# Pamplona Bull Run!



## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

Hi - I read this, today on the UK 'Guardian' newspaper's webpage. I support everything the writer claims, in his article. I love Spanish culture - except for the acceptance and tolerance of animal abuse! In particular, the systematic, legal torturing of live animals to death for entertainment horrifies me! 

Visitors to the Pamplona bull run have blood on their hands | Benjamin Zephaniah | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

We are all citizens of Europe, so we each have the individual right to campaign for a change in European legislation to make such behaviour illegal and unacceptable in this, the 21st century! I have no qualms in choosing to add my own voice and support to that campaign. I would not stand by and watch children being tortured in public. Neither will I ignore the prolonged and agonising suffering of live animals - of whatever species! The fact that this occurs in this 'Western European' state, with a modern system of Education, makes the continuation of such '_cultural traditions'_ even more shocking! 

Luckily, during my seven years in Spain, I've never yet had a single friend who's supported bull running, bull fighting or the remaining _'blood festivals_' in which live animals and birds are tortured, at length, in front of festive or religious crowds!
In fact, I'm slightly hopeful that, with increased educational opportunities, younger generations of Spaniards and tourists alike will refuse to participate in, or to watch, such appalling 'spectacles!' 

Meanwhile, the campaigning goes on…!

Saludos,
GC


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## ScottJaniceKyleErinFreya (Jan 11, 2013)

If you dont like it dont watch it.
We are all part of Europe but as individual countries we still need to keep our identities etc Its part of Spains culture/traditions and surely up to the people of Spain to decide its future, not us expats/immigrants to come and change that for them.
I know some Spaniards are still all for it, i went to the bull run 10/12 years ago with a Spanish family and their Friends, and i guess there are a lot against it, but that goes with everything in life.

Im figuring as it was in the Guardian marydoll will be on here soon posting too and probably rip me for my comment LOL
I accept its not everyones idea of fun.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

ScottJaniceKyleErinFreya said:


> If you dont like it dont watch it.
> We are all part of Europe but as individual countries we still need to keep our identities etc Its part of Spains culture/traditions and surely up to the people of Spain to decide its future, not us expats/immigrants to come and change that for them.
> I know some Spaniards are still all for it, i went to the bull run 10/12 years ago with a Spanish family and their Friends, and i guess there are a lot against it, but that goes with everything in life.
> 
> ...


I presume, therefore from the tone of your post that, coming from Scotland, you support separating the head from the body with a claymore when somebody offends you in the interests of the need to keep your identities etc as part of Scotland's culture/traditions. 

Frequently the ones who are there and taking part are drunken youths with suicidal tendencies from not only Spain but UK and other countries.


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## ScottJaniceKyleErinFreya (Jan 11, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> I presume, therefore from the tone of your post that, coming from Scotland, _you support separating the head from the body with a claymore when somebody offends you _in the interests of the need to keep your identities etc as part of Scotland's culture/traditions.
> 
> Frequently the ones who are there and taking part are drunken youths with suicidal tendencies from not only Spain but UK and other countries.


Thats new to me baldy, i havnt ever seen that done before.
But i believe that i have said on here that i would happily behead someone using my battlehardened claymore if they abused anyone one of my family

_Frequently the ones who are there and taking part are drunken youths with suicidal tendencies from not only Spain but UK and other countries_

I went to the run and yeah there was a few idiots doing the UK proud, but iv been to a few rings, didnt see any drunken youths kicking around them, but ill look out for them the next tyime i go


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> I presume, therefore from the tone of your post that, coming from Scotland, you support separating the head from the body with a claymore when somebody offends you in the interests of the need to keep your identities etc as part of Scotland's culture/traditions.
> 
> Frequently the ones who are there and taking part are drunken youths with suicidal tendencies from not only Spain but UK and other countries.


Oi you... we don't ALL go around swinging claymores at people's heads...personally, I prefer a LochAber axe 

It should also be noted that sending a few drunken idiots to go play with several hundred kilograms of very angry hamburger can only improve the gene pool


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

ScottJaniceKyleErinFreya said:


> Thats new to me baldy, i havnt ever seen that done before.
> But i believe that i have said on here that i would happily behead someone using my battlehardened claymore if they abused anyone one of my family
> 
> _Frequently the ones who are there and taking part are drunken youths with suicidal tendencies from not only Spain but UK and other countries_
> ...


What the Grunaid says is completely irrelevant, the question is do you support the mistreatment of any animals in the line of providing entertainment or not? Personally I don't. We have two dogs that have been rescued one was abandoned in the snow, the other had been shot and abandoned then because he could only get around on three legs (the fourth having been broken by the bullet) he was used as a football by some children.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

dunmovin said:


> Oi you... we don't ALL go around swinging claymores at people's heads...personally, I prefer a LochAber axe


Keep ye sporran on, Wullie dinna fesh y'sen.


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## ScottJaniceKyleErinFreya (Jan 11, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> _What the Grunaid says is completely irrelevant, the question is do you support the mistreatment of any animals in the line of providing entertainment or not_? Personally I don't. We have two dogs that have been rescued one was abandoned in the snow, the other had been shot and abandoned then because he could only get around on three legs (the fourth having been broken by the bullet) he was used as a football by some children.
> 
> The topic is not about abusing pet dogs


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

ScottJaniceKyleErinFreya said:


> baldilocks said:
> 
> 
> > _What the Grunaid says is completely irrelevant, the question is do you support the mistreatment of any animals in the line of providing entertainment or not_? Personally I don't. We have two dogs that have been rescued one was abandoned in the snow, the other had been shot and abandoned then because he could only get around on three legs (the fourth having been broken by the bullet) he was used as a football by some children.
> ...


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Keep ye sporran on, Wullie dinna fesh y'sen.



Duz that mean ah've goat tae put the axe awa' again


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

Born and bred in Pamplona myself.... I have to say that the bullrun is just a tradition, I don't expect everybody to understand. It is harmless for the bulls. They use it to move the bulls from the 'pen' where they are being kept to the bullfighting arena to be killed that very same day at 5pm. 

I don't like bullfighting and don't approve of them but the bullrun I see it as harmless, as the ponies on the ferias, and the horses pulling the carts in Sevilla and Malaga and every where else or the caged parrots. 

Bullfighting is something else totally different which I hate with passion.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

ScottJaniceKyleErinFreya said:


> If you dont like it dont watch it.
> We are all part of Europe but as individual countries we still need to keep our identities etc Its part of Spains culture/traditions and surely up to the people of Spain to decide its future, not us expats/immigrants to come and change that for them.
> I know some Spaniards are still all for it, i went to the bull run 10/12 years ago with a Spanish family and their Friends, and i guess there are a lot against it, but that goes with everything in life.
> 
> ...


I stopped reading The Guardian years ago. I began reading it when I was twelve and it cost 3d.
I haven't read it for the past five years as I am no longer the right sort of person: I don't work in the meeja, earn over £100k, drink at the Met Bar or lunch at The Ivy. 
A once great newspaper is now imo a comic for wealthy middle-class lefties.

As for the corrida....I think it's barbaric and disgusting but what can I do about it...
Cruelty to dogs however is something I can do a little about so I concentrate on that.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

dunmovin said:


> Oi you... we don't ALL go around swinging claymores at people's heads...personally, I prefer a LochAber axe


My Glaswegian OH's Mammy prefered words...lots of them....often incomprehensible to Sassenachs.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> My Glaswegian OH's Mammy prefered words...lots of them....often incomprehensible to Sassenachs.


hee hee , they n'ken fit ye're seyin! 

On the other hand a lot of Glaswegians are incomprehensible to other Scots!


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Sorry but this hiding cruelty behind the guise of it being culture/tradition doesn't wear with me.

In some cultures it is the norm to practice female circumcision, does it make it right? Hell no!

Neither does tormenting bulls either by making them run down the road which has not been prepared so they won't slip etc or the torture of them in the bullring.

Thankfully Catalonia has seen sense and banned bullfighting and are in the process of considering banning bull running.

All I can say is YAY BULLY! whenever I see/hear of someone being injured by a running bull.


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## Educator (Jul 5, 2013)

It's a big cultural difference. In my village a mule would be cosseted and pampered because it was economically useful. A cat with a broken leg was a joke - the leg would be pulled contemptuously up and dropped to show it didnt work. The cat was not useful.

Personally I deplore the cruelty of bull sports. I also feel similarly about human boxing which tempts young males into a dangerous zone where they risk brain damage.
To me all living things should be treated decently and not pushed into unnecessary violence - and entertainment is not enough justification for one creature to hurt another.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Just watched the video, are those taking part from this planet?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lolito said:


> Born and bred in Pamplona myself.... I have to say that the bullrun is just a tradition, I don't expect everybody to understand...
> I don't like bullfighting and don't approve of them but the bullrun I see it as harmless,


I have to say that is a pretty typical attitude, but it seems to me that you haven't really questioned the situation which often happens because it's something that has always been there and is part of your life.
Seriously though, it's obvious that the bulls are stressed and threatened. Do bulls in their natural habitat run, slide, fall over and charge? Not unless there is some danger to their well being - like for example being surrounded by noise and movement outside their natural habitat. Of that there is no doubt. There's no way that is harmless!
That fact that it's a tradition doesn't mean that it's good, or that it's something that needs to be understood by those outside. More likely it needs to be seen for what it really is by those who follow it!
As for young people rejecting bull fighting and the like, unfortunately I think there's too much interest in the general "fiesta" for it to die down soon. And in the case of Pamplona as some people have said there is too much interest from foreigners, which in its turn means money for local tourist trade... Nobody's going to stop that from happening - especially with the way things are nowadays.


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## fergie (Oct 4, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I have to say that is a pretty typical attitude, but it seems to me that you haven't really questioned the situation which often happens because it's something that has always been there and is part of your life.
> Seriously though, it's obvious that the bulls are stressed and threatened. Do bulls in their natural habitat run, slide, fall over and charge? Not unless there is some danger to their well being - like for example being surrounded by noise and movement outside their natural habitat. Of that there is no doubt. There's no way that is harmless!
> That fact that it's a tradition doesn't mean that it's good, or that it's something that needs to be understood by those outside. More likely it needs to be seen for what it really is by those who follow it!
> As for young people rejecting bull fighting and the like, unfortunately I think there's too much interest in the general "fiesta" for it to die down soon. And in the case of Pamplona as some people have said there is too much interest from foreigners, which in its turn means money for local tourist trade... Nobody's going to stop that from happening - especially with the way things are nowadays.


I agree with a lot you say, bulls are threatened and must be scared out of their wits by noisy crowds, I know my dog is scared of noisy crowds and fireworks etc. 
Tourists love to watch a traditional Spanish parade during some fiesta's, with beautiful costumes, music, horses and carriages, omitting the bull fighting or running would not make a great deal of difference to the crowds enjoyment, it is a tradition that most would be glad to see in the history books, with 'Toreador' only being heard of in Carmen.


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> I stopped reading The Guardian years ago. I began reading it when I was twelve and it cost 3d.
> I haven't read it for the past five years as I am no longer the right sort of person: I don't work in the meeja, earn over £100k, drink at the Met Bar or lunch at The Ivy.
> A once great newspaper is now imo a comic for wealthy middle-class lefties.
> 
> ...


Hi - how strange that you should pigeonhole '_Guardian'_ readers thus..I read the' _Guardian'_ online edition weekly, whilst in Spain - yet I cannot recognise myself in your description of 't*he right sort of person',* at all! An example of the small prejudices we humans create to support and justify our personal preferences and choices, no doubt..! I'm not fazed by your opinion, =at all. I also read several other British and Spanish newspapers (thanks to the Net..) despite being unlikely to qualify as '_a typical reader'_ of any. If I find them newsworthy, informative and/or entertaining I'll browse their pages quite happily - after all, it's often the articles and blogs I read by chance that prove to most meaningful for me! 

! I feel the same about BBC Radio - I get to hear all sorts of incredible music, fascinating discussions, short stories, plays and series which challenge my '_world view' _but, sometimes it pays to be jolted out of our 'comfort zones' - commonly, that leads to our learning something new, wouldn't you agree?

Re. Bull running - I respect, entirely, the voluntary role you fulfil, on behalf of Adana - and understand your decision to devote yourself to the tasks concerned!

In reality, we all have just one lifespan - which will never be enough to enable us to be actively involved in every Spanish-based group campaigning for better animal treatment and welfare, including an end to the ritualised abuse and slaughter of bulls in this country! Spreading ourselves too wide and too thin would certainly achieve so little in Spain, where levels of cruelty towards animals still seem so high! 

We all do what we can, but Adana is helping so many dogs, every day. Your team must be so highly motivated - so well prepared and devoted to the dogs in Adana's charge! Long may that continue..! 

By contrast, I hope to have more time available, in two month's time, so plan to increase my own involvement with animal rescue groups in Spain! There will, definitely, be more legal protests held against both bull-running and bull fighting! Each activity is iappallingly cruel, but, as is clear from some related posts, not everyone understands the abuse inherent in these 'traditional' and 'cultural' events - nor in the levels of suffering routinely endured by the animals involved!

There is so much more that can be done to raise awareness and to campaign against 'taurina tortura' as one national Spanish org. describes it! Bull- running is simply another means by which these large herbivores are subjected to cruel treatment in an alien environment - namely, the narrow, cobbled or paved streets of Spanish towns and cities, full of noisy, frenzied crowds - routinely fuelled by large quantities of alcohol!

As I've posted on a previous thread, long ago - in GB, the hunting of live animals with dog packs was also claimed to be 'traditional' and 'cultural', so impossible to challenge, let alone ban! That conviction was eventually found to be totally untrue - the Ban still stands, today…!

Saludos,
GC 

I


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - how strange that you should pigeonhole '_Guardian'_ readers thus..I read the' _Guardian'_ online edition weekly, whilst in Spain - yet I cannot recognise myself in your description of 't*he right sort of person',* at all! An example of the small prejudices we humans create to support and justify our personal preferences and choices, no doubt..! I'm not fazed by your opinion, =at all. I also read several other British and Spanish newspapers (thanks to the Net..) despite being unlikely to qualify as '_a typical reader'_ of any. If I find them newsworthy, informative and/or entertaining I'll browse their pages quite happily - after all, it's often the articles and blogs I read by chance that prove to most meaningful for me!
> 
> ! I feel the same about BBC Radio - I get to hear all sorts of incredible music, fascinating discussions, short stories, plays and series which challenge my '_world view' _but, sometimes it pays to be jolted out of our 'comfort zones' - commonly, that leads to our learning something new, wouldn't you agree?
> 
> ...


I agree with you about Radio 4 - I'm assuming that's what you mean when you talk about radio.
But not about The Guardian. Of course not all people fall into the category I've described. But of the people who write for it and their target readership, many fit that description. During my time working with the TUC I came across many 'left-wing' journalists who certainly did and do! 
What can you say of a paper that purports to be in the forefront of the struggle against global poverty when it sees no incongruity in running photos of starving African children in the same edition as fashion pages advertising Louboutin shoes at £300 a pop and other similarly trendy and expensive apparel as well as advising its readers to buy wine at £20 a bottle and dine in restaurants where you wouldn't get out without paying well over £100 for lunch for two?
The final nail in the coffin for me was an up-your-own- backside piece in last week's edition where a thirtyish achingly trendy 'writer' took up almost a whole page to tell us he had in the recent past been a serial shagger - not forgetting to write that some of his conquests had remarked to others about his extraordinary prowess between the sheets but was now a reformed character as he had met a 'warm, witty, intelligent and sensitive woman' who 'understood the psychological frailty behind his previous philandering?
This was once a truly great newspaper which meant so much to me that I once sent my seventeen year old son to the nearest town to buy a copy as the local newsagent had received no deliveries because of deep snow! The quality of the comment and reporting was superb and impartial. Now it's superficial and biased.
I read The Independent now.

Thanks for your comments about ADANA. We do our best but feel at times like King Cnut.

I loathe the corrida and was unhappy when our newish PP Alcalde decided to reopen our local bullring which now stages regular Sunday contests. But if I campaigned openly against it I would risk losing local support for ADANA as bizzarely as it seems to you and me there are people who hate cruelty to dogs and cats but enjoy seeing cruelty where bulls are involved.

I think it might be a better idea to try to influence British tourists who, accirding to a Spanish friend, along with ageing Franquistas make up the spectators at these vile events.


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## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

" They use it to move the bulls from the 'pen' where they are being kept to the bullfighting arena". What a typical and uninformed comment. The bulls are brought up in the countryside with very little contact with people, they are then transported to a noisy atmosphere, kept in the dark, drugged and then released into a street full of people often with the assistance of electric shocks to make then leave. No wonder they run!!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

There's still plenty of interest in "The Running of the Bulls" in Pamplona including a 3D documentary film released to coincide with the festival which is being held this week.
El Encierro La Pélicula | San Fermín Encierro - Pamplona


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> There's still plenty of interest in "The Running of the Bulls" in Pamplona including a 3D documentary film released to coincide with the festival which is being held this week.
> El Encierro La Pélicula | San Fermín Encierro - Pamplona


Doesn't mean that it is an acceptable practice. After all there were enough people who watched "Chainsaw Massacre" and that was only fiction.


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