# FBAR/Taxes



## Sarahmoe

Hi,

I need some HELP!

I will try to make this brief. I( US citizen) married a German, 14 years ago when I moved to Germany. My husband works in Switzerland. He has banks accounts in both countries. I have never been employed, so I have never filed any taxes while living here , since that is what I read one of these tax sites? I/we have NOW received a letter from his Swiss bank asking me to fill out a W-9 and a FBAR (or newly titled: FinCEn Form 114) for years 2008-2012. My name "was" on his Swiss bank account, because of course, I am/was his wife.

Will we/I have to pay taxes/fines because of this? This was his money, which has been taxed already. What does this all mean? I am lost trying to figure it out. We had NO idea this existed until now!

What can you tell me?????
(This is my first time on here...)


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## Nononymous

Time to fire up Google and do some research!

The short version probably looks like this:

You were not required to file US tax returns all these years because you had no income so fell under the reporting threshold. (Assuming there was no interest income from investments etc.)

However, all along, you should have been sending in an FBAR report each year if the total value of all accounts with your name on them (joint or otherwise) exceeded $10,000. The FBAR report would list account numbers and high balances. The fines for not doing this look quite severe, but as this is an obscure law that very few people seemed to know about or comply with, there's not much evidence of non-criminals actually being fined. 

A few days ago FATCA came into effect, so now your Swiss and German banks will begin reporting this information to the IRS automatically if they know that you are a US person (note: you still have to file FBAR forms). The Swiss are particularly gun-shy after being busted so are proactively demanding that US clients also prove they're up to date on their FBAR forms.

The odds of your being fined are probably quite low, but that's just a guess. (And if you were fined, so what - can they collect the fines in Europe? They can't collect them in Canada.) You should not owe taxes, because the income is not yours. But it can get complex if your name is on retirement or investment accounts.

One solution is to get your name off the Swiss accounts, pronto. The bank may agree to that, or they may demand that you get caught up on those forms because your name was on it in the past. In which case your husband might want to move his money to another bank, in an account without your name on it. US spouses are poison right now, unfortunately, and some non-US spouses object strongly to having their financial data sent to the US government. You might want to structure your affairs so that the only joint account you hold is used for household expenses and stays under $10,000. But this requires a certain amount of trust in the marriage!


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## Sarahmoe

Thanks for the information and reply. How do they expect people to know about this?


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## Bevdeforges

OK, pretty much the same as what Nononymous has said, with the following additions:

FBARs are strictly informational filings. It's basically just a list of the foreign (i.e. non-US) accounts you have signature authority over. (I, for example, have to list the company account because I'm a check signer for our company here in France.) This is becoming a stock standard request by many national taxing authorities these days - and actually is not directly related to any income taxes you may or may not owe back in the US.

Living in Switzerland you are, indeed, exposed and the simplest thing might be to just give the bank(s) their W9 form and file the bloody FBARs in arrears and then going forward each year. It's not really a big deal if you file an FBAR but don't file an income tax form because there are LOADS of people out there in the same situation.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Sarahmoe

Thanks. it gets tricky, because he works in Switzerland, we live in Germany, and he has accounts in both countries. All of this info has brought down my worry/stress level.


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## Nononymous

Sarahmoe said:


> Thanks for the information and reply. How do they expect people to know about this?


Obviously, many don't. But the US government has somewhat covered itself by putting that little note on the back page of your passport, which includes a link to IRS Publication 54, which mentions FBAR.


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## Nononymous

Sarahmoe said:


> Thanks. it gets tricky, because he works in Switzerland, we live in Germany, and he has accounts in both countries. All of this info has brought down my worry/stress level.


Just be certain that your husband is aware that if you get caught up on the FBARs, he's handing over his personal data to the US government. He may care, he may not. Likely no big deal, but some non-US spouses (like my wife) object rather violently to this idea, on principle.


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## Nononymous

Another point to remember, if you do file, is that these are for information purposes only and are not verified. If it's a pain to find records for a given year, do a ballpark estimate of the high balance, then add a bit, and apply an average exchange rate. Don't spend weeks requesting old statements.


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## Bevdeforges

Nononymous said:


> Just be certain that your husband is aware that if you get caught up on the FBARs, he's handing over his personal data to the US government. He may care, he may not. Likely no big deal, but some non-US spouses (like my wife) object rather violently to this idea, on principle.


There is also the "out" that you can list the account information under the section that asks for accounts where you are a joint owner with someone else. And where it asks for the name and SSN of the joint holder, just indicate "NRA" (non-resident alien) in both places.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Sarahmoe

Nononymous said:


> Another point to remember, if you do file, is that these are for information purposes only and are not verified. If it's a pain to find records for a given year, do a ballpark estimate of the high balance, then add a bit, and apply an average exchange rate. Don't spend weeks requesting old statements.


Here is another question: This account, are we suppose to give an amount? Will this be monthly or for the year? It is almost impossible, because this was the account his paycheck came into, so once a month it was above the limit and within days, part of it went to another German account and paid bills & etc... How does one figure the amount, because it was constantly changing?

Tonight, we are filling these out.


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## Bevdeforges

The amount they ask for on the FBAR report is the high balance in the account for the year. It can be the highest amount reported on your regular account statements (if you get, for example, monthly statements) but most folks make a good faith estimate. (Personally, I scan my monthly balances for the highest number and then add a couple thousand $ just to be sure. There is no penalty for over reporting.)
Cheers,
Bev


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## Whatsnext

Sarahmoe said:


> I( US citizen) married a German, 14 years ago when I moved to Germany. My husband works in Switzerland. He has banks accounts in both countries. I have never been employed, so I have never filed any taxes while living here , ..


Apart from the advise you have already received here, in moving forward, I'd just like to throw in the question whether you have considered renouncing your US citizenship, like many thousands have been doing for this exact reason, to avoid future enslavement by your country of birth that is running an unfair "citizenship based taxation" (CBT) system?

I am not suggesting that you take that step, but depending on your personal and financial situation, this is what others would do/have done.

The Internet is FULL of well educated views on this topic...in complete contrast to how FATCA is being "sold" to homeland Americans in main stream media (being a law to catch "tax cheats" so the average person in the US is manipulated into thinking anybody living outside of the US and not reporting back to the mothership is a "traitor" - how sad!).

<snip>


(PS: Why can't we post clickable links to this resource here, it seems banned...why?)


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## Bevdeforges

Renunciation is one of a whole variety of options available to US citizens overseas who are inconvenienced by the FATCA or other tax legislation that applies to them. In the past, we have been inundated by advocates of certain organizations that actively promote renunciation and tend to take over discussions that may or may not have been headed in that direction. If you need or want information about this option, just google the relevant terms and you'll get loads of links that will help you on your way. including the standard US expat groups trying to influence the government to modify the FATCA and other legislation.

It really depends on your personal circumstances whether it's worthwhile to consider renunciation. And it's not just a matter of taxes. Do take a look at our Expat Tax section here on the Expat Forums for more information: Expat Tax - Expat Forum For People Moving Overseas And Living Abroad There is a "sticky" post related to renunciation as a tax strategy that might be of interest.
Cheers,
Bev


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## wdf2

I have a related question. I just filed FBAR for 2010-2013. (Yes, I know, but I thought my tax service was doing it.) However, I made a mistake on the 2011 filing and need to amend it. The fincen site says "You will need to provide your Prior Report BSA Identifier after selecting the Amend box. Your Prior Report 
BSA Identifier was provided to you either through email or via the BSA E-Filing System’s secure messaging feature." The only identifier I have (so far) is from the email confirmation. It has the format FF14-00xxxxxx. When I paste this in the online form, it is rejected. So, how/when do I get the proper "Prior Report BSA Identifier"?


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## Bevdeforges

It really depends on the "seriousness" of the mistake, and to some extent, whether or not the mistake was rectified in the following years. Unless you "skipped" a major account altogether, or low-balled the balance by a few million or something, I'd just let it go. Starting July 1st of this year, they're going to be inundated with bank information that it will take them YEARS to plow through.

As long as the mistake you made could have been a simple error and not a willful attempt to hide something, it's really doubtful they are going to comb through prior FBAR filings at this point to find technical errors to nail you on.
Cheers,
Bev


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## wdf2

Thanks for the info. In fact, my mistake was that I didn't include two of the four accounts I held in 2011. Not millions, in fact not six figures, but it could be interpreted as "trying to hide something." I'd be happy to file the amendment, if only I knew how to get ahold of the necessary BSA Identifier.


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## Bevdeforges

Assuming you did report the account in 2012 and/or 2013, I wouldn't worry too much. Odds are at this point that they won't really spend much time looking at back filings unless they find "something" on your income tax filings that suggests nefarious intent.
Cheers,
Bev


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