# PR application processing time 2013



## ken83

hello.

can anyone who got PR granted this year (2013) share his/her experience? (processing time, background, marital status, profession, etc). I have applied in january with my wife and been told by immigration officer that it would take 4 to 6 months. It has now gone beyond that timeline and we still havent got a reply (we regularly check the status on line). I am from western Europe and my wife is Malaysian chinese, both EP P1 holders earning >$10k each and been in singapore for 3 years. I know that PR applications are now under scrutinity with all the debate about foreign influx... I heard it could take up to 12 months...

Would be good to hear of other similar cases/ experiences. thank you!


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## simonsays

well, just a curious question, say I am an Australian, married to an Algerian, and I have only high school diploma and my wife is a Phd, and I earn 3000 and my wife earns 3000 and we get PR approved, for example, does it mean you will also get it ??  

Just asking !!!!

Yah, it takes more than 12 months sometimes and at the same speed, REP renewals are also being rejected ..


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## ken83

thank you ecureilx for your post. Well, I know for a fact that there isn't any rational on how PR is granted in Singapore. People from diverse background and professional skills have got it after 3 or 13 months from submission date. I also know that they thoroughly look at education, a certain level of income, etc and also 'unofficially' at race/ethnic origins...


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## simonsays

so, my question again :   how does the profile of person X translates to person Y's profile ? ?

I am just being curious .. unless you can 'manufacture' stuff


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## Agan

Singapore doesn't disclose the criteria which would be manipulated by people. If you really qualify n willing to stay for life means you send your son to NS then you will be granted PR. Not for ppl who run away halfway


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## simonsays

agan: contradictory statement:  How will ICA know your true intentions ??  

Tough one right ? 

Best is to apply and see if you qualify, that's all you could do ..


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## Linuxpro

Ok now I am nervous. I turn in my papers for PR on Monday. I plan to get married next year. 

I am probably the only American who has applied this year. Haha.

I am 47, so I hope they do not consider me too old.

I make 100,000 a year.

I have no children, and no aging parents. I do not plan to have any children (vasectomy), so I will not be a burden on the taxpayer. 

I have 200,000 in savings, and another 300,000 in my USA social security account (I do not have a statement for the latter).

I hope it does not take six months!


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## beppi

Linuxpro said:


> I do not plan to have any children (vasectomy), so I will not be a burden on the taxpayer.


Sorry, but you got this wrong:
Singapore prefers people having kids, to alleviate the low birth rate and provide NS men for the military (PR kids have to serve, too).
Since kids have to (by law) provide for their ageing, retired parents, childless people are more likely to become a burden to the state.
So this weighs heavily against you!


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## Linuxpro

beppi said:


> Since kids have to (by law) provide for their ageing, retired parents, childless people are more likely to become a burden to the state.
> So this weighs heavily against you!


 I moved here specifically to get away from the wolds most expensive vanity - children. Yes the low birth rate is why I picked Singapore. Also why I live in a building full of old people.

They do not ask any medical questions so they do not know about my vasectomy. If I already had children they would not be eligible for NS because they would not have been Singapore born, so I do not see the issue.

Btw: I am a second generation US citizen of German decent.


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## beppi

From the viewpoint of the Singapore authorities:
- you earn well (but not stellar), contribute to the Singapore economy and pay taxes (positive)
- you are relatively old and may not work much longer (negative)
(applying for PR is only possible up to 50 years old - Singapore does not want foreign retirees using its limited resources even if they pay for it!
- you are single, at least as of now (negative)
- you probably won't produce kids due to your age (negative)
- you are not of the preferred Chinese ancestry (negative)
Therefore your chances for becoming PR are low. I would even say without marrying a Singapore citizen (and applying for PR 2 years afterwards) you are pretty sure to be rejected.


(P.S.: Boys who are PR have to serve NS regardless of where they were born.)


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## BBCWatcher

Linuxpro said:


> I have 200,000 in savings, and another 300,000 in my USA social security account (I do not have a statement for the latter).


Do you mean a record of ~$300,000 worth of contributions to U.S. Social Security? U.S. Social Security does not have account balances per se. It's a defined benefit social insurance program. The most important thing in determining retirement benefit levels is how many years you have contributed, then how much you contributed in your top earning years. You qualify for at least some benefits if you have at least 10 years of nontrivial contributions into the system. You can choose to start collecting benefits from age 62 or later. Monthly benefit amounts are the largest if you wait until age 70, but you don't do any better beyond 70.

You can run a simulation of your future monthly benefit at ssa.gov. That'd be the sort of information for a PR application, not a total contribution amount which really isn't too helpful. I recall logging in and running a report, so it's at least possible. Or you can just simply report that you qualify for future U.S. Social Security retirement benefits if you've got the 10+ years of nontrivial contributions. You can count contributions into other countries' social insurance systems if you need to in order to hit the 10 year mark as long as those countries have totalization treaties with the U.S. (Singapore does not.) Of course you have to let Social Security know about that other country (or those other countries) in that situation when you apply for benefits.

Beppi is correct. The government prefers children. Having one or more children is a plus for a PR application, according to reports. Lack of children alone is not disqualifying, also according to reports. National Service is only one reason among many why Singapore wants children.

It's pointless to worry about that. You aren't an active Olympic gymnast either, and that would also be a plus.


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## Linuxpro

I guess I have zero chance if I do not turn in the documents. Even a 10% chance is much better than zero.


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## wesmant

Linuxpro said:


> . If I already had children they would not be eligible for NS because they would not have been Singapore born, so I do not see the issue.
> 
> .


Allow me to add in. 

AFAIK, all PR are eligible for NS, but normally (most probably) first generation PR will be "Exempted" from serving NS. Mindef will soon issue a PR a statement letter regarding NS, wether he has to serve NS or not.

As for 2nd generation PR, Singapore definition is the person is not the main applicant (e.g. Dependent. And if you one have kids and getting their PR beause their parent are PRs, they are dependent), normally has to serve NS. It has nothing to do with country of birth.

E.g.: one applied PR, an he has a 10 year old boy as one of the dependent, this boy is eligible for NS and most probably will be called to serve.

Hope this give a proper idea on how PR eligible on NS


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## DrPaulMasters

From someone who used to work in the dept:



> Imagine a stack of papers, six foot high, with each piece of paper representing one application. Duplicate the stack 20 or 30 times over. This is the number of applications we get each year. I had to apply for my wife THREE times, before it was accepted, and I used to work in the department! It's almost as if they reject you automatically for the first two applications, just to see if you are serious about living here, and not trying to use Singapore as a flag of convenience... If you are serious about becoming a PR here, apply as early as you can, because the restrictions are being tightened, and it could take up to three years to get approved.


I believe you can apply for PR after six months of working here. Expect to get rejected, but there is no 'black mark' on your record for a rejected PR application. You can apply as many times as you like, but it won't be quick


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## wesmant

DrPaulMasters said:


> From someone who used to work in the dept:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe you can apply for PR after six months of working here. Expect to get rejected, but there is no 'black mark' on your record for a rejected PR application. You can apply as many times as you like, but it won't be quick


quite true, I know a few guys who attempted 4x in 2-3 years, and get their approval only in the 5th attempt


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## simonsays

DrPaulMasters said:


> From someone who used to work in the dept:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe you can apply for PR after six months of working here. Expect to get rejected, but there is no 'black mark' on your record for a rejected PR application. You can apply as many times as you like, but it won't be quick


my 2 cents ? unless your pay is very high .. better to wait for 3 years.

After all, they ask for 3 years income tax returns right ? Why would they ask if they don't mind ?


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## DrPaulMasters

i didn't know about the income tax return requirement, but surely you can provide copies of tax paid in other domiciles?


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## simonsays

DrPaulMasters said:


> i didn't know about the income tax return requirement, but surely you can provide copies of tax paid in other domiciles?


no. 3 years tax statement from IRAS

yes, of course, that wouldn't deter many from applying just after 6 months .. and by the luck of the draw, and if they earn 5 figure pay, their sucess has been pretty high .. those on the lower level, have got letters saying "Not succesfull' withot even a glimmer of hope if you can apply again .. vs, other who waited and applied and have got letters stating 'apply after 6 months, 1 year etc .. 

FYI:
_
Income Tax Notices of Assessment for the last 3 years. Alternatively, you may complete Appendix -1 (PR-PTS) to give consent for ICA to obtain and verify financial information provided in respect of this application with the *Inland Revenue Authority of Singapore *directly_


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## Linuxpro

I went for my appointment last Monday. The agent shot me down right on the spot. Basically he said that the copies of my forms were not good enough. My birth cert is missing a strip along one side of about 2mm. He said I have to redo it. I also failed to bring my original diploma. That is back in the USA. Furthermore he said that I used the wrong terminology. For example, "Single (divorced)" is not acceptable. I have to put down "Divorced". Under the whereabouts of my mother "UNKNOWN" is not acceptable. I should say she is "DECEASED" if nobody has seen her for six years. The instructions did not tell me what terms are acceptable. Finally the letter from my employer was signed five months ago. They want forms that are signed within the last 30 days.

The agent said I can come back within two months with no appointment if everything is corrected. I doubt I can get everything by then. I will be visiting the USA in October. I will get everything while I am there, and start over. I do not know what else do do. 

I really am poor at filling out forms. The A4 form says it should take only 20 min. Well, I imported it and filled it all out using Microsoft office. It took me about 20 hours to fill it out, and have two other people proofread it. It only took about 5 min for the agent to go over it, and mark it up like a 5th grade writing instructor.

When it comes to expense reports, at work, anything under $100 I do not bother with. I am software developer. Doing paperwork is not want I do.


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## wesmant

Linuxpro said:


> I went for my appointment last Monday. The agent shot me down right on the spot. Basically he said that the copies of my forms were not good enough.


Are u engaging agent to apply for SPR?

I'm sorry, but whatever for? SPR application is the easiest and the most straight-forward in the world.
The requirement is also a lot simpler.

If I were you, I'd go direct to ICA, let the officer sort out my files. As far as i know, They'll just go according to the checklist as what was shown in the ICA webpage, and if you have a minor shortage here and there, you can comeback for supplementary submission.

Agent in Singapore PR application is a simple reduntant. ICA did not ask for any letter from past employer or other funny things like Oz, NZ or CA PR application, right?

Well, wish you good luck for your application.


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## Linuxpro

I only did once. I requested an appointment. I waited for several months. I showed up and was given a queue number. I waited to be called. There was a man at the counter, and I referred to him as an agent because I have no idea what his title is. He told me that my 20 hours of work was rubbish. 

I an a Linux admin, and a C++ developer, not a paper pusher. I thought the A4 was very much a challenge even though over half of the blanks were "N.A.".

A letter from your employer is required.

At this point I am questioning the value of PR. The paperwork far exceeds my patience.


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## simonsays

wesmant is right .. why the heck you need a agent ? if you go directly to ICA, they will accept it, and if something is missing, they will ask you to send to them, or go back to the same officer.

Ah, you seem to be the rich type who likes to engage Agents 

Well, if you can read and write in English go direct

After all engaging an agents gets you nowhere .. still it is you who has to go and appear in person at ICa.


PS: you are in the same boat as me, as I don't like to do paperwork, I am not going 'up the ladder .. ' and staying stuck as a Senior Engineer ..


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## Linuxpro

Ooooh my head! I do not know what an "agent" is. I was talking about the uncle at the counter. I guess I mean "Officer". Hahaha 

I went to the ICA and the "officer" said my A4 is rubbish, my birth certificate his tattered, and he copies are not acceptable.

Sorry, but he terms are different in Singapore than in the USA. 

In the USA most forms are on the computer. You choose from a list. I never have to guess what answer they need.


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## wesmant

Alrite, looks like our meaning of "agent" are different. I tot u enggaged a Migration Agent from an agency. Well, you are right too, officer is more common to describe someone from ICA no matter what their rank are. More like a "singapore term", hahaha

I am not sure what sort of crap u r facing now, but understood that in the past, as long as you have the original for them to verify the copy on the spot, things were fine.


As for the value of PR, it's subjective, really


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## Linuxpro

I will goto LA and get a new birth certificate and everything. I just spoke to my neighbor (only moments ago). He told me to get an "agent" to look over everything. H said they are only about $50. 

With regards to NS. If I had a on, I would say "man up and do NS". I did it back in the USA for six years.


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## wesmant

Good that you made your decision.


Don't bother abt NS. Especially fr ppl like u whose spent 6 years in the "past military", what NS now is fully acceptable  i don't see any issue on it!

Good luck for your application!


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## Linuxpro

wesmant said:


> Good luck for your application!


thanx man

Cheers


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## simonsays

that does clear up stuff .. you meant like "customs" / "immigration" agent in US Style I guess .. 

BTW, don't bother for NS, that's a formality that gets noted but waived, unless you are of the 'ripe' age .. once you cross mid 20's I am yet to hear of anybody who was asked to do NS after getting PR, unless they were born in SG but left for various reasons ..


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## Linuxpro

Hey dudes and dudettes! My brother managed to get all my papers. I will resubmit my PR application next month.

I had a thought! And no it did not hurt!  lol

1. I think the PR thing is more of a lottery than anything else. I have spoken to people who have far less to offer, and make a lot less money than I do. They were approved in the last 12 months. The guy I talked to yesterday is a waiter!

2. Lets face it, PR is really about getting future votes than anything else. All the words you hear about future babies to serve NS is crap. The power that be are buying votes. That is why we are allowed here.

Anyway many of the guys I chatted with gave me much encouragement.


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## BBCWatcher

I'm not sure I follow. Babies are future potential votes, too. So are spouses. If/when they become citizens.

PRs are also potential buyers of second sale HDB properties. A supply of such buyers might make some voters happy, but it's complicated.


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## Linuxpro

BBCWatcher said:


> Babies are future potential votes, too. So are spouses. If/when they become citizens.


Nobody counts on Babies to vote. If I was an elected person I would not be counting on future babies to vote. I would be retired before they are old enough to vote so they have nothing to offer me. In the USA Democrats give free things to illegal aliens, and Republicans will not throw them out. Why? Simple... Illegal aliens vote illegally in the USA all the time. They vote for whomever they think is getting them a better deal. 

In Singapore I doubt anyone votes illegally, because Singapore actually cares if people bother to obey the law (unlike the USA were laws exist for generating revenue). 

I think the real motivation that drives allowing foreigners pr is getting their votes.


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## beppi

PRs are not allowed to vote in Singapore.
Your reasoning is flawed!


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## Linuxpro

I heard different, and I m not saying you are wrong. 

The fact remains that the justification for PR is 90% some unspoken political agenda, and 10% he good of Singapore. Political truth is the same in all countries.


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## wesmant

Beppi is right, PR can't vote. What u hear is probably new citizen. One can apply for SG citizenship a few yrs after getting a PR

Well, i think govt is trying to replenish the aging population. There's suppose a ratio between workforce vs non workforce (aging pupolation). That's the whole thing about attracting ppl to migrate to SG: to support the economy 

As for the real creteria who to get and who won't get is not published. 
Govt only mentioned what'is the minimum requrement, and they'll select application who first have to have met those basic requirement.

I myself know some people of "minimum backround" who got their PR at first attempt, ad I also know quite a few who did't even if he/she has a lot more in hand than the basic requirement


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## simonsays

BBCWatcher said:


> I'm not sure I follow. Babies are future potential votes, too. So are spouses. If/when they become citizens.
> 
> PRs are also potential buyers of second sale HDB properties. A supply of such buyers might make some voters happy, but it's complicated.


err .. HDB property sale ? One of the minister went on record that buying a house shouldn't be a primary driver to get PR .. as HDB wants the houses for SCs .. and they have shown they do take it firmly by the ABSD and limiting loans for resale flats.

Linuxpro: Singaporeans by law MUST VOTE, and if they don't vote, their voting right is revoked. And only Singaporeans can vote ...

Additionally, from what i know, govt is trying to manage a balance of races, and if you come from the race that is not overtly wanted or is too many here, the chances reduce ..


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## BBCWatcher

People really need to improve their reading comprehension around here. I wrote:



> A supply of such buyers might make some voters happy, but it's complicated.


You are in no way contradicting what I wrote, Ecureilx. You're reinforcing it. Specifically, if you are a Singaporean who owns a HDB property, and you are interested in selling it, having lots of PRs and citizens willing to pay lots of money for your property is great and makes you happy. If, on the other hand, you are a Singaporean and looking to buy an HDB property, bidding competition from PRs is not something you like, until you become a seller sometime in the future. Also, the private property market can influence the HDB market, and there are also voters who don't like PRs bringing their cultural experiences into HDB developments -- some are perhaps even motivated by racism -- hence "it's complicated."

I didn't really want to pursue that digression, but given reading comprehension problems it seems to be necessary.


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## BBCWatcher

Linuxpro said:


> ... Illegal aliens vote illegally in the USA all the time.


How many, and how often is "all the time"? You could win a Pulitzer Prize if you reliably document large or even small numbers of such voters.

In fact there's ample evidence this just doesn't happen very often. Even the people with an urgent, partisan imperative to find individuals voting illegally in the U.S. struggle to find any. For the record, Colorado might have found one non-citizen who voted back in 2004. There were over 2.1 million votes cast in Colorado in the 2004 election.


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## simonsays

BBCWatcher said:


> ... /QUOTE]
> 
> And in Singapore context, since every voter's IC number is written down along with his Voting Card # .. .. no cheating here ..
> 
> Maybe other countries should do it
> 
> 
> Anyway, back to the subject of recent property buying rule changes, a friend quipped ..
> 
> The PA Govt is terrified of offending anybody, they are offending everybody .. (like cutting EP/Pass and making SMEs upset, reducing rental period and making Singaporeans suddenly realise their secondary income source is going down the drain .. etc. etc)


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## Linuxpro

Arizona governor Jane Hull stated that she attended a ceremony for new US citizens. She was handing out voter registration cards to people who only became US citizens moments ago. Nearly all of them said, "thank you but I am already a registered voter". She was interviewed on talk radio 550. I do not remember the date.

In 2002, or so, Arizona passed a law that said photo ID was required to vote (same law that they have in Mexico). The law was deemed "racist". The law was changed. Auto registration and proof of insurance is all that is required in the absence if a photo ID.(Something that is easily stolen from any parked car). Auto registration contains the address of the voter. It is easy to find his or her polling location.

In 2008 when I showed up to vote they told me I had been there earlier that day and already voted. I had been at work 45 min away. I complained. Nobody would listen to me. I bet some illegal alien voted in my stead in 2012. I was in Singapore and did not cast a ballot.

I did a background check on myself. It seems that I have lived all over the USA, and I adopted some children from Mexico (the adoption part is just a joke). There are several of "me" in Arizona. Lets hope they are paying a lot into my SSN. It seems that nothing can be done about them.

Investigating it would be called "racist" so nothing will be done.

Sorry about my writing. I do my Internet on an my iPhone.


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## BBCWatcher

That's an amazing story about Jane Hull's experience. There's only one problem: it never happened, according to...Jane Hull! The story was thoroughly debunked almost a decade ago. It'll probably take you about 10 seconds with Google to verify that.


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## USA_Singa

Hello, it seems the thread went a bit off track so allow me to share my personal information. I applied for my PR in February and received the approval in July. I finalized the process yesterday (19 Aug) and recieved my IC number and 5 year reentry permit on the day. I will collect my IC from the post office next Tuesday the 27th. 

Now the dirty details. I have been living and working in Singapore under a FIN # only with no employment pass from 2002-2005. I left for a year and worked in Japan. When I returned in 2006 i was working under company sponsorship with a Q2 pass if memory serves me right. After 2 years when i renewed it, it was upgraded to a Q1 pass. At that time I received a couple of letters over the next few years encouraging me to apply for PR. Beginning of 2012 I was retrenched from the finance sector and applied for a PEP to give me some flexibility to find a new job and this was approved. I only worked from April - September of 2012 and have been unemployed since then. I mention this specifically because at the time of application my employer was Unemployed and my Gross Salary was $0.....

Once again as others have mentioned I can only speculate as to positive factors that might have aided in my approval. 
1) Married in 2005 in Singapore to a Singaporean
2) Extended work history in Singapore (salary range $60-150k per year with year of application at $0) 
3) At time of application 1 female Singaporean born child (1 more born in June before approval but not on the application) so no good for the speculated NS purpose. 
4) Working spouse 
5) Spouse is a National Athlete ( however not in table tennis, badminton, bowling, sailing, wushu, or swimming so nobody likely cares.....)

Sorry for the lengthy response, i was just trying to be minimally thorough to highlight that nobody ever really knows why they were or weren't approved. Hope this provides some levity. I will likely post again to squabble with you all off topic about immigration, voting, racism, sexism a little later. For me personally I only bothered with PR as a launching pad to Singapore citizenship as I am keen to renounce my US Citizenship....


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## wesmant

USA_Singa: what a good and valuable long story for all SPR aspirant, i believe.

Allow me to be a bit "kaypoh" (a decade in here u shd know what it means): why would you want to renounce ur US ceitizenship? While so many people are dying to get one? (Excluding me )

Just am wonder


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## USA_Singa

Wes, if i was worried about someone being kapoh I wouldn't have shared. Something people who post so many things on FB seem to not understand. 

Simple answer as possible is that as an American I am taxed on all income derived around the globe although I use no benefits, roads, schools fire, police etc. So by law I required to pay US tax and Singapore tax. A step further is that with the IRS and FATCA rules i am required to not only report all of my assets, but those of my Singaporean wife if we have any joint accounts. I don't think the US has any rights or reason to know if my wife has any assets, income etc period. I also begrudge the fact that I am required to pay tax, yet not able to claim any benefit. This last year I have been unemployed I certainly could not claim unemployment benefits, welfare, housing benefits, food stamps etc, however am required to pay tax to support illegal immigrants in America. When I worked for an American employer in Singapore they withheld US Social Security (which will not exist by the time i am age eligible), however I can't receive benefits here, nor was I allowed to take advantage of the companies 401k plan because I was overseas. 

Now with FATCA the compliance requirements by foreign banks are causing them to dump American clients because the reporting requirements are so onerous and costly it is not worth having us as clients. This translates to difficulty getting bank loans for a car, house or any other routine needs we need anywhere we may live or even a bank account at all. This also translates to employers also turning away from us as employees. A local company has no desire to train or invest the time and money to HR, accounts or any other department to comply with US law. It is outrageous really. 

As I have no assets in the US, no desire to return and have lived the bulk of my adult life overseas I see no reason to ever return. Also considering tax rates, economy, safety, and long term prospects I think Asia is the place to put my stake in the ground. Now that we have decided not to have any more children, and they were born while i was an American citizen they are entitled to American citizenship should they ever desire it. I have not registered their births though with the embassy or applied for US passports for them either. I can only imagine my future 35 year old child someday being required to pay US tax while living in Spain and being required to report assets of her Croat husband both of which may have never even been to the US.... Just something to think about. 

Another verbose response I know, but since you asked I thought I would indulge you. I used to brag about the fact that America was a place that if you just did your thing and didn't harm others you would be left alone to do as you wish. Now as we know that is not the case and truth be told likely far more invasive than the Singaporean boogie man. It is also easier and safer for my family to travel on their Singapore passports than my American one stuffed full of Visas I used to not need. Ok, I will stop now as this could go on for a few pages at least. I love what the US stands for at its core, unfortunately those principles and standards have been eroded over time to a place that like a late stage cancer patient is barely recognizable and I have lost hope in its recovery. 

P.S. If anyone were to question my patriotism I would note that I am a ten year military vet with campaign medals from Afghanistan, Iraq, and other locations.


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## wesmant

Hi USA_Singa: glad to see your eye opening elaboration.


I tot it was due to the 401k only, but seems that a lot more than just that.

Thanks a bunch and i hope it can be eye opener to those who has American dreams, at least for their check and balance!

Good luck to you and wish u all the best for all your plan!


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## BBCWatcher

USA_Singa said:


> Simple answer as possible is that as an American I am taxed on all income derived around the globe although I use no benefits, roads, schools fire, police etc. So by law I required to pay US tax and Singapore tax....I also begrudge the fact that I am required to pay tax, yet not able to claim any benefit. This last year I have been unemployed I certainly could not claim unemployment benefits, welfare, housing benefits, food stamps etc, however am required to pay tax to support illegal immigrants in America.


Uh, no, that's misleading.

First of all, if you're not receiving any income you would have no U.S. tax liability. Moreover, assuming Married Filing Separately (MFS), you would not have any tax filing requirement (much less tax liability) if your income is less than US$10,000 (2013 tax year).

If you have sufficient U.S. source income such as U.S. interest, dividends, and capital gains you would always be taxed, regardless of your citizenship. If you are not a U.S. citizen you are generally subject to a 30% withholding tax on such income from dollar one. U.S. citizens are not subject to withholding on U.S. source income from U.S. financial accounts, so they enjoy privileged tax treatment in the U.S.

If you have earned income -- income from work -- but that income is modest, it is possible to qualify for U.S. refundable tax credits even while living outside the U.S. One example is the U.S. Additional Child Tax Credit. If you have dependents who are U.S. citizens then you would generally qualify. A refundable tax credit means that even if you owe no U.S. tax you can receive the credit, meaning the U.S. IRS sends you money solely because you are a U.S. citizen who qualifies.

There is no penalty for nonfiling if you do not owe U.S. tax, even if you are "required" to file.

The occasions when you owe U.S. tax when living outside the U.S. are as follows:

1. As noted, you have U.S. source income (which applies to everyone, but U.S. citizens are treated better); or
2. You have earned income (salaries, wages, etc.) at least above US$97,600 (tax year 2013) -- sometimes well above that amount -- and the income above that amount is taxed at rates below U.S. rates; or
3. You have unearned income above US$10,000 (tax year 2013) and the income above that amount is taxed at rates below U.S. rates; or
4. You are obliged to participate in the U.S. Social Security system (but which also includes survivors', disability, and retirement benefits).

That's a slight oversimplification but only slightly. To simplify even further, U.S. citizens living outside the U.S. only owe U.S. taxes if they either must participate in U.S. Social Security (in which case they receive benefits), or if they are at least relatively well-to-do and live in a comparatively low tax jurisdiction.



> When I worked for an American employer in Singapore they withheld US Social Security (which will not exist by the time i am age eligible), however I can't receive benefits here, nor was I allowed to take advantage of the companies 401k plan because I was overseas.


Yes, you will receive U.S. Social Security benefits. If you become disabled you can immediately receive benefits (assuming your Social Security contributions were recent enough). If you die your spouse and children can generally receive survivors' benefits (with the same assumption). And if you have at least 10 years of nontrivial contributions into U.S. Social Security you will receive retirement benefits. You will receive these benefits in Singapore if you wish (or in most countries if you live elsewhere), and you can choose to receive them starting as early as age 62 and as late as age 70. The longer you wait to collect the higher your benefit.

Assuming the same minimum 10 years you are also eligible for U.S. Medicare starting at age 65 (which applies only to medical care provided in the U.S.) However, if you ever require nursing home care, and if you are indigent, you would be eligible for U.S. Medicaid for any nursing home and other medical care provided in the U.S. for the rest of your life. Yes, some international couples/families have to do that, and it's an important social insurance backstop which can prevent bankrupting your foreign spouse if you're unlucky in health.



> Now with FATCA the compliance requirements by foreign banks are causing them to dump American clients because the reporting requirements are so onerous and costly it is not worth having us as clients. This translates to difficulty getting bank loans for a car, house or any other routine needs we need anywhere we may live or even a bank account at all. This also translates to employers also turning away from us as employees. A local company has no desire to train or invest the time and money to HR, accounts or any other department to comply with US law. It is outrageous really.


Has this happened to you personally? I have not had any difficulties such as those you describe. Singapore and the U.S. recently signed an agreement to cooperate in tax compliance, including FATCA-related issues. Financial institutions in Singapore are covered by (and protected by) that agreement, and they already have compliance processes in place.



> As I have no assets in the US, no desire to return and have lived the bulk of my adult life overseas I see no reason to ever return.


If you have no assets in the U.S. you presumably have no unearned income, so you would have no U.S. tax liability.



> Also considering tax rates, economy, safety, and long term prospects I think Asia is the place to put my stake in the ground. Now that we have decided not to have any more children, and they were born while i was an American citizen they are entitled to American citizenship should they ever desire it. I have not registered their births though with the embassy or applied for US passports for them either.


That's too bad considering that you might qualify for receiving money from the U.S. government via the Additional Child Tax Credit, in particular. It depends on how much earned income you have. You do have a couple years to recover any ACTCs your dependents are eligible to receive.



> I can only imagine my future 35 year old child someday being required to pay US tax while living in Spain and being required to report assets of her Croat husband both of which may have never even been to the US.... Just something to think about.


Unlikely. Spain generally has a higher tax rate than the U.S., so even if your child is highly successful it's unlikely he/she would owe U.S. taxes. He/she may have an annual filing requirement depending on the circumstances.

He/she would also have unfettered access to the world's largest economy with many of the world's wealthiest individuals. Taxes are one thing, but income earning potential and risk mitigation is another. U.S. citizenship is extremely useful for anyone interested in careers in the performing arts, Internet companies, and several other sectors. Loss of U.S. citizenship is not helpful if you're destined to be a great film director, for example. (It may not be totally disqualifying, but it's not helpful.) U.S. citizenship is highly coveted for its income earning potential.



> Another verbose response I know, but since you asked I thought I would indulge you. I used to brag about the fact that America was a place that if you just did your thing and didn't harm others you would be left alone to do as you wish. Now as we know that is not the case and truth be told likely far more invasive than the Singaporean boogie man.


It depends. For example, Singapore requires its citizens (and permanent residents, in most cases) who happen to be young and male to perform compulsory national service. The U.S. does not and has not for over half a century. Most people would consider compulsory national service to be a significant form of taxation. As another example, Singapore does not tolerate multiple citizenships. If a Singaporean is discovered to be operating as a citizen of another country -- using another country's passport, for example -- that Singaporean is likely to be stripped of his/her citizenship. The U.S. tolerates multiple citizenships and does not act in that manner.

Singapore is also a very small country with a relatively short history. Singapore does not have the ability to defend its national territory against a determined military adversary. (Though Singapore would likely put up a hell of a good fight, at great cost in terms of lives lost.) Indeed, Singapore was invaded and occupied by a foreign power in the 20th century despite having the protection of another foreign power. Though I think Singapore will continue to do well if I had to predict, I'm somewhat less confident in that prediction compared to other countries simply because Singapore is not as well diversified as many other countries. I can't predict with great confidence how well Singapore will fare as global sea levels rise, for example. Land is limited, and Singapore will necessarily have to decrease its rates of immigration in order to converge to a target, stable population. That means the demographic composition of the country and its sources of growth will change, and that also means Singapore will have a greater social burden to bear. I would expect rates of taxation to increase over time, specifically. U.S. demographics are much more attractive than those of most developed countries (and even most developing countries).

I have no particular view on whether someone renounces a particular citizenship or not, but I do think it's important to understand the facts associated with that citizenship. There are pros and cons that come with every citizenship and every combination of citizenships.


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## Linuxpro

I will apply for USA PR for my wife and visit the USA every year so she can maintain it. She has a son, who does not live with us but the IRS does not know that. If I can get them tax ID numbers, my USA taxes will be trivial. I will maintain my USA citizenship no matter what. She would like to live in California for a short time before we retire. Her son would like to goto UCLA. I cannot see how I would blame him.

BBC Watcher... I think the USA is a good place to visit, and a good place to goto school. I agree it is no place to live. The taxes are unreal. Crime goes on unchecked. If I was to become a criminal then of all countries in the world I would pick the USA to live in.


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## BBCWatcher

Linuxpro said:


> I will apply for USA PR for my wife and visit the USA every year so she can maintain it.


Why?



> She has a son, who does not live with us but the IRS does not know that.


There's no "cloak and dagger" behavior required. The U.S. Child Tax Credit does not require that a child be physically with the taxpayer. There are numerous exceptions the IRS helpfully describes.



> Her son would like to goto UCLA. I cannot see how I would blame him.


UCLA is great. U.S. citizens often qualify for lower tuition rates at U.S. universities. Since UCLA is a state university, a lower in-state tuition rate may be possible, for example. Also, U.S. citizens often have access to U.S. federal student loans, while international students generally do not qualify.



> BBC Watcher... I think the USA is a good place to visit, and a good place to goto school. I agree it is no place to live. The taxes are unreal. Crime goes on unchecked. If I was to become a criminal then of all countries in the world I would pick the USA to live in.


I would disagree with most of that. U.S. taxes are on the low side of developed country norms. (So is Singapore, for perspective.) Europe, Japan, Australia, and New Zealand have generally higher tax rates -- and lower median incomes quite often. The U.S. is a consumer's paradise, and while there are some consumption taxes (sales taxes) they aren't like European VATs. Crime rates are moderate and falling. The country is so large that there are many more choices in terms of climate, housing and other living costs, cultural opportunities, recreation, etc. than in most countries. If your spouse is of the same sex then the U.S. is far better than most countries, and in certain career sectors there's no place to be except the U.S. if you want the best opportunities. The U.S. is also remarkably accepting of individuals/families from many cultures, backgrounds, religious traditions, etc. There's also an amazing variety of ethnic enclaves in major cities. Chances are excellent you'll find several someones like you somewhere in the U.S.

U.S. medical care is expensive but starting to get better. (One way to partially solve that problem is to live near the Canadian border and dash across it for medical care.) Higher education is also expensive but the best in the world. Public elementary and secondary education is too highly variable in quality, so you have to choose your place of residence in those terms carefully. Infrastructure is a bit creaky, but see above about taxes, and that also depends where you are. (You get what you pay for so often. If you want European or Japanese transit systems there's a price for that.) U.S. Social Security is superb. A lot of people criticize the U.S. Postal Service -- it seems to be something of a pastime -- but objectively it's excellent by global standards. The professional baseball is great, and the soccer isn't.

Anyway, it depends what you want in a country, but the U.S. (quite obviously) has several positive attributes. And some negative ones -- no country is perfect.


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## USA_Singa

BBC, whilst we clearly have different perspectives on the US and its future one thing I can correct one thing. You must file every single year whether you owe anything or not. 

I gave an incredibly oversimplified version for easy digestion of my position to consider renunciation, this is the only year my income has been $0. With my new job I will be well over $200k per year. Also I am in the process of selling my house and will be liable for gains on that as well. I won't go back through point by point as we clearly have had different experiences and different accountants....

My comments on SS benefits is my personal belief that the system will not be in existence in its present state by the time I reach retirement age. Also if I pay nothing, yet receive the Child Tax Credit am I not part of the leeching of the system that I personally abhor? I know it is not a popular stance these days to not eat from the pot you don't contribute to, but hey, that's just me. 

Just as an aside, it seems we also tick different boxes in the voting booth, but one thing holds true, we both came here for a reason, and doubt it was for less opportunity and a worse life.


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## wesmant

Well, interesting debate here.

Pardon my poor reading compre, But the point that USA_Singa brought up was no"high US Tax", but the fact that "he needs to pay tax for any source pf income all over the world, yet nt enjoying any perks from US or the tax he paid".

Those two are differences, to my poor english. And if it is cleared from beginning, there's no taxrate debate would have happened here.

Btw, this kind of sentiment exist everywhere, including in SG. Does anyone realise that many locals nowaday are not happy for too for the influx of immigrant to SG? I am pretty sure, the same was in USA_Singa'post when he mentioned that his paid tax is enjoyed by "alien" in the US rather than him, as a US passport holder


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## Linuxpro

I am not discounting why Singaporeans may be disgusted with so many immigrants. I do not know how the behavior of immigrants affects them. I can tell you why we are disgusted with them in the USA.

I will skip the examples. But, I will tell you that the immigrants are very nasty to Americans. They do not respect our laws. Law enforcement tends to treat them very gingerly, as if to say, "Well, he is new here, and he did not understand our laws. You have insurance, what is your problem white boy!".


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## wesmant

Linuxpro: I went by the sentiment from USA-Singa that he's not happy that the tax he paid in the end benefit the "alien" in the US.

Singapore has been a migrate country from the past, and back then, the migrant are actually following the way Singapore does. However, lately the symptom is rather similar (tho is not particularly the same) to the one you briefly described 
well, maybe not to all immigrant . In addition to it, these newly come people are entering job market of all level, make a stiff competition on pay, which makes living to becoming heavier and heavier, unlike in the past where most migrant fill up the sectors that's not desirable by the locals.

hence, this kinda sentiment is rising here.


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## Agan

USA_Singa said:


> Wes, if i was worried about someone being kapoh I wouldn't have shared. Something people who post so many things on FB seem to not understand.
> 
> Simple answer as possible is that as an American I am taxed on all income derived around the globe although I use no benefits, roads, schools fire, police etc. So by law I required to pay US tax and Singapore tax. A step further is that with the IRS and FATCA rules i am required to not only report all of my assets, but those of my Singaporean wife if we have any joint accounts. I don't think the US has any rights or reason to know if my wife has any assets, income etc period. I also begrudge the fact that I am required to pay tax, yet not able to claim any benefit. This last year I have been unemployed I certainly could not claim unemployment benefits, welfare, housing benefits, food stamps etc, however am required to pay tax to support illegal immigrants in America. When I worked for an American employer in Singapore they withheld US Social Security (which will not exist by the time i am age eligible), however I can't receive benefits here, nor was I allowed to take advantage of the companies 401k plan because I was overseas.
> 
> Now with FATCA the compliance requirements by foreign banks are causing them to dump American clients because the reporting requirements are so onerous and costly it is not worth having us as clients. This translates to difficulty getting bank loans for a car, house or any other routine needs we need anywhere we may live or even a bank account at all. This also translates to employers also turning away from us as employees. A local company has no desire to train or invest the time and money to HR, accounts or any other department to comply with US law. It is outrageous really.
> 
> As I have no assets in the US, no desire to return and have lived the bulk of my adult life overseas I see no reason to ever return. Also considering tax rates, economy, safety, and long term prospects I think Asia is the place to put my stake in the ground. Now that we have decided not to have any more children, and they were born while i was an American citizen they are entitled to American citizenship should they ever desire it. I have not registered their births though with the embassy or applied for US passports for them either. I can only imagine my future 35 year old child someday being required to pay US tax while living in Spain and being required to report assets of her Croat husband both of which may have never even been to the US.... Just something to think about.
> 
> Another verbose response I know, but since you asked I thought I would indulge you. I used to brag about the fact that America was a place that if you just did your thing and didn't harm others you would be left alone to do as you wish. Now as we know that is not the case and truth be told likely far more invasive than the Singaporean boogie man. It is also easier and safer for my family to travel on their Singapore passports than my American one stuffed full of Visas I used to not need. Ok, I will stop now as this could go on for a few pages at least. I love what the US stands for at its core, unfortunately those principles and standards have been eroded over time to a place that like a late stage cancer patient is barely recognizable and I have lost hope in its recovery.
> 
> P.S. If anyone were to question my patriotism I would note that I am a ten year military vet with campaign medals from Afghanistan, Iraq, and other locations.



Thanks for the insight


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## Linuxpro

wesmant said:


> Linuxpro: I went by the sentiment from USA-Singa that he's not happy that the tax he paid in the end benefit the "alien" in the US.


I see. Well, all I can do is my best. I will not be overcrowding their schools because I am not having children. I will not be overcrowding their street because I do not own a car. I will not be preventing a Singapore woman from being a wife and mother for a Singapore man, because my soon to be wife is from Myanmar. I pay the exorbitant rent so the elderly will have retirement income. 

I donate at temple. I pay taxes. I spend money locally. I do everything a good resident can do. 

I cannot help with the perceived "birthrate problem". I consider children to be vanity. I have no desire to be a father. If I did, I could easily marry a 25 year old Singapore women, and get PR the easy way. But that is not how I do things.


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## BBCWatcher

USA_Singa said:


> BBC, whilst we clearly have different perspectives on the US and its future one thing I can correct one thing. You must file every single year whether you owe anything or not.


I think you are misinformed.

You have no U.S. IRS filing requirement if your total gross income was below US$3,800 (tax year 2012, Married Filing Separately). The threshold is higher for other filing statuses and later tax years.

If the amount of tax you owe is zero or less (i.e. you are due a refund or refundable tax credit), even if you are obliged to file there is no penalty for nonfiling.

If you have non-U.S. financial accounts which had a total value of US$10,000 or more at any time you are required to file a FBAR by June 30 of the following year. You now do that online. There is no tax owed -- it's a report only.

If you are a young male U.S. citizen living outside the U.S. you are required to register with U.S. Selective Service at age 18. You also do that online.

I have just listed the total filing responsibilities for U.S. citizens living outside the U.S. Notably, unlike other citizenships, U.S. citizens are not required to notify their government of a change in address, change in household composition (such as marriage or divorce), etc.

Each country has its pros and cons.



> I gave an incredibly oversimplified version for easy digestion of my position to consider renunciation, this is the only year my income has been $0. With my new job I will be well over $200k per year.


At that time you may have a U.S. tax liability.



> Also I am in the process of selling my house and will be liable for gains on that as well.


Maybe, maybe not. The U.S. tax code strongly favors owner-occupied primary residences and mortgages on such properties.



> I won't go back through point by point as we clearly have had different experiences and different accountants....


We undoubtedly have different accountants, but we have the same tax codes. The U.S. tax code is exactly as I've described. If your accountant doesn't understand the tax code, fire him/her.



> My comments on SS benefits is my personal belief that the system will not be in existence in its present state by the time I reach retirement age.


Perhaps not, but it will pay you substantial benefits if you have at least 10 years of nontrivial contributions. How substantial is a slight variable but only slight.



> Also if I pay nothing, yet receive the Child Tax Credit am I not part of the leeching of the system that I personally abhor?


Well, if you are concerned about that then you can pay, say, a 50% average tax rate by making a substantial voluntary contribution to the U.S. Treasury. Or at least take the total outlays that the U.S. government made during your direct association with the U.S., divide by the U.S. population, subtract the taxes you paid, and pay the balance to the U.S. as a voluntary contribution. (It's quite likely there will be a balance for you.)

Or you can help out your kid if you qualify because you had an off year. The U.S. government and her people through their democratically elected representatives have decided kids should suffer less even when their parents had an off year. Because you'll pay it back, or at least your kid will. (And you cannot get the ACTC unless you were trying, i.e. had some earned income.)

Do you really think it costs only 73+ cents to ride the bus or train in Singapore? Yes, that's the price you pay, but if you simply ride the bus or train in Singapore you're "leeching."



> I know it is not a popular stance these days to not eat from the pot you don't contribute to, but hey, that's just me.


Your kid might feel differently. And you're already eating from the pot you don't contribute to here in Singapore if your income was $0 and you rode the bus, walked on the sidewalk, enjoyed police protection, etc.

We have these things called societies. All societies allocate resources in ways that are different than they were obtained, just as all households do. (Do children "leech" off their parents? Yes, they most certainly do, in myriad ways that can never be repaid.) And this has been true throughout the history of human civilization. There may be different ways to organize a society, but it's pretty ridiculous to question the existence of society, or "leeching" if you prefer. For example, hopefully we can all agree that a civilization/society has a responsibility to provide for the welfare of children at least when their parents cannot (e.g. orphans), i.e. that children should be "leeches." The U.S. has chosen to take care of its children partially through its tax code. So has Singapore, by the way.



> Just as an aside, it seems we also tick different boxes in the voting booth....


How do you know that?


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## Linuxpro

USA_Singa said:


> allow me to share my personal information.


I was born poor. My father was a Vietnam War vet that had to be looked after. Much of the time he spent huddled in a corner in the dark. The rest of the time he beat me up. I had to drive when I was not old enough (14). My mother was sick, and my father was in jail much of the time. Later I had a part time job so that we could eat.

I grew up in a "Warzone". The Mexican kids also beat me up. How do you think I felt in school when the teachers told us how "advantaged" I was because I was white?

I joined the US military just in time to go to Kuwait. I was clipped by a bullet in the leg, then sent home because my mother died. I was not a pleasant person to be around when I came back. I could not sleep. I retracted badly when surprised, and nearly injured a few people. I turned to Buddhism to silence the "noise" in my head. I went to collage on the VA.

I lost my home and much of my retirement in the economic meltdown and my divorce. 

I came to Singapore for some peace. To be honest, that is all I ask for.


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## BBCWatcher

Singapore offers peace of a certain sort. If an urban environment is incompatible with one's definition of peace I wouldn't recommend Singapore, but that word has many definitions.

If I haven't been clear, I like Singapore, but I also wouldn't claim that any country is the best for everyone or even for most people. For example, if your passion is skiing then Singapore is not a good place to live. Also, if you prefer monocultures, you probably won't like Singapore which is extremely culturally diverse.

People get very passionate and anti-passionate about countries for some reason. I guess that goes with the territory in this forum, but if we're to be helpful we should at least try to keep the facts front and center. It's confusing enough as it is. As examples, the U.S. flat out beats Singapore if you want to ski, have (or want) a same sex spouse, or want to privately own as many firearms as you can afford. (I recall one thread where an American was upset that somebody was even talking about firearms registration -- maybe he just read an e-mail from the NRA? -- and was asking which country he should move to so that he could carry his AK-47. Yemen was the best alternative anybody could come up with, and perhaps understandably that answer wasn't appealing.) On the other hand, Singapore has a lower crime rate, has better mass transit probably than every U.S. city, and current tax rates are generally lower (as three examples). It just depends what you're looking for, and thank goodness the planet has variety.


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## USA_Singa

BBC, you seem to be fixated on my one year of $0 income. Looking back, i don't think i took the bus this last year, i did make my car payments, buy petrol and pay road tax and ERP and am very confident none of that was subsidized, quite the opposite actually. My wife still certainly paid taxes, and every other year i paid significantly more than here and have probably have some sidewalk fee credits paid in advance for my off year. I think we tick different boxes because our viewpoints are clearly divergent. The role of taxes, society, and personal responsibility are more in line in Singapore with my perspective than the US, so I am staking my claim here. Don't get me wrong, there are many things here I disagree with, however this is where I live, my family lives and my extended family. 

I have always told everyone over the years that if they don't like where they are at, leave. So, in line with that I have chosen to do the same. The things I do dislike here i can't be a part of the ultimate change unless i can tick the box here. Someday I may decide my fortunes lie elsewhere and if and when that day comes having a Singapore passport will seem to afford just as many opportunities to work and live abroad without the weight of US tax laws or oversight. I don't think the the Singapore government will be monitoring my phone calls and email once I leave the country....

Wes, being a mat saleh, ang moh, or whatever the phrase of the day is I have personally not felt the anti foreigner sentiment so much maybe as people of other ethnic backgrounds. Well the guys never seem to like to see their women married off to another race. My wife is Malay (i prefer the term Singaporean but that is another matter). We live in an HDB, have two Singaporean born children, the newest addition of which is a boy, who will by birthright be serving NS. I don't spit on the street, I don't litter, I wear deodorant, I let people come out of lifts/trains/busses before I alight (as basic laws of matter and space seem to apply to only make rational sense), I open doors for people, I help people with strollers, wheel chairs, heavy objects if I see they are in need, I don't load my plate at the buffet line as I realize they will make more, and let women and children eat first before I go myself. So i guess in some ways I haven't assimilated, but in ways that i am proud of and the same standards as I will raise my children to believe is right. I pay my taxes, am part of an organization that does a lot of charity here and whilst was never required or asked help out with a little pocket money for my wife's parents and contribute to their quality of life in retirement as and when I see a need. If the rice cooker looks a little worn or I see a leak at the faucet I do what I can. Now all of that being said, maybe that is why I haven't felt the anti foreigner sentiment because I live in and am part of the community, society, and country in which I live. Heck, I drink beer at the coffee shop with a few cubes of ice with the taxi drivers, the movers, the factory workers. My wife says I am too local in that regard and those are, well, lets say not the company I should be seen with. Haha, but I counter that if I wanted to drink Budweiser, talk about the Kardashians and how great my holidays and summer home were I could have just stayed in America, I didn't need to come here to do it at Harry's.

Linux, I love Burma and if your Misses is anything like the the people from there I have had the pleasure to associate with, I am sure you are a happy man. Our stories have similar undercurrents, but far different outcomes. My dad is retired Air Force, did his Vietnam experience, and was distant in ways related to that but lucky that when he married my mother the drinking was a deal breaker and he quit. Youngest of 5 kids we moved to Alaska when I was a baby and my dad retired from the AF there, so where I was raised. I also grew up poor, but we were always in clean clothes, had food to eat, never a new car, and a home made cake at birthdays, but never really any party other than a modest gift or two and mom would make our favorite meal to the best of her culinary ability. I was raised with the fierce independent spirit that seems to be either born of the people from Alaska, the draw for those that move there, or required because of the harsh environment. Any expectation of a handout, benefit or reward that you hadn't worked for or earned was sacrilege in my home. Once again more values I will impart to my children. 

I have got to say to all here that this is why I love living and traveling and working overseas. It is the broad spectrum of people and experiences and opinions that I never would have had if I had stayed hunkered down in the comforts of America.


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## Linuxpro

Good thing I have no use for guns or shopping.


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## wesmant

Linuxpro said:


> I see. Well, all I can do is my best. I will not be overcrowding their schools because I am not having children. I will not be overcrowding their street because I do not own a car. I will not be preventing a Singapore woman from being a wife and mother for a Singapore man, because my soon to be wife is from Myanmar. I pay the exorbitant rent so the elderly will have retirement income.
> 
> I donate at temple. I pay taxes. I spend money locally. I do everything a good resident can do.
> 
> I cannot help with the perceived "birthrate problem". I consider children to be vanity. I have no desire to be a father. If I did, I could easily marry a 25 year old Singapore women, and get PR the easy way. But that is not how I do things.


Linuxpro, not all migrants are like you. As I mentioned earlier, Singapore has been a migrant country for long, too long that's probably longer than its nation. However, the sentiment has just came up recently, to my observation. well... that simply means that there are new factors that trigger this sentiment. And looking at your description, I am quite sure that you are not the kind of migrant those people resisting 

Looking at the way you live, you'll probably have a good life to live here 



USA_Singa said:


> Wes, being a mat saleh, ang moh, or whatever the phrase of the day is I have personally not felt the anti foreigner sentiment so much maybe as people of other ethnic backgrounds. Well the guys never seem to like to see their women married off to another race. My wife is Malay (i prefer the term Singaporean but that is another matter). We live in an HDB, have two Singaporean born children, the newest addition of which is a boy, who will by birthright be serving NS. I don't spit on the street, I don't litter, I wear deodorant, I let people come out of lifts/trains/busses before I alight (as basic laws of matter and space seem to apply to only make rational sense), I open doors for people, I help people with strollers, wheel chairs, heavy objects if I see they are in need, I don't load my plate at the buffet line as I realize they will make more, and let women and children eat first before I go myself. So i guess in some ways I haven't assimilated, but in ways that i am proud of and the same standards as I will raise my children to believe is right. I pay my taxes, am part of an organization that does a lot of charity here and whilst was never required or asked help out with a little pocket money for my wife's parents and contribute to their quality of life in retirement as and when I see a need. If the rice cooker looks a little worn or I see a leak at the faucet I do what I can. Now all of that being said, maybe that is why I haven't felt the anti foreigner sentiment because I live in and am part of the community, society, and country in which I live. Heck, I drink beer at the coffee shop with a few cubes of ice with the taxi drivers, the movers, the factory workers. My wife says I am too local in that regard and those are, well, lets say not the company I should be seen with. Haha, but I counter that if I wanted to drink Budweiser, talk about the Kardashians and how great my holidays and summer home were I could have just stayed in America, I didn't need to come here to do it at Harry's.


Fair enough, if that's your way of live, I am dead sure you'll be one of the most adorable ang moh in your neighbourhood 

Well, I think you understood quite well the situation on the ground. and yes, from what i observe, many locals are resisting those migrant who's like moving their country to Singapore. meaning to say, trying to be exclusive, and some are taking the local's "space".

Back to the main issue in this thread, people like Linuxpro and yourself, USA_Singa, are probably the preferred migrant to the society here, however, not all are like you two. And those of different kind make the situation a little different lately, where some locals are getting uneasy with migrant. That's beside probably many other factors from different source that may add up to make it worse.

On the other hand, this has forced govt, in this sense ICA, to respond to public by tightening the whole Process for PR (and also any Working visas) for foreigner.
Despite all these facts, I believe sincere migrant (like you two, to what I understand here) will get yourself settled in Singapore, once your effort of getting your permanent status here.

Do enjoy the whole process and the life here


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## BBCWatcher

USA_Singa said:


> The role of taxes, society, and personal responsibility are more in line in Singapore with my perspective than the US, so I am staking my claim here. Don't get me wrong, there are many things here I disagree with, however this is where I live, my family lives and my extended family.


Yes, that's my point. "Different strokes for different folks" and all.

However, your leeching comment was not well considered in my view. We all "leech" at times. You leeched from your mother, very literally, as we all did. Throughout your childhood you leeched. You also paid less or zero in taxes in Singapore a particular year, in which case I subsidized you: your police protection, your share of consumption of Singapore's infrastructure, food safety inspections, a functioning legal system with contract enforcement, financial regulation, and myriad other government services that we sometimes take for granted. _And that's perfectly OK!_ That's called "a developed society." If the shoe were on the other foot I would expect the same. I wouldn't expect to maintain the same _lifestyle_, and I also wouldn't expect to be left bleeding to death on the streets of Singapore no matter what bad luck I had. That's what responsible members of a developed society do through their democratically elected representatives, they make resource allocation decisions which vary among countries. Virtually all countries do so to some degree, _including Singapore_.

There are a couple countries (or "countries") that don't have much government. Somalia is probably a good example. If you're looking for a leech-free "every person for him/herself" society, it's not Singapore. Somalia is much closer to the mark.


----------



## USA_Singa

The travails of text, its hard to communicate in a one sided conversation. I think at some point we agree more than we disagree. If you are familiar with the leech you will note that it only takes and never returns. This is of course excluding medicinal purposes but lest I digress we will pass on the splitting of hairs and stick with intent. As far as leeching off of my mother and parents, that was a conscious decision they made and agreed to through the pregnancy and birth process. If they had 5 children, never worked and we lived off of public housing, welfare and SNAP i would be the first now to say they were irresponsible and drained the system. I would agree that there may be instances or points in life that we could all use a helping hand. I certainly hope that I have not come across as anti government or anarchist. Of course a civilized, organized society needs rules, law, enforcement and infrastructure that needs to be managed in a competent way. 

There are those that live their entire lives on the dole/welfare/council estates that just suck up resources and never return or contribute. That I have a problem with and in Singapore it is nearly impossible to do, and for those that try it is a very meager and miserable existence. In fact I wholeheartedly agree or believe that the gov could and should do far more to help the disadvantage here. Give a fish, teach a man to fish, you know the drill. For a country with the vast amount of savings in the bank I think they could do a little more. Now America being trillions of dollars in debt could use some tightening of the purse strings, and certainly for the non citizens, non residents, non contributors. We can discuss the price of $20 tomatoes if union employees picked them vs "undocumented workers" as well plenty of other things that could and should be modified. The system itself needs to be reformed and in a big way.

I have a problem with people milking the system. How many SS dollars go to people who are "depressed" have "migraines" "back problems" etc? Well I think we can't honestly answer the question of all the people taking advantage of the system. I do know here that my CPF contributions will go to me. What I pay in I will get back. I can invest my contributions now in to a home or investments. I like that. I don't really think you can possibly believe that is the case in America. The entire conversation is likely best held over a few drinks and some decent food and we may never agree, I do however enjoy the sharing of thoughts and ideas in a civilized manner and know that I never intend to come across with ill will or intent.


----------



## USA_Singa

Onswipe 

Not sure there is anything more to say really. The link above says it all.


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## BBCWatcher

Would you accept that, financially speaking, most of the leeches (by your definition) are quite wealthy? And that it's quite possible to be permanently disabled, in which case society ought to take care of your basic needs?

General Electric is an example of a leech by your definition. The company receives huge taxpayer subsidizes every year in the U.S. Exxon-Mobile is another infamous example.

SNAP isn't. It isn't much to begin with, and there isn't much fraud. (There's a bit, but there's no fraud-free program on the planet.)


----------



## USA_Singa

There is no doubt that that corporations like GE, ExxonMobile, Google, and countless other Fortune 500 businesses are leeches. They receive massive subsidies, rake in massive profits, flagrantly use every global accounting and tax loopholes to thumb their nose at everyone and pay $0 in tax. Even better they enjoy the pleasure of large government contracts.

I absolutely agree that we as a society have a moral and financial obligation to care for the disabled in a humane and compassionate way. There are those with mental, physical, degenerative diseases that are truly disabled and need lifelong assistance and care. 

On to the fraud portion, on this I am not convinced. Digressing to an earlier topic, it is akin to voter fraud. It is impossible to even suggest such a thing when there are not proper controls and measures in place. How do we know at all?


----------



## BBCWatcher

Audits and statistical sampling is how. Yes, there is some fraud in government benefit programs -- in both the U.S. and in Singapore. SNAP, the U.S. "Food Stamps" program, for example, has a fraud rate of about 1.3%. Fraud in this case is defined as a beneficiary (who is almost always properly qualified for SNAP) converting SNAP benefits to cash at a grocery store via a clerk who takes a cut. In other words, it's technically fraud, but it's not the most worrisome kind of fraud. (The article linked above explains why.)

By the way, I should have added bankers to the list of "leechers." In my view the U.S. government should have swooped in and seized at least a couple of the large banks in the U.S. during the financial crisis, firing their managers and wiping out their shareholders. Many of those banks were completely insolvent. The FDIC already does this with smaller banks. Depositors would have been protected, as with the FDIC. Instead, U.S. governmental institutions pumped massive amounts of cash into those banks to keep them afloat. So what we now have is a banking system in which the gains are privatized and the losses are socialized. That's a big problem. Another big problem is the increasing financialization of the U.S. economy. Banking doesn't actually produce anything of value except in helping to match lenders with borrowers to facilitate prudent, economically productive pursuits. However, despite the fact that banking is more computerized and automated than ever (and thus lower cost), the share of GDP that the financial sector represents has continued to increase. This is the very definition of leeching -- it's an increasing tax on the real economy. I would also add that Singapore's economy is heavily based on this leeching. I'm certainly not saying all banking and financial institutions are bad -- far from it -- but we've seen way too much "financial innovation" which is simply about financial institutions figuring out how to increase their percentage haul from the real economy. That trend is unsustainable.


----------



## GCH

*PR*

I just applied for my PR, they accepted copies of everything. They just asked me to sign an affidavit. Tere is no sense to their madness, but hey what ever floats their boat.





Linuxpro said:


> Hey dudes and dudettes! My brother managed to get all my papers. I will resubmit my PR application next month.
> 
> I had a thought! And no it did not hurt!  lol
> 
> 1. I think the PR thing is more of a lottery than anything else. I have spoken to people who have far less to offer, and make a lot less money than I do. They were approved in the last 12 months. The guy I talked to yesterday is a waiter!
> 
> 2. Lets face it, PR is really about getting future votes than anything else. All the words you hear about future babies to serve NS is crap. The power that be are buying votes. That is why we are allowed here.
> 
> Anyway many of the guys I chatted with gave me much encouragement.


----------



## Linuxpro

GCH said:


> I just applied for my PR, they accepted copies of everything. They just asked me to sign an affidavit. Tere is no sense to their madness, but hey what ever floats their boat.


Now that pisses me off. The uncle rejected my birth certificate because he compared the original to the copy. About 2mm was cut off on the edge of the copy. There was no writing cut off. He also rejected the copy of my divorce decree even though the clerk of the court in the USA stamped and signed it.

I am going back next week to re-submit. Clearly Singapore runs on paperwork. That is one thing I avoid at all costs. It work I often pay for things myself because anything under $100 is not worth my time filling out papers. Personally I think forms only need three blanks (name, date, account number, phone, describe what you want in one paragraph).


----------



## Linuxpro

Sorry I mean five blanks, but you get the idea. Paperwork gets me fustrated.


----------



## jb51490

Hi guys,

I am also in the same boat as some of you. I have been in Singapore on P1 pass and applied for PR in October 2012. IT's been 13 months and still pending.

I applied with for my Spouse and 2 daughters.

Any idea why its taking so long.


----------



## jb51490

I am also in same situation as some of you. Still waiting for PR (14 months and counting). 

I applied along with my wife and 2 daughters (2 and 5).

any ideas why its taking so long, I understand these days very tough to get it. I am not worried on outcome and wait is killing me.


----------



## simonsays

there was a time, when it took 16 months before a yes/no came .. 

you gotta wait, if you are so keen on PR

If you are not happy to wait, you can always "REVOKE" the application ....

what does it say on the online enquiry page ?


----------



## beppi

They have a huge backlog of cases to be processed -average waiting time has gone up considerably and more than 12 months seems to be normal now.
There is nothing you can do to speed things up (short of sponsoring the salary of more processing officers, probably).


----------



## simonsays

and application interview dates - earliest is like six months away ..  figure that out ..


----------



## philgallo

Beppi has nailed it I think - it may take a few runs at the application for it to go through.


----------



## Lin Clark

*Sharing Experience*

I'm new to this forum as well as this thread. Thought it'd be useful to let you all know how the PR application process went for me. I got my appointment in December though I logged on in August. It took me about two months to get all my paperwork done (I moved a lot, went to school and lived in many countries, so my papers were from everywhere).

Partly because I'm trained to do a lot of my paperwork, I worked real hard to get my application packet done right, knowing I needed to make it as easy as possible for the review. When I submitted it, the Immigration officer reviewed the whole packet, probably in under 10 minutes. But yes, I did see another Immigration officer reject another application packet straight up, on the basis of incomplete / wrong responses.

I received my in-principle approval for PR in 3 months and I was informed that in another 2 years, I could proceed to submit my application for Citizenship.

I think that there may also be a quota that works on a calendar year basis. Since I applied at the end of the year, Immigration may have only looked at my application in the new year and maybe there were a lot of places available then before they got winnowed down over the year?

If it helps, here's my profile: age 43, widowed, PhD, I specialize in Public Policy / have worked for foreign governments, I make $80K per annum and I've been residing in Singapore for slightly over 3 years at the time of the PR application.

I hope all will go well for every PR applicant and I really don't think we can ever figure out the criteria. We might as well calmly have a drink and keep our fingers crossed.


----------



## jb51490

Congrats !!!

I am still in the same boat.18 months passed by, still pending. When I enquired,they mentioned still under process and no further documents needed at this point. It's been four years in Singapore with same employer and on P1 pass with 115k per annum. I am 34 now, applied for family(spouse and 2 daughters). May be ICA considers daughters as negative point as they loose out on NS. 

I even received letter from ICA stating that PR is in progress.

Not sure how long is it going to take.


----------



## simonsays

jb51490 said:


> May be ICA considers daughters as negative point as they loose out on NS. .


really?

so ica will make Singapore a-la parts of India where men to women ratio is so skewed

just stop imagining stuff

recently a friend with 4 daughters got citizenship here .... for you info ...


----------



## apandey

I am an Electronics Engineer. My age is 31. I am married. Presently I have no kids.
Please suggest how to proceed for SPR?


----------



## simonsays

apandey said:


> I am an Electronics Engineer. My age is 31. I am married. Presently I have no kids.
> Please suggest how to proceed for SPR?


are you in Singapore?

start reading at www.ica.gov.sg


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## apandey

ecureilx said:


> are you in Singapore?
> 
> start reading at www.ica.gov.sg



Now I am in India. 
So I have to first search job in Singapore?


----------



## beppi

So, you still didn't read as you were advised?
You have to live in Singapore for a few years to become PR!


----------



## simonsays

beppi said:


> So, you still didn't read as you were advised?
> You have to live in Singapore for a few years to become PR!


exactly ...

unless you have relative here ...


----------



## Eva Harper

ecureilx said:


> exactly ...
> 
> unless you have relative here ...


Not necessarily.

You know what, in other perspective, it's simpler to be a citizen than a PR.


----------



## simonsays

Eva Harper said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> You know what, in other perspective, it's simpler to be a citizen than a PR.


seriously ?

can you explain how to become a citizen in Singapore unless 1) you work here or 2) you have blood ties or 3) can put upwards of 2.5 mil $ in investment ...


----------



## beppi

iagpr said:


> Looking for people who are genuinely keen to be a singaporean PR. (higher success rate) Do contact me at [number removed] to find out more.
> 
> Thanks


Applying for Singapore PR is a fairly simple affair that you can easily manage without help such as the one offered above.
Furthermore, nobody (other than you yourself) can influence the success rate. On the contrary, commercial visa agents (as I assume the above poster is) are disliked by ICA and using one can (and will) reduce your chances.
Altogether this is not something you should pay any money for!


----------



## Linuxpro

I gave up on the idea. Paperwork is a painful experience for me. Most of the time I do not bother to turn in expense reports at my workplace simply because anything under about $100 is not worth the pain. Entering ambiguous expense codes, and filling in boxes that have no logical answer are too much for me. I even offered my co-workers half of the refund if they fill out the forms for me. I had no luck because they do the same as I do. 

I applied, for PR, a year ago. I went to the appointment and was "shot down" on the spot. The uncle criticized the quality of the copy of my birth certificate, and my divorce decree. Furthermore they said there are blanks on my birth certificate that are not filled in. I am sorry if the state of California does not meet their standards. 

He also said I used incorrect terminology in some of the boxes. The instructions do not say the exact words that are legal in that box. How am I supposed to know what they want? My wife has a son back in Myanmar. He is not moving to Singapore. Do we list him or not? Nobody can answer that one. He said I could come back within 30 days with the corrections. I just did not feel up to being "shot" down after spending roughly 20 hours filling the forms out.

Obviously they prefer someone who has two or three children that the Singapore tax payer must provide an education for rather than a childfree person who never uses any taxpayer services, and pays maximum taxes. This kind of thinking along with the "baby bonus" is just going to drive Singapore to become a "welfare nation" like most of the Western counties are now.

I will never be able to afford to retire here even though now I have over $200,000 in investments and even more in my social security account, so naturally I plan to move on eventually.


----------



## luckystar269

beppi said:


> From the viewpoint of the Singapore authorities:
> - you earn well (but not stellar), contribute to the Singapore economy and pay taxes (positive)
> - you are relatively old and may not work much longer (negative)
> (applying for PR is only possible up to 50 years old - Singapore does not want foreign retirees using its limited resources even if they pay for it!
> - you are single, at least as of now (negative)
> - you probably won't produce kids due to your age (negative)
> - you are not of the preferred Chinese ancestry (negative)
> Therefore your chances for becoming PR are low. I would even say without marrying a Singapore citizen (and applying for PR 2 years afterwards) you are pretty sure to be rejected.
> 
> 
> (P.S.: Boys who are PR have to serve NS regardless of where they were born.)


thanks for your sharing


----------



## BBCWatcher

Linuxpro said:


> Obviously they prefer someone who has two or three children that the Singapore tax payer must provide an education for rather than a childfree person who never uses any taxpayer services, and pays maximum taxes. This kind of thinking along with the "baby bonus" is just going to drive Singapore to become a "welfare nation" like most of the Western counties are now.


You're assuming taxpayers in Singapore pay to educate the children of PRs. They really don't, much. Assuming a public school education (not always the case!), PRs are strictly behind citizens in school placements, so they must attend the schools that citizens do not fill. Although the exact cost figures are not easily obtainable, it appears PRs pay approximately much of their real marginal costs of their placements. Primary school monthly fees are currently (2014) S$103 per PR, for example. (I think it's about S$6 per month for citizens.)

Leaving that aside, yes, the Singaporean government (quite sensibly) wants to make investments that will likely bear future benefits. Without (Singaporean) children there are soon no Singaporean adults. PR children are future possible Singaporean adults, so the government is (or at least would be) willing to take that bet to some degree. That's perfectly rational and logical.

Yes, you've stated repeatedly you don't want children, and that's perfectly fine as a personal decision. However, all societies that plan to persist into the future need children simply because we're all mortal. Singapore has a societal problem that Singaporeans aren't having many babies. The PR path is one, second best way to produce more Singaporeans.

Children are _always_ an investment. I haven't seen many infants assembling refrigerators or providing tax accounting services, as examples. Parents always bear most of the costs of raising and educating children. Governments sometimes help at the margins, but that marginal help can be absolutely critical to society's overall long-term viability.


----------



## simonsays

Linuxpro said:


> *Obviously they prefer someone who has two or three children *that the Singapore tax payer must provide an education for rather than a childfree person who never uses any taxpayer services, and pays maximum taxes. *This kind of thinking along with the "baby bonus" is just going to drive Singapore to become a "welfare nation" like most of the Western counties are now.*


That's what YOU THINK !

Sorry to say, you are totally off the mark

It isn't like Singapore wants all the boxes ticked, for them to give PR

I know few, one divorced to his Filipino wife, another RAF Retiree doing nothing in SG, and another, married to a SG girl but no kids nor any plans for kids as both have kids from previous marriage, and so and so

That your thinking that Baby bonus will bankrupt Singapore is a big joke. It's not like the govt gives monthly allowance etc for those with babies

Singapore always has and will have a budget with surplus and enough reserves to tide them over.

For a start .. the bonus will not exactly be a serious incentive to have more kids, if you know the cost of bringing up kids here.

The Baby bonus in all reality only offsets a portion of the expenses

Plus having more baby helps in having bigger apartments, which in turn means higher lease repayment .. 




Linuxpro said:


> I will never be able to afford to retire here even though now I have over $200,000 in investments and even more in my social security account, so naturally I plan to move on eventually.


That money you talk of, is immaterial

Now if only you take time to read what they ask, ensure the information is provided, if not give an explanation note, it would have been a walk in the park

I have assisted a few PR applications for friends I know, and I don't recall them being the equivalent of a High School exam 

And the officers always let you come back with missing information, and never did they throw tantrum and throw all the papers, or rejected on the spot

Speechless I am, by the way !!


----------



## BBCWatcher

Ecureilx, I'd say that having children most likely represents a point or two in favor of the PR applicant. Lack of children is not disqualifying.


----------



## simonsays

BBCWatcher said:


> Ecureilx, I'd say that having children most likely represents a point or two in favor of the PR applicant. Lack of children is not disqualifying.


having children, having intention to have children, having intention to have more children etc is all subjective

As of now, a certain race seems to be getting rejected, more often with a minority being approved for PR/SC among that race, apparently for their over-producing !!

The govt wants children, but not at the cost of upsetting the 'social' balance !!! Or so I believe


----------



## luckystar269

thank you ecureilx for your post.


----------



## darkwalker

Just sharing my experience on my PR application. I am Malaysian IT professional in mid 30s which have submitted my PR application on 2nd week September 2014. Worked in Singapore for the past 11 months. I have just received the approval in principle letter on my PR application for myself and spouse. The processing time is around 10 weeks.


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## simonsays

darkwalker said:


> Just sharing my experience on my PR application. I am Malaysian IT professional in mid 30s which have submitted my PR application on 2nd week September 2014. Worked in Singapore for the past 11 months. I have just received the approval in principle letter on my PR application for myself and spouse. The processing time is around 10 weeks.


Malaysian have it easy for PR!!! Always!!!!


----------



## WowBagger

Can someone please evaluate my chances for PR?

Expat in Singapore for almost 14 months. Earned $125k fixed + $55k bonus, recently switched to a new job at a hedge fund.
Married, wife works in IT at an MNC in Singapore as well, earns $75k per annum. No kids.

Any idea when's a good time to apply? Is it too soon for us?


----------



## simonsays

WowBagger said:


> Can someone please evaluate my chances for PR?
> 
> Expat in Singapore for almost 14 months. Earned $125k fixed + $55k bonus, recently switched to a new job at a hedge fund.
> Married, wife works in IT at an MNC in Singapore as well, earns $75k per annum. No kids.
> 
> Any idea when's a good time to apply? Is it too soon for us?


a good yard stick is 3 years of income tax return, i.e. 3 years of employment, as you can see it as a requirement for PR application

Though above is overlooked, you can still try .. with your pay .. maybe fast tracked ..


----------



## jk_534

So i am new to the forum and I joined here to get some help from the fellow members who can share their insight

I have been singapore for 5 years plus, did my masters, the worked for 4 months and then started phd here, now i am done with phd and found a job here in a government research agency

i wanted to know what are my chances of getting PR, i would be earning around 50-60K per year, i am 29 and umarried


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## beppi

jk_534: You should work (and pay taxes) for at least three years to have a reasonable chance.
Before that, only try if you have a wife and child (preferably boy, who becomes then liable for military service).


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## jk_534

hi beppi, have to mention that 3 PRC guys (who i think were married) and did phd from the same uni as me and got jobs in the same company which i work got PR in 1 years time. i am sure they never paid any taxes as they also only studied here before doing any work

I am only gonna stay in Singapore if i can get PR as I have a job in another country which pays twice as much


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## beppi

Of course: They are from the preferred race of the Singapore government.
You are not.
If you want to escape this apparent injustice, accept the job in the other country!
(But keep in mind that no place on earth is free from racial discrimination - and keeping quiet when you're profiting from it is morally as questionable as actively participating.)


----------



## simonsays

beppi said:


> Of course: They are from the preferred race of the Singapore government.
> You are not.
> If you want to escape this apparent injustice, accept the job in the other country!
> (But keep in mind that no place on earth is free from racial discrimination - and keeping quiet when you're profiting from it is morally as questionable as actively participating.)


pretty much, nobody knows, but PRCs/Chinese speaking are the preferred, as you say 

jk_534: your wording sounds pretty much what the locals don't like to hear .. Economic beneficiaries .. though that is the truth why most people come to Singapore

As beppi said, 3 years of Income tax boosts your success, unless your salary is into 5 figure on a monthly basis .. in which case, ICA "MAY" review your application a bit more favorably !!


----------



## jk_534

i am comparing the chances of getting a PR here vs a 'much' higher salary job in Europe with no chances of getting a PR till 5 years


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## beppi

Yes, that's exactly what we answered for. Ecureilx and me have the same opinion here.


----------



## simonsays

jk_534 said:


> i am comparing the chances of getting a PR here vs a 'much' higher salary job in Europe with no chances of getting a PR till 5 years


The way Singapore is moving there maybe a cooling off period of 5 years before applying PR. 

Unless you are exceptionally talented / scientist / most in demand ...


----------



## jk_534

if i stay in SG i will apply after 6 months of employment, i wont be playing the waiting game or the 3 years taxation before applying

I will be working as a scientist in a specialized job and the organization i will be working is the government agency for research in Singapore. I know several PRs who have gotten it working for the same company I am supposed to work for within a year (meaning they applied after 6 months of employment and some of them were also unmarried). So the only difference I have from them is race and if SG govt. is that picky about race?


----------



## beppi

YES, the Singapore government IS picky about race - that's what we have been telling you.
Good luck - you'll need lots of it! (And please post back here to prove us right or wrong!)


----------



## DrSami

Hi all,
I am new here. Just applied for PR last week for myself and my son. Profile as follows:

Self: 41 years old, Male, Indian, Divorced, Physician, Full Time Management/Research Job, Annual Salary 400K, Over 3 years in Singapore, Experience from US, 3 Ministry of Health (MOH) Licenses, Many publications, PEP Work Pass, Regional Head for Medical Research for Major S&P500 Biomedical Research company.
Son: 12 Years old, US Citizen, on DP, Studying in Singapore

I will be keenly waiting for any comments related to the profile. Also, if anybody would relate their experience on how 2015 timelines have been, it will be great!

Thanks!
Sami


----------



## BBCWatcher

OK, here are a few observations and opinions:

1. Since 2009 Singapore has significantly reduced PR approvals. The government is now approving fewer than 30,000 per year, and the government also appears to be holding the total population of PRs steady at just below 600,000. So the statistical odds of approval, in the aggregate, are not favorable.

2. If approved your son will have a national service obligation to fulfill, as I'm sure you and he are aware. If you had not included him in your application it would have been viewed as a serious negative. But you did, and that's helpful.

3. There's a great deal of evidence piling up that the government is heavily discriminating against Indians in its PR decisions. I don't think _anybody_ should discriminate on the basis of race or national origin, but that's the current, odious reality in Singapore. On the other hand, you have some influence over your professional accomplishments. Clearly you have an impressive professional background, and I hope the government fully appreciates that. You're working in an industry that the government views as quite important to Singapore's success, so that's helpful, too.

4. ICA strongly recommends applying after establishing a track record of tax payments and employment that they can consider, and you took their advice. That's good!

I'm cautiously optimistic for you, but who knows, really. Please let us know how it turns out if you get a chance.


----------



## DrSami

Thank you for your insights BBCWatcher. I will keep the forum posted regarding the outcome.


----------



## simonsays

BBCWatcher said:


> 3. There's a great deal of evidence piling up that the government is heavily discriminating against Indians in its PR decisions. I don't think _anybody_ should discriminate on the basis of race or national origin, but that's the current, odious reality in Singapore.


A minor correction, if you find racism legalised in Singapore, do stay away from Singapore.

After all, the Civil Servants are just doing their job, of maintaining Racial Ratios.

In fact, before 2007, a lot of Indians became PR/SC, till they started to upset the Racial Ratios- and anybody holding an Indian passport had a free run, 99% guaranteed PR, vs those of Malay and Chinese descent who were slowed down. And the saying went, that as long as you hold an Indian passport, as long as you are breathing and can write your name, you will get PR. And any Indian who marries a Singaporean, by default, was given PR or SC.

So now it is adjustment time. And the influx of Indians has supposedly upset the social fabric here, in this tiny land, and now the applicants are being looked at more carefully, in terms of background, language and more.

And, FYI, in case you don't read the local news, there was a furor when a majority of the newly minted PR and SC wanted to take Tamil out as a National Language and introduce another language - I understand that it didn't go down well with the born and bred True Blue Citizens. And some parents wrote letters demanding that Tamil be removed from Government schools. It worked fine I guess.

Which doesn't mean that only those of certain traits are welcome, it is just that the Government is extremely careful.

Singapore is where it is, by carefully managing the social structure, and see how it is in Malaysia or Indonesia - in Malaysia, the minorities have pretty much no rights, and in Indonesia, the occasional killing of non-mainstream races don't even hit the news. I may go on ...


----------



## BBCWatcher

simonsays said:


> A minor correction, if you find racism legalised in Singapore, do stay away from Singapore.


I don't think that's a correction, and I'd disagree anyway. One can certainly hold the view that racial and national origin discrimination are odious and live in a country where such discrimination exists. I do.


----------



## DrSami

simonsays said:


> Singapore is where it is, by carefully managing the social structure,......


Just wanted to mention that I actually have no issue with how Singapore policy makers keep the social fabric maintained and there really are no "wrongs" or "rights" in this matter. It is the way this country operates and those who wish to make this place their home need to absorb this reality and work around it. I do hope that there is a proper mechanism during the processing of the application whereby the "race factor" can be neutralized by the magnitude of value a candidate can bring to Singapore!


----------



## simonsays

BBCWatcher said:


> I don't think that's a correction, and I'd disagree anyway. One can certainly hold the view that racial and national origin discrimination are odious and live in a country where such discrimination exists. I do.


You are not living in Singapore I hope. 

This is Asia, and to quote Former PM Lee Kuan Yew, see what happened in the west, when they let everybody have their way - ghettos and what nots sprouted till there are places in the Advanced and Developed countries where outsiders fear to tread without worry 

Too bad, his policies worked and are still working, so if you don't like his policies, well, I would wonder what's your motive ?  

No offense, and sorry if that's off thread.

PS, it is NOT National Discrimination - Indian or China or Others are seen as "RACES" and not about Nationality - so an Indian who got his Australian Citizenship, for example, and comes here, is still seen as "INDIAN" - for ratio purposes.



DrSami said:


> Just wanted to mention that I actually have no issue with how Singapore policy makers keep the social fabric maintained and there really are no "wrongs" or "rights" in this matter. It is the way this country operates and those who wish to make this place their home need to absorb this reality and work around it. I do hope that there is a proper mechanism during the processing of the application whereby the "race factor" can be neutralized by the magnitude of value a candidate can bring to Singapore!


Well Singapore used to be transparent many years ago, where the officers used to advice what's missing or what need to be changed

Then the flood of immigrants started, and the voting population started to feel they are being pushed around by the new arrivals, and the voters sent a clear message in the election. And too many of the new arrivals who got PR or Citizenship obtained the same, not to stay here, but use it to move out- and when the bleeding becomes too obvious, the government had to do something.

Government woke up, and together with Singapore being the most wealthy country in this region, decided to stem the flow of arrivals, looking for permanent stay

And the Government also caught a lot of applicants customising the applications, to fit the preferred profile - some even buying degrees and such, to boost the chance, so now you see what that has lead to. Even those who fit the bill are being closely reviewed.

But fret not, it's not all things Racist in Singapore

I know a few folks who joined Government agencies in Research and scientist positions, who were invited to become PR within 6 months, and 2 years later, were asked to become Citizens.

And here's the news, for BBCWatcher too : the guys were 100% INDIAN. So there you go.

if you got talent and have what Singapore wants, you need not worry.


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## BBCWatcher

simonsays said:


> You are not living in Singapore I hope.


I live in Singapore rather happily, and I find discrimination on the basis of race or national origin to be odious.

Singapore is not perfect, but no country is.


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## simonsays

BBCWatcher said:


> I live in Singapore rather happily, and I find discrimination on the basis of race or national origin to be odious.


Interesting choice of words, but, well ..


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## DrSami

I was wondering if any statistical data on the total number of applicants per year versus successful applications is available. It will be interesting to see the overall odds involved.


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## simonsays

DrSami said:


> I was wondering if any statistical data on the total number of applicants per year versus successful applications is available. It will be interesting to see the overall odds involved.


Not available.

Again, applicants vs approvals vastly vary for some races, countries .... so it's not even something to look at, unless the report also gives a breakdown of applicants vs approvals in such details, details which will become cannon fodder for the opposition who is demanding the inflow be stopped or even reversed.


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## wesmant

Can't resist to comment. Anyway, be honest to yourself, which country is not racist? It's just bundled in different ways, some make it vulgar, some make it very smooth. In term if immigration process, i can't point out an evidence to clearly support the theory, but be honest to your self, if there are a few candidate of similar qualification and their case are borderline,and they are of different origins, are they standing equally interm of chances? Say one from East asia, one From South asia and another from eu/us and one more from south east asia.you do not need to post an answer here, just think and see the possibilities


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## BBCWatcher

The government publishes the number of PRs granted each year, but it's been a few years since I've seen either the government or the press report on the total number of PR applications submitted. Back in 2009-2010 it appears the number of applications was running at about 125,000 to 135,000 per year. A bit over 10% of those applications never left the launchpad, according to press reports at the time, perhaps because applicants left Singapore before ICA could get to their files.

ICA appears to assign sequential numbers to each PR application. If that's true, it's probably not too hard to figure out how many applications they receive, and the PR "agents" probably have a decent estimate. For what it's worth, here are my "best guesses": roughly 90,000 PR applications received per year and roughly a third approved. It's a higher approval rate (~50%) for family-based applications -- the government has more recently disclosed that percentage -- and thus obviously a lower approval rate for the PTS scheme. These are just rough guesses, though.


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## simonsays

wesmant said:


> . In term if immigration process, i can't point out an evidence to clearly support the theory, but be honest to your self, if there are a few candidate of similar qualification and their case are borderline,and they are of different origins, are they standing equally interm of chances?


In Singapore context ? As a learned member keeps saying - as a racist country, the need to preserve the racial ratio is extremely important here in Singapore. 

So those from the races that have a lesser representation get a leg up. And likewise those from the "preferred" race go up the lottery faster, vs those of not preferred.

So the answer is, nope.

Without going into details, a decade ago, a specific race from a specific country (a country of diverse races) in south Asia was getting too much airtime, due to their violent acts in Singapore. And even now back home they do commit violence often so much so, their own news channels don't bother much.

The Singapore Solution ? It became next to impossible to get PR for those of similar descent, and even getting work passes, even now, is tough.

Is that Wrong ? Well, may be for those who preach equality etc etc.

Is it correct, from Singapore's perspective ? Since too many want to come here, they are spoilt for choices and can refuse who they feel may import their bad traits to Singapore, than let them in and find out it's too late.


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## BBCWatcher

simonsays said:


> Without going into details, a decade ago, a specific race from a specific country (a country of diverse races) in south Asia was getting too much airtime, due to their violent acts in Singapore.


It couldn't have been _that_ much "airtime." I just took a look at Singapore's most infamous and most widely reported crimes in 2005, plus and minus 3 years. Literally none of those few press grabbing crimes involved anybody from "south Asia."


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## simonsays

BBCWatcher said:


> It couldn't have been that much "airtime." I just took a look at Singapore's most infamous and most widely reported crimes in 2005, plus and minus 3 years. Literally none of those few press grabbing crimes involved anybody from "south Asia."


Which means you were not reading enough news then or you were not here then.

And, not everything stays in the internet, in case you believe in the notion that if it's not in the internet it's not true.

For curiosity sake, can you tell me, Based on "internet research" .. how many maids have been murdered here in love affairs gone bad ?

Let me give you a clue : more than half of the news have been quietly erased after few days of it being in the local news headline. Including a girl who was pushed to death from the 5th floor of a building, news that never made it past a small column that the suspect has been sentenced to death, and that too appeared like 1 year later when the suspect was convicted and sentenced to death. Whereas the Facebook news groups had more information on the story.

Ps, the South Asian country I quoted as being least preferred has nothing to do with maids, but I am just trying to make a point about how much local news is controlled and how much of the unsavoury events get erased here.


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## BBCWatcher

So you're agreeing with me: "...not _that_ much airtime."


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## simonsays

BBCWatcher said:


> So you're agreeing with me: "...not that much airtime."


You are missing the point.

The specific group I mentioned got too much airtime when the incident happened, and then it was all silenced.

But the black mark remains till date.


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