# How many expats actually speak Spanish ?



## SunnySpain

I personally find it incredible how a British expat can obtain work in a Bar or restaurant in Spain without being able to speak Spanish.

We were in a bar the other day and my OH asked for a "Limonada", the waitress looked totally confused and after a short pause she replied "I don't know that it is, but we have Lemonade if that's any good". My OH ended up with a seven up.

Earlier today we were in another bar/restaurant and the owner practically had a fit when my OH started speaking in Spanish. In the end we had to order our food and drinks from the Spanish speaking Dutch waiter.

Whilst I understand it can be difficult to learn another language, surely the ability to speak Spanish should be a pre-requisute for those wanting to work in bar or restaurant in Spain.

Any thoughts ?


Dave


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## Chica

SunnySpain said:


> I personally find it incredible how a British expat can obtain work in a Bar or restaurant in Spain without being able to speak Spanish.
> 
> We were in a bar the other day and my OH asked for a "Limonada", the waitress looked totally confused and after a short pause she replied "I don't know that it is, but we have Lemonade if that's any good". My OH ended up with a seven up.
> 
> Earlier today we were in another bar/restaurant and the owner practically had a fit when my OH started speaking in Spanish. In the end we had to order our food and drinks from the Spanish speaking Dutch waiter.
> 
> Whilst I understand it can be difficult to learn another language, surely the ability to speak Spanish should be a pre-requisute for those wanting to work in bar or restaurant in Spain.
> 
> Any thoughts ?
> 
> 
> Dave


I totally agree with you! I think MAINLY it's only people who need to work really have a go at the language. I could speak a little before I came out but learnt very quickly working in the bars .


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## Tallulah

We've all been to various places where only a smattering of that country's language was spoken and service with a smile definitely goes a long way. You have to look at the fact that some of those employed within the service industry are cheap and are on temporary/seasonal work - hardly ever on a contract. Easily replaced. You'd be hard pressed to find that lack of language ability in any other service.


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## SunnySpain

Tallulah said:


> We've all been to various places where only a smattering of that country's language was spoken and service with a smile definitely goes a long way. You have to look at the fact that some of those employed within the service industry are cheap and are on temporary/seasonal work - hardly ever on a contract. Easily replaced. You'd be hard pressed to find that lack of language ability in any other service.



True enuf and the Catalan's are close to removing Castellano from the school curriculum so I'm told, due to their reluctance is to be labelled Spanish or French.

Bon Dia


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## Tallulah

SunnySpain said:


> True enuf and the Catalan's are close to removing Castellano from the school curriculum so I'm told, due to their reluctance is to be labelled Spanish or French.
> 
> Bon Dia


They'll never get away with it. It is against the law. The catalans have wanted to be their own "country" for a very long time - their own laws/their own monetary system - what these autonomous provinces fail to grasp is they're not willing to let go of Madrid money and services/back up - everything that is outide of their own autonomous financial grip.

And boas noites to you too!!


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## jojo

When I used to work for the NHS in the UK, I used to take phone calls from people phoning in with questions about their illnesses etc. I used to get fairly regular phone calls from fluent speaking children asking for advise for their parents. When I'd ask to speak to the parent/patient, the child would say, "sorry my mum doesnt speak english"!! Now in the UK thats acceptable, however I personally used to think it was bloody rude and inconceivable that these parents hadnt even tried eventhough they had obviously been in the UK for sometime (hense their childrens fluency!!)

Well its the same here isnt it... and yes, I´m little miss hypocrite now!! Cos altho I try really hard wherever possible and have lessons, I´m hopeless! I always try and smile, appear friendly tho, cos communication is more than just language!

Jo


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## SteveHall

SunnySpain said:


> True enuf and the Catalan's are close to removing Castellano from the school curriculum so I'm told, due to their reluctance is to be labelled Spanish or French.
> 
> Bon Dia


The first part of the sentence is just a rumour. It will never happen and IAC it is ensconced in Spanish law. 

I am afraid that I do not understand the last 11 words.


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## jojo

SteveHall said:


> The first part of the sentence is just a rumour. It will never happen and IAC it is ensconced in Spanish law.
> 
> I am afraid that I do not understand the last 11 words.


Cos apparently Castellano is a mixture of french and spanish.

Language on the whole is a strange thing and its very much like fashion, it changes with each new generation, even if you think how much english has changes since we were kids (it was still latin when you were one Steve??lol). ie when I was a kid "sad" and "wicked" meant something totally different to today my son is forever saying "thats well wicked" when he means something is good!!?!

So going back to the thread, in a few generations time, I wouldnt be surprised if we all havent evolved a language that everyone understands and is a bit of everything

Jo xxx


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## anles

> Cos apparently Castellano is a mixture of french and spanish.


Castellano is Spanish LOL and English has evolved from Anglo Saxon, it isn't a Latin derived language although it does have words from Latin  
I think you haven't had your first morning coffee yet Jojo so I'll make you one shall I?


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## jojo

anles said:


> Castellano is Spanish LOL and English has evolved from Anglo Saxon, it isn't a Latin derived language although it does have words from Latin
> I think you haven't had your first morning coffee yet Jojo so I'll make you one shall I?



Sadly, my brain needs no excuse to be thick, coffee wouldnt make any difference lol. Sadly I dont even drink it!!! Its strange actually, I always seem to talk more than normal on sunday mornings and its usually nonsense! and I´m all on my own (apart from the kids, who are in their rooms hiding!!), so I have to drone on here 


Jo xxx


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## SteveHall

Catalan is NOT a mixture of Spanish and thread - although it is often described as such. It is very much a language in its own right and is very proud of its identity and its development from Vulgar Latin. (If anybody is interested in this whole matter Simon Harris book explains the story of the language's development. He drops in here occasionally as you know.) 

Language is in a constant state of change as Jojo says and that is an excellent example she quotes. ("Gay" is another frequently used example) As a linguist I am scared but excited with what will happen to languages such as Danish and Dutch in the next 100 years as English (American) becomes more and more THE international language of trade. (Did you know that more people speak English in China now than do so in the USA? On the same track, the growth of Spanish in the USA is fast and furious)

In Denmark all courses in veterinary sciences at the Copenhagen University are now taught in ENGLISH and I wonder how long it will be before that continues to other courses. I have studied the evolution of the Swedish language from the Runic Stones, through Gustav Vasa's bible and into the popular culture of the 20th/21st centuries. At no stage has is it ever moved faster than the last 30/40 years. 

The issue with English is very interesting indeed as it is indeed a very mixed language. Is it a Latin language? Is it a North European language from the Germanic sub-group? Is it ......? The reality is that it is a complete melange of languages from the Proto Indo-European language and will continue to develop and change. One of the most interesting aspects of the rise and rise of Social Networking and sms culture is the number of people now writing regularly in the English language. It is estimated that TEN times as many people in the UK now write regularly in English as five years ago. I see that as very positive. (I am less positive about txt speak!) Equally I am a member of Scandi forums where sometimes 50/60% of the posts are in English! Obviously many Scandis and Dutch are now on global forums writing comfortably in English. 

Clearly, the Spanish are a long way behind the Scandis and the Dutch when it comes to learning English. There is no history of English being taught here and the level it was taught at up until just a few short years ago was truly appalling. I know Spanish teachers to this day who teach English here in Spain and who can hardly string a sentence together in English. I have gone through the next day's lesson with them and helped them with pronounciation, vocabulary and corrected major grammatical errors. Things ARE improving, there is a certain group of elder teens who think it is "chic" to speak English but we are at least two generations from the Spanish speaking English to the level of their N.European friends.


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## jojo

SteveHall said:


> Catalan is NOT a mixture of Spanish and thread - although it is often described as such. It is very much a language in its own right and is very proud of its identity and its development from Vulgar Latin. (If anybody is interested in this whole matter Simon Harris book explains the story of the language's development. He drops in here occasionally as you know.)
> 
> Language is in a constant state of change as Jojo says and that is an excellent example she quotes. ("Gay" is another frequently used example) As a linguist I am scared but excited with what will happen to languages such as Danish and Dutch in the next 100 years as English (American) becomes more and more THE international language of trade. (Did you know that more people speak English in China now than do so in the USA? On the same track, the growth of Spanish in the USA is fast and furious)
> 
> In Denmark all courses in veterinary sciences at the Copenhagen University are now taught in ENGLISH and I wonder how long it will be before that continues to other courses. I have studied the evolution of the Swedish language from the Runic Stones, through Gustav Vasa's bible and into the popular culture of the 20th/21st centuries. At no stage has is it ever moved faster than the last 30/40 years.
> 
> The issue with English is very interesting indeed as it is indeed a very mixed language. Is it a Latin language? Is it a North European language from the Germanic sub-group? Is it ......? The reality is that it is a complete melange of languages from the Proto Indo-European language and will continue to develop and change. One of the most interesting aspects of the rise and rise of Social Networking and sms culture is the number of people now writing regularly in the English language. It is estimated that TEN times as many people in the UK now write regularly in English as five years ago. I see that as very positive. (I am less positive about txt speak!) Equally I am a member of Scandi forums where sometimes 50/60% of the posts are in English! Obviously many Scandis and Dutch are now on global forums writing comfortably in English.
> 
> Clearly, the Spanish are a long way behind the Scandis and the Dutch when it comes to learning English. There is no history of English being taught here and the level it was taught at up until just a few short years ago was truly appalling. I know Spanish teachers to this day who teach English here in Spain and who can hardly string a sentence together in English. I have gone through the next day's lesson with them and helped them with pronounciation, vocabulary and corrected major grammatical errors. Things ARE improving, there is a certain group of elder teens who think it is "chic" to speak English but we are at least two generations from the Spanish speaking English to the level of their N.European friends.



I´d forgotten that you´re a linguisist steve!! Whats needed now is a micro chip or something that you can plant in someones head that immediately enables them to speak fluently in a language of their choice!!

Wudnt tht b well wicked and cool!!

Jo xx


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## SteveHall

jojo said:


> I´d forgotten that you´re a linguisist steve!! Whats needed now is a micro chip or something that you can plant in someones head that immediately enables them to speak fluently in a language of their choice!!
> 
> Wudnt tht b well wicked and cool!!
> 
> Jo xx



I know a lot of people swear by a bottle of Jack Daniels. After that they are totally fluent in Double Dutch.


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## anles

But then Jojo, people who earn their pennies by teaching English to Spaniards and Spanish to ex-pats would all become redundant. And anyway learning is fun, especially another language and soooooo satisfying. Although I wouldn't say no to a microchip that helped me understand my daughter's maths homework ... no bu***** that just have one implanted in her.
Anles xxx


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## SunnySpain

Can you imagine going to a bar/restaurant in say Brighton and the owner or waitress does not speak English ?

This is really the point I was trying to make, as I find it quite ridiculous that so many expats that work in bars/restaurants cannot speak Spanish/Castellano

It's as if certain parts of Spain are divided into sections for Brits, Germans, Dutch, the odd cosmopolitan place and those for the Spanish.

In sum, I find it quite sad that such a situation was ever allowed to happen.

Dave


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## Stravinsky

SunnySpain said:


> Can you imagine going to a bar/restaurant in say Brighton and the owner or waitress does not speak English ?
> 
> This is really the point I was trying to make, as I find it quite ridiculous that so many expats that work in bars/restaurants cannot speak Spanish/Castellano
> 
> It's as if certain parts of Spain are divided into sections for Brits, Germans, Dutch, the odd cosmopolitan place and those for the Spanish.
> 
> In sum, I find it quite sad that such a situation was ever allowed to happen.
> 
> Dave


Well i guess if you have a bar where only Brits go in, its not really a problem. Personally I dont go in such bars that much, but every one to their own.


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## XTreme

Steve's a cunning linguist.....he certainly got it licked.


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## jojo

XTreme said:


> Steve's a cunning linguist.....he certainly got it licked.



So I've heard!!!!!!!!

Jo xx


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## SteveHall

Ignoring completely XTreme's last post, I have taught literally hundreds of expats Spanish here. At one stage we were regularly topping 800 and even went over 1,000 on a few weeks. I have "some" experience then. 

Sadly, the retiree in the expat areas will make little effort and will struggle to get much more than a beer or a wine. He will choose from the menu according to what he/she understands rather than what he actually wants. In many cases that is why they came to places like Torrevieja, Orihulea Costa, Gran Alacant, Torremolinos, Camposol etc. Before they even came they chose such areas because they "thought" they could get by without any Spanish. Obviously, everyone's definition of "get by" is different and "un poco" means from "Dos pintos, por fa" to almost complete fluency. Somebody working here will almost always NEED to speak good Spanish. Equally those who live out of the expat enclaves with Brit bars, SKY TV and British Legions will find they need to get to a decent level quite quickly as María in el todo a cien will not speak English and if you want Paco to cut your meat the way you are used to in the carnecería you are going to have to learn the word for ribs or tripe. 

I myself could never consider living in a country where I did not speak the language and I did my best to assist the newcomers but at the end of the day it is up to each and every one of us to decide at what level we want to speak the local language.


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## jojo

SteveHall said:


> Ignoring completely XTreme's last post, I have taught literally hundreds of expats Spanish here. At one stage we were regularly topping 800 and even went over 1,000 on a few weeks. I have "some" experience then.
> 
> Sadly, the retiree in the expat areas will make little effort and will struggle to get much more than a beer or a wine. He will choose from the menu according to what he/she understands rather than what he actually wants. In many cases that is why they came to places like Torrevieja, Orihulea Costa, Gran Alacant, Torremolinos, Camposol etc. Before they even came they chose such areas because they "thought" they could get by without any Spanish. Obviously, everyone's definition of "get by" is different and "un poco" means from "Dos pintos, por fa" to almost complete fluency. Somebody working here will almost always NEED to speak good Spanish. Equally those who live out of the expat enclaves with Brit bars, SKY TV and British Legions will find they need to get to a decent level quite quickly as María in el todo a cien will not speak English and if you want Paco to cut your meat the way you are used to in the carnecería you are going to have to learn the word for ribs or tripe.
> 
> I myself could never consider living in a country where I did not speak the language and I did my best to assist the newcomers but at the end of the day it is up to each and every one of us to decide at what level we want to speak the local language.


Altho I think everyone should at least try and I think its rude to the Spanish people not to. I´m also of the opinion to live and let live. If people want to hide away in Expatshire and not intergrate then so be it. Spains a big enough place I s'pose!!!!

Jo xxx


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## XTreme

jojo said:


> If people want to hide away in Expatshire and not intergrate then so be it.


But the problem is that these type of people create a "them" and "us" situation.....which doesn't help those of us who are trying to do business here.

Yes....you can get round that eventually.....but the barriers do go up until you get known and accepted.

And the ironic thing about these Brit enclaves is generally the people there are the ones who complain most about other nationalities moving in and creating their own little communities in Britain.

Being in possession of a British Passport.....aka _The Moron Licence_ doesn't do us many favours!


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## jojo

XTreme said:


> But the problem is that these type of people create a "them" and "us" situation.....which doesn't help those of us who are trying to do business here.
> 
> Yes....you can get round that eventually.....but the barriers do go up until you get known and accepted.
> 
> And the ironic thing about these Brit enclaves is generally the people there are the ones who complain most about other nationalities moving in and creating their own little communities in Britain.
> 
> Being in possession of a British Passport.....aka _The Moron Licence_ doesn't do us many favours!


I agree, but does it actually matter??? Some people want to have their "Britain abroad" and yes, they´re very often the people who moan about foreigners etc.. But like I say, live and let live! 

Humans are a trible lot and thats what they´re doing, forming their own little tribes in Spain

Jo xxxx


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## XTreme

jojo said:


> I agree, but does it actually matter???


Put it this way Jo.....if your husband opened his business here and found doors closed to him because he was a Brit (and all the baggage that goes with it)....then yes it would matter.


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## anles

I think it does matter... if you are an immigrant you have a duty to learn the language of your country of adoption, to respect the culture and to adapt. This doesn't mean losing your own identity or that you cannot share your own culture with your neighbours, but you cannot impose it on them. 
If you go to the countryside, you should not drop litter, if you live in a block of flats you should not play loud music after 10pm, all these things are our rights and duties of living in society... while I respect most people's opinions and certainly respect everyone's right to have their own opinion, there are opinions that are not acceptable (and to quote Steve..) y punto.
It's true we are tribal, sociable animals in general, the main reason people form expat or ethnical groups, imo stems from the lack of ability to integrate. So live and let live, in my opinion is relative... I would not like to harbouring a paedophile in my small community, nor an extreme fanatic of any belief. One has to earn the right to be allowed to "live" by being a decent member of society and respecting other who have also earned this right.
Anles xx


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## Caz.I

XTreme said:


> Put it this way Jo.....if your husband opened his business here and found doors closed to him because he was a Brit (and all the baggage that goes with it)....then yes it would matter.


Yes, I agree with you Xtreme. I think that those expats who have refused to try to integrate to any degree, have created a stereotype of Brits which causes resentment and suspicion, and creates problems for the rest of us.


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## DH1875

XTreme said:


> Steve's a cunning linguist.....he certainly got it licked.


Very good, had a little chuckle at that one.


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## Tallulah

jojo;136900
Humans are a trible lot and thats what they´re doing said:


> That's why we love this forum - we all get together, put on our union Jack undies and have a chat. Anyone for a cuppa and a crumpet!?!


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## jojo

XTreme said:


> Put it this way Jo.....if your husband opened his business here and found doors closed to him because he was a Brit (and all the baggage that goes with it)....then yes it would matter.


Yes maybe it would matter, altho a friend of his who lives and works in Marbella doesnt speak a word of Spanish and has two businesses and employs bilingual staff. But I suppose I've been thinking more about the retired.

When you think about it tho its a pretty big, world wide topic. Most countries have their areas of "expats", immigrants etc who dont intergrate with the nationals, they gradually do as the generations become more involved with life outside of their communities, but its not an exclusive problem to Spain or british expats


Jo xx


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## SteveHall

Tevez 2-0 Oops wrong forum!


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## Stravinsky

Sorry

You dont have a duty to do _anything_ other than keep to the laws of the land. At the end of the day its a free world. Some people don't want to integrate. They arent interested. So they live where they live without learning the language and they enjoy living in their little world. You _can_ do it. It _is_ possible.

Of course when you have to work its a different thing, but theres nothing written in stone that says "thou shalt learn Spanish"


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## jojo

Tallulah said:


> That's why we love this forum - we all get together, put on our union Jack undies and have a chat. Anyone for a cuppa and a crumpet!?!


This is the time when we should all retire to the "lounge"! Its a bit scary in there tho?????

I´m deliberately ignoring Steve who´s trying to turn the talk round to football 

Jo xxx


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## Stravinsky

jojo said:


> This is the time when we should all retire to the "lounge"! Its a bit scary in there tho?????
> 
> I´m deliberately ignoring Steve who´s trying to turn the talk round to football
> 
> Jo xxx


He's right though, it is 2 - 0


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## SteveHall

I was at a business lunch recently - 45 expat businesses and only 7 owners/directors felt comfortable sitting on the table with the representative from the Junta de Andalucía who spoke little English. Embarassing. Nice guy, lots of subvenciones to hand around and a good contact. We were discussing whether the grant applications should be in English/German too. The consensus of opinion on our table was "No. If the business can't be bothere to learn Spanish why should the Junta support it?" 

That would not have been the consensus on the other tables!


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## jojo

Stravinsky said:


> He's right though, it is 2 - 0



NOOOOOOOOOO!!!! I shall send you both off to the lounge!!!! Are you not watching the grand pricks Strav???

Jo xx


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## Chica

SteveHall said:


> I was at a business lunch recently - 45 expat businesses and only 7 owners/directors felt comfortable sitting on the table with the representative from the Junta de Andalucía who spoke little English. Embarassing. Nice guy, lots of subvenciones to hand around and a good contact. We were discussing whether the grant applications should be in English/German too. The consensus of opinion on our table was "No. If the business can't be bothere to learn Spanish why should the Junta support it?"
> 
> That would not have been the consensus on the other tables!


Well, with Spain in the position that it's in I would have thought they would bend over backwards to encourage foreign businesses and not document in the other 2 major languages in Spain. As we all know it takes a long time to really understand the language, especially at that level.


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## SteveHall

Yes BUT this was GIVING AWAY money and the opinions ran that if the owner has shown so little commitment to Spain that he/she cannot learn the language why should the Junta hand over monies?


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## jojo

SteveHall said:


> Yes BUT this was GIVING AWAY money and the opinions ran that if the owner has shown so little commitment to Spain that he/she cannot learn the language why should the Junta hand over monies?



Because in these troubled times and in the interest of business its "all hands on deck"

As I say, the world is becoming a smaller place and businesses are now becoming global and international. We have to start adapting and acceptiong. In a few generations language wil become one!

Jo xxx


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## Chica

Talking of languages, why didn't they take ESPERANTO seriously??? This would make it easier for all of us. Does anyone speak it? Steve?


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## XTreme

They were giving away money.....and I didn't get a bloody invite?


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## SteveHall

This Wednesday, Hotel Lorcrimar, Nueva Andalucia. Business dress - leave your donkey at the door.


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## Caz.I

jojo said:


> Because in these troubled times and in the interest of business its "all hands on deck"
> 
> As I say, the world is becoming a smaller place and businesses are now becoming global and international. We have to start adapting and acceptiong. In a few generations language wil become one!
> 
> Jo xxx


Well I kind of agree and disagree with that. I think business owners in Spain should at least have some working knowledge of Spanish, but like Chica says, it takes a long time time to get to a level of fluency where you can understand all manner of bureaucracy, and I think the Junta do tend to be a bit insular sometimes when as, you say, we are in a global economy. Mind you, depends how simple or difficult the form is - if it is just "nombre" and "apellido" there is no excuse! But often forms of this sort are written in a jargon which is hard to comprehend, hence in the UK they had the "plain English" campaign. When I have been confused by something on a form here, often Spanish speakers cant figure out what is meant either!
I think true integration is a two-way street, and it is of value to both parties to make serious attempts to integrate and assist with integration.


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## Stravinsky

SteveHall said:


> This Wednesday, Hotel Lorcrimar, Nueva Andalucia. Business dress - leave your donkey at the door.



That'll suit him ...... Xtreme likes wearing dresses


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## SteveHall

Yes, Caz.I I think we are almost agreeing even if we come at it from different perspectives. The fact that they sent a representative to the meeting was encouraging but I wonder in how many countries in Europe somebody responsible for economic development would not speak English?

Taking it one stage further, in Torrevieja with a 52% non-Spanish presence on the padrón only one of the 25 councillors speaks English proficiently and that person has now had to be made the councillor responsible for foreigners. Poor Ol' Pedro, he only has to worry about 55,000 nuevos torrevejenses from 150 nationalities!!


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## XTreme

Stravinsky said:


> That'll suit him ...... Xtreme likes wearing dresses


Reported to Mods! 

And Steve.....I think I'm going to be in Torre on Wednesday seeing clients! On a motorcycle!


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## SteveHall

Your clients will be on a motorcycle? You should all have a lot in common.


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## XTreme

SteveHall said:


> Your clients will be on a motorcycle? You should all have a lot in common.


No....I'll be on a motorcycle! I'm a rugged individualist I am! Weather permitting!


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## Caz.I

SteveHall said:


> Yes, Caz.I I think we are almost agreeing even if we come at it from different perspectives. The fact that they sent a representative to the meeting was encouraging but I wonder in how many countries in Europe somebody responsible for economic development would not speak English?
> 
> Taking it one stage further, in Torrevieja with a 52% non-Spanish presence on the padrón only one of the 25 councillors speaks English proficiently and that person has now had to be made the councillor responsible for foreigners. Poor Ol' Pedro, he only has to worry about 55,000 nuevos torrevejenses from 150 nationalities!!


Yes it's odd. In Fuengirola too, with a fairly high Brit population, many of the lawyers don't seem to be fluent, which they must know is not good business sense. I went to one, and she was a young lawyer with some sort of certificate in English proudly displayed on the wall. She spoke with an unintelligible Andalucian accent, and when I had difficulty with some of the subtleties of what she was saying, she tried to speak in English but really struggled to be fluent.


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## Tallulah

Now there's a business opportunity for Spanish speaking Brit expats - handholding the newly arrived and taking them through the legalities, escorting them to gestors, etc. Might stop them shouting SLOWER AND LOUDER in English to be understood!!!


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## anles

> You dont have a duty to do anything other than keep to the laws of the land. At the end of the day its a free world. Some people don't want to integrate. They arent interested. So they live where they live without learning the language and they enjoy living in their little world. You can do it. It is possible.


I think the belief that you don't have a duty to be part of society.. that it's a free world is part of the problem of society in general and many of the things people who have left Britain recently complain of. The one thing people value here is the sense of community, of belonging and of being an important part of that small social group, accepted and respected; people go out of their way to make you feel part of it and you go out of your way by making an effort to integrate. 
I don't disbelieve that there are people who survive without speaking the language, I have seen it myself when I have met people from certain areas, but here i don't think it would be possible. The doctors only speak Spanish or Gallego, as do the notary, the lawyers, the town hall staff and the police. How would you sort out even the most minor problem? 
Many people who aren't bothered about integrating, don't bother that much either about keeping the laws, driving illegal vehicles, having illegal sky TV, etc. 
You _can _go through life with the opinion that as long as aren't actually breaking the law you don't have to be civilised or that you are totally justified in behaving in a totally anti-social manner, I agree, but how much nicer it is to live in a place where the neighbours look out for you, where the Brits who have lived here longer help the new arrivals, returning the favour we say... or giving back something to the community.
Anles


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## Tallulah

anles said:


> I think the belief that you don't have a duty to be part of society.. that it's a free world is part of the problem of society in general and many of the things people who have left Britain recently complain of. The one thing people value here is the sense of community, of belonging and of being an important part of that small social group, accepted and respected; people go out of their way to make you feel part of it and you go out of your way by making an effort to integrate.
> I don't disbelieve that there are people who survive without speaking the language, I have seen it myself when I have met people from certain areas, but here i don't think it would be possible. The doctors only speak Spanish or Gallego, as do the notary, the lawyers, the town hall staff and the police. How would you sort out even the most minor problem?
> Many people who aren't bothered about integrating, don't bother that much either about keeping the laws, driving illegal vehicles, having illegal sky TV, etc.
> You _can _go through life with the opinion that as long as aren't actually breaking the law you don't have to be civilised or that you are totally justified in behaving in a totally anti-social manner, I agree, but how much nicer it is to live in a place where the neighbours look out for you, where the Brits who have lived here longer help the new arrivals, returning the favour we say... or giving back something to the community.
> Anles


Where did you get that quote from? But absolutely agreed, Anles. I think it really depends at the end of the day on the lifestyle that one requires. If you are for example, financially independent, retired, etc you can create your own little utopia wherever - one doesn't have to integrate on a daily basis unless certain services are required. And that goes for the natives as well as expats too. There are those of us who are not living in those particular enclaves of expats who wish to integrate and although struggle, are willing to overcome their failings and gain some confidence and at least try - what I find so wonderful about the people here is that they are at least willing and extremely welcoming, especially when i first came here and now i have no problem in being able to communicate with them fully in their own language, all the better. But at the end of the day, if I want to have some sort of "life" here I have to - I have school age children and we're forever in meetings of some sort, or popping down the doctors, meeting notaries/bank managers - and that's at the end of the day what it is - not some glorified holiday, but an actual life, just not in the country of my birth.
Tallulah.xx


----------



## jojo

sadly I´ve had another power cut all afternoon so I´ve been forced to be silent and I had so much to say!!!! 
Jo


----------



## Tallulah

jojo said:


> sadly I´ve had another power cut all afternoon so I´ve been forced to be silent and I had so much to say!!!!
> Jo


In what particular language, jo?!?!

Tallulah.xx


----------



## XTreme

Here's a public service message for all you babbling women!


----------



## jojo

I cant get links today cos my "ping" is too low!!!!!! Its taking me forever to type and send anything as it is!! 

Jo xxxxx


----------



## XTreme

jojo said:


> I cant get links today cos my "ping" is too low!!!!!!


Have you tried ponging?


----------



## jojo

Caz.I said:


> Yes it's odd. In Fuengirola too, with a fairly high Brit population, many of the lawyers don't seem to be fluent, which they must know is not good business sense. I went to one, and she was a young lawyer with some sort of certificate in English proudly displayed on the wall. She spoke with an unintelligible Andalucian accent, and when I had difficulty with some of the subtleties of what she was saying, she tried to speak in English but really struggled to be fluent.



So you´re in Fuengirola too Caz?? Stevie country!!!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## Tallulah

jojo said:


> I cant get links today cos my "ping" is too low!!!!!! Its taking me forever to type and send anything as it is!!
> 
> Jo xxxxx


Yes - mine too, link is sssooooooo sllloooooow. Thunderstorm here now - who's been at the voodoo chanting?

Tallulah.xx


----------



## XTreme

Tallulah said:


> Yes - mine too, link is sssooooooo sllloooooow. Thunderstorm here now - who's been at the voodoo chanting?
> 
> Tallulah.xx


Here's the crap vid Tally wanted me to post!


----------



## Tallulah

XTreme said:


> Here's the crap vid Tally wanted me to post!
> 
> YouTube - Undertones - Teenage Kicks (Real Promo Video)



Thanks for the service - wrong thread though!! It was on "Expats in Spain" thread. Never mind..... Women, huh...never satisfied.


----------



## XTreme

Tallulah said:


> Thanks for the service - wrong thread though!! It was on "Expats in Spain" thread. Never mind..... Women, huh...never satisfied.


I stuck it in the wrong place?


----------



## Tallulah

XTreme said:


> I stuck it in the wrong place?


Story of your life, XTreme?!?!


----------



## jojo

XTreme said:


> Have you tried ponging?


 I´ve only just learnt about pings, are there really pongs too??

jo xx


----------



## XTreme

jojo said:


> I´ve only just learnt about pings, are there really pongs too??


Take a whiff of Steve Hall's socks!


----------



## Caz.I

jojo said:


> So you´re in Fuengirola too Caz?? Stevie country!!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Yes, afraid I am - for my sins. BTW I couldnt access that Harry Enfield video either, but luckily The Undertones were live and kicking! Feel much better now.


----------



## SunnySpain

Going back to my original point, if I may....


My OH was livid that neither of these expats spoke any Spanish what-so-ever and now it's going take me some time to persuade her to learn more English

I would also like to make the point that we know of numerous other Spaniards and South Americans who feel exactly the same as my OH about non-Spanish speaking expats; especially those who work in face-to-face customer service jobs

From their viewpoint is one thing to be invaded by expats seeking more sun and a cheaper cost of living and another to be invaded by people expecting the locals to speak their language and yet they make no effort themselves to learn even the basics in Spanish

A Spanish couple we know inform us that their English expat neighbours have never communicated a single word of Spanish to them in 6 years despite continually asking our Spanish friends for favors (in English). 

To cut a long story short, they think it's pathetic and were both shocked and pleased at how well I speak the lingo, despite me being far from fluent.

They say it's about making an effort and respecting the fact that you actually live in Spain. Personally, I agree with the Spanish on this one - 100%

Dave


----------



## jojo

SunnySpain said:


> Going back to my original point, if I may....
> 
> 
> My OH was livid that neither of these expats spoke any Spanish what-so-ever and now it's going take me some time to persuade her to learn more English
> 
> I would also like to make the point that we know of numerous other Spaniards and South Americans who feel exactly the same as my OH about non-Spanish speaking expats; especially those who work in face-to-face customer service jobs
> 
> From their viewpoint is one thing to be invaded by expats seeking more sun and a cheaper cost of living and another to be invaded by people expecting the locals to speak their language and yet they make no effort themselves to learn even the basics in Spanish
> 
> A Spanish couple we know inform us that their English expat neighbours have never communicated a single word of Spanish to them in 6 years despite continually asking our Spanish friends for favors (in English).
> 
> To cut a long story short, they think it's pathetic and were both shocked and pleased at how well I speak the lingo, despite me being far from fluent.
> 
> They say it's about making an effort and respecting the fact that you actually live in Spain. Personally, I agree with the Spanish on this one - 100%
> 
> Dave



Inspite of everything I have said I totally agree with you Dave, and I personally am desperately trying to learn the language and want to be able to converse comfortably in Spanish (altho its gonna take a long time). Every opportunity I get to speak Spanish I try, be it in the petrol station, supermarket, restaurant, neighbours....... I ALWAYS attempt to say something in Spanish. I think its rude not to!

However, there are some retired expats who move to "expatshire" and just want a peaceful, sunny life and simply mix with their own and there are expats who work in these sectors. They´re not necessarily being rude or trying to offend by not speaking Spanish, they just find it too difficult and wanna be here not in the UK

Jo xxx


----------



## XTreme

Jo....I think you'll find all they _really_ want is Britain in the sun. Nothing else.

My advice? Stay over there and buy a sunbed!


----------



## jojo

XTreme said:


> Jo....I think you'll find all they _really_ want is Britain in the sun. Nothing else.
> 
> My advice? Stay over there and buy a sunbed!


No I think they want to live the life they had when they went on their two week holiday to benidorm!

Jo xxxxxx


----------



## XTreme

jojo said:


> No I think they want to live the life they had when they went on their two week holiday to benidorm!


They want to live a life of permanent drunken vomiting and sodomy? 

Hell.....it's worse than I thought!


----------



## jojo

XTreme said:


> They want to live a life of permanent drunken vomiting and sodomy?
> 
> Hell.....it's worse than I thought!


Its horrible isnt it. But I´m convinced thats why people wanna live here. cheap booze, ****, sun, sea, sangria... everydays a holiday!! YAY!!! 

Jo xxx


----------



## Tallulah

XTreme said:


> They want to live a life of permanent drunken vomiting and sodomy?
> 
> Hell.....it's worse than I thought!


Add a donkey and a website and it's paradise!!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

I haven't read all the posts on this subject, but here's my opinion!
I think it depends on who, what, where, why...??
As JoJo has said, some people just want to move to "Expatshire" and don't really want to intergrate. Some people desperately want to blend in a bit more and find it very difficult to learn the language find Spanish friends etc. Others just find it really difficult to learn another language. (We can't all be good at everything. I couldn't be the moderator on a forum!) Everybody's different and there's room for all at the moment.
As far as bar staff go, I was in Orihuela in Feb. We were there for a weekend and apart from breakfast in the flat we ate and snacked out. *Only one restaurant we went to had Spanish Staff*. The rest were British or from Eastern Europe. I know because we asked. I was with my husband who is Spanish and 2 other friends and we are all fluent Spanish speakers. We always started in Spanish, but ended up in a mix of Spanish, English or French!
My friend went to buy "El País" and was told "We don't sell Spanish newspapers". We wanted to watch a football game to be told "We don't get Spanish stations on the tv" Now that's weird I think


----------



## jojo

Pesky Wesky said:


> I haven't read all the posts on this subject, but here's my opinion!
> I think it depends on who, what, where, why...??
> As JoJo has said, some people just want to move to "Expatshire" and don't really want to intergrate. Some people desperately want to blend in a bit more and find it very difficult to learn the language find Spanish friends etc. Others just find it really difficult to learn another language. (We can't all be good at everything. I couldn't be the moderator on a forum!) Everybody's different and there's room for all at the moment.


There you see, you've managed to say in one paragraph what I´ve been trying to say in several posts and I still couldnt get my point across as well as you 

Thank you!!!

Jo xxxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Ha Ha Jo Jo,
I don't know your current marital status, but the best way to learn Spanish is to get into a relationship, seriously!
I speak fluent Spanish because...
I've lived here since 1987
I've *worked *here since 1987
My husband is Spanish
My daughter is Spanish. I can't imagine not being able to communicate with my daughter in her native tongue, although i know it happens.
I always *wanted *to learn the language, and still am learning...


----------



## XTreme

Tallulah said:


> Add a donkey and a website and it's paradise!!


They're doomed to failure without a donkey and a nice website Tally!


----------



## Tallulah

XTreme said:


> They're doomed to failure without a donkey and a nice website Tally!


You are truly a shining example to us all, XT, on how we should be doing it!


----------



## Tallulah

Pesky Wesky said:


> Ha Ha Jo Jo,
> I don't know your current marital status, but the best way to learn Spanish is to get into a relationship, seriously!
> I speak fluent Spanish because...
> I've lived here since 1987
> I've *worked *here since 1987
> My husband is Spanish
> My daughter is Spanish. I can't imagine not being able to communicate with my daughter in her native tongue, although i know it happens.
> I always *wanted *to learn the language, and still am learning...


Just a quick question for you Pesky Wesky, have you managed to keep uptodate with your daughter's English? I ask because we came here four years ago and obviously now it's a bit of a struggle to get them to talk in English. And yes, can't fault getting into a relationship with a gorgeous Gallego!!

Tallulah.x


----------



## jojo

Pesky Wesky said:


> Ha Ha Jo Jo,
> I don't know your current marital status, but the best way to learn Spanish is to get into a relationship, seriously!
> I speak fluent Spanish because...
> I've lived here since 1987
> I've *worked *here since 1987
> My husband is Spanish
> My daughter is Spanish. I can't imagine not being able to communicate with my daughter in her native tongue, although i know it happens.
> I always *wanted *to learn the language, and still am learning...



I´m married to and english man who commutes to the UK most of the time, so I think the relationship thing is a bit if a nono  - but it does seem thats the best way to learn Spanish. (hhhhmmmm )

Does your daughter speak English???

Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

I didn't mean to put myself over as a "shining example", just letting you know my circumstances which are very different to an elderly couple coming over for 6 months a year to avoid Britain's rain and cold.
With Inés, I've done what I can. We go to England nearly every year and I've sent her to camp and day activities when she was younger in England with native speakers. (I can recommend a really good place if any one wants to know) I speak to her in English 80% of the time. She watched English videos etc practically all the time when she was younger. She will nearly always speak to me in Spanish, but she CAN speak to me in English. Oh and I'm an English teacher.
Any way, perhaps we're getting off the subject. Please see my thread about English summer camps


----------



## Pesky Wesky

PS I've just seen it was XT who was the "Shining Example" sorry!


----------



## Tallulah

Pesky Wesky said:


> PS I've just seen it was XT who was the "Shining Example" sorry!


That's OK - and credit where credit's due in your case, too PW!! Interesting to see what comes up on the summer camp thread, although mine are still a little young for that I think.

Thanks,
Tallulah.x


----------



## SteveHall

Pesky Wesky said:


> As far as bar staff go, I was in Orihuela in Feb. We were there for a weekend and apart from breakfast in the flat we ate and snacked out. *Only one restaurant we went to had Spanish Staff*. The rest were British or from Eastern Europe. I know because we asked. I was with my husband who is Spanish and 2 other friends and we are all fluent Spanish speakers. We always started in Spanish, but ended up in a mix of Spanish, English or French!
> My friend went to buy "El País" and was told "We don't sell Spanish newspapers". We wanted to watch a football game to be told "We don't get Spanish stations on the tv" Now that's weird I think



Yes, it's sad isn't it! Actually you were in Orihuela Costa and not Orihuela because the town itself is very Spanish and you most definitely would not have had those challenges. 

Orihulela Costa is 18 kms and several light years away. It has the dubious reputation of being the biggest most overgrown concrete jungle on the Costa Blanca. There is a vicious rumour going around that some of the councillors have visited the coastal strip but I think we can discard that - for nearly 10 years the council has vacuumed in the taxes and given almost zero in return. The new mayoress Mónica Lorente took office 2 years ago on the usual anti-corruption, new brooms, power to the people ticket but nothing seems to have changed. Her promises of listening to the expat parties - Claro y Los Verdes - have proven to be just that ..... promises. The rumour (most of Orihuela is based on rumour, conspiracy theory, inuendo etc) is that she was put up to get the macho Spanish vote. (She looks like an actress from a B-movie) Obviously, this is being expatshire there was massive vote-rigging allegations and counter-allegations. 

I think I even know the newsagent you mean - on La Florida? A friend who works as a translator for the UN in Geneva walked into the same place and could not believe that he could not get any Spanish diario. The same goes in La Bodega on La Siesta .....another place I boycott! 

To add to your liturgy. Two Spanish journalist friends of mine were "told off" for speaking Spanish for speaking in their mother tongue in a Brit bar. "Don't you know this is an English bar?" They were still laughing when I walked in (late) for a meeting. The same waitress walked over to me and asked in English what I wanted and I simply said (in Spanish) "I understand we are not allowed to speak in Spanish so we'll take our custom elsewhere". The Spaniards paid up and we walked over the road for our lunch ....... never to return. The funniest thing is that one of the guys is the editor of a local rag and the story (including the name of the bar) was in the next week's edition. 

Here's the rub. What were meeting up for? To follow up on a series we had been writing about expat integration that they had been running for a few weeks. All the good work of the Torry Army (Peña Interncaional del FC Torrevieja), Los costaleros and the Neighbourhood Watch was compromised by one stupid waitress! Oscar still jokes about it when we meet! 

You have just reminded me of another journo who wrote an article about the ONLY Spaniard to live on a whole urbanisation there and about how she felt isolated and marginalised in her own country! 

Ah, Orihuela Costa. Truly the Jewel of Expatshire ............ not!


----------



## Tallulah

SteveHall said:


> Yes, it's sad isn't it! Actually you were in Orihuela Costa and not Orihuela because the town itself is very Spanish and you most definitely would not have had those challenges.
> 
> Orihulela Costa is 18 kms and several light years away. It has the dubious reputation of being the biggest most overgrown concrete jungle on the Costa Blanca. There is a vicious rumour going around that some of the councillors have visited the coastal strip but I think we can discard that - for nearly 10 years the council has vacuumed in the taxes and given almost zero in return. The new mayoress Mónica Lorente took office 2 years ago on the usual anti-corruption, new brooms, power to the people ticket but nothing seems to have changed. Her promises of listening to the expat parties - Claro y Los Verdes - have proven to be just that ..... promises. The rumour (most of Orihuela is based on rumour, conspiracy theory, inuendo etc) is that she was put up to get the macho Spanish vote. (She looks like an actress from a B-movie) Obviously, this is being expatshire there was massive vote-rigging allegations and counter-allegations.
> 
> I think I even know the newsagent you mean - on La Florida? A friend who works as a translator for the UN in Geneva walked into the same place and could not believe that he could not get any Spanish diario. The same goes in La Bodega on La Siesta .....another place I boycott!
> 
> To add to your liturgy. Two Spanish journalist friends of mine were "told off" for speaking Spanish for speaking in their mother tongue in a Brit bar. "Don't you know this is an English bar?" They were still laughing when I walked in (late) for a meeting. The same waitress walked over to me and asked in English what I wanted and I simply said (in Spanish) "I understand we are not allowed to speak in Spanish so we'll take our custom elsewhere". The Spaniards paid up and we walked over the road for our lunch ....... never to return. The funniest thing is that one of the guys is the editor of a local rag and the story (including the name of the bar) was in the next week's edition.
> 
> Here's the rub. What were meeting up for? To follow up on a series we had been writing about expat integration that they had been running for a few weeks. All the good work of the Torry Army (Peña Interncaional del FC Torrevieja), Los costaleros and the Neighbourhood Watch was compromised by one stupid waitress! Oscar still jokes about it when we meet!
> 
> You have just reminded me of another journo who wrote an article about the ONLY Spaniard to live on a whole urbanisation there and about how she felt isolated and marginalised in her own country!
> 
> Ah, Orihuela Costa. Truly the Jewel of Expatshire ............ not!



Where would you truly be happy living, Steve - apart from in the arms of Ana/Natascha?!?!


----------



## SteveHall

I am VERY happy here in Los Boliches. 

To paraphrase George Orwell, "Spain is good, the worst excesses of expatshire. Bad"


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Interesting about Orihuela. Haven't got time to write back though. I've got cleaning, getting lunch and going to work on the list to be done before 13:30!


----------



## jojo

Steve you live in fuengirola!!! Thats pretty much expatshire isnt it???????

Jo


----------



## SteveHall

Pesky Wesky said:


> Interesting about Orihuela. Haven't got time to write back though. I've got cleaning, getting lunch and going to work on the list to be done before 13:30!


Tranki.....we look forward to your thoughts.


----------



## jojo

Pesky Wesky said:


> Interesting about Orihuela. Haven't got time to write back though. I've got cleaning, getting lunch and going to work on the list to be done before 13:30!



stop it!! I´ve got soooooo much housework I should be doing 

Jo xxx


----------



## Tallulah

jojo said:


> Steve you live in fuengirola!!! Thats pretty much expatshire isnt it???????
> 
> Jo


You forget that he is a man of many tongues, Jo, and is able to blend into the background seamlessly - bit like James Bond!!

Tallulah.xx


----------



## jojo

Tallulah said:


> You forget that he is a man of many tongues, Jo, and is able to blend into the background seamlessly - bit like James Bond!!
> 
> Tallulah.xx



JAMES BOND???????????????????????? STEVE???????????????????


----------



## Tallulah

jojo said:


> JAMES BOND???????????????????????? STEVE???????????????????


Well, he was going on about his strap on mozzy gadget the other day


----------



## jojo

Tallulah said:


> Well, he was going on about his strap on mozzy gadget the other day



yes well I had to stop myself writing an answer to that, and it wasnt about his likeness to JAMES BOND!!!!!! PMSL!

Jo xxxxx


----------



## SteveHall

The thing I LOVE about Los Boliches is that I can be a million miles from expatshire or right in the middle of it if I want to be (for B2B meeetings etc) I have GREAT Spanish tapas bars, I have the sea at 200m, and the mountains behind me. I can be on the coastal train in 2 mins, at the airport in 40 mins, in Málaga in 45 mins and in Churriana in about the same! 

It took me 8 years to find where I REALLY wanted to be so it amuses me when I read people writing from the UK/Eire, "Where is the best place to live?" Guys, you need to be here to decide what is good for you.


----------



## jojo

SteveHall said:


> The thing I LOVE about Los Boliches is that I can be a million miles from expatshire or right in the middle of it if I want to be (for B2B meeetings etc) I have GREAT Spanish tapas bars, I have the sea at 200m, and the mountains behind me. I can be on the coastal train in 2 mins, at the airport in 40 mins, in Málaga in 45 mins and in Churriana in about the same!
> 
> It took me 8 years to find where I REALLY wanted to be so it amuses me when I read people writing from the UK/Eire, "Where is the best place to live?" Guys, you need to be here to decide what is good for you.


JAMES BOND! Thats creased me up all morning!!!!!!!!

Jo xxxx


----------



## Tallulah

jojo said:


> JAMES BOND! Thats creased me up all morning!!!!!!!!
> 
> Jo xxxx


And he can do all that mileage in his Aston Martin. Amazing.


----------



## jojo

Tallulah said:


> And he can do all that mileage in his Aston Martin. Amazing.


oh, of course! an Aston Martin $$$$$$$!!!!!!!! Hey, Stevie, you know you offered your services to me the other day...................??????????

Jo xxx


----------



## Caz.I

SteveHall said:


> The thing I LOVE about Los Boliches is that I can be a million miles from expatshire or right in the middle of it if I want to be (for B2B meeetings etc) I have GREAT Spanish tapas bars, I have the sea at 200m, and the mountains behind me. I can be on the coastal train in 2 mins, at the airport in 40 mins, in Málaga in 45 mins and in Churriana in about the same!
> 
> It took me 8 years to find where I REALLY wanted to be so it amuses me when I read people writing from the UK/Eire, "Where is the best place to live?" Guys, you need to be here to decide what is good for you.


Yes I think that is true, though I still havent decided where I want to settle yet!


----------



## Tallulah

Caz.I said:


> Yes I think that is true, though I still havent decided where I want to settle yet!


Caz.I. You really are in a Quandary of Solace. ahahahaha.


----------



## Normatheexdiva

Tallulah said:


> Caz.I. You really are in a Quandary of Solace. ahahahaha.


LOL.
Yo, Tallulah, I have been experiencing some problems with my phone cable.
I need a new one as it takes ages to connect and there have been pressing points to be made at other websites.
Not been here at all, but my good friend has been telling me all.
Well, most.
OK, a bit.

My neighbours forced me at gunpoint to go and drink coffee with them each day. I can almost understand Gallego now. Mind you, that's Lugo Gallego, not Vigo Gallego. 
It's much clearer when my brilliant and gorgeous language tutor helps me...are you reading this? 
You know who you are....
What about those reflexive verb exercises then?
Actually, on second thoughts...


----------



## Tallulah

Normatheexdiva said:


> LOL.
> Yo, Tallulah, I have been experiencing some problems with my phone cable.
> I need a new one as it takes ages to connect and there have been pressing points to be made at other websites.
> Not been here at all, but my good friend has been telling me all.
> Well, most.
> OK, a bit.
> 
> My neighbours forced me at gunpoint to go and drink coffee with them each day. I can almost understand Gallego now. Mind you, that's Lugo Gallego, not Vigo Gallego.
> It's much clearer when my brilliant and gorgeous language tutor helps me...are you reading this?
> You know who you are....
> What about those reflexive verb exercises then?
> Actually, on second thoughts...


Norma!!! How you doing, Diva?!?! Glad you managed to get the message then from ou know who - it's been ages!! My god, they say the world is a small place - but Galicia is a postage stamp in comparison!! Seriously - it gave me chills!!
Tell me about the connection - we've had such crappy weather of late:rain: my links are sooo slooow.
Tallulah.xxxx


----------



## scharlack

In my opinion people can choose whether they want to integrate/speak the languge. It also comes to the need of really learning a language. 

I personally think integrating/learning the language will make life easier and cheaper. It will also keep your brain active (!), which is always good... there is never enough of learning


----------



## Normatheexdiva

I totally agree. I think it's helped my brain and I love Spanish and our Provincial language Galego. My big goal is to be able to write fluently in both languages. 
best to you,
Norma
x


QUOTE=scharlack;138218]In my opinion people can choose whether they want to integrate/speak the languge. It also comes to the need of really learning a language. 

I personally think integrating/learning the language will make life easier and cheaper. It will also keep your brain active (!), which is always good... there is never enough of learning [/QUOTE]


----------



## crookesey

SteveHall said:


> The thing I LOVE about Los Boliches is that I can be a million miles from expatshire or right in the middle of it if I want to be (for B2B meeetings etc) I have GREAT Spanish tapas bars, I have the sea at 200m, and the mountains behind me. I can be on the coastal train in 2 mins, at the airport in 40 mins, in Málaga in 45 mins and in Churriana in about the same!
> 
> It took me 8 years to find where I REALLY wanted to be so it amuses me when I read people writing from the UK/Eire, "Where is the best place to live?" Guys, you need to be here to decide what is good for you.


Steve,

It's taken us 30 years to narrow it down to beach front Mijas Costa, Benalmadena Pueblo and the Benissa coast. We don't like 75% of the UK city that we live in, but love where we live, so it's down to finding a particular place in the area that we like.

There are places in both Spain and the UK that we hate with avengeance, but the folk who live in them must feel differently. We must, over the years, have spent 12 months on the Costa Blanca, 6 months on the Mijas Costa and 6 months in other places that were OK for holidays but not to live.


----------



## chrisnation

*Acceptable?*



jojo said:


> When I used to work for the NHS in the UK, I used to take phone calls from people phoning in with questions about their illnesses etc. I used to get fairly regular phone calls from fluent speaking children asking for advise for their parents. When I'd ask to speak to the parent/patient, the child would say, "sorry my mum doesnt speak english"!! Now in the UK thats acceptable, however I personally used to think it was bloody rude and inconceivable that these parents hadnt even tried eventhough they had obviously been in the UK for sometime (hense their childrens fluency!!)
> 
> Well its the same here isnt it... and yes, I´m little miss hypocrite now!! Cos altho I try really hard wherever possible and have lessons, I´m hopeless! I always try and smile, appear friendly tho, cos communication is more than just language!
> 
> Jo


At a drop-in centre near me in Bristol, there is a sign on the window "English also spoken". 

Well, well, well. The richness and diversity of multiculturalism.


----------



## scharlack

chrisnation said:


> At a drop-in centre near me in Bristol, there is a sign on the window "English also spoken".
> 
> Well, well, well. The richness and diversity of multiculturalism.


I'm impressed!  :jaw:


----------



## frannrod

It's been interesting reading all this. We plan to move out in a year's time and I've been learning Spanish for two years now. We were in the Costa Blanca area a few weeks ago for a visit, and although I tried to initiate every conversation in Spanish, I was surprised at the number of Spaniards who wanted to practice their English on us! Obviously, being fair skinned and with a 6'4" tall hubby, they can spot us a mile away. On being greeted with a cheery "Good morning, what can I do for you?" in one shop, my husband said with a twinkle "Now then, how could you tell?", to which shopkeeper responded "You don't exactly look like a torero!". 

In all our dealings with hotel staff, waiters and shopkeepers etc on our holidays, the majority will persevere with my pathetic attempts to communicate in their language even though they are actually fluent in English (as becomes apparent when - inevitably - I have to admit defeat). 

My main point - if I have a point - is that although they are generally incredibly patient and obliging with my attempts to speak Spanish, they also seem very glad of an opportunity to use their English. So best of both worlds, I think.


----------



## Tallulah

frannrod said:


> It's been interesting reading all this. We plan to move out in a year's time and I've been learning Spanish for two years now. We were in the Costa Blanca area a few weeks ago for a visit, and although I tried to initiate every conversation in Spanish, I was surprised at the number of Spaniards who wanted to practice their English on us! Obviously, being fair skinned and with a 6'4" tall hubby, they can spot us a mile away. On being greeted with a cheery "Good morning, what can I do for you?" in one shop, my husband said with a twinkle "Now then, how could you tell?", to which shopkeeper responded "You don't exactly look like a torero!".
> 
> In all our dealings with hotel staff, waiters and shopkeepers etc on our holidays, the majority will persevere with my pathetic attempts to communicate in their language even though they are actually fluent in English (as becomes apparent when - inevitably - I have to admit defeat).
> 
> My main point - if I have a point - is that although they are generally incredibly patient and obliging with my attempts to speak Spanish, they also seem very glad of an opportunity to use their English. So best of both worlds, I think.


Well, good for you Fran. Obviously more English is spoken in heavier Expat areas - but it'll build up your confidence no end and you'll feel more comfortable and more a sense of belonging and integration perhaps if you are able to communicate more. It really is a two way street with a lot of the very friendly Spanish folk - they may be "retornados" and have fond memories of living in the UK themselves. They just might have to have a good grasp of English for work reasons. For whatever reason, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by it and you'll probably start off having "Spanglish" conversations - it's a great way of opening up your social circle - cuts down thumbing through dictionaries at any rate, grasping for the right word/phrase. There are always ways around it, even if you're not fluent. Congratulations anyway - I think you'll enjoy it so much more being here because of it.
Kind regards,
Tallulah.x


----------



## SteveHall

I am with Taliban 100% - proud of your efforts. Remember also that whilst you may "think" that he/she speaks great English , it may only be that they have the vocabulary of their respective professions. In other words the guy in the car hire company knows everyting about petrol, tank, accident, second driver but does not know a peach from a plum veal from eel wheras the waiter who seems to know every fruit on the planet would struggle with brakes and boots. 

Te doy mis enhorabuenas


----------



## XTreme

I was in Game in Eroski yesterday and the guy serving told me I was the first Guiri in the two years he'd worked there that had spoken to him in Spanish.

Obviously that doesn't mean no other Guiris in the area speak any Spanish, but it does go to show that they're not using every possibility to practice it.

And make no mistake, you'll learn more from a Spaniard who speaks a reasonable degree of English than you will from any book or private lesson from a tutor. 
Cos they've encountered the same problems as you, but in reverse......and they like to impart what they know and also to pick up a few pointers from you.
Both sides gain.....the Spaniards are more than willing cos it does help them with career opportunities....but it seems most Brits can't be arsed.


----------



## jojo

I always have a "lesson, game, chat" with the chap in my bank. Altho he speaks english, whenever I go in he or I will say. ok today we speak either spanish or english today and from that moment we ignore each other if we cheat!! I´ve learnt no end from him... altho I have problems remembering most of it!!

I´ve come across a lot of spanish who want to "practice" their english and we usually end up with them speaking english and me speaking spanish and kinda teaching each other in a "spanglish" kinda way.

The key is to ALWAYS at least try, always smile and laugh and make it fun! Conversation isnt just about language, its about communicating

Jo xx


----------



## SteveHall

Good point re career opportunities - the official Anadalucia language schools are massively over-subscribed with huge waiting lists especially in Málaga City and Vélez Málaga. (Young) Spaniards know that a good level of fluency in English is a great step up the career ladder. 

A good way to practise it to swap lessons/chats with Spaniards. You speak in English for an hour and they speak in Spanish for an hour. No money changes hands. It does NOT really matter that neither of you are TEFL or TESL trained as 99% of the people you will both meet in the street will not be either. Just talk about what interests you - sex'n'drugs, rock'n'roll, Argentinian politics........whatever. It does not matter - you'll be getting valuable practice and enjoying learning about something you like. I can talk in Spanish for days on football but I'd struggle on the word for a fishing rod as fly-fishing does not interest me and I have zero idea what a grey duster is in English never mind Spanish ..... although I feign interest when Manu bangs on about his fishing trips. In the same way, XTreme is proficient in chancing his arm with sub-30 guapitas. "Would you like to see my etchings etc?" (In his case, "Why don't you come over to see my donkey droppings etc?) In return he has learned every variation of "No, no way, no chance" and "You are old enough to be my grand-father" etc. Still, the world loves a tryer! 

The most important thing is ....ENJOY.


----------



## SteveHall

jojo said:


> The key is to ALWAYS at least try, always smile and laugh and make it fun! Conversation isnt just about language, its about communicating
> 
> Jo xx



ABSOLUTELY!! Spot on!!


----------



## Normatheexdiva

I do that too!
I was just in hospital for two weeks and my neurologist and I would play that game each day.
Laughing at yourself and generally being as charming and as funny as possible goes a long way.
x







jojo said:


> I always have a "lesson, game, chat" with the chap in my bank. Altho he speaks english, whenever I go in he or I will say. ok today we speak either spanish or english today and from that moment we ignore each other if we cheat!! I´ve learnt no end from him... altho I have problems remembering most of it!!
> 
> I´ve come across a lot of spanish who want to "practice" their english and we usually end up with them speaking english and me speaking spanish and kinda teaching each other in a "spanglish" kinda way.
> 
> The key is to ALWAYS at least try, always smile and laugh and make it fun! Conversation isnt just about language, its about communicating
> 
> Jo xx


----------



## XTreme

SteveHall said:


> In the same way, XTreme is proficient in chancing his arm with sub-30 guapitas. "Would you like to see my etchings etc?" (In his case, "Why don't you come over to see my donkey droppings etc?) In return he has learned every variation of "No, no way, no chance" and "You are old enough to be my grand-father" etc. Still, the world loves a tryer!


Well I'm yet to have my face slapped by an Espanola! 

However I can confirm that over the years I've been belted by so many Welsh birds it's beyond belief! And they hit hard!

I've taken more punishment than Richard Dunn did when he fought Muhammed Ali!


----------



## jojo

XTreme said:


> Well I'm yet to have my face slapped by an Espanola!
> 
> However I can confirm that over the years I've been belted by so many Welsh birds it's beyond belief! And they hit hard!
> 
> I've taken more punishment than Richard Dunn did when he fought Muhammed Ali!



proving that sub 30 españols are too polite and "welsh birds" know what you're all about maybe????????????????????????????

Jo xxx


----------



## XTreme

jojo said:


> proving that sub 30 españols are too polite and "welsh birds" know what you're all about maybe????????????????????????????
> 
> Jo xxx


No....I think Espanolas know a good thing when they see it!

Plus they don't have the hormonal imbalances that all you Brit women have!

God.....am I sick of that hormonal imbalance speech....."By the way I've been out shoplifting, deliberately trashed your car, and cut your bollocks off.....but it's not my fault cos it's my hormones".

My response is "You've been out shoplifting, deliberately trashed my car, and cut my bollocks off....and it's your hormones? No it's not.....it's because you're an effing nutter that's why".


----------



## SteveHall

XTreme said:


> I've taken more punishment than Richard Dunn did when he fought Muhammed Ali!


Which proves my point - the world loves a tryer and Dunn was definitely that! Bradford was proud of him and I could have had a sports centre named after me if I'd been prepared to be battered senseless in the ring! 


XTreme's point (seriously) is well made. You will never be harmed by practising your Spanish. Sadly, many will die on Spanish roads this weekend, others will die through natural causes but NOBODY will be hurt by getting the negative imperative wrong. Mmmm, is it ¡No hables con José! or ¡No hablas con José! ?
Me da igual ..... well actually it's ¡No hables! .....but you get my point!


----------



## jojo

XTreme said:


> No....I think Espanolas know a good thing when they see it!
> 
> Plus they don't have the hormonal imbalances that all you Brit women have!
> 
> God.....am I sick of that hormonal imbalance speech....."By the way I've been out shoplifting, deliberately trashed your car, and cut your bollocks off.....but it's not my fault cos it's my hormones".
> 
> My response is "You've been out shoplifting, deliberately trashed my car, and cut my bollocks off....and it's your hormones? No it's not.....it's because you're an effing nutter that's why".


We're not all like that, I cant remember ever cutting anyones bollox off eventho I know several people who deserve it and could do with losing em!!!!!!!!!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## XTreme

SteveHall said:


> I'd been prepared to be battered senseless in the ring!


Sounds like a weekend in Benidorm is what the doctor ordered Steve!


----------



## Xose

SteveHall said:


> Which proves my point - the world loves a tryer and Dunn was definitely that! Bradford was proud of him and I could have had a sports centre named after me if I'd been prepared to be battered senseless in the ring!
> 
> 
> XTreme's point (seriously) is well made. You will never be harmed by practising your Spanish. Sadly, many will die on Spanish roads this weekend, others will die through natural causes but NOBODY will be hurt by getting the negative imperative wrong. Mmmm, is it ¡No hables con José! or ¡No hablas con José! ?
> Me da igual ..... well actually it's ¡No hables! .....but you get my point!


Actually Steve, they're both right. Depends what you're trying to say... and how it's said.


----------



## Xose

jojo said:


> We're not all like that, I cant remember ever cutting anyones bollox off eventho I know several people who deserve it and could do with losing em!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Considering Spain's current favourite "todo cuesta un huevo" - I'm surprised any of us have any left


----------



## jojo

Xose said:


> Considering Spain's current favourite "todo cuesta un huevo" - I'm surprised any of us have any left


I dont wanna know what "todo cuesta un huevo" is.......do I!!!!!!????????

Jo xx


----------



## SteveHall

¡No lo creo! 

OK, I do as you are a Spanish native-speaker but pls explain how it could be ¡No hablas! in the imperative. 

PM if you prefer (in Spanish or English)


----------



## XTreme

jojo said:


> We're not all like that, I cant remember ever cutting anyones bollox off eventho I know several people who deserve it and could do with losing em!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Do you have any experience of this "battered senseless in the ring" scenario that Steve seems to know so much about Jo?


----------



## SteveHall

Guess so, she's married. Personally I'd prefer 10 x 3 minute rounds with a Heavyweight Champion than a trip down the aisle but each to their own.


----------



## jojo

XTreme said:


> Do you have any experience of this "battered senseless in the ring" scenario that Steve seems to know so much about Jo?


I can think of a very naughty answer to that, but being mod now......!!!!!

But as with most men, I´m sure Steve would benefit!!!!!!!!!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## Xose

SteveHall said:


> ¡No lo creo!
> 
> OK, I do as you are a Spanish native-speaker but pls explain how it could be ¡No hablas! in the imperative.
> 
> PM if you prefer (in Spanish or English)


¿Que?, Ah no naughthing, I am from Barcelona. 

Sorry Steve. Missed the "Imperative" bit in your post and read the "Negative" only.

Must try harder!


----------



## jojo

Xose said:


> ¿Que?, Ah no naughthing, I am from Barcelona.
> 
> Sorry Steve. Missed the "Imperative" bit in your post and read the "Negative" only.
> 
> Must try harder!


oh, well thats as clear as mud to the rest of us LOL

Jo xx


----------



## SteveHall

NP Xosé, you had me worried!! 

¡No contestes antes ......! LOL


----------



## Xose

jojo said:


> I dont wanna know what "todo cuesta un huevo" is.......do I!!!!!!????????
> 
> Jo xx


Well, "cuesta", as you know, means Cost. "Un Huevo" is One Egg. It's not the chicken egg it refers to so I'll let you work that out.

The intersting thing is that Men and Women use the phrase all the time. Wonder who's egg they're refering to when women use it


----------



## jojo

Xose said:


> Well, "cuesta", as you know, means Cost. "Un Huevo" is One Egg. It's not the chicken egg it refers to so I'll let you work that out.
> 
> The intersting thing is that Men and Women use the phrase all the time. Wonder who's egg they're refering to when women use it


Oh :lol:

Jo xxx


----------



## SteveHall

The imperative is the form of the verb used to give instruction. In English it is easy to learn; Go, stop, speak with Paul etc 

In Spanish (no surpise) there are lots of forms (many irregular with everyday verbs!) and they all change depending whether you are saying "speak" or "do not speak" 

So: 

hablar - to speak 

¡Habla! (tú) BUT ¡No hables! 
¡Hable! (usted) ¡No hable! 
¡Hablemos! (nosotros) ¡No hablemos!
¡Hablad! (vosotros) ¡No habléis!
¡Hablen! (ustedes) ¡No hablen!

Also the Spanish often use the infinitive so you will often see "entrar", borrar", "saltar" etc 
on web-sites etc

DO NOT worry about them


----------



## jojo

SteveHall said:


> The imperative is the form of the verb used to give instruction. In English it is easy to learn; Go, stop, speak with Paul etc
> 
> In Spanish (no surpise) there are lots of forms (many irregular with everyday verbs!) and they all change depending whether you are saying "speak" or "do not speak"
> 
> So:
> 
> hablar - to speak
> 
> ¡Habla! (tú) BUT ¡No hables!
> ¡Hable! (usted) ¡No hable!
> ¡Hablemos! (nosotros) ¡No hablemos!
> ¡Hablad! (vosotros) ¡No habléis!
> ¡Hablen! (ustedes) ¡No hablen!
> 
> Also the Spanish often use the infinitive so you will often see "entrar", borrar", "saltar" etc
> on web-sites etc
> 
> DO NOT worry about them


:wacko::wacko::wacko::wacko::target::target:

Jo xx


----------



## Caz.I

jojo said:


> I dont wanna know what "todo cuesta un huevo" is.......do I!!!!!!????????
> 
> Jo xx


Funnily enough, I only found out what these kind of "eggs" were today too -when I took my son for his annual check up at the doctor and she had to check to see how many were in the "box"!


----------



## jojo

Caz.I said:


> Funnily enough, I only found out what these kind of "eggs" were today too -when I took my son for his annual check up at the doctor and she had to check to see how many were in the "box"!


:redface::rofl::rofl::rofl:

jo xxx


----------



## Antalucia

Stravinsky said:


> Well i guess if you have a bar where only Brits go in, its not really a problem. Personally I dont go in such bars that much, but every one to their own.


It is unfortunate but a lot of people who move to Spain think like that. The reality is that you should be able to do more than speak to Brits - heaven forbid a Spanish customer might be thirsty. Beyond this just to be able to get by you should speak Spanish whether to speak with a doctor, the electricity company or even at work if a supplier calls wanting to know when he should come on in to repair the beer pump which broke last night. 

I could understand the lack of effort if Spanish was a hard language - try Russian or Arabic etc. and you will realise day to day Spanish is a breeze. I live in an area on the Southern coast that is still very Spanish - not full of foreign owned businesses but still people try to get by using Hola, Gracias and sign language - I was like that at first but now I can speak the language I enjoy life here much more and feel more comfortable and at ease.

It is worth the effort to learn.


----------



## jojo

Antalucia said:


> It is unfortunate but a lot of people who move to Spain think like that. The reality is that you should be able to do more than speak to Brits - heaven forbid a Spanish customer might be thirsty. Beyond this just to be able to get by you should speak Spanish whether to speak with a doctor, the electricity company or even at work if a supplier calls wanting to know when he should come on in to repair the beer pump which broke last night.
> 
> I could understand the lack of effort if Spanish was a hard language - try Russian or Arabic etc. and you will realise day to day Spanish is a breeze. I live in an area on the Southern coast that is still very Spanish - not full of foreign owned businesses but still people try to get by using Hola, Gracias and sign language - I was like that at first but now I can speak the language I enjoy life here much more and feel more comfortable and at ease.
> 
> It is worth the effort to learn.


I'm trying to learn and its a slow process. I think some retired folk who come out and live in primarily expat areas dont need to learn anymore than just enough to get by... its nice if they can and if they try a bit, but its not essential. However if you wanna work and become part of the spanish community then its a must. Me?? well as I say I'm doing my best and try at every opportunity, but its an unbearably slow process

Jo xxx


----------



## XTreme

The majority of Brits are beaten before they start......cos they have the wrong mentality.

They would be better to approach it as a fun learning experience.....another string to their bow etc....but they don't. They see it as an insurmountable obstacle.

And when you add the "too lazy to get off their asses because Jeremy Kyle is on TV" factor, then essentially there's no hope of any progression.

As far as I'm aware, Brits seem to be the only nationality who get nowhere. Look at the Dutch as an example.....they could spend a weekend in Portugal and be fluent at the end of it. Masters of languages!

All the resource material for learning Spanish is on the net.....and all the practical experience you could ever want is outside your front door! 

Without Spanish, or a reasonable grasp of it, you'll always be outside looking in. And the only option available to restore your position within the mainstream of society will be via the Easyjet departure lounge.


----------



## Stravinsky

XTreme said:


> The majority of Brits are beaten before they start......cos they have the wrong mentality.
> 
> They would be better to approach it as a fun learning experience.....another string to their bow etc....but they don't. They see it as an insurmountable obstacle.
> 
> And when you add the "too lazy to get off their asses because Jeremy Kyle is on TV" factor, then essentially there's no hope of any progression.
> 
> As far as I'm aware, Brits seem to be the only nationality who get nowhere. Look at the Dutch as an example.....they could spend a weekend in Portugal and be fluent at the end of it. Masters of languages!
> 
> All the resource material for learning Spanish is on the net.....and all the practical experience you could ever want is outside your front door!
> 
> Without Spanish, or a reasonable grasp of it, you'll always be outside looking in. And the only option available to restore your position within the mainstream of society will be via the Easyjet departure lounge.


Well I know what you mean but its not only the Brits, contrary to what you say. I ended up not so long back having to help a German family out who were in a shop trying to buy a gas fire and were quickly getting nowhere

From what I see, there are a lot of non Brit ex pats that dont speak Spanish, well around here anyway. They stick to their own groups .... the Germans up here even have their own drinking club somewhere up here apparantly


----------



## Chica

I suppose one of the reasons for us not attempting another language is that generally (I may be wrong here ) we are not conditioned to learn other languages. Having only average intelligence it was not an option for me except in one juniour class where we were taught very basic french which I loved and then nothing in the next form. The higher streams did have the opportunity to learn other languages tho'. I think that some people have a panchant (s'cuse spelling) for this and I am sure, intelligent or not, I would have been one of those, given the chance. But of course, like everything else, it is application whether gifted or not.


----------



## Stravinsky

Chica said:


> I suppose one of the reasons for us not attempting another language is that generally (I may be wrong here ) we are not conditioned to learn other languages. Having only average intelligence it was not an option for me except in one juniour class where we were taught very basic french which I loved and then nothing in the next form. The higher streams did have the opportunity to learn other languages tho'. I think that some people have a panchant (s'cuse spelling) for this and I am sure, intelligent or not, I would have been one of those, given the chance. But of course, like everything else, it is application whether gifted or not.


We tend to forget

When we were at school there were pupils that excelled, pupils that were average, and those that were .... well ..... lacking in certain areas.

It may be easy for some to learn a language, but for others its not. I dont think its fair to call it lazyness. Yes, in some cases, but there are an awful lot of people trying to learn the language and struggling with it. I know ..... I'm one of them!


----------



## Chica

I suppose where I'm coming from is that all the people I have met from a Scandi country speak very good english and other languages. Apparently, it's high on the curriculum. Maybe Twain can say something about this. My danish friend speaks 4. Spanish because he has lived here for years and others he learnt in school. Had languages been a higher priority in school would we have the problem that a lot of us have in learning spanish?


----------



## SunnySpain

Stravinsky said:


> We tend to forget
> 
> When we were at school there were pupils that excelled, pupils that were average, and those that were .... well ..... lacking in certain areas.
> 
> Yes that true of course.
> 
> It may be easy for some to learn a language, but for others its not. I dont think its fair to call it lazyness.
> 
> I agree.
> 
> Yes, in some cases, but there are an awful lot of people trying to learn the language and struggling with it. I know ..... I'm one of them![/QUOTE
> 
> True, but I actually believe that people can learn the language if they are more "determined" and put the time in to do it, usually with the help of proper classes


----------



## SteveHall

The Scandis and the Dutch/Belgians speak English at a higher level and from a younger age. I did not speak my first word of French until I was 11 and then I guess I had 2 hours per week. I have Scandi friends who at 11 are totally bilingual. It's hardly surprising as they are surrounded 24/7 by English/US TV, music, software etc etc. I could watch English language TV 24/7 there and it would NOT be dubbed .... and often not even sub-titled. Their parents speak it to a high level and all their family and friends have friends throughout the world who speak English ....even if these friends are Polish, Palestinian or Pakistani. 

Learning a language is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration ..... but, of course, it helps if you enjoy it. I do. On the other hand I could not change a plug, an oil filter or an ostomy bag. I could not sew a stitch, knit a row (?) or bake a cake. I'd have NO idea how to catch a fish or shoot a wild boar. Different strokes for different folks. We all have different skills fortunately.


----------



## SunnySpain

SteveHall said:


> The Scandis and the Dutch/Belgians speak English at a higher level and from a younger age. I did not speak my first word of French until I was 11 and then I guess I had 2 hours per week. I have Scandi friends who at 11 are totally bilingual. It's hardly surprising as they are surrounded 24/7 by English/US TV, music, software etc etc. I could watch English language TV 24/7 there and it would NOT be dubbed .... and often not even sub-titled. Their parents speak it to a high level and all their family and friends have friends throughout the world who speak English ....even if these friends are Polish, Palestinian or Pakistani.
> 
> Well yes clearly if nearly every other nation in the world shoves English down the throats of their people, they will learn it. Thats why its often said that the bst way to learn a language is to speak that language 100% of the time until you are fluent, thats what the students do and it works for them - lol
> 
> 
> Learning a language is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration ..... but, of course, it helps if you enjoy it. I do.
> 
> Yes of course, if you have motivation from enjoying what you are learning then you will learn it quicker
> 
> On the other hand I could not change a plug, an oil filter or an ostomy bag. I could not sew a stitch, knit a row (?) or bake a cake. I'd have NO idea how to catch a fish or shoot a wild boar.


True, but are you motivated to do any of these things ? 
I imagine the answer is no, hence you don't bother to learn how to do them

Motivation mixed with determination brings about learning, unless you are forced to do so e.g. Spanish learning English to reap the fruits from tourism

Dave


----------



## SteveHall

Very true.

Learning languages is a hobby and someting I enjoy so I guess I apply myself with as much passion as a friend of mine who will get up at 4am to go (some sort of!!) fishing. I am sure I could learn to put a hook onto a line but it has just never interested me whereas football I can watch at any level and enjoy. 

What frustrates me is when I hear "I am too old to try". Tell that to a 94 year-old who got a university degree yesterday or all those who study at the U3A. Proud of them all,


----------



## SunnySpain

SteveHall said:


> What frustrates me is when I hear "I am too old to try". Tell that to a 94 year-old who got a university degree yesterday or all those who study at the U3A. Proud of them all,



I agree, its never too late to teach an old dog new tricks.

Its all about having motivation and sticking with it
All this too old, not intelligent enough larky, is a load of b*ll


----------



## frannrod

The prime reason why Brits do not learn foreign languages is because, frankly, we don't have to. Most kids here don't attempt languages until the age of 11 and if my kids are anything to go by, it was very easy to give it up when it came to choosing GCSE options. 

Everyone else speaks English (or, more properly American) because the world is shrinking and if they want to progress in business, they have to. Just a few years ago I hosted a couple of French law students and they insisted on speaking English because they really needed the practice. I hardly said a word of French all week even though my French is pretty good and I would have enjoyed it.

In the 60s we all knew the Dutch spoke perfect English from a young age - because who else spoke Dutch? But it was quite common then to go on holiday to anywhere else in Europe and find no English spoken. Now - no. I recall clearly going on holidays to France, Italy, Portugal, even Yugoslavia (as it was then) and learning some basics to get by. Who needs to do that now? It's just pointless (although I would still do it for fun). Anyone remember when the Eurovision entries were all in the local language, and then gradually they all turned to English? Even in the music business they know if they want any prospect of commercial success their songs have to be in English.

I've been learning Spanish for two years now and the biggest obstacle to my practising on my trips to Spain is that everyone else wants to practice their English on me! 

I am determined to keep up the Spanish and to speak it at every opportunity when (hopefully) we get there for good next year. But I don't think the Brits should continue to knock themselves for their "inability" to speak foreign languages. It's a general trend, and in time (although probably not in our lifetime) there will only be one language worldwide, and that will be "American". It's sad, but there you are. (IMO !!)


----------



## Linlin46

Chica said:


> I totally agree with you! I think MAINLY it's only people who need to work really have a go at the language. I could speak a little before I came out but learnt very quickly working in the bars .



I like he Spanish language and am so glad i learned Spanish in Tenrife I would love to go back there to live I miss the culture and music. 
I am 63 and need the sun and sea for my health. But i cannot see how I will be able to obtain my wish.

Viya con Dios


----------



## XTreme

Stravinsky said:


> and those that were .... well ..... lacking in certain areas.


That's you that is!


----------



## SunnySpain

frannrod said:


> I am determined to keep up the Spanish and to speak it at every opportunity when (hopefully) we get there for good next year. But I don't think the Brits should continue to knock themselves for their "inability" to speak foreign languages.
> 
> The point that some of us are making here, is that many expats who need work when they get here ALSO need Spanish
> 
> As Steve points out for many jobs its a pre-requisite
> 
> 
> It's a general trend, and in time (although probably not in our lifetime) there will only be one language worldwide, and that will be "American". It's sad, but there you are. (IMO !!)


Not sure the Chinese would agree, but each t their own :lol:


----------



## Chica

What a shame Esperanto never caught on!!! I have asked the question here on the lounge forum (I think it was) and nobody claims to speaking it. Someone has put a lot of work and effort into developing a universal language and it was never taught in schools. 

Que lastima!!!


----------



## Antalucia

jojo said:


> I'm trying to learn and its a slow process. I think some retired folk who come out and live in primarily expat areas dont need to learn anymore than just enough to get by... its nice if they can and if they try a bit, but its not essential. However if you wanna work and become part of the spanish community then its a must. Me?? well as I say I'm doing my best and try at every opportunity, but its an unbearably slow process
> 
> Jo xxx



Hi, 
It is great that you are trying, I in no way want to appear to criticise anyone who is trying - I think the main thing is to try - it will all fall into place eventually so don't become discouraged. What is sad is when I meet people in the street who have been here longer than I have and who are on the way to set up an appointment in the small Spanish medical centre here where no english is spoken (at least by the receptionist) and they ask me if I "know what an appointment is in Spanish!" - What I used to do is get out a phrase book or dictionary before I left home and checked.

The sad thing is that not many recognise that once you have accomplished the basics life here is so much less stressful and it feels more like a home and the quality of life improves. I have known people move here and last only months before returning home and I think language played a large part of the failure to settle. - Can the place where you live feel like "home" if you can't speak the language (at least at a day to day level)? - to be honest when I talk to my accountant I can still get out of my depth in just a few minutes - so those days when I have to speak with her I always get stressed before


----------



## owdoggy

I went to get me bike ITV'd today and the lasses in reception had no english. As it happens we ended up having a bit of a laugh, they teaching me a bit of Spanish and me reciprocating with a bit of english ....... well, ok then, geordie! BUT! I felt so embarrassed that I couldn't have a bit of a daft chinwag with them it just made me even more determined to learn Spanish. If that makes me a typical ex-pat or not I have no idea but we can only go on our experiences eh!



Doggy


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## Pesky Wesky

It's probably all been said before because this thread's been going on for ages, but I can't resist any more and have to put my two cents in!
I am an English (English as a foreign languaguage) teacher and from my experience I can say...
Learning a language is an on going experience - you will never stop learning, even if you are bi lingual. If you think about it, you never stop learning English. We don't understand everything we come across in our language, and it's not going to happen with a foreign language. Don't expect to learn Spanish overnight, over a couple of month or over a couple of years
Different things work for different people. Somebody said something about getting together with friends once a week to learn a few pieces of vocabulary. Of course you're never going to learn a language like that, but you're going to learn something and if that's what works for you, well good!
Related to the above point - When I came to Spain it wasn't the "thing" to translate in class so with beginners you would spend ages trying to get across a concept or word. Dictation was also frowned upon. Now I "go with the flow" more. If it's too time consuming to explain I'll translate. My students LOVE (short) dictations. What I'm saying is 
- there are fashions in everything and we need to pick and choose what works, what makes sense and what is just a fad
- Everybody's different and everybody will learn at a different rate and in a different way
Last thing because if I don't stop this post will go on for ever, you have got to be consistent. You've got to keep at it. You've got to constantly go over what you've already done to make it stick. It's better to do 10 mins a day than 2 hours once a week when you're not busy.


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## Tallulah

Great advice from someone who is actually a teacher of a language. 

Anything you can do to start training your ear to another language is good - turn on the telly in Spanish/listen to the radio. Start picking up magazines which reflect your interests. Anything. It's always great to cram as much as you can into classes before you come to Spain, but there is nothing like living here to really absorb it. Forget about sounding silly in front of your neighbours - just try out some phrases and LISTEN to how they reply to you. You'll start understanding the structure of conversational Spanish. Don't be afraid to make mistakes or the perfect verb conjugation - there are always ways around it. Just please don't hide in a little English bubble - your quality of life will improve no end if you just step outside of your little box and give it a go.


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## Pesky Wesky

*learning the language*



Tallulah said:


> Forget about sounding silly in front of your neighbours - just try out some phrases and LISTEN to how they reply to you. You'll start understanding the structure of conversational Spanish. Don't be afraid to make mistakes or the perfect verb conjugation - there are always ways around it. .


Absolutely! If you knew how many Spaniards speak quite decent English, but are just too embarrassed to use it, in Madrid any way. Around the costas they might be more or less forced into saying something in English.
Most Spaniards are more than happy to hear you make an effort to say something intheir language because so many of us don't.
I also agree about making mistakes. What do you prefer. That someone says to you "You want any beer'" Or that they say nothing because they don't know how to say "Do you want some beer?":lol:


----------



## Tallulah

Pesky Wesky said:


> Absolutely! If you knew how many Spaniards speak quite decent English, but are just too embarrassed to use it, in Madrid any way. Around the costas they might be more or less forced into saying something in English.
> Most Spaniards are more than happy to hear you make an effort to say something intheir language because so many of us don't.
> I also agree about making mistakes. What do you prefer. That someone says to you "You want any beer'" Or that they say nothing because they don't know how to say "Do you want some beer?":lol:


Absolutamente, innit


----------



## SteveHall

Great advice PeskyWesky - been with two Romanians this evening. They've only been here 6 months but are already very comfortable. I KNOW Romanian is a Romance language but I think that their determination to make a new life for themselves is a great incentive and has helped them more than a vague handle on reflexive verbs. The INE now shows 800,000 Romanians officially here in Spain - more than Moroccans nowadays. Small world. 

I was testing myself on a football page of Marca there were 3 words I did not know - on the cookery page of our local rag there were a couple of dozen cookery terms, obscure herbs or fish that I was not sure about but I did not bother myself. Living on a staple diet of cup-a-soup and pizza 4 cheeses I am not too concerned with the word for some cut of a deer's shoulder or some herb from the Brazilian rain forest. Do what you enjoy! Read what you enjoy and watch what you enjoy! 

As long as I can say "Sí" to Ana or Natasha next time they call, all my efforts sitting in the bath learning the irregular imperfect subjunctives will have been to some avail.


----------



## XTreme

I've spoken more Spanish today than English! 

The whole spectrum from professionals such as Pharmacists and Vets, to shop assistants, gypsies, and even goat herders and shepherds. All of whom speaking Andaluz.....with each social group varying the letters they want to leave out.

I blundered along with my bizarre hybrid accent of Valleys Welsh and Colombian drug dealer.

Nothing breaks the ice quicker than "Donde esta my cowing giro butt?"....with the possible exception of "Whose coat es esa chaqueta mush?"


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## Pesky Wesky

Ana "Biologist" Obregon???


----------



## XTreme

SteveHall said:


> I was testing myself on a football page of Marca there were 3 words I did not know - on the cookery page of our local rag there were a couple of dozen cookery terms, obscure herbs or fish that I was not sure about but I did not bother myself.


And on the "How to pull a bird page" you didn't know _any_ of the words.....even though it was in English!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

XTreme said:


> I've spoken more Spanish today than English!
> 
> The whole spectrum from professionals such as Pharmacists and Vets, to shop assistants, gypsies, and even goat herders and shepherds. All of whom speaking Andaluz.....with each social group varying the letters they want to leave out.
> 
> I blundered along with my bizarre hybrid accent of Valleys Welsh and Colombian drug dealer.
> 
> Nothing breaks the ice quicker than "Donde esta my cowing giro butt?"....with the possible exception of "Whose coat es esa chaqueta mush?"


Interesting mix of accents you have , but as you imply, nothing compared with the Andaluz accent!!


----------



## Tallulah

XTreme said:


> I've spoken more Spanish today than English!
> 
> The whole spectrum from professionals such as Pharmacists and Vets, to shop assistants, gypsies, and even goat herders and shepherds. All of whom speaking Andaluz.....with each social group varying the letters they want to leave out.
> 
> I blundered along with my bizarre hybrid accent of Valleys Welsh and Colombian drug dealer.
> 
> Nothing breaks the ice quicker than "Donde esta my cowing giro butt?"....with the possible exception of "Whose coat es esa chaqueta mush?"


Oh I would so love to hear your accent, XT!!:eyebrows:


----------



## SteveHall

Pesky Wesky said:


> Ana "Biologist" Obregon???


Absolutely ---the lust of my life. Her and Natasha "Dr Mateo" Verbeke


----------



## Pesky Wesky

SteveHall said:


> Absolutely ---the lust of my life. Her and Natasha "Dr Mateo" Verbeke


I can't comment on Natasha; I don't know who she is, but Ana probably doesn't require conversation skills!!


----------



## SteveHall

You don't know Natasha? As you can imagine I only watch her lips to perfect my Argentinian-Spanish accent. 

Have you ever heard Ana speak English??? Mmmm, well let's just say she is not as good as she thinks she is! For that reason I am off to revise the irregular imperatives yet again!


----------



## XTreme

Tallulah said:


> Oh I would so love to hear your accent, XT!!:eyebrows:


The Spanish have told me that I don't sound English when speaking Spanish.....thank god for that.....I couldn't live with that stigma!
I've been told my accent is some sort of bizarre hybrid that they can't place.....though I have been asked if I'm French or Italian on occasions.

So the melodic nature of my very strong Welsh accent must carry across.....plus there are certain sounds in the Spanish language which are not natural to the English. But they are to the Welsh. 

For example, think about road signs with long Welsh place names that you've seen in the past.....and how difficult it was to pronounce them without having a mouthful of saliva. If it's any consolation to you the Spanish can't pronounce Welsh names either.....like other non-Welsh they are incapable of doing the correct "LL" sounds as in Llanelli.

So many of the Spanish pronunciations and intonations are very easy for us....which did get me in a lot of trouble in the early days when people would hear my pronunciation and presume I knew a lot more than I did. I think I'm yet to hear another Brit in this area get "Gitano" or "Angel" in the authentic way.

If I see a new word and I'm not sure of it's correct pronunciation, I get my Spanish pharmacist mate to say it.....then I've got it forever. 
So the Welsh connection does help in terms of pronunciation, but in terms of actually learning words, grammar etc.....I'm in the same boat as the rest of you.


----------



## Tallulah

XTreme said:


> The Spanish have told me that I don't sound English when speaking Spanish.....thank god for that.....I couldn't live with that stigma!
> I've been told my accent is some sort of bizarre hybrid that they can't place.....though I have been asked if I'm French or Italian on occasions.
> 
> So the melodic nature of my very strong Welsh accent must carry across.....plus there are certain sounds in the Spanish language which are not natural to the English. But they are to the Welsh.
> 
> For example, think about road signs with long Welsh place names that you've seen in the past.....and how difficult it was to pronounce them without having a mouthful of saliva. If it's any consolation to you the Spanish can't pronounce Welsh names either.....like other non-Welsh they are incapable of doing the correct "LL" sounds as in Llanelli.
> 
> So many of the Spanish pronunciations and intonations are very easy for us....which did get me in a lot of trouble in the early days when people would hear my pronunciation and presume I knew a lot more than I did. I think I'm yet to hear another Brit in this area get "Gitano" or "Angel" in the authentic way.
> 
> If I see a new word and I'm not sure of it's correct pronunciation, I get my Spanish pharmacist mate to say it.....then I've got it forever.
> So the Welsh connection does help in terms of pronunciation, but in terms of actually learning words, grammar etc.....I'm in the same boat as the rest of you.


mmm...melted chocolate springs to mind, when talking of Welsh accents!! Lovely I find a couple of glasses of vino and my accent and fluency improves immensely!! My kids sound totally Spanish when they speak Gallego/Castellano, and totally English when they speak English. I think it maybe an age thing, although a cousin of mine said I sound like a Gallega now when I speak! (Mind you, we were taste testing at his bar at the time, so the vocal chords were well lubricated!). I know I'm never going to sound like a native, but I think it's really important to attempt to pronounce properly - like not sounding "Hoo-arn, donday estar lah panadayree-ah". Gives it away everytime!!

Tallulah.xx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Tallulah said:


> mmm...melted chocolate springs to mind, when talking of Welsh accents!! Lovely I find a couple of glasses of vino and my accent and fluency improves immensely!! My kids sound totally Spanish when they speak Gallego/Castellano, and totally English when they speak English. I think it maybe an age thing, although a cousin of mine said I sound like a Gallega now when I speak! (Mind you, we were taste testing at his bar at the time, so the vocal chords were well lubricated!). I know I'm never going to sound like a native, but I think it's really important to attempt to pronounce properly - like not sounding "Hoo-arn, donday estar lah panadayree-ah". Gives it away everytime!!
> 
> Tallulah.xx


I think we're getting off the subject somewhat, but just a quick anecdote. I was waiting for my husband outside a shop in Madrid and somebody asked me if I knew where so and so was. I said "No," and was just about to add, "pero me parece que ..." and the guy said (in Spanish) Oh you're foreign, of course you won't know!!
When my husband came out of the shop he found me practically in tears. I had been struck off as a foreigner on the basis of a mere"No!" My English accent was detectable at 100 paces. I say "was" because of course my Spanish has improved dramatically!! Ha Ha


----------



## SunnySpain

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think we're getting off the subject somewhat, but just a quick anecdote. I was waiting for my husband outside a shop in Madrid and somebody asked me if I knew where so and so was. I said "No," and was just about to add, "pero me parece que ..." and the guy said (in Spanish) Oh you're foreign, of course you won't know!!
> When my husband came out of the shop he found me practically in tears. I had been struck off as a foreigner on the basis of a mere"No!" My English accent was detectable at 100 paces. I say "was" because of course my Spanish has improved dramatically!! Ha Ha



Interesting that.
A friend of ours from Venezuela (obviously Spanish speaking) went to Madrid for a week last year. His idea was to see if he liked it enough to live here. 

His experience, in his words, the people are horrible, they treated me like **** just because I was from Venezuela and therefore speak with a different accent.
He went to say that he has never come across such horrid people and that he will not be returning to Spain, not even for a holiday.

Dave - keeping it real.


----------



## SteveHall

He should have tried France ..... they REALLY know how to be rude to foreigners. I have NEVER understood how people put up with such rudeness and go back year after year. I mean with Telefónica you have no choice but with the world at your fingertips.....


----------



## SunnySpain

SteveHall said:


> He should have tried France ..... they REALLY know how to be rude to foreigners. I have NEVER understood how people put up with such rudeness and go back year after year. I mean with Telefónica you have no choice but with the world at your fingertips.....


True, I have had similar experiences in France.

Our friend did manage 2 days in Barcelona at the end of his stay and he did enjoy that part of his time here and wish he done it the other way round, which si what we advised him to do before he made his booking.

Oh well, we live and learn.

Dave


----------



## Pesky Wesky

SunnySpain said:


> Interesting that.
> A friend of ours from Venezuela (obviously Spanish speaking) went to Madrid for a week last year. His idea was to see if he liked it enough to live here.
> 
> His experience, in his words, the people are horrible, they treated me like **** just because I was from Venezuela and therefore speak with a different accent.
> He went to say that he has never come across such horrid people and that he will not be returning to Spain, not even for a holiday.
> 
> Dave - keeping it real.


It may be true that he didn't get very good treatment because they heard his South American accent. Not all Madridleños like South Americans just like not all Brits accept Pakistanis, Indians, blacks, people with beards, people who wear red socks etc, etc. It's a shame they had such a negative experience, but to wipe Spain off the map is a bit dramatic.
PS I have 2 Venezuelans and a Peruvian in my company classes and they seem happy enough, which is not to say they never have a problem, but it's not part of living in Madrid I think


----------



## SteveHall

I don't think it's just madrileños who are anti latinos! An object of my lust is Argentinian/Chilean and I have been quite astounded at the "anti" treatment.


----------



## SunnySpain

SteveHall said:


> I don't think it's just madrileños who are anti latinos! An object of my lust is Argentinian/Chilean and I have been quite astounded at the "anti" treatment.



We concur the above 100%

Its funny you know, we have met more friendly South Americans than we have Spanish and that is especially true of our experiences in Asturias.

One of "our" pet hates in Spain, is the high level of Racism and Zenophobic attitudes towards others...

Dave


----------



## SteveHall

My experience (painful) of Telefónica is that almost all the more helpful (=less unhelpful) telephonists are latinas. 

The Xenophobia especially towards N.Africans is very disappointing even in the "educated" classes. 

Talking about latinos there is the Annual Euroal Exhbition at Torremolinos Congress Centre today and tomorrow promoting tourism to S.America. I'm looking forward to that. Anybody fancy meeting?


----------



## SunnySpain

SteveHall said:


> My experience (painful) of Telefónica is that almost all the more helpful (=less unhelpful) telephonists are latinas.



Problems we have had all because my OH is Latina - We were told the following: 

By several owner's, they don't rent their property to foreigners
But you are not Spanish, we don't have any teaching posts at present

Medical centres have told us that my OH and our baby daughter will need private healthcare cover in the near future and that the state can stop the service at any point and this despite the fact that my OH has citizenship and our baby was born in Spain

Fijate tu !

Dave


----------



## Antalucia

SunnySpain said:


> Problems we have had all because my OH is Latina - We were told the following:
> 
> By several owner's, they don't rent their property to foreigners
> But you are not Spanish, we don't have any teaching posts at present
> 
> Medical centres have told us that my OH and our baby daughter will need private healthcare cover in the near future and that the state can stop the service at any point and this despite the fact that my OH has citizenship and our baby was born in Spain
> 
> Fijate tu !
> 
> Dave


Fortunately where I live with my latin wife the people are not overtly judgemental but you can read people's faces some times and you know something is not quite right. But I know it can happen. I think this is because there are few latinos here where we live and they are not seen by the locals in the same way as where large pockets of poor latinos with their bad habits are developing in the larger cities. But going back to the topic of language.

In andalucia the Spanish speak terrible Spanish - in Colombia, Mexico and Argentina they speak much better Spanish. When my wife first came here I had to translate for her! (Andaluz to Spanish and sometimes back to Andaluz - as there are some differences in vocabulary as well). She was very disappointed, the people are not polite or friendly in the same way as in south america (I would stick my neck out and say better than the UK though - possibly that could be another thread!) and I think in the longterm we will end up living in south america - despite the kidnappings, drug lords, shootings and terrorism  (I need to perpetuate these images to stop south america becoming spoiled by too many gringos). 

Antonio


----------



## XTreme

SteveHall said:


> He should have tried France ..... they REALLY know how to be rude to foreigners.


Just the English Steve.....they're fine with us!


----------



## Tanager

SteveHall said:


> Catalan is NOT a mixture of Spanish and thread - although it is often described as such. It is very much a language in its own right and is very proud of its identity and its development from Vulgar Latin. (If anybody is interested in this whole matter Simon Harris book explains the story of the language's development. He drops in here occasionally as you know.)
> 
> Language is in a constant state of change as Jojo says and that is an excellent example she quotes. ("Gay" is another frequently used example) As a linguist I am scared but excited with what will happen to languages such as Danish and Dutch in the next 100 years as English (American) becomes more and more THE international language of trade. (Did you know that more people speak English in China now than do so in the USA? On the same track, the growth of Spanish in the USA is fast and furious)
> 
> In Denmark all courses in veterinary sciences at the Copenhagen University are now taught in ENGLISH and I wonder how long it will be before that continues to other courses. I have studied the evolution of the Swedish language from the Runic Stones, through Gustav Vasa's bible and into the popular culture of the 20th/21st centuries. At no stage has is it ever moved faster than the last 30/40 years.
> 
> The issue with English is very interesting indeed as it is indeed a very mixed language. Is it a Latin language? Is it a North European language from the Germanic sub-group? Is it ......? The reality is that it is a complete melange of languages from the Proto Indo-European language and will continue to develop and change. One of the most interesting aspects of the rise and rise of Social Networking and sms culture is the number of people now writing regularly in the English language. It is estimated that TEN times as many people in the UK now write regularly in English as five years ago. I see that as very positive. (I am less positive about txt speak!) Equally I am a member of Scandi forums where sometimes 50/60% of the posts are in English! Obviously many Scandis and Dutch are now on global forums writing comfortably in English.
> 
> Clearly, the Spanish are a long way behind the Scandis and the Dutch when it comes to learning English. There is no history of English being taught here and the level it was taught at up until just a few short years ago was truly appalling. I know Spanish teachers to this day who teach English here in Spain and who can hardly string a sentence together in English. I have gone through the next day's lesson with them and helped them with pronounciation, vocabulary and corrected major grammatical errors. Things ARE improving, there is a certain group of elder teens who think it is "chic" to speak English but we are at least two generations from the Spanish speaking English to the level of their N.European friends.



This is such a coincidence! I'm a linguist too but my main language is Danish, the second is Swedish.
When you mentioned the Runic Stones and Gustav Vasa's bible, all the memories came back from the university.
I lived for a while in Denmark too. I really like the country.

I suppose you speak Swedish too. I think it sounds much nicer than Danish (sorry Danes)
I remember when I went to school there, my Danish classmates just switched languages, they could easily do that. Their English was pretty good.
The elderly generation was afraid of that the Danish language will one day disappear. That would be a shame.


----------



## SteveHall

This is such a coincidence! I'm a linguist too but my main language is Danish, the second is Swedish.
When you mentioned the Runic Stones and Gustav Vasa's bible, all the memories came back from the university.
I lived for a while in Denmark too. I really like the country.

**Somebody has to!! Sorry, Denmark just does not do it for me. 

I suppose you speak Swedish too. I think it sounds much nicer than Danish (sorry Danes)

**Yes, I speak Swedish but can obviously read Danish with no problems at all. To be honest it's my least favourite language that I am comfortable in. As you know the Swedes claim that Danish is not a language but a throat-disease. The stød does sound like the speaker is going to implode at best and cover you in projectile vomit at worst. Apart from that it's OK LOL 

I remember when I went to school there, my Danish classmates just switched languages, they could easily do that. Their English was pretty good.
The elderly generation was afraid of that the Danish language will one day disappear. That would be a shame.

** But they are nowhere near as competent as the Swedes/Finns and definitely the Norwegians. I think it will remain as a minority interest language at worst - they do not help themselves by importing English/American words when they have a perfectly good Danish words. They have "dejlig" but drop "beautiful" in for fun! 

BIG game tomorrow - Sweden to win!


----------



## Tanager

**Somebody has to!! Sorry, Denmark just does not do it for me. 

That's mean, poor Danes. I know, there are no mountains, not even hills there but they have nice beaches. LOL

**Yes, I speak Swedish but can obviously read Danish with no problems at all. To be honest it's my least favourite language that I am comfortable in. As you know the Swedes claim that Danish is not a language but a throat-disease. The stød does sound like the speaker is going to implode at best and cover you in projectile vomit at worst. Apart from that it's OK LOL 

Oh, yeah. That lovely stød and the Rødgrød med fløde LOL I never would be able to pronounce it.

My favourite Danish word is "hygge". Nobody can translate it.
It's like here in Ireland the craic .


----------



## stew

*Is fluency in Spanish ever really possible*

Can I ask what sort of standard of Spanish people get to if they do work at it (perhaps taking evening classes) and practise with the locals, is it ever the case that they are truely fluent if they start learning in middle age?

PS
I'm dreaming about relocating somewhere with a somewhat summery climate all year round but not too hot, Valencia seems about as good as it gets, but from what I've read Valencian is also spoken there. Would this amount to needing to learn another language, or is it similar or not worth learning?


----------



## Seb*

stew said:


> Can I ask what sort of standard of Spanish people get to if they do work at it (perhaps taking evening classes) and practise with the locals, is it ever the case that they are truely fluent if they start learning in middle age?


This depends on the individual. You can get completely fluent of course - no matter what age. It just depends on how much you work on it. If you only use it while going shopping or in restaurants once a week you hardly will become fluent. If you have lots of friends and speak spanish (or any other language come to it) on a daily basis - there is nothing to stop you becoming fluent in any language you learn. Losing an accent is a different matter and usually takes years of daily use.

You know that you have succeeded as soon as you start thinking and/or dreaming in that language. And don't forget: language courses can't tell you everything - they teach you the basics to get you started and give you a general understanding of the language - from then on you will have to use it regularly and this way you will learn more of the words and expressions that make you fluent.

To Valenciano: well similar ... yes it is in a way - but not similar enough that you can understand everything - actually you will be able to get the odd word right and make sense of some (especially if you have knowledge of other languages like french as well) ... but not enough for every day use. If you want to communicate in valenciano you would have to learn it.


----------



## jojo

Yes it varies on so many things, determination, necessity, intellect, age..... I've been here two years and can get by. I understand more than I can speak. I used to have lessons twice a week, now I go to a conversational lesson once a week.

I'm not sure how fluent anyone can be if they start spanish in late adulthood when you consider that Spanish people start learning it when they're toddlers and it takes them that long to become as good as they are!! But I'm sure there are British around who are certainly competant inspite of starting at a later age

Jo xxx


----------



## Hombre

jojo said:


> Yes it varies on so many things, determination, necessity, intellect, age..... I've been here two years and can get by. I understand more than I can speak. I used to have lessons twice a week, now I go to a conversational lesson once a week.
> 
> I'm not sure how fluent anyone can be if they start spanish in late adulthood when you consider that Spanish people start learning it when they're toddlers and it takes them that long to become as good as they are!! But I'm sure there are British around who are certainly competant inspite of starting at a later age
> 
> Jo xxx


Living up here in Catalunya, the locals speak Catalan amomgst themselves but if you approach them in Castellano they oblige you . Catalan is an absolute must if you wish to work up here. Mrs H and I can converse quite well in Castellano. She tends to "hear" it better than me though. I have embarked on a course of Catalan...but purely for my own pleasure, not because of any need. I seem to be taking to it quite well...mostly, I think because of my knowledge of schoolboy French. Children around here mostly speak 4 languages. It is also interesting to note that almost anyone aged 16 years and under all speak English.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Seb* said:


> This depends on the individual. You can get completely fluent of course - no matter what age. It just depends on how much you work on it. If you only use it while going shopping or in restaurants once a week you hardly will become fluent. If you have lots of friends and speak spanish (or any other language come to it) on a daily basis - there is nothing to stop you becoming fluent in any language you learn. Losing an accent is a different matter and usually takes years of daily use.
> 
> You know that you have succeeded as soon as you start thinking and/or dreaming in that language. And don't forget: language courses can't tell you everything - they teach you the basics to get you started and give you a general understanding of the language - from then on you will have to use it regularly and this way you will learn more of the words and expressions that make you fluent.
> 
> To Valenciano: well similar ... yes it is in a way - but not similar enough that you can understand everything - actually you will be able to get the odd word right and make sense of some (especially if you have knowledge of other languages like french as well) ... but not enough for every day use. If you want to communicate in valenciano you would have to learn it.


I agree with a lot of what Seb has said.
If you're going to start learning before you move to Spain (which is the best idea) I think evening classes are a good idea to give you a start and a basic feel of the language, but don't expect miracles from a couple of evenings a week. If you can get an online course it would help you a lot too.
When you come over you'll have access to a lot more Spanish on the radio, telly etc but depending on what area you go to you might hear more English (or German) than Spanish around you on the street  and in bars. Keep up with classes, do something in Spanish everyday (shopping list, write an email, read an article from a magazine, phone the ayuntamiento...)
As we've said before on the forum, some people are just not good language learners, but if you're living in a different country I think it's important to get as good a level as possible. You owe it to yourself - and to your adopted country!!
As for those who go to Catalonia and Galicia and learn the local lingo too...!!
Hats off to them!!:yo:


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## jimenato

I find it difficult to understand how people can understand Spanish better than they can speak it (see jojo above). I can usually say what I want to say fairly well but have great difficulty understanding the stream of Spanish that comes back to me. The reason seems obvious to me - I only use words and grammar that I know but they use loads of stuff that I haven't yet come across so I have difficulty understanding it.

I am obviously wrong about this because many people can understand better than they can talk. I have lived in Spain for nine years and I can get by OK. I speak Spanish every day. My Spanish is no better than 4 (on a scale of 1 - 10). It should be better than that by now.

I know people who have lived in Spain for only a few months who can understand just about everything that is said to them and can converse freely.

It seems to me that there are two types of learners:

The first type understand Spanish and learn conversation very quickly. Their grammar is often appalling and they cannot even think of reading or writing it. Their Spanish usually only gets to a reasonable _quality_ standard although they do develop large vocabularies.

The second type take a lot longer to learn - and they particularly find hearing and understanding Spanish difficult. The Spanish they _do_ learn is generally of a higher _quality _than the first type although they have less _quantity_. The second type can read Spanish better than the first type. The second type (I am one of them) are continually waiting for a "breakthrough" which never comes.

Which type you fall into doesn't seem to depend on intelligence nor education.

Any thoughts?


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## jojo

jimenato said:


> I find it difficult to understand how people can understand Spanish better than they can speak it (see jojo above). I can usually say what I want to say fairly well but have great difficulty understanding the stream of Spanish that comes back to me. The reason seems obvious to me - I only use words and grammar that I know but they use loads of stuff that I haven't yet come across so I have difficulty understanding it.


 I can usually pick up most words and with those words get the jist of whats being said. I think my problem with speaking it is because of my memory. When I hear the words I understand, but when I have to speak I forget and then I try to get the grammar right, so by the time all that lot is buzzing around in my head, the moments gone!!! Whats really annoying is that afterwards I can think of exactly how to say what I wanted to!!!!! 

Jo xxx


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## jojo

I'm waiting for a micro chip that can be implanted into our brains that simply does it for us LOL!!!

Jo xxx


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## MaidenScotland

Jo,

I am looking to take Spanish lessons here in Cairo, lol as if I don't have enough trouble with Arabic.


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## jojo

MaidenScotland said:


> Jo,
> 
> I am looking to take Spanish lessons here in Cairo, lol as if I don't have enough trouble with Arabic.


Wow, you're brave!!!! 

Yet another language would be the end of me. I used to speak almost fluent french when I was younger and the other day I met a french woman who asked me if I spoke french and I said yes and went to say something in french and I couldnt!! I came out with some kind of mixture of french, spanish and english that didnt make sense at all!! She just looked at me like I was mad!!! I couldnt even explain to her in any language why I sounded a twit! 


I'm too old for all this 

Jo xxx

Jo xxx


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## MaidenScotland

LOL I know what you mean... I lived in France for a couple of years and my French was horrendous as I didn't do French at school.. however it is surprising what has stuck with me, there are many Arabic words that are French! and it was only knowing the French that let me work out what the Arabic was and would you believe we have Scottish slang in Arabic lol 
My friend who is Egyptian laughs at my Arabic.. she says and I quote " I wonder anyone understands you as you speak Saudi (which is pure), Egyptian, Moroccan and Lebanese Arabic all mixed up in the same sentence but hey I get along fine hehe


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## briotone

Am I missing something here??

I thought that Càtalan was the Spanish/French mix, not Castellano??

Happy to shut up if wrong!!


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