# UK vs USA



## horridlytory (Jan 17, 2011)

I have been debating moving to the UK for a while now, but I am really on the fence about it. 

I just wanted to make sure that my reasoning was right for this:

1. American politics are a joke- and it seems like holding down a job in this country is hell, and mine is threatened really badly right now.
2. The people in the US suck, rude as hell and the attitudes drive me nuts
3. The UK is a far prettier place
4. The pound is worth more then the dollar, and since my business is back in the states I know I could stimulate the crap out of it by sending money back for it- and since it doesn't require me to be there- it would be a win win.
5. People I meet from the UK on average seem to be much smarter then the average American
6. The UK isn't horribly ravaged by cancerous immigrants right?

The only reasons that I was thinking against it is the stigma that I might face back home when I go to see the folks I knew when I did live in the states, and the fact that owning a business and property in the US might be hard if I am not a citizen there anymore.

What made you all want to make the move?


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## horridlytory (Jan 17, 2011)

I am seriously on the fence about this, I know that if I go through with it at 23 it would be a serious thing to do, move else where alone and start a new life.


But then again at times that seems like exactly what I would like.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

horridlytory said:


> I am seriously on the fence about this, I know that if I go through with it at 23 it would be a serious thing to do, move else where alone and start a new life.
> 
> 
> But then again at times that seems like exactly what I would like.


Unless it's part of a long-term plan or you have a British or other EU passport, it will be very difficult to get a visa to move to UK, just as it's for any Briton wanting to immigrate to US, and UK government is trying to reduce the number of migrants from outside EU, tightening the rules all the time. Unless you have lived or come on an extended visit to UK recently, your broad assumptions about life in UK don't stand up to scrutiny. UK has as many problems as US, though they may be a bit different. Whether you find living in UK better than in US depends as much on you as a person as your environment. Immigration is a big political issue in UK at the moment, economy is as bad and so is job prospect, and people as friendly or unfriendly as you find anywhere. Pound isn't worth more than dollar - it's the cost of living and your income that decide whether it's cheaper to live in one or the other, and many expats find UK considerably more expensive than US for day-to-day costs after taking into account salary levels. Many say it costs as much in pound as in dollar for the same item, making UK on average 1/3 more expensive.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

horridlytory said:


> 1. American politics are a joke- and it seems like holding down a job in this country is hell, and mine is threatened really badly right now.
> 2. The people in the US suck, rude as hell and the attitudes drive me nuts
> 3. The UK is a far prettier place
> 4. The pound is worth more then the dollar, and since my business is back in the states I know I could stimulate the crap out of it by sending money back for it- and since it doesn't require me to be there- it would be a win win.
> ...


1. Since you won't have nationality and won't be able to vote for a few years, you'll be able to ignore the politics wherever you wind up (UK or elsewhere). But generally you'll find that politics are pretty much a joke worldwide. Finding a job can be hell outside your native country - especially now.

2. People are people the world around. You'll find some nice ones, but plenty of rude PITA's, too.

3. Depends where you are in the UK (same as in the US).

4. The pound is worth more than the dollar, but your pay isn't the same in pounds as in dollars. Depends on what you do for a living, but some occupations are paid considerably less in the UK than what you would be expecting. Plus, if you're planning on sending money back to the US the exchange rate and bank transfer fees will take a bite out of what you are transferring.

5. People you meet in the US from the UK are those who are traveling and tend to be the more well to do. The folks from the US you meet over on this side of the pond tend to be the better-educated and better off folks, too. The UK has plenty of poorly educated poor people, too.

6. Start following the British news. Immigration is a huge to-do in the UK, with the new government trying to cap it and running into many of the same problems the US has with "too many" poor immigrants from "undesirable" countries.

Start researching what it will take to get a visa to live in the UK. It's not easy. Living in the UK won't particularly interfere with your ability to own a business or other property back in the US. You'll always owe US taxes (or at least a US tax return) no matter where in the world you live. 
Cheers,
Bev


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## hollylane (Dec 9, 2010)

horridlytory said:


> I just wanted to make sure that my reasoning was right for this:
> 
> 1. American politics are a joke- and it seems like holding down a job in this country is hell, and mine is threatened really badly right now.
> 2. The people in the US suck, rude as hell and the attitudes drive me nuts
> ...


1. Well as I will agree with this, I will also agree with Bev when politics are a joke everywhere. Politicians are the same everywhere, no matter what your location is. The job market is tough everywhere, it's not just in the U.S even Canada is having issues (as I have friends up there)

2. I wouldn't say people suck in the U.S, once again Bev is right in saying people are people everywhere. I'm sure you've heard the expression the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Where as from my personal experience us Americans tend to be more open about our feelings and opinions and sadly a lot of them (not all thank goodness) feel they are entitled to something simply because they are American. 
I noticed when I went to the UK they are a bit more reserved about their emotions in general and their driving politeness was surprisingly... polite.... they would wave to you in the UK where as here in Colorado they wave, but wave with their middle finger. 

3. The UK IS beautiful, so is America though, every country has their 'beauty spots' 

4. The dollar/pound/any other form of currency goes up and down, I wouldn't base a move on that myself. 

5. I would say the UK has better school systems then over here. Public school that is. I'm unsure if they have done this in the UK, but I know they have lowered the standards just so more people can pass here in the US. I know many teachers here and it's NOT an easy job to have. They are underpaid and there isn't enough funding to get things done. 

6. The fact that you used the words "cancerous immigrants" I am unsure of how to really take that, as it could be taken many ways. So I'm going to leave that one alone. 

In my personal thoughts, it would be unwise to make such a BIG move in ones life unless they were completely 100% sure of it, and more importantly not to go into a new situation thinking everything will be better once one moves. 

I want to move to the UK (will be applying soon for spousal visa) because my husband lives there, and we want to raise our son there who is a month and half old. I am not fond of a lot of things here in the US, among them being the 'I'm better then you attitude' though in all honesty there aren't as many as one would think, most of us are just people trying to make it day by day. My only advice to anyone (no matter what the situation) is not to go into something with your head in the clouds cause you can't see your feet and see what might cause you to fall.


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## Punktlich2 (Apr 30, 2009)

horridlytory said:


> I have been debating moving to the UK for a while now, but I am really on the fence about it.
> 
> I just wanted to make sure that my reasoning was right for this:
> 
> ...


1. If you are wealthy you will have no problems getting entry clearance to live in the UK. If not, the easiest way for a businessperson is as "sole representative" of a foreign firm. However you are not allowed to be a major stockholder in that firm. There are other provisions that would allow you to come as an investor or to move your business to Britain but they are stricter than the foregoing.

2. Many in the UK complain about "asylum seekers", the local term for "illegal immigrants". And (for them) it gets worse: under the European treaties the UK cannot keep out citizens of other EU/EEA/Swiss countries coming for economic reasons even if they would be ineligible but for their nationality. Thus: Eastern Europeans coming to work and willing to work for less money than British workers. Not to forget smuggled Chinese (and other) workers brought in as farm hands and cockle pickers. (Google "cockle pickers" for more info on that.)


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## Hollie Rose (Nov 16, 2010)

horridlytory said:


> 1. American politics are a joke- and it seems like holding down a job in this country is hell, and mine is threatened really badly right now.


 - I agree that politics is a joke everywhere.



horridlytory said:


> 2. The people in the US suck, rude as hell and the attitudes drive me nuts


 - British people do tend to be quite friendly but I do agree that they often aren't as upfront about their emotions and can be insensitive. I know I'm British and lots of us are lovely but we are less emotional than some other places.

As well as this, I don't mean to be offensive but you may not get our humour. We have a thing called 'banter' which is often hard for other countries to grasp. Banter is basically being insulting but we find it funny and it could be offensive for you if you are unaware that it's not intentional, or even when you know someone is joking you still could be offended if you're not used to it. We use insults to show our closeness. Tbh our humour is a totally different ball game and you could well be insulted.



horridlytory said:


> 3. The UK is a far prettier place


 - The UK has got some very pretty parts, yes. Our countryside is beautiful. 



horridlytory said:


> 4. The pound is worth more then the dollar, and since my business is back in the states I know I could stimulate the crap out of it by sending money back for it- and since it doesn't require me to be there- it would be a win win.


 - I do think this is a good idea. If you have a business at home why not send money over? 



horridlytory said:


> 5. People I meet from the UK on average seem to be much smarter then the average American


- This depends where you go because education varies in different places. Where abouts in the UK are your friends from? 



horridlytory said:


> 6. The UK isn't horribly ravaged by cancerous immigrants right?


 - and the UK is full of immigrants. 

Good luck with your choice btw, thought I'd answer straight.  I recommend you come here for a visit first, then decide.


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## horridlytory (Jan 17, 2011)

I am a land lord. 
I do own a few properties in California, I was debating just selling them outright shopping for them in the UK while I am still employed by the US gov. 

I find that the quips and mild teasing don't bother me, it is usually the manner that it is presented. My friends are from Liverpool and Bath. 

I think that the thing that makes me disillusioned with the United States is the fact that it seems to have no culture, no sense of itself, no sense of tradition, simply the hedonistic chasing of momentary pleasures and the culture defined by the media. 

I feel like with England that there is something for me to believe in.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

horridlytory said:


> I think that the thing that makes me disillusioned with the United States is the fact that it seems to have no culture, no sense of itself, no sense of tradition, simply the hedonistic chasing of momentary pleasures and the culture defined by the media.
> 
> I feel like with England that there is something for me to believe in.


Many people in England say that the country is becoming rapidly like US, losing sense of tradition, value or culture, and being replaced by a relentless pursuit of pleasure and profits. Family cohesion is on a decline, or a sense of community, many just content to looking after the number one, and to hell with other people. Of course not everyone is like that, but compared to ten or twenty years ago, the change is palpable and sees no sign of reversal.


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## mamasue (Oct 7, 2008)

Another point you may want to consider.....
You won't get anything like California weather in England.....For the most part, it's grey rainy and depressing.....except for a few weeks of the year, when it's sunny and glorious!


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## Vegasgirl94 (Feb 12, 2011)

horridlytory said:


> 6. The UK isn't horribly ravaged by cancerous immigrants right?


....and what do you think the Brits will think of you? You'd be an immigrant right? :-/

There are rude people here just as there are rude people in the US. I also find that the teens here are more horrible than any one group of teens I've seen in the US. Maybe I've just been cynical.... But that's just my observation. 

Sent from my iPad using ExpatForum


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## CompBio (Sep 28, 2011)

I've got a couple of thoughts on this (speaking as someone who is looking into post-docs in the U.K. and elsewhere).

First, it sounds to me like you need to do more research before taking the leap. As others have mentioned, all countries have their positives and negatives. If you go expecting that all (or even most) of your worst annoyances will disappear magically, you may be bitterly disappointed. Instead I suggest going with the attitude that every place has things that suck, but you're going to see what life is really like there and maybe you'll like it better.

Second, moving to the right place can make a huge difference in your life. I've never regretted moving to Colorado -- never. I love the mountains, the weather and my friends here. When my wife and I emigrate, it will be with the intent of coming back someday. Yes, politicians in the U.S. can be buffoons (and I challenge the folks in Europe to name a prominent politician there who thinks evolution is "only a theory" ), but despite that we love it here.

Third, having said all that, if you can to it, do it! You are young, you will learn and you will benefit from it.

Good luck!


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## mamasue (Oct 7, 2008)

Vegasgirl94 said:


> ....and what do you think the Brits will think of you? You'd be an immigrant right? :-/
> 
> There are rude people here just as there are rude people in the US. I also find that the teens here are more horrible than any one group of teens I've seen in the US. Maybe I've just been cynical.... But that's just my observation.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using ExpatForum



I agree with your obserbations....'immigrants are immigrants' in the UK.
I find UK teenagers far more aggressive and disrespectful than US teens.


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## toadsurfer (Nov 27, 2009)

Don't think about it too much. Just go and make your own mind up. Life is short so go and experience a life overseas. Worse case scenario is you don't like it as much as the US and return home. Even then it will be a positive experience as you will appreciate home more and will have had a fun and interesting life experience overseas. 
There are things about the UK I can't stand but there are things I love. I am hoping to emigrate to new Zealand shortly but I want to go to experience a different country and way of life, the negatives of the uk are not the reason for leaving. 
If you have the luxury of being young with few ties then don't worry about emigrating as being a huge life changing event. Just go and see what happens. Good luck!


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## Mischief (Sep 10, 2011)

horridlytory said:


> I have been debating moving to the UK for a while now, but I am really on the fence about it.
> 
> I just wanted to make sure that my reasoning was right for this:
> 
> ...


Oh my gosh, I hope you stay in the USA, seriously. I'd give anything to move back there, and I've been living in England for some years. I only moved here due to marriage, plus I had always wanted to live in England. Just my opinion, of course, but .. first of all...

1. Politics are no better over here, plus, you are taxed up the whazoo! even having to pay a yearly TV license fee. Car insurance is more expensive, most things are more expensive, it's a harder life.

2. A lot of the teenagers over here are horribly rude, aggressive, bullying, and like to beat up people. Not all, of course! But I see much more of it than in the USA, and, no, I don't live in an area that has a reputation for it. American teenagers seem more respectful, or value life more. If you exclude teenagers, I find that the people here are very reserved and don't say much. They just get on with their business.

3. You think the UK is prettier? I will have to disagree with that. In fact, I was surprised over here at the way the houses are not kept up on the outside. So many houses look run down, yet are beautiful on the inside. Why they don't take care of the outside of the building is beyond me, unless it's due to the cost involved. I came from an area in eastern USA where neighbors went outside and scrubbed their porches, steps, etc... or at least hosed them off and maintained the brick exteriors. The beauty I find in the UK is the greenery which lines many of the motorways. Country scenery here is very lovely. But you can find that in many states in America. UK commercial buildings, in general, are drab, and lack the color of American buildings. I miss the color. However, I do love the architecture over here. 

4. Money... things cost more over here. That's why my British husband loves coming to America to buy things. Fuel is going to be at least 2 times the cost of whatever you're paying right now, depending on where you live here. Right now, it costs us around $100 to fill our tank just 3/4 full. Also, *you will have to pay tax to the USA for any money earned here in the UK!* That's right. The USA is one of the few countries that taxes it's citizens no matter which country they live in. 

5. People being smarter? Um, not the ones I've met. And I think my husband must work for the most unintelligent administrators in any business I've ever known in 30 years, so I know it isn't just my opinion, as he sees it, too. Yes, people are people, no matter what country. They aren't smarter here, nor in the USA.

6. The Immigrant issue is HUGE here. Just a trip into London will find the minorities outnumber the traditional regular British. Even British celebrities have remarked about it, and how London is not like the old London anymore, as it's overrun with all the ethnic groups. This can be a good thing if you like diversity.

When I first came to England, I was all dreamy-eyed and looking forward to the culture, people, etc... and thought it was fabulous. Now I really, really miss America, and if it wasn't for the gun crime there and cost of healthcare, I'd be on the next flight back. So would my British husband, as he loves America, too. Plus, I miss my American oven where I didn't have to kneel on the floor in order to put food in it or take food out! (same with the washing machine!). Cost of electricity was cheaper in the USA, too. At least some utility companies are regulated in the USA. I remember when Baltimore Gas & Electric in Maryland tried to raise rates extremely high but were stopped by the State, due to protests. Instead, they were forced to implement a rate hike gradually, in stages, over a year or two. That wouldn't happen in England! The utility companies just raised their rates, and got away with it. Nothing is done about it. Do you really want to live in a country where some of the people I know have to try and get through winter without heat because they can't afford the cost? Especially the poor elderly? Do you know what it's like to see your mother-in-law cold, because she's too concerned about money to turn her heating up? I can't even afford to run our electric clothes dryer. But, since you're a businessman, I'm guessing you will have enough money to not worry about these kind of things. It's true there are people in the USA who struggle with our same issues, but I see it so much more prevalent over here. The division of classes is more severe, just so you're aware of it. 

Since you're a businessman, also be aware that many business owners move out of England, due to the high taxes.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Mischief said:


> 4. Money... things cost more over here. That's why my British husband loves coming to America to buy things. Fuel is going to be at least 2 times the cost of whatever you're paying right now, depending on where you live here. Right now, it costs us around $100 to fill our tank just 3/4 full. Also, *you will have to pay tax to the USA for any money earned here in the UK!* That's right. The USA is one of the few countries that taxes it's citizens no matter which country they live in.


Can't resist a little "clarification" here. As a US citizen, you will always have to file taxes back in the US, but in general you shouldn't wind up having to pay US income tax on most forms of income you earn in the UK. The reporting requirements are getting worse and worse for those of us who have any sort of investments or financial accounts outside the US (see various discussions on the national forums here regarding FBAR and FATCA - also known affectionately as "FUBAR" and "FATCAT") but in most cases you shouldn't have to pay taxes twice on the same income.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Mischief (Sep 10, 2011)

Bevdeforges said:


> Can't resist a little "clarification" here. As a US citizen, you will always have to file taxes back in the US, but in general you shouldn't wind up having to pay US income tax on most forms of income you earn in the UK. The reporting requirements are getting worse and worse for those of us who have any sort of investments or financial accounts outside the US (see various discussions on the national forums here regarding FBAR and FATCA - also known affectionately as "FUBAR" and "FATCAT") but in most cases you shouldn't have to pay taxes twice on the same income.
> Cheers,
> Bev


An accountant that handles expats taxes told me differently, so now I'm really confused. It was my understanding you do pay tax on income earned if over a certain amount, same with interest on bank accounts if over a certain amount, and if you've paid UK taxes on the income, then it's deducted from the amount the USA says you owe?


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Mischief said:


> An accountant that handles expats taxes told me differently, so now I'm really confused. It was my understanding you do pay tax on income earned if over a certain amount, same with interest on bank accounts if over a certain amount, and if you've paid UK taxes on the income, then it's deducted from the amount the USA says you owe?


Up to $92,900 in salary can be excluded for 2011 and $14,864 (16% of $92.9k) in housing allowances paid by your employer (often part of expat package). Foreign investment income is usually taxable in full in US, except that if there is a double taxation treaty, you can deduct tax paid or witheld in UK. Remember certain items which are tax-free in UK, such as ISAs, may not be in US.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Mischief said:


> An accountant that handles expats taxes told me differently, so now I'm really confused. It was my understanding you do pay tax on income earned if over a certain amount, same with interest on bank accounts if over a certain amount, and if you've paid UK taxes on the income, then it's deducted from the amount the USA says you owe?


As Joppa explains, we're both right in our own way. Up to the exclusion figure, (the $92K and change in Joppa's message) you won't pay US tax on *earned income* (i.e. salary and the salary component of self-employment type income).

Investment income gets tricky, depending on the type of investment and whether you have paid taxes to your home government. Pensions can also get tricky, especially if the source country doesn't tax them.

But what I was objecting to was your statement that "you'll pay taxes to the US on *any * money earned here in the UK" - for salary income, the first $92K or so is excludible and you can bump that up a bit if you are eligible for the housing allowance. Then, taking full advantage of the exemptions and standard (or itemized) deductions, you can keep a few thousand $ worth of interest or investment income before you actually owe any taxes to Uncle Sam.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Mischief (Sep 10, 2011)

Gotcha! Thanks for clarifying. I was thinking since he was a landlord, he'd be making a taxable sum. Cheers!


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