# dual citizenship question



## Rndebidee (Jan 8, 2012)

Looking to relocate to England if this is possible. My mum was born in England but married my father who was American. She currently has American Citizenship but I believe she also maintained her English citizenship as she does collect a retirement pension from England. My two older sisters were born in England but I was born here in the States. Is there any way that I can stay longer than the max 6 months allotted to tourist visas? Since my mum is English even though she is not living there, could I apply for dual citizenship and if not is there another way to move there indefinitely? I am not of school age so going to school there is not an option.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Rndebidee said:


> Looking to relocate to England if this is possible. My mum was born in England but married my father who was American. She currently has American Citizenship but I believe she also maintained her English citizenship as she does collect a retirement pension from England. My two older sisters were born in England but I was born here in the States. Is there any way that I can stay longer than the max 6 months allotted to tourist visas? Since my mum is English even though she is not living there, could I apply for dual citizenship and if not is there another way to move there indefinitely? I am not of school age so going to school there is not an option.


It depends on when you were born. If you were born before 1st January 1983, you aren't automatically British but you can be registered as British. If you were born on or after that date, then you are automatically British as your mother is British citizen otherwise than by descent (being born in UK). For registration, you must apply to the British consulate in NYC: UK Border Agency | How do I register as a British citizen if I was born before 1983 to a British mother?
If you are automatically British, all you need to do is to apply for your British passport enclosing documentary evidence of your nationality, such as your birth certificate, your mother's birth certificate and marriage certificate.
Passports


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## Rndebidee (Jan 8, 2012)

Thank you so much for your very informative and quick response to my query. I was born in 1959 so I would not automatically qualified but I have talked with my mum and she is sending me her UK passport and a copy of her birth certificate so will apply as directed. Since it appears I qualify for application for British citizenship how long of a process does it usually take and would I be able to bring my disabled dependent daughter with me and could I apply for dependent visa for her if I am granted British citizenship?


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Rndebidee said:


> Thank you so much for your very informative and quick response to my query. I was born in 1959 so I would not automatically qualified but I have talked with my mum and she is sending me her UK passport and a copy of her birth certificate so will apply as directed. Since it appears I qualify for application for British citizenship how long of a process does it usually take and would I be able to bring my disabled dependent daughter with me and could I apply for dependent visa for her if I am granted British citizenship?


Yes, you can apply for registration as British citizen - the law only changed a few years ago to enable those born before 7 Feb 1961 to register as British. All applications are processed in Liverpool and current timescale is around 3-4 months. I don't think there are any fees for applying, but there will be background check on your character (e.g. any criminal convictions) and you may have to attend a citizenship ceremony at the consulate.

Your daughter's case is a difficult one. Unless she is under 18, as an adult daughter she can only be admitted for exceptional compassionate reasons. Her disability and dependence on you may be admissible, but the granting of visa is at the discretion of the UK Border Agency. 

_Other relatives who wish to join a relative in the United Kingdom must not only satisfy each of the requirements of both Paragraph 317 and 319, they must also demonstrate that they are living alone in the *most exceptional compassionate circumstances*. Therefore such applications will have to be decided on the individual merits of the case. As the majority of such applications will be from persons who are over the age of 18, but not necessarily old and frail, the compassionate circumstances will need to be very strong. The circumstances will have to be such that the applicant cannot function (either because of illness or disability) without the help and support of friends or relatives and that no such help or support is available to them in the country where they are living._

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/s...dischapter8/08section6/annexw.pdf?view=Binary

Also there is a hefty application fee of $2993. 
UK Border Agency | Elderly and other dependent relatives
If she qualifies for a visa, she may be given indefinite leave to enter (i.e. permanent residency).

Otherwise she can come as a visitor visa-free, but can only stay for 6 months.


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## Rndebidee (Jan 8, 2012)

Thank you once again for your vast knowledge in this subject. As for my daughter she is 22 and solely dependent on me for her care. She could never live independently and I have guardianship of her and her co-gaurdian is studying in Scotland and then applying for Med School in England, so she would not be available to care for her. The cost is quite high but I would have no choice but to apply and pay the fee as I could not ever leave her behind in the care of strangers. Would you recommend I apply for that after I find out if I get accepted for UK citizenship? I would not be moving to England for another year as I want to save enough money to support both of us for at least a year. After that I hope to open up a coffee shop in the town centre.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Rndebidee said:


> Thank you once again for your vast knowledge in this subject. As for my daughter she is 22 and solely dependent on me for her care. She could never live independently and I have guardianship of her and her co-gaurdian is studying in Scotland and then applying for Med School in England, so she would not be available to care for her. The cost is quite high but I would have no choice but to apply and pay the fee as I could not ever leave her behind in the care of strangers. Would you recommend I apply for that after I find out if I get accepted for UK citizenship? I would not be moving to England for another year as I want to save enough money to support both of us for at least a year. After that I hope to open up a coffee shop in the town centre.


You can't apply anyway until you are given British citizenship. You will probably stand a chance but you will need to explain in details your daughter's circumstances and lack of family support in US, backed by medical and other evidence, such as from a professional who knows her family situation. Granting of a settlement visa to an adult offspring is exceptional and only on most compassionate grounds, so be prepared to argue your case. The more documents you can put together, the stronger your case will be.


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## Crawford (Jan 23, 2011)

Rndebidee said:


> Thank you once again for your vast knowledge in this subject. As for my daughter she is 22 and solely dependent on me for her care. She could never live independently and I have guardianship of her and her co-gaurdian is studying in Scotland and then applying for Med School in England, so she would not be available to care for her. The cost is quite high but I would have no choice but to apply and pay the fee as I could not ever leave her behind in the care of strangers. Would you recommend I apply for that after I find out if I get accepted for UK citizenship? I would not be moving to England for another year as I want to save enough money to support both of us for at least a year. After that I hope to open up a coffee shop in the town centre.


You are 52 years of age, have a disabled daughter and you are thinking of moving to the UK where you think you can open a coffee shop? - and in what town centre are you talking about?

Have you thought this through? How do you think you are going to manage any better in the UK where you have never lived/worked etc.


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## agua642 (May 24, 2009)

Best of luck hope plans all go in your favor!


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## Rndebidee (Jan 8, 2012)

I'm completely amazed how negative you appear to be. You really don't know anything about me yet you say I have never lived/worked in England. You're right, I have never worked there but I have lived in England and even went to school there but that was indeed many years ago and things are so much different than they were back then,and yes I know that. I have family in the area I am looking into settling in and I have their support as well. I'm not thinking of going into a business blindly as I have done my homework and I intend to have the money saved to fund this venture. As you pointed out I am indeed 52year old woman with a disabled daughter, but I am also quite intelligent and have been self sufficient for many a year and I don't go into things lightly as that would indeed potentially keep you in the poor house. I also don't know how you can say "Have you thought this through? How do you think you are going to manage any better in the UK where you have never lived/worked etc. ". I am not going into this to "manage any better", I want a change from what I am currently doing and have always wanted to move back to England all my life just life events have stopped me from doing that until now. I honestly don't think I need to explain myself any further and I do want to thank you for your time in reading and responding to my post. Hopefully my shop will be open in the near future and hopefully be successful and perhaps I could invite you for a coffee on me. I hope you have a great day!


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## Rndebidee (Jan 8, 2012)

Aqua 642, Thank you! I know things will work out, just sometimes not in the exact way we plan but in the end life works out the way it should.


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## Crawford (Jan 23, 2011)

Rndebidee said:


> I'm completely amazed how negative you appear to be. You really don't know anything about me yet you say I have never lived/worked in England. You're right, I have never worked there but I have lived in England and even went to school there but that was indeed many years ago and things are so much different than they were back then,and yes I know that. I have family in the area I am looking into settling in and I have their support as well. I'm not thinking of going into a business blindly as I have done my homework and I intend to have the money saved to fund this venture. As you pointed out I am indeed 52year old woman with a disabled daughter, but I am also quite intelligent and have been self sufficient for many a year and I don't go into things lightly as that would indeed potentially keep you in the poor house. I also don't know how you can say "Have you thought this through? How do you think you are going to manage any better in the UK where you have never lived/worked etc. ". I am not going into this to "manage any better", I want a change from what I am currently doing and have always wanted to move back to England all my life just life events have stopped me from doing that until now. I honestly don't think I need to explain myself any further and I do want to thank you for your time in reading and responding to my post. Hopefully my shop will be open in the near future and hopefully be successful and perhaps I could invite you for a coffee on me. I hope you have a great day!


Sorry, did not mean to sound negative. 

However, in this economic climate it is difficult enough for people who have jobs to go to to pack up and move to another country to start again.

There is high unemployment everywhere, and with the greatest of respect, hoping to open a coffee shop somewhere is going to be a hard task , with long hours and possibly not much profit in the first year - hard enough for a young couple to do, and certainly more difficult with a dependent child who needs constant attention. The costs of a 'carer' alone will possibly take any monies you do make. 

However, if you think you have the resources to survive for the first year then good luck to you.


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## agua642 (May 24, 2009)

What town are you planing on opening your coffee shop, I'll pop in for a coffee next time I'm in Uk


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## Canuck10 (Dec 25, 2011)

Rndebidee said:


> I'm completely amazed how negative you appear to be. You really don't know anything about me yet you say I have never lived/worked in England. You're right, I have never worked there but I have lived in England and even went to school there but that was indeed many years ago and things are so much different than they were back then,and yes I know that. I have family in the area I am looking into settling in and I have their support as well. I'm not thinking of going into a business blindly as I have done my homework and I intend to have the money saved to fund this venture. As you pointed out I am indeed 52year old woman with a disabled daughter, but I am also quite intelligent and have been self sufficient for many a year and I don't go into things lightly as that would indeed potentially keep you in the poor house. I also don't know how you can say "Have you thought this through? How do you think you are going to manage any better in the UK where you have never lived/worked etc. ". I am not going into this to "manage any better", I want a change from what I am currently doing and have always wanted to move back to England all my life just life events have stopped me from doing that until now. I honestly don't think I need to explain myself any further and I do want to thank you for your time in reading and responding to my post. Hopefully my shop will be open in the near future and hopefully be successful and perhaps I could invite you for a coffee on me. I hope you have a great day!


You go girl!!!


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## Rndebidee (Jan 8, 2012)

Crawford said:


> Sorry, did not mean to sound negative.
> 
> However, in this economic climate it is difficult enough for people who have jobs to go to to pack up and move to another country to start again.
> 
> ...


I know things aren't going to be easy, nothing worth while comes easy, at least it hasn't for me. As for my daughter, I was planning on having her work in the coffee shop with me. I could train her to wash down the tables and chairs and other simple little task that need doing. She would get a pay check and she would be paying taxes as well. She's a very social person and would love being there to meet all the different people that will come into our little shop.


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## Rndebidee (Jan 8, 2012)

agua642 said:


> What town are you planing on opening your coffee shop, I'll pop in for a coffee next time I'm in Uk


I am hoping to relocate to Lincoln in the Bailgate area. I love being within walking distance to the City Centre and the Cathedral. My family is just under an hour drive away. Would love for you to drop by once I'm up and running. I will be sure to post on this site again once I get it up and running. Thanks so much for your support!


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## Rndebidee (Jan 8, 2012)

Canuck10 said:


> You go girl!!!


Thanks for your positive feedback! :clap2::clap2:


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Rndebidee said:


> I am hoping to relocate to Lincoln in the Bailgate area. I love being within walking distance to the City Centre and the Cathedral. My family is just under an hour drive away. Would love for you to drop by once I'm up and running. I will be sure to post on this site again once I get it up and running. Thanks so much for your support!


I wish you best of luck, but you'll need more than luck to make it viable. Starting and running a small business in 2012 Britain is fraught with difficulties. It's been said that something like 80% of new small businesses fold up within the first year. I know Lincoln quite well - used to live there. I currently live in a tourist resort and I have seen many tourist and visitor-oriented businesses hit the buffers in the current downturn, and those that are staying open are hardly making any money - just about keeping the bailiffs away. There is fierce competition, and in UK, tourist season is quite short, roughly Easter to October or about 6 months. And it's difficult to survive during the winter months just on resident population.

It's things like crippling business rates (tax), business insurance and expensive bank overdraft (or lack of - banks have drastically reduced lending to small businesses since the start of credit squeeze) that are killing many private enterprises. Many business owners want to get out, but cannot sell their business as there are few takers. And for any busineses dealing with food, hygiene regulations and health and safety rules are so strict you need to spend a small fortune bringing facilities up to scratch and maintaining them. If you fail an unannounced inspection, they can close you down immediately.

Please don't think I'm just trying to burst your bubbles for the sake of it. I know from bitter experience of people I care about, and I don't want you to make the same mistake. You have your dear daughter to look after and you have potentially an exciting new life in UK. I just don't want you to lose a lot of hard-earned cash. If you want to open a business, do a thorough research of the market, and speak to the chamber of commerce and local branch of federation of small businesses (FSB), and existing cafe and tea room owners.


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## manny.j (Dec 4, 2011)

Rndebidee said:


> I am hoping to relocate to Lincoln in the Bailgate area. I love being within walking distance to the City Centre and the Cathedral. My family is just under an hour drive away. Would love for you to drop by once I'm up and running. I will be sure to post on this site again once I get it up and running. Thanks so much for your support!


Too bad your cafeteria isn't set up in Glasgow as my wife and I would have also dropped by for coffee...we are still in US but planning to move there in the next 2-3 months. I enjoyed reading your comments, hope it all works out for you


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## Rndebidee (Jan 8, 2012)

Joppa said:


> I wish you best of luck, but you'll need more than luck to make it viable. Starting and running a small business in 2012 Britain is fraught with difficulties. It's been said that something like 80% of new small businesses fold up within the first year. I know Lincoln quite well - used to live there. I currently live in a tourist resort and I have seen many tourist and visitor-oriented businesses hit the buffers in the current downturn, and those that are staying open are hardly making any money - just about keeping the bailiffs away. There is fierce competition, and in UK, tourist season is quite short, roughly Easter to October or about 6 months. And it's difficult to survive during the winter months just on resident population.
> 
> It's things like crippling business rates (tax), business insurance and expensive bank overdraft (or lack of - banks have drastically reduced lending to small businesses since the start of credit squeeze) that are killing many private enterprises. Many business owners want to get out, but cannot sell their business as there are few takers. And for any busineses dealing with food, hygiene regulations and health and safety rules are so strict you need to spend a small fortune bringing facilities up to scratch and maintaining them. If you fail an unannounced inspection, they can close you down immediately.
> 
> Please don't think I'm just trying to burst your bubbles for the sake of it. I know from bitter experience of people I care about, and I don't want you to make the same mistake. You have your dear daughter to look after and you have potentially an exciting new life in UK. I just don't want you to lose a lot of hard-earned cash. If you want to open a business, do a thorough research of the market, and speak to the chamber of commerce and local branch of federation of small businesses (FSB), and existing cafe and tea room owners.


Thanks so much for your valuable insight. I will definitely look into the FSB. I can only hope that I fall into the 20% and not the 80%. Heck someone has to so why not me. I am essentially wanting to open this coffee shop to allow my daughter and I to work together. Not planning on getting rich, just want to make enough to cover our overhead and all the other expenses associated with it. I will certainly recheck all the details with my solicitor and get his honest opinion as I don't want to lose my life savings in an endeavor that is bound for failure. Thanks again for all your advice, it is always appreciated.


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## Rndebidee (Jan 8, 2012)

manny.j said:


> Too bad your cafeteria isn't set up in Glasgow as my wife and I would have also dropped by for coffee...we are still in US but planning to move there in the next 2-3 months. I enjoyed reading your comments, hope it all works out for you


Thanks so much! I will definitely heed all the advice I have been given. I am so thankful for all the knowledgeable people on this forum. So, so happy that I found it. As for Glasgow, so enjoyed visiting there. The accents were much more difficult to understand for me than it was in other parts of Scotland. Felt so bad asking people to repeat themselves or ask them to speak slower, they must of been saying under their breaths "dumb American" haha. Everyone we met were so friendly, I'm sure you will enjoy your time there.


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## Rndebidee (Jan 8, 2012)

This is probably a mute question and probably jumping the gun a bit. Would like to know once I have been approved for citizenship, I know I will have to go to the citizenship ceremony, but would it be held here in the States, NYC as I am assuming that is the closest consulate facility to me or will they require me to fly to England for the ceremony? I know I should just calm my excitement and just wait until the first process is done before worrying about the second step, but I am a planner and I map out just about every aspect of my life as it keeps me on task and keeps me focused on what is really important in my life.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Rndebidee said:


> This is probably a mute question and probably jumping the gun a bit. Would like to know once I have been approved for citizenship, I know I will have to go to the citizenship ceremony, but would it be held here in the States, NYC as I am assuming that is the closest consulate facility to me or will they require me to fly to England for the ceremony? I know I should just calm my excitement and just wait until the first process is done before worrying about the second step, but I am a planner and I map out just about every aspect of my life as it keeps me on task and keeps me focused on what is really important in my life.


As you are applying for citizenship in the US, citizenship ceremony will be held at the nearest British consulate, for which you'll have to pay £80.


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## Rndebidee (Jan 8, 2012)

Joppa said:


> As you are applying for citizenship in the US, citizenship ceremony will be held at the nearest British consulate, for which you'll have to pay £80.


Thank you, I thought that would be the case but I wasn't sure. :happy:


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## Rndebidee (Jan 8, 2012)

OK, another question. On the application form for citizenship in section 2.5 it is wanting the "Address of tax office or tax office reference". What do I put there? Do they want the address for the Internal Revenue Service? Our state tax office? I am at a loss as to what they really want me to put here, this is the only thing right now holding up my application so any help in how I should answer this question would be much appreciated.


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## Rndebidee (Jan 8, 2012)

Joppa said:


> You can't apply anyway until you are given British citizenship. You will probably stand a chance but you will need to explain in details your daughter's circumstances and lack of family support in US, backed by medical and other evidence, such as from a professional who knows her family situation. Granting of a settlement visa to an adult offspring is exceptional and only on most compassionate grounds, so be prepared to argue your case. The more documents you can put together, the stronger your case will be.


Joppa,
Once I get my citizenship, would I apply for my daughters visa or ILR here in the US or once we are there in the UK? I am thinking I would most likely have to do it here based on how everything else seems to work. I just would like to do it in person so they could meet my daughter and understand why it is necessary. Would I also need to show financial proof that I can support her and she would not be utilizing public assistance?


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Rndebidee said:


> Joppa,
> Once I get my citizenship, would I apply for my daughters visa or ILR here in the US or once we are there in the UK? I am thinking I would most likely have to do it here based on how everything else seems to work. I just would like to do it in person so they could meet my daughter and understand why it is necessary. Would I also need to show financial proof that I can support her and she would not be utilizing public assistance?


It's exceptional for UKBA in US to interview anyone, and almost all visa applications are decided on documents only. I don't think you can ask for a personal meeting - they will tell you if an interview is required, and I haven't come across in years. So you need to send in as much documentation as you can, including from professionals who know the circumstances. As I've said, such a visa is issued only on exceptional, compassionate circumstances.
And yes, you have to demonstrate adequate maintenance and she has no recourse to public funds.


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## Rndebidee (Jan 8, 2012)

Joppa said:


> It's exceptional for UKBA in US to interview anyone, and almost all visa applications are decided on documents only. I don't think you can ask for a personal meeting - they will tell you if an interview is required, and I haven't come across in years. So you need to send in as much documentation as you can, including from professionals who know the circumstances. As I've said, such a visa is issued only on exceptional, compassionate circumstances.
> And yes, you have to demonstrate adequate maintenance and she has no recourse to public funds.


Thanks again for your reply. How much do I need to show as "adequate maintenance" and do I need to show that I have the amount to sustain her for a number of years?


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Rndebidee said:


> Thanks again for your reply. How much do I need to show as "adequate maintenance" and do I need to show that I have the amount to sustain her for a number of years?


The current rule is you need to have £105.95 per week left over after paying for housing and council tax for the two of you. It has to be sourced from steady UK income or from savings. While no timescale is laid down, you should aim to have enough to last 6 months, as it may take that long to be financially established with a job etc.


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## Rndebidee (Jan 8, 2012)

Joppa said:


> The current rule is you need to have £105.95 per week left over after paying for housing and council tax for the two of you. It has to be sourced from steady UK income or from savings. While no timescale is laid down, you should aim to have enough to last 6 months, as it may take that long to be financially established with a job etc.


I am to assume that they will accept the money I have in savings and checking accounts here in the US as sufficient as I could easily transfer the money into a UK bank account once I have that set up.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Rndebidee said:


> I am to assume that they will accept the money I have in savings and checking accounts here in the US as sufficient as I could easily transfer the money into a UK bank account once I have that set up.


That will be fine until the rules are changed and only UK-sourced funds will probably be admissible.


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## markguyver (May 5, 2012)

Joppa said:


> If you were born before 1st January 1983, you aren't automatically British but you can be registered as British. If you were born on or after that date, then you are automatically British as your mother is British citizen otherwise than by descent (being born in UK).


Sorry to hijack an old thread, but it appears you guys know a bit and may be able to help me..
I want to look into applying for dual citizenship for AUS and UK.. 
My mother was born in '66 in the UK (her parents were citizens). 
Her family moved to Australia in '71. 
She's now an Australian citizen (as of '06), but I believe her mother, my grandmother, is still a British citizen. 
I was born in '89 in Australia..
Can anyone advise me if I'm eligible to have "dual citizenship" and what steps I'd need to take?
Any help is appreciated!
Thanks.


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

markguyver said:


> Sorry to hijack an old thread, but it appears you guys know a bit and may be able to help me..
> I want to look into applying for dual citizenship for AUS and UK..
> My mother was born in '66 in the UK (her parents were citizens).
> Her family moved to Australia in '71.
> ...


Your mum was born in the UK. Which means she is a British citizen by birth. Important distinction.

You were born in '89. To a British by birth mum.

Joppa answered your question-you are British. Follow the links Joppa provided to apply for your passport.



> If you were born on or after that date, then you are automatically British as your mother is British citizen otherwise than by descent (being born in UK)...If you are automatically British, all you need to do is to apply for your British passport enclosing documentary evidence of your nationality, such as your birth certificate, your mother's birth certificate and marriage certificate.


Apply for your passport here:

http://ukinaustralia.fco.gov.uk/en/help-for-british-nationals/passports


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## markguyver (May 5, 2012)

I thought so, but wanted to be clear as I've been know to misread things at 3am before, haha.
Thanks heaps, didn't expect such a swift response, especially at what's around 3am for me.
Cheers


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

markguyver said:


> I thought so, but wanted to be clear as I've been know to misread things at 3am before, haha.
> Thanks heaps, didn't expect such a swift response, especially at what's around 3am for me.
> Cheers


Sadly, I've been known to misread things at 10am, after a goodnight sleep and proper breakfast-it's why I read and re-read, and ask for clarification.

But now, consider getting some sleep

Welcome to the forum:lol:


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## markguyver (May 5, 2012)

We've all been there, haha.
Yeah, I really should try and sleep!
Thanks for the info, and the welcome ^,^


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