# question to the european expats living in the US



## kirikara (Jan 21, 2009)

Hi,
I am facing a big career move and I am very nervous about it.
I have been in the US for 4.5 years, stable in one city with the same company for 3.5 years.
I am been offered a good opportunity in that company that could be a really big stepping stone for me.
However, it comes with more hours, I d lose some of my vacation time (from 4 to 2 weeks) and the salary increase is not much.
The job sounds great but I am freaking out about the idea of going back to 2 weeks vacation.


My question for you: how do you guys cope with the vacation time in the US?
I have already pretty much taken all my days for the year if I go back to 2 weeks, and I feel completely suffocated at the idea of being stuck here with absolutely no way to visit family back home if I want to (obviously in an emergency case they d let me go) or simply take a 3 day weekend to go somewhere.
It is not that I don't want to work it is the concept of not being able to take time off if I want to or need to . Just the idea makes me feel completely panicked.

I am starting to worry about my ability to balance work and life here..


----------



## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

kirikara said:


> I have already pretty much taken all my days for the year if I go back to 2 weeks, and I feel completely suffocated at the idea of being stuck here with absolutely no way to visit family back home if I want to (obviously in an emergency case they d let me go) or simply take a 3 day weekend to go somewhere.


First of all, make sure you understand how vacation time works in the US. The fact that you've already taken vacation this year for your current employer means nothing to your potential employer. Vacation time in the US is earned as you work - and it's likely that you will be entitled to no vacation at all until you have worked for the new employer for at least 6 months or a year.

There is no legal requirement for an employer to give you any vacation time at all, so each employer has their own policies for how much you can take and when (and if) you can take it at all. In hard economic times, some employers will require workers to take one or two days of accrued vacation, and it is not at all uncommon to find people who have rolled over their two weeks because they have not been able to "conveniently" (i.e. for the employer) take what vacation time they have accrued.

Unfortunately, you've stumbled onto the down side of Life in America. The European approach to vacation time was a real mindbender for me when I first got over here - but now that I work with my French husband in a company we own and run (and are the only employees for) I'm back to little or no vacation time in a year. When you're raised with that, it seems "normal." 
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

You need to set your priorities before negotiating. What is more important to you - a potential step in the right direction or a three-day week end? You should be familiar with the US concept of company first by now:>) Your post sounds pretty whiny which will get you nowhere. Come up with some points why you are perfect for the new job and why you deserve a carrot immediately. This is called negotiating. Good luck!

Depending on your legal status - has your visa been discussed? 

US companies have standard vacation policies as it is not regulated by law. Depending on a union or non-union environment it can be the infamous two work weeks plus certain holidays; it can be tied to a title such as VP two weeks, SVP three weeks; it can be earned in increments or given as a unit; it can be negotiated (make sure the employment contract spell ... and years thereafter ... out). 

My husband does not work on Fridays during deer season and has 45 paid working days annually as vacation. I have not worked Fridays in years and vacation has been a verbal arrangement between my immediate manager and me. 

Bev - vacation time roll overs are almost extinct. Some companies allow accumulation of PTO (paid time off which uses vacation/sick/personal time under one denominator) up to generally 30 days.


----------



## kirikara (Jan 21, 2009)

ok thanks guys, but I think there was a misunderstanding.

I am not changing company, I am changing manager and I am already in the US and already have negotiatied what little I could. I should have been more clear.

I am getting a new job in the same company, I had an agreement with my previous two manager which the new manager refuses to agree to.
I planned this year's vacation thinking I had 4 weeks, I now will be switching to 2, meaning that I won't be able to leave for a while until I have time accrued.
the extra 2 weeks i currently have was unpaid and that is what I asked for and did not get, what was giving me some flexibility, although I never took them all.

I am very acquainted with how it works in the US, I am at a point where I had worked something out to find a balance and feel like I could still see my family while living thousands of miles away. I am scared of the change.I am not sure my career counts that much that I would be ready to give up the little time I have to see my family.
I am very glad to get a good opportunity but it makes me wonder if this is going to keep happening. the higher I will get the more difficult it will be to make it work.

And then finally, yes I sound whiny I know that and that is the issue, It is a cultural difference that is difficult to understand. To anyone here, I sound like a lazy person that just wants time off. that is not the case, I work hard, and I do well at work. It is exactly what I am fighting against, the concept that if you want a little more time off it does not mean that you are a slacker. 
That is especially why I was asking for advice from other europeans on how they make it work, what was their experience, did they have time where they just had to go with it and got it better later, do they sometime work from afar...etc..

I just have not been raised with the concept of two weeks vacation and my move here was not based on making the American Dream with the mansion and the big screen tvs, it was based on falling in love with another human being and making it work. To me that is a major difference.
also I have double citizenship,so no visa issues.

thanks!


----------



## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

Do not feel alone. Culture shock when it comes to Corporate America is almost a given. Yes, generally the higher you work your way up the more time you will spend just to stay there. It is a rat race but it is the same all over. There are days I keep our cell phones in the freezer. This way I can claim with clear conscience that I did not hear it ringing:>)

Can you offer to meet in the middle - one extra week for you, one extra week for the new manager? Be careful how far you push him. Talk to him in private, butter him with how much you appreciate his interest, how you will sink your teeth into the new opportunity ...


----------



## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

kirikara said:


> I am not changing company, I am changing manager and I am already in the US and already have negotiatied what little I could. I should have been more clear.


Saw that in your original post and thought it was kind of odd. But, you've come back with the explanation.

If you can't negotiate your way around or through this, you're probably going to have to suck it up and decide what's more important to you, your work-life balance or your "career." Frankly, staying within the same company, you could find yourself at a severe disadvantage for not taking a "better" job when it is offered, particularly if the reason your turn down the position is based on the change in holiday arrangements.

You're right in that it's a huge cultural difference - due in large part to the lack of any legal mandate for vacation time in the US. Goes back to the old notion of "living to work" vs. "working to live." Having gone the other direction, I know I took plenty of flak from the US headquarters people about trying to reach fairly high mucky mucks in the European operations and being told "he's on vacation and will be back at the end of the month." Did not go down well with the US bosses, most of whom make a point of being "available" whenever they aren't actually onsite.

The only Europeans I know of who were able to negotiate extra holiday time (paid or not) in the US were those on a limited term contract (say, 2 or 3 years) who had full expat benefits (usually including a "home visit" once a year for the whole family) and were expecting to return home after their tour. Obviously this depends on your level as well as the industry you're in. But as a dual national working as a "regular employee" you have very little negotiating power unless you're the only possible candidate for the new job (in which case, you should probably hold them up for more money).

I'd also disagree slightly with twosteps comments about employment contracts - in my experience, they are rare in the US except for high level executives (usually those poached from other companies). Generally, you're stuck with whatever terms and policies are in the employee manual - and unpaid leave time is always subject to the approval of your manager.
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## kirikara (Jan 21, 2009)

thanks guys!
Agreed with the fact that I can't turn down an internal opportunity (unless I want to make my life a living hell ..) 
I will suck it up for now and we will see what happens. that kind of news always messes with me and my ability to stay here.. It is like all over again I am considering yet again going back to Europe. (not happening though, just considering)
It is not really healthy but I at least I am aware of it 

Bev agreed on the contract.We have no contracts, employment is at will from both parties and everything is according to company policies.
oh.. and I am not the only candidate, just the one they chose, and they made that very clear during "negotiation"  I am probably best for the job but clearly not the only one that could perform well.
I will figure something out to make it work psychologically.
I have already thought about going home for Xmas just for the night. If that is what needs to happen i can do that. I have not seen my sis for 2 years i can't miss this.
and then if this is really impossible, I will need to move on and at least I will have that on my resume. It will make me even more motivate to jump the gun and go back to Europe which I have been equally scared on doing not having worked there ever.Cant always be scared, heh?
it is just that life is so short. I always have that in the back of my mind.


----------



## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

@@@Kiri - the rat race is on in Europe as well. You get the vacation but you will not take it once your are in management or over 40. :>( Why does your sister not visit you? Why not have the clan spend Christmas in the US. Beware - we did it 2009. 

@@@Bev - I have seen contracts and non-competes for part time flunkies. It all depends on industry and demand. Club memberships, vacations, relocation, ... the good ol' packages for US employees are still around but noone flaunts them. Actually even the US Government offers such perks. I know nothing about Kiri's professional life so I cannot offer specific pointers.


----------



## frenchie (Dec 12, 2008)

Frenchie to Frenchie, let me give you my perspective.

I feel for you. I have been here for years and yet, I am going crazy for the little vacation that I get. It has gotten to a point where I have been planning my return to France for a few years. 
A promotion is always good to have but remember, you work to live not the other way around. Do what makes you happy. Life is too short! I have turned down a huge promotion because it meant lots of OT and next to nothing in vacation time. The extra money was appealing but at the end of the day, I wanted to spend time with my hubby and live my life. 

Good luck to you, whichever decision you chose.


----------



## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

@@@Frenchie
We worked our way through bills and taxes and found out it was beneficial for us to have me leave the rat race (right when I got where I wanted to be - grrr) and work PT.
Visiting home has turned into a chore. My folks have a nice penthouse with roof garden, are in town but above it, financially stable - the works. I cannot take the confinement, the agressive non-natives, the disappearance of lets call it better boutiques and restaurants, the decline of public safety and particularly care for national treasures/museums. Lack of parking:>)


----------



## kirikara (Jan 21, 2009)

well noted guys.
For now I will take the promotion. Not taking it would be career suicide.
But frenchie your message really hit home and the fact that you still struggle after many years definitely speak to me.

As far as xmas here, well money is the main issue. One of my sis has visited me (we met in nyc) but the other one has 2 young kids. Having the entire family come over for Xmas is not really something they would go for I think, given the high cost of that. 
But my parents might come next year. And I have thought about paying part of the ticket to on of my best friend so I would get to see her.(she does not have a stable job)
As much as the situation has not changed talking it through with you guys helped, so thanks!
I am off for my massage at the spa  that should help too..
and.. breathe!


----------



## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

kirikara said:


> well noted guys.
> For now I will take the promotion. Not taking it would be career suicide.
> But frenchie your message really hit home and the fact that you still struggle after many years definitely speak to me.
> 
> ...


Skip the massage and put it into the Christmas pot:>)
You are not alone. Strangely my Better Half misses Europe. He is absolutely bilingual and has never met a stranger:>)
The kids can stay with grandma and the sister can get away for a week. Win win situation. Why not skip presents? Who likes ill fitting meriono sweaters anyway? Call it a present for everybody and have the tribe get cattle class tickets for a week of US fun, food and family. FYI - we cleaned house, opened a bottle of real champagne and called it Christmas AFTER they left. The first time in 28 years my parents, siblings, outlaws, inlaws met at the same time. Self inflicted insanity but who cares.


----------



## frenchie (Dec 12, 2008)

twostep said:


> @@@Frenchie
> We worked our way through bills and taxes and found out it was beneficial for us to have me leave the rat race (right when I got where I wanted to be - grrr) and work PT.
> Visiting home has turned into a chore. My folks have a nice penthouse with roof garden, are in town but above it, financially stable - the works. I cannot take the confinement, the agressive non-natives, the disappearance of lets call it better boutiques and restaurants, the decline of public safety and particularly care for national treasures/museums. Lack of parking:>)


lol Twostep. My parents (still living in France) are saying the exact same thing about France. That and too much taxes and socialism. 
I dunno, I wish I could work part time but need the health insurance in this country. 

How long have you been in the US, twostep? (if this is not an indiscreet question)


----------



## frenchie (Dec 12, 2008)

kirikara said:


> well noted guys.
> For now I will take the promotion. Not taking it would be career suicide.
> But frenchie your message really hit home and the fact that you still struggle after many years definitely speak to me.
> 
> ...


Try some physical activities (hiking, biking...anything that strikes your fancy). The release of endorphins is great on the overall mood.

Things will work themselves out, Kirikara. In time, you will figure out what you want and what suits you. No rush, do it the french way (snail pace). 

Hope the massage helped a bit!  I hope your family and friends can visit you sometimes soon. It seems you need a breath of "french" air.


----------



## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

frenchie said:


> lol Twostep. My parents (still living in France) are saying the exact same thing about France. That and too much taxes and socialism.
> I dunno, I wish I could work part time but need the health insurance in this country.
> 
> How long have you been in the US, twostep? (if this is not an indiscreet question)


Have you looked into 32 hr weeks? Most companies consider this fulltime for benefits purposes.

Back and forth for about 25 years.


----------



## frenchie (Dec 12, 2008)

twostep said:


> Have you looked into 32 hr weeks? Most companies consider this fulltime for benefits purposes.
> 
> Back and forth for about 25 years.


Really? I work for the State and even though there is some flexibility about scheduling, we still have to work 40 hours. Not that anybody is checking on us but still. 32 hours would be very nice.


----------



## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

frenchie said:


> Really? I work for the State and even though there is some flexibility about scheduling, we still have to work 40 hours. Not that anybody is checking on us but still. 32 hours would be very nice.


Can you switch from 5/8 to 4/10?


----------



## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

twostep said:


> Can you switch from 5/8 to 4/10?


In lots of businesses these days, if you're working as a salaried employee (i.e. exempt and not subject to punching a time clock) you're assumed to be available "as long as it takes" which means 40 hours is considered a minimum. If the new boss isn't willing to allow an extra two weeks without pay, I'd be very careful about asking to reduce your working hours - or you could find them reduced to none at all.
Cheers,
Bev


----------



## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

Bevdeforges said:


> In lots of businesses these days, if you're working as a salaried employee (i.e. exempt and not subject to punching a time clock) you're assumed to be available "as long as it takes" which means 40 hours is considered a minimum. If the new boss isn't willing to allow an extra two weeks without pay, I'd be very careful about asking to reduce your working hours - or you could find them reduced to none at all.
> Cheers,
> Bev


Frenchie works for a State which means union environment even for non-union employees - they clock by the minute. 4/10 or 32 or 40 with mandatory furlogh is getting more and more popular with Fed/State jobs. Easier on the eyes than FTE reduction. But it depends on her actual responsibilities and her supervisors.


----------



## frenchie (Dec 12, 2008)

twostep said:


> Frenchie works for a State which means union environment even for non-union employees - they clock by the minute. 4/10 or 32 or 40 with mandatory furlogh is getting more and more popular with Fed/State jobs. Easier on the eyes than FTE reduction. But it depends on her actual responsibilities and her supervisors.


I have the freedom to do a flex schedule but I am required to do 40 hours. Furlougs hasn't affected me(yet) as I have a revenue generating position. But who knows?
I'd love to only do 42 hours.  Oh and we don't clock in, even though I am overtime eligible.

Thanks though for suggesting 32 hours! Maybe if the furloughs happens, we will do that.


----------



## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

frenchie said:


> I have the freedom to do a flex schedule but I am required to do 40 hours. Furlougs hasn't affected me(yet) as I have a revenue generating position. But who knows?
> I'd love to only do 42 hours.  Oh and we don't clock in, even though I am overtime eligible.
> 
> Thanks though for suggesting 32 hours! Maybe if the furloughs happens, we will do that.


Time keeping can be done in a number of ways. Actually clocking in helps employees. Oh yes, I abhore it. Left a good banking job when I was asked to clock in. Keep your ear open. I have seen crazy changes lately.


----------



## kirikara (Jan 21, 2009)

just thought I would drop by and give an update.. a year later 
I indeed took the job. it was a great opportunity, I am still glad I did. I worked my a** off and after 6 months, asked for a raise, that i got. Time off is a major issue (took 4 days off this year) , stress too. The job is more of a 24/7 kind of job. I am going crazy, lost it a bit stress-wise a couple month ago, and got some bad health issues due to stress. Mind you I combine that job with 2 small biz...
THis experience definitely set the record straight. My boss loves me, just had my review, clearly could go pretty far with patience and hard work. Salary is better but not good, not worth it and not worth my health.
We are officially moving at the end of the year... I officially chose to be poor and healthi-er.


----------



## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

kirikara said:


> just thought I would drop by and give an update.. a year later
> I indeed took the job. it was a great opportunity, I am still glad I did. I worked my a** off and after 6 months, asked for a raise, that i got. Time off is a major issue (took 4 days off this year) , stress too. The job is more of a 24/7 kind of job. I am going crazy, lost it a bit stress-wise a couple month ago, and got some bad health issues due to stress. Mind you I combine that job with 2 small biz...
> THis experience definitely set the record straight. My boss loves me, just had my review, clearly could go pretty far with patience and hard work. Salary is better but not good, not worth it and not worth my health.
> We are officially moving at the end of the year... I officially chose to be poor and healthi-er.


What do you consider the source of your stress?


----------



## kirikara (Jan 21, 2009)

my stress comes from overwork/burn out. I work in a tiny department supporting a lot of people/things. It is just me, and the amount of work demanded of me is ungodly. I am at the back of all deadlines, so everything gets delayed but I still have to meet with the original deadlines, resulting on working very late work nights at home etc.. My boss is aware of the issue, but he is not able to hire anyone else..My "urgent to do" list is about 3 page long every week, and only gets shorter to get longer again. I was doing 13-15hours days for 3 months straight. This is the kind of rhythm I was able to push through for a few months, but when I realized it really would not slow down much at all, it took its toll on me. Thinking i was handling it ok, I broke down with a bad episode of shingles in my eye. Still dealing with PHN.
I am a stressed person overall,so it is not like moving and going for a different lifestyle will reduce all stress, but I have to find the right balance to deal with it. Current situation is just not it. We are going to focus for 18 months on the small bizs, and see if we can make it work with less dough and more freedom to work (hard) as we wish to.


----------



## Iron Horse (Apr 10, 2008)

kirikara said:


> just thought I would drop by and give an update.. a year later
> I indeed took the job. it was a great opportunity, I am still glad I did. I worked my a** off and after 6 months, asked for a raise, that i got. Time off is a major issue (took 4 days off this year) , stress too. The job is more of a 24/7 kind of job. I am going crazy, lost it a bit stress-wise a couple month ago, and got some bad health issues due to stress. Mind you I combine that job with 2 small biz...
> THis experience definitely set the record straight. My boss loves me, just had my review, clearly could go pretty far with patience and hard work. Salary is better but not good, not worth it and not worth my health.
> We are officially moving at the end of the year... I officially chose to be poor and healthi-er.


I hope things work out better for you. I also want to thank you for helping us here in a huge unseen way. By deciding to walk away you are showing others that the "race to the bottom" isn't worth it. As was mentioned before it is about working to live and not living to work.


----------



## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

kirikara said:


> my stress comes from overwork/burn out. I work in a tiny department supporting a lot of people/things. It is just me, and the amount of work demanded of me is ungodly. I am at the back of all deadlines, so everything gets delayed but I still have to meet with the original deadlines, resulting on working very late work nights at home etc.. My boss is aware of the issue, but he is not able to hire anyone else..My "urgent to do" list is about 3 page long every week, and only gets shorter to get longer again. I was doing 13-15hours days for 3 months straight. This is the kind of rhythm I was able to push through for a few months, but when I realized it really would not slow down much at all, it took its toll on me. Thinking i was handling it ok, I broke down with a bad episode of shingles in my eye. Still dealing with PHN.
> I am a stressed person overall,so it is not like moving and going for a different lifestyle will reduce all stress, but I have to find the right balance to deal with it. Current situation is just not it. We are going to focus for 18 months on the small bizs, and see if we can make it work with less dough and more freedom to work (hard) as we wish to.


Rephrase please - you were or are working a full-time position and three sideline job/businesses? If this is correct - where did your sponsoring employer what he paid for? You had more other things on your mind to focus on the job.


----------



## kirikara (Jan 21, 2009)

Hi two steps, I am having trouble understanding your question, a word might be missing? I don't have a sponsoring employer. I am not here on a green card. I am a dual citizen. My employer did not sponsor anything. As far as the sideline activity, it is more helping with the stress than anything, more of a hobby if you will. I am strictly talking about salaried work here, since it really is the bulk of what I do.
Somehow, it seems that you want to prove a point of some sort. That is fine. I have encountered that a few times, and I am sure I will again. My point is: the rat's race is not worth it for everyone. I don't care enough about status, I don't want a big house, and value time with my family more than feeling great about my advancement, though it sure is fulfilling in some way. It is a choice for sure. I am glad i put the time I put in the job, and would do it again. I do feel that maybe other companies more in line with my way to see things or a different job would not create the same feeling. There are many jobs I have held in that same company that I was fine with. 
This particular one while a big move, was just too much work for 1 person and while I am doing good at the job it is not a good fit. I gave it my whole and only came to this conclusion very recently. I thought about changing back department with a lateral move but I have been there for a while and could use a change. It will be tough cause I do like my team.
As far as your comment on the fact i had more than one thing on my mind, doesn't everyone?


----------

