# Why not the truth?



## Martinw (Jan 2, 2009)

I just want to know, why any of the people that are " recommending" South Africa to foreigners and telling them how wonderfull and beautifull it is never bother to tell them the actual truth. 
Why is that they will only mention things like:
Yes there is crime in certain areas
If you stay in these suburbs you will be fine
If you live in gated communities you will be fine
Lock your doors, be aware etc.

Why do none of you try to tell them the truth about the violent crimes that occur everyday. The white women, young girls (and prob even males now) getting brutally raped, white peole getting tortured with hot irons, melted plastic etc, murderd without hardly anything of value, or anything at all being stolen. How such a hatred for white peole exists for black people to do this to white people. 
Stories of black police officers swearing, assaulting white peole( who were the victims even) how white farmers are being slaughtered, how filthy the cities are, street or anywhere being used as toilets. Why is it that none of you mention these things which are a fact and not something I have sucked out my thumb. Why dont you ever mention how many whites are leaving the country of their birth, to provide their families with a safe future, and not just to go do something different.
How many white people can probably - definitely not get a job anymore, because he is white, allthough all of us never even met Verwoerd, most of us have never hurt a black person( contrary to popular belief that we all prob assaulted blacks as fun probably), but yet we( or let say the South African White public - as I made a good choice to leave) have to suffer because the Blacks think it is their country, Says who.
I am just wondering why none of this gets mentioned to prospective immigrants instead of just the word, safety and crime. I think it is our responsibility to give peole all info so they can make their minds up on their own, after having ALL THE INFO.
I am not a sour Afrikaner( A white South African that speaks Afrikaans), but want peopl to know the truth, all of it. Not just the nice parts.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Martinw said:


> I just want to know, why any of the people that are " recommending" South Africa to foreigners and telling them how wonderfull and beautifull it is never bother to tell them the actual truth.
> Why is that they will only mention things like:
> Yes there is crime in certain areas
> If you stay in these suburbs you will be fine
> ...


Its a big world. It takes many types of people with many different views. Most of what I read about SA is negative, its interesting to see the odd positive comments, unless of course I can see its coming from HCR origins 

There MUST be positives ........ even people I know who warn people about SA acknowledge that


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## Martinw (Jan 2, 2009)

*Positives - None for me*

First of all let me say this. I am not beating around the bush anymore. I am going to say things the way they are, call them what they are, so people can get all the info they need to make up their own minds.

Now As I am an Caucasion Eropean male, off course most of what I say is going to be directed towards Caucasion Europeans, as I did not experience SA as an African. All of what I say is also facts, the truth if you choose to believe it or not. It is not going to happen to you everyday all day, but think rather that your chance have increased dramatically.( prob a million% or something, depending where you come from)

Positives about SA. Well if you are from African decent, probably a lot of positives, but in saying that, I would also assume or expect, most Africans from UK or US to be educated, skilled etc, so can not see many positives in living in a 3rd world country with violence, filth in streets etc.

Now positives for Europeans(caucasion) Well from my personal point of view – NOT A LOT Lets see:
Beautifull and awesome mountains - Check
Wildlife that everyone know and loves - Check
BUT, here is the problem allready. As most(not sure about that one though) peole in the world have to work to sustain ecomnomies, and their families(except criminals and “Skorriemorries”) chances are that you are going to live in and around the city. Now the mountains and wildife is not found there, and off course because you work you are not going to be in the mountains and bush all the time. So you are living and working in the city. This is where, the crime, violence and filth is. This is where you live in fear everyday of your life. 

Now there will be a lot of people that would want to say or believe that all this I am saying is utter rubbish, but sadly I do not think any “caucasion” can disagrre with me. The ones that do and say that it is not that bad – Well lets just say you should ask them for a picture of their house, because I can almost certainly guarentee you that they have jail like burglar bars on all doors and windows, a sign on the Big wall probably that readsADT( for you who don’t know, one of the many ARMED RESPONSE SECURITY COMPANIES that you have a contract with and prob by now costs R300-R400 – R250 in 2005), have big dogs, sleep with some form of weapon(if not a gun) next to their bed, older kids sleeping in their parents room so as to not be islolated when(not if) a black person breaks in tonight. Now ask them again how wonderfull it is there, and why they have all these “precautions” as they would call it. Now this kind of life sounds not very appealing to me, I know I lived like that, and it is not very enjoyable. Does any of this sound positive yet – Sure hope not.( this question not directed to you Stravinsky – to all people reading)

I do not think that most people in the rest of the world understand the HATRED “black People” have for prob any “caucasion person”. It is sickening to think that white women and girls, and prob men too, get raped and I have read somewhere that a lot of the blacks are stating “ we want to infect them with Aids so they can die slowly or something like that” How sick is that. But off course I forgot, we White people are spreading it amongst the blacks. We are telling them to rape “virgins” because it will cure Aids. We are telling them to rape babies because it cures them prob faster. I read an article where a black said that they sort of think that the girls that are 12-14 have allready been raped and prob have Aids, so they are moving on to the “younger” ones who are still”clean” as they call it and rape them instead, to cure their AIDS. Is that where anyone wants to take their wife or daughter, to either get raped, for fun and tortute, or because he thinks you are going to cure his AIDS. I am sorry to say this, but only a savage does things like that. For any of you who thinks that I am just a racists, think what you want, but when you deal with People(do PEOPLE behave like this) how can you think that there could be one positive thing about a country like that. I guess one positive I can tell you is that if you read this and are thinking twice about going or not going, take that as a huge positive in your life, because just maybe I have saved your life or from serious trauma or a disease you have to live with for the rest of your life.

So bottom line, is this. Any Caucasion that will try to tell you about the positives of SA. Well I am not sure what their state of mind is, but they are definitely not telling you all the facts. Cant really say what their reason is for telling you how wonderfull it is when they are living in fear themselves. And if they think they are not living in fear then my personal opinion would be that you are treading on “borrowed time” because it is literally just a question of time WHEN and not IF it happens to you. Think about this and alarm bells should start ringing, if only slight. Listen to them.

( Just by the way - I used to LOVE SOUTH AFRICA - Although it does not appear that way, but I can not love a country anymore where violence and fear rules. And I feel responsible to warn anyone about what the real truth and dangers are of the country, because I would feel really bad, if people get raped, torturted or murdered and just maybe, if I had written what I have, might have stopped them form going there and ultimately that happening to them. So I am not a sour person, but feel obligated to give people the info and experiences that I have.)


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## Klebe (Dec 29, 2008)

I've recently returned to SA after living in the UK for 3 years. 

Since my return, I've made a point of not listening to any local news broadcast, read newspapers etc, if events are of any importance or newsworthy, it will pop up on CNN. So when friends and fellow expats ask me how it feels to be back, all I can do is give my opinion on what I see. What I see is a reassuring amount of visible policing in the streets, horseback and roadblock amongst the patrols. In the months since my return to Joburg, I've not heard or witnessed any form of voilence, helicopters chasing criminals, gun shots or even police chases. What I have seen plenty of is car wrecks...be careful, good decent law abiding white South Africans want to kill you on the roads every day!!!

I believe many South Africans, white and black, still believe in their specialness. The notion that nobody suffers quite like the white guy or nobody suffered quite like the black guy, is pretty pervasive. 
Once you have a perspective shift, you realise doodoo happens. Your own particular brand is no more or less than anywhere else in the world, don't make it so for yourself.
Having befriended people who're returning to Mexico (most number of kidnappings etc etc) and realising they don't feel this terrible sense of injustice, made me re-evaluate my previous views. Having made the embarrassing slip of casually mentioning to a friendly fellow flier that you're a refugee from South Africa, only to find out the person you're talking to is a GENUINE refugee from Rwanda, changes your view on your own smallness of perspective. Hearing a Palestinian Christian saying how lucky you are to be able to return home, cause they never can, changes your mind.

Now before the vitriol flows, let me just make clear that I can't claim to have returned out of some great sense of duty or even patriotism, it was purely money and career opportunities. If you think of South Africa as a developing country, which it's always been despite some popular white ideas of grandeur, then it's just that...de-ve-lo-ping, nothing more and nothing less. Good stuff, bad stuff.


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## Martinw (Jan 2, 2009)

I agree. There are a lot worse places one can live, but people in SA dont live there they live in SA. And i'll just say this. You can go on about seeing no crime, violence and all the stuff you choose to see and believe, BUT if you you only think about, or the thought of violent crime enters your mind only ONCE in a day( and we all know it is a constant fear and a lot more than that) but only once, well that once is once too many, because here where we live the only violence I think about is what you guys must be thinking, seeing, experiencing and all the violent movies Hollywood makes. Why should one have to settle, for the same(or at least possibly heading for) the same conditions as Zim, Somalia, rwanda etc. Wasnt South Africa always better than that?


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Klebe: What happened in the UK? Why not go somewhere else?


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## RyanIndia (Jan 9, 2009)

I'm about to move from London to live in Joburg. I have spoken to a number of friends & acquaintances who have lived in South Africa as expats - Most of what they say is very balanced:
Postives: Beautiful Country, the benefits of a developed country & a developing country - infrastructure, good service, etc, many economic opportunities\
Negatives: Violent Crime, Violent Crime, violent Crime

I was also warned against talking to White South Africans who have "escaped" from South Africa. A very valid warning becoz the few I had spoken to have NOTHING good to say about SA. Maybe all of them have had strong negative experiences (which is why they probably left) 
Suprisngly Brazilians from Sao Paulo (with similiar crime rates) don't feel the same way


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## Klebe (Dec 29, 2008)

Halo said:


> Klebe: What happened in the UK? Why not go somewhere else?


Nothing happened, money and prospects lured us back. Will live in many places still, not looking to settle and wait for retirement yet


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## Klebe (Dec 29, 2008)

RyanIndia said:


> I was also warned against talking to White South Africans who have "escaped" from South Africa. A very valid warning becoz the few I had spoken to have NOTHING good to say about SA. Maybe all of them have had strong negative experiences (which is why they probably left)
> Suprisngly Brazilians from Sao Paulo (with similiar crime rates) don't feel the same way


It's the specialness thing. We were raised to be the "uitverkore volk"... the chosen people. Especially the Afrikaner segment of society were indoctrinated by church and state into believing they were favoured by God! Now they feel we've lost that special status and that's a bitter pil to swallow.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

So Klebes Take on the Disillusionment that a very large slice of South Africans feel is that its white Afrikaners who are no longer the Baas,no ongerthe chosen people?
Thats the reason for the Huge Brain Drain Post 94? Census 96 and 2001 showed 841,000 less white bums on seats in SA on Census day,
so do tell ,Klebe,
The little pop surveys that show white and blacks thinking seriously about leaving SA if they could, what do you ascribe that to?

Your description of everyday SA is very familiar to me, I enjoyed it for 54 years,defended it, attacked people for running it down, ignored a lot of what was going on iro crime as they obviously had'nt taken any care, and yes, I can identify with your not keeping abreast of what is happening in your local News Media other than the TV, iol or News24, its also a very South African trait, dont rock the boat, I'd rather not know.
When I went back for a long Holiday, it was great to climb of the Plane, smell those special smells of SA, its people, white teeth mostly laughing, it is a very beautiful Country and its people are very special,
but after two days I found I had slipped back into a watchful mode,
becoming aware of what is going on around me, of late at night. not stopping fully at the robots, being aware of the shape of the headlights behind me, and how long they were there for, 
sleeping at night and being woken by the dogs barking and then wondering why they both stopped suddenly,
of the Neighbours alarms going off and everyone ignores, the sounds of sirens and Gunshots at night,
The unlocking,relocking of Doors and security gates, the locking of car doors, car always facing outwards, the clunk click of the Trellidoors over open Patio Doors at night, Spanish bars over the window...
When the daughter was out shopping with the cousins, and it got later,darker before they got home and the cell phone was'nt being answered because the battery was flat.

Gilloolies farm Emmerentia, Delta park, The Wilds, Zoo lake, all have armed security Guards
patrolling and no-one goes there at nights or at Dusk,
and I looked at that,
and I looked at how I live in Galway, Ireland, 
and no, If I won the Euro Millions lotto of €55 million tonight, South africa is not where I would raise my daughter,

I dont need that stress that you choose to live under, and if you are'nt , then you are as sure as nuts going to wander unknowingly into someones target area at some point.

Oh, and if you happen to be living in the Cape, maybe you should start being aware of whats going on around you, thete's a nasty little trend developing that is'nt in Mitchells plain or the driveby in Bonteheuwel last night.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Klebe said:


> Nothing happened, money and prospects lured us back. Will live in many places still, not looking to settle and wait for retirement yet


Which one, the prospect of getting shot, hijacked or raped? Money???? That may be worth zilch in a few years that you can't get out and is worth nothing in the real world.
Think carefully as there are plenty of other countries where you can "make" it.

As I said to someone else, its all good UNLESS you have kids - then its folly.
Safe travels and give Zuma my regards.


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## Klebe (Dec 29, 2008)

Daxk said:


> So Klebes Take on the Disillusionment that a very large slice of South Africans feel is that its white Afrikaners who are no longer the Baas,no ongerthe chosen people?
> Thats the reason for the Huge Brain Drain Post 94? Census 96 and 2001 showed 841,000 less white bums on seats in SA on Census day,
> so do tell ,Klebe,
> The little pop surveys that show white and blacks thinking seriously about leaving SA if they could, what do you ascribe that to?


Well, I was referring to South Africans who seem to think what's happening here is personal, somehow directed at them personally as a people as opposed to just plain old simple greed and criminality. Sure there are the nutters amongst the criminals out for vengeance and hatred, but they're all over the world. To most criminals, it's just business. As to why people are leaving, it's not a terrific place to live, it's a *developing* country with all the problems that entails. It is not hell on earth either. To a Brit or other European, it's no better or worse than going to Kenya or Nigeria on assignment, it's an African country, what do you expect? Perhaps you feel so strongly about the evils of the place because you have a sense of something great that was lost? Without those feelings, which I don't have, it just is what it is.



Daxk said:


> Your description of everyday SA is very familiar to me, I enjoyed it for 54 years,defended it, attacked people for running it down, ignored a lot of what was going on iro crime as they obviously hadn't taken any care, and yes, I can identify with your not keeping abreast of what is happening in your local News Media other than the TV, iol or News24, its also a very South African trait, dont rock the boat, I'd rather not know.


So what exactly can I change by lending my ear to the mass hysteria of the media? Another suffocating dose of fear perhaps? 



Daxk said:


> and I looked at how I live in Galway, Ireland,
> and no, If I won the Euro Millions lotto of €55 million tonight, South africa is not where I would raise my daughter,


Good for you, I'm glad you're happy to have left, but why the continued strong feelings as opposed to indifference? 
The passing of an era in history is no terrible thing, everything must change. South Africa will become what it will, whether you feel sad about it or not. It's not personal, it's just life. 




Daxk said:


> I dont need that stress that you choose to live under, and if you are'nt , then you are as sure as nuts going to wander unknowingly into someones target area at some point.


Possibly, I couldn't change that either, but most likely it will be a motorist that gets you next time you visit!


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## Klebe (Dec 29, 2008)

Halo said:


> Which one, the prospect of getting shot, hijacked or raped? Money???? That may be worth zilch in a few years that you can't get out and is worth nothing in the real world.
> Think carefully as there are plenty of other countries where you can "make" it.


Tsk tsk, what bad mojo! 
But seriously, colleges are currently giving their right arms to work is SA due to all the cutbacks in the financial sectors in UK and US, SA is seen as the future with the rest of the emerging economies. Come one and all, make your name running a project for some big corporate, pioneers welcome. Posts in Kenya, Nigeria, India and China hotly contested for the ambitious.
Won't be here long though, I like living in the 1st world!



Halo said:


> As I said to someone else, its all good UNLESS you have kids - then its folly.
> Safe travels and give Zuma my regards.


Zuma who? Oh yes, you mean the populist leader who'll say and do just about anything to keep his job, unlike any other politician anywhere else in the world?


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Look, I work for a large multi-national and we have business in sh!t-pits too and people have to go there BUT

1. Its for a limited period
2. They are paid in Forex
3. They have guards/escorts
4. They know the risk

I think you only have 25% of the requirements.

If you believe that about Zuma, perhaps you are going to enjoy the ride to the tune of “Umshini-wam (Get Me My Machine Gun)” sung by the man himself.

Bring me my machine gun
do not hold me back
Bring me my machine gun
or I will blow my stack.
Bring me my machine gun
Oh. Thank you.
It’s about bloody time.
Now I have my machine gun
I am going to need some bullets.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Klebe asked "why the continued strong feelings as opposed to indifference? "
or a number of reasons that may be difficult for you to understand.

I was born and raised there,love the place with a passion,
Have a mother, Siblings,Neices and nephews who cannot leave, own substantial Business and property interests there,
am extremely angry that greed, Corruption, Incompetence,Indifference and an attitude
of Arrogance has put the country at risk of becoming another failed African State despite the incredible chance we had in 94.
and finally, south Africa in particular sings a siren song to those who are born there, my Daughter may decide to go back to her roots when I am dead, I would like there to be something better than there is at the moment.

You also said"South Africa will become what it will, whether you feel sad about it or not. It's not personal, it's just life. "

The Nats lost because of Public International exposure, The ANC fear the same press.
It may be one lonely voice screeching on the web, but its proved more effective than umpteen petitions earnestly signed and handed to some minor functionary who promptly consigns it to a bin.
It becomes personal if you feel strongly enough about it, the alternative is to bury your head in the sand and say che sera sera, it may well be, but again , if one thing I write makes someone somewhere say hang on, maybe we could, then my interst is worthwhile.

Oh, it may be a DEVELOPING Country to you, but in many many ways it has had first world infrastructure in comparison to the other developing Countries.

and true, car Accidents do happen, but they dont seem to instil the same fear of repeats as armed robberies do.


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## Martinw (Jan 2, 2009)

Daxk said:


> Klebe asked "why the continued strong feelings as opposed to indifference? "
> or a number of reasons that may be difficult for you to understand.
> 
> I was born and raised there,love the place with a passion,
> ...


Daxk, I could not have worded that any better myself. I sure hope that a couple of peoples views like ours(which is the truth and facts and nothing else) maybe make people start to think about these thing and mybe people will start taking noticing these things about a country, which was not a "developing country" some years back, well thats how I remember DBN and JHB( before I remember it in the state it became and now prob- well lets just say dont even want to no anymore.)


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Martinw,Thank you for the kind words but please understand that I distance myself totally from the websites that you have been promoting as well as the constant referrals to rape of close relatives.
I had enough of that in the Defence Force and from the Nats.


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## Klebe (Dec 29, 2008)

Halo said:


> Look, I work for a large multi-national and we have business in sh!t-pits too and people have to go there BUT
> 
> 1. Its for a limited period
> 2. They are paid in Forex
> ...


Why do you presume I have not considered and catered for all of the above? Could you be making gross assumptions about my circumstances based on my opinion of a developing country?



Halo said:


> If you believe that about Zuma, perhaps you are going to enjoy the ride to the tune of “Umshini-wam (Get Me My Machine Gun)” sung by the man himself.
> 
> Bring me my machine gun
> do not hold me back
> ...


Like I said, populist fool, much like George Bush and his "nucilear" weapons of mass destruction, Brown with his spend your way out of recession...whatever keeps the man in the job. They're all politicians, personality traits would have ensured the choices they made in live to end up on top of the dog pile means they're the meanest dogs in the pack.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Point taken....

PS It was Clinton who first alluded to WMD and to compare the two (Bush/Zuma) is a little rich.

Look, you make your bed, you lie in it - I just hope you will be safe and things go well - Best wishes.


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## Klebe (Dec 29, 2008)

Daxk said:


> Klebe asked "why the continued strong feelings as opposed to indifference? "
> or a number of reasons that may be difficult for you to understand.
> 
> I was born and raised there,love the place with a passion,
> ...


I can understand your point. I applaud you for your optimism in assuming that you can make a change in the international public's opinion from the outside. 
I too was raised in this country, I had a wonderful, blissfully ignorant childhood.
Most of my family who cannot leave are still living here behind their walls (real and imagined.)
I just don't believe that by seeing all the worst about the place is going to a: change anything and b: help me and my family in any way what-so-ever.
This country will have to make a better future with new blood, not people who feel some great loss as to what they and theirs have lost and is losing.
We are not the future of this country, perhaps our children will have less emotional investment and therefore more level headed clarity about what can and should work for this society, for what it is now. This South Africa will and should never be the place you and I knew and grew up in.



Daxk said:


> Oh, it may be a DEVELOPING Country to you, but in many many ways it has had first world infrastructure in comparison to the other developing Countries.
> 
> and true, car Accidents do happen, but they dont seem to instil the same fear of repeats as armed robberies do.


Having lived in a developed country and travelled widely, I disagree that South Africa ever was a first world country. It certainly had some aspects of a first world country, but it's society has been in it's infancy when it comes to the ideals embodied by a first world country. Yes, the infrastructure was and still is the best in Africa, but it lived with a majority of it's population denied the possibility to share in the future of the country! 
People also tend to forget the reason they can point to crime, immigration etc statistics, is because of the fact that this developing country has the infrastructure to be able to compile statistics! 
I maintain that this country is no worse than some developing countries and a damn site better than most. Huge investment by our Chinese friends who're waiting in the wings, so can't be a totally bad investment for the future.
Where there's money, there's a way... just look at Dubai
I cannot change a thing about the politics, crime or future, injustices or imbalances, but I can make the best out of my life where ever I may be.


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## Klebe (Dec 29, 2008)

Halo said:


> Point taken....
> 
> PS It was Clinton who first alluded to WMD and to compare the two (Bush/Zuma) is a little rich.
> 
> Look, you make your bed, you lie in it - I just hope you will be safe and things go well - Best wishes.


Thank you for your concern, may your life be everything you hope it to be


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Hey Klebe, which of those Politicians can be voted out?

Is Zuma one of them when he makes it to the SA Presidency?
If The Western World looks askance at his Rape Trial and Corruption Charges, would any Western political party put him up for the Presidency or is it just a south African thing?


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## Klebe (Dec 29, 2008)

Most certainly a South African thing, and more to the point, an African thing! Western ideas of democracy does not necessarily apply, but that's Africa!


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

"*I can understand your point. I applaud you for your optimism in assuming that you can make a change in the international public's opinion from the outside*."

Its actually amazing how a little bit of information in a Journalists ear before a interview or press conference can make a difference to the questions someone gets asked when they have their hand out.
Remember the ANC's little Campaign using stupid little shop girls and Outspan oranges?

*I too was raised in this country, I had a wonderful, blissfully ignorant childhood.*
That too is still a South African trait, ignore that which is going on around you.
That you were Unaware is your parents fault.

*Most of my family who cannot leave are still living here behind their walls (real and imagined.)
I just don't believe that by seeing all the worst about the place is going to a: change anything and b: help me and my family in any way what-so-ever*.
Neither is complimenting the King on his new clothes.

*This country will have to make a better future with new blood,* 
yes, That of the Children who are already growing up without any sense of Difference until they leave school and wish to attend University or apply for a job one day.
The ANC, have said that AA is here to stay.

*not people who feel some great loss as to what they and theirs have lost and is losing.*
As you said elsewhere, you are making assumptions without knowing anything about me.

*We are not the future of this country, perhaps our children will have less emotional investment and therefore more level headed clarity about what can and should work for this society, for what it is now. This South Africa will and should never be the place you and I knew and grew up in.*
I agree that SA will not and should not be what it was.
I also do not think that someone who is educated to Degree or Diploma level is still dis-advantaged, or are you saying that the education department is still following the Bantu Education departments curriculum? .

*Having lived in a developed country and travelled widely, I disagree that South Africa ever was a first world country. *
Kindly read what I compared SA to.

*Yes, the infrastructure was and still is the best in Africa,*
But declining due to lack of Maintenace,Planning and foresight.

*but it lived with a majority of it's population denied the possibility to share in the future of the country! *
At last I can agree with you.
However,in the midst of that, somehow, there were still Lawyers,Doctors and Graduates from Universities, said Universities were given overseas acreditation for their standards.
Something Wits is now struggling to maintain.

*People also tend to forget the reason they can point to crime, immigration etc statistics, is because of the fact that this developing country has the infrastructure to be able to compile statistics! *
The Statistics have been there since the 1950's
Population Statistics were impossible as because the majority of the population were there illegally because of unjust influx control laws and certainly we'rent going to give their details to any interviewer.
Crime statistics were also difficult as no-one in the townships were prepared to give any information to the SAP about anything because of the real danger of being branded an impimpi and being stoned or necklaced.
Secondly, The "Struggle" comrades had an active assasination campaign against black SAP members. (can give you the entire TRC Hearings if you wish)
lastly, the Community tended to do their own Policing.
The fact that the odd Gogo was burnt as a witch or an innocent got nailed because he had lent someone some money was just too bad.
The Mortuary vans had a busy time on mondays and if you are getting sniped at, its difficult to be a CSI officer..
However, since 1939 no one can be buried without a death certificate signed by a Doctor,
since 1961 (because of Sharpeville) all unnatural deaths had to be autopsied and the SA Medical Council kept a Mortality report showing cause of death for all Deaths.

*I maintain that this country is no worse than some developing countries and a damn site better than most.* 
I have spent considerable time in Mocambique,Angola, Zambia,Kenya and Tanzania and felt safer than I did in Midrand or Edenvale SA
As far as Nigeria and the DRC I would agree with you.

*Huge investment by our Chinese friends who're waiting in the wings, so can't be a totally bad investment for the future.*
Yes, China desparately needs SA 's Mineral resources, its Agricultural Food Production ability and its Strategic location at the Junction of the Indian and Atlantic Oceans.

As the Chinese learnt and proved in Tanzania, they have excess population , Worker class population, and SA and soon Zimbabwe have lots of open spaces and a large section of the population with a limited lifespan.

*Where there's money, there's a way... just look at Dubai*
yes, and most of the ruling Politicians and populace of SA have shown they can be bought.

*I cannot change a thing about the politics, crime or future, injustices or imbalances, but I can make the best out of my life where ever I may be*
Yes, and I wish you well with it and do not criticise you or try and denigrate you for it by casting aspersions on my motivation or reasons for doing it.


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## Klebe (Dec 29, 2008)

Daxk said:


> Yes, and I wish you well with it and do not criticise you or try and denigrate you for it by casting aspersions on my motivation or reasons for doing it.


Daxk, I apologise that you think I was casting any aspersions on your motivations, that was not my intention. 
Your point of view is valid, we just don't share the same reality. 
Good luck to you in Ireland?, I believe it's a beautiful place.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Apology accepted and it is a Beautiful Place.
I have however spent two years burning Tyres,Chopping up fridges and freezers to increase Global Warming,
Ireland needs about two degrees more Degree C on average.


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## Klebe (Dec 29, 2008)

Daxk said:


> Apology accepted and it is a Beautiful Place.
> I have however spent two years burning Tyres,Chopping up fridges and freezers to increase Global Warming,
> Ireland needs about two degrees more Degree C on average.


 Especially this winter!! Watching the weather in the British isles this winter went a long way to appeasing for all the things I miss from there! Hope Ireland is not dependant on Russia for gas!


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Nope,Ireland is'nt. and we have'nt been as badly hit with the cold as the UK.
or it has'nt felt that way. It took two years to acclimatise,the clothes are designed differently, Homes,shops and offices are centrally heated,Insulated and double glazed.
My daughter is barefoot most of the time and dress code at home is Tracksuit and t-shirts.
So unless you are a farmer or someone who works outside constantly you are'nt really affected.
My Home in SA has under floor heating throughout and Midrand drops below Freezing most winter Nights anyway, difference is their you huddled inside, here, you throw on a longsleeve shirt, Jersey,Jacket,Gloves and a beanie and go for a walk.
I can honestly say I have been colder in Dullstroom than I have been here. but I do miss the SA Summer.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

So Klebe, Unless its personal, where did you spend the last couple of years and why did you return?


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## Klebe (Dec 29, 2008)

Daxk said:


> So Klebe, Unless its personal, where did you spend the last couple of years and why did you return?


We lived in a beautiful little town called Esher in Surrey. It's about a 30 min train trip from Waterloo. Idyllic... typical Surrey "country side", horse riders everywhere, lots of bridleways to take long walks on. My dog (won't mention her owner)has picked up so much weight due to the lack of walks here in SA!

We returned because of a fantastic job offer. 
Don't plan to stay here long though, I miss the UK too much! Life's easy in the 1st world!

Can't be sure where we'll go next, so looking forward to what comes next. Meanwhile getting on with it.

Not to cause you upset, but I do see a difference for the better since we lived here 3 years ago. It might be due to the area, lived in Pretoria before, now in Bryanston. JHB parks board's been busy (lots of female workers constantly keeping the curbs pretty), new cab companies with youngsters driving clean fresh little Toyotas catering for the foreigners abound, Sandton City's full of Russians, French and Spanish families who's working on the Gautrain development. The Sandton area feels better, traffic's horrendous though! Most public works crews are female, which just tells you something about your average African male (gross generalisation!). It's pleasant to deal with young people, you just get the impression they're the youtube generation. You see gardeners with I-pods never mind mobile phones! I don't follow local politics, but from speaking to people I get the impression they're becoming more sophisticated. As I said, might just be the area! White people in general very angry and uptight though. African people are far more laid back in general. Was surprised at the whole Los Angeles bling thing, forgot how materialistic Saffers can be. Uk was a more tolerant society (in my humble opinion).

How long have you been in Ireland? North or south? Can kick myself for not getting on the ferry and going for a look-see. Just kept putting it off!


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Forgive me, KLebe, but every now and again you, you fall into the typical South African mindset.
why would good news upset? If its getting cleaner,better, safer thats wonderful news !!
SA working together in the same spirit of Ubuntu , togetherness, we are one that we saw after 94 and the first few years would make every so called "Bitter,racist Justifying expat" that I know( and thats a helluva lot) Happier than anything else.

For SA to have an accountable government that pushes education (as you pointed out) punishes Corruption and sticks to their own Freedom Charter and Original Constitution would be wonderful and create parties everywhere on Earth there are SA expats.
If Bryanston is getting better and Sandton has always been over the top anyway, thats great.
The problem is that not a stones throw away from Bryanston is Fourways/Jukskei/Craigavon and I get weekly digests of what is going on there, especially regarding crime.

I left in 2003, was fortunate that I had choices , but did'nt feel I needed the Sturm und drang of waiting for Oz or US Citizenship, had access to fast track EU passport.
looked at alot of places and Ireland was where I remembered SA being in the 70's iro Infrastructure and business.
Living in Dublin would have been the same as London or Birmingham or Johannesburg or Cape Town, just another City.
Chose Galway because my Mother used to sing the song,live on the corner of a farm in a house very similar to my SA one,Have trout Streams and Forests all around me, see more wildlife running free in my backyard iro rabbits and foxes and badgers than I have in years of hiking in SA,Duaghter and little friends duck over the back fence in the afternoons the same as I did when i grew up in SA, the Horses follow them around.

It takes 30 minutes to Galway City centre, am 40 minutes from Shannon International,
Thursday I'll leave home at 9am, have meetings in London at 1 , be back at 9pm.
for €61. including.
When I go to Dublin it takes the same amount of time to get to my offices from Midrand past the Jukskei and past Rivonia, William Nicoll and Randburg offramps.
Everyone greets you, life is slower here, but a mans handshake is still his bond.
And the women just as nosey.
People ask about the weather, but as I'm sure you did in Surrey (also very beautiful) you adapt and the rain seems to be different.
Carpe Diem is the order of the day.
But as you said, there's always a quid pro quo.
Mines the short days ,yours is the uncertainty.




irrespective,


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## Martinw (Jan 2, 2009)

I am sorry if a lot of you feel that I am so negative about South Africa, but I am still amazed how many people sit somewhere else in the world, like I am but telling people how wonderfull and great it is, yet you prob wouldnt go back there, or are "somewhere else" because of " work" or this or that. Crap. If South Africa was such a great place with all these wonderfull oppertunities yoiu would have been there. So are you guys feeling guilty and trying to get other people there or something. Everyone keeps on using the phrase "Beautifull country" I would agree in a way. It is the land that is beautiful, because my personal def of a country is everythin, incl the people and circumstances and way of life. And as a LAND yes no one can argue with that - AMNAZING - but as a country, remembering that everything that goes with that, people, violent crime, filth, diseases, etc. - No thank you. Australia, NZ(for me) UK, US, Canada for other win hands down.

I just wish all thse people will just mention all thse "little issues" to the people and not just "beautiful, great, BUT lock......and watch..... and dont...." Just tell the people the truth. or maybe we just see the truth and facts and somehow you choose not too, but we all know how you guys sleep at night. Well I live on a continent where most is OUtback desert, funny looking hopping things I dodge in the road, paople with funny accents, but would not trade if for a "beautifull Land" anyday, "because as far as a "country" goes this is beautiful. Safe, time to enjoy life and not worry about crime and violence.

(And BTW there are beautiful areas in this country too - South West Australia is awesome with green forrests etc - And here for me to see an amazing bird life, sea life like parrots, cockatoos, dolphins etc. I do not have to see them in someones cage or a dolphanarium, but see them where they belong - in nature and see them everyday at home, driving to work etc-except the dolphins- - have to go to the beach for that obviously - How awsome is that)


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## pegleg (Feb 12, 2009)

South Africa is a great place to live if you are not a caucasian.
I am a male caucasian still living in South Africa, busy with the process of immigration.

I agree whole heartedly with martin and dax, with their descriptions of S.A.
I am an English speaking caucasian and dont have that chosen nation thing to cling to, and have no need to either, as everybody makes their own fate.
What I will describe is the following;

I was injured (maimed) at work by a black persons neglegence, yet I dont hate him, what I do hate is the way the company handled the matter, where the black person was not even subjected to a hearing or anything, but at the same work place whites who did very minor things were suspended for weeks or even fired.
Workmans compensation has been corrupted by highly incompetent people and are now being taken to task by the DA, meantime beneficiaries (69000 of them and counting) of this government run insurance are still out in the cold , some since 1994!

Yesterday I drove behind a truck operated by a driving school.
It was loaded with passengers, driven by a haphazard learner driver and her instructor who nearly drove us off the road.
I enquired at the local chief of traffic, yes the law was changed 6 -7 years back allready to allow for that.

Now comes the interesting question: What if the driver killed people whilst having a truck load of passengers/or even killing them too, what would the legalities be for that? (chances are if you are white, you would be responsible for the 10 - 20 passengers that were on the truck)
It shows you there is no respect for life in South Africa.
I too have a 3 year old daughter and wife that deserve a beter chance at life without fear.
Everything is ascribed to "the lagacy of apartheid" or " Bad luck" or " the Legacy of colonialism".
Russian Roulette with a South African flavour.


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## anirac (Feb 15, 2009)

I have to agree with Martin, halo and dex as well as pegleg. I have been touched by crime several times and the future frightens me (especially since what is happening in Zimbabwe). It is Africa, nothing can change that.
We are looking at relocating ourselves but not so much because of the situation in the country - more because of the adventure and the uncertainty of my kids's future. 
I will always be a South African, maybe one day (as a white south african) I will be welcome again??


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## pegleg (Feb 12, 2009)

Ditto for me!


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## Nostalgia Nut (Feb 11, 2009)

Well, I am not a caucasian. I am Indian with brown skin. I have already decided to take up an offer there and will be moving in a couple of months or so. I can only hope and pray that the crime won't affect me. Repeatedly reading posts about violent crime distresses me greatly and makes me fearful for my future! 

The FIFA Wold Cup is coming there next year. The whole world will be visiting. Things can only get better! Does nobody feel this way???

*trying to be optimistic*


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

No. I dont.


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## anirac (Feb 15, 2009)

Nostalgia Nut said:


> Well, I am not a caucasian. I am Indian with brown skin. I have already decided to take up an offer there and will be moving in a couple of months or so. I can only hope and pray that the crime won't affect me. Repeatedly reading posts about violent crime distresses me greatly and makes me fearful for my future!
> 
> The FIFA Wold Cup is coming there next year. The whole world will be visiting. Things can only get better! Does nobody feel this way???
> 
> *trying to be optimistic*


Honestly?? I don't think SA's problems can be fixed with the FIFA world cup next year. Socio-economic problems will take years to fix if the government pro-actively starts making a change now. 
It isn't only foreigners (excuse the term!!) like yourself or caucasian's who is at risk for violent crime. Many many black people are attacked and killed for little other reason than a cellphone (if that), little babies raped as a cure for aids, children molested, raped and left to die. 
I hopw you aren't directly affected by crime, but you simply cannot help feeling distressed when someone you know is affected. We have elections coming up in April, hopefully there will be a change in government and hopefully a change in our lives...but seeing the violence against the opposition parties, doesn't paint a happy picture.


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## pegleg (Feb 12, 2009)

anirac said:


> Honestly?? I don't think SA's problems can be fixed with the FIFA world cup next year. Socio-economic problems will take years to fix if the government pro-actively starts making a change now.
> It isn't only foreigners (excuse the term!!) like yourself or caucasian's who is at risk for violent crime. Many many black people are attacked and killed for little other reason than a cellphone (if that), little babies raped as a cure for aids, children molested, raped and left to die.
> I hopw you aren't directly affected by crime, but you simply cannot help feeling distressed when someone you know is affected. We have elections coming up in April, hopefully there will be a change in government and hopefully a change in our lives...but seeing the violence against the opposition parties, doesn't paint a happy picture.


I agree with you anirac, but the elections are going to be an eye opener for many.
The problem is, will the ANC relinquish power peacefully or will they resort to Robert mugabe's ways?
Especially with Julius Malema baying at everyone and with his recent remarks, and previous remarks, and where he advocates/approves of white genocide?

I have also realised why some paint rosy pictures of South Africa:
Its because they may have assets/properties, etc in South Africa to dispose of so that THEY can get out (This is a possibility)


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## pegleg (Feb 12, 2009)

Dear Nostalgia nut;
Its not wether you are black, coloured, white, etc thats the issue, its the following:
Lets analyse this. . . with the current economic upheavals world wide and in South Africa, when the world cup is presented here, there will be many people (Especially the local blacks) looking for work, and when they dont get any they will resort to crime, and what beter takings there will be with foreighners with fancy cameras, cash, rapes murders, and with a black population in the millions (40 odd million?) what are the chances?


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

South Africa in on its way to another African renaissance.......... To put any faith in SA is pure folly and to contemplate a move there is pure insanity.


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## anirac (Feb 15, 2009)

pegleg said:


> I agree with you anirac, but the elections are going to be an eye opener for many.
> The problem is, will the ANC relinquish power peacefully or will they resort to Robert mugabe's ways?
> Especially with Julius Malema baying at everyone and with his recent remarks, and previous remarks, and where he advocates/approves of white genocide?
> 
> ...


I agree. I personally don't think it would be a "peaceful" transition from ANC to whatever. Whatever will be better than what we have now, but reading the sms'e on morning live gives me chills. There are actually people still believing in the ANC's way of running the country.


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## GALLUS (Jan 22, 2009)

Hello

My contribution is a follows.
South Africa is white dominated and Africans are keen to take a revenge on that. It does not help in any way if you are an expat. But it gives you ture on a latent conflict situation. For instance in KwaZulu and Mpumalanga the Land War has been going on for years....

An in some suburbs this land war is only brewing.

Apart from that, as an African or non African , I would recommend South Africa to all expats. But if you cannot stand injustice, segregation, violence, guns, economic crimes, sport, nature, fake, shopping malls and barbecues, you'd better avoid it.

In the contrary, If you like meat, parks, beaches, long distances, Chardonay, getting drunk on Friday as from 17.00, rugby, nice housing, good and expansive health services, greek food, hotel/lodges life .... this country is made for you.

My main concern is if you have a family with kids, especially girls : I agree with previous concerns about there safety and security. Not much more diffrent than London life or US, or Brasil, but with entirely different settngs and implications

good luck

Gallus


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## pegleg (Feb 12, 2009)

anirac said:


> I agree. I personally don't think it would be a "peaceful" transition from ANC to whatever. Whatever will be better than what we have now, but reading the sms'e on morning live gives me chills. There are actually people still believing in the ANC's way of running the country.


 Yes, there are those still believing in the anc's ways, but for those that are interested, there is an Australian Expo at galager estates in midrand Johannesburg, where there will be many employers, advice given, and contacts made for other destinations,etc,etc and can be google searched on the net.


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## jvwh3b (Mar 12, 2009)

*African-American Looking*

I posted an enquiry yesterday, one response. Tonight I read some of the other posts about the "truth" of South Africa. My God, is it really that bad, or is it that the power has shifted from White to Black and the Whites can't take it and therefore leave?

I'd love to hear from some Black Africans or African-Americans.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

jvwh3b said:


> I posted an enquiry yesterday, one response. Tonight I read some of the other posts about the "truth" of South Africa. My God, is it really that bad, or is it that the power has shifted from White to Black and the Whites can't take it and therefore leave?
> 
> I'd love to hear from some Black Africans or African-Americans.


Rather read the news....

PS Truth comes from all area's, African and American..... (thats enough labeling already I think)


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## jvwh3b (Mar 12, 2009)

*Thanks!*



Halo said:


> Rather read the news....
> 
> PS Truth comes from all area's, African and American..... (thats enough labeling already I think)


Thanks for the info and insight. Not to belabor the point, but we too, don't like labels too much. However, the truth is that a White might see a crime problem through a different lens than perhaps I would. Statistical data can also be used, but then that can be manipulated as well. We often percieve events from our own experiences and world view.

After reading some of he posts, I might never go to Joburg because of the "violent crimes." So, I just wanted another take on it. And, as far as truth goes; there's _your_ truth, _my_ truth and the _real_ truth. 

Thanks.


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## ROKZY (Feb 25, 2009)

jvwh3b said:


> However, the truth is that a White might see a crime problem...


It seems that you don't understand that by separating people into "colours" perpetuates racisim- and, I don't believe this to be your intent. There's been enough separation of colours and "those who cannot remember their history are are doomed to repeat it" (George Santayana). When you say "white" do you rather mean "a Polly Anna" or "sheltered person" and (as you know) these come in all colours. I agree that people are a product of their experience- however it's not their colour that delinates this, it's the conditions they are exposed to. For example, when you take an "asian" family and put them in a community of "non-asian" their experiences mirror what a "indian" family may feel in a similar circumstance... it's not their colour that determines the experience, it's the conditons they are exposed to. Yes, let's embrace individuality but at the end of the day it's not colour that matters- its humanity. MLK and Mandiba worked for this. What we can do is commit to make a better world and quite with the "percieved" separation and verbal segregation. I'm down with your kumbiah vibe.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

jvwh3b, would you consider Reuters a credible News source?
the Sa Press Agency (SAPA) is seen to be a credibile source by all of your American networks?

The press in SA have been "asked" to report crime "positively"
a Pharmacist known to my wife personally, was shot and killed in a pharmacy at Edenvale, Johannesburg this last weds during an armed Robbery.
Still has'nt appeared in the press reports.
So what appears is usually watered down, page 7 stuff, in the bottom right hand corner.
As to your comment about wether whites were leaving because Blacks are in Control??
If you did a bit of research you would find that educated,skilled black South Africans emigrate for the same major driver as whites do, Crime.
If you do go to SA you will find racists.
You will find Black racists, Asian Racists ,White Racists and Coloured (Mullatto) racists.
You will also find a Country that had an incredible promise in the Miracle of 1994, slowly turning towards being another failed African State for the same reasons raised by Fidel Castro, because its leaders are seduced by the "Honey of Power"

You have a Multicoloured Govt (The ANC Politicians are very carefully Representative of all the races) who attempt to change the Constitution,Interfere
with the Judiciary,Interfere with the Organs of law enforcement, Attempts to introduce curbs on the Freedom of the press, acknowledges corruption but does nothing about it, refuses to be accountable and throws up its hands in Mock Horror at any Criticism and blames it on the past.

You could go there and not be affected by Crime at all, or you could cross a predators path.
as an African American you will find lip service acceptance.
The South Africans are the most Xenophobic race you could find, they mostly cant get on even within their own tribes, Zulu's and Xhosa's have an age old enmity, The Tswana are looked down on by the top two tribes, everyone hates the pedi's and the Sotho are considered dirt Eaters.
And along comes a Black "Brother" who has all the answers. 
You have 11 official languages, bud.
Its sometimes the Tower of Babel by choice.

My side, Love the place, its my country but will never be my home again.
because of Crime and because of a spirit of entitlement and arrogance by the 
Powers that be.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

jvwh3b said:


> Thanks for the info and insight. Not to belabor the point, but we too, don't like labels too much. However, the truth is that a White might see a crime problem through a different lens than perhaps I would. Statistical data can also be used, but then that can be manipulated as well. We often percieve events from our own experiences and world view.
> 
> After reading some of he posts, I might never go to Joburg because of the "violent crimes." So, I just wanted another take on it. And, as far as truth goes; there's _your_ truth, _my_ truth and the _real_ truth.
> 
> Thanks.


Its hard to manipulate the body-count.... Or perhaps you need to speak to some of the rape victims.
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE52C3MN20090313 (please start here)

Be very careful - Just because you are black, it does not mean you.
1. Won't be a victim of crime
2. Will understand African tribal culture which is part of the reason SA is in so much trouble.

PS Most "white" people I know don't give a monkey who is in power as long as they have work and can live in relative safety.

As for the Indian v Black - Coloured (not derogatory) vs Black and Black vs Black (i.e. Zulu / Xhosa) is on par with how the white population feel, and at times more so.

There is much hate in SA (loads of love to) so those that have a brain and want a good life for their kids (ALL creeds and colours) leave. Why anyone would want to come to SA from the USofA (I've traveled the states extensively) need to see a psychiatrist


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## TheLastBaron (Mar 27, 2009)

Daxk said:


> So Klebes Take on the Disillusionment that a very large slice of South Africans feel is that its white Afrikaners who are no longer the Baas,no ongerthe chosen people?
> Thats the reason for the Huge Brain Drain Post 94? Census 96 and 2001 showed 841,000 less white bums on seats in SA on Census day,
> so do tell ,Klebe,
> The little pop surveys that show white and blacks thinking seriously about leaving SA if they could, what do you ascribe that to?
> ...


Hmm, Daxk, what you describe doesn't sound much different from life in any American inner city. True, the security bars on the windows are not quite as prevalent in the (mostly white, affluent) suburbs, but drive through downtown D.C., the poorer parts of any American city, and you will find people living the same way... drive-bys, check. Rape? Check. Murder? Check. Arson? Check. Drugs everywhere? Check. Police sirens morning noon and night? Check? Racism at work, on the streets, everywhere? Check. Gay-bashing? Check. Vandalism and graffiti everywhere? Check. People who harp on their rights a lot? Check. Apathy and unwillingness to do anything about any of it? Check. Power black outs and brown outs due to lack of investment in the power grid and aging power plants? Check. Check. Check. Tourists robbed in broad daylight? Check. Police not caring? Check. Check check. While not quite as rampant, the same holds true for Germany.

Having a sister with a house in Co. Donegal, it is a lovely place, grant you. And if you can find work there, marvelous. If you can't, you're in the same boat as you are in the U.S., Germany, other places once you cross that magical "50" line... 

And yes, if I won the lotto tonight for €38 million, would I go anywhere to work? No no no. I'd live off the proceeds, maybe in Ireland, maybe on those Seychelles you crave, or maybe, oh, I don't know, in Cape Town.


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## jvwh3b (Mar 12, 2009)

I've not been to South Africa, that's part of the reason I joined this forum. However, the portrayal of American cities is somewhat inaccurate. Even inner-city American cities are not as bad as some in this forum might try to make them appear. Yes, we have crime and other problems; social and otherwise. But the way some make it sound, if I was from another country, I would never ever come to America. But, let's face it, America and its people are wonderful, as is South Africa I am sure.

Let's bring it out front; some on this forum are equating Blacks with crime, and Whites (some of the largest purveyors of crime in South Africa and elsewhere) just don't want to be around Blacks. Plain and simple and why all this dancing around the issue? This is not the time for political correctness.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

jvwh3b said:


> I've not been to South Africa, that's part of the reason I joined this forum. However, the portrayal of American cities is somewhat inaccurate. Even inner-city American cities are not as bad as some in this forum might try to make them appear. Yes, we have crime and other problems; social and otherwise. But the way some make it sound, if I was from another country, I would never ever come to America. But, let's face it, America and its people are wonderful, as is South Africa I am sure.
> 
> Let's bring it out front; some on this forum are equating Blacks with crime, and Whites (*some of the largest purveyors of crime in South Africa and elsewhere)* just don't want to be around Blacks. Plain and simple and why all this dancing around the issue? This is not the time for political correctness.


I am sure there are some Racists in SA or who have left for the reasons you cite,jvwh3b, I've come across racism,specifically Black/white in every Country I've spent time in, but if you do meet up with SA Expats overseas, the ones who say they wont go back under any circumstances, you will find that they have either been exposed to Violent crime or had it happen close to them.
in SA, 80% of the population happens to be Black, so its 80% likely that your Criminal will be black.
I gather the US's Prison Demographic is different?

Which White Crime in SA were you referring to?
Just curious, you said you had'nt been to SA yet your flags are showing you as a US expat in SA?


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

TheLastBaron said:


> Hmm, Daxk, what you describe doesn't sound much different from life in any American inner city. True, the security bars on the windows are not quite as prevalent in the (mostly white, affluent) suburbs, but drive through downtown D.C., the poorer parts of any American city, and you will find people living the same way... drive-bys, check. Rape? Check. Murder? Check. Arson? Check. Drugs everywhere? Check. Police sirens morning noon and night? Check? Racism at work, on the streets, everywhere? Check. Gay-bashing? Check. Vandalism and graffiti everywhere? Check. People who harp on their rights a lot? Check. Apathy and unwillingness to do anything about any of it? Check. Power black outs and brown outs due to lack of investment in the power grid and aging power plants? Check. Check. Check. Tourists robbed in broad daylight? Check. Police not caring? Check. Check check. While not quite as rampant, the same holds true for Germany.
> 
> Having a sister with a house in Co. Donegal, it is a lovely place, grant you. And if you can find work there, marvelous. If you can't, you're in the same boat as you are in the U.S., Germany, other places once you cross that magical "50" line...
> 
> And yes, if I won the lotto tonight for €38 million, would I go anywhere to work? No no no. I'd live off the proceeds, maybe in Ireland, maybe on those Seychelles you crave, or maybe, oh, I don't know, in Cape Town.



Baron, I cant comment on crime in the US or Germany or anywhere else except SA and Ireland as although I have visited many Countries and spent time in them, I have'nt lived there.
Holidaying somewhere does'nt make me an expert on that Country.
in the same way , when I'm in New York and someone who lives there warns me about going for a walk in Central Park at night or driving through an area in Bremen or Dusseldorf, I tend to listen.
To try and convince them that they who live there are wrong would be stupid.

when you visit your sister in Donegal,have a look around at the people,
you will see that ageism does'nt happen in Ireland, you will see fit,hardworking people up into their 80's.
Landing in a new country at 54 where no-one knows who you are, who you have worked for and what you are capable of is difficult, I took a step down as I figured,(rightly so,) that water would find its own level, it took a year to prove myself but I'm now further ahead than I was in SA, and there I was successful.

I guess it depends on the person and their attitude.
as regards retiring and Tropical Islands,, The Seychelles, Mahe particularly, Madagascar,Reunion and mauritius are all beautiful and I have visited them all often.
My first retirement lasted 2 years, but 33 was really too young,at 45 I got bored after 6 weeks and found a small Company that had promise, so i'll probably retire to the graveyard.

My priority was my daughter,her safety,her education,her lifestyle.
The Islands would give her lifestyle but not much else.
Southgrating to CT would have changed the likelihood of crime slightly, but the education, although vey good at this point, has a quota problem.
Because ALL SA's universities have to work to a racial demographic.
So if there are 100 places for the Course.
10 will go to the top white applicants,3 will go to Asian,6 will go to Coloured (Mullatto) and 1 will go the Chinese.
the remaining 80 will then go to Black Students.
which is very fair. the problem is if you are the 11th scoring white student, as lower marked black students get preference.
Ditto the job market for when she starts work.
as to your health, sooner or later you will require Serious medical care, if you are earning Foreign Income and the exchange rate is good, fine, if you are earning SA Rands and you have heart attack as a friend did, his medical Aid had become too expensive, the Private Clinic would have bankrupted him and wanted ZAR30,000 upfront as a deposit.
He went to a Govt hospital, scary stuff I saw there.
Its your life bud, I dont care wether you go there or not,
l


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## TheLastBaron (Mar 27, 2009)

Daxk said:


> I am sure there are some Racists in SA or who have left for the reasons you cite,jvwh3b, I've come across racism,specifically Black/white in every Country I've spent time in, but if you do meet up with SA Expats overseas, the ones who say they wont go back under any circumstances, you will find that they have either been exposed to Violent crime or had it happen close to them.
> in SA, 80% of the population happens to be Black, so its 80% likely that your Criminal will be black.
> I gather the US's Prison Demographic is different?
> 
> ...


He, like I, is probably planning to emigrate there. I will arrive there in July.

As for his comment about crime in the U.S. not approaching the levels of S.A., I have only witnessed and been a victim of crime in the U.S. and Germany, and can only say that crime in the U.S. is truly rampant in most of the larger cities. People, like law enforcement, are unaware of much of it or turn a blind eye to it in many places (Detroit, DC's black areas) etc. And the average white American rarely or never ventures into these areas and knows only what his government and the so-called "free press" (bridled under Bush and never quite recovered) tells them. As a mainly introverted people, Americans (of whom to this day fewer than 10 percent even own a passport or travel abroad any farther than Canada, Mexico or the Caribbean) have been fed a steady diet of "ignore the rest of the world behind the curtain" by their government since the end of WW II, and this diet was upped dramatically under Bush. This means that many will not even be aware of the fact that what they are being fed by their own government is completely off the wall.

Of course, the latter may be true in a number of places globally - it certainly is here in Germany, too, where people would rather stick their heads in the sand than notice everything that has been done by government in their name that stinks to high heaven since the 1970s.

As for U.S. prison statistics (and I intensely dislike statistics, as stated elsewhere) they bear a remarkable similarity to those you have cited. Actually, it is more dramatic in the U.S. - a cursory look at published statistics will show you that closer to 90% of the inmates are Black.

And racism exists and is rampant throughout the United States - racial profiling by police departments remains a hot-button issue, which is nothing more than blatant racism under the power of a badge dressed up or masked with another (now also well-known and problematic) name.

As for the assertion that if things were so bad there, the whole world wouldn't be wanting to emigrate to the U.S., that is a typical American assertion borne of utter ignorance of the rest of the planet. 

Daxk, thanks for sharing some of your info in your response. my point remains that I find the efforts of some, especially MartinW, who must spend an inordinate amount of time on his pc answering every thread of inquiry in this forum with comments designed to scare and intimidate others away from RSA offensive and a total waste of time. What is scary for one may not be for another...

And as for flags showing us as expats already in SA, that's a fault of the forum. I have not found any way to set mine to "Expat about to move to SA" and don't believe the forum provides any such setting...


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

*Not a true reflection*



TheLastBaron said:


> Hmm, Daxk, what you describe doesn't sound much different from life in any American inner city. True, the security bars on the windows are not quite as prevalent in the (mostly white, affluent) suburbs, but drive through downtown D.C., the poorer parts of any American city, and you will find people living the same way... drive-bys, check. Rape? Check. Murder? Check. Arson? Check. Drugs everywhere? Check. Police sirens morning noon and night? Check? Racism at work, on the streets, everywhere? Check. Gay-bashing? Check. Vandalism and graffiti everywhere? Check. People who harp on their rights a lot? Check. Apathy and unwillingness to do anything about any of it? Check. Power black outs and brown outs due to lack of investment in the power grid and aging power plants? Check. Check. Check. Tourists robbed in broad daylight? Check. Police not caring? Check. Check check. While not quite as rampant, the same holds true for Germany.
> 
> Having a sister with a house in Co. Donegal, it is a lovely place, grant you. And if you can find work there, marvelous. If you can't, you're in the same boat as you are in the U.S., Germany, other places once you cross that magical "50" line...
> 
> And yes, if I won the lotto tonight for €38 million, would I go anywhere to work? No no no. I'd live off the proceeds, maybe in Ireland, maybe on those Seychelles you crave, or maybe, oh, I don't know, in Cape Town.


No, no, this is by no means a true reflection of reality. While your information on the DC downtown area may be correct, it only holds truth for a very small percentage of the total US population. I own property in Florida USA and have researched USA statistics thoroughly over the last 3 years. 

Yes, you wil find crime in any country, but no, not to the extent that we have it here, believe me.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

What does interest me is wether the Last Baron made it to SA in July 2009 and is still there.


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## MartinB (Jul 7, 2010)

Hi all, I've never been in Sa but know some great people who are or lived in Sa.

What I think is that the life will be like you want to see it. Listen to much the experiences of other people is not always a good thing. Of course is important to listen what other people say but nothing is like own personal experience. 

We are all different and we need different things, we feel in different way what is around us.
Maybe yes, maybe Cape Town have a high rate of crime? Well, Do you think that Paris, London, Rome or Prague are that save like poeple think?

In Prague, in the middle of the old Europe you can't walk in center of the city alone becouse you risk a rape, a rubbering or maybe someone can kill you too..ok and what? We do it and nothink happend to me...just one time some fight but ok...
One guy was mureder in the center of Prague just becouse his car stucked in the middle of the road and two guys from Russian mafia Killed him couse they were druk.
What about Italy? Have you ever been in Neaples? Mafia kills poeple on the main street and poeple continue to walk like nothing happens becouse they have fear of the local mafia.
Here in Rome we have some neighborhood when even the Police wants to enter. Drugs everywhere and young guys killing others just becouse their fighting for a girl. Does it have sense?

Have u'lived in Prague in 1996? Police brutality was a big problem these days but the life was ok, we felt safe. It's just about knowing what u can do and what is better not to do.
Have you ever been in Paris after midnight in the underground? Have you seen all that police looking like Swat ready to fight? Does it feel secure?

Is this what you know about europe? Of course not, but you know it's ALSO like that.
When I was in Buenos Aires all people said be:"oh a very dangerous city! DOn't walk alone by night". U know what? I felt in Baires more secure than in Prague and walked at everyhour without problems.

So which is the point? It's that every city in the world have good and bad things. What are u looking for? Try it and decide, none can say what is good for you...you're the only one who can say how is a place.

I was in Bangkok and i loved it, other poeple hate it. Which one impression is right? None.
We all feel things in different way.

Have a nice day to all,
Martin


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

MartinB said:


> Mafia kills poeple on the main street and poeple continue to walk like nothing happens


 Do you have a lot of poeple's there? Lol. On a serious note: Martin, while I appreciate your observation, you just cannot compare the type of crime you have mentioned to that here in South Africa. 

I suggest you visit South Africa, I'm sure you will love the country, especially Cape Town, the most beautiful place in the world.


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## MartinB (Jul 7, 2010)

vegasboy said:


> Do you have a lot of poeple's there? Lol. On a serious note: Martin, while I appreciate your observation, you just cannot compare the type of crime you have mentioned to that here in South Africa.
> 
> I suggest you visit South Africa, I'm sure you will love the country, especially Cape Town, the most beautiful place in the world.


Hi Vegas, your words sounds a little bit ironic, are they?
I'm planing to visit SA in November 2010 and maybe live there for a while. 

What is important to understand is that crime is everywhere. Just look what happens in United States or in Moscow, in Russia or even like I said in some parts of Rome, where Police wont enter...

I'm not telling that in SA is all ok, of course, i think jburg is very dangerous but it's more dangerous than Rio in Brasil? If Cape is so dangerous why so many people expat there from "safer" places like England or Holland?

I think it's important not to convert the fear into something more big that it is for real. If u walk in Prague by night, yes, in some parts u can be Killed, raped...u have to know it. In NY a white guy can't enter in Bronx right? Ok, u have to know it. I suppose is the same in Cape isn'it?

I have a lot of friend and nothing happened to them never. What this means?


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

MartinB said:


> What is important to understand is that crime is everywhere. Just look what happens in United States or in Moscow, in Russia or even like I said in some parts of Rome, where Police wont enter...


This is the argument of those that:
1. Don't understand 
2. Want to shy away from what crime is all about in South Africa

In South Africa, IF you are a victim of say burglary there is a good chance that you will be physically harmed in some shape or form. Its more than "I just want your stuff to feed my drug habit".

Be careful not to equate crime and its reasons to those in other western/1st world countries as you will come off second best.


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## MartinB (Jul 7, 2010)

Halo said:


> This is the argument of those that:
> 1. Don't understand
> 2. Want to shy away from what crime is all about in South Africa
> 
> ...


Mhh...I never been there so I can say how it is. Just know a lot of people living i CT and nothing happened them ever.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

MartinB said:


> Mhh...I never been there so I can say how it is. Just know a lot of people living i CT and nothing happened them ever.


yet.
old joke, there are three kinds of people in SA

Those who have been affected by Crime

those who are waiting to be affected byCrime

and the criminals.


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## mman (Nov 15, 2009)

Daxk said:


> yet.
> old joke, there are three kinds of people in SA
> 
> Those who have been affected by Crime
> ...


Yea no that joke can be said about any country


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

mman said:


> Yea no that joke can be said about any country


true, how about if you have 4 daughters the figure says at least one will be raped in her lifetime?
how many other countries have that distinction?


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

ok, another quickie distinction,if the Govts figures are 26% of the population and the neighbouring countries have an average of 40% of the population, at least one of your daughters will die of aids.
or her hisband/boyfriend will infect her and you will spend your grandparent years looking after some orphans.


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## toddcarson (Jun 19, 2010)

*Crime SA where, when who- depends;*

I recently tried to get info about the current state of SA, in planning to move to Hoedspruit for retirement. It seems that alot of the feedback I got was from people who live in/near the cities, of working age and with children. I will not need to work, will not bring children, and will likely live on a private reserve with security. I will also likely return to the US several trimes each year for regular medical care. Is it wrong for me to believe that in MY situation, I will likely avoid most of the crime, fear of rape, etc? I have been to many places deemed "dangerous" - Sao Paolo, Rio, Colombia, Kenya- and know that even in the most dangerous places one can be pretty insulated from the everyday problems. It seems to me that for many south Africans, there is a real loss of feeling secure, a downturn- maybe it is different for those coming to SA _*expecting*_ the worst? I hope that SA can improve some of these problems at least a little. Luckily, I have some time to decide, and I know I am coming into a different world from the US or Europe. But so far, SA still beats DRC, Ghana, Tanzania, or Kenya!


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## toddcarson (Jun 19, 2010)

*Will die of HIV*



Daxk said:


> ok, another quickie distinction,if the Govts figures are 26% of the population and the neighbouring countries have an average of 40% of the population, at least one of your daughters will die of aids.
> or her hisband/boyfriend will infect her and you will spend your grandparent years looking after some orphans.


Wow! assuming that someone immigrating to SA is coming with a job ready and waiting, and that they would be able to afford health care- why would thier daughter die of AIDS? Even if infected, assuming the family could afford her treatment, she would likely live a normal lifespan-


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

toddcarson said:


> Wow! assuming that someone immigrating to SA is coming with a job ready and waiting, and that they would be able to afford health care- why would thier daughter die of AIDS? Even if infected, assuming the family could afford her treatment, she would likely live a normal lifespan-


I hope you're not serious?

&

In your case.... Have fun in South Africa... Why you would go through all the trouble of flying back when you have some amazing states you could retire to amazes me but if there is something you desire in South Africa - Go for it, they need your Forex.

Enjoy.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

toddcarson said:


> Wow! assuming that someone immigrating to SA is coming with a job ready and waiting, and that they would be able to afford health care- why would thier daughter die of AIDS? Even if infected, assuming the family could afford her treatment, she would likely live a normal lifespan-


Uhuh? how many aids infected people do you know?

define quality of life? or are you seriously suggesting that someone infected with aids and on antiretrovirals on a daily basis is able to lead the same lifestyle and promise as a non-infected child?

so she will marry an aids infected boy and they will have aids infected children?


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

toddcarson said:


> I recently tried to get info about the current state of SA, in planning to move to Hoedspruit for retirement. It seems that alot of the feedback I got was from people who live in/near the cities, of working age and with children. I will not need to work, will not bring children, and will likely live on a private reserve with security. I will also likely return to the US several trimes each year for regular medical care. Is it wrong for me to believe that in MY situation, I will likely avoid most of the crime, fear of rape, etc? I have been to many places deemed "dangerous" - Sao Paolo, Rio, Colombia, Kenya- and know that even in the most dangerous places one can be pretty insulated from the everyday problems. It seems to me that for many south Africans, there is a real loss of feeling secure, a downturn- maybe it is different for those coming to SA _*expecting*_ the worst? I hope that SA can improve some of these problems at least a little. Luckily, I have some time to decide, and I know I am coming into a different world from the US or Europe. But so far, SA still beats DRC, Ghana, Tanzania, or Kenya!


Todd, told you before, go, enjoy, as halo said, SA needs you and your dollars.


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## toddcarson (Jun 19, 2010)

*The Truth*



Martinw said:


> I just want to know, why any of the people that are " recommending" South Africa to foreigners and telling them how wonderfull and beautifull it is never bother to tell them the actual truth.
> 
> As someone considering moving to SA, I *definitely* do want the truth! But I think the problem is, that the "truth" for everyone can be different. A wealthy person moving to Capetown to live in an exclusive, gated community will certainly face different issues than the young family of 4, moving to Durban for a minimal paying job, who will need to use public health, public schools, and public transportation. I think it would be very helpful knowing more about the commenters personal situation. Where do *you* live and work? How long have you lived there? did you move around in SA, or have only lived in one region?
> 
> ...


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Todd, I dont know anyone else on here personally.
I would, by south african Standards have been considred a wealthy man with all the "toys" in a normal A-Income group suburb.
I still had 4 guys wih guns at my and my wifes head in an armed robbery.
I still had a mugging and two attempted carjackings.

Ihave very good friends who are also retired live in a game reserve where the only "criminals" are the elephants who break down the fruit trees but I also have a Cousin of 60 who was tied up with her 65 yo husband in a private game reserve in their retirement home
in the bush.
I dont care if you are the most experienced retired Navy Seal or Ranger, if you cross someones sightlines and they decide you have something to offer, thats you.

and if you survive, you will be called Lucky and the conversation will change.

Go, you have a dream.
live it.
it will either work for you or it wont.


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## JairajVi (Jun 14, 2010)

Daxk said:


> Todd, I dont know anyone else on here personally.
> I would, by south african Standards have been considred a wealthy man with all the "toys" in a normal A-Income group suburb.
> I still had 4 guys wih guns at my and my wifes head in an armed robbery.
> I still had a mugging and two attempted carjackings.
> ...


I really don't think that 45 million people live in fear everyday of their lives in SA. Then obviously the population would be on a drastic decline, if so many folk are murdered and are shot at in SA.....! In my opinion...it's mainly stats from what other people think that really shimmer off the good side to SA...and trust me...there are some very good sides to SA. For one, having had people being victims of crime in SA, I would say that SA is 'notorious' for it's crimes yes...but people do enjoy living in SA....why...?. I wouldn't say that they live everyday of their lives in fear...which is wrongly perceived in most of the posts here and which is directed wrongly as well, but they merely have become aware of living in the fast paced life in SA....that's the way of life and it's been there for a long time. Crime is everywhere in the world man...not only in SA...and I don't know why people that have moved away from SA should portray it as a 'war zone'....it's not...get over it....and get over yourselves...post some stuff that people would be interested in...at least then there would be someth'n called a conversation...and not speculation....! Sometimes stats gathered from links can be fake...why...merely cos of broadcasting and media....but the truth is far from spoken from our so called 'expats' that leave SA for various reasons. If you were victims of crime...I'm sorry for you guy's...but don't scare off innocent people that asks for innocent info of u'll. Like I said before...SA is no war zone...I would definitely recommend anyone to go there, have a look for themselves and then make a decision....that's the only way one will know...!!! Peace out....:focus:


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

JairajVi said:


> Crime is everywhere in the world man...not only in SA...



Am I sick of that old chestnut, man.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

But it IS the topic Jairiqv?
Its what Tod Carson was asking?


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## mman (Nov 15, 2009)

Daxk said:


> ok, another quickie distinction,if the Govts figures are 26% of the population and the neighbouring countries have an average of 40% of the population, at least one of your daughters will die of aids.
> or her hisband/boyfriend will infect her and you will spend your grandparent years looking after some orphans.


Wow seriously, daxk . Are you honestly getting that desperate to start writing crap like that?


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

mman said:


> Wow seriously, daxk . Are you honestly getting that desperate to start writing crap like that?


nope, the rape figures are from POWA, people against women abuse)
they ae also backed up by how many AZT Cocktails (the one you have to take within 12 hours of a rape to be effective ) are manufactured by Glaxo Smith Kline in Midrand.

If young people are as sexually active as their 50 yo parents were in the 1960+
and you have unprotected sex with more than 10 sexual partners, you stand a very high probability of sleeping with an aids infected person.
Source SA Medical Council Aids report.
If Aids was around I would definitely have been infected.
30% of all Pregnant mothers have HIV
Source SA health Professionals Councils report on AIDs.
ergo 30% plus of Fathers have AIDS.
If the Countries around you all have 40% aids and you have the same attitudes and morals, then its more likely that 40% of Sa's have AIDS.

which part of this does not make sense? MMan?


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## mman (Nov 15, 2009)

Daxk said:


> nope, the rape figures are from POWA, people against women abuse)
> they ae also backed up by how many AZT Cocktails (the one you have to take within 12 hours of a rape to be effective ) are manufactured by Glaxo Smith Kline in Midrand.
> 
> If young people are as sexually active as their 50 yo parents were in the 1960+
> ...


Ok so lets talk some reality here. Firstly no racism intended but the vast majority of aids infected people are the poor blacks. So if someone is coming into this country its unlikely that they are going to be sleeping with a homeless person every night. That's unless they are deranged. Secondly if they do happen to sleep with a "random dodgy" person they should certainly be wearing a condom else they are just plain stupid. 

Now to the rape scenario, Aids medicine has come along way, if you get raped there is plenty medication that can prevent aids 100% *IF* you take it soon after being raped. 

So please stop talking about Aids like its the flu that travels through the air and if you step foot in South Africa it will infect you. Aids is no reason to try and deter people from coming to South Africa.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

mman said:


> Ok so lets talk some reality here. Firstly no racism intended but the vast majority of aids infected people are the poor blacks. So if someone is coming into this country its unlikely that they are going to be sleeping with a homeless person every night. That's unless they are deranged. Secondly if they do happen to sleep with a "random dodgy" person they should certainly be wearing a condom else they are just plain stupid.
> 
> Now to the rape scenario, Aids medicine has come along way, if you get raped there is plenty medication that can prevent aids 100% *IF* you take it soon after being raped.
> 
> So please stop talking about Aids like its the flu that travels through the air and if you step foot in South Africa it will infect you. Aids is no reason to try and deter people from coming to South Africa.


So as long as you dont sleep with a poor,homeless person you will be ok?

yes, AIDS AZT cocktail has come a long way, and being raped is also not an automatic death sentence, not all rapists are HIV pos, but HIV is not the only problem aftera rape, or are you saying that only the poor black women in the townships are being raped?

and no you dont get it from the air or mosquitos, 
but it is another factor.

especially if you have children.

and if your kids are young enough, how do you go about having your nanny tested?
and if at a creche, how do you go about teaching your toddler that scrapes and bumps and scabby knees are not things of interest either, nor are blood noses.

There are lots of reasons to deter people from going to SA, and those with children should make their decision an informed one.

You may notice on another thread here that some young guy wishes to go and I have encouraged him.

Its a great country, Man, but a dangerous one.


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## canuck2010 (Jan 13, 2010)

Africa's largest economy, South Africa, has the highest unemployment ratio on the continent, with almost 60 percent of people being unemployed and 25 percent choosing not to participate in the country's economy, says an economist.

The majority of South African’s are currently receiving more money from welfare than from employment, said economist Mike Schussler in his '2010 Uasa South African employment report'.

In total, 12,8-million people working and 13,8-million people receiving welfare payments from the proceeds of only five-million people.

Schussler noted that 40,8 percent of adults in South Africa were employed, compared with 83 percent in Uganda, 80 percent in Rwanda and 78 percent in Tanzania and Malawi. 

-----

Make sure you build an extra high wall around your compound.


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## Weebie (Sep 16, 2009)

Just came back from South Africa. I knwo it was the world cup but honestly I felt safer walking in central joburg during the day than about half the suburbs in Perth during the day.

Cape town surely is not as dangerous as Australian cities I would like to know the murder per capita rate I betcha its lower than Aus.


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## mman (Nov 15, 2009)

canuck2010 said:


> Africa's largest economy, South Africa, has the highest unemployment ratio on the continent, with almost 60 percent of people being unemployed and 25 percent choosing not to participate in the country's economy, says an economist.
> 
> The majority of South African’s are currently receiving more money from welfare than from employment, said economist Mike Schussler in his '2010 Uasa South African employment report'.
> 
> ...


Those stats are very very wrong, not sure where you got them from. Will post correct stats if you want?


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## crazy-badger (Jul 15, 2010)

I'd agree that each of us can only really speak for him/herself on the basis of personal experience.

I relocated to Jo'burg in April with my wife and two young sons. I work just inside the ring road and we live in the Northern suburbs.

Yes - there is a level of crime that demands serious attention and precautions that take some getting used to, but it is still possible to live a decent and pleasurable family life here.

One's level of awareness needs to be pretty high and it's important to be "sensible" about everyday life (where not to go / what not to do) - but much of the advice is readily available and is largely common sense.

We came from a small village in England - and I can tell you that was not without crime, albeit of a different nature. Thankfully we've been safe here so far... but I'd concede that we don't take that for granted.

Being able to live anywhere as an expat is a tremendous privilege and experiencing life in Jo'burg is something I'm grateful for.


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

mman said:


> Those stats are very very wrong, not sure where you got them from. Will post correct stats if you want?


 Please post them. I cannot see how a person like Mike Schussler's stats can be flawed.:confused2:


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

mman said:


> Those stats are very very wrong, not sure where you got them from. Will post correct stats if you want?


yes please.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

I'm always up for a few extra stats.... Bring em on Mman.....


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## robosch (Sep 13, 2008)

So, after reading this entire thread, I guess you're telling me it wouldn't be a good idea to take my disabled Indian child to live in Langebaan? Even though he has been offered a place in a school there - that we've waited months for :-( Is there no place safe at all? We're going to look like an unlikely couple anyway - him being Indian (very small for an 11 yr old) and me an aging white UK born woman.

Well, would you do it or not?


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

robosch said:


> So, after reading this entire thread, I guess you're telling me it wouldn't be a good idea to take my disabled Indian child to live in Langebaan? Even though he has been offered a place in a school there - that we've waited months for :-( Is there no place safe at all? We're going to look like an unlikely couple anyway - him being Indian (very small for an 11 yr old) and me an aging white UK born woman.
> 
> Well, would you do it or not?


Every circumstance is different... Nothing wrong with Langebaan, actually the west coast if still pretty good but its all about the future and what you want out of your 3 score and 10.
In the UK you will get good (and free) care for your son (if required) - something you will struggle to get in South Africa.

Best suggestion - go over and have a look and make up your own mind.


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## robosch (Sep 13, 2008)

He hasn't got a school in the UK, we've tried for years! We're in India still right now - hoping to leave before October


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Robosch, you are not guaranteed to either be safe or to be a victim.

If thats the only place in the world that can offer what you need, then you do not actually have a choice.

Apart from the belief by a few optimists, the majority of negative posters on here would prefer you to at least have read and informed yourself about the risks.
forewarned, forearmed, so to speak.

even tho the Cape (and I'm no expert on it) appears to be safer, some simple basics will help.
if your son is disabled , then the time it takes to get him into and out of a car needs to be looked at, make sure that it is at least separated from the street by some form of security.

be well, be safe and enjoy.


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

Daxk said:


> Robosch, you are not guaranteed to either be safe or to be a victim.
> 
> If thats the only place in the world that can offer what you need, then you do not actually have a choice.
> 
> ...


Robosch, I was recently introduced to my new Langebaan neighbour by a businessman who came to see me. I visit my Langebaan property about 2-3 times a year.

On enquiring why he relocated from Kleinmond to Langebaan, he pulled up his shirt, showing four bullet marks on his body. I then turned to the businessman and directed the same question to him on which he replied: "same reason", and went into detail about all the horrible things he encountered in Pretoria.

I then asked: "So why Langebaan", on which both explained that due to it's location, Langebaan is very safe. When leaving Langebaan, there is basically one way out towards Cape Town, so you need to drive about 10 km's outbound before reaching the R27. Hijackers and criminals have little chance of getting away, which makes Langebaan relatively safe and a great place to live if small town living is your thing.


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## robosch (Sep 13, 2008)

Thanks, all of you for your responses. Yes we do very much like small towns and my son loves the Ocean. We have a lawyer friend who lives in Capetown and has had many problems herself in past years.

I don't even recall how Langebaan came up - clicking from one link to another I guess, as usual. Then I found the two schools that seemed perfect.

My son would be taken and brought back from school by their bus. I guess we would shop in the town as much as possible and only go to CT to meet up with our friend. There are not only Caucasians in the school, which was a priority with me as my son is Indian.

Some of the apartments are cheap enough that we could afford them, though I have not found out whether they are patrolled by security yet. There is much to do still. 

As I have not ever been to SA, especially Langebaan, I know nothing except what I have read on the Internet. My CT friend is a Diplomat and we first hooked up when she was in Ireland a few years ago. It's been 12 years since she and her family lived in SA and I guess she found it difficult settling back too - perhaps still does.

Looks don't count, I know, and Langebaan could be dressed and made- up like a girl on a friday night date, only seeing the real person when all the facade was off.bad ten years trying to get things sorted here, I was only hoping that we could make a good new start to life in Langebaan .

In my heart I believe that this may be his only choice left. We've had a 










vegasboy said:


> Robosch, I was recently introduced to my new Langebaan neighbour by a businessman who came to see me. I visit my Langebaan property about 2-3 times a year.
> 
> On enquiring why he relocated from Kleinmond to Langebaan, he pulled up his shirt, showing four bullet marks on his body. I then turned to the businessman and directed the same question to him on which he replied: "same reason", and went into detail about all the horrible things he encountered in Pretoria.
> 
> I then asked: "So why Langebaan", on which both explained that due to it's location, Langebaan is very safe. When leaving Langebaan, there is basically one way out towards Cape Town, so you need to drive about 10 km's outbound before reaching the R27. Hijackers and criminals have little chance of getting away, which makes Langebaan relatively safe and a great place to live if small town living is your thing.


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