# Why on earth would anyone want to move to SA?!



## DonoZA

I'm emigrating from SA. The reasons are the usual... crime, racism, corruption, poorly run.... TOO AFRICAN.

I would, however, really love to know why anyone would want to IMMIGRATE here?! If I was an outsider, unless I was moving here from somewhere currently in a civil war or something, I wouldn't touch this country with a 10 foot pole!

Okay... maybe cape town... but definitely nowhere else. This place has been circling the drain for many years and it's about to go down the drain soon.


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## concord

Hi, DonoZA!
I pretty much agree with you. And I'm on your side even if I came to SA myself. Of course I can answer only for myself but the reason for me to move was that I fell in love with a guy from SA... It was really difficult to make a final decision to move. Honestly the 1st reason I didnt wanna come here is crime. Well, people may say crime is everywhere. I know it's true but at the same time I believe in statistics which say that SA takes the first place in the world for violent crime and rape. In the place I lived back home it's so safe, I could use public transport without being afraid to be robbed or even killed. I could walk in the evening etc. So it's really hard for me to get used to this life style people have in SA. At least we live in Cape Town so it's not so scary like in Joburg.
Again it depends on what country you come from. There're lots of people from the UK, some from States and I got an impression they relocate because they have SA partners like me. But it's a mistery for me why THEY move to SA not their partners (I moved because I speak English so I can find a job here and work but my husband couldnt move to me - to Russia- cause it wouldnt be that easy to find a job for him since he doesnt speak Russian and he's not an engineer or an ITspecialist).
I hope the rest of participants will say why they decided to settle down in SA.

P.S. I might get used to this life style, to bars on doors and windows, to electric fences and "Armed Responce" notifications but I still hope after 10-15 years I'll talk my husband into immigrating somewhere else. But he loves his country cause it's really beautiful....


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## perky

concord said:


> Hi, DonoZA!
> I pretty much agree with you. And I'm on your side even if I came to SA myself. Of course I can answer only for myself but the reason for me to move was that I fell in love with a guy from SA... It was really difficult to make a final decision to move. Honestly the 1st reason I didnt wanna come here is crime. Well, people may say crime is everywhere. I know it's true but at the same time I believe in statistics which say that SA takes the first place in the world for violent crime and rape. In the place I lived back home it's so safe, I could use public transport without being afraid to be robbed or even killed. I could walk in the evening etc. So it's really hard for me to get used to this life style people have in SA. At least we live in Cape Town so it's not so scary like in Joburg.
> Again it depends on what country you come from. There're lots of people from the UK, some from States and I got an impression they relocate because they have SA partners like me. But it's a mistery for me why THEY move to SA not their partners (I moved because I speak English so I can find a job here and work but my husband couldnt move to me - to Russia- cause it wouldnt be that easy to find a job for him since he doesnt speak Russian and he's not an engineer or an ITspecialist).
> I hope the rest of participants will say why they decided to settle down in SA.
> 
> P.S. I might get used to this life style, to bars on doors and windows, to electric fences and "Armed Responce" notifications but I still hope after 10-15 years I'll talk my husband into immigrating somewhere else. But he loves his country cause it's really beautiful....



I appreciate i have only been here a short while but reading articles like this really makes me sad. Sure, there is a lot wrong with this country with crime, politics and corruption but why let that concern you?
Coming from the UK i gave up a good life style but cannot begin to explain the beauty i find in this country. 
The SA friends i have made give me good advice to keep me safe so listen to what people tell you, go outside, look around and just enjoy this wonderful place.


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## XxkayyyxX

I haven't yet moved to SA but my husband and I are considering it. I admit I have never been to SA and have a trip planned for 18 month-2 years time as my husband is in love with the place and wants to show me the beauty that is SA. If it turns out I do like it then we will be looking to emigrate over there as soon as possible. Right now I guess the only reason I can say I am up for the move is a new country and new culture to experience. My husband wants to move because of the nice weather, he will be closer to his only decent family members, the fact you can set up your own business easier and some other reasons I can't remember off the top of my head. We both dislike what the UK is turning into as well so thats another reason that we are emigrating abroad.


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## DonoZA

I will not deny not for a second that South Africa is one of the most beautiful countries in the world. It has the best of everything - from tropics to desert and temperate climates... it's lovely. Beautiful. There's even nothing like an afternoon thunderstorm in Joburg. 

The trouble is that you can't freely enjoy most of it... beautiful beaches? They're overcrowded and strewn with litter. Want to buy a house on a river? Better make sure a squatter camp doesn't spring up upstream - the effluent will be flowing past your house. Want to explore some forests? Better make sure you take action to prevent rape or murder. 

Sure you can buy a bigger house with a bigger garden and a pool. But you are so barricaded in with gates and doors and electric fences - HOW is that freedom? And even if you live in the most secure house in the country, you have to leave that house some time which exposes you to being hijacked etc. 

If you can, go to another country (Botswana and Namibia are probably the only two african countries I would suggest). SA is a dreadful place.


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## concord

perky said:


> The SA friends i have made give me good advice to keep me safe so listen to what people tell you, go outside, look around and just enjoy this wonderful place.


 Well, people are different so they have different opinions. I guess most of people who moved from South Africa because of crime agree with me.
You say "go out and look around"... Basically I can't... Probably if I tell you that is not safe for me (a white female) to WALK not to DRIVE a car then will you tell me I'm wrong? Since we didnt apply for my temporary residency and I dont have a job we can't afford buying a car for me so I can "enjoy this wonderful place" only out of my window with bars.
I think I mentioned that I lived in a safe place so it was natural for me to go where I want. Our local kids were playing in the yard. could visit each other without being supervised by adults. I'd love my kids to have the same.


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## XxkayyyxX

Thankyou for all your advice


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## Buney

Love living in Stellenbosch. Came here in 2007. Our life is amazing. Better than Sussex anyway. We traveled the world for 10 years prior to coming here and believe me, you won't find a better place that ticks as many boxes as S.A.


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## Native Texan

I wanted to move there for the incredible wildlife, wonderful weather, relative low cost of living and most importantly, the people I have had the pleasure to meet and get to know in South Africa. I think we all tend to look at the negative aspects of our home countries a little to much and take a grass is greener approach when looking at other places. I think S.A. will get on the right track soon, would have been a lot sooner if so many people had not "cut and run" after 94 instead of trying to build the nation in the new era. I have so much respect for those who continue to work towards making S.A. a better place for all. I am fortunate to be able to buy a part of a farm in the northeast part of the country and have had an incredibly good experience for the past 2 1/2 years. There are lots of country wide problems but there are also solutions if we all work together.


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## Daxk

Native Texan said:


> I wanted to move there for the incredible wildlife, wonderful weather, relative low cost of living and most importantly, the people I have had the pleasure to meet and get to know in South Africa. I think we all tend to look at the negative aspects of our home countries a little to much and take a grass is greener approach when looking at other places. I think S.A. will get on the right track soon, would have been a lot sooner if so many people had not "cut and run" after 94 instead of trying to build the nation in the new era. I have so much respect for those who continue to work towards making S.A. a better place for all. I am fortunate to be able to buy a part of a farm in the northeast part of the country and have had an incredibly good experience for the past 2 1/2 years. There are lots of country wide problems but there are also solutions if we all work together.


Just a small correction, Native Texan, the largest group of emigrants and people leaving informally but permanantly happened (and is still happening) 5 years AFTER 1994 to present Day.
People who embraced the new Democracy, wanted to make it work and gave up because of a series of massive failures by the New Govt.

you want to debate and discuss it rationally and without rancour or personal comments, happy to do so in a new thread.
I can prove, using administrative decisions, how SA's current problems were created.
happy to oblige.


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## Charles III

Here's a link some people might find useful. It's from the SA government, and pertains to SA's future demographic. (link at end of post)

If you turn to the table between pages 9 and 10, it gives some numbers as to how SA will become more "African" in the future. This may be a good thing, or not a good thing. Depends on what individuals prefer. If you calculate the population race proportions for (example) ages 15-19, whites make up 6.5%. For the older members of our society, at ages 70-74, white males make up a staggering 22% of the male population. Long story short, you can see how, as you move down in age groups, non-white populations become proportionally smaller. At 0-4 it currently sits at a humble 5.5%.

What does this mean? Well, it means that if you have a primarily European disposition, you may find that the South African infrastructure and way of doing things in years gone by, is less and less conspicuous to you. South Africa, once viewing itself as "Europe in Africa", is now starting assume it's place as a true African state. This is a natural metamorphosis, and ultimately was always viewed as being an inevitable result of the handover of power to the local population. It has been this way throughout Africa when colonialization runs it's course.

Cape Town is seen by many as the last bastion of white supremacy in the country. Capetonians point the finger at Johannesburg, and proclaim that they are grateful not to inhabit "that place". This is a notion that is both racist and misguided. South Africa's future is black, no city will be excluded, Johannesburg and Pretoria just tend to be ahead of the curve in this regard. 

As I said before, I am not saying that white countries are better, or that black countries are better, they are just different. If you want to move to a country with a solid future that offers much of what SA offers in terms of weather, infrastructure and geography, but without the Africanization aspect, Australia is a good choice.

As SA continues to Africanize, be prepared to pay a higher and higher premium to keep a hold of amenities that you (white people) once took for granted under the apartheid regime. You will now need to budget approximately 1 million rand per child to see them through their private school years and through university. Public school is not an option. Be prepared to pay about R1800 per month for hospital insurance privately (if not covered by employer) - you definitely don't want to go to a state hospital. If you move to Gauteng, prepare for toll fees (hopefully they'll be scrapped if the government has an iota of sense), and a reasonable sized house will cost you about R2500/month in water and electricity. Keep in mind that the Rand will likely weaken further as debates about nationalization and redistribution of wealth continue, and as the Euro struggles. This will drive inflation of imported goods especially. Prepare to pay about 60% more for a car in SA than in the US in real terms.

However, it is true, it's a beautiful country - a world in one country some might say. If you can afford it, if you have family and friends in SA that can set any returning expat up with a well paying job, then SA may be a good option for you. Do keep in mind though that if you are white, you must understand this is no longer a white man's country. Government, and most likely your future employer will not offer you any advantages for being a minority race group (BEE, Affirmative action etc are examples of the governments Africanization agenda - not right or wrong, just the truth).

On the other hand, if you have family here, or you have earned a wad of cash in a strong foreign currency, you can live like a king here, and who knows, maybe never have to work again.

Here's the raw data:
Oh, okay, says I can't post a link because I'm not worthy.

Google: "*P03022011.pdf*" and you'll get the StatsSA PDF of demographics from 2011.


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## Daxk

Interesting Post, Charles 3, what the document does not adequately take into account is that if SA's neighbours are showing 40% HIV rate and pregnant mothers in SA are Showing 33% HIV rate
then its likely that SA's Population is sitting at between 30-40% HIV rate with a lifespan of 20 years at most.
Some provinces are already showing negative population growth (KZN is an example) and fairly soon Illness will start affecting teenagers before Puberty.

Whites have a very low Birthrate as do Asians.
the only other Group that is showing a decline in HIV rate and an increase in both Birt as well as Education rates is the Coloured Community (Mulatto for our American readers)

I agree with your synopsis on white future in SA but think that the exponential curve of HIV is going to reduce SA's population as follows. 
30% Black
30+% Coloured, 
5% white.
5+% Indian Asian
15%+ plus Chinese imports.
Balance Black immigrants.


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## Charles III

*Interesting*



concord said:


> Well, people are different so they have different opinions. I guess most of people who moved from South Africa because of crime agree with me.
> You say "go out and look around"... Basically I can't... Probably if I tell you that is not safe for me (a white female) to WALK not to DRIVE a car then will you tell me I'm wrong? Since we didnt apply for my temporary residency and I dont have a job we can't afford buying a car for me so I can "enjoy this wonderful place" only out of my window with bars.
> I think I mentioned that I lived in a safe place so it was natural for me to go where I want. Our local kids were playing in the yard. could visit each other without being supervised by adults. I'd love my kids to have the same.


Hello Concord,

Thanks for your insights into moving to SA as a female. I understand what you're saying about feeling confined by the security and general dangers that exist in public spaces in SA. However, I'm a guy, so it's obviously different for me, but I was thinking of having my girlfriend come over to SA from Canada for a while.

I know she would not like to feel like she was constricted in her options to move around, walk about in the streets etc. SA is a very private society. You live in your gated house, get in the car, drive to a gated shopping mall etc, get back in the car and go straight into your private yard. I don't see many girls walking around by themselves. Not white girls at least. In fact, I don't see many white people walking around on streets etc at all.

I was wondering if you're tried walking out in the public sphere, and if so, did you feel threatened? Did anyone look at you funny? Shout rude comments? Just wondering because I want to know what it would be like for my GF, and I just don't see any girls doing there own thing here and I've been here for months.


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## Charles III

Daxk said:


> Interesting Post, Charles 3, what the document does not adequately take into account is that if SA's neighbours are showing 40% HIV rate and pregnant mothers in SA are Showing 33% HIV rate
> then its likely that SA's Population is sitting at between 30-40% HIV rate with a lifespan of 20 years at most.
> Some provinces are already showing negative population growth (KZN is an example) and fairly soon Illness will start affecting teenagers before Puberty.
> 
> Whites have a very low Birthrate as do Asians.
> the only other Group that is showing a decline in HIV rate and an increase in both Birt as well as Education rates is the Coloured Community (Mulatto for our American readers)
> 
> I agree with your synopsis on white future in SA but think that the exponential curve of HIV is going to reduce SA's population as follows.
> 30% Black
> 30+% Coloured,
> 5% white.
> 5+% Indian Asian
> 15%+ plus Chinese imports.
> Balance Black immigrants.


Yep, I think they deal with that around page 5. The true numbers may be higher, but it looks like you can work with around 10% for the total population, obviously higher in some race groups and in certain age brackets. So, yes, I'm not sure if the numbers quoted in that document have already incorporated the HIV aspect into their final estimates. Since they have the info in the same document, I suppose this is a possibility, but unlikely. Net emigration and immigration aren't taken into account either.


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## Saartjie

Charles III said:


> Hello Concord,
> 
> Thanks for your insights into moving to SA as a female. I understand what you're saying about feeling confined by the security and general dangers that exist in public spaces in SA. However, I'm a guy, so it's obviously different for me, but I was thinking of having my girlfriend come over to SA from Canada for a while.
> 
> I know she would not like to feel like she was constricted in her options to move around, walk about in the streets etc. SA is a very private society. You live in your gated house, get in the car, drive to a gated shopping mall etc, get back in the car and go straight into your private yard. I don't see many girls walking around by themselves. Not white girls at least. In fact, I don't see many white people walking around on streets etc at all.
> 
> I was wondering if you're tried walking out in the public sphere, and if so, did you feel threatened? Did anyone look at you funny? Shout rude comments? Just wondering because I want to know what it would be like for my GF, and I just don't see any girls doing there own thing here and I've been here for months.


I know this message was not for me but I can share my experience, being a white foreign female living in SA. I have been here for almost a year and a half. In that time I have never felt threatened, no one has ever looked at me funny or shouted rude comments. It's just not like that here at all. I feel comfortable going to places on my own or with other girl friends. I have never felt like I cannot go outside. SA is what you make of it. If you decide that all black people hate all the white people then you are going to feel threatened. The reality is somewhat different for sure. I am not in any way trying to glorify SA but for me it works just fine.


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## concord

Charles III said:


> Hello Concord,
> 
> I was thinking of having my girlfriend come over to SA from Canada for a while.
> 
> I don't see many girls walking around by themselves. Not white girls at least. In fact, I don't see many white people walking around on streets etc at all.
> 
> I was wondering if you're tried walking out in the public sphere, and if so, did you feel threatened? Did anyone look at you funny? Shout rude comments? Just wondering because I want to know what it would be like for my GF, and I just don't see any girls doing there own thing here and I've been here for months.


You got a reply from *Saartjie* and she says she feels quite comfortable and not restricted at all. However she doesnt mention if she has a car. But you question was if a white girl can WALK on the street.
I'm pretty sure people will agree with me that everything depends on where you live. I have a girlfriend who lives in a very small town where she says everybody knows each other. There she can walk wherever she wants. She doesnt have any fear at all.
But I dont see many white girls walking in Cape Town (I guess they do their own things using a car). And if you drive in Johannesburgh within an hour you wont see a white face not even mentioning a white female walking on the street.
My opinion could be different because I've spent only a month here so I'm still scared of everything and everybody after reading so much about crime in SA.
You see it depends on people's priorities. For me Canada is the best place to live so I'd never leave it for SA. But your GF might be different, she'll come and fall in love with the local nature. I'd say that's the only thing which is better in SA than in Canada.


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## Saartjie

concord said:


> You got a reply from *Saartjie* and she says she feels quite comfortable and not restricted at all. However she doesnt mention if she has a car. But you question was if a white girl can WALK on the street.
> I'm pretty sure people will agree with me that everything depends on where you live. I have a girlfriend who lives in a very small town where she says everybody knows each other. There she can walk wherever she wants. She doesnt have any fear at all.
> But I dont see many white girls walking in Cape Town (I guess they do their own things using a car). And if you drive in Johannesburgh within an hour you wont see a white face not even mentioning a white female walking on the street.
> My opinion could be different because I've spent only a month here so I'm still scared of everything and everybody after reading so much about crime in SA.
> You see it depends on people's priorities. For me Canada is the best place to live so I'd never leave it for SA. But your GF might be different, she'll come and fall in love with the local nature. I'd say that's the only thing which is better in SA than in Canada.


Sorry, forgot to mention that yes I do have a car (would be lost without one I admit since I have a daughter who I need to drive to nursery every day). I totally agree that it depends upon where you live. We live in Kensington (Joburg) and I have had no problems walking around there. Still I would not walk around Joburg CBD on my own for example. While we were in Cape Town I spend a lot of time on my own on foot and never encountered any problems. It takes a while to get used to life here and I think (and hope ) that once you have been here for a bit longer (and possibly have the use of a car) you might feel more comfortable.


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## Charles III

concord said:


> You got a reply from *Saartjie* and she says she feels quite comfortable and not restricted at all. However she doesnt mention if she has a car. But you question was if a white girl can WALK on the street.
> I'm pretty sure people will agree with me that everything depends on where you live. I have a girlfriend who lives in a very small town where she says everybody knows each other. There she can walk wherever she wants. She doesnt have any fear at all.
> But I dont see many white girls walking in Cape Town (I guess they do their own things using a car). And if you drive in Johannesburgh within an hour you wont see a white face not even mentioning a white female walking on the street.
> My opinion could be different because I've spent only a month here so I'm still scared of everything and everybody after reading so much about crime in SA.
> You see it depends on people's priorities. For me Canada is the best place to live so I'd never leave it for SA. But your GF might be different, she'll come and fall in love with the local nature. I'd say that's the only thing which is better in SA than in Canada.


Thanks Concord. Yep, unfortunately SA is a very car centric society, which can be fun as well. The highway system here is 2nd to none, and most of the country roads are fine too (except for potholes). Anyway, yeah, if you don't have your own car, things will be a bit tricky here. The problem is how do you define freedom? Some people think SA lacks freedom, because of lack of public transport, high walls and gates, but I personally feel more free here than in the UK for instance, which is really just a yob infested welfare state on the verge of collapse (hence all the Brits trying their hardest to get the hell out of there and come to SA, Oz, or even the US). From my many trips there, I feel more at threat in the UK due to always having to be in contact with the drudges of society on tubes, busses etc.

Anyway, back on topic, yes I live in JHB, and my GF is a cute blonde, and I get the sense she'll really stick out on a urban street. That's ok in Sandton, Melrose, or the surrounding areas, but you must stick to the pockets of "normality" I suppose. You need the car to get from one "safe zone" to another. Last thing I want is for something weird to happen to her. Might have to buy a second car, and get a gym and country club membership I suppose, since going for a jog through JHB does not seem possible as it would be in a normal city.


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## alverm

I would suspect that most people have cars as the public transport really isn't efficient enough. As far as walking around is concerned we live in Cape Town and honestly don't give it a second thought. I don't have bars on my windows, an electric fence or own a gun. My 21 year old daughter drives around alone at night to and from the city and feels quite safe.

I am sure that this will not apply throughout South Africa but I certainly feel very safe in Cape Town.


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## Daxk

alverm said:


> I would suspect that most people have cars as the public transport really isn't efficient enough. As far as walking around is concerned we live in Cape Town and honestly don't give it a second thought. I don't have bars on my windows, an electric fence or own a gun. My 21 year old daughter drives around alone at night to and from the city and feels quite safe.
> 
> I am sure that this will not apply throughout South Africa but I certainly feel very safe in Cape Town.


Alverm,not disputing it at all, which suburb in CT are you in?
free standing house or in a security estate?
just Curious


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## alverm

Free standing house. None of our circle of friends live in estate type homes and generally don't experience any crime that one would not associate with the average city in the world.


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## DonoZA

Actually, whatever. No use complaining about the place, it is what it is and I'm leaving.


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## Charles III

Hello DonoZA,

Yup, you made the right choice heading to Oz. If you can't get a guarantee of a respectable job in CT, you may as well head to Oz. The JHB CBD is a "bad ass" and derelict city, and unfortunately has led the country in Africanisation.

What part of JHB are you in at the moment? Do you find that you're able to relax and feel like you're in a 1st world country when you're in the Northern suburbs of JHB? Many people pride themselves on being residents of the uber elite compounds, like Dainfern and Featherbrooke estate, but I'm not sure that such a approach is sustainable for the future.

Interesting you've had power and water outages as well. I've not had one since being here for 6 months. Also have not seen a single criminal activity take place. What I'm trying to understand is why some people have all these bad things happen to them, and nothing at all happens to others. I've been into the JHB CBD many times at night, just to try and see what all the fuss is about, and haven't seen anything weird, just lots of blacks wondering around seemingly pointlessly.

Anyway, like I say, I find it strange that people here in SA have such different experiences, when many are even from the same town, but you would think they were in different countries from the different point of views. Weird huh??

Interested to hear your thoughts.


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## Daxk

alverm said:


> Free standing house. None of our circle of friends live in estate type homes and generally don't experience any crime that one would not associate with the average city in the world.


OK, what suburb? (dont worry, not stalking you!)


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## stormgal

I have a girlfriend who visited South Africa and actually fell in love with it (although I'm not sure if it's her boyfriend she fell more in love with - sometimes it's easy to confuse the two). Anyway, she is interested in moving to SA permanently and is trying to migrate there. 

I asked her if she feared the death of Nelson Mandela, and she said that she didn't cause "the people are so nice". So then I asked her and what about in a SHTF scenario? She answered, "Oh that's nothing, my SA boyfriend will save me!" She said it kidding around, but honestly, I don't think she knows what she's getting into. You know how it is, everything looks rose-colored when you're in love. Of course, I can be wrong as I have never been to SA before, but oh well.


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## alverm

Daxk, I am in Sunset Beach but mostly the same applies to our circle of friends who are spread from Blouberg to the city and out to Durbanville. In fact my daughter lives in the city center.

I don't have an issue with anyone that leaves as that is their choice alone but do feel that after having spent a year outside of SA it takes a lot to beat our lifestyle in Cape Town. The sad part is that I may not have a choice for work reasons.


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## concord

Charles III said:


> The problem is how do you define freedom? Some people think SA lacks freedom, because of lack of public transport, high walls and gates.


 You're absolutely right about this. You can understand "freedom" in different ways. Freedom for me is basically freedom of going whenever and wherever I want. When I cook and see that I dont have enough milk then I go to a near shop and buy it. One of my girlfriends calls me and invites for a cup of coffee which I happily accept. But this is not about SA if you dont have a car.
I wonder what big families do about their cars. Let's say you have a wife and two kids 16 and 18-year-old. All of you must have cars to be able to go where they want. Where do you keep them? Outside your fence? How much money do you pay for petrol and maintenance every month?


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## Daxk

alverm said:


> Daxk, I am in Sunset Beach but mostly the same applies to our circle of friends who are spread from Blouberg to the city and out to Durbanville. In fact my daughter lives in the city center.
> 
> I don't have an issue with anyone that leaves as that is their choice alone but do feel that after having spent a year outside of SA it takes a lot to beat our lifestyle in Cape Town. The sad part is that I may not have a choice for work reasons.


Looks beautiful.
I see it says its a secure Residential Estate with roving Security patrols? is it walled and boomed then?


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## bokbabe

Daxk said:


> Looks beautiful.
> I see it says its a secure Residential Estate with roving Security patrols? is it walled and boomed then?


*Daxk,* why do you always look for problems when there aren't any? Alverm said that she experiences freedom etc in CT and you have to prove that she could only possibly experience that in a boomed/gated/patrolled estate!! Just accept what she says!

*concord*, you know, you have only been here a month and I really don't think that that is enough time to start mouthing off about a country like you are!!! If you had researched SA even a little bit, then you would've realised that you need a car to get around.... what people tend to forget is that SA is a THIRD WORLD COUNTRY and so our public transport is not up to the same standards as say Russia! Also, if you are silly enough to agree with statistics, then you will always be afraid of leaving your front door and will never experience SA's beauty and culture and, you know what? You will end up blaming your boyfriend for making you come to this "dreadful" (in your eyes) country and your relationship will be doomed!! Do yourself a favour, get outside and meet people and enjoy that beautiful city that you are in, you are here, so now make the most of it!!

That is all.... as you were and I am going back into retirement....there are just too many new people to fight with and I do not have the energy!

Bok


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## Daxk

bokbabe said:


> *Daxk,* why do you always look for problems when there aren't any? Alverm said that she experiences freedom etc in CT and you have to prove that she could only possibly experience that in a boomed/gated/patrolled estate!! Just accept what she says!
> 
> *concord*, you know, you have only been here a month and I really don't think that that is enough time to start mouthing off about a country like you are!!! If you had researched SA even a little bit, then you would've realised that you need a car to get around.... what people tend to forget is that SA is a THIRD WORLD COUNTRY and so our public transport is not up to the same standards as say Russia! Also, if you are silly enough to agree with statistics, then you will always be afraid of leaving your front door and will never experience SA's beauty and culture and, you know what? You will end up blaming your boyfriend for making you come to this "dreadful" (in your eyes) country and your relationship will be doomed!! Do yourself a favour, get outside and meet people and enjoy that beautiful city that you are in, you are here, so now make the most of it!!
> 
> That is all.... as you were and I am going back into retirement....there are just too many new people to fight with and I do not have the energy!
> 
> Bok


Shees! Bokbabe!
I'm not fighting, someone says they are living without security and the kids can ride around on their bicycles i WANT to know where it is,I want to get my Family that is still in SA there.
But there IS a difference between living in a suburb and living in a suburb within a security controlled area.
And I would HATE for some visitor to our Country and having done doing research to get hurt because they think that its the same as where they came from.
not so????

should someone have told the two Swedish Girls backpacking across SA that you dont go for walks on lonely beaches??
maybe someone did and it was shot down in flames as scaremongering.


----------



## concord

bokbabe said:


> *concord*, you know, you have only been here a month and I really don't think that that is enough time to start mouthing off about a country like you are!!! If you had researched SA even a little bit, then you would've realised that you need a car to get around.... what people tend to forget is that SA is a THIRD WORLD COUNTRY and so our public transport is not up to the same standards as say Russia! Also, if you are silly enough to agree with statistics, then you will always be afraid of leaving your front door and will never experience SA's beauty and culture and, you know what? You will end up blaming your boyfriend for making you come to this "dreadful" (in your eyes) country and your relationship will be doomed!! Do yourself a favour, get outside and meet people and enjoy that beautiful city that you are in, you are here, so now make the most of it!!
> Bok


 Well, *bokbabe*, before coming to SA I did some research to know what to expect from the country I move to (like Danx said). Yes, I'm silly enough to believe in statistics... I'd believe in figures rather than people who didnt experienced any violent crime... yet... And my fear of crime is also based on true stories of people who faced violent crime and for that reason decided to leave the country they really loved. If you talk to those people they often complain on their new home countries. But they dont come back. Why is that? Why dont they come back? Maybe because they prefer safety?
South Africa is very beautiful no doubt but I traveled a lot (Norway, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Caribbean islands, Mexico, a bit of UK as well etc.) so I can say there're so many amazing places with mountains and seas, with green forests and blue lakes. So it's not a key reason to state that SA is the best place to live.
Yes, I know that was my decision to come here but it was the only way for me and my fiance to stay together. And if I ever get a chance to move I will! Unless there'll be improvements in crime situation.
That's a forum which is called "Why on earth would you want to move to SA" if you forgot. So I spoke out my mind. That's the point it was created. Since there're optimists and pessimists in this world no surprise that we have polar points of view.


----------



## bokbabe

concord said:


> Well, *bokbabe*, before coming to SA I did some research to know what to expect from the country I move to (like Danx said). Yes, I'm silly enough to believe in statistics... I'd believe in figures rather than people who didnt experienced any violent crime... yet... And my fear of crime is also based on true stories of people who faced violent crime and for that reason decided to leave the country they really loved. If you talk to those people they often complain on their new home countries. But they dont come back. Why is that? Why dont they come back? Maybe because they prefer safety?
> South Africa is very beautiful no doubt but I traveled a lot (Norway, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Caribbean islands, Mexico, a bit of UK as well etc.) so I can say there're so many amazing places with mountains and seas, with green forests and blue lakes. So it's not a key reason to state that SA is the best place to live.
> Yes, I know that was my decision to come here but it was the only way for me and my fiance to stay together. And if I ever get a chance to move I will! Unless there'll be improvements in crime situation.
> That's a forum which is called "Why on earth would you want to move to SA" if you forgot. So I spoke out my mind. That's the point it was created. Since there're optimists and pessimists in this world no surprise that we have polar points of view.


Well Concord, as that is the name of the forum, pray tell why you didn't just state that you moved here because it is the only reason you and your fiance could stay together full stop. The name of this discussion is not "why on earth would you want to move to (and then please diss the cr*p out of) SA"!! You do not have anything other than statistics and scaremongering on forums, to base your comments on and very definitely not your own experiences, as you refuse to go out and experience SA for yourself. I cannot remember ever stating that "SA is the best place to live because of it's beauty" and I too have travelled extensively, Norway, Italy, Spain, Caribbean, Seychelles, USA, Colombia, Australia, etc, plus I lived in Germany and the UK and so I do also know there are other places just as beautiful but I do also know that I prefer living here to anywhere else I have lived. 

I saw a coca cola sign on the highway the other day which stated "for every South African leaving, 3 are coming home" so your little statement above that they don't come back is just pure bulldust, in fact, I came back!! Some people don't, but that may be for hundreds of reasons and not just because the prefer safety, that is purely your assumption!

Anyway, I do not have time to fight with you about my country, I have work to do, as I actually am here to help the economy...

BTW, does your fiance read your posts? If he loves SA as much as you say that he does, then I am pretty that sure he is as loyal as all Saffers tend to be (can you tell?) and will probably react in about the same defensive way as I am!!!


----------



## bokbabe

P.s: At least Daxk has actually lived here before and so we do listen and respect his opinion that little (tiny!) bit more! Although, Daxk, you and I both know that there are still places in SA where kids can ride their bikes and they don't have to be in a secure estate to do so, so son't give me that [email protected] about having to be clear, as you wanna move your family there...you are just being as stubborn as always


----------



## Daxk

bokbabe said:


> I saw a coca cola sign on the highway the other day which stated "for every South African leaving, 3 are coming home" so your little statement above that they don't come back is just pure bulldust, in fact, I came back!! Some people don't, but that may be for hundreds of reasons and not just because the prefer safety, that is purely your assumption!
> 
> Anyway, I do not have time to fight with you about my country, I have work to do, as I actually am here to help the economy...
> 
> BTW, does your fiance read your posts? If he loves SA as much as you say that he does, then I am pretty that sure he is as loyal as all Saffers tend to be (can you tell?) and will probably react in about the same defensive way as I am!!!


Thanks, I have banged off an email to Ogilvie to ask them to give reference to their Outdoor Campaign or I will lodge a complaint with the ASA for false and misleading advertising and force them to replace every one of those Hoardings. 

because its the easiest thing to prove or disprove.
every SA Citizen HAS to enter or leave SA on a Green Mamba passport.

every passport barcode is logged so Immigration can tell you exactly how many SA's have left and how many have returned.

exactly. man woman and child.
I cant stand BS.:eyebrows:


----------



## Johanna

Daxk said:


> Shees! Bokbabe!
> I'm not fighting, someone says they are living without security and the kids can ride around on their bicycles i WANT to know where it is,I want to get my Family that is still in SA there.
> But there IS a difference between living in a suburb and living in a suburb within a security controlled area.
> And I would HATE for some visitor to our Country and having done doing research to get hurt because they think that its the same as where they came from.
> not so????
> 
> should someone have told the two Swedish Girls backpacking across SA that you dont go for walks on lonely beaches??
> maybe someone did and it was shot down in flames as scaremongering.


Daxk, where I live ( and it is not in a security complex I promise you ), children walk or cycle to school, they cycle to each other's homes, I go for long walks on my own, but do prefer my husband to go with me, I don't like talking to myself...

Yes, many places suffer terrible violent crime, how I wish that everybody from Houghton to Soweto could feel safe.


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## Daxk

Johanna said:


> Daxk, where I live ( and it is not in a security complex I promise you ), children walk or cycle to school, they cycle to each other's homes, I go for long walks on my own, but do prefer my husband to go with me, I don't like talking to myself...
> 
> Yes, many places suffer terrible violent crime, how I wish that everybody from Houghton to Soweto could feel safe.


Ag Jaaaa! Johanna Susara Maria, but not everyone can live in a town with only 10 people in it.
I see your Police are now arresting each other so as to have something to do.


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## Stevan

I dont live in a secure complex and my kids could cycle or walk to there friends. they dont because they are too bloody lazy so get dads taxi service to deliver them, because we all know dads dont have to pay for petrol.


----------



## Stevan

Daxk said:


> Thanks, I have banged off an email to Ogilvie to ask them to give reference to their Outdoor Campaign or I will lodge a complaint with the ASA for false and misleading advertising and force them to replace every one of those Hoardings.
> 
> because its the easiest thing to prove or disprove.
> every SA Citizen HAS to enter or leave SA on a Green Mamba passport.
> 
> every passport barcode is logged so Immigration can tell you exactly how many SA's have left and how many have returned.
> 
> exactly. man woman and child.
> I cant stand BS.:eyebrows:


Daxk

how dare you not believe everything coca cola tell you. For god sake man they invented Father Christmas and we all know he is true:nono:


----------



## concord

bokbabe said:


> why you didn't just state that you moved here because it is the only reason you and your fiance could stay together full stop.
> 
> I saw a coca cola sign on the highway the other day which stated "for every South African leaving, 3 are coming home" so your little statement above that they don't come back is just pure bulldust, in fact, I came back!!
> 
> BTW, does your fiance read your posts? If he loves SA as much as you say that he does, then I am pretty that sure he is as loyal as all Saffers tend to be (can you tell?) and will probably react in about the same defensive way as I am!!!


 Ok, I finally state that the only reason I came here just because it is the only way for us to stay together. So we can finish this arguement and you can work to improve the economy of SA. I'll just comment your post and let's depart friends!

You're funny! You call my words bulldust but at the same time you give an example of Coca Cola sign. Is that a joke? I assume I might be wrong about people immigrating in and out of SA but at least I dont give you any fake "proves" like that sign.

Maybe I'll surprise you but even if my husband didnt read these particular posts of mine he knows what I think about all the situation here. I SWEAR that he's heard everything which I posted on this forum. All of this was discussed much earlier before I moved. How can he react if I ask him about crime? He has to admit it's true. If I ask him about many Boer farmers killed can he answer it's a lie? Of course no. His attempts to persuade me are weak. All he can tell me is "It'll never happen to you. We live in Cape Town so it's a bit safer here than in other parts of country. Besides most crimes are committed against blacks". Does it sound convincing? Of course he loves his country and I'm pretty sure he hopes that one day I'll love SA as much as he does. And yes, he knows about my big desire to move somewhere else but as I said he hopes I'll leave this idea after of couples of years.

P.S. Believe me I really wish you were right! Maybe after staying here for years I'll say: man, that bokbabe was totally right. And I wish you'd never face any crime.


----------



## concord

Daxk said:


> Thanks, I have banged off an email to Ogilvie to ask them to give reference to their Outdoor Campaign or I will lodge a complaint with the ASA for false and misleading advertising and force them to replace every one of those Hoardings.
> every passport barcode is logged so Immigration can tell you exactly how many SA's have left and how many have returned.


I hope you'll get a reply because it's really interesting to find out. But does it say how many people come back or leave the country forever?


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## Johanna

Daxk said:


> Ag Jaaaa! Johanna Susara Maria, but not everyone can live in a town with only 10 people in it.
> I see your Police are now arresting each other so as to have something to do.


Oh crikey , you do not even know my proper names, yet you dare tell me how many people live here!!

You forgot the Wilhelmina, Ossewania and Olivia...


And our population has increased to 25 000 . Sad it is 


OK Daxk Paddy Irishman.


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## Daxk

Johanna said:


> And our population has increased to 25 000 . Sad it is


Thats what happens when you dont have TV and the only action in town is the Polony Slicer in action at the Spar. 
Birth Control goes out the window.


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## Johanna

Daxk said:


> Thats what happens when you dont have TV and the only action in town is the Polony Slicer in action at the Spar.
> Birth Control goes out the window.






Thought the polony slicer was birth control...


When we built our first house here in 1984. the figure given for permanent inhabitants was less than 1 000 ,excluding the township and the now flourishing informal settlements.

The sad thing is that there is NO work here, no industry, no nothing ( apart from the Spar there is an off sales.... which causes enough troubles... )



People flock here in search of work, you can imagine the consequences.


I worked for ten hours without a break today, am very tired now and think I should hit the sack soon, have another ten hour working day ahead of me.


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## Native Texan

Daxk said:


> Just a small correction, Native Texan, the largest group of emigrants and people leaving informally but permanantly happened (and is still happening) 5 years AFTER 1994 to present Day.
> People who embraced the new Democracy, wanted to make it work and gave up because of a series of massive failures by the New Govt.
> 
> you want to debate and discuss it rationally and without rancour or personal comments, happy to do so in a new thread.
> I can prove, using administrative decisions, how SA's current problems were created.
> happy to oblige.


Daxk, by after 94 I was including all the years up to the present', maybe that wasn't clear in the way I presented it. That number, from what I have been able to find, is well over a million adults. Just think what what a difference a million votes would have made in the last election, not to mention the skills and education vacume that has been caused with their departure. I just belive you should face your devils if you want to overcome them. The motto of the Texas rangers is "No man in the wrong can stand against a man in the right that keeps on comming.". This attitude has held me in good stead and been proven over and over through the course of my life and I think could have done a lot to deter some of the problems S.A. faces at the moment. Maybe the country just needs a few Texas Rangers to sort things out.:eyebrows:


----------



## Daxk

NT, there are many figures bandied about, 847,000 whites from two census figures, 1.2 million estimated....
point is,even 2 million whites would not change the attitude and direction of Govt because of the way the electoral districts are divided up.
7 million dont beat 30 million.
I'm sure we all agree that education is the key.

they closed 150 Teachers training colleges on the premise that the teachers could g to te more expensive Universities.
the amount of Teacher qualification fell off.

Within the Justice System there was a massive campaign for early retirement with huge golden handshakes to create openings in a very rigid structure.
they got rid of a huge amount of experienced people.

There and in the other Parastatals such as Eskom, Spoornet, SABC. and Municipalities, they let it be known that previously disadvantaged would be fast tracked and white qualified people would be be considered only in terms of Demographics iro of advancement.
massive exodus of skills because why should people stick around if their career path is limited.

The Medical and Dental Council was replaced with the HPSC and immediately instituted a policy of Community service of up to two years.
Massive outflow of medical personnel.
people who had taken out study loans could not pay back the loans on the Salaries paid to Doctors and Nurses and radiographers and lab technicians....on Community service, so they left.

why should someone stick around to give to a Country that punishes you and your children for staying?

Apart from the crime, the major skills exodus was middle aged and had two kids.
very few of those are going to come back while their kids have quotas for Varsity and Work.



the major return to SA you have is young Saffers who went over for two years, stayed for 5 or 7, are now married early to mid thirties, and want to see the kids Grandparents.
Thats been happening for 30 plus of my 60 plus years.

the question is wether they will stay.

the Oz IELTS exam is booked out 6 months in advance.
my Doctor friend who is registered for the OZ medical says its three months to get one.


----------



## Charles III

Native Texan said:


> Daxk, by after 94 I was including all the years up to the present', maybe that wasn't clear in the way I presented it. That number, from what I have been able to find, is well over a million adults. Just think what what a difference a million votes would have made in the last election, not to mention the skills and education vacume that has been caused with their departure. I just belive you should face your devils if you want to overcome them. The motto of the Texas rangers is "No man in the wrong can stand against a man in the right that keeps on comming.". This attitude has held me in good stead and been proven over and over through the course of my life and I think could have done a lot to deter some of the problems S.A. faces at the moment. Maybe the country just needs a few Texas Rangers to sort things out.:eyebrows:


Hello Native Texan,

I was wondering why, given your argument that it's best for people to stay in the country of their birth and try to correct it's wayward course, you moved to SA from the US?

I've visited the States quite frequently, and feel perfectly at home there. I have friends and family who moved there some time ago, and are quite happy.

So, I was wondering what brought you to SA? and why you feel so patriotic to SA, when your skills, abilities and general attitude to correcting the actions of a wayward government are needed back in your native USA - now more than ever. I don't see how it can be implied that South Africans should stay here and swim upstream against a government that treats them unfairly, when foreign governments welcome their skills and allow these new immigrants to fulfill their potential in a (relatively) free and fair society.

If America was ever in need of it's Texas Rangers to set the government straight and save millions from government backed corruption by bankers, it's now. Any takers?


----------



## Native Texan

Charles III said:


> Hello Native Texan,
> 
> I was wondering why, given your argument that it's best for people to stay in the country of their birth and try to correct it's wayward course, you moved to SA from the US?
> 
> I've visited the States quite frequently, and feel perfectly at home there. I have friends and family who moved there some time ago, and are quite happy.
> 
> So, I was wondering what brought you to SA? and why you feel so patriotic to SA, when your skills, abilities and general attitude to correcting the actions of a wayward government are needed back in your native USA - now more than ever. I don't see how it can be implied that South Africans should stay here and swim upstream against a government that treats them unfairly, when foreign governments welcome their skills and allow these new immigrants to fulfill their potential in a (relatively) free and fair society.
> 
> If America was ever in need of it's Texas Rangers to set the government straight and save millions from government backed corruption by bankers, it's now. Any takers?


Hi Charles III
I have come to SA not as an immigrant but as an almost full time resident. After putting in my 35 years or so in the work force, visiting around 40 countries and liveing in 5 different ones for at least 2 years at a time, I chose SA for a large number of reasons. I still vote, pay taxes and visit the USA on a fairly regular basis as I have always done. I love the people, wildlife and climate in SA and because I have managed to save and budget fairly well over that same time, I can take advantage of the comparatively low cost of living to me while also enjoying these things. The USA with its problems is still a great democracy and I will continue to serve and support it when I feel it is warrented. I also have taken up wildlife photography as a part time profession in my seme-retirement and where better to do this than in SA? I have never said it was easy swimming upstream but nothing worhwhile was ever achieved without sacrifice. As a fairly new resident, I see so much good in SA that I just have a hard time understanding why so many want to point up only the bad things. The bad is obvious, so why the relentless bashing of your country, rather encourage what is good and it will eventually win out. Oh, in case you missed it, the Texas Ranger line was an attempt at humor, wink, wink. Have a great weekend wherever you are.


----------



## Daxk

Native Texan said:


> I see so much good in SA that I just have a hard time understanding why so many want to point up only the bad things. The bad is obvious, so why the relentless bashing of your country, rather encourage what is good and it will eventually win out. Oh, in case you missed it, the Texas Ranger line was an attempt at humor, wink, wink. Have a great weekend wherever you are.


OK, NT, your first post castigated people for leaving as you felt that they should have stayed and made it work, regrdless. altruism at work.
I think I answered that.?

as to your second question highlighted in red,
dmund Burke, (nog a Paddy)
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" 
do you really think that if we ignored the slow erosion and decline that it wil improve?
did ignoring Apartheid remove it? or did millions of comments and remarks create a mindset and approval that accepted change?


----------



## Native Texan

Daxk said:


> OK, NT, your first post castigated people for leaving as you felt that they should have stayed and made it work, regrdless. altruism at work.
> I think I answered that.?
> 
> as to your second question highlighted in red,
> dmund Burke, (nog a Paddy)
> "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"
> do you really think that if we ignored the slow erosion and decline that it wil improve?
> did ignoring Apartheid remove it? or did millions of comments and remarks create a mindset and approval that accepted change?


Let me see if I understand this, you believe that pointing out all the faults fo the country and warning people not to come at the risk of life and limb is doing something a good man would do to keep evil from triumphing? I think it is a little more constructive to face up to whatever is out there and work to make it better instead of crying gloom and doom from afar. I don't know what part of my posts have led you to belive that I ever said to ignore the bad stuff or sit back and do nothing. I have said to promote the good and work to fix the faults. You are taking a small bit here or there and slanting it to suit your argument. I suppose we must agree to disagree with how we view the answers to this particular thread.
I mean, I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.
You don't have to answer I am through posting on this thread since I have answered the question and given my reasons for doing so.


----------



## Daxk

Native Texan said:


> Let me see if I understand this, you believe that pointing out all the faults fo the country and warning people not to come at the risk of life and limb is doing something a good man would do to keep evil from triumphing? I think it is a little more constructive to face up to whatever is out there and work to make it better instead of crying gloom and doom from afar. I don't know what part of my posts have led you to belive that I ever said to ignore the bad stuff or sit back and do nothing. I have said to promote the good and work to fix the faults. You are taking a small bit here or there and slanting it to suit your argument. I suppose we must agree to disagree with how we view the answers to this particular thread.
> I mean, I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong.
> You don't have to answer I am through posting on this thread since I have answered the question and given my reasons for doing so.


and once more, its not an attack on you and what you wish to do.
its merely our priorities are different.
you probably have grown kids, I have a teenage daughter with school and varsity and safety issues that are less in a 1st world Country that I chose in part than they happen to be in SA.
You are in the honeymoon phase of SA I spent 54 years there.

You figure we should sacrifice to improve things for South Africa, I say Charity begins at the top and works its way down.
set me an example of helping the poor and the needy and I will vote for you.
until then, I will be one that points out all the things that are patently wrong.

till they get fixed.








.


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## AnnaLG

Here's why we're moving back to SA:

Better weather (you can actually make plans!)
Outdoors lifestyle -beaches, mountains, forests,
Our family is there 
My children can grow up with their cousins
Schools with better facilities
Emphasis on an outdoor/sporty lifestyle
Good values, kids bought up to respect adults
I can't think of anywhere I would rather live.....

I have just returned form my 6th trip to SA in 9 years. In answer to some of the PP questions. I have always walked around the Sunningdale/Blouberg areas alone & with the kids and haven't ever felt threatened. The only weird thing is that there are no pavements - crazy when most of the population don't own a car! I feel confident running on the beach too. We also used the My Citi Bus on this visit. A fantastic investment by the government & I have no idea why more people don't use it.

We will be moving to Durbanville. My kids will walk or cycle to school and we don't plan to live in a secure complex but who knows. When I read the stuff that's on here and other internet sites & forums and compare it to being in South Africa and talking to friends & family who live there the 2 opinions just don't compare. I find most internet discussion on South Africa very negative. Fortunately it hasn't put me off.


But hey, ask me in a year or 2's time & may be I'll have a different opinion!


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## Halo

AnnaLG said:


> But hey, ask me in a year or 2's time & may be I'll have a different opinion!


You will, stay safe and enjoy the "weather".


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## moo72

XxkayyyxX said:


> I haven't yet moved to SA but my husband and I are considering it. I admit I have never been to SA and have a trip planned for 18 month-2 years time as my husband is in love with the place and wants to show me the beauty that is SA. If it turns out I do like it then we will be looking to emigrate over there as soon as possible. Right now I guess the only reason I can say I am up for the move is a new country and new culture to experience. My husband wants to move because of the nice weather, he will be closer to his only decent family members, the fact you can set up your own business easier and some other reasons I can't remember off the top of my head. We both dislike what the UK is turning into as well so thats another reason that we are emigrating abroad.


I also agree with you in so much as not liking what the Uk is turning into. Having lived here for 36 years I would hate the fact that I wouldn't have tried or experienced living abroad plus my boyfriend is SA and have made the decision to move there this December. I'm actually quite excited about it and while understanding it will be no holiday it will be what I make it. can always return back if all goes wrong. I could also say 'why would anyone want to move to the uk'! I guess it also depends on country you originate from? If it doesn't work at least I can say I tried!


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## DonoZA

Sorry to go back a step, but I've seen the Coca Cola adverts and I often wonder about them. 

For every 3 that leave, 2 come back? But do they come back permanently? Is that figure based on net migration (so, for every 3 people emigrating to australia, 2 "come back" over the limpopo river?). Anyway, I somehow seriously doubt the credibility of an advert like that. 

SA is circling the drain, it's only a matter of time.


----------



## Halo

Yup...... Point is some people can't find Bles Bridges 12" Remixes in the UK and cry because the can only "braai" 5 times a year.... Shame... They miss their Ouma and and times past.........

Strangely, less of the Bles followers leave AUS as they can always find a Bles Bridges club (especially in Perth) and can "braai" to their hearts content and still talk about times past in safety.


----------



## concord

DonoZA said:


> Sorry to go back a step, but I've seen the Coca Cola adverts and I often wonder about them.
> 
> For every 3 that leave, 2 come back? But do they come back permanently? Is that figure based on net migration (so, for every 3 people emigrating to australia, 2 "come back" over the limpopo river?). Anyway, I somehow seriously doubt the credibility of an advert like that.


I also wonder what stands behind those figures... Since there're so many South Africans working abroad are they included in those "2 coming back" when they just come to have a holiday and see their relatives and friends?
Besides stats say that most of people leaving SA are those between 30 and 45 with 1-2 kids. And who comes back? People after 50-60 who decided to retire in SA cause it's cheaper to live here?


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## Stevan

> But hey, ask me in a year or 2's time & may be I'll have a different opinion



Of course it is a well known fact that expats only last two years in south africa before they run off home in tears. why do you think home affairs only gives two years on a temporary residence visa, nobody stays longer than that. must be true cause coca cola said so.

"removes tounge from cheeck and slopes of to his corner again":eyebrows:


----------



## Johanna

Stevan said:


> Of course it is a well known fact that expats only last two years in south africa before they run off home in tears. why do you think home affairs only gives two years on a temporary residence visa, nobody stays longer than that. must be true cause coca cola said so.
> 
> "removes tounge from cheeck and slopes of to his corner again":eyebrows:



A pity there is no five day cricket matches to keep you occupied!


----------



## Stevan

Johanna said:


> A pity there is no five day cricket matches to keep you occupied!




but england are comming to play rugby. somthing for the rugby fans on the field and the gossip colum fans off the feild its a win win situation. See you at the sharks cage.


----------



## Johanna

Stevan said:


> but england are comming to play rugby. somthing for the rugby fans on the field and the gossip colum fans off the feild its a win win situation. See you at the sharks cage.


England can come and play, who cares, so many of their players are Saffers in any case!


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## Stevan

Johanna said:


> England can come and play, who cares, so many of their players are Saffers in any case!


meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee i care. but good point about saffers, get yourself off to the shebeen and start a new thread on saffers past and present representing another country at international level in sport, and bring beer and sandwiches us men folk are going to get mighty hungry and thirsty discussing an important topic like this.

:behindsofa:

:focus:


----------



## Halo

Johanna said:


> England can come and play, who cares, so many of their players are Saffers in any case!


Same with the cricket team...... I'm wondering how many Ozzies and Brits are in the SA Side ?


----------



## Stevan

Halo said:


> Same with the cricket team...... I'm wondering how many Ozzies and Brits are in the SA Side ?


what a good question. ok sport in genral uk sportsmen/women playing/played international level for for SA. 

johanna gonna get so hacked of with us maybe we should move this to the beer and crisp section in shedeen


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## Halo

Nah... This is why anyone in their right mind would willingly move to SA if they had another option.... Other than something worse.... (you would need to be meshuga)


----------



## Johanna

Halo said:


> Same with the cricket team...... I'm wondering how many Ozzies and Brits are in the SA Side ?



:noidea:
Honestly don't know, do you?

I am not really into sport, just listen to the grumbles of my other half!


----------



## Halo

Johanna said:


> :noidea:
> Honestly don't know, do you?
> 
> I am not really into sport, just listen to the grumbles of my other half!


But the we know how many are now in The British Side etc.... Speaks Volumes.


----------



## Johanna

Halo said:


> But the we know how many are now in The British Side etc.... Speaks Volumes.


My source of information is an avid sports fan, I am the dutiful wife who listens and asks!!!

:eyebrows::eyebrows::eyebrows:


----------



## Halo

Johanna said:


> My source of information is an avid sports fan, I am the dutiful wife who listens and asks!!!
> 
> :eyebrows::eyebrows::eyebrows:


A good South African wife........


----------



## Johanna

Halo said:


> A good South African wife........


:bump2::bump2:


We know how to fool you guys!

:whip::whip:


----------



## Halo

Sure, keep floggin dat -> :deadhorse:


----------



## Johanna

Halo said:


> Sure, keep floggin dat -> :deadhorse:




I take umbrage.... my OH ain't dead ( not yet.... )


----------



## Halo

-------------------------------


----------



## Nicolaxxx

XxkayyyxX said:


> I haven't yet moved to SA but my husband and I are considering it. I admit I have never been to SA and have a trip planned for 18 month-2 years time as my husband is in love with the place and wants to show me the beauty that is SA. If it turns out I do like it then we will be looking to emigrate over there as soon as possible. Right now I guess the only reason I can say I am up for the move is a new country and new culture to experience. My husband wants to move because of the nice weather, he will be closer to his only decent family members, the fact you can set up your own business easier and some other reasons I can't remember off the top of my head. We both dislike what the UK is turning into as well so thats another reason that we are emigrating abroad.


I completely agree with where your coming from as I am in the same position. We have just returned from spending a month in SA with my partners family and friends. Once you've been you cant help but fall in love with the place, yes the lifestyle is completely different to what we know in the UK but you have to ask yourself is it better....The answer would be most certainly!!! We are very aware of the crimes that go on in SA, most south africans would say the statistics are mainly of those in the Townships. There are safety rules that you must take when out driving about like don't have your valuables on show etc...Like anywhere you don't go driving round in areas your not sure about.I am a British citizen and have just applied for my permanent residency. I am fed up the way the UK is being run and think our lives would be much better spending it in SA. With all the visits we have had, I can honestly say I have never seen any form of crime and never felt uncomfortable. The only reason people love the UK is because of all the free benefits and security they get, and thats why its going down hill!!!!!


----------



## jcrainshaw

I moved to South Africa from the US, before moving I had visited SA 4 different times staying anywhere from one month to four months at a time. Visiting is great and I really enjoyed it. However when I moved here it took about six months before I enjoyed it. I live in Pretoria and I realized visiting and living somewhere is drastically different. Really research the area you want to live in before you come. All that being said, after I adjusted I have really loved it here and really enjoy all that SA has to offer.


----------



## concord

Nicolaxxx said:


> I am a British citizen and have just applied for my permanent residency. I am fed up the way the UK is being run and think our lives would be much better spending it in SA. The only reason people love the UK is because of all the free benefits and security they get, and thats why its going down hill!!!!!


 I only visited the UK, never lived there that's why I cant really understand what you mean saying you dont like the way it's being run. I guess the British dont like lots of immigrants who come, DONT want to work and just get benefits from the UK governments (read: from the tax WORKING British pay). Probably that's the way the government find the money to provide other free benefits and security. Of course I woudln't like it either!!!
But that's only one side of the medal. Now you can work but what would you (I dont mean you personally but anyone in this situation) do if something bad happened to you (a car accident etc.) that you couldnt work anymore? Wouldn't you be grateful to a government which help you not to starve?
I mean it's different in SA. Nobody gives a .... about you except your family. You have to pay for everything: medical insurance, education for your kids etc. Of course it's fair from a position of a strong man/woman who got used to earn lots of money to pay all the bills. What about people who were born invalids? What about people who became invalids and cant work? Do they deserve to die/become homeless/go begging because they'not able to work and support themselves? (that's what happened to my husband's dad. He got a car accident and had to pay huge bills for the recovery which his med. insurance didnt cover. But he was lucky he worked long enough for a good company which helped).
Another point is that I WANT to work here in SA so I can pay for my med. insurance, for my food, so I can share all the expenses with my husband. But the SA government dont give a chance to work LEGALLY to everybody. Here I mean of course all the problems with Home Affairs when it takes up to 6 months (remember the story of Saartjie, she's been waiting for her permit for 9!!! months already) to issue a work permit. Here you either have to work illegally (find an employer who will like it!) or you lose your job offer. So how am I supposed to earn the money to pay for everything which is not free in SA but free in the UK?
I dont mean to make my post aggressive, honestly. I simply dont understand why people say they like SA more than the UK (let alone the factors of weather and nature ). Are the conditions in SA better than in the UK? So I hope you'll help me to understand.


----------



## pommiesa

DonoZA said:


> I'm emigrating from SA. The reasons are the usual... crime, racism, corruption, poorly run.... TOO AFRICAN.
> 
> I would, however, really love to know why anyone would want to IMMIGRATE here?! If I was an outsider, unless I was moving here from somewhere currently in a civil war or something, I wouldn't touch this country with a 10 foot pole!
> 
> Okay... maybe cape town... but definitely nowhere else. This place has been circling the drain for many years and it's about to go down the drain soon.


Very long story short... Have traveled to a lot of the 5* places of the world through work (employed to do it so not showing off!). Arrived in Cape Town met a beautiful Afrikaans girl fell in love with her & the country. Been here 7 years. Own business. We're now not together. No plans of leaving. 

Why? You still have a sense of Freedom (strange me saing that when everyone else is mentioning security gates & electric fences!) - not a police state - UK is so PC now, can't say boo to a goose in case of litigation. Unbelievable natural beauty. Challenge. Exciting. Weather. Outdoors. Sport. Great food. Fantastic wine. Money goes further. Life Life Life! 

Why I don't live in the U.K. and don't get me wrong I'm super patriotic... Overcrowded + 100000 immigrants a year, dirty, traffic jams, police state, too PC, too expensive, live in a box, no time to do anything as you have to do everything yourself, **** weather, crime - yes it's there - maybe not as violent, disrespect & loss of morals/values in youth i.e. chavs yob culture knife crime etc

e.g. get in your 4x4 and go off road. England... join the off road club for ?500? quid a year, drive 400 miles to find a dirt track, then off road a road for 1 mile. same with fast cars, motorbikes, anything... 20 years ago already my Dad used to commute 1hr from "very English middle upper class UK village suburb" to central London & used to keep a rounders bat next to his seat in case he got into trouble in some of the dodgy areas of London he did the rat run through! 

UK what do I miss - Family, Pubs & a good curry. thats it. TV... DSTV premium has anything 1/2 decent from the UK on it... for those of you into "Eastenders" its on DSTV... but if you were an Eastenders fan in the UK... after 6 months of living here you'll be spending so much time out having fun that you won't be a fat white TV addict locked up in your over priced box waiting for 2 days of sunshine a year!

Cape Town - Yes you have to be careful, yes if you go to the wrong parts of town you risk a hell of a lot, but I've been here seven years and have only loved the place & have never seen crime. O.K. I moved in with a local who taught me the "rules". (I couldn't live in Jo'burg or Durban _(have spent more than a weekend there))_

I think to live here you have to be a bit adventurous, entrepreneurial, positive attitude etc. The country has so many opportunities. No, don't come here with a common/popular career & expect to get a job, you will be the bottom of the list.

I'm not super loaded so maybe I'm under the radar of house robberies but guys really Cape Town is an amazing place to live... if you're into an outdoor life, you like the sun, you don't want to live in a box for all your hard work like the UK. Friends of mine in the UK from Uni on six figure salaries are living in boxes and have no life as they have to do everything DIY etc themselves & only live for 2 weeks summer holiday.

Living in Europe/ the UK what do you do... you leave your house, get in the car drive to super market, shopping mall, cinema, restaurant etc etc Yes you do walk in villages now and then etc but you can do that here... Harfield Village for e.g. So you also drive in Cape Town, maybe from your security estate but believe me Europe is going that way. My parents retired to a v v nice area of the Spanish Med & are considering security gates due to crime... allegedly certain new EU eastern european immigrants gas the aircon systems so you pass out & they rob the place!

Anywhere in the world there is poverty & wealth living next door there will be the have's and the have not attitude and crime. Anywhere there is wealth in the world poverty is drawn towards the dream of attaining some of that wealth.

& don't be fooled by NZ and Aus, they get their share too. OK statistically if you walk into a dodgy area anywhere in the world South Africa is top of the list for you to possibly get killed.... but why would you be there? NZ out time zoned, too far away & boring. Aus. Nice for a Blue Rinse lifestyle. Canada - maybe - just maybe.

In brief, Cape Town/Western Cape yes, everywhere else S/A - no imoho. Will it stay like this. Who knows? Europe's looking pretty screwed at the mo also. If you're into living life Cape Town offers it all... except snow. damn I miss my ski holidays! But leave work and 95% of the time it will be blue sky... in 15 mins I'll be kite surfing in one of the top 10 places in the world, or walking up table mountain with more flora/forna than the whole of the UK, or 30 min drive to stunning Wine estate for world class wine/dinner etc the list is endless. O.K. so lets say South Africa's "circling the drain" as mentioned earlier... More reason to get your arse over here now and enjoy it before it's gone!


----------



## SanFelipe

Interesting read, I always got the impression that SA was the next USA


----------



## pommiesa

Daxk said:


> Ag Jaaaa! Johanna Susara Maria, but not everyone can live in a town with only 10 people in it.
> I see your Police are now arresting each other so as to have something to do.


Erm I beg to differ... and no I don't want to get caught up in this tet-a-tet but Johanna CHOOSES to live in a village with "10 people"... so can you... Fear stops a lot of people from taking the leap. Saying that living in South Africa is **** is the same as saying that living in the UK is ****... there are amazing places in both and awful places in both... but we all choose where to live. Nothing is stopping any of us from getting a one way ticket to a desert island or Shanghai... other than ourselves and fear of what if?!?!?! Most humans will be happy moaning about where they live... wherever that may be... grass is always greener... and funnily enough I've traveled the world too growing up as a kid in "super country" Norway for 6 yrs in Oslo & lived & seen the best & the worst of the world... Life is what you make of it wherever that maybe... All you hear from South African's in the UK is how much they hate it! The ideal "democracy nirvana" world doesn't and cannot exist... as for all of "us" to have a normal/western/first world/middle class/upper class life someone else WILL have to suffer... South Africa is different as we live with it on our doorstep... UK, USA, Europe hear "awful" stories on the news and forget about it after 3 minutes...


----------



## Saartjie

pommiesa said:


> Very long story short... Have traveled to a lot of the 5* places of the world through work (employed to do it so not showing off!). Arrived in Cape Town met a beautiful Afrikaans girl fell in love with her & the country. Been here 7 years. Own business. We're now not together. No plans of leaving.
> 
> Why? You still have a sense of Freedom (strange me saing that when everyone else is mentioning security gates & electric fences!) - not a police state - UK is so PC now, can't say boo to a goose in case of litigation. Unbelievable natural beauty. Challenge. Exciting. Weather. Outdoors. Sport. Great food. Fantastic wine. Money goes further. Life Life Life!
> 
> Why I don't live in the U.K. and don't get me wrong I'm super patriotic... Overcrowded + 100000 immigrants a year, dirty, traffic jams, police state, too PC, too expensive, live in a box, no time to do anything as you have to do everything yourself, **** weather, crime - yes it's there - maybe not as violent, disrespect & loss of morals/values in youth i.e. chavs yob culture knife crime etc
> 
> e.g. get in your 4x4 and go off road. England... join the off road club for ?500? quid a year, drive 400 miles to find a dirt track, then off road a road for 1 mile. same with fast cars, motorbikes, anything... 20 years ago already my Dad used to commute 1hr from "very English middle upper class UK village suburb" to central London & used to keep a rounders bat next to his seat in case he got into trouble in some of the dodgy areas of London he did the rat run through!
> 
> UK what do I miss - Family, Pubs & a good curry. thats it. TV... DSTV premium has anything 1/2 decent from the UK on it... for those of you into "Eastenders" its on DSTV... but if you were an Eastenders fan in the UK... after 6 months of living here you'll be spending so much time out having fun that you won't be a fat white TV addict locked up in your over priced box waiting for 2 days of sunshine a year!
> 
> Cape Town - Yes you have to be careful, yes if you go to the wrong parts of town you risk a hell of a lot, but I've been here seven years and have only loved the place & have never seen crime. O.K. I moved in with a local who taught me the "rules". (I couldn't live in Jo'burg or Durban _(have spent more than a weekend there))_
> 
> I think to live here you have to be a bit adventurous, entrepreneurial, positive attitude etc. The country has so many opportunities. No, don't come here with a common/popular career & expect to get a job, you will be the bottom of the list.
> 
> I'm not super loaded so maybe I'm under the radar of house robberies but guys really Cape Town is an amazing place to live... if you're into an outdoor life, you like the sun, you don't want to live in a box for all your hard work like the UK. Friends of mine in the UK from Uni on six figure salaries are living in boxes and have no life as they have to do everything DIY etc themselves & only live for 2 weeks summer holiday.
> 
> Living in Europe/ the UK what do you do... you leave your house, get in the car drive to super market, shopping mall, cinema, restaurant etc etc Yes you do walk in villages now and then etc but you can do that here... Harfield Village for e.g. So you also drive in Cape Town, maybe from your security estate but believe me Europe is going that way. My parents retired to a v v nice area of the Spanish Med & are considering security gates due to crime... allegedly certain new EU eastern european immigrants gas the aircon systems so you pass out & they rob the place!
> 
> Anywhere in the world there is poverty & wealth living next door there will be the have's and the have not attitude and crime. Anywhere there is wealth in the world poverty is drawn towards the dream of attaining some of that wealth.
> 
> & don't be fooled by NZ and Aus, they get their share too. OK statistically if you walk into a dodgy area anywhere in the world South Africa is top of the list for you to possibly get killed.... but why would you be there? NZ out time zoned, too far away & boring. Aus. Nice for a Blue Rinse lifestyle. Canada - maybe - just maybe.
> 
> In brief, Cape Town/Western Cape yes, everywhere else S/A - no imoho. Will it stay like this. Who knows? Europe's looking pretty screwed at the mo also. If you're into living life Cape Town offers it all... except snow. damn I miss my ski holidays! But leave work and 95% of the time it will be blue sky... in 15 mins I'll be kite surfing in one of the top 10 places in the world, or walking up table mountain with more flora/forna than the whole of the UK, or 30 min drive to stunning Wine estate for world class wine/dinner etc the list is endless. O.K. so lets say South Africa's "circling the drain" as mentioned earlier... More reason to get your arse over here now and enjoy it before it's gone!


Love love love your post. So nice to hear someone else put your thoughts in writing:clap2:. I have only visisted CT twice but agree that if I had a choice I would definitely choose to live there. We are in Joburg for work reasons (both husband's and mine) and for the time being we will stay here. Saying that, we have found a neighbourhood that we really really enjoy living in so we are very happy here for now. However if a job opportunity presented itself in CT I think we would not hesitate to move. Very happy to hear that you are happily settled here in SA as so are we. Moving here was the best decision we ever made.


----------



## Daxk

pommiesa said:


> Erm I beg to differ... and no I don't want to get caught up in this tet-a-tet but Johanna CHOOSES to live in a village with "10 people"... so can you... Fear stops a lot of people from taking the leap. Saying that living in South Africa is **** is the same as saying that living in the UK is ****... there are amazing places in both and awful places in both... but we all choose where to live. Nothing is stopping any of us from getting a one way ticket to a desert island or Shanghai... other than ourselves and fear of what if?!?!?! Most humans will be happy moaning about where they live... wherever that may be... grass is always greener... and funnily enough I've traveled the world too growing up as a kid in "super country" Norway for 6 yrs in Oslo & lived & seen the best & the worst of the world... Life is what you make of it wherever that maybe... All you hear from South African's in the UK is how much they hate it! The ideal "democracy nirvana" world doesn't and cannot exist... as for all of "us" to have a normal/western/first world/middle class/upper class life someone else WILL have to suffer... South Africa is different as we live with it on our doorstep... UK, USA, Europe hear "awful" stories on the news and forget about it after 3 minutes...


Both excellent Posts, PommieSA.
When I was in SA I used to go to Lesotho for Snow, ski-ing at Tiffendell is not Austria but they do have a snow machine if there isn't enough powder.

I agree with you that CT is a different lifestyle and when I realised I did not want to raise my then 5 yo daughter in Midrand I looked at a lot of possibilities.
My House is actually more secure than most townhouse Complexes, and the only weak point is the one the 4 guys with guns in my house exploited.... you have to leave sometime.

So moving to another area or a secure Townhouse Complex was not going to solve the problem of my daughter growing up and wanting to date and go to parties.... and coming home late at night.

I looked at the option of moving to somewhere smaller,and smaller villages do tend to have less crime... but I would need high speed internet with video conferencing firstly, and access to an International Airport or two for reasons of business.
So I looked at Southgrating to Cape Province, on the basis that at some stage they were going to up the Broadband capability....
but.. as you say, the have nots will always follow the haves so at some stage the Cape will experience more violent crime.

And its a small area where everyone wants to move to....

and I looked at the whole of SA iro of my child's education and future.

and I looked at Countries, I would have preferred Oz for its climate or Seattle in the States, but both would have put my family at risk off return if I died early.

So I moved to Ireland and I'm very happy here.

I have uncapped high speed broadband which costs me ZAR450 a month and free calls,I video conference sometimes daily with my SA offices,

I live in a small village that's an hour from two International Airports, half an hour from serious shopping, have a freedom of lifestyle I have not experienced in SA in 30 years, am surrounded by Forests and 4x4 trails and Bicycle trails and horserides and the only thing that's changed is my clothing.

my child goes to a top 10 Private school here which costs me ZAR2500 a year and currently her varsity Education will cost me ZAR30,000 a year.
and a burglary makes front page news.

as to living in little boxes, I am surrounded by forests and 25 acres, and really struggle with the cramped lifestyle.

My little box.


----------



## concord

pommiesa said:


> Why I don't live in the U.K. ... crime - yes it's there - maybe not as violent, disrespect & loss of morals/values in youth i.e. chavs yob culture knife crime etc
> 
> Cape Town - Yes you have to be careful, yes if you go to the wrong parts of town you risk a hell of a lot, but I've been here seven years and have only loved the place & have never seen crime.
> 
> Friends of mine in the UK from Uni on six figure salaries are living in boxes and have no life as they have to do everything DIY etc themselves & only live for 2 weeks summer holiday.


I'm sorry for repearing the same all over again... But why do all people underestimate the crime factor? Yes, of course crime is everywhere like you have mentioned in your post. But I think there's a big difference between "crime" and "VIOLENT" crime. Just one example. I'm from Belarus, a little country close to Russian border. So if they want to rob a house in my country they usually come when there's nobody home so they can take whatever they like and leave without being seen. They dont usually mean to hurt anybody. But in SA they usually come after 6pm (have read this in one article which was a kind of analysis of a crime report) when people are home. So they rob plus they can rape a wife or daughters, kill. I've just heard a story like that yesterday. The father was overseas but a mother an 3 daughters (17,18 and 21 years) were home when 4 armed black men broke in. They beat a **** out of the mother and were about to rape one of the daughters but were scared away by neighbors. So that's the big difference between JUST crime and VIOLENT crime. Can you imagine being raped by 4 black men? It's not only the fact of being raped itself but a huge risk to be infected with HIV. And that happened in CT not in Joburgh if I'm not mistaken.

I mentioned that example to remind you that it's not enough to just avoid dodgy areas in your town/city to be safe. Sometimes crime comes to your own house. I think only *Daxk* supports me in this situation because that was one of the reasons he left. He wants his little cute blond daughter to be safe from that.

And the second thing I dont understand how your friends can live in "boxes" getting a 6 figures salaries... I mean I read about free benefits (med, education (except universities of course)) in one post about the UK but then other British says everything is expensive....


----------



## Saartjie

Daxk said:


> Both excellent Posts, PommieSA.
> When I was in SA I used to go to Lesotho for Snow, ski-ing at Tiffendell is not Austria but they do have a snow machine if there isn't enough powder.
> 
> I agree with you that CT is a different lifestyle and when I realised I did not want to raise my then 5 yo daughter in Midrand I looked at a lot of possibilities.
> My House is actually more secure than most townhouse Complexes, and the only weak point is the one the 4 guys with guns in my house exploited.... you have to leave sometime.
> 
> So moving to another area or a secure Townhouse Complex was not going to solve the problem of my daughter growing up and wanting to date and go to parties.... and coming home late at night.
> 
> I looked at the option of moving to somewhere smaller,and smaller villages do tend to have less crime... but I would need high speed internet with video conferencing firstly, and access to an International Airport or two for reasons of business.
> So I looked at Southgrating to Cape Province, on the basis that at some stage they were going to up the Broadband capability....
> but.. as you say, the have nots will always follow the haves so at some stage the Cape will experience more violent crime.
> 
> And its a small area where everyone wants to move to....
> 
> and I looked at the whole of SA iro of my child's education and future.
> 
> and I looked at Countries, I would have preferred Oz for its climate or Seattle in the States, but both would have put my family at risk off return if I died early.
> 
> So I moved to Ireland and I'm very happy here.
> 
> I have uncapped high speed broadband which costs me ZAR450 a month and free calls,I video conference sometimes daily with my SA offices,
> 
> I live in a small village that's an hour from two International Airports, half an hour from serious shopping, have a freedom of lifestyle I have not experienced in SA in 30 years, am surrounded by Forests and 4x4 trails and Bicycle trails and horserides and the only thing that's changed is my clothing.
> 
> my child goes to a top 10 Private school here which costs me ZAR2500 a year and currently her varsity Education will cost me ZAR30,000 a year.
> and a burglary makes front page news.
> 
> as to living in little boxes, I am surrounded by forests and 25 acres, and really struggle with the cramped lifestyle.
> 
> My little box.


Firstly, love your box, very nice indeed. Just had a question, where on earth have you found a top 10 private school that only costs R2500 a year? That's the equivalent of less than 250 pounds a year? My friends in the UK (I know there is a difference between Ireland and UK but just making a comparison) have got their children in nursery (kids under 5 y old) and the cost of the nursery (a normal not posh nursery) is 1250 pounds a month. The fact usually stated (for the UK) is that child care costs are so expensive that a lot of mothers do not go back to work. The reason being that their salary will only basically cover the child care costs. Maybe Ireland is super cheap compared to UK (I have never been to Ireland) but I did not think the difference was that great. Anyway, enjoy your box.


----------



## Da$h

*Shame*

It is a shame, if you talk bad about your own country and have no patriotism, imagine how bad you will talk about Australia once something goes wrong for you.

nyway, people in the Rainbow nation dont need people like you, good riddens to rubbish, and goodluck Australia.

Heita.


----------



## Daxk

Saartjie, my childs education is free under the Irish Dept of Education grants, and private Schools
such as the one my daughter attends recieve grants as if they are part of the National Schools.
parents make a "Voluntary" contribution of €250 per year as well as a €120 book hire fee, which covers all their textbooks.
That is now falling away as each child gets a Notebook instead and we have to pay an additional €20 a year for Insurance.
a further €10 a month gets the kids toast and tea at the cantee before School and after School.
Thats at a School that rates in the top ten of the 400 Scondary Schools based on "Matric" Leaving Cert results.

Her Primary School cost €150 a year contribution plus €60 book hire
The School bus to collect and drop at the gate costs parents €30 a term

Creches and Nursery Schools are extremely expensive ranging from €120-180 per child per month but they are not funded by the Education Department.



However, my wife has gone back to Varsity on a re-skilling Grant and my daughters collection ad after care is paid for in full by the training Authority FAS.


----------



## Johanna

Daxk said:


> Saartjie, my childs education is free under the Irish Dept of Education grants, and private Schools
> such as the one my daughter attends recieve grants as if they are part of the National Schools.
> parents make a "Voluntary" contribution of €250 per year as well as a €120 book hire fee, which covers all their textbooks.
> That is now falling away as each child gets a Notebook instead and we have to pay an additional €20 a year for Insurance.
> a further €10 a month gets the kids toast and tea at the cantee before School and after School.
> Thats at a School that rates in the top ten of the 400 Scondary Schools based on "Matric" Leaving Cert results.
> 
> Her Primary School cost €150 a year contribution plus €60 book hire
> The School bus to collect and drop at the gate costs parents €30 a term
> 
> Creches and Nursery Schools are extremely expensive ranging from €120-180 per child per month but they are not funded by the Education Department.
> 
> 
> 
> However, my wife has gone back to Varsity on a re-skilling Grant and my daughters collection ad after care is paid for in full by the training Authority FAS.


That is really good value for money, my relative in the UK pays the following for her son:
School Fees - 2011/2012

Boarding: £9,655 per term
Day: £7,005 per term
(3 terms per year)

And that does not include the uniforms, sport gear , etc.

Here private schooling costs about R4k per month , also excluding the extras.

I admire all the Irish government does , but how do they afford it, considering their huge debt?


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## Daxk

Johanna said:


> That is really good value for money, my relative in the UK pays the following for her son:
> School Fees - 2011/2012
> 
> Boarding: £9,655 per term
> Day: £7,005 per term
> (3 terms per year)
> 
> And that does not include the uniforms, sport gear , etc.
> 
> Here private schooling costs about R4k per month , also excluding the extras.
> 
> I admire all the Irish government does , but how do they afford it, considering their huge debt?


Education and health have been trimmed to cut off all the fat, but they are priorities.beg, borrow or steal, those two will be fed.

Ireland has a population of 4.5 million, an unemployment rate of 14.2%
To recover Irelands Debt every man ,woman and child will have to pay a additional €30,000 tax during the course of their lifetime.
at present Irelands Unemployed are being paid to study, those on unemployment
get additional money for transport to work for Companies as Interns for free.
In addition, Community projects use the unemployed to cut hedges, pick up litter, build projects, improve villages, paint pensioners houses etc...
there are very few sitting at home watching TV.

Irelands population doubles every summer with tourism (used to be quadrupled.)

yes, Ireland is deep in the poofy, but if they reneged on the Euro Crises,Ireland can feed itself.
The land is incredibly fertile and animals grow well on its grass.

We have massive gas reserves off our coast and Wind generation capacity to spare. 
When they build the clever Hydro dam in the Fjiords which will use Windmills to pump seawater into coffer dams in the mountains and then release it back to to the sea through small efficient Hydro Turbines it will give us clean, renewable energy.
and we always have wind lol
the last thing is that we have 60 million registered Irish Descendants.
worst case scenario we ask each of them to give €10 a month to Ireland rather than Africa .

because of the Brit Years, free education is a priority, we have a highly educated unemployment line and in the midst of the problems, the Govt is building bigger Schools which creates employment and is needed to house 70,000 new kids who are in process.
so, in essence, if the Paw-Paw hits the fan, I'd rather be in Ireland, than be broke in SA


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## Johanna

Johanna said:


> That is really good value for money, my relative in the UK pays the following for her son:
> School Fees - 2011/2012
> 
> Boarding: £9,655 per term
> Day: £7,005 per term
> (3 terms per year)
> 
> And that does not include the uniforms, sport gear , etc.
> 
> Here private schooling costs about R4k per month , also excluding the extras.
> 
> I admire all the Irish government does , but how do they afford it, considering their huge debt?


Forgot to add the school is Stow.

Stowe School, Buckingham, England


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## Daxk

Johanna, my daughter would have gone to Kyalami Prep if we had stayed, is that not R30k a term?
Bokbabe? you are in the area?
Crawford College??


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## Daxk

Something else I often get from friends in SA.
Cost of living.
My electricity bill here is an average of ZAR1500 a month which is less than my tenant is paying in Midrand. 
My water is free as is sewerage, there are no rates and taxes at present, rubbish removal once a week is ZAR300/month.
I mostly do the shopping and cooking,( I enjoy it)
my average menu per week meals is one of: fish , beef casserole,pork chops/lamb Chops, Chicken (casserole or Roast), Roast Beef/lamb/Pork, Stirfry, Steaks/Wors, Minced Beef, etc...
all the normal stuff to make sandwiches, tea , coffees cleaning etc...
Thats an average of ZAR1500 a week.
Medical aid for urgent nasties is ZAR1100 a month....
Diesel is expensive at ZAR15/litre and in Winter my Central Heating currently averages R80/day.
My Mortgage/bond rate is 4.5% and I have no creditcard or HP debt so have no idea of what rates they are charging.
a return flight to to Gatwick or Heathrow , Belgium, Hamburg or Rome currently costs me 
ZAR1000 return and I use the bus to go to meetings in Dublin which takes 3 hours, has free wifi and I work on the bus, that costs R100 return.


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## Johanna

Daxk said:


> Something else I often get from friends in SA.
> Cost of living.
> My electricity bill here is an average of ZAR1500 a month which is less than my tenant is paying in Midrand.
> My water is free as is sewerage, there are no rates and taxes at present, rubbish removal once a week is ZAR300/month.
> I mostly do the shopping and cooking,( I enjoy it)
> my average menu per week meals is one of: fish , beef casserole,pork chops/lamb Chops, Chicken (casserole or Roast), Roast Beef/lamb/Pork, Stirfry, Steaks/Wors, Minced Beef, etc...
> all the normal stuff to make sandwiches, tea , coffees cleaning etc...
> Thats an average of ZAR1500 a week.
> Medical aid for urgent nasties is ZAR1100 a month....
> Diesel is expensive at ZAR15/litre and in Winter my Central Heating currently averages R80/day.
> My Mortgage/bond rate is 4.5% and I have no creditcard or HP debt so have no idea of what rates they are charging.
> a return flight to to Gatwick or Heathrow , Belgium, Hamburg or Rome currently costs me
> ZAR1000 return and I use the bus to go to meetings in Dublin which takes 3 hours, has free wifi and I work on the bus, that costs R100 return.


Our electricity and water bill is about R800-R950 pm ( that includes council tax)
Water clean, no need for filters (Unlike many other places in the country)
Cost of food is about R3000.00 per month ( that includes the odd bottle of wine... ) 
We do not have central heating, have a wood fire , pay R300 for a load of wood ( have only been back two winters and used about all the wood during the winter)
Our medical aid is more expensive than the one you quoted, ours is subsidised by our previous employer, total about R6000.00 pm - comprehensive cover.


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## Johanna

Daxk said:


> Johanna, my daughter would have gone to Kyalami Prep if we had stayed, is that not R30k a term?
> Bokbabe? you are in the area?
> Crawford College??


Costs Kyalami Prep:

Kyalami Preparatory School


Crawford is part of Michael House, do they accept girls nowdays?

Their costs per term:
47 815,75


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## Saartjie

Daxk said:


> Saartjie, my childs education is free under the Irish Dept of Education grants, and private Schools
> such as the one my daughter attends recieve grants as if they are part of the National Schools.
> parents make a "Voluntary" contribution of €250 per year as well as a €120 book hire fee, which covers all their textbooks.
> That is now falling away as each child gets a Notebook instead and we have to pay an additional €20 a year for Insurance.
> a further €10 a month gets the kids toast and tea at the cantee before School and after School.
> Thats at a School that rates in the top ten of the 400 Scondary Schools based on "Matric" Leaving Cert results.
> 
> Her Primary School cost €150 a year contribution plus €60 book hire
> The School bus to collect and drop at the gate costs parents €30 a term
> 
> Creches and Nursery Schools are extremely expensive ranging from €120-180 per child per month but they are not funded by the Education Department.
> 
> 
> 
> However, my wife has gone back to Varsity on a re-skilling Grant and my daughters collection ad after care is paid for in full by the training Authority FAS.


Thanks for the clarification, thought I was going mad there for a while.


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## Daxk

Johanna said:


> Costs Kyalami Prep:
> 
> Kyalami Preparatory School
> 
> 
> Crawford is part of Michael House, do they accept girls nowdays?
> 
> Their costs per term:
> 47 815,75


Thank you, a friend teaches at Lonehill, they seemed to have a lot of girls last time I was there??


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## Daxk

Johanna said:


> Our electricity and water bill is about R800-R950 pm ( that includes council tax)
> Water clean, no need for filters (Unlike many other places in the country)
> Cost of food is about R3000.00 per month ( that includes the odd bottle of wine... )
> We do not have central heating, have a wood fire , pay R300 for a load of wood ( have only been back two winters and used about all the wood during the winter)
> Our medical aid is more expensive than the one you quoted, ours is subsidised by our previous employer, total about R6000.00 pm - comprehensive cover.


I would be interested in Bokbabes figures as she lives in the same area I am comparing with.
Oh, and my Brazilian maid who comes in once a week costs me ZAR350 a time.


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## Johanna

Daxk said:


> I would be interested in Bokbabes figures as she lives in the same area I am comparing with.
> Oh, and my Brazilian maid who comes in once a week costs me ZAR350 a time.


Our maid costs me R250.00 per day ( also once a week ) Much higher than the minimun wage, but that was what she charged.
Our ironing was done by someone who came and collected it on a Sunday and brought it back on the Monday, paid per item, cost me an average of £15.00 per week. Huge bargain, I hate ironing.

Paid our cleaner £12.50 an hour in the UK. Needless to say, she did not work 8 hours a day.


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## Daxk

heheheh yeah,I have had live-in maids my entire life, arrived in Ireland 3 months before wife did and looked at what had to be done.
I CAN iron, learnt how to in the Army, choose not to.
went straight out and bought the the strongest vacuum cleaner available, a dishwasher, a dozen no iron shirts and 6 pairs of creaseproof slacks and the last was a duvet.
that took care of most of the hassle.
laundry charged me two Euro's per pair of ironed jeans so I bought a tumble dryer.
warm jeans hung immediately, no ironing lol
oh, and yeah, the Brazilian lass achieves in three hours what Emma took a week to do.


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## Johanna

Daxk said:


> heheheh yeah,I have had live-in maids my entire life, arrived in Ireland 3 months before wife did and looked at what had to be done.
> I CAN iron, learnt how to in the Army, choose not to.
> went straight out and bought the the strongest vacuum cleaner available, a dishwasher, a dozen no iron shirts and 6 pairs of creaseproof slacks and the last was a duvet.
> that took care of most of the hassle.
> laundry charged me two Euro's per pair of ironed jeans so I bought a tumble dryer.
> warm jeans hung immediately, no ironing lol
> oh, and yeah, the Brazilian lass achieves in three hours what Emma took a week to do.


Live in maids.......

Is that what you call your wives ( ala Zuma)

Never had a live in maid, only day once a week, I am neat and tidy, still hate ironing...
Maids are women who usually have children that need care at home, many people will say if it were not for them giving her a "home" she would have no where to go, blah, blah....:boxing::boxing::boxing::boxing:





Enjoy the evening, and let's stick to the stupid topic......


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## sainfrance

*well, well,well*

Being new to this whole expat thing and all, browsing through the forum I came across the SA section to see what people are saying about it. I am a SA citizen recently moved to France with my french husband and 5 year old.

I have to bore you with some information first:
We married in 2001 in SA and decided to go back to the UK - work a few years, save up some money to return to SA to start a family.
Reasons we returned in 2004:
Start a family
spend time with my own family
quality of life (we wanted a house with a garden)
the weather (of course!!!!)

Personal reasons we left SA in 2011
*schooling for our daughter* - we lived in Mpumulanga province where there is not much choice for private schooling. She is 5 years old and for her 000 year we paid R24 000 for the year plus extra for after care and any extra mural activities. Her school fees for 2012 was R28 000 so you can just imagine what it would be when she is 18.
*Redundancy* - I worked in the tourism industry and was made redundant earlier in the year. I sat without a job without four months - applying for new jobs at every oppurtunity was frustrating - every was 'according to the employment equity policy" of the companies - eventually I was just applying for jobs left, right and centre just to get something. I ended up working for an agency for R22 per hour just to get some employment.
Cost of living
After we paid for armed response, medical aid (hospital plan), mortgage, car, school, house, groceries and car insurance we did not have anything to save. What future does our retirement have? and we couldn't save for tertiary education for our daughter either.We did not live excessively - a two bedroom house in a small complex and holidays consisted of camping around the lowveld (which we loved!).
Those were the main reasons. 
No one in our family has ever been affected by crime (touch wood and thank you to the guardian angels) but I do know people who have been hijacked and one lady in my office was shot 7 times in front of her two kids. Crime is an issue in SA and you unfortunatelty cannot put your blinkers on and pretend it does not happen. The government is a corrupt as they come (there is corruption in government around the world) but the biggest problem with ours is that no one is held accountable for their actions. The Mpumulanga government spent billions on illegal tenders but nothing was done about it. Money down the drain which could have been better spent on rural schools or our local public hospital which had a nickname name of "Vrek Ferreria" instead of Rob Ferreria Hospital. We have been here in France for two months now, I miss SA terribly and my family but I know deep down we have made the right deicision for our daughter - a better education for her and a safe retirement for us.


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## Daxk

Yep, Sainfrance, you made the right decision.
It took us two years, we will always miss SA, its our birthplace but no longer our home.


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## Halo

Exactly - I don't want people making the same mistake by wasting time going back..... If you have a brain and skills - Out Of Africa is a must.


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## Capetonian

I can honestly say that as a South African living abroad (Switzerland). It is a very nice country, but believe me when I say, that racism does not only happen in ZA. I know the crime factor is a problem in ZA, but I WANT TO COME HOME. I miss my family, I miss the friendly people that talk back to you when you ask a question. Comparison
Public Transport IN CH : Very good, on time and safe
Public Transport IN ZA : Do not use it
Price of living: CH, very expensive; ZA: affordable
Friendly People: CH. not very likely as they want everything done their way and love reminding you that you dont really belong here.
ZA: (Cpt) : People extremely friendly and you can fit in almost everywhere
Atmosphere: ZA wins hands down no competition
Weather: CH. winter almost 7 mnts of the year; ZA, comfortable
I am really considering bringing my family back home as we miss the family, friendly faces, biltong, fresh seafood (especially fish)
lane:


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## Halo

I think you meant Cost of Living : I'm afraid you are wrong as you have to put it in terms of earnings. Sure bread is cheaper but HOUSE/CAR insurance etc.

Friendliness is apportioned to your level of integration.... If you integrate it will be the friendliest place on earth.

Weather is almost irrelevant when in Europe as you are minutes from anything... weather or culture wise.

Let me know how long you last in SA.


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## concord

I must agree with *Halo*. You say it's cheaper to live in SA but again it depends on your earnings. Well, I don't know much about Switzerland but I know that for example in Greece (which is in deep crisis right now) they had to reduce the minimum wage to ONLY  562 euros or so. That's the minimum wage in the country which has to adopt strict austerity measures!!! What can you say about minimum wage in SA? (I don't really like when people say it's so cheap in SA when they actually earn R40 000-50 000 a months each and at the same time pay their maid R500-600. Do you think it's cheap for her to live in SA?)
I guess if you compare prices and salaries in SA and Europe you'll understand that it's not cheaper to live here (expensive cars, phone calls and Internet, banking, insurance, petrol costs more than 1 euro a liter). Don't forget to take into account all the payments you HAVE to do in SA.
Then I have to add something about people as well. You judge them from your own perspective of being a South African. That means you have a lot in common. Of course I agree that people in SA are friendly since all of them never said anything bad to me. But at the same time I personally find a huge gap between me and the locals (since I'm from Russia not from one of the Western countries with pro-Western mentality) which doesn't let me find friends here. I mean I have to literally "filter" what I say so as not to offend people, not to seem rude etc. For instance when they talk about religion I have to keep quiet since I'm an atheist. That's just one example out of many. The point is they're friendly but like in every country you'll get along if you have similiar views, interests etc.


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## WhenweB

Well having just survived another winter in UK and not particularly looking forward to the months of grey sky and rain that pass as "summer" I for one would move to Cape Town if only for the weather and beautiful mountain. Currently trying to get everything sorted to move there with my husband and daughter but its not easy and it doesn't help having people who are there say its a horrible place to live. England is beautiful and safe but where we live the schools are not too good and the influx of foreigners from countries with high crime rates and poverty are not bringing anything positive. Crime rates here are soring, trust and respect for the government here is waning and the cost of living is very high. My husband does nothing but work and its still not enough and we just hope that in his profession (engineering) if we do ever get to Cape Town, that he will have a better quality of life and be paid what he is worth. Perhaps I am being idealistic. From what I could see during my holiday though is that many people of all races are working hard to make sure SA doesn't "go down the drain" as you put it. Time will tell I suppose. Holding thumbs as beautiful country with many fabulous people who have a lot to lose if it doesn't work out.


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## Halo

You're being idealist - Noble but futile.


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## satori

WhenweB, I understand your feelings. We have lived in the UK for over 16 years - reared three children here and while I love this country in many ways - the weather is more wearing than I'd ever imagined, like your hubby mine works and works and quality of life is imo, very poor. Set to become even more so as petrol costs make even a little family outing extremely expensive. I feel the drawbacks of living here become more evident month by month it seems. 

I'm semigrating. That's a way of saying I just cannot quite bring myself to commit to being in South Africa permanently. Not yet - but if I can see a way forwards I will.

It's interesting - I have family very pro-SA , they are doing well with their own businesses and love the lifestyle. I also have family who hate it there but are unable to leave - I hear the story from both perspectives. Attitude does matter - the pro's bounce back from the inevitable frustrations whereas the others struggle on through everything begrudingly. Pretty obvious to me which set are enjoying life more despite the drawbacks! I am hoping to form my own opinions and attitude once I arrive.

My husband is leaving next week to begin work. He is on a contract - at this stage it still needs finalising in some respects. I plan to follow later this month. I'm pretty nervous about it all but at the same time cannot wait to be back among family and friends.

The thought of sunshine, cafe culture, the abundant creative spirit of many people in CT, the beautiful mountain, day trips to the winelands...only add to my need to get back asap! 

WhenweB, it may not be easy , but worstcase, if things don't work out for your family you will still have your British passports and could always return? For me - I have to know if I can give SA another whole hearted try and feel if I don't take this opportunity I will never know if we could have settled there again. 

My take on it is if it doesn't work out, I may be forced to return to live here, but at least I will do so with peace of mind on my side.

When are you planning to leave the UK? Good luck sorting everything out!


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## Halo

All I see is people that have not integrated into British society. (Perhaps this is not you) - I hear people going on about cost of living and lifestyle..... I too spend 16 years there and had kids and what they offer is amazing.

Free dentist till the kids are 16
Amazing activities - Parks / Historic Attraction
Free Medical
Cheap as Gas/Elec
Cheap Insurance
Cheap TV
Cheap travel
ETC^10

Its so sad to see people hankering on days gone by and the dream.... Take a trip on Google's street view and look at the place. (I was shocked - A mate has a business he wanted me to see)

Its the Bles Bridges brigade.... Life is NOW not yesterday. Move on and think of your immediate family and what they can achieve.

PS Never sell your house in the UK - You'll never be able to go back.


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## WhenweB

Um Halo - when were you last in the UK? To answer your message in the politist way possible....

- I have made lots of friends and integrated well into the British society. A very integrated and mixed cultural society it is too with only about 40% of my daughters school pupils being of white British origin (not a problem of course as all get on well which is obviously a good thing)

- yes free dentist for kids up to the age of 16 - have you seen the teeth of British people generally though. I myself have to pay for a filling tomorrow (NHS will do silver filling for £40 but if you want a white one I am looking at a bill of £90.00 for that)

- amazing activities / parks / historic attraction / indoor play areas etc - totally agree but it costs £45.00 for a family to visit the zoo and the indoor play area will set you back £7.00 per child and £1.00 for the adult. Not sure about price of London Dungeons / Chessington but Legoland was going to set me back £180 for the family for the day.

- free medical - yes and for my daughter that is fab but I pay £7 for a prescription plus I pay NI contributions. Agree though that the NHS and minimal charge for prescription is very good though. We don't get sick often though (touch wood) so its not a huge incentive. Husband visited the doctor once in 13 years.

- cheap gas/elec - not sure it depends on how well off you are. Doubt the pensioners who are turning off heating in winter in order to buy foor would agree.

- don't get me started on insurance. My car insurance went up from £360 to £540 this year and my cat's pet insurance costs £50 per month!

- cheap travel - yes unless you want to go to SA then the flights alone will set you back £3000 for the family unless you go via dodgy airlines in remote places with a couple of stopovers taking you 2 days to get there. Cheap holidays to Turkey / Portugal etc I agree with flights to Amsterdam and Paris costing less than the train ticket into London but forget holidays in UK during school holidays as you have to remortgage your house if you want to do one of those! Petrol by the way is now £1.38per litre.

Re your comment about google street view - I was in Cape Town in December so saw for myself the changes and developement - all positive I have to say. If I look at places I grew up in during my childhood in Zimbabwe then talking different story -majorly depressing as gone to ruin but don't agree where Cape Town is concerned.

Comment "Its the Bles Bridges brigade.... Life is NOW not yesterday. Move on and think of your immediate family and what they can achieve" - I am trying to move on but the question is will we have a better quality of life here in UK or in SA. My daughter achieves well in sport. What's best for her - playing tennis in the hall at 8am on a Monday morning or playing tennis on a court in the fresh air and sun in the afternoon in SA? Swimming in a stuffy indoor pool at the local recreation centre or swimming at a school pool at a private school in Cape Town? Music, Drama and culture - yes great in UK but also something they focus on in SA.

Thanks for advice about "Never sell your house in the UK - You'll never be able to go back" - I do believe you on that point. However if we sell our house here and pay in full for one in Cape Town so have no mortgage then surely if we have to sell it there and come back we will have at least the same amount we had to come back with when we sell the house in SA. Maybe the price of property in Cape Town will have gone up along with the value of the house and that would be more beneficial than letting out our house in UK and paying off a mortgage in CT which is likely to cost more than the rent we get paid (net of property managment agent fees) for our house in UK? Don't know that is why I posted my question cos I like to hear from those who have experienced emigrating. You appear to have moved to Australia though which isn't quite the same as going to SA. I do think Oz is a lovely country but as I mentioned on a previous post I would be terrified to move somewhere totally new. 

Appreciate your comments though - always interesting to hear another view. Thanks.


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## Halo

3 Years......

PS What area do you live in? As that is not my experience.

Have you joined the Heritage Society. English Heritage Home Page | English Heritage
(loads of free stuff and going out is reasonable if you earn £)

Wait till you have to PAY in SA - and get something bad and you don't have the RIGHT medical Aid in SA - My mates mom is paying R20k/Month for her meds. Tomorrow you may need the medical so THINK.

Old people in Britain needed to have saved - I have little sympathy for the majority. Same thing in SA PLUS no medical NO subsidies etc.

You need to shop around for insurance or move to a better neck of the woods  - Wait till you PAY Car insurance in SA... LOL

PS Who wants to go to SA when New York is 6 hours away at £250/person - Then come back with cheap clobber............. 

Cape Town is the last bastion.... It won't last. You will no longer be free to come and go. Think long term... Europe is not great at the mo but that will change..... Perhaps you should think about the USA or OZ which can give you the weather..... if its that important.


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## GWalker

Ok I'm once again going to offer my neck for DonoZA to chop... but the people on this forum are trying to make a go of South Africa, we have come here to start a new and exciting life, most of us have been here before we know what we are in for... and that can be controlled. You learn what and what not to do. I have spent 2 months living in Braamfontein and have walked the streets at night on many occasions going to the Civic theatre. I've been everywhere from Botwana and Swaziland to Knysna, CT. I looked at Living in Durban's Northern beaches... you say your beaches are crowded... have you tried La Lucia in Umhlanga? Or Ballito, Umhdolti? You say you can't enjoy life because of fear of crime. I first came to SA for the World cup, and fell in love with the country and it's people, I stood in the crowd at Durban beachfront, 4 Aussies the only white people there, we had a great time but left before the sun went down. I've been to a little local bar on a sunday Afternoon in the hills behind Knysna as you couldn't get a beer anywhere else... we had a great jaw with the locals. But again left before dark.... There are places in Australia you don't go at night, You talk about living behind High walls, I'm originally from the Gold Coast. we have the high walls, but no electric fences. We get robbed all the time... and we have the highest armed robbery rate in Australia. It's the whole world, crime is everywhere, WA where alot of South Africans are moving to has the highest murder rate. Australia has road rage, and the taxi drivers cause most of the accidents.... Live your life, don't worry about what may happen. Just be aware of your surroundings. I have also found Love in SA now, the culture is the same as Oz, except we still beat SA at....well pretty much everything... And that makes going to a sports bar so much fun for me...Try going to a bar in Australia and having a cigarette. No inside Smoking area's in Australia... out on the street and 4m from the door. I've spent months in the US, Canada, all parts of Asia, NZ and my life in OZ and I feel more comfortable in SA than anywhere.... theres a saying in OZ.... if you don't like the place, leave.... if you hate SA so much, Leave and let the rest of us enjoy this country. Otherwise shut up or say something positive for a change. Better yet stay off this forum.


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## Halo

GWalker : I think you belong there.......... Enjoy, when however you wake up, re-post... as when one posts such drivel its in some way amusing and at the same time extremely sad that grown individual (I'll exuse you if you are under 18) can post such clap-trap.


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## GWalker

Halo said:


> I think you meant Cost of Living : I'm afraid you are wrong as you have to put it in terms of earnings. Sure bread is cheaper but HOUSE/CAR insurance etc.
> 
> Friendliness is apportioned to your level of integration.... If you integrate it will be the friendliest place on earth.
> 
> Weather is almost irrelevant when in Europe as you are minutes from anything... weather or culture wise.
> 
> Let me know how long you last in SA.


Sorry Halo, but you live in Australia, please tell us your first hand knowledge of South Africa... please. or read my comment.:focus:

Oh nice comment, this from the man with 1716 Posts on the site... what you that lonely and miserable with your life, you have to come here where people are trying to get information and just spead your negativity. You sad lonely individual... Whinging friggin Pom, I wouldn't expect anything better from your kind. I Sir will not grace these pages any longer you can stalk them all you want. Wake up? me? why don't you grow up....loser


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## Halo

GWalker said:


> Sorry Halo, but you live in Australia, please tell us your first hand knowledge of South Africa... please. or read my comment.:focus:


Lived there for 20 years...................... Though Bombs - Apartheid and all the other Bull****e. I know the place VERY well. Got out as soon as I could. Meneer, as jy veet wat ek veet sal jy verstaan boet.


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## Halo

GWalker said:


> Oh nice comment, this from the man with 1716 Posts on the site... what you that lonely and miserable with your life, you have to come here where people are trying to get information and just spead your negativity. You sad lonely individual... Whinging friggin Pom, I wouldn't expect anything better from your kind. I Sir will not grace these pages any longer you can stalk them all you want. Wake up? me? why don't you grow up....loser



Nice edit.... See ya.


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## satori

As I said there are things about the UK that I love. Among them many friends and a busy social life. I feel very integrated here - just not with the expenses and weather! 

It's horses for courses - there will always be those who will never return to SA. I wish them well. 

For those of us who want to go back - we have to try to do it the way that will be best for our own circumstances. 

Selling one's house is a big step. My circumstances are that I have adult children and good freinds living in the UK and feel that I still want to retain a base for myself here because of this. I'm quite lucky as I can see the possibility of getting the best out of both worlds on some levels (on others it is more complicated) - but time will tell. 

I go to SA once a year and yes there are problems there, but there are also many positives. 

I have family members that have opposing views. A number of them did in fact live abroad, some for many years - none of them has any desire to go back to their prior lives in other countries. They could afford to leave if they wanted but they feel they still have more than enough quality of life to justify staying put.

Sure - this is just in my family - I'm not saying there won't be people who regret the move back. and look to leaving again ( who knows I might end up being one of them!). However not everyone who goes back lives in terrible regret - some are positively thriving!

'Hankering on days gone by and the dream'....mmmm. :confused2:

No - not really. CT is a dynamic changing city and I like exploring all the new aspects of it. I find many of the people there motivated and interesting. I love that creativity thrives there. The dream - there is nothing wrong with having dreams, but I'm not dreaming. I was there last year and I was living the mountain, the winelands, the natural beauty, family and friends on a daily basis. 

Of course one must use common sense for safety reasons, there are frustrations. There are risks. I don't expect utopia. Although I must say watching the sunset go down over the sea - it can certainly feel like utopia sometimes!


----------



## Johanna

Halo, you lived here for 20 years, then left.
You lived in the UK for 16 years, then left.
You have been in Oz for ? years.... any plans yet?

What is it with you and Bles Bridges, I googled and saw he died some years ago.
Do you miss his songs?


----------



## stormgal

Johanna said:


> Live in maids.......
> 
> Is that what you call your wives ( ala Zuma)
> 
> Never had a live in maid, only day once a week, I am neat and tidy, still hate ironing...
> Maids are women who usually have children that need care at home, many people will say if it were not for them giving her a "home" she would have no where to go, blah, blah....:boxing::boxing::boxing::boxing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enjoy the evening, and let's stick to the stupid topic......




Oh please - Okay, I'll say it: People can't trust maids around their husbands - especially exotic-type maids. Sorry but just gotta keep things in check and avoid them before they happen. :ranger:


----------



## Johanna

stormgal said:


> Oh please - Okay, I'll say it: People can't trust maids around their husbands - especially exotic-type maids. Sorry but just gotta keep things in check and avoid them before they happen. :ranger:


And the point of this reply is?


----------



## stormgal

Johanna said:


> And the point of this reply is?



well, you know... people talking about having live-in exotic Brazilian maids and such - I just thought I'd bring it up


----------



## Johanna

stormgal said:


> well, you know... people talking about having live-in exotic Brazilian maids and such - I just thought I'd bring it up




Not quite Brazilian here


Or exotic.


Most maids come from very poor communities and do not have easy lives.


But I do like a little lightheartedness once in a while...


----------



## WhenweB

satori said:


> WhenweB, I understand your feelings. We have lived in the UK for over 16 years - reared three children here and while I love this country in many ways - the weather is more wearing than I'd ever imagined, like your hubby mine works and works and quality of life is imo, very poor. Set to become even more so as petrol costs make even a little family outing extremely expensive. I feel the drawbacks of living here become more evident month by month it seems.
> 
> I'm semigrating. That's a way of saying I just cannot quite bring myself to commit to being in South Africa permanently. Not yet - but if I can see a way forwards I will.
> 
> It's interesting - I have family very pro-SA , they are doing well with their own businesses and love the lifestyle. I also have family who hate it there but are unable to leave - I hear the story from both perspectives. Attitude does matter - the pro's bounce back from the inevitable frustrations whereas the others struggle on through everything begrudingly. Pretty obvious to me which set are enjoying life more despite the drawbacks! I am hoping to form my own opinions and attitude once I arrive.
> 
> My husband is leaving next week to begin work. He is on a contract - at this stage it still needs finalising in some respects. I plan to follow later this month. I'm pretty nervous about it all but at the same time cannot wait to be back among family and friends.
> 
> The thought of sunshine, cafe culture, the abundant creative spirit of many people in CT, the beautiful mountain, day trips to the winelands...only add to my need to get back asap!
> 
> WhenweB, it may not be easy , but worstcase, if things don't work out for your family you will still have your British passports and could always return? For me - I have to know if I can give SA another whole hearted try and feel if I don't take this opportunity I will never know if we could have settled there again.
> 
> My take on it is if it doesn't work out, I may be forced to return to live here, but at least I will do so with peace of mind on my side.
> 
> When are you planning to leave the UK? Good luck sorting everything out!


Ah thanks for that. Hope all goes well for your hubby and rest of the family when you go over. We are hoping to go between Aug and Dec this year when my daugher finishes her school year. As you say if it doesn't work out there isn't anything stopping one from returning to UK. I just want to avoid uprooting my daughter and changing schools too many times as I know how traumatic it is to move schools. Will keep you posted. Please let us know how you get on and whether it is what you expected. Take care and good luck.


----------



## Johanna

Whenwe, hope you remember the school year in SA starts in the beginning of the year !


----------



## WhenweB

Halo said:


> 3 Years......
> 
> PS What area do you live in? As that is not my experience.
> 
> Have you joined the Heritage Society. English Heritage Home Page | English Heritage
> (loads of free stuff and going out is reasonable if you earn £)
> 
> Wait till you have to PAY in SA - and get something bad and you don't have the RIGHT medical Aid in SA - My mates mom is paying R20k/Month for her meds. Tomorrow you may need the medical so THINK.
> 
> Old people in Britain needed to have saved - I have little sympathy for the majority. Same thing in SA PLUS no medical NO subsidies etc.
> 
> You need to shop around for insurance or move to a better neck of the woods  - Wait till you PAY Car insurance in SA... LOL
> 
> PS Who wants to go to SA when New York is 6 hours away at £250/person - Then come back with cheap clobber.............
> 
> Cape Town is the last bastion.... It won't last. You will no longer be free to come and go. Think long term... Europe is not great at the mo but that will change..... Perhaps you should think about the USA or OZ which can give you the weather..... if its that important.


Okay Halo I hear what you are saying about having to think long term - will do. I do agree with some of what you say but also prefer not to believe the rest as I try to be optimistic and positive and you remind me of my husband who is often seeing the negative or "realistic" view of things and I can't drag myself out of bed in the morning if I were to have that attitude. 

Gosh the thought of going to New York to shop just fills me with dread - that would be my idea of hell.... a) I hate big cities and b) not one to follow fashion and buying clothes is a nightmare at the best of times.... give me online shopping anyday! Trips to Portugal, Malta, Malaga, Ireland - different story.

Where do I live - whilst best not to say given some of my other comments earlier - near an airport north of London if you know England well. Not the best area to be in but beautiful countryside just up our road. 

Um best to steer away from the pensioner topic. I feel they have a raw deal here and I do have sympathy for the majority of them..... :boxing:

Oh I do love this forum its such fun to argue the pros and cons with other people as its great to hear different opinions!:ranger:


----------



## stormgal

Johanna said:


> Not quite Brazilian here
> 
> 
> Or exotic.
> 
> 
> Most maids come from very poor communities and do not have easy lives.
> 
> 
> But I do like a little lightheartedness once in a while...



Well, that's exactly the thinking that gets women in trouble. Doesn't matter how disadvantaged, old, or ugly she appears to be to you (as a woman). Men's minds are very different. 
Now.... :focus:


----------



## WhenweB

Johanna said:


> Whenwe, hope you remember the school year in SA starts in the beginning of the year !


Hi Johanna - yes I have taken taken that into consideration - the private schools say my daughter can go the term after July (which means she misses the summer holiday which she will not be happy about). The government schools have said they would prefer for her to start Jan 2013 as their classes are full midyear. She turns 9 in December so not sure what grade she would be going into.


----------



## Johanna

WhenweB said:


> Hi Johanna - yes I have taken taken that into consideration - the private schools say my daughter can go the term after July (which means she misses the summer holiday which she will not be happy about). The government schools have said they would prefer for her to start Jan 2013 as their classes are full midyear. She turns 9 in December so not sure what grade she would be going into.


I would think grade 3 or 4.

Do keep us posted!


----------



## Daxk

stormgal said:


> Well, that's exactly the thinking that gets women in trouble. Doesn't matter how disadvantaged, old, or ugly she appears to be to you (as a woman). Men's minds are very different.
> Now.... :focus:


Is Stormgal suggesting that you have to be ugly to be bright?


----------



## stormgal

Daxk said:


> Is Stormgal suggesting that you have to be ugly to be bright?



LOL, no!! and stop getting me into trouble, I'm not sure my comments were received nicely. I just think having exotic Brazilian live in maids is not the way to go as a married woman!


----------



## Daxk

stormgal said:


> LOL, no!! and stop getting me into trouble, I'm not sure my comments were received nicely. I just think having exotic Brazilian live in maids is not the way to go as a married woman!


NP, Stormgal, the Brazilian is not live in, she comes on a friday (let me rephrase that)
She works for a couple of hours on a Friday and does the Ironing and cleans and dusts and gets the House ready for the weekend.

my wife has no concerns regarding how exotic or beautiful ANY young woman would be, she knows that by the time I have caught up with them I would have forgotten what I wanted them for anyway.
:eyebrows:


----------



## stormgal

When people say, "Brazilian live-in maid" this is what I imagine!











and











I'm sorry, I don't care how poor or disadvantaged they are, if I were still married, they wouldn't be staying in my house! End of story!


----------



## Halo

Johanna said:


> Halo, you lived here for 20 years, then left.
> You lived in the UK for 16 years, then left.
> You have been in Oz for ? years.... any plans yet?
> 
> What is it with you and Bles Bridges, I googled and saw he died some years ago.
> Do you miss his songs?


Left as soon as I was Legal and had enough $$$ for a flight.
Aus is a better place to bring up kids.....
(Both born in the UK) - So they can enjoy the real world when they are 18...... And make up their own minds.

Simple, not rocket science.

As long as your kids have an out of South Africa.... GOOD. But you still have to live there in the meantime. (ouch)


----------



## GWalker

Stormgal....
They Look like Sandton girls to me....


----------



## Daxk

stormgal said:


> When people say, "Brazilian live-in maid" this is what I imagine!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, I don't care how poor or disadvantaged they are, if I were still married, they wouldn't be staying in my house! End of story!


How did you get a pic of our maid??


----------



## Johanna

Daxk said:


> How did you get a pic of our maid??


Hey you !


Does the wife know about this?


----------



## Daxk

Johanna said:


> Hey you !
> 
> 
> Does the wife know about this?


Have you seen Manuel the amagardener???


----------



## Johanna

Daxk said:


> Have you seen Manuel the amagardener???


Oh damn it

Now my husband will realise he is not a gardener...



But his name is not Manuel


Not going to tell too much!


----------



## Daxk

johanna said:


> oh damn it
> 
> now my husband will realise he is not a gardener...
> 
> 
> 
> But his name is not manuel
> 
> 
> not going to tell too much!


sipho??????? Omg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## satori

:eyebrows:


----------



## Johanna

Daxk said:


> sipho??????? Omg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


  


I do think you are a fruitcake!



But I like fruitcake!


----------



## Rod Pringle

*RodP*



concord said:


> Hi, DonoZA!
> I pretty much agree with you. And I'm on your side even if I came to SA myself. Of course I can answer only for myself but the reason for me to move was that I fell in love with a guy from SA... It was really difficult to make a final decision to move. Honestly the 1st reason I didnt wanna come here is crime. Well, people may say crime is everywhere. I know it's true but at the same time I believe in statistics which say that SA takes the first place in the world for violent crime and rape. In the place I lived back home it's so safe, I could use public transport without being afraid to be robbed or even killed. I could walk in the evening etc. So it's really hard for me to get used to this life style people have in SA. At least we live in Cape Town so it's not so scary like in Joburg.
> Again it depends on what country you come from. There're lots of people from the UK, some from States and I got an impression they relocate because they have SA partners like me. But it's a mistery for me why THEY move to SA not their partners (I moved because I speak English so I can find a job here and work but my husband couldnt move to me - to Russia- cause it wouldnt be that easy to find a job for him since he doesnt speak Russian and he's not an engineer or an ITspecialist).
> I hope the rest of participants will say why they decided to settle down in SA.
> 
> P.S. I might get used to this life style, to bars on doors and windows, to electric fences and "Armed Responce" notifications but I still hope after 10-15 years I'll talk my husband into immigrating somewhere else. But he loves his country cause it's really beautiful....




I really wish people wouldn't keep spouting inaccurate statistics, and I also smell a racist agenda in some posts on this forum. 
South Africa is by no means the most dangerous place in the world. Statistically that honour belongs to various Central and South American countries and cities - I think San Pedro Sula in Honduras currently tops the list, with Cape Town in 47th place and Joburg 49th - and several North American cities in between!
Indeed there is crime here, and it can be needlessly violent, but with some simple and commonsense precautions the chances of becoming a victim can be reduced substantially. I wouldn't recommend some of the public transport, and if you go in for deliberately unsafe activities such as attempting to score drugs in Hillbrow late at night, then you are asking for trouble. I personally find the yobbish, thuggish youngsters in London at night much more obviously threatening than people in Joburg. 
People walk, jog and cycle around our suburb, Parktown North all day - with dogs, kids whatever. Everybody greets everybody else, and it is startlingly more friendly than that mind-numbingly boring and parochial place Australia.
I rather like the walls around my house, they are nice and private - we never wear anything when swimming in our pool. The walls here are actually somewhat lower than those I lived behind when in the Middle East, where we also had pretty heavy duty security.
I always tell my overseas friends what a safe place Joburg is - no volcanoes, earthquakes or tsunamis, no hurricanes, tornadoes, floods or bush fires. No terrorists or bombers either. By any scientific measure it also has the best climate of any large (>3 million) city in the world. 
We know scores of people who have come to live here for long or short periods, and they are mostly very sad when they are posted somewhere else.


----------



## Daxk

Rod Pringle said:


> I really wish people wouldn't keep spouting inaccurate statistics, and I also smell a racist agenda in some posts on this forum.
> 
> , but with some simple and commonsense precautions the chances of becoming a victim can be reduced substantially.
> 
> .


Rod, just want to clarify your post.
can you kindly point out the racist posts on this forum?

please advise what simple and commonsense precautions iro of home invasions and hi-jackings.

Thanks

(I love Parktown North, glad to hear people can now run , walk, and jog around the area safely at all times of the day and night.)


----------



## Halo

And I smell an ignorant agenda..... (Equally insulting)

Now back to this post - In a word, Anecdotal, as the facts sadly do not back up the post which renders it impotent. It's also futile to debate this as you just don't have the facts, the knowledge or the will to grok.


----------



## concord

Rod Pringle said:


> I really wish people wouldn't keep spouting inaccurate statistics, and I also smell a racist agenda in some posts on this forum.
> 
> but with some simple and commonsense precautions the chances of becoming a victim can be reduced substantially.


We have to rely on statistics because we can't judge the situation in the country on our own experience. Probably you don't see crime happening in black townships because you live in an expensive house in a safe neighborhood. That doesn't mean crime doesn't exist if you're not a witness.
Basically the fact that you know about crime must help you to prevent a crime to be commited against you. That's why you lock your car, get a house in a security complex, get bars and "Armed response".

What comes to racism I believe it's everywhere, not only in SA . I don't say it's good but that's the way it is. Read this thread again and you'll see that one of the reasons some people leave the UK is that they don't like lots of immigrants coming from Eastern Europe (it's not exactly racism since those people are actually white but still they're immigrants, they takes jobs, commit crime, use benefits from the British government etc.). Talk to people from Toronto and most of them will tell you that they hate blacks from Jamaica because they kill each other and innocent white Canadians on a regular basis. Ask a German in the street what he/she thinks about hundreds of thousands of Turks who live in Berlin. Etc., etc. Racism is everywhere...


----------



## Daxk

Excellent Comment Concord.
South Africans are also one of the most Xenophobic populations around, hence the killing and burning that goes on and sometimes I think in the difficulties Home affairs puts up to prevent people from coming.


----------



## DonoZA

I love how the moment you point out some FACTS people cry racism. It's as if it's the default trump card that allows you to win an argument... when you actually don't have any more valid points.


----------



## Saartjie

Well we all know racism is very much a reality here from all parts of the population. Still, Concord is right, racism exists in most places, it might just not be as openly expressed as it is here. HOWEVER, the fact that so many people go on about 'the good old days' when the kids could play in the street and you could walk around at night and it was clean and things worked, still leaves a bit of a bad taste. So SA is no longer good enough because the National Party is no longer in power and discriminatory laws are no longer in place? No sirens goes off at night telling people to leave certain areas so that the 'safe' neighborhoods can be created. I know the current situation is definitely not ideal and the ANC are not living up to their promises and a lot of stuff simply does not work but SA cannot only have been functioning because of Apartheid however when you talk to most whites here, that is what they say and that is just sad.


----------



## louisa2012

*Bit more info on Pretoria, please*



jcrainshaw said:


> I moved to South Africa from the US, before moving I had visited SA 4 different times staying anywhere from one month to four months at a time. Visiting is great and I really enjoyed it. However when I moved here it took about six months before I enjoyed it. I live in Pretoria and I realized visiting and living somewhere is drastically different. Really research the area you want to live in before you come. All that being said, after I adjusted I have really loved it here and really enjoy all that SA has to offer.


Hi jcrainshaw, i've just been offered the chance to move to Pretoria for a few months (at least), could you give me a little bit more insight into what's it like there, from an expat's point of view?
I hear alot about Cape Town, Joburg, but not a lot about Pretoria. Crime sounds pretty bad, but then again, how true are the rumours?
Thanks!


----------



## Daxk

Saartjie said:


> Well we all know racism is very much a reality here from all parts of the population. Still, Concord is right, racism exists in most places, it might just not be as openly expressed as it is here. HOWEVER, the fact that so many people go on about 'the good old days' when the kids could play in the street and you could walk around at night and it was clean and things worked, still leaves a bit of a bad taste. So SA is no longer good enough because the National Party is no longer in power and discriminatory laws are no longer in place? No sirens goes off at night telling people to leave certain areas so that the 'safe' neighborhoods can be created. I know the current situation is definitely not ideal and the ANC are not living up to their promises and a lot of stuff simply does not work but SA cannot only have been functioning because of Apartheid however when you talk to most whites here, that is what they say and that is just sad.


Saartjie, it did not just function because of Apartheid, the crime in the Townships was horrendous and the Police did not respond as they were seen as the enemy and open to ambush.
as white South Africans, unless you were in the Army, you were not exposed to that.

What did work, and no longer does, is the Criminal Justice system.

SA Law Society do a tracking excercise every few years on cases that get "Detected" (ie, cases that result in a charge being brought against someone and going to Court for Trial)

Excluding all incidents where the perpetrators are unkown and the cases never solved, out of every one hundred cases that get to Court, 
11 people get convicted for murder and 9 get convicted for Rape.

*so 89 people who were suspected and had sufficient evidence for the prosecution to feel they had a good case, walk free.*

The reasons given are missing Documents, bad record keeping,bad detective work, SAPS officers not arriving for Court cases,and bad governance.

The Forensics labs currrently have a two year waiting list for DNA and Forensic analysis as a direct result of staffing Policies
(Wits Medical School offered, it was turned down) 

So there is no real Rule of Law, no respect for it and no fear of prosecution as

*only 10% of all Rape cases ever get to Court and only 19% of all Murder Cases get to Court.*
(Stats from the SAPS.gov.za site and Parliamentary reports)
*and of those at best 11% get convicted.
*
So, as a rapist or murderer, I have a 1% chance of going to Jail.

and THAT is a direct result of the Democratic Governments actions post 1994.


----------



## Halo

PS Democracy is only democracy if all those involved are aware of all the issue.


----------



## susieusa

Having lived both in the Uk and SA, I would choose SA any day over the UK. However, there are many aspects of life in SA which one must become accustomed to: barred windows and doors, 8-10 foot walls around property topped with razor wire and electric fencing, power gates...Starting a business isn't as quick as one would suspect. Government moves too slow. Best to go for an extended visit - a year maybe - before making a final decision.


----------



## Halo

susieusa said:


> Having lived both in the Uk and SA, I would choose SA any day over the UK. However, there are many aspects of life in SA which one must become accustomed to: barred windows and doors, 8-10 foot walls around property topped with razor wire and electric fencing, power gates...Starting a business isn't as quick as one would suspect. Government moves too slow. Best to go for an extended visit - a year maybe - before making a final decision.


Where in the UK have you lived?


----------



## vegasboy

Great to see all my partners in crime are still on the forum giving informative advice to those thinking that South Africa is la-la land - and I don't mean this in a derogatory way. I LOVE South Africa, but I am forced by the direction this country is headed to take proactive steps, which I have thankfully been working on for the last few years and now reaping the benefits in the USA. 

As we have said so many times on this forum, if you are moving to South Africa with foreign currency and you have no kids to raise, be my guest - you can afford the private security, private health care, private education etc. and SARS needs your taxes. Pravin Gordan said that the total social "wage" a poor family of four receives from the state equals about R3900 pm. Economist Dawie Roodt noted that from a perspective of what they put in vs. what they receive (in South Africa) it makes sense for the poor to stay poor. Our taxes are literally used to keep the masses alive, and very little left for infrastructure and maintenance.

I will however remain unapologetic and outspoken without reservation, and pursue my advocacy on this issue as strong and as often as I can: If you have kids or planning to have in future and you can afford to emigrate to another country, DO IT. We can debate this issue until the end of time, young people in South Africa do not have a future here. I know, I have 3. You are doing your child a disfavor raising them in South Africa. I am willing to challenge anyone on this.

Google the 'broken window' principle. Our communities and infrastructure are deteriorating rapidly, not to even mention poverty, crime, corruption and entitlement. 

Yes, people like myself and a few others on this forum have a tendency to do 'visionary scenario analysis' which may give the impression of being negative. We predict what is to come based on personal experience, statistics etc. and it is not rocket science to come to a conclusion.

Of course someone who immigrates to South Africa or have no way of getting out would have to defend their decision and be blinded by the truth, hence constantly being on the defense. 

But heck, South Africa remains a beautiful place. What a waste.


----------



## WhenweB

vegasboy said:


> Great to see all my partners in crime are still on the forum giving informative advice to those thinking that South Africa is la-la land - and I don't mean this in a derogatory way. I LOVE South Africa, but I am forced by the direction this country is headed to take proactive steps, which I have thankfully been working on for the last few years and now reaping the benefits in the USA.
> 
> As we have said so many times on this forum, if you are moving to South Africa with foreign currency and you have no kids to raise, be my guest - you can afford the private security, private health care, private education etc. and SARS needs your taxes. Pravin Gordan said that the total social "wage" a poor family of four receives from the state equals about R3900 pm. Economist Dawie Roodt noted that from a perspective of what they put in vs. what they receive (in South Africa) it makes sense for the poor to stay poor. Our taxes are literally used to keep the masses alive, and very little left for infrastructure and maintenance.
> 
> I will however remain unapologetic and outspoken without reservation, and pursue my advocacy on this issue as strong and as often as I can: If you have kids or planning to have in future and you can afford to emigrate to another country, DO IT. We can debate this issue until the end of time, young people in South Africa do not have a future here. I know, I have 3. You are doing your child a disfavor raising them in South Africa. I am willing to challenge anyone on this.
> 
> Google the 'broken window' principle. Our communities and infrastructure are deteriorating rapidly, not to even mention poverty, crime, corruption and entitlement.
> 
> Yes, people like myself and a few others on this forum have a tendency to do 'visionary scenario analysis' which may give the impression of being negative. We predict what is to come based on personal experience, statistics etc. and it is not rocket science to come to a conclusion.
> 
> Of course someone who immigrates to South Africa or have no way of getting out would have to defend their decision and be blinded by the truth, hence constantly being on the defense.
> 
> But heck, South Africa remains a beautiful place. What a waste.


Well Vegasboy that is very interesting and of course I do take what you have said on board. BUT you know - what you say about the youth / children not having a future in SA is exactly what is being said about the kids in UK!!!! My daughter goes to one of the better government schools in our area and its very multicultural with both Eastern European and Asian children being a significant portion of the school body. This isn't a problem per say as the issues concerning my opinion of my daughters future education here is more to do with all the beaurocratic paperwork which bogs down the teachers when they should be teaching, the general deterioration of the English language due to colloquialisms and dialects having to be taken into consideration (I refer to the staff at a PRIVATE school in which I worked saying "was you" to children and "them books" not to mention "drinking worah" and "having respek". Add to that the concerns about high university tuition, lack of places in said universities, no jobs when they leave school and lets not forget the fact that most of them feel (and quite rightly) that they are better off being on benefits with babies and free housing etc than actually getting a job. I was watching a programme not so long ago where they were discussing the fact that the children doing English Literature at GCSE and A level don't even have to read the book they are studying as they just get tested on specific paragraphs. How the heck can you "study" The Mill on the Floss withouth reading it? Also there is a problem with teens binge drinking here and the government feels that adding a couple of pence to the price of wine in the shops will change this..... I could go on but seeing as you are living in USA should I talk about the schooling / future of kids there.....???? What I am saying is that all countries have their problems. Education can be obtained in any country where the child is willing and is supported by parents just like a private schooling in Switzerland will not guarantee a good education to a spoilt brat who knows nothing of the real world. I know lots of youngsters in SA who have received an enducation there and are leading successful rewarding lives. At Government schools in Cape Town I may add not the private schools. My daughter is bright and being left to her own devices in the UK school whilst they focus on the children not meeting targets. She is doing tennis in a hall and swims in an indoor pool. She wants to do hockey and dancing but because she is doing tennis and there is only a limited amout of children that can use the hall at one time she can only do the one sport and let other children do the other sports. Wouldn't she be better off in an SA school doing sports outdoors on proper fields in the sunshine? Who knows what her future holds in 10 years time but the temptation to improve her years as a child is very very strong so I am not sure if your argument will convince many people who are wanting to return to SA for a better life for their children now hoping that their child will have a future in SA or failing which be able to go to another country and use their good foundation there??? :ranger:


----------



## Saartjie

vegasboy said:


> Great to see all my partners in crime are still on the forum giving informative advice to those thinking that South Africa is la-la land - and I don't mean this in a derogatory way. I LOVE South Africa, but I am forced by the direction this country is headed to take proactive steps, which I have thankfully been working on for the last few years and now reaping the benefits in the USA.
> 
> As we have said so many times on this forum, if you are moving to South Africa with foreign currency and you have no kids to raise, be my guest - you can afford the private security, private health care, private education etc. and SARS needs your taxes. Pravin Gordan said that the total social "wage" a poor family of four receives from the state equals about R3900 pm. Economist Dawie Roodt noted that from a perspective of what they put in vs. what they receive (in South Africa) it makes sense for the poor to stay poor. Our taxes are literally used to keep the masses alive, and very little left for infrastructure and maintenance.
> 
> I will however remain unapologetic and outspoken without reservation, and pursue my advocacy on this issue as strong and as often as I can: If you have kids or planning to have in future and you can afford to emigrate to another country, DO IT. We can debate this issue until the end of time, young people in South Africa do not have a future here. I know, I have 3. You are doing your child a disfavor raising them in South Africa. I am willing to challenge anyone on this.
> 
> Google the 'broken window' principle. Our communities and infrastructure are deteriorating rapidly, not to even mention poverty, crime, corruption and entitlement.
> 
> Yes, people like myself and a few others on this forum have a tendency to do 'visionary scenario analysis' which may give the impression of being negative. We predict what is to come based on personal experience, statistics etc. and it is not rocket science to come to a conclusion.
> 
> Of course someone who immigrates to South Africa or have no way of getting out would have to defend their decision and be blinded by the truth, hence constantly being on the defense.
> 
> But heck, South Africa remains a beautiful place. What a waste.


I do not feel the need to defend my decision at all. Not at all sure why I would need to to be honest. The decision that I have taken for my family and my daughter I have taken because I thought it was a good decision and I still think that it is. I think that my daughter when she starts school will have access to much better education here than she would have in the UK. Yes we are in the lucky position that we will be able to afford private school should we want it for her. Yes we have medical aid and all the other benefits that money can buy here. Don't really see the problem with this, here we can afford a very good life and in the UK we could not. I cannot give an opinion on the States as I have never lived there but I am sure you have made a great decision for your three children. As usual I do not feel the urge to condemn other peoples decisions, we all make the decisions that we think is best for our families. I mean why would anyone take a decision relating to their family which they did not think was a good one? I am glad you are happy with your decision to move to the States and that Daxk is happy to have moved to Ireland and sad Halo thinks that OZ is paradise on earth, it is just sad that all of you spend so much time brewing over the rest of us who has made the decision to move to SA. Enjoy your time in your new country and stop fretting over us here in SA, we are all doing just fine.


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## Halo

Better education in SA - Are you for real ? (not even close)

I don't understand how you were "poor" in the UK and now suddenly in SA you can afford all the luxuries.... I smell a rat.

As someone said - Its not rocket science.


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## WhenweB

Halo said:


> Better education in SA - Are you for real ? (not even close)
> 
> I don't understand how you were "poor" in the UK and now suddenly in SA you can afford all the luxuries.... I smell a rat.
> 
> As someone said - Its not rocket science.


Halo as someone living in UK now I can understand exactly what Saartjie is saying and why. She is spot on and I agree with what she has said. It isn't rocket science as you say but I don't smell a rat its all very clear.


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## Daxk

Saartjie said:


> I do not feel the need to defend my decision at all. Not at all sure why I would need to to be honest. The decision that I have taken for my family and my daughter I have taken because I thought it was a good decision and I still think that it is. I think that my daughter when she starts school will have access to much better education here than she would have in the UK. Yes we are in the lucky position that we will be able to afford private school should we want it for her. Yes we have medical aid and all the other benefits that money can buy here. Don't really see the problem with this, here we can afford a very good life and in the UK we could not. I cannot give an opinion on the States as I have never lived there but I am sure you have made a great decision for your three children. As usual I do not feel the urge to condemn other peoples decisions, we all make the decisions that we think is best for our families. I mean why would anyone take a decision relating to their family which they did not think was a good one? I am glad you are happy with your decision to move to the States and that Daxk is happy to have moved to Ireland and sad Halo thinks that OZ is paradise on earth, it is just sad that all of you spend so much time brewing over the rest of us who has made the decision to move to SA. Enjoy your time in your new country and stop fretting over us here in SA, we are all doing just fine.


Saartjie and Whenwe, are all Schools in the UK, and all Counties in the UK like that?
are most of the people in the UK on the Dole?

because thats the impression your post indicates..


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## Saartjie

Halo said:


> Better education in SA - Are you for real ? (not even close)
> 
> I don't understand how you were "poor" in the UK and now suddenly in SA you can afford all the luxuries.... I smell a rat.
> 
> As someone said - Its not rocket science.


There are a lot of things that you do not understand but we have already established that. 

I never said that I was poor in the UK. I was a lawyer then and I am a lawyer now, I just earn more money now and so does my husband and our expenses are far less. 

If you smell a rat your nose is probably too close to your mouth.


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## Saartjie

Daxk said:


> Saartjie and Whenwe, are all Schools in the UK, and all Counties in the UK like that?
> are most of the people in the UK on the Dole?
> 
> because thats the impression your post indicates..


Not sure where you get that impression. Where have I said that all schools are the same in the UK. I was speaking from a personal point of view. That is why I said that my daughter will have better access to education here. I was comparing where we lived in the UK to here, nowhere else in the UK. The Dole comment I don't get either. I didn't mention that.


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## Daxk

WhenweB said:


> Well Vegasboy that is very interesting and of course I do take what you have said on board. BUT you know - what you say about the youth / children not having a future in SA is exactly what is being said about the kids in UK!!!! My daughter goes to one of the better government schools in our area and its very multicultural with both Eastern European and Asian children being a significant portion of the school body. This isn't a problem per say as the issues concerning my opinion of my daughters future education here is more to do with all the beaurocratic paperwork which bogs down the teachers when they should be teaching, the general deterioration of the English language due to colloquialisms and dialects having to be taken into consideration (I refer to the staff at a PRIVATE school in which I worked saying "was you" to children and "them books" not to mention "drinking worah" and "having respek". Add to that the concerns about high university tuition, lack of places in said universities, no jobs when they leave school and lets not forget the fact that most of them feel (and quite rightly) that they are better off being on benefits with babies and free housing etc than actually getting a job. I was watching a programme not so long ago where they were discussing the fact that the children doing English Literature at GCSE and A level don't even have to read the book they are studying as they just get tested on specific paragraphs. How the heck can you "study" The Mill on the Floss withouth reading it? Also there is a problem with teens binge drinking here and the government feels that adding a couple of pence to the price of wine in the shops will change this..... I could go on but seeing as you are living in USA should I talk about the schooling / future of kids there.....???? What I am saying is that all countries have their problems. Education can be obtained in any country where the child is willing and is supported by parents just like a private schooling in Switzerland will not guarantee a good education to a spoilt brat who knows nothing of the real world. I know lots of youngsters in SA who have received an enducation there and are leading successful rewarding lives. At Government schools in Cape Town I may add not the private schools. My daughter is bright and being left to her own devices in the UK school whilst they focus on the children not meeting targets. She is doing tennis in a hall and swims in an indoor pool. She wants to do hockey and dancing but because she is doing tennis and there is only a limited amout of children that can use the hall at one time she can only do the one sport and let other children do the other sports. Wouldn't she be better off in an SA school doing sports outdoors on proper fields in the sunshine? Who knows what her future holds in 10 years time but the temptation to improve her years as a child is very very strong so I am not sure if your argument will convince many people who are wanting to return to SA for a better life for their children now hoping that their child will have a future in SA or failing which be able to go to another country and use their good foundation there??? :ranger:


Sorry Saartjie, the question was at Whenwe's post, my apologies.


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## Daxk

Saartjie said:


> Not sure where you get that impression. Where have I said that all schools are the same in the UK. I was speaking from a personal point of view. That is why I said that my daughter will have better access to education here. I was comparing where we lived in the UK to here, nowhere else in the UK. The Dole comment I don't get either. I didn't mention that.


sorry, my bad.
and I compare where I lived in SA, my lifestyle there, to where I live now.
And there are parts of Ireland that have major crime and drugs and are generally not great places.
But I dont have to live there.
unfortunately, because of the skills crises and the fact that the only way around the AA problem is to hire Expats who are doing "skills transfer" which shuts up the militants.
lot f that action happens in Gauteng, right where the majority of crime is.
and I know of three expats who were hired for the WC and "promoted" to Jhbg within 6 months.
and realised that ws the plan all along .

I looked at South-grating and discounted it as it was only a postponement for a white SA post middle age male.


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## Halo

@Saartjie - Sorry but I understand VERY well..... I don't believe that as a lawyer in the UK you would have a bad life - Far from it. As for your "off-cuff" comment about the education system - Sorry but the UK wins hands down.

I can take rudeness but I stop at ignorance... There are other factors at play as it does not tally.


----------



## Saartjie

Halo said:


> @Saartjie - Sorry but I understand VERY well..... I don't believe that as a lawyer in the UK you would have a bad life - Far from it. As for your "off-cuff" comment about the education system - Sorry but the UK wins hands down.
> 
> I can take rudeness but I stop at ignorance... There are other factors at play as it does not tally.


That's fine. You have previously 'educated' me about giving birth which you obviously have expert knowledge about. You are now educating me about how it is being a lawyer in the UK. Are you a lawyer? Have you worked as a lawyer in the UK? Please enlighten me on your expert knowledge that you seem to possess. Again, I have never stated that I had a bad life in the UK.

About schools in the UK. I shall explain as follows. Private education in the UK is so expensive that it is only accessible to a select few. State school education totally depends upon where you live. You might have experienced great state schools where you lived but I did not where I lived. So, my remark which was that my daughter will be able to have a better education here than in the UK is based on the fact that I would not have been able to afford private education there and she would have needed to attend a state school and in our area the schools were just not good enough. Here I can afford private education and so I think I have given my daughter a better start for her education by moving here. I do not see how that is an off the cuff remark. It is personal statement regarding my circumstances. 

You seem to indicate that I am being rude to you but with all due respect I never read a post from you that is not rude.

You can call me what you want but ignorant I am not.


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## Johanna

Saartjie said:


> That's fine. You have previously 'educated' me about giving birth which you obviously have expert knowledge about. You are now educating me about how it is being a lawyer in the UK. Are you a lawyer? Have you worked as a lawyer in the UK? Please enlighten me on your expert knowledge that you seem to possess. Again, I have never stated that I had a bad life in the UK.
> 
> About schools in the UK. I shall explain as follows. Private education in the UK is so expensive that it is only accessible to a select few. State school education totally depends upon where you live. You might have experienced great state schools where you lived but I did not where I lived. So, my remark which was that my daughter will be able to have a better education here than in the UK is based on the fact that I would not have been able to afford private education there and she would have needed to attend a state school and in our area the schools were just not good enough. Here I can afford private education and so I think I have given my daughter a better start for her education by moving here. I do not see how that is an off the cuff remark. It is personal statement regarding my circumstances.
> 
> You seem to indicate that I am being rude to you but with all due respect I never read a post from you that is not rude.
> 
> You can call me what you want but ignorant I am not.


It is hard getting through to some people, isn't it?


:focus::focus::focus:


Halo moved to Oz for a better quality of life , he keeps on harping about Bles Bridges ( whom he obviously misses sorely)

Thanks for a good reply Saartjie ---- never mess with a lawyer!

:boxing::boxing::boxing:


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## satori

My children all went to a state school in the UK. They were held back for the slower kids. I did their homework with them everyday plus some - if I am honest in a way I was educating them - not the school. I had no choice but to have them there due to area restrictions on choice of school. Don't know if it is better now but sports was literally wiped out then - first enough safety regs to turn my hair on end - second - competitive spirit was seen as a terrible blight on a childs development. 

Only one teacher stands out during my childrens schooling as a true teacher who inspired his pupils, so I guess I can't say it was all bad! And of course it is area dependent - but others in my area thought our schools were great, to my amazement.

I think if I had a youngster and could afford private schooling in SA I would jump at the chance personally.


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## WhenweB

satori said:


> My children all went to a state school in the UK. They were held back for the slower kids. I did their homework with them everyday plus some - if I am honest in a way I was educating them - not the school. I had no choice but to have them there due to area restrictions on choice of school. Don't know if it is better now but sports was literally wiped out then - first enough safety regs to turn my hair on end - second - competitive spirit was seen as a terrible blight on a childs development.
> 
> Only one teacher stands out during my childrens schooling as a true teacher who inspired his pupils, so I guess I can't say it was all bad! And of course it is area dependent - but others in my area thought our schools were great, to my amazement.
> 
> I think if I had a youngster and could afford private schooling in SA I would jump at the chance personally.


Absolutely agree Satori. My daughter has been lucky in that she had excellent teachers through infants and has an experienced fantastic teacher now but yes being held back whilst others get brought up to standards and I am doing lots of work with her at home. My daughter was very annoyed about the lack of competition in sport - her comments were "what's the point in winning the race if you all get a lollipop for competing at the end of it and nobody gets a medal for winning!" As a child I was always one of the losers and I just had to deal with that. Sure it would have been nice to have at least got a lollipop but it did teach me in life that not all of you can be good at everything and in adult life if you are not good at something nobody will be rewarding you for it or giving you credit for trying. It is a lovely notion of course but is it realistic. :ranger:


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## WhenweB

Daxk said:


> Saartjie and Whenwe, are all Schools in the UK, and all Counties in the UK like that?
> are most of the people in the UK on the Dole?
> 
> because thats the impression your post indicates..


No of course not Daxk but if you are 16 with the option of earning minimum wage or claiming benefits and getting a free house etc for not working which option would you take? Not all the schools in UK are bad but inner city ones have lots of problems. Good schools out in the countryside but expensive housing and difficult to commute to work each day. I am not saying I don't like England - its beautiful here with lovely people of all races and classes as well as pains in the butts of all classes and races just like anywhere else..... what I am saying though is that where we are living in UK and where we would be living in SA - if you compared the schools and standards of living we would be better off in SA. Ok so why haven't I moved yet..... because of crime and because I do take on board comments by other people on the forum as I do like to get different views and experiences and then form my decision based on that. I don't mean to be disrespectful as this country has been very good to me BUT based on the salary my husband earns as a Chartered Engineer and Progamme Manager where 40% goes on tax and the rest on inflated cost of living one can't help but entertain the "greener grass syndrome" and deliberate the "should we shouldn't we" dilemma.


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## satori

Relevant points above WhenweB. 

I'd add that later on if the kids grow up here it can be very difficult for them to get a foothold into the property market as well. Mine are in their twenties. They pay steep rentals on tiny places, even after living frugally they have little left to save. Their future - I just hope their businesses will eventually grow despite all the endless red tape & EU rules they face...

Still - they love it here and enjoy rich social lives. It's not about dissing the UK, it's about pragmatically trying to weigh up all the pro's and con's. 

I'm not averse to hearing about the con's from others _in SA_ who live the life daily. I think they are way more in touch with the subtler aspects of life there than many of the prophets of rampant doom & gloom that are abroad, and much more balanced. Lively debate is a great thing but it's when a person starts to slate others that I stop listening. 

People who choose to go back are not ignorant as some would like to believe to justify their own decisions and opinions. But just my opinion.


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## WhenweB

Saartjie said:


> That's fine. You have previously 'educated' me about giving birth which you obviously have expert knowledge about. You are now educating me about how it is being a lawyer in the UK. Are you a lawyer? Have you worked as a lawyer in the UK? Please enlighten me on your expert knowledge that you seem to possess. Again, I have never stated that I had a bad life in the UK.
> 
> About schools in the UK. I shall explain as follows. Private education in the UK is so expensive that it is only accessible to a select few. State school education totally depends upon where you live. You might have experienced great state schools where you lived but I did not where I lived. So, my remark which was that my daughter will be able to have a better education here than in the UK is based on the fact that I would not have been able to afford private education there and she would have needed to attend a state school and in our area the schools were just not good enough. Here I can afford private education and so I think I have given my daughter a better start for her education by moving here. I do not see how that is an off the cuff remark. It is personal statement regarding my circumstances.
> 
> You seem to indicate that I am being rude to you but with all due respect I never read a post from you that is not rude.
> 
> You can call me what you want but ignorant I am not.





Saartjie said:


> That's fine. You have previously 'educated' me about giving birth which you obviously have expert knowledge about. You are now educating me about how it is being a lawyer in the UK. Are you a lawyer? Have you worked as a lawyer in the UK? Please enlighten me on your expert knowledge that you seem to possess. Again, I have never stated that I had a bad life in the UK.
> 
> About schools in the UK. I shall explain as follows. Private education in the UK is so expensive that it is only accessible to a select few. State school education totally depends upon where you live. You might have experienced great state schools where you lived but I did not where I lived. So, my remark which was that my daughter will be able to have a better education here than in the UK is based on the fact that I would not have been able to afford private education there and she would have needed to attend a state school and in our area the schools were just not good enough. Here I can afford private education and so I think I have given my daughter a better start for her education by moving here. I do not see how that is an off the cuff remark. It is personal statement regarding my circumstances.
> 
> You seem to indicate that I am being rude to you but with all due respect I never read a post from you that is not rude.
> 
> You can call me what you want but ignorant I am not.


:clap2: give him hell Saartjie!!!! Excellent! Totally agree with you. There had been a very good private school in this area which last year had to stop charging fees and open its doors to all .... this was one of the top 100 schools in UK. Its still going but parents are no longer paying for education and the man who started the private school has washed his hands of it and started another new fee paying school ON THE SAME SITE as the ex private now Free school / acadamy. I am not quite sure what the government got out of that but there were many disgruntled parents of pupils already there and conversely happy parents who got their children in who would never have been able to afford it previously -still...... yes we could never afford private schooling here but will be able to afford it in Cape Town so what you are saying makes complete sense to me. You are certainly not ignorant.... do you think that perhaps Halo comes out with this stuff just to act as devils advocate and wind us all up????:boxing: (he was probably directing that at me not you anyway)


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## Stevan

schooling like medical care in the uk is a post code lottery unfortunatly.

i moved to devon from scotland. my daughter went to a very good primary school that fed into one of the best high schools in the area. we were asked on several occasions by people to use our address for there children so they could attend. eldest son went straight to high school and could not attenend the loccal one as it was full. he had to go to a school only about five miles away, it was terrible.

we moved back to scotland as my youngest where about to attend high school. there where a few very good private schools costing more than my monthly salary per month to attend so they went to the local state school. my son is a self confessed rugby addict, no school team as it was to dangerous. drugs being sold outside and inside the school. the place was a shambles and it was a resonably modern school built within the last ten years.

here my kids receive private education at what i see as a very reasonable rate. they are incouraged in sport not discouraged. they feel part of a wider family at school and love the place. 

i have found that all the south african children/young adults that visit my house to be so polite and well mannered. when i visit the school every child greets you with respect and asks if you need any help. my opinion, and it is mine and mine alone. my childrens education in south africa is far better than in the uk. there life style is far better. they enjoy south africa far better than UK. there opinion not mine.

I think daxk made an excelent point. there are places in the southern ireland that he would not live in. there are places in the uk that are no almost no go areas. i had a wonderful upbringing on the dorset coast. up at seven in the morning and of to the beach with a towel and a sandwich, it never rained when we were young, this at seven and eight years old. no parents they would join us later after work. i wouldnt let my kids do that now in dorset. we did think of moving back there but couldnt afford a house and couldnt find work. 

There are lots of places that i would not want to live in south africa, so i dont.

and to answer another comment. yes i have pounds comming in from a uk pension. in the uk it did not go far, here it goes a very long way. and would i have moved if i didnt have uk pounds comming in, no i wouldnt have. it was one of the deciders for us when we saw how much we got for it compared to the uk. we wanted to live on the south coast where wages are very bad so my pension takes our life style from alright to very nice thankyou very much.

sorry for the rammble and the spelling mistakes, my parents sent me to a state school where spelling was not corrected.


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## Daxk

I still have very close links to SA and talk to either my offices in Sandton or to Family a number of times weekly.
I certainly do not feel I'm out of touch with what happens either good or bad in three places, Gauteng, KZN and Cape Town.
especially as the people I talk to have no axe to grind.
lets look at a scenario

Young Couple with two kids return/emigrate to SA permanently (20 plus years)
Career:
Salaried employee,At some stage the glass ceiling of AA is going to affect career growth.
a very common SA phenomena is the golden handshake at mid fifties.

At present Vat Income and personal tax paid by 13,000,000 is about equal,however, effectively 60 plus % of Sa's population have no fixed income, so Vat receipts and Income tax has to support roughly 30 million and of those a further 60% are under 18 and functionally illiterate.

So Income Tax and hidden taxes such as Toll fees , fuel levies, etc will increase as apart from Social Benefits such as education and Health and transport, SA needs massive infrastructure investment iro of Electricity, Schools, and the most worrying, de-contamination of the water Supply on the Highveld.

Private Education and health care is expensive, but necessary and will increase.
.
Unless the kids are streamed, pace is going to be at the slowest multiple common denominator too.

At University, access is awarded to the top 9% of Matriculation marks on sought after Degrees in line with racial demographics.

If AA continues at the same pace your recently degreed children will also have difficulty in finding work.

So they will leave.
round about the time you want to spend time with them.

At this point in time I have three nieces, one at Varsity studying Med as she was in the Top 3% in SA, two studying B.Com part time as they could not get in, one Nephew with Uni exemption working in a liquor store as he is interested in the law and cannot get in,and one staying at home playing computer games as he cant get in to study Physio and has to re-write his matric to get into the top 9%

They will all leave.


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## WhenweB

Stevan said:


> schooling like medical care in the uk is a post code lottery unfortunatly.
> 
> i moved to devon from scotland. my daughter went to a very good primary school that fed into one of the best high schools in the area. we were asked on several occasions by people to use our address for there children so they could attend. eldest son went straight to high school and could not attenend the loccal one as it was full. he had to go to a school only about five miles away, it was terrible.
> 
> we moved back to scotland as my youngest where about to attend high school. there where a few very good private schools costing more than my monthly salary per month to attend so they went to the local state school. my son is a self confessed rugby addict, no school team as it was to dangerous. drugs being sold outside and inside the school. the place was a shambles and it was a resonably modern school built within the last ten years.
> 
> here my kids receive private education at what i see as a very reasonable rate. they are incouraged in sport not discouraged. they feel part of a wider family at school and love the place.
> 
> i have found that all the south african children/young adults that visit my house to be so polite and well mannered. when i visit the school every child greets you with respect and asks if you need any help. my opinion, and it is mine and mine alone. my childrens education in south africa is far better than in the uk. there life style is far better. they enjoy south africa far better than UK. there opinion not mine.
> 
> I think daxk made an excelent point. there are places in the southern ireland that he would not live in. there are places in the uk that are no almost no go areas. i had a wonderful upbringing on the dorset coast. up at seven in the morning and of to the beach with a towel and a sandwich, it never rained when we were young, this at seven and eight years old. no parents they would join us later after work. i wouldnt let my kids do that now in dorset. we did think of moving back there but couldnt afford a house and couldnt find work.
> 
> There are lots of places that i would not want to live in south africa, so i dont.
> 
> and to answer another comment. yes i have pounds comming in from a uk pension. in the uk it did not go far, here it goes a very long way. and would i have moved if i didnt have uk pounds comming in, no i wouldnt have. it was one of the deciders for us when we saw how much we got for it compared to the uk. we wanted to live on the south coast where wages are very bad so my pension takes our life style from alright to very nice thankyou very much.
> 
> sorry for the rammble and the spelling mistakes, my parents sent me to a state school where spelling was not corrected.


Oh Stevan I do love the comment about the spelling...... terrible innit! I have been told by teachers not to correct my daughters spelling because it discourages the natural flow of creative writing and as long as their spelling is phonetically correct then that is okay. They are now learning some spellings each week thank goodness but we did miss the opportunity when they were in infant school and their intelligence had not yet exceeded their parents (in their opinion anyway) .... 

I am pleased that you are happy in SA and that your pension is logically going to be worth more over there. My mother is British but lived in SA for too long to get the UK pension so she does battle a lot but she can't return here either so staying put in Cape Town for the time being. 

I went to a government school in Cape Town. One of the best (Wynberg) in my opinion and if I could give my daughter that lovely upbringing I wouldn't hesitate. She is happy and settled in UK though and doesn't want to leave her friends so very hard decision to make. Great to read your story though - very encouraging.


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## WhenweB

Love Dorset too by the way - especially Bournemouth. We often go there and it is the closest I get to feeling at home in UK. Also house prices too high and no jobs for my husband there so can't move there. Pity.


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## WhenweB

Daxk said:


> I still have very close links to SA and talk to either my offices in Sandton or to Family a number of times weekly.
> I certainly do not feel I'm out of touch with what happens either good or bad in three places, Gauteng, KZN and Cape Town.
> especially as the people I talk to have no axe to grind.
> lets look at a scenario
> 
> Young Couple with two kids return/emigrate to SA permanently (20 plus years)
> Career:
> Salaried employee,At some stage the glass ceiling of AA is going to affect career growth.
> a very common SA phenomena is the golden handshake at mid fifties.
> 
> At present Vat Income and personal tax paid by 13,000,000 is about equal,however, effectively 60 plus % of Sa's population have no fixed income, so Vat receipts and Income tax has to support roughly 30 million and of those a further 60% are under 18 and functionally illiterate.
> 
> So Income Tax and hidden taxes such as Toll fees , fuel levies, etc will increase as apart from Social Benefits such as education and Health and transport, SA needs massive infrastructure investment iro of Electricity, Schools, and the most worrying, de-contamination of the water Supply on the Highveld.
> 
> Private Education and health care is expensive, but necessary and will increase.
> .
> Unless the kids are streamed, pace is going to be at the slowest multiple common denominator too.
> 
> At University, access is awarded to the top 9% of Matriculation marks on sought after Degrees in line with racial demographics.
> 
> If AA continues at the same pace your recently degreed children will also have difficulty in finding work.
> 
> So they will leave.
> round about the time you want to spend time with them.
> 
> At this point in time I have three nieces, one at Varsity studying Med as she was in the Top 3% in SA, two studying B.Com part time as they could not get in, one Nephew with Uni exemption working in a liquor store as he is interested in the law and cannot get in,and one staying at home playing computer games as he cant get in to study Physio and has to re-write his matric to get into the top 9%
> 
> They will all leave.


Okay that is very interesting and sad too but I have friends and family over in UK who equally did well at school and university and now have trouble finding jobs. Similarly I have a friend with 2 daughters in their 20s in Cape Town who had private schooling, went to university and are doing really well in their jobs in advertising and graphic design. A friend with 3 neices all taught in government schools in CT - didn't go to Uni but one is a well paid manager of a sporting shop having started their part time after school, 1 came to UK and did a year of work experience here in fashion design then went back and started her own business in bridal dress design, the third went to secretarial college and is just making ends meet and living with her boyfriend. Not going to be able to afford to buy but then many people in UK aren't either. Back to the drawing board - where is Utopia then????


----------



## Daxk

whenweb said:


> okay that is very interesting and sad too but i have friends and family over in uk who equally did well at school and university and now have trouble finding jobs. Similarly i have a friend with 2 daughters in their 20s in cape town who had private schooling, went to university and are doing really well in their jobs in advertising and graphic design. A friend with 3 neices all taught in government schools in ct - didn't go to uni but one is a well paid manager of a sporting shop having started their part time after school, 1 came to uk and did a year of work experience here in fashion design then went back and started her own business in bridal dress design, the third went to secretarial college and is just making ends meet and living with her boyfriend. Not going to be able to afford to buy but then many people in uk aren't either. Back to the drawing board - where is utopia then????


 4° 35' s, 55° 40' e :d:d:d


----------



## vegasboy

Daxk said:


> I still have very close links to SA and talk to either my offices in Sandton or to Family a number of times weekly.
> I certainly do not feel I'm out of touch with what happens either good or bad in three places, Gauteng, KZN and Cape Town.
> especially as the people I talk to have no axe to grind.
> lets look at a scenario
> 
> Young Couple with two kids return/emigrate to SA permanently (20 plus years)
> Career:
> Salaried employee,At some stage the glass ceiling of AA is going to affect career growth.
> a very common SA phenomena is the golden handshake at mid fifties.
> 
> At present Vat Income and personal tax paid by 13,000,000 is about equal,however, effectively 60 plus % of Sa's population have no fixed income, so Vat receipts and Income tax has to support roughly 30 million and of those a further 60% are under 18 and functionally illiterate.
> 
> So Income Tax and hidden taxes such as Toll fees , fuel levies, etc will increase as apart from Social Benefits such as education and Health and transport, SA needs massive infrastructure investment iro of Electricity, Schools, and the most worrying, de-contamination of the water Supply on the Highveld.
> 
> Private Education and health care is expensive, but necessary and will increase.
> .
> Unless the kids are streamed, pace is going to be at the slowest multiple common denominator too.
> 
> At University, access is awarded to the top 9% of Matriculation marks on sought after Degrees in line with racial demographics.
> 
> If AA continues at the same pace your recently degreed children will also have difficulty in finding work.
> 
> So they will leave.
> round about the time you want to spend time with them.
> 
> At this point in time I have three nieces, one at Varsity studying Med as she was in the Top 3% in SA, two studying B.Com part time as they could not get in, one Nephew with Uni exemption working in a liquor store as he is interested in the law and cannot get in,and one staying at home playing computer games as he cant get in to study Physio and has to re-write his matric to get into the top 9%
> 
> They will all leave.


 Great response Daxk! Exactly my sentiment too. For the record: I still spend more time in South Africa than in the USA per year. My transitional process to the US is slow as it involves my wife and kids, companies and real estate. My oldest son is moving to the US this May and will be starting at university in September this year. The second child will follow suit in 2014 and the last one a few years later.

In 2011 I personally witnessed my son's friends with straight A's not being accepted at medical schools while their black friends were, despite having much lower grades. Do you know what psychological impact that had on those kids, even though it was explained to them that it was about AA and not to be taken personal?

I deal with individuals (in South Africa) on a weekly basis who suffer from depression because they were overlooked at promotion time; when people with far less and sometimes no experience and years their junior, were promoted at their expense; when they were put on pension at the age of 50 to make room for AA candidates, knowing that their pension will be insufficient to maintain them when they're old.

As someone pointed out: If you moved to South Africa believing your kids will be better off, good for you. I'm sure that we all make the best decisions possible for our kids sake, as was stated by someone else. 

But remember that however much you may research and deep into the issue, if you haven't lived here for 15 plus years you wouldn't understand the rapid decay in all spheres of life and society over and above the 'normal world wide deterioration' which will reduce South Africa to another Zimbabwean banana republic in years to come. Certain individuals, some of them your kids, may and will hopefully still thrive if they have a knack for business so they can do their own thing, but my concern remains for those who don't have it - professionals who are dependent on working in a corporate environment. 

Yes, functional decay happens all over the world (US, UK, OZ etc.) but there is a significant difference with how it happens in South Africa, where for instance there now are three security guards for each police officer in the country. 

The struggle ideology of 1994 that was supposed to set the scene for years to come, has failed to produce a coherent and functional mindset. The future is now collapsing on the past.

It breaks your heart when you see your kid not being able to live his/her dream because of having to pay for the sins of their fathers.


----------



## Stevan

Daxk said:


> 4° 35' s, 55° 40' e :d:d:d


thats the Seychelles. we have all got it wrong. lets stop arguing and move. meet you on the beech daxk im buying the first round.


----------



## Daxk

Stevan said:


> thats the Seychelles. we have all got it wrong. lets stop arguing and move. meet you on the beech daxk im buying the first round.


Done.
but we have to hurry, when the Icebergs melt it will all be under water again!!


----------



## Stevan

dont go spoil it now i just packed my mankini and everything.


----------



## Stevan

> But remember that however much you may research and deep into the issue, if you haven't lived here for 15 plus years you wouldn't understand the rapid decay in all spheres of life and society over and above the 'normal world wide deterioration'


and many people would say the same about the UK.

in ten years time we may still be having this same debate (please lets keep it as debate and not an argument)

well not me and daxk we will be in the seychelles with skin like leather back turtles from to much sun and livers like pickled walnuts.


----------



## Johanna

Stevan said:


> and many people would say the same about the UK.
> 
> in ten years time we may still be having this same debate (please lets keep it as debate and not an argument)
> 
> well not me and daxk we will be in the seychelles with skin like leather back turtles from to much sun and livers like pickled walnuts.


 What about me?


----------



## Daxk

Stevan said:


> dont go spoil it now i just packed my mankini and everything.


where's the upchuck smilie???


----------



## Daxk

Johanna said:


> What about me?


what about you? you can wear a mankini if you wish but I would prefer nothing better!


----------



## Johanna

Daxk said:


> where's the upchuck smilie???




:doh::doh:


Could not find it.....


Need a pic of you and Stevan in your mankinis!


----------



## Daxk

If you insist!!
http://www.queerty.com/wp/docs/2009/04/mankini3.jpg


----------



## Johanna

Daxk said:


> If you insist!!
> http://www.queerty.com/wp/docs/2009/04/mankini3.jpg




See there are many green ones there, are they all Irish?


:clap2::clap2::clap2:


----------



## Daxk

Johanna said:


> See there are many green ones there, are they all Irish?
> 
> 
> :clap2::clap2::clap2:


No, Stevan's the one with the walker
(Guess the Tans gave it away?)


----------



## WhenweB

Oh how funny - I can just imagine you all sitting having a braai and drinking beer on the beach putting the world to rights (and still not solving the problem I may add as I don't think there is actually a solution) BUT anyway its interesting to hear everyone's opinions and of course it is a debate not argument Stevan - I certainly wouldn't be spending so much time on this forum if I didn't have a respect for the experiences and opinions of the others - all so well travelled and experienced it would be silly not to take heed of what is being said. I just wish that it wasn't such a difficult decision but it is and I just hope I do the right thing for my daughter and hubby at the end of it.....


----------



## Daxk

Johanna said:


> See there are many green ones there, are they all Irish?
> 
> 
> :clap2::clap2::clap2:


what the hell!!
my first response was "No, there are a couple of cold blue ones too"


----------



## Johanna

WhenweB said:


> Oh how funny - I can just imagine you all sitting having a braai and drinking beer on the beach putting the world to rights (and still not solving the problem I may add as I don't think there is actually a solution) BUT anyway its interesting to hear everyone's opinions and of course it is a debate not argument Stevan - I certainly wouldn't be spending so much time on this forum if I didn't have a respect for the experiences and opinions of the others - all so well travelled and experienced it would be silly not to take heed of what is being said. I just wish that it wasn't such a difficult decision but it is and I just hope I do the right thing for my daughter and hubby at the end of it.....


Just by the way, I will drink champagne, not beer....  

You are not the only one to make a decision WhenweB, your husband has a choice in the matter as well.



Take care and be happy!


----------



## Johanna

Daxk said:


> what the hell!!
> my first response was "No, there are a couple of cold blue ones too"


:
Very tiny ones




OK , time out for me!


Enjoy the rest of your evening all!



And behave!!!!!!!


----------



## Daxk

At my Age????Why???????


----------



## Halo

Saartjie said:


> That's fine. You have previously 'educated' me about giving birth which you obviously have expert knowledge about. You are now educating me about how it is being a lawyer in the UK. Are you a lawyer? Have you worked as a lawyer in the UK? Please enlighten me on your expert knowledge that you seem to possess. Again, I have never stated that I had a bad life in the UK.
> 
> About schools in the UK. I shall explain as follows. Private education in the UK is so expensive that it is only accessible to a select few. State school education totally depends upon where you live. You might have experienced great state schools where you lived but I did not where I lived. So, my remark which was that my daughter will be able to have a better education here than in the UK is based on the fact that I would not have been able to afford private education there and she would have needed to attend a state school and in our area the schools were just not good enough. Here I can afford private education and so I think I have given my daughter a better start for her education by moving here. I do not see how that is an off the cuff remark. It is personal statement regarding my circumstances.
> 
> You seem to indicate that I am being rude to you but with all due respect I never read a post from you that is not rude.
> 
> You can call me what you want but ignorant I am not.


Worked with Lawyers all the time do get through my various contracts.... So, I know the pay range and with that you can most certainly afford a private school unless the old man is on the Dole.

My posts are direct - Not rude... Learn the difference.

*Bles.... Yes - Man do I miss that... Plank Music was my all time favorite watching 100 crazed individuals run around in circles with powder on the floor - Highly amusing.* :eyebrows:

Sadly however the numbers do NOT stack up. Perhaps in Saartjie's case its an anomaly but professional people in the UK are paid well and can live in an area where there are good state schools or reasonably priced private ones. Then there is health care, insurance and all the other bells and whistles that come free in the UK..... (you never did say where you lived in the UK - If bad you could move)


----------



## Johanna

Halo said:


> Worked with Lawyers all the time do get through my various contracts.... So, I know the pay range and with that you can most certainly afford a private school unless the old man is on the Dole.
> 
> My post are direct - Not rude... Learn the difference.
> 
> *Bles.... Yes - Man do I miss that... Plank Music was my all time favorite watching 100 crazed individuals run around in circles with powder on the floor - Highly amusing.* :eyebrows:
> 
> Sadly however the numbers do NOT stack up. Perhaps in Saartjie's case its an anomaly but professional people in the UK are paid well and can live in an area where there are good state schools or reasonably priced private ones. Then there is health care, insurance and all the other bells and whistles that come free in the UK..... (you never did say where you lived in the UK)


Whom did you address this reply to Halo?


----------



## Stevan

Johanna said:


> :
> Very tiny ones
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK , time out for me!
> 
> 
> Enjoy the rest of your evening all!
> 
> 
> 
> And behave!!!!!!!


ohhhhhhhh thats mean


----------



## stormgal

vegasboy said:


> In 2011 I personally witnessed my son's friends with straight A's not being accepted at medical schools while their black friends were, despite having much lower grades. Do you know what psychological impact that had on those kids, even though it was explained to them that it was about AA and not to be taken personal?



Well, no offense to you, (and for the record, I'm not African American), but playing "devil's advocate", in the United States, back in the day, people were kept out of these Universities exactly because they weren't White. So nowadays, we have an unequal income distribution where some people have inherited wealth (meaning the home and cash that Whites were able to pass down to their children because they were properly educated and were able to accumulate wealth), while some African Americans and others inherited nothing because their parents weren't allowed the opportunities to get into these schools strictly because of the color of their skin. 

So the psychological impact works both ways. The point is that the effects of yesterday's discrimination are still being felt today by the groups of people who were the recipients of it. 

Now, I strongly believe that Affirmative Action should still be allowed, however, it shouldn't be based on the color of one's skin, but on a person's income, so that people (of all colors) can have an opportunity to progress and eventually pull their own financial weight.


----------



## Daxk

stormgal said:


> Well, no offense to you, (and for the record, I'm not African American), but playing "devil's advocate", in the United States, back in the day, people were kept out of these Universities exactly because they weren't White. So nowadays, we have an unequal income distribution where some people have inherited wealth (meaning the home and cash that Whites were able to pass down to their children because they were properly educated and were able to accumulate wealth), while some African Americans and others inherited nothing because their parents weren't allowed the opportunities to get into these schools strictly because of the color of their skin.
> 
> So the psychological impact works both ways. The point is that the effects of yesterday's discrimination are still being felt today by the groups of people who were the recipients of it.
> 
> Now, I strongly believe that Affirmative Action should still be allowed, however, it shouldn't be based on the color of one's skin, but on a person's income, so that people (of all colors) can have an opportunity to progress and eventually pull their own financial weight.


Stormgal, I agree with your belief on AA, I also firmly believe that two people with the same degree, neither is still disadvantged.

as to your comments about residual effects.
when did equality happen in the US iro of education, home ownership, franchise?
SA has had it for 18 years, kids starting at Varsity are known as born free's....
I have no idea about te States, never lived there.

what I do know is that I, (and my friends) worked through our varsity, I drove an Ambulance, waited Tables, cooked steaks, served hamburgers and had to study part time as well...
Our Maids Black son had the same Old Mutual Education Policy paid for by my Father, 
mine lasted a years fees, his an entire 4 years at Fort Hare.


apart from the Ambulance, I got paid the same as the black staff.
there was no free ride.

My Fathers Family were Poor whites, they all got educated.

My Grandfather was illiterate beyond writing his name.

what they did have was a desire to succeed.


----------



## stormgal

Daxk said:


> Stormgal, I agree with your belief on AA, I also firmly believe that two people with the same degree, neither is still disadvantged.


This is a very good point. But I think admissions committees and others are thinking more in terms of statistics. 



> as to your comments about residual effects.
> when did equality happen in the US iro of education, home ownership, franchise?
> SA has had it for 18 years, kids starting at Varsity are known as born free's....
> I have no idea about te States, never lived there.
> 
> what I do know is that I, (and my friends) worked through our varsity, I drove an Ambulance, waited Tables, cooked steaks, served hamburgers and had to study part time as well...
> Our Maids Black son had the same Old Mutual Education Policy paid for by my Father,
> mine lasted a years fees, his an entire 4 years at Fort Hare.
> 
> 
> apart from the Ambulance, I got paid the same as the black staff.
> there was no free ride.
> 
> My Fathers Family were Poor whites, they all got educated.
> 
> My Grandfather was illiterate beyond writing his name.
> 
> what they did have was a desire to succeed.



Yes, I agree 100% with you. To be honest, I'm not sure which country had better rights, because it wasn't only since the 60's and the whole civil rights movement that all people were given equal opportunities on the legal/governmental scale in the US. 

As for the race factor, honestly speaking, I don't think that it will matter in the near future when it comes to these things. I see affirmative action and other such programs being removed and what will matter is the "social class" and really, who you know and how much money you can bring in. That's what people really care about: How much money the person can bring in - if a decision maker sees potential for big bucks in you, well then that's when the opportunities come about.
Money is really the driving force behind it all - you can bet your bottom dollar on it.

I have seen this in my lifetime. You can be black, white, gay or whatever. If they can't find a way you are able to bring them money, better put your playing pieces back in the box, cause you're not going to be in the game.


----------



## Johanna

Daxk said:


> My Fathers Family were Poor whites, they all got educated.
> 
> My Grandfather was illiterate beyond writing his name.
> 
> what they did have was a desire to succeed.


 And they they were allowed to succeed Daxk, as did I.
I borrowed money and could pay it off, but only because of the fact that I was white, I could attend a decent state school, attend two of the best universities in the country ( no blacks were allowed, even if they had the financial means.)


As whites we were privileged

It does not suit many whites that black people are now given positions ( and they may not be able to do the job as in the past there was job reservation..)

O do stop Johanna.


----------



## Daxk

Johanna said:


> And they they were allowed to succeed Daxk, as did I.
> I borrowed money and could pay it off, but only because of the fact that I was white, I could attend a decent state school, attend two of the best universities in the country ( no blacks were allowed, even if they had the financial means.)
> 
> 
> As whites we were privileged
> 
> It does not suit many whites that black people are now given positions ( and they may not be able to do the job as in the past there was job reservation..)
> 
> O do stop Johanna.


Johanna, just some quick questions, 
were there no Black graduates in SA from 1948 to 1993?
(I agree that Bantu Education was a travesty)
read up on the poor White Situation in SA 1930-1950
there was also Job reservation and limited Education possibilities.

ext: its been 18 years.
the only reason someone with a University degree cannot do his work is because he is incompetent or lazy.
and using job reservation is no excuse.

As whites we were priviledged.
how long before that stops being an excuse?


----------



## Johanna

Daxk said:


> Johanna, just some quick questions,
> were there no Black graduates in SA from 1948 to 1993?
> (I agree that Bantu Education was a travesty)
> read up on the poor White Situation in SA 1930-1950
> there was also Job reservation and limited Education possibilities.
> 
> ext: its been 18 years.
> the only reason someone with a University degree cannot do his work is because he is incompetent or lazy.
> and using job reservation is no excuse.
> 
> As whites we were priviledged.
> how long before that stops being an excuse?


Daxk, you know very well that there were black graduates ( from SA universities)
But compare the numbers ( let's be honest now!) .... many more whites than blacks. Not fair! You said yourself Bantu education was a travesty.
It has only been 18 years, thus a child born in 1994 may be in grade 12 now, or just be starting university.
I wish could post an interview with Prof Jonathan Jansen...... was on Carte Blanche last Sunday. Children in poor areas still receive very bad education. 

I do not think it is fair of white people to think that 18 years is sufficient time to "get over" the past.

Would you have been able to get over the fact that you, your parents, grandparents did not receive humane treatment?

Please, give the people of this country a chance. Everyone wants to be happy, healthy, etc.

Job reservation was a criminal thing, why do we not have black plumbers, electricians, etc.... whites only jobs in the past.

Okie dokie, I am off for the evening!


----------



## Daxk

Johanna said:


> Daxk, you know very well that there were black graduates ( from SA universities)
> But compare the numbers ( let's be honest now!) .... many more whites than blacks. Not fair! You said yourself Bantu education was a travesty.
> It has only been 18 years, thus a child born in 1994 may be in grade 12 now, or just be starting university.
> I wish could post an interview with Prof Jonathan Jansen...... was on Carte Blanche last Sunday. Children in poor areas still receive very bad education.
> 
> I do not think it is fair of white people to think that 18 years is sufficient time to "get over" the past.
> 
> Would you have been able to get over the fact that you, your parents, grandparents did not receive humane treatment?
> 
> Please, give the people of this country a chance. Everyone wants to be happy, healthy, etc.
> 
> Job reservation was a criminal thing, why do we not have black plumbers, electricians, etc.... whites only jobs in the past.
> 
> Okie dokie, I am off for the evening!


CHicken!!!!

My Grandparents and great grandparents did NOT recieve Humane treatment.
but thats a searate thread as I dont wish to embarrass our English visitors with the sins of their Forefathers.:boxing:

I think 20 years is sufficient to start working together (thats how long its actually been) without attitudes of either entitlement or aggrievement.
on both sides.

Electricians/plumbers and tradesmen average age in SA is 50 plus.
One of the Companies I was involved with set up apprenticeship training schemes
through the SETAS Levy (skills training levy)
we offered Training, lectures under the auspices of NUMSA and the various guilds, paid pocket money and transport costs as well as feeding them breakfast, lunch and a 3pm snack.
work, training and pocket money.
we were allowed to run it according to AA rules, 9.3 white 9.75 coloured, balance black.
we started with one hundred.
18 qualified.
one was black.
first question?
what company car do I get as an electrician?

Black education IS a disaster.
why??
because the first thing Kadar Asmal did as the new Education Minister is close 150 Teachers training Colleges.
the very ones that had created and trained every teacher that you or I had, with study loans and student accomodation.
next thing, all teachers had to get a B.Ed, which was a 4 year course after which they got paid exactly half of the similar B.Proc or B.Sco Sc HR degrees did and no Company Car..

Result? massive loss of teachers

where exactly is that the fault of the past?

I can go on and on, through the Justice Department, SAPS, Eskom, Municipalities....


----------



## Saartjie

Halo said:


> Worked with Lawyers all the time do get through my various contracts.... So, I know the pay range and with that you can most certainly afford a private school unless the old man is on the Dole.
> 
> My posts are direct - Not rude... Learn the difference.
> 
> *Bles.... Yes - Man do I miss that... Plank Music was my all time favorite watching 100 crazed individuals run around in circles with powder on the floor - Highly amusing.* :eyebrows:
> 
> Sadly however the numbers do NOT stack up. Perhaps in Saartjie's case its an anomaly but professional people in the UK are paid well and can live in an area where there are good state schools or reasonably priced private ones. Then there is health care, insurance and all the other bells and whistles that come free in the UK..... (you never did say where you lived in the UK - If bad you could move)


You obviously already know how much I earned in the UK so what's the point of arguing with you. My husband has always earned more than me and has never been on the Dole although I am not sure what that has to do with anything. I have told you previously where I lived in the UK. It was Chelmsford but I worked in London. So my area I would not consider bad but I did move... to SA. Not sure what private schools you sent your kids to (I assume that you did since you know how much it costs) but the one's we looked at where far too expensive for us to even consider.

As to being direct, if that's what you want to call it, be my guest.


----------



## Saartjie

Johanna said:


> Whom did you address this reply to Halo?


It is for me Johanna, can't you tell. He just never ends. If my initial reply had been read properly like everyone else seems to have read it, this conversation would have been over and done with a long time ago. It just seems hard to accept that I have a better life here in SA than I did in the UK. Not sure what is so strange about that? I mean, I am not the only one who has stated this.


----------



## Johanna

Saartjie said:


> It is for me Johanna, can't you tell. He just never ends. If my initial reply had been read properly like everyone else seems to have read it, this conversation would have been over and done with a long time ago. It just seems hard to accept that I have a better life here in SA than I did in the UK. Not sure what is so strange about that? I mean, I am not the only one who has stated this.


Not the whole posting Saartjie....

But thank you for your replies and attitude!:boxing:


----------



## Johanna

Daxk said:


> CHicken!!!!
> 
> My Grandparents and great grandparents did NOT recieve Humane treatment.
> but thats a searate thread as I dont wish to embarrass our English visitors with the sins of their Forefathers.:boxing:
> 
> I think 20 years is sufficient to start working together (thats how long its actually been) without attitudes of either entitlement or aggrievement.
> on both sides.
> 
> Electricians/plumbers and tradesmen average age in SA is 50 plus.
> One of the Companies I was involved with set up apprenticeship training schemes
> through the SETAS Levy (skills training levy)
> we offered Training, lectures under the auspices of NUMSA and the various guilds, paid pocket money and transport costs as well as feeding them breakfast, lunch and a 3pm snack.
> work, training and pocket money.
> we were allowed to run it according to AA rules, 9.3 white 9.75 coloured, balance black.
> we started with one hundred.
> 18 qualified.
> one was black.
> first question?
> what company car do I get as an electrician?
> 
> Black education IS a disaster.
> why??
> because the first thing Kadar Asmal did as the new Education Minister is close 150 Teachers training Colleges.
> the very ones that had created and trained every teacher that you or I had, with study loans and student accomodation.
> next thing, all teachers had to get a B.Ed, which was a 4 year course after which they got paid exactly half of the similar B.Proc or B.Sco Sc HR degrees did and no Company Car..
> 
> Result? massive loss of teachers
> 
> where exactly is that the fault of the past?
> 
> I can go on and on, through the Justice Department, SAPS, Eskom, Municipalities....


What are saying about services is true, but do remember, basic education was not allowed to all people. 

How can anyone expect untrained people to know what to do.

But the new government pushed ahead...... I think I would have too, seeing as the most basic of human rights were denied to the majority of the people..
We are easy to cast stones 
40 years of apartheid ( official apartheid ) did a lot of damage, we all know that peoples were not allowed to "mix" in the olden days and long before "apartheid" was written into the statue books , it existed.

Daxk, let us discuss this privately please!

And then : :focus:


I am not a chicken ...:eyebrows::eyebrows:


Not an ostrich either.... :

I am who I am!


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## Halo

Saartjie said:


> You obviously already know how much I earned in the UK so what's the point of arguing with you. My husband has always earned more than me and has never been on the Dole although I am not sure what that has to do with anything. I have told you previously where I lived in the UK. It was Chelmsford but I worked in London. So my area I would not consider bad but I did move... to SA. Not sure what private schools you sent your kids to (I assume that you did since you know how much it costs) but the one's we looked at where far too expensive for us to even consider.
> 
> As to being direct, if that's what you want to call it, be my guest.


Then you have no excuse...... An Essex girl hey  - I like that area....
St Annes Preparatoy School is easily affordable....

You'll soon see what the real cost of life is. 

PS My kids go to a State School in Australia - I'm young still - Kinda.


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## Halo

Johanna said:


> What are saying about services is true, but do remember, basic education was not allowed to all people.
> 
> How can anyone expect untrained people to know what to do.
> 
> But the new government pushed ahead...... I think I would have too, seeing as the most basic of human rights were denied to the majority of the people..
> We are easy to cast stones
> 40 years of apartheid ( official apartheid ) did a lot of damage, we all know that peoples were not allowed to "mix" in the olden days and long before "apartheid" was written into the statue books , it existed.
> 
> Daxk, let us discuss this privately please!
> 
> And then : :focus:
> 
> 
> I am not a chicken ...:eyebrows::eyebrows:
> 
> 
> Not an ostrich either.... :
> 
> I am who I am!


This is nonsense.... Education was available to all............

This is not a pissing match but you have to take things in context.... And look at the global picture. In what country was their no apartheid? SA just coined a word. Get over it..... Be like the Japanese - Stop moaning and build.


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## Johanna

Halo said:


> This is nonsense.... Education was available to all............
> 
> This is not a pissing match but you have to take things in context.... And look at the global picture. In what country was their no apartheid? SA just coined a word. Get over it..... Be like the Japanese - Stop moaning and build.


Wow, you are certainly very well educated... why resort to swearing? Temper your language.

You know that black education was inferior to white education.

In Japan all people are Japanese.

If the thread continues in this vain, I will have to close it.

:focus::focus:


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## Halo

Johanna said:


> Wow, you are certainly very well educated... why resort to swearing? Temper your language.
> 
> You know that black education was inferior to white education.
> 
> In Japan all people are Japanese.
> 
> If the thread continues in this vain, I will have to close it.
> 
> :focus::focus:


Its an English saying.... (google it) - Change the word if you wish.

And your point? It happened everywhere..... Sure it does not make it right but its how the world worked... We learn and we move on.

Its not in vain - Its just the unwillingness to grok.

Lets not fabricate reality...... Bantu education was of a lesser standard but was better than what the rest of Africa had....(or still has) What do you know about African History..?

SA is a complex environment.. True understanding is required.


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## Johanna

Halo said:


> Its an English saying.... (google it) - Change the word if you wish.
> 
> And your point? It happened everywhere..... Sure it does not make it right but its how the world worked... We learn and we move on.
> 
> Its not in vain - Its just the unwillingness to grok.
> 
> Lets not fabricate reality...... Bantu education was of a lesser standard but was better than what the rest of Africa had....(or still has) What do you know about African History..?
> 
> SA is a complex environment.. True understanding is required.


 I do not need to google a saying.

You are being rude.


We are not talking about the rest of Africa, the topic is about South Africa.


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## Saartjie

No I wouldn't say I am an Essex Girl I am just a Swede who happened to end up in Essex. I loved Chelmsford, we moved there from east London and it was such an improvement.

Fine fine, I back down, you have found a school that seems to be reasonably priced.:clap2:

As to the real cost of life. I am not able to see into the future so cannot comment on this. For now life is good, I am happy, my husband is happy and my child is happy and that is good enough for me right now. Still, I miss my parents and my brother terribly (although my dad is here at the moment so can't complain) back in Sweden and although I am happy here I can sometimes feel that my heart is still partly in the land of my birth so who knows where we will end up. I am also totally aware that should the #@$% hit the fan, we all have Swedish passports and can leave if it becomes necessary.

I have heard that State Schooling in OZ is really good so your children are lucky to get such excellent education.

Anyways, I will end this particular conversation now.


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## Halo

Johanna said:


> I do not need to google a saying.
> 
> You are being rude.
> 
> 
> We are not talking about the rest of Africa, the topic is about South Africa.


Sadly, I'm not being rude......


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## Halo

Saartjie said:


> No I wouldn't say I am an Essex Girl I am just a Swede who happened to end up in Essex. I loved Chelmsford, we moved there from east London and it was such an improvement.
> 
> Fine fine, I back down, you have found a school that seems to be reasonably priced.:clap2:
> 
> As to the real cost of life. I am not able to see into the future so cannot comment on this. For now life is good, I am happy, my husband is happy and my child is happy and that is good enough for me right now. Still, I miss my parents and my brother terribly (although my dad is here at the moment so can't complain) back in Sweden and although I am happy here I can sometimes feel that my heart is still partly in the land of my birth so who knows where we will end up. I am also totally aware that should the #@$% hit the fan, we all have Swedish passports and can leave if it becomes necessary.
> 
> I have heard that State Schooling in OZ is really good so your children are lucky to get such excellent education.
> 
> Anyways, I will end this particular conversation now.


Worked in Sweden for a while.... Awesome place. Just keep safe and you have that back door...... If only you investigated a little more... Good Luck.


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## WhenweB

Halo said:


> Sadly, I'm not being rude......


Just to mention though on this thread where the conversation seems to have gone to a topic about apartheid etc...... discrimination is everywhere ... SA 20 years ago wasn't just discriminating against non-whites. I am white but when I went to a careers evening to be an air hostess they told me I didn't fit the criteria of height, weight, prettiness etc. When I went to find out about hotel managment they told me I didn't have the right attitude as I would have to start off peeling potatoes and work my way up (which I actually didn't have a problem with but they assumed because I had gone to a good school that it would be beneath me to do that) When I went for an interview for journalism they gave me a general knowledge test which as a girls high school boarder with no access to newspapers and news (which were censored anyway) I got about 2 answers right. I went into a typing pool in an insurance broker and did work my way up but in insurance broking rather than admin - when I wanted to be a secretary they told me I didn't have the legs for it..... So it wasn't just skin colour which they judged you on appartently its just that one had a title!


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## Halo

e.g. Hell, who wants an ugly receptionist ??? :tongue1:


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## Saartjie

Halo said:


> Worked in Sweden for a while.... Awesome place. Just keep safe and you have that back door...... If only you investigated a little more... Good Luck.


Yes Sweden is a lovely place but also quite boring. At least SA keeps you on your toes.


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## Halo

Saartjie said:


> Yes Sweden is a lovely place but also quite boring. At least SA keeps you on your toes.


And beer cost me the EARTH.................. And the Sun up till 11:30pm.... Oi Vey


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## Saartjie

Halo said:


> And beer cost me the EARTH.................. And the Sun up till 11:30pm.... Oi Vey


There is nothing that compares to a summer evening in Sweden. I love that it stays light until almost midnight. Alcohol is just ridiculously expensive. Last time I was there (last year) a beer set me back about 60 Rands  when we were out.


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## WhenweB

Halo said:


> e.g. Hell, who wants an ugly receptionist ??? :tongue1:


Indeed but I have worked for many an ugly beer bellied old fart and nobody ever told them they were to fat or ugly to do the job......:eyebrows:

No the point was that if they are going to give non-white people preference in a job because of past discriminations why don't they also say that all the non-beautiful over the hill geezers can get preference too. Anyway as I need to get my tongue out of my cheek in order to drink my tea :focus:


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## Halo

WhenweB said:


> Indeed but I have worked for many an ugly beer bellied old fart and nobody ever told them they were to fat or ugly to do the job......:eyebrows::


Thats because they paid your salary.... :confused2:


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## concord

Johanna said:


> Please, give the people of this country a chance. Everyone wants to be happy, healthy, etc.
> 
> Job reservation was a criminal thing, why do we not have black plumbers, electricians, etc.... whites only jobs in the past.


Johanna, here is a situation. There's a person who's gonna have a serious surgery. There're 2 doctors - one had 100 surgeries like that before, another one - 500 surgeries. Which one should that poor guy pick? I think it's obvious. The first surgean is more competent and experienced than the 2nd one.

My point is when you ask to give a chance to the people of SA you think globally and generally. But there're some specific situations when it might effect the life (health) of you or your family member. So you give a chance to a black boy with the lower marks and you get an average doctor. But at the same time a white boy with the best marks might leave a country and become an excellent doctor somewhere in the UK because his application was rejected in SA. So instead of hundreds of really good doctors we'll end up with hundreds of mediocre ones just because they're black and were giving a chance.

I mean we all want to be tolerant but there're some areas when competence must be dominant, not the skin color.

P.S. Just be honest with yourself. If you go to a doctor and your health=life is at stake will you give a chance to a young black doctor who had low marks? Or you'll go to a guy who's more competent?


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## Johanna

concord said:


> Johanna, here is a situation. There's a person who's gonna have a serious surgery. There're 2 doctors - one had 100 surgeries like that before, another one - 500 surgeries. Which one should that poor guy pick? I think it's obvious. The first surgean is more competent and experienced than the 2nd one.
> 
> My point is when you ask to give a chance to the people of SA you think globally and generally. But there're some specific situations when it might effect the life (health) of you or your family member. So you give a chance to a black boy with the lower marks and you get an average doctor. But at the same time a white boy with the best marks might leave a country and become an excellent doctor somewhere in the UK because his application was rejected in SA. So instead of hundreds of really good doctors we'll end up with hundreds of mediocre ones just because they're black and were giving a chance.
> 
> I mean we all want to be tolerant but there're some areas when competence must be dominant, not the skin color.
> 
> P.S. Just be honest with yourself. If you go to a doctor and your health=life is at stake will you give a chance to a young black doctor who had low marks? Or you'll go to a guy who's more competent?
> What if one


concord, we should all be tolerant, but we are not.
That is why the education ( and many other systems) system in this country has deteriorated. The point I was trying to make is that people were not allowed to qualify and/or even do all the jobs that now need experts.

I am honest with myself.

Whilst I was living and working in the UK ( up to February 2010), I also noticed a decline in services ( most sectors), especially education.



It would be very dumb to visit a doctor that is incompetent, that is why I have a decent medical aid.


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## Halo

Johanna said:


> It would be very dumb to visit a doctor that is incompetent, that is why I have a decent medical aid.


Sadly in an emergency you may not have the choice.....

As for education.... iafrica.com | news | sa news | 'Maths literacy... what's that?' Maths seems to be improving.


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## Stevan

> No the point was that if they are going to give non-white people preference in a job because of past discriminations why don't they also say that all the non-beautiful over the hill geezers can get preference too.


see daxk you could be classed as preveously disadvantaged please come back.


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## Daxk

Stevan said:


> see daxk you could be classed as preveously disadvantaged please come back.


I changed my name to Dax Zuma but it did not help:eyebrows:


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