# Dog Trouble



## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

As some of you know I am the proud owner of 4 dogs, or is that I am owned by 4 dogs. Either way I have a problem I was wondering if any of you guys could help me out with solving.

Since day one, one of my terriers has been a mean old thing to my Dobe pup. Now whilst he was small we could distract him and the pup and it wasnt so much of a problem, now however, poop has hit the fan.
The other day they ended up having a tussle, not too much of a problem, seeing as the Dobe is muzzled while out. (It only comes to blows whilst out on a walk, whilst they are waiting to be let into my gate). The problem lies in my other 2 dogs, a boxer and another terrier, (full brother to the other). In they piled, resulting in me having to do some nifty footwork and some punching to get them seperated. 
Terrier was bashed up, but thankfully not seriously hurt. 
Then last night, it happened again, this time the terrier has legged it and hasnt come back and I am beside myself. 
Now I am hoping he is simply sulking, (no blood on the ground so I am hoping he isnt hurt just shaken) and will come home when the mood takes him. 
As and when he does, (fingers crossed) how the heck do I tackle the problem of bully dogs. 
I know there is a pack order, alpha, and beta and all that, but how do I stop, first, the Dobe and he coming to blows, second the others joining in. I could muzzle them all I guess, but my fear is that at some point in the future they won't confine their scuffles to walk time. I need tackle the problem of the aggression before it escalates.
In the meantime I am not talking to the dogs, boy are they sucking up to get me too, and I have decided to stop walking them. Now I know this is not ideal, as it is, I have been getting up at the crack of sparrow you know what in order to avoid hunters and neighbours, because even though I recall my Dobe and pop him in the lead if I think there is anyone on the mountain, they are still twitchy as they don't think a mere woman can handle a big dog like him. (he is still a pup)
Any ideas? 
By the way, the Boxer is aged, but still lithe enough to have a go at my terrier whom she has lived with for 4 years now. (she came to me as a problem dog and whilst for most of the time we have had her she has been okay, she did attack my old dog on a few occasions, resulting in vets visits and a lot of sore knuckles for me) But since she became the only ***** she settled and we have had no problems. Why the sudden reversal to being aggresive? :boxing:
It really has got me perplexed


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## Seb* (Mar 22, 2009)

Yes, there is a rank order in every pack, but only one rank is important and that's the Alpha. If there is a fixed and recognised ranking you won't experience anything like you did. With an established pack leader you won't find any fighting and if there is a little trouble the pack leader can make it stop very quickly.

Now the important bit, who needs to be the pack leader? *YOU!* It's not about ignoring the dogs (as in all the time, short period ignoring is a way of establishing dominance) or punishing them with no walking. It's about a calm and assertive leadership. You have to be the pack leader, they have to respect you. You call the shots. You decide where to go on walks, you go through the door first, you don't feed them until they have shown disciplin. If there are confrontations like you described you are not in pack leader position, another dog is or it is unclear to the pack who is in charge. Stuff like that only happens if one or more of the dogs think they have to take over pack leadership and responsibilities. This is especially importent on breeds that are prone to dominance and aggression.

It is very obvious that you have a ranking issues, especially with the former aggressive dog suddenly starting off again. There was a shift in the ranking and the dog can't handle it or more like is stepping up to the plate to take over leadership (bad thing - we do not want that!).

All this is valid for all dog packs. The pack is the whole family including humans and it doesn't matter if the pack has one, two, four or ten dogs. They NEED a fixed ranking and stable leadership. Any kind of uncertainty means stress for the dogs.

So what you have to do now is re-establishing your leadership. Be strict with them (no shouting or demonstration of physical strength!), do lots of disciplin excersises (sit, down etc. does the job nicely). Do not accept bullying within the pack, you are the only one allowed to bully, make it clear to them. No food until they have obeyed you. Done right, you will see immediate success and the dogs will thank you for it. Remember you call the shots. If they all accept your leadership you won't have any trouble to stop building up aggression with a single gesture! You are the one who has to hold the pack together.

If you stick to it and keep the disciplin within the pack you will see results very quickly. It has nothing to do with training the dogs, they are perfectly fine, they do what dogs do! It all comes down to the pack leader.

So don't panic, spend a bit of time establishing yourself as pack leader again. And the whole thing will solve itself. Good luck and fingers crossed that the runaway will come back soon. If he comes back it is imperative that the leadership is sorted, otherwise it will reoccur and the dog might not come back, that's what happens in nature. You might want to start using a specific noise to get the dogs attention (a sharp hiss or shhhh-sound), in combination with a light and sudden touch to the body, when getting the dogs attention. When there is a built-up in tension this will snap them out of it and re-focus them on you. Use it whenever you are correcting them. They will get used to it and when they hear it they turn to you and know that you want something and since you are the pack leader and call the shots - they will obbey


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## Seb* (Mar 22, 2009)

Another thing that comes to mind. Are your dogs castrated?


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Seb* said:


> Another thing that comes to mind. Are your dogs castrated?


Thanks for the advice. I think we are almost reading from the same song sheet, although I think I am off key at the moment.

Both of my terriers are castrated, however, the Dobe is awaiting his date with destiny due to my vet advising we wait a while as he is adamant it stunts their developement, who am I to argue with a professional.

I usually have to take my Dobe to a friends for his training sessions as the others get jealous of the attention he is receiving. My Boxer is really quite dense when it comes to doing anything above a sit or come. Even then she has trouble with working out (I swear) which one is which. She is 9 years old and a little bit deaf (when she chooses) and a little short sighted (in the dark), so I try to be patient however sometimes she tries me to the point of breaking.

I am going to buy a new muzzle for my Dobe, he has a soft type at the moment which allows him to nip which whilst it is no where near as bad as his bite is a shade too much so come Monday I am going to buy a cage type. My Boxer I fear is too old to muzzle now, as I have said she is 9 and has never had one as far as I can tell.

I have found ignoring my dogs a wonderful punishment, however, the other night I have to admit I gave them a smack. 

Thankfully my boy came home, bruised, tail between his legs and very scared. After a load of cuddles we reintroduced him to the others, one at a time and under strict supervision. He is trying to fit in with them once again, fingers crossed it works.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Yes, I think Seb is right. It's the only option. You have to be the pack leader.
But as Seb will agree, saying that is one thing, actually achieving it is another...
I hope your dog has returned by now.
I'm in bed with mild 'flu (just as well it's raining heavily) so won't be at the kennels today but I'll ask when I'm next up how we deal with problems like this, which occur o0ften as you can imagine with up to twenty dogs in a pen..


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, I think Seb is right. It's the only option. You have to be the pack leader.
> But as Seb will agree, saying that is one thing, actually achieving it is another...
> I hope your dog has returned by now.
> I'm in bed with mild 'flu (just as well it's raining heavily) so won't be at the kennels today but I'll ask when I'm next up how we deal with problems like this, which occur o0ften as you can imagine with up to twenty dogs in a pen..


Sorry to hear you are feeling a bit low, lemon and honey mixed with hot water is a wonderful medicine for colds and flu. 

My terrier did come home, after a bit of reintroducing everything appeared to be fine, they slept together with no hassle, that was until this morning. My son popped out to pick up a friend who is helping us set out our garden, as they went to open the gate my Dobe turned on the terrier and in piled the rest. He is a mess.
One emergency visit to the vet later I am so angry I have booked the Dobe in for Castration, I honestly dont know what to do with my Boxer, should I have her put down or try and work through it, I love her to pieces, but I also love my Terrier, he might be a crotchtety little so and so but he doesnt deserve to be turned on. 
I am going to get some help with my Dobe, a friend has recommended using the umbilical method, wherein I literally attach my Dobe to me, I sit, he sits, I walk he walks, I wash the pots, well you get the idea I think. She is coming over to help me with the establishment of me as pack leader, she had to do it with 2 of her dogs and they are fine now with each other so here is hoping. 
In the meantime, my Terrier is wearing a lampshade on his head, has a drain in his side and is not a well boy at all.


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## Seb* (Mar 22, 2009)

This is exactly what happens. Doors and gates are a prime example, the one who goes through first is the boss and it ALWAYS has to be the human, doesn't matter if it is you or your son, humans have to be on top and they have to behave accordingly.

Sorry to say and it might sound harsh, but the problem wasn't the dogs, it was the lack of control of your son in this situation, which kicked it off. You urgently need help and I mean it! Putting down a dog doesn´t achieve anything, next you will have to put down the Dobermann when he tears into the next dog. By the sound of it your whole pack is out of control.

The castration of the Dob is the first thing to do, it should be done at 6 months anyway, before any marking and ranking behaviour kicks off, but it can always help to calm things down. Problem is the hormones are still in the body and it can take up to 3-5 months to completely take effect.

All humans in your household have to establish leadership right now! And it is not difficult to do, little things I mentioned above can sort it out within days. The hardest part is to be strict and not to fall into the trap of cuddling and cooing our beloved dogs. We love them dearly but showing them only affection and no discipline will damage them, there is a time for cuddles and then there is a time for discipline, dogs need both equally.

If you don't step up now and leave the pack to itself you will have the next victim very shortly, I can guarantee that. The biggest issue right now seems to be your Dob (the Boxer just jumps on the bandwagon), he is stirring up the ranking, he needs control. Dobs are prone to dominance and aggression and if not handled right from the start some can end up being problem dogs (it does not have to be aggression towards humans, but it can evolve into this as well). It is all about discipline and control. There is a big difference between having one dog or a whole pack with different personalities. The more personalities are involved the more important is full control - you can never let it slip. I have seen big packs turn on smaller dogs ending with the death of said dog (literally ripped to pieces!), caused solely by the human who did not have any kind of control of a pack that was way over her head! At first it might be a small lower ranking pack member, next it can be a small child that approaches one of the dogs in the wrong way! This is exactly how the things start we read in the papers. How often do you read about 2 or more dangerous dogs killing and injuring children. It's not the dogs causing it, it's the humans making mistakes and underestimating the danger that developes from there.

So good luck with getting your pack under control. It is very good that you are getting help and advise. Whatever your friend will teach you, it is important that you use it on ALL dogs in your pack, not only the Doberman. And before you think of destroying one of your dogs, try to find it a new home, it's highly likely that the dog is not the problem and only reacts to its surroundings.
If you really struggle with controling the pack in the future you might want to think about reducing its size, some people are just not made for being a packleader. It's not a negative thing, we just need to be aware of our own capabilities. Saying all this, it is not hard and just needs a bit of practise


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

So glad your dog has come home....and I'm sure you won't 'lose' your Boxer until you have exhausted every method...
Just wondering....do your dogs socialise much with other dogs? Our Little Azor, el Ridgeback Rodesiano, was a bit of a nightmare when we lived in Prague. I dreaded taking him out as old women screamed and ran with their dogs when they saw him approach and nearly everyone who encountered him and had portable dogs picked them up and clasped them to their bosoms.
This was perhaps understandable as he did tend to leap at people and even as a youngster he weighed over 40 kilos of muscle.
His problem was that he was basically a friendly boy but had no-one to be friends with. As soon as he came to Spain and encountered people with a more trusting and friendly attitude he very quickly became socialised and is now extremely friendly and popular with dogs and humans. I wish you could see him with a Chihuahua (spelling??) sniffing his bum.
So....is it possible that your pack could benefit from interaction with other dogs?
This is probably a very unhelpful suggestion....but am trying to think of solutions as I know how you must be feeling. We had a German Shepherd back in the UK who was totally beyond our control. In the end we gave him to a friend who ran a boarding kennels. He leapt at her and broke her teeth.
We haven't communicated since....
Thanks for your commiseration. Although I must say it's quite pleasant to be warm in bed with OLA snuggled up and loads o0f books and tv and it's p*****g down outside...


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## Seb* (Mar 22, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> So....is it possible that your pack could benefit from interaction with other dogs?
> This is probably a very unhelpful suggestion....but am trying to think of solutions as I know how you must be feeling.


This works nicely with single dogs. I would advise against it at the moment though. An unstable pack might be a danger for third party dogs right now, don't want to upset friends and family with getting their dogs hurt. Later when the pack is settled interaction with other dogs can help though, but it is not really a must. It just helps when going for walks with them, that way they get used to encounter other dogs. Socialising itself they can learn and do in their own pack at home. I don't think that "socialising" is the issue in this case. It's just a damaged pack hierarchy, which needs adressing. When the internal problems are settled you can start interacting with other dogs, one on one at first - later in the group as well - it will be beneficial for all dogs that's for sure


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

I accept it is all my fault. One can hardly blame a dog for being a dog, even though there have been times when I think of them as being more human than some humans I know. When my dogs are on their own they are usually very obedient and no trouble. My Dobe is not a bad dog, he sometimes is a little too boisterous for his own good but that I put down to age, (he is 11 months old) and hope he will calm down as he gets a little older. Just now he was getting in the way of my sons friend so I called him over, told him to 'sit, calm down.' Lo and behold you would think butter wouldnt melt in his mouth he was so good'. Even the Boxer behaved. It is just when they become a pack as you have rightly said without proper leadership that I have problems. 
Since day one my big terrier has been a grumbly old so and so, he constantly fights with his own brother and fact is he has never once shown a tad of niceness towards the Dobe. I should have had him castrated before today, but my vet was so convincing allowed him to sway my decision and delay it. That will never happen again. It will be balls off before they get to thinking they are useful for something from now on.

I am not going to rush into anything, my Terrier is now a house dog, he will be kept away from the Dobe and Boxer from now on and woebetide them if they ever even think of doing this again.


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## Seb* (Mar 22, 2009)

JoCatalunya said:


> I accept it is all my fault. One can hardly blame a dog for being a dog, even though there have been times when I think of them as being more human than some humans I know. When my dogs are on their own they are usually very obedient and no trouble. My Dobe is not a bad dog, he sometimes is a little too boisterous for his own good but that I put down to age, (he is 11 months old) and hope he will calm down as he gets a little older. Just now he was getting in the way of my sons friend so I called him over, told him to 'sit, calm down.' Lo and behold you would think butter wouldnt melt in his mouth he was so good'. Even the Boxer behaved. It is just when they become a pack as you have rightly said without proper leadership that I have problems.
> Since day one my big terrier has been a grumbly old so and so, he constantly fights with his own brother and fact is he has never once shown a tad of niceness towards the Dobe. I should have had him castrated before today, but my vet was so convincing allowed him to sway my decision and delay it. That will never happen again. It will be balls off before they get to thinking they are useful for something from now on.


It's all about confidence! Put on a show for them, make them sit a lot, push them out of the way when they stand around. If you don't like the look they give each other, go in an push them apart, hiss at them. Just play the bully. They will see and understand and most dogs instantly react positively to that. Do it while they are all together, the other dogs will observe and automatically develope more respect for you. If you single one out to discipline, make sure the others don't interfere, they might come closer to jump on the bandwagon, if they try to get into the melee, instantly push them away. It's your job to discipline a pack member no one else's!

Bad advise from your vet. Yes big dogs keep growing until 18 months, but especially with a dangerous breed the advantages just outweight the down sides. With 11 months he just came into puberty, he is full of hormones and feels the urge of dominance, this completely through the balance within the pack.

And yes it isn´t always easy to play the tough guy/gal! We love our babies, don't we? And they are sooo cute as well. But never forget they need to know that we not only love them, but that we are tough people and are able to protect the pack as well - only then a dog is really happy and fully content with his life.

This is the same for any dog, big Doberman or small Chihuahua! We just got a little 2 year old Chihuahua from an animal rescue place in Alicante. We got him with warnings as a problem dog who bites and is very fearful. Within the first days it got clear that he came with luggage. Not only was he extremely fearful - he had a big dominant and aggressive streak towards others as well. He growled a lot, showed his teeth and snapped. It's obvious that the former owners lost complete control of him, which ultimately ended with them abandoning him. He must have got his fair share of slaps and abuse as well going by his fear of anything from behind or above. Within hours of discipline and introduction to a fixed ranking order he visibly changed his behaviour and over the next days you could see him blossoming up and finding his place. He had run ins with one of our other dogs, this has to be intercepted as soon as it escalates. He reacts perfectly to it. Now he is doing well, has integrated himself into the pack and is less fearful already and we are very happy with our latest pack member - growing it to four. With a strict hand and the right leadership you can cure nearly every problem, dogs develope. And I feel for you, that you find it hard, cause they are so lovely. Chihuahuas are prone to get difficult, cause they are so cute, have the special look in their face and NEVER grow up. Ours behaves like a puppy! A lot of people treat them like babies, forgetting that they are full blown dogs and then are surprised that they start biting and harrasing their owners. I want to cuddle him a lot, cause of his little cute face, but have to keep reminding myself that he needs a strict leader as well. This is really easy to do, he came with the commands for "sit" and "give paw" (took me some days to figure out that he was taught in spanish  ). So whenever he gets a treat, jumps on the bed or before I want to cuddle him, he has to do "pata". That's all it needs - really. Little things to remind them who is the boss, call it rank maintenance if you want. Then the occasional push to the side and you are golden :clap2:


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## uffington15 (May 4, 2009)

Cant believe your vet held off from castration, we had our sharpei/rottie done just before he was 6 months. Having 4 dogs we are like you very aware of how they interact and as soon as they appear to be getting out of control then I step in to calm them down. I know this "rule" about the pack leader going through doorways first but we dont operate that.
Hope it all gets sorted


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