# Where next.......?



## Clic Clac

I want to move to France!

You know the one we saw on TV back home with the chateaus, big red-tiled roofs, the markets, sunshine.......

As regular followers will know, my plans change on a weekly basis at the moment! 

When you have little money, you have few choices - and often they are not the choices 

you would like......

I came here with £3K, and even less French, and have lasted 4 years to date. 

Admittedly some months have been hell, especially the first winter putting in days which saw me leave home at 5.30am and return on foot at 11pm, in order to collect a pittance at the end of the month.

Anyway, I'm still here & as Winston Churchill said "If you are going through Hell, keep going." :boxing:

I'm expecting a few quid in the next couple of months and I must use some of it to escape this dump & the bleak East in general.

I'm looking at the Bordeaux - Toulouse area, but have just realised that if I live in the middle then neither is an easy commute!

It will only be another-boring-expat-English-teacher business & I'm sure there are already plenty around there, but I have other internet related plans.

I'm going to read-up on the areas for a month & then visit & start doing a few reccys. 


ps Fletch: Any idea what the fishing is like around there? (sea & freshwater.)


----------



## Gypsycob

Oh, I love adventures!

I am no use to you whatsoever, except to offer encouragement and support as you set off on your next adventure.

I have no doubt that you will make the very best of every opportunity; you have a great work ethic and a positive outlook, know when to ask for help and you keep your options open.

I look forward to following your plans and discoveries!!

Gypsycob x


----------



## Clic Clac

Thanks Gc.

Never a dull moment over the last 15 years but most of them have been of a downward nature. Had my last business wiped out by a business landlord who suddenly turned.

That led to me finally jumping on the Eurostar for a blind date  & I now have "my little froggie" who is standing here waving back at the Welcome :welcome: logo lol.

So, I guess things happen for a reason. He's the best thing ever & is so polite he even says 'Au Revoir' when we walk past a pile of doggy-does on the pavement lol. 

Quick trip back to the UK is planned as I have't seen my few remaining friends for 2 years & some of them are 'getting on a bit' - then we hit the road.

Stay tuned to this adventure channel...... :ranger:


ps. I've just discovered that Google translate will pronounce it for you. His face is a picture when I put in "Bonjour petit ****., ça va?"


----------



## DejW

Hi Cliccy!

Good luck whatever you do. We always appreciate your posts here.

Keep us informed of your progress. Life is full of "learning experiences", non?

DejW


----------



## 95995

I believe you are considering Bordeaux and Toulouse. Bordeaux is, from all reports, really on the up and up, with lots of new business relocating. They have made massive investments in infrastructure (expect local taxes to reflect that). Toulouse has always been a vibrant city and, of course, you have Airbus workers and lots of overseas students. I would say, though, that both cities likely have a surfeit of language schools. That said, if I had to choose between the two, it would be Bordeaux, simply because it is moving forwards (and with businesses relocating there may be some additional opportunities), whilst IMHO Toulouse is to some extent resting on its laurels. Be aware, though, that there are lots of English speakers in the Bordeaux area and surrounds (including bilingual French/Anglos). Of course, accommodation and living costs might limit the extent to which you are able to choose.

Anyway, good luck.


----------



## Clic Clac

EverHopeful said:


> I believe you are considering Bordeaux and Toulouse. Bordeaux is, from all reports, really on the up and up, with lots of new business relocating. They have made massive investments in infrastructure (expect local taxes to reflect that). Toulouse has always been a vibrant city and, of course, you have Airbus workers and lots of overseas students. I would say, though, that both cities likely have a surfeit of language schools. That said, if I had to choose between the two, it would be Bordeaux, simply because it is moving forwards (and with businesses relocating there may be some additional opportunities), whilst IMHO Toulouse is to some extent resting on its laurels. Be aware, though, that there are lots of English speakers in the Bordeaux area and surrounds (including bilingual French/Anglos). Of course, accommodation and living costs might limit the extent to which you are able to choose.
> 
> Anyway, good luck.


Thanks EH,

I'm certainly planing to 'go west young man', with Charente as the northerly prospect, but needing to feed off a big town.

Interesting thoughts - I've had Bordeaux in my head for a while - probably due to looking at the name on the labels  - but my initial look at the map brought Toulouse into the frame.

The fact that there are already language schools there suggests that there is a market. Most schools seem very flexible in that they give out work to 'Independents' & I'm only looking at outside work as bread & butter until the online side picks up.

Tried to 'Thank You' DejW but it seems I need to 'share it around more first'.
That brings us back to the Bordeaux Girls. Don't tell the missus.


----------



## Gypsycob

Clic Clac said:


> Thanks Gc.
> 
> Never a dull moment over the last 15 years but most of them have been of a downward nature. Had my last business wiped out by a business landlord who suddenly turned.
> 
> That led to me finally jumping on the Eurostar for a blind date  & I now have "my little froggie" who is standing here waving back at the Welcome :welcome: logo lol.
> 
> So, I guess things happen for a reason. He's the best thing ever.
> 
> Stay tuned to this adventure channel...... :ranger:


I find 'dull' teaches you nothing; best to have a roller coaster adventure and make the best of every opportunity and in the wise words of the Pythons, "always look on the bright side of life" (feel free to follow with "Da da, da da da da da da"!!).

I will eagerly stay tuned!!

GC x


----------



## DejW

...and never get cross? eh?

D



Gypsycob said:


> I find 'dull' teaches you nothing; best to have a roller coaster adventure and make the best of every opportunity and in the wise words of the Pythons, "always look on the bright side of life" (feel free to follow with "Da da, da da da da da da"!!).
> 
> I will eagerly stay tuned!!
> 
> GC x


----------



## Clic Clac

Plugtuner said:


> I envy your adventurous spirit! I think Bordeaux is a good choice as well, but to each their own.


Thanks Pt,

You have reminded me of another 'adventure' back in'86.

I walked into the Greyhound station in Miami and asked for a single on the next bus.

"The next bus to where?" asked the bemused ticket clerk.

"To wherever the next bus is heading "

'New York'

"Fine, I'll hop off at Lake Worth, it sounds nice." :fingerscrossed:


----------



## Gypsycob

DejW said:


> ...and never get cross? eh?
> 
> D


:sing:
Some things in life are bad,
They can really make you mad.
Other things just make you swear and curse.
When you're chewing on life's gristle.
Don't grumble, give a whistle,
And this'll help things turn out for the best...
And...


GC the :hippie:


----------



## Clic Clac

EverHopeful said:


> Of course, accommodation and living costs might limit the extent to which you are able to choose.
> 
> Anyway, good luck.


How do you fancy a new 'neighbour' EH? 

Maison 3 pièces 100 m² Locations Pyrénées-Atlantiques - leboncoin.fr

I saw this one on LBC and can't believe it's only 12 euro/month more than we pay for our lovely hovel. :confused2:


----------



## 95995

Looks well maintained, but I think it would be difficult and expensive to heat in winter, despite the double glazing. Where would you work whilst setting up your online business (this is a pretty long way out)? BTW, the garden is not enclosed and you have a little boy. 

But yes, the rent is reasonable - because it's remote.


----------



## Clic Clac

EverHopeful said:


> Looks well maintained, but I think it would be difficult and expensive to heat in winter, despite the double glazing. Where would you work whilst setting up your online business (this is a pretty long way out)? BTW, the garden is not enclosed and you have a little boy.
> 
> But yes, the rent is reasonable - because it's remote.


I was just joking, although it looks within easy strike of Pau on the map.

We're going to do a 'reccy' of the Charente/ Bordeaux area in a few weeks to try and narrow down our search area, but there are a lot of interesting places available.

I'm looking to fix-up some internet work before we move.

Will Mme be eligible to 'follow me' to my new work & claim chomage?
She has a CDI at the moment. We live together but aren't married or PACSed.


----------



## Clic Clac

Clic Clac said:


> - I've had Bordeaux in my head for a while - probably due to looking at the name on the labels


I've just returned to update this thread & on reading had a few chuckles.

We're looking at places way-out-west with a view to buying outright a place with four good walls and a roof. Habitable on a basic level & renovating when we can, with the benefit of being mortgage-free & property taxes being less than a quarter of what we pay in the UK.

Around Cognac has always held an interest. I've never been, and again it might be from reading the labels on too many bottles.


----------



## Poloss

I'll be watching this space with great interest, CC!

We should be moving into our new home sweet home mid April if the notaire does his job right.
Our 16th official French home in 35 years ...


----------



## Clic Clac

Poloss said:


> I'll be watching this space with great interest, CC!
> 
> We should be moving into our new home sweet home mid April if the notaire does his job right.
> Our 16th official French home in 35 years ...


Yes, never a dull moment at Clicky Towers.

Think the next house will be about my 28th in 55 years. 
I had hoped it would be the final move as I want my son to be settled.
We won't have enough for the 'dream home', merely our own place, which will make a nice change from buying everyone else's home for them.


----------



## Clic Clac

Poloss said:


> I'll be watching this space with great interest, CC!
> 
> We should be moving into our new home sweet home mid April if the notaire does his job right.
> Our 16th official French home in 35 years ...


Hopefully you are fully installed by now.
If so, how long did completion take following signing of the PDV?
OH is waiting for the proceeds from her inherited house & the notaire has said it will take 3 months to complete.


----------



## DejW

Hi Clicky!

It's normally 3 months between the 2 signings. The notaire may be able to speed things up, but a lot depends on the necessary replies from maires, etc. I did hear of a son of a notaire doing the two signings on the same day......but that's not for normal people such as you and me.

Wot, me normal?

DejW


----------



## Poloss

Clic Clac said:


> Hopefully you are fully installed by now.
> If so, how long did completion take following signing of the PDV?
> OH is waiting for the proceeds from her inherited house & the notaire has said it will take 3 months to complete.


We don't have the keys to the house until Tuesday 24, but we are moving our belongings massively into the "cabanon" and other dependencies.

Timescale pretty fast because we didn't do a Promesse de Vente with suspensive clauses by common accord with the sellers.
First contact with the notaire on St Valentine's Day 
Dossier administrative completed and Projet de Vente signed last Monday.
10 days retractation run from 10 to 20 April and we sign 24th April - 10 weeks in all.

There are many factors which can lengthen the transaction;
for example there are a legion of official bodies who have a "droit de préemption" on any property which goes up for sale.
This can be the SAFER, ministry of defence, ONF, etc and the whole pile of local authorities starting from the commune to the community of communes, the département and why not the region if you're particularly unlucky. Bigger towns take longer, some communes are notoriously slow.
Another bit of paperwork that the notaire has to obtain is a certificate proving that the property is free of mortgage/loan (levée d'hypothèque).

3 months is pretty rapid.
I have a friend who bought a farming property 3 years ago and is still waiting; it's part of an inheritance and 2 of the heritors have died during the process, meaning that their parts have to be transmitted to their inheritors ... with all the complications that accompany


----------



## Clic Clac

I'm busy drawing up plans for my property recce next month.
'Narrowed' it down to this chunk of France.
Various reasons, and a bit of guess-work as I've never visited.

Looking at a northerly point of line across from La Rochelle, with an easterly point of Bergerac in the south.

Main points to bear in mind:

1) School for a 6 year old.
2) Employment for 'Madame'.
3) Climate.
4) Local property prices.

The very south of Deux Sevres seems to have the best property value, but not sure about the other points. Is anyone here in DS?


----------



## Clic Clac

Today is D-Day+14 before I commence *Clicky On Tour*....(_normalement_).

I've been busy with a major de-clutter, and selling a lot of things before the hoped-for move.

Before giving the full itinerary I'll just pop my tin-hat on, in case Smeggie is about. eep:

Have tent will travel. I'm travelling light around the campsites, and doing my recce missions alone, while Mme holds the fort back here & continues the online search for places.

I've got a bag full of prospects, and that's only the last week's entries on LeBonCoin. Hopefully it doesn't turn into Carry On Camping. 

I need to find places which have been sat a while & make offers on half a dozen, if I can find enough suitable ones. Hopefully this will stretch our meager budget a bit further.

Time is against us as we're using savings to live here at the moment. Whilst 'Buy in haste, repent at leisure' could be said, it's really a free bet, as another 2 years of renting will see us back to zero anyway, so a rough 4 walls & a roof will still be a better deal.

If I see a For Sale sign outside the house & simply knock on the door, am I able to circumvent the Agents fees?

Any thoughts or little negotiating phrases you can offer will be much appreciated.


----------



## berkinet

Clic Clac said:


> ...If I see a For Sale sign outside the house & simply knock on the door, am I able to circumvent the Agents fees?...


The answer is... *Yes*. *But*, for that very reason you are unlikely to see For Sale signs on owner occupied properties. French real-estate listings are always non-exclusive. The seller has the right to list with as many agents as they choose, and also maintains the right to sell directly without paying a sales commission. 

So, always seeking a bargain, any decent french person seeing a For Sale sign on a property will immediately try to negotiate with the occupant. To avoid that, the real-estate agents do not usually post such signs. If you do see a For Sale sign, the property is typically vacant or occupied by a renter.

On the other hand, I would encourage your plan to make several offers. If for no other reason than to get comfortable with the process. You can always back-out and you will get a feel for the market.

One bit of wisdom (or myth) that was passed on to us was that the french tend to list a property at about 30% over what they think the real value is, and hope to snag a live one. So, they are less likely to accept offers much below the asking price for the first year. At that point, they see ready to accept offers near what they feel the true value is. Only in the third are they willing to go below that. Our experience more-or-less supports that.

BTW, I would suggest you ignore "wisdom" like that above and make whatever offer you wish. Just ignore the complaints of the immobiler. We offered 30% below asking on a brand-new listing (over the agent's fierce objections), and it was immediately accepted. We learned (much) later the seller was in deep debt to the tax authorities and needed cash fast. Also turns out we were the first (and only people) to see the house and our's was the first offer.

And, one more thing. As evidenced by the wisdom/myth above, the french do not see to be in a great hurry to sell a property. We were amazed at the number of times we had to make an appointment to see a property... usually one or more days in advance. It seems lockboxes have not yet made their appearance here and you can only see the property when the owner is available -- which seems to be, not that often. It also means that often, the owner will be there while you look at the property. This can be good, if you have questions, or bad, if you want to get candid info from the real-estate agent.

Bon Courage


----------



## Clic Clac

Thanks for the advice Berkinet,

I'll mention the cheeky offer to Mme as she doesn't believe me.

That's exactly the unknown scenario that I said to her - well, in my case I said if the bank was about to foreclose.

Onwards & upwards. :fingerscrossed:


----------



## Bevdeforges

Let me add just a couple of caveats to what berkinet has said. It may boil down to a difference in customs from one region to another, but here in the Paris region there do see to be a few differences.

If the For Sale sign on the property is one posted by the agency (Century 21 seems to do that quite a bit around here - but more and more of the local agencies are posting signs, too), then you won't be able to avoid the agent's fee (and the phone number on the sign will be that of the agency).

OTOH, I've seen a house here with more than one agency sign or (even better) with an agency sign AND a hand lettered sign giving a mobile number that is probably that of the owner (but maybe not).

And, in talking to a few folks I know here who have sold their houses, there does appear to be a new custom of giving an agency an "exclusive" on selling the house for some period of time (six weeks to three months from what I can tell). If the agency gets you an offer for the full asking price, you have to sell, but offers less than the asking price can be negotiated or refused. Once the exclusive period runs out, it's anything-goes for other agencies or for the seller to sell the place on their own. No idea how common this is outside the Paris area.
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## suein56

Bev wrote : ..vthere does appear to be a new custom of giving an agency an "exclusive" on selling the house for some period of time.
Once the exclusive period runs out, it's anything-goes for other agencies or for the seller to sell the place on their own. No idea how common this is outside the Paris area.


Very common where we live .. it is almost the norm as we are in a holiday area so a lot of holiday homes are for sale alongside houses lived in all year long - and that mostly by retirées.

You would be laughed at hereabouts if you made an offer at 30% below the asking price as houses usually sell quickly or fairly quickly, mostly depending on the season.


----------



## 512346

suein56 said:


> Bev wrote : ..vthere does appear to be a new custom of giving an agency an "exclusive" on selling the house for some period of time.
> Once the exclusive period runs out, it's anything-goes for other agencies or for the seller to sell the place on their own. No idea how common this is outside the Paris area.
> 
> 
> Very common where we live .. it is almost the norm as we are in a holiday area so a lot of holiday homes are for sale alongside houses lived in all year long - and that mostly by retirées.
> 
> You would be laughed at hereabouts if you made an offer at 30% below the asking price as houses usually sell quickly or fairly quickly, mostly depending on the season.



Let them laugh.

You would be mad to offer anything but what a French house is worth. You offer what you like. 30,40,50 % below the asking price no probs.

Don't carry the debt.

Around here houses sell within minutes. But they don't sell at there asking price. 

Estate agents, particuliers try there luck on Le bon coin, but they sell nothing near their advertised value. 

The French are not stupid. Expat buyers yes.


----------



## 95995

It totally depends on the local real estate market, the location, the condition of the building, how long it has been on the market. But it seems ClicClac is looking for something that has been on the market for a long time so one would expect to be able to offer well below the asking price. But remember, he will in any case likely be left with little in the way of funds in order to make the place liveable (essential IMO with a young child in to).

Can't remember where he is looking, but I assume in areas where prices are low. Don't know what they plan to do for work either.


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac - what about a 2 bed apartment? Take a look at this (sent to me by a cousin) in Vitrolles, Bouches du Rhone https://www.leboncoin.fr/vi/1421229037.htm/. Public transport, sunshine and a reasonable chance of finding work. It's ground floor, at its lowest point 2m above ground level, but it looks quite liveable (also advertised on FB marketplace) and no agent's fees.

The price would at first glance seem reasonable, otherwise my cousin (and her cousin also) would not have shared it. And of course, you always offer lower, but probable not much lower in this area (perhaps 2-3000 Euros lower, maybe a bit less, but not so low that the owner won't deal with you - market is fairly tight there.


----------



## Clic Clac

Thanks for the input everyone.

I'm usually laughed at. I remember in 1988 when everyone used to laugh in the local pub when my mobile phone started to ring. And now...

I work on the principle that you can always go up - but you can't come back down, just try not to cut too close that the owner feels insulted.

EH - nice place. Unfortunately it's got a '1' in front of our budget. 
I'm looking for something advertised for c.40k. As I said 4 walls and a good roof.
As we'll be mortgage/rent free & much lower property charges we'll use that money to gradually do up the place.

We're looking west/south west.

I aim to be independent for work & have just started a business over here aimed at France. A bit of import/export.  mf.


----------



## EuroTrash

Clic Clac said:


> I'm looking for something advertised for c.40k. As I said 4 walls and a good roof.
> As we'll be mortgage/rent free & much lower property charges we'll use that money to gradually do up the place.


If property taxes are a biggie, do make absolutely sure exactly what they are before you commit. You certainly can't assume that buying a cheap place = cheap taxes, in fact sometimes it is the reverse, the property is cheap to compensate for the high taxes and tempt buyers or nobody would look at it twice.


----------



## BaguetteMan

ClicClac, if the mods don't mind, I'd recommend you include English-speaking estate agents Leggett in your research. They are on the web as frenchestateagents dot com. They have property (and local representatives) throughout France including within your budget in the west/southwest of France. Some are ruins, others needing renovations to one degree or another. As they are English-speaking, it might of help for you to be able to converse in English when you are trying to find out how long a property has been on the market etc. Best of luck with your search and please keep us informed about your progress.

edit: Just to say I have no connection whatsoever with Leggetts.


----------



## EuroTrash

BaguetteMan said:


> As they are English-speaking, it might of help for you to be able to converse in English when you are trying to find out how long a property has been on the market etc.


I thought Mrs CC is French?
Call me cynical but I find it hard to believe that Leggetts or any other firm focusing on the expat niche actually offers best hard value for money...


----------



## 512346

BaguetteMan said:


> ClicClac, if the mods don't mind, I'd recommend you include English-speaking estate agents Leggett in your research. They are on the web as frenchestateagents dot com. They have property (and local representatives) throughout France including within your budget in the west/southwest of France. Some are ruins, others needing renovations to one degree or another. As they are English-speaking, it might of help for you to be able to converse in English when you are trying to find out how long a property has been on the market etc. Best of luck with your search and please keep us informed about your progress.
> 
> edit: Just to say I have no connection whatsoever with Leggetts.


You would have to be blind stupid to go anywhere near Legetts 

Both to buy a house from and work for. 

Horrible company.


----------



## Clic Clac

Smeg said:


> You would have to be blind stupid to go anywhere near Legetts
> 
> Both to buy a house from and work for.
> 
> Horrible company.


Might just use them to see their faces when I offer 70% then Smeg.


----------



## EuroTrash

Clic Clac said:


> Time is against us as we're using savings to live here at the moment.





Clic Clac said:


> I aim to be independent for work & have just started a business over here aimed at France. A bit of import/export.  mf.


You do scare me, Clic Clac. Or maybe I envy your attitude 

I would be thinking, well if my business isn't earning me enough to live on in the UK, how will it keep me fed in France where business overheads are higher; and why will my savings, that would run out if I stayed in the UK, magically last for longer in France? And I would put employment prospects very high on my list of deal-breakers, even if it meant paying a bit more for the house.


----------



## Clic Clac

EuroTrash said:


> You do scare me, Clic Clac. Or maybe I envy your attitude
> 
> I would be thinking, well if my business isn't earning me enough to live on in the UK, how will it keep me fed in France where business overheads are higher; and why will my savings, that would run out if I stayed in the UK, magically last for longer in France? And I would put employment prospects very high on my list of deal-breakers, even if it meant paying a bit more for the house.


Hello ET,

Thanks for worrying, but I'm what's known as one of life's survivors.
After what I've had in the past 10 years, it really can't be worse over there - unless it's a bench in the park.

You were correct earlier, Mrs CC is indeed French, but she's not coming over with me on this trip.

I have enough French to get along, and previously won a heated argument with a garage-owner, and got jobs after interviews in French.

I'm topping up on my Agent-lingo:

"Elle est trop chère, le toit est cassé, elle est bonne mais vos honoraires sont trop chers" 

Regarding the finances, the rent/mortgage will be zero; the tax d'habitation will be paid for this year by the vendor; the taxe foncière is expected to be about 200€.

Mme always finds a job & we will have a little in reserve to tide us through this year.
If the worst really did happen, I have guaranteed work with my friend's business back over here.

But something always turns up...

The only worry I actually have is pulling my son out of school here, because he is doing so well there. That's the one that keeps me awake, as everything is aimed at his future prospects.


----------



## Clic Clac

Had a quick squint on 'Leggett's'.

Certainly plenty of ruins on there in our price range...

Had a quick chuckle with their buyer's advice too:

"You should feel committed to a house prior to making an offer on it, and *only ever offer on one property at a time. Once you have made an offer you should stop viewing other properties.
*
Discuss your offer with your Leggett Immobilier agent, *they may have knowledge on whether the offer is likely to be viable.*

*Your Leggett Immobilier agent will negotiate on your behalf*. Leggett Immobilier agents are trained in negotiation and are supported by an experienced sales team at head office. Your agent will keep you informed on negotiations as they progress.

At this stage, your Leggett Immobilier Agent *may ask you to sign* an 'offre d'achat' to show your commitment to purchase the property."


Wonder what they'll say when I offer on all 6 that I like?

I'll tell them you made me do it Smeggie.  :cheer2:


----------



## suein56

Click Clack wrote : Wonder what they'll say when I offer on all 6 that I like?

Well legally you have 10 days when you able to withdraw your offer without penalty ..


----------



## berkinet

suein56 said:


> Click Clack wrote : *Wonder what they'll say *when I offer on all 6 that I like?
> 
> Well legally you have 10 days when you able to withdraw your offer without penalty ..


Well, yes that is true and is the basis for making *any* (and as many) fair and reasonable (or even slightly unfair or unreasonable) offer(s). 

However, as to what Leggets would say... Based on Clic Clac's earlier post from the Leggets web site, I read that statement as a means to reducing the amount of work they have to do to make a sale. So, I'd say they would be, at best, unhappy and displeased and would try to intimidate the potential buyer into doing it their way, or going off to some other immoblier.


----------



## EuroTrash

berkinet said:


> However, as to what Leggets would say... Based on Clic Clac's earlier post from the Leggets web site, I read that statement as a means to reducing the amount of work they have to do to make a sale. So, I'd say they would be, at best, unhappy and displeased and would try to intimidate the potential buyer into doing it their way, or going off to some other immoblier.


You can make 6 offers but you can't force Leggets to pass all the offers on to the seller. In fact you will have no way of knowing if or when they have passed all or indeed any of the offers.


----------



## berkinet

EuroTrash said:


> ...you can't force Leggets to pass all the offers on to the seller. In fact you will have no way of knowing if or when they have passed all or indeed any of the offers.


I know very little about french real-estate law. But, I would be quite surprised if a licensed immoblier was not required to present any bona-fide offer they take.


----------



## EuroTrash

berkinet said:


> I know very little about french real-estate law. But, I would be quite surprised if a licensed immoblier was not required to present any bona-fide offer they take.


Neither do I ! but since Leggets make such a point of it, and since under French law accepting an offer is binding on the seller, they would probably argue that 6 offers are not bona fide and they will only deal with one at a time. Point being that they also act on behalf of the buyers and if, say, they passed on 6 offers to 6 sellers on the same day, and 4 of those accepted those offers, then by law those 4 properties would all have to be taken off the market while the buyer decides which to retract and which to follow up. It would be different if accepting an offer didn't put the vendor under obligation but it does, and vendors aren't going to take kindly to estate agents who mess them around by knowingly passing on offers that have at best a 1 in 6 chance of leading anywhere, are they.


----------



## 512346

Let's be CLEAR here. The average Brit person working as an 'estate agent' for Leggits used to work in Tescos or Poundland. They HAVE NO experience of the French property market. Brits move to France and realise that they have no chance of finding a proper job so they end selling their soul and work for this horrible company. 

I have done it before on here. I have found houses listed on Leg it (yes you should leg it) 10k, 20k , 30k...++++ more expensive than the same house advertised on French websites.

Stay clear of these muppets is Smegs advice.


----------



## DejW

Charity, dear Smeggie, Charity

I've no real experience with the people in question, except when they offered to sell my house in the Pyrénées for me. 

However, some of these UK based estate agents do offer something wanted by expats...first they do they whole business in English, very useful if you French is not good and are confronted by the 100+ pages of house purchase documents. They also smooth the way for bank accounts, loans, key handover, getting telephone, electricity etc. 

Clearly they are operating in a different market to French speaking Smeggies who know all the ins and outs of house purchase in France.

DejW


----------



## 512346

DejW said:


> Charity, dear Smeggie, Charity
> 
> I've no real experience with the people in question, except when they offered to sell my house in the Pyrénées for me.
> 
> However, some of these UK based estate agents do offer something wanted by expats...first they do they whole business in English, very useful if you French is not good and are confronted by the 100+ pages of house purchase documents. They also smooth the way for bank accounts, loans, key handover, getting telephone, electricity etc.
> 
> Clearly they are operating in a different market to French speaking Smeggies who know all the ins and outs of house purchase in France.
> 
> DejW


Their USP is that they speak French....ish.

Not quite sure it is worth paying 30k over the odds for a house because they speak French...ish.

A translator will cost you....60 Euros for a couple of hours to visit a house ???

Hire a translator !!!


----------



## baldilocks

Clic Clac said:


> Had a quick squint on 'Leggett's'.
> 
> Certainly plenty of ruins on there in our price range...
> 
> Had a quick chuckle with their buyer's advice too:
> 
> "You should feel committed to a house prior to making an offer on it, and *only ever offer on one property at a time. Once you have made an offer you should stop viewing other properties.
> *
> Discuss your offer with your Leggett Immobilier agent, *they may have knowledge on whether the offer is likely to be viable.*
> 
> *Your Leggett Immobilier agent will negotiate on your behalf*. Leggett Immobilier agents are trained in negotiation and are supported by an experienced sales team at head office. Your agent will keep you informed on negotiations as they progress.
> 
> At this stage, your Leggett Immobilier Agent *may ask you to sign* an 'offre d'achat' to show your commitment to purchase the property."
> 
> 
> Wonder what they'll say when I offer on all 6 that I like?
> 
> I'll tell them you made me do it Smeggie.  :cheer2:


Aren't they supposed to be acting for the seller? if so how can they negotiate on YOUR behalf?


----------



## berkinet

Smeg said:


> ...Not quite sure it is worth paying 30k over the odds for a house because they speak French...ish.


There is (probably) a middle ground between Legget and legging it in french on your own. Depending on where one is looking, it is common to find at least one english speaking _agent immoblier_ in an office. However, I would guess there is a fairly good correlation between english speaking agent availability and the price of the area.

Which brings up another point: As far as I know (I.e. this may have changed since we bought our home, and may also vary by area) there is no service for sharing listings (AKA Multiple Listing Service) between agencies in France. So, a seller will list with as many, or as few, agencies as they wish. Thus, no single agency will have access to everything. So, it behoves the buyer to visit a number of agencies. If you trust just one agency (Legget or otherwise), you will almost certainly not be seeing everything that is available.


----------



## Clic Clac

baldilocks said:


> Aren't they supposed to be acting for the seller? if so how can they negotiate on YOUR behalf?


Hi Baldi.

Thanks for the input.

Think they'll just negotiate on my behalf on the ones they've been stuck with for two years.


----------



## Poloss

Bought mine on "leboncoin" without agents. Been inside it for a week now, very happy.

If you make a written offer to the vendor or their agent, there's no 10 days "retractation period" - that's only when you get serious and go to the notaire & do a promesse d'achat.

First you can make a written offer style "déclaration sur l'honneur" then the vendors can adress you a written acceptation - if they accept...
There are set formulas for "offres d'achat" & "promesses d'achat" (not the same thing) on the internet, shop around, I did mine freehand on A4 foolscap - beware of terms like "je m'engage de manière irrevocable" etc if you're not sure. Please note that you can include a suspensive clause in your offre/promesse that if the vendor hasn't replied before (dd/mm/yyyy) your offer is dead.

Congrats for Glaziers 0 - 5 Saturday

You still shopping in the Deux Sèvres?

This post is sponsored by la Goudale beer & Sticky Fingers full album.


----------



## 95995

Hey Smeg, you have a budget of 40,000 so very little point going to a real estate agent (agency fees either built into the price or charged to the purchaser).

I think your plan is very risky for your son and your partner (as I recall she has previously experienced depression - you need to ensure that you buy something at least half-way habitable and where she can get to work easily and is not likely to feel isolated). 40,000 is a very low budget, esp since you currently have no real income.


----------



## 512346

EverHopeful said:


> Hey Smeg, you have a budget of 40,000 so very little point going to a real estate agent (agency fees either built into the price or charged to the purchaser).
> 
> I think your plan is very risky for your son and your partner (as I recall she has previously experienced depression - you need to ensure that you buy something at least half-way habitable and where she can get to work easily and is not likely to feel isolated). 40,000 is a very low budget, esp since you currently have no real income.



Hey Smeg what ? 

Is my OH depressed ?  I will have a word.

If I had 40k I would buy a car.


----------



## berkinet

EverHopeful said:


> Hey Smeg,...


I think you mixed up SMEG the commenter with Clic Clic the buyer


----------



## 95995

berkinet said:


> I think you mixed up SMEG the commenter with Clic Clic the buyer


Yep


----------



## Clic Clac

berkinet said:


> I think you mixed up SMEG the commenter with Clic Clic the buyer


Poor old Smeggie always gets it in the ear. 

EH - I appreciate it's not an ideal strategy, but there are sound, half decent places for 20k which will be what I've wasted in rent whilst being back over here.

I really live on fresh-air over here once the basics have been paid, and I have other factors in the equation like running a smallholding.

Have Faith mes amies. :hug:


----------



## Clic Clac

EuroTrash said:


> Neither do I ! but since Leggets make such a point of it, and since under French law accepting an offer is binding on the seller, they would probably argue that 6 offers are not bona fide and they will only deal with one at a time. Point being that they also act on behalf of the buyers and if, say, they passed on 6 offers to 6 sellers on the same day, and 4 of those accepted those offers, then by law those 4 properties would all have to be taken off the market while the buyer decides which to retract and which to follow up. It would be different if accepting an offer didn't put the vendor under obligation but it does, and vendors aren't going to take kindly to estate agents who mess them around by knowingly passing on offers that have at best a 1 in 6 chance of leading anywhere, are they.


Fair point, ET.

I hadn't realised that an offer was taken so seriously at such an early stage.
Perhaps I over-egged that one, but you get the idea.


----------



## Clic Clac

Poloss said:


> Bought mine on "leboncoin" without agents. Been inside it for a week now, very happy.
> 
> If you make a written offer to the vendor or their agent, there's no 10 days "retractation period" *- that's only when you get serious and go to the notaire & do a promesse d'achat.*
> 
> First you can make a written offer style "déclaration sur l'honneur" then the vendors can adress you a written acceptation - if they accept...
> There are set formulas for "offres d'achat" & "promesses d'achat" (not the same thing) on the internet, shop around, I did mine freehand on A4 foolscap - beware of terms like "je m'engage de manière irrevocable" etc if you're not sure. Please note that you can include a suspensive clause in your offre/promesse that if the vendor hasn't replied before (dd/mm/yyyy) your offer is dead.
> 
> Congrats for Glaziers 0 - 5 Saturday
> 
> You still shopping in the Deux Sèvres?
> 
> This post is sponsored by la Goudale beer & Sticky Fingers full album.


Hi Poloss.

Glad your move completed ok.

Thanks for the info. I'll draft up a couple of letters to take & run them by you all on here.

Re: the 'retraction period', I'm reading it two ways:

I think you mean 'don't worry, there isn't one' rather than 'be careful because you don't have one'. Could you clarify, please.

Bit lost with the last part. Deux-Sevres seems to be most affordable. Just have to see why by having a tour around.


----------



## EuroTrash

Clic Clac said:


> EH - I appreciate it's not an ideal strategy, but there are sound, half decent places for 20k which will be what I've wasted in rent whilst being back over here.


Although - at least when you pay rent in the UK, you get free healthcare thrown in. No doubt you have a cunning plan for qualifying for a carte vitale here, but it's not obvious.


----------



## Poloss

Clic Clac said:


> Re: the 'retraction period', I'm reading it two ways:
> 
> *I think you mean 'don't worry, there isn't one' rather than 'be careful because you don't have one'. Could you clarify, please.*
> 
> Bit lost with the last part. Deux-Sevres seems to be most affordable. Just have to see why by having a tour around.


The only legal 10-day retraction period that I know of is when you sign a promesse d'achat with the notaire. it's legally binding and if one party desists there are financial penalties. To guarantee the promesse, it's customary to depose 10% of the buying price with the notaire. There can be escape clauses included.

In so far as making a written offre d'achat you aren't committing yourself legally, until the vendor accepts, when you both sign a promesse de vente/offre d'achat. 
Can the agent immobilier do this or must it be a notaire?

A quoi vous engage une offre d'achat ?
L'offre d'achat, un acte juridique.
Les obligations de l'acquéreur.

and more - here:
https://www.pap.fr/acheteur/offre-achat/a-quoi-vous-engage-une-offre-d-achat/a7637

For the 0 - 5 Saturday, I mistook you for a Crystal Palace football supporter. I know there's one on the forum but my memory sometimes fails me...


----------



## Clic Clac

EuroTrash said:


> Although - at least when you pay rent in the UK, you get free healthcare thrown in. No doubt you have a cunning plan for qualifying for a carte vitale here, but it's not obvious.


Fear not ET. Cunning plan is indeed in hand...


----------



## Clic Clac

Poloss said:


> The only legal 10-day retraction period that I know of is when you sign a promesse d'achat with the notaire. it's legally binding and if one party desists there are financial penalties. To guarantee the promesse, it's customary to depose 10% of the buying price with the notaire. There can be escape clauses included.
> 
> In so far as making a written offre d'achat you aren't committing yourself legally, until the vendor accepts, when you both sign a promesse de vente/offre d'achat.
> Can the agent immobilier do this or must it be a notaire?
> 
> A quoi vous engage une offre d'achat ?
> L'offre d'achat, un acte juridique.
> Les obligations de l'acquéreur.
> 
> and more - here:
> https://www.pap.fr/acheteur/offre-achat/a-quoi-vous-engage-une-offre-d-achat/a7637
> 
> For the 0 - 5 Saturday, I mistook you for a Crystal Palace football supporter. I know there's one on the forum but my memory sometimes fails me...



How very dare you. Do I look like a Palace supporter? :shocked: 
Given up on football these days since big-business took over.

Anyway, :focus: interesting paragraph from your link:

"En réalité, très peu de vendeurs prennent la peine de se retourner contre les acquéreurs qui leur font faux bond. Non seulement les procédures sont longues et coûteuses mais surtout les candidats indélicats peuvent faire jouer leur droit de rétractation de dix jours à l'issue de la signature du compromis de vente ou de la promesse de vente."

Would still be a lot of hassle, so I think the bet way for me will be to make the offer with a very short deadline & let it expire after 48 hours.

Will be :juggle: as it is trying to do everything in a couple of weeks.


----------



## conky2

I am the only Crystal Palace supporter in the village Poloss.


----------



## baldilocks

conky2 said:


> I am the only Crystal Palace supporter in the village Poloss.


Are you looking for sympathy or congratulations?


----------



## Clic Clac

baldilocks said:


> Are you looking for sympathy or congratulations?


Think the first step to recovery is admitting that you have a problem. :help:


----------



## conky2

baldilocks said:


> Are you looking for sympathy or congratulations?


Neither. But i’ll take whatever you’re offering.....we need all the help we can get.


----------



## baldilocks

conky2 said:


> Neither. But i’ll take whatever you’re offering.....we need all the help we can get.


But you are living in the only area we really considered a possibility if we were to have moved to France. Instead we are living in Spain surrounded by mountains most about as high as yours but with a few higher. We were fed up living at sea level especially after living in the Andes - apart from the altitude and climate, the people are different as well.


----------



## conky2

baldilocks said:


> But you are living in the only area we really considered a possibility if we were to have moved to France. Instead we are living in Spain surrounded by mountains most about as high as yours but with a few higher. We were fed up living at sea level especially after living in the Andes - apart from the altitude and climate, the people are different as well.


I am in the northernmost part of the region which is more rolling than mountainous. Best described as wher the old provonces of the bourbonnais and berry meet, now the Allier / Cher.


----------



## Poloss

conky2 said:


> I am the only Crystal Palace supporter in the village Poloss.


Good Heavens.
I had a youthful leaning for Leicester; was somewhat taken aback at home thrashing.
I never strayed as far as Cp for a match; Fulham, QPR & Chelsea shed were within bicycle limits ...
My heart was swayed by the Olympique de Marseille a long while ago.

"On est en finale, on est en finale, on est, on est ..."


----------



## Clic Clac

So, D-Day +1 has arrived (got my - + mixed up last time ).

Still here in Blighty & had a major ding-dong this weekend.

My son came home from school on Friday with his spelling prize for words such as athlete, blackberry, playground and I was very impressed as he is still only five.
The worry of pulling him out of school hit me again & I got 'cold feet' for the move.

Mme hit the roof, but after a couple of days cooling off she now wants us to move back to Les Vosges. 

She thinks being back on familiar turf will be better, as she knows she can commute to Nancy & get a job easily. She knows the nice villages & has a few friends in the area.

We have seen a house on LBC which is an unbelievable price. So much so that if it wasn't also advertised with an agency I would think it was a scam.

Just having a couple of quiet days to re-evaluate. Mainly wondering if I can survive the Vosgian winters as I'm starting to get on a bit!

I did say nothing is ever simple at Clicky Towers...:frusty:


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> So, D-Day +1 has arrived (got my - + mixed up last time ).
> 
> Still here in Blighty & had a major ding-dong this weekend.
> 
> My son came home from school on Friday with his spelling prize for words such as athlete, blackberry, playground and I was very impressed as he is still only five.
> The worry of pulling him out of school hit me again & I got 'cold feet' for the move.
> 
> Mme hit the roof, but after a couple of days cooling off she now wants us to move back to Les Vosges.
> 
> She thinks being back on familiar turf will be better, as she knows she can commute to Nancy & get a job easily. She knows the nice villages & has a few friends in the area.
> 
> We have seen a house on LBC which is an unbelievable price. So much so that if it wasn't also advertised with an agency I would think it was a scam.
> 
> Just having a couple of quiet days to re-evaluate. Mainly wondering if I can survive the Vosgian winters as I'm starting to get on a bit!
> 
> I did say nothing is ever simple at Clicky Towers...:frusty:


But Spring (actually more like summer) arrived early in the Vosges this year. I'd move there very happily, but it's way too cold for me, but I have to say the weather recently has been far, far better there than down here in Pau. Oh and their winter this year overall wasn't too bad at all, well, compared with their usual winters. Who knows, it might just end up being the most temperate place in France!


----------



## berkinet

Clic Clac said:


> ... spelling prize for words such as athlete, blackberry, playground and I was very impressed as he is still only five...
> ...[Mme] thinks being back on familiar turf will be better...


Well, that's another nice mess you've gotten yourself into. And, really, _Athlète_, _mûre _, and _terrain de jeu _ aren't much more difficult (except maybe for terrain de jeu). :first:

But, seriously, while you are absolutely correct to have concerns about _pulling him out of school_ you should also keep in mind that it will only get harder each day longer you wait. Also, I would be more thoughtful about the social impacts of such a move than about the educational. At that age children learn quickly and, while there might be a temporary setback in the (parentally observed) learning process, it will pass very quickly.

Having a french mother counts for a lot too and should help ease the transition.

But, always keep in mind: a happy wife makes for a happy life*. Or, perhaps more to the point, une femme heureuse fait pour une vie heureuse.

* To those who care about such things (which should be all of us) "a happy husband makes for a happy life" is equally valid, except it doesn't rhyme very well.


----------



## baldilocks

berkinet said:


> Well, that's another nice mess you've gotten yourself into. And, really, _Athlète_, _mûre _, and _terrain de jeu _ aren't much more difficult (except maybe for terrain de jeu). :first:
> 
> But, seriously, while you are absolutely correct to have concerns about _pulling him out of school_ you should also keep in mind that it will only get harder each day longer you wait. Also, I would be more thoughtful about the social impacts of such a move than about the educational. At that age children learn quickly and, while there might be a temporary setback in the (parentally observed) learning process, it will pass very quickly.
> 
> Having a french mother counts for a lot too and should help ease the transition.
> 
> But, always keep in mind: a happy wife makes for a happy life*. Or, perhaps more to the point, une femme heureuse fait pour une vie heureuse.
> 
> * To those who care about such things (which should be all of us) "a happy husband makes for a happy life" is equally valid, except it doesn't rhyme very well.


alternatively, a miserable wife makes for a miserable life.


----------



## Clic Clac

baldilocks said:


> alternatively, a miserable wife makes for a miserable life.


Ooh, you are a wag, Baldi. 

Thanks for the support, Berky.

I find it very difficult because I had many years with only myself to worry about.
If I wanted to go somewhere, I went.
If it didn't work out I just moved onto the next 'fiendish plan'.

Things are steadying a bit, and it should be full steam ahead on the ferry later in the week. :car:

WAZE is fully loaded (sorry Smeg), and hopefully guiding me through the wastelands of Picardy to the Promised Land.

It's an area where I worked for 3 years, so there is a chance of picking up some work from the old employers, and a much smaller area to concentrate on.

Onwards & Upwards, Rodders. :fingerscrossed:


----------



## baldilocks

Clic Clac said:


> Ooh, you are a wag, Baldi.
> 
> Thanks for the support, Berky.
> 
> I find it very difficult because I had many years with only myself to worry about.
> If I wanted to go somewhere, I went.
> If it didn't work out I just moved onto the next 'fiendish plan'.
> 
> Things are steadying a bit, and it should be full steam ahead on the ferry later in the week. :car:
> 
> WAZE is fully loaded (sorry Smeg), and hopefully guiding me through the wastelands of Picardy to the Promised Land.
> 
> It's an area where I worked for 3 years, so there is a chance of picking up some work from the old employers, and a much smaller area to concentrate on.
> 
> Onwards & Upwards, Rodders. :fingerscrossed:


Bonne chance


----------



## Poloss

Clic Clac said:


> Mme hit the roof, but after a couple of days cooling off she now wants us to move back to Les Vosges.
> 
> She thinks being back on familiar turf will be better, as she knows she can commute to Nancy & get a job easily. She knows the nice villages & has a few friends in the area.
> 
> We have seen a house on LBC which is an unbelievable price.


Bye bye Deux Sèvres, Hello les Vosges?
You lucky man, you!

Years & years ago I got a really warm welcome in a village not so far from Nancy and still remember the people there. The mayor was trawling for young couples to repopulate his désert rural!
54112 Uruffe.
Ain't in the Vosges, just inside the Meurthe-et-Moselle.
And you're not far from Domrémy-la Pucelle, which must be Joan of Arc's home town!

If I had to live close to Nancy, I'd go back to Uruffe.


----------



## 95995

Poloss said:


> Bye bye Deux Sèvres, Hello les Vosges?
> You lucky man, you!
> 
> Years & years ago I got a really warm welcome in a village not so far from Nancy and still remember the people there. The mayor was trawling for young couples to repopulate his désert rural!
> 54112 Uruffe.
> Ain't in the Vosges, just inside the Meurthe-et-Moselle.
> And you're not far from Domrémy-la Pucelle, which must be Joan of Arc's home town!
> 
> If I had to live close to Nancy, I'd go back to Uruffe.


But that would be around a 1 hour commute each way to Nancy.


----------



## Clic Clac

Poloss said:


> Bye bye Deux Sèvres, Hello les Vosges?
> You lucky man, you!
> 
> Years & years ago I got a really warm welcome in a village not so far from Nancy and still remember the people there. The mayor was trawling for young couples to repopulate his désert rural!
> 54112 Uruffe.
> Ain't in the Vosges, just inside the Meurthe-et-Moselle.
> And you're not far from Domrémy-la Pucelle, which must be Joan of Arc's home town!
> 
> If I had to live close to Nancy, I'd go back to Uruffe.


Thanks Poloss.

I don't want to be too close to Nancy, as I find most of the area too-modern or too post-industrial... and we can't afford it anyway.

EH, about 45 minutes into the city, with a fair wind.

We'll actually be much farther out, but it's still the thick-end of an hour, either on the motorway, or, ideally, by train.

Mme will be the commuter.


----------



## baldilocks

Clic Clac said:


> Thanks Poloss.
> 
> I don't want to be too close to Nancy, as I find most of the area too-modern or too post-industrial... and we can't afford it anyway.
> 
> EH, about 45 minutes into the city, with a fair wind.
> 
> We'll actually be much farther out, but it's still the thick-end of an hour, either on the motorway, or, ideally, by train.
> 
> Mme will be the commuter.


sounds good to me.


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> Thanks Poloss.
> 
> I don't want to be too close to Nancy, as I find most of the area too-modern or too post-industrial... and we can't afford it anyway.
> 
> EH, about 45 minutes into the city, with a fair wind.
> 
> We'll actually be much farther out, but it's still the thick-end of an hour, either on the motorway, or, ideally, by train.
> 
> Mme will be the commuter.


So around 2 hours commute each day for the poor woman.


----------



## baldilocks

EverHopeful said:


> So around 2 hours commute each day for the poor woman.


I used to do 1½ hours each way across London and never found it too bad - I could sleep on the longer leg and people-watch on the shorter, or I could read or even listen to an audio book, things which I wouldn't normally get to do if I stayed at home or walked to work or took a short bus ride and with the latter, I would have to pay attention in order not to get overcarried.


----------



## 95995

baldilocks said:


> I used to do 1½ hours each way across London and never found it too bad - I could sleep on the longer leg and people-watch on the shorter, or I could read or even listen to an audio book, things which I wouldn't normally get to do if I stayed at home or walked to work or took a short bus ride and with the latter, I would have to pay attention in order not to get overcarried.


But she has a young child, and will undoubtedly have a share of the chores at home. I don't consider it the same thing. I've done 2 hours each way commute, but I didn't have a child, so IMHO it's not at all the same thing. It's not ideal.


----------



## baldilocks

EverHopeful said:


> But she has a young child, and will undoubtedly have a share of the chores at home. I don't consider it the same thing. I've done 2 hours each way commute, but I didn't have a child, so IMHO it's not at all the same thing. It's not ideal.


Are you being sexist and suggesting that CC can't look after a child while it's mother is absent and part of the shared time, nor take care of the home? For many mothers, it would be a heaven-sent opportunity to off-load some of the chore of motherhood.


----------



## 95995

baldilocks said:


> Are you being sexist and suggesting that CC can't look after a child while it's mother is absent and part of the shared time, nor take care of the home? For many mothers, it would be a heaven-sent opportunity to off-load some of the chore of motherhood.


I know perfectly well that CC will pick up a major part of child care and undoubtedly much of the housework, but I'm concerned that his partner (who will doubtless be the primary income earner, or at least in terms of stable income) will be leaving home early and returning late and will have very little time to spend with her son. Not forgetting, of course, she will be the best placed to help her son with reading, writing and counting in French and that it won't be long before he moves from maternelle to primary school and having to also do mental arithmetic in French, which is arguably more complicated than in English. Do you think that's a sexist view? BTW most French fathers these days do share the childcare responsibilities.


----------



## Clic Clac

EverHopeful said:


> So around 2 hours commute each day for the poor woman.


Poor old Clicky used to do a 5 hour Allez-Retour out of Nancy.

I left at 05.20, returning at 23.00. No fun in the winter 

I joked one day that I should take a job in Paris, as that is only 3 hours A-R on the TGV!


----------



## Clic Clac

Baked beans, pot-noodles, ravioli. Ferry booked. First night in a hotel (get a wash for the week  ). Campsite booked.

Almost loaded up.
Awake early-doors then Dover bound.....:music:

Just have to figure out how to get the Waze to load up on my dashboard screen.

I've got my compass this time anyway. Built into the new SmartPhone, Smeggie. 

Incidentally, anyone looking to buy a phone, I've just bought a huawei honor 9 lite for £150.

Brilliant. Not sure why anyone would spend another 500 notes on anything else.


Next news from the campsite.


----------



## Bevdeforges

Oh dear, haven't you heard? Huawei is "spying" on everyone for the Chinese government. Or something like that. (I just LOVE my recent Huawei tablet purchase and the fact that the US government has some big bug on about the company is just an added plus IMO.)
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## 95995

Bevdeforges said:


> Oh dear, haven't you heard? Huawei is "spying" on everyone for the Chinese government. Or something like that. (I just LOVE my recent Huawei tablet purchase and the fact that the US government has some big bug on about the company is just an added plus IMO.)
> Cheers,
> Bev


LOL Australia has the same phobia! I love my Huawei 10 Note - so happy to have abandoned my iPhone


----------



## Bevdeforges

EverHopeful said:


> LOL Australia has the same phobia! I love my Huawei 10 Note - so happy to have abandoned my iPhone


Great minds think alike, I guess. 

I am kind of curious about that ZTE company that the US just decided to "rescue." Saw something on the news saying that the Chinese government just invested $500 million in a Trump project in Indonesia or some other country and that's the real reason why Trump decided to lift the "sanctions" or "embargo" against ZTE but not Huawei.
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## Clic Clac

Don't think they will be very interested in my life in the tent! In fact they will probably have a headache with the number of times I 've tapped this thing.. It's taken me 20 minutes to reply lol. Had a visit booked for today but the house sold on Thursday. Looks great from the outside. Saw one on Saturday which is OK and one yesterday which the owner said he is happy to negotiate on because he wants to sell it before it falls down!! Doing a tour of the villages but very surprised how nice the villages are. Wish you were here, CC.


Bevdeforges said:


> Oh dear, haven't you heard? Huawei is "spying" on everyone for the Chinese government. Or something like that. (I just LOVE my recent Huawei tablet purchase and the fact that the US government has some big bug on about the company is just an added plus IMO.)
> Cheers,
> Bev


----------



## Bellthorpe

Bevdeforges said:


> Oh dear, haven't you heard? Huawei is "spying" on everyone for the Chinese government. Or something like that. (I just LOVE my recent Huawei tablet purchase and the fact that the US government has some big bug on about the company is just an added plus IMO.)
> Cheers,
> Bev



Y'all might laugh - but the technology is quite capable of doing that. The NSA does it. This article describes NSA doing to export routers for export precisely what Western governments accuse Huawei of doing.

https://www.infoworld.com/article/2...-nsa-planted-backdoors-in-cisco-products.html

And have a read of these two articles:

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/...e-backdoors-may-still-be-a-problem-from-hell/

https://www.wired.com/2016/06/demonically-clever-backdoor-hides-inside-computer-chip/

These days we should all assume that our communications are hacked. I'm using a VPN, and the forum thinks I'm positing from the UK. No agency can track or read the message content (although in this case it's going to a public forum so it's moot). The router can vacuum them up but it won't help the bad guys (Governments). But if the chip in my computer is hacked, then I'm screwed.


----------



## 95995

Bellthorpe said:


> Y'all might laugh - but the technology is quite capable of doing that. The NSA does it. This article describes NSA doing to export routers for export precisely what Western governments accuse Huawei of doing.
> 
> https://www.infoworld.com/article/2...-nsa-planted-backdoors-in-cisco-products.html
> 
> And have a read of these two articles:
> 
> https://www.technologyreview.com/s/...e-backdoors-may-still-be-a-problem-from-hell/
> 
> https://www.wired.com/2016/06/demonically-clever-backdoor-hides-inside-computer-chip/
> 
> These days we should all assume that our communications are hacked. I'm using a VPN, and the forum thinks I'm positing from the UK. No agency can track or read the message content (although in this case it's going to a public forum so it's moot). The router can vacuum them up but it won't help the bad guys (Governments). But if the chip in my computer is hacked, then I'm screwed.


I assume pretty much everything is hackable by pretty much anyone, including US and Chinese governments. Whilst I do my best to secure my systems, I'm pretty much of the view that nothing online is 100% safe and neither is my hard drive. And even if you do nothing online, the companies and other services you use do.


----------



## Clic Clac

You name a hamlet in les vosges, and the ClickyMobile has been there. 200 kms a day this week. (I notice diesel isn't cheap). I love it here because it's just like Scotland, but with an 80% reduction in house prices, and everyone here makes me look young 🙂 People just stand in the street and stare. I think the last GB plate passed through in 1944! My French has improved after being away (I think someone wrote that on here before?), and Les Flics understood me when they stopped the ClickyMobile!! It was half expected out here as sometimes I'm the only one on the road. Can anyone post bail? I gave them your number DejW 🙂


----------



## 512346

Clic Clac said:


> You name a hamlet in les vosges, and the ClickyMobile has been there.


You up for challenge Clicky ?

Menil sur Belvitte !!


----------



## Clic Clac

Had to double check that one Smeggy, as I have been to a few Menils,) The names start the same and half of the villages look the same, but I'm starting to recognise the lay-bys now. No, I should have said in the west as it is much prettier and quieter than I remember east of Epinal. Is it your old stomping ground? 




Smeg said:


> Clic Clac said:
> 
> 
> 
> You name a hamlet in les vosges, and the ClickyMobile has been there.
> 
> 
> 
> You up for challenge Clicky ?
> 
> Menil sur Belvitte !!
Click to expand...


----------



## 512346

Clic Clac said:


> Is it your old stomping ground?


I have been/stayed there many times. OH family home is there.

I love the Vosges region of France. I really do.

You must have been to Baccarat ? As in where the crystal is made.


----------



## Clic Clac

Bert? 🙂 

No, but if it has any falling-down-fixer-uppers it will probably be on the list. 

Went to see Joan. Probably nicest village so far. 







Smeg said:


> You must have been to Baccarat ? As in where the crystal is made.


----------



## 512346

Clic Clac said:


> Bert? 🙂
> 
> No, but if it has any falling-down-fixer-uppers it will probably be on the list.
> 
> Went to see Joan. Probably nicest village so far.



I'm Lost

What has Jeanne d'arc got to do with Baccarat ?


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> You name a hamlet in les vosges, and the ClickyMobile has been there. 200 kms a day this week. (I notice diesel isn't cheap). I love it here because it's just like Scotland, but with an 80% reduction in house prices, and everyone here makes me look young 🙂 People just stand in the street and stare. I think the last GB plate passed through in 1944! My French has improved after being away (I think someone wrote that on here before?), and Les Flics understood me when they stopped the ClickyMobile!! It was half expected out here as sometimes I'm the only one on the road. Can anyone post bail? I gave them your number DejW 🙂


Corcieux?


----------



## Clic Clac

I didn't see Bert (Baccarat), instead I went to see Joan. ,) 

[/quote]
I'm Lost 

What has Jeanne d'arc got to do with Baccarat ? [/QUOTE]


----------



## Clic Clac

Visited another house today and started to talk money for the first time. It's with the Agency for 30k so I presumed we were already down to 26/27 by going direct to the owner. He was talking about a 'petit peu' off that, but playing the old 'it's for my poor old mother who is in the retirement home' routine. It has been empty for 5 years, like most of them, and I would normally offer 20k and sit back. The problem is that there are only 4 houses and a farm in that part of the village and he lives in one of them! I don't want to beat him down too much and have him as a bad neighbour. 

Thoughts please...


----------



## Poloss

Clic Clac said:


> I would normally offer 20k and sit back. The problem is that there are only 4 houses and a farm in that part of the village and he lives in one of them! I don't want to beat him down too much and have him as a bad neighbour.
> 
> Thoughts please...


Roof? Fosse? Electicity & plumbing? Heating?
Offer 20K and if you get haggled up to 24K it's not a disaster.
Emphasise to him how well you're going to be renovating his old mum's house with those extra K. 
He'll be proud that he sold you his house! (for a bouchée de pain)


----------



## Clic Clac

Hi Poloss. It's a long building so half the roof looks more recent than the other. Strangely in the bedroom under the 'good' part there was a washing-up bowl still catching the drips! More bizarre because the guy is a roofer & says that will be sorted. The older half has the big pantiles, a couple of rows of which are stacked three high for some reason? Upgrade planned for that part. Maybe get an 'Open' Devis off him before I sign as he will no doubt expect the work. 
The house is on mains sewerage. The electricity works but will be on the list to replace in the next year or two. Same for the plumbing. The heating is supposed to work well and pipework looks recent. Will make the offer subject to the big boiler being fired up. 


> Roof? Fosse? Electicity & plumbing? Heating?
> Offer 20K and if you get haggled up to 24K it's not a disaster.
> Emphasise to him how well you're going to be renovating his old mum's house with those extra K.
> He'll be proud that he sold you his house! (for a bouchée de pain)


----------



## Poloss

I just hope you surviving on tinned rations and pot noodles won't affect your final judgement!

Load up on vitamin C, also magnesium and phosphorus (chocolate and fish) for the nervous system and brain power, cod liver oil for vitamine D if you're low on sunshine and throw in some brewer's yeast B12 for good measure.

A good night in a B&B hotel before you sign anything serious 

Cheers


----------



## Clic Clac

Thanks for your edit, Bev. Haven't got the hang of this mobile posting yet. 😂 Fear-not Poloss, I won't do anything rash - and I'm overdosing on sunshine and tuna. The weather has been beautiful apart from the odd passing shower. What a house I found yesterday. I had been dispatched to a village to find one that is with an agent. As usual half the village is for sale. I saw one which looked nice and a neighbour appeared (as they do in Les Vosges). Her grandmother used to live in the house and the owner's friends live nearby and have a phone number for him. The friend holds a key and offered to show me round. He opened the door and WOW what a house. Mme had to phone for a price and they are asking 60k. On being told it's beyond our budget the owner immediately asked 'how much do you have'. 😂 I think we could get it for 40 but Mme won't entertain taking a credit (she has already reduced my budget to allow for a car and living costs). Do you think there's any chance her bank of 30 years would loan her 10/15k against the property before she has a job? I work on the basis of 'if you don't ask...' but she can't see that she's going to pay the money anyway to repair the dumps I'm looking at.


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> Thanks for your edit, Bev. Haven't got the hang of this mobile posting yet. 😂 Fear-not Poloss, I won't do anything rash - and I'm overdosing on sunshine and tuna. The weather has been beautiful apart from the odd passing shower. What a house I found yesterday. I had been dispatched to a village to find one that is with an agent. As usual half the village is for sale. I saw one which looked nice and a neighbour appeared (as they do in Les Vosges). Her grandmother used to live in the house and the owner's friends live nearby and have a phone number for him. The friend holds a key and offered to show me round. He opened the door and WOW what a house. Mme had to phone for a price and they are asking 60k. On being told it's beyond our budget the owner immediately asked 'how much do you have'. 😂 I think we could get it for 40 but Mme won't entertain taking a credit (she has already reduced my budget to allow for a car and living costs). *Do you think there's any chance her bank of 30 years would loan her 10/15k against the property before she has a job? *I work on the basis of 'if you don't ask...' but she can't see that she's going to pay the money anyway to repair the dumps I'm looking at.


Unlikely unless she has some other income.


----------



## EuroTrash

Lenders are legally obliged to ensure that repayments are less than 30% of the borrower's proven disposible income so how would that work if you have no proven disposible income?


----------



## berkinet

Clic Clac said:


> ... Do you think there's any chance her bank of 30 years would loan her 10/15k against the property before she has a job? I work on the basis of 'if you don't ask...' but she can't see that she's going to pay the money anyway to repair the dumps I'm looking at.


CAVEAT - I have no idea if this would work, or is even possible in France. Having said that...

In the US it is not unknown to ask the seller to carry a note, usually a second mortgage, but a first mortgage is also possible. Perhaps the seller might be interested in doing so in your case. Particularly if you come up a bit in your offer, set a fair interest rate, and a reasonably short term for the loan. Say, 5 years or less. 

For example, a 5 year, 20.000€ loan at 6% would cost around 390€ a month. It is generally a good idea to construct the loan so you already have the first few payments set aside. In this case, 2300€ would cover 6 months while _madame (*or you)*_ seeks work.


----------



## Clic Clac

Thanks EH & ET.

I just hoped that there might be a bit of slack with the bank as she has worked most of the last 30 years. Bit of a chicken and egg with the house and job.

That might work Berki. In fact I saw a place advertised where the owner proposed a deal like that. 

Worth bearing in mind, but onwards we go - viewings booked for tomorrow and Friday.


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> Thanks EH & ET.
> 
> I just hoped that there might be a bit of slack with the bank as she has worked most of the last 30 years. Bit of a chicken and egg with the house and job.
> 
> That might work Berki. In fact I saw a place advertised where the owner proposed a deal like that.
> 
> Worth bearing in mind, but onwards we go - viewings booked for tomorrow and Friday.


Have you considered an achat en viager? https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F2762


----------



## Clic Clac

Hello EH.

I find the Viager purchases interesting in both uses of the word, but only later if I ever have a few quid as an investment for my son.

Everyone in Les Vosges seems to live to 100 so it will be no good for me. 😪

I was excited about the house today. I tracked the owner down via the neighbours and the lady told me 30,000.

I must have looked shocked because she immediately said we can negotiate. I was shocked because a similar one in the same village is 45k with the agency.

I arrived to see a window open but no sign of a mop. 🤔

Turns out to be an unfinished project because the original owner died. 

It's just to finish ie there are three wires and two pipes in the kitchen, and four pipes in the bathroom (plus the waste water pipes) and a toilet. 

Wires coming out of walls and waiting for lights, that kind of thing. 

The house was dry, with a few marks from damp on the wallpaper, but no corresponding marks outside. 

The attic is already blocked out with a window fitted and a concrete floor(!!!). 
Has anyone else got one? Never seen it before. 

This gave me a view straight up to the tiles which look to be in good order. 

The floor is therefore sealed to the block work, and I could see that it was perfectly dry even after last night's big storm. 

A bit of water has been coming in over the far side which is a wooden floor above the garage. 

Only problem (apart from learning how to fit a shower), is that it currently has a fosse. I didn't fully understand the owner but he was telling me that the village is all going onto the main sewer.

Who pays for that work? Does the owner pay up to the road?


*No DejW it's VIAGER not your pills. 😂😂


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> Hello EH.
> 
> I find the Viager purchases interesting in both uses of the word, but only later if I ever have a few quid as an investment for my son.
> 
> Everyone in Les Vosges seems to live to 100 so it will be no good for me. 😪
> 
> I was excited about the house today. I tracked the owner down via the neighbours and the lady told me 30,000.
> 
> I must have looked shocked because she immediately said we can negotiate. I was shocked because a similar one in the same village is 45k with the agency.
> 
> I arrived to see a window open but no sign of a mop. 🤔
> 
> Turns out to be an unfinished project because the original owner died.
> 
> It's just to finish ie there are three wires and two pipes in the kitchen, and four pipes in the bathroom (plus the waste water pipes) and a toilet.
> 
> Wires coming out of walls and waiting for lights, that kind of thing.
> 
> The house was dry, with a few marks from damp on the wallpaper, but no corresponding marks outside.
> 
> The attic is already blocked out with a window fitted and a concrete floor(!!!).
> Has anyone else got one? Never seen it before.
> 
> This gave me a view straight up to the tiles which look to be in good order.
> 
> The floor is therefore sealed to the block work, and I could see that it was perfectly dry even after last night's big storm.
> 
> A bit of water has been coming in over the far side which is a wooden floor above the garage.
> 
> Only problem (apart from learning how to fit a shower), is that it currently has a fosse. I didn't fully understand the owner but he was telling me that the village is all going onto the main sewer.
> 
> *Who pays for that work? Does the owner pay up to the road?*


AFAIK the owner pays from the road to the premises, worth asking the Mairie if it's possible to pay over time (and also ask them about timeframes - when you will be able to connect to a functional system and how long you will have to do so). If it's imminent, you shouldn't have to worry about any modifications to the fosse (but you might just have to get it cleaned out in the meantime so that it functions reasonably well and you don't get unwanted smells - shouldn't be very expensive).


----------



## Clic Clac

Thanks EH.

Yes if things progress I'll call into the Mairie.


----------



## berkinet

Clic Clac said:


> ...This gave me a view straight up to the tiles which look to be in good order. ...


One comment. The tiles in your picture look modern. But, on old tile roofs - U shaped tiles set in “caps and valleys” - (or even poorly installed new ones) strong winds can blow rain and water up under the tiles. It is a good idea to call out a roofing expert to give you a devis on a repair. If it needs work, you’ll know how much you are in for, and if it doesn’t need work, the roofer will tell you so, and grouse about you wasting his time.

This is particularly important if you plan to use the grenier.


----------



## Clic Clac

Thanks again Berki. 

I would use the Like or Thanks button but that's a bit beyond me with the mobile. 🤔

Fair point to bear in mind re: the wind. 
I'm not sure how old it is, relatively modern I think, but it has had a lot of changes over the last few years. 

The roof certainly stood up to vertical rain well as it was a mega storm the night before the visit. 

I think all the houses that I have visited had the same setup. Do they never use a felt or plastic liner underneath? 



berkinet said:


> Clic Clac said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...This gave me a view straight up to the tiles which look to be in good order. ...
> 
> 
> 
> One comment. The tiles in your picture look modern. But, on old tile roofs - U shaped tiles set in “caps and valleys” - (or even poorly installed new ones) strong winds can blow rain and water up under the tiles. It is a good idea to call out a roofing expert to give you a devis on a repair. If it needs work, you’ll know how much you are in for, and if it doesn’t need work, the roofer will tell you so, and grouse about you wasting his time.
> 
> This is particularly important if you plan to use the grenier.
Click to expand...


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> Thanks again Berki.
> 
> I would use the Like or Thanks button but that's a bit beyond me with the mobile. 🤔
> 
> Fair point to bear in mind re: the wind.
> I'm not sure how old it is, relatively modern I think, but it has had a lot of changes over the last few years.
> 
> The roof certainly stood up to vertical rain well as it was a mega storm the night before the visit.
> 
> I think all the houses that I have visited had the same setup. *Do they never use a felt or plastic liner underneath*?


I think you might mean foil or plastic. The answer is it's pretty rare, especially in older buildings, unless the roof has been replaced and the owners have opted to have it installed.


----------



## Bevdeforges

Don't know if they do it any more, but in the past some folks used a felt (or some kind of pressed fibre) liner. I was rather astonished to find that our roof had no sort of liner back in 1999 when the windstorms broke several of our roof tiles.

And as EH says, you pretty much have to choose to have it installed. Lots of folks around where I live don't think it's necessary and opt not to bother.
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## berkinet

Clic Clac said:


> ...I think all the houses that I have visited had the same setup. Do they never use a felt or plastic liner underneath?


The main issue with water penetration through a tile roof is related to the pitch of the roof and the amount of overlap of the tiles. The steeper the pitch, the less overlap required. Also, modern roofing tiles, the rectangular flat tiles in particular, have an interlock system that helps block water entry.

So, as EH noted


EverHopeful said:


> I think you might mean foil or plastic. The answer is it's pretty rare, especially in older buildings, unless the roof has been replaced and the owners have opted to have it installed.


Some type of water barrier is typically installed under older roofs when a former storage space is being converted to domestic use and the roof pitch is too shallow to assure against leakage.

BTW, EH, the asphalt impregnated roofing material is often called roofing felt and is very similar to tar paper. Both products are being (slowly) replaced by synthetic products.

That's all for today's *Brico**Lesson*


----------



## Bevdeforges

berkinet said:


> The main issue with water penetration through a tile roof is related to the pitch of the roof and the amount of overlap of the tiles. The steeper the pitch, the less overlap required. Also, modern roofing tiles, the rectangular flat tiles in particular, have an interlock system that helps block water entry.


When the tiles themselves get broken and fall off, the water penetration is pretty much 100% in the spot where the tiles are missing. Or so it was back during the big Tempetes in 1999. Evidently, in strong winds, the tiles on the roof actually lift up slightly, which is what allows the rain in. 

Strange and wondrous things we learn here in the forums!
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## Clic Clac

Thanks again folks. Keep 'em coming.

The bit I can't get my head around is the guy who has the roofing company. He's left in charge of the sale of the family home which has been empty for 5 years... and the roof leaks. 

Not only that he lives 100 m away and doesn't bother opening up the place before I arrive for a second visit, leaving me to discover the washing up bowl full of 'drips' from the ceiling.

I know, Bev's going to tell me 'that's France'.


----------



## 95995

berkinet said:


> The main issue with water penetration through a tile roof is related to the pitch of the roof and the amount of overlap of the tiles. The steeper the pitch, the less overlap required. Also, modern roofing tiles, the rectangular flat tiles in particular, have an interlock system that helps block water entry.
> 
> So, as EH notedSome type of water barrier is typically installed under older roofs when a former storage space is being converted to domestic use and the roof pitch is too shallow to assure against leakage.
> 
> *BTW, EH, the asphalt impregnated roofing material is often called roofing felt and is very similar to tar paper. Both products are being (slowly) replaced by synthetic products.
> *
> That's all for today's *Brico**Lesson*


 I read felt literally, wasn't thinking roofing felt  

BTW anyone thinking about installing a water barrier when fitting out a roof space should ensure it is VERY carefully installed and undamaged during the fitting process, otherwise water can trickle down and enter the building and it can be very difficult to find the point where it is originally penetrating.


Can you tell I've been through the renovating run down homes process (not in France)?


----------



## Bevdeforges

> I know, Bev's going to tell me 'that's France'.


Ah, how well you know me!

I remember when we were looking at houses for possible purchase, there was one place that had an interior door with glass panels - one of which was broken. Where I come from, the real estate agents would pitch a hissy fit if you didn't fix little "cosmetic stuff" like that before showing the house. But it just doesn't seem to be a big concern here.

The idea seems to be that anyone who buys is going to blow out all sorts of money to "renovate" a place to their own tastes. But honestly, some of the places we saw had the UGLIEST wallpaper I've ever seen!

Then again, when I finally got around to pulling down the wallpaper here in our house in the main room (sort of too floral for my tastes, but sort of all right), I found even uglier wall paper, which was apparently what had been put up when the house was first built (by my DH, I must add). I actually took pictures of it to prove that I wasn't just making it up.
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## Clic Clac

lol @felt. Missed that one EH. 

I'm not a building specialist but I've built a few rabbit hutches in my time.


----------



## 512346

All houses in France are renovation projects. Even brand new ones. 

I have yet to see a house in France that does not require some extensive work


----------



## 95995

Smeg said:


> All houses in France are renovation projects. Even brand new ones.
> 
> I have yet to see a house in France that does not require some extensive work


But it's one thing to do some repairs and work so that it suits your tastes, it's a totally different thing to renovate a house that is unliveable (and to live in it at the same time). Ah but you're the guy who spends 15 years (!) renovating. My ex and I spent a little over 2 years working on a house every night and 6 am to 10 pm at weekends, no holidays - but my ex knew what he was doing  That was the only way we could get into the housing market at the time.


----------



## Poloss

Clic Clac said:


> I'm not sure how old it is, relatively modern I think, but it has had a lot of changes over the last few years.
> 
> The roof certainly stood up to vertical rain well as it was a mega storm the night before the visit.
> 
> *I think all the houses that I have visited had the same setup. Do they never use a felt or plastic liner underneath?*


What's used currently in new constructions and renovations is a plastic screen: "film micro perforé".
It lets air through (your roof breathes) but not water.
We put one on when we re-roofed a house in the early '90s; first you nail the volige onto the chevrons, staple the film flat & tight then nail your tasseaux over it to hook the tiles.

We had a builder over to do us a quote for a new roof: 8K€
Another guy said our tiles were fine; for 1300€ he'll clean the roof (karcher) then apply some cleaning products (anti moss etc), apply some kind of resin which seeps into the tiles (we have cement tiles but it works on clay/ceramic too) and furnish a 10 year guarantee.

Roofs in the Vosges are much steeper than in the south, so horizontal wind driving rain up under the tiles may be less of an issue. It certainly is a problem here with the good old Cévénoles chucking hundreds of litres on to south-facing roofs.

Information is available to determine exactly what angle of slope to give to a roof depending on which climate zone, what altitude, whether your roof has a screen fitted, and finally depending on the house's exposure to wind.

I've used tar paper too but only for ramshackle utility buildings.


----------



## Clic Clac

Thanks again Poloss.
I'll 'top up' on the Thanks button once I get back on the desktop.😉

I met a guy at the Brocante on Sunday who does the roof cleaning and similar treatments.

He said he would come over and look at the place before I sign. 

My main concern is still the two walls that have been removed (How Bad thread).

Any thoughts other than get the same guy to look at them?


----------



## Clic Clac

Just had a quick thought : is all property sold as 'Freehold' in France?

I realise the Notaire will know, but I would like to be aware before that stage. 

If not always, then what is the correct terminology to ask?


----------



## Poloss

Clic Clac said:


> Just had a quick thought : is all property sold as 'Freehold' in France?
> 
> I realise the Notaire will know, but I would like to be aware before that stage.
> 
> If not always, then what is the correct terminology to ask?


Yes, "freehold" in France.
The UK notion of 99 year "leasehold" doesn't exist in France as far as I know.


----------



## Clic Clac

Ok, thanks Poloss.



> Yes, "freehold" in France.
> The UK notion of 99 year "leasehold" doesn't exist in France as far as I know.


*Sorry Bev. Still can't get my head around the quotes button. Will be back to 'normal' next week.


----------



## Clic Clac

Ok. The RDV is arranged for 2pm.

WML...I might need it as the offer is way below the asking price.


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> Ok. The RDV is arranged for 2pm.
> 
> WML...I might need it as the offer is way below the asking price.


Good luck.


----------



## Clic Clac

Thanks EH. 

It went a bit quiet when I offered him 66% of his asking price. 

What's French for 'at least Dick Turpin wore a mask'. 

He came down 33% so that was a good start. I left him to chew it over. 





EverHopeful said:


> Clic Clac said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok. The RDV is arranged for 2pm.
> 
> WML...I might need it as the offer is way below the asking price.
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck.
Click to expand...


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> Thanks EH.
> 
> It went a bit quiet when I offered him 66% of his asking price.
> 
> What's French for 'at least Dick Turpin wore a mask'.
> 
> He came down 33% so that was a good start. I left him to chew it over.


If he came down 33% doesn't that make the price the 66% you offered? Or are you arguing over 1%?


----------



## Clic Clac

Would I argue over 1%, EH? 
Don't answer that. 

No, you are correct EH. It means that my maths are wrong lol. 

The trip is starting to get wearing now. 

He suggested we meet in the middle, so he came down 16.5%. 

Actually 16.6666666666666666666%

Wish I had offered him 50%.
I can do that without a calculator %) 





EverHopeful said:


> Clic Clac said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks EH.
> 
> It went a bit quiet when I offered him 66% of his asking price.
> 
> What's French for 'at least Dick Turpin wore a mask'.
> 
> He came down 33% so that was a good start. I left him to chew it over.
> 
> 
> 
> If he came down 33% doesn't that make the price the 66% you offered? Or are you arguing over 1%?
Click to expand...


----------



## BaguetteMan

How are things progressing Clic Clac?


----------



## baldilocks

BaguetteMan said:


> How are things progressing Clic Clac?


In real/emotional terms rather than percentages, otherwise we'll get EH quibbling again.


----------



## Clic Clac

All quiet on the Western Front as my grandad used to say. 

Left him with the offer. Now it's a bit like poker - if you speak first you've lost. 😀



BaguetteMan said:


> How are things progressing Clic Clac?


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> Would I argue over 1%, EH?
> Don't answer that.
> 
> No, you are correct EH. It means that my maths are wrong lol.
> 
> The trip is starting to get wearing now.
> 
> He suggested we meet in the middle, so he came down 16.5%.
> 
> Actually 16.6666666666666666666%
> 
> Wish I had offered him 50%.
> I can do that without a calculator %)


Thanks for the clarification 

So now you just wait/sweat it out or have you put a time limit on it? Have you still got other properties under consideration?


----------



## EuroTrash

Bit like Brexit innit - can you both stare no deal in the face without flinching, or will one of you cross a red line. 
But you obviously managed not to alienate him with your offer, so you're doing better than DD and TM already.
I got everything crossed for you, Clics :fingerscrossed:
Looking at it objectively, if there is no other interest I think he'll find it hard to turn down 66% of something in favour of 100% of nothing.


----------



## 512346

Do we have a photo of this house ?


----------



## Clic Clac

Only the parts that are unfinished, Smeggie. 

EH & ET : Yes, just sitting tight. 

I kept it fairly jovial and we parted on good terms. 

I would have been a bit worried if he had accepted immediately, and I'm not really sure who else is going to bid. There's a lot of work to do. 

There are at least 10 houses for sale in his village (pop 400), ranging from 17 - 60K and the agency boards are all well weathered. 

It has been with an agent for at least two years, but isn't on their website. 

Play it cool Trig, play it cool. 







Smeg said:


> Do we have a photo of this house ?


----------



## Clic Clac

BaguetteMan said:


> How are things progressing Clic Clac?



:cheer2::cheer2::cheer2::cheer2::cheer2:


----------



## baldilocks

Clic Clac said:


> Only the parts that are unfinished, Smeggie.
> 
> EH & ET : Yes, just sitting tight.
> 
> I kept it fairly jovial and we parted on good terms.
> 
> I would have been a bit worried if he had accepted immediately, and I'm not really sure who else is going to bid. There's a lot of work to do.
> 
> There are at least 10 houses for sale in his village (pop 400), ranging from 17 - 60K and the agency boards are all well weathered.
> 
> It has been with an agent for at least two years, but isn't on their website.
> 
> Play it cool Trig, play it cool.


It looks as though it is fully furnished - ceiling, walls, window, tiled floor and even a table - apart from a chair or two, what more could you ask for?


----------



## Clic Clac

baldilocks said:


> It looks as though it is fully furnished - ceiling, walls, window, tiled floor and even a table - apart from a chair or two, what more could you ask for?


A fridge for the beer?

p.s. That was the "estate agent angle" showing the only finished part! hoto:


----------



## baldilocks

Clic Clac said:


> A fridge for the beer?
> 
> p.s. That was the "estate agent angle" showing the only finished part! hoto:


So you are fortunate in having free-range (you'll be keeping chickens, next ) to do what you want without having to rip out somebody else's disasters first.


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> :cheer2::cheer2::cheer2::cheer2::cheer2:


I take it you have heard and that the price has been agreed. Congratulations and well done.


----------



## Clic Clac

Thanks EH, 

Yes, I was wrong for a change... 
They only asked for another thousand - as you suggested, just to save face. 

I was happy with that as it gave me the excuse to add in the provisos that the electrics and boiler work on arrival. 





EverHopeful said:


> Clic Clac said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I take it you have heard and that the price has been agreed. Congratulations and well done.
Click to expand...


----------



## Caerus

Congratulations ClicClac. I’ve been following this and hoping for the best for you. Very glad you’ve got something and can move back to France. Wish you all the best.


----------



## Clic Clac

Thanks Caerus. 

I'm just sweating a bit on the paperwork now, and want to get everything signed as quickly as possible. 

Of course Sod's Law said I would be back in England for 21 hours before the owner left a message!

We have emailed our details to the owner, and they are phoning a notaire this morning to get the ball rolling. 




Caerus said:


> Congratulations ClicClac. I’ve been following this and hoping for the best for you. Very glad you’ve got something and can move back to France. Wish you all the best.


----------



## berkinet

Clic Clac said:


> ...Of course Sod's Law said I would be back in England for 21 hours before the owner left a message!...


Well, maybe. Sod’s law, _if something can go wrong, it will, at the worst possible time_, is a variant of Murpy’s Law. And, in fact, as commonly stated, both are false. Lot’s of things do not go wrong, and lots of things that do go wrong do not go wrong at the worst possible time. What Murphy’s law actually said was... _*Given the chance,* anything that can go wrong will go wrong._ So, Clicky, If you have done your bits properly, and taken measures to assure success, you can relax and start packing for your own personal Brexit. Welcome (back) to france.


----------



## baldilocks

Fingers are crossed Clicky, so are arms, legs and eyes - don't 'arf make typing difficult!! 

:fingerscrossed::fingerscrossed::fingerscrossed::fingerscrossed::fingerscrossed::fingerscrossed::fingerscrossed::fingerscrossed::fingerscrossed::fingerscrossed::fingerscrossed:


----------



## Clic Clac

Thanks Berki & Baldi.

Yes, so far so good. Just many a slip twixt cup and lip... and all that. 

I'll keep you posted once we hear from the notaire.


----------



## eairicbloodaxe

Well done, CC!

I believe there is a military saying "no plan survives first contact with the enemy" which roughly translates something like "no matter how prepared you are, the law of sod will hit you in the face with a wet fish".

What makes sods law bearable is your attitude to it. You know France. You know life. So when this purchase chucks you a problem, you will seize it as an opportunity to make a new, improved plan. 'Tis all part of the fun.

Enjoy your new adventure.

Regards


Ian


----------



## Clic Clac

Thanks Ian. 

Just itching to crack on and get moved... but of course there will be quite a wait, but I've got a lot of DIY to swot up on before then. 

Monsieur Clicolage? 






eairicbloodaxe said:


> Well done, CC!
> 
> I believe there is a military saying "no plan survives first contact with the enemy" which roughly translates something like "no matter how prepared you are, the law of sod will hit you in the face with a wet fish".
> 
> What makes sods law bearable is your attitude to it. You know France. You know life. So when this purchase chucks you a problem, you will seize it as an opportunity to make a new, improved plan. 'Tis all part of the fun.
> 
> Enjoy your new adventure.
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> Ian


----------



## baldilocks

Clic Clac said:


> Thanks Ian.
> 
> Just itching to crack on and get moved... but of course there will be quite a wait, but I've got a lot of DIY to swot up on before then.
> 
> Monsieur Clicolage?


I must admit that 50 years ago, I found the Readers Digest DiY Manual very useful, even made my own bed.  They are up in the attic as a "just-in-case" treasure.


----------



## Clic Clac

baldilocks said:


> I must admit that 50 years ago, I found the Readers Digest DiY Manual very useful, even made my own bed.  They are up in the attic as a "just-in-case" treasure.


Yes, Amazon is awash with good manuals - and if it's not on Youtube, then it's not worth worrying about. :ranger:


----------



## eairicbloodaxe

baldilocks said:


> I must admit that 50 years ago, I found the Readers Digest DiY Manual very useful, even made my own bed.  They are up in the attic as a "just-in-case" treasure.


A fabuolus, fabulous book.

I once built a garden wall for someone, bricklaid using the traditional english garden walling pattern, entirely from what I read in that manual.

Having had zero bricklaying experience before...

The wall is still there 30 odd years on.

Regards


Ian


----------



## DejW

yes, the. RD diy book is very good, but buy it in French.......it's a bit different. YEARS, no *YEARS* ago I had the two on my bookshelf.......DejW


----------



## Clic Clac

Had a message from the notaire to tell us that the owners have applied for the Diagnostique Report. 

Is that a little late or do they expire after a certain time? 



Clic Clac said:


> Thanks Berki & Baldi.
> 
> Yes, so far so good. Just many a slip twixt cup and lip... and all that.
> 
> I'll keep you posted once we hear from the notaire.


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> Had a message from the notaire to tell us that the owners have applied for the Diagnostique Report.
> 
> Is that a little late or do they expire after a certain time?


When properties are not likely to sell quickly owners often wait until they have an offer before applying for the diagnostic, partly because of the cost but importantly because some of the reports are only valid for a relatively short time - see here https://www.inc-conso.fr/content/vente-immobiliere-les-diagnostics-obligatoires-pour-les-logements-usage-dhabitation

It shouldn't, however, take too much time.


----------



## eairicbloodaxe

Clic Clac said:


> Thanks Ian.
> 
> Just itching to crack on and get moved... but of course there will be quite a wait, but I've got a lot of DIY to swot up on before then.
> 
> Monsieur Clicolage?


If you are going to become Mr Clicolage (love that!), make sure you sign up for all the loyalty cards for every DIY store.

It will not be long before you get FREE stuff or vouchers. Frightening how the spend adds up when you "just have to pop to the DIY store for some more 25mm screws..."

Our friends gave us this advice and they were right.


Regards


Ian


----------



## Clic Clac

EverHopeful said:


> When properties are not likely to sell quickly owners often wait until they have an offer before applying for the diagnostic, partly because of the cost but importantly because some of the reports are only valid for a relatively short time - see here https://www.inc-conso.fr/content/vente-immobiliere-les-diagnostics-obligatoires-pour-les-logements-usage-dhabitation
> 
> It shouldn't, however, take too much time.


Thanks EH.

Just swotting up on radon now, as Les Vosges seems to be a high-risk area...:ranger:


----------



## baldilocks

Clic Clac said:


> Thanks EH.
> 
> Just swotting up on radon now, as Les Vosges seems to be a high-risk area...:ranger:


www.vosges.gouv.fr/content/download/.../A8_Risque_Radon.pdf


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> Thanks EH.
> 
> Just swotting up on radon now, as Les Vosges seems to be a high-risk area...:ranger:


You can check the risk for your commune here Connaître le potentiel radon de ma commune


----------



## baldilocks

You have prompted me to check up on something I had long wondered about this village since there is a very high incidence of breast cancer here. It would appear that we are in a pocket of medium risk which is not surprising since we are in an area that was volcanic and we do get some seismic activity as well.


----------



## Clic Clac

EverHopeful said:


> You can check the risk for your commune here Connaître le potentiel radon de ma commune


Thanks EH. I think.

Potential for Category 1.:scared:


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> Thanks EH. I think.
> 
> Potential for Category 1.:scared:


But Category 1 is the lowest of the 3 levels. However, the best thing is not to have a cellar, nor to be built into a hillside. (Category 3 in the area where my family comes from, none of them have cellars and the cancer rate for those who continue to live there seems no higher than for those who were born and bred in areas that are not deemed susceptible.)

I would be far more concerned about any local nuclear power stations, and the amount of radiation that was dropped onto Eastern France as a result of the Chernobyl disaster. Also AFAIK Australian indigenous populations living around Jabiru don't have a significantly higher rate of cancer and there is a huge amount of uranium there (but there was a history of leaks from Ranger's tailing ponds, which is more likely to cause problems).

Lots of other nasties in the atmosphere and the food chain that are far more dangerous.


Oh, and I would be concerned if there is lead in any area that your son might access.


----------



## Clic Clac

EverHopeful said:


> But Category 1 is the lowest of the 3 levels. However, the best thing is not to have a cellar, nor to be built into a hillside. (Category 3 in the area where my family comes from, none of them have cellars and the cancer rate for those who continue to live there seems no higher than for those who were born and bred in areas that are not deemed susceptible.)
> 
> I would be far more concerned about any local nuclear power stations, and the amount of radiation that was dropped onto Eastern France as a result of the Chernobyl disaster. Also AFAIK Australian indigenous populations living around Jabiru don't have a significantly higher rate of cancer and there is a huge amount of uranium there (but there was a history of leaks from Ranger's tailing ponds, which is more likely to cause problems).
> 
> Lots of other nasties in the atmosphere and the food chain that are far more dangerous.
> 
> 
> Oh, and I would be concerned if there is lead in any area that your son might access.



Phew. Thanks Eh. :clap2:

I thought Category 1 was the baddie lol.

I also noticed that we were in a Category 2 in our old house there, but as you say, French electrics or dodgy drivers were more likely to kill us.

I did remark earlier that every village in Les Vosges seems to be full of 90 year olds. Maybe they glow in the dark lol.

Well, the house has a solid concrete floor. No cave, and is actually built up onto a 'blockwork frame' which leaves a 40 cm air-pocket underneath the floor.

At the moment we're surrounded by major (smelly) roads, with a power station nearby which is quiet all day, but seems to throw out very dark "steam" once night-time arrives.
And the air tastes like old TCP that your mother used to rub on grazes (if you are of a certain age).


----------



## Clic Clac

Thanks Ian. Just seen this one. 



eairicbloodaxe said:


> Clic Clac said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Ian.
> 
> Just itching to crack on and get moved... but of course there will be quite a wait, but I've got a lot of DIY to swot up on before then.
> 
> Monsieur Clicolage?
> 
> 
> 
> If you are going to become Mr Clicolage (love that!), make sure you sign up for all the loyalty cards for every DIY store.
> 
> It will not be long before you get FREE stuff or vouchers. Frightening how the spend adds up when you "just have to pop to the DIY store for some more 25mm screws..."
> 
> Our friends gave us this advice and they were right.
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> Ian
Click to expand...


----------



## Clic Clac

I've decided not to add any 'clauses suspensives' to the sale, regarding the boiler & electrics.

I don't think the sellers will deliberately mislead, in fact they probably don't actually know after all this time, but I'm getting the place so cheap that I couldn't really go back to them to reduce it any lower. 

I'm still sweating a bit on them receiving another offer, but I guess that no-one has been interested so far.


----------



## eairicbloodaxe

Clic Clac said:


> I've decided not to add any 'clauses suspensives' to the sale, regarding the boiler & electrics.
> 
> I don't think the sellers will deliberately mislead, in fact they probably don't actually know after all this time, but I'm getting the place so cheap that I couldn't really go back to them to reduce it any lower.
> 
> I'm still sweating a bit on them receiving another offer, but I guess that no-one has been interested so far.


No! Go with your first instincts. You are starting to suffer bargain buyer remorse... where you feel sorry for the seller! This is bad...

If there is a problem, you need them to fix it. They have the advantage of the language and the local contacts.

You don't need to ask for a discount. Just for it to be sorted. They will be grateful. Because they will HAVE to fix it for someone.

And if you are lucky, no problems, all is sweet.

Keep the clause suspensive. It is your "insurance".

Regards


Ian

Source: I have been too kind to buyers in the past. It costs...


----------



## eairicbloodaxe

eairicbloodaxe said:


> Source: I have been too kind to buyers in the past. It costs...


Doh... I meant SELLERS...

Regards



Ian


----------



## Clic Clac

Read it as such. 😎



eairicbloodaxe said:


> eairicbloodaxe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Source: I have been too kind to buyers in the past. It costs...
> 
> 
> 
> Doh... I meant SELLERS...
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> 
> Ian
Click to expand...


----------



## Clic Clac

Lol. No I don't have any remorse. 
I've been down & picked over by the vultures before today & Cash Is King in Les Vosges. 

It's going to take a LOT of work to get things right, but I think we're already at rock bottom with the price. 

I don't want them to reach a point where they say 'don't bother' and keep it. 

The notaire seems to be keen & is preparing the CdeV and is talking about completion being two months after signing. 

I wonder if he has remembered that August is coming - or can they do the registrations online these days without 'human' input? 



eairicbloodaxe said:


> No! Go with your first instincts. You are starting to suffer bargain buyer remorse... where you feel sorry for the seller! This is bad...
> 
> If there is a problem, you need them to fix it. They have the advantage of the language and the local contacts.
> 
> You don't need to ask for a discount. Just for it to be sorted. They will be grateful. Because they will HAVE to fix it for someone.
> 
> And if you are lucky, no problems, all is sweet.
> 
> Keep the clause suspensive. It is your "insurance".
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> Ian
> 
> Source: I have been too kind to buyers in the past. It costs...


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> Lol. No I don't have any remorse.
> I've been down & picked over by the vultures before today & Cash Is King in Les Vosges.
> 
> It's going to take a LOT of work to get things right, but I think we're already at rock bottom with the price.
> 
> I don't want them to reach a point where they say 'don't bother' and keep it.
> 
> The notaire seems to be keen & is preparing the CdeV and is talking about completion being two months after signing.
> 
> I wonder if he has remembered that August is coming - or can they do the registrations online these days without 'human' input?


Are you talking about the registration of the transfer of ownership? That cannot be done before completion and won't hold up the sale or your occupancy, you will simply receive the paperwork in due course (which is normally the case anyway). AFAIK you haven't ye signed the Compromis, so completion would likely be early September. Let's hope it will be a little earlier so that your son can start school at the rentrée rather than after, and so that you have some time to get some basic comfort organised before the cold weather sets in. :fingerscrossed:


----------



## Clic Clac

Ah, ok EH. 
I thought that everything had to be done & signed off before the completion. 

No, we haven't signed the CdeV yet. Just waiting for the Diagnostique Report and hoping that there are no surprises. 

Our original plan was to be installed for the rentree, which is the best time for my son to join the class. 

If everything is okay for early September then we will stay somewhere close and put him in school. 

Making plans at this side to bring some of the basics that we need to move straight in (camping cooker, generator) and save on accommodation costs. 



EverHopeful said:


> Are you talking about the registration of the transfer of ownership? That cannot be done before completion and won't hold up the sale or your occupancy, you will simply receive the paperwork in due course (which is normally the case anyway). AFAIK you haven't ye signed the Compromis, so completion would likely be early September. Let's hope it will be a little earlier so that your son can start school at the rentrée rather than after, and so that you have some time to get some basic comfort organised before the cold weather sets in.


----------



## eairicbloodaxe

_ I don't want them to reach a point where they say 'don't bother' and keep it. _

Trust me. They won't. The fact that you made them a low offer and they said yes means they are desperate to get rid.

Please please please keep the clause suspensives...

If things do go very bad, and the costs of making it right are too high for them to bear, you can always settle on "OK I will pay half". That means from their side you are paying more than you offered... which means you are being fair. On the other side, you are reducing the costs you otherwise have to pay to get the bargain you thought you were getting...

Without those clauses, if there's 10k needed to get it even half way habitable because they did not maintain it little and often during the past few years... you lose out totally.

Rule one of property - NEVER BUY ON AN EMOTIONAL RESPONSE!

Rule 2. Always buy a house you will love...

(yes I know they are contradictory).

Fingers crossed for you that all is well. But do not hope... grab a rope.

Regards


Ian


----------



## Clic Clac

The paperwork for the 'Compromis' arrived today,including the dreaded 'Dossier'.

I had started to panic after reading up on asbestos. Some research in the UK states that 50% of houses are affected in some way or other.

Anyway, there is a little in the attic section - on the air flue (chimney?) and roof coverings :
*
Sur décision de l’opérateur de repérage : Liste B 

Description/ Localisation /Type de recommandation / Recommandations * 

Conduits de fluides (air)/Conduits Pièce 2 (Grenier) EP Evaluation périodique

Toitures/Accessoires de couverture (fibres-ciment) Pièce 3 (Grenier) EP Evaluation périodique *

Presumbly these will need to be replaced at some stage.

It is the "fibres-ciment" which worries me, as the house has concrete floors & ceilings (I presume the walls are block).

No mention of Radon in the report.


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> The paperwork for the 'Compromis' arrived today,including the dreaded 'Dossier'.
> 
> I had started to panic after reading up on asbestos. Some research in the UK states that 50% of houses are affected in some way or other.
> 
> Anyway, there is a little in the attic section - on the air flue (chimney?) and roof coverings :
> *
> Sur décision de l’opérateur de repérage : Liste B
> 
> Description/ Localisation /Type de recommandation / Recommandations *
> 
> Conduits de fluides (air)/Conduits Pièce 2 (Grenier) EP Evaluation périodique
> 
> Toitures/Accessoires de couverture (fibres-ciment) Pièce 3 (Grenier) EP Evaluation périodique *
> 
> Presumbly these will need to be replaced at some stage.
> 
> It is the "fibres-ciment" which worries me, as the house has concrete floors & ceilings (I presume the walls are block).
> 
> No mention of Radon in the report.


The recommendation is just that you keep an eye on its condition (that's always the case except where the condition is poor/bad and it needs to be removed). Unless it gets wet, is pierced or broken there is no concern and it will probably be OK for years. So leave it alone. (BTW it comes in various forms of sheeting, it was used because it is a very good insulator, it is now banned because of the risks when working with it, disposing of it, when it is damaged etc.


----------



## DejW

Try phoning the.technician who did the survey, I've found they are happy to give an informal comment, either no prob, replace when you can, or urgent.

Also notaire, (ask him too.....they see los of these reports every week).....I think they are legally bound to give you formal warning if the house is dangerous.

I'm due to sign the acte 31 July....all change here!

DejW




Clic Clac said:


> The paperwork for the 'Compromis' arrived today,including the dreaded 'Dossier'.
> 
> I had started to panic after reading up on asbestos. Some research in the UK states that 50% of houses are affected in some way or other.
> 
> Anyway, there is a little in the attic section - on the air flue (chimney?) and roof coverings :
> *
> Sur décision de l’opérateur de repérage : Liste B
> 
> Description/ Localisation /Type de recommandation / Recommandations *
> 
> Conduits de fluides (air)/Conduits Pièce 2 (Grenier) EP Evaluation périodique
> 
> Toitures/Accessoires de couverture (fibres-ciment) Pièce 3 (Grenier) EP Evaluation périodique *
> 
> Presumbly these will need to be replaced at some stage.
> 
> It is the "fibres-ciment" which worries me, as the house has concrete floors & ceilings (I presume the walls are block).
> 
> No mention of Radon in the report.


----------



## baldilocks

EverHopeful said:


> The recommendation is just that you keep an eye on its condition (that's always the case except where the condition is poor/bad and it needs to be removed). Unless it gets wet, is pierced or broken there is no concern and it will probably be OK for years. So leave it alone. (BTW it comes in various forms of sheeting, it was used because it is a very good insulator, it is now banned because of the risks when working with it, disposing of it, when it is damaged etc.


Paint it - seals the fibres into the sheet/block and make sure that the paint film doesn't get damaged -if it does, repaint it.


----------



## DejW

The usual advice before painting is to use sandpaper lightly to clean and give good paint adherance. DON'T SAND ASBESTOS.

DejW




baldilocks said:


> Paint it - seals the fibres into the sheet/block and make sure that the paint film doesn't get damaged -if it does, repaint it.


----------



## 95995

I there is asbestos based fibre board in a house (and it's very common in buildings built during the 20th century and before 1977), they have no option but to tell you to have it periodically evaluated unless it is in poor condition in which case you have to take action. So, in the case of the house you are buying, it is currently safe. If you undertake any works that might disturb the fibre-cement sheeting, you should seek appropriate advice re what precautions should be taken. You definitely are not allowed to just dump the product at the tip. Any major works undertaken that involve the product and removal of the product should be done by a specialist.

I have lived in homes where all the walls were made of the stuff and we had major works done whilst my family was in residence (and before the ban) and we have had no negative health effect. In fact my Dad lived in that house for almost 60 years. The house was renovated after the ban without removing the asbestos but rather by sealing it in. A small former Housing Commission house in Sydney, it sold very easily a few years ago for over a million AUD (well above and value).


----------



## jweihl

I understand that here in the US the current administration is seeking to have restrictions on asbestos lessened or removed. Presumably, asbestos is now considered healthy, like mining and burning coal, or fracking for oil.


----------



## DejW

Interesting to note that asbestos was known in ancient times. In the early 1900s it was proved to have fatal qualities. It seems the mining and building companies managed to hide this information. It was used in great quantities in buildings in the1960s and 70s, and it's now costing a fortune to knock them down due asbestos dust.

A memory from my chemistry lessons in the 1950s. We had bunsen burners and used a tripod to support flasks for heating. The tripod had an iron gauze, and to protect the flask from the flame the gauze was covered in asbestos. All this as we passed round a little box with mercury in it. However I am still alive. Probably more unhealthy was in my final year in organic chemistry we manufactured illicit gin and lemon in the lab, not difficult - the composite chemicals were in the A level syllabus.

DejW



jweihl said:


> I understand that here in the US the current administration is seeking to have restrictions on asbestos lessened or removed. Presumably, asbestos is now considered healthy, like mining and burning coal, or fracking for oil.


----------



## 95995

jweihl said:


> I understand that here in the US the current administration is seeking to have restrictions on asbestos lessened or removed. Presumably, asbestos is now considered healthy, like mining and burning coal, or fracking for oil.


OMG! Whilst undisturbed asbestos sheeting that is in good condition is not an issue, mining, construction etc. definitely are. After witnessing the trauma the Australian victims went through in order to sue (and many did not outlive the process) and the machinations of the companies involved, I am totally disgusted! If you are not familiar with the Australian situation, see here for an overview of court cases https://www.australianasbestosnetwork.org.au/asbestos-history/battles-2/court-cases/. Oh, and Australia's current Foreign Minister, Julie Bishop, a lawyer, was involved in some of the defence cases - something I suspect many Australian will never forget.


----------



## baldilocks

DejW said:


> Interesting to note that asbestos was known in ancient times. In the early 1900s it was proved to have fatal qualities. It seems the mining and building companies managed to hide this information.* It was used in great quantities in buildings in the1960s and 70s*, and it's now costing a fortune to knock them down due asbestos dust.
> 
> DejW


Much earlier. In the late 1940s and 1950s thousands of prefabricated buildings were built and occupied to overcome the shortage of housing occasioned by the WWII bombings. Many were built of precast concrete on a steel frame (Airey) and could be put up in about 16 hours; quite a number were built of asbestos sheeting (AIROH) and some are still in existence, even now. Prefabs, as they were known, were very popular with many people especially those who, previously, had had to share many basic facilities with neighbours. Those that I knew had indoor toilets, running water, heating (0DA boiler) via a couple of radiators - sheer luxury compared with what they had before. 

Prompted Charlie Chester to create popular skit-chants on the subject, including:

Down in the jungle, Living in a tent; Better than a prefab, No rent!​


----------



## Clic Clac

Thanks again everyone.

Think the 'A' word now strikes terror, but it's best to show it respect. I lost a good friend to it a few years ago. As an apprentice 40 years earlier his job was to saw the asbestos sheets to size. 

Painting it sounds like a good idea, and I will try to get some more info from the inspector. 
.


----------



## berkinet

Clic Clac said:


> ...Painting it sounds like a good idea, and I will try to get some more info from the inspector.


Basically a summary of previous posts, but... If the Asbestos is stable, as it is when used in the so-called fiber board and other cement products, there is no real danger -- unless it becomes cut, sawn or otherwise damaged. If it is in an inaccessible or difficult to access area, like overhead in a basement, you can safely just leave it as is. The painting process is typically for loose asbestos used around pipes, air flues, etc. If you do paint, you should probably use latex paints. That is generally recommended in the US. However, you should check with the local authorities to see what they suggest.

BTW, if you did have asbestos insulation, it its best removed. But, encapsulation with paint is a perfectly acceptable treatment.


----------



## 95995

And I just saw this Australian story from yesterday Tax on building materials could help fund asbestos removal, Federal Government advisory body says - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)


The issue really is that you will be renovating the property Clic Clac and you either need to take real care when doing so, or not buy it. And maybe I could yet develop mesothelioma given Lina Barber's experience.


----------



## Clic Clac

"Mr Woodhams uncovers asbestos" - but decided no protective gear was needed!! 

I'm a bit like the young guy in the article - we have to live somewhere. At the minute we are 150m from a power station which stinks every night - strangely just after dark, and a race track main road which saw a kid knocked down this week. 

I can remember my dad sending me out to dust the cabbage patch with this new stuff called DDT !!! 

Eat, drink & be merry EH, we're all going to die. 

First job on arrival will be to suss it out and low pressure spray with paint (I've found a company in Ireland who produce a special paint for the job. 




EverHopeful said:


> And I just saw this Australian story from yesterday Tax on building materials could help fund asbestos removal, Federal Government advisory body says - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
> 
> 
> The issue really is that you will be renovating the property Clic Clac and you either need to take real care when doing so, or not buy it. And maybe I could yet develop mesothelioma given Lina Barber's experience.


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> "Mr Woodhams uncovers asbestos" - but decided no protective gear was needed!!
> 
> I'm a bit like the young guy in the article - we have to live somewhere. At the minute we are 150m from a power station which stinks every night - strangely just after dark, and a race track main road which saw a kid knocked down this week.
> 
> I can remember my dad sending me out to dust the cabbage patch with this new stuff called DDT !!!
> 
> Eat, drink & be merry EH, we're all going to die.
> 
> First job on arrival will be to suss it out and low pressure spray with paint (I've found a company in Ireland who produce a special paint for the job.


Yep, just be careful when you work on it. I lived in one of the types of homes that appear in several of the photos in the article (internal walls, external walls and roof all made of asbestos sheeting) - yours will be nowhere near as loaded with asbestos and in light of the diagnostique what asbestos there is is stable.

So I guess you have signed and sent off the compromis, or will do so today. I have my fingers crossed that you will be in by beginning of September, but let your notaire know that you want to occupy before the rentrée because of your son and he may be able to either achieve that date or suggest some kind of arrangement that suits both purchaser and vendor.

:fingerscrossed:


----------



## Clic Clac

EverHopeful said:


> Yep, just be careful when you work on it. I lived in one of the types of homes that appear in several of the photos in the article (internal walls, external walls and roof all made of asbestos sheeting) - yours will be nowhere near as loaded with asbestos and in light of the diagnostique what asbestos there is is stable.
> 
> So I guess you have signed and sent off the compromis, or will do so today. I have my fingers crossed that you will be in by beginning of September, but let your notaire know that you want to occupy before the rentrée because of your son and he may be able to either achieve that date or suggest some kind of arrangement that suits both purchaser and vendor.
> 
> :fingerscrossed:


Hi EH.

I don't think we will make it for September 3rd, unless we risk it before completion and hit the campsite again! 

Mme can't get the Signing witnessed until next week.The solicitors finish work at the same time as she does!

Time is just slipping away, with another month's wasted money on rent & council tax.

Lots of info on asbestos out there:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/guidance/a16.pdf


----------



## Clic Clac

Wow. Unbelievable. 

Here's one place I wouldn't have thought to look for it:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44816805


----------



## Clic Clac

Quick update as I haven't been on for a while (busy offloading stuff via Fleabay  ).

Our signed 'Compromis' and cheque have landed at the notaire's office.

The owner was due to sign today.

EH - We pushed for an early completion to aim for La Rentree & the notaire said hopefully the end of August.

Then we noticed their office is closed for the last two weeks of August....


----------



## DejW

Hi Clicky!

Fingers crossed then ? I'm due to sign the acte next Tuesday which sounds simple, but entails a lot of planning.

I collect the van that I've hired from SuperU on Sat morning.
I've organised some local help to load the van....I've got more rubbish than I thought.
Leave Sunday morning with dog (long story!) and stay in Clermont Ferrrand Sunday night. I don't fancy 12 hours in a heavily laded van on roads full of holiday idiot drivers.
Arrive in the South Monday evening, stay with long suffering friends.
Sign Tue morning, and hope the chain gang of slaves (dear friends) come in the afternoon to unload.
Big party in the evening.....I've got the booze ready in boxes.
Then Wednesday is a day to recover
And then Thursday/ Friday I do the return journey to get the van back by 18:00h

.....and I'm really exhausted from packing boxes. Perhaps I'll teach the dog to drive?

The taxe d'hab is decided by who owns the house on 1 Jan; The tax foncière is prorated at the time of signing the act. Expect to pay X/12 for the months that you will own the house.

DejW


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> Quick update as I haven't been on for a while (busy offloading stuff via Fleabay  ).
> 
> Our signed 'Compromis' and cheque have landed at the notaire's office.
> 
> The owner was due to sign today.
> 
> EH - We pushed for an early completion to aim for La Rentree & the notaire said hopefully the end of August.
> 
> Then we noticed their office is closed for the last two weeks of August....


That's a shame, unless he plans to just go in just to finalise yours rather than actually opening his cabinet. Anyway, fingers crossed Clic Clac. Once the owner signs the compromis he can't back out, so at least you know you're getting there and with a very good chance of being in early September, before temperatures start to plummet.


----------



## Clic Clac

Thanks DejW. Bon Courage for next week. 

Think end of August is a bit optimistic EH, and I was already planning for mid-late September. We'll see, but still plenty to do here. 

The owner had actually signed the day before I wrote, so everything seems to be on course. 

I was looking out for you when the TDF came into town. Was that you standing next to the statue of Henry IV? 🙂 



EverHopeful said:


> That's a shame, unless he plans to just go in just to finalise yours rather than actually opening his cabinet. Anyway, fingers crossed Clic Clac. Once the owner signs the compromis he can't back out, so at least you know you're getting there and with a very good chance of being in early September, before temperatures start to plummet.


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> Thanks DejW. Bon Courage for next week.
> 
> Think end of August is a bit optimistic EH, and I was already planning for mid-late September. We'll see, but still plenty to do here.
> 
> The owner had actually signed the day before I wrote, so everything seems to be on course.
> 
> I* was looking out for you when the TDF came into town. Was that you standing next to the statue of Henry IV?* 🙂


LOL - it was like a sauna in Pau, although admittedly just as the Tour reached the finish a breeze sprung up very briefly. If I had chosen to watch them, it would have been on the Boulevard de Tourasse (more shade plus concrete blocks which make good seating - or perhaps up in Morlaàs where I have family who live 50m from yesterday's route), but no no and no, too damn hot. Oh, the traffic crazily trying to speed down the Avenue des Lilas from their previous vantage points that was really dangerous (not that they had a hope of making it) anyway!

My guess is you will settle early September, so make sure you will be ready to go.


----------



## Clic Clac

EverHopeful said:


> LOL - it was like a sauna in Pau, although admittedly just as the Tour reached the finish a breeze sprung up very briefly. If I had chosen to watch them, it would have been on the Boulevard de Tourasse (more shade plus concrete blocks which make good seating - or perhaps up in Morlaàs where I have family who live 50m from yesterday's route), but no no and no, too damn hot. Oh, the traffic crazily trying to speed down the Avenue des Lilas from their previous vantage points that was really dangerous (not that they had a hope of making it) anyway!
> 
> My guess is you will settle early September,* so make sure you will be ready to go*.


No French grammar allowed on here, EH. You've been over there too long.

Yes, just waiting for the Completion date from the notaire to see how things are going to progress. :clap2:


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> No French grammar allowed on here, EH. You've been over there too long.
> 
> Yes, just waiting for the Completion date from the notaire to see how things are going to progress. :clap2:


What are you doing about health cover? Even French returning to France have to wait 3 months or have a job (whichever comes first) to be covered.

I'll assume your partner declared her taxes in France for 2017.

Have you contacted the Mairie about getting your son into school? (It's supposed to be done several months in advance and, whilst school is compulsory, you still need to make arrangements.

Any other admin things ….


----------



## Clic Clac

EverHopeful said:


> What are you doing about health cover? Even French returning to France have to wait 3 months or have a job (whichever comes first) to be covered.
> 
> I'll assume your partner declared her taxes in France for 2017.
> 
> Have you contacted the Mairie about getting your son into school? (It's supposed to be done several months in advance and, whilst school is compulsory, you still need to make arrangements.
> 
> Any other admin things ….


Hello EH,

Sorry, been very busy for the last few days.

I got Mme to lean on the notaire & they offered 2 weeks time for completion!!

Too soon, as it happens, because the animals needed their passports sorting, so we will complete at the end of the month.

Waiting for the Mairie to return from holiday to register for school.

That will be next week. Meanwhile we are frantically searching for a form we were given when he finished school over there. Think that will smooth things if we can find it.

Not sure about health cover, will check with SWMBO.

Any tips on the Signing Meeting?

Did I once read somewhere that it is a bit of a 'do' in France & customary for me to give the sellers a bottle of something nice?:confused2:


----------



## DejW

Never heard of giving a bottle. After my signing last week....omg only a week,...I did thank the seller for selling the house to me, and he was pleased. He was well chuffed when I said I would invite him for an apéro when I've got things sorted out. He was aged 80+ and selling for health related reasons.

DejW 



Clic Clac said:


> Hello EH,
> 
> Sorry, been very busy for the last few days.
> 
> I got Mme to lean on the notaire & they offered 2 weeks time for completion!!
> 
> Too soon, as it happens, because the animals needed their passports sorting, so we will complete at the end of the month.
> 
> Waiting for the Mairie to return from holiday to register for school.
> 
> That will be next week. Meanwhile we are frantically searching for a form we were given when he finished school over there. Think that will smooth things if we can find it.
> 
> Not sure about health cover, will check with SWMBO.
> 
> Any tips on the Signing Meeting?
> 
> Did I once read somewhere that it is a bit of a 'do' in France & customary for me to give the sellers a bottle of something nice?:confused2:


----------



## berkinet

Clic Clac said:


> ...will check with SWMBO...


Now that you are (back) in france, isn't that EQDER - elle qui doit être respecter.


----------



## baldilocks

Do they still use the burning candle? or is/was that only for auctions?


----------



## 95995

berkinet said:


> Now that you are (back) in france, isn't that EQDER - elle qui doit être respecter.


Perhaps it's time to think about the grammar and stop relying on the infinitive?


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> Hello EH,
> 
> Sorry, been very busy for the last few days.
> 
> I got Mme to lean on the notaire & they offered 2 weeks time for completion!!
> 
> Too soon, as it happens, because the animals needed their passports sorting, so we will complete at the end of the month.
> 
> Waiting for the Mairie to return from holiday to register for school.
> 
> That will be next week. Meanwhile we are frantically searching for a form we were given when he finished school over there. Think that will smooth things if we can find it.
> 
> Not sure about health cover, will check with SWMBO.
> 
> Any tips on the Signing Meeting?
> 
> Did I once read somewhere that it is a bit of a 'do' in France & customary for me to give the sellers a bottle of something nice?:confused2:


That's VERY good news, Clic Clac.

I see you were actually not prepared in terms of the pet passports, nor the health cover issue - there are always loose things you can start tying up ahead 

Only time a bottle of something is given, AFAIK, is when there is an agent and he/she gives it to the buyer and/or the seller - as indeed they should given agency fees.

Congratulations and keep us posted as and when you can.

:cheer2:

You likely


----------



## berkinet

EverHopeful said:


> Perhaps it's time to think about the grammar and stop relying on the infinitive?


Perhaps it is time to offer some constructive help. Unlike some others here I do not have a french speaking spouse/parent/grand-parent/nanny/etc. and was not raised in a french speaking country. I try hard at french, and am fully able to communicate with anyone about anything, though perhaps without a very rich or nuanced vocabulary.

In the expression in question here, the grammar is not straight forward, at least not to me. But, as I usually do, I tried anyway and figured if I was too far off someone would offer a correction. However, just telling me my grammar is poor, which I already knew, is not very helpful. 

BTW, I was actually thinking that to correctly translate SWMBO to french would require the use of falloir and the subjunctive. But, I decided not to go there.


----------



## baldilocks

berkinet said:


> Perhaps it is time to offer some constructive help. Unlike some others here I do not have a french speaking spouse/parent/grand-parent/nanny/etc. and was not raised in a french speaking country. I try hard at french, and am fully able to communicate with anyone about anything, though perhaps without a very rich or nuanced vocabulary.
> 
> In the expression in question here, the grammar is not straight forward, at least not to me. But, as I usually do, I tried anyway and figured if I was too far off someone would offer a correction. However, just telling me my grammar is poor, which I already knew, is not very helpful.
> 
> BTW, I was actually thinking that to correctly translate SWMBO to french would require the use of falloir and the subjunctive. But, I decided not to go there.


I would have gone with "Elle qui doit être obéie"


----------



## berkinet

baldilocks said:


> I would have gone with "Elle qui doit être obéie"


And, it seems, you should know :wink:


----------



## 95995

berkinet said:


> Perhaps it is time to offer some constructive help. Unlike some others here I do not have a french speaking spouse/parent/grand-parent/nanny/etc. and was not raised in a french speaking country. I try hard at french, and am fully able to communicate with anyone about anything, though perhaps without a very rich or nuanced vocabulary.
> 
> In the expression in question here, the grammar is not straight forward, at least not to me. But, as I usually do, I tried anyway and figured if I was too far off someone would offer a correction. However, just telling me my grammar is poor, which I already knew, is not very helpful.
> 
> BTW, I was actually thinking that to correctly translate SWMBO to french would require the use of falloir and the subjunctive. But, I decided not to go there.


Please note I inserted a  after my comment. I guess it's still hot where you are. There would be many ways to say it, given it's not really a French expression, eg. celle qu'il faut obéir.


----------



## DejW

Perhaps....."Elle dans la maison" 'er indoors.

I'm sure we all TRY to be constructive.

DejW


----------



## berkinet

EverHopeful said:


> Please note I inserted a  after my comment. I guess it's still hot where you are.


I say the emoji. But, unfortunately, that didn't make the response any more useful.


----------



## 95995

berkinet said:


> I say the emoji. But, unfortunately, that didn't make the response any more useful.


Ah, did you actually want me to correct you?


----------



## berkinet

EverHopeful said:


> Ah, did you actually want me to correct you?


You have my permission to do so, yes.


----------



## 95995

berkinet said:


> You have my permission to do so, yes.


Teaching isn't my thing, esp since French is certainly not my mother tongue, but since I have your permission I might make the occasional suggestion. My apologies anyway.

:focus:


----------



## Bevdeforges

Or there is the version my French husband uses: La Patronne!

Has a nice ring to it, I think.
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## 95995

Bevdeforges said:


> Or there is the version my French husband uses: La Patronne!
> 
> Has a nice ring to it, I think.
> Cheers,
> Bev


And that IS a French expression :clap2:


----------



## Clic Clac

DejW said:


> Never heard of giving a bottle. After my signing last week....omg only a week,...I did thank the seller for selling the house to me, and he was pleased. He was well chuffed when I said I would invite him for an apéro when I've got things sorted out. He was aged 80+ and selling for health related reasons.
> 
> DejW


Hello DejW,

Glad all went smoothly for you. :clap2:


----------



## 95995

I guess you have arrived Clic Clac and that you will be very busy these first days. Hope all goes well


----------



## Clic Clac

Thanks EH. 

Yes, Clicky is back in town. 

Chaos for the first 5 days, but a kind man from the council got the water on for us first day, and the leccy on yesterday. 

Much more works in the house than I expected. Electrics aren't too bad, after I've replaced a couple of broken sockets and switches. 

Fun and games with the plumbing. More later. 

Love the place. So quiet & met a few of the neighbours already. 

Junior likes his school, they feed him steak lol. 





EverHopeful said:


> I guess you have arrived Clic Clac and that you will be very busy these first days. Hope all goes well


----------



## DejW

Good to hear you are settling down...good luck with the work.

DejW




Clic Clac said:


> Thanks EH.
> 
> Yes, Clicky is back in town.
> 
> Chaos for the first 5 days, but a kind man from the council got the water on for us first day, and the leccy on yesterday.
> 
> Much more works in the house than I expected. Electrics aren't too bad, after I've replaced a couple of broken sockets and switches.
> 
> Fun and games with the plumbing. More later.
> 
> Love the place. So quiet & met a few of the neighbours already.
> 
> Junior likes his school, they feed him steak lol.


----------



## baldilocks

Good to hear that you are getting on fine. I don't suppose that I'll be making any more moves other than to the old folks' home down the hill.


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> Thanks EH.
> 
> Yes, Clicky is back in town.
> 
> Chaos for the first 5 days, but a kind man from the council got the water on for us first day, and the leccy on yesterday.
> 
> Much more works in the house than I expected. Electrics aren't too bad, after I've replaced a couple of broken sockets and switches.
> 
> Fun and games with the plumbing. More later.
> 
> Love the place. So quiet & met a few of the neighbours already.
> 
> Junior likes his school, they feed him steak lol.


Great to hear 

And now, back to work with you!

Seriously, welcome back. Glad your son likes school and the canteen food - very handy right now that he gets a good main meal every school day, a little less for you parents to worry about at this point

And great to hear you got the water and plumbing on so quickly.

I'm sure most of your village will be more than happy to welcome a new family.


Cheers


----------



## Clic Clac

Thanks DejW. Still pushing water uphill. Literally as regards the hot water tank.

Baldi, you're not missing much. Moving is getting to be a real chore. Think this is about house number 27.

EH, yes the school are very pleased to have an extra one. Neighbours are very friendly - so far.

Not quite back yet as I must return to Blighty next week to empty the house. Just settling everyone in here before I go. Hopefully leaving them with hot water...


----------



## Gypsycob

Welcome home! 
GC x


----------



## Clic Clac

Ah, hello GC. 

Long time no hear. Hope things are well with you. Did you get moved? 

Yes, only been here for a week and it feels like home. Despite living in a bomb crater... xx 




Gypsycob said:


> Welcome home!
> GC x


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac - what's the problem with the hot water? Please let us know if it's sorted before you head back to the UK.


----------



## berkinet

EverHopeful said:


> Clic Clac - what's the problem with the hot water? Please let us know if it's sorted before you head back to the UK.


Just guessing, but usually when someone has a problem with hot water it’s because it’s not.


----------



## 95995

berkinet said:


> Just guessing, but usually when someone has a problem with hot water it’s because it’s not.


Well, of course, and I'm sure Clic Clac knows what I'm asking.


----------



## berkinet

EverHopeful said:


> Well, of course, and I'm sure Clic Clac knows what I'm asking.


It was a joke.


----------



## 95995

berkinet said:


> It was a joke.


Well, yes, I realised that, but it was pretty pointless (at best), don't you think?

There is a young child involve here, plus a race against the weather in that particular area of France. And perhaps someone could even have offered some helpful advice.


----------



## berkinet

EverHopeful said:


> Well, yes, I realised that, but it was pretty pointless (at best), don't you think? There is a young child involve here, plus a race against the weather in that particular area of France. And perhaps someone could even have offered some helpful advice.


Well, we lived through most of March with no heat or hot water, and finally installed a new chaudière in April. Now, just this week, the new system. has stopped making hot water, and has the local service team completely perplexed, Unfortunately, it seems I know more about the system than the local tech who has been out three times and determined that cleaning the over-pressure-relief valve was the cure. (It wasn't. The valve had _popped_ as intended because the internal pressure rose above 3.5 bars. But, the local tech doesn't seem to think that is an issue.) 

So yes, and possibly having similar problem to _Clicy_, I find a little humor helps. 

Beyond that, based on his previous posts on the saga of his recent home purchase, _Clicy_ seems competent, able to fend for himself and quite able to ask for help when he needs it. I wish him, and his family the best and suspect (ok, maybe, hope) the current issues are the things that tie a family together and provide fond memories for the future.


----------



## Clic Clac

Hello EH and Berki, 

At that time the problem was that there was no water leaving the tank via the hot feed. Sussed that one out, so now the hot tap runs but I can't get power to the tank to heat the water. 

No sign of a switch anywhere for the immersion heater. All I can see is the cable from the tank heading away through the floor. 

Is it common in France to wire directly into the fuse box and run the water 24/7 ? 

Been a bit distracted from that problem by a blocked toilet. Now a leading expert on Les WCs... 






EverHopeful said:


> Clic Clac - what's the problem with the hot water? Please let us know if it's sorted before you head back to the UK.


----------



## berkinet

Clic Clac said:


> ...Is it common in France to wire directly into the fuse box and run the water 24/7 ? ....


I am not sure about _common_, but we have a _dépendance_ (a former bergerie) that has been converted to a guest house. It has a standard electric storage heater that is wired directly to a dedicated circuit breaker in the electric panel. Of course, there is a thermostat in the water heater, so it doesn't ruin all the time. If your water heater is the instantaneous type, then it only runs when hot water is on somewhere. (Yes, I should have used the real french terms, but that sounds so... Peter Mayle.)

And congratulations of becoming a master of the clogged WC!


----------



## baldilocks

Hi Clicky, bonsoir
1. Have you taken the cover off the immersion heater and checked as to whether there is power actually coming in to the heater from the mains. If there is, check the thermostat because that could be the problem. If there is no power go to step 2, below

2. In the fuse box or w.h.y. is there a fuse, probably fairly highly rated, (possibly burnt out) and to which circuit you are unable to identify? If so, then that could be your immersion heater. 

3. Still in the fuse box is there a fuse, the purpose of which you cannot identify (i.e. it isn't lighting, or an electric cooker, or wall sockets, etc.?)


----------



## 95995

All I can say is that electric water heaters of this type often, perhaps normally, have a separate circuit breaker, and it's certainly what I expect to happen if/when I change over from gas. Find the circuit breaker and flick it on, then wait for the water to heat up a bit - the bigger the tank the longer that will take.


----------



## 95995

baldilocks said:


> Hi Clicky, bonsoir
> 1. Have you taken the cover off the immersion heater and checked as to whether there is power actually coming in to the heater from the mains. If there is, check the thermostat because that could be the problem. If there is no power go to step 2, below
> 
> 2. In the fuse box or w.h.y. is there a fuse, probably fairly highly rated, (possibly burnt out) and to which circuit you are unable to identify? If so, then that could be your immersion heater.
> 
> 3. Still in the fuse box is there a fuse, the purpose of which you cannot identify (i.e. it isn't lighting, or an electric cooker, or wall sockets, etc.?)


Well, I don(t believe he has a fuse box as such, but one of those with automatic circuit breakers as required in France (but perhaps that's what you meant) - IIRC he posted a photo on another thread.


----------



## EuroTrash

I have a separate circuit breaker for the ballon (I thought that was the norm?) and in fact that's what I use to switch it on and off. There is no other switch for it. The circuit breaker panel is in a convenient place so no hassle. I switch it on before I go to bed every other day or so (less often in very hot weather, more often if I've used a lot of hot water), and off again in the morning.


----------



## Clic Clac

Thanks for the input everyone.

Missed the replies yesterday via the Mobile, but I've got the desktop wired up now.

No sign of a switch anywhere, so I presume it is goes directly into the 'fusebox'.

Tested the connections across the breakers (as best I can) and all appear well.

Taken the cover off underneath the tank. Three wires 'looking correctly attached' (not brave enough to test these for power, Baldi), and a red button in the centre which I believe is to adjust the temperature.

Will try & tweak this tomorrow.


----------



## baldilocks

Clic Clac said:


> Thanks for the input everyone.
> 
> Missed the replies yesterday via the Mobile, but I've got the desktop wired up now.
> 
> No sign of a switch anywhere, so I presume it is goes directly into the 'fusebox'.
> 
> Tested the connections across the breakers (as best I can) and all appear well.
> 
> Taken the cover off underneath the tank. Three wires 'looking correctly attached' (not brave enough to test these for power, Baldi), and a red button in the centre which I believe is to adjust the temperature.
> 
> Will try & tweak this tomorrow.


If it doesn't have a milled edge or means of gripping it to turn it, it may well be a circuit breaker that has tripped because of a short (very common when the shell of the heater corrodes) or overheat.


----------



## suein56

Clic Clac said:


> Is it common in France to wire directly into the fuse box and run the water 24/7 ?


It was common for water to be heated 24/7 .. also for the oil-fired CH to run 24/7 with no timer switch and only a single thermostat .. usually found in the hall.


----------



## Clic Clac

The saga of the immersion heater is still running.
Even if the hot water isn't...

I didn't want to start messing about with it too much before my return to the UK, but started to tackle it again last weekend.

As they are basically a large kettle with only the heater element and a thermostat as working parts, I thought I would start there.

I stopped the cold water supply to it, and instructed everyone to use the hot water tap in order to make use of the water as I drained it.

Opened up the drain valve and took about two litres off, which I thought was a little strange, then undid the bolts holding the element in place underneath the tank.

Placed said bucket underneath, gave the element a waggle, and hey-presto out came the other 198 litres at full pitch.

I'm surprised you didn't hear the language. 

Survived the deluge as luckily the heater is contained within a hall cupboard, like a built-in wardrobe, with holes through the floor for the pipes, so all the water disappeared through.

Checked the thermostat, which seemed to be ok, didn't know how to check the heater but as it was dated 1999 I presumed that it had had its day.

When I realised how expensive it was going to be to replace it, I decided to play safe and get M.Le Plombier in just to double check that it was actually the problem.

No, according to MLP, the element was ok, but (and here Baldi was on the money), there was no power supply coming in.

As the electric cable disappears under the floor, he set off to inspect the fusebox.
No sign of a problem, but no sign of said cable either.

So, MLP with at least his allocation of three score and ten years, set off mole-like under the house via the little rabbit hole at one end. After much shouting and shuffling about he reappeared into the daylight to tell us that he had found the cable, but it's not actually joined to anything!

He is set to return next week accompanied by MLE who will join the cable to the fusebox. :fingerscrossed:


----------



## DejW

hi Clicky!

Well, yes, moving house is such FUN, isn t it.

I've got a similar story here. The inventory of the things I bought nearly blind with the house included a washing machine. When I arrived I found a rather elderly machine that was beautifully yellowed with age.....but no power, no plumbing. I rigged up temporary plumbing, including the waste going to a hole in the earth by the back door. A few days ago I did find the cold water in and waste out, well hidden behind some shelves and scrap wood, and bare wires going nowhere......yet another little project to entertain me. 

I suppose we are in the same boat, no time to going knocking over little old ladies in the street?

DejW


----------



## Clic Clac

DejW said:


> hi Clicky!
> 
> Well, yes, moving house is such FUN, isn t it.
> 
> I've got a similar story here. The inventory of the things I bought nearly blind with the house included a washing machine. When I arrived I found a rather elderly machine that was beautifully yellowed with age.....but no power, no plumbing. I rigged up temporary plumbing, including the waste going to a hole in the earth by the back door. A few days ago I did find the cold water in and waste out, well hidden behind some shelves and scrap wood, and bare wires going nowhere......yet another little project to entertain me.
> 
> I suppose we are in the same boat, no time to going knocking over little old ladies in the street?
> 
> DejW


Hello DejW,

Yes, plenty of projects to hand.

My problem is that everything has been started and then left by the previous owner (or two), and I'm not sure how far along it went or even if it was done correctly.

I had a flickering strip light in the kitchen and decided to replace the starter, before buying a new bulb.

As I turned the bulb to remove it the sides holding it crumbled and fell to the floor...

Next fun with French wiring as there are green & blue wires coming out of the ceiling, joining the blue and black wires in the light.

I believe pre-1970 'live' was green? Only problem was that the green joined to the blue in the lamp & the blue from the ceiling was joined to the black. 

Maybe why it looked a little 'brûlé' around there? :mad2:

I put the new one up with blue-blue, and green to brown. It works ok but I wouldn't like to touch it until I've spoken to M. Le Electrician next week.

Any good 'Sparkies' on here?

I must say the 'new' LED strip lights are excellent compared to the old flourescent tubes. I returned home with one which was only half the wattage of the original (as the price doubled to the next size), but it fires up instantly and gives plenty of light.


----------



## berkinet

Clic Clac said:


> I put the new one up with blue-blue, and green to brown. It works ok but I wouldn't like to touch it until I've spoken to M. Le Electrician next week.
> 
> Any good 'Sparkies' on here?


Yes. And my advice is to follow your instincts and wait for M.LE.


----------



## 95995

Pleased to hear you are now going with the professionals, Clic Clac. 


I think in future I'll refer to your house as Fawlty Towers and you as Basil.


----------



## DejW

Yes, electricity can be simple, and very quickly gets complicated, usually in confined dark, awkward spaces. The theory is not complex, but as you have found out, what do you do with random wires coming out of a hole? You don't know if the last chap to work on it was a superb specialist, a moron, or someone setting a death trap for you.

One of the things I've learnt over the years is to know your limits, when you are in danger of exceeding them that it the time to call in a professional.

DejW




Clic Clac said:


> Hello DejW,
> 
> Yes, plenty of projects to hand.
> 
> My problem is that everything has been started and then left by the previous owner (or two), and I'm not sure how far along it went or even if it was done correctly.
> 
> I had a flickering strip light in the kitchen and decided to replace the starter, before buying a new bulb.
> 
> As I turned the bulb to remove it the sides holding it crumbled and fell to the floor...
> 
> Next fun with French wiring as there are green & blue wires coming out of the ceiling, joining the blue and black wires in the light.
> 
> I believe pre-1970 'live' was green? Only problem was that the green joined to the blue in the lamp & the blue from the ceiling was joined to the black.
> 
> Maybe why it looked a little 'brûlé' around there? :mad2:
> 
> I put the new one up with blue-blue, and green to brown. It works ok but I wouldn't like to touch it until I've spoken to M. Le Electrician next week.
> 
> Any good 'Sparkies' on here?
> 
> I must say the 'new' LED strip lights are excellent compared to the old flourescent tubes. I returned home with one which was only half the wattage of the original (as the price doubled to the next size), but it fires up instantly and gives plenty of light.


----------



## Clic Clac

Sorry for the delay again folks (for those of you that were waiting  ).

When I land on the site any threads with new comments are highlighted, but for some reason lately mine isn't, so it takes me a while to realise that I've received a reply. 

You are right DejW, my biggest problem is lack of faith in the previous two owners who have "had a go at it", started every job and finished none.

That's why I wasn't too keen to start poking about to see if there was a live feed coming in.

Not sure about Fawlty Towers E.H. but certainly "The House that Jacques Built". 

Love, Basil. :kiss:


----------



## baldilocks

The trouble is for those of us not onsite, we can only guess at what you are seeing. OK you can tell us what YOU see but it might not be the same as those of us who have experience and knowledge would see. I have been an electrician but not a Spanish nor a French electrician and apart from the regs being different the way of working is also different so what I might think what I see indicates, the way of working might mean it is something entirely different. If you know what I mean.


----------



## Clic Clac

baldilocks said:


> The trouble is for those of us not onsite, we can only guess at what you are seeing. OK you can tell us what YOU see but it might not be the same as those of us who have experience and knowledge would see. I have been an electrician but not a Spanish nor a French electrician and apart from the regs being different the way of working is also different so what I might think what I see indicates, the way of working might mean it is something entirely different. If you know what I mean.


Hi Baldi.

I saw these two dangling from the ceiling, en route to the flourescent light.

p.s. Yes the 200 polystyrene ceiling tiles are next on the hit-list.


----------



## baldilocks

Clic Clac said:


> Hi Baldi.
> 
> I saw these two dangling from the ceiling, en route to the flourescent light.
> 
> p.s. Yes the 200 polystyrene ceiling tiles are next on the hit-list.


My solution would be to do a complete rewire since it would appear that you have a mixture of some 18th century, 19th century 20th century wiring and who knows what else. Maybe a little costly but dodgy electrics which are an unknown quantity can be dangerous and could result in not only death but the whole place catching fire together with everything in the place. Not sure, under the circumstances, that the insurance company would pay out so don't get any ideas.


----------



## Clic Clac

baldilocks said:


> My solution would be to do a complete rewire since it would appear that you have a mixture of some 18th century, 19th century 20th century wiring and who knows what else. Maybe a little costly but dodgy electrics which are an unknown quantity can be dangerous and could result in not only death but the whole place catching fire together with everything in the place. Not sure, under the circumstances, that the insurance company would pay out so don't get any ideas.


Yes, you are correct Baldi, just the slight problem of being Bernie Flint at present.

As mentioned all the ceiling tiles are being stripped off to reduce the risk, and only a coat of emulsion added to the walls as the electrics will be the first big job on the long list.


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> Yes, you are correct Baldi, just the slight problem of being Bernie Flint at present.
> 
> As mentioned all the ceiling tiles are being stripped off to reduce the risk, and only a coat of emulsion added to the walls as the electrics will be the first big job on the long list.


Meaning that the home is not currently insured for fire or anything relating to the electrics. (You would definitely not be covered.)


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> Yes, you are correct Baldi, just the slight problem of being Bernie Flint at present.
> 
> As mentioned all the ceiling tiles are being stripped off to reduce the risk, and only a coat of emulsion added to the walls as the electrics will be the first big job on the long list.


Then, unless you have a diagnostic report that states that the electrical system is OK, your insurance will definitely not cover you for fire or any damage related to the system. I would suggested you get an estimate from MLE so that you at least have an idea of how much money you need to get together.


----------



## zipsister

I've done a fair amount of simple electric jobs on houses I've owned, but always accepted my limitations. Once to save money I consulted the sparky about laying down the wiring for a stove and other parts of the house afterwhich he came and checked my work (got the thumbs up there) then he simply connected all the ends to their respective appliances and at the meter board. Saved quite a lot of money that way while meeting regulations and satisfying the house insurance details.


----------



## Clic Clac

EverHopeful said:


> Then, unless you have a diagnostic report that states that the electrical system is OK, your insurance will definitely not cover you for fire or any damage related to the system. I would suggested you get an estimate from MLE so that you at least have an idea of how much money you need to get together.


No sign of him yet EH. 
Think MLP must have mentioned the part about scurrying around underneath the house.


----------



## Clic Clac

zipsister said:


> I've done a fair amount of simple electric jobs on houses I've owned, but always accepted my limitations. Once to save money I consulted the sparky about laying down the wiring for a stove and other parts of the house afterwhich he came and checked my work (got the thumbs up there) then he simply connected all the ends to their respective appliances and at the meter board. Saved quite a lot of money that way while meeting regulations and satisfying the house insurance details.


That's what I'm thinking at the moment Zippy.

If MLE doesn't phone in the next couple of days I'm going to buy some flex and run it from the Immersion through the inside of the house and leave it next to the 'fusebox' (must learn the trade term) for connection.

I can copy and replace what's in front of me, but like DejW said, it's the not knowing if it was done correctly in the first place.

Actually I think the Very Old stuff will probably have been done correctly when the house was built, it's just the stuff from the last 10 years when the would-be DIYers have messed everything up.


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> That's what I'm thinking at the moment Zippy.
> 
> If MLE doesn't phone in the next couple of days I'm going to buy some flex and run it from the Immersion through the inside of the house and leave it next to the 'fusebox' (must learn the trade term) for connection.
> 
> I can copy and replace what's in front of me, but like DejW said, it's the not knowing if it was done correctly in the first place.
> 
> Actually I think the Very Old stuff will probably have been done correctly when the house was built, it's just the stuff from the last 10 years when the would-be DIYers have messed everything up.


You can rest assured that the very old stuff does not meet current standards and the wires may not really be colour coded, even if they are different colours.


----------



## Clic Clac

EverHopeful said:


> You can rest assured that the very old stuff does not meet current standards and the wires may not really be colour coded, even if they are different colours.


Yes EH, I do bear in mind that as the 'DIYers' were happy to run a red water pipe to the toilet, they may have used whatever was available in the electric wire box.

Having said that, I think the electrics here are better than in the dump we were paying 600 a month for when we lived here last time.

The light switches there would often spark across as you switched them on.


----------



## EuroTrash

Clic Clac said:


> Y
> The light switches there would often spark across as you switched them on.


Mine do that. I thought it must be normal


----------



## Clic Clac

EuroTrash said:


> Mine do that. I thought it must be normal


I think it is in France. 

Early morning wake-up call. :clock:


----------



## zipsister

From houses we have looked at to buy and reports I have read the concensus seems to be that none of the old light switches get approval from the elec. inspectors, even if they do look more classy with their brass detail. Probably for the reasons just mentioned. Seeing sparks would be enough to see me running down to Brico's.


----------



## Clic Clac

Clic Clac said:


> That's what I'm thinking at the moment Zippy.
> 
> If MLE doesn't phone in the next couple of days I'm going to buy some flex and run it from the Immersion through the inside of the house and leave it next to the 'fusebox' (must learn the trade term) for connection.
> 
> I can copy and replace what's in front of me, but like DejW said, it's the not knowing if it was done correctly in the first place.
> 
> Actually I think the Very Old stuff will probably have been done correctly when the house was built, it's just the stuff from the last 10 years when the would-be DIYers have messed everything up.


No sign of MLP or MLE for about 10 days , with MmeCC breathing fire and boiling the kettle incessantly.

I bought a new length of cable, heavier than the original as MrBrico advised me that it was Just OK. Arrived home and had a lateral thought:

The front bedroom had a box socket 'sat' on the floor, attached to a new cable which disappeared through a large hole in the wall to the next bedroom and out of that wall...to the fusebox.

Tested the socket, then removed it and pulled the cable out, back to the fusebox and diverted it round to the water tank. Nothing for a long time, then next morning HOT WATER after 4 weeks.

Was just completing a nice 'tidy up' job, putting the cable onto the wall and through the cupboard woodwork when there was a knock at the door. MLP 

Next job is to fit the new :emptybath:


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> No sign of MLP or MLE for about 10 days , with MmeCC breathing fire and boiling the kettle incessantly.
> 
> I bought a new length of cable, heavier than the original as MrBrico advised me that it was Just OK. Arrived home and had a lateral thought:
> 
> The front bedroom had a box socket 'sat' on the floor, attached to a new cable which disappeared through a large hole in the wall to the next bedroom and out of that wall...to the fusebox.
> 
> Tested the socket, then removed it and pulled the cable out, back to the fusebox and diverted it round to the water tank. Nothing for a long time, then next morning HOT WATER after 4 weeks.
> 
> Was just completing a nice 'tidy up' job, putting the cable onto the wall and through the cupboard woodwork when there was a knock at the door. MLP
> 
> Next job is to fit the new :emptybath:


Glad you finally have hot water, but hope you asked MLE for an estimate to get the wiring up to standard while he was there.


----------



## baldilocks

EverHopeful said:


> Glad you finally have hot water, but hope you asked MLE for an estimate to get the wiring up to standard while he was there.


but it wasn't the MLE but the MLP who came.


----------



## zipsister

If in doubt in terms of safety...disconnect (after turning off at the box, of course) then get the sparky back and ask him/her to connect and check. They might just end up repeating what you have done but then you can tick it off in term of insurance. Still be cheaper than finding no insurance cover. Just a suggestion. Congrats, by the way.


----------



## zipsister

...also, I would hope that the cable that you used for the hot water service is thicker than a normal household power socket cable as it would be drawing a greater wattage similar to an electric oven.


----------



## DejW

Are you sure?

DejW



zipsister said:


> ...also, I would hope that the cable that you used for the hot water service is thicker than a normal household power socket cable as it would be drawing a greater wattage similar to an electric oven.


----------



## zipsister

Easy to test. Feel the cable when its heating the water element. If it's very very hot then it's telling you something.


----------



## Clic Clac

zipsister said:


> ...also, I would hope that the cable that you used for the hot water service is thicker than a normal household power socket cable as it would be drawing a greater wattage similar to an electric oven.


Hi Zippy,

Yes, the cable to the socket is actually a heavier gauge than the new stuff I bought.

Not sure what they were planning to run from it but I got the box checked out & was told that if it was drawing too much current it would immediately 'Trip'.

How do you folk run your water heaters?

At the moment ours is on 24/7 and I am monitoring the electric being used.
Do some of you find that only running it overnight is sufficient and cheaper?


----------



## 95995

Clic Clac said:


> Hi Zippy,
> 
> Yes, the cable to the socket is actually a heavier gauge than the new stuff I bought.
> 
> Not sure what they were planning to run from it but I got the box checked out & was told that if it was drawing too much current it would immediately 'Trip'.
> 
> How do you folk run your water heaters?
> 
> At the moment ours is on 24/7 and I am monitoring the electric being used.
> Do some of you find that only running it overnight is sufficient and cheaper?


I unfortunately don't have an electric hot water heater, but most people run at night on the cheaper tarrif, heures creuses (check what you have via your electricity supplier), but you need a larger enough tank for the number of people in the home and your anticipated water usage. That means that taking hot baths can be an issue. But you should always have hot water for quick showers in the morning.


----------



## Bevdeforges

We've always had the split tarifs for the electric service, and so we've run the water heater mostly at night. But you do want to make sure you have a well insulated water tank. (Or even get one of those "cozies" - sort of a quilted wrap for the tank.)

We now have a solar assisted water heater where the sun heats the water by day, and then the electricity only needs to run by night (if even then) to maintain the temperature in the tank.
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## zipsister

We are renting at present and I believe the owners have got it set to heat in the evening so that it is ready for the morning. That's the way most are run in Australia, as well; run it when electricity is cheaper, is the theory.


----------



## 95995

zipsister said:


> We are renting at present and I believe the owners have got it set to heat in the evening so that it is ready for the morning. That's the way most are run in Australia, as well; run it when electricity is cheaper, is the theory.


Yes, but I think most people in Australia these days have solar hot water. I did, but I could turn it to off peak, which I only did a couple of times a year given solar hot water systems do heat even on days that are lightly overcast with no sun.


----------



## baldilocks

When the sun is warm enough we use solar, otherwise we use instantaneous gas boiler running of gas bottles.


----------



## zipsister

Most Australians prefer solar power when asked, but only 20% actually have it with some state governments like WA actually winding back grants and subsidies for roof solar panels in favour of batteries systems. I don't know how long some Oz expats have been out of the country but currently Australian electricity costs are an example of outright extorsion and is a good example of what happens when a country sells off its utilities; higher prices with the same lame excuse for the need to up costs to build infrastructure.


----------



## 95995

zipsister said:


> Most Australians prefer solar power when asked, but only 20% actually have it with some state governments like WA actually winding back grants and subsidies for roof solar panels in favour of batteries systems. I don't know how long some Oz expats have been out of the country but currently Australian electricity costs are an example of outright extorsion and is a good example of what happens when a country sells off its utilities; higher prices with the same lame excuse for the need to up costs to build infrastructure.


I have been out of the country for some years, but I installed my solar system *before *the grants were available in Qld. That said, the installer at the time offered interest free loans over a year or two. I am aware of electricity costs in Australia, but you better believe that they are definitely heading that way in France, and gas is even more expensive.


----------



## zipsister

A small cartel is controlling gas in Australia. Moomba gas fields (where my sister works in 60 degree heat) exports gas to Japan where it is far cheaper than in Australia; go figure! This cartel is gouging the prices to make up for losses in overseas contracts where there is actually a global glut in gas. Similar to petrol; there is a humungous amount of untapped oil but OPEC is cutting production to increase revenue. It also helps to push up prices when someone on Wall St shouts 'Middle East crisis...oil supply at risk".


----------



## Gypsycob

Clic Clac said:


> How do you folk run your water heaters?
> 
> At the moment ours is on 24/7 and I am monitoring the electric being used.
> Do some of you find that only running it overnight is sufficient and cheaper?


My water bill rose from 700 to 3600 euros per year when my wood burner broke and I had an electric water heater on 24/7. I did have a busy chambres d'hotes though with an average of 10 people showering per day!

Where I'm renting now only runs overnight and there's always piping hot water.

Good luck,
GC x


----------



## Clic Clac

Bevdeforges said:


> We've always had the split tarifs for the electric service, and so we've run the water heater mostly at night. But you do want to make sure you have a well insulated water tank.* (Or even get one of those "cozies" - sort of a quilted wrap for the tank.)*
> 
> We now have a solar assisted water heater where the sun heats the water by day, and then the electricity only needs to run by night (if even then) to maintain the temperature in the tank.
> Cheers,
> Bev


Thanks everyone.

Yes, I'd wondered about insulting the tank.

Our old immersion heater when I was growing up used to have a 'tea cosy' around it, but I've never seen one in France and as the tank isn't hot to touch I thought that it must be constructed differently, particularly as the hot water comes off the bottom here, but the top in England.

p.s. Many, if not all, in England are now supplied with a thick, hard foam around them with just the element and pipework sticking out.


----------



## VERITE1

Clic Clac said:


> Thanks everyone.
> 
> Yes, I'd wondered about insulting the tank.


Let us know if it works, cheaper than calling out a plumber! (In French or in English?)


----------



## baldilocks

Clic Clac said:


> Thanks everyone.
> 
> Yes, I'd wondered about insulting the tank.
> 
> Our old immersion heater when I was growing up used to have a 'tea cosy' around it, but I've never seen one in France and as the tank isn't hot to touch I thought that it must be constructed differently, particularly as the hot water comes off the bottom here, but the top in England.
> 
> p.s. Many, if not all, in England are now supplied with a thick, hard foam around them with just the element and pipework sticking out.


I don't understand the hot water pipe coming from the bottom, where the tank is coolest. It sounds as though it has been plumbed in incorrectly.


----------



## Clic Clac

baldilocks said:


> I don't understand the hot water pipe coming from the bottom, where the tank is coolest. It sounds as though it has been plumbed in incorrectly.


Hi Baldi,

No, all the fittings are on the bottom of the tank.
I presume it's a tank within a tank.

The cold water feed is on the right, and the hot water leaves on the left.


----------



## 95995

The tank is almost certainly insulated and you don't need to wrap it.


Baldi
Seems UK systems and very out of date. It's perfectly normal in this day and age for all the fittings to be at or near the bottom.


----------



## VERITE1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clic Clac View Post
Thanks everyone.

Yes, I'd wondered about insulting the tank.




Let us know if it works, cheaper than calling out a plumber! (In French or in English?)


No good, huh? 

Maybe try asking nicely??


----------



## 95995

baldilocks said:


> I don't understand *the hot water pipe coming from the bottom, where the tank is coolest*. It sounds as though it has been plumbed in incorrectly.


Surely it depends where the element is located.


----------



## DejW

I insulted the water tank and it got really hot and bothered.

DejW


----------



## VERITE1

DejW said:


> I insulted the water tank and it got really hot and bothered.
> 
> DejW



Good luck with that, I have been flogging it to death since this morning. :rant:


----------



## baldilocks

EverHopeful said:


> Surely it depends where the element is located.


No. Basic science - hot water rises, irrespective of where the pipework is. There must be internal pipework so that all the external plumbing is at one end of the tank which would, in fact, make sense. Our tank (for the solar) lies on its side but the hot water outlet is at the top and cold water inlet is at the bottom.


----------



## baldilocks

VERITE said:


> Good luck with that, I have been flogging it to death since this morning. :rant:


and you still haven't flogged it? Perhaps your price is too high.


----------



## VERITE1

baldilocks said:


> and you still haven't flogged it? Perhaps your price is too high.


You could be right. Oh well....:tsk:


----------



## suein56

VERITE said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Clic Clac View Post
> Yes, I'd wondered about insulting the tank.
> 
> Let us know if it works, cheaper than calling out a plumber! (In French or in English?)


Don't give up V all is not lost .. I noticed your reply, which made me smile, but I didn't have time to post.
Some of us appreciate your humour.


----------



## VERITE1

suein56 said:


> Don't give up V all is not lost .. I noticed your reply, which made me smile, but I didn't have time to post.
> Some of us appreciate your humour.



Aaaaaw.......


----------



## Clic Clac

I've dusted off this 'old chestnut' as I'm still planning on heading West.

I was ready to go last spring, but then all plans 'went west' , as many folk found.

To begin with I'm moving South in July. About 300 metres to be exact. 

As with all plans in ClickyLand, things get out of sync.
A couple of weeks ago I was offered a house in the village, and then a second one last week. 😵
*@conky2* - What is it they say about London buses?

I've decided to take one of them as I can be moved in for 350 notes if I move my own things.
I moved everything from England so it shouldn't be too difficult.
That will ensure I have somewhere to go to if xMadame gets a quick sale on this house, and I still don't know how long Covid is going to drag on for,
so it's a bit of insurance & independence for me and my new CdS. 

Then I hope to do a 'Reccy' of the Vendée and Charante in September if things have settled down. Big if, maybe.


----------



## Poloss

You're welcome to drop in for a cup of tea on your way over


----------



## Clic Clac

Poloss said:


> You're welcome to drop in for a cup of tea on your way over


Careful.

A lady in Florida phoned our office one Wednesday in 1986 and said that.

The following Wednesday I was letting her take me out to lunch. 😎


----------



## EuroTrash

Good luck with the move Clics  
I saw Baldi's name up this thread, is he still around? Haven't seen him on any recent threads?


----------



## Clic Clac

EuroTrash said:


> Good luck with the move Clics
> I saw Baldi's name up this thread, is he still around? Haven't seen him on any recent threads?


Thanks ET. 
It's all down to the translation. 😉

No, I haven't heard from Baldi in a while. 
Hope all is ok.


----------



## bhamham

Yes, good luck with the move CC 

Great thread! Lots of good information and really entertaining


----------



## Clic Clac

July came & went. As it often does.
I really couldn't be bothered to move. So I didn't.

I reverted to the initial property, which has a garden and has been empty since last January.
I say 'empty'. Without persons inside might be a better phrase.

Apparently the last jokers did 'a moonlight' and took the keys with them.
So it's still empty. And I'm still waiting.

I have a bad feeling it will drag on forever.
I wonder if the landlord is going to have to follow the same process as they would for a 'normal' possession order with someone living there.
Could the _trêve hivernale _be bypassed if they can prove abandonment of the property?


----------



## Clic Clac

The house 'sold' last week, so xM is happy.

Smeggie - 30% profit on a French property deal. 🥂 

Won't be trying it again, though.

The guy arrived yesterday to do the diagnostic.
He was the one who did it 3 years ago, so it didn't take him long.
He managed to drag it out for 25 minutes to look busy, but it will be pretty much the same report as last time.
Waste of money as the place is going to be stripped out anyway.

If I move out before Jan 2nd will xM be hit with a Tax d'Hab bill for a second property?


----------



## Poloss

Clic Clac said:


> The house 'sold' last week, so xM is happy.
> 
> If I move out before Jan 2nd will xM be hit with a Tax d'Hab bill for a second property?


The occupant pays taxe d'hab - most people are exempted - maybe you mean "taxe foncière"?
The registered owner as of 1st of January is liable for the whole year's taxe foncière
Usually it's a pro-rata arrangement handled by the notaire;
if the definite sale act is done on the 10th of January, the seller will pay the whole year's taxe foncière
but the notaire will ask the buyer for a cheque reimbursing the seller for 10th Jan to 31st December


----------



## Clic Clac

[


Poloss said:


> The occupant pays taxe d'hab - most people are exempted - maybe you mean "taxe foncière"?


Hi Poloss. 

No, i meant Tax d'Hab. 🤗

I was wondering what the situation is for empty second properties,or is it purely a tax on persons ?


----------



## BackinFrance

If empty on 1 January the person who owns it at that date is the person who will be billed.


----------



## BackinFrance

Oh, and any tenant has to have given proper notice and vacated no later than 31 December, otherwise the tenant is liable for taxe d'habitation.


----------



## Befuddled

Clic Clac said:


> [
> 
> 
> Hi Poloss.
> 
> No, i meant Tax d'Hab. 🤗
> 
> I was wondering what the situation is for empty second properties,or is it purely a tax on persons ?


My OH is having to pay Tax Hab for a place that is uninhabitable, and been empty for years. Oddly, she has not had to pay the tax even when she lived in it because of low income. Now she is battling to get the exemption again. Tax office and Mairie are both unhelpful. Given enough time it will fall down and look like so many other ruins in France. I wonder if the owners of those are still having tax Hab and Fonciere sucked out of their bank accounts.


----------



## Clic Clac

Thanks BiF & BeF 😀🤗

I had something in the back of my mind that it passes back to the owner if unoccupied.

I seem to remember that I was in a rush to leave "the Witch's" house last time we were here so that she got a bill for the Td'H.

Probably won't be moving before Feb, but thought I'd double check.


----------



## Poloss

According to _service public, _80% of homes are exempt from taxe d'hab on their main residence.

For a single person, a _revenu fiscal de référence_ equal to or exceeding 27 761 € 
will make you liable for paying taxe d'hab.
If you include your son, that's 1.5 parts = 35 986 € 








Taxe d'habitation : qui doit la payer en 2022 ?


Réforme de la taxe d'habitation : qui doit encore la payer en 2022 ?




www.service-public.fr





You are the occupant, not xM - unless there's a schmilblick that I haven't understood ...


----------



## Clic Clac

Poloss said:


> *You** are the occupant, not xM* - unless there's a schmilblick that I haven't understood ...


Yes I know. 😅

Things are fine at the moment as I'm exempt, but I wasn't sure if she would receive a bill if I move out before the end of December.


----------



## Clic Clac

The _Compromis _has been signed so I'll be on the move soon.

xM got away with 150€ for the diagnostic, which was probably as good as she could have hoped for.

What about the old "Sold As Seen" ?

I seem to remember at the sale day meeting with the notaire he recited that to both parties.
Will a 'verbal' be ok or does it need to be within the final sale document to prevent any comeback?


----------



## BackinFrance

I think the diagnostiques are now mandatory.


----------



## Clic Clac

BackinFrance said:


> I think the diagnostiques are now mandatory.


Yes they are, but it was a bit of a farce as a builder has bought it and didn't require the faults pointing out to him.
It will be stripped back to 4 walls, then everything replaced.
I've made him promise to make lots of noise to help the new neighbour settle in next door. 🥂 🤣


----------



## BackinFrance

The notaire will look after the sale documents, but it would probably be best to include in the compromis that the buyer accepts them. Still, if the buyer did take exception to the diagnostics, he could be expected to raise the issues at the signing of the compromis.


----------



## Poloss

Clic Clac said:


> The _Compromis _has been signed so I'll be *on the move* soon.


As in the title of the thread: "*where next?*"


Clic Clac said:


> xM got away with 150€ for the diagnostic, which was probably as good as she could have hoped for.


Many diags are valid several years so don't need to be done again - anyhow 150€ is a reasonable standard flat rate for complete diags


Clic Clac said:


> What about the old "Sold As Seen" ?
> I seem to remember at the sale day meeting with the notaire he recited that to both parties.
> Will a 'verbal' be ok or does it need to be within the final sale document to prevent any comeback?


On our last compromis we had this clause under CONDITIONS DE LA VENTE, 
just after: Garantie d'éviction and Propriété - jouissance_
Etat de l'Immeuble
L’acquéreur prendra l'immeuble dans l'état où il se trouvera le jour de l'entrée en jouissance, sans recours contre le vendeur pour quelque cause qu'il soit, notamment son bon ou mauvais état ou encore ses vices cachés.
De même il devra faire son affaire personnelle des différences de contenance, excéderaient-elles même un vingtième._

The purchaser shall take the property in the state in which it will be on the day of entry into possession, without recourse against the vendor for any reason whatsoever, in particular its good or bad condition or its hidden defects.
Likewise, he shall be personally responsible for any differences in size, even if they exceed one twentieth.


----------



## Clic Clac

Poloss said:


> On our last compromis we had this clause under CONDITIONS DE LA VENTE,
> just after: Garantie d'éviction and Propriété - jouissance
> _Etat de l'Immeuble
> L’acquéreur prendra l'immeuble dans l'état où il se trouvera le jour de l'entrée en jouissance, sans recours contre le vendeur pour quelque cause qu'il soit, notamment son bon ou mauvais état ou encore ses vices cachés.
> De même il devra faire son affaire personnelle des différences de contenance, excéderaient-elles même un vingtième._


Thanks Poloss.
I'll send a copy to xM.



Poloss said:


> As in the title of the thread: "*where next?*"


Probably should have said "so I'll *finally* be on the move soon". 🥂 
To be fair there's very few threads on here still referring to the title after 300+ posts. 😊


The odds-on favourite at the moment is* la vendée.*

I always associate it with wind. 

Does anyone have experience of the coastal strip?


----------



## conky2

Clic Clac said:


> I always associate it with wind.


I believe someone from La Vendée is indeed the current European farting champion, but don't quote me on that.


----------



## Clic Clac

I thought I'd 'give it 5 minutes' before following Conky. 😊

A lot of talking & thinking up to the year end.
Still as confused as ever. 

It's down to Head v. Heart, Stick or Twist. France v. England, with Junior as the priority.

*School* : England. Purely because I've already lived in the town before, and I know the schools. I'd be gambling again on an unknown French school.
*Healthcare* : France. Seems to be total chaos in the UK, even allowing for covid.
*Business* : England. Easier for me to work & build the business.
*Housing* : France. Cheaper to rent, and no chance of me ever buying one in England.


What is sorted :

Leaving Les Vosges asap.
Sharing a house with Junior & his mother.
Either west of France coastal strip, or previous town in England.
His mother prefers England, but Brexit has complicated things for them.

One more roll of the dice, then I must stay put for the following 8 years.


----------



## Franco-Belgian Brit

Clic Clac said:


> *School* : England. Purely because I've already lived in the town before, and I know the schools. I'd be gambling again on an unknown French school.


Be careful, a school can vary in a very short space of time. We sent our daughter to a highly recommended school with a fantastic reputation. It was a disaster. After three years , we changed to a school that was always looked down upon. It was enlightening and she thrived.


----------



## Clic Clac

Franco-Belgian Brit said:


> Be careful, a school can vary in a very short space of time. We sent our daughter to a highly recommended school with a fantastic reputation. It was a disaster. After three years , we changed to a school that was always looked down upon. It was enlightening and she thrived.


Yes, I agree, I'd considered that.
I've been following the secondary school for a while and noticed that the Head & Deputy Head team who were there for 10 years changed last year.
I will chase-up old friends from the area, and visit to make sure it's still a good choice.
We're not in a mad rush as he has 20 months before 'big school', but the sooner the better.


----------



## Clic Clac

Home or Away ? 

Back to Blighty 😏

Once Boris has gone, at least.


----------



## Clic Clac

Poloss said:


> You're welcome to drop in for a cup of tea on your way over


Put the kettle on Poloss, and a glass of pop for Junior. ☕🥤☺

As some of you may have gathered I'm still hanging on here, having been given a stay of execution with the house move.

The house is empty apart from a few basics and Junior and I leave for the Vendée next week for 3 weeks contemplation and fishing. 🎣🎣🎣

We are staying with friends who are quite keen for us to move there so watch this space.

We might be able to stay, but if not at least I'll be fully recharged to face Boris' Brexit Britain.

Let me know if you want to see some photos of big fish. 🤳🎣😅


----------



## boilerman

Clic Clac said:


> Put the kettle on Poloss, and a glass of pop for Junior. ☕🥤☺
> 
> As some of you may have gathered I'm still hanging on here, having been given a stay of execution with the house move.
> 
> The house is empty apart from a few basics and Junior and I leave for the Vendée next week for 3 weeks contemplation and fishing. 🎣🎣🎣
> 
> We are staying with friends who are quite keen for us to move there so watch this space.
> 
> We might be able to stay, but if not at least I'll be fully recharged to face Boris' Brexit Britain.
> 
> Let me know if you want to see some photos of big fish. 🤳🎣😅


Best of luck with your endeavours CC


----------



## EuroTrash

@Clic Clac 
Hang on for couple of months Clics, then you can come and visit me afore ye go (if ye go)


----------



## Clic Clac

boilerman said:


> Best of luck with your endeavours CC


Thanks Boily. 👍



EuroTrash said:


> Hang on for couple of months Clics, then you can come and visit me afore ye go (if ye go)


Ooo Err Missus. 😲

That will get the campers talking. 😅

I'll be officially HSD a week on Saturday, so this will give me a holiday, a free roof and thinking time.

It's also Junior's first ever holiday.
He's asked me to mention that the current French Fish Total stands at :

Junior 2
Dad 0

🎣😏


----------



## boilerman

EuroTrash said:


> @Clic Clac
> Hang on for couple of months Clics, then you can come and visit me afore ye go (if ye go)


Only an immature male would see that double meaning🤣and I dont mean CC


----------



## EuroTrash

No double meaning intended I assure you. My "come up and see me make me smile" days would be long gone, supposing they ever existed .


----------



## Clic Clac

EuroTrash said:


> No double meaning intended I assure you. My "come up and see me make me smile" days would be long gone, supposing they ever existed .


After lugging logs, cardboard boxes and furniture for 5 months I don't think my old back would get up the stairs. 😂

I'm more with the Boy George school of thought these days :

A nice cup of tea- and fishing. 💤


----------



## BackinFrance

Clic Clac said:


> Put the kettle on Poloss, and a glass of pop for Junior. ☕🥤☺
> 
> As some of you may have gathered I'm still hanging on here, having been given a stay of execution with the house move.
> 
> The house is empty apart from a few basics and Junior and I leave for the Vendée next week for 3 weeks contemplation and fishing. 🎣🎣🎣
> 
> We are staying with friends who are quite keen for us to move there so watch this space.
> 
> We might be able to stay, but if not at least I'll be fully recharged to face Boris' Brexit Britain.
> 
> Let me know if you want to see some photos of big fish. 🤳🎣😅


Next week? You may have to break holes in the ice in order to fish, winter is about to come back with a vengeance.


----------



## Clic Clac

BackinFrance said:


> Next week? You may have to break holes in the ice in order to fish, winter is about to come back with a vengeance.


Fear not, BiF.
I don't think the Atlantic will freeze.
Well, not until Boris starts telling the truth. 😊

The cold snap is only forecast to last until Sunday.


----------



## BackinFrance

Clic Clac said:


> Fear not, BiF.
> I don't think the Atlantic will freeze.
> Well, not until Boris starts telling the truth. 😊
> 
> The cold snap is only forecast to last until Sunday.


OK, I didn't know that you were going to be on the coast, after all La Vendée is an entire département. Good to know though that the very cold weather should be over by then.


----------



## Poloss

Clic Clac said:


> Put the kettle on Poloss, and a glass of pop for Junior. ☕🥤☺


You're both welcome.
PM for precisions


----------



## Clic Clac

Poloss said:


> You're both welcome.
> PM for precisions


Many thanks Poloss, very kind.
I'll see where our wanderings take us.
My new sat nav arrives tomorrow, so I'll have a play.📱


----------



## Clic Clac

A little bit of bad news for some of you - Looks like we're staying! 🙏😜

More down to the state of the UK at the moment, but the scales are very light on the side of Brexit Britain.

xM has been calculating the costs of moving - Visa, higher rent, council tax, mega heating bills.....it doesn't look pretty.

I had 3 weeks in the Vendee and the weather was great. The thought of having 'no' winter by the standards I'm used to is a big pull,

plus being the wrong side of 60 and returning to the mercy of the NHS is really scary. Apparently it's easier to find a unicorn over there than an NHS dentist.

Didn't particularly like the area we visited, apart from the fact that it's as flat as Lincolnshire.
I was surprised the towns were so busy, and many of the roads were, too, but then all the amenities were there for Junior.

But the Atlantic was calling, and the sight of market garden sprinklers in April was a joy to behold.

Three weeks flashed by. Sorry Poloss, never had a second, but I'm aiming to head off on another visit v.soon.
We might get Conky to bring a few rashers over for a barbie. 🥓🥩🥓



EuroTrash said:


> Hang on for couple of months Clics, then you can come and visit me afore ye go (if ye go)


Sounds like a Plan, Stan. 👍


----------



## Poloss

Clic Clac said:


> A little bit of bad news for some of you - Looks like we're staying! 🙏😜
> Three weeks flashed by. Sorry Poloss, never had a second, but I'm aiming to head off on another visit v.soon.
> We might get Conky to bring a few rashers over for a barbie. 🥓🥩🥓
> Sounds like a Plan, Stan. 👍


No worries.
We've had regular visits these past weeks so solitude hasn't really been on the menu 
You may well like the Charente or the Creuse, it's green, hilly, woods & forests and full of Brits.
There's even a roadside store hereabouts called "UK Foods" which sells all your favourite nosh 🥓🥩🥓 !
We're planning to travel from 20th June for a few weeks but I'll leave the key under the paillasson

Where next.......?


----------

