# Should i stay or should i go now



## DH1875 (Feb 21, 2009)

After reading a lot of the threads I thought it would be interesting to find out how many people are planning or have moved to Spain in 2009.
Were you thinking about it but have been put off by the EXPATS? 
We find it interesting that most expats advice not to come in 2009 when it turns out that most of them are in no hurry to return to Britain (No offence).

Disfrutar.


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## chris (Jul 5, 2007)

have to say, intially was put off, everytime i read something it just looked worse and worse over their. The really good bit about the doom and gloom and ironically the economic crash is that i have rethought, everthing still coming over just 2 years earlier and not throwing caution to the wind, hubby stays, keeps the house the job, 16 year old stays here, for college, no private school for him, get the 5 and 6 year old in spanish school asap, and if it all goes pear shaped, can not survive out there, no hubby no money will be maintaining 2 houses now, then we come back with the minimal amount of damage done to the youngest 2s education and i can get over this obssesive idea that i need, must and want to move to spain and get on with the rest of my life, if it all works out i get to achieve another way of life for my family. Either way i win.


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

DH1875 said:


> We find it interesting that most expats advice not to come in 2009 when it turns out that most of them are in no hurry to return to Britain (No offence).


The thing is it depends how long we've been here. I've had my NIE since 1994. 

I have a Spanish wife - she's a "job for life" civil servant. I arrived on a HUGE salary and took my employers to court later for unfair dismissal - AND WON. My house is mine. As such I am financially secure here. And after so long here - it's my home. So why would I leave?

But I'll be the first to say that Spain is the only place I've found stable employment to be precarious. It's the only place I've ever had problems finding the work I want to do - to the extent I still do not. It still the land of who you know. I am a prolific network builder and speak fluent (bad fluent and heavily accented maybe) Spanish and German, but even so it is tough. And if you fail - there is near as dammit NO security net. 

ime Spain is NOT a place to be if you cannot guaranty enough income to live on. Even the "working refugees" from poor 3rd world countries are leaving now.

I've never had a STRONG attraction for the UK as I was born outside and raised the first 8 years outside too. I left the UK at 30 for life outside - I left btw for money. I've now lived almost 2/3 of my life outside the UK. My only real ties there are my parents. 

But would I come now, on the never never with no firm plan? - HELL NO. Not unless I was VERY young and had a route back. I've a mate in Germany (a Brit), a bit younger than me, who planned to come over about now - He's told me it simply is NOT WORTH HIS WHILE leaving Germany now. His Wife is ill and so he gets HUGE tax discounts and subsidies for her and his nippers. He also has a decent (though a bit heavy going) job with a massive dismissal period - about 5 years - so he'll retire there unless they go belly up. 

I appreciate there are other circumstances. I've a mate in the UK who WILL be coming over as his wife needs a warm climate for her health. But he's prepared to accept near poverty and live in a trailer to do this. He has a fine house in the UK.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

DH1875 said:


> After reading a lot of the threads I thought it would be interesting to find out how many people are planning or have moved to Spain in 2009.
> Were you thinking about it but have been put off by the EXPATS?
> We find it interesting that most expats advice not to come in 2009 when it turns out that most of them are in no hurry to return to Britain (No offence).
> 
> Disfrutar.


Thats because _we _are here and_ we_ can see whats going on. Me, I'm an early retiree and have the funds just about to carry me through to retirement. I couldnt have done that in the UK.

Two or three years ago people would come on the forums and say they were thinking of coming to Spain to work, no plans, just enough cash to get them through a few months. It was doable with a bit of luck. Nowadays it would be foolish.

Now we can sit on here and tell people everything is fine, but that wouldnt be good advice. We tell it as it is, and people should make up their own minds.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

The reason I sound negative on here is because 18 months ago I WAS like most of the potential expats who come on this site. I thought it would be easy, lots of sunshine, relaxed atmosphere, beautiful beaches and sitting in little street bars... I was told that there was no work out here (even then, before the credit crunch) and I read lots of negative stuff, but quite frankly, I was so desperate to leave the UK and I didnt think it applied to me - of course I could get a job, (I used to seriously believe those expats on the forum just arent trying hard enough), of course things were easier and cheaper in Spain, what do saddoes on a forum know??!!. If the decision to move here had been solely down to me, I´d have just done it! Sold the UK house and bought somewhere cheap over here and live off any equity til I got a job!!! Knowing what i know now, I´d have been sunk without trace, living in a shed or on the street by now! Fortunately my husband was/is extremely cautious - too much so sometimes and dispite lots of arguments, his caution won through and we decided to keep the UK house and he would commute until the time is right to possibly move his business over here. Now I´m here, I realise this would be hell on earth with no income or money. The sun doesnt make up for not having any money, especially when you have kids


I´ve been here a year now and I´m no longer blinded by desperation, this is how it is! Once the novelty wears off (and it will), its not really much different to being in the UK, especially in the winter. You, your family, your life and your attitudes come with you and its just the same sh!t, different place

Jo


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

....... in answer to the title of the thread... just do it!! you´ll not rest until you do, I know that feeling!!! JUST DONT BURN YOUR BRIDGES!

Jo


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## owdoggy (Jul 23, 2008)

DH1875 said:


> After reading a lot of the threads I thought it would be interesting to find out how many people are planning or have moved to Spain in 2009.
> Were you thinking about it but have been put off by the EXPATS?
> We find it interesting that most expats advice not to come in 2009 when it turns out that most of them are in no hurry to return to Britain (No offence).
> 
> Disfrutar.


We're coming over in April come hell or high water
We're both retired so work isn't a problem and we reckon we'll be ok financially as things stand or if it gets a bit worse (which seems to be the popular opinion). But we're renting first so we've got a getout if things go pear shaped.


Doggy

p.s. Happy St David's day to any Taffs on 'ere


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I guess the biggest and most obvious question to ask really is why do you want to come to Spain? The answers to that are decision makers!


Jo


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## owdoggy (Jul 23, 2008)

jojo said:


> I guess the biggest and most obvious question to ask really is why do you want to come to Spain? The answers to that are decision makers!
> 
> 
> Jo


We want to sloooooooooooooooow down and living in the back of beyond in a country where everything is manana (can't find the squiggly thing to spell it properly) seems pretty good to us........ unless you need summat doing smartish in which case, as far as I can tell ...... you're knackered

.....and they love their motorcycle racing ......

...... and the weather of course......

...... and the food's bloody good as well ......

...... and it's a stunning country ....

...... did I mention the food?


Doggy


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

DH1875 said:


> We find it interesting that most expats advice not to come in 2009 when it turns out that most of them are in no hurry to return to Britain.


Like Stravinsky said....it's because we're here, and we see how things really are. We're not selling you a dream on a TV prog or hoping to line our pockets with a fat commission if you buy something from us.

So essentially we have no vested interest in saying anything other than the truth.

My personal situation is that I'm one of the few, and I mean _very_ few who came over here, started a business, and survived.

However, I'd been doing what I do for more than twenty years in the UK, and I have the determination of a rabid pitbull.....so unless you're bringing those sort of attributes to the table you can forget it......because you'll end up just another victim.


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Do what you want - it's not going to change my life one iota and if you think we are doom and gloom I would suggest that you should check the word "reality" in your dictionary. I (and many others) just try to give you the FACTS. These are facts gleaned from 24/7 life IN Spain and not from a "Wish You Were Here" work of fiction. Whether you choose to accept this, is entirely up to you. 

Up until probably 6/7 weeks ago I would support people coming. Now, unless you have the money (and *******) to set up your own business and the determination of a rabid pitbull I fear it will end in tears. It does so for almost every expat I know who does not speak excellent Spanish and who cannnot work/buy/negotiate/ in the Spanish markets. You will NEED enchufes and as 99% of the people I tell this to don't know what these are, you will first have to find them and secondly have to pay (dearly) for them until you start building your own network. 

I do not "need" to work and for health reasons do not buy 10 years diaries. I have nobody to who needs my inheritance (if there is any left!) so I pretty much do what I like (..being abused by XTreme, watching Barcelona lose yet again and improving my Spanish etc) 

I do however a skill set that means I can charge myself out at x times what 99% of expats could only dream of and I have residual incomes coming from previous lives. I do what I did in the UK for 30 years. Most people aren't lucky enough to do that. It means I can involve myself in things I enjoy doing - writing on forums, trying to assist those that get in a mess over here and generally being abused by XTreme (again!) ......without having a "boss" to worry about. 

I am here primarily for health reasons and IMHO you CANNOT beat the Spanish Health System. I have "enjoyed" the English NHS and would not go back to that. I do not even want to talk about the Swedish/Norwegian systems. The Spanish Mediterranean climate is good for my health but I am under a lot of pressure to go back to Norway or Sweden. However, I just do not see that happening. Bergen 92 days on the row ..... of rain! Strömstad - 4 months of regarding plus degrees as being a heatwave etc. 

¡Aquí hay tomate, aquí no hay mucha pasta!

PS Had an email this week from a guy who has worked all his life for Ford in the UK. He says things are tough there and that he's thinking about coming to Spain. "Do you think I will find a job working on a car production line? I will be prepared to work nights" This was so dumb/ironic as to be almost amusing. I would have thought that with him being in the industry he might have heard that the Spanish car manufacturing industry is on its knees, that there were huge demonstrations in Zaragoza/Valencia again recently and that the manufacturers are BEGGING for EU hand-outs to keep them alive. Opel have this week laid-off 16,000 sub-contract workers ..... so NO I do not think he will be successful in finding paid employment - on the day or night shift! IF however he walked out of Ford with a huge pay-off and opened a professional taller then MAYBE he would survive. Good Luck to all. We are going to need it.


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## DH1875 (Feb 21, 2009)

CALM DOWN, CALM DOWN.

I did not mean to offend anyone and just thought that it would be interesting to throw it out as a debate. 
Steve I actually find your threads to be very informative and would advise people to listen to what you say. Not saying you are always right but they should listen. We have had a slight change of plan and decided that we will be coming out for a 6 month holiday and if we get lucky and find work in that time we will stay, if not we will either just come back here or try some place else.

Almost forgot but does enchufes not mean contacts.

Ta-Ta for now.


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

DH1875 said:


> CALM DOWN, CALM DOWN.
> 
> I did not mean to offend anyone and just thought that it would be interesting to throw it out as a debate.
> Steve I actually find your threads to be very informative and would advise people to listen to what you say. Not saying you are always right but they should listen. We have had a slight change of plan and decided that we will be coming out for a 6 month holiday and if we get lucky and find work in that time we will stay, if not we will either just come back here or try some place else.
> ...


Don't worry. I am not offended. I was offended this week by a drunk Spaniard who thought I was a Liverpool supporter just because I was English. I asked whether he was a Barcelona fan just because he was Spanish. He muttered something darkly about mothers and whores and went off and bought another round ....and fell asleep for most of the second half! To be called a "pale red" IS an offence as any TRUE red would tell you!! 

Sounds. like a plan to me. 

You could not upset me today - Real Madrid, Gillingham and Man Utd win and Man Cxxx and Barcelona lose. With luck XTreme will have missed out on some sub-30 guapita as she has to finish her homework and my life will be complete!


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

I'm still on the case Steve.....they don't call me El Rey de los Guiris for nothing!


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## DH1875 (Feb 21, 2009)

I know where you are coming from. It is like when we are called English despite being from Scotland. Only Joking, think I have taken enough of a bashing today.


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

All my family were from Cowdenbeath .... a great place to come FROM!!

XTreme - they don't call you El Rey de los Guiris! (Punto, final)


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

DH1875 said:


> CALM DOWN, CALM DOWN.
> 
> I did not mean to offend anyone and just thought that it would be interesting to throw it out as a debate.
> 
> Almost forgot but does enchufes not mean contacts.


Not offended either - just making sure we all understand why I write as I do. I'm still oddly surprised every time I see a post from somebody like Steves "Ford worker" example. 

There is a reason why the burning ambition of huge numbers of school leavers in Spain is to be a "funcionario" - even just a loo cleaner. It's not the salary (which is LOW). It's because it IS guaranteed for life. You can plan your life.

The same reasoning applies to why many IT folk try like blazes to get into the duller IT places like HP. I have found real geniuses in Spain working in desperately dull posts by choice. In the UK (or Germany) these would be out there earning massive incomes - but with a safety net. Here thers is none - so many (one might say the clever) opt for security rather than riches.

I work in a town hall - the work is dire but within reason it's easy. You'd think this would be a stable job - but it's only half so as it's paid for by state subsidies. It is however becoming frustrating due to the political shenanigans attached. I doubt I will have work in June. Cant say I'll be too upset. 

Yup Enchufe in this context means contact.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

DH1875 said:


> CALM DOWN, CALM DOWN.
> 
> I did not mean to offend anyone and just thought that it would be interesting to throw it out as a debate.
> Steve I actually find your threads to be very informative and would advise people to listen to what you say. Not saying you are always right but they should listen. We have had a slight change of plan and decided that we will be coming out for a 6 month holiday and if we get lucky and find work in that time we will stay, if not we will either just come back here or try some place else.
> ...



I think its an interesting thread and raises valuable points for those who come on the forum looking to find out more. I think you´re like lots of potential expats (me included) and you need to come over and see how life can be here for yourself. Theres nothing wrong in that, providing you have taken on board what´s said and make sure that you have a way back.

The reason why alot of the expats on the forum are in no hurry to go back is that the ones that have gone back arent on here anymore! There have been a few on here that couldnt make it for a variety of reasons - mainly money. People come and go and dont like to admit defeat on an open forum


Jo


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

hi .... I thought we had done a lot of of research, and we arrived in spain with a good "safety Net" to get us through a year or more - and that was almost 5 years ago when work was a lot easier to come by. I have been lucky in that I have been employed since the day I arrived, my husband has not been so lucky and has regularly fallen prey to the "not getting paid" brigade. 
Would we do it again if we could turn back the clocks ? - I dont think I can truthfully answer that - because I would probably be basing my decision now and what has happened over the last year or so ....rather than on the same set of circumstances we were in 5 years ago.

What does continually surprise me is how it appears that there are a lot of people wanting to leave the uk who seem to genuinely believe the recession / credit crunch, whatever you want to call it, is only happening there!!! and that the rest of the world is going ok! In my work I am in regular contact with people in other Countries, and subscribe to newspapers and journals from different parts of the world - maybe thats what gives me a wider perspective and more knowledge of just how bad the current situation is worldwide. 

Perhaps if I were in the UK and having never lived outside it, and was only exposed to the UK news and media - maybe I too would think the world outside the UK was a brighter, shinier place to escape to .... and that it was just Gordon Brown who´d got it all wrong!

At this moment in time I would advise people not to come unless they were financially self sufficient .... and I would never have said that to anyone for the first 4 years we were here.

As for us - we have no plans to leave Spain - its very very tough at the moment - but this is where we moved to - with the intention of it becoming "home" .... and thats exactly what it has become - so we will just keep our heads down, work hard and hope to god we get through it as best we can ......


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Good point, Jojo about the ones who are no longer hear not answering. You reminded me that I have not checked The Local - Sweden's news in English which I always used when I was in Sweden 

In the same way I don't devour the Swedish papers as I did when I lived there - online versions just do not "do it" for me. The Swedes have an expression, "Borta bra, hemma bäst" 
"It's good to be away but it's best to be at home") I think in the eye of a storm one's home/a safe harbour is best. For me Spain IS my home ...however much I am torn back to Sweden.


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

SteveHall said:


> I think in the eye of a storm one's home/a safe harbour is best.


100% in agreement! - Unless you're from Viking stock maybe!


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## DH1875 (Feb 21, 2009)

Sorry everyone but just looking for some more advice.
If I were earning €18,000 per year in Spain before tax how much would I roughly walk away with once the Spanish government took their share?

Thanks.


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

DH1875 said:


> Sorry everyone but just looking for some more advice.
> If I were earning €18,000 per year in Spain before tax how much would I roughly walk away with once the Spanish government took their share?
> 
> Thanks.


Well, you would be paying social security each month (which I believe is approx 260 euros) and the tax issue is complex in my experience! they seem to set off at the beginning of each financial year charging me 2/3% tax which increases each month and at the end of the year I end up paying 35% !!! when I put in my "renta" at the end of the year they tell me if I am due any rebate or have underpaid - in 5 years I underpaid approx 1000 euros in total.

No matter how many conversations I have with our accountant / financial manager at work the explanation as to how the tax is calculated always leaves me with a blank look! but then Ive never been good at figures lol !

Im sure there is someone far more qualified on here that will give you a more definitive response!


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## asimegusta (Mar 14, 2009)

*It all depends*



chris(madrid) said:


> The thing is it depends how long we've been here. I've had my NIE since 1994.
> 
> I have a Spanish wife - she's a "job for life" civil servant. I arrived on a HUGE salary and took my employers to court later for unfair dismissal - AND WON. My house is mine. As such I am financially secure here. And after so long here - it's my home. So why would I leave?
> 
> ...


Excellent analysis. Very well said.

I've had my NIE since 2000 and have found it to be as said above. IMHO,

Spain is great IF you have a job, guaranteed income from outside the country, can rely on your own people's network of trustworthy professionals, friends, family.

Spain is a nightmare IF
you have to rely on local employers for stable income to pay day to day living expenses, have to rely on locals for professionals services, social life.

In either case, it's a given that you speak Castellano Spanish.


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## sears (Jan 28, 2009)

have been looking to move to spain for some years now look at all the info in the good years 
lots say dont come no work very hard and now in the bad years same dont come i think some off you living in spain dont no what it is lick now in the uk if it is so bad in spain way stay


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

sears said:


> have been looking to move to spain for some years now look at all the info in the good years
> lots say dont come no work very hard and now in the bad years same dont come i think some off you living in spain dont no what it is lick now in the uk if it is so bad in spain way stay



Well said.... I think???!!!LOL

Jo


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## sears (Jan 28, 2009)

am from viking stock


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Hoppas att du trivs härnere!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

sears said:


> am from viking stock


Well I got the jist of what you said - I think and I agree!!

Jo


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## gazzyboi (Mar 17, 2009)

Dont go back!!! Englands dying fast!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

gazzyboi said:


> Dont go back!!! Englands dying fast!


At least in england theres unemployment benefit, social housing, NHS and the language. In Spain with no work and no income theres nothing

Jo x


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## gazzyboi (Mar 17, 2009)

yep and i wouldnt take "unemployment benefit and social housing" if you paid me.

suppose its surviuval of the fittist out here, only the people who really want to be here or can be okay financially will stay until the end of the resession

sad really.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

gazzyboi said:


> yep and i wouldnt take "unemployment benefit and social housing" if you paid me.


I wouldnt want to either and I´ve never had to fortunately, but if it were the only option left it would be foolish not to. Rather that than a cardboard box and a begging bowl! 

Jo x


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I left the UK a few years ago, lived in Central Europe, got tired of poor service, food and weather so decided to move to Spain to the area around Marbella because I'd spent time in property my family owns here and knew and liked the area. Like Stravinsky, I retired early as I wanted to enjoy life and had sufficient means to be able to do what I wanted. Fortunately my preferred pastimes -lying in the sun, reading, listening to music, being with friends -don't cost that much to keep up.
I've not been in Spain long but my impressions so far are that Spain is like anywhere else in the world: fine if you have enough money to live and then some left over for enjoyment but hell if you are not in that position. 
I think anyone coming here whose experience of 'abroad' has been confined to package holidays and imagines that living in Spain is like living in, say, Bournemouth with extra sun, will get a very rude awakening. It's OK to take a chance if you are single but foolhardy if you have family responsibilities.
I thought I was fairly cynical but I have already encountered rip-off experiences here more blatant than any in Prague or Poland. The level of petty crime seems about the same and the culprits the same kind of people, even.
But all in all, I consider this is a good place to live. The World Health Organisation describes the Costa del Sol as one of the healthiest places to live on the planet, apparently. Spanish people I've encountered are open and friendly, especially if addressed in their native tongue, however ungrammatically.
Although when I am old and decrepit -hopefully a long way off -I will return to the UK (NOT England though) this is where I intend to spend the next few years.
But I would not consider leaving the UK for a 'better life' here unless I was 100% sure of a continued steady income and had had experience of independent travel and life in foreign countries.
And as Jo-Jo rightly points out, the social security safety net is there to catch the unlucky in the UK. Like her, I've never had to use it but at this time there are tens of thousands of middle-class professionals, many earning good salaries, who now are only to glad of that safety net.


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> I left the UK a few years ago, lived in Central Europe, got tired of poor service, food and weather so decided to move to Spain to the area around Marbella because I'd spent time in property my family owns here and knew and liked the area. Like Stravinsky, I retired early as I wanted to enjoy life and had sufficient means to be able to do what I wanted. Fortunately my preferred pastimes -lying in the sun, reading, listening to music, being with friends -don't cost that much to keep up.
> I've not been in Spain long but my impressions so far are that Spain is like anywhere else in the world: fine if you have enough money to live and then some left over for enjoyment but hell if you are not in that position.
> I think anyone coming here whose experience of 'abroad' has been confined to package holidays and imagines that living in Spain is like living in, say, Bournemouth with extra sun, will get a very rude awakening. It's OK to take a chance if you are single but foolhardy if you have family responsibilities.
> I thought I was fairly cynical but I have already encountered rip-off experiences here more blatant than any in Prague or Poland. The level of petty crime seems about the same and the culprits the same kind of people, even.
> ...


I think the UK's safety net might be a little shot to hell. Have a look at the BBC site today. A lady in the world of marketting has gone from Middle England to the street in no time at all. No social housing etc,. etc., for her. What happened there then?!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Xose said:


> I think the UK's safety net might be a little shot to hell. Have a look at the BBC site today. A lady in the world of marketting has gone from Middle England to the street in no time at all. No social housing etc,. etc., for her. What happened there then?!


True and its not perfect, but I think this is an exception. In Spain if you havent paid into the system its the rule!

Jo


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## asimegusta (Mar 14, 2009)

> Although when I am old and decrepit -hopefully a long way off -I will return to the UK (NOT England though) this is where I intend to spend the next few years


Yes, Spain is a wonderful place when you are able-bodied. 

But leaving a Northern European country to find a "better life" in Spain? No. 

It could be a respite, sabbatic time, an adventure yes, an enriching life experience, yes, an escape from boredom. Spain still has alot of catching up to do.

Now which one of you forum rats is going to wack me now. Been here less than a week, 2 posts, 2 "corrections". from the experts .. holy moly!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Xose said:


> I think the UK's safety net might be a little shot to hell. Have a look at the BBC site today. A lady in the world of marketting has gone from Middle England to the street in no time at all. No social housing etc,. etc., for her. What happened there then?!



That story proves nothing - it was interesting just how little background information was given about this woman. We were not told about the nature of previous employment,what had happened to her former home (was it reposessed, was she in fact a homeowner, etc), why her children couldn't help her and so on. We don't really know 'what happened there'.
I suspected that there was less than meets the eye in this case.
As for social housing: since the Thatcher period, social housing has not been instantly available in England for single people or couples without children. You can go on the waiting list and die waiting.
But imperfect as it may be, our system is better than that of many EU countries and certainly than that of the USA.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

asimegusta said:


> Yes, Spain is a wonderful place when you are able-bodied.
> 
> But leaving a Northern European country to find a "better life" in Spain? No.
> 
> ...


Well, from my equally limited experience, I'd say you are right.
Wherever you are, life is easier when you are able-bodied and have adequate means to support your chosen lifestyle.
This is true of all the countries I've had experience of - Canada, Czech Republic, Poland, Germany, France- and it's true of Spain.
Only a very naive person could think otherwise.


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