# Fuel poverty in New Zealand



## carosapien

I thought this may be useful as we're discussing the cost of living at the moment.










Fuel poverty in the land of plenty – Commentary – New Zealand Listener



> Soaring electricity prices are causing more New Zealanders to struggle to heat cold, damp, unhealthy houses.
> 
> In July 2010, five-and-a-half-month-old Roretana Holland was found dead in the bed he was sharing with his four-year-old sister, at his parents’ home in Warspite Ave, Porirua. The coroner for the case, Ian Smith, warned once more about the dangers of cot death when sleeping arrangements are shared. Social deprivation, smoking in the household and excessive alcohol consumption were all there. But one part of the deprivation picture the coroner didn’t mention was why the children were sleeping together in the first place.
> 
> The four children shared a bedroom because the family had only a single oil heater to keep warm. The Holland household was one of the estimated 400,000 in New Zealand whose members are living in fuel poverty, where heating the home to a comfortable temperature eats up more than 10% of income. Pressure mounts to either skimp on heating or miss out on other essentials, instead.
> 
> The Federation of Family Budgeting Services reports that at this time of year, many financially stressed families are in arrears on their electricity and gas bills, as the high cost of the cold months hits home. Says chief executive Raewyn Fox, “We do seem to have had a lot of people through our doors this winter facing disconnection.” In Dunedin, the Budget Advisory Service reports its clients often come in with monthly bills of $350-400, with some as high as $600.
> 
> New research from the University of Otago’s Housing and Health Research Programme has found fuel poverty soared during the decade to May 2011, in which electricity prices rose 87% to 26c a kilowatt-hour. In 2003, 10-14% of New Zealand households were estimated to be living in fuel poverty. By 2008 that had jumped to 25%.
> 
> “We found that fuel poverty is a major issue in New Zealand, particularly for people on low incomes, and it’s a problem that’s growing,” says lead author Philippa Howden-Chapman, a professor at the university’s Department of Public Health. Once upon a time, keeping a cold home was a badge of stoicism for the hardy Kiwi. Now it’s becoming clearer a cold home is a health hazard, as low living temperatures put the body under stress in a variety of ways, including increased rates of asthma and respiratory infections. In New Zealand, cold homes probably play a role in the 1600 extra deaths that occur each year in winter but not in summer, says Howden-Chapman.
> 
> How so? This “excess winter mortality”, as it is called, isn’t found everywhere. “It doesn’t occur in very cold places like Sweden or Siberia, it doesn’t occur in Canada. It occurs in temperate countries, and the most famous examples are New Zealand, Portugal, Greece and Scotland. And they have in common that they’re basically temperate countries but the housing is built as though they were much warmer countries.
> 
> “Being inside a house where people are actually shivering, where they can see dragon breath, where their breath is condensing, makes the body work much harder in terms of reduced immunity and more stress on the circulatory system if they have a compromised circulatory system. “We know it has an impact on older people’s circulation in particular, because the blood gets more viscous and is more likely to form plaques, and people are more likely to have atrial fibrillation, or stroke and malfunctioning of their heart.”
> 
> It seems plausible that cold homes are partly to blame for extra winter deaths, Howden-Chapman says, because the home is where most people spend the most time, particularly the elderly. Fuel poverty is a concept originally developed in Britain in the 1980s and is based on a healthy home temperature being 21°C for living areas, and 18°C for bedrooms. The Otago-led research modelled electricity costs needed to keep a 100sq m house at those temperatures in different parts of the country.
> 
> Understandably, fuel poverty is running at higher levels in colder parts of the country, affecting an estimated 47% of households in Dunedin, 40% in Christchurch, 24% in Wellington and 14% in Auckland. Among Western countries, some of the worst rates of fuel poverty are found in parts of the UK: 27% in Scotland and 44% in Northern Ireland.
> 
> As part of other research, Howden-Chapman has visited many homes that are very cold, about 8-10°C. “They’re unheard of temperatures in other parts of the world for inside housing. That’s when your body has to work particularly hard to keep warm. Shivering is your body trying to generate some heat to keep your organs warm,” she says. In the past five years new evidence has emerged that viruses last longer in colder temperatures. And in homes where everyone is clustered in a single warm room, the chance of sharing bugs rises. Cold homes are a particular issue for asthmatics. One in five New Zealand children has asthma.
> 
> The jump in fuel poverty in New Zealand appears driven by a troika of causes – low incomes, rising electricity prices and New Zealand’s crummy, badly insulated housing stock.
> 
> “Real wages are dropping for a proportion of the population, and unemployment is still relatively high,” says Howden-Chapman. “We have large houses compared with the rest of the OECD, and we’re making good progress with insulating them, but we still have a long way to go. And the cost of electricity in particular has been rising exponentially in the residential market.
> 
> “Sadly, those on the lowest incomes pay the greatest proportion of their income – almost 13% – on household energy, yet we know that houses in New Zealand are still cold and damp with all the problems that ensue from that.” Often it is the homes of the poorest that are the worst-insulated and therefore the most expensive to heat. Since 1996, a series of insulation subsidies have been offered, most recently in the Warm Up New Zealand programme. Under this latest one, more than 100,000 of the 900,000 homes estimated to have had substandard insulation have been upgraded so far. However, rental properties are under-represented in the Warm Up programme, making up only 15% of the numbers, even though they are eligible for a 60% subsidy if the tenant has a low income. A third of all households are rentals.
> 
> Christchurch second*hand trader Paul Stephenson’s 130-year-old weatherboard cottage is one of those that are hard to heat and have few protections against the cold. The floorboards are close to the earth, the walls are unlined. Until he got a heat pump five years ago under a council scheme, it used to get so cold that sometimes ice would form on the inside of the panes. He left a DVD on the floor in its case one night, and by morning it had cracked in the overnight cold.
> 
> He gets fewer coughs and colds now, but Stephenson is still cautious about how much heat he uses, with his most recent power bill just $140 for a month. “I dress like I’m in Siberia. I have long johns, woollen vests and jumpers.” During recent snowfall he added scarves and gloves. “It’s just so cold at night in these old wooden houses.”


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## walshdon

It has been a shock since moving here five weeks ago from uk where double glazing and central heating is in every home, we are in rented house with no double glazing, no heating but has got DVS system so don't get condensation. I have hot water bottles, oil heater and electric blanket. I haven't had my first electric bill yet but have been conscious of how much I use as been told expensive. After a year of renting I know we will be buying or building and heating system will be top of my list.


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## inhamilton

carosapien said:


> I thought this may be useful as we're discussing the cost of living at the moment.


Personally, I can't see the usefulness. I can get you to name any country in the world and google for similar newspaper stories of poverty within that country (including England). Immigrants to NZ will generally have a pretty good standard of living (in my opinion - based on what I know of here and my travels through other countries) as most will be receiving a good salary (they generally have to in order to get in).


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## carosapien

walshdon said:


> It has been a shock since moving here five weeks ago from uk where double glazing and central heating is in every home, we are in rented house with no double glazing, no heating but has got DVS system so don't get condensation. I have hot water bottles, oil heater and electric blanket. I haven't had my first electric bill yet but have been conscious of how much I use as been told expensive. After a year of renting I know we will be buying or building and heating system will be top of my list.


A very sensible plan it is too, if you're building new at least you'll have the opportunity to look around at the most cost effective options. Something as simple as orientating your house to face north can make such a difference, as can planting a wind break to shield from southerly winds.

There's not that much can beat a good log burner IMO and if you can get a supply of good cheap/free wood you're onto a winner.


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## Krazyspence

So how easy is it to get permissions etc.. to build your own house in NZ? its something iv always thought about but doubt id ever be able to do in the UK so gave up on it here!

I know straw is a great thing to build your house out of, if its packed tightly enough you dont get pest problems - the insulation is high quality and not messy at all once its all together! (watched far too many documentries)


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## walshdon

They are sold under the title sections and think they must have building permission before they can be put on sale.


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## Song_Si

^^ straw house
I too have seen documentaries on these types of buildings, and I have just the thing for you - on your camping trip between Wellington and Pitangirua Pinnacles you can pass thru Martinborough and stay at the Straw House Lodge ! 
I've never seen one apart from on tv - there's a company here that has an agent in NZ, also this one









The Short Straw Café, Silverstream, Wellington - a café built from straw


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## topcat83

Krazyspence said:


> So how easy is it to get permissions etc.. to build your own house in NZ? its something iv always thought about but doubt id ever be able to do in the UK so gave up on it here!
> 
> I know straw is a great thing to build your house out of, if its packed tightly enough you dont get pest problems - the insulation is high quality and not messy at all once its all together! (watched far too many documentries)


Many people build from scratch - we did all the investigation to do just that - then found a pre-built two year old house so it never happened! 

NZ is well set up for BYO (that's 'Build Your Own') - and also if you want to attempt to go off-grid. We have huge water tanks, septic tanks, and 3 Kw solar electricity on our roof.


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## Krazyspence

Song_SI : Thanks for that link too! im going to need a map to keep track of all these places to visit!! I definately saw a documentary about a guy who built his house from straw and was amazed at the benefits.. should be used more often! 


Topcat : Sounds like a great idea! Kind of what I want to do.. as long as im not too far off the grid that I cant get the internet for communicating with the family in England! something to look into!


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## topcat83

Krazyspence said:


> Song_SI : Thanks for that link too! im going to need a map to keep track of all these places to visit!! I definately saw a documentary about a guy who built his house from straw and was amazed at the benefits.. should be used more often!
> 
> 
> Topcat : Sounds like a great idea! Kind of what I want to do.. as long as im not too far off the grid that I cant get the internet for communicating with the family in England! something to look into!


We have a better internet connection here than we did on Bucklands Beach peninsula. Apparently the guy down the road used to be something big at Telecom!


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## Kiakaha_Chch

That article doesn't surprise me one bit, in fact its a portion of the reason why my husband and I left Christchurch for Canada. My entire life I have always lived in freezing cold mouldy drafty housing and recently - rediculous rent hikes in an earthquake damaged house. It just wasn't worth it. And Ive also had asthma my entire life and if it weren't for the flu vacine my life would be a misery 9 months of the year.
My husband on the other hand grew up poor to middle class in Winnipeg, got his first job at a Shell service station where the winter tempteratures were -60 C, yet he managed to afford a nice cheap flat on his own that had double glazing, wall and ceiling AND underfloor insulation. Last year he even lived in a cheap flat with copper pipes with hot water under the floor! A luxury Ive never heard of in NZ! 

Guess whose moving to Canada?


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## waterford viking

inhamilton said:


> Personally, I can't see the usefulness. I can get you to name any country in the world and google for similar newspaper stories of poverty within that country (including England). Immigrants to NZ will generally have a pretty good standard of living (in my opinion - based on what I know of here and my travels through other countries) as most will be receiving a good salary (they generally have to in order to get in).


Spoken like a true kiwi.....trust me if you come from europe where housing is insulated, ventilated and has double glazing or even triple glazing as is the norm now in alot of places then you will be dumbfounded at the crap that kiwis live in. Trailers come to mind. From what I know of living in nz myself and family were never so sick all the time from coughs colds general illness from dealing with the dreadful living conditions there. ( we had a brand new house which still amounted to crap)....starjumps and longjohns to keep warm...PLEASE...gimme a break nz, it's the 21st century.


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## Krazyspence

TopCat - Very lucky then!! im guessing the internet connection you have there is better than most places in NZ!


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## anski

waterford viking said:


> Spoken like a true kiwi.....trust me if you come from europe where housing is insulated, ventilated and has double glazing or even triple glazing as is the norm now in alot of places then you will be dumbfounded at the crap that kiwis live in. Trailers come to mind. From what I know of living in nz myself and family were never so sick all the time from coughs colds general illness from dealing with the dreadful living conditions there. ( we had a brand new house which still amounted to crap)....starjumps and longjohns to keep warm...PLEASE...gimme a break nz, it's the 21st century.


True there are houses in NZ that are inadequate for the weather but I still remember England 7 the winter of 1978/79 (one of those severe winters) . I went to visit my mother who lived in a council house. No insulation, no double glazing, outside toilet & 3 bar gas fire in living room only. Get the picture.
Temperature was below freezing. I have never felt so cold & sick in my life. My mother went down with pneumonia & died.

I cannot say I enjoyed my visit, it was just before Margaret Thatcher was elected & the country was chaotic with strikes, no transport, no salt or gritting of roads & black ice everywhere. Fortunately I had extended my car hire otherwise I would not have been able to get to Heathrow.

Many of you are too young to remember what old houses in UK were like pre central heating & double glazing but life was certainly not pleasant in those days, however I agree with the UK's weather you certainly need it.
Comparing NZ to the UK or Europe is like apples to pears as the only parts of NZ that resemble these in terms of weather is the South Island.


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## carosapien

Are you saying that New Zealand is like Britain was 40 years ago? I'd agree with that.

My in-laws have been in their 1960s built house since 1972.

Not long after they moved in they had cavity wall and loft insulation installed and replaced the gas central heating boiler with a more fuel efficient gas version. They got rid of the coal hole and turned it into a laundry room.

In the early 80s they had good quality Everest double glazing installed, it had multi-point locking and was internally glazed. It was good enough to keep out an attempted break in 20 years later as well as keep the house warm and draught free.

They had a gas fire in the lounge which lasted until about 2 years ago when they decided to get something that didn't have a pilot flame.

Having a gas fire in the lounge room is still a novelty in New Zealand as many homes don't even have a reticulated gas supply.


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## anski

carosapien said:


> Are you saying that New Zealand is like Britain was 40 years ago? I'd agree with that.
> 
> My in-laws have been in their 1960s built house since 1972.
> 
> Not long after they moved in they had cavity wall and loft insulation installed and replaced the gas central heating boiler with a more fuel efficient gas version. They got rid of the coal hole and turned it into a laundry room.
> 
> In the early 80s they had good quality Everest double glazing installed, it had multi-point locking and was internally glazed. It was good enough to keep out an attempted break in 20 years later as well as keep the house warm and draught free.
> 
> They had a gas fire in the lounge which lasted until about 2 years ago when they decided to get something that didn't have a pilot flame.
> 
> Having a gas fire in the lounge room is still a novelty in New Zealand as many homes don't even have a reticulated gas supply.



The point I was trying to make is when so many Brits sling off about the NZ houses & lack of heating was that it was not that very long ago it was like that in many old homes in the UK where the winters are more severe.

NZ winters in many parts of the North Island are nowhere near as severe or as long as the UK.

We bought our 1931 double brick built house in Auckland 11 years ago from a couple in their 80's whom had lived in the house all their married life without insulation & just a fire in the lounge, & we experienced discomfort our first winter there.

However since then we have installed insulation & gas central heating throughout & lovely & cosy now. Keep in mind some people cannot afford the outlay.


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## Song_Si

carosapien said:


> Having a gas fire in the lounge room is still a novelty in New Zealand as many homes don't even have a reticulated gas supply.


don't know where you live - but natural gas has been readily available in some parts since the 1970s - I know we had gas cooking and two gas heaters one in each lounge in my childhood days in Taranaki - where the first big oil/gas finds were, and gradually the pipelines extended throughout much of the north island, plus the option of the LPG cylinders for those not on the pipeline. 

Just over 20%, 350,000 out of 1.6m NZ homes are connected to gas. 



> How many NZ homes/buildings already use gas?
> Around 350,000 homes across the country are connected to gas. Some 120,000-130,000 properties have LPG twin-pack cylinders, while over 220,000 homes and small businesses use natural gas. And that doesn’t count the hundreds of thousands of homes that use LPG cabinet heaters, nor the number big businesses that use gas for a variety of space and water heating, and process purposes.


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## anski

Song_Si said:


> don't know where you live - but natural gas has been readily available in some parts since the 1970s - I know we had gas cooking and two gas heaters one in each lounge in my childhood days in Taranaki - where the first big oil/gas finds were, and gradually the pipelines extended throughout much of the north island, plus the option of the LPG cylinders for those not on the pipeline.
> 
> Just over 20%, 350,000 out of 1.6m NZ homes are connected to gas.



AND so much cheaper than electricity, I have gas infinity hot water, cooking & central heating. Would not be without my gas & only cost $3,000 to connect to gas supply & installation & supply of gas infinity water heater a few years ago.


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## Weta

anski said:


> The point I was trying to make is when so many Brits sling off about the NZ houses & lack of heating was that *it was not that very long ago* it was like that in many old homes in the UK where the winters are more severe.


The only point you made was a reference to the winter of discontent, that is more than half a lifetime away for many people.  I am old enough to remember it well enough, my parents had gas central heating in 1971 and they were not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination. 

In many ways when it comes to home comforts then I would have to agree NZ is stuck in the 1970s, the world has moved on whilst NZ was sleeping and is only just waking up to the idea of heating at the touch of a button. Aside from the affordabilty issues, being martyrs to the cold and damp conditions seems to be a national NZ pastime and is reflected, I feel, in the general well-being and disposition of large percentage of the population.


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## Weta

Song_Si said:


> Just over 20%, 350,000 out of 1.6m NZ homes are connected to gas.


120,000 to 130,000 of those are LPG bottled gas which to my mind does not compute as being 'connected to gas' as your quote suggested. It's really nothing to write home or get excited about, people in caravans and trailer parks often have better facilities and services than NZ homes. :confused2:


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## carosapien

anski said:


> The point I was trying to make is when so many Brits sling off about the NZ houses & lack of heating was that it was not that very long ago it was like that in many old homes in the UK where the winters are more severe.
> 
> NZ winters in many parts of the North Island are nowhere near as severe or as long as the UK.
> 
> We bought our 1931 double brick built house in Auckland 11 years ago from a couple in their 80's whom had lived in the house all their married life without insulation & just a fire in the lounge, & we experienced discomfort our first winter there.
> 
> However since then we have installed insulation & gas central heating throughout & lovely & cosy now. Keep in mind some people cannot afford the outlay.


40 years, that was long ago.

Britain has progressed leaps and bounds since then and New Zealand hasn't. 



> Keep in mind some people cannot afford the outlay


That's exactly my point. 

Read back through the link I gave in the first post of this thread and you'll see the proportion of households that are affected by fuel poverty in New Zealand.



> Understandably, fuel poverty is running at higher levels in colder parts of the country, affecting an estimated 47% of households in Dunedin, 40% in Christchurch, 24% in Wellington and 14% in Auckland. Among Western countries, some of the worst rates of fuel poverty are found in parts of the UK: 27% in Scotland and 44% in Northern Ireland.
> 
> As part of other research, Howden-Chapman has visited many homes that are very cold, about 8-10°C. “They’re unheard of temperatures in other parts of the world for inside housing. That’s when your body has to work particularly hard to keep warm. Shivering is your body trying to generate some heat to keep your organs warm,” she says. In the past five years new evidence has emerged that viruses last longer in colder temperatures. And in homes where everyone is clustered in a single warm room, the chance of sharing bugs rises. Cold homes are a particular issue for asthmatics. One in five New Zealand children has asthma.


This is nothing to do with the relative severeity of winters in New Zealand compared to other countries, it's about internal living conditions and the effects they have on health.


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## Song_Si

I have removed four off-topic posts

Please keep posts in this, and any, thread on-topic, also please think about your posts prior to submitting - is it 'with respect, and without insult or personal attack' ?

Reminder on Forum Rules


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## Weta

> "If you want to set up a boarding kennel or a cattery you have to satisfy a local body that it is suitable for cats or dogs, that they'll be healthy and happy. But if you want to rent a house out to a low-income family with little kids, you can rent them a cardboard box."


Shivers: Minimum insulation standards a must (+competition) - National - NZ Herald News


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## carosapien

Weta said:


> Shivers: Minimum insulation standards a must (+competition) - National - NZ Herald News


Wow that article says a million New Zealand homes are uninsulated, I know there are lots out there but didn't realise it was so high 

That young Christchurch couple and their baby are paying $340 a week for their uninsulated home and their last monthly power bill was $730.

I wonder if people in England would be willing to pay £705 a month rent for a home like that and then £378 for a month's electricity?

No wonder fuel poverty is such a problem in New Zealand when you see figures like those.


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## inhamilton

carosapien said:


> I wonder if people in England would be willing to pay £705 a month rent for a home like that and then £378 for a month's electricity?


No offence, but aren't you living here? Are you living in a home like that?


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## waterford viking

Weta said:


> The only point you made was a reference to the winter of discontent, that is more than half a lifetime away for many people.  I am old enough to remember it well enough, my parents had gas central heating in 1971 and they were not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination.
> 
> In many ways when it comes to home comforts then I would have to agree NZ is stuck in the 1970s, the world has moved on whilst NZ was sleeping and is only just waking up to the idea of heating at the touch of a button. Aside from the affordabilty issues, being martyrs to the cold and damp conditions seems to be a national NZ pastime and is reflected, I feel, in the general well-being and disposition of large percentage of the population.


I so agree with you on this, what is it with the kiwi mentality? Please nz move forward to the next century and for gods sake put some shoes on the kids feet....


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## topcat83

waterford viking said:


> I so agree with you on this, what is it with the kiwi mentality? Please nz move forward to the next century and for gods sake put some shoes on the kids feet....


Ah - dragging a year-old post over the coals again, eh?

Fortunately I've seen the attitude to insulated and heated houses move substantially in the right direction in the 7 years I've been here. New houses are great! Insulated and warm.

Not sure why NZ needs to move to the 22nd century though - there's a lot of this one left


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## Andrew East

Building standards have come on leaps and bounds in the last few years I am pleased to say and insulation standards for new builds in New Zealand are currently higher than in Australia.

The problem isn't so much with the new houses as with the old. 



> One million New Zealand homes, more
> than two out of three, were built before
> minimum insulation was required in 1977.
> In 2001, one in four (300,000) had no insulation,
> and about half are only partly insulated.


I owned an old villa and called it Villhalla for the first two years. Then I got a loan to put in insulation, ripped out the plasterboard and re-lined the walls, re-wired it and put in extra sockets for wall heaters. Fitted underfloor and loft insulation, heat recovery system and pellet burner. It cost me $15,000 and there was no way I was ever going to recoup it on sale of the house. However you cannot put a price on having a warm home and healthy family which was my primary objective. It was money well spent.


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## topcat83

Andrew East said:


> Building standards have come on leaps and bounds in the last few years I am pleased to say and insulation standards for new builds in New Zealand are currently higher than in Australia.
> 
> The problem isn't so much with the new houses as with the old.


I couldn't agree more with you on this one. The older houses can be more like large garden sheds than houses (IMHO). And until recently most NZers thought that having an uninsulated, single-glazed house with very little heating was the norm. Fortunately attitudes have changed substantially. 



> I owned an old villa and called it Villhalla for the first two years. Then I got a loan to put in insulation, ripped out the plasterboard and re-lined the walls, re-wired it and put in extra sockets for wall heaters. Fitted underfloor and loft insulation, heat recovery system and pellet burner. It cost me $15,000 and there was no way I was ever going to recoup it on sale of the house. However you cannot put a price on having a warm home and healthy family which was my primary objective. It was money well spent.


Here's a link to the Government website about the grants you can currently get for insulation: EECA Energywise and to Auckland Council's (which seems to have a much higher grant available - $5k) Retrofit your home


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## waterford viking

top cat as usual you see only 1 opinion and that is your one.....i can reply to a post if it is a year old surely? i did'nt realise that there was a time limit on responses? And i'm pretty sure that i am entitled to my opinion also. I have lived in a new home in nz....they are'nt all that....but I guess it just depends on what we are all used to. I was brought up in a house that was centrally heated, yes, actually heat through out the home with out bringing fan heaters from one room to another....amazing huh? so I guess from what I came from the housing in nz is pretty poor in comparison. Maybe you did'nt have the home comforts growing up that I was used to and as a result see nothing wrong with the housing. If that is your opinion then you are indeed entitled to it...but please let others have theirs....after all why be a moderator if you cannot be objective? The shoe comment I made is a valid one also....but then again maybe you had none growing up so saw nothing wrong with that either. so please keep the snide remarks to yourself if others dare to have an opinion.....i will wait to see if you are tempted to remove my remark from this forum because it does'nt comply with you....get over yourself and see that others are entitled to speak their minds...


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## waterford viking

topcat83 said:


> Ah - dragging a year-old post over the coals again, eh?
> 
> Fortunately I've seen the attitude to insulated and heated houses move substantially in the right direction in the 7 years I've been here. New houses are great! Insulated and warm.
> 
> Not sure why NZ needs to move to the 22nd century though - there's a lot of this one left


I don't remember saying anything about the 22nd century.... i quite simply meant that nz was stuck in the last century and needed to catch up with the rest of the world...pity you fail to read the post incorrectly...i guess you were just in a big rush to stick your opinion in our faces...


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## topcat83

waterford viking said:


> I don't remember saying anything about the 22nd century.... i quite simply meant that nz was stuck in the last century and needed to catch up with the rest of the world...pity you fail to read the post incorrectly...i guess you were just in a big rush to stick your opinion in our faces...


Pity you failed to read _your_ post as it reads to others before you posted it, actually! 

It says (quote) '_...Please nz move forward to the next century..._' - and as we're in the 21st century then the next century is the 22nd.

I knew exactly what it _meant_ to say - but it didn't! Hence my tongue in cheek comment.

Anyway - in many things, it's the fact that NZ _is_ like I remember the UK of my childhood that is why I like it here. That doesn't mean there aren't some things I don't like - the standard of insulation in the older houses being one of them - but on the whole there are more good things than bad.

NZ is also ahead of the game in many things, too. We were the first country to give women the vote (all I see in the UK is women's rights in some areas of the country going backwards at the moment), and we had a form of EFTPOS (plastic cards for use in money machines and in shops) way before the UK.

BTW, how's Canada? I see you made the move...


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## escapedtonz

topcat83 said:


> Here's a link to the Government website about the grants you can currently get for insulation: EECA Energywise and to Auckland Council's (which seems to have a much higher grant available - $5k) Retrofit your home


Good link for people considering insulating their homes and the likely assistance thay can get from the government.

However, please be aware that this may not be the best option!
The insulating contractors that are working with the government with respect to these scheme's are reportedly completely fleecing the system and way overcharging for their services, so please check as it is likely a person could do the work themselves way cheaper than what it would cost through the scheme. 
:boxing:


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## waterford viking

topcat83 said:


> Pity you failed to read _your_ post as it reads to others before you posted it, actually!
> 
> It says (quote) '_...Please nz move forward to the next century..._' - and as we're in the 21st century then the next century is the 22nd.
> 
> I knew exactly what it _meant_ to say - but it didn't! Hence my tongue in cheek comment.
> 
> Anyway - in many things, it's the fact that NZ _is_ like I remember the UK of my childhood that is why I like it here. That doesn't mean there aren't some things I don't like - the standard of insulation in the older houses being one of them - but on the whole there are more good things than bad.
> 
> NZ is also ahead of the game in many things, too. We were the first country to give women the vote (all I see in the UK is women's rights in some areas of the country going backwards at the moment), and we had a form of EFTPOS (plastic cards for use in money machines and in shops) way before the UK.
> 
> BTW, how's Canada? I see you made the move...


Yes please move forward nz to the next century...it's behind the rest of the world...dunno what you find so confusing about all that....Canada is fine...I see you went to the bother of having a check....we were warm all last winter in our home despite minus 35 degrees. incredible how some countries can manage to build homes that people can actually live in comfortably..... good luck to you and I hope that the eftpos card keeps you warm come winter..


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## topcat83

waterford viking said:


> Yes please move forward nz to the next century...it's behind the rest of the world...dunno what you find so confusing about all that....Canada is fine...I see you went to the bother of having a check....we were warm all last winter in our home despite minus 35 degrees. incredible how some countries can manage to build homes that people can actually live in comfortably..... good luck to you and I hope that the eftpos card keeps you warm come winter..


I'm really glad that Canada is suiting you - everyone has to find their own place where they are happy. It does surprise me, however, how many people stay so bitter about past events even though their life has moved on. IMHO the only people who lose out are the ones that remain bitter.

Without sounding like a cracked record - New Zealand _can_ build homes that people can actually live in comfortably. We all know that the older houses were not so good, but the new building code means that all new houses _are_ insulated. Yesterday was one of the wettest days I can remember, but with a bit of input from our heat pump we stayed at a toasty 23 degrees.


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## jnbates

Rant Alert! 

This topic weighs on my mind as the differences between comfortable Canadian homes and chilly new New Zealand homes are dramatic indeed.

We bought a brand new house less than a year ago, so it is built to the current build-standard regarding double-glazing and insulation requirements (Hamilton, in middle of North Island). It is about 162 sq. m living space, north-facing, and has a heat pump. We use it moderately because we're an energy-conscious family and want to make the most of the sun exposure when we can. Even so, it is cold by comparison to our ten-year-old Canadian home, in ambient temperatures where it shouldn't be so. 

Assertions that NZ build requirements have come a long way in the last decade may be true, but they don't reflect how far from the mark they were to start with. Coming a long way from so far off means that, while improved, it is still far behind what it should be to make the most of the monthly outlay that is necessary to provide heat energy to be minimally comfortable. 

I come from a place where minimum insulation standards for residential buildings are R12 outer walls and R30 ceilings, and that is actually among the lower requirements amongst the Canadian provinces (others range from R20 to R26 wall and R30 to R40 ceiling). Central forced-air gas heating and three levels of living space totalling just over 300 sq. m. In the winters it was kept at 19*C daytime and 18*C overnight, and it was basically t-shirt-and-sweats comfortable on the above-grade levels but noticeably colder in the basement.

In the winter and on non-sunny days, this new New Zealand house feels like our basement did. Wall insulation requirements here are R1.9 for the walls (total insulation value of wall-build-materials and insulation itself) and R2.3 for the ceiling. Doesn't stop cold from radiating through the hollow metal front door or cold attic-space air from dropping down into the living space through unsealed light fixtures (sealed in airtight plastic pockets in previous house). Heck, there isn’t even a partition such as plywood between the outside of the timber framing and the brick veneer – just a barrier wrap. The amount of outside noise that transmits though to the inside is surprising.

I could go further by providing a detailed breakdown of the electrical and gas energy used to heat each place, but the short story is that it uses about the same amount of energy to heat each square metre of living space. That's too bad, because this environment is so much less harsh than Canada's.

Also, even though I say we're using about the same amount of energy to heat it (per unit area), it's not being heated to the same level of comfort. If we were to keep it heated to where we were as comfortable inside our home as we were accustomed to in Canada, the heat would be on much more than it is now and I wouldn't be layering up with sweaters that are constantly required inside the house. Still, Kiwis that enter the house quite often comment about how warm it is.

Add to that that the cost of energy is very high in comparison. Electricity is less than 9 cents/kWhr in Alberta while it's over 26 cents here - almost 3 times higher. There is even more disparity between the gas prices: 1.29 cents/kWhr in Alberta vs 8.9 cents here - over 6 times as much. Alberta does have slightly lower energy costs than typical in the country, but only by 20% or so - not multiple times less.

Fine - regional differences; but when reportedly 75% of NZ's electricity is from renewable resources why are electricity costs so high? Topic for another thread.

The point is, the people here have accepted for far too long that it's okay to be uncomfortable and unhealthy INSIDE what should be your sanctuary from the elements. Building standards have been incrementally improved, but the fundamental concept that to make a comfortable and healthy living space for yourself you have to isolate it from the environment and then manage it appropriately (clean heat source, air distribution, dehumidifying as necessary) has not been recognized/implemented by the majority. Cripes, in our home shopping we came across places less than ten years old that had flue-less wall-mounted gas heaters that exhausted into the room! Purposefully putting poisonous gas into your home is one thing, but products of combustion also include a lot of moisture which results in mould problems. The only reason more people haven’t died from them is because the houses are so dang porous and the exhaust gases find ways to drift out while new cold air rushes in to support the combustion of more gas in the stupid heater. 

Money spent on improvements to keep heat inside the home would come back fairly quickly in reduction of utility costs that are currently spent to throw heat inside a house and have it hemorrhage out the walls, floor and ceiling to the outside again. Never mind the payback calculations: being comfortable in your own place is its own value. 

Sorry for the ‘Too Much To Read’ rant. It’s been on my mind for a while then I saw this thread.

Immigrants: find a newer home when you get here! LOL


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## jawnbc

*another Canuck perspective on NZ fuel and the like*

I agree with JNBates completely.

It is silly for migrants to come to a new country and try to recreate the old one. It's equally silly for locals to discount the ideas of newcomers because they're from away. The cold reality is that kiwis have come to accept inferior standards for building, as well as being gouged for all sorts of things--including energy. 

We live in a 15 year old apartment near the Auckland CBD. We have other apartments on every single side of us (above, below, left and right), and our other two walls are an exterior one and one adjacent to the hallway of our building. The lovely balcony doors are singled glazed, as are the half height windows in the bedrooms. Unless these are replaced, the only ways to make the place more energy efficient would be to plastic seal them or get heavy floor to ceiling drapes--and leave them closed most of the time.

We had an apartment in Vancouver that was almost the exact same size: Vancouver is colder in the winter, though not like the rest of Canada, with temperatures between zero and 8C for about 4 months a year. Our electricity bill was never more than $28 a month. Here it's running over $150 a month in winter. 5x what we paid in Canada? Ludicrous.

This isn't the "market"; it's an acquiescent public willing to to be exploited. I'm well off and can choose whether or not to use our 3 electric heaters on cold winter mornings. Lots of families don't have that choice. They shouldn't be faced with it.

NZers who are getting by should be stepping up for their colleagues and family who can't. It's criminal. Insulation keeps things warm in winter and cool in summer. The "we are subtropical" argument is nonsense--well built is well built. Shoddy is shoddy.

If we decide to buy in Auckland we may well go for a fixer upper so we can gut the walls and ceilings and windows and doors and properly kit the house out for insulation and seals.


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## jnbates

Yeah, we're pretty much resigned to the plan that we will eventually buy a section and commission a build of a Net Zero type of home (makes all the energy it needs via solar panels, solar hot water, insulation, orientation towards sun with design elements that act as heat/cool sinks, etc etc).

Higher initial cost for basically not having to ever pay electrical fees, and greatly reduced gas fees.

Net Zero homes have been built in Edmonton, and if they can be done in that harsh long winter environment there's no reason it can't be common practice in this one.

But that's well into the future for us - probably a decade from now.


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## anski

jawnbc said:


> I agree with JNBates completely.
> 
> It is silly for migrants to come to a new country and try to recreate the old one. It's equally silly for locals to discount the ideas of newcomers because they're from away. The cold reality is that kiwis have come to accept inferior standards for building, as well as being gouged for all sorts of things--including energy.
> 
> We live in a 15 year old apartment near the Auckland CBD. We have other apartments on every single side of us (above, below, left and right), and our other two walls are an exterior one and one adjacent to the hallway of our building. The lovely balcony doors are singled glazed, as are the half height windows in the bedrooms. Unless these are replaced, the only ways to make the place more energy efficient would be to plastic seal them or get heavy floor to ceiling drapes--and leave them closed most of the time.
> 
> We had an apartment in Vancouver that was almost the exact same size: Vancouver is colder in the winter, though not like the rest of Canada, with temperatures between zero and 8C for about 4 months a year. Our electricity bill was never more than $28 a month. Here it's running over $150 a month in winter. 5x what we paid in Canada? Ludicrous.
> 
> This isn't the "market"; it's an acquiescent public willing to to be exploited. I'm well off and can choose whether or not to use our 3 electric heaters on cold winter mornings. Lots of families don't have that choice. They shouldn't be faced with it.
> 
> NZers who are getting by should be stepping up for their colleagues and family who can't. It's criminal. Insulation keeps things warm in winter and cool in summer. The "we are subtropical" argument is nonsense--well built is well built. Shoddy is shoddy.
> 
> If we decide to buy in Auckland we may well go for a fixer upper so we can gut the walls and ceilings and windows and doors and properly kit the house out for insulation and seals.


I am not surprised regarding your cold Auckland apartment, that was built 15 years ago, most apartments were simply thrown together to meet the demand for apartment living at the time. 
Prior to this Aucklanders had been slow to move into the city & apartments as happens in many cities world wide. Then suddenly apartment blocks were springing up everywhere and the city & nearby suburbs were dotted with cranes. Apartments were selling off the plan before they had even commenced building, & the race was on to get them up so much so that quality was overlooked in favour of quantity. 
Some were built so close together that neighbours could gaze into each others apartments, others on moving in discovered the promised skyline view was obliterated by the blank walls of the adjoining block. One Auckland building was even built without adequate fire escapes but was passed/overlooked because it was already completed when the omission was noticed.
Back then there was a huge influx of students from Asian countries attending English language schools & universities & in the aftermath of 9/11 NZ received a huge influx of migrants from other countries looking for a safer environment.

Worse things happened like no minimum size an apartment could be, one apartment I viewed was 23 square metres & the bedroom was merely an alcove off the living area with no window!

So really why should you be surprised they are not insulated?


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## topcat83

anski said:


> ....Some were built so close together that neighbours could gaze into each others apartments....


Lol - reminds me of an entertaining 10 minutes when I worked in Queen Street. I wondered why all the men in the office were gathered on one side of the building - until I went to investigate. 

Really, some people ought to close the curtains!


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## jawnbc

Never said I was surprised. I am saying it's inexcusable. If Canada, the US, Europe, and much of Asia had solid building codes 15 years ago, there's only excuses for why New Zealand didn't. 

And still doesn't. Your response is probably factually correct--but the larger point is that there's nothing but excuses for the status quo. 



anski said:


> I am not surprised regarding your cold Auckland apartment, that was built 15 years ago, most apartments were simply thrown together to meet the demand for apartment living at the time.
> 
> Worse things happened like no minimum size an apartment could be, one apartment I viewed was 23 square metres & the bedroom was merely an alcove off the living area with no window!
> 
> So really why should you be surprised they are not insulated?


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## anski

jawnbc said:


> Never said I was surprised. I am saying it's inexcusable. If Canada, the US, Europe, and much of Asia had solid building codes 15 years ago, there's only excuses for why New Zealand didn't.
> 
> And still doesn't. Your response is probably factually correct--but the larger point is that there's nothing but excuses for the status quo.


All points I mentioned were reported by the media at the time.

Simply a question of greed on the developers part, ignorance & lack of qualified council building inspectors, & trusting buyers.

I have made numerous posts on substandard housing. Any newcomer to NZ or the property market should do their research prior to buying or renting. There is plenty of information on this topic from the web & ignorance is no excuse. These properties would perhaps go unsold with a little prior knowledge? 

Anyone moving to another country SHOULD carry out research on anything they intend buying to avoid mistakes. They cannot expect every country to have the same standards. For example building codes in NZ are wonderful compared to some of the building standards in Spain & Portugal just to name a few examples.

I did my research in 2001 on my arrival to NZ & because of that I bought a solid 1930's house in Auckland, that I subsequently insulated & installed central heating. 
My current home built in 1940 was extensively renovated & insulted by the previous owners & is very cosy, heated by a single heat pump.


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