# Social Security U.S. and UK retirement pension



## mancklin (Oct 6, 2013)

I recently retired after working in a U.S. public library system for 20 years. During that time I was careful also to keep up National Insurance payments in the UK so that I would be able to draw a UK pension. I have now just reached pensionable age in both countries. 
When filling out the U.S. Social Security form, i was asked whether I would be seeking benefits in any other country. I said yes, that I would be applying for a U.K. pension.
I have now been asked in for an interview at the local Social Security office.
I plan to move back to the UK in very near future, and my plans have been predicated on being able to receive both pensions. I am in the middle of buying a house in my home town!
Please tell me they are not going to deny me my U.S. Social Security payments! I was born and raised in the U.K. but am also a U.S. citizen.
Don't know why the little icons say I am originally from the US--I am a brit, and living in NYC, not Ne


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

No, you will not be denied U.S. Social Security benefits if you qualify. However, the U.S. has something called the Windfall Elimination Provision which reduces your Social Security retirement benefits by up to 50% if you receive a foreign pension and in certain other cases. Because of the WEP, in hindsight, continuing the U.K. contributions (especially after vesting) might not have been such a great idea, but that's past.

The U.K. and U.S. also have a Social Security treaty which might bear on this question.

Please note that U.S. Social Security allows you to start collecting anywhere from age 62 to age 70. The longer you wait, the higher your monthly benefit. You can also use that flexibility to somewhat mitigate the effects of the WEP. The WEP doesn't apply until you start collecting U.K. benefits, so one possible option is to start U.S. Social Security and let it run for a while until the U.K. kicks in, then the U.S. would get knocked down with the WEP. Another strategy if you're in good health and don't need the money right away is to wait to collect U.S. Social Security in order to boost the monthly benefit significantly.

Don't forget to inquire about the spousal benefit if you're married, even if your spouse did not contribute into the U.S. system. Opposite and same sex spouses now qualify. I would also recommend asking about the effects of tax (if any) on your benefits and run some scenarios with the SSA representative. That's why they want an appointment with you, I would imagine, to give you more information to decide what would be optimal.


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## mancklin (Oct 6, 2013)

Thank you so much! Panic somewhat abated. But we'll see.


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## mancklin (Oct 6, 2013)

I had about 14 years of NI insurance payments in the UK. thereafter, I paid NI contributions out of my U.S. salary, from which Social Security payments had already been taken. It seems pretty unfair to me to penalize me for that.


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## mancklin (Oct 6, 2013)

My rather small salary as a public librarian, I might add.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

mancklin said:


> I had about 14 years of NI insurance payments in the UK. thereafter, I paid NI contributions out of my U.S. salary, from which Social Security payments had already been taken. It seems pretty unfair to me to penalize me for that.


As I understand it, the WEP was enacted to make allowance for those who were "double dipping" - qualifying for a government pension (military, for example) and then going back into the work force long enough to qualify for social security in addition. A foreign government pension got interpreted the same as any other sort of US "government" pension and there you have it. Even though US social security has never been considered anything other than a supplement to personal savings and private pensions. 

In any event, the US SS pension calculation tends to skew in favor of those with lower incomes, so you may find that the "bite" from the WEP may not be as bad as for someone with more substantial income over the years.
Cheers,
Bev


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## mancklin (Oct 6, 2013)

Also I didn't even apply for it yet. But thanks so much for the information.


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## mancklin (Oct 6, 2013)

I looked at the SSA website on WEP--and it does say that pensions based on voluntary contributions (which is largely my case) are not subject to WEP. Plus, I haven't even applied for it yet--so maybe I just won't if they are going to make a big fuss!


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

That's crazy talk. You definitely should apply for the U.S. Social Security benefits you are entitled to receive, and you should apply no later than age 70. (You lose money if you apply after age 70 because they won't make too many back payments.) WEP is only a part of the calculation and can never eliminate your benefit.

You will receive a monthly benefit. They just want to sit down with you and give you some decent advice since you could screw things up, financially speaking, if you start collecting at the wrong time(s) from the respective systems and/or miss things like spousal benefits.


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## mancklin (Oct 6, 2013)

You are right, crazy talk. But actually I meant, not apply for the UK pension, which will be quite small, if it's going to mess up my U.S. benefits. I put in far too much in the way of blood sweat and tears not to take SS benefits--20 years of dealing with a bunch of idiot administrators. But I will certainly do both anyway and see what happens.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Be careful with plans to finesse the system. Haven't checked recently, but at one point, they applied the WEP if you were eligible for a foreign government pension - whether or not you claimed it.

The folks in the Social Security office are actually quite sympathetic to our plights and may actually be able to advise you of the best approach so as to minimize the bite of the WEP. I know they did this a few years ago for someone I know over here in France. The main thing is simply to make sure that the WEP reduction is less than the small foreign pension you will receive. (Am in pretty much the same boat on this one.)
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

The Social Security Administration will advise you, especially if you ask lots of questions, but, no, you aren't taxed at 100% on foreign pensions. It's quite a bit less than that. (The link above describes the WEP.) In some systems (including the U.S.) _when_ you start collecting can influence how well you do, but you should always be better off taking all pensions you're entitled to at some point in time.

I absolutely agree with Bev. In my experience SSA is generally wonderful, at least when you are engaged and ask questions. They really try to figure out how to do the right thing(s) for you.


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## candad66 (Sep 7, 2015)

How did it go with social security? Any luck?


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## jonathant (Mar 13, 2016)

*dual pensions*

I am very confused, this is as clear as mud.
I worked while a student is the uk from 1970 to 1978, and then worked full time from 1978 to 1982.
Am I eligble for a UK pension. I have worked is USA full time for the past 34 years and will problerable work for another 5 years. If I am eligeble for a uk pension will my us pension be effected?

Thanks for any input.


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

Yes, you should be able to apply for U.K. National Insurance pension benefits (assuming you weren't paid "under the table" back then). Contact HMRC to find out more. Give them as much information as you can about your U.K. work history, and also let them know that you contributed to the U.S. system and would like them to count your U.S. credits if necessary. If you're married let them know that, too.

It is quite unlikely given your long working history in the United States that you would see any reduction in your U.S. Social Security retirement benefits as a consequence of receiving U.K. National Insurance benefits. However, even if you did see some reduction that reduction could never be more than 50% of your U.K. benefit. So it is always in your interest to collect all your entitled benefits.

Whether your benefits are taxable (and where) will depend on the U.S.-U.K. tax treaty, but again it's always in your financial interest to collect.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

As far as the WEP is concerned, I think I saw over on the SS site that 30 years of work in the US is the point at which you are no longer subject to the WEP. (Congratulations!)

It would be lovely if you happened to have kept your payslips from when you worked in the UK - or at least have some record of whatever taxpayer or social insurance number you may have had while working there. However, you should be able to contact the UK retirement agency and request a "work history" as they have it. That will help you figure out whether or not you have a pension due you, and in what amount. (And obviously, the more information - like those taxpayer numbers - you can provide, the quicker and easier the process will go.)
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

Bevdeforges said:


> ....I think I saw over on the SS site that 30 years of work in the US is the point at which you are no longer subject to the WEP. (Congratulations!)


It's 30 years of "substantial" earnings. The champagne can go on ice but don't pop the cork yet.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

BBCWatcher said:


> It's 30 years of "substantial" earnings. The champagne can go on ice but don't pop the cork yet.


"Substantial" meaning basically that you've worked full time at a "real" job, which it sounds like the OP has done. Though basically, there's nothing you can do at this point about the WEP, so just nice to know that he's in the area where it may not be a "problem."
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

Bevdeforges said:


> "Substantial" meaning basically that you've worked full time at a "real" job, which it sounds like the OP has done.


No, it's a bit more than that, and I don't assume. There are millions of people who work full-time jobs who wouldn't meet the "substantial" level. For reference, "substantial" meant a minimum of $22,050 in 2015. That figure is thousands above what a full-time worker would earn with a U.S. federal minimum wage job assuming 2000 hours per year.

Champagne on ice, cork not popped.


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