# Timber Frame Houses in PT?



## travelling-man

Can anyone comment and/or does anyone have any experience of timber frame houses in Portugal.

I'm looking for the good, the bad and the ugly so and and all comments welcome.

Also does anyone know of any Portugal based companies that make/build/offer these please? 

I don't have any experience of or link to these companies but these are the sort of things I had in mind:

frame-house.eu – Prefabricated house manufacturer 

Inwood Developments Ltd - Manufacturers of high quality components in sustainable timber 

Hope it's OK to post the links but if not, please do remove them.


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## Janina k

*Reply*

Hello Travellingman

Fred is keen on Timberframe but after i found the house we now call home he can only have a dream Timberframe house. We went to see this company when they were working in Porto and they seemed very good. I post this information in good faith as to the comments by the moderators a few days ago. We can't find any other company in Portugal but there should be it's just a case of finding them.

Krystyna 

Portugal North: Timber Engineering Europe
Regional Director: Tiago Carvalho
Telephone: +351 222452312
Mobile: +351 916 948 451
Email: [email protected] 

Portugal South: Timber Engineering Europe
Regional Director: Francis Ladden
Telephone +351 96 1101 674
Email: [email protected]

Timber Engineering Europe - Hybrid Buildings


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## travelling-man

Thanks Janina. Just the kind of info I'm looking for!


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## siobhanwf

Timber Engineering Europe - Home

Casas de Madeira, Wooden Houses, Holzhaus, Holzhäuser, Algarve, Portugal, Lagos, Sagres - Casas de Madeira, Wooden Houses, Holzhaus, Holzhäuser, Algarve, Portugal, Lagos, Sagres


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## travelling-man

Can any kind soul tell me how the planning permissions etc might be liable to work please?

The area is rural (not urban) and the property has an old cottage on it that could be renovated but I'd prefer to knock the old building that was built in the early 50s down and build either a traditional brick etc or wood frame (single storey) house elsewhere on the property.


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## canoeman

I'd suggest you visit your local engineering /planning department in the Camara your thinking of building in, with basic information, and ask you then will get a pretty good idea what they'll require and likely reaction.


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## travelling-man

Thanks..... I'll probably use an architect to help me and project manage the job if I go ahead with the purchase and will consult him before the purchase...... It's a lovely property and one of the major attractions for me is that it borders the Alva river but I'd expect the planners to have lots of special requirements with regard to pollution etc but time will tell what is and isn't possible.


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## Ingles

Have a look at some off these Suppliers

Timber House Exporters,Timber House Manufacturers,Construction Directory International B2B

In the past did extensive research on this subject for a Client & then the crisis started & the project was dropped


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## tiagofilipecarvalho

travelling-man said:


> Can anyone comment and/or does anyone have any experience of timber frame houses in Portugal.
> 
> I'm looking for the good, the bad and the ugly so and and all comments welcome.
> 
> Also does anyone know of any Portugal based companies that make/build/offer these please?
> 
> I don't have any experience of or link to these companies but these are the sort of things I had in mind:
> 
> 
> Hope it's OK to post the links but if not, please do remove them.


I can help you with your queries regarding, councils building methods////snip//////,

Best regards
Tiago


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## ADoria

I have noticed that there appears to be some confusion concerning timber frame buildings and wooden houses. There is a huge difference in these types of buildings so I would like to take this opportunity to explain the difference and the legal situation for the building of timber frame houses in Portugal.

1.	All Timber Frame buildings are structurally engineered units that can be almost any shape, size and external finish up to 7 floors high, including buildings such as hotels, schools and apartment blocks. Timber Frame comes under the heading of Modern Methods of Construction and is the globally preferred system for sustainable construction accounting for more than 75% of all low rise (under 7 floors) – new buildings worldwide. The timber frame is the structural element of the building and just like a human skeleton, it is tough and flexible and it the best form of building to use in earthquake zones because it will flex under quake conditions, unlike rigid concrete and masonry which will collapse under many conditions.
2.	Wooden houses can be anything from a cheap imported shed with no cavity or insulation to a quality traditional Log Home that will perform to very high standards. Many types of ‘wooden houses’ do not have any design guarantees and do not comply with EU or the Portuguese building codes, so would not be acceptable to the local authority.
3.	All Timber Frame buildings will comply with the Eurocodes 1 & 5 and also with the Portuguese codes & regulations “ Regulamento geral das edificações urbanas”and in Spain all timber frame buildings meet the” Código Técnico de la Edificación”. 
No Camara can refuse to grant permission for a timber frame building on the grounds that it is a wooden building therefore any relevant permissions are obtained in exactly the same way as a Portuguese traditional method of construction. 
4.	Timber Frame can also be used to a great advantage in restoration as many areas of re-building don’t require planning permission and besides the obvious benefits of very fast building time, ecological credentials and cost advantage, small tight sites are not cluttered up with heavy-side building components. It also goes without saying that all timber frame buildings meet the highest global compliance in respect of fire, storm and fungal/insect attack as well as thermal and acoustic levels.

////snip/////


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## canoeman

Quite familar with difference between a timber frame and wood house, what's the comparison on built cost timber frame v traditional, ex land cost, as they comply to “ Regulamento geral das edificações urbanas” why would planning permission not be an issue, I'd also be very interested to know where the frame is assembled as factory conditions are the ideal and source of timber


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## tiagofilipecarvalho

canoeman said:


> Quite familar with difference between a timber frame and wood house, what's the comparison on built cost timber frame v traditional, ex land cost, as they comply to “ Regulamento geral das edificações urbanas” why would planning permission not be an issue, I'd also be very interested to know where the frame is assembled as factory conditions are the ideal and source of timber


Hi Canoeman 

the source of timber is mainly from nordic countries, there are also suppliers from other regions but it is difficult to ascertain where and in what conditions they are supplied, check for certificate of origin. factory location the one I have worked with is in Britain, Manchester area, and a qualified team comes to Portugal to erect it, as legislation goes the regulamento geral das edificações urbanas is no longer the document that establishes the requirements to apply or be exempt from planning permission, most of our buildings up the 60's and some of the 70's have timber structures and they are legal, only reason for concrete to be so popular as to do with the fact that we have industry that produces cement, also that most of contractors are actually stone masons, brick layers, etc.. all related to concrete building methods, obviously if you ask them what is the better way of building they will reply concrete based systems, even more so because they have all the equipment and crews needed, and last but not least cost, It will all come down to what are you comparing, to give you an example if I am to compare to cars for price I am supposedly comparing to similar cars in terms of performance and size, same thing with building if we are comparing to solutions for the same building with similar performance and size, prices here in portugal should be as guidance 750€/Sqm for concrete based construction including insulation to achieve the same levels as in timber frame buildings that have a median cost of 550€/Sqm, however it is common to compare the timber frame solution with higher performance with concrete based building methods with inferior performance and still the cost is around 650€/Sqm .

Another positive aspect to timber frame is the fact that it is the preferred method for self-builders.

<snip>

Best regards
Tiago


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## canoeman

I'm aware of benefits or non benefits of both systems, so I was asking about a ball park figure for like to like property, to get a straight financial comparison, slightly amazed at prices your quoting as product and team has to come in from UK to erect, the latest figures I have for timber frame in UK is around £900-£1200 m2

Re planning permission I don't understand what you mean when you say the "regulamento geral das edificações urbanas" no longer applies, I understood from your first post that this regulation meant planning couldn't be refused and permission should be relatively straight forward, is this not the case then?

I do think that is totally wrong to include a sentence like this, as it gives a very false impression for Portugal where self-build is a virtual impossibility

" Another positive aspect to timber frame is the fact that it is the preferred method for self-builders."


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## canoeman

Not surprised but a shame as I would have liked an answer to some of the information they posted


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## canoeman

Shame you don't have time to answer basic questions or to offer an explanation as to why your build cost is so much less for a product made, erected and supplied from UK, I take your point that there are Portuguese tradespeople who can install base and "finish" the build but that doesn't add up to the vast difference between your price and current UK prices.

If you live in the real world then you shouldn't imply that self build is a possibility in Portugal.

Simple question you appeared to say that planning permission couldn't be refused because of "regulamento geral das edificações urbanas" then said this no longer applies, so does a wood framed house raise any issues or problems with planning permission as opposed to a traditional build?


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## thewoodbug

A colleague has drawn my attention to this thread on the forum and I am compelled to respond to some of the contents and observations concerning timber frame. Clearly I must avoid any advertising or any form of promotion so as not to break the rules of the forum, but I will say that I have been involved in the industry for many years and completed many projects in Europe.

I am rather concerned about Canoemans rather aggressive attitude to others who have contributed information in response to questions posted by others. I would take the opportunity to inform Canoeman that the price level for timber frame construction he claims of 900 – 1200 per m2 is way out!

Continuing developments in modern methods of construction make it possible to abandon many of the old methods which are material and labour intensive, thereby reducing the overall build price. It is always dangerous to quote m2 prices for any type of building route as in many cases the m2 of a building is only fresh air and the difference in the component costs can be huge. 

The quality of finish must also be taken into consideration for example if the specification for the exterior walls was a timber cladding, this could range from 5.00m2 to 45.00 m2, or if a modern plinth system was to replace the old-fashioned foundation a considerable saving can be made on the overall m2 cost. If you must continue to consider build costs in m2 values rather than actual elemental costs then 550-650m2 would be a reasonable budget price for most types of off-site manufacture buildings in Portugal.

Today, a client would have many options to consider and can in many cases dictate their own budget. Costs & quotes are always broken down into elements so that a client can opt for a less expensive solution in order to reach the target budget, unlike traditional building methods where this is not possible.

Perhaps Canoeman should read the posts carefully before making, in my view his rather rude comments. He seems very aggravated by the reference to self-building although the contents of the post in which this topic is mentioned is written in generic terms to simply explain the merit of timber frame and does not mention Portugal and for that reason his comments should be disregarded. 

I too have difficulty trying to understand this gentleman’s question regarding planning matters and perhaps if he would kindly request the information he is seeking in a clear concise post, I am sure a response would be forthcoming.

I note that canoeman has achieved 2,300+ posts on this forum, but this should not give him the right to bully new members or indeed be so rude to them with his unnecessary comments and I ask him therefore to be a little more tolerant and respectful to others.


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## canoeman

I'm not bullying as you suggest I'm seeking clarification on statements made by recent posters, none of which is forthcoming.

Prices quoted for UK are current for 2013

It's surprising that every time this method of building comes up there's lots of information bandied about but little actual fact about timber frame construction in Portugal and ease or difficulty in obtaing planning permission 

Aggravated by self build comments no, surprised yes whether it's a generic term or not, as Portuguese Planning building laws don't allow self build, which is something people not familiar with Portugal should be clear about, and this is a Portuguese forum.


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## tiagofilipecarvalho

canoeman said:


> I'm not bullying as you suggest I'm seeking clarification on statements made by recent posters, none of which is forthcoming.
> 
> Prices quoted for UK are current for 2013
> 
> It's surprising that every time this method of building comes up there's lots of information bandied about but little actual fact about timber frame construction in Portugal and ease or difficulty in obtaing planning permission
> 
> Aggravated by self build comments no, surprised yes whether it's a generic term or not, as Portuguese Planning building laws don't allow self build, which is something people not familiar with Portugal should be clear about, and this is a Portuguese forum.


good morning all

this a direct answer to your last question Canoeman. The difficult for obtaining a planning permission to build in timber frame or any other method is the same, not easier or more difficult. 

Best regards


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## oronero

thewoodbug said:


> Continuing developments in modern methods of construction make it possible to abandon many of the old methods which are material and labour intensive, thereby reducing the overall build price. It is always dangerous to quote m2 prices for any type of building route as in many cases the m2 of a building is only fresh air and the difference in the component costs can be huge.
> 
> The quality of finish must also be taken into consideration for example if the specification for the exterior walls was a timber cladding, this could range from 5.00m2 to 45.00 m2, or if a modern plinth system was to replace the old-fashioned foundation a considerable saving can be made on the overall m2 cost. If you must continue to consider build costs in m2 values rather than actual elemental costs then 550-650m2 would be a reasonable budget price for most types of off-site manufacture buildings in Portugal.
> 
> .


I believe that Portuguese builders, who work with more traditional materials, quote their prices in m2, so to compare the differences in costing between the two types of construction it would also have to be given in m2 to have any comparative meaning.

Likewise with the brick and concrete construction, much of the m2 of the building is 'fresh air' also.


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## Guest

Quoting build cost in m2 of floor is running fictitious numbers as the ratio of floor area to wall area varies with the size of the building. Generally a bigger building, of the same construction, will have lower cost per m2. If you take a look at woodframed buildings from some website and divide the total cost by the floor area you'll see this, but take one example then treat it as fact makes it all so very missleading. You can only compare like with like as in a 100m2 one story with a 100m2 one story.


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## oronero

castros_bro said:


> Quoting build cost in m2 is running fictitious numbers as the ratio of floor area to wall area varies with the size of the building. Generally a bigger building, of the sam construction, will have lower cost per m2. If you take a look at woodframed buildings from some website and divide the total cost by the floor area you'll see this, but take one example then treat it as fact which makes it all so very missleading.


Likewise using the same principle for brick and concrete buildings. 

So how else do you suggest one should compare the prices on a 'like for like' design, the ratio difference would still be the same?


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## Guest

Yes. Simple; use facts the same way contractors quote for a build, using a build spec and total cost.




oronero said:


> Likewise using the same principle for brick and concrete buildings.
> 
> So how else do you suggest one should compare the prices on a 'like for like' design, the ratio difference would still be the same?


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## oronero

castros_bro said:


> Yes. Simple; use facts the same way contractors quote for a build, using a build spec and total cost.


Okay, so it seems that we agree in principle. :clap2:

Now most conventional builders (brick and concrete) will give a price that falls into the region of between X and Y based on m2.

Why cannot the timber frame builders do the same? 

It's not rocket science! :boxing:


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## tiagofilipecarvalho

oronero said:


> Okay, so it seems that we agree in principle. :clap2:
> 
> Now most conventional builders (brick and concrete) will give a price that falls into the region of between X and Y based on m2.
> 
> Why cannot the timber frame builders do the same?
> 
> It's not rocket science! :boxing:


That is what it was expressed but some how people are doubting it.


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## oronero

canoeman said:


> I'm aware of benefits or non benefits of both systems, so I was asking about a ball park figure for like to like property, to get a straight financial comparison, slightly amazed at prices your quoting as product and team has to come in from UK to erect, the latest figures I have for timber frame in UK is around £900-£1200 m2


Remember that pricing for the UK market could well be calculated on what they feel that they can get away with in a certain market. The UK is deemed an affluent region (Treasure Island) thus the population can be 'fleeced' much closer to the skin then elsewhere. 

Perhaps this is why the cost for the same product in Portugal is lower as the price set is based on what the population or market can afford there.


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## canoeman

Don't think so, housing/building market in the doldrums in both countries and in UK fiercely competitive, as I'm apparently the one doubting figures then I don't see how a unit manufactured in the UK transported to Portugal erected by a UK team but not finished come in at a price significantly lower than UK quoted m2 costs


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## Guest

*comparison*

Try someone like "scotframe" for timber frame price + (local or other) quote for erection vs quote from local builder using "conventional" methods for a similar spec (size, layout, insulation etc.).


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## thewoodbug

The problem with quoting for building works like for like is that it is impossible unless you have a prepared bill of quantities to work from and in 99.9% of cases they are always issued with traditional materials for take offs. It is very rare that we get a bill of quants with a timber frame specification, so we have to translate the information from traditional materials to MMC. The whole process is part of supplying and erecting a building to look and perform exactly as expected and as there is no information on traditional architects drawings or in the bills provided, it’s up to us to decide the best methods and combination of materials for the client. It is a very complex subject and a great deal of communication and work goes into such a project to deliver the building to a highly engineered level that will meet the national Spanish/Portuguese/French building regulations and the Eurocodes that apply throughout the EU.

Asking the question ‘How much is timber frame per m2’ is like asking ‘How much is a car’?
There are many types of Timber Frame Structural Packages available and several different types of timber frame systems, such as Structual Insulated Panel Systems (SIPS). Post and Beam Systems and of course Open Panel Systems along with Hybrid Systems that do not meet any classification and most of which would not get past the planning stage. All these systems vary enormously on costs so again, an m2 comparison would not make any sense.
As far as planning is concerned if a building meets a specification and has the design credentials such as structural calculations and engineers drawings backed by a PI and/or Warranty in EU then planners may not refuse building consent on the grounds that they don’t like it. Of course they can refuse permission on any other prescribed grounds, exactly as they can with traditional methods, as is consistent with their public duty.

In respect of self-building in Portugal, I do believe that it can be achieved as it is every persons historic right to provide their own shelter and roof - perhaps the concrete and steel method is too difficult for a self-build project, but as timber frame is fairly simple once past the design stage, it is perfect for self-builders simply because it is a complete structural package erected and the self-builder only has to provide ‘cover and cosmetic’ with any electrical, gas and plumbing works undertaken by qualified local tradesmen who can certify the work. Now, please, before you attack me and insist that self-build is not possible in Portugal give me a little time as I have put the feelers out to others in the industry in order to seek clarification and we can then collate the information and post it.

In closing, and I do apologise for the length of this contribution, to confirm our claim that TF houses are built for under 650 sterling per m2, our next job is due to start in 3 weeks and the total cost is under 600 UK Pounds per m2. Although this site is in the south of Galicia, any site inspection is welcome.

Regards to all Thewoodbug


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## canoeman

Would it not have been better to check Portugal's building regulations before making a statement about self build? what is possible in one country is not necessarily possible in another


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## Ingles

Oh ! he doe's go on.
Can never think out side the box 

Any Builder with a *"Alvará" *could/can be approached & an agreement reached where as he would head the Job with the property owner working for him.
The owner would need help anyway as nobody could do this alone !


Elecricity & Water/ Gas + PT Lines have to be fitted by registered craftsmen. 
The Builder wil already have contacts for Elec - Water - Gas

Wheres the big problem


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## Guest

Yes, sometimes it appears to be ******** Forum rather than Expat Forum.

There's no big problem but anyone who does their own work under the "supervision" of a builder is not going to go spouting off about it on this forum.


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## canoeman

I'm very happy to think outside of boxes, yes any builder could be approached, but that is a very different thing to a statement saying self build is a possibility, what your advocating isn't self build and fraught with problems


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## travelling-man

Personally, I wouldn't consider doing a self build but I MIGHT (note the big MIGHT) consider a timber frame house erected by the manufacturers or a local builder....... However, it'd have to be a significantly less expensive option to a traditionally built house and prices in the region of E650 per square metre aren't significantly cheaper. 

My thanks to everyone for the constructive comments.


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## Ingles

He He :juggle:

Please be as kind ,as & when you have time that is what you meant by 

""fraught with problems""


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## canoeman

Reverted to silly captions again, if you really can't see where the problems are or could be by approaching a builder to "borrow" a licence at the end of the day anyone having a build done in Portugal needs to be confident that everything is above board and they would get the various Licences and paperwork required so their property is legal.


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## Ingles

canoeman said:


> Reverted to silly captions again, if you really can't see where the problems are or could be by approaching a builder to "borrow" a licence at the end of the day anyone having a build done in Portugal needs to be confident that everything is above board and they would get the various Licences and paperwork required so their property is legal.


I respectfully request that in all good faith you should READ yet again my post & then apologize 

Nowhere was "borrow" mentioned OK


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## thewoodbug

canoeman said:


> Would it not have been better to check Portugal's building regulations before making a statement about self build? what is possible in one country is not necessarily possible in another


Please Canoeman - read my last post properly! I don't need to check PT's Building Regulations as we work with several colleagues who are native professionals and who know the rules backwards. Self-building per se, really doesn't exist in any country - very few of us have the skills to build a house compliant with the rule books on our own. We use the term 'self managed' for all 'self-build' projects.

I am consulting with my colleagues to collate legal methods of license acquisition, provision of the accepted insurances that will allow a self-managed project to be acceptable in Portugal and as previously indicated, I will post the outcome asap.

I have tried to explain to you in 2 previous posts and answer your allegations, but you appear to be determined to challenge everything that is posted. Please be patient - the information will be forthcoming as soon as we are 100% sure of our facts possibly on new building routes that have yet to be discovered..................


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## santaanita

just like to say i have met two timber frame manufacturers who after coming my area left unable to get any permissions from the camara,both retreated back to spain.


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## canoeman

thewoodbug said:


> Please Canoeman - read my last post properly! I don't need to check PT's Building Regulations as we work with several colleagues who are native professionals and who know the rules backwards. Self-building per se, really doesn't exist in any country - very few of us have the skills to build a house compliant with the rule books on our own. We use the term 'self managed' for all 'self-build' projects.
> 
> I am consulting with my colleagues to collate legal methods of license acquisition, provision of the accepted insurances that will allow a self-managed project to be acceptable in Portugal and as previously indicated, I will post the outcome asap.
> 
> I have tried to explain to you in 2 previous posts and answer your allegations, but you appear to be determined to challenge everything that is posted. Please be patient - the information will be forthcoming as soon as we are 100% sure of our facts possibly on new building routes that have yet to be discovered..................


I did read your post properly, which is why I suggested you check before posting seems that you are now retracting your previous statement,

_"In respect of self-building in Portugal, I do believe that it can be achieved as it is every persons historic right to provide their own shelter and roof - perhaps the concrete and steel method is too difficult for a self-build project, but as timber frame is fairly simple once past the design stage, it is perfect for self-builders simply because it is a complete structural package erected and the self-builder only has to provide ‘cover and cosmetic’ with any electrical, gas and plumbing works undertaken by qualified local tradesmen who can certify the work"_


allegations? questioned the information you and your colleague? have posted, challenged yes when there's such a disparity in costs


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## loonytoon

i can't imagine any builder letting you make use of his Alvara (whether you want to call it 'borrowing or not') for free - after all he has costs to pay associated with his Alvara. as the quoted prices are not radically dissimilar, add this cost to the 'self build' (or self manage) and does the cost not then become similar to just having it built by the manufacturer/builder? the next obvious problem is what happens if/when you fall out with your builder and he retracts the use of his Alvara or he goes bust so loses it? what price would you have to pay to get another builder to take over the responsibility for the build which is, after all, the reason for the Alvara in the first place?

apart from cost, i would suggest that anyone building a house would probably choose the materials they use based on personal reasons rather than just the price. i would choose the material to suit my needs at the time (which have varied over my life and will no doubt continue to vary). i think i would be naive to presume that a timber frame would end up cheaper than a 'conventional' build but then i might choose the timber frame as i feel it is ecologically a better choice. 

rather than quibbling about the price of something that cannot be quantified until the design is finalised, decide what materials you want to use then you can get a price that will actually have some meaning. in the greater scheme of things it wouldn't be grossly over the top to get your architect to cost both TF and conventional then you can make your choice but only when you have the final spec available.

jeff
jeff


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## Ingles

Ingles said:


> Oh ! he doe's go on.
> Can never think out side the box
> 
> Any Builder with a *"Alvará" could/can be approached & an agreement reached where as he would head the Job with the property owner working for him.The owner would need help anyway as nobody could do this alone !
> 
> Elecricity & Water/ Gas + PT Lines have to be fitted by registered craftsmen.
> The Builder wil already have contacts for Elec - Water - Gas
> 
> Wheres the big problem *


*

As usual when one questions a certain poster's "comments" they go to ground or get aggressive.
Well at least this time they have just gone to ground :noidea:

I reply to a later poster .
There are several cases off the Builder going under after being paid a stage payment reported every year, if you work "for" the builder as I suggested at least you may get some good idea if a problem is arising and be able to take the necessary steps*


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## canoeman

Not at all been out, apology in your dreams, how an earth can you "work" for builder without being "legally" employed, it just raises more and more potential problems and costs for anyone who followed your advice.


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## Guest

I "work" for builders and have "worked" for many others in the past but am not employed by any of them. This is a normal for both domestic and commercial building where most trades are subcontractors. Maybe if you worked on a site you'd know.



canoeman said:


> Not at all been out, apology in your dreams, how an earth can you "work" for builder without being "legally" employed, it just raises more and more potential problems and costs for anyone who followed your advice.


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## Ingles

canoeman said:


> Not at all been out, apology in your dreams, how an earth can you "work" for builder without being "legally" employed, it just raises more and more potential problems and costs for anyone who followed your advice.


I have no more to say other than :clap2::clap2:

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/po...267-building-self-build-wooden-home-land.html


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## oronero

Okay, I have been following this thread with interest.

It seems that if you wish to self-build your own home in Portugal, you need to have a builders licence before you can get the project licence to commence work.

Only builders that have the right equipment and insurance are given builders licences in Portugal. You cannot self-build something which requires planning if you do not have a licence.

You can employ a licenced builder to oversee your project and work for him to potentially get around this, though in honesty why would you and why should the builder do this if ultimately something goes wrong later? If you do something which is not right on your self-build it is the builder, whose licence that you built under, who is responsible...so again what benefit does he get from this?

It is not 100% guaranteed that permission will be given for timber framed houses, according to the thread mentioned in the previous post (2009), due to a number of reasons such as fire risk in certain regional areas.

There does seem to be an attitude from some, who may have a vested interest in this subject, to state things in a simplistic manner. Some of the statements are no more than 'heresay' and without the correct authority should be taken with a 'pinch of salt'.

I note that there are a number of posters who are making/adding fuel to this thread who are from Spain, the land of dubious legal building practices and administration.

Take care out there people, there are some who are just after your money and don't 'give a hoot' about you!


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## oronero

I thought sharks only existed in water.


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## Ingles

oronero said:


> Okay, I have been following this thread with interest.
> 
> It seems that if you wish to self-build your own home in Portugal, you need to have a builders licence before you can get the project licence to commence work.
> 
> Only builders that have the right equipment and insurance are given builders licences in Portugal. You cannot self-build something which requires planning if you do not have a licence.
> 
> You can employ a licenced builder to oversee your project and work for him to potentially get around this, though in honesty why would you and why should the builder do this if ultimately something goes wrong later? If you do something which is not right on your self-build it is the builder, whose licence that you built under, who is responsible...so again what benefit does he get from this?
> 
> It is not 100% guaranteed that permission will be given for timber framed houses, according to the thread mentioned in the previous post (2009), due to a number of reasons such as fire risk in certain regional areas.
> 
> There does seem to be an attitude from some, who may have a vested interest in this subject, to state things in a simplistic manner. Some of the statements are no more than 'heresay' and without the correct authority should be taken with a 'pinch of salt'.
> 
> I note that there are a number of posters who are making/adding fuel to this thread who are from Spain, the land of dubious legal building practices and administration.
> 
> Take care out there people, there are some who are just after your money and don't 'give a hoot' about you!


I can assure you that I have NO vested interest or will ever have.
Other than in the past I was involed in searching for a Wooden House for a possiable Client & during this I checked into the reg's as they stood.
The client backed out when the market fell 
The reg's have NOW changed !
And it is easier to get PP


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## Janina k

*Reply*

Hello

While we still lived in the UK we visited 5 Timberframe company's who all could provide a package for our move to Portugal. Timberengineeringeurope was the company of choice. The reason being was that we where encouraged to ask questions, walk around and vist the factory and they gave use a number to call o one of there staff. 

The price was for the house and they would arrange through there agent in Porto for the works to be completed.. We also had a quote for the same house by a local builder but built with loads of concrete and insolution seemed to be something that was alien to how this builder wanted to work. None of the traditional builders we where happy with. But Krystyna saw a house that she fell in love with and that was the end of years of research into timberframe and having our own home built.

Good luck to you all.

Fred


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## oronero

Ingles said:


> I can assure you that I have NO vested interest or will ever have.
> Other than in the past I was involed in searching for a Wooden House for a possiable Client & during this I checked into the reg's as they stood.
> The client backed out when the market fell
> The reg's have NOW changed !
> And it is easier to get PP


With the aim of making things easier for others, when they do a search on the threads for information, where is the appropriate place to look up current 'Authorative' information for self- build and building regulations?

Links to where somebody should look will ease their passage through this minefield.

I am glad to hear that Portugal has made it easier for self-builds.

Time moves on, the world changes and people adapt, it is good that Portugal also tries to keep up with the changes and current thinking.


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## Guest

*Authoritative ?*

Authoritative ? 

Sorry I,m Spanish so my English is sometimes confused with Latin.



oronero said:


> With the aim of making things easier for others, when they do a search on the threads for information, where is the appropriate place to look up current *'Authorative' *information for self- build and building regulations?
> 
> Links to where somebody should look will ease their passage through this minefield.
> 
> I am glad to hear that Portugal has made it easier for self-builds.
> 
> Time moves on, the world changes and people adapt, it is good that Portugal also tries to keep up with the changes and current thinking.


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## oronero

castros_bro said:


> Authoritative ?
> 
> Sorry I,m Spanish so my English is sometimes confused with Latin.


'Authoritative' as in meaning, where is this permission to self-build given, what piece of local or national legislation allows this?

When I studied Law at University, we had to state where the authority came from for a ruling to be applied in a certain manner. The most recent authority would be the one that took precedence over earlier rulings. To state the law without referring to precedence was worthless in our assignments.

I believe stating that you believed it was okay to 'self-build' , as you had read it on an internet forum would not be adequate should there be legal problems later. 

So somebody kindly direct this thread to a valid and legal link that positively permits 'self-build' within Portugal that has legal legislation as a foundation...otherwise it is 'heresay' and speculation, not valid.


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## Guest

So you mean 'Authoritative' not 'Authorative' ?




oronero said:


> 'Authoritative' as in meaning, where is this permission to self-build given, what piece of local or national legislation allows this?
> 
> When I studied Law at University, we had to state where the authority came from for a ruling to be applied in a certain manner. The most recent authority would be the one that took precedence over earlier rulings. To state the law without referring to precedence was worthless in our assignments.
> 
> I believe stating that you believed it was okay to 'self-build' , as you had read it on an internet forum would not be adequate should there be legal problems later.
> 
> So somebody kindly direct this thread to a valid and legal link that positively permits 'self-build' within Portugal that has legal legislation as a foundation...otherwise it is 'heresay' and speculation, not valid.


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## oronero

Okay I made a spelling mistake. 

Petty 'nit-picking' is pointless.

How about putting real information down that is of benefit to others.

////snip////


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## canoeman

There is no Law that I'm aware off that allow/s "self build" and the Laws relate to the granting of the Construction Licence 
Artigo 21 Decrito-Lei 445/91, 250/94 there might have been more recent amendments but these I believe current legislation

This is the body that grants Builders Licences and if you read FAQ it answers in reverse some of the points being made, type of licence, employing people, lending/borrowing licences
Perguntas e Respostas - Inspecção


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## siobhanwf

Despite where you are from or what profession you are in the rules in Portugal shift and change almost on a daily basis..

As Oronero says "It is not 100% guaranteed that permission will be given for timber framed houses, according to the thread mentioned in the previous post (2009), due to a number of reasons such as fire risk in certain regional areas"
I know of two Timber Build projects locally which have be turned down by the local camera. 

Unless you are LIVING and currently working here in Portugal it is exctremly difficult to keep up with the often daily changes of the rules.


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## loonytoon

to say nothing of the interpretation of those rules which complicates the matter even further

jeff


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## Ingles

[*QUOTE=canoeman;1080189] 1 :-There is no Law that I'm aware off that allow/s "self build" *and the Laws relate to the granting of the Construction Licence 
Artigo 21 Decrito-Lei 445/91, 250/94 there might have been more recent amendments but these I believe current legislation

This is the body that grants Builders Licences and if you read FAQ it answers in reverse some of the points being made, type of licence, employing people, *2 :-lending/borrowing licences* Perguntas e Respostas - Inspecção[/QUOTE]

1 :- No body has ever wrote there was !
2 :- And nobody has suggeted "lending/borrowing" Licences
As usual you have to try to muddy the waters to suit your own ends


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## siobhanwf

loonytoon said:


> to say nothing of the interpretation of those rules which complicates the matter even further
> 
> jeff



 and you can get three different answers from 3 different people in the same office!!!!


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## canoeman

Ingles said:


> [*QUOTE=canoeman;1080189] 1 :-There is no Law that I'm aware off that allow/s "self build" *and the Laws relate to the granting of the Construction Licence
> Artigo 21 Decrito-Lei 445/91, 250/94 there might have been more recent amendments but these I believe current legislation
> 
> This is the body that grants Builders Licences and if you read FAQ it answers in reverse some of the points being made, type of licence, employing people, *2 :-lending/borrowing licences* Perguntas e Respostas - Inspecção


1 :- No body has ever wrote there was !
2 :- And nobody has suggeted "lending/borrowing" Licences
As usual you have to try to muddy the waters to suit your own ends[/QUOTE]

*Clarifying* as much as possible, as what your proposing 

"Any Builder with a "Alvará" could/can be approached & an agreement reached where as he would head the Job with the property owner working for him."

crosses many boundaries and amounts to lending or borrowing of a licence, my ends are to make sure potential expats know the facts so they can make rational and correct decisions for themselves.


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## Ingles

canoeman said:


> 1 :- No body has ever wrote there was !
> 2 :- And nobody has suggeted "lending/borrowing" Licences
> As usual you have to try to muddy the waters to suit your own ends


*Clarifying* as much as possible, as what your proposing 

"Any Builder with a "Alvará" could/can be approached & an agreement reached *where as he would head the Job* with the property owner working for him."

crosses many boundaries and amounts to lending or borrowing of a licence, my ends are to make sure potential expats know the facts so they can make rational and correct decisions for themselves.[/QUOTE]

No body can really be that thick that they can not understand the above  !!!!

This is my last post on this subject due to your atitude & they fact as far as I & others are concerned nothing in the above statement is ilegal or improper
But i'm sure you will have the last word as usual 
Bye bye


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## Ingles

should read "neither Ilegal or improper"


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## oronero

Ingles said:


> *Clarifying* as much as possible, as what your proposing
> 
> "Any Builder with a "Alvará" could/can be approached & an agreement reached *where as he would head the Job* with the property owner working for him."
> 
> crosses many boundaries and amounts to lending or borrowing of a licence, my ends are to make sure potential expats know the facts so they can make rational and correct decisions for themselves.





Ingles said:


> No body can really be that thick that they can not understand the above  !!!!
> 
> This is my last post on this subject due to your atitude & they fact as far as I & others are concerned nothing in the above statement is ilegal or improper
> But i'm sure you will have the last word as usual
> Bye bye


I suppose a lot of this misunderstanding stems from what people consider 'self build' actually means.

Some may feel that it is to the act of choosing what you want and telling somebody to do it on your behalf. I suppose following your design brief and you possibly project managing the overall build.

Others may feel that self build means exactly what it says, that you physically build the house with no outside help. 

A self-build house, in my understanding, is having nobody else on site other than those that you legally have to for gas and electrical work. The stacker of bricks, pouring of concrete and the hitting of nails are the actual self build element that you would undertake on your own, possibly with the help of somebody for the heavy parts.

In Portugal it seems that to have a project licence you need a builders licence. So unless you are a builder by trade, ie legal, than all you would be is a glorified Builder's 'lacky'!

I like the first definition of 'lacky' which can be found here Urban Dictionary: Lacky


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