# Starting an IT business in Egypt



## kasra

I have been in the IT business (hosting industry) for 2-3 years now and my business partner currently lives in Cairo and we have been talking back and forth about opening an office in Egypt. We initially wanted to target the arabic market however with out an office and a public image it will be very difficult.


Labor is a lot cheaper than USA and also you can rent a very nice office in a very populated area for a low amount compared to USA. We plan to hire 8-9 employees to begin with and probably add more as we go.

I have been researching a lot in regards to opening a business, tax laws, employment laws, etc... pretty much clearing up many questions and uncertainties. From what I have researched Egypt is very open to US citizens in terms of investment and a set of laws that provide benefits and exemptions from certain regulations.

Pretty much I am looking for some insider advice/info, specific things to watch out for. Not that I don't trust my business partner but I want to get a different point of view on how things work and how the business can be effected by culture, religion, etc..

Also I should mention I come from a middle eastern (Spent 10 years of my life) family so I would say I am familiar with the culture and how majority of things work. 


All comments and suggestions are welcomed!


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## MaidenScotland

Hello and welcome... 

Have a good read through the forum lots of information available. 

I would read the American embassy website about starting up a business here, as only the other day they were basically saying hide the fact you are American to its citizens who are living here. 

Maiden


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## Whitedesert

Not in the IT hosting business but it is a service we buy, and buy in a market extremely keen to get our business and where there are many suppliers. If you up to an already seriously competitive market, well, I guess the town is big enough for one more!


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## canuck2010

Find a good Egyptian lawyer you can trust.


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## kasra

canuck2010 said:


> Find a good Egyptian lawyer you can trust.


Can this be done with out going there? Some one I can speak to online?


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## MaidenScotland

kasra said:


> Can this be done with out going there? Some one I can speak to online?




ohh boy...


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## kasra

MaidenScotland said:


> ohh boy...


heh.. I know i am very new to this and thats why I won't go any further until I am sure of everything.

Well the name of an Egyptian law firm would help also, some one here that has had experience with them and can be trusted. I wouldn't mind calling the firm.


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## MaidenScotland

kasra said:


> heh.. I know i am very new to this and thats why I won't go any further until I am sure of everything.
> 
> Well the name of an Egyptian law firm would help also, some one here that has had experience with them and can be trusted. I wouldn't mind calling the firm.




Check your embassy website for English speaking lawyers. 

Personally I would not advise you to do anything from your homeland, you must be here.. do not let anyone be your agent.. 


The very fact you have said a law firm that can be trusted says it all... who the heck can you trust here,


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## kasra

MaidenScotland said:


> Check your embassy website for English speaking lawyers.
> 
> Personally I would not advise you to do anything from your homeland, you must be here.. do not let anyone be your agent..
> 
> 
> The very fact you have said a law firm that can be trusted says it all... who the heck can you trust here,


Well my business partner is telling me the same thing, that it is better if I come here and do everything with him. However, I feel like that there are things I haven't thought of.. things that can later on screw me over.

Anyways thanks for the advice everyone, I'll look around the forum for more info.


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## MaidenScotland

kasra said:


> Well my business partner is telling me the same thing, that it is better if I come here and do everything with him. However, I feel like that there are things I haven't thought of.. things that can later on screw me over.
> 
> Anyways thanks for the advice everyone, I'll look around the forum for more info.




It would be very difficult for us to tell you what to look out for.. I believe only one poster has started a business.. We don't know what sort of business, are you employing staff... that will be your biggest bugbear.... 

May I ask why you would want to start a business up in Egypt?


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## kasra

MaidenScotland said:


> It would be very difficult for us to tell you what to look out for.. I believe only one poster has started a business.. We don't know what sort of business, are you employing staff... that will be your biggest bugbear....
> 
> May I ask why you would want to start a business up in Egypt?



Yes, we will be employing staff. Around 8-9 to start off with, and also we have to rent an office.

The reason for doing all of this? $$$. Cheaper labor and I can get an office space in Egypt for $2k/mo while in USA it would be almost triple or quad that amount. Also at the same time selling the product/services will be easier when you have 6-7 sales people. 

My business partner currently lives there, well has been there all his life.. so majority of the stuff will be taken care by him. Finding a place, employees, etc..

I was told I have to deposit 100k LE , 25-30% of the capital so the bank can issue a certificate. Am i able to open a bank acc under my name only? Its just a bit risky depositing that kind of money into a foreign bank.


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## MaidenScotland

kasra said:


> Yes, we will be employing staff. Around 8-9 to start off with, and also we have to rent an office.
> 
> The reason for doing all of this? $$$. Cheaper labor and I can get an office space in Egypt for $2k/mo while in USA it would be almost triple or quad that amount. Also at the same time selling the product/services will be easier when you have 6-7 sales people.
> 
> My business partner currently lives there, well has been there all his life.. so majority of the stuff will be taken care by him. Finding a place, employees, etc..
> 
> I was told I have to deposit 100k LE , 25-30% of the capital so the bank can issue a certificate. Am i able to open a bank acc under my name only? Its just a bit risky depositing that kind of money into a foreign bank.




Of course you can open an account in your name only, there is lots you can do in your own name despite Egyptians telling you it has to be in their name.
How well do you know your business partner? 
How well do you know Egypt? 

Do you know the labour laws in Egypt? I would suggest you brush up on them, getting rid of an employee is a nightmare.. regardless of what they have or have not done.


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## kasra

MaidenScotland said:


> Of course you can open an account in your name only, there is lots you can do in your own name despite Egyptians telling you it has to be in their name.
> How well do you know your business partner?
> How well do you know Egypt?
> 
> Do you know the labour laws in Egypt? I would suggest you brush up on them, getting rid of an employee is a nightmare.. regardless of what they have or have not done.


I have been in business with him for 1 year, he is a hard worker. In terms of trusting him.. yes I do but only up to certain point. I always like double check and research everything on my own regardless, just so I can sleep at night.

He also did mention I can just get the bank account under my name, He hasn't said anything so far that makes no sense to my knowledge.

I have been writing down a list of questions and I will certainly add that to my list.


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## MaidenScotland

MaidenScotland said:


> Of course you can open an account in your name only, there is lots you can do in your own name despite Egyptians telling you it has to be in their name.
> How well do you know your business partner?
> How well do you know Egypt?
> 
> Do you know the labour laws in Egypt? I would suggest you brush up on them, getting rid of an employee is a nightmare.. regardless of what they have or have not done.




You can never ask too many questions .. just remember when you don't know the law of the land and of course the law can be bought then you are at a disadvantage,

You can trust me but don't trust him...you wil lhear that all the time


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## kasra

MaidenScotland said:


> You can never ask too many questions .. just remember when you don't know the law of the land and of course the law can be bought then you are at a disadvantage,
> 
> You can trust me but don't trust him...you wil lhear that all the time


Thats correct but risk is always going to be a factor regardless of where you are. 

The law can be bought anywhere, it all depends on who you have connections with and how much money you have. 


I am not really concerned with him, Just things that I will encounter. Like you mentioned labour laws..tax laws, ownership, etc..


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## MaidenScotland

this link is worth reading

Business | Embassy of the United States


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## MaidenScotland

just had a quick glance at the link and it gives everything you might need


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## kasra

MaidenScotland said:


> just had a quick glance at the link and it gives everything you might need


Thanks for all the advice/help.


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## expatagogo

kasra said:


> The reason for doing all of this? $$$. Cheaper labor and I can get an office space in Egypt for $2k/mo while in USA it would be almost triple or quad that amount. Also at the same time selling the product/services will be easier when you have 6-7 sales people.


We have talked a lot on this forum about the very mistaken idea that Egyptian labor is "cheap."

IT IS NOT CHEAP.

Actually, it is rather expensive when you consider the lack of productivity and the intense amount of supervision (not to mention blood, sweat, and tears) that goes into getting anything accomplished.

Do not believe, for one minute, there will be anything "easier" about it.


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## kasra

expatagogo said:


> We have talked a lot on this forum about the very mistaken idea that Egyptian labor is "cheap."
> 
> IT IS NOT CHEAP.
> 
> Actually, it is rather expensive when you consider the lack of productivity and the intense amount of supervision (not to mention blood, sweat, and tears) that goes into getting anything accomplished.
> 
> Do not believe, for one minute, there will be anything "easier" about it.


I have done my research in that part.

Its way cheaper to hire a developer/designer with the same experience in Egypt than USA.


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## Biffy

Yes on paper it may seem cheaper to hire an EGyptian web developer/designer.

But I think what Expatagogo is trying to say is that the work ethic of the average EGyptian - no matter how high his education / how good his credentials is basically not good!!
Since I have started working here I have realsied very quickly that unless you are standing over the top of them with a big stick then nothing gets done!
And since the revolution that situation has got worse.
Even if you think having them work on a comission basis would give them incentive - on the whole it just doesn't work.
Since Jan 25th they seem to think that theri new democracy should pay them for doing nothing!
And as also stated getting rid of someone who works for you is a nightmare.

If you are not here - you wouldnt be sure as to whether they are using your 'cheap' office and equipment for thier own business ventures rather than completing anything for you.

There is no way you can run a business - with the work ethic / productivity / comittment that you would expect being a westerner - remotely. YOU need to be here on the ground - or at least emply another 'westerner' with the same mentality / work ethic on the ground in Egypt. And let him / her wield the big stick!!!!!


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## MaidenScotland

Biffy said:


> Yes on paper it may seem cheaper to hire an EGyptian web developer/designer.
> 
> But I think what Expatagogo is trying to say is that the work ethic of the average EGyptian - no matter how high his education / how good his credentials is basically not good!!
> Since I have started working here I have realsied very quickly that unless you are standing over the top of them with a big stick then nothing gets done!
> And since the revolution that situation has got worse.
> Even if you think having them work on a comission basis would give them incentive - on the whole it just doesn't work.
> Since Jan 25th they seem to think that theri new democracy should pay them for doing nothing!
> And as also stated getting rid of someone who works for you is a nightmare.
> 
> If you are not here - you wouldnt be sure as to whether they are using your 'cheap' office and equipment for thier own business ventures rather than completing anything for you.
> 
> There is no way you can run a business - with the work ethic / productivity / comittment that you would expect being a westerner - remotely. YOU need to be here on the ground - or at least emply another 'westerner' with the same mentality / work ethic on the ground in Egypt. And let him / her wield the big stick!!!!!




and of course as a rich western company owner you are expected to pay for medicine, contribute to wedding, funerals, hospital fees... plus of course watch and say nothing when they turn up for work and then sit and have their breakfast... on your time.


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## MaidenScotland

p.s....

I am sitting waiting on an Egyptian who was supposed to be here at midday.. nothing unusual about that but I told her.. 12 o'clock British time do not come at Egyptian time as I have a lot on and I cannot hang around waiting for you, she phoned me at 11.30pm last night to check the time for the third time and yet here I am sitting waiting... as is the norm in the country of no haste.


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## Biffy

I really don't think it is a country of no haste - I have come to the opinion that they really don't care!!

But Everytime I see 'British time' I laugh!!! My Husband thought it was just me who said this - until we were waiting outsdie the British Embassy and he heard an British engineer say it when he was told by the lawyer who was with him that it wold be 10 minutes - he replied ' British 10 minutes or Egyptian 10 minutes'. 
Which in reality s anytime today if you are lucky!!

But it is true they are incapable of turning up anywhere on time - no matter how many times you tell - or how hard you make your point.


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## MaidenScotland

I am still waiting..


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## MaidenScotland

Just had the phone call and explanation...

I have been waiting in line for bread since 8.30am and just finished now.. I had no credit for my phone to phone you before now. Can I come now, if I get taxi instead of metro will you pay fare, it is a long way between where I am now and you ..

This is the sort of crap you are up against daily when you employ or help Egyptian


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## MaidenScotland

still waiting..Kasra are you sure you want to do business out here lol


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## MaidenScotland

another call... what number of the street. 

I just checked her facebook and she posted an hour ago via her mobile... despite having no credit


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## hurghadapat

MaidenScotland said:


> another call... what number of the street.
> 
> I just checked her facebook and she posted an hour ago via her mobile... despite having no credit


Not only bad time keeper a lier to boot....sound about the norm to me


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## MaidenScotland

and she is still not here.....


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## GM1

MaidenScotland said:


> I just checked her facebook and she posted an hour ago via her mobile... despite having no credit


It is possible that she has a bundle for internet and has already paid for that bundle before. So she can go on the internet but has no credit to make calls.


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## Biffy

Is she there yet??


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## MaidenScotland

she turned up at 2.13... 2hours and 13 minutes late which is an improvement on the last time, she was 24 hours late!!


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## kasra

Can you explain "And as also stated getting rid of someone who works for you is a nightmare."

I assume if you have a contract with them, it can be terminated at any time.

In regards to having some one watch over them, my partner will be there everyday.

If they keep coming late then they will get fired, not sure why its a hassle. If this is the case then every business in egypt is currently failing or on its way to fail. To be honest the same applies here, micro management is always necessary regardless of what county you are in.


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## MaidenScotland

kasra said:


> Can you explain "And as also stated getting rid of someone who works for you is a nightmare."
> 
> I assume if you have a contract with them, it can be terminated at any time.
> 
> In regards to having some one watch over them, my partner will be there everyday.
> 
> If they keep coming late then they will get fired, not sure why its a hassle. If this is the case then every business in egypt is currently failing or on its way to fail. To be honest the same applies here, micro management is always necessary regardless of what county you are in.




Sorry but I have just shown you what employing someone is like and I am here 24/7... 
I will say no more on the matter


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## kasra

MaidenScotland said:


> Sorry but I have just shown you what employing someone is like and I am here 24/7...
> I will say no more on the matter


Majority of the things you mentioned aren't new to me, I lived in Iran for 10 years. Therefore I have a good understanding of its culture and people.

You did mention that firing a worker is a nightmare but didn't explain why?

It seems that everyone has a negative perception in regards to many things, not necessarily a bad thing. Every scenario/issue has a way of dealing with.


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## MaidenScotland

The majority of employees will be your partners family and friends...


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## kasra

MaidenScotland said:


> The majority of employees will be your partners family and friends...


What makes you say that? 

The only person that I will know directly will be my business partner. No friends or family since this will be a conflict of interest and we have already discussed this.


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## MaidenScotland

kasra said:


> What makes you say that?
> 
> The only person that I will know directly will be my business partner. No friends or family since this will be a conflict of interest and we have already discussed this.


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## expatagogo

kasra said:


> Majority of the things you mentioned aren't new to me, I lived in Iran for 10 years. Therefore I have a good understanding of its culture and people.
> 
> You did mention that firing a worker is a nightmare but didn't explain why?
> 
> It seems that everyone has a negative perception in regards to many things, not necessarily a bad thing. Every scenario/issue has a way of dealing with.


For two reasons:

1.) Being fired from a job means security is lost, so their entire family - and, come to think of it, anyone who can say their name - will be fine with harassing you until you give them their job back or, at the very least, admit firing them was a mistake ON YOUR PART. They will fill your place of business, daily, and blow up your phone. Expect to meet dad, and probably mom.

2.) They will avail themselves of the court system to "take their rights," and you can expect to pay your attorney, their attorney, and court costs for the duration of the frivolous lawsuit because, of course, they will happily settle for some money. The money isn't the point. The point is they weren't wrong and by settling, you will prove that so their good name will be cleared forever and ever.

You can expect that, until you come to your senses and admit your mistake, they will run their mouths to anyone and everyone, vilifying you and your business.

"Vindictive" is an understatement.


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## kasra

expatagogo said:


> For two reasons:
> 
> 1.) Being fired from a job means security is lost, so their entire family - and, come to think of it, anyone who can say their name - will be fine with harassing you until you give them their job back or, at the very least, admit firing them was a mistake ON YOUR PART. They will fill your place of business, daily, and blow up your phone. Expect to meet dad, and probably mom.
> 
> 2.) They will avail themselves of the court system to "take their rights," and you can expect to pay your attorney, their attorney, and court costs for the duration of the frivolous lawsuit because, of course, they will happily settle for some money. The money isn't the point. The point is they weren't wrong and by settling, you will prove that so their good name will be cleared forever and ever.
> 
> You can expect that, until you come to your senses and admit your mistake, they will run their mouths to anyone and everyone, vilifying you and your business.
> 
> "Vindictive" is an understatement.



SO anybody that runs a business in Egypt encounters this, if so then why haven't they all failed? Just curious.


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## expatagogo

kasra said:


> What makes you say that?


Welcome in Egypt!


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## expatagogo

kasra said:


> SO anybody that runs a business in Egypt encounters this, if so then why haven't they all failed? Just curious.


I believe that question was answered in post #37.


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## Biffy

But it isn't just the above.

There aren't just the issues above.

Getting rid of someone in thier probation period is a bit easier.

But once you have passed this there are certain employment / remuneration rules that apply.

I work for a very large manufacturing company in EGypt - and even we run shy of firing anyone. Becuase you have to pay them their dues.
And also ebcause of the red tape.

The work ethic in EGypt prior to the revolution wasn't brilliant, but nmow after the revolution it is very poor - and unless as already mentioned you sit on top of them with a big stick then you areon a hiding to nothing!!

As for all teh discussions with your EGyptian partner - you must realise they will agree to anything and say anything to you to gain your support. WHich happens in reality is a diffeent thing altogether.
Not employing family / friends - of course it is going to happen regardless of what he says to you.

And as for the question ' if everything was this bad then the companies would be in a mess' - many are.
Again I work within a large manufacturing company - EGyptian - and honest to god you have to push and squeeze the people to get anything done properly. And unless you are on top of their head - they will take the shortest route to achieve what you want (whether it is the right way or not).

Sorry - from my esperience - don't even think about starting any kind of company here in EGypt UNLESS you are on the ground here in Egypt. No matter how much you think you trust your partner - he is EGyptian and as they say blood is thicker than water!!

I often say to my Husband and people I work with - surely given the economic circustances here in EGypt people want to work. The answer is yes they want to work (as in get paid) - but they don't want to _*work*_!

For all the Mubaraks regimes faults - there is one basic thing he understaood about his country - to make it work you need a big stick!!


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## MaidenScotland

8/9 sales staff =

well you will need to employ a tea boy, then maybe the tea boy has a young brother who needs a job as a runner so he will be employed to go and do the shopping for you staff and maybe clean the office.

All your staff will pray even if they have never prayed before because it is at least another 15 minutes per pray off their day.. they can usually do at least 3 prayers a day.. so that is 45 minutes a day productivity you pp each working day.. not a lot you can do about that but at least if you are around you can check that they are not going out to smoke after their prayer adding on at least another 10 minutes. I am not sure but I believe for that many staff you have to provide a separate room for praying plus of course mats. 

You will be expected to provide all medicines and they will bring in receipts for the medicine.. but hey even I can buy a receipt book.. 


Nightmare.. and believe me Egyptians who are not after your money will tell you don't trust anyone here least of all your partner.


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## Biffy

My husband (who is EGyptian by the way) - will tell you this.

Don't trust anybody.
And if you do - then suffer the consequences.

Every Egyptian who owns any kind of business will tell you the same. don't trust anyone; especially your relatives.

We have our own business - since before when we were in the UK - importing EGyptian items (particualrly Shisha) to the UK.
We made the mistake ONCE only - of having who we thought was a long time trusted friend (and who had been with my Husband when in EGypt on buying trips ) to buy and load a container for us.
We lost so much money!!
Why.
COuld he go to the suppliers we told him to who produced the quality we want - NO. He thought he could get a better deal.
So we got very crap poor quality items (for not so much less money) - he didn't stand over the peole when they packed it for shipment - so we had many broken / bent items that were unsaleable.
when they packed the container did they pack it properly - NO - agin many damaged unsaleable items.

We learnt the lesson - don't trust ANYBODY - you need to be there to puch the people to do a good job and CHECK everything!!


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## hurghadapat

Biffy said:


> My husband (who is EGyptian by the way) - will tell you this.
> 
> Don't trust anybody.
> And if you do - then suffer the consequences.
> 
> Every Egyptian who owns any kind of business will tell you the same. don't trust anyone; especially your relatives.
> 
> We have our own business - since before when we were in the UK - importing EGyptian items (particualrly Shisha) to the UK.
> We made the mistake ONCE only - of having who we thought was a long time trusted friend (and who had been with my Husband when in EGypt on buying trips ) to buy and load a container for us.
> We lost so much money!!
> Why.
> COuld he go to the suppliers we told him to who produced the quality we want - NO. He thought he could get a better deal.
> 
> 
> So we got very crap poor quality items (for not so much less money) - he didn't stand over the peole when they packed it for shipment - so we had many broken / bent items that were unsaleable.
> when they packed the container did they pack it properly - NO - agin many damaged unsaleable items.
> 
> We learnt the lesson - don't trust ANYBODY - you need to be there to puch the people to do a good job and CHECK everything!!


Well i am so pleased you have said that about trusting nobody...was going to mention it earlier then had second thoughts....but as you say even the Egyptians don't trust each other so what chance does a foreigner stand...


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## canuck2010

I agree with the 'don't trust anyone' advice. It never fails, as soon as you let something slip, they get you.
Of course, once you realize this, it becomes possible to put in fail safe systems. For example, everyone has a supervisor, and the supervisor has a supervisor ect...


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## aykalam

hurghadapat said:


> Well i am so pleased you have said that about trusting nobody...was going to mention it earlier then had second thoughts....but as you say even the Egyptians don't trust each other so what chance does a foreigner stand...


trust nobody, specially family...and close friends


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## MaidenScotland

I was just thinking about my fathers tale of when he was here during the Suez crisis.. 

on arrival he was told never to leave anything lying around as it would be stolen and on going to sleep put each boot under the leg of your bunk.. he did so only to find the laces gone in the morning .. lol


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## hurghadapat

MaidenScotland said:


> I was just thinking about my fathers tale of when he was here during the Suez crisis..
> 
> on arrival he was told never to leave anything lying around as it would be stolen and on going to sleep put each boot under the leg of your bunk.. he did so only to find the laces gone in the morning .. lol


As they say "where there is a will there is a way"


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## kasra

Well in terms of work ethics my business partner is very good at it.. So the fact that you are saying all Egyptians lack the motivation and work ethics is not true. To say that all Egyptians are lazy and lack motivation isn't fair, I have seen and worked with plenty of lazy people right here in the US that lack motivation and take advantage of everything.


In regards to medicine, yes we will have to pay for their medical insurance not the medicine it self. 

Having some one you mentioned as "tea boy" is normal, I am familiar with that. Not sure why you need some one to do shopping, they have legs they can do their own shopping. 

Also about praying, thats fine with me.. its part of the culture/religion.


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## MaidenScotland

kasra said:


> Well in terms of work ethics my business partner is very good at it.. So the fact that you are saying all Egyptians lack the motivation and work ethics is not true. To say that all Egyptians are lazy and lack motivation isn't fair, I have seen and worked with plenty of lazy people right here in the US that lack motivation and take advantage of everything.
> 
> 
> In regards to medicine, yes we will have to pay for their medical insurance not the medicine it self.
> 
> Having some one you mentioned as "tea boy" is normal, I am familiar with that. Not sure why you need some one to do shopping, they have legs they can do their own shopping.
> 
> Also about praying, thats fine with me.. its part of the culture/religion.[/QUOTE You asked on the forum
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You asked how things are here, we told you and you don't like the answers..
> We live here, we deal with the work ethic day in day out, no one is trying to impress us.
> 
> Someone to do the shopping, I was trying to point out how things go... of course you don't need a runner but that doesn't mean to say you wont have one in the office..
> 
> 
> Best of luck in your venture..


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## expatagogo

MaidenScotland said:


> Best of luck in your venture..


Starting with that "office space in Egypt for $2k/mo."

:eek2:


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## kasra

Well I will be researching this for another 2-3 months before I make any move.

Thanks for all the advice / suggestions.


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## kasra

Another questions,

Why did you guys move to Egypt if all these problems exist?


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## MaidenScotland

kasra said:


> Another questions,
> 
> Why did you guys move to Egypt if all these problems exist?




Others have told you.. they are married to Egyptians, me I work for a foreign embassy so I have a nice big fat package and a lot of back up... 

Plus of course maybe no one told us they exist.

It always makes me smile when we have questions from posters and when the answer is not to their liking we always get asked Why are you here. 

I happen to know that Deadguy has a lot on just now.. he is a young Egyptian male and I am 100% certain he would endorse what we have said and probably would add a lot to it... 


There is an old thread about my debit card being used fraudulently which I had reported to the police and basically the police didn't want to know, despite me telling the police who did it... I emailed an arbitration lawyer(UK) who I met here in Egypt and was telling him the saga when he reminded me of the case he was dealing with here for a huge international company when they realised the accountant has stolen the sum of 400,000 LE and the police did nothing about it as it was an Egyptian stealing from a foreigner... 

this is the sort of thing you are up against daily... 

quite simply if you are not here watching your money then you may as well wave it goodbye,



p.s why would we lie about these things?


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## DeadGuy

kasra said:


> SO anybody that runs a business in Egypt encounters this, if so then why haven't they all failed? Just curious.


What makes you think no one fails? Or that everyone's business is successful?

How people make money in here?

In your IT career:

1- No one uses original software, imagine how much money saved by just doing that, but also imagine how much time spent fixing system failures cause you're using [email protected] unstable systems.

2- No one gives their customers/clients what they actually pay for, they only give them a way to keep things "working", this way they never need to work too hard, and of course the client/customer will be a regular one cause they'll never have their problems fixed.

3- No one hires qualified staff, if you know how to set up a fresh operating system then you're an "engineer", if you know how to make a girl's picture look "pale" then you're a Photoshop expert, if you know how to put your computer into pieces, clean the dust on it, put it back together again, you're a hardware expert, AKA an engineer.

4- No one really pays any attention to what the customer/client's real problem is, if you got a hardware issue and your computer is not running at all for example, and ALL you care about is the data on it, your IT "engineer" will wonder why you're so mad when he gives you the computer back with a fresh installation after formatting everything on it 

5- No one pays tax! You as a foreigner will never get away with that though.....

That's all I could think of right now, of course you'll need to add what everyone else said already regarding hiring/firing staff, cause these are FACTS about Egypt, whether you, I, or anyone likes it or not.......

Good luck though :eyebrows:


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## kasra

1 - Doesn't mean everyone uses pirated licenses. We use legit licenses for all the softwares we use..and the same goes for lots of companies out there.

2 - Not true.

3 - It depends on how much money you are willing to spend.

4 - Again not true, but then again you can't make everyone happy. 

5 - I always have paid my taxes..and I am sure there are plenty. Now does this mean some get away with it? Of course..


These 5 things are irrelevant to where you start a business. No one said it was easy..but then again the point is to be opened minded about things and be as cautious as possible.


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## DeadGuy

kasra said:


> 1 - Doesn't mean everyone uses pirated licenses. We use legit licenses for all the softwares we use..
> 
> 2 - Not true.
> 
> 3 - It depends on how much money you are willing to spend.
> 
> 4 - Again not true, but then again you can't make everyone happy.
> 
> 5 - I always have paid my taxes..and I am sure there are plenty. Now does this mean some get away with it? Of course..
> 
> 
> These 5 things don't are irrelevant to where you start a business. No one said it was easy..but then again the point is to be opened minded about things and be as cautious as possible.


Not true in the US maybe, but it is a fact in here.

That's how most people make money in here, and that's what you'd need to compete.......

Your comment on the tax bit and "some" getting away with not paying tax put a smile on my face


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## kasra

DeadGuy said:


> Not true in the US maybe, but it is a fact in here.
> 
> That's how most people make money in here, and that's what you'd need to compete.......
> 
> Your comment on the tax bit and "some" getting away with not paying tax put a smile on my face


All of these apply to any country. 

Plenty of people get away with paying taxes in the US..They all pay some taxes but not what they are suppose to pay.

Anyways I have given this a 2-3 months period to let everything sink in.


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## DeadGuy

kasra said:


> All of these apply to any country.
> 
> Plenty of people get away with paying taxes in the US..They all pay some taxes but not what they are suppose to pay.
> 
> Anyways I have given this a 2-3 months period to let everything sink in.


Everyone wants to be successful and making loads of money, nothing wrong with that, but people can't do that saving money on say renting a place, then wasting it on stupid bureaucracy and/or lazy staff.......

But again! Good luck :eyebrows:


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## DeadGuy

MaidenScotland said:


> p.s....
> 
> I am sitting waiting on an Egyptian who was supposed to be here at midday.. nothing unusual about that but I told her.. 12 o'clock British time do not come at Egyptian time as I have a lot on and I cannot hang around waiting for you, she phoned me at 11.30pm last night to check the time for the third time and yet here I am sitting waiting... as is the norm in the country of no haste.


But 12 British means 13 Egypt time


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## DeadGuy

kasra said:


> All of these apply to any country.
> 
> Plenty of people get away with paying taxes in the US..They all pay some taxes but not what they are suppose to pay.
> 
> Anyways I have given this a 2-3 months period to let everything sink in.


Forgot to write what I wanted to say about trusting a local with your business, and money of course, it's just one word: *DON'T*


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## kasra

DeadGuy said:


> Forgot to write what I wanted to say about trusting a local with your business, and money of course, it's just one word: *DON'T*


Not going to have any one in charge of money.. money only goes out with my approval.


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## DeadGuy

kasra said:


> Not going to have any one in charge of money.. money only goes out with my approval.


It's not just a money issue in your case........

Most people start working for someone, "learn", get a list of customers, then start their own business, invite their ex boss's customers for their new place (That's the decent scenario, some people actually tell the customers that the business changed names!) and then they leave the ex boss empty handed........

If I could ask you a question, it would be why do you think people work for lower salaries in here?


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## kasra

DeadGuy said:


> It's not just a money issue in your case........
> 
> Most people start working for someone, "learn", get a list of customers, then start their own business, invite their ex boss's customers for their new place (That's the decent scenario, some people actually tell the customers that the business changed names!) and then they leave the ex boss empty handed........
> 
> If I could ask you a question, it would be why do you think people work for lower salaries in here?



Okay but this scenario can happen anywhere....

Who said anything about paying them low salaries? salaries are based on cost of living.

Same goes for USA, some states pay a lot more, while some don't pay as much.


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## DeadGuy

kasra said:


> Okay but this scenario can happen anywhere....
> 
> Who said anything about paying them low salaries? salaries are based on cost of living.
> 
> Same goes for USA, some states pay a lot more, while some don't pay as much.


It can happen everywhere, no one said it only happens in here, it just happens in here more often than you think.......

If you wanna hire professional, qualified staff with "average" work ethics, you'll need to pay them US salaries, if not more........

Besides........You'll probably end up hiring expats, simply cause you'd struggle to find Egyptians that would fit the profile........


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## Fiona08

Sorry to but in on this conversation, but the others are right. Do not trust anyone in Egypt. My husband is Egyptian and althought living in the UK currently, but his brother did the dirty on him and his other brother! It drives us crazy but you have to be as devious as they are! However, my husband is in IT in the UK and is looking to going back to Eghypt as jobs here are not good currently. Maybe, if you do set up in Cairo my husband could come and work for you! He is a great IT engineer and has his English CompTIA A+ and networking exams from the UK.

I wish you the best of luck, but the other members are right in what they say - think long and hard.


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## kasra

Fiona08 said:


> Sorry to but in on this conversation, but the others are right. Do not trust anyone in Egypt. My husband is Egyptian and althought living in the UK currently, but his brother did the dirty on him and his other brother! It drives us crazy but you have to be as devious as they are! However, my husband is in IT in the UK and is looking to going back to Eghypt as jobs here are not good currently. Maybe, if you do set up in Cairo my husband could come and work for you! He is a great IT engineer and has his English CompTIA A+ and networking exams from the UK.
> 
> I wish you the best of luck, but the other members are right in what they say - think long and hard.


Thanks for the heads up, honestly all these the stuff you guys mentioned aren't new to me. I lived in Iran in for 10 years and if you don't know what you are doing people will eat you alive. Just have to be careful and never trust anyone blindly.

I will be doing this for 6 months, if it doesn't work out or things don't go my way then I will pull out. You win some and lose some. Well you lose a lot more than you win..


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## MaidenScotland

kasra said:


> Thanks for the heads up, honestly all these the stuff you guys mentioned aren't new to me. I lived in Iran in for 10 years and if you don't know what you are doing people will eat you alive. Just have to be careful and never trust anyone blindly.
> 
> I will be doing this for 6 months, if it doesn't work out or things don't go my way then I will pull out. You win some and lose some. Well you lose a lot more than you win..





You are saying it's not new to you and yet your previous posts indicate that we are talking nonsense... 

A case of MMD? but in the business sense


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## kasra

MaidenScotland said:


> You are saying it's not new to you and yet your previous posts indicate that we are talking nonsense...
> 
> A case of MMD? but in the business sense



Well no many stuff were exaggerated to a point where you might as well say "stay way from Egypt completely at all costs"


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## MaidenScotland

kasra said:


> Well no many stuff were exaggerated to a point where you might as well say "stay way from Egypt completely at all costs"









We have tried our best to answer your questions as honestly as we can and now you say we are exaggerating.. so I will now tell you what you want to hear

Send all your money to Egypt, trust your partner 100% he will not rip you off, believe everything you will be told... this time next year you will be millionaire. 


I will close the thread now as it is not going anywhere, you ask the question then tell us we are wrong. So no more can be said on the subject. 


Maiden


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