# What should be done with the valley of the fallen



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

El Valle de Los Caídos/ The Vally of the Fallen is where Franco and the Falangist leader Primo de Rivera are buried. It was built with the help of POWs by Franco and is a grey sombre place where Fascists gather on the 20 of November to remember Franco. Well, they would if it was still open, but it's been closed for a while now while it's decided what to do with the place, a very delicate matter.
_
"There is nothing else like it anywhere in the world," says one member of the latest commission, which includes historians, lawyers, philosophers and even a Benedictine monk. EL PAÍS has talked to the commission's members on how to convert this "monument to the war and national-Catholicism," in the words of its president, Socialist Party politician Ramón Jáuregui, "into a place of reconciliation."_

A valley for all of the fallen? · ELPAÍS.com in English


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2011)

Fascinating that there's talk of exhuming and re-burying Franco. 

I completely agree with Solé's comment that: "the Valley will be conserved as the pharaonic tomb that the dictator ordered to be built, an example of something that should never be allowed to happen again." 

Reading the quotes at the end of the article you can tell that this is still an open sore for many still living in Spanish society. I was talking about the Civil War and/or lack of talk about just what happened in schools and many families with my mother in law the other day. She told me that it wasn't until she was an adult and went to the _Valle_ with her children that she learned that she had a family member who had to build the monument. I don't want to say it's "too soon," but this is something very fresh in the memory for many. Heck, the other day grandma-in-law was in a tizzy because someone murdered a priest in a robbery and she was convinced that this was the start of another civil war.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

I'm dismayed that it's closed. Not for political motives, just because I was planning to go visit from a photography point of view

When did that happen.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Stravinsky said:


> I'm dismayed that it's closed. Not for political motives, just because I was planning to go visit from a photography point of view
> 
> When did that happen.


I think it closed late 2009 early 2010 Stravinsky. It's true the views are great, but the place is pretty creepy and you're never quite sure who you're standing next to up there!
According to this it was a very popular spot, getting more visits than the Royal Palace and the Monastery, which personally I find hard to believe

_El Valle de loa Caídos fue, durante la de 2008, el monumento más visitado de España, con 16.656 visitantes, por encima del monasterio de El Escorial y del Palacio Real de Madrid, según datos de Patrimonio Nacional._

The problem with keeping it open is that it will always be a place of congregation for the Fascists, although if you read Gile Tremletts "Ghosts of Spain" there's not to be feared of from them.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> The problem with keeping it open is that it will always be a place of congregation for the Fascists, although if you read Gile Tremletts "Ghosts of Spain" there's not to be feared of from them.



Yes, I read Ghosts of Spain, and it was actually that which made me want to go and see the place.

I guess we're lucky that no one knows where Hitlers remains ended up, as that would be even more of a draw.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Stravinsky;542378
I guess we're lucky that no one knows where Hitlers remains ended up said:


> Burnt and flushed away in a sewer in Magdeburg, according to Max Hastings.
> His teeth ended up in Moscow, apparently.
> 
> I think the monument should be like the Peace Museum in Caen, a town destroyed by its liberators in 1944.
> ...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

> The problem with keeping it open is that it will always be a place of congregation for the Fascists, although if you read Gile Tremletts "Ghosts of Spain" there's not to be feared of from them.
> __________________


Sorry, very badly written post. It should read like this more or less
The problem with keeping it open is that it will always be a place of congregation for the Fascists, although if you read Giles Tremletts "Ghosts of Spain" there's not too much to be feared of from them.
__________________


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2011)

Wow: 

The Government contacts Franco's family to remove his remains.


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

anyone wondering why this comes up just before elections? Which the PSOE are due to lose ...

Expect more 'garbage' to come from the Moncloa, about not renewing the nobility titles awarded by Franco etc.

And as 99% of the Spaniards say: who cares? It features VERY low on the list of priorities of Spanish.

Have a look at a blog (easily found in google) by Ricardo Saenz de Ynestrillas. Neither the PP nor anyone else is seriously (or even minimally) bothered by this. Though 99% of spaniards see through the electoral posturing of it.

Imho: let Franco where he is. It helps tourism in Cuelgamuros 

I still think that the execution of Primo de Rivera was one of the worst stupidities done by the Republic: had they released him to Franco, Franco would have been enormously and seriously embarrassed.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

mepossem said:


> anyone wondering why this comes up just before elections? Which the PSOE are due to lose ...
> 
> Expect more 'garbage' to come from the Moncloa, about not renewing the nobility titles awarded by Franco etc.
> 
> And as 99% of the Spaniards say: who cares? It features VERY low on the list of priorities of Spanish.


Hmmm ... well, maybe

But bearing in mind that at times family were fighting family, and bodies still remain buried at the side of the road from the atrocities many years ago, you try engaging a Spaniard in a discussion about Franco and the history of what happened. Many of them (the older population) just dont want to talk about it.


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

i ***think*** that the majority of spaniards under 20 have problems remembering who Franco was 

and when even Ricardo is not too keen on defending him (his allegiance goes more to José Antonio) ... whatever Zapatero - but don' t forget that wherever you put Franco, some are going to come and visit him (more than Zapatero's grave) ....


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mepossem said:


> i ***think*** that the majority of spaniards under 20 have problems remembering who Franco was
> 
> and when even Ricardo is not too keen on defending him (his allegiance goes more to José Antonio) ... whatever Zapatero - but don' t forget that wherever you put Franco, some are going to come and visit him (more than Zapatero's grave) ....


I agree with you about the young ones.

Obviously we're all supposed to know who Ricardo is, but I don't. I'm guessing it's not Ricardo el Corazón de León???????????


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

sorry, mentioned him before somewhere and he is 'quite' know with spaniards, particularly in this context. Saenz de Ynestrillas


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Sorry, very badly written post. It should read like this more or less
> The problem with keeping it open is that it will always be a place of congregation for the Fascists, although if you read Giles Tremletts "Ghosts of Spain" there's not too much to be feared of from them.
> __________________


There is always good reason to be afraid of fascists. But as long as they continue to have their little ceremony at El Valle, you can see who they are and keep an eye on them. 

I would turn it into a monument to the futility and destructiveness of the war, with a visitor centre like the one at Auschwitz that you have to pass through before getting to the tomb itself. The visitor centre should have examples not only of the atrocities people committed against each other, but also of the extraordinary courage they showed in helping each other.

Then it should be a compulsory school trip for all 16 year olds.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mepossem said:


> sorry, mentioned him before somewhere and he is 'quite' know with spaniards, particularly in this context. Saenz de Ynestrillas


Ahh.
Ynestrillas.
I'm not on first name terms with him


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

I happen to be .-)
Ricardo is not a bad guy - did actually do a number of good things 

though must admit doze off when he starts about national catholicism ....

check his blog from time to time - you may agree to some things there!



ps in Spain, Ricardo (in politics)... there's only one.
same as Don Manuel - also only one.
Jordi - the same.


:focus:


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> There is always good reason to be afraid of fascists. But as long as they continue to have their little ceremony at El Valle, you can see who they are and keep an eye on them.
> 
> I would turn it into a monument to the futility and destructiveness of the war, with a visitor centre like the one at Auschwitz that you have to pass through before getting to the tomb itself. The visitor centre should have examples not only of the atrocities people committed against each other, but also of the extraordinary courage they showed in helping each other.
> 
> Then it should be a compulsory school trip for all 16 year olds.


hmmm same goes for communists murderers like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Guevara etc. - always beware of people who think they hold the complete truth.

The monument is the Valle for the Fallen - of both sides. If Zapatero insists, I am sure a number of people would happily make space for him immediately.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mepossem said:


> I happen to be .-)
> Ricardo is not a bad guy - did actually do a number of good things
> 
> though must admit doze off when he starts about national catholicism ....
> ...


Or Felipe
or Gil y Gil...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mepossem said:


> The monument is the Valle for the Fallen - of both sides.


Supposedly...

Can't see it myself.


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Supposedly...
> 
> Can't see it myself.


well, go there and have a look 
I used to live for 5 years in San Lorenzo del Escorial, where a lot of people working in Cuelgamuros live. Unlike Garzón, they know that Franco died.


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Or Felipe
> or Gil y Gil...


hmmm slightly different ....
Sorry, but the 'beautiful' were rotten from the beginning to the end. Ricardo now completely left politics in reality, though he updates his blog etc. But something tells me his wife had a conversation with him 

It' s easy to say all politicians are rotten. But when they get serious about what they represent, we don' t like it either. What politicians do we really want?

I always keep saying Franco got dealt a very rotten hand once the 'revolution' started in 1934 and he tried to work it out the (limited) best he could imagine.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mepossem said:


> well, go there and have a look
> I used to live for 5 years in San Lorenzo del Escorial, where a lot of people working in Cuelgamuros live. Unlike Garzón, they know that Franco died.


I speak from experience mepossem. 
I can see the cross from where I live - where I've lived for 17 years.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

mepossem said:


> I always keep saying Franco got dealt a very rotten hand once the 'revolution' started in 1934 and he tried to work it out the (limited) best he could imagine.


Hmm ..... the best way he could imagine ..... well, from 2008 but I guess he must have had a hell of an imagination 

MADRID — A Spanish judge opened a criminal investigation Thursday into atrocities committed during the Spanish Civil War and the ensuing right-wing dictatorship, beginning the first official investigation into one of the darkest chapters in the nation's history.

Judge Baltasar Garzón of the National Court said in a 68-page writ that he had jurisdiction to investigate the execution or disappearance of tens of thousands of civilians during the 1936-39 war and under the rule of General Francisco Franco.

An estimated 500,000 people died in the civil war and both sides committed atrocities against civilians: supporters of Franco, the general who rose up against an elected, leftist Republican government and ultimately ousted it, and those who backed that government.

Spanish judge opens case into Franco's atrocities - The New York Times


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

Stravinsky said:


> Hmm ..... the best way he could imagine ..... well, from 2008 but I guess he must have had a hell of an imagination
> 
> MADRID — A Spanish judge opened a criminal investigation Thursday into atrocities committed during the Spanish Civil War and the ensuing right-wing dictatorship, beginning the first official investigation into one of the darkest chapters in the nation's history.
> 
> ...



hmmm you will find a number of people say the Guerra Civil started in 1934 in Asturias. Me included 

And yes, you can see on the N-VI the cross from ... the casino aproximately?

Incidentally, Garzón is now 'on holidays' including for the farce he started with his investigation. Seem to remember two other investigations against him, but his request for Franco's death certificate had everyone in Spain s******ing.


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

And saying that the US considered Franco an ally ...

Anyways, here in Catalunya, the only remaining Franco statue is somewhere well hidden in a basement, out of the public eye. I think it is wrong. Because erasing a memory will never work anyway. However, you can try to use it in such way to remind people to never let such things happen again. 

I lived in Berlin a year. The place where the Führerbunker was and where Hitler spent his last months, is now just a residential streets with newly built blocks. You'd need to really know where the bunker was or you'd not notice anything particular about the street. They erased all memories to avoid making it a neo-nazi pilgrimage destination.

I think the best way to tackle this sort of issues is the way it was done in Austria with Hitler's birth house. They put a stone in front of the house saying (translated from German) "Never again fascism, millions of dead are warning". They put the stone in such location that you cannot photograph the birth house of Hitler without the stone being on the picture. I think such thing is a good solution for every similar case. We should not portray Franco as a hero but erasing his memory won't work anyway. Another similar case are the Killing Fields in Cambodia where Pol Pot's victims were buried in mass graves.

Of course we also need to remember one thing: "one person's hero, is another person's villain". Franco still has supporters in Spain that support his ideology. I don't understand this, but these people are out there...


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

it's not only his ideology - which I sometimes doubt he had.
it's sometimes a recognition of the fact at least we did NOT have the communists here taking over - now what would have happened then?


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

I'm member of the communist party, so you're asking the wrong person I'm afraid as my answer would probably not be what you're hoping to read.

That said, trying to stop a common enemy, never justifies mass killings IMO. (and I very much know that the likes of Stalin and Pol Pot have been guilty of that too, hence why I refuse to associate myself with such people despite the tag "communist" applied to them)


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## Guest (Jun 15, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> There is always good reason to be afraid of fascists. But as long as they continue to have their little ceremony at El Valle, you can see who they are and keep an eye on them.
> 
> I would turn it into a monument to the futility and destructiveness of the war, with a visitor centre like the one at Auschwitz that you have to pass through before getting to the tomb itself. The visitor centre should have examples not only of the atrocities people committed against each other, but also of the extraordinary courage they showed in helping each other.
> 
> Then it should be a compulsory school trip for all 16 year olds.


I worked in the only town in Spain where the Fascist party still has a _consejal!_

You should've seen the elections posters. Gosh, that guy is old. They were limited in their distribution, slapped up on the abandoned old theater. It's also the town where there's still an enormous statue to Carillo Blanco - then again, he was their native son. My feeling is that fascism, there, is something for the old folks. Something pretty much hidden away at this point. The younger generations seemed to scoff at the fame their town had/has.

I completely agree with your idea for the Valle. Not sure I'd bring 16 year olds, though. Maybe a bit younger.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mepossem said:


> it's not only his ideology - which I sometimes doubt he had.
> it's sometimes a recognition of the fact at least we did NOT have the communists here taking over - now what would have happened then?


Well, I suppose we'd have had a democracy instead of a dictatorship. The Republic would have sorted itself out, given a few more years, and half a million people wouldn't have died needlessly. 

Or are you saying that if people elect a communist or socialist government, they have to be taught the error of their ways? Like in Chile?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

halydia said:


> I worked in the only town in Spain where the Fascist party still has a _consejal!_
> 
> You should've seen the elections posters. Gosh, that guy is old. They were limited in their distribution, slapped up on the abandoned old theater. It's also the town where there's still an enormous statue to Carillo Blanco - then again, he was their native son. My feeling is that fascism, there, is something for the old folks. Something pretty much hidden away at this point. The younger generations seemed to scoff at the fame their town had/has.
> 
> I completely agree with your idea for the Valle. Not sure I'd bring 16 year olds, though. Maybe a bit younger.


The Falange is still going strong. In 2007 they had two _consejales_ elected in Ardales (Malaga) - and the IU formed a pact with them!!!
Tortuga - Izquierda Unida y Falange Auténtica gobernarán juntos en el municipio malagueño de Ardales


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

I am sorry Alcalaina - but would suggest you read a bit on Spanish history.
And on the levantamiento in Asturias in 1934.
And in 1936 it started when Calvo Sotelo was killed - remember? And he was NOT killed by Franco's troops.
Read a bit 'Homage to Cataluña'. It may be an eye opener?

If you want some information on the benefits of communism I can ask my wife to post - her family is from Ukraine and her grandmother can still shudder at the thought of their holocaust, the holodomor (Holodomor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) - caused by the communists.
I for one still remember the figure of 60 million killed by Mao. Or the thousands killed by Che Guevara and Fidel in Cuba, or the hundreds of thousands killed in Ethiopia.

Democracy and communism? Don t let me laugh - as Lenin said, the masses have to be guided, we are all too stupid to think for ourselves. But then maybe he was right for some ...


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> The Falange is still going strong. In 2007 they had two _consejales_ elected in Ardales (Malaga) - and the IU formed a pact with them!!!
> Tortuga - Izquierda Unida y Falange Auténtica gobernarán juntos en el municipio malagueño de Ardales


this one is more interesting:

Resultados Electorales en Ardales: Elecciones Municipales 2011 en EL PAÍS

wonder where the votes went. the PSOE seems to fall even more!


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## Guest (Jun 15, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> The Falange is still going strong. In 2007 they had two _consejales_ elected in Ardales (Malaga) - and the IU formed a pact with them!!!
> Tortuga - Izquierda Unida y Falange Auténtica gobernarán juntos en el municipio malagueño de Ardales


I stand corrected. Sorry. I was told that "my" town was the last bastion of _falangistas_.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mepossem said:


> I am sorry Alcalaina - but would suggest you read a bit on Spanish history.
> And on the levantamiento in Asturias in 1934.
> And in 1936 it started when Calvo Sotelo was killed - remember? And he was NOT killed by Franco's troops.
> Read a bit 'Homage to Cataluña'. It may be an eye opener?
> ...


Please don't be patronising, I have read a LOT of history, Spanish and otherwise. I am not an apologist for Stalin. But please remember that if Britain and France had supported the Spanish government against the fascist insurgency, instead of officially turning a blind eye and then assisting Franco through the back door, the Republicans would not have been forced to turn to the Russians.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

halydia said:


> I stand corrected. Sorry. I was told that "my" town was the last bastion of _falangistas_.


Maybe it is! - they seem to have vanished from Ardales (or more likely they are disguised as PP). it still makes me puke that the IU could contemplate forming a pact with them though.


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> Please don't be patronising, I have read a LOT of history, Spanish and otherwise. I am not an apologist for Stalin. But please remember that if Britain and France had supported the Spanish government against the fascist insurgency, instead of officially turning a blind eye and then assisting Franco through the back door, the Republicans would not have been forced to turn to the Russians.


dear Alcalaina - sorry if I came over as patronising. But the sort of 'the poor guys from the republic' is imho (sorry) ridiculous.
The PSOE were at the time about as bad as the stalinist communists, etc. Read about the chekas in Madrid. And they did NOT need to ask for help from the Soviet Union. Shipping the spanish gold and selling it to the Soviet Union was enough.

The poor republicans were 'forced'. Hmmm wondering ... why they murdered Calvo Sotelo, why they started the uprising in Asturias in 1934, why they burnt and murdered at will in 1936. Probably you re going to tell us that they already foresaw that Britain and France would not love them :-( Probably Calvo Sotelo was forcing the hands of the Guardia de Asalto when he was killed? My God, no one has gone even that far in the suggestions.

Poor (republican) souls in Paracuellos. Fortunately enough they emptied the prisons in Madrid on time murdering everyone they could lay their hands on the keys.

OK- both sides had murderers on their hands, etc. But suggesting that the republicans should have been let a free hand? Sounds a bit like those still defending Stalin ... and I know quite a few ones of them.


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> Maybe it is! - they seem to have vanished from Ardales (or more likely they are disguised as PP). it still makes me puke that the IU could contemplate forming a pact with them though.


well, look at what happens in Extremadura: about anyone is better than the PSOE is the feeling of the bases of IU. 

I wonder why??????? :juggle:


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mepossem said:


> well, look at what happens in Extremadura: about anyone is better than the PSOE is the feeling of the bases of IU.
> 
> I wonder why??????? :juggle:


Because they have been sold down the river by the PSOE national government, who have swung to the right and are now embracing neoliberal financial policies, cutting public expenditure and signing away the country's future via the Pacto del Euro.


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> Because they have been sold down the river by the PSOE national government, who have swung to the right and are now embracing neoliberal financial policies, cutting public expenditure and signing away the country's future via the Pacto del Euro.


slightly erroneous (Euro) and understating the effect of local and regional government attitudes.

as in one case IU (local) said to the national IU representatives: do you honestly want us to agree with someone (PSOE mayor) whom we have denounced in the court as a fraudster?

Spain was living above its means - generally speaking. As was/is the UK. The PSOE is rightwing (or haven' t you noticed yet, over the last 30 years?).

You may be surprised but at the last elections, at the request of a friend in IU (or EU as they are called here) I was interventor for EU (can send you copy of the badge if you like). What struck me most in the (fairly affluent area of Alicante, PPlandia if you like) elections was not only the 10% of votes EU got in that area, but also (during the day) the condescending attitude of the PSOE people towards EU.

Oh, in Alicante the PSOE was halved ...

One wonders why EU doesn t like the PSOE? :juggle:


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## Guest (Jun 15, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> Maybe it is! - they seem to have vanished from Ardales (or more likely they are disguised as PP). it still makes me puke that the IU could contemplate forming a pact with them though.


Do some research on who has formed pacts with Bildu up here in the Basque Country. All sorts of surprises!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mepossem said:


> dear Alcalaina - sorry if I came over as patronising. But the sort of 'the poor guys from the republic' is imho (sorry) ridiculous.
> The PSOE were at the time about as bad as the stalinist communists, etc. Read about the chekas in Madrid. And they did NOT need to ask for help from the Soviet Union. Shipping the spanish gold and selling it to the Soviet Union was enough.
> 
> The poor republicans were 'forced'. Hmmm wondering ... why they murdered Calvo Sotelo, why they started the uprising in Asturias in 1934, why they burnt and murdered at will in 1936. Probably you re going to tell us that they already foresaw that Britain and France would not love them :-( Probably Calvo Sotelo was forcing the hands of the Guardia de Asalto when he was killed? My God, no one has gone even that far in the suggestions.
> ...


Look, I'm not denying there were atrocities committed by both sides. But even the most conservative historians estimate that for every Nationalist who died there were four Republicans, and that doesn't include the many thousands more who were slaughtered without trial in postwar reprisals, or starved to death (Andalucia had its famines too, punished by Franco in a way not unlike Stalin's treatment of the Ukraine).

The massacre of 4,000 nationalist militia and sympathisers at Paracuellos happened AFTER the civil war had started. The nationalists had already killed tens of thousands of Republican supporters across the country. It could be interpreted as an act of desperation and revenge, an act of war, however appalling the circumstances.

On the other hand the slaughter of 3,000 striking Asturian miners by Franco and his Moroccans in 1934 (two years before the war started) was pure butchery driven by an irrational hatred and fear of organised labour.

Anyway, nice talking to you but I must go and water the garden now.


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

interesting comments.

a. even the most conservative historians: hmmm can you quote me a few ones with references? 

b. you are right: what the PSOE will never forgive Franco is that he WON. That in itself is a criminal offense. For some ...

c. Andalucía famines like the Ukranian massacres? God, I hear the british 'intellectuals' visiting Ukraine and the Soviet Union in the thirties and saying how good Stalin was. Come on, where did you learn this? In the PSOE kindergarten?

d. PSOE is rightwing. Do you know where Felipe married Carmen Romero? Look it up. What her father was? The best reaction was in the 90s when one banker said: we have given the boys the keys to the cortijo and look at the mess they' ve made of it. Come on, PSOE is not socialist since 50 years (Suresnes).

e. Asturias - hmmm under (remember your words) a legitimate government. And it was not the government that started the uprising, or the killings. In 1934/36 there was a total sense of lawlessness (I am glad you do not charge Calvo Sotelo for having been shot or was that an oversight?)

f. what i find enormously funny - honestly - is how some PSOE supporters want to make them and the Republic (remember Ortega i Gasset in 1931?) as some kind 'holier than anyone'. Till early july 36 Franco offered the government to come on its side - if law and order be restored. The PSOE did not want it.

g. why does the PSOE not want ANY investigations on crimes committed in 34/39? Because they would be the ones paying .....



:clap2::clap2::clap2:


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

mepossem said:


> I am sorry Alcalaina - but would suggest you read a bit on Spanish history.
> And on the levantamiento in Asturias in 1934.
> And in 1936 it started when Calvo Sotelo was killed - remember? And he was NOT killed by Franco's troops.
> Read a bit 'Homage to Cataluña'. It may be an eye opener?
> ...



And what about the millions of deaths caused by right-wing fascist regimes? We're talking about ideologies here, the acts of a man is a separate issue. No communist will say Pol Pot, Stalin or Kim Il Sung are good people (Fidel and Che are different issues) but that doesn't mean they stand for everything that communism stands for. On the contrary, I would very much disagree that these folks are true communists.

And as for Lenin's quote: that quote is just spot on. Democracy does not work in its current form, and as long as populism is ongoing and people are easy to be influenced by populist propaganda, democracy will not work. 

I am a member of a communist movement/party myself ; I very much disassociate myself with the acts of Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, Kim Il Sung, ... But I very much believe in the ideology itself. The horrors of Stalin-era USSR are not representing the ideology of a true communist.


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

to have an idea how well educated some people are, read the reactions:

La hija de Franco se opone a que saquen a su padre del Valle de los Caídos | Política | EL PAS

If you don' t agree with my words (the ones I have been indoctrinated with), you should shut up.

Some habits die hard ....

The PSOE has found something to stir up the troops. Funnily enough, when tens and tens of parlamentarians in Barcelona are attacked, Rubalcaba and Zapatero are nowhere to be seen. But fighting a war some 75 years ago (or as Bono said, one that finished in 1975) seems more interesting ...



-


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

gerrit said:


> And what about the millions of deaths caused by right-wing fascist regimes? We're talking about ideologies here, the acts of a man is a separate issue. No communist will say Pol Pot, Stalin or Kim Il Sung are good people (Fidel and Che are different issues) but that doesn't mean they stand for everything that communism stands for. On the contrary, I would very much disagree that these folks are true communists.
> 
> And as for Lenin's quote: that quote is just spot on. Democracy does not work in its current form, and as long as populism is ongoing and people are easy to be influenced by populist propaganda, democracy will not work.
> 
> I am a member of a communist movement/party myself ; I very much disassociate myself with the acts of Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, Kim Il Sung, ... But I very much believe in the ideology itself. The horrors of Stalin-era USSR are not representing the ideology of a true communist.



ok let's reply

a) as I said before, Stalin still has his army of apologists. And if you ask me, Hitler was a result of the stupidities of the allies in 1918/1919. Had they been a bit more intelligent, Hitler would never have happened.
b) Che and Fidel - I would recommend you read about the mass murders (sorry, judicial killings) in Cuba in the 50s and the 60s... I still seem to remember there are regularly human rights activists put in jail in Cuba etc. etc. etc.
c) communism - sorry Gerrit - does not work. Nice theory, but for the rest ... Read about the chekas in Madrid, the killing of Nin, etc. Everywhere communists have taken power or tried to take power, there have been killings
d) I am glad you agree we are all to stupid to discuss these matters. We need an elite for that (not that different from the Führerprinzip is it?). Führer Cayo (the leader of IU), we await your orders. Pity in most places in Spain he is regarded as a person not to be followed.
e) compared to Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. etc., Pinochet (and even Franco) was an amateur killer. And as Kissinger said: the man is a *******, but he is our *******. 
Come on, compare 3000 Pinochet killings with 60 million Mao murders, some 30 million killed under Stalin - you make Pinochet and Franco stand out like simple inocuous amateurs.




:juggle:


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

For the record, "communist dictators taking over" is a nonsensical statement. Communism starts from the ground up, with the will of the people - hence the name, which refers to the community. If it is imposed from the top, it's just another form of fascism, or state-controlled capitalism in the case of the USSR after Stalin took over from Lenin. 

The Cuban revolution wasn't a communist takeover either; Guevara was never a communist, and Castro converted to Marxism much later. They were a small group of armed insurgents who successfully overthrew a corrupt government - they succeeded because they had the support of most of the population.

:focus: But let's all calm down a bit shall we, then maybe other people might have some comments about what should be done with the Valley of the Fallen?


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> For the record, "communist dictators taking over" is a nonsensical statement. Communism starts from the ground up, with the will of the people - hence the name, which refers to the community. If it is imposed from the top, it's just another form of fascism, or state-controlled capitalism in the case of the USSR after Stalin took over from Lenin.
> 
> The Cuban revolution wasn't a communist takeover either; Guevara was never a communist, and Castro converted to Marxism much later. They were a small group of armed insurgents who successfully overthrew a corrupt government - they succeeded because they had the support of most of the population.
> 
> :focus: But let's all calm down a bit shall we, then maybe other people might have some comments about what should be done with the Valley of the Fallen?



Alcalaina: there is NOT ONE single example of what you describe in history. Anarchism (as the way of getting to communism) was only in Spain and somewhat in Russia - and in both cases they were slaughtered by 'real communists'.

Try to find out one day why Lenin became such a fervent communist. It's actually quite funny: his brother tried to throw a bomb at the Czar. When he was executed for it, suddenly Vladimir Ilyich - who had been totally apolitical - suddenly became interested in Communism. It's a funny world - only cost some 100 million people their lives in Russia, China, etc.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mepossem said:


> to have an idea how well educated some people are, read the reactions:
> 
> La hija de Franco se opone a que saquen a su padre del Valle de los Caídos | Política | EL PAS
> 
> ...


You seem to have posted a link to a headline reporting that Franco's daughter doesn't want her father's remains moved. I don't think anyone on this thread has argued otherwise.

As for telling people to shut up, with respect, if you don't want people to disagree with you, don't make controversial statements on discussion forums.


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

Alcalaina 

a. the article - as I remark - in El País has some comments. It's to the comments (as I pointed out) that I refer.

b. we all know how freedom loving the left is, in favour of free expression of opinion, etc. etc. etc. BIG yawn.

c. on the reasons why people are fed up with the PSOE: how is Guerra's brother doing? What is the present activity of Chavez' daughter and son?

At least in Alicante we got rid of Ripoll - though the party won handsomely. Now only Sonia Castedo ...

d. When I was in the 60s and 70s in Spain, I remember seeing the works of Marx, Lenin etc. free on sale. Also that, after the nearly 20 year economic setback of the Guerra Civil, a middle class had sprung up. Something no (self styled) communist or socialist state has managed to do. Oh yes, except China - but are they still communist?

oh well, off to work - and leaving you to spread the propaganda. Actually, the health services here in Comunitat Valenciana are extremely good, even though managed by the PP (you know, those ultra right wing ogres). One week to get to a resonancia. How long would that take in socialist paradises?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

I think this zoo should have a "No Feeding" policy.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

mepossem said:


> to have an idea how well educated some people are, read the reactions:
> 
> La hija de Franco se opone a que saquen a su padre del Valle de los Caídos | Política | EL PAS
> 
> ...


Sounds as if you are a bit of a communist yourself. Don't you like being contradicted?
An interesting debate is taking place here, in case you hadn't noticed. Respect other people's opinions or disagree with them politely.
Now that, along with pomposity etc. is another British characteristic.
I was interested in your comments about Ukraine. This poor country suffered a triple blow: mass starvation and persecution in the mid-thirties under Stalin's collectivist policies, then occupation by the Nazis and finally being incorporated into the Soviet Union.
Millions died at the hands of Stalin and his henchmen.
Unfortunately there were far too many Ukrainians who for whatever reason collaborated with the Nazis, fought for them, staffed their extermination camps and were died-in-the-wool anti-Semites.
There are always two, or three or more ways of looking at a nation's history. The point of view of the victor in any battle is usually the one that has the greatest currency.
You quoted a work by my favourite author, George Orwell, who fought for the Trotskyite POUM in the Civil War. To paraphrase Orwell (from an essay on Salvador Dali) 'It is not given to one nation to have all the vices'.
To which I would add: 'or the virtues'.


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

mepossem said:


> ok let's reply
> 
> a) as I said before, Stalin still has his army of apologists. And if you ask me, Hitler was a result of the stupidities of the allies in 1918/1919. Had they been a bit more intelligent, Hitler would never have happened.
> b) Che and Fidel - I would recommend you read about the mass murders (sorry, judicial killings) in Cuba in the 50s and the 60s... I still seem to remember there are regularly human rights activists put in jail in Cuba etc. etc. etc.
> ...


Although I wonder why I even bother to argue given the emoticon, ...

a) Stalin has his defenders, so has Mao. These people are not representative of communism as a whole and I have yet to meet one who belongs to that army of defenders. I for one strongly disassociate myself from those people.
Hitler also still has his fans, but I won't claim every right-wing voter sympathises with the idea of an Aryan superior race... His defenders are not representative of right wing voters, just like Stalin does not represent the majority of communists.

b) Fidel made mistakes, but overall I consider him amongst the most respectable politicians in recent history. And if we want to focus on those things he did wrong, then it is very easy to also pick any random right-wing politician and I'm sure you'll find plenty of errors too. By the way, how many innocent people died during the illegal invasions of the US in the recent era? 
See, it is easy (but childish) to try to defend one's argument by stating another person committed even more crimes or has even more deaths on the counter. If people would discuss politics in that way, there's never an end because in every single ideology some wrong persons have been in power during a time and there is blood sticking to the hands of so many leaders ... The question is: does that make the ideology bad? Of course not. Stalin for example is in my opinion not a true communist and the acts he committed were committed in his own name, not in the name of communism. At least that is how I see it. North Korea idem dito (that isn't even a real communist state by the way, sidenote)

Those who are imprisoned are so because of treason mostly, a crime which carries a jail sentence in many countries both with leftist or right-wing regimes. 

c) I won't deny that communism has not been applied correctly (although Yugoslavia under Tito wasn't too bad and Cuba would be very well of if it wasn't for a very unfair embargo from a country that I consider a much bigger evil than the other countries named so far) but I prefer to strive to make it work, because I believe it can work. That it has not been applied correctly does not change my vision about the ideology in itself, so I prefer to look forward and try to make it work rather than to look back and lament.

Also, the capitalist bubble/illusion is bursting more every day. Not to mention that the system is unfair in its very foundations because it causes people being born without an honest chance in life, if it comes from a family in the lower layers of society. Exactly this problem is what communism can resolve. The ideology has nothing to do with dictatorships a la Stalin, and applying the theory correctly is what communists strive for (without denying the wrongdoings of previous communist regimes - we must learn from those mistakes in order to apply it correctly in the future)

Also, while you single out the wrongdoings of some leaders...
Lukashenko has a very poor record in human rights but economically he's excellent IMO.
Fidel has made mistakes, but Cuba still has the highest literacy rate and best healthcare of the area.
Mao indeed has a high death toll, but he did develop China's economy in a very rapid tempo.
Tito's Yugoslavia was a well respected state on both sides of the Iron Curtain, and on both sides of the Atlantic.

See, every coin has a reverse side. All right-wing leaders which you would probably praise, I'm sure have their dark sides too. In the end people believe in an ideology, and it's not because it has been applied wrongly in the past that the ideology itself is wrong.

d) I don't believe in democracy, just like you don't believe in communism. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree. If I look at election results and electoral campaigns overall in present day Europe, then indeed I believe the people are not ready for being in control. Power to the people is nice in theory, if they are capable to deal with that power. Now look at how far right parties with xenophobic mindsets get high scores in elections. In my native country and several other ones ... This took away the last bit of belief I had in democracy. I support the one-party system.

e) I have yet to meet a single other communist who likes of sympathises with Pol Pot or Stalin. I also wish to add that the former king of my native country caused about 10million deaths in Congo with his regime of slavery, and that that same royal family is still leading the country now. Something I am very ashamed of. Does this make the entire Belgium bad? Is Germany a bad nation because they had Hitler in the past? Is the USA an axis of evil because of the deaths Bush caused in Afghanistan and Iraq? Are all Israelis bad because Netanyahu is refusing to work towards a long-lasting peace in the Middle East?
Every single ideology, country or political system can be easily blackmailed by taking the acts of a person as standard for the entire system. The acts of Stalin and Pol Pot do NOT represent communism, they represent their respective regimes which no sane communist will ever sympathise with.


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## Morten (Apr 20, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> Unfortunately there were far too many Ukrainians who for whatever reason collaborated with the Nazis, fought for them, staffed their extermination camps and were died-in-the-wool anti-Semites.


You cant really blame Ukraine and other eastern european countries for celebrating the nazis as liberators...for a start. As you said, Stalin had dealt them a brutal and deadly hand, at the time any alternative would seem preferable. 

Ive seen historians argue that if the nazis had employed a more inclusive tactic in the east, ie kill the jews but let the rest of the populations believe theyre fighting for liberty from the Soviets, they could largely have taken on Barbarossa without the use of western troops and as such potentially have swayed the balance of power.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> For the record, "communist dictators taking over" is a nonsensical statement. Communism starts from the ground up, with the will of the people - hence the name, which refers to the community. If it is imposed from the top, it's just another form of fascism, or state-controlled capitalism in the case of the USSR after Stalin took over from Lenin.
> 
> The Cuban revolution wasn't a communist takeover either; Guevara was never a communist, and Castro converted to Marxism much later. They were a small group of armed insurgents who successfully overthrew a corrupt government - they succeeded because they had the support of most of the population.
> 
> :focus: But let's all calm down a bit shall we, then maybe other people might have some comments about what should be done with the Valley of the Fallen?


Since, unlike some obvious right-wingers, you and I can have a sensible debate, I'd like to take issue with some of your post.
I'd dispute that Communism has ever arisen from the 'will of the people' It has always been imposed by some kind of force and run by the 'vanguard'. No communist or truly socialist party has ever won power in free elections. After the experience of socialism, electorates across the world have decisively rejected it when given the opportunity.
Lenin was no more of a democrat than Stalin. He too ordered murder to implement his objectives. He implemented his New Economic Policy allowing some free enterprise because of the obvious failure of his economic policies. Stalin was more willing to murder more people than Lenin to achieve his objective of mass industrialisation and the concommitant collectivisation of agriculture.
As for the support of 'most of the population'....we can never know how true that is/was since on grabbing power, the first thing socialist/communist regimes do is to silence opposition and curb dissent.
Fascism, communism/socialism.....political religions springing from the dark Romantic side of Enlightenment philosophy.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Morten said:


> You cant really blame Ukraine and other eastern european countries for celebrating the nazis as liberators...for a start. As you said, Stalin had dealt them a brutal and deadly hand, at the time any alternative would seem preferable.
> 
> Ive seen historians argue that if the nazis had employed a more inclusive tactic in the east, ie kill the jews but let the rest of the populations believe theyre fighting for liberty from the Soviets, they could largely have taken on Barbarossa without the use of western troops and as such potentially have swayed the balance of power.


Where did I blame them? I stated it as a fact...although I think mass killing whether by right or left is worthy of blame.
Yes, it's possible that what you say in your second paragraph could be true, given the prevalence of anti-Semitism in Eastern Europe.
But would you really have welcomed a German-dominated Europe where extermination camps for Jews, Roma, homosexuals and other 'undesirables' and concentration camps for political opponents were an instrument of domestic policy?
When offered the opportunity to negotiate va separate peace with Hitler in 1940, Britain, although then alone in the fight against Nazi Germany, turned the offer down.
I'm no great Union Jack waving patriot but I'm proud of that.
After all, along with the rest of the Allies, that refusal saved your country and others from living under the heel of the jackboot.
You wouldn't have wanted that.


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## Morten (Apr 20, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> Where did I blame them? I stated it as a fact...although I think mass killing whether by right or left is worthy of blame.
> Yes, it's possible that what you say in your second paragraph could be true, given the prevalence of anti-Semitism in Eastern Europe.
> But would you really have welcomed a German-dominated Europe where extermination camps for Jews, Roma, homosexuals and other 'undesirables' and concentration camps for political opponents were an instrument of domestic policy?
> When offered the opportunity to negotiate va separate peace with Hitler in 1940, Britain, although then alone in the fight against Nazi Germany, turned the offer down.
> ...


"Far too many" passes judgement obviously ... I for one would probably phrase it "Some but surprisingly few" ... however that aside, no of course not, the historical point was that the nazis could have played into anti-semitism and nationalism in Eastern Europe and thus vastly strengthened their empire and chances in the war. They chose not to. Im rather pleased with that.

I do cringe a bit whenever I hear the western allies, normally proclaimed by proud brits, stating how their country stood up as a light in the dark, fought without compromise for freedom and liberated Europe from evil oppressors. Yes, the nazis were evil, however, IMO it was a war without many good guys on any side - or many positive outcomes. 

Would I rather see Churchill as head of state than Hitler? Absolutely. Would I want them both locked up forever as war criminals? Definitely.

Hitlers genocides and terror speak for themselves. But so does atrocities committed versus civilians and POWs by the western allies and Russia...and so does the western prison camps, the deliberate ignoring of the holocaust, selling out allies to the nazis in the leadup to the war, passive support for Franco, inventing the carpet bombing of civilians was another proud british achievement, making a pact with Stalin who was every bit as murderous and genocidal towards "underiserables" as Hitler ... and it all led to cold war, chaos in a long line of colonies, the confiscation of Palestine and creation of the rather dubious state of Israel whilst the british allowed rather openly executed mass-murder of the arabs - by jews, which subsequently has led to a never ending and unsolveable middle-eastern conflict. The list continues forever


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

Morten, you left out one little detail: how till the end of the summer of 1941, the communists in Western Europe were helping the nazis with all their force - after all, Uncle Jozef (who still is regarded as in the top 10 of greatest people in Russia) had made an agreement, so the communists had to help - or not?


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

seems the mossos do not agree with the comment on youtube ...

Los Mossos denuncian imágenes 'manipuladas' de los 'indignados' | Barcelona | elmundo.es


for me, they go either too far or not far enough. But trying to take away a guide dog from someone because 'he's from CiU' goes a bit too far. As goes going to Ruiz Gallardón's house and encircling him ...

-


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

Gerrit, it really costs people a lot of problems to refer to the mass murders in Cuba in 59 and 60 and to admit them, doesn' it?

And expropiating all US goods in Cuba, and then hoping they will not react is a bit childish?

As is trying to install missiles and atomic weapons in Cuba and saying you' re not a communist?


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## Morten (Apr 20, 2011)

mepossem said:


> Morten, you left out one little detail: how till the end of the summer of 1941, the communists in Western Europe were helping the nazis with all their force - after all, Uncle Jozef (who still is regarded as in the top 10 of greatest people in Russia) had made an agreement, so the communists had to help - or not?


Do you have something solid on that? I have heard it mentioned previously (and obviously denied by communists) and it makes some logical sense - however I havent seen any proof of large scale nazi supporting efforts by western communist parties. And against such a phenomenon of course speaks the rather brutal treatment of communists in Germany in the 30s and the occupied territories since then.


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

Morten said:


> Do you have something solid on that? I have heard it mentioned previously (and obviously denied by communists) and it makes some logical sense - however I havent seen any proof of large scale nazi supporting efforts by western communist parties. And against such a phenomenon of course speaks the rather brutal treatment of communists in Germany in the 30s and the occupied territories since then.


not talking about Germany, but about Belgium and France. It's well hidden but e.g. my mother knew perfectly what and how. And you can check 'las hemerotecas' on how they cooperated.


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## Morten (Apr 20, 2011)

mepossem said:


> not talking about Germany, but about Belgium and France. It's well hidden but e.g. my mother knew perfectly what and how. And you can check 'las hemerotecas' on how they cooperated.


Obviously, wasnt thinking Germany - however, you would think that the nazi treatment of german communists (and from 39-41 treatment of communists in occupied territories) would deter the movement from supporting activities in neighbouring countries. Afterall, communists were routinely and rather openly sent to concentration camps, prosecuted, murdered etc. 

Admittedly, communist parties have shown an incredible willingness to ignore even the most obvious contradictions when ordered to do so from Moscow. As such, that could of course well be the case.

Are you certain though that the support wasnt unintentional and indirect? In the sense for instance that belgian and french communists were working towards undermining the sitting governments, the capitalist system etc - and as such they may have deliberately weakened the governments and as such paved the way, however that latter effect being unintentional rather than dictated from Moscow. You would think for instance that documents would have emerged in the Kremlin archives of such activities and orders.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Morten said:


> Do you have something solid on that? I have heard it mentioned previously (and obviously denied by communists) and it makes some logical sense - however I havent seen any proof of large scale nazi supporting efforts by western communist parties. And against such a phenomenon of course speaks the rather brutal treatment of communists in Germany in the 30s and the occupied territories since then.


Google: Comintern, Popular Front.
Right up to the invasion of Russia in 1941 the Communist Parties of Europe opposed the war. Of course they did...it was the Party Line. 
In pre-Nazi Germany NSDAP and the KPD worked together to block the SPD and other moderate parties.
The European Communist Parties supported the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact and had to do an embarassing volte-face when Hitler attacked Stalin.
Communists, Fascists....no difference.
Substitute 'volk' for 'proletariat'.......


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Morten said:


> "Far too many" passes judgement obviously ... I for one would probably phrase it "Some but surprisingly few" ... however that aside, no of course not, the historical point was that the nazis could have played into anti-semitism and nationalism in Eastern Europe and thus vastly strengthened their empire and chances in the war. They chose not to. Im rather pleased with that.
> 
> I do cringe a bit whenever I hear the western allies, normally proclaimed by proud brits, stating how their country stood up as a light in the dark, fought without compromise for freedom and liberated Europe from evil oppressors. Yes, the nazis were evil, however, IMO it was a war without many good guys on any side - or many positive outcomes.
> 
> ...


I think one violent death is 'far too many'.
Whilst agreeing with the broad thrust of the rest of your post, you lump too many things together and give them equal ranking. I think there are degrees of evil.
But I especially agree with what you say about the Arab/Israeli question.
I've just read an excellent book by a British scholar, Timothy Snyder: 'Bloodlands:Europe between Hitler and Stalin'. I think it would interest you and your English is certainly up to reading it in English, although it may be translated into Danish.


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

Stalin (yes him)

one million killed is a statistic.
one person killed is a personal matter to be taken seriously

or something like that ...

how many Bengalis were killed during the hunger periods in WWII with Churchill commenting 'no problem, in any case they breed like rabbits'.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

mepossem said:


> Stalin (yes him)
> 
> one million killed is a statistic.
> one person killed is a personal matter to be taken seriously
> ...


I'm not sure what is achieved by playing ping-pong with atrocities.
Only the very naive think that one side- usually theirs - has a monopoly of virtue.
Chiurchill (with a little help from those in uniform) played a major role in defeating National Socialism. I'm grateful for that.
He was responsible for many things I abhor - firing on striking Welsh miners in Tonypandy in 1910 being one of them.
This game of 'your dictator/party is more monstrous than mine' is childish, don't you think?


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> I'm not sure what is achieved by playing ping-pong with atrocities.
> Only the very naive think that one side- usually theirs - has a monopoly of virtue.
> Chiurchill (with a little help from those in uniform) played a major role in defeating National Socialism. I'm grateful for that.
> He was responsible for many things I abhor - firing on striking Welsh miners in Tonypandy in 1910 being one of them.
> This game of 'your dictator/party is more monstrous than mine' is childish, don't you think?


it basically only has a single purpose: to show there are problems on all sides :-( and that is basic if you want a good conversation ...
Valle de los Caídos - it figures VERY low on the Spaniard's collective memory and only gets out when the socialist government is falling in the opinion polls. Leave the man where he is imho, there are worse problems in this world.


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## Morten (Apr 20, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> I think one violent death is 'far too many'.
> Whilst agreeing with the broad thrust of the rest of your post, you lump too many things together and give them equal ranking. I think there are degrees of evil.
> But I especially agree with what you say about the Arab/Israeli question.
> I've just read an excellent book by a British scholar, Timothy Snyder: 'Bloodlands:Europe between Hitler and Stalin'. I think it would interest you and your English is certainly up to reading it in English, although it may be translated into Danish.


Agreed, all those events deserve their own place in history, description and ranking from "ah that was a bit naughty" to "atrocious acts against mankind". The point merely was that theres a variety of actions, inactions and consequences of both reflecting poorly on either side of the fence.

Cheers for the recommendation though, does sound extremely interesting - just grabbing it from Amazon now


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Morten said:


> Agreed, all those events deserve their own place in history, description and ranking from "ah that was a bit naughty" to "atrocious acts against mankind". The point merely was that theres a variety of actions, inactions and consequences of both reflecting poorly on either side of the fence.
> 
> Cheers for the recommendation though, does sound extremely interesting - just grabbing it from Amazon now


I think that you will find it very interesting.

I also think you would like to read some of John Gray's work......try 'False Dawn: the delusion of Global Capitalism' and 'Black Mass: the Rise of Apocalyptic Religion and the Death of Utopia'.
He is a political philosopher currently at University College London University, my old alma mater.
I bought those and other works by him in paperback, second-hand, from amazon but they fell to bits in the heat so I bought hardback copies very cheaply.
Of course you are right that no one side has a monopoly of virtue. Bad things are often done to get good results and it's easy (and enjoyable) to criticise with the benefit of hindsight.
As your English is so good I'm sure you'll also understand and agree with Jean-Paul Sartre when he wrote:_ 'Pour vivre, il faut plonger les mains jusqu'au cou dans la merde'._
Even that old poseur got it right very occasionally.


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

is that the old Moorgate you are talking about?


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## Morten (Apr 20, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> I think that you will find it very interesting.
> 
> I also think you would like to read some of John Gray's work......try 'False Dawn: the delusion of Global Capitalism' and 'Black Mass: the Rise of Apocalyptic Religion and the Death of Utopia'.
> He is a political philosopher currently at University College London University, my old alma mater.
> ...


Admittedly, alot of the western sins were those of doing nothing, turning the blind eye etc rather than the proactive atrocities carried out on the other side. However, not exclusively, and whilst of course no light shines as bright as hindsight, a disturbing number of western ally actions were objectively evil and/or had foreseeable negative consequences.

Ie passive support for Franco, ignoring holocaust ec - yes, bad in hindsight, selling out allies, maybe justifiable in the given circumstances. Ordering the carpet bombing of civilians, allowing mass-murder of palestinians, mistreating POWs etc - evil at the time and with hindsight.

I think where we may differ is that I get the gist that youre saying "Yes ok, a few atrocities were committed but it was all with the purpose of achieving something good - and as such justified." ... I beg to differ. In reality we need hindsight too to determine who was the good guys and who were the monsters, its a definition we came up with as the victors wrote the history books. At the time, both sides could have prevailed, either side committed atrocities - it was a powerstruggle, not a good vs evil situation. Had Hitler won the war would the same argument have applied? "Ah yes, Hitler was a bit nasty there and then, but lets not get too uptight and dwell in the hindsight of what could have been done differently, afterall he achieved his goals and it was all for the common good" ... giving up humanity to live is not justified

Sartre in his original language...thats pushing my luck! But ... as he said "if a victory is told in detail, one can no longer distinguish it from a defeat."


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

I love Churchill: History is going to be kind to me on WWII - because I will write it.

One thing (it's a podcast on the BBC, I think the 4th june): at Gettysburg 80% of soldiers refused to shoot on other human beings. Seems to be a recurring % in most wars.

It' s an information that somehow restored my faith in human beings ...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

mepossem said:


> I love Churchill: History is going to be kind to me on WWII - because I will write it.
> 
> One thing (it's a podcast on the BBC, I think the 4th june): at Gettysburg 80% of soldiers refused to shoot on other human beings. Seems to be a recurring % in most wars.
> 
> It' s an information that somehow restored my faith in human beings ...


Are you posting all this when you should be working? If you were one of my employees you'd be receiving your P45
Lucky you to have such time on your hands and such an unpressured stress-free job....
As for your '80% refusing to shoot'....the remaining 20% more than made up for their lack of vigour.


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

Oh well, waiting for things to happen ...
you often need to leave some time to others, you need to think a file through - and (in all honesty) we are not writing here life shattering conclusions.

As I said last week to someone who got his sentence cut from 10 to 3 years: we talk about a year more, a year less as though nothing important is happening.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Morten said:


> Admittedly, alot of the western sins were those of doing nothing, turning the blind eye etc rather than the proactive atrocities carried out on the other side. However, not exclusively, and whilst of course no light shines as bright as hindsight, a disturbing number of western ally actions were objectively evil and/or had foreseeable negative consequences.
> 
> Ie passive support for Franco, ignoring holocaust ec - yes, bad in hindsight, selling out allies, maybe justifiable in the given circumstances. Ordering the carpet bombing of civilians, allowing mass-murder of palestinians, mistreating POWs etc - evil at the time and with hindsight.
> 
> ...


Hindsight is merely that, though....hindsight.
In time of war there is one objective shared by both sides.....the desire to win.
The pre-war British Government had many faults....sympathising with Hitler through fear of Stalin, supporting Franco...not to mention its domestic policies.
But put Stalin, Hitler and Franco against Churchill, Attlee and Chamberlain .....
The bombing campaign propagated by 'Bomber 'Harris is an interesting example of the point you made. 
Until the Allied invasion in June 1944 the only offensive action possible on the Western Front was saturation bombing which aimed to destroy not only production facilities but to kill and demoralise citizens.. There was dissent at the time...the criticisms from some senior clergy, most notably the Bishop of Chichester. To this day there is embarassment surrounding Harris' reputation. But the British public needed to believe that Germany was suffering... my own grandmother, normally a gentle old soul, told me how she used to say with grim satisfaction 'Jerry's getting it tonight' as she saw bombers fly overhead on route to Koln, Dusseldorf, wherever. The fact her own house was damaged as a result of enemy action may have had some effect on her views, though
The bombing of German towns and cities in 1945 is another case in point as is the destruction of French cities such as Caen in the name of liberation. The duty of a commander in war is to achieve his objective with minimal casualties on his own side....
Shame you live so far away....it's always good to debate with an informed person whose basic values are more or less your own.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

mepossem said:


> Oh well, waiting for things to happen ...
> you often need to leave some time to others, you need to think a file through - and (in all honesty) we are not writing here life shattering conclusions.
> 
> As I said last week to someone who got his sentence cut from 10 to 3 years: we talk about a year more, a year less as though nothing important is happening.


Depends, doesn't it....
When we were in business we preferred to *make* things happen.
You are lucky that your work is so unimportant. The livelihoods of our employees depended on our being able to pay their wages.
We could not afford to 'leave some time to others'.


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> Depends, doesn't it....
> When we were in business we preferred to *make* things happen.
> You are lucky that your work is so unimportant. The livelihoods of our employees depended on our being able to pay their wages.
> We could not afford to 'leave some time to others'.




I play a lot of chess. Quite often it is more important there and in real life, to have OTHERS make a move that will damn them. This sort of youthfully shouting 'I am going to make things happen' has passed me by some time ago.

If - as I am at the moment - negotiating which will reflect and have consequences for years to come, it (honestly) is often very important to make OTHERS (e.g. the prosecutor) come up first. And yes, make them wait some time.

When I go to Spanish administration, I make a point of always carrying a spanish newspaper and fill in the (spanish) crossword in front of them. Reasons:
- it helps spending the time
- it makes it clear I have more time than them
- no, I am not annoyed if they delay something
- yes, I speak fluent spanish
- yes, your thing is not THAT important

It helps them to concentrate.

It' s all a game of chess really: business, law, negotiating ...
If you show too much interest, you lose.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

mepossem said:


> I play a lot of chess. Quite often it is more important there and in real life, to have OTHERS make a move that will damn them. This sort of youthfully shouting 'I am going to make things happen' has passed me by some time ago.
> 
> If - as I am at the moment - negotiating which will reflect and have consequences for years to come, it (honestly) is often very important to make OTHERS (e.g. the prosecutor) come up first. And yes, make them wait some time.
> 
> ...


You obviously know about that.....
Has it ever occurred to you what these people think of you?
You really cannot be as self-important and oblivious of that fact in real life as you appear to be...
It's funny..


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> You obviously know about that.....
> Has it ever occurred to you what these people think of you?
> You really cannot be as self-important and oblivious of that fact in real life as you appear to be...
> It's funny..


try to read one day Lara ' Vuelva Vd. Mañana ...' It's a great book to bring along when standing in front of a funcionario. Particularly (as happens sometimes) he knows the contents of it ...

Keep smiling


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

if you studied at the City of London Polytechnic (where incidentally I also did study at some time) why do you say University College London is your old alma mater?
What did you study there?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

mepossem said:


> if you studied at the City of London Polytechnic (where incidentally I also did study at some time) why do you say University College London is your old alma mater?
> What did you study there?


I wouldn't have bothered to reply but nowhere did I say I studied at City of London Poly. I went to UNIVERSITY not a Polytechnic.
For your information I studied at Southampton University (German) and then at University College London University.
Now....we have hijacked this thread because of your nonsense. Having nothing better to do I enjoyed myself responding to you.
I should have known better. You are a troll, probably unemployed and with time on your hands.
Apologies to PW and others. I shall exercise more self-control in future..
Mods, please don't delete this post.


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

ok, it just seemed strange.
what's wrong with polytechnics and why are you (your words) so defensive? Just a simple question.

I would think the actual thread's subject was diverted some time ago. I reposted my position on the Valle de los Caídos, hoping for some intelligent interchange, but this seems not to happen. Can someone inform me why the PSOE brings up this matter when talk is of elections at the end of the year?

My Spanish friends have an idea about it .....


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Since nobody has mentioned the Valley of the Fallen in the last five pages, perhaps this thread should be closed now? 

Shame, it was an interesting topic ...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Back on topic:

As I said earlier, the monument should be left as it is but a Museum of Peace should be built alongside it.
Not all those who fought for Franco were bloodthirsty butchers and not all committed atrocities which as has been pointed out were committed by both sides. Wars are like that.
I would hazard a guess that many were conscripts, some were sincere but misguided, some were motivated by a reasonable fear of Communism.
There are many examples of Peace Museums in places which have been devastated by war -Caen as I mentioned and Bapaume, both in France.
Auschwitz/Birkenau has been mentioned: I visited this site in 1969 and again in 2005. There have been changes there since the demise of Communism in Poland, not all for the better.
The vast sites which are separated by a couple of km have become something of a tourist attraction, a day out. Unlike the two museums I mentioned above, it seems lacking in a kind of reverence...sorry, can't describe what I mean...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Since nobody has mentioned the Valley of the Fallen in the last five pages, perhaps this thread should be closed now?
> 
> Shame, it was an interesting topic ...


I just did.
It is interesting and provokes thought about war memorials in general.
It's interesting to see each different country's 'style' of war memorial.
French, Polish, British, Czech, Spanish....all different and all seen in different lights.


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> Since nobody has mentioned the Valley of the Fallen in the last five pages, perhaps this thread should be closed now?
> 
> Shame, it was an interesting topic ...



I did, five minutes ago 
and yesterday 


-:ranger:


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## mepossem (May 28, 2011)

has anyone here read (no, not seen the film which is bad) Soldados de Salamina?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I just did.
> It is interesting and provokes thought about war memorials in general.
> It's interesting to see each different country's 'style' of war memorial.
> French, Polish, British, Czech, Spanish....all different and all seen in different lights.


Yes, some are very dramatic and elaborate but sometimes a simple plaque has just as much impact.

Like the one at Trafalgar (a huge offshore war grave), honouring the dead on all sides and praying that such events never be repeated.

Sometimes you get British tourists turning up expecting something like Nelson's column!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, some are very dramatic and elaborate but sometimes a simple plaque has just as much impact.
> 
> Like the one at Trafalgar (a huge offshore war grave), honouring the dead on all sides and praying that such events never be repeated.
> 
> Sometimes you get British tourists turning up expecting something like Nelson's column!


I went to the Valley when Franco was alive....creepy. Franco and Salazar..the last outposts of European Fascism. 
I used to take students on trips to the Somme battlefields. I hope the effect it had on them when they were there was lasting. 
My mother was widowed after my father died after the war from injuries sustained when he was on Malta during the siege. I scarcely remember him, I was very tiny.
Our family also lost young men at Arnhem, on the Rhine and on the Thousand Bomber Raid over Cologne. One of my German friends lost family in that raid.
Violence sickens me. I am aggressive only at the keyboard.


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

mepossem said:


> Gerrit, it really costs people a lot of problems to refer to the mass murders in Cuba in 59 and 60 and to admit them, doesn' it?
> 
> And expropiating all US goods in Cuba, and then hoping they will not react is a bit childish?
> 
> As is trying to install missiles and atomic weapons in Cuba and saying you' re not a communist?


I don't deny the murders that happened in Cuba, where did I deny that? Nevertheless, I support the Cuban regime for other reasons. You can support an ideology or a regime without actually ignoring the wrongs it has done. I never said Fidel is an angel, or that nothing wrong happened during his rule.

Except for the US (the country that invaded more countries than any other state in the world) and Israel, the whole UN condemns the Cuba embargo. What did you expect they'd do with US property in Cuba? Cuba under Batista's rule was a large brothel, gambling house and beach resort for mainly Americans, and locals were exploited to large extent. The Cuban revolution was the right thing and I fully support that it happened. The American exploitation of the locals had to end. Other than the revolution, Cuba never invaded any other country. The US to the contrary... Not that I am trying to bash the States here, I am however on Cuba's side when it comes to this particular issue. 

And I know very well about the missiles on the island. The USSR put them there in return for support to Cuba. Fair enough I'd say, because what was Cuba supposed to do in full cold war and as only socialist state in the area? Wait until an invasion would come? It never actually used those missiles, but defending its own soil is the very right of the state. I am not a proponent of nuclear weapons, but in that time (cold war raging) it was not the most unlogical move. Ideally NO country would have any of such weapons, they are dangerous toys when in the wrong hands. But if an ideological counterpart not that far away off your coast is lurking around the corner with exactly that type of weapons, what is a country supposed to do? 

We see the same thing happen in the Middle East right now. Do I like Iran having extremely powerful weapons? No. But if Israel and the US have them, then they're not in the position to say Iran cannot have them and should just surrender without defending itself as soon as it's invaded. The countries who have used such weapons seem to claim a monopoly on this type of weapons while the countries who have them but never used them are not supposed to be prepared to defend themselves? That is absurd. In an ideal world, no country should have any missiles or nuclear weapons, but maybe those countries who have already used them should take the initiative to dismantle their arsenal too before complaining that other countries have their own arsenal too. The coin has two sides ...

By the way, Americans have still been installing missiles in other countries far beyond the cold war's end. Recently there were talks of it in Turkey, Poland, and the Czech Republic (the latter much to the dislike of the locals). Israel has a very strong arsenal but peace talks should be subject to the Palestinian state being armless? Then fair enough, ideally Palestine will not have arms. But Israel shouldn't have them neither. 

And I am a communist and member of a communist party. You are putting words in my mouth I never said, or in the latter case, never denied.

Sorry for taking this off topic once more and I won't further react for the sake of not hijacking this thread, but I do think I have the right to react if words are put in my mouth which I never said.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

:focus:
This video explains (in English) the history and issues surrounding the Valle. The presenter argues that it is primarily a religious monument, symbolising the power of the Catholic church in Spain, rather than a tribute to Franco or fascism, although to my mind these are inextricably linked.

It has the highest cross in the world - 150 metres - and a basilica hewn out of granite that is larger than St Peters in Rome.


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