# Education (again)



## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

I thought this was a very interesting article in Sur this week, Enjoy - not! 

rafael durÁn, HEAD OF THE IMMIGRATION SEMINAR AT MALAGA UNIVERSITY
“It’s the British children who have the most difficulty integrating in class” 
“They are less interested and their need is not as great; in reality, they follow the examples set by their families”, says Rafael Durán
.



Rafael Durán is the head of the Interdisciplinary Seminar of Studies on Immigration at the University of Malaga. Rafael Durán, conscious of the need to improve the process of adaptation of foreign children in schools in Malaga, recently organised a conference called Coexistence in the School Environment, with the assistance of the City Hall and the regional government. The conference was attended by around fifty teachers from different parts of the province. Regarding integration, Rafael has no hesitation in stating that the children who experience the most problems are British, “because they are not as interested and their need is not so great; in reality, they follow the example of other members of their families”.

Why did you organise a conference about multi-culturality?
That’s easy. The phenomenon of migration is a fact. And children and teenagers have stereotypes or prejudices, attitudes which can generate conflict. One person may not understand another because no previous work has been done on integration, and this could be done in schools. A couple of weeks ago, the European Parliament approved a report which proposed using extra-curricular activities as a form of socialisation and integration. It is much easier for children to see themselves as equals in a football lesson. That’s why this conference was held, to discuss how to improve integration and multi-culturality. 

What lesson is to be learned about immigration?
There isn’t a lesson to be learned, but I am worried about the future. Immigration isn’t a problem, it’s a phenomenon. It became a problem in France, and Paris was set on fire. Cases such as Paris and El Ejido could happen again if we do things wrong. 

How can we do things well?
By neutralising stereotypes and prejudices and stopping arguments and conflict. And, of course, by not confusing tradition with culture. There has been a case in the news about a young girl who has married her cousin and they forced her to have sexual relations with him. That isn’t culture, that’s tradition, and is clearly in contravention of human rights.

Do you agree with the measures which have been taken in France, where children are allowed to wear religious symbols such as the veil to school?
You have to be very careful not to stigmatise the use of the veil, as this would impede the integration of women and girls into the society in which they are living. It is more productive to facilitate the use of the veil because this could result in the woman having the freedom to stop wearing it, because she has lived with people who are different. If you ban the veil, a girl will begin to see it as part of her identity and she will hang on to it. Then, she will lose the freedom to choose whether or not to wear it, and why. 
*
Is it true that the British have the most problems in integrating?
Yes, because they are not very interested and have less need to integrate. In reality, they follow the example of other members of their families. But that also applies to other European nationalities. If their parents don’t integrate and if they settle all their matters in their native tongue, the language of the host country becomes dispensable. *

And when these children start studying in Spanish schools?
Synergy can be created, which is something different. In the Costa del Sol we have a wealth of resources because being bilingual is common. In Mijas, the foreigners help the Spanish children to learn their language, and Spanish adults can do the same with the immigrants, as well as organising activities for the children of different nationalities.


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

What a bloody ***hole. Sorry, but how narrow minded and generalistic was that??? Oooh, it makes me angry.


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Ohhhhh! We love it when you're angry!


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

SteveHall said:


> Ohhhhh! We love it when you're angry!



And we love it when you go all mushy, Steve!!!

Tallulah.x


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Seriously, he may be over-generalising but it's pretty much my experience on the costas. The Dutch and Scandis all come expecting (and looking forward) to learn Spanish as they know that only their countrymen speak their languages. The Arabs, W.Africans and Eastern Europeans know that they must learn it to prosper but somehow the Brits and Irish expect everybody to speak their languages. It comes as a crashing surprise that despite what their friendly estate agent told them, the Spaniards who are not involved with tourism/property do not speak good English. 

I have taught many Brits and have a handful of Spanish friends who are school teachers trying to teach their mother tongue so I am not basing my opinions on tiny cross-sections. That said, I expect that the expats who live in your area are very different to those who chose Benidorm, Torrevieja or Torremolinos as their new home in "Spain".


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

My_Name_is_Tallulah said:


> And we love it when you go all mushy, Steve!!!
> 
> Tallulah.x


Speedily going on to the original topic of education  I´ve just got my sons school report and it was blinding. This is a lad who, in the UK was pretty average and thats being polite. He was slow, disinterested in school and never bothered with anything, a real "grunter" wanna be chav!

His school report is full of "excellents"!! If he keeps this up he will go far and is wellabove average academically!!!!!! He´s desperate to be a pilot when he grows up and his teachers think that he will acheive that with ease. I AM SO PROUD!!!!!! Just gtotta find the money for the damn school fees now 

Jo xxxxx


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

jojo said:


> Speedily going on to the original topic of education  I´ve just got my sons school report and it was blinding. This is a lad who, in the UK was pretty average and thats being polite. He was slow, disinterested in school and never bothered with anything, a real "grunter" wanna be chav!
> 
> His school report is full of "excellents"!! If he keeps this up he will go far and is wellabove average academically!!!!!! He´s desperate to be a pilot when he grows up and his teachers think that he will acheive that with ease. I AM SO PROUD!!!!!! Just gtotta find the money for the damn school fees now
> 
> Jo xxxxx



Hmmmm...nicely side-stepped wasn't it?!! Well done to your son! He's obviously settled and flourishing.

Tallulah.xx


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

SteveHall said:


> Seriously, he may be over-generalising but it's pretty much my experience on the costas. The Dutch and Scandis all come expecting (and looking forward) to learn Spanish as they know that only their countrymen speak their languages. The Arabs, W.Africans and Eastern Europeans know that they must learn it to prosper but somehow the Brits and Irish expect everybody to speak their languages. It comes as a crashing surprise that despite what their friendly estate agent told them, the Spaniards who are not involved with tourism/property do not speak good English.
> 
> I have taught many Brits and have a handful of Spanish friends who are school teachers trying to teach their mother tongue so I am not basing my opinions on tiny cross-sections. That said, I expect that the expats who live in your area are very different to those who chose Benidorm, Torrevieja or Torremolinos as their new home in "Spain".


Yes, I remember you saying now - who was that chap, a school inspector?? - who wondered what the hell he had done to be sent to a particular school. I wouldn't want to generalise on the Costas, not knowing anything about that particular area I don't feel able to comment, but as we've both commented before, very few expats here and perhaps that does really make a difference (plus I suppose my kids are half-Spanish anyway).


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Well done to your son!!! Must get his brains from his father LOL (OMG Did I say that? Am I that brave?) 

The exception proves the rule. 

For those who do not have Yorkshire as their mother tongue I need to explain the word "mushy" - mushy is an adjective used to describe the greatest peas that mother earth produces. To be eaten in copious amounts and liberally dolloped with mint sauce or by the puritans (like me) with even more copious amounts of tomato ketchup. It has NO other meanings in my vocabulary! 

This is getting worse, gay, mushy, property agent, estate agent Daily Mail reader. Nobody understands me ..... I feel a song coming on.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

SteveHall said:


> Well done to your son!!! Must get his brains from his father LOL (OMG Did I say that? Am I that brave?)
> 
> The exception proves the rule.
> 
> ...


Thats it!!! insults, singing...... I´m going to Mercadona, I know how to live it up!!!!!!!! sees ya´ll later

Jo xxxxx


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Here is that song. 

Eamon Andrews, (as he passes the famous red book across) "Steve Hall, This Is Your Life"

"I'm just a poor boy 
though my story's seldom told 

I have squandered my 
resistance for a pocketful 
of mumbles such are promises: 

All lies and jest still a 
man hears what he wants 
to hear 
and disregards the rest 
mh -- mh. 

When I left my home and family 
I was no more than a boy 
in the company of strangers 
in the quiet of a railway station 

running scared. 
Laying low 
seeking out the poorer 
quarters where the ragged 
people go 
looking for the places 
only they would know. 

Lie-la-lie (practising to be an estate agent!) 

Asking only workman's wages I 
come looking for a job 

but I get no offers 

just a come-on from the whores 
on Seventh Avenue. 
I do declare 
there were times when I was so lonesome 
I took some comfort there 
oh la la 
la la 
la la. 

Then I'm laying out my winter clothes 
and wishing I was gone 
going home 
where the New York City 
winters aren't bleeding me 

leading me going home 
mh -- mh. 

In the clearing stands a 
boxer and a fighter by 
his trade 

and he carries the 
reminders of ev'ry glove 
that laid him down 
or cut him till he cried 
out in his anger an his 
shame: 
I am leaving, I am leaving! 
but the fighter still remains 
mh -- mh.


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

SteveHall said:


> This is getting worse, gay, mushy, property agent, estate agent Daily Mail reader. Nobody understands me ..... I feel a song coming on.


You've forgotten to add "forum head prefect" to your list with your swanky new badge. Ooooh, get you!!!


Tallulah.x


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

My_Name_is_Tallulah said:


> You've forgotten to add "forum head prefect" to your list with your swanky new badge. Ooooh, get you!!!
> 
> 
> Tallulah.x


He´s right posh isnt here!!!!!!

Jo


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## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

SteveHall said:


> I thought this was a very interesting article in Sur this week, Enjoy - not!
> 
> rafael durÁn, HEAD OF THE IMMIGRATION SEMINAR AT MALAGA UNIVERSITY
> “It’s the British children who have the most difficulty integrating in class”
> ...


Hi, tried to reply to this post before but something went wrong - am sure I pressed the right button! 

I read this in the Sur too and have serious misgivings about it. I dont know if some of it is taken out of context, badly edited, translated or distorted, as can happen in the press. (The bit about France isnt correct as they have banned the veil.) But I think making sweeping generalisations like the British arent interested in integrating is hardly likely to aid peace and understanding!

While it is definitely true that on the Costa there is a large percentage of expats who come here without any desire to learn the language and integrate (which has in turn made it more difficult for those who do want to do so) it is by no means the whole picture, and is not representative of all British expats either here or inland, or elsewhere in Spain. Besides, I think it is a common mistake to believe that those particular Brits on the Costa represent the whole nation (or the whole Costa). Senor Duran says we can improve things by "neutralising stereotypes and prejudices" but then goes on to perpetuate the stereotypes!
I know a wide variety of Brits and other nationalities who try to integrate here up to varying degrees - from the basic knowing how to order a beer up to marrying Spanish nationals and bearing their children. I think even here on the Costa it is slowly changing with more people making more effort to integrate once they get here. I dont think it helps that in the UK languages are not taught in schools until the age of 11 or 12, and I dont think they are even compulsory now. My nephew was told he could learn French but didnt have the option of learning Spanish until he was 16! (Funnily enough, my dad went back to school, literally - with the 16 year olds - to learn Spanish at the age of 70-something!)

What Sr. Duran says about children not being interested is even more unconvincing. I dont know any child who doesnt want to integrate with their school mates, their peer group seem more important to them than their families. And the reason they have stereotypes and prejudices, is because they have learned about them from adults! Which is why adults need to be first in line to reflect upon their own prejudices - whether its parents, of any nationality, or teachers, or people heading seminars on Immigration!

It makes me wonder if he actually bothered to consult people on all sides of the equation, or if he has even researched into the difficulties people encounter when trying to integrate. On the one hand, I have a Swedish friend who is anxious as she is under pressure by her 3 year old son's teacher to speak more Spanish at home so he can keep up in class (he speaks English and a bit of Swedish at home, and Spanish when he plays with my son, or kids at school!) and on the other, I am constantly being told by my 4 year old son's father to speak more English to him at home as he doesnt speak much English! And now it seems he might be being bullied at school for being English! (which he isnt!)
School report on Sr. Duran - must try harder!
Caz.


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

Caz.I said:


> Hi, tried to reply to this post before but something went wrong - am sure I pressed the right button!
> 
> I read this in the Sur too and have serious misgivings about it. I dont know if some of it is taken out of context, badly edited, translated or distorted, as can happen in the press. (The bit about France isnt correct as they have banned the veil.) But I think making sweeping generalisations like the British arent interested in integrating is hardly likely to aid peace and understanding!
> 
> ...


Very well said, Caz. My sentiments exactly - this made me so angry when I first read his article - being a mother of three children who to this very day (and will always) bends over backwards with anything school related to ensure my children are integrated, prepared, studying and achieving everything that they want to/need to achieve. Personally I believe that any child under 10 for example, and especially those as young as two when they start in parbolitos, will automatically pick up the language whether you speak it at home or not and will soon (extremely soon) leave you well behind. 

The man is only stating the obvious that the whole world is aware of - Southall/Portobello Road/Golders Green/Birmingham/Leicestershire to name but a few areas in the UK which are all little whatever (Spain in the case of Portobello Road in London), the US has major communities (like Chinese and PuertaRican) where the kids if you couldn't see their faces are just another person from that country when they "street" speak. 

What this man is talking about and he doesn't even realise it, it appears, is cultural dilutions within a larger community. Personally, I think schools automatically do this by natural integration and the problems are with the elder first generations. Not sure therefore what the hell he's talking about. I would imagine that in today's current economic climate, a failing school system is so easy to blame on immigrant children when in better days, his area was rather enjoying an influx of foreign revenue. It also doesn't help that the government keeps all informative statistics (OFSTED type reports) to itself. I have verified with our school director that these do exist, but not for public consumption. I have also verified that promotion of teachers who are funcionarios and not on the open job market, depends on their length of service, courses attended, etc and not at all related to their success/failure in the quality of teaching they provide and thus pass rates of students.

One final observation - I would ask Sr. Duran, given the above I have just written, how far exactly would he be willing to go to meet his integration ideals? Or, has he not read or studied any form of history on this EXTREMELY dangerous subject? 

Hopefully he'll crawl back under his slimy rock and fade into obscurity.

Tallulah.x


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

oh!! I´ll just say this the once and then I´ll get me coat lol. But from my experience of the state system here... he´s..... er..um......... spot on!! 


Jo xxx


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

...and for the first time in living memory, Jojo and Steve agree on something! 

In a meeting but I'll comment soonest, Taliban.


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

jojo said:


> oh!! I´ll just say this the once and then go get me coat lol. But from my experience of the state system here... he´s..... er..um......... spot on!!
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Don't get your coat on yet, Jo - let's have a word in your shell-like

The "Spanglish" phenomenon is a result of Spanish/PuertoRican etc in the UK/US integrating. They speak to their parents in Spanish and I have known cases with "difficult years" teens, etc, replying to Spanish-speaking parents in English. To kids (especially teens), peer pressure dictates generally their integration process. Unless they're in some form of closed community, they can't fail to integrate and become fully bilingual and yes, even get to the point where they dream in their adopted language. 

That's the kids, then.

Regarding Sr. Duran, totally 100% agree but ONLY at first generation expat immigrant level and nothing to do with their young offspring and certainly not with those born in the country who one has to carefully guide early on to not let their roots disappear almost instantly.

Perhaps he needs to look at demolishing the British pub and outlaw any gatherings of more than 5 expats in any one session LOL!!! This might start addressing what he is referring to, BUT as I said in my earlier post, Adolf, sorry, Sr.Duran, should consider VERY carefully where he's going with this.

I'm all for integration and preserving cultural heritage. Having said that, the old adage, "When in Rome ....." does sometimes make a lot of sense, particularly if your grandparents and great-grandparents come from a place like Southall which has now lost all of its British roots in order to accommodate the non-enforced integration policy. This is a very difficult scenario to address and multi-cultural societies by their very nature will always be discussing this topic. 

I would hate to end up like the French with Populist MP Jean-Marie Le Pen who was gunning for enforcement of the French language by extreme measures such as fining anyone heard saying things like "le weekend" etc. Given Spain's take up of the English language/Americanisms due to popular culture, I think Sr.Duran is on to a loser.

Tallulah.xx


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## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

My_Name_is_Tallulah said:


> Don't get your coat on yet, Jo - let's have a word in your shell-like
> 
> The "Spanglish" phenomenon is a result of Spanish/PuertoRican etc in the UK/US integrating. They speak to their parents in Spanish and I have known cases with "difficult years" teens, etc, replying to Spanish-speaking parents in English. To kids (especially teens), peer pressure dictates generally their integration process. Unless they're in some form of closed community, they can't fail to integrate and become fully bilingual and yes, even get to the point where they dream in their adopted language.
> 
> ...


Yes Tallulah, agree on the kids.

And... if he outlaws gatherings over 5 or more expats, we will have to ignore any more posters on this thread, LOL... as for the British pub... well that's half of Fuengirola closed down... Think I can cope with that tragedy!

But my point about his sweeping statement on the Brits is that by not even quantifying it and saying, for example, a large majority or even most, is that he is clearly including us all on the forum, so Jo and Steve, if you think he is spot on, you clearly agree with him that you are not interested in integrating, which I had thought was far from the case. I am not just being pedantic, he is including you (unless you are not British), he doesnt seem to have any notion that there are in fact some percentage of Brits who are trying to integrate. And what value is there in dismissing an entire nation outright?

Even though I live in Fuengirola (tho dont want to live in this part of Spain forever), which I chose due to having relatives and partner here, I never had any intention of coming here and not trying to integrate, I did a couple of courses in Spanish before I came and for the first few months lived in a Spanish only speaking household, and was communicating and socialising in Spanish from day one. 
Although there are still plenty Brits with a British colonial mentality, especially here, colonialism was is not exclusively British, so we need to look at tendencies humans have to dominate each other as well as at concrete ideas of how to integrate instead. (OK. Sr Duran thinks a game of football is the answer - typical bloke! )
And what is it in human beings that stops them from doing that successfully, laziness or fear of difference, perhaps? He needs to think a bit more deeply.

Valuing the positive in your own culture as well as that of others, what is wrong with that? OK, its maybe difficult to think immediately what that would be (I, for one, do not include haggis, despite my roots.)  But there is a lot of value in cultural exchange. And on that note, this weekend Fuengirola is hosting the Internacional dia de los pueblos, with participants from a wide variety of countries, and for the first time - Scotland! At last we can qualify for something!  So you will have to forgive me if I venture in for a wee dram and mingle with my own! 
Caz.
x


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

"...so Jo and Steve, if you think he is spot on, you clearly agree with him that you are not interested in integrating, which I had thought was far from the case". 

**I'll let that slip as if you knew anything at all about me, you would realise that this is as far from the truth as XTreme's usual jibes about me being a gay estate agent who reads the Daily Mail. I have devoted much of the past 7 years to trying to help people integrate with the Newcomers Club, TIBA, Cofradía Oración del Huerto - Torrevieja , the Neighbourhood Watch, thousands of hours on forums, teaching Spanish to expats etc etc I may not always have succeeded but I HAVE tried. 

I also have a groups of Spanish friends who have the dubious pleasure of teaching expat kids. They will almost without exception agree that the British/Irish kids that are the least keen to progress and that the inability/unwillingness of their parents to speak Spanish and integrate is a major factor in this. Having taught Spanish to up to 800 expats per week at one stage I can agree with what Duran says. 

It IS a generalisation but it is something I have both a lot of experience and interest in - if the cap fits wear it. If you are all integrating successfully os doy mis enhorabuenas.


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

BTW, not sure where you live in Fuengirola or even if it is the same Fuengirola I know and love but I cannot remember the last time I was in an English bar in the town. The town is as much Spanish or English as you want it. I want mine Spanish, please! 

La Cazuelita, Bar El Remo and my personal favourite Casa Dani all beat any expat bar I have been in down here.


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

SteveHall said:


> "...so Jo and Steve, if you think he is spot on, you clearly agree with him that you are not interested in integrating, which I had thought was far from the case".
> 
> **I'll let that slip as if you knew anything at all about me, you would realise that this is as far from the truth as XTreme's usual jibes about me being a gay estate agent who reads the Daily Mail. I have devoted much of the past 7 years to trying to help people integrate with the Newcomers Club, TIBA, Cofradía Oración del Huerto - Torrevieja , the Neighbourhood Watch, thousands of hours on forums, teaching Spanish to expats etc etc I may not always have succeeded but I HAVE tried.
> 
> ...


Woah Steve, so you are in fact agreeing to an extent with what Caz is saying - ie you are English and you are not only integrating but assisting others with integration. This I believe was Caz's point, that not all are alike. 

Secondly whilst you have that experience, I have the reverse experience with the Spanish in the UK - having been there with my Spanish husband before coming to live here. What Sr.Duran is stating about the British in Spain, would fit quite nicely in the UK for the Spanish immigrants (I imagine in lots of other places too for lots of other peoples). So, the rather complex issue is not disagreeing with Sr. Duran's analysis in its entirety, simply a) I agree with first generation expats and not the kids as they will integrate linguistically like it or not, and b) this is not an English in Spain phenomenon, but a natural state of being in any country where there are large numbers of immigrants from the same place concentrated in a particular area. 

It is, if you like, a human condition and not a Spanish Expatshire phenomenon.

That is my humble opinion and maybe now I should get my coat.

Tallulah.x


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

The main point that I have being trying to make is that IN GENERAL the Brits/Irish are less successful than the other new arrivals. 

Is it because they all feel that they came because "Everybody speaks English", is it because the Brits are appalling at learning second/thrid languages, is it an Imperialist view, is it a mixture......?


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

Apply that possibly to first generation Brit/Irish and apply it to a particular zone and maybe, just maybe, I might agree.


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Wow, I agree with Jojo and Taliban on the same day. Life is sweet!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

SteveHall said:


> Wow, I agree with Jojo and Taliban on the same day. Life is sweet!


Enjoy Steve, its a one off LOL

Jo xxxxxx


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## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

My_Name_is_Tallulah said:


> Woah Steve, so you are in fact agreeing to an extent with what Caz is saying - ie you are English and you are not only integrating but assisting others with integration. This I believe was Caz's point, that not all are alike.
> 
> Secondly whilst you have that experience, I have the reverse experience with the Spanish in the UK - having been there with my Spanish husband before coming to live here. What Sr.Duran is stating about the British in Spain, would fit quite nicely in the UK for the Spanish immigrants (I imagine in lots of other places too for lots of other peoples). So, the rather complex issue is not disagreeing with Sr. Duran's analysis in its entirety, simply a) I agree with first generation expats and not the kids as they will integrate linguistically like it or not, and b) this is not an English in Spain phenomenon, but a natural state of being in any country where there are large numbers of immigrants from the same place concentrated in a particular area.
> 
> ...


Yes that was my point. I wasnt accusing Steve and Jo of not integrating, it was the complete opposite. I was saying that if they agreed with Sr Duran's generalisation they were including themselves, simply because he is. And I imagined they wouldnt like to be assessed by Sr Duran like that. That is why I dont like generalisations.
I am fully aware that there are a large number of expats who live in a British bubble, and it still amazes me how many do. I remember a few years ago when I was looking for an apartment, traipsing round most of the estate agents in Fuengirola (though not Steve's I think LOL) being amazed at how amazed the Spanish ones were that I was speaking Spanish (though maybe because it was spoken so badly.). I am just saying that I, like quite a few others on this forum, am not one of these type of expats and object to myself and others being labelled in this way. I dont think any situation is static either, and think that little by little things are changing. Yes there are still expats coming out without any desire to speak Spanish. I also know there are Brits who came here 30 odd years ago as kids and now with their children are totally immersed in Spanish life. In fact I discovered one of my adult students (in a beginners English class) had had a grandmother who came from the same part of the Highlands as I lived in! 

Also, I have met a lot of South Americans, Scandinavians, Moroccans and even Spanish people from other parts of Spain, who find it difficult to integrate in this part of Andalucia. So its not exclusively a British problem nor just a language problem. Which is why I am suggesting Sr Duran takes a more in depth approach to problems of integration and encourages self-reflection.

Steve, I dont know if all the expat kids you and your friends taught were in Spanish state schools or international ones but in my son's school, there aren't that many British or foreign kids and there is no chance of opting out, even if they wanted too!

I was also being sarcastic when I said closing all the English bars in Fuengirola was a tragedy and i do try to avoid them too. I live in Los Boliches, so you may be a neighbour of mine - (cue the theme tune...
_"Neighbours, everybody needs good neighbours...that's why good neighbours become good friends," _- though not if you are the bloke next door who keeps playing on his organ late at night!


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

I "think" we are probably agreeing somewhere! 

My experience of the education sector has always been of the state sector and I can certainly tell you that Virgínia was not unhappy with the 50%+ truancy among the expat kids in the summer term ......nor did she do anything about it! When you have 12 different nationalities in a class of 28 and less than half the class have the reading age that they should have or speak Spanish well enough to understand a geography or science lesson what chance has she got? Her English made most expats Spanish look good!! 

If they closed all the Brit bars in Fuengirola I'd not lose a wink of sleep, I bet I haven't spent 20 euros between them in the last six months! 

Yes. I think it is changing. My experiene is that it is getting worse. When I first came here in 1992 there was more pressure to speak Spanish with no Sky TV, very few expat radio stations/TV stations and little expat press. The expat business were bars or estate agencies and there was none of the expat infrastructure that there is now,


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## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

SteveHall said:


> BTW, not sure where you live in Fuengirola or even if it is the same Fuengirola I know and love but I cannot remember the last time I was in an English bar in the town. The town is as much Spanish or English as you want it. I want mine Spanish, please!
> 
> La Cazuelita, Bar El Remo and my personal favourite Casa Dani all beat any expat bar I have been in down here.


And whereabouts are they, exactly?


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## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

SteveHall said:


> I "think" we are probably agreeing somewhere!
> 
> My experience of the education sector has always been of the state sector and I can certainly tell you that Virgínia was not unhappy with the 50%+ truancy among the expat kids in the summer term ......nor did she do anything about it! When you have 12 different nationalities in a class of 28 and less than half the class have the reading age that they should have or speak Spanish well enough to understand a geography or science lesson what chance has she got? Her English made most expats Spanish look good!!
> 
> ...


Yes, we do agree on some things. Can you say which school that was? It sounds like a nightmare scenario. But it is somewhat reassuring then that my son's school is not so international. Though I think there maybe a bullying problem there which is very worrying.

I am sure it is easier to live in a British bubble than before and that definitely does make people lazier but most of the British people I know in my immediate surroundings, and friends, and relatives are all interested in integrating more, even though they do so to lesser or greater degrees. And I definitely feel more cut off from those that still want to socialise in mainly expat bars and watch only British TV. Though I wouldnt boycott them. (Though dont have Sky) As soon as I came here I felt that there was a kind of apartheid in existence, with the Spanish and British communities being largely separate with only limited movement between them. Which is why I feel so strongly about encouraging integration.


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Caz.I said:


> And whereabouts are they, exactly?


El Remo - nearly opposite correos 100 yards up from Spainsburys 

La Cazuelita - in the maze of pedestrian streets towards the sea from the church square in Los Balcones. Diagonally opposite the Swedish "Zen" bar. 

Casa Dani - Calle Marbella on the pedestrian street going south from the main square in Fuengirola (Next to Hostal Marbella)


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Yes, we do agree on some things. 

**Great - Jojo has gone off in a sulk as she was afraid that we would agree on two things in one day and she would never want that!! 

Can you say which school that was? It sounds like a nightmare scenario. But it is somewhat reassuring then that my son's school is not so international. Though I think there maybe a bullying problem there which is very worrying.

**Alicante .....and there was a serious bullying problem there too. I had to put a Danish kid against a wall one day to remind him that as a 14 year old he should not bully 10/11 year olds and if he laid a finger on them ever again he'd better have a good dentist. That seemed to have the result that MariCarmen could not get. NOT recommended but...... His (drunk) father and (drunker) mother even thanked me and said that they could not keep control. MMmmm, I'd noticed. 

I am sure it is easier to live in a British bubble than before and that definitely does make people lazier but most of the British people I know in my immediate surroundings, and friends, and relatives are all interested in integrating more, even though they do so to lesser or greater degrees. 

** That is exactly my point and likewise my friends do not play pool/karaoke/darts in Brit bars 24/7. If they did they would not be true friends. Equally, they would not be interested in discussing with me Ana y las Siete, whether Chaves can do more good for Andalucia in Seville or Madrid and the pronounciation of the "double l" in Argentinian Spanish. The finer points of the Semana Santa would be lost amidst "jokes" about the KKK. Only a matter or taste. Nobody is write or wrong. 

And I definitely feel more cut off from those that still want to socialise in mainly expat bars and watch only British TV. Though I wouldnt boycott them. (Though dont have Sky) As soon as I came here I felt that there was a kind of apartheid in existence, with the Spanish and British communities being largely separate with only limited movement between them. Which is why I feel so strongly about encouraging integration.


**Sounds like we are chips off the same block. I have no doubt XTreme will be goading Jojo to offer to buy me a coffee in the next few weeks here in Fuengirola. It would be good to get together with you too. For the avoidance of any doubt, I am offering to pay! (Even though I will rush to the door for an important call when the bill comes ...... according to XTreme!) 

Thanks for your thoughts.


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## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

SteveHall said:


> Yes, we do agree on some things.
> 
> **Great - Jojo has gone off in a sulk as she was afraid that we would agree on two things in one day and she would never want that!!
> 
> ...


Well, she'll definitely be in a huff now.

Have heard some horrible stories too, about out of control parents. Alcohol and drugs seems to be a major addiction for a much older generation as well as the younger generation here.

The finer points of Semana Santa are totally lost on me too, and my son, though in the true spirit of integration he has shouted "Guapa, virgen," in an effort to join in but was very scared by the appearance of the Nazarenes and also shouted "Que asusta" during this very solemn and silent procession.

BTW, thanks for the offer. Mine's a "sombra" or a "nube" depending on the cafe in question.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I´m passionate about my childrens education. I carefully chose an international school when we first arrived here and its brilliant. My daughter then went thro a phase of wanting to try a state school, so after careful thought and thinking it would be good for her and her Spanish I sent her to the local state school. She hated it, but we persevered, things got worse and worse. Tears every morning, every night, battles in the car, feigning illnesses, I saw the head a few times and he said she had shut down and just refused to listen, work, do homework... So we then got a private teacher at home to give us spanish lessons twice a week, again Ruby refused to participate and would cry before and after each lesson. I then tried bribery, horse riding lessons, corruption, food, money... nope that didnt help. After this easter, I finally sent her back to the international school and the difference in her is remarkable, she´s back to being her happy, noisy and carefree little self. Her education hasnt suffered too much from being away for 9 months, she enjoys doing her homework and is enjoying learning again. The whole household is a better place!

The state school she attended had other expats children there, all with varying degrees of language skills. Sadly, it seemed to me that most of the brit kids there were from families who seemed to struggle to get up in the morning after the "night before", or who couldnt afford petrol for the car cos they didnt have jobs and spent too much in the bar the day before, so the kids attendance was appalling and no one really seemed to care, it was very much a place to get rid of the kids for the day, rather than a place of learning. They all seemed to fight amongst themselves, bullying amongst the british kids was rife and the spanish kids didnt want anything to do with them. With all that going on, how on earth can any of the children spanish or british be learning anything.

I used to reccomend state schools on here, but not anymore. I know you cant generalise and everywhere is different, but this is my experience. Will my children intergrate?? Probably not, but does it matter?? Spains job situation and future doesnt look good and quite frankly, I like to think that my children will grow to be confident enough to see the world as their workplace and home and be able to intergrate wherever they go.

The strange thing is that after all that, my son, who stayed in the international school understands, speaks, read, writes infinately better Spanish than my daughter!

Jo


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## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

Have somehow lost another post, along the way today. Typed it up and its disappeared?

Wow! Your poor daughter and you! Was it secondary or primary? How old is she? Not that it would have made a difference in those circumstances. But hink for younger kids its easier. But each child is individual so depends whats right for them.
Me and most of my friends children were born here and are now 4 or 5, they are in state schools where there are not that many expats or foreigners and they seem to be getting on okay. Apart from the bullying I found out about last week.
Older ones have fared less well. The ones I know who came over at 12 or 13 plus, had similar experiences to your daughter. One went to international school, then state and then international again. Fortunately, she is now working in a Spanish company, has Spanish friends and is so fluent, they asked her at the interview if she could actually speak English!
Another, a boy, went to a state school, stayed off school for a year as was constantly beaten up by Spanish kids, there were few foreigners there, and then went back to UK. He came back to Spain again, got a job, lost it and is back in UK again but still wants to return here. So who knows?
Just hope mine grows up happy and well adjusted whereever he is.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Caz.I said:


> Have somehow lost another post, along the way today. Typed it up and its disappeared?
> 
> Wow! Your poor daughter and you! Was it secondary or primary? How old is she? Not that it would have made a difference in those circumstances. But hink for younger kids its easier. But each child is individual so depends whats right for them.
> Me and most of my friends children were born here and are now 4 or 5, they are in state schools where there are not that many expats or foreigners and they seem to be getting on okay. Apart from the bullying I found out about last week.
> ...


Yep, you cant ask for more than that, happy and well adjusted! My daughter was/is at the wrong age, she was 11 when we came here and my son was 13, hence we put them into the international school. The state school she went to was/is primary and she was put back a year due to the language probs.

I guess anyone thinking of moving to spain with children over the age of say, 8, need to think very carefully. So many people seem to think that their kids will have a better life in Spain, well maybe they will, but school plays such a big part of a childs life, you really have to do your utmost to make sure its right for them, which isnt easy with the language barriers etc

Jo xx


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