# Form 720 question



## Salonica

Last year I was badly advised not to do my 720 form and just to leave it till this year. Now I realise the big mistake I made following that advice (my accountant´s no less!) and am very worried about the consequences. If I file I will probably face a big fine (I´ve read 10,000€) and if I don´t?????? With the new FATCA agreement, will the authorities find out? Any advice as to what I should do? thanks for any ideas.


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## mrypg9

Well, it seems that some posters here think you may well be put up against a wall and shot.
I suspect that if you comply this year that will be that.


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## Alcalaina

I agree with Mrypg9, just do it as a new declaration. That will indicate you aren't trying to hide anything. I don't recall anything on the form asking how long you have had the assets.


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## Madliz

I seem to remember having to state when each bank account was opened. I realised after the deadline had passed that I should have completed m720 and so submitted it several months late. I've never heard a thing since (six months now) but there's always a worry at the back of my mind.


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## CapnBilly

Alcalaina said:


> I agree with Mrypg9, just do it as a new declaration. That will indicate you aren't trying to hide anything. I don't recall anything on the form asking how long you have had the assets.


You have to put the dates the accounts were opened. That doesn't mean of course that you had sufficient assets to declare last year, but it allows them to ask a question. Its really important that you put the correct dates, otherwise you set yourself up for tax on income you've had for a while, and might have recieved whilst you were a tax resident elsewhere.


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## Salonica

Thanks for all your answers. Whatever I do (and I have to decide asap) it will always be a worry at the back of my mind.... 

Another question: can anyone recommend someone to prepare US tax returns? I´m fed-up with the guy who has done them in the past and last year made a very expensive mistake besides advising me badly about the 720. I´d prefer someone in the Madrid area, but have been unable to find anyone.
Once again, thanks to everyone who has answered me.


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## xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxenjoylife

Also a good friend she passed the deadline i think she declared in oct
never had a problem with hacienda so far....
only 5%of all the foreigners in Spain declared the assets outside Spain...


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## mrypg9

enjoylife said:


> Also a good friend she passed the deadline i think she declared in oct
> never had a problem with hacienda so far....
> only 5%of all the foreigners in Spain declared the assets outside Spain...


Oh dear...there will obviously be a blip in the decline of the construction industry, building all those new prisons to accommodate them......


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## xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxenjoylife

on behalf of a friend....question :

is it better to declare this year 720 than not declare at all,since it is 1 year late ?
the gestoria told her...many residents did...many did not...too many left the country because of this new legislation...what to do?


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## extranjero

It must be a worry when you think of those huge fines-surely the tax office will realise she should have done it last year, from the info given, start dates etc.
Expect a lot of folks to have sleepless nights, and dread collecting their post.....


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## mrypg9

extranjero said:


> It must be a worry when you think of those huge fines-surely the tax office will realise she should have done it last year, from the info given, start dates etc.
> Expect a lot of folks to have sleepless nights, and dread collecting their post.....


Do you know anybody who has actually received one of those 'huge fines'?

The only person I know who has sleepless nights and dreads collecting their post is you.

I would also very much doubt any gestor's assertion that many have left because of Modelo 720.

I do know people who have ignored the reporting requirement and have not yet been clapped in irons. They sleep soundly.


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## Alcalaina

Surely it's better to declare late than not at all. That shows you are willing to comply with the law and not trying to hide anything. 

Hacienda really don't have the resources to go through everyone's declarations and check the fine details. The remaining staff (650 redundancies last year, which shows how committed the government is to tackling tax fraud!) have better things to do.

I've never heard of anyone being fined for non-compliance and I've been through the media with a fine-tooth comb!


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Surely it's better to declare late than not at all. That shows you are willing to comply with the law and not trying to hide anything.
> 
> Hacienda really don't have the resources to go through everyone's declarations and check the fine details. The remaining staff (650 redundancies last year, which shows how committed the government is to tackling tax fraud!) have better things to do.
> 
> I've never heard of anyone being fined for non-compliance and I've been through the media with a fine-tooth comb!


Quite. It's wrong to implant your own unwarranted fears in the minds of others.


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## extranjero

mrypg9 said:


> Do you know anybody who has actually received one of those 'huge fines'?
> 
> The only person I know who has sleepless nights and dreads collecting their post is you.
> 
> I would also very much doubt any gestor's assertion that many have left because of Modelo 720.
> 
> I do know people who have ignored the reporting requirement and have not yet been clapped in irons. They sleep soundly.


How do you know?
I have complied with the law, but of course I and many others worry that those who do are liable to be fined for inadvertent human error, while those who flout the law continue on their merry way.
Why would you doubt that people have left because of the 720, IHT and the tax system generally? I should think they are the main reasons!


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## Aron

Spain wasn't the only country in the EU to do an asset declaration last year. Some people in the UK were asked as well. They, the taxman, are not looking for people who pay their taxes, they are looking for those that don't. The world is a smaller place now with technology, and with the Internet, paper trails are easier to follow. Just do what the law requires and get on with your lives.


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## Lynn R

Those people who don't believe that the tax authorities in their country of residence should have the right to know what assets they have are REALLY going to be frothing at the mouth once the automatic exchange of information between countries (to which the UK is fully committed, btw) begins in 2015, aren't they?


Exchange of information - OECD


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## Salonica

Well I have decided to do mine almost a year late, recommended by my gestor. I will just have to face the consequences. As far as he knows (gestorias receive this kind of information) no fines have been given out yet. I would rather be worried about a fine for doing it late than worrying about a fine for not declaring at all.


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## Madliz

I realised too late that I should have submitted m720. I registered mine several months after the deadline last year. I haven't heard a thing and don't know if I will, but I would have been far more worried if I had not declared at all. I now sleep easy. Maybe I will be fined, but it will be less than if they had found out themselves and found me guilty of 'tax evasion'.

I don't like having to declare these things, but those are now the rules in my adopted country. I *DO* know people who have left Spain because of these new rules; for them it was the straw that broke the camel's back.


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## ivorra

Salonica said:


> Well I have decided to do mine almost a year late, recommended by my gestor. I will just have to face the consequences. As far as he knows (gestorias receive this kind of information) no fines have been given out yet. I would rather be worried about a fine for doing it late than worrying about a fine for not declaring at all.


If your first Modelo 720 is going to be submitted late as a result of a misunderstanding/bad professional advice/ignorance of the new requirements for asset reporting ie for a genuine reason, I guess it is logical to first submit the 2012 Modelo 720 and then, on the basis of what was put in for 2012 to submit for 2013 if required - e.g if an account was closed in 2013 or the asset class total varied by more than €20.000 - and make sure that 2013 goes in before the deadline at the end of this month. You will find that 2012 is still an option on the Agencia Tributaria web site and the form can be processed but it is possible that rather than being 'simply' added to your tax file, it will be treated as an 'alta' - an application to add the information.


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## Turtles

I've been reading the Hacienda faq's and anything else I can find to see if everything needs to be redeclared for 2013 if just one asset class rose 20,000 over the year. The easy thing is just to repeat the info from 2012, but the Origin of Assets question on the form more or less forces you to say that you are redeclaring an asset because it has risen in value, even if it has fallen. There isn't another option that makes any sense. 
I'm waiting until closer to the deadline in case any new information comes out.


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## mrypg9

extranjero said:


> How do you know?
> I have complied with the law, but of course I and many others worry that those who do are liable to be fined for inadvertent human error, while those who flout the law continue on their merry way.
> Why would you doubt that people have left because of the 720, IHT and the tax system generally? I should think they are the main reasons!


No, I don't think they are the main reasons. Imo the main reason is that people came here who simply couldn't afford to. They didn't reckon with the fact that in any country costs can rise for a host of reasons..exchange rate fluctations, interest rate increases, new taxes and so on. Some of these people just didn't plan for all eventualities. Some took on mortgages they couldn't really afford.
Now they don't like to admit the real reasons why their ' dream' has turned into a nightmare.
Of course that's not the case with everyone. Sometimes illness or bad luck can bring problems. But I'm guessing many Brits came here on a shoestring.

As for tax systems: they exist everywhere. You don't seem to understand that Modelo 720 is not a demand for tax. It is a declaration of assets and honest people will already have declared productive assets.

Please understand that we , most of us, are happy here. Imo anyone who has gone back to the UK because of Modelo 720 has a very poor grasp of what it's about....or has been hiding productive assets...like rental income from UK properties, perhaps.

But as Lynn points out, you can run but you can't hide...


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## extranjero

Of course I know 720 isn't a tax demand, but the way it's been set up with its draconian fines and requirement for the minutest detail makes it a real pain.For many, IHT is a real
fear, with good reason if you live in Murcia, and that alone would be reason enough to leave
Spain is famous for its greedy taxes and it is worse than the UK system imo
As you say, most are happy in Spain, but don't assume that those who aren't are living on a shoestring. They probably don't want to see savings built up over a lifetime, disappear into the Hacienda's coffers.


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## Aron

extranjero said:


> Of course I know 720 isn't a tax demand, but the way it's been set up with its draconian fines and requirement for the minutest detail makes it a real pain.For many, IHT is a real
> fear, with good reason if you live in Murcia, and that alone would be reason enough to leave
> Spain is famous for its greedy taxes and it is worse than the UK system imo
> As you say, most are happy in Spain, but don't assume that those who aren't are living on a shoestring. They probably don't want to see savings built up over a lifetime, disappear into the Hacienda's coffers.


I don't think Spain is famous for its greedy taxes, or certainly no different from any other country I know. The UK is squeezing everybody right now because of the deficit, Spain is doing the same. I still feel better off in Spain than I did in the UK. If Spain is a greedy country, how come all our rates are a pittance compared to the UK. My car tax is the same as it was when I bought my first car here 9 years ago. 
We all went through an asset declaration last year, the government wanted to know where individual's finances were. Most expats keep their finances offshore. The UK government did an asset declaration to certain people last year that bank offshore. They had a right to ask you, the government in the UK have a right to know with their citizens. I understand your concerns, we all have concerns, but hey, Spain is a relaxed place and I intend to stay relaxed.


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## xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxenjoylife

ok but what happen next ?

now they have all the information on our assets,
savings etc of course people are worried..do they
introduce a new tax on our savings?


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## xabiaxica

enjoylife said:


> ok but what happen next ?
> 
> now they have all the information on our assets,
> savings etc of course people are worried..do they
> introduce a new tax on our savings?


maybe - who knows

but Spain isn't the only country to have these reporting requirements


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## Williams2

mrypg9 said:


> Quite. It's wrong to implant your own unwarranted fears in the minds of others.


I always thought British Expats had a Plan B, when they receive the unwelcome
attentions of the Spanish taxman - namely seek Political Asylum in Gibraltar.


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## mrypg9

enjoylife said:


> ok but what happen next ?
> 
> now they have all the information on our assets,
> savings etc of course people are worried..do they
> introduce a new tax on our savings?


Maybe. And if so, it won't be a tax imposed only on 'our' savings. Spaniards will have to pay it too.

One cannot expect any country to keep the same tax regime forever. Likeevery single country in the world, Spain will at times change the rate of its taxes and the assets and activities on which they are imposed. Spain doesn't run its fiscal policy for the benefit of immigrants, neither does the UK. Which country does?

Anyone who spends their days in this lovely country worrying about a tax that may never be imposed really isn't getting the enjoyment they should and really should ask themselves what they are doing here. Spain is not a particularly high tax country. Ask Scandinavians what a high-tax country looks like! There is usually a reason why some countries have low-tax regimes...and it is that they are usually not very pleasant places to live. I lived in one and was only too glad to move to Spain. Spain isn't a poor third-world country, it's a developed country now in economic crisis.

As others have said, reporting requirements are not unique to Spain. If Labour wins the next election, there will be tax changes in the UK.


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## mrypg9

Williams2 said:


> I always thought British Expats had a Plan B, when they receive the unwelcome
> attentions of the Spanish taxman - namely seek Political Asylum in Gibraltar.


I wouldn't know, i'm a British immigrant. This is now my home.:


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## Aron

Williams2 said:


> I always thought British Expats had a Plan B, when they receive the unwelcome
> attentions of the Spanish taxman - namely seek Political Asylum in Gibraltar.


And how do you get political asylum in another EU country!


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## Lynn R

Williams2 said:


> I always thought British Expats had a Plan B, when they receive the unwelcome
> attentions of the Spanish taxman - namely seek Political Asylum in Gibraltar.


We can't get across the border, hadn't you heard?


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## extranjero

mrypg9 said:


> Maybe. And if so, it won't be a tax imposed only on 'our' savings. Spaniards will have to pay it too.
> 
> One cannot expect any country to keep the same tax regime forever. Likeevery single country in the world, Spain will at times change the rate of its taxes and the assets and activities on which they are imposed. Spain doesn't run its fiscal policy for the benefit of immigrants, neither does the UK. Which country does?
> 
> Anyone who spends their days in this lovely country worrying about a tax that may never be imposed really isn't getting the enjoyment they should and really should ask themselves what they are doing here. Spain is not a particularly high tax country. Ask Scandinavians what a high-tax country looks like! There is usually a reason why some countries have low-tax regimes...and it is that they are usually not very pleasant places to live. I lived in one and was only too glad to move to Spain. Spain isn't a poor third-world country,
> 
> As others have said, reporting requirements are not unique to Spain. If Labour wins the next election, there will be tax changes in the UK.


Re Spaniards will have to pay it too. How many Spaniards have assets outside Spain, whereas thousands of expats do, therefore it is targeted at the ex pat population ie the Cash Cow!
It's not whether a tax will be imposed on people, there is a wealth tax for that, it's the punitive nature for eg errors. The huge amount of detail required, the Big brother aspect.I doubt that other countries are as draconian or intrusive


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## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> Maybe. And if so, it won't be a tax imposed only on 'our' savings. Spaniards will have to pay it too.
> 
> One cannot expect any country to keep the same tax regime forever. Likeevery single country in the world, Spain will at times change the rate of its taxes and the assets and activities on which they are imposed. Spain doesn't run its fiscal policy for the benefit of immigrants, neither does the UK. Which country does?
> 
> Anyone who spends their days in this lovely country worrying about a tax that may never be imposed really isn't getting the enjoyment they should and really should ask themselves what they are doing here. Spain is not a particularly high tax country. Ask Scandinavians what a high-tax country looks like! There is usually a reason why some countries have low-tax regimes...and it is that they are usually not very pleasant places to live. I lived in one and was only too glad to move to Spain. Spain isn't a poor third-world country, it's a developed country now in economic crisis.
> 
> As others have said, reporting requirements are not unique to Spain. If Labour wins the next election, there will be tax changes in the UK.


I imagine there will be tax changes in the UK no matter who wins the next election.

As far as Spain is concerned, of course there is supposed to be a root and branch review of the tax regime going on at the moment. I've been seeing quite a few reports in the press recently saying that various "experts" are urging the Government to reduce social security contributions to help create employment (which I would think nobody could argue with), but to increase IVA instead. Of course the latter would be hugely unpopular with most expat/immigrants, the vast majority of whom don't pay social security but do pay IVA.

There, now I've gone and given them something new to panic about. Well, they do say a change is as good as a rest!


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## Aron

enjoylife said:


> ok but what happen next ?
> 
> now they have all the information on our assets,
> savings etc of course people are worried..do they
> introduce a new tax on our savings?


Wherever you live in the world they will want to know your assets, Spain included especially as you live there. The taxman in the UK will know what you have, if he doesn't, you are expected to tell them if you reside in the UK. There is no point worrying about what they know, but it could be a worry if you have something you have failed to tell them!


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## mrypg9

extranjero said:


> Re Spaniards will have to pay it too. How many Spaniards have assets outside Spain, whereas thousands of expats do, therefore it is targeted at the ex pat population ie the Cash Cow!
> It's not whether a tax will be imposed on people, there is a wealth tax for that, it's the punitive nature for eg errors. The huge amount of detail required, the Big brother aspect.I doubt that other countries are as draconian or intrusive


Do you really think there are no wealthy Spanisrds with overseas assets?
British immigrants in Spain are not, on the whole, wealthy. Wealthy Brits tend to,go,elsewhere, to more upmarket destinations and tax havens..the Cayman Islands, British Virgin Islands, Tuscany and Southern France even. Monaco..
We Brits are very poor 'cash cows'. Russians, maybe..

I have to ask again: why do you stay in Spain? I would never stay in a place where, to use your words, you have sleepless nights and live in fear?

Safety ianddeep sleep are a cheap flight away.


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## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> I imagine there will be tax changes in the UK no matter who wins the next election.
> 
> As far as Spain is concerned, of course there is supposed to be a root and branch review of the tax regime going on at the moment. I've been seeing quite a few reports in the press recently saying that various "experts" are urging the Government to reduce social security contributions to help create employment (which I would think nobody could argue with), but to increase IVA instead. Of course the latter would be hugely unpopular with most expat/immigrants, the vast majority of whom don't pay social security but do pay IVA.
> 
> There, now I've gone and given them something new to panic about. Well, they do say a change is as good as a rest!


My view is, you live in a country, you take your share of both the up and downsides.
I see enough hardship here and I do not see how any immigrant can enjoy life here on the backs of Spanisrds.


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## extranjero

mrypg9 said:


> Do you really think there are no wealthy Spanisrds with overseas assets?
> British immigrants in Spain are not, on the whole, wealthy. Wealthy Brits tend to,go,elsewhere, to more upmarket destinations and tax havens..the Cayman Islands, British Virgin Islands, Tuscany and Southern France even. Monaco..
> We Brits are very poor 'cash cows'. Russians, maybe..
> 
> I have to ask again: why do you stay in Spain? I would never stay in a place where, to use your words, you have sleepless nights and live in fear?
> 
> Safety ianddeep sleep are a cheap flight away.


I can assure you, that though I do not like the assets law or IHT scheme, I do not live in fear or have sleepless nights because of them, though others may.
You may think Brits in Spain are not wealthy; I disagree.Where I live many have properties in the Uk, and other countries and the number of new and expensive cars is another clue. Many have very large pensions and multiple investments.You may not call these people wealthy, but what else would you call them?
As for safety and deep sleep being a cheap flight away, when I have sold my house and settled my affairs, I shall be happy to leave, like many others.I will not give my house away for a pittance. Until then, I will sleep well and be frightened of nothing and no one.


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## mrypg9

extranjero said:


> I can assure you, that though I do not like the assets law or IHT scheme, I do not live in fear or have sleepless nights because of them, though others may.
> You may think Brits in Spain are not wealthy; I disagree.Where I live many have properties in the Uk, and other countries and the number of new and expensive cars is another clue. Many have very large pensions and multiple investments.You may not call these people wealthy, but what else would you call them?
> As for safety and deep sleep being a cheap flight away, when I have sold my house and settled my affairs, I shall be happy to leave, like many others.I will not give my house away for a pittance. Until then, I will sleep well and be frightened of nothing and no one.


We had a large house and businesses in the UK. We have good pensions and investments, we drove 'good' cars.
No way would I describe myself as 'wealthy'.

I have however met Brits who like to be thought of as 'wealthy' ...
It is a term which is meaningless since it is so relative.

Then there are those with large houses, flash cars who give the appearance of wealth but are mortgaged to the hilt....Ten- bob millionaires, I believe they're called...

Btw, did you know that property ownership is more widespread amongst 
Spaniards than amongst Brits? Spain is no longer a nation of donkey riders and tomato growers..


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## Aron

extranjero said:


> I can assure you, that though I do not like the assets law or IHT scheme, I do not live in fear or have sleepless nights because of them, though others may.
> You may think Brits in Spain are not wealthy; I disagree.Where I live many have properties in the Uk, and other countries and the number of new and expensive cars is another clue. Many have very large pensions and multiple investments.You may not call these people wealthy, but what else would you call them?
> As for safety and deep sleep being a cheap flight away, when I have sold my house and settled my affairs, I shall be happy to leave, like many others.I will not give my house away for a pittance. Until then, I will sleep well and be frightened of nothing and no one.


Expats in general are more wealthy than the locals. However, we do know some Spaniards who are better off than you would imagine. As they say, you can never tell a book by its cover. 
The only people selling houses in our area are the people who take a hit on the price. Many houses have been up for sale for years. Recently a good friend sold his within a month. He knew the level that houses sell at and sold it at that level. He just said that life was too short to wait 5 years on the hope of making more money. I know a lot of people desperate to leave. 
We came to Spain to live. We wanted quality of life and have found it. We had relatives here who have been here since the 70's. We knew what Spain was like as to place to live. None of our family, us included have any plans to return to a cold wet expensive country like the UK. But best of luck to you


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## mrypg9

Aron said:


> Expats in general are more wealthy than the locals. However, we do know some Spaniards who are better off than you would imagine. As they say, you can never tell a book by its cover.
> The only people selling houses in our area are the people who take a hit on the price. Many houses have been up for sale for years. Recently a good friend sold his within a month. He knew the level that houses sell at and sold it at that level. He just said that life was too short to wait 5 years on the hope of making more money. I know a lot of people desperate to leave.
> We came to Spain to live. We wanted quality of life and have found it. We had relatives here who have been here since the 70's. We knew what Spain was like as to place to live. None of our family, us included have any plans to return to a cold wet expensive country like the UK. But best of luck to you


As I said, it depends on your definition of wealthy. It also depends where you live. 

As for selling houses...when we decided to leave the UK we took first offers on our properties. Starting a new exciting life was more important to us than screwing a bit more money out of the housing márket.
We have a friend here in Spain who, for personal reasons, nothing to do with Modelo 720, taxes and so on, decided to sell her house. She declared that she must have €500k at least ' in her hand'. A couple of years later and one offer of €400k gross on what had once been a €million house.
She took the house off the market, decided to stay in Spain and is happy that she did.

Of course, there are those who need a certain sum from their house sale in order to afford to resettle in the UK. But then, as JoJo always advises, best not to burn your bridges. Anyone in those circumstances should most probably have been better advised to have rented and kept their UK property.

The importance of thorough planning, examining things from all angles, can't be overestimated. If worrying about an as yet nonexistent tax demandisenough to send someone back to the UK, they probably shouldn't have left in the first place.

As for harsh fines....where is the evidence anyone has been fined? For two years now,HMRC have been chasing me for a fine which they regularly update although I equally regularly point out it is undeserved as the fault is on their side. The fine has now reached four figures. They are wasting their time.


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## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> My view is, you live in a country, you take your share of both the up and downsides.
> I see enough hardship here and I do not see how any immigrant can enjoy life here on the backs of Spanisrds.


I agree wholeheartedly. I certainly wouldn't be jumping for joy if IVA goes up, but if social security contributions can be reduced and more people find work because of it, then that's a price worth paying. We have to look at the bigger picture if we've decided to throw in our lot with this country, rather than seeing ourselves as long term tourists. In the past, I've voted for policies that would benefit other people but make me personally worse off, and against those that would benefit me financially but make many others worse off - I can't vote in national elections here, but I hope I'd do the same if I got a chance.

There is even a small element of self-interest in that thinking - if more people were in work then the amount of crime, particularly burglaries which many of us might have suffered from (I have) might go down.

Some immigrants seem to have a real victim mentality and are convinced that they're the only people adversely affected by the recession and the austerity measures resulting from it. That's very far from the truth. My hairdresser told me last week that a friend of hers has bought a flat for €90,000. Her next door neighbours (they're all local Spanish people) paid €240,000 for theirs and are paying a mortgage of that size. How must they feel?

But like you, I reserve my real sympathy for the millions of Spaniards with no work and precious little hope of finding any, and no proper welfare safety net either. Compared to their situation, the "plight" of people with more than €50,000 in any asset class or a second property in another country does not mean they are exactly starving in a garret. Yes, they probably have worked hard all their lives. Millions of people here would give anything to be able to do the same.


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## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> I agree wholeheartedly. I certainly wouldn't be jumping for joy if IVA goes up, but if social security contributions can be reduced and more people find work because of it, then that's a price worth paying. We have to look at the bigger picture if we've decided to throw in our lot with this country, rather than seeing ourselves as long term tourists. In the past, I've voted for policies that would benefit other people but make me personally worse off, and against those that would benefit me financially but make many others worse off - I can't vote in national elections here, but I hope I'd do the same if I got a chance.
> 
> There is even a small element of self-interest in that thinking - if more people were in work then the amount of crime, particularly burglaries which many of us might have suffered from (I have) might go down.
> 
> Some immigrants seem to have a real victim mentality and are convinced that they're the only people adversely affected by the recession and the austerity measures resulting from it. That's very far from the truth. My hairdresser told me last week that a friend of hers has bought a flat for €90,000. Her next door neighbours (they're all local Spanish people) paid €240,000 for theirs and are paying a mortgage of that size. How must they feel?
> 
> But like you, I reserve my real sympathy for the millions of Spaniards with no work and precious little hope of finding any, and no proper welfare safety net either. Compared to their situation, the "plight" of people with more than €50,000 in any asset class or a second property in another country does not mean they are exactly starving in a garret. Yes, they probably have worked hard all their lives. Millions of people here would give anything to be able to do the same.


Lynn, you are a woman after my own heart!! Yes, like you I've voted all my life for policies that would adversely affect me...as a comparatively high earner, as landlord, as business owner. We do not live in bubbles. There IS such a thing as society and we are part of it. Too many immigrants have a totally unjustified sense of entitlement, imo: ' i did Spain a favour in coming here and it's let me down'

Some of these whiners should spend a day in our charity shop or at our kennels. Watch grown Spanish men and women cry because they have lost jobs and homes and have to give up beloved pets.

But then of course many British immigrants DO live in bubbles and have no idea of what's going on around them. That's their choice, and their right,as I've always said. That doesn't alter the fact that some of them seem to think that the Government and people of Spain have some special obligation towards them.

I've really appreciated two posts lately, yours and Brocher's Salmond joke. Both deserve a thousand likes!


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## extranjero

Lynn R said:


> I imagine there will be tax changes in the UK no matter who wins the next election.
> 
> As far as Spain is concerned, of course there is supposed to be a root and branch review of the tax regime going on at the moment. I've been seeing quite a few reports in the press recently saying that various "experts" are urging the Government to reduce social security contributions to help create employment (which I would think nobody could argue with), but to increase IVA instead. Of course the latter would be hugely unpopular with most expat/immigrants, the vast majority of whom don't pay social security but do pay IVA.
> 
> There, now I've gone and given them something new to panic about. Well, they do say a change is as good as a rest!


No doubt the black money situation would also increase, and it would put even more ex pats off who were thinking of investing in Spain.


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## mrypg9

extranjero said:


> No doubt the black money situation would also increase, and it would put even more ex pats off who were thinking of investing in Spain.


By 'investing in Spain' do you mean 'buying a house', nowadays, as Lynn has succintly pointed out, at a very cheap price?

And are you seriously insinuating that Spain should tailor its economic policies to suit the requirements of British immigrants/expats? Should the UK ask Polish expats/immigrants what they'd like to see in the next Budget?

You have not once, in any of your posts, made reference to the plight of the very many Spanish families with no-one in work and some facing the threat of eviction. I'm sure that the plight of a few British immigrants who came to Spain on a shoestring and now find their 'dream' property, if saleable, won't give the price of a back-to-back in Huddersfield is sad too and to be pitied. Before burning their bridges in the UK they should perhaps have considered that Spain belongs primarily to the Spanish people and its Governments, elected by the Spanish people, are not going to write their election manifestos to suit a load of immigrants from Northern Europe.

You tell us again and again about the alleged 'draconian' penalties for those who fail to comply with the imo reasonable requirements of Modelo 720 -penalties for which no-one has any evidence- and bemoan the lack of buyers for your property at the price you think it's worth. I'm sorry you can't find a buyer as it's clear you are not happy with your life here. I'm sorry for anyone who can't enjoy life in such a beautiful country.

I'm sure you don't intend to but parts of your posts give the impression that Spain is shooting itself in the foot by not considering the needs of immigrants above the sufferings of its own people. Spain lived happily before it was the choice destination of immigrants from Northern Europe with big dreams and often slender means. Yes, it was poor compared to some European countries. But its coastline and towns and villages were unspoilt by the ugly developments that accompanied mass European immigration. 
I travelled in Spain in the 1960s when Torrevieja was a quiet fishing village, not the high-rise megapolis it has now become. Benidorm was tiny, just being developed. Of course many Spaniards got rich from the immigration. Farm land sold for development at astronomical prices. Rural communities were brought into the twentieth century. But no-one asked the Spaniards if they wanted the face of their localities changed, just as no-one asked the people of the UK if they wanted their environments changed by mass immigration from Eastern Europe.

I know that it's human nature to focus on our own grievances. We all do it. But can you not spare a thought for the circumstances of the people amongst whom you freely chose to come and live?


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## Aron

extranjero said:


> No doubt the black money situation would also increase, and it would put even more ex pats off who were thinking of investing in Spain.


I don't think so, emigration from the UK will continue and many will come to Spain. I know of quite a few now renting as opposed to buying, but the housing market is more buoyant. We bought 10 years ago and we have no regrets. We have British and Spanish neighbours in a rural setting. We just love it here in Spain and anyone thinking of coming here, they could do a lot worse. I appreciate that for some people Spain has not been a dream and they want to return home. On the flip side to that, some I know went back to the UK realising they had made a mistake and returned back to Spain.


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## mrypg9

extranjero said:


> No doubt the black money situation would also increase, and it would put even more ex pats off who were thinking of investing in Spain.


Why should it put them off? Very many Brits here are very happy to make use of the 'black money situation'. They work on the black, run businesses on the black, pay their cleaners and gardeners on the black....all those 'wealthy' Brits cheating the Spanish system....

I pay my gardener cash in hand. He has a full-time job, he's not claiming paro. When I came here I thought that was immoral and in a way I admit it is but something PW posted a couple of years ago made me change my mind about some cash-in-hand deals. Our gardener is paid a pittance for his full-time gardening work in a posh golf/hotel complex. I doubt the fifty euros I gave him for cutting our lawns twice last month would have raised his tax threshhold. It might have helped him buy a treat for his two young children, though.


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## extranjero

Would Spain be in its present mess if it had done something about its black economy years ago?
Spain doesn't help itself in its crisis:
Where I live, many do not pay IBI despite having the escritura. There is so much bureaucracy and they can't seem to sort it out.People in the campo pay 10 times less than people in an urbanisation, yet we all avail ourselves of the services this money goes towards. This is a huge loss of revenue for the council(though they recently spent 18,000 euros on a painting, and 60,000 euros on a skate park, while Camposol is without much of its street lighting) 
As to iva-of course it would put people off, affecting everything in their daily lives,buying a house, utilities, food etc.Some planning to move here full time now only want a holiday home, so Spain misses out.
Of course I have concerns for the plight of some very poor people. I help a charity that supplies clothes, furniture, food, etc to those who are unemployed and/or homeless;I employ Spanish workers for jobs,
I've given loads of items to sell for charity and when shopping, often give groceries to a charity collecting food and household items.
Don't assume that the Spanish like their own laws and hate anyone criticising them, because I've spoken to some who feel the same as me!
Do you think the Spaniards wish expats had never chosen to settle here? Yes, they would have kept the coast unspoiled and lived a simpler way of life, but others have achieved a good standard of living through tourism, building etc.
Some expats have seen their money and dreams disappear through corruption, greed and confusing laws, not because they didn't plan or research properly, but because they trusted someone unscrupulous, incompetant, probably highly qualified and they were let down.


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## extranjero

mrypg9 liked it?-Phew! time for a strong cuppa!


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## mrypg9

extranjero said:


> Would Spain be in its present mess if it had done something about its black economy years ago?
> Spain doesn't help itself in its crisis:
> Where I live, many do not pay IBI despite having the escritura. There is so much bureaucracy and they can't seem to sort it out.People in the campo pay 10 times less than people in an urbanisation, yet we all avail ourselves of the services this money goes towards. This is a huge loss of revenue for the council(though they recently spent 18,000 euros on a painting, and 60,000 euros on a skate park, while Camposol is without much of its street lighting)
> As to iva-of course it would put people off, affecting everything in their daily lives,buying a house, utilities, food etc.Some planning to move here full time now only want a holiday home, so Spain misses out.
> Of course I have concerns for the plight of some very poor people. I help a charity that supplies clothes, furniture, food, etc to those who are unemployed and/or homeless;I employ Spanish workers for jobs,
> I've given loads of items to sell for charity and when shopping, often give groceries to a charity collecting food and household items.
> Don't assume that the Spanish like their own laws and hate anyone criticising them, because I've spoken to some who feel the same as me!
> Do you think the Spaniards wish expats had never chosen to settle here? Yes, they would have kept the coast unspoiled and lived a simpler way of life, but others have achieved a good standard of living through tourism, building etc.
> Some expats have seen their money and dreams disappear through corruption, greed and confusing laws, not because they didn't plan or research properly, but because they trusted someone unscrupulous, incompetant, probably highly qualified and they were let down.


Much of what you say is undoubtedly true, it's undeniable. But corruption and a black economy are no way unique to Spain. You will find them in all countries that have lived under oppressive, bureaucratic regimes and no civil society, whether of governments of right or left or where the Catholic Church is involved - it supplies the hypocrisy that usually accompanies corruption. The former socialist countries are hopelessly corrupt. At least Spain is trying to do something about it.

Many immigrants who have lost money were architects of their own misfortune. They didn't seem to understand that Spain wasnot a colony, a place where English laws and norms were concerned. Yes, some were innocents abroad. But an awful lot thought they could cut corners, save money, get round planning laws...then screamed when they came unstuck. Some were plain daft and gullible. They proceeded to shell out money in a way they would, most of them, never have done in the UK. As for those who bought 'offplan'.....I cannot imagine handing over £tens of thousands in a foreign country to something that existed only on paper.

If the Spanish Government decides to increase iva, so be it. As Lynn says, if that helps the poor in any way, I'm all for it.
I want to live in Spain, not off Spain.

Some Spanish people welcome us guiris, some hate our presence, most are probably indifferent. But I'm sure they don't see the construction boom we immigrants helped fuel as an unmixed blessing. The upside may have been employment and higher wages for a while but the downside has been massive structural unemployment, one, maybe two lost generations who turned their backs on education when jobs were plentiful in construction and half-built monstrosities, unused hospitals, sports centres, hotels and even airports that litter the countryside and cities like the carcasses of dead white elephants, which of course they were.


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## mrypg9

extranjero said:


> mrypg9 liked it?-Phew! time for a strong cuppa!


A lot of it was true!!!!

I have 'liked' your posts before, you know...


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## Lynn R

All those who think the penalties for not declaring overseas assets in Spain are draconian and out of step with the UK, please note!


BBC News - New proposals to tackle offshore tax evasion


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## extranjero

Lynn R said:


> All those who think the penalties for not declaring overseas assets in Spain are draconian and out of step with the UK, please note!
> 
> 
> BBC News - New proposals to tackle offshore tax evasion


This is for mega rich people in the UK, salting away vast sums, with the help of clever accountants. whereas in Spain, it affects people with modest savings, usually in their home country.


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## Lynn R

extranjero said:


> This is for mega rich people in the UK, salting away vast sums, with the help of clever accountants. whereas in Spain, it affects people with modest savings, usually in their home country.


You should read the comments below the article on this subject on The Guardian's website -practically every one of them is saying that the super rich will not be the ones affected by this, as per usual.


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## xabiaxica

extranjero said:


> This is for mega rich people in the UK, salting away vast sums, with the help of clever accountants. whereas in Spain, it affects people with modest savings, usually in their home country.


just as the Spanish 'scheme' is _aimed at _super-rich Spaniards hiding their money outside Spain

I'm sure plenty of not-so rich non-Brits who have assets in their home country will be caught up in the UK scheme, too


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## mrypg9

extranjero said:


> This is for mega rich people in the UK, salting away vast sums, with the help of clever accountants. whereas in Spain, it affects people with modest savings, usually in their home country.


No it doesn't. It could applyto me and OH as we each allegedly owe more than £1000 to HMRC, something we hotly dispute.

How will Modelo 720 affect not that well- off...aka the majority - Brit immigrants in Spain? Please give details and examples...otherwise we might think you are scsremongering..


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## extranjero

xabiachica said:


> just as the Spanish 'scheme' is _aimed at _super-rich Spaniards hiding their money outside Spain
> 
> I'm sure plenty of not-so rich non-Brits who have assets in their home country will be caught up in the UK scheme, too


By home country, I meant ex pats in Spain with savings in UK.
In UK, this new law is aimed at those mega rich with savings outside UK;I bet there are not many Brits with modest savings who have overseas assets. Here it is the modest savers who are at risk of being penalised;In UK, it is the very wealthy-that's the difference, and loopholes will be found!


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## xabiaxica

extranjero said:


> By home country, I meant ex pats in Spain with savings in UK.
> In UK, this new law is aimed at those mega rich with savings outside UK;I bet there are not many Brits with modest savings who have overseas assets. Here it is the modest savers who are at risk of being penalised;In UK, it is the very wealthy-that's the difference, and loopholes will be found!


it depends on your definition of wealthy - but we've all been round & round that one before 

what I meant was - I'm sure that there are non-Brits living in the UK who have assets in _their _home country who are being caught up in the UK 'scheme'


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## mrypg9

extranjero said:


> By home country, I meant ex pats in Spain with savings in UK.
> In UK, this new law is aimed at those mega rich with savings outside UK;I bet there are not many Brits with modest savings who have overseas assets. Here it is the modest savers who are at risk of being penalised;In UK, it is the very wealthy-that's the difference, and loopholes will be found!


But how will they be 'penalised'? Surely they should have already declared any income from interest- producing assets? 
If you can't give an instance of exactly who will be penalised and how I really think you should not alarm these modest savers unnecessárily...or they will be withdrawing their modest savings from banks etc. and stuffing them under the mattress or keeping them in boxes under the bed, like my gran did.
But then you'll no doubt warn us that hacienda will send a hit squad of inspectators to,homes to snoop under beds and skake mattresses


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## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> But then you'll no doubt warn us that hacienda will send a hit squad of inspectators to,homes to snoop under beds and skake mattresses


Would it be better if they got there before the burglars, or not? Talk about the lesser of two evils!


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## Aron

extranjero said:


> This is for mega rich people in the UK, salting away vast sums, with the help of clever accountants. whereas in Spain, it affects people with modest savings, usually in their home country.


No, it's not for mega rich people. We have a relative in the UK, and because he invests offshore in trusts he had to do an asset declaration last year. He is not rich, let alone mega rich, he just has modest savings.


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## mrypg9

Aron said:


> No, it's not for mega rich people. We have a relative in the UK, and because he invests offshore in trusts he had to do an asset declaration last year. He is not rich, let alone mega rich, he just has modest savings.


€50 is the entry level for Modelo 720... What's that now...£40k? Not that much in theglobal scale of things..and as I keep repeating...productive assets however modest must be declared.


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## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> Would it be better if they got there before the burglars, or not? Talk about the lesser of two evils!


I've got a serious heart condition, and if or rather when I become extinct Sandra has her own resources and my son and family are well off. So we thought why look at money on a balance sheet? So on my way back from hospital this week I made a detour to Marbella and bought loads of nice clothes, shoes, leather jackets and stuff. At least I will be laid out in some style.

I am enjoying my declining years here in Spain and I'm ******ed if I'm going to hasten my demise by worrying about fines, taxes, HMRC, hacienda, things that go bump in the night...


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## extranjero

Aron said:


> No, it's not for mega rich people. We have a relative in the UK, and because he invests offshore in trusts he had to do an asset declaration last year. He is not rich, let alone mega rich, he just has modest savings.


Surely, someone who invests in offshore trusts IS wealthy- why else would you want to invest offshore?
mrypg9- a lot of people think 40 k is a lot of money.As for how people would be penalised, just look at the penalties for any omissions or errors, even if minor. The Spanish tax office agrees the penalties are excessive, because they do not differentiate between big time fraudsters and small time savers- that's ok, is it?


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## Aron

extranjero said:


> Surely, someone who invests in offshore trusts IS wealthy- why else would you want to invest offshore?
> mrypg9- a lot of people think 40 k is a lot of money.As for how people would be penalised, just look at the penalties for any omissions or errors, even if minor. The Spanish tax office agrees the penalties are excessive, because they do not differentiate between big time fraudsters and small time savers- that's ok, is it?


Surely everyone who invests offshore isn't wealthy, that theory is a perception!


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## mrypg9

extranjero said:


> Surely, someone who invests in offshore trusts IS wealthy- why else would you want to invest offshore?
> mrypg9- a lot of people think 40 k is a lot of money.As for how people would be penalised, just look at the penalties for any omissions or errors, even if minor. The Spanish tax office agrees the penalties are excessive, because they do not differentiate between big time fraudsters and small time savers- that's ok, is it?


But no- one has been fined, have they? And that is my point. Why worry people about what might be?
Look, I've done things I shouldn't have..parked in the wrong place, forgot to put headlights on...and I've been stopped by the police and GC. Now I should have been fined, not merely might have been fined..but I wasn't.
It's nonsense to think only the wealthy invest offshore. Sandra has an offshore investment and I have an offshore account and we are no way 'wealthy', just middle- class comfortable, I suppose we'd have to describe ourselves,like most Brit immigrants here although I don't like the label. You can invest offshore with £10k and open an offshore account with £100, scarcely great wealth.
£40k isn't great wealth these days.
I'm afraid that retiring to Spain isn't a choice available to everyone and there may be people who overestimated their ability to live comfortably on their incomes.
That's not the fault of Spain. Such people have, sadly, two choices: downsize, fit lifestyle to income or go home.
That may sound harsh..but what else could they do?


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## Lynn R

I've got some offshore accounts (in Gibraltar) and I'm so not wealthy that I don't have to make a 720 declaration because they are well under the limit. I only opened them because, no longer being a UK resident, I wasn't able to open any new UK accounts paying a better rate of interest once the rates on my existing savings accounts started to go through the floor.


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## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> I've got a serious heart condition, and if or rather when I become extinct Sandra has her own resources and my son and family are well off. So we thought why look at money on a balance sheet? So on my way back from hospital this week I made a detour to Marbella and bought loads of nice clothes, shoes, leather jackets and stuff. At least I will be laid out in some style.
> 
> I am enjoying my declining years here in Spain and I'm ******ed if I'm going to hasten my demise by worrying about fines, taxes, HMRC, hacienda, things that go bump in the night...


Good to hear you're doing your bit to shore up the Spanish economy.

I hope to be able to redouble my efforts in that direction once I get my hands on those all important pensions. After all, no pockets in shrouds as the saying goes.


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## mrypg9

Tax is deducted at source on income from most offshore accounts...and information is passed to HMRC...

I know a few retired Brits with investment income here..none of them is worried about Modelo 720. They filled in and returned the form, with or without help..and forgot about it.

Since any EU citizen can invest in any EU country and indeed in most countries world-wide,there could be quite a few middle- class Spaniards with out-of- country investments. Not all Spaniards are poor as church mice.


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## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> Good to hear you're doing your bit to shore up the Spanish economy.
> 
> I hope to be able to redouble my efforts in that direction once I get my hands on those all important pensions. After all, no pockets in shrouds as the saying goes.


Way to go, gal. Flash that cash!!

See you in Puerto Banus...champagne lunch at La Sala..all in the cause of stimulating the Spanish economy and boosting employment, of course...


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## xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxenjoylife

*form 720*

is there somebody who has been fined for late
assets declarations so far ?


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## mrypg9

enjoylife said:


> is there somebody who has been fined for late
> assets declarations so far ?


If there were, I'm sure we would have heard about it.
It would arouse uproar and indignation equivalent to a public beheading.
Im Westen nichts Neues.


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## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> Way to go, gal. Flash that cash!!
> 
> See you in Puerto Banus...champagne lunch at La Sala..all in the cause of stimulating the Spanish economy and boosting employment, of course...


Hey,guess what? The day will be coming sooner than expected - I had some really, really good news today. The Trustees of my trade union final salary pension scheme have changed the rules regarding deferred benefits and I can now take mine any time after 1 July 2014 (with a small actuarial reduction of the pension, but no reduction at all in the lump sum, which I can hardly believe!). I'm going to take mine from the beginning of January next, I think. I'm having the letter from the Pensions Administrator framed.

I will, of course, have to pay tax here on the lump sum and make a 720 declaration at the end of next year, but it will be so good to have money coming in each month again rather than just watching the bank balance go down.


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## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> Hey,guess what? The day will be coming sooner than expected - I had some really, really good news today.  The Trustees of my trade union final salary pension scheme have changed the rules regarding deferred benefits and I can now take mine any time after 1 July 2014 (with a small actuarial reduction of the pension, but no reduction at all in the lump sum, which I can hardly believe!). I'm going to take mine from the beginning of January next, I think. I'm having the letter from the Pensions Administrator framed.
> 
> I will, of course, have to pay tax here on the lump sum and make a 720 declaration at the end of next year, but it will be so good to have money coming in each month again rather than just watching the bank balance go down.


Oh that's fantastic news!! Really pleased for you!! Power to the people...after all, pensions are deferred pay.

P.S. Mine's a (very) small G&T...and I'd love a thin, very thin, slice of a real pork pie, if they serve such common fare at La Sala..
They could put it on a posh plate....


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## extranjero

enjoylife said:


> is there somebody who has been fined for late
> assets declarations so far ?


I did read a few months ago about some one fined 500 euros for a small undeclared bank account, not the horrific amount we were led to believe, but it would be very easy money to pounce on a few ex pat accounts go through them with a fine tooth comb, and find something " wrong"


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## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> Oh that's fantastic news!! Really pleased for you!! Power to the people...after all, pensions are deferred pay.
> 
> P.S. Mine's a (very) small G&T...and I'd love a thin, very thin, slice of a real pork pie, if they serve such common fare at La Sala..
> They could put it on a posh plate....


I'll buy the whole pie - you can have your sliver, and I'll eat the rest!:happy:


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## xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxenjoylife

a friend she did the declaration only this year as she is resident
since 4 years in Spain
she worries a lot now,what might happen...
500 fine probably would be acceptable


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## Aron

enjoylife said:


> a friend she did the declaration only this year as she is resident
> since 4 years in Spain
> she worries a lot now,what might happen...
> 500 fine probably would be acceptable


They reckon 93% of what we worry about never happens! but in my case it's nearer 97% and do you know what, that's about right!


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## mrypg9

extranjero said:


> I did read a few months ago about some one fined 500 euros for a small undeclared bank account, not the horrific amount we were led to believe, but it would be very easy money to pounce on a few ex pat accounts go through them with a fine tooth comb, and find something " wrong"


Oh come on, can you imagine hacienda wasting their time going through immigrants' bank accounts? Anyway, you tell us they would find the equivalent of bare cupboards for most of us 

Where did you read about the fine, out of interest? And if you failed to declare a bank account in the UK, wouldn't HMRC pounce on you?

OH and I are currently being chased for in my case £750 and OH's case over £1000 for back tax from 2010 in my case, earlier in hers...but they have made a mistake in both cases. We have written several times to point this out with evidence but have yet to receive the courtesy of a reply. 
All we both get are letters telling us our fines have increased further. This has been going on for over two years.
And you worry about hacienda?? From previous posts I seem to remember you are not overly impressed by Spanish efficiency...so why worry so much?


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## mrypg9

P.S. to above post: next month I shall be going to the UK for my son's birthday do. Would you be worrying about a uniformed hand on your shoulder as you get off the plane on landing in the UK and an arrest for tax evasion?


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## Aron

extranjero said:


> I did read a few months ago about some one fined 500 euros for a small undeclared bank account, not the horrific amount we were led to believe, but it would be very easy money to pounce on a few ex pat accounts go through them with a fine tooth comb, and find something " wrong"


I made a mistake on the asset declaration. My gestor spotted it, informed the hacienda and they accepted it. What on earth are people worrying about!


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## Turtles

I expect they didn't really mean it when they said they would impose massive fines for every mistake. Probably that famous civil service sense of humour.


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## Aron

Turtles said:


> I expect they didn't really mean it when they said they would impose massive fines for every mistake. Probably that famous civil service sense of humour.


In life nobody is perfect, even those that think they are. Do your best, pay your dues, apologise when you get something wrong, then move on!


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## extranjero

mrypg9 said:


> Oh come on, can you imagine hacienda wasting their time going through immigrants' bank accounts? Anyway, you tell us they would find the equivalent of bare cupboards for most of us
> 
> Where did you read about the fine, out of interest? And if you failed to declare a bank account in the UK, wouldn't HMRC pounce on you?
> 
> OH and I are currently being chased for in my case £750 and OH's case over £1000 for back tax from 2010 in my case, earlier in hers...but they have made a mistake in both cases. We have written several times to point this out with evidence but have yet to receive the courtesy of a reply.
> All we both get are letters telling us our fines have increased further. This has been going on for over two years.
> And you worry about hacienda?? From previous posts I seem to remember you are not overly impressed by Spanish efficiency...so why worry so much?


It was in the Costa Blanca News, shortly after last years submission.
Why would I have to declare a bank account in the UK? HMRC know anyway-Savings tax and income tax was taken out at source. I didn't do self assessment!


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## Tom98

As I understandd it, late filing is 1500 Euro fine and up. Not filing and found out is 5000 Euro for each section that should have been filed. Then the big one with 150% fine. Only is found out and the moneyare black, ( and of spain origin ? ) Tom


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