# Living in an Independent Catalonia



## Ifn (Jan 29, 2017)

I've been planning to live in Spain for over a year. Selling my apartment now and getting the documents together will be the last step. Yesterday I read that Catalonia will hold a vote for independence in October. 
I'm wondering if folks who live there have any concerns about this. Since my plan is to live in Barcelona, I'd expect a lot of demonstrations or more in October. 
Also, if they vote and are allowed independence from Spain, what will that mean for expat?
This is particularly addressed to people who live there now. What's the feeling?


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

I think Catalonia will be for you a lot better option than live in Spain, I don't want to say more because some people will say that I am spreading spam here.
I hope the spanish government don't send the army and tanks here


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Ifn said:


> I've been planning to live in Spain for over a year. Selling my apartment now and getting the documents together will be the last step. Yesterday I read that Catalonia will hold a vote for independence in October.
> I'm wondering if folks who live there have any concerns about this. Since my plan is to live in Barcelona, I'd expect a lot of demonstrations or more in October.
> Also, if they vote and are allowed independence from Spain, what will that mean for expat?
> This is particularly addressed to people who live there now. What's the feeling?


I'm sure there will be loads of demonstrations. The vote, if it goes ahead, will not actually be legal. There has already been one and action was taken against the politicians who led it. It seems that independence is not likely in the near future although it is a hot topic. I don't think independence itself raises any questions at the moment for expats/ immigrants, whatever you want to call yourself. Living in the politics of it all may though. Personally I wouldn't want to live in Barcelona now, nor in Catalonia - Spain's a big country and I'd look elsewhere.


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## Ifn (Jan 29, 2017)

Thanks. I really love that region and I guess the only other city that I'd consider (I am a city person) would be Madrid. But as an artist I really wish I could stick with Barcelona. Would love to hear from other people who live there


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## Ifn (Jan 29, 2017)

Thanks for your opinion. Not sure I agree since, as a USA citizen, I have enough to deal with. But, yes I am worried about the army and tanks part.


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## BMC77 (Aug 15, 2009)

Ifn said:


> Thanks. I really love that region and I guess the only other city that I'd consider (I am a city person) would be Madrid. But as an artist I really wish I could stick with Barcelona. Would love to hear from other people who live there


I've been in Barcelona for two years, and before that I was in Madrid for three years. After all this time, I can definitely say that I prefer Madrid to Barcelona - the people are friendlier and more accepting of foreigners, rents are a little cheaper, and the city is just easier to live in.

In Barcelona, you will struggle to avoid the issue of Catalan independence. Everyone has an opinion, and everyone thinks their opinion is right. There have been countless demonstrations, and now the promise of a referendum in October, despite them not having the mandate to do so. This may see Rajoy's threat to send in tanks coming true, which is not something I would be happy about. 

Another consideration is the backlash against tourists/foreigners (not everyone can tell the difference). There's been a marked rise in anti-tourist/anti-foreigner feelings - some of the graffiti that's appeared in the city recently is horrendous - mainly due to the belief that Barcelona is now a "theme park for tourists", something you will have to get used to hearing if you live here. The huge numbers of tourists have meant that many apartments are being rented via AirBnB for extortionate sums, which has pushed monthly rental prices up for the people who live here. There are not enough apartments for residents, meaning that those with places to rent can charge pretty much whatever they want. It's now at the point where it's common to see a room in a shared apartment going for the same price as a small one-bed apartment in Madrid, or a three-bed 100 sq m apartment in Valencia!

Despite all this, I don't regret coming to Barcelona because, like many people, it was an itch that needed to be scratched. However, I have realised that it's not a city for long-term living. That's why this year will be my last, both in Barcelona and, for that matter, in Spain.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

BMC77 said:


> I've been in Barcelona for two years, and before that I was in Madrid for three years. After all this time, I can definitely say that I prefer Madrid to Barcelona - the people are friendlier and more accepting of foreigners, rents are a little cheaper, and the city is just easier to live in.
> 
> In Barcelona, you will struggle to avoid the issue of Catalan independence. Everyone has an opinion, and everyone thinks their opinion is right. There have been countless demonstrations, and now the promise of a referendum in October, despite them not having the mandate to do so. This may see Rajoy's threat to send in tanks coming true, which is not something I would be happy about.
> 
> ...


This is pretty much what I was trying to say but you have said it in a more coherent way. I didn't realize that Rajoy had actually mentioned sending tanks in. What a silly thing to say, although I suppose he is forced to make strong statements - one of those situations where whatever you say is too soft/ provocative/ weak/ ambivalent for someone somewhere....


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## Blanco53 (Mar 6, 2017)

Ifn said:


> Thanks. I really love that region and I guess the only other city that I'd consider (I am a city person) would be Madrid. But as an artist I really wish I could stick with Barcelona. Would love to hear from other people who live there


I am intrigued to know why you would not consider Valencia or Sevilla? In my opinion far more attractive cities than Barcelona.


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## Ifn (Jan 29, 2017)

Blanco53 said:


> I am intrigued to know why you would not consider Valencia or Sevilla? In my opinion far more attractive cities than Barcelona.


Because, I have been in both cities. Seville is beautiful and I love it, but it's super hot. I know, I know,so are Madrid and Barcelona bur they cool off quicker. Also Seville is kind of small. As for Valencia, well its just not for me although I have friends there. Also one of my primary reasons for going is my interest in Romanesque art, which means I want to live in the North, with access to Romanesque architecture and good museums. I have gone back and forth in my head about living in a smaller city or even a town vs. Bigger cites. But the cities won out. Thanks.


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## Ifn (Jan 29, 2017)

BMC77 said:


> I've been in Barcelona for two years, and before that I was in Madrid for three years. After all this time, I can definitely say that I prefer Madrid to Barcelona - the people are friendlier and more accepting of foreigners, rents are a little cheaper, and the city is just easier to live in.
> 
> In Barcelona, you will struggle to avoid the issue of Catalan independence. Everyone has an opinion, and everyone thinks their opinion is right. There have been countless demonstrations, and now the promise of a referendum in October, despite them not having the mandate to do so. This may see Rajoy's threat to send in tanks coming true, which is not something I would be happy about.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your candid opinion. You are saying the very things that worry me. But I do love Spain


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Barcelona has always been a politically volatile city, right back to medieval times. In the 2nd Republic it was controlled by anarchists and it was a primary centre of resistance against the fascist uprising which started the Spanish Civil War, leading to heavy reprisals. The protests and police retaliations associated with independence movement is nothing compared to what went on then. 

Surely though, unless you live right in the centre, you're unlikely to be caught up in street protests?


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## John98103 (Nov 12, 2015)

Why wouldn't you want to live in Barcelona?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Ifn said:


> Because, I have been in both cities. Seville is beautiful and I love it, but it's super hot. I know, I know,so are Madrid and Barcelona bur they cool off quicker. Also Seville is kind of small. As for Valencia, well its just not for me although I have friends there. Also one of my primary reasons for going is my interest in Romanesque art, which means I want to live in the North, with access to Romanesque architecture and good museums. I have gone back and forth in my head about living in a smaller city or even a town vs. Bigger cites. But the cities won out. Thanks.


Then look at Bilbao. It's much more cosmopolitan now that the Guggenheim is there. It hasn't lost it's Basque flavour at all though. The ETA situation has calmed down a lot and although it's still bubbling away under the surface you can live totally unaware of it in Bilbao itself, which is not the case with the independence issue in Barcelona. It's a very liveable city as well with a lot of cultural acts, although not so many as Barcelona And there are as you say many "románico" sites in the north.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Ifn said:


> Because, I have been in both cities. Seville is beautiful and I love it, but it's super hot. I know, I know,so are Madrid and Barcelona bur they cool off quicker. Also Seville is kind of small. As for Valencia, well its just not for me although I have friends there. Also one of my primary reasons for going is my interest in Romanesque art, which means I want to live in the North, with access to Romanesque architecture and good museums. I have gone back and forth in my head about living in a smaller city or even a town vs. Bigger cites. But the cities won out. Thanks.


As you can see there are many people here that don't understand why you want to live in Barcelona, even I think some of they don't like too much,they say we want to make one "ilegal" referendum,haha, ilegal law that has been created for keep the catalan slave of Spain, well wait 112 days and you will see what happend, we don't want you have problems with the spanish tanks like the american brigade Lincoln in 1936, the descendants of fascist General Franco remain in the power and nobody know how will be their reaction against the independence of Catalonia and loose more than the 20% of the spanish GDP.


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## BMC77 (Aug 15, 2009)

Ifn said:


> But I do love Spain


Well don't say that in Barcelona! As the Catalans will tell you, "Catalunya is NOT Spain".


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## BMC77 (Aug 15, 2009)

mickbcn said:


> *As you can see there are many people here that don't understand why you want to live in Barcelona, even I think some of they don't like too much,*they say we want to make one "ilegal" referendum,haha, ilegal law that has been created for keep the catalan slave of Spain, well wait 112 days and you will see what happend, we don't want you have problems with the spanish tanks like the american brigade Lincoln in 1936, the descendants of fascist General Franco remain in the power and nobody know how will be their reaction against the independence of Catalonia and loose more than the 20% of the spanish GDP.


I DO understand why people want to live in Barcelona - it's a vibrant, cosmopolitan city with a rich heritage, and the coast and the mountains within easy reach - BUT I think anyone planning to move here should be aware that the sunny, lively, fun Barcelona they enjoyed on holidays is not necessarily the Barcelona they will encounter once they move here.

You can't argue with the fact that finding decent accommodation at a reasonable price is practically impossible. Or that there is an increasing backlash against tourists/foreigners. Or that there are constant public transport strikes that make getting to work a nightmare. Or that there are demonstrations about one thing or other every bloody month, be it rising rents, mass tourism, or Catalan independence... 

I had always wanted to live in Barcelona, but now, two years in, I've had enough. I'm sick of the constant metro strikes, the anti-foreigner sentiment, the struggle to make ends meet or find an affordable apartment, and I'm sick to the back teeth of hearing people argue about whether Catalunya should be independent or not. It is literally ALL people ever talk about! Despite all this, I'm not telling people not to come, I'm telling them to come with their eyes open. And in the meantime, I'm making plans to leave.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Because is not Spain!!! (well now is inside Spain but for a few few time) no longer than 2017.


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## BMC77 (Aug 15, 2009)

BMC77 said:


> ... and I'm sick to the back teeth of hearing people argue about whether Catalunya should be independent or not. It is literally ALL people ever talk about!





mickbcn said:


> Because is not Spain!!! (well now is inside Spain but for a few few time) no longer than 2017.


Case in point...


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## Ifn (Jan 29, 2017)

BMC77 said:


> Well don't say that in Barcelona! As the Catalans will tell you, "Catalunya is NOT Spain".


That's it in a nutshell, no?


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## Ifn (Jan 29, 2017)

BMC77 said:


> I DO understand why people want to live in Barcelona - it's a vibrant, cosmopolitan city with a rich heritage, and the coast and the mountains within easy reach - BUT I think anyone planning to move here should be aware that the sunny, lively, fun Barcelona they enjoyed on holidays is not necessarily the Barcelona they will encounter once they move here.........
> 
> I had always wanted to live in Barcelona, but now, two years in, I've had enough. I'm sick of the constant metro strikes, the anti-foreigner sentiment, the struggle to make ends meet or find an affordable apartment, and I'm sick to the back teeth of hearing people argue about whether Catalunya should be independent or not. It is literally ALL people ever talk about! Despite all this, I'm not telling people not to come, I'm telling them to come with their eyes open. And in the meantime, I'm making plans to leave.


I guess I really was hoping to hide out, stroll about and visit Romanesque sites. My own little nunnery where I could contemplate life and practice my Spanish. Haha. And Not be caught up in a big divisive moment in history. :fencing: 
As an American and a New Yorker I can deal with a lot, but I did want to take a bit of a break. I should add that this is only meant to be a year or so....not actually staying in Spain till death us do part. Still its a big step and I want to leave my options open. 
I really appreciate this community and how helpful you all are.


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## Ifn (Jan 29, 2017)

John98103 said:


> Why wouldn't you want to live in Barcelona?


Is that a trick question? I'm a bit worried about being "swept up in the tides of history". Dont ask me where that quote is from; it just popped into my head.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Ifn said:


> I guess I really was hoping to hide out, stroll about and visit Romanesque sites.


Why not try Segovia? Nothing momentous is likely to happen there, they speak beautiful clear Castellano and you don't have to stroll far to find a Roman site!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Why not try Segovia? Nothing momentous is likely to happen there, they speak beautiful clear Castellano and you don't have to stroll far to find a Roman site!


Unfortunately Segovia does not tick any of the boxes the OP wants...
Romanesque architecture = románica 
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arquitectura_rom%C3%A1nica_en_Espa%C3%B1a
and Segovia isn big enough I would have thought...
Save
Save​


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Unfortunately Segovia does not tick any of the boxes the OP wants...
> Romanesque architecture = románica
> https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arquitectura_rom%C3%A1nica_en_Espa%C3%B1a
> and Segovia isn big enough I would have thought...
> ...


You learn something every day.

But apparently Segovia has many good examples of Romanesque churches.

http://gadling.com/2011/07/20/madrid-day-trip-romanesque-churches-and-a-gothic-cathedral-in-s/


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## Michael Kelly (May 30, 2017)

Ifn said:


> I should add that this is only meant to be a year or so....


In that case go to Barcelona and enjoy it. War is not going to break out and rents are much cheaper than New York.


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## Blanco53 (Mar 6, 2017)

Michael Kelly said:


> In that case go to Barcelona and enjoy it. War is not going to break out and rents are much cheaper than New York.


Let's hope not. Disturbing reports about a reformed Terra Lliure rearing it's ugly head again. Hopefully, this is just idle press speculation.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

mickbcn said:


> As you can see there are many people here that don't understand why you want to live in Barcelona, even I think some of they don't like too much,they say we want to make one "ilegal" referendum,haha, ilegal law that has been created for keep the catalan slave of Spain, well wait 112 days and you will see what happend, we don't want you have problems with the spanish tanks like the american brigade Lincoln in 1936, the descendants of fascist General Franco remain in the power and nobody know how will be their reaction against the independence of Catalonia and loose more than the 20% of the spanish GDP.


It's all about the cash and not wanting to support the rest of lazy old Spain.

Pity it doesn't share a border with Russia. Then they could be sure of tanks if independent.

The centre has its sights and is in my opinion unrivalled in Europe when it comes to things to see and do. But it's a victim of its own success. It's packed all the time, the bars and restaurants in the tourist areas are absolutely awful, and it has a massive problem with crime.

Head to the suburbs and you have to deal with the attitude if you speak Castellano, and the painted-over signs of anything not in Catalan.


Dreadful place to live.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Horlics said:


> It's all about the cash and not wanting to support the rest of lazy old Spain.
> 
> Pity it doesn't share a border with Russia. Then they could be sure of tanks if independent.
> 
> ...


If Pujol and family hadn't made off with literally millions maybe Catalonia would really be in a position to stick two fingers up to the Spanish state as they wouldn't need to trade with Spain for years and years. However, the once revered Pujol did steal millions and do untold damage to the Catalans...


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## expat16 (Jun 11, 2016)

If it's only 1 year you could try different cities, like 6 months in Madrid and 6 in BCN. I gave Spain a try about 10 years ago and found it difficult to rent an apartment as with the strong pro-tenant laws some landlords want 6-month deposit and want to see contract etc.

If you are not a EU citizen I think it would be a lot of hassle to get the right documentation and a traditional apt rental just for one year. 

So I'd try airbnb or just renting a room, which would make it more flexible to try different cities anyway. 

Of course I don't know the particulars of your situation but just my 2 cents.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Blanco53 said:


> Let's hope not. Disturbing reports about a reformed Terra Lliure rearing it's ugly head again. Hopefully, this is just idle press speculation.


Terra Lliure only kill one person in his history,by accident, and they apologize to the family of his victims.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Horlics said:


> It's all about the cash and not wanting to support the rest of lazy old Spain.
> 
> Pity it doesn't share a border with Russia. Then they could be sure of tanks if independent.
> 
> ...


Turn off the spanish tv, is bad for your brain, you are spreading the intoxication of the spanish media, why you don't come to Catalonia ans see with your own eyes that all you are saying is lie, the vomiting spanish lies i can see that the spaniards have inoculate you the anticatalan virus common in Spain, why you dont talk with people who live here ( but not with the people who come here for one or 2 days and say that " I try to speak with they in spanish and they answer me in catalan" hahaha.)


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> If Pujol and family hadn't made off with literally millions maybe Catalonia would really be in a position to stick two fingers up to the Spanish state as they wouldn't need to trade with Spain for years and years. However, the once revered Pujol did steal millions and do untold damage to the Catalans...


Another tipical lie from the fascist spanish cavern, Pujol like Artur Mas and Xavier Trias don't steal one single euro despite the criminal minister of interior Fernandez Diaz and his chiefs of police Pino and other (i dont remember his name now), they say even the number of their acounts in Andorra and Liechtenstein,( this countries say that this numeration dont exist in theis banks)and all this newsappear 2 days before the catalan elections, is a shame what the spanish government do against the democratic will of the catalans, but unfortunately this news don't appear in the spanish media.


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## Blanco53 (Mar 6, 2017)

mickbcn said:


> Terra Lliure only kill one person in his history,by accident, and they apologize to the family of his victims.


A terrorist is a terrorist.......and an apologist is an apologist.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Blanco53 said:


> A terrorist is a terrorist.......and an apologist is an apologist.


Like the G.A.L.?


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

mickbcn said:


> Turn off the spanish tv, is bad for your brain, you are spreading the intoxication of the spanish media, why you don't come to Catalonia ans see with your own eyes that all you are saying is lie, the vomiting spanish lies i can see that the spaniards have inoculate you the anticatalan virus common in Spain, why you dont talk with people who live here ( but not with the people who come here for one or 2 days and say that " I try to speak with they in spanish and they answer me in catalan" hahaha.)


Mick,

Your obsession with the Spanish media is tiresome. Believe it or not, some people understand press bias and are informed enough to recognise it for what it is.


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## Blanco53 (Mar 6, 2017)

mickbcn said:


> Like the G.A.L.?


Of course......and you won't get me trying to justify their actions!!!!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mickbcn said:


> Another tipical lie from the fascist spanish cavern, Pujol like Artur Mas and Xavier Trias don't steal one single euro despite the criminal minister of interior Fernandez Diaz and his chiefs of police Pino and other (i dont remember his name now), they say even the number of their acounts in Andorra and Liechtenstein,( this countries say that this numeration dont exist in theis banks)and all this newsappear 2 days before the catalan elections, is a shame what the spanish government do against the democratic will of the catalans, but unfortunately this news don't appear in the spanish media.


I had some sympathy for you until now, because I believe Madrid should allow the Catalans a legitimate referendum. But you seem to be seriously suggesting that the Pujol family didn't embezzle millions in tax fraud and then launder their fortune in tax havens like Andorra. Where did that €70 million come from then? He even admitted doing it! I think you need a reality check!


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## Ifn (Jan 29, 2017)

Alcalaina said:


> Why not try Segovia? Nothing momentous is likely to happen there, they speak beautiful clear Castellano and you don't have to stroll far to find a Roman site!


Thanks Alcalaina. Actually, that was Romanesque...medieval art. But you know that's not a bad idea. As a matter of fact, Segovia is full of Romanesque art and architecture. And a very short ride to Madrid. And it has roast lamb. Now the question for this New Yorker...just how sleepy is it?


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## Ifn (Jan 29, 2017)

Alcalaina said:


> You learn something every day.
> 
> But apparently Segovia has many good examples of Romanesque churches.
> 
> Madrid day trip: Romanesque churches and a Gothic cathedral in Segovia - Gadling


Yes it does. Its not a bad idea since its pretty close to Madrid. Thanks for another option.


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## Ifn (Jan 29, 2017)

Michael Kelly said:


> In that case go to Barcelona and enjoy it. War is not going to break out and rents are much cheaper than New York.


I see that you live in Barcelona. No, hopefully war wont beak out but how do you find the mood? I mean about foreigners and independence.


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## Ifn (Jan 29, 2017)

expat16 said:


> If it's only 1 year you could try different cities, like 6 months in Madrid and 6 in BCN. I gave Spain a try about 10 years ago and found it difficult to rent an apartment as with the strong pro-tenant laws some landlords want 6-month deposit and want to see contract etc.
> 
> If you are not a EU citizen I think it would be a lot of hassle to get the right documentation and a traditional apt rental just for one year.
> 
> ...


You're right it is a big hassle to get the documentation. But the way the USA is acting right now :spider:Id rather have all my paperwork in order. And you (meaning me) never know...i might decide to stay longer. 
Good suggestion, about moving around. I'll consider it if I can stream line my art supplies...haha, I'm an artist.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> I had some sympathy for you until now, because I believe Madrid should allow the Catalans a legitimate referendum. But you seem to be seriously suggesting that the Pujol family didn't embezzle millions in tax fraud and then launder their fortune in tax havens like Andorra. Where did that €70 million come from then? He even admitted doing it! I think you need a reality check!


I was going to ask Mick the same - just where did all these millions come from then? I'm sure there are many lies bandied about by both sides, but Pujol and not just Pujol but his whole family, are crooks just like many other Spanish politicians


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Pujol and his family is nothing compared the members of PP with 900 investigated and a lot in prison, they steal public money however Pujol (father) only private money, this is very different. (and I dont mind if they are guilty they must go to prison, for me no problem, but you never can compare the corruption in the spanish government or in Catalonia, despite the spanish propaganda.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Ifn said:


> You're right it is a big hassle to get the documentation. But the way the USA is acting right now :spider:Id rather have all my paperwork in order. And you (meaning me) never know...i might decide to stay longer.
> Good suggestion, about moving around. I'll consider it if I can stream line my art supplies...haha, I'm an artist.[/QUOT
> You must go to visit Poblet and Santes Creus


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Ifn said:


> You're right it is a big hassle to get the documentation. But the way the USA is acting right now :spider:Id rather have all my paperwork in order. And you (meaning me) never know...i might decide to stay longer.
> Good suggestion, about moving around. I'll consider it if I can stream line my art supplies...haha, I'm an artist.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Ifn said:


> You're right it is a big hassle to get the documentation. But the way the USA is acting right now :spider:Id rather have all my paperwork in order. And you (meaning me) never know...i might decide to stay longer.
> Good suggestion, about moving around. I'll consider it if I can stream line my art supplies...haha, I'm an artist.


Yesterday morning in Barcelona rally for the referendum!!!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mickbcn said:


> Pujol and his family is nothing compared the members of PP with 900 investigated and a lot in prison, they steal public money however Pujol (father) only private money, this is very different. (and I dont mind if they are guilty they must go to prison, for me no problem, but you never can compare the corruption in the spanish government or in Catalonia, despite the spanish propaganda.


I don't think need to be compared. They are the same. Robbery is robbery. They should be put in the same sack and shaken around together. I bet they'd love that.
Mick, I am sure you know a lot more about the Catalan situation than a bunch of Guiris who (in my case) don't even live there (I lived in Catalonia for a while many years ago), but situations are never as black and white as you paint them. Artur Mas, Pujol, and Puigdemont are not Good and Sanchez, Iglesias and Sanchez Bad. 
Politics needs a cool head, not people who whip their community into a frenzy of independence


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## BMC77 (Aug 15, 2009)

Horlics said:


> The centre has its sights and is in my opinion unrivalled in Europe when it comes to things to see and do. But it's a victim of its own success. It's packed all the time, the bars and restaurants in the tourist areas are absolutely awful, and it has a massive problem with crime.
> 
> Head to the suburbs and you have to deal with the attitude if you speak Castellano, and the painted-over signs of anything not in Catalan.





mickbcn said:


> Turn off the spanish tv, is bad for your brain, *you are spreading the intoxication of the spanish media, why you don't come to Catalonia ans see with your own eyes that all you are saying is lie, the vomiting spanish lies i can see that the spaniards have inoculate you the anticatalan virus common in Spain, why you dont talk with people who live here* ( but not with the people who come here for one or 2 days and say that " I try to speak with they in spanish and they answer me in catalan" hahaha.)


I don't watch Spanish TV or read Spanish news. I LIVE here, and not just for "one or 2 days" - I've been here for almost two years and I agree with what Horlics said. Barcelona IS packed all the time - there's a population of 1.6 million people, and last year there were 32 million visitors to the city! The city centre is a nightmare, and yes, the majority of the bars and restaurants there are awful and overpriced. While I have never had any problems with crime, almost everyone I know has been pickpocketed or had phones stolen from their hands. Re. the language, even in the city centre, I have had some people refuse to speak Castellano to me, and insist on sticking with Catalan. God, there are restaurants that have a menu in Catalan or English but NOT Castellano. For a city in Spain - and yes, Barcelona IS part of Spain - I find that unbelievable but sadly typical of the independentists. But no doubt you will accuse me of "spreading lies told by the Spanish media" as well...

You mention an "anti-Catalan virus". Interestingly, I never got that feeling from Madrileños. But every Catalan independentist I meet is positively vitriolic when speaking about people from the rest of Spain. There is nothing more boring than hearing Catalans bang on _ad nauseum_ about how everything is the fault of Madrid/Spain/the Spanish Government/the Spanish media, etc., and how things are going to change once Catalunya becomes independent. But just like Brexiteers in the UK, I wonder who you'll blame for your problems when you eventually get your way...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

BMC77 said:


> I don't watch Spanish TV or read Spanish news. I LIVE here, and not just for "one or 2 days" - I've been here for almost two years and I agree with what Horlics said. Barcelona IS packed all the time - there's a population of 1.6 million people, and last year there were 32 million visitors to the city! The city centre is a nightmare, and yes, the majority of the bars and restaurants there are awful and overpriced. While I have never had any problems with crime, almost everyone I know has been pickpocketed or had phones stolen from their hands. Re. the language, even in the city centre, I have had some people refuse to speak Castellano to me, and insist on sticking with Catalan. God, there are restaurants that have a menu in Catalan or English but NOT Castellano. For a city in Spain - and yes, Barcelona IS part of Spain - I find that unbelievable but sadly typical of the independentists. But no doubt you will accuse me of "spreading lies told by the Spanish media" as well...
> 
> You mention an "anti-Catalan virus". Interestingly, I never got that feeling from Madrileños. But every Catalan independentist I meet is positively vitriolic when speaking about people from the rest of Spain. There is nothing more boring than hearing Catalans bang on _ad nauseum_ about how everything is the fault of Madrid/Spain/the Spanish Government/the Spanish media, etc., and how things are going to change once Catalunya becomes independent. But just like Brexiteers in the UK, I wonder who you'll blame for your problems when you eventually get your way...


Agree, agree, agree


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

BMC77 said:


> I don't watch Spanish TV or read Spanish news. I LIVE here, and not just for "one or 2 days" - I've been here for almost two years and I agree with what Horlics said. Barcelona IS packed all the time - there's a population of 1.6 million people, and last year there were 32 million visitors to the city! The city centre is a nightmare, and yes, the majority of the bars and restaurants there are awful and overpriced. While I have never had any problems with crime, almost everyone I know has been pickpocketed or had phones stolen from their hands. Re. the language, even in the city centre, I have had some people refuse to speak Castellano to me, and insist on sticking with Catalan. God, there are restaurants that have a menu in Catalan or English but NOT Castellano. For a city in Spain - and yes, Barcelona IS part of Spain - I find that unbelievable but sadly typical of the independentists. But no doubt you will accuse me of "spreading lies told by the Spanish media" as well...
> 
> You mention an "anti-Catalan virus". Interestingly, I never got that feeling from Madrileños. But every Catalan independentist I meet is positively vitriolic when speaking about people from the rest of Spain. There is nothing more boring than hearing Catalans bang on _ad nauseum_ about how everything is the fault of Madrid/Spain/the Spanish Government/the Spanish media, etc., and how things are going to change once Catalunya becomes independent. But just like Brexiteers in the UK, I wonder who you'll blame for your problems when you eventually get your way...


In Barcelona and Catalonia there are thousands of americans and british living here very happy i know some of them with very different opinion of you about catalan people." I have had some people refuse to speak Castellano to me," hehe, tipical discurse of the spaniards but false like one coin of 3 euro.


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## Ifn (Jan 29, 2017)

mickbcn said:


> Yesterday morning in Barcelona rally for the referendum!!!
> https://youtu.be/5NtIpATL8AU


How peaceful


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## Michael Kelly (May 30, 2017)

Ifn said:


> I see that you live in Barcelona. No, hopefully war wont beak out but how do you find the mood? I mean about foreigners and independence.


People are open to foreigners. Excessive tourism is a concern but the real problem here is political inability to manage the growth in tourism. 
Some people are convinced that independence is going to happen but I doubt it. Pro independence feeling in the city is much weaker than rural Catalonia.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Hey Mick,

I've mentioned a couple of times that the clamour for independence might not be so great if you happened to be located elsewhere in Europe, like on the border of Russia, for example. I am not sure what plans an independent Calatonia has for an army, air force and navy, but I doubt you could muster anything to complete with Putin's toys. Possibly you are planning to join NATO in return for offering up 2% of 20% of Spain's GDP. Good luck with that.

But anyway, you don't share a border with Russia so lets move from the hypothetical to the real world. Would you feel 100% secure being a tiny independent country in a Europe in which the Union breaks down?

There are many people predicting the end of the EU. Remember, one driving factor behind the creation of the EU was to end the wars that had repeatedly broken out over the continent. I know it's hard to envisage in these times of peace, but look back 70 years and then imagine what might come about in another 70 years if the wrong decisions are made today.


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## Michael Kelly (May 30, 2017)

An independent Catalonia would not have any armed forces as far as I am aware.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Michael Kelly said:


> An independent Catalonia would not have any armed forces as far as I am aware.


Some people here don't want one Army in Catalonia , and other want one small but strong army, the experience say that we need one small but strong army for not repeat the same history from 300 years ago.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Michael Kelly said:


> People are open to foreigners. Excessive tourism is a concern but the real problem here is political inability to manage the growth in tourism.
> Some people are convinced that independence is going to happen but I doubt it. Pro independence feeling in the city is much weaker than rural Catalonia.


Some people in Barcelona don't want more tourists because the prices of the flats are growing and growing this is a big problem for the workers and normal people,but for other side the tourists give a lot of money to the city and work.
Some people put graffitis in the walls against the tourists , some of this people is working for other spanish or european cities that hate Barcelona have this quantity of tourists,and some even send to Barcelona groups of pickpockets, Even the spanish government pay the ticket of a bus or train for morocan or african groups who arrive to the south border in Melilla or Canary Islands,(catalan autorities have evidences).


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> I had some sympathy for you until now, because I believe Madrid should allow the Catalans a legitimate referendum. But you seem to be seriously suggesting that the Pujol family didn't embezzle millions in tax fraud and then launder their fortune in tax havens like Andorra. Where did that €70 million come from then? He even admitted doing it! I think you need a reality check!


Until today the spanish justice don't have evidences , all this information was false created by the minister Fernandez Diaz and the chiefs of police Pino and other , this was created with the name Operacion Cataluña,ant the newspaper El Mundo spread this false news ,take a look in the spanish newspaper even they telling this real history. is in spanish sorry.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> I had some sympathy for you until now, because I believe Madrid should allow the Catalans a legitimate referendum. But you seem to be seriously suggesting that the Pujol family didn't embezzle millions in tax fraud and then launder their fortune in tax havens like Andorra. Where did that €70 million come from then? He even admitted doing it! I think you need a reality check!


Until today the spanish justice don't have evidences , all this information was false created by the minister Fernandez Diaz and the chiefs of police Pino and other , this was created with the name Operacion Cataluña,ant the newspaper El Mundo spread this false news ,take a look in the spanish newspaper even they telling this real history. is in spanish sorry.
AsÃ­ fue la OperaciÃ³n Catalunya de la â€˜brigada polÃ­ticaâ€™ de Interior que el ministro FernÃ¡ndez DÃ­az niega | PÃºblico


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> I had some sympathy for you until now, because I believe Madrid should allow the Catalans a legitimate referendum. But you seem to be seriously suggesting that the Pujol family didn't embezzle millions in tax fraud and then launder their fortune in tax havens like Andorra. Where did that €70 million come from then? He even admitted doing it! I think you need a reality check!


Pujol (Father) is out of the politics since 2005,His wife and sons receive 500 millions of pesetas (3 millions of euros) in the beginning of the 80's from the Father of Jordi Pujol (Florenci Pujol) this money was in Andorra in acounts in name of the sons and wife of Jordi Pujol, not in his name, he explain why he never declare this money to spanish autorities, he was scared to broken his politic status, unfortunately my english is not good enough to explain you the complete history,but if you investigate in the link of the publico newspaper and other newspapers you can have one idea about this criminal spanish government of the PP party., today in the spanish parliament Pablo Iglesias talk a little about this history.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I was going to ask Mick the same - just where did all these millions come from then? I'm sure there are many lies bandied about by both sides, but Pujol and not just Pujol but his whole family, are crooks just like many other Spanish politicians


70 milions? hehe Eduardo Inda one day say 3000.000.000, they are desperate to attack the independentist. but never give one single evidence, and when give evidences are false like the numbers of the acounts in banks in Andorra ans Liechtenstein from Artur Mas and Xavier Trias ( the formers president of the Generalitat de Catalunya and the major of Barcelona city,both numbers acounts was false as declare the banks.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't think need to be compared. They are the same. Robbery is robbery. They should be put in the same sack and shaken around together. I bet they'd love that.
> Mick, I am sure you know a lot more about the Catalan situation than a bunch of Guiris who (in my case) don't even live there (I lived in Catalonia for a while many years ago), but situations are never as black and white as you paint them. Artur Mas, Pujol, and Puigdemont are not Good and Sanchez, Iglesias and Sanchez Bad.
> Politics needs a cool head, not people who whip their community into a frenzy of independence


Carlos E. Bayo: ‘Among this mafia there are magistrates, prosecutors and the Spanish Prime Minister’ | VilaWeb


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Carlos E. Bayo: ‘Among this mafia there are magistrates, prosecutors and the Spanish Prime Minister’ | VilaWeb


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

VilaWeb - Diari digital líder en català. Última hora, notícies i opinió
and Stop !!!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mickbcn said:


> Until today the spanish justice don't have evidences , all this information was false created by the minister Fernandez Diaz and the chiefs of police Pino and other , this was created with the name Operacion Cataluña,ant the newspaper El Mundo spread this false news ,take a look in the spanish newspaper even they telling this real history. is in spanish sorry.
> AsÃ* fue la OperaciÃ³n Catalunya de la â€˜brigada polÃ*ticaâ€™ de Interior que el ministro FernÃ¡ndez DÃ*az niega | PÃºblico


Very interesting ... thanks for that.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

This is in english
VilaWeb - Diari digital líder en català. Última hora, notícies i opinió


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## Ifn (Jan 29, 2017)

mickbcn said:


> Some people in Barcelona don't want more tourists because the prices of the flats are growing and growing this is a big problem for the workers and normal people,but for other side the tourists give a lot of money to the city and work.
> Some people put graffitis in the walls against the tourists , some of this people is working for other spanish or european cities that hate Barcelona have this quantity of tourists,and some even send to Barcelona groups of pickpockets, Even the spanish government pay the ticket of a bus or train for morocan or african groups who arrive to the south border in Melilla or Canary Islands,(catalan autorities have evidences).


A similar problem in Venice. I wonder how they handle it. I was there a few years ago and it was a zoo!


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## Michael Kelly (May 30, 2017)

Ifn said:


> A similar problem in Venice. I wonder how they handle it. I was there a few years ago and it was a zoo!


I don't think that Barcelona should take Venice as an example.


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## GreenGreen88 (Apr 22, 2016)

Excuse me while I roll my eyes. 

Hehe Im just kidding. It ain't happening. The politicians who are egging it on are doing so for political purposes. They started the new independence push a few years ago when they were embroiled in political controversy because of a very long time leader in Catalunya named Jordi Pujol was finally being prosecuted for his corruption and the leader at the time was very closely connected to Pujol.

They've continued to use it as a political tool but it won't happen. Catalunya does not have the political right to separate from Spain. Don't worry.


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## GreenGreen88 (Apr 22, 2016)

I have to tell the OP that people like @Mickbcn are not the norm in Barcelona. Maybe outside the city, but definitely not in. 

Yes you will see demonstrations. They are always peaceful.

Yes you will see signs on people's balconies that complain about noise from tourists and rising rents because people are illegally putting their apartments on airbnb. However I have never seen a tourist treated badly in Barcelona because of this. In fact, quite the contrary, Ive seen residents treated rudely by tourists to their face. 

Yes a lot of Catalans want independence. No they will most likely not talk your ear off about it. Most Catalans I know have Spanish friends because--newsflash--Barcelona is a very cosmopolitan city and it is made up of A TON of Spanish people from other parts of Spain. Go to Tarragona, Reus, Girona if you want a city that isn't made up of Spaniards from the rest of Spain that is not Barcelona. My won't just bring up independence to anyone. They don't WANT to have that argument unless its brought up. There are also plenty of Catalans who don't even want to separate. 

Ive lived in Barcelona for 3 years. Ive never had a problem as a foreigner. Ive never had a problem with a Catalan over independence. Don't worry. If Barcelona is where you want to live, just do it. It is a big city like any other--meaning it is what you make of it.


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## GreenGreen88 (Apr 22, 2016)

Furthermore--I have never ever ever met or seen a Catalan defending Jordi Pujol and his crimes. Truly, that is a new level of delusion surrounding that debate.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

GreenGreen88 said:


> Excuse me while I roll my eyes.
> 
> Hehe Im just kidding. It ain't happening. The politicians who are egging it on are doing so for political purposes. They started the new independence push a few years ago when they were embroiled in political controversy because of a very long time leader in Catalunya named Jordi Pujol was finally being prosecuted for his corruption and the leader at the time was very closely connected to Pujol.
> 
> ...


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

GreenGreen88 said:


> Excuse me while I roll my eyes.
> 
> Hehe Im just kidding. It ain't happening. The politicians who are egging it on are doing so for political purposes. They started the new independence push a few years ago when they were embroiled in political controversy because of a very long time leader in Catalunya named Jordi Pujol was finally being prosecuted for his corruption and the leader at the time was very closely connected to Pujol.
> 
> ...


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

GreenGreen88 said:


> Furthermore--I have never ever ever met or seen a Catalan defending Jordi Pujol and his crimes. Truly, that is a new level of delusion surrounding that debate.


Spanish lies
AsÃ* fue la OperaciÃ³n Catalunya de la â€˜brigada polÃ*ticaâ€™ de Interior que el ministro FernÃ¡ndez DÃ*az niega | PÃºblico


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## GreenGreen88 (Apr 22, 2016)

Again, to the OP, Mick is not the average Catalan you will meet in Barcelona. It is a very cosmopolitan city mixed with people from all over Spain and all over the world. It is what you make it. Go into the barrios in the suburbs of the city or in a smaller city/town in the Catalunya and maybe you will meet more like him. However most in Barcelona want to keep the image as a meeting place for creative Europeans from all over the continent.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Maybe you are living in Barcelona but i think you are living in a spanish guetto ,there are a lot in Barcelona in this guettos are the people that appear each October 12th with the spanish flags (with the eagle),but in Barcelona there are thousand and hundred of thousand like me, the people that each 11th September are united for the independence, and we want to keep the image of a open country for people around the world as we do in centuries, we are not people with closed mind,despite your opinion that we don't have the right of the independence we will get it ,because all the peoples in the world have this right,(you are american , then you dont have the right of the independence? America never has been independent before and Catalonia yes ,with our own laws,and language, this mean that you have more right than me to be independent? hehe.


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## GreenGreen88 (Apr 22, 2016)

mickbcn said:


> Maybe you are living in Barcelona but i think you are living in a spanish guetto ,there are a lot in Barcelona in this guettos are the people that appear each October 12th with the spanish flags (with the eagle),but in Barcelona there are thousand and hundred of thousand like me, the people that each 11th September are united for the independence, and we want to keep the image of a open country for people around the world as we do in centuries, we are not people with closed mind,despite your opinion that we don't have the right of the independence we will get it ,because all the peoples in the world have this right,(you are american , then you dont have the right of the independence? America never has been independent before and Catalonia yes ,with our own laws,and language, this mean that you have more right than me to be independent? hehe.


I am not answering you anymore. You are getting into insane territory of conspiracy theories that are actually quite offensive. You are suggesting that Spaniards are somehow proud to wave the flag of Franco? As if the Francoist dictatorship ONLY hurt Catalans? As if millions of people around the country did not die and suffer trying to fight the fascists? You are becoming wholly offensive now and that I will not accept. Truly, you give your region, Catalonia a bad name. I have NEVER in my life met a Catalan like you. Every single Catalan I know has numerous Spanish friends who they would never disrespect in this disgusting way.


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## xgarb (May 6, 2011)

> european cities that hate Barcelona have this quantity of tourists,and some even send to Barcelona groups of pickpockets, Even the spanish government pay the ticket of a bus or train for morocan or african groups who arrive to the south border in Melilla or Canary Islands,(catalan autorities have evidences).


You really believe that other countries would send people to Barcelona to commit crime because they are jealous of its success?

And the Spanish government encourages it as well?


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

xgarb said:


> You really believe that other countries would send people to Barcelona to commit crime because they are jealous of its success?
> 
> And the Spanish government encourages it as well?


Yes, I believe.
Specially of the spanish government.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

xgarb said:


> You really believe that other countries would send people to Barcelona to commit crime because they are jealous of its success?
> 
> And the Spanish government encourages it as well?


Carlos E. Bayo: ‘Among this mafia there are magistrates, prosecutors and the Spanish Prime Minister’ | VilaWeb
I can believe the worst things about Spain.


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