases) that the consumer pays up front for the installation to the Leroy Merlin (or Mediamarkt or whoever).
The installer however gets paid 60 days after submission of the jobsheet signed by the customer.
Of course the installer gets less than you pay to Leroy Merlin, that's business, but your money doesn't reach the installer until about three months after you pay, in this time it sits in Leroy Merlin's account... hardly ethical.

At least the law has changed with respect to payment terms, before some installers were paid on 90 - 120 day terms, and of course they have no negotiation power against the big corps. Those are the terms, take it or leave it.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Overandout said:


> This is true, but if you dig deeper you will find (in most cases) that the consumer pays up front for the installation to the Leroy Merlin (or Mediamarkt or whoever).
> The installer however gets paid 60 days after submission of the jobsheet signed by the customer.
> Of course the installer gets less than you pay to Leroy Merlin, that's business, but your money doesn't reach the installer until about three months after you pay, in this time it sits in Leroy Merlin's account... hardly ethical.
> 
> At least the law has changed with respect to payment terms, before some installers were paid on 90 - 120 day terms, and of course they have no negotiation power against the big corps. Those are the terms, take it or leave it.


That's not good. But at least they will get paid eventually. Lots of builders went broke round here over the last few years because they did jobs for Ayuntamientos and never got paid at all ... ever. My friend's husband is still owed €30,000 by Jerez council for work he did in 2008!


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Alcalaina said:


> That's not good. But at least they will get paid eventually. Lots of builders went broke round here over the last few years because they did jobs for Ayuntamientos and never got paid at all ... ever. My friend's husband is still owed €30,000 by Jerez council for work he did in 2008!


Sad, but undoubtedly true. I know of people in very similar situations, even IVA reimbursements can take years to be paid.....

There's nothing like leading by example!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> That's not good. But at least they will get paid eventually. Lots of builders went broke round here over the last few years because they did jobs for Ayuntamientos and never got paid at all ... ever. My friend's husband is still owed €30,000 by Jerez council for work he did in 2008!


Our kennels were formerly a refuge for goatherds. In 2008 the PSOE led Ayto spent 250k € on reformas. The bill was one of many never paid.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

MalagaMike said:


> My point is perfectly clear and I assume guessing is not one of your strong points


As clarity is obviously not yours. Ignore list beckons


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## MalagaMike (Aug 16, 2017)

mrypg9 said:


> As clarity is obviously not yours. Ignore list beckons


Feel free to do so, I certainly won't miss you as all you seem to try and do is goad people who don't agree with you and from your posts it seems you either intentionally or otherwise pretend not to understand what they write and then snipe away at them for reasons only known to you.....sad really.


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