# I was planning to move there and buy a piso...then I read about squatters...



## WhyTry (Apr 15, 2017)

and everything changed!

Lately I read about a squatters manual where they basically teach each others how to play the law and occupy someone else's house as soon as the right owners leave for holidays or to go to the hospital. 

How people can allow that to happen in a developed Country? 

Could you please tell me if it is really that bad?

Thank you


----------



## WhyTry (Apr 15, 2017)

also, does it happen everywhere in Spain or mainly in some areas?

I read about a woman in her 90s living in Tenerife, her piso was squatted while she was in hospital and when she was ready to go home, she could no longer do that! 

Is there a Province where law is better for landlords and no pro-squatters?


----------



## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

It happens in Australia, too, don't ya know? The media carries the worst and often the most unusual stories.


----------



## WhyTry (Apr 15, 2017)

EverHopeful said:


> It happens in Australia, too, don't ya know? The media carries the worst and often the most unusual stories.


Hi!

Well, I read only very few stories about squatters here and they were squatting only in Melbourne, in empty homes.

In Spain, from what I read, I would be worries to go shopping, then going back home, I would be not sure if I could still enter my home.

But I am here to listen people living there...maybe it's not that bad. :fingerscrossed:


----------



## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Yes it happens constantly in every town village and city in Spain

Sometimes I get up in the middle of the night to go to the loo only to return to my bed and find a family of 11 gitanos sleeping head to toe on my memory foam mattress 

Frankly reading your post Spain is not for you. Indeed if you believe everything you read in newspapers or online best you stay in your house with doors locked and a tinfoil hat on your head


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

That there is a "squatters manual" doesn't surprise me and I expect there's an equivalent in all "developed countries".
I'm not sure if there are more squatters in Spain than in any other country. I did hear one story recently on the news. It wasn't exactly squatters, but here's what happened. A woman went on holiday and when she came back another family had moved in and rented the property. Her stuff had been moved out lock, stock and barrel. The other family were not to blame as they had just rented the property from someone that they thought owned the flat or was an agent. I don't know what happened in the end.


----------



## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

WhyTry said:


> Hi!
> 
> Well, I read only very few stories about squatters here and they were squatting only in Melbourne, in empty homes.
> 
> ...


There are squatter in other Australian cities, including Sydney.


----------



## WhyTry (Apr 15, 2017)

Pesky Wesky said:


> That there is a "squatters manual" doesn't surprise me and I expect there's an equivalent in all "developed countries".
> I'm not sure if there are more squatters in Spain than in any other country. I did hear one story recently on the news. It wasn't exactly squatters, but here's what happened. A woman went on holiday and when she came back another family had moved in and rented the property. Her stuff had been moved out lock, stock and barrel. The other family were not to blame as they had just rented the property from someone that they thought owned the flat or was an agent. I don't know what happened in the end.


I think its name is: manuales okupas

or something like that..you can find it easily for free on the web.

Here some more info:

https://www.idealista.com/news/inmo...ica-para-invadir-casas-y-que-pueden-hacer-los


and here you can see a brand new building totally trashed with lots of photos at the bottom:

https://www.idealista.com/news/inmo...-en-el-centro-de-madrid-arrasado-por-okupas-y


----------



## WhyTry (Apr 15, 2017)

EverHopeful said:


> There are squatter in other Australian cities, including Sydney.


okay, but here the Police will pack them in no time and vacate the property as soon as possible, while in Spain it seems they can abuse the system and it takes on average nearly 1 year before they kick their ass.

Meanwhile the owner must still pay the mortgage and water, or risk losing the property, commit a crime (if you cut off town water) while hoping they do not trash the property.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

WhyTry said:


> I think its name is: manuales okupas
> 
> or something like that..you can find it easily for free on the web.
> 
> ...


My post was trying to say things happen, but they happen everywhere. I don't think it's a real concern to have in mind when living in Spain.


----------



## WhyTry (Apr 15, 2017)

Pesky Wesky said:


> My post was trying to say things happen, but they happen everywhere. I don't think it's a real concern to have in mind when living in Spain.


At least someone got a new job:

Okupas: España se llena de ‘comandos desokupa’: Se ha metido mucha gente y es un descontrol. Noticias de España


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

So much depends on where you are. If you are on the costas and big cities, it is more likely because those are where you are likely to find the genuinely homeless and those who are looking for a "free-ride." Go to inland places, especially villages and small towns and you are quite likely to find that squatting is almost unheard of. However, in those inland places you are also mot likely to find very little employment for those who are not qualified and also lack language skills.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I've been on this forum for nearly seven years and I only remember one post from someone whose property had been occupied without consent. I honestly don't think it's a big problem.

There are groups who organise the occupation of empty business premises or empty blocks of flats for families who have been evicted because they couldn't pay their rent or mortgage. But they don't target private homes.


----------



## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I live in a very large town and I have known of a few cases of empty houses having been squatted, but with the exception of one case (which was someone from a Scandinavian country's holiday home, and once they found out the squatters were evicted within 2 weeks), the squatters have always gone for properties which had been repossessed by banks.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

WhyTry said:


> At least someone got a new job:
> 
> Okupas: España se llena de ‘comandos desokupa’: Se ha metido mucha gente y es un descontrol. Noticias de España


I hadn't heard about this, but as people have said it can depend on where you are. I live in the comunidad de Madrid so of course there are squatters, but they tend to be big office buildings public or private or there was a hotel in a street going off Puerta de Sol that was occupied at the time of the 15M camp. Nearer us a big depot, something to do with the railway was taken over. We went a couple of times to events that were held there and once used one of the rooms for a meeting.
In all cases the buildings had been empty for a long time and were not used by anyone.
I also have a friend that has been involved in building up an urban garden in an empty site between 2 buildings. It's been going for several years now (5?)
https://www.facebook.com/solarantoniogrilo/
They have the garden and also story time for kids, cinema in the summer, talks... Better than rats and rubbish.


----------



## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

WhyTry said:


> okay, but here the Police will pack them in no time and vacate the property as soon as possible, while in Spain it seems they can abuse the system and it takes on average nearly 1 year before they kick their ass.
> 
> Meanwhile the owner must still pay the mortgage and water, or risk losing the property, commit a crime (if you cut off town water) while hoping they do not trash the property.


Believe it or not, the most people in Spain come home to find that squatters haven't moved in while they were out.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Horlics said:


> Believe it or not, the most people in Spain come home to find that squatters haven't moved in while they were out.


I have the perfect preventative for keeping squatters from occupying the house when we out. We leave the m-i-l at home!


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Beats me how someone who is worried about squatters in Spain could ever have contemplated living in Australia with all those killer spiders and snakes everywhere.


----------



## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

I don't think it is common if you avoid half empty blocks where some are bank owned. My Cousin is caught up in one in Fuengirola. She downsized after her Husband died, they have not occupied her apartment but the block is unliveable with damage, drug dealers and general crime and vandalism. She is now staying with her Daughter in UK but it has dragged on for over two years!

This is similar and is in the next street to my cousins place.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Isobella said:


> I don't think it is common if you avoid half empty blocks where some are bank owned. My Cousin is caught up in one in Fuengirola. She downsized after her Husband died, they have not occupied her apartment but the block is unliveable with damage, drug dealers and general crime and vandalism. She is now staying with her Daughter in UK but it has dragged on for over two years!


Welcome back! You've been missed. 

Just out of interest what were these flats like when your cousin bought hers and how long ago? Presumably it was fine when she bought it. Why did it deteriorate so much, any ideas?


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Isobella said:


> I don't think it is common if you avoid half empty blocks where some are bank owned. My Cousin is caught up in one in Fuengirola. She downsized after her Husband died, they have not occupied her apartment but the block is unliveable with damage, drug dealers and general crime and vandalism. She is now staying with her Daughter in UK but it has dragged on for over two years!
> 
> This is similar and is in the next street to my cousins place.
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cIzFk49R-v4


Awful......my MIL lives in an area off London with many of the same issues.

Welcome back


----------



## dancebert (Jun 4, 2015)

Pesky Wesky said:


> My post was trying to say things happen, but they happen everywhere. I don't think it's a real concern to have in mind when living in Spain.


That things happen everywhere is irrelevant when assessing risk. It's the rate they happen, and the consequences if they do. Is the usual scenario for getting rid of squatters that you call the police and the squatters are gone in 3 days? Or is it you need a lawyer and it takes a year before the squatters are gone?


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

dancebert said:


> That things happen everywhere is irrelevant when assessing risk. It's the rate they happen, and the consequences if they do. Is the usual scenario for getting rid of squatters that you call the police and the squatters are gone in 3 days? Or is it you need a lawyer and it takes a year before the squatters are gone?


It seems that posts have said


It happens
Prevelance depends on area
There are different kinds of squatting
 private residencial property that is already being lived in.
abandoned residencial places
abandoned non residential places
?others?

 It's not something that happens with such a frequency in Spain that it needs to be something factored in to your list of things to look out for, although that could depend on where you're looking.
I bet if you Googled Squatters in Spain or Squatters rights in Spain you'd get some info


----------



## dancebert (Jun 4, 2015)

Pesky Wesky said:


> It seems that posts have said
> 
> 
> It happens
> Prevelance depends on area




I quoted your post because you said it happens and nothing more. I can't remember a discussion about a type or types of crime where somebody didn't take that position. I reply only to demonstrate (and educate, if needed) that rate and consequences of it happening are key to assessing risk. My question was rhetorical, used to show the impact of different consequences.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

dancebert said:


> I quoted your post because you said it happens and nothing more. I can't remember a discussion about a type or types of crime where somebody didn't take that position. I reply only to demonstrate (and educate, if needed) that rate and consequences of it happening are key to assessing risk. My question was rhetorical, used to show the impact of different consequences.


Rate of incidents is no guide to overall risk although for actuarial purposes insurance companies will ignore that fact.
Typical example: in one year the rate of break-ins to commercial and industrial premises in our UK town was extremely high. 99% of these were committed by one individual. He was apprehended, the rate went down dramatically.
Now a break-in is a break-in, true. But having one individual at large targeting premises committing one hundred crimes, usually over a short period and focused on a specific area, is quite different from having one hundred individuals committing one crime each, for many reasons.
As I've said before, if you live in a village that has never in decades experienced a house break-in and then your house is burgled, the impact on you as an individual is more shattering than being aware that it happens every day to other people elsewhere.
If you are going to consider every potential risk before deciding to move to Spain you should, logically, consider:

flash floods
earth tremors
mud slides
lightning strikes
snake bites
malaria from mosquito bites
traffic accidents
random murder by disturbed individual
street mugging

and loads more.
Plus nowadays increased risk of nuclear war and its effects, especially if planning to live near U.S. Nato bases in Andalucia.


----------



## andygrx (Feb 27, 2017)

A guy /SNIP/ booked a holiday flat managed by my BFF under a fake name /SNIP/ through Airbnb and then refused to move out or pay. He'd squatted in other London flats as we later found out but there he had connived a lease. Holiday lets are "licenses" and an eviction case gets heard in county court in 3 days vs a month or more. When he was served with the court papers he got violent, he actually called the police after beating up the landlord, but the police arrested him (and took out his 2 dogs & 5 cats too). So much for England. Stick to common-law countries if you don't like the idea of squatters. And forget San Francisco, CA too, they tell me.


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk


----------



## skip o (Aug 1, 2011)

This is a tangent but... I am a landlord in the US, so I poked around on buying a rental property in Spain. Holy moly, being a landlord in Spain would be awful in comparison. A nightmare tenant in Spain can drag out the eviction process a lot longer and be a much greater financial burden than a nightmare tenant in the US. In my town in the US, even if a tenant is really good at gaming the system they are eventually going to be physically removed by the sheriff in about two months as long as the landlord has been doing everything by the book, quickly. And the landlord doesn't need to pay any utilities on behalf of the tenant. Maybe it is rare, but I have heard of evictions taking 12+ months in Spain all the while the landlord needs to pay for the utilities. 

On a total tangent. In my town in the US it is legal for a landlord to ask for up to 1.5 months rent as a security deposit. Apparently in South Korea, the security deposit is about 50% of the value of the property you are renting. Yikes!


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

skip o said:


> This is a tangent but... I am a landlord in the US, so I poked around on buying a rental property in Spain. Holy moly, being a landlord in Spain would be awful in comparison. A nightmare tenant in Spain can drag out the eviction process a lot longer and be a much greater financial burden than a nightmare tenant in the US. In my town in the US, even if a tenant is really good at gaming the system they are eventually going to be physically removed by the sheriff in about two months as long as the landlord has been doing everything by the book, quickly. And the landlord doesn't need to pay any utilities on behalf of the tenant. Maybe it is rare, but I have heard of evictions taking 12+ months in Spain all the while the landlord needs to pay for the utilities.
> 
> On a total tangent. In my town in the US it is legal for a landlord to ask for up to 1.5 months rent as a security deposit. Apparently in South Korea, the security deposit is about 50% of the value of the property you are renting. Yikes!


There are good tenants and bad tenants everywhere. Likewise there are good landlords and bad landlords. On balance I'd rather live in a country where tenants' rights are protected, because as a rule they are in a worse place than property owners.


----------



## skip o (Aug 1, 2011)

It isn't an either/or situation. I'd rather countries were sensible about tenant rights and landlord rights, and rent control. etc. Spain has some pretty boneheaded laws about all of the above. Evictions taking 12+ months, landlords regularly keeping deposits for no reason, rent controls that don't adjust for inflation. The more I learn about laws here, the more I understand why Spain has one of the worst economies and some of the highest unemployment rates in Europe.


----------



## dancebert (Jun 4, 2015)

mrypg9 said:


> ... If you are going to consider every potential risk before deciding to move to Spain you should, logically, consider: ...


Just the sort of response I expect from those who dismiss concerns about risk with 'it happens everywhere'.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

dancebert said:


> Just the sort of response I expect from those who dismiss concerns about risk with 'it happens everywhere'.


Well, it does, doesn't it?


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> There are good tenants and bad tenants everywhere. Likewise there are good landlords and bad landlords. On balance I'd rather live in a country where tenants' rights are protected, because as a rule they are in a worse place than property owners.


I don't think you can generalise like that. True, there have recently in the UK been cases of horrendous treatment of tenants by landlords but not all landlords, especially in Spain, are Rachman types.

The correct type of legislation regarding renting is one where the rights of both parties are taken into account. Many people who rent property do so as a form of pension provision, here in Spain many people do so in order to fund a holiday home. 
On the whole, tenants here in Spain are a transient bunch and can do a moonlight and disappear leaving a trail of damage and unpaid bills. The main reason we have rented our property at under half the going rate for so many years is because we are the first of six or seven tenants who pay the rent and look after the property.

It seems to me from what I hear that many 'bad' landlords in Spain are quite simply ignorant of the law. I would NEVER be a landlord here but if I were I'd want bank references and general 'character' references and I'd check them out, as well as making sure I knew exactly what the law allows and doesn't.

Of course, the real need in the UK is more affordable housing to rent, social ownership and a distancing from the obsession with property 'ownership' as a means of saving for old age.


----------



## andygrx (Feb 27, 2017)

skip o said:


> This is a tangent but... I am a landlord in the US, so I poked around on buying a rental property in Spain. Holy moly, being a landlord in Spain would be awful in comparison. A nightmare tenant in Spain can drag out the eviction process a lot longer and be a much greater financial burden than a nightmare tenant in the US. In my town in the US, even if a tenant is really good at gaming the system they are eventually going to be physically removed by the sheriff in about two months as long as the landlord has been doing everything by the book, quickly. And the landlord doesn't need to pay any utilities on behalf of the tenant. Maybe it is rare, but I have heard of evictions taking 12+ months in Spain all the while the landlord needs to pay for the utilities.
> 
> 
> 
> On a total tangent. In my town in the US it is legal for a landlord to ask for up to 1.5 months rent as a security deposit. Apparently in South Korea, the security deposit is about 50% of the value of the property you are renting. Yikes!




This is true. "Holiday let" is a distinct sort of licence in England. In San Francisco and in much of the world you need to be super careful with references and more. In Spain even accepting reimbursement for the phone bill can create a tenancy that you'll have to buy out for a fortune. Even in Switzerland, capitalist bastion, it can take 2 years to get rid of a tenant -- who will have legal insurance that will pay their lawyers' bills while you have to pay your own.


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk


----------



## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Squatting was also a problem in the UK up to the 1st September 2012, now its a criminal offence to squat in a
residential building and is punishable subject to arrest, fine and imprisonment.

UK law states - an offence will be committed where a person is in a residential building as a trespasser having entered
it as a trespasser, knows or ought to know that he or she is a trespasser and is living in the building or intends to live
there for any period.

No doubt other European countries should look at using what's defined in English law for their model, as reasonable
grounds for making squatting a criminal offence in their countries.

Frankly - I'd be more worried about the consequences of Brexit for British Expats in Spain more than the unlikely
event of finding your home squatted on.


----------



## andygrx (Feb 27, 2017)

Williams2 said:


> In the UK, as from the 1st September 2012 its a criminal offence to squat in a residential building and is punishable
> subject to arrest, fine and imprisonment.
> 
> UK law states - an offence will be committed where a person is in a residential building as a trespasser having entered it as a trespasser, knows or ought to know that he or she is a trespasser and is living in the building or intends to live there for any period.




The penal law doesn't help when the licensee entered with consent. It's a civil case but the county court has to set a quick hearing in 3 days. On the other hand with an assured shirt hold tenancy eviction takes many months. 


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk


----------



## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

andygrx said:


> The penal law doesn't help when the licensee entered with consent. It's a civil case but the county court has to set a quick hearing in 3 days. On the other hand with an assured shirt hold tenancy eviction takes many months.
> 
> 
> Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk


The law was an ass in England before pressure mounted on MP's to sort out the so called 'Squatters rights mess'

Then things changed pronto !!! - It's the old saying - where there's a will, there's a way.

I've heard some people have successfully evicted squatters using trespass laws as the determining factor, as to
whether the Squatter had taken possession of the house legally or not.
Laws on Trespass are common in many countries.


----------



## GreenGreen88 (Apr 22, 2016)

Lol this is just silly. Ive lived here for three years, I know multiple people who have bought apartments, and nobody has had this issue. I can't imagine what kind of media outlet or friend of yours would blow this story up to you. What a truly bizarre concern.


----------



## GreenGreen88 (Apr 22, 2016)

skip o said:


> It isn't an either/or situation. I'd rather countries were sensible about tenant rights and landlord rights, and rent control. etc. Spain has some pretty boneheaded laws about all of the above. Evictions taking 12+ months, landlords regularly keeping deposits for no reason, rent controls that don't adjust for inflation. The more I learn about laws here, the more I understand why Spain has one of the worst economies and some of the highest unemployment rates in Europe.


CLEARLY you've never lived in New York City where everything you mentioned happens with regularity. They have super strong squatters rights. Landlords quite regularly kept my security deposits and charged outrageous fees from my security deposit for minor upkeep after I moved. Also Spain is like the United States, laws very from comunidad to comunidad.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Williams2 said:


> Squatting was also a problem in the UK up to the 1st September 2012 ...


Homelessness is a problem. Squatting is a solution. Not an ideal solution, obviously, but the only option for some.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

skip o said:


> It isn't an either/or situation. I'd rather countries were sensible about tenant rights and landlord rights, and rent control. etc. Spain has some pretty boneheaded laws about all of the above. Evictions taking 12+ months, landlords regularly keeping deposits for no reason, rent controls that don't adjust for inflation. The more I learn about laws here, the more I understand why Spain has one of the worst economies and some of the highest unemployment rates in Europe.


Renting laws had very little to do with the economy, crisis and current unemployment rates. Overconstruction, corruption at local and national level, bad banking practices, greed and shortsighted political practices did have an impact


----------



## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Homelessness is a problem. Squatting is a solution. Not an ideal solution, obviously, but the only option for some.


Especially as a consequence of the financial crisis, which also resulted in many thousands of vacant properties, some new, some incomplete - but a roof over the head for many families who otherwise would have been left without shelter.


----------



## skip o (Aug 1, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Renting laws had very little to do with the economy, crisis and current unemployment rates. Overconstruction, corruption at local and national level, bad banking practices, greed and shortsighted political practices did have an impact


Yes, overconstruction is a major part of the bad economy. I am sure many here will disagree with me but I think Spain, overall, is really bad at solving economic problems. Spain is about as bad at economic policy as the US is at health care policy. The renters & landlord laws are just one of the many examples. Alas, I don't think enough people in Spain can admit this so we will be doomed to greater, usually much greater than 10% unemployment for a long, long time.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

skip o said:


> Yes, overconstruction is a major part of the bad economy. I am sure many here will disagree with me but I think Spain, overall, is really bad at solving economic problems. Spain is about as bad at economic policy as the US is at health care policy. The renters & landlord laws are just one of the many examples. Alas, I don't think enough people in Spain can admit this so we will be doomed to greater, usually much greater than 10% unemployment for a long, long time.


If you were the Spanish government's ecomonic adviser, what would you be recommending? Greater liberalisation of the economy, or stricter regulation?


----------



## skip o (Aug 1, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> If you were the Spanish government's ecomonic adviser, what would you be recommending? Greater liberalisation of the economy, or stricter regulation?


In my opinion, it isn't about liberalisation vs regulation, it's just about different policies.
If I could wave a magic wand, I would...

- Make businesses post the name of their business and their business hours on their store front, to be within view 24 hours a day. A laminated sheet of paper posted by the door would suffice. This is business 101 to me, and I am shocked how few businesses do it. 
- Get rid of the siesta, as it is not only bad for business but bad for health. International businesses don't like dealing with the Spanish work hours (hence Barcelona and Madrid aren't even in the running to steal businesses away from London post-Brexit). If more businesses were open at the same time, it would encourage impulse buys. National and international travels can't always navigate the nonsensical businesses hours of each business. Heck, I buy many things from amazon US & UK because I don't can't figure out the businesses hours of some businesses of a city I have been living in for 2 years. I can't tell you how many times I have been to a store that is supposed to take their siesta at 2pm but they are already shutting down at 1:30. Or a store that is supposed to open back up at 4pm but actually opens back up at 5. 
- make it much cheaper and easier to be self employed so people aren't enticed to do it illegally. In the US it is so cheap to start a wedding photography business or web business, etc. If the business makes money, you pay taxes, everyone is happy. If you don't make money, you aren't deep in the hole. This encourages entrepreneurship. 
- crack down on the black market and tax dodgers, but do not threaten people who make simple mistakes with ridiculous fees. The fees for mistakes on the 720 are so stupidly high that it encourages people to dodge the whole thing. I have had Spanish accountants tell me that it is just easier to lie about everything. Almost every house I was interested in buying here came with some black market offer from the seller.
- make rent controls should adjust with inflation or adjust a certain % each year
- do something to keep people and businesses from sitting on empty properties for years and years. Raise property taxes? 
- make it easier and faster for the courts to settle disputes between landlords and tenants/squatters
- make it easier to do hard money lending, to fill in the gap when house flippers or mom & pop landlords can get loans from a bank. I have a bunch of friends who are hard money lenders and borrowers in the US, and I am under the impression that no one does this in Spain. At least, I have not met anyone in Spain who has even heard of such a practice
- tax the cruise ships to holy hell until the tourist numbers reach a level locals like. Right now it's about 2 euro a day, a pittance. 

This is off the top of my head, so it might be a goofy list.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

skip o said:


> In my opinion, it isn't about liberalisation vs regulation, it's just about different policies.
> If I could wave a magic wand, I would...
> 
> - Make businesses post the name of their business and their business hours on their store front, to be within view 24 hours a day. A laminated sheet of paper posted by the door would suffice. This is business 101 to me, and I am shocked how few businesses do it.
> ...


You would be quite happy to be out working/shopping when it is 60°C outside? The rest of the world (apart from US) doesn't go in for those monstrous malls using up stacks of energy maintaining artificial environments within and adding to the world's temperature rise. Please get real, the world cannot afford to continue the way it is going - eventually, it may be that opening and working hours will be from 9pm to 9am and not the other way round.


----------



## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

In 2016 Spain had a lower debt to GDP ratio than the US https://data.oecd.org/gga/general-government-debt.htm. The difference is that the US is a world power and therefore has access to more favourable interest rates, has its own country which is a major trading currency, and can do pretty much as much QE/money printing as it likes. Spain, OTOH, has to go cap in hand to fund its debt and has suffered unreasonable interest rates and conditions on that debt. Both the US and Spain actually have very high numbers of working poor and homelessness issues.

In short, what works for the US (at least for some) will not necessarily work for Spain. Apples and oranges.


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> You would be quite happy to be out working/shopping when it is *60°C outside*? The rest of the world (apart from US) doesn't go in for those monstrous malls using up stacks of energy maintaining artificial environments within and adding to the world's temperature rise. Please get real, the world cannot afford to continue the way it is going - eventually, it may be that opening and working hours will be from 9pm to 9am and not the other way round.


That's pushing it a bit isn't it Baldi?


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

skip o said:


> In my opinion, it isn't about liberalisation vs regulation, it's just about different policies.
> If I could wave a magic wand, I would...
> 
> - Make businesses post the name of their business and their business hours on their store front, to be within view 24 hours a day. A laminated sheet of paper posted by the door would suffice. This is business 101 to me, and I am shocked how few businesses do it.
> ...


It's not goofy at all, much of it makes a lot of sense, especially the bits about the self-employed and small businesses. 

But it does involve tighter regulation, making businesses do this or that. I thought being American you might be against so much government intervention.

What's a "hard money lender"? Do you mean things like payday loans, Wonga etc that have caused so many problems in the UK?


----------



## jdy (May 26, 2016)

Alcalaina said:


> But it does involve tighter regulation, making businesses do this or that. I thought being American you might be against so much government intervention.
> 
> What's a "hard money lender"? Do you mean things like payday loans, Wonga etc that have caused so many problems in the UK?


honestly just because someone is from the USA does not make them opposed to regulation.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

skip o said:


> In my opinion, it isn't about liberalisation vs regulation, it's just about different policies.
> If I could wave a magic wand, I would...
> 
> - Get rid of the siesta, as it is not only bad for business but bad for health. I thought it was recognised as being very beneficial to health???International businesses don't like dealing with the Spanish work hours (hence Barcelona and Madrid aren't even in the running to steal businesses away from London post-Brexit). I remember seeing the opposite actually especially as salaries are so low here.  I can't tell you how many times I have been to a store that is supposed to take their siesta at 2pm but they are already shutting down at 1:30. Or a store that is supposed to open back up at 4pm but actually opens back up at 5. It is a myth that when shops are closed everyone's taking a siesta - some people do and some don't (people take a siesta, not shops ). Many go to the gym, take English classes, go home, cook lunch and pick up the kids from school or do grocery shopping. Others just waste their time! But many Spaniards hate those hours too because it breaks up the day so much and means they get home late. However, in hot weather I would say it's essential to close at midday - especially this year. How many heat waves have we had already? I've counted 3 I think!
> ...


...


----------



## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> You would be quite happy to be out working/shopping when it is* 60°C outside*? The rest of the world (apart from US) doesn't go in for those monstrous malls using up stacks of energy maintaining artificial environments within and adding to the world's temperature rise. Please get real, the world cannot afford to continue the way it is going - eventually, it may be that opening and working hours will be from 9pm to 9am and not the other way round.


50c is about the top recorded temperature for Spain.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

bob_bob said:


> 50c is about the top recorded temperature for Spain.


47.3º a few days ago in fact

Una ola de calor en España de récord: hasta 47,3 grados - Sociedad - Periódico de Castilla-La Mancha, Noticias, Deportes | CLM24.ES


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Yes - I've been moved down one from 7 to 8.

I was in Jimena on that day.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

bob_bob said:


> 50c is about the top recorded temperature for Spain.


It is 48.6° actually but that is in the shade. Read the post, I said "outside", i.e. in the sun. I measured it recently when it was 36° in the shade and it was 63° in the sun.


----------



## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> You would be quite happy to be out working/shopping when it is 60°C outside?


Poetic license aside, why yes I would. In fact that is what people do in hot climates. They just get on with it, maybe start the day an hour or two earlier but I'll be damned if anyone ever said to me when I was working out in the heat that it's too hot lets go for a nap we will finish this up tonight.
It's an excuse that simply doesn't fly in my opinion, there may be many cultural reasons for taking a siesta but the heat excuse is pushing it, why then take one in winter?


----------



## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Pazcat said:


> Poetic license aside, why yes I would. In fact that is what people do in hot climates. They just get on with it, maybe start the day an hour or two earlier but I'll be damned if anyone ever said to me when I was working out in the heat that it's too hot lets go for a nap we will finish this up tonight.
> It's an excuse that simply doesn't fly in my opinion, there may be many cultural reasons for taking a siesta but the heat excuse is pushing it, why then take one in winter?


Australia has laws about ceasing work in the heat. Fancy working on a roof in the blazing sun when it's anything over 40 deg in the shade? If you do, then you haven't tried it. Extreme heat conditions can kill.


----------



## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

If only all workers in Australia had union reps huh?

I can assure for those who don't they don't get the choice, want money you got to work. I know well and truly what it is like.
As I said you just start earlier, get it done and you are home by 3pm. If you are lucky enough to be in a position to do so.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pazcat said:


> Poetic license aside, why yes I would. In fact that is what people do in hot climates. They just get on with it, maybe start the day an hour or two earlier but I'll be damned if anyone ever said to me when I was working out in the heat that it's too hot lets go for a nap we will finish this up tonight.
> It's an excuse that simply doesn't fly in my opinion, there may be many cultural reasons for taking a siesta but the heat excuse is pushing it, why then take one in winter?


There was a guy working outside the other day down Sevilla way and he died from the heat!


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> It is 48.6° actually but that is in the shade. Read the post, I said "outside", i.e. in the sun. I measured it recently when it was 36° in the shade and it was 63° in the sun.


Baldi - you must know it's pointless measuring temperature in direct sun?

All you are doing is measuring the temperature of the surface of the thermometer and
it'll vary drastically according to what kind of thermometer you are using. 

Imagine the difference in temperature between a car bonnet and a cushion in the sun. They'll be wildly different. One you could burn yourself on - the other would be warm 

Same with different thermometers.


----------



## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> There was a guy working outside the other day down Sevilla way and he died from the heat!


Terrible. 
Why was he working still at 9pm you have to ask?
How long had his day already been?
Precautions need to be taken by all involved, where they?
It could of been prevented I would guess.


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

I did a lot of roofing work in Spain. It's hot.

In June/July/August we started at 7 and finished at 3. I'd rather do that than be working on till 8. 

It's just as hot at 5 anyway when siesta finishes.


----------



## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

I would agree that the 'siesta' is cultural - but there are reasons for that. In France too it's very common for workers to take their lunch break from midday to 2 pm and for many shops and businesses to close down during those hours. When I lived in Spain way back when, the 'siesta' hours were longer in summer than in winter, but that was compensated by working longer into the evening (and for many total summer working hours were longer than winter hours). For those who commute, though, it certainly makes for long days away from home etc. OTOH I found it great, because it felt like you only ever worked half a day (sure, 2 x half-days each day  ) and it allowed me to unwind from a high-pressure job. Also, worker's cafes were set up to provide meals during those specific hours (those cafes provided cheap 2 or 3 course meals, often with no choices, and were able to do because they could totally organise the often long cooking times with minimal staff and consequently reduced overheads).

What I notice most is that those who complain most loudly about the 'siesta' hours in Spain (and indeed in France) are mostly anglophones who come from a 'live to work' culture where a person's value is often judged by their willingness to work extended hours (often with resultant reduced productivity). In France, for example, there is more of a 'work to live' culture, although that is certainly changing with globalisation and with eg. American views and values becoming significantly more widespread.


----------



## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

The Spanish complain as much as everyone else.

Spain's Prime Minister set to 'drop siesta' to shorten working day by two hours | The Independent

BBC - Capital - It's time to put the tired Spanish siesta stereotype to bed

Even the radio news said the other day over 100 companies in Catalunya(I think) signed a charter to work more sensible hours.



> What I notice most is that those who complain most loudly about the 'siesta' hours in Spain (and indeed in France) are mostly anglophones who come from a 'live to work' culture


Sounds like an expat construct to me, not only for reasons in the links above who are clearly not anglophones but there is no way you can say that spending the majority of your day away from your family to the detriment of your health is not a live to work culture.

I actually like spending time with my family.
Failing that the pub.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pazcat said:


> *The Spanish complain as much as everyone else.*
> 
> Even the radio news said the other day over 100 companies in Catalunya(I think) signed a charter to work more sensible hours.
> 
> ...


*Evidence please*

*and your post isn't an expat construct?*

For some people spending the day away from family would probably be most welcome, not only in Spain but also in UK - think of those who spend several hours in the pub after work before going home. And who's to say that spending time away from family is detrimental to one's health? do you have any evidence to back that up?


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Having now worked in various countries, I would say that Spain has the strongest "live to work" culture than most.

The perception that the siesta gives people time with their families is totally false, with most office based workers doing 10 - 12 hour days (without overtime) and no extended lunch break. Supposedly, my office hours are shorter in the summer, during July and August we have a six hour day, meaning that we leave at 14.30 or 15.00 and the normal lunch allowance is not paid as it is supposed that we eat at home.

So far I have managed to leave the office before 6pm just once in July...... 
Spain now works in an international environment, you simply cannot say to customers and partners in the Midle East or Northern Europe that you are not available after 14.30.

By the way, what has this got to do with buying a flat or squatters?


----------



## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Clicky the linkys baldi.
Rajoy not good enough for you?

If not it is evident in all the business that disregard the siesta as it is.
There is an awful lot of generalisation when it comes to siesta time but if stats in the links are correct 60 percent of Spanish don't even have one.

I have not been here as long as some but during that time there is an almost never ending debate on dropping the siesta in Spanish media, seems to me that is evidence enough.


----------



## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> There was a guy working outside the other day down Sevilla way and he died from the heat!


Yes, heat can be dangerous especially for those who have health issues or the elderly. The junta put out warnings. Young babies are also vulnerable.
There was an item yesterday on BBC which said the temperature in Córdoba was 47.5. I wonder how tourists cope. We spent some time in Sevilla and even sightseeing takes it out of you, it was around 43C. Most afternoons we sat inside.

The worse part of having a siesta for workers must be for those who don't live on the doorstep and have to travel twice a day.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jdy said:


> honestly just because someone is from the USA does not make them opposed to regulation.


Sorry, I was guilty of stereotyping. But generally, isn't there more of a resistance to government intervention in the US than in Europe? That's what we're always hearing, anyway.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Pazcat said:


> Terrible.
> Why was he working still at 9pm you have to ask?
> How long had his day already been?
> Precautions need to be taken by all involved, where they?
> It could of been prevented I would guess.


His working day was 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. He was working with hot asphalt on the highway. The temperature peaked at 43ºC and was still 39ºC at 9 p.m. The UGT union is suing the construction company, Maygar, for corporate manslaughter, because construction workers in Sevilla (one of the hottest places in Europe) are only supposed to work from 7.30 a.m. till 2.30 p.m. in summer.


----------



## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> *Evidence please*
> 
> *and your post isn't an expat construct?*
> 
> For some people spending the day away from family would probably be most welcome, not only in Spain but also in UK - think of those who spend several hours in the pub after work before going home. And who's to say that spending time away from family is detrimental to one's health? do you have any evidence to back that up?


Most people in the UK can no longer afford to spend several hours in a pub after work 

Pubs are a dying tradition in the UK with hundreds closing each week.


----------



## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

What is an "expat construct" 

Does Spanish time play a role? If Spain went to GMT, would that not mean that it would be hotter at midday than is currently the case? 

Let's be honest, though, everything changes over time - even in Spain (and things have actually changed drastically in Spain over recent decades).

I sometimes wonder whether with climate change those in southern Europe will soon find themselves starting work a couple of hours or more earlier.


----------



## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> It is 48.6° actually but that is in the shade. Read the post, I said "outside", i.e. in the sun. I measured it recently when it was 36° in the shade and it was 63° in the sun.


Evidence please, I can't find proven evidence of 60c in Spain.


----------



## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Back to squatting. About 25 years ago we were looking for a property on CDS. Spent 3 weeks looking at rubbish. Saw a private add in Sur and arranged to see it on our way airport. A villa built in style of moorish palace! Price was about £50,000. Met old Spanish man outside plot and on the lane was mounds of rubble, old furniture, clothes, all sorts. Said they had just managed to get hippy type squatters out. 
Place was a mess, filthy, unmodernised but fantastic potential. He told us it was built by an American woman who had eventually left through Ill health. Amazing place when you looked past the Filth and broken stuff. The kitchen worktops were stone and just (torn) curtains for cupboards. The Top terrace in the tower had views of the whole coast and Africa, however that needed total floor replaced too. Downstairs was an inner patio with domed stained glass roof and a moorish fountain. Some windows were three floors high.

I had a yes but no moment our not being there all the time and the cost of refurb ruled it out. Have never forgotten it and it is/was? Still visible from the viewing point at the shrine in Mijas. Have recently had a monthly email from Viva, which I rearely read but the header was this very same villa in a better state....worth a look.

4 Bedroom Villa for sale in Las Lomas de Mijas, Mijas - â‚¬675,000


----------



## GreenGreen88 (Apr 22, 2016)

Isobella said:


> Back to squatting. About 25 years ago we were looking for a property on CDS. Spent 3 weeks looking at rubbish. Saw a private add in Sur and arranged to see it on our way airport. A villa built in style of moorish palace! Price was about £50,000. Met old Spanish man outside plot and on the lane was mounds of rubble, old furniture, clothes, all sorts. Said they had just managed to get hippy type squatters out.
> Place was a mess, filthy, unmodernised but fantastic potential. He told us it was built by an American woman who had eventually left through Ill health. Amazing place when you looked past the Filth and broken stuff. The kitchen worktops were stone and just (torn) curtains for cupboards. The Top terrace in the tower had views of the whole coast and Africa, however that needed total floor replaced too. Downstairs was an inner patio with domed stained glass roof and a moorish fountain. Some windows were three floors high.
> 
> I had a yes but no moment our not being there all the time and the cost of refurb ruled it out. Have never forgotten it and it is/was? Still visible from the viewing point at the shrine in Mijas. Have recently had a monthly email from Viva, which I rearely read but the header was this very same villa in a better state....worth a look.
> ...


It sure looks like someone made a good investment renovating that one! 675,000 from 50,000!


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

bob_bob said:


> Evidence please, I can't find proven evidence of 60c in Spain.


I'm with you on this one - 'in the sun' temperatures don't count since official figures are always shade.

Neither do farmacia thermometers since they are usually in full sun as well


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> I'm with you on this one - 'in the sun' temperatures don't count since official figures are always shade.
> 
> Neither do farmacia thermometers since they are usually in full sun as well


Out of interest I was tempted to find out how hot it was in the sun since that is where one often finds people working as well as at leisure so I suspended a digital thermometer out in the middle of the patio (i.e. away from walls, etc to get a better idea) and it gave me 63° when it was merely 36° in the shade.


----------



## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Whilst official temperatures are always in the shade, I do think there is value in knowing how hot it is in the sun - especially given that it's generally much hotter. I also think it's a valid measurement to have for those who are working out in the sun.


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

EverHopeful said:


> Whilst official temperatures are always in the shade, I do think there is value in knowing how hot it is in the sun - especially given that it's generally much hotter. I also think it's a valid measurement to have for those who are working out in the sun.


...but unfortunately it's impossible to measure in any sensible way.

ETA this chap (unsurprisingly) explains it better than me (although using the same method). 



> We are unable to define the concept of temperature for a space that is in direct sunlight. If we try to measure temperature in such a region, by putting a thermometer in the sunlight, we'll get a different answer depending on the kind of thermometer.





> On a hot sunny day, put your hand on the metal lid of a car and you can get a bad burn. The metal is far hotter than is the air, because it is absorbing energy directly from the sunlight far more rapidly than the air is absorbing energy.
> 
> "In sunlight" there is not a single temperature. ...


----------



## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

jimenato said:


> ...but unfortunately it's impossible to measure in any sensible way.
> 
> ETA this chap (unsurprisingly) explains it better than me (although using the same method).


Yet you will often find temps published for airport runways and the like (eg. when the surface temperature - NOT the space) is so high planes cannot take off.

I'm sure it's also 'impossible' to accurately measure 'feels like' temperatures, but the weather bureaus do so.

Even the official temps you get (which as we all know are in the shade) are only true for the specific location where they are taken. However, they do give you at least an idea and they do allow for comparisons over time.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

EverHopeful said:


> *Yet you will often find temps published for airport runways and the like (eg. when the surface temperature - NOT the space) is so high planes cannot take off.*


Sorry, but that is the air temperature as measured close to the runway since hot air expands and if the air is already too hot there will be insufficient expansion in the jet engine to give sufficient propulsion to achieve safe take-off speeds. Military aircraft use a water methanol injection into the engine to overcome this since, they quite clearly can't say "Hold on chaps can we delay the next stage of the war until it cools down a bit?"

While it can be true that in some locations the tarmac on the runway is too hot and will stick to the aircraft tyre, that is not normally for delaying take-off.


----------



## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> Out of interest I was tempted to find out how hot it was in the sun since that is where one often finds people working as well as at leisure so I suspended a digital thermometer out in the middle of the patio (i.e. away from walls, etc to get a better idea) and it gave me 63° when it was merely 36° in the shade.


Good point, makes you realise how much our skin absorbs. Even on our wall uk goes up amazingly in full sun. Today 28c but 42c in the sun.


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

EverHopeful said:


> Yet you will often find temps published for airport runways and the like (eg. when the surface temperature - NOT the space) is so high planes cannot take off.
> 
> I'm sure it's also 'impossible' to accurately measure 'feels like' temperatures, but the weather bureaus do so.
> 
> Even the official temps you get (which as we all know are in the shade) are only true for the specific location where they are taken. However, they do give you at least an idea and they do allow for comparisons over time.


Yes, measuring the temperature of the surface of something is possible - they do it at Grand Prix circuits. 

What you are doing by placing a thermometer in direct sun is measuring the temperature of the surface of the thermometer. This will vary depending upon the type of thermometer. 

In direct sunshine it might read anything between the temperature of your T shirt (maybe a few degrees higher than air temperature) up to or more than the temperature of a car bonnet, and anything in between.

Basically it can't be done.

Trying to measure the temperature in direct sunlight is meaningless.


----------



## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> Sorry, but that is the air temperature as measured close to the runway since hot air expands and if the air is already too hot there will be insufficient expansion in the jet engine to give sufficient propulsion to achieve safe take-off speeds. Military aircraft use a water methanol injection into the engine to overcome this since, they quite clearly can't say "Hold on chaps can we delay the next stage of the war until it cools down a bit?"
> 
> While it can be true that in some locations the tarmac on the runway is too hot and will stick to the aircraft tyre, that is not normally for delaying take-off.


Why are you sorry? Ah, yes, that's a Brit (and I'm led to believe) a US thing. It's also, sadly, overused by women in the workplace in Oz.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

EverHopeful said:


> Why are you sorry? Ah, yes, that's a Brit (and I'm led to believe) a US thing. It's also, sadly, overused by women in the workplace in Oz.


I apologised because I was going to disagree with your post, nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> I apologised because I was going to disagree with your post, nothing more, nothing less.


Why is that a reason for an apology? You are entitled to disagree - without apologising


----------



## Yorick (Jul 4, 2017)

I've just read through this thread and it makes no sense.

Which country or area are these supoosed squatters in ?


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Yorick said:


> I've just read through this thread and it makes no sense.
> 
> Which country or area are these supoosed squatters in ?


It has drifted a bit...... but the squatters are in Spain........ though the advice was that although it can be a problem, it's no more of a problem than anywhere else in the world, & not as bad as in some places......


----------



## skip o (Aug 1, 2011)

The other day my wife passed a neat 110 year old property here in Barcelona and looked into it's history. The articles she found mentioned some serious squatter problems.

"Poco después de marcharse los primeros okupas vinieron otros y siguen llegando. Los últimos entraron hace unas semanas. Rompieron los ladrillos con los que se había tapiado una de las entradas desde la calle Vallirana y entraron. Los vecinos, asustados por el ruido, llamaron inmediatamente a los Mossos d'Esquadra, para cuando llegaron ya estaban dentro. Imposible echarlos."

Una anciana de 81 años vive asediada por okupas


----------

