# Undecided - please help!



## NorthSouth (Oct 6, 2012)

Dear Forum

I would be grateful for your help with one of the most difficult decisions my wife and I have ever faced, and that is weather or not we should stay in the UK, move back to South Africa, or move to Australia.

I am originally from South Africa and my wife is from Finland. For the past 10 years we have lived and worked in the UK, which apart from the weather has been a positive and rewarding experience. We both have good jobs and we earn very well. However, we are both time poor and neither of us have any family in the UK. This has not been a major issue until our children, now aged 4 and 2, came along. We felt we wanted a better lifestyle and be closer to family and so at the end of 2011 we decided that we would move back to South Africa at the end of 2012. We bought a house and I have a potential job lined up.

However, in the past six months both my wife and I have been getting cold feet. We are very scared of the crime in South Africa, and worried about the politics, education, and the future of our children. As a result we started thinking about moving to the Sunshine Coast in Australia, where my wife's sister, husband and two children lives. We will have a temporary visa in the next month, which will allow us to work anywhere in Queensland apart from Brisbane. Unfortunately, neither of us have jobs lined up in Australia and job prospects in the Sunshine Coast does not seem to be too good.

We are torn and are not sure what we should do. The best thing about the UK is financial security, but our lifestyle is poor. We will be close to loving family in South Africa, but we are scared of crime and the future for our children. We know that Australia is quite solid in most respects and we will also have family there, but we are worried about getting jobs. We know that nobody can make the decision for us but your views could help us in our decision making process.

We look forward to hearing from you. Thank you and best wishes...


----------



## 3lf (Oct 7, 2012)

NorthSouth said:


> Dear Forum
> 
> I would be grateful for your help with one of the most difficult decisions my wife and I have ever faced, and that is weather or not we should stay in the UK, move back to South Africa, or move to Australia.
> 
> ...


It depends why you want to go back. Good lifestyle, space, fantastic climate, people you know and understand in a vibrant and energetic society certainly makes you want to jump on the next plan.

However SA is going through a political transition and there is a underlying frustration and anger growing among the young and poor whose hopes and expectations have not been met. 

And there is the crime that you read about and the horrors stories that go with it.

Australia may sound appealing but i am pretty sure that after a number of years, you will be back at this point.

How do you calm that itch and give your family the lifestyle you had but at the same time ensure a safe environment?

Sadly only you can answer that question. Perhaps contact old friends in SA (not family) and get their views. Also have a listen to 702 talk radio. It gives an insight into the views and thoughts of the general public. You can get apps on your phone to listen to it on the way to work 

Good luck 
3lf


----------



## NorthSouth (Oct 6, 2012)

3lf said:


> It depends why you want to go back. Good lifestyle, space, fantastic climate, people you know and understand in a vibrant and energetic society certainly makes you want to jump on the next plan.
> 
> However SA is going through a political transition and there is a underlying frustration and anger growing among the young and poor whose hopes and expectations have not been met.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your response, I appreciate it. The main reasons why we want to move away from the UK is to be closer to family and also to have a better lifestyle. We make good money in the UK but it feels empty. I would love to be back in SA but I am scared of all the underlying frustration and anger and crime.


----------



## 3lf (Oct 7, 2012)

I know where you're at. My wife and I have been living in London for close for 14 years and each time winter arrives or we go through a "summer" like we've just had, the question about SA comes up again.

Your point about feeling empty is a good one. In a developed country where things work and have done without your help for decades, you don't feel like you're part of something. You're just a tax code. In a developing country like SA, your education, experience and desire to improve what is wrong is very much desired. 

There is quite a few stories online of people who have gone back, have a search. It's slightly biased but interesting.

Finally be sure you decision isn't based on your nostalgia and childhood memories


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

The South Africa you left and hanker for, probably no longer exists.

the Friends and family have moved on with their lives.If you are able to go back and your children are young enough to move again in 3-5 years without major upset (which seems to be the timeframe for the "Honeymooon" to end) and you can afford to then move to Australia and start all over again in a Country where you once more will have no contacts or context...

then do so.

I love SA, its my birthplace, I have Family and friends and a history there.

If I won the Lotto tomorrow and could live anywhere in the World with as much Security as a State President, SA is the last place I would go to.
I have a daughter.


----------



## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

FWIW, I'm a Brit that ran a business in RSA for 32 years, lived there for 11 years and was forced to leave last year. (We went to Portugal)

We miss Africa and our friends there terribly but having been here just over a year, we wouldn't go back to RSA but although the crime and economy are bad there (and getting worse by the day). The main thing that would stop me returning is the politics.

One day, Malema will be President and I'd suspect that'll be within the next two terms and when he does become President, he's going to make Mandela look like a saint...... If I had children that one day would need to earn a living in whatever country they lived in, that fear would be increased by a thousand percent.

If I were younger and assuming I had the right skills the other places I'd consider (other than Europe) would be Oz and possibly the States or Canada. (The weather in Canada might put me off though).


----------



## Jem62 (Jul 25, 2012)

If I were you I'd move back home, as I did nearly two years ago after 23 years in the UK. There is a deep meaningless about living in the UK which eventually catches up with one, particular if you love SA and would like to help to make a contribution to its development. It seemed to me to be entirely pointless training school leaders in the UK when in the Western Cape there is a desperate need for my experience. My experience correctly applied could make a massive difference to the lives of milllions of children. My conscience would no longer allow me to live in the UK. There are people who are suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder given the challenges SA faces and some certainly need to leave for their own well being. Those of us who had time out, have different perspectives, it provides us with a certain distance from what is going on in SA. However, the rewards of returning are, family, friends and quality of life to say nothing about decent weather and an outdoor lifestyle. No one can really say for sure what SA will be like in a decade. As an educationalist I have studied the SA education system, while Township schools are a catastrophe, the former white i.e. Model C schools are 52% black African but interestingly the teachers haven't changed much. In private schools there are 500 000 African kids in these schools. In my research I was able to track what happened to the students in these institutions after they left school and Uni. The overall majority are doing exceedingly well in multinational corporations. To summarise, this is were our leaders will come from in the future, they have the same values as you and I, ambition and hardwork. They will hold governments accountable and will vote to ensure a future for themselves and their children. Interestingly, many of them support extended families in impoverished areas, they will have an effect on how people in these areas vote. The impact will be most clear in 2019. Just to show you that there are movements in SA society going unnoticed. There is hope, come home.


----------



## Orbit24 (Jul 9, 2012)

Jem62 said:


> As an educationalist I have studied the SA education system, while Township schools are a catastrophe, the former white i.e. Model C schools are 52% black African but interestingly the teachers haven't changed much. In private schools there are 500 000 African kids in these schools. In my research I was able to track what happened to the students in these institutions after they left school and Uni. The overall majority are doing exceedingly well in multinational corporations. To summarise, this is were our leaders will come from in the future, they have the same values as you and I, ambition and hardwork. They will hold governments accountable and will vote to ensure a future for themselves and their children. Interestingly, many of them support extended families in impoverished areas, they will have an effect on how people in these areas vote. The impact will be most clear in 2019. Just to show you that there are movements in SA society going unnoticed. There is hope, come home.


Thank you for pointing this out. It is a very valid point that many educated people of colour have entered the SA workforce thanks to education. I call some close colleagues within the reputable multinational that employs me. Whether this will be enough in the short to medium term or not, time will tell.


----------



## mdeb2008 (Oct 29, 2012)

It appears to me that South Africa is still in your blood or in your heart. I don't think that you will make a success of any other country until you leave South Africa mentally.

My advice would be to go back and live there a while - if you can emigrate to OZ then you must have good qualifications which means you will be able to get a job in South Africa. 

Personally I have found it difficult making decisions in the UK - I have lived here since 2009. Last month I went back to SA for a month to have a look see, and everything seemed clearer and easier - people of all races where helpful and friendly. The economy is chaotic - fuel prices in 3 years have gone from below R8 lt to R11.65 lt - food is more expensive than the UK and the choice of shops is limited.

BUT - South Africans are outgoing - the weather is fantastic and life just feels good. Houses are cheaper and larger - and personally I just felt a lot healthier.

In response to a previous reply = If I won the lotto then SA would not be my choice - having not won the lotto it is my first choice. 

I think if you emigrate to OZ now - you will still feel that perhaps you should have 
returned to SA - my family all live in OZ and life isn't that easy there - however it is a lot safer than SA.

I am a UK Citizen who emigrated to SA in 1973 - lived there for 37 years - returned to the UK in 2009 - I feel that South Africa is my home.


----------



## Saartjie (Mar 1, 2010)

NorthSouth said:


> Thank you for your response, I appreciate it. The main reasons why we want to move away from the UK is to be closer to family and also to have a better lifestyle. We make good money in the UK but it feels empty. I would love to be back in SA but I am scared of all the underlying frustration and anger and crime.


As you say that one of the main reason that you want to move is to be close to family then the only option really would be SA (or Finland). We were in the same position as you a while back. I am Swedish and married to SA husband and we had both lived in the UK for over 10 years. We made the move to SA in 2010 and have not regretted it for a second. I have a much better job here than I did in the UK (money wise that is), we have a better standard of living and we are close to family which is lovely since we had our daughter two years ago so family is more important than ever.

I understand you have a huge decision to make and I am not here to convince you at all. Ultimately you need to do what is best for your family. For us it has worked out great so on that basis I can recommend SA.


----------



## Deansharma (Oct 21, 2012)

Saartjie said:


> As you say that one of the main reason that you want to move is to be close to family then the only option really would be SA (or Finland). We were in the same position as you a while back. I am Swedish and married to SA husband and we had both lived in the UK for over 10 years. We made the move to SA in 2010 and have not regretted it for a second. I have a much better job here than I did in the UK (money wise that is), we have a better standard of living and we are close to family which is lovely since we had our daughter two years ago so family is more important than ever.
> 
> I understand you have a huge decision to make and I am not here to convince you at all. Ultimately you need to do what is best for your family. For us it has worked out great so on that basis I can recommend SA.


Is 22 rands per month after tax sufficient or a family of 3 people ..


----------



## Little Mizz Polar Bear (Oct 8, 2010)

Deansharma said:


> Is 22 rands per month after tax sufficient or a family of 3 people ..


R22......I think you can buy 3 loafs of bread, but if you ment R22000 per month, not sure. We left SA 12 years ago and my hubby and I earned together like R16000.00 per month after tax, and we had a Ok life there. We were family of four (2 adults, 1 todler and 1 baby)


----------



## Saartjie (Mar 1, 2010)

Deansharma said:


> Is 22 rands per month after tax sufficient or a family of 3 people ..


I assume you mean R22K per month. No I do not think this is enough for a family of 5. It will be very hard to survive on this.


----------



## Deansharma (Oct 21, 2012)

Yes I mean 22000 R per month after tax. I need to send 2oooR per month back at home so I will be left with only 20oooR per month 
Me any my wife will be shifting to SA Joburg and office is in Sandton 
What do you think should be a comfortable figure I should be targeting 

Pls help


----------



## MCLO101521 (Nov 4, 2012)

Hi Dean.

Between me and my husband we nett on a good month R25k. We do well on this income BUT we don't live in an affluent area so our rent is lower than most places (you can pay as much as R7500 per month for a house in Kempton - excluding utilities). We have two 4 year old boys in creche for a minimal R2200 per month. Our fuel currently is about R3000 per month. We don't drive new cars. We don't have accounts but we do have some luxuries. I don't know what type of food you eat but we usually spend R3000 per month on groceries.

I hope this information will be of help 

Good luck!


----------



## Deansharma (Oct 21, 2012)

Thanks a ton it helps so I plan to live in morningside near to Sandton. Rental would be 10k . We do not have kids and groceries will be 2000. Car rental at R4700 and R3000 in fuel


----------



## 2fargone (Jun 14, 2011)

Deansharma said:


> Thanks a ton it helps so I plan to live in morningside near to Sandton. Rental would be 10k . We do not have kids and groceries will be 2000. Car rental at R4700 and R3000 in fuel


Is that R4,700 a month? I think you could buy a car then sell it when you leave. Even if you pay insurance on it, you would still save money.


----------



## Saartjie (Mar 1, 2010)

Deansharma said:


> Thanks a ton it helps so I plan to live in morningside near to Sandton. Rental would be 10k . We do not have kids and groceries will be 2000. Car rental at R4700 and R3000 in fuel


I still thinks it sound rather low (even though I understand you have no kids). We live in an ok area of Joburg and our rental is R10K. We are two adults and one child and our food bill is about R1000 per week and in addition to that its Water, Electricity, Car payments, ADT (we also pay nursery fee of R3000 per month) etc so it all adds up. We have two incomes, each exceeding your R20,000 which we find is sufficient for our purposes. So I repeat R20,000 sounds low as it seems it will only cover your absolute necessities and you will have no other money for anything else.


----------



## Deansharma (Oct 21, 2012)

That's what I understand its relatively low figure ... But have better clarity from your inputs. I want to come tho this beautiful country but this salary thing is haunting me


----------



## Dawny (Oct 20, 2012)

We are in a similar situation to yourselves. Born UK, lived in SA most of our lives, returned back to the UK in 2008 due to crime, to a soulless society. Sure UK has all the safety and mod cons but its an empty place. We have two sons to think of and have now made the decision to move to Perth.

SA was our first choice -we wanted our sons to have the lifestyle we had growing up there but we have so many friends and family there urging us not to come back because of jobless futures, high rates of violent crime, rises in the cost of living and with Malema and clan the country is in trouble.

We have friends who have been down the same road as us and are now in Oz (some of which moved back to SA before then going to Oz). Every one of them says the same thing. Hearts will always be in Africa but Oz is fantastic and there are futures for their kids. I hope you find the answers you are looking for, its a tough decision when your heart beats to an African drum.


----------



## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

I left RSA about a year ago. We didn't want to go and the move was forced on us but now we're here in Portugal, neither of us would go back but before anyone, especially anyone with children makes a decision to return, it'd be sensible to do a Google search on the phrase 'South African Genocide' to see what the situation is really like. 

Those sites don't pull any punches and they're seriously worrying to say the very least.


----------



## Deansharma (Oct 21, 2012)

Dear Dawny your post touched my heart ...so u were in CT or Joburg . 

It's an intra company transfer so Iam pretty comfortable with job stability.. 

I will be moving to Sandton and understand it's relatively expensive place 

You can take Zulu out of South Africa but you can't take South Africa out of a Zulu


----------



## jdphoenix (Sep 22, 2012)

What made you leave SA in the first place? If whatever made you leave did not change, then I don't see why you should move back to SA. Also, the job situation is extremely bad in SA, and people are increasingly frustrated with the high unemployment rate, and with the fact that government seems to be only focused on creating jobs for the youth (18 - 35), and losing sight of the hundreds of adults with families who've all of a sudden become non-existent or rich enough to survive without a salary. As for the education system, unless you can afford to put your kids in a private school, they will have to be happy to receive an education that leaves much to be desired, does not develop them to take the initiative to create opportunities for themselves (which is what the modern world requires) and be stuck with teachers who conduct lessons in a language which they don't speak well themselves. I would say your best bet would be to do some research on other countries in Europe, for instance the countryside in Italy and France, and maybe think about teaching English in those countries, compare it with your experiences in the UK and SA, and then decide. As for OZ, personally I'm not keen on it as I'd prefer to move to a country that is not similar to SA in many respects.


----------



## jdphoenix (Sep 22, 2012)

:ranger:


jdphoenix said:


> What made you leave SA in the first place? If whatever made you leave did not change, then I don't see why you should move back to SA. Also, the job situation is extremely bad in SA, and people are increasingly frustrated with the high unemployment rate, and with the fact that government seems to be only focused on creating jobs for the youth (18 - 35), and losing sight of the hundreds of adults with families who've all of a sudden become non-existent or rich enough to survive without a salary. As for the education system, unless you can afford to put your kids in a private school, they will have to be happy to receive an education that leaves much to be desired, does not develop them to take the initiative to create opportunities for themselves (which is what the modern world requires) and be stuck with teachers who conduct lessons in a language which they don't speak well themselves. I would say your best bet would be to do some research on other countries in Europe, for instance the countryside in Italy and France, and maybe think about teaching English in those countries, compare it with your experiences in the UK and SA, and then decide. As for OZ, personally I'm not keen on it as I'd prefer to move to a country that is not similar to SA in many respects.


----------



## Dawny (Oct 20, 2012)

All the best Deanshamara I hope it works out for you in SA.
Sandton is a really expensive place to live, in fact most places north of JHB are. We were from Joburg, lived on a small holding and were victims of the usual crimes (came to ahead when a friend was murdered). 
Although I love the land, I could not put my family at risk staying there any longer. I have fond memories too and in an ideal world SA would be safe again to live in and then I'd move back in a heartbeat. My kids have gone from being sporty and into the outdoors and nature to spending life indoors on computer and xbox in the UK. We have decided on Oz as it has a similar climate to SA without their crime and politics, also we have business opportunities there. Europe is not really for me, very old place and mostly tapped resources. But in saying that home is where the heart is and if your happy its the place to be. Good luck wherever you may end up.


----------



## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

We lived in White River next to the KNP and crime, especially armed and/or violent crime was getting considerably worse over the last 3 or 4 years and if that's happening in the Lowveld, I'm sure that the areas around JNB etc must be getting considerably worse. 

We adore all of Africa but at the risk of sounding politically incorrect, the trouble with the entire continent is it's wasted on the bloody Africans.


----------

