# Why...some of us stay and others go?



## Guest (Aug 20, 2010)

There is much “Spaniard bashing” on this site. And most of the critics correspond to the truth. But as Pesky Wesky did write me in private message, we sometime have a tendency to generalize. I agree that this is a bad thing in every domain. It provokes discrimination, racism and many other negative human behaviors. I personally think that the problem in Spain is that most expats come from northern countries, which are very different from the Mediterranean’s. So considering this fact, we are actually the problem! A friend, also expat in Spain, told me once “Europe stops at the Pyrenees”. Spanish mentality is much closer to the South American one (in good and in bad) as to the northern European. So, considering this other fact, it is normal that expats from England, Switzerland, Germany, Netherlands and Scandinavia are sometime disturbed by the remaining third world aspects of Spain. Especially considering that Spain, during many years, did receive high amounts of money in help from the E.U. and is not a cheap country to live anymore (Germany for example has a cheaper cost of living and higher salaries).

So there is left: The beauty of the country, the more relaxed life style (for those who have enough money…), fruits, vegetables, beaches, swimming pools and of course the good climate. But, as the number of foreigners who leave Spain every year proves, this seems to not be enough. So you could ask me, why I stay here? For all the reasons written before, because my wife and my child are Asian and there is more xenophobia in Switzerland (my home country) as in Spain. And last but not least because Switzerland has one of the highest costs of living in the world. So, considering all the + and – for a family who does not need to work for a living, we are better off in Spain, despite being critic to many things over here.
Sorry if my English is not so good, but my native languages are German and French


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Is there much/any Spanish bashing on here????? I havent noticed! 

Anyway I love the "third worldness" of Spain, I love the lack of order, both natural and manmade. I stay here because I like the climate, the views, the smells, the palm trees, the people, the relaxed lifestyle...... The whole package and all the things that make it different from England. Thats not to say I dont appreicate what the UK has, cos having lived away from it for a few years, I can now see the benefits of living there. But to me the grey, small and claustrophic feeling one gets in the UK are nothing compared to being in Spain.

However, there is no doubt that the UK looks after its people - too well sometimes and it has to be said that coming to Spain to live is not the easy option and its not like an extended holiday in the sun

Jo xxx


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2010)

jojo said:


> Is there much/any Spanish bashing on here????? I havent noticed!
> 
> Anyway I love the "third worldness" of Spain, I love the lack of order, both natural and manmade. I stay here because I like the climate, the views, the smells, the palm trees, the people, the relaxed lifestyle...... The whole package and all the things that make it different from England. Thats not to say I dont appreicate what the UK has, cos having lived away from it for a few years, I can now see the benefits of living there. But to me the grey, small and claustrophic feeling one gets in the UK are nothing compared to being in Spain.
> 
> ...


Jojo, yes there is "Spanish bashing" here, at least what I understand under this words. I could go in to details and citations, but I think it is not necessary.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Culture shock works both ways. I know Spanish people who have lived in England and are horrified by certain aspects of English culture - for example, when grandparents stay at home to babysit the children while the parents go out for a meal, whereas in Spain the whole family will go out together. And when the grandparents get too old to be useful, they are put into a residential home rather than coming to live with the rest of the family.

Jo, I completely agree with you up to the last sentence "there is no doubt that the UK looks after its people" - with 25% cuts in government spending on social welfare on the way, I fear this is likely to be a thing of the past. Maybe society will roll back to the family caring for its own, what you might call "the Spanish way"? Certainly people will have to be a lot more self-sufficient, as there will be some enormous holes in the safety-net provided by the State.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Eva33 said:


> Jojo, yes there is "Spanish bashing" here, at least what I understand under this words. I could go in to details and citations, but I think it is not necessary.


Eva, I looked at many expat forums before choosing this one to contribute to, and believe me there is far less Spanish-bashing here. If anybody does start whingeing, people like Jo will gently guide them back on track ...


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> Jo, I completely agree with you up to the last sentence "there is no doubt that the UK looks after its people" - with 25% cuts in government spending on social welfare on the way, I fear this is likely to be a thing of the past. Maybe society will roll back to the family caring for its own, what you might call "the Spanish way"? Certainly people will have to be a lot more self-sufficient, as there will be some enormous holes in the safety-net provided by the State.



Yes but the ss system in the UK has not only bred a generation of people who actually dont understand how to work/look after themselves, but its been exploited badly. It needs sorting thats for sure and hopefully the cuts will be made without affecting those people who genuinely need a safety net!!!!!!!

Jo xxx


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Eva33,

You say Spaniards have are closer to the South American mentality, no, I disagree, it is the other way round. Spain was in existence long before South America was discovered and was colonised by mainly the Spanish and Portuguese. So the South American Mentality is in fact closer to the Spanish.

When I was a young man, I spent time in Argentina, I have Argentinian friends here and was taught by an Argentinian lady teacher. I have neighbours from Venezuela, and know a family from Ecuador, the differences between them and the Spanish peninsular people and the Canary Island people are minimal. I think they are all "muy simpáticos" 

For me the cost of living here, is far far cheaper than when I lived in England for example,

Diesel 73 cents a litre, Lager 1.60 to 2 €, fruit and veg., next to nothing, taxes to the Ayuntamiento half price, bus tickets 1€ to anywhere, cigarettes 90cents a packet, (I do not smoke) You cannot get these prices in England.

I have never noticed the Spanish Bashing, only poor old Telefonica.

There is nothing wrong with your English I wish my Spanish was in the same league.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Hepa said:


> Eva33,
> 
> You say Spaniards have are closer to the South American mentality, no, I disagree, it is the other way round. Spain was in existence long before South America was discovered and was colonised by mainly the Spanish and Portuguese. So the South American Mentality is in fact closer to the Spanish.
> 
> ...


In defence of telefonica, we once had a little chap out from them to sort out a problem with our phone and he was lovely! Efficient, friendly and helpful........... and very good looking lol!!!!!

Jo xxx


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

......... can I just add? I had know idea that you werent British Eva!!!!! You are very, very good with your written English!

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> Yes but the ss system in the UK has not only bred a generation of people who actually dont understand how to work/look after themselves, but its been exploited badly. It needs sorting thats for sure and hopefully the cuts will be made without affecting those people who genuinely need a safety net!!!!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Yes there are many people on welfare who are fit to work (just as there are many tax dodgers). But at this point in time there are no jobs available in many areas of high welfare dependency. Plus, as has been pointed out above, the Coalition is intending to make cuts of at least 25% in public sector spending which will add another 100000 a year to the number of jobless - not my figures, theirs in the Budget Book.
So....another 100000 a year on welfare....,as the private sector is highly unlikely to be able to produce the number of new jobs needed in the timescale required.
There is more to be collected in unpaid corporate tax than is defrauded in welfare benefits but the poor, stupid and lazy are an easy target - I often have a go at them myself but I try to be evenhanded.
Today's revelations about the non-UK tax status of the would-have-been Tory Party Treasurer David Rowland is as scandalous as the amount skimmed off in benefit fraud, not to mention the £1.25 billion dividend paid to Philip Green via his wife who has an address in Monaco to avoid UK tax. And the Government has asked him to advise on how to save money for the taxpayer....You couldn't make it up.
The proposed cuts are more likely than not to lead the UK into a double-dip recession, I fear. Recent data on consumer and business confidence point to this and the Office of Budget Responsibility has downgraded the Government's growth projection.
Spain bashing.....rarely seen here. There is a forum (not allowed to name it)which seems to be the preserve of embittered old Brit twerps who have lost money on off-plan and illegal developments, largely through their own cupidity and stupidity but of course they blame Spanish lawyers, politicians, developers etc. etc. rather than consider their own role in their misfortune.
We tend to have a go at the sillier kind of would-be British immigrant who seems to think that with few if any skills, no knowledge of Spanish and often a seemingly poor grasp of their native tongue they can escape their unhappy life in the UK and live 'the dream' (whatever that is) in the sun which they imagine shines for 365 days of the year.
Expect a rash of posts from such people as a) the holiday may be over but the snaps and memories remain b) winter draws on and c) the cuts will put many more on the dole as I said above.
I am sorry for many of these people but wonder how they can be so ignorant of the economic situation in Spain.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

I like this thread, agree with some of it, and as always love Mary's detailed arguments but correct me if I'm wrong but every contributor is either wealthy independent of spain, retired, and/or reliant on UK income.

I like several on here have a spanish family thus my views will be I think distinct from other groups.

I guess the third group is those expats who are dependent on the spanish economy to survive.

Just wondered if when one talks about critising aspects of spain it might be beneficial to understand where folks are coming from.

I have no complaints here and think in general a fair balance exists and people tend to be polite. But that hasn't stopped good discussion of some sensitive issues and worse still political issues. Long may it be so 

I understand that most expats who want to be in Spain will defend the spanish system, even if they are independent of it, and to counter this some realism needs to be injected. We are very lucky here to have a good mix of the 3 groups I mentioned above.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

> I looked at many expat forums before choosing this one to contribute to, and believe me there is far less Spanish-bashing here. If anybody does start whingeing, people like Jo will gently guide them back on track ...


I looked around too alcalaina and liked this forum 'cos a lot of people contribute, it's great reading everyone's different viewpoints, the vast majority of people are polite and the mods are great (!!??)



> Just wondered if when one talks about critising aspects of spain it might be beneficial to understand where folks are coming from.
> 
> I have no complaints here and think in general a fair balance exists and people tend to be polite. But that hasn't stopped good discussion of some sensitive issues and worse still political issues. Long may it be so


That's so true nigele, and I didn't really realise how different my situation is from others, until coming on here.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2010)

nigele2 said:


> I like this thread, agree with some of it, and as always love Mary's detailed arguments but correct me if I'm wrong but every contributor is either wealthy independent of spain, retired, and/or reliant on UK income.
> 
> I like several on here have a spanish family thus my views will be I think distinct from other groups.
> 
> ...


Good post! I actually wanted to drop out this discussion, despite the fact that I did start the thread. Just one thing, there is actually in this forum a fourth group to which I do belong: Non British, Not reliable on UK income, but also Not dependent on a Spanish income and No Spanish family (my wife is from the Philippines, where I also did live for a few years). I guess there are more people in a more or less similar group as me, but they probably stop being active after a while, because this group seems to be only British.

Your own background, from where you coming from, how many other countries you know, how long you did stay in the country and how much you really know about politic, culture and history can make a huge difference in your views and your comments.
And the most important in your post is: “Just wondered if when one talks about criticizing aspects of Spain it might be beneficial to understand where folks are coming from”. I would add: how long expats have lived here and how much they really know about Spain, besides palm trees, beaches etc. etc. Also the lack of knowledge of Spanish language, which I did notice from many Brits who live in my region (Costa Blanca) seems to be a big handicap to really know much about Spain.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I'm not British. Mainly English but with a Irish ancestor.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Eva33 said:


> Good post! I actually wanted to drop out this discussion, despite the fact that I did start the thread. Just one thing, there is actually in this forum a fourth group to which I do belong: Non British, Not reliable on UK income, but also Not dependent on a Spanish income and No Spanish family (my wife is from the Philippines, where I also did live for a few years). I guess there are more people in a more or less similar group as me, but they probably stop being active after a while, because this group seems to be only British.
> 
> Your own background, from where you coming from, how many other countries you know, how long you did stay in the country and how much you really know about politic, culture and history can make a huge difference in your views and your comments.
> And the most important in your post is: “Just wondered if when one talks about criticizing aspects of Spain it might be beneficial to understand where folks are coming from”. I would add: how long expats have lived here and how much they really know about Spain, besides palm trees, beaches etc. etc.



I dont see it as criticizing Spain. I see it as observations and differences in culture. I know a fair bit about Spanish history, I have studied the franco years nd the moors (well my son has and I've helped) and altho I may know more about the UK , I dont think that knowledge of the full history of a country is essential to living there! I would imagine that there are plenty of Spanish who havent bothered to understand their history - in fact there are alot who dont want to know as its still quite raw with them.

However, like it or not, Spain is now part of the EU, an allegiance that they have benefited from financially and joined willingly and so they are part of europe and as europeans we are now all growing together - well thats the idea. 

As for spanish bashing, well as you can see there are a few posters who have spanish families and are for all intents and purposes Spanish. I'm sure knowing them that they would soon object if we were insulting their famillies creed and culture - I rely on it lol!!!!

Jo xxx


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## Seb* (Mar 22, 2009)

Eva33 said:


> Good post! I actually wanted to drop out this discussion, despite the fact that I did start the thread. Just one thing, there is actually in this forum a fourth group to which I do belong: Non British, Not reliable on UK income, but also Not dependent on a Spanish income and No Spanish family (my wife is from the Philippines, where I also did live for a few years). I guess there are more people in a more or less similar group as me, but they probably stop being active after a while, because this group seems to be only British.


 I am from Germany, but have been living nearly four years in the UK and with my wife being british feel connected to the country. Still I would not count myself as a brit  So I think there are more of us.



> Also the lack of knowledge of Spanish language, which I did notice from many Brits who live in my region (Costa Blanca) seems to be a big handicap to really know much about Spain.


This seems to be one of the biggest issues. And it does not only affect Brits, I see the same issues with Germans, Swiss, Netherlands. Every time the person infront of me in the queue at Mercadona speaks english or german to the shop assistent I cringe. It is not hard to learn at least some basic spanish sentences to finish your weekly shop without appearing to be rude. This by the way is what I would describe as basic integrating in Spain. Get a basic grasp of the language and don´t expect your host to speak your language. I remember the heated outrage I experienced in the UK and Germany when immigrants did not speak the local language (" they live in our country, so they should at least speak our language").


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2010)

Seb* said:


> I am from Germany, but have been living nearly four years in the UK and with my wife being british feel connected to the country. Still I would not count myself as a brit  So I think there are more of us.


Ach, da bin ich aber glücklich



Seb* said:


> This seems to be one of the biggest issues. And it does not only affect Brits, I see the same issues with Germans, Swiss, Netherlands. Every time the person infront of me in the queue at Mercadona speaks english or german to the shop assistent I cringe. It is not hard to learn at least some basic spanish sentences to finish your weekly shop without appearing to be rude. This by the way is what I would describe as basic integrating in Spain. Get a basic grasp of the language and don´t expect your host to speak your language. I remember the heated outrage I experienced in the UK and Germany when immigrants did not speak the local language (" they live in our country, so they should at least speak our language").


YES!!!


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## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

Hi,
I don't think many of us would describe ourselves as Brits… that is a whole other thread though! But since it is an English speaking forum and most English speakers in Spain are Brits, it is logical that most on the forum will be. That doesn’t mean it should be and it’s always good to hear from other English speakers who are not from the UK. There are cultural differences between native English speakers (Brits, Americans, Australians, Canadians and Kiwis) and if I were to move to the US, I am certain I would experience cultural differences to some extent too. I don’t think many South Americans would be happy about being grouped together with Spanish people though, and I don’t think many Spanish would be happy about Spain being considered part of the third world. And I don’t think anyone has said that here, have they?
It’s great to have different nationalities on this forum and great to have a lot of different people with different experiences, some of whom have lived in countries other than the UK.

Even given cultural differences, there are always things different about the systems, some good and some bad. However, I don’t think there is anything wrong with pointing out these differences. There may be generalizations, they may depend on which part of Spain we live, what our circumstances are, and what our experiences are. But that does not make them invalid. In fact, they can be very useful to the people who are reading this forum and considering moving here!

As it happens, when I first came here I used to moan about the huge queues for a doctor's appointment. But so did Spanish people! It’s not “disloyal”, it’s just wanting things to improve. Nowadays, we have a system where you can actually book an appointment on the internet or even by text message! So some things _have_ improved, and are much better than the UK.

While I agree that there are many Europeans who don’t learn Spanish where I live too, I think most people on this forum are trying to learn the language to some extent… I don’t think they are Spaniard bashing, there may be things people don’t like about Spain sometimes but for the majority I think most feel there are more positive things about Spain. That is why most want to stay… but it’s not always possible for reasons of work, family etc to do so.

Sorry this post is so long, especially for non-native speakers who are reading it – but it’s an interesting thread.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Nigel has as he usually does a good point. Yes, your views of Spain -or any country -will bre coloured by your financial circumstances, age, education, social background, health...and probably other factors I can't think of.
I've said before but will restate: I'm certainly not wealthy but not poor, I suppose I'm well educated, can -currently -afford to live well here, not looking for work although I do unpaid work here in Spain and occasionally in the UK, am physically healthy and the last time I counted them had all my marbles, get all my income from the UK and curse low interest rates, speak reasonable Spanish and have many friends and acquaintances here, plus family property nearby so we get frequent family visits.
Quite honestly, I consider myself to be very fortunate and because of that could settle in almost any country. 
But who knows what the future may bring?
I have never indulged and never will indulge in 'Spain bashing'. What's to bash? My OH and I have lived in and spent periods of time in several European countries and Canada where we had property and Spain is by far the easiest country we've lived in. People are warm, friendly and helpful, the climate is fabulous, food and shopping facilities are good (where we live at least) and we have had zero problems with the formalities needed to settle here (registering on the padron, getting NIE and residencia, transferring car ownership, banking facilities etc.)
What does p*** me off isn't the Spaniards, it's the attitude of some Brits here. Moaning and whingeing is often said to be our national pastime and judging by what I've read on other forums that seems to be true.
There are also some specimens here who through their attitudes and uncouth behaviour present a frightful picture of the British abroad. Spain seems to attract some of the dregs. 
The latest tale, of the woman who sat in a bar getting plastered while her eleven-year-old daughter was left alone on a beach paints a delightful picture of a slice of British society. Getting drunk, having sex in public, fighting, vomiting...OK, it's not everyone and everywhere, but it's undeniable that it's a way of behaviour sadly all too typical of Brits in Spain and elsewhere...and it's not just the underclass on tour either. The behaviour of public school yobs in Marbella recently was shameful. The Mayor of a Greek resort, puzzled by the behaviour of British viositors, asked why it was only the British who got so drunk, ran around naked etc. etc. Germans, French and Italians don't do it, he said....
So.....whilst I will happily Brit-bash those wandering chavs who imo deserve more than a good verbal bashing I will never indulge in criticism of this country whose citizens have accepted and welcomed an incredibly large number of immigrants from all countries and which has had to tolerate the kind of behaviour from some lowlife Brits that should never be a British export to any country.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Nigel has as he usually does a good point. Yes, your views of Spain -or any country -will bre coloured by your financial circumstances, age, education, social background, health...and probably other factors I can't think of.
> I've said before but will restate: I'm certainly not wealthy but not poor, I suppose I'm well educated, can -currently -afford to live well here, not looking for work although I do unpaid work here in Spain and occasionally in the UK, am physically healthy and the last time I counted them had all my marbles, get all my income from the UK and curse low interest rates, speak reasonable Spanish and have many friends and acquaintances here, plus family property nearby so we get frequent family visits.
> Quite honestly, I consider myself to be very fortunate and because of that could settle in almost any country.
> But who knows what the future may bring?
> ...


¡¡Olé Mary!!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> Nigel has as he usually does a good point. Yes, your views of Spain -or any country -will bre coloured by your financial circumstances, age, education, social background, health...and probably other factors I can't think of.
> I've said before but will restate: I'm certainly not wealthy but not poor, I suppose I'm well educated, can -currently -afford to live well here, not looking for work although I do unpaid work here in Spain and occasionally in the UK, am physically healthy and the last time I counted them had all my marbles, get all my income from the UK and curse low interest rates, speak reasonable Spanish and have many friends and acquaintances here, plus family property nearby so we get frequent family visits.
> Quite honestly, I consider myself to be very fortunate and because of that could settle in almost any country.
> But who knows what the future may bring?
> ...



Sadly, it seems that that the very important job of bringing up children and teaching them respect and responsibility seems to have been lost in the last generation! Whether its the dole mentality, lack of education or simply the country has been too lenient and removed the "consequences for your actions" mantra I dont know, but its a problem that needs addressing within the UK and fast. Cos not only is it embarrassing but it isnt conducive with prosperity or success!

But I guess this is totally off topic - sorry :focus:

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> Sadly, it seems that that the very important job of bringing up children and teaching them respect and responsibility seems to have been lost in the last generation! Whether its the dole mentality, lack of education or simply the country has been too lenient and removed the "consequences for your actions" mantra I dont know, but its a problem that needs addressing within the UK and fast. Cos not only is it embarrassing but it isnt conducive with prosperity or success!
> 
> But I guess this is totally off topic - sorry :focus:
> 
> Jo xxx


What's wrong with going off-topic now and then?
I think you're right - young people seem to lack recognition of the correlation between cause and effect. 
I found that when I was teaching and actually devised a series of lessons designed to teach this important fact of life, i.e. if you do _a_ then the likely consequences could be _b _or _c._
Sometimes this very obvious fact was received with the kind of awe-struck wonder Moses must have got when he brought the Ten Commandments to the assembled Israelites....


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