# Living expenses



## Sharoncf

Can anyone tell me what is a reasonable monthly living allowance if there are no housing (rent) expenses?

Cheers
Sharon


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## travelling-man

Sharon

Welcome to the forum.

That's a bit like asking how long is a piece of string. 

It'll largely depend on what part of Portugal and how one chooses to live.


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## Sharoncf

Hi Travelling-man

We have a house in a small village near Viseu. We are here for three months with the view to moving here permanently. My husband is Portuguese but has been in Australia for 28 years ( aside for our annual 4 week holiday here). We have some land so will be able to grow much of our vegetables. We will need to,purchase and run a car. We will also need to put heating into the house but have a ready supply of wood, any suggestions in relation to heating would be appreciated. So I am just curious about how much a month we would need for living expenses.


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## travelling-man

As I said, costs of living vary immensely from person to person so it's hard to narrow it down to an accurate figure and even if it were possible, you're asking people to divulge what most would consider private information (on a public forum) and I guess most people wouldn't be prepared to do that. 

Probably the best thing you could do is look at how you choose to live and work out prices of your key/important items and then do a Google on cost of living in Portugal and then compare like to like.

This forum is a brilliant source of information for people moving to PT but I think you need to do as I've just suggested in this particular case.

As regards car prices, they're through the roof here but one just has to accept that & if it'll help, you can expect to pay something in the region of E2500 for a Renault Megane made in 2000 with about 130K kms on the clock and unleaded petrol is about E1.60 per litre.


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## canoeman

Don't underestimate the heating you'll reguire, winters might be short but can be very cold.
C/h around €6000 whatever you do don't let anyone tell you gas bottled C/h is cheap, it's the dearest to run. If you've wood go for c/h with a back boile, with. Look solar for hot water added in, all helps to reduce cost of living

As TM says all depends on your lifestyle, try here Cost of Living in Portugal. Prices in Portugal.


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## Sharoncf

Thank you both for the good advice I will follow through


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## jerryceltner

Hi Canoe,
Central heating €6000.00 ....which equates to 5000 litres of fue roughly. That's if you use diesel as we do. We have a seven bedroomed villa and the fuel bill was €1300.00 over the winter running approx 6 hours a day occacionally longer. I did top up with air con units and our costs for the whole year were just over €1800.00 for electricity and 2 tons of wood at €70 per ton. No gas to speak of as cook on electric and have a second kitchen plumbed in for gas just in case we have a power cut. Therefore I think C/H would be somewhat lower. I run spread sheets for everything we spend, absolutely everything. It's not that I am worried about our outgoings but as I am retired I need a bit of brain stimulation and it passes the time away.......lol


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## anapedrosa

This is a question that i have been considering carefully. I believe the average family income in Portugal is less than 1000E a month, but most people I know would not feel comfortable living with that.
I have a good friend, living in a Lisbon suburb, who tells me that she a single mom with two children (1 in university and the other in college) manages on 1800E a month, with a bit of help from her parents for the children's tuition. 

However, I have a family member, who tells me that he and his wife require 4000E a month, as they have high energy costs. Older couple with a full time maid. Another family member lives on around 1000E a month, no maid frugal do it yourself people. - both own their homes, no mortgages.

Energy costs and increasing taxes appear to be the biggest financial concerns. Personally, we are targeting a budget of 2000E a month for everything (no mortgage or rent, new energy efficient home, includes modest vacation funds). But, I can only feel comfortable doing this knowing that we have a safety buffer just in case we are wrong. 

So as previous posts said, a big range. But, this gives you an idea what others that I would term as middle class manage with.


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## canoeman

jerryceltner said:


> Hi Canoe,
> Central heating €6000.00 ....which equates to 5000 litres of fue roughly. That's if you use diesel as we do. We have a seven bedroomed villa and the fuel bill was €1300.00 over the winter running approx 6 hours a day occacionally longer. I did top up with air con units and our costs for the whole year were just over €1800.00 for electricity and 2 tons of wood at €70 per ton. No gas to speak of as cook on electric and have a second kitchen plumbed in for gas just in case we have a power cut. Therefore I think C/H would be somewhat lower. I run spread sheets for everything we spend, absolutely everything. It's not that I am worried about our outgoings but as I am retired I need a bit of brain stimulation and it passes the time away.......lol


installation, not running cost, should have made it clearer jerry your diesel must be cheap that would only buy about 4500ltr at our current prices, I also run spread sheets for major normal household expenditure and cars, just not food, entertainment i.e going out, meals holidays, garden or dogs.
so on from Ana's post for 2011 our basic outgoings where 660€ pm, this year despite crisis and inflation is running slightly less and I added dogs into spread sheets this year.


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## travelling-man

This raises some interesting questions. 

We lived through a colder than normal winter last year (in a small rented cottage), only had electric heating & although I didn't keep a record, would guess our heating costs were something in the region of E2000.

We've now renovated the top part of our new home and have central heating (powered by either a wood burning or diesel boilers) that gives us 7 radiators upstairs and 5 downstairs (I'll switch the downstairs radiators off because they're only empty store rooms at the moment.

I've been quoted E45 per square metre of firewood and green diesel is currently a little over E1 per litre...... I'm told that wood briquettes is cheaper than firewood but don't have a price for that yet.

So my question is, am I being given a reasonable price for firewood and is burning wood much cheaper than diesel or is it only marginally cheaper to burn wood....... if costs aren't too dramatically different, I'd be inclined to use diesel to save having to clean out the woodburner every day.


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## canoeman

In our region household diesel is 1.309ltr, green isn't that agricultural very hefty fines for illegal use or selling for non agricultural use.

Great thing with diesel you can get instant heat, downside with wood burner you only get heat when it's lit, my personal preference is diesel and wood backboiler, (ideally I'd have a wood pellet back boiler but can't find one we like or large enough for house) both operate C/H & hot water, but when wood back boiler lit diesel shuts down. Plus a wood burner gives some homeliness to a room and direct heat

Don't think I'd turn downstairs rads off totally as they'll act a bit like underfloor heating and keep total house warmer.

Wood 45€ m2? m3 sounds a but pricey, we pay 100€ a tractor load that's about 3 m3

Which is cheaper, bit like your answer to cost of living, depends on what heat you consider comfortable, the cheapest to run is a high efficiency wood pellet boiler or fire boiler combo.

Choice between diesel and wood, I wouldn't just have one or the other as they really perform different functions and my wife would have everything working 24/7


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## travelling-man

So is green/verde diesel different to the diesel one should use for central heating or is it the same?

If it is different, is it a different price?


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## canoeman

Diesel for C/H is called Gasoleo Aquecimento

I think but not certain that the green your referring to is for Tractors/agricultural vehicles, reguires licences to sell and buy and very very hefty fines for seller and user if caught for illegal use.


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## travelling-man

OK thanks...... I'll be sure to ask for Gasoleo Aquecimento. 

Presumably they'll usually deliver larger amounts?


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## canoeman

Ours won't deliver less than 50lts only max is size of tanker and your access


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## jerryceltner

Hi again,
We have 16 double rads, 4 air con units that heat in the winter and 5 ceiling fans.
I use red diesel and the last time I bought any was in June and paid €1.24. I know prices have gone up since then. 
Wood you can get anywhere from €70 to 120 a ton. Electricity is now very expensive in comparison to last year.
My wife, 15 year old daughter, our 2 cats and myself live here.
I was looking at last years spread sheet and our total spend was €23,386.84 for the year and this included absolutely everything.
If you factor out our daughter with books to buy, school lunches, mobile phone, pocket money, private Portuguese lessons, food costs, medicines and taking her to school and bringing her back this comes down to €16,159.49
We also bought fly screens at €1850 and Sat internet €421. As they are one offs I factor these out also as they last for years which brings total down the to €13,888.49 which works out at just under
€1,160 per month.
I have factored in our 3 flights to the UK with Easyjet which came to €923.86


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## anapedrosa

canoeman said:


> so on from Ana's post for 2011 our basic outgoings where 660€ pm, this year despite crisis and inflation is running slightly less and I added dogs into spread sheets this year.


I find that very encouraging.


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## anapedrosa

jerryceltner said:


> I was looking at last years spread sheet and our total spend was €23,386.84 for the year and this included absolutely everything.


Also encouraging - Canoeman and Jerry - I keep detailed spreadsheets as well, so these numbers give me confidence that I am in the right range for planning.


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## tonycharlton

Hi Sharon
as others have already mentioned, cars are very expensive here. "2,500 upwards for a 1999 car is common. I have bought a wood burning stove which has 2 fans in it, cost 600 euros and wood is about 30 a cubic metre. This lasts me for about 6 weeks at least if the fire is used every day, which it is not. It is difficult to tell someone else what their living expenses would be but if there is no mortgage or HP then 600 euros + would be enough for basics I think.


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## Sharoncf

Thank you Tony that is very encouraging. And thanks about the idea of the fans I had not thought about that.


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## greycharlestoner

Hi Tony

Once again, thanks for your and Siobhan's helpful health advise.

As the subject of cars is on this thread, what is the annual MOT like?

This is because my little ''hobby'' Citroen 2cv flies thru it in the UK every year.

It rarely goes out in the rain, and has been thoroughly rust proofed from new, and was built in Portugal tho is now RHD .

regards

Geoff

PS I am also very interested in the heating in winter discussion, I guess the downside of being near mountains inland is going to be very chilly days and nights!!


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## jerryceltner

Just a quick answer
If you are on Portuguese plates then the MOT will be about €27 but if not and you need to matriculate then the first MOT will be about €76 but a lot of paperwork will need to be done before you get to this point. The MOT's are thorough but if it's something small they usually let it through. A retest is about €7.50.
As regards winter heating we live in central Portugal near Tomar and we need heating usually between end of October to the end of March. The evenings get very chilly and we do ocasionally have a frost in the morning but the afternoons as usually very pleasant.
Being near mountains I feel you would need more heating than we do or at least several jumpers......lol


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## tonycharlton

Sorry Charles, no idea about MOT, mine is due in Jan. I live in the middle of hills and woods with a large river about 200 metres away. It does get a little chilly here but a wood fire keeps the place warm.


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## canoeman

you've actually a club for 2CV's CLUB 2CV/DYANE DE PORTUGAL currently for this year road tax would be (27.51 + 56.46) x 1.15 = €96.57 2013 is forecast as €98.67


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## juliedawnfox

*Heating in Portugal*

I just thought I'd throw another heating option into the mix. We installed central heating about 3 years ago which runs off pellets.

Installation costs, including fire & boiler and 6 radiators = approx €5000
Running costs= needs electricity to ignite pellets and run the pump and fan and I don't know how much that costs (not a lot compared to running electric heaters, anyway). We average a 15kg sack of pellets per day through the winter and last year we used 110 sacks at €3.75 each, i.e. €412.50. 

If we hadn't just had to replace our hot water heater in an emergency situation, we'd probably have got one that would heat the water during the winter, too. 

We get the winter's supply of pellets delivered in one go, store them in the cellar and job done. 

Worth considering, anyway.


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## almadena13

This is very informtive, thank you. My wife, I and the dog lived in Portugal for a year in 2010. To be honest I wished we had stayed, but that is a long boring story! However, we hope to return within a couple of years for good. Although we didn't take much notice on our cost of living in 2010, we have been working on needing 24000euro a year to live when we return. Perhaps looking at your calculations of 16k, we may have gone a little over the top! That aside it does depend on how you choose to live, we like a couple of coffees out a week and perhaps a meal at a reasonable local restaurant 2 or 3 times a month. Forgive me for prying, would that be on a similar basis to you? Our only additional luxory would be Sky TV which we would have to factor in.

Going back to the origin of the thread, those who can remember early 2010, I can confirm the winter evenings can be incredibly chilly and we are on gas bottles, couldn't believe how quickly using the central heating we drained the first gas bottle! We lit the fire after that and put on an extra jumper for the rest of the winter! The cost of heating in the winter is something serious to consider.


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## canoeman

You can get just about all the UK channels without Sky but not the pay to view, that saving alone is worth what £60pm?


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## almadena13

Hi

I am afraid I need my weekly fix of football and golf - wife not so impressed about the footy bit though! 

Have to say this is an excellent forum, much useful information flying around. 

Is the cost of the Sky Sports Package similar to UK prices - not interested in the films add on though?


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## canoeman

If you go down Sky route *you cannot buy* it here, although there are companies, individuals that would set it up for you. Your package costs would be same as UK.

You have to pretend that the whole Sky package is based at a UK address and paid in £ sterling, if Sky get wind that it's not in UK then they would have to disconnect you, their Broadcasting Licence does not cover anywhere outside UK & NI, it's only because of the overspill of beam that where able to receive Sky or the FTA channels


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## davidgraham

Hi, as everyone has mentioned it depends how you want to live, if you need to travel out everyday in a car, go to restuarants posh clothes and exotic holidays then yes you will need a lot, i have a house fully paid for, off the grid finished to a good standard, every thing is run of solar with wood burner and back bioler, I tend to spend more time going round to nieghbours adegas for a drink and somthing to eat to soicialise and also have several acres of land for growing fruit, veg, and keeping chickens Goats etc, so really only spend on stuff I cant grow like coffee, sugar, soap and so on, in the summer myself, wife, german shepard, (fed on free bones from the butchers) and several cats could live off 100 euros a week easily as much of our time was spent on the land, winter was not to much more as we cut most are own wood and were busy in the Autum preserving and putting away foods for the winter including 800gal of wine and ten gal of Agaudenta (home made), how we lived was very comfortable and done out of enjoyment not necessity, so it all depends what resources you have and what you enjoy doing.


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## Sharoncf

Hi Davidgraham.


Thank you, that is what I thought. We have land and will grow our food and probably some chickens. Not sure about the goats. When we don't grow grapes but Fernando's cousin does and we help,with picking. We have some olive trees so this year we are going to see if we will have enough for our own use. We buy meat. Coffee milk etc but get the rest from Fernando's cousin and once our things grow we will repay in kind although we do that now in other ways. We don't need to go to restaurants or even cafes very often. Although we did go to a small restaurant in Nellas last week, it is owned by Fernando's cousins girlfriends parents. We had three courses plus wine for 12 Euros for both of us. The food was good and fresh so you can still eat out occasionally without breaking the bank. I agree with you it depends on how you want to live. We just want quality of life and good fresh food and good friends


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