# Lockdown in Spain. Your experiences



## andyviola

Spanish reaction to 15 days lockdown. Car horns and garden fireworks.
I'm speechless.....


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## Pesky Wesky

andyviola said:


> Spanish reaction to 15 days lockdown. Car horns and garden fireworks.
> I'm speechless.....


 ¿¿??
Maybe that was to show support for the Health Service workers. I know some people set off fireworks in Bilbao, but as a sign of appreciation...


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## andyviola

Hooting was 11am today and fireworks 9pm tonight. Think thing you mentioned was 10pm last night.

Not having a moan about horns and fireworks per se but i hope they realise gravity of situation and not doing large parties .. or it will spread quickly.


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## MataMata

There was a call for a show of support for health and other support workers who were soldiering on through the crisis and the suggested form was that folk took to their balconies or gardens and applauded, that was supposed to take place at 9pm.

Knowing tbe proclivity fot the Spanish to let off fireworks at the slightest conceivable opportunity it's not much of a stretch to imagine some took that as one.


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## andyviola

Thanks. I. Incredibly concerned as we were unable to get public health care (yet) and so i don't even know if we use the emergency health care if worst happens????
Of course we have private health care but i have no clue if this covers emergency medical care?


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## kalohi

Yes, private health care covers emergency health cover - at a private health facility. 

But if you suspect you might have caught coronavirus you're not to go to any health facililty at all, but to phone a special hotline number. Each area of Spain has set up its own number. Since I don't know where you are I can't help you find the number for your area.


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## Pesky Wesky

andyviola said:


> Hooting was 11am today and fireworks 9pm tonight. Think thing you mentioned was 10pm last night.
> 
> Not having a moan about horns and fireworks per se but i hope they realise gravity of situation and not doing large parties .. or it will spread quickly.



I wouldn't worry about it, as long as _you_ are doing the right thing then it shouldn't affect you. Most people are finding this hard, but they are adapting to the measures. How weird is it to be in a queue in Spain with at least a metre between each person when usually you're fighting for your personal space? Well, for the most part people have started doing it. 

Yesterday, Sunday they weren't going to fine people, just warn them that they should go home, but in the end, if people were difficult about it, some fines were given out.


If you have symptoms. you should call 112 where they can attend to you in English. No one is going to deny you medical attention, but you may have to pay for it. If you are worried maybe you could contact your insurance company directly?



Do you know the situations in which you are allowed/ not allowed to go out for?


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## kalohi

And about the car horns and fireworks - around here at 8 pm last night there was a show of support for healthcare workers. People stood on their balconies and clapped and cheered. There were no car horns in my area, but somebody did set off 'garden fireworks'. That happened exactly at 8 so I have no doubt it was done in support of healthcare workers.


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## andyviola

Calafell in Catalonia. Let me know number please. Very kind.

Omg our nearest private health proper medical facility is 50km away in Barcelona and doubt i will be fit enough to drive there if really bad so how to get there? Really confused. I doubt they even have ventilators at this "polyclinica"


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## Pesky Wesky

Have just found this -phone numbers to consult for corona virus information

Consulte en este listado los números de teléfono que las comunidades autónomas han habilitado para informar sobre el coronavirus:
Andalucía 955545060 Aragón 061 

Asturias 112 

Baleares 061 

Canarias 900112061 

Cantabria 900 612 112 

Castilla y León 900222000 

Castilla-La Mancha 900122112 

Cataluña 061 

Comunidad Valenciana 900 300 555 

Extremadura 112 

Galicia 900400116 

Madrid 900102112 

Murcia 900121212 

Navarra 948 290 290 

País Vasco 900203050 

La Rioja 941298333 

Melilla 112 

Ceuta 900720692


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## andyviola

Thanks Pesky i hope they have some English operators. My wife has basic conversation in Spanish but she gets really nervous on the phone and kinda loses it.

I feel like our Spanish adventure is unravelling as I really hoped to get free health care with residency acheived but local "GP" insisted on social security number and for this we need a job and cant find one!


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## kalohi

andyviola said:


> Calafell in Catalonia. Let me know number please. Very kind.
> 
> Omg our nearest private health proper medical facility is 50km away in Barcelona and doubt i will be fit enough to drive there if really bad so how to get there? Really confused. I doubt they even have ventilators at this "polyclinica"


In Catalonia the number is 112 or 061. 

You could look on the webpage of your health insurance company to see where the nearest hospital is that you're covered by. 

In case of severe emergency the Spanish national health service will always treat you if necessary.


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## Pesky Wesky

andyviola said:


> Calafell in Catalonia. Let me know number please. Very kind.
> 
> Omg our nearest private health proper medical facility is 50km away in Barcelona and doubt i will be fit enough to drive there if really bad so how to get there? Really confused. I doubt they even have ventilators at this "polyclinica"


I know it's easy to say, but try not to worry. It is a scary scenario, but it is what it is. Measures are in place and soon they will kick in and numbers will start dropping. Think about what you can do during this time, not what you can't do. Read, Skype, even write letters! Cook, draw, go on line and learn some more Spanish

Everyone chucks stats at you, but try this one. Most people, the great majority go through this with no symptoms or light symptoms. Not everyone ends up in hospital and most do not.


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## kalohi

andyviola said:


> Thanks Pesky i hope they have some English operators. My wife has basic conversation in Spanish but she gets really nervous on the phone and kinda loses it.
> 
> I feel like our Spanish adventure is unravelling as I really hoped to get free health care with residency acheived but local "GP" insisted on social security number and for this we need a job and cant find one!


Life is unravelling for everyone at this point.


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## andyviola

Thanks Pesky I do hope so as I feel it will be a nightmare logistically and financially if we need specialist help. I am pessimist which is not ideal in this scenario 🤣🤣🤣


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## Pesky Wesky

andyviola said:


> Thanks Pesky i hope they have some English operators. My wife has basic conversation in Spanish but she gets really nervous on the phone and kinda loses it.
> 
> I feel like our Spanish adventure is unravelling as I really hoped to get free health care with residency acheived but local "GP" insisted on social security number and for this we need a job and cant find one!


Basic Spanish is not good in these situations (not that I'm trying to put your wife down at all!). Best to go straight in with the English. 112 definitely have English speakers, and probably 016 too. Only problem is that 112 may be difficult to get through to due to saturation of calls.


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## andyviola

kalohi said:


> andyviola said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Pesky i hope they have some English operators. My wife has basic conversation in Spanish but she gets really nervous on the phone and kinda loses it.
> 
> I feel like our Spanish adventure is unravelling as I really hoped to get free health care with residency acheived but local "GP" insisted on social security number and for this we need a job and cant find one!
> 
> 
> 
> Life is unravelling for everyone at this point.
Click to expand...

Of course..i was amazed no discussion of it here. Maybe too depressing 😂😂😂


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## andyviola

Pesky Wesky said:


> andyviola said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Pesky i hope they have some English operators. My wife has basic conversation in Spanish but she gets really nervous on the phone and kinda loses it.
> 
> I feel like our Spanish adventure is unravelling as I really hoped to get free health care with residency acheived but local "GP" insisted on social security number and for this we need a job and cant find one!
> 
> 
> 
> Basic Spanish is not good in these situations (not that I'm trying to put your wife down at all!). Best to go straight in with the English. 112 definitely have English speakers, and probably 016 too. Only problem is that 112 may be difficult to get through to due to saturation of calls.
Click to expand...

LOL no worries i got fook else to do if worst happens 🤣🤣


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## Pesky Wesky

andyviola said:


> Of course..i was amazed no discussion of it here. Maybe too depressing 😂😂😂


 There is a looong thread in La Tasca.
Its a really Big Thing and people are trying to get their heads round it as much as possible


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## andyviola

I didn't know about that forum...

If twitter was around during WW2 I think not much work would have been done.

Yes i admire Matt Hancock and hope Spanish health minister has as clear a head. Lockdown is correct as Spain let the situation escalate far too quickly and I feel Spanish ultra positive mood needs more than advice to make them behave 🤣🤣


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## xabiaxica

andyviola said:


> I didn't know about that forum...
> 
> If twitter was around during WW2 I think not much work would have been done.
> 
> Yes i admire Matt Hancock and hope Spanish health minister has as clear a head. Lockdown is correct as Spain let the situation escalate far too quickly and I feel Spanish ultra positive mood needs more than advice to make them behave 🤣🤣


https://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/


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## andyviola

I've just had lateral thought. The people that have fully recovered must be even more frustrated that they have to stay indoors when they fully safe now. 😁


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## Lynn R

andyviola said:


> Calafell in Catalonia. Let me know number please. Very kind.
> 
> Omg our nearest private health proper medical facility is 50km away in Barcelona and doubt i will be fit enough to drive there if really bad so how to get there? Really confused. I doubt they even have ventilators at this "polyclinica"


You need to have a really good read of your insurance policy (and contact the company for clarification if there's anything you're not sure of). It's better not to wait until you're actually in an emergency situation (when you're not going to be thinking straight anyway) to find out what you need to do and who you need to contact to get healthcare.

My company, for instance, has a special 24 hour number to ring if you need emergency treatment. They would tell me which would be the most appropriate facility for me to go to (and in my case if the need was for specialised treatment that might well be a large private hospital in Málaga, not the nearest private cllnic). There are private ambulance services which could transport you to the private hospital your insurance company wants you to use, but the company would normally need to authorise the ambulance transfer.


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## andyviola

Thanks Lynn will do. I knew private health would be more complex but had no idea where to start.


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## Simon22

andyviola said:


> I've just had lateral thought. The people that have fully recovered must be even more frustrated that they have to stay indoors when they fully safe now. 😁


Not really as you can be reinfected so just as wary as the rest of us.


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## Isobella

Lynn R said:


> You need to have a really good read of your insurance policy (and contact the company for clarification if there's anything you're not sure of). It's better not to wait until you're actually in an emergency situation (when you're not going to be thinking straight anyway) to find out what you need to do and who you need to contact to get healthcare.
> 
> My company, for instance, has a special 24 hour number to ring if you need emergency treatment. They would tell me which would be the most appropriate facility for me to go to (and in my case if the need was for specialised treatment that might well be a large private hospital in Málaga, not the nearest private cllnic). There are private ambulance services which could transport you to the private hospital your insurance company wants you to use, but the company would normally need to authorise the ambulance transfer.


Things could change quickly if clinics are overwhelmed or the government could requisition them.


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## andyviola

...well I've had a good life haha. For now hand washing and for goodness sake don't touch the tap with bare hand to close it! As then it's all worth nowt...


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## andyviola

Aww in these times little things really brighten one's day! Good ol Republic de móvil!

RM: Desde RM queremos poner un poco de nuestra parte en estos momentos. Te hemos activado 10GB gratis para que los disfrutes desde hoy durante 30 dias.


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## Simon22

andyviola said:


> Aww in these times little things really brighten one's day! Good ol Republic de móvil!
> 
> RM: Desde RM queremos poner un poco de nuestra parte en estos momentos. Te hemos activado 10GB gratis para que los disfrutes desde hoy durante 30 dias.


I had the same thought, little things like that make a difference.


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## andyviola

Did you get likewise? Great thought as i am sure people hooked to internet whilst in lockdown!


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## Simon22

andyviola said:


> Did you get likewise? Great thought as i am sure people hooked to internet whilst in lockdown!


Yes, I am impressed as I only pay 5€ a month, I am saving it in case our house internet goes off.


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## Overandout

I got a message yesterday "giving me 30GB of mobile data for free".

This is of course useless to me as I am not allowed out of the house, and they know full well that I have WiFi at home.

And that's why they do it. Sounds great, until you realise that most people aren't in a position to make use of the "gift".


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## andyviola

Overandout said:


> I got a message yesterday "giving me 30GB of mobile data for free".
> 
> This is of course useless to me as I am not allowed out of the house, and they know full well that I have WiFi at home.
> 
> And that's why they do it. Sounds great, until you realise that most people aren't in a position to make use of the "gift".


hahahaha good point

I have totally totally awful wifi so for I have a 4g router instead but has data cap (60 gb) but this extra will help and I wish you could also send me your unneeded 30 gig :clap2:


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## Isobella

Does the Freebie last forever? I often get then from Vodafone but most only last to use for 7 days, a few just for a month.


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## tebo53

Benidorm Residents also supporting the healthcare workers at 8pm every evening from balconies and garden areas.

Ghost town Benidorm will be getting tumbleweed soon. The Local consensus is that it will be closed the rest of the year...at least. 

Steve


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## andyviola

Isobella said:


> Does the Freebie last forever? I often get then from Vodafone but most only last to use for 7 days, a few just for a month.


 nope 30 days


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## Alcalaina

Isobella said:


> Things could change quickly if clinics are overwhelmed or the government could requisition them.


They already have.

https://english.elpais.com/society/...bOG_A_N9xwvsS8m1slP_e2OPk0#Echobox=1584345657


> Spanish government puts private healthcare firms at the orders of the regions
> 
> Companies that are holding or that can manufacture health materials such as protective masks have been given 48 hours to inform the authorities on risk of fines for failing to do so


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## andyviola

I guess Spain will go into recession then?


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## mrypg9

andyviola said:


> Calafell in Catalonia. Let me know number please. Very kind.
> 
> Omg our nearest private health proper medical facility is 50km away in Barcelona and doubt i will be fit enough to drive there if really bad so how to get there? Really confused. I doubt they even have ventilators at this "polyclinica"


Keep calm. If you obey the requirements of the decree and stay indoors it is highly unlikely you will be affected or indeed infected.


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## Williams2

andyviola said:


> nope 30 days


Or it could be the same number of days as that notorious film called _28 Days Later_ !!


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> There is a looong thread in La Tasca.
> Its a really Big Thing and people are trying to get their heads round it as much as possible


I don't wish to minimise the seriousness of the situation but really, there's not much anyone needs to take on board at this stage apart from obeying the restrictions as set out in the decree which basically can be reduced to Stay home until you run out of food or medicines then go fetch keeping your distance from other food and medicine seekers.

Reading FB posts it seems some poor folk are finding all this rather exciting, a bit of drama in their lives. Some are in despair, it seems, wondering how to cope in a world where there are no bars or restaurants and they can't play golf. Others are spreading alarmist fake news. It really does help to have some basic knowledge of Spanish if you're planning on staying any length of time here. Part of the problem for some seems to be lack of comprehension as to what they can and can't do.

've had a couple of calls from Spanish friends offering to do my shopping. I'm pleased they care but now know how I appear in their eyes...old and vulnerable which I am not...well, I don't think so.. A British friend called to ask what had happened as the streets were empty and their favourite breakfast café was closed.....

So we just have to carry on watching Netflix and keeping a stiff upper lip..


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## andyviola

mrypg9 said:


> Keep calm. If you obey the requirements of the decree and stay indoors it is highly unlikely you will be affected or indeed infected.


Thanks, correct, just the dreaded trip to Lidl in 2 weeks but mercifully the virus is not air borne so I would have to be stupid and touch my face after touching trolley etc...


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## andyviola

mrypg9 said:


> I don't wish to minimise the seriousness of the situation but really, there's not much anyone needs to take on board at this stage apart from obeying the restrictions as set out in the decree which basically can be reduced to Stay home until you run out of food or medicines then go fetch keeping your distance from other food and medicine seekers.
> 
> Reading FB posts it seems some poor folk are finding all this rather exciting, a bit of drama in their lives. Some are in despair, it seems, wondering how to cope in a world where there are no bars or restaurants and they can't play golf. Others are spreading alarmist fake news. It really does help to have some basic knowledge of Spanish if you're planning on staying any length of time here. Part of the problem for some seems to be lack of comprehension as to what they can and can't do.
> 
> 've had a couple of calls from Spanish friends offering to do my shopping. I'm pleased they care but now know how I appear in their eyes...old and vulnerable which I am not...well, I don't think so.. A British friend called to ask what had happened as the streets were empty and their favourite breakfast café was closed.....
> 
> So we just have to carry on watching Netflix and keeping a stiff upper lip..




true again but I have to translate every web page and find the spanish websites poor anyway, so thanks all for helping provide info. I am not a seasoned exp-pat, indeed only has one season lol


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> I don't wish to minimise the seriousness of the situation but really, there's not much anyone needs to take on board at this stage apart from obeying the restrictions as set out in the decree which basically can be reduced to Stay home until you run out of food or medicines then go fetch keeping your distance from other food and medicine seekers.
> 
> Reading FB posts it seems some poor folk are finding all this rather exciting, a bit of drama in their lives.


 Yep, and as far as FB is concerned I decided long, long ago that FB does more harm than good, in my life anyway, so I've kept well away from it.


I'm focussing on the fact (and it seems that this really is a fact) most of us will get this at some point in the next few weeks, and most of us will not need to go to hospital and we will recover and be fine


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## andyviola

If what the brilliant IC has concluded there will need to be up to 18 months social distancing etc for suppression to "work" i.e. not cripple the health service with massive deaths and its worst crisis since awful Spanish flu 1918.
Life has changed. I guess people will try to mitigate how miserable they feeling deep down especially the more outgoing ones....

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ter-new-prediction-of-250-000-deaths-11958680


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yep, and as far as FB is concerned I decided long, long ago that FB does more harm than good, in my life anyway, so I've kept well away from it.
> 
> 
> I'm focussing on the fact (and it seems that this really is a fact) most of us will get this at some point in the next few weeks, and most of us will not need to go to hospital and we will recover and be fine


I'm just thankful I'm now in Spain and not in Prague. I thought that when I was told I had a chronic heart problem. 

It's strange....the past four weeks I've not been out more than two or three times as I've had bronchitis and the past few days a head cold - sneezes and sniffles, no temperature or sore throat. During this time of voluntary seclusion I kept telling everyone how great it was to be in my little house with my books and dogs, the garden, the tranquillity....Now I can't go out I've started to feel peeved even though I don't need or want to go out. 

FB s a tool like a knife or an axe and like both it can be used for good or harmful purposes. It's enabled me to keep in touch with students I taught over thirty years ago, now with families, children of their own. A few have revealed themselves as gay and one transitioned from female to male and is now living happily with wife and child.
But it also reveals the depths of human malice and stupidity so like knives and axes has to be handled with care.

Keep safe and happy up there in Madrid...  At last we have rain here:clap2:


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## mrypg9

andyviola said:


> true again but I have to translate every web page and find the spanish websites poor anyway, so thanks all for helping provide info. I am not a seasoned exp-pat, indeed only has one season lol


You'll get there We all had to adjust. . You need to get your health care sorted as a priority though as finding work won't be easy. Not sure if you said you'd reached the official retirement age, whatever that is now. If you are you're entitled to 'free' health care but if not you'll be treated in an emergency anyway. This is Spain not the U.S. of A. remember

Most of us here would describe ourselves as immigrants, not ex-pats. I personally loathe the term. For me it conjures up images of middle-aged men in khaki shorts and sun- burned knees knocking back G&Ts with stiff-permed wives in a Raffles-type bar in some outpost of Empire. Mind you, I've seen people like that in Marbella

But it's up to you how you see yourself.


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## andyviola

Im 52. Well we not sure what's needed for free health care. We believe a social security number is needed and have filled in an identity form as first step to get one but we have to get that verified at social security office and wont be possible now for god knows how long.

I did warn my wife Spain would be a bureaucratic nightmare and maybe i should have stuck with my instinct and not come.


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## mrypg9

andyviola said:


> Im 52. Well we not sure what's needed for free health care. We believe a social security number is needed and have filled in an identity form as first step to get one but we have to get that verified at social security office and wont be possible now for god knows how long.
> 
> I did warn my wife Spain would be a bureaucratic nightmare and maybe i should have stuck with my instinct and not come.


I may be wrong but I think that unless you are employed or in receipt of UK State Retirement Pension you are not entitled to free regional health care although you will be treated in case of emergency. There is a provision which enables you to bypass private care, Conenio Especial which for a couple would cost around €300 a month.

But you’ve got your Residencia, haven’t you? You must have some health cover to have got that.

Spain really isn’t a bureaucratic nightmare. It’s easy to find out what’s required to be a permanent resident and once in possession of that information and with the correct documents there should be no obstacles in your way. There were none whatsoever for us. Everyone was helpful.

It’s so important to research and plan very carefully and thoroughly before setting foot on Spanish soil. Saves problems when you do.


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## Tigerlillie

mrypg9 said:


> I may be wrong but I think that unless you are employed or in receipt of UK State Retirement Pension you are not entitled to free regional health care although you will be treated in case of emergency. * There is a provision which enables you to bypass private care, Conenio Especial which for a couple would cost around €300 a month.*
> 
> But you’ve got your Residencia, haven’t you? You must have some health cover to have got that.
> 
> Spain really isn’t a bureaucratic nightmare. It’s easy to find out what’s required to be a permanent resident and once in possession of that information and with the correct documents there should be no obstacles in your way. There were none whatsoever for us. Everyone was helpful.
> 
> It’s so important to research and plan very carefully and thoroughly before setting foot on Spanish soil. Saves problems when you do.


Not for under 65's up until then it is 60€ pppm


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## andyviola

mrypg9 said:


> I may be wrong but I think that unless you are employed or in receipt of UK State Retirement Pension you are not entitled to free regional health care although you will be treated in case of emergency. There is a provision which enables you to bypass private care, Conenio Especial which for a couple would cost around €300 a month.
> 
> But you’ve got your Residencia, haven’t you? You must have some health cover to have got that.
> 
> Spain really isn’t a bureaucratic nightmare. It’s easy to find out what’s required to be a permanent resident and once in possession of that information and with the correct documents there should be no obstacles in your way. There were none whatsoever for us. Everyone was helpful.
> 
> It’s so important to research and plan very carefully and thoroughly before setting foot on Spanish soil. Saves problems when you do.


yes sadly I found it too complicated when I tried to research - I am not the brightest person with reading such info and its all on me as wife is not native English...., I never really found a definitive source in English at time of research and was also mega stressed selling a property in UK in a struggling market.

thanks so much, yes we have resedencia hooray last November. And have private care that wont cover us for pandemics, I checked.


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## andyviola

Tigerlillie said:


> Not for under 65's up until then it is 60€ pppm


any link for getting this please?


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## Tigerlillie

andyviola said:


> any link for getting this please?


I just googled and came up with this:

https://www.expatforum.com/expats/s...pain/1458378-convenio-especial-catalonia.html

Seems you already asked this question and of course to qualify you need a minimum 1 yrs residency.


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## andyviola

Tigerlillie said:


> Not for under 65's up until then it is 60€ pppm





andyviola said:


> any link for getting this please?


OK I found info on good old gov.uk site :clap2::clap2::clap2:

If you are not a permanent resident and you are not working
You can apply to join the public health insurance scheme. This is called the Convenio Especial. You pay a monthly fee to join the scheme, which gives you access to the Spanish health system.

You can apply if you’ve been registered on the ‘padrón’ (at your local town hall) for at least one year. Find out how to apply at your local health centre in Spain.

If you’ve lived in Spain for less than one year and cannot get healthcare cover, you’ll need to buy private health insurance.

If the UK pays for your healthcare, for example through an S1, you cannot join the Convenio Especial.


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## Juan C

To get residence status in spain one needs 100% medical cover. 

That means you are covered for everything

I do not understand how you can be legally resident but not have 100%. (..... have private care that wont cover us for pandemics, I checked.).


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## andyviola

Juan C said:


> To get residence status in spain one needs 100% medical cover.
> 
> That means you are covered for everything
> 
> I do not understand how you can be legally resident but not have 100%. (..... have private care that wont cover us for pandemics, I checked.).


Dunno guess they slipped up at Police Station ! we have the green resedencia thingy.

The cover stated no codicils , that why I paid the top rate for the company in questions, fiatc,


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## andyviola

Our Spanish neighbour asks "what's going on with the Brits?", She means why the hell are there no restrictions IMPOSED. They can't get their heads around the fact in general the Brits don't have to be forced ! 

Naturally I exclude Brits still partying in Benidorm....


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## Williams2

andyviola said:


> Our Spanish neighbour asks "what's going on with the Brits?", She means why the hell are there no restrictions IMPOSED. They can't get their heads around the fact in general the Brits don't have to be forced !
> 
> Naturally I exclude Brits still partying in Benidorm....




They might respond to air raid sirens like they did during the war.


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## tebo53

andyviola said:


> Our Spanish neighbour asks "what's going on with the Brits?", She means why the hell are there no restrictions IMPOSED. They can't get their heads around the fact in general the Brits don't have to be forced !
> 
> *Naturally I exclude Brits still partying in Benidorm​....​*


*​*

I can assure you that the brits you refer to have been dealt with.

Benidorm is like a ghost town at the moment. 

Steve


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## andyviola

LOL. But....The drunken Brits in Benidorm... NEVER! 😁

Ahh just read last post! Good bet the mossers gave them what's for....


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## mrypg9

andyviola said:


> Dunno guess they slipped up at Police Station ! we have the green resedencia thingy.
> 
> The cover stated no codicils , that why I paid the top rate for the company in questions, fiatc,


Probably a silly question...but are you sure your green paper is residencia and not just NIE?



Apologies for giving wrong info about cost of Convenio Especial. Wrong age group


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## andyviola

Yes Sir its resedencia. We got our Nie back in London embassy before we came to Spain in June to buy the house.


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## mrypg9

andyviola said:


> Yes Sir its resedencia. We got our Nie back in London embassy before we came to Spain in June to buy the house.


Then I think you can sign on the padron and start the process of getting the Convenio Especial. 120 euros for both of you and full cover with an excellent health servce - well I find it so here in Andalucia.


----------



## mrypg9

Went to the local farmacia last night to pick up my meds....dusk was beginning to fall and there was a light drizzle. Quite poetic, really what with the empty streets. 
As I was out I decided to go five minutes up the road to Carrefour. About fifty people in the huge space, usually packed at this time of the evening. I went to get tins of dog food but there were about four policia local and several Carrefour staff blocking the part of the store with pet supplies, car stuff, electrical etc. I explained what I wanted and was let through.

Then this morning yo superpillock sat on my glasses, arm broken off. Thankfully optician's open until 2pm so set off to get them repaired which meant I had to drive to and through Estepona town centre. Deserted, as it should be. A couple of dog walkers and a woman with a shopping trolley. Police cars at most junctions and roundabouts but they didn't take any notice of me which was just as well as I'd have had to explain why I was on the road......but I can't or shouldn't drive without my specs. Needs must. The thought of not being able to read for perhaps a month...

It's a bit eerie but n a strange way rather pleasant. I think it was Isobella who said all this reminded her of that old Neville Shute novel 'On the Beach' which was about a post-nuclear holocaust world. I seem to remember seeing the film of the book ...for some reason Geregory Peck and Ava Gardner (I think they were the stars) had survived...


----------



## andyviola

Yes a year needs to have passed since we first signed onto Padron it seems but yes great advice and we will do that once private care finishing end of this year


----------



## Stephen D

HI everyone.I've got to drive on Friday for a dental appointment. Will I need any documentation/proof of appointment? My dentist told me to tell the police "I'm in pain" if asked.Dont really fancy it, as it's a 30 minute trip, but it's essential.


----------



## andyviola

Is it just a checkup? If so don't go as its not worth the hassle.


----------



## andyviola

The sense of entitlement of the British lady on tv now is just phenomenal. She is LUCKY enough to be able to work from home but is complaining that her 5 year old will be demanding attention! Delegate your 13 year old to look after!

And try total lockdown m'dear.....

OMG and then her question for education secretary is "how long will it last". No hope of containing spread with people like this...


----------



## Alcalaina

Stephen D said:


> HI everyone.I've got to drive on Friday for a dental appointment. Will I need any documentation/proof of appointment? My dentist told me to tell the police "I'm in pain" if asked.Dont really fancy it, as it's a 30 minute trip, but it's essential.


Attending medical/dental appointments is on the "allowed" list. Take evidence if you have it, e.g. a phone or Whatsapp record, but otherwise don't worry. It's not something you want to put off!


----------



## Juan C

andyviola said:


> The sense of entitlement of the British lady on tv now is just phenomenal. She is LUCKY enough to be able to work from home but is complaining that her 5 year old will be demanding attention! Delegate your 13 year old to look after!
> 
> And try total lockdown m'dear.....
> 
> OMG and then her question for education secretary is "how long will it last". No hope of containing spread with people like this...


I think it is unreasonable to criticise the woman. 

It was the broadcaster who decided to interviewer her and then decided it was newsworthy enough to run the clip.


----------



## Alcalaina

Juan C said:


> I think it is unreasonable to criticise the woman.
> 
> It was the broadcaster who decided to interviewer her and then decided it was newsworthy enough to run the clip.


I think it's perfectly reasonable to criticise this woman's attitude. She certainly isn't the only one; self-entitlement is a growing phenomenon, and dangerous when the only way we can beat this virus is by pulling together.


----------



## andyviola

Well I have a right to express my opinion and won't be told not to unless we living in China 🤣🤣


----------



## Juan C

andyviola said:


> Well I have a right to express my opinion and won't be told not to unless we living in China 🤣🤣


Sorry if you think I had no right to say what I did, but following your line .........


----------



## xabiaxica

Meanwhile in Spain...

This from a friend of mine on FB this morning



> Yesterday, I went out for the first time to food shop wearing my new fashion accessory, blue surgical gloves. We were all queuing to get in, standing one metre apart, one out one in, about five people in our little local MasyMas. An elderly man wandered in, not having queued, and stood looking completely confused. Instead of being told to leave as other queue jumpers had been ordered to an assistant asked him what he needed, explained why she was wearing a mask and gloves, took his list, stood him by the office and sorted out his needs. Another assistant stood with him chatting. All done, he was taken to the checkout, we all let him go first whilst standing one metre apart from each other. No one complained, tutted or fussed just smiles and a few words. Great work MasyMas.


----------



## mrypg9

xabiaxica said:


> Meanwhile in Spain...
> 
> This from a friend of mine on FB this morning


Yes, people tend to pull together in times of emergency....war, plague, natural disaster.
They tend to look to the state for organisation, structure and guidance as well as for economic assistance. I grew up hearing my Grandmother saying how in spite of the horrors and hardships of the war 'We was all in it together'.

And after it's over and we're released little old cynic me wonders how long it will take before we're back to normal, each guarding our own little patch and moaning about high taxes and the nanny state.


----------



## andyviola

Its ok Juan please disagree with anything I say as strong as you want but don't call me unreasonable 😁 that is a bit personal


----------



## mrypg9

andyviola said:


> Its ok Juan please disagree with anything I say as strong as you want but don't call me unreasonable 😁 that is a bit personal


Hmm... as insults go, that's pretty mild. In my years as a politician (local government) teacher and head teacher I've been called worse. Much worse.

I survived


----------



## andyviola

Hahaha ok ok let's call it a draw


----------



## Isobella

andyviola said:


> The sense of entitlement of the British lady on tv now is just phenomenal. She is LUCKY enough to be able to work from home but is complaining that her 5 year old will be demanding attention! Delegate your 13 year old to look after!
> 
> And try total lockdown m'dear.....
> 
> OMG and then her question for education secretary is "how long will it last". No hope of containing spread with people like this...


I think you should be watching Spanish news to familiarise yourself with what is happening


----------



## andyviola

Isabella that's FAR too depressing to watch! 🙂


----------



## mrypg9

andyviola said:


> Isabella that's FAR too depressing to watch! 🙂


Not so. Ive had La Sexta on in the background since I woke up. Good coverage and easy watching/listening.

When I first came to Spain I thought La Sexta was some kind of porn channel and Eroski supermarkets were sex shops.


----------



## Love Karma

mrypg9 said:


> Not so. Ive had La Sexta on in the background since I woke up. Good coverage and easy watching/listening.
> 
> When I first came to Spain I thought La Sexta was some kind of porn channel and Eroski supermarkets were sex shops.


And truthfully on a scale of 1 to 10 how disappointed were you when you realised their true purpose.....with 10 being "devastated"


----------



## Alcalaina

Love Karma said:


> And truthfully on a scale of 1 to 10 how disappointed were you when you realised their true purpose.....with 10 being "devastated"


Relieved, probably.


----------



## andyviola

This headline conjured up many emotions!


----------



## Simon22

mrypg9 said:


> Not so. Ive had La Sexta on in the background since I woke up. Good coverage and easy watching/listening.
> 
> When I first came to Spain I thought La Sexta was some kind of porn channel and Eroski supermarkets were sex shops.


I thought the "girls" at roundabouts were selling oranges!


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Relieved, probably.


Well, yes. 
Although forty years ago, perhaps, I might have been interested.


----------



## mrypg9

Love Karma said:


> And truthfully on a scale of 1 to 10 how disappointed were you when you realised their true purpose.....with 10 being "devastated"


I remember how before I came to Spain reading about the relaxed permissive attitude of most Spaniards to al things sexual so I just assumed anything with Eros in it must be about sex. It certainly was in Prague.

As for the tv....shortly after arriving here I was invited for a cup of coffee by my neighbours Juan and Meri, a retired couple in their sixties. As we chatted the tv was on in the background, volume turned down, and I was gobsmacked to see a couple having very explicit sex. It was eleven o'clock in the morning.

So I assumed the country was a hotbed of rampant lust and lechery, a fair assumption based on limited experience.


----------



## mrypg9

andyviola said:


> This headline conjured up many emotions!


Interesting. Of course in wartime there were similar restrictions on freedom including carrying of ID cards and restrictions on movement. My mother used to tell the story of how she and my dad's mum set off from Lymington on the Isle of Wight ferry to Cowes to visit a relative only to be told they couldn't disembark on arrival in Cowes. They were the only passengers treated in that way and my mum was still embarrassed about it decades later. 

Attitudes have changed since then, of course. We've had the swinging sixties, the permissive society and the rampant individualism of the post 1979 years. On the other hand, we've seen the erosion of many civil liberties including the suspension of habeas cor[us and the provisions of the Prevention of Terrorism Act.

My own view is that the chief duty of any state is to ensure that its citizens can go about their lawful business in peace and safety. Civil liberties aren't much use if they allow the real threat that you might be blown to pieces or die of a plague. The important issue is how any restrctions are subject to public scrutiny and transparency.


----------



## Williams2

mrypg9 said:


> Interesting. *Of course in wartime there were similar restrictions on freedom* including carrying of ID cards and restrictions on movement. My mother used to tell the story of how she and my dad's mum set off from Lymington on the Isle of Wight ferry to Cowes to visit a relative only to be told they couldn't disembark on arrival in Cowes. They were the only passengers treated in that way and my mum was still embarrassed about it decades later.
> 
> Attitudes have changed since then, of course. We've had the swinging sixties, the permissive society and the rampant individualism of the post 1979 years. On the other hand, we've seen the erosion of many civil liberties including the suspension of habeas cor[us and the provisions of the Prevention of Terrorism Act.
> 
> My own view is that the chief duty of any state is to ensure that its citizens can go about their lawful business in peace and safety. Civil liberties aren't much use if they allow the real threat that you might be blown to pieces or die of a plague. The important issue is how any restrctions are subject to public scrutiny and transparency.


Yes - I posted a video of part of the Duncan Campbell documentary - _Secret Society, In Time of Crisis_ 
about the Emergency Powers Act in time of war, on the other Corrie thread in La Tasca.


----------



## Isobella

Exeter said:


> Theres a word for people like this but I daren't use it here
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/ismaelgonzalezjimenez/videos/3604873299553723/?t=5


I don’t think we should get into quoting a Facebook all the time.


----------



## Exeter

Isobella said:


> No I am not embarrassed there are greedy toe rags in all countries and I cannot take responsibility for all UK. I don’t give a toss as to what Spanish think of Brits.
> 
> I thought it was bad taste because it linked to the page, comments had already been deleted, and the thread closed. If I want to see what the Spanish think of us I can read Facebook myself but I try to avoid the naff site.
> 
> Thirdly it does not do the reputation of this forum any good, lastly you are **** stirring. You could have linked the video without the Britexpats page.


Absolute nonsense, threads get closed all the time and NO comments have been deleted whatsoever, it registers 38 comments and 38 comments still visible and 21 shares. 
****stirring? Why, what possible reason and exactly how is it ****stirring? I simply right clicked video and copied the URL which is embedded in the Brexpats site and pasted here. They obviously have Zero problem with it as it has been on the site for 6 days with 21 shares. How does it bring this forum's reputation into disrepute? It is factual evidence that is widely visible across all social media platforms of some shameful behaviour during this crisis whatever the nationality.
Even the NHS Boss went on TV today and said that People in Britain should be ashamed by this panic buying and stockpiling....if you don't approve of "Naff Site " Sky News...the clip is available across all U.K Media


https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...XFD0sCFveQfz0DAdcMzevCgXBTeuH-UKCMQTuC8GWXaMw


----------



## Overandout

So what was the turnout in your respective areas for the cacerolada against the government handling of the situation when Pedro started to talk?

Round here there was quite a lot of support which to be honest, shouldn't surprise me as I live in an area with lots of retired Guardia Civil and ex-military people who are obviously against anything Pedro does, but it still did surprise me.


----------



## xgarb

Overandout said:


> So what was the turnout in your respective areas for the cacerolada against the government handling of the situation when Pedro started to talk?
> 
> Round here there was quite a lot of support which to be honest, shouldn't surprise me as I live in an area with lots of retired Guardia Civil and ex-military people who are obviously against anything Pedro does, but it still did surprise me.


I didn't even know this existed. So why are they protesting.. action too slow, too much restrictions?

I think Pedro is handling things pretty well. He's very confident on the telly. Of course the government should have been planning for something like this but no government outside Asia seemed to have a plan. Even the UK when there was a recent report warning about this which was ignored.


----------



## xabiaxica

Posts discussing the virus itself are here https://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/1497246-sp-coronavirus-104.html#post15067696


----------



## Alcalaina

We've had our first case in the pueblo (hospitalised but not in ICU). The mayor has just issued new, stricter orders - including no dog-walking (let them crap on the pavement outside the house), no daily trips to the shops, and everyone has to wash down their front door with bleach solution.


----------



## Williams2

*This will brighten your day in isolation, folks !!!*

https://www.facebook.com/frutas.ram...STEwMDAwMDM3NzY2NDQ4NToxNTgwNjM1NDE4NzU2NzUy/


----------



## Juan C

My wife, when she was in philippines, taught her cat to perch on the edge of the toilet when it needed to pee or poo. 

So dog owners with time on your hands now ..............


----------



## Isobella

Alcalaina said:


> We've had our first case in the pueblo (hospitalised but not in ICU). The mayor has just issued new, stricter orders - including no dog-walking (let them crap on the pavement outside the house), no daily trips to the shops, and everyone has to wash down their front door with bleach solution.


Are they old or young? Hope it is a isolated case. :fingerscrossed:

May be total rubbish but I read today that for cleaning, soap is more effective against the virus than bleach.


----------



## Juan C

The people who should know have been saying soap is better that sanitiser.


----------



## Alcalaina

Isobella said:


> Are they old or young? Hope it is a isolated case. :fingerscrossed:
> 
> May be total rubbish but I read today that for cleaning, soap is more effective against the virus than bleach.


They haven't given any details, other than that the patient is not in danger. The alcalde issues a Facebook update every morning so I guess we'll soon know the worst.

Soap does kill the virus effectively, but I'm not sure how practical it would be to spray the streets with it. You know how obsessed everyone here is with bleach ... One poor woman in the Correos queue this morning had red raw hands, turned out she'd been washing them in bleach! Fortunately the woman behind her in the queue noticed and put her right.


----------



## Alcalaina

Juan C said:


> The people who should know have been saying soap is better that sanitiser.


Indeed, soap is far and away the best thing for washing your hands. But people don't seem to get the message.



> No matter what you touch, soap and water is the best way to remove any potential coronavirus from your hands before it can lead to infection. The coronavirus does not penetrate through skin because your outermost layer is slightly acidic, which prevents most pathogens from entering the body, explains Greatorex.
> 
> Soap works so effectively because its chemistry pries open the coronavirus’s exterior envelope and cause it to degrade. These soap molecules then trap tiny fragments of the virus, which are washed away in water.


https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...-preferable-bleach-fight-against-coronavirus/


----------



## mickbcn

andyviola said:


> Calafell in Catalonia. Let me know number please. Very kind.
> 
> Omg our nearest private health proper medical facility is 50km away in Barcelona and doubt i will be fit enough to drive there if really bad so how to get there? Really confused. I doubt they even have ventilators at this "polyclinica"


Hello, I don't know if you have public health, here in Catalonia we the locals have one APP you must download , this application is in catalan spanish,english french and chinese, the name is stop covid 19 .cat , then write your number of the social security or your passport then you mus write the simptoma if you feel bad , if you feel good select the simptoma anyway and sent ,this is very important for the system of catalan sanity to know how are the people, yesterday more than 750,000 sent their inform , and 7000 report some problem, if you have registered in the catalan sanity they will contact you.
if you are ok don't move of your home if you are older of 70 like me just call the council and ask for how to buy food in your home, (i live in Vilafranca 25 km from you) and here there are a group of volunteers who go to shop for you.
The worst days will be at the end of this week because the quantity of person that need enter in the hospitals and maybe don't have enough beds and ventilators, however the good new is in Barcelona a big group of volunteers are working with 3d printers making this ventilators they make 300 per day and a lots of gloves and glasses, don't be afraid if maybe you are in the best side of Spain now despite the ineficient work of the spanish government because they don't want isolate Catalonia, or Madrid and this create more and more infections , the health system is in hands of the Generalitat of Catalonia.


----------



## mickbcn

andyviola said:


> Thanks Pesky i hope they have some English operators. My wife has basic conversation in Spanish but she gets really nervous on the phone and kinda loses it.
> 
> I feel like our Spanish adventure is unravelling as I really hoped to get free health care with residency acheived but local "GP" insisted on social security number and for this we need a job and cant find one!


Don't be afraid you don't will be abandoned here for the healthcare. I read that in Germany there are 25 bed of UCI (intensive care treatment), for 100.000 person in UK 6,5 and in Spain 9,2...this mean here are a little better than in UK.


----------



## mickbcn

andyviola said:


> Aww in these times little things really brighten one's day! Good ol Republic de móvil!
> 
> RM: Desde RM queremos poner un poco de nuestra parte en estos momentos. Te hemos activado 10GB gratis para que los disfrutes desde hoy durante 30 dias.


https://english.vilaweb.cat/noticie...ockdown-and-asks-for-further-social-measures/


----------



## mickbcn

mrypg9 said:


> Keep calm. If you obey the requirements of the decree and stay indoors it is highly unlikely you will be affected or indeed infected.


https://english.vilaweb.cat/noticies/catalonia-makes-respirators-with-3d-printers/


----------



## mickbcn

https://english.vilaweb.cat/noticies/why-is-madrid-not-under-lockdown-yet/


----------



## Overandout

xgarb said:


> I didn't even know this existed. So why are they protesting.. action too slow, too much restrictions?
> 
> I think Pedro is handling things pretty well. He's very confident on the telly. Of course the government should have been planning for something like this but no government outside Asia seemed to have a plan. Even the UK when there was a recent report warning about this which was ignored.


I've said it before and I still believe that we are politically in the best position we could be in. Look at the absolute mess the UK and US are going to be in a few weeks down the line. 

But politics is as it is and there are many people who use any crisis against the government, whoever it is at the time. In Spain it is Torra (Catalán) and Díaz Ayuso (Madrid) who are leading the political attacks now. For them this crisis is a great opportunity which they are doing well to benefit from. 
I have even heard that some socialist supporters believe that this crisis will cost Pedro the presidency. But I am hoping that these are the obligatory defeatist nay-sayers who exist in any collective.

Pay attention in your area when Pedro has to go live to announce a the approval of the additional 15 days. I predict a stronger turn out than last time.


----------



## Williams2

Just had a worrying thought and that's the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning while in lockdown 
brought on by an overwhelming smell of disinfectant that drifted into the apartment from,
god knows where.

Of course carbon monoxide has no smell or taste but the symptoms described as "flu-like" and
commonly include headache, dizziness, weakness, etc - might be mistaken as the onset of a 
Coronavirus infection by those who haven't taken the precaution of having a carbon monoxide
alarm in their apartment.


----------



## Dominic Lopecas

This Coronavirus is terminating Span and Italy orders population, one Spanish politician told me that 69% of those dead would have been dead through natural courses in the next 6 month, so we should no be so pessimist about the virus, and it is the same in all countries. So we have to learn and live with Coronavirus for very long-time it would take a year before any positive result will come out of this mess-virus.


----------



## xgarb

Overandout said:


> But politics is as it is and there are many people who use any crisis against the government, whoever it is at the time. In Spain it is Torra (Catalán) and Díaz Ayuso (Madrid) who are leading the political attacks now. For them this crisis is a great opportunity which they are doing well to benefit from.


Someone from the PP was on the telly last night sniping at Pedro, saying something along the lines of the fault falls at his feet. Like he's personally responsible for everything.

I don't remember hearing the PP leader running around screaming 'do something' for the last month.


----------



## Overandout

xgarb said:


> Someone from the PP was on the telly last night sniping at Pedro, saying something along the lines of the fault falls at his feet. Like he's personally responsible for everything.
> 
> I don't remember hearing the PP leader running around screaming 'do something' for the last month.


I have also seen PP propaganda suggesting that under the current government spending on the public health system was going to be reduced by 1,2 billion € with respect to 2019. This is all out political war already and it won't stop until there are casualties. The PP and VOX will continue to criticise Pedro's handling of the situation because it is their job to do so.
I think however that they need to gauge it very carefully, too much attacking now (when the country needs to be pulling together) could be seen as counterproductive politically, but they are sowing the seeds of doubt so that when the country is ready to look at the economic impact of the measures, they will drive the nail in with a populist backing.

And we have to be honest, the measures put in place by Sanchez are amongst the fastest and most restrictive of all western countries so far, and considering Spain's virtual total dependence on tourism, we are in for a very, very bleak economic fall out which will last for years, if not decades.

Had the right been in power, more would have been done to protect the economy, we all have to recognise that. But I hope that Pedro reads between the lines, what Pablo Casado was saying is correct, Pedro Sanchez is the one to "blame" for all that is happening as a direct result of the government intervention, but that also means that he is the one responsible for the lives he is saving at the cost of economic stability.

I think that there is a strong chance that he will lose his presidency, but he will always have my respect for doing what was needed, even if it costs him his job. He will always be able to go with his head held high in my opinion.


----------



## Alcalaina

Williams2 said:


> Just had a worrying thought and that's the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning while in lockdown
> brought on by an overwhelming smell of disinfectant that drifted into the apartment from,
> god knows where.
> 
> Of course carbon monoxide has no smell or taste but the symptoms described as "flu-like" and
> commonly include headache, dizziness, weakness, etc - might be mistaken as the onset of a
> Coronavirus infection by those who haven't taken the precaution of having a carbon monoxide
> alarm in their apartment.


Where did you get the idea that disinfectant (I assume you are referring to bleach) releases carbon monoxide?


----------



## mrypg9

Overandout said:


> I've said it before and I still believe that we are politically in the best position we could be in. Look at the absolute mess the UK and US are going to be in a few weeks down the line.
> 
> But politics is as it is and there are many people who use any crisis against the government, whoever it is at the time. In Spain it is Torra (Catalán) and Díaz Ayuso (Madrid) who are leading the political attacks now. For them this crisis is a great opportunity which they are doing well to benefit from.
> I have even heard that some socialist supporters believe that this crisis will cost Pedro the presidency. But I am hoping that these are the obligatory defeatist nay-sayers who exist in any collective.
> 
> Pay attention in your area when Pedro has to go live to announce a the approval of the additional 15 days. I predict a stronger turn out than last time.


Surely the only circumstances in which Pedro could be turfed out would be via a successful no confidence vote and I can’t see that happening.
He has taken measures to ‘stabilise the economy’ maybe not by favouring the better off as the PP would do but by putting money into the pockets of those who need it most, ordinary working people. By doing so domestic demand will hopefully benefit from this stimulus.

After this crisis is over people might have a different perspective on the role of government and the need for proper funding of health and other social services. 
If that is indeed the case they won’t be looking to the Right to make hope into policy.


----------



## Williams2

Alcalaina said:


> Where did you get the idea that disinfectant (I assume you are referring to bleach) releases carbon monoxide?


I know, I know, I know - it was just the smell (disinfectant) that triggered a thought
about carbon monoxide - which is both odorless and tasteless & the advantages of having a carbon
monoxide alarm in place from a H&S in the home, point of view.


----------



## Overandout

mrypg9 said:


> Surely the only circumstances in which Pedro could be turfed out would be via a successful no confidence vote and I can’t see that happening.
> He has taken measures to ‘stabilise the economy’ maybe not by favouring the better off as the PP would do but by putting money into the pockets of those who need it most, ordinary working people. By doing so domestic demand will hopefully benefit from this stimulus.
> 
> After this crisis is over people might have a different perspective on the role of government and the need for proper funding of health and other social services.
> If that is indeed the case they won’t be looking to the Right to make hope into policy.


Spain will likely be in severe economic recession by the end of this year. I wouldn't rule out votes of no confidence under such circumstances, but perhaps that is too pessimistic... 

What I don't think is too pessimistic is to expect that society will learn nothing from this experience. Maybe in the short-term there may be some upturn in comprehension and solidarity, but I wouldn't expect it to last.


----------



## Alcalaina

Williams2 said:


> I know, I know, I know - it was just the smell (disinfectant) that triggered a thought
> about carbon monoxide - which is both odorless and tasteless & the advantages of having a carbon
> monoxide alarm in place from a H&S in the home, point of view.


OK. But we don't want any more fearmongering theories going round, there are plenty of those already! 

We have all been issued with guidelines on using bleach to clean our front doors and steps:
- Wear rubber gloves
- Dilute 1 cup of bleach in 10 litres of COLD water (hot doesn't work)
- Don't mix it with anything else - vinegar, salt or any other cleaning product - as that can produce toxic fumes
- Rinse out mop, cloth, bucket etc with clean cold water afterwards


----------



## snikpoh

Alcalaina said:


> We have all been issued with guidelines on using bleach to clean our front doors and steps:
> - Wear rubber gloves
> - Dilute 1 cup of bleach in 10 litres of COLD water (hot doesn't work)
> - Don't mix it with anything else - vinegar, salt or any other cleaning product - as that can produce toxic fumes
> - Rinse out mop, cloth, bucket etc with clean cold water afterwards


Where do you get this?

We haven't been told that at all - no one I know has mentioned it.

It would have absolutely no effect on the virus - it would just give you clean front doors.

Soap works as does alcohol - not bleach (or so the scientists state)


----------



## Exeter

snikpoh said:


> Where do you get this?
> 
> We haven't been told that at all - no one I know has mentioned it.
> 
> It would have absolutely no effect on the virus - it would just give you clean front doors.
> 
> Soap works as does alcohol - not bleach (or so the scientists state)


Incorrect


https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prepare/cleaning-disinfection.html

https://www.consumerreports.org/cle...-products-that-can-destroy-novel-coronavirus/


----------



## jimenato

snikpoh said:


> Where do you get this?
> 
> We haven't been told that at all - no one I know has mentioned it.
> 
> It would have absolutely no effect on the virus - it would just give you clean front doors.
> 
> Soap works as does alcohol - not bleach (or so the scientists state)


Any link for that? AFAIAA bleach is fine as per Exeter's post.


----------



## Dominic Lopecas

Bleach or no bleach les hope that you don't get the Coronavirus, because in Spain now people pass-away at very rapidly speed, of course not the politicians they are well looked after, my good doctor friend in Madrid passed away last week doing a job that he was trained for and loved to do it.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

snikpoh said:


> Where do you get this?
> 
> We haven't been told that at all - no one I know has mentioned it.
> 
> It would have absolutely no effect on the virus - it would just give you clean front doors.
> 
> Soap works as does alcohol - not bleach (or so the scientists state)


 Bleach works
Please make sure you recommend it
From the government site mentioned in Exeter's post


> For disinfection, diluted household bleach solutions, alcohol solutions with at least 70% alcohol, and most common EPA-registered household disinfectants should be effective.


----------



## Williams2

Drivers in the UK will get a 6 month emergency MOT extension, starting with cars that were due 
to be MOT tested on or after Monday 30th March.

BBC News - British drivers get 6 month MOT extension during the crisis

So any news from the Spanish government or DGT Trafico about ITV extensions during the lockdown ?


----------



## Overandout

Williams2 said:


> Drivers in the UK will get a 6 month emergency MOT extension, starting with cars that were due
> to be MOT tested on or after Monday 30th March.
> 
> BBC News - British drivers get 6 month MOT extension during the crisis
> 
> So any news from the Spanish government or DGT Trafico about ITV extensions during the lockdown ?


Yes, all administrative dates of expiry (ITVs, driving permits etc.) are extended automatically to 60 days after the end of the state of alarm.

ITV expires 30th March (as is the case for one of our cars), we have two months after being "released" to get the ITV passed and in the meantime we can continue to use it.


----------



## xabiaxica

It isn't just us Brits who laugh in the face of adversity


----------



## Monkey104

Pesky Wesky said:


> Bleach works
> Please make sure you recommend it
> From the government site mentioned in Exeter's post


The report from the consumer report is a hash of the CDC report from 2019. Surface contamination has not even been documented on this report
The only recommendation and the most recent information is from The World Health Organisation ( WHO) is to use Soap and water and hand rub gel of not less than 70% alcohol and disinfectant.
I know which advice I will be taking.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Monkey104 said:


> The report from the consumer report is a hash of the CDC report from 2019. Surface contamination has not even been documented on this report
> The only recommendation and the most recent information is from The World Health Organisation ( WHO) is to use Soap and water and hand rub gel of not less than 70% alcohol and disinfectant.
> I know which advice I will be taking.


 Well , just as long as we are all doing something!


I have also seen nurses in hospitals recommending bleach,but of course not for hands!


----------



## Alcalaina

snikpoh said:


> Where do you get this?
> 
> We haven't been told that at all - no one I know has mentioned it.
> 
> It would have absolutely no effect on the virus - it would just give you clean front doors.
> 
> Soap works as does alcohol - not bleach (or so the scientists state)


It was issued by the Ayuntamiento on Monday, along with tighter restrictions following the discovery of the first case of the virus in the town. They are all the spraying public places and we all have to clean our own doors and steps. Bleach DOES kill the virus if used correctly.


----------



## snikpoh

Alcalaina said:


> It was issued by the Ayuntamiento on Monday, along with tighter restrictions following the discovery of the first case of the virus in the town. They are all the spraying public places and we all have to clean our own doors and steps. Bleach DOES kill the virus if used correctly.


I have yet to see evidence of this from a valid source - I hope I'm wrong.

Maybe your town hall know something that others don't - no such advise for us


----------



## Exeter

Monkey104 said:


> The report from the consumer report is a hash of the CDC report from 2019. *Surface contamination has not even been documented on this report*
> The only recommendation and the most recent information is from The World Health Organisation ( WHO) is to use Soap and water and hand rub gel of not less than 70% alcohol and disinfectant.
> I know which advice I will be taking.


If you'd bothered to read the whole CDC report other than the Headline you would have seen that it had been reviewed and updated On March 6th 2020. 

And these two both from CDC.Gov from 17 & 18th March 2020. BLEACH WORKS

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prepare/prevention.html
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prepare/disinfecting-your-home.html


----------



## Pesky Wesky

WEforum (World Economic Forum)


> Products containing bleach, alcohol or hydrogen peroxide are the best at killing off germs


https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/clean-kill-coronavirus-covid19-safety-health/.


----------



## Exeter

snikpoh said:


> *I have yet to see evidence of this from a valid source - I hope I'm wrong.*
> 
> Maybe your town hall know something that others don't - no such advise for us



https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...revention.html
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...your-home.html


----------



## Alcalaina

snikpoh said:


> I have yet to see evidence of this from a valid source - I hope I'm wrong.
> 
> Maybe your town hall know something that others don't - no such advise for us


Are they not spraying public spaces in your town? The rest of the country seems to be doing it. Madrid for example.

https://www.lavanguardia.com/politi...-con-hipoclorito-sodico-para-desinfectar.html



> Sodium hypochlorite is a solid white powder, but is more commonly used dissolved in water. *Solutions of sodium hypochlorite are commonly referred to as bleach*, although household bleach also contains small amounts of several other compounds, including sodium hydroxide and calcium hypochlorite.


And Valencia:

Valencia limpiará sus calles con lejía


----------



## Alcalaina

Alcalaina said:


> Are they not spraying public spaces in your town? The rest of the country seems to be doing it. Madrid for example.
> 
> https://www.lavanguardia.com/politi...-con-hipoclorito-sodico-para-desinfectar.html
> 
> 
> And Valencia:
> 
> Valencia limpiará sus calles con lejía


And yes, Ontinyent too! 

https://valenciaplaza.com/ume-desinfecta-residencias-calles-ontinyent


----------



## Williams2

Attention Sanitas health insurance users - check your email today, 
as Sanitas are offering the following during the lockdown.

Quote:
Sanitas offers video consultation with doctors of all specialties
While this exceptional situation lasts, you have access to
medical specialties by video consultation at no additional cost,
you will not need to travel to make your medical consultations.

More than 2,300 doctors connected with you!

Access your private Mi Sanitas area in the App or on the web
and follow these steps:

1. My dates
2. Ask for online appointment
3. Choose the specialty
4. Type of appointment: video consultation

On the day of the appointment, a few minutes before the time, access
your private Mi Sanitas area of the App or on the web, to speak 
with your doctor from home.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - -- - -- - - - - - - - - 

A great idea BUT I hope such services are also going to be offered by 
other health insurance providers, as well as being in the pipeline with the
Centro de Saluds, as the lockdown continues.


----------



## Lynn R

Williams2 said:


> Attention Sanitas health insurance users - check your email today,
> as Sanitas are offering the following during the lockdown.
> 
> Quote:
> Sanitas offers video consultation with doctors of all specialties
> While this exceptional situation lasts, you have access to
> medical specialties by video consultation at no additional cost,
> you will not need to travel to make your medical consultations.
> 
> More than 2,300 doctors connected with you!
> 
> Access your private Mi Sanitas area in the App or on the web
> and follow these steps:
> 
> 1. My dates
> 2. Ask for online appointment
> 3. Choose the specialty
> 4. Type of appointment: video consultation
> 
> On the day of the appointment, a few minutes before the time, access
> your private Mi Sanitas area of the App or on the web, to speak
> with your doctor from home.
> 
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - -- - -- - - - - - - - -
> 
> A great idea BUT I hope such services are also going to be offered by
> other health insurance providers as well as being in the pipeline with the
> Centro de Saluds, as the lockdown continues.


I even had an email from my electricity provider (Naturgy) the other day saying that they were making medical teleconsultas available to all their customers, at no charge. I didn't bother clicking on the link to find out how it would work, though.

It's a full time job these days reading all the emails coming through from all kinds of companies advising us how to contact them or telling us what they're doing to help the fight against CV.


----------



## Isobella

Williams2 said:


> Attention Sanitas health insurance users - check your email today,
> as Sanitas are offering the following during the lockdown.
> 
> Quote:
> Sanitas offers video consultation with doctors of all specialties
> While this exceptional situation lasts, you have access to
> medical specialties by video consultation at no additional cost,
> you will not need to travel to make your medical consultations.
> 
> More than 2,300 doctors connected with you!
> 
> Access your private Mi Sanitas area in the App or on the web
> and follow these steps:
> 
> 1. My dates
> 2. Ask for online appointment
> 3. Choose the specialty
> 4. Type of appointment: video consultation
> 
> On the day of the appointment, a few minutes before the time, access
> your private Mi Sanitas area of the App or on the web, to speak
> with your doctor from home.
> 
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - -- - -- - - - - - - - -
> 
> A great idea BUT I hope such services are also going to be offered by
> other health insurance providers, as well as being in the pipeline with the
> Centro de Saluds, as the lockdown continues.


Personally I would prefer my own GP who has my history. Suppose it’s ok. For a second opinion if anxious.


----------



## Monkey104

Exeter said:


> If you'd bothered to read the whole CDC report other than the Headline you would have seen that it had been reviewed and updated On March 6th 2020.
> 
> And these two both from CDC.Gov from 17 & 18th March 2020. BLEACH WORKS
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prepare/prevention.html
> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prepare/disinfecting-your-home.html


I did but there was still no mention of an update regarding documentation of the effect of the virus on surfaces.
Mind you from a US Govt agency that allowed the Reston virus ( a form of Ebola in monkeys ) not once but 3 times to escape in to their laboratories I would be doubtful of anything they say!

But hey, each to their own.


----------



## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> And yes, Ontinyent too!
> 
> https://valenciaplaza.com/ume-desinfecta-residencias-calles-ontinyent


Yes, here too. The army was spraying streets in my area a couple of days ago. 

Thge areas around the big bins are, I believe, sprayed daily.


----------



## Exeter

Monkey104 said:


> I did but there was still no mention of an update regarding documentation of the effect of the virus on surfaces.
> Mind you from a US Govt agency that allowed the Reston virus ( a form of Ebola in monkeys ) not once but 3 times to escape in to their laboratories I would be doubtful of anything they say!
> 
> But hey, each to their own.


Well maybe as you seem to mistrust the CDC and your preferred source is W.H.O have a little read of their current information below confirming all that has been said in this thread. *That Bleach kills Covid 19 on surfaces.*

https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/q-a-coronaviruses

"_A recent review of the survival of human coronaviruses on surfaces found large variability, ranging from 2 hours to 9 days (11). The survival time depends on a number of factors, including the type of surface, temperature, relative humidity and specific strain of the virus. The same review also found that effective inactivation could be achieved within 1 minute using common disinfectants, such as 70% ethanol or sodium hypochlorite_"

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200317-covid-19-how-long-does-the-coronavirus-last-on-surfaces

Happy reading.


----------



## Monkey104

Exeter said:


> Well maybe as you seem to mistrust the CDC and your preferred source is W.H.O have a little read of their current information below confirming all that has been said in this thread. *That Bleach kills Covid 19 on surfaces.*
> 
> https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/q-a-coronaviruses
> 
> "_A recent review of the survival of human coronaviruses on surfaces found large variability, ranging from 2 hours to 9 days (11). The survival time depends on a number of factors, including the type of surface, temperature, relative humidity and specific strain of the virus. The same review also found that effective inactivation could be achieved within 1 minute using common disinfectants, such as 70% ethanol or sodium hypochlorite_"
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200317-covid-19-how-long-does-the-coronavirus-last-on-surfaces
> 
> Happy reading
> 
> I stand corrected! I didn’t read that as well as I thought I had!


----------



## andyviola

The stats are so so bad..we couldn't be in a worse country in that regard.

Anyone have theories why its so uncontained here? Feels like ages and haven't reached peak yet even 11 days after Lockdown.... depressing

(Virus is carried on droplets thats why stays longest on hard surfaces. On clothes the water of droplet gets absorbed)


----------



## Simon22

andyviola said:


> The stats are so so bad..we couldn't be in a worse country in that regard.
> 
> Anyone have theories why its so uncontained here? Feels like ages and haven't reached peak yet even 11 days after Lockdown.... depressing
> 
> (Virus is carried on droplets thats why stays longest on hard surfaces. On clothes the water of droplet gets absorbed)


We're so tactile here, kissing hello and things like the waitress at the cafe will touch your arm as she walks away. Very easy to transmit and we were too slow stopping that. 

They also let all the Madrid families go off round the country for their holidays, they obviously had some infection and then spread it round when they arrived.

The government has done an admirable job otherwise, just a couple of weeks late. 

We should see better results soon as most people have been careful for a couple of weeks.


----------



## andyviola

Agree. Yes i was going to say the touchy feely thing but was worried id be shot down 😘


----------



## Lynn R

andyviola said:


> Anyone have theories why its so uncontained here? Feels like ages and haven't reached peak yet even 11 days after Lockdown.... depressing


At least one Government Minister (the Transport Minister if I remember rightly) said just after the lockdown started that they didn't expect to see a downward trend in new cases until around 10 April. Given the incubation period it would be unrealistic to see results in the first couple of weeks.

I don't think Americans are particularly touchy-feely, are they, and they now have more cases than China. Trump says it's because of the amount of testing that's been done, but the actual news about how many Americans have been tested doesn't bear that out.


----------



## andyviola

Let's hope so Lynn.i thought incubation period 11 days but let's see


----------



## Simon22

Lynn R said:


> At least one Government Minister (the Transport Minister if I remember rightly) said just after the lockdown started that they didn't expect to see a downward trend in new cases until around 10 April. Given the incubation period it would be unrealistic to see results in the first couple of weeks.
> 
> I don't think Americans are particularly touchy-feely, are they, and they now have more cases than China. Trump says it's because of the amount of testing that's been done, but the actual news about how many Americans have been tested doesn't bear that out.


The Americans are sharers, food, drink etc. I think their "leader" made it seem like no-one was at risk so no precautions were taken. Also they have until yesterday still been going to church, hundreds gathered together. They are in for a rough time I think.


----------



## andyviola

Yes they are far more religious than uk


----------



## mrypg9

Simon22 said:


> We're so tactile here, kissing hello and things like the waitress at the cafe will touch your arm as she walks away. Very easy to transmit and we were too slow stopping that.
> 
> They also let all the Madrid families go off round the country for their holidays, they obviously had some infection and then spread it round when they arrived.
> 
> The government has done an admirable job otherwise, just a couple of weeks late.
> 
> We should see better results soon as most people have been careful for a couple of weeks.


I believe Andalusia is either one of or the region with the fewest number of cases and fatalities. Malaga is the worst affected province.
Make of that what you will.
There was allegedly an 'influx' of Madrilenos fleeing the capital for their second homes here. 

It's interesting. People (some people) see politicians as interfering useless incompetent tossers, forgetting that 'politicians' are not some extra-terrestrial species alien to normal humankind but merely ordinary, mostly decent folk who decide to take on responsibility for helping organise and manage the lives of their fellow citizens. 
Yet when a crisis arises people look to the state to find immediate solutions. Politicians are expected to have hindsight as well as foresight. What they actually do of course is to make judgments based on information supplied by 'expert' advisors.

Mistakes will be made because humans err. At a time of national emergency it's the responsibility of politicians to put aside differences and work together. Casado pledged he would do that but his promise barely lasted a week. Torra behaved as one would expect, attempting to make political capital out of a human crisis.
Now we have once more the emergence of the North-South divide over the urgent issue of refinancing Europe's economies post-crisis in an economic situation that may dwarf 2008 and 2012 in severity.

The only national leader of stature and experience is Merkel although she is on the way out. In 2012 she bowed to German public opinion and refused to support a concerted Eurozone effort to inject liquidity into the hard pressed southern economies. Hopefully she will as a final 'good deed' give her backing to the Corona bond scheme and throw a life-line to Spain and Italy in their time of need.
We live in interesting times.


----------



## andyviola

Food shops excluded i hope?!


----------



## Isobella

Simon22 said:


> We're so tactile here, kissing hello and things like the waitress at the cafe will touch your arm as she walks away. Very easy to transmit and we were too slow stopping that.
> 
> They also let all the Madrid families go off round the country for their holidays, they obviously had some infection and then spread it round when they arrived.
> 
> The government has done an admirable job otherwise, just a couple of weeks late.
> 
> We should see better results soon as most people have been careful for a couple of weeks.


 3000 Madrilenos also flew in to Liverpool for a football match, the UK was stupid enough to allow it.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> At least one Government Minister (the Transport Minister if I remember rightly) said just after the lockdown started that they didn't expect to see a downward trend in new cases until around 10 April. Given the incubation period it would be unrealistic to see results in the first couple of weeks.


They did say that Lynn, right from the start and it has been much repeated by the health Minister and Sánchez


----------



## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> I believe Andalusia is either one of or the region with the fewest number of cases and fatalities.


I wouldn't say one of the regions with the fewest numbers of cases, as of today Andalucia has the sixth highest number of cases. However, earlier in the week it was the fifth highest, so not doing too badly.


----------



## Alcalaina

Lynn R said:


> I wouldn't say one of the regions with the fewest numbers of cases, as of today Andalucia has the sixth highest number of cases. However, earlier in the week it was the fifth highest, so not doing too badly.


But it has a much bigger population than most regions, so in absolute terms there will be more cases.

You can see on this site that it has a low number of cases in percentage terms. 42 cases per 100,000 inhabitants, compared to 68 in Valencia and 164 in Catalonia. As for Madrid I daren't even look.

https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20200327/mapa-del-coronavirus-espana/2004681.shtml


----------



## andyviola

Pesky Wesky said:


> Lynn R said:
> 
> 
> 
> At least one Government Minister (the Transport Minister if I remember rightly) said just after the lockdown started that they didn't expect to see a downward trend in new cases until around 10 April. Given the incubation period it would be unrealistic to see results in the first couple of weeks.
> 
> 
> 
> They did say that Lynn, right from the start and it has been much repeated by the health Minister and Sánchez
Click to expand...

Permission to panic if still rising after Good Friday Captain Mainwaring?


----------



## Lynn R

andyviola said:


> Permission to panic if still rising after Good Friday Captain Mainwaring?


Pull yourself together man! Isn't that what Captain Mainwaring would have said?

Panicking never did anybody any good, in whatever emergency.


----------



## andyviola

Only an element of panic can energize people into action but after the fact yes it's futile.
Anyways **** summer off beaches if not in control by then i feel.


----------



## andyviola

Yes Telegraph has longish article on why Spain so bad and essentially government messed up: "Bad decisions taken a month ago - or more accurately a lack of decisions - are now bearing a terrible fruit. "


----------



## Simon22

andyviola said:


> Yes Telegraph has longish article on why Spain so bad and essentially government messed up: "Bad decisions taken a month ago - or more accurately a lack of decisions - are now bearing a terrible fruit. "


and yet the US and UK watched what happened here and still failed to act, I hope we see some improvement soon but I fully expect the lockdown to be extended further.


----------



## andyviola

Yes even half way through today deaths is near 500 so yesterday's 792 will certainly be surpassed for yet another peak.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

andyviola said:


> Yes Telegraph has longish article on why Spain so bad and essentially government messed up: "Bad decisions taken a month ago - or more accurately a lack of decisions - are now bearing a terrible fruit. "


 As I said somewhere else, of course bad decisions have been made in Spain.
Have good decisions been made anywhere?
I think the British newspapers are under orders to distract from the situation in the UK!


----------



## andyviola

Dunno Pesky i am just the messenger


----------



## Jumar

We're on "easy" lockdown, being on a secure golf resort and being preached to by the "committee", some of whom have been seen heading to friends' houses for Sunday lunch!!!

How do we deal with that???


----------



## andyviola

Haha just stop people from Madrid and Barcelona coming there as if your...ahmmm...life depended on it.


----------



## stevesainty

https://www.elmundo.es/espana/2020/03/28/5e7f866ffc6c8365018b456e.html

Just read in El Mundo that non essential workers will cease from working from Monday for 2 weeks. This decision to be ratified tomorrow

Reverso Translation to English


The President of the Government, Pedro Sánchez, announced on Saturday, in an extraordinary hearing, the decision to shut down all "non-essential" economic activities from 30 March to 9 April, that is, those that are not defined as indispensable in the decree of the state of alarm.

This will be approved this Sunday in an extraordinary Council of Ministers. The affected workers will have, during the eight working days -10 days of paralysis, including the weekend of 4 and 5 April- provided for by the measure, a paid leave and will have to recover lost working hours gradually from the moment the crisis is overcome.

"All workers will have to stay at home from Monday 30 March to Thursday 9 April, both included, as they do on a weekend," he explained before adding that they will all keep their wages in the same way as during vacation periods.

Sanchez thus tightens the measures of the state of alarm by restricting economic activity to try to stop the expansion of the virus and the accelerated transmission of contagions. It does so in view of the fact that, according to experts, in the coming days, the first of April, the health system could go into total collapse.

"As we approach the crest of the wave (of contagions), the virus hits us mercilessly. That’s why now is the time to step up the fight. Reducing mobility is going in the right direction, "he stressed.

In this way, the objective is to reduce the movement of people and reduce social contact to the maximum in order to bring it up to the level of weekends, when most of the industrial and commercial activities do not have to rest. The President of the Government has specified that this decision will not affect the media sector that is considered essential.

The aim, he explained, is to slow down the number of new infections and to avoid a complete saturation of intensive care units (Icus) in hospitals. The president has not ruled out further action over the next two weeks.

"I hope," he said, "that the results of this collective effort will be felt in the coming days. In the meantime, all I can offer is sacrifice, resistance and the moral of victory".

Sánchez also referred to the "essential" work that the European Union must do to overcome the pandemic and its serious effects on the economy. " This disaster is testing the European Union, which must rise to the challenge and must not let the citizens down. This time Europe cannot fail. We need evidence of commitment from the EU. We need strength, we need solidarity.

However, the president wanted to show his confidence that in the end unity of action will prevail: "If Europe wants, Europe can". " The Union must respond


----------



## andyviola

Thanks. I best not put heating on as we pretty low on diesel! Don't think a lorry with diesel will be pulling up for a few months....


----------



## Pesky Wesky

andyviola said:


> Thanks. I best not put heating on as we pretty low on diesel! Don't think a lorry with diesel will be pulling up for a few months....


 I think the supply of energy is deemed an essential service.
If you are low you might want to get in touch with your suppliers directly as who knows, this could also be extended for another week


> *Proveedores de servicios esenciales.* Con las nuevas restricciones, fuentes del Gobierno entienden que todas las empresas que operan para suministrar productos y servicios a estos servicios esenciales son las únicas que podrán seguir operando del 30 de marzo hasta el 9 de abril. Entre ellas se incluirán actividades relacionadas con el sector primario y de alimentación, como los cultivos y la pesca, la fabricación de ropa de trabajo o de productos farmacéuticos, y las vinculadas con* el transporte y distribución de todos los productos considerados básicos, desde energía a agua o telecomunicaciones.* Aunque habrá que esperar hasta el domingo para conocer el detalle de la medida, Sánchez ha adelantado en la rueda de prensa de este sábado que serán las ya mencionadas en los decretos del estado de alarma.


https://elpais.com/economia/2020-03-28/que-actividades-se-consideran-esenciales.html


Will be confirmed in a meeting tomorrow, Sunday


----------



## andyviola

Thanks!


----------



## Simon22

andyviola said:


> Thanks!


We've had gas bottles delivered this week, you need heating, especially the coming week


----------



## andyviola

Is it often this cold in late March? As it's our first year we are bit shocked?


----------



## andyviola

Jesus wept....

In other European countries, the early numbers of deaths are also following that pattern of doubling every two to three days.

One notable exception is Spain, where the number of deaths does appear to be rising faster than elsewhere (every two-and-a-quarter days) well past their 1,000 death, although it is unclear why.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

andyviola said:


> Is it often this cold in late March? As it's our first year we are bit shocked?


It depends. The weather can never really be "depended on" until after Easter, and Easter is a little early this year. Once it even snowed here on Mother's day, first Sunday in May, and not just a few flakes. but a real snow fall that covered. This week that's just finishing, or finished, one day the cloud lifted (which is unusual for Madrid anyway), the sky turned that beautiful shade of blue and I was able to sit outside (facing south).
Next day there were snow flurries! Last night I put on socks in bed. something I haven't done for years.
Never count on the weather until it's Hot and you just know that every day's going to be Hot!


----------



## andyviola

Oh dear sad face hahaha


----------



## tarot650

andyviola said:


> Is it often this cold in late March? As it's our first year we are bit shocked?[/Q
> 
> 
> It is what it is.Be interesting to see what you say when we are in the high 30's day after day.Probably be too hot for you then.jajajaja


----------



## andyviola

tarot650 said:


> andyviola said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it often this cold in late March? As it's our first year we are bit shocked?[/Q
> 
> 
> It is what it is.Be interesting to see what you say when we are in the high 30's day after day.Probably be too hot for you then.jajajaja
> 
> 
> 
> we arrived last May and loved the heat thanks
Click to expand...


----------



## tarot650

andyviola said:


> tarot650 said:
> 
> 
> 
> we arrived last May and loved the heat thanks
> 
> 
> 
> Thats nice
Click to expand...


----------



## andyviola

tarot650 said:


> andyviola said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thats nice
> 
> 
> 
> yup pool got to 24C which is adorable
Click to expand...


----------



## tarot650

andyviola said:


> tarot650 said:
> 
> 
> 
> yup pool got to 24C which is adorable
> 
> 
> 
> Well that's nice.When you get a good few years under your belt you take the good with the bad.jajajaja
Click to expand...


----------



## Monkey104

andyviola said:


> we arrived last May and loved the heat thanks


We arrived last April and have adapted very well. I knew our lass didn’t like the cold so we had a pellet burner fitted with central heating.
I can’t wait til We have a few years under our belt so we can take the good with the bad&#55358;&#56689;


----------



## Isobella

andyviola said:


> yup pool got to 24C which is adorable


Pools in the South are much hotter. Ours sometimes has reached 30C.
I think where you live the winters are colder than other Spanish coasts. Also you become acclimatised after living there for a while and temperatures that would feel warm in the UK feel chilly.

We were sat out in the garden UK this week. Temperature was 14 but wall thermometer was 30C felt very pleasant but not out of the sun, cold wind.


----------



## mrypg9

andyviola said:


> we arrived last May and loved the heat thanks


We arrived here in December. The temperature was around 18C. We had left Prague three days earlier in snow and temperatures well below freezing.

The first summer we were here we spent almost every day lying besides or in the pool. We swam early in the morning and at midnight under the stars.
Year two we cut down on our sunbathing and by year three we did as our Spanish neighbours did....kept in the shade during the hottest part of the day.
For the past nine means years I have found my favourite seasons are autumn and spring. Summer temperatures here reached the low 40s last year. My casita doesn't have aircon. I do have a pool which I use early in the day and late at night.

Last week I was watching TV and there were pictures of snow around Madrid. In 2006 and 2018 heavy rainfalls caused damage and the deaths of several people. Weather comes in many varieties in Spain and varies according to region. I'm not a geographer but I think I'm right in saying that Spain has two climates, Continental and Oceanic. If I'm wrong some more knowledgeable person will put me right.

There's a lot more to enjoy here than the weather


----------



## ccm47

Mary, there are *13* different climate types in Spain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Spain.
As part of our free evening class beginners level Spanish comprehension homework some 8 years ago our class was given a simplified version of this to read and then write appropriate answers. Geography was not my strong point but this certainly stuck!
The only other one to stick was about the changing face of Spanish agriculture due to the introduction of commercial greenhouses! Boring in many ways but true.


----------



## xabiaxica

https://www.javea.com/denuncian-a-u...OLCboxcYWJBz4O5lHsGKqLkCxAg10Hd577VISb5vNBeKk


This family of Madrileños thought it didn't apply to them. They managed to get to Jávea for a holiday, complete with the nanny, and went to the beach!

Caught by the police.


----------



## andyviola

Haha.

Huge queues of traffic just outside our seaside town in Catalonia with police checking if people attempting to (illegally) escape to their second homes.


----------



## andyviola

Cases shot up yesterday after a 4 day downward trend.
All European countries need to hard a thorough review of their pandemic mitigation after this...in particular treat an outbreak in any European country as on their doorstep..as for example a flight from Milan to Valencia for footy in February proved... they all are.

On the plus side my online shopping arrived even though they had refunded my payment...


----------



## xabiaxica

xabiaxica said:


> https://www.javea.com/denuncian-a-u...OLCboxcYWJBz4O5lHsGKqLkCxAg10Hd577VISb5vNBeKk
> 
> 
> This family of Madrileños thought it didn't apply to them. They managed to get to Jávea for a holiday, complete with the nanny, and went to the beach!
> 
> Caught by the police.


Just to add. The beach they chose is out of the way & difficult to get to. What's more it has been closed for years due to the danger of falling rocks. 

What makes you think that they knew *exactly *what they were doing, & didn't expect to be caught?

The (dangerous) pathway to it is overlooked by some houses, so I imagine that a local resident called the police.


----------



## Overandout

andyviola said:


> On the plus side my online shopping arrived even though they had refunded my payment...


Be careful with that. Spain has its own version of the "Unsolicited Goods and Services Act" which makes it a crime to keep things sent to you in error or that you haven't paid for.

I checked this when a Thermomix turned up by post one day that I knew nothing about!!!


----------



## andyviola

Ok thanks. I am only joking..i fully expect them to charge me the correct amount soon (there were 10 products they couldn't supply so cost was 30 euros less.. though strange they didnt just subtract that amount from my card)


----------



## Simon22

andyviola said:


> Ok thanks. I am only joking..i fully expect them to charge me the correct amount soon (there were 10 products they couldn't supply so cost was 30 euros less.. though strange they didnt just subtract that amount from my card)


Many systems require a refund and resell, so yes you should get the correct charge later.


----------



## andyviola

Thanks Simon. I was also relieved they didn't check that i was very old or disabled 😁


----------



## xabiaxica

Isobella said:


> Perhaps not but the UK figures have been discussed on here a few times. Is there nothing else to discuss about Spain then, such as I mentioned above. People and Unions politicking yadda yadda.


No, nothing.

We're on lockdown & into week 3 - & the vast majority are sticking to it. It's pretty much 'normal' for us now.

The govt tightened it as of yesterday & I've not seen anything in the press about unions kicking off, nor other political parties going against the decisions.

In public at least, the parties are pulling together on this.


----------



## Isobella

xabiaxica said:


> No, nothing.
> 
> We're on lockdown & into week 3 - & the vast majority are sticking to it. It's pretty much 'normal' for us now.
> 
> The govt tightened it as of yesterday & I've not seen anything in the press about unions kicking off, nor other political parties going against the decisions.
> 
> In public at least, the parties are pulling together on this.


Not even this Health workers and Unions say new hospital is a disaster, lengthy article.

https://english.elpais.com/society/...rids-ifema-field-hospital-its-a-disaster.html


----------



## Overandout

xabiaxica said:


> No, nothing.
> 
> We're on lockdown & into week 3 - & the vast majority are sticking to it. It's pretty much 'normal' for us now.
> 
> The govt tightened it as of yesterday & I've not seen anything in the press about unions kicking off, nor other political parties going against the decisions.
> 
> *In public at least, the parties are pulling together on this.*


I would say that is an overly optimistic view of the political panorama here. Have you not seen Casado threatening to vote against extending the state of alarm?

The opposition in Spain are lining their ducks up nicely to start shooting as soon as minimum morality levels permit.

According to the news today approx half a million "autonomos" will lose their businesses during April.


----------



## xabiaxica

Overandout said:


> I would say that is an overly optimistic view of the political panorama here. Have you not seen Casado threatening to vote against extending the state of alarm?
> 
> The opposition in Spain are lining their ducks up nicely to start shooting as soon as minimum morality levels permit.
> 
> According to the news today approx half a million "autonomos" will lose their businesses during April.


Well I did say 'in public'. 


Yes I'm sure that as soon as it's all over it will be back to normal political aggro. Casado won't win, much as he postures, & probably won't even vote against it.


I hadn't seen the news today, but yes, the govt help is unlikely to be enough to save a lot of autónomos - but then we're not treated well at the best of times considering how much we pay on a monthly basis when compared to other countries.


----------



## Overandout

xabiaxica said:


> Well I did say 'in public'.
> 
> 
> Yes I'm sure that as soon as it's all over it will be back to normal political aggro. Casado won't win, much as he postures, & probably won't even vote against it.
> 
> 
> I hadn't seen the news today, but yes, the govt help is unlikely to be enough to save a lot of autónomos - but then we're not treated well at the best of times considering how much we pay on a monthly basis when compared to other countries.


I'd say that Casado is being quite public in his open criticism of the government.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

*Opposition Popular Party backs stricter lockdown, but slams government “improvisation”*

*Spain’s biggest labor unions also support the move, but businesses warn of “negative impact” on companies*

https://english.elpais.com/politics...kdown-but-slams-government-improvisation.html


----------



## andyviola

Gloomy news on economy. Might stop being lazy and will be putting my car BEHIND my drive way gate as much as possible now times gonna get worse!

Analysts from French bank Societe Generale said the Spanish economy, which was already slowing before the outbreak, is expected to contract by 6.6% this year, reversing the 2% growth in 2019. 

China


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> *Opposition Popular Party backs stricter lockdown, but slams government “improvisation”*
> 
> *Spain’s biggest labor unions also support the move, but businesses warn of “negative impact” on companies*
> 
> https://english.elpais.com/politics...kdown-but-slams-government-improvisation.html


Crazy really. Everyone is improvising! No country *knows* how to deal with this effectively. 

Of course there will be a negative impact on many if not most businesses, and the world economy. That really is unavoidable as far as I can see.

I agree that Spain could have locked down sooner, but hindsight is 20:20.


----------



## andyviola

Spain saw what was happening to other countries when they had first cases but they decided womens day more important.


----------



## Lynn R

andyviola said:


> Spain saw what was happening to other countries when they had first cases but they decided womens day more important.


And some of the opposition parties making so much political capital out of that should be reminded that Vox went ahead with a rally involving 9,000 people the day after, resulting in several of their senior representatives becoming infected. For them to be critical is pure hypocrisy.


----------



## andyviola

Lynn R said:


> And some of the opposition parties making so much political capital out of that should be reminded that Vox went ahead with a rally involving 9,000 people the day after, resulting in several of their senior representatives becoming infected. For them to be critical is pure hypocrisy.


agree and it just makes it more depressing that NO political party had a clue about the dangers of this, despite HUGE warnings elsewhere. Countries like uk and spain are simply arrogant if they assumed what was happening in Italy and China could not happen to them so fast.


----------



## Lynn R

andyviola said:


> agree and it just makes it more depressing that NO political party had a clue about the dangers of this, despite HUGE warnings elsewhere. Countries like uk and spain are simply arrogant if they assumed what was happening in Italy and China could not happen to them so fast.


You only have to re-read the original Coronavirus thread in La Tasca to be reminded that some of those who are now the most vocal in promoting the lockdown and the strictest possible interpretation of it were originally accusing people who did see the danger ahead of panic and hysteria, saying it was no worse than the flu and scoffing at calls for international flights to be halted (indeed one poster even accused me of only saying that should be done because I stood to lose money on a holiday flight booking). 

The only person I have seen have the good grace to admit that they have changed their opinion in the light of how things have progressed is Alcalaina.


----------



## andyviola

Yes Lynn. The virus is (by far) spread mostly indoors. However many people just don't act sensibly so lockdown was a no brainer as it stops people GOING to those indoor places (trains, offices etc). House Arrest.
So its keep it simple stupid and total lockdown... as wise as staying indoors in ww2!


----------



## Williams2

xabiaxica said:


> https://www.javea.com/denuncian-a-u...OLCboxcYWJBz4O5lHsGKqLkCxAg10Hd577VISb5vNBeKk
> 
> 
> This family of Madrileños thought it didn't apply to them. They managed to get to Jávea for a holiday, complete with the nanny, and went to the beach!
> 
> Caught by the police.


Reminds me of Jacob Rees-Mogg and family, I wonder how they are faring during the lockdown,
as Jacob has 6 children to contend with at home.


----------



## andyviola

Haha Rees Mogg famously said sing god saves the queen when washing your hands to gauge 20s. Sadly it's about 15s...


----------



## mrypg9

Easy to sit at a keyboard and say ‘the Government should have acted sooner’ and other criticisms. Being in lockdown and bored doesn’t turn one into an epidemologist, virologist, economist and so on.
Governments have to juggle with many variables, each with its own importance, How to rank them????
Public health is of vital importance. So is a healthy economy. When we are at less risk and people can go back to work they will need viable businesses to go back to. I am so pleased that we are no longer in business in the UK. I doubt we would have come through. Bad for us but worse for our almost thirty employees and their families, all with mortgages to pay.
It’s bad enough keeping our shelter going. We’re managing with our three employees and a couple of volunteers. But our charity shop is closed and adoptions down to almost zero. We still have wages, dog food and vets’ bills to pay. We have cash reserves and have launched a funding appeal but many of our donors are strapped for cash in these circumstances.

Just be thankful you are not running the government, any government because you will be damned whwtever you do. What should your priority be, saving lives or keeping a sound economy going for the immediate and medium term future? And does Casado really want the responsibility of taking over now? Or is he just playing petty political point scoring to weaken Sanchez’ position later?
I suspct the latter.

As for the seriousness of this current pandemic—yes, it’s very serious, as much if not more for its effect on the global economy as on the number of deaths. When it’s all over and the figures can be tallied it will be. Interesting to compare deaths from COVID with deaths from other diseases over the same period. Interesting to consider the ratio of death to recovery rates and to focus on the age dimensions of mortality rates. I read somewhere that over 80% of fatalities are in the over 70. age bracket and already with chronic conditions. At the risk of being callous, they would have probably died within a year or two anyway. Im not expecting to live to a hundred. The young, not so young and fit have with few tragic exceptions recovered or not been infected.

As is only to be expected in the midst of any crisis the media and much discussion will focus on the. immediate threat. When things get back to normal as they will after optimistic hopes for a bright new future have been dispelled, as sadly they will be, then wiil be the time to step back, review and draw meaningful conclusions to apply to the next criisis whichever form it takes.


----------



## jimenato

Lynn R said:


> You only have to re-read the original Coronavirus thread in La Tasca to be reminded that some of those who are now the most vocal in promoting the lockdown and the strictest possible interpretation of it were originally accusing people who did see the danger ahead of panic and hysteria, saying it was no worse than the flu and scoffing at calls for international flights to be halted (indeed one poster even accused me of only saying that should be done because I stood to lose money on a holiday flight booking).
> 
> The only person I have seen have the good grace to admit that they have changed their opinion in the light of how things have progressed is Alcalaina.


Well, the first 15 or so pages of that I have just read and - yes - quite an eye-opener.

Some posters were then openly scoffing the 'hysteria' of 'travel bans' and 'isolation' - the self-same posters are now admonishing people who go out for exercise - telling them to stay home.

Well done Baldi - the one who was consistently right.


----------



## Exeter

Good to see the Army are out in force in Torrox Costa....roadblocks and checking what people are doing.


----------



## Williams2

andyviola said:


> Haha Rees Mogg famously said sing god saves the queen when washing your hands to gauge 20s. Sadly it's about 15s...


Yes I can just picture the scene now in the Rees-Moggs ( seen better times ) home and the queue
for the bathroom as husband, wife, nanny and five or the six children form a queue outside, as they 
each take longer in the bathroom.
Of course the time doesn't get any shorter with Jacob insisting on singing, '_God save the Queen_'
and '_Rule Britannia_' during his 20 second handwash.


----------



## Tigerlillie

mrypg9 said:


> As is only to be expected in the midst of any crisis the media and much discussion will focus on the. immediate threat. When things get back to normal as they will after optimistic hopes for a bright new future have been dispelled, as sadly they will be, *then wiil be the time to step back, review and draw meaningful conclusions to apply to the next criisis whichever form it takes.*


This pandemic was predicted as far back as 2015 so I seriously doubt that lessons will be learned and appropriate action taken should there be another pandemic on the scale we have seen with this one.

The first article dates from 2015 the second 2017.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.3985#auth-14

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-017-07766-9

But what do experts know 'eh.


----------



## Megsmum

Lynn R said:


> You only have to re-read the original Coronavirus thread in La Tasca to be reminded that some of those who are now the most vocal in promoting the lockdown and the strictest possible interpretation of it were originally accusing people who did see the danger ahead of panic and hysteria, saying it was no worse than the flu and scoffing at calls for international flights to be halted (indeed one poster even accused me of only saying that should be done because I stood to lose money on a holiday flight booking).
> 
> The only person I have seen have the good grace to admit that they have changed their opinion in the light of how things have progressed is Alcalaina.


I personally, have never said it was only “flu” my argument was that testing everyone was a waste of time unless your going to then retest weekly. International flights are actually still going, technically I could fly back to Spain tomorrow. Those people at risk which we were told were the elderly and those with preexisting conditions, should have been and obviously are more cautious than others. Words like panic and hysteria came because, some were causing panic and hysteria around a subject they actually knew very little about. 


I think many saw the dangers ahead, it’s more that what can you, I or anyone else do to stop it? We are at the mercy of our individual governments, who clearly, everyone of them, were caught with their collective trousers down, I can’t think of any country who has got this right and we won’t know until the pandemic is over and we can reflect.
Simple facts are people were always going to carry on working if they needed to, food on table etc. 
However, It is, a lot worse in Europe than I thought it would be and fundamentally thats stems from a Italy and I’m still trying to get my head around why Italy is still seeing deaths at 800 a day, I’m equally staggered that the USA who banned international flights from China sooner than anyone else is now the number one infected country in the world. The deaths are truly awful, the spread is awful, but I’m not sure why but something about this doesn’t sit well with me and I am unsure what it is.


----------



## Isobella

mrypg9 said:


> Easy to sit at a keyboard and say ‘the Government should have acted sooner’ and other criticisms. Being in lockdown and bored doesn’t turn one into an epidemologist, virologist, economist and so on.
> Governments have to juggle with many variables, each with its own importance, How to rank them????
> Public health is of vital importance. So is a healthy economy. When we are at less risk and people can go back to work they will need viable businesses to go back to. I am so pleased that we are no longer in business in the UK. I doubt we would have come through. Bad for us but worse for our almost thirty employees and their families, all with mortgages to pay.
> It’s bad enough keeping our shelter going. We’re managing with our three employees and a couple of volunteers. But our charity shop is closed and adoptions down to almost zero. We still have wages, dog food and vets’ bills to pay. We have cash reserves and have launched a funding appeal but many of our donors are strapped for cash in these circumstances.
> 
> Just be thankful you are not running the government, any government because you will be damned whwtever you do. What should your priority be, saving lives or keeping a sound economy going for the immediate and medium term future? And does Casado really want the responsibility of taking over now? Or is he just playing petty political point scoring to weaken Sanchez’ position later?
> I suspct the latter.
> 
> As for the seriousness of this current pandemic—yes, it’s very serious, as much if not more for its effect on the global economy as on the number of deaths. When it’s all over and the figures can be tallied it will be. Interesting to compare deaths from COVID with deaths from other diseases over the same period. Interesting to consider the ratio of death to recovery rates and to focus on the age dimensions of mortality rates. I read somewhere that over 80% of fatalities are in the over 70. age bracket and already with chronic conditions. At the risk of being callous, they would have probably died within a year or two anyway. Im not expecting to live to a hundred. The young, not so young and fit have with few tragic exceptions recovered or not been infected.
> 
> As is only to be expected in the midst of any crisis the media and much discussion will focus on the. immediate threat. When things get back to normal as they will after optimistic hopes for a bright new future have been dispelled, as sadly they will be, then wiil be the time to step back, review and draw meaningful conclusions to apply to the next criisis whichever form it takes.


Good post. It is a bit early for inquests, especially the ones politicking. This was a bit naff from Ian Lavery Labour party chairman.

“By the way when something like this happens, we’re going to see lots of our own dying as a consequence. But, you know apart from that, it’s going to give the fantastic battalion of Labour Party members, community champions out there a great opportunity of showing how Labour, and why Labour, is best when it gets on the front foot and best when it gets people together.

We need to make sure that we do that, and community organising what a great opportunity it’s going to give us.“


----------



## Tigerlillie

Megsmum said:


> I personally, have never said it was only “flu” my argument was that testing everyone was a waste of time unless your going to then retest weekly. International flights are actually still going, technically I could fly back to Spain tomorrow. Those people at risk which we were told were the elderly and those with preexisting conditions, should have been and obviously are more cautious than others. Words like panic and hysteria came because, some were causing panic and hysteria around a subject they actually knew very little about.
> 
> 
> I think many saw the dangers ahead, it’s more that what can you, I or anyone else do to stop it? We are at the mercy of* our individual governments, who clearly, everyone of them, were caught with their collective trousers down*, I can’t think of any country who has got this right and we won’t know until the pandemic is over and we can reflect.
> Simple facts are people were always going to carry on working if they needed to, food on table etc.
> However, It is, a lot worse in Europe than I thought it would be and fundamentally thats stems from a Italy and I’m still trying to get my head around why Italy is still seeing deaths at 800 a day, I’m equally staggered that the USA who banned international flights from China sooner than anyone else is now the number one infected country in the world. The deaths are truly awful, the spread is awful, but I’m not sure why but something about this doesn’t sit well with me and I am unsure what it is.


There was no need for them to 'be caught with their trousers down' the information was out there, they chose to ignore it.

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/managing-epidemics-interactive.pdf


----------



## Williams2

Well looking across Europe it's taken little or no time at all to reestablish the old European, pre Schengen
Agreement national borders with checks at the borders where only Lorries delivering essentials are
being waved through across the borders.


----------



## mrypg9

Tigerlillie said:


> This pandemic was predicted as far back as 2015 so I seriously doubt that lessons will be learned and appropriate action taken should there be another pandemic on the scale we have seen with this one.
> 
> The first article dates from 2015 the second 2017.
> 
> https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.3985#auth-14
> 
> https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-017-07766-9
> 
> But what do experts know 'eh.


.

...When asked what worried him most in political life, British PM Harold MacMillan famously replied ‘Events, dear boy, events’.

Every crisis occurs in its own unique circumstances. The Black Death in the Middle Ages, the Great Plague of London in the seventeenth century, the Spanish flu of the twentieth century, all rolled out in their unique social, economic and technological setting

Whilst it may be the case that certain features are common to all of these disasters, the tools with which to combat them both economically and technologically varied greatly.

It may well be that the outcome of this crisis may be affected by the still unresolved outcome of other recent economic crises, those of 2008 and 2012. The reaction of governments the world over were more of the firefighting variety than long term stabilisation measures. The economic well- being of the world is still in the hands of the global financial markets with very little if any control by state governments.

How health crises are handled depends on economic factors and it’s obvious that it’s beyond the scope of individual nation states to sort out their own problem. What we’re seeing now is a repeat of the 2012 euro crisis when the wealthier northern EU member states refused to join in a common concerted effort to support the weaker peripheral states. Thebrefusal of a few richer states to join in with a common support mechanism - the Corona bond- reflects not only short- sightedness on their part but exposes the fundamental weakness of the post- Lisbon eurozone: there is a common monetary policy but no common fiscal policy.

Sorry to bring in Brexit but this goes to show the stupidity and ignorance of anyone prattling about ‘integrated Europe’. 

Pandemics arent just about viruses, they are about money, obviously.


----------



## Isobella

Megsmum said:


> I personally, have never said it was only “flu” my argument was that testing everyone was a waste of time unless your going to then retest weekly. International flights are actually still going, technically I could fly back to Spain tomorrow. Those people at risk which we were told were the elderly and those with preexisting conditions, should have been and obviously are more cautious than others. Words like panic and hysteria came because, some were causing panic and hysteria around a subject they actually knew very little about.
> 
> 
> I think many saw the dangers ahead, it’s more that what can you, I or anyone else do to stop it? We are at the mercy of our individual governments, who clearly, everyone of them, were caught with their collective trousers down, I can’t think of any country who has got this right and we won’t know until the pandemic is over and we can reflect.
> Simple facts are people were always going to carry on working if they needed to, food on table etc.
> However, It is, a lot worse in Europe than I thought it would be and fundamentally thats stems from a Italy and I’m still trying to get my head around why Italy is still seeing deaths at 800 a day, I’m equally staggered that the USA who banned international flights from China sooner than anyone else is now the number one infected country in the world. The deaths are truly awful, the spread is awful, but I’m not sure why but something about this doesn’t sit well with me and I am unsure what it is.


Not sure about China right now or Iran. They aren't the most transparent of countries. Claims in the Guardian there is social unrest in Southern Italy. then this

https://www.theguardian.com/global-...kdown-controls-raise-fears-for-worlds-poorest


----------



## mrypg9

Tigerlillie said:


> This pandemic was predicted as far back as 2015 so I seriously doubt that lessons will be learned and appropriate action taken should there be another pandemic on the scale we have seen with this one.
> 
> The first article dates from 2015 the second 2017.
> 
> https://www.nature.com/articles/nm.3985#auth-14
> 
> https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-017-07766-9
> 
> But what do experts know 'eh.


Predicting what may or may not happen isn’t the same as dealing with it.
Governments have to take risks, make choices, and like the ‘ experts’ are human and therefore fallible.

If as may well be the case the global economy goes into meltdown after the worst of
the pandemic is over the damage to human life and well- being may far exceed that caused by the virus itself.


----------



## Tigerlillie

mrypg9 said:


> Predicting what may or may not happen isn’t the same as dealing with it.
> Governments have to take risks, make choices, and like the ‘ experts’ are human and therefore fallible.
> 
> If as may well be the case the global economy goes into meltdown after the worst of
> the pandemic is over the damage to human life and well- being may far exceed that caused by the virus itself.


I agree with a lot of what you are saying but it doesn't deflect from the fact the information was out there and was ignored.
You'd have thought that countries and governments around the world would have learned lessons from the SARS outbreak in 2002/3, the H1N1 (swine flu) outbreak in 2009 or the Ebola outbreak in 2014 but no......


----------



## Juan C

I could have told you.

Hindsight is 100% accurate !!!!!!’


----------



## Alcalaina

andyviola said:


> Spain saw what was happening to other countries when they had first cases but they decided womens day more important.


Yes, the right-wing Vox party (who thiink women have far too many rights) have been making a big deal of this. Yet they had their own party conference in Madrid that same weekend...


----------



## Megsmum

Tigerlillie said:


> There was no need for them to 'be caught with their trousers down' the information was out there, they chose to ignore it.
> 
> https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/managing-epidemics-interactive.pdf





Tigerlillie said:


> I agree with a lot of what you are saying but it doesn't deflect from the fact the information was out there and was ignored.
> You'd have thought that countries and governments around the world would have learned lessons from the SARS outbreak in 2002/3, the H1N1 (swine flu) outbreak in 2009 or the Ebola outbreak in 2014 but no......



We all know that governments, whatever their color are led me economics. Has it always been thus and thus it will always be. What they ALL failed on was the public’s attitude. Europe is NOT China, actions out in place in China were never going to happen in the EU or anywhere else without strict enforcements and a fundamental change peoples attitudes to their “rights” freedom. It’s easy to control in countries where there are no rights. I am almost 100% sure that in ten years when covid20 arrives it all be the same situation again if not worse, because governments will look at a= deaths b= economy and work out what’s moré dispensable, pretty much guarantee it’ll be deaths that win out, and possibly much of the public NOT affected by Covid19 will agree especially those that are about to join the millions of unemployed, bankrupt companies etc etc. 
What’s a few deaths compared with thier economic success I don’t like that analogy but I suspect that’ll be the case. 

It’s all NHS NHS clap clap clap now, it’ll all be back to the same old on a year, missed appointments, A&E full of people with no real reason to be there, supermarket staff being spoken to like they’re lowest of the low. Airlines will be back to over inflated prices, people will, when money comes back, Disney world will be full again and a rise of 500 deaths in one day, as of yesterday figures, in the U.K. will simply be a dinner party discussion topic.

I’m not sure I like this world but I’m pretty sure it’s not that different to before


----------



## Pesky Wesky

andyviola said:


> Spain saw what was happening to other countries when they had first cases but they decided womens day more important.


 Just goes to show you can't please all of the people all of the time.
I happen to think that they wouldn't have been able to stop the march going ahead. The march in Madrid has become extremely important (indeed the marches in Spain in 2019 were world wide news). If the government had stopped it I think there would have been a backlash and I think women would have filled the streets anyway because it would have been seen as a violation of their rights.



It was due to take place on 8th of March, There were no measures in place at that time. Why is there not an outrage that the FIFA or who ever is in charge of football stopped football matches, concerts, political meetings (like Vox) weddings, 21st birthday parties, nightclubs and all the other places people gathered together that very same day?


Few people were taking this seriously. Few people, and by people I mean non politicians or medical people realised the magnitude of this even though we could see China and things kicking off in Italy.


When the Spanish government began to put measures in place, again mistakes were made but things started happening very quickly and it's since we have been on lockdown that I think it's sunk in for most.


So imho I think the opposition has grabbed on to the high profile march and are doing a good job of stirring it up just because they are hell bent on their own particular agenda.



I'm not saying that Sánchez hasn't made mistakes. He has, as has every government that has been faced with this, but I don't think the opposition is collaborating much past the basics as they are too interested in bringing down the coalition


----------



## kaipa

I totally agree with Pesky. It is easy to criticize now but if the march had been cancelled critics would have attacked the government under some precept and people would have defied it anyway. Also there were lots of people there surely they shouldn't have gone if they thought there was a risk. You cant really attack Sanchez and Inglesias. At the moment PP are acting like complete idiots causing unnecessary friction when it is the last thing s country needs. As for VOX does anyone really take thd suggestion of sacking the government and then reforming another one with all of them shouting at once believe that is a good thing
.


----------



## mrypg9

We are currently experiencing a pandemic which has caught the world's attention because it's happening in the rich countries and not in Africa where these things usually happen. China has to be counted as among the rich countries - after all, it owns a huge quantity of US Treasury and corporate bonds as well as an awful lot of American mortgages. There is a certain amount of perception that plagues are for the poor and when they hit the rich panic and hysteria tend to overshadow cool judgment. COVID -19 is THE hot story du jour. So deep thought and considered judgments get put aside.

I'm not saying that we're not in a crisis situation. But one of the little remarked on but nevertheless true is that the world is constantly in some kind of crisis situation. Climate change, uncontrollable finance, obscene inequality, the rise of fundamentalisms, the rise in populism of right and left (imo not per se a bad thing), the existence in unsafe hands of large stocks of thermo nuclear weapons...all these as well as more minor issues which are still of importance to those directly affected by them. All of which land daily on politicians' desks. How to prioritise? Another terrorist attack along the lines of 9/11 will knock this virus off the headlines.

Just as when unemployment reached unprecedented levels of 25% plus, 75% were still in employment however precarious, it's a fact that the majority of the population of Spain and elsewhere will either not be infected by the virus or if infected will recover without hospitalisation. Deaths from common old boring 'flu, heart and lung disease, cancer, will continue to increase. Many of these deaths are preventable given common support to measures against them.

Casado and Abascal have exposed themselves for what most of us knew thy were. Political chancers, straw men, not to be allowed near positions of real power. Iglesias is fast learning the sharp dividing line between ideology and reality, between ideals and real-world constraints.


----------



## Tigerlillie

Megsmum said:


> We all know that governments, whatever their color are led me economics. Has it always been thus and thus it will always be. What they ALL failed on was the public’s attitude. Europe is NOT China, actions out in place in China were never going to happen in the EU or anywhere else without strict enforcements and a fundamental change peoples attitudes to their “rights” freedom. It’s easy to control in countries where there are no rights. I am almost 100% sure that in ten years when covid20 arrives it all be the same situation again if not worse, because governments will look at a= deaths b= economy and work out what’s moré dispensable, pretty much guarantee it’ll be deaths that win out, and possibly much of the public NOT affected by Covid19 will agree especially those that are about to join the millions of unemployed, bankrupt companies etc etc.
> What’s a few deaths compared with thier economic success I don’t like that analogy but I suspect that’ll be the case.
> 
> *It’s all NHS NHS clap clap clap now, it’ll all be back to the same old on a year, missed appointments, A&E full of people with no real reason to be there, supermarket staff being spoken to like they’re lowest of the low. Airlines will be back to over inflated prices, people will, when money comes back, Disney world will be full again and a rise of 500 deaths in one day, as of yesterday figures, in the U.K. will simply be a dinner party discussion topic.*
> 
> I’m not sure I like this world but I’m pretty sure it’s not that different to before


And I agree with you too and as you say this may happen again in the future and lessons will not have been learned. As you rightly point out money is more important than people and those in the middle and at the bottom of the pile are expendable.

I have seen many posts on social media saying after this pandemic 'let's hope the world will become a better place yada yada yada' ... I would like to hope for that as well but* your last paragraph* I think sums it up pretty accurately so I won't be holding my breath. 

All I was merely pointing out in my links was that the info was there, scientific info from those who study these viruses and from the WHO as well and if governments had taken notice maybe this pandemic would not be on the scale that it is.

The Tories in the UK have decimated Social Services and the NHS over the last 10 years and the same goes for the Orange ****gibbon in the WH who, since becoming President, has undone some of the things Obama put in place re healthcare for poor Americans and closed depts that deal with pandemics such as this. I'm not saying our health service in France is wonderful and we're coping because it's not and our doctors, nurses and frontline workers are suffering from underfunding, cutbacks and a lack of equipment too. It's no wonder that the health services cannot cope with this pandemic when they are so underfunded and do not have the resources, staff or equipment to deal with it adequately or properly.


----------



## Isobella

UK must be coping at the moment as only 1 in 10 beds are occupied by a coronavirus sufferer. I know it will be worse in hotspots but that is where we are. An Edinburgh consultant said everything is running calm and smoothly in his hospital, quieter than normal. Same when OH was in Brighton recently, was really impressed. Hid follow up has been moved to a private hospital on the coast so we will get a bit of sea air.


----------



## Megsmum

Isobella said:


> UK must be coping at the moment as only 1 in 10 beds are occupied by a coronavirus sufferer. I know it will be worse in hotspots but that is where we are. An Edinburgh consultant said everything is running calm and smoothly in his hospital, quieter than normal. Same when OH was in Brighton recently, was really impressed. Hid follow up has been moved to a private hospital on the coast so we will get a bit of sea air.


Yea

550 deaths a day, really coping. We are nowhere near the peak.


----------



## kaipa

Isobella said:


> UK must be coping at the moment as only 1 in 10 beds are occupied by a coronavirus sufferer. I know it will be worse in hotspots but that is where we are. An Edinburgh consultant said everything is running calm and smoothly in his hospital, quieter than normal. Same when OH was in Brighton recently, was really impressed. Hid follow up has been moved to a private hospital on the coast so we will get a bit of sea air.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> I take it you are trying to be ironic ? No?


----------



## Isobella

Megsmum said:


> Yea
> 
> 550 deaths a day, really coping. We are nowhere near the peak.


But not as many deaths as last year.


----------



## kaipa

Isobella said:


> Megsmum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yea
> 
> 550 deaths a day, really coping. We are nowhere near the peak.
> 
> 
> 
> But not as many deaths as last year.
Click to expand...

What on earth are you talking about?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> What on earth are you talking about?


 It has been reported that there are not as many deaths in the UK as there usually are for this time of year.
I don't understand it either, but as I said, it has been reported...


----------



## jimenato

Pesky Wesky said:


> It has been reported that there are not as many deaths in the UK as there usually are for this time of year.
> I don't understand it either, but as I said, it has been reported...


These figures might not be exact but illustrate what might be happening

UK deaths from covid-19 started around the 10th March - about 20 days

There have been 2137 deaths to as at 31st March - so about 100-ish deaths per day on average.

This compares to about 1400 deaths per day normally (that's an annual average so probably higher during the winter).

So the number of covid-19 deaths hasn't particularly stretched the hospital system yet - particularly as the non-covid-19 rate is somewhat lower than usual - in fact total deaths - including covid-19 is lower than usual. 

Don't know why that is. It's been a mild winter and the country is pretty much closed down so fewer accidents maybe?

That's just me trying to work things out - might not be right.

ETA That's just so far - as megsmum says - we are nowhere near the peak.


----------



## Williams2

mrypg9 said:


> We are currently experiencing a pandemic which has caught the world's attention because it's happening in the rich countries and not in Africa where these things usually happen. China has to be counted as among the rich countries - after all, it owns a huge quantity of US Treasury and corporate bonds as well as an awful lot of American mortgages. There is a certain amount of perception that plagues are for the poor and when they hit the rich panic and hysteria tend to overshadow cool judgment. COVID -19 is THE hot story du jour. So deep thought and considered judgments get put aside.
> 
> I'm not saying that we're not in a crisis situation. But one of the little remarked on but nevertheless true is that the world is constantly in some kind of crisis situation. *Climate change, uncontrollable finance, obscene inequality, the rise of fundamentalisms, the rise in populism of right and left (imo not per se a bad thing), the existence in unsafe hands of large stocks of thermo nuclear weapons...all these as well as more minor issues which are still of importance to those directly affected by them. All of which land daily on politicians' desks. How to prioritise? Another terrorist attack along the lines of 9/11 will knock this virus off the headlines.*
> 
> Just as when unemployment reached unprecedented levels of 25% plus, 75% were still in employment however precarious, it's a fact that the majority of the population of Spain and elsewhere will either not be infected by the virus or if infected will recover without hospitalisation. Deaths from common old boring 'flu, heart and lung disease, cancer, will continue to increase. Many of these deaths are preventable given common support to measures against them.
> 
> Casado and Abascal have exposed themselves for what most of us knew thy were. Political chancers, straw men, not to be allowed near positions of real power. Iglesias is fast learning the sharp dividing line between ideology and reality, between ideals and real-world constraints.


Apparently epidemics are going up the list of priorities for many Intelligence Agencies across the
world and no doubt it's already a priority email in C´s Inbox at MI6.

BBC News - Coronavirus: How will it change National Security & Spying ?


----------



## Tigerlillie

Pesky Wesky said:


> It has been reported that there are not as many deaths in the UK as there usually are for this time of year.
> I don't understand it either, but as I said, it has been reported...


I think it's mainly due the the social distancing, people don't seem to be in such close proximity as they usually are and not everyone who has the flu virus will get flu either but they will pass it on and the same goes for the common cold. People with respiratory disease have always been at risk with these infectious ailments but if people are isolating they're not being passed around quite so easily. Well that's my theory anyway.


----------



## Juan C

I think the numbers are being ‘massaged,’. 

Example :- 

https://www.england.nhs.uk/2020/04/total-number-of-covid-19-deaths-in-england-by-date-of-death/

“Figures on deaths relate to patients who have died in hospital in England and who have tested positive for COVID-19.

We do not include deaths outside hospital, such as those in care homes. “

Lies, Damn lies and statistics !!!!!


----------



## jimenato

Juan C said:


> I think the numbers are being ‘massaged,’.
> 
> Example :-
> 
> https://www.england.nhs.uk/2020/04/total-number-of-covid-19-deaths-in-england-by-date-of-death/
> 
> “Figures on deaths relate to patients who have died in hospital in England and who have tested positive for COVID-19.
> 
> We do not include deaths outside hospital, such as those in care homes. “
> 
> Lies, Damn lies and statistics !!!!!


So anyone who dies and has COVID-19 is included even if they didn't die of COVID-19.

ETA - so as those figures don't include everyone who dies of it but do include those who didn't necessarily die of it they are dodgy - if not useless.


----------



## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> So anyone who dies and has COVID-19 is included even if they didn't die of COVID-19.
> 
> ETA - so as those figures don't include everyone who dies of it but do include those who didn't necessarily die of it they are dodgy - if not useless.


As I said....when things eventually get back to normal and the crisis can be viewed with cool and detached judgment it will be interesting to see factual reports as to the true social and economic impact of COVID.

As for me...I'm high risk for COVID. But then I've been high risk for common and garden 'flu and pneumonia for the past seven years or so. So far escaped unscathed. Maybe in future I should glove and mask up whenever I leave the house as the 'normal' fatality rate for these two things is horrendous.

In an age of easy mobility where we can get from Exeter to Malaga easier and cheaper than we can get from Exeter to Manchester maybe a new approach to public health is needed regardless of the COVID panic.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Pesky Wesky said:


> It has been reported that there are not as many deaths in the UK as there usually are for this time of year.
> I don't understand it either, but as I said, it has been reported...





Tigerlillie said:


> I think it's mainly due the the social distancing, people don't seem to be in such close proximity as they usually are and not everyone who has the flu virus will get flu either but they will pass it on and the same goes for the common cold. People with respiratory disease have always been at risk with these infectious ailments but if people are isolating they're not being passed around quite so easily. Well that's my theory anyway.


 Social distancing?
And what has Spain been doing for the last three weeks?
As I understand it in the UK people are permitted to go out for 30 mins a day.
Not in Spain as from 3 weeks ago. I'm going out now for the first time since the 24th of march when I was out for 20 mins to go to the chemist's and where I stood behind a mark on the floor, as did all other customers (1) to make sure I kept my distance. 

If that's not social distancing and isolation then I don't know what is.


----------



## Tigerlillie

Pesky Wesky said:


> Social distancing?
> And what has Spain been doing for the last three weeks?
> As I understand it in the UK people are permitted to go out for 30 mins a day.
> Not in Spain as from 3 weeks ago. I'm going out now for the first time since the 24th of march when I was out for 20 mins to go to the chemist's and where I stood behind a mark on the floor, as did all other customers (1) to make sure I kept my distance.
> 
> If that's not social distancing and isolation then I don't know what is.


You also have to remember though that people get vaccinated for flu as well, there is no vaccine for COVID19, so that could be another reason along with self isolation that influenza and pneumonia death rates are down. Like I said, just a theory.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Tigerlillie said:


> You also have to remember though that people get vaccinated for flu as well, there is no vaccine for COVID19, so that could be another reason along with self isolation that influenza and pneumonia death rates are down. Like I said, just a theory.


You would think that self isolation/ being told you can't go out of your house would keep the rates of everything down, and even more so in Spain as there are more restrictions in place here, but it hasn't and it isn't . What's more we were told right from the beginning that nothing was expected to go down until at least the third week, so...Maybe the UK has a different virus


----------



## Williams2

People are getting very inventive on their all round protection when venturing outdoors.











How football matches will look once the restrictions start easing off.


----------



## kaipa

Pesky Wesky said:


> Tigerlillie said:
> 
> 
> 
> You also have to remember though that people get vaccinated for flu as well, there is no vaccine for COVID19, so that could be another reason along with self isolation that influenza and pneumonia death rates are down. Like I said, just a theory.
> 
> 
> 
> You would think that self isolation/ being told you can't go out of your house would keep the rates of everything down, and even more so in Spain as there are more restrictions in place here, but it hasn't and it isn't . What's more we were told right from the beginning that nothing was expected to go down until at least the third week, so...Maybe the UK has a different virus
Click to expand...

But that's the thing , how do you know it isn't working? It is bad sure but maybe it could have been worse. We don't know. It seems highly likely that if there was no quarantining then the number of infections would be higher. But then you will get some people arguing that the speed of contagion shoud be left to race through the population with such speed that herd immunity would be reached very quickly and the infection rate would drop rapidly. Who knows. One thing is for sure. Neither way can actually stop it and deaths are inevitable


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Juan C said:


> I think the numbers are being ‘massaged,’.
> 
> Example :-
> 
> https://www.england.nhs.uk/2020/04/total-number-of-covid-19-deaths-in-england-by-date-of-death/
> 
> “Figures on deaths relate to patients who have died in hospital in England and who have tested positive for COVID-19.
> 
> We do not include deaths outside hospital, such as those in care homes. “
> 
> Lies, Damn lies and statistics !!!!!


Of course they are, in every country and by every party in a different way. Such is modern politics and maybe back in the day as well, I don't know


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> But that's the thing , how do you know it isn't working? It is bad sure but maybe it could have been worse. We don't know. It seems highly likely that if there was no quarantining then the number of infections would be higher. But then you will get some people arguing that the speed of contagion shoud be left to race through the population with such speed that herd immunity would be reached very quickly and the infection rate would drop rapidly. Who knows. One thing is for sure. Neither way can actually stop it and deaths are inevitable


 Actually, I didn't say it wasn't. (I did mention that we in Spain were told there wouldn't be any fall in numbers for weeks, and we have just started to hear that maybe things are stabilising, but not to count chickens yet)
The only thing I would argue is questionable is Tigerlillie's thought process that social distancing is working in the UK where people can still go out, however is not working in Spain where people are suffering more stringent measures.
That's all I'm commenting on as it doesn't make sense to me, except as I said before it's a different virus or strain of virus, but there doesn't seem to be anything to suggest that at this point in time


----------



## Joppa

I think differences in mortality figures between countries are largely due to how each country compute the figures. In UK, only those diagnosed with Covic-19 and die in hospital are counted. Those who die elsewhere such as in homes are not.


----------



## Isobella

We don’t know what’s working really. Scientists admit there is a lot they do not know about the virus. Obviously isolation works but there can never be complete isolation. Will be clearer when the end is in sight. Governments seem to be preparing for the long haul.


----------



## Williams2

Well it looks like the Human Race will be the new inmates at their local Zoo's this year.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

For Spanish speakers... Both speak quite slowly and clearly if you want to give it a go, Carbonell with a lovely Catalan accent

Iñaki Gabilondo, a través de una serie de entrevistas y tertulias telemáticas, lanza una mirada rigurosa a nuestro futuro a corto y medio plazo, profundizando en las causas, consecuencias y efectos que la pandemia va a tener en nuestras vidas. Eudald Carbonell, antropólogo, opina que estamos observando la pandemia desde una perspectiva equivocada, ya que no nos estamos dando cuenta de que probablemente este sea el momento de tomar ciertas decisiones para que no colapse nuestra especie
Sólo 6 minutos. 



Lo emiten en Movistar. Si alguien puede darme en enlace a la entrevista que hizo con Adela Cortina, lo agredezco


----------



## kaipa

If only these people had real influence, instead of politicians and businessmen then the world would be a much better place to live. As they say we could be at a point of transformation but I feel that will only happen if people reevaluate things. Unfortunately politicians will seize control as soon as possible pushing us back to the old ways. I am hoping the next battle will be one of Ideas and not money


----------



## Tigerlillie

Pesky Wesky said:


> You would think that self isolation/ being told you can't go out of your house would keep the rates of everything down, and even more so in Spain as there are more restrictions in place here, but it hasn't and it isn't . What's more we were told right from the beginning that nothing was expected to go down until at least the third week, so...*Maybe the UK has a different virus*


What are you rambling on about? Have these restrictions and having to stay home addled your brain?

You either didn't read my post properly or you didn't understand it.

I said the mortality rates for INFLUENZA or PNEUMONIA *could* be down due to physical distancing or self isolation but that was just a theory.

I didn't say anything about the rates of CV19 slowing or not getting worse. Before you start criticizing try to understand what you are reading.


----------



## kaipa

El pais saying that Sanchez will prolong until 26 th April


----------



## Alcalaina

kaipa said:


> El pais saying that Sanchez will prolong until 26 th April


Not at all surprising. I would put money on a further extention into May.

Interesting the apparent U-turn on face masks. First we were all told they were unnecessary, did not offer protection and we should only wear them if we thought we might be infected. Now they've realised most people don't even know they are infected and they are a Good Idea.

The El Pais article says they won't make them mandatory until there are sufficient supplies in farmacias, and then they might be able to relax some restrictions. But already they are socially, if not officially, obligatory. I went out without one a week ago and I could see people recoiling in horror, so I've made myself one out of a vacuum cleaner bag (better than cotton apparently) for my next outing.


----------



## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> Not at all surprising. * I would put money on a further extention into May.*
> 
> Interesting the apparent U-turn on face masks. First we were all told they were unnecessary, did not offer protection and we should only wear them if we thought we might be infected. Now they've realised most people don't even know they are infected and they are a Good Idea.
> 
> The El Pais article says they won't make them mandatory until there are sufficient supplies in farmacias, and then they might be able to relax some restrictions. But already they are socially, if not officially, obligatory. I went out without one a week ago and I could see people recoiling in horror, so I've made myself one out of a vacuum cleaner bag (better than cotton apparently) for my next outing.


I'd be willing to bet that it will be even longer, & that schools certainly won't open again until September.



Our annual San Juan fogueres, which is our biggest & longest fiesta here, with the last night on the night of San Juan at the end of June, has already been postponed to October.


----------



## Alcalaina

xabiaxica said:


> I'd be willing to bet that it will be even longer, & that schools certainly won't open again until September.
> 
> Our annual San Juan fogueres, which is our biggest & longest fiesta here, with the last night on the night of San Juan at the end of June, has already been postponed to October.


Yes lots of things have been postponed till October. They were even talking about doing it with Semana Santa processions! 

But my guess is that they will relax restrictions in May somewhat, (a) so more people can get back to work and (b) to reduce severe strain on family relationships, especially during the summer months.

It would be interesting to see how social distancing works on the beach.


----------



## kaipa

Yes. Not sure when schools will open. Given that the year finishes 20 th June it is hard to imagine they will open in May. I guess the teachers are officially working at the moment so they wont work July and August without the union asking for new contracts etc.


----------



## kaipa

I also imagine that given the threat of youngsters being asymptomatic carriers I would imagine schools will be that last thing that will be opened up.


----------



## kaipa

How can celebrations for Semana Santa be allowed anyway.? Thats next week


----------



## kaipa

Ahhh. Sorry . Read your post wrong.Have procesiones in October


----------



## Williams2

Alcalaina said:


> Not at all surprising. I would put money on a further extention into May.
> 
> Interesting the apparent U-turn on face masks. First we were all told they were unnecessary, did not offer protection and we should only wear them if we thought we might be infected. Now they've realised most people don't even know they are infected and they are a Good Idea.
> 
> *The El Pais article says they won't make them mandatory until there are sufficient supplies in farmacias, and then they might be able to relax some restrictions. But already they are socially, if not officially, obligatory*. I went out without one a week ago and I could see people recoiling in horror, so I've made myself one out of a vacuum cleaner bag (better than cotton apparently) for my next outing.


Try finding facemasks for sale in farmacias around here - because there's zilch to be had !!!, no doubt
any supplies of the proper ( Medical staff ) approved facemarks would be going to front line workers,
namely doctors, nurses, health care workers etc with any left over being reserved for key workers
which can range from shop workers to delivery drivers and all the way down to the postman.

Which means all that you might be lucky to find are the sub standard or homemade face masks
with many resorting to making their own DIY facemasks at a pinch.


----------



## kaipa

The government have said it wont be mandatory inútil there are sufficient supplies available.


----------



## kaipa

I think they might lift some restrictions after 26th April. For instance, some people will be allowed to go back to work but I imagine bars, restaurants, shopping malls, gyms, will still remain closed. Those places of work where numbers of people can be controlled will probably be allowed open. I should imagine people will bd allowed to take exercise but beaches will remain closed for probably the whole season now. The risk of a second wave would be catastrophic. I think we are in this for the long run!!


----------



## Isobella

Williams2 said:


> Try finding facemasks for sale in farmacias around here - because there's zilch to be had !!!, no doubt
> any supplies of the proper ( Medical staff ) approved facemarks would be going to front line workers,
> namely doctors, nurses, health care workers etc with any left over being reserved for key workers
> which can range from shop workers to delivery drivers and all the way down to the postman.
> 
> Which means all that you might be lucky to find are the sub standard or homemade face masks
> with many resorting to making their own DIY facemasks at a pinch.


When i see people on TV many of the masks do not look adequate, loose and flimsy with gaps at the side. I was donated one by a neighbour which is preformed and has filters in. Really uncomfortable though, and hot. OH has one used for gardening, looks very similar, both have a sort of metal strip that fits on the bridge of the nose.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> How can celebrations for Semana Santa be allowed anyway.? Thats next week


 They're not. They have already been suspended


Sánchez has announced 2 weeks more of "Estado de Alarma"


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Tigerlillie said:


> What are you rambling on about? Have these restrictions and having to stay home addled your brain?
> 
> You either didn't read my post properly or you didn't understand it.
> 
> I said the mortality rates for INFLUENZA or PNEUMONIA *could* be down due to physical distancing or self isolation but that was just a theory.
> 
> I didn't say anything about the rates of CV19 slowing or not getting worse. Before you start criticizing try to understand what you are reading.


This post doesn't deserve my reply. If you have anything to add to me personally, please do it by PM so others don't have suffer through your posts.


----------



## Lynn R

Williams2 said:


> Try finding facemasks for sale in farmacias around here - because there's zilch to be had !!!, no doubt
> any supplies of the proper ( Medical staff ) approved facemarks would be going to front line workers,
> namely doctors, nurses, health care workers etc with any left over being reserved for key workers
> which can range from shop workers to delivery drivers and all the way down to the postman.
> 
> Which means all that you might be lucky to find are the sub standard or homemade face masks
> with many resorting to making their own DIY facemasks at a pinch.


I managed to buy 4 surgical facemasks in the farmacia yesterday whilst getting my prescription filled (plus another box of latex gloves as the one we'd had in for years is slowly getting depleted). They are only single use ones though, and cost €3 each so it will get very expensive if we are told to wear them every time we go to the shop. They can be ordered on Amazon but quoted delivery dates are from mid May at the earliest until late June - no use at all. I only bought them because of this talk of the advice from Sanidad changing, I haven't worn one to date because I'm sceptical about their effectiveness unless they are the very expensive respirator type ones.

Ayuntamientos in small villages may be able to issue each household with a few washable masks, but I can't see that happening in large towns like mine.


----------



## Williams2

Lynn R said:


> I managed to buy 4 surgical facemasks in the farmacia yesterday whilst getting my prescription filled (plus another box of latex gloves as the one we'd had in for years is slowly getting depleted). They are only single use ones though, and cost €3 each so it will get very expensive if we are told to wear them every time we go to the shop. They can be ordered on Amazon but quoted delivery dates are from mid May at the earliest until late June - no use at all. I only bought them because of this talk of the advice from Sanidad changing, I haven't worn one to date because I'm sceptical about their effectiveness unless they are the very expensive respirator type ones.
> 
> Ayuntamientos in small villages may be able to issue each household with a few washable masks, but I can't see that happening in large towns like mine.


Here I cannot get facemasks from the local farmacia's for love or money in my part of Oviedo, Lynn although
they did say they expect some in next week.


----------



## Williams2

Lovely sunny weather in Asturias today with some people trying to precariously sunbath on their apartment
window ledges.
Most of them from their ground floor apartments I hasten to add.



Don't try this at home children !!


----------



## Megsmum

Most people do not know how to fit the masked properly.

Pinch on the nose
Pull downwards and ensure under Chin 
Secure tightly 

If it’s not fitted correctly you might as well be wearing a lettuce


----------



## Love Karma

Stolen from elsewhere

Well, there seems to be some good news. Government just opened a page to see if you can start leaving home in your area.

¿Puedo salir de casa?


----------



## Megsmum

Love Karma said:


> Stolen from elsewhere
> 
> Well, there seems to be some good news. Government just opened a page to see if you can start leaving home in your area.
> 
> ¿Puedo salir de casa?


mmm
Short answer in

NO


----------



## Williams2

mrypg9 said:


> Casado and Abascal have exposed themselves for what most of us knew thy were. Political chancers, straw men, not to be allowed near positions of real power. *Iglesias* is fast learning the sharp dividing line between ideology and reality, between ideals and real-world constraints.


*Yes - Bring back Julio Iglesias !!*, Spains Eurovision Song Contest entry for 1970 with his song
Gwendolyne faint - here's a classic Eurovision introdution to Julio complete with faux pas's  , enjoy.

Julio Iglesias sings Gwendoline in Spains entry for Eurovision


----------



## Alcalaina

Williams2 said:


> Try finding facemasks for sale in farmacias around here - because there's zilch to be had !!!, no doubt
> any supplies of the proper ( Medical staff ) approved facemarks would be going to front line workers,
> namely doctors, nurses, health care workers etc with any left over being reserved for key workers
> which can range from shop workers to delivery drivers and all the way down to the postman.
> 
> Which means all that you might be lucky to find are the sub standard or homemade face masks
> with many resorting to making their own DIY facemasks at a pinch.


The govt are importing millions of protective masks, gloves etc. and they should be more widely available soon.

Provided everyone observes social distancing, the public don't need the high-grade surgical masks, which should be reserved for healthcare workers. Anything that covers your face and nose is better than nothing because it traps the micro-droplets that carry the virus, which are emitted not only by coughs and sneezes but also when just talking. 

It might not protect you, but it protects other people, so if everyone wears one it greatly reduces the risk. Even the WHO are revising their guidelines in the light of recent research. Lots of useful info here:

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-52126735


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> The govt are importing millions of protective masks, gloves etc. and they should be more widely available soon.
> 
> Provided everyone observes social distancing, the public don't need the high-grade surgical masks, which should be reserved for healthcare workers. Anything that covers your face and nose is better than nothing because it traps the micro-droplets that carry the virus. It might not protect you, but it protects other people, so if everyone wears one it greatly reduces the risk. Even the WHO are revising their guidelines in the light of recent research. Lots of useful info here:
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-52126735



One measure that the government is thinking of introducing is obligatory use of the face mask. Can't see how that's going to work though as atm there is such a lack in even the professions who should be wearing one all the time and not knowing how long this is going to go on for, how can you plan around that? Also, we have been told time and time again that if you're not ill you don't need to wear one...


----------



## Lynn R

Alcalaina said:


> The govt are importing millions of protective masks, gloves etc. and they should be more widely available soon.


That may be more than a little optimistic in view of the actions being taken by other countries such as the US gazumping other countries by paying higher prices for PPE supplies and ventilators, or Turkey seizing consignments of ventilators and PPE ordered and paid for by Spain. There is a lot of really reprehensible stuff going on.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...lators-medical-equipment-seized-a9447216.html


----------



## xgarb

Lynn R said:


> or Turkey seizing consignments of ventilators and PPE ordered and paid for by Spain. There is a lot of really reprehensible stuff going on.
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...lators-medical-equipment-seized-a9447216.html


This was actually a problem where an order was accepted by a Turkish company when there already was an export ban so they shouldn't have taken the order.

Later Turkey have said that they will allow the ventilators to ship.


----------



## Isobella

Lynn R said:


> That may be more than a little optimistic in view of the actions being taken by other countries such as the US gazumping other countries by paying higher prices for PPE supplies and ventilators, or Turkey seizing consignments of ventilators and PPE ordered and paid for by Spain. There is a lot of really reprehensible stuff going on.
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...lators-medical-equipment-seized-a9447216.html


They are all doing it. France intercepted two trucks en route for UK. But relented after wrangling. They also stopped some destined for Spain and have now agreed to hand them over after Sweden who sent them intervened. The gazumping is called “market forces” similar to test kits priced at around $26 now selling in the $90 range! 

China supplying most of the stuff, a bit ironic.


----------



## Lynn R

Isobella said:


> They are all doing it. France intercepted two trucks en route for UK. But relented after wrangling. They also stopped some destined for Spain and have now agreed to hand them over after Sweden who sent them intervened. The gazumping is called “market forces” similar to test kits priced at around $26 now selling in the $90 range!
> 
> China supplying most of the stuff, a bit ironic.


I may be idealistic but I don't think life saving equipment in a global pandemic should be subject to market forces - it should be sold for whatever the manufacturer's original price was. After all they would not have been selling it at a loss before. There is enough competition going on between countries for scarce supplies without bringing profiteering and gazumping into it. Maybe after this pandemic countries will decide that they really should be more self sufficient in the things that are essential, even if they cost more to produce than shipping them from far flung countries where the workers are paid peanuts, I hope so.

Almost as bad as Jacob Rees Mogg's investment company advising clients that the present crisis represents "the opportunity of a lifetime". They make me sick.


----------



## Alcalaina

Lynn R said:


> That may be more than a little optimistic in view of the actions being taken by other countries such as the US gazumping other countries by paying higher prices for PPE supplies and ventilators, or Turkey seizing consignments of ventilators and PPE ordered and paid for by Spain. There is a lot of really reprehensible stuff going on.
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...lators-medical-equipment-seized-a9447216.html


Yes it's appalling. But the Ministerio de Sanidad posted a video of the planeloads of supplies landing in Madrid yesterday so hopefully this is real!


----------



## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> One measure that the government is thinking of introducing is obligatory use of the face mask. Can't see how that's going to work though as atm there is such a lack in even the professions who should be wearing one all the time and not knowing how long this is going to go on for, how can you plan around that? Also, we have been told time and time again that if you're not ill you don't need to wear one...


We have been told that it won't protect you from contracting the virus, which is probably true, but it can stop you spreading it. If you read the article you'll see that the experts are seriously reconsidering this advice. And people are wearing them anyway, if they can't buy them in the farmacia they make their own out of everything from old bras to vacuum cleaner bags. The test is, if you can blow out a match while wearing it it's not working. Otherwise as long as it covers your nose and mouth it's a lot better than nothing.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-52126735


----------



## 95995

Isobella said:


> They are all doing it. France intercepted two trucks en route for UK. But relented after wrangling. They also stopped some destined for Spain and have now agreed to hand them over after Sweden who sent them intervened. The gazumping is called “market forces” similar to test kits priced at around $26 now selling in the $90 range!
> 
> China supplying most of the stuff, a bit ironic.


Well, as usual you don't provide links, though any wrangling may not have related to the transportation of PPE for all I know. It does need to be said, though, that France like Spain is not receiving even those orders that have been sent and even in the areas with the greatest epidemic front line staff don't have the PPE, or the ventilators they need. The US though is certainly doing a heck of a lot of gazumping and also causing prices to sky rocket. France has started to make masks, but it will be many months before manufacturers here can produce in sufficient numbers. Which leads me to wonder why Australia can start producing masks in marge numbers so quickly, given it is a country that scarcely manufactures anything at all these days.

Edit:
And if masks destined for the UK were intercepted by France, I have to wonder where they were being sent from


----------



## 95995

Alcalaina said:


> We have been told that it won't protect you from contracting the virus, which is probably true, but it can stop you spreading it. If you read the article you'll see that the experts are seriously reconsidering this advice. And people are wearing them anyway, if they can't buy them in the farmacia they make their own out of everything from old bras to vacuum cleaner bags. The test is, if you can blow out a match while wearing it it's not working. Otherwise as long as it covers your nose and mouth it's a lot better than nothing.
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-52126735


France had taken the same approach about general mask-wearing, but now has yielded to the advice from the medical profession. I suspect it has something to do with there being a huge lack of masks for front-line medical workers and others that have a genuine need.


----------



## Williams2

*Shopping aisles in Supermarkets as regards people distancing*

Have any of the supermarkets been spacing out the width between aisles in your local supermarket ?
( whether in Spain or the UK ) because none of the supermarkets I've entered have widened the
space between these aisles, to facilitate people distancing.
Meaning many people will not wait patiently at the entrance to these aisles, in order to wait for someone
to leave the aisle before venturing down the aisle themselves and passing other people in the aisle
at less than the 2 meters social distancing.


----------



## Nomoss

That's precisely the reason we're using a supermarket that offers a DRIVE service.


----------



## Alcalaina

Williams2 said:


> Have any of the supermarkets been spacing out the width between aisles in your local supermarket ?
> ( whether in Spain or the UK ) because none of the supermarkets I've entered have widened the
> space between these aisles, to facilitate people distancing.
> Meaning many people will not wait patiently at the entrance to these aisles, in order to wait for someone
> to leave the aisle before venturing down the aisle themselves and passing other people in the aisle
> at less than the 2 meters social distancing.


Our supermarket (Día) only allows five people in at a time. There is no problem whatsover about distancing. The rest wait outside and chat, 2 metres apart.


----------



## Barriej

Most if not all UK supermarkets have made the stores one way. You go up one aisle and down the next. 

Even if you only want 1 item you are supposed to follow the route.

X number in then wait outside in marked bays . One in one out. It seems to be working on the whole here.

Although the wife was overtaken a couple of times in Tesco yesterday.


----------



## Williams2

Another feature of the lockdown is the absence of children, maybe accompanying their parents to the supermarket, 
pharmacy or wherever their parents go.

No doubt absent due to the restrictions but nevertheless adds to the gloom.


----------



## Megsmum

Husband has to go to the village this week for the first time for a few essentials. 

My friends in the village have told me he will not be able to enter a shop or even walk around the village without a mask and gloves. Fortunately, the ayuntamiento have provided everyone with makes a s gloves. Husband will drive past Miguel’s house who will drop said gloves and masks down to him. 

My village if under 1800 people now has 8 cases all, I believe, in the old people’s home


----------



## Williams2

*Meanwhile somewhere in Asturias* were still keeping ourselves amused as we enter day 21 of lockdown.

I want to break free . . . . . . 

:cheer2: :cheer2:

Residents in Gijon, Asturias - wanting to break free !! video


----------



## Juan C

Alcalaina said:


> Williams2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Our supermarket (Día) only allows five people in at a time. There is no problem whatsover about distancing. The rest wait outside and chat, 2 metres apart.
> 
> 
> 
> . I guess it must vary from store to store. I was in our local DIA this morning. No
> Controls at all.
Click to expand...


----------



## Alcalaina

Juan C said:


> Alcalaina said:
> 
> 
> 
> . I guess it must vary from store to store. I was in our local DIA this morning. No
> Controls at all.
> 
> 
> 
> How strange, you'd think it would be national policy. We got this on Day One of the lockdown:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COMUNICADO SUPERMERCADO DIA
> 
> Debido a los circunstancias por las que pasamos y el riesgo que corremos, el equipo de trabajo ha decidido:
> 
> -El aforo de la tienda estará limitado a 5 personas, se controlará el acceso para no tener masificación ni descontrol en la sala.
> -Solo podrá acceder una persona por familia.
> -El cliente deberá usar guantes colocados a la entrada del establecimiento y los tirara en la papelera de salida, o en su lugar, desinfectarse las manos con el líquido correspondiente al entrar.
> -Por favor, para toser pónganse el codo.
> -El cliente deberá mantener la distancia de seguridad con respecto a los demás clientes y los trabajadores de 1,5 metro.
> -Se recomienda por el bien de todos comprar de manera lógica y coherente.
> -Intentar tardar lo menos posible y relacionarte lo mínimo con el personal de tienda y otros clientes, así agilizaremos el trabajo y los clientes esperarán menos fuera.
> -Intenta pagar con tarjeta.
> -En el caso de que hubiera cola para entrar, no amontonarse en la calle, mantener la distancia de 1,5 metros.
> 
> POR FAVOR, ESTAMOS EN ESTADO DE ALARMA, SON NORMAS POR EL BIEN DE TODOS, HAY QUE COMPRENDER QUE NO DEBERÍAMOS SALIR DE CASA, Y SI LO HACEMOS ES POR ALGO URGENTE Y CON SENTIDO, AÚN HAY MUCHOS IGNORANTES Y NO PODEMOS PERMITÍRNOSLO.
> 
> Gracias a todos por la colaboración 💪
> Entre todos podemos y debemos.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Williams2

Juan C said:


> Alcalaina said:
> 
> 
> 
> . I guess it must vary from store to store.
> 
> 
> 
> I was in our local DIA this morning. No
> Controls at all.
> 
> 
> 
> I like Barreij's report from the UK of the Supermarkets making customers movements
> down the aisles; a one way traffic system, with direction arrows and Stop signs on
> the ends of the aisles; telling customers where they can enter or go round, to the other
> side in order to enter the aisle they want.
> 
> Therefore no widening of the aisles necessary, so long as customers follow the
> traffic signs round the store. That will no doubt compliment the floor markings on
> the supermarket floor in the queues before the checkouts, that maintain people
> distancing.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Megsmum

Juan C said:


> . I guess it must vary from store to store. I was in our local DIA this morning. No
> Controls at all.


I find that very odd.. personally I would not use the store and would report that.


----------



## kaipa

No controls in my DIa. That said it's very quiet. You have to wear gloves and that is all. But people seem quite sensible


----------



## timwip

Here in Oviedo the best grocery store from a public health perspective are Mercadona, a Valencian chain. They limit the number of people entering, there is a person disinfecting the carts before reuse, they hand out plastic gloves and require all patrons be gloved while shopping.


----------



## Simon22

timwip said:


> Here in Oviedo the best grocery store from a public health perspective are Mercadona, a Valencian chain. They limit the number of people entering, there is a person disinfecting the carts before reuse, they hand out plastic gloves and require all patrons be gloved while shopping.


Same here, they are a great company, donating food on a regular basis as well.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

IMPORTANT
Supermarket opening times over Easter, although I suppose there may be variations
https://cadenaser.com/ser/2020/04/0...86.html?sma=newsEditorialSER_generico20200408
*Estos son los horarios de los distintos supermercados:*

*Mercadona*



Jueves 9 de abril: cerrado (salvo en Cataluña y la Comunidad Valenciana)
Viernes 10 de abril: cerrado
Sábado 11 de abril: de 9:00 a 19:00 horas
Domingo 12 de abril: cerrado
 *Carrefour*



Jueves 9 de abril: de 9:00 a 15:00 horas
Viernes 10 de abril: de 9:00 a 15:00 horas
Sábado 11 de abril: de 9:00 a 21:00 horas
Domingo 12 de abril: de 9:00 a 15:00 horas
 *Día / La Plaza*



Jueves 9 de abril: de 9 a 19:00 horas
Viernes 10 de abril: de 9 a 19:00 horas
Sábado 11 de abril: de 9 a 19:00 horas
Domingo 12 de abril: de 10:00 a 15:30 horas
 *El Corte Inglés: Supercor / Hipercor*



Jueves 9 de abril: de 11:00 horas a 19:00 horas
Viernes 10 de abril: de 11:00 horas a 19:00 horas
Sábado 11 de abril: de 10:00 horas a 20:00 horas (Supercor abre una hora antes)
Domingo 12 de abril: de 10:00 horas a 20:00 horas (Supercor abre una hora antes)
 *Lidl*



Jueves 9 de abril: de 10:00 a 15:00 horas
Viernes 10 de abril: cerrado
Sábado 11 de abril: de 9:00 a 20:00 horas
Domingo 12 de abril: de 10:00 a 15:00 horas
 *Aldi*



Jueves 9 de abril: de 9:00 a 19:00 horas
Viernes 10 de abril: de 9:00 a 19:00 horas
Sábado 11 de abril: de 9:00 a 19:00 horas
Domingo 12 de abril: de 10:00 a 15:00 horas
 *Alcampo*



Jueves 9 de abril: de 09:00 a 20:00 horas
Viernes 10 de abril: de 09:00 a 20:00 horas
Sábado 11 de abril: de 09:00 a 21:00 horas
Domingo 12 de abril: de 09:00 a 20:00 horas


----------



## Brangus

In Castilla-La Mancha, because of the coronavirus, by law all supermarkets have the following extremely limited schedule for Holy Week:

Thursday 9/4: CLOSED
Friday 10/4: CLOSED
Saturday 11/4: Open with the usual "crisis" hours
Sunday 12/4: CLOSED
Monday 13/4: CLOSED

https://www.eldigitalcastillalamanc...stilla-La-Mancha-durante-la-Semana-Santa.html


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Brangus said:


> In Castilla-La Mancha, because of the coronavirus, by law all supermarkets have the following extremely limited schedule for Holy Week:
> 
> Thursday 9/4: CLOSED
> Friday 10/4: CLOSED
> Saturday 11/4: Open with the usual "crisis" hours
> Sunday 12/4: CLOSED
> Monday 13/4: CLOSED
> 
> https://www.eldigitalcastillalamanc...stilla-La-Mancha-durante-la-Semana-Santa.html


Yup, seems that some places have changed their minds. Probably best to look up the supermarket you want to go to to check if it's open in your area or not


----------



## Juan C

Thanks Pesky


----------



## Dominic Lopecas

Megsmum said:


> I find that very odd.. personally I would not use the store and would report that.


Boarder or no boarder the casualties don't stop I don't know what is the answer, what I do know that the Chinese that have spread the virous has cover up their fatalities as inside information has reported 41246 casualties deaths and 165768 texted positive for Coronavirus.


----------



## Monkey104

I’m starting to get a little bored now!
My garden has kept me quite busy but I had a few projects that I wanted to get done before it started warming up but am unable to get to the hardware shops.

This is not a complaint because I consider myself quite lucky having some land to walk around and maintain and not cooped up like some poor unfortunate folk living in apartments.

But where ever folk are I hope they are staying safe.


----------



## angkag

I think my major lockdown experience is having advanced my quest to make the perfect pasta aglio olio - not perfect yet, but its getting better...


----------



## Monkey104

angkag said:


> I think my major lockdown experience is having advanced my quest to make the perfect pasta aglio olio - not perfect yet, but its getting better...


Cooking and baking does seem to be at the top of everyone’s list.
I daresay gymn memberships and sales of fitness equipment are going to rocket once lockdown ends!


----------



## Isobella

There seems to be endless videos posted of families “ exercising” even on main news channels. 

Cooking is ok but how do they manage to get to specialist shops to buy all the exotic ingredients.


----------



## Overandout

Isobella said:


> There seems to be endless videos posted of families “ exercising” even on main news channels.
> 
> Cooking is ok but how do they manage to get to specialist shops to buy all the exotic ingredients.


I have thanked my lucky stars many times during lockdown that I went shopping for spices just before all this kicked off. 
The few fresh herbs I need for curries and other Indian dishes are available in most supermarkets. 
Also I have done a few recipes with some substitutions, sometimes a quick Google search or common sense will get you through a lack of a particular ingredient.


----------



## Alcalaina

Good time to learn to use the "exotic" ingredients that are sold in every Spanish corner shop. And a fifth of the price you'd pay in Waitrose.


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Good time to learn to use the "exotic" ingredients that are sold in every Spanish corner shop. And a fifth of the price you'd pay in Waitrose.


Depends on what kind of 'exotic'. Have you seen some of the ingredients needed for some of the recipes featured in The Guardian lately?

can you get gochujang paste, rose harissa, banana shallots, Sichuan peppercorns and rice vinegar in your corner shop?

When I lived in North London many years ago the most interesting culinary pastime was searching for the best fish and chips. Or Manzi's pies and eels....How times change and our habits with them..


----------



## Nomoss

mrypg9 said:


> Depends on what kind of 'exotic'. Have you seen some of the ingredients needed for some of the recipes featured in The Guardian lately?
> 
> can you get gochujang paste, rose harissa, banana shallots, Sichuan peppercorns and rice vinegar in your corner shop? ..................


You just have to substitute and improvise a little.

Most of those ingredient names are fancy ones for quite ordinary stuff.

A case of BS baffling brains?


----------



## mrypg9

Nomoss said:


> You just have to substitute and improvise a little.
> 
> Most of those ingredient names are fancy ones for quite ordinary stuff.
> 
> A case of BS baffling brains?


No, more a case of distaste for pretentiousness. 

Besides, I'm lucky if I can lay hands on an ancient tin of beans or tomato soup in my kitchen cupboard.


----------



## mrypg9

Nomoss said:


> You just have to substitute and improvise a little.
> 
> Most of those ingredient names are fancy ones for quite ordinary stuff.
> 
> A case of BS baffling brains?


Forgot to add in my previous post...can you translate that 'BS' into ordinary stuff?
You never know, I might have some of it lurking in my cupboard gathering dust behind the tin of beans.


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> Depends on what kind of 'exotic'. Have you seen some of the ingredients needed for some of the recipes featured in The Guardian lately?
> 
> can you get gochujang paste, rose harissa, banana shallots, Sichuan peppercorns and rice vinegar in your corner shop?
> 
> When I lived in North London many years ago the most interesting culinary pastime was searching for the best fish and chips. Or Manzi's pies and eels....How times change and our habits with them..


No, I don't read anything in the Guardian relating to "lifestyle" and that includes the stupid pretentious recipes.

But I do know that last time I went into a branch of Waitrose (some years ago I admit) they were selling things like pimentón de la Vera, ground almonds, pimientos picos, stuffed olives etc at vastly inflated prices. Chorizo too of course, but no sign of other delicious meat products such as chicharrones, morcón, carne mechada, caña de lomo ...


----------



## Nomoss

Alcalaina said:


> No, I don't read anything in the Guardian relating to "lifestyle" and that includes the stupid pretentious recipes.
> 
> But I do know that last time I went into a branch of Waitrose (some years ago I admit) they were selling things like pimentón de la Vera, ground almonds, pimientos picos, stuffed olives etc at vastly inflated prices. Chorizo too of course, but no sign of other delicious meat products such as chicharrones, morcón, carne mechada, caña de lomo ...


You won't see any of the items you listed until some cook on TV mentions them among the long list of "special" ingredients he/she uses.

Even Rick Stein - yes the one who ladles salt into every dish - who proclaims he "keeps it really simple" has to use special pepper, chili powder, cheese,oil, etc. unlikely to be available to mere mortals.

Each year the number of different stuff unnecessarily added to recipes seems to grow exponentially.

Do people really think that the best dishes are those with the longest list of ingredients and the most finicky and ridiculous manipulation?

I think they are the ones with the least ingredients and preparation.


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> No, I don't read anything in the Guardian relating to "lifestyle" and that includes the stupid pretentious recipes.
> 
> But I do know that last time I went into a branch of Waitrose (some years ago I admit) they were selling things like pimentón de la Vera, ground almonds, pimientos picos, stuffed olives etc at vastly inflated prices. Chorizo too of course, but no sign of other delicious meat products such as chicharrones, morcón, carne mechada, caña de lomo ...


Well, my local supermarket doesn't sell English bacon, sausages or pork pies, stuff I rarely ate when I lived in the UK but would really enjoy as a treat now and then. But it does sell Colmans Mustard, HP sauce and Heinz baked beans. Probably also at vastly inflated prices.

I look everywhere for interesting new recipes especially as now we have so much stuff in the garden and I'm interested in finding new ways of cooking them. The Guardian lifestyle pages are as you say often ridiculous - fashion pieces featuring £400 shoes don't fit well with the lefty pieces elsewhere in the paper - but there are occasionally vegetarian recipes which require fairly accessible ingredients as well as the more 'exotic' ones.

We now have loads of avocados, broad beans, greenish bananas, cabbage and those nispero fruits which I find very fiddly to eat. Custard apples too although I think their season might be over. I find them messy and fiddly to eat, like pomegranates. 

Our PSOE group is kindly doing my shopping for me which is making me think about what is essential and what I can do without. I don't want to weigh them down with loads of stuff I don't really need and I've become more frugal. I made 500kg of minced beef stuff two big tomatoes, two big peppers and had enough over to use as spaghetti bolognesa sauce. I don't throw anything away either.

I think - hope - I'll carry on like this when I do my own shopping again.

It's also made me think about the need to make sure I've got spares for basic things like light bulbs, candles cleaning products.

So although I doubt I'll change my basic disposition and character as a result of the crisis I'll be more practical about day to day, ordinary things.


----------



## baldilocks

There was an article on what to use if you have run out of certain basic ingredients - the things it recommended to use one was more likely to be out of than the basic ingredient, and I posted my comment to say so.


----------



## kaipa

Given how this virus and many others begins through food chains involving animals ( maybe medicines in far eastern cultures too) it certainly provides a strong argument for dietary changes. Coupled in with environmental issues you can see that this might lead to a very persuasive argument for lifestyle changes that in turn will apply pressure on those governments and organisations that still feel like protecting the status quo


----------



## mrypg9

Nomoss said:


> You won't see any of the items you listed until some cook on TV mentions them among the long list of "special" ingredients he/she uses.
> 
> Even Rick Stein - yes the one who ladles salt into every dish - who proclaims he "keeps it really simple" has to use special pepper, chili powder, cheese,oil, etc. unlikely to be available to mere mortals.
> 
> Each year the number of different stuff unnecessarily added to recipes seems to grow exponentially.
> 
> Do people really think that the best dishes are those with the longest list of ingredients and the most finicky and ridiculous manipulation?
> 
> I think they are the ones with the least ingredients and preparation.


My grandmother was for me the best cook ever. She was a 'plain' cook, as she liked to say, her speciality was wonderful Sunday roasts with roast spuds, parsnips, wonderful apple pie with mouth-watering pastry. The frying pan was used only for breakfast, most other things were roasted, baked, boiled or steamed. We were lucky in that all of the vegetables we ate were grown by my granddad, a keen gardener and my gran's numerous nephews included a butcher and a fishmonger. We ate things you don't see much nowadays, pigs trotters, oxtail, chitlin, black pudding, sprats, suet pudding. Our breakfast bacon, eggs and fried bread was fried in lard -drippin' - from the roasts. I ued to love eating drippin' on toast.

Most of this food would be considered unhealthy nowadays but the women in my family lived to ripe old ages, my Gran to over ninety, my mum over eighty and her sister my Aunt to ninety-six. The men didn't do so well but they all smoked like chimneys, as men did in those days. 

Oh well, that ends my trip down Memory Lane


----------



## Nomoss

mrypg9 said:


> Forgot to add in my previous post...can you translate that 'BS' into ordinary stuff?
> You never know, I might have some of it lurking in my cupboard gathering dust behind the tin of beans.


I'll try .........................

gochujang paste - a Korean, fermented, slightly sweet chilli paste. I'd use any chilli paste - you could add a bit of sugar if you really want it sweet.
I worked and lived for several months with a Korean company, and don't care if I never see their chilli paste, kimchi, or dried seaweed again.

rose harissa - shove a few chopped rose petals into harissa if you want to.
Harissa, from Algeria is readily available in tubes like toothpaste in France, so maybe in Spain also. Anyway, it's just another chilli paste.

banana shallots - use shallots. There are so many varieties of onions, shallots, scallions, etc. you could go mad trying to sort out their names and equivalents in various countries.

Sichuan peppercorns - add a bit of ground coriander (cilantro) to ordinary ground black pepper

rice vinegar - cider vinegar (vinagre de sidra) is similar. Has a slightly sweet taste.


----------



## Isobella

mrypg9 said:


> My grandmother was for me the best cook ever. She was a 'plain' cook, as she liked to say, her speciality was wonderful Sunday roasts with roast spuds, parsnips, wonderful apple pie with mouth-watering pastry. The frying pan was used only for breakfast, most other things were roasted, baked, boiled or steamed. We were lucky in that all of the vegetables we ate were grown by my granddad, a keen gardener and my gran's numerous nephews included a butcher and a fishmonger. We ate things you don't see much nowadays, pigs trotters, oxtail, chitlin, black pudding, sprats, suet pudding. Our breakfast bacon, eggs and fried bread was fried in lard -drippin' - from the roasts. I ued to love eating drippin' on toast.
> 
> Most of this food would be considered unhealthy nowadays but the women in my family lived to ripe old ages, my Gran to over ninety, my mum over eighty and her sister my Aunt to ninety-six. The men didn't do so well but they all smoked like chimneys, as men did in those days.
> 
> Oh well, that ends my trip down Memory Lane


I remember most of those, NaN called Chitlin chitlin and bag. Don’t know what it was but it looked disgusting. There was steamed puddings every day at school, hardly anyone overweight.

Some you mention are in Spain too. We once went for breakfast travelling to Antequera. Really busy transport caff place. Noticed many were having toast and dripping so we had it. Really good, they brought a large pile of toast and a dish of dripping with lots of brown jello at the bottom. Black pudding is also popular in Spain too. There is an upmarket tapas bar just off the paseo in Marbella has various types and everyone I know says it is the best ever.

I have a full cupboard of herbs, spices vinegar etc. Most are out of date when I use them. Leave exotic menus for when we eat out, I am a life is too short to stuff a mushroom type. I have a friend who goes to a specialist shop in Malaga for Indian and Chinese ingredients!


----------



## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> *Well, my local supermarket doesn't sell English bacon, sausages* or pork pies, stuff I rarely ate when I lived in the UK but would really enjoy as a treat now and then. But it does sell Colmans Mustard, HP sauce and Heinz baked beans. Probably also at vastly inflated prices.


Go to www.henryhoggs.com and you can get bacon and sausages delivered. They are in Madrid and send by SEUR special delivery. They do ordinary sausages (which I find are a bit too thick) and chipolatas (about the same size as longanizas.) Their bacon, I find is a bit on the thick side so I ask for thinner cut and that is great. Any special requests, just e-mail Simon Wilkinson ([email protected] etc.) Excellent quality and and service, I thoroughly recommend them.

Mercadona do Heinz baked beans 99c per tin.


----------



## Nomoss

Speaking of the back of the cupboard, this is a good description of most of them






And here is a cheap, quick, easy, and *very* tasty recipe I found recently, to use a bottle of ready - roasted peppers found in the back of a cupboard. I added them just before the grilling bit.

https://www.kitchenstories.com/en/recipes/5-ingredient-oven-roasted-chicken-thighs-and-red-peppers


----------



## Nomoss

Isobella said:


> I remember most of those, NaN called Chitlin chitlin and bag. Don’t know what it was but it looked disgusting. There was steamed puddings every day at school, hardly anyone overweight. ............................


Chitlin,/chitterlings are the large intestine of pigs or cows. Bag, I think, is the stomach, or part of same.

They are OK to eat, so long as you boil the sh*t out of them.

My stepfather used to eat them with vinegar, although no-one else did.

My mother used to boil them up for him, as well as tripe.

My sister and I used to go out into the garden, or for a long walk while this was happening


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> Given how this virus and many others begins through food chains involving animals ( maybe medicines in far eastern cultures too) it certainly provides a strong argument for dietary changes. Coupled in with environmental issues you can see that this might lead to a very persuasive argument for lifestyle changes that in turn will apply pressure on those governments and organisations that still feel like protecting the status quo


But it won't. Farming is also political and you'd need a very strong political change to get changes in food supplies and production and that would be political suicide in many countries.


----------



## kaipa

Pesky Wesky said:


> kaipa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Given how this virus and many others begins through food chains involving animals ( maybe medicines in far eastern cultures too) it certainly provides a strong argument for dietary changes. Coupled in with environmental issues you can see that this might lead to a very persuasive argument for lifestyle changes that in turn will apply pressure on those governments and organisations that
> still feel like protecting the status
> 
> But it won't. Farming is also political and you'd need a very strong political change to get changes in food supplies and production and that would be political suicide in many countries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh well...we can just wait until the next virus has killed enough and a vaccine proves impossible before the penny drops
Click to expand...


----------



## Isobella

Nomoss said:


> Chitlin,/chitterlings are the large intestine of pigs or cows. Bag, I think, is the stomach, or part of same.
> 
> They are OK to eat, so long as you boil the sh*t out of them.
> 
> My stepfather used to eat them with vinegar, although no-one else did.
> 
> My mother used to boil them up for him, as well as tripe.
> 
> My sister and I used to go out into the garden, or for a long walk while this was happening


Ah now I remember, forgot about the vinegar The tripe too, either small pieces with vinegar or tripe and onions stewed in milk. I think they only give trip to dogs now.

The Spanish family I lived with part of my Uni course used to eat chicken claws. I wonder if some still do that.

Another I remember, Brawn from a sheeps head. Boil the whole head. pick all the bits off it then press it. YUK


----------



## Nomoss

Isobella said:


> Ah now I remember, forgot about the vinegar The tripe too, either small pieces with vinegar or tripe and onions stewed in milk. I think they only give trip to dogs now.
> 
> The Spanish family I lived with part of my Uni course used to eat chicken claws. I wonder if some still do that.
> 
> Another I remember, Brawn from a sheeps head. Boil the whole head. pick all the bits off it then press it. YUK


When I was hitch-hiking through Greece with a friend in the early 60's, after our van broke down and was abandoned, we were broke, and hoping to get money sent from the UK once we reached a large town with a bank.

A kind man picked us up, and when he stopped at a café, asked if we would like a cup of coffee. He then said we looked a bit hungry, so would we prefer soup?, to which we said we would.

Unfortunately it was sheep's head soup, and also smelt slightly high, but when he asked us if we'd like something different we didn't want to hurt his feelings, so accepted it.

Mine had an eyeball floating in it. I felt I should eat it without comment, as it was probably a treat, so summoning all my bravado, I bit into it. It just popped gently, like a grape, and filled my mouth with a pleasant tasting, viscous, slightly salty liquid, reminiscent of a well know familiar nasal secretion.


----------



## Nomoss

Isobella said:


> Ah now I remember, forgot about the vinegar The tripe too, either small pieces with vinegar or tripe and onions stewed in milk. I think they only give trip to dogs now. .......................................


It's quite popular in Majorca and Cataluña. 

I tried it once. The gravy tasted OK.

I also found the same when I was persuaded by the waiter to try _all i pebre (de anguilas_) in the swamp _(L'Albufera)_ south of Valencia.


----------



## mrypg9

Nomoss said:


> Chitlin,/chitterlings are the large intestine of pigs or cows. Bag, I think, is the stomach, or part of same.
> 
> They are OK to eat, so long as you boil the sh*t out of them.
> 
> My stepfather used to eat them with vinegar, although no-one else did.
> 
> My mother used to boil them up for him, as well as tripe.
> 
> My sister and I used to go out into the garden, or for a long walk while this was happening


In our house chitlin was known as pig's innards. I think my Nan used to fry them. As well as black pudding we had white pudding, not sure what the difference was. My local Saturday night restaurant does Morcillo as a primera plata, I suppose it's aka black pudding.
We had black and white pudding fried for weekend breakfast. I think vinegar was on the table when we had chitlin but I wouldn't have applied it. We never had tripe, it was seen as some strange Northern dish. 
I also recall Dorset blue vinny cheese, Bath chaps and brawn. Lovely grub now extinct.

I remember coming back from University full of all the new unfamiliar things I'd learned to eat and wanting to introduce them into our meal times. I made my Nan a plate of spaghetti Bolognese, which for me t the time was the height of culinary sophistication. My nan peered t the plate, pushed it away and said 'Some folk 'ud eat **** if 'twere wrapped in fancy paper'.

I gave up after that.


----------



## mrypg9

Isobella said:


> Ah now I remember, forgot about the vinegar The tripe too, either small pieces with vinegar or tripe and onions stewed in milk. I think they only give trip to dogs now.
> 
> The


I've only eaten tripe once in my life, in Poland in the 1970s. As was usual in those days there were twenty or more items on the menu in any restaurant of which usually only two were actually available. I learned my first phrases in Polish that way: 'Juz nie ma ale jutro bendie' translated 'We've not got that now but we'll have it tomorrow'. 
Of the two items on the menu one was translated as 'Piece of meat' and I was suspicious as to what meat so I opted for the second which turned out to be a delicious dish of small pieces of tripe in a herby tomato sauce. I think there's a similar French dish called 'Tripes a la mode de Caen'.
After I found out what I'd eaten I was irrationally horrified and never ate tripe again.


----------



## Overandout

mrypg9 said:


> In our house chitlin was known as pig's innards. I think my Nan used to fry them. As well as black pudding we had white pudding, not sure what the difference was. My local Saturday night restaurant does *Morcillo* as a primera plata, I suppose it's aka black pudding.
> We had black and white pudding fried for weekend breakfast. I think vinegar was on the table when we had chitlin but I wouldn't have applied it. We never had tripe, it was seen as some strange Northern dish.
> I also recall Dorset blue vinny cheese, Bath chaps and brawn. Lovely grub now extinct.
> 
> I remember coming back from University full of all the new unfamiliar things I'd learned to eat and wanting to introduce them into our meal times. I made my Nan a plate of spaghetti Bolognese, which for me t the time was the height of culinary sophistication. My nan peered t the plate, pushed it away and said 'Some folk 'ud eat **** if 'twere wrapped in fancy paper'.
> 
> I gave up after that.


Morcillo is a cut of beef, not a blood sausage. That's morcilla. Quite different!


----------



## Lynn R

Isobella said:


> Ah now I remember, forgot about the vinegar The tripe too, either small pieces with vinegar or tripe and onions stewed in milk. I think they only give trip to dogs now.
> 
> The Spanish family I lived with part of my Uni course used to eat chicken claws. I wonder if some still do that.
> 
> Another I remember, Brawn from a sheeps head. Boil the whole head. pick all the bits off it then press it. YUK


We had special tripe shops in the North of England - black tripe and white tripe I remember, and honeycomb tripe but couldn't for the life of me explain the difference. My Dad used to like it and I have eaten it cold with vinegar (and white pepper) when I was a kid but we never had it stewed. I couldn't eat it now no matter who it offended.

The tripe shops sold brawn too, and something called elder which was yellowish in colour, no doubt made from something disgusting but I don't know what. Also ox tongue and roast heart, the roast heart I did like.

The shops are long gone, of course. There was, in fact, a whole chain of them, UCP (United Cattle Products) although the one in my hometown was a small independent one.

http://www.unitedcattleproducts.co.uk/


----------



## Isobella

Lynn R said:


> We had special tripe shops in the North of England - black tripe and white tripe I remember, and honeycomb tripe but couldn't for the life of me explain the difference. My Dad used to like it and I have eaten it cold with vinegar (and white pepper) when I was a kid but we never had it stewed. I couldn't eat it now no matter who it offended.
> 
> The tripe shops sold brawn too, and something called elder which was yellowish in colour, no doubt made from something disgusting but I don't know what. Also ox tongue and roast heart, the roast heart I did like.
> 
> The shops are long gone, of course.


Yes it was the North I was remembering. I remember cows udder would it be like the elder? never tasted it. A lot of the stuff I have mentioned used to be from a German butchers. Very popular, always a queue, was more a sort of Charcuterie than a conventional butchers.


----------



## Lynn R

Isobella said:


> I remember cows udder would it be like the elder? never tasted it.


Yeuuugh, yes could well be. I never tasted it either.


----------



## 95995

Lynn R said:


> We had special tripe shops in the North of England - black tripe and white tripe I remember, and honeycomb tripe but couldn't for the life of me explain the difference. My Dad used to like it and I have eaten it cold with vinegar (and white pepper) when I was a kid but we never had it stewed. I couldn't eat it now no matter who it offended.
> 
> The tripe shops sold brawn too, and something called elder which was yellowish in colour, no doubt made from something disgusting but I don't know what. Also ox tongue and roast heart, the roast heart I did like.
> 
> The shops are long gone, of course. There was, in fact, a whole chain of them, UCP (United Cattle Products) although the one in my hometown was a small independent one.
> 
> Welcome to the United Cattle Products supporters' site | UnitedCattleProducts.co.uk


I liked ox tongue, but not much else


----------



## Nomoss

I introduced my wife to roast heart, and now she loves them, especially lambs' hearts with sage and onion stuffing.


----------



## Alcalaina

Isobella said:


> Some you mention are in Spain too. We once went for breakfast travelling to Antequera. Really busy transport caff place. Noticed many were having toast and dripping so we had it. Really good, they brought a large pile of toast and a dish of dripping with lots of brown jello at the bottom. Black pudding is also popular in Spain too. There is an upmarket tapas bar just off the paseo in Marbella has various types and everyone I know says it is the best ever.


Tostadas con manteca (pork lard), usually with chunks of pork in it, or manteca colorá (flavoured with paprika) is standard breakfast fare here. It is totally delicious but god knows what it does to one's arteries. Presumably nothing bad because they live to ripe old age. 

I like all kinds of sausage, black pudding, morcón, salchicon etc. There is a small factory in my town which makes them from local pigs, so they are available in every corner shop. Same with goats' cheese, our main industry. Fruit and veg grown nearby, whatever is in season. The only things I get from a supermarket (or rather OH does) are beer, wine, milk etc, never fresh food. I used to live on M&S ready-meals when I was working in England, don't think I could keep one down now.


----------



## Barriej

Nomoss said:


> I introduced my wife to roast heart, and now she loves them, especially lambs' hearts with sage and onion stuffing.


Cant beat stuffed hearts either lamb or pig. Lumpy mash and onion gravy....

Not had kidneys for ages, simply sliced in half coated with seasoned flour and lightly fried. But can't stand liver.

I also love eels, stewed of course and its something that Ive had in Spain, so once we finally get there Im going to make sure its something I have on a regular basis. 
Also saw live eels in the supermarket in La Nucia when we were over in late Feb....So I can always do my own.


----------



## Williams2

Crikey you do wonder about the antics of some people during the lockdown !!!



Video of an incident in Torremolinos

Olivepress report on the above incident


----------



## Tigerlillie

Williams2 said:


> Crikey you do wonder about the antics of some people during the lockdown !!!
> 
> 
> 
> Video of an incident in Torremolinos
> 
> Olivepress report on the above incident


If you read to the end of the article it says she is to be assessed for mental health issues. You do not know this woman so do not judge until the truth is known, I would not class this behaviour as just a prank. I have mental health issues and mine is classed as an ALD here in France which means there is no cure for it and it has to be controlled with medication everyday for the rest of my life. However, if you were to meet me in real life you would never guess there was anything wrong with me unless I'd stopped taking my medication.


----------



## Williams2

Serious cases of Domestic abuse on the rise during the lockdown.

BBC News - When home gets violent during the lockdown in Europe


----------



## Tigerlillie

Williams2 said:


> Serious cases of Domestic abuse on the rise during the lockdown.
> 
> BBC News - When home gets violent during the lockdown in Europe


It must be a living nightmare for adults and children alike during this lockdown when it comes to domestic violence, many children who suffer abuse be that physical, verbal or otherwise have only one escape really and that is when they go to school, there they can escape their abusers, the same goes for adults (men and women) who at least have periods during the day when they can escape for a few hours or so at times.
I can't even begin to imagine what they must be going through during this period of confinement with no escape 24/7. I dread to think how many of these who might (or are thinking of ways to) commit suicide.


----------



## Megsmum

Tigerlillie said:


> It must be a living nightmare for adults and children alike during this lockdown when it comes to domestic violence, many children who suffer abuse be that physical, verbal or otherwise have only one escape really and that is when they go to school, there they can escape their abusers, the same goes for adults (men and women) who at least have periods during the day when they can escape for a few hours or so at times.
> I can't even begin to imagine what they must be going through during this period of confinement with no escape 24/7. I dread to think how many of these who might (or are thinking of ways to) commit suicide.


My daughter and I had this discussion the other day, it’s just inconceivable to imagine the torment that many youngsters from babies to teenagers are going through with no ability to leave or challenge. 

How is everyone on here coping, I’m up and down, I think about what we have just discussed and try to push it out of my mind. The daily death tolls are such large numbers that they seem unreal. My friends who are working in London look absolutely drained. 
Take care everyone


----------



## baldilocks

Megsmum said:


> How is everyone on here coping,


We are managing quite well. Because of my age and underlying health conditions, I am not allowed out other than to take the dogs for a short (200m) walk when I rarely see anybody and there is enough room to make 2m separation easy to achieve. SWMBO goes to a nearby supermarket, panadería, fishmonger-cum-greengrocer to get our supplies and also does the other walks with the dogs.

SWMBO is still teaching but over the internet. Her mother is housebound anyway and either is on the computer or watching TV and thus is content.


----------



## Tigerlillie

Megsmum said:


> My daughter and I had this discussion the other day, it’s just inconceivable to imagine the torment that many youngsters from babies to teenagers are going through with no ability to leave or challenge.
> 
> How is everyone on here coping, I’m up and down, I think about what we have just discussed and try to push it out of my mind. The daily death tolls are such large numbers that they seem unreal. My friends who are working in London look absolutely drained.
> Take care everyone


I'm up and down too at the moment, luckily for me I have a wonderful doctor who has given me extra medication should I need it. I have given up watching the news on tv because I just can't do it anymore, I still read the newspapers online (french and english) and that's bad enough. I decided last Thursday to take a complete break from the news for 3 days and only caught up with some of it yesterday. I will switch the french news on tonight as The President is going to make another announcement, I fully expect no lifting of the confinement until at least the beginning of May. I think it was Mary in another thread who said Spanish confinement could last perhaps until around 10th May. I can see that happening in France as well as we went into lockdown about 3 days after Spain did.

Already on expatforum there is a member who has lost a sibling due to this virus, she lives in Mexico but is French, her sibling was under 60 with no underlying health issues and was a frontline worker in the french healthcare sector. He was married and leaves behind a wife and young children.
This virus does not discriminate between healthy people or those with other health issues.

You take care as well MM and everyone else who posts or lurks on this particular forum or any of the others and above all else stay safe.


----------



## Alcalaina

Megsmum said:


> How is everyone on here coping, I’m up and down, I think about what we have just discussed and try to push it out of my mind. The daily death tolls are such large numbers that they seem unreal. My friends who are working in London look absolutely drained.
> Take care everyone


Personally, the isolation isn't a problem for me. I'm quite happy communicating with others online rather than face to face, and I have a comfortable house with everything I need, including a private roof terrace which I make full use of.

I worry terribly about the future though, not my own but the community I live in and the country as a whole. Spain will once again be massively in debt (all this ECB money will have to be paid back, it's not a gift) which will mean another ten years of austerity probably far worse than what we saw before. Politically it will be a nightmare and I live in fear of the far right taking advantage of the situation for its own ends, and gaining power.

So the way I avoid getting stressed out is to live for the moment, keep busy (plenty more local history to research) and enjoy the small pleasures of life, like the nightingale singing outside my window.

Stay safe everyone - and stay SANE! :grouphug:


----------



## Overandout

Alcalaina said:


> Personally, the isolation isn't a problem for me. I'm quite happy communicating with others online rather than face to face, and I have a comfortable house with everything I need, including a private roof terrace which I make full use of.
> 
> I worry terribly about the future though, not my own but the community I live in and the country as a whole. Spain will once again be massively in debt (all this ECB money will have to be paid back, it's not a gift) which will mean another ten years of austerity probably far worse than what we saw before. Politically it will be a nightmare and I live in fear of the far right taking advantage of the situation for its own ends, and gaining power.
> 
> So the way I avoid getting stressed out is to live for the moment, keep busy (plenty more local history to research) and enjoy the small pleasures of life, like the nightingale singing outside my window.
> 
> Stay safe everyone - and stay SANE! :grouphug:


I share most of these views.

Personally, having been quite ill for three weeks made the lockdown quite bareable in a strange way. It seems normal to be inside when you have fever and ills.

But now that I am significantly better (still have an irritating cough, but no fever) and also having had some time off work for Easter, it's true that it started to get me down a bit over the weekend.

There is no such thing as a perfect situation, but compared to many (thinking of victims of family abuse in line with recent comments) we are very lucky. Both me and my wife have permanent contracts and are working from home, so at least in the short term we are still earning full wages. We have a reasonable sized apartment with a balcony, our kids are up to date with their school work, so I count myself as very lucky, despite having the virus.

But the future looks very, very bleak. I have never felt so at risk of being made redundant. Even in the last crisis, it was localised, so I was extremely lucky to be moved to Thailand whilst Europe recovered. A similar option won't be available this time.

I know that worrying doesn't solve problems, but I can't help but think like Alcalaina in terms of the political and economic future for Spain. I hope we can collectively ride this through, but the rough rides are not going to be over when we get "let out", for some they will only just begin I fear.


----------



## Brangus

On top of many of the concerns expressed by others above, it is starting to feel surreal where I live. The view from our apartment now features a homeless shelter set up due to Covid-19. When we look out the window there is frequently some sort of police force outside or men in spooky hazmat gear spraying disinfectant.

Due to feeling on edge, I don't sleep as well and have lost a couple of kilos, which is fine, but not my preferred way to lose weight.

On top of that, our local supermarket no longer carries gochujang, and we have only sriracha and harissa on hand, which are not the same. 

Seriously though, I can't imagine the stress felt by others who are more affected by this than I am.


----------



## Williams2

Just out of interest are children specifically excluded ( either in the lockdown rules or some 'it's best to
do this during the lockdown' ) from accompanying their parents, when venturing outside to seek
or do their necessities like dog walking, going to and from the farmacia or shopping in the supermarket
in Spain.

Have there been instances where parents have been refused entry to a Supermaket because they
had brought along their child or children with them ?


----------



## kaipa

Williams2 said:


> Just out of interest are children specifically excluded ( either in the lockdown rules or some 'it's best to
> do this during the lockdown' ) from accompanying their parents, when venturing outside to seek
> or do their necessities like dog walking, going to and from the farmacia or shopping in the supermarket
> in Spain.
> 
> If so are fines being issued to parents caught outside with a child ?


Interesting. Saw today that certain groups are wanting there to be a lifting of restrictions to allow children to go out for fresh air, exercise etc. One problem seems to be they need to bd accompanied by adults so it leads to lots of problems. Questions also being asked about if schools return before June end. How would it work with secondary children going to and fro school especially if many adults still confined. How do you control social distancing with groups of children? Would they need to wear masks? How do you protect teachers? Big questions that at some point need to be dealt with


----------



## Williams2

kaipa said:


> Interesting. Saw today that certain groups are wanting there to be a lifting of restrictions to allow children to go out for fresh air, exercise etc. One problem seems to be they need to bd accompanied by adults so it leads to lots of problems. Questions also being asked about if schools return before June end. How would it work with secondary children going to and fro school especially if many adults still confined. How do you control social distancing with groups of children? Would they need to wear masks? How do you protect teachers? Big questions that at some point need to be dealt with


For me it's one of the big things that makes the lockdowns feel *eerie* is the sudden 
and complete absence of children, particularly children accompanying their parents
( who would no doubt be in the same family unit in their lockdown home or apartment )

Which makes me wonder 'have sanctions been applied to parents' who have brought
along their child or children when going out shopping for necessities and been refused entry
as a result.
Understandable in a way but I'm not going to trawl through Spanish law and google
translating it - if someone can kindly post the relevant lockdown law for me, as I'm
busy today.


----------



## Overandout

Williams2 said:


> Just out of interest are children specifically excluded ( either in the lockdown rules or some 'it's best to
> do this during the lockdown' ) from accompanying their parents, when venturing outside to seek
> or do their necessities like dog walking, going to and from the farmacia or shopping in the supermarket
> in Spain.
> 
> Have there been instances where parents have been refused entry to a Supermaket because they
> had brought along their child or children with them ?


Children are allowed to accompany an adult when the adult carries out a justified journey or activity only in single adult households where the only other alternative is leaving a minor unattended, which obviously should never happen.


----------



## Williams2

Overandout said:


> Children are allowed to accompany an adult when the adult carries out a justified journey or activity only in single adult households where the only other alternative is leaving a minor unattended, which obviously should never happen.


But what about them accompanying their parents into the supermarket, as I've yet to encounter children
accompanying their parents round the supermarket, since the lockdowns began in my neck of the 
woods.

Never seen them in the queues waiting to go in and never seen them waiting outside for their
parents to leave the supermarket either. Strange !!

Unless these are Supermarket rules for their customers to follow during the lockdown ??


----------



## Overandout

Williams2 said:


> But what about them accompanying their parents into the supermarket, as I've yet to encounter children
> accompanying their parents round the supermarket, since the lockdowns began in my neck of the
> woods.
> 
> Never seen them in the queues waiting to go in and never seen them waiting outside for their
> parents to leave the supermarket either. Strange !!
> 
> Unless these are Supermarket rules for their customers to follow during the lockdown ??


It must happen, and the single parent would be in their right to take the child to the shop. But in reality I guess that most Spanish single parents live close to the grandparents or even with them, so leaving the child with an adult is not an issue.

Just a guess.


----------



## 95995

Williams2 said:


> But what about them accompanying their parents into the supermarket, as I've yet to encounter children
> accompanying their parents round the supermarket, since the lockdowns began in my neck of the
> woods.
> 
> Never seen them in the queues waiting to go in and never seen them waiting outside for their
> parents to leave the supermarket either. Strange !!
> 
> *Unless these are Supermarket rules for their customers to follow during the lockdown ??*


Unless where you live people can go shopping without leaving their children home alone, or have someone else do the shopping for them.


----------



## kaipa

As far as I know children cannot accompany adults unless: they live in a single parent family. Given that most single parent spanish choose to live near family I guess it isnt a big issue.
Children of separated parents can visit different homes but must be accompanied


----------



## Williams2

kaipa said:


> As far as I know children cannot accompany adults unless: they live in a single parent family. Given that most single parent spanish choose to live near family I guess it isnt a big issue.
> Children of separated parents can visit different homes but must be accompanied


Whatever so far - I've noticed no child or children accompanying their parents on all the occasions I've visited 
Mercadona & Carrefour in whats the 6th week of lockdown ( not even in a queue ) whereas before 
I've never known a single occasion where I've visited the same city Supermarkets without seeing children.

Of course its sensible and understandable under the circumstances but in another sense Eerie !!

Obviously if some kind poster can post the relevant Spanish law or Supermarket regulalations ( during
the Alarm ) pertaining to the above, I'll be grateful as I'm busy today.


----------



## kaipa

TBH alot of kids dont actually want to go out shopping. My kid wouldn't come even if he had the chance!!. In fact, a lot of kids are probably enjoying this lock down more than some adults think. Kids can spend all day on their phones , talking with friends or playing on Xbox. Plus my kid loves not having to get up at 6.30 and the fact he can stay up late. As far as studies go, well a lot of that is down to parents taking responsibility for encouraging, motivating and where possible helping their children. It's not easy but then I feel some parents abdicate this side of parenting to school which is wrong. Also feel this is a good time to teach children about self- discovery and independent learning. These are important soft skills that are not really taught in spain which means many kids in spain lack problem solving skills and organisational skills which they require for higher educational programs. So all in all there are some positives to be found in all this


----------



## Overandout

And what about our old presidente, Mariano Rajoy then?

It turns out he's been going out walking every morning since the lockdown started, despite some of his neighbours complaining.

In the end one of them secretly recorded him and sent the video to "La Sexta" who have been happily playing it on their news programs today.

Now, I'm no fan of M. Rajoy, but I think this is going too far. 

How many times have we been told to not be "balcony police" and not to judge others without knowing the circumstances? Yet now it's acceptable to record someone in the street without their consent and send it to a TV station?

Yes I know that the privacy laws make exceptions for "famous" people and that it can be shown if "in the public interest", but I really hope that the person who sent the video to the TV had sent it to the police beforehand... and even if they did, it was a video from Sunday apparently, so they hardly gave the police much time to act on it.


----------



## Alcalaina

Overandout said:


> And what about our old presidente, Mariano Rajoy then?
> 
> It turns out he's been going out walking every morning since the lockdown started, despite some of his neighbours complaining.
> 
> In the end one of them secretly recorded him and sent the video to "La Sexta" who have been happily playing it on their news programs today.
> 
> Now, I'm no fan of M. Rajoy, but I think this is going too far.
> 
> How many times have we been told to not be "balcony police" and not to judge others without knowing the circumstances? Yet now it's acceptable to record someone in the street without their consent and send it to a TV station?
> 
> Yes I know that the privacy laws make exceptions for "famous" people and that it can be shown if "in the public interest", but I really hope that the person who sent the video to the TV had sent it to the police beforehand... and even if they did, it was a video from Sunday apparently, so they hardly gave the police much time to act on it.


Giving that it was under his watch that the Ley de Mordaza was introduced, I don't have any sympathy.


----------



## kaipa

Overandout said:


> And what about our old presidente, Mariano Rajoy then?
> 
> It turns out he's been going out walking every morning since the lockdown started, despite some of his neighbours complaining.
> 
> In the end one of them secretly recorded him and sent the video to "La Sexta" who have been happily playing it on their news programs today.
> 
> Now, I'm no fan of M. Rajoy, but I think this is going too far.
> 
> How many times have we been told to not be "balcony police" and not to judge others without knowing the circumstances? Yet now it's acceptable to record someone in the street without their consent and send it to a TV station?
> 
> Yes I know that the privacy laws make exceptions for "famous" people and that it can be shown if "in the public interest", but I really hope that the person who sent the video to the TV had sent it to the police beforehand... and even if they did, it was a video from Sunday apparently, so they hardly gave the police much time to act on it.



Well La Sexta were the ones who found him in the restaurant on the day he was being voted out in Parliament and Gran Wyoming hates Rajoy so I'm not surprised they sent it to them. Anyway the guy was responsible for allowing so much Spanish public money to be siphoned off to corrupt officials that probably could have gone to hospitals etc, so let's not be giving him too much sympathy


----------



## Overandout

I'm all for witholding the sympathy, but look at the responses people got when they suggested that Boris might not be completely innocent in his catching the virus.... I stayed out of that one, but here I don't like the double standards very much.

I'm sure he has a big enough garden (that we all paid for) to walk around, and I'm pretty sure that he won't have a good excuse for his daily walks, but we don't know, and the right way to deal with this was to report it to the authorities, not a TV station.


----------



## kaipa

Overandout said:


> I'm all for witholding the sympathy, but look at the responses people got when they suggested that Boris might not be completely innocent in his catching the virus.... I stayed out of that one, but here I don't like the double standards very much.
> 
> I'm sure he has a big enough garden (that we all paid for) to walk around, and I'm pretty sure that he won't have a good excuse for his daily walks, but we don't know, and the right way to deal with this was to report it to the authorities, not a TV station.


How do we know it wasnt reported to the police? Maybe it was. I'm sure it has now anyway. And he is outside in a public place and I cant see his dog or his shopping bag. There again, maybe he has become a doctor and was off to work. Who know? One things for sure: he helped deprive this country of millions of Euros that should have gone to the Spanish people not his chronic bunch of ex PP executives!!!


----------



## Williams2

EverHopeful said:


> Unless where you live people can go shopping without leaving their children home alone, or have someone else do the shopping for them.


Oviedo's a big city Everhopeful and as I said before never known it before in all the years I've been living here,
not even during holidays.

So I can only assume the Supermarket Security guards been turning them away, if found in the queue.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Williams2 said:


> Oviedo's a big city Everhopeful and as I said before never known it before in all the years I've been living here,
> not even during holidays.
> 
> So I can only assume the Supermarket Security guards been turning them away, if found in the queue.


I've been to the supermarket 3 times since lockdown and have not seen one single child, which is indeed eerie. In fact as everyone is doing the shopping on their own, there is no conversation which makes it very quiet and just not Spanish. I have just come back from the supermarket actually and there were a lot more masks and people did seem more relaxed which made it a bit of a better experience in one way, but it did make me think that people are going to find it difficult to keep this up much longer. The first time I went, the woman at the till was terrified and shouting continuously at people to put gloves on. The staff didn't have masks and few customers did. People kept a gap of about three metres going and were reluctant to look at each other in the eye. Now the supermarkets are better equipped. All the staff had masks. The tills had a plastic barrier. Most customers came with their own gloves, but I did notice that milling around people were getting closer and not hanging back so much to get what they wanted if someone else was there first. There was a little bit of chatting going on...


----------



## 95995

Williams2 said:


> Oviedo's a big city Everhopeful and as I said before never known it before in all the years I've been living here,
> not even during holidays.
> 
> *So I can only assume the Supermarket Security guards been turning them away, if found in the queue*.


I very much doubt it. And it is not quite the same thing as holidays


----------



## kaipa

It seems that we are all just going to have to adapt to social distancing as form of social behaviour. There was a virologist in The Guardian saying that he believed a vaccine could actually be years away. He was saying that it could become a virus we have to live with but that anti-viral medicine we could treat people


----------



## Williams2

EverHopeful said:


> I very much doubt it. And it is not quite the same thing as holidays


With you as always - lets agree to disagree, not going to bandy words with you sunshine, so thank you 
and bye, bye !!


----------



## Williams2

Pesky Wesky said:


> I've been to the supermarket 3 times since lockdown and have not seen one single child, which is indeed eerie. In fact as everyone is doing the shopping on their own, there is no conversation which makes it very quiet and just not Spanish. I have just come back from the supermarket actually and there were a lot more masks and people did seem more relaxed which made it a bit of a better experience in one way, but it did make me think that people are going to find it difficult to keep this up much longer. The first time I went, the woman at the till was terrified and shouting continuously at people to put gloves on. The staff didn't have masks and few customers did. People kept a gap of about three metres going and were reluctant to look at each other in the eye. Now the supermarkets are better equipped. All the staff had masks. The tills had a plastic barrier. Most customers came with their own gloves, but I did notice that milling around people were getting closer and not hanging back so much to get what they wanted if someone else was there first. There was a little bit of chatting going on...


I agree noticeably more masks today, maybe as a result of their greater availabilty and also see some people 
wearing full plastic face visors on top of face masks as well.

Maybe silence is golden during such times but I would welcome the supermarkets playing their background 
music again.


----------



## 95995

kaipa said:


> It seems that we are all just going to have to adapt to social distancing as form of social behaviour. There was a virologist in The Guardian saying that he believed a vaccine could actually be years away. He was saying that it could become a virus we have to live with but that anti-viral medicine we could treat people


Well, that is certainly what they have been saying in pretty much all of Europe, Australia and elsewhere for some time. The vaccine, if they can actually develop an effective one, is at least 18 months to 2 years away. There is more hope for a range of treatments though, some of which could be available in the not too distant future.

But then of course, we get back to whether the virus might mutate.

After all, seasonal influenza remains with us and requires a new vaccine each year(and arguably more often).


----------



## kalohi

Pesky Wesky said:


> I've been to the supermarket 3 times since lockdown and have not seen one single child, which is indeed eerie. In fact as everyone is doing the shopping on their own, there is no conversation which makes it very quiet and just not Spanish. I have just come back from the supermarket actually and there were a lot more masks and people did seem more relaxed which made it a bit of a better experience in one way, but it did make me think that people are going to find it difficult to keep this up much longer. The first time I went, the woman at the till was terrified and shouting continuously at people to put gloves on. The staff didn't have masks and few customers did. People kept a gap of about three metres going and were reluctant to look at each other in the eye. Now the supermarkets are better equipped. All the staff had masks. The tills had a plastic barrier. Most customers came with their own gloves, but I did notice that milling around people were getting closer and not hanging back so much to get what they wanted if someone else was there first. There was a little bit of chatting going on...


Wow, this has not been my experience at all. I've also been to the supermarket twice. Both times there are was queue to get in (with people standing at a good social distance from each other), and absolutely everyone in the queue was happily chatting away with the other people. It seemed like everyone was thrilled to be able to socialize somewhat. And both times everyone was wearing a mask and gloves (I believe it's required at supermarkets? Is that an Andalucia thing?) and all the workers were too. Inside they had the typical background music playing and people didn't seem to hesitate to chat with others. It all seemed very normal - except we were all wearing masks and gloves. And as you said, everyone was on their own. Although that's not necessarily a bad thing - no massive 3 generation family groups clogging up the aisles!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kalohi said:


> Wow, this has not been my experience at all. I've also been to the supermarket twice. Both times there are was queue to get in (with people standing at a good social distance from each other), and absolutely everyone in the queue was happily chatting away with the other people. It seemed like everyone was thrilled to be able to socialize somewhat. And both times everyone was wearing a mask and gloves (I believe it's required at supermarkets? Is that an Andalucia thing?) and all the workers were too. Inside they had the typical background music playing and people didn't seem to hesitate to chat with others. It all seemed very normal - except we were all wearing masks and gloves. And as you said, everyone was on their own. Although that's not necessarily a bad thing - no massive 3 generation family groups clogging up the aisles!


 It's not required, especially as only since yesterday have masks been widely available in many areas... Maybe some supermarkets give them out. The places I've been to have insisted on gloves and provided them for those who don't have them, but not masks. I didn't wear one
The music has always been playing, but interjected with long voiceovers about we "We have good news.Today is one day less of confinement! Thank you to you and all our staff, bla, bla bla" (Ahora Más) and non stop videos about how to put on/ take off masks and gloves safely (Carrefour). I found it all very much like living a film, touches of BladeRunner...
I am not used to going to supermarkets for big shopping trips as we get fruit and veg directly from a farmer and have meat, fish, eggs and cleaning products etc delivered through a consumers group so maybe that affects my judgement. It takes so long and I just can't wait to get out of there!
Also, I haven't had to wait to get in on the three occasions that I've been. Nor at the chemists when I went, in fact I was the only person for miles around on that occasion!


----------



## mickbcn

kalohi said:


> Yes, private health care covers emergency health cover - at a private health facility.
> 
> But if you suspect you might have caught coronavirus you're not to go to any health facililty at all, but to phone a special hotline number. Each area of Spain has set up its own number. Since I don't know where you are I can't help you find the number for your area.


061 in Catalonia


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> I've been to the supermarket 3 times since lockdown and have not seen one single child, which is indeed eerie. In fact as everyone is doing the shopping on their own, there is no conversation which makes it very quiet and just not Spanish. I have just come back from the supermarket actually and there were a lot more masks and people did seem more relaxed which made it a bit of a better experience in one way, but it did make me think that people are going to find it difficult to keep this up much longer. The first time I went, the woman at the till was terrified and shouting continuously at people to put gloves on. The staff didn't have masks and few customers did. People kept a gap of about three metres going and were reluctant to look at each other in the eye. Now the supermarkets are better equipped. All the staff had masks. The tills had a plastic barrier. Most customers came with their own gloves, but I did notice that milling around people were getting closer and not hanging back so much to get what they wanted if someone else was there first. There was a little bit of chatting going on...


My daughter has been doing our shopping. Until my second hip is actually done & I've recovered from it, there's no hope of me navigating the hill with a shopping trolley. On her return from her first trip she told me that she had thanked the woman on the till for working & that she had tears in her eyes & thanked her for thanking her - & actually speaking to her! 

Our part of town is like a village. You see the same people all the time & the locals use the same smallish supermarket. 

After her last trip she said more or less what you said. People are a little more relaxed & talking to each other at least - or rather shouting to each other over a distance. 

As it's a small supermarket they only allow a few in at a time, & it's possible to avoid others - not even being in the same aisle as someone else, though she said that it's uncomfortable if someone does come near you. 

For someone with anxiety already this is hard for her & I hope that it doesn't make her worse in the long run. At the moment though she almost looks forward to the shopping trips. It seems that being told that she can't go out has made her want to!


----------



## baldilocks

mickbcn said:


> 061 in Catalonia


061 in Andalucía will get you an ambulance.


----------



## Nomoss

Bloody amazing. Viva España!

https://cronicaglobal.elespanol.com/vida/gran-confusion-coronavirus-varios-telefonos-diferentes-emergencia_325416_102.html


Another comment.

https://www.elespanol.com/espana/politica/20200312/espana-unico-pais-europa-numeros-emergencia-coronavirus/473954177_0.html


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Nomoss said:


> Bloody amazing. Viva España!
> 
> https://cronicaglobal.elespanol.com/vida/gran-confusion-coronavirus-varios-telefonos-diferentes-emergencia_325416_102.html


Yes, many of the problems faced by Spain in this crisis have come from or have been exasperated by the lack of National Health Service policies. I hope this changes in the future


----------



## Alcalaina

Not really surprising given that there are 17 different health authorities.

Can we leave this as a sticky somewhere?


> El 061, en Cataluña
> En algunas comunidades, como Asturias y Cantabria, el 112 es el teléfono de referencia.
> En Cantabria también se puede llamar al 061, el teléfono de referencia, asimismo, para Cataluña, Islas Baleares y Aragón.
> 
> En el resto de autonomía se ofrecen diferentes números de teléfono: Andalucía (955 545 060), Castilla La Mancha (900 122 112), Castilla y León (900 222 000), Ceuta (900 720 692), Comunidad Valenciana (900 300 355), Galicia (900 400 116), Canarias (900 112 061), La Rioja (941 298 333), Murcia (900 121 212), Navarra (948 290 290) y País Vasco (900 20 30 50).


----------



## tebo53

It is with great sadness that I have to mention the loss of a few local businesses as a result of COVID-19.
A local bra manufacturer has gone bust, a submarine company has gone under, a manufacturer of food blenders has gone into liquidation, a dog kennel has had to call in the retrievers and a company supplying paper for origami enthusiasts has folded.
Local strip club has gone tits up, Interflora is pruning its business and Dynorod has gone down the drain. The saddest one though is the ice cream van man found dead covered in nuts and raspberry sauce. He couldn't take it any more and topped himself.

🤣🤣🤣


----------



## kaipa

Have any of the spanish speakers seen the news about what is happening with the schools? I see they have finished the meeting and I understand that they have approved a form of evaluación that will allow nearly all student to pass the year apart from in excepcional circumstanes
There also appears to be an opportunity for students who need help to attend schools in July but that this is not obligatory. I also think they say the year will end as usual in june but I dont see anything about when of if schools will return before June
Anyone with better spanish able to get more details?


----------



## Overandout

kaipa said:


> Have any of the spanish speakers seen the news about what is happening with the schools? I see they have finished the meeting and I understand that they have approved a form of evaluación that will allow nearly all student to pass the year apart from in excepcional circumstanes
> There also appears to be an opportunity for students who need help to attend schools in July but that this is not obligatory. I also think they say the year will end as usual in june but I dont see anything about when of if schools will return before June
> Anyone with better spanish able to get more details?


I have read a short report which says that basically there was never any serious proposal to "automatically" pass every child.
There is an agreement to assess the year on the results of the first two terms results which counts for approx 65% of the school year content.
The third term will count however if students who do not have sufficient grades from the first two terms (i.e. thay can still catch up). Evn then, there will be optional extra classes in summer for those who need it, either for educational purposes (to pass the year) or for economic / social reasons.
The intention is to pass every child except for those who really cannot justify passing the year.
There seems to be no mention of the schools opening again before the summer.


----------



## kaipa

Yes, that's basically how I read it.
Any idea if the schools will actually go back before summer?


----------



## Overandout

kaipa said:


> Yes, that's basically how I read it.
> Any idea if the schools will actually go back before summer?


It doesn't say so directly, but it reads as if they won't. Why would there be voluntary classes in July if they were going to go back in May or June?

I don't think they will go back this year, and if they do it won't count towards the course.


----------



## kaipa

Yes that seems logical. I assume this will apply to all schools, even private academies?


----------



## Overandout

kaipa said:


> Yes that seems logical. I assume this will apply to all schools, even private academies?


No, this only refers to obigatory education for children.

Private academies will probably be treated as non-essential businesses like gyms and cinemas for example.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

A few more things that were stated about education today,
The term would not be shorter or longer. The dates for finishing before lockdown will stay the same.
Students in FP who were due to do work experience in this time will do projects (as yet unspecified what this will actually involve)
The only students to fail will be those with well argumented cases like those who did no exams for example before or after lockdown
Schools could be opened in the summer for those who want to study. No new material would be presented. They would be classes "de refuerzo" = remedial/ revision. I imagine these classes would not be taught be the usual school teachers, but they would be sub contracted to private companies.


----------



## kaipa

Pesky Wesky said:


> A few more things that were stated about education today,
> The term would not be shorter or longer. The dates for finishing before lockdown will stay the same.
> Students in FP who were due to do work experience in this time will do projects (as yet unspecified what this will actually involve)
> The only students to fail will be those with well argumented cases like those who did no exams for example before or after lockdown
> Schools could be opened in the summer for those who want to study. No new material would be presented. They would be classes "de refuerzo" = remedial/ revision. I imagine these classes would not be taught be the usual school teachers, but they would be sub contracted to private companies.


Yes Pesky I think that is where it's at. It seems a way of satisfying everyone without indulging stressing students or teachers alike. It also has a degree of flexibility to help teachers. I assume that they intend to keep the schools closed as they would only possibly be open for at the most 6 weeks and that's assuming they were to start on 26 th which seems very unlikely. I was wondering what will happen with private academies etc. Will they be bound by same rules?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> Yes Pesky I think that is where it's at. It seems a way of satisfying everyone without indulging stressing students or teachers alike. It also has a degree of flexibility to help teachers. I assume that they intend to keep the schools closed as they would only possibly be open for at the most 6 weeks and that's assuming they were to start on 26 th which seems very unlikely. I was wondering what will happen with private academies etc. Will they be bound by same rules?


 As Overandout said, private academies are not the same as centres for obligatory education. An academy is an extra like shops selling perfume and sunglasses. It's like a death threat to many businesses. I have friends who have an academies. It's all online or phone classes. Did your academy lose all its classes?
If by any chance you're looking for work, look here for people advertising for teachers for online classes. They probably pay crap, but you could give it a go
https://www.lingobongo.com/madrid/list.php?section=jobs
There are also loads of webinars and the like about teaching online...


----------



## Ifn

andyviola said:


> Thanks. I. Incredibly concerned as we were unable to get public health care (yet) and so i don't even know if we use the emergency health care if worst happens????
> Of course we have private health care but i have no clue if this covers emergency medical care?


When I had an accidental tripping (tripping my body, not lsd), I was taken care of by some nearby emergency workers. Afterwards I went to a hospital and after a couple of weeks I went to my nearby health center and had the stitches taken out. I don’t have Spanish health insurance. I received a bill for under €300. I’m from the USA and can only imagine what it would have cost there.
And during these times it might be a good idea to go to the website of your insurer or email them to find out what they cover.


----------



## Ifn

On my street in Madrid, people have been faithfully coming out at 8pm to clap for the health care workers but also for the police cars, garbage trucks and the little bus that comes down the street. One night 3 police cars passed, blasting “We Will Survive” . When I happen to be Skyping my family in the USA at the same time, I’ll take my iPad out to the balcony and let them clap for me. 
Since I live alone, clapping time is my only chance to see other, unmasked, human beings! And I’ll have a short conversation with my next door neighbor. I’ve been making bread for them and the husband gives me delicious soups and stews, left at my front door. 
I also fermented sauerkraut this week. Lots of time on my hands. Maybe I should be cleaning more? I did make up a spray bottle of water and a little bleach and I wipe down my doorknobs, light switches, etc. I’ve been out 3 times since mid March to go shopping for groceries. Walking thru the empty, sunny Plaza del Sol to the Cortes Ingles grocery. It’s impossible to maintain social distancing there because of the narrow aisles. They only have all purpose and whole wheat flour now, no more rye or spelt or bread flour. 
I sewed some masks, which came out Awful Embarrassing but functional. 
I’m taking my spanish classes on zoom, Skyping and writing to everyone I know, or barely know...and watching way too much news, in English and Spanish.
Before the lockdown here, I was visiting family and friends in the USA. At the beginning of March, I decided to come back early. Strangely, I feel more at home here. 
One of my Spanish cousins just had twins in Galicia. I wonder if I’ll ever ever ever get to see them.
Before I left on vacation I had started the process of getting spanish citizenship because my father was born in Galicia. The paperwork was submitted to the court. Of course, now that is all on hold.
Lastly, since I’m a painter, I painted a life size figure and tacked it to my wall. I used the paper that is stuffed into Amazon boxes. Hey, it’s someone to talk to.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Ifn said:


> On my street in Madrid, people have been faithfully coming out at 8pm to clap for the health care workers but also for the police cars, garbage trucks and the little bus that comes down the street. One night 3 police cars passed, blasting “We Will Survive” . When I happen to be Skyping my family in the USA at the same time, I’ll take my iPad out to the balcony and let them clap for me.
> Since I live alone, clapping time is my only chance to see other, unmasked, human beings! And I’ll have a short conversation with my next door neighbor. I’ve been making bread for them and the husband gives me delicious soups and stews, left at my front door.
> I also fermented sauerkraut this week. Lots of time on my hands. Maybe I should be cleaning more? I did make up a spray bottle of water and a little bleach and I wipe down my doorknobs, light switches, etc. I’ve been out 3 times since mid March to go shopping for groceries. Walking thru the empty, sunny Plaza del Sol to the Cortes Ingles grocery. It’s impossible to maintain social distancing there because of the narrow aisles. They only have all purpose and whole wheat flour now, no more rye or spelt or bread flour.
> I sewed some masks, which came out Awful Embarrassing but functional.
> I’m taking my spanish classes on zoom, Skyping and writing to everyone I know, or barely know...and watching way too much news, in English and Spanish.
> Before the lockdown here, I was visiting family and friends in the USA. At the beginning of March, I decided to come back early. Strangely, I feel more at home here.
> One of my Spanish cousins just had twins in Galicia. I wonder if I’ll ever ever ever get to see them.
> Before I left on vacation I had started the process of getting spanish citizenship because my father was born in Galicia. The paperwork was submitted to the court. Of course, now that is all on hold.
> Lastly, since I’m a painter, I painted a life size figure and tacked it to my wall. I used the paper that is stuffed into Amazon boxes. Hey, it’s someone to talk to.


 Hey there Ifn,
Glad you're doing ok, more or less!
Yes, thank goodness for the clapping, the only opportunity we have of seeing other people!
I live with other people, but we don't see that much of each other. During the day we are locked into various rooms working via phone and video calls. We meet for lunch, clapping and an evening activity...


----------



## Ifn

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hey there Ifn,
> Glad you're doing ok, more or less!
> Yes, thank goodness for the clapping, the only opportunity we have of seeing other people!
> I live with other people, but we don't see that much of each other. During the day we are locked into various rooms working via phone and video calls. We meet for lunch, clapping and an evening activity...


Clapping is the new kissing.:clap2:


----------



## kaipa

Pesky Wesky said:


> kaipa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes Pesky I think that is where it's at. It seems a way of satisfying everyone without indulging stressing students or teachers alike. It also has a degree of flexibility to help teachers. I assume that they intend to keep the schools closed as they would only possibly be open for at the most 6 weeks and that's assuming they were to start on 26 th which seems very unlikely. I was wondering what will happen with private academies etc. Will they be bound by same rules?
> 
> 
> 
> As Overandout said, private academies are not the same as centres for obligatory education. An academy is an extra like shops selling perfume and sunglasses. It's like a death threat to many businesses. I have friends who have an academies. It's all online or phone classes. Did your academy lose all its classes?
> If by any chance you're looking for work, look here for people advertising for teachers for online classes. They probably pay crap, but you could give it a go
> https://www.lingobongo.com/madrid/list.php?section=jobs
> There are also loads of webinars and the like about teaching online...
Click to expand...

Thanks for that. I assumed that the private academies were subject to the same rules as state education bodies. The reason for this is that, language schools, were told to close all classes when the various communities closed public schools back in March. This occured before the lockdown for restaurants, gyms etc. That's why I am interested in what happens in state schools


----------



## Williams2

Pesky Wesky said:


> I've been to the supermarket 3 times since lockdown and have not seen one single child, which is indeed eerie.


The mayor of Barcelona has made a plea on Facebook to "free Spain’s children". Spain is the only European country where all children are barred from going outside for any reason.

Mayor of Barcelona - Ada Colau Ballano plea about Child lockdown restrictions


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## Joppa

Children's plight during the lockdown:
https://english.elpais.com/society/...ronavirus-lockdown-is-affecting-children.html


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## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> Not really surprising given that there are 17 different health authorities.
> 
> Can we leave this as a sticky somewhere?


Done. Thanks.


----------



## Overandout

Williams2 said:


> The mayor of Barcelona has made a plea on Facebook to "free Spain’s children". Spain is the only European country where all children are barred from going outside for any reason.
> 
> Mayor of Barcelona - Ada Colau Ballano plea about Child lockdown restrictions


This will be a controversial topic I'm sure but, here's my 2p worth.

I have 2 kids (8 and 12) in a three bedroomed apartment. They have not even put on a pair of shoes in a month.

They form part of one of the most dangerous groups of the population, i.e. the ones most likely to be symptomless carriers of the virus.

I do not want them to go outside until I know it is safe, not just for them, but for everyone else.

I am firmly of the view that people in general cannot be trusted. We can't allow kids to be outside for "just an hour" or "at a maximum of 200m from home", these rules will be bent and broken by a big proportion of people and the authorities will be unable to control it. And in any case what good do these restrictions do?

I explain to my children that they can't go outside and why, and they accept it. They have to. The same way they accept that they have to attend school, eat broccoli or sleep at night, even if they don't want to.

Some kids might get upset and be more of a handful than mine, I accept that. But it is just one or two months of an entire childhood... it is not going to destroy them!

I know that this isn't the case with Ada Colau's comments but I am so fed up with parents commenting on social media that dogs are given more rights than children, how come dogs can go out in the street and my kids can't?

Well, thankfully, my kids are more intelligent than dogs and can be reasoned with and have things explained to them in a language they understand. They have also been taught to use a bathroon to do their necessities. Let's stop pretending that kids' lives are being destroyed by this "blip" in their routines and give them the respect they deserve as humans, not ignorant animals.


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## kaipa

I total agree with Overandout. My kid is 13 and to be honest the idea of walking with his dad is not high on his list things to do! It's not ruining kids lives unless you arent a kid and that means an adult who thinks kids think like them which thankfully they dont. Kids these days dont want lives like Huckleberry Finn. They are the new digital generation and they like it. What's important is everyone getting used to this new form of living because as the scientists are now starting to say this is not over on the 26th of April but likely to continue into 2022.


----------



## CltFlyboy

Ifn said:


> When I had an accidental tripping (tripping my body, not lsd), I was taken care of by some nearby emergency workers. Afterwards I went to a hospital and after a couple of weeks I went to my nearby health center and had the stitches taken out. I don’t have Spanish health insurance. I received a bill for under €300. I’m from the USA and can only imagine what it would have cost there.
> And during these times it might be a good idea to go to the website of your insurer or email them to find out what they cover.


I can tell you how bad it would be here. One of my sons fell and hurt his wrist so we took him to the doctor. All the clinics were closed so it was the ER on a slow evening. Literally nobody in the waiting room. He was in and out in less than 30 minutes wit an X-ray and splint - nothing broken.

Total bill (not kidding) - $3000.00 AFTER insurance.

Our healthcare system in the US is by and far the most dysfunctional of all developed nations. By far.


----------



## Lynn R

CltFlyboy said:


> I can tell you how bad it would be here. One of my sons fell and hurt his wrist so we took him to the doctor. All the clinics were closed so it was the ER on a slow evening. Literally nobody in the waiting room. He was in and out in less than 30 minutes wit an X-ray and splint - nothing broken.
> 
> Total bill (not kidding) - $3000.00 AFTER insurance.
> 
> Our healthcare system in the US is by and far the most dysfunctional of all developed nations. By far.


It never ceases to amaze me why the American people put up with it (and so many of them defend it to the hilt and abhor the idea of socialised medicine). We have private health insurance here in Spain (although we're covered by the public system too). It currently costs €150 per month for the two of us, now aged 63 and 70, and there are NO co-payments or deductibles (or an excess as we call it) at all. It paid for me to have heart valve repair surgery (plus an 8 day stay in intensive care afterwards and 3 nights in a normal hospital room) and cardiac catheterisation the day before surgery, not to mention all the other tests and consultations leading up to it, and I paid nothing apart from the normal monthly premiums.


----------



## CltFlyboy

Lynn R said:


> It never ceases to amaze me why the American people put up with it (and so many of them defend it to the hilt and abhor the idea of socialised medicine). We have private health insurance here in Spain (although we're covered by the public system too). It currently costs €150 per month for the two of us, now aged 63 and 70, and there are NO co-payments or deductibles (or an excess as we call it) at all. It paid for me to have heart valve repair surgery (plus an 8 day stay in intensive care afterwards and 3 nights in a normal hospital room) and cardiac catheterisation the day before surgery, not to mention all the other tests and consultations leading up to it, and I paid nothing apart from the normal monthly premiums.


I wholeheartedly agree! I shake my head every time the conversations start here about how "bad" socialized medicine is - it is truly astounding how many people here refuse to look at factual data from the rest of the countries with industrialized societies. And it's yet another reason that we are going to relocate to Spain in the next several years.


----------



## Overandout

CltFlyboy said:


> I wholeheartedly agree! I shake my head every time the conversations start here about how "bad" socialized medicine is - it is truly astounding how many people here refuse to look at factual data from the rest of the countries with industrialized societies. And it's yet another reason that we are going to relocate to Spain in the next several years.



Is it a case that people see social medicine (public health) as a compulsory insurance? Even a communist ideology?

I get the feeling that some Americans resent the thought of paying into a system which, if they never get ill, will never use. And even worse, someone else might get the benefit of their contribution. They would rather be given the choice to contribute (insure themselves) or not (gamble).

Believe it or not we have similar attitudes in Spain, I have heard many times in Spain comments like "we should have 6 months paternity leave like the Swedish do" or "why don't my kids get free school books like the Danish do?", but when posed the question if they want to pay 40% tax on their incomes insetad of 19%, then they are not so keen. It's not that different perhaps?


----------



## Dominic Lopecas

Williams2 said:


> The mayor of Barcelona has made a plea on Facebook to "free Spain’s children". Spain is the only European country where all children are barred from going outside for any reason.
> 
> Mayor of Barcelona - Ada Colau Ballano plea about Child lockdown restrictions


GENERALITY BANANAS REPUBIC, can do what they liked it isn't my business what Generality Bananas Republic do, but health and Safety lows are there for a reason and common sense should be to priority.


----------



## CltFlyboy

Overandout said:


> Is it a case that people see social medicine (public health) as a compulsory insurance? Even a communist ideology?
> 
> I get the feeling that some Americans resent the thought of paying into a system which, if they never get ill, will never use. And even worse, someone else might get the benefit of their contribution. They would rather be given the choice to contribute (insure themselves) or not (gamble).
> 
> Believe it or not we have similar attitudes in Spain, I have heard many times in Spain comments like "we should have 6 months paternity leave like the Swedish do" or "why don't my kids get free school books like the Danish do?", but when posed the question if they want to pay 40% tax on their incomes insetad of 19%, then they are not so keen. It's not that different perhaps?


Yes - people here have a strong sense of entitlement and anything that would impede their individual management of their resources like this is seen as deeply socialistic/communistic. Funny thing is that those same people will staunchly defend our Social Security program without thinking about the fact that it's a socialist program. Add to that being a free market capitalistic society driven by quarterly profits and dividends and you get a system that actually penalizes people for getting ill. The drug Insulin is a good example - the BBC did a very good article on this last year. The same methodology applies throughout most of our medical system.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47491964

I personally believe that if we make all of those around us comfortable and successful then the net effect is to increas our own quality of life. So instead of hoarding money and resources "because it's mine!" if we help others achieve freedom then society as a whole benefits. Call me overly altruistic but I truly believe that if humanity could achieve this we would see an incredibly peaceful world where people followed their hearts and minds and increased the total value of human existence.


----------



## Lynn R

Overandout said:


> They would rather be given the choice to contribute (insure themselves) or not (gamble).


But the system in the USA isn't even a good deal for those who do pay for insurance - take the example quoted by CitFlyBoy who had to pay 3k for a simple emergency room procedure, in spite of having health insurance. That's what I find so hard to understand, surely they can't think that represents good value.

I agree with you about people wanting top notch services and benefits whilst only being prepared to pay low rates of tax, though.


----------



## Overandout

Lynn R said:


> But the system in the USA isn't even a good deal for those who do pay for insurance - take the example quoted by CitFlyBoy who had to pay 3k for a simple emergency room procedure, in spite of having health insurance. That's what I find so hard to understand, surely they can't think that represents good value.


True. That's a fair point, although maybe we shoulkd ask ourselves if America is expensive or if Spain is cheap?

I have some experience of private health care in the UK and that was very expensive compared to Spanish coverage. 

I think that we, in Spain are very comfortable with our "cheap" lifestyle, low cost private health care is an example of that, as is eating in a great restaurant for 18€ per person. But rarely do we stop to think that this is because the nurse in the hospital earns 850€ / month and lives with her parents at 35 years old, or the waiter at the restaurant earns 600€ / month and has to do cash in hand work outside of his shift to survive.


----------



## Lynn R

Overandout said:


> True. That's a fair point, although maybe we shoulkd ask ourselves if America is expensive or if Spain is cheap?
> 
> I have some experience of private health care in the UK and that was very expensive compared to Spanish coverage.
> 
> I think that we, in Spain are very comfortable with our "cheap" lifestyle, low cost private health care is an example of that, as is eating in a great restaurant for 18€ per person. But rarely do we stop to think that this is because the nurse in the hospital earns 850€ / month and lives with her parents at 35 years old, or the waiter at the restaurant earns 600€ / month and has to do cash in hand work outside of his shift to survive.


But nurses in the UK (some of them at any rate) say they sometimes have to resort to using food banks to get by. Wages are higher there than they are in Spain, no question, but so are property prices, rents, Council Tax having to be paid on top of rents, transport costs and so on. If a Spanish nurse is part of a couple both earning 850€ a month, then they could afford to pay rent on an apartment and live, without having to claim tax credits or Housing Benefit as top ups (just as well as there aren't any here!) although they certainly wouldn't be well off. After this crisis is over we really ought to be looking at the workers who have been proved to be the most indispensable to society and changing around who should be higher and lower paid.

From what I know of private medical insurance in the UK. I agree it's expensive. My brother has BUPA coverage through an employer's scheme. When he needed spinal surgery he ended up having to pay 1k out of his own pocket on top of the insurance premiums as BUPA said the fee charged by the surgeon who was doing his operation was higher than they were prepared to pay (that was a surgeon at one of their own BUPA hospitals, by the way). They said he could either find another surgeon, "negotiate" ie haggle with the surgeon to reduce his fee or pay the difference himself. That really isn't my idea of having health insurance.


----------



## 95995

Lynn R said:


> But nurses in the UK (some of them at any rate) say they sometimes have to resort to using food banks to get by. Wages are higher there than they are in Spain, no question, but so are property prices, rents, Council Tax having to be paid on top of rents, transport costs and so on.
> 
> From what I know of private medical insurance in the UK. I agree it's expensive. My brother has BUPA coverage through an employer's scheme. When he needed spinal surgery he ended up having to pay 1k out of his own pocket on top of the insurance premiums as BUPA said the fee charged by the surgeon who was doing his operation was higher than they were prepared to pay (that was a surgeon at one of their own BUPA hospitals, by the way). They said he could either find another surgeon, "negotiate" ie haggle with the surgeon to reduce his fee or pay the difference himself. That really isn't my idea of having health insurance.


Overandout though mentioned among other examples a 35 year old nurse having to live with her parents. I think a great many expats in Spain, eg. retirees, are able to take advantage of what for them is a cheap country and they can eg. buy homes far cheaper and of a higher standard than in the UK, whereas for many Spanish workers life is a daily struggle to pay for even the most basic food and accommodation because wages are so extremely low (and that despite the recent increase in the minimum wage.


----------



## jimenato

CltFlyboy said:


> ...I personally believe that if we make all of those around us comfortable and successful then the net effect is to increase our own quality of life...


That's what I feel about the UK and EU as well.


----------



## CltFlyboy

Overandout said:


> True. That's a fair point, although maybe we shoulkd ask ourselves if America is expensive or if Spain is cheap?
> 
> I have some experience of private health care in the UK and that was very expensive compared to Spanish coverage.
> 
> I think that we, in Spain are very comfortable with our "cheap" lifestyle, low cost private health care is an example of that, as is eating in a great restaurant for 18€ per person. But rarely do we stop to think that this is because the nurse in the hospital earns 850€ / month and lives with her parents at 35 years old, or the waiter at the restaurant earns 600€ / month and has to do cash in hand work outside of his shift to survive.


I'd have to say it's some of both. Here in the US if you don't work for a great company that subsidizes your insurance you can expect to pay somewhere over $1500/month for a family of four. That gets you okay coverage with high deductibles. It's really, really bad here.

On the same note healthcare workers aren't high wage earners either. There are a lot of issues with the unseen costs that get rolled up to the person seeking treatment. Even things like lawyers feed, malpractice insurance, etc get reflected in the costs. Our system is so dysfunctional and in my opinion needs to be recreated - preferably by leveraging what's worked so well for other countries. But we'll never do that since we're "America, we do things better than anyone". This is incredibly irritating to those of us of higher intelligence who understand just how incredibly backwards this is.

We really need to get over to Spain and it's going to suck now that we can't do the trip we had planned for this year.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> Thanks for that. I assumed that the private academies were subject to the same rules as state education bodies. The reason for this is that, language schools, were told to close all classes when the various communities closed public schools back in March. This occured before the lockdown for restaurants, gyms etc. That's why I am interested in what happens in state schools


Well, what won't happen (I think) is that academies will start up _*before*_ schools do, so if the general feeling is that schools won't go back to normal classes until September then academies won't be able to function on a physical class basis. Really, atm, they are focussing on exams which let's face it is typically Spanish and I don't mean Cambridge English exams. The latest (heard on the news today 16th April) was that the EBAU (antigua selectividad) exam taken at the end of secondary school will be taken in July with social distancing in place so in Madrid they are thinking of using IFEMA exhibition centre which right now is being used as an overflow COVID 19 hospital, supposedly because it's big and I presume it has air conditioning because depending on the year, the heat in July can be suffocating and state schools usually don't have air conditioning.


----------



## Overandout

Lynn R said:


> But nurses in the UK (some of them at any rate) say they sometimes have to resort to using food banks to get by. Wages are higher there than they are in Spain, no question, but so are property prices, rents, Council Tax having to be paid on top of rents, transport costs and so on. If a Spanish nurse is part of a couple both earning 850€ a month, then they could afford to pay rent on an apartment and live, without having to claim tax credits or Housing Benefit as top ups (just as well as there aren't any here!) although they certainly wouldn't be well off. After this crisis is over we really ought to be looking at the workers who have been proved to be the most indispensable to society and changing around who should be higher and lower paid.
> 
> From what I know of private medical insurance in the UK. I agree it's expensive. My brother has BUPA coverage through an employer's scheme. When he needed spinal surgery he ended up having to pay 1k out of his own pocket on top of the insurance premiums as BUPA said the fee charged by the surgeon who was doing his operation was higher than they were prepared to pay (that was a surgeon at one of their own BUPA hospitals, by the way). They said he could either find another surgeon, "negotiate" ie haggle with the surgeon to reduce his fee or pay the difference himself. That really isn't my idea of having health insurance.


Yes, it is relative, and I hope no-one thinks that I am suggesting that nurses or waiters in the UK or US earn "too much". Just that they probably earn a fairer wage in relation to living costs.

Actually it reminds me of one night when my wife and I were going out in Madrid one Saturday night and we were on the Metro.
In the same carriage were two young (by my standards, maybe mid-late 20s) American girls talking very loudly in English to each other. One said to the other "so why do you think the Spanish hate us so much?" the other replied "oh come on, it's so obvious that they're jealous of how much money we've got".

My wife and I just looked at each other and smiled, resisting the temptation to say something. But looking back, it makes me wonder how many 26 year old Spanish girls could afford to be out on a Saturday night in New York, San Francisco or wherever.


----------



## Lynn R

Overandout said:


> Yes, it is relative, and I hope no-one thinks that I am suggesting that nurses or waiters in the UK or US earn "too much". Just that they probably earn a fairer wage in relation to living costs.
> 
> Actually it reminds me of one night when my wife and I were going out in Madrid one Saturday night and we were on the Metro.
> In the same carriage were two young (by my standards, maybe mid-late 20s) American girls talking very loudly in English to each other. One said to the other "so why do you think the Spanish hate us so much?" the other replied "oh come on, it's so obvious that they're jealous of how much money we've got".
> 
> My wife and I just looked at each other and smiled, resisting the temptation to say something. But looking back, it makes me wonder how many 26 year old Spanish girls could afford to be out on a Saturday night in New York, San Francisco or wherever.


Just out of interest, I did a few sums. A band 5 nurse in the UK would take home 1.6k per month after paying tax, national insurance and the nursing registration fee. Sounds a lot compared to the 850€ in Spain (would they get 14 salary payments per year, by the way?). But Megsmum on the forum has quoted her daughter paying 1.3k per month for a small flat in the South of England, and add on to that probably 100 per month in Council Tax. Rents would be lower in the North, for example, but little difference in Council Tax. They also have to pay car parking charges at work. Suddenly it doesn't look so much better.

It's hard for a single person in either country, on low wages, to be able to maintain their own household.


----------



## fortrose52

I know from this forum that unemployment and wages in Spain are awful. But my oldest son is a very skint, frugal mature student in Edinburgh. He has never earned, before going back to study, more than the minimum wage which he had to run a flat on for years. My youngest son is 28, furloughed from Travelodge. He is staying with me to save up to go back to do a post-grad. Who knows when. My middle son is a teacher in London. None of them can see a time, no matter how hard they have worked, when they will be really independent. Don't know when i will get rid of the youngest. But i worry most, right now, about my son in London. He is on a working rota at school. He takes a tube and a bus to get there, cheek by jowl with everybody else who must work, then spends the day with the kids, parents and everybody else who comes into the school. When he is off- rota, ie at home, he is equally vulnerable. He lives in a house-share with 8 people he doesn't know. It is all he can afford. He locksdown/online lessons for 2 weeks at a time, (then school for 2 weeks) in one room. No outside space. This is equally worrying, mental health etc. He shares a kitchen and bathroom with strangers and will never afford a place of his own in his view. So it is all relative to many people.


----------



## kaipa

Pesky Wesky said:


> kaipa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for that. I assumed that the private academies were subject to the same rules as state education bodies. The reason for this is that, language schools, were told to close all classes when the various communities closed public schools back in March. This occured before the lockdown for restaurants, gyms etc. That's why I am interested in what happens in state schools
> 
> 
> 
> Well, what won't happen (I think) is that academies will start up _*before*_ schools do, so if the general feeling is that schools won't go back to normal classes until September then academies won't be able to function on a physical class basis. Really, atm, they are focussing on exams which let's face it is typically Spanish and I don't mean Cambridge English exams. The latest (heard on the news today 16th April) was that the EBAU (antigua selectividad) exam taken at the end of secondary school will be taken in July with social distancing in place so in Madrid they are thinking of using IFEMA exhibition centre which right now is being used as an overflow COVID 19 hospital, supposedly because it's big and I presume it has air conditioning because depending on the year, the heat in July can be suffocating and state schools usually don't have air conditioning.
Click to expand...

Again I agree. They shut academies when the state schools shut so they wont allow them to open until July when they will open state schools for this extra reinforcement class. And I also have read that Selectividad will go ahead in July with Social distancing and that the exam will not include third trimester contents and students will be evaluated on first and second trimester notas not third. Seems a good compromiso as it stop kids stressing about this trimester
Not sure how they will conduct classes in academies in July and after.Presumably masks and gloves and severely reducing class size as many academies are just flats with small rooms. And here lies the problem 4 students per room will mean less income and lower wages. Cant see many schools surviving this one unless that have large aulas


----------



## Love Karma

Lynn R said:


> Just out of interest, I did a few sums. A band 5 nurse in the UK would take home 1.6k per month after paying tax, national insurance and the nursing registration fee. *Sounds a lot compared to the 850€ in Spain* (would they get 14 salary payments per year, by the way?). But Megsmum on the forum has quoted her daughter paying 1.3k per month for a small flat in the South of England, and add on to that probably 100 per month in Council Tax. Rents would be lower in the North, for example, but little difference in Council Tax. They also have to pay car parking charges at work. Suddenly it doesn't look so much better.
> 
> It's hard for a single person in either country, on low wages, to be able to maintain their own household.


Where do you get that figure from? They earn far more than that on average

https://www.enfermeria21.com/revist...vicios-publicos-de-salud-del-norte-de-espana/


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## Lynn R

Love Karma said:


> Where do you get that figure from? They earn far more than that on average
> 
> https://www.enfermeria21.com/revist...vicios-publicos-de-salud-del-norte-de-espana/


It was the figure quoted by Overandout in the post I was replying to. Better ask him.


----------



## Love Karma

Lynn R said:


> It was the figure quoted by Overandout in the post I was replying to. Better ask him.


No need, I just thought you may have had an accurate official source before you started doing comparisons with similar in the U.K. in your post


----------



## Megsmum

My academy decided to close after speaking to parents of the younger students and the older students taking Cambridge exams. We are both teaching FOC our exam students via Skype and email.

We are in a small town with a loyal clientele with many siblings etc coming through the school. My boss is as confident as she can be that we will build up the classes again. However, both our issues are simply the self employed appear to have been forgotten. I have gone Baja for April and May but will need to pay in June regardless of working or not. So that’s €300 euros down and no income. I will then go Baja in July and August and hope we return in September.


----------



## Megsmum

Love Karma said:


> No need, I just thought you may have had an accurate official source before you started doing comparisons with similar in the U.K. in your post


Hi

You posted te other day about someone not able to board a flight back to Spain as he did not have his marriage certificate, do you have a link to that please as according to the Spanish embassy in the U.K. I only need my green residency card?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Megsmum said:


> My academy decided to close after speaking to parents of the younger students and the older students taking Cambridge exams. We are both teaching FOC our exam students via Skype and email.
> 
> We are in a small town with a loyal clientele with many siblings etc coming through the school. My boss is as confident as she can be that we will build up the classes again. However, both our issues are simply the self employed appear to have been forgotten. I have gone Baja for April and May but will need to pay in June regardless of working or not. So that’s €300 euros down and no income. I will then go Baja in July and August and hope we return in September.


 They have been talking about autónomo payments and some action is going to be/ has been taken. I'm not up on it as I'm still working and also I need to pay the quota no matter what... You can probably find some info somewhere about it


----------



## Overandout

Love Karma said:


> Where do you get that figure from? They earn far more than that on average
> 
> https://www.enfermeria21.com/revist...vicios-publicos-de-salud-del-norte-de-espana/


You are right, my 850€ was a guess for the lowest grade, I have nothing to back that up except anecdotal heresay.

But quoting a report on public service salaries is also irrelevant when we were talking about private care.

I guess a lot of us, like me, know nurses from Spain, or their families who are working in the UK. There are after all around 6000 of them. 
The ones I have spoken to (or rather their families still here) are very clear that their level of earnings are far better in the UK than in Spain. 
In fact the last person I spoke to about this was a mother of one such nurse who was desperate to move back to Spain but just could't afford it on the wages she would get. Maybe they were exagerating about the figures, but the perception is certainly there.


----------



## Love Karma

Megsmum said:


> Hi
> 
> You posted te other day about someone not able to board a flight back to Spain as he did not have his marriage certificate, do you have a link to that please as according to the Spanish embassy in the U.K. I only need my green residency card?


No I don't have a link to him as a person, it was the situation he found himself in, and is still in as he awaits a copy of his certificate. He is a human being not a website. He is hoping to get back next tuesday if his documentation comes through. They were questioning why he hadn't returned to his wife and home sooner plus wanted to know how he was going to get from Madrid to Estepa. He normally flies into Seville but No flights from UK at present.


----------



## 95995

Overandout said:


> You are right, my 850€ was a guess for the lowest grade, I have nothing to back that up except anecdotal heresay.
> 
> *But quoting a report on public service salaries is also irrelevant when we were talking about private care.*
> 
> I guess a lot of us, like me, know nurses from Spain, or their families who are working in the UK. There are after all around 6000 of them.
> The ones I have spoken to (or rather their families still here) are very clear that their level of earnings are far better in the UK than in Spain.
> In fact the last person I spoke to about this was a mother of one such nurse who was desperate to move back to Spain but just could't afford it on the wages she would get. Maybe they were exagerating about the figures, but the perception is certainly there.


Well, even for public service nurses, given the report itself talks about the differences between regions and talks averages, as opposed to medians. Not to mention that we do not know the purpose for which the report was produced by a company whose business is primarily recruitment.


----------



## Megsmum

Love Karma said:


> No I don't have a link to him as a person, it was the situation he found himself in, and is still in as he awaits a copy of his certificate. He is a human being not a website. He is hoping to get back next tuesday if his documentation comes through. They were questioning why he hadn't returned to his wife and home sooner plus wanted to know how he was going to get from Madrid to Estepa. He normally flies into Seville but No flights from UK at present.


I presumes this was something you had read. I contacted the Embassy again today. No further identification required other than my residency document and British Airways told me the same thing, very odd. With the U.K. in further lockdown for three weeks I’m presuming I will not be home until early June at the earliest.


----------



## Overandout

EverHopeful said:


> Well, even for public service nurses, given the report itself talks about the differences between regions and talks averages, as opposed to medians. Not to mention that we do not know the purpose for which the report was produced by a company whose business is primarily recruitment.


Indeed. I just Googled "how much does a nurse earn in Spain" (in Spanish) and here is the top result:

https://universidadeuropea.es/blog/cuanto-gana-un-enfermero-en-espana

Paraphrasing:

"base salary for a nurse is 1000€, for one who provides specialist services it could be around 1400€. Supervisors and coordinators can have a base salary of 1600€"

I was told less than 1.000, but if those figures are gross, maybe that wasn't far off the mark for a recntly qualified or trainee.


----------



## Lynn R

Overandout said:


> Indeed. I just Googled "how much does a nurse earn in Spain" (in Spanish) and here is the top result:
> 
> https://universidadeuropea.es/blog/cuanto-gana-un-enfermero-en-espana
> 
> Paraphrasing:
> 
> "base salary for a nurse is 1000€, for one who provides specialist services it could be around 1400€. Supervisors and coordinators can have a base salary of 1600€"
> 
> I was told less than 1.000, but if those figures are gross, maybe that wasn't far off the mark for a recntly qualified or trainee.


With 14 salary payments per year? If so that does increase the annual amount a bit.


----------



## Overandout

Lynn R said:


> With 14 salary payments per year? If so that does increase the annual amount a bit.


This is a bit misleading because in private companies where there are 14 payments (or more), the "extras" are not actually extras. They are 1/14th of the yearly salary paid every 6 months. But they form part of the contracted yearly salary.

For public workers however, these payments are extra-contractual payments, and have been reduced or even eliminated by the austerity measures for many workers, including in the health sector in recent years after the last crisis. The press at xmas last year was full of stories of unions demanding the reinstatment of these extras as they are still restricted / withdrawn.

So it depends on the contract, collective agreement and sector.


----------



## Lynn R

Overandout said:


> This is a bit misleading because in private companies where there are 14 payments (or more), the "extras" are not actually extras. They are 1/14th of the yearly salary paid every 6 months. But they form part of the contracted yearly salary.
> 
> For public workers however, these payments are extra-contractual payments, and have been reduced or even eliminated by the austerity measures for many workers, including in the health sector in recent years after the last crisis. The press at xmas last year was full of stories of unions demanding the reinstatment of these extras as they are still restricted / withdrawn.
> 
> So it depends on the contract, collective agreement and sector.


It's difficult to know when salary figures are quoted by the monthly amount, though, whether that means people receive 12 such payments or 14. If the annual figure was quoted it would be clearer. (I mean in articles/surveys, by the way, not by you)


----------



## Overandout

As a general rule:

Salaries quoted monthly are paid 12 times / year with "discretional" extras in June and December which often amount to the same as a monthly salary, or base. Many people argue that these should be seen legally as aquired rights due to long standing precedents.

Salaries quoted yearly is the total yearly pay which can be divided in 12, 14 or some cases 16 instalments.


----------



## baldilocks

Overandout said:


> As a general rule:
> 
> Salaries quoted monthly are paid 12 times / year with "discretional" extras in June and December which often amount to the same as a monthly salary, or base. Many people argue that these should be seen legally as aquired rights due to long standing precedents.
> 
> Salaries quoted yearly is the total yearly pay which can be divided in 12, 14 or some cases 16 instalments.


or even 13 (4-weekly payments) like UK OAP or my BR pension


----------



## Isobella

I once read an article about British Expat nurses living in Spain who worked 3 week in UK and 3 week ofF. Accommodation was provided. Can’t remember if it was NHS or private sector. Must have been lucrative to make it viable paying all the air flights.


----------



## kaipa

Just reading about schools in spain etc and you can see how different countries have clearly different attitudes to education. Germany and Denmark intend to open schools soon- their advisors seem focussed on children's health and psychology whereas Spain is more focussed on how to evaluate the students performance
You can see how spanish education remains very bound up in assessment and exams whereas more progressive ideologies reign in more northern europe where education is seen as a more holistic humanistic venture


----------



## Lynn R

Isobella said:


> I once read an article about British Expat nurses living in Spain who worked 3 week in UK and 3 week ofF. Accommodation was provided. Can’t remember if it was NHS or private sector. Must have been lucrative to make it viable paying all the air flights.


It would be, if accommodation is provided. Same with the British people living in Spain who travel back to work in the UK as live-in carers. Their accommodation, food and bills are all covered whilst there so of course it is worth them travelling back and forth.

But all the people I know who do it have to maintain a permanent base to live in in Spain, and it's only because accommodation costs are so much lower in Spain that they can afford to do that.


----------



## Alcalaina

Isobella said:


> I once read an article about British Expat nurses living in Spain who worked 3 week in UK and 3 week ofF. Accommodation was provided. Can’t remember if it was NHS or private sector. Must have been lucrative to make it viable paying all the air flights.


Agency nurses probably. Working in NHS hospitals to cover staff shortages, while earning private sector wages.


----------



## Dominic Lopecas

fortrose52 said:


> I know from this forum that unemployment and wages in Spain are awful. But my oldest son is a very skint, frugal mature student in Edinburgh. He has never earned, before going back to study, more than the minimum wage which he had to run a flat on for years. My youngest son is 28, furloughed from Travelodge. He is staying with me to save up to go back to do a post-grad. Who knows when. My middle son is a teacher in London. None of them can see a time, no matter how hard they have worked, when they will be really independent. Don't know when i will get rid of the youngest. But i worry most, right now, about my son in London. He is on a working rota at school. He takes a tube and a bus to get there, cheek by jowl with everybody else who must work, then spends the day with the kids, parents and everybody else who comes into the school. When he is off- rota, ie at home, he is equally vulnerable. He lives in a house-share with 8 people he doesn't know. It is all he can afford. He locksdown/online lessons for 2 weeks at a time, (then school for 2 weeks) in one room. No outside space. This is equally worrying, mental health etc. He shares a kitchen and bathroom with strangers and will never afford a place of his own in his view. So it is all relative to many people.


Unemployment in Spain is very good BUT ONLY IF YOU ARE A POLITICION, you can get reach within four years that you don't have to work ever again They politicians are having their hands on the till for their own interest and they people get nothing: Jose María Aznar(Adolf Higley mustangs) Pablo Iglesias Escobar (Cola de rabo de potro) and so on all are millenaries on the public taxes that they should be use for benefit of the Nation. Generality Bananas Republic has hep their politicians in Bruselas pay Spanish Government and their isn't a single job in Barcelona .
Are the Spanish people STUPY .?


----------



## Glynb

andyviola said:


> Thanks Pesky i hope they have some English operators. My wife has basic conversation in Spanish but she gets really nervous on the phone and kinda loses it.
> 
> I feel like our Spanish adventure is unravelling as I really hoped to get free health care with residency acheived but local "GP" insisted on social security number and for this we need a job and cant find one!


Did you manage to get Residency without Health care in place? We had to purchase a year's private Health Care in order to get residencia approved.

We do plan to go on to the State system next year which is cheeper and more comprehensive, but we can only do that after one year's full residencia in Spain (so to bridge the healthcare gap we had to buy private as EHIC didn't count).


----------



## Glynb

kaipa said:


> Just reading about schools in spain etc and you can see how different countries have clearly different attitudes to education. Germany and Denmark intend to open schools soon- their advisors seem focussed on children's health and psychology whereas Spain is more focussed on how to evaluate the students performance
> You can see how spanish education remains very bound up in assessment and exams whereas more progressive ideologies reign in more northern europe where education is seen as a more holistic humanistic venture


The UK is in Northern Europe and i've see the teaching profession complaining bitterly about it all focusing on assesment and exams rather than learning. So it's not purely a Southern European approach. Maybe it stems from trying to demonstrate 'value for money' in an area where that is so hard to quantify, once you get past the level of basic skills.


----------



## kaipa

Sánchez will ask for another prolongation to the state of alarm until 9th of May. They are also going to allow children under the age of 12 to go out with an adult but have not said exactly how this will work. Looks like the rest of us will have to remain in for at least another 3 more weeks. Probably longer given that they appear unable to test at a higher enough level and therefore they seem to be relying on infection numbers to decide when it will be safe to lift the confinement and those numbers have a long way to go until they down sufficiently


----------



## kaipa

Two other things Sanchez mentioned: a warning that the summer vacation period could be subject to restrictions ( hinted at closed beaches.Two: the government is going to fix a price for sales of masks and gels


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> Sánchez will ask for another prolongation to the state of alarm until 9th of May. They are also going to allow children under the age of 12 to go out with an adult but have not said exactly how this will work. Looks like the rest of us will have to remain in for at least another 3 more weeks. Probably longer given that they appear unable to test at a higher enough level and therefore they seem to be relying on infection numbers to decide when it will be safe to lift the confinement and those numbers have a long way to go until they down sufficiently


 Yes, this will be discussed in the senate today, and they will vote on extending the State of Alarm and the question of children going out *after the current State of Alarm finishes* which is the 27th of April, so no children in the streets before that. Also the definition of child has to be agreed, but they are thinking of *up to and including the age of 12. *The details have not been worked out, the how, what, why, when will be announced nearer the date


> "*Definiremos en la próximas semanas cuáles serán los criterios, requisitos y motivaciones* para que los niños puedan salir y bajo qué criterios de seguridad", ha añadido.


Another important idea in his speech was that* not all territories will necessarily return to normal activity at the same rate*


> Sánchez ha defendido que* la salida de la crisis no tiene por qué ser simétrica, como lo fue la respuesta "uniforme" y con los "máximos niveles de exigencia"* para hacer frente a la pandemia que tenía por objetivo atajar las crisis, especialmente allí "donde más duramente estaba golpeando"*.*





https://cadenaser.com/ser/2020/04/1...76.html?sma=newsEditorialSER_generico20200419


----------



## Williams2

Although Spain will not be relaxing the rule that children will be allowed outside ( with conditions ) 
until Monday 27th April.
Witnessed the first parent with his young daughter to be turned away at Carrefour today.


----------



## xabiaxica

Williams2 said:


> Although Spain will not be relaxing the rule that children will be allowed outside ( with conditions )
> until Monday 27th April.
> Witnessed the first parent with his young daughter to be turned away at Carrefour today.


Not that it's set in stone that the rule will be relaxed on 27/4, it is currently permitted to take a child shopping with you if they are too young to be left alone & you have no-one to care for them.


----------



## TraceyD

Megsmum said:


> I presumes this was something you had read. I contacted the Embassy again today. No further identification required other than my residency document and British Airways told me the same thing, very odd. With the U.K. in further lockdown for three weeks I’m presuming I will not be home until early June at the earliest.


Hi, we are stuck in the UK and desperate to get home to Spain. We both have resident cards and have just realised we can fly in to Malaga airport, pick up our car (we own itJ and then drive 50 minutes to our home. I don’t suppose you have heard what the roads are like in terms of being stopped by the Police?


----------



## Simon22

TraceyD said:


> Hi, we are stuck in the UK and desperate to get home to Spain. We both have resident cards and have just realised we can fly in to Malaga airport, pick up our car (we own itJ and then drive 50 minutes to our home. I don’t suppose you have heard what the roads are like in terms of being stopped by the Police?


I don't know about flying but you cannot have two people in one car (exceptions permitted).


----------



## Pesky Wesky

TraceyD said:


> Hi, we are stuck in the UK and desperate to get home to Spain. We both have resident cards and have just realised we can fly in to Malaga airport, pick up our car (we own itJ and then drive 50 minutes to our home. I don’t suppose you have heard what the roads are like in terms of being stopped by the Police?


 I don't suppose you have anything with you that would prove that the house you are going to is your permanent residence...? You are allowed to travel back to your house if it's your place of residence, but not if it's a holiday home. Here, at weekends they put up police controls on the roads and stop practically all the cars if not all (there is little traffic on the roads) . If you're going to work for example you have to have a letter with you to say that your are authorized to do so.
If you do fly back, it might be better during the week as I don't think there are so many controls


----------



## TraceyD

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't suppose you have anything with you that would prove that the house you are going to is your permanent residence...? You are allowed to travel back to your house if it's your place of residence, but not if it's a holiday home. Here, at weekends they put up police controls on the roads and stop practically all the cars if not all (there is little traffic on the roads) . If you're going to work for example you have to have a letter with you to say that your are authorized to do so.
> If you do fly back, it might be better during the week as I don't think there are so many controls


We own a lodge and pay ground rent so have an agreement I have on my emails I can show.....will definitely take your advice regarding weekday travel!


----------



## Williams2

xabiaxica said:


> Not that it's set in stone that the rule will be relaxed on 27/4, it is currently permitted to take a child shopping with you if they are too young to be left alone & you have no-one to care for them.


Only seeing what I saw and making no comments as to the circumstances of why this particular parent
and child was turned away ( as per Your experiences !! )

It goes without saying that any relaxation of lockdown in Spain for children ( TBA ) will most likely come
with conditions attached. Anyway the likely date of 27th April is already in the media.


----------



## Megsmum

TraceyD said:


> Hi, we are stuck in the UK and desperate to get home to Spain. We both have resident cards and have just realised we can fly in to Malaga airport, pick up our car (we own itJ and then drive 50 minutes to our home. I don’t suppose you have heard what the roads are like in terms of being stopped by the Police?


Are you permanently resident, either you live in the lodge or you don’t, I’m a bit confused 

How come you are stuck in the U.K. getting home is not an issue for me, it’s more about supporting my daughter here in the U.K.

I haven’t heard anything about being stopped by police but I don’t live in Andalusia. Personally I am simply going to wait for restrictions to lift more here and in spain, not over struck on flying in a tube full of recycled air, I am safer here than travelling through airports etc


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Williams2 said:


> Only seeing what I saw and making no comments as to the circumstances of why this particular parent
> and child was turned away ( as per Your experiences !! )
> 
> It goes without saying that any relaxation of lockdown in Spain for children ( TBA ) will most likely come
> with conditions attached. Anyway the likely date of 27th April is already in the media.


It's not just likely, the president has already said that there will be restrictions to be announced at a later date


----------



## Exeter

TraceyD said:


> Hi, we are stuck in the UK and desperate to get home to Spain. We both have resident cards and have just realised we can fly in to Malaga airport, pick up our car (we own itJ and then drive 50 minutes to our home. I don’t suppose you have heard what the roads are like in terms of being stopped by the Police?


What Airline is flying from the U.K to Malaga at the present time? As far as I'm aware its only BA to Madrid and Barcelona


----------



## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't suppose you have anything with you that would prove that the house you are going to is your permanent residence...? You are allowed to travel back to your house if it's your place of residence, but not if it's a holiday home. Here, at weekends they put up police controls on the roads and stop practically all the cars if not all (there is little traffic on the roads) . If you're going to work for example you have to have a letter with you to say that your are authorized to do so.
> If you do fly back, it might be better during the week as I don't think there are so many controls


Surely if the "OP" has residence cards, that means green certificates with the address on them? That would be enough to let them drive there from the airport as long as they were able to prove their arrival at the airport (keep the boarding cards), and drive directly to the address on the green cards. No need for deeds or rental agreements.

As far as the car is concerned I would sit the non-driver in the back seat diagonally opposite the driver as per recommendations.

I am assuming that the car is a Spanish registered car and that the driver will have a Spanish driving licence, otherwise I'd say it's asking for trouble.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> Surely if the "OP" has residence cards, that means green certificates with the address on them? That would be enough to let them drive there from the airport as long as they were able to prove their arrival at the airport (keep the boarding cards), and drive directly to the address on the green cards. No need for deeds or rental agreements.
> 
> As far as the car is concerned I would sit the non-driver in the back seat diagonally opposite the driver as per recommendations.
> 
> I am assuming that the car is a Spanish registered car and that the driver will have a Spanish driving licence, otherwise I'd say it's asking for trouble.


I didn't say deeds or rental agreements, I said anything to "prove that the house you are going to is your permanent residence". When people say residency cards I'm not really sure what they have and if they really know what they have, so I was just being cautious


----------



## Williams2

Good morning Covid-19 !!


----------



## Simon22

Williams2 said:


> Good morning Covid-19 !!


Does this mean you have it?


----------



## Williams2

Simon22 said:


> Does this mean you have it?


No but it's like a war !!

Do you remember the film - Good Morning Vietnam ?


----------



## Williams2

Williams2 said:


> No but it's like a war !!
> 
> Do you remember the film - Good Morning Vietnam ?


Just the thing to get us out of bed in the morning during the lockdown - Robin Williams yelling 
_*Good Morning Vietnam !! - plus all the adlib ditties in his radio broadcast.*_

Robin Williams - Good Morning, Vietnam !! video


----------



## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> I didn't say deeds or rental agreements, I said anything to "prove that the house you are going to is your permanent residence". When people say residency cards I'm not really sure what they have and if they really know what they have, so I was just being cautious


Yes, sorry, I quoted you, but it was the "OP" who mentioned having an agreement on ground rent or similar.


----------



## Alcalaina

Our ayuntamiento have just acquired 12,000 face masks and will be distributing them to everyone on the padrón, house to house, two per person.

I think it's pretty likely that after this next extension they will start relaxing the lockdown rules, perhaps people will be allowed to go for walks etc in family groups provided they are wearing masks.

I see that some restaurants on the coast are already modifying their dining areas to put perspex screens between the tables.


----------



## mrypg9

It's certain that the threat of the virus won't go away on May 11th so whatever 'new' activity we'll be permitted will require protection. I guess for me it will be face mask going to my usual Saturday night restaurant and hopefully Perspex screen once seated. After having for over six years survived my heart stopping every now and then and several fractures and other injuries as a result of the ensuing falls I don't want to die at the hands of an alien virus.

I have read several reports from reputable sources that a 'second wave' of the virus is predicted for around October (?) and that there will be a further outbreak to coincide with the 'normal' 'flu season next winter. 

However the restrictions are lifted surely it has to be done gradually. I also read that in Austria restaurants and cafes are already or about to open and that in Germany cafes, book stores and small clothing shops are open. Seems a bit soon to me but I'm not a expert.

Btw if any of you are on my e-mail contacts list I've had reports of spoof e-mails being sent from my address. So beware. ne of the recipients advised me to stay off dodgy porn sites. As I have never in my life accessed a porn site dodgy or respectable I've no idea what that comment implied......


----------



## Love Karma

mrypg9 said:


> It's certain that the threat of the virus won't go away on May 11th so whatever 'new' activity we'll be permitted will require protection. I guess for me it will be face mask going to my usual Saturday night restaurant and hopefully Perspex screen once seated. After having for over six years survived my heart stopping every now and then and several fractures and other injuries as a result of the ensuing falls I don't want to die at the hands of an alien virus.
> 
> I have read several reports f*rom reputable sources* that a 'second wave' of the virus is predicted for around October (?) and that there will be a further outbreak to coincide with the 'normal' 'flu season next winter.


Is there such a thing these days? Seems to me especially after watching the so called expert scientists they trot out at the U.K Gov daily briefings that they are making it up as they go along and to suit the Gov's narrative. This is worth watching

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=k5OAjnveyJo&feature=emb_logo


----------



## Alcalaina

Love Karma said:


> Is there such a thing these days? Seems to me especially after watching the so called expert scientists they trot out at the U.K Gov daily briefings that they are making it up as they go along and to suit the Gov's narrative. This is worth watching
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=k5OAjnveyJo&feature=emb_logo


Yes, I'd be suspicious of anyone trotted out by the British government, even more so by the US one. But I do respect people like Fernando Símón, the epidemiologist working with the Spanish government.

There are still so many unknowns about this virus that on lots of issues, like the second wave, the experts can only speculate based on evidence they already have. The reputable ones will admit that and not try and bullsh1t people.


----------



## Isobella

Alcalaina said:


> Our ayuntamiento have just acquired 12,000 face masks and will be distributing them to everyone on the padrón, house to house, two per person.
> 
> I think it's pretty likely that after this next extension they will start relaxing the lockdown rules, perhaps people will be allowed to go for walks etc in family groups provided they are wearing masks.
> 
> I see that some restaurants on the coast are already modifying their dining areas to put perspex screens between the tables.


Hope they are better than these masks. Spain,s government sent 350,000 fault masks. Causes 1100 health workers to go into isolation.



https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-...ty-masks-across-the-nation-how-did-it-happen/


----------



## Alcalaina

Isobella said:


> Hope they are better than these masks. Spain,s government sent 350,000 fault masks. Causes 1100 health workers to go into isolation.
> 
> https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-...ty-masks-across-the-nation-how-did-it-happen/


Ours were made in a factory in Cadiz I think. They aren't the respirator masks (N95) that stop health workers etc becoming infected, but the disposable surgical masks that stop infected people spreading the disease. Some people still don't seem to be aware of the difference.

https://www.businessinsider.com/typ...coronavirus-outbreak-n95-surgical-2020-3?IR=T


----------



## kaipa

At least the price has been fixed at 95 cents for a basic mask


----------



## Glynb

How on earth are you supposed to eat a restaurant meal whilst wearing a face mask? Beggars belief


----------



## Alcalaina

Glynb said:


> How on earth are you supposed to eat a restaurant meal whilst wearing a face mask? Beggars belief


I don't think anyone will expect you to!  The govt said a week or so ago that as soon as there were enough masks for everybody, we would be allowed to go for recreational walks. Fingers crossed that will be after May 9th. But I doubt whether any bars or restaurants will open till much later in the year, and they'll have to make sure their tables are 2 metres apart or separated with screens.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Glynb said:


> How on earth are you supposed to eat a restaurant meal whilst wearing a face mask? Beggars belief


 Where did that come from?
Perhaps you will be expected to wear a mask on your journey to and from the restaurant.
Nothing has been said as far as I know about restaurants and cafés, but the TV news is full of footage of restaurants putting up screens in the most bizzare way. Tables for 4 people with screens dividing the table into 4 sections. How are they going to share a bottle of wine? How are they going to talk come to that? Either by shouting raising the volume of an already noisy atmosphere or by standing and talking over the screens (they only go about a metre up)...
Can't see the pleasure in it myself. They seem to be jumping the gun and spending a lot of money for something that hasn't been legislated yet


----------



## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> Where did that come from?
> Perhaps you will be expected to wear a mask on your journey to and from the restaurant.
> Nothing has been said as far as I know about restaurants and cafés, but the TV news is full of footage of restaurants putting up screens in the most bizzare way. Tables for 4 people with screens dividing the table into 4 sections. *How are they going to share a bottle of wine? *How are they going to talk come to that? Either by shouting raising the volume of an already noisy atmosphere or by standing and talking over the screens (they only go about a metre up)...
> Can't see the pleasure in it myself. They seem to be jumping the gun and spending a lot of money for something that hasn't been legislated yet


Long flexible straws?


----------



## Glynb

Pesky Wesky said:


> Where did that come from?
> Perhaps you will be expected to wear a mask on your journey to and from the restaurant.
> Nothing has been said as far as I know about restaurants and cafés, but the TV news is full of footage of restaurants putting up screens in the most bizzare way. Tables for 4 people with screens dividing the table into 4 sections. How are they going to share a bottle of wine? How are they going to talk come to that? Either by shouting raising the volume of an already noisy atmosphere or by standing and talking over the screens (they only go about a metre up)...
> Can't see the pleasure in it myself. They seem to be jumping the gun and spending a lot of money for something that hasn't been legislated yet


Can't see the pleasure in going for a meal and being divided from other members of your own family by perspex screens! That's almost as bonkers as my eating a meal wearing a facemask jest! Separating the tables from each other by screens seems a resonable suggestion. Or outdoor areas with no screens but keeping the tables far enough apart?

Can't wait to get back to our favourite Chinese and Indian restaurants, will never take eating out for granted again.


----------



## Williams2

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, I'd be suspicious of anyone trotted out by the British government, even more so by the US one. But I do respect people like Fernando Símón, the epidemiologist working with the Spanish government.
> 
> *There are still so many unknowns about this virus that on lots of issues, like the second wave*, the experts can only speculate based on evidence they already have. The reputable ones will admit that and not try and bullsh1t people.


I assume the respective governments would have rolled out an App by then, called something
like 'Sound an Alarm' for your Mobile which will ping you on your Smartphone - to go indoors
ready to 'Surf the Internet' when the second wave comes along.

Maybe this is what the UK have in mind when they talk about the availability of warning Apps
( they do love the notion of new App idea's during their Daily Briefings ) that can be downloaded 
in the near future ?


----------



## Alcalaina

Williams2 said:


> I assume the respective governments would have rolled out an App by then, called something
> like 'Sound an Alarm' for your Mobile which will ping you on your Smartphone - to go indoors
> ready to 'Surf the Internet' when the second wave comes along.
> 
> Maybe this is what the UK have in mind when they talk about the availability of warning Apps
> ( they do love the notion of new App idea's during their Daily Briefings ) that can be downloaded
> in the near future ?





> The UK app will keep a record of which phones have been in close contact using Bluetooth. Users will apparently be able to notify the app if they start developing symptoms, at which point it will send out a "yellow" alert to anyone who's been in their vicinity. If the user subsequently gets an official diagnosis, they will be given a verification code to enter into the the app, which will then issue a red alert.
> 
> Matt Hancock said that the app would anonymously alert other users, and that *it would be opt-in*. "All data will be handled according to the highest ethical and security standards, and would only be used for NHS care and research," Hancock said.


I fear it relies a bit too heavily on human altruism, the desire to co-operate for the good of the community as a whole. If only half the population downloads it and only half of suspected carriers enter the data, it's pretty useless.


----------



## Williams2

The children are out already ( many accompanied by their parents ) in Oviedo today, some on scooters,
scooting around the courtyard.


----------



## Overandout

Yes, my wife went out this morning with our elder son. She said that there were kids everywhere!

I'll be going out later with the little one but my idea is to avoid the crowds by going during the siesta hours!

During the week when both of us are working, we can only go out after work in the evenings so we'll probably take turns to go with both of them at once.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Williams2 said:


> The children are out already ( many accompanied by their parents ) in Oviedo today, some on scooters,
> scooting around the courtyard.


 Yes, I thought it was tomorrow, but today's the day!! Have already received several pics of children tasting freedom!! Especially as it's a nice sunny morning

Hope we will be allowed the privilege soon


----------



## Nomoss

Williams2 said:


> I assume the respective governments would have rolled out an App by then, called something
> like 'Sound an Alarm' for your Mobile which will ping you on your Smartphone - to go indoors
> ready to 'Surf the Internet' when the second wave comes along.
> 
> *Maybe this is what the UK have in mind when they talk about the availability of warning Apps
> ( they do love the notion of new App idea's during their Daily Briefings ) that can be downloaded
> in the near future ?*


That's called "clutching at straws"

I watched a few of the UK daily briefings, but have stopped doing so.

The ministers unfortunate enough to be next in line to be paraded there are so badly informed and incompetent that it is embarrassing.


----------



## kaipa

As a far and teacher of kids I can tell you that nearly all of my teenage students plus son have no desire to go out with their parents. Most are actually quite happy with no school and playing on their phones all day. Of course, as usual adults have commandeered the narrative and seem to know exactly how kids feel and think!!.


----------



## xabiaxica

Have to say that I've enjoyed hearing happy childrens' voices passing by today  

And maybe we won't have to throw the ball back up to the terrace above several times a day from now on...


----------



## Tigerlillie

kaipa said:


> As a far and teacher of kids I can tell you that nearly all of my *teenage students* plus son have no desire to go out with their parents. Most are actually quite happy with no school and playing on their phones all day. Of course, as usual adults have commandeered the narrative and seem to know exactly how kids feel and think!!.


Not all children are teenagers and for little ones this is very confusing for them as they have absolutely no idea why and what is going on and why they are confined to the house or appartment.


----------



## Megsmum

Nomoss said:


> That's called "clutching at straws"
> 
> I watched a few of the UK daily briefings, but have stopped doing so.
> 
> The ministers unfortunate enough to be next in line to be paraded there are so badly informed and incompetent that it is embarrassing.


The worst being Patel. She could tell me the grass is green and the sky is blue and she would still look like she’s lying. I’m not too Judgemental about the rest, truth will come out in the end and we have to thank some god somewhere that none of us have that Eejit Trump and his highly intellectual brain organising events


----------



## Megsmum

Tigerlillie said:


> Not all children are teenagers and for little ones this is very confusing for them as they have absolutely no idea why and what is going on and why they are confined to the house or appartment.


Again for me this is a parental “thing”. If your kids are used to being stuck indoors playing Nintendo etc then one would question that. I know kids like that and they could probably do with a dose of outside life, on the other hand, those of my students who are very sporting and used to being out and about will be grateful for a walk be it with parents or siblings


----------



## Williams2

xabiaxica said:


> Have to say that I've enjoyed hearing happy childrens' voices passing by today


It's the second day of the kids being allowed to go outside and like others welcome their appearance 
outdoors, on the street and around the supermarkets.

All I've seen have been well behaved and taking precautions as you would expect with gloves and masks.


----------



## Alcalaina

There is already evidence that some of the photos circulating on social media of people supposedly breaking the distancing rules yesterday are fake or distorted. One, supposedly showing crowds of people on the seafront in Cadiz, was analysed and it turned out to be a trick of perspective. Using the lamp-posts (25m apart) as guidelines, they showed that each family group was in fact well over three metres away from the next one.

It's yet another opportunity for those shadowy far-right propagandists to discredit the government - and sadly, hardly anybody questions these images. It's almost as if they want them to be true.


----------



## Isobella

Alcalaina said:


> There is already evidence that some of the photos circulating on social media of people supposedly breaking the distancing rules yesterday are fake or distorted. One, supposedly showing crowds of people on the seafront in Cadiz, was analysed and it turned out to be a trick of perspective. Using the lamp-posts (25m apart) as guidelines, they showed that each family group was in fact well over three metres away from the next one.
> 
> It's yet another opportunity for those shadowy far-right propagandists to discredit the government - and sadly, hardly anybody questions these images. It's almost as if they want them to be true.


Yet the ones in UK are taken at face value! There must be a lot around because Marbella paseo was busier than Battersea park, then there was Calahonda and Malaga on Facebook. Also reports of car loads heading for beach on Twitter. lies damn lies


----------



## Exeter

Isobella said:


> Yet the ones in UK are taken at face value! There must be a lot around because Marbella paseo was busier than Battersea park, then there was Calahonda and Malaga on *Facebook.* Also reports of car loads heading for beach on *Twitter*. lies damn lies


Ah Facebook and Twitter the finest purveyors of the truth


----------



## Isobella

Exeter said:


> Ah Facebook and Twitter the finest purveyors of the truth


Was in Spanish news too and Police reports. Is the news that Spain has been manipulating or faking the figures fake too? Claimed it was done so they could be in the top ten ratings.


https://www.elmundo.es/espana/2020/04/28/5ea75ea5fc6c83112d8b464a.html


----------



## Overandout

Isobella said:


> Was in Spanish news too and Police reports. Is the news that Spain has been manipulating or faking the figures fake too? Claimed it was done so they could be in the top ten ratings.
> 
> 
> https://www.elmundo.es/espana/2020/04/28/5ea75ea5fc6c83112d8b464a.html


Are you really posting a link to El Mundo to try to validate news against Spain's socialist government?

Seriously?


----------



## Love Karma

Isobella said:


> Was in Spanish news too and Police reports. Is the news that Spain has been manipulating or faking the figures fake too? Claimed it was done so they could be in the top ten ratings.
> 
> 
> https://www.elmundo.es/espana/2020/04/28/5ea75ea5fc6c83112d8b464a.html


This is not a competition. You are truly very very sad


----------



## Isobella

Seriously can you explain or do you just want censorship. Everyone is blaming each other for the “incorrect” figures. Is that all you can say no opinion then!

Why is it any negative news about Spain even though it is from Spanish newspapers rattles a few cages. Not even up for discussion.


----------



## Isobella

Love Karma said:


> This is not a competition. You are truly very very sad


So are you if you can’t discuss what is in the news. What about this one. Proves my point that ppe is a problem for all countries.


https://english.elpais.com/spanish_...d-19-infections-among-healthcare-workers.html


----------



## Isobella

German Doctors have been complaining about lack of ppe too...is that better


----------



## mrypg9

Fact is, nearly all Governments have been tried and found wanting by this crisis. I have to say I'm amazed at the way the Czech Government has handled it A population of 11000000 and fewer than 300 deaths. Compare with wealthy Belgium.
Although there are still some restrictions,total lockdown is now over . Citizens will be allowed to leave the country although I'm not sure under what conditions. Lockdown started there right at the very beginning of concern over a pandemic, wearing of face masks was compulsory for anyone out in public.
I've often thought how lucky I am to have been living in Spain and not Prague when I was diagnosed with heart problems. What I saw and heard of the health system there didn't inspire confidence, although I personally didn't need to use it. Efficiency of public services in general didn't impress and the quality of Czech politicians I met was imo poor.
But maybe I was expecting too much from a country that only fifteen years before had exited from fifty years of disastrous socialist rule.
Well, congratulations Chechia or whatever we should call you now!! I'm looking forward to being able to travel for one last visit to see old friends -some I've known for fifty years - and much-loved places before I'm past moving very far from my armchair.


----------



## mrypg9

By the way, I think you are lucky to be able to see and hear people and their voices as well as cars and other traffic.
As I said in another post I now live at the end of a short lane, a cul-de-sac, no other dwelling on the lane, just us, the three of us in two houses on one big parcela. Last night I had a second delivery from Carrefour, different driver so I think that makes a grand total of six people I've encountered in eight weeks. No people or cars pass us in normal times.
It's usually quiet, now more so. I walk my dog to the top of the lane, past the fields then back again. I've seen only one person on these walks, a farmer herding a flock of sheep into the field one day. There are horses in a field at the bottom of the garden, goats in the field opposite and a large white horse appeared last week in next door's garden. Nice to look at but not much chance of conversation there.
I get several calls each day from friends nearby, in the U.K. and elsewhere and I enjoy getting stuck in to uninterrupted reading so I'm not tearing my hair out with boredom. I do miss going to our kennels but I get daily updates and all is well there.

So think yourselves lucky that you are aware that there is a world outside, even if some of its inhabitants aren't behaving as they should.


----------



## Isobella

mrypg9 said:


> Fact is, nearly all Governments have been tried and found wanting by this crisis. I have to say I'm amazed at the way the Czech Government has handled it A population of 11000000 and fewer than 300 deaths. Compare with wealthy Belgium.
> Although there are still some restrictions,total lockdown is now over . Citizens will be allowed to leave the country although I'm not sure under what conditions. Lockdown started there right at the very beginning of concern over a pandemic, wearing of face masks was compulsory for anyone out in public.
> I've often thought how lucky I am to have been living in Spain and not Prague when I was diagnosed with heart problems. What I saw and heard of the health system there didn't inspire confidence, although I personally didn't need to use it. Efficiency of public services in general didn't impress and the quality of Czech politicians I met was imo poor.
> But maybe I was expecting too much from a country that only fifteen years before had exited from fifty years of disastrous socialist rule.
> Well, congratulations Chechia or whatever we should call you now!! I'm looking forward to being able to travel for one last visit to see old friends -some I've known for fifty years - and much-loved places before I'm past moving very far from my armchair.


Can you remember is the years before the soviet block collapsed there were always media stories about the wonderful hospitals and care services in those countries. After the collapse there were horrific pictures and stories of orphanages, mental institutions etc. I liked Prague to wander around Stories of those hen and stag parties put me off returning.


----------



## mrypg9

Isobella said:


> Can you remember is the years before the soviet block collapsed there were always media stories about the wonderful hospitals and care services in those countries. After the collapse there were horrific pictures and stories of orphanages, mental institutions etc. I liked Prague to wander around Stories of those hen and stag parties put me off returning.


I first went to Prague as a young student, 1969 I think it was. I went to stay with a Czech girl and her family, I met Pavla in 1968 at a demo against the Soviet invasion. She was in London working as an au pair to a wealthy Czech Jewish family who lived in a posh flat in Park Lane. She could have stayed in the UK but chose to go home. I went back many times over the years before living there. Pavla and I are still friends, she visited me here last autumn.
When I was a 'comrade' - card-carrying member of the Communist Party of Great Britain - I was able to spend time in the Socialist People's Republic of Poland Plus two visits to the USSR. Those experiences were formative in making me see the falsity of ideology of all kinds whether of the left or of the right.
But....from an aesthetic point of view and contrasting experiences I honestly have to say I preferred those places especially Prague and Krakow as they were before 1989. No MacDonalds, M&S, shopping malls, neon, whores and spivs openly plying their trades, more foreigners than Czechs in central Prague, streets impassable because of tourist groups and of course drunken idiotic stag and hen groups.
But then I couldn't really expect people to live in some kind of for me nostalgic aspic, drabness and quaintness preserved to suit me. Truth is, life was hard, harsh, mean and oppressive under 'actually existing socialism'.

How off-topic can you get...


----------



## kaipa

So lots of things to consider with the new announcement. Sounds quite razonable given the pressure the government are under. No fixed dates is good idea.Even cinemas can open but everything at about 30 % capacity. Best thing is no movement between provinces which will piss off many madrileños but its the best way to avoid the Costas becoming packed in the summer months


----------



## kaipa

Also the good news is that they hope that the desecalada will be achieved in 6 to 8 weeks which means the beginning of the summer. Fingers crossed it works but it at least given everyone something to be happy ,especially as the weekend looks like the start of [email protected]!


----------



## Overandout

kaipa said:


> Best thing is no movement between provinces which will piss off many madrileños but its the best way to avoid the Costas becoming packed in the summer months


I've read it all, and all I can see is that for at least 6 weeks there will be no movement between provinces and islands.

By my calculations that takes us to 14th June. 

So the process can be delayed for a further 6 weeks and still allow the walking dead from Madrid to arrive en masse and spend our filthy infected money in the chiringuitos in August.


----------



## kaipa

A number of madrileños normally arrive for the summer this weekend. I think its a good idea to prevent province movement for 2 months until we know what might happen with infections. Maybe it's fine for Madrileños to think its okay to move to their second homes but they arent on the padron where I live so what do we do if infections increase? Our town can increase by ten fold in summer but our hospitals cant!


----------



## Overandout

Oh, OK. I've never heard of "for the summer" meaning as early as May.

For us in Madrid, "el verano" referring to the period spent out of Madrid, means at the most the traditional period of reduced working hours which was originally 15th June to 15th September, but now usually means either July and August, or even just August.


----------



## 95995

kaipa said:


> A number of madrileños normally arrive for the summer this weekend. I think its a good idea to prevent province movement for 2 months until we know what might happen with infections. Maybe it's fine for Madrileños to think its okay to move to their second homes but they arent on the padron where I live so what do we do if infections increase? Our town can increase by ten fold in summer but our hospitals cant!


But according to your profile you're in Scotland!


----------



## kaipa

It would be weird if Madrileños spent the summer in SCOTLAND!!!


----------



## kaipa

But according to your profile you're in Scotland!







[/QUOTE]

Come on Sherlock you 'll need to sharpen up


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> So lots of things to consider with the new announcement. Sounds quite razonable given the pressure the government are under. No fixed dates is good idea.Even cinemas can open but everything at about 30 % capacity. Best thing is no movement between provinces which will piss off many madrileños but its the best way to avoid the Costas becoming packed in the summer months


It's true that Madrid is the most densely area in Spain, and it's true that many Madrileños go to the coast for their holidays, but so do those from Toledo, Albacete, Jaen, Leon and Burgos. I think this idea of the Madridleños fleeing from the city in the month of August is still true today, but nowdays the holidays are much more spread out and it's not just the rich kids from Madrid who can afford to have a couple of weeks at the beach, but all parts of Spain. I know people from Bilbao who go to Cádiz every year, now that's a journey! It's not just you that perpetuates this myth. The Madridleños are used a the scapegoat for all sorts of problems on the coast!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> But according to your profile you're in Scotland!


Come on Sherlock you 'll need to sharpen up[/QUOTE]
Or you need to fess up! If your profile says Scotland how are we supposed to know you're in Spain and when you say "here" you're talking about Spain?


----------



## 95995

kaipa said:


> But according to your profile you're in Scotland!





> Come on Sherlock you 'll need to sharpen up


Speak for yourself


----------



## kaipa

Why on earth would I post things about Spain if I lived in Scotland. How could I be on ERTE if I lived in Scotland?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> Why on earth would I post things about Spain if I lived in Scotland. How could I be on ERTE if I lived in Scotland?


Quite reasonably, nobody reads all your posts and knows all your history. It can be quite confusing if your country info isn't right. As for why would you.... fig, a lot of people do some very strange things, and quite a few of them seem to come on this forum


----------



## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> It's true that Madrid is the most densely area in Spain, and it's true that many Madrileños go to the coast for their holidays, but so do those from Toledo, Albacete, Jaen, Leon and Burgos. I think this idea of the Madridleños fleeing from the city in the month of August is still true today, but nowdays the holidays are much more spread out and it's not just the rich kids from Madrid who can afford to have a couple of weeks at the beach, but all parts of Spain. I know people from Bilbao who go to Cádiz every year, now that's a journey! It's not just you that perpetuates this myth. The Madridleños are used a the scapegoat for all sorts of problems on the coast!


There is nothing untrue in what you say there. But it has to be acknowledged that "Madrid" is a sort of demonised term when used by other parts of Spain. Some more than others of course.
Politically Madrid is the seat of the central government so many times when people want to say that something is under the control of the national government they say "controlled by Madrid", or "decision to be made by Madrid". Can you imagine the Mayor of Bristol saying that a decision was dependent of "London"?
The Catalonia situation has heightened this use in recent times. "Madrid" for people like MickBCN is not a geographical term, but a political one, representing (what they think) as oppression.
Before it was the Basque struggle that used it in a similar same way.
My first time in Bilbao was way back when things were still fresh in people's minds and tensions ran high. We went from Madrid in what is now my classic car, but then it was our only car and with a regional registration plate with the M on it. When we got to our friends apartment they said they would move their car onto the street so that we could put ours in their garage. I said that it was not necessary, we would park on the street, and the reply was no you really don't want to leave a car with a Madrid registration in full view, it's not safe.

I think that this demonised and representative view of "Madrid" is being exploited by the press and by politicians in more rural / coastal areas with Covid. What they are actually afraid of is agglomerations, the fact that the agglomerations may be made up of British, Germans, Swedes, Basques, Toledanos and Madrileños is irrelevant. Madrid is a convenient and pre-established collective term.

I predict incidents when we can finally travel nationally where people from Madrid, or other national tourists are pressured or accosted when on holiday in the tourist destinations. Hopefully it won't be the norm, but this demonisation will surely have an effect. If I were the type to have regional flags, stickers or artifacts in my car, I'd be removing them this summer!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Yuuppeeee!!
First walk after 49 days of confinement!!!
Out of the house at 7:20, back at 8:40, yes I overstepped the limit...
But, lovely, lovely, lovely. Coming back there were quite a few people, as to be expected, that's why I went early. Tomorrow will be the same, but during the week it should be ok, but of course I work in the mornings, so I'll probably still get up early as I expect the track I go on, and the only place I can walk to within limits (beside the town itself) will be busy in the evening at 8:00pm and then it gets dark.
People running and on bikes in the main didn't wear masks, people walking generally did.

See photos on the photo thread!


----------



## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yuuppeeee!!
> First walk after 49 days of confinement!!!
> Out of the house at 7:20, back at 8:40, yes I overstepped the limit...
> But, lovely, lovely, lovely. Coming back there were quite a few people, as to be expected, that's why I went early. Tomorrow will be the same, but during the week it should be ok, but of course I work in the mornings, so I'll probably still get up early as I expect the track I go on, and the only place I can walk to within limits (beside the town itself) will be busy in the evening at 8:00pm and then it gets dark.
> People running and on bikes in the main didn't wear masks, people walking generally did.
> 
> See photos on the photo thread!


OH was out early but I'm saving my walk for tonight. I want to see the sunset!

According to our policia local there is no time limit on your walk, within the permitted hours. Only if you are walking with chlldren does it have to be restricted to an hour.


----------



## Megsmum

Husband was told last nights bars in village opening May 11th


----------



## 95995

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yuuppeeee!!
> First walk after 49 days of confinement!!!
> Out of the house at 7:20, back at 8:40, yes I overstepped the limit...
> But, lovely, lovely, lovely. Coming back there were quite a few people, as to be expected, that's why I went early. Tomorrow will be the same, but during the week it should be ok, but of course I work in the mornings, so I'll probably still get up early as I expect the track I go on, and the only place I can walk to within limits (beside the town itself) will be busy in the evening at 8:00pm and then it gets dark.
> People running and on bikes in the main didn't wear masks, people walking generally did.
> 
> See photos on the photo thread!


You make me feel ashamed, given in France we can go out for exercise for an hour a day within a radius of 1km as long as we carry the completed declaration with the reason and time of departure plus ID and I find that hard. I can't even begin to imagine how hard it must have been for all those people in Spain who do not even have a balcony.

Good luck to you all - meanwhile I am looking forward to 11 May when our restrictions here will be eased.


----------



## Alcalaina

Megsmum said:


> Husband was told last nights bars in village opening May 11th


Yep, that's the big day for provinces that enter Phase 1 on that date. Only up to 30% of their legal capacity and only sitting at tables outside (or at the bar 2 metres apart). But it's the first step on the road to New Normal. 

It's going to be really weird. There are about ten bars in the pueblo that we visit regularly, all of them small family-run busineses, and I´m not sure how many will have made it through. It's been really hard for them.


----------



## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> Yep, that's the big day for provinces that enter Phase 1 on that date. Only up to 30% of their legal capacity and only sitting at tables outside (or at the bar 2 metres apart). But it's the first step on the road to New Normal.
> 
> It's going to be really weird. There are about ten bars in the pueblo that we visit regularly, all of them small family-run busineses, and I´m not sure how many will have made it through. It's been really hard for them.


Of course nothing is set in stone until it happens. If contagion figures increase in any of those provinces currently 'planned' to move to Phase 1 on May 11, to the point that they no longer qualify, then the phase will de delayed. 

I saw a report on the news the other night about bars with no outside areas. Most in the report had just thrown in the towel.


----------



## Overandout

Alcalaina said:


> Yep, that's the big day for provinces that enter Phase 1 on that date. Only up to 30% of their legal capacity and only sitting at tables outside (*or at the bar 2 metres apart*). But it's the first step on the road to New Normal.


Are you sure? I understood that it was terraza only (no inside use at all)?


----------



## Overandout

My wife went out this morning at 9.00. Came back saying that the pavements were overcrowded, ,impossible to keep distance between the people.

I just don't understand why they don't let people walk / run in parks and open spaces... it's almost as if the Madrid town hall wants the town to fail the requirements to move to the next phase...

I'll be going out cycling tonight. Hopefully I will find it more pleasant as I can use the road instead of the pavement.


----------



## Hepa

Here on the Meridian Isle, the incarceration is being eased this weekend, no longer do I have to remain under house arrest, I will tomorrow have served my seven week sentence.

Three cases of the plague were imported here, all from Barcelona and Madrid, nobody died, all three recovered.

Goodness knows how many small businesses will have gone to the wall, the local bars are offering deliveries of takeaway hangovers.

I have spent so much time in the garden, myself and the wild Atlantic Canaries are now on first name terms, and the Blackbird can sing with a West Riding dialect.


----------



## Megsmum

Alcalaina said:


> Yep, that's the big day for provinces that enter Phase 1 on that date. Only up to 30% of their legal capacity and only sitting at tables outside (or at the bar 2 metres apart). But it's the first step on the road to New Normal.
> 
> It's going to be really weird. There are about ten bars in the pueblo that we visit regularly, all of them small family-run busineses, and I´m not sure how many will have made it through. It's been really hard for them.


Thanks for the clarification. We only have three bars open daily (fiesta days they spring up everywhere !) All three have access onto the village square. 

Husband says he won’t be going anywhere anytime soon, he does have the advantage of having a hectare of land and uninterrupted walks! We are both looking forward to our Saturday morning coffee and tostada on a Saturday morning when I return


----------



## kaipa

Unfortunately I feel that the new normal is lulling people into a false sense of security. WHO are worried the race to reduce restrictions means the possibility of a second wave that could be worse than the first. Reading reports about how countries are behaving it sounds like their advice is falling on deaf ears.


----------



## Love Karma

kaipa said:


> Unfortunately I feel that the new normal is lulling people into a false sense of security. WHO are worried the race to reduce restrictions means the possibility of a second wave that could be worse than the first. Reading reports about how countries are behaving it sounds like their advice is falling on deaf ears.


Yes that is definitely a possible or even probable problem and my concern is that if a second wave hits Spain could take even more draconian action and implement an even more severe rules with access only open to urgent cargo at ports and airports. Lets hope that people stick to this current ease in restrictions sensibly and a second wave is avoided.


----------



## Megsmum

Love Karma said:


> Yes that is definitely a possible or even probable problem and my concern is that if a second wave hits Spain could take even more draconian action and implement an even more severe rules with access only open to urgent cargo at ports and airports. Lets hope that people stick to this current ease in restrictions sensibly and a second wave is avoided.


Definitely a possibility, my real concern is how they will (they being all countries starting to come out of lockdown) deal with people entering the country, when you consider the USA and many South American governments are basically in denial. 

If Residents of individual countries deal sensibly with easement there will still be a second wave, just like the original pandemic it’ll be how do hospitals cope with the infection rate. I think we have to accept that until there is an effective vaccine this virus is here to stay, people will continue to die, it’s just about, from a purely non emotional point of view, what the numbers will be and what governments find acceptable.


----------



## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> Definitely a possibility, *my real concern is how they will (they being all countries starting to come out of lockdown) deal with people entering the country, when you consider the USA and many South American governments are basically in denial. *
> 
> If Residents of individual countries deal sensibly with easement there will still be a second wave, just like the original pandemic it’ll be how do hospitals cope with the infection rate. I think we have to accept that until there is an effective vaccine this virus is here to stay, people will continue to die, it’s just about, from a purely non emotional point of view, what the numbers will be and what governments find acceptable.


I'm pretty certain that Spain & other countries will treat those wanting to enter from other countries on a country by country basis. 

I can't imagine they will accept people coming from anywhere until such time as that country fulfills the same conditions as the individual provinces have to.


----------



## Love Karma

Megsmum said:


> Definitely a possibility, my real concern is how they will (they being all countries starting to come out of lockdown) deal with people entering the country, when you consider the USA and many South American governments are basically in denial.
> 
> If Residents of individual countries deal sensibly with easement there will still be a second wave, just like the original pandemic it’ll be how do hospitals cope with the infection rate. I think we have to accept that until there is an effective vaccine this virus is here to stay, people will continue to die, it’s just about, from a purely non emotional point of view, what the numbers will be and what governments find acceptable.


Second wave probable but not a given imo. It will be interesting to see if New Zealand get one or not. Also be interesting to see what happens in Greece who have contained it exceptionally well (140 deaths) but are now accepting Wizz Air flights from London. But as for Spain they could simply ban all commercial flights from hotspots. Be very interesting to see the figures in a week or so's time as to whether the ease has regenerated the virus's spread and infection rate.


----------



## Joppa

The powerful Spanish tourist industry is lobbying hard to get the borders opened, in particular from UK, Ireland, Germany and Scandinavia.


----------



## Love Karma

Joppa said:


> The powerful Spanish tourist industry is lobbying hard to get the borders opened, in particular from UK, Ireland, Germany and Scandinavia.


I fear it will fall on deaf ears. Tourism is mothballed for the foreseeable future. I do hope I'm wrong.


----------



## Alcalaina

Overandout said:


> Are you sure? I understood that it was terraza only (no inside use at all)?


You could be right, I've read so many variations on the same theme. 

We won't know for certain until they publish the precise guidelines in a BOE next week.


----------



## xabiaxica

Joppa said:


> The powerful Spanish tourist industry is lobbying hard to get the borders opened, in particular from UK, Ireland, Germany and Scandinavia.





Love Karma said:


> I fear it will fall on deaf ears. Tourism is mothballed for the foreseeable future. I do hope I'm wrong.


Let them lobby. 

For the sake of the health & lives of those living in Spain, I hope that those from countries with high contagion figures, by which I mean higher than those permitted for residents of Spain to be able to move around the country at such time as that happens, WON'T be allowed into Spain until such time as they meet the same requirements as Spanish provinces. 


And I don't imagine for one moment that the govt. will allow it.


----------



## Williams2

First day of ( limited ) freedom to exercise outdoors today.

Video of that new found freedom to exercise

:lol:


----------



## xabiaxica

Williams2 said:


> First day of ( limited ) freedom to exercise outdoors today.
> 
> Video of that new found freedom to exercise
> 
> :lol:


Am I supposed to see this?


----------



## Williams2

xabiaxica said:


> Am I supposed to see this?
> View attachment 92366


That's one of the joys of Facebook for you.


----------



## Williams2

Williams2 said:


> That's one of the joys of Facebook for you.


Hopefully it might work now.


----------



## Love Karma

I saw a bloke in Red drinking then doing star jumps, same one as was doing the rounds a week or so ago but this time with 2 May embedded into it


----------



## Isobella

Yes I think it is Mallorca that has said it will not allow British this summer because the UK was late to lock down. SKY interviewed the Alcalde of Benidorm who was looking forward to seeing the Brits back but said that hotels would not serve food and swimming pools would be closed. Not most peoples idea of a holiday.


----------



## Williams2

Isobella said:


> Yes I think it is Mallorca that has said it will not allow British this summer because the UK was late to lock down. SKY interviewed the Alcalde of Benidorm who was looking forward to seeing the Brits back but said that hotels would not serve food and swimming pools would be closed. Not most peoples idea of a holiday.


Yes it does beg the question of where would they go and what will they do in such places if ( maybe ) limited
numbers were allowed to travel.
For many of the returnee tourists, it will not be such a great holiday until such time as all the restrictions
are lifted which could well be into next year if not beyond.


----------



## Overandout

I've just been out with the kids for their hour of freedom, and I am honestly truly amazed at the mass stupidity I have seen.

Not just a few people not wearing masks. Probably actually less than half.

Old people walking around. Families (both parents openly walking hand in hand), cyclists....

I think in one hour I saw almost every rule and recommendation being broken. And not one policeman or vehicle.

We are truly ***ked if the new normal depends on people respecting the prescribed way to get there.

2nd wave in October or in June?


----------



## Megsmum

Williams2 said:


> That's one of the joys of Facebook for you.


There is no joy from Facebook


----------



## Isobella

The Mail has a lot of photos, mainly Madrid and Barcelona.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...y-hospital-symbol-pandemic-battle-closes.html


----------



## Simon22

EverHopeful said:


> You make me feel ashamed, given in France we can go out for exercise for an hour a day within a radius of 1km as long as we carry the completed declaration with the reason and time of departure plus ID and I find that hard. I can't even begin to imagine how hard it must have been for all those people in Spain who do not even have a balcony.
> 
> Good luck to you all - meanwhile I am looking forward to 11 May when our restrictions here will be eased.


Yes, the outside areas have been a lifesaver, wine o'clock has been getting earlier and earlier!


----------



## Simon22

Overandout said:


> Are you sure? I understood that it was terraza only (no inside use at all)?


Yes, I thought that was the next phase, if all goes well.


----------



## Simon22

Megsmum said:


> There is no joy from Facebook


Ironically I clicked a like button for this comment!


----------



## 95995

Love Karma said:


> Yes that is definitely a possible or even probable problem and my concern is that if a second wave hits Spain could take even more draconian action and implement an even more severe rules with access only open to urgent cargo at ports and airports. Lets hope that people stick to this current ease in restrictions sensibly and a second wave is avoided.


It is the economic impact that is pushing Italy, Spain and France into easing restrictions, with perhaps a bit too much emphasis on their economies, though it a horrific decision to have to make.

Also, if this goes haywire, it will actually be the continuation of the first wave, not the second wave which is unlikely to arrive until autumn/winter.


----------



## Alcalaina

Can anyone confirm whether, in Phase 1, we will be able to drive to other towns in the same province? At the moment the GC are telling us we must stay in the pueblo to do our shopping, but we could really do with a trip to Mercadona ...


----------



## baldilocks

Alcalaina said:


> Can anyone confirm whether, in Phase 1, we will be able to drive to other towns in the same province? At the moment the GC are telling us we must stay in the pueblo to do our shopping, but we could really do with a trip to Mercadona ...


I have a Cardio appointment in Alcalá la Real on Thursday so we will merge that with a trip to Mercadona and to Lidl.


----------



## Megsmum

baldilocks said:


> I have a Cardio appointment in Alcalá la Real on Thursday so we will merge that with a trip to Mercadona and to Lidl.


Good luck xx


----------



## Alcalaina

baldilocks said:


> I have a Cardio appointment in Alcalá la Real on Thursday so we will merge that with a trip to Mercadona and to Lidl.


Good luck, hope it’s all good. But it doesn’t answer my question!


----------



## 95995

They opened the beach at Santander today, with hours depending on whether you were there for exercise, aged, or children. From what I saw in France people were definitely following the social distancing rules, though of course they were all locals.


----------



## Overandout

Alcalaina said:


> Can anyone confirm whether, in Phase 1, we will be able to drive to other towns in the same province? At the moment the GC are telling us we must stay in the pueblo to do our shopping, but we could really do with a trip to Mercadona ...


Technically I think no, in Phase 1 this is not foreseen. It would be phase 4 until "non-essential" trips can be made.

That said, what is essential? If a Muslim family live in a town with a supermarket but no halal butcher, would they be allowed to drive to the nearest city?


----------



## Lynn R

Alcalaina said:


> Can anyone confirm whether, in Phase 1, we will be able to drive to other towns in the same province? At the moment the GC are telling us we must stay in the pueblo to do our shopping, but we could really do with a trip to Mercadona ...


According to this article (El Pais in English), essential purchases will have to be made within your own municipality, but in smaller locations where items may not be available, travel further afield will be permitted. At least that means I will be able to visit my hairdresser (which is in the next town but still within the same municipality) once they reopen. They have chosen this time to relocate (which has caused a lot of problems according to their Facebook page, I'm not surprised) and won't be be open until the 11th at the earliest.

https://english.elpais.com/society/...nder-phase-1-of-spains-deescalation-plan.html


----------



## kaipa

I see they have revised the rule on outside bar capacity from 30 % to 50% and phase 1 will allow meeting family and friends ( up to a limit) in homes, bars and restaurants. The rules on hygiene in shops and bars though is so extreme that I cant see many places complying. Cleaning all changing rooms after each customer, cleaning toilets after each use etc. If they are doing this then I imagine service will be slow and many people will probably decide its not worth it.


----------



## Alcalaina

Lynn R said:


> According to this article (El Pais in English), essential purchases will have to be made within your own municipality, but in smaller locations where items may not be available, travel further afield will be permitted.
> 
> https://english.elpais.com/society/...nder-phase-1-of-spains-deescalation-plan.html


This is what it actually says:



> Purchases (*not* including food and other essential items) will have to be made within each person’s municipality, although in smaller areas where a certain item is not available, trips to nearby areas will be permitted.


I have been buying fresh food in local shops (as always) but for essential items where you need a car - beer, wine, cat litter etc - the OH drives to a supermarket. It's really hard to park near our branch of Dia, which is on a residential street, so a trip to Mercadona in the next town, which has a proper carpark, would be very nice.


----------



## kaipa

As the government has said there are 4 phases and they hope them to be completed in 6 to 8 weeks does this mean The State of Alarm will now definitely last until all 4 phases are complete or can the phases exists with out the SOA?. I ask because what is the point of asking every 2 weeks for a vote to prolong?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> I see they have revised the rule on outside bar capacity from 30 % to 50% and phase 1 will allow meeting family and friends ( up to a limit) in homes, bars and restaurants. The rules on hygiene in shops and bars though is so extreme that I cant see many places complying. Cleaning all changing rooms after each customer, cleaning toilets after each use etc. If they are doing this then I imagine service will be slow and many people will probably decide its not worth it.


 On the news it was talking about steam pressing every article after having been tried on. The regulations are indeed extreme, as you say not many will be able to comply and not many shops will therefore be open. 

And perhaps this is what the government really want. 

This could be read as...
The government is being pushed into opening up businesses and therefore the economy, from other political parties, business owners and consumers. The government puts in place these regulations in the small print, but the headlines read "Businesses to open" "Bars and restaurants will be operating soon" whereas in reality, if they want to abide by the rules, the majority will not be able to.
Question is, how efficient will the inspecting and fining be?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> Can anyone confirm whether, in Phase 1, we will be able to drive to other towns in the same province? At the moment the GC are telling us we must stay in the pueblo to do our shopping, but we could really do with a trip to Mercadona ...


 From El País May 1st


> *Can I move freely within my province during Phase 1?*
> 
> There is nothing in the wording of the plan to prevent it. Yet the government has prohibited travel to second homes until Phase 2, even if the home is located within the same province as one’s primary residence. Confusion regarding this point has yet to be cleared up.


And other questions here
https://english.elpais.com/society/...pect-to-visit-family-and-friends.html?rel=lom


----------



## kaipa

I still dont understand how the State of Alarm works. When it is lifted is that the end of all restrictions? I assumed it would end on the 11th May but that certain restrictions will continue . But if it doesn't then doesnt that mean that the Government will be forced to pay ERTEs possibly for months? Surely paying the salaries of ( 1 million) unemployed( 100% salary) will cripple the country?


----------



## Alcalaina

kaipa said:


> I still dont understand how the State of Alarm works. When it is lifted is that the end of all restrictions? I assumed it would end on the 11th May but that certain restrictions will continue . But if it doesn't then doesnt that mean that the Government will be forced to pay ERTEs possibly for months? Surely paying the salaries of ( 1 million) unemployed( 100% salary) will cripple the country?


The State of Alarm lasts for two weeks then needs parliamentary approval to be renewed for a further two weeks. It simply gives the government special powers to mobilise resources - civilian and military, public and private sector - in order to protect the population. 

All of the different measures to do with the lockdown are enforced by the government under the terms of the Estado de Alarma. 

I don't know whether the ERTEs etc are covered by different legislation so they can continue after the Estado de Alarma is over. But the basic minimum income for families in need is a permanent thing.


----------



## kaipa

Alcalaina said:


> kaipa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I still dont understand how the State of Alarm works. When it is lifted is that the end of all restrictions? I assumed it would end on the 11th May but that certain restrictions will continue . But if it doesn't then doesnt that mean that the Government will be forced to pay ERTEs possibly for months? Surely paying the salaries of ( 1 million) unemployed( 100% salary) will cripple the country?
> 
> 
> 
> The State of Alarm lasts for two weeks then needs parliamentary approval to be renewed for a further two weeks. It simply gives the government special powers to mobilise resources - civilian and military, public and private sector - in order to protect the population.
> 
> All of the different measures to do with the lockdown are enforced by the government under the terms of the Estado de Alarma.
> 
> I don't know whether the ERTEs etc are covered by different legislation so they can continue after the Estado de Alarma is over. But the basic minimum income for families in need is a permanent thing.
Click to expand...

But what happens if Sanchez does not get approval on Wednesday,?. Does that mean that all the ideas of shades etc cannot be implemented?


----------



## kaipa

Sorry not shades
I mean phases


----------



## xgarb

Overandout said:


> I've just been out with the kids for their hour of freedom, and I am honestly truly amazed at the mass stupidity I have seen.
> 
> Not just a few people not wearing masks. Probably actually less than half.
> 
> Old people walking around. Families (both parents openly walking hand in hand), cyclists....
> 
> I think in one hour I saw almost every rule and recommendation being broken. And not one policeman or vehicle.
> 
> We are truly ***ked if the new normal depends on people respecting the prescribed way to get there.
> 
> 2nd wave in October or in June?


Same here. A lot of people acting like everything was back to normal.The rules aren't that hard but maybe people don't read more than 'you can leave the house' and just do what they want. 

They don't seem to understand that they are screwing themselves because the next phases rely on the virus being kept under control and if the hospitals start filling up again we will all be stuck inside all summer.


----------



## xabiaxica

Overandout said:


> I've just been out with the kids for their hour of freedom, and I am honestly truly amazed at the mass stupidity I have seen.
> 
> Not just a few people not wearing masks. Probably actually less than half.


Masks aren't compulsory except on public transport.


----------



## Overandout

xabiaxica said:


> Masks aren't compulsory except on public transport.


I know, it was a comment on the level of social responsibility rather than legal compliance.

I went out on my bicycle on Saturday night, and as the cycle paths are mostly closed I had to cycle on the road. So, figuring that I had to do my exercise in a more urban environment I would go into the heart of it.

I cycled to Plaza Mayor, which was reasonably quiet, then onto Sol (the geographical center of Madrid) and that was quite quiet too by normal standards as you would expect.

Then I went to the area of the Opera and Royal Palace. It was packed. The area looks out over the valley of the Manzanares and is a great place to watch the sunset, and it seemed like most of Madrid had the idea to go there!

There were so many people I had to get off my bike because it wasn't safe to try to cycle through the crowds. There were lots of older (looking 70s and up) couples, some families and many, many groups of adults together.

Very, very few wearing masks and no distancing whatsoever. I became quite concerned really and felt uncomfortable being in the crowd. 

I certainly hope that this was just the novelty factor and that people naturally disperse a bit as things move forward.

I am now more convinced than ever that those of us who think that the "new normal" will be any different to the "old normal" will be proved wrong very quickly. Not many people are afraid of this still.


----------



## Alcalaina

kaipa said:


> But what happens if Sanchez does not get approval on Wednesday,?. Does that mean that all the ideas of shades etc cannot be implemented?


Good question! Casado is now saying that as things stand the PP won't support it. My guess is that it will get through, but there might have to be some compromises. If not, it would be very difficult for central government to manage the de-escalation without the necessary powers.


----------



## Overandout

Alcalaina said:


> Good question! Casado is now saying that as things stand the PP won't support it. My guess is that it will get through, but there might have to be some compromises. If not, it would be very difficult for central government to manage the de-escalation without the necessary powers.


It is a good question but from what I can read, the withdrawal of the PP's "support" would not necessarily mean that the ramp down plans would have to change completely.

As an example, the PP has already opposed other measures like some of the protections set up by Sanchez such as the prohibition on firing people and the ban on evictions for non-payment of rent, but they still went through.

I think that the problem for us laymen is that in one Decreto, several points can be set out, some rely on the state of alarm being in place because that suspends some of the constitutional limitations on law-making, but others would be enforceable without the state of alarm.

So if Pablo manages to stop the extension of the state of alarm next week, the Decrees brought into force since the state was introduced would automatically be partially repealed. And it is not easy to know which parts, but we could expect for example that movement around Spain would be reinstated because that is one of the clear example of something that can only be limited by a state of alarm. A grey area would be the occupancy of bars and restaurants.

This is just my opinion though, I am by no means an expert on constitutional law!!


----------



## kaipa

Yes
The whole thing is becoming absurd
Casado is claiming that he would have been rolling out massive testing from day one. Funny I dont think he actually mentioned any of that at the time. Now he is doing the rounds saying that it's a disgrace Sanchez doesn't have a plan B because PP are not going to support the prolongation as it stands at the moment. If this were the case then people would simply be able to do whatever they wanted next week etc. It really is so irresponsible to be playing politics when everyone needs clear advice and plans.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> Yes
> The whole thing is becoming absurd
> Casado is claiming that he would have been rolling out massive testing from day one. Funny I dont think he actually mentioned any of that at the time. Now he is doing the rounds saying that it's a disgrace Sanchez doesn't have a plan B because PP are not going to support the prolongation as it stands at the moment. If this were the case then people would simply be able to do whatever they wanted next week etc. It really is so irresponsible to be playing politics when everyone needs clear advice and plans.


 And just how would have that been possible I ask myself? Tests were not available.
The opposition could really grow in this pandemic by cooperating and showing themselves to be the bigger man. Instead they've used it to to make demeaning criticisms of the government. Unfortunately I know people who support them. Worrying!


----------



## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> The opposition could really grow in this pandemic by cooperating and showing themselves to be the bigger man. Instead they've used it to to make demeaning criticisms of the government. Unfortunately I know people who support them. Worrying!


I question that. In some cultures that would be the case, but Spain is different (well not just Spain, but it's a nice soundbite).

I too know a lot of people who support the right and they generally are not impressed by dialogue, reason and negotiation. What works here is chest out, red faced confrontation.

Look at the chanting crowds who were shouting "a por ellos" when buses of Guardia Civil were sent from Sevilla to Catalonia at the time of the "illegal" referendum. They didn't want them to go to keep the peace exactly.

The PP are just playing to their crowd, which they know very well.


----------



## kaipa

I find it worrying as it could plunge the country into political paralysis. Unlike UK ,where Johnson has a big majority, Spain is so weakened by having this fragile coalition it plays into the hands of PP and VOX. I thing Sanchez has to look for help and sense from PNV to get the prolongation through on Wednesday


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> I question that. In some cultures that would be the case, but Spain is different (well not just Spain, but it's a nice soundbite).
> 
> I too know a lot of people who support the right and they generally are not impressed by dialogue, reason and negotiation. What works here is chest out, red faced confrontation.
> 
> Look at the chanting crowds who were shouting "a por ellos" when buses of Guardia Civil were sent from Sevilla to Catalonia at the time of the "illegal" referendum. They didn't want them to go to keep the peace exactly.
> 
> The PP are just playing to their crowd, which they know very well.


 Hadn't thought about it being a cultural, Spanish thing...
I don't think it is actually, look at Trump followers, the Brexit arguments, kind of "chest out, red faced confrontation" I'd say, wouldn't you?


----------



## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hadn't thought about it being a cultural, Spanish thing...
> I don't think it is actually, look at Trump followers, the Brexit arguments, kind of "chest out, red faced confrontation" I'd say, wouldn't you?


I'm glad you see the similarities between the right wing in Spain and Trump and his supporters. That was one of the reasons why I said that it is not just Spain that is different!

In the UK I'm not so in agreement, in fact my opinion is that the opposition during Brexit should have got more "chest out, and red faced", it might have had more effect.


----------



## Alcalaina

From El Público:

EL CORONAVIRUS Y LA OPOSICIÓN
"Pablo Casado, a punto de recomendar inyecciones de lejía": las redes critican la "irresponsabilidad" del PP en la crisis

(For non-Spanish speakers, Casado is being ridiculed on social media for behaving like Trump and on the point of recommending injections of bleach.)


----------



## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> From El Público:
> 
> EL CORONAVIRUS Y LA OPOSICIÓN
> "Pablo Casado, a punto de recomendar inyecciones de lejía": las redes critican la "irresponsabilidad" del PP en la crisis
> 
> (For non-Spanish speakers, Casado is being ridiculed in the media for behaving like Trump and appears to be on the point of recommending injections of bleach.)


Another Trump minime - though not quite as orange


----------



## Isobella

Tanzania and a couple of other African countries are importing a herbal cure for the virus.


----------



## Raymin

The herbal root HAS worked in the past, many times, maybe it will this time for Tanzania. What else have they got.


----------



## Chopera

My understanding is that Casado does not want the ERTEs to be linked to the State of Alarm. As things stand, as soon as the State of Alarm is over the ERTEs stop and everyone goes back to work (or not). Given that companies and employees will probably need to receive a lot of financial help from the state for many more months, he says the legislation should be amended so the ERTEs can continue, and the state can keep supporting companies/employees after the State of Alarm has finished.

At the moment he says he feels he is effectively being blackmailed into extending the State of Alarm because the alternative is for the ERTEs to end, and lots of companies to lay people off. Apparently he has already proposed an amendment.


----------



## kaipa

Chopera said:


> My understanding is that Casado does not want the ERTEs to be linked to the State of Alarm. As things stand, as soon as the State of Alarm is over the ERTEs stop and everyone goes back to work (or not). Given that companies and employees will probably need to receive a lot of financial help from the state for many more months, he says the legislation should be amended so the ERTEs can continue, and the state can keep supporting companies/employees after the State of Alarm has finished.
> 
> At the moment he says he feels he is effectively being blackmailed into extending the State of Alarm because the alternative is for the ERTEs to end, and lots of companies to lay people off. Apparently he has already proposed an amendment.


Isnt that a bit weird. As you say the ERTEs finish when the SOA finishes. If he doesnt support the vote then the SOA would not be prolonged. If the SOA finishes so does the ERTEs?. If ERTEs end then everyone is laid off.

Surely he doesn't like ERTEs as it will cost so much. Doesnt he want to protect business? That is why PP communities want to lift restrictions: to get the economy operating. Sanchez wants to protect the workers so therefore continue the ERTEs.


----------



## Overandout

An ERTE doesn't cost a company anything, that's why the PP want it to continue.

The day the SOA ends many businesses will still be in huge financial trouble. Payment terms in Spain are usually 60 days, so the cash situation of a company can be expected to be worse 2 months after stopping or limiting trade.

Casado's other big issue (I think the real issue) is the conditions for making workers redundant. Normally a worker made redundant gets 20 days' wages of compensation for each year worked but in the Covid act the government raised that to 33 days, making it much more expensive to get rid of people for business owners.

The PSOE were slowly going to undo the changes to the labour situation which the PP put in place to help businesses and penalise workers, the Covid crisis has helped that process along and it hurts Casado to see that his "support" to the Covid is part of that.


----------



## kaipa

I think PP are bluffing in that they hope Ciudadanos will vote with the government and the prolongation will continue and Casado can present himself as the leader of an alternative possibility that never happened. Of course if it looks like the government wont get the vote he will be terrified that not only spanish people will take to their balcones but it will be reported all over the world and not in a positive light.


----------



## Chopera

kaipa said:


> Isnt that a bit weird. As you say the ERTEs finish when the SOA finishes. If he doesnt support the vote then the SOA would not be prolonged. If the SOA finishes so does the ERTEs?. If ERTEs end then everyone is laid off.


I think you've just described why he doesn't want the ERTEs to be linked to the State of Alarm.



kaipa said:


> ISurely he doesn't like ERTEs as it will cost so much. Doesnt he want to protect business? That is why PP communities want to lift restrictions: to get the economy operating. Sanchez wants to protect the workers so therefore continue the ERTEs.


I'm not aware of him saying he doesn't like ERTEs, but I have to admit I haven't been following this very closely.


----------



## Chopera

Overandout said:


> An ERTE doesn't cost a company anything, that's why the PP want it to continue.
> 
> The day the SOA ends many businesses will still be in huge financial trouble. Payment terms in Spain are usually 60 days, so the cash situation of a company can be expected to be worse 2 months after stopping or limiting trade.
> 
> Casado's other big issue (I think the real issue) is the conditions for making workers redundant. Normally a worker made redundant gets 20 days' wages of compensation for each year worked but in the Covid act the government raised that to 33 days, making it much more expensive to get rid of people for business owners.
> 
> The PSOE were slowly going to undo the changes to the labour situation which the PP put in place to help businesses and penalise workers, the Covid crisis has helped that process along and it hurts Casado to see that his "support" to the Covid is part of that.


Is the increase in redundancy to 33 days permanent? Or just during the State of Alarm?


----------



## Overandout

Chopera said:


> Is the increase in redundancy to 33 days permanent? Or just during the State of Alarm?


It is under a section called "complementary measures to the state of alarm", so it will not apply to "ordinary" redundancies, nor to ERTE's not put in place using the Covid outbreak as the justifying Force Majeure event.


----------



## Chopera

Overandout said:


> It is under a section called "complementary measures to the state of alarm", so it will not apply to "ordinary" redundancies, nor to ERTE's not put in place using the Covid outbreak as the justifying Force Majeure event.


Thanks, I thought they'd made it legally difficult to make someone on an indefinido contract redundant during the State of Alarm anyway. So it seems that in practice the increase to 33 days probably won't apply to that many people.


----------



## Overandout

Chopera said:


> Thanks, I thought they'd made it legally difficult to make someone on an indefinido contract redundant during the State of Alarm anyway. So it seems that in practice the increase to 33 days probably won't apply to that many people.


Sadly, there will probably be many companies who won't be able to take staff back on once the SOA has ended, so that 33 day compensation may apply to more than would be ideal. A huge proportion of tourist industry workers will surely be affected.

The problem for the PP (which I understand logically) is that if a company can't afford to take the worker back on when the SOA ends, how will they be able to afford 33 days' compensation.

The PP thinks that this will force more businesses into bankruptcy than would have been the case under the "normal" rules.


----------



## kaipa

Casado is just stirring things up. Basically he is saying he doesn't like SOA as it limits persons freedoms. However, he then goes on to suggest there are alternatives to doing everything that is being done at the moment ( keeping ERTEs) but without SOA . In other words, it just a load of noise meant to be heard by his supporters so as they dont start to align themselves with VOX. It has ****** all to do with helping Spain deal with the crisis


----------



## Alcalaina

tayalor said:


> in my opinion due to lockdown its a huge impact on pollution


Yes, air pollution levels have dropped dramatically with the reduction in air and road traffic. But according to an expert I heard on the radio, within a month of returning to normal it will be back to how it was before. And the lockdown will have virtually no lasting impact on carbon dioxide levels.


----------



## timwip

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, air pollution levels have dropped dramatically with the reduction in air and road traffic. But according to an expert I heard on the radio, within a month of returning to normal it will be back to how it was before. And the lockdown will have virtually no lasting impact on carbon dioxide levels.


World-wide there has been a big improvement in air pollution; however, after this crisis is over, I could see people being more reluctant to take public transportation. As a result, there could be a long-term negative impact.


----------



## kaipa

Cuidadanos have reached an agreement with government tonight to support them in tomorrow's vote


----------



## kaipa

For those of you following the spanish news: it looks as if PNV will now back Sanchez which along with Ciudadanos should get the vote through irrespective of PPs pathetic stunt. Tentative relief!!!


----------



## xgarb

Maybe this will be the start of a drift to the centre and the PP's attempt at wooing the Vox voters will end up with both of them losing support.


----------



## kaipa

xgarb said:


> Maybe this will be the start of a drift to the centre and the PP's attempt at wooing the Vox voters will end up with both of them losing support.


I think after Isabel Diaz A. remarks about death by cars she made at weekend have been traced back to the exact words Trump used many of PP supporters must be very embarrassed. She really behaves and thinks like an 18 year old


----------



## Overandout

kaipa said:


> I think after Isabel Diaz A. remarks about death by cars she made at weekend have been traced back to the exact words Trump used many of PP supporters must be very embarrassed. She really behaves and thinks like an 18 year old


I´m not so sure that Ayuso is going to be embarrassed about having the same ideas as Trump.

I said to some Spanish friends yesterday in a Whatsapp chat that she is like a Spanish, female version of Trump.

I now call her Trumpeta.


----------



## xabiaxica

So which Phase will your area be in on Monday, & what do you think of it?


We're moving to Phase 1, but as far as my daughter & I are concerned, we'll be carrying on as we have for the past couple of months for a while longer, or at least until we see how others react & how contagion figures go.


----------



## xabiaxica

A local summer camp aimed at Spanish kids learning English has just announced that it will be running in July. 

The kids stay with host families, or at least that's how it's always been done in the past. We used to do it when our girls were kids. 

It will be interesting to see how that pans out.


----------



## Love Karma

xabiaxica said:


> So which Phase will your area be in on Monday, & what do you think of it?
> 
> 
> We're moving to Phase 1, but as far as my daughter & I are concerned, we'll be carrying on as we have for the past couple of months for a while longer, or at least until we see how others react & how contagion figures go.


Staying in Phase 0 here and happy to do so. Even when we eventually go to Phase 1 I won't be rushing to do things until a while later to see how the figures react.


----------



## Williams2

xabiaxica said:


> So which Phase will your area be in on Monday, & what do you think of it?
> 
> We're moving to Phase 1, but as far as my daughter & I are concerned, we'll be carrying on as we have for the past couple of months for a while longer, or at least until we see how others react & how contagion figures go.


Asturias will be moving to phase 1 as well.


----------



## baldilocks

Here we are still continuing to respect the lockdown rules. We move to Phase 1 on Monday but SWMBO says *we* are going to continue as we are for the time being, i.e. in lockdown state, more or less.


----------



## Allie-P

I think each of us should work out our own lock-down routines, determining which are the safest for us and others. 

My only disappointment is not being able to sit in the front seat of the car. I recently had a knee operation and can’t manoeuvre my leg into the back. Phase 1 allowed members of the same household to sit there.

For essential travel to Hospital, of course. I was, also ,hoping to be driven the I KM to La Cala de Mijas, where I could have my daily hobble.

I have no inclination to social distance in bars.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiaxica said:


> So which Phase will your area be in on Monday, & what do you think of it?
> 
> 
> We're moving to Phase 1, but as far as my daughter & I are concerned, we'll be carrying on as we have for the past couple of months for a while longer, or at least until we see how others react & how contagion figures go.


 Madrid, of course, is not moving to phase 1 and we are happy about that.
Meetings of up to 10 people? Scary!!
Think your way of thinking is wise, wait and see what happens...
I go out every day, usually on my own, occasionally with OH, but he prefers the bike, along country paths where there are other people but not too many at 7:30 in the morning, and it feels glorious!!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Allie-P said:


> I think each of us should work out our own lock-down routines, determining which are the safest for us and others.
> 
> My only disappointment is not being able to sit in the front seat of the car. I recently had a knee operation and can’t manoeuvre my leg into the back. Phase 1 allowed members of the same household to sit there.
> 
> For essential travel to Hospital, of course. I was, also ,hoping to be driven the I KM to La Cala de Mijas, where I could have my daily hobble.
> 
> I have no inclination to social distance in bars.


 Pretty sure you'd be able to sit in the front with that problem, especially if you showed willing and used a mask.
As the dr. to write an official note


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Madrid, of course, is not moving to phase 1 and we are happy about that.
> Meetings of up to 10 people? Scary!!
> Think your way of thinking is wise, wait and see what happens...


Yes! & restaurants can accept bookings for table of up to 10 people - providing distancing rules from other diners are observed. Quite how that can work I have no idea. Most pleaces I know would be too small to manage that.

Up to 10 people in your home, too! 


This 'might' encourage me to wander out into town though. I can't get far without having to sit down due to hip pain, so I'm tempted to go out knowing that I should be able to sit outside a nearby bar with a coffee. Though again, I'll be waiting a couple of weeks to see how things pan out.


----------



## Allie-P

Good idea. I have an appointment with the Hospital Doctor on Monday. Thank you.


----------



## Williams2

No doubt lots of people with smartphones snitching on infractions in phase 1 - such a perverse sport
during the lockdowns.


----------



## baldilocks

i'm hoping that the cafetería we use in Alcalá will be open, that is where we get our sachets of sweetener (we buy them, not nick them!) and our supply is almost out.


----------



## baldilocks

*Olive Pollen*

Another good reason to stay locked down/in is the quantity of Olive pollen in the air. All the cars around here are a Yellowy-green colour from the density of the pollen.


----------



## Alcalaina

xabiaxica said:


> So which Phase will your area be in on Monday, & what do you think of it?
> 
> We're moving to Phase 1, but as far as my daughter & I are concerned, we'll be carrying on as we have for the past couple of months for a while longer, or at least until we see how others react & how contagion figures go.


Cadiz province is moving to Phase 1 and our favourite bar is opening midday on Monday, so we will go and see the family that run it, who are good friends of ours, and try to spend as much as possible. It will be hard not to hug them thoigh.  

Otherwise life will go on much as normal, the occasional quick trip to the shops in the morning to buy food, and a nice stroll in the evening. I don't have any urgent desire to have a party or go sightseeing. I quite enjoy staying at home and birdwatching from the roof terrace. 

It's annoying that OH still won't be able to drive to Mercadona in the next town though - even though it's in the same province, you can only visit shops in other municipalities if you can't get what you need in your own.

I feel sorry for those people in Málaga and Granada who live outside the capitals. But I can see why you have to have the borders at provincial level, it would be very difficult to know when you are crossing from one territory to another if the borders were based on hospital catchment areas, which is what the Junta wanted.


----------



## Lynn R

Alcalaina said:


> I feel sorry for those people in Málaga and Granada who live outside the capitals. But I can see why you have to have the borders at provincial level, it would be very difficult to know when you are crossing from one territory to another if the borders were based on hospital catchment areas, which is what the Junta wanted.


Although, in their response to the decision the Junta de Andalucia say that part of some provinces in other communities have been allowed to progress to Phase 1, which they claim discriminates against Andalucia. I don't know which ones they refer to, but if true that does on the face of it seem unfair. If the decision was that it must be all of a province or none of it, for the very valid reason you give, that would be understandable.

https://www.malagahoy.es/malaga/cor...riminacion-provincia-fase-0_0_1462953895.html


----------



## Alcalaina

Lynn R said:


> Although, in their response to the decision the Junta de Andalucia say that part of some provinces in other communities have been allowed to progress to Phase 1, which they claim discriminates against Andalucia. I don't know which ones they refer to, but if true that does on the face of it seem unfair. If the decision was that it must be all of a province or none of it, for the very valid reason you give, that would be understandable.
> 
> https://www.malagahoy.es/malaga/cor...riminacion-provincia-fase-0_0_1462953895.html


In Catalonia there were three sanitary districts that moved to Phase 1 while the rest of the region stayed behind. Don't know the reason, but I think they were quite small and isolated (in the Pyrenees maybe?)


----------



## xabiaxica

Valencia has been broken down by health authorities.

#13 is where I am.


----------



## Lynn R

xabiaxica said:


> Valencia has been broken down by health authorities.
> 
> #13 is where I am.


In that case, I have to say that it seems the Junta de Andalucia have reason to feel aggrieved. Consistency should have been applied, in my opinion.

It's easy for me, with an income which hasn't been affected one bit by the corona virus pandemic, to sit here and say oh well, I don't mind if we continue in Phase 0 for however long, but I suspect were I the owner of a local business or someone who works in one my view would be different. On our evening walks we've started to see lots of signs in shop windows saying "we will be open again on 11th May" and I'm sure they will be feeling very disheartened.


----------



## kaipa

xabiaxica said:


> A local summer camp aimed at Spanish kids learning English has just announced that it will be running in July.
> 
> The kids stay with host families, or at least that's how it's always been done in the past. We used to do it when our girls were kids.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how that pans out.


I take it this in England/ Ireland.? If so I dont think these camps will happen as apart from social distancing making home stays very difficult there is going to be a 14 day quarantine in UK.


----------



## kaipa

xabiaxica said:


> Pesky Wesky said:
> 
> 
> 
> Madrid, of course, is not moving to phase 1 and we are happy about that.
> Meetings of up to 10 people? Scary!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Think your way of thinking is wise, wait and see what happens...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes! & restaurants can accept bookings for table of up to 10 people - providing distancing rules from other diners are observed. Quite how that can work I have no idea. Most pleaces I know would be too small to manage that.
> 
> Up to 10 people in your home, too!
> 
> 
> This 'might' encourage me to wander out into town though. I can't get far without having to sit down due to hip pain, so I'm tempted to go out knowing that I should be able to sit outside a nearby bar with a coffee. Though again, I'll be waiting a couple of weeks to see how things pan out.
Click to expand...

I didn't think food could be served in the bars outside just drinks( maybe I'm wrong)


----------



## Alcalaina

kaipa said:


> I didn't think food could be served in the bars outside just drinks( maybe I'm wrong)


They can serve food outside I think, but no sharing from the same plate, and no physical menus to be passed round.


----------



## Simon22

xabiaxica said:


> Valencia has been broken down by health authorities.
> 
> #13 is where I am.


We're in #22 and right on the border, we can drive south but not north.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> I take it this in England/ Ireland.? If so I dont think these camps will happen as apart from social distancing making home stays very difficult there is going to be a 14 day quarantine in UK.


Nope, in Spain


----------



## Tigerlillie

I can envisage Spain going into lockdown again, bars opening, restaurants opening, summer camps, WTAF


----------



## kaipa

Pesky Wesky said:


> Nope, in Spain


Quite a few Language schools seem to be planning to open 24th May. Not sure there will be much business as it is too near the end of the school term and the social distancing is going to reduce class sizes to such an extent it isnt going to be financially viable, plus all staff are immediately taken off ERTE which means having to pay them. How can it work??


----------



## Tigerlillie

Lynn R said:


> Although, in their response to the decision the Junta de Andalucia say that part of some provinces in other communities have been allowed to progress to Phase 1, which they claim discriminates against Andalucia. * I don't know which ones they refer to, but if true that does on the face of it seem unfair.* If the decision was that it must be all of a province or none of it, for the very valid reason you give, that would be understandable.
> 
> https://www.malagahoy.es/malaga/cor...riminacion-provincia-fase-0_0_1462953895.html


Yes but life is unfair, most of France is green to go but The Great North East is still red for danger on our maps and the restrictions there will be more severe than green areas, it has also been pointed out on the French forum because of our 100 km radius boundary for unrestricted travel but still following the rules with regards to social distancing, no more than 10 people in small gatherings etc, those who live by the coast have been restricted by distance more than those like myself (I live in central Brittany). I can get to the North and West coast and a fairly large city from my house but guess what, that's the way the cookie crumbles.


----------



## 95995

Pesky Wesky said:


> Nope, in Spain


They are apparently planning a 14 day quarantine in the UK (the airlines are up in arms about it - I believe a report appeared in The times and I saw a report on MSN.COM. There is a 14 day quarantine in France for overseas arrivals, in fact that exists in many countries.


----------



## 95995

Tigerlillie said:


> Yes but life is unfair, most of France is green to go but The Great North East is still red for danger on our maps and t*he restrictions there will be more severe than green areas*, it has also been pointed out on the French forum because of our 100 km radius boundary for unrestricted travel but still following the rules with regards to social distancing, no more than 10 people in small gatherings etc, those who live by the coast have been restricted by distance more than those like myself (I live in central Brittany). I can get to the North and West coast and a fairly large city from my house but guess what, that's the way the cookie crumbles.


The restrictions in red zones will not be much different to those in green zones, basically public parks and gardens will be closed and Collège won't recommence. In the Île-de-France there are special restrictions on public transport. Some elected members in the Grand Est are up in arms about the easing of restrictions there, and many working in the health sector are understandably very concerned about the easing of restrictions, particularly in the red zones and especially in the Grand Est.


----------



## stevesainty

Simon22 said:


> We're in #22 and right on the border, we can drive south but not north.


 We live in Torrevieja too, but driving south you can only go as far as Pilar de la Horadada and not into Murcia, sureley.


----------



## Tigerlillie

EverHopeful said:


> *The restrictions in red zones will not be much different to those in green zones*, basically public parks and gardens will be closed and Collège won't recommence. *In the Île-de-France there are special restrictions on public transport.* Some elected members in the Grand Est are up in arms about the easing of restrictions there, and many working in the health sector are understandably very concerned about the easing of restrictions, particularly in the red zones and especially in the Grand Est.


I do know that EH but they will still be different.

You've even pointed out in your post vis a vis the differences regarding public transport.


----------



## 95995

All I can say is that this lifting of restrictions is an immense risk both in Spain and in France. And frankly neither country would be able to cope with an increase in infections that result in serious illness. The frontline health workers are exhausted and traumatised, as are staff in aged care facilities, they need a very lengthy break in order to recover, as well as long term psychological help to deal with PTSD.


----------



## Tigerlillie

EverHopeful said:


> All I can say is that this lifting of restrictions is an immense risk both in Spain and in France. And frankly neither country would be able to cope with an increase in infections that result in serious illness. *The frontline health workers are exhausted and traumatised,* as are staff in aged care facilities, they need a very lengthy break in order to recover, as well as long term psychological help to deal with PTSD.


I think that's true everywhere throughout the world though, Megsmum was/is a nurse and she worked as an anesthetic nurse in theatres where you lose people on the table or even in recovery and that must be traumatic enough but nurses on general wards have been expected to cope with this pandemic and have had to work where they're not used to dealing with death on this scale, it must be even more traumatic for them than those that have more experience in coping with death in different fields of nursing.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

EverHopeful said:


> They are apparently planning a 14 day quarantine in the UK (the airlines are up in arms about it - I believe a report appeared in The times and I saw a report on MSN.COM. There is a 14 day quarantine in France for overseas arrivals, in fact that exists in many countries.


xabiaxica is referring to courses for English speaking kids mostly in living in Spain. Neither of us have anything to do with the courses.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Tigerlillie said:


> I can envisage Spain going into lockdown again, bars opening, restaurants opening, summer camps, WTAF





EverHopeful said:


> All I can say is that this lifting of restrictions is an immense risk both in Spain and in France. And frankly neither country would be able to cope with an increase in infections that result in serious illness. The frontline health workers are exhausted and traumatised, as are staff in aged care facilities, they need a very lengthy break in order to recover, as well as long term psychological help to deal with PTSD.


 And maybe that negative can be turned into a positive and more people will be convinced that lockdown is necessary. Maybe people who are relaxing a bit need to see that if they don't behave themselves and the numbers go up, they'll get locked away again...
However, the President will need balls of steel if he needs to announce that things are going backwards. And how will the country support the level of economic decline? The only answer seems to be to work around/ with/ during the virus. It's not going to go away even though it may lie dormant for a few weeks


----------



## Simon22

stevesainty said:


> We live in Torrevieja too, but driving south you can only go as far as Pilar de la Horadada and not into Murcia, sureley.


True, we can't go far but it's a start, although realistically I am not going anywhere yet, I want to see that people are doing the right thing first.


----------



## Williams2

Here's a good article on a rundown of all the different Spanish phases from the adjustment to
the initial State of Alarm lockdown.

Sur in English - Spain's scale down phases explained in pictures


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> xabiaxica is referring to courses for English speaking kids mostly in living in Spain. Neither of us have anything to do with the courses.



In the past it has been a 'camp' for Spanish kids from all over Spain, learning English. Native English speakers weren't accepted,

This year they are trying to attract locals too, & are hinting that native English speakers will also be accepted.


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> I take it this in England/ Ireland.? If so I dont think these camps will happen as apart from social distancing making home stays very difficult there is going to be a 14 day quarantine in UK.


Nope - here in Jávea. 

I can't see how it can work either. 

Although they have actual English lessons, it's mostly activity based, in English. 

In the past I've done the 'host family' thing, but I definitely wouldn't be interested this year.


----------



## Overandout

I think it's a given that once restrictions are lifted, cases of infection will rise. This is why the capacity of hospitals is the main parameter. 
Even in the worst hit areas only an estimated 5% of people have had it, that's a lot of new victims out there.
We shouldn't make the mistake to think that any increase is a failure. The failure is an unmanageable increase.


----------



## Overandout

I just went out with my kids for the first time since the parks in the Madrid district opened.

What a massive difference! 

From crowded pavements next to live traffic, we suddenly are walking and playing meters apart and in beautiful surroundings again.


----------



## Williams2

Good morning Phase 1

:clap2:


----------



## tarot650

Williams2 said:


> Good morning Phase 1
> 
> :clap2:


Well are you not the lucky one Willy.


----------



## Pesky Wesky




----------



## Alcalaina

Very good ...

In the bar we went to yesterday (the only one open here at the moment) the owner had set up a counter in the doorway where you order your drinks. Disposable tablecloth, bottles of hand sanitizer etc etc. He puts the drinks on the counter, you pick them up and take them to your table, then when you come to pay, its the same in reverse. No table service. Just as well really, I don't want a bottle of Estrella del Sur thrown at me from two metres away!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> Very good ...
> 
> In the bar we went to yesterday (the only one open here at the moment) the owner had set up a counter in the doorway where you order your drinks. Disposable tablecloth, bottles of hand sanitizer etc etc. He puts the drinks on the counter, you pick them up and take them to your table, then when you come to pay, its the same in reverse. No table service. Just as well really, I don't want a bottle of Estrella del Sur thrown at me from two metres away!


 And what about toilets? Do you have access to them?
I'm pretty apprehensive about going to a bar I have to say. It's going to really weird, like the first time we went to a supermarket after lockdown, but we got used to it, didn't we?


----------



## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> And what about toilets? Do you have access to them?
> I'm pretty apprehensive about going to a bar I have to say. It's going to really weird, like the first time we went to a supermarket after lockdown, but we got used to it, didn't we?


You do it the way they used to, at the kerbside but no squatting closer than 2 metres.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

baldilocks said:


> You do it the way they used to, at the kerbside but no squatting closer than 2 metres.


EUHEWWW:hand:


----------



## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> And what about toilets? Do you have access to them?
> I'm pretty apprehensive about going to a bar I have to say. It's going to really weird, like the first time we went to a supermarket after lockdown, but we got used to it, didn't we?


Yes, you could use the toilets. They have to be disinfected several times a day. Not a problem as long as you wash your hands properly. The risk of contagion from surfaces is very much overexaggerated, if you look at the actual science. 

It was fine, it felt good. I might have felt differently if it had been full of people but as I said, there was only us and one other couple. Looking forward to a nice relaxing cup of cafe con leche after I've done my weekly fruit & veg shop tomorrow morning.


----------



## Lynn R

One of the things I'm really missing is a good cup of café con leche, sitting outside a bar or café. Enjoy, Alcalaina!

I used public transport for the first time yesterday (our local bus service). Masks and gloves compulsory of course, and the driver confirmed that it was fine to pay for a single journey in cash. On the outward journey there were 4 passengers travelling at the most (some got on later than I did) and just 2 on the way back, with 1 of them boarding half way along the route. So no problem with social distancing at all, but I wasn't travelling at a time when people would be going to or returning from work, so it would probably be different once we reach the later phases of de-escalation (if we ever do).

At the hairdressers, they were keeping the door locked and only letting clients in when their stylist was ready for them, no waiting in the salon allowed. Again masks and gloves to be worn by both staff and customers, and the staff had plastic aprons too. Only disposable towels were being used and plastic gowns instead of nylon ones. Workstations and chairs were disinfected after each customer and they weren't allowed to serve any drinks (customers are usually offered tea or coffee) or have magazines for customers to read.

Afterwards I visited a supermarket to buy something I can't get in any of the ones closer to me. Whilst walking back to the bus station from there, I was passed by both a Policia Nacional patrol car and a Policia Local one and neither of them took any notice of me at all (this was between 4.30 and 5.00 pm). Torre del Mar was absolutely deserted, even fewer people on the streets than we see in Vélez.

I didn't enjoy the experience of wearing a face mask at all. For the outward journey and whilst at the hairdressers I wore a surgical one bought from the pharmacy as I didn't want to get hair dye on a washable one. Within 5 minutes of putting it on I had to take my varifocal sunglasses off to clean them as they were so steamed up, and after having to do that twice more after a very short time I gave up and couldn't wear my glasses (which I'm supposed to wear all the time) and my forehead was wet with sweat by the time I got to the salon, I felt I couldn't breathe properly either. It was a cool day yesterday so Heaven knows what wearing a mask will be like when we get to 35C or more in the summer, and I can't not wear sunglasses outdoors then because the glare is too bad. I also found that the surgical mask had gaps at the side and kept riding up until it was touching my eyes which was uncomfortable and I had to keep pulling it down, not good as I understand once on you are not supposed to touch them. For the return journey I changed the mask to a washable cotton one which fit better, could breathe more easily and didn't make me feel so hot (but which probably means it is less effective anyway). 

I see from press reports that some regions (Andalucia amongst them) are pressing for face masks to be made compulsory in all public spaces, although Fernando Simón is still saying that social distancing is more effective and that the risk of being infected by passing someone outside is extremely low.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, you could use the toilets. They have to be disinfected several times a day. Not a problem as long as you wash your hands properly. The risk of contagion from surfaces is very much overexaggerated, if you look at the actual science.
> 
> It was fine, it felt good. I might have felt differently if it had been full of people but as I said, there was only us and one other couple. Looking forward to a nice relaxing cup of cafe con leche after I've done my weekly fruit & veg shop tomorrow morning.


 Pure luxury!
I'll go to bars when they open here, I'll try it out and see how it goes. I think they are a basic necessity and want them to survive.
Going to the hairdresser on Monday!!!! Can't believe it! I usually go about every 4/5 weeks as my hair grows very quickly. I haven't been for 10 weeks


----------



## kaipa

F.Simon is saying that masks are not as effective as social distancing as the current advice is wear when social distancing is difficult to maintain. Compulsory on public transport


----------



## Alcalaina

kaipa said:


> F.Simon is saying that masks are not as effective as social distancing as the current advice is wear when social distancing is difficult to maintain. Compulsory on public transport


I hope his argument prevails. Masks can give people a false sense of security, especially as most people still think they offer protection from the virus (they don't, they are used to stop the wearer spreading it). 

I ran into a friend on my walk last night and she took the mask off to say hello, which kind of misses the point ...


----------



## Alcalaina

Lynn R said:


> It was a cool day yesterday so Heaven knows what wearing a mask will be like when we get to 35C or more in the summer, and I can't not wear sunglasses outdoors then because the glare is too bad.


Do you actually go outside when it's that hot? 

These days I wear wide-brimmed hats in the street. They do help protect your eyes from the glare. 

Has anyone tried washing glasses in soapy water to stop them misting up?


----------



## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> Pure luxury!
> I'll go to bars when they open here, I'll try it out and see how it goes. I think they are a basic necessity and want them to survive.
> Going to the hairdresser on Monday!!!! Can't believe it! I usually go about every 4/5 weeks as my hair grows very quickly. I haven't been for 10 weeks


Good, I like long hair on girls.


----------



## Lynn R

Alcalaina said:


> Do you actually go outside when it's that hot?
> 
> These days I wear wide-brimmed hats in the street. They do help protect your eyes from the glare.
> 
> Has anyone tried washing glasses in soapy water to stop them misting up?


Yes I do, I actually find the heat more bearable when I'm moving around than staying indoors (unless we have the aircon on which we don't bother with unless it's a real scorcher and over 40). I have very thick hair and don't like wearing hats as they make my head too hot, my scalp doesn't get burnt.

I'll try that soapy water thing for washing my glasses, I'll try anything that might stop them getting steamed up when wearing a mask. I felt like ripping that surgical one off, throwing it on the floor and stamping on it by the time I got out of the hairdressers yesterday - but of course I didn't, I disposed of it properly.


----------



## Overandout

Alcalaina said:


> Has anyone tried washing glasses in soapy water to stop them misting up?


As a year round motorcyclist for 30 years I have been doing that for a long time.

The best result is not to use any water. Just rub a bar of soap (dry or very very lightly humidified) onto the outside and inside of the lenses so that some soap residue is visible on both sides. Then, with a normal glasses cloth extend it over the whole of the lense, inside and out and polish clean with another clean glasses cloth.

That will almost totally prevent steaming up.


----------



## Lynn R

Overandout said:


> As a year round motorcyclist for 30 years I have been doing that for a long time.
> 
> The best result is not to use any water. Just rub a bar of soap (dry or very very lightly humidified) onto the outside and inside of the lenses so that some soap residue is visible on both sides. Then, with a normal glasses cloth extend it over the whole of the lense, inside and out and polish clean with another clean glasses cloth.
> 
> That will almost totally prevent steaming up.


Thank you, I'll try that. I assume it's best to do it just before you go out?


----------



## 95995

Lynn R said:


> Thank you, I'll try that. I assume it's best to do it just before you go out?


I agree with Overandout, though from my experience in Australia, dishwashing liquid works better and doesn't leave any smears.


----------



## Lynn R

EverHopeful said:


> I agree with Overandout, though from my experience in Australia, dishwashing liquid works better and doesn't leave any smears.


OK, we have both so I'll experiment.


----------



## Isobella

Lynn R said:


> Yes I do, I actually find the heat more bearable when I'm moving around than staying indoors (unless we have the aircon on which we don't bother with unless it's a real scorcher and over 40). I have very thick hair and don't like wearing hats as they make my head too hot, my scalp doesn't get burnt.
> 
> I'll try that soapy water thing for washing my glasses, I'll try anything that might stop them getting steamed up when wearing a mask. I felt like ripping that surgical one off, throwing it on the floor and stamping on it by the time I got out of the hairdressers yesterday - but of course I didn't, I disposed of it properly.


My mask really irritates me. As soon as I get it in place my nose itches. Have to keep poking my finger in to scratch which is a bit of a no no.

I think you are all brave going to hairdressers. Fortunately had a cut before lockdown and I felt uneasy then. I think I had a premonition as I asked for more off than usual.


----------



## Lynn R

Isobella said:


> My mask really irritates me. As soon as I get it in place my nose itches. Have to keep poking my finger in to scratch which is a bit of a no no.
> 
> I think you are all brave going to hairdressers. Fortunately had a cut before lockdown and I felt uneasy then. I think I had a premonition as I asked for more off than usual.


My own view (and it's very much a personal thing, everyone will feel differently about it) is that we will have to get used to doing things again (with sensible precautions in place) if we are not to remain sequestered away at home until a vaccine is available, and that could be a long time away yet. I have a hospital appointment (date given to me last November) next week, and will be going to that if it doesn't get cancelled in the meantime.

I had the whole summer written off in 2018 when I was recovering from heart surgery and couldn't go out much or do things. Last year the second half of the year was written off after my sister got killed, then I was diagnosed with endometrial cancer, had to have a hysterectomy with months more recovery time, then my aunt was taken ill and died. Just when we were looking forward to getting our lives back, this pandemic happens. I don't want it to ruin any more of our life than it absolutely has to (without taking any silly risks).

It's a fine line, though, as to when all the precautions put in place make some activity or other just not worth doing.


----------



## Williams2

kaipa said:


> F.Simon is saying that masks are not as effective as social distancing as the current advice is wear when social distancing is difficult to maintain. Compulsory on public transport


Round my way, face visors are becoming more noticeable and more prevalent now, many using stylish hat visors.


----------



## fortrose52

On telly, there are instructions for making your own masks, some by sewing and some non-sewing


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## Alcalaina

fortrose52 said:


> On telly, there are instructions for making your own masks, some by sewing and some non-sewing


I made one out of a vacuum-cleaner bag before the Ayuntamiento gave out free ones. I read that it was a good material to use because only the tiniest particles could pass through it. Of course unless you sellotape it to your face, this makes very little difference (apart from the risk of suffocation)!


----------



## baldilocks

I heard that you can use half a brassiere but only use the left half otherwise you will look like a right t*t.


----------



## Overandout

I have to say that I am confused by the current situation in the Madrid CA.

Obviously the state of alarm is still in effect nationwide, so we cannot use the public highway for any use other than those specifically authorised.

But in Madrid, we are still in Phase 0, so far so good. But now we have "concessions" which allow non-essential shops of up to 400m2 to open and attend to customers without prior appointments.

So, are we supposed to assume that we can use the public highway to get to these shops legally?

Clearly we cannot assume that going to Leroy Merlin is a necessity, but the implication is that if they can open, we can drive there right?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> I have to say that I am confused by the current situation in the Madrid CA.
> 
> Obviously the state of alarm is still in effect nationwide, so we cannot use the public highway for any use other than those specifically authorised.
> 
> But in Madrid, we are still in Phase 0, so far so good. But now we have "concessions" which allow non-essential shops of up to 400m2 to open and attend to customers without prior appointments.
> 
> So, are we supposed to assume that we can use the public highway to get to these shops legally?
> 
> Clearly we cannot assume that going to Leroy Merlin is a necessity, but the implication is that if they can open, we can drive there right?


 I agree it's confusing , and I think the only way to understand it is what you've said, if they are open, we can go.
Confused home worker
Madrid province


----------



## Simon22

Pesky Wesky said:


> I agree it's confusing , and I think the only way to understand it is what you've said, if they are open, we can go.
> Confused home worker
> Madrid province


Yes, as soon as they say you don't need an appointment that must mean you can just go and queue? Well someone has to test the theory now! haha


----------



## Overandout

I've got a long list of stuff I want from Leroy Merlin, but all their stores are outside Madrid in the surrounding municipalities, not actually in Madrid itself, so I'm assuming I still can't go.


----------



## baldilocks

Overandout said:


> I've got a long list of stuff I want from Leroy Merlin, but all their stores are outside Madrid in the surrounding municipalities, not actually in Madrid itself, so I'm assuming I still can't go.


What about: Calle de Raimundo Fernández Villaverde, nº 43, 28003 Madrid


----------



## Alcalaina

Overandout said:


> I've got a long list of stuff I want from Leroy Merlin, but all their stores are outside Madrid in the surrounding municipalities, not actually in Madrid itself, so I'm assuming I still can't go.


They will deliver.


----------



## Overandout

Alcalaina said:


> They will deliver.


Yes, they will, but I wanted to use their wood cutting service. We have had some plant pots and soil delivered during lockdown and the delivery took 3 days and cost 17€... not exactly Amazon standards.


----------



## Overandout

baldilocks said:


> What about: Calle de Raimundo Fernández Villaverde, nº 43, 28003 Madrid


Thanks but that is a Leroy Merlin "Urban", they don't sell real DIY stuff like wood and materials, just home furnishing type stuff.


----------



## Overandout

I'll just wait till next week. 
After all, Ayuso is spending Madrid's public money on taking the Central Government to court to ensure we go to phase 1....


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Woke up from a nightmare...
I was in a shopping centre, very few people. Then I suddenly realised it was the first day that they were open (why was I there??!)

10:00, the lights started to come on in the shops and the place filled up. Suddenly there were people everywhere, brushing past one another, and no one was wearing a mask, including me, like in the good old days! Suddenly I was standing at the counter in a bar and a boy was coughing all over me. He apologised and said "I'm sorry, it's just that this cough is so dry!"
I woke up...
Have realised that going into crowded places is going to be a nightmare!!


----------



## kaipa

Does anyone know where you can find if your area is moving to phase 2 on monday? I see that only half of Valencia region will move and it looks like Torrevieja and Benidorm will be ones staying although I'm not sure as I cant find a definitive announcement


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> Does anyone know where you can find if your area is moving to phase 2 on monday? I see that only half of Valencia region will move and it looks like Torrevieja and Benidorm will be ones staying although I'm not sure as I cant find a definitive announcement


 Put your postcode in here and it will tell you what you can and can't do
https://www.desescalapp.com/


----------



## kaipa

Pesky Wesky said:


> kaipa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone know where you can find if your area is moving to phase 2 on monday? I see that only half of Valencia region will move and it looks like Torrevieja and Benidorm will be ones staying although I'm not sure as I cant find a definitive announcement
> 
> 
> 
> Put your postcode in here and it will tell you what you can and can't do
> https://www.desescalapp.com/
Click to expand...

Thanks but that just tells me about the various restrictions for phase 1. I want to find out if my area in Valencia will move to phase 2 on Monday


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> Does anyone know where you can find if your area is moving to phase 2 on monday? I see that only half of Valencia region will move and it looks like Torrevieja and Benidorm will be ones staying although I'm not sure as I cant find a definitive announcement


None of the Valencia region is moving to phase 2. The health minister for the comumidad decided not to apply to, since 14 of the 24 health regions have been in phase 1 for less than a week. 

She stated that it is better to wait another week to see how numbers go.

https://www.lasprovincias.es/comuni...519192549-nt.html?ref=https://www.google.com/


----------



## xabiaxica

In my area, we have only one patient still in hospital with coronavirus. Yesterday morning there were 5, so 4 went home. There have been no ICU admissions for 2 weeks.


https://xabiaaldia.com/solo-un-paci...irus-sigue-ingresado-en-el-hospital-de-denia/


----------



## kaipa

Ah yes. I thought that was what they meant. Going to be a shock for many expats who seem to think they can go to the beaches next week


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> Thanks but that just tells me about the various restrictions for phase 1. I want to find out if my area in Valencia will move to phase 2 on Monday


 Ahh, ok


----------



## Overandout

In any case, there has not been any announcement yet about the provinces that have applied to change phase on Monday. The decisions will be made on Friday (supposedly, and probably delayed until Saturday or Sunday).

But as correctly stated by XX, Valencia is the only CA which want the whole CA to move phases at once. Good idea IMHO, less confusion and easier to police.


----------



## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> Woke up from a nightmare...
> I was in a shopping centre, very few people. Then I suddenly realised it was the first day that they were open (why was I there??!)
> 
> 10:00, the lights started to come on in the shops and the place filled up. Suddenly there were people everywhere, brushing past one another, and no one was wearing a mask, including me, like in the good old days! Suddenly I was standing at the counter in a bar and a boy was coughing all over me. He apologised and said "I'm sorry, it's just that this cough is so dry!"
> I woke up...
> Have realised that going into crowded places is going to be a nightmare!!


I was reading yesterday about something called "post-lockdown anxiety". It is affecting quite a lot of people who have become used to staying in their safe haven and are having irrational fears about leaving it. I felt it when we were first allowed to go for walks, it was a few days before I persuaded myself to do it even though I can easily walk round the outskirts of the village without meeting anyone. Now I am giving myself excuses not to meet up with friends.

I haven't had any nightmares though, so I guess the irrationality is in my conscious thought processes rather than the subconscious.


----------



## Simon22

Alcalaina said:


> I was reading yesterday about something called "post-lockdown anxiety". It is affecting quite a lot of people who have become used to staying in their safe haven and are having irrational fears about leaving it. I felt it when we were first allowed to go for walks, it was a few days before I persuaded myself to do it even though I can easily walk round the outskirts of the village without meeting anyone. Now I am giving myself excuses not to meet up with friends.
> 
> I haven't had any nightmares though, so I guess the irrationality is in my conscious thought processes rather than the subconscious.


I just don't trust other people to do the right thing, I am happy at home where I am safe until people get used to doing it the right way. Walking past bars where people are migrating from one table to another and not a mask in sight.


----------



## Overandout

Straying a bit off topic, but I've always wondered when a fear is irrational or not.

For example, a fear of a money spider to me is a clear example of irrational fear. It clearly can't hurt a human being, there is no rationale.

But I have heard the fear of flying described as irrational... really? is being afraid of travelling in a metal tube fuelled by explosive liquid doing 400km/h, 11kms from the ground really irrational?

Having some apprehension about going out into a potentially infected society where people refuse to wear masks, refuse to keep a safe distance and think that the economy is more important than keeping people alive, for me, is not irrational.


----------



## Alcalaina

Overandout said:


> Straying a bit off topic, but I've always wondered when a fear is irrational or not.
> 
> For example, a fear of a money spider to me is a clear example of irrational fear. It clearly can't hurt a human being, there is no rationale.
> 
> But I have heard the fear of flying described as irrational... really? is being afraid of travelling in a metal tube fuelled by explosive liquid doing 400km/h, 11kms from the ground really irrational?
> 
> Having some apprehension about going out into a potentially infected society where people refuse to wear masks, refuse to keep a safe distance and think that the economy is more important than keeping people alive, for me, is not irrational.


It's an interesting topic. I pride myself on being super-rational, always checking empirical evidence rather than relying on anecdotal advice. I _know_ that the chances of my contracting Covid 19 while going out for a walk, following the social distancing and handwashing rules, are pretty close to zero. My province has an R rate of 0.3, there have been no active cases the village for weeks and the population density is very low. But still I get mild feelings of anxiety before leaving the house. I can't imagine what agoraphobics must feel all the time!


----------



## baldilocks

I'm still, more or less, following Phase 0. I only take a very short walk for the benefit of the dogs than for myself. I see a few people, all masked and all keeping their distance. The only other person I see is the suegra's carer who comes at 6.30 pm to toilet her and she is always masked, gloved and at a distance. I don't have a fear ( rational or irrational) of catching the virus, I just take sensible precautions. The cardio thinks I might have already had it (and survived) but, if I catch it, and I die, so what? I shall be 80 next year so I've had a fair run for my money and outlived all the other males in my recent family history except my maternal grandfather who clocked 80y and 3 mo.


----------



## 95995

Alcalaina said:


> It's an interesting topic. I pride myself on being super-rational, always checking empirical evidence rather than relying on anecdotal advice. I _know_ that the chances of my contracting Covid 19 while going out for a walk, following the social distancing and handwashing rules, are pretty close to zero. My province has an R rate of 0.3, there have been no active cases the village for weeks and the population density is very low. But still I get mild feelings of anxiety before leaving the house. I can't imagine what agoraphobics must feel all the time!


I think it is a result, too, of all the overload information about the spread of the virus, deaths etc. I know that I have been unusually anxious since they relaxed restrictions here in France, even though I am in a low virus area and region. It's a public holiday here today, which many people extend into a long weekend, the weather is great, but we are not really a tourist destination and many people here have taken the opportunity to go to the coast or the mountains, so it is easier going outside today. We don't need to wear masks in the open air when social distancing, and the latter is easy today so it has been very pleasant going out to walk my dog, and without the horrendous paperwork, long walks for as long as we like  It has to be said, of course, that our lockdown has not been as harsh as that in Spain, except for the need to complete new paperwork every time you ventured outside.

I am still a fanatic about all the handwashing, dealing with my shopping when I bring it home (much of it has to be left for 4 days to be on the safe side, either that or you go through a mountain of disinfectant which isn't always easy to get here), and as yet I have been unable to obtain hand sanitiser, though it is readily available in many areas of France.


----------



## Lynn R

The only time I've felt any anxiety about being out since the restrictions began to be eased was the other evening when people were not observing social distancing at the bar, and we just got out of there asap. I've been seeing press reports about a lot of similar problems happening in the Pedregalejo area just outside Málaga capital where the paseo marítimo has got very crowded, people have been fined for sitting close together on the beachside walls waiting for tables to become free, and there was even a mass brawl on Tuesday night. I won't set out to go anywhere I suspect will be crowded.

Had a good morning tied in with my hospital appointment today. Went all the way to Torre del Mar on the bus to visit a shop there, had a sandwich and a coffee at a quiet café, walked most of the way along the paseo maritimo where there were many fewer people than along the main street (and a Policia Nacional car passed inches away from me, driving slowly along the Paseo, so they had no problem with me being there) on the way to the hospital. After my appointment I would have had to wait 25 minutes for the bus back so decided to walk all 4.5km of the way instead, didn't pass anyone at all until I got into the town and even then it was quiet. So I only wore my mask on the bus, when I went into a shop, and in the hospital, not whilst I was walking around. 

The local buses now have laminated signs on a proportion of the seats saying "this seat must not be used" to reinforce social distancing.

By the way, Overandout, I followed your tip about smearing the lenses of my sunglasses with soap then polishing it off to stop the lenses misting up when wearing the mask, and it worked really well so thank you very much for that.


----------



## Alcalaina

Lynn R said:


> By the way, Overandout, I followed your tip about smearing the lenses of my sunglasses with soap then polishing it off to stop the lenses misting up when wearing the mask, and it worked really well so thank you very much for that.


I'll second that! I used a tiny drop of washing-up liquid rather than soap, but it does the same thing.


----------



## 95995

I wonder when our cafés, bars and restaurants will open. But this is the thing here, what is allowed and what isn't is all over the place, not so much by zone, but what is OK and what isn't really doesn't make much sense. For example, which beaches are open and what you can do on them (even in some cases the same beach that traverses several communes, is the 'great outdoors' good or extremely dangerous? How come it's OK to take the metro and RER in Paris, but you can't go to a park? Really, which behaviours are dangerous/risky to you and others, and which aren't? Actually, they are changing the restrictions all the time.

BTW, it is likely that Paris and all of the Île de France will become a green zone any day. That wpuld just leave the Grand Est as a red zone. The Grand Est, of course has been neglected all along, but heck France has to be Paris centric 

I do get anxious though, for a couple of days early this week (when I wasn't feeling particularly well, my nose was streaming and, most unusual for someone who has always been an insomniac, I seemed to be sleeping almost all the time, certainly more than I was awake (or rather half awake). Not a nightmare, just anxiety and I am not usually an anxious person.


----------



## Overandout

EverHopeful said:


> I wonder when our cafés, bars and restaurants will open. But this is the thing here, what is allowed and what isn't is all over the place, not so much by zone, but what is OK and what isn't really doesn't make much sense. For example, which beaches are open and what you can do on them (even in some cases the same beach that traverses several communes, is the 'great outdoors' good or extremely dangerous? How come it's OK to take the metro and RER in Paris, but you can't go to a park? Really, which behaviours are dangerous/risky to you and others, and which aren't? Actually, they are changing the restrictions all the time.
> 
> BTW, it is likely that Paris and all of the Île de France will become a green zone any day. That wpuld just leave the Grand Est as a red zone. The Grand Est, of course has been neglected all along, but heck France has to be Paris centric
> 
> I do get anxious though, for a couple of days early this week (when I wasn't feeling particularly well, my nose was streaming and, most unusual for someone who has always been an insomniac, I seemed to be sleeping almost all the time, certainly more than I was awake (or rather half awake). Not a nightmare, just anxiety and I am not usually an anxious person.


Don't look for logic in any country's rules! Pointing out stupid (or seemingly stupid) things has become a good pass-time during these times!

I love that four of us have been locked up in a small(ish) apartment for over two months together, but we still are not allowed to leave it together! :confused2:


----------



## 95995

Overandout said:


> Don't look for logic in any country's rules! Pointing out stupid (or seemingly stupid) things has become a good pass-time during these times!
> 
> I love that four of us have been locked up in a small(ish) apartment for over two months together, but we still are not allowed to leave it together! :confused2:


But in France we have totally different government systems, and a human rights league that works actively to counter certain things, especially after what is called here déconfinement. This is most certainly not a country where people just accepts the rules, they take it up with the constitutional rights authority and win! Such as no enforced quarantine post lockdown - that does not comply. Though it has to be said that sometimes/often that (currently) suits the far right.


----------



## 95995

EverHopeful said:


> But in France we have totally different government systems, and a human rights league that works actively to counter certain things, especially after what is called here déconfinement. This is most certainly not a country where people just accepts the rules, they take it up with the constitutional rights authority and win! Such as no enforced quarantine post lockdown - that does not comply. Though it has to be said that sometimes/often that (currently) suits the far right.


But Overandout you are absolutely right - double messages are totally confusing (and crazy).


----------



## Pesky Wesky

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-52627004/coronavirus-spanish-family-reunited-after-two-months-apart?intlink_from_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Ftopics%2Fc302m85qenvt%2Fspain&link_location=live-reporting-map
Spanish family reunited after lockdown


----------



## xabiaxica

Unfortunately we're seeing a lot of people saying that surely they don't need to wear a mask if they're just going for a walk, or that they won't wear one. 

Obviously in some areas, not wearing one would be possible, but in most towns & villages there's bound to be a good chance of coming close to other people - & of course you can no longer enter a shop without one. So to not have a mask at least at the ready would be ill-advised. 

Some will be in for a rude & expensive awakening.


My daughter was out shopping yesterday & was pretty much jostled by a group of adults, none of whom were wearing masks, as they passed her on the narrow pavement

Some Guardia in a car happened to be passing. One got out to speak to the group & in the meantime my daughter had caught up with them & being an inquisitive soul  she slowed to listen to what was being said. 

The officer made it clear them that they must wear masks & that where possible must try to maintain a 2m distance. 

They were also told that they were lucky that it was the first day of the new rules - because they would have been fined - all of them individually - if it hadn't been.


----------



## mrypg9

Friends have been telling me they have been stopped and questioned by plain clothes police in unmarked cars, nearly always by female officers - if that's what they are.

Has anyone else heard of this?


----------



## kaipa

mrypg9 said:


> Friends have been telling me they have been stopped and questioned by plain clothes police in unmarked cars, nearly always by female officers - if that's what they are.
> 
> Has anyone else heard of this?



If they are plain- clothed in unmarked cars how do they know they are police?


----------



## baldilocks

Always check the registration of "police" cars. If the are Guardia Civil the registration should begin PGC, if they are Policía Nacionale, the regs should start with CPN. If they are just normal registration numbers, beware!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> Friends have been telling me they have been stopped and questioned by plain clothes police in unmarked cars, nearly always by female officers - if that's what they are.
> 
> Has anyone else heard of this?


Asked about what?


----------



## 95995

baldilocks said:


> Always check the registration of "police" cars. If the are Guardia Civil the registration should begin PGC, if they are Policía Nacionale, the regs should start with CPN. If they are just normal registration numbers, beware!


Are you saying that there are no plain clothes Police in Spain who use unmarked cars that do not have those rego nos, not even to fight organised crime and smuggling? There used to be and, of course, it is not impossible that some could be diverted to other duties.


----------



## Alcalaina

EverHopeful said:


> Are you saying that there are no plain clothes Police in Spain who use unmarked cars that do not have those rego nos, not even to fight organised crime and smuggling? There used to be and, of course, it is not impossible that some could be diverted to other duties.


I assume that because this has been posted on a thread about lockdown, they aren't investigating organised crime. It sounds highly dodgy to me!


----------



## 95995

Alcalaina said:


> I assume that because this has been posted on a thread about lockdown, they aren't investigating organised crime. It sounds highly dodgy to me!


It could indeed be dodgy, but it might not be. Certain police who normally perform other duties might possibly have been given other duties that might include policing Covid-19 requirements. That is my point. Of course, we don't know and indeed could not know based on the scant information provided.


----------



## Lynn R

From Monday, whole families will be able to go out together to take a walk or exercise (both parents accompanied by however many children they have, no longer limited to one parent accompanying a maximum of three children) and this will apply to the whole country, whether areas are in Phase 1 or Phase 2.

https://www.elmundo.es/espana/2020/05/23/5ec8f433fdddff57778b45c8.html


----------



## angkag

kaipa said:


> If they are plain- clothed in unmarked cars how do they know they are police?


Did they say they were officers of the 'Leu' ? (or is that France)


----------



## 95995

angkag said:


> Did they say they were officers of the 'Leu' ? (*or is that France*)


I have no idea what officers of the 'Leu' is.


----------



## Juan C

I know in fuengirola, and thus probably all other town, round 50% of the national police work in plain and use an array of unmarked vehicles which do not have ‘police registration numbers.’ 

I do not know, but would expect that applies to guardia civil too.

As in U.K. some of those vehicles are never parked at or even close to police stations so as to maintain their anonymity. 

Of course all police officers carry their identity badge. If you are stopped and are in doubt ask to see their badge.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

If plain clothes police are now performing other duties I would have thought that they would have been taught that the first thing they do is identify themselves. 

I would be intimidated if someone stopped me and were not in uniform, and might not ask them to identify themselves, but I might then go to a police station to ask them about the incident. However, more info is needed on this story. If people are being stopped by fraudsters, what are they getting out of it? Why are they stopping people by posing as police officers?


----------



## Lynn R

Pesky Wesky said:


> If plain clothes police are now performing other duties I would have thought that they would have been taught that the first thing they do is identify themselves.
> 
> I would be intimidated if someone stopped me and were not in uniform, and might not ask them to identify themselves, but I might then go to a police station to ask them about the incident. However, more info is needed on this story. If people are being stopped by fraudsters, what are they getting out of it? Why are they stopping people by posing as police officers?


A few months ago, we were walking home with our shopping around midday when we noticed a young man running along the on her side of the street. Then a car came down the street at high speed, and slammed the brakes on and a man in plain clothes jumped out and shouted at the young man to stop, and drew a handgun and pointed it at him. He definitely identified himself as police and pulled his ID on a lanyard out from under his jacket with the hand that wasn't holding the gun. More plain clothes police arrived within seconds in another vehicle. No idea what the registration plates on the vehicles said, we didn't take notice. 

I would have thought it highly unlikely that police on plain clothes duty would drive around in vehicles with number plates clearly identifying them as police (or Guardia Civil) as that might just give the criminals a teeny tiny clue about who they are.


----------



## Williams2

*Is there a list of items that are excluded from sale during the lockdowns ?*

Who decides what retail items are partitioned off in stores and whether those items that are 'taped off'
or excluded from sale or purchase in Supermarkets and other stores, like for example electrical goods
retailer Mediamarkt; are following detailed government guidelines or whether it's a case that 
the store is acting on guidelines determined by their own head office and not government during the
pandemic due to supply & delivery constraints during the initial phase of lockdown ?

As I can fully understand the need to exclude all but 'essential items' for sale during the initial phase
of the lockdowns but as we move to fase 1 and now fase 2 of the lockdowns - the question of why
certain items for sale also come out of lockdown while others remain excluded from purchase arises.

Naturally I appreciate that many items that have been excluded from sale in stores have been
readily available for sale & home delivery over the internet.

Therefore can someone post a list of those items or goods that are excluded from purchase from
Supermarkets and stores ( if there is one ? ) during fase 1 and fase 2, please.


----------



## baldilocks

Alcalaina said:


> I assume that because this has been posted on a thread about lockdown, they aren't investigating organised crime. It sounds highly dodgy to me!


The thought crosses my mind that they might be "fining" people who are not obeying the rules of lockdown.


----------



## baldilocks

EverHopeful said:


> I have no idea what officers of the 'Leu' is.


You really do need to get out more. Inspector Clouseau is being referred to.


----------



## 95995

baldilocks said:


> You really do need to get out more. Inspector Clouseau is being referred to.


I don't think his out and about on the streets these days. Perhaps I'm not as stuck in the past as some others.


----------



## Alcalaina

Williams2 said:


> *Is there a list of items that are excluded from sale during the lockdowns ?*
> 
> Who decides what retail items are partitioned off in stores and whether those items that are 'taped off'
> or excluded from sale or purchase in Supermarkets and other stores, like for example electrical goods
> retailer Mediamarkt; are following detailed government guidelines or whether it's a case that
> the store is acting on guidelines determined by their own head office and not government during the
> pandemic due to supply & delivery constraints during the initial phase of lockdown ?
> 
> As I can fully understand the need to exclude all but 'essential items' for sale during the initial phase
> of the lockdowns but as we move to fase 1 and now fase 2 of the lockdowns - the question of why
> certain items for sale also come out of lockdown while others remain excluded from purchase arises.
> 
> Naturally I appreciate that many items that have been excluded from sale in stores have been
> readily available for sale & home delivery over the internet.
> 
> Therefore can someone post a list of those items or goods that are excluded from purchase from
> Supermarkets and stores ( if there is one ? ) during fase 1 and fase 2, please.


Shops could only sell goods that are considered necessary for basic survival (productos de primera necesidad). There's a list here.

https://www.diariosur.es/nacional/listado-productos-primera-20200407023120-nt.html


----------



## Williams2

Alcalaina said:


> Shops could only sell goods that are considered necessary for basic survival (productos de primera necesidad). There's a list here.
> 
> https://www.diariosur.es/nacional/listado-productos-primera-20200407023120-nt.html


Thanks for that but that only covers the list of items deemed necessary and essential in fase 0 (zero ) or the
initial lockdown phase; obviously many of us have moved on since fase 0 and for many parts of Spain,
we enter fase 2 on Monday. Naturally as many businesses like the hairdressers and barbers opened
up in fase 1, I assume the same is true for items that you can now buy 'over the counter' has opened
up too.

As I still encounter items 'taped off' or excluded from sale when visiting Shops, Stores & Supermarkets in
fase 1, I wonder what items will become available for sale in fase 2 or more to the point, what items will
continue to be excluded ( from sale or purchase ) in fase 2, that one shouldn't even bother looking
for in fase 2 ?


----------



## Alcalaina

Williams2 said:


> Thanks for that but that only covers the list of items deemed necessary and essential in fase 0 (zero ) or the initial lockdown phase; obviously many of us have moved on since fase 0 and for many parts of Spain,
> we enter fase 2 on Monday. Naturally as many businesses like the hairdressers and barbers opened up in fase 1, I assume the same is true for items that you can now buy 'over the counter' has opened up too.
> 
> As I still encounter items 'taped off' or excluded from sale when visiting Shops, Stores & Supermarkets in fase 1, I wonder what items will become available for sale in fase 2 or more to the point, what items will continue to be excluded ( from sale or purchase ) in fase 2, that one shouldn't even bother looking for in fase 2 ?


Why don't you just ask them? I assume that since all shops over 400m2 can open in phase 2 (at 40% capacity) they won't be taping off any areas, though I haven't actually been anywhere where they've done that. Our Mercadona has been selling the full range of goods since entering Phase 1.


----------



## Williams2

Alcalaina said:


> Why don't you just ask them? I assume that since all shops over 400m2 can open in phase 2 (at 40% capacity) they won't be taping off any areas, though I haven't actually been anywhere where they've done that. Our Mercadona has been selling the full range of goods since entering Phase 1.


Yes that's what I've been hearing as well that a number of stores and supermarkets, removed their
'taped off areas' in fase 1 - like your Mercadona example and yet here in Asturias, the 
'taped off areas' or items 'out of bounds' for purchase remain in place.

Which makes me wonder whether it's something decided at regional level or their interpretation
of fase 1 ?


----------



## 95995

Alcalaina said:


> Why don't you just ask them? I assume that since all shops over 400m2 can open in phase 2 (at 40% capacity) they won't be taping off any areas, though I haven't actually been anywhere where they've done that. Our Mercadona has been selling the full range of goods since entering Phase 1.


It could though depend on the extent to which they think people can safely circulate within the shop, or the extent to which they think they can control that, or concerns about safety of their own staff, or etc. etc.


----------



## Lynn R

Alcalaina said:


> Why don't you just ask them? I assume that since all shops over 400m2 can open in phase 2 (at 40% capacity) they won't be taping off any areas, though I haven't actually been anywhere where they've done that. Our Mercadona has been selling the full range of goods since entering Phase 1.


The Mercadona branches in my town didn't have any areas taped off even in Phase 0.

Also, some shops re-opened on 11 May which I didn't think would be allowed to until we were authorised to progress to Phase 1. Primor, the store which sells cosmetics, perfume, skincare etc. was one of them, and I also saw lencerias and florist shops open from that date, although we weren't in Phase 1 until 18 May.

One of the larger Chinese-owned bazaar shops, though, still has the area selling clothes and accessories taped off although shops selling clothes and shoes have been open since 18 May.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> The Mercadona branches in my town didn't have any areas taped off even in Phase 0.
> 
> Also, some shops re-opened on 11 May which I didn't think would be allowed to until we were authorised to progress to Phase 1. Primor, the store which sells cosmetics, perfume, skincare etc. was one of them, and I also saw lencerias and florist shops open from that date, although we weren't in Phase 1 until 18 May.
> 
> One of the larger Chinese-owned bazaar shops, though, still has the area selling clothes and accessories taped off although shops selling clothes and shoes have been open since 18 May.


Yes, it's difficult to get it all sorted out. A big Carrefour near me had everything except food and toiletries taped off, then stationery and electronics were opened. I went into Marypaz website yesterday (shoe shop) and their website said they were completely closed down since the beginning with no sales online either, yet other shoe shops have been selling online all the time...? Maybe internal problems


----------



## Williams2

Lynn R said:


> One of the larger Chinese-owned bazaar shops, though, still has the area selling clothes and accessories taped off although shops selling clothes and shoes have been open since 18 May.


Yes I see the same here in Oviedo with the Chinese bazaar shops taping off the clothes section
while the rest of the shop is available.
As for the other clothes shops, I assume that shopkeepers would 'have a fit' if customers want to
'try the clothes on first' before buying it with the changing room areas closed off.


----------



## xgarb

Leroy Merlin here (Fase 1) is like an Argos. You can buy anything but you have to order online and collect or ask at the counter and they go and collect it from the shelves.


----------



## Lynn R

When I went to buy something in Primor, I could not go and browse and pick up what I wanted - an assistant had to accompany me so I could show her what I wanted and she then took it to the cash desk for me.


----------



## Alcalaina

xgarb said:


> Leroy Merlin here (Fase 1) is like an Argos. You can buy anything but you have to order online and collect or ask at the counter and they go and collect it from the shelves.


Wish they'd continue that service indefinitely!


----------



## TanGem

It's going to be interesting how you will be able to buy shoes in the future, having broad feet I always have to try them on.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

L&M is open, the whole shop in Las Rozas Madrid.
We went yesterday and thankfully didn't have to go in the main shop as there was a long queue (well long anyway as everyone was 2m apart). We wanted garden furniture and this was in another section apart from the main shop with no queues.


----------



## Alcalaina

TanGem said:


> It's going to be interesting how you will be able to buy shoes in the future, having broad feet I always have to try them on.


I guess they will use those very thin plastic bags that you put over your foot before trying them on. Then a quick spray of disinfectant and back in the store cupboard for three days till there's no possible trace of virus left.

Fortunately I stocked up in the UK last October (Spanish women's sizes are way too small for me!) so I don't need to buy any more for a while.


----------



## Williams2

Well so far so good & happy to be wearing my Fase 2 badge in Asturias this week.


----------



## Overandout

xgarb said:


> Leroy Merlin here (Fase 1) is like an Argos. You can buy anything but you have to order online and collect or ask at the counter and they go and collect it from the shelves.




That's fine if you know exactly what you want, but if you are browsing for silicone for example, you might want to see which is more mold resistant, has more adhesive properties, is the best colour match for wood etc... 

I like browsing in hardware stores!!! Please don't take that from me!!!


----------



## Alcalaina

Overandout said:


> I like browsing in hardware stores!!! Please don't take that from me!!!


My husband can happily spend an hour looking for the riight sort of screws. But if I spend more than thirty seconds deciding on a pair of earrings ...


----------



## MataMata

TanGem said:


> It's going to be interesting how you will be able to buy shoes in the future, having broad feet I always have to try them on.


I wear Birkenstock sandals year round, I only possess one pair of shoes and can't remember last time I wore them, it will be measured in years though!


----------



## TanGem

Thank you but I think I'll pass. More of a trainer person for leisure


----------



## baldilocks

always proper shoes for me. The last time my feet were inspected (I am diabetic) they couldn't believe that I am almost 80 but with the feet of a 20 year-old


----------



## Overandout

Alcalaina said:


> My husband can happily spend an hour looking for the riight sort of screws.  But if I spend more than thirty seconds deciding on a pair of earrings ...


The lesson for both to learn from that is that husbands should not accompany wives when they shop for earrings and wives should not accompany husbands when they shop for nuts and bolts!

But don't get me wrong, it's not a sexist thing, my wife refuses to accompany me when I shop for shoes. I'm a bit of a shoe hoarder... I've got more pairs than she has!!


----------



## Yorick

We live in Lanzarote, and currently in phase 2. But I still can't find out if it's OK to take pals in my car ???

Any knowledge ?

Ta


----------



## Alcalaina

Yorick said:


> We live in Lanzarote, and currently in phase 2. But I still can't find out if it's OK to take pals in my car ???
> 
> Any knowledge ?
> 
> Ta


Yes but not in the passenger seat and no more than two in the back seat, and you all have to wear masks. If you live in the same household these restrictions don't apply.


----------



## baldilocks

Overandout said:


> The lesson for both to learn from that is that husbands should not accompany wives when they shop for earrings and wives should not accompany husbands when they shop for nuts and bolts!
> 
> But don't get me wrong, it's not a sexist thing, my wife refuses to accompany me when I shop for shoes. I'm a bit of a shoe hoarder... I've got more pairs than she has!!


But if it is the husband who is going to pay for the earrings...?


----------



## 95995

baldilocks said:


> But if it is the husband who is going to pay for the earrings...?


WTF, what era are you living in? And if it is the wife who is going to pay for nuts and bolts?


----------



## xgarb

Overandout said:


> That's fine if you know exactly what you want, but if you are browsing for silicone for example, you might want to see which is more mold resistant, has more adhesive properties, is the best colour match for wood etc...
> 
> I like browsing in hardware stores!!! Please don't take that from me!!!


Leroy Merlin website is one of the worst as well. They should offer a 'browse items in stock locally' option so you can search silicone for example and see what is available and then be able to see all the technical information possible. They do sometimes have a photograph of the label.


----------



## Alcalaina

baldilocks said:


> But if it is the husband who is going to pay for the earrings...?


Not applicable, we have a joint account.


----------



## baldilocks

EverHopeful said:


> WTF, what era are you living in? And if it is the wife who is going to pay for nuts and bolts?


I am currently awaiting delivery of four bottles of perfume for SWMBO's birthday in September. I am also the one who shops for her underwear, after I took her to a specialist Bra shop because the ones she had been/was buying when we met over 30 years ago would de-wire and cause injury (they were the wrong sizes and fit.)


----------



## baldilocks

Alcalaina said:


> Not applicable, we have a joint account.


We have a joint Spanish account but in UK my pensions go into a seperate account, SWMBO also has her own account in UK (pays for her continuing NI contributions towards her pension) and it is my account that pays for holidays and orders from British Corner Shop, et al.


----------



## xabiaxica

ahem... :focus:


----------



## Williams2

Just FYI - as many of you will no doubt be venturing out to Restaurants and Takeaway
shops in Spain as the lockdown eases & will probably encounter the EuroLab Covid-19 
Safety certificates displayed, concerning the hygiene and food safety standards of the 
establishment during the Pandemic.

The certificates I've seen in Asturias are issued by EuroLab and this might well be true in
other regions of Spain as well.
Apparently EuroLab are big in both the UK & Spain as regards hygiene and food safety
and are based in Gijon & as their website says:
euroLAB is a company formed by personnel from the health sector specialized in Quality
Control and Sanitary and Food Safety with more than 16 years of experience in Spain
and the United Kingdom. Our staff is made up of a multidisciplinary team of University
Graduates in Veterinary Medicine, Biology and Industrial Engineering.

euroLab Spain


----------



## baldilocks

Williams2 said:


> Just FYI - as many of you will no doubt be venturing out to Restaurants and Takeaway
> shops in Spain as the lockdown eases & will probably encounter the EuroLab Covid-19
> Safety certificates displayed, concerning the hygiene and food safety standards of the
> establishment during the Pandemic.
> 
> The certificates I've seen in Asturias are issued by EuroLab and this might well be true in
> other regions of Spain as well.
> Apparently EuroLab are big in both the UK & Spain as regards hygiene and food safety
> and are based in Gijon & as their website says:
> euroLAB is a company formed by personnel from the health sector specialized in Quality
> Control and Sanitary and Food Safety with more than 16 years of experience in Spain
> and the United Kingdom. Our staff is made up of a multidisciplinary team of University
> Graduates in Veterinary Medicine, Biology and Industrial Engineering.
> 
> euroLab Spain


So, do they only do Labradors or do they do Heinzers as well.


----------



## xabiaxica

Well done Jávea / Xàbia!
To date 20 cases of covid19, none in the past 14 days. 
2 lives lost.
Putting these figures into perspective, with a population of a bit over 27.000, that means that fewer than 0.0074 per 100 residents are known to have contracted the virus, with a death rate of lower than 0.00074 per 100 residents.


----------



## Lynn R

We managed to get to Nerja today, by public transport, although we had to change buses in Torre del Mar as the normal services from Vélez to Nerja are not running yet. To my surprise the bus from Torre was the Sevilla-Almeria service, which passes through Sevilla, Huelva, Malaga, Granada and Almeria provinces on the length of its route. I didn't think inter-province travel was allowed yet, but perhaps the service is provided for people who have to make essential journeys? There were certainly lots of people still on the bus after we got off in Nerja.

We bought our tickets online as I didn't think payments in cash were being allowed, and the Alsa ticket offices are all closed. However, once people with tickets on their smartphones had been allowed to board in Torre the driver did take cash from a few passengers who hadn't bought tickets in advance. That caused a kerfuffle when a young couple with a baby were allowed on but the elderly British man next in line was told no. He kept shouting "that's not fair, it's not fair" at the driver who shouted back "completo, completo" several times before shutting the doors and driving off leaving the man still shouting and gesticulating on the pavement. So if anyone does want to travel anywhere by Alsa bus, make sure you get your tickets in advance to be on the safe side!

The streets of Nerja were extremely quiet, I don't think I've ever seen it so empty even in the middle of winter. When we got back to Vélez it seemed like a bustling metropolis by comparison, and those bars and cafés which are open here definitely have more trade than the Nerja ones. When things are opened up for inter-province travel I hope things pick up for the sake of those running businesses and working there. It was nice to have a meal out - in an actual restaurant! - for the first time since the lockdown started.

I also had confirmation by email from the Leisure Department of our local Council that the validity of my annual pass for the swimming pool will be extended to compensate for not being able to use it during the pandemic restrictions. They couldn't tell me when the pool will reopen but perhaps now we know we will be in Phase 3 from next Monday, that will speed things up.


----------



## Alcalaina

Glad you were able to get out and about Lynn. Apart from a quick trip to the coast last Saturday morning (hardly anyone around) I haven’t left the village for three months. The last remaining bars are reopening tonight, which is a step closer to normal life. People here seem pretty relaxed, very little social distancing now but no besos or abrazos, just the occasional wagged elbow.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> We managed to get to Nerja today, by public transport, although we had to change buses in Torre del Mar as the normal services from Vélez to Nerja are not running yet. To my surprise the bus from Torre was the Sevilla-Almeria service, which passes through Sevilla, Huelva, Malaga, Granada and Almeria provinces on the length of its route. I didn't think inter-province travel was allowed yet, but perhaps the service is provided for people who have to make essential journeys? There were certainly lots of people still on the bus after we got off in Nerja.
> 
> We bought our tickets online as I didn't think payments in cash were being allowed, and the Alsa ticket offices are all closed. However, once people with tickets on their smartphones had been allowed to board in Torre the driver did take cash from a few passengers who hadn't bought tickets in advance. That caused a kerfuffle when a young couple with a baby were allowed on but the elderly British man next in line was told no. He kept shouting "that's not fair, it's not fair" at the driver who shouted back "completo, completo" several times before shutting the doors and driving off leaving the man still shouting and gesticulating on the pavement. So if anyone does want to travel anywhere by Alsa bus, make sure you get your tickets in advance to be on the safe side!
> 
> The streets of Nerja were extremely quiet, I don't think I've ever seen it so empty even in the middle of winter. When we got back to Vélez it seemed like a bustling metropolis by comparison, and those bars and cafés which are open here definitely have more trade than the Nerja ones. When things are opened up for inter-province travel I hope things pick up for the sake of those running businesses and working there. It was nice to have a meal out - in an actual restaurant! - for the first time since the lockdown started.
> 
> I also had confirmation by email from the Leisure Department of our local Council that the validity of my annual pass for the swimming pool will be extended to compensate for not being able to use it during the pandemic restrictions. They couldn't tell me when the pool will reopen but perhaps now we know we will be in Phase 3 from next Monday, that will speed things up.


 How exciting!!
Life hasn't changed too much here. We are in Phase 1 and have been to a terraza twice, 2 different ones. In the first one we were the only people on a very big terraza, (they were just opening up) and the second one, we are very lucky to have near, is also very big, large number of people, but plenty of space, quiet and relaxing with a beautiful view.
Today we are going to have our first reunion with friends, so there will be 5 of us, all foreign except Spanish OH. We have gone over "protocol", so hopefully everything will go smoothly (no masks, no need to take off shoes, wash hands, no hugs/ kisses, distancing to a certain extent, separate bowls of hummus etc, etc). Have also been to the local shops once.


Next Monday we go into phase 2 I think. TBH I'm not really waiting for each phase anxiously. The biggie was being able to go out or not. Now I have my routine of early morning run/ walk, work, lunch, work and potter, family time of a game or serial in the evening and I like it more than before! More relaxed, more family time, less stress 

Going to Madrid will be a biggie, and going on public transport too


----------



## angkag

I guess in terms of Lockdown experiences, being a fan of good singing of whatever genre, I spent a lot of time listening back to of great vocal performances; Pavarotti, Steel Heart, Callas, Aerosmith, Tom Jones, loooong long list.

Then I got to someone called Jane Zhang singing All of Me on a Chinese talent show (highly recommended), and curious to see what else she had done, took a look at her trying to sing the Diva Dance. Someone in the comments said 'not as good as Dimash', so figured lets take a look at this person too.

So I listened to him singing a song called SOS in something called the Slavic Bazaar (easily found on youtune with 'Dimash SOS Slavic Bazaar'. This is he point I got what is called 'Dimashified', which is loosely described as a sense of astonishment and disbelief at what one is hearing - he's that good !

So anyway. That's my best lockdown experience - getting Dimashified.

(if wanting to try it out. Go SOS slavic Bazzare, then Sinful Passion, then Ogni Pietra, then Opera 2. If you know of a better singer, please let me know)


----------



## Alcalaina

angkag said:


> So anyway. That's my best lockdown experience - getting Dimashified.
> 
> (if wanting to try it out. Go SOS slavic Bazzare, then Sinful Passion, then Ogni Pietra, then Opera 2. If you know of a better singer, please let me know)


No sooner said than ... Not my cup of tea, way too dramatic, but certainly different!


----------



## angkag

Alcalaina said:


> No sooner said than ... Not my cup of tea, way too dramatic, but certainly different!
> 
> Oddly, the music isn't my cup of tea either, give me John Denver any day, but its the technical side I can't get over: the 6 octave range, effortlesss transitions between ranges, head and chest voices at full belt or soft, the 23 second run he did at full belt (ie one breath), rock or operatic, tenor or soprano with or without staccato. Throw in the slavic echoing he did in sinful passion and he's a bit like a vocal circus act. eg he hit a D8 note in one outing (which is off the piano scale), which is only pleasant to hear if a dog or a dolphin (and not sure about the dog), but he just did it to show he could. Then Opera 2 - he went 2 notes higher than Vitas, again, just to show he could. Only thing he couldn't do with technical perfection was the Diva Dance, which fair enough given it was written for aliens with two sets of vocal chords (movie 5th element).


----------



## Williams2

Well I still feel like - The Prisoner - despite entering Phase 3.


----------



## Juan C

I am 80 so concerned. I have just been to local shop. Face mask and surgical mask. First time out on about 10 days 

I am not too bothered about being confined. I am fortunate having a big terrace, ever I walk about 2.5 miles every morning.


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## xabiaxica

Since the main lockdown is pretty much over, I've started a new thread & I'm closing this one. 

https://www.expatforum.com/expats/s...pain/1502404-covid19-de-escalation-spain.html

Let's hope we don't need one like this again!

:closed_2:


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