# Classic car (import) update



## travelling-man

Just thought I'd give you an update on my classic Jeep and ask a question or three:

I imported my 1980(ish) Jeep from South Africa last year. As part of that process, it was recalled to Customs in Aveiro for a further inspection. The car passed with flying colours and Customs declared no import tax to pay. 

Then I took it for MOT/Homolgation/Matriculation inspection that it passed (after a change of exhaust system).

I've just been sent the paperwork with the new portuguese registration number and year of manufacture etc.......... so can get the number plates made and I'm told the new Portuguese registration document will be posted to me in a few weeks time. The number plate incidentally, shows the year of manufacture are 82 - 01 indicating 1982 January. 

Now for the questions:

If the year of manufacture shows as 1982 and internet research shows cars older that 25 years old are exempt from road tax......... why am I being told I need to pay E650 a year road tax?

Also, if I mothball the car in my garage and don't drive it on the public roads must I still pay that annual road tax?

Last but not least, if I convert the car to GPL/LPG and have it's emissions remeasured (these will be considerably lower once converted) should the road tax drop to a lower bracket?


----------



## canoeman

Don't believe there is any concession on road tax for Classic cars,
_"Vehicle tax (Imposto Automóvel) must be paid for all classic cars 
Vehicles made before 1960 are taxed at a lower rate"_

One of the *major downsides* of Matriculating is that Road Tax is charged at the rate of the year/month of Matriculation *not* the year of First registration.

You need to go back and query and hope that someone has made a mistake, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

Road tax, as owner your liable for Road Tax whether on road or not, no SORN here.

GPL think you need to check very carefully R&R for import of classic, by converting it's no longer a classic so you *might* be liable to pay import duty.


----------



## travelling-man

Strewth..... they don't make it easy do they!


----------



## canoeman

No would you want it any other way
Problem your dealing with 3 separate agencies

Customs handle and define what if any import tax you might pay and adherence to importing regulations.
IMTT responsible for vehicle registration, so the ones you need to tackle
Financas responsible for road tax, non payment or late payment is treated as a Fiscal offence.

You or your agent really need to go and see IMTT and find out the exact position and registration date, did your agent not point this out or is he surprised?

If you've got online access to your Tax a/c worthwhile checking whether ownership has already been registered to your Fiscal Number, it would also confirm the IUC (Road tax) due.


----------



## travelling-man

The agent seems fairly effecient in most ways but doesn't seem to know anything about the differences between classic and modern cars........ I'll maybe call the classic car museum and talk to one of their people to see what they say.

At the end of the day, I guess if I have to pay it then that's what I'll do.......


----------



## canoeman

Just if you can get IUC to year should be about 86€ a bit different to 650€


----------



## travelling-man

Well worth trying then...... I'll pass the info onto the agent and see what he has to say.... Thanks!


----------



## oronero

Anymore info regarding importing classic cars and more importantly whether the annual IUC costs is based on year of import and not year of build...I have a 1977 TR7 V8 rally car and I would like to bring it with me.

Is this also applicable to old motorcycles as I have a 1990 Ducati that I would also like to bring.

I gather that if you are bringing in track/race bikes that are not registered for road use than there is no import tax nor worries about matriculation etc. or am I wrong?


----------



## travelling-man

I can only tell you about my personal experience.

They allowed me to import the car duty free. The registration process took about 6 months & cost E600 + E30 for permission to use a non standard sized number plate..... I reckon the registration process could have been done faster but my agent was as much use as a chocolate teapot and I'd never use him again.

PT says cars over 25 years of age are free of road tax. They acknowledged the age of the car on the number plate but as far as the road tax was concerned, IMTT count those 25 years from the date of registration rather than the age of manufacture.

I contacted FIVA and was told that I should appeal but that so far, none of the many appeals that have already taken place have succeeded...... So I didn't even bother. I'm sure that if I tried to appeal, I'd have to do it in Portuguese which I don't yet speak and I sure as hell wasn't about to ask the agent mentioned earlier to do it for me. 

The good news is that the PT version of the AA tell me that I can submit my car to them for inspection & if it passes, they can register the car as being of historical importance & it then becomes free of road tax again. 

I haven't done that yet because I'm waiting to find time to do a couple of small jobs to the vehicle before I submit it. 

FWIW, the road tax amount is based on engine size & emissions. If I'd known that before I left RSA, I'd have fitted the car with a catalytic converter & had an LPG conversion done. If I'd found out after I arrived, I'd have had a cat fitted before the emissions test, but no-one, including my fidiot agent, told me that....... consequently, I had to pay the very highest band of road tax which is a tad over E773 a year.

Also FWIW, my car has the 5.9 litre AMC360 V8 engine in it. 

They also made me take off my sidepipes and replace them with a standard system...... I still haven't been able to find out if ALL sidepipe systems are banned here or if mine was just too noisy...... and I have to admit, they were helluva noisy. 

If I can't find out what is and isn't legal, I'll (at some point) cut them open, put in full length (quieter) baffles and put them back on the car and wait to see what happens.

So in short, you should be able to get your car in duty free (assuming it's been registered to you for sufficient time) but they will catch you on road tax..... However, if you fit a cat, it should reduce the amount of road tax they do catch you for. 

I think bikes have the same rules as cars BUT as I understand it, they only allow one vehicle per person to come in tax free. 

Good luck!


----------



## oronero

Thanks for that feedback, I thought that I had read somewhere that vehicles of historical importance or with a competition pedigree where exempt from import tax.

If that is the case then I will save the personal import allowance for one of the other vehicles that I have.

The motorcycles are are all homologation specials or race bikes, so perhaps they also can be exempt...I must get in contact with the Portuguese Ducati club to find out some more.


----------



## canoeman

I'm not certain that the conversion would help as you might find car is no longer a "Classsic" equally theres no reduction in road tax for a GPL car and believe emmisions are taken from specs not the IPO tests


----------



## travelling-man

My car had to go through the inspection, including an emissions test on tickover & then a separate loooong emissions test on a rolling road at (if I remember correctly) 120 kph.

They noted those readings & it was on them & engine size that the tax figure was set and certainly a catalytic converter would have reduced the emissions.

I'm not sure if the gas conversion would affect the classic classification or not but assuming it wouldn't affect the classification, it'd certainly reduce the emissions.


----------



## canoeman

Every car I've owned here well the ones requiring IPO's all have had emmission tests as you say but that's to check their within parameters and not used to set the tax rate, if you look at banding the co2 emissions are linked to cc but if the engine size is + 2500m3 then your in top band, regardless of emissions
Tabela Imposto Único Circulação (IUC) 2011 - Tabela Imposto Único de Circulação - Imposto Sobre Veículos e Imposto Único de Circulação

GPL conversion would help your pocket but not affect road tax

It's getting the Classic Car acceptance that would, I have the feeling that although you imported as a "Classic" customs might have but IMTT certainly haven't and I would make your agent check how he actually handled registration.

This is notes from CPAA Portugals Historic Car Club on modifications, which I think would negate any chance of "classic" status *if you did *conversion before test.

_"Modifications

Any modification, alteration or change should be avoided. 
If necessary will be made ​​in the spirit of the age where the vehicle is normally used in such a way that the vehicle can be reconverted to its original condition, with the least possible effort and cost.

The modifications or changes must, in principle, limited to only those required by the authorities to fulfill strict Code of Roads, or inability to find the proper parts in the market. 
Or its manufacture only be possible with unreasonable costs.

All modifications or changes must be documented so that future owners can know what the differences that the vehicle has in relation to its original condition. "_


----------



## travelling-man

The little I know about it is what I was told by the guys doing the matriculation vehicle test and they told me the high speed rolling road emissions test is the one they use for the road tax assessment.... As a GPL converted engine burns cleaner, (as does an engine fitted with a cat) the emissions would be lower but in my particular case, I suspect the 5.9 litre engine would have been the heaviest factor. - I'd still have liked to have the chance to try though and feel my agent should have had that knowledge and passed it onto me. 

I'm told the annual emissions test is on tickover and as you say, just to check the engine is still within the parameters of pass or fail but again, even if the engine isn't allowed to run on GPL for that, a cat could make all the difference. 

As for classic classification & GPL, I haven't looked into that at all but if nothing else, the GPL would probably give me a larger saving than the road tax exemption and assuming that's correct, the fuel savings from the GPL would be the deciding factor for me....... I usually try to keep the car as standard as possible but would prefer to be able to afford to use it as a daily driver than keep it parked in the barn and only take it out for high days & holidays. 

I would however, try to find a way to avoid cutting a hole in the bodywork for the filler so the conversion could be removed without leaving any sign of it ever having been there in the first place.


----------



## canoeman

Regardless your engine is +2500cc so whatever you do a 5.9ltr engine will always be in top band, you could only drop a band if* below* 2500cc and emissions between 180-25g/km

It's toss up for risking extra cost of car being accepted as a Classic or converting for cheaper running cost of GPL and accepting IUC

Try the simulator and see how IUC compares on that Simulador online ISV/IUC importados usados - Imposto Sobre Veículos e Imposto Único de Circulação


----------



## travelling-man

My translator program works on the page but not on the calculator but from what I can read (and PLEASE DO correct me if I'm wrong), it seems to calculate import tax & VAT? 

I've already got the car imported free of import tax & VAT and am now wanting to reduce the annual road tax from E773 to as close to zero as possible. 

I rather got diverted from this quest when Susan got sick and had to go to hospital but will contact ACP again and ask if they can give me some advice as well.


----------



## canoeman

Yes, it does and I understand you imported free of ISV but the Simulator as an extra also shows IUC at bottom. IUC would be the same whether free ISV or not.

I've never come across a IUC simulator because it's a very cut and dried process, engine size, emissions and *year of registration* being the major factors. 

I would think as well as ACP for advice it is worthwhile getting the agent to check how he or Customs have imported it, whether as a "Classic" or ISV free because you owned it etc for the required time, if they indeed ratified (not sure if there should be specific forms/ documents for this) import as a "Classic" then it strengthens your argument for different IUC, my feeling with comments you've made about agent he probably didn't know or realize there's any difference and it's been imported as an ordinary vehicle, which is why you've got top band of IUC and paid extra to have a non standard number plate.

But then IMTT base all IUC *on year of Portuguese Registration * and getting passed that hurdle well good luck


----------



## oronero

Canoeman and Travelling-man, I have gleaned much information from your last few posts...thanks.


----------



## travelling-man

FWIW, I'm hoping to be able to import a mid 60s Merc SL190 next year so it should fit into the lower tax (both import & road) catagories & will report back on how that goes if/when it happens.

I'll be using a different agent to handle the matriculation process though! LOL


----------



## canoeman

I had 3.5 classics under restoration when we moved, I ended up selling them, because I couldn't find a way around the bureaucratic jungle of not being able to MOT/IPO them and therefore not being able to supply a IPO passed certificate needed to matriculate


----------



## travelling-man

sorry to hear that....... I'll be importing from RSA and am glad to say that getting all the relevant the paperwork from there is an absolute doddle. 

I even know all the people involved in the various issuing procedures etc so don't even have to wait in line to get anything done!


----------



## canoeman

Try the simulator and see what figure's it will come up with as a personal import it won't be ISV free, for a combination of reasons and there's still the question whether a mid 60s Merc SL190 would qualify for "free ISV" import, the ACP site info on importing has been under re-construction for ages now so maybe there having problems with Customs & IMTT getting answers


----------



## travelling-man

I can't understand the (Portuguese) calculator I'm afraid but FWIW, After a number of meetings & conversations with Customs it seems that: 

Taxes depend on engine size but Pre-1970 LHD cars of less than 2000 cc (seem to) offer the best deal as far as taxes are concerned. If imported for commercial sale one can import and sell immediately as long as all taxes are paid and matriculation is completed.

With Pre-1970 LHD cars of less than 2000 cc (and for the price (E10K) I'm looking at) one has to pay the following taxes:

E4705 + 10% of the purchase price + 23% IVA of the that total.

Assuming what customs have told me is correct, I can buy for about E10K, pay the taxes of E5705 + IVA + matriculation fees of something in the region of E600 and should I decide to sell, it'd still give me a bit of a profit...... That said, I'd be inclined to keep & drive the car if I can afford to.

Please feel free to tell me if I've missed something or I'm wrong?

I'd like to think they'd let it in tax free but I can't see that happening!


----------



## canoeman

Using Financas simulator Portal das Finanças 
*ISV *comes out at this, then of course you have transport, matriculation to add, and the IUC at year of registration which currently looks about 321€ (110.34 + 169.18 x 1.15)

plus the killer* IVA*
_"Vehicles coming from a third country 
in the case of transport come from a third country, new or used, are always subject to VAT on a tax base consisting of the customs value of the vehicle (transaction value added costs of freight and insurance), customs duties and other charges payable upon importation, namely, the ISV. (Article 17 of the VAT Code)."_ which could add min €2,515.59

I'm not saying my figures are totally accurate or the IVA (but that is the definition), think you have some serious checking at this end so there's no nasty surprises

Country of Origin Third Country
Vehicle Type Passenger car or passenger car mixed use. (Table A)
State Vehicle Used
1st Registration Date <= 2001
Cylinder 1897 cm3
CO2 204 g / km
Type of Fuel gasoline

Formula for calculating the ISV

Tax Calculated (cm3)	€ 8,650.32
Plot to kill (cm3)	€ 5,212.59
Reduction years of use (%)	0%
Amount of ISV (cm3)	€ 3,437.73
Calculated Tax (CO2)	€ 29,251.56
Plot to kill (CO2)	€ 23,321.94
Reduction years of use (%)	0%
Amount of ISV (CO2)	€ 5,929.62
Amount of ISV (cm3 + CO2)	€ 9,367.35
Worsening Particles - For diesel vehicles	€ 0.00
Vehicle Tax (ISV)	€ 9,367.35


Fórmula de cálculo do ISV

Imposto Calculado (cm3)	8.650,32€
Parcela a abater (cm3)	5.212,59€
Redução por anos de uso (%)	0%
Montante de ISV (cm3)	3.437,73€
Imposto Calculado (CO2)	29.251,56€
Parcela a abater (CO2)	23.321,94€
Redução por anos de uso (%)	0%
Montante de ISV (CO2)	5.929,62€
Montante de ISV (cm3 + CO2)	9.367,35€
Agravamento Particulas - Para veículos a gasóleo	0,00€
Imposto Sobre Veículos (ISV)	9.367,35€


----------



## oronero

There is an interesting article on importing classic cars to Portugal on the 'Angloinfo' site, just search out the Portugal section and type classic car into the search facility.

It appears that they do not have to meet Portuguese rules for modification provided that they are over 30 years old. They also give details of the Portuguese historic car club which may be helpful and how to contact them. (Clube Português de Automóveis Antigos)


----------



## oronero

To be honest, I have been looking at the cost of classic cars in Portugal and comparing them to UK prices and I have come to the following conclusion.

Unless you actually already own a vehicle and it is immaculate and rust free or with a significant history, there appears to be little real saving to be had over buying the equivalent if it has already been sold in Portugal and is likely to be found.

My reasons for saying this is that after having looked at Portuguese web sites for classic car classified listings, both 'OLX' and specialist Portuguese sites, and comparing the prices there is very little in it.

You need to remember that Portuguese cars if they have been looked after to the same level as the English cars are more rust free, though they can be suffering the ravages of UV light on things such as paintwork and trim.

The cost of restoring a UK car, following its purchase, so that it is rust free and re-paint far out strips the cost of the same car if it were to be purchased in Portugal.

As an example a UK TR7 convertible can be bought in the UK for £1500-3000, though nice examples are another £1500-2000 above the highest value already given...a Portuguese example can be had for around 6,500 euros.

Pre 1973 911 Porsche models (2.2 or 2.4) cost over £15,000 in the UK and good ones are selling for double that. In Portugal a similar spec VGC one can be had for 35,000 Euros, again not too dissimilar price to the UK equivalent.

About 25 years ago I was involved in classic car restoration, up until about 10 years ago when I switched to manufacturing motorcycles components and still have close friends actively running restoration companies. The cost of restoring a UK vehicle is akin to messing around with boats and the costs can outrun the value of a car with ease. Most UK classics are rot-boxes, certainly at the lower end of the market for each model, when you compare the cost of the top-end models of each marque in the UK, the differences between Portugal and the UK seem insignificant...just my opinion.

Saying that I still wish to import my TR7 V8 rally car...sentimentality, what a burden!


----------



## travelling-man

That info might be out of date.... I even had a letter from my Jeep agent in RSA saying my sidepipes were an acceptable replacement for the original, factory system but they made me take the little beauties off & replace them with a standard system.

I'll contact the Clube Português de Automóveis Antigos & see what happens though... Thanks for the tip.


----------



## canoeman

Info on Anglo site is from ACP and it's the import section that is under construction which puts a question mark against Anglo's current information.

Sidepipes might be an acceptable replacement for originals but if they failed noise test! 

Overall I'd agree with oronero but I'd have still liked to have brought my projects with me he'd have little trouble bringing a TR7 from UK in, the sensible thing would be a ISV free import on the dearest and personal import on the bike which is far cheaper to import and no IVA with EU imports


----------



## travelling-man

I REALLY sympathise with you about being able to bring them over with you!


----------

