# New couple; need info on registering gun in mexico



## romileti

Hello everyone,

We are new and we're planning on moving to Mexico in a few months. I am Army retired and my wife if from Veracruz, Mexico. I have many questions but I need to start by asking about registering a pistol (Glock 25 caliber). Can I get some advice? Is it too hard to register? Do I need to just sell it and forget it? Thanks in advance.


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## RVGRINGO

Please get rid of any illusions about having a weapon in Mexico. You may not bring even a spent shell casing into the country. That's a 'straight to jail' offense. Even hunters, who might want to bring a shotgun, must join a recognized club and jump through a lot of federal hoops. There is only one way to have a weapon in Mexico and it is very complicated; involving the Army and a single Mexican Army source for the weapon in Mexico City. It must not be a 'military or police' calibre and you can't transport it outside of your home. Knowledge of its existence might actually make you a target.
So, come and enjoy Mexico......peacefully.


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## mexliving

*glock 25*

that is a good question.... sell the glock... you cant inport a hand gun into mexico.
there is a law for hunters allowed to bring their hunting gear into mexico but its a complex process.

the mexican gun permit is given thorugh the mexico city department.... normally your local gun dealer (hunting rifle/shot gun) will do the paperwork for the mexican citizen.

so your wife should be able to get a permit for hunting rifle/shot gun.... if you want to have a weapon in your home.lane:

i will stop and ask my local authorized gun dealer about your glock , just to make sure.


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## BajaGringo

Some changes to the law were recently made and as a Mexican citizen, you can now apply for a permit have a gun up to a 38 caliber. It is not a simple process and does take some time/effort. 

Make sure that you do all the paperwork *BEFORE* bringing the gun/ammo into Mexico...


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## polamexpat

*Bringing (legally) a firearm (Beretta 92FS 9mm) into Mexico*



BajaGringo said:


> Some changes to the law were recently made and as a Mexican citizen, you can now apply for a permit have a gun up to a 38 caliber. It is not a simple process and does take some time/effort.
> 
> Make sure that you do all the paperwork *BEFORE* bringing the gun/ammo into Mexico...


By any chance, do you know how long it really takes to secure a firearm importation permit from the Mexican embassy or consulate in the U.S. if it is granted at all?


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## pappabee

Again, what's the deal. Mexico does not want NOB's to bring guns into the country. They have enough as it is. 

Sell the gun, give it away, find a hot fire but don't try to bring one into the country. If you must have protection get a large mean nasty dog that doesn't eat meat. (hard to poison).


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## ronb172

And Lord help you if you shoot and kill a Mexican National. Even if he broke into your home


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## polamexpat

ronb172 said:


> And Lord help you if you shoot and kill a Mexican National. Even if he broke into your home


So what are the options for an expat in Mexico to defend himself/herself during a home invasion by an intruder? Taser? Pepper spray? Kitchen knife? Or using these in self-defense will get you arrested as well?


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## Isla Verde

polamexpat said:


> So what are the options for an expat in Mexico to defend himself/herself during a home invasion by an intruder? Taser? Pepper spray? Kitchen knife? Or using these in self-defense will get you arrested as well?


Just curious. When was the last time you or someone you know was the victim of a home invasion?


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## phyllisinMichigan

Isla Verde said:


> Just curious. When was the last time you or someone you know was the victim of a home invasion?


In a small town in Northern Michigan it was earlier this week. Can't wait to leave, 11 days to go!!! I believe if you need your guns, stay home with them.


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## polamexpat

Isla Verde said:


> Just curious. When was the last time you or someone you know was the victim of a home invasion?


I found some info on LakesideCrime, Lake Chapala-Ajijic area crime reporting website. Please note these incidents have happened in Lake Chapala-Ajijic area which I would imagine are one of the safest areas in Mexico. Having lived for 13 years in Los Angeles County some time ago, personally, I did not experience any home invasion, just a stolen car radio at one time. However, when I visited my wife's family in Torreón (Coahuila) several times in not so distant past, I saw and heard very disturbing things. We plan to move to Mexico some time this year and needless to say Coahuila is not on the short list but Jalisco (south and south-west environs of Guadalajara), Tlaxcala and Campeche are being considered.


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## tepetapan

polamexpat said:


> I found some info on LakesideCrime, Lake Chapala-Ajijic area crime reporting website. Please note these incidents have happened in Lake Chapala-Ajijic area which I would imagine are one of the safest areas in Mexico. Having lived for 13 years in Los Angeles County some time ago, personally, I did not experience any home invasion, just a stolen car radio at one time. However, when I visited my wife's family in Torreón (Coahuila) several times in not so distant past, I saw and heard very disturbing things. We plan to move to Mexico some time this year and needless to say Coahuila is not on the short list but Jalisco (south and south-west environs of Guadalajara), Tlaxcala and Campeche are being considered.



Gun ownership in Poland is regulated by the Weapons and Munitions Act. A licence is required to keep and purchase firearms. As a result of very stringent controls, gun ownership in Poland is the lowest in the European Union, at one firearm per 100 citizens.[13] In order to get a gun license, one must:
Prove he/she is not a danger to himself nor to the general public by passing a psychological evaluation;
Submit an autobiography or curriculum vitae to the police;
Display that he/she has a clean criminal record;
Give a valid reason for wanting to own a gun, such as sport shooting or hunting. If the reason is self-defence, one must demonstrate why he/she believes his/her life is in danger;
Pass an exam in proper weapon handling (not required for members of PZSS and PZŁ).
The psychological evaluation must be repeated every 5 years. Some other weapons, such as crossbows, require the same license as is required for firearms.


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## polamexpat

tepetapan said:


> Gun ownership in Poland is regulated by the Weapons and Munitions Act. A licence is required to keep and purchase firearms. As a result of very stringent controls, gun ownership in Poland is the lowest in the European Union, at one firearm per 100 citizens.[13] In order to get a gun license, one must:
> Prove he/she is not a danger to himself nor to the general public by passing a psychological evaluation;
> Submit an autobiography or curriculum vitae to the police;
> Display that he/she has a clean criminal record;
> Give a valid reason for wanting to own a gun, such as sport shooting or hunting. If the reason is self-defence, one must demonstrate why he/she believes his/her life is in danger;
> Pass an exam in proper weapon handling (not required for members of PZSS and PZŁ).
> The psychological evaluation must be repeated every 5 years. Some other weapons, such as crossbows, require the same license as is required for firearms.


Thanks, tepetapan. What you wrote above about Poland is true but I am considering moving to Mexico, not Poland. I am a U.S. citizen and have been living in the U.S. for almost half of my lifetime. It is not my intention to question Mexican firearm possession laws. Rather, I am looking into ways to legally take my gun legally purchased in the U.S. long time ago with me to Mexico. If it is possible, of course.


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## conklinwh

Few things:
-I've never heard of a legal way to import a pistol and rifle for hunting requires a lot of work.
-There has been some loosening on ownership of pistol up to 38 and single shot rifle. There is still only one place to legally acquire the weapons and ammo but process is easier.
-There are certainly home breakins but probably less than the US and I have never heard of any breakin when the house was occupied. In fact the police basically say that if you don't want a breakin, have the place occupied 24 hrs a day.
-The defense weapon of choice here is bear spray which is a very strong pepper spray with a longer distance spray.


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## ronb172

I certainly see the the op's point here. I have a permit to carry and I do. Peace of mind. I would never expect a liberal to understand that, but I will not be a victim without a fight. However, I'm moving to Mexico and I'm learning their laws. I don't like all of them, but it's not my country, it's theirs. I plan on keeping a heavy wooden curtain rod (abut 3 foot long) handy to use as a club if I'm threatened in my home in Mexico. My guns will stay NOB.


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## Isla Verde

ronb172 said:


> I plan on keeping a heavy wooden curtain rod (abut 3 foot long) handy to use as a club if I'm threatened in my home in Mexico.


Why do you expect to be threatened in your home in Mexico? The whole thing sounds pretty surrealistic to me, especially the part about protecting yourself with a big fat curtain rod! Come to think of it, when my kitchen was invaded by a hoard of ants last week, I could have use a big stick like that to kill them!


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## mickisue1

polamexpat said:


> So what are the options for an expat in Mexico to defend himself/herself during a home invasion by an intruder? Taser? Pepper spray? Kitchen knife? Or using these in self-defense will get you arrested as well?


A home invasion implies that someone has declared war on your home.

One burglar, or even two or three, is not a home invasion, it's a robbery. And the last time I checked, human life is worth significantly more than property.

As noted above: get a dog. Living in a neighborhood where the neighbors look out for each other is a good idea, too.

Don't be ostentatious, and if you have anything really precious, buy a safe and bolt it to the floor.

But leave the guns in the US.


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## conklinwh

We have relied on two reasonably aggressive dogs and neighbors but there has been a rash of dog drugging and worse, even poisoning and there are way to approach any place.
We have upgraded security as deterrent but having somebody on site still the best.


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## polamexpat

mickisue1 said:


> A home invasion implies that someone has declared war on your home.
> 
> One burglar, or even two or three, is not a home invasion, it's a robbery. And the last time I checked, human life is worth significantly more than property.
> ...
> 
> But leave the guns in the US.


definition of home invasion

Regarding your last opinion on human life -- that depends. If it is only some property loss, I agree. If my family or my life were in danger, I strongly disagree. Not all burglars are Arsène Lupin type individuals, you know.


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## mickisue1

polamexpat said:


> definition of home invasion
> 
> Regarding your last opinion on human life -- that depends. If it is only some property loss, I agree. If my family or my life were in danger, I strongly disagree. Not all burglars are Arsène Lupin type individuals, you know.


Words have power. You can define something as an "invasion" and it then becomes a reasonable thing to kill a burglar.

Before you start talking about home invasion in MX, though, you really should look up the statistics and learn if VIOLENT intent is common in MX. Or, even, as common as in the US.

I am far from an expert on crime; I'm a nurse and a wellness coach. But I love words, and I love precision in the use of them.

Just because you can find a wiki defining any unlawful entry into a home as an invasion doesn't make it so.

I have seen several comments here about theft, and the steps that have been taken to avoid it.

I have seen none about people entering the home of gringos to cause physical harm to the occupants.

My comment was specific to property. Of course, if your life and physical well being are threatened, or that of those you love, you will defend yourself and them. That's not what I was discussing.


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## Guest

ronb172 said:


> I certainly see the the op's point here. I have a permit to carry and I do. Peace of mind. I would never expect a liberal to understand that, but I will not be a victim without a fight. However, I'm moving to Mexico and I'm learning their laws. I don't like all of them, but it's not my country, it's theirs. I plan on keeping a heavy wooden curtain rod (abut 3 foot long) handy to use as a club if I'm threatened in my home in Mexico. My guns will stay NOB.


When in Rome, do as the Romans:

-Protect your home the way Mexicans do - bars on the windows and doors, and an enclosed entryway. Yes, you might feel like you're living in a birdcage or jail cell at first, but you won't even notice them after two weeks. Any thieves will probably target any neighbors who don't have bars. Any town has an iron works that can create beautiful things - flowers, liles, Mexican themed things, etc to dress up your security bars into works of art at a modest cost.

-walls around your yard for privacy and protection, 

-if you're going out, have a few lights on timers that mimic your normal living patterns in the evenings to create the illusion that someone is home when you're not

-keep a low profile when outside your home, (leave the Armani stuff and Rolex up north)

-no strangers or outsiders inside your house (your garden or patio is your new living room for visitors), 

-don't give your personal information or telephone numbers to people you don't know extremely well,

-mind your manners with others even if you have to bite your tongue and express any bile later when you're alone - don't create bad memories or new enemies. Small things such as saying "good afternoon" when you see a neighbor do matter here, and Mexicans tend to get offended if you blow things like that off or don't return their greetings.

-get to know your neighbors and be neighborly - 10 or 20 ears and eyes are more effective for protection than just 2 of each. And humans do a better threat assessment than any dog can.

-leave the politics (and most religion discussions) at home, or throwing around words like "liberals" or "conservatives", etc. I am pretty close to many Mexicans, and they don't talk politics outside of their homes or in the presence of others. EVER. Period. You can save that for your new ****** friends if you must, but only in one of your homes and not in a public place..

-be REALLY careful with people you hire (housekeepers, repairmen, deliveries, etc) - if they work in your home, have copies of their ID, home address, etc. For repairmen or deliveries, stay right at their elbow while they work, pay them in small bills that don't require change, give them a small tip, and escort them out. Don't leave to answer the telephone, or go do something else until they are gone. Don't leave valuable things laying out in plain sight when they come to your home, or pull out a big roll of bills to pay them at the end of their job.

-if you're worried about "stuff" getting ripped off, then buy insurance and get advice from the agent.

- if you need a security blanket to feel safe inside your well-protected home, a well sharpened machete is much better than some old wooden curtain rod - it can also be used in your garden/lawn. 


-


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## polamexpat

GringoCArlos said:


> When in Rome, do as the Romans:
> 
> -Protect your home the way Mexicans do - bars on the windows and doors, and an enclosed entryway. Yes, you might feel like you're living in a birdcage or jail cell at first, but you won't even notice them after two weeks. Any thieves will probably target any neighbors who don't have bars. Any town has an iron works that can create beautiful things - flowers, liles, Mexican themed things, etc to dress up your security bars into works of art at a modest cost.
> 
> -walls around your yard for privacy and protection,
> 
> -if you're going out, have a few lights on timers that mimic your normal living patterns in the evenings to create the illusion that someone is home when you're not
> 
> -keep a low profile when outside your home, (leave the Armani stuff and Rolex up north)
> 
> -no strangers or outsiders inside your house (your garden or patio is your new living room for visitors),
> 
> -don't give your personal information or telephone numbers to people you don't know extremely well,
> 
> -mind your manners with others even if you have to bite your tongue and express any bile later when you're alone - don't create bad memories or new enemies. Small things such as saying "good afternoon" when you see a neighbor do matter here, and Mexicans tend to get offended if you blow things like that off or don't return their greetings.
> 
> -get to know your neighbors and be neighborly - 10 or 20 ears and eyes are more effective for protection than just 2 of each. And humans do a better threat assessment than any dog can.
> 
> -leave the politics (and most religion discussions) at home, or throwing around words like "liberals" or "conservatives", etc. I am pretty close to many Mexicans, and they don't talk politics outside of their homes or in the presence of others. EVER. Period. You can save that for your new ****** friends if you must, but only in one of your homes and not in a public place..
> 
> -be REALLY careful with people you hire (housekeepers, repairmen, deliveries, etc) - if they work in your home, have copies of their ID, home address, etc. For repairmen or deliveries, stay right at their elbow while they work, pay them in small bills that don't require change, give them a small tip, and escort them out. Don't leave to answer the telephone, or go do something else until they are gone. Don't leave valuable things laying out in plain sight when they come to your home, or pull out a big roll of bills to pay them at the end of their job.
> 
> -if you're worried about "stuff" getting ripped off, then buy insurance and get advice from the agent.
> 
> - if you need a security blanket to feel safe inside your well-protected home, a well sharpened machete is much better than some old wooden curtain rod - it can also be used in your garden/lawn.
> 
> 
> -


:clap2: Excellent post, GringoCArlos. Thank you.


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## FHBOY

GringoCArlos said:


> When in Rome, do as the Romans:
> 
> -Protect your home the way Mexicans do...can also be used in your garden/lawn.
> 
> Thank you GC, well put.
> 
> I just re-read the thread and there is something bothering me. The initial assumption is that moving to Mexico is somehow more dangerous than living in the USA. I find that an ill-informed assumption and wonder if it is more a product of propaganda/news coverage than expats have found in real life. I've lived over 60 years in all parts of the east coast, in houses, apartments etc and never had a "home invasion". Why? It is where I chose to live.
> 
> If the OP is concerned about this, then (s)he needs to do a lot more research before deciding where to move. To bring the "I own a gun, siege mentality" to a new place is not the idea of starting a new life. Most of Mexico is not the USA, and importing the attitude which brought about the Martin case, will turn it into a place that 99% of expats probably don't want to live.
> 
> Taking normal precautions outlined negates the need, in my mind, to arm oneself. Instead of suspecting your neighbors and your new culture, go out and embrace them and it. Instead of making it known that they should fear you ("I have a gun"), make it a point to try and make them like you. You will be better off in the long run.
> 
> Sorry to run on, but this whole "I've got a gun" attitude has turned me off. I'd tell the OP to stay in the USA, with his/her guns, and don't move next door to me in Mexico. I'll follow the common sense rules, I do not need your firearms. Sorry, just a bit annoyed.


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## mickisue1

FHBOY said:


> GringoCArlos said:
> 
> 
> 
> When in Rome, do as the Romans:
> 
> -Protect your home the way Mexicans do...can also be used in your garden/lawn.
> 
> Thank you GC, well put.
> 
> I just re-read the thread and there is something bothering me. The initial assumption is that moving to Mexico is somehow more dangerous than living in the USA. I find that an ill-informed assumption and wonder if it is more a product of propaganda/news coverage than expats have found in real life. I've lived over 60 years in all parts of the east coast, in houses, apartments etc and never had a "home invasion". Why? It is where I chose to live.
> 
> If the OP is concerned about this, then (s)he needs to do a lot more research before deciding where to move. To bring the "I own a gun, siege mentality" to a new place is not the idea of starting a new life. Most of Mexico is not the USA, and importing the attitude which brought about the Martin case, will turn it into a place that 99% of expats probably don't want to live.
> 
> Taking normal precautions outlined negates the need, in my mind, to arm oneself. Instead of suspecting your neighbors and your new culture, go out and embrace them and it. Instead of making it known that they should fear you ("I have a gun"), make it a point to try and make them like you. You will be better off in the long run.
> 
> Sorry to run on, but this whole "I've got a gun" attitude has turned me off. I'd tell the OP to stay in the USA, with his/her guns, and don't move next door to me in Mexico. I'll follow the common sense rules, I do not need your firearms. Sorry, just a bit annoyed.
> 
> 
> 
> +1
> 
> It's not just the Martin case. A young black kid was killed on somebody's front porch, in WI, recently. He was at a party, the police had been called for noise, and he was hiding. Just hiding.
> 
> But there's a law in WI that allows people to shoot intruders first, and ask questions, second.
> 
> That's why I am so adamant that "invasion" is an absurd word to use in reference to burglary. Many in the US have developed that siege mentality, and it's leading to bad laws, and dead kids.
Click to expand...


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## polamexpat

mickisue1 said:


> +1
> 
> ...
> 
> That's why I am so adamant that "invasion" is an absurd word to use in reference to burglary. Many in the US have developed that siege mentality, and it's leading to bad laws, and dead kids.


"Siege mentality" because of the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution? Imho, building walls around properties and bars in the windows are a manifestation of the siege mentality with the present day South Africa being the extreme case. Maybe because of the wide gun ownership you don't see this kind of fortification and siege mentality here in the U.S. If you think that *legal* private ownership of firearms (including military grade weapons) makes a country more dangerous, look at Switzerland and think again. I am going to respect local laws and customs when living in Mexico whether I like them or not. Nevertheless, I strongly disagree with the notion that legal private ownership of firearms by citizens and legal residents is a bad thing.


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## tepetapan

First off, do not understand why someone would write that they are expats of Poland when they want to compare the laws of the USA and Mexico. It seems that if you have spent half your life in the USA and are comparing the laws of the USA to the laws of mexico why not call yourself a future ExPat of the USA?
But whatever.
The interesting part of the gun laws in Poland was..." If the reason is self-defence, one must demonstrate why he/she believes his/her life is in danger;" That part of the law should be part of any country´s or state law. Why exactlly do you think your life is in danger?


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## pappabee

polamexpat said:


> "Siege mentality" because of the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution? Imho, building walls around properties and bars in the windows are a manifestation of the siege mentality with the present day South Africa being the extreme case. Maybe because of the wide gun ownership you don't see this kind of fortification and siege mentality here in the U.S. If you think that *legal* private ownership of firearms (including military grade weapons) makes a country more dangerous, look at Switzerland and think again. I am going to respect local laws and customs when living in Mexico whether I like them or not. Nevertheless, I strongly disagree with the notion that legal private ownership of firearms by citizens and legal residents is a bad thing.


If you want to question 'siege mentality' take a look at most downtown neighborhoods in the States. You see iron bars not only on residents but on business too. _Remember gun ownership is legal there_. When you rent an apartment or purchase a home one of the first questions asked is security. _Remember gun ownership is legal there_. The biggest selling point for "gated communities" is the security (guards 24/7) _Remember gun ownership is legal there_. 

OK enough of the satire. Guns are legal in the States and you still have more crime that in Mexico. Guns are legal in the States and most inner city areas are covered with iron bars. Guns are legal in the States and more people die from random shootings than in Mexico. 

The Mexican Government has said that it does not want ANYONE to have a gun (with the exception of law enforcement) and you might want to know why? One of the common causes listed is because of the threat of revolution or insurrection. That might have been the case 100 years ago but not really now. Another reason given is that they don't want guns to be available to the drug cartels and gangs. That's interesting because they are currently better armed than the law enforcement and certainly have better fire power than any NOB would be able to bring into the country. 

So why don't they want residents to have guns. Simply put-JUST BECAUSE.
And that's all WE have to know. 

As has been said before, if you feel you need a gun to live in Mexico--PLEASE DON'T. The large majority of us cannot vote so what we need to do is just follow the rules and understand that Mexico does not have to tell us WHY just WHAT.


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## FHBOY

polamexpat said:


> "Siege mentality ...legal private ownership of firearms by citizens and legal residents is a bad thing.


This Forum has not been the place for traditional issue oriented blog stuff, eg: the debate on guns, politics, religion, etc. It is a place for discussion of those things that concern expats. I was going to respond to the "Gun Lobby Standard Line" as quoted by Polamexpat, but simply do not want to get into that.

Mexico is not the USA, and therefore to argue 2nd Amendment rights is moot. If one is scared (wary) of going into a new situation, then simply, as I've stated, don't. If, like the OP, you are going to do it anyway, "even if you don't like it", you may never find your way into the society you profess to want to join. Coming into a situation where you don't agree, prima facie, with it's values can only cause conflict, within or without. If one feels safe only with ones weapons, one probably will never feel safe without them.


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## polamexpat

tepetapan said:


> First off, do not understand why someone would write that they are expats of Poland when they want to compare the laws of the USA and Mexico. It seems that if you have spent half your life in the USA and are comparing the laws of the USA to the laws of mexico why not call yourself a future ExPat of the USA? ...


I think I am in a similar situation to GringoCArlos's. Based on his flag, he is originally from Belgium but having read some of his postings, apparently he lived in the U.S. and maybe -- like myself -- is a U.S. citizen as well. Since the forum description for the flag is "originally from", I chose Polish flag because this is the country where I am originally from. I duly typed in 'USA' for my place of current residence. Sorry for the confusion it has caused.


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## polamexpat

GringoCArlos said:


> When in Rome, do as the Romans:
> 
> -Protect your home the way Mexicans do - bars on the windows and doors, and an enclosed entryway. Yes, you might feel like you're living in a birdcage or jail cell at first, but you won't even notice them after two weeks. Any thieves will probably target any neighbors who don't have bars. Any town has an iron works that can create beautiful things - flowers, liles, Mexican themed things, etc to dress up your security bars into works of art at a modest cost.
> ...
> 
> -


I don't mind bars on the windows too much. My concern is emergency escape routes in case of fire. Not having the bars gives you more options to escape from it.


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## Detailman

polamexpat said:


> I think I am in a similar situation to GringoCArlos's. Based on his flag, he is originally from Belgium but having read some of his postings, apparently he lived in the U.S. and maybe -- like myself -- is a U.S. citizen as well. Since the forum description for the flag is "originally from", I chose Polish flag because this is the country where I am originally from. I duly typed in 'USA' for my place of current residence. Sorry for the confusion it has caused.


It would appear that you are fairly new to this thread. 

GringoCarlos is from Belgium "this" week. But it changes almost every week. He is extremely knowledgeable about many subjects but somewhat confused as to where he is from. :confused2::confused2: Don't pay attention to that part -- just to what he says!


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## Guest

polamexpat said:


> I don't mind bars on the windows too much. My concern is emergency escape routes in case of fire. Not having the bars gives you more options to escape from it.


Most houses in MX are built from either concrete, brick or adobe, including the floors/ceilings/roofs and there aren't a lot of combustibles. Electricity distribution is encased in concrete, and most houses don't have heating systems that could catch fire. Most houses also have two doors out.


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## polamexpat

GringoCArlos said:


> Most houses in MX are built from either concrete, brick or adobe, including the floors/ceilings/roofs and there aren't a lot of combustibles. Electricity distribution is encased in concrete, and most houses don't have heating systems that could catch fire. Most houses also have two doors out.


Thanks, GringoCArlos. Btw, seeing the Chilean flag (used to be Belgian ), now I see what Detailman meant in the previous posting...:confused2: Coincidentally, I was considering relocation to Chile before deciding to go along with Mexico.


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## Grizzy

FHBOY said:


> Sorry to run on, but this whole "I've got a gun" attitude has turned me off. I'd tell the OP to stay in the USA, with his/her guns, and don't move next door to me in Mexico. I'll follow the common sense rules, I do not need your firearms. Sorry, just a bit annoyed.



Ditto :clap2:


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## Isla Verde

Detailman said:


> It would appear that you are fairly new to this thread.
> 
> GringoCarlos is from Belgium "this" week. But it changes almost every week. He is extremely knowledgeable about many subjects but somewhat confused as to where he is from. :confused2::confused2: Don't pay attention to that part -- just to what he says!


I'm waiting to read that GringoCArlos is "Originally from the Moon"  .


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## mickisue1

Isla Verde said:


> I'm waiting to read that GringoCArlos is "Originally from the Moon"  .


I wonder what his flag will look like?:confused2:


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## Isla Verde

mickisue1 said:


> I wonder what his flag will look like?:confused2:


Excellent question. Maybe we could ask for ideas from members of the forum.


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## pappabee

Isla Verde said:


> Excellent question. Maybe we could ask for ideas from members of the forum.


How about a black banner with a white circle in the center and a happy face in the middle of the circle?


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## Isla Verde

pappabee said:


> How about a black banner with a white circle in the center and a happy face in the middle of the circle?


If I had my own flag, I'd want a green one with a yellow circle in the middle and a perplexed smilie in the middle of that.


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## FHBOY

Isla Verde said:


> If I had my own flag, I'd want a green one with a yellow circle in the middle and a perplexed smilie in the middle of that.


Here is a great idea about a moon flag: 
http://kauilapele.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/moon_pie_logo.jpg

And a general idea, courtesy of Eddie Izzard about flags:





Didn't one of the US Presidential candidates want to put his flag on the Moon?


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## Guest

I aim to please.... )


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## Grizzy

GringoCArlos said:


> I aim to please.... )


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## Isla Verde

GringoCArlos said:


> I aim to please.... )


GringoCArlos, remember there are ladies present  !


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## Grizzy

Darn. Does that mean I have to act like a lady?


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## mickisue1

Grizzy said:


> Darn. Does that mean I have to act like a lady?


Only if you want to.


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## Isla Verde

mickisue1 said:


> Only if you want to.


Oh, mickisue, you beat me to the punch! That's what I was about to post.


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## FHBOY

Isla Verde said:


> Oh, mickisue, you beat me to the punch! That's what I was about to post.


Wemmen - so original!

You know what they say (courtesy of "True Lies"): Wemmen, can't live with 'em, can't shoot 'em."

See how clever - the topic is back on track  :focus:


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## mickisue1

Isla Verde said:


> Oh, mickisue, you beat me to the punch! That's what I was about to post.






And as for you, FHboy: :tongue1:


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## dongringo

This is a personal experience - not to be relied on in other situations.

I locally purchased an antique 38 caliber revolver. I had my "stepson" do the paper work.
After submitting the weapon to the local army base and completing dozens of forms. (while lying about the source of the revolver), the pistol became legal in about 40 days.

I am not a gun nut, but locally in beautiful downtown Catemaco, Veracruz, if I want, I can purchase anything I might want, subject to waiting periods, possibly excluding rocket launchers. 
And that consistently surprises the hell out of me, knowing the extraordinarily tough regulations of gun ownership in Meico.


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## mickisue1

dongringo said:


> This is a personal experience - not to be relied on in other situations.
> 
> I locally purchased an antique 38 caliber revolver. I had my "stepson" do the paper work.
> After submitting the weapon to the local army base and completing dozens of forms. (while lying about the source of the revolver), the pistol became legal in about 40 days.
> 
> I am not a gun nut, but locally in beautiful downtown Catemaco, Veracruz, if I want, I can purchase anything I might want, subject to waiting periods, possibly excluding rocket launchers.
> And that consistently surprises the hell out of me, knowing the extraordinarily tough regulations of gun ownership in Meico.


....That's assuming that you are willing to lie to do so.

Which, of course, is illegal, so you are back at square one, aren't you?


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## tepetapan

mickisue1 said:


> ....That's assuming that you are willing to lie to do so.
> 
> Which, of course, is illegal, so you are back at square one, aren't you?


 Sure it is illegal but when you get down to the facts, one lie feeds another lie.
Would the Mexican Federal government or the Mexican Army use an internet posting, in English , to persue Federal charges? Would someone advise the Mexican government of a person who claims to have an illegal weapon in Mexico ?
Who, in fact, would claim to break such a Federal Law in these days and times? The whole thing stinks but maybe Federal Officials may think different upon review or maybe they will just add it to a growing file. Who Knows.


----------



## mickisue1

tepetapan said:


> Sure it is illegal but when you get down to the facts, one lie feeds another lie.
> Would the Mexican Federal government or the Mexican Army use an internet posting, in English , to persue Federal charges? Would someone advise the Mexican government of a person who claims to have an illegal weapon in Mexico ?
> Who, in fact, would claim to break such a Federal Law in these days and times? The whole thing stinks but maybe Federal Officials may think different upon review or maybe they will just add it to a growing file. Who Knows.


That wasn't really my point. There are little laws, and there are big ones. Gun laws are big, going five MPH over the speed limit is little.

While it can be argued, and is, that any lie is a lie and breaking any law is breaking the law, it still seems to me that we can't expect others to be honest and law abiding in the big stuff if we are not.


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## Mark1

TO: OP
- (You don't need me to tell you this, but for what it's worth, your concern about a home invasion is perfectly reasonable. In Connecticut they recently gave the death penalty to 2 slugs who committed a home invasion, raped and burned-to-death 2 or 3 women.)
- The majority of forum participants on this forum are expats; by definition, not Mexican citizens. They are entitled to their opinions; they are mostly Americans. However, they are not our hosts. Mexican citizens are our hosts. Your wife and my wife. When in Rome, the Romans are our hosts.
- The Mexican constitution guarantees both citizens and residents (FM2/Inmigrante) to have a gun in their homes for protection. Inasmuch as that is the supreme law of our hosts' land, it is our hosts' policy.
- I share your concern and am actively inquiring into the same question as you. So far, I have learned the following.
- No apparent legal way to import a weapon (other than temporarily as a hunter or target shooter while on a temporary visa - not our case.
- Perfectly legal to buy a legal weapon from the Army's gun store in Mexico City. You get a permit for a day or two to bring the gun to your home. 
- Difficult - though possible - to take the gun from your home for a gun-club organized target shooting event. Don't know much about this.
- So long as you keep your gun in your home, Mexicans don't seem to be the least bit annoyed that you have a gun.
- Whether the gun was acquired legally or illegally, so long as it remains in the home, Mexicans don't seem to be the least bit annoyed that you have a gun. A dear friend remarked "Todos tienen" (everybody has them). 
- I'd advise you to do the paperwork and buy your gun at the Army store so that it's perfectly kosher. 
- Walls, bars, doors, etc. are your first line of defense; not your last line-of-defense. Most likely, if you do these things well, you will be safe; except for the case where someone persuades you to open the door or rushes you when you open your door to enter/leave. Thereupon, you will either have a 2'nd/last line of defense or no further line of defense. (You know this, but others might need it spelled-out).
- Mexicans are concerned about their own safety; much more so than we Americans. It's part of their culture; it's not necessarily indicative of a higher level of danger. It's futile to compare the relative risk of one unspecified neighborhood in the US to another unspecified neighborhood in Mexico. In America, when seconds count, the police will be there any minute. In Mexico, when seconds count, the police or army will be there as soon as the gunfire dies down. 
- I've never seen a Mexican who kept his home firearm at-hand where he could reach it in an emergency. (I take it for granted that Todos tienen; they just aren't physically ready to use them.)
- In the highly unlikely event that you need to shoot a home invader in your home, I trust that you will figure out what you need to do at the moment and will attend to the legal consequences later.
- Just to be sure, I checked with my niece. She is a Mexican lawyer, albeit she doesn't practice criminal law. She assured me that if I shoot a home invader that I will probably be taken to the police station for interrogation; however, a lawyer will probably have little difficulty resolving the matter. I recommend you consult a trusted Mexican lawyer for an authoritative explanation of what to expect in such an unlikely scenario.
- (My niece ran a red-light and someone crashed into her. She was taken to the police station and locked up for a few hours. Met some interesting people in the slammer; apart from that, wasn't a bad experience.) Probably not fair to compare a dead home-invader to running a red-light; even so, a trip to the police station need not dissuade you from doing what you need to do so long as it's lawful.
- In the past year the Mexican government and Army have become much more stringent about guns. My brother-in-law reports that one of his patient's - a retired Mexican general - has given-away his collection so as to not jeopardize his pension by being caught with arms that he isn't authorized to have. Another niece's father-in-law has a body-guard who has a carry permit. However, he no longer carries. Illegal caliber guns and street carry are now very touchy.
Hope this is of some help.
Mark


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## FHBOY

Mark1 said:


> TO: OP
> - (You don't need me to tell ...Illegal caliber guns and street carry are now very touchy.
> Hope this is of some help.
> Mark


Mark: I am not one of those that support this type of "I've got a gun" behavior, but saying that, I thank you for the time and effort you put into your reply to the question. It is reasonable and unemotional, very good.

Now a question: In the hypothetical case where you are forced at your door or entrance gate by a would be invader, how would having a gun, let's say locked responsibly in a gun case in, let's say, even in your living room, help? By then you would be functionally disabled. I can't think that the invader would let you out of his/her sight, give you time to find the keys to the lock box, load the weapon and then confront him/her. I would think by the time the invader got beyond the first line of defense, unless you are carrying, a gun in the house is pretty useless.

Then you'd be in violation of Mexican law and no matter what, would be guilty until proven innocent. It is a problem for those who agree with unrestricted gun carry laws.


----------



## Mark1

FHBOY said:


> Mark: I am not one of those that support this type of "I've got a gun" behavior, but saying that, I thank you for the time and effort you put into your reply to the question. It is reasonable and unemotional, very good.
> 
> Now a question: In the hypothetical case where you are forced at your door or entrance gate by a would be invader, how would having a gun, let's say locked responsibly in a gun case in, let's say, even in your living room, help? By then you would be functionally disabled. I can't think that the invader would let you out of his/her sight, give you time to find the keys to the lock box, load the weapon and then confront him/her. I would think by the time the invader got beyond the first line of defense, unless you are carrying, a gun in the house is pretty useless.
> 
> Then you'd be in violation of Mexican law and no matter what, would be guilty until proven innocent. It is a problem for those who agree with unrestricted gun carry laws.


Thank you for your kind remarks.

I'm having trouble understanding your hypothetical. You seem to start out by assuming that you are forced at your door; and, then end up where you seem to be carrying in the street.

I think that there are 4 scenarios to consider separately.

1. you are surprised to find someone is breaking into your house or has broken into your house when you are not answering the door. This is primarily a gun-at-your-bedside case. If you are exceptionally paranoid you can "carry" while in your house. Not much more to be said here.

2. You answer the doorbell. You are now on-alert. Either you recognize the person at the door or you don't. In either case, you either send them away or you open the door. In the latter case, either the person is trustworthy or not. In the latter case, he might jump you.

Here, the first line of defense is to be extremely skeptical about whom you open the door for. Even so, you might be duped; and we have to consider that risk in this discussion. I see 2 scenarios.

First, there is the forced door scenario. You open the door with the expectation of taking a delivery and the assailant forces the door open. There are 3 things to do to prepare for this scenario. First, you should have a serious door chain or other blocking mechanism such that - no matter how big he is - he can't force the door open far enough to enter. Second, a door-stop+alarm. These are made for - e.g., a traveler to use on a hotel door. If the door is forced into the wedge door-stop the alarm sounds. This ought to knock the intruder off his game-plan. Finally, before you open your door you retrieve your gun, verify it's loaded and chambered and at-hand in case your confidence was not well placed. You are carrying - INSIDE your house.
Obviously, if you have to unlock your gun safe, the person waiting at the door will have to wait a few minutes longer. Mexicans are very patient people; they will cheerfully give you a few extra minutes to find your keys, remember where you left your gun safe, unlock it and check to make sure you are locked and loaded.

The second scenario is that you elect to admit the person ringing the doorbell. This IS going to happen. You will receive water deliveries, propane deliveries, tradesmen to fix things. You are expecting these people; maybe you recognize them; but, employers have turn-over. There is always the remote possibility that the person you invite into your home will jump you. 
I think the chances of such an event are extremely remote. I would hardly worry about it at all. Even so, you asked, and this is a possibility to consider. 
Here, I would discretely carry - remember, you are INSIDE your home. I'd also try to have at least one other person, preferably 2+ in the house at the time, and everyone keep some distance from the person invited into your home. (The propane delivery man won't expect an invitation from your wife to tango while filling your tank.) Under such circumstances the opportunity to get the jump on you will be relatively poor and your ability to respond will be improved.

3. - You are either leaving your house headed to the street or returning from the street and entering your house. Here, you don't have the right to be armed; so, at these points and while you are on the street, you are vulnerable. 
Not a lot I can do to help you here. Your choice of residence is the primary consideration. Can you see from your house to the street to observe anyone suspicious lurking in the area? Can you park your car and enter your house safely after reviewing the street in front of your house to ascertain that there is no one suspicious lurking in the area? Living in a gated community largely solves these problems. Otherwise, it's a choice of where you buy/rent. If possible, arrange for inside-your-gate parking and a remote control gate opener. 

4. - While you are on the street you are somewhat vulnerable. If you are inside your car I don't see that a gun would do you any good. If confronted by an armed assailant I would assume that they are in a better position to shoot you than you would be to shoot back. The cheapest defense is to drive the worst car you can tolerate. The expensive defense is to bullet-proof your car; however, that's very costly and probably not a realistic option for most of us no matter how much piece of mind it might buy. 
Walking on the street also leaves you vulnerable. Simply stay out of any marginal to worse neighborhoods and off the streets after dusk. Stay in busy areas.

All in all, I - as an alien - would not carry outside my home without finding some means of obtaining a permit; and, the prospect of doing that is very dim. 

As for a Mexican citizen, that is - in my personal opinion - a separate matter. If a Mexican were stopped carrying a weapon illegally, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the police/army would merely confiscate the gun and leave you alone. Nor would I be surprised if they hauled the Mexican to jail. Even so, I'd expect that the Mexican would have less difficulty extracting himself from the predicament than the alien. 

Some of the equation is going to lie in the Mexican's reputation in the place of carry and the on-the-ground conditions in the place of carry. E.g., let's imagine your wife were carrying in her ancestral village where the police know her family to be of good reputation. Illegal carry might not be an issue at all. However, if she were unknown to the local constabulary and - worse - the area were a current hotbed of narco-violence, then the proposition would be extremely risky. 

You could hire a body-guard who might be able to get a permit.

My niece told me that the army has introduced recent programs of providing convoy service and armed guard service for free or a reasonable price. I know virtually nothing about these programs; however, if you needed to travel someplace dangerous on occasion, they might be a reasonable precaution. 

I would prefer that Mexico adopt a more flexible approach to carry; but, that is unlikely to happen. 
I understand that a carry permit is feasible in: Belize; Guatemala; Costa Rica; and, Panama. Belize and Guatemala might be more dangerous than Mexico. Costa Rica and Panama might be safer. In any case, our wives are Mexicans and so there are advantages to expatriating to Mexico that aren't available to us in other countries.

My suggestion would be to seek a place to live in Mexico where it is quite safe. E.g., I can't imagine a safer place than Cozumel or Isla Mujeres. These particular islands might not fit into your plans; but, they are examples of perfectly safe locations. Depending on the State(s) you have in mind, you can probably identify a place where there is neither narco-crime nor serious non-narco crime. In such a place you wouldn't have anything to worry about while on-the-street. 

Once you settle down in a place where you can feel safe, get yourselves plugged into the Mexican community. Find like-minded Mexican friends who enjoy hunting and target shooting. Learn what you can from these friends. Perhaps you can join a gun club and participate in target shooting outings. (Keep your groupings tight.) 
I imagine you will gain a sense of the degree - if any - your Mexican sportsmen friends feel un-safe in the streets. They should be able to tell you where to avoid traveling and when to be safe at home rather than out in the streets. I don't think that you will find many Mexicans who see the risk/reward favoring carrying outside the home. 

That last remark is not apt to be entirely satisfactory. It isn't entirely satisfactory to me either. Nevertheless, a variety of considerations are at stake about living in Mexico. On balance, they favor Mexico in spite of the restrictions on carry and active participation in shooting sports.

Regards,
Mark


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## ACE_Gringo

They just had a guy on Locked Up Overseas that got caught with a Walther P22 on a farm outside of Guadalajara. He got 10 years in prison for possessing a gun without a license. And I don't believe a foreigner can even get a proper license for a gun. I think you have to be a citizen. Call the Mexican embassy and ask then. Simple enough. But do not try and lie to the Mexican government. They would be more than happy to lock a ****** up in a heart beat.

One more thing... you do NOT have the right to kill someone in Mexico for breaking into your home. You have to PROVE your life was in danger. And in a Mexican court the burden of proof is heavy and as a defendant you wont even be in the court room for your own trial. The lawyer will "fight" for you while you sit in a room.

Do you really want to test those waters??


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## 146028

Mark1 said:


> The Mexican constitution guarantees both citizens and residents (FM2/Inmigrante) to have a gun in their homes for protection. Inasmuch as that is the supreme law of our hosts' land, it is our hosts' policy.
> Mark


Ok, the constitution says that you have the right to own a gun, but they still control the means by which you obtain the gun.

*Artí**** 10.* Los habitantes de los Estados Unidos Mexicanos tienen derecho a poseer armas en su
domicilio, para su seguridad y legítima defensa, con excepción de las prohibidas por la Ley Federal y de
las reservadas para el uso exclusivo del Ejército, Armada, Fuerza Aérea y Guardia Nacional.* La ley
federal determinará los casos, condiciones, requisitos y lugares en que se podrá autorizar a los
habitantes la portación de armas.
*

CONSTITUCIÓN POLÍTICA DE LOS ESTADOS UNIDOS MEXICANOS

So that pretty much means that it's not illegal to get one, just really difficult.

If it wasn't a right then it wouldn't be legal at all. 



Mark1 said:


> So long as you keep your gun in your home, Mexicans don't seem to be the least bit annoyed that you have a gun.
> Mark


maybe that's because they don't even know you have one?



Mark1 said:


> A dear friend remarked "Todos tienen" (everybody has them).
> Mark


What part of Mexico are you referring to? Unless you live in a city like Ciudad Juarez, it's not that common for people to own their own guns.



Mark1 said:


> In the highly unlikely event that you need to shoot a home invader in your home, I trust that you will figure out what you need to do at the moment and will attend to the legal consequences later.
> Mark


There is other consequences to consider, depending on who you shoot. More times than not though, if you kill someone, the family of the intruder will never leave you alone. They will not rest until you're dead. If you shoot him and he doesn't die, then he won't leave you alone until he gets revenge. After all, most murder cases in Mexico are acts of revenge.

Edit: why is the word "article" in Spanish sensor?


----------



## FHBOY

Mark1 said:


> Thank you for your kind remarks....Regards,
> Mark


Mark,
My hypothetical was based on an incident in Ajijic last year where an expat lost his life. The short story of it was that he resisted a robbery after he'd parked his car and was removing some groceries (you'll need to look it up - there were many posts here and elsewhere about it). [Note: in the entire population of the Chapala/Ajijic area, this was one of I believe only seven major crime incidents last year]. That is the real world example I was using and while I appreciate your scenarios, one thing seems to be common in all of it - first line of defense is not carrying or even having a gun in a lock box in your house.

I cannot visualize a life where it is felt that to open a door, answer a doorbell, or the like means that one must have a gun with them, or ready at arms length. That is not living, that is defending and being perpetually frightened of your surroundings, the image of exploring the deepest darkest Africa surrounded by predators comes to mind. I would not live there, nor live in a neighborhood where that was how I had to live. Why put yourself in that position to begin with? Yes, there is crime everywhere, put the idea is to reduce the odds by choosing a safe place first.

If you are sleeping and there is a break in, which means your perimeter security measures was breached, and you really knew how to use a gun, I still wonder if you'd be able to shoot a person. Again, you cannot know that until it happens, and if the invader only has robbery on his/her mind, is it worth the risk that they, too, will be armed? I'd rather lose property than confront and possibly lose my life, or the life of my family. [As to property, that is what safe deposit boxes and safes are for - even in the USA most people do not keep extreme valuables in their homes - and anything else can be replaced].

Lastly, in Mexico, there is that guilty until proven innocent factor, unlike the USA. If one has become an expat and one of the reasons, as it appears in this thread, is that life in the USA has become dangerous, then why expose yourself to a justice system that can only complicate the situation and make the stay in a place of respite another nightmare? If that is the feeling one has, the simplistic answer is: don't move there.

Yes, all of the scenarios you described may be ones worst nightmare, but prevention, short of arming oneself is still the most viable alternative. Know where you want to live is safe, make sure the perimeter security is adequate, be modest in your dress and actions, remember that jewels and paintings and cash is replaceable, but your life isn't, and lastly, in Mexico, remember you are the stranger, the outsider and your status in a real life court of law will not be a position of leverage.

Whoever said it was right: An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure [a gun].


----------



## AlanMexicali

polynomial said:


> Ok, the constitution says that you have the right to own a gun, but they still control the means by which you obtain the gun.
> 
> *Artí**** 10.* Los habitantes de los Estados Unidos Mexicanos
> 
> Edit: why is the word "article" in Spanish sensor?



Because the word has a **** in it. Article = articulo Check it out in the dictionary and you will see.


----------



## Mark1

TO: Questioner, location is Puebla. No doubt, there are plenty of variations throughout the country. Also, plenty of variations among groups of acquaintances. I wouldn't be surprised if someone said they didn't know of anybody in Mexico who had a gun. 

TO: OP,

I would expect any burglar who takes any pride in his profession to break into my house only when he was convinced no one is home. That said, anyone can make a mistake. The home owner ought to make it evident that his house is occupied so as to avoid creating the basis for a misunderstanding.

Generally, houses in Mexico are designed with more attention to security than those in the US. To break into a house in Mexico requires a concerted effort compared to those in the US. A break-in in Mexico is somewhat less likely to be an accident (someone having had a few too many entering into the wrong house.)

The homeowner confronted by an intruder needs to sort-out quickly whether the intruder is:
- someone entitled to be there (another occupant, visitor, kid home from college un-announced, neighbor looking into some apparent problem - smoke from your house - police executing a warrant, army, something else that doesn't occur to me)
- a burglar who isn't interested in harming anyone
- a home invader who plans to terrorize the occupants for pleasure or profit.

By all means, you need to rule-out the 1'st possibility. 

It's going to be hard to distinguish the 2'nd from the 3'rd possibility. May God help anyone having to make this decision.

While the probability of a burglar not inclined to harm anyone is higher than the home invader with that goal intended, I'm wary of low-probability/high-consequenes. I'm prepared to presume that the percentage of psychopaths in Mexico is lower than that prevailing in my home country; I'm also prepared to expect that Mexcio's psychopaths have cultivated their proclivities to a finer art than my countrymen-psycopaths. 

After you rule-out the possibility that the intruder is someone who belongs in your home, you are facing a question of whether the intruder warrants the benefit of the doubt. If you have children in the house or a wife in the house then you have to weigh that question from the perspective of a fiduciary. You had the means to resist; you chose to give the benefit of the doubt. There may be consequences incurred by others who were entitled to rely upon your means and judgement. If you are home alone, then it's entirely your call.

In light of the above considerations, I have great difficulty understanding the point that a dead Mexican's family will resort to vengeance. That may be so; to simplify the discussion, I will concede that reasonable assumption. I fail to see how that alters my judgement as to what to do if I fear for the lives of those in my house. Let's see, I would rather take my chances with a probable simple burglar rather than take my chances escaping the wrath of his otherwise law-abiding family members? Take a risk of swift death in order to reduce the risk of deferred death? After I kill an intruder in Mexico I can't leave the place where his family members live? I can't reconsider my decision to live in Mexico and take up the alternatives of returning to the US or to some other country? 

I acknowledge and submit to the jurisdiction of the Mexican courts. If I didn't do so, then I'd stay where I do respect the jurisdiction of the judicial system. Mexicans want to live in safety as much as anyone anywhere else in the world. If you did - in fact - act in self-defense then the evidence to that effect is apt to be persuasive and I would expect justice will be done. If you acted rashly and killed a guest or employee without ruling out the possibility of a mistaken identity, then you deserve to be punished. 

I didn't know what actual/hypothetical indecent you had in mind. I take it that the crime was in a "street" venue. 

I don't feel qualified to speak to that situation beyond the following remark. If the perpetrator wants to move you from where to are to any other place then your first instinct ought to be to resist. Your position won't get better when he moves you to the place he wants you to be.

The reader's first response is apt to be: Well, what if he just wants to take you to his favorite ATM? My answer to that is to avoid carrying credit cards whenever feasible. Carry enough cash to satisfy the perpetrator. Give him your wallet and tell him you carry cash, not cards. Volunteer to strip if necessary to prove you have no cards. Now, then, having removed the pretext of visiting the ATM, you can assess his real motive. If he still wants to move you, the implication is not good. I think you are better off running even at the risk of being shot in the back. Few perpetrators will be marksmen with handguns. The farther away you are from him the less likely he is to hit you in a vital area. 
What a kidnapper will do with you at leisure is a far greater risk then a fatal gunshot wound.

It's simply imprudent to defend your groceries, wallet, car from someone whose only obvious intention is to steal the property you are in possession of at the moment. 

A possibility is a bullet-resistant jacket. These are not unreasonably priced and seem reasonable for casual ware. What you will want to use won't stop an illegal calibre handgun round; and, there is no reason to presume that your perpetrator illegally possesses a legal-calibre handgun. However, he might have a legal-calibre handgun and the jacket you are willing to ware may reduce the damage caused by such a round; thereby possibly making the difference between a fatal vs. non-fatal wound. 

I suppose that the incident you refer to illustrates that even a reasonably safe area is not entirely safe. Nor are relatively safe areas in the US entirely safe. So, we all take our chances.

The empirical evidence of the US experience with increasing numbers of States with Shall-Issue permit laws strongly supports concealed carry as a deterrent. It doesn't solve crime completely, but, it reduces it by far more than opponents are willing to admit.

I'm afraid that Mexico and many "Blue" US States will stick to the position that only:
- government officials (police, military);
- the elite (politicians, wealthy, famous, and their friends); and,
- criminals in the ordinary practice of their chosen profession 
may have the means of self-defense. The universally-acknowledged natural right of self-defense is not an entitlement authorized by the State. 
Sad as it is to acknowledge this, the US is one of a relatively few jurisdictions with a relatively healthy respect to that natural right. 

I hope that I've addressed your questions.
Mark


----------



## FHBOY

Mark, With all due respect, your last post sets up too many hypotheticals, and I wonder how many of them contributors to this Forum have heard about or, God forbid, experienced. To be sure we can make situations that justify the use of lethal force, but isn't the question, at least in this Forum: 
• How often does it happen? 
• Where are the incidents apparently happening more frequently? 
• Who is involved? 
• What actually happened and then what were the consequences?

Your point about the perimeter security of housing in Mexico is correct. My home in the USA has less perimeter security than our house in Mexico, but, as said before, we are in a neighborhood where there has been no crime, knock wood, for at least 10-15 years (other than a car break-in a couple of times.) This heightened perimeter security seems to negate the need for a firearm more in Mexico than in the USA.

Question: if a firearm cannot be carried outside your home in Mexico, will a person have a fear of walking the streets, going to the market, seeing a film and therefore be content to live in "fortress casa" with their firearm due to these fears? Is that living?

I am not a gun owner, but I assume that those who have guns (not hunting weapons) have a feeling that it makes them more secure. We cannot argue with feelings, yours, theirs, mine are as legitimate as they can be. But it is when feelings come up against a factual reality, proven factual reality, that one needs to re-evaluate these (and any other) feelings.

In the end, we will all do whatever we feel we must do. It is obvious that I do not feel the need, either here in the USA or in Mexico to own a firearm for personal defense. Will that someday make me dead? Possibly, but not probably, for I can control the factors I mentioned previously to abrogate risk.


----------



## mickisue1

Mark1 said:


> TO: Questioner, location is Puebla. No doubt, there are plenty of variations throughout the country. Also, plenty of variations among groups of acquaintances. I wouldn't be surprised if someone said they didn't know of anybody in Mexico who had a gun.
> 
> TO: OP,
> 
> I would expect any burglar who takes any pride in his profession to break into my house only when he was convinced no one is home. That said, anyone can make a mistake. The home owner ought to make it evident that his house is occupied so as to avoid creating the basis for a misunderstanding.
> 
> Generally, houses in Mexico are designed with more attention to security than those in the US. To break into a house in Mexico requires a concerted effort compared to those in the US. A break-in in Mexico is somewhat less likely to be an accident (someone having had a few too many entering into the wrong house.)
> 
> The homeowner confronted by an intruder needs to sort-out quickly whether the intruder is:
> - someone entitled to be there (another occupant, visitor, kid home from college un-announced, neighbor looking into some apparent problem - smoke from your house - police executing a warrant, army, something else that doesn't occur to me)
> - a burglar who isn't interested in harming anyone
> - a home invader who plans to terrorize the occupants for pleasure or profit.
> 
> By all means, you need to rule-out the 1'st possibility.
> 
> It's going to be hard to distinguish the 2'nd from the 3'rd possibility. May God help anyone having to make this decision.
> 
> While the probability of a burglar not inclined to harm anyone is higher than the home invader with that goal intended, I'm wary of low-probability/high-consequenes. I'm prepared to presume that the percentage of psychopaths in Mexico is lower than that prevailing in my home country; I'm also prepared to expect that Mexcio's psychopaths have cultivated their proclivities to a finer art than my countrymen-psycopaths.
> 
> After you rule-out the possibility that the intruder is someone who belongs in your home, you are facing a question of whether the intruder warrants the benefit of the doubt. If you have children in the house or a wife in the house then you have to weigh that question from the perspective of a fiduciary. You had the means to resist; you chose to give the benefit of the doubt. There may be consequences incurred by others who were entitled to rely upon your means and judgement. If you are home alone, then it's entirely your call.
> 
> In light of the above considerations, I have great difficulty understanding the point that a dead Mexican's family will resort to vengeance. That may be so; to simplify the discussion, I will concede that reasonable assumption. I fail to see how that alters my judgement as to what to do if I fear for the lives of those in my house. Let's see, I would rather take my chances with a probable simple burglar rather than take my chances escaping the wrath of his otherwise law-abiding family members? Take a risk of swift death in order to reduce the risk of deferred death? After I kill an intruder in Mexico I can't leave the place where his family members live? I can't reconsider my decision to live in Mexico and take up the alternatives of returning to the US or to some other country?
> 
> I acknowledge and submit to the jurisdiction of the Mexican courts. If I didn't do so, then I'd stay where I do respect the jurisdiction of the judicial system. Mexicans want to live in safety as much as anyone anywhere else in the world. If you did - in fact - act in self-defense then the evidence to that effect is apt to be persuasive and I would expect justice will be done. If you acted rashly and killed a guest or employee without ruling out the possibility of a mistaken identity, then you deserve to be punished.
> 
> I didn't know what actual/hypothetical indecent you had in mind. I take it that the crime was in a "street" venue.
> 
> I don't feel qualified to speak to that situation beyond the following remark. If the perpetrator wants to move you from where to are to any other place then your first instinct ought to be to resist. Your position won't get better when he moves you to the place he wants you to be.
> 
> The reader's first response is apt to be: Well, what if he just wants to take you to his favorite ATM? My answer to that is to avoid carrying credit cards whenever feasible. Carry enough cash to satisfy the perpetrator. Give him your wallet and tell him you carry cash, not cards. Volunteer to strip if necessary to prove you have no cards. Now, then, having removed the pretext of visiting the ATM, you can assess his real motive. If he still wants to move you, the implication is not good. I think you are better off running even at the risk of being shot in the back. Few perpetrators will be marksmen with handguns. The farther away you are from him the less likely he is to hit you in a vital area.
> What a kidnapper will do with you at leisure is a far greater risk then a fatal gunshot wound.
> 
> It's simply imprudent to defend your groceries, wallet, car from someone whose only obvious intention is to steal the property you are in possession of at the moment.
> 
> A possibility is a bullet-resistant jacket. These are not unreasonably priced and seem reasonable for casual ware. What you will want to use won't stop an illegal calibre handgun round; and, there is no reason to presume that your perpetrator illegally possesses a legal-calibre handgun. However, he might have a legal-calibre handgun and the jacket you are willing to ware may reduce the damage caused by such a round; thereby possibly making the difference between a fatal vs. non-fatal wound.
> 
> I suppose that the incident you refer to illustrates that even a reasonably safe area is not entirely safe. Nor are relatively safe areas in the US entirely safe. So, we all take our chances.
> 
> The empirical evidence of the US experience with increasing numbers of States with Shall-Issue permit laws strongly supports concealed carry as a deterrent. It doesn't solve crime completely, but, it reduces it by far more than opponents are willing to admit.
> 
> I'm afraid that Mexico and many "Blue" US States will stick to the position that only:
> - government officials (police, military);
> - the elite (politicians, wealthy, famous, and their friends); and,
> - criminals in the ordinary practice of their chosen profession
> may have the means of self-defense. The universally-acknowledged natural right of self-defense is not an entitlement authorized by the State.
> Sad as it is to acknowledge this, the US is one of a relatively few jurisdictions with a relatively healthy respect to that natural right.
> 
> I hope that I've addressed your questions.
> Mark


You are assuming, dangerously, I believe, that firearms are the "only" means of self-defense. Of course, as has been stated many, many times, both in this thread and others, the best means of defense against theft is MX style security, appearing to be at home, and good relations with your neighbors.

Styling oneself as a one man covert operation hardly seems to add to any of those options, and seems to eliminate the possibility of the last.

Seriously? Who in their right mind would decide to hang out in their own home in a bullet proof vest? That doesn't go well with my nightgown, frankly.

Nor with chinos and a sleeveless top.

While I am sure that there are expats who currently live in MX who believe in the American style of "home defense", I am gratified to read so many others, here, who are wiser than that.

There is murder in every city in every country in the world. Those countries where firearms are the easiest to obtain legally are those with the highest rates. As it has been for decades, in the UK, most police officers don't carry firearms. A quote from the Wikipedia entry on UK law enforcement: "Uniforms, the issuing of firearms, type of patrol cars and other equipment varies by force. Unlike police in other developed countries, the vast majority of British police officers do not carry firearms on standard patrol; they do however carry Extendable "Asp" or fixed Monadnock PR-24 batons and CS/PAVA spray."

In 2009, the number of murders by firearms in the UK was 39. In the US, 9,146. Taking into consideration the fact that the UK has 1/5 the population of the US, to equal the same murder/capita, there would have needed to have been 1,829 firearms murders in the UK in that year.

I understand that there are drug wars in parts of MX. But, unless you plan to become involved in them, the chances of you being caught in the middle are extremely small, much smaller than your chances for a "home invasion" in the US.

Do we really want to import US style "self-defense" to our neighboring country, which is gracious enough to allow us to move there with few impediments?

Please, no.


----------



## AlanMexicali

mickisue1 said:


> You are assuming, dangerously, I believe, that firearms are the "only" means of self-defense. Of course, as has been stated many, many times, both in this thread and others, the best means of defense against theft is MX style security, appearing to be at home, and good relations with your neighbors.
> 
> Styling oneself as a one man covert operation hardly seems to add to any of those options, and seems to eliminate the possibility of the last.
> 
> Seriously? Who in their right mind would decide to hang out in their own home in a bullet proof vest? That doesn't go well with my nightgown, frankly.
> 
> Nor with chinos and a sleeveless top.
> 
> While I am sure that there are expats who currently live in MX who believe in the American style of "home defense", I am gratified to read so many others, here, who are wiser than that.
> 
> There is murder in every city in every country in the world. Those countries where firearms are the easiest to obtain legally are those with the highest rates. As it has been for decades, in the UK, most police officers don't carry firearms. A quote from the Wikipedia entry on UK law enforcement: "Uniforms, the issuing of firearms, type of patrol cars and other equipment varies by force. Unlike police in other developed countries, the vast majority of British police officers do not carry firearms on standard patrol; they do however carry Extendable "Asp" or fixed Monadnock PR-24 batons and CS/PAVA spray."
> 
> In 2009, the number of murders by firearms in the UK was 39. In the US, 9,146. Taking into consideration the fact that the UK has 1/5 the population of the US, to equal the same murder/capita, there would have needed to have been 1,829 firearms murders in the UK in that year.
> 
> I understand that there are drug wars in parts of MX. But, unless you plan to become involved in them, the chances of you being caught in the middle are extremely small, much smaller than your chances for a "home invasion" in the US.
> 
> Do we really want to import US style "self-defense" to our neighboring country, which is gracious enough to allow us to move there with few impediments?
> 
> Please, no.


I agree with your synopsis of the situation. I would imagine even though burglars can possibly get a gun they would most likely not want to be captured doing a B&E with one. This might add so much more time to a sentence, which here is not as long as most countries, that I would suspect they would opt to carry a knife instead if they were the violent type. Commonly stabbings were very common in Mexico decades ago before Calderon declared war on drugs in the statistics here.

In Mexicali I asked someone once, a local born in Mexicali, why so many people wear cowboy boots when it is over 100 in the shade? He replied: It is the men from Sinaloa usually because that is where they keep their knives. He added: Mexicali was such a tranquil and family oriented city before NAFTA and we do think these newer citizens are now pistoleros and do not like it one bit.


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## pappabee

Folks,
This thread has become so much “he said/she said” that it’s starting to become tiresome. Mark 1 has stated some facts and some opinions, the problem is it’s become very hard to figure out which is which.

Let’s cut all the bull and get down to reality. 

1-The Mexican Government does not want residents to have guns. 

2-That’s a fact. 

3-They have made it almost impossible for Expats to legally own or carry guns. 

4-That’s a fact.

5-There are many different options for protection not using guns.

6-That’s a fact.

7 through 5280+-What right do we have as non-citizens guest residents here to try to circumvent number 1?

5281-If we don’t like the fact or feel that unsafe the N=MOVE. 

5282-That’s enough fact.


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## polamexpat

mickisue1 said:


> ...
> 
> In 2009, the number of murders by firearms in the UK was 39. In the US, 9,146. Taking into consideration the fact that the UK has 1/5 the population of the US, to equal the same murder/capita, there would have needed to have been 1,829 firearms murders in the UK in that year.
> 
> ...
> 
> Please, no.


Why don't you take Switzerland to compare your statistics? They are allowed to keep military assault rifles at home. How high is the murder rate in Switzerland in comparison with the U.S.? Or the other way around, why not compare U.S. to communist ANC run South Africa where they heavily restricted firearms possession? Also, can you quote the total murders in U.K. and U.S. and compare them? Obviously, since it is harder to get firearms in the U.K., murderers will use different type of weapons to commit their crimes.


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## AlanMexicali

pappabee said:


> Folks,
> This thread has become so much “he said/she said” that it’s starting to become tiresome. Mark 1 has stated some facts and some opinions, the problem is it’s become very hard to figure out which is which.
> 
> Let’s cut all the bull and get down to reality.
> 
> 1-The Mexican Government does not want residents to have guns.
> 
> 2-That’s a fact.
> 
> 3-They have made it almost impossible for Expats to legally own or carry guns.
> 
> 4-That’s a fact.
> 
> 5-There are many different options for protection not using guns.
> 
> 6-That’s a fact.
> 
> 7 through 5280+-What right do we have as non-citizens guest residents here to try to circumvent number 1?
> 
> 5281-If we don’t like the fact or feel that unsafe the N=MOVE.
> 
> 5282-That’s enough fact.


I see you have decided everything is up to the individual who has to weigh the facts according to their experiences NOB and as a long time member of Mexican society this discussion is a mute point among locals. Prevention and awareness is the norm. Guns are a NO NO here.

A central alarm system scares burglars off. The alarm is tied to the security company that passes by the houses regularly. There is a panic button on the alarm panel when it is not set. It costs $1000.00 US to install and $1800.00 pesos for the 6 month contract and includes any alarm you might have before signing a new companies contract and free repair service, only the large gel cell battery will cost you to replace. You need to keep a telephone land line on.

If someone gets involved in a shooting the medical bills will be paid to the victim by the offender usually regardless of who did what to whom. The family also can get compensation in the event of a death. If you have an illegal firearm you will not be the victim but the offender, I would suspect. 

Having a victim mentality does not make your life in Mexico as joyful as it can be when realizing you now live in a system that has little or nothing to do with living NOB. The guilty until proven innocent is a reversal of what some people have a hard time realizing and makes for some acute readjustment to "What justice is all about in Mexico." 

Limited liability in Mexico makes for another readjustment many raised NOB cannot understand and best be rationalized as a benefit for citizens to live free of these high costs of living here and understanding that lawyers and civil lawsuits are not going to protect the victim. Leaving the NOB victim mentality for when you are in the US or Canada is the way to get peace of mind. IMO


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## FHBOY

I am tending to agree with Pappabee - the debate on this topic has become a general debate on handguns and such and though, interesting as it is, we are not breaking any new ground on this debate completely relevant solely to the expat experience in Mexico.. Too much of it is generalized and conjecture (including some of my posts) and ignores the basic tenet Pappabee repeats: The Mexican government does not want people to have/use guns and especially expats.

The comments have been enjoyable and the debate lively and courteous. We are not going to change anyone's mind, so in the end, we will decide for ourselves what to do. A good suggestion has been the heightening of perimeter defenses and developing relationships with neighbors.


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## Mark1

pappabee said:


> Folks,
> ...
> Let’s cut all the bull and get down to reality.
> 
> 1-The Mexican Government does not want residents to have guns.
> 
> 2-That’s a fact.
> 
> 3-They have made it almost impossible for Expats to legally own or carry guns.
> 
> 4-That’s a fact.
> 
> 5-There are many different options for protection not using guns.
> 
> 6-That’s a fact.
> 
> 7 through 5280+-What right do we have as non-citizens guest residents here to try to circumvent number 1?
> 
> 5281-If we don’t like the fact or feel that unsafe the N=MOVE.
> 
> 5282-That’s enough fact.


I respectfully point out that #7 is not a fact; and, the poster did not characterize it as such. I appreciate that.

I acknowledge that #1 is probably true. I don't have to agree with what a government wants in order to live in that country. I do not agree with what my government wants; so, I choose to leave. My options on where to live would be very restricted if I had to confine my search for a new home to a place where I agreed with everything that the government wants. Moreover, the government of such a country might change what it wants and then I might be obliged - under this line of reasoning - to move once again.

I am prepared to pay due respect to the laws of any place i visit or live. Mexico's laws are deserving of that respect.

I am also prepared to remember that I am - and will always be to some extent - a guest in another country. As such, I don't propose to take an in-your-face attitude concerning my opinions vs. those of my hosts.

Speaking of whom, my wife is my host; and, my primary host at that. As a citizen, she is entitled to all the rights of citizenship and to espouse her opinion just as any other citizen. (Whether I qualify or succeed in purchasing a firearm in the Army store as an immigrant is a distinct question the outcome of which remains to be seen.)

No one has yet to speak of the right of a Mexican citizen, under her constitution, to have a firearm in her home for purposes of self defense. Has she this right? Or, did she lose that right when she married an alien? Perhaps she loses that right when her alien husband enters her home. Is there a rationale to support this loss?

At no point in my discussion did I disparage Mexico in general as a place to live safely. I'm convinced that there are safe-enough places to live. I'm not particularly worried in my home. I regard the prospects of a break-in extremely remote. 

At no point have I advocated that anyone acquire a firearm who is not inclined to own, keep and handle it responsibly as well as legally. We, as guests, should be especially careful to obey the law.

I have advocated every other precaution that I am aware of and can think of. 

My respect for the opinions of others extends to those Mexican citizens who - in accordance with their centuries of tradition - have kept firearms and done so carefully. 

I also appreciate the advice given to me by relatives and friends - Mexican citizens - to take precautions. Sometimes I think that they take precautions excessively; but, they know the territory. 

I don't discount anyone's concern for their own safety, to say nothing of their concern for the safety of their families. I encourage others to show sympathy for a legitimate concern which is difficult to quantify.

Mark


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## AlanMexicali

FHBOY said:


> I am tending to agree with Pappabee - the debate on this topic has become a general debate on handguns and such and though, interesting as it is, we are not breaking any new ground on this debate completely relevant solely to the expat experience in Mexico.. Too much of it is generalized and conjecture (including some of my posts) and ignores the basic tenet Pappabee repeats: The Mexican government does not want people to have/use guns and especially expats.
> 
> The comments have been enjoyable and the debate lively and courteous. We are not going to change anyone's mind, so in the end, we will decide for ourselves what to do. A good suggestion has been the heightening of perimeter defenses and developing relationships with neighbors.


I have added to the frey with some things not considered in my above post that are more of an add on to "youse guyes' " moral/ legal [simplistic] stance.


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## AlanMexicali

"My respect for the opinions of others extends to those Mexican citizens who - in accordance with their centuries of tradition - have kept firearms and done so carefully. "

This statement is so far off base outside certain states that are the cowboy states here in Mexico that MOST people now live in industrialized states and cities so it is a non valid argument and simply a smoke screen. Only violent criminals have guns in these places and always did or knives. The citizens do not and never did. Peons in every state never have/had guns but machetes. Ranchers had guns and still do.


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## Mark1

mickisue1 said:


> You are assuming, dangerously, I believe, that firearms are the "only" means of self-defense. Of course, as has been stated many, many times, both in this thread and others, the best means of defense against theft is MX style security, appearing to be at home, and good relations with your neighbors.
> 
> Styling oneself as a one man covert operation hardly seems to add to any of those options, and seems to eliminate the possibility of the last.
> 
> Do we really want to import US style "self-defense" to our neighboring country, which is gracious enough to allow us to move there with few impediments
> .


 I take exception to your assertion that I assume that firearms are the "only" means of self-defense. I have written repeatedly of "MX style security" and more importantly, avoiding situations where one may be at greater risk.

Is "Styling oneself as a one man covert operation..." directed at me based on my remarks? If so, I also take exception. I can't imagine anything I have written would lead to such a characterization.

I have no quarrel with any Mexican (save one, who is quarrelsome by nature herself) (maybe the kids too, come to think of it.) My experiences with Mexicans have been overwhelmingly pleasant; and, I have no plans to alter that. 

I certainly wouldn't criticize my neighbors or relatives for any lawful measures they take to protect themselves and their families. Mexicans have their native style of self defense and I don't imagine my opinion will have any influence; therefore, I don't plan on mounting any campaign along these or any other line. If someone asks me for my opinion - and a forum posting I take to be such an invitation - I will offer it as respectfully as I can.

I intend only to import my household goods and myself to Mexico. I don't plan to import any firearm. 

I take notice of a country's fundamental law as an element of its "style". I simply accept it as it is; I make no pretense of promoting a constitutional amendment to introduce a new right to "bear". 

Mark


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## Guest

Having been married to a foreign national and living in their country, (more dangerous than where I now live here in MX) I will offer some advice that might ruffle some feathers: 

To the OP, Mark1 and any other member here as a foreigner married to a MX national, a bigger risk to your family's overall safety is your spouse (or maybe the kids) and their big mouth. It all seems harmless but can lead to bad things. 

When returning to MX, they get to see many of their old friends/family. People talk. Some seek to establish or elevate their social standing in their new circle of friends talking about their previous lives in the US, Canada, or wherever else that was probably very different and more prosperous than their new home in MX. Others just think they are telling it like it was, not thinking or realizing that what they experienced was either not possible or doable for the people they're telling it to. In all likelihood, they have had, bought or done things that many people here have or could not.

It's very possible to create a spark of jealousy doing this. Women blab in the salon. Men blab over beers. Kids try to outdo each other with their stories. Gossip spreads, and the tales grow taller about what you must have or had, and the fantastic amounts of wealth that must be present in your home. Eventually the news may reach the ears of someone who thinks they can get a piece of your pie for themselves, and suddenly you have a problem.

Part of the transition to MX is to talk with your family about not talking about your family.  Be safe, and teach your family to be safe too.



-


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## Isla Verde

GringoCArlos, I love this: 

I'm awfully glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard. 

Me too! Should we have t-shirts made?

Your fan, Isla Verde


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## Guest

Isla Verde said:


> GringoCArlos, I love this:
> 
> I'm awfully glad I'm a Beta, because I don't work so hard.
> 
> Me too! Should we have t-shirts made?
> 
> Your fan, Isla Verde


Isn't my photo of La Lavadora better than the garden gnome too?


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## Isla Verde

GringoCArlos said:


> Isn't my photo of La Lavadora better than the garden gnome too?


I didn't realize that it was a _lavadora_. It's an interesting image, but I've always been fond of magical creatures. I don't know which one I prefer.


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## ZihuaRob

polamexpat said:


> So what are the options for an expat in Mexico to defend himself/herself during a home invasion by an intruder? Taser? Pepper spray? Kitchen knife? Or using these in self-defense will get you arrested as well?


I've personally caught 2 would-be robbers and helped trap a 3rd. I used my machete the first 2 times. The third time I used the local taxis to call folks down the road to stop the knife-wielding thief who was running away with a tourist lady's backpack. Cornered him near the market.

I am a nationalized citizen so I am allowed to have a firearm in my home, but I have never had any need for a firearm in the 23 years I've lived here, not counting celebratory gunfire. 

Home invasions are extremely rare here. The few I have heard of that involved foreigners happened because they built luxurious homes or condos as if they were in Mayberry USA with big windows and sliding glass doors that just scream "ROB ME!" A home has to be built like a fortress here and security needs to be taken seriously.


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## trpt2345

GringoCArlos said:


> When in Rome, do as the Romans:
> 
> - if you need a security blanket to feel safe inside your well-protected home, a well sharpened machete is much better than some old wooden curtain rod - it can also be used in your garden/lawn.
> 
> -


Machetes are good.


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## Mark1

trpt2345 said:


> Machetes are good.


I hesitate to comment - as follows - in response to the last couple of posts for fear that my remarks might carry the thread too far afield from it's original tenor.

I take the OP's inquiry to be: Whether an immigrant and his native wife may lawfully keep or bear arms in Mexico. Other posters introduced questions as to the morality of the use of such arms; and, whether an immigrant (irrespective of his native spouse) ought to risk offending his hosts.

Comments as to alternatives to arms have now led to consideration alternative types of arms. Because there are readers of this forum who might have given limited thought to such topics, I fear these alternative suggestions might lead to incorrect impressions. With the hope that readers will forgive my comments, I offer the following.

Yes, a machete is very good for cutting vegetation. In Puerto Rico, I'm told, when a machete has been sharpened so many times that it is no longer serviceable, it's ground down to the size of a large carving knife and used in the kitchen.

That truth acknowledged; there is another truth: Don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

One must use what one has available when the occasion arises. A machete is a tool and a legal weapon. And so, it is one of the options that one may lawfully carry.

I recall a poster in a different thread (probably a different forum) who kept a diver's speargun in his home. He once had occasion to brandish the speargun and it served the purpose.

Whatever the weapon, it's still a weapon. It is more or less lethal. In fact, I can say with confidence that a diver's speargun is more lethal than a .22 pistol. 

If and when the occasion arises, one will either brandish (that is to say, threaten) or apply such a weapon (or not). If used, one will either do so effectively or ineffectively. 

I'm not much for pitting myself with a machete against a bigger man with a gun. A smaller man, or woman, has even less of a chance of prevailing against anyone with a gun. A speargun, perhaps; but, it is inherently a one-shot weapon.

With the greatest respect and appreciation to all those who offer novel ideas, it remains that - in the end - a firearm is the only convenient, economical and effective device now available to most people as the final line of defense. 

To what ever extent something else might be sufficient - speargun or machete - it is still a lethal weapon. 

Let's keep our eyes on the right ball. It is the lethality of the weapon which is - at once - the practical as well as the moral question. There are those who will not - or can not even if they might will - to use a weapon of any sort. I imagine that the sentiments of these will be to avoid any weapon which is apt to inflict any permanent injury. A speargun or machete is such a weapon. Consequently, they don't mitigate the moral issue to any great extent.

The preponderance of opinion as to the most effective weapon for home defense is the shotgun. Ironically, ammunition manufacturers offer a variety of less-than-lethal ammunition types for the shotgun. Among these are: rubber balls; bean bags; bird-shot; buck-shot. 

Some people advocate that the first round in a shotgun should be a less-than-lethal type; followed by multiple additional rounds of a lethal type. 

Is it more or less moral to wield a legal machete or speargun vs. a firearm with the first round a less-than-lethal ammunition type? Will one with some reticence to inflict permeant injury be more or less inclined to apply a legal machete or speargun vs. (in-the-home legal) a firearm with a LtL first round? 

Outside the home we face - in Mexico - the legal prohibition; a topic which I refrain from debating. There, any alternative tool which might serve as a defensive weapon is a reasonable suggestion. Nevertheless, in the hands of a typical immigrant, I doubt it is sufficiently better-than-nothing to bother with.

On another sub-topic, closer to earlier comments; i.e., the sensibility of our Mexican hosts. Yesterday I had the opportunity to inquire of a couple of young men, capasinos from Oaxaca. I asked how many homes in their area kept firearms: All, I was told. I asked: 100.0%; no, probably about 95%. 

I asked about the prevailing attitude concerning the risk of home invasion. They couldn't imagine the possibility in their area. Possibly in a large city, but certainly not in the campo or in their village. Why, then, do people keep arms? It's a luxury; your neighbor has a gun so you want one too. 

I asked if people carry their guns. Usually, in the campo. There are rattlesnakes in the area. Occasionally, a few carry - concealed - in the local village, but never in a large city. The local police know some people are carrying but they don't care because they know everyone in town. 

A significant exception to the occasional carry in the village is 16 de Septiembre when everyone openly carries to the celebration in the village. On that occasion the village Presidente calls for the celebratory "bala".

Some readers will object to my cultural insensitivity; nevertheless, I criticized the practice of firing into the air. One camasino responded that the guns are aimed at a 45 degree angle such that the bullets fall outside of town, in the campo. Even so, I firmly criticized the practice because it represents a low-probability/high-consequence risk of injury.

I asked where the arms come from. Generally, from a stranger who offers used guns for sale. Prices range from 10,000 - 15,000 pesos. Legal calibers at the higher prices, illegal calibers at the lower prices. A machine gun for 30,000 pesos. 

I asked if buyers weren't concerned that the stranger offering illegal arms for sale might be a policeman. They responded that there was no reason for concern; if anyone had such a concern he should buy his gun from the town cop. For example, one said his father wanted a nicer gun. The town cop provided an acceptable model and took his father's old gun in trade. 

Bear in mind that these young fellow were simple capasinos who tended to their families crops and livestock for a living. The village was entirely peaceful and there was hardly any crime to speak of. They are certainly not involved in narco-trafficing.

I asked - as a supposition - about someone approaching a typical resident of their area and commenting that the resident's gun was illegal and that the Mexican government disapproved. What did they imagine the residents reaction might be? The response was a blush, chuckle, and a vague - yet clear - allusion to a common Mexicanismo which need not be repeated in this forum.

I asked if they thought that anyone they know would be offense if an immigrant kept a gun in his home. They responded that they couldn't imagine anyone taking offense.

I hasten to acknowledge that my sample size is quite small; and, one village in Oaxaca is not necessarily representative of the whole of Mexico. With so many readers of this forum widely distributed throughout the country, perhaps similar inquiries could yield a more diverse response. 

In any case, I recall mention of the 16 de Sept "bala" from a schoolmate from Jalisco and from my niece in Puebla. While I explicitly condemn the traditional 16 de Sept bala into the air, I wonder how participants are able to observe this tradition without "keeping" these firearms peaceably in their homes the other 364 days of the year.

Mark


----------



## pappabee

Mark 1,
Your posts have left me in a quandary. You seem to type very long and very complex postings and they are filled with a combination of quotes, opinions and statements of from third parties. The problem with this is that you purport the opinions and the statements from third parties as being facts. 

When I read your posts it is very difficult to determine which are your opinions, which are statements from third parties and which are quotes that you are trying to make without stating the quoted source. In your last post you took a very small sampling of people and made it seem like this was the norm throughout the area. 

You then took away that by saying this may not be the same in all areas. Very confusing. The other thing is that you said that one of your contacts said you could buy guns from the local policeman so why bother purchasing from someone else. The problem is that you had this as a quote from a third source you didn't supply any more information about that third source nor did you give us any reason why we should assume that that third source is accurate. But you want us to believe that it is accurate.

It is extremely difficult partially because of the length of your posts and partially because of the way you write your posts to differentiate between fact and opinion and what makes up a third-party quote. 

In the future I strongly suggest that when you post something you be very very careful to let the reader know what is fact and what is opinion and what is a quote from a third-party. A large amount of what you have to say is very interesting and possibly truthful. The problem I am having to weed through the entire post to find the parts that are opinion and judge them in light of the third-party quotes and undocumented facts.


----------



## Mark1

pappabee said:


> Mark 1,
> ... You seem to type very long and very complex postings ... The problem with this is that you purport the opinions and the statements from third parties as being facts.
> 
> .... very difficult to determine which are your opinions, which are statements from third parties and which are quotes that you are trying to make without stating the quoted source. ... you took a very small sampling of people and made it seem like this was the norm throughout the area.
> 
> You then took away that by saying this may not be the same in all areas. Very confusing. The other thing is that you said that one of your contacts said you could buy guns from the local policeman so why bother purchasing from someone else. The problem is that you had this as a quote from a third source you didn't supply any more information about that third source nor did you give us any reason why we should assume that that third source is accurate. But you want us to believe that it is accurate.
> 
> .


Papabee, Thank you for your constructive comments. Only one person in the world likes my lengthy writings. 

In my opinion, a reader need not work hard to identify which statements are my opinions. I rarely - if ever - make a verbatim quote; if I did, I'd put it in quotation marks. My references to statements made by others are paraphrases. I make no attempt to put my spin into the paraphrase; I try to render it as accurately as possible. When I'm writing about what I've been told by others I believe I make it clear that someone else told me such and such. 

I don't think I have ever written: "It is a fact that Sr. X said such and such to me." To write in such a way would seem unnecessarily tedious, even for me.

I did not say in any way that the two campasinos I spoke with deserve to be taken as representative of the nation of Mexico. I can't imagine anyone reading what I wrote as even making such an insinuation. I asked them what they took to be the views of the typical people of their patria chica. They answered my questions. I wrote down my paraphrase of what I understood them to say. 

I wasn't so much interested in their individual opinions of the substance of my question. I have a friendly relationship with these guys. I might have asked if they would have any objections to me - as a particular immigrant - having a firearm in my particular house. However, that would have shed little light on the discussion here. Rather, I wanted them to relate what they could about the Mexicans they knew well enough to attempt to represent Mexican opinion and about immigrants in general. Albeit the opinions of just 2 campasinos; or, those of just 2 professional nieces living in a major city - are nothing more than those opinions, I have represented them as nothing other than what they are. 

I see remarks by others characterized as the sentiments of Mexicans in general; these pass without comment as to their veracity or manner of exposition.

My ending remark about them not being a representative sample of the entire nation ought to go without saying. Even so, I tried to convey my sentiment that I didn't regard their remarks as dispositive and that it would be useful to gather views from other states so that one might have a better understanding of the diversity of opinion on the matter. 

I take at least as much care as anyone else in this forum to address the topic with evenhandedness and clarity. I am sorry if you conclude that I have fallen short of the efforts of others along these lines.

The only third party referred to was the father of one of these two young men. That was clear. I related what the young man told me; and, I only said that that is what he told me. He didn't say he witnessed his father's transaction with the policeman; nor did I know this one way or the other. He only mentioned the transaction his father had in order to illustrate his explanation that the local cop was a good source of supply and dealing with him would remove the uncertainty of not knowing whether a stranger might be a policeman.

Readers of this forum may doubt that I am reporting accurately what I have been told by my nieces, friends, the campasinos. That is their right. Ultimately, I believe one's words should speak for themselves. They ring-true in the listener's mind; or, they do not. They are subject to independent verification; or not. They can be tested by additional observations by others; or, they are not so substantiated.

I have made statements about the Mexican constitution. Go read it for yourself. Ask a Mexican lawyer to explain the law to you. I have made statements about the "bala" celebrating 16 de Sept. Anyone can readily inquire of any Mexican whether my description is accurate or not. If you find me to be in error, then point out that error. I will be grateful.

Regards,
Mark


----------



## trpt2345

Mark1 said:


> Papabee,
> 
> I did not say in any way that the two campasinos I spoke with deserve to be taken as representative of the nation of Mexico. I can't imagine anyone reading what I wrote as even making such an insinuation. I asked them what they took to be the views of the typical people of their patria chica.
> 
> Regards,
> Mark


My 80 year old plus suegra keeps a pistol in her house, and has ever since I've known her (30+ years). I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'. She also keeps somewhere between three and six dogs at any given time, and nothing untoward has ever happened.


----------



## Mark1

"... too many hypotheticals, ... how many of them contributors to this Forum have heard about or, God forbid, experienced. To be sure we can make situations that justify the use of lethal force, but isn't the question,
...
• How often does it happen? 
• Where are the incidents apparently happening more frequently? 
• Who is involved? 
• What actually happened and then what were the consequences?

... heightened perimeter security seems to negate the need for a firearm more in Mexico than in the USA."

- Rarely
- don't know; any information might be helpful
- apart from narco-trafikers, don't know; any information would be helpful
- What happens in the home-invasion incidents is unsuitable for discussion in a forum such as this. Those incidents which occur in the US are reasonably well covered and the evidence eventually described in the press at an adequate level of detail. The narco incidents in Mexico are well covered and somewhat more graphically described. However, I don't know about home invasions that are not conspicuously connected with narcos. I have some doubts that these latter incidents are publicized in Mexico.

No one has questioned that MX style perimeter security is the first and most important line of defense. Simple burglary (no one at home) is a high-probability/low-consequence risk that calls for perimeter security. Every newcomer to Mexico deserves to be alerted to the importance of this consideration. The cost is justified by the risk mitigation.

That said, I imagine that it will be difficult to find a security expert who will prescribe a cost-effective impregnible perimeter security scheme. Accordingly, there remains a risk - probably negligible - of a home invasion - that is, an incident where the intruder intends to inflict harm on the occupants. How often does it happen? I have every expectation that it is a rare event. 

That said, there is an issue that needs to be pointed out forthrightly. The low-probability/high-consequence risk. Most people have no useful exposure to this sort of risk. In my work I have a peripheral awareness of this sort of risk. 

No one enjoys discussing high-consequence events. Yet, they happen. I mentioned the recent Connecticut incident at a doctor's home. The doctor somehow survived but two psychopaths raped and killed his wife and 1 or 2 daughters, burning them alive. I trust this forum will forego a more detailed description; Google it if you need the facts.

I grew up in a rural/small-town where there was no violent crime in the entire history of the area so far as I'm aware. Attention to security was zero. A truly peaceful life. 

A few years ago, in a near-by small city, an intruder lay in wait in an empty home until a young girl returned from school. He raped and killed her. The details were too horrifying for my sister - a resident - to describe. The devastation spread through much of the population of the city. Sad to say, the perpetrator was an illegal immigrant. 

Neither the US nor Mexico nor most other countries of the world are entirely free of psychopaths. 

How does heightened perimeter security negate the risk that a psychopath might attack an occupied home? Negate means zero. Heightened perimeter security can only constitute the first and most cost-effective measure to reduce the risk. Some risk of a low-probability/high-consequence event remains. Mexican homes generally have good perimeter security relative to US homes. Nevertheless, some careful observation of most homes will identify week points where a determined intruder could probably breach.

Neither I nor anyone else on this forum nor anywhere else that I have read has asserted that a firearm completely removes the residual risk. It is merely one alternative 2'nd to last line of defense among other possibilities. 

"Question: if a firearm cannot be carried outside your home in Mexico, will a person have a fear of walking the streets, going to the market, seeing a film and therefore be content to live in "fortress casa" with their firearm due to these fears? Is that living?"

Let's see if I can understand the logic of your question. There are 2 venues:

- inside my home
- outside my home

Inside my home I can have a firearm legally. It is my choice - assuming my wife or I is granted the permit and we purchase a firearm at the Army gun store - to exercise this right/privilege. 

Suppose I do keep a gun, lawfully, in my home. Will that make me feel any differently about my security outside my home? I don't see how.

Conversely, suppose I elect not to keep a gun in my house. Will that make me feel any differently about my security outside my home? Is this the question being asked "... if a firearm cannot be carried outside your home in Mexico, will a person have a fear of walking the streets, going to the market, ..." ? Should I infer that not keeping a gun in the home ought somehow make me feel safer outside my home?

I thank the poster for posing these questions. They have prompted me to think about my feelings of safety or fear throughout my life. 

In 60 years I believe I have lived in a home without a gun about 2 years. At no time did I feel unsafe. At no time did I associate any feeling of safety with the presence of a gun in the home. The feeling and the knowledge of the gun had no connection. There was nothing to be afraid of.

I lived in Mexico for 3 months 43 years ago. I felt unsafe just once when walking home at 11 PM. (I did that a lot in those 3 months). A pack of dogs crossed my path. They ignored me. 

I'm pretty sure my problem is that I feel safe in Mexico. I am not on a heightened state of alertness. That feeling may have been well-founded 43 years ago; but, it's less well founded today. Yet, those feelings of safety are firmly wired into my being from youth; and, they are going to be hard to shake.

The more important question for me is whether I can retrain myself to be conscious of the relative safety of my environment from moment to moment. Not: Do I feel safe? Rather; Am I safe here - now - outside my home?

... "I am not a gun owner, but I assume that those who have guns (not hunting weapons) have a feeling that it makes them more secure. ... But it is when feelings come up against a factual reality, proven factual reality, that one needs to re-evaluate these (and any other) feelings."

What is "factual reality, proven factual reality" in the context under discussion? I suppose that if this were the Switzerland or Japan country forum one could reasonably say that the relevant on-the-ground facts are that there is no risk of assault either on the streets nor in the home. Alas, this is a forum on Mexico. 

There are safe havens in the US, Mexico, ... even Honduras (AKA the murder capital of the world). Yet, none of these havens of relative safety are completely free of risk. I would have said that the area where I grew up was completely free of risk; until, the incident in the city where my sister lived. 

I'm afraid that I can't quite grasp what "factual reality, proven factual reality" means in this context. I do have some understanding of probability. Probability of an occurrence of a risky event is relatively high or low. Strategies exist for risk mitigation. One chooses which strategies to pursue and which to forego. Or, one doesn't think of risk mitigation strategies at all. 

.... "In the end, we will all do whatever we feel we must do. It is obvious that I do not feel the need, either here in the USA or in Mexico to own a firearm for personal defense. Will that someday make me dead? Possibly, but not probably, for I can control the factors I mentioned previously to abrogate risk.

Yes, possibly. Not probably - or so I hope for all of us. By all means, control the factors that meet your preferences and budget. I don't encourage anyone to acquire firearms who is not inclined to do so. 

Many who have participated here grew up outside a "gun culture" and have great difficulty approaching the topic. Perhaps these folks have an image of those inside the "gun culture" that might be described as "gun nuts". That could be a fair characterization for a segment of the gun-owning population.

My personal sense is that the majority of the gun owning population are pretty normal folks. They aren't obsessed with firearms; they are simply a normal part of life. I have lots of machines/tools. I think of my drills and saws much more often then I think of my firearms. That's because I use the drills and saws every few months; I very rarely use my firearms.

My attitudes were formed in my family and community. My father had a reserved attitude toward firearms because a family friend was killed (due to his own mistake) in a hunting accident. My father also saw a man killed in a machine shop accident by a grinding machine. Nevertheless, my father hunted as a youth. He gave my brother and me our .22 rifles at age 13 or so. He allowed me to use the grinding machine in his shop at an even younger age. My father was the village hardware, firearms and ammunition dealer albeit he sold hardly any firearms, lots of tools. He understood perfectly well the risk of firearms and tools; and, took a pragmatic view of both sources of risk. 

My take is that Mexicans are mostly ordinary folks. Many have firearms. Some hunt. Some target shoot. Some just keep arms because that's part of their culture.

Mark


----------



## pappabee

Mark1 said:


> "... too many hypotheticals, ... how many of them contributors to this Forum have heard about or, God forbid, experienced. To be sure we can make situations that justify the use of lethal force, but isn't the question,
> ...
> • How often does it happen?
> • Where are the incidents apparently happening more frequently?
> • Who is involved?
> • What actually happened and then what were the consequences?
> 
> ... heightened perimeter security seems to negate the need for a firearm more in Mexico than in the USA."
> 
> - Rarely
> - don't know; any information might be helpful
> - apart from narco-trafikers, don't know; any information would be helpful
> - What happens in the home-invasion incidents is unsuitable for discussion in a forum such as this. Those incidents which occur in the US are reasonably well covered and the evidence eventually described in the press at an adequate level of detail. The narco incidents in Mexico are well covered and somewhat more graphically described. However, I don't know about home invasions that are not conspicuously connected with narcos. I have some doubts that these latter incidents are publicized in Mexico.
> 
> No one has questioned that MX style perimeter security is the first and most important line of defense. Simple burglary (no one at home) is a high-probability/low-consequence risk that calls for perimeter security. Every newcomer to Mexico deserves to be alerted to the importance of this consideration. The cost is justified by the risk mitigation.
> 
> That said, I imagine that it will be difficult to find a security expert who will prescribe a cost-effective impregnible perimeter security scheme. Accordingly, there remains a risk - probably negligible - of a home invasion - that is, an incident where the intruder intends to inflict harm on the occupants. How often does it happen? I have every expectation that it is a rare event.
> 
> That said, there is an issue that needs to be pointed out forthrightly. The low-probability/high-consequence risk. Most people have no useful exposure to this sort of risk. In my work I have a peripheral awareness of this sort of risk.
> 
> No one enjoys discussing high-consequence events. Yet, they happen. I mentioned the recent Connecticut incident at a doctor's home. The doctor somehow survived but two psychopaths raped and killed his wife and 1 or 2 daughters, burning them alive. I trust this forum will forego a more detailed description; Google it if you need the facts.
> 
> I grew up in a rural/small-town where there was no violent crime in the entire history of the area so far as I'm aware. Attention to security was zero. A truly peaceful life.
> 
> A few years ago, in a near-by small city, an intruder lay in wait in an empty home until a young girl returned from school. He raped and killed her. The details were too horrifying for my sister - a resident - to describe. The devastation spread through much of the population of the city. Sad to say, the perpetrator was an illegal immigrant.
> 
> Neither the US nor Mexico nor most other countries of the world are entirely free of psychopaths.
> 
> How does heightened perimeter security negate the risk that a psychopath might attack an occupied home? Negate means zero. Heightened perimeter security can only constitute the first and most cost-effective measure to reduce the risk. Some risk of a low-probability/high-consequence event remains. Mexican homes generally have good perimeter security relative to US homes. Nevertheless, some careful observation of most homes will identify week points where a determined intruder could probably breach.
> 
> Neither I nor anyone else on this forum nor anywhere else that I have read has asserted that a firearm completely removes the residual risk. It is merely one alternative 2'nd to last line of defense among other possibilities.
> 
> "Question: if a firearm cannot be carried outside your home in Mexico, will a person have a fear of walking the streets, going to the market, seeing a film and therefore be content to live in "fortress casa" with their firearm due to these fears? Is that living?"
> 
> Let's see if I can understand the logic of your question. There are 2 venues:
> 
> - inside my home
> - outside my home
> 
> Inside my home I can have a firearm legally. It is my choice - assuming my wife or I is granted the permit and we purchase a firearm at the Army gun store - to exercise this right/privilege.
> 
> Suppose I do keep a gun, lawfully, in my home. Will that make me feel any differently about my security outside my home? I don't see how.
> 
> Conversely, suppose I elect not to keep a gun in my house. Will that make me feel any differently about my security outside my home? Is this the question being asked "... if a firearm cannot be carried outside your home in Mexico, will a person have a fear of walking the streets, going to the market, ..." ? Should I infer that not keeping a gun in the home ought somehow make me feel safer outside my home?
> 
> I thank the poster for posing these questions. They have prompted me to think about my feelings of safety or fear throughout my life.
> 
> In 60 years I believe I have lived in a home without a gun about 2 years. At no time did I feel unsafe. At no time did I associate any feeling of safety with the presence of a gun in the home. The feeling and the knowledge of the gun had no connection. There was nothing to be afraid of.
> 
> I lived in Mexico for 3 months 43 years ago. I felt unsafe just once when walking home at 11 PM. (I did that a lot in those 3 months). A pack of dogs crossed my path. They ignored me.
> 
> I'm pretty sure my problem is that I feel safe in Mexico. I am not on a heightened state of alertness. That feeling may have been well-founded 43 years ago; but, it's less well founded today. Yet, those feelings of safety are firmly wired into my being from youth; and, they are going to be hard to shake.
> 
> The more important question for me is whether I can retrain myself to be conscious of the relative safety of my environment from moment to moment. Not: Do I feel safe? Rather; Am I safe here - now - outside my home?
> 
> ... "I am not a gun owner, but I assume that those who have guns (not hunting weapons) have a feeling that it makes them more secure. ... But it is when feelings come up against a factual reality, proven factual reality, that one needs to re-evaluate these (and any other) feelings."
> 
> What is "factual reality, proven factual reality" in the context under discussion? I suppose that if this were the Switzerland or Japan country forum one could reasonably say that the relevant on-the-ground facts are that there is no risk of assault either on the streets nor in the home. Alas, this is a forum on Mexico.
> 
> There are safe havens in the US, Mexico, ... even Honduras (AKA the murder capital of the world). Yet, none of these havens of relative safety are completely free of risk. I would have said that the area where I grew up was completely free of risk; until, the incident in the city where my sister lived.
> 
> I'm afraid that I can't quite grasp what "factual reality, proven factual reality" means in this context. I do have some understanding of probability. Probability of an occurrence of a risky event is relatively high or low. Strategies exist for risk mitigation. One chooses which strategies to pursue and which to forego. Or, one doesn't think of risk mitigation strategies at all.
> 
> .... "In the end, we will all do whatever we feel we must do. It is obvious that I do not feel the need, either here in the USA or in Mexico to own a firearm for personal defense. Will that someday make me dead? Possibly, but not probably, for I can control the factors I mentioned previously to abrogate risk.
> 
> Yes, possibly. Not probably - or so I hope for all of us. By all means, control the factors that meet your preferences and budget. I don't encourage anyone to acquire firearms who is not inclined to do so.
> 
> Many who have participated here grew up outside a "gun culture" and have great difficulty approaching the topic. Perhaps these folks have an image of those inside the "gun culture" that might be described as "gun nuts". That could be a fair characterization for a segment of the gun-owning population.
> 
> My personal sense is that the majority of the gun owning population are pretty normal folks. They aren't obsessed with firearms; they are simply a normal part of life. I have lots of machines/tools. I think of my drills and saws much more often then I think of my firearms. That's because I use the drills and saws every few months; I very rarely use my firearms.
> 
> My attitudes were formed in my family and community. My father had a reserved attitude toward firearms because a family friend was killed (due to his own mistake) in a hunting accident. My father also saw a man killed in a machine shop accident by a grinding machine. Nevertheless, my father hunted as a youth. He gave my brother and me our .22 rifles at age 13 or so. He allowed me to use the grinding machine in his shop at an even younger age. My father was the village hardware, firearms and ammunition dealer albeit he sold hardly any firearms, lots of tools. He understood perfectly well the risk of firearms and tools; and, took a pragmatic view of both sources of risk.
> 
> My take is that Mexicans are mostly ordinary folks. Many have firearms. Some hunt. Some target shoot. Some just keep arms because that's part of their culture.
> 
> Mark


I had a college logic professor who once said that if you can't convince them with facts you might want to dazzle them with footwork. I feel this is what you're doing. And the most interesting part of it is you may not know that you're doing it.


----------



## mickisue1

The issue, for me, with "footwork" like Mark's is that it comes from such an entirely different worldview from mine that I have difficulty even beginning to follow the first few steps, much less, the tapping and twirling.

I can't fathom a world where I would believe that having a firearm made me safer anywhere. A world where I limited my experiences based on a desire to drive as close to zero as possible the likelihood that anything "bad" would happen to me.

I have lived for 61 years, and most of them have been without firearms in my home. My husband has two hunting guns, a rifle and a shotgun. They are stored unloaded, with the ammunition in another location. 

I have traveled, alone, as a middle-aged woman, all over this country, and through a lot of Italy, alone or with my daughter. 

Terrible things can happen. People can be psychopaths, and can cause harm for the pleasure of it. But the idea that I should live my life looking over my shoulder for psychopaths, rather than taking reasonable precautions, and knowing that I can live more fully by embracing life and its uncertainties, is anathema to me.

I absolutely believe that we all have something in common. A need to feel safe is one of them. But the way we define that feeling of safety varies so much. And, in the end, with or without firearms, people will be tortured and killed by bad people. 

Why spend so much emotional energy on trying to control what is uncontrollable by you?


----------



## FHBOY

As a rather verbose individual, I can appreciate it 1f Mark 1 is not able to summarize his views, but even I get cross eyed at what I am trying to read. 

Since I was the poster of the Four Questions:" How, When, Who and What" at the beginning of his last post I read his logical arguments and appreciate what he says - yet cannot agree with it, nor will I try to rebut them, I just can't follow them.

Mark 1 - you and several other posters, me included, have different world views, and that is OK, you do not have to agree with me, nor I you and we can still get along. I've lived 62 years without even holding or firing a gun, I've lived with the basic tenet of "Do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you" which includes thinking that "they" were out to do me harm. A bit naive? Yes, but it has served me well, just as arming yourself has served you well. Having opposing views does not mean we can't live together IRL or on this Forum, but I think we have beaten this topic to death and then some.

:deadhorse: 

Once again, I am moving on.


----------



## pappabee

I have to share with you about my one and only brush with having a gun in the house. My first wife and I were just married and we were living on the west side of Cleveland Ohio in a high rise apartment. We were living on the ground floor and our next door neighbor was a local police officer and his wife. His wife convinced my wife that she needed a gun for protection because I was working two jobs and didn’t get home till after 11PM.

So we got an over under 410/22long gun. Everything was fine and the next door neighbor taught my wife how to use it. He basically said with a 410 just point it in the right direction and pull the trigger. You may not kill the intruder but you’ll sure make him think about leaving quickly.

One night I came home even later than normal and since I didn’t want to wake her I left the lights off and I started to walk across the living room floor. What I didn’t know was the she had rearranged the furniture. I fell over the back of the sofa and onto the table. She comes out of the bedroom with the shotgun and would have fired it except she forgot to cock it. Needless to say, the gun was gone the next morning.


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## ZihuaRob

Well, I don't know where everyone lives, but I live in Guerrero, a severely impoverished state wracked by more corruption than most and with a long history of violence. Many folks will even still argue that the Guerra Sucia continues here. Violent caciques with no end to their greed fight for control over Guerrero's resources, so much so that being a campesino ecologista here is almost as dangerous as being a narco.

That said, while a lot of folks may keep a firearm in their home, even if they had a break in (what do you steal from folks who already have nothing?) it is unlikely they would use it but instead would try to vacate their home and wait until the intruder is gone. There are numerous reasons why folks do this, but mostly for survival. If you shoot someone, never mind the fact you'll probably go to jail while the mess is sorted out and the judge is bribed, it is very likely their family is going to seek retribution. 

Folks that feel they need weapons or extensive home security probably should not consider living in Mexico since they are apparently already afraid of the place. Some of the best home security is making use of simple things. Squeeky doors/gates, crunchy gravel walkways, motion-sensor lights, a dog. But really the best security is not to look like you have anything worth stealing. Don't flaunt your wealth and don't invite your "new friends" home from bars. Make any workers you have earn your trust. I've lost count of the number of crimes I've heard of where someone was robbed or killed by either a worker or a worker's relative.

I've become accustomed to living in fairly lawless places where you simply can't count on the police coming to your rescue but instead they are just as likely to be criminals themselves. I refuse to live in fear. But as lawless as Guerrero is, I feel safer here than I ever did in Florida where any psychocretin can buy and carry a firearm. In Florida I was shot at at least twice just in different incidents of road rage (yeah, I might've accidentally cut someone off or cut it a little close when passing, but still). In over 23 years here in Mexico the closest I've ever come to being shot is during the celebrations for holidays when I could hear bullets as they went zinging by.

While the daily news may make Mexico seem like a battle ground, Mexico's gun culture is, in my humble opinion, mostly a thing of the past. Most families I know are happy that we don't have the same gun culture as does the USA, and as far as I know most Mexicans don't wish for any change in our laws regarding firearms.


----------



## FHBOY

ZihuaRob said:


> Well, I don't know where everyone lives, ...and as far as I know most Mexicans don't wish for any change in our laws regarding firearms.


_"Folks that feel they need weapons or extensive home security probably should not consider living in Mexico since they are apparently already afraid of the place."

"But as lawless as Guerrero is, I feel safer here than I ever did in Florida where any psychocretin can buy and carry a firearm."
_
*...and for me those two sentences sum it all up. And, this is from a person who lives in Mexico and for a long time, which lends credibility - which is ultimately the important factor.*

Amen


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## stilltraveling

polamexpat said:


> So what are the options for an expat in Mexico to defend himself/herself during a home invasion by an intruder? Taser? Pepper spray? Kitchen knife? Or using these in self-defense will get you arrested as well?


I used a bottle of WD40 and a Bic lighter. Some tweekers were busting the lock off my iron door with a drill (apparently they were unaware that sound travels). As soon as they opened the inner door (made of wood, they kicked it right open) I set off the flamethrower. They ran leaving behind a cordless drill and the smell of burnt hair. That was in Tijuana. I moved shortly thereafter. 

Your best bet is to live in a secured building. If you live in a house, make sure you have bars on all the windows and doors. If nothing else, it buys you time to improvise. A big barking dog in the house is a good option as well, but if you leave it in the yard someone will poison it.


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## FHBOY

stilltraveling said:


> I used a bottle of WD40 and a Bic lighter. Some tweekers were busting the lock off my iron door with a drill (apparently they were unaware that sound travels). As soon as they opened the inner door (made of wood, they kicked it right open) I set off the flamethrower. They ran leaving behind a cordless drill and the smell of burnt hair. That was in Tijuana. I moved shortly thereafter.
> 
> Your best bet is to live in a secured building. If you live in a house, make sure you have bars on all the windows and doors. If nothing else, it buys you time to improvise. A big barking dog in the house is a good option as well, but if you leave it in the yard someone will poison it.


How do snarling cats do?


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## stilltraveling

FHBOY said:


> How do snarling cats do?


I've found that a cat's undying loyalty goes to whomever holds the can opener.


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## Isla Verde

Have I been missing out on something the 5 years I've been living in Mexico? No home invasions. No robberies. No feelings that any minute I'm going to be attacked or kidnapped. What am I doing wrong?


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## stilltraveling

Isla Verde said:


> Have I been missing out on something the 5 years I've been living in Mexico? No home invasions. No robberies. No feelings that any minute I'm going to be attacked or kidnapped. What am I doing wrong?


You're not living in TJ. That's the only place I've had problems anywhere in over 20 years living throughout Latin America. It was a bad time. I hear it's gotten a lot better.


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## ZihuaRob

FHBOY said:


> How do snarling cats do?


They probably work best when you throw them.


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## Mark1

pappabee said:


> I had a college logic professor who once said that if you can't convince them with facts you might want to dazzle them with footwork. I feel this is what you're doing. And the most interesting part of it is you may not know that you're doing it.


 Thank you for your complement; albeit I'm not sure how it advances the substance of the discussion. 

I took a quick look at google looking for statistics home invasion and found a couple of sites which seemed to me to be somewhat helpful. I hasten to add that these are URLs and I do not characterize them as "facts":

Home Invasion News | Archive | Home Invasion Statistics
Home invasion stats?

I express no opinion on the reliability of either site. 

To summarize what I found, there seems to be very little in the way of data on home invasions in the US. A problem is that home invasions are not a crime classification that is tabulated separately from other crimes. There seems to be no evidence that the incidence of home invasions is high. (I certainly have made no statement that could be interpreted as suggesting a high incidence.)

Another interesting observation was that some "home" invasions appear to be associated with illegal drugs. Seems plausible. To whatever extent that might be true, if we had statistics - which we don't have - they might be skewed if the community of our interest were less likely than average to be involved in illegal drugs. I emphasize that these remarks are pure conjecture on my part; they are certainly not facts.

Regards,
Mark


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## Mark1

mickisue1 said:


> The issue, for me, with "footwork" like Mark's is that it comes from such an entirely different worldview from mine that I have difficulty even beginning to follow the first few steps, much less, the tapping and twirling.
> 
> I can't fathom a world where I would believe that having a firearm made me safer anywhere. A world where I limited my experiences based on a desire to drive as close to zero as possible the likelihood that anything "bad" would happen to me.


Thank you for the 2'nd complement; albeit I'm still not able to see how such pleasantries advance the topic.

I feel your pain in being unable to understand "such an entirely different worldview" from your own. I sometimes fe el the same way about others' worldview. Yet, I strive to persevere.

A friend recounted his mother's experience on the topic of firearms. The mother harbored much the same abhorrence for guns as has been expressed by so many on this thread. Couldn't be budged from this position; until her sister took her to a gun range for some target practice. Mom made a 180 turn. She enjoyed herself and no longer feels this way.

My friend recounted his own experience with his own fear-of-flying. He was terrified anticipating and enduring his first 4 flights. Then, he signed up for flight school and began his "behind-the-wheel" lessons. No more problem flying either in the pilot's seat or back in coach.

Despite experiences such as these two, I'm sure that they are as rare as home invasions. No experience - whether hands-on or through dialogue - is apt to alter the way you feel. I, for one, wouldn't want to influence you in any way. (I hope that I have written nothing in this thread to urge anyone - not heretofore inclined - to consider keeping or bearing arms. If my intentions were misconstrued, let me clarify my view: I urge no one to reconsider their viewpoint concerning firearms, Mexicans' sensibilities, or expats' standing under the laws of Mexico.)

It occurs to me that much of the discussion on this thread has focused on "feeling" safe. I thanked one of the posters for his comments which inspired me to reflect on my feelings of safety or lack thereof. 

I have been pretty much free of feelings of being unsafe my entire life. (Noting an exception for the pack of dogs that crossed my path 43 or so years ago. They ignored me - I'm OK with that.) I realized that i don't really associate having firearms with a feeling of safety; they just don't intersect in my daily - even yearly - experience of life. 

I do have a concern for safety; that concern is that my feelings of being safe in Mexico are based on my experiences of 40+ years ago. Today's Mexico is different from what it was then. I'm apt to feel much safer than I probably ought to. 

I'm probably going to have to cultivate a somewhat higher level of consciousness concerning my environment on the streets.

In any case, I'm concerned about safety, not my feelings of safety. Those concerns are directed at those things I can cost-effectively do to improve my 1'st, 2'nd, and finally my last lines of defense. I assure you all that I will sleep quite comfortably; and I will spend my time in the streets without worry. I have always felt safe in Mexico (without any firearms) and expect to feel safe when I return to Mexico in the foreseeable future.

Regards,
Mark


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## polamexpat

Having read opinions expressed in this thread, it appears that the best defense in case of home invasion (assuming all prevention has failed) is to run if you can and thus vacate your property for criminal(s) to do their job. It does not matter if you have a machete or a firearm because if you use any of these and kill the intruder(s), you will most likely go to jail and/or possibly get killed by his/her/their family. 
Needless to say, I will have to kiss goodbye to Sra. Beretta before moving to Mexico... :kiss:


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## Mark1

I wouldn't hold out much hope for running away given the architeture of Mexican houses. Naturally, it is going to depend on the specific layout of each individual house.

My experience is with houses in a major city. Typically, there is just one door at the front of the house; or, possibly 2 doors at the front. The sides and back are walled-in; part of the perimiter defense. You can't run out the back door and across the country to your neighbor. If your invader came from the back/side you could run out the front door; even so, his accomplices might be waiting out front.

Even if the architecture allowed for a means of egress, you wouldn't have much time to react.

Given the alternatives, I'd run if I could; I just don't think that's apt to be a practical strategy. Next is to raise whatever defense you can. I frankly don't understand the reluctance to using potentially deadly force against an intruder. Self defense is an accepted concept in Mexican law. If the intruder has no legitimate reason for being in your house you have a basis for self defense. By all means, consult your own lawyer in Mexico; don't rely on the opinion of any expat on a point of Mexican criminal law.

As far as the intruder's family and friends; I'll deal with them as a subsequent problem. If I'm dead it is small consolation that I won't have to deal with the intruder's family or friends.

Mark


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## conorkilleen

I have a machete and baseball bat combo in almost every major room in my house. If someone is breaking into my house unarmed, then they get the bat end if I determine my fists are not enough. Knees are very fragile. 

If someone is breaking into my house armed, then pray to god for them. If you break into my house with a weapon, you are obviously planning on using it against me and my family. Again...god help you. My family first, caring about the persons family who is assaulting me is last.

In my past life I have become pretty handy not needing a firearm, but I do love them still even though I can't have one (yet) in Mexico.


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## GeorgGrey

romileti said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> We are new and we're planning on moving to Mexico in a few months. I am Army retired and my wife if from Veracruz, Mexico. I have many questions but I need to start by asking about registering a pistol (Glock 25 caliber). Can I get some advice? Is it too hard to register? Do I need to just sell it and forget it? Thanks in advance.


You are right - just sell it and forget it! The way things are down here is that just possessing a gun is a major crime. And getting a license for it is near impossible. 

The upside is, don't really need one.


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## polamexpat

*A rash of home-invasions...*

From USA Today :scared::



> Crime outside of the drug violence was never a major issue here, but reports are growing of cartel thugs terrorizing people in general. The Guadalajara-Chapala highway was blocked last year by men who hijacked vehicles.
> 
> A rash of home-invasions included the death of American Christopher Kahr, 69, who was shot in November in his garage while unloading groceries.
> 
> People here say Kahr's murder had nothing to do with organized crime, but it woke up the expatriate community to worsening safety. Some foreigners protested outside City Hall and formed the Community Safety Initiative - also known as CSI Chapala - which proposed safety ideas like establishing an anonymous hotline for crime tips. A chapter of the Guardian Angels is being formed to patrol one of the villages.


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## pappabee

polamexpat said:


> From USA Today :scared::


All right, let's put a little fact with the news. Mr Kahr was shot because he didn't follow the suggestions of most law enforcement people. Not just in Mexico but in most other countries including the US. 

First of all Mr. Kahr had opened his garage doors and was unloading his purchases. The robber entered the open garage and demanded his wallet. He refused and (from some reports) he started to yell. The robber shot him. 

I don't know how many times I have seen or heard people being told that if a robber wants your wallet. GIVE IT TO HIM!!!! Your life is worth much more. 

Mr. Kahr didn't follow that. He could have been in his home town and had the same thing happen. Now I'm very sorry for his family and it was a very sad thing to happen but it in it's self is not indicative of Mexico. It's indicative of something that could happen when someone, for whatever reason, doesn't follow accepted safety measures.


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## Guest

Here's a tip for newcomers to MX and for those who don't really think about things to do in order to protect themselves. I've lived in Latin America for a loong time, and been in some of the roughest, toughest areas one could ever find here (think areas where cops were too afraid to go into alone). At times when necessary, a LOT of cash on my person. Knock on wood, NEVER had a problem.

Thinking about most men NOB, they carry their lives (all of their credit cards, debit cards, cash, business cards, photos, receipts, whatever) around in a big fat wallet, usually stuck in their back pockets. They are as bad as women and their purses. The older the woman, usually the bigger the bag. 

When you come to MX, *STOP DOING THIS.* The objective of the following description is that with proper preparation, one should never have to pull out a roll of money in public. If you're doing your monthly supermarket run, then find an empty aisle before checkout, pull out the amount of money you think you'll need to pay the cashier, and an extra 500 pesos and stick it in your shirt pocket. In private, in that aisle. You're NOT going to pull out a wad of cash from a big fat bundle or wallet in front of the cashier, the bag boys and all of those other nosy eyes watching your every move.

Go to your kitchen table and sit down. Now. Bring along four big fat rubber bands.

In one group (we'll call this your "walking around money"), put a few 20 pesos, 50 pesos, 100 pesos, and maybe one 200 peso note. Add a few business cards that were out of date 10 years ago, from anywhere (just not your own with your name on them). Add your driver's license to this batch. Throw in an expired credit card or two. Then wrap two of the big rubber bands around this batch. Raid the Free Dinner drawing jar at the nearest IHOP if you really don't still have a bunch of old, worthless business cards stashed somewhere. This walking around money goes in your front pants pocket whenever you go out of your front door. The drivers license is so they can easily identify your body should you suffer a massive heart attack after watching a muchacha strolling out of the beauty parlor, or if you get hit by a bus. Makes the cops' work easier.

Then for the other batch (we'll call this your "in-case money"), put one current credit or debit card. Add the number of 200 and 500 pesos notes you feel comfortable carrying around (this varies by the person, for me it's usually another 1000-2000 pesos). Put the other 2 big fat rubber bands around your "in-case" money. Take this along if you're making a drive or planning on being out for a few hours or all day. This "in-case" money NEVER goes in the same pocket as your "walking around money". Another front pocket, your sock, just somewhere else.

Take your wallet out of your pants and tuck it away at home somewhere that you won't forget where it is, but well hidden, and leave it there until the cobwebs start forming over it. With planning, you won't need it again until you fly out to Cincinnati or wherever.

When you go out for no reason at all, or on an errand that you know and remember what you're going out for, and only for a short time (i.e. coffee with the boys, a newspaper, a new faucet washer for the kitchen, etc ) You should know about what it will cost so remove that amount or a bit more from your walking around money. Place it in your shirt pocket. You do this so you will rarely have to pull out those bills in the rubber bands in public. Leave your "in-case" money at home. You shouldn't need it for a short trip out.

If you're taking a ride to the city, or will be out most of the day, take along your "in-case" money but put it away somewhere else on your person. "In case".

For the ladies, do this as well. Do you really need to drag around all of that makeup, brushes. combs, lip gloss, nail trimmers, perfume, 300 photos of your children and grandchildren, a magazine, a rain bonnet, hand sanitizer, nail polish in 4 colors, 3 lollipops, two feminine napkins and 400 pesos in coins? Go hang out at the local small shop and watch the local amas de casa pull 50 pesos out of their bras to pay the bill with no purse in sight. 

If someone confronts you with a weapon outside, toss them the "walking around money". Better yet, throw it a meter or two behind them and to the side so they can get some momentum built up to run away with your walking around money, instead of staying put and thinking about shooting you. They'll probably take it and run. If some cop pulls you over intent on mordida, he'll only get a few hundred pesos at most instead of 1000 or more too. Good riddance, and you're out a few hundred pesos. At least you gained a story for coffee time tomorrow. Be safe out there.


-


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## Quetza

I agree with not carrying a big fat wallet with pretty much your whole life inside it. Nothing screams "Rich tourist" higher than that. 
You should only carry what you will need and not only because of potencial thieves but also because I've seen people have huge problems when they lose their wallet with everything inside it including bank receipts and pieces of paper with confidential info so they "don't forget it". 
Also, keeping anything you don't want to lose in the back pockets is a terrible idea. The best way to get something lost or stolen actually, so avoid that at all costs!

Not saying that you are don't understand us ladies but while it's true that some girls do carry too many things, a lot of times a feminine napkin, a bit of toilet paper or kleenex and some extra change in the bag are a must when going out to somewhere farther away than a local trip to the market. 

However, I find GringoCArlos' tips a bit too much. Of course, if you go for a walk around the neighborhood or to a really nearby place where you know exactly how much will you spend, there's absolutely no need to take anything but money in the front pocket. But for daily life, not carrying a small wallet with the basic things you need and instead using rubber bands sounds impractical to me. I think that way is easier to lose your cards or ID.

My advice would be to limit to a minimum what you have in you wallet, to buy one that's functional more than ostentacious and yes, to never take out more money than what you'll need to pay in front of unknown people. Also, it's a good idea to have what you'll need for transportation and loose change spreaded in your pockets and/or bag outside the wallet to pay small amounts of money. 
If you're too afraid of being robbed when you go out with a lot of money maybe consider having a little wallet in your pocket with only the necesary money and another one with the big bills hidden in the car or in the depths of your bag. 

And I must be living in the wrong part of Mexico because I have always seen the people taking the money out of their pants pockets or a little wallet and never witnessed a lady taking money out of her bra! (Actually, señoras are known for always having little monederos) 

A different opinion but same advice: Stay safe <3


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## Detailman

Quetza said:


> I agree with not carrying a big fat wallet with pretty much your whole life inside it. Nothing screams "Rich tourist" higher than that.
> You should only carry what you will need and not only because of potencial thieves but also because I've seen people have huge problems when they lose their wallet with everything inside it including bank receipts and pieces of paper with confidential info so they "don't forget it".
> Also, keeping anything you don't want to lose in the back pockets is a terrible idea. The best way to get something lost or stolen actually, so avoid that at all costs!
> 
> Not saying that you are don't understand us ladies but while it's true that some girls do carry too many things, a lot of times a feminine napkin, a bit of toilet paper or kleenex and some extra change in the bag are a must when going out to somewhere farther away than a local trip to the market.
> 
> However, I find GringoCArlos' tips a bit too much. Of course, if you go for a walk around the neighborhood or to a really nearby place where you know exactly how much will you spend, there's absolutely no need to take anything but money in the front pocket. But for daily life, not carrying a small wallet with the basic things you need and instead using rubber bands sounds impractical to me. I think that way is easier to lose your cards or ID.
> 
> My advice would be to limit to a minimum what you have in you wallet, to buy one that's functional more than ostentacious and yes, to never take out more money than what you'll need to pay in front of unknown people. Also, it's a good idea to have what you'll need for transportation and loose change spreaded in your pockets and/or bag outside the wallet to pay small amounts of money.
> If you're too afraid of being robbed when you go out with a lot of money maybe consider having a little wallet in your pocket with only the necesary money and another one with the big bills hidden in the car or in the depths of your bag.
> 
> And I must be living in the wrong part of Mexico because I have always seen the people taking the money out of their pants pockets or a little wallet and never witnessed a lady taking money out of her bra! (Actually, señoras are known for always having little monederos)
> 
> A different opinion but same advice: Stay safe <3


GringoCArlos was giving advice for those that would rather be safe than sorry and you will note that his experience and advice was based on living in a number of very dangerous areas of Latin America without any incidents happening to him.

Viewpoint, or opinion, is always an expression of experience or lack thereof. For example, if you had been robbed several times you might find that his advice would be something that you would accept 100%. If you have never experienced any danger you have a tendancy to dismiss a certain amount of precaution. It is only after the fact that a person says: "Never again!"

That is simply a fact of life and it applies to much more than security precautions. Your personal experiences can affect your viewpoint of life itself.


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## Quetza

I never tried to suggest that GringoCArlos' advice is one that should never be followed and I'm sorry if it seemed like that. Just wanted to give a different opinion based on my own experience living in not so nice places of Mexico City so people reading this could have more options to decide what measure of security they feel confortable taking. I think it's better to have more points of view before making any decision. 

And of course everyone has a viewpoint of everything that varies depending of that person's life experience, that's what make communities like this so interesting 

Thanks for pointing to me that I sounded a bit condescending with the previous poster, Detailman! English is not my fist language so I'm always glad to improve the way I express myself through written word.

Edit: I just asked my mom and she says women carrying their bills in their bra was very common until recently and that it still is in rural areas or pueblos. Learning new things everyday ^_^


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## mickisue1

Quetza said:


> I never tried to suggest that GringoCArlos' advice is one that should never be followed and I'm sorry if it seemed like that. Just wanted to give a different opinion based on my own experience living in not so nice places of Mexico City so people reading this could have more options to decide what measure of security they feel confortable taking. I think it's better to have more points of view before making any decision.
> 
> And of course everyone has a viewpoint of everything that varies depending of that person's life experience, that's what make communities like this so interesting
> 
> Thanks for pointing to me that I sounded a bit condescending with the previous poster, Detailman! English is not my fist language so I'm always glad to improve the way I express myself through written word.
> 
> Edit: I just asked my mom and she says women carrying their bills in their bra was very common until recently and that it still is in rural areas or pueblos. Learning new things everyday ^_^


I was thinking about GringoCarlos's advice this morning. My husband was in a race, and I was planning to leave my (small) purse in the car when I went to the finish line to cheer him on. 

But.

I wanted my phone to take video of him, I had his phone because the roofer might be calling to tell him when he'd be here to temporarily cover the area that is leaking after 8 storms in 6 days, and I also had a book and two containers of liquid: my tea, and his protein beverage for right after the race.

With the purse, I could put two of those things in a carrier over my shoulder. 

And had the kleenex that Quetza mentioned, besides.


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## Guest

Yes, my advice was on the cautious side. It has worked in the big bad city for me, and also out in Mayberry. Take or use what you want, just be safe.


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## FHBOY

Quetza said:


> I never tried to suggest that GringoCArlos' advice is one that should never be followed and I'm sorry if it seemed like that.


Quetza - as a newbie to the Forum, please know that opinions and comments are never taken personally as long as it is done respectfully. In this way we are very respectful of each other. Saying that,we seem to also be very honest in our replies which is a sign of maturity (altho some of us really didn't want to grow up  - but I digress). Please join in, and understand that some here will not always agree with what you say, but will, if it is said with respect, defend your right to say it.

I have found this Forum to a a place where, if we all physically in one room, we'd all be having great discussions, heated yes at some points, but in the end, we'd be able share a cup of coffee or a drink together.

So, don't hold back, let people know what you are thinking what you've seen. We are all friends here - even when we disagree.


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## Detailman

FHBOY said:


> Quetza - as a newbie to the Forum, please know that opinions and comments are never taken personally as long as it is done respectfully. In this way we are very respectful of each other. Saying that,we seem to also be very honest in our replies which is a sign of maturity (altho some of us really didn't want to grow up  - but I digress). Please join in, and understand that some here will not always agree with what you say, but will, if it is said with respect, defend your right to say it.
> 
> I have found this Forum to a a place where, if we all physically in one room, we'd all be having great discussions, heated yes at some points, but in the end, we'd be able share a cup of coffee or a drink together.
> 
> So, don't hold back, let people know what you are thinking what you've seen. We are all friends here - even when we disagree.


Totally agree and personally I didn't find your use of the English language lacking. I just happent to come from a background where I was associated with individuals that had abundant training in security. (The individuals that I worked with had over 20 years with the RCMP.) And working with those individuals over a 30 year period taught me many things that I would I would not have learned otherwise.


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## FHBOY

Quetza said:


> I never tried to suggest that GringoCArlos' advice is one that should never be followed Detailman! English is not my fist language so I'm always glad to improve the way I express myself through written word.


Quetza
1. Does your handle have a meaning?
2. I only hope my Spanish can be as good as your English!


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## Isla Verde

FHBOY said:


> Quetza
> 1. Does your handle have a meaning?
> 2. I only hope my Spanish can be as good as your English!


1. No doubt it's short for Quetzalcoatl, the Feathered Serpent. It's nice to have a god among us!

2. Quetza's English is wonderful. If only my students could write English as well!


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## Quetza

FHBOY said:


> Quetza
> 1. Does your handle have a meaning?
> 2. I only hope my Spanish can be as good as your English!


1. Isla Verde is right, it stands both for Quetzalcoatl the god and for the Quetzal, the little bird of which feathers were used as primitve coin in prehispanic times. I've always felt a strong fascination for those little feathered friends.

2. I'm flattered!I took 3 years of english in middle school and then have being studying on my own for a few years and it's nice to know my efforts have payed off  

You could be better in spanish than me in english because you have the whole inmersion experience to your advantage, use the mexican people around you to get everyday lessons!  Or even the english-speaking ones! I speak spanglish with my sister everyday and it's very helpful to be able to catch your own mistakes reflected on those the other person makes.

One of the best things is trying to use only spanish for specific activities, i.e. participating in spanish speaking forums, watching spanish movies without subs, writting essays, translating songs or short stories, that kind of things. Butting out of other people's bussiness now!


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## Isla Verde

One good way to work on your Spanish or English is to have a trusted friend or two who will promise to gently correct any important mistakes you make when speaking or writing. That's a big part of what I do with my students. They've pretty much studied all the grammar they'll ever need but need help with using it correctly and consistently and with vocabulary building, especially those pesky idioms and phrasal verbs.


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