# The big balloon debate



## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Possible Spanish balloon debate (The possibility was raised on another thread so here goes. It is a first shot so go along with me. Mods hope this is OK. If not I'm sure I'll be hearing ).

RULE 1 it is just for FUN 

Well start small. Four people are in a balloon travelling from England to Spain. A lack of firewood creates a problem. They need to loose weight to gain height or into the drink they go. They throw everything (including the kitchen sink) overboard. The balloon is loosing height. Three must jump overboard so one may survive. If not they will all end up in the Bay of Biscay. They decide to choose based on debating skills. They have to support one of the following arguments:


Spain’s problems can only be resolved by more socialist government
Spain’s problems can only be resolved by a right wing government
Spain’s problems can only be resolved by more regional autonomy
Spain’s problems can only be resolved by leaving the Euro

Their argument skill will decide their fate. All but the winner must jump to a watery end  One will reach Spain :clap2:

Your entry must be one pm sent to me. “ I believe this most strongly because ...... 200 to 300 words....”. I will post all at the time limit. You do not have to believe your own argument. 

Timetable: Start – 48 hours to send your argument – 24 hours to ask a question of another balloon companion – 24 hours to reply to one or more questions – 24 hours to vote (open to all). Then we throw the least appreciated overboard. Then ‘free for all’ discussion within forum rules of course.

RULE 1 it is just for FUN .
RULE 2 First come first served. Volunteer by posting here the argument you want to support. Also say if your argument has gone if you will accept any others. 
RULE 2.1 You must have been a member here for a while and shown some evidence of friendly participation. Sorry to new members but if your active here you will soon get in.
RULE 3 Vote should be for quality of argument and not reflect personal views. This is DEBATE.
RULE 4 it is just for FUN .
RULE 5 these rules will change over time but this is just an initial experiment.
I’ll start a new thread for the debate so please any thoughts and entrants here but let us get underway before we hear of a million and one alternatives.
RULE 6 there is no rule 6.
RULE 7 it is just a bit of FUN


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

Come on folks, send in your PMs... It's fun and using your brain at the same time ... Nigele, check your PM


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

er.......... ok, I'll say it, I'll admit to it.................... I dont understand the question 

jo xxx


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## Caz.I (Mar 21, 2009)

I think perhaps some people might not have looked at the thread because they dont understand what the controversy is about balloons! (Or are thinking - Richard Branson?) Maybe rename it? Or to make it simpler for people, maybe just make a controversial statement and see what happens?


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Caz.I said:


> I think perhaps some people might not have looked at the thread because they dont understand what the controversy is about balloons! (Or are thinking - Richard Branson?) Maybe rename it? Or to make it simpler for people, maybe just make a controversial statement and see what happens?


Caz first thought your last post on "What's good about UK" was excellent. Now that could make a good debate .

As for renaming it I think to be honest it has little to do with the title. The original thread and this have some 200 views between them. I just think here there are not many people that interested but I thought I'd give it a go (still open to be proved wrong)..

Gerrit has contributed already but I doubt we will find 4 people interested in total from current response. 

As you said in the UK thread most are in spain for an easy life for a while. They are not into Spain in any depth despite plenty of information and discussion being available in English. I'm not trying to be critical but just honest.

It seems a shame. Here there is a community that is great. The community largely serve the visitors who come and go. But I had hoped the forum might offer the regulars the opportunity to get into deeper issues effecting Spain. There have been one or two good discussions from time to time. This just seemed a fun way to take it further. But I guess this is not the place.

Gerrit your entry is very interesting. I will wait and see for a while but if nothing happens I'll get back to you and post my example effort based on 'the need for labour reform but the type of reform which offers the workers a carrot and not the employers a bigger stick'.

Jo it's not really a question but a statement. If you believe for example that Spain could better solve its current problems if it was out of the Euro you need to persuade the reader with good argument (in 200 to 300 words). The skill of debate is not that you believe the statement (although that might help) but your powers of persuation. I remember once having to defend fox hunting with dogs in a debate. I am against fox hunting for sport full stop but it was fun and enlightening to have to think on the other side. Needless to say my view on fox hunting hasn't changed


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## littleredrooster (Aug 3, 2008)

I reckon its a no win situation for all four unless they drop the debate idea, as they'll all be down in the drink long before any debate could be completed.

In the unlikely event they all participated, the losers wouldn't accept the decisions anyway as that would undermine one of the main principles of debating, which is continuing to insist that you're right even when you're wrong,or does that just apply to MPs and Bankers?

Sorry, but I see no hope for these silly guys unless they are bright enough to sort it out quickly with a bout of fisticuffs, rather than fiddling while Rome is burning.

Desperate situations call for desperate measures.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

littleredrooster said:


> I reckon its a no win situation for all four unless they drop the debate idea, as they'll all be down in the drink long before any debate could be completed.


You can't possibly know that  Hope the hang over was not too bad


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

well two in the balloon.


Spain’s problems can only be resolved by *a more socialist government*. Maybe not the best person as I am biased, I've been a socialist borderlining Marxism for many years already. The thing is that capitalism and the competitive free market economy do more harm than good. 

Employers care about only profits, and politicians are tied in their decisions because of the lobby by multinationals. The kneeling for the capitalist power creates a society of classes where the CEOs and board members form a rare elite that lives in luxury, while the majority of people struggle to get bills paid. Look at the unemployment benefits in Spain, as one example. 

The wellbeing of ALL citizens should be a priority for ANY government, rather than trying to serve the wealthy multinationals. Meanwhile, few realise those multinationals will not hesitate to fire lots of people and move away to low cost countries as soon as they realise they can save money by doing so, leaving the local population in Spain in even deeper problems. 

I opt for a socialist government where the state provides most of the jobs rather than privatisation. The state is the most stable employer as it's not gonna move away and can limit the differences in wages, thereby creating a society without strong differences in classes. I believe that competitive markets and capitalism only push the focus away from what really matters: solidarity and comfortable living circumstances for all. Employers have to struggle together for a better society for all rather than competing and putting personal gain at first place.

Spain’s problems can only be resolved by *a right wing government*. The socialists would have us believe that equality for all is the way forward but as proven many times across the world this leads to increased poverty for all. 

The 40+ million citizens of Spain share the national cake. Under socialism the cake will be small. Without incentive and reward there will be no reason to build businesses and industry; no reason to create jobs. Rich and poor will have less no matter how you cut the cake. 

For Spain to even survive let alone recover from 6 disastrous years of Mr Bean what we need first is to increase the national cake. We need to get investment to create jobs and get the economy moving.

We need to reward and encourage those who create wealth and jobs. We need to give creative people their heads to move forward without hindrance from a nanny socialist state. We need to get the unemployed working and not simply destroy their pride in themselves giving them handouts.

Of course the disadvantaged of society need to be properly cared for but the right have never faltered on this. The retired have earned their right to celebrate their final years with their families and the young are worthy of our investment. 

And with an expanding economy driven by the energies of our well educated youth the cake will indeed be much bigger and the disadvantaged and young can thus be well cared for while those who work hard will be well rewarded.

The socialists offer a lose lose scenario. The right offers a win win scenario. The choice is yours.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Question for the socialist supporter :

The United Left in Spain has always been disjointed and failed to gain support. In 2008 it gained 3.77% of the vote. If socialism is the answer why do the spanish people reject it?


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

Because, sorry for this statement, people tend to think about themselves first and unfortunately in many cases themselves only. Hence solidarity is making place for egocentrism. Does this mean the capitalist free market is better? In my opinion the high percentage of right-wing voters just proves that democracy doesn't work because too many people vote without thinking on the long term and in a big perspective. Many vote purely for what is best for them and fail to see the bigger picture. 




A question for the one who supports the right wing solution: how can you possibly claim that the right never failed to look after and take care for the weaker people in the society?

here in Spain for example the unemployment benefit (which is thanks to the socialists, otherwise it'd be a 0 €) is sometimes below 400€ a month, not even enough to pay the rent in some areas of the country. Waiting lists for healthcare are long and private hospitals are for many people out of reach financially. Insurances cover not every type of treatment neither, to such extent that some Spaniards rather travel to Latin America for cheap treatment than going to a local hospital. For social housing, the waiting list is quite long as well. And as I said, the unemployment benefit is something thanks to the socialists, without them people without a job would have no income and left with nothing but despair.

Also, take another example, USA. A country dominated by multinationals and capitalism. Capital decides everything, up to the point that even the president needs financial backing from big companies to fund his campaign, and afterwards is stuck to backing those multinationals even when the situation would require otherwise. Until Obama's reforms, healthcare in the US was amongst the worst in the industrialised world because it was a privilege rather than a basic right, only the rich could afford it. The society there is one with many social classes and the difference between the rich and the poor is huge. Meanwhile their Cuban neighbours have free healthcare for all, free education, one of the highest literacy rates in the entire Latin America, and are embargoed for nothing but void reasons but still managing relatively well.

Another example: BP. Belgian and Dutch dredger ships already offered their help but BP refused it because for works such as repairing that leak they have a fixed business partner and their contract doesn't allow outsiders' help. Ecology and the importance of society in general are put below profit and business purposes.

Do we want a society where a small elite dictates, or do we want people to be treated equally? Those who opt for the latter should realise that capitalism is a bubble that is about to burst.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

gerrit said:


> Because, sorry for this statement, people tend to think about themselves first and unfortunately in many cases themselves only. Hence solidarity is making place for egocentrism. Does this mean the capitalist free market is better? In my opinion the high percentage of right-wing voters just proves that democracy doesn't work because too many people vote without thinking on the long term and in a big perspective. Many vote purely for what is best for them and fail to see the bigger picture.


"Spaniards have always shown great maturity and great common sense when it comes to voting". Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero. 

Are you suggesting that socialism and dictatorship are happy bed fellows? By enforcing socialist ideals on people you will inhibit freedom and enterprise. Why should the thinking, even if they are as you suggest a minority, be limited by the non thinking masses?

Is it not better to give opportunity to those who want to improve themselves? Yes give equal opportunity to all but reward those who try, those who succeed.


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> "Spaniards have always shown great maturity and great common sense when it comes to voting". Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero.
> 
> Are you suggesting that socialism and dictatorship are happy bed fellows? By enforcing socialist ideals on people you will inhibit freedom and enterprise. *Why should the thinking, even if they are as you suggest a minority, be limited by the non thinking masses?*
> 
> Is it not better to give opportunity to those who want to improve themselves? Yes give equal opportunity to all but reward those who try, those who succeed.



First of all, I am talking about politics in general now, not necessarily Spain, because the situation is not really a state-specific issue. It isn't like Israel-Palestine, the Cypriot divide, the annexation of Tibet being valid or void, ... Those are very specific issues to one region, whereas being better off with a socialist/liberal/democratic/... government is more a general issue that goes for most countries.


The problem is that the capitalist system creates a society of classes. The rich are an elite living a life of luxury and having political power (even if it's behind the screens) where the masses, unlike the higher class, struggle. The inequality is the problem. Obviously a right wing government doesn't limit any socialist, but the system does go against the ideology of the socialist.

I also didn't say a dictatorship is the solution, where did I use the word? That said, I have seen in several European countries (including my native one) that democracy is not the solution, and I do think giving power to the people is a utopic thought that only works when the people know how to deal with that power. I saw in several countries, including my native one, that this doesn't work in practice, so I also don't have serious problems with enforcing a sort of one-party government. As long as it benefits society as a whole, sometimes measurements must be taken that are not popular with the people, later to realise that maybe it wasn't so bad at all. One of the core qualities a politician should have is daring to go against the populist thoughts that circulate in society.

I however don't advocate a dictatorship where the leader tells you how to dress, where to live, where you can go and where you cannot go, ... I am mainly in terms of economy very leftist. I do believe privatisation and power to the multinationals harms society more than it does good, and creates bigger differences in classes. Replace privatisation with a state-run economy so that the state can keep an eye on salaries not varying too largely, knowing on top that the state is often the most secure employer because of the unlikelihood of the state vanishing or relocating to a low-cost country (which big companies will do without thinking twice if it benefits their bank accounts)

A dictatorship in my books is a place that is unfree in general, where people are under total surveillance all the time. Restrictions on economic freedom in terms of restrictions on starting enterprises, doesn't equal dictatorships in my books.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Gerrit if this was formal balloon you would not be able to go off topic. The problem is if everyone does you end up with so diverse views no one can judge who should stay in the balloon. Nonetheless I'll do my best.

_First of all, I am talking about politics in general now, not necessarily Spain, because the situation is not really a state-specific issue. _

Well it is in Spain

_It isn't like Israel-Palestine, the Cypriot divide, the annexation of Tibet being valid or void, ... Those are very specific issues to one region, whereas being better off with a socialist/liberal/democratic/... government is more a general issue that goes for most countries._

But democratic means that the people decide. They have and they will. The only thing which will allow them to better choose is education and education costs money. And soon Spain won't have any.

Wealth is not a right but the result of hard work. People who work hard expect a return. Why shouldn't they.

_The problem is that the capitalist system creates a society of classes. _

And socialism doesn't???

_I also didn't say a dictatorship is the solution, _

But equally you didn't like the peoples choice.

I close my case. Out of the balloon you jump and leave me to save Spain and the future 

__________________________________________

Well Gerrit I think we have given a good example of the start of the process but if we had four in the balloon and a chairman who wasn't in the balloon I think it could be fun. But c'est la vie.

Must admit I find it hard representing the right when I am a left liberal if I wanted to put a label on it 

Lets give it a bit and if anyone shows interest we can do another. A balloon with less than four peple does limit the scope.

In the meantime I'll look around for another home on the net.


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> Gerrit if this was formal balloon you would not be able to go off topic. The problem is if everyone does you end up with so diverse views no one can judge who should stay in the balloon. Nonetheless I'll do my best.
> 
> _First of all, I am talking about politics in general now, not necessarily Spain, because the situation is not really a state-specific issue. _
> 
> ...


Yeah, if a real debate society is inexisting, then an online one may be not too bad at all.


Just to respond your above post: the issue is that I haven't been in Spain long enough to know the specifics to local politics, hence I took a stand in a more general way.

I do believe socialism is the way to create a classless society where education, healthcare, proper housing and comfort is available to anyone. I know that those who work hard deserve a reward, therefor I am not saying that wages should all be identical. I am however saying that
a) the difference in salaries is too high and should be limited to at least make the difference in classes minimal
b) private companies should be replaced by state-owned enterprises as the state is the most secure employer generally. A multinational cares about profits and nothing else and is often tied to all sorts of contracts. The state on the other hand for example won't fire people and outsource their work to a low cost country in Asia, plus the state is more likely to keep salary differences minimal whereas a CEO often thinks just about one thing: the $ sign.
c) if people think egocentric rather than trying to create a society where comfort, healthcare and education are available for all, then I consider that reason enough to at least temporarily replace democracy by a one-party system. Give the power to the people once they are ready for it. I would not call this a dictatorship because I believe the government should only take control of the economy, replace a capitalist/free market system by a state-run economy. As long as the state is not interfering with private matters of the citizens such as religion, (sub)culture, freedom of movement, family matters etc, then in my opinion it's not a dictatorship. If one says the term dictatorship applies even when only the economy is taken over by the state, well then I would disagree with "dictatorship" being a negative term.


That said, I am against democracy in general, full stop. In Spain, everywhere. Because I've seen in several EU nations and several nationals outside the EU (and I include my native country AND my dreamt-off countries in this list) how the existing parties just differ so much in opinions that any coalition is bound to fail at some point and that rather than all join forces for a better society for all, parties defend their own point of view and the government (a forced marriage of different ideologies) becomes unstable.

So while I disagree that a one-party state is a dictatorship per definition, I happily admit that I am against democratic elections. It just doesn't work in my opinion and creates as many if not more problems than it solves. Likewise I do think restrictions on freedom of speech (as long as there are few, otherwise there is a censorship and that is a bridge too far) are justified because a total freedom of speech opens the door to hate propaganda, racist agendas and other types of statements that make the government and society unstable.




So you're a left liberal? Well you did a good job playing devil's advocate and pretending to be a right wing  (not that I have anything against right-wingers, it's not because I disagree on their point of view that I have any personal issues with them) 

I consider myself more or less socialist-liberal myself : liberal when it comes to issues outside of economy and government forms, far left when it comes to economy and government formations. I consider myself liberal in saying that I am against dress codes, restrictions on freedom of religion, restrictions on movements, restrictions on how people behave and choose to live in their daily lives. Economically I guess I'm somewhere in the furthest left of the socialist umbrella...


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

PS if we want more people in the balloon, the lounge may be a good issue but then it would need to be debate subjects that are known internationally or that at least are well talked about globally. The Cyprus debate, the Israel-Palestine debate, the right or non-right of Iran and North Korea to have a nuclear program, do multicultural societies contribute good or negative things to a country, should the US be forced to accept the The Hague tribunal if they wish to stay in a leading position in the UN , ... 

A very active political topic is possible for sure if the subjects are chosen in a way that people spread across the globe know enough about it to engage in the debate.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Gerrit I guess we agree on far more than we disagree although I can't go along with single party politics. The whole economic thing unfortunately has gone global and even if we want change within our own countries it is very difficult to act in isolation. 

As for Spain I predict radical action and social breakdown within 5 years. And I see Catalunya as a catalyst (unless Germany closes spain down first ). Why Spaniards put up with their lives is beyond me. Well I guess some don't and skip the country but the poor without qualifications can't do that of course. And many off those that stay as you say will vote PP because their memories can't go back 8 years. An odd world.

I'm not religious but I do hope Franco is forced to look down on this mess.

If I had the time I would like to enter more general debates but sadly the little time I have I centre entirly on Spain. Beyond the BBC web pages everything I read these days is in spanish about spain. 

Well hope you find some face to face debates in Catalunya. Cheers Nigel


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## gerrit (Jul 15, 2008)

Single party politics don't mean isolation. Isolationism is the whole Juche branche of socialism. The one party system in China for example doesn't prevent them from having both diplomatic and economical/trade ties with the vast majority of the rest of the world. 

I am not pro dictatorships. I will never get along with the likes of Kim Jung-il or Lukashenko (although I'd like to meet them and have a debate with them ) ; I am of the opinion the government should interfere as little as possible with the people's private businesses. Dress codes? Restrictions on where to go or travel to? Mass censorship? Restrictions on religious choices or forcing one religion over another on people?? All leads to no good IMO (total freedom of speech neither, but restrictions should be minimal)

I consider myself a strong leftist for the reason that I put human rights and accessible care and education for all above the profit and well-doing of the strong multinationals. When it comes to cultural choices and lifestyle, there should be as few norms and restrictions as possible. When it comes to economics however, the society as a whole shoul be prioritised upon rather than letting people found own companies, compete and meanwhile only the board and CEO's truly benefit from it. That creates an elite and that is what I am very strongly against. Hence why I say the state should be the employer, while I am against a free market economy. Companies that exist already can continue under strong state supervision (as if the state outsources the work to the company but controls salaries, budgets, etc) ... and further new businesses should not be private but state-run.

This way a classless society where everyone is equal is created without (like dictators would do) limiting the people's individual freedom of how to live, how to dress, where to go, which religion to follow, ...

As long as people are too selfish and egocentric and keep voting for those parties that back private initiative and are backed themselves by the capitalist elite, sometimes you must force something on society for their own benefit. To force a socialist system but leave personal freedoms untouched is IMO not a dictatorship. Some will say I am too idealistic, but rather naive/idealistic than sour and not believing in change for the better! 

"All the world over, I will back the masses against the classes" (William Gladstone)


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