# the dream of retiring to Spain



## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

Greetings again. I'm a long time member and infrequent poster. I thought I would find more posts from Americans wanting to escape to Spain with the recent news of the criminal's acquittal. Alas....I only perused two pages of the main forum.

I had hoped that we'd be retiring to Malaga this summer/fall. Well, that's not happening for a variety of reasons that I won't bore you with. However, we made a deposit for a trip to Spain this coming September, 5 nights in Malaga, 4 nights in Madrid. Last year we made a similar trip with the idea of checking out a couple of apartments and really thinking seriously "do we really want to do this?" That trip was marred by my injured shoulders and well, it colored everything. Which also affected my ability to gauge whether I really want to make this huge change. Every winter here in the frozen tundra I get that spark again "I need to get out of here!!!" And that has become more profound with what's been happening in my country, the good ol' U.S. of A. 

So, back to the reason for this post. One of my Facebook friends upon my comment after viewing this cool video from Denmark (that I'm linking here) "I'm moving to Denmark now!!" wrote this: cursory search for "how to move to....." and it appears difficult for Americans to move anywhere. No wonder really, we sorta suck at this moment.

I haven't looked into it to see if that's true. Instead I came here to see if anyone here has any evidence of that. 

My new hope is that we get to embark on our dream to retire to Malaga _next_ year, perhaps August or September of 2021, assuming things fall into place where they didn't for this year.

Okay, short novella is over now 

I'm hoping to visit more regularly now that my spark has been reignited. (do check out the link above from Denmark. It's really good!!)


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

As a Third Country national (i.e. non-EU national), you need a visa to live in Spain, and for retirement (no job or self-employment), you need non-lucrative visa. There is a long list of requirements, including financial, health insurance, criminal record check, medical, housing etc. If you go on Spanish consulate site covering your state, you get details. Visa can take several months to come through. 
Warmest part (other than the Canaries) is Southern Spain on the coast, roughly Costa del Sol, Almeria and Murcia, followed by South East such as Costa Blanca.


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

Yep, already know all that. I also know Spain a little bit having lived in Madrid as a college student and taken many trips since then.

I was more interested in learning if anyone's heard of what my friend found doing a quick google search.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Hi Toby
I'm not going to do a post-quote. Liked the video - very good. 
We all have a limited time here on this planet so the longer you delay following your dream the less time you will have to enjoy it. I am 79 this year and this is our 12th year here, so by the 'three score and ten' rule I should have only had three years of Spain before wooden box time but life here is so good and so enjoyable, I am well into overtime. I have had two heart attacks and a serious bout of pneumonia all of which have been dealt with extremely well in the local hospitals. So Toby, my message to you is to get off your ass and do it.

Why Málaga? There is much much more of Spain to enjoy. Málaga is, for us, a place to be bypassed, en-route to somewhere else and this year, for us, our September holiday will be in Ronda and our winter holiday will be inland in a Natural Park.

Move away from the tourist areas and you will, in general, more of the caring sharing attitudes.


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> Hi Toby
> I'm not going to do a post-quote. Liked the video - very good.
> We all have a limited time here on this planet so the longer you delay following your dream the less time you will have to enjoy it. I am 79 this year and this is our 12th year here, so by the 'three score and ten' rule I should have only had three years of Spain before wooden box time but life here is so good and so enjoyable, I am well into overtime. I have had two heart attacks and a serious bout of pneumonia all of which have been dealt with extremely well in the local hospitals. So Toby, my message to you is to get off your ass and do it.
> 
> ...


Hi Baldilocks. I wasn't going to do the quote thing either but then I couldn't find the emoticons. Thanks for your reply!! I do hear what you're saying about getting off my ass. So aptly put too, I might add. 

So, here's the main reason we didn't do it this year: I injured my shoulders on the job which pushed everything off. Namely updating our kitchen which we need to sell our house. and we need to sell our house in order to move. I know, conundrum. Okay, maybe that's not a good word but it will suffice for the moment. You're absolutely right about time......hubby is 65 and just retired last summer and has been pressuring me to decide about where we're going.

Malaga because we fell in love with it in 2010. But yea, the trip last year we really noticed a change from the last time we were there. Extremely touristy!! I've also always been a big city girl and Malaga seemed a good spot on the southern coast. Also, hubby doesn't speak Spanish  (I do) so my thinking is a bigger town would be better for him. We still found more of the caring/sharing attitudes last year but, okay, I hear you. Perhaps we could start there and explore different towns once we're there.

So, kitchen update is being restarted right now and will hopefully be done next month. One more large expense that I'm putting off until right before we sell, probably spring of 2021.......

That's just a little bit of why the postponement.....again, thanks for your thoughts! I appreciate them so much.


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

another interesting aside....in the Madrid airport on our way back home last year we met a couple from New York. She has Spanish roots and they visit northern Spain every year at that time (I wonder if we'll bump into them again this year....). They said a similar thing "why Malaga?" and said they were planning to retire to northern Spain where they have land. Yea, so much to think about.


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## anh12 (Apr 17, 2019)

tobyo said:


> and it appears difficult for Americans to move anywhere. No wonder really, we sorta suck at this moment.
> 
> I haven't looked into it to see if that's true. Instead I came here to see if anyone here has any evidence of that.


I really don't think it's any more difficult for Americans to move to another country than people of other nationalities. (Other nationals moving to the US - now that's tricky.)

Every country has its rules and regulations when it comes to foreigners moving in, mostly to protect employment, social services, etc. I've never heard of a country that has singled out citizens of the United States who just want to retire there and said, no, we don't want Americans. We don't like your government right now so we don't want you. I guess it could happen, but I'm not aware of any.

Are you asking if Americans are seen, in general, as undesirables because of recent political goings-on? If that's the question, I would say no. My experiences living in countries in four continents and traveling extensively is that people are really good at separating US politics from the US expats and visitors they meet. I have never experienced anger or disgust directed to me simply because I'm an American. (Of course, there are a few specific places I wouldn't go to in the Middle East at the moment. And I spend most of my time in the Middle East.) If anything, I get sympathy! 

Americans do need to be careful to not overdo it with talking politics while overseas, but that's a matter of common sense and respect to the host country and its citizens. I don't think it has turned into any formal denial of Americans to live in a country outside their usual regulations for foreigners.

Anyway, I can't wait to retire fulltime to Spain myself and not just the few months I can get away now. Have you considered the Costa Blanca? There is a large English speaking community, tons to do to stay busy, it's beautiful, and the climate is wonderful. I speak fluent Spanish (lived in Madrid for many years) but it's also nice to speak English now and then, and the expat community there is quite friendly. Sadly, the one place I won't move back to is the US. Even visiting is getting harder and harder.


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

Thanks so much anh12!! We never talk politics while in Spain unless asked. For example, when were there in early 2016 we got asked by many people what we thought would happen. This last time I only remember one look of disgust in a store when the gal asked us where we were from and I didn't say anything like "we don't like him either!!" One other time was a waitress who spoke 5 languages and when she learned we were from the U.S. she said "I'd love to go to America but not while "the chump" (she said his name but I refuse to) is president". That time we agreed with her.

I'm really happy to read your perspective. I'm mostly worried about getting a Visa and if politics would play into that decision on the consulate's part since they will say yea or nay. 

and now I'm rethinking our trip for this coming September. Now I'm thinking maybe we'll do 6 nights in Malaga so that we can maybe check out a couple of towns nearby. So, a new question (or I wonder if I should start a new post?): which towns close to Malaga do others live for us to check out while we're there? Mijas has piqued my interest but would love to hear about some others.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> Why Málaga? There is much much more of Spain to enjoy. Málaga is, for us, a place to be bypassed, en-route to somewhere else and this year, for us, our September holiday will be in Ronda and our winter holiday will be inland in a Natural Park.


Er - Ronda is in Málaga. The province also has a number of natural and national parks.

Málaga city is a really cool place now too, lots of good restaurants and art galleries. Completely regenerated over the past few years. (And not that many tourists as they've all gone on daytrips to Ronda!)


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

tobyo said:


> and now I'm rethinking our trip for this coming September. Now I'm thinking maybe we'll do 6 nights in Malaga so that we can maybe check out a couple of towns nearby. So, a new question (or I wonder if I should start a new post?): which towns close to Malaga do others live for us to check out while we're there? Mijas has piqued my interest but would love to hear about some others.


I would check out Estepona, a coastal city to the west of Malaga. It's big enough to have the full range of facilities, not just a tourist resort/expat colony. It has some very attractive features in the old town, a mile-long botanical garden along the esplanade, and some pretty villages and countryside to visit inland.


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> Er - Ronda is in Málaga. The province also has a number of natural and national parks.
> 
> Málaga city is a really cool place now too, lots of good restaurants and art galleries. Completely regenerated over the past few years. (And not that many tourists as they've all gone on daytrips to Ronda!)


a woman after my own heart!! Yes, Malaga city is a cool place! However, I'd have to disagree about the tourists. There were plenty last September


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> I would check out Estepona, a coastal city to the west of Malaga. It's big enough to have the full range of facilities, not just a tourist resort/expat colony. It has some very attractive features in the old town, a mile-long botanical garden along the esplanade, and some pretty villages and countryside to visit inland.


Oh thanks!! I'll definitely check into Estepona.


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## Gardenofengland (Mar 2, 2017)

Check out wagonersabroad.com they have lots of useful information for Americans.


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

Gardenofengland said:


> Check out wagonersabroad.com they have lots of useful information for Americans.


oh yea, already know about them. thanks!


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

It seems to me that it has not become any more difficult for Americans to move to France. For some skilled workers it has become easier because of the talent passport, and, whilst the cost of living, including housing, is higher in France, non-EU retirees don't need such a high income to move to France as they do to move to Spain. I also don't think for one minute that people here in France hold Americans responsible for the state of US politics.

And I suspect there are more Americans in France than in Spain.

Why anyone would think that because it might be difficult for Americans to move to Denmark would mean that it is difficult for Americans to move elsewhere in the EU is beyond me, given that immigration matters relating to third country citizens is a sovereign right and has nothing to do with the EU.


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

EverHopeful said:


> It seems to me that it has not become any more difficult for Americans to move to France. For some skilled workers it has become easier because of the talent passport, and, whilst the cost of living, including housing, is higher in France, non-EU retirees don't need such a high income to move to France as they do to move to Spain. I also don't think for one minute that people here in France hold Americans responsible for the state of US politics.
> 
> And I suspect there are more Americans in France than in Spain.
> 
> Why anyone would think that because it might be difficult for Americans to move to Denmark would mean that it is difficult for Americans to move elsewhere in the EU is beyond me, given that immigration matters relating to third country citizens is a sovereign right and has nothing to do with the EU.


I don't know either. Good to hear your perspective too and I thank you very much. :thumb:


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

tobyo said:


> I don't know either. Good to hear your perspective too and I thank you very much. :thumb:


I hope you enjoy your future life in Spain 

(If doesn't happen to work out, you could always move to France, where you can still apply for French nationality after just 5 years )


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

anh12 said:


> Have you considered the Costa Blanca? There is a large English speaking community, tons to do to stay busy, it's beautiful, and the climate is wonderful.


I forgot to answer this part....I have wondered about this area as well. I have a fellow blogger friend who is from Murcia and have heard good things about that area. perhaps we'll check it out.

thanks!


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

EverHopeful said:


> I hope you enjoy your future life in Spain
> 
> (If doesn't happen to work out, you could always move to France, where you can still apply for French nationality after just 5 years )


awe thanks! we keep saying that if it doesn't work we could always come back "home". Well, I've had a lot of homes in my life so not sure exactly where that would be anyway! ha! not sure I'd want to live in France. Where in France would you recommend? I speak Spanish fairly well and took 3 semesters of French so I imagine I'd have to brush up on French if I were to live there yes?


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

tobyo said:


> awe thanks! we keep saying that if it doesn't work we could always come back "home". Well, I've had a lot of homes in my life so not sure exactly where that would be anyway! ha! not sure I'd want to live in France. Where in France would you recommend? I speak Spanish fairly well and took 3 semesters of French so I imagine I'd have to brush up on French if I were to live there yes?


Where to live in France depends entirely on what you are looking for. You could always drop into the French forum, take a look around or ask the question. It of course helps to have passable French, but there are lots of expats in France who don't speak it too well and rely on translation apps (there are no gestors in France to help you smooth out administrative issues, but the forum is great for that). Having French origins and nationality, I do tend to prefer that expats in France at least make an effort with French, and most people need B1 level French in order to be naturalised, though B1 is really not advanced French.

I live in Pau https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pau,_Pyrénées-Atlantiques. I chose this area because the climate is particularly mild - and getting warmer. There are lots of Spanish and Portuguese in this area, but there are also lots of Spanish in the PACA - in fact one of my cousins by marriage is amongst them - she lives in the Bouches-du-Rhône, and there are lots of Spanish there, as there are in the area formerly known as the Languedoc-Roussillon (but the weather is better where I live).


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Oh and the tax agreement between France and the US is very favourable for American persons, plus you can join the French health system once you can demonstrate 3 months legal residence (generally 70 per cent reimbursement with top up insurance available via a 'mutuelle' insurance) and if you have US social security or are drawing IRAs and the like you are a pensioner and do not pay for the French health system.

But you want Spain and I always think that people should follow their dreams where possible  

(I have lived and worked in Spain - a very very long time ago - and absolutely loved it, but it has changed a great deal since.)


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

EverHopeful said:


> Oh and the tax agreement between France and the US is very favourable for American persons, plus you can join the French health system once you can demonstrate 3 months legal residence (generally 70 per cent reimbursement with top up insurance available via a 'mutuelle' insurance) and if you have US social security or are drawing IRAs and the like you are a pensioner and do not pay for the French health system.
> 
> But you want Spain and I always think that people should follow their dreams where possible
> 
> (I have lived and worked in Spain - a very very long time ago - and absolutely loved it, but it has changed a great deal since.)


Oh, interesting! especially the part about not paying for health care if we're drawing Social Security (hubby is, I can't for two more years) and we'll definitely be drawing from our retirement money. Are you sure about that?? That seems so foreign to me!! And Spain doesn't have the same sort of thing is what I'm hearing you say, yes?


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

tobyo said:


> Oh, interesting! especially the part about not paying for health care if we're drawing Social Security (hubby is, I can't for two more years) and we'll definitely be drawing from our retirement money. Are you sure about that?? That seems so foreign to me!! And Spain doesn't have the same sort of thing is what I'm hearing you say, yes?


It is definitely the case in France and if you are married I believe it applies to both of you (simply because married couples declare taxes jointly and the agency that claims payment uses your tax declaration to do so). Others here can advise you on the situation in Spain - from what I have read on this forum it's a bit all over the place and very unclear, or perhaps I just haven't been able to get a handle on it.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

For residency/visa for Spain, you need a private health insurance with no co-payment. Policy cost differs between providers, age and where you will be living, but a typical quote is around 160 euro/month for a 65-year old living in Malaga Province.


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

Joppa said:


> For residency/visa for Spain, you need a private health insurance with no co-payment. Policy cost differs between providers, age and where you will be living, but a typical quote is around 160 euro/month for a 65-year old living in Malaga Province.


Thanks!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

tobyo said:


> Greetings again. I'm a long time member and infrequent poster. I thought I would find more posts from Americans wanting to escape to Spain with the recent news of the criminal's acquittal. Alas....I only perused two pages of the main forum.
> 
> I had hoped that we'd be retiring to Malaga this summer/fall. Well, that's not happening for a variety of reasons that I won't bore you with. However, we made a deposit for a trip to Spain this coming September, 5 nights in Malaga, 4 nights in Madrid. Last year we made a similar trip with the idea of checking out a couple of apartments and really thinking seriously "do we really want to do this?" That trip was marred by my injured shoulders and well, it colored everything. Which also affected my ability to gauge whether I really want to make this huge change. Every winter here in the frozen tundra I get that spark again "I need to get out of here!!!" And that has become more profound with what's been happening in my country, the good ol' U.S. of A.
> 
> ...


Welcome back! 

Don't be a stranger now that you've found us again. 

At the moment we're busy here with Brits trying to get over here before the end of the Brexit implementation period - or looking for ways to cheat the 90/180 days from next year. 

From Jan 2021, any Brits wanting to move here will be in the same situation as you...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I would check out Estepona, a coastal city to the west of Malaga. It's big enough to have the full range of facilities, not just a tourist resort/expat colony. It has some very attractive features in the old town, a mile-long botanical garden along the esplanade, and some pretty villages and countryside to visit inland.


Excellent advice!!!

I've lived near to or on the fringes of Estepona for twelve years and I'm very happy here. It's a good place for anyone to live. Friendly, good cultural scene, well looked after town with clean beaches, never that crowded even in the high season. Not much party style night life but many good cafes and restaurants. Equidistant to two airports, Gibraltar and Malaga and easy access to Seville, Granada and other smaller equally attractive towns and villages.

It isn't the case, as Baldi tries to persuade us, that people in cities, towns or tourist areas are less friendly and helpful. I'm sure you find helpful friendly souls in Madrid, Barcelona, any big city. People are people and it works both ways, if you are friendly yourself you'll soon make friends. Village life can be complicated, country people have their share of vices too. I have lived more than half of my life in villages, grew up in one. I lived in London, Muswell Hill, for twelve years and found people very friendly and willing to help when needed.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

tobyo said:


> a woman after my own heart!! Yes, Malaga city is a cool place! However, I'd have to disagree about the tourists. There were plenty last September


Sorry, a rather poor example ot British irony. Of course there are lots of tourists in Málaga city, but if you go to Ronda during the holiday season you'll find it so full of coach parties from the Costa del Sol you can hardly move! That's why I only visit these places in the winter.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Sorry, a rather poor example ot British irony. Of course there are lots of tourists in Málaga city, but if you go to Ronda during the holiday season you'll find it so full of coach parties from the Costa del Sol you can hardly move! That's why I only visit these places in the winter.


Sustainable tourism isnt as big an issue as it should be, imo. I saw a videoclip about the tourist scene in Prague recently. The city iwas already at full capacity twelve years ago when I lived there but it seems that the beautiful city centre now is just one massof packed slowly moving tourists, so much so that locals find it hard to go about their daily business. Then, like Tallin, it has the unfortunate fate of being the stag and hen night venue of choice.

It’s easy to get into the ‘You are a tourist whereas I am a traveller’ snobby mindset and I suppose we were all tourists here before we became immigrants. But it’s easy to kill the goose that lays the golden egg and Prague which once wasa real jewel of central European architecture dating back centuries is now just another rather tacky European city with more tourists than natives.

The very popular Alcalde of Estepona has so far managed to keep a balance between tourism - from which the town lives- and preserving it as first and foremost a place to live. The majority of summer visitors seem to be Spanish or French, families mainly. It’s abquiet place. The downside is that there seems to be a deliberate policy of attracting the better-off kind of clientele. Whilst there isan aciute shortage of affordable rented housing- affordable for locals, that is- there’s no shortage of million euro plus villas in development on thevedgs of the town, meant, as a Spanish friend said, for footballers and narcos. Add to this the construction of a Russian Orthodox church and a growing colony of Russians to the east of the town, the plan to build a private university aimedat foreign students and you can see why locals feel left out and aggrieved.

As the aforementioned Alcalde was the most voted for Mayor in the whole of Spain and his PP Party now holds twenty-one of the twenty- five seats on the town Council, it would appear that the dissatisfied are ina minority.


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

xabiaxica said:


> Welcome back!
> 
> Don't be a stranger now that you've found us again.
> 
> ...


Thanks! Yea, Brexit......another sad situation in the world these days.......


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> Excellent advice!!!
> 
> I've lived near to or on the fringes of Estepona for twelve years and I'm very happy here. It's a good place for anyone to live. Friendly, good cultural scene, well looked after town with clean beaches, never that crowded even in the high season. Not much party style night life but many good cafes and restaurants. Equidistant to two airports, Gibraltar and Malaga and easy access to Seville, Granada and other smaller equally attractive towns and villages.
> 
> It isn't the case, as Baldi tries to persuade us, that people in cities, towns or tourist areas are less friendly and helpful. I'm sure you find helpful friendly souls in Madrid, Barcelona, any big city. People are people and it works both ways, if you are friendly yourself you'll soon make friends. Village life can be complicated, country people have their share of vices too. I have lived more than half of my life in villages, grew up in one. I lived in London, Muswell Hill, for twelve years and found people very friendly and willing to help when needed.


Estepona has definitely piqued my interest. Now even more with what you write here.

Oh absolutely we've found friendly souls in all parts of Spain that we've visited. I will say this though about last year's trip: in Malaga I had a hard time trying to speak Spanish. SO many people insisted on speaking English with me!! It was rather annoying  And in Madrid, ah mi Madrid.....siempre lo mismo......they ALWAYS let me speak Spanish!! I'd move to Madrid except I need warmth and sunshine after all these years in the frozen tundra where we had the cloudiest January on record this year......grrrrrrrrrrrr.........

Thanks for your input. It is so greatly appreciated!! :clap2:


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

tobyo said:


> all these years in the frozen tundra where we had the *cloudiest January on record this year*......grrrrrrrrrrrr.........
> 
> Thanks for your input. It is so greatly appreciated!! :clap2:


So that's where all the clouds went. We've had blue skies and sunshine with temps up to 24°


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

tobyo said:


> I will say this though about last year's trip: in Malaga I had a hard time trying to speak Spanish. SO many people insisted on speaking English with me!! It was rather annoying  And in Madrid, ah mi Madrid.....siempre lo mismo......they ALWAYS let me speak Spanish!! I'd move to Madrid except I need warmth and sunshine after all these years in the frozen tundra where we had the cloudiest January on record this year......grrrrrrrrrrrr........:


Yes, in general few people in Madrid offer up their English, more in touristy places like Plaza Mayor. Remember most of them are doing it to be friendly and are happy to be able to practise, not to show off or to make you think your Spanish is bad. Also, sometimes in a busy restaurant or bar it's quicker for them!
BTW we've had a week of tremendous fog here, at least in the Sierra to the north of Madrid. You'd think you were on the Somerset levels rather than northern Madrid


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, in general few people in Madrid offer up their English, more in touristy places like Plaza Mayor. Remember most of them are doing it to be friendly and are happy to be able to practise, not to show off or to make you think your Spanish is bad. Also, sometimes in a busy restaurant or bar it's quicker for them!
> BTW we've had a week of tremendous fog here, at least in the Sierra to the north of Madrid. You'd think you were on the Somerset levels rather than northern Madrid


Up to this week we have had weeks of blue skies and lovely sunshine and temps up to the low-mid 20s. It has been so nice that we have been using the solar panel for our hot water - first time ever, this early in the year. This week is a little cooler with mixed cloud on Sunday and Monday, today we have a veil of high cloud keeping temperatures down a bit at 17°. The Sierra Nevada is virtually devoid of snow.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> Up to this week we have had weeks of blue skies and lovely sunshine and temps up to the low-mid 20s. It has been so nice that we have been using the solar panel for our hot water - first time ever, this early in the year. This week is a little cooler with mixed cloud on Sunday and Monday, today we have a veil of high cloud keeping temperatures down a bit at 17°. The Sierra Nevada is virtually devoid of snow.


 And surely that's not particularly good news... If it's hot enough now, I dread to think what it'll be like in the summer.
We had snow on the mountains here before Christmas, all gone now, little rain either, where's the water we need to get through the summer going to come from?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> And surely that's not particularly good news... If it's hot enough now, I dread to think what it'll be like in the summer.
> We had snow on the mountains here before Christmas, all gone now, little rain either, where's the water we need to get through the summer going to come from?


I'm not sure warm winter spells mean that the following summer is more likely to be hotter. Last year here we had a very mild winter but a cooler than average summer, because the prevailing winds came from the Atlantic rather than from Africa.

The only thing that's certain is that when it comes to the climate, there is no normal any more ...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> I'm not sure warm winter spells mean that the following summer is more likely to be hotter. Last year here we had a very mild winter but a cooler than average summer, because the prevailing winds came from the Atlantic rather than from Africa.
> 
> The only thing that's certain is that when it comes to the climate, there is no normal any more ...


 No, you're right and no there is no "normal" anymore. If people ask what clothes to bring I tell them to look the week they are coming and then to always bring a full range, fleece, Tshirt, socks, sandals ....
A few years ago my sister came in... can't remember, March I think. We had quite a snowfall the day after they arrived and at the end of the week they were sitting out (south facing it's true) in shorts and sandals. True story folks!!!!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> No, you're right and no there is no "normal" anymore. If people ask what clothes to bring I tell them to look the week they are coming and then to always bring a full range, fleece, Tshirt, socks, sandals ....
> A few years ago my sister came in... can't remember, March I think. We had quite a snowfall the day after they arrived and at the end of the week they were sitting out (south facing it's true) in shorts and sandals. True story folks!!!!


One can never predict what it will be like. I recall when I was in the Met Office January 26th 1958 I was on early shift with a 5.30am start. I had to walk in because with snow 16 inches deep, I couldn't ride my bike and it would have been dangerous with telephone wires drooping to about 3 ft above the snow and with no street lights (countryside,) I could have hanged myself. By 1pm when I was finishing my shift the temperature was 61°F (16°C) the sun was shining and the snow melting fast.


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## Pinot (Jul 17, 2016)

Alcalaina said:


> I would check out Estepona, a coastal city to the west of Malaga. It's big enough to have the full range of facilities, not just a tourist resort/expat colony. It has some very attractive features in the old town, a mile-long botanical garden along the esplanade, and some pretty villages and countryside to visit inland.


I was just about to post about Estepona but you beat me to it. I toured all the cities and towns along the Malaga coastal area during three weeks this fall and Estepona checked all the boxes.


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, in general few people in Madrid offer up their English, more in touristy places like Plaza Mayor. Remember most of them are doing it to be friendly and are happy to be able to practise, not to show off or to make you think your Spanish is bad. Also, sometimes in a busy restaurant or bar it's quicker for them!
> BTW we've had a week of tremendous fog here, at least in the Sierra to the north of Madrid. You'd think you were on the Somerset levels rather than northern Madrid


yep, know that. I actually get compliments about my Spanish. It's me who thinks my Spanish is bad, ha!!


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## Randy&Kathy (Feb 11, 2019)

My wife and I are actually planning to in the summer or fall of 2021 after I retire. We have the benefit that she will have her Greek citizenship in a few months and is self employed freelance writer. 

We travel to Spain frequently. On our last trip we met with a lawyer that was recommended on this forum. We really liked him, he was very helpful and we will continue to work with him.

As for attitudes about Americans, we have found people throughout Europe like Americans, like America, they just can't stand, with good reason, our government. We used to say we were Canadian when asked, but don't worry about it anymore. Acknowledging our opinion about the current regime is seldom a topic of conversation and then only in passing.

I hope you move forward on your dream.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Randy&Kathy said:


> As for attitudes about Americans, we have found people throughout Europe like Americans, like America, they just can't stand, with good reason, our government. We used to say we were Canadian when asked, but don't worry about it anymore. Acknowledging our opinion about the current regime is seldom a topic of conversation and then only in passing.


It's a shame when people prejudge other nationalities based on stereotypes. There are some Americans (and Brits, and Germans ...) who seem very demanding and intolerant of Spain's slower pace of life, and talk too loudly, but the ones who find their way to my little corner of Spain are really nice and appreciative of our cultural differences. 

I'd never judge an individual by their government. (If I did I'd have no British friends...) I've never met a Trump supporter face to face, but we had one on here a while back. Very entertaining for a while, then most of us blocked him.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Randy&Kathy said:


> My wife and I are actually planning to in the summer or fall of 2021 after I retire. We have the benefit that she will have her Greek citizenship in a few months and is self employed freelance writer.
> 
> We travel to Spain frequently. On our last trip we met with a lawyer that was recommended on this forum. We really liked him, he was very helpful and we will continue to work with him.
> 
> ...


That made me smile, not heard of anyone doing that before. Seen many expats saying they are ashamed to be British so you will be in good company.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

It was a common custom a while back for US backpackers to sew on Canadian flag to counter the negativity of being associated with US government, 'ugly American' etc.


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

Randy&Kathy said:


> My wife and I are actually planning to in the summer or fall of 2021 after I retire. We have the benefit that she will have her Greek citizenship in a few months and is self employed freelance writer.
> 
> We travel to Spain frequently. On our last trip we met with a lawyer that was recommended on this forum. We really liked him, he was very helpful and we will continue to work with him.
> 
> ...


Oh hey, howdy neighbor! ha, you're not anywhere close to me but heck, another American wanting to move to Spain! Love it!!! and how nice that your wife is a freelance writer. That's another dream of mine. Had hoped to work on that right now. Alas, injured shoulders, a horrible boss and now looking for another job to get away from said horrible boss and well, the writing dream is still just a dream.....One day though!!

So, you have a lawyer to buy property then? Just curious. I had a recommendation from a Spanish friend but I'm not sure what I'd need a lawyer for. Oh, maybe help with a rental lease? Would you care to share the name with me in case I need one? Feel free to PM me.

I remember people saying they were Canadian while abroad when dubya was president. I'm glad to hear your perspective too.

A ver lo que pasa......thanks for your input. I really appreciate it!!


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> It's a shame when people prejudge other nationalities based on stereotypes. There are some Americans (and Brits, and Germans ...) who seem very demanding and intolerant of Spain's slower pace of life, and talk too loudly, but the ones who find their way to my little corner of Spain are really nice and appreciative of our cultural differences.
> 
> I'd never judge an individual by their government. (If I did I'd have no British friends...) I've never met a Trump supporter face to face, but we had one on here a while back. Very entertaining for a while, then most of us blocked him.


I remember him/her!! He/she left a very unsavory comment on my blog. Blech.


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

Joppa said:


> It was a common custom a while back for US backpackers to sew on Canadian flag to counter the negativity of being associated with US government, 'ugly American' etc.


probably during the dubya years......2000 to 2008. we thought that was awful, and it sure was! but NOTHING like it is now!!! I hope America survives the dictator 

Heck, I remember while I was a student in Madrid 1980-81 hearing "yanqui go home". Not much, but I do remember it. But overall I remember the Spanish being kind and generous. And they still are. It's one big reason I keep going back.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Joppa said:


> It was a common custom a while back for US backpackers to sew on Canadian flag to counter the negativity of being associated with US government, 'ugly American' etc.


With Trump as POTUS and 'He may be President but not in my name' on placards & t-shirts at many
demonstrations across the USA, the custom continues to this day.


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## renepdx (Jan 1, 2020)

Hello Toby,

We are also Americans thinking about retiring to Spain in the next couple of years (depending on the results of November's election - if the orange menace is re-elected, we are definitely out). My sister recently moved to the Alicante area, so we are going to look there first - planning a trip in September for a couple of weeks. My husband has recently obtained Luxembourg citizenship so we can move to Spain as an EU citizen + the non-EU spouse. Lots to think about! 

Thanks to all who contribute on this forum. It's very helpful!


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

renepdx said:


> Hello Toby,
> 
> We are also Americans thinking about retiring to Spain in the next couple of years (depending on the results of November's election - *if the orange menace is re-elected, we are definitely out*). My sister recently moved to the Alicante area, so we are going to look there first - planning a trip in September for a couple of weeks. My husband has recently obtained Luxembourg citizenship so we can move to Spain as an EU citizen + the non-EU spouse. Lots to think about!
> 
> Thanks to all who contribute on this forum. It's very helpful!


Have Trump and Brexit Britain started a trend amongst their Expat communities abroad but
no doubt particularly for those British and American Expats living in mainland Europe; that they
would rather adopt citizenship of their new host country, rather than remain citizens of the
UK or the United States ?

It would be interesting to see the statistics on this to see whether there really has been
a surge for Brits going for Irish Passports ( where they can prove Irish backgrounds ) or
taking citizenship of their new adopted country in the EU & the same stats for Americans
changing citizenship since Trump was elected as President of the United States.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Williams2 said:


> Have Trump and Brexit Britain started a trend amongst their Expat communities abroad but
> no doubt particularly for those British and American Expats living in mainland Europe; that they
> would rather adopt citizenship of their new host country, rather than remain citizens of the
> UK or the United States ?
> ...


There are always the snowflakes who are going to throw their toys out of the pram if they don’t get their way. Remember the saying in UK “will the last person turn out the lights”:lol: all those celebs who were going to leave America after Trump victory and never did, now a rash on here wanting to move to Europe. Can’t see the point myself, not as if the rest of the world has exemplary Political systems. Different issue if already settled in another country, sensible to take citizenship but to pack up and leave cos you don’t like the Leader

Celebrities who never left. (Why do these people think anyone would care if they did!)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/22/move-to-canada-celebrities-donald-trump


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Williams2 said:


> Have Trump and Brexit Britain started a trend amongst their Expat communities abroad but
> no doubt particularly for those British and American Expats living in mainland Europe; that they
> would rather adopt citizenship of their new host country, rather than remain citizens of the
> UK or the United States ?
> ...


I think that Americans who have moved to the EU have always been more inclined to take citizenship than Brits - for many reasons, not just freedom of movement. At least on the France Forum I haven't noticed an increase in Americans doing so since Trump was elected, which is hardly surprising given they remain US citizens and living abroad does not get them out of paying US taxes. 

I don't know what statistics you would find, given that France collects statistics on country of birth rather than nationality to avoid discrimination.


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

renepdx said:


> Hello Toby,
> 
> We are also Americans thinking about retiring to Spain in the next couple of years (depending on the results of November's election - if the orange menace is re-elected, we are definitely out). My sister recently moved to the Alicante area, so we are going to look there first - planning a trip in September for a couple of weeks. My husband has recently obtained Luxembourg citizenship so we can move to Spain as an EU citizen + the non-EU spouse. Lots to think about!
> 
> Thanks to all who contribute on this forum. It's very helpful!


oh yea, I hear you about the orange menace! for sure! and I felt that way in 2016, alas, too young to retire(and not enough money yet). Well I still am but hubby is finally retired and our hope was always 2020. But "stuff" happened that got in the way so now we're hoping for 2021. We're also going to be there in September. How lucky for your husband to get EU citizenship! 

for sure, lots to think about. I woke up thinking about moving our cat.....I know it can be done as I have a friend that moved to Belgium with two cats. yea.....lots to think about. Good luck to you!!


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

Williams2 said:


> Have Trump and Brexit Britain started a trend amongst their Expat communities abroad but
> no doubt particularly for those British and American Expats living in mainland Europe; that they
> would rather adopt citizenship of their new host country, rather than remain citizens of the
> UK or the United States ?
> ...


It would be interesting, yep. I know of at least one that went to Belgium. However, I'm not so sure he's given up citizenship, nor would I.


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

Isobella said:


> There are always the snowflakes who are going to throw their toys out of the pram if they don’t get their way. Remember the saying in UK “will the last person turn out the lights”:lol: all those celebs who were going to leave America after Trump victory and never did, now a rash on here wanting to move to Europe. Can’t see the point myself, not as if the rest of the world has exemplary Political systems. Different issue if already settled in another country, sensible to take citizenship but to pack up and leave cos you don’t like the Leader
> 
> Celebrities who never left. (Why do these people think anyone would care if they did!)
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/22/move-to-canada-celebrities-donald-trump


for me personally, I've had this dream since 2011. It was just intensified with the 2016 election. It was more "I'd rather be anywhere else but here in the U.S." And now, 3 1/2 years later, it's more the weather and my physical ailments that are causing me to rethink. My body can no longer withstand this awful cold weather we get here in the frozen tundra. Hubby wants to check out Puerto Rico. We've never been there but since it's part of the U.S. (ahem) he could have Medicare insurance (ahem again...if the chump is reelected there may not be Medicare any more). So, PR would not be desirable if the chump is reelected for look at how he treats those citizens in our own country!! We'd physically BE in the U.S. but ostracized and forgotten by the so-called president. Uh, no thanks!!


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

tobyo said:


> for me personally, I've had this dream since 2011. It was just intensified with the 2016 election. It was more "I'd rather be anywhere else but here in the U.S." And now, 3 1/2 years later, it's more the weather and my physical ailments that are causing me to rethink. My body can no longer withstand this awful cold weather we get here in the frozen tundra. Hubby wants to check out Puerto Rico. We've never been there but since it's part of the U.S. (ahem) he could have Medicare insurance (ahem again...if the chump is reelected there may not be Medicare any more). So, PR would not be desirable if the chump is reelected for look at how he treats those citizens in our own country!! We'd physically BE in the U.S. but ostracized and forgotten by the so-called president. Uh, no thanks!!


We have stayed in Puerto Rico, it’s lovely but is does seem to have many political/ social problems. They are a noisy lot though, 2 weeks of loud Latino music got me down
Trump may not be around much longer although alternative not much better but as Obama said about leaving I am first an American and love my country.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

tobyo said:


> for me personally, I've had this dream since 2011. It was just intensified with the 2016 election. It was more "I'd rather be anywhere else but here in the U.S." And now, 3 1/2 years later, it's more the weather and my physical ailments that are causing me to rethink. My body can no longer withstand this awful cold weather we get here in the frozen tundra. Hubby wants to check out Puerto Rico. We've never been there but since it's part of the U.S. (ahem) he could have Medicare insurance (ahem again...if the chump is reelected there may not be Medicare any more). So, PR would not be desirable if the chump is reelected for look at how he treats those citizens in our own country!! We'd physically BE in the U.S. but ostracized and forgotten by the so-called president. Uh, no thanks!!


PR also gets hurricanes. I saw the effects of Hugo in 1989 (with global warming they have got much worse.) San Juan, PR was a stopping point on the flights I was on, going to and from Colombia. On the way there , everything was normal, peaceful, etc. at 3.30am. On the way back (post Hugo) all the trees (what was left of them - just thick sticks) were laying over at 45° at best, most were just flattened. A guy boarding at San Juan said , if you are looking for the buildings, don't bother - they've all been blown away.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

EverHopeful said:


> I think that Americans who have moved to the EU have always been more inclined to take citizenship than Brits - for many reasons, not just freedom of movement. At least on the France Forum I haven't noticed an increase in Americans doing so since Trump was elected, which is hardly surprising given they remain US citizens and living abroad does not get them out of paying US taxes.
> 
> I don't know what statistics you would find, given that France collects statistics on country of birth rather than nationality to avoid discrimination.


I saw some stats in the news last week of UK citizens who had got Irish citizenship/passports but can’t remember where. Would think many Americans would qualify too. 
I wonder if I could get a Polish one as Grandmother was Polish but her having got British citizenship could rule it out ha ha. Grandson was born in Spain, I asked him if he had thought of getting a Spanish passport, he said what would be the point just to pop over to Ibiza for a week.


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## renepdx (Jan 1, 2020)

Isobella said: There are always the snowflakes who are going to throw their toys out of the pram if they don’t get their way. Remember the saying in UK “will the last person turn out the lights”:lol: all those celebs who were going to leave America after Trump victory and never did, now a rash on here wanting to move to Europe. Can’t see the point myself, not as if the rest of the world has exemplary Political systems. Different issue if already settled in another country, sensible to take citizenship but to pack up and leave cos you don’t like the Leader:confused

We are not giving up our citizenship, but if we have the means and ability to live elsewhere for a while, why not? That’s not being a snowflake or throwing a tantrum, it’s making an informed choice.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Isobella said:


> Grandson was born in Spain, I asked him if he had thought of getting a Spanish passport, he said what would be the point just to pop over to Ibiza for a week.


As far as I know if your parents aren't Spanish and you are born in Spain you don't have rights to Spanish nationality, and especially if you then don't live in Spain


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

renepdx said:


> Isobella said: There are always the snowflakes who are going to throw their toys out of the pram if they don’t get their way. Remember the saying in UK “will the last person turn out the lights”:lol: all those celebs who were going to leave America after Trump victory and never did, now a rash on here wanting to move to Europe. Can’t see the point myself, not as if the rest of the world has exemplary Political systems. Different issue if already settled in another country, sensible to take citizenship but to pack up and leave cos you don’t like the Leader:confused
> 
> We are not giving up our citizenship, but if we have the means and ability to live elsewhere for a while, why not? That’s not being a snowflake or throwing a tantrum, it’s making an informed choice.


Just click on "reply with quote " to quote the person you are replying to


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> As far as I know if your parents aren't Spanish and you are born in Spain you don't have rights to Spanish nationality, and especially if you then don't live in Spain


Interesting fortunate he has no desire to do so strange as I could, Spanish Grandfather. Very complex.


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