# Is Trading considered passive income for Elective Residence?



## eamarsha (Apr 16, 2016)

Hi,

We have our visa appointment in a few weeks. For passive income, we have a rental property and we have income from husband's day trading. Will this fly?


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

For the visa no idea. But normally it's considered business income. You just need to look at the allowed deductions.


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## Italia-Mx (Jan 14, 2009)

For passive or unearned income the consulates like to see that which is guaranteed for life such as US Social Security, or private pension income from reliable, established sources. In other words, passive (unearned) income that is not likely to go away for any unforeseen reason. Income from your rental property, for example, will not always be guaranteed and income from day trading can fluctuate a lot.


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## accbgb (Sep 23, 2009)

I think the rental income will be given positive consideration but, the day trading? Not likely.

The consulate is looking for more-or-less guaranteed income that will ensure that you do not become a burden on the State and (more than likely) that you will contribute to the Italian economy in a meaningful way.

Pensions, Social Security, interest-bearing bonds, and savings are all sources of stable income. Income from day trading can be all over the place and subject to the vagaries of the market. Worse, your particular visa officer may decide to view "day trading" as a job - something which is forbidden with an E/R visa.

I wouldn't bring it up at all unless you absolutely need it to show enough income; if you do so, be prepared to have your visa request denied.


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## eamarsha (Apr 16, 2016)

Thanks for your input. Looks like we'll have to keep praying for favor on our case.


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## accbgb (Sep 23, 2009)

eamarsha said:


> Thanks for your input. Looks like we'll have to keep praying for favor on our case.


By the way - is there a chance that either of you has any Italian blood?

If yes, there are possibilities...


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## eamarsha (Apr 16, 2016)

accbgb said:


> By the way - is there a chance that either of you has any Italian blood?
> 
> If yes, there are possibilities...



No, not really, we're African American.


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

The expression "Italian blood" is not helpful. Let's try that question again....

Do either of you have an ancestor -- a great great grandparent, for example -- who was at least born in Italy? We're not asking about the character of your predominant ancestry, your "race," or "blood."

FYI, this man is Italian.


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## accbgb (Sep 23, 2009)

I think it is safe to say that everyone knows what is meant by "Do either of you have any Italian blood?"


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

No, I disagree. It's a misleading term, and I've often seen people get confused. To pick an obvious example, adoption is something most people would incorrectly exclude if you're asking about "blood." I don't recommend using the term in this context.


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## eamarsha (Apr 16, 2016)

Both of our great grandparents were slaves and they were not given any ancestry information, unfortunately, but below that, no one is Italian.


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

If I understand correctly, all your great grandparents were slaves (with no further ancestry information), and they and all of their descendants had no family-related interactions with Italians or Italian-Americans (including adoption and marriage). If my understanding is correct, then you can probably rule out qualifying for Italian citizenship based on parentage/ancestry.

"Blood" is highly misleading. As one example, let's suppose your grandmother (100% genetically descended from slaves imported from Africa) married the legally adopted grandson of an Italian immigrant (also 100% genetically descended from slaves). It's at least possible in this example your grandmother acquired Italian citizenship when she married. There are all kinds of "crazy" ways Italian citizenship can be acquired/passed from generation to generation (and within the same generation), and they don't all involve "blood" or DNA. You can be 100% genetically Italian (whatever that means) and not be an Italian citizen, and you can be 0% genetically Italian (ditto) and be recognized as an Italian citizen -- and I've encountered both scenarios, many times. Italian citizenship law doesn't even deal with genetics, DNA, blood, etc. -- they're alien concepts within the law, which is why you can't even send in a DNA test for consideration. For example, in a citizenship recognition process the legally married husband is presumptively deemed the father of any child his wife bears while they're married (even if they marry the day before she gives birth), whether that's genetically true or not. (Never mind the modern day complexities of surrogacy, donors, etc.)

Anyway, I just wanted to emphasize that "blood" just doesn't make sense in this context, even as shorthand. Thanks for giving me the opportunity.


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## Italia-Mx (Jan 14, 2009)

accbgb said:


> I think it is safe to say that everyone knows what is meant by "Do either of you have any Italian blood?"





BBCWatcher said:


> No, I disagree. It's a misleading term, and I've often seen people get confused. To pick an obvious example, adoption is something most people would incorrectly exclude if you're asking about "blood." I don't recommend using the term in this context.


Misleading for whom? The millions of Americans in the USA, Canada, Australia, etc., descended from non-adopted Italians born in Italy to non-adopted parents also born in Italy, in some cases, my own for example, going back to Roman times? We know exactly what is meant by Italian blood with no explanation needed whatsoever.


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## accbgb (Sep 23, 2009)

Okay, I will give BBCWATCHER his due and say that he(she?) is basically correct. There _is_ more to the subject than just blood.

However, I also believe that in the context of these forums, most people understand the question and might very well respond on their own, "I don't have any Italian blood, but I do have an Italian step-father - would that count?"

In case it is not clear to the original poster what we are making such a fuss about: if either of you had Italian blood (or just an Italian step-father...), you might then be eligible for Italian citizenship jus sanguinis (which, I must point out, literally translates to "by right of blood").


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

BBCWatcher said:


> There are all kinds of "crazy" ways Italian citizenship can be acquired/passed from generation to generation (and within the same generation), and they don't all involve "blood" or DNA.


Yes but from that point on it is passed on by "blood"


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

I believe the term "Italian blood" used in this particular context is generally referred to as a "metaphor"



> metaphor
> ˈmɛtəfə,-fɔ
> noun
> a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.


Now can we get back to the subject at hand?
Cheers,
Bev


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## Italia-Mx (Jan 14, 2009)

BBCWatcher said:


> For example, in a citizenship recognition process the legally married husband is presumptively deemed the father of any child his wife bears while they're married (even if they marry the day before she gives birth), whether that's genetically true or not. (Never mind the modern day complexities of surrogacy, donors, etc.)


There are no complexities of surrogacy in Italy because surrogacy is illegal in Italy and many Italians would like to see it made an international crime as well.


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

Italia-Mx said:


> There are no complexities of surrogacy in Italy because surrogacy is illegal in Italy....


Consequently many Italians go abroad for their surrogacy-related needs.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

BBCWatcher said:


> Consequently many Italians go abroad for their surrogacy-related needs.


And suffer the consequences. There are a couple of long-standing surrogacy-related court cases (involving immigration and parental claims) in France, and I would suspect in Italy as well.

Could we please get back to the main topic? Otherwise I believe this thread has run its course.
Cheers,
Bev


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