# General election in November



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

ZP is expected to announce today that the elections will be brought forward to 20 November, 4 months early.

Las elecciones serán a mediados de noviembre | Política | EL PAÍS


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

For info -only Spanish nationals can vote in the general and regional elections.

Nationals from other EU countries can vote in the European elections (due in 2014), and anyone can vote in municipal elections provided they have residency and are registered on the electoral census.

British citizens resident in Spain for less than 15 years can vote in UK general elections.

Portal Electoral - Derecho de sufragio activo


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Well, we can put money on the outcome....
I will never understand why people vote Right in times of crisis brought on by the Right.
But we live in a democracy and that is our prerogative, to vote as we choose.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Well, we can put money on the outcome....
> I will never understand why people vote Right in times of crisis brought on by the Right.
> But we live in a democracy and that is our prerogative, to vote as we choose.


except that here, WE can't


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> except that here, WE can't


I was generalising.....
If I could vote here, I'd be on the losing side...


----------



## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Here the people tend to vote for the separatists who are seeking Independence from Spain.


----------



## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

really!? I had no idea tha Canarias wanted independence too. 
I wonder if is there any Madrileno separatist party. 



> I will never understand why people vote Right in times of crisis brought on by the Right


THere is this popular idea in Spain that right are good for economic reform and left for social reform, whether that's true or not needs to be seen. I think there is no other choice, either has to be PP or PSOE (or IU, which most people percieve as some kind of comunist lunatics).

PP don't call themselves Right. 

Whichever wins, I hope transparency and money wisely spent, as well as new laws and aproaches to job creation should be the main focus.


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

I have to agree, and the swing will probably be to the right, it's like a kids comfort blanket for some reason. The shame is that of course the real reason for the early election is nothing to do with 'people power' or guilt but more likely the fact the Moody yesterday threatened to downgrade Spain's borrowing status and the worsening situation.
One thing for sure is that the much vaunted 'new parties' such as dry are going to have a very insignificant effect in November, probably a shame in many ways but at least they will now have a long time to prepare for the next one. Having said that one option that is very much on the cards is a 'hung' parliament, like the UK, often the result of messes like we are in.
I think what frightens me most is the fact that the prediction I made a few months ago of a second deeper recession is daily looking more likely. I guess we will know by Tuesday. As Winston Churchill said "You can always rely on America to do the right thing, but only after they have explored every other option".
Think of it, or maybe try not to think about it, a Spanish election in the middle of another deeper crisis.......

Talking to Spanish friends in Almeria yesterday and here (Alicante) in the evening generally resulted in a shrug of the shoulders and a complete lack of interest in the outcome of any election. Damned if we do and damned if we don't springs to mind.


----------



## agua642 (May 24, 2009)

The election date for Nov is the same date that Franco died! Did any1 know this info, my daughter has just told me..


----------



## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I have Canarian friends who do not believe in voting, they never have and probably never will.


----------



## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Sonrisa said:


> really!? I had no idea tha Canarias wanted independence too.
> I wonder if is there any Madrileno separatist party.


Yes the Coalición Canario, they have been in control of this island for over 30 years.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Happyexpat said:


> I have to agree, and the swing will probably be to the right, it's like a kids comfort blanket for some reason. The shame is that of course the real reason for the early election is nothing to do with 'people power' or guilt but more likely the fact the Moody yesterday threatened to downgrade Spain's borrowing status and the worsening situation.
> One thing for sure is that the much vaunted 'new parties' such as dry are going to have a very insignificant effect in November, probably a shame in many ways but at least they will now have a long time to prepare for the next one. Having said that one option that is very much on the cards is a 'hung' parliament, like the UK, often the result of messes like we are in.
> I think what frightens me most is the fact that the prediction I made a few months ago of a second deeper recession is daily looking more likely. I guess we will know by Tuesday. As Winston Churchill said "You can always rely on America to do the right thing, but only after they have explored every other option".
> Think of it, or maybe try not to think about it, a Spanish election in the middle of another deeper crisis.......
> ...


What are these much vaunted new parties? DRY is not a political party. Quite the opposite.

I can see why your friends are shrugging their shoulders. Whoever wins, the outcome will be the more or less the same because both the PP and PSOE support the austerity measures imposed by the IMF and both of them will be trying to attract new investment by reducing job security.

The PP have promised to do away with some of the PSOE's more progressive legislation like gay marriage. That would be a shame. 

I suspect the election was bought forward because Rubalcaba is more popular than Rajoy at the moment and although the PSOE won´t win outright, the outcome might be close enough for some sort of consensus government.


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

I agree DRY is not a political party or anything as far as I can see though they did attempt to produce a manifesto so maybe I should not have mentioned them as much vaunted.......
As for certain 'liberal' policies being scrapped as per the example of Gay marriage I'm afraid I fail to see the justification in bringing it in anyway. In terms of legal property rights it can be done with a contract. Although I am not and do not purport to be a modern Christian it does seem to me that there is bit of hypocrisy in allowing it anyway. That however is probably a contentious issue, off the subject and as a non believer in the rubbish and lies the modern church spills out nothing to do with me anyway. Religion and politics, great way to start an argument.........however non intended in this case just personal views.


----------



## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> The PP have promised to do away with some of the PSOE's more progressive legislation like gay marriage. That would be a shame.
> .


Hello Alcalina, 

THe PP haven't promised anything about changing the law with regards to gay marriage. That would be devastating, since the law was placed in 2005, around 20,000 (homosexual) families have been formed, that would be a huge step backwards and quite honestly, whoever takes power have more pressing issues to deal with thant ruining happy families. 

Yes, Rajoy is a homophobe and he does not try to hide this fact, and probably socially inept too, which is why he gets in my nervs, but many in the PP accept and suport the law, Villalobos, Ruiz Gallardon, Elias Bendodo, Esperanza Aguirre to name a few, as well as many PP voters who have accepted and welcomed these (positive) changes within the spanish society.


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

I think I need to make the point that I am not in the class of 'homophobe' and have a number of very good 'gay' friends but actually in the 'couldn't care less' one. Live and let live is my motto as long as it doesn't adversly effect me which it doesn't. However I fail to see why a law, based on principles set out 2000 years ago for quite sensible procreation reasons, should be altered. I also can't quite link the suggestion that Rajoy being a homophobe and is thus socially inept. Is one a requirement of the other I wonder.....

Anyway back to the point. The more I talk to people the more convinced I am getting that this election is going to be a low turnout which might make the result interesting. Having been here 10 years and very often listened to the political arguments often loudly expressed in our local bar I don't think I have ever seen such apathy before. Unfortunately I think I actually tend to agree with them, the IMF will still have its way, the EEC will still bumble along and nothing will change for the better, certainly in the short to medium term. No party is going to be able to change much at the moment whatever the result. That is the fundamental problem with Globalisation!

Is it the same everywhere I wonder or is this a local attitude? 



Sonrisa said:


> Hello Alcalina,
> 
> THe PP haven't promised anything about changing the law with regards to gay marriage. That would be devastating, since the law was placed in 2005, around 20,000 (homosexual) families have been formed, that would be a huge step backwards and quite honestly, whoever takes power have more pressing issues to deal with thant ruining happy families.
> 
> Yes, Rajoy is a homophobe and he does not try to hide this fact, and probably socially inept too, which is why he gets in my nervs, but many in the PP accept and suport the law, Villalobos, Ruiz Gallardon, Elias Bendodo, Esperanza Aguirre to name a few, as well as many PP voters who have accepted and welcomed these (positive) changes within the spanish society.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Sonrisa said:


> Hello Alcalina,
> 
> THe PP haven't promised anything about changing the law with regards to gay marriage. That would be devastating, since the law was placed in 2005, around 20,000 (homosexual) families have been formed, that would be a huge step backwards and quite honestly, whoever takes power have more pressing issues to deal with thant ruining happy families.
> 
> Yes, Rajoy is a homophobe and he does not try to hide this fact, and probably socially inept too, which is why he gets in my nervs, but many in the PP accept and suport the law, Villalobos, Ruiz Gallardon, Elias Bendodo, Esperanza Aguirre to name a few, as well as many PP voters who have accepted and welcomed these (positive) changes within the spanish society.


It is high on the agenda for some of the far right and religious zealots who lurk in the corners of the PP though. Let's hope moderation prevails.
Aído insta al PP a retirar el recurso contra el matrimonio homosexual - Público.es


----------



## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

Happyexpat said:


> . I also can't quite link the suggestion that Rajoy being a homophobe and is thus socially inept. Is one a requirement of the other I wonder.....


Lol, I meant to say that he is a homophobe AND comes across as socially inept too , as in akward in social events and speeches, not a good comunicator, this is unrelated to the fact that he is homophobic.


----------



## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> It is high on the agenda for some of the far right and religious zealots who lurk in the corners of the PP though. Let's hope moderation prevails.
> Aído insta al PP a retirar el recurso contra el matrimonio homosexual - Público.es


I see, but don't left parties just love to cry wolf and scare liberal voters into thinking that PP are a bunch of tight fascist that disaprove of all the social reforms that Spain has witnessed in recent years.


----------



## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

Happyexpat said:


> IAnyway back to the point. The more I talk to people the more convinced I am getting that this election is going to be a low turnout which might make the result interesting. Having been here 10 years and very often listened to the political arguments often loudly expressed in our local bar I don't think I have ever seen such apathy before. Unfortunately I think I actually tend to agree with them, the IMF will still have its way, the EEC will still bumble along and nothing will change for the better, certainly in the short to medium term. No party is going to be able to change much at the moment whatever the result. That is the fundamental problem with Globalisation!
> QUOTE]
> 
> True. Nobody expects big changes and it's only natural that apathy sets in.
> But little things can still make a difference. Perhaps a change in legislation and more support to entrepeneurs and small enterprises, maybe more control on how public money is spent and where it goes, hopefully less corruption.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Sonrisa said:


> I see, but don't left parties just love to cry wolf and scare liberal voters into thinking that PP are a bunch of tight fascist that disaprove of all the social reforms that Spain has witnessed in recent years.


And of course parties on the right would never do anything so underhand, would they?  Like scaring liberal voters into thinking that the left are going to hike up taxes and fill the country with immigrants?


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

How could you even think such a thought.......


Alcalaina said:


> And of course parties on the right would never do anything so underhand, would they?  Like scaring liberal voters into thinking that the left are going to hike up taxes and fill the country with immigrants?


----------



## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I wonder why people argue about political policies, the same boring, left is best, right is better and who ever is in power it is always the fault of the last lot.

Yawnnnnnn


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Hepa said:


> I wonder why people argue about political policies, the same boring, left is best, right is better and who ever is in power it is always the fault of the last lot.
> 
> Yawnnnnnn


Yes I agree. I love a good argument but the ones I like are about fact and fallacious thinking - ones which can be won by the introduction of evidence or the pointing out of a fallacy. Politics is all opinion and bias. Not for me.


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

*Add to the list*

I think you have to add religion to the list of pointless arguments, probably more so. Funny though, both the subjects cause more distress and war than everything else.....


jimenato said:


> Yes I agree. I love a good argument but the ones I like are about fact and fallacious thinking - ones which can be won by the introduction of evidence or the pointing out of a fallacy. Politics is all opinion and bias. Not for me.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Hepa said:


> I wonder why people argue about political policies, the same boring, left is best, right is better and who ever is in power it is always the fault of the last lot.
> 
> Yawnnnnnn


Because the minute we stop arguing, we stop thinking??

Although of course a lot of people argue without thinking. I must confess I'm guilty of that sometimes :boxing: 

But seeing the world from many different people's points of view on this forum has certainly helped me get a clearer picture of my own perspective.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Because the minute we stop arguing, we stop thinking??
> 
> Although of course a lot of people argue without thinking. I must confess I'm guilty of that sometimes :boxing:
> 
> But seeing the world from many different people's points of view on this forum has certainly helped me get a clearer picture of my own perspective.



How true is your first sentence.
Since no longer regularly involved in politics I miss the debate and argument that were a huge part of my life.
As my OH more or less agrees with my political views (although more left inclined) I have only you to argue with.......
As for the PP/PSOE 'differences' I agree with Sonrisa. Whichever party wins will have little room for manoeuvre until the IMF, World Bank and other global organisations are purged of neo-con ideologues.
Although I helped PSOE in the election in May I have to admit they screwed up big-time in our Municipality and have left the Town Hall insolvent with debts of 270 million euros. The new PP Mayor has made a good start on putting right little things that have a big impact: getting the fountains flowing, more police patrols, paying the Municipal Band their back wages so they can perform their free Sunday concerts again for the summer season.
The art of practical politics is imo achieving a balance. For some people, a world without money and private property would be heaven.. For others, it would be hell.
What I find dangerous and frightening is that there is a drift to the far right across Europe and far-right parties have won power and influence across the EU and beyond.
People are afraid that immigrants will reduce wages, take their jobs and impose on scarce resources and to some extent their fears are justified. This was certainly the case in our area of the UK where Portuguese and former Soviet bloc states citizens worked for peanuts and doctors' surgeries and schools were hard=pressed to cope with the sudden arrival of quite large numbers of non-English-speaking foreigners.
Here in Spain I heard of an employer who is paying Czech immigrants 4 euros an hour to work for her.
Working people are not on the whole internationalist in their thinking. They think in concrete terms not in abstractions. 
Whichever party wins in November will have to take swift action to deal with unemployment. Changing the crazy autonomo tax regime and the too-rigid redundancy laws are an essential first step.
As for gay marriage...I agree with Sonrisa, not all PP supporters are against it.
Personally, OH and I are Civilly Partnered (I occasionally have to stress the 'civil' part) and feel no need to get 'married' - we've both been married before, over thirty years ago, and have no wish to repeat the experience.
We went through the ceremony primarily to ensure we could inherit from each other although we had a great day with friends and family.
I'd like to see marriage replaced with civil partnerships for heterosexuals.
Banning gay marriage for those who wish it is imo a mean, spiteful little act which few will support.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hepa said:


> I have Canarian friends who do not believe in voting, they never have and probably never will.


Ah....but do they believe in complaining about whichever Government is in power?
People have the right NOT to vote and to be disinterested in politics, although it's an outlook I personally find incomprehensible.
Point is though, how else in a democracy can people effectively express their hopes and wishes?


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Ah....but do they believe in complaining about whichever Government is in power?
> People have the right NOT to vote and to be disinterested in politics, although it's an outlook I personally find incomprehensible.
> Point is though, how else in a democracy can people effectively express their hopes and wishes?


By marching around with banners and sitting down in city squares. Obviously.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> By marching around with banners and sitting down in city squares. Obviously.


Yes, I used to think that.....I've parked my derriere in many a public place and my poor son was often pushed round in a stroller festooned with stickers, slogans etc.
I've worn out shoe leather marching.
All of which achieved....nothing, nada, nichts, nics, rien etc. etc.
Imperfect as any kind of governance devised by imperfect humans will be, it seems clear that the free and unimpeded use of the ballot box is as yet the best way of ascertaining people's preferences.
Wishful thinking to imagine that a load of people in public places in western democracies will bring down governments. Neither imo should they. People in Spain know the score and if they return the PP in November....the people have spoken..
Of course people power has removed odious regimes that no longer have popular support and ruled by means of terror and repression and without legitimacy.....mainly socialist ones, as in Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, etc. and also some centralised autocratic regimes in the Middle East, although we may be less than pleased at the nature of their successors....


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

*Uncertain times*

I am not to sure THEY are too pleased with the results they have got so far, particularly in Egypt let alone us.

I totally agree with your comment re the shift to the far right but has it not always been the case, it certainly has in the UK over my lifetime. We have a left Governement, maybe even moderate left but it still throws up a far right at some stage, Maggie has got to be the prime example!. The converse is of course not necessarily true. A far right governement is often followed by centre left, as if people are looking for moderation.

Now that is in normal times, in these times I would say the 'ball is bouncing'. It really will depend on the States sorting itself out rapidly because if there is another dip I think the outcome of any election will be impossible to predict. Its looking hopeful over there but it isn't a completely 'done deal' as of 15 minutes ago.

Trust has without doubt gone from politics this will lead to an apathetic vote which in turn means that parties with no hope of getting anything suddenly find their percentage share of the overall vote up! We have to remember that generally speaking it is radical parties that get their people into the booths easier than established parties!

I cannot think of a better way for the people than the ballot box, trouble is I wish I could.....



mrypg9 said:


> Yes, I used to think that.....I've parked my derriere in many a public place and my poor son was often pushed round in a stroller festooned with stickers, slogans etc.
> I've worn out shoe leather marching.
> All of which achieved....nothing, nada, nichts, nics, rien etc. etc.
> Imperfect as any kind of governance devised by imperfect humans will be, it seems clear that the free and unimpeded use of the ballot box is as yet the best way of ascertaining people's preferences.
> ...


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> . Politics is all opinion and bias. Not for me.


Disagree!!!!:boxing:
As far as I was concerned, I got involved in politics to make a difference to people's lives, whether by providing affordable social housing, better schools, a better environment or merely by sorting out those little problems that are solved more easily if you know the 'right' person to contact. To some extent I succeeded but I couldn't achieve everything on my wish-list, unfortunately.
You are right in that ideology-based politics is often founded on nothing more than good intentions and wishful thinking. As I see it, society is composed of millions of individuals, each with their unique needs and wants and their own set of values. As I posted earlier, one person's idea of heaven is another person's vision of hell. The art of politics as practice rather than politics as theory lies in achieving a balance, difficult though that can be. 
Societies without politics are dictatorships. Period.
The first act of repressive regimes, whether of right or left, is to suppress political opposition.
Politics, however trivial and venal, equals freedom.


----------



## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Ah....but do they believe in complaining about whichever Government is in power?
> People have the right NOT to vote and to be disinterested in politics, although it's an outlook I personally find incomprehensible.
> Point is though, how else in a democracy can people effectively express their hopes and wishes?



I do not know if they complain, they live on another island. However the refusal to vote stems from the years of General Franco, when , I am informed, that a selected member of a family was made to vote, but could only vote for Franco and his supporters.

Because of those years, nowadays they are somewhat alienated against politicians and the like, my friends and many more refuse to vote or have anything to do with the Elections or the outcome.

I always vote, when I can, but wonder if my vote has made a farthings difference to life in the old country, I think not,

Hepa


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Spain's bond yield now at 6.45%......Thursday's bond auction will be very interesting, to say the least.
7% is regarded as unsustainable for state borrowing.
I've been trying to find a succint statement of the economic policies which the PP have formulated to get the economy moving and restore market confidence.
Barring a minor miracle, the PP will emerge as the victors in the November election.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Good analysis of why the elections were brought forward;

Who benefits from Spain’s early election? | Iberosphere


> A closer look at the “Rubalcaba factor” argument – which presents the Socialist candidate as a secret weapon whose political nous will see him cut into the PP lead – shows it to be somewhat exaggerated. According to Metroscopia polling firm, the PP’s lead is still 14 points – unchanged since Rubalcaba’s unveiling as candidate. Rajoy’s ploy of going to the vote as soon as possible to avoid spooking voters and cashing in on his party’s current poll lead looks more watertight.
> 
> If the Socialists manage somehow to ensure the campaign does not focus exclusively on the economy, they might do some damage to the PP. Right now, that looks an extremely tall order. Even if Spain can ward off current EU bailout speculation, the country is going to have to fend off such panic at least until November 20, making the economy the only obvious talking point.
> 
> And the more the interest on Spain’s debt spirals out of control over the summer and autumn, the more likely Rajoy can be assured of strolling into Moncloa prime minister’s residence in the winter. Once there though, he might not see the task ahead of him as quite so appealing.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I've been trying to find a succinct statement of the economic policies which the PP have formulated to get the economy moving and restore market confidence.


I don´t think such a thing exists! Another quote from the Iberosphere article:



> PP leader Mariano Rajoy has focused his opposition strategy on Spain’s economic woes. *Refusing to support government austerity plans or offer a detailed plan of his own,* he has allowed Zapatero to dig his own hole. Europe’s highest unemployment rate has done Rajoy’s work for him, burying the economic credibility of the government.
> 
> But it’s a strategy that can only last so long. Rajoy agitated for an early date because he feared another six or seven months of keeping his head down and avoiding specifics would start costing him in the polls.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Hepa said:


> I do not know if they complain, they live on another island. However the refusal to vote stems from the years of General Franco, when , I am informed, that a selected member of a family was made to vote, but could only vote for Franco and his supporters.
> 
> Hepa


Odd, I didn't think there were any elections under Franco, even rigged ones. There was a referendum in 1947 confirming him as life-long leader, maybe that´s that they were referring to. I can't imagine anyone would have dared to vote no.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Odd, I didn't think there were any elections under Franco, even rigged ones. There was a referendum in 1947 confirming him as life-long leader, maybe that´s that they were referring to. I can't imagine anyone would have dared to vote no.


There were no politics in the Franco years. Resistance, severely punished, yes. Until recently I was unaware that serious abuses such as taking children from 'undesirable' parents and placing them in good, Catholic homes continued right up to 1974. I remember talking to Spanish communists in London when I was a 'comrade' many years ago. I don't think most people are aware of the spitefulness as well as the savage repression of those years.
PP, PSOE, any party will be in thrall to the markets until the hold is broken...yet how??
This isn't a new phenomenon per se....Harold Wilson used to bang on about the 'Gnomes of Zurich'. But the IMF etc have since the so-called 'end of history' managed to get a stranglehold on far too many economies.
Simply defaulting is no way out. Governments need money to pay wages, pensions, keep liquidity in the system. Western economies are too complex for such simplistic solutions.
As for some kind of revolution, whether peaceful or violent...forget about it. It's not going to happen. Demos etc. are good for putting pressure on elected governments but the street should never rule as the street rarely represents the majority....that has only been the case in the breakdown of the former Soviet bloc people's republics.
Global regulation of the financial sector has to come about and it seems that behind the scenes a framework is being hammered out. The market has to be tamed so it serves society, not rules it as at present.
I did some reading up on the record of the last PP government and for whatever reason the economy seems to have been on a sound footing. But that was pre-crisis.
The real problem in Spain is the consequence of the ill-judged policy of attracting middle and low-income Northern Europeans like me to end their days here. The unsustainable construction boom has much to answer for....environment despoilation as well as massive unemployment and a dramatic fall in property values.
Incidently, reading posts on another site colonised mainly by Brit whingers, I was amused to find that people with negative equity are now accusing Spanish mortgage lenders of over-valuing their properties when they bought them.......
What was it Oscar Wilde said about price and value??
Why is it that people don't accept the down side of the market economy when they enjoy the prosperity brought by the good times


----------



## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

If people or governments didn't borrow or only borrowed what they can or could pay back, then you would have a sound economy.

Regarding Franco placing children in good Roman Catholic homes, who are the British to criticise, we sent ours to Australia and they ended up as unpaid workers and servants, until they became adults.

I don't think pensioners from other countries retiring in Spain is detrimental to the Spanish economy, to the contrary, by spending our pensions/savings here we are contributing to the economy and indirectly creating work. We have to eat, drink, fuel the car, we travel, relatives and friends visit us, we pay local taxes, our properties need servicing, all this has to be paid for, and is funded by our pensions from our place of origin or from the earnings of those who visit us.
The counties of origin are the losers the spending power of the pensioners has gone elsewhere.


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

I would say that one of the real causes of the problems in Spain is the ill advised borrowing and spending habits of the previous administrations which were largely PSOE.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Hepa said:


> If people or governments didn't borrow or only borrowed what they can or could pay back, then you would have a sound economy.


I think that's a bit simplistic. An individual who borrows money to blow on luxuries is different from one who borrows to invest in her or or family's future. It's not much different with governments. What is important is that buying and selling loans shouldn't become more profitable than investing in employment-generating activities, which is precisely what has happened. Until this issue is addressed, we are all going down the plughole.


Hepa said:


> Regarding Franco placing children in good Roman Catholic homes, who are the British to criticise, we sent ours to Australia and they ended up as unpaid workers and servants, until they became adults.


Very true, but we still have the right to criticise! The Catholic church were deeply involved; we have a nun giving evidence at a case near here.


Hepa said:


> I don't think pensioners from other countries retiring in Spain is detrimental to the Spanish economy, to the contrary, by spending our pensions/savings here we are contributing to the economy and indirectly creating work. We have to eat, drink, fuel the car, we travel, relatives and friends visit us, we pay local taxes, our properties need servicing, all this has to be paid for, and is funded by our pensions from our place of origin or from the earnings of those who visit us.
> The counties of origin are the losers the spending power of the pensioners has gone elsewhere.


Absolutely agree. But the Spanish property developers got a bit carried away and built a lot more properties than we need ... You might be fine on El Hierro, but when you see the vast empty half-built complexes straggled across the hillsides on the CDS you would understand what Mary is on about.


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

Sometimes it is easy to get bogged down in detail and forget the simple basics. I think the little comment that fits this perfectly is ' it's difficult to remember that you are in the swamp to drain it when you are up to your a#%se in alligators.
In simplistic terms we are here because people, businesses and governments borrowed irresponsibly. Conversely the banks lent irresponsibly. Governments wanted to 'court' the populace and kept any form of tax as low as possible (actually lower than possible) while increasing spending, again to court the people. Often this spending was I'll advised, misdirected and ineffective. 
On top of this we have the corruption issue in which everybody blames the Government. The problem is, especially in the Med countries, it is endemic, how many of know somebody working on the 'black', my guess is everybody.
Now couple all of the above with financial speculators who's sole aim is to make a profit from the currency Market by buying cheap. The Market is manipulated by these people.
The markets are tumbling, on average -2.3% just today. People are talking about the problems in Italy and Spain but this afternoon the markets were fighting shy of Belgium and France due to the levels of debt.
I know I must sound like a boring record but simply trying to look at Spain in isolation is no longer possible. The situation is Global. Financial positions are now global and unfortunately the only solution must be a global one.
As for Spanish property developers while it is true we must also remember that much of the building was done using Eastern Block 'suspect' money, again another form of corruption. There can be no doubt that some banks were aware of this as were the local authorities.
Spain is in a way lucky, it will eventually recover because it has something everybody wants, good weather, beaches, sun and scenery. However the news that yet another UK travel agency has hit the wall with 12500 abroad and needing to be bailed out is not going to help.
Personsally I really do expect the election in November to be in real troubled times, probably in the midst of the second dip! 
Probably one solution would be to suspend trading globally for a few days to let calm be restored. If it worked locally for Japan why not globally.....no doubt this is to simplistic and would never get universal agreement anyway!


----------



## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> I think that's a bit simplistic. An individual who borrows money to blow on luxuries is different from one who borrows to invest in her or or family's future. It's not much different with governments. What is important is that buying and selling loans shouldn't become more profitable than investing in employment-generating activities, which is precisely what has happened. Until this issue is addressed, we are all going down the plughole.
> 
> Very true, but we still have the right to criticise! The Catholic church were deeply involved; we have a nun giving evidence at a case near here.
> 
> ...


The simplistic will often work better, it is rarely used though. 

My properties here I paid cash, no need to borrow if you work hard, earn the money first and then buy. Or borrow sensibly whilst you work and pay off the loan quickly

So it is the property developers in the Costas that are at fault, they obviously researched the markets well, I think not. I smell back handers, corruption, brown envelopes.

Indeed we are fine here on the Meridian Isle, that is why we live here.
We used that restaurant last week, gets very hot near the windows.

H


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hepa said:


> The simplistic will often work better, it is rarely used though.
> 
> My properties here I paid cash, no need to borrow if you work hard, earn the money first and then buy. Or borrow sensibly whilst you work and pay off the loan quickly
> 
> ...


Yes, the Costas are the problem. Loads of half-finished skeletal structuires ruining the landscape. You have to see it to believe it.


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

In San Juan de los Tesros in Almeria they started a new urbanisation at the beginning of these troubles, huge infrastructure, roads, roundabouts etc. The point is they have completed and finished the first apartment blocks......can't sell them though! At the other end of the town is another half empty urbanisation completed a few years before. Either some developers and banks are very stupid or they know something I cannot even guess at.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hepa said:


> If people or governments didn't borrow or only borrowed what they can or could pay back, then you would have a sound economy.
> 
> Regarding Franco placing children in good Roman Catholic homes, who are the British to criticise, we sent ours to Australia and they ended up as unpaid workers and servants, until they became adults.
> 
> ...


Yes, you are right. We too did dreadful things to children. But that doesn't excuse or put a gloss on what was done here in Spain. Taking children from left-wing parents or sending orphans to work as skivvies ...both equally wrong.
I'm sorry to say that we contribute very little to the Spanish economy. We pay a hefty rent for our villa to an Austrian sex-industry entrepreneur. He does pay all his taxes, though. We did have a Spanish gardener but sacked him for extreme sloth and now employ an industrious German. We patronise local shops and services and use Mercadona whenever possible as they put all employees on permanent contracts and pay well but we go to Gibraltar once every three months or so to stock up on Quorn (OH is vegetarian) and other things, using our Tesco credit card to pay in £. We also fill up our LR with not-so-cheap diesel.
We get more from Spain than we put in. Our situation is not unique. Many Brits rent from non-Spaniards and patronise British-owned bars and shops. Many properties were bought from British, German or Scandinavian developers using non-Spanish agents and lawyers. I read recently that in places such as Benalmadena the average income of resident Brits is quite low so their spending power won't be great. It's the same in many parts of the CDS and perhaps more so in the cheaper areas of the Costa Blanca or Costa Brava.
We use the infrastructure and amenities provided by Spanish taxpayers but many Brits and others don't bother to sign on the padron and don't pay tax in Spain. My income is taxed outside of Spain as is OH's although she is considering changing this.
It's indisputable that in smaller towns and rural areas the immigrant spend boosts flagging economies. But I think that if you consider the wider picture and all the relevant factors involved in the construction boom which attracted so many immigrants you may find that the benefit to the Spanish economy, if there is any, could be insignificant.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Happyexpat said:


> In San Juan de los Tesros in Almeria they started a new urbanisation at the beginning of these troubles, huge infrastructure, roads, roundabouts etc. The point is they have completed and finished the first apartment blocks......can't sell them though! At the other end of the town is another half empty urbanisation completed a few years before. Either some developers and banks are very stupid or they know something I cannot even guess at.


I read a year ago that there are 1.5 million FINISHED properties in Spain on the market.
Soon the first Spanish words learnt by immigrants won't be 'cerveza' and 'vino' but 'se vende' and 'se aquila'.
(In the Czech Republic the first phrase you learn would be 'Temporarily out of order'. )
It seems the real problem now isn't so much surplus properties as land awaiting development. Banks and other developers hold enormous amounts of land zoned for construction which will never take place.
Ain't hindsight a wondeful thing??


----------



## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, you are right. We too did dreadful things to children. But that doesn't excuse or put a gloss on what was done here in Spain. Taking children from left-wing parents or sending orphans to work as skivvies ...both equally wrong.
> I'm sorry to say that we contribute very little to the Spanish economy. We pay a hefty rent for our villa to an Austrian sex-industry entrepreneur. He does pay all his taxes, though. We did have a Spanish gardener but sacked him for extreme sloth and now employ an industrious German. We patronise local shops and services and use Mercadona whenever possible as they put all employees on permanent contracts and pay well but we go to Gibraltar once every three months or so to stock up on Quorn (OH is vegetarian) and other things, using our Tesco credit card to pay in £. We also fill up our LR with not-so-cheap diesel.
> We get more from Spain than we put in. Our situation is not unique. Many Brits rent from non-Spaniards and patronise British-owned bars and shops. Many properties were bought from British, German or Scandinavian developers using non-Spanish agents and lawyers. I read recently that in places such as Benalmadena the average income of resident Brits is quite low so their spending power won't be great.
> It's the same in many parts of the CDS and perhaps more so in the cheaper areas of the Costa Blanca or Costa Brava.
> ...


Your world is very different to ours

Hepa


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hepa said:


> Your world is very different to ours
> 
> Hepa



But probably more typical of many immigrants, although we live in a small village with few Brits.


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

*Is it that different?*

We live in a small Spanish village where we own our Finca, we are on the padron, have residencia, pay our Suma, plus car and very expensive bike tax. We use our local bar, we usually use Spanish restaurants rather than the 'Brit' ones, we support our local Fiestas and our little local shop. We do our main shopping in Mercadonna, Consume and yes Lidle because its cheap.

We buy Spanish wine, Spanish food and Spanish products. We buy fuel for our car and bike and **** for my wife (I smoke electronic ones) so we pay IVA and fuel tax.

As mrprg9 said we also visit Gib now and again to get a few bits from the supermarket, and computer bits I need. Though that place is getting so expensive now its hardly worth it!

I think (hope) we are fairly typical and contribute quite a bit to the Spanish economy.



Hepa said:


> Your world is very different to ours
> 
> Hepa


----------



## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

What is Suma?


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

*Eh*

Local Council Tax, much better value than the UK I have to say! We even get our bin emptied daily, sometimes twice a day in the summer, almost makes moving from the UK a must by itself!

This is from Wikipedia
_"Suma Gestión Tributaria (Suma) is a 100% public provincial agency set up by the Provincial Council of Alicante (Spain) in 1990. It specializes in tax administration: assessment, billing, collection and enforcement. Suma collects the taxes on behalf of each city council with own resources."_

Conversely the Communidad at my mother in laws apartment is a complete rip off!



Hepa said:


> What is Suma?


----------



## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I see, we do not have a SUMA, but still pay to the council tax.

We have a communidad for an apartment we own, there are eight apartments with six owners, we the owners decide annually the amount we will need to pay, based on the previous years expenses for the communal parts of the apartment blocks. It is not expensive, in addition we pay council tax for our individual apartment.

Thanks for that,

Hepa


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Happyexpat said:


> We live in a small Spanish village where we own our Finca, we are on the padron, have residencia, pay our Suma, plus car and very expensive bike tax. We use our local bar, we usually use Spanish restaurants rather than the 'Brit' ones, we support our local Fiestas and our little local shop. We do our main shopping in Mercadonna, Consume and yes Lidle because its cheap.
> 
> We buy Spanish wine, Spanish food and Spanish products. We buy fuel for our car and bike and **** for my wife (I smoke electronic ones) so we pay IVA and fuel tax.
> 
> ...


I forgot...we pay car tax and I drink only Spanish wine(apart from cheap gin from Morrisons Gib) but I've become quite abstemious in my old age so the amount I drink won't float the economy. We eat out fairly regularly in either our local venta for a cheap 8 euro menu del dia or in a posher Spanish place for weekends. Most of our food shopping is done locally.
But it still amounts to 800 euros at most spent locally, for two people and a big dog. 
I've just come back from the CDS Hospital in Marbella, where I've had marvellous free treatment for a tiny tumour... on my finger The way I was looked after you'd have thought I had some terminal disease. This is my fourth medical appointment for this trivial ailment and I have to go to my local Centro de Salud for care until I go back to the Hospital next month.
The all-round quality of health care is fabulous. No hanging around, clean, pleasant environment, friendly staff..
Is it a requirement of the job that Spanish doctors have to be so incredibly good-looking, I wonder????


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I forgot...we pay car tax and I drink only Spanish wine(apart from cheap gin from Morrisons Gib) but I've become quite abstemious in my old age so the amount I drink won't float the economy. We eat out fairly regularly in either our local venta for a cheap 8 euro menu del dia or in a posher Spanish place for weekends. Most of our food shopping is done locally.
> But it still amounts to 800 euros at most spent locally, for two people and a big dog.
> I've just come back from the CDS Hospital in Marbella, where I've had marvellous free treatment for a tiny tumour... on my finger The way I was looked after you'd have thought I had some terminal disease. This is my fourth medical appointment for this trivial ailment and I have to go to my local Centro de Salud for care until I go back to the Hospital next month.
> The all-round quality of health care is fabulous. No hanging around, clean, pleasant environment, friendly staff..
> Is it a requirement of the job that Spanish doctors have to be so incredibly good-looking, I wonder????


Every little helps - if there are half a million of us it's a considerable contribution. 

My doctor is a little over the hill but my dentist is a complete dish. Shame he only ever sees the bits I wouldn't let anybody else see ...


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Sonrisa said:


> I see, but don't left parties just love to cry wolf and scare liberal voters into thinking that PP are a bunch of tight fascist that disaprove of all the social reforms that Spain has witnessed in recent years.


Well aren't they? They are after all the descendants of the Spanish N*zi party, just like the BNP is in UK although, fortunately, the latter have very little clout - YET!


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Every little helps - if there are half a million of us it's a considerable contribution.
> 
> My doctor is a little over the hill but my dentist is a complete dish. Shame he only ever sees the bits I wouldn't let anybody else see ...


None of my bits are fit for public viewing, alas.....
That's why we fork out for a house with a private pool.....
I found it rather amusing that I was required to remove all my clothing, wear surgical scrub-type garments and cover my head and feet for a tiny op on my index finger.....


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

*Communidad*

I wish we were that lucky, my mother in law has a great apartment in El Campello, second line from the beach on two floors, the second floor being a roof garden and storage. Having said that no community pool, no gardens and no private community areas. Oh I almost forgot no space in the underground car park either as they are all owned by a Spanish businessman, something to do with the management Co who is prepared to sell you one for circa 15k.

Massive community charge almost double apartments a mile down the road with pool*S*, gardens, community areas and parking spaces (albeit not underground). Oh and these apartments are on the first line from the beach in their own secure complex!

They have to hold an AGM every year and almost all the other apartments are owned by people from Madrid who don't bother attending. I have gone along to moan, b^tch and gripe about the charges but to no avail. They are set by the management Co and that appears to be that.

They say its all about location and as the apartment is in the centre of Campello directly above the main Mercadonna the charges are 'realistic'. I must look that word up because it surely cannot mean what I think it does.

If we had known then when we brought the apartment what we know now.......

Hey have we drifted off topic here.....sorry everybody!



Hepa said:


> I see, we do not have a SUMA, but still pay to the council tax.
> 
> We have a communidad for an apartment we own, there are eight apartments with six owners, we the owners decide annually the amount we will need to pay, based on the previous years expenses for the communal parts of the apartment blocks. It is not expensive, in addition we pay council tax for our individual apartment.
> 
> ...


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

When I had my heart op I really wouldn't describe my Doctor as a dish....well I wouldn't would I! My wife however did make some sort of comments to that effect.
However when it came to the scrub down, three times with three different types of, I assume, antibacterial stuff it had to be done by the nurse and it was all over...... and I mean all over
Now she was a dish but unfortunately I had other things on my mind......such is life!


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

:focus:

The PP is keeping its detailed recovery plans close to its chest, but it will involve 


Deep cuts in public spending (they are bracing themselves for a year of street protests)
Continuing the reforms to the labour market instigated by ZP - introduction of flexible contracts and reduced IVA for small businesses
Lowering the costs of buying a house
Reducing IVA for public transport, hotels and restaurants
Privatisation of public services to reduce costs

They have said they don't want to cut spending on pensions, health and education but can't rule it out.

Rajoy guarda celosamente sus armas electorales | Política | EL PAÍS


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> :focus:
> 
> The PP is keeping its detailed recovery plans close to its chest, but it will involve
> 
> ...


Much of that is sensible and inevitable. People have to be got into the labour market somehow. The temporada/permanente contract system has created two classes and obstructs small business growth. The scale of redundancy payment is unsustainable for many if not most small businesses who are trapped between the devil and the deep...can't afford to make people redundant, can't afford to keep them on.
Privatisation of public services is fine as long as contracts are carefully structured and service level agreements set at a high standard. None of that Thatcherite 'lowest competitive tender' nonsense which wrought havoc in the UK public services. There is every reason to believe that in the provision of some services -rubbish collecting/disposal for example - private business will do the job more efficiently than local authorities. 
I think an over-riding priority is for the political class to stop peddling the myth that they-or anyone - have the key to solving all our problems, problems that are self-created and self-perpetuating. We have to accept that there will never be a paradise on earth where poverty, ignorance, want and oppression will all disappear.
Inequalities, violence, natural disasters and other such evils are wired into the human condition and have been part of 'normal' life since before we emerged from caves.
We will wait in vain for a solution to end all this. Small steps to achieve that which is achievable is the most we can hope for. Followers of secular religions such as neo-conservatism or socialism are doomed to disappointment.
As a wise person said, 'It is better to construct a temporary shelter, however impermanent, against the elements, than to remain outside and rage against the storm'.
I think it was Shakespeare...which if so goes to show how little has changed and how little will change.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Quote: "provision of some services -rubbish collecting/disposal for example - private business will do the job more efficiently than local authorities. "

Sorry, but have to disagree. As soon as you put a public service that works quite well at a reasonable cost into private hands, the profit motive takes over as it has in UK. Refuse collection collection fortnightly here instead of daily = huge increase in pests, smells and filth.

MT set the ball rolling by saying that LAs should not run bus services, operate airports, provide refuse collection, etc, etc. with the consequence that the principle of using the more profitable to subsidise the loss makers went out of the window resulting in poorer bus services (if any) in country areas, all the civic services such as refuse collection, street cleaning, street lighting becoming worse or non-existent. But did the cost of the local authority services go down? Did they h*ll? they went UP!

Of course the PP are the dyed-in-the-wool conservatives/N*zis with just another name same as the BNP. Wherever they rule, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, for them it is a Me Me Me society and s*d the rest of you. Healthcare? - buy your own. Public transport? - get a car or a bike. Education? - go private.

For all his faults, Zap is and was better!


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> Quote: "provision of some services -rubbish collecting/disposal for example - private business will do the job more efficiently than local authorities. "
> 
> Sorry, but have to disagree. As soon as you put a public service that works quite well at a reasonable cost into private hands, the profit motive takes over as it has in UK. Refuse collection collection fortnightly here instead of daily = huge increase in pests, smells and filth.
> 
> ...


This is the kind of thing that has caused me to turn my back on politics. No evidence presented for any of the assertions - just bias, prejudice and hyperbolic non-facts. Sorry baldilocks I'm not meaning to have a go at you - everyone's the same. You should hear some people go on about labour, unions and the winter of discontent.

I'm fed up with it all. I won't take part in such empty and meaningless discussion.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Quote: "provision of some services -rubbish collecting/disposal for example - private business will do the job more efficiently than local authorities. "
> 
> Sorry, but have to disagree. As soon as you put a public service that works quite well at a reasonable cost into private hands, the profit motive takes over as it has in UK. Refuse collection collection fortnightly here instead of daily = huge increase in pests, smells and filth.
> 
> ...


Yes, I agree. PSOE will be -slightly - better. Not much room for manoeuvre for either, though.
But I cannot agree with you about LA services. I have had considerable experience when a Councillor in a London Borough and also in a semi-rural district and it is quite wrong to automatically assume that a LA will provide a better service. The quality of a service, whether publicly or privately provided, depends on quality of staff but most of all on quality of management. An element of competitionand accountability helps too. I have also been a Director of my OH's SME and have seen things from both sides. It is the profits from business that help provide revenue to fund local government services, after all. These services cost money and whilst it's right that there should be an element of cross-subsidy there are some services that simply are becoming unaffordable. At the end of the day, in a democracy it's up to the voters to decide what services they want. As I said before, we have to learn that we can't have everything we want handed on a plate. Sad but true. We've lived for too long with the absurd notion that someone else will pick up the bill.
There is nothing wrong with making a profit. It's what you do with it that counts. As Director of a Housing Association providing social housing, I was assiduous in maximising our profitability as all our profits went into expanding our social housing provision and associated care services for the elderly, youth etc. If we had not made a legitimate, socially-responsible profit we would have gone bust and helped no-one. 
Profits from business when fairly taxed fund the wages of teachers, policemen, hospital staff and so on as well as the cost of the services they provide. If you think society would somehow be fairer in a profit-free society, I'm afraid you're wrong. Before 1939 Czechoslovakia was an advanced, industrialised and socially progressive nation. Nazi occupation and forty years of socialism put the country into the dark ages of unimaginable environmental degradation and abysmal social services, not to mention a quality of life decades behind that of the social democracies. Nearly if not all societies where the profit motive is officially absent have been obliged to introduce an element of for-profit enterprise, Cuba being a notable example.
The reason that so many public services are poorly run in the UK is that Conservative councils hasve not set high-quality service level agreements. That is the only reason. We forget how dreadful LA run public services often were.
As Director of a HA I and my colleagues took great care to ensure that our SLA s were fair, comprehensive, paid heed to equality legislation and set the highest standards. Companies that failed to meet them were axed.
We had to terminate a contract only once. It served as an example.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Well aren't they? They are after all the descendants of the Spanish N*zi party, just like the BNP is in UK although, fortunately, the latter have very little clout - YET!


The BNP are odious. Period. But most BNP voters are not 'Nazis'. The vast majority are erstwhile Labour voters, disenchanted by what they see as the Labour Party's excessive preoccupation with topics that have little to do with their lives, such as equality issues. They are also unhappy at what they perceive as an unacceptably high level of immigration.
That does not make them Nazis or even racist bigots, as Gordon Brown learnt from his unfortunate encounter with the now famous Mrs Duffy.
The BNP may as yet have little clout but they are still of nuisance value in far too many areas. I have taken part in collaboration with my TU in anti-BNP work in London boroughs where they have a presence and we were pleased to see Margaret Hodge defeat Griffiths in the election last year in Dagenham, a BNP stronghold up to then. We did a lot of pre-election work there.
What is more worrying is the rise of the respectable right. In many European countries far-right Parties have considerable political clout and even sit in Governments....Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Austria, Finland, France...Marine Le Pen could end up in the run-off against Sarkozy...
You cannot write off everyone who votes BNP or for these Parties as Nazis or Fascists. The huge majority are people who are scared and unhappy with the changes that have been brought about without their consent or consultation even and who fear for their jobs and their children's futures.
It is the task of moderate Parties of right and left to pay heed to these concerns and to work towards integrating monorities into the national culture, whether in Spain, the UK, France ...Hard to do in times of mass unemployment, though.
Trades Unions are doing a lot of work in this field. But I seem to remember from a previous post that you are no friend of Trades Unions.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> The BNP are odious. Period. But most BNP voters are not 'Nazis'. The vast majority are erstwhile Labour voters, disenchanted by what they see as the Labour Party's excessive preoccupation with topics that have little to do with their lives, such as equality issues. They are also unhappy at what they perceive as an unacceptably high level of immigration.
> That does not make them Nazis or even racist bigots, as Gordon Brown learnt from his unfortunate encounter with the now famous Mrs Duffy.
> The BNP may as yet have little clout but they are still of nuisance value in far too many areas. I have taken part in collaboration with my TU in anti-BNP work in London boroughs where they have a presence and we were pleased to see Margaret Hodge defeat Griffiths in the election last year in Dagenham, a BNP stronghold up to then. We did a lot of pre-election work there.
> What is more worrying is the rise of the respectable right. In many European countries far-right Parties have considerable political clout and even sit in Governments....Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Austria, Finland, France...Marine Le Pen could end up in the run-off against Sarkozy...
> ...


The BNP is the renamed British N*zi Party - it had to do a little "re-imaging". I used to work for a German who had been a PoW in UK and had a number friends who were N*zis and on one occasion had to take them (I was the only one with a car) to a court hearing in that connection.

As for my being anti-TU - I'm not provided they are properly run but, unfortunately, as with MPs and Councillors, many are very often in it for what they, personally, can get out of it. I have been a member of a number of TUs and the worst was TGWU where the local branch was 'elected' to represent 180 mainline bus drivers *and *15 minibus drivers. All negotiations were slanted towards the main bus drivers and against the minibus drivers such that on one occasion the shop stewards voted to give up the Saturday premium (10% additional wages for working on a Saturday) for an improvement in the main drivers' hourly rate of 8% - at the same time they gave up the minibus drivers' Saturday premium and got the minibus drivers an increment of just 2% - b*st*rds. Needless to say the Shop Stewards were on mainline rate.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

The PP have been in control of our Ayuntamiento for two months and have already privatised rubbish collection.

It might be coincidence, but when I went to dump the recyclables the other day the containers were all full to bursting.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> The BNP is the renamed British N*zi Party - it had to do a little "re-imaging". I used to work for a German who had been a PoW in UK and had a number friends who were N*zis and on one occasion had to take them (I was the only one with a car) to a court hearing in that connection.
> 
> As for my being anti-TU - I'm not provided they are properly run but, unfortunately, as with MPs and Councillors, many are very often in it for what they, personally, can get out of it. to say the Shop Stewards were on mainline rate.


BNP are fascists, Nazis whatever, true, but they are an amalgam of the old National Front, Mosley's BUF and Tyndall's BNP. 
Most TUs are properly run. They have to be as they are by law subject to proper accounting, auditing, election procedures etc. and members vote for their leaders.
In all my experience I have NEVER come across a Councillor or Trades Union elected official at any level who was in it 'for what they personally can get out of it'.
That's an easy slur to make and I'd like to see proof.
I lost money and gave up countless hours, probably years, as a local politician and as a Trades Unionist and I'm in no way unique in that respect. I put aside any thoughts of advancing beyond school head in my 'career' and family and personal life came second to political work, sad to say. 
It's easy to cast aspersions on public-spirited men and women but rather scurrilous, imo. Trades Union General Secretaries are running what are businesses with hundreds of thousands of members, provide services from health care to house insurance and provide legal assistance as well as the core business of improving members' pay and conditions. Most earn around the £100k level with additional package benefits....scarcely megabucks in this day and age.
It amuses me when rags like The Mail publicise an expensive meal enjoyed by what they like to term 'Union barons'. If members are sufficiently incensed by their leaders' lavish use of expenses they have redress. They can complain, stand for election, vote for an alternative candidate.
When the boss of RBS (80% plus publicly owned) entertains clients at The Ivy or Whites there's not a peep from said rag. When my son worked for RBS he and his co-workers regularly enjoyed- free of charge- boxes at Wembley for important sporting events and free golf at top ranges in Scotland. That's a misuse of corporate funds, surely?
It's so easy to knock MPs, Councillors, Trades Union Leaders...in fact anyone of that ilk is an easy target for the uninformed with an axe to grind. That list should include Company Directors too as a lot of drivel is commonly spouted about their supposed perks.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> The PP have been in control of our Ayuntamiento for two months and have already privatised rubbish collection.
> 
> It might be coincidence, but when I went to dump the recyclables the other day the containers were all full to bursting.


Ours are run by the Ayto. They too are full to bursting. 
It all depends on management and that is undeniable.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> he
> 
> As for my being anti-TU - I'm not provided they are properly run but, unfortunately, as with MPs and Councillors, many are very often in it for what they, personally, can get out of it. .


I've been discussing this with OH and I wonder just what you mean by that comment.
Are you implying that these people are on the fiddle, i.e. interested in illicit financial gain?
Or do you mean that they enjoy the 'kudos' of their position? (A hard one to get my head round, that)
Trades Union officials are paid to help further the industrial disputes or personal grievance cases they handle: it's their job. 
So if Boggs WC Factory goes on strike (after a proper ballot conducted by the Electoral Law Reform Society of course) why should the negotiator from the WC Makers Union lose pay? He's doing his job, protectiong the interests of those who agreed freely to join the Union he works for.
You say the Shop Stewards in the case you cite wete 'elected' -why the '', by the way, either they were elected or they weren't. So if the workers they represented were dissatisfied I presume they 'de-elected' them?
Should the owner of Boggs WC Factory lose money for provoking the strike?
Jimenato is right. Easy to make assertions.
(Although I do it myself)


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Ours are run by the Ayto. They too are full to bursting.
> It all depends on management and that is undeniable.


But they never were before!

I think they've cut down on the number of collections to save money. We don't get a Sunday basura collection any more either. It's false economy because now they have to pay street cleaners to pick up all the rubbish from bags ripped open by animals, because they wouldn't fit into the bin.

The private company does seem to be employing the same people as the Ayto did, though I wonder if they have had their wages cut.


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

As usual it is a small minority of Trade Union Officials who give the majority a bad name. It is also the more militant unions which give the rest a bad name. In my experience the vast majority of unions are well run by responsible caring people.
Unfortunately the business with the BNP is case in point. In normal times they would not stand a chance of any sort of political clout. In these times anything is possible. As I have said before it is the militant fringe parties which find it easier to get people into the polling booths and that can cause havoc!


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

In case anyone is still interested in discussing Spanish politics, the extreme right equivalent of the BNP here are this lot:

Falange Española de la JONS

Plus a couple of splinter groups. They pick up the odd seat at municipal elections but have no representatives in the national government.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> But they never were before!
> 
> I think they've cut down on the number of collections to save money. We don't get a Sunday basura collection any more either. It's false economy because now they have to pay street cleaners to pick up all the rubbish from bags ripped open by animals, because they wouldn't fit into the bin.
> 
> The private company does seem to be employing the same people as the Ayto did, though I wonder if they have had their wages cut.


We never did get a Sunday collection....
Cutting wages and conditions should NEVER be a part of the privatisation process. It may be that the job can be done more efficiently with fewer people as can be the case in private or publicly delivered services.
But it all depends on how the process is managed.
I was interested to read that in sectors where collective bargaining is the norm, the cost to the employer per employee is less than where there is no such collective bargaining structures.
While neither you nor I will be surprised to learn this, it should be taken on board by those who see Trades Unions as industrial wreckers and saboteurs.
Sensible employers work _*with*_ their employees for mutual benefit.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Happyexpat said:


> As usual it is a small minority of Trade Union Officials who give the majority a bad name. It is also the more militant unions which give the rest a bad name. In my experience the vast majority of unions are well run by responsible caring people.
> Unfortunately the business with the BNP is case in point. In normal times they would not stand a chance of any sort of political clout. In these times anything is possible. As I have said before it is the militant fringe parties which find it easier to get people into the polling booths and that can cause havoc!


Why is it always wrong to be 'militant', though?
It reminds me of what was allegedly said by Rebecca West: when asked what a feminist was she replied that she didn't know, only that she was accused of being one when she did anything which differentiated her from a doormat.
Same with unions. It's not always possible to be cuddly and soft when tackling an intransigent, unreasonable employer.
Playing hardball is one of a variety of approaches I have adopted when dealing with casework. Horses for courses, as they say.
There are times when militancy aka sticking upfor your rights with the threat of industrial actionto back you up is the only and right way to go.


----------



## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

*There is militant and Militant*

There is nothing wrong with being militant if you are sticking up for members with an unreasonable or unfair employer who maybe is refusing to negotiate in a meaningful way.
There is something wrong with being a Militant union which prefers 'action rather than words' and is prepared to walk away from difficult negotiations at the drop of a hat. Thankfully these are few and far between but still manage to attract bad publicity for the entire movement.
One thing I know for sure is that with no teeth there is no bite as in the Police Federation.



mrypg9 said:


> Why is it always wrong to be 'militant', though?
> It reminds me of what was allegedly said by Rebecca West: when asked what a feminist was she replied that she didn't know, only that she was accused of being one when she did anything which differentiated her from a doormat.
> Same with unions. It's not always possible to be cuddly and soft when tackling an intransigent, unreasonable employer.
> Playing hardball is one of a variety of approaches I have adopted when dealing with casework. Horses for courses, as they say.
> There are times when militancy aka sticking upfor your rights with the threat of industrial actionto back you up is the only and right way to go.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Happyexpat said:


> There is nothing wrong with being militant if you are sticking up for members with an unreasonable or unfair employer who maybe is refusing to negotiate in a meaningful way.
> There is something wrong with being a Militant union which prefers 'action rather than words' and is prepared to walk away from difficult negotiations at the drop of a hat. Thankfully these are few and far between but still manage to attract bad publicity for the entire movement.
> One thing I know for sure is that with no teeth there is no bite as in the Police Federation.


Can't disagree with any of that.
Now off to spend my dwindling-value £ on a posh dinner before it's only good for a pint of lager and a packet of crisps...


----------

