# Please help! Re European Citizens' Initiative.



## Easyriders (Apr 4, 2013)

We are both British, with British passports, but living in Portugal. We have temporary residency.

We both want to sign the European Citizens' Initiative, but so far it seems impossible. Can anyone advise, please? here is a link:

https://eci.ec.europa.eu/002/public/#/initiative

The problem is this. If you enter country of residence as Portugal, you have to supply the number of one of three documents issued by Portugal - passaporte, bilhete de identidade or cartao de cidadao. We don't have any of these, only a temporary residence certificate called "CERTIFICADO DE REGISTO DE CIDADAO DA UNIAO EUROPEIA".

You cannot enter a British passport number. If,on the other hand, you choose UK as the country you are a national of, you can only sign the initiative if you are resident in the UK!

It therefore seems impossible for us to sign the initiative. And, as far as I can see, impossible for any EU citizen who lives in a different EU state from that where their passport or identity card was issued., unless they have been able to acquire citizenship in their country of residence.

There must be millions of us! And in particular, it means non-UK people of the EU living in the UK, or UK people living in other EU states, cannot sign the initiative. Which surely defeats the object of the exercise!

I would be grateful if anyone knows any answers to this conundrum.
Thank you
Linda


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## JohnBoy (Oct 25, 2009)

How interesting and frustrating!

This piece called, "Permanent EU citizenship - If not now, then when?" is by a guy called Tony Simpson. If you drop down to the bottom of his piece, there's its an opportunity to leave a comment. Might be worth a try.


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

Actually there is no such thing (with a UK passport ATM) as temporary residency......... Either you have registered residency or you have not & if you have registered as resident then that's what you are & the term EU citizen is also inaccurate as you are rather a citizen of an EU member state. 

I'm not making that statement to have a pop at anyone here but rather to point out that (IMO) all these polls & petitions are utterly meaningless BS designed to whip up hysteria for no good reason. 

Even all the will we/won't we be allowed to stay in Portugal or not is nonsense because that was decided in 1980 when the 1969 Vienna Convention was enacted & Portugal is a signatory state. 

It's a horrible thing to read but as I understand it, that & the acquired rights issue both seem to say that once someone is domiciled in a signatory state they have the right to not only remain but also to retain free movement within the EU. 

The only question that remains (IMO) is will we retain access to the NHS here but current PT law says all residents are entitled to the same NHS care as any Portuguese person so I think that's unlikely to change as well.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

travelling-man said:


> Actually there is no such thing (with a UK passport ATM) as temporary residency......... Either you have registered residency or you have not & if you have registered as resident then that's what you are & the term EU citizen is also inaccurate as you are rather* a citizen of an EU member state.
> *
> I'm not making that statement to have a pop at anyone here but rather to point out that (IMO) all these polls & petitions are utterly meaningless BS designed to whip up hysteria for no good reason.
> 
> ...


BUT when Brexit finally hits the ground the UK will no longer be an EU member so its citizens will (in theory) no longer be EU citizens. The Initiative is intended to put pressure on the EU to create a category of citizenship that is independent of the nationality of the citizen.

If the OP is a legally registered resident of PT then she/he/they should have some form of identification. For example, here in Spain, we have a NIE (Numero de Identificación Extranjero) which is equivalent to a Spaniard's NIF and that is the number we use on that website.


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> BUT when Brexit finally hits the ground the UK will no longer be an EU member so its citizens will (in theory) no longer be EU citizens. The Initiative is intended to put pressure on the EU to create a category of citizenship that is independent of the nationality of the citizen.
> 
> If the OP is a legally registered resident of PT then she/he/they should have some form of identification. For example, here in Spain, we have a NIE (Numero de Identificación Extranjero) which is equivalent to a Spaniard's NIF and that is the number we use on that website.


The flaw in that argument is that there is no such thing as an EU citizen so Brits are no more an EU citizen now than they will be after Brexit. 

As for creating a new EU citizenship status, that'd take all countries in the EU to agree to it & with the current situation with countries such as Hungary & Italy etc I think there's more chance of finding Elvis alive & well & living on the moon. 

But hey, if it makes people feel good to sign up for pointless petitions then they should go for it.


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## JohnBoy (Oct 25, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> If the OP is a legally registered resident of PT then she/he/they should have some form of identification. For example, here in Spain, we have a NIE (Numero de Identificación Extranjero) which is equivalent to a Spaniard's NIF and that is the number we use on that website.


Nice thought, but the OP only has temporary citizenship which they hold for five years before becoming 'permanent'. The form for the petition requires a person resident in Portugal to state their Portuguese passport number, identity card number or Citizen Card number. None of us qualifies for those forms of ID. 

If I was bothered about signing, I imagine that the number on my permanent residence card would do. I won't be rummaging around in the drawers for it though.


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## Easyriders (Apr 4, 2013)

travelling-man said:


> Actually there is no such thing (with a UK passport ATM) as temporary residency......... Either you have registered residency or you have not & if you have registered as resident then that's what you are & the term EU citizen is also inaccurate as you are rather a citizen of an EU member state.
> 
> I'm not making that statement to have a pop at anyone here but rather to point out that (IMO) all these polls & petitions are utterly meaningless BS designed to whip up hysteria for no good reason.
> 
> ...


All I can say is, it was described as "temporary residency", and it lasts for 5 years. After the five years are up, we can apply for "permanent" residency, which lasts for 10 years, renewable. We are aware that all the rules about residency and citizenship are under consideration by the Portuguese government, but the system has not changed yet. The problem is, our right of resident is contingent on being a citizen of an EU or EEA country. After Brexit, this will not be true.


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## Easyriders (Apr 4, 2013)

JohnBoy said:


> Nice thought, but the OP only has temporary citizenship which they hold for five years before becoming 'permanent'. The form for the petition requires a person resident in Portugal to state their Portuguese passport number, identity card number or Citizen Card number. None of us qualifies for those forms of ID.
> 
> If I was bothered about signing, I imagine that the number on my permanent residence card would do. I won't be rummaging around in the drawers for it though.


We did try entering the numbers on our temporary residence document, but they are not valid for this purpose. It's just so frustrating - the very people who might be helped by this initiative are those who cannot endorse it!


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## Easyriders (Apr 4, 2013)

travelling-man said:


> Actually there is no such thing (with a UK passport ATM) as temporary residency......... Either you have registered residency or you have not & if you have registered as resident then that's what you are & the term EU citizen is also inaccurate as you are rather a citizen of an EU member state.
> 
> I'm not making that statement to have a pop at anyone here but rather to point out that (IMO) all these polls & petitions are utterly meaningless BS designed to whip up hysteria for no good reason.
> 
> ...


I think perhaps you should read this document:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2017/583135/IPOL_STU(2017)583135_EN.pdf

In particular, this quote from page 11 of the document:

"The study concludes that both public international law jurisprudence and European Union law
including their case-law, can confirm resolutely that rights of citizenship or at least the most
rights linked to EU citizenship will not remain valid after the UK’s withdrawal from the EU. It
suggests to provide for them expressly during the negotiations under Article 50 TEU and
include them into the withdrawal agreement in order to maintain them with the requisite
degree of legal certainty going forward." 

I'm not being awkward, either. But there is great danger in being complacent, given the mess that is Brexit!


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

Easyriders said:


> All I can say is, it was described as "temporary residency", and it lasts for 5 years. After the five years are up, we can apply for "permanent" residency, which lasts for 10 years, renewable. We are aware that all the rules about residency and citizenship are under consideration by the Portuguese government, but the system has not changed yet. The problem is, our right of resident is contingent on being a citizen of an EU or EEA country. After Brexit, this will not be true.


It's not a residency visa as such but rather a registration of residency & it cannot be refused to holders of passports from EU member states so temporary residency is incorrect. 

Citizenship & right to it is up to the PT Government but the right to residency is an EU issue & obviously related to the freedom of movement between EU states. 

As for your " right of resident is contingent on being a citizen of an EU or EEA country. After Brexit, this will not be true." (IMO) that argument is invalid....... It's a horrible thing to read but as I read it, The 1969 Vienna Convention (enacted 1980) & the Acquired Rights issues related to that state that once someone is domiciled in a signatory state they have the right to remain so as PT is a signatory state & assuming you have residency and/or are domiciled here you have the right to remain even after Brexit. 

I really think this thing is a waste of time firstly for the reasons mentioned above & secondly, it'd require the agreement of all member states & as several including Italy & Hungary are dead set against such an idea it'll never happen.


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