# Very confused about DVLA and car in Portugal



## Etchy Boy (Oct 16, 2012)

Hi guys, Im hoping somebody can help me understand this, because I've even phoned DVLA up today and I'm still confused.

Ok, I've had my car here for a few months and therefore my UK 90 day EU cover on the insurance has come to an end. In fact the full insurance policy comes to an end in a few weeks anyway so that's fine.

I'm not sure yet how I want to proceed re matriculation ... as I'm thinking possibly to head over to spain in a couple of months and tour there for a few months, then I may take the car back to the UK or attempt to matriculate it. So for now, all I want to do is insure the car here until the summer (cover for Portugal/Spain) and as long as I don't break the 6 month rule in either country, I'm good.

Getting another UK policy isn't an option as Im not in the UK, and obtaining 90 day EU cover doesnt make sense. I have already spoken to a company in Portugal who can give me insurance to cover me for Portugal/Spain for a decent price. So far so good.

Ok, so my UK road tax expires in Jan and I know I need to have a valid tax disc even when I'm in here or take the car to Spain (and wherever else I may go). I can renew the disc online, no probs, since I have a valid MOT for another 9 months and I still have the UK insurance in Jan.

However, when I looked on DVLA's website for latest info, I learnt something new. They say that you can't tax a vehicle unless it's insured (makes sense), and they check this via the MIB database (mib.org.uk)

I phoned DVLA up to ask them how this works if I get insured by a company over here which I was going to do this week ... because even if you buy a tax disc and after this your car is no longer listed in the MIB database, you get a written warning then a fine as you're technically 'driving uninsured'. After speaking to a couple of peeps from DVLA, what they tell me is that it's only UK insurers in the MIB database and to get UK car tax I have to use a UK insurance company.

I'd rather not, since getting extended EU cover from a UK company will be soooo much more expensive, and besides, Im not driving it in the UK at all so doesnt make sense to me. From my point of view, I want to stay legal ... I have an MOT, I'll have insurance over here from the EU firm.... it's just the road tax.

One thing I was thinking was maybe there's a way to pay Portuguese road tax on a UK-registered vehicle when it hasn't been imported/matriculated ... dont think this is possible tho. Besides, that would mean declaring the car SORN in the UK and I can't even do that legally ... as DVLA state "Your vehicle must be in and remain in Great Britain to make a SORN."

Very confused guys, I want to do the right thing, and as I don't know yet what my future plans are with regards to keeping the car here (or how long I want to stay here for), it makes sense in the short term to just make sure the MOT/insurance/tax are up2date during the time my car will be in Europe (at least until summer). But I can't buy road tax with EU insurance from a non-UK insurance company and I can't declare the car SORN ... wtf.

What do other people do in this situation when they have EU cover for 90 days and keep a car here for 180? I assume extend EU cover with the UK-based insurance company?

Or if there's somebody on here who is using an EU-based insurance company for their UK car, how did you deal with the fact that your car isn't legally taxed via DVLA (and what did u do if u had to renew the tax disc in that timeframe without having ur details in the MIB database?)

Long post I know, I just want to get the info across ... am I missing something obvious?

Thx,
Etch


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

You cannot road tax a UK registered car in Portugal, nor can you MOT it, a UK car can only be MOT'd legally in the UK, I say this purely because it's one of the myths bandied about.

If information DVLA is giving you about database and insurance is correct then you really have little option but to insure through UK, the point your probably missing about people who insure UK overstayed cars here is they don't bother about UK Road Tax.

Your easiest option is to re-new Road Tax whilst you still have UK Insurance and then Insure through a company here, bearing in mind the points I make on Residence below.

Afraid on the legal bit your way out it not just about car but Residence which should be done at 3 months no longer than 4, which also requires you to register your UK Driving Licence with IMTT, plus as a Resident you cannot then legally drive a UK registered car.
Popping over to Spain doesn't count as a way of re-setting the clock, the 183 day rule for cars + their driver is in any 12 month period which is why UK residents have problems with insuring for extended periods.
Matriculation 1st you have to Register your Residence, and apart from the previous 12 months ownership & Residence requirements must be commenced within 6 months of leaving UK


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## notlongnow (May 21, 2009)

Canoeman is right, if you want to be properly legit, you have to think about residency and your driving licence after 3 months too. If you don't live at the address on your UK licence it's technically invalid until you get a piece of paper from the IMTT (actually one of the more straightforward pieces of PT paperwork to obtain).


If you end up taking the car back to the UK, you will at least find that car hire is cheap as chips for the next few months until the tourist season starts again - if you're not sure of your long term plans, then it's probably best to hang fire on matriculation etc.


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## loonytoon (Feb 11, 2009)

ignoring all the issues you have with being over in PT for more than 183 days, residency etc the easy answer to your immediate problem is to grab a flight over to UK and tax the car at a Post Office - as long as your insurance is valid at the start of the month it is being taxed from you will have no problems. if you try to do it online it needs to have more than a month's validity in order for the database to show valid insurance (for car tax purposes).

jeff


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## Etchy Boy (Oct 16, 2012)

Thx guys. Re the answers about getting the car Taxed while I still have UK insurance, doesnt work guys. I can do this sure, online too and the timing will work.

But like I was saying, even if you tax your car and then after that you're no longer in the MIB database as having UK insurance (because it expires), you will be flagged up by the DVLA and can expect a fine. They don't just check at the point of taxing a vehicle nowadays, it's about finding out who is driving illegally.

It's difficult for me to figure this out purely beause I don't kow my long term plans at all ... so matriculation just seems silly to do. There is a lot of illogic when it comes to law ... e.g. the insurance company I spoke to here will insure a UK-plate for an annual premium at minimum even when they know the car can't be kept for that long legally.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

The bottom line is you can only keep the car in Portugal for a maximum of 183 days in any 12 month period, as you should have by now Registered your Residence then your not supposed to drive that car taxed, insured or otherwise, unless you've started matricultion.

ok your plans might be fluid but the other consideration you seem to have forgotten is that after 6 months you are no longer a UK Resident and lose most of the rights that that Residence gives you in UK.

Course they'll insure you, they want your premium, the question is though would they pay out a claim if as you say legally it can't be kept here that long??


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## miradouro (Jan 19, 2010)

*Abbeygate?*

Hi Etchy Boy.

Have you tried the specialist insurance company Insurance in Spain in English ?

They might just be able to help resolve your current problem.

I am 'between countries' like yourself (in my case, the UK, Germany, Belgium, France, Spain and Portugal), and they seemed very flexible on full-term (12 month) green card cover, plus were able to provide the DVLA code for the tax disc.

Naturally, Abbeygate is more expensive (about double) of a basic Portuguese insurance... but they _are _competittive against UK insurance with the 3-month green card only (side note: car insurance in Portugal is infamously low... makes up for the ridiculous price of cars/import taxes and road tolls).

One tip is to keep petrol receipts, toll receipts, ferry tickets, parking tickets etc. from Spain/France/UK/Germany so that if you are unfortunate enough to be checked by the GNR/Transito police in Portugal, you have something to substantiate claims about not being in Portugal for more than 183 days. The process here is often to fine the poor _estrangeiro _first, then check actual non-compliance with the law later. I know many people who have been fined despite being here perfectly legitimately (at their 2nd homes) on UK plates... but as with many things in Portugal, it was such a hassle to claim against the fine: better to take the (expensive) hit than spend months in offices filling out claim forms. 

Another tip is never to mention you are 'at your 2nd home' or even 'living' here... better to simply say you are on holiday (even if fluent in Portuguese, speak English to the cops).


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## Etchy Boy (Oct 16, 2012)

Hey Miradouro,

Very useful info ... especially re receipts and things over the border. I've sent a request for that company to call me back.

Much appreciated dude,
Etch!


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## Etchy Boy (Oct 16, 2012)

miradouro said:


> Hi Etchy Boy.
> 
> Have you tried the specialist insurance company Insurance in Spain in English ?


Spoke to AbbeyGate today, the girl said they are on the MID database ... not sure how to double-check so will take her word for it.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

You could try here askMID but I will repeat the obvious, that your situation is not the same as miradoura's, and being insured doesn't get you around the 183 days rule in any 12 month period *that only applies to Non Portuguese Residents* and the requirement that you register your residence in Portugal, one of the downsides of the crisis is the likleyhood of being caught is greater.


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## Etchy Boy (Oct 16, 2012)

canoeman said:


> You could try here askMID but I will repeat the obvious, that your situation is not the same as miradoura's, and being insured doesn't get you around the 183 days rule in any 12 month period *that only applies to Non Portuguese Residents* and the requirement that you register your residence in Portugal, one of the downsides of the crisis is the likleyhood of being caught is greater.


Im not trying to get around the 183 day rule dude, already mentioned that at the start ... if neither me nor my car are here for more than 183 days per year then Im not breaking any laws ... this is all about doing things properly but following the law sometimes isnt easy as there is a lot of contradiction involved.

Thx for the link, already cheked there, its only useful once you are insured by someone to check if you're in the database ... didn't see a way to list all insurees who use it.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Etchy Boy said:


> Ok, I've had my car here for a few months and therefore my UK 90 day EU cover on the insurance has come to an end. In fact the full insurance policy comes to an end in a few weeks anyway so that's fine.


Yes dude you did start post mentioning 183 day rule, but don't seem to realize that there are other Rules that take precedence, as you've been here +90 days now, you should have Registered your Residency

Can you be deported No, but you can be fined for not doing so and once you've registered your Residency then there are other things that affect you and your car

1. You cannot legally drive it as a Resident unless you've started Matriculation, you can be fined, plus you might be given the option to Matriculate or remove car from country.

2. You must Register your UK Driving Licence with IMTT or exchange it for a Portuguese one, if you don't you can be fined for not Registering Licence and fined for Driving on a Licence not registered to your address.

There isn't really any contradiction in the laws, it's when you pass the 3 month stay that Law or what is required changes, it's a long time since you could "holiday" in Portugal for 12 months then 6 months without Registering or asking for permission to Reside.


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## Etchy Boy (Oct 16, 2012)

yeah man i feel ya ... im confusing myself purely because i dont know what the future holds with me being here, depends on finances and being able to make things work ... sometimes things happen to help us make certain decisions ... guess this is a sign to just matriculate and then i got no choice but to make things work here.

Anyway merry xmas dude


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Unfortunately the benefits that the EU have given us to work, study, live or retire in any EU country also have certain constraints that UK nationals probably find a bid harder to cope with as where not used to ID cards, registering residence etc, I'm not saying you should or should not do or follow procedures but you should be aware of them and the possible consequences.
Best of luck and a Happy Christmas


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## miradouro (Jan 19, 2010)

I agree with Canoeman, every country has its bureaucracy and laws... Portugal's craziest one is its car import tax.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

miradouro said:


> I agree with Canoeman, every country has its bureaucracy and laws... Portugal's craziest one is its car import tax.


Two things you can matriculate cheaply it's only slightly dearer than similar procedure in UK, much of the cost being the fee charged by UK Consulate, import tax on a personal import depends on car if you import a conservative low emmision vehicle it's little different to matriculation if you import a large cc and high emmisions your penalized


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## miradouro (Jan 19, 2010)

canoeman - I agree up to a point. The only trouble being that Portugal's criteria for 'cheap' imports assumes one was 12-months resident in a single EU country prior to arriving, and had plenty of time to study Portuguese car import tax and assemble the necessary paperwork to prove one's history of residence/car ownership/car tax status beforehand.

Fine for the eternally prudent and bureaucracy-minded: less fine for those who actually have a life. 

The fact is that many people arriving in/retiring to Portugal have bought a car for the move, then realise that, because they have not owned it for 12 months where they came from, they are forced to sell the car or pay a one-off tax of several thousand euros (often exceeding the car's value). Then they go into shock at seeing the ridiculous new price of cars in Portugal, most of them imported by a family-led monopoly linked to the former fascist dictator Salazar (Grupo Caetano). So their shiny Mercedes cabrio dreams are traded in for some crappy battered 12-year-old Clio, which costs exactly the same: only Greece and Denmark in the EU have such ridiculous import charges.

I'd have sympathy for ripping off the (comparatively rich) _estrangeiros _if I didn't know how Portuguese small businesses cannot compete because the vehicle market is so skewed by these import taxes and sales taxes. 

Imagine. You're a dynamic entrepreneur. You're already on the dog-eared end of Europe trying to eke out a business amid the _crise_, the questionable productivity figures and the lowest education levels in the entire EU-27. You find you need to travel 1000-2000 km to deliver products to the bulk of your customers. This distance adds two, three days' driver costs to every return journey. But then the government doubles the cost of the vehicle you need to buy to make that journey. Then it throws in the highest road tolls per km in Western Europe. So you decide to avoid the shiny EU-funded motorways and put your freight on minor roads: add another day of driver wages per trip. Finally the government makes fuel 25 cents a litre more expensive than your nearest neighbour (Spain).

If you're a dynamic entrepreneur, you might just think twice, and perhaps look at Iberian industrial hubs like Valladolid, Zaragoza or Vitoria. 

I reckon this is etchy boy's situation: do I commit to Portugal? can I really make a go of it here? or do I evaluate all options? and until I make a decision, how do I navigate the paperwork?


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Your 1st point: These are EU regulations and basics apply to all EU countries with still some local interpretations allowed it also doesn't have to be Residence in 1 EU country only, If you look at UK requirements for "matriculation" there's little difference. Portugal contrary to popular belief operates within EU Law.

2nd point: If people haven't done their research then they will get caught out, there is more than enough information available everywhere not just on forums, moving anywhere requires a bit of planning and forethought in lots of areas not just cars.
I'm not into blaming ex dictators, prime ministers etc and don't see it as constructive or a forum topic.

3rd point maybe you should check import taxes on commercial vehicles, I don't believe Portuguese tolls are the highest in Europe and currently 2c a km cheaper than Spain and 3c a km less than France might be different for commercial traffic, but there must be some commercial advantage in using all the tolled roads otherwise the logging lorries wouldn't, paper is hardly a high profit margin business. 
Maybe a dynamic entrepreneur can take advantage of Portugal's low wages to offset other costs?

I've no idea of Etchy Boys situation, but he has made the mistake of not being aware of the various factors that go into a "move" temporary or otherwise, and misinterpreting the 183 day car "rule" which at the end of the day unfortunately create problems.


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## shanagarry (Dec 28, 2012)

You can get UK cover from Saga - that covers you to drive in Europe for the period of the cover. In short you are not constrained to 90 days. It's not as expensive as Abbeygate. If you are under 50 this won't work for you.

You will probably be aware that European cover is based on the car's replacement value whereas UK cover is based primarily on the driver's driving record/claims history and age - the car is further down the pecking order.


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