# Visa requirements short stay



## RachelGiada

Hi all,

I have been planning on moving to Italy for quite some time and now that i am "retired" I am going the list of things to find out. 

In the next couple months I plan to travel to Italy to look for a house. My question is in regards to Visa's. My tripwill certainly go over 30 days and certainly less then 90 days. So with that said I will assume I need a Tourist VISA For Schengen Countries, even though i have no intention to go beyond Italy on this trip. I do plan to pickup a International Drivers permit which i assume is a necessity in Italy for a car rental. I also have proof of Health Ins. I swear I thought I read about showing proof of sustainability money wise? 

Ok any input would be so much appreciated. thanks

Rachel Giada


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## Bevdeforges

If you're only going for less than 90 days, you only need a Schengen visa - which is the stamp they put in your passport when you get off the plane. (You don't have to apply - it's the standard "tourist" visa stamp.)

You actually don't need an International Driving License either. It's really nothing more than a standardized translation of your US license. A plain old US driving license is perfectly adequate to rent a car. (Though, if you are stopped for some reason, the international license can help the officer to determine exactly what type of license you have.)

For a visitor visa, you don't actually need proof of either health insurance or financial resources (beyond what you'd normally need for a holiday visit). 

You will need all that other stuff, however, when you go for a long-stay visa (i.e. over 90 days).
Cheers,
Bev


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## accbgb

To build a bit upon Bev's comments -


US citizens are granted an automatic 90 day (note, 90 days - not three months) tourist visa. There is nothing to apply for, no forms to sign, nothing. Just arrive in Italy and make certain you leave within 90 days. Also, if you don't enter Italy directly (that is, if you enter the EU/Schengen Zone via a flight which changes in France, for example), then you either need to ensure that your passport is stamped upon arrival in Italy (it will not be done automatically in this case) or you need to report to the local Questura (police station) and file a Dichiarazione di Presenza (Declaration of Presence) within 8 days of arrival.

Said tourist visa permits you to remain in Italy for no more than 90 days out of any 180 day period. So, you can't stay for 90 days, return to the US for a month and then return to Italy; you'll have to remain in the US (or anywhere outside the Schengen Zone [Google is your friend]) for at least 90 days before returning.

If your ultimate goal is to actually live in Italy for periods longer than 90 days, you will eventually require an Elective Residency visa. There are significant income requirements (commonly thought to be around €30,000 per year per person but not published anywhere that I am aware of) and some other limits as well. Worth looking into before you make an investment.


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## RachelGiada

Thank you Bev and ACC for this information, I am glad i asked.

Yes I do plan to move there permanently. I find your comments about the financial requirement a bit odd in that I am working with e Real estate agent who is born raised in Italy, I questioned her about a rumor I heard about have €4,000 month? She stated that that is absolutely not the case, Italian law does require you to have a Italian bank acct and have at least €5,100 value checking / savings a one time check to show proof. 

I want to play it safe and obtain a IDP it is only $15/ US funds through AAA.

I have googled even that at times reveals conflicting info depending on what you are looking. Thus my reasoning to get in touch with a Italian real estate agent who lives there. 

Again thanks much


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## accbgb

RachelGiada said:


> Thank you Bev and ACC for this information, I am glad i asked.
> 
> Yes I do plan to move there permanently. I find your comments about the financial requirement a bit odd in that I am working with e Real estate agent who is born raised in Italy, I questioned her about a rumor I heard about have €4,000 month? She stated that that is absolutely not the case, Italian law does require you to have a Italian bank acct and have at least €5,100 value checking / savings a one time check to show proof.
> 
> I want to play it safe and obtain a IDP it is only $15/ US funds through AAA.
> 
> I have googled even that at times reveals conflicting info depending on what you are looking. Thus my reasoning to get in touch with a Italian real estate agent who lives there.
> 
> Again thanks much


I must warn you to be as careful and mildly suspicious of Italian realtors as you would be of US realtors. Not all are fully informed of the intricacies of international moves.

You will eventually need that ER visa and it can only be obtained from the Italian consulate which serves your place of legal residence (see Consulates in the USA for a listing). I strongly suggest you contact your local consulate in advance to determine what their requirements are - believe it or not, each consulate can, and does, use their own rules and procedures to determine visa eligibility. You will need a mix of sustainable income and/or savings and/or investments capable of generating income which is sufficient to meet _your consulate's_ requirements. An ER visa does not permit you to work while residing in Italy.


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## accbgb

Oh, by the way - I always like to inquire in these cases: do you have any Italian blood? Does/did your husband have any Italian blood?

If so, Italian citizenship jure/jus/ius sanguinis (by blood right) may be a possibility, in which case all concerns about visas evaporate.


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## RachelGiada

ACC thank you! My Grandfather was from Abruzzo from my mothers side, and my grandfather for my fathers side from southern Italy. I am not married and i am Italian. 

I have been in touch with the Consulate in Philadelphia and have started filling out the Visa for long term. Can i rent an apartment and can i apply for residency and Italian citizenship? 

What is a ER Visa?

Thanks !


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## accbgb

RachelGiada said:


> ACC thank you! My Grandfather was from Abruzzo from my mothers side, and my grandfather for my fathers side from southern Italy. I am not married and i am Italian.
> 
> I have been in touch with the Consulate in Philadelphia and have started filling out the Visa for long term. Can i rent an apartment and can i apply for residency and Italian citizenship?
> 
> What is a ER Visa?
> 
> Thanks !


With Italian citizenship, you have exactly the same rights as any other Italian citizen. The right to live, work, healthcare, etc., etc. It is definitely worth looking into.

The basics are as follows:

a. Your grandfather must have still retained his Italian citizenship on the day your mother was born.

b. Your mother must never have legally renounced her Italian citizenship (a highly unlikely event)

c. If you were born before January 1, 1948, you would most likely need to enlist the help of an Italian attorney who specializes in this situation. The Italian government's position is that prior to that date, Italian citizenship was passed only by the father, not the mother, however there have been a substantial number of challenges in the Italian courts and they seem to always win. If interested, Google "Luigi Paiano", he has won numerous such cases.

d. If you are granted citizenship your minor children will automatically be granted Italian citizenship as well. If you have children over the age of majority they will have to file a separate application (in most consulates, anyway), however the granting would be essentially automatic.

The process can take a while, however it does not necessarily need to be done prior to your arrival in Italy. If you can pull together the appropriate documentation, you could quite possibly go to Italy on the 90 day tourist visa waiver, submit your application, and if it appears to be in order, obtain a permission to stay based on your citizenship application.

Official info here: go the website of your local Italian consulate, click the "EN" (English) link at top right if necessary, then Passports & Services and finally Citizenship. 

Tons of help with your own details here: Italian Dual Citizenship Help - Italian citizenship message board and forum - Index page

[edit to add]

Of course, if you use your father's lineage, you don't need to worry about the 1948 business. As to which grandfather to use, the important factors are:

1. You will need to obtain your grandfather's Italian birth certificate as well as his marriage and death certificates (wherever those events may have occurred). You may find one side of your family more easily than the other. 

2. You will also require proof of his eventual naturalization date (preferably, because it is far easier) or, proof that he never naturalized (generally, a lot more work is required to prove the negative).

3. You will need your father's (or mother's - you get the idea...) birth, marriage, and, if applicable, death certificates.

4. Some consulates will also require birth and death certificates for the (in this case) your grandmother and your mother.


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## RachelGiada

My mom was born in 1926 my grandfather became a US citizen in 1949. I was born in 1951. ROFL.

Thank you for the above link I will look into that. The only paperwork I have is my grandfather and grandmother naturalization papers. From what i read before this conversation started was If my grandfather gave up his Italian Citizenship after the birth of his children than the his children are Italian citizens never denouncing Italian citizenship. I was born after 1948 and before 1965. Thus i am an Italian citizenship. Sound about right?

Oh I forgot I ahve my mom and dad's original Marriage Certificate.


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## BBCWatcher

Rachel, you appear to be legally entitled to recognition as an Italian citizen if what you've described about your family history is accurate.

I'm not sure where you got that 1965 idea. You were born after 1947, and that's fine -- no attorney required. If you were born _yesterday_ it'd still be fine. (And what a precocious newborn you would be, posting to the Internet all by yourself. )


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## accbgb

Rachel,

Are your parents still living?

Which Italian consulate serves the area of your current legal residence?

If you don't mind, where, exactly, was your grandfather born? It should be on his naturalization papers.

Where did your grandparents wed - Italy or the US? If in Italy, it was more than likely in your grandmother's place of birth (if different from your grandfather's).


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## RachelGiada

BBC, Thank you and yes the information i have posted in accurate. I will contact the state and get a copy of my mothers birth certificate, I have my mom and dad's wedding certificate too. 

Rachel


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## accbgb

RachelGiada said:


> BBC, Thank you and yes the information i have posted in accurate. I will contact the state and get a copy of my mothers birth certificate, I have my mom and dad's wedding certificate too.
> 
> Rachel


Rachel,

Don't jump on that just yet. There are things you need to know, first.


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## RachelGiada

Both of my parents are passed on. I checked my grand parents naturalization papers they do not state. On the papers it says former nationality Italian. 
The closest Italian Consulate in Philadelphia on 30 minutes away.

My grandfather always talked about Fresagrandinaria, Province of Chieti, Abruzzo. I am assuming that this is where he was born and I have no idea where they were married.


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## Bevdeforges

We've had a few folks through here who have successfully claimed a European nationality through ancestry. But in your case, you may want to consider going the regular visa route for retiring in Italy and then pursuing some of the missing information once you are settled in. 

Proving nationality through ancestry can take quite a long time and it may really help if you are living there, with a better understanding of how to work the government offices.
Cheers,
Bev


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## accbgb

Bevdeforges said:


> We've had a few folks through here who have successfully claimed a European nationality through ancestry. But in your case, you may want to consider going the regular visa route for retiring in Italy and then pursuing some of the missing information once you are settled in.
> 
> Proving nationality through ancestry can take quite a long time and it may really help if you are living there, with a better understanding of how to work the government offices.
> Cheers,
> Bev


Bev, I'm afraid I have to disagree a bit with the above.

Rachel appears to have a clear-cut, prima facie case, made all the easier by the fact that she already possesses her grandfather's naturalization papers.

She needs to collect a half-dozen or so documents in the correct format with apostilles and Italian translations. Since her schedule is short, I would suggest making the actual application in Italy, thereby avoiding the long (often a year or more) wait for an appointment at an Italian consulate in the US. If she does choose to apply in Italy, she will need to add the extra step of having her apostilled documents authenticated by her local consulate - a mostly trivial matter.

If the cost is not outrageous and were I in Rachel's shoes, I would consider hiring Luigi Paiano (or another attorney who specializes in citizenship cases) as a final check to ensure all documents meet the legal requirements and then to assist her with the actual application in Italy. Done right, and in a comune that is familiar with the process (something Sg. Paiano is very good at sorting out), the final process could be completed in a matter of days or weeks.


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## Bevdeforges

Actually, I think we're agreeing here. I was suggesting that she lodge her application when she gets to Italy. You're right - going through the consulate adds lots and lots of waiting time and another layer of verification of documents. 

Maybe we're misunderstanding her plans, but I had the impression she was going to do a preliminary short stay trip before making application for a long-stay visa. But in any case, going direct to the Italian government in situ rather than through the consulate is an excellent idea. (Though it still could take "a few" months to process.)
Cheers,
Bev


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## RachelGiada

ACC & Bev thank you again. Firstly my schedule is not short and if i mislead anyone then i a very sorry. I cannot go anywhere until I sell the house here before making any type of move to Italy. 

Right now I am doing my application for a resident Visa. I think this is the best as i do not want to go there for 90 days than have to leave not have completed what i set out to do. If I do not buy a house I can at least rent a long term lease apartment bring with me a Resident Visa and complete my Italian citizenship there where i have a better access to files. I will call the City hall in Fresagrandinaria tomorrow to inquire about my grandfather. 

If by tomorrow I feel overwhelmed I'll take a deep breath in. I will even consider contacting Luigi Paiano on costs of this.

Also I read most of this here: Italian Dual Citizenship Help - Italian citizenship message board and forum - View topic - Qualifications for Italian Dual Citizenship Through Ancestry

further down was this:
CATEGORY #5: Your mother was born in your native country, your maternal grandfather was an Italian citizen at the time of her birth, you were born after January 1st, 1948, and neither you nor your mother ever renounced your right to Italian citizenship. If citizenship is acquired by birth in your country and you meet all these conditions, you qualify for Italian citizenship jure sanguinis.

I need to read back to see if there is a list i need to have. I have headache ROFL


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## BBCWatcher

RachelGiada said:


> Right now I am doing my application for a resident Visa.


It can't hurt to tell the consulate that you're eligible for Italian citizenship recognition and to ask whether they'll take an application from you. If they still can't meet your time requirements, so be it, but you can ask.


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## RachelGiada

I agree however I need to do some serious looking and I will start tomorrow morning and that will be one of my approaches if I can collect the data myself. I will call Fresagrandinaria, Italy in the morning see what they can tell me about his birth record. Frankly I can understand their need for: this is a partial from the Philadelphia consulate. 
1) Your Maternal Grandfather's Birth Certificate (from Italy) 
2) Your Maternal Grandfather's Death Certificate(if applicable) or his address.
3) Your Maternal Grandfather's Marriage Certificate and Marriage License.

The birth cert Marriage cert/License will be the rub.

I do have a dumb question I wanted to edit one of my posts and fir the life of me i cannot find the edit post button? Am i going crazy?


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## RachelGiada

This is strange but i can now edit a post, I guess when i went in to my profile chicked off and then on the editing tool it is not here.


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## Bevdeforges

You're limited to a brief time period to edit your own posts - something like 15 minutes, I think it is. If there is something "critical" drop me a PM (click on my name in the upper left corner of this message and there is a drop down menu that should include "Send a PM to..." )
Cheers,
Bev


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## Italia-Mx

Rachel, I was recognized by the Philly consulate in 2001, afterwhich I immediately moved to Italy with my Italian passport in hand. Finding a place to rent, registering in my commune, obtaining health insurance, etc. was all totally painless because I was treated like any other citizen. 

In 2010, I returned to the US to help my companion obtain his own passport through his grand-father. Our goal was to return to Italy together as soon as possible. So after I had registered myself in the San Francisco AIRE and while we were obtaining his documents, I took my companion for a visit with the vice consul in Seattle.

The first question we asked was whether he would be allowed to come back to Italy with me using is American passport and then have my commune process his citizenship application. The answer was that if the application was not approved through the commune within 90 days, he would have to return to the US and start all over with a consulate. 

Next he inquired about the Elective Residency Visa which he did qualify for and in his case, it was not necessary for him to secure a 12 month lease ahead of time because he was with me and also because I have relatives in Italy who were willing to act as his "sponsor" while his citizenship application was pending. 

But while he was preparing the visa application, the consulate came through with a citizenship appointment for him within a very reasonable time frame (three months) so we thought it was worth the wait because I know from experience that it's much better and easier, especially if you're not familiar with the Italian language and bureaucracy, to let the consulates handle these type of requests, as well as it being a piece of cake to get settled in Italy when you already have the passport. 

We are also retired and did impress upon the consulate that we wanted to return to Italy and start spending our money there as soon as possible and as a result, after his initial appointment, he was recognized by the consulate in six weeks. And of course, we came back to Italy shortly after that.

Since you are also retired, if you decide to go for the Elective Residency visa and your citizenship application papers are in order, you might find that your consulate can also bump up a citizenship application appointment for you, especially if you have demonstrated that you meet the income requirements for the Elective Residency visa. It just makes sense that the consulates would like to try and accommodate Italian citizens who's intention it is to help out the Italian economy with retirement benefits from abroad rather than to be someone who is just looking for a job in the EU, although those requests are processed as well, in time.

My advice. Try to go to Italy with your Italian passport in hand instead of an Elective Residency visa.


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## BBCWatcher

Italia-Mx said:


> The answer was that if the application was not approved through the commune within 90 days, he would have to return to the US and start all over with a consulate.


That's at least a bit oversimplified. I'll try to elaborate.

If you're applying for citizenship recognition in Italy then you need to present a stack of official documents, suitably prepared (apostilles, consular checks, translations) and without too many/too severe discrepancies. (It could be a small stack or big stack depending on how far back you need to go to your most recently documented Italian ancestor.) If you can present a _reasonable_ stack that looks like it will and should be approved, and if you're approaching your Schengen stay limit, your commune can grant a _PdS per attesa cittadinanza_ -- an Italian (only) residence permit that doesn't allow you to work but does allow you to stay in Italy past 90 days while your application is pending....

....But it's fairly easy to screw up and not have the proper documents, properly prepared. In which case, "Ciao." You'll probably have to leave the Schengen Area within your 90 day stay limit. You can't show up with the bureaucratic equivalent of your child's crayon drawing and get that type of residence permit. (Wouldn't that be nice?)

One option (already mentioned upthread) to reduce the risk significantly is to hire a "facilitator." That might be an Italian attorney, for example, who knows what documents you need, how they ought to be prepared, etc. He/she can typically arrange suitable housing (a hotel or guest house doesn't work), and he/she might have a good relationship with a friendly commune. My nickname for this service -- certainly not an official name -- is a "Bologna Run," in reference to the fact that one of the attorneys that does this is based in Bologna, and Bologna's local government seems to do a pretty good job getting such applications processed. But it doesn't have to be that attorney, his office, or Bologna.


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## Italia-Mx

Rachel, you seem to be a second generation Italian-American (like me) who's grand-parents were born in Italy (mine are also from Abruzzo, which is where I also live). So you only have to trace documents back to your grand-father. This, in my opinion, is not worth the cost of hiring an attorney in Italy. Plus, visa's are not free. You have to pay for the Elective Residence Visa. While there is also now a fee for recognition of Italian citizenship via the consulate, in the end your costs will be less, provided you can wait for a consulate appointment. Also if you come to Italy as an Italian citizen with an Italian passport instead of as a foreigner on a Visa, you can avoid having to make a trip to the Questura (police station), which by the way, will be filled up unfortunately with immigrants coming from Africa and the Middle East. I can almost guarantee this will not be a pleasant experience and is one which nearly all Italians try to avoid. Once every ten years to renew my passport is enough for me and for most Italian citizens now that things have definitely changed in Italy.


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## accbgb

Rachel,

It's been a while since I pursued recognition of my own Italian citizensip (2008!) but I don't think much has changed.

Regarding your grandfather's birth and marriage certificates, a reasonable start would be in Fresagrandinaria. You can write to them as follows:



> 01 marzo 2016 [month names in italian are written lower case]
> 
> [your name]
> [your address]
> STATI UNITI D'AMERICA - USA
> 
> 
> Ufficio dello Stato Civile
> Comune di Fresagrandinaria
> Piazzale Municipio 1
> 66050 FRESAGRANDINARIA CH
> ITALY
> 
> Egregi Signori,
> 
> Mi chiamo [your name here], ed abito negli Stati Uniti all'indirizzo sopradetto.
> 
> Vi scrivo affinché mi aiutiate a reperire:
> 
> * Copia integrale dell'atto di Nascita
> * Copia integrale dell'atto di Matrimonio
> 
> per il mio bisnonni:
> 
> * [your grandfather's full name, surname first] nato nel Comune di Fresagrandinaria, in data [if you know his exact birthdate, write is here like "01 settembre 1871" otherwise write "circa 1870 - 1872" or some such], paternità [his father's given name if you know it else 'incerto'], maternità [mother's full or partial maiden name if you know it "SMITH JANE" else 'incerto']
> 
> * [your grandmother's maiden name, surname first] nato nel Comune incerto, in data [as above], paternità [her father's given name if you know it else 'incerto'], maternità [mother's full or partial maiden name if you know it "SMITH JANE" else 'incerto']
> 
> * Celebrato lo matrimonio nel Comune di Fresagrandinaria, in data circa 1900-1905 [give a wide range of dates, otherwise they may stop looking too soon]
> 
> 
> Vi prego di farmi sapere quanto dovuto per il servizio e per i costi di spedizione.
> 
> Distinti saluti,
> 
> [your signature]


Birth/marriage/death photocopies of original registry pages are called: Copia integrale dell'atto di Nascita/Matrimonio/Morte. These are more difficult to read but contain lots of additional useful information compared to...

Birth/marriage/death computer-generated (sometimes hand-written) extracts are: Estratto Per Riassunto Per Atto Di Nascita/Matrimonio/Morte

Most comuni do not charge for these documents. Do send a large, self-addressed (but not stamped) envelope if possible; be sure to put "STATI UNITI D'AMERICA - USA" in the final line of your address. It is also a good idea to include a copy of your ID (driver's license, for example) as some comuni will not process requests without it.

FYI: Fresagrandinaria's website is at Comune di FRESAGRANDINARIA (CH)

If your grandparents did not actually marry in Fresagrandinaria, they should be able to tell you where that event occurred. If they say they have no record of your grandfather's birth, well, that is another issue for another day. We should be able to figure it out, just more work.

If you have your grandfather's original naturalization certificate, you should be able to use that. If not, you will need to obtain a certified copy of his record. If he naturalized in a federal court (or, some but not all state courts), you can quickly and reasonably inexpensively order one from the National Archives. Go to https://eservices.archives.gov/orderonline/start.swe?SWECmd=Start&SWEHo=eservices.archives.gov and create a user account, then click "Order Reproductions" then "Immigration & Naturalization Records" then "Naturalization Records. For Delivery Format, select "Certified Paper Copy". If for some reason the Archives are unable to locate the record (you will not be charged), you will have to move on to the USCIS site instead where the cost is a bit higher, it takes longer, and the quality of the documents returned is usually quite poor. Go to https://genealogy.uscis.dhs.gov/. Since you already have naturalization papers, you should be able to skip the index search and go directly to a "Record Request" - you will need to provide the naturalization number (usually starts with a "C" and is 7 or 8 digits if I recall correctly).

Your other required certificates are your grandfather's death certificate, your mother's birth, marriage, and death certificates, your own birth certificate and - technically - your marriage and divorce certificates, as applicable. Each of these must be certified and in "long form". Explanation: New York State, for example, issues short form birth certificates which basically just have the child's name, date, and place of birth and not much else - not acceptable! They also issue a long form certificate which is normally a photocopy of the original birth record, complete with parent's names and ages, the place of birth (hospital name, etc) the attending physician's name and signature, etc.

All of these documents will need to have apostilles: you package them up and mail (certified would be a good idea!) or hand carry them to the Off ice of the Secretary of State for the state which issued the certificates. If yours are all from Pennsylvania, info is here: How Do I Obtain an Apostille or Certification

If you are going to make your formal application in Italy, all of these apostilled documents will need to be authenticated by your consulate. Contact them for info.

Also, many of these will need Italian translations. I would suggest you hold off on those until you have everything in hand and decide whether you will enlist the aide of an attorney.


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## accbgb

Let me just add this:

The reason for enlisting the aide of an attorney such as the one I mentioned (and BBCWATCHER alluded to) is that you get all the help might you need in one package:

Ensuring that your documents meet the requirements of the comune where you will file your application. The bulk of this can be done via email while you are still in the US.

He/she speaks Italian fluently and can hash out any problems with the comune more easily than you can alone.

He/she will arrange for only the necessary translations.


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## RachelGiada

Thank you everyone I realize that this road i am traveling on will take some time. BBC your right in saying a stack of papers, I need no less then 14 documents some to me are silly and i consider picking the fly poop out of the pepper. However be that as it may i will get the information. 

I have already spoken to the Pa Dept of State regarding their official Legalization / Apostille. Of all the documents the Consulate lists. There is only one is in Italy my grandfather's birth certificate. He left Italy at the young age of 22 which would make my grandmothers 11 so they were not married in Italy . I do have his exact birth date and the town is Fresagrandinaria.

I did get a letter off to Comune Di Fresa, let me see what they gets me. If that falls through then I will enlist the help of a Italian Citizenship Attorney, Luigi Paiano. I am leaning toward Luigi simply because I have enough on my plate to do tracking down marriage, death certs for my grandfather obtain "Official certs for my mom and dad's marriage death certs, and get all of this translated into Italian "Professionally done" 

As a courtesy I called him earlier today, he requested I send him an email detailing what I want to accomplish and needs and he advised he would respond back with what he needs from me and his services accordingly.

I have also contacted translation services company that handles these types of documents and prepare them for Apostille. 

It is a wonder they don't want my first born  joking people.

The above is in response to all of your input from today and last night so thank you's go out to Bev, Italia, BCC and Acc you all are great people.


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## accbgb

Best of luck, Rachel. I do hope you will keep us informed of your progress.


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## RachelGiada

Yes I will and you can expect PM's too !


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## Bevdeforges

From what you're saying, I'm not sure if you are clear on the notion of apostille. If you get a chance, you might want to take a look at the two documents on apostille that the US Consulate in France has available: A to Z Resources and Listing of Services | Paris, France - Embassy of the United States and look for the Apostille documents.

If you're having to have a document translated, then it won't be apostilled by the Pa officials. Apostille is basically an authentication of a legal document by the civil authorities in the place where the document was originally issued. Italian documents must be apostilled in Italy, and birth, marriage and death certificates from the US have to be apostilled by the state where the original was issued.

If I've misunderstood, forgive me, but I know this paperwork jungle is confusing at first and I just wanted to save you trying to get document apostilled that don't need to be done.
Cheers,
Bev


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## RachelGiada

Bev perhaps i am the one in error. I have reread the requirements from th Italian Consule in Philadelphia.

Here is what i am reading:
Excerpt from http://www.consfiladelfia.esteri.it...A7F6-275C03A3F77E/0/Cit_juresanguinisapo2.pdf

*U.S. Birth/Marriage/Death records must be accompanied by the" APOSTILLE " of the Secretary of State of the State in which the document was issued, (except for the Certificate of Naturalization and/or similar documentation). 

The APOSTILLE is a legalization provided by the Office of the Secretary of State of the State where the document/certificate is issued (Please note: it is not a stamp on the certificate it is a separate document issued by the Secretary of State that accompanies the birth/marriage/death certificate. For marriage certificates, you must obtain a “certified copy” of both the marriage license and the marriage certificate.

Other Regulations
Vital Records in languages other than Italian, birth, marriage, death certificates must be professionally translated into Italian. Documents that do not need to be translated are the U.S. Certificate of Naturalization and any statement regarding information on the naturalization status of the ancestor. 
*

Now I have another concern do I get the Apostille on the certified state vital records document only yes and not on both that being the translated copy....


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## BBCWatcher

The translation is separate and can be done (from a scanned copy) while you're getting a document apostilled. You don't translate the apostille, as a rule. The consulate with jurisdiction over the document's place of issuance -- so, the Italian consulate in Philadelphia for documents issued in Pennsylvania, for example -- has to look over the document, apostille, and translation and stamp it if you're going to be presenting the document in another country (for example, in Italy).

The apostille and translation exceptions for U.S. naturalization documents do NOT apply when you're presenting those documents in a citizenship recognition case outside the United States (for example, in Italy). Only consulates in the U.S. waive those particular requirements.

This is slightly complicated, as you can tell, so it's one of the few exceptions when I think there's some merit in hiring a pro (a real pro) if you're going to apply in Italy.


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## RachelGiada

I figured that the Apostille did not require translation but I wanted to ask just in case. 

Bear with me its been a bit overwhelming and my brain is at max, so in a nut shell an Apostille is only needed if i am going through a Consulate in the USA, but if i send my documents to a Italian attorney in Italy then all that would be required are certified copies of the documents needed. Do I have that about right?


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## BBCWatcher

No. If a country or state provides an apostille (the U.S. and all U.S. states do) you need it, unless that country is Italy (i.e. you have an official document from Italy). Italian consulates in the U.S. (only) waive the apostille requirement only for U.S. naturalization documents, but Italian communes don't. Apostille everything that can be apostilled (except Italian documents).

Before you send a document in to get an apostille you can take a copy or scan of that document and send the copy or scan to a professional translator.

Never modify, alter, or otherwise change any official record. Not even a staple. Let the consulate attach translations if they want to.

One of the most costly problems, if you apply in Italy, is landing in Italy and discovering that either you found a commune that is slow and doesn't understand the process or that the documents you assembled and prepared have some problem that you have to try to cure from Italy. Yes, it may cost a bit more to hire a pro to help, but if you're going to apply in Italy in my view it ends up being the lowest cost option.


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