# Drying clothes without a machine...what am I getting wrong??



## amlachance

OK, yes, I was born and raised in the US and never lived without a clothes dryer. Call me spoiled - it was all I knew.
I have been in France since November and cannot for the life of me figure out how to dry the clothes, towels, or anything, on a line, or a drying rack without them being stiff, rough, itchy and so incredibly uncomfortable! Yes, I use "soupline" softner. Does nothing. 
While we are in the S of France, it isn't always sunny enough or warm enough to put clothes outside, so sometimes it takes a couple of days for things to dry. 
Doesn't seem to matter. Sunny day, cloudy days, outside or inside - anything with cotton in it especially, is SO rough and itchy, not soft and supple like pulling it out of a dryer. I mean, the towels are like sand paper, my cotton PJ's are awful, too. I was so desperate at one point we dragged everything down to this teeny tiny, not-so-clean laundromat (there are only 2 in this town) but it took all day. 
Making me crazy. 
Am I doing something wrong??


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## Yours truly confused

I like my towels like that, it’s like a free exfoliating, and I don’t use any fabric softener. I always put washing outside when it’s not raining, even if it is for an hour or so, then, if not dry they go on the airer in the bathroom. Nothing takes more than a day to dry. I don’t think you are doing anything wrong, it’s just not what you are used to.


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## debram

I also live in the south of France and am from the US where I always used a dryer. The water here has an extremely high calcium level and there’s not much you can do without a water softening system. Short of that, using Calgon helps as does shaking out your towels before hanging them and before folding them. I’ve also found a slight difference in cottons. But they will be stiff and rougher than machine-dried clothes. I’m used to it by now and it‘s not a problem. As suggested above, think of it as exfoliating and invigorating.


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## tardigrade

If I remember correctly you are renting but that does not stop you purchasing a dryer... Just be careful about the increases in the cost of electricity.


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## BackinFrance

This may sound counterintuitive, but

Reduce the spin speed 
Reduce the amount of detergent you use
Reduce the load you put in the machine
If your machine allows it, set it to do an extra rinse 

I hate Soupline, on the very rare occasions that I use a fabric softener I use L'arbre Vert, souffle de pureté, but there's no point if you do an extra rinse.

As said, shake out your wash as much as you can, but do it again as often as you can. 

My towels and most of my clothes are pure cotton. I have no problems at all with the clothing, though occasionally with towels,. Even so, once you have used a towel and hung it in the bathroom to dry, the problem disappears, as it most often does when you are using it to dry yourself.


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## amlachance

tardigrade said:


> If I remember correctly you are renting but that does not stop you purchasing a dryer... Just be careful about the increases in the cost of electricity.


We are staying in a family-owned property and cannot purchase any appliances.


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## amlachance

BackinFrance said:


> This may sound counterintuitive, but
> 
> Reduce the spin speed
> Reduce the amount of detergent you use
> Reduce the load you put in the machine
> If your machine allows it, set it to do an extra rinse
> 
> I hate Soupline, on the very rare occasions that I use a fabric softener I use L'arbre Vert, souffle de pureté, but there's no point if you do an extra rinse.
> 
> As said, shake out your wash as much as you can, but do it again as often as you can.
> 
> My towels and most of my clothes are pure cotton. I have no problems at all with the clothing, though occasionally with towels,. Even so, once you have used a towel and hung it in the bathroom to dry, the problem disappears, as it most often does when you are using it to dry yourself.


Interesting. I'll see if I can figure that out. The washer is all icons, no explanation so I'm not clear on what I'm doing. 

My PJ's feel like sandpaper. Not enjoyable and all I want to do is scratch my back all night. 
All my cotton clothes and underthings are stiff and itchy. It's miserable. Baffles me.


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## tardigrade

this is a Spanish company but there are French equivalent; ie. but, possibly carrefour, that will sell the same. Or Amazon, ebay.



https://www.mediamarkt.es/es/product/_secadora-de-aire-port%C3%A1til-jocel-jsr002228-con-ventilador-seca-hasta-15-kg-1000-w-ruedas-1429470.html


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## debram

You might try searching for the manual on the internet.


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## Bevdeforges

Line dried laundry will always be somewhat "stiff" - what you can do that helps a bit is to iron the clothes. (Yeah, I know, another strange appliance you may not be familiar with.) Honestly, without a dryer, they will never be all "soft and fluffy" like they are when dried in a large, US-style tumble dryer. And actually, the dryers you get over here are considerably smaller than the US ones, It is pretty rare that you can just wear clothes without passing an iron over them - unless they are mostly synthetic fibres or blends. I suppose that may explain why it can be difficult to find all-cotton fabrics here in France (and in much of Europe). 

Then again, they are predicting that it will be warm and sunny enough mid-next week here and I am looking forward to being able to dry sheets outside on the line. I really hate having to dry them in the dryer. (OK, I'm still working with a 40 year old dryer that is "cranky" at best.)


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## boilerman

Hard water is a killer for clothes and everything else, and France has a fair amount of it. 
Still, think yourself as lucky, that you're saving the planet by not using a drier. 
Sorry, that's a bit flippant, I know you're used to soft clothes, but that's part of the trade off, of living in France.
Get your other half to rub talc in your PJs


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## ALKB

amlachance said:


> Interesting. I'll see if I can figure that out. The washer is all icons, no explanation so I'm not clear on what I'm doing.
> 
> My PJ's feel like sandpaper. Not enjoyable and all I want to do is scratch my back all night.
> All my cotton clothes and underthings are stiff and itchy. It's miserable. Baffles me.


How much detergent do you use?

What temperature and spin cycle do you select?

I wash clothes inside out, then, before hanging them up, I turn them right side out, grasp them at the top, shake them out and give them a good pull lengthwise.


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## Lancashire_Lass

As a Brit who moved to the States, one of the key things as already mentioned is amount of detergent. You can usually in my experience get away with a quarter (there are articles on how the detergent manufacturers have duped us into believing we need a lot), although it maybe depends on the individual clothing. UK machines hold a fraction of the water too. Fabric softener doesn’t seem to help much, but Calgon for the hardness and also adding white vinegar to the rinse water (it doesn’t smell, promise!) does. And it is the manual mashing of clothes in the dryer that seems to do the trick hence the ironing trick. (I got laughed at on my arrival in the US for ironing things. In my defense I didn’t iron underwear but I know people who do). So it in my experience is a direct result of not rinsing all the soap out. And for towels especially I listen for the soapy crackle when taking out of the washer. 
Might not help though, especially if your towels have months of buildup. It took me multiple wash cycles to get them soft again.


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## BackinFrance

Yes, about a quarter of the recommended dose, or more often for me one fifth. The doses and measuring cups are definitely overdone. Even with such a small amount of detergent I can still see some suds when my machine does its second rinse, and you have to remember that washing machines here are real water misters.
I never spin a cotton wash at more than 1200, jeans and similar I spin at 900.
When hanging clothes outside they are always inside out to avoid fading and dry pockets etc, and that allows me to flatten and straighten sezms. I also pull the items both vertically and horizontally. 

I don't iron, can't even remember when I last pulled out the iron.


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## fmartin_gila

Couple of suggestions: 1 - Sleep naked, it's good for you. 2 - At our house, I do the laundry(washing & hanging). about an hour after I have hung the items, my wife will spray the items with a softener using a atomizer type pump, then let finish drying. Usually only takes about 2 hours total drying time.

Fred


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## Peasant

amlachance said:


> Am I doing something wrong??


a) Don't bother using fabric softener (Why You Don't Need Fabric Softener)
b) Experiment with different laundry detergents. We use Le Chat Bébé and things are fine.


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## Befuddled

Fred's idea about sleeping naked is a good one.
It should be warm enough in the south to do that.
We do in Brittany and we have no heating apart from a little woodburner downstairs.


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## boilerman

Befuddled said:


> Fred's idea about sleeping naked is a good one.
> It should be warm enough in the south to do that.
> We do in Brittany and we have no heating apart from a little woodburner downstairs.


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## Franco-Belgian Brit

Indian washing nuts instead of detergent.

Check out Alepia Noix de Lavage on Amazon FR.


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## tardigrade

Franco-Belgian Brit said:


> Indian washing nuts instead of detergent.
> 
> Check out Alepia Noix de Lavage on Amazon FR.


You can also purchase them at any bio shop


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## Franco-Belgian Brit

tardigrade said:


> You can also purchase them at any bio shop


Alas, not here in Belgium 😢


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## tardigrade

Sounds like a good business opportunity for you or one of your friends.


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## ccm47

I was always taught to iron PJs and underwear if they had not been boiled as the heat reduces any latent risk of catching Chlamydia. I don't know if that is true, just that we've never had that type of infection.

One of my horses needs a rug when it is very cold, each summer I wash the rug, on its own, in the machine at 30° with no soap: believe me it is really grubby when it goes in, especially at the tail end, yet it comes out looking like new.


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## boilerman

ccm47 said:


> One of my horses needs a rug when it is very cold, each summer I wash the rug, on its own, *in the machine at 30° with no soap: *believe me it is really grubby when it goes in, especially at the tail end, yet it comes out looking like new.


Yeah, this bit is so true. 
*"In hot-water systems, practically precipitation of calcium carbonate, CaCO3, starts to occur at approximately 35°C to 40°C (or as pressure drops), and progressively worsens as temperatures rise."*
this would affect the "stiffness/roughness" of the washed items. Long time ago, we had to call out a W/M engineer for some warranty work, he told us that there's way too much detergent and softeners used in washing machines, and it shortens their life for on thing, it doesn't get the clothes any cleaner, was another. We use white vinegar as a softener, you honestly cant smell it, as someone else said. It also helps with the build up of hard water crystals, or calcium on the inside working of the machine.

About the same time we found, "non detergent balls" that we used instead of powder. Gawd knows what was in them, but they worked, really well. Never found them since.


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## conky2

A most riveting thread on washing and drying clothes........I never knew it was so complicated ............!


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## Clic Clac

conky2 said:


> A most riveting thread on washing and drying clothes........I never knew it was so complicated ............!


I'm posting the sequel - 'washing up without Marigolds' - next week. 😊


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## Illyana

debram said:


> I also live in the south of France and am from the US where I always used a dryer. The water here has an extremely high calcium level and there’s not much you can do without a water softening system. Short of that, using Calgon helps as does shaking out your towels before hanging them and before folding them. I’ve also found a slight difference in cottons. But they will be stiff and rougher than machine-dried clothes. I’m used to it by now and it‘s not a problem. As suggested above, think of it as exfoliating and invigorating.


Am I missing something here? Why the hell do people not have clothes dryers in France?


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## ALKB

Illyana said:


> Am I missing something here? Why the hell do people not have clothes dryers in France?


Dryers are a lot less common in Europe in general than in the US.

I don't think I know anyone in Germany (or France, Switzerland, Austria) who has a dryer.

My reasons:

Space - i wouldn't know where to put a dryer, there are no dedicated spaces for this

Cost of energy - I am already paying way too much for electricity without adding a high energy gadget for something that happens on its own

Environmental reasons - again, I am using way too much energy as it is


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## newyorkerinparis

ALKB said:


> Cost of energy - I am already paying way too much for electricity without adding a high energy gadget for something that happens on its own
> 
> Environmental reasons - again, I am using way too much energy as it is


I agree 100%. It was a bit of an adjustment to go dryer-less when I first moved here, but now the idea of roasting my clothes over high heat seems so wasteful. Air drying is also less damaging to your clothes. As others have said, to minimize stiffness don't use too much detergent, and use the "rinçage plus" cycle if you have one. Eventually, you'll just adjust your sense of what feels normal.


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## Bevdeforges

Illyana said:


> Am I missing something here? Why the hell do people not have clothes dryers in France?


Traditionally, electricity has been considered an expensive utility - and to be honest, the standard size dryers you find in most of Europe (i.e. built to fit into a standard under-the-counter space) aren't really big enough to give the same results as the huge US dryers in terms of clothes not needing to be ironed if they are hung up promptly. 

Here in the north of France, dryers are a big convenience for use during the winter months when laundry hung outside to dry is more likely to just freeze rather than to dry. But during the spring and summer (and a good part of the fall) outdoor drying is much to be preferred. 

When I lived in Germany it was standard practice for apartment buildings to have "laundry rooms" (usually in the basement) that either had clotheslines or space to set up those laundry drying racks. Or else you put the drying racks out on the balcony of your apartment (preferably out of sight from the street - very discreet).


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## Franco-Belgian Brit

Here in Belgium, we only use our dryer when it's raining.

The other 6 days, we hang the washing on the line.


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## Yours truly confused

Franco-Belgian Brit said:


> Here in Belgium, we only use our dryer when it's raining.
> 
> The other 6 days, we hang the washing on the line.


Blimey, the weather must have improved since we lived there


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## Bevdeforges

Case in point here: I had originally planned to hang laundry outside today, given the rain-free forecast and mild temperatures. However, yesterday's "Sahara sand" conditions, with more predicted for Thursday changed my plans. And as it turns out, it's seriously foggy out there, so chances are nothing will dry particularly well anyhow. 

There are advisories out in Germany about this - because hanging laundry out to dry may result in the reddish colored sand coating the laundry as it dries. (The roof of my car is already covered with a fine layer of damp sand that sticks like cement.)


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## amlachance

We've had cool, cloudy temps here in the South for more than several days. It took 3 days just for some nylon panties to dry as we keep the temps low in the house to save $$. My bath towels never fully dry between showers unless it is sunny (which it has not been for days). 
It is an adjustment, that's for sure. 
Thanks for the suggestion, I'll be trying the extra rinse (but isn't that also using more water and electricity as well, in which case the argument for the energy consumed by an electric dryer...might make it "a wash" lol, pun sort of intended).
Once we relocate to our next lodging for 4 months, I'll be using the laundromat in town from time to time.


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## Bevdeforges

Be careful with the "Sahara sand" we're getting at the moment. In Germany they warn against the "Blutregen" which can stain your clothing if the reddish sand collects on your laundry hung outside. Today seems better than yesterday, but I've heard forecasts that things could get "sandy" again tomorrow. 

But hey, just look at how much "closer to nature" things are here in Europe!


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## amlachance

boilerman said:


> Yeah, this bit is so true.
> *"In hot-water systems, practically precipitation of calcium carbonate, CaCO3, starts to occur at approximately 35°C to 40°C (or as pressure drops), and progressively worsens as temperatures rise."*
> this would affect the "stiffness/roughness" of the washed items. Long time ago, we had to call out a W/M engineer for some warranty work, he told us that there's way too much detergent and softeners used in washing machines, and it shortens their life for on thing, it doesn't get the clothes any cleaner, was another. We use white vinegar as a softener, you honestly cant smell it, as someone else said. It also helps with the build up of hard water crystals, or calcium on the inside working of the machine.
> 
> About the same time we found, "non detergent balls" that we used instead of powder. Gawd knows what was in them, but they worked, really well. Never found them since.


oooh, going to try the white vinegar trick. I use it constantly to clean veggies and fruit as well as get calcium stains off glassware. 
Those balls are popular in the US but I've never tried them. Some habits are hard to break. I wouldn't wash my hands or my kitchen counters, cutting boards, plates, utensils, etc without some kind of soap or detergent, so I can't wrap my head around "washing" my clothes without it either!

I was also very surprised to as I asked my (French) niece, mother-in-law and sister-in-law about using bleach to wash white items and they were perplexed saying they had never heard of using bleach for laundry! We had a white tablecloth here at the home where we are staying (not our home) and there was some coffee and wine spots I wanted to wash asap to get the stains out and wanted bleach to do so - they had never heard of such a thing and said they used a different type of detergent (can't remember what now bc I just bought bleach anyway) and that it all comes out and clean! So surprising to me as I know for certain back home if I do a load of whites w bleach there is a big difference as to when I wash whites like colors. 

Yes, who knew laundry in another country could be this different!! lol


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## boilerman

Maybe its a septic tank consideration, a properly managed septic tank, wont like bleaches and other harsh chemicals. Just a thought


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## amlachance

boilerman said:


> Maybe its a septic tank consideration, a properly managed septic tank, wont like bleaches and other harsh chemicals. Just a thought


No septic tanks among any of them. It was as if it was a totally foreign idea to use bleach for laundry. So interesting.


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## tardigrade

Illyana said:


> Am I missing something here? Why the hell do people not have clothes dryers in France?


As said - it comes down to money and space... Most of our clients have huge dryers in their "laundry rooms" here in Spain and France...


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## Bevdeforges

amlachance said:


> (can't remember what now bc I just bought bleach anyway)


Did you buy liquid bleach or those bleach tablets that you dissolve in water? Those were a real revelation to me. And actually, we use them now mostly to make up a bleach solution for scrubbing out the donkeys' hooves when they have fourmiliere de sabot - which as far as I can tell is French for "white line" infection in the hoof.


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## amlachance

Bevdeforges said:


> Did you buy liquid bleach or those bleach tablets that you dissolve in water? Those were a real revelation to me. And actually, we use them now mostly to make up a bleach solution for scrubbing out the donkeys' hooves when they have fourmiliere de sabot - which as far as I can tell is French for "white line" infection in the hoof.


I bought liquid because it is what I am familiar with. It definitely got the wine and coffee stains out of the white tablecloth, thankfully. At home if I wash something white with a stain with just regular detergent, it will sometimes settle the stain in with no hope of removing it after a wash. Bleach in the US is a household item in most every home...by the look of the bleach section in the store here (and how hard it was to even find it), I can see that is not the case in France.


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## marzipan71

We moved to Italy from the US three years ago. We'd obviously given up our US washer and dryer (made by LG) but wanted to replace them with something at least comparable in performance and capacity. We actually found it quite easy to buy good products - our washer and dryer are made by Samsung and are both A+++ energy rated, washer has a 10kg capacity, dryer a 9kg capacity, and they can do a washing load in 39 minutes, and a full drying cycle takes an hour or so. We have them sitting on top of each other with a sort of tray thing you can pull out between which is useful. They're both internet-connected which is not something I ever thought I'd need but is actually useful - you can control both remotely and get alerts when the cycles are complete (I know it sounds silly, but it is useful and it wasn't an optional extra!).

That said, we dry clothes outside on a line 100% of the time in summer; in winter, we hang out clothes on sunny days and then finish their drying on the 'rapid' 35 minute cycle; on dull rainy days we use the dryer to dry everything. We have a water softener installed, and our washing machine 'autodoses' detergent; we don't use fabric softener. In summer, the towels and clothes aren't ever stiff so I'm guessing that the water softener is the key here - in line with others, could be the hard water that is causing stiffness and the vinegar trick sounds a good solution.

Just wanted to add so that when you eventually in a position to purchase your own appliances, I'm sure there are good brands out there which will deliver a near-US experience in terms of performance. Getting my US in-laws to believe that drying their clothes on the line when they visit is a normal thing here is another thing altogether.


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## Franco-Belgian Brit

Yours truly confused said:


> Blimey, the weather must have improved since we lived there


Climate change doing Belgium a favour.


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## Befuddled

amlachance said:


> Bleach in the US is a household item in most every home...by the look of the bleach section in the store here (and how hard it was to even find it), I can see that is not the case


Bleach (javel) is available in every supermarket I have ever entered. Even the larger garden tool outlets have it by the large container. Along with any number of strong acids and cleaners. Stuff no mere mortal should have access to.


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## BackinFrance

My extra rinse only takes 5 minutes or so and the machines here use very little water and not much power.


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## boilerman

Bevdeforges said:


> Did you buy liquid bleach or those bleach tablets that you dissolve in water? Those were a real revelation to me. And actually, *we use them now mostly to make up a bleach solution for scrubbing out the donkeys' hooves *when they have fourmiliere de sabot - which as far as I can tell is French for "white line" infection in the hoof..


Is this stuff any help for donkeys feet? People in the horsey world, around here, seem to go mad for it.

Horse Hoof Oil - High quality equine healthcare product to aid hoof growth and hoof health (horse-hoof-oil.com) 

He lives next door to me


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## Peasant

Illyana said:


> Am I missing something here? Why the hell do people not have clothes dryers in France?


Many people have clothes lines or drying racks.
We have a washer/dryer combo, but tend to use a drying rack (inside when it's cold, outside on the balcony when it's warm) for anything but socks and undies.


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## Bevdeforges

Oh yeah, hoof oil is also pretty common - particularly when their hooves get dry and brittle. But the bleach is specifically to kill the germs that get into the edge of the hoof. According to our farrier, the problem with the white line disease is that it's an anaerobic bacteria that gets into the hoof and the best way to treat it is to clean the hoof and scrape out the white line a bit and then apply bleach. Because of the oxygen in the bleach, it kills the bacteria very efficiently and then you have to keep the hooves clean to allow air to circulate to the white line.


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## amlachance

Befuddled said:


> Bleach (javel) is available in every supermarket I have ever entered. Even the larger garden tool outlets have it by the large container. Along with any number of strong acids and cleaners. Stuff no mere mortal should have access to.


it was available, yes. It just was a small section not easily spotted, unlike the massive sections I'm used to in the US and my French niece who took me shopping had no idea even where to look for it. So, I found that interesting. (she's a 42 yr old mother of 2, so not like she doesn't do laundry). She told me she'd never bought it before herself for any reason.


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## Befuddled

It's a French thing. Not much logic or consistency where you will find specific items in a supermarket. After a few months learning curve you get to know your way around. Then they move things around and you have to start fresh.
Try to find dried milk products. You might find them near the baking requisites. Maybe near coffee and tea. Rarely near the liquid milk. And most certainly not in the same place in any three supermarkets in the same town.


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## conky2

if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.........my technique is to put various liquids in the machine as previously instructed by madame and then push some buttons again as taught. If all has gone well, when I return, the water should have emptied and I can open the door to hang them out on the line.

Worked yesterday for bed linen and towels and fingers crossed for today and my dirty clothes.


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## BackinFrance

Bevdeforges said:


> Oh yeah, hoof oil is also pretty common - particularly when their hooves get dry and brittle. But the bleach is specifically to kill the germs that get into the edge of the hoof. According to our farrier, the problem with the white line disease is that it's an anaerobic bacteria that gets into the hoof and the best way to treat it is to clean the hoof and scrape out the white line a bit and then apply bleach. Because of the oxygen in the bleach, it kills the bacteria very efficiently and then you have to keep the hooves clean to allow air to circulate to the white line.


Could you not use gel hydro alcoolique?


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## Kid Charlemagne

tardigrade said:


> As said - it comes down to money and space... Most of our clients have huge dryers in their "laundry rooms" here in Spain and France...


I expect it may come down to venting the dryer as well - in the US it's trivial to cut a hole in the wall to run a vent to the outside, but it seems most french houses are stone or concrete - much more of a challenge. On the other hand, newer dryers are "no vent required" which might make installation easier.


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## BarbTF

On the hard water issue, just in case it's relevant: I have atrociously hard (and stinky sulfur-smelling) well water at my house here in Florida. I haven't been running my water conditioning system lately because ants keep colonizing the circuit board in one piece of the equipment and I'm tired of replacing it constantly...though I know I have to get the repair guys out here soon to replace it again.

Anyhow, since I stopped using the conditioning system my dishes have come out of the dishwasher not only with hard water spots but with a hard scratchy film of mineral deposits coating them. It's been awful--even a dish of vinegar sitting on the top rack of the dishwasher has not made it go away to any appreciable degree. It occurred to me one day to try the food-grade citric acid powder that I have for use in my water system (I get it from Amazon.) Miraculously, if I just sprinkle some around the detergent tab in the detergent holder of the dishwasher before I start the cycle, the dishes (and the stainless steel interior of the dishwasher, which had also picked up a cloudy mineral coating) come out sparkling clean. 

It's amazing what kinds of things delight you as you get older! Figuring this out just made my week!

Anyhow, might be a solution in your clothes washer as well. It seems to work better than vinegar in the dishwasher for hard water.


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## Bevdeforges

BackinFrance said:


> Could you not use gel hydro alcoolique?


I would not want to try and put hand gel on a donkey's hoof. And I think the oxygen that is part of the bleach formula is important, due to the anaerobic bacteria you're trying to kill off. (Exposure to oxygen kills them off much more effectively than alcohol.)


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## Bevdeforges

Kid Charlemagne said:


> On the other hand, newer dryers are "no vent required" which might make installation easier.


I think these may be the "condenser" dryers that have been available here in France for ages. (It's how they avoid having to punch a hole in the wall to vent the dryer.) Saw an article several years ago that condenser dryers were catching on in NYC apartments.

Basically a condenser dryer condenses out the water from the load of clothes you're drying and it collects in a long tray/drawer like thing. You do have to pull out the drawer and empty out the water, cause if the thing is full up the clothes won't dry at all. Nowadays you can get a heat-pump dryer, where you have the option to either condense the water into a drawer like a regular condenser dryer or run a tube directly to a drain in the laundry room floor or over to the sink in the laundry room.


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## conky2

conky2 said:


> Worked yesterday for bed linen and towels and fingers crossed for today and my dirty clothes.



Disaster.........should've listened to Bev.....


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## boilerman

BarbTF said:


> On the hard water issue, just in case it's relevant: I have atrociously hard (and stinky sulfur-smelling) well water at my house here in Florida. I haven't been running my water conditioning system lately because ants keep colonizing the circuit board in one piece of the equipment and I'm tired of replacing it constantly...though I know I have to get the repair guys out here soon to replace it again.
> 
> Anyhow, since I stopped using the conditioning system my dishes have come out of the dishwasher not only with hard water spots but with a hard scratchy film of mineral deposits coating them. It's been awful--even a dish of vinegar sitting on the top rack of the dishwasher has not made it go away to any appreciable degree. It occurred to me one day to try the food-grade citric acid powder that I have for use in my water system (I get it from Amazon.) Miraculously, if I just sprinkle some around the detergent tab in the detergent holder of the dishwasher before I start the cycle, the dishes (and the stainless steel interior of the dishwasher, which had also picked up a cloudy mineral coating) come out sparkling clean.
> 
> It's amazing what kinds of things delight you as you get older! Figuring this out just made my week!
> 
> Anyhow, might be a solution in your clothes washer as well. It seems to work better than vinegar in the dishwasher for hard water.


Bloody hard water, there should be a law against it We use white vinegar, as a rinse aid, in the dishwasher as well as the washing machine as a softener. The success of it, is subjective, as the hardness of the water differs greatly. Here in this part of Shropshire, it comes from a local bore hole. Its a pig when washing the van/car, or the windows, as it leaves streaks.
Salting machines and/or reverse osmosis set ups do help, but why should the customer have to pay

Water Softener vs Reverse Osmosis - Puronics


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## SPGW

I would just get used to appreciating good “crisp” towels, clothes etc… it’s like not putting sugar in coffee, after a short while you prefer it. ( rough towels also seem much more absorbant, they dry you quicker). 
There was a thread on buying US style driers some while ago - living in 4 European countries, I have never known anyone, friends, neighbours, family, colleagues, using a clothes drier.


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## Illyana

White vinegar worked for me - in last rinse- at least enough to have comfy sheets and pjs. I don’t put vinegar on the towels -I like them rough.


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## janinehudson

I've got a state-of-the-art solar/wind powered dryer. Everything hunky-dory.
Try crumpling and shaking out again. 
After one usage, towels won't be rough any longer.
A touch of an iron will smooth and soften.
Also, I've been told that electric dryers cause one's clothes to wear out more quickly, so there's that advantage.


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## paulmlemay

SPGW said:


> "it’s like not putting sugar in coffee, after a short while you prefer it.


Good Lord don't take my sugar!


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## amlachance

Well since my original post we've relocated 20 minutes west to an apartment where a laundromat is within walking distance. While there is a washer here at the apt, it is tiny and I just opted for the laundromat as it was clean and I was so happy to use a dryer! It just felt SO good to have warm, soft clothes again!


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## tardigrade

amlachance said:


> Well since my original post we've relocated 20 minutes west to an apartment where a laundromat is within walking distance. While there is a washer here at the apt, it is tiny and I just opted for the laundromat as it was clean and I was so happy to use a dryer! It just felt SO good to have *warm*, soft clothes again!


Happy for you. 
Do you put the clothes on at the laundrymat ?


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## amlachance

tardigrade said:


> Happy for you.
> Do you put the clothes on at the laundrymat ?


ha! It was tempting! I did put them up to my face to feel the warmth (it was very cool and windy that day). My sweatshirts were nice and warm and fluffy - so nice to have soft PJ's, towels and socks again.


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## Bevdeforges

And so, all's well that ends well. Glad to hear you have found a solution.


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