# Indigenous Conflict in the Chiapas Highlands



## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

yes I was told yesterday in the municipality of Tenejapa to go to the authoritues to ask if land was available to a non indigenous... that mean indigenous authority and that is in chiapas at least a forget it..yesterday the authority were barely speaking and were very reluctant to tell me where the director of the casa de la cultura was or lived.. although I already had the information from a taxi driver... I know from the locals that the President told the town not to encourage the coming of tourists so i do not think buying there would be a great idea.. The area arounf Chacoma is spectacular, a real paradise but I would not buy on a bet and as I said forget about performing arts unless you totally go native..
Yesterday I was woring in the mountains the day started beautifully I was wearing a huipil and had to stay in the shade, then I had to have a sweater a couple of hours later around 2 it started rainingno the sky opened.. it was impossible to see outside mud was coming down , it got cold we were in the kitchen dying wool and 2 fogones were going and I had a jacket inside.. it also was partly raining inside, it was miserable.. we left around 4 and it was freezing. The road was really dangerous because of rocks that had gone down... and that is the weather in one day at 2100 meters/ There is a reason why it is so green and beautiful,


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Even if you are no where near a caracol beware.. the indigenous culture down here is very protective of their land and very envious of anyone including other indigenous stay away from ownership in indigenous areas, the tone can turn on a dime and then there is trouble. You have the Usos and costumbres limits and the official government limits and often the two do not correspond and there you have mini wars.. Right now a friend of mine kyst called me to tell me that the next comunity had burned the school , cut off the electricity and destroyed a bunch of houses, he could not get out and his batery was running out He told me he would try to get out saturday but was not sure he could and could not communicate..So we will see tomorrow if he is alive and still has a house... He is a young indigenous, imagine being an outsider and finding yourself in that situation, the paramilitary groups have no pity, they shoot first. Right now they are shooting tracer bullets, the kind you see at night and also the kind that explode.. it is all about land ownership and there are no Zapatistas in that one, it is all between PRI and VERDE and government official limits and usos and costumbres limits.


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos (Apr 17, 2014)

citlali said:


> Even if you are no where near a caracol beware.. the indigenous culture down here is very protective of their land and very envious of anyone including other indigenous stay away from ownership in indigenous areas, the tone can turn on a dime and then there is trouble. You have the Usos and costumbres limits and the official government limits and often the two do not correspond and there you have mini wars.. Right now a friend of mine kyst called me to tell me that the next comunity had burned the school , cut off the electricity and destroyed a bunch of houses, he could not get out and his batery was running out He told me he would try to get out saturday but was not sure he could and could not communicate..So we will see tomorrow if he is alive and still has a house... He is a young indigenous, imagine being an outsider and finding yourself in that situation, the paramilitary groups have no pity, they shoot first. Right now they are shooting tracer bullets, the kind you see at night and also the kind that explode.. it is all about land ownership and there are no Zapatistas in that one, it is all between PRI and VERDE and government official limits and usos and costumbres limits.


This is one of the truest posts I've read on this site on the real Mexico. Obviously, the situation is much different in much of Mexico, but the reality you captured is one that all Mexicans but few expats understand: Mexico's "rule of law" is a polite fiction.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Well it is saturday and I have not heard from my young friend from Saclum.. Many of the women are getting out but the men are staying and all moving in on the outskirts of town to defend the town. There could be another massacre and by the way none of this is in the news.. it is all tam tam news via people getting out and telling other people..


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

citlali said:


> Well it is saturday and I have not heard from my young friend from Saclum.. Many of the women are getting out but the men are staying and all moving in on the outskirts of town to defend the town. There could be another massacre and by the way none of this is in the news.. it is all tam tam news via people getting out and telling other people..


What's all this about? Where is Saclum? Who could be massacring whom?


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Saclum is in the Chenalho municipality close to a little town called Santa Martha and they are at war with Aldama Santa Martha over territory. Aldama claims they invaded the and and Santa Martha claims the same thing.. they are shooting at each other with tracer bullets and automatic weapons to scare people and force them to leave the land.. The same thing happened with Chalchihuitan and they had 6000 people who lived in the mountains for a month and 1000 from Chenalho.. The government sent the army and it calmed down but no one is doing anything for Aldama or Santa Martha / Saclum.. and it is really nasty and dangerous. The situation is not unlike to the one that happened in Acteal 20 years ago People fear a massacre right now, I hope it calms down but today was not better.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

citlali said:


> Saclum is in the Chenalho municipality close to a little town called Santa Martha and they are at war with Aldama Santa Martha over territory. Aldama claims they invaded the and and Santa Martha claims the same thing.. they are shooting at each other with tracer bullets and automatic weapons to scare people and force them to leave the land.. The same thing happened with Chalchihuitan and they had 6000 people who lived in the mountains for a month and 1000 from Chenalho.. The government sent the army and it calmed down but no one is doing anything for Aldama or Santa Martha / Saclum.. and it is really nasty and dangerous. The situation is not unlike to the one that happened in Acteal 20 years ago People fear a massacre right now, I hope it calms down but today was not better.


How awful! What do you think is the root cause of these kinds of conflicts?


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

land limits . with 60 hectares are the cause of the conflict,
There are 2 limits to the municipality, the river which is under usos y costumbres and the Mexican government limits for the municipalities which are straight lines.. Those limits were drawn under PRI so the PRI towns tend to recognize the government limits and the others go by the river,
Then came Verde and at the local level Verde and PRI fight it out.

Chenalho that was PRI in the past elected Rosa Perez a VERDE candidate for Presidente.. That was also the source of another conflict and within Chenalho towns like Santa Martha (PRI) kicked out Rosa Perez because according to them she had not kept promises she made during the campaign .. the government was supporting her staying until the head of the legislative and the representative for Chenalho were kidnapped in San Cristobal by Santa Martha and under the thread of hanging one and burning the other, Rosa Perez fled and a presidente interim went in , A few months later Rosa Perez and her friends came back so the interim President fled black to Santa Martha , his son was shot.. no one knows for sure what really happened.
Meanwhile Aldama is PRI and is claiming that Santa Martha has settled over some of their land and Santa Martha is claiming the same thing and people have been seriously killing each other over the last 2 years but the situations has really been getting worse over the last 2 months,, and terrible over the last 2 weeks.
It is at the point today where the men of Saclum cannot leave Saclum and the women and children are beginning to leave.
No communication is possible now as there is no electricity and the cell phones are out of battery I heard today from a woman who left but she did not have much news as the men are digging in some of the houses in the outskirts.
I have not heard from anyone from Aldama so I do not know what is happening there but a woman from one of the communities below Aldama told they were scared and that many people were leaving.
It is a surreal situation and no help seem to be coming and no mediation seem to be happening. The authorities are not talking to each other..
The situation is more complicated than what I tried to explain as there are lots of plots and subplots.. Unless one of the two party gives up I am afraid more people are going to die, it is a really sad situation for both sides.


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## surabi (Jan 1, 2017)

Citlali, this is truly terrible, what you are reporting. So much misery in the world. And now their cell phones out of charge, so they can't even get the word out or photograph what is happening.
One of the best things I ever bought and still have and use is a little wind-up flashlight. I bought it in Canada years ago and it was cheap, maybe $10. There are no batteries involved- just a little hand crank that you turn fast and it charges the flashlight, but it also has a USB port that can be used for charging a cell phone. They're designed for camping, but it would be so useful in situations like this.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Thank you surabi , I am going to see if I can find something like that..it would help , they could also get those portable battery chargers already charged.. , th eproblem is finding someone who will get there. The men cannot get out and are fined if they do and since they do not have money to spare , they are stuck.. I spoke with friends I have in the government and that was a waste of time.. so there is no help for these people until the news break and since the towns are small they will not be a huge amount of refugees like they had in Chachihuilton.. They really need the army to go in there and have the authority come to an agreement.. I saw a video of 6 people from Aldama begging the governor to help with negotiations back in september and both sides tell me nothing happened. Of course we cannot tell if it is correct but I tend to believe it as one of the person was from Chenalho and was a refugie from the Acteal area , married one of the authorities in Aldama and as she told me , here we go again..
The problem is that when these attacks happen there is nothing we can do. Twice I was called at midnight by people totally panicked about the firing and contacted someone in the government and was told they could not do anything because according to the head of security everything was calm and that small armed groups are the ones causing the problem and there is nothing the government can do. They do not speak the language and these groups know the landscape and come and go.. 

The people do not talk to outsiders and that is another problem when these things are brewing.. Sorry for hijacking the op thread, may be this should be split..

Last week an artist from Mexico was with me and told me he was going to work in Aldama, I told him it was dangerous and that I would not go as 2 different groups told me not to come. He told me the women he worked with told him nothing so he went. When he got back he told me there was tension, that the women who always work in the patio were working inside and that something happened, they all rushed outside and rushed back saying Santa Martha was attacking and to stay inside.. that they told him finally..but he has worked with them for 2 years and they never told him anything before.. There is a general distrust of outsiders so it is not easy to know what is really going on until some killing happen and then it really gets confusing... The local have to solve their problems but it is hard to see it happen and realize that there is nothing anyone can do but wait for a massacre or a whole bunch people losing everything..


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Citlali, I wonder what the historical roots of these conflicts are, perhaps going back hundreds of years, even to pre-Hispanic times.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

That is probably the answer: Continuing tribal conflict with occasional wars, exacerbated by the stress of “civilization“. Government may simply choose to let it play out “naturally“, since intervention would only lead to more violence.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

It is not that simple. Indigenous live in 2 cultures and and this can lead to conflicts. The elected candidates are chosen by the assembly according to Usos y Costumbres.. usually the assembly is made of men only but in some communities women are included when they are land owners and are not married. Then for the election from the municipality men and women vote but the results are usually the same as the wives vote like their husbands..Traditionally women were not part of the authorities but with the 50% representation rules they are also elected..although in some communities they are elected in name and the husband continues the charge and on and on.. 

The best one is that a friend from Zinacantan told me there were problems within PRI in Zinacantan as they were 2 factions.. a small faction who wanted the spouse of the president to run but another faction was against it because they did not like him.. When I heard him.. I said you mean her.. She said no the spouse is a man.. I told that story to a Tojolobal friend of mine and said I was surprised they had openly gay presidentes in that community and his answer was is the spouse a man or a woman without children?We also call women without children men...
Welcome to the surreal world of Mexico..nothing is what it appears to be.. 
If they cannot agree or there is confusion on the sex of a person you can imagine how much confusion there can be about the limit of a municipality or ancestral land.. The authorities should have paid attention to the ancestral land nut like the white powers in Africa caused all kinds of problems in Africa , the Mexican government caused all kinds of problems when tracing the limits of municipalities


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## xolo (May 25, 2014)

Hi citlali, your argument is hard to follow. The difference between men and women in regards to children might be your understanding in contrast to their's, not necessarily a confusion, but a cultural difference. In a previous post you compared the conflict you are seeing to what happened in Acteal 20+ years ago. _Many _think Acteal was a paramilitary strike (massacre) against pro-EZLN indigenous peoples, not exactly the regional land conflict you describe (maybe I don't understand).


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Zolo all conflicts here start with land conflicts and it is how Acteal started and then the political parties entered it.
It is not clear if Acteal was communal land or private land in the municipality of chenalho but when the presumed owner died his son and daughters inherited the land. Agustin the son claimed that women did not inherit according to Usos y Costumbres and therefore his sisters had no right to the land, took 60 hectares and gave 60 to his followers that were PRI members.
The sisters and nephew contested the decision and lost in court as the court in Chenalho was PRI. 
There was killing of a nephew , rape of a woman and other nastiness and killing.. When the nephews were shot they were taken by people from Acteal to the hospital in San Cristobal and the 5 men that helped taking them were arrested, that started more trouble and the involvement of the EZLN.
The Abejas are autonomous from the EZLN, pacifist and christian and were headed by the people who were fighting Agustin .. The PRI followers lived in upper Acteal and up the road they benefited from a sand bank exploited by La Delicias, Ybeljoj and another community, The Abejas lived down the hill from them and further down the hill were was the EZLN and further down Polho also EZLN
There was fighting and killing between all the supporters of all the groups and the massacre was caused by the fact that the EZLN took control of the sandbank . The Upper Acteal PRI followers attacked the Abejas where the women were gathered in the church praying as they saw them as supporters of the EZLN.

The situation now is very similar. There is 30 hectares on each side of the river between Aldama and Santa Martha & Saclum both communities are part of Chenalho that are fighting for the land. Aldama is PRI Chenalho VERDE but the people who kicked out Rosa Perez from office last year were from Santa Martha (Chenalho) and were PRI..
Paramilitary groups from Chenalho atr shooting at communities in the Aldama area and killed 3 people last week from a little community just below Aldama on the way to Santa Martha called Kotzilna and displaced people from Koko and Kotzilna.

There are also paramilitary groups attacking Saclum right now. Saclum &Santa Martha are saying they are from Aldama.. I do not know if that is confirmed.

There is a siege right now in Saclum and no news so far of what is happening except that women and children are allowed to get out by the villagers as the paramilitary groups are shooting at them..

Chenalho was also the cause for the 6000 refugies a few months ago from Chalchihuitan where they sent their good to kick out people from their houses. Chalchihuitan only managed to kicked out 1000 people from Chenalho communities.


I have been friends for many year with a woman from Acteal who had to leave the area when young and married to a man from Aldama. They are both part of the current authorities of Aldama and she tells me it is the same situation as she found herself 20 years ago in Acteal, if someone should know she should.

I just saw a video from Septembre on a meeting she was in in San Cristobal asking help from the governor to mediate the two parties and so far no answer from the State and Rosa Perez continues to be very elusive and refusing to meet.



The man , women thing was my little joke which is hard to explain as it is tough to translate the indigenous humor.. A gay man in Tzotzil is called a man virgin , translated a man who never had sex with a woman which is pejoratif in Tzotzil as the man[s role is to father children. It is the nickname of the president partner. Meanwhile the president want his spouse to be a candidate in the next elections as it is a way in the communities to stay in power.. the wife runs to make the 50% gender quota and the man continue to run the show .. I remarked to a friend from another community that I did not realize gay men were accepted as spouse in the communities and that is when he told me that a woman without children can also be called a man.. so the joke in Tzotzil and Tojolabal *cross cultural( was that we did not know if Zinacantan would have a "virgin man" as president or a "man=woman without children". Meanwhile they are fighting it out to as the majority of the PRI in that town wants nothing to do with the spouse, That feud is purely related to the elections and as nothing to do with land. This fight will be resolved when the candidate is named by the assembly( indigenous government) and that will be ratified by the Mexican elections in July.

I hope this is clearer.. although nothing is ever clear down here..


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

For those who are interested here is the link to a very good article on the chenalho Aldama situation now. It is in Spanish but with the help of google translate it may be 
understandable. It is one of the few article that is factual and not bias in favor of one or the other.


.https://www.animalpolitico.com/2018...tica-la-violencia-que-mina-los-altos-chiapas/


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

citlali said:


> For those who are interested here is the link to a very good article on the chenalho Aldama situation now. It is in Spanish but with the help of google translate it may be
> understandable. It is one of the few article that is factual and not bias in favor of one or the other.
> 
> 
> .https://www.animalpolitico.com/2018...tica-la-violencia-que-mina-los-altos-chiapas/


I was just going to post a link to another article from the "Animal Politico" website, when I saw yours. This article is from April 23/18:
https://www.animalpolitico.com/2018/04/hombres-armados-destruyen-sede-de-las-abejas-de-acteal-en-chiapas/


Here is the website of "Las Abejas de Acteal" (also in Spanish):
Las Abejas de Acteal


And a couple of English language links for those who want to know a bit more of the history of the Acteal massacre, its roots/antecedents, and the civil society group Las Abejas:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Abejas

https://cpt.org/cptnet/2007/12/22/chiapas-mx-acteal-struggle-against-impunity-continues


I'm sure the original poster was not expecting the thread to take this turn when he started it (and as you suggested in an earlier post, Citlali, maybe this information about current events in rural Chiapas should be split off into its own thread). But I, for one, think it is important to highlight what is going on in real time, in real lives, in some parts of Mexico. Thank you, Citlali, for bringing this to our attention. I love Mexico deeply and dearly, as do many or most on this forum, but for me that doesn't mean turning a blind eye to harsh realities. Mexico is certainly not just margaritas, mariachis and beaches...


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Some people who live in communities in Chenalho that are no pro Verde Rosa Perez are living a nightmare.. These armed groups shoot at women , children anything that move and people live in terror and many have to leave their houses. People also live in terror in the municipality of Aldama it is hard to believe but the nastiness is unreal. 

As Santa Martha is cut off from their access (the shortest) to San Cristobal via Aldama and San Andres, the people in San Andres are suffering from a lack of business .. Aldama people do not want to see Santa Martha people in San Andres as it is a good way to start fights and the Santa Martha people cannot go to the market in San Andres which has a better market and is closer than Chenalho so all in all everyone loses. It is pretty awful as all of these communities are very poor and a drop in business means a lot. 

Thank you for the link about Acteal, I was there last week and was with Abejas 1 hour ago and I did not hear about this last one...so the paramilitary are back even in Acteal which is really a shrine.. this is unreal..and my friend was right on the subject.. something is going to happen before it is over..

Yes Chiapas is a beautiful place with a fascinating culture and great artesania but you remove the varnish and it is extremely violent , poor and ruthless.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

ojoazules here is an answer to what was published about the attack.. it appears to start wit that the descendants of the 45 people killed 20 years ago split into 3 groups and that those 3 groups all have the same name and also are fighting about land..
The women that removed the barbed wire from around the house that was destroyed denied attacking the place but it seems that some of their relatives did attack the place..
The group I was with last week Iis mostly from Yaxgemael , with a few from Acteal and some from 2 other communities Abejas.. The Abejas from Acteal who live in Acteal of course do not recognize the other 2 groups and claimed that they stole their names.. so it appears that the pacifists from Acteal are no better than the others... everyone is fighting and arguing about land within the descendants... 


Organización Las Abejas de Acteal no fue atacada, aclaran - La Jornada


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

I wonder what things were like in this area in the distant past, before the Spanish Conquest and colonization.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I do not know but I bet it was.. there is a reason why they had city states rather then an Empire.. Palenque was fighting Tonina allied with Tikal .. It looks to me that no much has changed Spaniards or no Spaniards. When the Spaniards came Chamula allied with them to fight the Chiapanecas then they went at it with Zinacantan and so on and so forth .nothing has changed. So much for the sweet little Mayas.. In my opinion there were no piece of cake before the conquest and have not changed much since.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

citlali said:


> I do not know but I bet it was.. there is a reason why they had city states rather then an Empire.. Palenque was fighting Tonina allied with Tikal .. It looks to me that no much has changed Spaniards or no Spaniards. When the Spaniards came Chamula allied with them to fight the Chiapanecas then they went at it with Zinacantan and so on and so forth .nothing has changed. So much for the sweet little Mayas.. In my opinion there were no piece of cake before the conquest and have not changed much since.


In the early years of the study of Mesoamerican culture, it was thought that, unlike the warrior Mexica society (Mexica = Aztec), the Maya were a peaceful culture ruled by philosopher kings. However, once their extremely clever writing system began to be deciphered, the true nature of their society was revealed and discovered to be as prone to violence as any other.


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## ojosazules11 (Nov 3, 2013)

citlali said:


> ojoazules here is an answer to what was published about the attack.. it appears to start wit that the descendants of the 45 people killed 20 years ago split into 3 groups and that those 3 groups all have the same name and also are fighting about land..
> The women that removed the barbed wire from around the house that was destroyed denied attacking the place but it seems that some of their relatives did attack the place..
> The group I was with last week Iis mostly from Yaxgemael , with a few from Acteal and some from 2 other communities Abejas.. The Abejas from Acteal who live in Acteal of course do not recognize the other 2 groups and claimed that they stole their names.. so it appears that the pacifists from Acteal are no better than the others... everyone is fighting and arguing about land within the descendants...
> 
> ...


It looks like in addition to the on-the-ground violence and conflict, there is a war of words, and the warring factions are naming themselves in such a way as to make it that much harder to figure out who's who and who to believe (e.g. one group has also taken on the name of "Las Abejas" even though they are a separate faction from the other group with that name (?) and another group call themselves "Sowers of Peace", even though it doesn't sound like that's what they've been sowing). 

Knowing some of these women first hand, Citlali, you certainly would have a better feel than most on whose version is more accurate, but given how complex and intense this situation is, probably the "objective" truth will be very difficult to ever really establish. On "Las Abejas" website they state that the head office of their organization was the victim of "armed aggression", although I do not see them stating that the life and security of women and children continue to be threatened, which is what the La Jornada article indicates the other "Las Abejas" group says is not true. 

Las Abejas de Acteal: Denunciamos agresión armada en nuestra Casa de la Memoria y la Esperanza.

2 excerpts from this article (on the Las Abejas website) do highlight the ongoing trauma that is being sown: 

_Es muy triste y doloroso lo que sucedió ayer y lo que sigue sucediendo, porque nos recuerda como vivimos el 22 de diciembre de 1997, cuando los paramilitares llegaron a masacrarnos, porque este grupo de jóvenes copiaron la forma como actuaron los paramilitares priistas de Chenalhó. Muchas mujeres sobretodo las sobrevivientes tuvimos mucho miedo, causando crisis emocional así como en niñas también, pero, tuvimos que hacernos fuerte y apoyarnos entre todas_ ....

*It is very sad and painful what happened yesterday and what is still happening, because it reminds us of how we lived on December 22, 1997, when the paramilitaries came to massacre us, because this group of young people copied the way the PRNA paramilitaries of Chenalhó acted. Many women especially the survivors were very afraid, causing emotional crisis [in us as well as] in the younger girls, but, we had to make ourselves strong and support each other * ...

_La violencia en Chenalhó ya es el infierno, porque en donde quiera hay grupos armados, como lo acaba de señalar el gobierno estatal, que desde hace meses se oyen disparos de armas de fuego “sin identificar quién o quiénes lo realizan”, causando desplazamientos forzados y matando a gente inocente y la presidenta municipal de Chenalhó Rosa Pérez Pérez no hace nada para detener a su gente, al contrario permite la violencia y los asesinatos, así es su uso y costumbre para gobernar al municipio oficial._

*The violence in Chenalhó has become a hell, because there are armed groups all over the place, as the state government has just pointed out, for months shots from firearms have been heard "without identifying who is doing it", causing forced displacements and killing innocent people and the municipal president of Chenalhó Rosa Pérez Pérez does not do anything to stop her people; on the contrary, she allows violence and assassinations, as is her "use and tradition" to govern the official municipality. *

N.B. For those who aren't aware of what "usos y costumbres" are, they are an important part of life in small town / rural Mexico. I have learned many things in Tepoztlan, Morelos and surrounding villages that are part of the "usos y costumbres" of the townspeople. Going against these "uses and customs / traditions" is not a good idea, especially as an outsider (I fortunately, don't have any first hand experience with being in conflict with "usos y costumbres" and I hope I never will!) But as the article points out, it appears Rosa Perez Perez has established her own "use and custom" in how she governs. In Tepoztlan, I have seen opposing parties both try to claim "usos y costumbres" in defense of their respective positions (as in Chiapas, most often relating to land rights). 

Here is how Wikipedia describes "usos y costumbres": 

_Usos y costumbres (customs and traditions; literally, uses and customs) is a legal term denoting indigenous customary law in Latin America. Since the era of Spanish colonialism, authorities have recognized local forms of rulership, self governance, and juridical practice, with varying degrees of acceptance and formality. The term is often used in English without translation.

'Usos y costumbres' political mechanisms are used by numerous indigenous peoples in Mexico, Guatemala, Bolivia, and other countries to govern water rights, in criminal and civil conflicts, to elect their representatives to regional and national bodies._

It is also disheartening to see how various political parties take advantage of the situation for their own gain. Or do the local candidates and party members take advantage of the political parties for their own gain? I have a hunch that many of these local politicians don't necessarily care about the party's official platform, but use party politics as a springboard to more power for themselves - which is what you pointed out on a different thread, Citlali, that many local corrupt politicians are doing with Morena - opportunists jumping on board when they think it's the party most likely to win - and I imagine jumping ship at the first sign of shifting fortunes... 

Call me cynical. When it comes to politics, power, and politicians seeking personal gain rather than the betterment of the community and society, I am.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I do not know whose version is correct , maybe none of them because I do not now the third group so everything is possible. Sometimes knowing everyone involved is more confusing than anything else. I know several people in two groups but I am not close to them and each one is telling me the other is lying..at this point I do not care and I am sick of all the nastiness..

As an aside there was an interview on Rosa Perez on a Judicial program one day and my husband commented what a cute woman Rosa Perez was.. SHe is a lawyer and tough as they come, I told my husband and that was before all the problems started..little did I know what was going to happen.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

yesterday my young friend from Saclum showed up in San Cristobal after spending the night on watch duty. He had to get back as he is on eatch duty every 3 days, CFE showed up to fix th elines and were shot at but did the work aso at least they have electricity.. The army showed up and is patrolling the area.. Apparently everything is quiet when they are aroud and then the shooting starts again when they leave.

My friends from Aldama also showed up and told me it was quieter because the army was in Santa Martha.. Hopefully the army will not leave too soon..


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## chicois8 (Aug 8, 2009)

Isla Verde said:


> In the early years of the study of Mesoamerican culture, it was thought that, unlike the warrior Mexica society (Mexica = Aztec), the Maya were a peaceful culture ruled by philosopher kings. However, once their extremely clever writing system began to be deciphered, the true nature of their society was revealed and discovered to be as prone to violence as any other.





I was taught the same about the peaceful Maya and believe they were...Then in 987AD the Toltecs invaded the Maya in the post classic period. The Toltecs did build the Skull Platform next to the ball court at Chichen Itza, they also brought the Chac Mool ( a sacrificial alter ) to Chichen Itza...
Since the Maya arrived around 2000BC and the Toltecs invaded around 987AD that’s almost 3000 years the Maya may have been peaceful working on calendars, building great cities, studying astronomy and predicting eclipses and making beautiful artifacts in obsidian, jade and pottery.
Then the Toltecs come along and since their religion was based on human sacrifice to their gods it seems reasonable they would continue to practice the same rituals after conquering the Maya...
An other item that always bothered me was the romanticized “ Well of Sacrifice”
Seeing how the underground rivers seem to connect cenotes as the fresh water runs to the Caribbean, if the Maya were so smart why would they throw human bodies into a cenote about 300 yards from the cenote that drinking water was harvested for Chichen Itza’s inhabitants ...Just Maybe in the 3000+ years the Maya and possibly earlier man or child could have walked the jungle in darkness and accidentally fell into the cenote. IMO


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

chicois8 said:


> I was taught the same about the peaceful Maya and believe they were...Then in 987AD the Toltecs invaded the Maya in the post classic period. The Toltecs did build the Skull Platform next to the ball court at Chichen Itza, they also brought the Chac Mool ( a sacrificial alter ) to Chichen Itza...
> Since the Maya arrived around 2000BC and the Toltecs invaded around 987AD that’s almost 3000 years the Maya may have been peaceful working on calendars, building great cities, studying astronomy and predicting eclipses and making beautiful artifacts in obsidian, jade and pottery.
> Then the Toltecs come along and since their religion was based on human sacrifice to their gods it seems reasonable they would continue to practice the same rituals after conquering the Maya...



From what I know, there is plenty of evidence of the Maya being as warlike as other Mesoamerican cultures long before the Toltecs came along. Here is a useful link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_warfarehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_warfare


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

If they were not warlike 2000 years ago they were on the last 1000 so what counts for now is that they are warlike..
Today they are prompt to quick justice. when people are not happy with what one the leader does they grab him and beat the heck out of him , humiliate him and sometimes kill him.. It happens on a regular basis. A couple of weeks ago the presidente of Amatenango del Valle was grabbed by people from a barrio who were unhappy because he did not do some public works and was accused of having kept the money , they threw him in jail for a few hours, gathered supporters and beat the heck out of him sending him to the hospital. In Chamula last year, they killed the Presidente and another 6 or 7 of his people for the same reasons.. Why would anyone be greedy enough to run for presidente is beyond me... They grabbed Rosa Perez, the presidente of Chenalho. a couple of weeks ago as well for not doing some public works she had promised to do. It was rumored that she was in a hospital but no one seems to know if this is true. As she is pressure to go to meeting about the conflict she may or may not be in a hospital.
We are not talking about once in a while , this happens on a regular basis in the communities.


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## xolo (May 25, 2014)

Citlali, your personal observations are really appreciated. You should consider publishing. 

I'm sure the last 1000 or 2000 years are relevant, but one only needs to look at the last couple of centuries since independence to see that colonial times never really ended. In Chiapas, that did not bode well, nor in the country as a whole.

How is it in San Cristóbal de las Casas? How is security? I've been invited there but might need to venture out into the surroundings.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

San Cristobal is as secure as any other town. There are areas where I would not go at night but that is the same everywhere. 

San Cristobal can be very conservative and extremely leftist depending on whom you associate with. You can meet some very interesting people here , writers artists, linguists, anthropologist specializing in various aspect of the culture, it takes a while to meet these people but they are quite a few characters who come and go..
I spend 90 % of my time with indigenous either in their towns or in San Cristobal and I do feel safe but people from the communities warn me when there are conflicts and they tell me not to come. 
There are areas that are not safe like the road between San Cristobal and Palenque. Two cyclists just were found dead at the bottom of a canyon about 40 km from San Cristobal The road from San Cristobal to Simojovel or La Selva negra is also unsafe past San Andres..

Do visit Chiapas I think you will find Los ALtos fascinating and you will enjoy it If you go deep into indigenous country go with locals who are from there and that you can trust. Local indigenous are suspicious of strangers so when going to an out of the way place always have the name of someone in that village and ask for that person ,, they may not tell you where that person live but they will know you know someone there so it is like a password.. If they think you want to buy something they will either tell yo they do not know where that person live or try to take you to their place but at least they will know why you are there.
I am leaving here in a couple of day and will be back in July for the elections and then back in August and september in Jalisco and back in Chiapas in October till the 7th or 8th of November. so if you come when I an here do not hesitate to contact me if you want info..on any village in the highlands.
I think it is like most indigenous communities to need to respect their customs and understand the basics ..also always remember that many people are shy and distrust any outsider until they know you and accept you it may or may not be safe depending on the village. There are lots of conflict and it is a good idea to never take side even by mistake..

Funny you are the second person who tell me I should publishing, but I have no interest in publishing and a lot of the people I am speaking about are now friends and I would not feel right publishing about them..


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

just as you are asking if there is danger.. a Pole and a German cyclists were found at the bottom of a canyon between San Cristobal and Palenque just before arriving in Ocosingo. It is not known if they got run of or hit by a vehicle or if they were attacked but the area is a known problem area. There is an investigation going on and later on today there is a march to protest the lack of security in Chiapas..They disappeared between the 23 and 26th of April and the brother of the German alerted the German and Mexican Embassies and the Federal police and posted a disappearance notice on facebook asking about the whereabout of his brother who had not showed up in Cuidad del Carmen. THe pole was on his way to Patagonia..They seemed to have hooked up and gone together or they were both killed at the same place but who knows.


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