# Cultural Adjustments



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

My wife and I are retirees who retired to Mexico from the United States ten years ago and live at Lake Chapala and in San Cristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas. Very different communities to say the least but this variety of lifestyles is pleasing to us. Over the years we have been fortunate to make many indigenous and Mestizo friends in both places and our mutual intercultural relationships have proven beneficial to us all. My wife, who grew up in Paris and they who grew up in Mexico in various areas, have been delighted to swap traditional dinner recipes from places as divergent as Paris or the Loire Valley in Europe and Chiapas and Oaxaca in Mexico.

We often invite our Mexican family friends over for swimming parties for the kids in our private swimming pool at Lake Chapala followed by feasts of everything from mole to tacos to crepes to hot dogs or pizza and we and everyone else enjoys tasting of the ethnic foods and, admittedly, at times junk foods of the others.

Now, as I stated, we have lived in two Mexican states. Jalisco for ten years and Chiapas for five years and in each location the cultural imperative and urban myth among Mexicans is that one must not flush soiled toilet paper down a commode. Well, there are times that that is true or at least not necessarily a bad idea, but modern day urban sewage systems and toilet paper are really not incompatible so for this entire decade here we have always flushed soiled toilet paper from our homes and without any consequence to municipal sewage systems in either of the small cities in which we live. Now, that might not be the case in some public sanitarios we use and honor local customs but that is always the case in our homes.

Anyway, getting back to these swimming parties for Mexican kids at our home at Lake Chapala, we have done many over the past few years but one element in the equation recently changed. We acquired a rambunctious new Xoloitzcuintli puppydog and, while that may not seem a connected event, after the most recent swimming party we, the next morning discovered that there was partially consumed and tattered soiled toilet paper strewn all about the floors of our house at seeming random order and for a while could not ascertain what the hell was going on. Then, I visited the bathroom and discovered a wastebasket half full of soiled toilet paper and it suddenly dawned on me that, while we always flush this unpleasant product down the commode, our young Mexican clients were, in keeping with their traditions, disposing of the stuff in an adjacent wastebasket we had placed there for other purposes. The flaw in this situation was only revealed by the innocent little puppy who obviously reveres soiled toilet paper which is understandable from a dog´s point of view but the scattering about of partially consumed toilet paper upon the premises is displeasing to humans so, from now on, despite puppy´s wishes, our young visitors will be required to flush this stuff herebouts at least.

We respect cultural diversity but it is time for the kids to learn another cultural axiom: When in Rome do as the Romans do. This house is Rome - perhaps misplaced but here neverthless.

By the way, the Mexican government agrees that modern toilet paper does not damage current day municipal sewers and propagandizes on behalf of flushing this stuff in the interests of public health to say nothing of esthetics .


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

*Toilet paper*



Hound Dog said:


> My wife and I are retirees who retired to Mexico from the United States ten years ago and live at Lake Chapala and in San Cristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas. Very different communities to say the least but this variety of lifestyles is pleasing to us. Over the years we have been fortunate to make many indigenous and Mestizo friends in both places and our mutual intercultural relationships have proven beneficial to us all. My wife, who grew up in Paris and they who grew up in Mexico in various areas, have been delighted to swap traditional dinner recipes from places as divergent as Paris or the Loire Valley in Europe and Chiapas and Oaxaca in Mexico.
> 
> We often invite our Mexican family friends over for swimming parties for the kids in our private swimming pool at Lake Chapala followed by feasts of everything from mole to tacos to crepes to hot dogs or pizza and we and everyone else enjoys tasting of the ethnic foods and, admittedly, at times junk foods of the others.
> 
> ...


Yucatan Living - Mexican Fosa Septica

As this article will explain why it is rude to flush toilet paper in all parts of Mexico [assumptions are sometimes just preconceived notions of how thing really are] and that is why all bathrooms [public and private] have plastic lined containers that are usually taken to the trash a few times a day. The sign you use to inform you have a house with a water treatment hook up is the only way the guests will know your system is on a municipal water treatment network as a very many houses are not still, especially in rural and far out suburban locations and that includes small towns and the suburbs of large cities. The water system hookup is paid for by the house owner in many instances when pipes are being laid down and many house owners opt out to have it integrated and keep their septic system and have it pumped out every year or so for a couple hundred pesos. Ask before you flush. That is the polite thing to do. That is a reason why all Mexicans close the bathroom door when leaving and a knock is used when entering, to keep the toddlers and dogs out of the trash bin.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

AlanMexicali said:


> Yucatan Living - Mexican Fosa Septica
> 
> As this article will explain why it is rude to flush toilet paper in all parts of Mexico [assumptions are sometimes just preconceived notions of how thing really are] and that is why all bathrooms [public and private] have plastic lined containers that are usually taken to the trash a few times a day. The sign you use to inform you have a house with a water treatment hook up is the only way the guests will know your system is on a municipal water treatment network as a very many houses are not still, especially in rural and far out suburban locations and that includes small towns and the suburbs of large cities. The water system hookup is paid for by the house owner in many instances when pipes are being laid down and many house owners opt out to have it integrated and keep their septic system and have it pumped out every year or so for a couple hundred pesos. Ask before you flush. That is the polite thing to do. That is a reason why all Mexicans close the bathroom door when leaving and a knock is used when entering, to keep the toddlers and dogs out of the trash bin.


Well, I don´t see where we are in disagreement and I appreciated your link to the difference between various types of septic systems. Dawg simply thought the anectode about the new puppy exposing cultural differences through an entirely innocent action was amusing. Keep in mind we have been having these swimming parties for a long time for the kids of our Mexican friends and it took the puppy´s appetite for soiled toilet paper to enlighten us as to the need to seal off the bathroom if these kids dispose of the soiled toilet paper in the adjacent, open trash can.

We agree that it is rude to flush toilet paper when one is a guest in another´s home or a hotel where it is uncustomary to do so and, after all, what could be more embarrassing than to have to explain the toilet backups if one is inclined to disrregard posted requests.


I am reminded of when we were building our new home in San Cristóbal de Las Casas in 2006 and it occurred to us that we had better make our desires clear to the San Cristóbal architect we were employing. We were building on an established city sewer line but one finds in Chiapas that old traditions die hard there so we approached the architect and made it clear we wanted to construct proper toilet disposal piping and venting so that we could dispose of fecal matter and its accompanying toilet paper upon flushing and his response, not untypical of responses in Chiapas - Mexico´s poorest and one of its most traditional states culturally - (and this is a precise quote as translated)," It is not our tradition to flush toilet here, Senior." I dropped the subject but made certain that pipes were adequate to feed the adjacent sewage lines and the toilets were adequately vented. 

One has to understand that the isue in Chiapas in much of the state is not whether one should flush toilet paper down non-existent toilets but where to sh*t in the first place which is usually in the fields adjacent to one´s homes or in a primitive outhouse utilizing a hole in the ground. In Chiapas the dried fecal matter in open fields is so prevelant that locals dread the warm dry season in April because the air itseff is tainted with dangerous bacteria and various digestive ailments become rampant just from breathing the air.

Now, all this is mildly amusing since the Jovel Valley in which San Cristóbal is the principality, is characterized by local rivers that are unspeakable filthy with untreated raw sewage right in the heart of the city. Tainted food is ubiquitous. Organic food is akin to crops grown in what the Chinese call "night soil" and you c

We really like it there or we would not have moved there at least half the year but if you go there, be prepared for stomach ailments as are the locals.

And, if you build there, keep your eye on the qulaity of your plumbing.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

A humorous anecdote that I have seen first hand regarding toilets, toilet paper and cultural differences.

There is an event center in a city just north of the border. The event center has a lot of events that attract people of Mexican origin. In the toilet stalls in the restrooms, after some of these events, the floor is littered with toilet paper.

The US managers wonder what it is with the Mexicans throwing toilet paper on the floor.
And the Mexicans wonder what it is with the management not supplying waste baskets for the toilet paper.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

TundraGreen said:


> A humorous anecdote that I have seen first hand regarding toilets, toilet paper and cultural differences.
> 
> There is an event center in a city just north of the border. The event center has a lot of events that attract people of Mexican origin. In the toilet stalls in the restrooms, after some of these events, the floor is littered with toilet paper.
> 
> ...


A good story Tudragreen:

My wife is from France and tells me tales of cultural differences occuring between western and eastern Europeans on this toilet paper issue. It seems that in certain Eastern European contries such as Bulgaria and others, it is also customary to throw toilet paper into adjacent wastepaper baskets and not flush it. Now, this becomes an issue as intenational trains proceed from, say Paris to Bucharest. As the trains pick up more and more Eastern Europeans who are used to having proper garbage cans in which to dispose of their soiled toilet paper and the train bathrooms have no such disposal cans, the Europeans from certain eastern countries don´t know what to do so , rather than flush the paper, they strew it on the floor of the train toilet and the wind generated by the train picks up the soiled toilet paper and distributes it throughout the passenger compartments leaving shreds of soiled toilet paper clinging to various parts of those compartments and the clothing of passengers to say nothing of clinging to the noses of those daring to breathe. This widely wind distributed detritus gets into very nook and cranny and is not only disgusting but unhealthful. 

The more I know the less I wish I knew.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

*Bathroom priorities.*



Hound Dog said:


> Well, I don´t see where we are in disagreement and I appreciated your link to the difference between various types of septic systems. Dawg simply thought the anectode about the new puppy exposing cultural differences through an entirely innocent action was amusing. Keep in mind we have been having these swimming parties for a long time for the kids of our Mexican friends and it took the puppy´s appetite for soiled toilet paper to enlighten us as to the need to seal off the bathroom if these kids dispose of the soiled toilet paper in the adjacent, open trash can.
> 
> We agree that it is rude to flush toilet paper when one is a guest in another´s home or a hotel where it is uncustomary to do so and, after all, what could be more embarrassing than to have to explain the toilet backups if one is inclined to disrregard posted requests.
> 
> ...


I also see were things that have to be confusing to some at first get eventually rationalized because of experience. The construction of our house is almost complete and has been ongoing for 5 1/2 days a week since Oct. The way we did it was we hired the Architect to oversee the construction. We are in San Luis Potosi. Their sewer system in parts of El Centro and other areas is quite antiquated and we see black water spilled out onto a parkway that still uses century old stone above ground enclosed channels on both sides of the divided road at times. [doesn't smell to good]. 

On my street on Mexicali for a year the municipality used to pressure clean the sewer line after it would leak in the same place every couple of months 3 doors down. The neighbors told me they finally installed an extra pumping unit close to our street and the problem went away. Mexicali is as flat as a platter. When driving around TJ and Mexicali these last few years the occasional smell of open sewer gas has diminished noticeable. Driving around central and west central Mexico it is still very noticeable on many occasions. Many houses and businesses use a black water cement tank buried in the yard and the pump truck does the work, not septic systems and if they are emptied without the cement tops plastered tight they will leak gas. This seems to be the source of many nasty smells when you drive by.


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