# help! Terrified here!



## deborahc9133

:help:

I am getting closer to moving to Mexico and I am starting to have 2nd thoughts. I have worked in State government for 26 years and will have a pitiful retirement of $2300 a month, but full medical coverage! In order to maintain my California lifestyle, I will have to work 12 more years - 70 years old! 

I know that I could live comfortably on that amount, but I fear giving up my relatively well paying gov job. I will be going with my husband, a mexican native/us citizen. We already have 7 acres of land in Colima, and I have an MA in TESOL. 

My biggest fear is that should I need to come back to the USA, I will be poor in my own country - after a lifetime of WORK!!! terrible!

Did anyone else have cold feet? Am I totally unreasonble? My heart says go but my logical head says NO!!! HELP!!!!!!


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## RVGRINGO

Your pitiful retirement will qualify you for Residente Temporal, on your own, or you can come as a familial, and then you will transition to Residente Permanente in 4 years, or only two as a spouse of a national, without further need for financial proofs. Two of us live rather comfortably on a smaller amount, in a home we own with three hungry dogs. Moving back to the USA would be a frightening thought; but, we do not think of doing it. Mexico is home and we are now Residente Permanente status.
What can I say? You have to decide for yourself. So, married, single or divorced, you can do it. You have the opportunity, with INM permission prior to Permanente, to work as a teacher, and you already have land. Is it just a little encouragement that you need? I can only tell you that the time from 60 to almost 76 has zipped by rather quickly! I would not hesitate.


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## tepetapan

deborahc9133 said:


> :help:
> 
> I am getting closer to moving to Mexico and I am starting to have 2nd thoughts. I have worked in State government for 26 years and will have a pitiful retirement of $2300 a month, but full medical coverage! In order to maintain my California lifestyle, I will have to work 12 more years - 70 years old!
> 
> I know that I could live comfortably on that amount, but I fear giving up my relatively well paying gov job. I will be going with my husband, a mexican native/us citizen. We already have 7 acres of land in Colima, and I have an MA in TESOL.
> 
> My biggest fear is that should I need to come back to the USA, I will be poor in my own country - after a lifetime of WORK!!! terrible!
> 
> Did anyone else have cold feet? Am I totally unreasonble? My heart says go but my logical head says NO!!! HELP!!!!!!


 $2300 a month is not a bad amount, plus your husband may be able to collect SS. What ever, my personal feelings are to retire ASAP. I have known too many people who said "next year" and never enjoyed a month of retirement before they fell over dead. 
Being afraid of the unknown is human nature, follow your heart and enjoy life while you can.


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## Longford

Shouting crys of help is a bit over the top, IMO, but I'll suggest you stay in the USA ... given your level of upset. You're not going to adjust well, living in Mexico ... I'm thinking.


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## deborahc9133

I am not upset. Just being cautious. I have been to Mexico many, many, many times over the years with my husband (who is from Colima) so I already feel comforable there without a doubt and my Spanish is decent - he speaks to me only in Spanish. I would no problem at all adjusting. This is a major life decision, and I have made many over the years. I guess it is just last minute doubts like anything else.


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## deborahc9133

Thanks for the feedback and the encouragement. I, too, know many people who say "just one more year" then get sick or die........ thanks for the encouragement. Just wanted to bounce it off of a few people.


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## sparks

Where in Colima? If it's just property you'll have to build a house and they always cost more than you think


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## deborahc9133

La Caja near Comala


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## Isla Verde

deborahc9133 said:


> I am not upset. Just being cautious. I have been to Mexico many, many, many times over the years with my husband (who is from Colima) so I already feel comforable there without a doubt and my Spanish is decent - he speaks to me only in Spanish. I would no problem at all adjusting. This is a major life decision, and I have made many over the years. I guess it is just last minute doubts like anything else.


You've got to admit that the title of your thread with the word "terrified" in it could lead us to think that the idea of moving to Mexico has you frightened. Glad to hear that you're in a more positive frame of mind than that.


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## deborahc9133

Oh no!! !!!! It is not MEXICO that scares me, not at all! It is making the life change that scares me, even if it were moving anywhere! I said that all wrong. I have no fear of Mexico at all; my fear is staying in the US actually. No, I know from my years of going to Mexico that the country is not what I fear as I love Mexico. It is just the fear of making a big decision - like buying a house, having a baby, getting married/divorced etc. Sorry I caused an incorrect reaction.


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## Isla Verde

deborahc9133 said:


> Oh no!! !!!! It is not MEXICO that scares me, not at all! It is making the life change that scares me, even if it were moving anywhere! I said that all wrong. I have no fear of Mexico at all; my fear is staying in the US actually. No, I know from my years of going to Mexico that the country is not what I fear as I love Mexico. It is just the fear of making a big decision - like buying a house, having a baby, getting married/divorced etc. Sorry I caused an incorrect reaction.


No need to apologize. Big decisions, like moving to Mexico permanently, are scary, and it's good to recognize that. But in the end you need to take a deep breath, jump in the deep end of the pool, and trust that everything will turn out just fine and dandy.


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## MJB5293

deborahc9133 said:


> I am not upset. Just being cautious. I have been to Mexico many, many, many times over the years with my husband (who is from Colima) so I already feel comforable there without a doubt and my Spanish is decent - he speaks to me only in Spanish. I would no problem at all adjusting. This is a major life decision, and I have made many over the years. I guess it is just last minute doubts like anything else.


come and enjoy you will talk about California for a year and then you will talk about your great life in Mexico


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## citlali

Once you move out of California and the inflated prices , if you retire most people cannot afford to go back but why go back ? There are many nice places to live in so why worry about what you left behind. You can always go back to the States, maybe not in the same area in California but even California has areas that are not totally crazy pricewise.
We could not afford to live in the same place but it was too hilly anyways so we would have looked for another place so just as well be in Mexico where you can have a new aventure.
Retiring here was for us the best thing we did , we got different interests , new friends, new experiences and it helped us with this transition in life. Now we are settled her and are totally happy, you just have to look forwards to a new experience and forget what you had,


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## AlanMexicali

deborahc9133 said:


> Oh no!! !!!! It is not MEXICO that scares me, not at all! It is making the life change that scares me, even if it were moving anywhere! I said that all wrong. I have no fear of Mexico at all; my fear is staying in the US actually. No, I know from my years of going to Mexico that the country is not what I fear as I love Mexico. It is just the fear of making a big decision - like buying a house, having a baby, getting married/divorced etc. Sorry I caused an incorrect reaction.


When I retired early at 58 I went through a period of feeling guilty and unuseful but as time went on found other interests and now do not regret getting out of Calif. but do maintain a condo near downtown San Diego which is empty most of the time the last few years. Luckily the prices of real estate are still low enough there to buy into a condo. I don´t regret moving and have a very active social life here. 

You having a Mexican husband and communicative Spanish have a huge advantage. I wouldn´t worry too much once you get used to not working.


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## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> ...I wouldn´t worry too much once you get used to not working.


Getting used to not working was the easiest part of the move to Mexico for me!


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## citlali

I retired at 55 and I had not problems with not working either,I finally had time to do the things I could not do before. I think it is a little different for women as most of us had to do 2 jobs so doing only one was a piece of cake.


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## makaloco

My only regret about retiring at 60 was that I couldn't afford to do it at 50. Or 40. I didn't hate work, but I hated *having* to work.


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## mickisue1

At 62, I am looking longingly at retiring to Italy and MX. But with a husband who's 53, it'll be at least a couple of years, even if my retirement could support us both. In MX, it could, barely, and there'd be no travelling to IT to see the grandchild.

So, waiting is what I do.

I think that in the US, we are so used to the gloom and doom of rising prices, esp for healthcare, that we forget that the civilized world takes better care of the health of its citizens than the US.

Unless, of course, you can afford to pay for it in the US.


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## deborahc9133

Thanks everyone for the encouraging words as I sit in a cubicle in a state government building in downtown Sacramento. I work with people who are in their 30s and I don't feel that I fit in anymore. At 58, I still feel very young, but I really don't want to work all day around people that are my daughters age! I know from my many times in Mexico that I will find a group of friends my age. Now, everyone is so busy working that we just go home and shut the door until the next day. What a life! Enough1


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## Longford

deborahc9133 said:


> I know from my many times in Mexico that I will find a group of friends my age.


If you're not finding them at home, it's not likely you will find them in Mexico. The median age in the USA is 37.1 years. In Mexico it's 27.4 years. I think the age _thing_ is more about you, than _them_. The grass isn't always greener, on the other side.


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## Isla Verde

Longford said:


> If you're not finding them at home, it's not likely you will find them in Mexico. The median age in the USA is 37.1 years. In Mexico it's 27.4 years. I think the age _thing_ is more about you, than _them_. The grass isn't always greener, on the other side.


Remember, Longford, no personal criticisms of other posters. Deborah was commenting on the age of her co-workers, not on the median age of everyone in the US. In Mexico she won't be working, and if she chooses her new home correctly, why shouldn't she be able to make new friends here?


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## Longford

Isla Verde said:


> Remember, Longford, no personal criticisms of other posters. Deborah was commenting on the age of her co-workers, not on the median age of everyone in the US. In Mexico she won't be working, and if she chooses her new home correctly, why shouldn't she be able to make new friends here?


I re-read the comments I responded to ... and believe my response is pertenent to what was written. That you interpret the discussion differently .. as a personal criticisim ... well, I think you've misread what's being written.  

So that there's no confusion on the intent of my comment(s) on this topic, they're not intended to be "personal criticisms" and if anyone has interpreted them as such ... I offer an apology. Thanks.


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## Isla Verde

Longford said:


> I re-read the comments I responded to ... and believe my response is pertenent to what was written. That you interpret the discussion differently .. as a personal criticisim ... well, I think you've misread what's being written.
> 
> So that there's no confusion on the intent of my comment(s) on this topic, they're not intended to be "personal criticisms" and if anyone has interpreted them as such ... I offer an apology. Thanks.


Apology accepted  .


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## deborahc9133

Thanks for Isla Verde for that. I did take it as a criticism. I am hoping that I will make a small group of friends of people that are no longer working that are my age. I feel that Mexico is a better environemnt for this than the US. I am not an inexperienced or naive - I have been coming to Mexico for 30 years with my mexican born/US citizen husband. I have hundreds of Mexican relatives. On my last trip to Manzanillo last month, I did meet a group of Canadian women that hang out together - that is what I am looking for. A small group of pals my age that have alot of free time. I sometimes a sense an odd reaction on this site - some sort of resentment that we are coming there as ex-pats. I can't quite put my finger on it and makes me not want to put myself out there anymore.


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## Isla Verde

deborahc9133 said:


> Thanks for Isla Verde for that. I did take it as a criticism. I am hoping that I will make a small group of friends of people that are no longer working that are my age. I feel that Mexico is a better environemnt for this than the US. I am not an inexperienced or naive - I have been coming to Mexico for 30 years with my mexican born/US citizen husband. I have hundreds of Mexican relatives. On my last trip to Manzanillo last month, I did meet a group of Canadian women that hang out together - that is what I am looking for. A small group of pals my age that have alot of free time. I sometimes a sense an odd reaction on this site - some sort of resentment that we are coming there as ex-pats. I can't quite put my finger on it and makes me not want to put myself out there anymore.


I'm sorry that you feel that some posters have been less than welcoming to you. Keep in mind that not everyone who posts here lives in Mexico, so please keep that in mind when reading reactions to your comments. Since you're moving here with your husband, I expect that quite a lot of your time will be spent with his family, and hopefully some of his female relatives will become good friends as well as "family".


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## Guategringo

deborahc9133 said:


> Thanks for Isla Verde for that. I did take it as a criticism. I am hoping that I will make a small group of friends of people that are no longer working that are my age. I feel that Mexico is a better environemnt for this than the US. I am not an inexperienced or naive - I have been coming to Mexico for 30 years with my mexican born/US citizen husband. I have hundreds of Mexican relatives. On my last trip to Manzanillo last month, I did meet a group of Canadian women that hang out together - that is what I am looking for. A small group of pals my age that have alot of free time. I sometimes a sense an odd reaction on this site - some sort of resentment that we are coming there as ex-pats. I can't quite put my finger on it and makes me not want to put myself out there anymore.


Deborah join the crowd, I felt the same way as you do when I first started posting on the site. However, for every person who critcizes you or speaks negatively of your ideas or opinions, there are 10 who will support you and or offer you GREAT ideas.
I am not sure why people act that way on this site. Some resent the fact you are either on your way or already in Mexico, while they are not. Others might feel that another expat will infringe on thier privacy or feel Mexico is their own hideaway. I honestly feel its is big enough for the million plus expats and the 115 million Mexicans, a few more will not make any difference.

I thought the forum was to help those already here and those planning to live here or considering it. Responses often times upset people so they simply find another forum and bad mouth this one. Even though there is an endless amount of good information that can be found on this site, there is a great deal of ego and "I know more than you do" that you have to weed through and I am sure I have been guilty of that as well.

But don't let that bother you. Migrate to posters who help the most some of whom are Hound Dog, RVGringo, Isla Verde, Tundra Green, Mickisue, citali and many others. Even some that I mentioned can at times be rough around the edge. But I will not mention any names ruff, ruff!


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## Detailman

Guategringo said:


> But don't let that bother you. Migrate to posters who help the most some of whom are Hound Dog, RVGringo, Isla Verde, Tundra Green, Mickisue, citali and many others. Even some that I mentioned can at times be rough around the edge. *But I will not mention any names ruff, ruff!*


Priceless!! :clap2::clap2:

That's what I call a sense of humour without offending anyone!


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## Isla Verde

Guategringo said:


> But don't let that bother you. Migrate to posters who help the most some of whom are Hound Dog, RVGringo, Isla Verde, Tundra Green, Mickisue, citali and many others. Even some that I mentioned can at times be rough around the edge. But I will not mention any names ruff, ruff!


Mmm, what may seem to be "rough around the edges" to one person may seem to be "telling it like it is" to another.


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## mickisue1

Indeed.

I live, currently, in MN, land of the passive-aggressive. When I worked, in my late 30's, at an insurance company, I had coworkers who COULD NOT deal with calls from the east coast; "They're so rude! They yell at you!" was the complaint.

Maybe because I spent my first two years of life there, or maybe because I LIKE people being forthright, but I enjoyed hearing EXACTLY what someone's issue was in the first three sentences, so that I could set about solving it, rather than fishing it out of them.

I'd tell my coworkers that it was ok; the east coasters yelled, then when they found out that it wasn't your fault, personally, and that you would help them, they apologized.

Different strokes, and all that.


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## OnTheRoadToMexico

deborahc9133 said:


> My biggest fear is that should I need to come back to the USA, I will be poor in my own country - after a lifetime of WORK!!! terrible!


Just my two cents, but... if you try to live in most places in the US (far more boring than Mexico) on retirement income, you WILL be poor in your own country.

You wouldn't have to leave the country and come back in order to experience that. So unless you want to work forever, and never retire, I vote for almost ANYWHERE in Latin America over staying the the US.

At least in Latin America old farts are still treated with some respect.


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## OnTheRoadToMexico

Longford said:


> If you're not finding them at home, it's not likely you will find them in Mexico. The median age in the USA is 37.1 years. In Mexico it's 27.4 years. I think the age _thing_ is more about you, than _them_. The grass isn't always greener, on the other side.


Methinks Longford is doing everything he can to dissuade any more gringos from invading Mexico 

Or maybe he's just proving to you the old saying, "Whether you think you can or you can't, you're right."


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## OnTheRoadToMexico

(Sorry, previous post timed out while I was trying to add): And at least in Latin America, there is quality healthcare that is actually affordable by mere mortals.

That one is what has me afraid to STAY in the US.


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## FHBOY

I've been well silent for along time here...and your initial post, coupled with the recent "news" out of the USA...has prompted me to add my cinco pesos.

Having just (relatively "just") taken the step you are considering, I will not lessen your apprehension: leaving the familiar to step into a palce out of your comfort zone. But you see, unlike Cortez and me, you have the chance to go back to the USA if you don't like it. You have the major componenet that scares a lot of seniors making this move...paid health care, as you've stated. You and your husband also own 7 acres in Colima, which is an asset you can bank if need be. 

I am more concerned about continuing to live in the USA. I have watched with horror 

- the Zimmerman case, (in essence saying, for whatever reasons that one person can initialize a confrontation, kill another person and not pay any penalty for it - the bare bones of the case: a man shot an unarmed boy and walked away...something about that one fact is very wrong no matter what the law or circumstances may have or have not been) 

- which with modified horror at the Spitzer/Weiner/Sanford et. al. farces (a decline in the moral views not of the perpetrators, but of the general public as to what to expect of the people who lead the USA), 

-the widening disparity between the haves and have nots - which used to be called the "middle class" (the CEO of McDonald makes $8.67 million/year, while a line employee at a McDonald makes $8.75/hour), 

- the declining infrastructure of my home (rail, roads, bridges, electrical grids, and now the internet)

- the stated position of the political system in which (see yesterday's New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/....html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20130724) the lunatic right (not the true Conservatives) have drawn a line in the sand saying the only thing they will agree with in spending is increasing the $$$ to the military industrial complex and now the "Keep Mexicans Out Industrial Complex) at the expense of the vast majority of "have nots" (see above) in the USA

- once again ignoring or laughing at the environmental problems caused by global warming or even the importation of oil laden sludge from Canada for the benefit of the Energy Company CEO's

I could go on, but the trees here are green, the temperatures, even now in the summer are moderate to temperate, the rain is refreshing and the people are very friendly.

You see, there are a great many reason to be anxious about making this "passage", but could it be possible that what is waiting on the other side of that door is a lot better than what is in your room right now? You will be leaving the familiar (although there is Walmart here, if you like that sort of thing), leaving family and long time friends, but life has to be an adventure, or else it is a stagnant tale.

Do I regret being Cortez? Some times when I can't hug my kids, but for so many other reason, this "leap of faith" I made seems right. Living day-to-day is pleasanter, the foibles of my home country are at arms length, and as RVGRINGO pointed out, with my Residente Permanente status, if I want to get back into a modified rat race to make a little money, I can.

Making this move will be less painful for you because of your husband, because of your investments here in Mexico, and I'd not worry about $2300 USD a month, plus your husband's income, you'll live a lot better than you can in LA.

BTW - if medical is you worry, this is not a third world country - the medical treatment and facilities rival the USA.

Make the leap, go through the looking glass, you'll be scared, but that, too will disappear.


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## citlali

You could take every negative point made about the US and find a similar case or cases in Mexico, no Mexico is not paradise and the US hell, Iit is different but humans are humans and there are problems everywhere. 
If you think the Zimmerman case is bad have you seem presumed guilty? Scandals amongst the rich not so much may be about sex but about corruption like tan ex governor of Chiapas pocketing the money destined for the health of the poor, disparity amongst the have and have not one the worst in Latin America and so on.
Do not expect Mexico to be paradise and since you speak Spanish you will discover that faster than those who do not. 
You will find that there are a lot of pluses for you here and you can always go back if you do not like it. The US is not far from here , at least you are not coming in from Tibet or other far away place and are not wondering if you can pay the passage or not.


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## RVGRINGO

My friend FHBOY has made several good points with his cinco centavos, but I must add my dos centavos to address your stated desire for folks your own age. Why is that important in Mexico? You must have noticed, on your visits, that age discrimination is much more a USA phenomenon than it is in Mexico, where even we old farts are respected and allowed to interact with others of any age. Even children do not fear us. So, my suggestion is to put the fears and misconceptions behind you and come on down. If you cannot do that, you will go back ..... probably alone. Only you can determine which way it will be. To pre-determine the outcome is not a good idea. Relax and enjoy!


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## citlali

Only if you do not have to work can you delight in the no age descrimination...have you ever looked at the employment offers in the paper??


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## mickisue1

As for the age thing...I have been self employed for 8 years, so take that into consideration in what I say.

But even in my 50's, I found that it wasn't so much how old you were that determined whether or not you *fit in* at a place of employment, but whether you were willing to interact with people at their level.

Did I get asked to join the 20 and 30 somethings for drinks after work? No, but I've never really been a drinks after work person, so it didn't bother me. I had a couple of close friends at my job, both about 10 years younger than I was, and for the rest, we got along fine.

I took a 5 day business trip with a young woman who was the same age as my daughter. We had a blast, because neither of us expected the other to become her best friend, we just wanted to do a good job and enjoy the California sunshine when it was 40F in MN in March.

I seek to be respected, but not just for my age, but for my willingness to be an engaged and engaging human being. It seems to me that that desire is recognized and appreciated universally; one reason why RVGringo is so well respected here.


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## AlanMexicali

I think FHBOY was alluding to the way older people are considered a threat to youngsters the last decade or more in the US, at least in California. Actually an older person is not welcome to come up to unknown to them children anymore where in Mexico they do not have this rule in place.


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## makaloco

RVGRINGO said:


> You must have noticed, on your visits, that age discrimination is much more a USA phenomenon than it is in Mexico, where even we old farts are respected and allowed to interact with others of any age. Even children do not fear us.


My first "date" in Mexico, at age 60+, was when my neighbor's 13-year-old decided to take me to Carnaval. My almost zero command of Spanish at the time didn't seem to bother him at all, and his family readily let him go alone with me. We walked the entire length of it and back, shared tacos el pastor and fried bananas, even rode on the Himalaya ride. I had a great time!


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## FHBOY

citlali said:


> You could take every negative point made about the US and find a similar case or cases in Mexico, no Mexico is not paradise and the US hell, Iit is different but humans are humans and there are problems everywhere.
> If you think the Zimmerman case is bad have you seem presumed guilty? Scandals amongst the rich not so much may be about sex but about corruption like tan ex governor of Chiapas pocketing the money destined for the health of the poor, disparity amongst the have and have not one the worst in Latin America and so on.
> Do not expect Mexico to be paradise and since you speak Spanish you will discover that faster than those who do not.
> You will find that there are a lot of pluses for you here and you can always go back if you do not like it. The US is not far from here , at least you are not coming in from Tibet or other far away place and are not wondering if you can pay the passage or not.


Citali, you are absolutely correct. If I could read Spanish, if I could understand the TV news then I am sure the corruption quotient could be about the same. But that is the glory of being a semi literate Anglo here, the troubles of Mexico are at an arms length, not because of distance, like the foibles of the USA, but because of lack of Spanish literacy. {Yep, haven't bit the apple from the Tree of Knowledge fully yet...)

I suppose after I am here for the next 20 years or so, I will be able to do both: get more literate in Spanish, and find things here in Mexico to be outraged about.

But here I am identified with and continue to love the place that nutured me for the last 63 years, the USA. And as I have stated too many time before, I cry for it because being away, being an expat, has shown me that what I took for granted as being the norm is in no way normal. (same argument can be used for Mexico, I suppose)

RV once again brings up a new valid point, and a new reason for the OP not to be terrified. Being "of a certain age" here means nothing, not only amongst the peers you associate with, but amongst the entire population. While not revered, as I am told it is in Eastern cultures, age is not a disability. To see and be with intergenerational families is a strange and wonderful thing to most USAers. Yes, I agree, as a person of my age, I do feel like a kid.

And that is another passage for the OP. Once you make that leap, once you throw off the age based person you are in the USA, you can become the young person, with the whole world ahead of you, that you once were...if that is your thing. It is strange to SWMBO and I that we are considered youngsters in our social world so far. And it is great!

And as to being old here, at least in our village there is no restrictions, on it. Yes, the Walmart has an old people's cashier line (we assiduously avoid it), but when you see...wel let me try it this way.

I was out to dinner with a group of friends the other night, and we got to talking about being of retirement age and the life we can/do live. One vocifirous commenter said that he is much more happy here and feels younger here, than if he had gone to a Centutry Village type place in the USA. THere, he says, people are living to die. Here, they are living to live. I know that Ajijic has been referred to as a retirement community...but from what I've experienced, this is what living after working your whole life is about and so unlike the Older Peoples Warehouses in the USA.

But I rant....

OP, overcome the fear, and take the leap. Allow yourself to do as you did when you were a kid, a little kid, when you had no fears, when you did try touching the hot stove...because you wanted to. Yes, you learned, but being here is like being a little kid all over again...you try and you learn. HEck, you've probably learned all you need to know about living in the USA, right? But when you take th leap, your mind will be challenged like it was when you were a kid, to exercise itself by learning once again...and this keeps you young.

ANd a part of learning, like wheny ou were a kid, is observing what others do and making value judgement on whether you'd like to do that, too. There is where the looking at the USA from the outside comes in. You (and I) lived in the forest and never saw the trees, from here, after your leap, you'll see the trees like yo never saw them before. Some are beautiful and are missed, others are rediculoues and better should be discarded...but when you are int he middle of the forest, you can't make that distinction.

Eleanor Roosevelt once said this: It is a plaque SWMBO and I have hanging in our living room:

The Encouraging Thing is that every time you meet a situation, 
though you may think at the time it is an impossibility
and you get through the tortures of the dammed, 
once you have met it and lived through it, 
you find that forever after you are freer 
than you ever were before.

If you can live through that you can live through anything. 
You gain strength, courage & confidence 
by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. 
You are able to say to yourself, 
"I lived through this horror. 
I can take the next thing that comes along."​


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## citlali

Yes I know the feeling,you just delivered a baby and you think "oh no there is no going back, my life has changed for ever. It is scary but life goes on and you will survive. You said you can teach so you probaly can get a job and ern money if the money part is scary to you and eventually slowly letting that go or not depending on what you need or want.

You can chose to work until you drop or make the jump and make the best of it.


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## JoanneR2

deborahc9133 said:


> :help:
> 
> I am getting closer to moving to Mexico and I am starting to have 2nd thoughts. I have worked in State government for 26 years and will have a pitiful retirement of $2300 a month, but full medical coverage! In order to maintain my California lifestyle, I will have to work 12 more years - 70 years old!
> 
> I know that I could live comfortably on that amount, but I fear giving up my relatively well paying gov job. I will be going with my husband, a mexican native/us citizen. We already have 7 acres of land in Colima, and I have an MA in TESOL.
> 
> My biggest fear is that should I need to come back to the USA, I will be poor in my own country - after a lifetime of WORK!!! terrible!
> 
> Did anyone else have cold feet? Am I totally unreasonble? My heart says go but my logical head says NO!!! HELP!!!!!!


Hi, if it is of any help... When deciding whether to come to Mexico or not my final factor in a long list of pros and cons was whether I would regret not doing it. In the end I decided that despite the fear, worry about leaving my, almost adult, children behind, lack of Spanish etc. I did not want to wake up in a couple of years thinking 'I really wish I had been brave enough to do that'. I haven't regretted it for a moment. Come on down, it's 
good here...


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## eagles100

What I've regretted most in life are the things I didn't do.
Mistakes I've made are experiences and then moved on.
I'd say go for it.


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## FHBOY

eagles100 said:


> What I've regretted most in life are the things I didn't do.
> Mistakes I've made are experiences and then moved on.
> I'd say go for it.


Eagles: Rainy season is good this year, looking forward to you jumping in with both feet, but I digress.

OP: I've lived with one small motto: I'd rather die regretting the things I've done, not the things I haven't.

Go for it.


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## deborahc9133

Thanks. I agree that life in the USA is rather boring and over-regulated. Don't do this, can't do that...... I am feeling very confident about making the move. Has anyone gotten social security yet? How difficult is it to get? is it direct deposit? Is it the same amount that is calculated on the annual statement? Do we pay US taxes on it? Thanks in advance.


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## Isla Verde

deborahc9133 said:


> Thanks. I agree that life in the USA is rather boring and over-regulated. Don't do this, can't do that...... I am feeling very confident about making the move. Has anyone gotten social security yet? How difficult is it to get? is it direct deposit? Is it the same amount that is calculated on the annual statement? Do we pay US taxes on it? Thanks in advance.


When you have to deal with the Mexican government bureaucracy, you'll understand what being over-regulated is all about!

I've been receiving Social Security payments since 2007, the year I moved to Mexico. My checks are automatically deposited in my Bank of America account, and I can make withdrawals in pesos from any Santander or Scotiabank ATMs in Mexico without paying any fees and at a good exchange rate. I receive the same amount as calculated on the annual statement. I don't believe we have to pay US taxes on it.


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## deborahc9133

Thanks! That just sounds way too easy. Another question. I am so fortunate to have 100% health care for life via my employer, the state of CA. Is bluecross/shield accepted? I also have delta dental and a vision service plan all at 100%. I know that health care is cheap there, but wonder about something major - e.g., surgery etc. Can I also bring my prescriptions and have them filled there without a doctor? My husband says just bring them to the farmacia. 

Thanks so much for your help.


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## AlanMexicali

I would suspect Blue Cross is not accepted here at all but you could get a Mexican health care provider through signing up once you arrive and use their contract private hospital etc. . Example they have Metlife health insurance here but I presume it has nothing to do with policies in the US. Most insurers in the US for an additional fee will sell you 2 month traveler´s insurance, but then after that you are on your own.

Your prescriptions can be sometimes filled at pharmacies on the border, depending on what and where you go but I don´t know about here. You might have to have a local Dr. write them. The prescription requests at pharmacies has changed a lot the last few years in Mexico so I wouldn´t count on anything that was before now. Again easier at the border as they are used to US clients more than here.


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## Isla Verde

deborahc9133 said:


> Thanks! That just sounds way too easy. Another question. I am so fortunate to have 100% health care for life via my employer, the state of CA. Is bluecross/shield accepted? I also have delta dental and a vision service plan all at 100%. I know that health care is cheap there, but wonder about something major - e.g., surgery etc. Can I also bring my prescriptions and have them filled there without a doctor? My husband says just bring them to the farmacia.
> 
> Thanks so much for your help.


I doubt that Blue Cross/Blue Shield is accepted here. The same with Delta and your vision service. Private health care here is cheaper than in the States but not always that cheap. Many prescriptions can be filled here, but not all of them, especially if they're written in English or are for brands of medicine not sold here. I believe you need prescription from a Mexican doctor for narcotic-type medicines and antibiotics. Your husband's advice may be a bit dated. When was the last time he lived in Mexico?


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## AlanMexicali

Isla Verde said:


> I doubt that Blue Cross/Blue Shield is accepted here. The same with Delta and your vision service. Private health care here is cheaper than in the States but not always that cheap. Many prescriptions can be filled here, but not all of them, especially if they're written in English or are for brands of medicine not sold here. I believe you need prescription from a Mexican doctor for narcotic-type medicines and antibiotics. Your husband's advice may be a bit dated. When was the last time he lived in Mexico?


My friend in SD just advised me starting 2014 I will need to show proof of health insurance or pay a $600.00 a year fine because I maintain a residence there and I am 3 years away from Medicare which counts. SHEESH!


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## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> My friend in SD just advised me starting 2014 I will need to show proof of health insurance or pay a $600.00 a year fine because I maintain a residence there and I am 3 years away from Medicare which counts. SHEESH!


Do you spend any time living in SD? I wonder what would happen if you just didn't pay the $600.


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## AlanMexicali

Isla Verde said:


> Do you spend any time living in SD? I wonder what would happen if you just didn't pay the $600.


2 years away. I keep forgetting I am older. They will probably take it out of my Social Security.

He thinks they will come out with Mickey Mouse insurance plans that cost $600.00 or $700.00 a year in this event.


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## deborahc9133

Well, I am a ******, but not any ordinary one. My husband is binational - US/Mexican for 45 years. We have property in Mexico and I have been there at least 2 x a year for 30+ years. I have hundreds of extended family there, and I speak fluent Spanish. I am not exactly a naive newby. The misunderstanding was that I fear living in Mexico, I think, because of the media hype of the violence etc. My point was that i am making a major life decision and am looking for support from those that made the decision and are happy they did. I think that the country has plenty of room for one more, and I am not taking over anyone's territory; I fact, we already own our 7 acres in Colima that we have had for many years.


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## deborahc9133

Thanks! I appreciate the feedback. I already feel that I cannot stand working in cubicle world for much longer. I made my plus and minus list - and the plusses far outweight the minuses. I guess I am just analytical like that........ I have a lifetime of making decisions and coming out ok or better on the other side.


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## Isla Verde

deborahc9133 said:


> Well, I am a ******, but not any ordinary one. My husband is binational - US/Mexican for 45 years. We have property in Mexico and I have been there at least 2 x a year for 30+ years. I have hundreds of extended family there, and I speak fluent Spanish. I am not exactly a naive newby. The misunderstanding was that I fear living in Mexico, I think, because of the media hype of the violence etc. My point was that i am making a major life decision and am looking for support from those that made the decision and are happy they did. I think that the country has plenty of room for one more, and I am not taking over anyone's territory; I fact, we already own our 7 acres in Colima that we have had for many years.


Deborah, I'm sure that things will work out just fine for you here. Just keep in mind that visits (even twice a year) are not anything like living in Mexico, or anywhere else.


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## tepetapan

deborahc9133 said:


> Thanks! That just sounds way too easy. Another question. I am so fortunate to have 100% health care for life via my employer, the state of CA. Is bluecross/shield accepted? I also have delta dental and a vision service plan all at 100%. I know that health care is cheap there, but wonder about something major - e.g., surgery etc. Can I also bring my prescriptions and have them filled there without a doctor? My husband says just bring them to the farmacia.
> 
> Thanks so much for your help.


 Some insurance companies will reimburse you, with receipts, for medical here in Mexico. You pay cash up front and send in receipts to be paid back to you. 
You will need to look over your policy and contact someone with knowledge at your insurance provider. 
More companies are willing to go along with this since they know they are far ahead money wise. The trick is the receipts and documentation.

Now a days you need a script for antibiotics and narcotics, everything else is pretty much over the counter. For antibiotics you can usually get a script for 30 pesos at a consultario Dr. next to the farmicia.


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## deborahc9133

I know that visits are different. But I don't visit on luxury terms at all. We stay in my husband's little village among my relatives in typical Mexican fashion in the basic home where he grew up. We wash clothes in the pila, the electricity goies in and out, cell phone reception is iffy, I deal totally in Spanish. I see Mexico through the eyes of a native person (Marco) , and we avoid tourist things totally. But you are right; I have not experienced life full time (except for my one year abroad in Veracruz studying in the university years ago). that is why I reached out to you full-timers.


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## deborahc9133

Thanks - will look into it.


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## mariadiamante

*Tranquile*

I left my 65,000 teaching job in the U.S. to tech in Mexico last year, and I love it. Yes. I will be poor if I move back to the U.S., but I am happy here and, more importantly, treated much nicer than I ever was in the U.S. Some things you cannot put a price on. Moving to another country is new and exciting, but also scary. I am an ESL teacher and so far, my only regret is that I didn't do this many years ago.


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## Isla Verde

mariadiamante said:


> I left my 65,000 teaching job in the U.S. to tech in Mexico last year, and I love it. Yes. I will be poor if I move back to the U.S., but I am happy here and, more importantly, treated much nicer than I ever was in the U.S. Some things you cannot put a price on. Moving to another country is new and exciting, but also scary. I am an ESL teacher and so far, my only regret is that I didn't do this many years ago.


You're lucky that you landed a job here where you were treated well. That's not always the case for expat English teachers, especially if they end up working for for profit outfits that are more interested in making lots of money than in providing a decent educational service to their clients. I speak from my personal experience, by the way.


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## Marishka

Isla Verde said:


> Deborah, I'm sure that things will work out just fine for you here. Just keep in mind that visits (even twice a year) are not anything like living in Mexico, or anywhere else.


What would the biggest surprises be for someone who makes the switch from visiting Mexico to living in Mexico?


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## citlali

What is charming and exotic becomes part of daily life and if you do not adapt some quaint customs may grate on your nerves if you have to live that way and it is not the way you lived before. Some people adapt without any problems some do not. A lot of your habits have to be changes and again it amy nor may not for you. When I stay at friends house in Teotitlan del Valle in Oaxaca , we have no hot water so you have to have cold showers or heat the water on the stove and wash with a bucket no big deal when we go during warm weather not so great in December. The bathroom is accross a very large patio and if you have to go at night, no big deal during nice weather not so great under the rain.
We have no water in the kitchen, you have to bring the water from a pila. No washing machine so I wash clothes like we used to do when I was a kid. Then you have the whole extended family showing up at strange time since we do not eat at the same time. If we are eating I have to have enough food to serve them, especially if they are older and serve them. 
I think it is fun because I visit but I know it would get on my nerve if I lived thee full time.


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## Marishka

citlali said:


> What is charming and exotic becomes part of daily life and if you do not adapt some quaint customs may grate on your nerves if you have to live that way and it is not the way you lived before. Some people adapt without any problems some do not. A lot of your habits have to be changes and again it amy nor may not for you. When I stay at friends house in Teotitlan del Valle in Oaxaca , we have no hot water so you have to have cold showers or heat the water on the stove and wash with a bucket no big deal when we go during warm weather not so great in December. The bathroom is accross a very large patio and if you have to go at night, no big deal during nice weather not so great under the rain.
> We have no water in the kitchen, you have to bring the water from a pila. No washing machine so I wash clothes like we used to do when I was a kid. Then you have the whole extended family showing up at strange time since we do not eat at the same time. If we are eating I have to have enough food to serve them, especially if they are older and serve them.
> I think it is fun because I visit but I know it would get on my nerve if I lived thee full time.


I can relate to what you’re saying, citlali. My grandparents owned an old log cabin in Colorado that they used as a vacation house. How old was it? Well, we found a trunk full of things from the 1800s in the attic, including a newspaper with a front page headline breaking the news of the assassination of Abraham Lincoln! It also contained some diaries that a woman had kept from the time she was 13 when she began her studies at an art school in New York City. She continued writing these diaries into her adult life when she married a gunslinger from Texas, and even after she was committed to a mental institution where she died in her 50s.

Anyway, my grandparents had fixed up this old log cabin with antique furniture and stained glass swinging doors from an old saloon. It was really quite charming, but life there was definitely back to basics. We cooked on a wood-burning stove, and kept items like butter and milk down in the cellar under the kitchen floor. There was an outhouse down at the end of a dirt path, and baths were taken in the kitchen in a metal tub with water that we pumped from a well by hand and then heated on the stove. After the sun went down, my grandfather would crank up the generator and we’d have light for a couple of hours, while we put together a jigsaw puzzle and sang old songs like “I Want a Girl (Just Like the Girl That Married Dear Old Dad)” and “You Are My Sunshine.” 

I loved staying there when I was a child, and didn’t even miss watching my favorite shows on tv, but that’s because everything was a novelty. It’s easy to play” Little House on the Prairie” when you know you’re going back to a life filled with all the modern conveniences that most of us take for granted.

But what about daily life at your homes in Ajijic and San Cristóbal de las Casas (where I’m sure you have plenty of hot water and an indoor bathroom :lol? Were there any difficulties in adjusting to your new life in Mexico after moving there from California? Can you think of anything you’ve encountered that threw you for a loop, or has it been smooth sailing?

I actually think some aspects of life will improve for me in Mexico, such as internet speed. I’ve never had anything faster than dial-up! And I won’t have to get used to scorpions because we have an abundance of them where I live in Texas. Don’t ask me how I know for sure that if you live in scorpion country, it’s a good idea to shake out your pants before putting them on.


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## Isla Verde

> I can relate to what you’re saying, citlali. My grandparents owned an old log cabin in Colorado that they used as a vacation house. How old was it? Well, we found a trunk full of things from the 1800s in the attic, including a newspaper with a front page headline breaking the news of the assassination of Abraham Lincoln! It also contained some diaries that a woman had kept from the time she was 13 when she began her studies at an art school in New York City. She continued writing these diaries into her adult life when she married a gunslinger from Texas, and even after she was committed to a mental institution where she died in her 50s.


A fascinating tale, Marishka. Did your grandparents ever think of donating the newspaper and the diaries to the Smithsonian or maybe a local historical society?


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## Longford

Marishka said:


> What would the biggest surprises be for someone who makes the switch from visiting Mexico to living in Mexico?


On the downside ... the dishonesty, the corruption the insecurity. The upside? Some wonderfully good friendships.


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## Marishka

Isla Verde said:


> A fascinating tale, Marishka. Did your grandparents ever think of donating the newspaper and the diaries to the Smithsonian or maybe a local historical society?


My grandparents had the front page of that newspaper framed and kept it in their home in Texas. My aunt inherited it after my grandparents died. 

My aunt also owns the diaries now. A writer was going to write a book based on the diaries, but I don't think she got beyond a first draft. I have no idea what my aunt plans to do with the newspaper and diaries. 

I like your idea about donating them. That's something I've been thinking about lately in my own life. I've already started downsizing in preparation for retirement, and have been working on my collection of books, separating the sheep from the goats, so to speak. My husband has been carting loads of "the goats" down to Half Price Books. I'll probably sell most of my rare and autographed books to collectors.

But I have a collection of autographed books written by holocaust survivors, including the very first one written after the war by a woman who was imprisoned in Auschwitz, that I've decided to donate to The Dallas Holocaust Museum/Center for Education and Tolerance.

Years ago, I also acquired a first edition copy of the _The Discovery of Freedom_ by Rose Wilder Lane, the daughter of Laura Ingalls Wilder. Tucked inside the book was a fascinating letter that Rose had written from her home in Brownsville, Texas to an aspiring writer. I'm going to donate it to the Rose Wilder Lane Collection at the Herbert Hoover Presidential Library and Museum.

I know many of you have gone through this experience of getting rid of a lifetime of possessions before you moved to Mexico. If anyone has any advice about getting rid of STUFF, I am all ears. I know I have almost 2 1/2 years to get this done, but I don't want to wait until the last minute.


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## deborahc9133

I can tell you alot about getting rid of stuff and downsizing. I am 57 years old and I now live in a one bedroom cottage with my husband and our monthly living expenses are $1300 a month, not counting food or fun. And this is in CA!!!! 30 years in the same house and we had so much stuff!! Several years ago, we moved from CA to PA and back. You never know how much useless stuff you have until you move. We now only have the things that we really need and nothing more. My clothes fit in 1/2 of a regular closet and three dresser drawers and we have no clutter at all. The way I decide to keep/buy something is to ask myself if I really need it and what is the value to me? Also, we have no debt. We owe nothing to anybody, except for a rental house in Ohio, and the tenant's rent pays that mortgage. We paid off every debt and always pay cash. We live a minimalist lifestyle and I feel free and not weighed down. Do some reading on minimalism. There is a website called minimalist.com (I think). We are in the position now to walk away very easily and be self-sufficient. It is a wonderful feeling.


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## ElPaso2012

deborahc9133 said:


> I can tell you alot about getting rid of stuff and downsizing. I am 57 years old and I now live in a one bedroom cottage with my husband and our monthly living expenses are $1300 a month, not counting food or fun. And this is in CA!!!! 30 years in the same house and we had so much stuff!! Several years ago, we moved from CA to PA and back. You never know how much useless stuff you have until you move. We now only have the things that we really need and nothing more. My clothes fit in 1/2 of a regular closet and three dresser drawers and we have no clutter at all. The way I decide to keep/buy something is to ask myself if I really need it and what is the value to me? Also, we have no debt. We owe nothing to anybody, except for a rental house in Ohio, and the tenant's rent pays that mortgage. We paid off every debt and always pay cash. We live a minimalist lifestyle and I feel free and not weighed down. Do some reading on minimalism. There is a website called minimalist.com (I think). We are in the position now to walk away very easily and be self-sufficient. It is a wonderful feeling.


Indeed, especially the part about living debt-free and converting to a totally cash based personal economy. The worst part of my upcoming move to Mexico will be getting rid of all the stuff I have acquired and stuffed into the house I have to sell. Never say never, but I'm thinking I don't ever want to own more than I can easily put into a small car just before I drive away to try living somewhere totally new to me. Just divesting myself of this property and all the unneeded things on it and in the house is going to take 3-4 months.


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## deborahc9133

It took us that long to go through all of our stuff. I know for sure that I can fit everything we need in our car. I shop only a second hand stores so furniture is recycled back when we need to move. Clothes as well - when I don't need/want an item of clothing, I redonate it back, then buy something else. I find amazing clothes at el segundo and people tell me how nice I look everyday! I can't believe how much waste was in my life before - money, stuff, time. My children are adults and on their own so I am free in many ways (don't get me wrong, I am free of my kid responsibility, but still tied to them absolutely). You can do it! Get rid of the stuff....


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## citlali

I did not have much problems adjusting to Mexico but the culture here is closer to that of southern France than that of the US.
My biggest culture shock was moving from France to England then to the US. I really did not care for the culture so Mexico was a piece of cake.

Some people have no problems adjusting and some do but there is no doubt that you idea of a place changes if you decide to settle in a place. I think the experience is different for everyone. 
The newbies usually have rose colored glasses and you seem to encounter two types of people, the ones who are "in paradise" and praise everything Mexican to a ridiculous extend and those who criticizise everything , the ones who stayed are usually the ones who come down to earth. 
Unfortunately some cannot leave for economic reasons and we end up with a bunch of unhappy people.
People like deborah who can make drastic changes in their lives are the ones who are the most likely to succeed in relocating anywhere.


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## deborahc9133

Thanks Citlali - There are so many variables to know who will/will not adjust well. You have to go through the phases of adaptation - that rose colored period, the compromising one, and then acceptance. I have visited Mexico for weeks at a time for 20+ years, but did spend one year in Xalapa as a foreign student and worked through many emotions. It is about expectations too. I lived and worked in the Philippines for almost 3 years in a refugee camp and certainly went through all phases of adjustment. I lowered my expectations there and accepted the country as is. I have also traveled to Belize, hong Kong, Vietnam and Thailand, so the poverty, language and lifestyle difference was very clear to me. I think that Mexico will be easy because of all this, and I do speak Spanish (husband speaks to me only in Spanish), plus I have no fear at all. Here I am Monday morning looking at a 40 hour week in a cubicle.........


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## eagles100

It sounds like your cubicle life has run its course and that you are mentally preparing yourself to make the big move.
I bet numerous people envy that you have the opportunity to get up and go.

As for stuff, I say take only what you can't replace easily, keep the treasures and maybe bring what is harder to find in Mexico. There are a few good threads on this subject on this forum. Here they are:

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/me...ving-mexico/74109-what-hard-get-items-mx.html

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/me...u-really-glad-you-brought-you-mexico-why.html

I will give you an example. You can buy a toaster in Mexico but I love mine so I'm bringing it.
I couldn't do without my artist paints and tools.
Some of my decorative items I wouldn't want to be without because it's part of who I am. Many decorations I was able to sell though but those special few, nope; they have to come.
We're bringing good kitchen tools, some electronics, tools, linens, clothes, golf clubs, guitar, etc.
It all has to fit in our SUV and a small cargo trailer. That's it.
The rest will be sold or given to charity.

Good luck.


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## citlali

Well Deborah, it sounds like you are ready for the jump, any inconvenience here would be better than facing a cubicle for several other years and as i said if you need to work you probaly can teach English in Colima so go for it!


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## deborahc9133

It would be a slow and painful cubicle death......


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## Isla Verde

deborahc9133 said:


> It would be a slow and painful cubicle death......


Now, now, let's not have any talk of anyone dying, in a cubicle or anywhere else on this beautiful, sunny day in Mexico City, with temperatures in the middle 70s and a gentle breeze blowing through the geraniums on my plant balcony.


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## deborahc9133

Thanks!! I was just joking about the cubicle image... sounds lovely there. Enjoy.......


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## RVGRINGO

Ah yes, but there are dangers here in Mexico: The altitude and the sunshine can give you sunburn, even though it is heating our water for free. Sadly, there is a danger that the gas man may suffer a loss of income, as a result. The other day, a large stalk of bananas caused one of the many plants to topple and it is fortunate that one of us was not crushed by the event, only because we were lazing about elsewhere in the house or yard. One must also be particularly careful not to drop a popsicle stick or the seed from a fruit snack without stepping back quickly to avoid being struck from below by the enthusiastic new plant thereby created. There is also danger to the budget in the bakery, tienda, taco cart and a hundred other conveniences in our neighborhood; even those hidden cenadurias that open only after the sun sets. Oh, the aromas, the noise of music, the laughter of children and the startling explosions of cohetes. Yes, there is quiet and solitude in a cubicle, so maybe you should be terrified of Mexico.


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## Marishka

Longford said:


> On the downside ... the dishonesty, the corruption the insecurity. The upside? Some wonderfully good friendships.


I'm definitely hoping for some wonderful friendships. 

Could you be more specific about the dishonesty, corruption and insecurity? Is there some kind of dishonesty in Mexico that I would not likely have encountered in the U.S.? And how might corruption in Mexico affect me as an expat? I'm not sure what you mean by insecurity. Sorry to be so dense.


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## mickisue1

Ah Tepetapan...when one needs to leave the country one loves, there are all sorts of ways to deal with it.

For our Longford, I fear that emphasizing the negatives about MX makes it a little more palatable to live in Chicago, now.

Have a little compassion for those of us still stuck, either by difficult choice or by circumstance, NOB.


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## FHBOY

mickisue1 said:


> Ah Tepetapan...when one needs to leave the country one loves, there are all sorts of ways to deal with it.
> 
> For our Longford, I fear that emphasizing the negatives about MX makes it a little more palatable to live in Chicago, now.
> 
> Have a little compassion for those of us still stuck, either by difficult choice or by circumstance, NOB.


There is a saying: God (Fate, The Force - whatever your concept of an unkwnown) may deal us the cards, but it is up to us to play them. Being stuck can be mental, physical, fiscal, or even familial. The question is can you use free will to overcome the stuck hand you are dealt?

Not everyone can, and that is too bad. Some though have just not worked hard enough to find a way to become unstuck, not because they don't want to or haven't tried, it's just their box has six walls, and thinking outside of them, call it the unknown, is downright scary.

No, if you're not broke (then you wouldn't have a computer would you?), there has got to be a way to work on your dream, to break out of the box. Maybe it is not on the scale you want, nor follow the screenplay in your head, but there is always a way out of one's box...maybe it just is evident yet.

Oh, yes, do not negate the "time" factor of getting out of your box. We tend to think in small terms of time, immediacy runs the life of USAers. The way out of your box may be years away, and it will take patience to get there, but you will, if you want it bad enough.

My mother used to read me a poem, I can't remember it all, but remember the title:
"If You Can't Go Over or Under, Go Around"
made sense when I was five, makes sense when I'm 63.


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## Marishka

deborahc9133 said:


> I can tell you alot about getting rid of stuff and downsizing. I am 57 years old and I now live in a one bedroom cottage with my husband and our monthly living expenses are $1300 a month, not counting food or fun. And this is in CA!!!! 30 years in the same house and we had so much stuff!! Several years ago, we moved from CA to PA and back. You never know how much useless stuff you have until you move. We now only have the things that we really need and nothing more. My clothes fit in 1/2 of a regular closet and three dresser drawers and we have no clutter at all. The way I decide to keep/buy something is to ask myself if I really need it and what is the value to me?


You are an inspiration, Deborah! That's exactly what I want to do. What I know for sure at this stage of my life is that I want to be footloose and fancy-free, and that's impossible to do with too much STUFF.



deborahc9133 said:


> Also, we have no debt. We owe nothing to anybody, except for a rental house in Ohio, and the tenant's rent pays that mortgage. We paid off every debt and always pay cash.


I think getting rid of debt is the first thing a future expat should attend to. My husband and I may have bumbled our way through life, but the one thing we've done right is that we have absolutely no debt on our home and other properties, our cars, credit cards, etc.



deborahc9133 said:


> We live a minimalist lifestyle and I feel free and not weighed down. Do some reading on minimalism. There is a website called minimalist.com (I think). We are in the position now to walk away very easily and be self-sufficient. It is a wonderful feeling.


It's a wonderful feeling just to hear about someone else accomplishing this!

We've already sold our larger rental property, leaving just the smaller condo to keep as a U.S. residence. The lady who lives next door to our coconut plantation in the DR recently called us and said she was putting her house there on the market and suggested that we bundle our properties to sell together, so we're looking into that. We have sold 14 of our 21 acres in Texas, leaving a very pretty and private 7 acres of land that our home sits on. I think it will sell pretty easily.

It's some of the stuff inside the house that feels like an albatross around my neck. I don't want to take these things with me, but I don't know the best way to go about getting rid of it all. I've never sold anything on Ebay, Etsy or Craig's List, but I think I'm going to have to learn how to do that! I sometimes feel overwhelmed by this task.


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## Marishka

deborahc9133 said:


> Thanks Citlali - There are so many variables to know who will/will not adjust well. You have to go through the phases of adaptation - that rose colored period, the compromising one, and then acceptance. I have visited Mexico for weeks at a time for 20+ years, but did spend one year in Xalapa as a foreign student and worked through many emotions. It is about expectations too. I lived and worked in the Philippines for almost 3 years in a refugee camp and certainly went through all phases of adjustment. I lowered my expectations there and accepted the country as is. I have also traveled to Belize, hong Kong, Vietnam and Thailand, so the poverty, language and lifestyle difference was very clear to me. I think that Mexico will be easy because of all this, and I do speak Spanish (husband speaks to me only in Spanish), plus I have no fear at all. Here I am Monday morning looking at a 40 hour week in a cubicle.........


Deborah, if you can't make a successful transition to living in Mexico, there's no hope for the rest of us! 

I think my husband will adjust easily to life in Mexico because he has spoken Spanish since early childhood, and because he's had so many adventures in other countries. As a young man, my husband did things like hitchhike across Europe on his way to Morocco. Sometimes that meant riding in comfort in a Mercedes, but once he was so tired while walking through Spain that he accepted a ride on the back of a donkey--it was the best he could do and he was grateful for it. 

He also lived through two coups d'état in Venezuela. During one of them, he was very ill with paratyphoid fever. They couldn't get him out to a doctor, and a doctor couldn't get to him. He just had to deal with it, lying in bed while hearing tanks and machine guns out in the street.

By comparison, the worst thing that ever happened to me in a foreign country was when the bus I was riding in broke down on a hot day in the middle of a vineyard in Italy. I spent the afternoon down in the cool wine cellar, sampling wines. Oh, what a terrible, terrible experience that was. :lol:



tepetapan said:


> Hey, It's Longford! Claims he (or she) loves Mexico but rarely has anything good to say about the country. Probably because he (or she) is stuck in Chicago. A great city that I enjoyed for decades...........3 months a year.


Longford wrote a long post a few days ago about some of his favorite cities in Mexico that sure sounded positive to me.

For what it's worth, I don't want anyone to sugarcoat Mexico for me, or to tell me what they think I want to hear.

If someone were to ask me what it's like where I live, I would give them the good, the bad and the ugly. And I hope Longford and everyone else on this board will feel free to do the same for me and other future expats when sharing experiences about living in Mexico.


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## citlali

What Longford said about Mexico is correct in my opinion, just deal with a lawyer and you quickly will know about dishonnesty, people lie all the times. mostly white lies but it gets tiring, I remember going to court and I told my lawyer , these people are lying, his answer "they lie you lie".
Unsecurity is here too. I have never hidden stuff throughout the car before taking long trips and I always do here because I know I may get stopped and robbed .
The woman who lived in our house was murdered for her car. You cannot trust the police, the MP in charge of investigating crime may or may not do anything.

I like Mexico and I am plannin to live here for the rest of my life but I am not offended by what Longford says, you have to be realistic about life here.


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## AlanMexicali

I don´t find a general dishonesty here or insecurity when I deal with anyone. This is my own experiences. If some did have a personal experience somewhere, I feel these samplings are not anywhere near the norm. What some see a generalized blanket statement I see as gossip if there are no facts to back them up.

Prove Mexicans are generally dishonest! Prove living here causes everyone to feel insecure! 

If you can I will rethink what is gossip and what is fact.

Otherwise it doesn´t fit my total experience. Not even remotely close.


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## Longford

citlali said:


> Some people have no problems adjusting and some do but there is no doubt that you idea of a place changes if you decide to settle in a place. I think the experience is different for everyone.


Dr. Mark Ehrlich is someone who has written and spoken extensively on the topic of _transitional anxiety_ - the challenges facing many expats who relocate to Mexico. Though his writing on the topic was first published about 15 years ago, I think what he's said holds true today. I've used his work in workshops/seminars I've led in Mexico City. If someone is interested in the topic the articles appear on another Mexico-specific forum for expats ... and can be found by using an internet search engine and the words: "Adjusting to Mexico: Transitional anxiety, Mark Ehrlich".


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## FHBOY

AlanMexicali said:


> I don´t find a general dishonesty here or insecurity when I deal with anyone. This is my own experiences. If some did have a personal experience somewhere, I feel these samplings are not anywhere near the norm. What some see a generalized blanket statement I see as gossip if there are no facts to back them up.
> 
> Prove Mexicans are generally dishonest! Prove living here causes everyone to feel insecure!
> 
> If you can I will rethink what is gossip and what is fact.
> 
> Otherwise it doesn´t fit my total experience. Not even remotely close.


Only having been here for 6 months, the only dishonesty or "shading of the truth" has been by our USA landlord concerning our home. 

The Mexican people here have been nothing but forthright and honest. I've purchased a car here, from a dealer, who has done nothing but bend over backward to please me. I've had a car repair, by a Mexican company, that was reasonable and in which there were no surprises. I deal regularly with a printing company and the jobs come out correctly and if there is an error, it is handled professionally. My doctor, my dentist and even my barber and SWMBO's Mexican hairstylist, have delivered what is promised when it is promised [within the manana factor], and at a cost that has had no hidden charges or fees.

Even my dealings with the government has not proven to have "catches". Maybe it is because I go into it with expert advice and the realization that any bureaucracy will intrinsically be a problem to deal with. It is also the realization that they make the rules, and as Malcolm X said, "He who makes the rules, wins the game." We, as expats, have entered a "game" where we don't make the rules, accept it or don't play, expats can never have the temerity to think that the the rules need to be changed for them.

I once again believe that it is your attitude that reflects in the service and the attitude of those you do business with. If you go in with a chip on your shoulder, if you are looking for the catch, if you start a transaction with the "They are out to screw me" attitude, you'll get it in return. If you go into transactions with honesty and forthrightness, with respect to those you have chosen to deal with, then it will be returned. 

If you enter a business (or any) relationship insisting on the NOB way of doing things, thereby disrespecting the Mexican way of doing things, then it will lead to conflict and a posting on an internet board about how bad this or that was. 

By choosing to live here, by making your life here as an expat, you must accept the local laws, customs and procedures of the way things are done...you are a guest here, no matter what you pay in Mexican taxes, Mexican utility bills, Mexican anything: this is Mexico, it is not the USA, it is not Canada or GB or France...to get along you need to understand it and go along.

No, you cannot generalize - but those who are locked into the stereotyping of people cannot leave it.


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## AlanMexicali

FHBOY.

When posters give blanket statements about corruption from the top down in ALL Mexican institutes or agencies I have to see stereotyping as a biased towards the general character of all Mexicans, first those involved in these institutes or agencies and next the general population. These are basically wrong information. 

The sampling one reads or sees on the TV news does not reflect anything about the billions of transactions these entities carry out every week.

Even if they are a small percentage that is exposed it still only samples a tiny minority of transactions in comparison and there is no reliable way to calculate the exact number happening in reality.

To state corruption is everywhere, all the time insults those who are in no way involved.


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## Longford




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## citlali

Sorry guys I can only speak of my point of views and experiences. Of course not everyone is bad, I am not stupid and do not assume that, but I had my share of experiences that make me double check things before I start trusting someone.

As far as corruption there is plenty of it and same with insecurity ignoring that is just burrying the head in the sand.


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## PanamaJack

citlali said:


> Sorry guys I can only speak of my point of views and experiences. Of course not everyone is bad, I am not stupid and do not assume that, but I had my share of experiences that make me double check things before I start trusting someone.
> 
> As far as corruption there is plenty of it and same with insecurity ignoring that is just burrying the head in the sand.


You may or may not know I have been here for most of my life. All of my adult life with the exception of four years in Boston to attend college. 

I think generalizing is a dangerous thing. Citali I respect that you have dealt with people who you do not trust and I am certain they treated you such that you did not trust them, but not all lawyers are corrupt or bad. With your experience living and working amongst the indigenous population you must know of lawyers that treat those folks honestly and correctly, the way they should be treated as equals to everyone else in this beautiful country. 

Insecurity, it may exist in the eyes of some, but it is not so bad that we all must worry about walking outside each day or going to the supermarket. Have you seen what has been happening in the U.S.? Just last weekend a man killed six before being killed by police in Hialeah, Florida. There is crime everywhere in the world, calling Mexico insecure in my opinion is not justifiable and is equal to the yellow journalism that the Miami Herald and other papers in the U.S. are famous for. 

The country is far too large to be called that. Citali have you been to D.F. lately? I have lived here for the most part of 35 years and still can walk around at night in places without feeling the least bit insecure. 

I do disagree with one comment from Alan or FHboy, not sure who wrote it. We are NOT all guests here in Mexico. Some are on visitor visas and legally they are guests. But others are residents or even naturalized citizens making them just as much a part of Mexico as a Mexican born in the country. Do you think the 50 million Hispanics in the U.S. - residents, naturalized citizens and undocumented immigrants are all guests of the U.S.? NO, it is simple, you assimulate and become part of the society. Do I feel I am a guest? absolutely NO, I have as many rights here as anyone else. It is not all about paying taxes. Some of the richest Mexicans who have been here generations do not pay their fare share of taxes, it does not make them guests it makes them nothiing other than thieves. 

Expats in my opinion, need to get over the notion of being guests. YES, we need to respect the traditions, customs and the morals, but we do not have to agree with the ways things are done here, just understand that one person is not going to change things. Of course my outlook is much different since I have worked here, raised children here and have called this home much more than I would the U.S.


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## deborahc9133

what is swmbo?


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## TundraGreen

deborahc9133 said:


> what is swmbo?


She Who Must Be Obeyed. A reference to one's spouse. It originated with a novel called "She" by Henry Rider Haggard. Then it was used in a British comedy called Rumpole of the Bailey. Leo McKern played a rumpled, iconclastic lawyer who referred to his wife Hilda as She Who Must Be Obeyed.


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## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> She Who Must Be Obeyed. A reference to one's spouse. It originated with a novel called "She" by Henry Rider Haggard. Then it was used in a British comedy called Rumpole of the Bailey. Leo McKern played a rumpled, iconclastic lawyer who referred to his wife Hilda as She Who Must Be Obeyed.


The BBC comedy series (seen in the US as part of Mystery! on PBS) was based on the wonderful Rumpole novels by the late British writer John Mortimer. If you like mysteries and British humor, you'll love these books!


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## Hound Dog

I get a kick out of some of you questioning Citlali´s judgment when she urges caution in your dealings, business or personal, in Mexico where she has lived both at Lake Chapala and in the Chiapas Highlands, (where she is actively involved with the indigenous community as an equal and valued participant) for over 12 years and I have been fortunate to have lived with her for 42 years. When she speaks of the need to build trust intelligently, rather than naively accepting others at their word upon first interaction, she speaks only from first-hand experience - never from rumor or third party representation 

Citlali is a Latina herslf having been norn and raised in France and she is quite familiar with cultural mores and attitudes in latin cultures and, in that regard, France and Mexico have much in common. I am reminded of two historical events that occurred in our years together. 

First, was an opportunity we had to buy a house on a river in the Loire Valley in France at what was then a dirt cheap price from a woman who was suffering a debilitating illness and needed to enter a home for the elderly with constant care and was offering her very nice secluded house on a river to her as a result. At that point, we were a good 20 plus years from our ability to retire and move to France so we would, of necessity, have bought the home to lock down and hold for over two decades before we could actually move to the Loire Valley and live there. Now, I am a U.S. boy, born and raised and while I had lived for extended periods of time in France in those days, I remained naive about certain nuances of the law and culture there. I urged her to buy the house. Her response was that I should consider that the house was located in France, not California where we lived then and that in France it was imprudent to even think of buying a secluded house and leaving it empty for any extended period of time without paying for active, full-time property management to watch and care for the property as it was a virtual certainty that squatters would move into and take over the house and under French law, if they were there for a certain minimum time, title to the house would accrue to their benefit and they would in fact own the house and we woiuld lose the property altogether with no chance of any compensation under the law. We did not buy that house even though, financially, it was a great bargain ina fabulous location. 

Tell me about squatter´s rights in the Latin country of Mexico versus squatter´s rights in the Latin country of France. Tell me if you would dare buy a secluded house in Mexico and leave in empty and unguarded full time. Admittedly, that´s not a good idea in California either but there is a difference between California and France where opportunists would almost certainly appropriate your house if you left it empty for any measurable length of time.

My other favorite tale concerns a road trip we took back in the early 1990s with her sister and brother-in-law from Paris who were visiting us in Northern California. We took them on a road trip to Bryce Canyon National Park, among other places, in Utah. While visiting Bryce Canyon, we came upon an apricot orchard beside the highway loaded with beautiful ripe apricots which had an unmanned sales booth out in front with a sign reading, "Pick Your Own Apricots, Weigh Your harvest on the Scale on the Table and Leave Payment in the Box on the Table. $0.50 a Pound". My brother-in-law, who is a native of Spain and has lived in Paris for many years was incredulous and was on the floor laughing so hard he was in tears as he observed visitors picking fruit, meticulously weighing their harvests and leaving the correct payment for the fruit they had taken in the payment box. He exclaimed, "They are actually weighing the fruit and paying for it as requested yet no one is here to watch them nor manage the process and it is based strictly on an honor system. I cannot believe this. In France, they would not only steal all the the fruit they could carry and cram into their cars but they would steal the scale, the box with any money in it, the table and even the sign. Within an hour, the orchard would be bare and look like a hurricane had blown through here!" 

Well, we bought and paid for a few pounds of beautifully ripe apricots and a few hours later, as we crossed the state line from Nevada into California, the state of Caifornia had set up a fruit declaration and inspection station at the border, as is normal there, and the inspector inquired of me, as I was the driver, if we had any fruits to declare and I responded that. yes we had some apricots we had harvested from an orchard in the trunk and the inspector asked the location of the orchard. I told him Utah and he said, "Well that´s too bad. If the apricots had been picked in Nevada we would allow them in but we have a quarantine on Utah fruits at the present time so I am going to have to confiscate the apricots." My brother-in-law and, in fact, the entire entourage of French people looked at me as if I were nuts when we drove off toward San Francisco wiithout the apricots with which we had anticipated making a fine French apricot tart that evening. "What the hell", he exclaimed, "why did you tell him we had apricots in the trunk? Would they have searched the car?" I responded, "No, it´s an honor system and I´m supposed to tell the truth as California has been having terrible fruit fly problems and fruits from certain areas have, as a result, been quarantined."

Apparently, it is inconceivable to French people that they would voluntarily admit having quarantined fruit in their car to an inspector who would not search the car but might confiscate that fruit if I acknowledged having some in the vehicle. No French apricot tart that night and I was a pariah to say nothing of a goodie-two-shoes moron for the rest of that trip into San Francisco and later that night when it came to be time for dessert and there was none.

By the way; on thing I will say about the French. They don´t care what you say about them and these situational ethics they display so no need to defend the French as some of you have defended Mexicans because they realñly don´t give a damn what you think - ot at least my brother-in-law doesn´t. He just wanted that apricot tart which we had left at the border for the enjoyment, no doubt, of the inspctor´s familiy later that day.


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## Longford

PanamaJack said:


> Expats in my opinion, need to get over the notion of being guests. YES, we need to respect the traditions, customs and the morals, but we do not have to agree with the ways things are done here, just understand that one person is not going to change things. Of course my outlook is much different since I have worked here, raised children here and have called this home much more than I would the U.S.


:clap2:


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## PanamaJack

Hound Dog said:


> I get a kick out of some of you questioning Citlali´s judgment when she urges caution in your dealings, business or personal, in Mexico where she has lived both at Lake Chapala and in the Chiapas Highlands.QUOTE]
> 
> Hound Dog your wife might be French and she might very well tell the truth, but it is in fact her truth for Lake Chapala and the San Cristobal de las Casas Highlands, a far cry from the entire 5800miles of coastline from Tijuana to Tapachuala. Not all Mexicans or the same nor all the French for that matter.
> 
> Do you really expect readers and posters to believe every word written by you, your wife or for that matter me? Just because of your 12 years in Mexico. Well, I have been her 36 and there are not many rincones o pueblitos I do not know.
> 
> Dad always said believe believe a quarter of what you hear, 50% of what you read and most of what you see, that is if you have not had a tequila or three.
> 
> And if she does not need to be defended or care what others think, then why such a long dissertation on the French and your brother-in-law?


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## citlali

Panama Jack. I qualified my answer and said that this was my point of view based on personal experiences, you obviously have different expereiences.
I have many friends in this country and I am not putting down the whole country but I have learned that you should not confuse nice, polite and honest, we all know the best con artists are all nice people.
DF is not a place I am afraid of:. was there 2 or 3 weeks ago and will be there again in about 3 weeks , I am from a large city and I love big cities, I am always looking forwards to going there. I walk the streets there at night depending on the area I am staying in. 

Actually I do more walking in DF at night than I do in Ajijic as the streets are a whole lot more interesting there!


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## Marishka

One thing I’ve learned from citlali is what a difference it can make when an expat has a good command of Spanish. She always knows what is really going on in Ajijic—who’s being extorted, who’s been kidnapped, who’s been robbed, who’s been murdered, etc., while the expats who speak little to no Spanish seem to be living in a parallel universe, not very tuned in to what is happening outside the expat community. It’s not that she’s being “negative,” since she obviously also appreciates all the good things about her life in Mexico. She just has a more complete picture of the totality of life there.

I’m not expecting trouble in Mexico, and I’m certainly not going to look for it. But even if nothing bad happens to me, I don’t want to be like Mr. Magoo, unaware of my surroundings as I explore Mexico. I believe I’ll be able to cope with any challenges of living in Mexico, but if there is anything I can do to avoid the negatives mentioned by Longford, I’d prefer to do that!

For that reason, I’m going to ask my questions again, but re-phrase them to be clearer in what I’m asking.



Longford said:


> On the downside ... the dishonesty, the corruption the insecurity. The upside? Some wonderfully good friendships.


How would those negatives affect someone like myself who won't be doing business in Mexico, won't be driving a car, and won't be living in places where rival cartels are fighting over territory?


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## FHBOY

PanamaJack said:


> You may or may not know I have been here for most of my life. All of my adult life with the exception of four years in Boston to attend college.
> 
> I do disagree with one comment from Alan or FHboy, not sure who wrote it. We are NOT all guests here in Mexico...


The problem with this type of communication is that all the dot for "i's" and crosses for "t's" are tough to do when all there is is a keyboard especially if the issue at hand is multi faceted and difficult. We'd all do a better job face-to-face or even voice-to-voice to make our opinions clear and to have the elbow room to modify them.

You are correct, people with RP, RT, citizenship etc are not literally guests, we live here, but we are guests in the sense of culture. When you walk into your friend's home, no matter how long you've known him or her, you are still a guest...but you have learned what is expected in his/her home and have become comfortable with it. This is sense I am talking about. We all, if you wish to exclude tourists, have a stake in this place we have chosen to be our home, but I maintain that we must adjust to it, rather than demand/complain it adjust to us. 

So, I don't essentially disagree with you, I think there are many different levels to the discussion.


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## FHBOY

_How would those negatives affect someone like myself who won't be doing business in Mexico, won't be driving a car, and won't be living in places where rival cartels are fighting over territory?_ 

From what I can see, not much. The day-to-day living here is so much better (for us) than we were expecting. Yes, we are not yet fully fluent in Spanish, and I am sure when we are, we'll read the newspapers and listen to the TV and find out the dark side of what is happening...but the question is: On a day-to-day basis does this affect, directly, expats. In our case, living at Lakeside the answer is no. No, we do not have our heads in the sand, we know there is a "****** tax" living here, we know that there is terrible suffering by Mexicans economically and socially, but do we wake up and go to sleep worrying that we will go to a shopping mall or movie theater and get shot? No, we don't. 

Do some of us do what we can: like supplying school supplies or soccer balls as has been done here; by getting involved in civic and charitable organizations to benefit our community, both expat and Mexican, yes we do. Those who choose to not get involved, and they have every right not to may be those whose heads are heading for the sand. At Lakeside, we have problems...definitely but just like NOB, those who want to ignore them can. But at least down here, we can walk the streets at night with a lot more confidence than we can NOB (por lo general - so don't shoot me down for that last statement)


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## FHBOY

*Swmbo*



deborahc9133 said:


> what is swmbo?


As it has been explained, but I elaborate:

It is a term of endearment and a title granted to my mother that has been lovingly passed down to my wife. Someone thought it was derogatory, it defintiely is not.

 BTW: I've seen (for over 42 years), SWMBO's job - it is too tough and I don't want it! I gladly will relinquish the title.


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## citlali

Marishka, you cannot be worry about any of it just be aware it is there and do what you want to do.
Do learn Spanish , get to know Mexicans of all classes, it is a rewarding experience , do not be afraid of driving or going out or do what you enjoy. As long as you treat people with respect people reciprocate and if someone does not treat you with respect do not hesitate to go after them, you are not a guest if you live here.


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## PanamaJack

FHBOY said:


> The problem with this type of communication is that all the dot for "i's" and crosses for "t's" are tough to do when all there is is a keyboard especially if the issue at hand is multi faceted and difficult. We'd all do a better job face-to-face or even voice-to-voice to make our opinions clear and to have the elbow room to modify them.
> 
> You are correct, people with RP, RT, citizenship etc are not literally guests, we live here, but we are guests in the sense of culture. When you walk into your friend's home, no matter how long you've known him or her, you are still a guest...but you have learned what is expected in his/her home and have become comfortable with it. This is sense I am talking about. We all, if you wish to exclude tourists, have a stake in this place we have chosen to be our home, but I maintain that we must adjust to it, rather than demand/complain it adjust to us.
> 
> So, I don't essentially disagree with you, I think there are many different levels to the discussion.


I guess I feel differently and I touched upon that at the end of my post before. Since I have been here so long I feel at home. I do not enter the home of by best friend's parents feeling like a guest, I am sure the same way you felt walking into the home of your best friend.

I have slept there, passed out their and done a few other things that I am not so proud of there. They call me "mijo"or "hijo" and I partake in every holiday, event, birthday, wedding, etc, etc as if Pablo was my brotther,actually they are my padrinos (God parents) So I guess I see your point FHBOY, but it does not fit my situation. 

One brief but truthful statement coming from someone who has been there, done that and the rest. PLEASE do not patronize the people. If you want to help do so but do not over do it or otherwise they will begin to think you are patronizing them. I had that thrown in my face as a 16 year old when my father sponsored our basketball team to play a tournament in the U.S. My friends parents said he did it just because he was with the embassy and wanted to show them up? 

Of course some of them had the money to help out and others did not. But it was a lesson I learned and has taught me to be guarded when it comes to helping. Believe I still do my share, but most of it is through my wife and her foundation.


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## Hound Dog

_


PanamaJack said:





Hound Dog said:



I get a kick out of some of you questioning Citlali´s judgment when she urges caution in your dealings, business or personal, in Mexico where she has lived both at Lake Chapala and in the Chiapas Highlands.QUOTE]

Hound Dog your wife might be French and she might very well tell the truth, but it is in fact her truth for Lake Chapala and the San Cristobal de las Casas Highlands, a far cry from the entire 5800miles of coastline from Tijuana to Tapachuala. Not all Mexicans or the same nor all the French for that matter. 

Do you really expect readers and posters to believe every word written by you, your wife or for that matter me? Just because of your 12 years in Mexico. Well, I have been her 36 and there are not many rincones o pueblitos I do not know. 

*Dad always said believe believe a quarter of what you hear, 50% of what you read and most of what you see, that is if you have not had a tequila or three.*And if she does not need to be defended or care what others think, then why such a long dissertation on the French and your brother-in-law?

Click to expand...



Click to expand...

_


PanamaJack said:


> It sounds to me PJ, as if you agree with me based on the sentence you wrote above, which I have emphasized with bold type, about your dad´s statement regarding the need for skepticism. My post, which concerned the French and not the Mexicans, was meant anecdotally and was also meant to be an amusing retelling of events that happened in California years ago while my brother-in-law was visiting us from Paris. The posting was not meant to defend my wife who is entirely capable of defending herself but, as I stated earlier, since she is French, she, as is typical of the French, places only marginal value on what outsiders think of her postings regarding ethnic or national characteristics of any group of people.
> 
> It sounds to me as if your dad and Citlali agree that you should use caution in deciding with whom to share tequila and, after a certain amount of that spirit, what to believe that you swear you saw while under its influence. I do not have that problem. I have found over the years that the more tequila I ingest the more incisive my thought processes and the more profound my ability to express myself as far as I can remember. _Hic!_
> 
> I must admit the posting about my brother-in-law was a bit lengthy but I still think it´s a good story illustrative of the French character in general.


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## PanamaJack

Hound Dog said:


> PanamaJack said:
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds to me as if your dad and Citlali agree that you should use caution in deciding with whom to share tequila and, after a certain amount of that spirit, what to believe that you swear you saw while under its influence. I do not have that problem. I have found over the years that the more tequila I ingest the more incisive my thought processes and the more profound my ability to express myself as far as I can remember. _Hic!_
> .
> 
> 
> 
> As Pablo's father always says - "arriba, abajo, al centro y adentro" - Salud, Cheers
> Sorry for breaking rule No. 6 but in spanish is makes much more sense - as you have your shot glass in hand you raise and say up, then bring it down, then in the center and lastly iniside your mouth or adentro.
> 
> That is how we start each visit to his house and usually top off each evening before leaving.
Click to expand...


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## makaloco

Hound Dog said:


> My other favorite tale concerns a road trip we took back in the early 1990s with her sister and brother-in-law from Paris who were visiting us in Northern California. We took them on a road trip to Bryce Canyon National Park, among other places, in Utah. While visiting Bryce Canyon, we came upon an apricot orchard beside the highway loaded with beautiful ripe apricots which had an unmanned sales booth out in front with a sign reading, "Pick Your Own Apricots, Weigh Your harvest on the Scale on the Table and Leave Payment in the Box on the Table. $0.50 a Pound". My brother-in-law, who is a native of Spain and has lived in Paris for many years was incredulous and was on the floor laughing so hard he was in tears as he observed visitors picking fruit, meticulously weighing their harvests and leaving the correct payment for the fruit they had taken in the payment box. He exclaimed, "They are actually weighing the fruit and paying for it as requested yet no one is here to watch them nor manage the process and it is based strictly on an honor system. I cannot believe this. In France, they would not only steal all the the fruit they could carry and cram into their cars but they would steal the scale, the box with any money in it, the table and even the sign. Within an hour, the orchard would be bare and look like a hurricane had blown through here!"


Hound Dog's story about his in-laws and the apricots reminds me of when my Mexican next-door neighbor rang my doorbell in a panic because passers-by were stealing fruit off my mandarin orange tree. I have no idea what she felt I should have been doing to prevent such a despicable crime wave, but since my two mandarina trees produce more fruit annually than I could eat in 20 years, I told her they were welcome to it. Wouldn't it be a good joke on all their "clients" if the apricot people were simply trying to get rid of a surplus and avoid having to hire someone to harvest their crop? Idiot that I am, I usually pay to have my fruit picked, then give it away free.


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## FHBOY

_PLEASE do not patronize the people. If you want to help do so but do not over do it or otherwise they will begin to think you are patronizing them._

That is the truth. Many of those from NOB, especially the USA, come here thinking that somehow Mexicans need the help of Anglos to get by. How arrogant! 

Mesoamerica was thriving way before the Europeans invaded the North American continent. Right now, isn't the Mexican economy even faring better overall than the USA?


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## GARYJ65

FHBOY said:


> PLEASE do not patronize the people. If you want to help do so but do not over do it or otherwise they will begin to think you are patronizing them.
> 
> That is the truth. Many of those from NOB, especially the USA, come here thinking that somehow Mexicans need the help of Anglos to get by. How arrogant!
> 
> Mesoamerica was thriving way before the Europeans invaded the North American continent. Right now, isn't the Mexican economy even faring better overall than the USA?


Agree 100%


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## Marishka

Hound Dog said:


> Tell me about squatter´s rights in the Latin country of Mexico versus squatter´s rights in the Latin country of France. Tell me if you would dare buy a secluded house in Mexico and leave in empty and unguarded full time. Admittedly, that´s not a good idea in California either but there is a difference between California and France where opportunists would almost certainly appropriate your house if you left it empty for any measurable length of time.


This happened to us. A squatter tried to move onto our property in the Dominican Republic. He put some livestock on our land, planted crops of some kind, cut down some of our coconut trees (which is against the law in Samana), and planted a bunch of banana plants.

Which was kind of funny because when I was a little girl, my father was going to buy a banana plantation in Ecuador. The deal fell through, and ever since that time, our family has referred to anything that doesn't come to pass as a "banana plantation." So when that squatter planted so many banana plants on my land, my father joked that he was glad that someone in our family finally got their banana plantation. :lol:

Anyway, our lawyer was able to track down the squatter. The squatter claimed that he had been given to permission to live there by the owner. Our lawyer informed him otherwise and threatened him with who knows what, but it did the trick and he left.



FHBOY said:


> No, we do not have our heads in the sand, we know there is a "****** tax" living here, we know that there is terrible suffering by Mexicans economically and socially, but do we wake up and go to sleep worrying that we will go to a shopping mall or movie theater and get shot? No, we don't.


Since the risk of being shot at a mall or movie theater in the U.S. is very low--no greater than the chance of being struck by lightning, I don’t worry about that, either. There’s no point in worrying over any sort of random event that is just not likely to happen to you.

I'm sure I would worry, though, if I lived in a village, such as Ajijic, that has a pattern of dozens of murders, kidnappings, home invasions and shoot-outs. And I would feel the same about living in a neighborhood in a large city that has a pattern of violent crime. I have no objection to anyone choosing to move into that kind of setting, but it’s out of my personal comfort zone. I've seen criticisms of the residents there who install elaborate security systems, but the truth is they don't put up razor wire and electric fencing because they are paranoid--they do it because they need it for their personal security.



FHBOY said:


> But at least down here, we can walk the streets at night with a lot more confidence than we can NOB (por lo general - so don't shoot me down for that last statement)


I live just outside of a small town that has about the same population as that of Ajijic, but instead of dozens of murders a year, it has zero murders a year, which is the norm for towns of that size in the U.S. I'm always puzzled why expats in Ajijic tend to compare the violent crime in their small village to that of large cities in the U.S. such as Detroit and Chicago, instead of towns that have a similar population. 



citlali said:


> Marishka, you cannot be worry about any of it just be aware it is there and do what you want to do.
> Do learn Spanish , get to know Mexicans of all classes, it is a rewarding experience , do not be afraid of driving or going out or do what you enjoy. As long as you treat people with respect people reciprocate and if someone does not treat you with respect do not hesitate to go after them, you are not a guest if you live here.


That's very good advice, citlali. Thank you. I can't wait to begin our Mexican adventures!


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## licjohnmitchell

It sounds to me like with proper planning, you should be just fine. That is almost 28000 pesos a month. Two people should live pretty well on that. I say pull the trigger. In the end we usually most regret the things we didn't do more than the ones we did. Good luck.


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## tepetapan

licjohnmitchell said:


> It sounds to me like with proper planning, you should be just fine. That is almost 28000 pesos a month. Two people should live pretty well on that. I say pull the trigger. In the end we usually most regret the things we didn't do more than the ones we did. Good luck.


 I think you nailed it. When I look back on my life, my only real regrets are things I did not do. Everything else is someone else's fault.


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=Marishka;1268941]This happened to us. A squatter tried to move onto our property in the Dominican Republic. He put some livestock on our land, planted crops of some kind, cut down some of our coconut trees (which is against the law in Samana), and planted a bunch of banana plants.

Which was kind of funny because when I was a little girl, my father was going to buy a banana plantation in Ecuador. The deal fell through, and ever since that time, our family has referred to anything that doesn't come to pass as a "banana plantation." So when that squatter planted so many banana plants on my land, my father joked that he was glad that someone in our family finally got their banana plantation. :lol:

Anyway, our lawyer was able to track down the squatter. The squatter claimed that he had been given to permission to live there by the owner. Our lawyer informed him otherwise and threatened him with who knows what, but it did the trick and he left...._

Interesting. As France, the subject of my earlier comments on this thread, is a latin country just as The Dominican Republic and Mexico, I thought perhaps it cogent to point out what my French wife had to observe about this incident upon having read it. It seems that if you own arable land which you allow to remain fallow in France, if someone moves in and cultivates that land as this fellow did on your father´s property including in this case the introduction of livestock a well, over time they may gain clean title to the subject property. Now, since the land was being used as a palm orchard and the interloper was confronted and ejected, that didn´t happen here but that is something to keep in mind if you buy land in Mexico and leave it lying fallow over time with the intention of utilizing it some day. I´m no lawyer, of course, but just someting of which to be aware. Perhaps had not this interloper been confronted, over time, he may have actually succeeded in his acheme.

I like that banana plantation as "pipe dream" analogy as your father quipped. As we age, we all have "banana plantations" haunting us from somewhere in our past. When we decided to retire to Mexico, one alternative to that was to retire to the Dominican Republic and live on a beach lined with coconut palms on the Caribbean Sea but we chose Lake Chapala instead - a delightful place. Once in a while, however, I dream of living on that beach in the Dominican Republic. My banana plantation.


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## AlanMexicali

*Squatters*

I had 2 sets of squatters live in a second house we had for 30 years that was not rented for a couple of years. The first time a lawyer got them out with the police at a cost of $400.00 US.

The second time it was 2 families who had the electricity in their name and painted the house pink, inside and out and had a small kitchen and bathroom sink and toilet installed. The same lawyer could not get the police to evict them so he went and found the army and more police to do it and the cost was $500.00 US.

In Baja if they had been able to stay there for 2 years they could have been the new owners if they applied to the right agency. As it was they had lived there 3 months when evicted.

We where in San Diego when this happened and did not visit for sometime. My ex sister in law checked the house on occasion for us.


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## citlali

Same thing has happened in Ajijic. The people call these squatters the huizapoles, they have lawyers i Guadalajara who help them and they basically steal land.


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## Isla Verde

citlali said:


> Same thing has happened in Ajijic. The people call these squatters the huizapoles, they have lawyers i Guadalajara who help them and they basically steal land.


How do these people (the _huizapoles_ and the lawyers) rationalize what is quasi-legal theft?


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## RVGRINGO

Folks visit, like what they see and buy a lot for future retirement. Typically, they fence it and forget it for the intervening years. Squatters soon figure out the situation and may move onto the property, even making small improvements to satisfy the requirements for claiming the lot in a couple of years. It can be as simple as mowing, planting, having water and/or electricity installed, etc. Neighbors will generally assume that the new owner had arranged all of that. A couple of years later and SURPRISE ! A judge has issued an order and the property belongs to someone else.
Similarly: Owners die, heirs authorize a local abogado to sell the property. It is sold to a friend, or even squatted upon while the heirs lose interest, but will not come to Mexico to take charge. Soon, SURPRISE. It is gone.
So, if your heirs are not willing and able to come right down and handle matters, you might as well will your property, cars and contents to someone who is here and who would appreciate it.


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## Longford

In many parts, maybe most parts of the country ... the squatters are commonly referred to as _paracaidistas_ ... from what I've observed and learned over the years.


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## citlali

Huizapoles are a special type of squatters , In Ajijic they came from Michoacan and set out to steal land and suceeded. The usual squatters may or may not leave but with a little money you can usually make them move on. The huizapoles do set out to steal the land and hence the name, it is a name of a weed that have little stickies and is very difficult to get rid off.


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## Joycee

deborahc9133 said:


> Thanks. I agree that life in the USA is rather boring and over-regulated. Don't do this, can't do that...... I am feeling very confident about making the move. Has anyone gotten social security yet? How difficult is it to get? is it direct deposit? Is it the same amount that is calculated on the annual statement? Do we pay US taxes on it? Thanks in advance.


Hi Deborah

I was gone for a while so I wasn't able to answer your questions about Social Security right away. I don't want you to get any unpleasant surprises. Depending on your situation, the amount of Social Security you receive may not be the same as that calculated on your annual statement. If I am not mistaken, California state employees do not pay into the Social Security system. You do not get any social security unless you had income from a job that is covered by Social Security, which I assume you did. However your social security check may be reduced because of your California pension.. I suggest you contact SSA and ask them if you will be subject to a reduction and how much. Second point, Social Security income is subject to federal income tax. It is not the same amount as regular income as there is a certain amount that is exempt. You may not have to pay anything if your total income is under a certain amount. I don't know off hand what that amount is . All I know is that my Social Security income is taxed.


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## Marishka

Hound Dog said:


> I like that banana plantation as "pipe dream" analogy as your father quipped. As we age, we all have "banana plantations" haunting us from somewhere in our past. When we decided to retire to Mexico, one alternative to that was to retire to the Dominican Republic and live on a beach lined with coconut palms on the Caribbean Sea but we chose Lake Chapala instead - a delightful place. Once in a while, however, I dream of living on that beach in the Dominican Republic. My banana plantation.


My husband and I had that same dream, Hound Dog. We bought this 4-acre oceanfront coconut plantation (about 300 coconut trees and also some lime, papaya and almond trees) in Samana with plans to build on it after we retire and then to live happily ever after. At the time we bought it, it seemed like the perfect plan. "If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans..."

After we bought that place, we also bought 21 acres in Texas, built a house and have lived out here since the summer of 1999. One day, we realized that we'd be living the same kind of peaceful, country life in the Dominican Republic that we've lived here in Texas, but with the sea as a backdrop. It's been a great life here, but we had begun to miss all the things we used to do in the city. Then we started thinking that maybe we would just spend the winters in Samana and go somewhere else the rest of the year. My mother suggested Mexico. We researched it and found that Mexico offered so much that we just had to explore it. Thanks, Mom! 

The squatter incident just happened recently. You should have seen my face when I got the news from a neighbor in the DR. "What do you mean, a guy put a cow, a pig and some chickens on our land? What do mean he's building some kind of shack? What do you mean he's cutting down our coconut trees? NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

I investigated squatters rights in the Dominican Republic while the matter was being settled and it scared me to death. We realized that if we built there, we couldn't travel without having someone stay on our property--either a housesitter or a caretaker. We want our lives to be freer than that. Besides, we're kind of weary of the whole home maintenance routine. We'd like to just travel around for a while. We could downsize to our lakeshore condo, lock up and take off! Kind of like a couple of kids with backpacks, only with gray hair and wheely suitcases. :lol: 

Even though we're putting our land in Samana up for sale, we're still drawn to tropical beach locations. So in addition to exploring our options in the Central Highlands of Mexico, we also need to start thinking about beautiful, beachy places where we could spend the winters in Mexico. We're open to suggestions!


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## surfrider

If I were you I would be more concerned in keeping my good government job in the states than I would be leaving it and coming to Mexico... I would get out of there as fast as you can, with as much as you can - while you still can. I think that Mexico is more stable than the states but that is just me, not everyone agrees with that concept.


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## Longford

I don't think Mexico is "unstable" even though portions of the nation are in control of terrorists and not the federal government. But I'm convinced the government of the USA is substantially more stable than Mexico. However, as a former state employee I'm troubled by the constant attacks on public employees in the USA by the extremist political elements in the country. I'm grateful I don't have to rely upon my state pension in order to live or for state provided healthcare coverage.


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## deborahc9133

Thanks to both of you!!!!! Here I sit on the 13th floor of a state building in downtown Sacramento. This cubicle is my world for the next 8 hours - no window, no talking, fingers on my state-issued computer all day......... hmmmmmm 10 more years of this????


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## GARYJ65

deborahc9133 said:


> Thanks to both of you!!!!! Here I sit on the 13th floor of a state building in downtown Sacramento. This cubicle is my world for the next 8 hours - no window, no talking, fingers on my state-issued computer all day......... hmmmmmm 10 more years of this????


Wow, sounds to me like a existential crisis or a urgent need for vacations


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## deborahc9133

My mind is just numb after 26 years of this.


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## Longford

deborahc9133 said:


> Thanks to both of you!!!!! Here I sit on the 13th floor of a state building in downtown Sacramento. This cubicle is my world for the next 8 hours - no window, no talking, fingers on my state-issued computer all day......... hmmmmmm 10 more years of this????


The job is what you make of it. If you view it only as doom and gloom, that's what it will be. A self-fulfilling prophecy.


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## deborahc9133

I like my job...... I manage a human trafficking program. I am just tired of working...my job has given me many benefits over the years. That is why I am on this website, to do what you all are doing.


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## AlanMexicali

Terrified here! Once again a thoughtless driver went through a red light today to turn left on a circular entrance to a large street and came within 1 foot of my butt when I was walking crossing on one of those rare "Green Pase" lights at about 30 MPH. Disgustingly rude!


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## surfrider

Sometimes the really scary thing about moving is just changing comfort zones. For some it is harder to change situations of familiarity to the unknown than it is for others. But have faith in yourself - in your ability to make decisions - and faith that you will work out what needs to happen for you to be comfortable here. 
I know when I fist moved here I was frightened. Then I was overwhelmed, then I felt a little more comfortable. It took time but now, I could not see myself going back and adjusting to that old life style - I do not want to change the style of life I have here. I like it here - a lot.
I have no intention to leave.


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## deborahc9133

I appreciate your response. I am 57 years old and have many experiences of doing something that I thought was a big risk, and it turned out just fine, better, in some cases. I actually got a job offer yesterday and it is too hard to pass up. It is like a dream came true - teaching ESL in a great private school in the town where my husband it from, which would allow us to rent a place by the ocean. That, combined with my retirement income and health benefits, feels like a good deal to me. The only thing stopping me is my own fear.


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## surfrider

deborahc9133 said:


> I appreciate your response. I am 57 years old and have many experiences of doing something that I thought was a big risk, and it turned out just fine, better, in some cases. I actually got a job offer yesterday and it is too hard to pass up. It is like a dream came true - teaching ESL in a great private school in the town where my husband it from, which would allow us to rent a place by the ocean. That, combined with my retirement income and health benefits, feels like a good deal to me. The only thing stopping me is my own fear.


I fully understand that. I came here in my mid 60's with a handicapped adult child of mine. It was not just my life I was putting on the line but my son's as well. But in my deep gut I knew what I was doing was right for us both and the end result is I was right. It has been the very best move we have made and it has been good for us both. It just took a while to get comfortable with it.


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## Isla Verde

deborahc9133 said:


> I appreciate your response. I am 57 years old and have many experiences of doing something that I thought was a big risk, and it turned out just fine, better, in some cases. I actually got a job offer yesterday and it is too hard to pass up. It is like a dream came true - teaching ESL in a great private school in the town where my husband it from, which would allow us to rent a place by the ocean. That, combined with my retirement income and health benefits, feels like a good deal to me. The only thing stopping me is my own fear.


It sounds like the gods are smiling at you right now. Don't let your fear (of what exactly?) keep you from making this move that you really want.


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## Marishka

Isla Verde said:


> It sounds like the gods are smiling at you right now. Don't let your fear (of what exactly?) keep you from making this move that you really want.


I agree with Isla. As long as you've done the math and are sure that you have the funds you need to live in Mexico at a level you are comfortable with, go for it!


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## citlali

If you have the funds to retire and got a job offer in Mexico , go for it and look at it as a second carreer so you will not feel you are just giving up on working altogether.


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## Isla Verde

citlali said:


> If you have the funds to retire and got a job offer in Mexico , go for it and look at it as a second carreer so you will not feel you are just giving up on working altogether.


What's wrong with giving up on working? It's what makes retirement so enjoyable!


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## deborahc9133

Thanks both of you. I feel like I am too young to retire (56).The retirement money will be my base. I had a great job in state government, but my real passion is teaching ESL. The good thing about the school is that have easter/christmas holiday off, plus a few months in the summer, all with pay. The city is Tecoman in Colima and we can rent a house near the beach, which is impossible in CA. I will never be able to buy a house in the US again and we lost our home to a short sale, though we have rental property In Ohio. We will be able to buy a house in Colima, but to pay cash we need to build up some funds. 

On another note, is there a market for goats? My husband thought to raise some on our property and sell the meat. I have no idea. Do you know how much they would sell for?


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## GARYJ65

deborahc9133 said:


> Thanks both of you. I feel like I am too young to retire (56).The retirement money will be my base. I had a great job in state government, but my real passion is teaching ESL. The good thing about the school is that have easter/christmas holiday off, plus a few months in the summer, all with pay. The city is Tecoman in Colima and we can rent a house near the beach, which is impossible in CA. I will never be able to buy a house in the US again and we lost our home to a short sale, though we have rental property In Ohio. We will be able to buy a house in Colima, but to pay cash we need to build up some funds.
> 
> On another note, is there a market for goats? My husband thought to raise some on our property and sell the meat. I have no idea. Do you know how much they would sell for?


I can answer to the last one: Goats are not a good idea; goat meat market is not at all good in Mexico, possibly goat products, cheese?
In any case, I would not suggest to raise goats here

I was a Corporate Director at an american poultry company here in Mexico, I know the meat market


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## surfrider

GaryJ65 you just amaze me with the things you have done. Who would have guessed?


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## GARYJ65

surfrider said:


> GaryJ65 you just amaze me with the things you have done. Who would have guessed?


And I haven't told you about the horror movies I starred!


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> And I haven't told you about the horror movies I starred!


Were you the monster or the hero who rescued the lovely heroine from the monster?


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## surfrider

GARYJ65 said:


> And I haven't told you about the horror movies I starred!


YOUR the one with the cow head on!.


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> Were you the monster or the hero who rescued the lovely heroine from the monster?


The monster of course!


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> The monster of course!


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


>


Pay was good though!


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## Jenner

I had the same doubts five years ago when I made the decision to retire early and move to Mexico. It has been a fast five years; I don't know where the time has gone but I can honestly say that retirement, even though my pension is small, is the best time of my life. Good luck with your decision no matter what it turns out to be.


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## theladygeorge48

Ask youself do love him and want to spend the rest of your life with him. The rest is details. Yes it is a huge change and the rewards will also be huge. Believe with your heart, do what you love the money will come. Good luck..


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## TigerFox

I don't live in Mexico. We are still in the US....for now. We expect to be moved before the end of this year, most likely Mexico. I realize this is a major move, HOWEVER, life is short. From my perspective, the quality of life in Mexico should be much better than what we have now in the US, due to the fact that the cost of living is lower there. From what I have read, you will actually experience more freedom there. Our US lives are very much controlled by the "State." You may not see that just yet.

Try to look at it as an exciting adventure.


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## surfrider

TigerFox said:


> I don't live in Mexico. We are still in the US....for now. We expect to be moved before the end of this year, most likely Mexico. I realize this is a major move, HOWEVER, life is short. From my perspective, the quality of life in Mexico should be much better than what we have now in the US, due to the fact that the cost of living is lower there. From what I have read, you will actually experience more freedom there. Our US lives are very much controlled by the "State." You may not see that just yet.
> 
> Try to look at it as an exciting adventure.


Life in Mexico is a major move. It is not only the cost of living that allows more freedom here than in the states. There is the social make up of the society. You leave behind (or rather you can if you want to) leave behind the items that the American society puts such high value on and you find rather than missing them - your liberated because you realize that they truly did not have value. 

Of course you can choose to live how ever you wish (usually limited by money) in Mexico and that also is one of the freedoms you have here. I guess if you wish to live in Mexico exactly the same way as you did in the states, you will probably produce in Mexico the same restrictions and stress that families often have in the states. 

A simple example of that is just with the water that is supplied into the home. I have a tank on the roof and the water is supplied by gravity into the house. Now if you want a water flow that is forceful and strong, you add a pump. With the pump you will pay electrical costs and add onto the financial requirements in Mexico. OR you just accept and get use to the soft water flow and pay no electrical cost. Things like that are choices you do have in Mexico and I do not think that those types of choices are available in the states.

I agree that the lives in the US are very tightly controlled as well as the peoples abilities. It is very sad but I do know that is true. I think that you will like Mexico on many different levels.


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## Isla Verde

surfrider said:


> I agree that the lives in the US are very tightly controlled as well as the peoples abilities. It is very sad but I do know that is true. I think that you will like Mexico on many different levels.


I like my life in Mexico but not particularly because I feel I have more freedom here than I did living in the States. Of course, since I am retired (_más o menos_), my time is more my own, though that would be true if I were still living in the States.


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## surfrider

Isla Verde said:


> I like my life in Mexico but not particularly because I feel I have more freedom here than I did living in the States. Of course, since I am retired (_más o menos_), my time is more my own, though that would be true if I were still living in the States.


I am not so sure about that Isla. Most of my friends that are retired have one or two jobs to met their expenses in the states. They can not live on their retirement unless they have owned their own home for years and their taxes are low and they are in California with Prop.13 restricting the tax increases. My friends who did not own their home prior to retirement, still have a mortgage to pay, or they have to pay high rent.

Mostly the freedom I was referring to pertains to the social system. In the US my son is considered disabled, here he is not in a social system that requires labeling and controlling of actions and behaviors to the same degree as the states social system does. There is no help here to really speak about = your on your own pretty much the same as everyone else. I find that attitude in society places more normal living conditions for him and of course because I am his Mother - the same goes for me. I had to account to the feds. and the states every month for this or that activity and here I do nothing. I had to interact with three different state, federal and county agencies with times - dates - purpose - for every movement we made. That was because the social system paid money to him and to me to run his program. We had to do this because the money was required to live or else I would have had to place him into a home and then they would get the money and do the accounting and recording. (and I would then have to get a job in the outside world(
Here in Mexico they could care less what he does or how he does it. However, his social security ck. is enough for his support here. He is accountable to himself and not a system. It is more real cause and effect of life here for him.


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## Longford

surfrider said:


> It is not only the cost of living that allows more freedom here than in the states. There is the social make up of the society. You leave behind (or rather you can if you want to) leave behind the items that the American society puts such high value on and you find rather than missing them - your liberated because you realize that they truly did not have value.


Really? You're going to stick with that statement? ;-) Interesting. I suppose a testament to that is the millions of Mexicans who disagree, and who have fled Mexico for the USA, and a few to Canada ... looking for the things you suggest they already have in Mexico. The 'grass' is not always 'greener' on the 'other side.'


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## ElPaso2012

No sage advice for you here, just what I hope is a practical suggestion to at least end the nearly constant debate that goes through your mind about the pros and cons of _Go Mexico_ versus _Stay Put_. It really gets old going over it and over it again in your thoughts and discussing it with family and friends, at least for me it has. 

My answer is to work tirelessly toward preparing to go, getting the property ready for sale, etc. while also realizing the moment that I sign it over to someone else, the decision is irrevocable. I don't have a home anymore. It might be the same for you and your husband in that if you _Go Mexico_ it would be hard to ever recreate the security you have on the US side again. It's a huge complicated decision. 

I'd say get ready to _Go Mexico_ but give yourself permission to _Stay Put_ if you change your mind. At least then both options will actually be on the table. Maybe a good solution is to postpone a final decision until they are.


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## ElPaso2012

Isla Verde said:


> Getting used to not working was the easiest part of the move to Mexico for me!


A hearty second to that sentiment!


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## Isla Verde

surfrider said:


> I am not so sure about that Isla. Most of my friends that are retired have one or two jobs to met their expenses in the states. They can not live on their retirement unless they have owned their own home for years and their taxes are low and they are in California with Prop.13 restricting the tax increases. My friends who did not own their home prior to retirement, still have a mortgage to pay, or they have to pay high rent.


I still work a little bit here, doing some private English teaching and the occasional translation or editing work. It's true that if I had stayed in the US, my two modest pensions wouldn't have afforded me the pleasant life I have here with or without continuing to work. I never owned a home in the US (nor do I own one here) and would have found a modestly-priced apartment to rent if I had stayed there, probably much like the one I have in Mexico City. However, as far as the notion of having more freedom in Mexico that you mentioned in a previous post, I don't buy that idea at all. Freedom in what sense?


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## AlanMexicali

Isla Verde said:


> I still work a little bit here, doing some private English teaching and the occasional translation or editing work. It's true that if I had stayed in the US, my two modest pensions wouldn't have afforded me the pleasant life I have here with or without continuing to work. I never owned a home in the US (nor do I own one here) and would have found a modestly-priced apartment to rent if I had stayed there, probably much like the one I have in Mexico City. However, as far as the notion of having more freedom in Mexico that you mentioned in a previous post, I don't buy that idea at all. Freedom in what sense?


Freedom to not show up when you said you would? 

I find it is a toss up here.

I found San Diego very liberal in regards to social restraints. For examples: You could go to a higher end restaurant in $10.00 flip flops, cargo shorts and a faded colorful shirt and no one gives you a second look. Here they possibly would not let you in. 

There you could show up at a barbeque or party with only yourself. Here you had more or less had better bring something for the host.

There you could not shave or bathe for a few days and nobody gave you a funny look. Here they will give you a funny look.

There they will tell you you are wrong if you state your personal beliefs to a few people and they don´t have your same beliefs. Here they will say nothing. 

There they will not allow you to take an hour or two off at work without going to the Dr. or a funeral. Here they will let you take 3 or 4 hours off to take your friends to the airport or bus terminal and have a lunch with them first. 

There once you finish your meal in any restaurant except a fast food joint they bother you until you leave. Here you can eat, finish and sit there for 2 hours and no one bothers you. etc.


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## surfrider

Longford said:


> Really? You're going to stick with that statement? ;-) Interesting. I suppose a testament to that is the millions of Mexicans who disagree, and who have fled Mexico for the USA, and a few to Canada ... looking for the things you suggest they already have in Mexico. The 'grass' is not always 'greener' on the 'other side.'



Yes, I am going to stick with that statement for my families situation it is true. My personal freedoms are different from yours. Mine has to do with disabilities and social and medical systems and having lived in that system in the US for over 40 years and been a part of it, I can assure you that MY family has more freedom here with in those two systems.

As far as millions of Mexicans who disagree - do they really? My personal feelings are that the Mexicans that leave Mexico for the states do so because they think that they can make more money in the states than they can here, because the wages are so low here. Most of my friends here in Mexico are Mexican and they have lived in the states because they wanted to make more money. As soon as they could they came back home. They also have expressed to me that they personally feel more freedom here than in the states. 

Maybe freedom is the wrong word to use - perhaps options and choices are better words. Freedom is defined as The condition of being free of restraints. For my son and for my family the social system and health system in the US had far too many restraints within the social system and we do not have that here in Mexico.


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## Hound Dog

_


surfrider said:



Yes, I am going to stick with that statement for my families situation it is true. My personal freedoms are different from yours. Mine has to do with disabilities and social and medical systems and having lived in that system in the US for over 40 years and been a part of it, I can assure you that MY family has more freedom here with in those two systems.

As far as millions of Mexicans who disagree - do they really? My personal feelings are that the Mexicans that leave Mexico for the states do so because they think that they can make more money in the states than they can here, because the wages are so low here. Most of my friends here in Mexico are Mexican and they have lived in the states because they wanted to make more money. As soon as they could they came back home. They also have expressed to me that they personally feel more freedom here than in the states. 

Maybe freedom is the wrong word to use - perhaps options and choices are better words. Freedom is defined as The condition of being free of restraints. For my son and for my family the social system and health system in the US had far too many restraints within the social system and we do not have that here in Mexico.

Click to expand...

_Interesting points surfrider. All of our family situations differ to some extent. For my wife, a native of France, moving to the U.S. in the 70s when she was in her twenties opened many doors for her that were sealed shut in the restrictive atmosphere of France and she thrived in the United States seizing many more business opportunities than would have been available to her in France. My promised land, on the other hand, was California and, like Chuck Berry. I caught that Midnight Flyer of of Birmingham heading for Los Angeles in 1966 and, first, Southern California and then Northern California were astounding lands of opportunity for a young guy in the 1960s through the 1990s. Hell, in the days I arrived in the vicinity of Santa Monica in 1966, they were practically throwing job offers out of job opportunity vans cruising down the street. Then, when you saved a little filthy lucre, you put it in the nearest savings and loan and earned 5.25% on the money you had in there even if that only came to a few bucks and they would throw in a free toaster to boot. In those days, you could open a new account in savings and loan associations, which sprung up on every corner in Metropolitan L.A., every day and take home another free toaster to the point that you could open a toaster store but you couldn´t sell any because every home in L.A. County already had their own free toasters to the point nobody ever wanted to see another toater as long as they lived.

We left California, and, more specifically, San Francisco, in 2001 because - and this is important - it made no sense to sell your home in the pricey Bay Area unless you were either going to leave there or move into a tent or a park and steal squirrel nuts. We thought seriously about moving to rural California which is not so expensive but California income taxes precluded that move. Then, Arizona came to mind briefly until we spent a week there - God what a dump and hot as hell. My native Alabama Gulf Coast seemed a good idea but there are negatives in a place where the cockroaches are so big they can steal your refrigerator in the middle of the night. So, in the final analysis, it came down to the highlands in etiher Colombia or Mexico and in those days, the Colombian Highlands were a bit antsy. 

We initially settled on the Lake Chapala area because of a supurb climate and fine lakeside beaches for walking mighty big mastiffs for kilometers at a time. Later we moved part time to Chiapas which is another universe from Lake Chapala. Freedom in Mexico strikes me as a nebulous concept. Most of the people we know in San Cristóbal de Las Casas are free to either work their butts off 20 hours a day for a few centavos or starve in a land where functionaries would rather spend limited resources on freeways for access to tourist atractions than access for people with mobility problems to street crossings or commercial establishment entrances.


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## TigerFox

surfrider said:


> I am not so sure about that Isla. Most of my friends that are retired have one or two jobs to met their expenses in the states. They can not live on their retirement unless they have owned their own home for years and their taxes are low and they are in California with Prop.13 restricting the tax increases. My friends who did not own their home prior to retirement, still have a mortgage to pay, or they have to pay high rent.
> 
> Mostly the freedom I was referring to pertains to the social system. In the US my son is considered disabled, here he is not in a social system that requires labeling and controlling of actions and behaviors to the same degree as the states social system does. There is no help here to really speak about = your on your own pretty much the same as everyone else. I find that attitude in society places more normal living conditions for him and of course because I am his Mother - the same goes for me. I had to account to the feds. and the states every month for this or that activity and here I do nothing. I had to interact with three different state, federal and county agencies with times - dates - purpose - for every movement we made. That was because the social system paid money to him and to me to run his program. We had to do this because the money was required to live or else I would have had to place him into a home and then they would get the money and do the accounting and recording. (and I would then have to get a job in the outside world(
> Here in Mexico they could care less what he does or how he does it. However, his social security ck. is enough for his support here. He is accountable to himself and not a system. It is more real cause and effect of life here for him.


Your description of what your situation was in the States is a perfect example of what I was referring to. Our lives are run by the State, even if we are not on any type of entitlement program. Here you need permission for everything, from what you are allowed to have in your home to what you consume (food) via regulations. Most of the population has been trained in this manner and it is seen as the norm now, so most people pay no attention to it. This is how our rights and freedoms have been removed, a little at a time. 

I do realize there are regulations in Mexico, however, much fewer as of now. I smile now when I hear that people have chickens and roosters on their property. I realize there are inconveniences to these things, but I choose freedom any day. People need to work any issues that come up amongst themselves. Excuse me, if I am rambling a bit, but I think this is part of the appeal of Mexico.


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## Isla Verde

Sure, there's lots of freedom in Mexico: freedom to avoid paying taxes, to bother your neighbors with loud music at all hours of the day and night, to disregard red lights and speed limits, to litter, to disregard others' rights if they inconvenience you a bit. Keep in mind that in spite of all this, I have a good life in Mexico.


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## ElPaso2012

TigerFox said:


> I do realize there are regulations in Mexico, however, much fewer as of now. I smile now when I hear that people have chickens and roosters on their property. I realize there are inconveniences to these things, but I choose freedom any day. People need to work any issues that come up amongst themselves. Excuse me, if I am rambling a bit, but I think this is part of the appeal of Mexico.


I can understand both sides of the arguments presented here regarding the relative personal freedom of the US versus Mexico (or Latin America in general). The societal turn we've made in the US towards authoritarianism since 9/11 has been astounding --- secret lists that people cannot get off of if placed on one, such as the No Fly list, the TSA violating all sense of personal privacy at airports, draconian legislation such as the Patriot Act and the 2012 NDAA which have turned our basic civil liberties into licenses versus inviolable rights, the militarization of every major city's police force, a national press that has become a PR organ for federal power, and now the Snowden revelations, which many in the IT industry have known about all along and find chilling to the bone. On the other hand, the government does not seem to have abusing these powers in any major way. For the moment we are still free, but anyone who loves history and personal liberty knows the dangers of giving any government this kind of power. 

Mexico has a horrible criminal justice system, rampant poverty by US standards, and a political system in which dissent and activism is a dangerous game for those who play it. But most Mexican people seem fairly happy and content with their lives to me, perhaps because there is no nanny state making it its business to tell them how to live, what to eat, how to build their houses, to drink or not to drink, to smoke or not to smoke, or to speak in a certain way or be publicly ostracized. The US in many ways has become a tyrrany of experts, academics, and control freaks that never cease trying to obtain more and more control over our daily lives. The Mexicans put up with none of this... 

So, I don't have a dog in this fight at all, but I do know that I _feel freer_ in Mexico, and I find more people in Mexico to be interesting to talk to. People here mostly pass the time with trivialities and talk mainly about themselves. Conversations so often are really just subtle games of one-upmanship. Thoughtful people are a rare find anymore. 
South of the border pleasant, thoughtful conversation seems more the norm to me, at least with the English speaking friends I have made there. All subjective perceptions, I admit, but that's all I really to work with when comparing the two countries.


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## ElPaso2012

Sorry for the typos in the previous post. The 15 minute time limit has expired, so I can't edit them out.


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## TigerFox

Longford said:


> Really? You're going to stick with that statement? ;-) Interesting. I suppose a testament to that is the millions of Mexicans who disagree, and who have fled Mexico for the USA, and a few to Canada ... looking for the things you suggest they already have in Mexico. The 'grass' is not always 'greener' on the 'other side.'


I think Mexicans move to the USA for economic reasons. Also, countries tend to treat non-citizens better than their own citizens. This is the concept of the PT (Permanent Traveler).


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## TigerFox

AlanMexicali said:


> Freedom to not show up when you said you would?
> 
> I find it is a toss up here.
> 
> I found San Diego very liberal in regards to social restraints. For examples: You could go to a higher end restaurant in $10.00 flip flops, cargo shorts and a faded colorful shirt and no one gives you a second look. Here they possibly would not let you in.
> 
> There you could show up at a barbeque or party with only yourself. Here you had more or less had better bring something for the host.
> 
> There you could not shave or bathe for a few days and nobody gave you a funny look. Here they will give you a funny look.
> 
> There they will tell you you are wrong if you state your personal beliefs to a few people and they don´t have your same beliefs. Here they will say nothing.
> 
> There they will not allow you to take an hour or two off at work without going to the Dr. or a funeral. Here they will let you take 3 or 4 hours off to take your friends to the airport or bus terminal and have a lunch with them first.
> 
> There once you finish your meal in any restaurant except a fast food joint they bother you until you leave. Here you can eat, finish and sit there for 2 hours and no one bothers you. etc.


Insofar as what you wear and bringing something to a host, these things fall under social pressure, customs, manners, not government regulated behavior/mandates.


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## TigerFox

Isla Verde said:


> Sure, there's lots of freedom in Mexico: freedom to avoid paying taxes, to bother your neighbors with loud music at all hours of the day and night, to disregard red lights and speed limits, to litter, to disregard others' rights if they inconvenience you a bit. Keep in mind that in spite of all this, I have a good life in Mexico.


Yes, all those are freedoms as they should be, in my opinions. I dislike the loud music, disregard for traffic signals, speed limits, litter and all of that. The problem has become that people look to government to solve these problems, and therefore, this is how we hand over control and loose freedom (and freedom to solve our own problems). Governments always abuse their power. People should not become criminals under the law because their are loud and inconsiderate.

The answer should be how we bring up and teach children; such things as consideration for others, respect, etc. It's a cultural problem evidently. I was not brought up to do these things. In fact, I find some of the behaviors of Americans rude and disrespectful. I had a European upbringing. Where I come from, young people are expected to give up their seats on buses and trains to adults, especially the elderly, as well as pregnant women. In fact, in the metro, they are allowed to board first. Also, to not use an elder's first name and yet this is common in the USA. So, once again, this is a matter of upbringing and not for government to regulate.


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## Hound Dog

Well, ElPaso2012, we left the United States in April, 2001 for retirement in Mexico and can´t speak diirectly about life in the U.S. after 9/11/2001 as we have only visited there briefly once since then and that was a short week long business trip to Santa Fe for an artisan´s fair. Actually, we did fly through there in 2007 on a flight from Guadalajara to Paris changing for the Paris flight in Chicago going and Dallas returning. We did that to save money on a promotion since there is daily non-stop service from Mexico City to Paris but after that experience with the TSA goons and the rudeness displayed by airport personnel in both Chicago and Dallas, we vowed to never fly back to France through the U.S. again no matter the fare savings. This is significant for us as we visit my wife´s home country of France often but never fly back to the U.S. if we can help it even though I am a U.S. citizen and my wife lived and worked in the U.S. for 40 years.

While I don´t agree with your premise, after 13 years of living in Mexico, that Mexican people are necessarily happier and more carefree than U.S. people or French people, I do believe that Osama Bin Laden and his fundamentalist friends and associates at least partially achieved their goal of turning the U.S. into more of a humorless police state than at any time. probably, since the McCarthy era but I must concede that the segregationist era Alabama in which I was raised in the 1940s through the mid-60s was also a repressive police state so this is nothing new to me or the United States. I and my wife are pleased to be out of there.

Since we are on that last subject of the racist police state in which I was raised, a little bit of history seems appropriate. The segregationist firebrand George Wallace was, in the 1950s a political liberal and populist who, in those days, deplored the injustices imposed on Alabama´s black citizens. He was a circuit judge in a rural Alabama county and first ran for governor in, I believe, 1958 only to lose that race to a wildly racist candidate named John Patterson. After he lost that race, he swore, "I´ll never be out-segged again." and he completely changed his political stance to become the infamous segregationist politician we all remember from the 1960s and 70s. It was all political opportunism he later regretted and in his later years he apologized to Alabama´s black community ( about 20% of the state´s total population) for his vulgar indiscretions and actually became, after that, a popular politician among Alabama´s black voters which is beautiful irony since he ad been a leader in trying to prevent their exercisig of thier voting rights back in the 60s. This is even more delicious irony when you realize that the margin of the vote for his last elective office in the state of Alabama was provided by his African- American constituency who voted for him in large numbers - the same African-Americans he had once fought to exclude from the voter roles. Great humor there.

He died a broken man publicly regretting his opportunistic political career and profusely apologizibg to Alabama´s black community.

However, here is something probably none of you know. In the 1950s, the state of Alabama required that all automobiles have both a front and rear license plate. Now I´m not making this up but in the 1960s, George Wallace decreed that in the future, only a rear license plate would be required and about the same time he changed the name of the Alabama Highway Patrol to the Alabama State Trooperes and took them out of their Greyhound Bus Driver billed hats and put them in intimidating uniforms with those Dudly DoRight Texas Trooper hats and he did these things for two reasons:
* So, ******** could put Confererate License Plates on the front bumpers of their pickup trucka to compliment those shotgun racks in th back windows.
* To (he imagined) scare the hell out of equal rights and voter rights demonstators marching in the streets by having highway patrolmen who resembled some fascist thugs you would see patrolling some Texas backwater along the Mexican border and threatening to shoot your butt off.

Alabama politics can be amusing but also a little bit scary. The same is true of Chiapas where I live today. You cannot escape human folly


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## surfrider

*freedom*

I will speak for myself only. I live in Mexico because I can afford to live here in a life style that is acceptable to me. I could not afford to live this same life style in the states. To me that is freedom.


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## AlanMexicali

TigerFox said:


> Insofar as what you wear and bringing something to a host, these things fall under social pressure, customs, manners, not government regulated behavior/mandates.


It affects my daily life and that is social restraints and customs I was talking about. I do not stay awake at night perceiving whether I "feel" free from the gov´t. restraints or not whether here or in the US. This does not affect how I feel on a daily basis. If I run into situations where rules need to be followed I don´t sweat it. I accept the fact that things have evolved the way they have even if it is not as easy as it was before. I have no need to turn back time. I have a desire to see things that are injustices repealed if it does not benefit most people but again this is political and has little affect on my daily life here.

Mexico was more of a "who cares" attitude 10 years ago and before but isn´t that anymore in many areas and this doesn't´t bother me as it is evolving into an industrialized country and when the "who cares" attitude prevails there are too many uncertainties that make it harder to do business on that level. 

Many rural and non industrialized areas still follow this past attitude and have little to lose by not accepting the restrictions set up where industrialized areas where the main concern and restraints where incorporated. You will notice this when travelling around. What is happening in one area is not happening in another area.

People living in towns and villages who perceive Mexico as that is all there is do not understand that is not that way they should perceive Mexico in total and other areas and underestimate the complex way rules and regulations vary in more important industrial areas where the main focus in on expanding the industrial base and advancing toward a more industrial economy where money/investing is spent there more than rural or non industrial states where agriculture, mining and logging and tourism are the main industries. 

Michoacán is a good example where it has gone into chaos because that state was not deemed important enough to take care of by the gov´t. Now it appear too late to do anything, for the time being.


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## surfrider

AlanMexicali said:


> It affects my daily life and that is social restraints and customs I was talking about. I do not stay awake at night perceiving whether I "feel" free from the gov´t. restraints or not whether here or in the US. This does not affect how I feel on a daily basis. If I run into situations where rules need to be followed I don´t sweat it. I accept the fact that things have evolved the way they have even if it is not as easy as it was before. I have no need to turn back time. I have a desire to see things that are injustices repealed if it does not benefit most people but again this is political and has little affect on my daily life here.
> 
> Mexico was more of a "who cares" attitude 10 years ago and before but isn´t that anymore in many areas and this doesn't´t bother me as it is evolving into an industrialized country and when the "who cares" attitude prevails there are too many uncertainties that make it harder to do business on that level.
> 
> Many rural and non industrialized areas still follow this past attitude and have little to lose by not accepting the restrictions set up where industrialized areas where the main concern and restraints where incorporated. You will notice this when travelling around. What is happening in one area is not happening in another area.
> 
> People living in towns and villages who perceive Mexico as that is all there is do not understand that is not that way they should perceive Mexico in total and other areas and underestimate the complex way rules and regulations vary in more important industrial areas where the main focus in on expanding the industrial base and advancing toward a more industrial economy where money/investing is spent there more than rural or non industrial states where agriculture, mining and logging and tourism are the main industries.
> 
> Michoacán is a good example where it has gone into chaos because that state was not deemed important enough to take care of by the gov´t. Now it appear too late to do anything, for the time being.


I am really interested in what you say about Michoacan. What do you mean about the gov. not considering that state important enough and why? I lived there and all I saw was Federals all over the place, road blocks with checks being made, police covering almost ever corner in Patzcuaro.

Mexico does change with each and every village and town and there are very complex ways of behavior that are attached to each place. That is one of the beauties - I think - of Mexico.


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## AlanMexicali

surfrider said:


> I am really interested in what you say about Michoacan. What do you mean about the gov. not considering that state important enough and why? I lived there and all I saw was Federals all over the place, road blocks with checks being made, police covering almost ever corner in Patzcuaro.
> 
> Mexico does change with each and every village and town and there are very complex ways of behavior that are attached to each place. That is one of the beauties - I think - of Mexico.


Noticias De Michoacan | La Policiaca - La Nota Roja De Mexico

It has been too late and too little to stop the chaos that now prevails there as many news reports have been saying for a couple of years. Seeing Federal Police and military around and road blocks is normal in many states. It has to do with what has transpired there for a long time.

I guess you were not in Patzcuaro the weekend the narcos took over the plaza there for several hours a few years ago.

There was a shootout this week in Tepatitlan, Jalisco near the Michoacán border where 4 police and 3 narcos were killed.


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## Isla Verde

TigerFox said:


> Also, countries tend to treat non-citizens better than their own citizens. This is the concept of the PT (Permanent Traveler).



Where did you get that idea from? I'm sure that all of the undocumented Mexicans living and working in the US would disagree with your statement. I've never heard of the concept of the PT - please explain.


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=surfrider;2017481]I am really interested in what you say about Michoacan. What do you mean about the gov. not considering that state important enough and why? I lived there and all I saw was Federals all over the place, road blocks with checks being made, police covering almost ever corner in Patzcuaro.

Mexico does change with each and every village and town and there are very complex ways of behavior that are attached to each place. That is one of the beauties - I think - of Mexico.[/QUOTE]_

I agree with surfrider´s above comment about the complex ways of behavior changing dramatically from place to place in Mexico. The inconsistencies and local complexities from town to town and region to region may be one of the beauties of Mexico but the inconsistencies and complexities are also its curse in my opinion. However, these complexities also make the nation an interesting place to live if often a bit edgy. 

Who´d have thought, when we moved to the Zapatista stronghold of San Cristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas and surrounds in 2006, the year Calderon ostensibly took on the cartels and thereby changed the appearance of reality, that we would feel more secure while living in Chiapas and driving all around that state to many quite obscure and often less-than-friendly places to strangers both foreign and Mexican, than taking our old drives from Lake Chapala to the beaches of Guerrero through Michoacan. 

Michoacan, like Sinaloa, has, it seems to me, always been a mountanous, outlaw land only marginally governed if governed by any centralized authority at all in certain remote areas - perhaps especially in the Tierra Caliente between the mountains and the sea. We still drive through Michoacan several times a year over the Guadalajara- Mexico City Cuota with no apprehension and would still not hesitate to visit urban area such as Patzcuaro, Morelia and Uruapan once in a while but we´ll lay off drives to the coast through the Tierra Caliente to visit our old Guerrero beach haunts for a while and opt for the beaches on the primitive Chiapas coast to run our dogs adjacent to the ocean on deserted beaches. It´s not that we are afraid to make that drive through the Tierra Caliente of Michoacan it´s just that the deserted beaches of Chiapas are just as nice so why tempt fate - the dogs don´t care what state we are in one way or the other and one thing we do know; if we come upon a Zapatista reten in Chiapas on our way from the highlands to the beach, we get through with a modest donation and a "Viva Zapata!". If we come upon a cartel reten in Michoacan, uncertainty prevails.


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## surfrider

Isla Verde said:


> Where did you get that idea from? I'm sure that all of the undocumented Mexicans living and working in the US would disagree with your statement. I've never heard of the concept of the PT - please explain.


They may or may not disagree but I have seen undocumented Mexicans living in the US that have received higher and more benefits form the social systems than Americans. Really. One case to show that was when the in home support service (IHSS) in California where family members of every person who lived at their family home had to be fingerprinted and a live scan FBI reports done. However there were aprox. over 45,000 undocumented Mexicans receiving IHSS that did not have to be fingerprinted and reports from the FBI run. Those 45,000 undocumented "families" some how get into the IHSS system, just how many people received money from that system within those families I do not know. I know this because of the work that I did with this population.
Now that is not to say that the Mexicans in the US have a great life style - they do not. For most of them it is very hard...at least the ones I worked with - that was my impression. I have also seen many undocumented Mexicans in the US without any assistance and struggling very hard to make ends met and living in fear of deportation. What their lives were like in Mexico I do not know but I am sure that most Americans in the US and in Mexico could not relate. Most of them truly did not like the US and regardless of what their life was like in Mexico wanted to go home but did not have the money to do so. I do not have any experience with what happens in deportation but I know that no Mexican wants to go through it.


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## TundraGreen

surfrider said:


> They may or may not disagree but I have seen undocumented Mexicans living in the US that have received higher and more benefits form the social systems than Americans. Really. One case to show that was when the in home support service (IHSS) in California where family members of every person who lived at their family home had to be fingerprinted and a live scan FBI reports done. However there were aprox. over 45,000 undocumented Mexicans receiving IHSS that did not have to be fingerprinted and reports from the FBI run. Those 45,000 undocumented "families" some how get into the IHSS system, just how many people received money from that system within those families I do not know. I know this because of the work that I did with this population.
> Now that is not to say that the Mexicans in the US have a great life style - they do not. For most of them it is very hard...at least the ones I worked with - that was my impression. I have also seen many undocumented Mexicans in the US without any assistance and struggling very hard to make ends met and living in fear of deportation. What their lives were like in Mexico I do not know but I am sure that most Americans in the US and in Mexico could not relate. Most of them truly did not like the US and regardless of what their life was like in Mexico wanted to go home but did not have the money to do so. I do not have any experience with what happens in deportation but I know that no Mexican wants to go through it.


Where do those numbers (45,000 undocumented in In-Home Support Services) come from. I am not disputing it, just curious where it came from.

I found one, somewhat dated, report on the subject of undocumented access to health care and other services. https://kaiserfamilyfoundation.file...-on-access-to-health-care-services-report.pdf

They studied two counties in California. They found that 9% of the undocumented families received support for Aid to Families with Dependent Children in Fresno County and 18% in LA county. And they point out that many of these families may have children that are US citizens. For other programs, the numbers of undocumented receiving help were much smaller, around 1%.


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## surfrider

TundraGreen said:


> Where do those numbers (45,000 undocumented in In-Home Support Services) come from. I am not disputing it, just curious where it came from.
> 
> I found one, somewhat dated, report on the subject of undocumented access to health care and other services. https://kaiserfamilyfoundation.file...-on-access-to-health-care-services-report.pdf
> 
> They studied two counties in California. They found that 9% of the undocumented families received support for Aid to Families with Dependent Children in Fresno County and 18% in LA county. And they point out that many of these families may have children that are US citizens. For other programs, the numbers of undocumented receiving help were much smaller, around 1%.


I organized a union for the state of California for the in home health care workers so that they could receive health care ins. for themselves. The numbers I gave you were taken off the list of that union - those who wanted to receive health care ins. and were caring for someone that was in the IHSS program. This number was for all of California.


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## surfrider

surfrider said:


> I organized a union for the state of California for the in home health care workers so that they could receive health care ins. for themselves. The numbers I gave you were taken off the list of that union - those who wanted to receive health care ins. and were caring for someone that was in the IHSS program. This number was for all of California.


 It is the care providers that I am referring to. The consumer or person who is in the IHSS program is the person who receives the care, not the giver of the care. The person who provides the care is the care provider and they are not in the IHSS program. While the state pays them directly, the state makes the person receiving the care and who is in the IHSS program be the employer so that the providers are not documented as employees of the state and there for do not receive any benefits from the state. I personally think that the whole system is illegal in the way that it operates. The care providers are in a limbo position of employment rights, but yet the state has them as employees of the person receiving the care with the county as the employer of record for income tax purpose. 

Also note that these numbers are from oh years ago not current by any means. Each county in California runs their own program and they all pay a different amount to the care providers, some even under min. wage and some without any health care. No one cares or controls how many hours a care provider works and there is basically no supervision or responsible party for the actions of the care providers.

As far as the states figures goes - I would not trust them for anything. In 2009 I think - there was this huge number reported from the state on fraud cases within the IHSS system. The controller for the state said that there were three cases.??? Also the regional centers in the state of California reported that they served x number of people and the next year the reported a decrease by about 100,000. I forget the exact numbers but it was a huge decrease. All of a sudden all those folks from the prior year just did not need service any more??


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## regwill

If you have not lived in the states in the past 5 or 8 years in some of the big cities , you have know idea of how the system is being abused ! The left panders to the people and the right panders to big business . I worked for a subsidiary of the largest retailer in the world , and you would not believe how many people would shop are store the first 5 to 7 days of the month , some drove nicer cars than me ,some did not , and i worked for the company 21 years . The system is broke and all i can say is that there are no easy answer !! 
p.s. my last ten were in denver .


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