# Spanish tax inspectors look to social networks in bid to find fraudsters (merged)



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

and about time too imo

Spanish tax inspectors look to social networks in bid to find fraudsters | In English | EL PAÍS



> From now on, the Spanish Tax Agency will intensify its use of social networking sites such as Facebook in its fight against fraud.
> Inspectors will search the internet for information about suspected tax dodgers, including data about their family ties and professional contacts that could shed light on their movements, particularly any undeclared business activities.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> and about time too imo
> 
> Spanish tax inspectors look to social networks in bid to find fraudsters | In English | EL PAÍS


Good grief, I wouldn't have thought it was so difficult to find people dodging taxes. Go to any poligono industrial and ask to see the receipts book of any number of businesses! Round up a group of teachers giving private classes!


----------



## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

This is why we posters have to follow the rules of the site in regards to giving information about illegal activity and further more why posters should be very careful about what they choose to publish online.

We already know that some posters with seemingly governmental links post information to help expats out on this site so it is safe to say that websites like this can easily be monitored.


----------



## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Look at list of people registered on the Spanish health system , and foreign citizens register


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Good grief, I wouldn't have thought it was so difficult to find people dodging taxes. Go to any poligono industrial and ask to see the receipts book of any number of businesses! Round up a group of teachers giving private classes!


facebook pages are a good one though

one local FB group would have hardly anyone advertising their services if the tax man checked them all out

I was informed a few days ago of someone here who I guessed was working on the black, has a FB page & a website would you believe! - I knew they had been a year ago.........but because they get a lot of work I thought they might have gone legal by now, especially since the low start was introduced...

apparently they can't - mainly because they - the family - goes back to the UK to sign on every few weeks & if they went legal here they'd lose all their benefits there......


3 years they've been here

if I knew this as an absolute fact I'd report them - though I have no reason at all to doubt the person who told me, I'd want first hand knowledge before going that far


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

extranjero said:


> Look at list of people registered on the Spanish health system , and foreign citizens register


That seems so obvious - I know of any number of people who don't declare income but are on the health system - mostly pensioners but some of them earn cash as well.

Actually I remember something from a few years ago - didn't a whole lot of people get deleted from the health system because of some sort of irregularity?


----------



## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I can't see anything to complain about in whatever tactics the tax authorities use to combat fraud and tax evasion. I feel much the same about it as I do about CCTV - nobody who isn't doing anything wrong has anything to fear from it.


----------



## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Dream on, how many fraudsters on social media sites use their correct details, well if they do they won't be fraudsters for long……………………...


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Hepa said:


> Dream on, how many fraudsters on social media sites use their correct details, well if they do they won't be fraudsters for long……………………...


You'd be surprised - there are simply loads advertising for work.

Just take a look at the 'stuff for sale' groups - I know for a fact that many people advertising there ('man with a van', etc.) are not legal!


----------



## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

snikpoh said:


> You'd be surprised - there are simply loads advertising for work.
> 
> Just take a look at the 'stuff for sale' groups - I know for a fact that many people advertising there ('man with a van', etc.) are not legal!




Going after the minnows are they, of course so, the big fish are too much of a challenge, lets wait and see.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> facebook pages are a good one though
> 
> one local FB group would have hardly anyone advertising their services if the tax man checked them all out
> 
> ...


If you feel that way you should report them. If there's no truth in it they won't get into any trouble, will they?


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Hepa said:


> Going after the minnows are they, of course so, the big fish are too much of a challenge, lets wait and see.


I'm in two minds about this. Whilst the biggies are obviously doing a lot of damage, there are so many people working on the black or businesses that are paying half and half that they are doing a lot of damage too. Thoughts on this ...

If the taxes were lower and above all for self employed, there was just a more reasonable system, more people would find it doable...

I'm glad people have had the opportunity to avail themselves of the low self employed rates. However what about meeeeeeeeee?! Couldn't my rates go down too? Just because I'm not newly self employed I have to pay top rate. Very annoying.

A lot of people find it very difficult to pay the self employed rate. I do too, but I pay it, so it annoys me when I see people (in my case teachers) advertising lower rates, on the same web page as me, the reason being they don't pay taxes! Very very annoying. So yes, I think the tax man should go after the minnows too. However, I think the rates should be brought down to a reasonable level for everyone, give it a year, and then have a crackdown.

I think they should train a thousand more tax inspectors, give people plenty of warning to put their affairs in order, even have (another) amnesty, but then let them loose!! Get serious about it

The biggies who are caught should have to pay back what they stole. As far as I understand this is not the case??


----------



## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

I would have thought finding the estimated 95% of those who should have made the form 720 declaration but did not, would be a very easy step. * And on that the minium fine is 10,000 plus up to 150% of the asset not declared.* A nice little earner there Roddy !


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

*Big brother is watching you!*

Spanish tax inspectors look to social networks in bid to find fraudsters


> From now on, the Spanish Tax Agency will intensify its use of social networking sites such as Facebook in its fight against fraud.
> 
> Inspectors will search the internet for information about suspected tax dodgers, including data about their family ties and professional contacts that could shed light on their movements, particularly any undeclared business activities.
> 
> ..Tax inspectors already resort to social networks for signs of assets that do not correspond with suspected evaders’ income statements. But now, investigators will take their search further. The agency is also planning to use special computer programs to trawl the web for more comprehensive information about their targets.


----------



## teatime (Feb 12, 2015)

That's why I call it 'Noseybook' instead of Facebook. It's funny how people will talk in hushed tones when discussing personal matters in public, but seem happy to scream about their holidays, car, job, nights out, etc, etc. online where anyone can read it!

I've been in Spain for over 5 years now and my Facebook status still says i'm in the UK! Not because I want to dodge anything, in fact I AM registered for tax here as a small business owner, but the fact that I don't feel the need to shout to all and sundry my personal goings on. I see the whole "look at me having a great time..." aspect of social media pretty vulgar to be honest. I use it for remembering birthdays and keeping in touch. Personal conversations can be had on Skype or via email, I don't feel the need to rub anyones faces in it!


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lok at this thread Alca 

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...look-social-networks-bid-find-fraudsters.html


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

I just merged the two together


----------



## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

I find "Spanish tax inspectors look to social networks in bid to find fraudsters" as convincing as the rumours which do the rounds that the tax inspectors are following up on the 'for rent' notices outside apartments/houses. 

My tax consultant told me some time ago that Malaga Province had 4 inspectors checking the details of property transfer in the Province, and thus the chance of anyone being found not declaring correctly was slight, especially if it was small scale.

I cannot believe Hacienda have staff to spare to investigate facebook etc.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

larryzx said:


> I find "Spanish tax inspectors look to social networks in bid to find fraudsters" as convincing as the rumours which do the rounds that the tax inspectors are following up on the 'for rent' notices outside apartments/houses.
> 
> My tax consultant told me some time ago that Malaga Province had 4 inspectors checking the details of property transfer in the Province, and thus the chance of anyone being found not declaring correctly was slight, especially if it was small scale.
> 
> I cannot believe Hacienda have staff to spare to investigate facebook etc.


one person trawling facebook could catch 1000s more than 100 walking the streets

on one facebook group local to me I'd be willing to bet that 50% or more of the 'businesses' advertising their services are working on the black - they have facebook business pages & even websites - no attempt to hide at all



as soon as you ask for a proper receipt though, they 'can't do that job' 

the group has over 5000 members - maybe 75% of those advertise some kind of business service - do the sums


----------



## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

I don’t doubt that your guess what Hacienda might do is as good as anyone else’s.

However, if they really wanted to efficiently catch those who are making the rest of us pay higher taxes than necessary, then the 95% who chose not the make the 720 declaration would bring in millions. Minimum fine 10,000 € , then 5,000 for each asset (after 2) not declared, plus up to 150% of the asset not disclosed.

And a substantial reward and anonymity for informing on the cheats, and everyone's neighbours know who they are, would do wonders for the coffers.


----------



## maxd (Mar 22, 2009)

Can you imagine the distraction of the employee who has to look on Facebook everyday. I suspect they have a target and then go and check their page out, not randomly checking this and that.

A lot of tax office stuff is just a stunt, they will actively go and fine some taxi drivers with the media filming to try and scare all the other taxi drivers. This Facebook story could just be more of their scare tactics.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

maxd said:


> Can you imagine the distraction of the employee who has to look on Facebook everyday. I suspect they have a target and then go and check their page out, not randomly checking this and that.
> 
> A lot of tax office stuff is just a stunt, they will actively go and fine some taxi drivers with the media filming to try and scare all the other taxi drivers. This Facebook story could just be more of their scare tactics.


I suspect they already know who they are going after, and just use social media to look for evidence. The biggest fish caught so far was Jorge Lorenzo, the motorcycle champion, who was putting up photos of his new luxury villa in Mallorca.


----------



## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

It is as simple as checking the list of those signing on the foreigners register , or obtaining residencia.
Why can't the names be automatically transferred to the Hacienda at the time of registering ?
No need to go trawling on Facebook etc.
I agree with Larryzx-hunt those down who didn't submit their 720 s.
It's annoying to know these smug fraudsters get on happily with their lives while we worry about how to fill it in!


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

extranjero said:


> It is as simple as checking the list of those signing on the foreigners register , or obtaining residencia.
> Why can't the names be automatically transferred to the Hacienda at the time of registering ?
> No need to go trawling on Facebook etc.
> I agree with Larryzx-hunt those down who didn't submit their 720 s.
> It's annoying to know these smug fraudsters get on happily with their lives while we worry about how to fill it in!


If they were only looking for non Spaniards I agree they could look at the foreigner's register, although it's likely that those who are avoiding paying taxes are not registered.
However they aren't just trying to catch foreigners, in fact the example they give in the article is of a very high profile bike racer Jorge Lorenzo.
Why did you think it was directed at foreigners?


----------



## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

It's not, but it is a easy way to check on a large chunk of the population.
These days there are less people who are not registering, because rules are stricter now.
No residency- no healthcare etc it's harder to live under the radar now.
The Hacienda must already have the means of checking Spanish people for tax.
I was merely stating that there is a simple way of checking who should be paying tax.


----------



## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

In Canada, as a non-resident of Canada with Canadian income, the law is that I have to file an income tax return every year, whether or not I owe taxes in Canada. As a resident of Canada, you have to file if you owe tax, and if you don't file but owe taxes you're subject to a fine.

From what I understand in this thread, you're saying there are no similar laws in Spain? Or are you guys saying that some people ignore the laws?


----------



## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

A tax return should be filed even though a person is under the threshold, but many don't


----------



## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

extranjero said:


> A tax return should be filed even though a person is under the threshold, but many don't


So you have to file by law in Spain, whether you owe taxes or not?


----------



## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Yes, I think so, and if I'm wrong Larryzx will tell us !


----------



## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

extranjero said:


> Yes, I think so, and if I'm wrong Larryzx will tell us !


LOL! Thank you for letting me know.


----------



## StewartL (Sep 5, 2013)

extranjero said:


> It is as simple as checking the list of those signing on the foreigners register , or obtaining residencia.
> Why can't the names be automatically transferred to the Hacienda at the time of registering ?


It is possible that the details are automatically sent to Hacienda from the register of foreigners. I went to Hacienda last week to obtain a form 30 in order to register for tax. However the officer there said I was already on their system and actually showed me the screen with my details on it.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

StewartL said:


> It is possible that the details are automatically sent to Hacienda from the register of foreigners. I went to Hacienda last week to obtain a form 30 in order to register for tax. However the officer there said I was already on their system and actually showed me the screen with my details on it.


Is it not the case that as soon as you get an NIE (número de identidad extranjero) you are automatically in the Hacienda's system? That's basically what the NIE is for.


----------



## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> Is it not the case that as soon as you get an NIE (número de identidad extranjero) you are automatically in the Hacienda's system? That's basically what the NIE is for.


One does not need to be resident in order to have an NIE. For example, if one wants to buy a property, open a bank account (although some say it can be done with one in some banks) etc. then one needs an NIE. When one becomes resident, and as an EU citizen registers on the EU citizens Register, then if they have an NIE they retain it, if not one is issued. The same happens with a non EU citizen if they get Residencia.

I do not believe there is at present any automatic liaison between the Police, Hacienda or the town halls (padron).


----------

