# A nail in the coffin of solar power in Spain



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

_That’s right. Spaniards who use solar panels to produce electricity, and use the energy they make, must pay a consumption tax. _

Why Spain has sold out the sun – Expat - My Telegraph


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## el romeral (May 8, 2012)

You couldn't make it up :frusty:. 

This country needs to get a grip :tape:.


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## Sirtravelot (Jul 20, 2011)

It's stuff like this that makes me not want to move to Spain.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> _That’s right. Spaniards who use solar panels to produce electricity, and use the energy they make, must pay a consumption tax. _


Yes, it's quite ludicrous. I'm surprised actually that the EU are even allowing them to do this.

It is quite ludicrous. In the UK we pay higher bills for the investment in and introduction of more green and sustainable sources of electricity, in Spain they tax it.

If anyone was in any doubt just how desperate for tax revenues this Spanish government is and to what lengths they're prepared to go to fleece their population this really should underline it.

It's this kind of madness and specifically the introduction of the new asset reporting law that has stopped me from going to live there on a more permanent basis. I'm now looking at other European cities that haven't loss their marbles quite like the Spanish government have.


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2013)

*It's what one expects from the PP*

The manner in which the bill was introduced also attracted controversy. The government had allowed only the minimum time possible for public consultation – 10 days. This was expressly intended to avoid any public discussion and participation by civil society, and stands in stark contrast to the government’s continuous dialogue with the major electric utilities throughout the process.


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## stevesainty (Jan 7, 2011)

Does anyone know whether this includes solar hot water?

I suspect that, ludicrous as it may be, it is just for electricity generating.


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## maxd (Mar 22, 2009)

Taxing the sun now, the air will be next.


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2013)

Are there challenges in the air to this new corporate take-over of a natural resource?


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

maxd said:


> Taxing the sun now, the air will be next.


I'm afraid to say it but they've already done that. They recently slapped a tax on new installations of air conditioner units.

These are desperate measures by an increasingly desperate government who are in real trouble.

This is what concerns me most about the new asset reporting law. Whilst the government has so far denied any possibility of taxing those assets, the more desperate they get, the more likely they are to go after them. Once you've declared them you can hardly deny they exist.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

mysticsmick said:


> This was expressly intended to avoid any public discussion and participation by civil society, and stands in stark contrast to the government’s continuous dialogue with the major electric utilities throughout the process.


Why are you surprised? This Spanish government (and previous governments) have shown quite clearly they don't care two hoots for what their population and electorate think. They're just looking for ever more ingenious ways to tax their way out of their current financial predicament and protect all those cushy Civil Service jobs and pensions.

In this sense they're not much different to the UK government. They caused the problem (who else could have caused it, apart from their own and previous government policies?) yet expect the innocent population to yet again pay for their mistakes. 

The really amusing part of it all is, despite the contempt the government shows for the electorate, they keep voting for them! So in many ways they're self inflicting this upon themselves. The sad part is, all of us have to suffer it.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

stevesainty said:


> Does anyone know whether this includes solar hot water?


I'm pretty certain it doesn't, it is as you say, for electricity generation. 

The government is in hock to the electricity companies by billions of euros. This move is an attempt to maintain the high prices and revenue of the electricity companies by making it economically non viable for people to use solar power for electricity generation. Thus protecting the high prices and monopoly of the electricity companies whilst at the same time as bringing in tax revenues to help repay their debt to them.

You can understand the logic behind what they're doing. What makes it amusing is that UK customers have to pay higher prices _because of _the 'green levy' yet Spanish customers are being taxed on being green and discouraged from doing it.


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

zenkarma said:


> Why are you surprised? This Spanish government (and previous governments) have shown quite clearly they don't care two hoots for what their population and electorate think. They're just looking for ever more ingenious ways to tax their way out of their current financial predicament and protect all those cushy Civil Service jobs and pensions.
> 
> In this sense they're not much different to the UK government. They caused the problem (who else could have caused it, apart from their own and previous government policies?) yet expect the innocent population to yet again pay for their mistakes.
> 
> *The really amusing part of it all is, despite the contempt the government shows for the electorate, they keep voting for them! So in many ways they're self inflicting this upon themselves. The sad part is, all of us have to suffer it.*


*
*

Looking at this forum there is no shortage of folk wanting to re-locate to rip off Spain, at least this and similar forums tell the bad news as well as the good news.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

*Hold On*

Has anyone actually verified this??

The article is somebody's blog not a statement of official fact.

So

Has anyone actually verified this??


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> Has anyone actually verified this??


Yes.

I read about this a little while ago when it was put out as a proposal. As far as I'm aware, it's now going forward into law.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

crookesey said:


> Looking at this forum there is no shortage of folk wanting to re-locate to rip off Spain...


That's because many people try to choose the least of the evils. Personally, I don't think the UK government is any better or worse than the Spanish government. They're both equally contemptuous of their electorate, equally non-caring about their population, both push through very unpopular laws (because they can and they don't care) and both equally corrupt and greedy.

At least in Spain you generally get nicer weather, a slower pace of life and a wonderful culture steeped in fascinating history.

The only attractive thing about the UK for most people is the benefits system which is why most of the EU wants to relocate there.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

zenkarma said:


> That's because many people try to choose the least of the evils. Personally, I don't think the UK government is any better or worse than the Spanish government. They're both equally contemptuous of their electorate, equally non-caring about their population, both push through very unpopular laws (because they can and they don't care) and both equally corrupt and greedy.
> 
> At least in Spain you generally get nicer weather, a slower pace of life and a wonderful culture steeped in fascinating history.
> 
> The only attractive thing about the UK for most people is the benefits system which is why most of the EU wants to relocate there.



I'd agree with that, altho now I'm back and miserable in the UK, I have to say that the benefit system, altho horrendously abused, is reassuring - not that I use it, but its there! ......... But I do wish I was in Spain, much nicer!

Jo xxx


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

crookesey said:


> [/B]
> 
> Looking at this forum there is no shortage of folk wanting to re-locate to rip off Spain, at least this and similar forums tell the bad news as well as the good news.


Well as one of the Folk about to relocate to Spain I can take and accept the good with the bad. I am not relocating to Rip off Spain I am relocating to Spain, a foreign country with different ideas, beliefs etc to the UK,



> zenkarma said:
> 
> 
> > That's because many people try to choose the least of the evils. Personally, I don't think the UK government is any better or worse than the Spanish government. They're both equally contemptuous of their electorate, equally non-caring about their population, both push through very unpopular laws (because they can and they don't care) and both equally corrupt and greedy.
> ...


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> Has anyone actually verified this?? The article is somebody's blog not a statement of official fact.


I did a quick online search when I first read Pesky's post. The initial articles started being written in early July by Forbes, Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg, and other economy oriented online magazines & newspapers. It was then said that this would be put into effect by early September, but it seems to have been advanced more rapidly than thought.

Here's one of the many articles published after the tax was put into effect:

'Let's tax the sun': new law shocks world press - The Local


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mysticsmick said:


> 'Let's tax the sun': new law shocks world press - The Local


That doesn't verify anything. As far as I can ascertain, The Local is just another tabloid catering to expats' needs to justify their wailing against the the country to which they unwisely relocated. It may even be associated with Mary's favourite, the Daily Heil


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> *Hold On*
> 
> Has anyone actually verified this??
> 
> ...


Well spotted Baldi!!
The problem is English/ Spanish.
I find that if I post a link to smth in Spanish hardly anybody reads it and I rarely have the time nor enthusiasm to translate. (Also there's normally someone who pick the translation to pieces which may or may not be useful)
So, I was looking for a link to something in English. If you search smth like *reforma energética energía solar españa* more comes up - although I must admit, not a lot...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

zenkarma said:


> Why are you surprised? This Spanish government (and previous governments) have shown quite clearly they don't care two hoots for what their population and electorate think.


Well, even you were surprised that the EU is allowing it (actually I believe they are investigating it).
I am not at all surprised that the Spanish govenment is ignoring its electorate. Why should this government be any different to other govenments? 
What I am more than worried about is the total lack of future planning politics consists of know.They'll give up planting trees soon 'cos they don't grow in 4 years so why bother??


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

The Spanish government are no different from any other - they're just a bit less diplomatic and covert!

Jo xxx


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> That doesn't verify anything. As far as I can ascertain, The Local is just another tabloid catering to expats' needs to justify their wailing against the the country to which they unwisely relocated. It may even be associated with Mary's favourite, the Daily Heil


I'm trying to verify that this in fact has become law, but as of now am unable to do so. Here is an article dated the 15th of this month (9 days ago) that "seems" to sum up the current state of affairs:

NPD Solarbuzz: Spain’s solar u-turn could expose €20 billion PV bubble - PV-Tech


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mysticsmick said:


> I'm trying to verify that this in fact has become law, but as of now am unable to do so. Here is an article dated the 15th of this month (9 days ago) that "seems" to sum up the current state of affairs:
> 
> NPD Solarbuzz: Spain’s solar u-turn could expose €20 billion PV bubble - PV-Tech


Again it is just a media buzz and in that, it says it is only draft and won't come into force until the autumn.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

I can't see that it can be legal. It is the same as taxing people for growing their own vegetables ! 
& a 30,000€ fine for failing to register.They're having a laugh.

Zenkarma, Spain is the same as the UK . There is a green tax hidden in the electricity tax which basically pays towards those who generate there own.
If this is passed into law it will kill the solar power market in spain, stone dead.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

One more reason because we want the independence from Spain.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

mickbcn said:


> One more reason because we want the independence from Spain.


I think everyone will at this rate ! lol


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

mickbcn said:


> One more reason because we want the independence from Spain.


Do you think that it will ever happen? I'm not so sure that the Scots will vote for independence, application to join the EU could be a stumbling block, with no certainty as to whether they would have their own independent currency managed in Scotland by Scots and I can't see them joining the Euro. That would leave England running the currency of another country.

As a Yorkshireman I know how you and the Scots feel, the south gets the cake whilst we get the crumbs, Westminster even has the brass neck to think that it has the right to decide where a house of York king is to be re-buried.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

I am not sure from the independence of Scotland. but I am sure from the independence of Catalonia..look the news the next 11 of september.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, even you were surprised that the EU is allowing it (actually I believe they are investigating it).
> I am not at all surprised that the Spanish govenment is ignoring its electorate. Why should this government be any different to other govenments?
> What I am more than worried about is the total lack of future planning politics consists of know.They'll give up planting trees soon 'cos they don't grow in 4 years so why bother??


In my Corner of Andalucia they are planting new trees in their thousands. Spain is becoming a major exporter of avocados, especially to the US. They are carving up the hillsides to plant thousands of avocado trees. It is becoming big business. Once you saw lots of orange & lemon trees, now it's avocados and a lesser extent, mangos. I would imagine they get an EU grant for land reclamation


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

mickbcn said:


> I am not sure from the independence of Scotland. but I am sure from the independence of Catalonia..look the news the next 11 of september.


A bit like Italy actually, industrially very strong in the north, the south has caught up with you guys on tourism though.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Aron said:


> In my Corner of Andalucia they are planting new trees in their thousands. Spain is becoming a major exporter of avocados, especially to the US. They are carving up the hillsides to plant thousands of avocado trees. It is becoming big business. Once you saw lots of orange & lemon trees, now it's avocados and a lesser extent, mangos. I would imagine they get an EU grant for land reclamation


That's if there is any permission.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Aron said:


> In my Corner of Andalucia they are planting new trees in their thousands. Spain is becoming a major exporter of avocados, especially to the US. They are carving up the hillsides to plant thousands of avocado trees. It is becoming big business. Once you saw lots of orange & lemon trees, now it's avocados and a lesser extent, mangos. I would imagine they get an EU grant for land reclamation


So, do you see it as a positive or a negative?


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## olivefarmer (Oct 16, 2012)

Do Avocados use more water than citrus? If so where will all the water come from? Ebro?


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

Aron said:


> In my Corner of Andalucia they are planting new trees in their thousands. Spain is becoming a major exporter of avocados, especially to the US. They are carving up the hillsides to plant thousands of avocado trees. It is becoming big business. Once you saw lots of orange & lemon trees, now it's avocados and a lesser extent, mangos. I would imagine they get an EU grant for land reclamation


Spain are the biggest producer of olive oil in the world. What always puzzles me when we land at Malaga or Alicante is the plethora of barren farm land with derelict barns and fincas. Granted there are a lot of golf courses that stand on previously agricultural land, which will employ far more Spaniards than farms of similar sizes ever did, but they can't build golf courses and holiday complexes on ever bit of land.

Surely there is room for farming, on a co-operative basis, however the Spanish government don't seem at all interested, so how about solar energy and wind farms?


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## JaneyO (Sep 24, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> _That’s right. Spaniards who use solar panels to produce electricity, and use the energy they make, must pay a consumption tax. _
> 
> Why Spain has sold out the sun – Expat - My Telegraph


I am rendered speechless. Has Spain drifted into some sort of parallel universe?


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

crookesey said:


> Do you think that it will ever happen? I'm not so sure that the Scots will vote for independence, application to join the EU could be a stumbling block, with no certainty as to whether they would have their own independent currency managed in Scotland by Scots and I can't see them joining the Euro. That would leave England running the currency of another country.
> 
> As a Yorkshireman I know how you and the Scots feel, the south gets the cake whilst we get the crumbs, Westminster even has the brass neck to think that it has the right to decide where a house of York king is to be re-buried.


Please don't get me started on the subject of Scottish Independence... in the history of bad ideas this one deserves a class of it's ownout::croc:


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

dunmovin said:


> Please don't get me started on the subject of Scottish Independence... in the history of bad ideas this one deserves a class of it's ownout::croc:


No, I think we've already done that one to death.

It seems that canny Scots are set to knock that on the head next year anyway if the polls are pointing in the right direction. What kind of independence is it that wants to retain the Monarchy and the £ sterling anyway? Plus they'll be forced to retain Trident if they want to stay in NATO. Scottish OH thinks it's a big no-no.


Anyway, back to the topic. 

Yes, it seems a very foolish move for Spain. One of its strongest industries is green technology. 
We've just had solar panels installed at the perrera for both environmental and cost-saving reasons. Hopefully we won't be penalised.
Many of the lampposts around here are powered by mini solar panels.
The use of this kind of energy generation should be encouraged with grants and tax breaks.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

crookesey said:


> ,
> Surely there is room for farming, on a co-operative basis, however the Spanish government don't seem at all interested, so how about solar energy and wind farms?


A short ride from Calahonda into the hills above Casares towards Alcala and Jerez will showyou the landscape is dotted with wind generators. 
I do believe that this form of energy generation is also prevalent in the North of Spain.
Spain is one of the leaders in the development and application of solar power and green technology in general and any sane government would play on those strengths and not weaken them.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

crookesey said:


> [/B]
> 
> *Looking at this forum there is no shortage of folk wanting to re-locate to rip off Spain*, at least this and similar forums tell the bad news as well as the good news.


Have just read this. 
Who on this Forum has relocated or wants to relocate to 'rip off Spain', I wonder?
Names!:
Most people want to come for what they think, rightly or wrongly, will be a better life.
Sadly, many do not have the skills or professional qualifications needed to achieve that 'better life.
But such people are in the main aspirational, not anti-social.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Have just read this.
> Who on this Forum has relocated to 'rip off Spain', I wonder?
> Proof?


I have relocated to Spain, plain and simple, Those whingers who complain that it is 'rip-off Spain' should go back to where they came from, especially if they think it is so much better!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> I have relocated to Spain, plain and simple, Those whingers who complain that it is 'rip-off Spain' should go back to where they came from, especially if they think it is so much better!


Ah Baldy...I read the words 'rip off' as a verb not part of an adjectival phrase...
Must be slower than usual tonight..
But either reading is far from the truth.
BTW, thanks for your research efforts, much appreciated. Will reply tomorrow.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, it seems a very foolish move for Spain. One of its strongest industries is green technology.
> We've just had solar panels installed at the perrera for both environmental and cost-saving reasons. Hopefully we won't be penalised.
> Many of the lampposts around here are powered by mini solar panels.
> The use of this kind of energy generation should be encouraged with grants and tax breaks.


I still ask the same question: "has this been verified" or is it just rumours by the rabble-rousing yellow-press. 

Ok, You'll say that it has been in this, that, or the other media but they (especially those of that ilk) often quote each others' stories irrespective of whether they've checked the veracity of them. SWMBO used to be the International News side of a Colombian TV station and she frequently took stories from the BBC and, because of Auntie's integrity in those days, reused them with no further verification other than checking that others were using the same/similar story. The facts were alway taken from Auntie


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> .
> BTW, thanks for your research efforts, much appreciated. Will reply tomorrow.


"No probs, lady" as I believe some of the young say, these days.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> "No probs, lady" as I believe some of the young say, these days.


But your manners are always elegant, Alan..
Which is more than can be said for a lot of folk these days, young or old.


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> I have relocated to Spain, plain and simple, Those whingeers who complain that it is 'rip-off Spain' should go back to where they came from, especially if they think it is so much better!


Or even censorship rules OK. Mary contrary stalks my every post, hovering over me like a rash. If you had taken the time and effort to investigate before jumping on her band wagon, you would have noted that my post countered an ex-pat's post having a pop at Spaniards keeping on voting for the same administration, but why let the truth get in the way of a good rant?

This post will no doubt be nuked, as is the way with anyone questioning the fountain of no knowledge.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

crookesey said:


> Or even censorship rules OK. Mary contrary stalks my every post, hovering over me like a rash. If you had taken the time and effort to investigate before jumping on her band wagon, you would have noted that my post countered an ex-pat's post having a pop at Spaniards keeping on voting for the same administration, but why let the truth get in the way of a good rant?
> 
> This post will no doubt be nuked, as is the way with anyone questioning the fountain of no knowledge.


For a start my post was not directed at you personally but, as they say, "if the cap fits..." 
and for your info, I don't follow Mary, she and I often disagree about things but we agree to differ as mature humans should.

I think it is getting near time you left either voluntarily or by other means.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> I still ask the same question: "has this been verified" or is it just rumours by the rabble-rousing yellow-press.


And the question has been answered: yes. 

It's still at the draft/proposal stage. Here's an online petition objecting it to it if anyone is interested:

Derecho al Autoconsumo GRATUITO y Responsable de Recursos como la Energía Solar, la Energía Eólica y el Agua de Mar.

And a bit more information about the thinking behind it:

El Gobierno aprueba la reforma energética, que equilibra definitivamente el sistema eléctrico - Mº de Industria, Energía y Turismo


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

zenkarma said:


> And the question has been answered: yes.
> 
> It's still at the draft/proposal stage. Here's an online petition objecting it to it if anyone is interested:
> 
> ...


Thank you. Everyone else just quoted another media article in support of the claim which, as you know, means nothing.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

crookesey said:


> If you had taken the time and effort to investigate before jumping on her band wagon, you would have noted that my post countered an ex-pat's post having a pop at Spaniards keeping on voting for the same administration...


There's some truth to the view that Spain has been and is becoming more of a 'rip off' to people who relocate to live there. You only need to look at the way that the central and regional governments ride rough shod over personal interests. There's plenty of examples of this -

- The way regional governments in the past has happily granted planning permission to developers who build houses on land that the central government then turns round and declares to have been built illegally and bulldozes them with very little recourse to the home owners except lengthy legal wrangles through the courts;
- The way in which off plan properties are sold and then not completed as the builder and developer goes bankrupt leaving people out of pocket;
- The way in which local taxation departments come after property purchasers for more IPT transfer tax because their figures for the taxable value of the property are different to the actual sale price of the property;
- That not only is electricity in Spain one of the highest in the Eurozone but the government is currently planning on changing the tariff system to mean that standing charges will represent a much higher proportion of the monthly cost on low electricity use properties thus penalising holiday homes. So, if you cut down and use less, you still pay more!

And so on, the list is endless.

At the end of the day people pay their money and they take their choice. For many, the higher quality of life in Spain is worth the downsides—that's their prerogative to choose.


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> I do believe that this form of energy generation is also prevalent in the North of Spain.


Yup, up here to.


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2013)

zenkarma said:


> And the question has been answered: yes.
> 
> It's still at the draft/proposal stage. Here's an online petition objecting it to it if anyone is interested:
> 
> Derecho al Autoconsumo GRATUITO y Responsable de Recursos como la Energía Solar, la Energía Eólica y el Agua de Mar.


Great research work & thank you for it. I'm forwarding the petition link to all my friends.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

zenkarma said:


> There's some truth to the view that Spain has been and is becoming more of a 'rip off' to people who relocate to live there. You only need to look at the way that the central and regional governments ride rough shod over personal interests. There's plenty of examples of this -
> 
> 1 - The way regional governments in the past has happily granted planning permission to developers who build houses on land that the central government then turns round and declares to have been built illegally and bulldozes them with very little recourse to the home owners except lengthy legal wrangles through the courts;
> 2 - The way in which off plan properties are sold and then not completed as the builder and developer goes bankrupt leaving people out of pocket;
> ...


I've numbered your points to make it easier to answer them

1. Regional Governments are not too much to blame on this one but local (corrupt) alcaldes? - yes. In many cases (not all) this has been down to out-of-town (sometimes Brit) property developers going to the alcalde with a proposal that if he/she were to grant building permits for the land that was previously embargoed for building, the alcalde can have a nice slice of the profits. When the whole thing blows up, the developer has long gone along with a rather larger share of the money than was expected and the alcalde is left to carry the can as the Regional Government says that was illegal and the site must be restored to its previous condition even if it means demolition.

2. This is far from unique to Spain and happens everywhere and is one of the major reasons not to buy off-plan. We escaped getting caught in Florida because I wouldn't buy what I couldn't see - there wasn't even a show house.

3. People who go in for illegal practices and get caught have nobody to blame but themselves

4. No comment except that it is the same everywhere, even in the UK. There is a standing charge that, ostensibly contributes to the costs of installation and maintenance irrespective of consumption - the holiday home's installation still has to be paid for and maintained irrespective of whether it is used 365 days a year or 2.

Nobody is forced to come to Spain but if they do, they should come with their eyes wide open after doing, as I always maintain, proper research which amounts to more than whether they can get their favourite beer in the nearby bar and the _Sun_ in the shop or whether they've got a five minute walk to buy them.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

I don't understand what people are saying about _rip off Spain_.

But I do know that the thread is supposed to be about *Solar Power in Spain...
*
so

:focus:

possibly?????


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> For a start my post was not directed at you personally but, as they say, "if the cap fits..."
> and for your info, I don't follow Mary, she and I often disagree about things but we agree to differ as mature humans should.
> 
> I think it is getting near time you left either voluntarily or by other means.


You know where the report button is, however on further investigation you will find that I don't counter post with mary, neither do I post insults and abuse, unlike some. You infer that I should be banned from this forum, perhaps you should bump up my offending posts, I wish you well in your search for them.


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't understand what people are saying about _rip off Spain_.
> 
> But I do know that the thread is supposed to be about *Solar Power in Spain...
> *
> ...


The Spanish government possibly taxing solar energy is the reason, so well within topic.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

So you put a solar panel on your roof and the Spanish tax man will see it and immediately tax you. I just wonder how much extra money will be spent on policing what is, in my view, just another unworkable law. First they would have to spot the panel (they could make it a responsibility of the seller that they have to report who bought it but that is easily overcome) then they would have to prove it is generating electricity which would require many surprise visits etc etc. Taxing solar energy is not only either stupid, ignorant or immoral, it is all three many times over.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

thrax said:


> So you put a solar panel on your roof and the Spanish tax man will see it and immediately tax you. I just wonder how much extra money will be spent on policing what is, in my view, just another unworkable law. First they would have to spot the panel (they could make it a responsibility of the seller that they have to report who bought it but that is easily overcome) then they would have to prove it is generating electricity which would require many surprise visits etc etc. Taxing solar energy is not only either stupid, ignorant or immoral, it is all three many times over.


No ,the law includes the fact that you have to register the system or face a 30,000€ fine. They do not have to know how much it actually produces. They will tax you on the maximum it CAN produce & the responsibility to prove actual production will lie with you. As with all Spanish legislation.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> I've numbered your points to make it easier to answer them
> 
> 1. Regional Governments are not too much to blame on this one but local (corrupt) alcaldes? - yes. In many cases (not all) this has been down to out-of-town (sometimes Brit) property developers going to the alcalde with a proposal that if he/she were to grant building permits for the land that was previously embargoed for building, the alcalde can have a nice slice of the profits. When the whole thing blows up, the developer has long gone along with a rather larger share of the money than was expected and the alcalde is left to carry the can as the Regional Government says that was illegal and the site must be restored to its previous condition even if it means demolition.
> 
> ...



3) No , he is talking about the many people who bought legally in Andalucia , say for 250,000€ then had to sell for whatever reason for 100,000€ paid all taxes on this amount but are then being asked to pay increased tax based on the 2007 revalued IBI's that show that the property has a value of 500,000€. It is a nonsense. 

4) At present my actual bi-monthly bill has an electricity tax, green tax & iva charge that amounts normally to 52% of the bill .
The standing charge is,10,80€, & electricity 48€ . They are proposing to reduce the electricity cost to say 10€, & put the standing charge up to50€ .Then you will find that after a short period the electricity will rise again.
Call me cynical.

In the 11 years I have lived here I have reduced our electricity usage by 60%. The bill remains the same.
It is not possible to reduce it further.
I have actually considered whether I can get by without the electric & the answer is yes, if it came to it.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> No ,the law includes the fact that you have to register the system or face a 30,000€ fine. They do not have to know how much it actually produces. They will tax you on the maximum it CAN produce & the responsibility to prove actual production will lie with you. As with all Spanish legislation.


OK, it's Sunday, there has been much discussion on this but one simple fact remains unclear to me at least:
is this new tax to be imposed or not or is it merely rumour?
Yes or no , then we can give an opinion in more definite terms.
If it's a fact then it's bad news for our perrera where as I said we've recently installed three large placas.
But even so, it's a bit OTT to describe it as a 'rip-off', really, imo. Many immigrants are of the opinion that living here is less expensive than in the UK and other countries. Personally, I'm not sure about that.
I would describe it rather as a misguided and ultimately counter-productive measure which can only harm Spain's reputation as a leader in green technology.
It smacks of desperation. The Government should be introducing measures to support the green tech sector of the economy, not only for domestic and environmental reasons but to aid exports which need diversifying away from agricultural products.
Green technology whether solar wind or wave is almost guaranteed to play a larger role in the economies of many nations and it would be sad to see Spain squander the head start it has enjoyed.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> I've numbered your points to make it easier to answer them


Baldilocks I'm going to have to answer this reasonably quickly as I don't have much time this morning. Regarding point 3, I think you're misunderstood what I've said.

Property purchasers are paying the correct amount of tax at purchase time. No-one is deliberately trying to avoid the correct amount of tax. What's happening, is that because of the large falls in property prices, the price the local taxation office has for that property is higher than the price paid in this market. 12 months or so after purchasing the property, having paid the correct amount of IPT tax at purchase time, purchasers are receiving bills for €x,000 from the local taxation department claiming they have underpaid the correct amount of tax. They can only pay the tax based on the price at purchase and current tax rate.

Regarding point 4, please read the link I posted regarding the thinking. What the government is doing is increasing the standing charge to almost 50% of the total bill for low usage properties. This effectively means low usage properties, like holiday homes are subsidising higher usage and business properties. It's just another way of taxing holiday home owners.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> OK, it's Sunday, there has been much discussion on this but one simple fact remains unclear to me at least:
> is this new tax to be imposed or not or is it merely rumour?
> Yes or no , then we can give an opinion in more definite terms.
> If it's a fact then it's bad news for our perrera where as I said we've recently installed three large placas.
> ...



No it won't harm them , it will destroy what is left. 
Spain has already caused great harm to the industry when they first substantially reduced feed-in tariffs, causing 000's of spanish installers to go out of business; leading to a near 80% fall in panels required & in turn leading the Chinese , who had been supplying millions per week, to offload them all over the EU & rest of world , so leading to job losses all over the place , etc;etc;etc. 
No, they've already done the damage , they are just putting in the final nail. 

It has also, if it is actually implemented, far reaching consequences for other areas. Around here if you wish to build a house, nave, industrial building in the countryside, you cannot have mains electricity. If electricity is required it must be from a renewable source. So it will have far-reaching wffwcts on food production, to name but one.

P:S: I signed the petition on another forum.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Sorry Zen but the way you worded it:


> "The way in which local taxation departments come after property purchasers for more IPT transfer tax because their figures for the taxable value of the property are different to the actual sale price of the property"


It sounded as though you were commenting on Hacienda catching up with those who did brown-envelope jobs and the actual sale price was vastly different from the declared cat-val.


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

Had the UK benefited from similar weather to Spain and solar power was the up and coming thing, I wager that Gordon Brown would have beaten Spain to the draw in taxing it.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

crookesey said:


> Had the UK benefited from similar weather to Spain and solar power was the up and coming thing, I wager that Gordon Brown would have beaten Spain to the draw in taxing it.


Yes, he probably would, although his brief period as PM was characterised more by an unwise increase in public spending than by tax increases. He was a man with many personal defects as well as poor political judgment...but then we all have our blind spots..
But then the same could be said of Blair and Thatcher who incidentally left a higher proportion of personal income taxed after her term in office
It is the habit of all governments whether of right or left to raise revenue from taxation since apart from borrowing, what other source of revenue do they have?
Back to Spain and topic:
The current PP government in Spain has failed to stimulate the economy and unemployment will increase in 2014 according to most analysts. So watch out for more tax hikes on fuel, tobacco etc.
As for Gordon Brown, any astute observer of the UK political scene would have forecast well in advance that he would have been a disaster as PM.
Far too left- wing for an old small c conservative like me.


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

If anyone fancies having a look at the ramifications of the UK government scrapping the state top up pension (SERPS), in order to bring in a flat rate pension of £140.00 per week, they will see the biggest scam in the history of pensions.

The highest possible state pension including maximum SERPS is £255.00 per week, this reduction will help to create a very uneven pension system and almost certainly see the end of private pension provision due to large NHI contributions at the top end for zero return.

Tax on solar panels, that's only kid's stuff.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Ok, I'm going to play "devils advocate"! We may think our governments may take too much and may treat our/their money in a different way than we'd like them to. BUT, we, in Spain and the UK ALL have a good standard of living, we have mod cons, safe environments, homes, roads, cars, shopping malls, street lights, schools, hospitals, even clothes.................. It all has to be paid for. In the end, if we want to live in a country that doesnt bother, in a dictatorship country or a third world country torn apart by war and poverty - then we need to be looking elsewhere.

Well, its another way of looking at it!!

Jo xxx


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

jojo said:


> Ok, I'm going to play "devils advocate"! We may think our governments may take too much and may treat our/their money in a different way than we'd like them to. BUT, we, in Spain and the UK ALL have a good standard of living, we have mod cons, safe environments, homes, roads, cars, shopping malls, street lights, schools, hospitals, even clothes.................. It all has to be paid for. In the end, if we want to live in a country that doesnt bother, in a dictatorship country or a third world country torn apart by war and poverty - then we need to be looking elsewhere.
> 
> Well, its another way of looking at it!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Democracy, freedom or whatever you want to call it is about the electorate majority constantly reminding the elected minority who the boss actually is.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

crookesey said:


> Democracy, freedom or whatever you want to call it is about the electorate majority constantly reminding the elected minority who the boss actually is.


Its not about power, its about quality of our lives. 

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

crookesey said:


> If anyone fancies having a look at the ramifications of the UK government scrapping the state top up pension (SERPS), in order to bring in a flat rate pension of £140.00 per week, they will see the biggest scam in the history of pensions.
> 
> The highest possible state pension including maximum SERPS is £255.00 per week, this reduction will help to create a very uneven pension system and almost certainly see the end of private pension provision due to large NHI contributions at the top end for zero return.
> 
> Tax on solar panels, that's only kid's stuff.


Yes, SERPS was a great achievement of the Wilson Labour Government, the architect being Barbara Castle, if I remember rightly.
But you cannot compare NI contributions in the UK to a ****tive Spanish tax on solar energy.
As has been pointed out, all NI based schemes are essentially Ponzi schemes. The Spanish proposal is self-defeating and amongst other things is surely against both the letter and spirit of Kyoto?
How, I wonder, does it fit with the new law introduced only a couple of months ago requiring Energy Proficiency Certificates for house sales and new rental contracts?
.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, SERPS was a great achievement of the Wilson Labour Government, the architect being Barbara Castle, if I remember rightly.
> But you cannot compare NI contributions in the UK to a ****tive Spanish tax on solar energy.
> As has been pointed out, all NI based schemes are essentially Ponzi schemes. The Spanish proposal is self-defeating and amongst other things is surely against both the letter and spirit of Kyoto?
> *How, I wonder, does it fit with the new law introduced only a couple of months ago requiring Energy Proficiency Certificates for house sales and new rental contracts?*
> .


ooh you cynic!!!


I doubt you're far wrong though


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

crookesey said:


> Democracy, freedom or whatever you want to call it is about the electorate majority constantly reminding the elected minority who the boss actually is.


Democracy and freedom are no way synonymous. History gives many illustrations of that. It is also true that one person's freedom is another's tyranny.

Our democracy is about the elected majority by which I'm assuming you mean the elected government quite rightly acting to show us that THEY are the boss...as someone notably said, the tyranny of the majority.
But unless you can come up with a better system....JoJo is quite right, really it is about the quality of our lives and I'm grateful to be able to lounge by the pool after a good lunch, reading the Sunday papers via internet and dipping into Expats Forum.

We are fortunate.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> ooh you cynic!!!
> 
> 
> I doubt you're far wrong though


When you are as old as I am, you may be cynical

Funnily enough, someone I was chatting to the other day asked what had made me so cynical to which I replied: ' being twenty years older than you'.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I moan about our governments, I moan about the state of our countries and the apparent injustices, but seriously, look at the world, the middle east, Syria, Egypt............ We are blessed that we are able to moan and able to chat freely on the internet. 

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> I moan about our governments, I moan about the state of our countries and the apparent injustices, but seriously, look at the world, the middle east, Syria, Egypt............ We are blessed that we are able to moan and able to chat freely on the internet.
> 
> Jo xxx


Moaning equals a kind of freedom, I guess.
What is amazing really is how lightly these events you mention pass over us, yet so terrible for those involved, with implications that will in most cases go on for the rest of their lives.
A week ago the queues in Gibraltar were a 'hot' topic. Now scarcely a mention in the media. Syria went quiet for a while until the gas attack.
It reminds me of that painting, I think it's by Breughel or someone Dutch, I know sod-al about art but you know the one,it's often reproduced, lots of little people all busily doing their own thing and in the left top corner Icarus falling from the sun, totally ignored by everyone.
We get on with our own lives because it's all we can do. That's one reason I junked any political view based on ideology. 
But I think politicians should have at least some kind of_ path_ to follow and this lot in charge of Spain seem to have strayed off it and lost the map...


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> Moaning equals a kind of freedom, I guess.
> What is amazing really is how lightly these events you mention pass over us, yet so terrible for those involved, with implications that will in most cases go on for the rest of their lives.
> A week ago the queues in Gibraltar were a 'hot' topic. Now scarcely a mention in the media. Syria went quiet for a while until the gas attack.
> It reminds me of that painting, I think it's by Breughel or someone Dutch, I know sod-al about art but you know the one,it's often reproduced, lots of little people all busily doing their own thing and in the left top corner Icarus falling from the sun, totally ignored by everyone.
> .


This one??? Fileieter Bruegel de Oude - De val van Icarus.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jo xxx


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> ooh you cynic!!!
> 
> 
> I doubt you're far wrong though


Only by two years, but why let facts get in the way?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

crookesey said:


> Only by two years, but why let facts get in the way?


Can you explain which fact is in your view incorrect?
The only fact I see mentioned in my post is about the Energy Proficiency Certificate law which I believe came into force on June 1st this year.
Am I wrong?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> This one??? Fileieter Bruegel de Oude - De val van Icarus.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Jo xxx


Yes, that's it. Makes you think, doesn't it...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

crookesey said:


> Only by two years, but why let facts get in the way?


_As some will already have spotted, Spain is (once again) considering the introduction of Energy Performance Certificates (EPC).

It is looking as though this will actually go through this time and is scheduled for June 1st 2013_.


Snikpoh's post.
I believe the law did come into force on June 1st as planned.

So I think we could call what I wrote a fact, couldn't we.

Now having checked that I'm taking the dog out.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> When you are as old as I am, you may be cynical
> 
> Funnily enough, someone I was chatting to the other day asked what had made me so cynical to which I replied: ' being twenty years older than you'.


Imagine how I feel? Bl**dy youngsters!

I once wrote a poem called "A Cynics' Christmas"


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Do you think we could get Rajoy and his mob to take an interest in this:
Man invents machine to convert plastic into oil - YouTube


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

More on this subject from one of our long -lost friends:

ALEC calls for penalties on 'freerider' homeowners in assault on clean energy | World news | theguardian.com


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