# Scam



## pilib (Dec 8, 2012)

GHEH200/11: House advertised by owner: /SNIP/

The following email (below) I posted to /SNIP/ on 28.03.2011. I have not received an answer. 

Pilib


Dear Sir/Madam

After having arranged with the owner (email exchanges that can be provided, travel tickets, hotel receipts etc.) of the property on your website GHEH200/11 in Podentes, the vendor informed me that the house was sold after it was arranged that I would see the property at 11 a.m on March 21 from where I was staying at Miranda do Corvo (near to Podentes).
Before travelling,I had already obtained the services of a lawyer: (Nuno Rocha) in Coimbra prior to this, in order to have the smooth flow of the purchase. I only had to do some inspections before placing a cash offer (if I felt it necessary) as agreed by the vendor (email).

I really liked the property (by the extra photos the vendor emailed me) and was set to buy, the reason I visited Portugal in the first instant.

In all, the cost of this amounted to 3000+ Euros at no expense whatsoever to the vendor, except her statement (when I had already been in Potugal) of a blind lie that the property was sold (still advertised on your site as of 28 03. 2013, care of:
/SNIP/

I intend to take this serious issue further and have many options at my disposal to choose from.


Yours faithfully

Philip Toal


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

It might have been listed with another agent and sold there, not sure why you seem to think there's a scam, as you hadn't viewed the property, made a formal offer, dealt direct with vendor as the property is clearly shown as advertised by the owner who can sell or withdraw their property until the've actually signed a Promissory Note, I don't see that Geeko have any responsibility, annoying for you but that's a risk we all take when viewing, any problem you have should be with seller


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

Did you honestly expect the vendor to refuse an offer from another party just on the basis that you liked it on the internet and MIGHT place an offer once you had seen it?
When a property is advertised it remains on the market until such time as a deposit it paid. The vendor had every right to sell it on a first come first served basis. The fact that it is still advertised elsewhere simply means that the vendor has probably not yet informed all the agents that it was with that it is sold. How does this constitute a scam?
As for having secured the services of a lawyer and making the trip to Portugal, you now have the lawyer in place for any future purchase you might make and there was nothing stopping you doing some viewings of other properties while you were there.


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## pilib (Dec 8, 2012)

In reply to


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

pilib said:


> In reply to


?????????????????????????????????????


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## pilib (Dec 8, 2012)

Veronica said:


> Did you honestly expect the vendor to refuse an offer from another party just on the basis that you liked it on the internet and MIGHT place an offer once you had seen it?
> When a property is advertised it remains on the market until such time as a deposit it paid. The vendor had every right to sell it on a first come first served basis. The fact that it is still advertised elsewhere simply means that the vendor has probably not yet informed all the agents that it was with that it is sold. How does this constitute a scam?
> As for having secured the services of a lawyer and making the trip to Portugal, you now have the lawyer in place for any future purchase you might make and there was nothing stopping you doing some viewings of other properties while you were there.


The property has not been sold and this is the point that you miss, rendering a deposit out of the equation.


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

If the property has not been sold why would the vendor tell you it has?
Also why is the company who is advertising it responsible for this? How is this a scam?

Makes no sense.


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## pilib (Dec 8, 2012)

Veronica said:


> Did you honestly expect the vendor to refuse an offer from another party just on the basis that you liked it on the internet and MIGHT place an offer once you had seen it?
> When a property is advertised it remains on the market until such time as a deposit it paid. The vendor had every right to sell it on a first come first served basis. The fact that it is still advertised elsewhere simply means that the vendor has probably not yet informed all the agents that it was with that it is sold. How does this constitute a scam?
> As for having secured the services of a lawyer and making the trip to Portugal, you now have the lawyer in place for any future purchase you might make and there was nothing stopping you doing some viewings of other properties while you were there.


I did view other properties when I was there,, There wasn`t a deposit paid by anyone, rendering the property as unsold. which is the point that you miss.
As everyone knows, deposits are accepted when offers are agreed by both parties and it wasn`t a case of MIGHT place one.
However, phantom offers, estate agents and similar ilk are becoming heavily scrutinized by the authorities in my country, a similar practice to the good fortune of the portuguese people in the not so far off future, doubtless.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

With respect how do you know the property wasn't sold, deposit paid, withdrawn from sale etc? just because it's still advertised? I could equally tell you about another property (not the same one) in that area advertised by owner on a number of different sites who just didn't reply to any request for further information, viewings, from interested parties or the sites and yet is still for sale? sorry but I really don't understand your problem it's an issue, problem faced by anyone looking to buy and equally a problem faced by agents and vendors from _buyers_


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## pilib (Dec 8, 2012)

canoeman said:


> With respect how do you know the property wasn't sold, deposit paid, withdrawn from sale etc? just because it's still advertised? I could equally tell you about another property (not the same one) in that area advertised by owner on a number of different sites who just didn't reply to any request for further information, viewings, from interested parties or the sites and yet is still for sale? sorry but I really don't understand your problem it's an issue, problem faced by anyone looking to buy and equally a problem faced by agents and vendors from _buyers_


It wouldn`t be an issue with certain estate agents, and that is the problem.
I will carry this matter outside of this website to the potential market in Ireland, Portugal and elsewhere, and in the process, name sources to be avoided.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Maybe you should first look up the definition of words such as scam, libel, slander, before you name people whether here or elsewhere. I'm afraid to me you've not substantiated anything underhand just an annoyance that the property is still advertised which is down to vendor to remove


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

I am still puzzled why you think this is some sort of scam?
Has anyone asked you for money? No, quite the opposite.

Can you explain where the scam is, how it works? 
I can't see any scam here at all.

You come onto a public website and openly accuse a company of perpetrating a scam. If a moderator had not removed the name of the company you could have found yourself liable to being sued for lible.

Why can't you just accept that the property you wanted is not available to you and look for something else instead of making such a big issue about it?


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## pilib (Dec 8, 2012)

Liability risk through scaremongering is not an issue for me, as I know the primary/financial concern of the moderator(s).
Off little revelation however, an email contact with an expat from this site shares a different view.


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## Veronica (Apr 5, 2008)

As you seem unwilling (or unable) to say just what sort of scam is being perpetrated I think I am wasting my valuable time even bothering to talk to you


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

pilib said:


> Liability risk through scaremongering is not an issue for me, as I know the primary/financial concern of the moderator(s).
> Off little revelation however, an email contact with an expat from this site shares a different view.


what's the _primary financial concern of the moderator(s)_

mine's teaching Spanish 


so I'm afraid you've lost me there.....


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## pilib (Dec 8, 2012)

canoeman said:


> Maybe you should first look up the definition of words such as scam, libel, slander, before you name people whether here or elsewhere. I'm afraid to me you've not substantiated anything underhand just an annoyance that the property is still advertised which is down to vendor to remove


Scam - to mislead, pertaining to cheat

Liable - (spelt that way) 

I used the term SCAM only.

As in my first email, I wrote to Gekko receiving no reaction in return and that justifies anyones`s opinion who would experience a similar ordeal.
A culture of excessive -back patting- is certainly the rule here among moderators, estate agents, steering clear of issues that may place the latter (especially) into any form of scrutiny.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

I looked up property you refereed to on their site as it's clearly shown as advertised by seller then any argument you have is with the seller, you might have only used term Scam but your other remarks as have been pointed out are questionable to say the least.

I really fail to see what you are hoping to accomplish by pursuing something you can't substantiate.


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## pilib (Dec 8, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> what's the _primary financial concern of the moderator(s)_
> 
> mine's teaching Spanish
> 
> ...


And mine is teaching French and German, allowing my students to moderate. I rest my case.


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## loonytoon (Feb 11, 2009)

i am a little slow and am having great difficulty (alongside Canoeman and Veronica methinks) understanding this thread. let me see if i have got it right.

you saw a house advertised that you liked the look of.
you made contact with an estate agent (or were they an advertising agent? they are totally different things)
you arranged to come over for a viewing (arranged with the agent or owner of the property?)
you got here then on the day of the viewing found that the property was sold
you are unhappy about this because it cost E3000 for your trip
you expect someone to refund this - who? the owner or the agent?

now i don't know much about contract law in whichever country you live or Portugal but i presume it won't be much different than in the UK. here, if you offer something for sale, you can do what you like up to the point of sale (which is at the exchange of contracts, either verbal or on paper). up to that point, the vendor can do what they like up to and including withdrawing the offer for sale, amending the price or look cross eyed at you if they wish. whether you like it or not is your problem as nobody is forcing you to buy the thing. 

the fact that you chose to travel to Portugal without exchanging contracts on the off chance that you may buy this property was a decision you made for whatever reason and seeing as the vendor does not appear to have agreed in advance to reimburse your expenses i am not at all sure what your problem is. 

i suppose the nearest example i can think of is you se a car advertised a couple of hours away from where you live. you ring and arrange to go look at it and set off with a pocket full of cash, all ready to buy it if it matches up with your expectations. 2 hours later you get there only to find it has been sold 30 minutes ago. do you expect the vendor to pay you your petrol money? i think not.

as Canoeman says, you do not know (although you may suspect) if the property really was sold (despite the ongoing advertising). ongoing advertising does not constitute a scam. it may well be inefficiency but that is hardly a crime in this case. 

i really do think you should be careful with this unless something else has gone on that you haven't mentioned in this thread as the word 'LIBEL' (deliberately spelt that way) will become a major influence on your life and your E3000 will probably pale into insignificance compared to the amount you may well have to pay out but it is your money so spend it how you want.

jeff


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## pilib (Dec 8, 2012)

loonytoon said:


> i am a little slow and am having great difficulty (alongside Canoeman and Veronica methinks) understanding this thread. let me see if i have got it right.
> 
> you saw a house advertised that you liked the look of.
> you made contact with an estate agent (or were they an advertising agent? they are totally different things)
> ...


Hi Jeff

The point I was trying to make was that after I informed the advertising agent/estate agent of the sale of the property to another buyer through the vendor, the advertising agent/estate agent did not confirm this to me by pursuing the matter in asking the vendor if this in fact was the case.
In short, I did not receive any confirmation of this by the advertising agent/estate agent and the property was still advertised for sale on their site. That being the case, anyone would take the same opinion. 
The financial loss is secondary. Primary being: that this could instigate discussion on this site or awareness elsewhere apart to other people, of certain risks involved. Instead I have only received "moderator" responses critical of my attitude, reinforcing my convictions.

I would have left the whole matter, putting the experience just down to tough titty on me or other poor beings of the same calibre, had the estate agent/advertising agent confirmed the sale - no more than that. 
If an estate/advertising agency depends on public finance directly/indirectly then they should maintain standards justifying it.

Philip 



Regards

Philip


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Sorry, I've been critical of your attitude and I'm not a Moderator. 

As you felt strongly you should have then pursued matter with either the Vendor or the site not make a public post stating a scam is operating, I don't know the Vendor or the owners of the site personally but I do know the site owner/s have answered and posted much useful information to anyone contemplating buying in Portugal here and on their site.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

pilib said:


> Hi Jeff
> 
> The point I was trying to make was that after I informed the advertising agent/estate agent of the sale of the property to another buyer through the vendor, the advertising agent/estate agent did not confirm this to me by pursuing the matter in asking the vendor if this in fact was the case.
> In short, I did not receive any confirmation of this by the advertising agent/estate agent and the property was still advertised for sale on their site. That being the case, anyone would take the same opinion.
> ...


just to make one thing clear - when moderators post here, we are posting as 'people' - it's only when we are 'moderating' that the badge comes into play

generally the moderating is done privately, & afaik no moderator has 'moderated' you

the property agent you are talking about is a private business - nothing to do with this forum - if they conduct their business badly then they will obviously lose out in the long run


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## siobhanwf (Mar 20, 2009)

With house buying I am afraid it is a case of "welcome to Portugal" you were very lucky that it was only €3000 that you are out of pocket with expenses. 

I know of several people who have placed a deposit on a property (one in particular in excess of €30,000) and not been able to proceed or get the deposit back.


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