# Two articles about education in the UK



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Two articles about education in the UK

First, bad news for those who want to send their children to university in the UK
English universities on course to become most expensive in world - Education News, Education - The Independent

Second, the Education Minister talks about changing discipline guidelines
Michael Gove promises 'new deal' for teachers on classroom discipline | Politics | The Guardian


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## lynn (Sep 25, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Two articles about education in the UK
> 
> First, bad news for those who want to send their children to university in the UK
> English universities on course to become most expensive in world - Education News, Education - The Independent
> ...


We are acutely aware of the cost of Universities in the UK, as my eldest is applying to go as we speak. Yes, the costs are horrendous, but as the article does mention, the quality of the product is really fantastic. Furthermore, it is only in the UK that loans are available for students to finance their education. Everywhere else, you have to fund it yourself up front. Plus, there are alot of bursaries, scholarships and funds to apply for to help with costs. 
My son is very focused on getting to University to study Economics, and therefore, we support him in this, but I have to say, I don't think it is the be all and end all route after school, and we have talked about going directly into the workplace as a viable alternative. For him though, this would have to be back in the UK, as there are little or no career opportunities for him here in Spain. So, he stares down the barrel of an enormous debt to repay after three years at University. Lets hope he learns a lot!!


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2010)

lynn said:


> My son is very focused on getting to University to study Economics, and therefore, we support him in this, but I have to say, I don't think it is the be all and end all route after school, and we have talked about going directly into the workplace as a viable alternative. For him though, this would have to be back in the UK, as there are little or no career opportunities for him here in Spain. So, he stares down the barrel of an enormous debt to repay after three years at University. Lets hope he learns a lot!!


Has he looked into Canadian universities? I see in the list that they're cheaper than in the UK. I'm very happy with the decision that I made to go to Canada. 

Best of luck to him (and you)! I don't miss the uni. application process!


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## lynn (Sep 25, 2008)

halydia said:


> Has he looked into Canadian universities? I see in the list that they're cheaper than in the UK. I'm very happy with the decision that I made to go to Canada.
> 
> Best of luck to him (and you)! I don't miss the uni. application process!


We haven't looked at Canadian Unis, mainly because of the funding issues. We know he will be eligible for the student loans in the UK...

However, he has been to Canada twice and absolutely loved the county! I wouldn't be at all surprised if he chose to go there at some point in his life....

The whole uni application process is definitely stressful. First they have to choose five to put on the application form, and wait to see if any/all make offers. If you pitch too high or too low, you leave yourself without any offers which happened to a friend of his last year. The only thing they seem to look at is AS results, a very small personal statement and a school reference. No interviews anymore! It was apparent from our experience of his friends who went through the process last year that those students who were applying to UK universities as international applicants, rather than 'home' or 'eu' students, got much better offers. No surprise there - they are paying even more fees so the universities love them even more!
As I said, I don't think it is the end of the world if he doesn't attend university, so we can but wait and see what transpires....


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## Guest (Oct 2, 2010)

lynn said:


> We haven't looked at Canadian Unis, mainly because of the funding issues. We know he will be eligible for the student loans in the UK...
> 
> However, he has been to Canada twice and absolutely loved the county! I wouldn't be at all surprised if he chose to go there at some point in his life....
> 
> ...


I see. Let me know if, at any point, you look at Canada. I'd be happy to help.

The process sounds really tough! It sounds crazy, but I also found that playing the "diversity" card when applying to university worked. It it one common application for all five unis? I suppose that's better than five individual applications with questions (which is what I had to do for the US), but it all seems so impersonal. 

Good luck!


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

lynn said:


> We are acutely aware of the cost of Universities in the UK, as my eldest is applying to go as we speak. Yes, the costs are horrendous, but as the article does mention, the quality of the product is really fantastic. Furthermore, it is only in the UK that loans are available for students to finance their education. Everywhere else, you have to fund it yourself up front. Plus, there are alot of bursaries, scholarships and funds to apply for to help with costs.
> My son is very focused on getting to University to study Economics, and therefore, we support him in this, but I have to say, I don't think it is the be all and end all route after school, and we have talked about going directly into the workplace as a viable alternative. For him though, this would have to be back in the UK, as there are little or no career opportunities for him here in Spain. So, he stares down the barrel of an enormous debt to repay after three years at University. Lets hope he learns a lot!!


Are you sure your son, who is presumably living with you in Spain, is eligible for student financial support? You normally have to live in UK for three years prior to starting your course, but not mainly for the purpose of receiving education (e.g. attending school, 6th form college etc). Non-UK EEA citizens are charged home tuition fees and can get a loan for them (only). But for British citizens living in another EEA country, you need to show that the student or you (as parents) are ordinarily resident in UK but temporary staying in Spain, or that you are with the UK diplomatic service or armed forces etc. British expat children living in another EEA country are normally charged international student fees (around £10,000 a year) and aren't usually eligible for loans, grants or bursaries.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Joppa said:


> Are you sure your son, who is presumably living with you in Spain, is eligible for student financial support? You normally have to live in UK for three years prior to starting your course, but not mainly for the purpose of receiving education (e.g. attending school, 6th form college etc). Non-UK EEA citizens are charged home tuition fees and can get a loan for them (only). But for British citizens living in another EEA country, you need to show that the student or you (as parents) are ordinarily resident in UK but temporary staying in Spain, or that you are with the UK diplomatic service or armed forces etc. British expat children living in another EEA country are normally charged international student fees (around £10,000 a year) and aren't usually eligible for loans, grants or bursaries.


yes I believe he does qualify


EU students don't have to establish residency in the same way as those from outside the EU in order to qualify - being in an EU country for 3 years or more counts, so as long as he was in the EU for the past 3 years he's fine


it might not be exactly the same as a UK resident (I don't know - I'd have to read up more than I have time to at the mo), but there is finance & there are loans available

Students from other EU countries : Directgov - Education and learning


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> yes I believe he does qualify
> 
> 
> EU students don't have to establish residency in the same way as those from outside the EU in order to qualify - being in an EU country for 3 years or more counts, so as long as he was in the EU for the past 3 years he's fine
> ...


Students from other EU countries exclude British citizens.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Joppa said:


> Students from other EU countries exclude British citizens.


it doesn't afaik


can you point me to a link which specifically says that?


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## lynn (Sep 25, 2008)

Joppa said:


> Students from other EU countries exclude British citizens.


We have spoken directly to the Student Finance dept. and they have confirmed that he will be eligible for funding through loans. The relevant bit is:

Students from England returning to the UK to study
You could also qualify for additional support on top of help with tuition fees if you're a new student who:

•was settled in the UK and ordinarily resident in England but left to exercise a right of residence elsewhere in the EEA or Switzerland, and
•is returning to the UK to start a course on or after 1 September 2008

Plus, we have watched carefully what has happened to those who went this year, and yes, they have been able to access the same funding and loans as 'home' students...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

lynn said:


> We have spoken directly to the Student Finance dept. and they have confirmed that he will be eligible for funding through loans. The relevant bit is:
> 
> Students from England returning to the UK to study
> You could also qualify for additional support on top of help with tuition fees if you're a new student who:
> ...


thanks

I knew I wasn't going crazy - I have a few years to before I have to worry about this but I am trying to keep an eye on it

I can't find that bit - can you put a link to the page it's on?


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## lynn (Sep 25, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> thanks
> 
> I knew I wasn't going crazy - I have a few years to before I have to worry about this but I am trying to keep an eye on it
> 
> I can't find that bit - can you put a link to the page it's on?


No problem, this is the link:
EU students: help with living costs and other expenses : Directgov - Education and learning

Like you, we have been keeping a close eye on all this. Of course, things can change very quickly, so no doubt in 4 years time when we are doing it all over again for my daughter, the rules will have changed!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

lynn said:


> No problem, this is the link:
> EU students: help with living costs and other expenses : Directgov - Education and learning
> 
> Like you, we have been keeping a close eye on all this. Of course, things can change very quickly, so no doubt in 4 years time when we are doing it all over again for my daughter, the rules will have changed!


brilliant thanks!!

yes, my 14 year old is already thinking about where she wants to go to Uni

here in Spain, back in the UK, or in the US where my OH has business


lots of decisions to make


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Second, the Education Minister talks about changing discipline guidelines
> Michael Gove promises 'new deal' for teachers on classroom discipline | Politics | The Guardian


I think Michael Gove is a giant [string of asterisks] and the direction education is going in the UK gives me the shivers, but this particular issue does seem to make a lot of sense. The idea that teachers aren't allowed to restrain violent children who are fighting, or comfort a child in distress with a big hug, is totally bonkers. 

I believe these rules were introduced as part of John Major's "Children's Charter" in the 1980s? They may have been well-intentioned but it is definitely time for revision. This proposed change isn't a endorsement of corporal punishment or a passport to paedophilia, it's a return to trusting teachers to use their own judgement.

When a 14 year old thug can almost ruin a good teacher's career by pretending that the teacher hit him, even when there is no evidence, the teacher is automatically suspended - guilty until proven innocent. That just ain't right!


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

lynn said:


> We have spoken directly to the Student Finance dept. and they have confirmed that he will be eligible for funding through loans. The relevant bit is:
> 
> Students from England returning to the UK to study
> You could also qualify for additional support on top of help with tuition fees if you're a new student who:
> ...


Watch out for the coalition government's announcement on education budget cut later this month. There are talks that student finance, among other things, will be drastically curtailed, plus unis will be given power to charge more-or-less what they like in fees, up to £10,000 for home students in some cases.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Joppa said:


> Watch out for the coalition government's announcement on education budget cut later this month. There are talks that student finance, among other things, will be drastically curtailed, plus unis will be given power to charge more-or-less what they like in fees, up to £10,000 for home students in some cases.


you were wrong though, weren't you, about loans

so let's hope you're wrong about this too


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## lynn (Sep 25, 2008)

Joppa said:


> Watch out for the coalition government's announcement on education budget cut later this month. There are talks that student finance, among other things, will be drastically curtailed, plus unis will be given power to charge more-or-less what they like in fees, up to £10,000 for home students in some cases.


One can only work within the boundaries set at the time of application and admission. Of course, I am acutely aware of the stringent cost cutting of the present government. Should my son face a situation whereby he was unable to access funding to pursue further education, or the cost of it would be an untennable burden of debt for him, then alternatives to Uni would have to be considered. As I previously alluded to, I suspect that many UK unis court the 'international' student who already pay a considerable amount to access the quality further education the UK has to offer.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

lynn said:


> As I previously alluded to, I suspect that many UK unis court the 'international' student who already pay a considerable amount to access the quality further education the UK has to offer.


Yes, overseas students are a cash cow for them, and they often lower entry standards to accommodate them (and their wallet)! As places given out to overseas students don't fall within government-funded allocated places, they can do what they like.


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## ssm (Oct 21, 2011)

*Student loans*



lynn said:


> We have spoken directly to the Student Finance dept. and they have confirmed that he will be eligible for funding through loans. The relevant bit is:
> 
> Students from England returning to the UK to study
> You could also qualify for additional support on top of help with tuition fees if you're a new student who:
> ...


Hi Lynn

I know it's been a year since you posted this, but did you have direct experience of going through the process? If so I'd like to ask you a couple of questions about it. Thanks.


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## lynn (Sep 25, 2008)

ssm said:


> Hi Lynn
> 
> I know it's been a year since you posted this, but did you have direct experience of going through the process? If so I'd like to ask you a couple of questions about it. Thanks.


Hi,

Yes, my son gained the grades he needed to go to Uni in the UK, and we successfully applied for student finance. 

Lynn


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I think Michael Gove is a giant [string of asterisks] and the direction education is going in the UK gives me the shivers, but this particular issue does seem to make a lot of sense. The idea that teachers aren't allowed to restrain violent children who are fighting, or comfort a child in distress with a big hug, is totally bonkers.
> 
> I believe these rules were introduced as part of John Major's "Children's Charter" in the 1980s? They may have been well-intentioned but it is definitely time for revision. This proposed change isn't a endorsement of corporal punishment or a passport to paedophilia, it's a return to trusting teachers to use their own judgement.
> 
> When a 14 year old thug can almost ruin a good teacher's career by pretending that the teacher hit him, even when there is no evidence, the teacher is automatically suspended - guilty until proven innocent. That just ain't right!


This is an issue we have been campaigning on for years. I know of teachers whose lives have been ruined by false and malicious accusations.
The question of restraint is complicated. In my younger days I might -just might -have been able to restrain a violent teenager but no way could you expect a young female untrained in martial arts to control a knife-wielding Year Ten student.
I too am appalled at the direction education in the UK has been taking for the past few decades. In spite of the billions thrown at education by the Blair and Brown Governments we have slipped way down international league tables. In my time in teaching I have seen standards, both academic and social, slowly slide. The poor quality of many teachers is the unspoken 'secret' in teaching unions. As an employer I was appalled at the illiteracy and inarticulacy of job applicants.
We have failed the children of the less well-off in our society by transforming education into social engineering. The purpose of education is not to level down in the name of some daft theory of 'equality'. No wonder there is a large number of NEETS. No wonder my son has to use Indian subbies for his IT work.
If we sent fewer young people on university courses of dubious quality and value and concentrated on quality technical education in all its forms -engineering in all its forms, higher IT skills,and so on -we might, just might, not only give young people an education which provides them with the knowledge and skills to be able to fully participate in the working life of the country but also turn out socially aware and responsible citizens with a deserved place in society..


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## ssm (Oct 21, 2011)

lynn said:


> Hi,
> 
> Yes, my son gained the grades he needed to go to Uni in the UK, and we successfully applied for student finance.
> 
> Lynn


First of all, well done him!

If you don't want to answer any of the following tell me to mind my own business, but if you can help in any way I would appreciate it. We've submitted the UCAS form and one of the unis has come back with a Fee Status Questionnaire asking questions re residence. We have queried what we need to put on this as it seems geared to non UK/EU applicants. I would have thought that as long as we can prove the applicant is a British Citizen and returning from the EU that should be sufficient? Did you have any experiences like this? Also were you able to apply online or did you need to go through a special process and do you know if you could have applied for the maintenance loan/grant as well as the tuition fee loan? Thanks in advance.


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## lynn (Sep 25, 2008)

ssm said:


> First of all, well done him!
> 
> If you don't want to answer any of the following tell me to mind my own business, but if you can help in any way I would appreciate it. We've submitted the UCAS form and one of the unis has come back with a Fee Status Questionnaire asking questions re residence. We have queried what we need to put on this as it seems geared to non UK/EU applicants. I would have thought that as long as we can prove the applicant is a British Citizen and returning from the EU that should be sufficient? Did you have any experiences like this? Also were you able to apply online or did you need to go through a special process and do you know if you could have applied for the maintenance loan/grant as well as the tuition fee loan? Thanks in advance.


Yes, he worked extremely hard and we are very proud of his achievements...

Regarding the application process, I am happy to share our experiences, but feel it would best be done as a pm. You need to have posted 5 times to access this facility, so another three posts and we'll be there!

Lynn


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## ssm (Oct 21, 2011)

lynn said:


> Yes, he worked extremely hard and we are very proud of his achievements...
> 
> Regarding the application process, I am happy to share our experiences, but feel it would best be done as a pm. You need to have posted 5 times to access this facility, so another three posts and we'll be there!
> 
> Lynn


Ok I quite understand - I registered initially thinking I would PM you, then found out the restriction. Grrrr. So now I shall have to go and find something I can legitimately post on!


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## lynn (Sep 25, 2008)

ssm said:


> Ok I quite understand - I registered initially thinking I would PM you, then found out the restriction. Grrrr. So now I shall have to go and find something I can legitimately post on!


This is a really active and informative forum, so I'm sure you'll find a couple of things you want to post about! Before you know it, you'll be on here every day giving your ten pennyworth on all sorts of issues.... that's what happens to all of us!!


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## ssm (Oct 21, 2011)

lynn said:


> This is a really active and informative forum, so I'm sure you'll find a couple of things you want to post about! Before you know it, you'll be on here every day giving your ten pennyworth on all sorts of issues.... that's what happens to all of us!!


Well that's just what I need, another reason to procrastinate


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## lynn (Sep 25, 2008)

ssm said:


> Well that's just what I need, another reason to procrastinate


One thing I will say about the Student Finance application process is that it isn't easy or straightforward. I'm afraid that our experience was quite stressful, and we didn't know the position re finance until just before A level results were published in mid August.


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## ssm (Oct 21, 2011)

lynn said:


> One thing I will say about the Student Finance application process is that it isn't easy or straightforward. I'm afraid that our experience was quite stressful, and we didn't know the position re finance until just before A level results were published in mid August.


That is what I was afraid of - it has taken me about a week to find the bit on the website that you quoted - that's how I found this post. The stress of waiting for offers/results is going to be bad enough so I thought I'd start worrying about this early on, that way I might make it to this time next year without having a complete breakdown. I see some people are still waiting for it all to be sorted out - the student finance people have a facebook page and some poor folks seem quite distressed.


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