# Still undecided!!!!



## WhenweB (Jan 23, 2012)

Well its been a year since I returned to England from my holiday in Cape Town (where I was born) with my British husband and 9 year old daughter and we have still not made a decision about moving back to SA.

Initially we were adament that we wanted to return but once out of SA and in UK I started to stress about crime and education and finding jobs. My husband is very high up working in a good company (project manager / engineer) in UK so giving up his job to go to SA was a major problem. He is a white British man in his mid 40s who would probably have had problems due to the affirmative action laws... perhaps not though. I had contacted the company I worked for in insurance before leaving Cape Town 14 years ago but they had just been taken over by another large broker and had no positions available. I could, however do childminding as I am qualified in that too. 

Suffice to say that apart from sorting out my SA passport in my married name we have not actually got any further with our move.

I was wondering if anyone on this site has moved from UK to SA (Cape Town) within the last year and what their experience has been like please. Am I worrying unnecessarily or have my concerns been justified. 

If we move to Cape Town we would be living in the Milnerton / Table View area with my daughter attending the private school in Blouberg or we would be living in the Southern Suburbs with my daughter attending Wynberg Girls School where I was for 5 years. Wynberg Girls High have just had their 22nd year of 100% Matric Pass rate so my mother's opinion that education standards are dropping seems a bit out of sinc with that!

Looking forward to hearing your experience and any advice you could give.

Thanks and happy new year to you.

:ranger:


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## lavidarachel (Dec 26, 2012)

Hi,


I can't answer your questions now, but in 2 weeks we are moving from the UK to JHB as my partner has an engineering job there (power stations). We've been to SA twice before, though always Cape Town, and we have friends in Delft (from the first time we visited). If there's any info I can give you once we are there, I'd be more than happy to.

Rachel x

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## DannyBoy (Apr 29, 2009)

It's a real shame that the South Africans who go back, don't post on this blog how things are for them once they got back. One or two people post a week or two after getting back about how "wonderful" it is to be back in the "land of milk and honey", but then you never hear from them again.

I was also surprised that a lot of the companies I had worked for whilst in S.A, had either disappeared competely, or also been taken over by other companies.
The Cape Town job market does not look very promising though, in my opinion.


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## lavidarachel (Dec 26, 2012)

My other half said it would be much harder for him to get a job in CT. For this one he was approached through LinkedIn, and is employed by a US company who are contracted to carry out work by Eskom. Of all the job sites we looked at, every one seemed to have engineer posts more than anything else.

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## Jem62 (Jul 25, 2012)

I returned to CT 2years ago after 20+ years in the UK - the quality of life is quite amazing, enhanced by beautiful weather. I can't still get over the novelty of driving down the road to visit my family, to be able to hang out with people whom I love and who love me is deeply emotionally rewarding, nothing can compare with it or replace it. As far as your daughter is concerned, you would have to earn a great deal of money in the UK to afford the quality of education available at Wynberg Girls. I speak as one who has trained prospective school heads in the UK. A close friend of mine who was the Chief Civil Engineer as Lambeth Council was headhunted by the City of Cape Town, afer nine years, he is back in CT and loving it. South Africa is an emerging economy, there are opportunities to self start if you are so inclined, plus our democracy is showing increasing signs of maturity, don't take too much note of the 'nosedive' crowd who see only the negative in SA. 

There are no guarantees, this is a leap worth taking, the rewards are very worthwhile, don't talk yourself out of precious years with your family.


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## LegalMan (Dec 26, 2012)

I cannot comment much since I am biased towards moving to South Africa. However, Jem62 above has very valid points, and this part is definitely true:



> There are no guarantees, this is a leap worth taking, the rewards are very worthwhile, don't talk yourself out of precious years with your family.


The fact remains that the pass rate, crime rate, standard of living, your chances of getting a job and so many other things all depend on the exact suburb you live in and the exact attitude you have, not the town or city, and not the attitudes of others.

Cape Town is a lovely place to stay, and actually, so are most cities in South Africa. It's a wonderful place. If you are committed, and have your goals and dreams set on SA, you'll find that job, live a good life and enjoy things that you can't get anywhere else.


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## WhenweB (Jan 23, 2012)

Thanks everyone. Rachel I hope all goes well for you in Jhb. I lived there for one year in 1992 and would never go back but I lived in Braamfontein near the centre and it was a hellhole. Sounds as though you will be in the better suburbs and a friend of mine who moved from Cape Town to Jhb loves it there. Horses for courses. My husband is on linkedin so hopefully he too will be headhunted. He has Prince2 project management qualifications so can go into most sectors although mechanical engineering in the automotive / fastening systems is where his experience has been for the last 12 years.

All the comments about quality of life and family / friends are relevant and true.... thing is that my friends in UK are very good and I have a very strong network of local people whom I would really miss but I also have 3 very close long standing friends in Cape Town and my brother and aging mother (who is a worry as lives on her own an hour out of CT) so really torn. 

Anyway thank you for your comments - much appreciated. Will keep on pondering all the whys and wherefores and pros and cons and hopefully reach a decision soon!!!!


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## lavidarachel (Dec 26, 2012)

Forgot to add, if your husband wants to add mine on LinkedIn, they may be able to share contacts etc, and he can let him know of any opportunities.x

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## DannyBoy (Apr 29, 2009)

LegalMan said:


> The fact remains that the pass rate, crime rate, standard of living, your chances of getting a job and so many other things all depend on the exact suburb you live in and the exact attitude you have, not the town or city, and not the attitudes of others.


How would the "Suburb you stay in" determine whether you get a job or not?

Are you saying Skillset, Industry, AGE and BEE have nothing to do with finding a job?

What about all the 50 year old S.African males who left S.Africa and now live in Atlanta and Texas, because they were forced out of their job due to AGE and BEE.

What about the quotas at universities (including UCT) which prevents "previously advantaged" youngsters, from persuing their dreams?

Jem62 returned to S.Africa after 20 years in the UK, and only then discovered how wonderful it was to be near family. What was her reason for leaving S.Africa in the first place and what changed during that time period? It must have been tough living in the UK for 20 years if she was so unhappy.

There are other things to consider if you have children.
For instance the ongoing Road Carnage that occurs everytime there is a long weekend in S.Africa. Where else in the world do you read of 1400 people being killed on the road over the festive season?
Just from the blogs on this site alone I have become aware of falling education standards (even at Wynberg Girls), deteriorating medical services, strikes which prevent commuters from getting to work in the city (taxi strike blocking the highway), stones been thrown onto vehicle windscreens on the N2, and on and on.

BEE is a reality in S.Africa and what if the job you or your spouse gets "doesn't work out" (as Jem62 said..there are no guarantees).
I would do more investigating if I were you. Speak to other people who went back or who are leaving South Africa. It is very expensive to sell up everything, go back to S.Africa and then find that you want to go back to the U.K again because things are not all hunky-dory in S.A.

But who knows, if you live in the RIGHT SUBURB, maybe the road carnage, strikes, ANC corruption, lack of opportunity for the "previously advantaged", BEE, won't affect you at all.

I wish I knew what was the RIGHT SUBURB to stay in. I was planning to move back to S.Africa in April. I soon discovered why so many of my friends and associates had left their jobs and been forced to open a bed and breakfast in their house.
And it wasn't because they lived in the WRONG SUBURB.


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## lavidarachel (Dec 26, 2012)

Can I ask what BEE means?

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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

lavidarachel said:


> Can I ask what BEE means?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ExpatForum


 Black Economic Empowerment.


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## lavidarachel (Dec 26, 2012)

Johanna said:


> Black Economic Empowerment.


Thank you. x

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## LegalMan (Dec 26, 2012)

Hi DannyBoy

I've encountered numerous posts like yours online on many forums about South Africa. I have found that making only one more post after that is worth it. So here it is.

You totally took my sentence out of context. Of course living in a certain suburb does not make you more eligible for jobs. I meant this about crime. Most crimes in South Africa happen in poor suburbs. The second part is your attitude - and it's clear what yours is.

By the way, the USA had 33,808 road deaths last year. If I were you, I'd be far more concerned about my kid dying in another American school shoot-up.

Your post mentions only the negatives, not the facts, or the positives, or the reality. You have emigrated. You do not live in South Africa anymore. South Africans are tired of hearing only the negative, especially by the media.

Nevertheless, thank you for your reply post.

@lavidarachel - BEE means Black Economic Empowerment, which is DannyBoy's way of saying that white people don't have a chance at jobs, which is totally untrue.


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## SadiK (Jan 10, 2013)

lavidarachel said:


> Can I ask what BEE means?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ExpatForum



Black Economic Empowerment.
Im sure if you google you'll get more infor


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## lavidarachel (Dec 26, 2012)

Thanks all. Having been a few times in the past few years, it's quite clear that white people can get the jobs they choose. Unless they have desperate need to work as maids as people's houses for a few pounds a day - I only know of my black female friends that do that.

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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

lavidarachel said:


> Thanks all. Having been a few times in the past few years, it's quite clear that white people can get the jobs they choose. Unless they have desperate need to work as maids as people's houses for a few pounds a day - I only know of my black female friends that do that.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using ExpatForum


No, no , no

Please let us not make this a colour issue.

It is not true that white people can get the jobs they choose.

Jobs are really far and few between. Has nothing to do with colour.


If you are qualified for a specific job and in demand, you may get the job.

:focus:


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## LegalMan (Dec 26, 2012)

> If you are qualified for a specific job and in demand, you may get the job.


Totally agree.


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## lavidarachel (Dec 26, 2012)

I agree too - if you are qualified for a job, you gave a chance to get it - regardless of colour.

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## WhenweB (Jan 23, 2012)

Thanks for your comments everyone - very interesting. Thank you Rachel for your offer to help. I shall message you separately. Hope all goes well for you and please do keep us posted on how you get on and whether you think it was a good move or not (which you won't know for at least a year as it takes time to settle and adjust).

Anyway sounds to me as though I need to be doing more research (again) - I did see on a previous thread that someone had posted cost of living estimates which was useful. 

So for the time being I shall stay here in England and remain - as always - still undecided!


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## DannyBoy (Apr 29, 2009)

WhenweB said:


> So for the time being I shall stay here in England and remain - as always - still undecided!


I'm going thru this as well Whenwe.
I desperately want to go back to S.A, and I'm not getting any younger.
But So far, it looks like I will only be able to get Contract I.T work (like temp work) in S.A and I'm concerned that after my first contract I may sit around for ages waiting for another contract.

My network in S.A is all but gone. My mom is way to old to help me get back on my feet, most of the people I knew when I lived in S.A have immigrated or disappeared.
So it's a tough call.
I've been struggling with these emotions to go back for years. The fear factor is really large when you're not that young and single anymore.
Also the thought of not getting it together in S.A after selling up everything in the U.S and then having to leave S.A and come back to the U.S and start all over again is just too much to bear.'

I honestly just don't know what to do. 
I hear of the huge skills shortage of I.T people over there,...but the response I get from I.T recruiters is a whole different story.

It's a really tough decision and could end up costing you dearly if things don't work out.


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## LegalMan (Dec 26, 2012)

@DannyBoy

When I read your post, I really feel for you. I used to work in IT and Engineering recruitment, and we were trained to give all kinds of excuses to "regret" someone when they were not the perfect version of what our client wanted.

I think I now understand your frustration - it must be very hard trying to find a job, especially not being here in the country already.

Let me ask: Are you still a South African citizen? What are your skills in IT? I presume you will come with your wife - is she from the US?

We have helped people with similar concerns before, so there is hope in your situation.


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## Saartjie (Mar 1, 2010)

DannyBoy said:


> I'm going thru this as well Whenwe.
> I desperately want to go back to S.A, and I'm not getting any younger.
> But So far, it looks like I will only be able to get Contract I.T work (like temp work) in S.A and I'm concerned that after my first contract I may sit around for ages waiting for another contract.
> 
> ...


Your post makes me really sad. If a person wants to return to the country of their birth then they should be able to do so.

All I can say is that if you really want to come back I think what you could try, work wise that is, is to come here and look for work here (in person). We (my husband and I) had absolutely no luck in finding any employment in SA whilst we were in the UK. We contacted various recruiters but never got responses. Once we were here it was all much easier. Neither of us have had to use a recruitment company at all (I still find most of them very unhelpful) to get our jobs. We both invested a lot of time in finding our jobs ourselves, contacting companies directly through their websites (most large companies have their own recruitment process in any event). We both have jobs now that we really enjoy. So, dont lose hope in finding something. Maybe try to contact companies directly (via email or phone) rather than using recruitment companies. You may already have tried this and if so I apologise for suggesting something that you have already done.

If you are good at what you do, there is no reason for you not to be able to secure a position that you want.


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## rooineckrsa (Jan 10, 2013)

Hi lavidaracheal

Black Economic Empowerment.

Basically if you want trader with the larger companys or government, you must have a black majority owned shareholder,and you have to forfill quoters i.e majority black labour force, social responsabilty,bla bla bla. Check out on google

regards
mark


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## DannyBoy (Apr 29, 2009)

LegalMan said:


> @DannyBoy
> Let me ask: Are you still a South African citizen? What are your skills in IT? I presume you will come with your wife - is she from the US?
> 
> We have helped people with similar concerns before, so there is hope in your situation.


Yes I kept my S.A citizenship even after I accepted US citizenship.
I had to get a letter from the S.A embassy for this, which, I did. 
So I am still a S.A passport holder. 
Wife is no longer with me, due to my having to constantly move around the U.S for my job. She couldn't take the migrant-labour type existence anymore.
My skills are all Legacy Systems, with very large Fortune 500 companies (like Fannie Mae, BankBoston, Massachusetts Mutual, Blue Cross Blue Shield Insurance).
I have been consulting as a contractor since 1999. Prior to that I was a full time employee at BankBoston for 6 years and before that I worked at Safmarine, Old Mutual, Allied Bank in South Africa.

The few companies that did get back to me in S.A, said I was "over qualified and the companies in S.A couldn't afford me", if you can believe that nonsense.

One guy from Johannesburg said that he had sent my CV to a big bank and that they were processing my CV. That was 3 months ago.


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## DannyBoy (Apr 29, 2009)

*What Happened?*



LegalMan said:


> @DannyBoy
> 
> ........... We have helped people with similar concerns before, so there is hope in your situation.


LegalMan, What Happened?

I thought you were going to give me help or advice about getting a job ?
Did I say something I shouldn't have said, am I too old to get a job there,
too "over qualified" or what ?


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## LegalMan (Dec 26, 2012)

Hi DannyBoy

I cannot find you a job, but can only give advice on what I see from others. My usual advice is that to find a job in South Africa, you have to be in South Africa.


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## WhenweB (Jan 23, 2012)

lavidarachel said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> I can't answer your questions now, but in 2 weeks we are moving from the UK to JHB as my partner has an engineering job there (power stations). We've been to SA twice before, though always Cape Town, and we have friends in Delft (from the first time we visited). If there's any info I can give you once we are there, I'd be more than happy to.
> ...


Hi Rachel - was just wondering how you have got on in SA. I do hope all is well and that you and your family have settled in okay. 

Kind regards
Brenda


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## Wantstogohome (Apr 22, 2013)

Sorry, I am gate crashing on your forum but found all your opinions very helpful. 
After 10 years in the UK my family and I have decided to move back to SA in a few months time. My husband has been looking for a job for over a year now and although he had some good replies, most companies won't even look at his CV as he is not "in" SA at the moment. 

So after great deliberation my husband said he is not getting anywhere so we will have to pack up here and just go (something he refused to do for many years as it's too risky if you have a family of 5 to look after). We do have the advantage of having big families in Cape Town who can house and feed us if necessary till he finds a job so thank goodness for that!

Hoping its so easy to find a job if you are in SA...we are aiming for Cape Town as that is where our families are but not that much work and lower salaries?

Thanks


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## Africaorbust (Apr 24, 2013)

Hello, new member first time poster.
My husband and I are both English but he grew up in South Africa (his father was in the SA navy) and is longing to go back believing we will have a better life in SA. We can not move for another 3 years due to work commitments , but he's already looking at houses.

We are looking at moving to the cape as he grew up in kommijie (did I spell that right). We have a 7 and 2 year old. I'm nervous about schools, meeting people and jobs. Neither of us would have family but he is in touch with old friends. I'm not looking for replies telling me life will be amazing or that nothing could go wrong, I'm just wanting to know of other people's experiences.

Many thanks.


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## Saartjie (Mar 1, 2010)

Wantstogohome said:


> Sorry, I am gate crashing on your forum but found all your opinions very helpful.
> After 10 years in the UK my family and I have decided to move back to SA in a few months time. My husband has been looking for a job for over a year now and although he had some good replies, most companies won't even look at his CV as he is not "in" SA at the moment.
> 
> So after great deliberation my husband said he is not getting anywhere so we will have to pack up here and just go (something he refused to do for many years as it's too risky if you have a family of 5 to look after). We do have the advantage of having big families in Cape Town who can house and feed us if necessary till he finds a job so thank goodness for that!
> ...


Hi there. It depends a lot upon what kind of work your husband is looking for. I will say this, finding jobs in Cape Town can be very difficult. People tend therefore to chose Joburg instead as there are more work possibilities here and the salaries tend to be better. Joburg is not for everyone though so it is a decision people have to make.


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## DannyBoy (Apr 29, 2009)

*Someone told the truth for once*



Saartjie said:


> Hi there. It depends a lot upon what kind of work your husband is looking for. I will say this, finding jobs in Cape Town can be very difficult. People tend therefore to chose Joburg instead as there are more work possibilities here and the salaries tend to be better. Joburg is not for everyone though so it is a decision people have to make.


Hello Saartjie,
THANK YOU for being one of the very FEW people to tell the TRUTH about finding work in Cape Town.
I am originally from Cape Town and worked at Reader's Digest, CALTEX and Old Mutual.
I have been out of S.A for a LONG time and every time I have gone back to visit my mom in Cape Town, I have gone to see Job recruiters.
They see me face-to-face and promise to "get back to me",.....they never do.

On top of that, many of the guys I worked with in I.T (at the already mentioned companies) were given an "early retirement" so that the companies could bring in new recruits and meet their BEE quotas.
I have this straight from the guys who lost their jobs in CAPE TOWN. I am only referring to CAPE TOWN at this time.
Many of these guys opened bed and breakfast rooms in their houses to survive after the company retirement package had been used up.
It's tough in CAPE TOWN.

For the folks from England heading to Cape Town, the older you are the harder it is to find work, especially if you LOOK old. 
I would even go so far as to remove the older jobs on your resume, so that you just list the jobs/skills from the last 10 years. 
Codgers like me stand NO CHANCE. TRUST ME, I have tried.
My skills are in demand in America, but not in Cape Town due to government quota requirements.

For anyone who disputes this, I was in Cape Town this February and in April last year. And what shocked me was how many middle aged, middle class "white" men were standing outside Checkers and Pick & Pay asking people to "help them out".
These men were clearly not hobo's (they were dressed in their good work clothes), but were down on their luck due to the policies of the ANC governement. I saw this in Cape Town at the Pick & Pay in the Gardens, and in Plumstead at Quicksave and at Checkers in Meadowridge. Guys who were previously managers, who had been laid off from the large corporate companies.

Cape Town is a beautiful place, I agree. But the Job Market is BRUTAL. And you're competing against more than just folks with the same skills as you, because there is a "political agenda" that the Corporations have to comply with.

I kinda gave up looking in Cape Town after that. It's no good beating your head against a brick wall.
Beware of the super enthusiastic types who tell you that what I said is not true.
THEY ALREADY HAVE A GOOD JOB. So life for them is pure bliss and they don't feel your pain.


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## MissGlobal (Aug 4, 2012)

I just want to add - I've never known Cape Town to have a good job market. There are fewer joba and lower paying jobs out here. However that has always been the case in Cape Town. You will hear people say - the money is in Jo'burg. That being said - I find most beach towns to suck for professional careers but be great for the service industry.

I've met plenty of white people suffering but also plenty who are succeeding just fine. I recently interviewed with a company where the owner ( white afrikaaner ) basically said "We white South Africans have had a leg up for hundreds of years. I know people complain but it's because they never had to truly compete. There are tons of opportunities that are simply not available to us because we are not a BEE company - so we have learned to adapt. If you are good at what you do - you will succeed no matter what the climate. The difference now is that we don't get preferential treatment. "

I'm not saying this is right or wrong - but I wanted to share perhaps another perspective. I'm not commending the ANC because I had my issues with them too - but things have changed and the system favors a different group now. That will always breed animosity


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## LegalMan (Dec 26, 2012)

It's funny, and it's simple. I've worked in recruitment in senior positions and now in immigration law as well. And I see the same complaints time and time again.

*If you are skilled, you get a job.* It doesn't matter:

- If you are white or black or purple,
- if you are old or young (or _look_ old or young),
- if you are in Cape Town or Johannesburg or even Bloemfontein, or
- if you are male or female.

This is simply because any business owner or senior manager needs to hire *skills*. Not your age, colour or location. They need your skills. In recruitment, I placed so many 60 year old men, so many white people and so many foreigners in jobs because they had the right skills.

Like MissGlobal says in her comment above: *"...learn to adapt..."*. Those people begging didn't. If a company has all staff around 25 years of age, culture fit dictates you don't stand a good chance if you're 60, regardless what the law says about discrimination. If C# and .Net programmers are in demand and you program in Delphi and Informix, you're going to struggle. So find a way to adapt and stay in the game. This goes for everyone.

As for salaries, usually Cape Town and Johannesburg have surveys done, and these always show the same thing, and average of 5-7% more money in Johannesburg. 

Lastly, another thing people who hire are looking for is your *attitude*. Enough said.

Good luck all!


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

LegalMan said:


> Lastly, another thing people who hire are looking for is your *attitude*. Enough said.
> 
> Good luck all!


 :clap2:


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## DannyBoy (Apr 29, 2009)

Most of those guys were in there 40's and if you read my post they were not in I.T but had been in management positions. I spoke to about 5 of them and there attitudes were pretty good thank you very much.

They were layed off because of one thing and one thing only. The ANC has enforced BEE quotas that the firms have to abide by.

End Of Story.


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## Saartjie (Mar 1, 2010)

BBBEE is only compulsory for a limited amout of entities in SA. Yes in certain industries it may be to your advantage to have a BBBEE rating as you will get more business and if you deal with the government then a BBBEE rating is a must. Private companies do not have to have BBBEE, it is a choice that they make (maybe a choice they have to make to stay in business) so if a company decides to retrench people because they are white (or not black) then that is the company's choice to do so but they have not been forced to do so.

I am certainly not in any way agreeing with BBBEE. It is something that has been put in place to rectify the past. In theory it may have been a good idea but in reality it does not work. People should be given jobs because of their skills, attitude etc, not because of the colour of their skin. 

Still, I have not experienced that white people cannot get work here, especially in Johannesburg. We had a restrucuring at my work some time ago and several people were affected but all of those who had to go (90% were white, male and over 40) walked into new jobs straight away.

So I agree with what Legal Man stated above. If you've got the qualifications or skills and the right attitude there is work to be found. You may not get exactly what you want but adaptation and versatility is the key to success in SA.


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## DannyBoy (Apr 29, 2009)

Saartjie said:


> BBBEE is only compulsory for a limited amout of entities in SA. Yes in certain industries it may be to your advantage to have a BBBEE rating as you will get more business and if you deal with the government then a BBBEE rating is a must. Private companies do not have to have BBBEE, it is a choice that they make (maybe a choice they have to make to stay in business) so if a company decides to retrench people because they are white (or not black) then that is the company's choice to do so but they have not been forced to do so.
> 
> I am certainly not in any way agreeing with BBBEE. It is something that has been put in place to rectify the past. In theory it may have been a good idea but in reality it does not work. People should be given jobs because of their skills, attitude etc, not because of the colour of their skin.
> 
> ...



WOW Saartjie, it sounds like a fantastic country,....like UTOPIA almost.
I wonder why so many people are leaving though?

There's a HUGE and growing S.African community in Texas, in Atlanta, in Southern California. WHY IS THAT ?


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## Saartjie (Mar 1, 2010)

DannyBoy said:


> WOW Saartjie, it sounds like a fantastic country,....like UTOPIA almost.
> I wonder why so many people are leaving though?
> 
> There's a HUGE and growing S.African community in Texas, in Atlanta, in Southern California. WHY IS THAT ?


Seriously, is this what you got from my post? That is just sad.


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## DannyBoy (Apr 29, 2009)

Saartjie said:


> Seriously, is this what you got from my post? That is just sad.


I was talking about people that had been layed off in Cape Town. I specifically mentioned them standing outside stores in Cape Towns Garden Center, Plumstead and Meadowridge.

You went off on a Tangent and stated yakking about Johannesburg.
I was responding to a posting for someone who was trying to move to CAPE TOWN from the UK.
Which part of "CAPE TOWN" didn't you understand?


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

DannyBoy said:


> I was talking about people that had been layed off in Cape Town. I specifically mentioned them standing outside stores in Cape Towns Garden Center, Plumstead and Meadowridge.
> 
> You went off on a Tangent and stated yakking about Johannesburg.
> I was responding to a posting for someone who was trying to move to CAPE TOWN from the UK.
> Which part of "CAPE TOWN" didn't you understand?


DannyBoy, I honestly think you are a little out of order here.
Saartjie mentioned facts and nothing else.


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## Saartjie (Mar 1, 2010)

DannyBoy said:


> I was talking about people that had been layed off in Cape Town. I specifically mentioned them standing outside stores in Cape Towns Garden Center, Plumstead and Meadowridge.
> 
> You went off on a Tangent and stated yakking about Johannesburg.
> I was responding to a posting for someone who was trying to move to CAPE TOWN from the UK.
> Which part of "CAPE TOWN" didn't you understand?


I was under the impression that this was an open conversation. I did not specifically respond to your quote (hence I did not include your quote in my post). I was merely setting out the facts as I have experienced them and I do not understand why you are getting so defensive and rude.

As for 'yakking about Johannesburg', I only write about things that I have knowledge of so it was stated as a comparison and not trying to paint a Utopia or whatever you want to call it.

I think your response is rather out of order.


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## LegalMan (Dec 26, 2012)

DannyBoy said:


> WOW Saartjie, it sounds like a fantastic country,....like UTOPIA almost.
> I wonder why so many people are leaving though?
> 
> There's a HUGE and growing S.African community in Texas, in Atlanta, in Southern California. WHY IS THAT ?


The net migration rate for South Africa is positive, meaning that more people are entering than leaving. Many people leave, more people enter.


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## concord (Jan 9, 2012)

LegalMan said:


> The net migration rate for South Africa is positive, meaning that more people are entering than leaving. Many people leave, more people enter.


 It doesn't prove anything, LegalMan. We were discussing whether it's easy/possible to find jobs for WHITES. The migration rate could be positive because of people coming from Zimbabwe, Kongo, Nigeria etc. Plus it was mentioned above that lots of people come to SA to retire so apparently they don't have a mission to obtain a job. With the recent exchange rate and pension in euros (pounds) they can live like kings. 

I honestly think this arguement is quite pointless because people believe in what they believe.


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## Jem62 (Jul 25, 2012)

I moved back to CT in my late forties, I knew that I had to arrive with an idea of how to create a job for myself and I am black. I knew that I had no chance of getting a job, not having filmstar looks (anymore!), the same would be true if I returned to the UK tomorrow. However, SA has more opportunities. Every business will tell you that they have a skill shortage as confirmed in an edition of this past weeks Cape Argus. I spotted a gap in the market in my area and persisted, I now have enough clients to keep me busy for a long time. I am hoping that Investment Analyst in London know what they are talking about when they keep saying Africa is now the place in which to invest. They point out that if you want to manifacture high end goods for the fast growing African middle class, the best place to do it is in SA notably Gauteng and the WC. By the way CT has just been announced as call centre destination of the year, we take calls for companies such as British Telecom and Amazon. Not great you may say, but signs of confidence in our future. It's all about perception folks, if you want to see the negative all the time, no one can stop you, there are loads more positives in CT than negatives.


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## LegalMan (Dec 26, 2012)

concord said:


> It doesn't prove anything, LegalMan. We were discussing whether it's easy/possible to find jobs for WHITES. The migration rate could be positive because of people coming from Zimbabwe, Kongo, Nigeria etc. Plus it was mentioned above that lots of people come to SA to retire so apparently they don't have a mission to obtain a job. With the recent exchange rate and pension in euros (pounds) they can live like kings.
> 
> I honestly think this arguement is quite pointless because people believe in what they believe.


True, it doesn't prove who the immigrants are, but it was important to mention. That stat excludes Africans immigrating to South Africa.

The argument is pointless in my opinion too, because as I say, if you have skills that are in demand, the rest, especially race, doesn't matter.


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## lavidarachel (Dec 26, 2012)

MissGlobal said:


> I just want to add - I've never known Cape Town to have a good job market. There are fewer joba and lower paying jobs out here. However that has always been the case in Cape Town. You will hear people say - the money is in Jo'burg. That being said - I find most beach towns to suck for professional careers but be great for the service industry.
> 
> I've met plenty of white people suffering but also plenty who are succeeding just fine. I recently interviewed with a company where the owner ( white afrikaaner ) basically said "We white South Africans have had a leg up for hundreds of years. I know people complain but it's because they never had to truly compete. There are tons of opportunities that are simply not available to us because we are not a BEE company - so we have learned to adapt. If you are good at what you do - you will succeed no matter what the climate. The difference now is that we don't get preferential treatment. "
> 
> I'm not saying this is right or wrong - but I wanted to share perhaps another perspective. I'm not commending the ANC because I had my issues with them too - but things have changed and the system favors a different group now. That will always breed animosity


Just to add to that - in the UK the job market at seaside towns is always abysmal - so it would be no different elsewhere I should imagine.


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## DannyBoy (Apr 29, 2009)

LegalMan said:


> True, it doesn't prove who the immigrants are, but it was important to mention. That stat excludes Africans immigrating to South Africa.
> 
> The argument is pointless in my opinion too, because as I say, if you have skills that are in demand, the rest, especially race, doesn't matter.


As far as low unemployment amongst the whites and having the "Right Attitude" to find a job goes, many whites are not on the Governments unemployment statistics as they do not claim benefits from the government. Driving around many white areas, you notice their old, decrepit cars, lack of maintenance to their properties and other signs of economic distress.

Go to any five-star hotel now and you will find blacks sitting around in designer clothes. The only whites there are foreign tourists. Most cars costing R1 million and more that I saw in Johannesburg were owned by blacks, not whites. Blacks get all the lucrative corporate directorships and make easy money as "tenderpreneurs" to the state and municipalities.

There are MANY, MANY "whites" who literally had to leave the country to find jobs, in the Middle and Far East where they do dysmal work as part-time English teachers or pack groceries in Australian supermarkets.

Many small businesses started by whites have failed, not least because of the racial laws and regulations imposed by government and the corporate sector. The corporate sector - banks and large companies - are now arguably more anti-white than government. They do not trade with white-owned businesses and generally sue or harass small businesses at the drop of a hat. Many whites have lost their homes which the banks require them to pledge as collateral for a simple overdraft for their small businesses.

More whites now live in so-called "informal housing" than at any time since the Great Depression. Solidarity estimates that up to 800 000 whites - educated, literate and previously taxpayers - now live in squatter camps and other "informal areas".

There's a lot more to it than having the Right Attitude or right skills. 
Be that as it may this forum did help me make the decision NOT to return to South Africa. 
My objective now is to get the money I still have in S.A out and finally cut all ties with the country I was born in and once loved.
The first thing to go will be my S.African dual citizenship.
'Nuff Said.


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## LegalMan (Dec 26, 2012)

DannyBoy - I've gone through your post and struggle to find even one true sentence. Most of the "facts" you wrote are utter rubbish.

From other posts I see you are an IT expert, mainly a COBOL expert, but in SA these jobs are rare, and the technology is not used as much by companies here as it was in the past. It really does have to do with skills. But I suppose telling you this doesn't help, you're just out to prove a point.

So stop slating SA and whites and blacks and just focus on finding a job. Otherwise, logically, as you say, it might not be best to immigrate here.

Either way, I wish you all the best.


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

:focus::focus::focus::focus:


Please, let us stop "fighting"


We live in Africa and there are more black people in this country than white people and colour should not be the issue, rather whether the job can be done.



Peace people, otherwise I will have to close the thread!


:boxing::boxing::boxing:


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## concord (Jan 9, 2012)

Johanna, I promise I won't fight with anyone or be rude  I just couldn't help but comment as well.


LegalMan said:


> DannyBoy - I've gone through your post and struggle to find even one true sentence. Most of the "facts" you wrote are utter rubbish.


 I can't say that everything what DannyBoy mentioned is true but I can confirm from my side that you, LegalMan, is not completely right either. Some of the facts DannyBoy stated are NOT rubbish.
I know LOTS of my husband's friends who work in Dubai and Middle East right now. Besides every weekend I hear news from my mother-in-law about her NUMEROUS friends' kids (I can think of about 20 of them) who live in the UK, the USA, Australia, NZ etc. and they're doctors, engineers, lawyers, etc. etc.

So I don't really see how come they lack skills to find jobs in SA but they're good enough to get jobs in above mentioned countries?


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## concord (Jan 9, 2012)

Johanna, I promise I won't fight with anyone or be rude  I just couldn't help but comment as well.


LegalMan said:


> DannyBoy - I've gone through your post and struggle to find even one true sentence. Most of the "facts" you wrote are utter rubbish.


 I can't say that everything what DannyBoy mentioned is true but I can confirm from my side that you, LegalMan, is not completely right either. Some of the facts DannyBoy stated are NOT rubbish.
I know some of my husband's friends (about 10) who work in Dubai and Middle East right now. Besides every weekend I hear news from my mother-in-law about her NUMEROUS friends' kids (I can think of about 20 of them) who live in the UK, the USA, Australia, NZ etc. and they're doctors, engineers, lawyers, etc. etc.

So I don't really understand how is it possible that their skills are not in demand in SA but they're good enough to get jobs in above mentioned countries? (and here I remember a couple I personally know. They were working in Dubai but had to come back to SA when there was that bankrupt situation. The husband failed to find a job in the field of his degree so they bought a business so they could live. Guess what? They left for Dubai again because he found a fantastic position there! So tell me again how come that he's a loser here in SA but his skills were appreciated in another country?)


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## Saartjie (Mar 1, 2010)

LegalMan said:


> DannyBoy - I've gone through your post and struggle to find even one true sentence. Most of the "facts" you wrote are utter rubbish.
> 
> From other posts I see you are an IT expert, mainly a COBOL expert, but in SA these jobs are rare, and the technology is not used as much by companies here as it was in the past. It really does have to do with skills. But I suppose telling you this doesn't help, you're just out to prove a point.
> 
> ...


No need for further arguments on this. A South African who has taken the decisiont to leave the country for good will always have to justify their reasons for leaving. It is the same for anyone who has left the country of their birth, it may not have been something that you actually wanted to do but circumstances forced you to make the decision. However the decision was reached, everyone has their own reasons for leaving, good or bad. It is true that lots of white people have left SA because they cannot find jobs and it is true that they may have found jobs abroad which are much better and where their skills are more appreciated. BUT this has resulted in a skills shortage in this country which means that there are excellent opportunities for anyone with skills and the will to work. So for us who have chosen to stay or immigrate, this has created opportunities which in other circumstances would not have been available.


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## MissGlobal (Aug 4, 2012)

I tell you - as a dual citizen - I always chuckle inside when I hear the complaints people have about their home countries. And I'm biased - but I think South Africans complain a lot. We often romanticize life in other countries - as if it's just so much better there. Anyone's individual situation may change significantly if they move abroad ( for better or worse). 

Every election there are literally thousands of Americans claiming the USA is going to hell in a hand basket. They complain about jobs, the economy, crime, morals, and a whole laundry list of things. You hear this same rhetoric as in SA - they are going to move away where they can have a better life. The overwhelming majority don't. 

But the reality is - life is hard - no matter what part of the world you are in. Every place has its strengths and weaknesses. And life is what you make it. SA has its issues, the US has its issues - but I choose to take responsibility for my existence here. I am doing my best to make it here - as I did my best to make it there. We're expats here - our specialty is supposed to be adjusting and adapting to different environments. SA has challenges - but it is hardly the worst corner of the world to live. That goes for many places....


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## Varfield (Mar 12, 2013)

The really bitter South Africans who've left should stop hijacking these posts. I want to hear both sides, but some of the stuff posted is madness. A guy was beheaded in London today on a busy shopping street "in the name of Allah". If I had the same attitudes as these bitter old men, I'd be yelling about the beheading proving the UK is in total islamist induced anarchy. But, as I'm not bitter, I'm going to condemn the people who did it, pity the victim and his family, but I won't be using it as evidence that the UK is in total meltdown and no one can be happy here.

If people's lives are so good in their new country, then why don't you spend more time being happy in Vegas/Florida/Oz and less time making stuff up and ruining in otherwise helpful forums.


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