# Qs re Tax, Elective Residency, Notary etc



## PumpinFe

Hi all.
I am planning on moving to Italy and have been doing research online, there are still quite a bit of questions which I am confused about. I hope some of you can help.

1. Elective residency and land registration tax.
I believe I can apply for my Codice Fiscale BEFORE I even board the plane to Italy to search for a property. However, should I (or can I) apply for the CF and Elective Residency at the same time? I believe you pay around 3-4% as opposed to 10% in land registration tax when you make a purchase as a resident. But if i apply for ER before I leave for property search, I wouldnt have an address in Italy to give them, would it make the application unsuccessful? I read somewhere that i can "declare" my intention on becoming a resident within 18 months of the purchase in the deed Does that mean they will take my word for it and charge me only 3%? How would they know if I dont become a resident?

2. Legal adviser vs Solicitor
I read something someone posted on this forum regarding using a "legal adviser' as opposed to a lawyer, and the legal adviser was negotiating with the vendor and helping with lowering the agent's fee. What???!!! (lol) . Isnt it the agent's job to negotiate with the property seller? How is the legal adviser able to negotiate a lower agent's fee? Is Legal Adviser = Notorio? And isnt it the solicitor's job to do title search and other possible liens against the property? Why would someone require a legal adviser and not a solicitor? We all need a solicitor for all transactions, no? When is a legal adviser is preferred and how do we find one? What is the difference in roles between a solicitor and a notorio?

3. Setting up an Italian bank account for the offer and purchase.
Do I need an italian bank account for the final transaction to go through? If so, how do I set up an account before I even leave for Italy to search for properties in case I find something I like and would like to make an offer? Also, as for the initial deposit of 1%, does that mean I have to carry a few thousand EUROS cash with me in my pocket just in case I want to make an offer during my property search trip?

4. Elective Residency financial requirement.
Do I have to show them EVERYTHING that I have in the application? Or would it be sufficient to show that I have met the requirement. (I dont want them to know my total net worth).

Thank you so much for your help!


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## NickZ

Most of the things you've asked about are done relatively quickly and easily in Italy.

A CF won't take very long to get. The agent you're working with will likely help you. I wouldn't be surprised if they drove you to the office and filled out the form. Remember they won't get any money until you complete the sale.

If you're in a city with a consulate you can try and get a CF before boarding the plane but if you need to travel likely not worth it.

Cash? ATMs. Even 1% on 200k is only 2K. 500 a day for four days.

You'll likely start out with a non resident bank account. Expensive but shouldn't be that hard to get. Remember the agent driving you . Once you've achieved residency you can change to a normal account.

You declare to the Notaio that this will be your prima casa. If after 18 months you aren't on the list in that town they'll send you a bill for the difference plus the fine.


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## Mozella

PumpinFe said:


> ............
> 4. Elective Residency financial requirement.
> Do I have to show them EVERYTHING that I have in the application? Or would it be sufficient to show that I have met the requirement. (I dont want them to know my total net worth)...............


I hear what you're saying, but how do you know that you've "met the requirement" ? As far as anyone can tell, it's not published, it certainly varies from consulate-to-consulate, and perhaps varies with the phase of the moon. 

Simply showing enough income to equal the income necessary to stay off public assistance is not generally regarded as enough to get an ER visa. In other words, there is quite a bit of mystery about how much passive income, assets, savings, pension, SSA payments, etc. is sufficient.

Remember, the clerk is going to give you permission to live in his country without being any kind of a drain on HIS society into which he pays a great deal of tax.

Suit yourself, but I'd be nervous about cutting it too fine. Being rejected for not showing enough financial Moxie would be a real PITA, at least as far as I'm concerned.


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## PumpinFe

If you're in a city with a consulate you can try and get a CF before boarding the plane but if you need to travel likely not worth it.

What do you mean by 'if you need to travel"?

Cash? ATMs. Even 1% on 200k is only 2K. 500 a day for four days.

But lets say the property i am planning on buying is 600K? In that case, cash in pocket?

You declare to the Notaio that this will be your prima casa. If after 18 months you aren't on the list in that town they'll send you a bill for the difference plus the fine.

Lets also say I am buying a "ruin" to restore and it requires more than 2 years for completion, it wont meet the 18 months deadline. As far as I know (I could be wrong), you need to have a permanent address to apply for Elective Residency.

Any input on my question regarding Legal Advisor vs Solicitor? Thanks mate.


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## NickZ

If you live in Toronto then depending on your home it's a drive to the consulate. Hell if you live near chinatown you could take the streetcar. OTOH if you live in North Bay I wouldn't bother making the trip to Toronto.

Even 600K isn't that hard to deal with. €750 per trip to the ATM is eight days. I promise you the agent will wait with baited breath. Also remember you'll need to declare at the border any cash over 10K .

If you buy a ruin your best plan is to rent in the same town. Get residency on the rental. Legally that qualifies. There is no way you'll be 100% sure a ruin will livable in time.

I've no idea what you're asking. A solicitor works for you. Providing all the legal advice. A Notaio works for both parties with the obligation to be impartial. I've no idea who these non lawyer advisers are. Would you be able to check their backgrounds? Skill sets?

If you get a lawyer it's in addition to the Notaio.


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## PumpinFe

Yes, a streetcar would take me to the Consulate. lol.

If you get the time, search for the thread "looking for english speaking solicitor". I think its on page 3 or 4. The person said he/she was recommended to get their own legal advisor for the whole purchasing process. I always thought the lawyer and/or notario were required to give me "legal advise"? Why would someone need a separate legal advisor? So the whole process would involve a LOT of people - me, the seller, agent, solicitor, notario, legal advisor.
The most puzzling thing on that thread is that the person said the legal advisor was able to negotiate with the seller on the purchase price and lowering of the agent's fee. Because I would believe it was the real estate agent's job to negotiate and the agent fee is somewhat pre agreed upon? Also, wouldnt you require legal advisor or lawyer only AFTER you have already made the initial offer to purchase? So how would a legal advisor be able to negotiate with the price? I am very confused.


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## PumpinFe

Ahhh OK , now let me try to get this straight. A legal advisor = lawyer (solictor) in this case. And I dont really NEED a lawyer to make the purchase (unlike here in North America), and you sign everything in front of a Notario. The law requires a translator to be present upon signing of any documents and the Notario cannot also act as a translator and i would have to find my own translator (either through the recommendation by the Notario or through my hiring of a legal advisor/solicitor who is also a translator). Am i correct? lol
I still dont understand, according to that thread, that a legal advisor is able to negotiate with the vendor and agents fee however.


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## NickZ

There are two sides. Buyer/Seller.

Both the Notaio and the agent are supposed to be impartial and work for both sides. The Notaio will almost always be. You hope the agent is.

With the agent working for both sides there is a limit to how hard he can push the seller. He works for the seller. Obviously the agent isn't going to attack his own fee. That's your job 

Your lawyer works only for you. 

The Notaio needs to be comfortable you fully understand the process and are competent. If he feels your Italian is weak he will require a legal translator. Plus having the documents translated. If he feels you're fine in Italian there is no need for any translation. A plain old translator won't work. The person needs to handle legal documents. At least if things haven't changed.


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## Mozella

NickZ said:


> There are two sides. Buyer/Seller.
> 
> Both the Notaio and the agent are supposed to be impartial and work for both sides. The Notaio will almost always be. You hope the agent is.
> 
> With the agent working for both sides there is a limit to how hard he can push the seller. He works for the seller. Obviously the agent isn't going to attack his own fee. That's your job
> 
> Your lawyer works only for you.
> 
> The Notaio needs to be comfortable you fully understand the process and are competent. If he feels your Italian is weak he will require a legal translator. Plus having the documents translated. If he feels you're fine in Italian there is no need for any translation. A plain old translator won't work. The person needs to handle legal documents. At least if things haven't changed.


I don't know the actual law, but I think you're correct when you say the Notaio must be convinced you are able to understand the contract and purchasing process which will be entirely in Italian. However, in my case, the Notaio was comfortable when I brought an American friend with me to act as translator. She was not official in any way nor is she specially qualified to handle legal documents. She does have a pretty good grasp of Italian but she is far from a linguist and calling her "fluent" might be something of a stretch.

I had the contract draft ahead of time and, with the help of Google Translate, I was able to understand it in spite of my very weak Italian language skills at the time. The Notaio did not require any of the documents to be translated.

Bottom line: Like most everything in Italy, your experience will vary depending on who you're dealing with, where you live, and perhaps the phase of the moon.


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## Mozella

PumpinFe said:


> ..................And I dont really NEED a lawyer to make the purchase (unlike here in North America), ......................


Just so someone doesn't get the wrong idea from your comment I'll say that the requirement for a lawyer to get involved with a real estate transaction in North America is not true in every instance. I don't know anything about the laws in Mexico or Canada, but I can say that I've personally purchase real estate in seven different states in the United States of America and only one (New York) involved the services of a lawyer. In other words, laws vary from state-to-state.

Perhaps I'm picking nits here; if so I apologize. 

In a different response, you can see my personal experience about using a translator for buying my home in Italy.

One more data point. You might be able to negotiate the realtor's fee yourself. For example, my realtor showed me the property consisting of the house and five parcels of adjacent land. He told me one parcel included a nice grove of hazel nut trees. At the last moment, after I had made a commitment to buy and just before the appointment with the Notaio, it turned out he was incorrect and the parcel which went with the house was next to the nut trees. 

Of course, I was not real happy but I still wanted the property and the seller had nothing to do with the error. I demanded that the realtor reduce his fee by a significant amount, which he reluctantly did.


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## NickZ

The thing about translators is the Notaio wants it for his benefit not yours. If in the future there was a problem and your lawyer asked why things hadn't been translated the person potentially on the hook is the Notaio.


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## PumpinFe

Mozella said:


> In a different response, you can see my personal experience about using a translator for buying my home in Italy.


Where can I see it? I am interested. Also, how did you find your notario and translator? did you have a legal advisor and how did you find that person? Lastly, I am still very confused about what the person said on the thread "looking for english speaking solicitor" where he/she said the legal advisor was able to negotiate with the vendor. If you get the chance, please check out that thread, I believe its on page 3 or 4.
Thank you for your input.


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## PumpinFe

NickZ said:


> I've no idea what you're asking. A solicitor works for you. Providing all the legal advice. A Notaio works for both parties with the obligation to be impartial. I've no idea who these non lawyer advisers are. Would you be able to check their backgrounds? Skill sets?
> 
> If you get a lawyer it's in addition to the Notaio.



I know its confusing because I am very confused. Please read the thread which is on page 3 or 4 "looking for english speaking solicitor" where the poster said he/she got himself a "legal advisor" and the legal advisor was also his translator and was able to negotiate on his behalf with the vendor and agent's fee. Please check it out and see if you could understand it.


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## BBCWatcher

I'd like to add one comment here. I think it's quite simply a bad idea to buy a home in Italy to apply for an ER visa. It's too risky. The ER visa may not get approved, and you haven't lived in Italy to know what you like.

There's an easy solution: rent. Assuming the ER visa is approved, _then_ take your time to find something you like _after_ some time living in Italy.


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## Mozella

PumpinFe said:


> Where can I see it? I am interested. Also, how did you find your notario and translator? did you have a legal advisor and how did you find that person? Lastly, I am still very confused about what the person said on the thread "looking for english speaking solicitor" where he/she said the legal advisor was able to negotiate with the vendor. If you get the chance, please check out that thread, I believe its on page 3 or 4.
> Thank you for your input.


You can see my other comments someplace in this thread. Just look for a reply from Mozella.

My Notaio was recommended by the real estate agent.

My translator has been a friend of mine for 45 years.

I didn't use a lawyer or legal adviser. I don't even know what a "legal advisor" is.

The Notaio represented my legal interests.

I negotiated directly with the real estate agent myself, with the help of printed proposals I made using Google Translate.


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## PumpinFe

Mozella said:


> I didn't use a lawyer or legal adviser. I don't even know what a "legal advisor" is.


I think I got it now. That person hired a "legal advisor" (who is a lawyer) and that legal advisor also acted as his/her translator. And when things went wrong (on the part of the real estate agent or the seller, the legal advisor acted on his behalf (assuming the legal advisor was also given the power of attorney) to negotiate with the agent or the seller to sort things out.

Once again, I thought we all HAD TO sign documents in front of a lawyer, but in Italy, they do it with the Notaio.

Since I dont know anyone there, I would have to depend on the agent to recommend a Notaio, and find myself a legal advisor/solicitor/translator/powerof attorney.


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## Mozella

PumpinFe said:


> ............ snip ............... I read somewhere that i can "declare" my intention on becoming a resident within 18 months of the purchase in the deed Does that mean they will take my word for it and charge me only 3%? How would they know if I dont become a resident?
> 
> ............. snip ...........


You probably already know that your visa lets you enter the country. It doesn't let you stay without plenty of additional documentation. First you apply for your permesso di soggiorno which is what allows you to stay in Italy longer than 90 days. After that, you register as a resident of your particular TOWN or community. The residency is local. This concept of "residency" may seem quite odd to Americans who can come and go as they wish without ever telling anyone when they move in or move out.

It's different in Italy where everyone is expected to formally notify their community when they arrive. Everyone also must "check out" when they leave and go to a different town. You're not supposed to just float around without a "home town", so to speak.

I purchased my house before becoming a resident and I paid the lower tax rate based on my intention of not only becoming a resident but also living in that particular home full time. About 18 months later, I got a summons to appear before the local taxing authority to actually prove my status. I had to fill out documents swearing that I lived in the house, that I hadn't sold any part of the land (nor did I intend to), etc. etc. I also had to show my residency documents, I had to find the assessed value of my house and land (this required me to hire a surveyor) and bring in documents showing that data. It was a real PITA and took me many days of filling out papers and chasing down answers (all in my poor Italian of course). 

In America, the tax authority would have the tax valuation of your real property in their file and they tell you what it is. Here, they told me (under severe penalty) that I had to find that value and bring the appropriate documents to them as proof. As you might imagine, it wasn't easy. 

I asked if they had any reason to doubt my original claim about intending to become a resident and live in the house. They said no and indicated that this was a normal procedure. Two weeks later I got an entirely separate but identical request from the regional tax office, so I had to appear before them with all the same documents. After showing them I had just jumped through the hoops at their branch office, they dismissed me with an apology. But since the letter said that I would be severely penalized if I didn't show up at the appointment, I insisted they give me some sort of document proving that I HAD indeed appeared the second time; i.e. a receipt of some kind. This, of course, threw a monkey wrench in their normal routine. I eventually got a letter but it took an additional three hours of running around their offices from clerk-to-clerk before someone thought they had the authority to issue it. I was assumed guilty (for no reason) and had to prove and/or swear that I didn't violate any laws. 

In summary, they don't know your residency status but they do know your address. Therefore, they only need threaten you with a letter of demand 18 months after you purchase real estate. Since you have everything to lose, they (rightly) figure you'll respond. If you don't, you get the larger tax bill plus a hefty fine. Welcome to invasive socialism.

By the way, if you import household goods, you can do so tax free if you become a resident. I made such a declaration but, unlike my real estate, nobody followed up on my household goods shipment.

Finally, the absolute silly rule of having to have a real place to live before you get your ER visa is a real PITA. No landlord want's to rent to a stranger and no stranger wants to lease an apartment sight unseen. Likewise, nobody want's to buy a house long distance. One poor and potentially expensive solution is to visit Italy, rent an apartment, and then apply for your ER visa. But that is a very poor option. However, if you know someone in Italy they can sign a document saying that you will stay with them when you arrive. That's what I did. You can find the document on one of the consulate sites. Not every consulate site has all the forms, so check around. I remember getting one of my ER forms from the consulate in Manila, Philippines; I think it had to do with giving the Miami consulate permission to mail my passport. Welcome to Italy.

Good luck.


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## PumpinFe

Mozella said:


> By the way, if you import household goods, you can do so tax free if you become a resident. I made such a declaration but, unlike my real estate, nobody followed up on my household goods shipment.


Thank you. Appreciate your telling of your story. Let me ask a question that is off topic, since you mentioned it - you found it cheaper to import household goods (furniture, I am assuming) then to buy them over there? And what did you mean by nobody followed up on your household goods shipment? The shipping company delivered the cargo right to your door and you didnt have to talk to anyone in authority to tell them what was in the cargo, if they were brand new or used, or the amount ...etc?


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## Mozella

PumpinFe said:


> Thank you. Appreciate your telling of your story. Let me ask a question that is off topic, since you mentioned it - you found it cheaper to import household goods (furniture, I am assuming) then to buy them over there? And what did you mean by nobody followed up on your household goods shipment? The shipping company delivered the cargo right to your door and you didnt have to talk to anyone in authority to tell them what was in the cargo, if they were brand new or used, or the amount ...etc?


Oh no.............. Don't get the the idea that you can comfortably sneak anything by Italian customs or that they aren't interested in what you import. They want to know about EVERYTHING.

What I meant is that (unlike the situation with my house purchase) nobody from the taxing authority descended upon me 18 months after the fact, with the full force of the government threatening me with severe penalties unless I appeared at a hearing ready to prove that my household goods were properly imported. 

My wife and I imported a 20 foot container with personal goods including a few special pieces of antique furniture, lots of clothing, used photo and computer equipment (dual voltage), garden tools, automotive tools, BBQ grill, lamps, bedding, towels, etc. Plus all sorts of little things which make a home a home like our Persian carpets. We didn't ship a lot of furniture because we didn't know what kind of house (or apartment) we were going to buy. Had we known, we would have shipped a 40 footer with more furniture. Of course you don't want to ship 115 volt 60hz electrical appliances. But you certainly want to ship a lot of clothing. Off the rack clothing is very expensive and, for women, often carries the idea of "bling" to new heights. If you're a Land's End, Eddie Bauer, L.L. Bean sort of person, shop before you move.

Wine is the only thing which is less expensive and/or better than the stuff we owned in the United States; i.e. don't bring wine but bring everything else. Some things are frightfully more expensive in Italy. Plus, if you are a ............ um .......... let's say ...... "full sized" man like me, you won't find suitable clothing in Italy, especially off the rack casual clothing. So if you are really moving to Italy, as opposed to just visiting, shipping a container is well worth it. A container full of only your stuff (as opposed to a shared container load) has many advantages and isn't really very expensive.

I hired a U.S. company (AMP Shipping International) to deliver a container to my house in the U.S. where I loaded it (using a locally hired crew) during the free waiting time, two hours if I recall correctly. They sent it to Genoa where it was handed off to an Italian company (Bolliger SPA). They cleared the goods through customs, put the goods in storage, and delivered everything to my house when I was ready, about 6 weeks later.

Bolliger was absolutely perfect and I would use them again. They guided me through the goods declaration process and, because they are very familiar with Italian customs, avoided a bond connected with any potential tax liability; i.e. they cleared the goods duty free based on my deceleration. I've read that some U.S. based companies have made a real mess of this process for some of their customers. I would highly recommend an Italian company handle your goods on this end. Of course, dealing with a U.S. company in the States made sense too. Using two different companies, each working on their home turf, was painless and, in retrospect, a wiser choice than I could have imagined. 

Our stuff was delivered to our house at the exact time we requested without ANY damage at all and placed in various rooms as we specified, all in good cheer and with a smile. I couldn't have been more satisfied with Bolliger.


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## PumpinFe

Mozella said:


> Oh no.............. Don't get the the idea that you can comfortably sneak anything by Italian customs or that they aren't interested in what you import. They want to know about EVERYTHING.


Well, l dont plan on sneaking drugs/narcotics into the country. LOL. However i believe household goods are tax free only if they are used and not brand new? I have heard that furniture is ridiculously expensive over there, so my plan is the buy brand new here and ship them over. In your case the custom didnt even question the declaration you made on ur entire shipment, so I am thinking I could declare the furniture to be "used" even though they are brand new. What I am planning on "sneaking" in is that since I am a big fan of Indian and Thai curries, all the exotic spices, fish sauces etc I would imagine would be difficult to find in Italy, so.... LOL You think it would be a problem?
I am in Canada so not sure if the company you mentioned has an office here but i will definitely check it out.


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## NickZ

All the controls would be done at the port. I had a fair bit of camera gear and had to submit a statement it was for personal use and not resale.

Remember it's most likely your new home will be smaller then you expect. You risk having things not fit.

On clothing a lot depends on what and how you buy. You can't walk into wallmart and buy at every day low prices. But the twice annual major sales can be very cheap. There are outlets. 

Now if you want sneakers and sweats it gets expensive. Converse chucks are like 3x the North American price. 

Bigger issue might be sizes. The further you are from Italian average the harder things get.

For Italian citizens the consulate provides custom clearance. You could ask if they would do the same for you.


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## Mozella

PumpinFe said:


> Well, l dont plan on sneaking drugs/narcotics into the country. LOL. However i believe household goods are tax free only if they are used and not brand new? I have heard that furniture is ridiculously expensive over there, so my plan is the buy brand new here and ship them over. In your case the custom didnt even question the declaration you made on ur entire shipment, so I am thinking I could declare the furniture to be "used" even though they are brand new. What I am planning on "sneaking" in is that since I am a big fan of Indian and Thai curries, all the exotic spices, fish sauces etc I would imagine would be difficult to find in Italy, so.... LOL You think it would be a problem?
> I am in Canada so not sure if the company you mentioned has an office here but i will definitely check it out.


I'm not sure what "used" means, but I suspect if you unpack any furniture then it will be "used" and if you don't resell anything in Italy, you'll be fine. Shipping 50 brand cameras in factory boxes would be something else. Just use good judgement.

The U.S. based shipping company was good, but I don't think they were anything special. I would certainly deal with a Canadian company on the departure end if I were you. By the way, I first contacted regular "moving" companies and quickly gave up. They were happy to take my money (a lot of it) but it became clear they were as clueless as I was and, in the end, were going to charge a lot of money for doing something I could do with a few Emails and a phone call or two. A shipping company specializing in international cargo containers is the place to start. 

The key to my particularly smooth move was Bolliger, the Italian end. I contacted them via the Internet and handled everything by Email. I made out a declaration in detail, they condensed it (a LOT) and translated it into Italian for me. Then they filled out all the documentation for me, sent it to me, I signed it, and sent it back to them via FedEx. It was painless and all done without knowing a word of Italian. Putting them in touch with my U.S. shipper was easy because both companies hand-off shipments to each other all the time. It's part of their regular business.

I didn't have another worry about my shipment. Bolliger notified me after it cleared customs and was safely in storage. I told them my desired delivery date and they complied with my every wish. The service was literally perfect and totally done on automatic pilot. My friend has moved to and from Italy three times, using Bolliger each time, and his experience was also perfect. Perfect service, from reading the experiences of others, is not always the case with some moving companies, especially non-Italian ones.

I suppose the reason I'm raving so much about Bolliger's service is that nearly everything else having to do with our first three months after arrival was either chaotic, frustrating, time consuming, mysterious, and/or difficult; sometimes all of the above. 

For example, the clerk who issued my Codice Fiscale mixed up my first and last names; consequently, he issued the wrong code which I used on countless papers for the first month. Recovering from and correcting that nightmare was ........... well ........... a nightmare. 

Just getting a PdiS, applying for residency, purchasing a home, turning on utilities, buying a car, and all the things associated with moving is hard enough when things go perfectly. It will take all of your time and require a concentrated effort especially if you're in a hurry to be able to register a car. The last thing I wanted to do in the middle of all this was to drive to Genoa and argue with some customs guy or have to translate some customs form because the shipping company dropped the ball. Bolliger protected me from even the slightest worry. Does the Bolliger agent take the customs guy to lunch once a week and give him a nice case of wine at Christmas? I have no idea, but I'm quite sure a U.S. based company doesn't. Personal contact is very important in Italy. Who you know counts.


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## NickZ

Legally the goods need to be in your possession for I think one year. Not that they really check each item.


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## BBCWatcher

The Foreign Ministry says it's 6 months used for vehicles at least -- but don't import a vehicle, please -- so I don't think it's as long as 12 months for household goods. I haven't seen a specific time minimum -- just "used."

There is a 12 month minimum between household goods exemption claims, though (and practically speaking it's longer than that because of the way that rule is written). You can't "move" back and forth between Italy and some other country every 6 weeks, for example. That'd be a nice way to run an import business, but they thought of that one.

While customs fraud might be tempting, I wouldn't. One reason I wouldn't is the reason NickZ wisely mentioned which is that it's all too easy to bring too much to a (typically) smaller home. Considering that and the fact you've got household goods you're already living with, why would you buy _even more_? Sure, if there's a saucepan you want to buy because you need one now, go for it, cook some hamburgers (or whatever), enjoy it, then pack it up when you're ready to move. Otherwise, don't. The deal is a customs exemption to bring your used and familiar comforts from home, not to fill a home with new products from scratch.


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## PumpinFe

BBCWatcher said:


> . The deal is a customs exemption to bring your used and familiar comforts from home, not to fill a home with new products from scratch.


Thats the thing - I will be purchasing a house in Italy that is substantially larger than my current abode, and I need to furnish it from head to toe. If, say, it is a 5 bedroom house, then I would need 5 beds, 5 mattresses etc. etc., sofas, wardrobes, rugs... they all add up. So, I guess my question is, am I allowed to import a large container of new household items tax free for my own use? And any info on bringing in food items?
Thanks.


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## PumpinFe

Mozella said:


> Does the Bolliger agent take the customs guy to lunch once a week and give him a nice case of wine at Christmas? I have no idea, but I'm quite sure a U.S. based company doesn't. Personal contact is very important in Italy. Who you know counts.


LOL Bollinger it is then !

The reason I am asking all these questions, getting all the info i can is that when I finally get to start the ball rolling, I know exactly what I have to do.

I have never used an international shipping company before. I thought the forwarding company (US) would take care of the shipment from your house in the US to your house in Italy, and they just used their own partner in Italy. I didnt know you had to find your own way once the shipment arrived in Italy.

Did Bollinger unpack everything for you? Or they just left all the boxes in the living room?

Again, do you know anything regarding bringing in food items? Or I can just sneak them in in the container? LOL

As I have said in my other post, I am planning on purchasing a house which is substantially larger than my current home, so I need furnish it from head to toe (except electronics, electrical items of course). My plan is to rent a storage warehouse here and start buying things and storing them there and instruct the moving company to go there and pick them up. So, would the custom let the cargo in tax free when I declare I have 5 beds, 10 side tables, 5 mattresses, 3 sets of couches...etc. You know what I mean?


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## BBCWatcher

PumpinFe said:


> So, I guess my question is, am I allowed to import a large container of new household items tax free for my own use?


Obviously not. New is not used.



> And any info on bringing in food items?


Certainly no meat or dairy products, including derivative products such as pet food. (There's a narrow exception for medically necessary or similar products, e.g. a reasonable quantity of powdered infant formula to support travel.)

Other food items would be subject to import duty and/or inspection. They may or may not get through. Processed foods sealed in original factory packages in reasonable quantities are likely OK (albeit with duty). Food items are neither used household goods nor personal effects (e.g. clothing), so they would not enjoy any special duty exemption.


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## NickZ

PumpinFe said:


> I have never used an international shipping company before. I thought the forwarding company (US) would take care of the shipment from your house in the US to your house in Italy, and they just used their own partner in Italy. I didnt know you had to find your own way once the shipment arrived in Italy.


I think all the Canadian movers do this. They tend to part of an international partnership.

The more people you introduce into the deal the harder things are if a problem occurs.


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## NickZ

PumpinFe said:


> Again, do you know anything regarding bringing in food items? Or I can just sneak them in in the container? LOL
> 
> As I have said in my other post, I am planning on purchasing a house which is substantially larger than my current home, so I need furnish it from head to toe (except electronics, electrical items of course). My plan is to rent a storage warehouse here and start buying things and storing them there and instruct the moving company to go there and pick them up. So, would the custom let the cargo in tax free when I declare I have 5 beds, 10 side tables, 5 mattresses, 3 sets of couches...etc. You know what I mean?


The mover will have info on allowed items. 

What you're planning sounds penny wise pound foolish. You'll pay storage in Canada. Added shipping. It's unlikely you'll have found a home immediately. So that means more storage costs in Italy. Worse if it gets stuck in customs the port and the shipping company will start tacking on fees.

I also don't think you'll see the huge difference in prices that you seem to expect. Maybe the low end is cheaper but the more you move up the less the difference will be.

If you want compare ikea.ca to ikea.it. Virtuall the same items. Are the prices that far out of line? Enough to justify all the costs you'll incur?


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## Mozella

PumpinFe said:


> LOL Bollinger it is then !
> 
> The reason I am asking all these questions, getting all the info i can is that when I finally get to start the ball rolling, I know exactly what I have to do.
> 
> I have never used an international shipping company before. I thought the forwarding company (US) would take care of the shipment from your house in the US to your house in Italy, and they just used their own partner in Italy. I didnt know you had to find your own way once the shipment arrived in Italy.
> 
> Did Bollinger unpack everything for you? Or they just left all the boxes in the living room?
> 
> Again, do you know anything regarding bringing in food items? Or I can just sneak them in in the container? LOL
> 
> As I have said in my other post, I am planning on purchasing a house which is substantially larger than my current home, so I need furnish it from head to toe (except electronics, electrical items of course). My plan is to rent a storage warehouse here and start buying things and storing them there and instruct the moving company to go there and pick them up. So, would the custom let the cargo in tax free when I declare I have 5 beds, 10 side tables, 5 mattresses, 3 sets of couches...etc. You know what I mean?


There are many ways to skin the old cat but I only know the way I did it. Yes, a moving company can offer door-to-door service. But, do they have really a "partner" in Italy, or will they have to dig one up (as I did)? Are they making a shipment to Italy for the first time? What will happen when they screw things up because they really don't care all that much when they turn your goods over to some jake-leg outfit based in Naples operating out of the trunk of a car with Albanian license plates? Who knows? 

I used two shipping companies because that's what I needed; shipping. And I wanted to hire companies which were familiar operating on their home turf.

As I said before, it quickly became apparent that the moving companies I first contacted didn't know much more about delivering goods to Italy than I did. Plus they were prepared to charge me a lot of money and I wasn't at all sure they were offering good value for money. In addition, none of them gave me a very high level of confidence that they could pull it off smoothly. A moving company will (they claim) go to your storage spot, load your goods, take them to your home in Italy, unpack your boxes, and give you a sponge bath when it's all said and done if you're willing to pay for it. I wasn't; therefore, I saved many thousands of dollars by hiring my own local loading crew and unpacking my boxes myself after they were placed in the correct rooms at my own house. And I took a pass on the sponge bath; however, the moving guys and I did have a glass of wine when it was all over.

So, suit yourself. If you're willing to be your own local agent and hand-holder, you can hire the specialists as required. A shipping company, for example, is going to show up with a container on a truck and the driver will do absolutely nothing but stand there during the two hour waiting time while YOU load the boxes. A moving company, on the other hand, will do whatever you're willing to pay for including sweeping out your old house................... Full disclosure: I'm speculating about that sponge bath.

Most everyone on this forum coming to Italy has cleared customs only once, so I imagine anything we say about the feasibility of importing five brand new beds, for instance, would be pure speculation. I'm not sure you can find a "real" answer and I don't know what happens if an Italian customs inspection of your shipment reveals that you ............. um .................fudged the declaration or that you're importing food items in bulk.

By the way, the company I used is Bolliger, not Bollinger.


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## PumpinFe

Mozella said:


> By the way, the company I used is Bolliger, not Bollinger.


Do you know if your shipment was ever inspected? Did you declare the items you were bringing in to be "new" or "used"? Or you just put Persian Rug x 1, Bed x 2 etc without mentioning their condition?


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## Mozella

PumpinFe said:


> Do you know if your shipment was ever inspected? Did you declare the items you were bringing in to be "new" or "used"? Or you just put Persian Rug x 1, Bed x 2 etc without mentioning their condition?


Look................ I think it's time for me to bow out of this thread. It appears to me that you're trying to figure out just how risky it is for you to get around the import laws, and I prefer to not continue the discussion.

May I suggest that you do your best to comply with Italian laws and regulations. That's what I try to do, except for posted speed limits of course.


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## PumpinFe

Mozella said:


> It appears to me that you're trying to figure out just how risky it is for you to get around the import laws


LOL No, no, no. I wanted to know from other people's experiences how things are done in reality vs. on paper. Also, who wants to pay import tax when it is not needed or can be avoided, right? Someone else also answered earlier that all imported household goods have to be "used" or else there could be a tax.

Thanks again. I am getting in touch with Bolliger.


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