# Social Safety Net in Mexico?



## TundraGreen

HolyMole said:


> …
> As an aside - and I'm sure I'm not the only one to ask this question - why would the Mexican government make it more difficult for foreigners, especially retirees, to qualify for residency visas? Are they afraid of indigent gringos making demands on the almost non-existent Mexican social safety net?


I don't know why they have raised the limits. But the Mexican social safety net is better than the US social safety net in some ways, medical in particular. There is also DIF*, but I am not familiar with the details about what they provide.

*Desarollo Integral de la Familia


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## AlanMexicali

Longford said:


> As for the "social safety net" in Mexico: I doubt anyone's going to seriously claim what's available in Mexico is as expansive or of a higher quality as is available in either the USA or Canada.


Where in the USA or Canada can a worker with a family buy a new small house or apartment for $500.00 USD down and $120.00 USD per month after working for 6 months in a city with an easy to get low interest loan. In Mexico this type of social welfare is available to workers and their family.

Let´s not try to compare NOB welfare systems with Mexican systems, it is not similar. Giving slanted info. is one thing I see many NOBers doing all of the time without knowing what Mexico´s systems are all about and usually not caring to find out.



In Mexico, a Plan to Beat Poverty With Health Care and Education

http://www.ers.usda.gov/media/927155/fanrr6b_002.pdf

[email protected]: Recommendations to make the affordable housing sector in Mexico more efficient in order to increase the welfare and quality of life of Mexicans

http://www.odi.org/sites/odi.org.uk/files/odi-assets/publications-opinion-files/1918.pdf


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## AlanMexicali

AlanMexicali said:


> Where in the USA or Canada can a worker with a family buy a new small house or apartment for $500.00 USD down and $120.00 USD per month after working for 6 months in a city with an easy to get low interest loan. In Mexico this type of social welfare is available to workers and their family.
> 
> Let´s not try to compare NOB welfare systems with Mexican systems, it is not similar. Giving slanted info. is one thing I see many NOBers doing all of the time without knowing what Mexico´s systems are all about and usually not caring to find out.
> 
> 
> 
> In Mexico, a Plan to Beat Poverty With Health Care and Education
> 
> http://www.ers.usda.gov/media/927155/fanrr6b_002.pdf
> 
> [email protected]: Recommendations to make the affordable housing sector in Mexico more efficient in order to increase the welfare and quality of life of Mexicans
> 
> http://www.odi.org/sites/odi.org.uk/files/odi-assets/publications-opinion-files/1918.pdf





Longford said:


> As for the "social safety net" in Mexico: I doubt anyone's going to seriously claim what's available in Mexico is as expansive or of a higher quality as is available in either the USA or Canada.


Also what might be considered government and societal social welfare programs:

Heavily subsidized electric costs, if you stay out of the DAC rate. Property taxes that reflect a small fraction of what they cost NOB. Regulated drug costs. Regulation on some of the basic food costs. 50% discounts for seniors on water, property taxes, 50% discounts on city busses and intercity busses, discounts on medicines and various other things including free admission to government archaeological sites, musuems, free rides on the subway in Mexico City, etc.

Free daycare for some government and union member employees. Free rehab from DIF for addicts.


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## Longford

Yes, the social safety net is so darn good someone needs to convince the approx. 50% of Mexicans living below a terribly low poverty line it's so good. Tens of millions of Mexicans have fled their country for what they believe is a better life elsewhere. Anywhere but Mexico. Thousands died in the deserts ... on their way out of Mexico, searching for something better. Yes, remind the old they can ride some busses for 50% off, or subways which don't exist where they live.


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## AlanMexicali

Longford said:


> Yes, the social safety net is so darn good someone needs to convince the approx. 50% of Mexicans living below a terribly low poverty line it's so good. Tens of millions of Mexicans have fled their country for what they believe is a better life elsewhere. Anywhere but Mexico. Thousands died in the deserts ... on their way out of Mexico, searching for something better. Yes, remind the old they can ride some busses for 50% off, or subways which don't exist where they live.



http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/mexican-immigrants-united-states

"As of 2013, approximately 11.6 million Mexican immigrants resided in the United States—up from 2.2 million in 1980—and Mexicans accounted for 28 percent of the country’s 41.3 million foreign born."

A far cry from "tens of millions" 

Maybe do some research before posting. 

Living in the US: "Compared to the total foreign-born population, Mexican immigrants were more likely to be Limited English Proficient (LEP), have less education and lower income, experience a higher poverty rate, and lack health insurance."

"The vast majority of Mexican emigrants settle in the United States, with others heading to Canada (70,000), Spain (47,000), and Guatemala (17,000), according to mid-2013 estimates by the United Nations Population Division."

Isn´t this discussion about modern Mexico´s social welfare systems and not about Mexico´s poverty level or Mexicans immigrating to other countries? Do you have anything to contribute? I don´t think comparing welfare systems in the US or Canada with what Mexico has is going anywhere. 

"As an aside - and I'm sure I'm not the only one to ask this question - why would the Mexican government make it more difficult for foreigners, especially retirees, to qualify for residency visas? Are they afraid of indigent gringos making demands on the almost non-existent Mexican social safety net?"

I was concentrating on HolyMole´s above comment and not really considering what you posted.

If you want to discusss Mexicans immigrating to other countries why not start a thread about it?


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## Bobbyb

Longford is dead on. There is almost no social safety net in Mexico. Ask the single mothers with multiple babies and no husband if they get any help. Ask the beggars in wheelchairs if they get any help. Why would a Mexican risk his life to cross a desert after paying outrageous fees to some Coyote if life were so great in Mexico?


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## buzzbar

Bobbyb said:


> Ask the beggars in wheelchairs if they get any help. Why would a Mexican risk his life to cross a desert after paying outrageous fees to some Coyote if life were so great in Mexico?


I don’t believe either of the points you make are based on good evidence. Each week I cross to visit San Diego and in the downtown area am accosted on just about every street corner by beggars. You can’t make an assumption about the existence or adequacy of a safety net by highlighting people who may not take advantage of one.

This continual claim of Mexicans “fleeing” their country for “anywhere but Mexico” is looking at things backwards in my opinion. It’s about USA, not Mexico. The latest stats (2014) from the Diversity Lottery show that more than 14 million people from eligible countries entered the lottery. Those millions of people made an active decision to attempt to leave their homes and friends to emigrate to USA (which of course, if successful, would also involve considerable costs and fees.) So it’s hardly surprising that the attractions of USA also appeal to residents of a country right next door to it. I’m not convinced that the number of Mexicans who wish to live in America has any more relevance to conditions in their home country than it does for the many Japanese, German, Italians and Russians, for example, who also aspire to move to USA.


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## kcowan

I think the IMSS program is very good value. But it is pretty expensive for low end families. It does include pharma. But there are no welfare programs for the unemployed or infirm.

And beggars make out pretty well in certain cities. In Vancouver, they determined that the average income was around $55k and no taxes.


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## Isla Verde

kcowan said:


> I think the IMSS program is very good value. But it is pretty expensive for low end families. It does include pharma.


That's why the Seguro Popular program was set up a couple of years ago, to provide health care at no cost to Mexicans without access to IMSS.


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## Bobbyb

buzzbar: My comments are based on what I see and talking to our Mexican friends. Mexicans do not want to go the USA. They love their country. But with no real social safety net life can be difficult. I am Canadian and I compare our systems to those in Mexico. In Canada a disabled person gets welfare and/or job training. Single mothers get assistance. Employees who lose their job due to shutdowns can get retraining. Need a high school diploma? You will get help. Mexicans generally get none of the above Young men are forced to cross the desert and get work NOB. Disabled can beg DIF for help but little is available. So they beg in the streets. To deny that this is true is ludicrous. Get out of the big cities and ****** enclaves and see the other Mexico. Don't bother quoting fictitious statistics. Seguro Popular has been a good program but the drugs are very limited and the clinics can be 3rd world. Your comparison of Germans or other Europeans and Mexicans shows no knowledge of the problems that Mexican face. Do you think a young Mexican with little or no education can get a passport? Have you ever been poor in your life? Have you ever worked with those who are economically disadvantaged? To suggest that they should participate in some lottery with 14 million people is ignoring the fact that they have zero dollars! If I were a young Mexican and my family was starving I would risk the desert crossing and send home some$$$. Would you?


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## citlali

Poor Mexicans do get passports , I have helped many fill out the form as many do not write or read but they do not get a visa, hence the crossing the desert.
I agree the young poor people do not get much help or oportunities to catch up once they drop pout of school. If they live in a town they maybe ableto get some help but for those living in the country there is no hope and no oportunity for most of them. Seguro popular may be ok in cities but it isdismal in the country vey often,
A young friend of mine lives in a village on a dirt road with no good transportation out and the ransportation there is is expensive. He goes to town to get some work 3 to 3 and a half hour from San Cristobal. He may get 250 pesos for the work he sells in town and has to pay 120 pesos to come and go from town. He is very bright but would have to find free lodging in San Cristobal in order to get ahead a little so he continues going back and forth.. His father has a milpa and they eat what they grow. The father gets extra cash from the coffee crop but the coffee in that area is failing and he also gets 500 pesos a month to be on call 24/ for the month to be the first aid nurse for the town... Poverty is hard to imagine and these people are not the worst off..


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## Bobbyb

I am reminded of one of our many trips to southern Mexico. We were staying in our truck camper on a hotel parking lot in Tehauntapec ( Isthmus) as there are no campgrounds. The lot was surrounded by a rock wall. In the morning I could hear voices on the other side of the wall. There was an ox cart with a one bladed plow in the back being pulled by a very large ox. In the cart were 2 adults and a boy of about 12 years. The unhooked the cart and using a crude yoke hooked the plow to the OX. The young boy had a canvas bag over his shoulders. As the Ox made the furrow the boy (who was barefoot) scattered seeds into the crevice. Then using his bare feet he kicked the soil to cover the seeds. I asked what they were planting and it was beans. I knew it had to be beans or corn! We hit the road later that morning and just 500 metres down the road were rich fields being tilled by huge brand new air conditioned John Deere tractors. There was even a John Deere dealer just down the road. Certainly reinforced my understanding that Mexico is a rich/poor country. Does anyone actually believe that boy will get an education of any kind? Will he ever get a real job? The minimum wage in those areas is around 50 pesos. Many of the young men travel North to Sinaloa or Sonora to work in the vegetable and fruit farms. Often they are paid less than minimum wage and usually no Segurro. The smart ones cross into the USA!!!


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## Longford

Ejido land ownership has impeded progress for many small farmers in Mexico. Many children in the rural areas (and many in cities as well) stop going to school early-on in secondaria out of necessity of helping the family work its land, sell goods, crafts, etc. Survival is more important than education, for so many families. 

In many of the poorer areas of the country where children have the burning desire to learn and better themselves, the teachers (such as those in Oaxaca) oftentimes don't show up for classes, or are out on strike and when they're there they're so incompetent it's a miracle that some of the kids make it out of school with basic skills. The lack of education, the providing of substandard education ... helps to continue the cycle of poverty which grips so much of the nation. 

I've been to some of the mountainous communities in Oaxaca where grown men are paid far below the government-mandated minimum wages and they don't protest about it because of threats from whomever it is employing them. You'll find many clinics in the poorest areas which are either understaffed or lack necessary and supplies to be effective. 

No, not the entire country has been abandoned buy the national and state governments ... just a wide swath of Mexico, IMO. 

Expats who move to Mexico with the thought of being protected by a 'safety net' provided by the government ... probably ought to change the type of liquor they were drinking when that thought entered their minds!


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## GARYJ65

Bobbyb said:


> I am reminded of one of our many trips to southern Mexico. We were staying in our truck camper on a hotel parking lot in Tehauntapec ( Isthmus) as there are no campgrounds. The lot was surrounded by a rock wall. In the morning I could hear voices on the other side of the wall. There was an ox cart with a one bladed plow in the back being pulled by a very large ox. In the cart were 2 adults and a boy of about 12 years. The unhooked the cart and using a crude yoke hooked the plow to the OX. The young boy had a canvas bag over his shoulders. As the Ox made the furrow the boy (who was barefoot) scattered seeds into the crevice. Then using his bare feet he kicked the soil to cover the seeds. I asked what they were planting and it was beans. I knew it had to be beans or corn! We hit the road later that morning and just 500 metres down the road were rich fields being tilled by huge brand new air conditioned John Deere tractors. There was even a John Deere dealer just down the road. Certainly reinforced my understanding that Mexico is a rich/poor country. Does anyone actually believe that boy will get an education of any kind? Will he ever get a real job? The minimum wage in those areas is around 50 pesos. Many of the young men travel North to Sinaloa or Sonora to work in the vegetable and fruit farms. Often they are paid less than minimum wage and usually no Segurro. The smart ones cross into the USA!!!


I know many people cross to the US, but not because they are smart, they run out of options, when they get to the US they are treated like animals in most cases. Some of them succeed, most of them don't


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## GARYJ65

Bobbyb said:


> Longford is dead on. There is almost no social safety net in Mexico. Ask the single mothers with multiple babies and no husband if they get any help. Ask the beggars in wheelchairs if they get any help. Why would a Mexican risk his life to cross a desert after paying outrageous fees to some Coyote if life were so great in Mexico?


Because they are poor, ignorant and they don't know any better than that.
They have that expectation; that they can improve their lives if living in the USA, usually they don't.
How can anyone succeed when not knowing the language, when they are ignorants, when their nutritional levels are way below, with no skills at all.
They are treated miserably in the US, underpaid, no social security, most times they get exploited as bests of burden.
It is better now, before they used to have nasty signs
Dreams are just that.


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## buzzbar

Bobbyb said:


> Mexicans do not want to go the USA. They love their country. But with no real social safety net life can be difficult.


Bobbyb, you didn’t grasp the point I was trying to make in my previous post, so I’ll try again. A 2009 landmark Gallup poll found that 165 million adults from across the world said they would move to USA if they had the chance. It was the desired destination of any country in the world by far. We have to assume that this huge number of people wanting to go to the USA includes the rich, poor, young, old, tractor owners, ox cart owners, people from developed countries with advanced social welfare safety nets and people in wheelchairs who get no help. When it comes to migration to USA, both legal and illegal, it’s all about the pull factors, not push. Of course there are exceptions, but the vast majority of people, including Mexicans, are running to, not fleeing from.


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## Bobbyb

gary: Their life while in the USA is probably miserable. Not like the family life they had at home in Mexico. BUT it is all about $$$. They are able to send a lot of money back home to families in Mexico. I have seen figures of $120 billion in 2012. There are small villages with some awesome homes. Built using the $$ they receive from young men working in the USA. Buzzbar: Your last post is simply semantics. Would you call going to a country where you can make the Mexican daily wage in less than an hour running to or fleeing? The difference is subtle and moot. Regardless of the description they are still coming to America.


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## AlanMexicali

Bobbyb said:


> gary: Their life while in the USA is probably miserable. Not like the family life they had at home in Mexico. BUT it is all about $$$. They are able to send a lot of money back home to families in Mexico. I have seen figures of $120 billion in 2012. There are small villages with some awesome homes. Built using the $$ they receive from young men working in the USA. Buzzbar: Your last post is simply semantics. Would you call going to a country where you can make the Mexican daily wage in less than an hour running to or fleeing? The difference is subtle and moot. Regardless of the description they are still coming to America.


My wife seems to think the villages near here are where the bad guys live and build those awesome houses. In fact when we take drives in the country she won´t let me go into some of them because of that. The radio news sometimes reports where kidnappers and drug cartel members are arrested and states they were living/hiding out in some of the small towns and villages usually near San Luis Potosi on the highway to Zacatecas. There used to be many robberies and kidnapping along that highway.

The latest reported news is the head of the Jalisco Nueva Generación cartel lives in one of those small towns in several awesome houses and has more close by in other small towns.


Maybe you are seeing cartel houses not farm workers or mínimum wage workers houses?

â€œEs difÃ*cil creer que las autoridades no supieran dÃ³nde vivÃ*a "El Mencho" â€� - Grupo Milenio

The 120 billion figure is all immigrants sending money out of the US to other countries. Mexicans are estimated as sending more than 23 billion.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ing-120-BILLION-struggling-families-home.HTML


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## Longford

Bobbyb said:


> Their life while in the USA is probably miserable.


Over a period of decades, tens of millions of Mexicans chosen to leave Mexico for the USA ... because for them it was _anyplace but Mexico_ due to their country being unwilling or unable to provide the opportunities they thought were important to live their lives. It's a stunning indictment of Mexico, by Mexicans. 

I do believe there was a national policy started with the election of Vicente Fox, and continued for some time, to get as many Mexicans as possible to leave Mexico for the USA to find work so that they could send billions of US$ back to Mexico to prop-up thousands of communities on the brink of collapse because of failed national policies. I view that program as a form of genocide of an entire generation of Mexicans. Many Mexicans chose the prospect of death, which did actually result in the loss of thousands of lives, rather than live in Mexico. 

You will find many newer homes throughout rural communities in Mexico which were built, or waiting to be finished, with funds send by family members who (mostly, I think) entered the USA illegally. Their thoughts have been to provide something better for their parents or siblings who remained behind and to have a place to retire to (which I think they probably won't do after having lived in the USA). Many of the family members in the USA have sent back money to provide for local town improvements and the national government inaugurated a plan to match the money sent from abroad to make improvements it was unwilling to make on its own and also to pay for schooling, buy clothes for kids, food, etc. 

There's no doubt that the experiences of some of those who went to the USA were or felt they were treated unfairly. The same can be said for immigrants from any of the many other countries who have chosen life in the USA rather than in their "home" countries. And the same can be said for similar peoples who've entered other countries, largely as illegal aliens/lawbreakers.

But if anyone characterizes the experiences and lives of those Mexicans who have chosen the USA over Mexico, entirely as a group, as harsh or brutal or any other harsh description, I'll suggest they don't know many of those folks who've made that journey and are living those lives nor do they know much about life in the USA.


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## Cristobal

I wonder if Longford could substantiate his claim that there was a national policy under Fox for Mexicans to emigrate to the US. Sounds like another "fact" with no proof to back it up.

And perhaps the statement "tens of millions of Mexicans chosen to leave Mexico for the USA" it is simply hyperbole but that number again seems to be an unsubstantiated claim.


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## GARYJ65

Bobbyb said:


> gary: Their life while in the USA is probably miserable. Not like the family life they had at home in Mexico. BUT it is all about $$$. They are able to send a lot of money back home to families in Mexico. I have seen figures of $120 billion in 2012. There are small villages with some awesome homes. Built using the $$ they receive from young men working in the USA. Buzzbar: Your last post is simply semantics. Would you call going to a country where you can make the Mexican daily wage in less than an hour running to or fleeing? The difference is subtle and moot. Regardless of the description they are still coming to America.


I would agree with you if we start talking about some Mexicans that can send money back home, most of them just have a rough time, get discriminated and have miserable lives.
And yes, they still go to the US, same way Africans go to Spain, and middle east people go to Germany, Americans come to Mexico, etc.
Migration is a natural thing in history


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## AlanMexicali

Cristobal said:


> I wonder if Longford could substantiate his claim that there was a national policy under Fox for Mexicans to emigrate to the US. Sounds like another "fact" with no proof to back it up.
> 
> And perhaps the statement "tens of millions of Mexicans chosen to leave Mexico for the USA" it is simply hyperbole but that number again seems to be an unsubstantiated claim.


His whole post is mere speculation and facts are not to get in the way. :heh:


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## GARYJ65

Cristobal said:


> I wonder if Longford could substantiate his claim that there was a national policy under Fox for Mexicans to emigrate to the US. Sounds like another "fact" with no proof to back it up.
> 
> And perhaps the statement "tens of millions of Mexicans chosen to leave Mexico for the USA" it is simply hyperbole but that number again seems to be an unsubstantiated claim.


National policy to emigrate?
Tens of millions?
Those are the stupidest things written today, the day is still young


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## citlali

If you want to see a real migration problem look at Europe no the US.. Right now boat loads of people are coming in. The coyotes buy a wreck and ship people out abadonning them at sea. It is a horror story. Many people drown in mass in the Mediterranean right now. Italy is rescuing a lot of ships but it is a horror story. Then the fun begin, where are these people to live..most of them ar Moslems as well which aggravates the problems. Spain also get container loads of people sometimes alive sometimes dead...Makes the Mexican situation look like a piece of cake.


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## Bobbyb

My mistake on that number.I did read the same article and it is 23 billion. Here is a cut and paste from Wikipedia:

Remittances, or contributions sent by Mexicans living abroad, mostly in the United States, to their families at home in Mexico, are a substantial and growing part of the Mexican economy; they comprised $22.4 billion in 2012.[49] In 2004, they became the tenth largest source of foreign income after oil, industrial exports, manufactured goods, electronics, heavy industry, automobiles, construction, food, and banking & financial services. Remittances are a larger part of the Mexican economy than tourism expenditures and represented 2.1 percent of the nation's Gross Domestic Product.[50]

The growth of remittances have more than doubled since 1997, although they have since decreased somewhat.[51] Recorded remittance transactions exceeded 41 million in 2003, of which 86 percent were made by electronic transfer.[52]

The Mexican government, cognizant of the economic viability of immigrant workers, began issuing an upgraded version of the Matrícula Consular de Alta Seguridad (MACS, High Security Consular Identification), an identity document issued at Mexican consulates abroad. This document is now accepted as a valid identity card in 32 US states, as well as thousands of police agencies, hundreds of cities and counties, as well as banking institutions.[52]

The main states receiving remittances in 2014 were Michoacán, Guanajuato, Jalisco, Mexico and Puebla, which jointly captured 45% of total remittances in that year.[50] Several state governments, with the support of the federal government, have implemented programs to use part of the remittances to finance public works. This program, called Dos por Uno (Two for every one) is designed in a way that for each peso contributed by migrants from their remittances, the state and the federal governments will invest two pesos in building infrastructure at their home communities.[53]

Note that the State and Feds are fully aware of the importance of $$ sent home and DO encourage this. Think about it: If all those foreign workers came home what would they do? There is no work for that many people. There is no money to provide welfare or health care for these people. The country would be in chaos. Does anyone think that the Gov. of Mexico is stupid?? There are more MBA's in the Mexican Gov. than in the USA. Lots of graduates from top notch US Universities. These are smart people. Why worry about looking after your people when you can use them as an export commodity! On the other hand what would happen to the economy of the South west? No one to do landscaping, basic construction, farm work and no maids in the motels!


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## citlali

The cheap labor immigration to the US works for both countries, what would the US do without all the cheap labor in agriculture, construction , food and hospitality industry and garment industry?
I worked for several wineries and I can tell you that it is impossible to find documented labor to pick grapes or work in vineyards . The best grafters with the least rate of failure all come from Michoacan..
The US would have a hell of a time replacing all of these people so please do not look at it as it is in Mexico best interest lo encourage immigration up north. It is in the US best interest to have cheap labor as well and I can tell you for a fact that very little is done to ease that situation . The migra closes their eyes during harvest time and only shows up after everyone is gone. They would call me to make an appointment before showing up...

By the way all our temporary workers paid Social Security, I wonder how many could ever claim it.. They would either use a friend or relative number or a made up number and SS had a lot of unreconciliable numbers but they had the money. After we got busted we were told to check for the SS numbers so a lot of friends of relatives were working an unbelievable number of hours..again the money would still be accepted by SS.


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## Cristobal

Anyone working in the formal economy is paying into SS. and as citali mentioned previously, much of those contributions comes from undocumented workers who will never receive a dime from SS.


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## GARYJ65

Bobbyb said:


> My mistake on that number.I did read the same article and it is 23 billion. Here is a cut and paste from Wikipedia:
> 
> Remittances, or contributions sent by Mexicans living abroad, mostly in the United States, to their families at home in Mexico, are a substantial and growing part of the Mexican economy; they comprised $22.4 billion in 2012.[49] In 2004, they became the tenth largest source of foreign income after oil, industrial exports, manufactured goods, electronics, heavy industry, automobiles, construction, food, and banking & financial services. Remittances are a larger part of the Mexican economy than tourism expenditures and represented 2.1 percent of the nation's Gross Domestic Product.[50]
> 
> The growth of remittances have more than doubled since 1997, although they have since decreased somewhat.[51] Recorded remittance transactions exceeded 41 million in 2003, of which 86 percent were made by electronic transfer.[52]
> 
> The Mexican government, cognizant of the economic viability of immigrant workers, began issuing an upgraded version of the Matrícula Consular de Alta Seguridad (MACS, High Security Consular Identification), an identity document issued at Mexican consulates abroad. This document is now accepted as a valid identity card in 32 US states, as well as thousands of police agencies, hundreds of cities and counties, as well as banking institutions.[52]
> 
> The main states receiving remittances in 2014 were Michoacán, Guanajuato, Jalisco, Mexico and Puebla, which jointly captured 45% of total remittances in that year.[50] Several state governments, with the support of the federal government, have implemented programs to use part of the remittances to finance public works. This program, called Dos por Uno (Two for every one) is designed in a way that for each peso contributed by migrants from their remittances, the state and the federal governments will invest two pesos in building infrastructure at their home communities.[53]
> 
> Note that the State and Feds are fully aware of the importance of $$ sent home and DO encourage this. Think about it: If all those foreign workers came home what would they do? There is no work for that many people. There is no money to provide welfare or health care for these people. The country would be in chaos. Does anyone think that the Gov. of Mexico is stupid?? There are more MBA's in the Mexican Gov. than in the USA. Lots of graduates from top notch US Universities. These are smart people. Why worry about looking after your people when you can use them as an export commodity! On the other hand what would happen to the economy of the South west? No one to do landscaping, basic construction, farm work and no maids in the motels!


Same thing as if all Americans, British, etc. who work abroad if they come back home, what would they do?
Or...is it a requisite to be extremely poor in order to participate in this immigrant poll?


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## lagoloo

I hate to jump into a perfectly good kerfuffle over how bad things are for the Mexican poor and why everybody wants to go to the U.S., but the original question was about why the Mexican government would raise the bar on what it takes for people from outside Mexico to come and live here legally.

Let's start with something we all have to deal with: medical issues. Some people can't get adequate medical insurance at all in the U.S. because of pre-existing conditions or can't find affordable health insurance. Paying out of pocket in the U.S. with its highest costs anywhere in the world (statistics easily found per Senor Google) is just about impossible to manage. A major illness would result in bankruptcy. Even Medicare coverage doesn't cover all the costs. Whether the AHC (Obamacare) works to solve this is not yet known.

In Mexico, if someone wants to sign up for Seguro Popular or IMSS, it's affordable, but for every foreigner who does so, a burden is added to the national budget. The last thing the Mexican government needs is an influx of poor people who can't afford private medical insurance and who aren't going to be hiring maids and gardeners or contributing to the economy other than by buying the necessities. It makes sense to raise the income bar. In fact, it's one of the lowest immigrant requirements in first world countries. Check on Canada's if you doubt that. 

Meanwhile, that "safety net" in the U.S. seems to be shrinking to the point where inflation is making so many holes in it that falling through into homelessness and soup kitchen life is a reality for many. I don't have accurate statistics on that one, but recall reading that it's approaching the level of the Great Depression of long ago. 

Maybe we could wander back to the original question under discussion, just for the heck of it?
lane:


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## citlali

So Gringal is Seguro Popular or IMSS and DIF better for you than Medicare?


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## Isla Verde

lagoloo said:


> I hate to jump into a perfectly good kerfuffle over how bad things are for the Mexican poor and why everybody wants to go to the U.S., but the original question was about why the Mexican government would raise the bar on what it takes for people from outside Mexico to come and live here legally.
> 
> Let's start with something we all have to deal with: medical issues. Some people can't get adequate medical insurance at all in the U.S. because of pre-existing conditions or can't find affordable health insurance. Paying out of pocket in the U.S. with its highest costs anywhere in the world (statistics easily found per Senor Google) is just about impossible to manage. A major illness would result in bankruptcy. Even Medicare coverage doesn't cover all the costs. Whether the AHC (Obamacare) works to solve this is not yet known.
> 
> In Mexico, if someone wants to sign up for Seguro Popular or IMSS, it's affordable, but for every foreigner who does so, a burden is added to the national budget. The last thing the Mexican government needs is an influx of poor people who can't afford private medical insurance and who aren't going to be hiring maids and gardeners or contributing to the economy other than by buying the necessities. It makes sense to raise the income bar. In fact, it's one of the lowest immigrant requirements in first world countries. Check on Canada's if you doubt that.
> 
> Meanwhile, that "safety net" in the U.S. seems to be shrinking to the point where inflation is making so many holes in it that falling through into homelessness and soup kitchen life is a reality for many. I don't have accurate statistics on that one, but recall reading that it's approaching the level of the Great Depression of long ago.
> 
> Maybe we could wander back to the original question under discussion, just for the heck of it?
> lane:


Great idea! :focus:


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## lagoloo

Re Citlali's question: We signed up for IMSS "for emergencies" but have never used it and hope we won't need to. Therefore, I cannot make a personal comparison.

Fortunately (fingers and toes crossed) we both are healthy enough that we seldom need medical care and when we do, we pay out of pocket. We canceled Part B when we moved here and the result is a "medical savings account" substantial enough to cover just about anything.

We both had very bad experiences under Medicare in the states, right up to life threatening due to careless medical personnel, mis-diagnoses and downright greedy docs who would gladly have done unnecessary orthopedic surgery. IMO, it's a scandal on the grand scale that it's the highest cost in the first world while the care level is rated around #23, according to Senor Google's library.

For what it's worth, we both pay a lot of attention to our lifestyle choices. It's paid off. Deep fried anything has been off the menu for years, along with fast food in general. We're not vegetarian, but we are not great supporters of the beef industry, either. I'm a big time label reader, too.

I am disheartened to learn how unhealthy seniors are in the U.S.; that most are on several permanent medications; that diabetes is rampant; that obesity is endemic. Something is very wrong with the picture where few people don't get enough to eat and most are well sheltered.


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## kcowan

lagoloo said:


> ...I am disheartened to learn how unhealthy seniors are in the U.S.; that most are on several permanent medications; that diabetes is rampant; that obesity is endemic. Something is very wrong with the picture where few people don't get enough to eat and most are well sheltered.


That is the inevitable outcome of a rampantly capitalist society where the unhealthy food lobby and the big Pharma lobby influence the government. Make them sick and then drug them.

Then pollute their air and their water for commercial gains. Look at mainland China to see this strategy in its formative stages.


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## lagoloo

kcowan said:


> That is the inevitable outcome of a rampantly capitalist society where the unhealthy food lobby and the big Pharma lobby influence the government. Make them sick and then drug them.
> 
> Then pollute their air and their water for commercial gains. Look at mainland China to see this strategy in its formative stages.


You have an excellent point, but one which most shoppers ignore in favor of the advertisers' influence. 
For a personal favorite example of powerful lobbying, wine is not classified as a "food item" and therefore is exempt from labeling requirements such as those for fruit juice.
Meanwhile, millions of gallons of it go down the same human throats. 

On the other hand, China is supposedly NOT operating under the Capitalist systeM, so ......
GO FIGURE !!


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## citlali

I do not know about the US but I just come back from France where I spent 5 weeks with old folks and I have not met one who is not taking permanent , daily medecine. most people I met were between 85 and 102, they all had health problems some more serious than others so if you live long enough no mater how well you live do not have great hopes of not taking medecine one day or another.
Health problems can come with young age but usually are there to stay when you get old.

My mother lead an active healthy life, cooks everything from sratch cleans and does her own garden that is over 500 meters, still drives and just decided at age 94 that she had enough and moved to a retirement community. She takes a bunch of medecine daily.
Her brother and sister respectively 95 and 92 are in worst shape and moved to an assisted care home they also take plenty of medecine.
I visited both my mother and aunt and uncle and met many seniors between age 85 and 102 and did not meet one who was not taking medecine so the US old folks are not alone and if we live long enough we will probably be in the same situation like it or not. Do not kid yourself with healthy living, you are only pushing back the time when you will go through the same thing,..

One thing I learned there is that everyone was paying according to what they could afford and when their money ran out and their children could not pay the State was taking over so everyone was assured of having a roof over their head, food on the table and medecine and care which is a whole lot more than people here or in the US can count on.

By the way I bought some Nexium in Paris for a friend from Chiapas and it was half the price it is in Mexico . It is interesting to see that in a place where there are lots of poor people the medecine is still that expensive. Obviously something is off somewhere.


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## lagoloo

I'll worry about medications if I'm lucky enough to survive to the ages you're speaking of. (chuckle)

My own parents and grandparents lived long lives and avoided doctors and their dubious advice. Maybe it was the daily breakfast of eggs, bacon, buttered toast with cream and sugar in coffee, or maybe they just ate an apple a day. Or were just lucky. My dad was an confirmed health nut who walked 8 miles a day in his eighties. Dropped dead of a pulmonary embolism. Way to go, IMO. I should be so lucky.

I once listened to a doc on the radio who was a down to earth type. Several things that stuck in my memory: (1) Doctors tend to not feel they've done right by their patient if they don't send them home with a prescription. (2) Pain is inevitable. Most pain meds such as those to reduce inflammation of the joints in older people do much more harm than good to their bodies in general.

The corollary to this is that when someone enters assisted living or visits the doc for pain, they will be medicated by well meaning people. Whether this is good or bad is a matter of opinion and personal choice.

On the lighter side: If you wind up in a hospital, you will no doubt be handed a sleeping pill at eventide. Then, they will awaken you some hours later to check your vitals. Maybe more than once. Go figure.


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## kcowan

My Dad lived to 95 and never took anything stronger than aspirin and that was to mitigate the effects of his tendency to have tiny strokes. The last three days he had plenty of morphine though.

A younger friend of mine is taking 22 pills a day, courtesy of the VA. He lives in PV.


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## Isla Verde

My family has a history of high cholesterol and associated cardiac problems, so I am quite happy to take Vytorin a couple of days a week to keep my bad cholesterol numbers below 200. Many years ago my beloved Bubbe Ostroff died from a heart attack at the age of 64. We were told she had hardening of the arteries, which is what brought the attack on right after successful surgery for another problem. If meds like Vytorin had been available back in the 1960s, no doubt she would have enjoyed a much longer, and healthier, life.


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## lagoloo

kcowan said:


> My Dad lived to 95 and never took anything stronger than aspirin and that was to mitigate the effects of his tendency to have tiny strokes. The last three days he had plenty of morphine though.
> 
> A younger friend of mine is taking 22 pills a day, courtesy of the VA. He lives in PV.


Morphine is good medicine when things are going to go badly no matter what.
My aunt with pancreatic cancer was mighty grateful for the "drip" or "patch" during those last few months past her 96th, and last, birthday. That meant that my birthday visit to her across the country was with a woman who was able to be lucid and as she put it "more or less" in little pain.


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## Bobbyb

I had a surprise 3 weeks ago when I had a Heart Attack. 2 stents and 2 more to go. But fortunately I am otherwise healthy and feel just great. I am not looking forward to our return to Mexico in the fall. It is hard enough finding heart friendly food in Canada but near impossible in Mexico. The salt and sugar contents on anything in Mexico are twice what we use NOB. Eating at home is easy but restaurants will be difficult. Even finding out the nutrition information online for restaurants is difficult. Mexican nutrition labels are sneaky. Bought some off brand small yoghurt once. I think it was 125 grams. The serving size was 90 grams!!!!


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## Cristobal

And then my father, who died last year from complications of Alzheimers, during the last 2 weeks of his life under hospice care, was given morphine orally every several hours. There was really no way to tell if he was in any kind of pain but it was administered "just in case". Personally, I wish they would have just given it to him in one big dose and ended what was really a life without existence.


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## lagoloo

Cristobal said:


> And then my father, who died last year from complications of Alzheimers, during the last 2 weeks of his life under hospice care, was given morphine orally every several hours. There was really no way to tell if he was in any kind of pain but it was administered "just in case". Personally, I wish they would have just given it to him in one big dose and ended what was really a life without existence.


I'd like to have the right to pull my own plug if living ceases to be worth it. The legal and ethical issues involved are legion, however.

For instance: Posit the typical Alzheimers patient, who is too unaware to make a thoughtful decision to pull his/her own plug. Let's further suggest the patient has a bunch of money to will his heirs, and therein lies the conundrum.

:juggle:


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## GARYJ65

Social safety in Mexico
Focus, yeah, right


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> Social safety in Mexico
> Focus, yeah, right


I have a safety net in Mexico, my two US pensions!


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## buzzbar

lagoloo said:


> I'd like to have the right to pull my own plug


Yep, agree with Gary. Usually the way when someone stifles a developing, mature discussion with a boring call for "return to topic". They're often the first to jump in with something totally unconnected.


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## Longford

lagoloo said:


> I am disheartened to learn how unhealthy seniors are in the U.S.; that most are on several permanent medications; that diabetes is rampant; that obesity is endemic. Something is very wrong with the picture where few people don't get enough to eat and most are well sheltered.


Are you equally disturbed how unhealthy Mexican seniors are, or that so many are on permanent medications, or that diabetes is the second most cause of death in Mexico because Mexico is far fatter nation than even the USA? Yes, it's a terrible thing that sop many Mexicans don't have enough to eat and that so many have fled Mexico looking for money to feed themselves and their families. Yes, it's shameful ... no matter the nation.


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## Longford

lagoloo said:


> We both had very bad experiences under Medicare in the states, right up to life threatening due to careless medical personnel, mis-diagnoses and downright greedy docs who would gladly have done unnecessary orthopedic surgery. IMO, it's a scandal on the grand scale that it's the highest cost in the first world while the care level is rated around #23, according to Senor Google's library


Yes, blame the care providers. Who chose your care provider? Was it someone, your primary care physician who had treated you for a long period of time who made the errors in judgment and who didn't monitor your care ... or did you not pay close attention to who you placed your trust with? My observation of online whining about health care in the USA has been that the people who complain don't make the right choices. It's easy to pass the buck. I don't know if the fault lies with you, or the caregivers. Only you know that, none of us reading the comments.


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## Longford

Regarding the whines about people taking medications: yes, deny them their choices ... and let them die. A rather callous rhetoric from uncaring, unknowing persons IMO


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## Longford

buzzbar said:


> Yep, agree with Gary. Usually the way when someone stifles a developing, mature discussion with a boring call for "return to topic". They're often the first to jump in with something totally unconnected.


My observation on this forum has been that when someone doesn't like what's being discussed they sometimes call for a "Back to Topic" or start talking about life in the USA ... because they're either uncomfortable talking about Mexico, or they have nothing constructive to add to a discussion.


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## lagoloo

Longford said:


> Are you equally disturbed how unhealthy Mexican seniors are, or that so many are on permanent medications, or that diabetes is the second most cause of death in Mexico because Mexico is far fatter nation than even the USA? Yes, it's a terrible thing that sop many Mexicans don't have enough to eat and that so many have fled Mexico looking for money to feed themselves and their families. Yes, it's shameful ... no matter the nation.


My point was that seniors in a *wealthy nation* are in terrible shape. WHY? Who is dropping the ball?

And why are you asking if I am "equally disturbed" etc., which is another matter entirely?


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## AlanMexicali

http://www.sedesol.gob.mx/es/SEDESOL/SEDESOL

Google Translation: 

Federal Secretaría de Desarrollo Social SEDESOL, does have welfare payments [cash] available but don´t compare it to NOB welfare programs. They have help available for the poor without paymens of cash also. 

DIF has free food and seeds and help available to the poor also, called marginalized citizens/families here. Client Validation "Today more than ever, the family must be our area of peace, support, training, and welfare. In the National DIF, we manage to drive public policies that promote social welfare family integration. Also, we promote actions to improve the situation of vulnerable children, adolescents, the elderly and people with disabilities."

"Standardizes operation SEDESOL social programs
No. 133 Mexico City, to June 9, 2015
• From Monday windows and tables to the public in the delegations of dependence and its sectored and they decentralized reopened.

• Invite people to be careful in each delegation to meet the scheduling for delivery of resources that by law they are entitled.

The Ministry of Social Development (SEDESOL) normalized its activities throughout the country and thus the operation of social programs, especially those of economic transfers, as Prospera, Social Inclusion Program; Board Aging and Life Insurance for heads of households, since it concluded its Electoral Shield Program 2014-2015.

Since last Monday, June 8 began operating the windows and tables to the public in the 32 delegations of SEDESOL as well as offices DICONSA, Liconsa and Prosper, Social Inclusion Program.

We also began to program the scheduling of payments economic beneficiaries for the fourth two months of the year (July-August) resources, since the for the third two months (May-June) was paid adelantadamente during the month of April.

The beneficiaries of social programs should approach the delegation for your home for dates of payment procedures, high and low, checking life and personal data updates.

Pension Program for Older Adults, serves adults age 65 or older and have nationwide coverage. And beneficiaries receive the financial support of 580 pesos monthly installments of 1,160 pesos every two months; also they involved in growth groups and information sessions on health issues and gain easier access to services and supports institutions such as the Inapam, besides those offering productive and occupational activities.


Life Insurance Program for Heads of Household provides sons and daughters in a state of maternal orphans up to 23 years (one day before the age of 24 years) financial support ranging from $ 315 to $ 1'942 pesos to be delivered every two months, with the aim of encouraging the entry and / or school attendance, with national coverage to 32 states, and almost 2,500 municipalities.

This, by granting to female heads of household, on condition of social vulnerability, Life Insurance, which helps to extend social security to protect the socio-economic welfare of women in situation of need or poverty."


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## Cristobal

In Mexico, employers, for the most part, are required by law to enroll their employees on the IMSS rolls. Disregarding for the time being compliance, I wonder if our esteemed poster from Chicago, if he should be so considerate and without the aid of researching the matter on the internet or by asking his friends in the DF, could explain the benefits the employees are entitled to? Could he also explain to the readership what the obligations of the employee are concerning their contributions? Then we could make an educated assessment of the cost vs benefit enjoyed by a great deal of Mexicans covered by IMSS insurance. Then for those who so desire, could better compare at least one large portion of the Mexican population and what safety net they receive to what their peers in the US receive under the legal terms of their employment.


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## Longford

lagoloo said:


> And why are you asking if I am "equally disturbed" etc., which is another matter entirely?


"disheartened" is the word I should have, and meant to use.


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## AlanMexicali

Cristobal said:


> In Mexico, employers, for the most part, are required by law to enroll their employees on the IMSS rolls. Disregarding for the time being compliance, I wonder if our esteemed poster from Chicago, if he should be so considerate and without the aid of researching the matter on the internet or by asking his friends in the DF, could explain the benefits the employees are entitled to? Could he also explain to the readership what the obligations of the employee are concerning their contributions? Then we could make an educated assessment of the cost vs benefit enjoyed by a great deal of Mexicans covered by IMSS insurance. Then for those who so desire, could better compare at least one large portion of the Mexican population and what safety net they receive to what their peers in the US receive under the legal terms of their employment.


IMSS also has a pension payment [cash] when retiring that most Expats never hear about. The health insurance and pension payments are made possible by the employer contributing to the IMSS on a regular basis per employee. The retired employee keeps the health coverage for himself and spouse without further payments and if he/she precedes the spouse she/he keeps the health insurance without further payments. I don´t know about the pension payment in that case.


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## RVGRINGO

Ah, your first stents are an adventure. I am up to 8; 2 in the USA and 4, then 2 more in Guadalajara. I found eating in Mexico easier and healthier than here in Tucson, where we just returned for VA and Medicare. True, you must be careful in restaurants, but everything else is easier.
Take care of yourself and try to avoid stress of all kinds.


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## Isla Verde

I have just deleted several messages in this thread because they levied personal attacks on other forum members. So play nice, guys, or infractions will be given!


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## Bobbyb

Thanks RV ******: I try to avoid stress. Just have to try harder. I will be fine. I feel great and haven't had to use the Nitro once!


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## Bobbyb

Alan Mexicali: Did someone inject you with Mexico Venum ? Do you actually believe all that stuff from DIF and IMSSS? In order to get anything from DIF you have to beg. And then you get a $2.00 US Dispensa. Do you have any Mexican friends who live below the poverty line? Do you know Mexicans who work for an employer getting way over the minimum wage but Seguro is paid for the minimum? I do? Do you now any Mexicans that get hired for 6 month contracts and then are laid off to avoid paying severance. I do. Do you know any wealthy Mexicans who have housekeepers and gardeners that sign a form saying they have quit on their own accord? They sign this undated form the day they are hired. I do. You need to get out into the real world. Searching the net for those documents is a waste of your time. Pure fiction. For many years I was in charge of a small charity in our Pueblo. We raised over $10,000 from the Gringos and made up 40 plus lb Dispensas for the needy at Christmas time. I have never seen such poverty. Single mothers with 4 children, no furniture, no indoor plumbing and no food. Neighbors have contacted DIF to no avail. A mother with 4 severely challenged children. Apparently her husband did drugs and she drank. Probably a severe form of FAS. They had one wheelchair for 3 that could not walk! Where was DIF and their generosity. Can you tell me how a senior survives on 500 pesos a month? Most do not have any other income. This is not a social safety net. It is a joke!


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## lagoloo

Longford said:


> Yes, blame the care providers. Who chose your care provider? Was it someone, your primary care physician who had treated you for a long period of time who made the errors in judgment and who didn't monitor your care ... or did you not pay close attention to who you placed your trust with? My observation of online whining about health care in the USA has been that the people who complain don't make the right choices. It's easy to pass the buck. I don't know if the fault lies with you, or the caregivers. Only you know that, none of us reading the comments.


I guess you aren't aware of how Medicare, HMO'S and the assignments work. The patient has no choice about primary care doctors. The HMO runs the show. The primary care doctor selects the specialists. The specialist makes decisions. I had very little time with my primary care doctor; not enough to have a trust issue. And yes, when the orthopedic surgeon wanted to operate, I did ask for a second opinion and learned that the surgery was unnecessary. And so on.
Now, what's with the hostility and the assumptions? I have no need to tell false stories about the care I received in the U.S.:basically, it leaves much to be desired for Medicare recipients, especially those who are covered in HMO's. That's all.

And BTW: Yes, I am "disheartened" about what I see happening in Mexico regarding health. Who would you say is responsible for the situation or for correcting it?


----------



## lagoloo

I'd like to add that in no way would I like to see seniors, anywhere, deprived of necessary medications and just "let them die". The word is "necessary".


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## Longford

lagoloo said:


> I guess you aren't aware of how Medicare, HMO'S and the assignments work. The patient has no choice about primary care doctors.


I have the very same primary care physician now, under Medicare coverage, as I had the 15 years previous. 



> Now, what's with the hostility and the assumptions?


I suppose I should be asking you that question. 



> And BTW: Yes, I am "disheartened" about what I see happening in Mexico regarding health. Who would you say is responsible for the situation or for correcting it?


I have no suggestion for curing Mexico's problem with obesity, diabetes, etc. But, yes, the focus of the discussion is Mexico, not what may or not happen in any other country.


----------



## lagoloo

Longford said:


> I have the very same primary care physician now, under Medicare coverage, as I had the 15 years previous.
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose I should be asking you that question.
> 
> 
> 
> I have no suggestion for curing Mexico's problem with obesity, diabetes, etc. But, yes, the focus of the discussion is Mexico, not what may or not happen in any other country.


In reply to the first sentence, were you in an HMO? As I mentioned before, I had just become eligible for Medicare and was assigned to a primary care doctor. I had no list to choose from.

As for the second matter, since we are not talking face to face, I had the impression that you were accusing me of unwarranted accusations against my U.S. doctors and/or the Medicare program. Apologies if I took it wrong, along with the suggestion that I don't care as much about Mexican elders and their health. If it were up to me, they wouldn't be selling sweets and Coca Cola in front of the school yards, but....it isn't. Kids get obese and diabetic and the Coca Cola company's profits soar.

I agree that the topic should have stayed focused on the safety net in Mexico rather than letting thread wander take over. I take responsibility for my part in it, but Big Pharma is one of my pet peeves. Even after it's shown that the benefits of certain pricey drugs are minimal, they still want to put the entire population on them. Yuck.


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## Isla Verde

Again, I would like to remind all forum members to keep their tempers under control when posting. I thank you for your cooperation.


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## GARYJ65

When talking about overweight, Mexico and the US have about the same problem
Still, in Mexico I don't see humongously large people, yet

http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/Obesity-Update-2014.pdf


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## GARYJ65

World's Fattest Countries - Forbes


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## michmex

*In Defense of HMO's*



lagoloo said:


> In reply to the first sentence, were you in an HMO? As I mentioned before, I had just become eligible for Medicare and was assigned to a primary care doctor. I had no list to choose from.



I have belonged to 3 separate HMO's over a period of 18 years and have always been able to choose from a long list o PCP's (Primary Care Physician) )and have never had a problem when I wanted to make a change. I have never had a problem seeing the specialist I wanted to see even if a referral was needed (my old HMO's no longer require referrals). Likewise I have had a wide choice of hospitals to choose from. The only issue I have ever had is with their drug formularies and step therapies. Only once was a test my doctor wanted not covered.

Everything depends on your geographic area and the availability of HMO's. Better coverage/patient care seems to be associated with the local or regional HMO's rather than the ones with national reach. Now that I am covered under Medicare A-B with a medigap policy I actually miss my old HMO's.


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## AlanMexicali

Mexico boosts housing subsidy by a third despite budget cuts | Reuters


"Mexico's finance ministry said on Friday it would raise a subsidy for home purchases by 32 percent to 11.135 billion pesos ($723 million) to support homeownership for poor families despite budget cuts unveiled earlier this year.

The original program, approved as part of the 2015 federal budget, allotted just 8.435 billion pesos for the subsidy.

The additional 2.7 billion pesos will be channeled to low income families, and directed mostly to financing new homes, deputy finance minister Fernando Aportela said."


I guess Bobby doesn´t know about what type of social welfare is available in Mexico but some do and take advantage of it as they are possibly in a better área or have the option to get a job in a better área but possibly need to be more educated and not stuck where they are. Working is the key to survival here and being responsible for paying your way to be at least be a home owner when retiring. People who don´t work in other countries might never be home owners either unless inherited. In Mexico if you work you can be a home owner if in the right location.


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## lagoloo

There in nothing intrinsically wrong with HMO's. It depends entirely on the regional availability of doctors and the hospitals they use. Unfortunately, some areas are classified as "rural" and the doctors are not as well compensated; therefore, the choices are limited. The local hospital in my area was the only choice available. 

However, the Medicare system has saved many people from personal bankruptcy due to the cost of illness. Many people started seeing doctors on a regular basis once they had coverage and many lives were saved as a result.
In Mexico, the national health care option......Seguro Popular.......is available to all and has been of great benefit to the populace. It has its problems, but is far better than nothing at all.

Depending on our income, we can choose our home, our car, our level of comfort and many other things, but we can't choose whether or not to have a burst appendix or other health problem requiring surgery and hospitalization. That should be a high priority in any nation: an essential part of any "safety net".


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## AlanMexicali

lagoloo said:


> There in nothing intrinsically wrong with HMO's. It depends entirely on the regional availability of doctors and the hospitals they use. Unfortunately, some areas are classified as "rural" and the doctors are not as well compensated; therefore, the choices are limited. The local hospital in my area was the only choice available.
> 
> However, the Medicare system has saved many people from personal bankruptcy due to the cost of illness. Many people started seeing doctors on a regular basis once they had coverage and many lives were saved as a result.
> In Mexico, the national health care option......Seguro Popular.......is available to all and has been of great benefit to the populace. It has its problems, but is far better than nothing at all.
> 
> Depending on our income, we can choose our home, our car, our level of comfort and many other things, but we can't choose whether or not to have a burst appendix or other health problem requiring surgery and hospitalization. That should be a high priority in any nation: an essential part of any "safety net".


I like your take on "Saftey Net". Medical care is part of it whether the other 2 posters agree with that or not. 

They seem to be stuck only on money given out like NOB.

One of the main reasons, and humanitarian reasons, example, can´t have people freezing to death in winter etc. the money is given out is to keep crime down, and help secure the population from it. IMO


----------



## coondawg

TundraGreen said:


> I don't know why they have raised the limits. But the Mexican social safety net is better than the US social safety net in some ways, medical in particular.


Actually, TG, I would say that is your opinion, not shared by everyone who posts here. In our situation ( my Mexican wife and I), we find that when we have anything requiring more than a simple doctor's visit, we go NOB to specialists there, after too many poor doctors, treatments, and facilities SOB. That is our experience, YMMD. I would put our NOB doctors, labs, hospitals, etc., that we have used up against any of those you have used SOB, any day. And, our meds NOB are certainly much cheaper than SOB. But, we check out things like intelligent people should, so no surprises come our way NOB. We check SOB, but word of mouth here is not very reliable, in some things, and the internet does very little to help here. So, our social safety net is much better NOB in most ways than we find SOB. YMMD.


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## lagoloo

coondawg said:


> Actually, TG, I would say that is your opinion, not shared by everyone who posts here. In our situation ( my Mexican wife and I), we find that when we have anything requiring more than a simple doctor's visit, we go NOB to specialists there, after too many poor doctors, treatments, and facilities SOB. That is our experience, YMMD. I would put our NOB doctors, labs, hospitals, etc., that we have used up against any of those you have used SOB, any day. And, our meds NOB are certainly much cheaper than SOB. But, we check out things like intelligent people should, so no surprises come our way NOB. We check SOB, but word of mouth here is not very reliable, in some things, and the internet does very little to help here. So, our social safety net is much better NOB in most ways than we find SOB. YMMD.


I won't quibble about which country offers the best care. As in all things, opinions differ.
However, it appears that if you are able to travel NOB for specialists, you aren't using a "safety net", but rather, your own resources to cover the expense. The travel costs alone would be beyond the reach of most.


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## Longford

lagoloo said:


> I won't quibble about which country offers the best care. As in all things, opinions differ.
> However, it appears that if you are able to travel NOB for specialists, you aren't using a "safety net", but rather, your own resources to cover the expense. The travel costs alone would be beyond the reach of most.


I've known of many expats living in Mexico who, when a serious medical condition arises, travel NOB for care. I don't think it's as unusual as some may think. The comfort level expats will have in Mexico when serious health issues arise depends in large part on the expat's ability to communicate/understand in Spanish. And the comfort level will also depend upon where in Mexico the expat is living. Mexico City, Monterrey and Guadalajara ... there are excellent medical resources available. However, the further afield the expat goes the level of competency/care can diminish.


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## 899289

Can't speak for all of Mexico or even all of Oaxaca but here in the valley where we live I don't see a whole lot of safety netting going on. Even many of the poorest beg and borrow to avoid going to the local clinic (Seguro Popular) for major medical problems. That's not to say the hospital isn't used. But it's used as last resort. Folks with money or those able to obtain money go to private hospitals. I've seen cases where family members working in the US mail money home. 

Two hundred pesos a day is an average wage here. Some make more some make less. This is an agricultural area. For a family with kids in school you have to be very creative. Kids that live away from schools pay their own transportation say twenty pesos a day. They pay for their own meals say another twenty pesos a day. Parents fit the bill for uniforms. Books and notebooks must be purchased. Some classes require Internet research. For kids from villages it often means extra trips to towns. I've heard of programs that do assist families financially but the amount is very little. Some families just can't afford to send their kids to school past elementary. Unlike America, kids here can work. For that reason children that refuse to study are removed by parents and put to work. Some of these dropouts run wild but many find work. 

Someone made the comment that immigration was a pull factor only. I disagree. I think here in Mexico it's definitely a push pull factor. The push factor is the inability to make enough money to live on or better their financial position. It's difficult to build a home, buy a used car, buy land to work, and furnish a home with the simplest items on local wages. 

I read a thread about someone asking advice about driving an RV in Mexico. I can't imagine stepping out of motor home and asking directions. I suppose it boils done to your reason for being in Mexico but if it's to become friendly with locals I see it as a very big barrier. This is only my perspective and I'm certainly not saying no one should RV in Mexico but I sure as hell wouldn't (can I say hell?). My point of this paragraph goes back to the safety net question. Believing that there is very little to none I go out of my way to appear like the people I live around. That can only be done to a point. We've had people come into our home (especially from far out villages) and are speechless. Our saving grace is that our home is an old adobe structure and most of the furnishings are used. Still the difference between our homes is like night and day especially for those that have never been to the states. 

If there were safety nets there wouldn't be the need to immigrate to the US. We have a lot of friends from Oaxaca in America. None of them went just to buy a new car or luxury items. They crossed to earn money to buy a home here or land.


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## citlali

yes the poorer the area and the more people you meet who have lived in the US. In the extended family of our Oaxaca friends, I would say 80% of all the young men have been to the States in Southern California. They stay there a few years until they earn enough money to strt a business or build a house or buy a taxi and so on. Teotitlan is I believe one of the wealthier indigenous village and still many of the young people go to the States to get a step ahead. Outside of weaving there is not a wole lot of things to do so the young men leave and send money home to their families . Many of the houses there are not lived in all year round and belong to people who are working in the States.
I remember being at a large fiesta there and all the young men were discussing their crossing, their coyotes etc..it is just part of life, most of them go there to earn more money and come back but still it is just discussed like if going to the States for a while was just a normal thing to do.


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## GARYJ65

> Someone made the comment that immigration was a pull factor only. I disagree. I think here in Mexico it's definitely a push pull factor. The push factor is the inability to make enough money to live on or better their financial position. It's difficult to build a home, buy a used car, buy land to work, and furnish a home with the simplest items on local wages.


I would definitely disagree with this

Perhaps that is true where you live, in Oaxaca, the second poorest state in Mexico
And some other places, but I am a Mexican, I can have a more than decent home, buy cars, furnish my house with nice items,make much more than the minimum wage. I know MANY other Mexicans who are in the same position and even MUCH better. 
Local wages mean nothing to many people, including me, and I am not a crooked politician.


Mexican problem is much more complex that that. It involves education, culture, politics, interests of many people who have the political and social power.

We have a very large Country, vast shorelines, weather ranges from nice to extremely nice, we never have to shovel snow...

If the right conditions were given, this could be a very productive Country. Something that is far from happening.
But Mexico is not pushing anyone away, the one that stays, study and work hard have all the opportunities to make something out of it, in our own Country, without being taken as beasts of burden, discriminated, and longing for our nation. 

Many Mexicans don't want to go abroad for that, work like mules, and in the best case scenario, make some money, get fat as a hog, wear a silly baseball cap and send money to Mexico.

Once again, we may have as many opinions as we may write here, in an internet forum, at a nice cafe, in a newspaper, but we are not solving anything and we will still be far from understanding what the real solution is. 

If anyone here have the key, please, don't be selfish and give it to the whole world.


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## GARYJ65

citlali said:


> yes the poorer the area and the more people you meet who have lived in the US. In the extended family of our Oaxaca friends, I would say 80% of all the young men have been to the States in Southern California. They stay there a few years until they earn enough money to strt a business or build a house or buy a taxi and so on. Teotitlan is I believe one of the wealthier indigenous village and still many of the young people go to the States to get a step ahead. Outside of weaving there is not a wole lot of things to do so the young men leave and send money home to their families . Many of the houses there are not lived in all year round and belong to people who are working in the States.
> I remember being at a large fiesta there and all the young men were discussing their crossing, their coyotes etc..it is just part of life, most of them go there to earn more money and come back but still it is just discussed like if going to the States for a while was just a normal thing to do.


If we are talking about the poorest people, I agree.
That is a way of life for most. Some others prefer to remain in Mexico, as poor people


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## Longford

Everette said:


> If there were safety nets there wouldn't be the need to immigrate to the US. We have a lot of friends from Oaxaca in America. None of them went just to buy a new car or luxury items. They crossed to earn money to buy a home here or land.


The quote, below, is from a year-old survey in Mexico ... but it's findings aren't too much different than I recall reading in years prior ... and it provides some insight into the thinking of the group of Mexicans being interviewed:



> The poll also finds that as the immigration debate rages on in the U.S., a plurality of Mexicans (44%) believe life is better north of the border for those who migrated from Mexico. And roughly a third (34%) still say they would move to the U.S. if they had the opportunity, including 17% of Mexicans who would do so without authorization.


Source: Third of Mexicans would migrate to U.S., survey finds - CNN.com

34% equates to about 40,000,000 Mexicans who it's suggested would leave Mexico to live in the USA, given the opportunity. 40 million


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## GARYJ65

If 34 % of Mexicans would want to leave, NOTHING could stop them.


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## citlali

Ys I was talking about poor people. I know well off people too and they travel to Europe to Asia and to the States. They also speak English and French fluently and these people may go shopping to the States but I do not see that they would be better off in the States. They do send their kids to good universities in the States and Europe they have the right visas and can come and go as they please..no question about that.


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## kcowan

How does anyone explain that most of the refugees at the US border are from countries south of Mexico these days? I used to run a business in Manila and many would send half their pay back home. It did not mean they loved the country. They just did it because it worked for them financially.

(But of course it had little to do with the social safety net in any country. It was just economics.)


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## citlali

Maybe Mexican do not have the same status as the Central Americans and cannot qualify under the refugie status.


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## Longford

kcowan said:


> How does anyone explain that most of the refugees at the US border are from countries south of Mexico these days? I used to run a business in Manila and many would send half their pay back home. It did not mean they loved the country. They just did it because it worked for them financially.
> 
> (But of course it had little to do with the social safety net in any country. It was just economics.)


I don't know that most of the people crossing into the USA illegally are from countries other then Mexico. Maybe the people being caught and turned-back/deported are from elsewhere and that the Mexicans crossing illegally know how to do so with less risk of capture. I think that's probably what's happening. On the other hand, when the economy in the USA took a hit and unemployment increased many of the people living/working illegally lost their jobs and returned to Mexico. Also, for much of the Obama administration in Washington, D.C. the rates of capture/deportation have been at record-high levels, if I'm recalling news of that correctly. We do know that hundreds of thousands of kids from the USA relocated to Mexico with one or both of their parents who had either left voluntarily or were deported. I do believe that a country's "safety net" has a bearing on whether someone chooses to abandon their home country for elsewhere, or not.


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