# "The Anti-Dummy law"



## Lunkan (Aug 28, 2020)

LOCK UP with "The Anti-Dummy law" both concerning
/ businesses 
/and some real estate "solutions" rather many attorneys do, which are ILLEGAL!!! Because of course Dummies can't be used legaly to try to get around the Anti-Dummy law :lol: 

I suppouse no one bother if a foreigner give a SMALL start capital to his Filipina wife (although it isn't legal)
but lock up when it's a bit biger start capital, which isn't likely the Filipina can have saved herself, and the amount obviously coming from the foreigner is biger than the max percentage a foreigner is allowed to own. In legal point of view concerning own business foreigner and Filipina spouse count together as FOREIGNER concerning max allowed OWNING, but Filipinas don't need work permt and can do TASKS foreugners aren't allowed to do. BUT - as often are Phil laws some fuzzy  - concerning if Filipina wife to foreigner can be CEO for a company or if THEY interpreet her being as a Dummy, because foreiigners are NOT allowed to have CONTROLL over the highest boss position. (Except PERHAPS in "export business" that's unclear.)

An interpretion of the Anti-Dummy law made by a Filipino law article writer even claim a business isn't even allowed to be dominated by KNOWLEDGE coming from the foreigner!!! IF that's true, that law is IDIOTIC  because something the Philippines is very short of is Business UNDERSTANDING...


If starting a business, which COMPEETE against businesses Filipinos have, that add risk even if following the laws, but if not following the laws make it much easier for competitors to make your business closed and/or geting much punnishment, which in some cases can be even jail or deportation even for things we as foreigners perhaps not even understand the Filipinos see as a crime... E g - if it isn't changed recently IF the law makers have unerstood finaly modern acounting is suppoused to be done digital - there is a crazy demand of geting SPECIAL printed reciepts and invoiices SOON after business registration to avoid risking punnishment even if such NEVER will be used in that business!!! (E g in one of the businesses I think of starting it will take YEARS before anything will be sold, but this is demanded to get soom anyway!!! A Filipino had registered a business but it HADN'T started doing anything, but he got punnishment fee for not having that printed within a month anyway!!!)

Even a FILIPINO, who started a computer service business, got crazy problems to get his local business permit extended just because he is TO GOOD!!!  There were around 10 competitors in that town when he started, but at next January allready there were only 4 of the others left. One of the left is owned by a Filipino with local power, so he "influenced" the permit handler to come with ridicilous complaints and demands to stop/delaying the permit extension e g complained at Filipinos had peed at OTHER side of the street!!! Don't Filipinos in many towns pee "everywhere"?  
(I don't know how it ended, we lost contact. Perhaps he gave up...)

Needing business permit extension EVERY YEAR is ridicilous itself (except when it's sensitive businesses as e g food or dangerous chemicals). In my home country business permits are valid "for ever" except if some SERIOUS law break is done. I have one business permit still since I were in High school back in stone age...


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

And I would ask firstly that you introduce yourself including the, your country that offered the perpetual business registrations (good luck there). A one time fee for millennia? Definitely saves a few bucks.

Cheers, Steve.


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

The recent debacle with ABS- CBN should explain it all.


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## Lunkan (Aug 28, 2020)

bigpearl said:


> And I would ask firstly that you introduce yourself including the, your country that offered the perpetual business registrations (good luck there). A one time fee for millennia? Definitely saves a few bucks..


My introduction would be as a book  by I have done so many things parallell. 
(I wrote some in an other topic today when I were asked there.)

Here is a bit more.
Still in Sweden. 
I don't need good luck to get for ever registration, because I have had it long time  Just needed to report adress changes to the registration when I moved. It's free when moving inside same county and a small fee when moving to an other county. 
(Although it was just funny comparing, because new businesses need to be registered when the business *decription* don't suit anymore. That my first was trading, my second was distribution and PR (sold) and the one I have now do miscelenious services ("thinking" types as e g researches, software production and business consulting.) My second had rather many employees as most 115, but my new one don't have any. When I have filled the business registration forms I have allways ended the descriptions with "etcetera" to cover all if someone would complain  The statistics had problem when they tried to put my latest business in ONE category :lol: When I started my second it had to be new anyway because that have a better business form than the first one by I can legaly do some types of deals between myself and my business, which I can in my third too.

I don't know what registrations cost now here, but last I made one for a client it was just a bit over 100 usd for this better type, that one is "for ever" too. (The less good similar to Filipino Sole P type cost even less here. AND everything could be done with just 1-2 letters before internet too. One to the business registration and one to VAT if being over the minimum of not needing registration. The registration to "Swedish BIR" is AUTOMATIC when make the business registration. Then need to fill tax forms next year and send there. If having a registrered business not is use, then just need to send a tax form telling it's resting 

*It's funny Sweden have reputation being very byrocratic but many things are very easy done here*  
and almost everything can be done at distance from anywhere before internet too. 
(E g most Swedes get tax forms PREFILLED by the officials, so most people just need to check it, sign and send, which can be done all through internetsince many years back. So I can fill tax forms for Sweden siting in Phils, but mine is some more complicated and only partly prefilled. I will probably keep my Swedish business registered after the move too if not else to get cost covers for the "prospecting" of the new Phils business before that's registered. Depending of situation I will perhaps make a joint venture between my Swedish business an "my" (partly) business in the Philippines although that would be extra complicated, so I need to think of if it's worth the extra work. But on the other hand then can the machinery used in Phils be owned by my Swedish company, which would make it harder to scam me of. I mean legaly


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## pagbati (Apr 9, 2014)

Lunkan said:


> My introduction would be as a book  by I have done so many things parallell.
> (I wrote some in an other topic today when I were asked there.)
> 
> Here is a bit more.
> ...


Reading over that post I’m reminded of the comments from an economics lecturer to his students after delivering a particularly difficult subject: 
_“If you understood what I said just now, you haven’t been listening properly”._ :confused2:


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## Lunkan (Aug 28, 2020)

pagbati said:


> Reading over that post I’m reminded of the comments from an economics lecturer to his students after delivering a particularly difficult subject:
> _“If you understood what I said just now, you haven’t been listening properly”._ :confused2:


Well. It isn't important anyone understand THAT post  which you answered, because that's just off topic stuff Bigpearl asked about,

BUT if you have/think of geting real estate or business in the Philippinem then it's important to understand what I wrote about "The Anti Dummy Law" to reduce risk geting big mess/fooled by attorney.


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

And,,,,,, never start a sentence with and. My earlier submission was to introduce yourself,,,,,,, to the forum, members then perhaps we will read the same books you do.

Cheers, Steve.


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## Lunkan (Aug 28, 2020)

bigpearl said:


> My earlier submission was to introduce yourself,,,,,,, to the forum, members then perhaps we will read the same books you do..


Do you mean writing "Biography" "A few details about yourself" with space for a few letters?
Not even space there to write the main "keywords" which wouln't say much.
Special for me is I have done very different types of things, partly depening of I like different types of challenges. E g one challenge was geting a book approved and paid by a publishing company. (Done).
No kids, which have made I have had time to do more different things. But now it's time to get kids at age 67 

In the Biography there isn't even space for these examples of what I have done:
Broken knees. Elite sports aren't healthy 
Own businesses since I were 24yo. (Well. Correct is the first I registerred in High school but that was to get big discount at wholesales of candy :lol:
Lead two clubs from bottom to Swedish elite.




bigpearl said:


> And,,,,,, never start a sentence with and.


Well. A tiny bit of my Biography is  I have written rather much for newspapers during the years. Newspapers want short sentences even when the correct would be long so in newspapers it's common to start "sentenses" with words as "And" and "But".
I write much different style when writing for newspapers than when I write documents to courts!!!  A third type is for forums.


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## Lunkan (Aug 28, 2020)

But now this topic has been turned to be about me instead of the for foreigners - who buy real estate or start business - very impostant "Anti Dummy law", so better back to that 

Many foreigners have been FOOLED and charged for by attorneys concerning this in the Philippines!!! But IF lucky these illegal "solutions" will never been checked.


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## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

The anti dummy law is designed to close all the loopholes. If you are found to have used some special trick to get around ownership laws, for example putting the land in the name of a local who does not actually own the land, setting up a corporation in such a way that you get around the 60/40 ownership laws then all transactions are deemed to have not legally occurred.

In practice I think that this means that the land you bought will revert to the original owner and the original owner will owe you the money back.

Good luck collecting on that debt.

Best to stick to doing all your transactions in ways that meet the spirit of the laws. Don't look for loopholes or the work around. Here the law has a lot more "flexibility" than in the west so keep it 100% clean legally.


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## Zep (Jun 8, 2017)

Lunkan said:


> "The Anti-Dummy law"
> 
> I suppose no one bother if a foreigner give a SMALL start capital to his Filipina wife (although it isn't legal)


If they are married then everything the foreigner owns is technically the wife's as well. Nothing for them to give as the wife can just legally take it.


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## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

Zep said:


> If they are married then everything the foreigner owns is technically the wife's as well. Nothing for them to give as the wife can just legally take it.


You can enter into a prenup and change the default of communal property but it has to be done before and in contemplation of marriage.


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## Lunkan (Aug 28, 2020)

Manitoba said:


> The anti dummy law is designed to close all the loopholes. If you are found to have used some special trick to get around ownership laws, for example putting the land in the name of a local who does not actually own the land, setting up a corporation in such a way that you get around the 60/40 ownership laws then all transactions are deemed to have not legally occurred


 Yes. But not only concerning owning.
It's about the control power too. The crazy rather common ILLEGAL "solution" attorneys make is about control, and sometimes about kind of ownership too.



Manitoba said:


> Best to stick to doing all your transactions in ways that meet the spirit of the laws. Don't look for loopholes or the work around. Here the law has a lot more "flexibility" than in the west so keep it 100% clean legally.


 That make it extra remarkable several Filipino attorneys make the illegal solution, which has no chance to manage a proper control...

- -


Zep said:


> If they are married then everything the foreigner owns is technically the wife's as well.


 Well. Kind of. In comments about the law it's talked about money obviously common from assets the foreigner had before the marriage. If such capital is used to finance a business in a higher percentage than foreigners can own ( =max 40 % for most types) then it's ILLEGAL if Filipina wife's name parts make the total over 40 %, because in business owning point of view foreigner + Filipina wife are counted as FOREIGNER. That article talked about businesses, but that make me believe same goes for land. If so land can't be in Filipina wife's name, that *wouldn't *solve the max ownership rule... 

Some unclear things:
1. (When business) How about if 40% of cash money come from foreigner and 60 % is financed by BANK loan in Filipina wife's name? I GUESS not ok, but I hope ok 
2. (When land). If the Filipina has land financed by herself BEFORE marriage and marry a foreigner. To be consistent that would become illegal to keep after marriage, but it isn't suprising if things in Phils aren't consistent  I know a foreigner can even be at a title as "sideowner" to Filipina, or what to call it, SHOWING he own half, but the Filipina is in charge except both have agree to selling.



Zep said:


> Nothing for them to give as the wife can just legally take it.


 No she can¨t take whole legaly when the foreigner stand as "sideowner" to a land. But she can sell if she stand as only owner to e g a car. 
A friend of mine has a greedy wife, who left both him and their kids many years ago. Rather recently she contacted him because she had got a high offer from interested buyer and BOTH have to sign the selling documents for the land where he stand as"sideowner". So he will get half of the money of that land. He suppouse the greedy wife expect to get money from the biger land too, but she will not because that is in now grown up daughter's name... :lol: (The daughter is fair and my friend want that money to be split equal between the kids, so I suppouse that will happen.)

BUT Filipina girlfriends/wifes can take things easy if foreigner do as many scamed foreigners have done puting all in Filipina's name. That's why I talk about other LEGAL solutions as well as how NOT to do.


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## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

Lunkan said:


> ,,,,,,
> BUT Filipina girlfriends/wifes can take things easy if foreigner do as many scamed foreigners have done puting all in Filipina's name. That's why I talk about other LEGAL solutions as well as how NOT to do.


All too often the legal principle in play here is who has the most money and the least influence, that party must pay.

Since rich foreigner is a redundant term in the minds of most Filipinos, and since we have no family connections or strong loyalty ties here we have zero influence.


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## Lunkan (Aug 28, 2020)

Manitoba said:


> Since rich foreigner is a redundant term in the minds of most Filipinos, and since we have no family connections or strong loyalty ties here we have zero influence.


 Corect. But that's no reason to put things in Filipina gf's name so she can just take it legaly.
And as I wrote being on the land title as "sideowner" have stoped my friend's greedy ex* wife from selling the land his name is on too...  

* They aren't divorced/annuled, but she left him and their kids over 20 years ago.


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## Cebu Citizen (Dec 13, 2013)

Lunkan said:


> Corect. But that's no reason to put things in Filipina gf's name so she can just take it legaly.
> And as I wrote being on the land title as "sideowner" have stoped my friend's greedy ex* wife from selling the land his name is on too...
> 
> * They aren't divorced/annuled, but she left him and their kids over 20 years ago.


Sometimes you have NO choice...it is a fact of law and there is NO way around it...a foreigner is NOT allowed to physically own land in the Philippines...so "IF" we buy any land, it MUST be in the name of a Philippine National!

A foreigner can own a house, a condo, a business, a car, a boat, a plane...we CAN own anything legally in our name in the Philippines...EXCEPT LAND...

ONLY PHILIPPINE NATIONALS CAN LEGALLY OWN ANY PART OF PHILIPPINE LAND...

So, if we are married and want to buy land and build a house, our wife is the best option...and if you end up splitting...then yes she has the land and anything on it...

The only other option is to have a Filipino friend or an attorney as your partner and put the land in their name but I would venture to say, I can trust my spouse a whole lot more than someone I was not in a relationship with...


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## Lunkan (Aug 28, 2020)

Cebu Citizen said:


> ONLY PHILIPPINE NATIONALS CAN LEGALLY OWN ANY PART OF PHILIPPINE LAND....


 Well. Partly correct,
partly a common missunderstanding many believe and claim 

1. In the "sideowner" case a Filipina have to be the main name, but the "sideowner" is that much owner so the other can't sell without the foreigner sign too. It's odd not every foreigner do at least this.

(2. Foreigners can become solo owner by inheritance, but only TEMPORARY to get time to change ownership.)

3. And the main difference from the wrong claim:
*Foreigners CAN own land partly (=max 40%) through a company, which need land for the business.*


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## Cebu Citizen (Dec 13, 2013)

Lunkan said:


> Well. Partly correct,
> partly a common missunderstanding many believe and claim
> 
> 1. In the "sideowner" case a Filipina have to be the main name, but the "sideowner" is that much owner so the other can't sell without the foreigner sign too. It's odd not every foreigner do at least this.
> ...



And in ALL 3 of your examples...the FOREIGNER still DOES NOT own the land!!!

I am NOT a licensed practicing attorney here in the Philippines but this information was derived directly from my attorneys office which is one of the largest and most successful law firms in the Philippines, dealing specifically with land titling, with regards to this post:

Parlade Hildawa Parlade Eco & Panga Law Offices
PHPEPLAW :: Home

They state, so that any foreign nationals reading this post on this forum are not mis-informed:

#1 - side owner or "secondary" is only so the primary owner cannot "SELL" the land without your consent BUT the primary owner still owns it...NOT the foreigner...by Philippine law this clause only stipulates that you have a vested interest in the land, usually for financial considerations...NOT ownership!

#2 - It is not actually temporary ownership, it is actually temporary control for the sole purpose of transferring the ownership from the original owner to a new owner! In the case that your spouse dies and you are the so called "temporary", you are given an exact and specific amount of time to legally transfer that land ownership to another Filipino citizen OR risk losing the land altogether! The reason for this law...is once again because a Foreigner cannot own land here in the Philippines! Basically they are giving you the opportunity to choose who you want to be the owner of the said tract of land in question.

#3 - The reference you make to partial ownership is not ownership of the land! It applies to the ownership of a condo or a business of which a foreigner can own UP TO 40%...but the land is actually owned by the condo association or the business and NOT by any individual owners!

All 3 of these examples were answered directly by my attorneys office to shed legal light on this topic for any foreigners who might be mis-informed about these posts...

DO NOT BE FOOLED...you will ultimately lose any claims you "think" you might have if the case goes to court!

A FOREIGN NATIONAL CANNOT OWN ANY LAND, AT ANY TIME, FOR ANY PURPOSE OR REASON, ANY WHERE IN THE PHILIPPINES!!!


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## Cebu Citizen (Dec 13, 2013)

We need to be extremely careful here with regards to posts made to various threads in this Forum and we should specifically state if something we post is simply our own personal opinion or something we just read on the internet or if it is true fact posted with references. And if read on the internet, we need to be reminded that ANYONE can put ANYTHING on the internet and experts have stated for years that nearly 80% of the information found on the internet is NOT true or correct or current due to fake information for monetary gains, or delays in updating websites or hacking, etc.

I would just caution everyone, please be safe, consult an attorney in all matters of legality and do not believe everything you read or hear...


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## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

Cebu Citizen said:


> ....
> 
> #2 - It is not actually temporary ownership, it is actually temporary control for the sole purpose of transferring the ownership from the original owner to a new owner! In the case that your spouse dies and you are the so called "temporary", you are given an exact and specific amount of time to legally transfer that land ownership to another Filipino citizen OR risk losing the land altogether! The reason for this law...is once again because a Foreigner cannot own land here in the Philippines! Basically they are giving you the opportunity to choose who you want to be the owner of the said tract of land in question.
> ....
> A FOREIGN NATIONAL CANNOT OWN ANY LAND, AT ANY TIME, FOR ANY PURPOSE OR REASON, ANY WHERE IN THE PHILIPPINES!!!


Any idea how long the foreigner is typically allowed temporary ownership? Does it vary depending on locatio0n, size of parcel or is it fixed?

The anti dummy law, is designed to close all loopholes that any foreigner and or local attorney may dream up. There are ways to have effective ownership and control and use over the land but a foreigner will never get absolute ownership of land.

If you take out a long term lease, good for 25 years with an renewal for another 25 years but hold a mortgage on the land, payable on end of lease, you will have effective control. The risk is that at the end of the lease, if the land is worth much more than the mortgage, that the owner can simply pay off the mortgage and have free ownership of the land. If the mortgage is more than the land is worth, you have the leverage to get another lease. ( Personal opinion, not from any legal advice, this may also be construed as violating the anti dummy laws so be careful.)

Personally at my age a 50 year control over the land is enough, If my grandchildren want to take out an SRRV and retire here in 2070, then they can make their own arrangements.


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## Cebu Citizen (Dec 13, 2013)

Manitoba said:


> Any idea how long the foreigner is typically allowed temporary ownership? Does it vary depending on locatio0n, size of parcel or is it fixed?
> 
> The anti dummy law, is designed to close all loopholes that any foreigner and or local attorney may dream up. There are ways to have effective ownership and control and use over the land but a foreigner will never get absolute ownership of land.
> 
> ...


The answer to your question, (Any idea how long the foreigner is typically allowed temporary ownership? Does it vary depending on location, size of parcel or is it fixed?) is it SHOULD be a fixed or standardized length of time but unfortunately it depends on the Judge in the particular Court Case. I had a friend in Subic, his wife died and the Court gave him 90 days to complete the land title transfer. However; My attorney said they just finished another similar case in Paranaque, Metro Manila just last year and the Judge awarded the Foreigner only 30 days...

You are 100% absolutely correct Manitoba! Good call on the lease option because this is about the best we can do as foreigners as far as land control goes...this is exactly the arrangement my attorneys suggested for nearly ALL of my business arrangements here in the Philippines. A 25-year, long term lease is typically enough to give you full and complete control of the parcel of land with an option to renew another 25 years. After that, I will not be around anyway, so beyond the 50 years does not really concern me and any one who is interested in continuing on with my endeavors can make their own arrangements after I am gone...Hahaha!!!

To get around the situation of "IF" the leased land becomes worth more than the mortgage, my attorney suggested a clause, (which I have in my leases), that says the land owner MUST give me "first" option to renew the lease before they can consider any other options and also, "IF" I do choose to renew the lease, the price cannot go up more than a certain number of predetermined percentage points agreed upon between you and the land owner at the initial signing of the lease so that the land owner cannot scam you for an arm and a leg during any possible renewal.

Sometimes, over a long period of time, land value can skyrocket and this clause will stop the owner from raising your lease payment too high...

I try to keep in mind that MOST of the land that I initially lease is vacant and not being used anyway and the owners are not making any money on their land at that time, and also the owners typically cannot afford to develop the land themselves, so that gives you a lot of leverage because all they see is the amount of money they will get from the lease and they are not necessarily looking at how long you will be in control of their land.

My better half even gave me a long term lease agreement for our private home just in case something should happen to her, then her family cannot force me off of the land if she dies and I will remain in full control until my passing...and then her family can all fight over who gets our property after we are both gone, (we have no children).


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

I have a 25 + 25 year lease, an encumbered title (buyer beware) pay all the outgoings, a very detailed and articulate will in case of an untimely demise/foul play etc. but I do not own the land, only the improvements sitting on the land. While I think (fingers crossed) I am pretty safe here never say never and always remember "Filipino First".
I am fortunate enough to know and trust the Filipino I lease from, I was also married for 22 years and trusted implicitly my then wife who took me to the cleaners and that was in a western country so always count on the worse case scenario and cover your back side,,,,,, legally.

I did some figures before I elected to go this way. I could pay 40K a month rent for beachfront 3/4 bed 2/3 bath, large lot, safe area, private, no parties, no barking dogs or crowing roosters, you get the pic.
Lets say my 3 bed 2 bath home, built by a westerner, some 160M2 I could rent for only 30K per month.
360K P/A for 25 years equals 8.75 M before you take into account rent rises over that period. Property purchased by my trusted friend with funds paid to him for the 25+25 year lease, he owns the land for under 5M and I own the buildings and improvements for 1M total outlay. (foreign owner needed out) 
I could go on but at the end of the day Cebu Citizen is correct, I only control.
My trusted friend and his family will be the winners in the end but at least my contribution gives me/my heirs control and a place to call home and I saved money. BTW the rates are about 4.2K P/A.

Side note, there are parcels of land/property owned by foreign nationals here that were acquired prior to either 1939 or 1935 (old timers disease) but they can only be bequeathed to direct descendants and if sold must go back to a Philippine national. Sorry for the trivia and the waffle.

Cheers, Steve.


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## Cebu Citizen (Dec 13, 2013)

bigpearl said:


> I have a 25 + 25 year lease, an encumbered title (buyer beware) pay all the outgoings, a very detailed and articulate will in case of an untimely demise/foul play etc. but I do not own the land, only the improvements sitting on the land. While I think (fingers crossed) I am pretty safe here never say never and always remember "Filipino First".
> I am fortunate enough to know and trust the Filipino I lease from, I was also married for 22 years and trusted implicitly my then wife who took me to the cleaners and that was in a western country so always count on the worse case scenario and cover your back side,,,,,, legally.
> 
> I did some figures before I elected to go this way. I could pay 40K a month rent for beachfront 3/4 bed 2/3 bath, large lot, safe area, private, no parties, no barking dogs or crowing roosters, you get the pic.
> ...


I have the same attitude with my business arrangements Steve...I have had my time to shine during my successful career and I have made some good money back in the US but now I am (semi) retired here in the Philippines and I am not trying to get rich...I don't need to make any money, I am only giving my Filipino Friends and Family members a chance at owning their own businesses. I am happy with just recovering my initial investment and maybe a little extra for my time but in the end my trusted friends and family members are the real winners because they will get everything as the rightful landowners after I am gone!

But that is my intention, it gives me something to do, design, set-up and implement a good business plan, lease the land, construct any necessary structures and then year after year, I gradually phase out and little by little my trusted friends gain more and more control over the business as my investment is returned and as the lease gets closer to expiration...and in the end, I lent a helping hand to not only my friends and family members but also to their children and future generations in an attempt to lift them out of the financial burdens they face in this country as well as giving me something to do and giving me purpose during my (semi) retirement...

It works at well in the end, all the people I care about are well taken care of for the rest of their lives and it turns out as a WIN, WIN situation for all involved...


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## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

Cebu Citizen said:


> .......
> 
> To get around the situation of "IF" the leased land becomes worth more than the mortgage, my attorney suggested a clause, (which I have in my leases), that says the land owner MUST give me "first" option to renew the lease before they can consider any other options and also, "IF" I do choose to renew the lease, the price cannot go up more than a certain number of predetermined percentage points agreed upon between you and the land owner at the initial signing of the lease so that the land owner cannot scam you for an arm and a leg during any possible renewal.
> 
> .....


I would be concerned that even that sort if arrangement would be a violation of the anti dummy laws or laws that are designed to prevent foreigners from having de facto ownership of land. Remember that land ownership is limited to citizens by the constitution so foreign control is something taken seriously.


I did read on a legal site a while ago, that clauses that allow for the sale of the land in the event of a constitutional modification sometime in the future could be construed as an illegal lease. The lease would be voided, the owner gets his property back and you are hunting for your money. The courts just might rule against you if you had a clause that could force a renewal beyond the end of the 50 year lease, (75 years on investment property.)

Most of us are at a age that we will not be personally impacted by things in 50 years so if I was going to invest in long term property possession I would just stick to a standard 25+25 year lease and start telling my grandson that he will have to get his own place when he retires here in 2070.


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## Cebu Citizen (Dec 13, 2013)

Manitoba said:


> I would be concerned that even that sort if arrangement would be a violation of the anti dummy laws or laws that are designed to prevent foreigners from having de facto ownership of land. Remember that land ownership is limited to citizens by the constitution so foreign control is something taken seriously.
> 
> 
> I did read on a legal site a while ago, that clauses that allow for the sale of the land in the event of a constitutional modification sometime in the future could be construed as an illegal lease. The lease would be voided, the owner gets his property back and you are hunting for your money. The courts just might rule against you if you had a clause that could force a renewal beyond the end of the 50 year lease, (75 years on investment property.)
> ...


You are exactly right...which is why I had an attorney draw up my leases according to current Philippine Law...every clause I have in my lease agreements do not go against any laws...even the Anti-Dummy Law...my attorney specifically discussed these items with me prior to them designing my land lease agreements...they are just like a typical lease agreement if we lease an apartment or a condo...nothing out of the ordinary but still covering all the important bases to protect my investment.

Even the PRA, (Philippine Retirement Authority), has a legal department to assist foreigners with making land deals and business deals because they want foreigner dollars spent here and they do not want foreigners to get ripped off getting involved in bad agreements that will scare away any future investors.

Plus rarely, do I have a lease with a complete total stranger and (not all but most of), my trusted friends and family members clearly recognize that they will gain much more from me through mutual beneficial deals and not by stealing something from me or scamming me out of a lease agreement if they get greedy. Anyone can rip you off once...if that is their intent.

You can catch mores fly's with honey than you can with vinegar!


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

I hear you clearly. I have also tried to help my good friend (better half) and his/my family for years to come up with a stable and profitable ideas to help,,,,, to date nada. Their ideas are expensive or risky and they only see how much they can make and no consideration for the capitol outlay and recouping, running costs etc.
When pointed out that their projected 30 to sometimes 50% return annually is not such and there will in fact only be a 5 to 12% return after scrutiny and number crunching they are not prepared to put in the hard yards to make it better/work.
My good friend has come to me 3 times over the last 8 or 9 years with property deals (many) and while on the surface appear good with a little and at times a lot of scratching the truth comes out. No there is no access, only through my sisters house but it's a good house and land, clear title? No squatters land. That property 6 years ago was a mere 500K, now it's 200K and no one will touch it because it is land locked and and no one will sell access, even the owners of the vacant block behind,,,,,, yep you guessed it they are waiting for the price to hit 100K then will be snapped up. A 2 storey 2 bed 1 bath home on 400 M2. I does need renovating and perhaps 150 to 170 K would sort it. Another one, 150K, looks good, ask the questions, turns out the seller is a co owner and the other owner that lives in another country won't sell, do your homework guys.
Tricycles, another one that bit the dust, mini vans yet another. Money lending went out the window day one. I have suggested bigger fish, a Gas station, employ the whole family but I have never seen one on the market and my good friend is scared of the money involved and having trusted employees,,,,,, He said that not me. A food franchise and the list goes on.
OMO but when Filipinos are left to their own devices it works but if you bring and manage foreign investment at a local level it's too hard and when expected gratuities from any such such venture are/won't be forthcoming then they don't want to put in the hard yards to make it work. Foreigner syndrome, high expectations, lazy? Who cares, opportunity knocks all day long, a family friend of mine said to me 20+ years ago "your lucky to have all this and achieve what you have" I said to him "no luck involved, I worked my *rse off and made good decisions" 
I'm not wealthy but comfortable and the last thing I would consider is going outside the law (anti dummy or all others) and risk 46 years of grafting to wind up back in Oz on an AU 21K pension that won't pay the rent. Be wise, read and learn. LOL, (yet another prattle/waffle)

OMO the laws here and may I say in many countries are there to protect the people and countries future, pity my home country doesn't adopt the same attitude and laws. Filipino first and always.

Cheers, Steve.


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

We can all hypothesise different scenarios against/to relevant countries legally while covering our derrieres but as happens/has happened, civil war can change/bankrupt all with good intentions and those without and move forward we do, in the interim the anti dummy laws here are clear and explicit and aimed at those looking to take advantage of Filipino citizens and their economy and civil rights.
Hey I see it happening in Australia selling land and resources to foreign monopolies, my government don't have the balls to stand up and say NO! The Australian people are mostly kept in the dark and bend over because they generally have a good life........ Here it is different. Abide we do. 

OMO.

Cheers, Steve.


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## Cebu Citizen (Dec 13, 2013)

bigpearl said:


> I hear you clearly. I have also tried to help my good friend (better half) and his/my family for years to come up with a stable and profitable ideas to help,,,,, to date nada. Their ideas are expensive or risky and they only see how much they can make and no consideration for the capitol outlay and recouping, running costs etc.
> When pointed out that their projected 30 to sometimes 50% return annually is not such and there will in fact only be a 5 to 12% return after scrutiny and number crunching they are not prepared to put in the hard yards to make it better/work.
> My good friend has come to me 3 times over the last 8 or 9 years with property deals (many) and while on the surface appear good with a little and at times a lot of scratching the truth comes out. No there is no access, only through my sisters house but it's a good house and land, clear title? No squatters land. That property 6 years ago was a mere 500K, now it's 200K and no one will touch it because it is land locked and and no one will sell access, even the owners of the vacant block behind,,,,,, yep you guessed it they are waiting for the price to hit 100K then will be snapped up. A 2 storey 2 bed 1 bath home on 400 M2. I does need renovating and perhaps 150 to 170 K would sort it. Another one, 150K, looks good, ask the questions, turns out the seller is a co owner and the other owner that lives in another country won't sell, do your homework guys.
> Tricycles, another one that bit the dust, mini vans yet another. Money lending went out the window day one. I have suggested bigger fish, a Gas station, employ the whole family but I have never seen one on the market and my good friend is scared of the money involved and having trusted employees,,,,,, He said that not me. A food franchise and the list goes on.
> ...


Yeah...it is very difficult to get a "local" zebra to change their stripes, so to speak!

I have many friends ask me to help them start a business and I ask, "what type of business are you considering?" and they typically say an Okay-Okay store or a Sari-Sari store...BOTH of which are totally useless as far as recovering any type of investment because they simply DO NOT generate enough income even "IF" they are successful, the income is still extremely low! I try to sell them on a bigger idea and many are not interested in the "sweat equity" they need to make a successful business work!

The one area where I have been the MOST successful with helping trusted friends and family members with new businesses is the tourism/entertainment/recreational industry! So many countless and great opportunities and many of them require very very little initial investment and absolutely huge returns very quickly...and hiring young workers who like that sort of outdoor adventure stuff or recreational activities is easy and cheap. The work is not hard and the businesses are extremely easy to manage...especially when they see the profits rolling in...

Such as one family member, I helped start a tourist eco park business involving zip lines. They had the land and I put up the money to purchase and install several high quality zip lines and in less than 3 months I had all my initial investment back and our agreement was that I would get a very small percentage of the profits for the first five years, in exchange for helping them start the business...which they faithfully pay on time for the past three years...less than 2 more years and the business and all their profits is all theirs.

They make so much money, they are building a new house...and bought a their very first car.

I put up just over 15k and they are making so much money hand over fist...even with COVID19 they are doing very well because socially distancing is not an issue and face masks and face shields are not required in outdoor physical activities and disinfecting everything is easy because the visitors don't touch very many items in an outdoor eco park! So, even the virus has not affected the business very much!

I have received my initial investment ten times over...and I still have 2 more years of my share of the profits.

The zip line numbers were down a little lower from a small lack of foreigner tourists during the lockdown but not much because most of their customers are locals tired of being cooped up in quarantine...everyone is itching to get outside and do something...and the Provincial Government recently opened up the beaches and eco parks here as well as other outdoor activities, bike riding, paddle boards, snorkeling, scuba diving, etc. and tourists are already starting to arrive again...

There are literally hundreds of tourist or entertainment/recreational type businesses that have very low investment costs and extremely high returns on investment...and all you needs is a place to start the business...such as a piece of land, which most of my friends and family members have...the just don't have the money to develop anything themselves nor do they have the vision to come with imaginative ideas.


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

I think we are on the same page and all others go to the back.

Cheers, Steve.


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

Cebu Citizen said:


> My better half even gave me a long term lease agreement for our private home just in case something should happen to her, then her family cannot force me off of the land if she dies and I will remain in full control until my passing...and then her family can all fight over who gets our property after we are both gone, (we have no children).


Depending on your relationship with your better half I would question the the legality of this lease and whether it contravenes the family code.


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## Lunkan (Aug 28, 2020)

Lunkan said:


> 3. *Foreigners CAN own land partly (=max 40%) through a company, which need land for the business.*





Cebu Citizen said:


> And in ALL 3 of your examples...the FOREIGNER still DOES NOT own the land!!!
> 
> #3 - The reference you make to partial ownership is not ownership of the land! It applies to the ownership of a condo or a business of which a foreigner can own UP TO 40%...but the land is actually owned by the condo association or the business and NOT by any individual owners!


But if owning shares in a company, then owning shares of the assets in it,
so a foreigner CAN own 40 % of land  even if not calling it that...
Or do you claim owning 100 % of something isn't owning it?  

"


Cebu Citizen said:


> we should specifically state if something we post is simply our own personal opinion.


"
Well. I have read the LAWS myself both about real estate and about business laws 
plus articles about these laws written by Filipinos. 

E g foreigners can own more than 40 % of some types of companies, some types even 100 % (although max 40 % is the common) 
BUT as soon as a company own land, then foreigners can OWN max 40 % even if he owned 100 % of the company before the land got bought.



Cebu Citizen said:


> I am NOT a licensed practicing attorney here in the Philippines but this information was derived directly from my attorneys office



Well. Sure some attorneys know what they are talking about, BUT:
1. They can want you to believe you need them more than you do, so they can charge you 
2. I have told several terrible examples of Filipino licenced attorneys e g
/several attorneys making "solutions" charging much for using Dummies to try to get around the Anti-Dummy law!!!
/An attorney got the work to put land in Filipina's name (before marriage) house in foreigner's name and he lease the land. (I doubt that's legal after the marriage, but I don't know.) Anyway - the attorney put averythiing in the Filipina's name and told them to sign. They did believing he had done as he was told to do. To the Filipina's supprise all was in her name, when I told her to check after the foreigner had screwed up by hiting her. Lucky for him this is an honest Filipina, so she aimed at paying him the sell amount anyway, but she got big problems by the bills came in her name and the foreigner demanded to sell for what he had paid so it became problem to sell.
/An attorney got involved in hanling a purchase of a beach. (I don't know in who's name but a foreigner was paying.) It ended up with the attorney fooled the buyer so he got only half of the land for the price for whole and the attorney took the other half for himself for free...


Perhaps relevant "biography" part:
I'm not an attorney. As kid I though of becoming one, but I skiped it because back then attorneys had to have ties 
In Sweden it's allowed to do attorneys's jobs for clients too, in courts too, as long as not calling myself "attorney" or"lawyer".
I have wonn 100 % for clients when the opponent have been private. Once even against an attorney from a big attorney company 
Harder to winn against officials, but I have wonn around half of them too. E g I managed to make "BIR" pay rather much money to a client! It started with the client called me and was worried, because "BIR" had told him it wasn¨t allowed to do as he had done. I thought a few minutes during he was talking. Then I said: "Then we do like this". Result: No punnishment. "BIR" paid him instead. (Still some in progress because I try to make "BIR" pay AIITIONAL a million 

So in Phils I will check and doublecheck some things, but I will never trust a Filipino attorney if I don't think same myself too  (I will ask them BEFORE I tell what I think.)


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## Lunkan (Aug 28, 2020)

Manitoba said:


> Any idea how long the foreigner is typically allowed temporary ownership? Does it vary depending on locatio0n, size of parcel or is it fixed?


 I haven't seen it in a law but in a law forum (closed now) with lawyers and law students, someone said 3 months. 



Manitoba said:


> The anti dummy law, is designed to close all loopholes that any foreigner and or local attorney may dream up. There are ways to have effective ownership and control and use over the land but a foreigner will never get absolute ownership of land.


 Except if you talk about lease or condo, there are NOT ways for foreigners to have control for sure as far as I know. That's what many fishy attorneys try to make foreigners believe when they make an charge for an ILLEGAL "solutions" with DUMMIES to try to get around the "Anti-Dummy law" !!!
Legal though is if having 40 % of the shares votes and 40 % of the board votes in a company, then geting what you want IF at least one of the Filipinos in the board vote same as the foreigners, but that CAN'T be sure legaly. 
Geting majority at share holders meetings with only 40 % of the votes can have big chance if the 60 % of the Filipino shares are SPREAD between many Filipinos so they get problem to make enough agree against me. I suppouse most wouln't even bother to come to the meating as long as the company get good result  It's possible more than 40 % of the Filipino shares will bote other thah the foreigner want, so foreigners CAN'T be sure of control because that would be illegal. ..



Manitoba said:


> If you take out a long term lease, good for 25 years with an renewal for another 25 years but hold a mortgage on the land, payable on end of lease, you will have effective control. The risk is that at the end of the lease, if the land is worth much more than the mortgage, that the owner can simply pay off the mortgage and have free ownership of the land.


And he get the improvements for FREE including buildings you have made and paid for. .
Earlier I thoight some similar as you but I stoped researchiing that because I aim at it will belomg to great grandkids for ever. So I haven't checked if it can be legal with an OPTION document to buy for a prediced price (perhaps plus inflation.) I don't know in Phils, but in Sweden option deals have a much shorter max limit than leases. 10 years or less.


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## Lunkan (Aug 28, 2020)

"Lease"
Some huge companies make long time lease contracts with kind of "slave" type paying very little in lease fees.
E g one owner put up a sale add recently for a huge land with a lease fee of only 80k per year, 13 years left. (I don't know if extension left on top of that.) No buyer will do such LOSS deal , so the owner has *no chance *to sell it for an ok price. (Except to the leasers, but why would they buy it for much money when they have the right to use it for small money anyway...

- -
>bigpearl
Yes much better to rent a home, if you find one you like. There are many beach houses for rent cheap compared to what they cost to buy.

(The problem for me is where I want to live inland there are huts or tiny houses  (There are a few haciendas but they cost to much and/or have floorplans I don't like. The only exception I have seen in years have a huge piggery just beside so not odd they are prepared to sell cheap because of the smell :heh:



Cebu Citizen said:


> I am only giving my Filipino Friends and Family members a chance at owning their own businesses. I am happy with just recovering my initial investment and maybe a little extra for my time but in the end my trusted friends and family members are the real winners because they will get everything as the rightful landowners after I am gone!
> But that is my intention, it gives me something to do, design, set-up and implement a good business plan, lease the land, construct any necessary structures and then year after year, I gradually phase out and little by little my trusted friends gain more and more control over the business as my investment is returned and as the lease gets closer to expiration...


 I suppouse for such you don't need to go through leasing, or why not starting companies with your trusted friends and fanily (separate for each) and let them have 60 % of the ownership officialy direct?
I haven't thought much about if there can be done solutions legaly in Phils too by I don't want to make any there, e g through some kind of "rent to own" where they get the ownership when the agreed amount to you is reached. I suppouse possible by there are "rent to own" deals concerning condos in Phils.
(I did such deal when I sold in Sweden. Actualy I got the final pay Monday this week after delay by the buyer didn't pay rents in time.)


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## Lunkan (Aug 28, 2020)

Cebu Citizen said:


> Plus rarely, do I have a lease with a complete total stranger and (not all but most of), my trusted friends and family members clearly recognize that they will gain much more from me through mutual beneficial deals and not by stealing something from me or scamming me out of a lease agreement if they get greedy. Anyone can rip you off once...if that is their intent.


 I hope you have found clever thinking ahead enough ones. 
I hope I will find enough many such too, suuting to be involved when I start.

Filipinos in average aren't famous for thinking ahead  but many "westerners" don't think ahead enough neither. 
((The only projects, which have failed, when I have been involved are when I didn't have the power majority and the majority screwed up by greed short thinking, because they would have got much more in the long run if they hadn't screwed me. The worst example made a big* loss himself* by trying to screw me so I stoped assistiing him organicing his separate part anymore and it ended up with Interpol hunting him by he had screwed others who reported him. (I didn't bother because I knew he got broke when I stoped solving the mess he made in his business.) 



bigpearl said:


> I have also tried to help my good friend (better half) and his/my family for years to come up with a stable and profitable ideas to help,,,,, to date nada. ... they only see how much they can make and no consideration for the capitol outlay and recouping, running costs etc.


Yes. Not even many of the loooong time Filipino business owners can make a correct business calculation!!! E g they don't count costs for start costs as building an machinery "because that's paid allreay"!!!  not even when a buildiing were close to break so it will need replacement soon. 

I have found a suprising exception - a *low educated *Filipina. She even had to skip highschool having scholarship. because the family is so poor so she had to start working young to assist the family to survive.
I gave her a free business education starting direct with an assignment to make a correct business calculation to see how much she could figuere out herself. She did it coorect direct 
(She has managed to start profitable businesses twice with tiny start capital she had managed to save, but both have been destroyed by the "crab mentality" people expecting her to give them money even from the business capital. She felt she couldn't say No. So now she has given up trying. ..

A successing poor Filipina had no money at all, even had to borrow "5-6" to get raw material. She had only an idea and much determintation. She had sold a bunch to a shop even before she had started producing them!  (She had made a sample to show before she went there.) 
After two months she had no dept and earned enough to start saving to exband and employ!



bigpearl said:


> Their ideas are expensive or risky and they only see


 Almost all Filipinos I have talked with about business ideas, they have thought tiny as sarisari, tricycle, foodcart or fatening a few piglets even when being gfs so I would be the financiere if we marry. 
A few I have talked with have thought big but most of them think wrong as you talked about not thinkijng of the risks, when it have been their own capital too.


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## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

Lunkan said:


> ....
> 
> Almost all Filipinos I have talked with about business ideas, they have thought tiny as sarisari, tricycle, foodcart or fatening a few piglets even when being gfs so I would be the financiere if we marry.
> A few I have talked with have thought big but most of them think wrong as you talked about not thinkijng of the risks, when it have been their own capital too.


I don't believe that thinking small or inappropriately sized, not being able to do basic business calculations, or even understanding the concepts of opportunity cost or sunk costs, is necessarily a Filipino trait. I have seen it several times in shall we say "lower educated" people.

I know numerous people back home that have this grand idea that they will get money somewhere, no idea where, start a business, no real idea what business other than a fuzzy concept, and then be the boss, with no idea what being a boss/owner actually involves, come in when they want, take all the money they want and be mean and rude to their staff.

When they cannot get the money, it is everyone else's fault and that is the only thing that is stopping them from being jet setting business people living the good life.

Every time I have been asked to supply start up capital, here or elsewhere, I simply ask to see their business plan. If I get a blank look I direct them to the US Small Business Administration web site that has loads of good information , templates etc for business startups. 

So far I have never seen a business plan from anyone. One person back home started doing one but quickly gave up once she realized just how much work doing the basic plan was let alone what actually starting a business involved.

That SBA site has saved me a lot of money lol.


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## cvgtpc1 (Jul 28, 2012)

bigpearl said:


> I hear you clearly. I have also tried to help my good friend (better half) and his/my family for years to come up with a stable and profitable ideas to help,,,,, to date nada. Their ideas are expensive or risky and they only see how much they can make and no consideration for the capitol outlay and recouping, running costs etc.
> When pointed out that their projected 30 to sometimes 50% return annually is not such and there will in fact only be a 5 to 12% return after scrutiny and number crunching they are not prepared to put in the hard yards to make it better/work.
> My good friend has come to me 3 times over the last 8 or 9 years with property deals (many) and while on the surface appear good with a little and at times a lot of scratching the truth comes out. No there is no access, only through my sisters house but it's a good house and land, clear title? No squatters land. That property 6 years ago was a mere 500K, now it's 200K and no one will touch it because it is land locked and and no one will sell access, even the owners of the vacant block behind,,,,,, yep you guessed it they are waiting for the price to hit 100K then will be snapped up. A 2 storey 2 bed 1 bath home on 400 M2. I does need renovating and perhaps 150 to 170 K would sort it. Another one, 150K, looks good, ask the questions, turns out the seller is a co owner and the other owner that lives in another country won't sell, do your homework guys.
> Tricycles, another one that bit the dust, mini vans yet another. Money lending went out the window day one. I have suggested bigger fish, a Gas station, employ the whole family but I have never seen one on the market and my good friend is scared of the money involved and having trusted employees,,,,,, He said that not me. A food franchise and the list goes on.
> ...


Steve,
Applies perfectly to my van service thread...we're going to make 1000s of pesos per month....but I ask how much is insurance? i don't know. Fuel? I don't know. Licenses? I don't know...and the list goes on.

Money lending is the one thing that will get a foreigner killed.

Dennis


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## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

cvgtpc1 said:


> Steve,
> Applies perfectly to my van service thread...we're going to make 1000s of pesos per month....but I ask how much is insurance? i don't know. Fuel? I don't know. Licenses? I don't know...and the list goes on.
> 
> Money lending is the one thing that will get a foreigner killed.
> ...


And many Filipinos have suffered that fate also cv. as the old saying goes "you can lead a horse to water" etc.
I hear you with regards to your thread, similar to some threads I have been tied up with over the years with regards to licensed tricycle runs and all that goes with it....... initially when they were 450 to 500K per licence and late model bike I said to ben given initial figures,,,,, buy them all (1600 odd in SFC) joking, but as the accurate and realistic figures rolled in over a couple of years while we lived in Oz, the prices went up to 600K and the true cost/investment was there for even the perpetrator of this venture to see it's better to sit at home and enjoy.

Cheers, Steve.


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## Lunkan (Aug 28, 2020)

Manitoba said:


> I don't believe that thinking small or inappropriately sized, not being able to do basic business calculations, or even understanding the concepts of opportunity cost or sunk costs, is necessarily a Filipino trait. I have seen it several times in shall we say "lower educated" people.


 Well. I have seen missing basic business understanding among high educated too :heh: 
In western countriess too e g at the "IT bubble" 20 years ago. I told people in public forums about stock trading and a CEO of such investment company a half year before the crash the bubble will burst but no one listened. E g in one case several million dollars were wasted at a company the investors let be led by two people, who's only "merit" were they had went bankruptcy before!!!  

It's funny how many expats in e g Thailand, who believe they will succeed ieasy as bar owners just because they have been frequent bar customers :heh:

Thinking small isn't so odd by poor are used to just think about what can be done with small money, and not used to think far ahead because the poor have enough with thinking of surviving. But it's remarkable how many poor who "waste" money when they have instead of using it later. E g one very poor family take tricycle 400 meters when they have money, other days they starve...
Filipinos thought a foreigner were out of money because he walked 100 meters instead of taking the jeepney 

Filipinos are very *good *at copy business ideas. Nothing wrong with that basicly,
BUT because of missing basic business understanding - AND missing logic thinking capacity - it's very common they copy *to close *to the origin so everyone lose. They have no clue about "Supply & Demand" (=Simplified: How hard is the competition and how many possible customers are available.) This is extreemly common in the Philippines. Sari-saris and food carts "everywhere" and more Filipinos think of opening such anyway...
Example of copying to close:
Back before it started to become common with small resellers of load a Filipina living of a small island (200 households) started such and earned rather good. (Vefore covid) A bunch copied selling such, some even sold with loss to try to get their money back so it's bad business for all. Then same Filipina started getimg vegs from the mainland to sell. Soon that was copied too. Worse with vegs by they rutten when not get sold.
No chance to earn good by MLM in the Philippines except if being among the first, because all interested join, E g in a municipaly at Cebu there were huge amount had joined, in a mountain baranggay with few people there were more than enough of "resellers"for the whole municipaly. So there were no one left to sell to in that municipaly... Similar elsewhere in Phils because the owners talked about start growing abroad.
It's good Filipinos are interested in starting own business, but it's bad when it's done by people without business mind. 
(It's similar in western countries when governments have programs to support business startups for unemployed people. Almost all go bankruptcy/close when the support period ends so a lot of capital is wasted.)

Summary: So there are stupid/incompetent people in business everywhere, but some more missing logic in the Philippines. Some very important things as e g not copy to close can be figuered out without education.



Manitoba said:


> the boss, with no idea what being a boss/owner actually involves, come in when they want, take all the money they want and be mean and rude to their staff.


 Correct. The much more effective"Flat" business organisations (=Listen to all employees, delegate detail decisions to the employees, freedom under responcibility...) started to become common in Sweden almost 30 years ago. Foreign companies buy Swedish companies and have Pyramid leader style still!!! geting problem to lead Swedes used to "Flat " leaders...



Manitoba said:


> Business plan... If I get a blank look I direct them to the US Small Business Administration web site that has loads of good information , templates etc for business startups.


 That don't help for people without business mind thinking. Not having plan = having no business mind, but you got rid of them 
But sure such info can assist people with business mind to make shortcuts compared to need to figuerre out everything selve, and "Wice people learn by other's misstakes".


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## M.C.A. (Feb 24, 2013)

cvgtpc1 said:


> Steve,
> Applies perfectly to my van service thread...we're going to make 1000s of pesos per month....but I ask how much is insurance? i don't know. Fuel? I don't know. Licenses? I don't know...and the list goes on.
> 
> Money lending is the one thing that will get a foreigner killed.
> ...


Contacting the LTO would be the only way to find out the costs to register a van for business use.

Dennis the insurance for sure will be much higher than the standard (1000 pesos) Insurance you get from the LTO. So car insurance will run PHP 8,000 to PHP 30,000+ per year. Here's a link that might help you figure out the cost check your PM box. 

Fuel cost by location:
https://www.doe.gov.ph/sites/default/files/pdf/price_watch/petro_ncr_2020_sep_03.pdf

When we travel from Sta Cruz Laguna to Sta Rosa several times and it was 500 pesos round trip cost in gas, 26 miles (43 kilometres) and with traffic it's a 90 minute drive each way plus.


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## M.C.A. (Feb 24, 2013)

There's an Expat from the UK that owns BadLadz Resort in Puerto Galera on Mindoro he would be the guy to talk with about dummy laws/Insurance, he does have a video on his experience with automobile insurance or anything business, rentals, condos ect... He sure has some stories to share also ways to protect yourself in these transactions and I would check him out for sure, many expats have lost big and he also shares that in his videos, he gives many incites, not only crooks but political issues or limitations... so many ways to get caught off guard. 

He's on YouTube and he does accept appointments so if you want to visit him and get some helpful business advice he'd be the one to talk with he also owns condos in Manila from what I remember. I think Manitoba mentioned he has great tasting Mexican food served at his restaurant and I do remember watching that on one of his videos.


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## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

M.C.A. said:


> There's an Expat from the UK that owns BadLadz Resort in Puerto Galera on Mindoro he would be the guy to talk with about dummy laws/Insurance, ....


When I was there in February, I did chat a little about property owning with him. He said that all he does is the basic long term lease, 50 years is so far in the future that it is irrelevant in his business plans. He does take a mortgage on the property but that is an additional protection on his investment, not a means of control.

At least that is what I got out of a 2 minute discussion on the topic.

I had stayed there in 2018 and picked it again just for the Mexican food.:clap2:

My advice is just play by the rules, you will run into much less hassles than trying to exploit a loophole that someone says exists. The anti dummy laws are blanket laws designed to close off any loopholes and I would expect that they would be interpenetrated in that fashion, if you come up with something that on its face is totally legal, but gives a foreigner de facto long term control, for longer than the normal lease terms, do not be surprised if you lose the lease have to return the property and then fight to get your money back.

I want security in having a place to live for as long as I need it, not to have property for the future.


You realize you can buy and sell the unexpired portion of a long term lease as well? I did see one ad for a property in Subic that was for the remaining 38 years. That would be a slightly lower cost option and provide a secure place to live for as long as I would expect to need the property.


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