# how well do the children speak Spanish.....and English?



## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

Am I the only person here who knows British children who are growing up without being able to speak Spanish OR English properly? At school they just mix with each other. At weekends....they just mix with each other while their parents organise monoglot barbecues. In a few years they'll be unemployable in two countries. I observe that many parents who say their children are doing fine at Spanish schools can't speak Spanish themselves and are therefore in no position to judge. It is a matter of fact that Spain fares poorly in the PISA rankings and certain regions (Andalucia) fare very badly within Spain. Just remember that even the locals can't get jobs!
Coming to Spain has given *me* fantastic opportunities and a real boost in my standard of living without increasing my budget. Parents need to be aware that their gain could turn into their child's loss.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Turtles said:


> Am I the only person here who knows British children who are growing up without being able to speak Spanish OR English properly? At school they just mix with each other. At weekends....they just mix with each other while their parents organise monoglot barbecues. In a few years they'll be unemployable in two countries. I observe that many parents who say their children are doing fine at Spanish schools can't speak Spanish themselves and are therefore in no position to judge. It is a matter of fact that Spain fares poorly in the PISA rankings and certain regions (Andalucia) fare very badly within Spain. Just remember that even the locals can't get jobs!
> Coming to Spain has given *me* fantastic opportunities and a real boost in my standard of living without increasing my budget. Parents need to be aware that their gain could turn into their child's loss.



I agree. The first state school that my daughter attended in Spain had a fair few British kids, who very often didnt turn up for school cos their parents were still in bed from a previous boozy night. It almost seemed to me like the school for those parents was no more than free babysitting! The Spanish children there, didnt like the British kids, so there was always a divide. My daughter got stuck in the middle. The British kids didnt like her cos they thought she was snobbish and the Spanish kids didnt cos she was just another Brit.

There are exceptions to the rule of course, and with the changing face of expats in Spain (gone are those days of making money by doing very little). Things are changing.

It does have to be pointed out tho, that if children attend a Spanish school then their British education stops. I have friends whose children cant spell or read English any better than when they last attended a British school. So its the parents responsibility to teach the English side of education and to do it well

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

There was a feature in the press about it recently, it is apparently quite common in the Brit-zones.

There are only three British children where I live and they are all bilingual. In fact they are trilingual, because they speak Alcalaino as well! It's quite entertaining hearing them switch mid-sentence.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Found this from the TES, 2009:

Overseas education: British kids experience education problems in Spain - Analysis - TES



> Foreigners who dominate certain schools, talk in their own language and isolate themselves from the native population … Not Muslim pupils in Britain, but British children in Spain.
> 
> They come here with this mentality … wanting to keep themselves to themselves and feel no obligation to integrate into our way of life.”
> 
> ...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Turtles said:


> Am I the only person here who knows British children who are growing up without being able to speak Spanish OR English properly? At school they just mix with each other. At weekends....they just mix with each other while their parents organise monoglot barbecues. In a few years they'll be unemployable in two countries. I observe that many parents who say their children are doing fine at Spanish schools can't speak Spanish themselves and are therefore in no position to judge. It is a matter of fact that Spain fares poorly in the PISA rankings and certain regions (Andalucia) fare very badly within Spain. Just remember that even the locals can't get jobs!
> Coming to Spain has given *me* fantastic opportunities and a real boost in my standard of living without increasing my budget. Parents need to be aware that their gain could turn into their child's loss.


I've moved this to a thread of its own, since it has nothing to do with the thread you posted it on, but is interesting in it's own right 

I do know children such as you describe 

I know kids who have been telling their parents for years that when their report says 'suspendido' it means they don't have to study that subject...............

the parents (some of whom have been here longer than we have) never really learn the language but think that their kids are fluent speakers when they say things like _yo vivir_ - & yes, the main reason for this is that they live in what my 16 year old calls a 'Brit bubble'.

they watch English TV, read English newspapers/magazines, only ever mix with other English speakers - they can in fact _speak_ English well, but probably can't write it to a reasonable level - and refuse to speak Spanish outside the classroom unless forced to

they don't mix with Spanish kids at all - 2 English girls my dd invited to her birthday party (all the other guests were Spanish), didn't even mix at the party - even though they had all known each other for upwards of 4 years 

they have nothing in common with them - they don't watch the same TV programmes (they have no idea who Trancas y Barrancas are & have never heard of Los Protegidos), read the same magazines or listen to a lot of the same music.....


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Perhaps they should be repatriated back to where they came from - they are obviously a drain on the system!


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

We do not have that problem here, British children have not yet invaded our shores

I know of one boy who was born here of Germanic parentage, he cannot speak German and insists he is Herreño. His elder brother, born a German, schooled here, is bi lingual. I had to employ the services of the elder one, we conversed in Spanish.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Hepa said:


> We do not have that problem here, British children have not yet invaded our shores
> 
> I know of one boy who was born here of Germanic parentage, he cannot speak German and insists he is Herreño. His elder brother, born a German, schooled here, is bi lingual. I had to employ the services of the elder one, we conversed in Spanish.


I think it's quite sad that his parents didn't at least teach him to _speak_ German, tbh

mine weren't born here, but for sure consider themselves more Spanish than English, & my younger dd was only 4 when we came so Spanish is really her first _written_ language, since she hadn't long been learning to read & write in English when she started Spanish school - but taking her dyslexia into account, her written English & her reading are about where they should be for her age - & I believe she has a better vocabulary than English kids in the UK from what I've seen of her cousins of a similar age there.


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

My grandchildren are fluent in Spanish and use it to talk about their dad in front of him.. he does speak Spanish but of course the children can speak quickly and know all the street jargon.. he huffs and puffs when they all keep looking at him whilst chatting in Spanish lol. They of course also do it just to wind him up.


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## leedsutdgem (Jun 3, 2010)

Turtles said:


> Am I the only person here who knows British children who are growing up without being able to speak Spanish OR English properly? At school they just mix with each other. At weekends....they just mix with each other while their parents organise monoglot barbecues. In a few years they'll be unemployable in two countries. I observe that many parents who say their children are doing fine at Spanish schools can't speak Spanish themselves and are therefore in no position to judge. It is a matter of fact that Spain fares poorly in the PISA rankings and certain regions (Andalucia) fare very badly within Spain. Just remember that even the locals can't get jobs!
> Coming to Spain has given me fantastic opportunities and a real boost in my standard of living without increasing my budget. Parents need to be aware that their gain could turn into their child's loss.


This is something I was talking about with friends the other day actually. i would love to know how many children where both parent are british go on to further eduction in spain? Would be interesting to see the figures. Im irish and my husband is spanish, we are integrated more into the spanish way of life. My children are 5 and 3 and its gonna be up to me and me alone to teach them how to read and write in english. Their first language will always be spanish. I do however want my children to be able to cope in spain and in the uk should we have to go back there. Its something i think about a lot. I feel that its important to have a good balance of both cultures.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> I think it's quite sad that his parents didn't at least teach him to _speak_ German, tbh


No not sad, his mother is at least tri-lingual, I often heard her speaking to the younger one in German, he would always answer in Spanish. He always insisted he was Spanish and refused to speak in German, obstinate little git that he is!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Hepa said:


> No not sad, his mother is at least tri-lingual, I often heard her speaking to the younger one in German, he would always answer in Spanish. He always insisted he was Spanish and refused to speak in German, obstinate little git that he is!


well at least they tried!


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

I teach English (ande sciences and maths) to both Spanish kids and English kids. The parents of the English kids I teach employ me because the English lessons they receive in Spanish schools are quite often appalling. We know several English families with children under 7 years of age and they are all bi-lingual. My Spanish isn't good enough to know how good theirs is but my English certainly is. I suspect our lad, once he is in the Spanish state school system, will be very pleased to learn that he will be home schooled in English and any other subjects I feel he is missing out on. Having said that, in our area, and I've said it before on this forum, the Spanish state school system is far in advance over anything you can receive in UK, outside of private education.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

How many parents intent on moving to Spain really think through the problems their children may encounter? What will those ten year olds be able to do when they are eighteen, will they be up to full time higher education in Spain, will they be up to full time higher education in the UK? I think the lure of Sun, Sea and Sand can blinker some folk and or certainly blur judgement.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

bob_bob said:


> How many parents intent on moving to Spain really think through the problems their children may encounter? What will those ten year olds be able to do when they are eighteen, will they be up to full time higher education in Spain, will they be up to full time higher education in the UK? I think the lure of Sun, Sea and Sand can blinker some folk and or certainly blur judgement.


I think this about sums it up.

I have been appalled for the last 12 years at the way some British parents have treated their kids here in Spain. They have practically no chance of going on to Uni or doing anything useful with their lives. The few I know who have done very well and are now at Uni in the UK were schooled very expensively at international schools.

Some comments by previous posters have surprised me though. I haven't come across too much segregation of Brits - possibly because around here they are very much in a minority. They all seem to have pretty good Spanish and hang out with Spanish kids. 

That won't help them get on in life though...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jimenato said:


> I think this about sums it up.
> 
> I have been appalled for the last 12 years at the way some British parents have treated their kids here in Spain. They have practically no chance of going on to Uni or doing anything useful with their lives. The few I know who have done very well and are now at Uni in the UK were schooled very expensively at international schools.
> 
> ...


do none of those who go through the state system go on to uni in Spain?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> do none of those who go through the state system go on to uni in Spain?


 To go snobbish for a moment. Alot of those kids dont get that sort of encouragement or aspiration from their parents. Certainly the ones I came across at Rubys first school. 

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> To go snobbish for a moment. Alot of those kids dont get that sort of encouragement or aspiration from their parents. Certainly the ones I came across at Rubys first school.
> 
> Jo xxx


I don't think it's snobbish -I think it's a sad fact that perhaps the majority don't get the encouragement - but those I know in that position would have failed in the UK too, I'm pretty certain


I just wondered if _any_ of those in Jimenato's area in the state system _do_ succeed, when there are fewer of them & they seem to mix better


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

xabiachica said:


> do none of those who go through the state system go on to uni in Spain?



My eldest will certainly be going to uni here in Spain. As for the other two - we'll have to wait and see what they want.

All three are tri-lingual and have no English friends.

Like others have said, I wouldn't know if their Spanish (and/or Valencian) was good but they are all towards the top of their class when it comes to exams. So I guess their doing OK.


However, I will admit that their English is not as good as I would like. I do my bit (as much as I can) - luckily, I believe that I have a good level of English so I do as much as I can for them. But I still worry - if they have to go back to UK for work, will their English let them down? (I doubt it somehow having seen the level of some posters on here:eyebrows.


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## donz (May 5, 2010)

I have to say I think here it very much depends on if the kids go to state or private school as to the standard of teaching they receive as well as the standard of encouragement they get at home

all 3 of my nieces/nephews went to state school, got crap marks for both reasons 

Many of my clients kids go to private schools and are doing very well and in both languages.

Some friends of mine teach in a private school and also see a big difference


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

University education it seems is almost mandatory in this day and age. 

Thank goodness I was born in the 1940's, when only posh people went to university and normal people worked, I hated school, one of the best days of my life was the day I left.

People here are still in full time education when they are over 20, I have to admire their resilience, but in no way whatsoever do I envy them.

Must be awful, when do they fledge and gain independence? I managed aged 16 attended the National Sea Training School in Gravesend in Kent, seven weeks later I was on board the T.S.S. Corfu, bound for Hong Kong. What a life!


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> do none of those who go through the state system go on to uni in Spain?


It's a good question which I can't answer right now - I'll get back to you.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jimenato said:


> It's a good question which I can't answer right now - I'll get back to you.


thanks

some from around here do go onto uni here - my elder dd will & at the moment the younger one (13) intends to

but admittedly they are a minority


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

I have been able, through teaching English to pre University students, to witness first hand the level of education Spanish kids receive at school and then into university and I am nothing but very impressed. Apart from private schools in UK someone tell me where you will find 10 yr olds being taught advance concepts such as single cell division and sexual reproduction in all forms of life? Advanced calculus at 14 and quantum physics at 13?? None of the state schools where I lived in UK would consider such things until at least 16. The maths is also at a very high level with advanced trigonometry, algebra etc being taught from 12 years of age. We live in Andalucia and having struggled with two girls going through the state school system in UK I am nothing but happy that our boy won't have to experience such dreadful teaching methods. One of my students, who is 10, is taught at a Spanish school where the majority of lessons are given in English because the school recognises the importance of a second language for their future. Poor kid!! I do my best and give remedial homework lessons as her English really isn't up to the structure and complexity of the lessons, but she will get there as she is very determined. And I will do everything I can to help.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

thrax said:


> I have been able, through teaching English to pre University students, to witness first hand the level of education Spanish kids receive at school and then into university and I am nothing but very impressed. Apart from private schools in UK someone tell me where you will find 10 yr olds being taught advance concepts such as single cell division and sexual reproduction in all forms of life? Advanced calculus at 14 and quantum physics at 13?? None of the state schools where I lived in UK would consider such things until at least 16. The maths is also at a very high level with advanced trigonometry, algebra etc being taught from 12 years of age. We live in Andalucia and having struggled with two girls going through the state school system in UK I am nothing but happy that our boy won't have to experience such dreadful teaching methods. One of my students, who is 10, is taught at a Spanish school where the majority of lessons are given in English because the school recognises the importance of a second language for their future. Poor kid!! I do my best and give remedial homework lessons as her English really isn't up to the structure and complexity of the lessons, but she will get there as she is very determined. And I will do everything I can to help.


I totally agree about the level of education - I too can make a direct comparison with maths

until last year I tutored GCSE maths & also maths to English kids in the Spanish system who were struggling

an 11/12 year old in the first year of secondary here will be studying things not covered in the GCSE syllabus, & a 16 year old graduating here will have covered a lot of the A level syllabus

maths is the only subject I can compare directly - but I'd be very surprised if it was the only subject in which this is the case


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## agua642 (May 24, 2009)

My daughter has attended Spanish state school all her life, in Sept she will be doing Bachillerato afán in Spanish state school, it's going to be very hard work especially with all the edu cut backs! and classes with 40 pupils in !However she will be well prepped up for Spanish University which she defiantly wants to attend

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## Cazzy (Nov 23, 2008)

When we moved here my son was 13. I thought it highly unfair to put him in a Spanish school at that age (we live inland ,so no international schools). We asked him what he wanted to do, we would either stay in the UK until he had finished his education, or he could go to boarding school in the UK, He chose boarding school and has done very well. He has just finished a degree and walked straight into a graduate job with airbus. If he had not settled at boarding school we would have returned to the UK until his education had finished!!

I think education is very important and it is the parents duty to help provide it. I do realise that boarding school is expensive and not everyone can afford it, and yes we struggled!!

There are a few Brit kids in our village and my OH offered to teach them English (free) The parents were not interested and questioned why their children needed it in Spain!! Since then a couple of the families have returned to the UK with children that can hardly read or write English! What future do these children have?? The narrow mindedness of their parents has probably destined them to a life of poorly paid jobs, if they manage to get one at all!!


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## sadlybroke (Jun 19, 2012)

Cazzy said:


> There are a few Brit kids in our village and my OH offered to teach them English (free) The parents were not interested and questioned why their children needed it in Spain!! Since then a couple of the families have returned to the UK with children that can hardly read or write English! What future do these children have??


I know several children up to the age of 12 who moved to the UK from countries like Slovakia or Poland, without being able to say a word in English. All of them struggle initially but after a year or two they are nearly as fluent in English as UK born kids. I suppose these British children, once they are back in the UK, should be able to pick up English reading, spelling and grammar pretty quickly.

Having said that, I do agree that their parents' attitude is wrong. Our children are in pre-school age and when we move to Spain in Spetember we want to find an English tutor for regular English lessons so that they do not loose their language skills but improve.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hepa said:


> University education it seems is almost mandatory in this day and age.
> 
> Thank goodness I was born in the 1940's, when only posh people went to university and normal people worked, I hated school, one of the best days of my life was the day I left.
> 
> ...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Cazzy said:


> highly !! Since then a couple of the families have returned to the UK with children that can hardly read or write English! What future do these children have?? The narrow mindedness of their parents has probably destined them to a life of poorly paid jobs, if they manage to get one at all!!



They will fit in well, sadly, as many UK school leavers are barely articulate, numerate and literate.
The general standard of written English is quite dreadful, considering the money spent on education.
You only have to consider some of the posts on this Forum to see that's true.


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## jonmlb748 (Oct 30, 2011)

my 10 year old stepdaughter speaks 4languages after four years here,my 4 year old speaks English ,Catalan and Spanish.they watch cartoons in all three languages.i personally think they are having a fantastic opportunity to get on in life .there are twenty plus nations in their school.all mixing playing.the teachers have all been excellent and dedicated.we couldn't be happier with their progress and school reports. bravo c.p xaloc in calvia!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> the parents (some of whom have been here longer than we have) never really learn the language but think that their kids are fluent speakers when they say things like _yo vivir_ - & yes, the main reason for this is that they live in what my 16 year old calls a 'Brit bubble'.


I've come across this with proud Spanish parents who have shown me their child's after school English class book with very well scrawled across sentences like I like very much the cats.

It almost made me cry. Not well off parents making huge efforts to send their kids to extra classes, where their children were never going to get past false beginner stage. However, I think things are improving.
But, to keep in mind, if you don't speak the language it is difficult to assess how well your child is being taught unless you have officially recognised exams like the Cambridge in English or in Spanish the DELE. There are the Escuela Oficial exams as well, but...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> I think it's a sad fact that perhaps the majority don't get the encouragement - but those I know in that position would have failed in the UK too, I'm pretty certain
> 
> 
> I just wondered if _any_ of those in Jimenato's area in the state system _do_ succeed, when there are fewer of them & they seem to mix better


I've met some great people in my work as an English teacher - and I've met my fair share of "troubled souls" too. What I mean is that there will always be those who feel that the way to find the end to their problems is to go/ escape to another country. Of course it doesn't work like that and their problems - financial, personal, mental - catch up with them. So many of those who fail in Spain would have failed in the UK anyway, as xabia says.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I've come across this with proud Spanish parents who have shown me their child's after school English class book with very well scrawled across sentences like I like very much the cats.
> 
> It almost made me cry. Not well off parents making huge efforts to send their kids to extra classes, where their children were never going to get past false beginner stage. However, I think things are improving.
> But, to keep in mind, if you don't speak the language it is difficult to assess how well your child is being taught unless you have officially recognised exams like the Cambridge in English or in Spanish the DELE. There are the Escuela Oficial exams as well, but...


I know exactly what you mean 

the teacher who teaches high level English to the Brit kids at my girls' school speaks amazing English, but sadly some of the others don't 

there was an English teacher in primary who failed dd1 on an exam so I went in to see her - dd1 totally deserved to fail (it was a grammar exam & she hadn't studied for it so.........)

however, the teacher actually spoke so little English I doubted that she'd have even been able to order a coffee & I mentioned it to the head one day when _we _ were having coffee - she wasn't there the following term but I'm sure she was still teaching English somewhere else 

at the academy where I used to teach, the German owner taught some English classes to children (that way she didn't have to pay anyone else to do it) - I went into her classroom one day & saw the work on display & it was dreadful


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

donz said:


> I have to say I think here it very much depends on if the kids go to state or private school as to the standard of teaching they receive as well as the standard of encouragement they get at home
> 
> all 3 of my nieces/nephews went to state school, got crap marks for both reasons
> 
> ...


My husband and his 4 brothers and sisters all went to private religious schools and all did very well, but they would have done anyway with a well off, large, supportive family behind them.
On the other hand, the mental torture that went on the in the French priest run school that the boys went to... 
Nowadays the family tradition continues and the children all go to private schools, some to the same French school (minus mental torture I think) and some to the American school. They all have excellent language abilities, and the rest is on a par with a state school IMO. I have to say as well that even though the money is available for these kids to go to private school there is a certain amount of snob value that comes into play here. The other big reason for sending them was for the language.
My daughter, in the poor section of the family, went to state school all her life (as she would have done wherever or whatever as OH and I are staunch believers in state education) and hasn't wanted for anything, except perhaps language training which was lacking, especially in the younger years. She had lots of opportunities to travel, to go to science fairs, to go on theatre trips etc, more than her cousins did, and has had her fair share of excellent, mediocre and bad teaching, the same as her cousins.
I forgot to mention that one boy who is the same age as my daughter, and so left school this year aged 18 was the typical failing student, the same as you get in many state schools, very capable, just not motivated, so for he last 2 years of his schooling, on top of the school fees his parents were paying, he also had a private tutor.... It's not just state school kids who need private classes.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

thrax said:


> I have been able, through teaching English to pre University students, to witness first hand the level of education Spanish kids receive at school and then into university and I am nothing but very impressed. Apart from private schools in UK someone tell me where you will find 10 yr olds being taught advance concepts such as single cell division and sexual reproduction in all forms of life? Advanced calculus at 14 and quantum physics at 13?? None of the state schools where I lived in UK would consider such things until at least 16. The maths is also at a very high level with advanced trigonometry, algebra etc being taught from 12 years of age. We live in Andalucia and having struggled with two girls going through the state school system in UK I am nothing but happy that our boy won't have to experience such dreadful teaching methods. One of my students, who is 10, is taught at a Spanish school where the majority of lessons are given in English because the school recognises the importance of a second language for their future. Poor kid!! I do my best and give remedial homework lessons as her English really isn't up to the structure and complexity of the lessons, but she will get there as she is very determined. And I will do everything I can to help.


There I think you have highlighted two basic problems with state education.
1. The level of work expected of the children. Don't forget the classes are not streamed. Therefore everybody is expected to reach this high level of education at the same time. Could this not be one of the reasons for the high level of failure in Spanish schools? Some kids are just never going to get A level maths, and it will not contribute to their quality of life in any way. I certainly think a lot of what my daughter had to cope with could have been chucked out the window and some more practical or creative input could have been introduced.
2. Bi or tri lingual education can be great - but it can be a nightmare and IMO should be an option, not an imposition. In the Basque country it's almost impossible for children to be educated with no Basque input. In my OH's generation very few speak Basque so the children are in a Spanish speaking home environment and their outer environment, in Bilbao anyway, is also Spanish speaking, so life is difficult for these kids if they are not good language learners. 
We have friends with 2 sons, both having difficulties with this system for different reasons. Bi lingual education for them hasn't been a gift, but an obstacle. Not everyone is cut out for it, and that should be recognised.


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## agua642 (May 24, 2009)

All in all every child student's experience is different, it all depends on the Individual, the parents patience & willingness to support, and the teachers it's a mix bag of all 3. studying can be & is difficult and challenging! however I do think British kids who have studied in the Spanish systems have as much opportunities in there future to be as successful as any kid who has studied in UK system, in fact the experience may have been more pleasant  
My daughter and all her friends have never had a problem attending school, certain subjects she has struggled with like all students but socially her experience in General has been good.
saying that I bet she can't wait to finish Bach 6th form)

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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

I've kind of hijacked this thread.
I can't comment on British children in Spanish education 'cos I don't know any.
Apologies to OP


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

It is interesting that two of my students (aged 17 and 18) say that they cannot understand a word their Spanish English teacher utters when speaking in English. She only uses Spanish pronunciation rules when speaking in English. None of my students, at whatever level, were taught that words in English beginning with the letter S are not pronounced, for example, eschool. Also similar difficulties with the letter V, letter i and the ed ending.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

thrax said:


> It is interesting that two of my students (aged 17 and 18) say that they cannot understand a word their Spanish English teacher utters when speaking in English. She only uses Spanish pronunciation rules when speaking in English. None of my students, at whatever level, were taught that words in English beginning with the letter S are not pronounced, for example, eschool. Also similar difficulties with the letter V, letter i and the ed ending.


we have two 13 year old Spanish girls staying with us at the moment

girl 1 speaks amazing English - not perfectly, but her pronunciation_ is_ as near as dammit perfect, albeit with a slight American accent - she uses the uses the language change facility on the TV & watches a lot of programmes in the original English. She actually goes to a Spanish/German bilingual school in Valencia - but prefers to speak English




girl 2 has been studying English at school since infants - poor kid barely understands a word you say to her, let alone is able to speak more than a few words, & I've had to repeatedly tell her to stop saying 'shesh' (yes) to everything & admit it when she doesn't understand & I'll find another way of saying it

we discovered at the dinner table last night that if my dd & girl 1 speak to each other in German, girl 2 thinks they are speaking English 

I've very often said that continued exposure to a language at a young age can be more helpful than any number of lessons....& I think that proves my point

one thing that really bothered me though, was that she tells us that if they sneeze at school, their English teacher has told them that in England we would say 'Jesus' & put our hands together as if praying & slightly bow the head :confused2:

a bit like this I suppose...


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## agua642 (May 24, 2009)

Lol I guess unless one is Native or lived in another Country all there lives there will be pronunciation problems

Sent from my iPhone using ExpatForum


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> a bit like this I suppose...


Really xabia, sounds like you're a bit out of touch with Real England. I bet you've forgotten that we eat cream tea every Friday sitting in the lotus position, haven't you?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Really xabia, sounds like you're a bit out of touch with Real England. I bet you've forgotten that we eat cream tea every Friday sitting in the lotus position, haven't you?


oh yeah.......


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

SWMBO says that a number of kids she gets just haven't a clue about pronunciation, let alone the simplest of verb tenses. When you look at the failures and the remedials she gets during the summer, they mostly have the same one or two teachers at school. They are expected to take exams on stuff they have never seen because the teacher doesn't follow the text book (maybe he/she doesn't understand, either).

Some of these OUP text books that they have to work with are atrocious. They use the shortened form of verbs (I've, you're, I'm, don't, etc.) from the start and when they are faced with "Am I not..." or "Are you not...", they can't relate them to the proper verbs. Ask them to conjugate the present tense of the verb "to be" and one is met with a blank wall.

One of the problems that is completely overlooked with the education system is aptitude for a subject. They are all plunged into the same melting pot but nobody checks whether that is where they should be. I am fortunate in that I can cope with most subjects including mathematics, languages, sciences, technology, etc. SWMBO - languages: fantastic, medicine: excellent; but maths and to some extent science - hopeless. The suegra - languages: excellent; maths - not bad; but science and technology - absolutely hopeless. It is all a question of aptitudes.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> Some of these OUP text books that they have to work with are atrocious. They use the shortened form of verbs (I've, you're, I'm, don't, etc.) from the start and when they are faced with "Am I not..." or "Are you not...", they can't relate them to the proper verbs. Ask them to conjugate the present tense of the verb "to be" and one is met with a blank wall.


But doesn't it depend on what their goal is? If it's (sorry, it is) to work in customer-facing situations with English speakers, and help them get a job, surely it's better to focus on conversational English? Nobody says "Are you not" in real life.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> But doesn't it depend on what their goal is? If it's (sorry, it is) to work in customer-facing situations with English speakers, and help them get a job, surely it's better to focus on conversational English? Nobody says "Are you not" in real life.


there is, thankfully IMO, a trend now towards teaching English as it is spoken, rather than 'textbook' English

I do agree that it's important to get some basics right though - & conjugating 'to be' is pretty basic..........

I also completely agree that pretty much _no-one_ says 'are you not'................


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## robinandriz (Jul 14, 2012)

whys my posts been deleted?? :S


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

robinandriz said:


> whys my posts been deleted?? :S


You've got your own thread about special needs education


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

robinandriz said:


> whys my posts been deleted?? :S


they haven't - they're here http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/118911-special-needs-education.html

I thought the topic deserved a thread of its own - for some reason the 'redirect' option went awol though :confused2:


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## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

Not only with pronunciation it would seem but also with grammar.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> But doesn't it depend on what their goal is? If it's (sorry, it is) to work in customer-facing situations with English speakers, and help them get a job, surely it's better to focus on conversational English? Nobody says "Are you not" in real life.


I said it about an hour ago to Sandra!!

My words were: 'But are you not going to get the new blind fixed today?'

I think my spoken English does tend to the formal...I like words. But you are right...few people use such constructions these days.

Language is first and foremost a tool for communication and in work-related situations you need to 'fit in' with what kind of language is needed to achieve your aim.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I said it about an hour ago to Sandra!!
> 
> My words were: 'But are you not going to get the new blind fixed today?'
> 
> ...


I think most teens would come out with smth like 
Ain't you gonna get the new blind fixed today, innit (mate/ bro)?
PS There is smth fundamentally wrong in that sentence ie new blind and fixed????


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

My vets wife speaks & writes very good English . Unfortunately if you speak to her in English she has no idea what you are saying, even if you speak slowly & annunciate correctly. Speak in Spanish & she will reply perfectly in English !


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> PS There is smth fundamentally wrong in that sentence ie new blind and fixed????


Yes - I spotted that and also 'get it fixed' implies that someone else is going to do it - on a Sunday?:confused2:

Perhaps we ought to get out a bit more Pesky...


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> My vets wife speaks & writes very good English . Unfortunately if you speak to her in English she has no idea what you are saying, even if you speak slowly & annunciate correctly. Speak in Spanish & she will reply perfectly in English !


I'm like that with Spanish. I can say what I want and with a reasonable accent but I often have difficulty understanding what's said to me. I have many conversations where a Spanish person speaks English to me and I speak Spanish to them.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I said it about an hour ago to Sandra!!
> 
> My words were: 'But are you not going to get the new blind fixed today?'
> 
> ...


My late father had an intense dislike of Americanisms and always told me off if I said "fixed" instead of "mended".


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> My late father had an intense dislike of Americanisms and always told me off if I said "fixed" instead of "mended".


 Dont they mean different things?? To "fix" a new blind in place or to "mend" it????? No?? Americanism is just really just corrupt English, afterall our forefathers took our language there, mixed it up with some other languages and it evolved. I cant say I like the sound of that American twang, but hey, thats just a personal thing

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jojo said:


> Dont they mean different things?? To "fix" a new blind in place or to "mend" it????? No?? Americanism is just really just corrupt English, afterall our forefathers took our language there, mixed it up with some other languages and it evolved. I cant say I like the sound of that American twang, but hey, thats just a personal thing
> 
> Jo xxx


I think his point was that Americans say fix when they mean repair. Fix in British English originally meant to make something permanent, e.g. fix it in place or fix the date of a meeting.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> I think his point was that Americans say fix when they mean repair. Fix in British English originally meant to make something permanent, e.g. fix it in place or fix the date of a meeting.


aahh - but when we lived in Florida I clearly remember being confused when a neighbour asked if I had the 'fixings' to make lasagna - in other words the ingredients :confused2:


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> Dont they mean different things?? To "fix" a new blind in place or to "mend" it????? No?? Americanism is just really just corrupt English, afterall our forefathers took our language there, mixed it up with some other languages and it evolved. I cant say I like the sound of that American twang, but hey, thats just a personal thing
> 
> Jo xxx


Good job Halydia's not on here anymore!
American English isn't corrupt English, it's a development of UK English. In many places like New England they use terms that we have discarded in our "modern" English.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jimenato said:


> Yes - I spotted that and also 'get it fixed' implies that someone else is going to do it - on a Sunday?:confused2:
> 
> Perhaps we ought to get out a bit more Pesky...


Ah Ha! 
I too noticed the reference to Sunday, and thought that either they were slave traders making their gardener chappie work in inhumane conditions (boiling hot sun) and on the weekend, OR that Mary, horror of horrors, was using the language loosely!!!

I say we present ourselves on her doorstep and demand an explanation OR vast amounts of Martini Blanco (which I have recently discovered, even better with just a drop of gin, which I believe she may have a small stock pile of...)


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> I think his point was that Americans say fix when they mean repair. Fix in British English originally meant to make something permanent, e.g. fix it in place or fix the date of a meeting.


 Ah, well, a fix in the area of town where I work in the UK is actually something else completely different - but a very common practice 

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> Ah, well, a fix in the area of town where I work in the UK is actually something else completely different - but a very common practice
> 
> Jo xxx


Amazing what a difference there is between a verb and a noun


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Amazing what a difference there is between a verb and a noun


So many speakers of the language and, indeed, teachers can't tell the difference. It is very important when one tries to learn Spanish. For example:

Adjectives
As you will be aware, by now, adjectives in Spanish have to agree both in gender and number with the noun they are modifying. That is the easy bit but it can sometimes be confusing knowing which word is an adjective and which isn’t. This is particularly the case with verbal adjectives, i.e. adjectives derived from verbs.

Many verbal adjectives are the same word in English as a past participle or the preterite tense, e.g. “painted”. Now in English this doesn’t create any problems since there are no genders and, in general, the adjectives do not vary with the number of objects being described.

Examples:
1.	The painted faces on these clocks are incorrect. (“painted” is an adjective)
2.	The faces that I have painted on these clocks are incorrect. (“painted” is a past participle)
3.	I painted the faces on those clocks incorrectly. (“painted” is the preterite tense)
When we come to translate these sentences into Spanish, we cannot use the exact same word.
1.	Las caras pintadas en estos relojes no son correctos.
2.	Las caras que he pintado en estos relojes no son correctos.
3.	Pinté las caras en esos relojes incorrectamente.
In the Spanish statements: 
1.	“painted” has to agree in gender and number with “caras” because it is an adjective, hence “pintadas”. 
2.	“painted” is a past participle and doesn’t change, hence “pintado”. 
3.	“painted” is in the preterite tense and doesn’t change with number or gender of the object of the verb.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> So many speakers of the language and, indeed, teachers can't tell the difference. It is very important when one tries to learn Spanish. For example:
> 
> Adjectives
> As you will be aware, by now, adjectives in Spanish have to agree both in gender and number with the noun they are modifying. That is the easy bit but it can sometimes be confusing knowing which word is an adjective and which isn’t. This is particularly the case with verbal adjectives, i.e. adjectives derived from verbs.
> ...


& that is why so many of my students have given up with other teachers.............

you make it sound so complicated


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> & that is why so many of my students have given up with other teachers.............
> 
> you make it sound so complicated


It is part of a text intended to clear up confusions in the minds of English speakers who are learning Spanish.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> It is part of a text intended to clear up confusions in the minds of English speakers who are learning Spanish.


it still makes it sound complicated - whoever wrote it!


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> it still makes it sound complicated - whoever wrote it!


Actually to me that list of examples makes perfect sense.
But I'm a bit of a grammar buff when it comes to learning languages. I cannot learn without understanding grammar.
But for those wanting to learn how to converse in Spanish, I agree, it makes things more complicated.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> It is part of a text intended to clear up confusions in the minds of English speakers who are learning Spanish.


I was never good at grammar so it wouldn't help me, and language teaching in general has changed as I'm sure you're aware. Nowadays there tends to be less grammatical analysis and more focus on the function of the language - asking for something, making an offer, giving an order etc
Some people will always appreciate a good solid grammatical approach however, and there's room for all styles of explaining and learning.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

.... don't get me started on adverbs either. Why are we so intent on loosing them?


Example that I heard recently; "He did that quick."


No, he may have done it "quickly" but not "quick" !!


I know that English is a modern language and therefore, an evolving language, but I really would miss adverbs!

[How sad am I.]


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Solwriter said:


> Actually to me that list of examples makes perfect sense.
> But I'm a bit of a grammar buff when it comes to learning languages. I cannot learn without understanding grammar.
> But for those wanting to learn how to converse in Spanish, I agree, it makes things more complicated.


you are a rare bird though, aren't you?

I love grammar too - but very few of my students understand it - even a few former teachers..............


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Amazing what a difference there is between a verb and a noun


Ah, but any noun can be verbed...


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> .... don't get me started on adverbs either. Why are we so intent on loosing  them?
> 
> 
> Example that I heard recently; "He did that quick."
> ...


Well don't fire them like arrows from a bow then... (I'm sadder than you)


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jimenato said:


> Ah, but any noun can be verbed...


Well, no they can't actually, but here's Calvin and Hobbs on the subject


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

My children speak spanish worse than native spanish speakers, speak english worse than native english speakers and speak french worse than native french speakers. SOmetimes they mix the three in one single sentence. Sometimes they also throw one or two arabic words in between. 

Crazy.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think most teens would come out with smth like
> Ain't you gonna get the new blind fixed today, innit (mate/ bro)?
> PS There is smth fundamentally wrong in that sentence ie new blind and fixed????


Fixed as permanently screwed in place??

I remember once years ago one of my students asking if she could stay behind after school to do something or other. Knowing her mother would be picking up her younger brother from the junior school I said she should find or wait for her mother, explain and ask permission.

She retirned a few minutes later and said 'Mum come'.

Which I assumed meant she had gone to the junior school gates, found her mother, explained the situation and received permission...

Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings....


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> So many speakers of the language and, indeed, teachers can't tell the difference. It is very important when one tries to learn Spanish. For example:
> 
> Adjectives
> As you will be aware, by now, adjectives in Spanish have to agree both in gender and number with the noun they are modifying. That is the easy bit but it can sometimes be confusing knowing which word is an adjective and which isn’t. This is particularly the case with verbal adjectives, i.e. adjectives derived from verbs.
> ...


*Correctas *is also an adjective and in this case as it refers to *las caras *should also agree in gender!!
Knowledge of grammer certainly makes teaching English to Spaniards much easier than teaching Spanish to Brits. I have had students of many ages but the only ones who had had a good grounding in English grammer during their education were people of over 60. I think here children are taught grammer very well, although I don't understand why they change the names of things!! However, gallego is even worse, they not only change the names but the rules, too!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

anles said:


> *Correctas *is also an adjective and in this case as it refers to *las caras *should also agree in gender!!
> Knowledge of grammer certainly makes teaching English to Spaniards much easier than teaching Spanish to Brits. I have had students of many ages but the only ones who had had a good grounding in English grammer during their education were people of over 60. I think here children are taught grammer very well, although I don't understand why they change the names of things!! However, gallego is even worse, they not only change the names but the rules, too!


Well spotted!!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> Well spotted!!


yes, she's right - but I for one didn't notice because I couldn't be bothered to read it all because it was soooooooooooooo long-winded -& I actually _like _ grammar.........


which sort of proves my point -if _I _couldn't be bothered, then a student of Spanish with no interest in grammar for sure wouldn't read it, or learn anything from it


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> yes, she's right - but I for one didn't notice because I couldn't be bothered to read it all because it was soooooooooooooo long-winded -& I actually _like _ grammar.........
> 
> 
> which sort of proves my point -if _I _couldn't be bothered, then a student of Spanish with no interest in grammar for sure wouldn't read it, or learn anything from it


The trouble is the average Brit under the age of 40 - 50 has very little idea of what the different parts of speech are which matters less in English but does in Spanish.

But *You *couldn't be bothered because you know your stuff so you felt it was beneath you read what might be meaningful to somebody who doesn't. A student of Spanish who wishes to speak correctly (not just ask for a beer in the bar) with educated Spanish people (I don't mean that in a disparaging way but it is a fact that many, especially older, country people speak limited Spanish and here, in fact, the most used verb is apañar which, to them, has multiple meanings rather like "fix/fixings") has to take an interest in grammar.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> Well spotted!!


Indeed.

However, it's grammar not grammer!



> Correctas is also an adjective and in this case as it refers to las caras should also agree in gender!!
> Knowledge of grammer certainly makes teaching English to Spaniards much easier than teaching Spanish to Brits. I have had students of many ages but the only ones who had had a good grounding in English grammer during their education were people of over 60. I think here children are taught grammer very well, although I don't understand why they change the names of things!! However, gallego is even worse, they not only change the names but the rules, too!


And as we are totally off topic...
The grammar my daughter was forced to endure in her Spanish classs has not benefited (or benefitted?) her nor her peers in any way that I am able to detect. On the contrary, it took valuable time away fom the works of literature that they were told to "take home and read", jewels of Spanish literature like Don Quijote and Lazarillo de Tormes. You can imagine what joy these 16 to 17 year olds were able to draw from these works of literature on their own at home.


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Indeed.
> 
> However, it's grammar not grammer!
> 
> ...


It is indeed . Mind you having had to suffer El Quijote and El Lazarillo de Tormes myself, anything that takes time away from these has to be a bonus! But for me, knowledge of Spanish grammar helped me when I had to study English (to qualify to teach as I only went to school in the UK until I was 7 and I studied French at school as a second language), French and Gallego. By the time my children had finished the first term in 3rd ESO they had finished with grammar and then went onto literature. Long enough!! Although the books they have to read each term are more in tune with teenagers than the classics.


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## Clemmie00 (Jun 10, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> & that is why so many of my students have given up with other teachers.............
> 
> you make it sound so complicated


Complicated? It isn't complicated at all. I showed it to my boyfriend who is just starting Spanish classes and he found it helpful. I think the problem is that some people want to become fluent in a language without putting in the effort to learn about English grammar and the grammar of their target language.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Having been at school immediately after the war when all our English teachers (recalled from retirement to fill the places of younger ones who had been called up) were "Eng Lit" specialists (no grammar, or very little) I got thoroughly fed up with that subject. If I wanted to waste time reading Shakespeare or learning obscure poetry off by heart then, as far as I was concerned, that was something to do at leisure but to take away valuable time from learning my own language, its constructions and proper usage was terrible. I was therefore regularly in the position of 31 out of 32. Until, that is, my final year when we got an English Grammar master and within one term I had shot up to 2nd in the class. Unfortunately, because of the poor language grounding, I failed to recognise that I had a certain aptitude for that discipline and thus didn't pursue it.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Clemmie00 said:


> Complicated? It isn't complicated at all. I showed it to my boyfriend who is just starting Spanish classes and he found it helpful. I think the problem is that some people want to become fluent in a language without putting in the effort to learn about English grammar and the grammar of their target language.


I found the same initially because I, like so many of us, started off by translating what I wanted to say/write which is when you need to know really what it is you are saying in English to be able to translate it into Spanish.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

anles said:


> It is indeed . Mind you having had to suffer El Quijote and El Lazarillo de Tormes myself, anything that takes time away from these has to be a bonus! But for me, knowledge of Spanish grammar helped me when I had to study English (to qualify to teach as I only went to school in the UK until I was 7 and I studied French at school as a second language), French and Gallego. By the time my children had finished the first term in 3rd ESO they had finished with grammar and then went onto literature. Long enough!! Although the books they have to read each term are more in tune with teenagers than the classics.


Well, that sounds more like it, a more balanced education. And I totally agree about Lazarillo and Don Pijote as my friend's daughter called him. With the wealth of Spanish/ South American writers that are out there...!!
My daughter is a reader and I can honestly say *despite *the education she received. The choice of books was appalling and then the treatment of those books in the classroom was a long, six year course on how to kill literature and any interest in it.
I agree that grammar has its place, but the kind of exercises that my daughter and her classmates had to do are the kind of thing you would expect a philologist to be doing for a masters, and I'm not joking!!
I think it's sad that they wasted so much time doing that when they could have been actively enjoying their culture.


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## eusjenie (25 d ago)

We have te same problem here in Alpujarras. We are Dutch but there are many Irish an Britain expats, Swedish and Germans. There is def a bubble here. My son is in public school we wanted him to integrate but because his friends speaks English and he speaking almost fluently English and Dutch he is not interested in learning Spanish. The weird thing is when he was four we lived in Cadiz in a Spanish pueblo with no expats expats except us. He attended school and spoke more Spanish than now. We had to go back to Amsterdam for 4 years and he forgot. It's a problem and the school makes a problem out of it.. after school he has 2 days a week Spanish Class the school arrange it. Still he doesn't seems interested at all to learn the language and pays no attention.


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