# Newest parties in Spain receive high number of votes in elections



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

The newest parties have gained an enormous amount of voted between them with Podemos winning 69 seats and Ciudadanos 40.
Both the PP and Psoe suffered heavy losses.
What now?
Diario Público


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> The newest parties have gained an enormous amount of voted between them with Podemos winning 69 seats and Ciudadanos 40.
> Both the PP and Psoe suffered heavy losses.
> What now?
> Diario Público


Hopefully something I predicted months ago....a PSOE/Podemos coalition.


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

Hopefully it will mean something positive for expats but who knows what!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Hopefully something I predicted months ago....a PSOE/Podemos coalition.


Even that isn't enough for a majority of 176 though

PSOE with 90 & Podemos with 69. On TV a minute ago I saw that if PSOE joins forces with Podemos & several of the 'little ones' it might just be enough. I don't know how many of these would be natural allies though.

In Jávea although we had a massive PSOE landslide in the locals in May, the national vote was still PP! Admittedly much less so than in 2011 (23% less)


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

I wonder how many votes PSOE and PP lost themselves after that deplorable low political class debate where Sanchez called Rajoy dishonest (no decente) and Rajoy called Sanchez mean and despicable (mezquino y ruin) and where they also both failed to actually specify concrete actions that they would take once in power. The fact is they both lost millions in these elections; the PP 3,651036 and the PSOE 1,472818. Either one of these parties who doesn't admit that their result is poor and who fails to take the other parties seriously is living in the past.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> Even that isn't enough for a majority of 176 though
> 
> PSOE with 90 & Podemos with 69. On TV a minute ago I saw that if PSOE joins forces with Podemos & several of the 'little ones' it might just be enough. I don't know how many of these would be natural allies though.
> 
> In Jávea although we had a massive PSOE landslide in the locals in May, the national vote was still PP! Admittedly much less so than in 2011 (23% less)


I'm hopeful...Rivera said he wouldn't pact with losers.....sadly, we've lost Estepona, quite a shock but down to the JM Garcia Urbano effect. He really has been a good and popular Alcalde...sod him!!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I'm hopeful...Rivera said he wouldn't pact with losers.....sadly, we've lost Estepona, quite a shock but down to the JM Garcia Urbano effect. He really has been a good and popular Alcalde...sod him!!


All the parties are losers in some ways - the PP "won" but didn't get the majority and all the others "lost" so what does not pact with the losers mean? What has Podemos said about pacts? They have laid down some Red Lines too.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I wonder how many votes PSOE and PP lost themselves after that deplorable low political class debate where Sanchez called Rajoy dishonest (no decente) and Rajoy called Sanchez mean and despicable (mezquino y ruin) and where they also both failed to actually specify concrete actions that they would take once in power. The fact is they both lost millions in these elections; the PP 3,651036 and the PSOE 1,472818. Either one of these parties who doesn't admit that their result is poor and who fails to take the other parties seriously is living in the past.


Yes we lost votes. But my view is a win by one vote is a win and you take it from there.
You look to the future. And in any future government it will be PSOE in charge. That's reality. You learn the lessons and move on. There will be disappointed Podemos voters, those who believed the hype and thought Iglesias really would be Presidente just as there are sad PSOE people.
But although I would have preferred more escanos for us to give us a stronger hand I want to see PSOE govern with Podemos. We need a kick in the nether regions. 
Incidentally, Rajoy no es honrado, no?
And as for the effect on expats....I spent thirteen hours yesterday at the mesa to get a better Government for Spain, for Spaniards, not for immigrants, most of whom don't have a vote...like me.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> All the parties are losers in some ways - the PP "won" but didn't get the majority and all the others "lost" so what does not pact with the losers mean? What has Podemos said about pacts? They have laid down some Red Lines too.


Iglesias will negotiate and some 'red lines' will be crossed. PSOE too has to be open to change. I like Podemos' policies on transparency in local government.
In a way I'm not too upset we got a kicking locally. We screwed up, we took votes for granted, like Labour in Scotland. I've already drawn up a set of propuestas to rejuvenate our party locally, strategies for positive opposition, for getting more members..
I'm energised


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Yes we lost votes. But my view is a win by one vote is a win and you take it from there.
> You look to the future. And in any future government it will be PSOE in charge. That's reality. You learn the lessons and move on. There will be disappointed Podemos voters, those who believed the hype and thought Iglesias really would be Presidente just as there are sad PSOE people.
> But although I would have preferred more escanos for us to give us a stronger hand I want to see PSOE govern with Podemos. We need a kick in the nether regions.
> *Incidentally, Rajoy no es honrado, no?*
> And as for the effect on expats....I spent thirteen hours yesterday at the mesa to get a better Government for Spain, for Spaniards, not for immigrants, most of whom don't have a vote...like me.


No, I don't think he is, but you don't win new votes by insulting your opponent, harking on about the past and not putting anything on the table yourself which is what both of them did. It was deplorable and embarassing (vergüenza ajena).
Anyway, onward and upward I hope as we can't be much further down on the political scale


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

A little bit of info in English
Spain election: voters bury two-party system; Podemos surges | Fusion


> *Podemos, which was only founded in early 2014 *and had no seats in the Spanish parliament, defied predictions that its support was overstated. With nearly all the votes counted, Podemos was on track to gain 69 seats in the election, behind the PP and the PSOE. *The PSOE saw its worst-ever electoral result*. The PP came in first but fell well short of the 176-seat majority it needed to govern alone. Ciudadanos placed fourth.


Spain election: Political uncertainty after split result - BBC News


> The fact that the conservative PP came first with just 29% of the vote tells you how split this election was.
> In reality the PP will struggle to find the necessary allies to form another government.
> Podemos, an anti-austerity movement born during Spain's financial crisis, confirmed its position as a new, powerful political force.
> It is possible it could form part of a left-wing alliance. Mathematically, such a coalition could reach power with the support of pro-independence Catalan parties.
> But Spaniards could be guessing for days, or even weeks, about the shape and colour of their next Government.


It seems there was a good turnout


> Election turnout was 73% - up slightly compared to the 2011 election.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> No, I don't think he is, but you don't win new votes by insulting your opponent, harking on about the past and not putting anything on the table yourself which is what both of them did. It was deplorable and embarassing (vergüenza ajena).
> Anyway, onward and upward I hope as we can't be much further down on the political scale


I must admit that these cara a cara events don't do much for the cause of political enlightenment. More entertainment, tepid ' gladiatorial' contests rather than serious debate.
And yes, Sanchez should have expressed the same sentiment in a less personal, strident way.. I dislike insult and abuse. You can put harsh sentiments in soft words....


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I am not really a fan of coalition governments, especially ones propped up by tiny minority parties as it looks as if any new Spanish Government would have to be. The minnows end up with a disproportionate amount of influence if their support has to be "bought", and there is a potential lack of stability.

Diffficult to see at the moment how things will go, but it seems to me Podemos did much better yesterday than pre-election polls suggested, whilst Cuidadanos fell short of expectations.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> I am not really a fan of coalition governments, especially ones propped up by tiny minority parties as it looks as if any new Spanish Government would have to be. The minnows end up with a disproportionate amount of influence if their support has to be "bought", and there is a potential lack of stability.
> 
> Diffficult to see at the moment how things will go, but it seems to me Podemos did much better yesterday than pre-election polls suggested, whilst Cuidadanos fell short of expectations.


May be true for the minnows, but also the smaller party in a two-way coalition tends to have it's base of followers destroyed as it ends up making most of the compromises. It's what happened to the Lib Dems in the UK. I suspect the best move for PSOE, Podemos and C's would be to let Rajoy attempt to form a weak government on his own, let him suffer, have a vote of no confidence, followed by another election.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Chopera said:


> May be true for the minnows, but also the smaller party in a two-way coalition tends to have it's base of followers destroyed as it ends up making most of the compromises. It's what happened to the Lib Dems in the UK. I suspect the best move for PSOE, Podemos and C's would be to let Rajoy attempt to form a weak government on his own, let him suffer, have a vote of no confidence, followed by another election.


I don't think that would do a lot for the economic recovery of the country though, Government borrowing costs in particular would shoot up if things drag on and there is the prospect of another election having to be called, and potential investors could be put off.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

If Rivera were to enter into a coalition with the PP that would fly in the face of everything he has previously said about not being willing to join coalitions, wouldn't it? Would the C's supporters be happy about that or would it be his Nick Clegg/tuition fees moment?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> If Rivera were to enter into a coalition with the PP that would fly in the face of everything he has previously said about not being willing to join coalitions, wouldn't it? Would the C's supporters be happy about that or would it be his Nick Clegg/tuition fees moment?


PP plus Cs falls short of absolute majority. Who else will pactar with Rajoy?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> I am not really a fan of coalition governments, especially ones propped up by tiny minority parties as it looks as if any new Spanish Government would have to be. The minnows end up with a disproportionate amount of influence if their support has to be "bought", and there is a potential lack of stability.
> 
> Diffficult to see at the moment how things will go, but it seems to me Podemos did much better yesterday than pre-election polls suggested, whilst Cuidadanos fell short of expectations.


I think _most_ people would agree that a coalition is a second best result of a general election, wouldn't they?

As for the pre election polls, no Podemos was tipped to get more than 69 seats actually... Ciudadanos really under performed








from El País 21st December


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think _most_ people would agree that a coalition is a second best result of a general election, wouldn't they?
> 
> As for the pre election polls, no Podemos was tipped to get more than 69 seats actually... Ciudadanos really under performed
> 
> ...


I was thinking of how things stood in the polls just a few months ago, when support for Podemos was down to about 13%, wasn't it?

This one from October 2015 shows them at 14.8%, lower than Cuidadanos.

http://www.electograph.com/2015/10/spain-october-2015-tns-demoscopia-poll.html


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> I was thinking of how things stood in the polls just a few months ago, when support for Podemos was down to about 13%, wasn't it?
> 
> This one from October 2015 shows them at 14.8%, lower than Cuidadanos.
> 
> SPAIN, October 2015. TNS Demoscopia poll ~ electograph


And a year ago they were topping the poll and some posters were telling us they would win......
One thing for Podemos and Cs supporters to bear in mind...many of them are idealistic and unaware of the compromises required in political life, indeed in life, and like Lib Dem supporters in the UK will desert their Party when, in their eyes, it 'betrays' them.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

And I should add, we old Laboristas and Socialistas have been tempered by the experience of actually gaining power...and realising the limitations imposed on our possibilities of radical action.
But it can be done. There can be change. Those who cast Tony Blair as a modern-day Attila the Hun overlook the many radical changes his governments brought to better the life of working people....Minimum Wage, tax and pension credits, cutting NHS waiting lists, Sure Start...not to mention adopting Maastricht's Social Chapter and the huge advances in equality that brought about.
If there is only 1 cm difference between the main Parties, as some cynics claim, then that narrow gap gives space enough for millions of people to be able to live better lives.
After all, what have the Parties of far Left and Right actually *done* for us?


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## el romeral (May 8, 2012)

Anyone selling up yet? Lol


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

This graphic clearly shows the North-South divide; it's like the UK only upside-down.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Some people here are predicting an agreement between the PP and the PSOE to allow the PP to govern and keep the new parties out of power. I wouldn't be surprised if that happened. Their macro-economic policies are not that dissimilar. The best we could hope for, in that case, is that the PSOE has enough leverage to push through some of its more progressive social policies and tone down some of the PP's more extreme ones.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Some people here are predicting an agreement between the PP and the PSOE to allow the PP to govern and keep the new parties out of power. I wouldn't be surprised if that happened. Their macro-economic policies are not that dissimilar. The best we could hope for, in that case, is that the PSOE has enough leverage to push through some of its more progressive social policies and tone down some of the PP's more extreme ones.


I don't think anything would surprise at this stage.
Judging from the electoral campaign the 2 biggest parties do seem to be quite worried about the rise of new parties. Much of their time was spent trying to put the fear of God into those that were thinking of voting Podemos for example, labelling them unresponsible and Communists, instead of repeatedly outlining their programme which is what I think they should have been doing.
Too much backstabbing, accusing and wallowing in the past and little projection and planning for the future imho


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Dangerous grounds, I know, but I've just been talking politics with a Spanish friend!

Question; why is it that PP and PSoE only need 50,000 votes per seat yet PoDEMoS need 70,000??

Is it also the same in UK that if one party doesn't have a clear majority, then anyone else can form a Government if they can get enough seats together? I hadn't realised that if PSoE and PoDEMOS got together (ha, ha!) then they could form the next Government.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

snikpoh said:


> Dangerous grounds, I know, but I've just been talking politics with a Spanish friend!
> 
> Question; why is it that PP and PSoE only need 50,000 votes per seat yet PoDEMoS need 70,000??
> 
> Is it also the same in UK that if one party doesn't have a clear majority, then anyone else can form a Government if they can get enough seats together? I hadn't realised that if PSoE and PoDEMOS got together (ha, ha!) then they could form the next Government.


It's not straightforward proportional representation. There is some obscure formula which favours the biggest parties. Izquierda Unida needed 461,000 votes for each of their two seats! 

Yes, as things stand there is no law that says the party with the most votes must govern. Rajoy was complaining about that before the election (he obviously knew what was going to happen) but it would need a change to the Constitution.


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## el romeral (May 8, 2012)

Strange system but you need more votes per seat in urban areas compared to the countryside or small towns.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Some people here are predicting an agreement between the PP and the PSOE to allow the PP to govern
> QUOTE
> 
> 
> What people???? Are they in the know, then


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Alcalaina said:
> 
> 
> > Some people here are predicting an agreement between the PP and the PSOE to allow the PP to govern
> ...


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> Dangerous grounds, I know, but I've just been talking politics with a Spanish friend!
> 
> Question; why is it that PP and PSoE only need 50,000 votes per seat yet PoDEMoS need 70,000??


It's the way the boundaries are drawn (sound familiar?) in Spain. In rural areas you need far fewer votes to win a seat than you do in the main cities. The traditional parties are strongest in the rural areas so they therefore need fewer vote to win their seats, whereas Podemos are stronger in the big cities.



snikpoh said:


> ...
> 
> Is it also the same in UK that if one party doesn't have a clear majority, then anyone else can form a Government if they can get enough seats together? I hadn't realised that if PSoE and PoDEMOS got together (ha, ha!) then they could form the next Government.


Yes it's pretty much the same everwhere. It's one the main arguments against PR as it makes these scenarios much more likely, and you often end up with some messy coalition that nobody voted for.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Alcalaina said:
> 
> 
> > Some people here are predicting an agreement between the PP and the PSOE to allow the PP to govern
> ...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> mrypg9 said:
> 
> 
> > Well I'm not going to name names, but Alcalá is known as the "cradle of Andalusian socialism" - ask your PSOE mates about it!
> ...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> mrypg9 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes,
> ...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I'm not 100% happy with PSOE proposals on labour laws. Some flexibility in hiring/firing is essential. PyMEs just can't afford such high redundancy payments and anyone in business knows that there are times when you have to cut your workforce to survive, labour costs usually being the highest item for any company.
What is important is transparency, the workforce having complete access to the books. A stake in ownership would help too.....


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Don't know if you need a twitter account to see this, just tweeted by Cesar Luena but it's on youtube as well apparently 


PSOE va a votar NO al PP / PSOE is going to vote NO to PP

https://twitter.com/PSOE/status/678...actions=1450710628&uid=2738073312&nid=244+590


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Much of their time was spent trying to put the fear of God into those that were thinking of voting Podemos for example, labelling them unresponsible and Communists, instead of repeatedly outlining their programme which is what I think they should have been doing.


Yes, they should. They should have been drawing attention to the fact that many of the policies involve spending money they haven't got, can't be done whilst in the Eurozone and that they have amongst their ranks people whose aims and objectives are alien to those of most people, not to mention those with links to policies rejected in Greece and which helped bankrupt Venezuela (whose people also rejected these policies last week).
I like some of Podemos' policies. I like their proposals for transparency, for local government reform, for constitutional reform and accountability in public life. PSOE must learn from these.
But I am wary of the poor economic understanding of how the world actually works rather than how you think it should. Podemos needs fewer academics and more business-minded people in its top echelons to add a dose of realism.


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

el romeral said:


> Anyone selling up yet? Lol


Chance'd be a fine thing!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

So Rivera, who said consistently before the election that he wouldn't be a part of any coalition, has now proposed a pact between the PP, PSOE and Cuidadanos, to keep Podemos out???? He's soon changed his tune.

Vídeo: Elecciones 20D: Rivera ofrece a PP y PSOE un acuerdo de legislatura con reformas concretas | España | EL PAÍS


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> So Rivera, who said consistently before the election that he wouldn't be a part of any coalition, has now proposed a pact between the PP, PSOE and Cuidadanos, to keep Podemos out???? He's soon changed his tune.
> 
> VÃ*deo: Elecciones 20D: Rivera ofrece a PP y PSOE un acuerdo de legislatura con reformas concretas | EspaÃ±a | EL PAÃ�S


That was then. This is now.

It's getting harder by the day to see a good outcome. A couple of things strike me: Rajoy has been rejected, Susana Diaz should keep her mouth shut.....oh, and Iglesias should dampen his ego a bit.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> So Rivera, who said consistently before the election that he wouldn't be a part of any coalition, has now proposed a pact between the PP, PSOE and Cuidadanos, to keep Podemos out???? He's soon changed his tune.
> 
> VÃ*deo: Elecciones 20D: Rivera ofrece a PP y PSOE un acuerdo de legislatura con reformas concretas | EspaÃ±a | EL PAÃ�S


It seems to me that PP, PSOE and Ciudadanos have a real fear of Podemos, (it made up a good part of their electoral speeches) and this fear might catapult them into this unhealthy, unstable and unlikely pact. How anything would ever get agreed on is anybody's guess so the situation we have now is not good, but a pact between these three would be a (shortlived) joke, which has only surfaced as a way to keep Podemos out, not as a real way forward leading to progress with the people of Spain in mind.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, they should. They should have been drawing attention to the fact that many of the policies involve spending money they haven't got, can't be done whilst in the Eurozone and that they have amongst their ranks people whose aims and objectives are alien to those of most people, not to mention those with links to policies rejected in Greece and which helped bankrupt Venezuela (whose people also rejected these policies last week).
> I like some of Podemos' policies. I like their proposals for transparency, for local government reform, for constitutional reform and accountability in public life. PSOE must learn from these.
> But I am wary of the poor economic understanding of how the world actually works rather than how you think it should. Podemos needs fewer academics and more business-minded people in its top echelons to add a dose of realism.


I know what you mean, but I think the PP and PSOE could do with large doses of realism (dare I say real people) rather than people who have made politics their life's work. You can't understand living from day to day in a 600€ job or pension from a seat in parliament any more than you can from the royal family


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I know what you mean, but I think the PP and PSOE could do with large doses of realism (dare I say real people) rather than people who have made politics their life's work. You can't understand living from day to day in a 600€ job or pension from a seat in parliament any more than you can from the royal family


Well, politics has been Iglesias' life's work, in one way or another. But yes, you're right which is why I would like to see PSOE pact with Podemos which has too many academics and not enough people with business experience in its upper echelons.
And do we really want to see the break up of Spain?
It's complicated.
Very....


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## el romeral (May 8, 2012)

Seems to me PP PSOE and C's is one of the few solutions at present - and likely not the worst ? :juggle:

If it goes to a new vote, do people radically change their voting preferences due to tactical voting or is the outcome likely to be the same again?

Can we ex pats vote in this? Something tells me we can't? Only been here 16 years lol.:confused2:


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

And I have real fear of anyone who thinks Varoufakis and Maduro are worth listening to, as Iglesias does...or did.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

el romeral said:


> Seems to me PP PSOE and C's is one of the few solutions at present - and likely not the worst ? :juggle:
> 
> If it goes to a new vote, do people radically change their voting preferences due to tactical voting or is the outcome likely to be the same again?
> 
> Can we ex pats vote in this? Something tells me we can't? Only been here 16 years lol.:confused2:


Answrs:
1) depends on what's negotiated
2)some do, some don't
3) if you couldn't vote first time round you can't expect to vote in the second, can you

and 

4) you are eligible for Spanish citizenship which comes with a vote....


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

el romeral said:


> Seems to me PP PSOE and C's is one of the few solutions at present - and likely not the worst ? :juggle:
> 
> If it goes to a new vote, do people radically change their voting preferences due to tactical voting or is the outcome likely to be the same again?
> 
> Can we ex pats vote in this? Something tells me we can't? Only been here 16 years lol.:confused2:


No, you have to be Spanish


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> And I have real fear of anyone who thinks Varoufakis and Maduro are worth listening to, as Iglesias does...or did.


Uh??? Iglesias and Maduro can't stand each other!

Maybe you're thinking of Monedero and Chaves. Monedero is no longer in Podemos and Chaves is dead.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pedro Sánchez has gone on record after his meeting with Rajoy this morning, to say that PSOE won't be supporting the PP at the head of the govt. 

https://www.facebook.com/pedro.sanchezperezcastejon/posts/1039596366061986


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Uh??? Iglesias and Maduro can't stand each other!
> 
> Maybe you're thinking of Monedero and Chaves. Monedero is no longer in Podemos and Chaves is dead.


Iglesias, Monedero, many others were supporters of Chavismo in Venezuela, now a bankrupt country with rampant inflation and one of the world's highest murder rates. Iglesias participated in the Syriza eve-of-poll rally before the first elections they won and before the disastrous handling of the bail out negotiations plunged Greece deeper into the you-know-what.
These guys need tempering through the hard knocks of expediency, contingency. You have to see the world as it is before you can change it, said Karl.
So what's not to be wary of?

But having said that.....a shot of adrenalin can work wonders on tired bodies....
So put experience and wisdom together with fresh ideas and energy....a positive synergy, no...?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> It seems to me that PP, PSOE and Ciudadanos have a real fear of Podemos, (it made up a good part of their electoral speeches) and this fear might catapult them into this unhealthy, unstable and unlikely pact. How anything would ever get agreed on is anybody's guess so the situation we have now is not good, but a pact between these three would be a (shortlived) joke, which has only surfaced as a way to keep Podemos out, not as a real way forward leading to progress with the people of Spain in mind.


I think so too. Also, I fear that if this came to pass it could provoke an angry reaction from those who voted for Podemos if their party, which gained over 20% of the votes cast and many more than Cuidadanos, was sidelined whereas a party with far lower support was a part of the Government. So much for all the fine talk about a new kind of politics and sweeping away the corrupt old guard, if you propose going into Government with them just 3 days after the election just to get your taste of power.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> I think so too. Also, I fear that if this came to pass it could provoke an angry reaction from those who voted for Podemos if their party, which gained over 20% of the votes cast and many more than Cuidadanos, was sidelined whereas a party with far lower support was a part of the Government. So much for all the fine talk about a new kind of politics and sweeping away the corrupt old guard, if you propose going into Government with them just 3 days after the election *just to get your taste of power.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> That is, with respect, _*your*_ interpretation. What power will Cs in fact have if what they propose comes to fruition? They will be bag carriers for PSOE.
> Surely the fact that Podemos is not 100% committed to maintaining the unity of Spain is an important factor in any negotiations? Might not Rivera be acting in good faith? Why always assume politicians act for venal reasons? Is that how you would behave if you were in his shoes?
> ...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

How did you feel about the Parties in France collaborating to deny the FN power? Some candidates withdrew to allow tactical voting.
The fact is that you do what you think is right for country and Party. My view is that PSOE and Podemos should together seek support from IU and other Parties and go for a simple majority.
Anyone who takes seriously what anyone says before the outcome of elections is idealistic, to say the least. But Rivera should have put his brain in gear before he opened his mouth and pronounced on events whose outcome was at the time unpredictable.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> That is, with respect, _*your*_ interpretation. What power will Cs in fact have if what they propose comes to fruition? They will be bag carriers for PSOE.
> Surely the fact that Podemos is not 100% committed to maintaining the unity of Spain is an important factor in any negotiations? Might not Rivera be acting in good faith? Why always assume politicians act for venal reasons? Is that how you would behave if you were in his shoes?
> And be honest....if Podemos were a right-wing Party like the FN or UKIP, would you be so keen to see them have any decisive influence?
> These negotiations will go on for months and should be conducted openly and for the good of the country as well as Party advantage.
> That's one of the definitions of being 'statesman- like'.



I didn't say it was anything other than my opinion - to which I am entitled, as is everyone else to theirs.

Latest reports are that Sanchez is having none of it anyway, and I think the better of him for that.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> How did you feel about the Parties in France collaborating to deny the FN power? Some candidates withdrew to allow tactical voting.
> The fact is that you do what you think is right for country and Party. My view is that PSOE and Podemos should together seek support from IU and other Parties and go for a simple majority.
> Anyone who takes seriously what anyone says before the outcome of elections is idealistic, to say the least. But Rivera should have put his brain in gear before he opened his mouth and pronounced on events whose outcome was at the time unpredictable.


They took that action before the election was held. If people had wanted to support the FN that strongly, they could still have done so.

If we are not to take seriously anything a politician says before an election, what is the point of having a manifesto?

And if we can't trust what they say before an election, how can we trust what they may say after it, including any talk of "just doing what's best for the country"?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R said:


> They took that action before the election was held. If people had wanted to support the FN that strongly, they could still have done so.
> 
> If we are not to take seriously anything a politician says before an election, what is the point of having a manifesto?


A Manifesto is a statement of aims and intentions. No-one can predict whether or not those aims and intentions can be fulfilled. Harold MacMillan, when asked what he most feared, replied 'Events, dear boy'.
A Manifesto should make plain values and directions. It is not a step-by-step guide for government.
Sad but true.


And yes, people did support the FN but the other Parties ganged up to defeat them, employing tactical voting. Just as well and allowed...but a deliberate strategy.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R;9003226?
And if we can't trust what they say before an election said:


> You can't 'trust' politicians to actually carry out what they say they intend to do - and it's naïve to think you can- because they cannot control events. Could Tsipras control the ECB? Could Zapatero stop people taking out unwise mortgages? Could Blair control the actions of the Federal Reserve?
> 
> Most politicians know well that unqualified promises can return like the albatross. I never made an unqualified pledge or promise when seeking election, or at any time, unless I had 100% control over events, a very rare occurrence.
> 
> ...


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