# Living in South Africa



## Bing (Sep 3, 2010)

I looked back at one of the posts I wrote a while ago because a fellow expat mentioned she saw it before she moved here, and I realised that there was a chain of reaction after my post. Lots of negative ones of course.

I just wanted to write a message here because my husband and I have been an expatriate here in Johannesburg for exactly a year now and I feel angry when I think back of all the negative feelings I had of this place because of all the bad stuff I had read about Joburg in expat forums especially in this one.

One year later, I can share that we like this city and country. And we have enjoyed living here. Yes, there is crime. But it's not everywhere on every street and in everyone's face. If it happens, which it has to some people we know, it's mostly carelessness and bad luck. We are careful and we enjoy the city.

This country is beautiful.. has mountains and seas, wineries and safaris.. has good lifestyle infrastructure and amenities.. has history, art and culture.. and most importantly, has nice people. Yes, a large part of the population is in poverty, that's why there are townships and there is crime. But the ones who keep harping about the crime are the ones who have done nothing to help the people who have been forced to live such lives.

There are problems in this country and alot of work needs to be done. But it is not the most horrible place on earth. We lived in Auckland, NZ for 3 years before we moved here. And I have loved living in Johannesburg as much as we have in Auckland, if not more. I've met hundreds of people (both locals and expats) since we arrived and have not met a single person who hates this place and can't wait to get out.

Johannesburg is a wonderful city and South Africa is a beautiful country. We have to be careful and watch out for crime. But it really isn't as scary as what has been portrayed online. The only people who have time to keep bashing SA online are probably the ones who have no life anywhere, no matter where they are. The ones who love SA are too busy having a great time and drinking their beers than to go online to align the negative perceptions.

If you are planning to come to SA, all I can say is give it a chance. The odds are you'll grow to love it here too. 

Cheers
Bing
(A once very frightened gal who never left her home in Joburg and now does community work in townships every week and take photographs with her DSLR every day in the city.)


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## Saartjie (Mar 1, 2010)

Bing said:


> I looked back at one of the posts I wrote a while ago because a fellow expat mentioned she saw it before she moved here, and I realised that there was a chain of reaction after my post. Lots of negative ones of course.
> 
> I just wanted to write a message here because my husband and I have been an expatriate here in Johannesburg for exactly a year now and I feel angry when I think back of all the negative feelings I had of this place because of all the bad stuff I had read about Joburg in expat forums especially in this one.
> 
> ...


Wow, it is so refreshing to hear a positive voice! We have also been in Joburg for a year now and absolutely love it so far. I agree with everything that you say. So glad to hear that someone else is having the same great experience as us here. Now just sit back and wait for the usual comments about how wrong we are and horrible and scary this place is.


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## bokbabe (Nov 28, 2010)

Bing said:


> I looked back at one of the posts I wrote a while ago because a fellow expat mentioned she saw it before she moved here, and I realised that there was a chain of reaction after my post. Lots of negative ones of course.
> 
> I just wanted to write a message here because my husband and I have been an expatriate here in Johannesburg for exactly a year now and I feel angry when I think back of all the negative feelings I had of this place because of all the bad stuff I had read about Joburg in expat forums especially in this one.
> 
> ...


Very well said Bing!! :clap2:

Saartjie, too true! Maybe this time "they" will let us have this thread as a positive one though *fingers crossed*!! :boxing:


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

If something should happen to change your minds, will you come back on here and say, Oops!My nerves are shot expecting it to happen again, I'm out of here, or will you shut up and keep your head low and never re-appear?

I've said it over and over and over, you can live there happily for 50 years and not understand what the fuss is about.
or one moments inattention can change your life forever.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

bokbabe said:


> Very well said Bing!! :clap2:
> 
> Saartjie, too true! Maybe this time "they" will let us have this thread as a positive one though *fingers crossed*!! :boxing:


Its not a case of "letting" you have a positive thread, its that 99% of the time here is an attack n anyone who has the slightest criticism of Paradise.
As an example, let me show you what I mean:

"But the ones who keep harping about the crime are the ones who have done nothing to help the people who have been forced to live such lives."

Think about that generalisation fora moment,

"The only people who have time to keep bashing SA online are probably the ones who have no life anywhere, "

Really? or do in excess f 1 million people have cheap ,reliable large capacity broadband .
"it's mostly carelessness and bad luck. We are careful and we enjoy the city."

Anyone who experiences crime was careless ergo its their own fault??

a quick question for you three ladies, if you feel that Poverty is the cause, if every South African was suddenly given lets say R20,000 as a gift, would that stop the Rapes and armed home invasions and senseless murders?

all the stuff that happens AFTER they have taken possesion of the cars and Hi-Fi's and electronic goodies?


would that solve SA's Crime problem?


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## Saartjie (Mar 1, 2010)

Daxk said:


> Its not a case of "letting" you have a positive thread, its that 99% of the time here is an attack n anyone who has the slightest criticism of Paradise.
> As an example, let me show you what I mean:
> 
> "But the ones who keep harping about the crime are the ones who have done nothing to help the people who have been forced to live such lives."
> ...


As previously stated, sit back and wait for the comments. I rest my case.


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## Saartjie (Mar 1, 2010)

bokbabe said:


> Very well said Bing!! :clap2:
> 
> Saartjie, too true! Maybe this time "they" will let us have this thread as a positive one though *fingers crossed*!! :boxing:


As expected they keep on coming. Ignore it and stay positive. After all, we are actually the ones living here at the moment.


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## Stevan (Jun 30, 2009)

Daxk said:


> Its not a case of "letting" you have a positive thread, its that 99% of the time here is an attack n anyone who has the slightest criticism of Paradise.
> As an example, let me show you what I mean:
> 
> "But the ones who keep harping about the crime are the ones who have done nothing to help the people who have been forced to live such lives."
> ...


Daxk

I always read your replies with intrest and find them to be well presented. i do not always agree with them, as im sure you do nt always agree with mu posts. i accept that, it is how it should be. your advice on specific questions is always excelent especialy involving starting new enterprises in SA. my problem is not with balanced well thought out negative replies like yours. It is with these constant on liners. sombody says they are thinking of moving over, then the barage of on line posts start. 

Daxk this is not aimed at you but a genral observation. I thought we had the shebeen to fight in, let us keep the main section to answering queryies that people may post. For god sake we are all adults here somtimes we need to act like it. Yes lets have fun and laugh, but i am getting sick of nearly every thread degenerating into a personal slagging match.

here is a thought, we got a "like" button lets have a "dislike button"

rant over back to my corner to sulk.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Stevan, certainly, you may also notice another characteristic of my posts, I do not attack people or try and post demeaning comments.
I try and post as a rational normal adult speaking to another rational normal adult.

I have highlighted what i consider to be ill advised comments.

Bokbabe, would you mind answering the question asked? if Poverty is the main driver, would my suggestion stop the Violent crime?


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## Stevan (Jun 30, 2009)

Daxk said:


> Stevan, certainly, you may also notice another characteristic of my posts, I do not attack people or try and post demeaning comments.
> I try and post as a rational normal adult speaking to another rational normal adult.
> 
> I have highlighted what i consider to be ill advised comments.
> ...


Daxk

i agree and fully support your position to reply and have never seen you attack. i appoligise if you see my previous post as aimed at you as that was not my intention. with hind sight, the only sight that is still 20/20 with me, i should not have wrote as a reply to you. my point is that open and frank debate is good and should be incouraged. My concern is the flipent one liners. sombody asks how much bread is in cape town and the reply is "you gonna die on the way to shop buying it". to balance sombody post crime stats, and the reply is "Buls**t you made it up. there are people on botj sides of the great divided that need to behave a lot better on here. lets stop throwing stones at each other and sit and talk like grown ups.

again i would apolligies whole heartedly to you daxk if i offended, i by no means meant to singal you out by my comments they were aimed at our little online comunity in general. and to both sides.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Bing? Saartjie? Bokbabe??
It is after all a simple question, would giving every South African, especially the 63% who are living in Poverty R20,000 each stop the violence and rapes prevalent in Armed Home Invasions?
would it stop the crime ?


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

Chris Green said:


> We shouldn’t praise Zuma for these steps as much as we should praise Thuli Madonsela, the Public Protector. She has been unshakeable, even in the face of intimidation and dirty tricks. But she has also been wise: she’s taking the public with her every step of the way of her crusade for clean government. She is precious to our democracy and all responsible politicians and civil society should protect her in turn.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Very true, but then, Thuli has been doing what she is being paid to do ( with good results ).... one would expect that of everyone. Unfortunately, in many instances and in many countries, this does not seem to be the norm anymore!

Thanks for this article Chis!


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## saffer (Nov 2, 2011)

Daxk said:


> Bing? Saartjie? Bokbabe??
> It is after all a simple question, would giving every South African, especially the 63% who are living in Poverty R20,000 each stop the violence and rapes prevalent in Armed Home Invasions?
> would it stop the crime ?


Why should anyone answer when you are "begging the question"?


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## saffer (Nov 2, 2011)

Johanna said:


> Very true, but then, Thuli has been doing what she is being paid to do ( with good results ).... one would expect that of everyone. Unfortunately, in many instances and in many countries, this does not seem to be the norm anymore!
> 
> Thanks for this article Chis!


I would say there are more than a handful on the A.N.C who are decent but nobody really wants to read about that in the papers so we aren't fed it by the media. We've had good finance ministers through the years for example. It's a pity the public too often fixate on and give the wrong people like Julius Malema their attention which in turn gives the public impression such bufoons are running the country.


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## saffer (Nov 2, 2011)

Daxk said:


> Bing? Saartjie? Bokbabe??
> It is after all a simple question, would giving every South African, especially the 63% who are living in Poverty R20,000 each stop the violence and rapes prevalent in Armed Home Invasions?
> would it stop the crime ?


I don't know why I bother answering this as everything I post no matter how quaint gets deleted as "off topic". I suppose it will be interesting that your question is deemed on topic and my answering is off topic. Shrug.

Is this your solution to ending poverty ? Giving people with nothing R 20 000 rand ? What are people with nothing going to do with that money to end their plight ? Sounds absurd. 

But from personal experience it actually would help a lot of people start micro businesses. I've seen how in the poor community I do social work in a person can make a living by just owning a computer, printer and fax machine by doing cv's for people, printing their photo's, copying their documents,sending faxes for them, burning them dvd's or cd's etc. How another borrowed money to buy a butcher saw and now makes a living by cutting up people's meat or buying it and selling meat packs on credit. A person with a little imagination could actually do a lot with 20 000. But will it stop crime ? Of course not. 

The type of people who commit crimes would blow the money in a week on alcohol and drugs. It would probably escalate crime. But that's a very simplistic way of ending poverty. It's not poverty that'd the problem. Let me explain what the problem is.

All of the human behaviour and sentiments that exist within healthy societies are able to exist because people's basic needs are met. That is to say they have shelter, food, safety and water. Without these things a person can never transcend their animal needs. We revert to a primeval state of being. A child who is hungry or cold will not appreciate a fine art work. The child's parents can not concentrate on socialising this child correctly if they too are suffering. 

In rural South Africa where people still live with subsistence farming etc and their basic needs are met via warm mud huts, home grown food and social tribal structure this dysfunctional behaviour is almost entirely absent. Health family values and traditions exist and there is a lot of love in the community. Sadly this has too long been absent in the city slums. 

I won't go on as I think you can expand the idea yourself to all aspects of life. For more read "Maslows hierarchy of needs".


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

saffer said:


> I don't know why I bother answering this as everything I post no matter how quaint gets deleted as "off topic". I suppose it will be interesting that your question is deemed on topic and my answering is off topic. Shrug.
> 
> Is this your solution to ending poverty ? Giving people with nothing R 20 000 rand ? What are people with nothing going to do with that money to end their plight ? Sounds absurd.
> 
> ...



In answer to your first paragraph, We delete anything that is aggressive or unpleasant ! 

Jo


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## saffer (Nov 2, 2011)

jojo said:


> In answer to your first paragraph, We delete anything that is aggressive or unpleasant !
> 
> Jo


Now I'm even more confused. There was no possible way that I can see how anyone could have determined anything I have posted here as either of those things. The one thread a poster said he took issue with people posting "nasty one liners". A few posts later a chap posted what was exactly that and my post read.

"Example of a snide one liner ?"

It's not nasty. It's not unpleasant (what he posted was very unpleasant), and it's certainly not off topic.


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

saffer said:


> Now I'm even more confused. There was no possible way that I can see how anyone could have determined anything I have posted here as either of those things. The one thread a poster said he took issue with people posting "nasty one liners". A few posts later a chap posted what was exactly that and my post read.
> 
> "Example of a snide one liner ?"
> 
> It's not nasty. It's not unpleasant (what he posted was very unpleasant), and it's certainly not off topic.


I re-instated the said posting, but if this leads to any unpleasantness on the threads, you know what the consequences will be!


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Living in Sa means confronting he crime issue.

As Saffer aka *.* pointed out giving people money might help alleviate poverty but it wont do anything for crime.

so anyone who blames serious crime on Poverty is missing the point.

Shoplifting for Food, bag snatching, petty crime perhaps... but not serious crime.
why should someone work for me for a month at Minimum wage plus food and a room when he can earn a months salary in 3 hours with a gun?
plus the fringe benefits?

SA does not have real poverty, there are no starving children dying of malnutrition.

The Municipalities have budgets for manual labour infrastructure maintenance.
have a look at their Job sites, in a Country of excessively high unemployment, they have vacancies.

The youth who have dropped out of School and are (and will continue to be) unemployable except as manual labour need to be conscripted into a Land Army, clothed, fed, educated and taught a skill while they work at infrastructure projects.
projects SA needs.

will it happen?


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

Daxk said:


> The youth who have dropped out of School and are (and will continue to be) unemployable except as manual labour need to be conscripted into a Land Army, clothed, fed, educated and taught a skill while they work at infrastructure projects.
> projects SA needs.
> 
> will it happen?



Gosh, you sound like David Cameron!


:clap2::clap2:


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Johanna said:


> Gosh, you sound like David Cameron!
> 
> 
> :clap2::clap2:


Damn!! Sussed!! please dont tell.


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

Daxk said:


> Damn!! Sussed!! please dont tell.


 * no smily for.. my lips are sealed*


Mum's the word!


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## Saartjie (Mar 1, 2010)

Daxk said:


> Bing? Saartjie? Bokbabe??
> It is after all a simple question, would giving every South African, especially the 63% who are living in Poverty R20,000 each stop the violence and rapes prevalent in Armed Home Invasions?
> would it stop the crime ?


For the record, I do not think that poverty is the cause of all crime at all. I think it plays a major part of it but certainly is not the cause of all crime. The answer to your question is quite simple to me. Of course it would not. R20,000 would only help a person who wants to be helped and who uses the money wisely. What difference would R20,000 do to someone that rapes women (on the assumption that he does not do so for money).


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## bokbabe (Nov 28, 2010)

Daxk said:


> Bokbabe, would you mind answering the question asked? if Poverty is the main driver, would my suggestion stop the Violent crime?


Not sure when I have ever said that poverty is the main driver... I was agreeing with the main point of Bing's original post... that SA is a great place to live!!

If you are pushing me for an answer tho, I would agree that your suggestion wouldn't stop the violent crime.... as you correctly pointed out that it usually happens after the theft. I am not blind to the problems Daxk, I just don't agree with your COMPLETE doom and gloom view on SA!!!

P.s: I wasn't ignoring you, just had 2 busy days at the office


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## bokbabe (Nov 28, 2010)

Johanna, why was the "considering moving back to SA thread closed"? I wanted to reply to Daxk about Midrand etc!!

Oh well, will need to do so here!!! 

Daxk, I don't look at the online stats and I only look briefly at the Midrand Reporter...certainly not online, do they even have a website?? Look, I was born in the sandton clinic and brought up in Carlswald and I lived there until moving abroad in 1997 so I can see the changes here more than anyone! I remember the days when the Midrand Reporter just reported on what school had won the interschool athletics and when I did well on my pony... you certainly get alot more in there these days and that does sadden me. However Midrand used to be the @rse end of nowhere and now it is a massive Town/City (whichever) We also have alot of Townships in close vicinity and so I guess that doesn't help things much. 

What I am trying to say is that, you can look at the stats and, yes they may look scary, but living here....you don't really feel it. The best thing for me about Midrand, I think, is that there are still so many of my school buddies here (I went to halfway house primary) and alot of them have their own businesses and are doing so well for themselves...better than some of us who went scampering off to rainier climes! If things were so much worse here (in Midrand) than in the good old days, then surely they would have left too?

Anyway, not looking for a reply, or more online stats to back up your comments, or even some lovely one liners from Halo... the above is purely my opinion and how I feel about where I live.


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