# negative feedback



## janey2 (Mar 31, 2011)

have been looking at moving abroad for many years, but now the kids are old enough to look after themselves the dream seems more easier, however after reading so many posts on here am now wondering if its the right thing to do. I just feel if i dont give it a go i may have missed out on something i have always wanted to do. prob is we have never worked in a bar/restaurant and that seems the only opportunity open to us. suggestions on a postcard please!!


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

janey2 said:


> have been looking at moving abroad for many years, but now the kids are old enough to look after themselves the dream seems more easier, however after reading so many posts on here am now wondering if its the right thing to do. I just feel if i dont give it a go i may have missed out on something i have always wanted to do. prob is we have never worked in a bar/restaurant and that seems the only opportunity open to us. suggestions on a postcard please!!


You are going to hear a multitude of variations on the same theme.... don't come here expecting to find work,unless you have a skill that is in demand.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

janey2 said:


> have been looking at moving abroad for many years, but now the kids are old enough to look after themselves the dream seems more easier, however after reading so many posts on here am now wondering if its the right thing to do. I just feel if i dont give it a go i may have missed out on something i have always wanted to do. prob is we have never worked in a bar/restaurant and that seems the only opportunity open to us. suggestions on a postcard please!!


There are very few bar and restaurant jobs around lol!! What you need to do is come over with and see how it goes. DONT sell up in the UK, dont even give up jobs, just take an extended holiday and see what happens. If you find work and if you settle, then arrange to get your UK house rented out and give up your jobs. I know that feeling of regretting not doing it - which is why I'm here. Sometimes you have to try things to find out. You're informed and know that things arent easy, so dont make the mistake of giving everything up - not until you know for sure it'll be alright - cos it might be????

I know we seem a negative bunch, but remember, most of us had the same dream that you've got and some found out the hard way that a world recession can crush that dream and turn it into a nightmare

Jo xxx


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## janey2 (Mar 31, 2011)

im trying to think out of the box, other half is thinking of buying bar/cafe but i wouldnt want that kind of commitment im sure there must be a way of making a living without having to work 7days a week, i think the best thing we can do is come out there and spend a month as residents and see how we get on, just as a matter of interest would we still be entitled to the uk old age pension? not that we are anywhere near retirement age yet lol


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

janey2 said:


> im trying to think out of the box, other half is thinking of buying bar/cafe but i wouldnt want that kind of commitment im sure there must be a way of making a living without having to work 7days a week, i think the best thing we can do is come out there and spend a month as residents and see how we get on, just as a matter of interest would we still be entitled to the uk old age pension? not that we are anywhere near retirement age yet lol


DO NOT BUY A BAR/CAFE! You've said that you havent any experience, even if you had, you would be far better off if you give your money to me instead and I'll spend it for you lol!!!

Seriously tho, the coming out for a month initially and getting a feel for it is the best idea! And yes you can transport your UK pension over here. 

Jo xxx


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## janey2 (Mar 31, 2011)

jojo said:


> There are very few bar and restaurant jobs around lol!! What you need to do is come over with and see how it goes. DONT sell up in the UK, dont even give up jobs, just take an extended holiday and see what happens. If you find work and if you settle, then arrange to get your UK house rented out and give up your jobs. I know that feeling of regretting not doing it - which is why I'm here. Sometimes you have to try things to find out. You're informed and know that things arent easy, so dont make the mistake of giving everything up - not until you know for sure it'll be alright - cos it might be????
> 
> I know we seem a negative bunch, but remember, most of us had the same dream that you've got and some found out the hard way that a world recession can crush that dream and turn it into a nightmare
> 
> Jo xxx


we are now thinking to come out and rent a place for a month and then maybe find a bar/cafe that will let us work in it for a couple of weeks for FREE to see how hard it is. Me personally think we need to go the spanish route and get them on side and find a bar that they will come to even if it means employing a spanish person until i learn the lingo lol. am looking to enrol on a course cos at the mo can only translate written words lol


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

janey2 said:


> we are now thinking to come out and rent a place for a month and then maybe find a bar/cafe that will let us work in it for a couple of weeks for FREE to see how hard it is. Me personally think we need to go the spanish route and get them on side and find a bar that they will come to even if it means employing a spanish person until i learn the lingo lol. am looking to enrol on a course cos at the mo can only translate written words lol


Just come over and see what things are like. By all means offer to help in a bar, but dont buy one and dont dream too much about it. Think of something else??! 

....... Can I just add that its not just "hard" work that makes owning a bar difficult. From what I've seen, its the sitting around knowing that the bills are mounting and that you've only had a handful of customers who've only bought a couple of coffees that makes it hard! You have to have a very low profit margin to compete and entice, which may not be enough to cover your costs, let alone give you any pay

Jo xxx


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## dinnow (Feb 14, 2011)

Janey, you seem very reluctant to accept the advice that you asked for which is unanimously that buying a bar in Spain has been the road to financial ruin for many of our pals and other Brits that we have known. By all means come out and work in a bar for free - if you can find anywhere that will take you - but ask yourself why? Because you still harbour the dream. And as others have said here and on countless other threads, employment prospects for expat Brits with no Spanish and no unique selling point are, well, nil.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

dinnow said:


> Janey, you seem very reluctant to accept the advice that you asked for which is unanimously that buying a bar in Spain has been the road to financial ruin for many of our pals and other Brits that we have known. By all means come out and work in a bar for free - if you can find anywhere that will take you - but ask yourself why? Because you still harbour the dream. And as others have said here and on countless other threads, employment prospects for expat Brits with no Spanish and no unique selling point are, well, nil.



We all have to find things out for ourselves! The advise is here and I'm sure that its noted! But sometimes we need to "feel" it for ourselves! So damage limitation is the name of the game. That way if things do work out then brilliant, but if they dont, its not been a costly mistake! 

Jo xxx


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## janey2 (Mar 31, 2011)

so if not a bar/restaurant what else could we set up, im sure there must be a business that locals and tourists really need,, my other half is a taxi driver here, i have worked in a bank, looked after the elderley,was a child minder, done cleaning and worked in the retail sector plus i love the travel business how much reastically do i need to earn to live on?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

janey2 said:


> have been looking at moving abroad for many years, but now the kids are old enough to look after themselves the dream seems more easier, however after reading so many posts on here am now wondering if its the right thing to do. I just feel if i dont give it a go i may have missed out on something i have always wanted to do. prob is we have never worked in a bar/restaurant and that seems the only opportunity open to us. suggestions on a postcard please!!


As others have said working in a bar/ restaurante isn't a good choice now as what with the economical crisis and people spending less, some bars claiming that the smoking ban has brought a slump in trade, unemployment at 20% so far more Spaniards on the job market etc etc, the catering trade isn't booming. Somewhere someone will have a bar or café that's doing well - and they're probably going to hang on to it . Those establishments are not usually for sale!
Apart from that, personally I would never choose to work in this area. The opening hours are basically dawn to dusk. For the first few years at least, before you can afford to employ others (also an expensive business in Spain) you'll be working flat out - literally.
I would ask yourself why you want to come to Spain, what you hope to get out of changing countries and then explore and see if it's a real possibility or not. Perhaps you need to think about delaying for a couple of years, perhaps look at a different country - or perhaps just come over to Spain anyway! It's up to you!
PS There do seem to be (limited) opportunities in IT, online gambling companies and working for a UK company on line...


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## janey2 (Mar 31, 2011)

dinnow said:


> Janey, you seem very reluctant to accept the advice that you asked for which is unanimously that buying a bar in Spain has been the road to financial ruin for many of our pals and other Brits that we have known. By all means come out and work in a bar for free - if you can find anywhere that will take you - but ask yourself why? Because you still harbour the dream. And as others have said here and on countless other threads, employment prospects for expat Brits with no Spanish and no unique selling point are, well, nil.


im not reluctant im taking every comment on board, but just wondering if things are that bad why would you all still be out there lol


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## dinnow (Feb 14, 2011)

because most of us are retired and have a pension that we can live off


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## janey2 (Mar 31, 2011)

am coming out to spain in may for a break but think i will be looking more into how the businesses are doing and asking loads of questions ans will go from there


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

janey2 said:


> so if not a bar/restaurant what else could we set up, im sure there must be a business that locals and tourists really need,, my other half is a taxi driver here, i have worked in a bank, looked after the elderley,was a child minder, done cleaning and worked in the retail sector plus i love the travel business how much reastically do i need to earn to live on?


There are telesales jobs around - thats what I'm doing - its not the most inspiring or well paid job, but its ok! 


As for how much you need to live on??? Hhhmmm, I usually say that as a rule of thumb, to live on the costas, call it about the same as the UK. ie, if you need £1,000 a month in the UK, then you'll probably get by on 1,000€ a month here! Rent, booze, cigarettes and public transport are cheaper, most other things are about the same

Jo xxx


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

janey2 said:


> am coming out to spain in may for a break but think i will be looking more into how the businesses are doing and asking loads of questions ans will go from there


Use the time on the break..look , ask...... then come back, do the same in the "off season"period. Take into account that winter here, means few tourists. 
I don't want to "dent" your dream, but you need to do an awful lot of research before deciding to move.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

janey2 said:


> we are now thinking to come out and rent a place for a month and then maybe find a bar/cafe that will let us work in it for a couple of weeks for FREE to see how hard it is. Me personally think we need to go the spanish route and get them on side and find a bar that they will come to even if it means employing a spanish person until i learn the lingo lol. am looking to enrol on a course cos at the mo can only translate written words lol


friends of mine (late 50s early 60s) own a bar which is very popular with both the local spanish & the local foreigners - she has lived here well over 20 - getting on for 30 - years & is more spanish than english - her daughters are spanish & she speaks spanish & valenciano (the local language), which is probably why they attract so many spanish people

they had a woman who covered a couple of mornings a week & saturdays for them -her daughter helped her - they paid only the mum & she gave her daughter a bit of pocket money for helping - they returned to the UK a couple of weeks ago

my friends daughter until about the same time used to do evenings, so that they could have a bit of time to themselves - she has taken a job in Valencia

it is closed on sundays - due to its position in a resdential area away from the shops & beach it isn't ever going to attract business then, except in august when all the spanish owned apartments are in use

so they are now working 6 days a week, 9am till the last drinker goes home - & trust me, if they thought it was worth it they would be working 7 days - and will be in august

their problem is that they are too busy for one person to cover for them - but they don't take enough money to pay more than one - the takings simply don't cover it


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

janey2 said:


> im not reluctant im taking every comment on board, but just wondering if things are that bad why would you all still be out there lol


I'm still here because it's home - my kids have been here more than half their lives - my business is doing well - but I am just me, teaching, and I don't need special premises that I need to pay rent & so on for & it took me 4/5 years to build it up to this stage

I am also benefitting from most of my competitors returning to the UK

but we wouldn't be here without my husband's work in the US - he can't do what he does here - he tried for years & it nearly broke us financially- & I can't work enough hours to earn enough to support us


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## Beachcomber (May 10, 2009)

janey2 said:


> just wondering if things are that bad why would you all still be out there lol


Many people that I know are still here because they are trapped with a worthless property that they are unable to sell and, therefore, unable to return to the UK. That's why I said in another thread that you should not move to Spain unless you are able to retain a property in the UK.


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## Earnie (Nov 3, 2010)

janey2 said:


> im trying to think out of the box, other half is thinking of buying bar/cafe but i wouldnt want that kind of commitment im sure there must be a way of making a living without having to work 7days a week, i think the best thing we can do is come out there and spend a month as residents and see how we get on, just as a matter of interest would we still be entitled to the uk old age pension? not that we are anywhere near retirement age yet lol



Thats the problem, people come here to work and think they dont have to *work!*. You will have to work harder here than the UK if you want to be successful there is no easy way or everyone would be doing it.
As there's so much competition people soon stop using businesses etc that arent that committed, excellent, etc.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Earnie said:


> Thats the problem, people come here to work and think they dont have to *work!*. You will have to work harder here than the UK if you want to be successful there is no easy way or everyone would be doing it.
> As there's so much competition people soon stop using businesses etc that arent that committed, excellent, etc.


I certainly work harder than I expected to!!

my dad is horrified that I teach in the evening!!

in the academy I worked at, I worked until 10pm

but if that's when people need to have classes because of their work commitments, you have little choice


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## janey2 (Mar 31, 2011)

Im not sure what the rules are on this site about advertising, but does anyone know of any letting agents who hire out apartments for a month at a time, i know there is holiday lettings. After reading all your posts, I think im going to get my oh to work harder so we can come over for a month at different times of the year and also try different areas of spain. We are in not too bad a position as i have a pension that would keep us afloat and i would let the kids pay the bills on my house (hmmm would they pay them tho!) As i mentioned before this is a great site and has certainly opened my eyes to alot of the pitfalls I am a born worrier and would never just sell up and leave but i also dont want to get in my old age and end up saying I wish i had tried that.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

janey2 said:


> Im not sure what the rules are on this site about advertising, but does anyone know of any letting agents who hire out apartments for a month at a time, i know there is holiday lettings. After reading all your posts, I think im going to get my oh to work harder so we can come over for a month at different times of the year and also try different areas of spain. We are in not too bad a position as i have a pension that would keep us afloat and i would let the kids pay the bills on my house (hmmm would they pay them tho!) As i mentioned before this is a great site and has certainly opened my eyes to alot of the pitfalls I am a born worrier and would never just sell up and leave but i also dont want to get in my old age and end up saying I wish i had tried that.


I suspect any apartment worth having is going to be advertised as a holiday rental, rather than a one-month let, especially during holiday season in popular places.

You could try cutting out the middleman and going direct to the owners (just google Owners Direct Lettings Spain). You might be able to negotiate something for low season periods when their properties might otherwise be standing empty.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> I certainly work harder than I expected to!!
> 
> my dad is horrified that I teach in the evening!!
> 
> ...


People are often surprised at just how hard the Spanish and those of us living in Spain work. The mañana myth, closely followed by the siesta myth, still persists. Whilst followers of these two beliefs can still be found in Spain, it doesn't cancel out the fact that hard workers also exist. Also having a siesta doesn't mean that you're not working hard. More often than not it means you're working long hours and you need a kip in the afternoon, or that it's just too hot to work between 2:00 and 5:00.
OH used to be out of the house from 6:00 - 22:00 when he worked in a multinational in Madrid. Some of the office workers in a bank I go to work from 9:00 - 19:00, 20:00 with an hour for lunch quite regularly. Shops are typically open from 10:00 - 20:00/ 21:00/ 22:00. They may close at lunch time or not. Not all place are like this, but at the same time such timetables are not uncommon.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> People are often surprised at just how hard the Spanish and those of us living in Spain work. The mañana myth, closely followed by the siesta myth, still persists. Whilst followers of these two beliefs can still be found in Spain, it doesn't cancel out the fact that hard workers also exist. Also having a siesta doesn't mean that you're not working hard. More often than not it means you're working long hours and you need a kip in the afternoon, or that it's just too hot to work between 2:00 and 5:00.
> OH used to be out of the house from 6:00 - 22:00 when he worked in a multinational in Madrid. Some of the office workers in a bank I go to work from 9:00 - 19:00, 20:00 with an hour for lunch quite regularly. Shops are typically open from 10:00 - 20:00/ 21:00/ 22:00. They may close at lunch time or not. Not all place are like this, but at the same time such timetables are not uncommon.


These myths make me so angry. Where I live the main industry is agriculture, mainly livestock. The hours are daybreak till sunset and the farmers are out in all weathers. They don´t get a day off; the goats have to be milked twice a day, 365 days a year. I don´t begrudge these guys one minute of their siesta.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

janey2 said:


> im not reluctant im taking every comment on board, but just wondering if things are that bad why would you all still be out there lol


The answer to that is simple. Because I like many happy people here don't need to work. When we were in the UK we owned businesses and I had a well-paid job. We sold up, took early retirement and left the UK to travel round Europe.
If I were in your position I would forget the idea of moving here for at least five years. Get a skill and learn some Spanish.
Other categories of people living happily here include people with their own prospering businesses, those with UK businesses they can run from Spain, people with secure well-paid jobs and those whose partners work elsewhere in the world in well-paid jobs.
There is no work here for Spanish people let alone non-Spanish people with no in-demand skills or professions.
And I always have to wonder why people refer to life in Spain as a 'dream'. Life in Spain is much the same as life anywhere. If you are a sensible, balanced person you can live the dream in S****horpe or Macclesfield. I can't believe that people see a few months of sunshine as a 'dream'.
It can be cold, wet and miserable here in winter with frost and snow inland. Spanish houses aren't well-insulated and fuel costs can be very high.
The other important point is that if you have had no business experience in the UK -and I mean owning and managing - then why think you can 'just do it' in Spain? There are many obstacles to surmount if you wish to start a business...licences to be obtained, social security payments to be made..and you need a good grasp of Spanish to navigate these..even if you pay a lawyer to help.
Spain is like the UK - you can't just open up a business. There are rules and regulations to cope with.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

janey2 said:


> im not reluctant im taking every comment on board, but just wondering if things are that bad why would you all still be out there lol



My husband commutes and works in the UK, so I'm here with the kids on my own here alot of the time, so I do some part time telesales to help and to give me something to do

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> My husband commutes and works in the UK, so I'm here with the kids on my own here alot of the time, so I do some part time telesales to help and to give me something to do
> 
> Jo xxx


Considering your work background and skills, you are being very modest.....
I think that the fact that with your skills and experience you haven't set up a thriving business says all that needs to be said about the scope for work in Spain.
If times were better you would surely have your own company and be rolling in dosh!!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> Considering your work background and skills, you are being very modest.....
> I think that the fact that with your skills and experience you haven't set up a thriving business says all that needs to be said about the scope for work in Spain.
> If times were better you would surely have your own company and be rolling in dosh!!



Hhhmmm, thank you Mary . As we say time and again on here, its not that easy! The rules and regs are confusing, the language and the culture is different, the recession and of course I have the kids to look after (although they're older now) and no husband for the most part. You have to know your market, be very sure and very committed to risk ploughing your money and time into a business venture!

My husband was planning to bring his business over here (home automation, multi media and hifi stuff), he even had some friends who were doing similar work here and they were planning to join forces and use the UK company as the parent company. I was going to help run it. We were going to be rich beyond our wildest dreams and live happily everafter............ but the recession hit - the UK business needed 110% of his time just to maintain an income and keep it afloat - then their was the exchange rate.... 

Jo xxx


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## gaz967 (Aug 5, 2009)

Did you find accomodation for you both Janey? do you have any ideas of what area you want to move to? 
By the way, ref the bar/cafe, yeh i know it isnt easy, it might not work out, But if you dont give it a go...............? You never know, could turn out to be a goldmine!!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gaz967 said:


> Did you find accomodation for you both Janey? do you have any ideas of what area you want to move to?
> By the way, ref the bar/cafe, yeh i know it isnt easy, it might not work out, But if you dont give it a go...............? You never know, could turn out to be a goldmine!!!



And guess what? It could also turn out to be a crock of excrementos.
What evidence have you for your optimism? Please pass it on....
This advice to people who may not have much money, who may have had no business experience, who know little of business practice in Spain to 'give it a go' should not be given serious consideration unless you have so much money that the serious possibility of losing a few £10ks is of no importance.
But then if you were that well-off you wouldn't consider running a bar in Spain in the first place.
Unless of course your name was Linneker.


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## gaz967 (Aug 5, 2009)

Yeh thats right, of course it could turn out sour, approaching buisiness with a negative attitude isnt gonna help. Im simply saying, ifs there is something someone really wants to do...my advise is go for it. (within reason) I dont ever want to look back and think " what if? " also, I didnt know Janey had "no buisiness experience" you know more than me. But that means nothing, (although it would help.) my parents started in the pub/club industry only 10 years ago in benidorm, with not a single bit of experience, but alot of hard work later and ups and downs, they now own a thriving sports bar on the coast. 1 bar Manager, 2 full time barstaff, 2 chefs and a cleaner. In the early days they got the same feedback off simler negative people. Thats evidence of my optimism. Nearly anything is possible if you put your mind to it. Go in half heartedly, and i think it recipe for disaster. 
Janey, dont be put off by other people's negativity..........But remember the 
"7 p's" Prior Planning and Preperation Prevents P%$£ Poor Performance


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gaz967 said:


> Yeh thats right, of course it could turn out sour, approaching buisiness with a negative attitude isnt gonna help. Im simply saying, ifs there is something someone really wants to do...my advise is go for it. (within reason) I dont ever want to look back and think " what if? " also, I didnt know Janey had "no buisiness experience" you know more than me. But that means nothing, (although it would help.) my parents started in the pub/club industry only *10 years ago in benidorm*, with not a single bit of experience, but alot of hard work later and ups and downs, they now own a thriving sports bar on the coast. 1 bar Manager, 2 full time barstaff, 2 chefs and a cleaner. In the early days they got the same feedback off simler negative people. Thats evidence of my optimism. Nearly anything is possible if you put your mind to it. Go in half heartedly, and i think it recipe for disaster.
> Janey, dont be put off by other people's negativity..........But remember the
> "7 p's" Prior Planning and Preperation Prevents P%$£ Poor Performance


The main point to pick upon in your post is 'ten years ago'.
The other point is 'a lot of hard work'.
Your 'evidence' is anecdotal and based on personal experience, isn't it.. More telling evidence might be the 80% failure rate of Brit bars?
It's good that your parents' hard work has paid off but in a way the success of a few should be a stark reminder that they are 'a few' in a very competitive market.
We are not 'negative', we are realistic and many of us have had experience of running businesses of all sizes, here and in Spain.
The fact that I for one am able to live here without working is due in large part to successful business activity in the UK.
But it all comes down to expectations and tastes. If your life in the UK is dull, dreary, plagued by money worries...the temptation to 'have a go' in a country like Spain must be immense.
For some, though, the prospect of uncertainty, long hours of hard work all through the year, the never-ending maze of Spanish bureaucracy would not be a dream but a nightmare.
Why not try your hand a running a bar/cafe in Blackpool, say, if you are keen to be an entrepreneur? Much easier, in many ways. Familiar language, less complicated buteaucracy, people with money to spend....I was reading this morning that the % taking UK holidays has soared this year, for obvious reasons.
Some people might say that the only difference in ambience between Benidorm and Blackpool, Morecombe etc. is hotter sun and more of it.
And it must be pointed out that there is an important distinction between negativity and objectivity...the former is a mindset, the latter involves coolly examining the facts and making a sound and sober risk calculation.
The Spain of ten years ago did not have an unemployment rate of over 20%, a sharp drop in the number of British tourists and a huge increase in the number of British immigrants returning to the UK.
Disregarding those hard facts and the experiences of those who have not enjoyed the success of your parents is sheer folly.


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## fourgotospain (May 4, 2009)

> business needed 110% of his time


I don't know a single person, in any country, of any age, and any business experience who doesn't say this. Whatever your 'opening hours' you are always working and always on call. Another 24hrs in every day would be a start!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

fourgotospain said:


> I don't know a single person, in any country, of any age, and any business experience who doesn't say this. Whatever your 'opening hours' you are always working and always on call. Another 24hrs in every day would be a start!


That is very true...unless of course you have the benefit of managers you can rely on.
We had a General Manager and a couple of departmental Managers but my OH still worked 25/7....


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> _*The main point to pick upon in your post is 'ten years ago'.
> The other point is 'a lot of hard work'.*_
> Your 'evidence' is anecdotal and based on personal experience, isn't it.. More telling evidence might be the 80% failure rate of Brit bars?
> It's good that your parents' hard work has paid off but in a way the success of a few should be a stark reminder that they are 'a few' in a very competitive market.
> ...


Janey, or any other person who would like to emigrate to Spain, please read this post and take it seriously.
We are not a load of selfish gits wanting to keep Spain to ourselves, neither do we spend our spare time making up statistics to scare. Facts are facts. Spain and the Spanish are facing huge problems at the moment that are not just going to fade away. They are problems that will be with us for years. Please look at the sticky that talks about Spain and the economy.
All we are trying to do is give you information, which after all, is why you joined the forum we presume. The person who decides is you, and if I were you I wouldn't make a decision based on what a bunch of people I've never met say on a forum . I _would _take it into account though... along various trips to the area and many hours of analysis about where you are now, what direction you want to go in and what you want the future to include .


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## casaloco (Mar 30, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Janey, or any other person who would like to emigrate to Spain, please read this post and take it seriously.
> We are not a load of selfish gits wanting to keep Spain to ourselves, neither do we spend our spare time making up statistics to scare. Facts are facts. Spain and the Spanish are facing huge problems at the moment that are not just going to fade away. They are problems that will be with us for years. Please look at the sticky that talks about Spain and the economy.
> All we are trying to do is give you information, which after all, is why you joined the forum we presume. The person who decides is you, and if I were you I wouldn't make a decision based on what a bunch of people I've never met say on a forum . I _would _take it into account though... along various trips to the area and many hours of analysis about where you are now, what direction you want to go in and what you want the future to include .


I personally love the 'negative feedback'. if everyone was saying "yes its lovely come live here" they wouldnt be helping anyone, my sister said the same words to me once so i moved to dundee and it was a living nightmare!!!!

I want to move to Spain, I need the cold hard facts to prepare myself and my family and to be sure it is the best thing to do for us.

things i have learnt in what, *a week*.....

I must rely on myself and being self employed to earn a living. luckily i have a way of doing that online with a world full of gymnasts as my customers. (so no need to take a locals job if there was one!!!)

do not tie yourself to buying a property or business premises that you cant get rid of!!

make sure you have a safty net back in the uk if things go belly up, an amount of petrol money to get back to the UK, deposited somewhere safe is probably not a bad idea.

learn spanish immediatly!!! kids have already started

to find out excatly what papers and legalities must be attained.

the supermarkets dont have cash machines (thanks jo)

properties inland are cheaper than the coast,

wooly jumpers and thermals are neccessary, portable gas heaters are a good idea!!!

and much more.
and i cannot thank the people on this site enough for being honest xxx

I think if you cannot take into account the negatives, or you are worried by them, it may not be the move for you!!!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

casaloco said:


> I personally love the 'negative feedback'. if everyone was saying "yes its lovely come live here" they wouldnt be helping anyone, my sister said the same words to me once so i moved to dundee and it was a living nightmare!!!!
> 
> I want to move to Spain, I need the cold hard facts to prepare myself and my family and to be sure it is the best thing to do for us.
> 
> ...


Casaloca has done an intensive course in the Spain forum and has learned a lot. She has earned a gold star and can go out to play early!!


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## casaloco (Mar 30, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Casaloca has done an intensive course in the Spain forum and has learned a lot. She has earned a gold star and can go out to play early!!


Thankyou muchly!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

casaloco said:


> I personally love the 'negative feedback'. if everyone was saying "yes its lovely come live here" they wouldnt be helping anyone, my sister said the same words to me once so i moved to dundee and it was a living nightmare!!!!
> 
> I want to move to Spain, I need the cold hard facts to prepare myself and my family and to be sure it is the best thing to do for us.
> 
> ...



With that attitude you will be prepared and won't be disappointed.
A lot depends on expectations too. When I lived in Prague, an American woman I knew told me that 99% of immigrants from the US, UK who had settled in Prague were there because, to use her words, 'they couldn't hack it back home'. 
She included herself in that category.
On reflection, I belonged in that category too...not for economic reasons but because I simply hated everything about the place I lived in back in the UK and the general dumbing down of manners, political life, the media..everything, really.
Many of the Brits in Prague were not well-educated, were working in low-paid dead-end jobs, few had enjoyed a secure 'middle-class' lifestyle in the UK or US but enjoyed life in Prague because it was 'different', a kind of adventure, it was cheap, very cheap, compared to the UK, they had a kind of 'status' they would never have enjoyed back home and for the men, no matter how fat, old and ugly, they were a target for a certain type of Czech woman who falsely imagined all western foreigners to be loaded. So they enjoyed a much better life than back in Baltimore or Basingstoke.
Now....you clearly have a good, solid business, family and social life in the UK. 
It's only common sense to think very carefully before leaving that behind.
And it's clear that you are doing that.


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## casaloco (Mar 30, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> With that attitude you will be prepared and won't be disappointed.
> A lot depends on expectations too. When I lived in Prague, an American woman I knew told me that 99% of immigrants from the US, UK who had settled in Prague were there because, to use her words, 'they couldn't hack it back home'.
> She included herself in that category.
> On reflection, I belonged in that category too...not for economic reasons but because I simply hated everything about the place I lived in back in the UK and the general dumbing down of manners, political life, the media..everything, really.
> ...


i cant say i have any social life. go from home to gym back to home 7 days a week.

i havent been out with my friends for 5 years.

and for months now i cant get through a day without saying 'i hate this place'


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## dinnow (Feb 14, 2011)

casaloco said:


> I personally love the 'negative feedback'. if everyone was saying "yes its lovely come live here" they wouldnt be helping anyone, my sister said the same words to me once so i moved to dundee and it was a living nightmare!!!!
> 
> I want to move to Spain, I need the cold hard facts to prepare myself and my family and to be sure it is the best thing to do for us.
> 
> ...


Not necessary to learn Spanish but if it makes it more real for you, fine. But you're not going to get any Spanish customers in your bar and those that do come in will want to speak English. And you're going to need a gestor to deal with officialdom which your level of Spanish would not be able to cope with. So you don't need Spanish language skills.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

dinnow said:


> Not necessary to learn Spanish but if it makes it more real for you, fine. But you're not going to get any Spanish customers in your bar and those that do come in will want to speak English. And you're going to need a gestor to deal with officialdom which your level of Spanish would not be able to cope with. So you don't need Spanish language skills.



So.....what length of residence in Spain leads you to that conclusion?
Although I do not consider speaking Spanish to be mandatory with a penalty attached for not learning it, if you are considering residing permanently in Spain you will find your life and business dealings somewhat circumscribed if you do not acquire at least basic conversational Spanish.
Whilst it may be true that there are parts of Spain where English is in common use there are very many parts where it is not.
And it would be a very foolish person who opened a bar which catered to only one nationality.
A recent survey showed that fewer than 20% of Spaniards speak any English, including the Prime Minister. There are also large communities of Eastern Europeans, Chinese, South Americans etc. who will speak little if any English and who may be dying of thirst as they pass your bar.
As advice for a prospective bar owner, your post frankly ranks in general uselessness with those who say 'What have you got to lose? Go for it!'.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

dinnow said:


> Not necessary to learn Spanish but if it makes it more real for you, fine. But you're not going to get any Spanish customers in your bar and those that do come in will want to speak English.  And you're going to need a gestor to deal with officialdom which your level of Spanish would not be able to cope with. So you don't need Spanish language skills.


So the delivery drivers, suppliers, gas fitters, electricians, funcionarios, etc etc all speak English do they? Or are you advising the OP to hire a translator every time? And turn away any Spanish customers that do come in? Get real!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> So.....what length of residence in Spain leads you to that conclusion?
> Although I do not consider speaking Spanish to be mandatory with a penalty attached for not learning it, if you are considering residing permanently in Spain you will find your life and business dealings somewhat circumscribed if you do not acquire at least basic conversational Spanish.
> Whilst it may be true that there are parts of Spain where English is in common use there are very many parts where it is not.
> And it would be a very foolish person who opened a bar which catered to only one nationality.
> ...


:clap2:

and apart from all that -casaloco doesn't even want to open a bar!!!


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## casaloco (Mar 30, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> :clap2:
> 
> and apart from all that -casaloco doesn't even want to open a bar!!!


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Have just got back from hectic, but very good session with the gym kids. this has just creased me up!!! thankyou!!! oh i needed a good laugh, :clap2::clap2::clap2:


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## dinnow (Feb 14, 2011)

Post number one suggests that the original dream was the bar dream. And if a Brit opens a bar a Brit had better do so in a very Brit or very expat location because the Spanish are not going to flood to an expat bar. So Spanish is desirable not essential.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

dinnow said:


> Post number one suggests that the original dream was the bar dream. And if a Brit opens a bar a Brit had better do so in a very Brit or very expat location because the Spanish are not going to flood to an expat bar. So Spanish is desirable not essential.


Calling Jimenato!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

dinnow said:


> Post number one suggests that the original dream was the bar dream. And if a Brit opens a bar a Brit had better do so in a very Brit or very expat location because the Spanish are not going to flood to an expat bar. So Spanish is desirable not essential.



Thats a tad naive dont you think??? I can think of many, many Spanish bars and many other nationality bars in my home town in the UK that do very nicely. In the town I used to live in here, Alhaurin de la torre, I can think of one Irish bar, a lebonese bar, a weird Thai bar, a french wine bar, several chinese restaurants, an indian restaurant, a belgian restaurant, a couple of italian restaurant/bar places...... Now Alhaurin de la Torre is a very Spanish town - not many expats of any nationality. That said, it is a very affluent town and actually, maybe thats a good place to open a British bar selling real ale, meals in baskets, morning coffee, aftenoon teas - scones..... ooooh I can feel a business plan coming on ???! Anyone want to invest??? 

Jo xxx


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Calling Jimenato!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Sorry about the delay. 

dinnow makes two points and one of them has some validity - you can run a bar in Spain with no - or at least very little Spanish. I know of a fair few bars where the owner speaks very little Spanish - they are in tourist seaside areas. There is a whole sub-economy along the costas - both legal and non-legal where the lingua franca is English. The suppliers either speak English or are English and there are English speaking gestores and asesores. As for customers, many foreigners do speak English and anyway learning bar Spanish doesn't take long.

The other point he makes about Spanish people not going to a British run bar is not so valid.

There are bars, restaurants and even hotels in inland non-tourist villages run by Brits. They are very variable - some being very similar to the typical stainless steel counter - tapa cold cabinet Spanish rural bar and some trying to be anything but Spanish (mine for instance). 

The first type are to all intents and purposes Spanish bars run by Spanish speaking foreigners and_ their clientèle are almost entirely Spanish. _

My bar is a bit different, in an inland non-tourist village but with many expat residents. We attract Spanish customers by being different - there's just no point in us competing with the Spanish bars - there are loads of them. We don't do tapas and we don't do seafood and we don't do menu del dia - not because there's anything wrong with any of those but because everywhere else does it. The Spanish we attract are often young professionals - teachers and so on who want to eat something different - moussaka, chilli, curry, sheek kebab - often a table of four will have one of each and four forks.

So, contrary to what dinnow said, Spanish will go to some British run bars and if you own one of those you need to speak Spanish.


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## dinnow (Feb 14, 2011)

Fair enough. But my experience is of English bars in heavily expat areas on the coast where it was not necessary for the Brit bars to speak Spanish. There were a few tame Spanish who fancied improving their English or who fancied the English women but they were a very small minority and they spoke English. The bar owner spoke a few words of Spanish that he'd picked up along the way for dealing with suppliers but mostly the suppliers spoke enough English to be understood. And as I said, for funccionarios they'd use a bilingual gestor.
So I maintain my view that it is perfectly reasonable to suggest that if Brits are planning to come to Spain to run a bar with no previous relevant experience and currently no Spanish, they would be taking a heck of a risk to go native. Far better to take on the challenge of a career change plus a culture change without making it a triple whammy of language change too.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

dinnow said:


> Fair enough. But my experience is of English bars in heavily expat areas on the coast where it was not necessary for the Brit bars to speak Spanish. There were a few tame Spanish who fancied improving their English or who fancied the English women but they were a very small minority and they spoke English. The bar owner spoke a few words of Spanish that he'd picked up along the way for dealing with suppliers but mostly the suppliers spoke enough English to be understood. And as I said, for funccionarios they'd use a bilingual gestor.
> So I maintain my view that it is perfectly reasonable to suggest that if Brits are planning to come to Spain to run a bar with no previous relevant experience and currently no Spanish, they would be taking a heck of a risk to go native. Far better to take on the challenge of a career change plus a culture change without making it a triple whammy of language change too.


I just wonder how much longer these "heavily expat areas" will remain exclusively British though. From the sound of it, the Brits are leaving in droves and people moving from the UK to Spain these days want somewhere a bit different (judging by the number of queries we get about "real Spain"). Wouldn´t it be better to advise people to diversify?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> I just wonder how much longer these "heavily expat areas" will remain exclusively British though. From the sound of it, the Brits are leaving in droves and people moving from the UK to Spain these days want somewhere a bit different (judging by the number of queries we get about "real Spain"). Wouldn´t it be better to advise people to diversify?



I live on the outskirts of a "heavily expat area" Benalmadena - in particular the main "expat area" of Arroyo de la Miele. The British bars in the area have, in the main been here for many years (10 years plus) and are part of the area and are accepted - they speak a bit of Spanish and the Spanish speak a bit of English. there are also many other nationality bars around too. There are many, many other nationalities who live here. In my street alone, I have one British neighbour, one Chilean married to a Brit, two French families (my house is owned by a french family), two Dutch families, an Argentinian family, A Russian family are reforming the big house on the corner of my street........... The word "expat" doesnt mean Brits. Of course, my area is a tourist area and has an influx of British tourists who are not the same thing as ex pats and its the British Tourists historically that came to Spain in their droves during the 70s who helped Spains prosperity

I guess what I'm saying is that maybe people such as Dinnow, when he comes to Spain tends to only notice British, or goes to British areas, but its diluted and simply in the mix nowadays??? 

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> I live on the outskirts of a "heavily expat area" Benalmadena - in particular the main "expat area" of Arroyo de la Miele. The British bars in the area have, in the main been here for many years (10 years plus) and are part of the area and are accepted - they speak a bit of Spanish and the Spanish speak a bit of English. there are also many other nationality bars around too. There are many, many other nationalities who live here. In my street alone, I have one British neighbour, one Chilean married to a Brit, two French families (my house is owned by a french family), two Dutch families, an Argentinian family, A Russian family are reforming the big house on the corner of my street........... The word "expat" doesnt mean Brits. Of course, my area is a tourist area and has an influx of British tourists who are not the same thing as ex pats and its the British Tourists historically that came to Spain in their droves during the 70s who helped Spains prosperity
> 
> I guess what I'm saying is that maybe people such as Dinnow, when he comes to Spain tends to only notice British, or goes to British areas, but its diluted and simply in the mix nowadays???
> 
> Jo xxx


I was going to say something similar - Jávea has in recent years had quite a lot of brits - & they might still be the biggest 'expat group' (not sure, but I think that might be the south americans now) but they are by no means the only expats here

there are tons of dutch, german, french, italian & expats from many many countries here - although a brit visiting here would almost certainly notice the englishvoices around them

yes, it's 'heavily expat', but by no means 'heavily brit'

that said, the expats of all nationalities have been leaving 'in droves' & the town is beginning to feel a bit more like I remember it from 11 years ago when we first visited

sadly though, that also means that many businesses of all nationalities are suffering


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

dinnow said:


> Fair enough. But my experience is of English bars in heavily expat areas on the coast where it was not necessary for the Brit bars to speak Spanish. There were a few tame Spanish who fancied improving their English or who fancied the English women but they were a very small minority and they spoke English. The bar owner spoke a few words of Spanish that he'd picked up along the way for dealing with suppliers but mostly the suppliers spoke enough English to be understood. And as I said, for funccionarios they'd use a bilingual gestor.
> So I maintain my view that it is perfectly reasonable to suggest that if Brits are planning to come to Spain to run a bar with no previous relevant experience and currently no Spanish, they would be taking a heck of a risk to go native. Far better to take on the challenge of a career change plus a culture change without making it a triple whammy of language change too.


Whenever I think of Brits with no previous business experience opening a bar in Spain I think of the hapless couple who were featured in that ITV programme 'Paradise Lost'.
They had worked as a supermarket shelf stacker and truck driver and had mortgaged their bought council house to the hilt.....to buy a bar in Benidorm which had been on the market for over three years - it never occurred to them to wonder why.
Knowing no Spanish and unable to do the simplest things connected with running any business let alone a bar in a foreign country they soon ran up against the intricacies of getting the relevant licences, arranging suppliers etc.
They lasted three months.
So if you think that it's reasonable to run a bar in Spain with no Spanish and no previous business experience (which I'm guessing you haven't) then put your theory to the test. There are thousands of bars for lease/sale (why, I wonder?).
I personally would never encourage anyone to do anything I would never consider doing myself. 
The plain facts are that many - not all - wannabe immigrant business owners lack the skills, experience, capital and education to make a success in the UK let alone in Spain.
The desire to emigrate and make a new start is all too often a sign of despair, not hope, and it's cruel and silly to give false encouragement, especially when you do not live permanently in Spain and have no way of sensing the current situation.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I dont understand why anyone in their right mind would want to run a bar - in Spain or anywhere else. However, assuming their are people out there who enjoy that kind of work and responsibility, why is it that some of them feel they have to move to Spain to do it??? No experience, no training and no idea of the rules, regulations, corruption, economic climate, risks, or the language. 

I'd go as far as to say that if someone thinks running a bar in Spain is a nice idea and that they just want to make enough money to live on (as many do). They really should try and lease/buy one in their home towns in the UK first. That'll be much easier, financially safer and give them valuable experience in familiar surroundings. Once they've done that for a while and understand the industry, then they need to make a few trips out to Spain and see what its like, learn the language and the various and many rules (official and otherwise) and get themselves a business plan, do it properly. 

Gone are the days (if they were ever here??) when you pitch up, buy your stock and open your doors to a mass of punters and watch the money role in

Jo xxx


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## dinnow (Feb 14, 2011)

jojo said:


> I live on the outskirts of a "heavily expat area" Benalmadena - in particular the main "expat area" of Arroyo de la Miele. The British bars in the area have, in the main been here for many years (10 years plus) and are part of the area and are accepted - they speak a bit of Spanish and the Spanish speak a bit of English. there are also many other nationality bars around too. There are many, many other nationalities who live here. In my street alone, I have one British neighbour, one Chilean married to a Brit, two French families (my house is owned by a french family), two Dutch families, an Argentinian family, A Russian family are reforming the big house on the corner of my street........... The word "expat" doesnt mean Brits. Of course, my area is a tourist area and has an influx of British tourists who are not the same thing as ex pats and its the British Tourists historically that came to Spain in their droves during the 70s who helped Spains prosperity
> 
> I guess what I'm saying is that maybe people such as Dinnow, when he comes to Spain tends to only notice British, or goes to British areas, but its diluted and simply in the mix nowadays???
> 
> Jo xxx


I came to Spain in 1999 and bought an old cortijo in the campo outside a village in inland Almeria. We were the first Brit family although there was rumoured to be a German woman married to a local Spaniard. The kids were the first Brits in the village school and, partly because of that, were fluent in five minutes. Took their parents a bit longer but we got there.
Then another Brit moved in and decided this was "real Spain" meets "paradise lost" and decided he'd open an estate agents selling to Brits. And the floodgates opened. Five years later and a Brit community large enough to sustain two Brit bars. And the locals started to learn a bit of English because they wanted the Brit euros. Sound familiar?
I moved out but wife and kids stayed. And I moved to the coast. By then there were no Spanish bits of the coast left as the Brits and other expats had moved in and they had either become pretty Brit or pretty cosmopolitan. But again, enough Brits to support Brit bars.
Come the recession and the return of many an expat from whence they came and, yes, many of the Brit and expat bars become non-viable and close. But those returning are those dependent on generating an income in Spain. Those with occupational pensions or other private income are going nowhere. But that doesn't argue that OP should learn Spanish as part of the preparation for opening a bar. It argues that OP would be mad to consider opening a bar in the present economic climate.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

jojo said:


> I dont understand why anyone in their right mind would want to run a bar - in Spain or anywhere else. However, assuming their are people out there who enjoy that kind of work and responsibility, why is it that some of them feel they have to move to Spain to do it??? No experience, no training and no idea of the rules, regulations, corruption, economic climate, risks, or the language.
> 
> I'd go as far as to say that if someone thinks running a bar in Spain is a nice idea and that they just want to make enough money to live on (as many do). They really should try and lease/buy one in their home towns in the UK first. That'll be much easier, financially safer and give them valuable experience in familiar surroundings. Once they've done that for a while and understand the industry, then they need to make a few trips out to Spain and see what its like, learn the language and the various and many rules (official and otherwise) and get themselves a business plan, do it properly.
> 
> ...


I had never thought about running a bar until a week before putting up 6 months rent and a deposit. No planning, nothing. I guess that makes me a moron.  I guess the fact that I have lived in Spain for ten years and knew the bar and its two previous owners, speak some Spanish and crucially don't have any kids makes it slightly less moronic. Although I enjoy what I am doing here in Spain and it appears to be working out at least for the moment, there's no way I would do it in the UK.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

dinnow said:


> I came to Spain in 1999 and bought an old cortijo in the campo outside a village in inland Almeria. We were the first Brit family although there was rumoured to be a German woman married to a local Spaniard. The kids were the first Brits in the village school and, partly because of that, were fluent in five minutes. Took their parents a bit longer but we got there.
> Then another Brit moved in and decided this was "real Spain" meets "paradise lost" and decided he'd open an estate agents selling to Brits. And the floodgates opened. Five years later and a Brit community large enough to sustain two Brit bars. And the locals started to learn a bit of English because they wanted the Brit euros. Sound familiar?
> I moved out but wife and kids stayed. And I moved to the coast. By then there were no Spanish bits of the coast left as the Brits and other expats had moved in and they had either become pretty Brit or pretty cosmopolitan. But again, enough Brits to support Brit bars.


Thats the trouble with the whole world. When countries want to become modern, with modern infrastructures, lifestyles and freedoms, they change and adapt. Spain, in the 70s became a new holiday destination and that brought with it wealth and change. It would be naive to think that Spain wanted to keep its old fashioned lifestyle and pretty whitewashed villages to itself and just let tourists come and look. The tourists and expats wanted them and had good money to go in there and have them. So that brought the prosperity that Spain wanted to improve itself - whether its what Brit expats want is another matter. I often think that Expats come to Spain cos all they want is the "old Spain" and that "old fashioned lifestyle" and values, they are the ones who want to keep it old fashioned, not the Spanish. I know there are still places like that in Spain, just as there are in the UK - you can still find small, picturesque villages back there, with a village shop, a pub, a church a community. But, just as in the UK (altho slower cos its bigger) those little villages and bastions of the "old way" are dying out, not cos of Brits, but because of progress and what the spanish people want!! As I keep pointing out, Spain is in the EU, its people are european and their values are the same, pretty much as the rest of the western world. Eventually, the only difference between Spain and the UK will be the climate and the space

Jo xxx


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

dinnow said:


> be mad to consider opening a bar in the present economic climate.


There's a lot to be said for starting a business in a recession. Provided you think it through, really screw down rents and other costs, have enough to see you through the bad times, are prepared to work extremely hard for very little initially, and wait for things to get better.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

jimenato said:


> There's a lot to be said for starting a business in a recession. Provided you think it through, really screw down rents and other costs, have enough to see you through the bad times, are prepared to work extremely hard for very little initially, and wait for things to get better.


..... and you know what you're doing and know your market!

Jo xxx


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

jojo said:


> ..... and you know what you're doing and know your market!
> 
> Jo xxx


Yes - an absolute must!!

I researched my market very thoroughly I just didn't realise that that was what I was doing .


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I just wonder how much longer these "heavily expat areas" will remain exclusively British though. From the sound of it, the Brits are leaving in droves and people moving from the UK to Spain these days want somewhere a bit different (judging by the number of queries we get about "real Spain"). Wouldn´t it be better to advise people to diversify?



I'd hazard a guess that here are few if any non-Brit immigrant areas in Spain.
We've encountered isolated pockets of Britdom in the remotest rural areas.
I keep trying to get a definition of this 'real Spain'. Isn't Benidorm the 'real Spain'? Or Alicante? Or Sitges?
Blackpool, Hastings and Bournemouth bear no resemblance to the small town I lived in in the UK but the inhabitants would have been peeved to be told that these towns weren't the 'real Britain'.
And as I have pointed out before, no-one talks about the 'real Belgium' or the 'real Germany' or for that matter the 'real Czech Republic'.
As Jo has pointed out, Spain is becoming another homogenised EU state. Of course there are regional and national differences that make Spain different from, say, Austria, but it's chiefly climate, landscape and language that tell us which EU state we happen to be in.
Consumerism and globalisation have helped spread a common culture which has affected what we buy, the shops we buy in, the clothes we wear, the gadgets we use, the music we listen to....Take a look at the programme guides of Spanish satellite and terrestial channels, consider teenage fashions in clothes and music...
People who bang on about the 'real Spain' are looking for an ideal that is now fast fading, if it still exists at all. They are on a par with the mainly American tourists who used to visit chocolate-box picturesque Lavenham in Suffolk and went away fondly imagining they had seen the 'real England'...oblivious of the fact that practically each and every 'authentic' Tudor building was the product of much twentieth-century artifice and restoration.
As for advising people to 'diversify'....why???? Most people opt for Spain for sun and sea and what they imagine to be 'living the dream'.
It's not up to anyone to influence or denigrate their choices, really, although as I've often said, sun and sea are poor constituents of a dream..but that's my opinion, millions would disagree.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> Yes - an absolute must!!
> 
> I researched my market very thoroughly I just didn't realise that that was what I was doing .


The fact that you did that, you had had experience of living in Spain, you had financial back-up and most importantly you have sound judgment ...all this contributed.
Many if not most wannabes lack all those things.
There seems to be a small but solid Brit underclass developing in Spain.....


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jimenato said:


> I had never thought about running a bar until a week before putting up 6 months rent and a deposit. No planning, nothing. I guess that makes me a moron.  I guess the fact that I have lived in Spain for ten years and knew the bar and its two previous owners, speak some Spanish and crucially don't have any kids makes it slightly less moronic. Although I enjoy what I am doing here in Spain and it appears to be working out at least for the moment, there's no way I would do it in the UK.


being here 10 years, speaking some spanish & knowing the bar completely sets you apart from those who have perhaps never even been to spain, come over for an 'inspection trip' & buy the first bar they see busy with a rent-a-crowd


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## dinnow (Feb 14, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> There seems to be a small but solid Brit *underclass *developing in Spain.....


Do you just mean poor people? Or do you mean common people as in Pulp/David Cameron?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

dinnow said:


> Do you just mean poor people? Or do you mean common people as in Pulp/David Cameron? YouTube - The Common People


Poor people arent the same as underclass !!??

Jo xx


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I'd hazard a guess that here are few if any non-Brit immigrant areas in Spain.
> We've encountered isolated pockets of Britdom in the remotest rural areas.
> I keep trying to get a definition of this 'real Spain'. Isn't Benidorm the 'real Spain'? Or Alicante? Or Sitges?
> Blackpool, Hastings and Bournemouth bear no resemblance to the small town I lived in in the UK but the inhabitants would have been peeved to be told that these towns weren't the 'real Britain'.
> ...


Not arguing with any of that - and it sums up why advising people that they can open a bar in a British expat area because it will be full of Brits and everyone speaks British seems more than a little shortsighted. I can't work out whether you're agreeing with me or contradicting me!


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## dinnow (Feb 14, 2011)

jojo said:


> Poor people arent the same as underclass !!??
> 
> Jo xx


So define "underclass".


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

dinnow said:


> So define "underclass".


A class of people who are under another class, is my interpretation, however, it wasnt my comment

Jo x


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## dinnow (Feb 14, 2011)

jojo said:


> A class of people who are under another class, is my interpretation, however, it wasnt my comment
> 
> Jo x


So poor people are not under rich people? 
My point is that the word is capable of various interpretations and, like you, I would be interested to see clarification from Mary.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I would define the underclass as those who are excluded from what a civilised society expects for its members - living below the poverty line, disenfranchised, often homeless, probably unemployable, without hope of self-improvement.

Haven't spotted any Brits in Spain who fall into that category.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I would define the underclass as those who are excluded from what a civilised society expects for its members - living below the poverty line, disenfranchised, often homeless, probably unemployable, without hope of self-improvement.
> 
> Haven't spotted any Brits in Spain who fall into that category.


Every 'underclass' is defined by its relation to other classes or groups in society so you cannot define the underclass in Spain by comparing to its British equivalent.
The underclass I'm referring to on the Costas I would define as follows:

lacking steady employment, living from day to day, unskilled, poorly educated, wheeling and dealling, ducking and diving, often engaged in low-order criminality such as drug-dealing, tobacco smuggling, possibly on the run from various UK authorities for a variety of reasons, moving from cheap rental to cheap rental, leaving unpaid bills, no roots in any community..

There may be a hard core who would operate in this milieu anywhere in the world - they were present in abundance in Prague - but also include people who came with sincere intentions to make a new life but for various reasons failed and either cannot or dare not return to the UK.
I use the term in a descriptive and not pejorative sense as did Charles Murray, the American sociologist who I believe was the first to coin the term.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Not arguing with any of that - and it sums up why advising people that they can open a bar in a British expat area because it will be full of Brits and everyone speaks British seems more than a little shortsighted. I can't work out whether you're agreeing with me or contradicting me!


Agreeing with you - I've just had a good lunch - apart from the last paragraph!


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> lacking steady employment, living from day to day, unskilled, poorly educated, wheeling and dealling, ducking and diving, often engaged in low-order criminality such as drug-dealing, tobacco smuggling, possibly on the run from various UK authorities for a variety of reasons, moving from cheap rental to cheap rental, leaving unpaid bills, no roots in any community..


Gosh, that almost sounds like me


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

ShinyAndy said:


> Gosh, that almost sounds like me



I told you what I think of you in a previous post, Andy!


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2011)

If only I could find cheap rental places!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Every 'underclass' is defined by its relation to other classes or groups in society so you cannot define the underclass in Spain by comparing to its British equivalent.
> The underclass I'm referring to on the Costas I would define as follows:
> 
> lacking steady employment, living from day to day, unskilled, poorly educated, wheeling and dealling, ducking and diving, often engaged in low-order criminality such as drug-dealing, tobacco smuggling, possibly on the run from various UK authorities for a variety of reasons, moving from cheap rental to cheap rental, leaving unpaid bills, no roots in any community..
> .


But surely by that definition there has always been a British underclass on the Costa del Sol, dating back to when there was no extradition treaty between Britain and Spain? It's nothing new.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> But surely by that definition there has always been a British underclass on the Costa del Sol, dating back to when there was no extradition treaty between Britain and Spain? It's nothing new.


Yes, I suppose that's true and it's why the CDS has a slightly' non-U' image.
Although of course some of the real criminals may have been (self) marginalised but were by no means short of cash
We had two examples of the kind of people I'm describing up at the kennels a month or so ago....driving an ancient RHD UK plated van , badly painted a vile green, scruffy, unshaven, shifty...trying to pretend a scraggy, underfed flea-infested dog on a string lead had been 'found' in the port....Both unwilling to leave a name, address, contact number.
Attempting to strike up a conversation I asked what they did and was told 'A bit of this, a bit of that...'
When asked for a contribution to the cost of keeping the dog one of them produced a few cent coins from his pocket........


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, I suppose that's true and it's why the CDS has a slightly' non-U' image.
> Although of course some of the real criminals may have been (self) marginalised but were by no means short of cash
> We had two examples of the kind of people I'm describing up at the kennels a month or so ago....driving an ancient RHD UK plated van , badly painted a vile green, scruffy, unshaven, shifty...trying to pretend a scraggy, underfed flea-infested dog on a string lead had been 'found' in the port....Both unwilling to leave a name, address, contact number.
> Attempting to strike up a conversation I asked what they did and was told 'A bit of this, a bit of that...'
> When asked for a contribution to the cost of keeping the dog one of them produced a few cent coins from his pocket........


Sounds like your average New Age crusties to me, they may offend some people's aesthetic senses but they are usually harmless. At least they didn't chuck the dog out of the window on the motorway or leave it in a skip like some of the more well-heeled types do.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Sounds like your average New Age crusties to me, they may offend some people's aesthetic senses but they are usually harmless. At least they didn't chuck the dog out of the window on the motorway or leave it in a skip like some of the more well-heeled types do.


No, I know crusties and these were not they!
We have a good German crusty friend, dreadlocks, lives in a shack in the campo, works as a carpenter....
Those two were defo....underclass.
I know them when I see them too....we were in the motor trade, remember


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> No, I know crusties and these were not they!
> We have a good German crusty friend, dreadlocks, lives in a shack in the campo, works as a carpenter....
> Those two were defo....underclass.
> I know them when I see them too....we were in the motor trade, remember


But they did bring the dog to the right place so not all bad. After all it cost them time, petrol and a few centimos. 

ps. I thought a crustie was a well made cornish pastie


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

I love Cornish pasties. I have an excellent and foolproof recipe for them which you can make here in Spain if anyone is interested. BUT this is way off topic... Maybe there should be a recipes thread (like on another forum...)


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> But they did bring the dog to the right place so not all bad. After all it cost them time, petrol and a few centimos.
> 
> ps. I thought a crustie was a well made cornish pastie


But it was their dog!!!!!
We take abandoned dogs, not dogs whose owners tire of them.
Although I guess if we'd refused they would have dumped it on the track.....
We've started photographing the cars and drivers who do that then make a denuncia.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Good to see the thread has not drifted lol.... my giddy aunt, there are some smug ******s on this forum.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Should we close it now??? Altho its nice to get people chatting and getting to know everyone, maybe thats done now!?!?

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> Should we close it now??? Altho its nice to get people chatting and getting to know everyone, maybe thats done now!?!?
> 
> Jo xxx


gets my vote


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

It was fun and nice to get everyones views etc, but all good things come to an end and was going on a bit :clap2::clap2::clap2:

Jo xxxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> It was fun and nice to get everyones views etc, but all good things come to an end and was going on a bit :clap2::clap2::clap2:
> 
> Jo xxxx


and round & round & round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round& round..................................


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