# Moving to Germany With Swedish wife



## costmo (Nov 6, 2015)

I know similar questions have been answered, but each situation is different, and I'm confused.


Background: I'm American, and my wife is Swedish. We're currently traveling the world, but we've decided to settle (at least a little while) in Germany, so we now have a flight about five weeks from now from Bangkok to Berlin. My wife grew up in Germany, but has since called London home.

Problem:

I have seen post after post about "joining my EU spouse in Germany," but I can only do so if she is exercising treaty rights. Sounds simple enough, but we're moving there together, so she doesn't have a job yet. When we were talking about settling in London, it was more straightforward. I could get an EEA family permit if she was exercising treaty rights OR we were moving there together. I can't find the "OR we were moving there together" part for Germany (because why would she have a job if we're not there yet?).

To make matters a little more confusing (maybe), I'm self-employed (American-registered DBA) and my work is all online.

Based on the info I have been able to gather, here's what I think the process will look like:

1. Flight to Germany
2. I'll look for an apartment, while my wife looks for a job.
3. Once we an apartment, we'll register with the police
4. I'll have to prove I have basic German skills (not sure if this applies to spouses of non-German EU citizens or ONLY those of German citizens)
5. Once she has a job, I'll register for a residence permit?
6. I'll either register as self-employed or create a German company
7. Open new bank accounts and register for VAT.

Questions:

- Can I really not work until I have a residence permit? That will take my wife finding a job and then going through the application process + whatever waiting period. I read somewhere that it could take 6 months to get that issued.

- The reason we're headed back to Berlin is to start a company that needs to be stationary, but she needs to register as employed or self-employed to "exercise treaty rights" and get me a residence card. I can't work until I get the residence card, but there won't be any income without me. Is she going to need to report income to register as self-employed or does she need to get a (symbolic) job?

- Does my wife need anything other than her passport to work in Germany? Is there a German equivalent of a national insurance number?

- Can I maintain my American clients in the United States, and just take on new ones with a (new) German company, or will I have to begin charging my old clients VAT once I register? (no sales tax or VAT in Oregon) - I can probably save tax and VAT questions for another post.

Thanks in advance for any info you can pass along!


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## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

I know similar questions have been answered, but each situation is different, and I'm confused.


Background: I'm American, and my wife is Swedish. We're currently traveling the world, but we've decided to settle (at least a little while) in Germany, so we now have a flight about five weeks from now from Bangkok to Berlin. My wife grew up in Germany, but has since called London home.

Problem:

I have seen post after post about "joining my EU spouse in Germany," but I can only do so if she is exercising treaty rights. Sounds simple enough, but we're moving there together, so she doesn't have a job yet. When we were talking about settling in London, it was more straightforward. I could get an EEA family permit if she was exercising treaty rights OR we were moving there together. I can't find the "OR we were moving there together" part for Germany (because why would she have a job if we're not there yet?).

*You can apply for a Schengen visa under EU law as spouse of an EEA national. That would enable you to work right away but expect people not to know that as it will look like a regular tourist visa.*

To make matters a little more confusing (maybe), I'm self-employed (American-registered DBA) and my work is all online.

Based on the info I have been able to gather, here's what I think the process will look like:

1. Flight to Germany
2. I'll look for an apartment, while my wife looks for a job.
3. Once we an apartment, we'll register with the police
4. I'll have to prove I have basic German skills (not sure if this applies to spouses of non-German EU citizens or ONLY those of German citizens) *No need for this.*
5. Once she has a job, I'll register for a residence permit? *No, a residence permit (Aufenthaltstitel) would be German domestic immigration law.You'll need to apply for a residence card (Aufenthaltskarte).*
6. I'll either register as self-employed or create a German company
7. Open new bank accounts and register for VAT.

Questions:

- Can I really not work until I have a residence permit? That will take my wife finding a job and then going through the application process + whatever waiting period. I read somewhere that it could take 6 months to get that issued. *It depends on a number of factors - your nationality, the supporting documents you submitted, etc. Some applications are decided on the day of application, some take 6 months. An application with the EEA national 'exercising treaty rights' as a jobseeker is less likely to get a quick decision. More likely for them to put the application aside, wait 90 days since your arrival has passed and then ask for proof of health insurance, finances and exercising treaty rights.*

- The reason we're headed back to Berlin is to start a company that needs to be stationary, but she needs to register as employed or self-employed to "exercise treaty rights" and get me a residence card. I can't work until I get the residence card, but there won't be any income without me. Is she going to need to report income to register as self-employed or does she need to get a (symbolic) job? *Employment or self-employment needs to be genuine and effective, at least 16 hours/week. Freedom of movement has been designed for an EEA national to be able to move freely for a job (and if applicable be able to easily take a non-EEA spouse along), not for an EEA national to trail after a non-EEA spouse. So, yes, the rules have not been designed with your scenario in mind. She could be self-sufficient through your income but your right to stay longer than 90 days and work is derived from her exercising treaty rights in the first place. *

- Does my wife need anything other than her passport to work in Germany? Is there a German equivalent of a national insurance number? *She will automatically get her tax number in the post after registering her residence. So will you. This does not indicate right to work in itself.*

- Can I maintain my American clients in the United States, and just take on new ones with a (new) German company, or will I have to begin charging my old clients VAT once I register? (no sales tax or VAT in Oregon) - I can probably save tax and VAT questions for another post. *Ask an international tax advisor conversant in both German and US laws.*

Thanks in advance for any info you can pass along!

*Don't forget researching health insurance for your situation! It's mandatory from the day you register your residence and could be tricky and/or expensive if you are self-employed and your wife doesn't work (yet).
*


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## costmo (Nov 6, 2015)

Thanks a ton for taking the time out to offer such a wealth of info!

I have a couple of follow-up questions:

1) If they set it aside for 90 days, I assume I won't be expected to leave Germany, but my Schengen entry stamp is only good for 90 days. What do I do then?

2) I'm going to assume this only applies to the initial visa to get into the country and I may be opting out of it by entering on a Schengen stamp and that the UK is only different because it is not part of the Schengen area, but I thought my right to live and work (as an EEA spouse) was meant to be delivered as fast and prudent (or some such wording) as possible? Doesn't making an EEA spouse a lower priority contradict the spirit of freedom of movement?

Just for the record, my wife isn't trailing me. We're just trying to figure out the most logical place to settle down for a little while in the midst of traveling the world. That, and we're sort of "trying it out" as we've talked about raising kids there. She thought it was such a great place for her own childhood. We're trying to get a new company started (a real/genuine one of which she's a part), but for any startup or freelancer, 90 days is a very short time to go from 0 to significant income. 16 working hours is easy to attain, but 16 billable hours is another story..

Anyway, I can accept that she may need a job. I thin she's even pretty excited about it (getting back into the work force after traveling for two years), but I'm going to do whatever I can to get myself legal to work as early as possible.

Again, thanks for your help. I will definitely figure out what we're going to do for insurance...I just haven't done enough research to ask any real questions!


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

To reiterate, from my limited understanding of the EU mobility route (neither my spouse nor I have EU/EEA passports) it's your spouse who needs to have the "reason" for living in Germany, be it working or studying. She is the primary actor, she cannot be supported by you. 

One thing in your favour, given that your wife grew up in Germany and presumably speaks German, is that the authorities seem well-disposed to middle-class people from privileged (i.e. US or Canada or EU/EEA) countries who speak the language. 

Depending on your personal risk tolerance and sense of ethical behaviour and all that, it would not be difficult to continue working remotely immediately after arrival, keeping that business exclusively offshore, as a temporary measure to earn money while your wife looks for a job. Then once you're both settled you can begin setting up your new business, or setting yourself up as self-employed. Not strictly legal, but if you keep it under 90 day none will be any the wiser.


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## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

costmo said:


> Thanks a ton for taking the time out to offer such a wealth of info!
> 
> I have a couple of follow-up questions:
> 
> ...


1) You have to apply for a residence card within 90 days of arrival. At the time of application you will receive a document stating that you have an ongoing application and that you can stay in Germany until it is decided.

2) Whether you apply for a Schengen visa as the spouse of an EEA national beforehand or at the border (the stamp is your visa/entry clearance) doesn't make much difference. As a US national you would also not need to apply for the EEA family permit but it's advised as it makes it clear that you enter the UK under EU rules. 

Your spouse has a right to live and work in any EEA country and once it is established that she is exercising treaty rights, your right to live and work will usually be confirmed without much fuss. As I said, the rules of free movement were set up so that the EEA spouse can easily take up employment in another EEA country. What a non-EEA spouse might be doing is basically immaterial for the residence card process until the EEA partner has established their right to stay beyond 90 days.

All I meant to say is that EU free movement rules are not ideal for couples where the non-EEA national is the main breadwinner. I didn't mean to offend, I apologise if I did.

Self employment is also harder to evidence for residence card purposes, so it might be a good idea for your wife to take the first job that is over 16 hours a week and stick it out until your residence card is issued (which might be on the day of application if she can show a salary slip). Such a job would also immediately take care of health insurance for both of you, so win-win


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## costmo (Nov 6, 2015)

No worries, you didn't offend me. I just wanted to be clear. Thanks for the advice, I think she is interested in getting a part time job.

Responding to "Nononymous", I definitely intend to continue working for my American clients, but when I spent 2 months in London with my then-fiancé, I got asked by every single potential client if I "had the right to work in London." I explained that I was getting married in 1-3 months, and I would have the right to work in London as soon as it was legal. "Until then, you'll be working with my American company, instead of directly with me. I will however be conducting 'business meetings' in the country as is allowed on my UK entry stamp." (not sure if the rules are the same in Germany) It would be a lot nicer to gain German clients and not have to worry much about questions like that/bend the rules.

I'm not doubting anything either of you is saying, but take a look at this (EU rules, not German specific): Workers' and pensioners' non-EU family - Your Europe

According to this Document, all I need to enter is a valid passport (and presumably proof of relationship), and a country cannot discriminate in terms of employment, even during the first three months. Understood, that I would still have to convince a potential employer that I have the right to live and work. 

Am I reading that wrong? Can either of you comment on it?

Thank you both!


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Although you theoretically have the right to work from the get go, most employers and potential clients will want to wait until you have a resident permit that says you're legal to work and (maybe most importantly) your VAT registration number so that they can be assured that you are VAT registered (and so that they can deduct VAT paid to you from their VAT collected from their customers or clients).

If you aren't actually legal to work, it's normally the employer or customer that suffers (and the penalties are pretty strict), not the person who assured them they were "legal." For that reason people want to see your paperwork showing that you are legal and properly registered as such.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

Don't take this as a criticism - it's not like I and many others haven't done similar things - but what you were doing in London probably wasn't legal. It's one thing to come on a long holiday - visiting and living with your fiance for a few months - while continuing to work remotely for clients at home. (A really strict interpretation of the law suggests that you can't even do that, but since it's undetectable and does no harm, nobody cares except for a few crabby types on some of the other country forums here.) 

However, soliciting clients after arrival then telling them they'd be hiring your American company and you've only flown over for "business meetings" - come on, that fools nobody. (It's even a bit unethical if, say, you aren't paying the same tax and health insurance charges as the local competition and can easily undercut them.) Again, I can't be too critical here - I've done similar things - but I'm suggesting that while it's a reasonable strategy for temporary visits the length of a tourist visa, it's not the right way to start out if you're actually planning a long-term stay in Germany. You might want to be a bit more careful. 

I'd say that keeping your American clients "offshore" as a source of income while you're getting settled is one thing - with the intention of sorting that out to pay German taxes on it once you've set yourself up as a freelancer. But seeking out German clients on the basis of "technically I should be legal but I don't have a tax number yet" is perhaps unwise.


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## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

costmo said:


> No worries, you didn't offend me. I just wanted to be clear. Thanks for the advice, I think she is interested in getting a part time job.
> 
> Responding to "Nononymous", I definitely intend to continue working for my American clients, but when I spent 2 months in London with my then-fiancé, I got asked by every single potential client if I "had the right to work in London." I explained that I was getting married in 1-3 months, and I would have the right to work in London as soon as it was legal. "Until then, you'll be working with my American company, instead of directly with me. I will however be conducting 'business meetings' in the country as is allowed on my UK entry stamp." (not sure if the rules are the same in Germany) It would be a lot nicer to gain German clients and not have to worry much about questions like that/bend the rules.
> 
> ...


It could also be a good idea to look into the freelancer visa - it's usually pretty easy to obtain for Americans with the right profession (teaching English, IT, etc.) this would give you the right to work before your wife finds a job, keep everything official and you could always switch to a residence card after she gets her first payslip.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

Just be aware that for the freelancer visa you'd probably need at least one, preferably two, offers or expressions of interest from German clients - offshore alone likely won't do it - and would need to prove adequate health insurance.

However, if you frame it in the context of being married to a Swede who's in the process of looking for a job - and who might be politely speaking to them in German on your behalf - then you'd probably receive very sympathetic treatment.


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## costmo (Nov 6, 2015)

Nononymous said:


> However, soliciting clients after arrival then telling them they'd be hiring your American company and you've only flown over for "business meetings" - come on, that fools nobody. (It's even a bit unethical if, say, you aren't paying the same tax and health insurance charges as the local competition and can easily undercut them.) Again, I can't be too critical here - I've done similar things - but I'm suggesting that while it's a reasonable strategy for temporary visits the length of a tourist visa, it's not the right way to start out if you're actually planning a long-term stay in Germany. You might want to be a bit more careful.


I didn't get any criticism from them. Most of the people I talked to were pretty thrilled that I was reestablishing myself in Europe. I'm not sure what obligations my competition has in London, but I was quite a bit more expensive than most I found there, but I think that has more to do with the status of my profession in London vs West Coast America.

However, I see your point. I won't be doing that in Germany. 

I think this brings up a whole other line of inquiry for business travel throughout Europe though. Once I'm paying German taxes and registered for VAT, what's to stop me from traveling (temporarily) to, say, Norway, where I can solicit work that pays better without having to pay their higher taxes and charging a higher VAT? I'm guessing there's something stopping a non-EU citizen from doing that, but I just wouldn't know what that is.


Thanks everyone for the suggestions, advice, and for giving real/thought-out responses! I'll look into the freelancer visa, but my wife and I have talked about it, and I think we're going to take a normal route (ie she gets a job, and I hope everything goes as quickly as it can).


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

You might not have received any criticism in London, but my hunch is that what you were doing wasn't quite legal either. My somewhat limited experience with Germany suggests that employers aren't necessarily all that aware of the finer points of immigration and tax law - which sometimes can work to your advantage, but also requires caution.

As for Norway, you'd want to get some professional advice, but I would assume that once you've legally established yourself and your business in Germany, you should be able to go solicit clients elsewhere in the EU, as long as you return to Germany to do the work.


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