# English court letting me move with child?



## SJane (Apr 16, 2014)

Hiya, 
I would be grateful for any help or advice anybody can give me.
I'm going to try and keep this post as quick and factual as possible!

I was living in spain for about a year in 2012 I came back to England for Christmas and ended up getting pregnant by a previous partner. I had fully intended to return to Spain.
I tried to give the relationship a go for my childs sake but it was doing more harm than good. 
My ex was physically and emotionally abusive extremely controlling and was weirdly jealous of my baby. 
I had to have him removed from my home for shouting while holding the baby and spitting in my face and swearing at me.
My ex has a violent temper which is backed up by his criminal record. The record includes - Assault on a police officer, threats to kill, Assault and battery, weapons, domestics with his mother, Drugs, Drink driving and public order. 
After I moved out of our home He and his mother called social services on me saying that I was depressed, unable to care for my son and various other lies. The social services report came back stating that all of their claims have been proven by professionals including health visitors social services and the police to be lies and that the danger to my baby comes from his father and not myself.
His father uses drugs on a daily basis as well as drinks and he never showed any interest in taking care of the baby. 
However...
He has now applied to the UK courts for a contact order, I would like to return to Spain as soon as possible as I have a house to live in a job to go to and would like to sort out all the paperwork so that me and my child can live there.

I was just wondering if anybody had any experience in this, and could guess if my application would be successful?
It would be very helpful to hear some opinions/experiences.
Many thanks!!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

SJane said:


> Hiya,
> I would be grateful for any help or advice anybody can give me.
> I'm going to try and keep this post as quick and factual as possible!
> 
> ...



Generally speaking you would need the childs fathers permission to take him out of the country. With all thats going on, it would be down to the courts to decide. But in the end, I suspect they wouldnt agree to him leaving the UK - but I dont know for sure, no one can say until they make their ruling. They may be content with allowing you to bring your son to the UK periodically for supervised access visits?????? But its highly unlikely that they would allow you and your son to just dissappear with no paternal rights, they tend to try to maintain contact as far as they possibly can, offering help for any irregularities 

Jo xxx


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## Relyat (Sep 29, 2013)

What application are you making?


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## SJane (Apr 16, 2014)

I will be making an application to be able to move country with my child along with a residency order.


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## SJane (Apr 16, 2014)

I was planning to propose indirect contact until my ex can prove he has had help for his drinking drugs and anger/violence issues then contact could be supervised to start with.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

SJane said:


> I was planning to propose indirect contact until my ex can prove he has had help for his drinking drugs and anger/violence issues then contact could be supervised to start with.



The court will probably tell you what they think is fair and reasonable, depending on what your ex has to say. But it was and as far as I know still the case, that if his name is on the birth certificate, then he can refuse to let the child leave the country

I also think that you will have to prove that you have a permanent employment contract, income in Spain and that you have adequate arrangements - property, healthcare etc. Altho you have stated that you have, you may have to prove it with documentation to satisfy the court?????

If it looks like you're going to fight with your ex over this, you really should get legal advice/representation

Jo xxx


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Take legal advice from a good solicitor who has knowledge of European Legislation in respect of Family Law. 

The U.K. is still part of the E.U., you will be re-locating within the E.U., therefor it may well be that European legislation may work to your advantage.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Hepa said:


> Take legal advice from a good solicitor who has knowledge of European Legislation in respect of Family Law.
> 
> The U.K. is still part of the E.U., you will be re-locating within the E.U., therefor it may well be that European legislation may work to your advantage.


 Isnt it to do with the childs passport tho????? A parent can prevent it being issued??? and without that, they cant leave the country

Jo xxx


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## _shel (Mar 2, 2014)

Only one parent needed to get a UK childs passport


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

_shel said:


> Only one parent needed to get a UK childs passport


If its the mother, but the father - if named on the birth certificate has to have his details on the form I believe. And the absent parent has the right to contest a child being taken out of the country - even for a holiday. My best friend who lives in France would love to see her grandson, but the absent father has stopped it thru the courts as he doesnt believe the mother (my friends daughter) will bring his child back to the UK...... actually that one is still going on and she is contesting it

Jo xxx


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

These are the rules - altho quite ambiguous IMO https://www.gov.uk/permission-take-child-abroad

Jo xxx


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

jojo said:


> Isnt it to do with the childs passport tho????? A parent can prevent it being issued??? and without that, they cant leave the country
> 
> Jo xxx


That is why she needs professional advice, from a qualified source.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Hepa said:


> That is why she needs professional advice, from a qualified source.


Without a doubt!!!

But for a rough and without prejudice overview, if its going to court, then the fathers rights and wishes, regardless of any bad behaviour on his part will be taken into account, especially if he has been making counter claims against her as the OP has said.

But YES PROFESSIONAL ADVICE NEEDED FROM A QUALIFIED SOURCE!!!

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

When Sandra and I started living together, we had to get her husband's permission to take her son out of the country. That was before they were divorced. 
He was initially awkward about it but relented once solicitors were involved. I remember it very well as we were spending August in a finca in Ibiza owned by a gay friend who owned a local undertakers business and the aggrieved husband's words were:' You're not takingmyson to that filthy island full of ****ing queers'. Not thesortof argument that counts for much in a courtroom.
For several years we used to spend our summers in Ibiza and each time the plane made its descent towards the airport we'd say:'Here we are again in that filthy island full of ****ing queers!'

So unless things have changed I'd be surprised if you didn't need his permission. Even the most awful parent has some rights. Butyou can fight a refusal and leave it to a judge to decide, which is what we threatened to do.


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## SJane (Apr 16, 2014)

jojo said:


> Isnt it to do with the childs passport tho????? A parent can prevent it being issued??? and without that, they cant leave the country
> 
> Jo xxx


My ex's mother let herself in to my house stole mine and my babys birth certificate & my passport. I went and got a new birth certificate and passports for us both nobody questioned my application. xx


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## _shel (Mar 2, 2014)

SJane said:


> My ex's mother let herself in to my house stole mine and my babys birth certificate & my passport. I went and got a new birth certificate and passports for us both nobody questioned my application. xx


 By rights you need a letter from the other parent or a Court Order when travelling. You can be asked for it by any immigration officer who can halt your journey if you don't have it. That said they dont always ask. 

Though Child abduction is a serious offence and yes its abduction even of your own child. Reunite International


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## SJane (Apr 16, 2014)

Thank you for your replies. I am totally aware that taking my child without consent can be considered child abduction. I do have a solicitor through legal aid as I was a victim of domestic abuse. I've read several cases online where the mother has been given to relocate to new zealand from the uk! and that was against a father that was good! I'm trying to keep hopeful as being forced to stay in the UK would just make me feel as if my ex still had all the control over us. xx


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

You say he's taking you to court for contact, you have to wait for that before you can legally do anything. It will be the courts decision. 


Jo xxx


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## _shel (Mar 2, 2014)

SJane said:


> Thank you for your replies. I am totally aware that taking my child without consent can be considered child abduction. I do have a solicitor through legal aid as I was a victim of domestic abuse. I've read several cases online where the mother has been given to relocate to new zealand from the uk! and that was against a father that was good! I'm trying to keep hopeful as being forced to stay in the UK would just make me feel as if my ex still had all the control over us. xx


 Permission is granted all the time BUT what is important in the eyes of the Law is not what you want but what is in the 'best interests & the welfare of the child'.

This means you have to show the Court a few things. 
1, if contact is granted to him how you will ensure it happens if living in another country. The addition of frequent phone and skype calls is good but doesnt get away from needing face to face, even overnight contact. That you show you will help facilitate. 

2, that on having researched you can show that living elsewhere wil be in the 'childs best interests'. That means better standard of living, schooling, future etc that outweigh the interests of being where the child knows, is familiar with and near the other parent & relatives. 

I've seen people put together a folder for the Court with photos & research. This is where the child will go to school = benefits. This is where we will live = benefits. This is how much I will earn comparable to where we are now = better life, These are the social & community activities comparable to the UK.


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## SJane (Apr 16, 2014)

_shel said:


> Permission is granted all the time BUT what is important in the eyes of the Law is not what you want but what is in the 'best interests & the welfare of the child'.
> 
> This means you have to show the Court a few things.
> 1, if contact is granted to him how you will ensure it happens if living in another country. The addition of frequent phone and skype calls is good but doesnt get away from needing face to face, even overnight contact. That you show you will help facilitate.
> ...


Thank you. My ex will never be allowed to have unsupervised or overnight contact with my baby as he has been assessed by MARAC (Multi agency risk assessment conference) and he is a very high risk. My child will not currently benefit from any contact with his father unless he changes his behaviour for his child. 
The other relatives on his fathers side haven't actually bothered trying to contact me for any contact for themselves, which I would have let them have supervised by me. They're obviously feeling ridiculous for stealing from their own grandchild. 

i'll start putting together a folder Thanks because I wasn't sure how to go about putting my case together x


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

SJane said:


> Thank you. My ex will never be allowed to have unsupervised or overnight contact with my baby as he has been assessed by MARAC (Multi agency risk assessment conference) and he is a very high risk. My child will not currently benefit from any contact with his father unless he changes his behaviour for his child.
> The other relatives on his fathers side haven't actually bothered trying to contact me for any contact for themselves, which I would have let them have supervised by me. They're obviously feeling ridiculous for stealing from their own grandchild.
> 
> i'll start putting together a folder Thanks because I wasn't sure how to go about putting my case together x


TOP TIP: Put together a positive case for you and your childs future. Dont berate your ex-partner (thats the courts decision). Explain and prove the benefits of your choices in a clear and thought through way.

..... and good luck with it. It would be lovely if you let us know how it goes

Jo xxx


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## _shel (Mar 2, 2014)

jojo said:


> TOP TIP: Put together a positive case for you and your childs future. Dont berate your ex-partner (thats the courts decision). Explain and prove the benefits of your choices in a clear and thought through way.
> 
> ..... and good luck with it. It would be lovely if you let us know how it goes
> 
> Jo xxx


 Good advice because regardless of what has happened in the past if a Court decides he should have contact, supervised or overnight, you have to state how you will help facilitate that given you are the one wanting to take the child abroad.

If the Court gets a wiff that you have a stance that you may ignore any such Order or are deliberately hindering such a process in favour of your own needs the Judge wont take kindly to it and will block your own Order.

Smile nicely and show you are cooperative. If he allready has involvement via MARAC or MAPPA get the police, probation & social worker involved in your own planning they should advise & help you.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

SJane said:


> Thank you. My ex will never be allowed to have unsupervised or overnight contact with my baby as he has been assessed by MARAC (Multi agency risk assessment conference) and he is a very high risk. My child will not currently benefit from any contact with his father unless he changes his behaviour for his child.
> The other relatives on his fathers side haven't actually bothered trying to contact me for any contact for themselves, which I would have let them have supervised by me. They're obviously feeling ridiculous for stealing from their own grandchild.
> 
> i'll start putting together a folder Thanks because I wasn't sure how to go about putting my case together x


Good luck. During my professional career I came across many children and young people whose lives would have been immeasurably better if they had had no contact with one or even both parents. Children are not items, goods, objects, to be 'owned' by someone who may not even have intentionally procreated them.

Your former partner sounds like a total waste of epidermis, a person who has proven himself unfit to be in charge of a caged canary let alone a small child.  I don't know your circumstances so I can't say anything about your future life in Spain. Hopefully your job and accommodation are secure as I'm sure you are well aware of how bad things are workwise in Spain.
But you are quite right to want to put as much distance as possible between yourself and your child and this dreadful man and his equally gruesome family and I wish you all the best.


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