# What happens if you don't apply for residencia after 6 months?



## Sirtravelot (Jul 20, 2011)

In theory, what would the advantages and disadvantages be if, as an EU citizen, you didn't apply for it?


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Sirtravelot said:


> In theory, what would the advantages and disadvantages be if, as an EU citizen, you didn't apply for it?


well they can't throw you out......& it's a _requirement_........ but life is becoming increasingly difficult for those without the resident registration cert/card

landlords are refusing to rent properties

you can't register for healthcare

you (in some areas) can't buy a car

if you have children you can't send them to school - I've heard that even some private schools are insisting that families are registered, whereas in the past they'd take anyone who could pay....

and I'm sure there are things I've forgotten


oh - & you're supposed to register at/by 90 days, not 6 months


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Sirtravelot said:


> In theory, what would the advantages and disadvantages be if, as an EU citizen, you didn't apply for it?


This has come up quite a lot just recently.
1. You don't apply for residency. You apply for a *certificate of residence*
2. According to Spanish law you don't *choose* whether to apply for it or not. You need it to be living here legally.
3. You have to have a Certificate of Residence after you have lived here for 90 days, which is approx 3 months.
4. If you don't have the certificate you may not be able to do certain bank transactions, you may not be able to buy certain things like a house or a car, you will not be able to work legally, you won't be able to sign on as a self employed worker etc. As you are living here illegally the authorities will be able to fine you. This is una_* infraccion grave*_ and the fine is between 501€ and 10.000€

All you have to do is queue to get a piece of paper. Why wouldn't you get it?


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Whilst I agree with what the above have written, I have a German colleague who is not registered on the foreigners register yet has a permanent job with a Spanish legal entity, two cars, a motorbike in his name and insured, two kids in school, a Seguridad Social card, rents a house.....

Go figure...


----------



## Sirtravelot (Jul 20, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> This has come up quite a lot just recently.
> 1. You don't apply for residency. You apply for a *certificate of residence*
> 2. According to Spanish law you don't *choose* whether to apply for it or not. You need it to be living here legally.
> 3. You have to have a Certificate of Residence after you have lived here for 90 days, which is approx 3 months.
> ...


Well, to get that piece of paper you need to have health insurance, money in the bank, and income right? Or am I missing something here?


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Overandout said:


> Whilst I agree with what the above have written, I have a German colleague who is not registered on the foreigners register yet has a permanent job with a Spanish legal entity, two cars, a motorbike in his name and insured, two kids in school, a Seguridad Social card, rents a house.....
> 
> Go figure...


but how long ago did he set all this in motion??


I know people too, who have kids in school, medical cards, car, house etc who have been here years... if all else was in place before 2007 when the resident cert rules came in then it was a simple enough thing to do - if they came after then they have clearly 'slipped through the net'

one person I know has never had a permanent job, never paid tax etc,..... & has now been 'found out' & had their medical cards cancelled

the only way to get them re-instated is to register as resident & start paying autónomo on their earnings...............


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Sirtravelot said:


> Well, to get that piece of paper you need to have health insurance, money in the bank, and income right? Or am I missing something here?


True, but, if you don't have those requisites in place you do stand a good chance of "failing" and becoming a burden on the state which is what the authorities are trying to overcome. 
So again, why would anyone not want to get this certificate?
Perhaps you're thinking of someone who wants to stay for 6 months on a kind of long holiday? I can see that in that situation maybe it seems like a lot of bother for nothing, but the law of the land says to get a certificate whether it's to a person's advantage or not.
Even so, I still can't see what the disadvantages are to having a certificate, and like I said before, it's not based around deciding, advantages and disadvantages, options or the like. It's a legal requirement.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Overandout said:


> Whilst I agree with what the above have written, I have a German colleague who is not registered on the foreigners register yet has a permanent job with a Spanish legal entity, two cars, a motorbike in his name and insured, two kids in school, a Seguridad Social card, rents a house.....
> 
> Go figure...


I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who don't have the Certificate of Residence. After all, the police don't normally come knocking at doors, but there is a likelihood that they will get caught out in some legal transaction, medical emergency etc. Your German colleague must have an NIE number from before 2007, probably has an old style ID card, and may well have a Spanish driving licence which will help things along. 
As has been discussed before, what would happen if caught? Deportation seems unlikey, so a fine which oscilates between 501€ and 10,000€???
Still, I have no problem with being a legal resident in this country, and if I was the head of a family I wouldn't want the unease of not being one.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who don't have the Certificate of Residence. After all, the police don't normally come knocking at doors, but there is a likelihood that they will get caught out in some legal transaction, medical emergency etc. Your German colleague must have an NIE number from before 2007, probably has an old style ID card, and may well have a Spanish driving licence which will help things along.
> As has been discussed before, what would happen if caught? Deportation seems unlikey, so a fine which oscilates between 501€ and 10,000€???
> Still, I have no problem with being a legal resident in this country, and if I was the head of a family I wouldn't want the unease of not being one.


I posted previously about a few 'early retired' acquaintances who weren't registered as resident - more than one household

they had/have lived here for years, had a non-res bank account, were/are on the padrón, paid non-res taxes etc., own property, don't owe anyone a penny - stand-up citizens apart from that green certificate


the guardia arrived at their doors - they were given 10 days to either get their 'resident' paperwork in order, or _*prove that they aren't resident*_ & come off the padrón

I know this to be true simply because they asked me to translate the summonses for them...............

they all got it sorted out - they have enough income to be able prove that they can support themselves financially & can also afford private healthcare

I do wonder what would have happened if they couldn't have


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> I posted previously about a few 'early retired' acquaintances who weren't registered as resident - more than one household
> 
> they had/have lived here for years, had a non-res bank account, were/are on the padrón, paid non-res taxes etc., own property, don't owe anyone a penny - stand-up citizens apart from that green certificate
> 
> ...


Yes, that's right, you did mention this before.
So they were lucky they didn't get fined, info here Infracciones y sanciones - Ministerio del Interior
I wonder how the police got to them?
They were also people who had been here for years and so already had everything in place ,like tax payment, padron etc. If you have ID from before 2007 I think it would be easier to move around, but I would ask, for how long?
It has to be said that the consequences don't look too dire at the moment, but I still can't see that there are any disadvantages to doing things as they want us to do them...


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, that's right, you did mention this before.
> So they were lucky they didn't get fined, info here Infracciones y sanciones - Ministerio del Interior
> I wonder how the police got to them?
> They were also people who had been here for years and so already had everything in place ,like tax payment, padron etc. If you have ID from before 2007 I think it would be easier to move around, but I would ask, for how long?
> It has to be said that the consequences don't look too dire at the moment, but I still can't see that there are any disadvantages to doing things as they want us to do them...


yes, they are lucky - & I told them as much

one household had been badly advised by their gestor - we had previously discussed the matter & I had told them that they had been given bad advice, but who would you believe - your neighbour or a 'professional'?

another couple knew that they 'should have', but couldn't be bothered/see the point & another seemed to genuinely have no idea


----------



## ezza (Apr 13, 2009)

How can my Bulgarian Gipsy neighbors get away with not being registered? They rent the house, there are 15 of them living in the house, garage and shed. 

None of them have the certificate of registration, they run a lucrative scrap business in the garden, when they arrived 2 years ago they had nothing now they own 2 vans and 3 cars, the children go to school.

The local police say "Everyone in Spain has a right to a roof over their head".


----------



## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Your German colleague must have an NIE number from before 2007, probably has an old style ID card, and may well have a Spanish driving licence which will help things along.
> 
> .... if I was the head of a family I wouldn't want the unease of not being one.


Correct on all counts.

However I know that he has very recently bought vehicles (legally) and renewed his Health Care card, all without having anything other than his passport, an expired residency card and a driving license...... which surely tells us something?


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Overandout said:


> Correct on all counts.
> 
> However I know that he has very recently bought vehicles (legally) and renewed his Health Care card, all without having anything other than his passport, an expired residency card and a driving license...... which surely tells us something?


but he's already 'in the system' & paying tax & NI

it's those who have been living below the radar who are coming up against problems now


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

You choose to live in a country, you stick by its rules.
If you wish to settl;e in a country you should have sufficient funds to pay your way and expect nothing from your adopted home country until you have paid your dues to it.
If only the U.K. were as strict in protecting its borders...

There seems to be a substantial minority of immigrants, British and other nationalities, who seem to think they have a different status to the common Spanish folk...


----------



## chris&vicky (Feb 6, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> True, but, if you don't have those requisites in place you do stand a good chance of "failing" and becoming a burden on the state which is what the authorities are trying to overcome.
> So again, why would anyone not want to get this certificate?
> Perhaps you're thinking of someone who wants to stay for 6 months on a kind of long holiday? I can see that in that situation maybe it seems like a lot of bother for nothing, but the law of the land says to get a certificate whether it's to a person's advantage or not.
> Even so, I still can't see what the disadvantages are to having a certificate, and like I said before, it's not based around deciding, advantages and disadvantages, options or the like. It's a legal requirement.


You say to get the certificate you have to have income into a Spanish Bank and savings. I will move to Spain soon. The only income I will have is from letting my UK property. I do have a private pension in draw-down but do not wish to draw on it yet. 

I was hoping that I could just set up a monthly transfer to a Spanish Bank from my UK savings account plus the rental income. This will fund me for many years until I need to draw on my pension. Is this going to be acceptable as income? And how much income/savings do you need?


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

chris&vicky said:


> You say to get the certificate you have to have income into a Spanish Bank and savings. I will move to Spain soon. The only income I will have is from letting my UK property. I do have a private pension in draw-down but do not wish to draw on it yet.
> 
> I was hoping that I could just set up a monthly transfer to a Spanish Bank from my UK savings account plus the rental income. This will fund me for many years until I need to draw on my pension. Is this going to be acceptable as income? And how much income/savings do you need?


I think it's income of £5000 per person per annum or thereabouts.


----------



## chris&vicky (Feb 6, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> I think it's income of £5000 per person per annum or thereabouts.


The amount is no problem as long as it does not matter where if comes from. I read elsewhere somebody saying they had a problem because it was not pension paid directly into a Spanish bank account. But if you retire early and are using your own savings and investments that is not possible.


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

chris&vicky said:


> The amount is no problem as long as it does not matter where if comes from. I read elsewhere somebody saying they had a problem because it was not pension paid directly into a Spanish bank account. But if you retire early and are using your own savings and investments that is not possible.


the thread you refer to has been updated and it was not an issue of where income from there was some information missing.

We have been advised by solicitor that as long as you can prove funds in the bank, and regular payments income is income............


----------



## samthemainman (Aug 15, 2012)

I'm not retiring but live out here but am paid in sterling into my UK bank account. Every month I do a structured payment (AKA a SEPA transfer) from the Cooperative Bank into my La Caixa bank account which costs me £8. If I phone by around 10am the cash is in my account before the end of the day - but it's always within 1 working day as a rule - even if they quote 2.

I emailed my customer service rep at La Caixa to ask her to mail me with a copy of both statements and a 'certificate' showing the regular payments (I did three months worth) going in to the account. This satisfied the Extranjeria. I didn't have a lump sum, but I understand the minimum monthly income is probably around 600 Euros - or whatever it is that would mean that you would not qualify for state benefit.


----------



## chris&vicky (Feb 6, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> This has come up quite a lot just recently.
> 1. You don't apply for residency. You apply for a *certificate of residence*
> 2. According to Spanish law you don't *choose* whether to apply for it or not. You need it to be living here legally.
> 3. You have to have a Certificate of Residence after you have lived here for 90 days, which is approx 3 months.
> ...


I will try to be very careful in my post here as I have a habit of annoying people  

I do not doubt in any way what you say here but just get confused by all the completely different posts on various sites. One things it has taught me is seek professional advice, which I will do when in Spain next week.

Moving to Spain for me is no option. I am moving for early retirement to be with my partner who already lives there. My plan was to rent my property and rent in Spain and sell and buy later, Now with the CGT thing I wonder if I should sell before I am tax resident in Spain, which I assume is when I get the Cert?

You say if you do not have a Certificate of Residence you may be fines between euro 501 and 10,000 and you are living in Spain illegally. I have searched everywhere on Google and can't find any reference to the fines, can you point me at anything?

Many posts on other Forums just dismiss the cert as unnecessary and will result in taxes i.e. CGT on your house sale, whereas as non-resident you do not pay CGT. 

My understanding is that contrary to what some people believe, irrespective of whether you have the new style residence paper or not, if you remain in Spain for more than 182 days in a calendar year you will be regarded as a resident for tax purposes, thus liable to pay income tax on your world-wide income.

Here's is a typical post from another site .... "There is no "Residencia" any more . It was done away with in 2007. There is a requirement to register on the EU registration list but non-registration is a fine of €300 & that is it. It is not illegal ,nor can it ever be. EU rules, state that an EU citizen has the right to live where he chooses & the state has no right to offer Or confer residency but the citizen has the right to choose to live there."

Thank you most kindly.


----------



## Tilley (Jun 10, 2012)

chris&vicky said:


> I will try to be very careful in my post here as I have a habit of annoying people
> 
> I do not doubt in any way what you say here but just get confused by all the completely different posts on various sites. One things it has taught me is seek professional advice, which I will do when in Spain next week.
> 
> ...


Is the other site relaible though ? I have found from my own experience that the posters on here tend to know what they are talking about in terms of such matters. 

You obvioulsy know there are two types of residence from what you post above, ie the 90 and the 182 day (tax residence). 

My understanding is that you need both to legally reside in Spain, based on infomation gleened from this site.

I can't really see the problem as if you are going there permanenty you may just as well organise both, the logical thing to do is the 90 day one first and then the tax residency one next.

Maybe I am missing something, but it seems simple to me.


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

chris&vicky said:


> I will try to be very careful in my post here as I have a habit of annoying people
> 
> I do not doubt in any way what you say here but just get confused by all the completely different posts on various sites. One things it has taught me is seek professional advice, which I will do when in Spain next week.
> 
> ...


See comments above.

I don't believe anything that Pesky stated was wrong. The problem seems to be terminology - when translating from a foreign language and trying to explain rules, problems will always arise.


----------



## chris&vicky (Feb 6, 2013)

Tilley said:


> Is the other site relaible though ? I have found from my own experience that the posters on here tend to know what they are talking about in terms of such matters.
> 
> You obvioulsy know there are two types of residence from what you post above, ie the 90 and the 182 day (tax residence).
> 
> ...


I do agree, sign for the cert, I do not really understand why so many object. Maybe there is confusion between those "living in Spain" and those who live in Spain and UK jumping to to' and fro'. 

I think my real concern is how best to deal with the potential massive GCT on my house. I always thought invest in your property then downsize when you retire and live on the excess equity, works in the UK, not sure in Spain.


----------



## Tilley (Jun 10, 2012)

chris&vicky said:


> I do agree, sign for the cert, I do not really understand why so many object. Maybe there is confusion between those "living in Spain" and those who live in Spain and UK jumping to to' and fro'.
> 
> I think my real concern is how best to deal with the potential massive GCT on my house. I always thought invest in your property then downsize when you retire and live on the excess equity, works in the UK, not sure in Spain.


I think the later is really a question for you yourself as it is personal to you and something you must decide, its a akin to giving financial advice to someone, so that is why you are having diffiuclty getting a specific response.


----------



## chris&vicky (Feb 6, 2013)

Tilley said:


> I think the later is really a question for you yourself as it is personal to you and something you must decide, its a akin to giving financial advice to someone, so that is why you are having diffiuclty getting a specific response.


I take your point.

It was not really advice I was seeking just a full understanding of the CGT re main residence law.

I will seek clarification of the facts from a professional.

Thank you for your reply though I very much appreciate it.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

chris&vicky said:


> You say if you do not have a Certificate of Residence you may be fines between euro 501 and 10,000 and you are living in Spain illegally. I have searched everywhere on Google and can't find any reference to the fines, can you point me at anything?
> 
> Many posts on other Forums just dismiss the cert as unnecessary and will result in taxes i.e. CGT on your house sale, whereas as non-resident you do not pay CGT.


Here is the info from the Spanish Home Office page. I don't know how you searched for it, but if you searched in English, that _may_ be the problem.
Infracciones y sanciones - Ministerio del Interior
I think it says something in _infraciones muy graves_ point a, for example and the amount of the fines is at the bottom of the page. There are probably several points that overlap, so it's not just point a.

Would this actually be out into operation? I have no idea. I presume it would depend on you, what you're like and how you behave and what the authorities that find out are like too.

My personal point of view is that I don't like to think I'm on a list somewhere, that I'm trackable, that Big Brother is breathing down my neck. However, I am living in the EU in the 21st century. I have a mobile phone, I have email accounts, I use internet daily, there are security cameras in the town where I live, in the bank I use. Oh that's another one - I have a bank account!! I am utterly traceable. People, the police, the tax officials, the hackers, the baddies and the goodies can all get whatever info they like about me, my money, etc., so who am i kidding? I don't think it should be like that, will voice my opinion against Google etc using this info for their own needs, but that's where we are now.

On the other hand, I want to live here permanently. I'm not a criminal, I do very few illegal things. I don't even go over the speed limit on the motorway (although I do on the service roads ). In this country everybody - Spanish or otherwise, have to be registered and be issued with some form of ID and I conform with that as a condition to live legally in Spain. It's a small price to pay IMHO.


----------



## chris&vicky (Feb 6, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Here is the info from the Spanish Home Office page. I don't know how you searched for it, but if you searched in English, that _may_ be the problem.
> Infracciones y sanciones - Ministerio del Interior
> On the other hand, I want to live here permanently. I'm not a criminal, I do very few illegal things. I don't even go over the speed limit on the motorway (although I do on the service roads ). In this country everybody - Spanish or otherwise, have to be registered and be issued with some form of ID and I conform with that as a condition to live legally in Spain. It's a small price to pay IMHO.


Thank you much appreciated. I too want to live permanently in Spain, and legally.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

chris&vicky said:


> Here's is a typical post from another site .... "There is no "Residencia" any more . It was done away with in 2007. There is a requirement to register on the EU registration list but non-registration is a fine of €300 & that is it. It is not illegal ,nor can it ever be. EU rules, state that an EU citizen has the right to live where he chooses & the state has no right to offer Or confer residency but the citizen has the right to choose to live there."
> 
> Thank you most kindly.


There is no "residencia". That word should be banned from all UK Spain forums (not sure of the US situation). It is dead, it is extinct. It is no more.
There is a CERTIFICATE OF RESIDENCE/ CERTIFICADO DE RESIDENCIA which may or may not be a card depending on where you live. 
Then there is the bit about the EU and EU rules.
My personal stance on this is that it may well be true that this is illegal within the EU, but Spain says that's what you have to do and I live in Spain. It's not expensive and it's doable. Going to the EU courts is possibly expensive and not very doable, and in my opinion not worth spending my time on. I don't like it particularly, I don't really agree with it, but it doesn't do me any harm either.
But that's just my thoughts on the subject.


----------



## titania (Jan 3, 2013)

Well, you may want to reside officially in a broom cupboard in a country where tax is low, and reside non-officially in Spain with a nice large house, if the amount of the fine for being illegal in Spain is smaller than the possibly large savings on taxes in the official country of residence as compared with full Spanish taxes. That is provided you could afford a non-prohibitive private health insurance in Spain. There might also be advantages with respect to inheritance depending on the differences of law for handing down assets in the two countries. One could do that at least until found out... Did I get it right?


----------



## chris&vicky (Feb 6, 2013)

titania said:


> Well, you may want to reside officially in a broom cupboard in a country where tax is low, and reside non-officially in Spain with a nice large house, if the amount of the fine for being illegal in Spain is smaller than the possibly large savings on taxes in the official country of residence as compared with full Spanish taxes. That is provided you could afford a non-prohibitive private health insurance in Spain. There might also be advantages with respect to inheritance depending on the differences of law for handing down assets in the two countries. One could do that at least until found out... Did I get it right?


Sorry I am not really sure I understand that, should it have been quoted against something? 

For me I want to live legally in Spain, pay my taxes, period. I will not get any Spanish Health cover as not at retirement age so just the 2 years + from the S1 then I am on my own with the Private cover I can afford, until I reach the age of retirement. If I live in Spain I expect to obey their laws, and I want to live in Spain.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

titania said:


> Well, you may want to reside officially in a broom cupboard in a country where tax is low, and reside non-officially in Spain with a nice large house, if the amount of the fine for being illegal in Spain is smaller than the possibly large savings on taxes in the official country of residence as compared with full Spanish taxes. That is provided you could afford a non-prohibitive private health insurance in Spain. There might also be advantages with respect to inheritance depending on the differences of law for handing down assets in the two countries. One could do that at least until found out... Did I get it right?


I have not been able to follow this paragraph either.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I have not been able to follow this paragraph either.


nor me really


I sort of think it's a bit tongue in cheek about living in a nice villa in Spain, below the radar, when the potential fines & the private healthcare would actually cost less than living elsewhere legally in a not so nice house

at least I hope it was tongue in cheek..............


----------



## samthemainman (Aug 15, 2012)

My thoughts are these. If you're here for more than 90 consecutive days you get yourself on the register and do things the right way. Similarly for getting on the Padron. (I had to get that before getting on the foreigners list).

The impact of not doing it has been explained countless times. You can't get a resident bank account, you can't buy a car, you can't get water, blah, blah, blah. It costs little more than an hour of your time and about 10 quid.

If the shoe was on the other foot and we were EU citizens of former Eastern Bloc origin trying to slip under radar in the UK in the same way, being scoffed at by every stereotypical Daily Mail reader and fuelling the immigration debate - it makes the decision to stand in a short queue at the Extranjería worth being mithered about...

However - tax residency is a lot more complicated and now even the 183 day rule is being made more complex by HMRC if you're spending time or earning in the UK....


----------



## titania (Jan 3, 2013)

Ah well, sorry if I was not clear. I guess my type of humor can be convoluted at times.

I was replying to the original poster, here:



Sirtravelot said:


> In theory, what would the advantages and disadvantages be if, as an EU citizen, you didn't apply for it?


In theory...

In practice?

To be truthful, living within 80 meters of a border, I daily come across people who do not respect the laws of residence of either country, either by choice or by other constraints. Hardly a week goes by when people who are obviously transients in transit, judging by their accents or cloth, ask me to rent them rooms. One even offered to live in my windowless cellar!!!. Same as when I cross over the border and see all the very early morning ladies walk to wealthy houses, many with distinct physical features of other continents, and undoubtedly for cleaning jobs, where no-one is in dispute here that the poor souls live 7 or 8, or 9, in a cramped room let by some greedy landlord. In other wealthy houses, there are also no doubts whatsoever that the property owners have claimed residency over there for fiscal reasons, while spending most of their times under palm trees and sandy beaches.

In my post answering the original poster (sorry, I should have quoted), I am not accusing anyone of not bowing to the law. In theory, one can draw conclusions on what may be perceived as advantages to being illegal, whether this were in Spain or elswhere. I'm not condoning this. I'm just a realist.


----------

