# Reply from EU regarding residency documents required in Spain



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

I have just had this email 




> Dear Madam,
> 
> Thank you for getting in touch with Your Europe Advice.
> 
> ...


So, the Spanish authorities have the right to ask for any documents that they want for permanent residency 


This is the rest 



Brexit: 

The UK may be withdrawing from the EU on the 31st October 2019 and you wonder what rights can be enjoyed this year after the 31st October 2019, when the UK is no longer a member of the European Union. This is a relevant consideration as far as you are concerned, given that you are a UK citizen. 

1.The United Kingdom submitted on 29 March 2017 the notification of its intention to withdraw from the EU pursuant to Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union (TEU). The UK may become a third country on 31st October 2019 (unless the negotiation period is extended under Article 50 TEU). In any event, the UK remains an EU Member States until 31st October 2019 with all its rights and obligations and EU law remains fully applicable until that day. 

The negotiators of the EU and the UK reached on 14 November 2018 an overall deal on the terms of the Agreement on the Withdrawal of the UK from the EU (Withdrawal Agreement). The text of the draft Withdrawal Agreement was published (you can access to it here: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-6424_en.htm). The draft Withdrawal Agreement still needs to be formally signed and ratified by both the EU and the UK before citizens and businesses can actually rely on it. 

2.If a Withdrawal Agreement is ratified before the UK leaves the EU on 31st October 2019, it would provide for a transition period (the negotiators have preliminary agreed on a transition period until the end of 2020). 

In which case, you would continue to enjoy the right to reside in Spain (under the conditions described above). However, you would be obliged to apply for a Spanish residence document before the end of the transitional period (which ends on the 31st December 2020). 

3. If a ratified Withdrawal Agreement was not in place before 31st October 2019 and if the negotiation period under Article 50 TEU was not extended, all EU law will cease to apply to and in the UK as from that date (31st October 2019). In which case, your case will be resolved in accordance with the statutory scheme described above. 

4.The Withdrawal Agreement does not deal with the future relationship between the EU and the UK once the transition period ends (in the first scenario).


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Megsmum

“So, the Spanish authorities have the right to ask for any documents that they want for permanent residency “

I am pretty sure that has been the situation since the residencia card was abolished in April 2007 for EU nationals and the green paper certificate came into existence. I can’t remember but it may have been in existence since long before that. 

That said I have never personally been aware of any instance when additional paperwork has been required. 

It is not unusual for ‘catch all’ conditions to inserted into laws, for the ‘just in case’ situations !


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## tebo53 (Sep 18, 2014)

Megsmum.......Thank you for the useful information.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

I reckon that when it comes to presenting evidence to 'the authorities' no matter
which country your living in, as it's the same the world over.

That those that are in temp, self-employed, working freelance or contract work, in other
words those that are not in regular full-time permanent employment, are given
a hard time, when being asked to present the necessary documents and proof
that they can support themselves and their family.

I remember one time when seeking a mortgage while working freelance, that the
lender demanded 5 years of accounts and a complete breakdown of my income
and outgoings over the same period before he would even consider me as an
eligible and suitable mortgage applicant.
Whereas when I approached the same lender again after completing a 6 month
probationary period in a permanent full-time job. The contract of employment sufficed
and they were not the slightest bit interested in anything else and whats more,
I could shop around freely for the best mortgage rates which again was almost
impossible as a Temp, self employed, working freelance or contract worker.

No doubt there are the same 'blinkered people' who access requests for 
permanent residency documents, along with their perceptions of the worthiness
of those that are not in regular full-time permanent employment, as those that
work in the banks and building societies & assess mortgage applicants.


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## tebo53 (Sep 18, 2014)

I read some posts stating that if you have been living here in Spain legally for 5 years and can provide proof then you will be automatically treated as a "Permanent" resident but then I read other posts that say I must apply for a "Foreigner identity Card" before Dec 31st 2020 to achieve permanent residency.

What should I do,...nothing or apply for a Foreigners ID card?

Steve


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

EU nationals who have registered on the EU Citizen Register automatically achieve the status of ‘permanent’ after five years. 

There in no need to do anything

If one’s circumstances, address etc change, and one notifies the authorities, then the replacement green cert will show ‘permanent’ on it ’ 

PS Usual proviso, unless Brexit changes that for U.K. nationals


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

tebo53 said:


> I read some posts stating that if you have been living here in Spain legally for 5 years and can provide proof then you will be automatically treated as a "Permanent" resident but then I read other posts that say I must apply for a "Foreigner identity Card" before Dec 31st 2020 to achieve permanent residency.
> 
> What should I do,...nothing or apply for a Foreigners ID card?
> 
> Steve


The first thing you have to do is to wait until (and if) the UK leaves the EU.

The date of 31st Dec 2020 is contingent on the UK leaving on the 31st October - if that moves then so does every other date.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Tebo 
If you have been here five years, and the U.K. leave without a deal, then we must wait and see what spain / EU decide to have us do if. 

That they do not know at present would explains why in March this year they refused to allow U.K. nationals to make application appointments, and cancelled those which had been made, until the knew if U.K. were gong to leave. In the event that they got he extension, things reverted to what they had been. 

If there is a chance uk will crash out on 31st October, they will probably do the same again


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

snikpoh said:


> The date of 31st Dec 2020 is contingent on the UK leaving on the 31st October


But only with a deal. Wih no deal everything is out of the window on Nov 1st.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Juan C said:


> Megsmum
> 
> “So, the Spanish authorities have the right to ask for any documents that they want for permanent residency “
> 
> ...



And yet you consistently told people including myself that I did NOT have to show documents AGAIN and yes whilst a certificate of permanent residency is automatically assumed after five years the authorities have the right as stated above to ask for all the evidence of income, length of stay, healthcare requirements again. I fact, you suggested that my lawyer didn’t know what she was talking about. 

[


> quote=tebo53;14943586]I read some posts stating that if you have been living here in Spain legally for 5 years and can provide proof then you will be automatically treated as a "Permanent" resident but then I read other posts that say I must apply for a "Foreigner identity Card" before Dec 31st 2020 to achieve permanent residency.
> 
> What should I do,...nothing or apply for a Foreigners ID card? Personally we wanted as much eveidence as possible


Steve[/QIf *UK citizens already had a permanent residence certificate as an EU citizen, the process will be almost automati*cUOTE]

Which many interpret as having the green card with permanent on because ...
In the email response I got above it states those with permanent residency will/should get automatically transferred to the new TIE status. The policía national made it clear to us on Monday that that meant those with a permanent card.

Again forums are great but as we know every regions, village and day of the week interprets the laws differently. I think a person should do what THEY feel is right for them

*If a ratified Withdrawal Agreement was not in place before 31st October 2019 and if the negotiation period under Article 50 TEU was not extended, all EU law will cease to apply to and in the UK as from that date (31st October 2019). In which case, your case will be resolved in accordance with the statutory scheme described above. 
*

In our case, with advice from, Office of extranjeros at police station, our lawyer and my local mayor was to get the permanent ON the card now, rather than wait because in their opinion no deal Brexit will mean automatic TIE for permanent residents as opposed to assumed permanent, if that makes sense 



Juan C said:


> EU nationals who have registered on the EU Citizen Register automatically achieve the status of ‘permanent’ after five years.
> 
> There in no need to do anything
> 
> ...


It is automatic but not assumed. If you do NOT fill the criteria it will not be given.


My take is as follows 

The law states you must apply for the residency after three months, with all the relevant paperwork, Permanent Residency is assumed after five years BUT is only guaranteed after you fulfil whatever your local regional offices require.

My take is, however as relevant as anyone else’s take. The only relevant statement is as above in the email or what your individual offices say. As I can’t see any policía national listening to Brits banging in about how wrong they are when faced with not being able to get permanent residency


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

I am a bit lost with the last post. However the officer in charge of the extranjería I have known very well for more than twenty years insists EU Nationals with an EU Citizen Registration Certificate (green paper, A4 or credit card size) do not need to renew the certificate in order for the holder to have permanent resident status

When I applied to vary my certificate to show my change of nationality as Irish in 2010, it had shown British, I only completed an EX18, paid the fee and produced my original passport and a copy 

I have only ever known others renewing their green certs being required to do as I did 

P S Although I did say I understood the police ‘could’ ask for other paperwork, I did say I have never known of an instance when they have done so. 

I guess the ‘catch all’ is there for very exceptional cases, where the authorities are reluctant to grant the residence status for some reason which would rarely apply.


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## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

Juan C said:


> I am a bit lost with the last post. However the officer in charge of the extranjería I have known very well for more than twenty years insists EU Nationals with an EU Citizen Registration Certificate (green paper, A4 or credit card size) do not need to renew the certificate in order for the holder to have permanent resident status
> 
> When I applied to vary my certificate to show my change of nationality as Irish in 2010, it had shown British, I only completed an EX18, paid the fee and produced my original passport and a copy
> 
> ...


A great deal has changed since 2010. 
Megsmums information is First Hand and as current as possibly can be. Doesn't matter one jot who you know or how long you've known them. Every region/office will differ in so small way to big variances.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

The requirements for EU Citizen Registration have not changed since the residencia was abolished for EU nationals on 2nd April 2007


PS Bob. Just in passing, my association with the National Police has been continuous for 22 years


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## stevesainty (Jan 7, 2011)

A few months ago, in Torrevieja, Alicante, we applied to have our "residencia" made permanent. 

We had to jump through all the same hoops that we had when we first applied. 
Healthcare, including SIPS (tarjeta sanitaria in Communidad Valencia) and S1 cert
Income, certified 3 months bank statements, statements of state and occupational pensions.

This is an area with lots of activity in the extranjeria from EU citizens from all parts, and 3rd country nationals too.

This is just to illustrate that each town, let alone autonomous region, have their own procedures which you have to abide by or fail in your objective.

This is why local knowledge is so important in researching the procedures to be followed to ensure a smooth outcome.


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## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

Juan C said:


> T*he requirements for EU Citizen Registration have not changed since the residencia was abolished for EU nationals on 2nd April 2007
> *
> PS Bob. Just in passing, my association with the National Police has been continuous for 22 years


Maybe so, however the way in which the requirements were and are now interpreted and implemented since 2007 has changed quite dramatically. Again Megsmum's current document requirements a perfect example of this.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Juan C said:


> The requirements for EU Citizen Registration have not changed since the residencia was abolished for EU nationals on 2nd April 2007
> 
> 
> PS Bob. Just in passing, my association with the National Police has been continuous for 22 years


So, my email from the EU is wrong. We are not and have never spoken about the initial registration as EU citizens we are talking about the so called automatic residency after five years, where you have consistently said that the authorities are not correct in asking for the equivalent information as provided on the original registration process.

No one said anything about after five years it states residency is assumed as permanent. The issue is that now and as the email from the EU to myself clearly states, whilst residency after five years is assumed it is not guaranteed IF YOU CANNOT FULFIL THE REQUIREMENTS REQUIRED. It was made quite clear to us, that if our income etc was not sufficient we would remain on the existing residency card but we would NOT be automatically updated to the new TIE in post Brexit world. 

Obviously my Local policía national, the EU citizens advisory are all wrong but Juan and his police friend are the only ones who are correct


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

stevesainty said:


> A few months ago, in Torrevieja, Alicante, we applied to have our "residencia" made permanent.
> 
> We had to jump through all the same hoops that we had when we first applied.
> Healthcare, including SIPS (tarjeta sanitaria in Communidad Valencia) and S1 cert
> ...



H'm I wonder whether there's a League table of the extranjeria offices where Expats can find out 
which office in which town are pretty straight forward, for getting the "residencia" made permanent
and others at the bottom of the League table that are pernickety and can be dead hard to satisfy ?

Would be nice to get some customer feedback from Expats living in different regions of Spain.


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## Tigerlillie (Apr 7, 2015)

stevesainty said:


> A few months ago, in Torrevieja, Alicante, we applied to have our "residencia" made permanent.
> 
> We had to jump through all the same hoops that we had when we first applied.
> Healthcare, including SIPS (tarjeta sanitaria in Communidad Valencia) and S1 cert
> ...


This is the same in France, different Prefectures in different towns and different departments and regions interpret the procedures in their own way, there's nothing you can do about it apart from comply with their instructions and rules. It doesn't matter who you know, what rules you think they should follow or how you think they should interpret them, in their office you do and follow what they say or you don't get what you want.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Juan C said:


> The requirements for EU Citizen Registration have not changed since the residencia was abolished for EU nationals on 2nd April 2007


Yes they have. They changed in 2012 when the requirement to produce evidence of minimum income and independent health care was introduced.

Sorry but I do wish you'd check your facts before posting advice, which you yourself have admitted in the past has sometimes been based on unreliable sources. It only leads to confusion, which is the last thing people need in these difficult times.

Have a nice weekend.


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

Tigerlillie said:


> This is the same in France, different Prefectures in different towns and different departments and regions interpret the procedures in their own way, there's nothing you can do about it apart from comply with their instructions and rules. It doesn't matter who you know, what rules you think they should follow or how you think they should interpret them, in their office you do and follow what they say or you don't get what you want.


:amen: to that but it's worse, from the top down Prefectures can and do change their own rules on a whim so what holds true on one day can be different the next.

Also *never say 'oui' when you can possibly say 'non'* is the core ethic of every fonctionnaire as it protects their jobs, can you imagine how many posts could be eliminated overnight if you could successfully complete whatever your business happened to be in one visit instead of five?

Oh no, no, no, keep them coming back as many times as possible to prove that we're all rushed off our feet and need even _more_ people to cope!


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## Ovaldo (Aug 12, 2019)

Megsmum said:


> Obviously my Local policía national, the EU citizens advisory are all wrong but Juan and his police friend are the only ones who are correct


Have to agree with Juan.. Your local policia national are probably telling you what you want to hear to get you out of the office or off the phone as quickly as possible.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Ovaldo said:


> Have to agree with Juan.. Your local policia national are probably telling you what you want to hear to get you out of the office or off the phone as quickly as possible.


Some time ago we had a poster who was always ready to jump in with helpful advice. He too had some connection with the police, can’t remember whether local, national or GC. The Mods banned him in the end because much of the advice he gave was either anecdotal, misleading or just wrong.

I don’t take as gospel anything that anyone who isn’t a recognised professional tells me and even then I check and double-check until I’m as sure as possible that I’m on the right track. Least of all do I believe well- meaning amateur givers of advice on important subjects although I might pay attention if someone tells me where to find a good shoe repairer within a. ten km radius of where I live.

Ive also learned that lemgth of residency in Spain doesn’t always confer superior knowledge, wisdom or judgment. I know some very pleasant but very dim people who’ve lived in Spain for over thirty years.

Im not saying any advice or comment given here is wrong. I’m just saying you need to check, double check and triple check for yourself, even where real professionals are involved.
EU and UK or Spanish Government sources might be thought to be generally reliable, though.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Absolutely perfect advice. 

Exactly what I tell people who come to the police with advice they have from elsewhere, including some ‘experts.’


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