# news of spain......



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

The news fropm spain, as depicted by the british media, well "the Sun"

Pain in Spain is back as bailout fears grow | The Sun |News|Sun City

Jo xxx


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

.. and this Incensed Spain threatens Argentina after YPF seizure | Reuters

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> .. and this Incensed Spain threatens Argentina after YPF seizure | Reuters
> 
> Jo xxx


The Argentinian economy is on the rocks...hence populist gestures of this kind which are in reality like shooting yourself in the foot. I notice La Presidente was carefully posed against a portrait of Eva Peron....

This and the renewed fuss over the Falklands.

I feel about the Falklands as I do about Gibraltar....both God-forsaken dots on the map whose inhabitants wish to remain British.

So they should be allowed to. End of story.


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

I beg to differ. First of all, I was under the impresion that the Argentinian economy was doing quite well, but havent checked lately. 

I for one totally respect a president that puts the interests of its people first, instead of those of banks and inverstors. The argentinians didn't have enough petrol to cover their growing needs, despite of having the natural resources to do so, and this is because of mismanagment and greed of Repsol spanish buffons. 
Yes a contract has been broken, but the deal was done during deperate times for Argentina, and the spanish, as usual, took advantage. What starts badly, badly ends, as we say in Spain (and probably in Argentina too). 

What is found in Argentinian soil, should be used to the best interest of their own people. As for the Facklands, I agree, their inhabitant should remain british if they wish to do so, but what it is found in Argentinian soil and water, should belong to them.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

The royal elephant killer story was on the BBC news yesterday. And some twit from the OECD was quoted saying Spain was only good for wine and flamenco.

Better to be talked about than not talked about, I suppose.


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> The royal elephant killer story was on the BBC news yesterday. And some twit from the OECD was quoted saying Spain was only good for wine and flamenco.
> 
> Better to be talked about than not talked about, I suppose.


...I know, I 've lost all sense of national pride. OUr royals are shooting precious wildlife, Flamenco gets on my nerves, and I secretly admit that I'd rather have californian wine...But HEy, at least we are still the football world champions, right? Althought the french think that they were doped .

oh well...


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Sonrisa said:


> ...I know, I 've lost all sense of national pride. OUr royals are shooting precious wildlife, Flamenco gets on my nerves, and I secretly admit that I'd rather have californian wine...But HEy, at least we are still the football world champions, right? Althought the french think that they were doped .
> 
> oh well...



I love your attitude lol!!!

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Just love all those over the top adjectives 
_Spain’s under fire PM Mariano Rajoy admitted the country would not be able to fund itself unless it slashed spending. Even Spain’s King Juan Carlos was dragged into the crisis. He was slammed by Spanish media for flying to Botswana to hunt elephants._
But an article a week is all I can take from The Sun


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> The royal elephant killer story was on the BBC news yesterday. And some twit from the OECD was quoted saying Spain was only good for wine and flamenco.
> 
> Better to be talked about than not talked about, I suppose.


Is the WWF doing anything about kicking JC out?


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Is the WWF doing anything about kicking JC out?


I hear that they officially are "opening the door" so he could let himself out.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Sonrisa said:


> I beg to differ. First of all, I was under the impresion that the Argentinian economy was doing quite well, but havent checked lately.
> 
> I for one totally respect a president that puts the interests of its people first, instead of those of banks and inverstors. The argentinians didn't have enough petrol to cover their growing needs, despite of having the natural resources to do so, and this is because of mismanagment and greed of Repsol spanish buffons.
> Yes a contract has been broken, but the deal was done during deperate times for Argentina, and the spanish, as usual, took advantage. What starts badly, badly ends, as we say in Spain (and probably in Argentina too).
> ...


I see where you are coming from ...but if you extended that principle the Spanish Government would be entitled to nationalise Carrefour and the UK Government should nationalise Zara as well as the vast foreign-owned petroleum corporations.
Are you sure that Kirchner's actions have benefitted the country rather than being a shallow populist gesture -like the Falklands sabre-rattling - to distract attention from a mismanaged economy with rising inflation? The seizure of corporate assets-which is what it is- is in contravention of both law and practicality in that it is likely to lead to extreme reluctance on the part of foreign investors to pump much-needed money into the Argentine economy.

I'm afraid that the idea that a national leader who ignores the interests of banks and investors is acting in the national interest just doesn't square with the world as it is. Any modern nation state that cares for the interests of its people will be very careful about the way it treats banks and investors, especially one like Argentina the economy of which, as with so many South American states, has been deformed by decades of misdguided and mismanaged collectivism.

It's a romantic notion, the heroic leader defying the evil predatory capitalists, I agree. But notions and reality sadly rarely coincide and we are back to the tired old cliche of seeing the world as it is...

And could the fact that Argentina has failed to develop its natural resources to the benefit of its people also lie at least in part with the mismanagement and corruption of past and not so past Argentinian politicians?


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Argentine inflationis running at 23+% !

The problem is the speculators. They've got bored elsewhere& have turned their attention to Spain , once again !
The Spanish have done all that has been asked of them by Implementing swinging austerity cuts. It's extremely difficult to have growth when asked to implement austerity !
They have increased exports & reduced imports & now have a net income.Inflation is low, lower than the Uk. Yes there's the highest unemployment in the EU but that's what austerity brings. The ten year bond interest rate is being forced up, by the lenders & speculators, but as one economist pointed out at the weekend ; Why would you invest in German ten year bonds at 1,75% when any sane person can work out that over this period german wage rises & inflation will leave you with less than your original investment ? Another professor from the Madrid institute pointed out on Bloomberg yesterday that the Spanish have accepted the cuts , done everything asked of them & are still getting a kicking ! Why ? + their fierce pride will not allow them to seek help( even if it was necessary) or ask for a bailout!
This is something that is giving me extreme cause for concern at the moment which it shouldn't be. 
If you allow speculators ( Gamblers in essence ) to run the markets I've always said that it's a recipe for disaster.
The EC Bank won't lend to eu countries at low rates but will lend to any eu bank at 1% ! So you've got banks borrowing at 1% & buying government bonds at 6% !!!!!!!!!!! It's just encouraging the speculators to put pressure on to up the bond rates.
When they talk of 'bailouts' it's worth bearing in mind that Cataluña alone has a gdp equivalent to that of Austria ! It's never going to happen.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> Argentine inflationis running at 23+% !
> 
> The problem is the speculators. They've got bored elsewhere& have turned their attention to Spain , once again !
> The Spanish have done all that has been asked of them by Implementing swinging austerity cuts. It's extremely difficult to have growth when asked to implement austerity !
> ...



All true....but it was electorates all over Europe, Australia, New Zealand and the U.S. who allowed this to happen by voting in Governments that followed slavishly the free market 'greed is good' philosophy. 
Tory or New Labour, Republican or Democrat...all followed the deregulate,privatise, free trade, free movement of capital and people neo-liberal agenda.
The rich got richer by creaming off the profits of corporate enterprise, the less well-off gorged on ultimately unaffordable credit to fund a lifestyle they could previously only aspire to.
A sense of entitlement isn't the sole property of those on welfare....far too many people fail to understand that there is no law that says you should have a bigger house, a newer car, your 'dream' home in Spain.
Blaming Governments, especially the comparatively prudent Spanish Government of Zapatero, for all the current ills is shifting responsibility from those voters that put them there, surely...
And yes, the markets determine economic policies and outcomes, not national governments.
But how, *realistically*, at this time to change this dreadful state of affairs?
The deficit must be reduced, debt repaid and a new approach instigated.
There is no other way.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Here's another cheery little article about Brits trapped in Spain, and the effect of the mass exodus on a local community (Villanueva del Trabuco).

'Any expats who could move back to the UK already have. The rest of us are trapped' - Europe - World - The Independent

I'm a little puzzled why it cites the fall of the euro as a reason for them wanting to leave. A fall in the euro means their pensions go further, surely?


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Here's another cheery little article about Brits trapped in Spain, and the effect of the mass exodus on a local community (Villanueva del Trabuco).
> 
> 'Any expats who could move back to the UK already have. The rest of us are trapped' - Europe - World - The Independent
> 
> I'm a little puzzled why it cites the fall of the euro as a reason for them wanting to leave. A fall in the euro means their pensions go further, surely?


Yes that article is quite mixed up. The headline says



> As house prices tumble, and the euro falls just as fast, a dark shadow has been cast over the Britons who retired to the sun


It's just wrong.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I think Rajoy should take a leaf out of Kirchner's book and nationalise Marks and Spencers......


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Here's another cheery little article about Brits trapped in Spain, and the effect of the mass exodus on a local community (Villanueva del Trabuco).
> 
> 'Any expats who could move back to the UK already have. The rest of us are trapped' - Europe - World - The Independent
> 
> I'm a little puzzled why it cites the fall of the euro as a reason for them wanting to leave. A fall in the euro means their pensions go further, surely?



I guess the rise in prices has overtaken the fall in the euro/£ rate.
But some of these people have only themselves to blame. Taking on mortgages one really can't afford is a recipe for disaster whether in S****horpe or Salou.
Again, retiring to Spain was viewed as part of the 'never had it so good' consumer package of the 1980s. People uppede sticks and left the UK on a shoestring.
When we contemplated moving to Spain in the summer of 2008, we had already experienced a drop of almost 30% in income as a result of the CKZ/£ exchange rate. The £ at that time would buy 1.22 euros, as now. I did our calculations on the basis of 1:1 parity, never thinking we'd need that margin of 'safety'. 
When we arrived in December 2008 the £ was getting us....1 euro!!


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Here's another cheery little article about Brits trapped in Spain, and the effect of the mass exodus on a local community (Villanueva del Trabuco).
> 
> 'Any expats who could move back to the UK already have. The rest of us are trapped' - Europe - World - The Independent
> 
> I'm a little puzzled why it cites the fall of the euro as a reason for them wanting to leave. A fall in the euro means their pensions go further, surely?


It's just nonsense . The final paragraph about putting the keys through the letter box says a lot for the quality ! In reality None of them would have a mortgage .

This says it all !! " But, he adds gloomily, corned beef prices in his local Iceland have gone through the roof." :rofl:


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> It's just nonsense . The final paragraph about putting the keys through the letter box says a lot for the quality ! In reality None of them would have a mortgage .
> 
> This says it all !! " But, he adds gloomily, corned beef prices in his local Iceland have gone through the roof." :rofl:


Hahaha
That has be a candidate for Quote of the Year! With that kind of attitude he wasn't going to last his retirement out anyway, was he?
:bounce:Thanks for pointing that out Gus:bounce:


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

gus-lopez said:


> Argentine inflationis running at 23+% !
> .


Says who?


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I see where you are coming from ...but if you extended that principle the Spanish Government would be entitled to nationalise Carrefour and the UK Government should nationalise Zara as well as the vast foreign-owned petroleum corporations.
> Are you sure that Kirchner's actions have benefitted the country rather than being a shallow populist gesture -like the Falklands sabre-rattling - to distract attention from a mismanaged economy with rising inflation? The seizure of corporate assets-which is what it is- is in contravention of both law and practicality in that it is likely to lead to extreme reluctance on the part of foreign investors to pump much-needed money into the Argentine economy.
> 
> I'm afraid that the idea that a national leader who ignores the interests of banks and investors is acting in the national interest just doesn't square with the world as it is. Any modern nation state that cares for the interests of its people will be very careful about the way it treats banks and investors, especially one like Argentina the economy of which, as with so many South American states, has been deformed by decades of misdguided and mismanaged collectivism.
> ...


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Sonrisa said:


> Says who?


Sorry , my mistake ! I read ( in an article ) the '23% increase last year ' as the rate :  Thought it was a bit high ! 
It's 9,8% . Still 5x Spains & nearly double the uK.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Sonrisa said:


> mrypg9 said:
> 
> 
> > I see where you are coming from ...but if you extended that principle the Spanish Government would be entitled to nationalise Carrefour and the UK Government should nationalise Zara as well as the vast foreign-owned petroleum corporations.
> ...


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Sonrisa said:
> 
> 
> > And so would I if life were that simple. But sadly it isn't....
> ...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Sonrisa said:


> mrypg9 said:
> 
> 
> > I agree.  But what other choice does Argentina have right now, other than expropiation.
> ...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

This might amuse you, Sonrisa...
I help my Spanish friend Meri with her English and a week ago we decided to refresh geographical terms. I got out an old atlas from my childhood with vast swathes of the world coloured pink to represent the extent of the British Empire.
Meri asked why there was so much pink on the map so I explained that the British Empire at its zenith was the largest, richest etc. the world had ever seen.

There was a short silence.

Meri then pointed at enormous swathes of South and Central America, the western and eastern seaboards of the North American continent, the Phillipines, the West Indies....
and said solemnly: 'Do you know, it was said that the Spanish Empire was so vast that the sun could never set on it?'

I explained that we said that about the British Empire...we both laughed.

I also told her that the reason the sun never set on the British Empire was because God didn't trust the British in the dark....


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

gus-lopez said:


> Sorry , my mistake ! I read ( in an article ) the '23% increase last year ' as the rate :  Thought it was a bit high !
> It's 9,8% . Still 5x Spains & nearly double the uK.


This says a lot though:


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> This says a lot though:




Not really....a similar chart could have been produced for Germany 1933 - 1939.

Inflation estimated to be running at 20% -official Argentinian Government statistics are regarded as 'dodgy' by many international bodies so it's hard to get an accurate estimate - a recent 500- yes 500% - increase in energy bills, increased costs of transport...all have hit the less well-off the hardest.

It's estimated that up to one third of the population live in poverty, inspite -or because of - the Kirchner Government's huge subsidies to social welfare and industry. This in what a hundred years ago was one of the world's richest countries.

Subsidies per se do not relieve poverty. Maladministration, inadequate focus, poor distribution and corruption can wipe out any beneficial effect. The same with support to industry.

Kirchner is playing an unapologetically populist card to cover up the consequences of her and her late husband's mismanagement. Playing the Evita card...her son leads some kind of Peronist youth group, apparently, and Evita kitsch has been much in evidence from her supporters - is a tired old veil drawn over sheer ineptitude. Falklands sabre-rattling and the expropriation can only distract attention from the mismanagement of the economy and the national oil reserves for a limited period of time.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I also told her that the reason the sun never set on the British Empire was because God didn't trust the British in the dark....


I can understand his misgivings .

Here is an explanation , in farming terms , of Politics & all the .....isms !

Cows & Politics


SOCIALISM
You have 2 cows.
You give one to your neighbour.

COMMUNISM
You have 2 cows.
The state takes both and gives you some milk.

FASCISM
You have 2 cows.
The state takes both and sells you some milk.

NAZISM
You have 2 cows.
The state takes both and shoots you.

BUREAUCRATISM
You have 2 cows.
The state takes both, shoots one, milks the other, and then throws the milk away.

TRADITIONAL CAPITALISM
You have two cows.
You sell one and buy a bull.
Your herd multiplies, and the economy grows.
You sell them and retire on the income.

ROYAL BANK OF SCOTLAND (VENTURE) CAPITALISM You have two cows.
You sell three of them to your publicly listed company, using letters
of credit opened by your brother-in-law at the bank, then execute a
debt/equity swap with an associated general offer so that you get all
four cows back, with a tax exemption for five cows.
The milk rights of the six cows are transferred via an intermediary to
a Cayman Island Company secretly owned by the majority shareholder who
sells the rights to all seven cows back to your listed company.
The annual report says the company owns eight cows, with an option on
one more.
You sell one cow to buy a new president of the United States, leaving
you with nine cows.
No balance sheet provided with the release.
The public then buys your bull.

SURREALISM
You have two giraffes.
The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.

AN AMERICAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You sell one, and force the other to produce the milk of four cows.
Later, you hire a consultant to analyse why the cow has dropped dead.

A FRENCH CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You go on strike, organize a riot, and block the roads, because you
want three cows.

A JAPANESE CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of an ordinary cow
and produce twenty times the milk.
You then create a clever cow cartoon image called a Cowkimona and
market it worldwide.

AN ITALIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows, but you don't know where they are.
You decide to have lunch.

A SWISS CORPORATION
You have 5000 cows. None of them belong to you.
You charge the owners for storing them.

A CHINESE CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You have 300 people milking them.
You claim that you have full employment and high bovine productivity.
You arrest the newsman who reported the real situation.

AN INDIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You worship them.

A SPANISH CORPORATION
You have 2 cows but owe Santander for 6.
Nobody drinks milk.
You have a siesta and read about the collapse of the Euro

A GREEK CORPORATION
You lease 2 cows and pay somebody 3 times the going rate to milk them
using borrowed money.
You refinance the 4 cows to secure the services of Goldman Sachs. They
sell the future milk production of the 60 cows and fund your
lifestyle.
You retire to anywhere that doesn't use the Euro.

A BRITISH CORPORATION
You have two cows.
Both are mad.

AN IRAQI CORPORATION
Everyone thinks you have lots of cows.
You tell them that you have none.
No-one believes you, so they bomb the crap out of you and invade your
country.
You still have no cows, but at least you are now a democracy.

AN AUSTRALIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
Business seems pretty good.
You close the office and go for a few beers to celebrate.

A NEW ZEALAND CORPORATION
You have two cows.
The one on the left looks very attractive.

AN ARGENTINIAN CORPORATION
You don't have any cows.
But you claim sovereignty over the ones belonging to your neighbour.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Does anyone else get the impression that this was written by a Traditional Capitalist?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> Does anyone else get the impression that this was written by a Traditional Capitalist?


Traditional capitalism is a new name for a very established practice.
We are all capitalists to a degree...
No other system has produced a greater amount of material and social prosperity for the majority of people.
Regulated, social market capitalism....hopefully one day we'll see it reinstated in all European states.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jimenato said:


> Does anyone else get the impression that this was written by a Traditional Capitalist?


Yes, but he missed a bit out.


TRADITIONAL CAPITALISM
You have two cows.
You sell one and buy a bull.
Your herd multiplies, and the the price of milk falls because of over-supply.
You cut costs by reducing the wage bill for your milkmaids.
They can then no longer afford to buy milk.
You sell the cows to a dog food company and retire on the income.


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, but he missed a bit out.
> 
> 
> TRADITIONAL CAPITALISM
> ...


 YOu have miss a bit out too...

You have two cows.
You sell one and buy a bull.
Your herd multiplies, and the the price of milk falls because of over-supply.
You cut costs by reducing the wage bill for your milkmaids.
They can then no longer afford to buy milk.
You sell the cows to a dog food company and retire on the income and all the profits that you have been hiding in a secret bank accout in Gibraltar in order to avoid taxes.


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> .
> I also told her that the reason the sun never set on the British Empire was because God didn't trust the British in the dark....


lol, God knows best I suppose. Amen.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, but he missed a bit out.
> 
> 
> TRADITIONAL CAPITALISM
> ...



A gross oversimplification, based on an already existing ideological premise and awesome generalisation. But you knew I would say that....



How about this for a real-world variation:

You have two cows.
You employ people to milk, feed, care for them, maintain the premises etc.
You pay these people handsomely, increasing their wages as your profit increases.
You yourself work alongside these employees.
You pay yourself less than your manager, using profit to expand the business, buy more cows and thus increase your employees pay and the number of employees needed to look after these extra cows..
Of course you put aside a sum for your retirement from these profits - why not as your initial injection of capital -risky at the time - enabled the business to grow and employ people.
Your profit margin is equal or less to what you would have received if you had invested the money instead of buying more cows..
You as owner/MD work seven days a week, twelve hours a day to keep on top of things.
You decide you've had enough and have enough money to retire comfortably.
You give your General Manager and other managers a quarter stake of your company shares for free.
You leave a thriving business in their hands, taking merely a small amount to live on.
They display a greed and ineptitude of magisterial proportions, taking exorbitant paid sick leave, giving mates cows for free, not opening at regular hours so the cows are malnourished and fail to thrive, put cash payments for milk and meat sales in their pockets instead of the till...
You decide that if the business is to continue you must return to run it yourself.
You don't want to do that as your partner can provide a decent living for both of you and looking after the cows, the employees, the finances was creating a health risk..
You close the business and sell the assets but as the cows are in a sorry state due to a year's neglect they don't raise enough capital to pay off debts your workers have run up.
You find that no tax or VAT and many suppliers of feed, equipment, vets' bills etc. have not been paid.
You pay off HMRC, all your suppliers, small ones first.
Your savings are eaten up by paying debts not of your making.
A long-standing business closes putting twenty plus people out of work.
Small local businesses that relied on you also close down.



Who is responsible for this?
We wicked capitalists who risked our money, paid good wages, worked harder than any employee?
The employees who took advantage to short-sightedly line their own pockets - and pocketed more in redundancy than we received in immediate capital?

Thankfully OH is an astute businesswoman who had put the company's property assets into a SIPP so we were left with a reasonable sum to live on...but not really enough to compensate for the years of work, risk and worry. Since we were never used to having much money we are more than content with what we do have. We count ourselves lucky.

The scenario I have described was and is all too real too often.

The point of this long tale is twofold:
1) it is a gross misrepresentation to depict capitalism per se as inevitably exploitative - there is in fact no 'traditional' capitalism, merely many varieties
and 
2) the only alternative, a centrally-planned publicly-owned economy produces more misery,oppression and inequality than any variety of capitalism, even the dire free-market model.

Only people who have never experienced the alternative have the habit of knocking capitalism per se. A spell in the Soviet Union or Poland might have changed their mindset.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

That reminds me of the 'half-wit' joke !

A man owned a small farm in Saskatchewan .

The Saskatchewan Provincial Wage & Hours Department

claimed he was not paying proper wages to his help

and sent an agent out to interview him.

'I need a list of your employees and how much you pay them,'
demanded the agent.

'Well,' replied the farmer, 'there's my farm hand who's been with me
for 3 years. I pay him $200 a week plus free room and board. The cook has
been here for 18 months, and I pay her $150 per week plus free room
and board.

Then there's the half-wit. He works about 18 hours every day and does
about 90% of all the work around here. He makes about $10 per week,
pays his own room and board, and I buy him a bottle of bourbon every
Saturday night. He also sleeps with my wife occasionally.'

'That's the guy I want to talk to...the half-wit,' says the agent.

'That would be me,' replied the farmer.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> That reminds me of the 'half-wit' joke !
> 
> A man owned a small farm in Saskatchewan .
> 
> ...



Yep!!!

If I had to point to one 'failing' in my partner's approach to business that she (being Scottish and more left-wing than me) was over-anxious to avoid being 'exploitative' whereas, having taught for decades, had and still have a much less rosy view of human nature.

The fact is that there is only none alternative to any form of capitalism and that has been proven to be a failure both in human and material terms.

We are all, thankfully, capitalist to one degree or another...


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## Burpy (Apr 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Not really....a similar chart could have been produced for Germany 1933 - 1939.
> 
> Inflation estimated to be running at 20%...


Unless I´m missing something, isn´t this irrelevant since the chart is expressed in US dollars?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Burpy said:


> Unless I´m missing something, isn´t this irrelevant since the chart is expressed in US dollars?


No. That's what renders it meaningless.
What a $US will buy in say Romania differs from what it could buy in say Switzerland.
It is a comparison meaningful only in terms of the $US and doesn't tell us anything about, to take one example, redistribution within each country.
Charts like this tell us nothing about _quality,_ only quantity.

To refer again to my previous analogy.....such a chart produced in say 1938, calculated in $US or any currency, would should Germany as a European and possibly world leader in productivity....
A chart of industrial productivity in the Soviet Union of the 1930s would show similar gains.
Neither chart would indicate the nature of what was produced: armaments in Nazi Germany or how it was produced: Gulags and forced labour in Stalin's Russia.


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