# Racism in Mexico and Central America



## caseyh (Nov 2, 2013)

citlali said:


> what the Yucatecan Mayas


I have a random question. Yucatecan...does that mean the state or the peninsula? Does it change when we say Yucatecan Maya. I go to Quintana Roo a lot and always call it "the Yucatan". I have often wondered how wrong that is. Is the difference between "Yucatan" and "El Yucatan" clear?

Correct me if I am wrong but I have always felt like culture on the peninsula was rather unified. I mean do people from Merida relate to those in Chetumal and Campeche more than say in Oaxaca/Mexico City/Durango/Chiapas. Clearly this is not black and white (Maya probably have different views than Latinos and plenty of people from Mexico City live on the peninsula etc). I ask because I just noticed that all thee states were part of the Yucatan Republic.

I once read that culture in Mexico is so diverse that you can travel 100 miles in almost any direction from almost any town and experience a cultural change greater than we see in the USA between Boston and Atlanta (something like that). If this is true than I would expect Merida and Chetumal to be really different...is the Yucatan an exception?


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

caseyh said:


> Thats great history.
> 
> One of the reasons I like the Caribbean Coast of Mexico and Central America so much is the result of all this history. The Spanish dominated politics and social dynamics inland, but most of the coast was isolated. This allowed for incredible cultural diversity to evolve on the coast. Latin influences abound but the indigenous and black culture also abound (Maya in Yucatan, English and Creole Belize, Garifuna, Miskito, Blacks in Costa etc).
> 
> ...


By Spanish you mean Spaniards right?


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> By Spanish you mean Spaniards right?


You can refer to natives of Spain as either "the Spanish" or "Spaniards".


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

There is no doubt that the Peninsula has its own culture but that is pretty much true of any area that was isolated for a long time. Many of the upper class Mexicans from Yucatan and Chiapas for that matter would study in Europe rather than Mexico City as it was eaier and more prestigious to go there than Mexico City.

Once day I was visiting the house of Belisario Dominguez in Chiapas and I realized that all the books in his office were in French as he had gone to Paris to study medecine. Apparently that was true for a lot of the sons of the upper clases both in Chiapas and in the Yucatan.

I worked with a French man once who was an engineer and had lived in the Yucatan for quite a while and worked on the team who built the airport in Merida. He told me that the Yucatan was very isolated in those day and had its own culture .He cherished the wonderful memories of his life there.

But I think it is important to remember that indigenous would travel great distances to trade so there is no area totally intact and without influences from other tribes, cultures etc..You had to that the Europeans and the Africans who also went through there and you have a pretty unique culture in many parts of Mexico.


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## caseyh (Nov 2, 2013)

Isla Verde said:


> You can refer to natives of Spain as either "the Spanish" or "Spaniards".


And I really meant Spanish as well as Mexicans (other nationalities too) of Spanish decent. 

I never use Spaniard. I have heard that word used in a derogatory context too many times. This especially true when used by the "locals" (the whites descendant from pirates) in the Bay Islands Honduras but I have also heard it used by blacks (even Latinos...or people I would have expected to identify as Latino) throughout the Caribbean coast. I am not sure its a derogatory but its always been derogatory context. 

I asked a Mexican (of Spanish descent) from Mexico City about this in a rural area near Chetumal.. He said that his dialect, color and facial features stand out like a sore thumb in the area he lives. He has a Roman nose, a PhD and a hard time understanding his neighbors (linguistically and culturally). They are mostly mestizos that live in a very poor isolated area. He said that any animosity comes from him being wealthy, educated and from the capital...not necessarily his "race" per se. He added that wealthy outsiders (that dont fit in) are generally "Spaniards" from the "city". I heard the exact same thing from a my Roman nosed business partner in Tortuguero Costa Rica.

All I am pointing out is that it is used for some Mexicans, Hondurans, Nicaraguans and Costa Ricans of Spanish descent too. I accidentally used Spanish the way I have heard them use Spaniard. I have a feeling I should avoid that.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

caseyh said:


> And I really meant Spanish as well as Mexicans (other nationalities too) of Spanish decent.
> 
> I never use Spaniard. I have heard that word used in a derogatory context too many times. This especially true when used by the "locals" (the whites descendant from pirates) in the Bay Islands Honduras but I have also heard it used by blacks (even Latinos...or people I would have expected to identify as Latino) throughout the Caribbean coast. I am not sure its a derogatory but its always been derogatory context.
> 
> I asked a Mexican (of Spanish descent) from Mexico City about this in a rural area near Chetumal.. He said that his dialect, color and facial features stand out like a sore thumb in the area he lives. He has a Roman nose, a PhD and a hard time understanding his neighbors (linguistically and culturally). They are mostly mestizos that live in a very poor isolated area. He said that any animosity comes from him being wealthy, educated and from the capital...not necessarily his "race" per se. He added that wealthy outsiders (that dont fit in) are generally "Spaniards" from the "city". I heard the exact same thing from a business partner in Tortuguero Costa Rica.


In the US it's become common for uninformed people to call anyone who speaks Spanish as their first language "Spanish". But, of course, this is incorrect. Do we call everyone whose native language is English "English"? Of course not.

I've never heard "Spaniard" being used in a derogatory way in the States. Here, of course, you would say "español". There are, however, a few derogatory ways to refer to Spaniards in Mexico, like _gachupín_. A Mexican of Spanish descent is still Mexican, not Spanish. It sounds like things a bit different in Chetumal, though. I've never been to that part of Mexico, but in the places I have spent some time in, I've never heard of wealthy outsiders referred to as "Spaniards", unless they were indeed from Spain. Anyway, thanks for sharing these revealing anecdotes about life and attitudes along the Mexican and Central American coasts.


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## caseyh (Nov 2, 2013)

Isla Verde said:


> A Mexican of Spanish descent is still Mexican, not Spanish. It sounds like things a bit different in Chetumal, though. I've never been to that part of Mexico, but in the places I have spent some time in, I've never heard of wealthy outsiders referred to as "Spaniards", unless they were indeed from Spain. Anyway, thanks for sharing these revealing anecdotes about life and attitudes along the Mexican and Central American coasts.


I did not mean to say that the Mestizos called him Spaniard in Chetumal but that they related to him as someone of more Spanish heritage and it was not necessarily a good thing. I got the impression in was more like the way we think of the Aristocrat. It seemed similar to what I have seen other places without using of the word. 

Now that you mention it, everywhere I have heard this was in areas where English is common among the locals... like the Bay Islands, Miskito Coast and Caribbean of Costa Rica. Chetumal is so close to Belize maybe a bit of it drifted over. 

I learned Spanish in the Bay Islands where this is common. The first time I heard it used, it was one of the most offensive shocking things I've ever heard. I probably notice it more because of this. I also never quite understood it since, like you said, they don't call me English. This is why I ask people from time to time and why I don't use it.


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## caseyh (Nov 2, 2013)

As for "unless they were from Spain" I did not mean they would use it for Gringos. They use it for rich Nationals that look European. I think this has to do with when they came from Spain. They may be nationals but they are rich and look a lot like the people that they fought to get there everything back from. 

I know its taboo but I thought "shade racism" was common in Mexico. That is, elite lighter skinned people looking down on darker more Indigenous populations.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

caseyh said:


> As for "unless they were from Spain" I did not mean they would use it for Gringos. They use it for rich Nationals that look European. I think this has to do with when they came from Spain. They may be nationals but they are rich and look a lot like the people that they fought to get there everything back from.
> 
> I know its taboo but I thought "shade racism" was common in Mexico. That is, elite lighter skinned people looking down on darker more Indigenous populations.


This is definitely not something that exists in Mexico, as far as I know, except for areas like Chetumal. Good God, Spaniards haven't been running things in Mexico for over two hundred years! Historical memories run long and deep in certain parts of the country, whether for better or for worse, I cannot say.

Of course, this kind of racism exists in Mexico though many Mexicans will deny it.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_I know its taboo but I thought "shade racism" was common in Mexico. That is, elite lighter skinned people looking down on darker more Indigenous populations.[/QUOTE]_

I am not sure why you used the word "elite" there, amigo. Racism is rampant in Mexico and people with lighter skin look down on people with darker skin routinely no matter their social class. 

When we drive between San Cristóbal de Las Casas and Lake Chapala in our Mexicianplated acr, we are normally above suspicioun and let through d without hesitation but when our dark.skinned indigenous friends are with us, we are subject to thorough searches and intensily questioned as to documentatoio. Such is life.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

There is a huge racist tradition in Mexico, mostly towards indigenous people
I don't think Ing. Carlos Slim, Lebanese origin, gets discriminated, even though he's not european or blonde.
As I said, mostly goes to indigenous, then black people, and then...any racial or religious difference one may have


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

That is a good point Gary, it mostly goes towards indigenous although they are plenty of decent people with indigenous. The nasty ones are pretty nasty.
I had a black friend from Surinam in San Cristobal and she told me she was much less discriminated against in Mexico than in the US but the she was stunningly beautiful and exotic looking so tat may have helped her.
MY friends from Oaxaca in Ajijic are called something like tagadas which makes me laugh but really upset them.
When I asked a local why the name I was told it was just a nickname and nothing racist was meant but I can tell you the recipients of the nickname do not appreciate it,

By the way I have never heard of "tagadas" is that something nasty or just some silly nicjkname?


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

citlali said:


> That is a good point Gary, it mostly goes towards indigenous although they are plenty of decent people with indigenous. The nasty ones are pretty nasty. I had a black friend from Surinam in San Cristobal and she told me she was much less discriminated against in Mexico than in the US but the she was stunningly beautiful and exotic looking so tat may have helped her. MY friends from Oaxaca in Ajijic are called something like tagadas which makes me laugh but really upset them. When I asked a local why the name I was told it was just a nickname and nothing racist was meant but I can tell you the recipients of the nickname do not appreciate it, By the way I have never heard of "tagadas" is that something nasty or just some silly nicjkname?


I've never heard that, it would be interesting to find out what it is, possibly a nasty thing I'm afraid


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

GARYJ65 said:


> There is a huge racist tradition in Mexico, mostly towards indigenous people
> I don't think Ing. Carlos Slim, Lebanese origin, gets discriminated, even though he's not european or blonde.
> As I said, mostly goes to indigenous, then black people, and then...any racial or religious difference one may have


My observations have been similar ... regarding discrimination in Mexico.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Regarding racism in Mexico, sadly it runs even within families. Many years ago I was taking a third-class bus from Mexico City back to Texcoco, where I was living at the time. I started chatting with a nice middle-aged Mexican woman, who told me that her niece had married an American guy. She mentioned how surprised she was that a "tall handsome" American had fallen in love with and married her niece, since her niece was "fea" (keep in mind that often "feo/a" here means "not attractive" rather than "ugly", the basic translation of the word into English). When I protested that, of course, her niece wasn't "fea", she responded, something on the order of, "But she's so "morena" (dark). After that comment, there wasn't much for me to say.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Isla Verde said:


> Regarding racism in Mexico, sadly it runs even within families. Many years ago I was taking a third-class bus from Mexico City back to Texcoco, where I was living at the time. I started chatting with a nice middle-aged Mexican woman, who told me that her niece had married an American guy. She mentioned how surprised she was that a "tall handsome" American had fallen in love with and married her niece, since her niece was "fea" (keep in mind that often "feo/a" here means "not attractive" rather than "ugly", the basic translation of the word into English). When I protested that, of course, her niece wasn't "fea", she responded, something on the order of, "But she's so "morena" (dark). After that comment, there wasn't much for me to say.


Wow
But that is a very wide spread way of thinking
In that case, Halle Berry would be super fea!


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## caseyh (Nov 2, 2013)

Hound Dog said:


> I am not sure why you used the word "elite" there, amigo. Racism is rampant in Mexico and people with lighter skin look down on people with darker skin routinely no matter their social class.


Yeah, that was a really poor choice of words. I meant they think they are elite. 

I also meant for it to be a question. What I am trying to figure out, is weather the "power class" is still dominated by "Spanish Blood". This goes back to members of the Criollo Caste thinking they were of pure Spanish descent. Are they still in charge?

In reference to "no matter their social class" I would generally agree but I have seen it go the other way (although not in Mexico). Along the Caribbean Coast people often consider themselves Caribeño regardless of race. It is a cultural distinction that relates to Caribbean life. In this situation people often cross race to side with other Caribeño before they would agree with the outsiders. If the outsider is a rich, pale National they call him a "Spaniard" but if that guy had an identical twin that had been living a Caribbean lifestyle for a few generations he would just be another guy. 

This is NOT TO SAY these people don't discriminate against each other. They all distrust each other (and more) and the only thing they agree on is that they don't like Costa Ricans...lol. But within a "given shade" the discrimination is much greater towards non Caribeños. Its a unique case of culture being more important than race or religion.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

caseyh said:


> Yeah, that was a really poor choice of words. I meant they think they are elite.
> 
> I also meant for it to be a question. What I am trying to figure out, is weather the "power class" is still dominated by "Spanish Blood". This goes back to members of the Criollo Caste thinking they were of pure Spanish descent. Are they still in charge?
> 
> ...


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## caseyh (Nov 2, 2013)

GARYJ65 said:


> I have some Italian, French, Arabic, Spanish and I think there is a bit of stray dog bloods in me, so I have to defend this non pure race position!


I hope it did not come off like I was defending purity. I'm a mutt too!
I just thought this was a bigger part of Mexican politics than it is.


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## caseyh (Nov 2, 2013)

Boy, I sure opened a can of worms using the word "Spanish". I kept digging so I could better understand a dynamic that most of you claim does not exist. However, the author of this paper describes the dynamic in detail. 

QUOTE from Manchester University Department of Social Anthropology @ http://jg.socialsciences.manchester.ac.uk/Peasants/mestizaje.html:

"What the elites of the region have done over the centuries is manipulate ideas about "ethnic" difference to divide lower class people against each other: to encourage them to feel they are intrinsically "different" and have nothing in common. So again we can see that looking at how ethnic distinctions are constructed is not just an academic issue. It has very important political implications, especially given that national elites tend to be seen by ordinary people as different from themselves and essentially "more European"....

"Mexico’s political history after 1856 is the history of the rise of a new mestizo elite. It is, however, an elite which is extremely authoritarian as far as Indians are concerned; it is an elite which has fully internalized the old Creole ideology of whitening as progress and sees itself as a progressive force in history because it is leaving the backward Indian past behind"...

"On the negative side, however, we must recognize that the national state in Mexico and the regional state governments are still controlled by non-Indian elites which have vested interests to defend"... 
END QUOTE

So.... Maybe Mexico is not ruled by Spaniards, but according to this paper... "more European" people that "internalized the old Creole ideology" "still controlled" Mexico. 

Oddly enough this paper (published scientific literature) also uses both "Indian" and "elite". Its amazing how intertwined these subjects can become.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

caseyh said:


> I hope it did not come off like I was defending purity. I'm a mutt too!
> I just thought this was a bigger part of Mexican politics than it is.


Purity is great, as well as mixed races
In fact, for those of you interested in the subject, you should look for" hybrid vigor" or "heterosis"
Very interesting

In any case, Mexicans are racists in many ways


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

"On the negative side, however, we must recognize that the national state in Mexico and the regional state governments are still controlled by non-Indian elites which have vested interests to defend"... 
END QUOTE

So.... Maybe Mexico is not ruled by Spaniards, but according to this paper... "more European" people that "internalized the old Creole ideology" "still controlled" Mexico. 

Oddly enough this paper (published scientific literature) also uses both "Indian" and "elite". Its amazing how intertwined these subjects can become.[/QUOTE]

Indian is a term that we don't like using in Mexico
And the power elite in Mexico is not anymore formed by Europeans only, Carlos Slim, as an example, is of Lebanese descent. An d there are many more examples as this.

I can't remember when were the indigenous people ruling Mexico, possibly 500 yrs ago
was the last time


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## caseyh (Nov 2, 2013)

GARYJ65 said:


> Purity is great, as well as mixed races
> In fact, for those of you interested in the subject, you should look for" hybrid vigor" or "heterosis"


I'm an evolutionary biologist  and many of the most beautiful people I have ever seen were mixed.

OH, and I just realized that paper is from 1998 IDK how much has changed in 15 years.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

caseyh said:


> I'm an evolutionary biologist  and many of the most beautiful people I have ever seen were mixed.
> 
> 
> Then you know that is because we do have hybrid vigor, I'm a former Veterinarian...
> But let's keep it a secret and don't tell the breed purists, let's not make them feel bad


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## caseyh (Nov 2, 2013)

GARYJ65 said:


> "On the negative side, however, we must recognize that the national state in Mexico and the regional state governments are still controlled by non-Indian elites which have vested interests to defend"...
> END QUOTE
> 
> So.... Maybe Mexico is not ruled by Spaniards, but according to this paper... "more European" people that "internalized the old Creole ideology" "still controlled" Mexico.
> ...


Indian is a term that we don't like using in Mexico
And the power elite in Mexico is not anymore formed by Europeans only, Carlos Slim, as an example, is of Lebanese descent. An d there are many more examples as this.

I can't remember when were the indigenous people ruling Mexico, possibly 500 yrs ago
was the last time[/QUOTE]

Yeah the paper is kinda old, clearly things are changing... hopefully for the better. But "still controlled" and "not anymore formed by Europeans *only*" are not the same. Is he an exception. 

I know about not using "Indian", that's why I was surprised to see it used by a scholar of Mexican sociology. The author is English, perhaps its a British English thing (any Brits here?). 

Either way the paper is a good read, lots of regional info about the way Mexicans identify as Mestizo/Indigenous/Other and it effects on racism.


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## caseyh (Nov 2, 2013)

garyj65 said:


> caseyh said:
> 
> 
> > i'm an evolutionary biologist  and many of the most beautiful people i have ever seen were mixed.
> ...


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> I can't remember when were the indigenous people ruling Mexico, possibly 500 yrs ago
> was the last time


As a group, this is certainly true, but let's not forget Benito Juárez, one of Mexico's best presidents, who was of pure Zapotec background and Porfirio Díaz, who ruled Mexico for over 30 years and was of mixed Zapotec and European blood.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

While this thread has strayed somewhat from land issues, I have enjoyed reading some posts here regarding racism in Mexico although I lack the tenacity to read back over umpteen pages. I conk out about Page 10. 

Having grown up a white boy in the then proudly racist U.S. state of Alabama fron the early 1940s through the mid-1960s, I know racism and even institutionalized racism quite well. Racism and/or class distinctions exist everywhere in the animal kingdoms, including humans, on this planet, but European Alabamians in the deep south in the U.S. shamelessly and proudly codified racisrm into their laws to delimit the opportunities of Alabamians of African descent (30% of the population then) after their defeat of the southerners of European descent in the U.S. Civil War but that was, as always anywhere, about power and privilege. This is a complex issue and this shallow posting can´t hope to address it but here is a story:

My wife is the primary motivator of our move part of each year from Lake Chapala to San Cristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas, a town considered by many to be the representation of the cultural essence of that state. She has made many indigenous friends there, some of whom are staying with us this week in our home in Ajijic while participating in the Feria de Los Maestros del Arte in Chapala starting this coming Friday. 

Her indigenous friend from the small village of Amatenango Del Valle, about 45 minutes out of San Cristóbal, sculpts jaguars of clay and she is quite famous for this among collectors including the fat boy here. 

Just recently, my wife was in Chiapas helping organize the local Chiapanecos who will be attending the fair in Chapala and, in the course of her duties, was accompanying her artisan friend on a bus to Mexico City from Tuxtla Gutierrez, Chiapas, a rather long overnight journey of, say, 12 hours, and along the way, as is typical of Southern Mexico, periodically the bus was stopped for inspection of passengers by federal authorities. This is a routine down there and to be anticipated. 

As is often the case, the bus was more-or-less full and the inspectors checking out the passengers would stop the bus and proceed to walk through the bus aisles with flashlights in hand shining those lights on all passengers and reserving the right to physically inspect anyone they so chose.

There may have been maybe 50 pasengers on that bus but, as far as my wife could ascertain , only two dark skinned indigenous folks and the federal authorities inspecting the bus passengers chose only two out of the pasengers as a whole. They were my wife´s friend next to whom she was seated and one other dark skinned indigenous pasebger and when I say inspect, I mean thorough and highly personal and humiliating "frisks" or body searches as if they were pigs in a trough ready to send to market. 

That is one of many stories I could tell about racism in Mexico. Those stories are endless.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Isla Verde said:


> As a group, this is certainly true, but let's not forget Benito Juárez, one of Mexico's best presidents, who was of pure Zapotec background and Porfirio Díaz, who ruled Mexico for over 30 years and was of mixed Zapotec and European blood.


You are right about this!
About Benito Juarez being one of Mexico's best Presidents, there are contradictory opinions about it


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