# First FBAR filing and late filing



## Nightsoad

Good day all,

I started filing my tax report last year and I discovered recently that I must file the FBAR for 2011 and I should have done it last year as well.

Is there any real risk of penalty if I file lately for 2010 or should I not take the risk to report it ?

What are the chances that the IRS will know about it ? Has anyone ever been contacted by them ? Do they really control and apply penalties or is it just a threat ?

For how many years in the past would the IRS control an individual reporting ?

Many thanks in advance for your replies.


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## Bevdeforges

It kind of depends on how far over that $10,000 filing threshold you are - and whether or not the accounts you're declaring make it look like you have neglected to declare income from the accounts in prior years.

I have yet to hear of anyone getting hit with penalties for not filing back FBARs, but the law on these declarations has changed (and gotten stricter) recently, and what they've done in the past may or may not be a reasonable guide for how they'll do things from here on out.
Cheers,
Bev


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## barribr

Technically, there is penalty for not filing the form. I haven't typically seen it enforced, but the IRS is getting much stricter on this in the past few years.

My advice is to file it and just say it was an oversight to avoid compounding the problem.

**********


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## asingh

*Fbar 1st timer*

I am in a similar situation , i did not file Fbar last year (as i didn't know about it ) this year i will be filing it , but not sure if i should declare for last year as well , or just file for this year . Also what all should i declare i have a couple of life insurance policies which i bought years back worth about $4000 , and a savings and demat account which i did not operate for the last two years but have a total deposit of over $ 10,000


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## Bevdeforges

This is obviously not an official position on the matter, but as long as you declare all your foreign holdings on the current year FBAR (the one you file separately), I'd concentrate on that, and then see what the IRS does about questioning you about back filings.

There is a part of the FBAR/FATCA legislation that deals with getting foreign banks and financial institutions to open up their records to the IRS for review and audit - and it remains to be seen how successful they are going to be in that endeavor. The key thing is to establish your willingness to disclose fully (with the current year filing) and then see what happens. (IMO - if you've got zillions invested in offshore accounts designed to hide money from the IRS, you need to consider your situation carefully, cause those are the accounts they are looking to go after...)
Cheers,
Bev


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## Nightsoad

In my case I honestly don't quite see the interest of filing my late FBAR since I would declare the exact same accounts than this year. 
I got far away from the $10,000 threshold because I did a transfer from my checking account to my saving account. Consequence: the aggregation exceeds $10,000 whereas it is the exact same money but on two different bank accounts... 
I am really afraid that there might be penalties just because I did not file my FBAR in 2010. 
What is your opinion about this ? 
Thanks and cheers


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## graubart

If you have $5000 in a checking account then move the $5000 to a savings account, the aggregate value of your accounts is still $5000.


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## med96ben

Never thought about that! Means I totally over reported on my FBAR!


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## graubart

The aggregate value is only used to determine whether or not you have to report.

Once you determine that you have to report then you have to report the highest value of each account during the year. If you have moved money between accounts then you will be reporting a higher amount than you actually have.


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## med96ben

Question then is, for meeting the 8938 FATCA thesrhold. If I had 10000 which I transferred through 21 accounts, does this put ome over the 200000 threshold?


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## Nightsoad

graubart said:


> The aggregate value is only used to determine whether or not you have to report.
> 
> Once you determine that you have to report then you have to report the highest value of each account during the year. If you have moved money between accounts then you will be reporting a higher amount than you actually have.


I think I misunderstood the meaning of "aggregate". 

I thougth that in FBAR instructions "aggregate" meant "add" the maximum value that each bank account (checking and savings among others) you owe reached during the fiscal year. 

Here I quote the instructions from form TD F 90-22.1 : 

"Item 15. Determining Maximum Account Value.
Step 1. *Determine the maximum value of each account* (in the currency
of that account)* during the calendar year being reported*. The maximum
value of an account is a reasonable approximation of the greatest value
of currency or nonmonetary assets in the account during the calendar
year. Periodic account statements may be relied on to determine the
maximum value of the account, provided that the statements fairly
reflect the maximum account value during the calendar year. For Item
15, if the filer had a financial interest in more than one account, each
account must be valued separately.
Step 2. In the case of non-United States currency, convert the
maximum account value for each account into United States dollars.
Convert foreign currency by using the Treasury's Financial Management
Service rate from the last
day of the calendar year. If no Treasury Financial Management Service
rate is available, use another verifiable exchange rate and provide the
source of that rate. In valuing currency of a country that uses multiple
exchange rates, use the rate that would apply if the currency in the
account were converted into United States dollars on the last day of the
calendar year.
*If the aggregate of the maximum account values exceeds $10,000, an
FBAR must be filed*. An FBAR is not required to be filed if the person did
not have $10,000 of aggregate value in foreign financial accounts at any
time during the calendar year."

Reading this, I understand that if I have $5,000 on my checking account and $0 on my saving account. In december, I transfer the 5,000$ from my checking to my saving account, then the maximum value each account reached in the year is $5,000 each. And as I understood the aggregation would be $10,000 and I msut file the FBAR. 

Am I wrong ? If yes, how do I determine whether I must file or not ? 

Many thanks and cheers.


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## graubart

You may be right. I just thought it would be strange for Treasury to set a $10,000 threshold and then expect someone with only $5,000 to report it. Perhaps someone else can better answer the question.


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## Nightsoad

graubart said:


> You may be right. I just thought it would be strange for Treasury to set a $10,000 threshold and then expect someone with only $5,000 to report it. Perhaps someone else can better answer the question.


Thanks graubart. 

Does anyone know anything else about this ? 

I am still hesitating about filing my late FBAR. Has anyone here already sent one or more late FBARs ? Did you get any penalty ? What happened ? Did you join a note explaining why you had not files (i.e I imagine in most cases, you were basically not aware of it ) ? Were you contacted by the IRS ? 

Thanks again for your feedbacks. 

Cheers.


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## jimmyjam

*FBAR late filing, quiet disclosure*

You may want to have a look at this recent article by a specialist, that covers the issue of "quiet disclosure" (in other words, just amending and back-filing your reporting and hoping to pass under the radar, without entering into the OVDP program which now confiscates +-28% (?) of your entire foreign assets including your house, artwork, jewelry, etc... and regardless of taxs and penalties, requires you to pay tens of thousands of dollars in lawyer fees to defend yourself...)

Apparently the IRS want people to come in through the OVDP and are claiming they will subject quiet disclosures to high scrutiny and be intolerant of anyone who tries to file quietly.

This is truly a tragedy for so many people; I don't know what the solution is except perhaps to make sure you have a 2nd nationality and get used to the idea you will never set foot in the US again. At least until some major overhaul of the tax system is done. 

How many families, grandparents and grandchildren will be separated and unable to visit each other due to these tyrannical policies.

"In its published Questions and Answers of May 6, 2009, the IRS clearly stated that quiet disclosures do not satisfy the reporting requirements.57 More recently, on June 1, 2011, IRS representatives revealed that the Service is opening examinations against taxpayers who have submitted quiet disclosures. The government has developed a process by which to “filter” these submissions to facilitate proper processing either civilly or criminally.58 The IRS cautioned that civil penalties and/or criminal prosecutions may apply with respect to quiet disclosures. In fact, Q&A 10 of the 2009 disclosure information and Q&A 15 of the 2011 disclosure program both encouraged taxpayers who made quiet disclosures to come forward and take advantage of the penalty framework of the respective programs. "


"he IRS’s announcement of the new indefinite voluntary disclosure program, a move that places continued public pressure on United States citizens with foreign accounts to come into compliance through a specific, clearly marked door. "



FBAR: Handle With Care


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## Nightsoad

jimmyjam said:


> You may want to have a look at this recent article by a specialist, that covers the issue of "quiet disclosure" (in other words, just amending and back-filing your reporting and hoping to pass under the radar, without entering into the OVDP program which now confiscates +-28% (?) of your entire foreign assets including your house, artwork, jewelry, etc... and regardless of taxs and penalties, requires you to pay tens of thousands of dollars in lawyer fees to defend yourself...)
> 
> Apparently the IRS want people to come in through the OVDP and are claiming they will subject quiet disclosures to high scrutiny and be intolerant of anyone who tries to file quietly.
> 
> This is truly a tragedy for so many people; I don't know what the solution is except perhaps to make sure you have a 2nd nationality and get used to the idea you will never set foot in the US again. At least until some major overhaul of the tax system is done.
> 
> How many families, grandparents and grandchildren will be separated and unable to visit each other due to these tyrannical policies.
> 
> "In its published Questions and Answers of May 6, 2009, the IRS clearly stated that quiet disclosures do not satisfy the reporting requirements.57 More recently, on June 1, 2011, IRS representatives revealed that the Service is opening examinations against taxpayers who have submitted quiet disclosures. The government has developed a process by which to “filter” these submissions to facilitate proper processing either civilly or criminally.58 The IRS cautioned that civil penalties and/or criminal prosecutions may apply with respect to quiet disclosures. In fact, Q&A 10 of the 2009 disclosure information and Q&A 15 of the 2011 disclosure program both encouraged taxpayers who made quiet disclosures to come forward and take advantage of the penalty framework of the respective programs. "
> 
> 
> "he IRS’s announcement of the new indefinite voluntary disclosure program, a move that places continued public pressure on United States citizens with foreign accounts to come into compliance through a specific, clearly marked door. "
> 
> 
> 
> FBAR: Handle With Care



Thanks for this explanation. 

I would like to check one thing. If I send my late FBAR with my current FBAR, would that be "quiet disclosure" ? If not, what would it be ?

Thank you.


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## Nightsoad

Nightsoad said:


> Thanks for this explanation.
> 
> I would like to check one thing. If I send my late FBAR with my current FBAR, would that be "quiet disclosure" ? If not, what would it be ?
> 
> Thank you.


I have one more question. When you file the FBAR, do you automatically need to file form 1040 schedule B with your tax return ? 

Thanks and cheers.


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## Mona Lisa76

jimmyjam said:


> You may want to have a look at this recent article by a specialist, that covers the issue of "quiet disclosure" (in other words, just amending and back-filing your reporting and hoping to pass under the radar, without entering into the OVDP program which now confiscates +-28% (?) of your entire foreign assets including your house, artwork, jewelry, etc... and regardless of taxs and penalties, requires you to pay tens of thousands of dollars in lawyer fees to defend yourself...)
> 
> Apparently the IRS want people to come in through the OVDP and are claiming they will subject quiet disclosures to high scrutiny and be intolerant of anyone who tries to file quietly.
> 
> This is truly a tragedy for so many people; I don't know what the solution is except perhaps to make sure you have a 2nd nationality and get used to the idea you will never set foot in the US again. At least until some major overhaul of the tax system is done.
> 
> How many families, grandparents and grandchildren will be separated and unable to visit each other due to these tyrannical policies.
> 
> "In its published Questions and Answers of May 6, 2009, the IRS clearly stated that quiet disclosures do not satisfy the reporting requirements.57 More recently, on June 1, 2011, IRS representatives revealed that the Service is opening examinations against taxpayers who have submitted quiet disclosures. The government has developed a process by which to “filter” these submissions to facilitate proper processing either civilly or criminally.58 The IRS cautioned that civil penalties and/or criminal prosecutions may apply with respect to quiet disclosures. In fact, Q&A 10 of the 2009 disclosure information and Q&A 15 of the 2011 disclosure program both encouraged taxpayers who made quiet disclosures to come forward and take advantage of the penalty framework of the respective programs. "
> 
> 
> "he IRS’s announcement of the new indefinite voluntary disclosure program, a move that places continued public pressure on United States citizens with foreign accounts to come into compliance through a specific, clearly marked door. "
> 
> 
> 
> FBAR: Handle With Care


This is what I did last summer. It's been almost a year and so far so good but realise they have another five years to assess penalties...so it's still early days.


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## Nightsoad

Mona Lisa76 said:


> This is what I did last summer. It's been almost a year and so far so good but realise they have another five years to assess penalties...so it's still early days.


Does this mean you have not back filed and you are waiting for another OVDI to do so ? Or have you willingly back filed ? 

Do you know about form 1040 schedule B ? 

Thanks and cheers.


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## graubart

I discovered my tax and reporting requirements last fall and back filed six years of tax plus FBAR in December. I did it manually and screwed it up and so filed 6 1040x in March to correct it. I recently received 6 letters from the IRS, one for each year, that said:

"We have reviewed your information and determined no action was necessary on your account."

I included a cover letter with the FBARs with points from this IRS web page that applied to me:

Information for U.S. Citizens or Dual Citizens Residing Outside the U.S.

Lawyers and accountants are not necessary for most people who haven't been hiding anything, just making an honest mistake.


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## Nightsoad

graubart said:


> I discovered my tax and reporting requirements last fall and back filed six years of tax plus FBAR in December. I did it manually and screwed it up and so filed 6 1040x in March to correct it. I recently received 6 letters from the IRS, one for each year, that said:
> 
> "We have reviewed your information and determined no action was necessary on your account."
> 
> I included a cover letter with the FBARs with points from this IRS web page that applied to me:
> 
> Information for U.S. Citizens or Dual Citizens Residing Outside the U.S.
> 
> Lawyers and accountants are not necessary for most people who haven't been hiding anything, just making an honest mistake.


Thank you Graubart. This is comforting to read. 

Did you attach form 1040 schedule B with your late tax returns ? I got less than the $1.500 of interests with my saving accounts but I am wondering if the simple fact that I need to file the FBAR makes me have to file form 1040 schedule B. 

Thank you.


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## RødGrød

Nightsoad said:


> Thanks for this explanation.
> 
> I would like to check one thing. If I send my late FBAR with my current FBAR, would that be "quiet disclosure" ? If not, what would it be ?
> 
> Thank you.


You should be fine. Send in a letter of explanation. I believe (from what I've read)that the "quiet disclosures" the IRS frowns upon are the ones from sneaky people who have substantial bank and investment interest that they should have been reporting and who are now trying to creep in under the radar.


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## graubart

My understanding is that you have to file Schedule B simply to fill in Part III if you have a "foreign" bank account. You may or may not have to file FBAR depending on the amount in your accounts.


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## Nightsoad

graubart said:


> My understanding is that you have to file Schedule B simply to fill in Part III if you have a "foreign" bank account. You may or may not have to file FBAR depending on the amount in your accounts.


Then I should file a late 1040 schedule B for 2010 and send it with my 2011 tax return. 

Is there a particular version of the form or shall I send 1040 schedule B (version 2010) with a note explaining the situation as well ?

Moreover, I think I might need to make a correction on my 1040 form for 2010. How can I do this ?


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## Bevdeforges

Nightsoad said:


> Then I should file a late 1040 schedule B for 2010 and send it with my 2011 tax return.
> 
> Is there a particular version of the form or shall I send 1040 schedule B (version 2010) with a note explaining the situation as well ?
> 
> Moreover, I think I might need to make a correction on my 1040 form for 2010. How can I do this ?


Personally, I wouldn't worry about backfiling the Schedule B if the only reason for filing it is to check the box saying you have foreign accounts. I helped a friend file this year who had to file an FBAR, but did not have to file a 1040 at all (because of inadequate income). It shouldn't cause a problem in her case, and I doubt it will in yours, either.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Mona Lisa76

Nightsoad said:


> Does this mean you have not back filed and you are waiting for another OVDI to do so ? Or have you willingly back filed ?
> 
> Do you know about form 1040 schedule B ?
> 
> Thanks and cheers.


I had to send in several years' amended returns because I hadn't previously declared my foreign investment and savings intest income, as had believed it was enough to declare it on my local tax return. Anyway, paid back several thousand dollars in taxes as a result but was fully willing to pay this as it had been an unintentional omission.

And because none of this had been intentional, my accountant recommended a quiet disclosure becsuse the OVDI penalties are very harsh for benign failures in both our opinions. She also filed a readonabke cause letter with the amended returns and late FBARs which I only learned I needed to file lastyear. Had been a DIY filer and investor which was probsbly inappropriate in my case...but we live and learn! I'm just grateful that I wasn't subjected to life altering penalties for what had been an inadvertant mistake.

I was only 23 when I moved to the UK and so have spent the last 24 years here and thus hadn't fully understood all the filing and reporting requirements or the exposure to double taxation which I suffered as a result of poor tax planning.


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## Nightsoad

Bevdeforges said:


> Personally, I wouldn't worry about backfiling the Schedule B if the only reason for filing it is to check the box saying you have foreign accounts. I helped a friend file this year who had to file an FBAR, but did not have to file a 1040 at all (because of inadequate income). It shouldn't cause a problem in her case, and I doubt it will in yours, either.
> Cheers,
> Bev


Thanks Bev. 

I can see you live in France just like me and I think you can better help me figure everything out. 

Actually, I am considering correcting my 2010 1040 form because I earned some interests from my French saving accounts (very few indeed). I basically thought interests earned abroad were not to be declared on form 1040... 

I earned something like $4 on a classic French saving account on which interests are taxables. I think I should have declared it on line 8a (because taxable in France)

I earned something like $26 on both "Livret A" & "Livret Jeune" accounts which I think I should have declared on line 8b (because not taxable in France)

Am I right ? 

I am aware these are not consequent amounts but if I want to make everything right, can I correct my previous 1040 form ? If yes, how ? 

Thanks again for your help. 

Cheers.


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## Bevdeforges

Honestly, I wouldn't bother back filing for such trivial amounts. If you insist, you need to file a 1040X for whatever years you want to correct. (But be advised that I think even in the instructions for the 1040X form they say not to bother filing unless the result makes a difference in your US taxable income and thus in the tax you owe.)

The taxability of your bank interest in France doesn't make any difference as far as your IRS forms are concerned. You report all interest you received on line 8a. 

What you really should do is just make sure and include the interest from both accounts next time you file (i.e. for 2012) and let it go at that. With the IRS you don't get any extra credit for being super accurate. As long as you owe no tax, they basically just record that you took the trouble to file and probably don't really check much more than that.
Cheers,
Bev


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## jimmyjam

*FBAR late filing*



Nightsoad said:


> Thanks for this explanation.
> 
> I would like to check one thing. If I send my late FBAR with my current FBAR, would that be "quiet disclosure" ? If not, what would it be ?
> 
> Thank you.


Any late amendment or filing, that does not go through the dreaded OVDP program, is a "quiet" disclosure.

The IRS mentions filtering the quiet disclosures; I suppose they will check for several things, such as existence of any US source income; and especially US residence address; perhaps country of residence (europe vs tax haven countries) etc...

I have read in lawyers websites that they HAVE attacked people who performed quiet disclosures but all the cases I have read about were US residents with high income from US sources who also had a foreign bank account they had "forgotten" to include... 

I guess what troubles me in this article is the fact that US tax lawyers will now be hesitant to recommend quiet disclosures even to the most innocent people, for fear of being accused of encouraging tax avoidance .

In addition, like someone says further on, they have 6 years to come back to you, so you are sitting in pergutory for 6 years just waiting to see if you get a knock on the door or a letter in the mailbox. And who knows they may increase that 6 year delay, as they have increased other statutes of limitations...


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## Nightsoad

jimmyjam said:


> Any late amendment or filing, that does not go through the dreaded OVDP program, is a "quiet" disclosure.
> 
> The IRS mentions filtering the quiet disclosures; I suppose they will check for several things, such as existence of any US source income; and especially US residence address; perhaps country of residence (europe vs tax haven countries) etc...
> 
> I have read in lawyers websites that they HAVE attacked people who performed quiet disclosures but all the cases I have read about were US residents with high income from US sources who also had a foreign bank account they had "forgotten" to include...
> 
> I guess what troubles me in this article is the fact that US tax lawyers will now be hesitant to recommend quiet disclosures even to the most innocent people, for fear of being accused of encouraging tax avoidance .
> 
> In addition, like someone says further on, they have 6 years to come back to you, so you are sitting in pergutory for 6 years just waiting to see if you get a knock on the door or a letter in the mailbox. And who knows they may increase that 6 year delay, as they have increased other statutes of limitations...


Thanks JimmyJam. 

Isn't OVDI programm over now ? In that case, there is not much choice except do a quiet disclosure or wait for another OVDI programm, or just wait and see what will happen 

The fact is I quite have never lived in the USA. My parents and I left when I was aged 3 so I never had my own address there and I never studied nor worked there. 

And like Bev said, I don't have high incomes, all amounts are quite trivial. 

I think I will try to back-file and see what will happen. 

Cheers


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## akshat

Bevdeforges said:


> Personally, I wouldn't worry about backfiling the Schedule B if the only reason for filing it is to check the box saying you have foreign accounts. I helped a friend file this year who had to file an FBAR, but did not have to file a 1040 at all (because of inadequate income). It shouldn't cause a problem in her case, and I doubt it will in yours, either.
> Cheers,
> Bev




what constitutes as inadequate i did not file my FBAR last year (ignorance !) and am doing this year ..am wondering 1.whether to file last years also along side (with an apology letter ) or let it go ..2.also i figured that i have some interest income on my foreign accounts -small abt $200 ,so i may not have paid about $70 of tax on that ..but backfilining 1040X seems crazy ..at the same time i dont want to end up paying 10k for a small mistake !


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## Bevdeforges

akshat said:


> what constitutes as inadequate i did not file my FBAR last year (ignorance !) and am doing this year ..am wondering 1.whether to file last years also along side (with an apology letter ) or let it go ..2.also i figured that i have some interest income on my foreign accounts -small abt $200 ,so i may not have paid about $70 of tax on that ..but backfilining 1040X seems crazy ..at the same time i dont want to end up paying 10k for a small mistake !


Unless you wound up paying some fairly hefty taxes on last year's US filing, it's unlikely that $200 of interest income would cost you $70 in tax. 

The IRS simply does not have the resources to go back and find small errors like this.
Cheers,
Bev


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## akshat

Bevdeforges said:


> Unless you wound up paying some fairly hefty taxes on last year's US filing, it's unlikely that $200 of interest income would cost you $70 in tax.
> 
> The IRS simply does not have the resources to go back and find small errors like this.
> Cheers,
> Bev


I know $200 might be trivial but am scared that if i file last years FBAR without an amended tax return it may tirgger an audit ...i am still wavering between just filing this years FBAR and letting last year;s go or attaching last years FBAR with this years along with an apology letter , reading some of the earlier posts gives me some heart that if i send in a late FBAR it may be accepted without crazy penalties.

thanks


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## akshat

one more question , if i am filing last years Fbar , is it better to mail it in a separate envelope with a letter or mail it along with this years Fbar ? 

Regards


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## Bevdeforges

Best to mail each year's filing in a separate envelope. 
Cheers,
Bev


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## UStoCA

If you live outside the US and having done all your IRS returns and because of tax treaty or other reasons you owe no back taxes then I would absolutely stay far away from the OVDI program completely. That was basically just set up to capture wealthy US residents with hidden offshore accounts, but it has also had an effect of fear mongering honest law abiding citizens into labeling themselves as criminals (don't believe me, look where you're sending the info under the OVDI program). IMHO if you live overseas and owe no tax (or some immaterial amount), you are much better off doing a "quiet disclosure" and taking your chances with a very unlikely audit (remember the IRS is going to be more and more strapped for resources as they will generate mountains of paperwork with all the new regulations). The IRS penalties are all based on taxes owed so this is what makes it a much better option if you fall into this category. During a regular audit you can also make sure of the TAS (taxpayer adocate service) to get an appeal on any IRS ruling. I have heard of people getting automated letters from the IRS after late filing which may take a little while to get ironed out due to taxes owed, but you're far better off in the hands of an IRS examiner which has alot more leway in the examiner handbook than the folks at FINcen do. Remember fear is the IRS's biggest weapon and the IRS doesn't have enough resources to be taking everyone to court.

This is part of a comment from a former IRS lawyer (Steven J. Mopsick):

"Totally apart from the bait and switch issue and voluntary dislcosures, take a look at the FBAR regulations on the internet and read the sections of the Internal Revenue Manual which talk about what an agent should do if an FBAR issue pops up in one of their audits. THE MANUAL or IRM is what mid-level IRS Managers talk about sitting around at meetings all day long. It tells them how to their jobs. And if they follow the Manual at all times, they can be almost sure no one will yell at them and they can go home and enjoy a football game on TV, have some beers and not worry about work.

*The Section of the Manual on how to apply the FBAR penalties ALMOST SCREAMS out to the IRS employee, that one of the ways of disposing of the issue might be WRITING THE TAXPAYER A WARNING LETTER as the appropriate thing to do.*

Respectfully submitted,
30 Year IRS Vet"


If you have a complcated case I would certainly recommend hiring an accountant and talking to legal counsel but I offer this view just to shed some light that you have options when dealing with how to bring yourself back into compliance.


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## michaelavelli

I just filed a 2010 FBAR with a letter explaining that I was ignorant of the requirement until recently. Any ideas on what is going to happen to me, if anything? I should not owe any taxes.


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## Bevdeforges

michaelavelli said:


> I just filed a 2010 FBAR with a letter explaining that I was ignorant of the requirement until recently. Any ideas on what is going to happen to me, if anything? I should not owe any taxes.


Depends on what you reported. In most cases, there will probably be no consequences at all - provided that what you reported are the usual sorts of "normal" accounts held by overseas residents: checking, savings, maybe a retirement account of some sort, etc.

What they are looking for are "offshore" accounts designed to hide assets or income from the tax authorities - in the US or elsewhere. They obviously won't say that's what they're looking for - but that's it. 
Cheers,
Bev


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## akshat

I filed mine too with a letter explaining that i did not know that i was supposed to file last year ..now keeping my fingers crossed and hoping i wont be hanged for an honest mistake !


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## swisspinoy

akshat said:


> one more question , if i am filing last years Fbar , is it better to mail it in a separate envelope with a letter or mail it along with this years Fbar ?
> 
> Regards


How about online?

BSA E-Filing System - Enroll Now


I haven't tried this myself yet, but it seems to be possible to enroll and doing this online is easier, safer, faster and less expensive than sending ancient snail mail.


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## Bevdeforges

It depends on your specific circumstances. As some posters have mentioned, if you're filing as the spouse of an NRA (non-resident alien), the new online filing system for FBARs may not work for you. You can try it - but if you can't e-file, it's a little late for a timely filing for 2011 by postal mail. Still, if what you have to report is relatively innocent, it's better to file a little late than not at all.
Cheers,
Bev


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## swisspinoy

Bevdeforges said:


> It depends on your specific circumstances. As some posters have mentioned, if you're filing as the spouse of an NRA (non-resident alien), the new online filing system for FBARs may not work for you. You can try it - but if you can't e-file, it's a little late for a timely filing for 2011 by postal mail. Still, if what you have to report is relatively innocent, it's better to file a little late than not at all.
> Cheers,
> Bev


I'm all for fighting crime, but I wonder if the US government ever considered the possibility that 6+ million snail mail letters from around the world and addressed to the "United States Department of the Treasury", containing the sensitive whereabouts and financial data of targets of terrorism, would fall into the wrong hands while being passed around from one foreign stranger to another during its long travel to Detroit.

Filing this online is far safer and much more reliable. The last thing that an American would want would be for them to be fined $10000+ by the US government since a terrorist intercepted their FBAR letter titled to the "United States Department of the Treasury" and emptied their bank accounts prior to kidnapping their kids, thanks to the easily identifiable data provided. 

Example:
200 in county recent victims of mail theft | HeraldNet.com - Local news

_"In today's society, the old mailbox needs to go away," he said. "I think you need to be real careful now and get a secured mailbox."_


----------



## Bevdeforges

At some point in this life, you plays the game and you takes your chances.

Putting any information about your whereabouts at all on Facebook runs the same risk, at least as far as terrorists are concerned. 

Besides, as another poster has shared with us all, there are new published rules about back filing FBARS: http://www.expatforum.com/expats/ex...nt-new-irs-guidlines-re-back-taxes-fbars.html This seems to indicate they are willing to be somewhat reasonable about late filings.

Hell, many overseas taxpayers can't e-file due to age or income restrictions on the free-file sites, and for many of us it seems a bit ludicrous to pay to file a return saying that we owe $0.
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## swisspinoy

Bevdeforges said:


> At some point in this life, you plays the game and you takes your chances.
> 
> Putting any information about your whereabouts at all on Facebook runs the same risk, at least as far as terrorists are concerned.


True, but Facebook is a voluntary and controllable risk, while FBAR is an involuntary risk which incorrectly recomments snail mail since e-filing wasn't previously available.



> Besides, as another poster has shared with us all, there are new published rules about back filing FBARS: http://www.expatforum.com/expats/ex...nt-new-irs-guidlines-re-back-taxes-fbars.html This seems to indicate they are willing to be somewhat reasonable about late filings.


Yes, it focus on those Americans in America who try to evade taxes, not those who pay them (hopefully).



> Hell, many overseas taxpayers can't e-file due to age or income restrictions on the free-file sites, and for many of us it seems a bit ludicrous to pay to file a return saying that we owe $0.


I used to respond to those by not filing at all, until I invented a magical $1 income that the IRS is fine with. The IRS should explain how one can invent a $1 income to free-file for those fussy ones. Yet, this doesn't work with those silly ones who reject non-US addresses or refuse to e-file the form 2555. I didn't file in those years either and the only workaround is to use a different service then next year when one tries again.


----------



## Bevdeforges

swisspinoy said:


> I used to respond to those by not filing at all, until I invented a magical $1 income that the IRS is fine with. The IRS should explain how one can invent a $1 income to free-file for those fussy ones. Yet, this doesn't work with those silly ones who reject non-US addresses or refuse to e-file the form 2555. I didn't file in those years either and the only workaround is to use a different service then next year when one tries again.


There are those of us who simply CANNOT e-file from overseas. (At least not for free.) But I suppose any terrorist who hijacks my tax return will see pretty quickly and easily that I'm probably not going to help their cause much. 



> Yes, it focus on those Americans in America who try to evade taxes, not those who pay them (hopefully).


The IRS webpage that was referenced starts out with the following:



> The Service is announcing a new procedure *for current non-residents* *including, but not limited to, dual citizens* who have not filed U.S. income tax and information returns to file their delinquent returns.


Not sure how much more clearly they can state things.
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## swisspinoy

Bevdeforges said:


> The IRS webpage that was referenced starts out with the following:
> 
> Not sure how much more clearly they can state things.


Well, in that case, I'm sure that many Americans abroad will be happy to work with the IRS in trying to figure out how to e-file with any of the many services which won't allow such. My 2010 return is still pending with the following message:


_While reviewing your return, we found data which will be rejected by the IRS. Please review these errors and fix them. The system will take you to the return editing page when you press continue.

It appears that you have not entered any sources of income. Please be sure that all sources of income have been properly entered. For example check to make sure that the system has record of all W-2s and Form 1099-Rs._

In that case, I didn't bother with inventing a magic $1.


----------



## byline

jimmyjam said:


> Any late amendment or filing, that does not go through the dreaded OVDP program, is a "quiet" disclosure.


My understanding is that quiet disclosure is actually directed at those people who deliberately hid money from the IRS and thus were required to go into the voluntary disclosure program. But rather than going the voluntary disclosure route, they simply revised past tax returns and quietly sent them in, going under the radar to avoid penalties. According to the IRS clarification, people who owe no taxes cannot be assessed any penalties (but I guess it's the question of whether one owes that could be sticky for many). However, for those who simply did not know and owe no taxes, then find out and make a good-faith effort to catch up, I don't believe there is that much to get stressed out over (other than the headache of increasingly complicated forms to fill out).


----------



## swisspinoy

byline said:


> I don't believe there is that much to get stressed out over (other than the headache of increasingly complicated forms to fill out).


That and the fact that the IRS doesn't seem to want us to e-file the forms anyways. It never ceases to amaze me that a country which is all big about citizenship-based taxation makes a big fuss about foreign addresses or filing forms for foreign earned income.


----------



## JohnTK

I wonder if anyone has any bang-up-to-date information regarding the non filing of FBARS. My wife who is a US citizen has filed her tax returns regularly - and has not needed to pay any US tax in recent years. She is about to file this weekend. She has, however, never filled in the FBAR form and is now aware that there are grevous penalties for not doing this.

Can anyone advise if I have read the up-to-date rules correctly That is she files delinquent FBAR forms for the past six years, together with a covering note, and has complied with all the US tax return regulations, she is unlikely to be subject to penalties? One of the things that I noticed is that she has had a very small US income - from some investments there - but this together with her UK income has not in the past six years taken her to the level where she has to pay any US tax. Her UK funds are primarily tied up in pension schemes and ISAs .

What would your advice be please anyone. We are, naturally, very worried about this because both of us are now in our sixties and if a heavy penalty is enacted our retirement funds would be wiped out.

Thanks for your help.
John


----------



## swisspinoy

JohnTK said:


> I wonder if anyone has any bang-up-to-date information regarding the non filing of FBARS. My wife who is a US citizen has filed her tax returns regularly - and has not needed to pay any US tax in recent years. She is about to file this weekend. She has, however, never filled in the FBAR form and is now aware that there are grevous penalties for not doing this.
> 
> Can anyone advise if I have read the up-to-date rules correctly That is she files delinquent FBAR forms for the past six years, together with a covering note, and has complied with all the US tax return regulations, she is unlikely to be subject to penalties? One of the things that I noticed is that she has had a very small US income - from some investments there - but this together with her UK income has not in the past six years taken her to the level where she has to pay any US tax. Her UK funds are primarily tied up in pension schemes and ISAs .
> 
> What would your advice be please anyone. We are, naturally, very worried about this because both of us are now in our sixties and if a heavy penalty is enacted our retirement funds would be wiped out.
> 
> Thanks for your help.
> John


FBAR can be efiled here: BSA E-Filing System - Enroll Now

I have not read or heard of any situation where anyone was fined for not filing FBARs outside of OVDI. I have heard of warning letters, though, to those who have not filed. I filed FBAR last year for the first time and didn't have any problems. I'd say, just relax, file 2012 before the deadline, or more with a note if one wants to. It might make sense to call the Dept of Treasury to see what they want filed, or contacting a CPA or lawyer might be safer. Since your spouse filed her tax returns regularly, I seriously doubt that she would have any problems.


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## Bevdeforges

Unless she is a signer on some large accounts (or a large total of all accounts), particularly those that should have appeared on her income tax forms, but didn't, I really wouldn't worry about filing the FBARs in arrears. Just file the 6 years (estimating the high balances if you can't dig up the precise figures) and explain that she didn't realize she was subject to FBAR filing until recently.
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## JohnTK

Bevdeforges said:


> Unless she is a signer on some large accounts (or a large total of all accounts), particularly those that should have appeared on her income tax forms, but didn't, I really wouldn't worry about filing the FBARs in arrears. Just file the 6 years (estimating the high balances if you can't dig up the precise figures) and explain that she didn't realize she was subject to FBAR filing until recently.
> Cheers,
> Bev


She has a couple of pension plans and investments which produced about $80 of income in the past year. She has filed us tax returns and has not had to pay any tax for the past six years in the us, has always declared her income from investments but never realised the FBAR was necessary (ignorance like an earlier poster). So is this the best course then - getting all six past year FBARs filed ASAP?

Thanks for your reply and to the previous poster! My wife has been totally freaked out by this all.
Cheers
John


----------



## whatshouldido

JohnTK said:


> I wonder if anyone has any bang-up-to-date information regarding the non filing of FBARS. My wife who is a US citizen has filed her tax returns regularly - and has not needed to pay any US tax in recent years. She is about to file this weekend. She has, however, never filled in the FBAR form and is now aware that there are grevous penalties for not doing this.
> John


Hi John,

I myself was in a similar situation; I had filed my tax returns and FBARS until I stopped working to raise my young children. Since I didn't have any income I no longer filed my tax returns and I completely forgot/neglected/didn't think of filing the FBARS for a period of about 4 years.

When I realized about the penalties I filed everything in one go, that was several years ago just before the first OVDI problem. There were several years worth of FBAR and several accounts, the total penalty bill would have been debilitating. The swiss scandal was just breaking but we were not in the thick of it the way we are now.

Indeed I lost many nights sleep and went through a pretty severe depression worrying about the eventual consequences, if the penalties were applied in full I would be destitute and my life would no longer be worth living. As it is I have lost all joy in life and all belief in fairness and justice.

I can tell you that several years down the line, I have never had any feedback and no warning or penalty notices.

Two issues bother me still however, one you can't do anything about, the other you may also have to ponder:

(1) There is never going to be any kind of "closure", if I understand correctly, living outside the US, they can come back whenever they want with the penalties so there is no date, when I'm 60, when I'm 65 ot 70, when I can sit back and breathe and say whew, I guess it's over now.

(2) Even if you are in compliance, the rules constantly change, the limits are not indexed and can be lowered, new rules will apply each year, banking services will be denied to us, transfers between US citizens and their foreign families will be more and more scrutinized upon death or otherwise... I do not see how it is possible to continue living with this burden, and it seems to me there are only 2 solutions, move back to the states or else give up my US passport. How can you move "back" to a country you never worked in, have never lived in for 30 years, when you are near retirement age?


----------



## JohnTK

Phew - I do see your point. We have gone through that. The advice and general feedback seems to be positive in terms of no penalities anyone has heard off and we are presently gathering all the necessary to do the FBARS. But my wife cannot at present give up citizenship (nor does she want to) because of an ageing father plus the fact that the US will charge more than 100 per cent death duties on money left to someone who is NOT a US citizen. So she would lose his entire estate (not vast in any way but certainly needed to help us endure a decent retirement). It all seems very unfair and unnecessary.

Also she has discovered that income from her UK pension - tied up in a Sipp - will be taxed by the US government as well as the Uk government when she retires. but we have a few years to find ways around that.


----------



## whatshouldido

JohnTK said:


> But my wife cannot at present give up citizenship (nor does she want to) because of an ageing father plus the fact that the US will charge more than 100 per cent death duties on money left to someone who is NOT a US citizen. So she would lose his entire estate (not vast in any way but certainly needed to help us endure a decent retirement). It all seems very unfair and unnecessary.
> 
> Also she has discovered that income from her UK pension - tied up in a Sipp - will be taxed by the US government as well as the Uk government when she retires. but we have a few years to find ways around that.



(1) Giving up citizenship does NOT mean she can never go back to the US to visit her gain father; she should be treated as any other Canadian (?) after renunciation; I have several sources to follow this people who have chosen to emigrate have NOT had problems at the border, including reports from my immigration attorney who I frequently consult on this subject.

(2) Could you tell me more about the 100% tax on inheritance tax if left to non US person.

(3) Yes the US government will tax every low-tax and tax free investment you have, as well as capital gains if you sell your house, etc (AMT not deductible from local taxes). As a US person you are excluded from any retirement incentive your local government may have given you. If you one day are eligible for any kind of disability or social contributions a part will go into uncle sam's pocket too.


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## Bevdeforges

OK, enough hysterics. 

1. It isn't necessary to renounce in order to work around many of the problems and inconveniences of the US tax obligations. But, as what says, it doesn't mean you can never return to the US either. There seem to be some organizations whipping up the issue of renunciation "for everyone" when it's simply not necessary.

2. What John is referring to is the elimination of the exemption from taxation for non-US citizens who inherit from a US citizen. Biggest example is that a non US citizen who inherits from his or her US citizen spouse is not entitled to the spousal exemption. US citizens can pass any amount to their US citizen spouse without the payment of inheritance tax. For other heirs, there are fixed amounts that can be inherited before the estate tax kicks in. But, Federal inheritance tax doesn't apply to any estate under about $3 million at this point.

3. This is, for the most part, rubbish. Yes, "unearned" income (i.e. just about anything other than salary) is subject to tax for the US citizen living overseas - but there is the foreign tax credit that can be applied for taxes paid where you live. Under the social security tax treaties that the US has with many countries, government pensions are normally taxed in the country of origin. And, in any case, all the normal exemptions (personal exemption, for example) and deductions (standard deduction or itemized) apply against any income remaining in AGI after the FEIE is applied.

It's a PITA, but it's not the gloom and doom some people are trying to make it.
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## whatshouldido

Bevdeforges said:


> 2. What John is referring to is the elimination of the exemption from taxation for non-US citizens who inherit from a US citizen. Biggest example is that a non US citizen who inherits from his or her US citizen spouse is not entitled to the spousal exemption. US citizens can pass any amount to their US citizen spouse without the payment of inheritance tax. For other heirs, there are fixed amounts that can be inherited before the estate tax kicks in. But, Federal inheritance tax doesn't apply to any estate under about $3 million at this point.
> 
> 3. This is, for the most part, rubbish. Yes, "unearned" income (i.e. just about anything other than salary) is subject to tax for the US citizen living overseas - but there is the foreign tax credit that can be applied for taxes paid where you live. Under the social security tax treaties that the US has with many countries, government pensions are normally taxed in the country of origin. And, in any case, all the normal exemptions (personal exemption, for example) and deductions (standard deduction or itemized) apply against any income remaining in AGI after the FEIE is applied.
> 
> It's a PITA, but it's not the gloom and doom some people are trying to make it.
> Cheers,
> Bev



Thanks for the clarification, so on point 2: the US does NOT confiscate 100% of the amount of an inheritance left to a non-us person, the only thing is the exemptions will be lower or nonexistent. That's what I thought.

On point 3, Bev, does your reasoning take into account the fact that RETIREES do not have any more EARNED income and that their tax credits from their salary life will run out after 10 years. An older retiree will be living on passive income alone, therefore fully taxable by the US. Could you please clarify because I see you making this remark in other threads as well. You seem to say that anyone with passive income is "rich" but it could be that they are retirees living off their hard earned retirement investments. Thanks for that.


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## Bevdeforges

Retirement income gets tricky. But in most countries I've lived in, retirement income is taxed to some extent (certainly it is here in France), as is passive income from investments. In that case, you have the local income tax to offset against any US tax on retirement income from outside the US. Past age 65, the US also increases the "standard deduction" by a bit (admittedly not enough).

I admit that it it shameful that the US doesn't allow for foreign retirement savings plans that are virtually identical to the US IRA, especially when you see that the UK recognizes a US IRA as a form of QROPS for UK tax purposes. There is, however, no one "correct" way to report things on US tax forms, and it can depend on some creative and clever interpretation of the rules and instructions. That's what you wind up paying a tax adviser for, if you choose to use one. Unfortunately you need to be wary of those tax advisers who are doing the fear mongering in order to increase their bottom line.
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## miciolina

*FBAR questions*

Hi,
This is my first post in the expat forum. I am a US citizen married to an Italian citizen, living in Italy for 12 yrs.
There have been a number of articles in the US about how us Expats are going to have to pay more and fears of forgein bank accounts etc.
I just learned this year (month!) about the FBAR but I also read that if the bank account is in both names, it may be subject to exemption. I couldn't find any other information, does someone know of this?

Also, my husband and i opened a small business a few years ago. I am listed as a 50% company owner but I don't actively work in the company (i have another job and pay my US taxes based on this full time position) and nor my husband or I have received money from this company as we just keep investing it. Do I have to report this?

Sorry for the questions but my parents are freaking with all the news they seen lately in the US!!


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## Bevdeforges

OK, first of all take a deep breath. Even if your parents are freaking out, things aren't quite as bad as the media likes to portray them.

The FBAR reporting is nothing more or less than what used to be called "the Treasury forms" where you report your ownership of, or signature authority over foreign bank and investment type accounts. This is the IRS' FAQ page on FBAR filings: http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small...ial-Accounts-(FBAR)---Filing-Requirements#FR9

The issue of what you report when you are an owner of a foreign company isn't part of the FBAR filing (unless you have signature authority over the company's bank accounts). There is also something called FATCA, which is a form you file with your regular income tax forms. You should probably read through the information sheet on form 8938 to see whether or not any of this applies to you: Do I need to file Form 8938, ?Statement of Specified Foreign Financial Assets??
Cheers,
Bev


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## santafe

*miciolina business*

miciolina,

Regarding the small business, which I assume is in Italy, as far as the US is concerned you are the owner of foreign corporation, and you should be filing the form5471 with your US tax return each year. It is an information return. Like the FBAR and FATCA fillings there are penalties for failure to file a timely 5471.


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## miciolina

Thanks Bevdeforges. One the first link I couldn't find the exemptions (such as both my husband and I have joint signature on the account). 
Regarding forge in assets, I'm assuming that also means property? I recently purchased a house in Italy, only in my name and the value is above those listed but I pay the necessary taxes here in Italy for this house. I guess I will have to do this. 
Ugh, it is just becoming so difficult to stay on top of this and I would prefer not to pay a lawyer to do everything.


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## miciolina

Thanks. I will look into these forms as well.


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## Verdande

*Included*

Good to read - I am in this situation now, having discovered my reporting obligations a month ago. Do you have any tips as to how to word the cover-letter? The idea of including the info from the irs form is good - did you refer directly to the webpage or just include the wording that applied to your situation?. I will check to see if the irs webpage has been revised/updated.
Regards



graubart said:


> I discovered my tax and reporting requirements last fall and back filed six years of tax plus FBAR in December. I did it manually and screwed it up and so filed 6 1040x in March to correct it. I recently received 6 letters from the IRS, one for each year, that said:
> 
> "We have reviewed your information and determined no action was necessary on your account."
> 
> I included a cover letter with the FBARs with points from this IRS web page that applied to me:
> 
> Information for U.S. Citizens or Dual Citizens Residing Outside the U.S.
> 
> Lawyers and accountants are not necessary for most people who haven't been hiding anything, just making an honest mistake.


----------



## Verdande

*Separate envelopes*

If there are 4 persons all sending late to the irs and treasury should each one send in their own envelopes for each year or could we include all 4 returns for 2007 in one envelope, 2008 in one envelope etc.? 





Bevdeforges said:


> Best to mail each year's filing in a separate envelope.
> Cheers,
> Bev


----------



## franek

*Past due FBARs*

phew..

if two latest FBARs are in place already should SWIM worry about sending in the earlier 4 they just discovered may have been necessary? Isn't that going to look strange? If yes, how should they be sent...

Already submitted FBARs already have those accounts disclosed...

This is causing real anxiety and depression...there is nothing to hide...nothing...

any advice?

fyi

statute of limitation for civil is 6 yrs...


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## Bevdeforges

As of July of this year, they claim that they are only accepting FBAR filings electronically. Check the website for filing to see what they have to say about backfiling.
Cheers,
Bev


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## franek

if it is electronic than I guess sending in fbars to back fill without raising eye brows is out of the question...does it mean I will get penalized ? I owe $25, $5 and $5 for those 3 tax years after amending locally but cannot amend those returns anymore...older than 3 years...


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## BBCWatcher

I continue to be amazed with these questions. Right now the U.S. Treasury Department isn't referring cases of FBAR nonfiling for prosecution unless there are other circumstances (such as serious unpaid tax liabilities/tax evasion), and there's a voluntary disclosure program that could end at any time. In the future, maybe that leniency will change.

I'd take the deal and file. What's the alternative? Live in fear for the rest of your life that you might be prosecuted?

Your tax liabilities (or not) are perhaps interesting but have nothing whatsoever to do with FBAR filing -- they're separate filing requirements with separate recipients.


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## belier

franek said:


> if it is electronic than I guess sending in fbars to back fill without raising eye brows is out of the question...does it mean I will get penalized ? I owe $25, $5 and $5 for those 3 tax years after amending locally but cannot amend those returns anymore...older than 3 years...


I' m in a similar situation. I'm a dual citizen who has never lived or worked in the states. I learned about my filing obligations in 2012 and had my 1040 and FBAR filed for 2011 (no tax due). I haven't heard anything from the IRS yet. 
As I renounced my U.S. citizenship a month ago, I now have to come clean for the past 5 years. I already prepared the respective returns and FBAR's (i figured no tax due). I cannot participate in the streamlined procedures, as I already filed a return (2011). I'm now planning to file each tax return separately (2008, 2009, 2010, 2012), which I hope shouldn't cause a problem, as I do not owe any taxes. But I wonder how to file the FBARs. As now it has do be done electronically, I' d have to file 4 FBAR's at the same time (except 2011 which has already been filed). Should I just file? Or should I sent a letter that before 2011 I wasn't aware of my filing obligations?

Any suggestions or experiences are highly appreciated!


----------



## belier

Thank you for your quick reply, globalintelhub!

I just read the following in the 2012 OVDP Frequently Asked Questions and Answers:

"17. I have properly reported all my taxable income but I only recently learned that I should have been filing FBARs in prior years to report my personal foreign bank account or to report the fact that I have signature authority over bank accounts owned by my employer. May I come forward under this new program to correct this?

The purpose for the voluntary disclosure practice is to provide a way for taxpayers who did not report taxable income in the past to come forward voluntarily and resolve their tax matters. Thus, if you reported, and paid tax on, all taxable income but did not file FBARs, do not use the voluntary disclosure process.
For taxpayers who reported, and paid tax on, all their taxable income for prior years but did not file FBARs, you should file the delinquent FBARs according to the FBAR instructions and include a statement explaining why the FBARs are filed late. (...) After June 30, 2013, you must file electronically. (...).
The IRS will not impose a penalty for the failure to file the delinquent FBARs if there are no underreported tax liabilities and you have not previously been contacted regarding an income tax examination or a request for delinquent returns.
(...)
NOTE: Taxpayers filing FBARs electronically do not currently have the technological ability to include a statement explaining why the FBARs are filed late. Until such time that they have the ability, it is sufficient to file the FBARs electronically, retain the statement, and submit the statement to the Service upon request."

I guess if now I file my 1040 returns (no tax due if I calculated correctly), I'm considered having properly reported all my taxable income. So after having filed the 1040s, I'll e-file the missing FBAR's without any statement. Do you agree? Thanks!


----------



## Bevdeforges

belier said:


> I guess if now I file my 1040 returns (no tax due if I calculated correctly), I'm considered having properly reported all my taxable income. So after having filed the 1040s, I'll e-file the missing FBAR's without any statement. Do you agree? Thanks!


That definitely sounds like the best approach.

You have to file electronically now for all FBAR filings. (How people without Internet connections are supposed to file, I'll never know.) So if they can't take a statement, just prepare one and keep it somewhere safe. If and when they ask for the statement, you can just send it off. (But chances are, they'll never ask for it.)
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## BBCWatcher

Bevdeforges said:


> How people without Internet connections are supposed to file, I'll never know.


They find someone who does, quite simply. No great mystery.

Many disabled Americans have been unable to file tax returns personally for a century or so. Other people assist them. Sometimes those other people are paid, and sometimes not.


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## Bevdeforges

BBCWatcher said:


> They find someone who does, quite simply. No great mystery.
> 
> Many disabled Americans have been unable to file tax returns personally for a century or so. Other people assist them. Sometimes those other people are paid, and sometimes not.


But read the instructions on the site, though (yeah, I know, atypical behavior for most of us). According to the instructions, you can only file for another person if you are a) a paid preparer with a "professional" account (which I think involves paying a fee) or b) the spouse of the person filing the FBAR and have a signed statement from the filer authorizing you to file for them. That part really bothered me when I was checking how this will work for the friend I help with her taxes. Unless, of course, they have changed this all in the last couple of months. With the shutdown in DC I figure most government websites are probably not being updated at the moment.
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## BBCWatcher

And the instructions are entirely consistent with what I just wrote, aren't they?

....Or c) find a way personally to get online and file. Such as a public library, Internet cafe, or a friend's computer.

Sure, this'll require a few individuals to adjust. Stipulated. But it's now _reasonable_ in 2013 and beyond to require Internet filing. As a couple other examples, you cannot buy a U.S. savings bond in paper form any more, and you cannot participate in the U.S. diversity visa lottery except through online application. It's at least very difficult to get Social Security to send you a paper benefit check, and it's impossible in all states (or all but a very few) to get food stamp benefits in any form other than an electronic debit card which is only accepted at food sellers that accept debit cards. Progress!


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## belier

Thanks for your input! I just sent my 1040s by mail yesterday. they should have it by the end of the week. 

When do you think should I e-file the fbars? Should I wait until they have the 1040s? Or does it even matter? (shutdown etc)

Regards
belier


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## BBCWatcher

I would say the shutdown is a really good time to e-file your FBARs, actually. All the auditors have been sent home, and when they come back they're probably going to ignore all but the most suspicious/egregious filings that accumulated while they were away. Plus the U.S. Treasury is still running its temporary amnesty program, and there's no way of knowing when that might end.

Now is good, very good.


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## belier

that makes sense to me. I just wondered bacause of the q&a 17 I mentioned obove. right now, I have only mailed my 1040s, so do I already comply with all my filing obligations (of course except the fbars)? Or am I too cautious about this detail?

And what about the temporary amnesty program? Do you mean the q&a 17 by that?

Thanks!


----------



## belier

This is to let you know that there has been an update on the e-file FBAR form. If you're filing late you're now supposed to state the reason for your noncompliance. You can choose from preset answers or use your own words. 

I filed my missing FBARs yesterday and thank god I'm now done with all my filing obligations


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## BBCWatcher

That's probably an _especially_ good idea for residents of Switzerland, so congratulations on getting that done.


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## kw45

*Late fbar.. paper filed*

I just found out that I needed to file a fbar for 2012 on fri..10/11/13 while I was completing my 1040.... I filed the fbar on paper, with attached letter apologizing for tardiness, and that I was not aware I had to file it, and mailed it to Detroit... then I started researching about it and found that I am supposed to efile.. The checking account was opened in 2012,, non interest bearing account, so no income, with agg total of 10900. I've read and researched over the last 2 days, and I'm unsure if I should call up FinCen to ask what I should do, or leave it alone. My questions are:
Should I refile it online now, or wait for some kind of response from FinCen. or do nothing?
Should I call and ask for an exemption to efile, after already mailing it?

My gut tells me to wait... but I would like opinions as to next action I should take!
Thanks....KW


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## Bevdeforges

kw45 said:


> I just found out that I needed to file a fbar for 2012 on fri..10/11/13 while I was completing my 1040.... I filed the fbar on paper, with attached letter apologizing for tardiness, and that I was not aware I had to file it, and mailed it to Detroit... then I started researching about it and found that I am supposed to efile.. The checking account was opened in 2012,, non interest bearing account, so no income, with agg total of 10900. I've read and researched over the last 2 days, and I'm unsure if I should call up FinCen to ask what I should do, or leave it alone. My questions are:
> Should I refile it online now, or wait for some kind of response from FinCen. or do nothing?
> Should I call and ask for an exemption to efile, after already mailing it?
> 
> My gut tells me to wait... but I would like opinions as to next action I should take!
> Thanks....KW


I'd wait it out and see if they bother to come back to you at all. For a small account like that, and filing just a few months after the "deadline" I suspect they may just let it go - or at worst just send you a "warning" letter.

Keep us posted when/if you hear anything back from them.
Cheers,
Bev


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## kw45

Thanks.... that's what my accountant said also...will keep posted!


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