# Strike in spain



## john42 (Jun 7, 2011)

Does anyone have any info on the Strike on Thursday . Will air trafic still be coming in to Alicante .??


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

john42 said:


> Does anyone have any info on the Strike on Thursday . Will air trafic still be coming in to Alicante .??


this is the most recent info I can find - googletranslate does a pretty good job if you don't read Spanish

Cómo te afectan los servicios mínimos de la huelga general del 29M - Huelga - Trabajo - Practicopedia.com


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

the FCO has just issued this a couple of hours ago....

Strikes in Spain to affect travel



> Strikes in Spain to affect travel
> 
> 27 March 2012
> A General Strike has been called for 29 March by the two largest trades unions in Spain. Services at Spanish airports may be significantly disrupted.
> ...


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Iberia and its subsidiary have cancelled 424 flights on Thursday and RENFE have cancelled 600 trains. Lots of bus services won't be running either.

Iberia y Air Nostrum cancelan 424 vuelos por la huelga general del 29-M | Economía | EL PAÍS


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

A separate strike, nothing to do with 29M - Iberia pilots are planning to strike every Monday and Friday between April and July.
Los pilotos de Iberia harán huelga todos los lunes y viernes de abril a julio | Economía | EL PAÍS

In English:
http://elpais.com/elpais/2012/03/27/inenglish/1332853078_258718.html


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Oh well, that should help create jobs and give a boost to the struggling economy...

We need to get this deficit down and then ensure that never again are we taken for a ride by snake-oil salespeople with their sleek, empty promises. Strikes won't help. Elected Governments shouldn't be coerced by action from one relatively small sector of society.

It took a war to bring in a half-way decent welfare state in the UK. This economic crisis is low-intensity war with different weapons: pay freezes, public sector job cuts, cuts to essential public services....

There is sadly no alternative to deficit and debt reduction policies but if when all is resolved we allow any Government to take us back to the status quo ante we will be out of our tiny minds.

Just as the privations of war made my mother's generation determined to see a sea change in the lives of ordinary people so we should ensure that after the sadly necessary austerity is over and balance restored we too see a radical change in our philosophy not only of the economics of government but of the whole ethos of our society.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Some more information on areas where agreement has been reached re provision of local services:
CC OO y UGT se desvinculan de los servicios mínimos de ocho comunidades | Política | EL PAÍS


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

Lots of cancellations posted on Easyjet and Ryanair now....


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

brocher said:


> Lots of cancellations posted on Easyjet and Ryanair now....


My flight isn't cancelled, for the moment at least!


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> My flight isn't cancelled, for the moment at least!


Everything crossed for you! At least you're going in the right direction and won't face any onward travel problems, I see they are seriously limiting access to the airports for taxis, buses, etc.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

brocher said:


> Everything crossed for you! At least you're going in the right direction and won't face any onward travel problems, I see they are seriously limiting access to the airports for taxis, buses, etc.


Yes, but I've got a secret weapon called Mr. Pesky Wesky.

My flight may experience some problems, or even be cancelled in the end, but I did notice on other air company websites that there were very few cancelled flights to the UK. In fact those that were cancelled, were all to London airports I think


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

Does he mind being referred to as Pesky?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

brocher said:


> Does he mind being referred to as Pesky?


Uhhmmm, he doesn't know.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

All supermarkets, shops and petrol stations open in this area. So far very little closed it seems, apart from my Mother's hairdresser who closed because she feared she would be fined if she opened. Not sure who she thinks would fine her but methinks it was simply an excuse to have a day off. She's British, btw.


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## siobhanwf (Mar 20, 2009)

TAP have cancelled most of their flights into Spain today 

_Portugals TAP cancels most Spanish flights for Thursday due general strike. TAP/Air Portugal has canceled more than half its scheduled flights into and out of Spain on Thursday due to a planned general strike in its Iberian neighbor, a TAP official said. _


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

thrax said:


> All supermarkets, shops and petrol stations open in this area. So far very little closed it seems, apart from my Mother's hairdresser who closed because she feared she would be fined if she opened. Not sure who she thinks would fine her but methinks it was simply an excuse to have a day off. She's British, btw.


the schools are open here but not with full staff & the kids could stay off with parental permission

don't know about shops - I'm in bed with flu


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> the schools are open here but not with full staff & the kids could stay off with parental permission
> 
> don't know about shops - I'm in bed with flu


Look after yourself xabiachica!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> the schools are open here but not with full staff & the kids could stay off with parental permission
> 
> don't know about shops - I'm in bed with flu


Keep warm ....it's cold and windy here today.

Not much movig here...but then our village is always quiet, dozy even, except for a brief interlude between around six and seven in the evening when people emerge into the streets and cafes..then all is quiet again, even in summer...


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

*PP gets social over General Strike*

From the Guardian Live feed on the general strike.

11.09am: Our Madrid correspondent Giles Tremlett reports that Spanish police seem upset about a suggestion by the governing People's party (PP) of prime minister Mariano Rajoy that social networks should be used to denounce illegal picketing or violence in today's general strike.

He writes:



> Esperanza Aguirre, the PP head of the regional government of Madrid, had called on people to "put up on social networks any photos or videos" of "any act of violence or of coercion by pickets". She has repeated the idea on her own Twitter feed.
> 
> But Spain's National Police force has just put out its own tweet, asking people not to use Twitter for official complaints.
> 
> "Please, for warnings, incidents, queries or requests for help about #huelga (strike) do not use Twitter. Dial 091. The coordination is better there," it says.


I would say that she has been watching what happened last summer in the UK and trying to turn it to her advantage.
So I guess, if nothing else, we could say that Esperanza Aguirre is trying to connect via more modern means and use it to the PPs advantage.
Pity she was nearly a year too late and decided to act with a heavy hand rather than actually socialize. But that's The Countess of Murillo for you


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Interesting - when DRY did this with photos and videos of police violence against protesters in Barcelona and Valencia recently, they were accused of faking them.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Apart from showing discontent with what seems to me to be a broadly sensible and much-needed attempt to reform the restrictive labour laws, what precisely will this strike achieve, especially as it seems to be less than general...??


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Apart from showing discontent with what seems to me to be a broadly sensible and much-needed attempt to reform the restrictive labour laws, what precisely will this strike achieve, especially as it seems to be less than general...??


Well, I suppose you could say that it proves Rajoy was correct when he told members of his party that the publication of his labour reforms "is going to cost me a general strike." 

But I do think we see this strike in terms of our views and interests.
You, and other small businesses struggling to survive, will hope that it will be less than general, because you agree with the labour reforms. Therefore you will be looking at post strike statistics to find evidence that the strike was a failure.

A family who will be badly affected by the labour reforms and who have already been hit by the Spanish governments' (past and present) reaction to the downturn in the economy, will look at that same set of statistics to find evidence that the strike demonstrated that the Spanish people will not just stand by while bankers and politicians ruin their lives.

I would guess that both groups will find something to boost their opinions.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Apart from showing discontent with what seems to me to be a broadly sensible and much-needed attempt to reform the restrictive labour laws, what precisely will this strike achieve, especially as it seems to be less than general...??


If you were involved in the trade union movement today, would you be standing by and doing nothing while legislation undid at a stroke things that took you and your colleagues many years to achieve? 

It's a token gesture of course, a way (the only way) of expressing their concerns. Just one day, with minimum services guaranteed and emergency services covered.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

As a trades unionist, still active in policy formation, I am proud to belong to a union which has had one strike in thirty years but which has achieved its objectives of improving pay and conditions for our members by reasoned negotiation.

What exactly is a) to be achieved by this strike and b) what is objectionable about the legislation?
The fact that you say members fought for years to get this is irrelevant. I do not support strikes simply because they occur. Sometimes they are unnecessary, counter-productive and achieve nothing but inconvenience to other working people. 

Spanish labour laws are restrictive and may lead to the closure of small and medium sized businesses. Sometimes you have to lose two workers to save the jobs of twenty. Anyone who has owned or run a business knows this.

Of course that doesn't mean employers have the right to fire willy-nilly. There are as I understand it sufficient safeguards to protect workers from arbitrary and unfair dismissal.

But what would you suggest a company with a low order book should do? In Germany, most companies agreed with unions that they would keep workers on with shorter hours and wage cuts until orders picked up again. That is what we did in the UK.

And if you say: there are other ways to boost productivity and keep staff: the last time someone said that and I asked for suggestions as to how, no reply was forthcoming.

Only people who have never been responsible for meeting a payroll the recipients of which depend on it to pay their mortgages and feed their families could throw out such an empty suggestion....

I have been a union member since the day I started work. I chose a union that achieved real improvements for its members by speaking softly and carrying a big stick. There are teachers' unions who ballot members for strike action, get a majority on a minority turnout and then find that come strike day, most of their members are in the classroom working.


NASUWT doesn't operate like that. Employers know we can deliver. 

When I joined the union, I did not sign away my powers of reasoned judgment nor did I take up a 'My union right or wrong' stance.#

Some strikes are just, necessary and achieve results. Others simply are none of those things.
One of the most effective pieces of industrial action we carried out was two years ago in Jersey when the States Government or whatever it's called threatened major changes - bad ones - to terms and conditions of service. We organised a massive march and demo in pouring rain....on a Saturday. No education was disrupted. The threat was withdrawn.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> But what would you suggest a company with a low order book should do?


The same as we did with our little two-person business: look for new markets - we started exporting - Spain, Holland, Russia, Finland. I have been trying to buy some extra deep fitted sheets this week. We previously bought them from Scotts of Stow but they have stopped supplying outside the UK as have Maplin (electronics). The sheets are coming now from M&S. Companies that embrace the fact that they are in the EU and can export to other member counries without tariffs or other restrictions stand to survive any recession, those that are too parochial are less likely to. We get stuff from Amazon, Lakeland, M&S to name just a few - I should point out that this is stuff we can't get in Spain.


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

The strike didn't look so peaceful on the BBC news - BBC News - Spanish workers hold general strike over labour reforms


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

It seems anyone unlucky enough to have been flying today may have been badly hit with flight cancellations and extremely limited access to airports for any vehicle to drop off/ collect passengers.

BA Travel Info is still showing - "Currently our flights are operating normally but please check the status of your flight before leaving for the airport." A quick check of actual flight status from any London Airport to Malaga showed 3 out of 4 flights cancelled, for Barcelona 8 out of 10 cancelled, and Madrid 11 of 15 cancelled.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> The same as we did with our little two-person business: look for new markets - we started exporting - Spain, Holland, Russia, Finland. I have been trying to buy some extra deep fitted sheets this week. We previously bought them from Scotts of Stow but they have stopped supplying outside the UK as have Maplin (electronics). The sheets are coming now from M&S. Companies that embrace the fact that they are in the EU and can export to other member counries without tariffs or other restrictions stand to survive any recession, those that are too parochial are less likely to. We get stuff from Amazon, Lakeland, M&S to name just a few - I should point out that this is stuff we can't get in Spain.


Very difficult to do that if you are in the service industry, Baldy. We had nothing to export!

Our core business was keeping huge HGVs on the road. No export possibility there, I'm afraid and yes, we had links which gave us custom from foreign vehicles which had troubles that needed fixing in our region. We were also the police contact for any major incident involving HGVs in our area. We worked a twenty-four hour, seven days a week, three hundred and sixty five days a year operation and employed highly qualified technicians with HGV licences who received the top rate of pay with bonuses.

We also had another business which dealt exclusively with domestic vehicles...MOTs, bodywork, 'pimp my ride', the usual car and motorbike repairs. We advertised but our work, not cheap but not main dealer prices, was its own best attraction for new business. We were the largest independent enterprise of this kind for miles....we operated from extensive premises - yards and huge, hangar-like workshops - with the very latest hi-tech equipment. All our workers were sent for regular training to update their knowledge and we never had fewer than two apprentices from local schools who we sent to college every week.

You employed two people...we employed around twenty-five. Of course as in any business your wage bill will be your biggest expense. Our HGV business was reliant on large orders from account customers - we're talking six-figure contracts here.

We lost a major contract through no fault of our own simply because the company in question relocated their hub further north to cut costs. This happened again when we lost a similar contract of almost equal value when the company, a waste disposal business, went bankrupt, owing us £ tens of thousands.

These kinds of setbacks in our kind of trade simply can't be compensated for as simply as you suggest, Baldy. The motor trade is highly competitive and most companies operate on the slimmest of profit margins. One single loss of a major contract can put you in a situation where simply to be able to pay your suppliers and other overheads you have to shed staff. 
As I said....lose two workers -who you may be able to reemploy when business picks up - or lose twenty-five.

It's easy for people whose wages are paid by a private company or as in my case from the public purse -aka taxation from persons and private businesses - to make suggestions and criticisms from a comfortable chair. Sandra, who took her responsibilities to her workers -who would have gone through fire for her - and to the small businesses that depended on us very seriously and who worked seven days a week, twelve hours a day sometimes, just had enough one day and gave twenty-five percent of the company to our General Manager (on £40k plus a year plus bonus) and his son, the Workshop Manager. I think she would have had some kind of breakdown if she had continued. We left the UK and the business in the hands of the Managers, drawing less than £5k a year from it.

It took them two years to run it into the ground. Everyone lost their job, we lost a lot of money which in my view we'd never had so we shouldn't miss it. Compared to Sandra's working life, mine was a cakewalk.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> Well, I suppose you could say that it proves Rajoy was correct when he told members of his party that the publication of his labour reforms "is going to cost me a general strike."
> 
> But I do think we see this strike in terms of our views and interests.
> You, and other small businesses struggling to survive, will hope that it will be less than general, because you agree with the labour reforms. Therefore you will be looking at post strike statistics to find evidence that the strike was a failure.
> ...


Just read this again...

the strike will not have succeeded if it does not change government policy -which it won't and shouldn't. What it will do is harm the economy and inconvenience working people who do not wish to strike as well of course as those who for whatever reason do not work. 

That piece about Spanish families hit by the reforms not standing by etc. doesn't mean much in real terms. Some of those families may have voted PP. The fact is that apart from futile gestures the Spanish people -all of them - have no real alternative but to see this through and then and only then, when the economy is stable, ensure this never happens again....something that in a democracy is done via the ballot box and through legislation.

So sadly, yes, that is what will happen. They will 'stand by'. There will be no revolution. (Thankfully). Just as people everywhere will stand by, you and me included. I have seen the value of my retirement income eroded by over one-third because of this crisis. I can't go on strike...all I can do is urge all the politicians and union leaders and officials I know to speak out loudly and clearly about the changes that must come. That's one reason I'm off to the UK..to add my one voice and pester my General Secretary to abandon 'neutrality' and speak out clearly against the false god of freedom of choice and the failed free market policies.

And if, after all the economic hardship and social disintegration caused in the past twenty or so years, people vote back the same old gang whether red or blue...they will deserve what they get.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

According to The Guardian...


> Spain's first general strike for 18 months has been well-supported, as citizens protest against the government's labour reforms and austerity plans.


Continued here.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Just read this again...
> 
> the strike will not have succeeded if it does not change government policy -which it won't and shouldn't. What it will do is harm the economy and inconvenience working people who do not wish to strike as well of course as those who for whatever reason do not work.
> 
> ...


You appear to have a different view of Spanish people than I do. 

This is a nation who fought a bloody civil war not so long ago and suffered the consequences of effectively losing that war for many years. The oppression many people suffered in the Franco years is not forgotten, even by the younger generation.
Speak to them, if you do not believe me.

The turn to the PP in the recent General election was not a choice by the electorate to welcome the PP with open arms, it was more a cry for help out of the current and ongoing crisis. It is not everyone by any means who sees the current situation in Spain as part of a global crisis caused by free market values. Many voters are simply concerned with what is happening to them in their neck of the woods and expect their elected Government to be able to deal with this. And the fact that the PP deliberately made vague suggestions in their manifesto, coupled with (I would think) a reasoning that surely the PP would be fair across the board this time around, led to a choice now, I would guess, regretted by many, including the choice made by some not to vote at all.

You say that the Spanish people have no choice but to see this through and take whatever reforms are thrown at them. This strike showed that many of them are unwilling to do so.
And I wonder whether this political system of democracy, with decisions made through legislation and choices made via the ballot box, will be able to withstand the hardships to come.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> You appear to have a different view of Spanish people than I do.
> 
> This is a nation who fought a bloody civil war not so long ago and suffered the consequences of effectively losing that war for many years. The oppression many people suffered in the Franco years is not forgotten, even by the younger generation.
> Speak to them, if you do not believe me.
> ...


I am well aware of all you say and was discussing the legacy of the Civil War only two days ago with a Spanish friend.

The fact that many Spanish people went on strike doesn't mean that they have in any way changed or influenced the course of the current dire economic situation. What has changed since yesterday? What real effect has the strike had other than to deprive people of a day's wages and to dent the economy? Do you think that for one moment the Government will - or should - change its course?

Be very careful when talking about whether our democracy will withstand the hardships to come. If our admittedly imperfect democracy, conceivably the best on offer - have you a credible alternative? - is to fracture under the strains of this crisis, the outcome will not be a better society. It will be more bloodshed, civil disorder and ultimately the forces of 'law and order' will crack down in a repressive way that will stifle all dissent. Spanish people know this, as you say, from real and recent experience. It's not a talking point for them.

This strike was about the changes to labour laws. If anyone sees it as an attempt to overthrow a legitimately elected government they are mistaken. Those laws need reform. How would you deal withy the very real situation I described in my reply to Baldy's suggestion that 'in order to save jobs, companies should export'?
Sounds oh so simple, doesn't it...until you think deeply.

There is a real world out there and it is inhabited by people who have to make tough decisions based on real circumstances, not on some theory of what ought to be. Dividing the world into virtuous trades unionists -and trades unionists are a minority interest group in any country - and wicked capitalists is totally unproductive and doesn't reflect life as it is. You are assuming some sort of revolutionary consciousness amongst Spanish people which just isn't there. Demos never represent majority opinion.

The election of George Galloway in Bradford West is tragic. Had anyone else won I would have been over the moon to see Labour given a bloody nose. Its inadequate response to the crisis merits it. But to see the election of a self-seeking cynical opportunist who won by courting the most reactionary elements in the Muslim community adds substance to my fear that European states are moving to the fascist right and hard left. All down to the failure of mainstream political parties to address the real causes of the crisis.

My friend's ninety-odd year-old mother was a child of the Franco era. Born in a small Andalucian village, she never went to school. She was sent to work in Morocco as servant to a wealthy family and cried every night because she couldn't write to her family and the 'lady of the house' made promises to write which she never kept. 

So yes, I do know people who liverd during the Franco era, some from PSOE membership, others as friends. Their recollections and perceptions are not monolithic.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> According to The Guardian...
> 
> Continued here.


According toThe Guardian.....

'Well supported'........did the country grind to a halt? No.
Will the Government change course? No.


So the effect of the strike was...?????/


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> I am well aware of all you say and was discussing the legacy of the Civil War only two days ago with a Spanish friend.
> 
> The fact that many Spanish people went on strike doesn't mean that they have in any way changed or influenced the course of the current dire economic situation. What has changed since yesterday? What real effect has the strike had other than to deprive people of a day's wages and to dent the economy? Do you think that for one moment the Government will - or should - change its course?


Either my oncoming migraine means I am not reading this clearly, or you are deliberately misreading my post.

The fact that many spanish people went on strike, and wanted to show the government they are a united force, says that they are deeply unhappy with the current situation and the reforms and austerity measures to come. Plain and simple.
Im sure there are those who thought there would be a change in Government measures overnight, but most were thinking in terms of long term plans and using their right to strike because in most cases it is the only means they have to express their feelings.
You will come back and say that the ballot box is the only place for this, but if that is the case, why allow workers to strike at all? 



mrypg9 said:


> Be very careful when talking about whether our democracy will withstand the hardships to come. If our admittedly imperfect democracy, conceivably the best on offer - have you a credible alternative? - is to fracture under the strains of this crisis, the outcome will not be a better society. It will be more bloodshed, civil disorder and ultimately the forces of 'law and order' will crack down in a repressive way that will stifle all dissent. Spanish people know this, as you say, from real and recent experience. It's not a talking point for them.


Again, you are deliberately misreading me. 
Your comment suggests that I personally want to see an overthrow of democracy, when you know this was not what I was suggesting.
Furthermore, why should every poster on this subject have to offer a credible alternative before making a comment? You say yourself that you cannot see one. But this does not mean that people will be prepared to sit back and take what is now on offer to them.

As you say, Spanish people know that a fracture in political law could well bring bloodshed and incredible hardships.
But on the other hand, they also have the knowledge that there is something wrong with the political system as it stands. Do you think they are happy that their democratic freedoms, fought for and cherished, now appear to be being used to allow measures to take place that will lead the majority of Spanish people into great hardship? 
This is not all black and white, there are many shades of grey here.



mrypg9 said:


> This strike was about the changes to labour laws. If anyone sees it as an attempt to overthrow a legitimately elected government they are mistaken. Those laws need reform. How would you deal withy the very real situation I described in my reply to Baldy's suggestion that 'in order to save jobs, companies should export'?
> Sounds oh so simple, doesn't it...until you think deeply.


Yes, this strike was about changes in the labour law, but many of those who took part in the processions were campaigning against austerity measures in general.
That always happens when you have a major political event.
And no (apart from the fact my headache is killing me at the moment!), I do not wish to answer your question to Baldy.
You are not the only one who comments here.
We do not have to answer your questions if we choose not to do so.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> According toThe Guardian.....


That was such a predictable comment.


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## Lucie123 (Dec 7, 2011)

Intresting reading the comments on here and the dole thread about the changes and what you can get. i guess thats why the uk media dont like to go into detail about everything as even with some of the measures that have been brought in its still far better than the uk interms of redundancy pay


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Lucie123 said:


> Intresting reading the comments on here and the dole thread about the changes and what you can get. i guess thats why the uk media dont like to go into detail about everything as even with some of the measures that have been brought in its still far better than the uk interms of redundancy pay


redundancy pay maybe - for the employee at least - but many many small business simply crashed because they couldn't afford to make staff redundant, whereas if payments had been more 'affordable' they could maybe have kept going & kept at least some employees working

unemployment & other benefits are _*much*_ more generous in the UK though, you have to admit


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Very difficult to do that if you are in the service industry, Baldy. We had nothing to export!
> 
> You employed two people...we employed around twenty-five.


But it is *more* difficult when there are only two of you (us - employers/employees) to spread on the ground very very thinly - there are armed overseas buying trips often up into the mountain villages dodging guerillas who would love to kidnap you for ransom, airport runs to collect goods after sorting out Customs formalities, unpack and check all items, claims against foreign country's Customs for damages to goods (looking for cocaine pressed and shaped into pottery goods {not ours}) while in their hands, repack and re-export (raise export paperwork, deal with VAT and Customs, take to shippers) not to mention finding markets in the first place and making sales pitches, foreign exchanges both ways and with only two of us.... With 25 it would have been a doddle. OK so you were in a service industry, a service that is not limited to just a few customers locally, there are lots all over the place. OK, so you aren't the only ones offering that service, you need to offer something that the others don't - your USP!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I am well aware of all you say and was discussing the legacy of the Civil War only two days ago with a Spanish friend.
> 
> The fact that many Spanish people went on strike doesn't mean that they have in any way changed or influenced the course of the current dire economic situation. What has changed since yesterday? What real effect has the strike had other than to deprive people of a day's wages and to dent the economy? Do you think that for one moment the Government will - or should - change its course?
> 
> ...


 I`ve just had a quick look through here and will not pretend to have read all, it`s just that this comment caught my eye.
If you talk to my MIL she will tell you how Franco`s troops gave her mother back their family home that she and her 7 children were kicked out of by the rebel troops previously. 
Everybody has their own story to tell about the civil war and it`s not all anti Franco.


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## Lucie123 (Dec 7, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> redundancy pay maybe - for the employee at least - but many many small business simply crashed because they couldn't afford to make staff redundant, whereas if payments had been more 'affordable' they could maybe have kept going & kept at least some employees working
> 
> unemployment & other benefits are _*much*_ more generous in the UK though, you have to admit


Good point re small companies not being able to afford.do the goverment subsidise at all? re dole you get £67 a week in the uk.obviously thats across the board regardless. but going by what was posted above based off a 10k wage you get far more in spain. putting aside the 8 month limit


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> But it is *more* difficult when there are only two of you (us - employers/employees) to spread on the ground very very thinly - there are armed overseas buying trips often up into the mountain villages dodging guerillas who would love to kidnap you for ransom, airport runs to collect goods after sorting out Customs formalities, unpack and check all items, claims against foreign country's Customs for damages to goods (looking for cocaine pressed and shaped into pottery goods {not ours}) while in their hands, repack and re-export (raise export paperwork, deal with VAT and Customs, take to shippers) not to mention finding markets in the first place and making sales pitches, foreign exchanges both ways and with only two of us.... With 25 it would have been a doddle. OK so you were in a service industry, a service that is not limited to just a few customers locally, there are lots all over the place.* OK, so you aren't the only ones offering that service, you need to offer something that the others don't - your USP!*





Baldy...we had many USPs for our area. The 'pimp my ride' bodyshop, motorbike MOTs , hire cars, courtesy cars.... We weren't numptioes and knew we had to be constantly looking for new ways to increase turnover and profitability. You have to face up to the fact that sometimes every avenue is exhausted. The economy and the state of other businesses and the amount people have to spend on their cars is an important factor. We were the leader in our field in introducing new technology and equipment. We looked for replacement orders. Sometimes shedding staff is the only option to keep your business afloat.

Sorry...having two employees is not harder than having twenty-five or more. There is the responsibility factor. Knowing people's livelihoods depend on you is a huge responsibility. There is all the bureaucracy involved in having employees.
Your particular line of business involved certain dangers but you knew that when you set up. We knew what problems we would face.

There are so many factors affecting businesses which are beyond your control, it's quite frightening.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> Either my oncoming migraine means I am not reading this clearly, or you are deliberately misreading my post.
> 
> The fact that many spanish people went on strike, and wanted to show the government they are a united force, says that they are deeply unhappy with the current situation and the reforms and austerity measures to come. Plain and simple.
> Im sure there are those who thought there would be a change in Government measures overnight, but most were thinking in terms of long term plans and using their right to strike because in most cases it is the only means they have to express their feelings.
> ...


It's your headache.  Of course I'm not suggesting you want to overthrow democracy....others might, though, from left and right. Neither am I suggesting that there should be no right to strike.
What I am saying is this: a strike is a weapon that should be used sparingly and should have an outcome...otherwise what is the point of losing a day's pay and further damaging the already fragile economy? If you wish to show your legitimate anger at a policy, then why not a mass demonstration at weekends or in the evening - as did occur yesterday and which was effective.
I've said before there is no alternative to the current programme. But there should be preparation for ensuring this never happens again.
I also think that if a government has been elected then it has to take measures it deems necessary. Before PP won the election the left was telling everryone there would be tougher austerity measures. People knew what they were voting for. Surely the 'precious democratic freedom' is simply this: to elect a government which runs the country without being coerced by minorities. If they do unpopular things they will be booted out next time round.
The strike was not supported by all workers or even all trades unionists. It didn't bring the country to a halt. There are other ways of expressing grievances . That's my point.
Yes, you are right, things are never black and white. As PW pointed out, many people in Spain supported Franco and many still do (to my surprise). I met an old lady the other day who moaned about how dreadful everything was, how much better in Franco' day..'There was respect'....I also saw a piece in our local paper which shocked me even more, headlined 'Yo soy franquista'......

And no, you don't have to answer my questions....but when people raise points and you ask for alternatives it's not only interesting but sometimes instructive to hear what they are. I'm open-minded about most things. 
As for The Guardian....I read that from the age of fifteen...when it cost 3d. It was a truly independent, informative paper of record in those days. I stopped reading it as in the sense of buying it about six years ago when it seemed to become the mouthpiece for the trendy metropolitan left. Articles on 'child poverty' don't fit well with fashion pages advertising trendy gear at four-figure prices imo.
I tend to read The Independent now.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Lucie123 said:


> Good point re small companies not being able to afford.do the goverment subsidise at all? re dole you get £67 a week in the uk.obviously thats across the board regardless. but going by what was posted above based off a 10k wage *you get far more in spain*. putting aside the 8 month limit


Not really, because in the UK you can get housing aid, child benefit and various other allowances over and above the jobseeker´s allowance.

Also in Spain if you've never had a job at all (like 50% of under-25s) you get ****** all, unless you go on endless training courses to qualify you for jobs that don´t exist.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Everybody has their own story to tell about the civil war and it`s not all anti Franco.


I agree. But I think it depends very much on the area you live in.
I remember when we first arrived here and I, innocently, asked a group of neighbours if there was anything Franco did that they considered good.
No kidding, it was like I had mentioned the anti-christ!

But since that time, I have been able to have more measured conversations about this with some of the younger people in the area. But there is a general hatred of the Franco era here from people of all ages, and a majority dislike of anything remotely right wing. Which is probably why the elections here maintained support for the left.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> It's your headache.


It definitely was! And its still hovering in the background.
A combination of working on the internet for 12 hours plus for the last few days, while 'chilling out' by getting into political debates. 
And then there's the fact that I am due to board a plane in the next few hours - and that always raises my stress levels through the roof.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on the strike issue, although I will say that, even though this strike was about the new labour reforms, the fact that there have been demonstrations throughout most of the country in recent months, brought out people who probably wouldn't usually have been involved.

This General Strike has received much more media attention in the West than the previous one, because there is so much at stake here, not only for Spain. 
Now we can disagree about what that attention means for Spain as a whole, but I think that many demonstrators were very aware of the implications, but still felt it necessary to voice their opinions.
And to me, that says a lot about the current mood here, and the need to find alternatives quickly.
(But as my head is still a little fried, I wont be making any suggestions at this time )

As to the Guardian...
I have been a reader for years, not so much because it was _the_ paper to read, but simply because it was always the one with the best education job offers!
I don't always agree with the editorials, or some of the columnists, but I'm simply used to its format.

Now wish me a stress-less flight on Saturday. Please


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## Lucie123 (Dec 7, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> Not really, because in the UK you can get housing aid, child benefit and various other allowances over and above the jobseeker´s allowance.
> 
> Also in Spain if you've never had a job at all (like 50% of under-25s) you get ****** all, unless you go on endless training courses to qualify you for jobs that don´t exist.


extra benefits are ok if you are entitled to child benifit etc.(someone mentioned above a spanish payment you get if you have kids etc) but for example if you live with your parents have no kids and have less than x amount of savings you get the basis £67.when i said far more in spain i ment the basic dole amount going by the example the op gave

nothing wrong in doing training courses to get your dole money. there maybe no work now but when there is the training and qualifactions will help. better than having young people living off the dole in the uk who have no intrest in working regardless


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm trying so hard to not vent my anger at the SS system in the UK which is breeding (rapidly cos they get more money and its ok) a second/third generation of people who dont even understand the work ethic..........

Spains system creates a harder working, more self reliant and responsible population IMO

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Lucie123 said:


> extra benefits are ok if you are entitled to child benifit etc.(someone mentioned above a spanish payment you get if you have kids etc) but for example if you live with your parents have no kids and have less than x amount of savings you get the basis £67.
> 
> nothing wrong in doing training courses to get your dole money. there maybe no work now but when there is the training and qualifactions will help. better than having young people living off the dole in the uk who have no intrest in working regardless


here in Spain a huge number of under 25s - even those working ( I know a 30-something *lawyer* who has only recently been able to afford to move out) live with their parents

those who are unemployed, and have never been employed - 50% of under 25s as Alcalaina stated - will get _*nothing*_ - whether they live with parents or not


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> It definitely was! And its still hovering in the background.
> A combination of working on the internet for 12 hours plus for the last few days, while 'chilling out' by getting into political debates.
> And then there's the fact that I am due to board a plane in the next few hours - and that always raises my stress levels through the roof.
> 
> ...



Of course.... I still have my rosary beads: They haven't been very useful in the past, though.
As for strikes...I may well support my Union if its arguments for strike action against our employers -the Government - over pension reforms are finally convincing. I think we have a good case but I'm not sure what real effect a strike, rather than a mass rally as in Jersey might have, apart from alienating parents whose pension expectations are probably worse than ours...or non-existent.
I would however join any peaceful protest with PSOE about this wasted opportunity and possible further damage to a fragile economy of this budget.

I'm off to Conference on Thursday, all should be well by then.

Enjoy your break....I look forward to resuming our debates.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Solwriter said:


> I agree. But I think it depends very much on the area you live in.
> I remember when we first arrived here and I, innocently, asked a group of neighbours if there was anything Franco did that they considered good.
> No kidding, it was like I had mentioned the anti-christ!
> 
> But since that time, I have been able to have more measured conversations about this with some of the younger people in the area. But there is a general hatred of the Franco era here from people of all ages, and a majority dislike of anything remotely right wing. Which is probably why the elections here maintained support for the left.


 It depends on a lot of things I'd say - age, experience, area, class, political leanings, sexual orientation, fashion...
In general I'd say there's a lot more Franco hating than loving, but I think it's important to not lose sight of the fact that there are 2 sides to every story.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> It depends on a lot of things I'd say - age, experience, area, class, political leanings, sexual orientation, fashion...
> In general I'd say there's a lot more Franco hating than loving, but I think it's important to not lose sight of the fact that there are 2 sides to every story.


I think the one of the bad things that happened during Francos reign was that many families were divided by views and sides. Loved ones became enemies and there were many atrocities which may or may not have been down to Franco himself, but his over zealous supporters and their opponents. That era seems a big black cloud that the Spanish wish to forget and not discuss. But as with all issues in history, they colour the future 

Jo xxx


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## Lucie123 (Dec 7, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> here in Spain a huge number of under 25s - even those working ( I know a 30-something *lawyer* who has only recently been able to afford to move out) live with their parents
> 
> those who are unemployed, and have never been employed - 50% of under 25s as Alcalaina stated - will get _*nothing*_ - whether they live with parents or not


.
the other poster says you get something if you go on training courses etc i dont know the facts i just know what you guys post . then I comment on that. but basic dole money if you have worked is far more in spain. im a casual worker in the uk i have no rights either so it seems spain is just catching up when others commented about seasonal workers can be laid off with no notice or redundancy.


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## Lucie123 (Dec 7, 2011)

Yeah its the same with people being stuck at home in the uk. think the average age for buying your first house is the mid 30's unless you get yourself pregnant then you and your partner if you have one will get a fully paid for council house!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lucie123 said:


> Yeah its the same with people being stuck at home in the uk. think the average age for buying your first house is the mid 30's unless you get yourself pregnant then you and your partner if you have one will get a fully paid for council house!


Sorry, Lucie, you are way off the mark there. I was Director of a large Housing Association admittedly a few years ago and I keep up with housing trends - my ex is an independent social housing consultant and feeds me facts and figures.

When a couple apply to go on the local authority waiting list then yes, they will get some priority but no way will they automatically go to the top of the waiting list. If they are proven homeless the likelihood is that they will be placed in a ghastly B&B where the taxpayer will pay exorbitant rents to a private landlord.

The fact is that there is a huge shortage of council housing. The Thatcher Government sold off the best stock, few social housing starts were made under Thatcher/Major and even fewer under Blair.

And before you say that social housing goes to newly-arrived immigrants....unless they are asylum seekers that is untrue.  Most non -Brits in council properties are renting privately from people who bought their council houses at knockdown prices (thus effectively taking from the taxpayer who subsidised these properties) .

I agree with you that there is a benefit culture and that it often pays more not to work than to work -although one might legitimately ask where the jobs are - but don't fall into the Daily Mail trap of picking up on isolated instances and then applying them generally.

Some of the Daily Heil stories turn out on closer investigation to be distorted or even totally untrue and deliberately misleading. A couple of years ago I researched three stories headlined in the Heil and taken up by the unspeakable Melanie Phillips: none was as depicted by them but when I asked for correction and retraction I received no reply from the Heil and a rude reply from Ms Phillips who seems to be deeply troubled and needs professional help...frothing at the mouth is a clear sign of something not quite right..


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

A good friend of mine in London was placed in a bb for a couple of months with her husband after her daughter was born. Then they were placed in a spacious and beAutiful council house, with a garden I was so jelaous of them. Their main income came from selling weed. They were certainly much better off than us, who had to work in order to pay an exhorbitant rent and utility bills
I thouth that wAs not an isolated case


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> here in Spain a huge number of under 25s - even those working ( I know a 30-something *lawyer* who has only recently been able to afford to move out) live with their parents
> 
> those who are unemployed, and have never been employed - 50% of under 25s as Alcalaina stated - will get _*nothing*_ - whether they live with parents or not


 I think the whole moving out thing is just different in many aspects here. A lot of young people don't want to move out. Others move out only when they can do it in style. A few years ago I was teaching several groups of 25 - 35's in companies and a lot were in the process of getting married or were in serious relationships. Out of about 8 couples none would even think about renting - no, it had to be buy a house/ flat. The flat was often bought, at least in part with the money of the parents. Then, moving in was not even considered unless there was a fully fitted kitchen (new appliances of course) and fully furnished. Of course they already had their cars (new), public transport being another big no no. I'm not talking about posh kids either; these were people from very normal backgrounds, but the parents had most likely come a long way economically speaking in a short time and this was expected to continue at the same rate for their children to whom they had given a university education, a car, Nike shoes etc etc. 
I remember one guy saying he couldn't afford to get married so he lived with his parents and was hoping to save enough money to get married in a couple of years. He already had a mortgage, but lived with his parents. He had a new Golf car, black of course so the insurance was even more expensive. He went shopping at the weekends and bought things like an electric bass guitar...
One of my BILs at 50 still lives at home with his mother. He has always been employed, plus he has a large inheritance from other relatives who have died, so that's not a problem. He has never wanted to marry, nor move out. He's lived in the same house all his life, and actually lives very independantly from hos mother, but is there if needed. He's as happy as a sandboy!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

As Mary says, you can't define a trend by describing one contradictory example. In the article about Jerez Zoo it mentions three generations of families living in one 30 m2 flat. We know families where nobody works and whose only income is the grandmother's pension.

It's all very well saying redundancy payments are too high, but they shouldn't be reduced unless there is sufficient State support for the unemployed. Otherwise it just increases the black economy, forcing people to choose between working on the black or resorting to crime, just to survive.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Sonrisa said:


> A good friend of mine in London was placed in a bb for a couple of months with her husband after her daughter was born. Then they were placed in a spacious and beAutiful council house, with a garden I was so jelaous of them. Their main income came from selling weed. They were certainly much better off than us, who had to work in order to pay an exhorbitant rent and utility bills
> I thouth that wAs not an isolated case



Obviously I can't comment on individual cases and yes, some people get council houses without in some people's opinions 'deserving' them....But this couple and child had spent a few months in a B&B....no way The Ritz!! I inspected some of our accommodation for homeless families when I was a Councillor and believe me, we wouldn't keep our dog there, he is used to better surroundings. Small rooms with thin walls, a shared usually filthy kitchen, often unsavoury fellow occupants... We improved things to a certain extent but even so I would have slept under a hedge rather than go into one of these 'halfway houses'. It's as though people are punished for the 'crime' of being homeless.

If this couple's main income came from selling weed - I presume they were on benefits - they wouldn't have been able to get a mortgage. I guess they could have rented privately but then if they were on benefits the taxpayer would have paid the private landlord anyway.

Yes, I agree, there are some fraudulent undeserving cases, as there are benefit cheats. Fact is, however, that the amount of tax unpaid due to tax avoidance ( a practice of questionable morality) or tax evasion (illegal) makes the amount fraudulently claimed by recipients of welfare look like a bill for one of Sir Philip Green's (tax avoider-in-chief and Government advisor) frequent parties.

As Adam Smith- whom many cite but few have read - sagely pointed out,,...it seems a human disposition to magnify the faults of the insignificant and ignore or even admire the moral and social failings of the rich and powerful.

Otherwise known as that very unBritish practice of kicking the underdog....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> As Mary says, you can't define a trend by describing one contradictory example. In the article about Jerez Zoo it mentions three generations of families living in one 30 m2 flat. We know families where nobody works and whose only income is the grandmother's pension.
> 
> It's all very well saying redundancy payments are too high, but they shouldn't be reduced unless there is sufficient State support for the unemployed. Otherwise it just increases the black economy, forcing people to choose between working on the black or resorting to crime, just to survive.


And where, in Spain, is the sense in evicting families for non-payment of mortgage when the lender will repossess a devalued property at less than the loan value which may take months to sell - and with the glut of properties it could take years - for which it could have negotiated a smaller mortgage repayment until the economy improves?

Financially ...unsound. Better something than nothing.
Socially....very dangerous. Angry frustrated people are not nice members of society. Bad enough when they are like that through character weakness. Much worse when society makes decent people change like that.

The point about redundancy payments being so ridiculously high is that they place too heavy a burden on PYMEs and thus hinder growth and job creation. Small businesses simply can't afford these payments when, in a downturn like the present time, they may need to lose employees. There is a risk in such situations that every employee will lose their job as the company simply can't struggle on.
I'm afraid that it is impossible for every worker to have his/her 'rights' taken into account. At the end of the day, the only way out of this mess is for all sides of industry -government, employees, industry - to come together in a good old-fashioned Germanic corporatist way and agree on measures to get us out of the crisis, measures which are both fair and effective.
The debt and deficit must be reduced...there is simply no way of avoiding this because at present governments aren't in the driving seat...the markets are.

Anyone serious about change should infiltrate the major parties and work for a new approach based on regulation, protection of domestic economies, stimulus for the private sector, the only source of wealth creation, fair redistribution measures and a recognition that most people value stability over choice and identify themselves as members of communities, society even, with shared values and ways of organising social life.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> *it seems a human disposition to magnify the faults of the insignificant and ignore or even admire the moral and social failings of the rich and powerful.*
> 
> Otherwise known as that very unBritish practice of kicking the underdog....


Isn't that also part of the Conservative Party's charter as practiced by the likes of MT and now Camoron?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Isn't that also part of the Conservative Party's charter as practiced by the likes of MT and now Camoron?


I think DC is a totally different type of Tory to MT. She took to heart the bits of Adam Smith that suited her views and convictions.

I think DC is struggling to become a 'One Nation'Tory in the traditional conservative mainstream of MacMillan, Heath, Heseltine, Patten, Prior and their ilk....the 'wets'.

You should read the invective he gets on Conservative Home...a fascinating and very informative website.

Problem is, MT''s neo-liberalism and TB's Neo-Conservatism killed off all the traditional supports of small 'c' conservatism...the family, the middle class, the independence of the professions, respect for tradition...and dare I say it: society itself???


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Obviously I can't comment on individual cases and yes, some people get council houses without in some people's opinions 'deserving' them....But this couple and child had spent a few months in a B&B....no way The Ritz!! I inspected some of our accommodation for homeless families when I was a Councillor and believe me, we wouldn't keep our dog there, he is used to better surroundings. Small rooms with thin walls, a shared usually filthy kitchen, often unsavoury fellow occupants... We improved things to a certain extent but even so I would have slept under a hedge rather than go into one of these 'halfway houses'. It's as though people are punished for the 'crime' of being homeless.
> 
> If this couple's main income came from selling weed - I presume they were on benefits - they wouldn't have been able to get a mortgage. I guess they could have rented privately but then if they were on benefits the taxpayer would have paid the private landlord anyway.
> 
> )


I can only comment in this case because its the only one I lived personAlly . i had visited her in her bb, mainly because despite of cheAting the system, she was an Adorable person and a pleasure to be around , and yes it was AwfuL! i can confirm thT she shared a smAll kitchen with some strange looking people. She was looking forward to be moved to her new house and knew that it was only temporal until suitable accommodation was found for them. She used to joke and tease me that she wouldt have to work again.
Before all this she worked and paid rent. Shame is, if the government hadnt offered them benefits in a silver plate, she would hAve continued to work, her husband would have easily found a job because he was a hansome, intelligent man and they would be rAisning their family as productive members of society.
Some people feel thAt living off benefits is more suitable, or maybe it was an isolated case


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Sonrisa said:


> I can only comment in this case because its the only one I lived personAlly . i had visited her in her bb, mainly because despite of cheAting the system, she was an Adorable person and a pleasure to be around , and yes it was AwfuL! i can confirm thT she shared a smAll kitchen with some strange looking people. She was looking forward to be moved to her new house and knew that it was only temporal until suitable accommodation was found for them. She used to joke and tease me that she wouldt have to work again.
> Before all this she worked and paid rent. Shame is, if the government hadnt offered them benefits in a silver plate, she would hAve continued to work, her husband would have easily found a job because he was a hansome, intelligent man and they would be rAisning their family as productive members of society.
> Some people feel thAt living off benefits is more suitable, or maybe it was an isolated case



No, you are right...there are people who prefer living off benefits.

But not as many as cheat tax and no way as many as the right-wing press would have us believe.
It's still bad for the individual and society, though.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Lucie123 said:


> Yeah its the same with people being stuck at home in the uk. think the average age for buying your first house is the mid 30's unless you get yourself pregnant then you and your partner if you have one will get a fully paid for council house!



Its not fully paid (80% I think??) My friends daughter has just done it. she had her baby 6 weeks ago and has just moved into a housing association flat. she has to pay something like £5 a week rent and she received vouchers for furniture and bedding etc. However, she did have the choice of moving to a bigger house with her mother and brother, but chose not to. 

It is quite scandalous how things work here. What I find outrageous is the so called "unemployed" in our area are the ones who seem to have the money. They turn up in flash cars, go to the post office to cash their giro and then come into our shop to buy all their goodies, charge up the gas and electric keys, masses of ciggies, booze, sweets, luxuries, drugs (we have two known dealers who work outside of the shop I work in so we see it going on) . Those who work seem to come in less often and may buy a bottle of wine and hope that their pay has gone into their account, obviously counting the pennies....

I'm all for the country helping out those who have hit hard times and need a temporary prop, but not to support the idle who really have no intention of working - why should they, they do get more on the dole and they do fiddle the system, if they need more money they have another baby. I'm witnessing it, and its unfair. Their attitude doesnt help either, its very much expected and taken for granted that they deserve those who work to pay them not to. The whole thing has gone wrong in the UK. Its like the middle ages when the peasants worked and paid for the landed gentry! We now work our butts off to pay for "Vicky Pollard"

Rant over............ nearly...

As for kids staying at home til their 30s - hhhmmm, I think thats more to do with the fact they dont save like we used to. My three older daughters have spent, spent, spent since the day they got jobs, despite me telling them to save - now, two of them have huge credit and store card bills and live in rented with little hope of saving for a mortgage - well serve them right is my attitude. I always told them not to come running to me just because they chose to have designer shoes, clothes, handbags, crazy nights out and holidays......

Am I a grumpy wotsit today or what lol!!!

jo xxx


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