# Living in Johor Bahru



## aliaman12

Hello,

I have a question,

I am Singapore EP holder. In regards to this please let me know if as a foreigner with Singapore EP I could live in JB area in Malaysia.

Best regards,

Syed


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## kmt

aliaman12 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have a question,
> 
> I am Singapore EP holder. In regards to this please let me know if as a foreigner with Singapore EP I could live in JB area in Malaysia.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Syed


You want to escape from the high cost of living in singapore i understand ,. i read somewhere some people do that

But it depends on your passport and if malaysia will allow you to rent a house in johor !! , you have to contact the malaysian authorities

but if you have american or EU passport , you can shuttle , but i heard its not advisable to do that

better to ask the malaysia authorities

best of luck
kmt


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## kmt

*medical insurance*



aliaman12 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have a question,
> 
> I am Singapore EP holder. In regards to this please let me know if as a foreigner with Singapore EP I could live in JB area in Malaysia.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Syed


Did you find out . if you can live in johor ? Though seems like malaysia has high crime rate !!


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## simonsays

a caveat: if you have any residency in Singapore, you can only drive a Singapore registered car into Singapore - Cannot drive any Malaysian registered car 

There goes part of the plan of 'saving' cost


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## Mayhem

ecureilx said:


> a caveat: if you have any residency in Singapore, you can only drive a Singapore registered car into Singapore - Cannot drive any Malaysian registered car
> 
> There goes part of the plan of 'saving' cost


Hundreds of workers and school children travel from Johor Bahru to Singapore by bus every morning. Work in Singapore, live in Malaysia.


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## simonsays

Mayhem said:


> Hundreds of workers and school children travel from Johor Bahru to Singapore by bus every morning. Work in Singapore, live in Malaysia.


errr .. the School kids you talk about are Malaysian kids .. if they are in Malaysian Registered card, they are being driven in by Malaysian residents .. 

And for work in Singapore, again, it is only applicable to any Malaysian

Show me one Non-Malaysian, who is holding PR/EP or any form of pass in Singapore, who can drive a Malaysian Registered car INTO Singapore ?? PLEASE !!!!!!!!!

Once you got any form of residency/pass in Singapore, you cannot drive in a Malaysian registered car into Singapore .. 

If not, with COE at 90,000 S$, on top of 60,000 S$ for the cheapest car- vs 40,000 RM for a decent Malaysian Registered car - Singapore will be flooded with Malaysian cars

For Malaysian cars, entering Singapore read the following, in case you are not clear ..

West Malaysian Registered Vehicles, Cars & Motorcycles | Driving In and Out of Singapore | Roads & Motoring | Land Transport Authority

Vehicle Entry Permit (VEP) Fees & Toll Charge | Driving In and Out of Singapore | Roads & Motoring | Land Transport Authority

And from LTA Site !!

Who is allowed to use and keep a foreign-registered vehicle?

*You are not allowed to use or keep any foreign-registered vehicles in Singapore if you are a:*

Singapore Citizen
Singapore Permanent Resident (PR)
Resident of Singapore
Long Term Visit Pass Holder or Dependant Pass Holder
Work Pass Holder who is also a resident of Singapore
Student Pass Holder
Training Employment Pass or Work Holiday Pass


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## simonsays

BBCWatcher: again, if you can drive an el-Cheapo Malaysian car into Singapore, living there sounds fun .. when you realise that option vanished, once you have a Singapore EP/PR/or any residency .. nothing sounds worth it ..


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## wesmant

Take a motorbike!

i let my wife drive my car, and I am on motorbike for almost a year. guess what?! my commuting expenditure with my Vespa is less than $100 (compared to $1k++ with my 1.6L car back then) per month, all in (read: Bike depreciation, insurance, road tax, petrol, and maintenance).

How?


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## jaybee123

_You are not allowed to use or keep any foreign-registered vehicles in Singapore if you are a:

Singapore Citizen
Singapore Permanent Resident (PR)
Resident of Singapore
Long Term Visit Pass Holder or Dependant Pass Holder
Work Pass Holder who is also a resident of Singapore
Student Pass Holder
Training Employment Pass or Work Holiday Pass


*However, any work pass holder, who is not a resident of Singapore, may drive a foreign-registered vehicle in Singapore only if ALL these conditions are met:*

He is the registered owner of the vehicle.
He resides outside Singapore.
He has a valid insurance certificate and road tax to use the vehicle on Singapore roads.
The vehicle is kept or used outside Singapore for a total period of 6 hours or more every day.
The vehicle has an Autopass Card to validate its entry/ exit at Woodlands and Tuas Checkpoints and to pay for VEP/ toll charges._

Thousands of EP/work permit holders drives into S'pore everyday.


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## simonsays

jaybee123 said:


> Thousands of EP/work permit holders drives into S'pore everyday.


Most of the latter and few of the latter do it .. 

So how much does the VEP work out for a year .. ??


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## jaybee123

ecureilx said:


> Most of the latter and few of the latter do it ..
> 
> So how much does the VEP work out for a year .. ??


SGD20 for a working day. Minus off the annual leave and public holiday, at most we work 18 days a year. So that's 19 x 20 x 12 = SGD4,320. 

Much much cheaper than COE.

Oh...each foreign car is entitle for 10 days 'free VEP' each year. So that will be SGD200. As such, the total VEP for a year is SGD4,120.


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## jaybee123

aliaman12 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have a question,
> 
> I am Singapore EP holder. In regards to this please let me know if as a foreigner with Singapore EP I could live in JB area in Malaysia.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Syed


Apply for MACC. This will make it easier for you to go through Malaysia immigration


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## simonsays

jaybee123 said:


> SGD20 for a working day. Minus off the annual leave and public holiday, at most we work 18 days a year. So that's 19 x 20 x 12 = SGD4,320.
> 
> Much much cheaper than COE.
> 
> Oh...each foreign car is entitle for 10 days 'free VEP' each year. So that will be SGD200. As such, the total VEP for a year is SGD4,120.


I see .. so I should find out from my Malaysian colleagues why they drive Singapore cars, instead of MY registered, they are on EP ..  

Not gonna argue, but you are missing some large chunk of expenses adding on there .. find it, if you will ..


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## wesmant

jaybee123 said:


> SGD20 for a working day. Minus off the annual leave and public holiday, at most we work 18 days a year. So that's 19 x 20 x 12 = SGD4,320.
> 
> Much much cheaper than COE.
> 
> Oh...each foreign car is entitle for 10 days 'free VEP' each year. So that will be SGD200. As such, the total VEP for a year is SGD4,120.


quite true with reference to the 70k+ CEO.

but when the CEO goes below 20k, you may get S-plate car too 

PS: you can enjoy the "perks" of driving non- singapore registered car while you are on EP, this is not applicable if you consider getting a PR


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## wesmant

ecureilx said:


> I see .. so I should find out from my Malaysian colleagues why they drive Singapore cars, instead of MY registered, they are on EP ..
> 
> Not gonna argue, but you are missing some large chunk of expenses adding on there .. find it, if you will ..


Your Malaysian colleagues most probably bought the S-reg Cars during the low COE time. in 2008 COE goes as cheap as $2. my old cars reg in Feb 2008 had a 12k COE, which makes $1200 per year, chaeper than 4000+ you counted


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## jaybee123

ecureilx said:


> I see .. so I should find out from my Malaysian colleagues why they drive Singapore cars, instead of MY registered, they are on EP ..
> 
> Not gonna argue, but you are missing some large chunk of expenses adding on there .. find it, if you will ..


I work from home most of the time so VEP is not a big factor for me. And by living outside S'pore, my family expenses is much lower now. But the main thing is that I can now afford cars and properties something that I can't afford when I was staying in Johor.


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## jaybee123

wesmant said:


> Your Malaysian colleagues most probably bought the S-reg Cars during the low COE time. in 2008 COE goes as cheap as $2. my old cars reg in Feb 2008 had a 12k COE, which makes $1200 per year, chaeper than 4000+ you counted


Your M'sian friend could be a PR. It was the 'normal' thing to do...to apply for PR until recently. But the recent batch of M'sian working in S'pore is not too keen to apply for PR unless they intend to buy a HDB.


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## jaybee123

wesmant said:


> quite true with reference to the 70k+ CEO.
> 
> but when the CEO goes below 20k, you may get S-plate car too
> 
> PS: you can enjoy the "perks" of driving non- singapore registered car while you are on EP, this is not applicable if you consider getting a PR


Don't think COE will ever get cheaper. But a rising population (due to migration) and a stagnant COE supply, it will simply means demand is much higher than supply. And basics economics tell us that it will mean price will go up

With so many cash rich folks in S'pore, paying SGD200k for a COE is nothing for them.


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## wesmant

jaybee123 said:


> Your M'sian friend could be a PR. It was the 'normal' thing to do...to apply for PR until recently. But the recent batch of M'sian working in S'pore is not too keen to apply for PR unless they intend to buy a HDB.


Ecureilx did mention that his colleagues are on EP. Well, i know some EP holder drive MY cars.
If we talk abt PR, no choice but to drive SG reg cars.

As for the COE, nobody would know
What price coming up next. More than a decade ago, it was higher than now, and it was $2 ij between. Well, it looks like it won't go down, but regulation might change, and possibility for it to go below 40k is there, regardless how high the chance is.


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## simonsays

jaybee123 said:


> I work from home most of the time so VEP is not a big factor for me. And by living outside S'pore, my family expenses is much lower now. But the main thing is that I can now afford cars and properties something that I can't afford when I was staying in Johor.


ah, work from home .. that throws a big spanner in the works .. not many can do that, and same for guys working in Tuas area, where parking is free..

Now imagine paying upwards for 40$ a day for parking in CBD, or half that, elsewhere. For somebody on EP in SG, unless he is a Malaysian, all that and more erodes the attraction of owning a car, MY or SG plate regardless .. 

Add to it ERP and all .. well, no comments .. 



jaybee123 said:


> Your M'sian friend could be a PR. It was the 'normal' thing to do...to apply for PR until recently. But the recent batch of M'sian working in S'pore is not too keen to apply for PR unless they intend to buy a HDB.


Me thinks you are living in a different world. How will PR make it easier to buy HDB house on open market, add the ABSD ? not so attractive anymore, vs those who want SC .. which not many Malaysians are keen to get anyway ..


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## beppi

This thread is missing the point:
You will not be allowed to live in Malaysia unless you either
- work there
- invest a lot there
- own a house there (above a minimum value)
- are married to a Malaysian
- take part in the MM2H program for retirees


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## wesmant

beppi said:


> - own a house there (above a minimum value)


This item is way too easy to qualify 

Anyway, FYI, there are quite a significant numbers of non singaporean/non malaysian stay in Johor and work in S'pore. I know more than a
Dozen of them


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## jaybee123

wesmant said:


> This item is way too easy to qualify
> 
> Anyway, FYI, there are quite a significant numbers of non singaporean/non malaysian stay in Johor and work in S'pore. I know more than a
> Dozen of them


Come over to East Ledang, Horizon Hills or Leisure Farm and this is where non S'porean/non Malaysian are located.


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## BBCWatcher

Am I the only one who has noticed the huge number of newly built but vacant offices and homes in Johor Bahru? "Real estate bubble" doesn't even begin to describe what I'm observing.


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## simonsays

wait till the Stamp duty for foreign buyers go up in the state of Johore 

The CM has said foreigners can afford to pay more, so better make them pay more


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## jaybee123

BBCWatcher said:


> Am I the only one who has noticed the huge number of newly built but vacant offices and homes in Johor Bahru? "Real estate bubble" doesn't even begin to describe what I'm observing.


Those project with theme like East Ledang, Horizon Hills, Leisure Farm and Setio Eco Garden will continue to do well because it is something that money cannot buy in S'pore. Or even if money can buy, it only cost 5% then what it cost in S'pore.....this is what a S'porean told me. So I do expect them to go up another 100%-200% in the next 5-7 years.

As for those 'normal' project with row and rows of houses, I think the demand will still be there but don't expect prices to go up substantially. 

Anyway, more and more expats and M'sian are relocating from S'pore to M'sia simply due to cost issue for the expat....education. Do you know that Marlborough College at Nusajaya attracts so many expat kids from S'pore. Go there and see for yourself many S'pore school buses are there everyday.


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## jaybee123

ecureilx said:


> wait till the Stamp duty for foreign buyers go up in the state of Johore
> 
> The CM has said foreigners can afford to pay more, so better make them pay more


Yes, the idea is that foreigner should be able to afford to pay more. Anyway, I don't see the increase to be a lot....if there's any in the first place. Don't think the new Johor CM would be so stupid to curb the growth of Iskandar.

Actually the growth of Iskandar (and more specifically Nusajaya) is due to high number of tenant and not investor. Most of those staying here are renting because they are expat or they are trying it out to see if they like this place.


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## BBCWatcher

I couldn't disagree with you more. The evidence JB is in a real estate bubble is obvious to anybody who cares to look. Construction firms and real estate developers went crazy, and the landscape is littered with large, completed, unoccupied or barely occupied properties.

This is a financial time bomb primed to explode in everyone's faces, in my opinion. And I really don't think I'm wrong.


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## wesmant

I would say, it's a yes and no. 

Assuming that most of the houses are not mortgaged, there'll be no bubble there. just that some people lose money only, no unpaid loan to financial institution.

And I'd think that's a very possible situation, since the house prices is quite cheap to those earning in SGD 

Well, let's see


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## jaybee123

wesmant said:


> I would say, it's a yes and no.
> 
> Assuming that most of the houses are not mortgaged, there'll be no bubble there. just that some people lose money only, no unpaid loan to financial institution.
> 
> And I'd think that's a very possible situation, since the house prices is quite cheap to those earning in SGD
> 
> Well, let's see


Yes, there's a lot of empty units that's because the owner are not renting or selling. Go and have a look at Horizon Hills. Owners there not interested to sell/rent. Obviously they have holding power.

And yes, property here is relative cheap. In fact for something like Horizon Hills, it would cost 5x more in S'pore.


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## BBCWatcher

Fantastic. So there is ample vacant real estate that owners are sitting on that they won't rent or sell at market clearing prices, and given that there are lots of individuals still willing to buy and hold vacant property for extended periods there are real estate developers and construction companies happy to build more (and doing it).

No, that's not a bubble. 

It doesn't matter what the price ratio is! Just because homes are in high demand in San Francisco doesn't mean they're in high demand in Detroit, for example. Johor Bahru is not Singapore, and real estate in Johor Bahru is not actually a close substitute for real estate in Singapore (as the prices prove). Singapore also has at least a bit of a real estate bubble, as the Singaporean government is quite aware.


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## jaybee123

BBCWatcher said:


> Fantastic. So there is ample vacant real estate that owners are sitting on that they won't rent or sell at market clearing prices, and given that there are lots of individuals still willing to buy and hold vacant property for extended periods there are real estate developers and construction companies happy to build more (and doing it).
> 
> No, that's not a bubble.
> 
> It doesn't matter what the price ratio is! Just because homes are in high demand in San Francisco doesn't mean they're in high demand in Detroit, for example. Johor Bahru is not Singapore, and real estate in Johor Bahru is not actually a close substitute for real estate in Singapore (as the prices prove). Singapore also has at least a bit of a real estate bubble, as the Singaporean government is quite aware.


You are right when you mentioned that JB is different from S'pore. As an expat, I'm sure you know that expats in S'pore are migrating to Jb (more specifically Horizon Hills, East Ledang and Setia Eco Garden) in numbers because of education (Marlborough College), cost of housing, bigger housing and cost of car.

I moved to HH in Jan this year. My row of houses (36 houses) were half occupied. Now in Aug, only 2 are empty. Rental went up 80% since Jan, but still very cheap compare to renting a HDB in S'pore. Mostly non-S'porean/SPR.

If you ask me, I think the migration has just started.


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## jaybee123

Just to add a bit more. When I was staying in S'pore, I can't afford a car or a property. Takes me 55min (door-to-door) to reach office. Walk to bus stop, wait for bus, walk to MRT station, wait for MRT, walk to office.

Now, it takes me 75min (at the comfort of my car) to reach office. Yes, 40min extra each working day, but I now can afford a car.... and a house too. And my overall expenses goes down too.

No property, no car = higher expenses
With property, with car but additional 40min commute to work = lower expenses

Took me all of 1 month (plus daily trial run driving to work from HH) to make that decision.


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## BBCWatcher

There is some amount of demand in Johor Bahru...and an immense and growing stock of completed, unoccupied (or minimally occupied) properties. Just drive around JB -- or get driven around in a bus or taxi. It's absolutely mind boggling how much vacant property there is, and there's even lots of property that was partially built in the last bubble and now decaying. This market will crash (again) in my view. The only questions are when and how hard. If you buy a property it's _extremely_ risky in terms of how much value that property will hold.


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## jaybee123

BBCWatcher said:


> There is some amount of demand in Johor Bahru...and an immense and growing stock of completed, unoccupied (or minimally occupied) properties. Just drive around JB -- or get driven around in a bus or taxi. It's absolutely mind boggling how much vacant property there is, and there's even lots of property that was partially built in the last bubble and now decaying. This market will crash (again) in my view. The only questions are when and how hard. If you buy a property it's _extremely_ risky in terms of how much value that property will hold.


I guess time will tell.

Here's my forecast:
1. East Ledang terrace house now selling for about RM1.45m. By 2020, I'm looking at RM2.5m.
2. Horizon Hills terrace house now selling for about RM800k. By 2020, I'm looking at RM1.5m
3. As for other houses that you mentioned (those without theme and just rows and rows of houses) the price will not go up much.
4. Condo - not sure why people buying them when it is more expensive than freehold landed properties. Potentially the price will go down.

Btw, I'm not looking at JB. Just Nusajaya.


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## wesmant

BBCWatcher said:


> No, that's not a bubble.


Pardon me for my lack of knowledge, what is "property bubble"?

When I said it's not bubble, it was with a reason that I assume that the property are fully paid, not in mortgage. 

Hope you care to explain what sort of property bubble that makes it worrying in JB.


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## BBCWatcher

Wikipedia is your friend. Mortgages are not a required element in a property bubble.


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## wesmant

Okay... After reading that wiki things, seems like the component is "increased in price" to a silly level.

Is that happening in Johor? To my limited knowledge, housing in SG is going at rediculous increase, as for JB? Hmm... 

So, does JB really heading toward property buble with the market trend?


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## BBCWatcher

"Ridiculous" is relative.

As for Singapore, yes, the government is very concerned a bubble is well underway and could soon burst.


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## Spinflop

jaybee123 said:


> I guess time will tell.
> 
> Here's my forecast:
> 1. East Ledang terrace house now selling for about RM1.45m. By 2020, I'm looking at RM2.5m.
> 2. Horizon Hills terrace house now selling for about RM800k. By 2020, I'm looking at RM1.5m
> 3. As for other houses that you mentioned (those without theme and just rows and rows of houses) the price will not go up much.
> 4. Condo - not sure why people buying them when it is more expensive than freehold landed properties. Potentially the price will go down.
> 
> Btw, I'm not looking at JB. Just Nusajaya.


A quick update/correction.... HH terrace is NOW going for RM1.2m.....


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## JWolak

*French Expats*

Are there any French Expats living in Johor Bahru?


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## JoeSum

JB is cheap and can be good enough for stay and lifestyle. But beware the crime. Singapore is still safe and clean!


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## TexIndian

JoeSum said:


> JB is cheap and can be good enough for stay and lifestyle. But beware the crime. Singapore is still safe and clean!


I'm headed over to JB in a few weeks and this thread seems to be the place on expat forums that has the most activity. I know that there are significantly less expats living in JB than KL and Penang. But are there expat groups/meet ups going on there? Or is it better to check in on the Singapore activity?


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