# IPTV and illegal streaming



## jamabroad

The laws in Germany are strict regarding streaming and downloading. I have IPTV to watch all the English language programs which I pay for on subscription. As well as all the British channels there are 1000's of movies and box sets to view. Am I breaking the law with my subscription ?


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## Nononymous

It's been a few years so my knowledge may not be completely up to date.

Downloading is dangerous. Predatory law firms will obtain IP addresses, demand subscribers' identities from ISPs, and send out blackmail letters. This can get expensive. You should not mess about with torrents unless you know what you're doing - use a good VPN or even set up a virtual server offshore.

I don't think there's any problem with streaming, particularly if you're actually paying for a service. The legal basis here is that you are never in "possession" of a file when you're streaming it, so even if it's a bootleg that violates copyright, you're not breaking the law by watching it. (There was one case a few years back where some people were identified for streaming movies - or possibly porn - but the judge made a fundamental error when he forced the ISPs to release names.)

I would check in at the more active Germany forum (Google "toy" and "town" and "germany") for the current state of things, but I expect the advice is the same: streaming is okay, downloading requires expertise.


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## jamabroad

Thanks for your reply. I've tried to sign up to the forum you suggested to post my question there but it's impossible. The confirmation email simply never arrives and I've tried several email addresses.


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## Nononymous

jamabroad said:


> Thanks for your reply. I've tried to sign up to the forum you suggested to post my question there but it's impossible. The confirmation email simply never arrives and I've tried several email addresses.


If you search older threads you should find plenty of info. I can't imagine that streaming from a paid service is a problem.


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## Nononymous

I had another look round on Google, turns out that streaming, however defined, is "illegal" in the EU. Not sure what that actually means for a paid service from the UK. Main rule is, use a good VPN, always.


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## Bevdeforges

I'd be interested to know where you found that. It seems odd given that Netflix and other streaming services have been opening up here in recent years. Even Amazon is expanding its "Prime" thing to include the ability to stream films and videos (where they apparently couldn't do this up until the last several months or so).
Cheers,
Bev


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## Nononymous

I didn't have a ton of time so just did a bit of quick searching, found things on Toytown and Quora and elsewhere. 

I think there's no problem streaming from a paid service like Netflix or Amazon Prime when it's not "crossing borders" and isn't messing with distribution rights. 

However, I did see a comment from someone in Germany who'd been sent a lawyer letter threatening penalties because he'd watched a Dutch show for which he was a subscriber - but in the Netherlands. Beyond that I don't really know, and of course just because something is illegal does not mean the law can be easily enforced. Though in the case of torrenting, that is enforced, through predatory law firms acting on behalf of rights holders.

Sometimes the distinction between streaming and downloading isn't totally clear - apparently people thought they were streaming from a site called "Popcorn Time" but it was running a torrent client in the background.

Anyway, I didn't have time to research further, nor will I, but the best advice is to use a good, solid, paid VPN service to protect yourself. A good idea in general.


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## Nononymous

Here, for example:

https://frankfurt-expat.com/2017/11/20/streaming-movies-becomes-illegal-in-germany/

I still don't think you'd get in trouble for a paid service that is legal. And you should still definitely use a VPN anyway.


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## Bevdeforges

I suspect it's not so much a matter of streaming being illegal per se, but more the distribution rights. It's a real hodge podge here in Europe because the distribution rights are granted based on country and not on language. And what country you're paying for these rights is based on your residence, not where you actually are located when you watch the film (or download the material).

This became a big issue with e-books - in the early days, I used to buy e-books from the various UK sources, but ultimately the UK sources closed out all accounts where the "billing address" was outside the UK. There are a few large "international" e-book stores, but they have to limit what they sell based on the credit card address of the folks they sell to. (Yeah, there are ways around that.)

As I understand it, I can use my Netflix account while I'm traveling, but because I'm registered in France, I'll only get access to the videos that are available to the French audience, even if I'm streaming from a hotel room in the US.

I'm not a fan of the current international digital rights system - whether for books, films or other types of media. But that's another battle to fight.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Nononymous

I think it's specifically "illegal" streaming where the host does not have any rights to distribute material - so bootleg movies sites or the Russian site I use to watch live soccer matches that aren't broadcast on the regular sports channels here. In that case even the viewer is breaking the law, if they "know" that a stream is illegal. How this is enforced, I have no idea. With torrents it's pretty straightforward, they can track the IP of anyone sharing, but what if anything they can do for streaming is a mystery to me.


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## lenaolsen

Streaming is a risky business in Germany. Seriously, it does not matter if you are sharing content for which you don't have the author rights or if you simply watch a movie online from the "unlicensed" sources. It's just a matter of time, until you will get a letter with a huge fine for the violation of author rights. 

Nope, I don't suggest doing that!


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