# Oh the joys of bureaucracy!!



## jon1 (Mar 18, 2012)

Rant Alert 

I just wanted to pass on my experience on getting my wife’s name changed on her IDs, passport and bank accounts.

The requirements for her name change on the passport are;

NSO Copy of Marriage Certificate (on their special “security” paper)
CFO Brief Certificate Fiancee, Spouses and Other Partners of Foreign Nationals | Commission on Filipinos Overseas


This process started in January after our wedding. We were told that we would have the NSO copy of our Marriage Certificate 30 days after it was filed locally. So 30 days after the filing date, my wife goes to the local NSO office in SM Mall Olongapo. The clerk there tells her that it won’t be in the system for 6-12 months!! She is then told that it has to be requested for the 30 day expedite at the local jurisdiction that the marriage was filed in. Unbelievable. The wife makes arrangements to go there as she had other pressing matters to attend to there (change name on bank account, driver’s license, etc.). Why does she have to do the name change in her hometown vs locally? Because the Subic bank wants to see the NSO copy of the marriage certificate as does the Olongapo LTO for her Driver’s license.

When she goes to the registrars office in her hometown, she pays the 400p for the expedite and is told that in 30 days she will be given a reference number for the marriage certificate and that she needs to return for that. She arranges for her cousin to get this and send to her. She then goes to the bank and LTO in her hometown and they change her name without issue using her “local Marriage certificate”. 

When she gets home to Subic, she gets her SBMA ID changed without issue. So now all that she has left is her Subic Bank account and the Passport. Before I left for my job, I left my wife a $4000 check for deposit in her married name. We were going to use that money towards a new roof on the house. She was reluctant to go back to the bank not wanting to be turned away again. I tell her to wave this check (money) in front of the bank manager’s face and to ask them “so you are telling me that you are turning away this money?”. Needless to say that they processed the request and now her account has been changed.

30 days later her cousin receives the info along with texting instructions on how to get the status of the application. So the 30 day “expedite” is just for a reference number. It will take only another 45 days for the status to go from “pending” to “processed”. She then proceeds to the same local NSO office and is told the same BS that she has to wait 6-12 months. My wife, using every bit of patience that she can muster, tells them that they are in error and to process the request. The clerk mutters that if it is not ready that the money spent on the request is non-refundable. The wife says that is fine and orders 2 copies at 150p each. She is then told that it will be ready in one week. A week later the wife presents her receipt and receives both of her NSO copies of the certificate.

Now she needs to obtain the CFO Brief Certificate. I arrange for her to go to Manila for this. You cannot make an appointment and they have only so many slots per briefing according to the nationality of the foreign spouse. For the US, they have 15 slots twice a day every day of the week. So no appointment = getting there before they open and stand in line “for a while”. For her to get there early she must leave Subic around 5am. She gets there around 8am and falls into the queues. When it is all said and done, it takes until almost 2pm for her to get her certificate (3 hour group brief plus a short individual brief and wait for the certificate to be printed). I had prepared her for the BS other forum members had experienced (crazy talk about foreign spouse sex habits, etc.). She actually received decent guidance and passed on info about how to have a successful marriage to a foreigner (good communication, common goals, etc.) and we were pleasantly surprised.

So now we have our final step; The passport. 

We arrive at the Marquee mall at 10am when the mall opens, where the DFA is located so that she can file the application. While she is doing this I do some shopping. An hour later we go to lunch while we wait for her turn in line. She left her application in the stack with the guard. After lunch she returns and still too many people ahead of her in line. 3 hours later, I tell her enough is enough. We leave all pissed. The next day she returns without me as I am not going to hang out in the mall for 5-6 hours just for her to drop off an application. She has to leave at 6:30am to get there by 7:30am (the guard told her that they accept the applications for the queue at 8:00am). When she gets there the line is already 50 or 60 people long. They take her application and now she has to hang out. It ends up taking her until 2pm to get her application accepted and processed. She is also told that to expedite her application it is 15 business days and ready for pickup on May 30th! When she got her passport there 2 years ago, the process was much more efficient and she was in and out in less than an hour. 

I just found out that you can now request online a copy of your NSO certificate https://www.ecensus.com.ph/Default.aspx . They also claim that your document will be delivered in 3-9 working days. Maybe this will be an easier process for someone in the future.

Overall it has been a frustrating experience for both of us. 

I know, I know, “it’s more fun in the Philippines”.


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## GWrobes (May 7, 2014)

Oh the memories of what I had to go thru in order to get that fiance visa on my passport (that also took forever to process). 

Im curious, when you applied for retirement visa, did u have to go thru all the hassles?


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## jon1 (Mar 18, 2012)

I can just imagine on the fiance visa. I know that is probably 10x more involved (medical exams, certifications, etc.).

I am on a tourist visa for now. When we take our next trip abroad, my wife is going to ask for a 13A visa on arrival. Then I just do the annual renewal for 300p. If that doesn't work, I will just do the tourist visa as I am between jobs right now.


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## JimnNila143 (Jul 23, 2013)

Oh the Memories!, Thanks...One of the things one must realize, especially in the Philippines, if one is in a hurry, especially a big hurry, hurry up and wait. Because it is hard for me to travel and not easy doing it, my sweet wife, for 4 years, could go to the PBI and take care of my annual ARC renewal, now that has changed, I have to be present. The first time my wife did the renewal, they wanted to delay it and even though she knows that big voicing a government worker is never the path to take, she did big voice, one time, one particular worker. They got my ARC done pronto.


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## JimnNila143 (Jul 23, 2013)

*Fiancee visa*



jon1 said:


> I can just imagine on the fiance visa. I know that is probably 10x more involved (medical exams, certifications, etc.).
> 
> I am on a tourist visa for now. When we take our next trip abroad, my wife is going to ask for a 13A visa on arrival. Then I just do the annual renewal for 300p. If that doesn't work, I will just do the tourist visa as I am between jobs right now.


For us, that was a trip, we had over 200 documents and then right in the middle of the process, we changed it to the marriage visa. I had one complete set, my wife had one complete set, actually, she had 3 sets, I had 5. A few times my wife was ready to quit and give up but I told her that we had to stay on the same page together for all of this.


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## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

JimnNila143 said:


> For us, that was a trip, we had over 200 documents and then right in the middle of the process, we changed it to the marriage visa. I had one complete set, my wife had one complete set, actually, she had 3 sets, I had 5. *A few times my wife was ready to quit and give* up but I told her that we had to stay on the same page together for all of this.


That seems a common Filipino trait. If something get difficult throw your arms in the air and give up. My wife's answer to anything that seems difficult is I'll go home where it's an easier life.


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## Asian Spirit (Mar 1, 2010)

Gary D said:


> That seems a common Filipino trait. If something get difficult throw your arms in the air and give up. My wife's answer to anything that seems difficult is I'll go home where it's an easier life.


I think this comes from being brought up to remain dependent on parents and other family members. It keeps people from really ever growing up and learning how to handle things and situations in life. Things that we learn at a very early age, the majority of people here never learn. Makes it difficult when one grows up and lives in a society that seems to pride itself on being AND STAYING childish and immature. Takes a lot of time and patients as many of our companions learn to deal with life in an adult manner.


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## jon1 (Mar 18, 2012)

It also makes it easier for them to be controlled and kept down. How many times have we heard "bahala na"??

For people like us, we like to have some control over our situations and refuse to let something be "decided" for us.


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## 197649 (Jan 1, 2013)

And the difference in dealing with the U.S. Government is what again? I have been in several countries in my years and it remains the same. Why when I go to the US Embassy(you pick the country) I as a US citizen must surrender my phone, must be scanned and searched. Then when I go inside I deal with local nationals only? Who haven't a clue about what I want. Its the same with VA in Manila. Jet said it best in another thread. Take something you enjoy. He uses the time to spend with his children (great idea) No need in getting frustrated since that will be your life. I myself am getting really good at Bejeweled and Tiger Woods Golf. I'd work with my dogs but many places frown on dogs in their agency


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## Asian Spirit (Mar 1, 2010)

c_acton98 said:


> And the difference in dealing with the U.S. Government is what again? I have been in several countries in my years and it remains the same. Why when I go to the US Embassy(you pick the country) I as a US citizen must surrender my phone, must be scanned and searched. Then when I go inside I deal with local nationals only? Who haven't a clue about what I want. Its the same with VA in Manila. Jet said it best in another thread. Take something you enjoy. He uses the time to spend with his children (great idea) No need in getting frustrated since that will be your life. I myself am getting really good at Bejeweled and Tiger Woods Golf. I'd work with my dogs but many places frown on dogs in their agency


I haven't been to the embassy in maybe 6 months now. Giving up my phone etc is for security and I can understand that and to me is not an issue. I've had good luck each time I had to go there and actually enjoyed visiting with many locals that work there.

The most I deal with them now is by phone and email with social security. Even then, I'm dealing with a young lady that is a Filipina case worker in that department. Again, I've had enjoyable experiences without exception.

Coolest thing was back when I was ready to apply for Social. After contacting them by email, they called me on the phone and did the entire application process in less than 15 minutes and my social was in the bank as it should be the following month--thus saving me an expensive and time consuming trip all the way to Manila.

I suppose like any other place or agency, employees there can have a bad day. But for me it has always been a very positive and even enjoyable experience. So hats off for the all the US embassy employees; both the US citizen employees and the Filipina workers who so gracefully handle our needs and sometimes intolerant attitudes.
But as C_Action says, take a magazine or something with you to pass the time if it's crowded..


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## JimnNila143 (Jul 23, 2013)

*Oh the Joys of Bureauocracy*



Gary D said:


> That seems a common Filipino trait. If something get difficult throw your arms in the air and give up. My wife's answer to anything that seems difficult is I'll go home where it's an easier life.


I told my wife that you can't just Mabuhay everything [let God handle it or God will take care of it], sometimes you have to take control of the helm and do what needs to be done. I also told her she can't quit or give up, we've gone too far down the road to start all over again. Just make sure that you do the right thing at the right time and stick with it.


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## GWrobes (May 7, 2014)

"bahala na" is an expression derived from "Bathala" (supreme being by the early tribes) na". So it is, in effect, saying "let go, and let God" you know Filipinos and their faith. I may be speaking for myself here, but when I say "bahala na", it would mean that I have done everything I can that is within my control, and let the results be decided upon by that which I have no control over.


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## jon1 (Mar 18, 2012)

I just realized that I never updated this. Bottom line: We got the B1/B2 Visa and have already done our US trip without incident.

In the past on this and other forums, I have heard that it was nigh near impossible for a Filipina not going through the immigration process to the US to obtain a Tourist Visa. Here is what we encountered and did to prepare for this possible exercise in futility. (Your mileage may vary)

Preparation time;

NSO Marriage Certificate (took 4 ½ months to receive)
New Passport in Married Name (took 1 month to receive after NSO Cert, I wanted her to travel in her married name even though her passport was still good for 2 more years)
Certified Bank Statements (1 day)
DS160 Confirmation Page (1 day)
Appointment Confirmation Page (1 day)
1st available Embassy appointment (applied for an appointment on June 22 and first available was July 22 = 30 days)
Appointment fee payment receipt (1 day)
Sponsorship Letter from myself (with copy of my passport bio page attached) 20 minutes
Copy of our 42 year lease to our residence, in both of our names (5 minutes)
Old passports for any corroborative evidence (visas in other countries)
College letter stating that she is a full time student between semesters (3 days) she does not work and is a housewife. So I have her in college to give her a hard reason to return.

Time spent at the embassy;
2 1/2 hour drive from Subic (had to start at 0430 for a 0800 appointment, sheesh).
Embassy line to get a number for the scheduled APPOINTMENT (1 hour)
2nd Embassy line to start the processing (30 Minutes)
3rd Embassy window visit for interview (3 hrs 15 minutes)
Interview (2 minutes)

Visa to be processed and couriered back to residence (1 week)

It took us 7 months to get to the Visa interview and only 2 minutes for them to approve it (plus the 3+ hours at the embassy waiting for this brief interview).

Her background is from a poor family but we have been together almost 12 years and only recently married. She has property (due to me), a bank account (for our monthly expenses) and has travelled throughout Southeast Asia over the last 7 years. After reading my sponsorship letter (The Consulate Officer had asked to see my passport, and my wife handed her the photocopy of my passport bio page attached to the sponsorship letter) I think the following clincher questions and answers were;

Q: "Is your husband going to petition you for citizenship/immigrate?"
A: "No"
Q: "Why not?"
A: "I do not want to live there, just visit and meet his family and friends."
Reply: "Congratulations, your visa has been approved"

Observations;

1. Lots of Filipinos turned down for lack of proof of property ownership, employment, etc.
2. It appeared to me as I watched the faces of applicants leave the Consulate that about 3 out of 4 got their application approved.
3. I was reminded several times by Embassy employees that I couldn’t accompany my wife to the interview. I politely acknowledged that and told them calmly that I understood. I waited outside the Consulate front door but inside the compound (just past the Security Checkpoint). I just did not have access to the Immigrations area (I could have gone up to the American Citizen Services if I wanted to but elected not to).
4. There was one other couple that appeared to be in the same status as us (I believe but didn't notice if they were wearing rings) and they were not successful. I do not know the reason, as they did not proffer.
5. 4 Consulate officers processing over 300+ applicants is not very efficient. We were in the middle of the queues when the morning started so there probably were Filipinos there until late in the afternoon.
6. Not all of the above documentation that my wife brought with her was looked at by the Consulate Officer during the interview. What was looked at was her Passport, DS160 page, NSO Certificate and my Sponsorship letter (with Bio Page attached).
7. My wife's answers were short and concise. No fluff added. She noticed several applicants being told to only answer what was asked for.

In the end, my wife was granted a 10 year Tourist Visa after providing only a few corroborative answers.

Now we have to get our itinerary planned for our first trip. The duration of her allowable stay will be determined when she reaches Immigration at our first entry point.

We received her passport with B1/B2 Visa in 10 days.

Leaving the Philippines from NAIA 2 (PAL), the immigrations officer reviewed her passport (asked to see her old passports showing other travel) which she provided, asked for my passport too. She advised my wife to ask for a Balikbayan privilege visa for me upon return. Make sure you bring an NSO Copy of your Marriage Certificate. Stamped our passports on we went.

When we arrived in San Francisco, the Immigrations officer (a filipino was US Navy Retired from Olongapo originally) gave her a 6 month stamp (we were there for a 3 week trip). The guy was very nice and told me that I should have brought her thru the US line with me (we went separate as the signs said US Citizens and Green Card holders, and all others for the other line).

Having this visa is a huge relief as we can now visit the US for life events (funerals, marriages, job interviews, business trips, etc.) without worry.


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## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

jon1 said:


> .....
> In the past on this and other forums, I have heard that it was nigh near impossible for a Filipina not going through the immigration process to the US to obtain a Tourist Visa. .......


It is not only Philipina's that have this problem but other Asian nationals as well.

A good friend is married to a Thai woman. He has bought property in her name (same restrictions as here on foriegn property ownership.) She does not work but manages the family farm so does not have any employer references. She has a son from a previous relationship and the child was going to stay in Thailand so there are strong ties in property ownership and young children remaining in country.

They have gone through the process twice. From what he tells me it appears that the embassy is looking at his cousin's information (They have same first and last names but go by slightly different middle names) My friend was never in the military and his cousin was career Navy. The interview questions have focused on the the military and places where the cousin was posted.

Both times they have been denied visas with no explainations given. Last time they were told that she could get a green card but not a visa.


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## jon1 (Mar 18, 2012)

Manitoba said:


> It is not only Philipina's that have this problem but other Asian nationals as well.
> 
> A good friend is married to a Thai woman. He has bought property in her name (same restrictions as here on foriegn property ownership.) She does not work but manages the family farm so does not have any employer references. She has a son from a previous relationship and the child was going to stay in Thailand so there are strong ties in property ownership and young children remaining in country.
> 
> ...


If I was in that situation, I would be paying a visit to the Consulate solo for a one on one with the Head Consular officer. Minding my P's and Q's, I would politely address the situation. Bring all supporting documentation of the previous applications paperwork, and ask them to explain the situation and his perception about the cousin (retired USN). Be professional, honest, forthright and concise. Who knows? Maybe something derogatory has been entered in error against his name? Maybe his name is now documented as an Alias for his cousin?


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## fmartin_gila (May 15, 2011)

Dealing with the bureaucracy can be one of the most frustrating experiences there is. Years ago, before we were married, we tried to get her a tourist visa to the US. After the fees paid(non refundable) and the wait for the appointment(don't even remember how long that was), she spent most of the day at the embassy for a couple minute interview only to be rejected with no explanation. Then later on we did go through the drawn out process of getting her a Fiancee Visa. She was a Widow, so had to produce all the documentation(Birth, Marriage & Death Certificate) of her past. She is my 4th Wife, so I had to produce documents showing the 1st(Marriage & Divorce),2nd(Marriage & Death Certificate), 3rd(Marriage & Death Certificate). Unbelievable how much info they demand just to enjoy life as it seems they are against that and do whatever is in their power to prevent it. 

Fred


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## Manitoba (Jun 25, 2014)

fmartin_gila said:


> Dealing with the bureaucracy can be one of the most frustrating experiences there is. ....... Unbelievable how much info they demand just to enjoy life as it seems they are against that and do whatever is in their power to prevent it.
> 
> Fred


These guys are watchdogs and as such they always have to bark. You have to feel sorry for them, they cannot win. They have to process a lot of people through their work station and they are tasked with the granting of visa’s to those who deserve them and preventing letting in those who would abuse the system.

If they let anyone in who abuses the system later then they can be called to account, they will not be significantly called to account for preventing anyone from getting past them who deserves to get past them so will *ALWAYS* take extra precaution to prevent anyone from getting past them.

Remember 11 Sep 2001? Recall how badly the minimum wage security screeners were called to account for allowing those 19 guys past their stations? Never mind that they did not have anything with them that was banned at the time, but the poor security screeners were called to task for allowing them to pass. Had they held up the line and taken a closer look at those guys, then they risked being in trouble for holding up the traveling public.

It is the same with any job where they are watch dogs, they just have to bark each and every time.

Personally I pitty watchdogs and would never take any position that had a large watchdog component in it.


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## cvgtpc1 (Jul 28, 2012)

First, congratulations on your success!




jon1 said:


> It took us 7 months to get to the Visa interview and only 2 minutes for them to approve it (plus the 3+ hours at the embassy waiting for this brief interview).


When you think about it, it really took you 12 years developing that background.....




jon1 said:


> When we arrived in San Francisco, the Immigrations officer (a filipino was US Navy Retired from Olongapo originally) gave her a 6 month stamp (we were there for a 3 week trip). The guy was very nice and told me that I should have brought her thru the US line with me (we went separate as the signs said US Citizens and Green Card holders, and all others for the other line).


That was fortunate you had the right guy! My only experience is 20 some years ago thru LAX. First words out of the guy's mouth was he didn't think she would leave and he was thinking about immediately deporting her (mother-in-law). We were flying together. After a 30 minute interrogation in a back office like I was bringing OBL in he let us go. 

What I don't get is we're putting our names all over these docs as the sponsor. If they don't leave or do something then I say come after us, but I've never heard of that happening. I was also in the military at the time so they knew where to find me....


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## cvgtpc1 (Jul 28, 2012)

c_acton98 said:


> Then when I go inside I deal with local nationals only?



I see that in business also. When I work with a foreign company here in the US, I deal with people of that nationality. When I work with a US company in another country, I deal with local nationals.

Always scratch my head when I encounter that.


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## jon1 (Mar 18, 2012)

cvgtpc1 said:


> First, congratulations on your success!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with you about 12 years to develop my situation. US Immigration was my biggest worry as I was worried about her not being let in. I have heard horror stores about DHS but never witnessed it first hand. It's really a shame that they have to put this cloud of worry over you when it should be a happy time (vacation, etc.).


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## colemanlee (Nov 17, 2014)

We are fixing to do the CFO thing...im not going back to the USA, we just want the passport in my wifes name so we can take trips out of country...so what do you guys suggest? Just have the wife go do the USA thing to get the CFO..we have no idea at the present time if we will go to Thailand, Viet Nam or what ever...just need to get the ridiculous CFO. Just looking at the schedule, I would guess that the USA one because you have a better chance of getting in? Or is it based on me being a US citizen ?


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## jon1 (Mar 18, 2012)

colemanlee said:


> We are fixing to do the CFO thing...im not going back to the USA, we just want the passport in my wifes name so we can take trips out of country...so what do you guys suggest? Just have the wife go do the USA thing to get the CFO..we have no idea at the present time if we will go to Thailand, Viet Nam or what ever...just need to get the ridiculous CFO. Just looking at the schedule, I would guess that the USA one because you have a better chance of getting in? Or is it based on me being a US citizen ?


You will need the CFO Brief Certificate only to travel together outside of the Philippines. She also needs this certificate to change her name to her married name in her passport along with an NSO Copy of your Marriage Certificate. She can get the CFO Brief in Cebu Location - with Images | Commission on Filipinos Overseas They will say something about a sticker for her passport but that is incorrect. My wife did not get one nor need one, just have the certificate with her when we travel. The schedule is according to the Foreign Spouse's country.


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## colemanlee (Nov 17, 2014)

Thanks that helps a lot, I appreciate it...


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## jon1 (Mar 18, 2012)

You are welcome. Hearing that my experience helped someone is what this forum is about. No need to make the same mistakes as others. Getting clear info is very hard here as they do that on purpose to drive you to paying someone off to make it easy.

You will find that the NSO Copy of your Marriage certificate to be the long pole in the tent (depending on how long ago you were married).


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## colemanlee (Nov 17, 2014)

jon1 said:


> You are welcome. Hearing that my experience helped someone is what this forum is about. No need to make the same mistakes as others. Getting clear info is very hard here as they do that on purpose to drive you to paying someone off to make it easy.
> 
> You will find that the NSO Copy of your Marriage certificate to be the long pole in the tent (depending on how long ago you were married).


we got it, seems like it took a couple of months...we got married a month or so after Yolanda, was going to do it in Tacloban but Yolanda screwed that up, luckily I have a friend that's the mayor in a place that didn't get hurt badly, she married us..


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## ohemjee (Nov 18, 2014)

Back in my country, as someone from minority race my whole life i had to pay 'extra money' for EVERYTHING even passport. The perks? Same day process or even no need to visit any office, just wait at home. 
Today I will go to the BI & extend my Visa. 
Time to experience first hand how they're doing here


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## yakc130 (Apr 27, 2012)

I think the first time we came back to the states, we were going to go to the separate lines. A girl from TSA/HS saw us talking and told us to both go through the same line since we were married. When it was my turn to go up to the booth, I made the wife come with me. 

The HS cop saw that I was a medic working in the Middle East, and it was more like a reunion of safety workers. We chatted a bit, and then he stamped both of our books, and said to enjoy our leave. 

Since then, that's the way we've always done it. 

I'm glad to hear that things worked out great for you guys.


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