# Legitimate rental agreement.



## Flavos (Mar 6, 2014)

Folks we are currently in a long term rental, and our deposit is in a bank in Russia, we do worry that we wont have it returned to us when we leave! Is there a simple way of checking if the rental agreement is official? Ie at the town hall or online or indeed with Hacienda?


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Flavos said:


> Folks we are currently in a long term rental, and our deposit is in a bank in Russia, we do worry that we wont have it returned to us when we leave! Is there a simple way of checking if the rental agreement is official? Ie at the town hall or online or indeed with Hacienda?


It depends who is holding your deposit. Historically, its been quite common for the deposit not to be returned. Many people dont pay the last months rent to off set that. Although if its all done properly, then since neither party hold the deposit, it should be returned on you leaving the property as you found it

Jo xxx


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

The contract _should_ be legally registered but I would suggest that 99.9% of them never are!

Is it in Spanish? What's the duration stipulated? Does it mention the rental law? Does it state that the deposit will be held in an escrow account?


----------



## Flavos (Mar 6, 2014)

jojo said:


> It depends who is holding your deposit. Historically, its been quite common for the deposit not to be returned. Many people dont pay the last months rent to off set that. Although if its all done properly, then since neither party hold the deposit, it should be returned on you leaving the property as you found it Jo xxx


 the deposit 2 months rent €3k is in the owners bank account in Russia, the house is being managed by another Russian person, should the deposit be in a government scheme? and if not is that against the law?


----------



## Flavos (Mar 6, 2014)

Thankyou the contract is in Spanish, it is a a 11 month contract, however after 6 months either party can give 2 months notice, there is no mention of the deposit being held in an escrow account, we paid cash and got a receipt, am i right in thinking it is illegal for the landlord or the person acting for the landlord to do this? We payed 2 months deposit amounting to €3k it doesn't bode well for us getting it returned, the utilities are in our name so we will be paying any final bills etc,


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Hmmm. For future reference, 11 month contracts are no good. Sign for 6 or 12 months. The law then states that these are renewable for up to 3 years.

It is not illegal for the landlord/agent to hold the deposit as most seem to do this.

If you are concerned about getting the deposit back, just make sure that the utilities are put back into the landlords name before you leave - in fact, why not leave the last bill for them to pay unless they give the deposit back?

As a landlord myself, I shouldn't be advocating this but then I always give the deposit back where there is no damage to be repaired.


----------



## Flavos (Mar 6, 2014)

Thank You Snikpoh,when you say the contract should be registered, where should it be registered? And if its not registered is this against the law? Also how can you check to see if it is registered? also when you say an 11 month contract is no good, does this mean it is also illegal or not worth the paper it is written on? Thanks in advance.


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Flavos said:


> Thank You Snikpoh,when you say the contract should be registered, where should it be registered? And if its not registered is this against the law? Also how can you check to see if it is registered? also when you say an 11 month contract is no good, does this mean it is also illegal or not worth the paper it is written on? Thanks in advance.


You register the contract on the Spanish Property Registry (Registro de la Propiedad) in front of a Notary.



> only such contracts will have full legal protection in the event of any court case about your rental that could arise. Only registered contracts, where the landlord is completely legal in his operations and declares the rental income for tax purposes, have the full protection of the law, although in reality it is often the case that many landlords don’t do this and the rental contract is valid in Court.


11-month contracts are not really worth the paper they are written on - but don't fret too much about it, at least you have something.

btw - notice periods are normally one month either way unless the contract states otherwise. If you pay monthly, then the notice period should be one month.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

If your deposit money is in Russia I'd say I have more chance of winning the Miss Spain competition than of you getting your money back, unforunately.
As has been said, eleven month contracts have no legal standing.
We paid a similarly large deposit on an apartment we rented andguessed our chances of getting it back were zero. We didn't pay the last two months' rent.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> If your deposit money is in Russia I'd say I have more chance of winning the Miss Spain competition than of you getting your money back, unforunately.
> As has been said, eleven month contracts have no legal standing.
> We paid a similarly large deposit on an apartment we rented andguessed our chances of getting it back were zero. We didn't pay the last two months' rent.


which is of course illegal  

but then so is withholding the deposit with some spurious 'reason' as so many owners do - hence it being common practice


----------



## Flavos (Mar 6, 2014)

Thanks folks, i have some real concerns now as there was no inventory done, just some photos, so any fines so to speak will be at the property managers discretion, how can we find out if this let is legal ie are the absent owners declaring the€1500 per month we have been paying them? Whilst the property manager is on a retainer of € 125 per month! Who apart from a gestor would i speak to to find if our let is illegal?


----------



## hibiscus123 (Aug 27, 2015)

hi I have been renting my house for the last three and a half years, written contract, receipts given when I call down and pay her, utilities bills in her name so she gives me a photo copy of the bill and I pay her, just wondering what sorts of rights as a long term tenant do I have, don't get me wrong the landlady is terrific and then again I am a good tenant ie fix faults/repairs myself and always pay on time so no intension of suddenly not paying and becoming a 'tenant' from hell, but here's the rub she is not exactly a spring chicken (sorry) and I wonder what would/could happen if god forbid her estate suddenly become someone else's estate, could they ask/kick me out of my home?


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

hibiscus123 said:


> hi I have been renting my house for the last three and a half years, written contract, receipts given when I call down and pay her, utilities bills in her name so she gives me a photo copy of the bill and I pay her, just wondering what sorts of rights as a long term tenant do I have, don't get me wrong the landlady is terrific and then again I am a good tenant ie fix faults/repairs myself and always pay on time so no intension of suddenly not paying and becoming a 'tenant' from hell, but here's the rub she is not exactly a spring chicken (sorry) and I wonder what would/could happen if god forbid her estate suddenly become someone else's estate, could they ask/kick me out of my home?


You have the right to remain in the property for (almost) as long as you want provided you meet your legal obligations.

They (or anyone who subsequently owns the property) can only ask you to leave if they want the property for their own use.


PLEASE get receipts for any money you pay them. This includes rent (best done via bank transfer), utility bills etc. Then there can be no doubt what you have paid and when.


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Flavos said:


> Thanks folks, i have some real concerns now as there was no inventory done, just some photos, so any fines so to speak will be at the property managers discretion, how can we find out if this let is legal ie are the absent owners declaring the€1500 per month we have been paying them? Whilst the property manager is on a retainer of € 125 per month! Who apart from a gestor would i speak to to find if our let is illegal?



Photos are fine in lieu of an inventory - provided both parties have copies of course.

Whether the owners declare the rental income should be of no concern of yours as it doesn't affect you at all!

Who's paying the retainer - hopefully the landlord?


Why are you so concerned about the legality of the contract? What's wrong with getting a gestor or abogado to check the contract?


----------



## hibiscus123 (Aug 27, 2015)

snikpoh said:


> You have the right to remain in the property for (almost) as long as you want provided you meet your legal obligations.
> 
> They (or anyone who subsequently owns the property) can only ask you to leave if they want the property for their own use.
> 
> ...


I have kept ALL receipts from day 1, I am bit o c d when it comes to paperwork etc.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I think you are going to have to put this one down to experience. The contract isn't legal and your deposit isn't in the country(Spain).
My advice would be not to pay the last two months' rent- yes, I know it's illegal - and make sure that you have a proper, legal contract for your next rental with a proper written detailed inventory agreed and signed by both parties.
As for keeping all paperwork...it's not OCD, it's proper sensible practice. I've been both landlord, in the past, and tenant, now, and it's so important to have a paper trail of all transactions.
We pay rent through our bank to our landlord's bank. He is a good landlord, pays all due taxes. A landlord who does everything above board is more likely to treat his/ her tenants fairly.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Question for Snikpoh....after four years of invalid eleven month contracts I suggested to our landlord, with whom we have a good, friendly relationship, both parties being well aware of the advantages of this, that we should draw up a legally valid contract for three years plus a further two years with an increase in rent as per inflation. I wrote it and omitted the clause relating to the landlord having the right to terminate the contract at the end of the due date. As the contract now stands, it states renewal if both parties agree.
We're considering that after December 31st 2016 when the three years is up, we might like to stay for a further two years in this unfurnished property. 
Can our wishes as tenants since early 2009 over-ride those of our landlord should he wish not to renew?
I don't think he will want to lose us as tenants, in fact we think he would lie down in front of the Pickfords truck to stop us moving out, but I'd like to know what rights we have. 
He is Austrian, lives in Austria, has another property here he uses when he visits.


----------



## Flavos (Mar 6, 2014)

Thanks Snikpoh in answer to the question why should we be concerned about tax being payed on the € 1500 per month? Well my answer would be if the owner isnt declaring the earnings coming from the income. Then this is clearly illegal and so the basis for the contract would be on dodgy ground also the fact that the €3000 is not held in a Spanish bank account would also not appear to be legal, so again the contract would be questionable, i guess what im saying is on one hand as a landlord you try to say your contract is legal then on the other hand you dont and havnt declared income on your rental property ie you pick and choose which parts of the law you adhere to, im guessing there must be a telephone number for the Spanish Inland revenue that you could phone to enquire?


----------



## Flavos (Mar 6, 2014)

Also once we find out if all taxes etc are above board and the owners have done everything legally/illegally we will get a Abogado to look at the contract armed with these facts.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Flavos said:


> Also once we find out if all taxes etc are above board and the owners have done everything legally/illegally we will get a Abogado to look at the contract armed with these facts.


Whether your landlord pays tax on the rent or not has nothing to do with the legality or otherwise of your rental contract. They are entirely separate issues. Do you really think Hacienda is going to mount an investigation into a Russian landlord??? Or that the police will be interested???
You've already been told that your eleven month contract s illegal and that you are unlikely to see your deposit. 
The best course would be to find another rental and ensure your contract is legal. 
As I said, put this one down to experience.


----------



## Flavos (Mar 6, 2014)

Yes agreed re the non resident Landlord from Russia but they might look at the lady who lives in Spain and who we gave €3000 in cash to , who drew up the contract and has power of attorney, who we now don't trust, we have taken onboard the advice and have said we will not be paying our last 2 months rent, she of course is mentioning solicitors etc thanks all re the Advice we shall speak to a solicitor and also the appropriate government department re our deposit etc.


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> Question for Snikpoh....after four years of invalid eleven month contracts I suggested to our landlord, with whom we have a good, friendly relationship, both parties being well aware of the advantages of this, that we should draw up a legally valid contract for three years plus a further two years with an increase in rent as per inflation. I wrote it and omitted the clause relating to the landlord having the right to terminate the contract at the end of the due date. As the contract now stands, it states renewal if both parties agree.
> We're considering that after December 31st 2016 when the three years is up, we might like to stay for a further two years in this unfurnished property.
> Can our wishes as tenants since early 2009 over-ride those of our landlord should he wish not to renew?
> I don't think he will want to lose us as tenants, in fact we think he would lie down in front of the Pickfords truck to stop us moving out, but I'd like to know what rights we have.
> He is Austrian, lives in Austria, has another property here he uses when he visits.


Well, I think they would be within their rights to refuse to renew it.

However as you say, and I certainly agree from what you've said, I wouldn't loose any sleep over it - he seems a decent chap.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Flavos said:


> Yes agreed re the non resident Landlord from Russia but they might look at the lady who lives in Spain and who we gave €3000 in cash to , who drew up the contract and has power of attorney, who we now don't trust, we have taken onboard the advice and have said we will not be paying our last 2 months rent, she of course is mentioning solicitors etc thanks all re the Advice we shall speak to a solicitor and also the appropriate government department re our deposit etc.


Bear in mind that in withholding the rent you are then the guilty party. Hopefully you have not stated your intention to do that in writing or to anybody, really. When we withheld rent, knowing we wouldn't get our deposit back, we didn't announce that fact.....We just didn't pay and declined all contact with the landlord and his agent. We simply didn't answer phone calls when the rent was due and wasn't paid. When we were ready to move out we left the keys in the apartment and shut the door on them.
We did find the side window of our Discovery smashed, though...
No point in hoping the government or police will do anything to help you get your money back, I'm afraid.


----------



## Flavos (Mar 6, 2014)

Just an update re getting our deposit back, we lodged our last 2 months rent with the introducing agent ( the wonderful Jo Ivory from sunset villas Javea) who made sure everything was fair and above board, so we got our deposit back.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Flavos said:


> Just an update re getting our deposit back, we lodged our last 2 months rent with the introducing agent ( the wonderful Jo Ivory from sunset villas Javea) who made sure everything was fair and above board, so we got our deposit back.


Jo is one of the very few I would trust with my deposit in Jávea.... 

which is pretty sad really, considering how many agents there are


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

snikpoh said:


> Well, I think they would be within their rights to refuse to renew it.
> 
> However as you say, and I certainly agree from what you've said, I wouldn't loose any sleep over it - he seems a decent chap.


He practically begged us to stay...we are here for as long as we like...


To the OP...I'm being a bit dim, perhaps. but don't understand.. you got your deposit back from the Russians??


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

The simple answer to all these rental agreement questions is don't rent - buy. You are then your own landlord. Quite why so many insist that one should rent not buy when it opens up so many cans of worms, beats me. Pay cash when you buy and you're not even subject to the whims of the mortgage company. However do proper research so that you know what you are buying and where.


----------



## Flavos (Mar 6, 2014)

We asked the Landlords to bring the 3k from Russia and lodge it with the estate agents, or we would lodge our last 2 months rent with the estate agent (3k) the latter is what happened.


----------



## xgarb (May 6, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> Pay cash when you buy and you're not even subject to the whims of the mortgage company.


And pay 15% of the purchase price in taxes and charges.. never to be seen again if you find you made a mistake and you don't like where you have bought.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

xgarb said:


> And pay 15% of the purchase price in taxes and charges.. never to be seen again *if you find you made a mistake and you don't like where you have bought*.


That is why I said do your research properly.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Flavos said:


> We asked the Landlords to bring the 3k from Russia and lodge it with the estate agents, or we would lodge our last 2 months rent with the estate agent (3k) the latter is what happened.


So you didn't get your deposit back, then....


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> The simple answer to all these rental agreement questions is don't rent - buy. You are then your own landlord. Quite why so many insist that one should rent not buy when it opens up so many cans of worms, beats me. Pay cash when you buy and you're not even subject to the whims of the mortgage company. However do proper research so that you know what you are buying and where.


Nonsense, Baldy. It's a choice and for some a better choice. The interest on the money we have invested from sale of our properties pays our rent...no repairs, good landlord, no problems.
No amount of research can stop the neighbours from hell moving next door or a puti club or worse opening near you five years after you buy.
Not everyone wants to end their days with a pile of Spanish bricks and mortar round their necks like a noose.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> That is why I said do your research properly.


Thinkng about it, though, any 'research' you do will be very limited and can relate only to the past and present of the property you are considering.
You have little if any idea what the future will bring and the future is where you will be living.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Nonsense, Baldy. It's a choice and for some a better choice. The interest on the money we have invested from sale of our properties pays our rent...no repairs, good landlord, no problems.
> No amount of research can stop the neighbours from hell moving next door or a puti club or worse opening near you five years after you buy.
> Not everyone wants to end their days with a pile of Spanish bricks and mortar round their necks like a noose.


We will always disagree - MRY you made the right choice (for you) and found a good landlord and the right property, we made the right choice and bought, outright, a house in the right location that suits us perfectly. 

There are those who are quite happy to be giving several thousand Euros to a landlord every year and there are those of us who prefer to have something of our own from which we can't be turfed out, nor is dependent upon some scrooge landlord whose priorities are more to collecting the rent than ensuring maintenance is up to date, and who prefers to have frustrated tenants fix minor (or even major) problems with the property out of desperation, for free.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> We will always disagree - MRY you made the right choice (for you) and found a good landlord and the right property, we made the right choice and bought, outright, a house in the right location that suits us perfectly.
> 
> There are those who are quite happy to be giving several thousand Euros to a landlord every year and there are those of us who prefer to have something of our own from which we can't be turfed out, nor is dependent upon some scrooge landlord whose priorities are more to collecting the rent than ensuring maintenance is up to date, and who prefers to have frustrated tenants fix minor (or even major) problems with the property out of desperation, for free.


The trouble is, Baldy, that you see only one side. Your second paragraph is biased...but giving thousands of euros to a landlord can be balanced against giving the same if not more to a bank or finance company.
No- one with a mortgage 'owns' their home until the last instalment is paid. Neither can 'owners' do what they like with their property. i wasn't allowedto have UPV windows on my cottage, not that I wanted to, I preferred wooden frames.
I've been home owner, landlord and now tenant and have never been happier!


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> The trouble is, Baldy, that you see only one side. Your second paragraph is biased...but giving thousands of euros to a landlord can be balanced against giving the same if not more to a bank or finance company.
> No- one with a mortgage 'owns' their home until the last instalment is paid. Neither can 'owners' do what they like with their property. i wasn't allowedto have UPV windows on my cottage, not that I wanted to, I preferred wooden frames.
> I've been home owner, landlord and now tenant and have never been happier!


I've been all those as well but now I am a home owner with no mortgage to find each month and the weight off one's shoulders is great. OK I am responsible for the maintenance which is only right but, then, if the house was on a mortgage I would still have that responsibility. 

We are progressively changing our green painted wooden windows with green UPVC (with built-in persianas) because they don't admit draughts nor rain and one doesn't have to hope that the persianas will not be somewhere up the street when there are high winds. It also enables us to live within the bounds of one UK OAP (no rent and no mortgage!)


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Although research matters, as mrypg9 says, there are so many variables and unforeseen circumstances, situations and emotions. Put that with cost and tribulations of buying/selling and imo it's safer to rent initially until you know. So I simply see renting for a few months as the ultimate research.

Jo xxx

Sent from my D5803 using Expat Forum


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

jojo said:


> Although research matters, as mrypg9 says, there are so many variables and unforeseen circumstances, situations and emotions. Put that with cost and tribulations of buying/selling and imo it's safer to rent initially until you know. *So I simply see renting for a few months as the ultimate research.
> *
> Jo xxx
> 
> Sent from my D5803 using Expat Forum


Maybe you are right, but what about the long-term? The money you pay out renting for more than a couple of months could go towards buying your own place.


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

baldilocks said:


> Maybe you are right, but what about the long-term? The money you pay out renting for more than a couple of months could go towards buying your own place.


True and I only recommend renting initially. That said, you could look at the overall sums. For example, the cost of a house = 100, 000€. How many months rent would that cover?? Will you need that capital sum ever?? And renting generally means you don't have the responsibilities that go with ownership?? 

Jo xxxx

Sent from my D5803 using Expat Forum


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

jojo said:


> True and I only recommend renting initially. That said, you could look at the overall sums. For example, the cost of a house = 100, 000€. How many months rent would that cover?? Will you need that capital sum ever?? And renting generally means you don't have the responsibilities that go with ownership??
> 
> Jo xxxx
> 
> Sent from my D5803 using Expat Forum


About 16½ years, assuming the rent does not increase and assuming that the landlord doesn't want the place back.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Maybe you are right, but what about the long-term? The money you pay out renting for more than a couple of months could go towards buying your own place.


Assuming you want 'your own place'. 
Money paid in interest, money for a landlord....both for services rendered.
We Brits have an obsession with home ownership. I remember reading a paper years ago, published by some think- tank or other, about how this obsession was actually hindering economic progress. Not only does home ownership restrict mobility, important in today's jobs market, the fact that Brits tend to regard their home as their pension pot means that a source of saving in the form of mortgage repayments remains static whereas if that money were invested in the market it would have a more dynamic effect on national econmic growth and hence individual security. It would also provide a source of income in retirement, something bricks and mortar can do only in a limited way, as a result of downsizing.
All that's required to make renting a safe option is laws that regulate rental prices and safeguard landlords' and tenants' rights plus a supply of affordable rental properties. Not rocket science, more a matter of political will.
One of the reasons for the growth of the German and Dutch economies is the understanding that renting is as good an option - perhaps a better one - than buying.


----------



## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

It is a fascinating debate, rent v buy

You can argue the economics of it until the cows come home bottom line is it's such an individual choice. Many like the idea of not being tied to a property whilst others simply don't feel the place is a proper home if it's really someone else's 

We have flip flopped continuously between the two options but eventually my wife will decide on what option we have agreed

May I be devils advocate and suggest some who opt for renting option are maybe showing that they are either consciously or subconsciously not as committed to a permanent move?


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Rabbitcat said:


> It is a fascinating debate, rent v buy
> 
> You can argue the economics of it until the cows come home bottom line is it's such an individual choice. Many like the idea of not being tied to a property whilst others simply don't feel the place is a proper home if it's really someone else's
> 
> ...


I tried that one on a previous thread about three years ago but, like climate change, there are those who can't, or won't, see that.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Rabbitcat said:


> It is a fascinating debate, rent v buy
> 
> You can argue the economics of it until the cows come home bottom line is it's such an individual choice. Many like the idea of not being tied to a property whilst others simply don't feel the place is a proper home if it's really someone else's
> 
> ...





baldilocks said:


> I tried that one on a previous thread about three years ago but, like climate change, there are those who can't, or won't, see that.




Our first year was a 'suck it & see', largely because of the kids - which is why we rented at that time.

12 years on we're still renting, but you wouldn't find anyone more committed to staying than me. I'm glad we've rented, because we've had freedom to move as our situation changed (schools, increase & decrease in our numbers etc. ) 

I doubt I'll buy now - though once both daughters have moved out I _might_ if the perfect 2 bed property in the right spot came on the market.

On the other hand I know many many who no longer want to be here for various reasons & are stuck because they can't sell, or who have simply left & handed the keys back to the bank under the misguided impression that they would no longer have a debt


----------



## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Don't doubt for a second many do feel that way. It can be great to have such flexibility.

Others may feel even putting money into proving a home, decorating, additions etc aren't worthwhile if it's not your property


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Rabbitcat said:


> .
> 
> Others may feel even putting money into proving a home, decorating, additions etc aren't worthwhile if it's not your property


Don't agree. Wherever I live, I expect it to be to my taste and standards. Our landlord wouldn't care if we painted the bedroom walls black with mirrored ceiling....he'd be pleased....
Not that I'm into that kind of thing (or was), just making the point


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Rabbitcat said:


> May I be devils advocate and suggest some who opt for renting option are maybe showing that they are either consciously or subconsciously not as committed to a permanent move?


No. Not in our case. We don't have any UK property, this is our permanent home although when we can't make it up the stairs we'll move to a smaller property.
In any case, it's no crime to find that Spain isn't for you. After three years we decided Prague wasn't for us. Thank f*** we didn't listen to our friends who said 'Why pay money to a landlord? Buy!'


----------



## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Agree Mrypg, it's simply so individual it's impossible to say which ways right as there simp,y isn't a one size fits all

I am luckier than many in that even after I make my mind up on what I prefer my wife will be able to tell me what I actually prefer


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Rabbitcat said:


> *I am luckier than many in that even after I make my mind up on what I prefer my wife will be able to tell me what I actually prefer*


I know that feeling.


----------

