# US M marring UK F then moving to UK



## Bobusa (Jun 12, 2010)

I wonder if someone might be able to give me an *outline* of the steps I would need to take to marry a UK national in the US and then to moved back to the UK to take up permenet residence. 

I am not sure of what kind of visa I would need (I'm the US person), how much income I would have to show the Bristish govt, ( I am retired and living of Soc Security and penisons ) to be considered not a potential drain on the UK economy. 
There must be a host of questions that I have not even thought about yet and so I'd be happy for any help.

Thank you.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Ebor60 said:


> I wonder if someone might be able to give me an *outline* of the steps I would need to take to marry a UK national in the US and then to moved back to the UK to take up permenet residence.
> 
> I am not sure of what kind of visa I would need (I'm the US person), how much income I would have to show the Bristish govt, ( I am retired and living of Soc Security and penisons ) to be considered not a potential drain on the UK economy.
> There must be a host of questions that I have not even thought about yet and so I'd be happy for any help.


After your marriage, make sure you get hold of the State's marriage certificate - the only proof of marriage British consulate will accept, not any bits of paper given by the officiant or wedding chapel. Then you apply for a settlement visa for someone married to a person settled in the UK, which will be valid for up to 27 months. After two years living together in UK, you apply for indefinite leave to remain (ILR), which removes time limit and any conditions attached to your stay - similar to a US green card (permanent resident card). 
Husbands, wives and partners (INF 4)
Your age doesn't matter, and you together need to satisfy the consulate that you will have enough money coming in - through work, pension and investment etc - to pay for accommodation and your upkeep without becoming reliant on welfare handouts ('no recourse to public funds'). You need to check what exactly you will be entitled to when you move to UK - I imagine a lot of US social security payments aren't available to non-residents, and you cannot claim anything from the UK government, though your fiancée can if she has made enough national insurance contributions.


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## Bobusa (Jun 12, 2010)

Ebor60 said:


> I wonder if someone might be able to give me an *outline* of the steps I would need to take to marry a UK national in the US and then to moved back to the UK to take up permenet residence.
> 
> I am not sure of what kind of visa I would need (I'm the US person), how much income I would have to show the Bristish govt, ( I am retired and living of Soc Security and penisons ) to be considered not a potential drain on the UK economy.
> There must be a host of questions that I have not even thought about yet and so I'd be happy for any help.
> ...




When the settlement visa is granted I am free to move to the UK, Correct?

What is my status after it is granted and before I can apply for the ILR in terms of residency?

What would be my UK tax liabilities both domestically ( UK )as well as income from the US?

Also I would have to have medical coverage in the UK - Burpa (sp) or something else for up to 2 years, correct?

Thanks again, Cheers


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Ebor60 said:


> When the settlement visa is granted I am free to move to the UK, Correct?


Yes.



> What is my status after it is granted and before I can apply for the ILR in terms of residency?


Your visa for the probationary period will be valid for up to 27 months. You can work during this time without needing permission. After 2 years of residence and provided your marriage is still subsisting, you can apply for ILR. Effectively you use the time to collect high-quality evidence to substantiate that you are in a genuine relationship (not marriage of convenience) and that you can support yourself without being dependent on state handouts.



> What would be my UK tax liabilities both domestically (UK) as well as income from the US?


Once you become a tax resident in UK (staying longer than 6 months in a year), you will be liable to tax on your worldwide income, both UK and US. You will still have to file your US tax return for IRS, and you can claim foreign income exemption. Any tax you pay in UK will be set against your US tax liability, if any. Bev is the resident expert on US and expat taxation!



> Also I would have to have medical coverage in the UK - Bupa or something else for up to 2 years, correct?


You don't need a private medical insurance, as most people just use the National Health Service, a universal health care scheme funded by taxation. You are eligible for NHS from the start, as you are coming to UK with a long-stay visa. Just register with a GP on arrival.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Ebor60 said:


> What would be my UK tax liabilities both domestically ( UK )as well as income from the US?


As a US national, you remain obligated to file US taxes wherever you live in the world. Your social security and pensions make this a bit trickier than usual. Assuming your UK spouse has no US tax obligation (i.e. is neither a US citizen, nor permanent resident), you wind up having to file as "married filing separately" from overseas. This makes at least 85% of your social security taxable to the US.

Any private pensions from the US are not excludable (as they are not considered "earned income" by the IRS rules), so chances are you'd pay US taxes on them. In any event, thanks to the social security treaties, you shouldn't wind up being double-taxed. (And I think someone here has mentioned that UK treatment of pension income is considerably different from US treatment - but I'll someone who knows more about this give you the details.)
Cheers,
Bev


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## Bobusa (Jun 12, 2010)

Joppa said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just want to make sure I understand. A settlement visa, that which is granted after I marry and before I get an ILR, allows me access to the NHS and full medical coverage?


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Ebor60 said:


> Just want to make sure I understand. A settlement visa, that which is granted after I marry and before I get an ILR, allows me access to the NHS and full medical coverage?


Yes.


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## Bobusa (Jun 12, 2010)

Bevdeforges said:


> As a US national, you remain obligated to file US taxes wherever you live in the world. Your social security and pensions make this a bit trickier than usual. Assuming your UK spouse has no US tax obligation (i.e. is neither a US citizen, nor permanent resident), you wind up having to file as "married filing separately" from overseas. This makes at least 85% of your social security taxable to the US.
> 
> Any private pensions from the US are not excludable (as they are not considered "earned income" by the IRS rules), so chances are you'd pay US taxes on them. In any event, thanks to the social security treaties, you shouldn't wind up being double-taxed. (And I think someone here has mentioned that UK treatment of pension income is considerably different from US treatment - but I'll someone who knows more about this give you the details.)
> Cheers,
> Bev


In principal then, I will not pay 'double' taxes. What is taxed by the US govt is not taxed by the UK govt. What I must do is check here (US) to find out what my taxable status would be living abroad, correct?

a bit off the subject, Dual Citizenship ? pro - cons ?

anon


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Ebor60 said:


> ...a bit off the subject, Dual Citizenship ? pro - cons ?


Dual US/UK citizenship is worth having, if eligible. It enables you to live and work in both countries without restriction, as well as full civil rights like voting, working for the government etc. You won't lose your permanent resident status no matter how long you stay away - currently, you can lose your ILR after two years away from UK, and you can forfeit your green card after being away from US for one to two years, depending on whether you left with re-entry permit or not. Of course with citizenship comes responsibility, and you may become liable to military service, need to fill your tax return yearly in US and so on. Also by international law, authority of one country cannot give consular and other support to a dual national held by the authority of the other country, and by US law, you must enter and leave US on your American passport. But they aren't normally onerous, and advantages far exceed any disadvantages.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Ebor60 said:


> In principal then, I will not pay 'double' taxes. What is taxed by the US govt is not taxed by the UK govt. What I must do is check here (US) to find out what my taxable status would be living abroad, correct?
> 
> a bit off the subject, Dual Citizenship ? pro - cons ?
> 
> anon


In principle, at least, you aren't double taxed. You do have to declare all worldwide income to both the US and UK governments and learn how to report your income from the "other" country correctly to get whatever allowances or credits are available from the one that doesn't get to tax it.

There's nothing to check with the US - you are taxable in the US as a US citizen. You report your income pretty much exactly the same as you do in the US. If you're not going to be working in the UK, you can't use form 2555 anyhow (one less complication). You can download Publication 54 from the IRS website if you want to get a head start on how filing from overseas works. You are also liable for UK taxes as a resident of the country.

The only tricky bit is the social security. (There's a separate publication on the IRS site you may want to take a look at.) Filing as "married filing separately" is what makes your social security income taxable in the US and depending on your precise financial situation may throw a couple other spanners into the works, though nothing too outrageous.

Dual citizenship is a bit of a moot point. First, you have to live in the UK for a number of years (usually 4 or 5, but I'm not sure what it is currently) before you can apply. The main advantages are the ability to vote where you live (and you can still vote for Federal offices back in the US, too - based on your last residence before leaving the country) and not having to stand in the "third world" line when returning to the UK with your UK passport.

Technically, there are still laws on the books in the US saying that they can take away your US citizenship if you "voluntarily" take a second nationality, but they haven't done this in ages, after some Supreme Court ruling back around 1990. But the law is still there and the State Dept. occasionally mentions it on their website just to get a rise out of folks. Officially, too, the US doesn't acknowledge dual citizenship - if you run into conflicting duties, the US expects you to conform to the US rules and won't cut you any slack for your duality even if you're resident in your "other" country.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Bobusa (Jun 12, 2010)

"You are also liable for UK taxes as a resident of the country."

Can you give me some idea of what they might be. I understand "Council taxes" VAT, but not sure after that.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Ebor60 said:


> "You are also liable for UK taxes as a resident of the country."
> 
> Can you give me some idea of what they might be. I understand "Council taxes" VAT, but not sure after that.


Even if you don't derive any income in UK, once you become a tax resident (living more than 6 months in a year), you become liable to UK income tax on your worldwide earnings. So your pensions and other payments from US will be taxed. Even if you are taxed already for them in US, if the relevant tax rate is higher in UK, you will still have to pay the difference. Other taxes you may become liable include capital gains tax (if you sell an asset, such as a house, in US and make a profit) and inheritance tax (payable from your estate). There are all sorts of allowances and exemptions which will trim your tax bill, but some UK tax will likely be payable.


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## Bobusa (Jun 12, 2010)

Joppa said:


> Yes.


Does that cover hospital coverage as well as GP?


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Ebor60 said:


> Does that cover hospital coverage as well as GP?


Yes, if referred by your GP or by emergency admission.


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## Bobusa (Jun 12, 2010)

Joppa said:


> Even if you don't derive any income in UK, once you become a tax resident (living more than 6 months in a year), you become liable to UK income tax on your worldwide earnings. So your pensions and other payments from US will be taxed. Even if you are taxed already for them in US, if the relevant tax rate is higher in UK, you will still have to pay the difference. Other taxes you may become liable include capital gains tax (if you sell an asset, such as a house, in US and make a profit) and inheritance tax (payable from your estate). There are all sorts of allowances and exemptions which will trim your tax bill, but some UK tax will likely be payable.




In other words: Once I have lived in the UK for 6 months under a Settlement Visa, I will be subject to UK taxes. Correct?

If I receive a pension from the US, I will be liable for taxes to the US govt and the UK govt on that pension as income, Correct ?

If the rate of taxation is the same in both contries, then I will pay the US govt one sum and the UK govt another sum ( both sums the same and in fact double the amount in total) Is this correct?

"if the relevant tax rate is higher in UK, you will still have to pay the difference." I will in fact pay the above plus the difference to the UK govt. Do I have this right?

Finally, ( I am sure you are relieved ) is this why some US citizens give up their citizenship in order not to pay taxes on the same income earned in the US in both countries?

Thank you for your patience, Joppa. You have been a great help in a very complex and murky world. Cheers


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## Bobusa (Jun 12, 2010)

Ebor60 said:


> In other words: Once I have lived in the UK for 6 months under a Settlement Visa, I will be subject to UK taxes. Correct?
> 
> If I receive a pension from the US, I will be liable for taxes to the US govt and the UK govt on that pension as income, Correct ?
> 
> ...


PS I have gone to HM Revenue & Customs
Residence and domicile: Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs)
US investment and retirement accounts 

I am not sure that I understand some of the language not being an accountant.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Ebor60 said:


> PS I have gone to HM Revenue & Customs
> Residence and domicile: Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs)
> US investment and retirement accounts
> 
> I am not sure that I understand some of the language not being an accountant.


Basically you won't be taxed twice on the same income. If the tax rate is higher in one country, the tax you've already paid in the other will be credited against your tax bill in the first, thereby only paying the difference. So for example, if the tax rate is 15% in US and 20% in UK and you are liable to pay tax in both, you pay 15% to US authorities and 5% to UK. This is an oversimplication of course, and based on personal circumstances you may pay varying amount of tax to one or both countries. Bev is the expert on taxation, so I yield to her superior knowledge!


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Ebor60 said:


> In other words: Once I have lived in the UK for 6 months under a Settlement Visa, I will be subject to UK taxes. Correct?


It's not quite that simple. The UK tax year runs from April 6th to April 5th, whereas the US is on a calendar tax year. This complicates things a bit. However it's not a matter of "after 6 months" you're subject to tax. As soon as you arrive in the UK with the intention to remain as a resident you are considered "resident" for tax purposes. If you arrive in the UK on a spouse visa, you will be considered taxable from day 1.



> If I receive a pension from the US, I will be liable for taxes to the US govt and the UK govt on that pension as income, Correct ?
> 
> If the rate of taxation is the same in both contries, then I will pay the US govt one sum and the UK govt another sum ( both sums the same and in fact double the amount in total) Is this correct?


No. You will have to declare your worldwide income to both countries - "declaring" = filing a tax return. You don't necessarily pay taxes to both countries and you most definitely don't pay double, thanks to the tax treaties covering pensions and social security.



> "if the relevant tax rate is higher in UK, you will still have to pay the difference." I will in fact pay the above plus the difference to the UK govt. Do I have this right?


Not necessarily. I'm not familiar enough with the UK tax system to be able to tell you precisely how they arrange it so that you don't pay twice, but you don't. Different countries have different mechanisms for this, but there is a way to handle it. Chances are you will pay US income taxes on your US social security (especially if you're filing as married filing separately) and pensions from the US and pay UK taxes on your UK sources of income. But, depending on how the UK does the tax treaty provisions, you may have to pay a little bit of "top up" tax on your US pensions.



> Finally, ( I am sure you are relieved ) is this why some US citizens give up their citizenship in order not to pay taxes on the same income earned in the US in both countries?


The people who give up their US citizenship to avoid taxes are extremely wealthy individuals with complex tax-structured investments - particularly those taking advantage of various tax shelters constructed to avoid paying tax at all or to disguise income as "dividends" or "corporate earnings." 

While it's annoying to have to file two sets of tax returns, it's not all that expensive if you've only got the usual sources of income.
Cheers,
Bev


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## peppera-ann- (Feb 4, 2008)

When the settlement visa is granted I am free to move to the UK, Correct?
Yes
What is my status after it is granted and before I can apply for the ILR in terms of residency?
You will be on a Settlement Visa
What would be my UK tax liabilities both domestically ( UK )as well as income from the US?
You will have to do your taxes for the USA and the UK. USA gives you an overseas credit.
Also I would have to have medical coverage in the UK - Burpa (sp) or something else for up to 2 years, correct?
You have medical coverage once you get your NINO (National Insurance Number) I went to the local Job Center and got the phone number to apply. I did not have to do anything except apply on the phone, and am waiting for the card now. You will need to register with a GP once over here.
Cheers 
PepperAnn


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

peppera-ann- said:


> When the settlement visa is granted I am free to move to the UK, Correct?
> Yes
> What is my status after it is granted and before I can apply for the ILR in terms of residency?
> You will be on a Settlement Visa
> ...


You don't need your National Insurance number in order to register with a GP and be covered for health care. NIN is needed once you start work (or have found a job) and it would be helpful to have one when you start looking for work. To get one, as advised, you phone Job Centre Plus (there is a national number you can call on 0845 600 0643) for an evidence and identity interview to apply for your number (roughly equivalent to Social Security Number). You will be told what documents to bring with you to the interview. NIN is needed for a host of other things, like opening a bank or savings account, completing tax return (if you have to - most employees don't as tax is automatically deducted from pay) and getting tax-free products like ISA.


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## Bobusa (Jun 12, 2010)

Joppa said:


> You don't need your National Insurance number in order to register with a GP and be covered for health care. NIN is needed once you start work (or have found a job) and it would be helpful to have one when you start looking for work. To get one, as advised, you phone Job Centre Plus (there is a national number you can call on 0845 600 0643) for an evidence and identity interview to apply for your number (roughly equivalent to Social Security Number). You will be told what documents to bring with you to the interview. NIN is needed for a host of other things, like opening a bank or savings account, completing tax return (if you have to - most employees don't as tax is automatically deducted from pay) and getting tax-free products like ISA.


I am almost 70 and I do not expect to work in the UK - just retire ( and live Happily everafter )

Yup..

Tnx


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## Lizzyp (Apr 5, 2010)

Joining this thread as the UK F in question!

UK citizen and US citizen planning to marry in US and live in UK after being granted spouse settlement visa. US citizen has own home plus holiday home in US. He intends to sell main US home and retain holiday home. We plan to live in UK in home currently owned by UK citizen and that property to remain solely owned by UK citizen both before and after marriage. How can we minimise our Capital gains tax liability in both US and UK? Should he sell US main home before we marry??


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## Lizzyp (Apr 5, 2010)

Lizzyp said:


> Joining this thread as the UK F in question!
> 
> UK citizen and US citizen planning to marry in US and live in UK after being granted spouse settlement visa. US citizen has own home plus holiday home in US. He intends to sell main US home and retain holiday home. We plan to live in UK in home currently owned by UK citizen and that property to remain solely owned by UK citizen both before and after marriage. How can we minimise our Capital gains tax liability in both US and UK? Should he sell US main home before we marry??


I have now got the answer to this - no US CGT if net gain less than $250,000 and no UK CGT if property sold within three years of moving.


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## Cowshill (Aug 25, 2010)

*US - UK Double Taxation Treaty and US Social Security*

Of concern to ebor60 should be the following:

Article 17 of the UK/USA DOUBLE TAXATION CONVENTION effective 31 March 2003 begins as follows.

-------

PENSIONS, SOCIAL SECURITY, ANNUITIES,
ALIMONY, AND CHILD SUPPORT
1. a) Pensions and other similar remuneration beneficially owned by a resident of a Contracting State shall be taxable only in that State.
1. b) Notwithstanding sub-paragraph a) of this paragraph, the amount of any such pension or remuneration paid from a pension scheme established in the other Contracting State that would be exempt from taxation in that other State if the beneficial owner were a resident thereof shall be exempt from taxation in the first mentioned State.

--------

I interpret this to mean that if a US expat in the UK receives US Social Security benefits which would not be taxable if he were resident in the US, then those benefits are not taxable in the UK either, even though the UK state pension is taxable income in the UK.

Her Majesty's tax men at www .hmrc.gov.uk/bulletins/tbse6.pdf go on to offer this interpretation as well: 
Thus, for example, a distribution from a US “IRA" to a UK resident will be exempt from tax in the UK to the same extent the distribution would be exempt from tax in the US.​
As I am not an international tax lawyer, I am not 100% positive of my interpretation, but it seems pretty clear cut to me. Can anyone definitely confirm this?

Still, for this to benefit ebor60 fully, he would have to be able to file his US tax return using joint status with his wife. It's not clear from earlier posts whether or not this is the case.

- Cowshill


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

I would say you're being a bit liberal with your interpretation. The taxability of US social security can change for those of us living abroad, so I'm wary of that first sentence in your interpretation - the "which would not be taxable if he were resident in the US" bit. 

It matters not whether your US social security would be taxable or not if you were US resident. The fact of your being resident in the UK may change that (e.g. if you are married to a non-US citizen and thus must file as "married filing separately").

The other statement there that gives me pause is the IRA example. When you take money out of an IRA in the US, it's generally ALL taxable in the US when you withdraw it which kind of makes the sentence nonsensical.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Cowshill (Aug 25, 2010)

Bevdeforges said:


> I would say you're being a bit liberal with your interpretation. The taxability of US social security can change for those of us living abroad, so I'm wary of that first sentence in your interpretation - the "which would not be taxable if he were resident in the US" bit.
> 
> It matters not whether your US social security would be taxable or not if you were US resident. The fact of your being resident in the UK may change that (e.g. if you are married to a non-US citizen and thus must file as "married filing separately").
> 
> ...


There are qujte a few subtleties on this area, and I was wondering whether anyone had specific knowledge of the US Social Security issue. I think I'll start a new thread asking this question.

However, on the IRA question, it is worth noting that the US has two types of IRA. One is fully taxable, but the other, the Roth IRA, is tax free, much like a UK ISA account. By terms of the treaty this should therefore not be taxable in the UK.

- Cowshill


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Cowshill said:


> There are qujte a few subtleties on this area, and I was wondering whether anyone had specific knowledge of the US Social Security issue. I think I'll start a new thread asking this question.
> 
> However, on the IRA question, it is worth noting that the US has two types of IRA. One is fully taxable, but the other, the Roth IRA, is tax free, much like a UK ISA account. By terms of the treaty this should therefore not be taxable in the UK.
> 
> - Cowshill


If you've got a specific question, probably best to start up a separate thread. The social security issue can get tricky, but there are loads of folks drawing US social security overseas, so we ought to be able to find someone with a bit of experience.

The IRA issue is a touchy one. The Roth IRA isn't actually tax free - but rather you invest after-tax money and it's only the earnings that are tax free. Also, anyone married to a non-resident alien is pretty much categorically excluded from opening a Roth IRA anyhow. 

Will be interested to see what responses you get.
Cheers,
Bev


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## perthyank (Feb 12, 2011)

(_e.g. if you are married to a non-US citizen and thus must file as "married filing separately")._

I am a US citizen married to a UK citizen. We both live in the UK. I am quite certain that I filed my 2009 US tax return as "married filing jointly", not separately. This was upon recommendation from Deloitte, plus it was backed-up by my independent tax advisor.

Please can you explain why you have said that if a US citizen is married to a non-US citizen, then you must file as "married filing separately"? Is Deloitte wrong, are you wrong, or did I just completely misunderstand the circumstances?

Thanks


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

perthyank said:


> (_e.g. if you are married to a non-US citizen and thus must file as "married filing separately")._
> 
> I am a US citizen married to a UK citizen. We both live in the UK. I am quite certain that I filed my 2009 US tax return as "married filing jointly", not separately. This was upon recommendation from Deloitte, plus it was backed-up by my independent tax advisor.
> 
> ...


I would be curious to hear why Deloitte had you file jointly. Normally, if you file a joint return you must declare both spouses' worldwide income (and be taxed on it) and both of you are supposed to be treated as US residents (which means you can't take the overseas earned income exclusion). It's a common option for the first year living abroad or the year you move abroad because the benefits from filing jointly may exceed the benefits of the exclusion. But once you're permanently established abroad it doesn't really make much sense.
Cheers,
Bev


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## perthyank (Feb 12, 2011)

Bevdeforges said:


> I would be curious to hear why Deloitte had you file jointly. Normally, if you file a joint return you must declare both spouses' worldwide income (and be taxed on it) and both of you are supposed to be treated as US residents (which means you can't take the overseas earned income exclusion). It's a common option for the first year living abroad or the year you move abroad because the benefits from filing jointly may exceed the benefits of the exclusion. But once you're permanently established abroad it doesn't really make much sense.
> Cheers,
> Bev


Okay I've had a thought once you mentioned the FEIC.

Believe it or not, Deloitte didn't claim the FEIC!

Now I realised this before filing, which is why I went to an independent tax advisor to make sure Deloitte didn't make a mistake or something else (their services are paid for by my employer, so I was worried that they may have done this to protect my employer's interests, and not mine.)

Before I go any further: Now that I see that you've indicated that filing status affects your FEIC, THE key point that I didn't mention is that my EMPLOYER pays my UK taxes on my behalf, but that does not prevent me from claiming the foreign tax credit.

I will definitely ask my independent tax advisor to re-explain so I can post back on here, but basically as I currently understand it, he ran my tax return in the 4 diff scenarios: MFJ w FEIC (but is that legal?), MFJ w/o FEIC, MFS w FEIC, and MFS w/o FEIC. The amount owed based on MFJ w/o FEIC was not the lowest, but the differences were so minimal and he advised I stick with MFJ w/o FEIC. 

Why he advised that? Again, I'll have to run thru with him again, but I believe it had to do with the rules governing SOMETHING (for the life of me I can't remember) which would have prohibited me from either the FTC or MFJ (or something else, god this is annoying) for the next 4 years or something if I opted to file a different way. You may be able to fill in my gaps in understanding there.

Why were the amount owed differences so minimal? Again he was due to send me all 4 scenario returns so I could see for myself, but I believe it was a combination of the large income gap between my wife and I, and a considerable amount of foreign tax paid during the year that could be applied to the FTC and still have some to carry forward. 

I did ask about the consequences of possibly not having as much FTC to carry forward compared to if I had used the FEIC (although I don't think the difference was huge because the FEIC takes a pro-rated cut out of your foreign tax, no?). Again, need him to re-explain to me, but it wasn't a concern, and it probably had to do with his explanation I woefully described two paragraphs above.

So does any of this make sense? Thoughts and/or are you able to fill in my gaps in understanding? Either way will have discussion with my guy and re-post.


Many thanks for your help!


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

I'd be interested in the explanation from your tax person, too, though the fact that taking or not taking the exclusion didn't make much difference could be the determining point.

The section in publication 54 about "electing" for a non-resident alien spouse to be considered a "resident" (of the US) so that you can file jointly is very vague. They used to state things so that they implied very strongly that you HAD TO get a US taxpayer i.d. number for your NRA spouse, even if the spouse had never lived in the US and had NO tax obligation in or to the US.

The other factor could have been your status in 2009 - was that the year you moved to the UK? It's often the case that you would file with your NRA spouse in the year you move in or out of the US. (Or if she has a green card and is actually obligated to file anyhow.)
Cheers,
Bev


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## perthyank (Feb 12, 2011)

Bevdeforges said:


> I'd be interested in the explanation from your tax person, too, though the fact that taking or not taking the exclusion didn't make much difference could be the determining point.
> 
> The section in publication 54 about "electing" for a non-resident alien spouse to be considered a "resident" (of the US) so that you can file jointly is very vague. They used to state things so that they implied very strongly that you HAD TO get a US taxpayer i.d. number for your NRA spouse, even if the spouse had never lived in the US and had NO tax obligation in or to the US.
> 
> ...


Hi Bev,

thanks for the reply. i'm having a discussion with my accountant tomorrow to find out (and this time remember) the reasons why we filed married-filing-jointly for 2009.

i moved to the uk in 2008, and married in August 2009, to answer your question. we had to apply for an ITIN for her in order to file in 2009.

Thanks!


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