# Living in Italy but staying with a friend.



## kenaness

Hi Guys,

I have some questions as I'm still sort of confused.

I'm from the UK and want to move to Italy in the next 1-2 months and would like to know the following:

1) I MIGHT stay with a friend for 6 months. I will NOT be working, how do I get residency then? From what I know I have to provide the following:

Address (maybe no contract as I will be crashing with a friend)

Insurance (costs?)

Money In the bank (someone told me about 8200 euros)

How fast will they give me the residency and how long will it be valid for?


2) Insurance: How much does it cost, the range (for example 200 to 1000 per year for 2 pp, private or public). I have NEVER really worked in the UK so I'm not sure how if that matters to them.

3) I probably have the required money in the bank, but not an Italian bank. Is it OK to show them a bank statement from outside Italy?


4) Initially I will be going to Italy alone, but my wife will join me after a few months. She is non-EU so does it matter that I have residency alone, then she joins me later?

5) TAX. I know that you need to be filing taxes on income, which for the first while (maybe a year or two) there will be none. I will be spending from my savings etc... so does anyone know if they will "frown" upon a 31 year old not working and just living there? I'm aware I have to declare and file something, but not sure what that is.

Someone told me that they do NOT mind this as long as I show them that some money is going into an Italian bank (like 1000 euro per month) to cover my living expenses. Just wanted to ask more people.


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## Bevdeforges

If you're British, then you have full rights to stay, live and work in Italy as an EU national. There may be some additional requirements (like, health coverage or registering with the local authorities) if you're intending on staying more than 2 or 3 months.

Start here EUROPA – Living abroad for the EU rights related to freedom of movement within the EU.
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher

Here are a couple more sources of information: a U.K. government site and an Italian police site.


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## kenaness

Hey guys,

Thanks for reply.

I checked the sites and I didn't get the specific answers I was looking for.

1) would not having a tenancy contract sufficient to register at the Anagrafe or do they need a tenancy contract in my name? If i want to stay at my friends house would I be able to use their address until I get my own place?

2) Insurance cost?

3) Other questions 

Thanks.


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## Your Europe

Hi Kenaness, 

at Your Europe, we have a few more advice pages that might be interesting for you: Workers' and pensioners' residence rights, EU - Rights, advantages and restrictions for EU workers - Your Europe and Your health insurance cover. 

Good luck and happy new year!


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## kenaness

Thanks but the website still doesn't answer my questions specifically.


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## BBCWatcher

I think the Web sites answer at least most of your questions, but let's take them in order.



kenaness said:


> I'm from the UK....


We've been assuming that means you're a U.K. citizen and that the second person you're bringing is your legal opposite sex spouse. Those assumptions are important ones.



> How fast will they give me the residency and how long will it be valid for?


Their speed doesn't actually matter, so don't worry about that. Just handle your obligations on time. If you've complied, it doesn't particularly matter if they sit on your paperwork. You just stay, per your treaty right.

Your initial residence registration is good for 5 years.



> 2) Insurance: How much does it cost, the range (for example 200 to 1000 per year for 2 pp, private or public).


Shop around. We really cannot give advice here because we don't know your medical insurance requirements. You both must have at least "Schengen visa minimum" medical insurance, but most people ought to get more than that bare minimum.



> I have NEVER really worked in the UK so I'm not sure how if that matters to them.


It doesn't.



> 3) I probably have the required money in the bank, but not an Italian bank. Is it OK to show them a bank statement from outside Italy?


Yes.



> She is non-EU so does it matter that I have residency alone, then she joins me later?


It doesn't. If anything it can work a bit better that way. Note that she'll need to submit proof of marriage, preferably something EU, preferably in "international format" if offered. If you want to have an Italian consulate stamp a copy (if they're willing), that wouldn't hurt.



> ....so does anyone know if they will "frown" upon a 31 year old not working and just living there? I'm aware I have to declare and file something, but not sure what that is.


You'll be spending money in Italy, hopefully lots. Many shopkeepers will smile, we hope.

You may or may not have a "Form RW" (foreign account reporting) filing requirement, and you might have to pay Italy's small foreign wealth tax, depending on your personal situation. Presumably you'll have such filing obligations starting in early 2016 (and estimated tax payments if applicable in 2015) since you'll presumably be moving to Italy in 2015. Yes, I would investigate those requirements.

As a piece of advice on the foreign wealth tax, if you were considering closing and consolidating your and your spouse's financial accounts (especially those within the EU/EEA), that'd probably be a good thing to do before you move. Italy's foreign wealth tax is...weird.



> Someone told me that they do NOT mind this as long as I show them that some money is going into an Italian bank (like 1000 euro per month) to cover my living expenses.


That'll do. You have to demonstrate income (or the wealth equivalent) at or above the "social minimum," and I think that's a bit over 8000 euro per annum. Try not to cut it too close to cause bureaucratic concern and further inquiry. "Flash the cash and look respectable," as it were.

Alternatively (or in addition) if you can demonstrate you're self-employed and receiving a modest or better income that way, that'll do.


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## kenaness

Thanks a lot for the clarifications.

Just a quick follow up questions then.

1) The process of declaring presence (as I understand it) would be as follows:

- Show I have money

- Buy insurance valid for schengen.

- go and declare presence (no need for the house contact to be in my name, just the address I'm gonna be staying in).

2) I do'nt have a lot of money saved in EU/Swiss banks. I have some outside the EU. Would they be able to know about my accounts outside the EU? Do I need to close them if I move to Italy?

3) My friend is in a similar situation but he has a house outside the EU. Do they need to know about this if he wants to live in Italy?

Thanks and happy new year.


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## BBCWatcher

kenaness said:


> I do'nt have a lot of money saved in EU/Swiss banks. I have some outside the EU. Would they be able to know about my accounts outside the EU? Do I need to close them if I move to Italy?


You don't have to close them. As a tax resident of Italy you simply have to declare your overseas assets and pay a small wealth tax on them. All overseas real estate assets are now reportable -- even if only 1 euro in value. Some financial assets are not taxable and not reportable unless they meet particular thresholds. Refer to "Form RW" instructions and information. Above thresholds I think the current tax rate on financial assets is 0.2%.



> 3) My friend is in a similar situation but he has a house outside the EU. Do they need to know about this if he wants to live in Italy?


Yes. As a tax resident of Italy he must declare his overseas assets and pay a modest wealth tax on those assets (above applicable thresholds). On real estate he'd typically be able to subtract foreign property tax (or wealth tax) on the same real estate asset from the Italian wealth tax owed. I think the Italian tax rate on overseas real estate is 0.76%. For example, if he has real estate valued at 500,000 euro, he would owe 3,800 euro in Italian wealth tax on that property. But if he is already paying 1,000 euro in property tax on that property he is generally able to deduct that amount from his Italian tax owed, so he would owe 2,800 euro in Italy.

Failure to file a truthful and complete Form RW can result in stiff penalties starting at 5 times the tax and ranging up as high as 30% of the value of the assets you failed to report, depending on the circumstances.


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## kenaness

Thanks for the reply.

Some more questions:

1) Did I get the residence procedure right?

2) Is wealth tax and financial assets payable ONCE or every year?

Thanks.


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## BBCWatcher

kenaness said:


> 1) Did I get the residence procedure right?


You appear to have the basic idea.



> 2) Is wealth tax and financial assets payable ONCE or every year?


Neither.  If you owe wealth tax my understanding, at least if the amount is significant enough, is that you have to make estimated tax payments through the year. But please check me on that.

The percentages are applied annually. For example, unless the rate changes, that 3,800 euro of tax on a 500,000 euro value property overseas (less allowable foreign property tax) is 3,800 every year, though the 3,800 might have to be paid in installments. (That's the part I'm not sure about.)

Pay close attention to how Italy requires you to value assets, particularly real estate. It is not as simple as writing down what the foreign tax authority's assessment is, if available. And whether the property is 128% mortgaged or 0% mortgaged is irrelevant for tax purposes.

There is tax preparation assistance available in Italy, some free, more for a fee. It's a good idea to take advantage of at least the free assistance, if permitted. Check with the Centro Assistenza Fiscale (CAF) office nearest where you live. The wealth taxes I'm referring to are called IVAFE (overseas financial assets) and IVIE (overseas real estate), for reference.

I should also mention that _income_ is still also taxable: interest on your financial accounts, rental income, etc. The wealth tax is not a substitute for income tax if those assets are generating income. It's in addition. However, at low levels of total taxable income there may not be income tax owed.


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## Scotswoha

For the residency, once you go to the local anagrafe and fill out forms saying you want residency, they then send the local commune police out to check you are actually at that address and then you go back with 3 photos and get you residency card! I just went through the process in July, though I had my work contract and appartment contract.


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## kenaness

Thanks for the clarification 

How long from the time you applied till they actually came?


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## Scotswoha

It took the 3 weeks, things do not go fast here but once they cam it was a few days after I returned to anagrafe and was issued carte d identita with residency!


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## accbgb

Scotswoha said:


> For the residency, once you go to the local anagrafe and fill out forms saying you want residency, they then send the local commune police out to check you are actually at that address and then you go back with 3 photos and get you residency card! I just went through the process in July, though I had my work contract and appartment contract.


Whoa, hold on just a minute.

Residenza requires that you have a valid, registered, lease or can show ownership of an appropriate property. Appropriate? That means the living space must be of a certain minimum size, must have running water and sanitary facilities, and so on.

I have never heard of anyone being able to obtain Residenza status while simply living with a friend or relative.


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## pudd 2

accbgb said:


> Whoa, hold on just a minute.
> 
> Residenza requires that you have a valid, registered, lease or can show ownership of an appropriate property. Appropriate? That means the living space must be of a certain minimum size, must have running water and sanitary facilities, and so on.
> 
> I have never heard of anyone being able to obtain Residenza status while simply living with a friend or relative.


this is italy , rules vary from comune to comune fact or from anagrafa to anagrafa again fact


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## BBCWatcher

accbgb said:


> I have never heard of anyone being able to obtain Residenza status while simply living with a friend or relative.


I have (also).

You're suggesting a commune would block grandma from moving into the spare bedroom? I suppose any bureaucratic snafu is possible, but not many communes are going to block that unless they're seeing a developing 10-kids-to-a-bed situation.

In the "friend" case a formal lease may be required, sure. Easy enough -- a lease isn't hard -- but if the friend isn't willing to do that, that accommodation may not work.


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## accbgb

BBCWatcher said:


> You're suggesting a commune would block grandma from moving into the spare bedroom?


No, I am not.

Look, this is no different than an earlier discussion regarding Elective Residency. Residenza is not for people who are just passing through town - it implies that one has set down roots in the community with some intention of permanence. With Residenza comes the right to vote in local and regional elections; the right to place one's children in local schools, access to _local _government services and benefits and access to the _regional* _healthcare system.

Residenza requires ownership of a prima casa property (that is, the house you primarily live in, not your vacation home) a valid long-term lease, or, in special cases, a certification of legal and financial responsibility from a third party (more about this later). One cannot, for example, obtain Residenza status while living out of a suitcase in a local hotel.

Yes, grandmother can reside in my home and even apply for Residenza, but in all likelihood I will be required to sign an affidavit accepting full financial and legal responsibility for her. 

That leaves OP with two possible solutions - obtain a long-term (usually 12 months or greater) _registered_ lease from his friend or an affidavit as stated above. The lease option is only viable if the property is in fact suitable for leasing. I do not believe, for example, that one can write a lease for a bedroom plus kitchen/bath privileges. And, of course, the lease must be registered thus exposing the friend to tax liabilities and all the other liabilities associated with being a landlord.

As to the other option, well, you would have to be a pretty darned good friend (perhaps you saved my life on the battlefield) before I would be willing to accept legal and financial responsibility for your actions.



* - Regional healthcare. Contrary to popular opinion, Italy does not have national healthcare, but rather a network of regional healthcare systems all of which are required to meet minimum national standards. These regional systems vary widely in everything from the ticket price for prescription drugs (very low in all systems but not identical) and, especially, the nature, quality, and availability of aftercare services such as rehabilitation.


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## kenaness

Hey guys,

I will most likely rent from the start. I wanted to know what the situation would be if we stayed at a friend's place for a while.

Thanks for all your replies.


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## pudd 2

i have lived here ten years and yet to find any black and White answers to the above posts 
as they dont exist


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## kenaness

I heard that from a few people as well.


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## BBCWatcher

I agree, but it's fair to say there are "norms," and those have been well expressed. Sure, occasionally there may be a bureaucratic surprise, and those have been well expressed, too. Just take it in stride, and welcome to Italy.


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## kenaness

Quick question.

From what I read, I can open a non-resident bank account OR a resident one.

I am planning to go in Feb to check things out then back a few months after to finalize. Would I be able to open a non-resident account then convert it into a resident one later?


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## BBCWatcher

What's the rush?


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## kenaness

Just something less to do.


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## BBCWatcher

It doesn't sound like less to do. ("You want to do _what_? Hold on and let me talk with my supervisor...." Or, "I'm sorry, but you're not eligible to live in Italy because you cannot prove adequate income or wealth. Have fun closing that bank account you prematurely opened, too." Or, "Well, I could use that nearby ATM at 2 euro per transaction, but that's not smart. Wish I had opened an account at that other bank....")

I'd recommend a little less London pace and a little more Mediterranean pace.  Open a bank account (only if you need one!) once you have your _codice fiscale_ (Italian ID number) and once you have a residence receipt in hand. And after you've done some research to figure out where the ATMs are located, what the fees are that you can accept (and who offers the best fees), etc., etc.

In the meantime, make sure you have at least a low cost (in Italy/euro terms) ATM/debit card, and that'll be fine as/when you get started.


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## BBCWatcher

By the way, that's not to discourage you from picking up a few bank brochures (with complete fee schedules), seeing which banks have branches near where you plan to live (and/or could live), checking the locations of ATMs and whether they're convenient, observing how long the lines are at branches and ATMs (if there are lines), checking branch opening/closing hours, and so forth. In other words, you can do some "window shopping."

Keep in mind that some of the best deals when/if it comes time to open an account are online (versus opening an account at a physical branch, even with the same institution).


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