# Buying in Spain



## drefach (Dec 31, 2014)

We are retired and looking to buy a holiday home in spain to spend a lot of time there in possibly Almeria or Murcia but don't know much about the regions. Can anyone offer any advice regarding these areas or other regions of spain which has ex pats and Spanish living together in a not so built up area. Crime and safety would be a help also. I know there is crime everywhere but it sounds harrowing when you don't know the country.


Georgina - Wales


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## amespana (Nov 10, 2009)

Have you ever visited spain.


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## Leper (May 12, 2010)

Right Georgina, I am presuming you are virginal new to this forum. The advice you're looking for is available on many many previous posts on this forum. Have a look at the posts and then separate the chaff from the wheat. Ensure you keep advice from the "wheat."

However, (I know you would probably have me shot at this point, but you'll have to get in line behind that long queue for that) in a nutshell:-
1. Rent in whatever location that will tick your required boxes e.g. proximity to airports, Brit population if you do not speak Spanish, Beach location if you intend renting out your property, Garden if you have large dogs etc etc. By renting (for not less than a month) off season you will get the true feel of where you might live. Remember you could choose the ideal resort and then find your next door neighbour is a candidate for Anti Social Behaviour canonisation. So tread carefully.

2. Employ an independent solicitor (not an abogado) when you decide to buy. Don't underestimate this suggestion. It could be the best money you ever spent. Believe in the horror stories of some of those who did not employ an independent solicitor.

I live in Mojacar Playa Costa Almeria on and off during the year. It ticks all my boxes, Beach, Good Local Public Transport, Choice of Airports, Walks on the level, Supermarkets, Medical Care, Ease of Renting our apartment, Nice neighbours etc.

You should be able to rent a 2 bedroom lowrise apartment off season @ €550 per month off season. Best of Luck.


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## Derek H (Dec 7, 2008)

As mantras go. This seems to be spot on, and will be repeated again and again.

Oh! It is also one we will follow. Three years and counting.

Derek


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

Leper said:


> R
> 
> 2. Employ an independent solicitor (not an abogado) when you decide to buy.
> 
> .


Now you have me confused. Tell me how they are not the same in this situation.


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## drefach (Dec 31, 2014)

*Buying property in Spain*



amespana said:


> Have you ever visited spain.


Hello, no, I have been to Gran Canaria only but I have heard good reports from some people. I probably should visit and stay a little while to get to know Spain. I am unsure of areas that are best suited to us and I am trying to gather as much info as possible from people living there. I do have a friend who owns a property in Spain and I intend speaking with her. We have just moved to another part of Wales and are seriously thinking of a holiday home in Spain where we can spend time enjoying the sun especially in winter. I definitely would not rent it out, it would be for us and the family.


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## drefach (Dec 31, 2014)

Thank you for your response, I will take everything you have said on board.


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## drefach (Dec 31, 2014)

larryzx said:


> Now you have me confused. Tell me how they are not the same in this situation.


Do you mean employ a British Solicitor??


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## StevejR1 (May 21, 2013)

drefach said:


> Do you mean employ a British Solicitor??


I must admit that I am confused by what an independent solicitor is?

I think as a potential buyer, that choosing a good solicitor is the single most nerve wracking decision to make....even more daunting than the decision to move to Spain!!

The problem is in the uk they are regulated, and most are recommended via the estate agents your buying the property from, and this is a generally trouble free method of finding one.....but this is universally discouraged by nearly everyone when discussing where to find a good one in Spain!

The trouble being, that estate agents are probably your first, and sometimes only, point of contact when looking at properties in Spain, so they are the obvious choice to ask! You then tend to do a bit of research, and then ask on forums for recommendations, and (....and I do not mean this in any way disparagingly, as the info and advice on here is brilliant!) although personal recommendation is by far the best way to go, there is that element within you that is a bit reluctant to rely on the advice of somebody you have never met, on a subject which is VERY important (no offence intended).

But here is a brilliant point to find out names and recommendations  We also went to meet a few of the people we have been recommended, and I think that is very important...it is no guarantee of their ability, but it is an important element to actually see them face to face to judge how you 'feel' about them, and see them in their natural surroundings ie their offices.

We have also been lucky enough to come into contact with a lot of people in our 18 month search, that either live in Spain, or who have holiday homes/second homes there, and all have the experience of actually buying properties, and also know of others who have too.

Giulia has also been having Spanish lessons in the uk twice a week for the last year..her teacher is Spanish...and that has opened up quite a few contacts via her friends who are Spanish and still own properties there, or again have an invaluable amount of knowledge about Spain in general.

Having said all that, making the decision of which solicitor to actually pick is still something that will have me waking up in the night in a cold sweat!!! ......but hopefully when the time comes we will make the right choice, and I will certainly be making sure that as many things are checked until it is 100% watertight :fingerscrossed:


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

I guess 'independent' could relate to using one solicitor who represents both buyer and seller. Seems alien to most Brits but was (and I assume still is) common in Spain. Saves money of course and as the last one we used was quite happy to openly break the law I guess it doesn't matter too much. (Quickly adds we didn't let her break the law in our case ).

In truth the person who looked after us was the agent who operated from his apartment and advertised in the local paper. He was brilliant and is now 10 years on a friend. Sadly he doesn't operate where we are buying and is semi retired. But as Steve tells of his experiences most agents with shops in spain and even more so those with web sites are next to useless.


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## StevejR1 (May 21, 2013)

I think you might be right there Alborino, I think he means independent of the sellers solicitor(?).....but to be honest, even in the uk, I would never consider using the same solicitor as buyer that the seller is using. There is an obvious clash of interests there, and despite how much you might save, it would be a decision I would not rate as bordering on lunacy anywhere!!


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

That is exactly what it means. 
Never use a solictor, gestor or the agent that is in anyway connected to the seller or sellers agent. In fact many agents think they are solicitors and offer to do the lot for you.
This is a recipe for disaster.

AT least in the UK and elsewhere you will be protected from any shenanigans caused by a conflict of interest, here the only protection you have will be your solicitor and frankly from what I have seen you need to approach it as they will try to screw you over. Even if they aren't trying to they rarely have a clue what they are selling you anyway until your solicitor does the digging.


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

With 30 years ¡in the UK working 'with' solicitors, and in conjugation with the Law Society prosecuting a few dishonest ones, I probably came upon 5 whom I would have employed. Most were ineffective but some positively dangerous regarding their client's interests.

25 years in Spain has not improved my view of the them, and I have chosen never to employ one when buying or selling (including when my son has done so a couple of times). 

Whilst if one has no knowledge or experience, or cannot research what is required, then I would not say go it alone. But if you can research it you may be a lot better off doing it yourself. 

If you do employ one, then do not take it for granted that he/she is competent or that advice is good info and correct.

One cannot know for sure a lawyer is competent. If you do not come unstuck, they may have been lucky that time. It does not guarantee the next client will be lucky. Unfortunately, you can only be sure of their ability when they prove to be incompetent, as they have landed you in trouble, and some clients may take years to discover that, perhaps when they are next selling.


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## StevejR1 (May 21, 2013)

When we first started looking into solicitors we thought that it would be better to have one that was local, working on the basis that he might have local knowledge in what to look out for in different properties, and in local areas with specific issues.......but we have since been advised that the solicitor doesn't have to be that local (..within reason...) and that a better solicitor, that's further away, is a better choice......is that the way to go?


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## StevejR1 (May 21, 2013)

larryzx said:


> With 30 years ¡in the UK working 'with' solicitors, and in conjugation with the Law Society prosecuting a few dishonest ones, I probably came upon 5 whom I would have employed. Most were ineffective but some positively dangerous regarding their client's interests.
> 
> 25 years in Spain has not improved my view of the them, and I have chosen never to employ one when buying or selling (including when my son has done so a couple of times).
> 
> ...



That doesn't inspire confidence!....more sleepless nights for me then! 

When we first started looking into buying in Spain we heard of a method/system of having two legal bodies, a solicitor and someone else (..who I can't remember) acting on your behalf....this way one is checking against the other, and technically if one misses something hopefully the other won't.

This struck me as a good way of causing chaos, and actually making things a whole lot more confusing and risky. With them fighting against each other, rather than being left to (hopefully) just do their job. Has anyone ever heard of doing this, or experienced it, or was it just a fanciful idea?


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

We use one based in Alicante city but she will cover anywhere we are looking which covers all towns within a 45 minute reach, she would probably go further if we needed.


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

Pazcat said:


> We use one based in Alicante city but she will cover anywhere we are looking which covers all towns within a 45 minute reach, she would probably go further if we needed.


All property sales and purchase contract (escrituras) in Spain can only be completed before a notary. That is the same whether one has a solicitor or not, and it is the notary who draws up the contracts. 

A solicitor is not a requirement in Spain nor UK but, in my view, largely the result of the conditioning we have been 'brain-washed' into believing they are necessary. However, they are not a necessity but a choice. 

The same goes for buying or selling anything. 

Most of us would not believe we need to employ one to say buy a car, or the weekly shopping, but we could do so if we so chose.


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## ABERAFON (Aug 15, 2014)

drefach said:


> Hello, no, I have been to Gran Canaria only but I have heard good reports from some people. I probably should visit and stay a little while to get to know Spain. I am unsure of areas that are best suited to us and I am trying to gather as much info as possible from people living there. I do have a friend who owns a property in Spain and I intend speaking with her. We have just moved to another part of Wales and are seriously thinking of a holiday home in Spain where we can spend time enjoying the sun especially in winter. I definitely would not rent it out, it would be for us and the family.


Hi,

If you have not visited Spain, I would advice before spending any cash there I would go and spend 2 months in the type of property you would wish to buy. Get together a checklist of what you would want from the property and area and then identify from that what type of property you would like. Then look across the areas in Spain and choose say 3 that fits your checklist and rent the type of property you want for 2 months in each area, coming back to the UK for a couple of months before returning to the next rental. You also need to research all of the implications of buying a property in Spain, there are many and pay particularly attention to tax and specifically IHT in the area that you want to buy. This is a big decision as once bought you may not be able to resell should your situation change.


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## StevejR1 (May 21, 2013)

larryzx said:


> All property sales and purchase contract (escrituras) in Spain can only be completed before a notary. That is the same whether one has a solicitor or not, and it is the notary who draws up the contracts.
> 
> A solicitor is not a requirement in Spain nor UK but, in my view, largely the result of the conditioning we have been 'brain-washed' into believing they are necessary. However, they are not a necessity but a choice.
> 
> ...


In fairness Larry you are obviously an experienced person, with a legal background. I think most of us would be apprehensive to take on the responsibility of doing the conveyancing on any property, even in the uk.

We tend to use solicitors in the uk, not because it's a legal requirement, but because it is best to employ a firm that knows how to do all the procedures, rather than try and do it yourself, and risk making an expensive and costly mistake.

The problem in Spain, is that the trust you put in a solicitor to do a good job of what they are doing doesn't seem as assured....you're employing a body to safeguard your interests, but are at the same time you are putting them at risk! It is a risk just trying to pick a suitable firm in which to minimise the risk.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

larryzx said:


> All property sales and purchase contract (escrituras) in Spain can only be completed before a notary. That is the same whether one has a solicitor or not, and it is the notary who draws up the contracts.
> 
> A solicitor is not a requirement in Spain nor UK but, in my view, largely the result of the conditioning we have been 'brain-washed' into believing they are necessary. However, they are not a necessity but a choice.
> 
> ...


Believe what you will, a notary offers little in the way of protection. 
The system is broken, it's up to you to make sure you have a legal, workable property to purchase and not anyone else.

Maybe the belief that you don't need a solicitor is exactly why we can't find a single legal property. It's bad advice Larry, especially to new comers who have no or little Spanish and I can guarantee that had they tried to purchase some of the properties we have tried to with just a trip to the notary would be stuck with all kinds of problems relating to their property.
Maybe you should take up conveyancing.


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

Pazcat said:


> Believe what you will, a notary offers little in the way of protection.
> The system is broken, it's up to you to make sure you have a legal, workable property to purchase and not anyone else.
> 
> Maybe the belief that you don't need a solicitor is exactly why we can't find a single legal property. *It's bad advice Larry, especially to new comers who have no or little Spanish* and I can guarantee that had they tried to purchase some of the properties we have tried to with just a trip to the notary would be stuck with all kinds of problems relating to their property.
> Maybe you should take up conveyancing.


Steve I did say "Whilst if one has no knowledge or experience, or cannot research what is required,* then I would not say go it alone.* *But if you can research it you may be a lot better off doing it yourself. *

I believe most of those who are in fear of their properties being demolished, or with other serious problems, did have solicitors. It did not protect them. 

It would be interesting to know, of those who did it themselves, how many wound up with similar problems to those who used a lawyer ! 

I am not a betting man but I know where I would put my money. From what I recall, most worst stories here involve purchases where lawyers were employed.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Pazcat said:


> Believe what you will, a notary offers little in the way of protection.
> The system is broken, it's up to you to make sure you have a legal, workable property to purchase and not anyone else.
> 
> Maybe the belief that you don't need a solicitor is exactly why we can't find a single legal property. It's bad advice Larry, especially to new comers who have no or little Spanish and I can guarantee that had they tried to purchase some of the properties we have tried to with just a trip to the notary would be stuck with all kinds of problems relating to their property.
> Maybe you should take up conveyancing.


No, IMHO, it's not bad advice.

If you want to employ someone who knows the procedures, then employ a Gestor.


In the UK, you don't, generally, employ a solicitor/lawyer but someone who is a specialist in conveyancing. Typically, UK law firms put their most junior person onto conveyancing because it really is very simple just to do lots of research and fill in loads of forms - no law background required (generally).


By-the-way, a point made earlier by Larry was that a solicitor (or lawyer) is an ABOGADO in Spain (see post #5).


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## ABERAFON (Aug 15, 2014)

I have bought and sold in Spain and believe it is the Wild West when buying property. I found a very good person in the Torrox area of the Costa Del Sol who was red hot at picking up problems. I would never buy a property in Spain without getting good advice from someone who knows the system, not necessarily a solicitor, and would always be the 'buyer beware'


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

In the UK properties are generally legal and it's rarely an issue. 
Spain they are not, or they are but you can't do a thing to it, or half of it might need to be demolished or any other number of things.

You can use a gestor or yourself if you are confident enough but then if something goes wrong it is on you, at least with a solicitor you have some legal protection pertaining their actions and for a small fee it's worth it's weight in rocking horse ****.
It is bad advice, on an expat forum where the overwhelming majority of people don't want to get screwed over and don't have the knowledge to protect themselves against it. And going on what I have seen neither town halls, agents(not all), sellers, the Spanish or even solicitors have the slightest clue what is going on either. They can't all be out to screw you so that just leaves ignorance.

Hell it's worth a few hundred quid just for the legwork alone, not everybody has the time to chase up all you need.

By all means go it alone at your peril.


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

snikpoh said:


> ¡
> 
> By-the-way, a point made earlier by Larry was that a solicitor (or lawyer) is an ABOGADO in Spain (see post #5).


I was hoping that Leper would come back and explain what he thought when he said they were different.
Quote_: 2. Employ an independent solicitor (not an abogado) when you decide to buy._

(Just in passing. In UK a solicitor is qualified to do much more, over a greater spectrum, than an abogado in Spain, However, in property transfer, as Snikoh says, it is so simple in both Spain and UK, i.e. that the junior does the actual 'work' in UK, albeit the client pays the fees for a qualified solicitor.)


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

ABERAFON said:


> I have bought and sold in Spain and believe it is the Wild West when buying property. I found a very good person in the Torrox area of the Costa Del Sol who was red hot at picking up problems. I would never buy a property in Spain without getting good advice from someone who knows the system, not necessarily a solicitor, and would always be the 'buyer beware'


I have been thinking about the properties I have bought and sold in Spain, (13 transactions) both for myself and my son.

I recall that in each case where the other party employed a solicitor there were always problems. There were none in the others.

One resulted in me warning the buyer, after a year, that if he did not get the Electric, phone and water contacts transferred to his name (I had offered to help him do it, but he believed his solicitor would do it better for him) that after one more month, I would cancel the contracts still in my name. I explained as I had not cancelled them I was still legally responsible. 

After the month nothing had been done. I cancelled the contracts. The buyer screamed when he realised what I had done. I told him to sue his solicitor. whom he trusted to do a good job !


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

It should be noted that in the course of a year, very many thousands of properties have been bought in Spain with no problems whatsoever.
Of the many people I know who have purchased properties in Spain, not one has encountered any problem.
It's easy to exaggerate the difficulties that may arise.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> It should be noted that in the course of a year, very many thousands of properties have been bought in Spain with no problems whatsoever.
> Of the many people I know who have purchased properties in Spain, not one has encountered any problem.
> It's easy to exaggerate the difficulties that may arise.


..... especially when one doesn't speak the language sufficiently well.


Use a gestor and save money for the same service.

... anyone ever tried suing an abogado in Spain - that's more possible than rocking horse **** or even hens teeth!


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Problem is that not every Gestor is good. They vary in Quality.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

snikpoh said:


> ..... especially when one doesn't speak the language sufficiently well.
> 
> 
> Use a gestor and save money for the same service.
> ...


I have no intention of buying in Spain but if I had, I would do as you suggest, namely use a gestor and my own research and judgment. That's what my son and dil did when they bought many years ago It is what most people I know did.
What they did not do though was to take advice from well-meaning people who may not have the knowledge or experience to be able to offer valuable advice.
I think that is the biggest possible pitfall for newcomers: the 'old hand' who knows everything about everything in Spain. Think about it: would you trust a non-professional's judgment of you were buying in the UK, regardless of language/culture? I spent most of my adult life in the UK, bought, developed and sold properties, used my judgment when appropriate and the services of professionals where necessary. But I wouldn't advise others as to how to go about things.
Spain is not a banana republic. Not every Spanish builder, house vendor, mechanic etc. is out to cheat the unwary immigrant. Of course there are those who will, given the opportunity. People like that lurk in the shadows everywhere.
In my limited experience it's not Spaniards you need to be wary of. It's fellow-Brits.
That was our experience when we first arrived here. Brits and South American immigrants.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Isobella said:


> Problem is that not every Gestor is good. They vary in Quality.


Just like lawyers in the UK.

For over thirty years I used the same firm of solicitors. They acted for me when I divorced, had car accidents, bought and sold property, needed to send 'threatening' letters....Then we used them for our business. When I first used them, it was a small partnership in a country town. As years passed, their reputation grew beyond the town and county even but they still retained a personal relationship with long-standing clients. 
Then, the year before we left the UK, the practice was bought out by a large company. We used them for selling residential and commercial properties from a distance when we lived in Prague and found that our affairs were being handled by someone we had never heard of. Everything proceeded smoothly but I have a feeling that we should have received more of the sale proceeds than we actually did - not much more, not enough to fly back from Prague to sort out.
Our original solicitor operated in Spain through a 'sister' company with qualified Spanish professionals. The new company has an even greater international network. If I were buying here I'd use them.


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## Maureen47 (Mar 27, 2014)

Interesting thread , we have used an abogado , who was recommended by a couple of friends who used him for their Spanish property purchases , he seems to be a good guy who recognised we had done our homework and were asking all the right questions , his fee is very acceptable and he has done all the things we have asked of him and provided us with copies of the all the required docs. You can certainly help yourself by using the formal info available online on the gov websites which give you a step by step guide to the requirements of house purchase and checking on the Spanish sites if you can translate.

It is a roller coaster of a ride and a real learning curve and hence not a decision that should be made quickly, who would make a big purchase like this without ensuring you had mitigated as much risk as possible.

For us for the right reasons its a great time to buy in Spain as long as you are buying a home and not looking to make money fast, we have ended up with a wonderful house which in a different financial climate we would never have been able to afford , making the move to Spain is life changing and requires a lot of effort to get it right !


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## Expatliving (Oct 21, 2013)

I've read through the entire thread with interest. I'm very much in the position of looking for a abagado or solicitor, but there is a level of common sense that must prevail, even when buying in a foreign country.

I'm doing my homework now on the buying process and the area I'm aiming at. I already know of a couple of 'historical' issues with the property I'm aiming at, but I'm also aware that this is very common in Spain ... I can honestly say that when Google Earth arrived it was a game changer. So you've got a nice two bedroom bungalow, roadside, but out the back, you've created a aircraft hangar! But now the authorities can see it ... So, the illegal issues are being highlighted all the time now, because, dare I say it ... Things really were a 'free for all' until Google got involved.

So, what I will insist on from abagado/solicitor are: All documentation translated with both copies signed off by the abagado/solicitor. All 'historical' issues associated with the property and land must be highlighted and clarified. Any previous applications for building permissions to be declared, whether they were successful or not. These must also be dated. Any claims against the vendor, these being land disputes/services etc must be conveyed. The usual searches with regard to building permission prior to erection of the property/flat. The obvious outstanding debts on the property, if any? And lastly clarify that all areas suggested as 'living' areas are precisely that, the reason for this is god forbid you have something like a fire, if somebody was to get hurt whilst sleeping in a converted garage, you wouldn't be insured, unless you had already agreed the change of use with the insurer ... And also notified the local town hall of change of usage? I believe quite a few people give the latter part of that advice a bit of a swerve ...

Oh, 8 years working around lawyers in the city of London and actually taking in advice on property purchase, no matter what country you are in.

And finally, even 'Independent' trading persons should be checked out?


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

> I can honestly say that when Google Earth arrived it was a game changer.


Have you seen goolzoom.es yet?

That gives you an overlay of the properties catastro, tells you if the house is rustic or urban, if a pool has been properly registered or if any outbuildings have been registered to the catastro at the least.
It's a must before visiting any property.

That said the catastro is not the be all and end all of checks but it will give you a fair idea of just how much would need to be fixed before buying.


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## StevejR1 (May 21, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> I have no intention of buying in Spain but if I had, I would do as you suggest, namely use a gestor and my own research and judgment. That's what my son and dil did when they bought many years ago It is what most people I know did.
> What they did not do though was to take advice from well-meaning people who may not have the knowledge or experience to be able to offer valuable advice.
> I think that is the biggest possible pitfall for newcomers: the 'old hand' who knows everything about everything in Spain. Think about it: would you trust a non-professional's judgment of you were buying in the UK, regardless of language/culture? I spent most of my adult life in the UK, bought, developed and sold properties, used my judgment when appropriate and the services of professionals where necessary. But I wouldn't advise others as to how to go about things.
> Spain is not a banana republic. Not every Spanish builder, house vendor, mechanic etc. is out to cheat the unwary immigrant. Of course there are those who will, given the opportunity. People like that lurk in the shadows everywhere.
> ...


I always like your replies mrypg9, you strike me as a sensible chap, down to earth, likeable, and full of common sense 

I hope I'm reading your post right when you suggest that, basically, there is a lot of advice available now, but you can be mislead, even though they are all trying to help?...basically, you need to take it all in, then use your own judgement?

The main problem as I see it, from the view of someone just about to enter into the bear pit, is that as a first time buyer my main concern is that everything is researched, searched, clarified, checked, double checked, triple checked..then checked again!! We want it watertight, and explained.

I think we've learned enough to ask as many relevant questions as reasonably possible, but I would not be confident enough to take on the conveyancing process in Spain (..or anywhere) without thinking I was taking a major risk. Basically all you need to find is a competent solicitor, that takes the purchase as seriously as we do, and does everything we ask of him/her, and everything expected of them....sounds easy, but it simply isn't. Eventually you just have to take some advice, research them, meet them, then make sure they answer any questions you ask of them to look into. It is a choice I'm dreading having to finally make.....

I do also agree that not all those that you encounter in Spain are out to 'do you over'...I find it healthy to assume all might be, and then use my own discretion to decide from my own experience. With the choice of solicitor though it is a big leap of faith.


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## Expatliving (Oct 21, 2013)

Pazcat said:


> Have you seen goolzoom.es yet?
> 
> That gives you an overlay of the properties catastro, tells you if the house is rustic or urban, if a pool has been properly registered or if any outbuildings have been registered to the catastro at the least.
> It's a must before visiting any property.
> ...


Splendid reply! I'll go check ... This forum really is a great source of information.

Cheers


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Just find the house as you normally would in maps and then from the left click the 'Catastro Transparent' option. 
It should give you a red outline around the houses and buildings and then you can click on the property to see the actual catastral reference.

It's very handy.


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## StevejR1 (May 21, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> Our original solicitor operated in Spain through a 'sister' company with qualified Spanish professionals. The new company has an even greater international network. If I were buying here I'd use them.


...would you be prepared to name them?... And what areas do they cover, is it all of Spain?


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## Expatliving (Oct 21, 2013)

Pazcat said:


> Just find the house as you normally would in maps and then from the left click the 'Catastro Transparent' option.
> It should give you a red outline around the houses and buildings and then you can click on the property to see the actual catastral reference.
> 
> It's very handy.


I'm trying to work out what the red lines are for? I can see they outline roads and some tracks, but the house I'm chasing has several outlining the nayas and strangely an internal sort of boundary? Has the menu thingy on the left got an explanation tab? :confused2:


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Well the overlay can be a little bit off but usually not by much, certainly it's good enough to see if the house and pool have been registered.
You shouldn't worry about roads and stuff outside of the property, what is important is if the house has a red outline that matches the shape of the house and the same for the outbuildings and pool, etc..

If you click on the property a reference number comes up, then click on that number and it should give you the details for the plot and a little map with what is declared on the plot.
Things like square meters for buildings and classification of the land.


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## drefach (Dec 31, 2014)

Excellent advice from everyone, will take everything on board and thoroughly do our homework. Thanks...


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Copied this across from another forum-

Recently spoke to a couple who have just retuned to Ireland after a 4 year stint in Spain renting a house, retired so no work. They basically registered for nothing- residency or tax and were never chased up at all for this illegality.

Don't know them that well to ask too many questions about how they got away with this but they're back in Ireland now so unlikely they will be brought to book for their actions


- it seems to show one could live in Spain without major hassle- if you are "cunning"


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## amespana (Nov 10, 2009)

It depends what you mean by registering.It could mean all sorts of things .


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## Expatliving (Oct 21, 2013)

Rabbitcat said:


> Copied this across from another forum-
> 
> Recently spoke to a couple who have just retuned to Ireland after a 4 year stint in Spain renting a house, retired so no work. They basically registered for nothing- residency or tax and were never chased up at all for this illegality.
> 
> ...


Sadly putting two kids into school rules that option out for moi. I would hazard a guess and say that the couple now being in Ireland, would mean the extremes from Spain couldn't be further? Poor sods, that's a very long 7 month winter ...


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

amespana said:


> It depends what you mean by registering.It could mean all sorts of things .


I mean they did not register as living as permanent residents (90 days) nor as tax resident (183 days)


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## Expatliving (Oct 21, 2013)

Rabbitcat said:


> I mean they did not register as living as permanent residents (90 days) nor as tax resident (183 days)


Obviously, without kids ... If you want state schooling you have to sign on as a permanent. Did they go back to the Irish republic as their choice of return?


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

Rabbitcat said:


> Recently spoke to a couple who have just retuned to Ireland after a 4 year stint in Spain renting a house, retired so no work. They basically registered for nothing- residency or tax and were never chased up at all for this illegality.


Presumably had they declared themselves to Spanish authorities they would have paid very little if any tax anyway. And I assume they asked little from Spain and paid local taxes through their rent. Hardly the crime of the century.

I think they would be more likely to be a target if they had actually stolen something rather than just stuck two fingers up at the system


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## larryzx (Jul 2, 2014)

Rabbitcat said:


> I mean they did not register as living as permanent residents (90 days) nor as tax resident (183 days)


They are not alone in not their dishonesty for not registering etc. Many think laws they do not like don't apply to them and often get away with it. However, as the people you refer to were here over the 183 days then they did become tax resident (one does not register to do that under 183 rule). Therefore, if the authorities do discover they were here, then they are I believe liable for the non declarations, any taxes due and the penalties. 

The same type of failing to declare applies to the overseas wealth declaration, the 720. Only about 5 % of those who should have declared apparently did so. Two years on and they think they are OK, however, a Scandinavian tax lawyer here, tells me that Hacienda have started to investigate, with the ready assistance of the tax authorities in the various EU countries. He says he has a couple of Finnish clients who are being questioned about property they own in Helsinki which they did not declare.

If that is correct, maybe a lot more chickens will be coming home to roust. (The minimum fine for not declaring is I believe 10,000 euros plus 5,000 euros for each item not declared and up to 150% of the total value of the assets not declared. One might think with those penalties the system will take the trouble to follow up the 95%).

PS. Rabitcat: If the people you mention owned property in Ireland at the time, then the 720 declaration also applied.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I get the feeling their case is far from unique!!!!!!


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## StevejR1 (May 21, 2013)

Although there is a lot of red tape applied in Spain which does seem to make things a little laborious, I do think that sometimes some people who move to Spain think that the taxation system is something that is implemented by the Spanish government to fleece the masses......when in truth a very similiar taxation system applies when you live in the UK, it's just that it's accepted when you live here..not liked, but accepted.

Things like non declaration of assets for taxation is equally as illegal here as it is in Spain....it's as if it need not be taken seriously in Spain???


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## alborino (Dec 13, 2014)

The declaration thing does raise some interesting questions. I'll be seeking advise on the following and will happily share but if anyone has any views that might raise questions I can put then please jump in.

In the UK an ISA means you do not need to declare the complications within (numerous funds, shares, dividends, costs, etc.). It is a wrapper. Do you declare the ISA as an asset to the spanish authorities? How do you value it? Clearly it has no relevance till you sell but when you do how do you calculate profit (thinking inflation - UK or Spanish)?

Same with a SIPP or other such wrappers.

I also own half of a limited company. It conveniently declares zero profit each year. Has anyone been in this position and had hassle? Clearly giving a value to a limited company is difficult and in any case is a being in its own right. But my 50 shares could be deemed to have a value. But being a software/services company to assess value could take seven accountants with seven quills writing for half a year (please forgive Lewis C ).

Any thoughts welcome as I expect to discuss this with our advisors in early February and for what they charge I'd like to have all my questions prepared


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