# Coalitions and Disgusting Ministers



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

At Dunmovin's suggestion I'm opening this thread about the current UK political situation.
My opinion....so far I'm cautiously optimistic. It seems there is a new atmoosphere of co-operation and consensus which is good. Debate seems to have largely replaced negativity.
But this David Laws affair makes me incandescent with fury.
This man, a multi-millionaire, is in charge of delivering cuts in public services. These are needed, true, but thousands of low-paid workers will either see their wages frozen or lose their jobs altogether.
Laws has over the past ten years received over £100k in 'allowances'. His excuse/explanation:' I wanted to keep my homosexuality secret from my friends and family'.
He represents a party that stands for the rights of gay people. That says an awful lot about the kind of friends he has presumably in his own Party. And a man in his forties, unmarried, no girl-friend? Are his family dim or something???
Can't they reach the obvious conclusion????
I remember the Bermondsey bye-election in the 80s when Liberal Simon Hughes stood against Labour's openly -gay Peter Tatchell. The Liberals mounted a viciously homophobic campaign against Tatchell. I've met Peter Tatchell and although I disagree profoundly with some of his views he is a principled person and incidentally personally extremely pleasant. Some of us knew at the time that Simon Hughes was also gay but didn't want to get in the gutter with him and his fellow Liberals. Of course Hughes is now 'out' to one and all.
Laws plundering of public funds plumbs appalling depths. He claimed £130 pcm for utilities for years but when the rules changed and he had to produce receipts his claim dropped to £35.
I don't know how all this came into the public domain but I shouldn't be surprised if some low-paid clerk -probably a member of PCS -responsible for processing these claims was responsible for passing the details to the Telegraph, as with the previous details of MPs expenses.
A multi-millionaire cheating on his gas bill....Pass the sick bag


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> At Dunmovin's suggestion I'm opening this thread about the current UK political situation.
> My opinion....so far I'm cautiously optimistic. It seems there is a new atmoosphere of co-operation and consensus which is good. Debate seems to have largely replaced negativity.
> But this David Laws affair makes me incandescent with fury.
> This man, a multi-millionaire, is in charge of delivering cuts in public services. These are needed, true, but thousands of low-paid workers will either see their wages frozen or lose their jobs altogether.
> ...


Agreed. No one caught fiddling expenses should be in such job. IF the PSC finds against him, he should be removed from the post.

Duncan-Smith's shake up of the benefits system is long overdue and the "why work when we get more in benefits" brigade have had it way too easy for far far too long. The savings made there will go a long way to sort out the midden Messrs Brown and co. left behind.

One thing a certainly hope he does is stop the ridculous sitaution of immigrants turning up and from day one getting everything they ask for. As for reassesing those people who are on a long term illness benfit, good idea. I personally know one person who say claim to suffer from depression for the last ten years and he admits he's been faking it all along


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I'm passed caring about the private lives and scandals of MPs. They're all just greedy and selfish individuals! However, I dont think that it necessarily reflects their abilities to be good at running the country - I dont know how Laws came by his multi millions, but the fact he's capable of having that much money suggests to me that he's good with it!? As for him being gay and trying to hide it???? Duh, a hypocrite or what??! But again it doesnt affect his work IMO! If he stays in his post after this, I think we can be sure he'll be squeaky clean from now on!?

Am I being too lenient?? Its the sun getting to me LOL

Jo xxx


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

jojo said:


> I'm passed caring about the private lives and scandals of MPs. They're all just greedy and selfish individuals! However, I dont think that it necessarily reflects their abilities to be good at running the country - I dont know how Laws came by his multi millions, but the fact he's capable of having that much money suggests to me that he's good with it!? As for him being gay and trying to hide it???? Duh, a hypocrite or what??! But again it doesnt affect his work IMO! If he stays in his post after this, I think we can be sure he'll be squeaky clean from now on!?
> 
> *Am I being too lenient?? Its the sun getting to me LOL
> *
> Jo xxx


probably not Jo, I'm just a bloodthirsty ratbag where swindling politicians and lazy gits who make fraudulent claims for benefits are concerned.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

dunmovin said:


> probably not Jo, I'm just a bloodthirsty ratbag where swindling politicians and lazy gits who make fraudulent claims for benefits are concerned.


I do agree with you, it just seems to me that everyone is at it to a greater or lesser degree - I'll bet even the journalists who uncovered and wrote the story fiddle their expenses and dont declare everything on their tax returns, heck even my husband, who is the most honest and law abiding person I know does the odd cash sale at work - ok, its probably not as much as the politians and its not the countries money!! But it seems to be human nature (and not a nice one) that if one can get away with it........

Hopefully with all this publicity about it, they'll be too scared to even claim for a new pencil from now on!???!!!

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Jo.....yes, you are being too lenient. That's because you are not a vicious nasty person as I am at the moment! He made his money in the City...well, that's OK, but as the Minister in charge of cuts which will result in people losing their jobs he is not in a position of authority, to say the least.

Dunmovin...immigrants don't get benefits from Day One. They have to work and get the requisite number of NI contributions before they can qualify. 
Asylum seekers get free - not very pleasant -accommodation whilst waiting for their case to be processed and a very small amount of money to live on. They are not allowed to work.
Having said that....however, there are an awful lot of 'asylum seekers' and I suspect that many are not genuine. AS in the case of welfare recipients, the cheats make it bad for those in real need and those who really are fleeing from persecution.
And...I rented a house to a Polish woman who arrived in the UK almost the day that Poland became an EU member. (May 1st 2004). She worked until she qualified for state benefits -just under two years -then became pregnant (single mother). She stole £5k from me by intercepting a posted credit card and PIN but that's another story.
If you or I moved to Poland we would qualify for benefits in the same way but as Jerzy would tell you they would not of course be as generous to those used to existing on low incomes as are those in the UK.
IMO it was a mistake for the UK like ROI to be the only two 'old' EU states which put no restriction on EU migrant workers.
Employers of course were very happy with this state of affairs.
BTW, by PCS I meant the Union which represents these workers in Government and local authority departments but I can't remember what it stands for...Public and Commercial Services, perhaps?


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> Jo.....yes, you are being too lenient. That's because you are not a vicious nasty person as I am at the moment! He made his money in the City...well, that's OK, but as the Minister in charge of cuts which will result in people losing their jobs he is not in a position of authority, to say the least.
> 
> Dunmovin...immigrants don't get benefits from Day One. They have to work and get the requisite number of NI contributions before they can qualify.
> Asylum seekers get free - not very pleasant -accommodation whilst waiting for their case to be processed and a very small amount of money to live on. They are not allowed to work.
> ...


you are right about what PCS stands for. I was refering to the parlimentary standards commission.........PSC
as for the bogus asylum seekers... very few of the ones who failed to make acase, have ever been deported


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> I do agree with you, it just seems to me that everyone is at it to a greater or lesser degree - I'll bet even the journalists who uncovered and wrote the story fiddle their expenses and dont declare everything on their tax returns, heck even my husband, who is the most honest and law abiding person I know does the odd cash sale at work - ok, its probably not as much as the politians and its not the countries money!! But it seems to be human nature (and not a nice one) that if one can get away with it........
> 
> Hopefully with all this publicity about it, they'll be too scared to even claim for a new pencil from now on!???!!!
> 
> Jo xxx



Err...it _*is*_ the country's money...revenue - VAT or whatever -that should go to the Exchequer.
OK, it's not £millions we're talking about. But it all adds up. I can honestly say that in our businesses we NEVER took cash sales without recording them.
The problem is that it's part of a culture. The mega-rich employ tax lawyers to legitimately avoid paying taxes and then there are the many who knowingly and illicitly defraud the country of £millions. IMO they are as bad as benefit frauds.
We all do things we shouldn't - I used to take home pens, Sellotape etc. from work.....that's theft!!!
If it were all added up, though....


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

The trouble is and always has been the expenses thing in any company. I would guess that 99% of people who have an expense account abuse it one way or another. The politians have unfortunately been allowed and able to have big expense accounts and yes thats wrong and on top of that, they've been fiddling and finding the loopholes - its greed, pure and simple. Corruption and its got to stop and I think that Cameron is possibly making in roads in to that - trouble is that in the end, its gonna mean employing more people to keep a check on them all. But its human nature, we're greedy, selfish and opportunistic!!! We try not to be and some are pretty much honest - me and my OH are, but its a hard trait to monitor!

At the end of the day, tho, Laws will be very well behaved from now on (if he gets to keep his job??) and I dont think it'll affect his ability to do what he's gotta do, in fact it may help - his knowledge of deceitfulness may make him more "on the ball"!!??????

Jo xxx


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

mrypg9, maybe you have an answer to this question. 
Where in the various parties' manifestos was it anounced that when they get voted into power they will vote themselves hugh pay rises, agree obscene pension schemes and exorbitant expenses benefits?
I haven't read many (should I even advertise the fact that I actually did?) but I don't remember given prospective MPs the power to do so, so who gave them that right?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> The trouble is and always has been the expenses thing in any company. I would guess that 99% of people who have an expense account abuse it one way or another. The politians have unfortunately been allowed and able to have big expense accounts and yes thats wrong and on top of that, they've been fiddling and finding the loopholes - its greed, pure and simple. Corruption and its got to stop and I think that Cameron is possibly making in roads in to that - trouble is that in the end, its gonna mean employing more people to keep a check on them all. But its human nature, we're greedy, selfish and opportunistic!!! We try not to be and some are pretty much honest - me and my OH are, but its a hard trait to monitor!
> 
> At the end of the day, tho, Laws will be very well behaved from now on (if he gets to keep his job??) and I dont think it'll affect his ability to do what he's gotta do, in fact it may help - his knowledge of deceitfulness may make him more "on the ball"!!??????
> 
> Jo xxx


I think Laws will be toast....
Yes, the expense account culture has much to answer for. For the past ten years I've enjoyed expenses when I travelled or stayed in hotels and although I didn't deliberately abuse or make false claims I did enjoy swanning around Europe flying Business Class and staying in posh hotels, all at someone else's expense...the taxpayers, probably, as I guess that's how these things are accounted for. I certainly enjoyed things like Business Class travel and nice dinners that I would or could never have paid for myself.
That's all over now but my OH - a moral person!- was constantly pointing out that all of it was at someone else's expense.
And I have been with people who like me were on expenses running up huge bar bills and using taxis when public transport was available.
People said I was a mug for travelling from Heathrow to Central London by tube -£4 each way- rather than using the Heathrow Express -£35 return -or a taxi -too much to even contemplate!
You are right, it's a culture, an insidious one that can lead to a sense of entitlement.
My trips in future will be mainly private and most certainly on EasyJet or similar. The few 'business' trips I have made in the past year have been Economy BA as curbs are being applied to expenses and fair enough.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

JBODEN said:


> mrypg9, maybe you have an answer to this question.
> Where in the various parties' manifestos was it anounced that when they get voted into power they will vote themselves hugh pay rises, agree obscene pension schemes and exorbitant expenses benefits?
> I haven't read many (should I even advertise the fact that I actually did?) but I don't remember given prospective MPs the power to do so, so who gave them that right?


They didn't tell people anything of that kind, the dishonest swine. I don't know how salary increases, expenses etc. for MPs are calculated but it's a disgrace that they have voted benefits for themselves that they actively denied to the rest of the population.
And if some disgruntled low-paid clerk hadn't passed on to the Telegraph details of the expenses claims -duck houses, moat cleaning, second home flipping - we would never have known how we were being robbed.
I do believe that MPs should earn an attractive salary as -hopefully -we could attract the best and brightest away from lucrative careers elsewhere but with that high salary there should be NO payment of expenses for second or first homes and their maintenance.
If MPs need to live in London to do their work and of course most with constituencies outside the London area do then they could rent subsidised apartments or rooms in Government properties. As for bringing their families...well, I may sound heartless, but lots of people have to work away from their families for extended periods.
MPs are *Public Servants* after all.


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I do believe that MPs should earn an attractive salary as -hopefully -we could attract the best and brightest away from lucrative careers elsewhere but with that high salary there should be NO payment of expenses for second or first homes and their maintenance.
> If MPs need to live in London to do their work and of course most with constituencies outside the London area do then they could rent subsidised apartments or rooms in Government properties. As for bringing their families...well, I may sound heartless, but lots of people have to work away from their families for extended periods.
> MPs are *Public Servants* after all.


It takes a lot of cheek to (1) ask to be elected as an MP to help the nation and (2) then demand that we pay him/her to create a second home with *ALL *the creature comforts of home. I really don't understand why Parliament agreed to cover the interest expense on their second mortgages. What was their logic? Was it ''we are poor MP's''?

What about an alternate system of remuneration? What if political parties were given a fixed sum per MP to cover expenses for their members. I bet you the Party would keep scrupulous control of its books.

We spent a lot of time talking about UK taxpayers money/UK MPs expenses but I hate to think what is happening in Brussels! Maybe we shouldn't open that can of 'escargot'.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

JBODEN said:


> We spent a lot of time talking about UK taxpayers money/UK MPs expenses but I hate to think what is happening in Brussels! Maybe we shouldn't open that can of 'escargot'.


Indeed. And what happened to that UKIP woman who when elected as an MEP said she would expose all the fiddles and scams??? Not a word. Nic. Nada.

About twenty years ago we had a Scottish MEP, Janey Buchan, as a dinner guest. We could not believe some of the things she told us about the scandalous waste of huge sums of money. And it has got worse since then.

Incidentally, as I predicted, Laws is...toast.


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

was that Norman Buchan's wife?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> Incidentally, as I predicted, Laws is...toast.



I think thats a shame. I know what he's allegedly done was wrong, but worse than anyone else?? He was showing such promise and the situation with the coalition is working well, inspite of the predictions, but I suspect its very fragile and early days. 

I'm just fed up with the media sneaking around, scaremongering and sensationalising everything - they are getting on my nerves now! We're not run by the government, we're brainwashed and fed propaganda by the media

Jo xxxx


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> I think thats a shame. I know what he's allegedly done was wrong, but worse than anyone else?? He was showing such promise and the situation with the coalition is working well, inspite of the predictions, but I suspect its very fragile and early days.
> 
> I'm just fed up with the media sneaking around, scaremongering and sensationalising everything - they are getting on my nerves now! We're not run by the government, we're brainwashed and fed propaganda by the media
> 
> Jo xxxx


*WHAT?? *

''... he was showing such promise ..'' - if he wasn't uncovered he would have continued milking the system.

''... media sneaking around...'' - if it wasn't for the media the MPs would be screwing us even more. Love them or hate them, the media did us a favour.

The guy is a cheat! He was using taxpayers' moneys to keep his boyfriend in luxuries (apparently his boyfriend has 2 flats to rent so he isn't exactly poor).


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> the situation with the coalition is working well, inspite of the predictions, but I suspect its very fragile and early days.
> Jo xxxx


The coalition won't suffer at all. After all there were a lot of Con MPs who were caught previously, so the Cons can't claim the moral high ground.


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Incidentally, as I predicted, Laws is...toast.


Good riddance. Not only was he cheating the system he was also cheating his family. I think that he (and other cheats) should be forced to resign his seat and not be allowed to take public office for at least 10 years!


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

JBODEN said:


> Good riddance. Not only was he cheating the system he was also cheating his family. I think that he (and other cheats) should be forced to resign his seat and not be allowed to take public office for at least 10 years!


he was caught. Did the only honourable thing to do. Perhaps he should resign his seat in parliment and stand again, letting his constituants decide if his fit for public office.

However, there will be people who say that his choice of partner and his "discreet" sexual prefrernces make him an untenable candidate for the posting, but there is quite a lot of value in Jo's post, pointing out that caught once, trying would make anyone think again before dipping their hand in the cookie jar again.Ther may just be a case for "poacher, turned gamekeeper" After all who better to spot a cheat than a cheater caught?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

dunmovin said:


> was that Norman Buchan's wife?


Yes, they must both be dead now. I got to know her when we were organising a festival to commemorate Thomas Paine.
They were both very sincere, old-fashioned socialists,deeply committed to the cause. Steeped in Scottish working-class culture - in fact they were both 'cultured' in the true sense of the word.
I'm not sorry to see Laws go. Like many in his Party, he reeks of hypocrisy. When his expenses are fully investigated, we are imo likely to find out more of the same.
In this day and age who gives a toss about someone's sexuality? The fact is that he used public money to 'protect his privacy'. If he wanted to conceal the fact that he was living with his partner, why did he simply not make any claim for 'rent'? After all, he can afford it.
Laws has given a new meaning to the expression 'rent boy'.
(Sorry, that is in dubious taste, couldn't resist it though).
And we don't really know how talented he is as he has as yet done nothing on which to be judged.
Incidentally, re Gordon Brown....the international community may well be finding him sorely missed at this time of crisis in the euro zone. Whatever you may think of him, it is generally agreed that he was personally responsible for persuading world leaders to fall in line behind his bank rescue plan. The Tories had to change tack and concede this was the case. 
I fear that in his absence there is no-one of sufficient stature to co-ordinate action needed if the sovereign debt contagion isn't to spread further.
Osborne just doesn't have the experience or clout needed.


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

one thing that I'm not so sure about supporting is the axing of the eurofighter. The RAF's aging jags(Jaguars) and tonkas(Tornados) are scheduled for decommission, the harriers are almost vintage machines. Algthough they are probably the most well maintained airframes flying today, they are getting old. What will they be replaced with? Second hand FA-18's from the USA?or perhaps Russia has a few MiG 29's they want sell....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

dunmovin said:


> one thing that I'm not so sure about supporting is the axing of the eurofighter. The RAF's aging jags(Jaguars) and tonkas(Tornados) are scheduled for decommission, the harriers are almost vintage machines. Algthough they are probably the most well maintained airframes flying today, they are getting old. What will they be replaced with? Second hand FA-18's from the USA?or perhaps Russia has a few MiG 29's they want sell....


I don't have enough knowledge to comment on that. But aren't we going to have a thorough review of Defence Needs?
I'm watching England play Japan....if we can't do better than this we may as well stay in Austria.
My dog plays better football.


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## pete_l (Feb 12, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> But this David Laws affair makes me incandescent with fury.


Really, people living in Spain complaining about politicians in other countries being corrupt. :deadhorse:


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

pete_l said:


> Really, people living in Spain complaining about politicians in other countries being corrupt. :deadhorse:


we do and have the right to do so because we still pay taxes, national insurance and contribute to the country's economy and yes I still retain the right to vote in my home country


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## pete_l (Feb 12, 2010)

But there are so many more instances of corruption in Spain, yet I never see so much negative reaction to them
(That's not to say there isn't any, just much, much less than it deserves)
Matthew 7:3


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## littleredrooster (Aug 3, 2008)

pete_l said:


> But there are so many more instances of corruption in Spain, yet I never see so much negative reaction to them
> (That's not to say there isn't any, just much, much less than it deserves)
> Matthew 7:3


Because its gone on for so long its become the accepted norm.
In addition its not only people in high places involved.
Almost everyone likes a bit of fiddle, eg whenever a property changes hands.
Money in brown paper bags when the Notaria leaves the room.
In addition to tax avoidance who is to say where all the money originates?
So many jobs in public services only for friends and relations, even those without satisfactory qualifications.
Lots of companies and workers operating via a large percentage of black money.
Not so many that haven't had at least a small piece of the action somewhere along the line. 
Hence understandable that when a big scandal does hits the news channels, most Spanish simply shrug their shoulders and smile.


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

[The Times: The spokesman confirmed that he would *not *be taking the severance pay-off normally given to departing ministers. {Mr Laws was also facing questions over whether he should have declared an interest when hosting an event in the Palace of Westminster for the lobbying firm that employed Mr Lundie.}]

A few days in office and the potential of severance pay?? I wonder how much.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

pete_l said:


> But there are so many more instances of corruption in Spain, yet I never see so much negative reaction to them
> (That's not to say there isn't any, just much, much less than it deserves)
> Matthew 7:3


Well, if you want to start throwing Biblical quotes about, I could counter with the very apt' Judge not lest ye be judged' or 'Let he that is without sin cast the first stone' and many other such.
There is corruption everywhere, even the UK...the BAE Al Yamani deal? I lived in the Czech Republic where corruption is part of everyday life - I paid £200 to get a residence permit which should be free!! So I don't need to be told about corruption and neither I suspect does Dunmoven, who like me has worked abroad. Corruption in Spain is rife but the Government and judicial authorities are making an honest attempt to deal with it. Mayors and other elected and paid local government officials sit in the slammer all along the Costas as I write this. If that's not a *positive *-never mind negative -reaction I don't know what is!
I don't understand the point you are making. Surely if something is illegal, immoral, whatever, you condemn it wherever it occurs.
If you read through threads on this site you will see many posts where corruption in Spain has been addressed.
('Let thy judgment indeed be equal wherever thou findest evil'....Mary, 1:1)


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

pete_l said:


> Really, people living in Spain complaining about politicians in other countries being corrupt. :deadhorse:


I think you have misread my posts. David Laws' real 'sin' is hypocrisy.....his election leaflet boasted of his shining record on expense claims yet detailed excessive claims made by members of other Parties.
There's a reference somewhere in the scriptures to 'Pharisees and sinners', me thinks.


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