# Veracruz (city) for living?



## BazB44

What do you think of Veracruz for living? Im looking for a laid back yet entertaining place, mild climate, safe, raise a family.


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## GARYJ65

BazB44 said:


> What do you think of Veracruz for living? Im looking for a laid back yet entertaining place, mild climate, safe, raise a family.


Veracruz is a beautiful city, I would like to define mild climate here. To me, Veracruz is way too hot


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## joaquinx

GARYJ65 said:


> Veracruz is a beautiful city, I would like to define mild climate here. To me, Veracruz is way too hot


I agree. The heat in May and for the next few months is like opening an oven and getting hit by a wave of heat. You would have to live very near the Gulf in a place where the breeze blows to keep cool or pay the CFE bill for AC. 

Xalapa or Córdoba would be a better choice for a milder climate. I can't speak for Córdoba for entertainment, but Xalapa has many, many entertainment and cultural venues.


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## citlali

Also when the northern wind blows in Vera Cruz it is not hat pleasant either..not my favorite climate wither, I agree Xalapa would have the milder climate. Not sure about the safe part either, I sure would not go there thinking it is a safe place either. There are lots of safer places in Mexico than Vera Cruz. 
I like Vera Cruz a lot but not for its climate or safety.


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## BazB44

would areas like Tampico, San Andres Tuxtla or Poza Rica be better?


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## citlali

better for what?


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## joaquinx

citlali said:


> better for what?


All the things mentioned earlier, perhaps. Not to mention the quality of tortillas al mano.


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## ClinSpan

It is extremely humid, in my opinion. Depends what you like, though. I personally prefer the dry heat of Hermosillo, Sonora. To some people that's crazy. But again - everyone has their preference.

Visit the city during the summer and winter months, and see if you like it.


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## citlali

Tamoico or poza RIca I would not go to , the Tuxtlas are nice to visit but too small for me, aain just my take, you maybe different.


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## Isla Verde

citlali said:


> Tamoico or poza RIca I would not go to , ...


Isn't Tampico kind of not safe these days! I don't know anything about Poza Rica.


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## BazB44

when you say Gulf do you mean places like Campeche?


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## joaquinx

BazB44 said:


> when you say Gulf do you mean places like Campeche?


to whom are you referring when you say Gulf?


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## Isla Verde

joaquinx said:


> to whom are you referring when you say Gulf?


It's always useful to hit the "Reply With Quote" button when responding to a particular post.


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## Hound Dog

BazB44 said:


> What do you think of Veracruz for living? Im looking for a laid back yet entertaining place, mild climate, safe, raise a family.


Veracruz City is certainly an entertaining place and Veracruzano music and cuisine are unique and delightful when well presented. The city's architecture is unique among Mexican ciities as well although perhaps not necessarily appealing to all who experience it. We contemplated moving there back in 2006 when we were seeking an alternative to the Lake Chapala area where we lived full time in those days. We also considered Xalapa , the Tuxtlas and the Orizaba-Córdoba urban complex in Veracruz State but finally chose The Chiapas Highlands instead but not because some of the places we considered in Veracruz State were not also appealing to us. 

Had we settled on The Veracruz City area we probably would have chosen to reside near the city's central plaza, suburban Boca Del Rio or maybe a beachfront area in the stretch from Cardel to the north to Alvarado on the south. Xalapa, the state capital, is an attractive city with many fine restaurants and cultural attractions but it is a noisy and frenetic urban environment reputed to suffer seasonally from incessant fog and drizzle and these were elements we were not seeking in a place in which to reside. We found the Orizaba-Córdoba and Tuxtlas areas lacking from our points of view but you might find them attractive places to consider.

In the final analysis, we found Veracruz City to be a bit too hot and humid for us but we are also people who moved from hot and humid coastal Alabama to cool and foggy San Francisco back in the 70s and chose cool and rainy San Cristobal de Las Casas at 7,000 feet in the Chiapas Highlands as that escape valve from Lake Chapala after entertaining the thought of both Veracruz and Merida as possible fun cities in which to reside except for that damnable hot sticky climate characteristic of both towns most or the year. Thanks but we had our fill of that in summertime Mobile - a damn fine town otherwise.

We have lived in Mexico for 15 years now both at Lake Chapala and (for eight years) San Cristobal as retirees without school age children and have never regretted having retired here after initially considering both the U.S. and France as well. Mexico has proven to be a great place to live for us despite widespread corruption and violence that are a bit disconcerting. I would, however, think long and hard before deciding to raise a family here with my kids attending often inadequate public schools and roaming potentially hazardous streets. Honestly, I wouldn't do that but to eacb his/her own. 

Good luck to you whatever your decisión.


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## Hound Dog

BazB44 said:


> when you say Gulf do you mean places like Campeche?


Just for the récord, the Gulf of México presents more that one environment on coasts from Southwestern Florida to Isla Holbox on the Yucatán Península. The Gulf has stretches of the most beautiful, wide sugar-white sand beaches fronting crystal clear aguamarina waters on earth as one would find between Panamá City, Florida and Gulf Shores, Alabama and thousands of kilómetros of dreary, brown sand beaches fronting murky, turgid waters as one would find west of New Orleans, La. all the way to about Champoton, Campeche. Then from Champoton heading up the Yucatán Península to road's end at Dzilam de Bravo, Yucatán, the beaches are attractive white strands fronting aguamarine waters although the beaches are mostly narrow strands fronting waters with far less clarity than the Florida/Alabama beaches described above but still providing pleasant views of the aguamarine Gulf fronted primarily by modest fishing villages and long stretches of deserted beaches.

Of I were to choose to reside on the Mexican Gulf Coast, I would definitely choose a small town somewhere between and including Celestun and Dzilam de Bravo, Yucatán. The Gulf Coast beaches and waters anywhere in Veracruz State are quite unattractive in comparison.


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## Howler

*Veracruz (North from the port to Tampico)*

Having lived in several of the places mentioned, I can add a little more to the discussion.

Veracruz: I love the Port of Veracruz because it seems to be the place where all Mexicans go for weekends & vacation... especially from Mexico City & DF. It has grown & developed very rapidly over the past 30 years, yet retains its colonial & historic charm in the city center. If history is your thing, this is where modern history began for the rest of Mexico. However, being a port town, it has a lot of hot & humid days in the "good" months; has an extreme rainy season (June thru October); and the "nortes" are the cold Northern winds that blow during the winters... no fun! But for fresh seafood, overall sunny days and wonderful people - it's a great, quite noisy & frenetic place to live. Just don't expect sugar-white beaches & crystal blue water... you'll find that further south in the Yucatan Peninsula.

Xalapa: is the state capital and a political, social & cultural (fine arts) center. Located up in the hills, the weather is radically different than down in the port with a cooler but lush climate. Here you have a couple of universities, an excellent museum & a resident symphony orchestra beset in hilly terrain with lovely parks & a lot of narrowly winding cobblestoned streets. It's a great place to live if you like fine arts & academics to go with the historical setting; just be aware of how chilly & "weepy" the weather can be compared to down in the port.

Orizaba & Cordoba: are two towns / cities about 20 minutes apart & set about the same distances at higher elevations from Veracruz and Xalapa in kind of a triangle. We've spent more time lately in Orizaba & find it a delightful combination of positive characteristics we love about Veracruz, in general. Although located at a higher elevation in the mountains, it is laid out across a flat valley floor & benefits from a cooler yet sunny climate; although it does have the same rainy season as down in the port - and it rains as if on schedule! Orizaba's infrastructure & layout has been greatly improved & beautified over the past 10 to 15 years making it a beautiful place to consider living in with all the conveniences of a much larger city, but with a small town feel. It has also been cited as one of the safest cities in Mexico for living & doing business, but has been dealing with an uptick in cartel violence over the past couple of years where the criminal element is wanting to move in. However, the residents are very proud of their town & determined to keep the crime out of the area. Cordoba is very similar to Orizaba in many ways, but does have it own character, culture & history. Although I have visited & shopped there, I really can't say much more about it. Another place close by, on the old road on the back of the mountain between Orizaba & Cordoba is Fortin de las Flores, set among the ravines & in a more biodiverse, somewhat near-jungle setting. Although located about 10 - 15 minutes from Orizaba, its higher elevation lends it an even cooler climate favorable for locally grown & produced coffee. From all appearances, it is a lot quieter place to live thanks to its relative isolation from Orizaba & Cordoba.

Costa Esmeralda: Is not a town or city, more a grouping of formerly sleepy fishing villages on the coast & north of the port by about 2 hours. My wife was raised here as a child & we pass through it every year or so to visit her family in Martinez de la Torre. Over the years I've watched the area grow & develop as more homes and smaller family-run "resorts" were built along formerly deserted beaches. There's still room to stake your claim there if a slower lifestyle is your thing, with fresh seafood brought in daily by small-time fishermen, among the typical beach-themed curio shops full of tourists making s quick stop for a meal & souvenirs. Just be mindful of the heat, rainy months & hurricane seasons I already mentioned.

Gutierrez Zamora & Tecolutla: Crossing the bridge heading & heading inland north to Papantla, you'll see Tecolutla out on the coast, located on a lick of land where the Tecolutla Rivers empties into the Gulf. Gutierrez Zamorra is a small, quiet town that benefited in the past from the area vanilla production and local fishing. It has a beautiful malecon along the river, with a couple of family restaurants ready to serve you where you choose to sit or rest from walking. Following the road through town (after separating from the highway) you'll end up in Tecolutla, about 10 minutes thru the mangrove wetlands & estuary out on the actual coast. Fishing & tourism is the mainstay of the economy, although I understand that Sophia Loren once stayed there while filming a movie. I like the beaches better here than in Veracruz (the port), and it's pretty easy to get around the area... it's not crowded at all. Weather-wise, strong cold fronts from the north along Mexico’s Atlantic coast between December and February can cause sudden drops in temperature and winds; then you have the summer hurricane season & storms which can also take their toll on the locals. In wondering why it hasn't developed more, I was told that it's the fickle weather that keeps Tecolutla and many other Gulf coast communities from becoming major resort areas like Cancun. Oh well, but it's still a beautiful place to check out... and maybe live.

Papantla: A small, very historically significant stop between Veracruz & Poza Rica. It has a beauty & history all it's own as the capital of the ancient Totonac people, and with the ruins of El Tajin nearby. Papantla was once one of the major vanilla producing centers of the world and you can still find & buy pure vanilla very cheaply. The local indians (Totonacs) design & braid animal figurines with the vanilla beans, which they'll also sell in the large zocalo mercado. This is also the home of the world-famous Totonac Voladores (Totonac Indian "Flyers"). However, it is located in a "bowl" where the sun's heat is concentrated making it hot, dusty & somewhat unpleasant for living there. Still, to each their own!

Poza Rica: Was a major petroleum refining & production center when I lived there in the 70s. As such, it was dirty, hot & dry with poor municipal planning. Because of this, it had a very bad gang & crime problem that added to the unpleasantness of living there. Over the years, it has modernized & cleaned up some, but still suffers from an oven-like heat most of the year, although it is a major center for employment related to the petroleum industry.

Tuxpan: Another hour or so north of Poza Rica and on the coast you'll find Tuxpan with it's beautiful waterside walkway (malecon) hosting many shops & cafés. Aside from the beautiful waterside part of its downtown area, Tuxpan is a difficult & bewildering place to negotiate by car or on foot. It seems to have grown too fast & suffers from traffic snarls, bad streets & poor public works. This is where most of Mexico's gulf-bound oil rigs are built & sent out; with a shipbuilding & repair industrial center & a marina for many fishing boats. Fidel Castro set out from here to launch his revolution in Cuba back in the 50s. Although it has a very hot & sunny climate, just north & south of Tuxpan are miles & miles of uninterrupted & isolated beaches for dedicated beachbums & people wanting to get away from it all.

Tampico: At the very northern tip of the state of Veracruz & across the river - but still on the coast, is Tampico. I've been through Tampico many times to visit with my brother-in-law & family that he raised there. It's the "political" center for PEMEX and a major area of their petroleum refineries & production. I saw it to be like Poza Rica, but bigger although better located along the coast with the beach & ocean breezes. It does have it's positives & is a well-developed population center, but always with a caveat of crime & violence for the uninformed or careless. Cartel violence became so bad & such a threat that my brother-in-law suddenly fled with his family a couple of years ago to Queretaro. There are nice places & developments to live there with all the modern conveniences you'd need, but I never considered living there, myself... especially after my wife's brother left.

That's my experience & input for Veracruz along the coast, from the port and to the north. It's a very long state with very distinct & different regions and many indigenous cultures to go with its history. You can find almost anything you want from a beach-oriented metropolitan experience, to something more isolated & temperate in the hills & mountains inland from the coast. This is where it started for the Spaniards in the new world... so it's not a bad choice to explore for yourself before deciding where you want to settle down. Good luck!!


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## Isla Verde

I think that Howler and Hound Dog should get together and write their own guide to living in Mexico! I offer to do the editing.


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## GARYJ65

Being the place where Spaniards first arrived does make it a better place to live in That was the start of a sad story
By the way, its not where it started for the new world either


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> Being the place where Spaniards first arrived does make it a better place to live in That was the start of a sad story
> By the way, its not where it started for the new world either


That "sad story" happened almost 500 years ago, Gary. Isn't it time to get over historical grievances and get on with the task of making Mexico the great country it could be?


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> That "sad story" happened almost 500 years ago, Gary. Isn't it time to get over historical grievances and get on with the task of making Mexico the great country it could be?


I don't agree with that, although I respect your opinion
It happened 500 years or so, but it was terrible
About 70 years ago the holocaust happened, less people got killed, yet, we still get to remember about it, same case buy bigger

That does not mean we are not working for Mexico


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> I don't agree with that, although I respect your opinion
> It happened 500 years or so, but it was terrible
> About 70 years ago the holocaust happened, less people got killed, yet, we still get to remember about it, same case buy bigger
> 
> That does not mean we are not working for Mexico


Why bring up the Holocaust, Gary? I thought we were talking about Mexico.


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## citlali

Are you guys talking about La Antigua?


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> Why bring up the Holocaust, Gary? I thought we were talking about Mexico.


 Mexico, Spain Just wanted to make a reference with a similar case Bottomline: We shouldn't forget history
Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> Mexico, Spain Just wanted to make a reference with a similar case Bottomline: We shouldn't forget history
> Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it


That's right. And the Spaniards did terrible things in Nueva España for 300 years. And now in Mexico, which segment of society is the most neglected and bears the brunt of discrimination and downright racism? The indigenous inhabitants of the country. It seems as though those in power in Mexico are just repeating many of the things the conquistadores (and their descendants) did here during the Colonial era.


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> That's right. And the Spaniards did terrible things in Nueva España for 300 years. And now in Mexico, which segment of society is the most neglected and bears the brunt of discrimination and downright racism? The indigenous inhabitants of the country. It seems as though those in power in Mexico are just repeating many of the things the conquistadores (and their descendants) did here during the Colonial era.


I would never disagree with that, but now I'm lost with the subject


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## Howler

GARYJ65 said:


> Being the place where Spaniards first arrived does make it a better place to live in That was the start of a sad story
> By the way, its not where it started for the new world either


I wasn't advocating it as a place to live just because the Spaniards arrived there, just a good place to start a serious exploration of Mexico. Regardless of our preferences for other places to live, there are a good number of Expats who have chosen different parts of the area I described for their own personal paradise.

Sure the conquest was a terribly sad story that resulted in the destruction & loss of several great civilizations before the Spaniards finished their conversion & colonization efforts. Still, Hernan Cortez could not have accomplished this by himself with only 400 men - not without the initial help of the Totonacs who allied themselves with him in Zempoala, nor without the Tlaxcalans in the final assaults on the Aztec capital. These facts are not lost on today's inhabitants although it is a part of their origin which they can't necessarily change or do away with. Unlike the mindset of the 15th Century, the Holocaust was rooted in the hate & efforts to exterminate a race, rather than to subjugate & exploit them.

No, the start of the New World was not in Veracruz; but it was the beginning of it for the Spanish here on the continent upon landing & establishing themselves at Veracruz and through Zempoala. They had already discovered the Florida coast a couple of years earlier, but had not started exploration or colonization efforts there before doing so in Mexico. Before the conquest the Spanish had only established outposts & bases on the islands of the Dominican Republic, Cuba & Puerto Rico.


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## GARYJ65

Howler said:


> I wasn't advocating it as a place to live just because the Spaniards arrived there, just a good place to start a serious exploration of Mexico. Regardless of our preferences for other places to live, there are a good number of Expats who have chosen different parts of the area I described for their own personal paradise. Sure the conquest was a terribly sad story that resulted in the destruction & loss of several great civilizations before the Spaniards finished their conversion & colonization efforts. Still, Hernan Cortez could not have accomplished this by himself with only 400 men - not without the initial help of the Totonacs who allied themselves with him in Zempoala, nor without the Tlaxcalans in the final assaults on the Aztec capital. These facts are not lost on today's inhabitants although it is a part of their origin which they can't necessarily change or do away with. Unlike the mindset of the 15th Century, the Holocaust was rooted in the hate & efforts to exterminate a race, rather than to subjugate & exploit them. No, the start of the New World was not in Veracruz; but it was the beginning of it for the Spanish here on the continent upon landing & establishing themselves at Veracruz and through Zempoala. They had already discovered the Florida coast a couple of years earlier, but had not started exploration or colonization efforts there before doing so in Mexico. Before the conquest the Spanish had only established outposts & bases on the islands of the Dominican Republic, Cuba & Puerto Rico.


They should have killed them all when they saw them coming
Spaniards killed 90% of the indigenous population, them and disease 
Most probably I wouldn't be here now, but I would be some other place


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## dichosalocura

I admit that the Spaniards weren't exactly kind to the local inhabitants of Mexico, they committed horrendous crimes against them while subjugating, exploiting, and totally demoralizing them. And not to mention the destruction and annihilation of their civilizations, religions, and ways of life. But where ever I go in Mexico I see remnants of their glorious past all over the country, I see it in their faces, in their crafts, and in their cuisine. Much of Mesoamerican culture continues to live on in Mexico. All I want to say is that through all the evils Spain did to this land, it did not completely wipe out and exterminate the original inhabitants and their culture, much to the same degree that we see in the English speaking colonies. Look at most of the USA, Australia, and NZ, after the colonists arrived, not much of anything survived in these countries pertaining to the original inhabitants.


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## TundraGreen

dichosalocura said:


> I admit that the Spaniards weren't exactly kind to the local inhabitants of Mexico, they committed horrendous crimes against them while subjugating, exploiting, and totally demoralizing them. And not to mention the destruction and annihilation of their civilizations, religions, and ways of life. But where ever I go in Mexico I see remnants of their glorious past all over the country, I see it in their faces, in their crafts, and in their cuisine. Much of Mesoamerican culture continues to live on in Mexico. All I want to say is that through all the evils Spain did to this land, it did not completely wipe out and exterminate the original inhabitants and their culture, much to the same degree that we see in the English speaking colonies. Look at most of the USA, Australia, and NZ, after the colonists arrived, not much of anything survived in these countries pertaining to the original inhabitants.


I think that difference, the survival of some of the pre-Columbian culture and peoples in Mexico, versus the complete loss of the indigenous culture and most of the people in the US is a consequence of the higher level of civilization of the native Americans in Mexico. The Mexican indigenous were more "civilized" and could adapt to living with the Spaniards, mostly as slave labor, but surviving anyway. The indigenous north of the current border, were still hunter gatherers mostly and had more trouble adapting to a European style of life. The differences were too great and most of them died, either of disease or loss of livelihood, or were killed in the conflict. Very few of the northern indigenous groups survived and less of their culture, unlike in Mexico and Central America.


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## GARYJ65

I still think they should have killed them on the spot. Much safer
They didn't , those are the consequences
Same rule would apply wherever colonialism or conquest are about to begin


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## citlali

It was not any better in South America and all colonists did terrible things accross the world, The Brits, French,the Portuguese Spaniards, the Dutch and so on..did terrible things...history is nasty and bloody and no matter what history repeats itself..humans as a hole are a pretty sad group.


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## Howler

citlali said:


> It was not any better in South America and all colonists did terrible things accross the world,...


I think for the worst example of what colonialism could do to an indigenous people, just look at Argentina. There are hardly any "natives" or "mezclados" at all counted in their population because they were practically annihilated after the Spanish arrived. However, one of the best examples of the inclusion & merging of cultures can be found just to the northwest in Paraguay where more people speak Guaraní (90%) than Spanish (75%); and the daily language is a thorough mix of the two.


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## Hound Dog

Since some of us have embarked upon the sanctimony train here and taken us a bit off the original subject of this thread, perhaps now is the time to reminisce about the infamous "Trail of Tears" here - another war crime iniitiiated by Europeans in North America in past centuries. The Spanish could have rounded up the coastal indigenous as the ancestors of the British conquerors did in the Southeastern United States (Creek, Cherokee, Choctaw and Seninole) and moved them on a "death march" to the Oklahoma territory so European whites and their African slaves could steal and exploit their ancestral lands without interference from "uppity Indians" many of whom died of foreign borne diseases because of their interaction with strangers from afar.

Too bad the first nations peoples in the United States didn't win the wars with the European invaders so they could have held hearings with the equivalent of an "Allied Military Commission" to declare the Europeans guilty of war crimes as the allies declared of Germany after WW. II.

Getting back to the appropriate subject, I really enjoyed Howler's post detailing some facts regarding Northern Veracruz State, an area about which I have only passing knowledge. My interest has always been in that state in the west and south of Veracruz City and environs. An enlightening thread before we seized upon the subject of European colonial injustices.


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## Howler

Hound Dog said:


> ...I really enjoyed Howler's post detailing some facts regarding Northern Veracruz State, an area about which I have only passing knowledge. My interest has always been in that state in the west and south of Veracruz City and environs...


Thanks, Hound Dog! I hope it helped the OP and others interested in that area, which has been the mainstay of my experiences in Mexico for close to 40 years. I look forward to enjoying the benefit of your knowledge & experiences when I start to branch out & explore further afield in Chiapas, and especially in Guadalajara!


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## GARYJ65

citlali said:


> It was not any better in South America and all colonists did terrible things accross the world, The Brits, French,the Portuguese Spaniards, the Dutch and so on..did terrible things...history is nasty and bloody and no matter what history repeats itself..humans as a hole are a pretty sad group.


I rest my case

Shoot them when you see them


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> I rest my case
> 
> Shoot them when you see them


Gary, we should keep in mind that one reason the Spaniards were able to conquer the Aztec empire is the help they received from other native polities, most prominently the Tlaxcalans, who were sick and tired of the treatment they received from the powers-that-be in Tenochtitlán. History is always more complicated (and more interesting) than the black-and-white stories we learn in school.


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## citlali

The INdigenous in Vera Cruz also helped the Spaniards for the same reason the Tlaxcalan did. the Aztecs were not the best of people with the people they had conquered either.humans are humans..


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## Isla Verde

citlali said:


> The INdigenous in Vera Cruz also helped the Spaniards for the same reason the Tlaxcalan did. the Aztecs were not the best of people with the people they had conquered either.humans are humans..


Ah, yes, the famous "cacique gordo", the leader of the Totonacas of Cempoala, was the first native ally of Cortés.


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## Waller52

citlali said:


> Also when the northern wind blows in Vera Cruz it is not hat pleasant either..not my favorite climate wither, I agree Xalapa would have the milder climate.


Can anyone explain why Xalapa, an inland city, has a beach and water in this Google search?


http://bit.ly/1UVWOmf


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## citlali

A lot of North American indigenous were nomades and those are the first cultures to go as they clash with sedentary people.


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## Isla Verde

We should also keep in mind that the vast majority of the deaths among indigenous people in Mexico came from diseases brought over by the Spaniards, for which the locals had no natural immunity. It was not a conscious program of annihilation, as was more of the case in what is now the US.


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## Howler

Waller52 said:


> Can anyone explain why Xalapa, an inland city, has a beach and water in this Google search?
> 
> 
> http://bit.ly/1UVWOmf


Beats me! I've seen the lake in the park... but it didn't have a beach!!


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> We should also keep in mind that the vast majority of the deaths among indigenous people in Mexico came from diseases brought over by the Spaniards, for which the locals had no natural immunity. It was not a conscious program of annihilation, as was more of the case in what is now the US.


But when the Spaniards realized indigenous were dying from the diseases, they would catapult dead people bodies to make them sick!


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> But when the Spaniards realized indigenous were dying from the diseases, they would catapult dead people bodies to make them sick!


I rather doubt that, Gary. After all, once the Conquest had been successful, the Spaniards needed the natives to build their cities and work on their farms. I'd like a link to that information you just posted.


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## joaquinx

Howler said:


> Beats me! I've seen the lake in the park... but it didn't have a beach!!


Then you have missed one of the hidden treasures of Xalapa.


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## Howler

joaquinx said:


> Then you have missed one of the hidden treasures of Xalapa.


Really? I'll have to check it out this summer when I'm down there! Did it include the boats, too... or are you pulling my leg about the beach?


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## joaquinx

Howler said:


> Really? I'll have to check it out this summer when I'm down there! Did it include the boats, too... or are you pulling my leg about the beach?


It's a running joke here. However, in Cardel.


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## citlali

That picture looks like a Pacific coast beach not a Vera Cruz beach.


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## joaquinx

Google is having and has had some problems with their maps. At one point, Catamaco Lake had changed into a huge bay stretching from the highway all the way to the beach.


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## Waller52

citlali said:


> The INdigenous in Vera Cruz also helped the Spaniards for the same reason the Tlaxcalan did. the Aztecs were not the best of people with the people they had conquered either.humans are humans..


And the Mayans are the remnants of an extraterrestrial race that visited and left behind those who wished to remain. Human is a relevant term.


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## GARYJ65

Howler said:


> I think for the worst example of what colonialism could do to an indigenous people, just look at Argentina. There are hardly any "natives" or "mezclados" at all counted in their population because they were practically annihilated after the Spanish arrived. However, one of the best examples of the inclusion & merging of cultures can be found just to the northwest in Paraguay where more people speak Guaraní (90%) than Spanish (75%); and the daily language is a thorough mix of the two.


If we are not only talking about America, my guess would be Belgium, hands down
For America it would be the Spaniards, and "Americans" I wouldn't know which one was the worst


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> I rather doubt that, Gary. After all, once the Conquest had been successful, the Spaniards needed the natives to build their cities and work on their farms. I'd like a link to that information you just posted.


 solían enviar por delante de sus tropas a soldados o esclavos portando lanzas con lienzos impregnados con secreciones obtenidas de enfermos de viruela; además, cuando levantaban sus campamentos abandonaban las prendas de los enfermos de viruela o las ofrecían a los indígenas locales; 

Ciencias para el mundo contemporáneo: La guerra biológica en ámerica


No solo los españoles conquistaron sudamérica también los ingleses.En un memorando sin fecha Sir Jeffery Amherst, pregunta al coronel Bouquet, "¿Podría idearse el enviar la viruela a esas tribus de indios descontentos?". La contestación fechada en julio 13 fue: "Voy a tratar de inocularlos con algunas cobijas que caigan en su poder, teniendo cuidado de no contraer yo mismo la enfermedad". El 16 de julio Amherst respondía "Hará bien con tratar de inocular a los indios por medio de mantas, como también trate de utilizar cualquier otro método que pueda servir para extirpar esa aborrecible raza".


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## citlali

Belgium was ruthless but was a minor player in comparaison to the Brits or the French. The Portuguese were not nice guys either..neither were the Dutch..


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## Howler

joaquinx said:


> It's a running joke here. However, in Cardel.


I should have seen your location in Xalapa as a clue! Too funny!!

(...wait until I show my wife this new municipal "project" of theirs :fingerscrossed: )


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## GARYJ65

citlali said:


> Belgium was ruthless but was a minor player in comparaison to the Brits or the French. The Portuguese were not nice guys either..neither were the Dutch..


I was not prioritizing by number of victims, but by degree of "scoundrelness" ("desgraciadez")


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## citlali

GARYJ65 said:


> I was not prioritizing by number of victims, but by degree of "scoundrelness" ("desgraciadez")


They were all bad..


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## Hound Dog

GARYJ65 said:


> I was not prioritizing by number of victims, but by degree of "scoundrelness" ("desgraciadez")


When writing about the Belgians as colonial masters when compared to some other designated colonial powers. Cut to Africa. Perhaps a bit of reflection on the hell of the Belgian Congo would warrant a reassessment of the "scoundrelnessness"of the Belgians when exercising colonial domination over the Congolese.

As for Cardel, Veracruz as a delightful destination near the Gulf, I was writing of Gulfside beach communities near Cardel such as Chachalacas or La Antigua, not that I would recommend that area unequivocally since I prefer the Yucatan Gulf beaches to those in Veracruz State. When we were last visiting Veracruz State we were the only visitors at El Tajin the weekday we were there and the only guests at the beach hotel where we stayed in Chachalacas. We were in the area for just a couple of days during which time tortured deceased men , some headless or castrated, were being found all around Metropolitan Veracruz including the Boca Del Rio suburb I recommended with a number of bodies dumped on the freeway there during the commute which, shall we say, tied up commute traffic significantly. Simultaneously, we were driving south rapidly through Alvarado, The Tuxtlas and Lake Catemaco endeavoring to get across the Veracruz/Chiapas line and get back home to San Cristobal with dispatch.


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> solían enviar por delante de sus tropas a soldados o esclavos portando lanzas con lienzos impregnados con secreciones obtenidas de enfermos de viruela; además, cuando levantaban sus campamentos abandonaban las prendas de los enfermos de viruela o las ofrecían a los indígenas locales;
> 
> Ciencias para el mundo contemporáneo: La guerra biológica en ámerica


Interesting quote, Gary. However, it should be noted that this policy was carried out by Pizarro and his henchmen in Peru, not by Cortés in Mexico.


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> Interesting quote, Gary. However, it should be noted that this policy was carried out by Pizarro and his henchmen in Peru, not by Cortés in Mexico.


These guys already knew how to do it since the 1300's

They were not innocent at all


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> These guys already knew how to do it since the 1300's
> 
> They were not innocent at all


I didn't say they were. I was just pointing out that the quote you posted is about Peru, not Mexico. I'd be interested to see a similar piece of evidence about Cortes's actions in Nueva España.


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## citlali

May be you can find something pretty awful if you check Guzman´s deeds..he was famous for his cruelty towards indigenous.


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> I didn't say they were. I was just pointing out that the quote you posted is about Peru, not Mexico. I'd be interested to see a similar piece of evidence about Cortes's actions in Nueva España.


I will look for it, meanwhile, kill them on the spot


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## ojosazules11

GARYJ65 said:


> I will look for it, meanwhile, kill them on the spot


Gary, I agree with your viewpoint about the horrible impact the arrival and invasion by Europeans had on the indigenous peoples of the Americas. I've also read about the deliberate infecting of indigenous peoples through contaminated blankets and clothing. It was not only the Spaniards. Here's a link documenting this practice by Sir Jeffrey Amherst, an English lord who was Commander-in-Chief of the British troops in America in 1758-1763.
Amherst and Smallpox

But I hope your instruction to "kill them on the spot" is in reference to past history, not to us expats who are "invading" Mexico now!


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## GARYJ65

ojosazules11 said:


> Gary, I agree with your viewpoint about the horrible impact the arrival and invasion by Europeans had on the indigenous peoples of the Americas. I've also read about the deliberate infecting of indigenous peoples through contaminated blankets and clothing. It was not only the Spaniards. Here's a link documenting this practice by Sir Jeffrey Amherst, an English lord who was Commander-in-Chief of the British troops in America in 1758-1763. Amherst and Smallpox But I hope your instruction to "kill them on the spot" is in reference to past history, not to us expats who are "invading" Mexico now!


Of course not!
Otherwise, some people would also kill me on the spot when my turn comes!


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## TundraGreen

GARYJ65 said:


> I will look for it, meanwhile, kill them on the spot





GARYJ65 said:


> I still think they should have killed them on the spot. Much safer
> They didn't , those are the consequences
> Same rule would apply wherever colonialism or conquest are about to begin





GARYJ65 said:


> They should have killed them all when they saw them coming
> Spaniards killed 90% of the indigenous population, them and disease
> Most probably I wouldn't be here now, but I would be some other place


I find your numerous references to killing disturbing. If we were in the US where mass killings have become weekly events, I would consider telling the authorities that you should be looked at.


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## Howler

*Never Again?*



TundraGreen said:


> I find your numerous references to killing disturbing. If we were in the US where mass killings have become weekly events, I would consider telling the authorities that you should be looked at.


Lol!!! :rofl:

(In all fairness to Gary, it's obviously something he feels deeply about & takes seriously. It's just too bad that we are talking about times & events far removed from the present. We'd like to think it would never happen again, but all one has to do is to look at the news. The inhumane behavior of past colonizers has been replaced by that of dictators, despots, religious extremists, and intolerance in general for others' differences.)


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## GARYJ65

TundraGreen said:


> I find your numerous references to killing disturbing. If we were in the US where mass killings have become weekly events, I would consider telling the authorities that you should be looked at.


Good thing we are not in the US!


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos

GARYJ65 said:


> I still think they should have killed them on the spot. Much safer
> They didn't , those are the consequences
> Same rule would apply wherever colonialism or conquest are about to begin


Mother Earth should've killed the first arrogant Siberians who moved into Mexico. What right did these people who came from an Arctic climate, from another continent, have to the delights of pristine Mexico?

I've often asked indigenous Mexicans for their immigration papers of their ancestors into Mexico. Not a single one could produce a document!

All Siberian illegal immigrants into Mexico should've been killed immediately 10,000 years ago. On their way down from Siberia, they wiped out the mastadons, saber-tooth tigers, native American camels and many other species. They started agriculture that forever wiped out the native symmetry of pure nature. They grotesquely deformed native plants in way nature never intended and that never can be undone. They changed the climate and nature far, far worse than the Spaniards ever did.

They also brought continual warfare. For 10,000 years, there was never a moment of national peace until maybe 1948.

They also brought in human sacrifice, on a massive scale. One of the biggest crimes of the Spaniards was to halt this practice.

They also ate dogs! Regularly. The Spanish never ate men's best friends.

Nature -volcanoes, earthquakes -- should've killed off every single invader that are now called indigenous Mexicans.

It should've been allowed to remain in pristine nature, unpolluted by those nasty Siberians.

The place would be much better if all illegal Siberians and Spaniards were deported back to their homelands.


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## coondawg

I find this thread quite amusing. Keep it up, as my BP needs an assist. We are the Best Forum for getting off subject of all Mexico Forums I have encountered. But, someone will find a connection now.


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## GARYJ65

Meritorious-MasoMenos said:


> Mother Earth should've killed the first arrogant Siberians who moved into Mexico. What right did these people who came from an Arctic climate, from another continent, have to the delights of pristine Mexico? I've often asked indigenous Mexicans for their immigration papers of their ancestors into Mexico. Not a single one could produce a document! All Siberian illegal immigrants into Mexico should've been killed immediately 10,000 years ago. On their way down from Siberia, they wiped out the mastadons, saber-tooth tigers, native American camels and many other species. They started agriculture that forever wiped out the native symmetry of pure nature. They grotesquely deformed native plants in way nature never intended and that never can be undone. They changed the climate and nature far, far worse than the Spaniards ever did. They also brought continual warfare. For 10,000 years, there was never a moment of national peace until maybe 1948. They also brought in human sacrifice, on a massive scale. One of the biggest crimes of the Spaniards was to halt this practice. They also ate dogs! Regularly. The Spanish never ate men's best friends. Nature -volcanoes, earthquakes -- should've killed off every single invader that are now called indigenous Mexicans. It should've been allowed to remain in pristine nature, unpolluted by those nasty Siberians. The place would be much better if all illegal Siberians and Spaniards were deported back to their homelands.


Wow
That rant was wildly out of touch with reality


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> Wow
> That rant was wildly out of touch with reality


Not a rant, in my opinion, just an interesting (and humorous) take on pre-Hispanic history!


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## RVGRINGO

Unless Gary thinks that the Con Tiki voyage was the original source of Mexico‘s population, he will have to trace his roots back to Siberia via the Bering Strait landbridge.


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## Isla Verde

RVGRINGO said:


> Unless Gary thinks that the Con Tiki voyage was the original source of Mexico‘s population, he will have to trace his roots back to Siberia via the Bering Strait landbridge.


And unless all of Gary's ancestors were indigenous Mexicans, no doubt he has roots in Europe and possibly even in that evil country known as Spain!


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## RVGRINGO

Or.....maybe the result of the Irish soldiers who changed sides. “Gary“ sounds strange as a Spanish name, does‘t it?


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## coondawg

Gary, they are pulling your chain.


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## Isla Verde

coondawg said:


> Gary, they are pulling your chain.


Moi? Heaven forbid.


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## Howler

Gary... COME BACK!!! We didn't really mean it!! :grouphug:


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> And unless all of Gary's ancestors were indigenous Mexicans, no doubt he has roots in Europe and possibly even in that evil country known as Spain!


We've been in America for about 4 generations
Spain, Italy, France, some arabic Country, as far as I know
As I see it, if I were not Mexican I would be anything else, not a big problem

Conquerors and invaders were not immigrants

Even the Mexican anthem says something about those trying to invade
...a bit too late


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## GARYJ65

RVGRINGO said:


> Or.....maybe the result of the Irish soldiers who changed sides. “Gary“ sounds strange as a Spanish name, does‘t it?


That one was a very interesting story, about the Irish changing sides!
I have an anglo name, then a french last name and finally a spanish one!


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## GARYJ65

Howler said:


> Gary... COME BACK!!! We didn't really mean it!! :grouphug:


Still here, just didn't have time to read and write


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## RVGRINGO

GARYJ65 said:


> That one was a very interesting story, about the Irish changing sides!
> I have an anglo name, then a french last name and finally a spanish one!


It really is, and I am reminded of it every time I see the name, Obregon. In fact, I had lunch at a restaurant on Av. Obregon (O‘Brian in English) just last week in Nogales; coconut shrimp, and a visit to a dental clinic there; 1/3 the price of Tucson dentists and the bonus of affordable shrimp, etc. Well worth the short drive.


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## Howler

GARYJ65 said:


> That one was a very interesting story, about the Irish changing sides!...


Yes, it was an example of US policy rooted in racism & religious prejudice (against Catholicism) that brought upon itself the disaffectation & desertions of the Irish from their ranks, practically throwing them into the arms of Santa Anna & Mexico. Their frustrations were far from over, however, when they were not heeded or respected by Santa Anna for their US military-based training, experience or opinions... even when it would have been most useful & effective against Mexico's enemy - the United States (Army)! Who know's how the outcome of the war may have different, both against the US and later against France, if the Irish had prevailed with Santa Anna.

A fascinating, yet sad story in Mexico's history. It's also of interest how some of the descendents of these Irishmen ended up in other parts of Central America after leaving Mexico... I have met some of them as prominent military leaders in Honduras & Guatemala. As ******-looking as they could be with a VERY Irish surname, yet every bit the Hondurans or Guatemalans they served with... maybe more!


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## vantexan

And then there were the Mongols, Huns, Moors, and others that killed millions in Europe. They essentially got the New World conquest started as Europeans invented weaponry to defend themselves which in turn allowed them to dominate others. And everywhere the Spanish went in the New World they found eager allies seeing them as the tipping point against Aztecs, Incas, Mayans. The most successful Indian revolt in what is now the U.S.A. wasn't against those nasty English speakers but against the Spanish in Santa Fe by the Pueblo Indians. Who in turn eventually invited the Spanish back because they were being attacked by fierce Plains tribes. One such tribe, the Comanches, routinely raided Northern Mexico. And by the way, the disease issue was very prominent in what is now the U.S.A.. Many accounts were written of Indian villages found completely deserted or full of the dead. Early settlers believed God was clearing the way for them. And unlike the Plains the Indians of the Eastern U.S. lived in permanent villages. Point is that no matter wherever you go in the world groups that are numerically and/or technologically superior try to dominate other groups. It's a human condition, not just a white one. As for Mexico, the dominant group there, at least numerically, are the Mestizos. If the Spanish never arrived they wouldn't even exist. Nor would the Spanish language, the cathedrals, the colonial architecture, or quite a few other things that make Mexico appealing to many. Chances are many of you wouldn't even live there. We should learn from past sins but rather than lay guilt trips on the innocent I hope that as technology progresses the notion of enriching one group by dominating others lessens with each generation. Technology eliminated slavery in the U.S., for example. The world isn't perfect, never will be, and no one race is responsible for all it's ills.


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## GARYJ65

Technology eliminated slavery in the U.S ????

I think it goes deeper than that


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## vantexan

GARYJ65 said:


> Technology eliminated slavery in the U.S ????
> 
> I think it goes deeper than that


Slavery was no longer viable economically when machinery was invented that could plant and harvest crops, cotton in particular. There would always be abolitionists, but if we weren't more advanced technologically than in 1800 the powers that be would still demand forced labor. No slavery in the northern U.S. in 1850? That was where most of the factories were at, with a steady stream of poor immigrants to work in them. The Industrial Revolution in England freed the slaves there too. And slavery was a worldwide phenomenon that still goes on in very poor areas, as well as the sex slave trade. Always interesting when social change comes about because there's better profits in doing so.


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## citlali

yes Vantexan is right instutional slavery was eliminated for economical reasons not becuse of the goodness or high morale of a few people. It would have died of it own death, maybe a little later but it was no viable and would have disappeared.
I have some documents from husband´s family from those days and old slaves were not considered assets but liabilities in the will and financial statements, as the people would get ill and or old their value would move to the liaibility column..we actually have one of those statements.
The vast majority of slaves were owned by families who owned one or two people and were taking care of the old and sick. The large cotton or sugar cane plantations from Louisisana or Mississipi were awful but the majority of the slaves were not working in those places.


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## Andreas_Montoya

BazB44 said:


> What do you think of Veracruz for living? Im looking for a laid back yet entertaining place, mild climate, safe, raise a family.


I wouldn't really consider Veracruz any of the above.

What do you mean by entertaining? Like live music? 

I think I was the most attracted to Papantla.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pap...G_i8nLAhUK4yYKHeEsCU4QsAQILg&biw=1366&bih=599


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## citlali

I do not think you can compare Papantla to Vera Cruz. One is a larger city and the other is a small town near a tourist attraction. Nice place to visit though. 
I think you have to know what kind of life style you ike and then chose between larger cities ,small towns, villages etc..
I think that if you like living in Vera Cruz Papantla is on the dull side, once you have seen el Tajin or the voladores it is time to go and lookk for a little excitement somewhere else. Maybe unfair to Papantla, it is an attractive little town with nice local food but you have to like small towns to live there.


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## qvivar

*cordoba comment*

Cordoba is very nice and a little rural. Lots of sugar cane farming. The weather is beautiful and I agree on the weather in Veracruz - too much humidity, sort of like S Jersey, but hotter. Not a lot on the entertainment side in Cordoba, but I like it. Orizaba is about 20 min west of here and there is more to do there.


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## 1happykamper

woops.deleted. sorry


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## 1happykamper

joaquinx said:


> I agree. The heat in May and for the next few months is like opening an oven and getting hit by a wave of heat. You would have to live very near the Gulf in a place where the breeze blows to keep cool or pay the CFE bill for AC.
> 
> Xalapa or Córdoba would be a better choice for a milder climate. I can't speak for Córdoba for entertainment, but Xalapa has many, many entertainment and cultural venues.


Hello everyone this is directed to joaquinx ..you apparently (still) live in Xalapa, yes? Can you point me to any blogs on your city or one that specializes in Veracruz? Or a very loooong thread o this town here??

Hope I am not hijacking the thread???

Xalapa has crossed my radar more than a few times these past few months.. I tend to go with the flow so I will head there.. but I also want to know more info to supplement my trip there. According to Numbeo the crime is "very bad"but.. only 3 people have given any input -so hardly conclusive! 

Anyhow, bottom line: Towns/Cities Veracruz interest me!! Cheers


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## Andreas_Montoya

qvivar said:


> Cordoba is very nice and a little rural. Lots of sugar cane farming. The weather is beautiful and I agree on the weather in Veracruz - too much humidity, sort of like S Jersey, but hotter. Not a lot on the entertainment side in Cordoba, but I like it. Orizaba is about 20 min west of here and there is more to do there.


Agreed, Cordoba has everything a person might want or need and still retains that Mexican feel and charm. The downtown area is historic and has a beautiful square, I saw no crime while I was there other than petty theft which you will find anywhere. 

Pico de Orizaba makes for a fine view.


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## joaquinx

1happykamper said:


> Hello everyone this is directed to joaquinx ..you apparently (still) live in Xalapa, yes? Can you point me to any blogs on your city or one that specializes in Veracruz? Or a very loooong thread o this town here??


Not much information on Veracruz as its more agriculture and oil state. Very few expats live here. Of course, if you want to be away from expats, this is the place. There was a few places on the internet a few years ago, but most fell into disuse. Today it's on Facebook where there is a number of pages, sites, etc. on Veracruz, the state, and Xalapa. 

Ones that I know of are:
YoAmoVeracruz.com I Tours & Tickets Operador Turístico
https://www.facebook.com/places/Things-to-do-in-Veracruz-Mexico/107912095904228/
https://www.facebook.com/hoyenxalapa/
Veracruz Turismo

You can PM me with any questions.


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## chuck846

We have never been to Veracruz - but were thinking of taking a trip in our new car and Veracruz was on the list of possible destinations - only about a 5 hour drive. Looks like there are some beautiful national parks on the water.

Unfortunately the news (both TV and print) doesn't paint a pretty picture of Veracruz at the moment. Think we will head to Queretaro first.


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## joaquinx

chuck846 said:


> Unfortunately the news (both TV and print) doesn't paint a pretty picture of Veracruz at the moment. Think we will head to Queretaro first.


I really need to have details on this as I live here and need to be prepared.


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## Andreas_Montoya

We went to Xalapa to look for a place to buy and found the realtors there like realtors in most of Mexico, uninterested in selling homes. They told us that we would not find any homes there in the $100,000.00 range. I don't know why most realtors here are like that, but that has been my experience.


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## chuck846

joaquinx said:


> I really need to have details on this as I live here and need to be prepared.


I was watching ForoTV (channel 106 on my Sky dish) this morning - doctors kidnapping / protesting.

I believe La Jornada had an article.

From google NEWS search "veracruz mexico".


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## joaquinx

Andreas_Montoya said:


> We went to Xalapa to look for a place to buy and found the realtors there like realtors in most of Mexico, uninterested in selling homes. They told us that we would not find any homes there in the $100,000.00 range. I don't know why most realtors here are like that, but that has been my experience.


Wise decision to locate in Cordoba rather than Xalapa.


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## Andreas_Montoya

If you read about Veracruz beaches the news isn't good, the large hotels and resorts reportedly use the Gulf as a septic tank even though the pipes carry the sewage a good ways out from the beach. There is a corelation between users if those beaches and skin infections. Coasts Esmeralda is very nice and only about 1 1/2 hours from there.


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## Isla Verde

joaquinx said:


> Wise decision to locate in Cordoba rather than Xalapa.


So, joaquin, are you planning to relocate? What is it you don't like about Xalapa?


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## qvivar

joaquinx said:


> Wise decision to locate in Cordoba rather than Xalapa.


Although we ended up buying without a realtor, the one realtor that we did talk to took us to several nice homes for sale here in Cordoba. This was about 3 yrs ago. Actually more homes and further out than we cared to see/go. But it was informative.


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## joaquinx

Andreas_Montoya said:


> If you read about Veracruz beaches the news isn't good, the large hotels and resorts reportedly use the Gulf as a septic tank even though the pipes carry the sewage a good ways out from the beach. There is a corelation between users if those beaches and skin infections. Coasts Esmeralda is very nice and only about 1 1/2 hours from there.


You don't have to go that far for a good beach as Chachalacas is up the road near Cardel and Villa Rica is a ½ hour away. Both area with hotels and restaurants.


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## joaquinx

Isla Verde said:


> So, joaquin, are you planning to relocate? What is it you don't like about Xalapa?


Oh, not me. If I do it would be either CDMX or Oaxaca City. 

It is even difficult to move to another part of Xalapa or Coatepec. I got cheap rent for my two room apt at 1,400 pesos, great landlord and neighbors, both of my doctors are two blocks away, health clinic across the street, Chedraui two blocks away, a weekly mercado 1½ block away. If anything, it would be the chickens in the yard. One gallo, three gallinas, and seven pollitos.


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## Isla Verde

joaquinx said:


> Oh, not me. If I do it would be either CDMX or Oaxaca City.
> 
> It is even difficult to move to another part of Xalapa or Coatepec. I got cheap rent for my two room apt at 1,400 pesos, great landlord and neighbors, both of my doctors are two blocks away, health clinic across the street, Chedraui two blocks away, a weekly mercado 1½ block away. If anything, it would be the chickens in the yard. One gallo, three gallinas, and seven pollitos.


It sounds like you've got it made!


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