# San Miguel de Allende alternatives.



## 1happykamper

I lived in San Miguel de Allende for two years. Now.. Serious violence.. Robberies and high cost of living force me to look at other similar quint Mexican towns. Any ideas?


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## GARYJ65

1happykamper said:


> I lived in San Miguel de Allende for two years. Now.. Serious violence.. Robberies and high cost of living force me to look at other similar quint Mexican towns. Any ideas?


Serious violence in San Miguel???
Serious compared to where?
High cost of living, well it all depends on one's income and way of life
Robberies, most probably because San Miguel is a tourist town and tourists attract robbers


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## Hound Dog

Deleted due to errors. I´ll try again later.


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## coondawg

My experience has been that the extranjeros I have met in Mexico have come to Mexico from relatively crime free neighborhoods in other countries. So, when there are murders and/or robberies in their new neighborhood in Mexico, they are alarmed and concerned, as they think everywhere they would live here would be safer than their home country neighborhood. A silly thought, IMO. 

I find also that extranjeros often move into a neighborhood in Mexico that they would NEVER consider living in in their home country (to have the Mexican experience and feel like a real Mexican), and certainly into neighborhoods that the typical Mexicans of the Middle Class would never consider living in either. Just never made a lot of sense to this old Texas boy.


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## Hound Dog

As far as I know, there is no town similar to San Miguel in Mexico which I intend as neither a compliment for nor a disparagement of that burg. Personally, and as one fond of "qaint" colonial architecture, should I decide to leave the Lake Chapala (Ajijic) and Chiapas Highland (San Cristobal De Las Casas) áreas, I would probably choose Oaxaca City. The city is a bit anarchic and the splendid colonial center is expensive with good housing hard to find, but living there would be like living in a museum frequented by somewhat raucous patrons.


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## coondawg

In my experience with extranjeros in Mexico, I find that when they do select a place to live, those who purchase a home also purchase LOTS of security protection against crime and invasion (such walled in lots, razor wire, big time alarm systems, bars for windows and doors-not for aesthetic value, but for protection, security patrol services,etc.) which they never had in their home country neighborhood. Even those who rent seek these security measures, which they never had before. Yet, when there are problems from crime/violence in their neighborhoods, they seem surprised. Seems like a reality disconnect to me. Just sayin'.


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## citlali

We have security in Ajijic we do not in San Cristobal de las Casas. Our neighbors there are our security and watch out for each other. In Ajijic we have a large garden in San Cristobal we have a patio house and have neighbors on all sides who could hear if we asked for help.
It all depends where you live and how you live.


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## Hound Dog

coondawg said:


> In my experience with extranjeros in Mexico, I find that when they do select a place to live, those who purchase a home also purchase LOTS of security protection against crime and invasion (such walled in lots, razor wire, big time alarm systems, bars for windows and doors-not for aesthetic value, but for protection, security patrol services,etc.) which they never had in their home country neighborhood. Even those who rent seek these security measures, which they never had before. Yet, when there are problems from crime/violence in their neighborhoods, they seem surprised. Seems like a reality disconnect to me. Just sayin'.


Well, I must say, *******, that we employ all of those security measures in homes we own in both Ajijic and San Cristóbal, two towns quite distant from one another, plus we usually employ house/dog sitters to protect our assets and feed our mutts in our absence and, over time, we have become quite fond of those high walls, decorative security door and window bars and centrally-monitored alarm systems that sound like the Hounds-of-Hell should intruders venture uninvited upon our properties . We employed no such protective measures in rural Alabama and California where we lived in isolation for a number of years before we retired to Mexico. Rather, we employed the use of the handy .38 pólice revolver and twelve gauge shotgun adjacent to the bed for protection - options not practically available to us in Mexico. In both Alabama and Caliornia, had we simply awaited the arrival of Deputy Dawg after calling for help upon detecting danger from intruders there in the backwoods, we could have just as well kissed our butts goodbye. One must learn to adjust to one's environment and protect one´s ass with the alternatives available in that environment.

It is wise, in my opinion, to live in accordance with local custom when it comes to personal safety and if some neighbor pooh-poohs one´s secuity measures while leaving his/her house vulnerable to intruders, that neighbor will always be welcome to live near my home to povide easy access to local thieves.

Reminds me of that old bear joke about two hunters walking in the woods and encoutering an enraged grizzly bear who procedes to charge them with the intent of ripping them to shreds. As they run for their lives, one hunter stops, stoops down, removes his boots and starts putting on his tennis shoes. The other hunter,looking on in amazement, shouts, "Are you insane? There is no way you can outrun a grizzly bear!". The other hunter replies; " I don´t need to outrun the grizzly, I just need to outrun you."

Hound Dog
Alabamian (Family arrived in mid-1800s a few horse-lengths in front of an armed Georgia posse intent on hanging them from the nearest oak tree - an arrival in Alabama similar to the inglorious arrivals of many immigrants of European descent in those days.)
Alabama Crimson Tide fanatic - 1966. Since shucked off that obsession.
How yew doin'?

Thanks for the idea, *******.


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## RVGRINGO

Welcome back, HD.


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## joaquinx

coondawg said:


> In my experience with extranjeros in Mexico, I find that when they do select a place to live, those who purchase a home also purchase LOTS of security protection against crime and invasion (such walled in lots, razor wire, big time alarm systems, bars for windows and doors-not for aesthetic value, but for protection, security patrol services,etc.)


Somehow this describes a house where Mexicans live.


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## Hound Dog

A small error in my above post too late to correct per fórum rules. The cited bear in the joke "proceeded" to attack the hunters. Keep in mind that while attending the University of Alabama in the early to mid-1960s in pursuit of a degree in business administration (a crip curriculum if there ever was one), I shared many a classroom with the famous Joe Namath - neither of us noted for our intellectual prowess. Actually, Namath had been a student at Maryland before being recruited to Alabama by Bear Bryant and no professor there in Tuscaloosa in his or her right mind was gong to flunk one of Bear's "apes" so I was obviously choosing my elective courses with aplomb.

Back to happy's inquiry regarding alternative towns to San Miguel in which to live, I mentioned Oaxaca City as one of my favorites should I tire of the towns in which I reside at present which is unlikely but here are some of my other favorites I have explored over the last few years which might meet happy's criteria and, at one time were on my finalist list:
San Luis Potosi
Merida
Lago de Bacalar, Quintana Roo
Boca Del Rio, Veracruz
The urban zone stretching from Orizaba to Cordoba, Veracruz
"The Tuxtlas", Veracruz
Bahías de Huatulco, Oaxaca
Among several cities along the Isthmus de Tehuantepecin or near Juchitan, Oaxaca (acquired taste) 

Good luck, happy.


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## coondawg

Hound Dog said:


> Well, I must say, *******, that we employ all of those security measures in homes we own in both Ajijic and San Cristóbal, two towns quite distant from one another, plus we usually employ house/dog sitters to protect our assets and feed our mutts in our absence and, over time, we have become quite fond of those high walls, decorative security door and window bars and centrally-monitored alarm systems that sound like the Hounds-of-Hell should intruders venture uninvited upon our properties . We employed no such protective measures in rural Alabama and California where we lived in isolation for a number of years before we retired to Mexico. Rather, we employed the use of the handy .38 pólice revolver and twelve gauge shotgun adjacent to the bed for protection - options not practically available to us in Mexico. .



Actually, according to my Mexican sources, it is much cheaper to purchase firearm protection for the home than many other types of security measures in Mexico.


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## coondawg

GARYJ65 said:


> Serious violence in San Miguel???
> Serious compared to where?
> High cost of living, well it all depends on one's income and way of life
> Robberies, most probably because San Miguel is a tourist town and tourists attract robbers


Gary, does it sometimes seem to you that many extranjeros leave their common sense in their home country when they come to Mexico?


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## GARYJ65

coondawg said:


> Gary, does it sometimes seem to you that many extranjeros leave their common sense in their home country when they come to Mexico?


I don't think it like that
But many times they expect it to be like wonderland and make huge complaints when they find out it was not just like their dream.

Worst ones are those who then start comparing between Countries


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## GARYJ65

coondawg said:


> Actually, according to my Mexican sources, it is much cheaper to purchase firearm protection for the home than many other types of security measures in Mexico.


Firearms are legal in Mexico, given that you are legal to own one, and most foreigners are not
Also, if you have a break in, you better have firearm training, be at your home, have it near to you and be awake, otherwise, I don't think it will be very useful
In the best case scenario, you don't have to use your firearm and burglars leave, otherwise you had to use it and you better start running, because the burglar's family will come for you and your kin


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## coondawg

GARYJ65 said:


> Worst ones are those who then start comparing between Countries


I'm so glad that you and I and members of this Forum never participate in that.


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## Hound Dog

GARYJ65 said:


> Firearms are legal in Mexico, given that you are legal to own one, and most foreigners are not
> Also, if you have a break in, you better have firearm training, be at your home, have it near to you and be awake, otherwise, I don't think it will be very useful
> In the best case scenario, you don't have to use your firearm and burglars leave, otherwise you had to use it and you better start running, because the burglar's family will come for you and your kin


My thoughts, precisely, Gary.

I am reminded of something I read some time ago which was an article about safety in Mexico City. Some guy was quoted as feeling safe strolling about at night in that citý´s Zona Rosa despite a crime wave at the time because there were so many beat cops walking the streets there. The person with whom this guy was talking responded; "Perhaps so but if you are assaulted on the street there, don´t be surprised if,upon your seeking assistance no cops are to be found and, even if you find one, he will certainly be loath to use his firearm in your defense as, first of all he must pay for the bullets he uses and had better have had good reasons for having used them and, secondly, he doesn´t know you or your assailant who, as far as he knows, may know someone influential who could pull strings and have him fired or worse and on and on. 

As for me; I´d a whole lot rather scare a thief off with walls, bars, concertina wire and loud, centrally monitored and movement sensitive alarm systems triggered outside my bedroom door than have to be awakened in the middle of the night and try to grab a weapon and shoot some thief I don´t know from Adam´s housecat I encounter standing in my bedroom intent on doing me harm. If I manage to kill him, I may have to answer to his extended family intent on revenge or his uncle who is a pólice precinct captain and if I wound him then what?

I will say this about that obscenely loud alarm system. I've only used it once in the eight years I've had it. A gang of thieves was trying to break into an outside alarmed door of our residence one night late when that alarm sounded and those creeps were so badly shaken that they managed to scale a 12 foot wall in seconds and were long gone by the time the cops responded to the alarm a few minutes later. Nobody was hurt, nothing was stolen and I didn´t have to let those unsavory cops into my house which, in the town I live in, is important. The only damage done was to the underwear those gang members soiled as they fled home to mama and that was mama's problem.

I am a Mexican citizen, by the way, and have lived here full time for 15 years so I can legally own a gun in accordance with the rules but I would rather not shoot anyone for any reason here in Mexico. Now,in Alabama or California, when in Rome....


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## stanburn

So to get back to the OP's question, What is it that attracted you to San Miguel? Are you looking for quaint Mexican towns or are you looking for the same with a significant foreign population?

The answer would be very different to those two questions.

Personally I avoid foreigners. It seems to me that the whole reason to live in a foreign country is to immerse in the culture, language, etc. If you spend all of your time with foreigners you will not have the same experience.

So OP, tell us, what are you really after? Quaint with foreigners or just quaint?

Stan


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## citlali

Sorry stanburn you can immerse yourself in the culture even in places full of foreigners. It takes a stronger will but you can do it so you do not have to live in the boonies to do that, You can have your cake and eat it too if that is what you want to do.


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## GARYJ65

citlali said:


> Sorry stanburn you can immerse yourself in the culture even in places full of foreigners. It takes a stronger will but you can do it so you do not have to live in the boonies to do that, You can have your cake and eat it too if that is what you want to do.


And you tell him now???


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## 1happykamper

Thanks for all the responses. 4 people have been murdered in the last 10 days in San Miguel. If my rent was 450 usd 3 years ago then it is now around 600 usd a month. Both of these statistics are not attractive to me. Your mileage may vary. 

I have not been insulated from crime or expensive cities... ... Having lived in England Australia Mexico and currently in Chiang Mai Thailand. I miss Mexico and San Miguel original appeal has gone for me. 

"Stan " I want it all! Seriously... A quiet quaint town foremost... A few English speaking foreigners is good to have.


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## citlali

'No security in San Miguel de Allende'

This seems to confirm that there are quieter places.. Last night I saw the NBC 20/20 show on the ordeal Eduardo Garcia Velasca went through with his wife back several years ago and your post and the show made me look up the news in San Miguel . It does not look good right now. Those things go into waves but it still looks worrysome.


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## coondawg

citlali said:


> 'No security in San Miguel de Allende'


This article was from the middle of January. Surely some things are different in the almost a year's time, no? Things change, but things remain the same. You can always count on the smoke.


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## citlali

The OP says he is leaving because of the insecurity ..things can improve or go worst, I do not know which way they went in San Miguel but obviously the OP does not like the trend.


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## Hound Dog

I say wait it out. These unsettling events tend to come in waves. We have resided in the village of Ajijic in the Chapala Municipality in Jalisco since 2001 and also in the San Cristóbal de Las Casas Municipality in Chiapas since 2006. When we moved to Ajijic, the town was a pussycat. We are from France and the United States respectively and have lived and traveled in some pretty hairy places over the years and never felt safer in any of those places than in the Ajijic we encountered in 2001 and for several years after that.Then in about 2008 or so things turned really ugly here at Lake Chapala for a while with killings, assaults, burglaries and other criminal actvity that was quite disconcerting to say the least. That´s when we put in our alarm system and took other strong security measures to protect ourselves and our home. For a time there we felt safer while in poverty stricken, violent and unsettled Chiapas then when were residing at the lake. Then, just as quickly as this incremental ratcheting up of violence and crime had burst upon the scene, things once again became almost as tame as had been our historical experience back in thr early 2000s and, while we still have crime today, the level of crime and violence is unremarkable and that we would anticipate in a small city exurban to a huge city such as Guadalajara. 

As for San Cristóbal, there we live in a mostly Mexican neighborhood in the highly urbanized historic center of the city. "Coletos" know how to take care of themselves in our neighborhood there and have no respect for local cops so neighbors watch after neighbors and those who enter the barrio intent on criminal behavior soon regret that miscalculation. If anyone ever calls the cops there it's the bad guys seeking rescue from offended locals administering street justice.


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## GARYJ65

> As for San Cristóbal, there we live in a mostly Mexican neighborhood in the highly urbanized historic center of the city. "Coletos" know how to take care of themselves in our neighborhood there and have no respect for local cops so neighbors watch after neighbors and those who enter the barrio intent on criminal behavior soon regret that miscalculation. If anyone ever calls the cops there it's the bad guys seeking rescue from offended locals administering street justice.


Which also is a very dangerous way to act
In my opinion that is not a way to "administer street justice", it is just another way of braking the law and rules
There have been many cases where locals make a mistake and punish innocent people


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## citlali

Yes it is dangerous and there are way too many lynchings in this country but that is the way of the land. Our neighbors are not the mob type so no lynching but they are not easy going when it comes to defend the neighborhood.
The lynching of the two men from Teopisca by the drunken thief from Chamula was awful and so wall the lynching of a cab driver and passenger in San Juan Cancuc last year. The latest one in the State of Mexico also killed 2 innocent people. That is just awful but it is also the result of the lack of trust in the justice system. By the way the 6 people above were innocent people.

A friend of mine had a niece raped and murdered 3 weeks ago. They buried the young woman and refused to make a denuncia to the MP saying that it would not bring her back, would intrude on her privacy and nothing would happen to the murderers and that the murderers could come back for revenge if they went to the MP. I asked them what happened if these guys continue to kill, they shrug their shoulders. Two more young women were found murdered exactly the same way..how about that for scary and not trusting the system.


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## GARYJ65

Hound Dog said:


> I say wait it out. These unsettling events tend to come in waves. We have resided in the village of Ajijic in the Chapala Municipality in Jalisco since 2001 and also in the San Cristóbal de Las Casas Municipality in Chiapas since 2006. When we moved to Ajijic, the town was a pussycat. We are from France and the United States respectively and have lived and traveled in some pretty hairy places over the years and never felt safer in any of those places than in the Ajijic we encountered in 2001 and for several years after that.Then in about 2008 or so things turned really ugly here at Lake Chapala for a while with killings, assaults, burglaries and other criminal actvity that was quite disconcerting to say the least. That´s when we put in our alarm system and took other strong security measures to protect ourselves and our home. For a time there we felt safer while in poverty stricken, violent and unsettled Chiapas then when were residing at the lake. Then, just as quickly as this incremental ratcheting up of violence and crime had burst upon the scene, things once again became almost as tame as had been our historical experience back in thr early 2000s and, while we still have crime today, the level of crime and violence is unremarkable and that we would anticipate in a small city exurban to a huge city such as Guadalajara.
> 
> As for San Cristóbal, there we live in a mostly Mexican neighborhood in the highly urbanized historic center of the city. "Coletos" know how to take care of themselves in our neighborhood there and have no respect for local cops so neighbors watch after neighbors and those who enter the barrio intent on criminal behavior soon regret that miscalculation. If anyone ever calls the cops there it's the bad guys seeking rescue from offended locals administering street justice.


I understand
Not trusting the system is one thing, terrible things happening to good people is another and making justice by ones self is another. All of them are awful


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## Hound Dog

I did not intend in my posting above to sound flippant regarding "Street justice" in Chiapas or anywhere else for that matter. I was trying to encourage the OP, who expressed some disappointment in the San Miguel área due to some current criminal activity the OP reported there and a resultant desire to move to some alternative place in Mexico the OP hoped would be more suitable for his/her needs. The point I was trying to make was that, as was our experience at Lake Chapala, these unsettling crime waves come and go in most places so the best solution may be to simply hang around San Miguel and hope for the best rather than try the town down the road which may or may not prove suitable for the OP´s needs.

I made a mistke comparing the Chiapas Highlands where we live with that part of Lake Chapala where we also live. I caused some confusión by making that comparison and that I regret.

Chiapas is not Jalisco and the differnces in many respects are striking. I will confine comments about Chiapas to threads dedicated to that subject in the future.

By the way, we originally intended to move from the Lake Chapala área to the Chiapas Highlands back in 2006 when we bought the home down there. We were not leaving th lake because of crime but for other reasons I won´t go into here. Coincidentally, that spike in crime at the lake I discussed in my earlier post coupled with an economic crisis in the U.S. came along about the same time we were going to put the lake property on the market so the market for properties in the Chapala área became somewhat problematic. Consequently, we decided to hold onto the lake property until the market for housing became more favorable. Subsequentally, we decided to keep the lake property even after the market turned more favorable for selling since Lake Chapala is such great place to live at least part-time so we are pleased we did not make a snap decisión to move to Chiapas full-time. San Miguel is an attractive town in many ways so why not hang around for a time and maybe thic crime wave will subside.


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## stanburn

Citlali,

I don't feel like I live in the boondocks. I live in Manzanillo. Maybe if I post my true status like Gary does, I will get a pass. I too am a Mexican citizen. 

I agree it takes willpower, and the reality is that in my experience, the majority of people don't have it. Different strokes for different folks.


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## Isla Verde

stanburn said:


> Citlali,
> 
> I don't feel like I live in the boondocks. I live in Manzanillo. Maybe if I post my true status like Gary does, I will get a pass. I too am a Mexican citizen.
> 
> I agree it takes willpower, and the reality is that in my experience, the majority of people don't have it. Different strokes for different folks.


It's always useful to post your real status on the forum. That way we will know where you're coming from, so to speak.


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## ojosazules11

stanburn said:


> Citlali,
> 
> I don't feel like I live in the boondocks. I live in Manzanillo. Maybe if I post my true status like Gary does, I will get a pass. I too am a Mexican citizen.
> 
> I agree it takes willpower, and the reality is that in my experience, the majority of people don't have it. Different strokes for different folks.


There are a few forum members who are Mexican citizens. Some, like Hound Dog and I believe Citlali, are naturalized. Others, like Gary are Mexican born and bred. 

Clarifying that difference isn't to make one group "second-class citizens", but at least on certain topics the experience of growing up in the country and culture brings a different perspective than those who have moved to Mexico as adults.


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## Hound Dog

_


ojosazules11 said:



There are a few forum members who are Mexican citizens. Some, like Hound Dog and I believe Citlali, are naturalized. Others, like Gary are Mexican born and bred. 

Clarifying that difference isn't to make one group "second-class citizens", but at least on certain topics the experience of growing up in the country and culture brings a different perspective than those who have moved to Mexico as adults.

Click to expand...

_Understood, ojo. The longer I reside in Chiapas, the less I comprehend this complex culture but let's not assign this cultural ignorance or divide to any particular place on the globe.

A conversation Dawg had casually with a Chiapanecan recently on the Andador in San Cristobal :

CHIAPANECAN: Just where are you from?
DAWG: Lake Chapala.
CHIAPANECAN: Where´s that?
DAWG: Just south of Metropolian Guadalajara. You are familiar with Guadalajara, no?
CHIAPANECAN: Of course, everybody speaks English there.


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## ojosazules11

Hound Dog said:


> Understood, ojo. The longer I reside in Chiapas, the less I comprehend this complex culture but let's not assign this cultural ignorance or divide to any particular place on the globe.
> 
> A conversation Dawg had casually with a Chiapanecan recently on the Andador in San Cristobal :
> 
> CHIAPANECAN: Just where are you from?
> DAWG: Lake Chapala.
> CHIAPANECAN: Where´s that?
> DAWG: Just south of Metropolian Guadalajara. You are familiar with Guadalajara, no?
> CHIAPANECAN: Of course, everybody speaks English there.


In a similar vein, someone from the deep South, let's say Alabama, might imagine everything north of the 49th parallel is frozen tundra.


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## citlali

and then you have the French Mexican man I met last time I went back to France, born in France from French parents moved to Mexico where he was raised, went to school got married worked and one day woke up and decided Mexico City was too much and moved to Barcelona with his family, hated it because he was told he had to learn Catalan so moved to Switzerland and now cannot wait for his kids to graduate so he can move to Portugal because it is close to Mexico than Switzerland and was missing desperately..I would not be surprised if he moved back to Mexico after his kids were off to college and he was French by birth but way more Mexican than anything else although he was naturalized..it is all very complicated..


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## Isla Verde

citlali said:


> and then you have the French Mexican man I met last time I went back to France, born in France from French parents moved to Mexico where he was raised, went to school got married worked and one day woke up and decided Mexico City was too much and moved to Barcelona with his family, hated it because he was told he had to learn Catalan so moved to Switzerland and now cannot wait for his kids to graduate so he can move to Portugal because it is close to Mexico than Switzerland and was missing desperately..I would not be surprised if he moved back to Mexico after his kids were off to college and he was French by birth but way more Mexican than anything else although he was naturalized..it is all very complicated..


Quite a tale of a somewhat confused cultural-linguistic identity! Did he move to the French-speaking part of Switzerland?


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## Hound Dog

_


ojosazules11 said:



In a similar vein, someone from the deep South, let's say Alabama, might imagine everything north of the 49th parallel is frozen tundra.  

Click to expand...

_It isn't?


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## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> Quite a tale of a somewhat confused cultural-linguistic identity! Did he move to the French-speaking part of Switzerland?


I have a friend who is German but speaks French fluently as well. She lives in a German speaking part of Switzerland. She is treated much better by the local Swiss when she speaks French because her German is not the local Swiss German (Schweitzer Deutsch).

Europe is a small place, by Western hemisphere standards. Last time I was there, I passed through Germany, Austria, France, and Switzerland all in a few hours with no airplanes involved.


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## ojosazules11

Hound Dog said:


> It isn't?


In summertime, the living is easy...


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## Hound Dog

_


ojosazules11 said:



In summertime, the living is easy...









Click to expand...

_The difference, ojo, mi amigo, is that summertime in South Alabama arrives in the first part of April and exits in the latter part of November. The winters that replace those South Alabama mild to hot spring/summer/fall" BBQ on the back porch" seemingly endless seasons creep into the environment with humiliating wanness normally incapable of freezing the top layer of even the most humble of creeks with a pathetic overlay of thin ice.

Up north where Tuesday in July is no precursor of Wednesday, pack yo ham sammich intended for Wednesday's picnic in aluminum foil and take along an umbrella, a rainproof overcoat and a bus ticket back to Downtown Peoria.

I am reminded of the late southern comedian Dave Gardner from the 1960s/70s with his famous line, "The only reason folks live up nawth is 'cause they have Jobs up there."


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