# Least competition in job market?!



## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

This is an INEM breakdown of unemployment as at Aug 2009

The area and industry breakdown gives a feel for where the majority of people where working and so one assumes are looking for work.

You'll need Excel to use this. If it doesn't work as a link, cut and paste the address to your google address bar.

http://www.croem.es/Web/CroemWebEstadisticas.nsf/ca9fbec891192b50c1256bd7004f727c/23c477ad4a4ac29a41256ea90044b8a4/$FILE/EVOLUCION%20DEL%20PARO%20PROVINCIAS%202009.xls

Happy reading.

Xose


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

What keeps haunting me is a chat I had with a Spanish local man a few weeks ago. He said that the Spanish arent as "unemployed" as the goverment make out or think they are. He said that tax evasion is the national sport and therefore the figures of unemployment arent at all accurate. He said, look around you, do you see poverty? do You see hardship? and then told me he was unemployed according to the goverment, altho he runs a successful business employing several also "unemployed" chaps!! And then theres this back money thing and alot of Spànish still dealing in pesatas??? Whats that all about and how does that affect the economy!????

I think the Spanish goverment is totally out of touch with whats going on. I've no doubt things are bad here, very, very bad. But alot of the problem is that the goverment cant seem to get the population to understand that they need to pay their taxes for the country to operate, or get accurate figures. Theres a serious lack of communication thats for sure

Jo xxx


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

jojo said:


> What keeps haunting me is a chat I had with a Spanish local man a few weeks ago. He said that the Spanish arent as "unemployed" as the goverment make out or think they are. He said that tax evasion is the national sport and therefore the figures of unemployment arent at all accurate. He said, look around you, do you see poverty? do You see hardship? and then told me he was unemployed according to the goverment, altho he runs a successful business employing several also "unemployed" chaps!! And then theres this back money thing and alot of Spànish still dealing in pesatas??? Whats that all about and how does that affect the economy!????
> 
> I think the Spanish goverment is totally out of touch with whats going on. I've no doubt things are bad here, very, very bad. But alot of the problem is that the goverment cant seem to get the population to understand that they need to pay their taxes for the country to operate, or get accurate figures. Theres a serious lack of communication thats for sure
> 
> Jo xxx


Indeed, there is a huge black economy in Spain. The internal mechanism doesn't help either.

In 2007 (nothing for 08 and 09 yet) 27% of unemployed where 50 to 65. Today, if you are 52 or more, you can apply for the >52 benefit which in effect, gives you an amount (a form of part pension) until you reach 65 at which point you get your full pension. I know some people who are on this and so long as they go to the interview or course they're sent on, everyone's happy. They get ****** all in terms of interviews arranged by Inem. They're more than happy with their €500ish per month and the rest in Black.

Yes, the reforms being screamed for from all over Spain and Europe are very urgently needed.

Xose


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Xose said:


> Indeed, there is a huge black economy in Spain. The internal mechanism doesn't help either.
> 
> In 2007 (nothing for 08 and 09 yet) 27% of unemployed where 50 to 65. Today, if you are 52 or more, you can apply for the >52 benefit which in effect, gives you an amount (a form of part pension) until you reach 65 at which point you get your full pension. I know some people who are on this and so long as they go to the interview or course they're sent on, everyone's happy. They get ****** all in terms of interviews arranged by Inem. They're more than happy with their €500ish per month and the rest in Black.
> 
> ...


The question is how??? It strikes me that a lot of Spanish actually dont see why they should pay taxes. For example, how many landlords are there here who even declare their rentals??? And thats not even the tip of the iceberg! 

There simply no control by the government or europe

Jo xxx


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

jojo said:


> The question is how??? It strikes me that a lot of Spanish actually dont see why they should pay taxes. For example, how many landlords are there here who even declare their rentals??? And thats not even the tip of the iceberg!
> 
> There simply no control by the government or europe
> 
> Jo xxx



Agree, they don't see why they should pay anything and then b!tch like you wouldn't believe because they're scraping by on the minimum non-contributory pension (or near as damn it on minimum Autonomos or whatever) at a later stage in life and get really upset because their neighbour is on anything up to several thousand a month because they've contributed at a good level under a proper convenio all their working lives. 

As for why? - well, it's a self assesment system. If you practice evasion you risk getting caught (more and more as IT starts to take off in the intelligence gathering process) but in the end, caught or not, you will get what you paid.... so, not a lot, fine, that's what you'll get.

Xose


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

But don't forget there is a massive black economy in the UK too and large-scale tax evasion. It's the same all over Europe, not just Spain. Anyone who can afford to pay an accountant can legitimately cut theit tax bill so many who can't just don't declare their income. The number of businesses that accept cash payments/no invoices to avoid VAT is enormous. Customers often looked askance at us when we refused to do such deals.
Nearly all of the unemployed in Spain are on temporary contracts and many of them will be immigrants. 
As for the peseta thing - pesetas aren't valid currency so are worthless. What you often see is euro prices with the peseta cost also displayed. The same happens in France and Germany - people, especially older people, still think in terms of francs or marks.
The fact that hasn't fully surfaced here yet is the huge amount of loans to construction companies held by banks against assets whose valuesw have tumbled. Not quite as bad as the sub-prime debacle but when the full effect is made clear it will be another blow to an already faltering economy.
Spain has structural problems which urgently need attention - wages have vastly outstripped productivity, for example -and unemployment whatever its 'real' level is just one of them.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Xose said:


> As for why? - well, it's a self assesment system. If you practice evasion you risk getting caught (more and more as IT starts to take off in the intelligence gathering process) but in the end, caught or not, you will get what you paid.... so, not a lot, fine, that's what you'll get.
> 
> Xose


Many other countries have self-assessment schemes, the U.S., Canada, many European countries. How many other than the U.K. have PAYE schemes?
And tax evasion in the UK takes place on a massive scale. It's mainly the little people who get caught, though.
Avoiding taxes is an international pastime, almost a respectable sport. It's a crime that isn't frowned on.
A bit like stealing and prostitution, really. Charge a tenner and you're a tart, charge £5000 and you're a 'hostess' or 'escort'.
Steal £50 and you're pathetic. Rob a train of a £million and you're a national celebrity.


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

Anyway, has anyone had a look at the stats?

Have you noticed that in Andalucia for example, there's over 400 thousand people after your job in the Hotel, but only 70 thousand after your job in the factory?

Obviously the need to speak spanish is a must in this scenario, but interesting isn't it?

Or - stats being what they are, are there a 2 million posts in the service sector and only 20 thousand in the industrial sector, in which case, competition is greater in the latter. Oh well.


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> Many other countries have self-assessment schemes, the U.S., Canada, many European countries. How many other than the U.K. have PAYE schemes?
> And tax evasion in the UK takes place on a massive scale. It's mainly the little people who get caught, though.
> Avoiding taxes is an international pastime, almost a respectable sport. It's a crime that isn't frowned on.
> A bit like stealing and prostitution, really. Charge a tenner and you're a tart, charge £5000 and you're a 'hostess' or 'escort'.
> Steal £50 and you're pathetic. Rob a train of a £million and you're a national celebrity.


Yes but the PAYE in the UK is quite limited. anyone on a half decent pay scale or with any perks has to do a self assesment in any case. Spain is kind of the same thing but in reverse. The "Retencion" system gives the government their cashflow same as PAYE does - and the balance sorted at year end. In fact, some people save up for their summer hols via that route by allowing larger retenciones to avoid unpleasent surprises later, specially single operator Autonomos who's pay is sorted by their Assesor under their instructions so far as % retencion over the minimum goes.

Xose


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Xose said:


> Yes but the PAYE in the UK is quite limited. anyone on a half decent pay scale or with any perks has to do a self assesment in any case. Spain is kind of the same thing but in reverse. The "Retencion" system gives the government their cashflow same as PAYE does - and the balance sorted at year end. In fact, some people save up for their summer hols via that route by allowing larger retenciones to avoid unpleasent surprises later, specially single operator Autonomos who's pay is sorted by their Assesor under their instructions so far as % retencion over the minimum goes.
> 
> Xose


Ah yes, I'd forgotten that..
Thanks for the stats, very illuminating. The situation in Andalucia reflects the economic structure, I suppose -i.e. most activity is tourist-based.
I'm still amazed that there has been no civil unrest as whatever the true percentage it is universally agreed that unemployment is the highest in Europe.
Maybe when the year's payment runs out? Or when it's not just temporadas and Moroccans facing the dole?


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

If anybody wants to be REALLY afraid read La Verdad today. In Murcia unemployment has increased by over 50% inside 12 months. Irrelevant of how you juggle figures, if you are juggling the same figures then a 50% increase is appaling. 

Civil unrest? I was driving through France this week and listening to a programme where hard-line trade unionists were begging their members to go on strike over a 3% wage increase. Many of their members were arguing for reality. They were just happy to be in work. 

In Norway unemployment is 2,9%. In last month's elections, unemployment was just not a major issue whereas immigration was. In Germany (elections this week) the National Socialists were campaigning on a compulsory repatriation ticket. Don't think we want to see that in Spain!


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

SteveHall said:


> If anybody wants to be REALLY afraid read La Verdad today. In Murcia unemployment has increased by over 50% inside 12 months. Irrelevant of how you juggle figures, if you are juggling the same figures then a 50% increase is appaling.
> 
> Civil unrest? I was driving through France this week and listening to a programme where hard-line trade unionists were begging their members to go on strike over a 3% wage increase. Many of their members were arguing for reality. They were just happy to be in work.
> 
> In Norway unemployment is 2,9%. In last month's elections, unemployment was just not a major issue whereas immigration was. In Germany (elections this week) the National Socialists were campaigning on a compulsory repatriation ticket. Don't think we want to see that in Spain!



Hi Steve,
I think most regions have sufferred that fate in the past 12 months. However, it's clear which provincial governments have the big challenges ahead regarding large numbers of people back to work.

PROVINCIA.....................Regional.....% of total 
ANDALUCÍA.....................803,137.....22.13%
CATALUÑA.......................519,129.....14.30%
COM. VALENCIANA..........449,778.....12.39%
MADRID...........................424,759.....11.70%
CANARIAS........................245,966.....6.78%
GALICIA...........................195,241.....5.38%
CASTILLA LA MANCHA......169,165.....4.66%
CASTILLA Y LEÓN.............159,843.....4.40%
PAÍS VASCO.....................120,318.....3.32%
MURCIA............................112,649.....3.10%
EXTREMADURA..................104,804.....2.89%
ARAGÓN............................80,730.......2.22%
ASTURIAS..........................68,433.......1.89%
ILLES BALEARS..................66,796.......1.84%
NAVARRA...........................37,391.......1.03%
CANTABRIA........................34,439.......0.95%
LA RIOJA............................19,205.......0.53%
CEUTA................................8,839........0.24%
MELILLA.............................8,458.........0.23%
TOTAL................................3,629,080..100.00%

Murcia's climb from around 70,000 to a little over 112,000 in the past 12 months is a headache - but not THE headache.

Xose


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Agreed - it's all very worrying isn't it?


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

We're all going to hell in a handbasket!

And what better way to mark this Iberian Armageddon than with a nice website?


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

I was just thinking that. Not sure who'd do the site. Any recommendations?


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## Biscombe (Sep 8, 2009)

I think if it was easier to be self employed here in Spain there would be less black money, therefore a better economy.


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

Biscombe said:


> I think if it was easier to be self employed here in Spain there would be less black money, therefore a better economy.


Easier than what, though? If you're referring to the UK, you've gotta be kidding! 

1). Schedule D is about the only thing that comes close to "autonomo" in Spain. That's been closed off for some years now to anyone who has what the Revenue calls a "master/slave" relationship. Therefore, any contractor working for a company for any period of time, in fact anyone contracted to a same source for any length of time has little option than Ltd unless you want to start messing with umbrella companies.

2). As many people have said on here, starting a company in England is very cheap - but as a limited company, even if your accountant is cheap, the books must be independantly audited. There's the registration at Companies House and then the real pain comes when you want to wind it up. Many people have come a cropper thinking that the and the Ltd company are one and the same. Not realising that the monies within the Ltd company have to be very carefully taken before the company is wound up. Once you cease trading, there's the issue of de-registration - none of which is quick, cheap or fun.

3). In Spain, you pop in and out of autonomo registration, same for Hacienda registration, as often as you like and the Gestoria fees are nothing in comparison to the accountants fees and processes for winding up and starting up Ltd companies.

OK, this covers the, shall we say, "proper" self employed/autonomo and the fact that a public service worker such as plumber, electrician, working for Joe Public can be like an autonomo under Schedule D.


Where I do agree 100% with you is for small operations. The autonomo process is a royal pain and totally unfeasible for anyone wishing to work from home for example, and earn a few hundred a month as spare cash. In theory, this cannot be done in Spain unless you are autonomo and so this pushes people to the black market. Spain does need to loosen its grip on the likes of people working from home, who main earn a couple or three thousand a year, but clearly are not in a position to register, do the Hacienda returns, etc and would happily stay legal if it was simply a case of declaring on the IRPF every year. :juggle:


Tallulah.x


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

All this talk of doom and gloom is all very well, but there really is little sign of it around here. But I guess the major expansion of Málaga Airport, the new motorway network servicing it and other associated businesses has brought a lot of work to the area. They employ from far and wide across Spain, so we then have the knock on effect of property rentals, bars keeping busy, shops etc. I know you'll all say its artificial/temporary employment, but if it keeps us going til the end of the recession..... whenever that may be
Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Do those figures reflect the number of people who have actually registered for unemployment benefit?
In the UK the figures for people seeking work are higher than the number actually registered as it does not include dependents, those not entitled to benefit etc. so the figure can be a couple of percentage points higher than the official one. Just wondering if it's the same here.
Those figures plus the breakdown Xose provided should be compulsory reading for people who are fed up with the bad weather, unemployment etc. in the UK and think it's comparatively easy to relocate.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> Do those figures reflect the number of people who have actually registered for unemployment benefit?
> In the UK the figures for people seeking work are higher than the number actually registered as it does not include dependents, those not entitled to benefit etc. so the figure can be a couple of percentage points higher than the official one. Just wondering if it's the same here.


That was the point of my post earlier. With all the tax evasion, the loopholes, black money... how can their figures be anywhere near accurate? Like I said, my Spanish friend runs a very successful business, employing several men and as far as I can see they're all technically unemployed!

Jo xxx


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

[starting a company in England is very cheap - but as a limited company, even if your accountant is cheap, the books must be independantly audited.]

For financial years starting on or after 6 April 2008, to qualify for total audit exemption a company must: 
qualify as small
have a turnover of not more than £6.5 million; and
have a balance sheet total of not more than £3.26 million. 

Here's a link to the relevant Companies House web site: 

http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/about/gbhtml/gba4.shtml


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Do those figures reflect the number of people who have actually registered for unemployment benefit?
> In the UK the figures for people seeking work are higher than the number actually registered as it does not include dependents, those not entitled to benefit etc. so the figure can be a couple of percentage points higher than the official one. Just wondering if it's the same here.
> Those figures plus the breakdown Xose provided should be compulsory reading for people who are fed up with the bad weather, unemployment etc. in the UK and think it's comparatively easy to relocate.



Absolutely M! Should be made into a MAJOR sticky!!:clap2: Especially as a lot of people are looking to relocate to the Andalucia region where it appears that about a quarter of all the unemployment in Spain is registered.

Tallulah.x


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Tallulah said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> 
> Absolutely M! Should be made into a MAJOR sticky!!:clap2: Especially as a lot of people are looking to relocate to the Andalucia region where it appears that about a quarter of all the unemployment in Spain is registered.
> ...



Hhhmm, I know I shouldnt write this on here, but I'm not convinced people look to deeply at the stickies, besides, its much nicer to talk to folks who are looking into things rahter than have them read thru the stickies and then vanish???

Jo xxx


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

JBODEN said:


> [starting a company in England is very cheap - but as a limited company, even if your accountant is cheap, the books must be independantly audited.]
> 
> The turnover threshold which currently exempts most UK limited companies from a *statutory *audit was raised from £1 million to £5.6 million for accounting periods ending after 30 March 2004.


Really? That's interesting - and heartwarming to hear. Very glad for all my fellow freelancers whose life was being made hell by HMRC and were running around like headless chickens looking for the nearest umbrella company.

Tell me something though, does the housewife in the UK earning some spare cash working for XYZ Telemarketing have to do anything other than declare it as income in her self assessment? I'm talking about somebody who sends XYZ an invoice every month - not somebody employed at home by XYZ. I've been out of that system for a few years now and it would be interesting to see if life has been made easier in the UK for these small cash earners.

Thanks,
Tallulah.x


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

jojo said:


> Hhhmm, I know I shouldnt write this on here, but I'm not convinced people look to deeply at the stickies, besides, its much nicer to talk to folks who are looking into things rahter than have them read thru the stickies and then vanish???
> 
> Jo xxx


I know Jo - turns the place into a dry reference library instead, doesn't it - that's why I always say to new posters if they can't find what they're looking for, to start a new thread/ask a question! Always nice to "speak" to someone....

xxxxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> Hhhmm, I know I shouldnt write this on here, but I'm not convinced people look to deeply at the stickies, besides, its much nicer to talk to folks who are looking into things rahter than have them read thru the stickies and then vanish???
> 
> Jo xxx


 
I think most of the stickies get ignored and then they get out of date which is a shame. I do think it's valuable to have all the info about one area together though. I know I can get "pesada", but I usually tell the new posters to do a search on the forum because I think a lot of people post without looking for the info first


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

[, does the housewife in the UK earning some spare cash working for XYZ Telemarketing have to do anything other than declare it as income in her self assessment? ]

Declare the income at financial year end and that's all (assuming that they aren't earnings over GBP 68K p.a. and thus have to register for VAT - but then they would have to set up as a sole trader (I think)).


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## Biscombe (Sep 8, 2009)

Tallulah I was speaking small time self employed. 
It seems to me that you have to have a hell of a lot of capital behind you if you want to take the self employed route here in Spain! Being self employed in the UK is a doddle compared to Spain in my opinion!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

JBODEN said:


> [, does the housewife in the UK earning some spare cash working for XYZ Telemarketing have to do anything other than declare it as income in her self assessment? ]
> 
> Declare the income at financial year end and that's all (assuming that they aren't earnings over GBP 68K p.a. and thus have to register for VAT - but then they would have to set up as a sole trader (I think)).


I'm no expert, but in my experience there are very few companies in the UK who take on people for that kind of work on a casual basis. Most employers and employees prefer the safety net of the PAYE system!!

Jo xxx


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

JBODEN said:


> [, does the housewife in the UK earning some spare cash working for XYZ Telemarketing have to do anything other than declare it as income in her self assessment? ]
> 
> Declare the income at financial year end and that's all (assuming that they aren't earnings over GBP 68K p.a. and thus have to register for VAT - but then they would have to set up as a sole trader (I think)).


You sure about that?

I know several "Contractors" who'd love to hear that one. What happens to NIC then. What's the point of paying oneself "dividends" and ****** all salary if one can just do... that, if your on less than the VAT threshold.

I thik someone, somewhere, probably the famous "grand a year Account Ant" has to do some form of payslip or several agencies would be very upset.... certainly way before 60K.

I could be wrong of course and you simply rake it in and declare it in your self assesment - or not if you don't get sent one?

Xose


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

[Xose;193005]You sure about that?]
I've lost the thread of this. Were to addressing Jojo's post or mine? Maybe you could expand on your point.


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

JBODEN said:


> [Xose;193005]You sure about that?]
> I've lost the thread of this. Were to addressing Jojo's post or mine? Maybe you could expand on your point.


Hi JB,
I replied with your post on top of my reply, so thought it was clear that it was your post I was replying to.

Point being that I don't believe that you can work from home, earn 60K (or much less) and do nothing but declare at year end on your self assesment and everyone's cool with it.

Here it is again....

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBODEN 
[, does the housewife in the UK earning some spare cash working for XYZ Telemarketing have to do anything other than declare it as income in her self assessment? ]

Declare the income at financial year end and that's all (assuming that they aren't earnings over GBP 68K p.a. and thus have to register for VAT - but then they would have to set up as a sole trader (I think)). 

You sure about that?

I know several "Contractors" who'd love to hear that one. What happens to NIC then. What's the point of paying oneself "dividends" and ****** all salary if one can just do... that, if your on less than the VAT threshold.

I think someone, somewhere, probably the famous "grand a year Accountant" has to do some form of payslip or several agencies would be very upset.... certainly way before 60K.

I could be wrong of course and you simply rake it in and declare it in your self assesment - or not if you don't get sent one?

Xose


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

Xose said:


> Hi JB,
> I replied with your post on top of my reply, so thought it was clear that it was your post I was replying to.
> 
> Point being that I don't believe that you can work from home, earn 60K (or much less) and do nothing but declare at year end on your self assesment and everyone's cool with it.
> ...


Sorry, you are right. My post was misleading. You in fact need to do an up front self-assessment, pay notional tax & NIC during the year and then at year-end do a final calculation/settlement.
See:
HM Revenue & Customs: Tax returns for the self-employed


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

What's so great about being self-employed?? We owned and my partner was MD of a medium-sized UK Company and were we glad to shut up shop and get away from it all....
Paying an accountant, no holidays-with-pay, sorting out your own pension scheme and those of your employees,cancelled holidays, working all hours and rarely a free weekend, cash flow to worry about, awkward employees....plus paying tax on most things you need in order to make a profit and then being taxed on the profit...
We even worked on Christmas Day on at least one occasion! One day, whilst walking the dog in the woods during a snatched lunch break, we decided 'Enough already...'
By contrast I was on the public payroll, no worries about where my salary was coming from, long paid holidays, final salary pension scheme etc etc - even reduced BUPA membership.
If you have a burning desire to be your own boss, the ideal would seem to be something where you are 'master and man', so to speak. No bolshy employees, earn as much as you feel happy with (assuming you can), reasonable working hours.
I can only imagine that running a company here must be a nightmare.
By the way, Jo, I see your OH's Company is based in Southampton. I took my first degree at University there. We used to practically live at a pub called the Cowherd's something or other, by the common. Ploughman's lunch and Huntsman's Ale...oh happy memories...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Tallulah said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> 
> Absolutely M! Should be made into a MAJOR sticky!!:clap2: Especially as a lot of people are looking to relocate to the Andalucia region where it appears that about a quarter of all the unemployment in Spain is registered.
> ...


Wouldn't it be interesting to have some follow-up, to learn how many would- be emigres actually get here and stay for any length of time?


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## nicko (Jul 29, 2009)

*self employed*

OK, the occasional telesales person is likely to be an employee anyway. Anyway, ignoring that point, if they were being paid on invoice (as self employed) then they'd have to register with HMRC (a form or phone call) and start paying NIC as a self employed person (assuming income/profits over the NIC threshold). Any income paid as self employed (unless it is a loss making hobby) requires you to register and join the tax and NIC club. sadly.

the VAT theshold isn't relevant to the tax/NIC points - the 68K VAT threshold just kicks in to make accounting more complex and raises the "stake" in the game, that's all. And of course requires a seperate registration to join the VAT club.

nick


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