# Pension question (Spanish)



## sansylivin (Sep 16, 2013)

Hi All,

Still quite a long way off (too long!) for me but I am wondering if anyone is receiving the Spanish state pension and in particular how things work (in reality rather than according to EU laW) with regards UK contributions. 

Here is the reason for asking, I´ve been working here for past 5-ish years and have a permanent contract for government, so hopefully plan to stay for long run. I worked in UK for 15 years or so. So the question is purely economic:

Is it better to use the UK years towards a Spanish pension or to buy extra NI contributions for full UK pension and receive both sets- I should have 25 years minimum by time I reach 67.

So another question is if you buy extra UK contributions would they count towards Spanish years or are they disregarded (there is difference between type 1 and type 3 NICs)? 

I´ve had a good look around forums, web sites etc. but most information seems to be anecdotal

Any thoughts/comments most welcome


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

sansylivin said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Still quite a long way off (too long!) for me but I am wondering if anyone is receiving the Spanish state pension and in particular how things work (in reality rather than according to EU laW) with regards UK contributions.
> 
> ...


Ni idea, but OH (Spanish) and I don't hold much hope of getting a pension from the Spanish government. I think few people do. It certainly won't be enough to live off


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

sansylivin said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Still quite a long way off (too long!) for me but I am wondering if anyone is receiving the Spanish state pension and in particular how things work (in reality rather than according to EU laW) with regards UK contributions.
> 
> ...


I don't receive a Spanish pension but am in the same situation and have researched it a bit. From what I can tell, you have two options: 

1. Go the "EU" route whereby Spain recognises your previous UK contributions when you retire as if they were paid into the Spanish system, and you receive a larger Spanish state pension, but no UK state pension.

2. Claim both the UK state pension and Spanish state pension independently, of course providing you have paid enough into both systems.

I went for the second option and am paying into both the Spanish system through my work in Spain, and I'm making Additional Voluntary Contributions to the UK system. So when I retire I hope to get a full UK state pension and nearly a full Spanish state pension (I won't quite make 35 years, but I'll be well over 15 years paying in). My reasons for doing this include: it's useful receiving different state pensions in different currencies, the UK state pension is an absolute bargain considering how small the AVCs are, and if the UK leaves the EU then option 1 might cease to be available anyway.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

sansylivin said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Still quite a long way off (too long!) for me but I am wondering if anyone is receiving the Spanish state pension and in particular how things work (in reality rather than according to EU laW) with regards UK contributions.
> 
> ...


AS I understand it, normally you need 15 years of contributions in Spain to get a pension. To get a pension in UK you need 10 years to get a small pension and 35 years to get a full pension.

The procedure is to apply for your pension in the country where you last worked or where you are living. That country should contact other countries where you have worked and the pension you receive will be calculated according to your contributions in both/all countries. You can buy back years if you are short in the UK (contact HMRC).


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## sansylivin (Sep 16, 2013)

Chopera said:


> I don't receive a Spanish pension but am in the same situation and have researched it a bit. From what I can tell, you have two options:
> 
> 1. Go the "EU" route whereby Spain recognises your previous UK contributions when you retire as if they were paid into the Spanish system, and you receive a larger Spanish state pension, but no UK state pension.
> 
> ...


OK this is good to know and I guess the choice is whether the extra Spanish years are worth more than bringing the UK up to full (less generous), and this I guess depends upon your salary as I understand the Spanish system is based on final salary (much like the mythical UK pensions of old).

So a big question for me is are the additional voluntary contributions made to the UK admissible in the Spanish system? If so it would seem the way to go!


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

sansylivin said:


> OK this is good to know and I guess the choice is whether the extra Spanish years are worth more than bringing the UK up to full (less generous), and this I guess depends upon your salary as I understand the Spanish system is based on final salary (much like the mythical UK pensions of old).


I can't remember the details, but the Spanish pension has a "base" part that everyone seems to get regardless of what they've paid in, and a contributory part that is based on how many years you have paid in. For the contributory part you need to have paid in for at least 15 years, and the calculation is based on your contributions for the last 20 years I think.

The UK pensions may pay out less than the Spanish pension, but with AVCs you pay a lot less in so I think it is better value for money. I'm paying something like 12 pounds a month at the moment, and I hope to receive close to 155 pounds a month from it when I retire (well it should be more due to to inflation). For such low contributions I think that's a pretty good deal.



sansylivin said:


> So a big question for me is are the additional voluntary contributions made to the UK admissible in the Spanish system? If so it would seem the way to go!


I'm not following you here. The point in making the AVCs to the UK at the same time as paying into the Spanish system is to claim the UK state pension as well as the Spanish state pension when you retire. The AVCs don't need to be admissible to the Spanish system as they are used for claiming the UK state pension only.


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## sansylivin (Sep 16, 2013)

Chopera said:


> I can't remember the details, but the Spanish pension has a "base" part that everyone seems to get regardless of what they've paid in, and a contributory part that is based on how many years you have paid in. For the contributory part you need to have paid in for at least 15 years, and the calculation is based on your contributions for the last 20 years I think.
> 
> The UK pensions may pay out less than the Spanish pension, but with AVCs you pay a lot less in so I think it is better value for money. I'm paying something like 12 pounds a month at the moment, and I hope to receive close to 155 pounds a month from it when I retire (well it should be more due to to inflation). For such low contributions I think that's a pretty good deal.
> 
> ...


Thanks Chopera- and completely agree with the AVCs being good value for money in terms of benefiting from a full UK pension.

My question is if you were to take option 1 - to trade your UK pension via EU distribution for Spanish and you additionally made AVCs before retirement (say 10 years working and 15 years worth of AVCs). Would the Spanish system recognise the 10 years only or the full 25 years that the UK system does?

If the latter than the benefit under the Spanish system would be much greater as you could have an extra 15 years (I believe 15/35 (43%)) of your Spanish pension which could amount for a lot more than the full UK pension


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

sansylivin said:


> Thanks Chopera- and completely agree with the AVCs being good value for money in terms of benefiting from a full UK pension.
> 
> My question is if you were to take option 1 - to trade your UK pension via EU distribution for Spanish and you additionally made AVCs before retirement (say 10 years working and 15 years worth of AVCs). Would the Spanish system recognise the 10 years only or the full 25 years that the UK system does?
> 
> If the latter than the benefit under the Spanish system would be much greater as you could have an extra 15 years (I believe 15/35 (43%)) of your Spanish pension which could amount for a lot more than the full UK pension


Are you talking about making those additional AVCs at the same time as paying into the Spanish system?


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

This article may be of interest to you:
State pensions abroad - Your Europe


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## sansylivin (Sep 16, 2013)

Chopera said:


> Are you talking about making those additional AVCs at the same time as paying into the Spanish system?


Yes so paying both the Spanish (through working) and AVCs on top (like you). My question is if I buy say 15 years of AVCs before retirement will the Spanish authorities take that into account or only my real (ie NICs type 1) contributions?

In otherwords can I use the cheap AVCs to top up my Spanish entitlement to the full 35 years??

Or maybe I´m getting confused?????


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## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

I am interested in Chopera's strategy of working in Spain while making voluntary contributions in the UK. My wife is doing this, not so much to be able to claim two full pensions (is that allowed?), but as insurance against one of the systems going bust.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

sansylivin said:


> Yes so paying both the Spanish (through working) and AVCs on top (like you). My question is if I buy say 15 years of AVCs before retirement will the Spanish authorities take that into account or only my real (ie NICs type 1) contributions?
> 
> In otherwords can I use the cheap AVCs to top up my Spanish entitlement to the full 35 years??
> 
> Or maybe I´m getting confused?????


No I think I follow you but I wanted to double-check

The short answer is "I don't know", and I suspect very few people do. But I strongly suspect the official answer would be "no" because the idea behind the EU scheme is to account for separate periods worked in different countries at different times. In practice you might find that when it comes to retirement, when you make your claim from the Spanish authorities they'll contact the UK to ask how many years of contribution you have made to the UK and they won't bother asking or checking the dates. But I wouldn't rely on that.

I believe it is possible to also make voluntary contributions to the Spanish system as well though. It is something I didn't know about until a poster on here mentioned it recently (they had been in Thailand I think for a few years and had continued paying in to the Spanish pension system while away). So you could possibly do that if say you want to retire early but want to keep topping up your years of contributions to the Spanish system until you can claim it. However the prospect of paying AVCs into both the UK and Spanish systems at the same time seems contrary to their purpose, so it might not be allowed.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

You can make payments into the UK system and it depends on whether you are working in Spain or not. If you are working you can make AVCs at the class 2 (self-employed) rate; if you are not working in Spain, they will be at the class 3 (unemployed) rate. These can be paid using Direct Debit. Get in touch with HMRC on +44 3000 555 724 - make sure you have your UK national insurance N° handy.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Turtles said:


> I am interested in Chopera's strategy of working in Spain while making voluntary contributions in the UK. My wife is doing this, not so much to be able to claim two full pensions (*is that allowed?*), but as insurance against one of the systems going bust.


I wrote to the UK authorities to double-check this and they told me it is allowed: i.e. if I've paid in enough into the UK system, including AVCs, then I have the right to claim it regardless of whether I'm claiming another EU country's state pension as well. And if you check on the UK website covering AVCs there is nothing that says you can't keep making these contributions while paying into another EU state pension system. They will still count.

What is confusing are articles like the one Madliz posted earlier in the thread and other content on official EU websites, or in fact just about all articles I've read on the subject. They all seem to imply that you can only make a claim for a state pension from the EU country you are resident in when you retire, and then the EU process will kick-in automatically whereby the authorities in that country will sum up the contributions in other EU countries to work out your overall pension. None of them mention that you don't have to do it this way, and they don't mention what you should do to prevent this system from kicking-in - I guess you just tell the Spanish authorities not to contact the UK. This is mainly why I double-checked with the UK authorities before starting my AVCs.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Chopera said:


> I wrote to the UK authorities to double-check this and they told me it is allowed: i.e. if I've paid in enough into the UK system, including AVCs, then I have the right to claim it regardless of whether I'm claiming another EU country's state pension as well. And if you check on the UK website covering AVCs there is nothing that says you can't keep making these contributions while paying into another EU state pension system. They will still count.
> 
> What is confusing are articles like the one Madliz posted earlier in the thread and other content on official EU websites, or in fact just about all articles I've read on the subject. They all seem to imply that you can only make a claim for a state pension from the EU country you are resident in when you retire, and then the EU process will kick-in automatically whereby the authorities in that country will sum up the contributions in other EU countries to work out your overall pension. None of them mention that you don't have to do it this way, and* they don't mention what you should do to prevent this system from kicking-i*n - I guess you just tell the Spanish authorities not to contact the UK. This is mainly why I double-checked with the UK authorities before starting my AVCs.


Why wouldn't you want them to operate the system? Having workid in more than one country gives you a larger pension than you would get if you were only getting a pension from one of them even if your entitlement from the smallest was only one year. In addition you will get more than you would if the two pensions were kept separate, i.e. instead of just getting A + B, you will get A + B + x%. No, before you ask, I don't know how much extra.


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## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

And do the EU rules apply if the contributions were made for the same calendar years in different countries ie. working in Spain while paying voluntary contributions to the UK? I'm not sure if the rules only cover people whose valid years are consecutive.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Turtles said:


> And do the EU rules apply if the contributions were made for the same calendar years in different countries ie. working in Spain while paying voluntary contributions to the UK? I'm not sure if the rules only cover people whose valid years are consecutive.


As far as I am aware. In SWMBO's case, she first came to the UK in 1990 and will be due to retire in 2025. In order to get her full pension from the UK she needs to continue making payments to get to her 35 years. In Spain she only works part time - 21/22 hrs per week for 9 months of the year so her accumulated pension entitlement here is quite small (about 2¾ years at the last count after working 8 years.)


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## sansylivin (Sep 16, 2013)

Chopera said:


> I wrote to the UK authorities to double-check this and they told me it is allowed: i.e. if I've paid in enough into the UK system, including AVCs, then I have the right to claim it regardless of whether I'm claiming another EU country's state pension as well. And if you check on the UK website covering AVCs there is nothing that says you can't keep making these contributions while paying into another EU state pension system. They will still count.
> 
> What is confusing are articles like the one Madliz posted earlier in the thread and other content on official EU websites, or in fact just about all articles I've read on the subject. They all seem to imply that you can only make a claim for a state pension from the EU country you are resident in when you retire, and then the EU process will kick-in automatically whereby the authorities in that country will sum up the contributions in other EU countries to work out your overall pension. None of them mention that you don't have to do it this way, and they don't mention what you should do to prevent this system from kicking-in - I guess you just tell the Spanish authorities not to contact the UK. This is mainly why I double-checked with the UK authorities before starting my AVCs.


I agree with Chopera, I phoned the international pensions office yesterday and they said there is no problem in being paid two pensions from different countries and that the AVCs would allow you bring up to a full UK pension even when you are paying into another member states pension (like Spain). What you would not be allowed to do is to use any of UK working history to count towards the Spanish pension- it is all or nothing and which route to take depends upon the individuals case.

The EU websites push the confusing message that this is only one route which is to claim from your country of residence, but in this case you would lose you right to claim in both countries

The gamble (in my opinion) is if you pay AVCs for a long time and then decide that it makes economic sense to transfer your UK working years to Spain then you would have paid this money for nothing.

So really my question should be are type 3 NICs transferable between EU countries- I will go and write an email straight away


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

sansylivin said:


> I agree with Chopera, I phoned the international pensions office yesterday and they said there is no problem in being paid two pensions from different countries and that the AVCs would allow you bring up to a full UK pension even when you are paying into another member states pension (like Spain). What you would not be allowed to do is to use any of UK working history to count towards the Spanish pension- it is all or nothing and which route to take depends upon the individuals case.
> 
> The EU websites push the confusing message that this is only one route which is to claim from your country of residence, but in this case you would lose you right to claim in both countries
> 
> ...


I think you are getting confused. You do not transfer your UK working years to Spain. You will be entitled to a pension from UK and, if you have paid enough in Spain, a Spanish pension as well. What happens is when you have retired, you will receive a pension that takes into account the pensions from both countries. Many Spaniards worked abroad (Germany, Switzerland, etc.) and, in some cases, that is the only pension they get but, for others, their foreign pension is added to their Spanish pension with enhancements.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> Why wouldn't you want them to operate the system? Having workid in more than one country gives you a larger pension than you would get if you were only getting a pension from one of them even if your entitlement from the smallest was only one year. In addition you will get more than you would if the two pensions were kept separate, i.e. instead of just getting A + B, you will get A + B + x%. No, before you ask, I don't know how much extra.


Going the "EU" route limits the combined total of years of contributions for A + B to 35. Also in Spain the maximum state pension is about €2500/month so that's the most you can get (with nothing from the UK).

By keeping them separate and contributing to A and B at the same time, you can potentially claim 35 years for A and 35 years for B for a combined total of 70 years contributions. That's potentially €2500/month from Spain and around €940/month from the UK.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Chopera said:


> Going the "EU" route limits the combined total of years of contributions for A + B to 35. Also in Spain the maximum state pension is about €2500/month so that's the most you can get (with nothing from the UK).
> 
> By keeping them separate and contributing to A and B at the same time, you can potentially claim 35 years for A and 35 years for B for a combined total of 70 years contributions. That's potentially €2500/month from Spain and around €940/month from the UK.


but you can't contribute for the periods before you were there.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> I think you are getting confused. You do not transfer your UK working years to Spain. You will be entitled to a pension from UK and, if you have paid enough in Spain, a Spanish pension as well. What happens is when you have retired, you will receive a pension that takes into account the pensions from both countries. Many Spaniards worked abroad (Germany, Switzerland, etc.) and, in some cases, that is the only pension they get but, for others, their foreign pension is added to their Spanish pension with enhancements.


That's not quite how I see it. My interpretation is that if you go the EU route you do not get the pension from the UK but instead you get an increased pension from Spain that treats the UK contributions as if they were made to the Spanish system. And like most state pension systems, the Spanish system places a limit of how many years you can contribute and the maximum it will pay out.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> but you can't contribute for the periods before you were there.


I assume you mean "but you can't contribute for the periods before you were *not* there"?

You can continue to contribute into the UK state pension while working in another country. That's what I refer to as AVCs (Additional Voluntary Contributions) and I'm doing that right now. So are lots of other expats.


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## sansylivin (Sep 16, 2013)

Chopera said:


> Going the "EU" route limits the combined total of years of contributions for A + B to 35. Also in Spain the maximum state pension is about €2500/month so that's the most you can get (with nothing from the UK).
> 
> By keeping them separate and contributing to A and B at the same time, you can potentially claim 35 years for A and 35 years for B for a combined total of 70 years contributions. That's potentially €2500/month from Spain and around €940/month from the UK.


I´ve read the maximum Spanish pension is 35K per year or nearly E3K, or maybe you mean after tax (or 14 installments)?

Anyway my point remains the same if you don´t make the full 35 years for Spanish euro for euro if you could transfer the AVCs to Spain they are potentially worth more than 2.5 x the UK amount.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

sansylivin said:


> I´ve read the maximum Spanish pension is 35K per year or nearly E3K, or maybe you mean after tax (or 14 installments)?


I think it's 14 payments of €2567, which works out as €36k a year:

http://www.eleconomista.es/economia...maxima-un-42-por-encima-del-sueldo-medio.html



sansylivin said:


> Anyway my point remains the same if you don´t make the full 35 years for Spanish euro for euro if you could transfer the AVCs to Spain they are potentially worth more than 2.5 x the UK amount.


Yes I agree. If you're not going to work anywhere near 35 years in Spain, then going the "EU" route might make sense since the UK contributions will probably count for more in Spain. I'm not saying the "EU" system is necessarily the worse option, in fact it's probably best in most cases where people might work for a few years in another EU country, but not enough to qualify for a state pension in that country. I think that's the main case the system was designed for. However I don't think the "EU"system is the best option for every case.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Chopera said:


> I don't receive a Spanish pension but am in the same situation and have researched it a bit. From what I can tell, you have two options:
> 
> *1. Go the "EU" route whereby Spain recognises your previous UK contributions when you retire as if they were paid into the Spanish system, and you receive a larger Spanish state pension, but no UK state pension.*
> 
> ...


Correct me if I'm wrong but for a Brit who worked in the UK and has worked there long enough ( say 35 yrs )
to get the full UK State Pension based on he's NI record and lets say the same Brit subsequently moved to Spain
and worked the rest of he's working life in Spain, paying into the Spanish system but not long enough to get
the full 15 year entitlement. 

Would the same retired Brit who finished he's working life in Spain, get the full generous Spanish state pension
by using the EU Route with Spain - topping up the 15 years from the 35 years he paid into NI contributions in the UK; 
as if those 35 years had been spent paying it into the Spanish system ???

It's an interesting question, bearing in mind the number of Brits who might like the idea of spending the remaining
part of their working life in Spain !!


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Williams2 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but for a Brit who worked in the UK and has worked there long enough ( say 35 yrs )
> to get the full UK State Pension based on he's NI record and lets say the same Brit subsequently moved to Spain
> and worked the rest of he's working life in Spain, paying into the Spanish system but not long enough to get
> the full 15 year entitlement.
> ...


Yes I think that's the case but I'm not on expert on how they do the calculation. In fact if say you are going to work your last 5 years before retirement in Spain then you only need to have contributed 30 years to the UK system in order to make the full 35 years. However there are two parts to how Spain calculates the state pension: the total number of years paid in (max 35) and the amount you were paying in each month for the last 20 years (I think). I'm not sure if they count the UK contributions as if you were paying in the maximum amount each month or not, but they'll certainly take whatever you were paying in for those 5 years in Spain at face value. I think you need to earn a taxable €3,600/month in order to contribute the maximum into the Spanish system, and most people don't earn that much. That's why most Spaniards don't get anywhere near €36,000 pension each year. Not even half that.


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

Chopera said:


> That's not quite how I see it. My interpretation is that if you go the EU route you do not get the pension from the UK but instead you get an increased pension from Spain that treats the UK contributions as if they were made to the Spanish system. And like most state pension systems, the Spanish system places a limit of how many years you can contribute and the maximum it will pay out.


Interesting thread, but based I'm afraid on a false premise on how the system works. Firstly, as Baldilocks posted above you receive a pension from both Spain and the UK. Secondly, the amount you receive is always proportionate to the period of qualifying contributions. The methodology for the calculation is determined by the EU. 

Firstly they work out the amount you would receive based on contributions in their country. Secondly they work out the amount you would receive based on the total contributions in both countries (subject to the maximum) calculated proportionately. 
You are then paid the higher amount. Generally you are likely to receive a higher amount in Spain under the EU scheme, because the system is contribution based, whereas the the UK is time based.

For the avoidance of doubt they do not take into account voluntary contributions made in the other country.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

CapnBilly said:


> Interesting thread, but based I'm afraid on a false premise on how the system works. Firstly, as Baldilocks posted above you receive a pension from both Spain and the UK. Secondly, the amount you receive is always proportionate to the period of qualifying contributions. The methodology for the calculation is determined by the EU.
> 
> Firstly they work out the amount you would receive based on contributions in their country. Secondly they work out the amount you would receive based on the total contributions in both countries (subject to the maximum) calculated proportionately.
> You are then paid the higher amount. Generally you are likely to receive a higher amount in Spain under the EU scheme, because the system is contribution based, whereas the the UK is time based.
> ...


I did not say that!


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

CapnBilly said:


> Interesting thread, but based I'm afraid on a false premise on how the system works. Firstly, as Baldilocks posted above you receive a pension from both Spain and the UK. Secondly, the amount you receive is always proportionate to the period of qualifying contributions. The methodology for the calculation is determined by the EU.
> 
> Firstly they work out the amount you would receive based on contributions in their country. Secondly they work out the amount you would receive based on the total contributions in both countries (subject to the maximum) calculated proportionately.
> You are then paid the higher amount. Generally you are likely to receive a higher amount in Spain under the EU scheme, because the system is contribution based, whereas the the UK is time based.
> ...


I don't think I've said anything to the contrary to that. My point is that you can opt out of it and instead claim the state pension from the UK and the state pension from Spain independently. At least that what the UK authorities told me in writing, and Sansylivin on the phone.

I think it was Sansylivin who was asking about whether the AVCs counted and it looks like you've cleared that up.


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> You will be entitled to a pension from UK and, if you have paid enough in Spain, a Spanish pension as well..


Sorry, if I misquoted, but that's how I read this, and as I said you do receive two pensions. I didn't want to restate something that you had already stated quite correctly.


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

Chopera said:


> I don't think I've said anything to the contrary to that. My point is that you can opt out of it and instead claim the state pension from the UK and the state pension from Spain independently. At least that what the UK authorities told me in writing, and Sansylivin on the phone.
> .


I must have misunderstood your option 1 the EU route then, which I thought you had said :



Chopera said:


> That's not quite how I see it. My interpretation is that if you go the EU route you do not get the pension from the UK but instead you get an increased pension from Spain that treats the UK contributions as if they were made to the Spanish system. And like most state pension systems, the Spanish system places a limit of how many years you can contribute and the maximum it will pay out.


My point is that if you go the EU route then you would probably end up with higher pension than option 2, and you can still continue with increasing your UK pension through AVC's.


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## sansylivin (Sep 16, 2013)

CapnBilly said:


> Interesting thread, but based I'm afraid on a false premise on how the system works. Firstly, as Baldilocks posted above you receive a pension from both Spain and the UK. Secondly, the amount you receive is always proportionate to the period of qualifying contributions. The methodology for the calculation is determined by the EU.
> 
> Firstly they work out the amount you would receive based on contributions in their country. Secondly they work out the amount you would receive based on the total contributions in both countries (subject to the maximum) calculated proportionately.
> You are then paid the higher amount. Generally you are likely to receive a higher amount in Spain under the EU scheme, because the system is contribution based, whereas the the UK is time based.
> ...


Thanks for clearing that up about voluntary contributions - it sounded to good to be true!

Still it sounds like a good perk (potentially) for expats. To reiterate if you have worked at least 10years in UK (new minimum as of today) you can top uk to receive full UK pension. In addition if you are able to contribute at least 25 years to Spanish system (2013 rules was 15) in addition to UK you will receive a separate Spanish system (contribution based). If you have worked less than 25 years in Spain you can top it up from UK based (but not counting voluntary contributions) but you will not be able to have a full UK pension instead the UK will pay the proportional amount of your Spanish pension based upon your theoretical contribution. 

So moral of story- move from UK when young enough (less than 42 considering 67 pension age in Spain) but only if you have a job!!!!

Of course everything can change on June 24th


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

CapnBilly said:


> I must have misunderstood your option 1 the EU route then, which I thought you had said :
> 
> 
> 
> My point is that if you go the EU route then you would probably end up with higher pension than option 2, and you can still continue with increasing your UK pension through AVC's.


Ah OK I was probably wrong in my interpretation of the EU calculations. So for clarification, please consider the following case:

Jo works for 10 years in the UK and then 35 years in Spain. She retires in Spain. If she goes the EU route, do those 10 years worked in the UK count for anything?

My understanding is they don't count for anything because the contributions in Spain already take her to the 35 year limit.


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

Chopera said:


> Ah OK I was probably wrong in my interpretation of the EU calculations. So for clarification, please consider the following case:
> 
> Jo works for 10 years in the UK and then 35 years in Spain. She retires in Spain. If she goes the EU route, do those 10 years worked in the UK count for anything?
> 
> My understanding is they don't count for anything because the contributions in Spain already take her to the 35 year limit.


That's correct, and although they would technically count in the UK it would not make any difference because it is timed based.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

CapnBilly said:


> Interesting thread, but based I'm afraid on a false premise on how the system works. Firstly, as Baldilocks posted above you receive a pension from both Spain and the UK. Secondly, the amount you receive is always proportionate to the period of qualifying contributions. The methodology for the calculation is determined by the EU.
> 
> Firstly they work out the amount you would receive based on contributions in their country. Secondly they work out the amount you would receive based on the total contributions in both countries (subject to the maximum) calculated proportionately.
> You are then paid the higher amount. Generally you are likely to receive a higher amount in Spain under the EU scheme, because the system is contribution based, *whereas the the UK is time based.*
> ...


The UK is also contribution based. You may have been paying into the Uk system for 35 years but if you don't pay in sufficient contributions, a year doesn't count so although the UK doesn't require you to pay in X thousands, if you are short in any year it doesn't count towards your 35.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

CapnBilly said:


> That's correct, and although they would technically count in the UK it would not make any difference because it is timed based.


So for her case it's probably best to pay AVCs to the UK for another 25 years, while at the same time paying into the Spanish system. In theory she should then be able to claim the UK state pension as well as the Spanish state pension, and make those UK contributions count for something.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

CapnBilly said:


> I must have misunderstood your option 1 the EU route then, which I thought you had said :
> 
> My point is that if you go the EU route then you would probably end up with higher pension than option 2,* and you can still continue with increasing your UK pension through AVC's.*


Yes but if your going the EU route - which I assume most working Brits would do if they are spending the final part of their
working lives in Spain and will claim their Pension via the Spanish State system.

Why bother making additional UK AVC's ( unless the AVC's were into a Private & not the State Pension ? ) as chances
are, the same Brit would have built up sufficient NIC's to warrant getting the full UK State Pension ( eg 30 years NIC's )
without the need for making any additional voluntary NIC contributions for missing years !!
Also remember that even if you spent some working years - unemployed - looking for work, Jobcentre Plus would still
be making the usual NIC contributions, so long as you continued to sign in every 2 weeks, to declare that your out of
work but actively seeking employment.

In fact a friend of mine ( in he's 50's ) who spent some time on the dole, looking for work while signed up at
the Jobcentre - was advised by Jobcentre staff - when he's Job Seekers Allowance ran out - not to bother
signing on every fortnight - if he's NIC was upto date.
To which he rather angrily replied - yes but you forget. I have to register to account for missing employment
periods on account of pre-employment vetting & govt security cleared jobs !!!

As usual it will be down the individual to double check with the UK National Insurance Contributions centre ( DWP )
in Newcastle, to make sure they have have made sufficient minimum contributions to get the full state pension in
the UK upon retirement.


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