# Rejoinder to sollie



## Guest (May 8, 2011)

Just so the original post won't go off topic, I have started an entirely new thread.

Sollie said:



> No disrespect intended, but I can tell you straight out that western woman do not like it when another woman wears a burqa because her husband or brothers are not able to look at her without thinking sexual thoughts. It's very primitive and not Western. If people want to be subjected to Sharia law, they should really stay in their own countries and try to improve things over there - not try to impose their religious beliefs on us.
> 
> Ok, :focus:


Kindly ask DIAC to remove the words 'freedom of religion' in the followiing text:

Australian society values respect for the freedom and dignity of the individual, freedom of religion, commitment to the rule of law, Parliamentary democracy, equality of men and women and a spirit of egalitarianism that embraces mutual respect, tolerance, fair play and compassion for those in need and pursuit of the public good

which can be found right here: Australian Values Statement - Provisional and Permanent

If this language gets removed, I give you my promise, I won't care to set my foot on Australian soil. If you can't get it removed, your words are the reaction of a lone individual seething from an internal turmoil. You should take appropriate classes or see an appropriate medical professional to deal with your internal emotions so they don't come spilling out in public. Good luck!!!!


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## sollie (Jan 4, 2011)

ausimmi said:


> Just so the original post won't go off topic, I have started an entirely new thread.
> 
> Sollie said:
> 
> ...




You should also be able to tolerate my point of view as well. It goes both ways, and I am entitled to "freedom of expression". I don't want to be subjected to burkas or sharia law. What's so hard to understand about that? I'm sorry if you took offense, but I will never subject myself to that. Sorry.


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## Guest (May 8, 2011)

sollie said:


> You should also be able to tolerate my point of view as well. It goes both ways, and I am entitled to "freedom of expression". I don't want to be subjected to burkas or sharia law. What's so hard to understand about that? I'm sorry if you took offense, but I will never subject myself to that. Sorry.


Well, the sense I got from your words is that you would not tolerate Muslim women wearing burkas. My concern is with the right of Muslim women to practice their religion that's all. I really don't want to impose anything on anyone. Did I get this wrong??


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

ausimmi said:


> Well, the sense I got from your words is that you would not tolerate Muslim women wearing burkas. My concern is with the right of Muslim women to practice their religion that's all. I really don't want to impose anything on anyone. Did I get this wrong??


Theres no point in arguing about it, altho I do find it a bit of confusing. Do women wear burkas so that men folk dont get sexual feelings about them (do men get that easily aroused????)?? Or because their religion dictates it and their god told them to????? I'm genuinely interested

Jo xxx


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## sollie (Jan 4, 2011)

ausimmi said:


> Well, the sense I got from your words is that you would not tolerate Muslim women wearing burkas. My concern is with the right of Muslim women to practice their religion that's all. I really don't want to impose anything on anyone. Did I get this wrong??


I am all for women's rights, so if she wants to wear a Burka - let her. But like I said, I don't want to subject myself to any man or their thoughts. Never have never will. I only answer to God.


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## sollie (Jan 4, 2011)

*Liberal senator Cory Bernardi calls for burqa ban*

LIBERAL senator Cory Bernardi has called for Australia to follow the lead of France and ban the burqa, describing it as "the most public symbol of fundamentalist Islam".

In a regular internet blog, the South Australian senator said there were supporters of fundamentalist Islam who wanted to impose sharia, or Islamic law, in Australia.

"This is a system where women are considered as second class citizens and homosexuals can be hanged," Senator Bernardi said.

"Why then are there defenders of what I consider the most public symbol of fundamentalist Islam in Australia - the face-covering veil?

"It beggars belief that these civil rights activists don't recognise that they are defending a political agenda that has the cessation of civil rights as its ultimate goal."

The comments come after France's lower house voted overwhelmingly to ban the wearing of face-covering veils in public.

Similar laws are pending in Belgium, Spain and some Italian municipalities.

"It is time we learned from the experience of the French, the Belgians, the Dutch, the Swiss and the British," Senator Bernardi said.

"We need to stop the expansion of fundamentalist Islam in Australia lest we lose the foundation, the essence, the very culture of our great nation."

Liberal senator Cory Bernardi calls for burqa ban | Herald Sun


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## Guest (May 8, 2011)

jojo said:


> Theres no point in arguing about it, altho I do find it a bit of confusing. Do women wear burkas so that men folk dont get sexual feelings about them (do men get that easily aroused????)?? Or because their religion dictates it and their god told them to????? I'm genuinely interested
> 
> Jo xxx


Well, the following is 24:31 in the Holy Quran:

And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things) and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.) and not to show off their adornments except only that which is apparent (like palms of hands or one eye or both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer dress like veil, gloves, head cover, apron, etc.), and to draw their veils all over (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms, etc.) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband’s fathers, their son’s, their husband’s sons, their brothers or their brother’s sons, or their sisters sons or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islam), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And beg Allah to forgive you all O believers, that you may be successful.

Now, you might find 1001 interpretations to the above, all practiced by Muslims, but the important thing is to let a woman decide for herself how she wants to follow this verse.

There is a very long and very interesting history of how this verse got revealed. If you are really and truly interested in knowing, it is far better to contact a true religious scholar who can guide you correctly. If you want, you can go here: Ask Fatwa online Darulifta Binoria |??? ??????? ????? ?????? and fill in the form with your question. Select 'HIJAB' in the combo box that says 'Subject'. The rest of the fields are self explanatory. Ask to your heart's content!!!! Just remember that their English is really not up to par so you will have to tolerate that. Hope this helps!!!!


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## Guest (May 8, 2011)

sollie said:


> *Liberal senator Cory Bernardi calls for burqa ban*
> 
> LIBERAL senator Cory Bernardi has called for Australia to follow the lead of France and ban the burqa, describing it as "the most public symbol of fundamentalist Islam".
> 
> ...


Well this is extremely confusing when you also talk about freedom of religion. Honestly, let me re-iterate. I really don't want to get stuck in the middle of people who seeth with rage every time they set their eyes upon me. I pray to Allah that this question will be settled once and for all and in very clear and certain terms. If Australia really believes in curbing the right of women to wear the burka - ostensibly in the name of protecting some ephemeral 'freedom of women' which seems like a self-contradictory paradox, then I really don't want to go to Australia. Period. Can you guide me to appropriate forums where I can make my voice heard? Maybe they will hurry up and decide on this and I will be spared a lot of trouble. Thank you in advance for all your help.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

ausimmi said:


> Well, the following is 24:31 in the Holy Quran:
> 
> And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things) and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.) and not to show off their adornments except only that which is apparent (like palms of hands or one eye or both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer dress like veil, gloves, head cover, apron, etc.), and to draw their veils all over (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms, etc.) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband’s fathers, their son’s, their husband’s sons, their brothers or their brother’s sons, or their sisters sons or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islam), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And beg Allah to forgive you all O believers, that you may be successful.
> 
> ...



Its certainly a bit of a paradox, on one hand women want the right to wear a burka to exercise their womens rights and on the other hand its seen as a symbol of submission and oppression of women . It also suggests that men arent capable of looking at women without getting aroused ?????? I suppose my western, agnostic and simplistic view would be that if a woman is ugly or cant be bothered to do her hair then she'll chose to wear one?????? A bit like me wearing trousers when I havent got time to shave my legs????? Sorry if that sounds flippant or disrespectful (I'm not, I'm just trying to understand), its difficult to comprehend when I've lived in a world wear burkas and such arent really practical or necessary.

The trouble with all religions is that they claim to be "the word of god/Allah" but are all the mans interpretation and translation of the words of god - afterall, the Christian God is supposed to be the same chap, but he says different things??? Yet us mere mortals all struggle to understand and follow what we're supposed to and then you add human/womens rights, modern living, lifestyle choices, cultural differences, attitudes................ its all so confusing dont you think

Jo xxx


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## Guest (May 8, 2011)

jojo said:


> Its certainly a bit of a paradox, on one hand women want the right to wear a burka to exercise their womens rights and on the other hand its seen as a symbol of submission and oppression of women . It also suggests that men arent capable of looking at women without getting aroused ?????? I suppose my western, agnostic and simplistic view would be that if a woman is ugly or cant be bothered to do her hair then she'll chose to wear one?????? A bit like me wearing trousers when I havent got time to shave my legs????? Sorry if that sounds flippant or disrespectful (I'm not, I'm just trying to understand), its difficult to comprehend when I've lived in a world wear burkas and such arent really practical or necessary.
> 
> The trouble with all religions is that they claim to be "the word of god/Allah" but are all the mans interpretation and translation of the words of god - afterall, the Christian God is supposed to be the same chap, but he says different things??? Yet us mere mortals all struggle to understand and follow what we're supposed to and then you add human/womens rights, modern living, lifestyle choices, cultural differences, attitudes................ its all so confusing dont you think
> 
> Jo xxx


Well I can answer each of your questions rather convincingly. Unfortunately, you are asking me questions whose answers would require giving statements about Christianity. Statements which Christians would have issues with. If you are OK with that, might I suggest we take this into private?? PM me your email address, and I willl try to explain in detail. But I recommend sending your questions to the web form I pointed above (they might take weeks in answering though). I am not a religious scholar and so I really prefer to avoid making religious statements, lest I mislead more than I guide. Its your choice. PM me, or send to the web form, but I encourage you to send to the web form. Best of luck!!!!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

ausimmi said:


> Well I can answer each of your questions rather convincingly. Unfortunately, you are asking me questions whose answers would require giving statements about Christianity. Statements which Christians would have issues with. If you are OK with that, might I suggest we take this into private?? PM me your email address, and I willl try to explain in detail. But I recommend sending your questions to the web form I pointed above (they might take weeks in answering though). I am not a religious scholar and so I really prefer to avoid making religious statements, lest I mislead more than I guide. Its your choice. PM me, or send to the web form, but I encourage you to send to the web form. Best of luck!!!!


Sadly, I'm too set in my ways and my beliefs, so I'd only be wasting your time. Thats not to say I dont respect your views, I'm actually very interested. I just find the whole religious thing needs a jolly good sort out - once and for all. No, it doesnt need fighting, squabbling or military intervention. It needs God/Allah to pop down and either tell us to stop acting like spoilt children or to make it crystal clear what he wants and to stop talking to the heads of religion, cos they're not very good at making it clear, so that there are no arguments!! As for burkahs......... I dunno, it does act as a barrier, just by the fact that you cant see who someone is clearly and by wearing one it can also cause segregation - which is something countries are trying to stop. That said, you could say the same for many fashion statements - But if Allah/God could show us beyond any doubt that he's one chap and tell us whether burkahs are necessary or not in todays society it would help!

Jo xxx


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## sollie (Jan 4, 2011)

ausimmi said:


> I really don't want to get stuck in the middle of people who seeth with rage every time they set their eyes upon me.


I don't think that people are seething with rage. There's no reason to be. But some (not all) people are obviously uncomfortable with the idea that women are second class citizens. Let me illustrate it this way so that you and others can better understand from a different perspective:

Suppose the UK wanted to set up a Christian church in Karachi - would you and others who live there feel comfortable? Better yet, lets make it if Israel wanted to set up a synagogue, how would the local residents feel? Some would probably "seethe with rage", and others probably would just feel uncomfortable because it's different to what they're used to.

You have to understand that you are planning on going to a Western country - where people have a different way of life. Although the government may want to allow for X law to be implemented, you cannot really shove it down the individual's throats, nor does it mean that the common people who live there agree with the government's policy. It's human nature - as simple as that.


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## rackspace (Dec 13, 2009)

sollie said:


> You have to understand that you are planning on going to a Western country - where people have a different way of life. Although the government may want to allow for X law to be implemented, you cannot really shove it down the individual's throats, nor does it mean that the common people who live there agree with the government's policy. It's human nature - as simple as that.


So locals should be more tolerant and able to accept other people for who they are?


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## Guest (May 8, 2011)

jojo said:


> Sadly, I'm too set in my ways and my beliefs, so I'd only be wasting your time. Thats not to say I dont respect your views, I'm actually very interested. I just find the whole religious thing needs a jolly good sort out - once and for all. No, it doesnt need fighting, squabbling or military intervention. It needs God/Allah to pop down and either tell us to stop acting like spoilt children or to make it crystal clear what he wants and to stop talking to the heads of religion, cos they're not very good at making it clear, so that there are no arguments!! As for burkahs......... I dunno, it does act as a barrier, just by the fact that you cant see who someone is clearly and by wearing one it can also cause segregation - which is something countries are trying to stop. That said, you could say the same for many fashion statements - But if Allah/God could show us beyond any doubt that he's one chap and tell us whether burkahs are necessary or not in todays society it would help!
> 
> Jo xxx


The whole point of this life is to believe in the unseen God. Believe in Islam when you see Muslims doing things contradictory to Islam, and in general being down trodden and having no might. Things have been different. Islam has been in power. The test in those times was to believe in Allah and Islam after seeing Islam's might. The test today is to believe in Allah and Islam while seeing Islam in a state of weakness. Its His decision how He wants to test people. Although the Quran is very clear: 'Allah tasketh not a soul beyond its scope. For it (is only) that which it hath earned, and against it (only) that which it hath deserved.' (Translation of 2:286 by Marmaduke Pickthall: Al-Qur'an, Surah Al-Baqarah) In easy terms it means Allah does not put any tests upon people which they don't have the strength to face. Everyone faces what they themselves have sown and they will be judged according to their own actions only. So you DO have the strength to grasp Islam. And since your life after death depends on it, you should actually take out the time and study - just my opinion, you have all right to ignore this.

Remember, if Allah gives clear indication of His existence, your converting to Islam won't be acceptable and it won't save you from Allah's wrath. Otherwise, consider - on th Day of Judgement, everyone will believe in God. But of course, belief on that day won't do any good. I pary to Allah to guide me and everyone else to the right path. Amen.


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## sollie (Jan 4, 2011)

rackspace said:


> So locals should be more tolerant and able to accept other people for who they are?


I'm very curious to know what your own answer is to that question. If I were to move to Karachi, start a church over there, wear my regular western clothes, go out at all hours of the night, and hang out with a few mates I made - both women *and* men, would you personally be tolerant of me?


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## Guest (May 8, 2011)

sollie said:


> I don't think that people are seething with rage. There's no reason to be. But some (not all) people are obviously uncomfortable with the idea that women are second class citizens. Let me illustrate it this way so that you and others can better understand from a different perspective:
> 
> Suppose the UK wanted to set up a Christian church in Karachi - would you and others who live there feel comfortable? Better yet, lets make it if Israel wanted to set up a synagogue, how would the local residents feel? Some would probably "seethe with rage", and others probably would just feel uncomfortable because it's different to what they're used to.
> 
> You have to understand that you are planning on going to a Western country - where people have a different way of life. Although the government may want to allow for X law to be implemented, you cannot really shove it down the individual's throats, nor does it mean that the common people who live there agree with the government's policy. It's human nature - as simple as that.


There are multiple churches and a synagogue in Karachi  The synagogue's location is kept secret because of the ever present terrorist threat so even I don't know where it is situated at. Do you know I met a man in Sydney who is a Jew and said his grandfather/grandmother (can't remember exactly) was from Karachi where they owned some buildings during the 1920s 

Do you also know that Pakistan is not a 'model' Islamic state nowadays? We are a mish mash of different ideologies. That said, no one in their sane mind - even religious extremists - believes in bombing churches and other places of worship. We feel offended by missionaries trying to convert Muslims. But in standing up for Muslim women's right, I am NOT trying to make a convert out of anyone!!!!

Laws are made for public safety, so everyone can live with the satisfaction that they won't be harassed. Trivializing laws leads to lawlessness. And it is what I am trying to escape in Pakistan. Take it from us, who are living in an extremely chaotic society. There is no limit to ignoring laws. You ignore one, and soon enough you will be ignoring all laws.

I agree there has to be some leeways. Trains in Sydney explicitly say no drinking, eating, trashing, putting feet on seat. But I never saw anyone making checks for these and actually saw people breaking them     I understand that Western culture is a fine balance between lawfulness and flaunting your personal freedom and that even law enforcement agencies look the other way on some things. I remember reading in the news about a state in America where police look the other way at prostitution. But laws about religious freedom should be respected. People should be educated, and clear cut definitions should be made. Because this is really one of the most near and dear things to people. And it would go very far in creating a sense of integration and encouraging peace and prosperity!!!


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## Guest (May 8, 2011)

sollie said:


> I'm very curious to know what your own answer is to that question. If I were to move to Karachi, start a church over there, wear my regular western clothes, go out at all hours of the night, and hang out with a few mates I made - both women *and* men, would you personally be tolerant of me?


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Pakistan today is very different today. We have *ahem* *ahem* 'everything' right here in the 'Land of the Pure'    I as a good Muslim am not very proud of it though, but there are people who feel very proud about it.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

ausimmi said:


> I really don't want to get stuck in the middle of people who seeth with rage every time they set their eyes upon me.


I dont think thats how people will react. It would probably be a similar reaction when a "westerner" without a burka were to live in a town/country where the majority wore them! Does acceptance allow intrergration tho?? Humans tend to flock to their own (be it nationality, colour, creed, religion, age......) and by wearing a burka, you will gravitate towards other burka wearers - nothing wrong in that, but it does then form a group and groups become a segregation - however, that happens with many different fractions of society!?

I'm still not sure tho whether burkas are a symbol religious freedom for the wearer or a symbol of male oppression, which "flies in the face" of womens rights and that is somewhat of a paradox that doesnt make sense to me! 

Jo xx


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## Guest (May 8, 2011)

jojo said:


> I dont think thats how people will react. It would probably be a similar reaction when a "westerner" without a burka were to live in a town/country where the majority wore them! Does acceptance allow intrergration tho?? Humans tend to flock to their own (be it nationality, colour, creed, religion, age......) and by wearing a burka, you will gravitate towards other burka wearers - nothing wrong in that, but it does then form a group and groups become a segregation - however, that happens with many different fractions of society!?
> 
> I'm still not sure tho whether burkas are a symbol religious freedom for the wearer or a symbol of male oppression, which "flies in the face" of womens rights and that is somewhat of a paradox that doesnt make sense to me!
> 
> Jo xx


Quote from a British friend of mine: "You will find there is a lot of 'ghettoization' here, with people sticking within their own little communities". First, I did point out to him that he was misusing 'ghettoization' since it has a rather repugnant undertone to it. But he was expressing the formation of physical 'localities' in Sydney. AND, he didn't seem to mind at all!!!!! 

When I first heard that Lekemba is such a place where white westerners wouldn't go, I was APALLED!!!!!! It is YOUR country, and the very thought of having places you would feel scared to go is DISGUSTING. Yet, many people just accept it and don't really give it another thought. It really does take all sorts to make up society see? However beautiful it might be, the ideal of universal integration may never be acheived.


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## Andrew James (Nov 6, 2010)

Hi,

Just a quick one, as a Westerner I had my eyes opened to Islam only after spending time in a conservative Middle Eastern country. Hearing locals explain things makes a difference.

And to put perhaps a different spin on it, I find some things that western girls wear in Melbourne to be indecent; there's something to be said about modesty. Not that I necessarily think burqas are 100% the way to go either of course!

But, to make the point again, I think you have to live in this part of the world to understand it a little more.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Andrew Landin said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just a quick one, as a Westerner I had my eyes opened to Islam only after spending time in a conservative Middle Eastern country. Hearing locals explain things makes a difference.
> 
> ...



Yes, I think I'm beginning to get my head round it (excuse the pun). It a bit like me/you/westerner going to a country where it was perfectly acceptable and decent to not wear clothes! How would we then feel if we were to live there and be told we have to walk around stark naked?? We'd think it was indecent and would like to have the right to wear clothes if we so wished and if our religion dictated it - and we'd feel walking around naked would incite men to have sexual thoughts (well perhaps not at my age. Clothes do me a favour LOL). But I guess its like that??????

Jo xxx


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

jojo said:


> Yes, I think I'm beginning to get my head round it (excuse the pun). It a bit like me/you/westerner going to a country where it was perfectly acceptable and decent to not wear clothes! How would we then feel if we were to live there and be told we have to walk around stark naked?? We'd think it was indecent and would like to have the right to wear clothes if we so wished and if our religion dictated it - and we'd feel walking around naked would incite men to have sexual thoughts (well perhaps not at my age. Clothes do me a favour LOL). But I guess its like that??????
> 
> Jo xxx


Jo that is so funny! :happy:


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## Southern-Aussie (May 8, 2011)

Freedom to express or practice ones religion is entirely different than actually imposing or forcing said religion onto others. 

Though I do think the burkas are quite oppressive on women and the history behind them does seem as though it is meant to keep them as second class citizens...


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

Southern-Aussie said:


> Freedom to express or practice ones religion is entirely different than actually imposing or forcing said religion onto others.
> 
> Though I do think the burkas are quite oppressive on women and the history behind them does seem as though it is meant to keep them as second class citizens...


I am only posting this link to seek understanding OK? Can you explain to me why burkas are oppressive but this isn't: Pet girl kicked off bus for wearing leash | Reuters ??????


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

ausimmi said:


> I am only posting this link to seek understanding OK? Can you explain to me why burkas are oppressive but this isn't: Pet girl kicked off bus for wearing leash | Reuters ??????


 - you know some people are into what's called, "bondage" - it's a fetish.  I suspect that's what those people in that article was up to :lol:

Ausimmi, what have you been searching for and reading!


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

stormgal said:


> - you know some people are into what's called, "bondage" - it's a fetish.  I suspect that's what those people in that article was up to :lol:
> 
> Ausimmi, what have you been searching for and reading!


It was on the NEWS a few years back stormgal. That's how I remembered this. That link points to reuters.com it does!!!! The question is, indulging in a fetish is not oppressive but following religion is???


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

ausimmi said:


> It was on the NEWS a few years back stormgal. That's how I remembered this. That link points to reuters.com it does!!!! The question is, indulging in a fetish is not oppressive but following religion is???


it's still funny as heck 

Not sure what you mean about the fetish thing and how it relates to religion. I know you're not really talking to me, but me personally - I'm not religious, but if it makes you feel better, I do believe in God and the fact that we will all be held accountable for whatever we do here on earth. (It's a good thing as far too many people are getting away with murder...) 

But I don't follow any man, woman, dress code, nor do I impose myself on anyone. I also don't care to involve myself in anyone's business or lifestyles. Far too many people want to have control with religion and like they say here, "homey don't play dat". To me, following God is more about having a personal relationship with Him. (and yes, I consider myself to be a Christian) 

Nite nite, now


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

What I want to know is, how come western people don't find a 'human pet' girl to be a sign of denegration to women, don't view it as oppressive and male dominance, yet see the burkah as reprehensible and oppressive??? Can anyone answer this???


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm determined not to be seen as taking sides on this cos I'm not (I am not taking a religious stand in any way). But you could say that the fact western/christian/whatever women have to cover their ....... Breasts and butt up when walking around the street and living day to day is also a sign of male oppression. Yes I know, some women tend to show more occasionally, but for now (times change), its seen as a bit "provocative and unnecessary by some. And to look "respectable" in todays society, thats how western women dress. I guess its a similar thing with the Burkah????? A lot of muslim women simply feel more comfortable

The only issue I think I'd have with a burkah, is the practical applications, such as restrictions in movement and visibility - Oh and the symbol of the religion, which isnt my problem, but sadly, as things in the world right now, our religions arent sitting comfortably together

Jo xxx


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

jojo said:


> [Snip]... Oh and the symbol of the religion, which isnt my problem, but sadly, as things in the world right now, our religions arent sitting comfortably together
> 
> Jo xxx


Oh but freedom of religion is exactly what I LOVE about Australia. I really think the government is trying to create a truly multi-cultural society. Do you know, a few years back, the Australian government used to run advertisements in the local newspaper here encouraging students to apply for Australian universities, showing a boy wearing a skull cap, and a girl wearing a scarf??? They could have chosen any other representation, but I think this was very thoughtful. I really do think the Australian government wants to create tolerance. So if I am wrong, I really want to be corrected.


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## rackspace (Dec 13, 2009)

See this video. If you dont agree, its your own choice, but atleast help you with real concept of veil in islam.


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

rackspace said:


> See this video. If you dont agree, its your own choice, but atleast help you with real concept of veil in islam.
> YouTube - Is Face Veil Obligatory? Answered by Dr. Zakir Naik


LOL!!! This is one of those 1001 interpretations which I was talking about. Now if you follow that web link I provided, they will not only tell you the face must be covered, if you ask them they will also tell you that Mr. Zakir Naik is no authority on Islamic knowledge. Which is why I said in the first place, that you should allow every individual Muslim woman to act as she pleases. Simple.


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## rackspace (Dec 13, 2009)

ausimmi said:


> LOL!!!


really? an L O L in this talk?



ausimmi said:


> you should allow every individual Muslim woman to act as she pleases. Simple.


nah! any man or women can *not *do as he/she pleases. every one has to believe and act accordingly. especially when quran explicit tell to cover body. now the interpertation only differs whether face should be covered or not. so that can be decided by every muslim women. no problem.


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

rackspace said:


> really? an L O L in this talk?


Well, the alternative was this ->  which is NOT the sort of person I am really.




rackspace said:


> nah! any man or women can *not *do as he/she pleases. every one has to believe and act accordingly. especially when quran explicit tell to cover body. now the interpertation only differs whether face should be covered or not. so that can be decided by every muslim women. no problem.


You won't find any takers of this point of view in the west. They all stand AGAINST



rackspace said:


> any man or women can *not *do as he/she pleases


The whole debate about burkahs is NOT imposing a certain interpretation but allowing freedom of choice. Which as you say, is not a problem.


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## rackspace (Dec 13, 2009)

ausimmi said:


> You won't find any takers of this point of view in the west. They all stand AGAINST



what do you mean ? have you even read what i have written?
i was talking about what muslim women is suppose to do .. not what every women in west is suppose to do.


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

rackspace said:


> what do you mean ? have you even read what i have written?
> i was talking about what muslim women is suppose to do .. not what every women in west is suppose to do.


What I mean to say is that your proselytizing of what "muslim women is supposed to do" would be considered an offensive act. This forum is NOT for discussing what is and what is not allowed in Islam...


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## rackspace (Dec 13, 2009)

ausimmi said:


> What I mean to say is that your proselytizing of what "muslim women is supposed to do" would be considered an offensive act. This forum is NOT for discussing what is and what is not allowed in Islam...


why? believers of a particular religion are suppose to do certain things. workers are suppose to do certain jobs. students are suppose to study. and so on .. 



ausimmi said:


> This forum is NOT for discussing what is and what is not allowed in Islam...


Agreed, you should never have started a new thread for it.


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

rackspace said:


> why? believers of a particular religion are suppose to do certain things. workers are suppose to do certain jobs. students are suppose to study. and so on ..
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, you should never have started a new thread for it.


This discussion is getting off topic. This thread is all about women's freedom of choice in Australia and the west in general. Try starting a thread on 'how believers of a particular religion are suppose to do certain things' and see where that gets you. Please contact the moderators if you think I should not have started this thread. :focus:


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## rackspace (Dec 13, 2009)

ausimmi said:


> This discussion is getting off topic. This thread is all about women's freedom of choice in Australia and the west in general. Try starting a thread on 'how believers of a particular religion are suppose to do certain things' and see where that gets you. Please contact the moderators if you think I should not have started this thread. :focus:


*LOL*. Why dont you start it like this thread


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## dungargon (Feb 6, 2011)

ausimmi said:


> This discussion is getting off topic. This thread is all about women's freedom of choice in Australia and the west in general. Try starting a thread on 'how believers of a particular religion are suppose to do certain things' and see where that gets you. Please contact the moderators if you think I should not have started this thread. :focus:


Hi Ausimmi

I don't know about Australia (yet), but I am a born and bred Londoner so can tell you my experience of the West.

The government and "society as a whole" will absolutely recognise anyone's right to religious freedom, but a significant minority of the population are essentially afraid of anything that is different.

Burquas and Hijabs are frightening to these people not just because they are so different in appearance to the status quo, but also because they signify that an individual's attire has been dictated by something as "trivial" as their religious convictions, rather than the usual drivers such as the latest copy of a magazine or current high street trends.

However, talking about "women's freedom of choice" in this context can be problematic. I have spoken directly to women who feel that covering up is imposed on them by their community, as well as those that feel liberated by doing it. This kind of peer pressure, which exists in all communities, is what enables the odd whacko policitian to make a call to "ban the burqua" - but while these calls are widely reported in the media they quickly fade into obscurity. What is truly required is a balancing act that allows individuals to follow the paths they choose - not an easy feat and probably not achieved anywhere in the world as yet.

Assuming Australia is similar to the UK; if the women in your family are covered then sadly they can expect some ill treatment and exclusion from opportunities as a result. But there will still be many other opportunities that are open to them and the government and the law of the land will recognise their right to exercise their religious freedom in the manner of their choosing. Unfortunately there are relatively few places in the world where this is the case and I am sure you will be able to realise your dream of a better quality of life there.

Best
Dungargon


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

dungargon said:


> Hi Ausimmi
> 
> I don't know about Australia (yet), but I am a born and bred Londoner so can tell you my experience of the West.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the support Dungargon!!! I am currently unmarried so its not a problem which any woman close to me would face


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

dungargon said:


> Hi Ausimmi
> 
> I don't know about Australia (yet), but I am a born and bred Londoner so can tell you my experience of the West.
> 
> ...


Same here in the US. And yes, you're right that Burquas and Hijabs are frightening. I can't explain why - but they are.


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

stormgal said:


> Same here in the US. And yes, you're right that Burquas and Hijabs are frightening. I can't explain why - but they are.


This can give ricks1088 some ideas for your Halloween present


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

ausimmi said:


> This can give ricks1088 some ideas for your Halloween present


Boy you really have something for ricks1088 - careful there - her husband lives in Pakistan and can come get you! :tongue1:


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

stormgal said:


> Boy you really have something for ricks1088 - careful there - her husband lives in Pakistan and can come get you! :tongue1:


Stormgal, you know very well I have been trying hard to find a partner for you  And frankly speaking, I couldn't help noticing that ricks1088 has got something for YOU.

Anyways, if all the burka wearing women made a collection on Friday and bought free pampers for you, would that make you happier?? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

ausimmi said:


> Stormgal, you know very well I have been trying hard to find a partner for you  And frankly speaking, I couldn't help noticing that ricks1088 has got something for YOU.
> 
> Anyways, if all the burka wearing women made a collection on Friday and bought free pampers for you, would that make you happier?? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:



:brick:


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

stormgal said:


> :brick:


I would love to reply your brick with the idiomatic 'flower' - just to show I am such a nice person  Unfortunately there aren't any smilies for flowers or roses so this will have to do ->    with the understanding that I am returning goodness for evil


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## ricks1088 (Mar 10, 2011)

Ausimmi U notice several things don't u? 

Btw stormgal, he is my bf not husband and he lives in Australia.


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

ricks1088 said:


> Ausimmi U notice several things don't u?
> 
> Btw stormgal, he is my bf not husband and he lives in Australia.


oops sorry, my bad. Ausimmi is just being a pain...


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

ricks1088 said:


> Ausimmi U notice several things don't u?
> 
> Btw stormgal, he is my bf not husband and he lives in Australia.


I beg to remain Madam, your most humble servant. :eyebrows:


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

stormgal said:


> oops sorry, my bad. Ausimmi is just being a pain...


Listen, on a more serious note, I only want to be comical to the point where I am not crossing boundaries. If I am, just say so and I will stop. See??


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

ausimmi said:


> Listen, on a more serious note, I only want to be comical to the point where I am not crossing boundaries. If I am, just say so and I will stop. See??


No worries  - it's not your fault. See if Diac would update the website then we'd all have something normal to talk about!


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

stormgal said:


> No worries  - it's not your fault. See if Diac would update the website then we'd all have something normal to talk about!


Hmmmmmm, exactly which part of the website are you talking about????


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## ricks1088 (Mar 10, 2011)

may be we need new SOL or updates on new point system


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

ricks1088 said:


> may be we need new SOL or updates on new point system


Agreed :nod: stormgal, if I asked you a teensy weensy little favor, do you promise to grant it??? :eyebrows:


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

ricks1088 said:


> may be we need new SOL or updates on new point system


Exactly :clap2:

I suspect we'll be waiting until around May 20th - same time as last year.


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

ausimmi said:


> Agreed :nod: stormgal, if I asked you a teensy weensy little favor, do you promise to grant it??? :eyebrows:


Depends...:noidea:


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

stormgal said:


> Depends...:noidea:


Oh it's a really trivial thing. Honest. But you must promise to grant it first and not tell ricks1088 about it until after you have granted my wish.


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

ausimmi said:


> Oh it's a really trivial thing. Honest. But you must promise to grant it first and not tell ricks1088 about it until after you have granted my wish.


:lol: that's too funny - but i can't do that.... wouldn 't want to put myself in a bad position. 

lol and whoever reads here will wonder what this has to do with burkas. 
:focus:


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

*YAWWWWWWWWWWWWWN* I am feeling sleepy. PM me if you finally decide. I will check tomorrow morning. Nitie Nite!!!!!!!!!


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

stormgal said:


> :lol: that's too funny - but i can't do that.... wouldn 't want to put myself in a bad position.
> 
> lol and whoever reads here will wonder what this has to do with burkas.
> :focus:


But I promise you won't be in any bad position.


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

ausimmi said:


> *YAWWWWWWWWWWWWWN* I am feeling sleepy. PM me if you finally decide. I will check tomorrow morning. Nitie Nite!!!!!!!!!


nite nite, sweet dreams, and don't let the bed bugs bite


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

stormgal said:


> nite nite, sweet dreams, and don't let the bed bugs bite


Thankfully people like you don't sleep on my bed so I have no fear of bed bugs


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## Guest (May 9, 2011)

stormgal said:


> [Snip]... and whoever reads here will wonder what this has to do with burkas.
> :focus:


But I thought the question has been decided because the burka girls are going to make a Friday collection to buy free pampers for you all


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

ausimmi said:


> Thankfully people like you don't sleep on my bed so I have no fear of bed bugs


you *are* the bedbug! :tongue1:


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

stormgal said:


> Same here in the US. And yes, you're right that Burquas and Hijabs are frightening. I can't explain why - but they are.



Cos we in the west arent used to seeing them. Also I remember being quite frightened by skin heads, bikers and punk rockers when I was a kid, with coloured, spikey hair, safety pin earrings in their noses and menacing attitudes - but you eventually get used to them - in fact by the time I was 16, I had green hair and wore black makeup and a bin liner lol!!!!

Jo xxx


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

jojo said:


> Cos we in the west arent used to seeing them. Also I remember being quite frightened by skin heads, bikers and punk rockers when I was a kid, with coloured, spikey hair, safety pin earrings in their noses and menacing attitudes - but you eventually get used to them - in fact by the time I was 16, I had green hair and wore black makeup and a bin liner lol!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


lol yah - I grew up in nyc during the crack epidemic, so you can already imagine the scary things I've seen! Just add what you've said - only some of the people were also also walking around like zombies


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## Guest (May 10, 2011)

:happy: :happy: :happy: :happy: :happy: :happy:


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## anj1976 (Apr 24, 2008)

rackspace, lets not get personal here, 

i belong to India and there were a few things that I had not seen ever as i am from a metro. I got agitated when someone told me how she has to be with her mother in law and her father in law, that she was not allowed to sit at the same level as them, she had to cover her head etc etc. my fore fathers are from rawalpindi, we are punjabi/sindhi family and we have always lived in a joint family, we had seen a lot of restrictions in our family but nothing like a daughter in law has to cover her head in front of elders, i used to call it bull c**p whenever someone told me about it, until i went to interiors of a state, u can call it a village and saw it myself. half the time i had my mouth wide open as i was shocked, i used to roam around in a kurta and trouser and everyone used to look at me as if i had nothing on, why, cos i was married and did not sport sindoor or did not wear bangles.

then my husband, who does not believe in all this either told me to relax a bit and not get agitated over their customs, u will come, fight and go but they will continue living the way they are right now. because this is life for them.

i do not have anything against anyones religious sentiments but think about it, if a westerner comes to India or for that matter Pakistan and roams around in a bikini with shorts what would you say? please dress appropriate, else you wont be accepted, so the lady who is used to wearing spaghetties with shorts in 44 degree C will be forced to wear full sleeve shirt that reaches her knees with a trouser or jeans, why cant we adjust a little and try to blend in.

no one is challenging anyones emotions here or inclination towards Islam or Hinduism or Christianity but have you thought why they say, WHILE IN ROME, DO AS THE ROMANS DO.. just so that you do not stand out and looking at current state (yes i am talking about terrorism), it wont hurt if you try to blend in and not stand out.

no offense to anyone if i hurt anyones sentiments, i did not mean to.


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## anj1976 (Apr 24, 2008)

i try an d stay as far as i can form controversies but somehow something keeps attracting me .. i tried staying away form this thread for long.. DAMN!!


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## Dhawal (Oct 29, 2010)

anj1976 said:


> i try an d stay as far as i can form controversies but somehow something keeps attracting me .. i tried staying away form this thread for long.. DAMN!!


Hi anjali,
I can understand what you saying....but better to stay away from controversies...coz with the previous post......a new set of discussions will begin....better to avoid that...


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## Guest (May 10, 2011)

anj1976 said:


> i try an d stay as far as i can form controversies but somehow something keeps attracting me .. i tried staying away form this thread for long.. DAMN!!


Hop right in and join Anj. The party was just winding down and you gave it a new life    

Blending in never means leaving near to heart customs. I worked as a consultant at a MAJOR OZ bank and I saw a Jewish guy wearing a skull cap. Nobody would even DREAM of pointing him out or saying you don't fit in. They would be labled anti-semitic in the blank of an eye. He could be hiding anything behind that toupee (skull cap) of his  Similarly, thankfully enough, nobody minds Sikhs wearing a turban. So my point is that burka wearing Muslim women should be given acceptance and space. That's all. Plain and simple.


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## Guest (May 10, 2011)

Dhawal said:


> Hi anjali,
> I can understand what you saying....but better to stay away from controversies...coz with the previous post......a new set of discussions will begin....better to avoid that...


You are curbing Anj's right to freedom of expression. GOD!!!! Talk about male dominance


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## Dhawal (Oct 29, 2010)

ausimmi said:


> You are curbing Anj's right to freedom of expression. GOD!!!! Talk about male dominance


 ... Am not dominating her......just advising her to skirt controversies.... i think she understood me...


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## Guest (May 10, 2011)

Dhawal said:


> ... Am not dominating her......just advising her to skirt controversies.... i think she understood me...


Anj. Please DO send me your pic showing you wearing your new skirt of 'controversies' :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I am sure you will look HOT


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## anj1976 (Apr 24, 2008)

ausimmi, i dont know how much you are aware of this but in the recent past turbans have been an issue as well.. just like the burkas have been. 

I dont read much about all these issues, just the headline in the newspaper is enough to agitate me, i hate it when people start fighting over their religion. i try and be out of it as i give breathing space to people adn expect the same form others


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## Guest (May 10, 2011)

anj1976 said:


> ausimmi, i dont know how much you are aware of this but in the recent past turbans have been an issue as well.. just like the burkas have been.
> 
> I dont read much about all these issues, just the headline in the newspaper is enough to agitate me, i hate it when people start fighting over their religion. i try and be out of it as i give breathing space to people adn expect the same form others


Believe you me, jewish skull caps won't EVER be any issue - at least not in the west    Which is reason enough for at least me to stand up for the right of Muslim women to wear the hijab/niqab/burka as they please.


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## armandra (Nov 27, 2009)

anj1976 said:


> ..
> ..
> but have you thought why they say, WHILE IN ROME, DO AS THE ROMANS DO.. ..
> ..
> ..


Oh my, I remember it as:

"When in Rome, DO the Romans!" 

and people would be jumping in to label me an opportunist.......  


armandra!


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## Guest (May 10, 2011)

armandra said:


> oh my, i remember it as:
> 
> "when in rome, do the romans!"
> 
> ...


lol!!!


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## anj1976 (Apr 24, 2008)

Armandra . 

you wont give up correcting me, will u?

when you have a 6 month old playing with everything other than her toys (including laptop charger, remotes, keys, mobile phone, pens, newspaper etc) you end up writing two things together and then you miss out on things that you planned to write and then forgot and then you feel, let it be, lemme just post this one .. and then you are told you write something so stupid that you feel ashamed of .. but no i dont care if i wrote when as while or for that matter when as how <<ahem ahem>>..


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## Guest (May 10, 2011)

anj1976 said:


> Armandra .
> 
> you wont give up correcting me, will u?
> 
> when you have a 6 month old playing with everything other than her toys (including laptop charger, remotes, keys, mobile phone, pens, newspaper etc) you end up writing two things together and then you miss out on things that you planned to write and then forgot and then you feel, let it be, lemme just post this one .. and then you are told you write something so stupid that you feel ashamed of .. but no i dont care if i wrote when as while or for that matter when as how <<ahem ahem>>..


Errr you didn't take Armandra seriously did you??? :lol:


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## anj1976 (Apr 24, 2008)

i think i should stop writing in the foruma s people expect me to beperfect when i know i am not.. who wants to be perfect? i would hate being perfect.

as i tell my dad, even god was not perfect, how can we humans be perfect.

And Ausimmi, these things happen for a reason and we better not question, as they say, one bitten twice shy, (armandra correct me if i wrote this wrong again..).. it is trust that once shaken takes forever to be rebuilt. talking in forums wont make a difference, you and I can go on expressing, shouting, screaming but the ones who decide what has to be done where will not hear or budge form their thinking

this is the reason i try and stay out of controversies, i was like you, everyone doing something wrong was my business but then i realised i am wasting my time, no one cares about my thinking, if i think it is right then i can apply it to myself but not to others. people dont like others changing them even when they know they are wrong, this is call king size ego that most humans are born with


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## anj1976 (Apr 24, 2008)

no i did not , took it with a pinch of salt


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## armandra (Nov 27, 2009)

anj1976 said:


> Armandra .
> 
> you wont give up correcting me, will u?
> 
> when you have a 6 month old playing with everything other than her toys (including laptop charger, remotes, keys, mobile phone, pens, newspaper etc) you end up writing two things together and then you miss out on things that you planned to write and then forgot and then you feel, let it be, lemme just post this one .. and then you are told you write something so stupid that you feel ashamed of .. but no i dont care if i wrote when as while or for that matter when as how <<ahem ahem>>..


Hmmmm, come on Anj, 

I was just trying to add a li'l comic timing in here. You were right the first time with this:

"When in Rome, do as Romans do". 

The one I said was taken from the movie "Salaam Namaste" delivered by Javed Jaffrey:

"When in Rome, DO the Romans" (means when in Rome, screw the Romans...) 

Have a good laugh maties!! 


armandra!


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## Guest (May 10, 2011)

anj1976 said:


> i think i should stop writing in the foruma s people expect me to beperfect when i know i am not.. who wants to be perfect? i would hate being perfect.
> 
> as i tell my dad, even god was not perfect, how can we humans be perfect.
> 
> ...


Actually the main reason why I started this thread was to understand if Australia really and truly grants religious freedom, and the understanding I have gained from all this discussion is that YES IT DOES!!!! Not only that, I can see a lot of Westerners are not really averse to Burkahs when things are explained to them. Which is why I feel this whole thing has not been an exercise in futility.


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## anj1976 (Apr 24, 2008)

i need to go see a doc, why did i not read it the way you wrote it.. i thought maybe i wrote it wrong.. 
i am known for my typos, my THE is alwasy TEH, am is always MA, AND is always ADN.. i thought i wrote this one wrong as well


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## anj1976 (Apr 24, 2008)

see, just because we come from a high risk zone does not make us one of those right, just that when one looses trust it takes time to build it again and make them realise everyone from that side of the continent does not have intentions to bomb your country. i am sorry but this is the hard fact adn this applies to me as ewll. Pakistanies and Indians do look similar


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