# Are you an expat or an immigrant?



## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Why are white people expats when the rest of us are immigrants? | Global Development Professionals Network | The Guardian


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

citlali said:


> Why are white people expats when the rest of us are immigrants? | Global Development Professionals Network | The Guardian


Wow


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

citlali said:


> Why are white people expats when the rest of us are immigrants? | Global Development Professionals Network | The Guardian


Interesting. I usually refer to non-Mexicans here as foreigners, including me. But I never realized the distinctions implicit in expat versus immigrant. I do know I was an illegal alien here for a few months at one point.


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## antonieta (Feb 14, 2015)

Citlali, I read that article this morning and thought it was really interesting, too. I've always disliked the term expat as to me it brings up associations with privileged Americans living in other places without realizing that they are privileged. I remember the word first used to describe F. Scott Fitzgerald, Gertrude Stein and others in Paris in the 30s and 40s.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Expats to me were the Brits living in Italy, South of France, Greece etc.. Most of them well off enough to live there without having to work...I have to say I have never heard of an African even a rich one referred to as expat . The fallen dictators were in exil and were not referred to as expats.. expats were mostly Brits and Americans living abroad without having to make a living... 
I always considered myself as immigrant since I had to work to make a living but now that I am retired I guess I could be considered an expat but never think of myself that way..


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

In French we also have" exilé "and "refugié": Picasso Dali and others artists and intelectuals were "exilés" because they disagreed with the regime in Spain and left but my brother in law´s father who was a worker who did not want to live under Franco was considered a refugié .
The difference is that he came wit the clothes on his back , had to learn French and find work when the artists and intellectuals did not have to look for a job and integrate and could be as excentric as they wanted to.
The difference was pretty much socio economic.


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## antonieta (Feb 14, 2015)

I have the same sense about 'expat' having a socio-economic meaning. I was going to say it's a class thing. I know this is the expat forum and we are all expats so I am talking generally here and not to anyone in particular or as a group  but to me, the expat thing has a whiff of colonialism after the colonies ceased to exist. Or a whiff of living in another country out of choice, but not integrating into that country, staying a bit apart and advantaged in your financial power, your race, or your class even though we supposedly live in a classless society. 

I don't at all mean that all expats have these attitudes or are in these positions, just that the word brings up this image to me. I wish there were another word, but it's too clumsy to say 'people from developed countries who live in another country', especially when some are citizens, have married citizens or have other strong ties. 

My mom was French so I have some feelings for the expat culture there. The Woody Allen film 'Midnight in Paris' is an example: it's a fantasy about the Fitzgerald-Hemingway-Stein group. It's a film about Paris but most of the characters are Americans, seeing Paris as Americans usually do, in tourist clichés of glowing lights and magic. My French friends all hated the film and said it was false, while my American friends all loved it and said it was a masterpiece. I know Americans who live in France as expats (they use the word) without speaking French or really talking to French people, but they define themselves as French, wear berets and Petit Bateau shirts, etc. They sneer at the US and capitalism but they moved to France after getting loans from US banks. I think they are kind of silly and living in a fantasy and they think I am a grumpy snob. lol. 

With today's lousy economic outlook and globalization, being an expat is more complicated. I've met several young people here in Gdl. from the UK and US who work online teaching English to Chinese. They are paid by a Taiwanese company in US dollars. Jobs are so scarce in the US that this isn't a bad idea for someone in their 20s, but I was surprised that they didn't know much at all about Ayotzinapa, current Mexican politics, Tlatleloco, nada. And they barely speak Spanish and don't see much need to learn. They're not wealthy but their passports let them come here easily while a Mexican couldn't do the same. But they are young and I bet in 5 or 10 years they will have a deeper appreciation of the cultural differences between countries.


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## Chelloveck (Sep 21, 2013)

I've always thought of an expatriate as someone who is temporarily living in a country other than their own, and an immigrant as someone who moves to another country with the intention of establishing permanent residence.

I consider myself an expat in Mexico because I came here not knowing how long I would stay, but knowing it would be temporary, and that I would probably return to the U.S. within six months or maybe a year or two or three. If I decide to stay long-term or permanently, I would consider myself an immigrant.

While all immigrants might also be expats, not all expats are necessarily immigrants. If you know you will only be in a foreign country for a limited time, and do not expect to establish permanent residence, you aren't an immigrant.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

In the USA, I don't think I've ever heard a "foreigner" or "immigrant" referred to as an "expat." In Mexico, other than on this forum, the "ExpatForum.com" I've rarely heard a foreigner or immigrant described as an expat. It seems to me the initial motivation for the opinion piece in _The Guardian_, linked in the original post in this discussion, was a _Wall Street Journal _article discussing what the term "expat" means in Hong Kong (and _The Guardian_ article focuses on Europe, I'm recalling). I can't speak to the issue of how "expat" is defined/used in Asian countries nor in Europe, but I think that discussion in _The Guardian_ and _Wall Street Journal_ is irrelevant when it comes to discussing foreigners in Mexico and when "expat" or "immigrant" are used to describe ones status in Mexico or the USA I don't believe the race/nationality of the individual being described plays a part.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

I cannot relate well to this article, as it concerns Europe and Asia, not the USA and Mexico. IMHO. The first time I encountered the term expatriate was when I came to Mexico, and it was described to me as a person temporarily living outside their home country, which fit me. When I said that some people come here to live permanently, the response was that they are "immigrants" and will probably die here. Race, nationality, nor social status was ever mentioned about either group. In the USA, I have only heard the terms "foreigner" and "immigrant," and " illegal alien", never "expat". I always refer to myself in Mexico as an "extranjero", and most Mexicans seem to use that term. Rarely do I ever hear the term "expat " used, except when someone writes something about a "large expat" community at Lakeside. I doubt that many Mexicans believe many "extranjeros" are here to become true "immigrants", even most of those who have "permanente visas" continue to return regularly NOB.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Mexicans say extranjeros, foreigners, 
Sometimes we would say something like " ya vive aqui" " ya vive en Mexico" 
Expats, nah


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

coondawg said:


> …even most of those who have "permanente visas" continue to return regularly NOB.


Depends on what you mean by "regularly". I don't know many foreigners living in Mexico, but the few that I do know rarely visit the US, maybe to visit relatives once a year or so. I usually visit the US for a few days a year around the time of my son's birthday. I would not put my permanente visa in quotes. It feels pretty permanent to me.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

citlali said:


> Why are white people expats when the rest of us are immigrants? | Global Development Professionals Network | The Guardian


Because the "White" people think of themselves as being better class and "immigrants" as being lower class. It all stems from the days when government officials were sent overseas to act on their country's behalf. They had all intentions of retuning to their home country when their posting was over - they called them selves ex-patriate (i.e. outside their home country) Immigrants, on the other hand, were those who had moved lock-stock and barrel to a new country (either voluntarily or forcibly) with no intention or hope of returning to their home-country.

However, the dictionary definition suggests that expatriate is deprived of one's own nationality or banished


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

coondawg said:


> I cannot relate well to this article, as it concerns Europe and Asia, not the USA and Mexico. IMHO. The first time I encountered the term expatriate was when I came to Mexico, and it was described to me as a person temporarily living outside their home country, which fit me. When I said that some people come here to live permanently, the response was that they are "immigrants" and will probably die here. Race, nationality, nor social status was ever mentioned about either group. In the USA, I have only heard the terms "foreigner" and "immigrant," and " illegal alien", never "expat". I always refer to myself in Mexico as an "extranjero", and most Mexicans seem to use that term. Rarely do I ever hear the term "expat " used, except when someone writes something about a "large expat" community at Lakeside. I doubt that many Mexicans believe many "extranjeros" are here to become true "immigrants", even most of those who have "permanente visas" continue to return regularly NOB.


The term "ex-patriate" has been used in many books and movies for about 4 decades usually describing Americans, Canadians, British or Austrialians who have moved to either Vietnam, Thailand or the Philipines after the Vietnam war and live there permanently, usually ex soldiers or those connected to the foreign counrty in some way [marriage, diplomates, businessmen,] etc.. 

In India British immigrants used the term ex-patriates for a very long time since India´s Independence,. Possibly this is when the term became popular among English speaking foreigners.

It appears to be used exclusively by English speaking immigrants [to describe themselves and others like them] and not other immigrants in some parts of the World. More recently in Mexico and Latin America.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

TundraGreen said:


> Depends on what you mean by "regularly"..


Regular to me: things like birthdays, visit family, visit friends, appointments with certain doctors, holidays, depends on the person. Some even make their annual 2-3 month trek and spend time with grandchildren and bring back a car load of "goodies", too.  
I know a bunch that do these things. I also know a bunch that got their "permanente" just because it was easy and they never have to "mess" with immigration any more. (A lot of tears were shed over the car issue, however, but in the end, they gave that up, too)


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

I think "Baldilocks" has explained the article clearly from a European perspective. That, IMHO, shows that the article is not very revelant to us in the Americas. We don't always use terms the same way over "here". YOMD.  I still see myself as an "extranjero" here in Mexico, or "ya vive aqui".


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## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

I wonder if this is just the latest issue circulating in academic circles? Recently a California university, UC-Irvine I think, voted to not display the American flag as it's, to them at least, a symbol of oppression. Then there's the issue of "White privilege" being bandied about. I like the word expat, but so as not to ruffle any feathers from henceforth, if anyone asks, I'm an economic refugee.


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## makaloco (Mar 26, 2009)

coondawg said:


> I think "Baldilocks" has explained the article clearly from a European perspective. That, IMHO, shows that the article is not very revelant to us in the Americas. We don't always use terms the same way over "here". YOMD.  I still see myself as an "extranjero" here in Mexico, or "ya vive aqui".


I agree with Baldilocks on the origins and usage of the terms but don't follow how they would apply differently in the Western hemisphere than in the Eastern. Before moving to Mexico eight years ago, I lived in Egypt for 25 years, and my status (real or perceived) was no different except for working there and being retired here. In both places: foreigner, long-term resident, "expat" to other English-speaking foreigners, non-immigrant because I had and still have the freedom to repatriate at any time. To me, "immigrant" in common usage implies a one-way relocation and usually the intent to become a citizen and permanent resident of the destination country.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> Depends on what you mean by "regularly". I don't know many foreigners living in Mexico, but the few that I do know rarely visit the US, maybe to visit relatives once a year or so. I usually visit the US for a few days a year around the time of my son's birthday. I would not put my permanente visa in quotes. It feels pretty permanent to me.


That's my situation too. I go back to the States once a year to visit my mother and various friends.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Isla Verde said:


> That's my situation too. I go back to the States once a year to visit my mother and various friends.


IMHO, you and T.G. are what I would call "extranjeros" that have become "immigrants" in Mexico, and I think most here would agree with that classification.  What you and he do, I would call a "vacation".  Still think many Mexicans believe that "one day" you will move back NOB.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

coondawg said:


> IMHO, you and T.G. are what I would call "extranjeros" that have become "immigrants" in Mexico, and I think most here would agree with that classification.  What you and he do, I would call a "vacation".  Still think many Mexicans believe that "one day" you will move back NOB.


I actually spend a lot more time in Europe than I do in the US, when I am out of Mexico. I have one kid in the US and one kid in Germany. I visit the one in Germany more often and for longer than the one in the US.

But you are correct in that many people I meet ask how long I am planning to stay. I usually respond by saying it depends on how long I live.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

coondawg said:


> . . What you and he do, I would call a "vacation".  Still think many Mexicans believe that "one day" you will move back NOB.


Yes, once a year I have a vacation back in the States. Why did you put the word in quotation marks? 

I haven't run into Mexicans who think I will move back to the States some day. But I am sometimes asked why I chose Mexico for my new home, and I am happy to tell them.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> . . . But you are correct in that many people I meet ask how long I am planning to stay. I usually respond by saying it depends on how long I live.


Good answer!


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Isla Verde said:


> Why did you put the word in quotation marks?
> .


I like using " " marks.  
One nice thing about being "old" is that you can do many things that "you want to do" (whether it is exactly correct, or not) and get away with it.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

coondawg said:


> I like using " " marks.
> One nice thing about being "old" is that you can do many things that "you want to do" (whether it is exactly correct, or not) and get away with it.


You sound like my friend Daniel Reveles who lives just outside Tecate.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

coondawg said:


> I like using " " marks.
> One nice thing about being "old" is that you can do many things that "you want to do" (whether it is exactly correct, or not) and get away with it.


It's not a matter of being correct. I just wondered what it meant.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> You sound like my friend Daniel Reveles who lives just outside Tecate.


Not me, but sometimes Jose Cuervo and I have been really friendly.


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## dwwhiteside (Apr 17, 2013)

I just got my Residente Permanente a few weeks ago. So, you can call me an expat, immigrant, extranjero or ******; just don't call me late for dinner.


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