# Getting help resolving car problem.



## Mattskii

I purchased a car from a main dealer which came with a 1 year guarantee. 

Within 2 months the airbag system had malfunctioned and was flashing its warning light.

I have been back to have the system repaired 3 times, and it has now failed a 4th time and they want is back again. I have been told several different stories about what the problem is and how it should be fixed depending on who you get to talk to there.

Doe anyone know where can find out what my rights are? Surely if they have sold me a car with a malfunctioning safety system (The airbags and the seat belt pre tensioners will not operate whist the error light is flashing according to the manual) they are duty bound to repair it or replace the car regardless of any guarantee?

Where can I get help?


----------



## BodgieMcBodge

Before you enter the litigation route ask them for their official complaints book as this is exactly what it is for. Prepare you complaint beforhand making it concise and verifiable fact based ie not based on what you thought they said over the phone. This should then be officially investigated.


----------



## wink

I read on another expat forum of a similar situation where there was a problem with a car under guarantee that the garage refused to fix and although the complaint registered in the garage's complaint book by the car owner was upheld there was no way of enforcing it other than legal action.


----------



## travelling-man

wink said:


> I read on another expat forum of a similar situation where there was a problem with a car under guarantee that the garage refused to fix and although the complaint registered in the garage's complaint book by the car owner was upheld there was no way of enforcing it other than legal action.


I was striped up for more than €1K by seven sport in condeixa near coimbra who have the website SevenSport - Carros Usados, Automoveis Usados em Coimbra when they refused to honour their guarantee. 

I wrote in their complaints book and in the fullness of time, received a letter telling me that seven sport in condeixa coimbra were in the wrong and I had every right to sue them........... but you don't get any help in doing that and have to take out a private prosecution which could easily cost you more than the initial loss. 

My advice to car buyers now is to only buy from branded dealers who are more likely to stand by their guarantee and certainly to NEVER buy from Seven Sport in Condeixa, Coimbra and who have the website SevenSport - Carros Usados, Automoveis Usados em Coimbra because they do not honour their guarantee and certainly didn't when they refused to pay for my engine rebuild when it blew up during the guarantee period.

Oh and isn't it wonderful how search engine spiders will pick up everything I've said and spread it all over the internet so my comments will show up every time someone searches on Seven Sport Condeixa Coimbra with the website sevensport.net


----------



## jorge123

Hope you were able to get help and here I was in the belief that crooked car dealers only happened in the usa.


----------



## travelling-man

I decided it wasn't worth taking them to court because of the additional cost so instead I name and shame Seven Sport in Condeixa Coimbra who have the site at SevenSport - Carros Usados, Automoveis Usados em Coimbra at every opportunity.


----------



## Mattskii

Thanks guys.

I have had the car booked in for more 'repairs' Thursday next week.

I swear that I have driven this car with a fault for more miles than I have without. 

They are making every effort to look like they are doing the right thing. They keep 'fixing' it. Free. And with a free replacement car too!  But they keep changing their story. At first they told me (twice) it was the wiring under the drivers seat and if it happened again that a part would need to be replaced. Now they tell me that was not the case, it was something else. 

What I don't understand is they they assume you are stupid. Despite being told on a couple of occasions what the problem was, now I complain that it keeps recurving they are insistent that it is NOT actually the same problem each visit. Apparently every time the fault occurs it is a different part of the safety system which has failed, and therefore not the same problem!! LOL Seriously? Do I have "STUPID" tattooed on my forehead? 

There must be statutory regulations on safety systems working in cars being sold? If they can't fix it, surely they are duty bound to replace the car?


----------



## BodgieMcBodge

Assuming there is an intermittent fault, which is the usual situation with modern vehicles, then this sets a "flag" in the vehicle's Electronic Control Unit with a fault code. The fault *may exist for a fraction of a second *but the "flag" remains till it is reset. The garage will read the fault codes, here a standard OBD2 fault code list which modern cars must comply with 

OBD II Fault Codes. 

the code does not necessary point to one single specific item at fault but after reading all the flagged fault codes the garage will reset them and try the car again to see if the fault code is flagged again. If the flag was "fault in airbag system" and if it is not flagged whilst in their possession they have no obvious way of finding why the fault code was flagged in your possession. As this is probably the case then why would you accuse them of calling you "stupid" ?


----------



## Mattskii

BodgieMcBodge said:


> Assuming there is an intermittent fault, which is the usual situation with modern vehicles, then this sets a "flag" in the vehicle's Electronic Control Unit with a fault code. The fault *may exist for a fraction of a second *but the "flag" remains till it is reset. The garage will read the fault codes, here a standard OBD2 fault code list which modern cars must comply with
> 
> OBD II Fault Codes.
> 
> the code does not necessary point to one single specific item at fault but after reading all the flagged fault codes the garage will reset them and try the car again to see if the fault code is flagged again. If the flag was "fault in airbag system" and if it is not flagged whilst in their possession they have no obvious way of finding why the fault code was flagged in your possession. As this is probably the case then why would you accuse them of calling you "stupid" ?


It's like this:

The first time it went in they told me wiring under the drivers seat was loose and needed reseating. 
The second time it went in they told me the problem was the wiring under the drivers seat (The actual guy that fixed it told me this) And that if it occurred again they would have to replace the part.
The third time I took it in they said they had no idea what could cause it, and they needed to do more testing. Testing showed that it was my umbrella which was under the drivers seat which must have knocked the wires loose. 
I said "Well replace it like you said you would - it is the same fault every time." 
They told me "No. It isn't the same every time. The first time it was a fault with the light. The second time it was a fault with the plug, this time it is a fault with the wire."

:confused2:

I now have to take in in for a 4th time for more 'testing'. 

So in light of the very generic style of the error codes, who is talking stupid? Them or me?

I think I have a right to be annoyed by this situation? (Even if that doesn't help me)


----------



## Eddward

*Recurring problem*

Hi,

How frustrating. I have worked repairing electrical systems (amongst other things) for many years. I would suggest that you ask them to check the entire system that is faulty, so that they can confirm that there are no more loose wires or plugs that would cause you to make another visit for the same system. I would tell them that this would be the reasonable thing for them to do given the inconvenience to you that this problem has caused, as you bought the vehicle in good faith, and have been patient up to this point. I would be interested to hear what they have to say if you propose this to them. It s possible that they are telling the truth. It sounds silly and unlikely, but in all honesty I have had a selection of jobs over he years where every time you fix one bit, the next bit along the line breaks. Rare but it does happen. Who knows in your case.... Please keep us updated.

Regards, 

Edd


----------



## BodgieMcBodge

Eddward said:


> Hi,
> 
> How frustrating. I have worked repairing electrical systems (amongst other things) for many years. I would suggest that you ask them to check the entire system that is faulty, so that they can confirm that there are no more loose wires or plugs that would cause you to make another visit for the same system. I would tell them that this would be the reasonable thing for them to do given the inconvenience to you that this problem has caused, as you bought the vehicle in good faith, and have been patient up to this point. I would be interested to hear what they have to say if you propose this to them. It s possible that they are telling the truth. It sounds silly and unlikely, but in all honesty I have had a selection of jobs over he years where every time you fix one bit, the next bit along the line breaks. Rare but it does happen. Who knows in your case.... Please keep us updated.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Edd


Hi,

It almost certainly the case that a fault flag has been set momentary but there is not a permanent fault. The mechanic reads the fault code which says something like "an anomaly HAS occurred in the drivers pretension circuit" so checks the wiring of the "drivers pretension circuit" and finds it is not clipped onto one of its clips so repositions it then he/she clears the fault code and starts the car 20 times and the fault code does not reappear so declares the car good. Next time the car comes in with a fault he/she goes through the routine again, can't find anything physically wrong so unplugs the "drivers pretension circuit" connector and cleans it reconnects it then clears the fault code and starts the car 20 times and the fault light/code does not reoccur so declares it good. If they start the engine 20 times and no fault code occurs then they have little choice but to say there is nothing wrong and they can prove it by giving you a print out showing there are no faults indicated. If there is a broken wire or a permanent bad connection this would be easy to find and fix and ever tine the fault code/light was reset it would come on again immediately.


----------



## Mattskii

BodgieMcBodge said:


> Hi,
> 
> It almost certainly the case that a fault flag has been set momentary but there is not a permanent fault. The mechanic reads the fault code which says something like "an anomaly HAS occurred in the drivers pretension circuit" so checks the wiring of the "drivers pretension circuit" and finds it is not clipped onto one of its clips so repositions it then he/she clears the fault code and starts the car 20 times and the fault code does not reappear so declares the car good. Next time the car comes in with a fault he/she goes through the routine again, can't find anything physically wrong so unplugs the "drivers pretension circuit" connector and cleans it reconnects it then clears the fault code and starts the car 20 times and the fault light/code does not reoccur so declares it good. If they start the engine 20 times and no fault code occurs then they have little choice but to say there is nothing wrong and they can prove it by giving you a print out showing there are no faults indicated. If there is a broken wire or a permanent bad connection this would be easy to find and fix and ever tine the fault code/light was reset it would come on again immediately.


OK, so what is the solution? 

In reply to Eddward - I already did this. They told me they had removed all the seats and checked it end to end and it was all OK. That was a couple of Fridays ago. On the following Monday it malfunctioned again.


----------



## Mattskii

BodgieMcBodge said:


> Hi,
> 
> It almost certainly the case that a fault flag has been set momentary but there is not a permanent fault. The mechanic reads the fault code which says something like "an anomaly HAS occurred in the drivers pretension circuit" so checks the wiring of the "drivers pretension circuit" and finds it is not clipped onto one of its clips so repositions it then he/she clears the fault code and starts the car 20 times and the fault code does not reappear so declares the car good. Next time the car comes in with a fault he/she goes through the routine again, can't find anything physically wrong so unplugs the "drivers pretension circuit" connector and cleans it reconnects it then clears the fault code and starts the car 20 times and the fault light/code does not reoccur so declares it good. If they start the engine 20 times and no fault code occurs then they have little choice but to say there is nothing wrong and they can prove it by giving you a print out showing there are no faults indicated. If there is a broken wire or a permanent bad connection this would be easy to find and fix and ever tine the fault code/light was reset it would come on again immediately.




Just for the record I have done some additional searching. It seems the the airbag codes are likely to be a lot more specific than you state. They will point directly at the fault - EG "Drivers Seatbelt pre-tensioner open circuit" is Cat 10 Code 2 on the Opel. You may need the specific SRS airbag codes device to read these - I would expect a main dealer to have one though.

I don't know why you have any interest in defending them, they are are BSing me, that is plain for all to see. 

I was supposed to be there now having a repair done. They called me last night and lied about my appointment being yesterday. I am now booked for Tuesday instead. I know they are lying as A - I have an email confirmation from then that me appointment was today, and B - I always receive an SMS on the night before an appointment to remind me to attend. I did not get such an SMS the night before last! 

I am sick of the lies. It is disrespectful. 
I am sick of them trying to get out of their obligations. It is unprofessional.

What can be done? I dunno, but I am getting fed up.


----------



## BodgieMcBodge

Mattskii said:


> Just for the record I have done some additional searching. It seems the the airbag codes are likely to be a lot more specific than you state. They will point directly at the fault - EG "Drivers Seatbelt pre-tensioner open circuit" is Cat 10 Code 2 on the Opel. You may need the specific SRS airbag codes device to read these - I would expect a main dealer to have one though.
> 
> I don't know why you have any interest in defending them, they are are BSing me, that is plain for all to see.
> 
> I was supposed to be there now having a repair done. They called me last night and lied about my appointment being yesterday. I am now booked for Tuesday instead. I know they are lying as A - I have an email confirmation from then that me appointment was today, and B - I always receive an SMS on the night before an appointment to remind me to attend. I did not get such an SMS the night before last!
> 
> I am sick of the lies. It is disrespectful.
> I am sick of them trying to get out of their obligations. It is unprofessional.
> 
> What can be done? I dunno, but I am getting fed up.








Hi,


*"Just for the record I have done some additional searching. It seems that the airbag codes are likely to be a lot more specific than you state. They will point directly at the fault*" 

Then all you need to do is ask for the fault code and instruct the garage directly on which part YOU want changed to repair it. Ok you may have to pay for the part and labour but YOU KNOW it will be in perfect working order with no faults and you will not have to rely on their "lying and unprofessional" service anymore.


----------



## Mattskii

BodgieMcBodge said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> *"Just for the record I have done some additional searching. It seems that the airbag codes are likely to be a lot more specific than you state. They will point directly at the fault*"
> 
> Then all you need to do is ask for the fault code and instruct the garage directly on which part YOU want changed to repair it. Ok you may have to pay for the part and labour but YOU KNOW it will be in perfect working order with no faults and you will not have to rely on their "lying and unprofessional" service anymore.


I paid a lot of money for this car. It came with a one year guarantee. I paid a lot of money for a newish car with a one year guarantee precisely to try and avoid this sort of problem. I don't think it is reasonable for me to have to pay for parts and labour on an essential safety system, when there is still 6 months on the guarantee. Even without a guarantee there must be some sort of statutory regulations about safety systems actually not being faulty when a dealership sells a car.


----------



## Mattskii

OMG 

I don't know what to do. 

I took the car in for its 5th repair. They had it 10 days. They say they had a specialist come to the garage and update the system etc etc. I got it back and the trim around the dash is hanging off  They say - we never touched that bit, nothing to do with us. 

Within a week of finally getting the car back, my wife moves the drivers seat and the airbag fault light is on again. 

They have failed for almost a year to fix it, despite - I almost lost count - 5 or possibly 6 trips to them to fix it.

I am demanding a replacement car, but that does not look promising. 

What am i supposed to do!?!?


----------



## BodgieMcBodge

*


Mattskii said:



OMG 

I don't know what to do. 

I took the car in for its 5th repair. They had it 10 days. They say they had a specialist come to the garage and update the system etc etc. I got it back and the trim around the dash is hanging off  They say - we never touched that bit, nothing to do with us. 

Within a week of finally getting the car back, my wife moves the drivers seat and the airbag fault light is on again. 

They have failed for almost a year to fix it, despite - I almost lost count - 5 or possibly 6 trips to them to fix it.

I am demanding a replacement car, but that does not look promising. 

What am i supposed to do!?!?

Click to expand...


"Just for the record I have done some additional searching. It seems that the airbag codes are likely to be a lot more specific than you state. They will point directly at the fault"*

Then all you need to do is ask for the fault code and instruct the garage directly on which part YOU want changed to repair it. Ok you may have to pay for the part and labour but YOU KNOW it will be in perfect working order with no faults and you will not have to rely on their "lying and unprofessional" service anymore.


----------



## Mattskii

BodgieMcBodge said:


> *
> 
> 
> "Just for the record I have done some additional searching. It seems that the airbag codes are likely to be a lot more specific than you state. They will point directly at the fault"*
> 
> Then all you need to do is ask for the fault code and instruct the garage directly on which part YOU want changed to repair it. Ok you may have to pay for the part and labour but YOU KNOW it will be in perfect working order with no faults and you will not have to rely on their "lying and unprofessional" service anymore.


As logical and sensible as that sounds, I still question why, if I am sold a car with a fault, I should have to pay to rectify the fault. Especially as I have a guarantee. 

I'm not saying it won't come to that. But if it does, I will make and entry in their complaints book, and name them on every forum related to expats and those immigrating to Portugal. It is only fair to warn others about poor service and unfair practices, is it not?


----------



## JohnBoy

The complaints book is the way to go Matt and I wouldn't leave it any longer to make an entry.

I've PM'd you.


----------



## travelling-man

Mattskii said:


> As logical and sensible as that sounds, I still question why, if I am sold a car with a fault, I should have to pay to rectify the fault. Especially as I have a guarantee.
> 
> I'm not saying it won't come to that. But *if it does, I will make and entry in their complaints book, and name them on every forum related to expats and those immigrating to Portugal. It is only fair to warn others about poor service and unfair practices, is it not?*


Absolutely right and also exactly why I take every possible opportunity to recommend people DO NOT buy a car from Seven Sport Automoveis in Condeixa A Nova, Coimbra.

Such crooks who refuse to honour their guarantees should be named and shamed at every opportunity. 

Who did you buy your from Matt?


----------



## Mattskii

travelling-man said:


> Absolutely right and also exactly why I take every possible opportunity to recommend people DO NOT buy a car from Seven Sport Automoveis in Condeixa A Nova, Coimbra.
> 
> Such crooks who refuse to honour their guarantees should be named and shamed at every opportunity.
> 
> Who did you buy your from Matt?


Let the battle end before I name and shame! lol. They still have half a chance to put things right! If they do, I will give them the (belated) credit they are due. If not, expect fireworks. 

:boxing:


----------



## paramonte

Mattskii:

In your case, and if the dealer you bough the car from is not the car brand´s official dealer, I would ask for a reparation estimate from the car official dealer. At the same time you would get their opinion as what they think the problem is...

I am not sure if you would have to pay for the estimate...

Some electric and electronic problems can be hard to solve for work-shops that are not specific to the car brand, although they are entirely liable regarding the car problem.


----------



## BodgieMcBodge

paramonte said:


> Mattskii:
> 
> In your case, and if the dealer you bough the car from is not the car brand´s official dealer, I would ask for a reparation estimate from the car official dealer. At the same time you would get their opinion as what they think the problem is...
> 
> I am not sure if you would have to pay for the estimate...
> 
> Some electric and electronic problems can be hard to solve for work-shops that are not specific to the car brand, although they are entirely liable regarding the car problem.




There is no evidence supplied, ie fault codes, so your assumption that there is ONE problem for the 5 or 6 visits to the garage is not sustainable.

The garage are not liable (hi Mr. One Sided Judge) as every (5 or 6) times the vehicle has been accepted and taken away which shows there is NO fault when the complainant accepts the vehicle and removes it from the premises. He /She accepts there is no fault with the vehicle by taking it away.

BUT 

This will just go round in circles, the complaint can decide to resolve the situation independently of the garage but chooses not to.


----------



## Mattskii

BodgieMcBodge said:


> There is no evidence supplied, ie fault codes, so your assumption that there is ONE problem for the 5 or 6 visits to the garage is not sustainable.
> 
> The garage are not liable (hi Mr. One Sided Judge) as every (5 or 6) times the vehicle has been accepted and taken away which shows there is NO fault when the complainant accepts the vehicle and removes it from the premises. He /She accepts there is no fault with the vehicle by taking it away.
> 
> BUT
> 
> This will just go round in circles, the complaint can decide to resolve the situation independently of the garage but chooses not to.


You do jump to some illogical and unsustainable conclusions don't you? lol

[He /She accepts there is no fault with the vehicle by taking it away.] 

Not true in the slightest. It has been explicitly discussed prior to my taking the vehicle that I am not happy that a full repair has been made, and I am only taking it away to "see how it goes". Their term not mine. 

[There is no evidence supplied, ie fault codes, so your assumption that there is ONE problem for the 5 or 6 visits to the garage is not sustainable.]

Again, not true. I have been told 2 times where the fault lies. This is backed up by real life experience. IE - you move the drivers seat and the light comes on. 3 times in a row!! And that is after being told twice that the problem lies with the wiring under the drivers seat. How can this be anything other than "evidence" of where the fault lies? 

Is the garage liable? Probably. Within a couple of weeks of taking possession, and for the whole 9 months I have owned it, the main safety system has not worked. It is 100% reasonable to assume it did not work when it was sold. There are European wide rules on this, I think you will find. 

You seem entirely unsupportive, even critical, of a fellow board member who is - in my opinion - not being treated fairly by a wealthy organisation, and entirely supportive of that organisation. Makes me wonder what your motivations are. Or perhaps you just like to argue?


----------



## BodgieMcBodge

No no no. We do technical investigations and reports, every statement has to have supporting evidence. ie. This car has a fault, evidence. here is the fault code read by this garage on 27th May 2015 and here is the explanation of that fault code. This car has another fault, evidence, here is the fault code read by that garage on 30 May 2015 and here is the explanation of that fault code. What doesn't scan is " This car has a fault I've been driving it for two weeks with my umbrella jammed under the seat and the garage are sh*t". If you are going to seriously complain about your garage you will need to provide evidence for every statement otherwise each unsubstantiated point will be ignored by whoever is adjudicating the matter. Maybe you would be so kind as list the fault codes and the dates they were read and I'll get someone here to diagnose the faults?

You can decide to resolve the situation independently of the garage but choose not to. Do you like the stress and anguish doing it the way you are and getting nowhere? I've noticed before the typically British attitude of "I know my rights" and the banging their head against their wall (i think that's the right expression) instead of just sorting a problem in a quick and simple way.


----------



## Mattskii

BodgieMcBodge said:


> No no no. We do technical investigations and reports, every statement has to have supporting evidence. ie. This car has a fault, evidence. here is the fault code read by this garage on 27th May 2015 and here is the explanation of that fault code. This car has another fault, evidence, here is the fault code read by that garage on 30 May 2015 and here is the explanation of that fault code. What doesn't scan is " This car has a fault I've been driving it for two weeks with my umbrella jammed under the seat and the garage are sh*t". If you are going to seriously complain about your garage you will need to provide evidence for every statement otherwise each unsubstantiated point will be ignored by whoever is adjudicating the matter. Maybe you would be so kind as list the fault codes and the dates they were read and I'll get someone here to diagnose the faults?
> 
> You can decide to resolve the situation independently of the garage but choose not to. Do you like the stress and anguish doing it the way you are and getting nowhere? I've noticed before the typically British attitude of "I know my rights" and the banging their head against their wall (i think that's the right expression) instead of just sorting a problem in a quick and simple way.


If you would like to pay for me to resolve the problem in a quick and simple way that would be lovely. I purchased a newish car with a guarantee in the hopes of avoiding such expenses. Unlike most on here, I do not have any income. No pension, no job, no social security, no bonds no ISAS no savings plans, no nothing, not one cent. Why should I have to pay? You can explain a lot of stuff about evidence, but you can't explain why I should have to pay? 

Yes, you are totally correct - I could go to my nearest dealer and pay to have it repaired. But why should I? 

You seem to think that it is wrong to expect people to do the right thing, and right for me to pay for things I should not have to pay for. 

And then you tell us how mixed up WE are banging our heads on a wall. Well, at least we are willing to stand up for what is right, rather than just roll over and pay out more money to the already demonstrably dishonest dealership. 

Perhaps you can afford to just pay for your problems to go away. Lucky you! Some of us are not so lucky. 

I have a car, under grantee, sold with a fault. Explain again why I should pay to fix it.


----------



## BodgieMcBodge

Head / wall interface scenario

1st. You think your car has a problem (no fault code supplied) you take it for repair
2nd You think your car has the same problem (no fault code supplied) you take it for repair
3rd You think your car has the same problem (no fault code supplied) you take it for repair
4th You think your car has the same problem (no fault code supplied) you take it for repair
5th You think your car has the same problem (no fault code supplied) you take it for repair 
6? You think your car has the same problem (no fault code supplied) you take it for repair

choose

7a. You think your car has the same problem (no fault code supplied) you take it for repair and repeat the loop ad infinitum

or 

7b. resolve the situation independently of the garage and continue your life


----------



## Mattskii

BodgieMcBodge said:


> Head / wall interface scenario
> 
> 1st. You think your car has a problem (no fault code supplied) you take it for repair
> 2nd You think your car has the same problem (no fault code supplied) you take it for repair
> 3rd You think your car has the same problem (no fault code supplied) you take it for repair
> 4th You think your car has the same problem (no fault code supplied) you take it for repair
> 5th You think your car has the same problem (no fault code supplied) you take it for repair
> 6? You think your car has the same problem (no fault code supplied) you take it for repair
> 
> choose
> 
> 7a. You think your car has the same problem (no fault code supplied) you take it for repair and repeat the loop ad infinitum
> 
> or
> 
> 7b. resolve the situation independently of the garage and continue your life


"You think the car has the same problem"

3 times in a row I move the chair the light came on. 3 times the exact same thing. Now, if you don't see that this is the same problem, the only brick wall involved in this scenario is talking to you! 

You are still refusing to exp-lain why I should pay for an existing fault on a car under guarantee. Presumably because you can't. There is no good reason I should pay. Other than my own convenience, and I for one can not afford it. You might be able to, lucky you! I can't afford to pay for stuff which I should not have to pay for just for my own convenience. Life is not that kind I am afraid. I instead have to fight for people to do the right thing and bang my head against their - and your - mad walls! 

Care to donate to the cost? I'll take your advice. Otherwise wake up man!


----------



## Mattskii

Just a quick update.

They replaced the dodgy part (They say they did) and they updated the software on the system too. They had it for 10 days. It failed again after 4 days driving. 

They obviously can't fix this, and my paying them to fix it is pretty certainly not going to resolve it either. If they could fix it, I think they would have by now. They seem as fed up as I am. 

Plan B:

I am negotiating with them for a replacement car. They only really have one that is suitable. (Price, size etc) As you can imagine, they are refusing to give me anywhere near a reasonable deal on upgrade price. 

So.... I went in to my local garage, and they are offering about the same price in part exchange for my old car as the garage in question are, proving they are not keeping the promise made when we started this line of thought - that they would price my car and its replacement in such a way as to reflect the year long troubles, the fact they can't repair it, etc etc.

What I do not want to do is try to blackmail them, it is not my way of getting things done.

However, there must be some leverage in my options to A - fill in their complaints book, and B - publish their name on the internet.

Any one out there wise enough with words to advise me on how to approach this? 

TBH I am almost at that point where I will actually pay more for a car with a different garage rather than give these monkeys any further business. But sadly I must work within my financial restraints, so I would much rather get a better deal out of the current lot. Any and all constructive help most certainly welcome. Negotiating is not one of my strong points!


----------



## travelling-man

My attitude would be that if they've turned you over on one car, they'll turn you over again on a second deal........ in other words, go elsewhere even if it costs you more but also fill in the complaints book AND publish their name on the internet at every opportunity so you can name and shame them to as many people as possible at every opportunity possible. 

Which is what I did with Seven Sport Automoveis in Condeixa a Nova near Coimbra and who have the site at SevenSport - Carros Usados, Automoveis Usados em Coimbra.


----------



## Mattskii

I fear you may be absolutely right Traveling-man

I just read your post to Lainey and she said "That's what I thought"

So - anyone able to recommend an alternative garage? Around Castanheira de Pera or within a reasonable drive thereof? I have made enquiries already at the Renault garage in Ansio, but they seem to have a nice selection of newer, and slightly more expensive cars. 

Suggestions welcomed.


----------



## travelling-man

The Renault dealer in Miranda gave me good service on my guarantee if that's any help.


----------



## Mattskii

travelling-man said:


> The Renault dealer in Miranda gave me good service on my guarantee if that's any help.


We went there previously and chose a nice car. Then they contacted us to say they were sadly unable to sell it as it apparently has outstanding loans on it! Decided to try elsewhere! 

Might pop back and see if they have anything interesting though. At least they were up front about the problems, didn't try to hide anything. 

Thanks mate.


----------



## oronero

Mattskii said:


> Suggestions welcomed.


Consider getting yourself a classic car, you should be able to get something nice which can be a pleasure to drive without the modern electronics which can be problematic.

Classic cars or those that are over 30 years old, which have free road fund licence means anything pre 1985...this covers Jaguar XJ6, Rover 3500SE, Mercedes SEC etc.

Yes they are big cars, a little thirsty but what comfort, reliability (certainly with that era of Mercedes,) though due to Portuguese climates and road conditions a lot less rust than they would have in the UK.

I am unaware of your budget but take a look at these to start with, plus little if any depreciation !

Mercedes-Benz 190 E 2.3 16 - Cosworth, Gasolina, 14.900 â‚¬ - Auto SAPO

Mercedes-Benz 240 D, Diesel, 2.750 â‚¬ - Auto SAPO

http://http://auto.sapo.pt/Carros/Citroen-Outro-AMI-8-SPECIAL-1724574.aspx

Porsche 924 2000, Gasolina, 5.000 â‚¬ - Auto SAPO

Alfa Romeo Sprint Alfasud Sprint Veloce 1.5 Quadrifoglio Verde Sport - Auto SAPO

BMW SÃ©rie 6 633 csi, Gasolina, 13.900 â‚¬ - Auto SAPO

Saab 900 GLS, Gasolina, 3.400 â‚¬ - Auto SAPO

Triumph TR3 TR3, Gasolina, 34.000 â‚¬ - Auto SAPO

Jaguar Daimler Sovereign 4.2, Gasolina, 9.800 â‚¬ - Auto SAPO


----------



## travelling-man

Damn but that TR3 is fabulous!! 

And Matt, I've just found out that FdV has a good classic car club as well.


----------



## Mattskii

Thanks for the links! 

I'd be on to the Jag in a heartbeat! lol Lovely car. But alas my wife would heave my guts for garters! lol Any way - we would rather go for the small fuel efficient option. 

I wonder if the FdV classic car club would let a classic motorhome in?


----------



## oronero

Mattskii said:


> I'd be on to the Jag in a heartbeat! lol Lovely car. But alas my wife would heave my guts for garters! lol
> 
> I wonder if the FdV classic car club would let a classic motorhome in?


Not that I want to get you in trouble but do you mean something like these? 

Volkswagen California Westfalia 21 KASTENWAGEN, Gasolina, 18.500 â‚¬ - Auto SAPO

Volkswagen Transporter 70 VERSIONE XO AD AAB 20L3, Diesel, 20.000 â‚¬ - Auto SAPO


----------



## Mattskii

I was thinking more like my old Mercedes Autotrail - 25 years old this year.


----------



## oronero

A friend of mine has this classic coach built Mercedes, slow but so comfortable once you get to your destination.


----------



## Mattskii

I have had enough of these people. I am sending them the following message this afternoon. We will see. If it costs me more to go elsewhere, on principle alone it will be well worth it. 

Fed up, I am! Get angry, I will! 

"Hi S,

I am concerned that our efforts to resolve the problems with my car are not going anywhere.

After 10 months you are still unable to repair my car, and you refuse to replace it.

I have tried to break the deadlock by offering to share the cost of replacement by trading my old car in with you at a preferential rate and/or with some discount on the replacement car. You indicated that you were happy with this arrangement.

The only suitable equivalent replacement car in the right price range which you can offer is the Mitsubishi I looked at. This car has several faults on it already, and you have not yet advised if they can be fully repaired. It is certainly not acceptable given our history, to expect me to agree to the purchase before you complete those repairs.

I have therefore been in contact with various local garages and asked them to quote me a trade in price for a suitable equivalent replacement. And I find that they are offering me a better deal than you are.

I am very upset and disappointed, that you are not adhering to the agreement that we made. We agreed that the prices you offered me would be reflective of the problems we have had over the last 10 months. It seems however, that the prices you quote are a reflection only of your attempts to pass all of the cost of the replacement on to me, and this is entirely unacceptable.

I am a member of some online forums dedicated to expatriates living in Portugal, and I have relayed this entire sad story there. I needed to ask people with more experience here if there were any other way I may be able to resolve these issues with you. They have given me 2 pieces of advice.

Firstly, they have asked me to name your company so as to warn others of these problems. They all feel, as I do, that I am not being treated well, and they feel, as I do, that we should warn other potential customers of the problems of dealing with your company. I have so far refused to do this, telling them that until we get to the end of the story we don't know what the outcome will be. Well, I fear we may be reaching the end of the story. And of course, it is up to you how it ends.

I also have a Portuguese friend who is currently detailing the entire episode in Portuguese so that I may make an entry in your complaints book.

It saddens me greatly that it has come to this, but I feel your company has let me down. As far as I am concerned you have sold me a car with a fault on it, and you have been either unable or unwilling to repair it. You will not replace it as you should, nor will you price a trade in vehicle in such a way as to share the cost of replacement, despite my very kind (and actually unnecessary) offer to do that.

Where does this leave us S? Is the story really at an end, or do we have one last chance to resolve this to everyone's satisfaction? I look forward to hearing from you with your thoughts.

Regards"


----------



## travelling-man

Matt,

You can write in the complaints book in English. - No need to do it Portuguese.


----------



## oronero

Just to clarify things, this car that has been the cause of much stress and anxiety, was it purchased new and if not how old was it and what sort of mileage was it displaying?

Furthermore is the dealer that you bought the car from the franchised dealer for that make?


----------



## Mattskii

oronero said:


> Just to clarify things, this car that has been the cause of much stress and anxiety, was it purchased new and if not how old was it and what sort of mileage was it displaying?
> 
> Furthermore is the dealer that you bought the car from the franchised dealer for that make?


They are a large franchise dealer, but not for my make of car. 

The car is an 09 plate, purchased with 36,000 km on the clock, every inch was in as new condition as far as I could tell. 1 year guarantee, purchased 10 months ago. These problems started within 1 month of the purchase and are yet to be resolved.


----------



## travelling-man

As I see it, the price, age & mileage are all irrelevant. If the car comes with a 12 month guarantee, it comes with a 12 month guarantee.


----------



## oronero

If the only issue with the car is the warning light/fault code, then why not get that fault sorted at the official franchised dealer for that make of car, the cost of the repair would then be presented to the garage that sold you the car for reimbursement.

My thinking behind this is that with that fault finally fixed then you should have a number of years of use from said vehicle, the depreciation in value will seem insignificant over a period of several years as you will get your money's worth from the car.

Much better than potentially starting the whole process again and taking the chance that a similar scenario takes place with a different vehicle.

What make of car is it that is suffering this fault?


----------



## Mattskii

oronero said:


> If the only issue with the car is the warning light/fault code, then why not get that fault sorted at the official franchised dealer for that make of car, the cost of the repair would then be presented to the garage that sold you the car for reimbursement.
> 
> My thinking behind this is that with that fault finally fixed then you should have a number of years of use from said vehicle, the depreciation in value will seem insignificant over a period of several years as you will get your money's worth from the car.
> 
> Much better than potentially starting the whole process again and taking the chance that a similar scenario takes place with a different vehicle.
> 
> What make of car is it that is suffering this fault?


It's an Opel.


There are two problems with your idea. Firstly, we both know they will never pay that bill.

Secondly, If this garage have failed to fix it after 5, 6 attempts, including, I am told, replacing the bit under the seat and updating the software (They had it over a week while a 'specialist' came in to work on it) then what is it going to take to fix it? Replace the entire air bag/seat belt tensioner system? Be cheaper to upgrade. 

I don't have any confidence in this any more. What if the Opel garage 'fix' it and it malfunctions again after a week like it has every other time it has been 'fixed'?

Nope. End of the line I'm afraid. I have had enough.


----------



## oronero

Mattskii said:


> It's an Opel.


That's a Vauxhall in drag! 

You'd have thought that they would be rather straightforward to fix, I thought that you were going to say that the manufacturer was one of these new kids on the block from China or Korea!

Generally the Japanese have the most reliable vehicles, though I hear that Toyota are having issues at the moment... perhaps you need to go native?


----------



## BodgieMcBodge

Mattskii said:


> I have had enough of these people. I am sending them the following message this afternoon. We will see. If it costs me more to go elsewhere, on principle alone it will be well worth it.
> 
> Fed up, I am! Get angry, I will!
> 
> "Hi S,
> 
> I am concerned that our efforts to resolve the problems with my car are not going anywhere.
> 
> After 10 months you are still unable to repair my car, and you refuse to replace it.
> 
> I have tried to break the deadlock by offering to share the cost of replacement by trading my old car in with you at a preferential rate and/or with some discount on the replacement car. You indicated that you were happy with this arrangement.
> 
> The only suitable equivalent replacement car in the right price range which you can offer is the Mitsubishi I looked at. This car has several faults on it already, and you have not yet advised if they can be fully repaired. It is certainly not acceptable given our history, to expect me to agree to the purchase before you complete those repairs.
> 
> I have therefore been in contact with various local garages and asked them to quote me a trade in price for a suitable equivalent replacement. And I find that they are offering me a better deal than you are.
> 
> I am very upset and disappointed, that you are not adhering to the agreement that we made. We agreed that the prices you offered me would be reflective of the problems we have had over the last 10 months. It seems however, that the prices you quote are a reflection only of your attempts to pass all of the cost of the replacement on to me, and this is entirely unacceptable.
> 
> I am a member of some online forums dedicated to expatriates living in Portugal, and I have relayed this entire sad story there. I needed to ask people with more experience here if there were any other way I may be able to resolve these issues with you. They have given me 2 pieces of advice.
> 
> Firstly, they have asked me to name your company so as to warn others of these problems. *They all feel, as* I do, that I am not being treated well, and they feel, as I do, that we should warn other potential customers of the problems of dealing with your company. I have so far refused to do this, telling them that until we get to the end of the story we don't know what the outcome will be. Well, I fear we may be reaching the end of the story. And of course, it is up to you how it ends.
> 
> I also have a Portuguese friend who is currently detailing the entire episode in Portuguese so that I may make an entry in your complaints book.
> 
> It saddens me greatly that it has come to this, but I feel your company has let me down. As far as I am concerned you have sold me a car with a fault on it, and you have been either unable or unwilling to repair it. You will not replace it as you should, nor will you price a trade in vehicle in such a way as to share the cost of replacement, despite my very kind (and actually unnecessary) offer to do that.
> 
> Where does this leave us S? Is the story really at an end, or do we have one last chance to resolve this to everyone's satisfaction? I look forward to hearing from you with your thoughts.
> 
> Regards"




If you are writing about this forum then at least get if right if you are going to complain, this FORUM is dedicated to expats , ence the name "expatforum" NOT dedicated to expats in Portugal also please note I have not been consulted nor do i suspect have the vast majority of the members of this forum so that your "all" is in reality a "small minority of forum members"


----------



## Mattskii

BodgieMcBodge said:


> If you are writing about this forum then at least get if right if you are going to complain, this FORUM is dedicated to expats , ence the name "expatforum" NOT dedicated to expats in Portugal also please note I have not been consulted nor do i suspect have the vast majority of the members of this forum so that your "all" is in reality a "small minority of forum members"


I am so pleased you turned up to nit pick. I was just sitting here thinking to my self, "What I really need now is some pedantic input from an internet troll." 

So thanks for that, just what I needed. Made my whole day!


----------



## Mattskii

travelling-man said:


> Matt,
> 
> You can write in the complaints book in English. - No need to do it Portuguese.




Can I do this online, or do I have to go there? 

(They have, like a child, withdrawn all communication. Blanking me totally. Go figure!)


----------



## travelling-man

No....... you need to go to the dealership and write it all into the book while you're there.


----------



## BodgieMcBodge

If you have never fill in a Livro de Reclamações before then you need to be aware it is for a formal written complaint and the forms are in triplicate. You need to provide all your personal details and *the dates and times and facts of the complaint*, the garage will witness and sign the form as well. The investigation organization will only decide upon reviewing all the evidence so if you write anything which cannot be supported by evidence (such as the contents of unrecorded conversations) it will be at best be ignored and possibly make the seem like a winge rather then a serious complaint. You and the other party should get the decision and"actions to be taken" in a couple of weeks.


----------



## travelling-man

They took several months to review AND UPHOLD my complaint against Seven Sport Automoveis in Condeixa A Nova, Coimbra who have their website at www,sevensport.net


----------



## BodgieMcBodge

You and the other party should get the decision and"actions to be taken" in a couple of weeks which may say further investigation is required before a final decision is made. You should be able to get the name of the investigation organization as there are various ones and if the shop refuse access to their Livro de Reclamações then you can call the police - it is that serious.


----------



## JohnBoy

Sorry Matt but it has to be done on the premises. I had a problem with a company that made sales in the home but then told me that I had to go either to Lisbon (two hours) or Aveiro (75 minutes) just to write in the book.


----------



## Mattskii

OK, Thanks everyone. 


Can I write it up here at home on the computer, print it out, and then put the printout in the book, or would I have to then copy everything off my printout into the book by hand? 

I have a rather bad case of dyslexia, and without a computer to correct spelling, grammar and punctuation etc, and with my almost indecipherable hand writing I am barely legible.


----------



## travelling-man

'Fraid it has to be handwritten.


----------



## BodgieMcBodge

It is usually a triplicate form so needs to be pen written to produce the copies. Someone needs to write it but you only need to sign, you/they may copy from written/printed notes which is a good idea anyway so as to get it clear and concise.


----------



## Mattskii

Thanks guys. I have not hand written for years. This is going to be interesting. lol!! 

I'll do it all on the computer so that I get the dates and other facts correct. And then copy it out by hand. That part alone could take half an afternoon!!  Eeek! 

TBH I would much rather they just sold me the damn Mitsubishi! I hate all this animosity.


----------



## Mattskii

*A Happy Ending*

Well, to finish off the story.....

The garage and I finally agreed on a good price for a reasonable alternative to replace the Opel. 

To be fair to the garage, after all my moaning, I was thinking about what they did do:

They took the car in and attempted to repair it 6 or 7 times. The last time they kept it a week while a specialist worked on it. Apparently. 

On the last three occasions they lent me, free of charge, a good replacement car.

They gave me a very good price on the Opel when I traded it in with them, more than any other garage would have offered by some margin. (I did the research lol) They also discounted the replacement. 

So they did work hard to resolve the problem. On the down side I am out of pocket by the best part of €1.5k! Now, before dodgy Bodgie points it out, I'll say it lol! It would have been cheaper to just take the car to Opel and have them fix it. Probably. But this way I feel that I have been compensated for almost a year of problems. I have upgraded to the lovely 2006 Mitsubishi Colt D-iD - and we like it. It has way more power so deals easily with the hills around here. It's a nicer car, has a bit more space etc - Plus Road tax is just €20.87 per year!  

Would I recommend the garage? I don't know, there are still things that niggle at me. Like being charged €200 to do the transfer when it costs €65. Or having to wait 48 hours for a bank transfer to clear, when they clear in 24. I think the important question is would I warn people away from them? Probably not. If you are willing to be patient and work at their slow pace the problem will be resolved. I think they did their best in their slow way, they certainly didn't renege on any deals or try to get out of helping me. And any way, not all second hand cars have problems. I just got unlucky. What I would warn you not to do is buy an Opel. It was a very low quality vehicle. But that is a different thread!


----------



## oronero

So shall I tell my uncle to sell the donkey to the gypsy's for salami?


----------

