# Can anyone explain water rights ?



## frannrod (Apr 23, 2008)

Hello everyone. My husband and I (I'm the fran, he's the rod) are planning to move to Spain in a couple of years' time. We want to go rural, no golf complex or city living. After a few "reccies" we've decided on our area. For all sorts of financial reasons, it makes sense for us to buy a building plot, engage an architect, and get a house at least to shell stage by the time we move out. We need some info on water, and building licences.

We were over there recently and looked at a few plots. One in particular appealed to us. It was covered in scrub and bang in the middle of a lot of orange groves (it had access). We've checked at the Land Registry - its 13,000 plus sq. m, classed as rustico and the use is agrario. 

Water - The estate agent told us it had "water rights" but the document he gave us simply says it has the right to irrigate 3.3 sq m. Lovely for a few tomatoes no doubt, but not sure about running a shower and washing machine! I've seen some info on another plot which stated it had water rights for the xxx no. of trees on the plot which was (apparently) "necessary for the building licence".

Building - the estate agent says you can build on any plot over 10,000 sq m, which we've heard before, but I'm thinking there must be "zoning laws" of some sort?

Can anyone explain or direct me to a book or website which (a) explains the mysteries of water rights, and (b) tells me how to find out if any particular area/plot is likely to get a building licence before we fork out money to an architect?

Sorry for the long post, and thanks in advance for any info.


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## felix (Mar 24, 2008)

First of all, my advice as a Spanish lawyer is that before you sign anything or give any money you must check personally in the Town Hall if building is permitted on the type of land you are determined to buy. Do not believe a seller or an Agent who tells you that you can build on X square metres. You have to obtain from Planning Officers in Town Hall a certificate of your future land in which is stated what and how you can build in your land.

If you are planning to erect a house or do any major repairs or alterations to existing ones involving structural components or even for minor construction works you must apply for a permission. In Spain the local planning system controls the use of land and what's built on it through two types of license

*a) Minor construction work permit “Licencia de Obra menor”*

To find out what kind of works are considered minor you have to check the local regulation. You may contact the planning department of your local planning authority for advice requesting application form and decide on permit type. It is often a good idea to meet a planning officer for an informal discussion before you proceed. You will not be charged for this. Each Town Hall has his own ordinance but generally speaking under this type are included:

Repair work without alteration of the volume or the principal use of the facilities and services of communal use
Building works which are wholly internal.
Works that do not affect the external composition or structure 
For instance: Changing the floors, changing the tiles, building or removing partitions in the interior of the house, placing or removing doors, windows, gratings, tiling a garden or terrace, adding decorative girders/pergolas to a garden or terrace, raising the walls of the garden.

_Documentation required _
Application with description of the works, proposed use, budget, owner and/or builder identification and location. You should keep one sealed copy of the application form

*b) Major construction work permit “Licencia de Obra mayor”*

For undertaking works such as new buildings, alterations, demolitions or even the construction of a swimming pool you need to apply for a “Licencia de Obra mayor”

_Documentation required _
Application form signed by an architect, architectural engineer, promoter and builder must be accompanied by a plan of the site, details of any proposed works and two copies of the construction drawings endorsed by the Architects Association 

Tax
Construction Tax “Impuesto sobre instalaciones construcciones y obras” I.C.I.O. and/or Licence fees. These are calculated depending on the figure set by your Town Council, approximately ICIO costs about 3-4% of the estimated construction costs and Licence fees about 1-2%. It is irrelevant for this tax if you have the materials and you and only you are going to undertake the works therefore you have to pay tax in this case calculating the cost according to the guidelines of the Architect Association. These fees are not refundable even the permit is not granted.

It is not necessary to make the application yourself. If you wish, you can appoint an agent (for instance, an architect, a solicitor, or a builder) to submit it for you on your behalf but your agent will need a written and express authorization 

If the Town Hall does not reply you with a written notification within within the time period provided by law , you will automatically obtain the licence, assuming that the correct information was submitted and it complies with planning regulations.

If you don't wait until your application is granted the local authorities could impose you a disciplinary penalty.

If the council turn down your application or imposes conditions, it must give written reasons and if you think the council's decision is unreasonable, you may wish to consider appealing to the Mayor. The deadline for submitting an appeal is indicated in the decision of the Town Hall 

If you know any construction works undertaking without permission you could report to the Council even if you do not have any nuisance or detriment.


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## frannrod (Apr 23, 2008)

Thank you so much Felix. I am an English lawyer, so naturally I am very cautious - and I am keen to understand how the system works in Spain.

I would be grateful if you could tell me something about the water laws in Spain. How can I know if there is water available at a plot of land? The plot we are/were interested in has a certificate dated 29 November 2006 from the Secretario de la SAT SANTA GENOVEVA 7805 for la utilizacion de los derechos de riego en una superficie de 3.333 sq m. 

I am rather angry with the estate agent, who insisted there was "permission to build" AND that "water is available" at this plot. We were not prepared to accept that without checking - but no doubt plenty of others would, and might have wasted their money!


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## felix (Mar 24, 2008)

If I could see this certificate I´ll explain you what are your rights exactly.
Have you identified the land in the Cadastre and in the Land Registry ?
Cheers


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

I dont want to sound alarmist but there are so many worrying aspects to what you are thinking of doing. I have seen so many peoples stories about what has gone wrong with such ventures, you really need to be 100% certain you want to go down this road.

I even came accross someone who had bought land North of Valencia (rural) to build on, and twas then refused because there has been a fire on the land a few years prior. Apparantly there are those that would start fires on purpose to spoil forest land to try to make it easier to buy the land for development, so they introduced this law!!!

Dont believe a word an estate agent tells you. They will tell you anything to get a sale, and they have probably added €5k on to the price for their commission so its worth a lot to them.

If you go ahead with this you have to be so so careful. Buying a house in the UK is relatively straightforward ..... its not the case here. There was a couple that made the news a month or so ago that had a villa on rural ground that was legal as far as the town hall was concerned, but the junta decided it had been built illegally, gave them a weeks notice, and knocked it down.

Just take care, check everything ...... three times!


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## frannrod (Apr 23, 2008)

Thanks Stravinsky. Yes, we are concerned which is why we're trying to check it all out now. And no, we didn't believe a word the estate agent said. He actually wanted us to sign on the dotted line there and then. Does ANYONE part with £60,000 just like that? Not us, that's for sure. We are very cautious people, like I said I'm a solicitor myself so I take nothing at face value, certainly not when an estate agent tells me "You don't need a solicitor"! 

I don't actually believe we will be able to build on the plot we saw, it all looked a bit dodgy from the start to be frank, you know the old saying "If something looks too good to be true, it probably is". 

I'd like to learn how to check this stuff out for myself, so that we can pass it on to a lawyer after we'd done what research we can. Hoping Felix will be able to help us with that. I'd like to understand the system so when we start seriously looking at property we'll know what questions to ask, and who to ask them of. Just wish I could find an "Idiot's Guide to Spanish Water Laws" !!

Thanks again.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

frannrod said:


> I'd like to learn how to check this stuff out for myself, so that we can pass it on to a lawyer after we'd done what research we can


Im afraid to do that you'll need a firm grasp on the Spanish language, and also learn that what one person says is right, another person will say isn't.

Personally ......... I'd say that moving here is stressful enough without giving yourself the additional headaches you're taking on. Once you're here its fine. As a solicitor you know how stressful a house move is. Multiply that by 10 and you're getting somewhere near 

Find yourself a finca and get it checked out minutely. You'll end up with more or less the same result eventually but you'll have more hair at the end of it all


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

BELIEVE EVERY WORD FELIX HAS WRITTEN. 

I work in a small town hall and on Fridays share an office with the municipal surveyors etc. Building ANYTHING on "rustico" is a PITA - even a goat shed. Minor renovations to existing REGISTERED property on rustic land is often OK but new building or any "Obra Mayor" will almost certainly get rejected. To deal with these guys you'll need EXCELLENT Spanish skills. I occasionally get asked to help translate - I'm trilingual but even so there are technical terms that I have to look up. You need a good local bilingual lawyer.

Here in Madrid there have been cases where a small shed/stable was made more robust - and the bulldozers were sent in.

Also get prepared for frustrations as the records at CATASTRO and the local authorities VERY often do not match up - if they don't you need to gain an agreement between them - this takes TIME - I know of one case here they've been fighting 3 years.

A Finca Rustica is best left for raising goats or turning into a Cotos de Caza (hunting land) if the GC will allow it!. 

IMO - Estate Agents are now getting VERY desperate. About 4000 have filed for bankruptcy since January - Was chatting with my local bank manager yesterday and he was telling me that many Estate Agents/Builders are cashing in all investments as they have outstripped themselves. 

My advice also is NEVER PAY CASH. take out a Mortgage and protect it with the capital you intended to spend. Apart from there being a slight tax advantage, the BANK (if it's any good) is then going to INSIST the deeds are bona fide. Leastways ours did and forced a change of clause at the Public Notary office. Builder was a tadge miffed - but faced with a Notary they will back down. 

Right now many small builders are WAY overstretched. If you see a property that is not finished and there's little sign of work - back away FAST.


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## frannrod (Apr 23, 2008)

Good stuff Chris. Thanks. Well, the estate agent we spoke to was lying through his teeth - which we were pretty certain of at the time anyway, but now - well, he was just an out and out criminal. And ALL the estate agents there have loads of these so called "building plots" on their books.

We hadn't originally planned to build. It seemed a better way of getting something rural, as there doesn't seem to be much about to buy (not what we're looking for anyway). I'm certainly going off the idea now, big time. 

Another couple of questions, Chris, if I may. Is this why we see so many farmhouse type properties in the countryside, in ruins? Because you can't get permission to restore them? We have been told that it's not possible to get permission to restore if the property is in less than 10,000 sq m, but we've seen quite a few that seem to be in a bigger plot than that, sometimes not even a major restoration project, and thought there must be a reason why it hadn't been snapped up for restoration.

Finally, we have seen ads for plots with "pre-authorisation". Is this the equivalent of outline planning permission? 

Thanks so much. I'm certainly glad I joined this forum, you've all been great.


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## felix (Mar 24, 2008)

SAT Santa Genoveva is an agriculture company of transformation “Sociedad Agraria de Transformacion” so it is a legal person and it is regulated by Real Decreto 1776/1981, de 3 de agosto, Orden Ministerial de 14 de septiembre de 1982, Ley 20/1990, sobre Régimen Fiscal de Cooperativas, Real Decreto 208/1995, de 10 de febrero, Orden C.A.P.A. de 27 de abril de 1995. The main objet of your future SAT is manage the irrigation among the members


In general terms SAT is a type of company close to cooperative which objet is only agrarian therefore if you want to use this rights of water you have to be member of this society. The right is not inherent in the possession of the land so in order to use the water you have to occupy in this SAT the same position of the seller. It is advisable to read the articles of association and the memorandum




In the area in that you are thinking about buying land usually SATs provide water from wells, even for human consumption the water of these wells are consumed

There are 510.000 illegal wells in Spain because we don´t have private wells stricto sensu, the water is in theory a public property and in order to use the water of a well you have to register and legalize it, the authorities will set the conditions of use of this particular well. I think that your SAT did this job but it is convenient to check the official registration of the well now used.


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## felix (Mar 24, 2008)

"Never pay cash", this is the point, as Chris said. Until you have the conformity of your Town Hall. Nowadays you always have to seek advice personally in the Town Hall. Put forward your plan and wait an answer in writing from the Town Hall, after this you can pay a reservation fee or sign agreements etc. but never before


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

frannrod said:


> Another couple of questions, Chris, if I may. Is this why we see so many farmhouse type properties in the countryside, in ruins? Because you can't get permission to restore them? We have been told that it's not possible to get permission to restore if the property is in less than 10,000 sq m, but we've seen quite a few that seem to be in a bigger plot than that, sometimes not even a major restoration project, and thought there must be a reason why it hadn't been snapped up for restoration.


It's not really my field (pun not intended). I'd have asked the surveyors today, but I'm stuck at home medicated to the eyeballs on painkillers. And I wont now see them till end May.

Historically from what I'm told and have seen, the "rules" regarding raising buildings on land NOT declared as urban WERE (in the past,and from all accounts not too far distant past) often dealt with lightly esp if the landowner was local and known. And things like access rights occasionally blatantly re adjusted/removed/added occasionally too. Some areas worse than others. 

It's all VERY MUCH in the public eye now - and as records centralise more and more - the tiniest indiscretion leads to fiscal/political disasters. Several assessors in Madrid city have been pilloried for making incorrect assessments (in return for money of course) - Malaga still lives with its alleged indiscretions. 

We had a old friend (ex Spanish General, now passed away) who had a house on a supposed double plot with well etc, apparently on the edge of an established estate. However (and this is a while ago now) when he attempted to build a second home on the other half (second plot) for his son - it was discovered that it had never been urban land. In fact was illegal. I'm sure in the past given the old mans status - it was simply assumed that all was above board and maybe nobody wanted to "suspect/criticise" one of Francos generals either. I doubt, having experienced his way of doing things, he did it wilfully. The existing home was legalised - but the other half plot was declared rustico. 

There was a case on Madrid local TV where a a long standing stable block(shack) on a "finca rustica" had been repaired/rebuilt and a small shelter for the workers added. This on a HUGE estate - well above 10,000 - well above 100,000. In went the bulldozers. Had they just left it and just added a plank or two to keep the wind out - it would still be there. 

Seen folk come into the town hall attempt to rebuild places - but as the work would be classified as OBRA MAYOR - it gets rejected. I have been told one case was accepted before I joined but because the incumbent actually lived there surrounded by his cows&goats and had for 20 odd years. 

If the land is OK for building (say there is permission for a farmhouse etc) you may still huge problems with amenities - Water/sewage/electricity/phone etc. I was really quite surprised recently to visit a friends new house on a small ( & legal ) rural estate just into the province of Avila. No sewage (and the streets are so narrow and poor surfaced - god knows how a truck will get in to drain theh septic tanks) - No street lights - no refuge collection except from one central point once a week - I'd hate to live close to it in summer. Very low max electricity supply - simply the wires wont allow more - inconsistent and low water pressures - He works for Telefonica so was able to get the phone bit sorted quickly - but out in the sticks if there are no free circuits on the trunk in your area - you are in for a LONG wait. 

Also (if my wife is a good example of an average Spaniard) - Living out in the sticks is not high up on the wish list. She's very unhappy in pitch black - I quite enjoy seeing by starlight. And you'd be dumb to attempt to have one over the limit and drive home now. 10 years ago - if the local police stopped you - you could get away with a warning (I have done!) - now - BIG HASSLES.

Basically - if you see something you like. Get the details and get to the town hall. But unless the municipal assessor (and thereby the town hall) ratifies in writing a request to build/rebuild/renovate etc - I'd always assume that the answer will be NO if I were you.


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## frannrod (Apr 23, 2008)

Sorry I'm a bit late in coming back with a big thank you to Chris and Felix for all your invaluable help. I thought we had a fairly healthy degree of cynicsm in dealing with anyone trying to sell us something, but I'm quite staggered at just how brazen that estate agent was. (Incidentally, we've seen the same plot with another agent at 11,000 euros less!) We've learned some very useful lessons here, and really can't thank you enough. 

Chris, I hope the painkillers have worked on whatever it was.


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## morlandg (Jun 8, 2008)

*figures*



frannrod said:


> Thank you so much Felix. I am an English lawyer, so naturally I am very cautious - and I am keen to understand how the system works in Spain.
> 
> I would be grateful if you could tell me something about the water laws in Spain. How can I know if there is water available at a plot of land? The plot we are/were interested in has a certificate dated 29 November 2006 from the Secretario de la SAT SANTA GENOVEVA 7805 for la utilizacion de los derechos de riego en una superficie de 3.333 sq m.
> 
> I am rather angry with the estate agent, who insisted there was "permission to build" AND that "water is available" at this plot. We were not prepared to accept that without checking - but no doubt plenty of others would, and might have wasted their money!


Fran - it looks as though you are unaware of the difference between the formatting of figures in English and Spanish. The spanish use the full stop as the thousand delimiter and the comma as the decimal point. So your water rights are in fact for 3 thousand 3 hundred and thirty three square metres!
¿Comprende?
Graham


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## frannrod (Apr 23, 2008)

*...*

Whoa !! Useful info, thanks. I did ask the agent about it, but he never replied. We decided against it anyway, as from the other replies on here we assumed we'd never get permission to build. But thanks for that. Appreciated. (I've done two terms of Spanish, but we haven't "done" numbers !!!!)


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