# south africa is good. dont post if u don't agree



## aprilfifth (May 5, 2010)

just thought all the positives could be listed on one thread instead of being purely reactions to the bad ones.

i love it here for all the faults.

excluding the world cup possibilities i feel far away from suicide bombings, car bombings and terroist attacks on buildings, buses and nightclubs.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Troll


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## mman (Nov 15, 2009)

Halo said:


> Troll


Right now, you're the troll!


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

mman said:


> Right now, you're the troll!


touché


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## rogerlee (May 13, 2010)

Someday, I will visit South Africa. Its my dream to live there or maybe try to live there maybe for a year. I like the weather there, not to cold and not too hot.


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## mman (Nov 15, 2009)

rogerlee said:


> Someday, I will visit South Africa. Its my dream to live there or maybe try to live there maybe for a year. I like the weather there, not to cold and not too hot.


Very hot if you live in Durban


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

well sofar there are no positives.
other than than weather.


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## jockm (Jun 23, 2009)

It sounds like a verryyyyyy scarrrrryyyyy place to me


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## RenVilo (Mar 18, 2010)

Look SA is the most beautiful place in the WORLD. But due to certain aspect of the history of SA the land is busy going backwords and really really fast.

Visit for a 2 week holiday and stay in certain areas... Theft, murders, rape and and and is really bad. That's why I'll do anything to leave.

The other day a 1 year old child was abused. WTF.. She couldn't do any harm but they couldn't leave her alone. 

I'll trade places with ANYONE outside SA. It's not a safe country and it will never be.


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## mman (Nov 15, 2009)

Daxk said:


> well sofar there are no positives.
> other than than weather.


You know that is not the only one though.


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

I agree, South Africa is GOOD, as long as you are living in denial. 

If you are a foreigner from another African state, then this place is not only good, it is GREAT, it is the land of opportunities, especially for those who are educated and have moved from other African countries. I know a few highly educated persons from Africa. Humble, hard working and professional. Salt of the earth.

Or, you will be an expat who moved here to stretch your retirement fund. See, here you can live like a king on those pounds, in security villages with armed response, and you can buy at Woolies and Stuttafords. So you have no option as to defend the country's crime dilemma, cause you might me confronted with the choices you made. And if you love it here, I am glad for you. You have not been part of the psychological warfare that has been going on here for the last 50 years, you do not have 5 family members here who were either hijacked, raped or murdered, not yet.

Or, you have so much vested interest here, that you just cannot move, so you live in denial, calling it " being positive" "having faith" and what not. I have faith too, cannot live without it, but I also have God given discernment and common sense that has to prevail, called VISION. If you have vision, you will be able to see what is coming a few years from now. I do not plan to leave for my sake, but for my kids sake. If they hate it there, at least they had the necessary exposure. If I do not assist them to broaden their vision so they can make an informed decision when they are older, they may be STUCK here as are so many South Africans, even if their position of being stuck is more in their mind than reality.

Or, you are involved in real estate or tourism or you have a family farm. I cannot imagine what a person living on a family farm or running a family business must go through having to give it up in order to create a new and safe life for HIS decendants. It is so sad.


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## RenVilo (Mar 18, 2010)

I agree with you 100% man... Just one think I'll like to know. You say 

"even if their position of being stuck is more in their mind than reality."

It's really hard to get out of SA if you don't have cash. I did my Diploma JUST to get more points so I can maybe get out of SA... Now I can (only to Aus/NZ. Not even UK coz you have to have a Degree) but it's A LOT of cash. I'll relocate myself.. I just need to sponsored visa


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## Cnf (Mar 17, 2010)

Here are five positives that came first to mind:
* The Cape is one of the most beautiful places in the world.
* The bushveld is stunning and easily accessible.
* Skilled and motivated people advance their careers quicker here, as with most growth markets, versus the mature markets.
* Fantastic weather.
* Property is quite cheap.

And in case you are wondering: My reasons for moving to Australia and not related to hating South Africa


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## DannyBoy (Apr 29, 2009)

*Talking thru your nose*



Cnf said:


> Here are five positives that came first to mind:
> * The Cape is one of the most beautiful places in the world.
> * The bushveld is stunning and easily accessible.
> * Skilled and motivated people advance their careers quicker here, as with most growth markets, versus the mature markets.
> ...


WHAT planet are you on where "Skilled and motivated people advance their careers quicker here, as with most growth markets, versus the mature markets.".

I know of 16 HIGHLY SKILLED I.T professionals (myself included) who could NOT get work in "Sunny South Africa" because they were a lighter shade of pale.
All these young white kids going to London to do menial lousy bartender and baby-sitter jobs 'cos they can't get work due to their RACE in your Utopian dreamland.

And on top of it you have the gall to display your Australian application, which has nothing to do with the posting, but just shows your blatant arrogance towards the folks who can't leave.


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## Cnf (Mar 17, 2010)

DannyBoy said:


> WHAT planet are you on where "Skilled and motivated people advance their careers quicker here, as with most growth markets, versus the mature markets.".
> 
> I know of 16 HIGHLY SKILLED I.T professionals (myself included) who could NOT get work in "Sunny South Africa" because they were a lighter shade of pale.
> All these young white kids going to London to do menial lousy bartender and baby-sitter jobs 'cos they can't get work due to their RACE in your Utopian dreamland.
> ...


Haha, I was waiting for the flames. 

I have spent most my life in South Africa and have taken two international work assignments (UK and USA) prior to this. Australia will be my third 3 year assignment - and the intention is to return thereafter.

So .... what does that say about me? I am skilled enough to work anywhere in the world and yet I continue to return.

Oh - and by the way - stop blaming your inability to get work on your skin colour. It is true that it is easier for an equally skilled non-white to get work but far from impossible for whites. I work in the IT industry and my current company meets all its employment equity quotas and we hire whites and non-whites based on their skills and experience.


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

Cnf said:


> Here are five positives that came first to mind:
> * The Cape is one of the most beautiful places in the world.
> * The bushveld is stunning and easily accessible.
> * Skilled and motivated people advance their careers quicker here, as with most growth markets, versus the mature markets. in and at what time of the year.
> ...


 * The Cape is one of the most beautiful places in the world. Agreed
* The bushveld is stunning and easily accessible. Agreed
* Skilled and motivated people advance their careers quicker here, as with most growth markets, versus the mature markets. Not always true. Depends on age and race. BEE plays a major role here. If you were born and raised here and have children between the age of 18-30, you will know what I mean. If not, don't even try to debate the point, it will be perceived as an insult to most white South Africans who have personal experience of the situation.
* Fantastic weather. Agreed. Depending on what province you are in and at what time of the year.
* Property is quite cheap. Not always true. 85% of the coastal properties in our beautiful Cape Town, (Camp Bay, Clifton, etc) are owned by foreigners. The term "cheap" has a relative meaning in this context. Cheap if you are bringing your foreign currency, yes. And you can pay for ADT, electric fencing, personal guards, private medical aid etc. 

And in case you are wondering: My reasons for moving to Australia and not related to hating South Africa Well said. I am sure you are going to make it great in Australia.


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## Cnf (Mar 17, 2010)

Oh - and another positive ... you don't have to be in the same country as DannyBoy


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

The one negative thing I've found out about south Africa from reading this forum is that those who go there or who are from there always seem to get overheated and argue!!!

Jo xxx


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Jo Jo, its a country that inspires passion.
if you have lived there, have its water in your blood and dust in your lungs, then you cannot be indifferent to it.
secondly, by its nature,it tends to breed people who make decisions fast and a very high level of leadership skills especially amongst the white kids and race.
(because for many of them, people management starts when they are young as most families tended to have employees)

Lastly, the education system encourages discussion and decision making, so there are very few sheep and everyone has an opinion.
and is not shy expressing it.

If you really want to see a war, slag off someones rugby team or run down a national cricket team.


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## all ways wired (Nov 12, 2009)

Daxk said:


> well sofar there are no positives.
> other than than weather.


Another positive for ya......South Africa is huge in the Iron and Steel industry ......some iron others steal


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## Deuville (May 9, 2010)

jojo said:


> The one negative thing I've found out about south Africa from reading this forum is that those who go there or who are from there always seem to get overheated and argue!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


That's exactly what i've noticed! :confused2:


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## Cnf (Mar 17, 2010)

Everyone ends up justifying their decisions and in this case it's justifying a decision to leave or a decision to stay. Unfortunately in the case of South Africa it is seldom justified in an amiable manner.


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## zambezi.king (Oct 8, 2009)

I think it could be that fact that due to being isolated for so long or the fact that we have always lived with life and death all around us all day or whatever reason we are pretty straightforward... a spade is a spade and if you want to be politacally correct and / or obtuse then you are going to be set straight. There is generally very little grey area when it comes to principles / facts / opinion / views etc. 

For me personally, facts are facts and my principles are my principles, they will not change just to be fashionable or politically correct and I think it is the same for a vast amount of South Africans / Africans. We are often seen as arguementative because we will not yield or bend with the wind. In order for us to change you need to produce FACTS that will convince us our current viewpiont / knowledge is wrong or skewed in some way.

I personally think it used to be called integrity and steadfastness others might call it rigidity, being obstructive, narrow minded, bigotory, aloof etc... then again it could just be me.


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## dirussell (May 20, 2010)

I'm a Canadian living in Cape Town and I LOVE IT.

Here is my blog about my travels....

h t t p : / / d i r u s s e l l . c o m


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

dirussell, Great Blog you have. I'm glad to see you are enjoying Cape Town so much. A qoute on your blog sums up the South African issue: “Truth is it doesn’t matter where you live in the world, if you live in fear then you are trapped in a horrible place.” ~Fred Hatman

Many South Africans, including myself are living in fear, and very ligitimately so.


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## dirussell (May 20, 2010)

vegasboy said:


> dirussell, Great Blog you have. I'm glad to see you are enjoying Cape Town so much. A qoute on your blog sums up the South African issue: “Truth is it doesn’t matter where you live in the world, if you live in fear then you are trapped in a horrible place.” ~Fred Hatman
> 
> Many South Africans, including myself are living in fear, and very ligitimately so.


thanks. i'm glad you get the point of what i say...places can be dangerous and people must exercise caution, but carrying the energy of fear does nothing but harm you further. it's like worrying for 20 years that you might get murdered. well, you might get murdered one day, but why live in a mental prison for those 20 years before it even happens? it might never happen - then what? you wasted 20 years worrying, and you probably have stress-related illnesses that will kill you early anyhow.

mental freedom is the key to life, no matter where you live.

hope you keep coming back!

di


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

dirussell said:


> thanks. i'm glad you get the point of what i say...places can be dangerous and people must exercise caution, but carrying the energy of fear does nothing but harm you further. it's like worrying for 20 years that you might get murdered. well, you might get murdered one day, but why live in a mental prison for those 20 years before it even happens? it might never happen - then what? you wasted 20 years worrying, and you probably have stress-related illnesses that will kill you early anyhow.
> 
> mental freedom is the key to life, no matter where you live.
> 
> ...


dirussel, you seem to be a great person, but with all due respect, it is these type of comments that provoke anger. You don't seem to understand the cultural significance of the deep ingrained fear, hurt and anger that fuels conflict, which people have endured during many years, on both sides.

To make a comment of "carrying energy of fear..." etc etc is insensitive, perhaps more naive, but dangerous. Have one of your siblings, parents, family or friends been raped, or forced to have intercourse with each other, or hijacked or murdered? If not, abstain from making well-meant, but off the mark statements like above. Even if you manage to overcome your fear, you still have to be extremely vigilant, and THAT is abnormal. Look after yourself and enjoy Cape Town  By the way, I'm still in South Africa, but a man with a plan...


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

vegasboy said:


> dirussel, you seem to be a great person, but with all due respect, it is these type of comments that provoke anger. You don't seem to understand the cultural significance of the deep ingrained fear, hurt and anger that fuels conflict, which people have endured during many years, on both sides.
> 
> To make a comment of "carrying energy of fear..." etc etc is insensitive, perhaps more naive, but dangerous. Have one of your siblings, parents, family or friends been raped, or forced to have intercourse with each other, or hijacked or murdered? If not, abstain from making well-meant, but off the mark statements like above. Even if you manage to overcome your fear, you still have to be extremely vigilant, and THAT is abnormal. Look after yourself and enjoy Cape Town  By the way, I'm still in South Africa, but a man with a plan...


 dirussell, Just to prove my point, read this post recently submitted on another thread here and you will understand what I mean: 

"...Dear Imalin

I do business in Santon and have friends that live there, so I can give you some advice, I travel these areas weekly. 
Sandton is a very nice area but extremely expensive, most probably the most expensive area in the whole of Johannesburg/Pretoria. It is a very high class rich area, similar in USA as let’s say Manhattan, you will get in Centurion and Pretoria the same for30% less easy, Do not underestimate Pretoria, there is private estates that is 10 times much nicer to live than Sandton. Reason is that Pretoria gives you everything a city does but with a much more relaxed atmosphere, schools are tops, shops and standard of living. If I know what you are looking at spending on accommodation I can give more advice.
If you are going to work in Pretoria I would live in Pretoria, the travelling between the two cities in business hours is mad, it will take you anything from1.5*2.5 hours one way. Traffic in Pretoria is not nearly as bad, where in Pretoria will you be working, Pretoria is a big city, but easy to get about.
Imalin please be worried about safety, rule number one, I have been in the states a couple of times and one cannot compare the crime to South Africa, The way crime is applied in South Africa is quite different. You have crime in the posh and normal suburb that you don’t find in your normal suburbs, in USA. I am not a doom profit, but live realistic.
I live in a normal to upper suburb which is quite popular and rated a nice area to live, not security village. I have 6-8 feet metal-fence and wall, my security gate of 6 meter was broken from its electric motor with a metal bar and pull open with a LDV, my from door was kicked out of its frame out of the wall. Bricks and all. In the last 5 years I have been armed robbed twice, three motor cars stolen, burglaries a couple of times, neighbour robed one , cars 1, burglary 5 times, my other neighbour 3 houses down has been armed rob 3 times and burgled 12 times, and this area is very nice to live in.
In my family and friends group I will give a quick stat to crime.
My mother was shot dead in her house 8/05/2000 at 2 pm on a Monday, since 1994, I was armed robbed 3 times, burglary 11 times, cars stolen 5, business broken in 3 times. mother in-law cars stolen 2, robbed twice, brother armed hijacked & car stolen 1, sister in-law, armed hijacked & car stolen 2, her son had to take his clothes of in front of her and say good bye, he was put in execution style, gun was pulled and by grace of GOD did not go off, they have been robbed 5 times, my sister attempted high jacking and shot at 1, burglary 3 times. My friends own 4 Spar, food outlet, armed robbed with AK47 9 times, 3 workers and a friend shot and killed to date, 5 times burgled and 2 armed robberies, I have lost 3 friend that has been murdered, my best friend a farmer his wife, and mother was gang raped by 3 of their workers and 4 of their mates, his mother was stabbed 21 times and left to die, his wife was taken to a shabin (drinking area), for more to have their fun, and left her the next morning naked in a dirt road, they were jailed for only 2.5 year and got pardoned by Mbeki because the jails was full, I can carry on....
So yes please be aware where you live and choose good. My advice is first to come and have a look at where you work and what area it is in, you will love Pretoria it is a very friendly city. 

All that said this is still a wonderful country, but my hopes and moral is so low, as so many South Africans, I am doing my best to move to the USA, but hell it is not easy with you immigration.
You are welcome to phone me any time in SA I can show you around I have a couple of foreign friends from overseas that work in SA it would be my pleasure
I can send you my private email address to correspond"


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## dirussell (May 20, 2010)

vegasboy said:


> dirussel, you seem to be a great person, but with all due respect, it is these type of comments that provoke anger. You don't seem to understand the cultural significance of the deep ingrained fear, hurt and anger that fuels conflict, which people have endured during many years, on both sides.
> 
> To make a comment of "carrying energy of fear..." etc etc is insensitive, perhaps more naive, but dangerous. Have one of your siblings, parents, family or friends been raped, or forced to have intercourse with each other, or hijacked or murdered? If not, abstain from making well-meant, but off the mark statements like above. Even if you manage to overcome your fear, you still have to be extremely vigilant, and THAT is abnormal. Look after yourself and enjoy Cape Town  By the way, I'm still in South Africa, but a man with a plan...


i'm sorry you think i'm insensitive, but you are ridiculously naive if you think canada is a crime-free utopia - people are victimized by crime there all the time. yes, i know people who have been raped (several in fact - it happens often on university campuses and within families - called incest), i know two people who were murdered, and i have also been assaulted and robbed myself. my SA partner's sister was hijacked and beaten with a bar. i also know several people who were in fatal car accidents, and my brother and i both nearly died in two separate accidents. do you think that stopped my parents from ever getting into a car again? or us for that matter? not sure if you are aware of this, but vancouver has the third highest rate of child sex trafficking. that's not so much fun either, is it?

i'm not saying ignore the risk. I'm saying that there is a difference between fear and caution. 

Fear – the Most Dangerous Thief | Yeah, but…


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

dirussell said:


> i'm sorry you think i'm insensitive, but you are ridiculously naive if you think canada is a crime-free utopia - people are victimized by crime there all the time.[/url]


 So who told you that I think Canada is crime free, I never made such a statement. Ek begin nou die idee kry dat al die varkies nie in die hok is nie.

The facts speak for themselves. You have no idea what you're talking about, and it seems to me your vested interest is marketing your Blog here.

Let me put this straight: ANY person, in my opinion, especially those who do not understand the complex situation in South Africa, telling others that things are OK here (especially clever expats living here), are short of having blood on their hands when well intended people searching advice on this forum read the nonsense some post here, and make life changing decisions based on it. Your comparrison with Vancouver or any part of the world is insane and so typical of expats trying to prove that what we are experiencing happens all over the world. It's clear that you haven't done proper homework on the crime issues in South Africa.


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## dirussell (May 20, 2010)

vegasboy said:


> So who told you that I think Canada is crime free, I never made such a statement.
> 
> The facts speak for themselves. We really need positive people like you. I am positive too. But you have no idea what you're talking about, and it seems to me your vested interest is marketing your Blog here.
> 
> Let me put this straight: ANY person, in my opinion, especially those who do not understand the complexed situation in South Africa, telling others that things are OK here, are short of having blood on their hands when well intended people searching advice on this forum read the nonsense some people post here, and make life changing decisions based on it. Your comparrison with Vancouver or any part of the world is insane.It's clear that you haven't done proper homework on the crime issues here.


who's telling people it's ok? no one is saying that there are no dangers here. 

do you think my SA partner and his family who all love me would bring me here if they thought it was anymore dangerous than, say, east LA or the inner parts of NYC? i have friends who teach in the gang-ridden areas in both cities. yes, it is dangerous. yes, you have to be cautious. but if you are a person who chooses not to be afraid of death, then what is the big deal??? many people, especially religious ones, are not afraid of death. if you are not afraid of death (which, by the way happens to everyone, like it or not at some point) then you are free. i choose to be free, as do my SA relatives and friends. yes, there are dangers here, but for me, mental prisons are worse than death...they are longer, drawn out ones that slowly kill the body, mind and soul. 

there is no point arguing because if you are afraid of death and i am not, we will never agree. so let's agree to disagree and be done with this discussion with no hard feelings.


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

dirussell said:


> who's telling people it's ok? no one is saying that there are no dangers here.
> 
> do you think my SA partner and his family who all love me would bring me here if they thought it was anymore dangerous than, say, east LA or the inner parts of NYC? i have friends who teach in the gang-ridden areas in both cities. yes, it is dangerous. yes, you have to be cautious. but if you are a person who chooses not to be afraid of death, then what is the big deal??? many people, especially religious ones, are not afraid of death. if you are not afraid of death (which, by the way happens to everyone, like it or not at some point) then you are free. i choose to be free, as do my SA relatives and friends. yes, there are dangers here, but for me, mental prisons are worse than death...they are longer, drawn out ones that slowly kill the body, mind and soul.
> 
> there is no point arguing because if you are afraid of death and i am not, we will never agree. so let's agree to disagree and be done with this discussion with no hard feelings.


 No hard feelings, agreed. I noticed your constant reference made to mental institutions. How about supporting them (this is no joke) by sms'ing the word MENTAL to 31222. It will cost you R10 a week, and you will get a positive encouraging sms every day Mo-FRi. You can stop by sms'in STOP MENTAL to 31222
Have a blessed time in Cape Town.


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## dirussell (May 20, 2010)

vegasboy said:


> No hard feelings, agreed. I noticed your constant reference made to mental institutions. How about supporting them (this is no joke) by sms'ing the word MENTAL to 31222. It will cost you R10 a week, and you will get a positive encouraging sms every day Mo-FRi. You can stop by sms'in STOP MENTAL to 31222
> Have a blessed time in Cape Town.


mental institutions? when i say mental prison i mean that a person is trapped in his/her own mind - they can't escape obsessive thinking and it becomes a living hell in their own heads. i'm not referring to psychiatric hospitals. but it sounds like a good cause.


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

dirussell said:


> mental institutions? when i say mental prison i mean that a person is trapped in his/her own mind - they can't escape obsessive thinking and it becomes a living hell in their own heads. i'm not referring to psychiatric hospitals. but it sounds like a good cause.


 I know what you mean  Keep up the good work


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Part of what you love about South Africans is the fact that they live with and adjust to fear every day.
and for the Family who have taken you into their hearts some would have learnt fear during the war years.
Fear is something you live with everyday, its an old friend.
and your comments are merely another task on the old refrain that those who left are 
1) Racists
2) Cowards
3) traitors.

I dont fear death, he's an old friend too, I have buried enough friends and family to know him well.
I dont fear being thought of as a coward , I have been places and done things that scared the sh!t out of me, and did not break, still thought my way through it, when others who were really all talk were crying.
I am enough of a pragmatist to know that disease or accident can take my beloved wife or daughter at any time.
I have no control over that.

But!!.. I do have control of what the percentages are.

in much the same way that your much vaunted comments about not driving if you fear death, do you wear a seatbelt or not?
If yes, why?

And I dont give a damn wether you stay there or not, prefer it if you do.
but your flip, arrogant, immature summations of pople who HAVE experienced far more trauma than you have, that you can possibly comprehend, belie the intelligence obvious in your blog.
Unless you are merely doing it to create more controversy.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

I think the "varkies and the hok" statement made by another poster is pretty apt here....


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## mman (Nov 15, 2009)

Whats up with you guys? Do you attack everyone that has anything positive to say about South Africa?


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

mman said:


> Whats up with you guys? Do you attack everyone that has anything positive to say about South Africa?


No but one needs a balance not pixie dust...... Positivity is all well and good if its backed up by hard evidence. Saying something does not make it so.... and giving false hope is nasty business.


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## Cnf (Mar 17, 2010)

Halo said:


> No but one needs a balance not pixie dust...... Positivity is all well and good if its backed up by hard evidence. Saying something does not make it so.... and giving false hope is nasty business.


True to a point but the thread was created for positive posts only ... there are plenty of threads where individuals can post in a more negative or balanced fashion.

It is almost as if people are scanning this forum for anything positive .... "I just spotted a positive comment ... let's lynch the poster *flame* *flame*"

:focus:


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

mman said:


> Whats up with you guys? Do you attack everyone that has anything positive to say about South Africa?


I dont know, whats up with you guys, every time someone posts something mildly critical of the SA Govt, there are flames about how crime happens everywhere, how bitter the expat are, how unable they are to fit into their new lives and how great the country and scenery are.

Its facing not just a challenge, its entire future is at stake.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Cnf said:


> True to a point but the thread was created for positive posts only ... there are plenty of threads where individuals can post in a more negative or balanced fashion.
> 
> It is almost as if people are scanning this forum for anything positive .... "I just spotted a positive comment ... let's lynch the poster *flame* *flame*"
> 
> :focus:


As stated above.... I think they are fair game as unless the positive posts are justified and REAL, they need to be debunked.


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## zambezi.king (Oct 8, 2009)

I think we need to have a sticky that states the following facts:

PROs:
Weather 
Scenery
People

CONs:
Crime that is STATISTICALLY 10 TIMES HIGHER than the 99%or the world.
Violence
Cost of living (if you don't have a forex based salary)

Etc
Etc
Etc

The way some people bang on about the weather and scenery you would think that everyone from outside South Africa is actually coming from the dark side of the moon or the worst depths of hell or Siberia.

I think most people asking for info want FACTS not some-one's blog spot on how things function in the most secure complex, in the most secure neighbourhood, in the safest town in the most scenic part of the country... they want facts that they can apply to their own situation. Most don't have dumper trucks full of cash and most won't be able to live the life the "PRO" South Africans talk about.

So when some-one like "Blue Bull" asks is it a good Idea to return... look at HIS situation. He is a newly qualified game ranger that will be paid very little, live on farms that might face attacks or being handed back to the "rightfull" owners. His wife will have to travel every day on rural roads to get the child to school (lets not even talk about the rural schooling that the poor child will be subject to). The wife will probably have to work in the town or part time if she is lucky on the farm for next to nothing. 

Yes, people like me, Halo, Dax & Vegasboy (if I may be so bold) can sometimes paint a gloomy, scary picture but that is what faces MOST people that will arrive here... not the Forbes Fortune 500 life style. 

If it was me asking advice I would rather be scared off than spend thousands to get here and find the facts on the ground don't tally with the pie-in-the-sky advice I was given... would you like that??


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## Cnf (Mar 17, 2010)

_@zambesi.king_ You make some good points but all I can comment on are my own experiences, which are:

*Crime*
* The worst crime that I have ever been touched by is a stolen car, which was parked outside my house at night.
* The worst crime that any of my extended family have been touched by is .... my stolen car.
* I have lived in Pretoria, Midrand and Johannesburg for most of my life.
* Yet I read about the high level of crime around me ... and real or imagined it has a massive impact on your life. You lock yourself up and are on a constant state of awareness. This is probably the toughest to explain to someone not used to South Africa. I slept like a baby when I lived in Hong Kong and the UK.

*Cost of Living*
* South Africa is expensive to live in and the "cheap to live here" myth should be exposed. Most people earn increases of 2-5% per year but *real* inflation runs at double that.
* However, you find more luxury car drivers here than in most countries but I believe this is a cultural statement (of values and priorities) rather than an economic statement.
* In addition, the cost of domestic assistance is ridiculously low here. I recall paying approx 55 GBP (approx R700) per morning in London for cleaning services. Naturally at this price we only had the house "professionally" cleaned one morning a week.
* Brand and imported goods are very expensive in South Africa but knock-offs and local clothing etc is cheap.
* Housing is very cheap versus Hong Kong or the UK.
* Private schooling is cheaper but not by a long way and the quality of schooling is lower.

*Work Opportunities*
* Contrary to what many people believe .... career progression (even for a white person) is quicker here that just about anywhere else in the world. However, you have to be very good else you will suffer the quotas required by companies wanting to claim the employee equity points in their BBBEE audits.

*Summary*
* South Africa is a great country with lots of potential .... but it is a ticking bomb and only time will tell whether it can be diffused.


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## zambezi.king (Oct 8, 2009)

CNF,

I don't have a problem with people expressing the positive and the fact that most of us will not be victims of VIOLENT crime etc, it is just that it is more likely here. Hell, I don't want to scare off investment that might save this place, I don't want people to be nervous wrecks before they arrive and therefore live a smaller life, I even want to be proven wrong when I say that this place is bad and no substantial improvement is on the horizon... but I am a realist and look at the situation I currently find myself in. When someone says to me that crime happens all over the world so therefore that negates the "crime issue" here I just want to violently remove their teeth from their mouths!!! The situations are VERY VERY differnet. The facts are the facts and I try to deal in those only without too much bias. This is sometimes hard because my perceptions are coloured by my experiences. I will let the "PRO South Africa" (does not mean I am ANTI) have their say and point of view but it must be based on fact. Furthermore there are those that just refuse point blank to see anything that does not fit their point of view and that is sad.

What I also wanted to say in my previous post is to those that say you are only a victim if you let yourself be or just get over it etc... that is not only an extremely niave point of view but it is also an intensely personal injustice to any victim. Why do you think that there is a mountian of research about living in long term stressful situations, living with the constant threat of (real or imagined) physical danger, breakdown of society due to long term exposure to violence, post traumatic stress syndrome,etc... then you get some blogger who has the audacity to assume they have the answer!! 

My parting thought is this... who are the real patriots????? The ones who never complain and say everything is great and berate those that have anything "negative" to say? *OR* is it those that will not let standards slide, who speak out against injustice and corruption and refuse to be bullied by the politically correct or lead by the blinkered??


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

PS What happened to our criminologist... She must be making big bucks writing elsewhere.


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

Great to see your visa was approved, congratulations! I decided to better on your profile pic, so watch this space...


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## Deuville (May 9, 2010)

i found your reply fair; u have ur "ups" and "downs" in it. Thank u.


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## Cnf (Mar 17, 2010)

vegasboy said:


> Great to see your visa was approved, congratulations! I decided to better on your profile pic, so watch this space...


Looking forward to it


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## jockm (Jun 23, 2009)

Deuville said:


> i found your reply fair; u have ur "ups" and "downs" in it. Thank u.


Yes, fair is the right word and refreshing to read.


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## BBJ (Jul 6, 2009)

*Think you're wrong mate!*

" i feel far away from suicide bombings, car bombings and terroist attacks on buildings, buses and nightclubs".

Thats really strange I was actually at the same table that PAGAD put the bomb under the night before the Planet Hollywood Bomb in Cape Town. We were supposed to meet there the next night as it was my friends birthday, we were too hungover...... thank god! I believe a few people lost limbs in the blast.

A while later my wife and 5 year old daughter and I were having lunch in Blues, when the bomb went off downstairs in St. Elmo's in Camps Bay, we felt the blast, I witnessed the carnage from the balcony above.

Just telephoned my friend in Parklands Cape Town, we normally say howzit about once a month, he was stabbed in the arm twice two days ago, in the middle of Cape Town. Oh sorry once last thing.... my two close friends that were forced to kneel down before they were shot through the head. Yeah you're right, nothing to worry about!!! How can you say you feel far away from it, when it is always just a metre away from you. It pervades your daily life. It truly is one of the beautiful countries on the planet, but as with Niger, Chad, Nigeria, Somalia, Ethiopia, Tanzania, Ivory Coast, Rwanda, Uganda, Senegal and of course billion percent inflation, mad bob's Zimbabwe, it will and is going the same way. Such a shame, I would move back tomorrow, it really is a stunning place.


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## mman (Nov 15, 2009)

Well compared to England?


* 2000 1 June: Bomb explodes on Hammersmith Bridge
* 2000 20 September: RPG attack SIS Building
* 2001 4 March: A car bomb explodes outside the BBC's main news centre in London. One London Underground worker suffered deep cuts to his eye from flying glass and some damage was caused to the front of the building.[15] (See 4 March 2001 BBC bombing)
* 2001 16 April: Hendon post office bombed
* 2001 6 May: The Real IRA detonate a bomb in a London postal sorting office. One person was injured. [16]
* 2001 3 August: A Real IRA Bomb in Britain explodes in Ealing, West London, injuring seven people.[17] (See 3 August 2001 Ealing bombing)
* 2001 4 November: Car bomb explodes in Birmingham[18]
* 2005 7 July: The 7 July 2005 London bombings conducted by four separate Islamist extremist suicide bombers, killing 56 people and injuring 700.
* 2007 January - February: The 2007 United Kingdom letter bombs
* 2007 30 June: 2007 Glasgow International Airport attack perpetrated by Islamist extremists.
* 2008 22 May: 22 May 2008 Exeter bombing by an Islamist extremist, injuring only the perpetrator.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Thats 11 Bombs in 8 years.
total loss of life?
53 in the tube bombings if I recall?
that's basically one average day in SA
how many others?
In 8 years?


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## Cnf (Mar 17, 2010)

It's a probability "thing" 

In some countries the chances of being affected by violent crime are similar to the chances of winning the Lotto .... 

Whilst in other countries it is closer to the to odds of South Africa winning the 2010 World Cup.

However, people do win the Lotto and you could move to a "safe" country and be robbed/raped/murdered on the day you arrive. A friend of mine moved to Sydney, many years ago, to escape the crime in South Africa and she was violently robbed on the day she arrived there ... go figure.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Cnf said:


> It's a probability "thing"
> 
> In some countries the chances of being affected by violent crime are similar to the chances of winning the Lotto ....
> 
> ...


Sure it is but the question will always be - why put yourself in that situation. One thing that you(we) are forgetting is the hate in South Africa which does not exist in other 1st world countries.... Crime is all about taking possessions not the taking of life.

Like you said "crime happens everywhere" but its a poor argument when talking about South Africa as its everywhere, intense and violent.


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## Thelege (Jun 2, 2010)

I grew up there and have fond memories. I miss the countryside, particularly the Drakensberg and the bush; the smell of tar and woodsmoke on a chill morning or at twilight. Boy those were the days. Sadly the legacy of apartheid has left an ugly scar that will take two or more generations to heal, meaning the country's citizens will live like prisoners in their own homes and fear for their lives for the forseeable future
I drove past my old house a few years ago in a genteel suburb of Durban and it was blanketed in razor-wire and an electric fence. If that's quality of life then I'm Luke Skywalker.


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## mman (Nov 15, 2009)

Daxk said:


> Thats 11 Bombs in 8 years.
> total loss of life?
> 53 in the tube bombings if I recall?
> that's basically one average day in SA
> ...


Im referring to terroist attacks


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

mman said:


> Im referring to terroist attacks


There were enough of those in SA..... I missed the Heidelberg pub terror attack buy only a couple of days (one of my locals at the time) - Thank heavens they were not trained with automatic weapons.


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## BBJ (Jul 6, 2009)

*Facts are Facts*

May I suggest you take a look at nationmaster website for South Africa crime rating. You have listed 10 YEARS of problems in the United Kingdom, please add up the amount of injured and dead in the those incidents. South Africa has well over 40,000 murdered a year, thats 100 a day. So what you are saying is in ten years we have less death in those atrocities you have listed in the UK than in one day in South Africa.

I have of course left out the 56,000 reported rape, whereupon it is widely believed that this represents only 5% of the actual figure due to most rape in SA not being reported. Should the true figure be revealed it would probably be about a million rape a year, or the equivalent of the entire female population every 21 years.


* 2000 1 June: Bomb explodes on Hammersmith Bridge
* 2000 20 September: RPG attack SIS Building
* 2001 4 March: A car bomb explodes outside the BBC's main news centre in London. One London Underground worker suffered deep cuts to his eye from flying glass and some damage was caused to the front of the building.[15] (See 4 March 2001 BBC bombing)
* 2001 16 April: Hendon post office bombed
* 2001 6 May: The Real IRA detonate a bomb in a London postal sorting office. One person was injured. [16]
* 2001 3 August: A Real IRA Bomb in Britain explodes in Ealing, West London, injuring seven people.[17] (See 3 August 2001 Ealing bombing)
* 2001 4 November: Car bomb explodes in Birmingham[18]
* 2005 7 July: The 7 July 2005 London bombings conducted by four separate Islamist extremist suicide bombers, killing 56 people and injuring 700.
* 2007 January - February: The 2007 United Kingdom letter bombs
* 2007 30 June: 2007 Glasgow International Airport attack perpetrated by Islamist extremists.
* 2008 22 May: 22 May 2008 Exeter bombing by an Islamist extremist, injuring only the perpetrator.[/QUOTE]


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

BBJ, not sure what your point is?
If you are attacking me, we appear to be on the same side.

PS: Nationmaster's facts are way out of date and understated.


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## mman (Nov 15, 2009)

BBJ said:


> May I suggest you take a look at nationmaster website for South Africa crime rating. You have listed 10 YEARS of problems in the United Kingdom, please add up the amount of injured and dead in the those incidents. South Africa has well over 40,000 murdered a year, thats 100 a day. So what you are saying is in ten years we have less death in those atrocities you have listed in the UK than in one day in South Africa.
> 
> I have of course left out the 56,000 reported rape, whereupon it is widely believed that this represents only 5% of the actual figure due to most rape in SA not being reported. Should the true figure be revealed it would probably be about a million rape a year, or the equivalent of the entire female population every 21 years.
> 
> ...


Please read posts properly, we are talking about terroist attacks


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

mman said:


> Please read posts properly, we are talking about terroist attacks


SA have had enough of those in years past..... Still not sure what your point is or is it just another stat?


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## BeautifulMystique (Mar 17, 2008)

rogerlee said:


> Someday, I will visit South Africa. Its my dream to live there or maybe try to live there maybe for a year. I like the weather there, not to cold and not too hot.


Finally moving to Cape Town in a month and a half! Time flies by quickly - let's just hope I have enough time to sort things out!!

:clap2:


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## mman (Nov 15, 2009)

Halo said:


> SA have had enough of those in years past..... Still not sure what your point is or is it just another stat?


I dont really care if you get my point or not, it wasnt made to you.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mman said:


> Please read posts properly, we are talking about terroist attacks


Actually the title of the thread is "south africa is good. dont post if u don't agree" no mention of talking about terrorist attacks or any other attacks!

Please try not to squabble

jo xxx


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

mman said:


> I dont really care if you get my point or not, it wasnt made to you.


Touchy


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## BBJ (Jul 6, 2009)

*Mmmm....*



BeautifulMystique said:


> Finally moving to Cape Town in a month and a half! Time flies by quickly - let's just hope I have enough time to sort things out!!
> 
> Its really strange, huge crime, massive economic problems, but I'm still jealous that you're off to Cape Town and I'm not. I simply couldn't live there as I have a wife and child, but it REALLY is so beautiful...... enjoy.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

jojo said:


> Actually the title of the thread is "south africa is good. dont post if u don't agree" no mention of talking about terrorist attacks or any other attacks!
> 
> Please try not to squabble
> 
> jo xxx



Then where is the OP?
This thread was started to create friction by a troll who registered to do so, and left.
He and the thread therefore have no credibility.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

BBJ said:


> Its really strange, huge crime, massive economic problems, but I'm still jealous that you're off to Cape Town and I'm not. I simply couldn't live there as I have a wife and child, but it REALLY is so beautiful...... enjoy.


Sadly the beauty is only skin-deep....


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## BBJ (Jul 6, 2009)

*Sa / uk*



Halo said:


> Sadly the beauty is only skin-deep....


I disagree, the beauty is intrinsic and everlasting. No matter what the ANC do to the country (unless they really do lose control of their nuclear program) it will always be one of the most picturesque and naturally awe inspiring locations on the planet. 

That said...... Zim is now a wasteland. Mad Bob issued permits so that his army and security goons can go and kill wildlife in the game parks (he cant feed his people) so its quite common to see Dead Elephants, Giraffe etc.. with a leg or two hacked off. So maybe you're right, after all he's supported by most of the African leaders, so they obviously could follow that route. I personally have seen the poachers many times coming into the Natal parks with AK47's so maybe the wildlife will suffer but the landscape will remain? I suppose its the same everywhere if you have millions of people refusing to work but having millions of babies... In fact if you know the Sub Saharan African people well, they seem to have an air of entitlement around them, although its like "I deserve someone to give me money and send me aid and food" even when you build aid programs like schools etc. most of the assets are stolen, the building falls into disrepair, the roofing is stolen at night and it just stops, a waste of money! On reflection the UK has millions of people who think the same "I don't want to work, just give me money so that I can have more kids and go down the pub and buy my ****" I think the difference is for some reason the UK positively encourages you to have more kids by paying you more and giving you a bigger house every time you have another kid, for some its a brilliant business and the tax payer (moron) pays for it. No wonder the Uk is bankrupt eh? and we don't have gold, diamonds, uranium or room to grow crops for 60 million people yet alone the immigrants that flood in. So whose right at the end of the day? The Black guy sitting in his rondavel growing a few crops and waiting for the UK to send him nice lots of money and aid OR the UK who encourages its people not to work, pays them to have kids, still sends money to Africa (for what?) and is bankrupt because of it. I think WE are the morons, not them.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

BBJ said:


> I disagree, the beauty is intrinsic and everlasting. No matter what the ANC do to the country (unless they really do lose control of their nuclear program) it will always be one of the most picturesque and naturally awe inspiring locations on the planet.


I meant that it looks nice but the undercurrent of the folk that live there makes it only skin-deep. I do whole-heartedly agree about the UK welfare state but I still don't think you can compare it to South Africa..... If you actually look at the stats in the UK is not that bad (the BIG problem is disability benefits which they are clamping down on)

More kids is good as they will eventually be tax payers - Well, that's the theory anyway. 

Yes, South Africa is beautiful although in 10-30 years... it will be another Nigeria but it will still look good on postcards.


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## BBJ (Jul 6, 2009)

yeah, think you're right, I'll keep to fond memories and postcards.


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## Cnf (Mar 17, 2010)

BBJ said:


> In fact if you know the Sub Saharan African people well, they seem to have an air of entitlement around them, although its like "I deserve someone to give me money and send me aid and food" even when you build aid programs like schools etc. most of the assets are stolen, the building falls into disrepair, the roofing is stolen at night and it just stops, a waste of money! On reflection the UK has millions of people who think the same "I don't want to work, just give me money so that I can have more kids and go down the pub and buy my ****" I think the difference is for some reason the UK positively encourages you to have more kids by paying you more and giving you a bigger house every time you have another kid, for some its a brilliant business and the tax payer (moron) pays for it. No wonder the Uk is bankrupt eh? and we don't have gold, diamonds, uranium or room to grow crops for 60 million people yet alone the immigrants that flood in. So whose right at the end of the day? The Black guy sitting in his rondavel growing a few crops and waiting for the UK to send him nice lots of money and aid OR the UK who encourages its people not to work, pays them to have kids, still sends money to Africa (for what?) and is bankrupt because of it. I think WE are the morons, not them.


Well stated ... the UK is going to go through some interesting changes in order to rectify this problem.


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## stuart72 (Mar 21, 2010)

having lived in south africa i can verify all said about the vilence and curruption, also disease, mentality of the people etc etc etc.

the world as a whole though has many nations that may not mirror sa's position but have their own very distinct and serious problems. many countries with truly undemocratic societies, youthful life expectancies, high levels of corruption low employment rates, hude national debts ...... the list is not exhaustive but paints a picture. africa has allways been a dangerous continent whose peoples cultures are notoriously bloodthirsty and where life appears at times to have no value at all. in england i have met many sa people, some who came here years ago - due to the past political state, and in the last 5 years, many who have again moved due to the new political era. theres no way of condoning sa current situation, or its past, but there are still much worse places to live.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

stuart72 said:


> but there are still much worse places to live.


And so many better places..................


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## BeautifulMystique (Mar 17, 2008)

BBJ said:


> Its really strange, huge crime, massive economic problems, but I'm still jealous that you're off to Cape Town and I'm not. I simply couldn't live there as I have a wife and child, but it REALLY is so beautiful...... enjoy.


Thanks! 

I'm sure I will enjoy it.


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## Cnf (Mar 17, 2010)

BeautifulMystique said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I'm sure I will enjoy it.


I agree - after all the countries I have visited I still believe that the Cape is the most beautiful. I holiday there as often as possible (Hout Bay/Camps Bay) and I am still stunned by the beauty of the place.


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## stuart72 (Mar 21, 2010)

Halo said:


> And so many better places..................



On reflection the UK has millions of people who think the same "I don't want to work, just give me money so that I can have more kids and go down the pub and buy my ****" I think the difference is for some reason the UK positively encourages you to have more kids by paying you more and giving you a bigger house every time you have another kid, for some its a brilliant business and the tax payer (moron) pays for it. No wonder the Uk is bankrupt eh? and we don't have gold, diamonds, uranium or room to grow crops for 60 million people yet alone the immigrants that flood in. So whose right at the end of the day? The Black guy sitting in his rondavel growing a few crops and waiting for the UK to send him nice lots of money and aid OR the UK who encourages its people not to work, pays them to have kids, still sends money to Africa (for what?) and is bankrupt because of it. 


Yes, but the list is getting shorter. add spain, potugal, greece, ireland to this and then consider americas position and its easier to visual the many other countries that have recently taken big steps back in time


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

stuart72 said:


> On reflection the UK has millions of people who think the same "I don't want to work, just give me money so that I can have more kids and go down the pub and buy my ****" I think the difference is for some reason the UK positively encourages you to have more kids by paying you more and giving you a bigger house every time you have another kid, for some its a brilliant business and the tax payer (moron) pays for it. No wonder the Uk is bankrupt eh? and we don't have gold, diamonds, uranium or room to grow crops for 60 million people yet alone the immigrants that flood in. So whose right at the end of the day? The Black guy sitting in his rondavel growing a few crops and waiting for the UK to send him nice lots of money and aid OR the UK who encourages its people not to work, pays them to have kids, still sends money to Africa (for what?) and is bankrupt because of it.
> 
> 
> Yes, but the list is getting shorter. add spain, potugal, greece, ireland to this and then consider americas position and its easier to visual the many other countries that have recently taken big steps back in time


I feel you are generalising as that's NOT what the stats show.... (i feel allot of what you are saying is anecdotal and misleading) Sure, they have taken a few steps backwards but still leagues ahead of SA in just about every-way.


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## Apple2 (Jan 18, 2010)

It's getting better but there are still big problems, But this tends to be the case in many Afrrican countries.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Apple2 said:


> It's getting better but there are still big problems, But this tends to be the case in many Afrrican countries.


How is it getting better?


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## Therooster (Jul 1, 2010)

DannyBoy said:


> WHAT planet are you on where "Skilled and motivated people advance their careers quicker here, as with most growth markets, versus the mature markets.".
> 
> I know of 16 HIGHLY SKILLED I.T professionals (myself included) who could NOT get work in "Sunny South Africa" because they were a lighter shade of pale.
> All these young white kids going to London to do menial lousy bartender and baby-sitter jobs 'cos they can't get work due to their RACE in your Utopian dreamland.
> ...


The South Africa white employment rate is less than 5 %. And there's a whole bunch more than 5% of white South Africans who are useless and incapable. Anyone with some form of skill or qualification in South Africa is in high demand. 

I love how people can propose we have a skills shortage but they maintain they can't get a job at the same time. So which is it ? There's no jobs going around for skilled people or there is a shortage ?

The answer is....drumroll....

Someones got a chip on their shoulder about racial issues !


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## Therooster (Jul 1, 2010)

making a post so I can link..


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## Therooster (Jul 1, 2010)

and one more..


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## Therooster (Jul 1, 2010)

oh just to link to that, because someone is bound to ask.

Demographics of South Africa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> The unemployment rate of the White population aged 15-65 is 4.1%.


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## zambezi.king (Oct 8, 2009)

Therooster said:


> The South Africa white employment rate is less than 5 %. And there's a whole bunch more than 5% of white South Africans who are useless and incapable. Anyone with some form of skill or qualification in South Africa is in high demand.
> 
> I love how people can propose we have a skills shortage but they maintain they can't get a job at the same time. So which is it ? There's no jobs going around for skilled people or there is a shortage ?
> 
> ...


Or the other truth that you can get a position below your ability and be happy to provide for your family no matter meagre the salary but you take it because you were brought up not to bleat about life being unfair and you know pride comes before a fall.

Or the other truth that you will be passed over due to BEE.

Or the other truth that you will not be even considered for advancement due to AA / BEE.

How many hundred or even thousands of positions are left unfilled due to quotas that have to be filled. So now... let's talk racial issues.... 

Sometimes there is no chip just a different point of view or perspective. Get over it, you live in Africa and race will (for a while still) be a issue.


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## marieannetta (Mar 22, 2010)

I'm very happy in SA. I visit the Kruger National Park regularly, take weekend trips to Parys and Magaliesburg and fight the traffic on week days.

I stay vigilant at all times, do not drive alone at night and have a well-secured home.

My lifestyle is adjusted to my circumstances and I remain involved in local ward meetings and the police forum.

I have travelled to the UK, Australia and the US. All three countries have fantastic pluses. 
However, if you feel you can't really live without SA, then there is still a good life to be had here.
Stay in a good neighbourhood that is well resourced and run by an active residents' association. Like the Parktown North Residents Association - they have a website. Google that and you'll get a sense of what can be done.


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## BeautifulMystique (Mar 17, 2008)

Moved to Cape Town 3 weeks ago. Having a blast. Living in a safe neighbourhood. Got a job a week ago and now, living my life in Cape Town!

Of course there are places that are not safe, but hey it's the same everywhere else.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

BeautifulMystique said:


> Moved to Cape Town 3 weeks ago. Having a blast. Living in a safe neighbourhood. Got a job a week ago and now, living my life in Cape Town!
> 
> Of course there are places that are not safe, but hey it's the same everywhere else.


Nope, it aint.
I'm in Jhbg now, was in Pietermaritzburg and Durban until yesterday.
It all looks fine till you talk to the people who actually live here for longer than 3
weeks.


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## BeautifulMystique (Mar 17, 2008)

Daxk said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> Nope, it aint.
> I'm in Jhbg now, was in Pietermaritzburg and Durban until yesterday.
> ...


In this 3 weeks, I have met people from the ages of 33 - 64. They have lived here all their lives and surprisingly, none had anything bad to say. Sure one or two were robbed but that happened to my aunt back in my country too.

So what's your point? Just because you had bad experience or rather you do not like SA at all, doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else. I'm tired of your putting down SA all the time. Move on already. You live a better life elsewhere, good for you.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

BeautifulMystique said:


> In this 3 weeks, I have met people from the ages of 33 - 64. They have lived here all their lives and surprisingly, none had anything bad to say. Sure one or two were robbed but that happened to my aunt back in my country too.
> 
> So what's your point? Just because you had bad experience or rather you do not like SA at all, doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else. I'm tired of your putting down SA all the time. Move on already. You live a better life elsewhere, good for you.


no BM, my family live here, and you are here les than a wet day.
I too speak to people constantly and when you have lived in SA, not just in CT for a lot longer than now, let us speak again.
in the meantime, if you had not trotted out the old "it happens everywhere" I would not have commented.
pray tell, your Aunt, tell the story?
was it a knife? gun? was she tied up?

I love SA BM, I think its people are great, but people such as you who constantly try and deny that SA has huuuuuge problems, prevent SA from fixing itself.

so when you have lived there for a year or two, kiddo, speak to me again,
you dont have the right yet to tell me to move on.


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## BeautifulMystique (Mar 17, 2008)

Daxk said:


> no BM, my family live here, and you are here les than a wet day.
> I too speak to people constantly and when you have lived in SA, not just in CT for a lot longer than now, let us speak again.
> in the meantime, if you had not trotted out the old "it happens everywhere" I would not have commented.
> pray tell, your Aunt, tell the story?
> ...


My aunt was robbed while she was buying fruits at the stall.

On another story, my uncle was held at gun point, forced to watch his wife raped and then all their belongings taken away. This happened a couple of years ago.

Myself, I believe it all depends on where you live in CPT, KL, London, Brisbane, Chicago, Jakarta, Roma etc.

I have the right to say whatever I want, just as much as you and anyone else. Thanks.


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

I returned to SA after living abroad for almost 11 years and in all honesty must say that I am very happy to be back. Life here is not all paradise, but tell me of any country that has only positives, if not the weather, then it may be the crime rate or whatever.
I chose to return and love being back, seeing people smile and being able to see stars at night!!!


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

yes, but because we have opposing views I dont attempt to tell you to shut up.
until you try and tell me to do that.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Do you think that the aggression on the SA forum may give folk the impression that SA is an aggressive country????

STOP SQUABBLING PLEASE ! 

Jo xxxx


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

jojo said:


> Do you think that the aggression on the SA forum may give folk the impression that SA is an aggressive country????
> 
> Jo xxxx


It is....


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Halo said:


> It is....


As the thread title says............ * "south africa is good. dont post if u don't agree" *

Jo xxxxx :yo::yo::becky:


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## zambezi.king (Oct 8, 2009)

jojo said:


> As the thread title says............ * "south africa is good. dont post if u don't agree" *
> 
> Jo xxxxx :yo::yo::becky:


Then in the same light maybe I should start a thread...

Mugabe / Bin Laden are pillars of the community... don't post if you don't agree!!

OR MAYBE

Kiddie porn is great... don't post if you don't agree!!

Although we don't go for sensorship we should go for the facts. Lets not allow burying your head in the sand to become the norm. Facts are facts are facts, where are all those who tried to dispute the facts? Relegated to their own little corners of fantasy land. It is great to have a positive thread like this could have been and I would have contributed but lies and half truths must be exposed as such.

Have a smashing day!


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

BeautifulMystique said:


> In this 3 weeks, I have met people from the ages of 33 - 64. They have lived here all their lives and surprisingly, none had anything bad to say. Sure one or two were robbed but that happened to my aunt back in my country too.
> 
> So what's your point? Just because you had bad experience or rather you do not like SA at all, doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else. I'm tired of your putting down SA all the time. Move on already. You live a better life elsewhere, good for you.


JoJo, I do NOT tell people to move on with their life, everysingle person I have met in SA STILL live in fortresses, crime IS still rampant. so that IS the same for everyone else.
Beautiful Mystique has been in SA for Three weeks, apart from the 54 years I spent here, I have been here longer than that THIS Holiday.

I Do NOT normally attack people personally, I attack or dispute facts.
unless I am attacked, personally.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Daxk said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> JoJo, I do NOT tell people to move on with their life, everysingle person I have met in SA STILL live in fortresses, crime IS still rampant. so that IS the same for everyone else.
> Beautiful Mystique has been in SA for Three weeks, apart from the 54 years I spent here, I have been here longer than that THIS Holiday.
> ...



I'm simply making the point to all who post on here that no one wants to read slanging matches or personal insults! So a gentle reminder every now and again doesnt go amiss!

Jo xxx


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## robosch (Sep 13, 2008)

Hello again people, I've read so many of the threads on the SA forum and have gained a lot of knowledge about SA. If I said I was not a little apprehensive about coming, I would be telling lies - but that said, I am looking forward to the experience. I must admit that many posts would see me walking around in a chain-mail suit or in an armored vehicle, but I AM happy to get so much information from so many different strokes, as it were. 

We leave in a little over 6 weeks for Langebaan and I'm popping over for a look at rental properties in three weeks. 

Hopefully we will have a great experience and stay safe. Perhaps we'll even come across one or two forum members, who knows!


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

robosch said:


> Hopefully we will have a great experience and stay safe. Perhaps we'll even come across one or two forum members, who knows!


Hope you will be very happy and have a wonderful stay in SA!


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## robosch (Sep 13, 2008)

Thanks! I'm an aging British ex-pat now, and have lived in India, Ireland, The UK (born there) Israel, France and now looking to settle in SA. Must admit I ought to settle, at my age!!!


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

robosch said:


> Thanks! I'm an aging British ex-pat now, and have lived in India, Ireland, The UK (born there) Israel, France and now looking to settle in SA. Must admit I ought to settle, at my age!!!


Why? 

I firmly believe that life is for living and whilst one is still healthy and relatively fit, enjoy every moment!

:clap2:


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## berley77 (Aug 9, 2010)

Johanna said:


> I returned to SA after living abroad for almost 11 years and in all honesty must say that I am very happy to be back. Life here is not all paradise, but tell me of any country that has only positives, if not the weather, then it may be the crime rate or whatever.
> I chose to return and love being back, seeing people smile and being able to see stars at night!!!



Hi there,

I'm looking at moving to SA, and after reading some threads to say the least I am a little confused. I am originally from England and would really appreciate your view on how to obtain a position and whether I have a good chance of securing employment. I was wondering if the salary paid is quite low in caparison to the UK as well, i'm looking at roles paying R3000-R5000 per month, is this a normal salary for an Office Manager, Executive Assistant? Your experience and advice would be so greatfully received. Thanks again in advance. K


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## berley77 (Aug 9, 2010)

robosch said:


> Thanks! I'm an aging British ex-pat now, and have lived in India, Ireland, The UK (born there) Israel, France and now looking to settle in SA. Must admit I ought to settle, at my age!!!


Hi there,

I've just messaged another senior expat, but as you are from England too and seem to have travelled allot, I would really appreciate your advice too....

I'm looking at moving to SA, and after reading some threads to say the least I am a little confused. I am originally from England and would really appreciate your view on how to obtain a position and whether I have a good chance of securing employment. I was wondering if the salary paid is quite low in caparison to the UK as well, i'm looking at roles paying R3000-R5000 per month, is this a normal salary for an Office Manager, Executive Assistant? Your experience and advice would be so greatfully received. Thanks again in advance. K


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## robosch (Sep 13, 2008)

Hi, We're not in SA for another few weeks. Can't really help you with salaries, but I know there are threads about it - just look to the right of the screen, a little further up this page and you'll see 'jobs in SA' and you'll find salaries and stuff like that there.

Good luck!


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## robosch (Sep 13, 2008)

Johanna said:


> Why?
> 
> I firmly believe that life is for living and whilst one is still healthy and relatively fit, enjoy every moment!
> 
> :clap2:



Thanks Johanna - we are REALLY looking forward to our move. We're in Chennai right now (10 years) My son is really peeved about not having snow at Christmas time though - he's only just looked on the map and found out which hemisphere Cape Town is....:loco:

I guess it's as some have put down here, that you can be happy, that you can be safe and just never let your guard down and become complacent - then you'dbe asking for trouble.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

robosch said:


> Thanks Johanna - we are REALLY looking forward to our move. We're in Chennai right now (10 years) My son is really peeved about not having snow at Christmas time though - he's only just looked on the map and found out which hemisphere Cape Town is....:loco:
> 
> I guess it's as some have put down here, that you can be happy, that you can be safe and just never let your guard down and become complacent - then you'dbe asking for trouble.


you can ski at Tiffendell in the winter.


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

berley77 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I'm looking at moving to SA, and after reading some threads to say the least I am a little confused. I am originally from England and would really appreciate your view on how to obtain a position and whether I have a good chance of securing employment. I was wondering if the salary paid is quite low in caparison to the UK as well, i'm looking at roles paying R3000-R5000 per month, is this a normal salary for an Office Manager, Executive Assistant? Your experience and advice would be so greatfully received. Thanks again in advance. K


Hi berley77, I have no idea what salary scales for Office managers are, sorry, can't be of assistance there. Have you tried the gumtree.sa or google?
I think it would depend a lot on where you live as to what the salary would be, in Gauteng it would be more than in the Western Cape


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## robosch (Sep 13, 2008)

Daxk said:


> you can ski at Tiffendell in the winter.


Bit past it for that Daxk -


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

sit on a tobaggan! lol


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## BeautifulMystique (Mar 17, 2008)

jojo said:


> I'm simply making the point to all who post on here that no one wants to read slanging matches or personal insults! So a gentle reminder every now and again doesnt go amiss!
> 
> Jo xxx


Thanks for the reminder, Jojo


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Ah , see the SA forum hasn't changed. Two completely different views of the same country. Like the thread attempt though


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

1. The thread was started by a Troll
2. The are many views of South Africa but sadly only one reality that some people try and blot out.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Halo said:


> 1. The thread was started by a Troll
> 2. The are many views of South Africa but sadly only one reality that some people try and blot out.


Well ... you seemed to make the decision it was a troll after the first post  As long as I have been moderating SA forums, any positive posts on SA are usually met with derision.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> Well ... you seemed to make the decision it was a troll after the first post  As long as I have been moderating SA forums, any positive posts on SA are usually met with derision.


My observation (and not just myself) was on based on previous posts on other threads. :tinfoil3:
Because they are not metered with reality.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Halo said:


> Because they are not metered with reality.


You mean because they are positive? 
Surely you're not suggesting HCR?


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> You mean because they are positive?
> Surely you're not suggesting HCR?


I plead the 5th


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## zambezi.king (Oct 8, 2009)

SA must be the utopia that HCR talks of...
Relatives (you just can't choose them) arrived in Dublin last Sunday lunchtime and phoned and screramed and moaned to their parents "how could they suggest such a ghastly place to bring up thier grandchildren!" They hated the place and had booked their return flights back already....

TIME OF ARRIVAL: LUNCHTIME.
TIME OF BOOKING RETURN TICKETS: ABOUT 6PM THE SAME DAY!!

Now I ask you how can you make a decision like that in just a few hours. Their container (costing them R45 000) is still on its way there not to mention all the other things asociated with emmigrating. No doubt this brainiac dicision will go towards the HCR propaganda!

p.s. In defense of my family honour... this brainiac married into the family... how can someone 's choice of a life partner be soooooo bad


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

I chose not to live in Dublin for some of the the same reasons I would not live in SA again (I'm in SA at the moment)
Dublin is a gridlocked City with some very strange people.
its roads are gridlocked through lack of planning,and it has the highest crime rate of anywhere
in Ireland.
Its also why I live in Galway.


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## zambezi.king (Oct 8, 2009)

So I hear, a city is a city is a city in many respects. But for someone who has never left SA except maybe for a short excursion into Angola many years ago I would have thought he would have at least done some homework before emmigrating or even given it a day or so.

As they say in SA... EISH!!


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## MinilumpisMama (Jul 27, 2010)

So, this is the positive "thread" on SA?! Wow, fascinating! 

I've read the whole thread from the beginning and I sense so much hostility and the inability of some people to just let other people enjoy something good for a little while. (I'm cringing now, waiting for the verbal attacks and derision on statements) As a few people have already pointed out, this was started as a thread to say a few positive things about SA. No one denies that there is violence, crime, rape, burglary, inequality, injustice, you name it. No one who has posted something positive has denied that but do let those who have experienced something positive have their say. Look around, there are MANY MANY threads touting the negatives and the impending doom of SA. Ok, we get it but it is really ok NOT to post on this thread if you don't have anything positive to say. There are plenty of threads for you to vent your opinions (some very valid) about SA that are not positive.

I am not, in any way, making light or ridiculing anyone's negative experiences nor am I saying that SA's is something to make light of. God forbid! But no matter how torn, ravaged and violent a country is, there are people who still see beauty in it. Those people (or one of them) tried to start a thread to celebrate whatever may be left in SA worth celebrating but some people just can't let that happen, can they?...and I don't understand it. We are all entitled to our own opinions of course, but this is a thread for POSITIVE opinions. Let it be that way and let there be room for saying something positive about SA without being ridiculed for it. Saying or admitting anything positive about SA will not prevent it from getting better like one of the posts claimed. Far from it. There are still people moving to SA everyday because they believe in its future. In a separate thread, someone said it's ok that some SA'ns are leaving because that means there will never be a shortage of housing for people moving in. A different perspective and a different way of looking at things I would say. You may see the glass of SA as half empty or half full, different strokes. BUT this is a thread for the "half full" folks. If you have no hopes for SA, that's quite ok but don't post on this thread.....no matter how "unrealistic" that may sound to you.

The average person who wants to make a decision about from moving to SA will only consider this forum a place where mostly discouraged and bitter SAs who now live as Expats elsewhere post. Can't live there anymore and don't want anybody else to live there either. I'm saying this from personal experience. I went to the thread entitled "the truth about SA" and I got plenty of negative and shocking information about crime especially. But I found the information to be mostly helpful and quite ok since I wanted to know about the different sides of SA. But then I clicked on this thread hoping to learn about some positive aspects and, lo and behold, it's mostly negative as well. Come on people, let some people enjoy SA and not be afraid of being attacked if they write about it. Of course they may not have the experience you have with the past as born and raised SA's but can you just let them enjoy it nonetheless? Also do not forget that some people do come from countries where live is decisively worse than it is in SA (and not only other African countries) so maybe they are just not "naive". Maybe they really are thankful to be in SA for their own personal reasons...and you attempt to belittle their gratitude and experience. 

I don't come from a war torn country. I'm from New York and I was raised not to go to Central Park or any park at night because I might get beaten, raped or even killed, to be suspicious of anything quiet because there is safety in numbers and noise, to never go to the Bronx or parts of Brooklyn at night, to always watch out for flying bullets, to always quadruple lock my apartment door and windows, always use a peep hole..... I'm sure listing some of those negative experiences would make me seem more valid in the face of the negative comments but what's the point? I still love the big Apple even though I've been living in Europe for 13 years now. The security measures to be taken SA doesn't seem too far apart from those I grew up with it in NYC so the various attempts to only be negative and knock the positive comments as "naive" or from a "troll" sounds to someone from the outside just trying to do some research as "bitter". 

I don't need anyone to reply to my post with stats and more bad news. Everyone's experiences and feelings are valid and positive thinking doesn't mean that anyone is laughing at your past experiences and bad memories. Maybe someone just wants to post or read something positive because they need a little hope. 

So, please just leave this thread alone for some positive thinking if you have nothing positive to say...even though to you the comments may be unrealistic, naive, even stupid. Just look the other way, click on another thread....go on, you can do it!


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## MinilumpisMama (Jul 27, 2010)

And now, trying to practice what I just preached......

(Believe me, I can post negatives too but that will be in another thread)

I go to SA every year. I only go to Cape Town and the surrounding areas. So, no I do not know Jo'Burg and other parts of SA. But based on my experiences in Cape Town only (no, I don't particularly like Cape Town the first time I visited mostly based on all the negative comments I had heard but I really honestly love it now and) I love it more each time we visit.

My husband and I do get stared at a lot when we are at a nice hotel or at a resort on the Garden Route or in a wine country probably because we have different skin colors (but we live in Europe and we are SO used to that) but we also often stay in the middle of Cape Town where we are thankfully treated like everyone else.

--we find that people are very laid back. Much more laid back than in Germany.

--people are warm and friendly, especially the more you get to know them. They will go out of their way to help you or give you directions. Some people will even take you to the street you're looking for to make sure you don't get lost. And Capetonians are ready to talk about and give you advise about just about anything 

--they love children in SA. It is not unusual for restaurant staff to come and just grab our daughter - happens more outside of Cape Town - and give her treats in the kitchen or even take care of her until we leave. I remember this alarmed us the first time it happened since we were not used to it but now we are just so grateful to have the chance to eat in peace.

--The landscape, the landscape, the landscape. The Table Mountain, the ocean, definitely worth moving for!

--The food!

--The wildlife

--The weather

Will post more as I think of other things.....

Thanks in advance for letting me post some of the things I like about SA!


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

And thank you for these two refreshing postings!


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

MinilumpisMama said:


> So, this is the positive "thread" on SA?! Wow, fascinating!
> 
> I've read the whole thread from the beginning and I sense so much hostility and the inability of some people to just let other people enjoy something good for a little while. (I'm cringing now, waiting for the verbal attacks and derision on statements) As a few people have already pointed out, this was started as a thread to say a few positive things about SA. No one denies that there is violence, crime, rape, burglary, inequality, injustice, you name it. No one who has posted something positive has denied that but do let those who have experienced something positive have their say. Look around, there are MANY MANY threads touting the negatives and the impending doom of SA. Ok, we get it but it is really ok NOT to post on this thread if you don't have anything positive to say. There are plenty of threads for you to vent your opinions (some very valid) about SA that are not positive.
> 
> ...


 Dear MinilumpisMama, Thank you for your admonishment. In all fairness, this thread has a history which does not reflect in it, and was started in cruel retaliation to other posts. This thread is going nowhere. I think it would be better if Jojo could close this thread so someone else could start a positive one.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Very well.
a small correction if Imay?
you said:"I still love the big Apple even though I've been living in Europe for 13 years now."

What makes you think that we dont love SA as a Country?


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## BeautifulMystique (Mar 17, 2008)

MinilumpisMama said:


> So, this is the positive "thread" on SA?! Wow, fascinating!
> 
> I've read the whole thread from the beginning and I sense so much hostility and the inability of some people to just let other people enjoy something good for a little while. (I'm cringing now, waiting for the verbal attacks and derision on statements) As a few people have already pointed out, this was started as a thread to say a few positive things about SA. No one denies that there is violence, crime, rape, burglary, inequality, injustice, you name it. No one who has posted something positive has denied that but do let those who have experienced something positive have their say. Look around, there are MANY MANY threads touting the negatives and the impending doom of SA. Ok, we get it but it is really ok NOT to post on this thread if you don't have anything positive to say. There are plenty of threads for you to vent your opinions (some very valid) about SA that are not positive.
> 
> ...


Absolutely brilliant post, MM! Thank you for posting this and I concur. I feel the same way about my country - in all fairness, it can be a lot of - and + in my country but when a thread with a title "Positive input on Malaysia" - I would definitely write just about that!

I can't thank you enough for this post 

Bless you!


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## BeautifulMystique (Mar 17, 2008)

MinilumpisMama said:


> --we find that people are very laid back. Much more laid back than in Germany.
> 
> 
> > Yes, they are very laid back! Reminds me of people from my country too so I kinda feel at home - lol.
> ...


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## MinilumpisMama (Jul 27, 2010)

Daxk said:


> Very well.
> a small correction if Imay?
> you said:"I still love the big Apple even though I've been living in Europe for 13 years now."
> 
> What makes you think that we dont love SA as a Country?


Daxk: I really don't want to be dragged into what may turn into a negative discussion but, to someone from the outside looking in, reading all the comments - most of the negative ones coming from SAs now expats in other countries, it might sound like you used to love your country but now you don't anymore. Anyone who might possibly be considering moving there should be bluntly discouraged and anyone who might have any positive feelings towards SA should be attacked as a liar or as naive especially those who have only lived there for a few weeks or months. They obviously haven't "seen nothing yet". Perhaps you're right but they have a right to enjoy their new-found enthusiasm for a beautiful city nonetheless.

I've read a lot of threads here about SA for the last several weeks and really considered whether I should post or not. I don't want to be part of the problem and I don't want to squabble. I just wish everyone can have a little room to express their different opinions no matter how positive or negative - in the appropriate threads.

But Daxk, I never said that you don't like your country nor did I even imply it. I respect every imput especially if I'm to make an informed decision about moving to Cape Town but I don't only want to read about the negatives - on every single thread! It gets tiring. I also mentioned that I found some of the negative comments helpful when expressed in the right place. This is not that place. 

Btw - I love NYC...chili hotdogs, crazy cabbers, New Year's eve, Broadway, working on scripts in 42nd Street Cafe until 4am in the morning.....please don't get me started!  I love the positives and I think the negatives (also a long list) go with it. And no matter how long I've lived abroad - mostly due to my job and the fact that I'm married to a German who would rather move to SA than NYC - I will always be a Manhattan girl at heart. And if anyone wants to move to NYC, no matter how many negative experiences I have had there, I would always encourage them to try it for at least a year. It may not be for everyone but give it a try, I would say. The experience will definitely change you...for better or for worse, who knows?...and does it matter?


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## MinilumpisMama (Jul 27, 2010)

vegasboy said:


> Dear MinilumpisMama, Thank you for your admonishment. In all fairness, this thread has a history which does not reflect in it, and was started in cruel retaliation to other posts. This thread is going nowhere. I think it would be better if Jojo could close this thread so someone else could start a positive one.


Hi vegasboy....you must really love life if you really do live in Vegas. You lose all sense of time, which is not always a bad thing . I spent my 35th birthday in Vegas with family and a bunch of friends from Germany. I wanted a really glitzy and cheesy birthday and I loved it! 

Anyway, thanks for your take on my post. Maybe you're right and it might be better to start a new thread. We'll let the administrator decide.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

"I would say. The experience will definitely change you...for better or for worse, who knows?...and does it matter? "

It only matters if someone is looking for any justification to do what they wish to do already.
he one over riding statement from every naysayer who still posts o here is... do whatever you want, but do it well informed.
this post was started by someone who came in, posted to create inflammatory discussion...
started this thread..... AND HAS NOT POSTED SINCE!

Go to SA, Please do.
Make a difference.. Please Do.

But one thing I will agree with you, if you make a mistake, at the wrong time, and that could be in the bad area that might be your Home or your car, because you are not as aware as you should be, then it will CHANGE your life, and it WILL matter.

enjoy SA, it ISa beautiful place, itDOES have great people..
but it needs to sort some things out urgently.
and not talking about them is something they are trying to impliment right now, as law.


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## MinilumpisMama (Jul 27, 2010)

Hey *BeautifulMystique*, your posts have helped me as well. My husband and I are moving to SA in the next 3 to 5 years which is a really big move for us because we have children, businesses and houses to sell and buy etc. So we're giving up a lot but hopefully to get a lot as well....but not necessarily financially. Your input has also helped a great deal and I hope, no matter what may happen to you in SA or in the Cape Town area, that you will always keep your high hopes and enthusiasm. God knows we may need it - and be contacting you for some of it - soon 

But glad that you like CT and that your experiences have been good so far. I hope and pray that it stays that way for you.

There is also someone who posted here a while back whose posts I really enjoyed reading. 
*dirussell*, if you're still reading this thread, thanks for your posts. I also enjoyed reading your blog.


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## BeautifulMystique (Mar 17, 2008)

I must say you're really something else, MM. You seem very level-headed and see things from all perspectives.

I agree with you that those who have only been in SA for a few weeks or even months have the right to enjoy their new-found enthusiasm. I do hear awful stories from friends I have made in Cape Town and even before I left, I have friends telling me I am crazy for moving here but I believe that one has to come here to experience everything herself - good and bad. After all, it is MY life. I'm not stupid or naive enough to walk around in dark places or go anywhere all by myself, heck I don't even do that in my own country.



MinilumpisMama said:


> I respect every imput especially if I'm to make an informed decision about moving to Cape Town but I don't only want to read about the negatives - on every single thread! It gets tiring. I also mentioned that I found some of the negative comments helpful when expressed in the right place. This is not that place.


This is where you differ from some people - you respect every input regardless if they were negative or positive.

And yes, it does get tiring and for me, it can be a yawn-fest!

I love being here, I find it better to get perspectives from those in their 30s or so, to be honest. Refreshing and even their parents seem to have better things to say about SA!



> Btw - I love NYC...chili hotdogs, crazy cabbers, New Year's eve, Broadway, working on scripts in 42nd Street Cafe until 4am in the morning.....please don't get me started!  I love the positives and I think the negatives (also a long list) go with it. And no matter how long I've lived abroad - mostly due to my job and the fact that I'm married to a German who would rather move to SA than NYC - I will always be a Manhattan girl at heart. And if anyone wants to move to NYC, no matter how many negative experiences I have had there, I would always encourage them to try it for at least a year. It may not be for everyone but give it a try, I would say. The experience will definitely change you...for better or for worse, who knows?...and does it matter?


Sighs. Broadway! I miss it and the chili hotdogs were awesome! I had one bad experience when I was in NYC but I will definitely go back next year for a holiday with SO!


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

MinilumpisMama said:


> Hi vegasboy....you must really love life if you really do live in Vegas. You lose all sense of time, which is not always a bad thing . I spent my 35th birthday in Vegas with family and a bunch of friends from Germany. I wanted a really glitzy and cheesy birthday and I loved it!
> 
> Anyway, thanks for your take on my post. Maybe you're right and it might be better to start a new thread. We'll let the administrator decide.


 I'm actually still in South Africa and try to spend as much time possible at my Florida US residence. I often spend a week or so in NYC. Now to me, THAT IS LIFE, well, apart from Florida living.

Ask a "negative" person on this forum whether they still like South Africa, and they will almost always respond with an overwhelming YES of course! Most of the posters here have been victims of crime, directly or indirectly, which is what sets this forum apart from any other. Yes we know crime happens all over the world, but it really is different to here.

On a positive note: If you haven't been to Cape Town, you haven't seen the world.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

MinilumpisMama said:


> So we're giving up a lot .


I couldn’t have put it better.


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## MinilumpisMama (Jul 27, 2010)

BeautifulMystique,

Can you send me a personal message when you get a minute? I'm curious to know what you do (do you have a work website or something like that?) and why you moved to Cape Town. And why Cape Town? What challenges you've faced, bureaucratic, personally etc 
Thanks!


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## MinilumpisMama (Jul 27, 2010)

Halo said:


> I couldn’t have put it better.


"...hopefully to get back a lot." If you want to quote me, please have the decency not to put it out of context. You are right, I do not know everything you know about SA. But you please just stop being so aggressively negative, pushy and attacking. I'm sick of it. We, who are not SAs, are trying to be hear to learn and inform ourselves of the choices and you obviously spend needless hours going through posts to see what you can criticize and misquote. Well, well done! I'm sure you can find other things in my post to take out of context.

Why don't you just let some people have their own experiences and not YOUR experience.


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## MinilumpisMama (Jul 27, 2010)

I guess it's hopeless posting here and I'm just going to stop like so many other people who are tired of all the negativity at every possible turn. Posting anything not blatantly negative and/or racist on this forum is obviously asking to be pounced on and ridiculed.

Good luck!


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## BeautifulMystique (Mar 17, 2008)

MinilumpisMama said:


> There is also someone who posted here a while back whose posts I really enjoyed reading.
> *dirussell*, if you're still reading this thread, thanks for your posts. I also enjoyed reading your blog.


Yes, I know Dianne. We have been keeping in touch and her blog helps as well 

I won't tell you to disregard the negative posts on here because you know better and are matured enough to know what to take in and apply to your situation/choices. It can be frustrating to read some of them but I don't let them get to me and you shouldn't either 

Keep in touch, MM and I'll be glad to answer any of your questions and I'll be sure to have my friends from Cape Town help you out as well.


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## Johanna (Apr 13, 2009)

MinilumpisMama said:


> I guess it's hopeless posting here and I'm just going to stop like so many other people who are tired of all the negativity at every possible turn. Posting anything not blatantly negative and/or racist on this forum is obviously asking to be pounced on and ridiculed.
> 
> Good luck!


Please do not stop posting here, then those with the negative attitudes will have won once again. 
I love being back, loved the 11 years I spent abroad, but it is good to be back and great to read your postings.


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## zambezi.king (Oct 8, 2009)

MinilumpisMama said:


> I guess it's hopeless posting here and I'm just going to stop like so many other people who are tired of all the negativity at every possible turn. Posting anything not blatantly negative and/or racist on this forum is obviously asking to be pounced on and ridiculed.
> 
> Good luck!


And there it is again... when someone positive comes along and berates the "negative" posters and those posters then reply the word racist comes into the post. 

All the "negative" people are trying to get across is a balanced point of view and highlight some issues / facts, such as...

If you want to go to Germany, Australia, Jupiter... then log on go to the govt or other credible websites and you get HONEST, CREDIBLE facts, statistics etc... that simply does not happen in SA. Believe it or not we, "the negative", want you here we want people who have a fresh apporach and positive outlook, the country is crying out for investment and hope. THE SIMPLE FACT IS WE WANT YOU TO HAVE THE FULL PICTURE. It is much like someone who jumps into a freezing pool... you ask them how it is and they always say"great, come on in"... not an outright lie but not the whole truth either.

Like you said this type of info has helped you. If this thread had remained factual or the posts that contain outright untruths were not posted then it would have been a superb thread... I can tell you, and show you, a side of SA that has such beauty and charm it would make the much vaunted Cape Town seem drab and lifeless, BUT I WOULD NEVER LIE TO YOU OR TRY TO INFLUENCE YOUR LIFE-CHANGING DECISIONS WITH LIES AND HALF TRUTHS.

To anyone who reads this thread I say come... you are more than welcome, live a full any happy life and don't live in fear, yes there is a staistically higher risk but not a certainty of incident. Do a "pro" and "con" list *WITH FACTS*. If you are forwarned then you are forarmed. Thereafter do a cost/benefit exercise and make your decision on what you deem accepatable.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

The negatives have been pointed out! Its really not worth the bother to repost them everytime someone posts the positives. It just antagonises people. Even I now know that there are negatives of living in South Africa and I rarely read this forum nor do I know anything about SA! So cut some slack and allow people to have some cheer without the dangers (which they will know about) being constantly and repeatedly pointed out!!!!

Maybe you should try and have two tandem threads running simultaneously "pros" and "cons" 

Jo xx


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

jojo said:


> The negatives have been pointed out! Its really not worth the bother to repost them everytime someone posts the positives. It just antagonises people. Even I now know that there are negatives of living in South Africa and I rarely read this forum nor do I know anything about SA! So cut some slack and allow people to have some cheer without the dangers (which they will know about) being constantly and repeatedly pointed out!!!!
> 
> Maybe you should try and have two tandem threads running simultaneously "pros" and "cons"
> 
> Jo xx


 GREAT idea, I'll set it up  See you guys there...


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

jojo said:


> Maybe you should try and have two tandem threads running simultaneously "pros" and "cons"
> 
> Jo xx


What if the PRO is an outright lie?

PS Luv it when you play mom


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Halo said:


> What if the PRO is an outright lie?
> 
> PS Luv it when you play mom


Its subjective and as with everything on a forum the information is based on peoples own experiences and opinions, so it wont be a lie, it'll be someone elses opinion thats different to yours!!?????

...... as for playing "mom"????? hhhmmm, is that a compliment or an insult lolol!!!!!!! I think I've had too many kids, its changed my personality !!!!!! 

Jo xxx


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

jojo said:


> Its subjective and as with everything on a forum the information is based on peoples own experiences and opinions, so it wont be a lie, it'll be someone elses opinion thats different to yours!!?????
> 
> ...... as for playing "mom"????? hhhmmm, is that a compliment or an insult lolol!!!!!!! I think I've had too many kids, its changed my personality !!!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


That's the problem... It needs to be objective.

Compliment luv


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Halo said:


> That's the problem... It needs to be objective.
> 
> Compliment luv


Individually it is objective!! Thats what opinions are all about - the experience of each person is going to be different to someone elses for whole variety of reasons! 

You know how you see it from experience and its good to share, but by the same token there will be people who see a different side and they need to be able to share that too

Now go and tidy your room 

Jo xxx


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Incorrect.... Experience s are "nice" but it means nothing without grounding. 
e.g. The people in Soweto/Sandton/xxx were fantastic, everybody was so friendly and warm - I got a real sense of unity, a earnest desire to embrace the diversity that South Africa has to offer as by tour bus stopped so we could buy some trinkets.

Yes Mum :tongue1:


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