# Roundabouts



## flexwingdriver (Mar 31, 2014)

I was heading of of Torrevieja yesterday. There are roundabouts a good way along the road. There are 2 lanes going in and out of the roundabout. I was in the outer lane going around as to go left off the roundabout. Amazingly this nutjob woman sliced right in front of me from the inside lane. How I didn't hit her is still something of a miracle to me. 

Apart from that I've noticed that the Spanish seem to have a real problem with roundabouts in general. How the heck are they "taught"? To drive or do licences come in cornflakes boxes? 

Had the loony rammed me who would have been been judged responsible? 

Thanks


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

flexwingdriver said:


> I was heading of of Torrevieja yesterday. There are roundabouts a good way along the road. There are 2 lanes going in and out of the roundabout. I was in the outer lane going around as to go left off the roundabout. Amazingly this nutjob woman sliced right in front of me from the inside lane. How I didn't hit her is still something of a miracle to me.
> 
> Apart from that I've noticed that the Spanish seem to have a real problem with roundabouts in general. How the heck are they "taught"? To drive or do licences come in cornflakes boxes?
> 
> ...


As daft as it sounds, they are taught to use the outside lane all the way round roundabouts even if they want to go left. So YOU would be the one held to be responsible.


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

I've asked my daughter, who has passed her theory test here and is now taking practical lessons, why on earth some roundabouts have two lanes when one is supposed to stay in the outside lane at all times. It had never occurred to her. She had no answer!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

When I first arrived in Spain, I spent many an hour driving round and round a roundabout, trying to find the courage to go for the exit - Theres one in particular, by Ikea, Malaga - its quite terrifying!!! But as Baldi says, the Spanish tend to stay in the outside lane regardless - Altho on some of the quieter roundabouts, the guardia set up road blocks on the outside lane!

Jo xxx


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## flexwingdriver (Mar 31, 2014)

I was in the outside lane. She came from the inside and cut in front of me!!!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> As daft as it sounds, they are taught to use the outside lane all the way round roundabouts even if they want to go left. So YOU would be the one held to be responsible.


Sorry misread original post - the use of inside, outside, nearside, offside can get very confusing.


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## el romeral (May 8, 2012)

The Spanish have not got a clue when it comes to roundabouts. Unfortunately this is how they teach them in the "driving test". In addition, they also neglect to teach them how to do hill starts, reverse or do an emergency stop.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

flexwingdriver said:


> I was heading of of Torrevieja yesterday. There are roundabouts a good way along the road. There are 2 lanes going in and out of the roundabout. I was in the outer lane going around as to go left off the roundabout. Amazingly this nutjob woman sliced right in front of me from the inside lane. How I didn't hit her is still something of a miracle to me.
> 
> Apart from that I've noticed that the Spanish seem to have a real problem with roundabouts in general. How the heck are they "taught"? To drive or do licences come in cornflakes boxes?
> 
> ...


The other driver would have been responsible
*“No deberá abandonarse la glorieta desde los carriles interiores de la misma, salvo que la señalización mediante flechas de selección de carril, estando estos delimitados, así lo permitiese.*

From
¿Cómo se debe circular por una rotonda? ¿Quién tiene prioridad? | Ya está el listo que todo lo sabe
The rules are the same as in other countries, although it's true that on the roundabouts that I use which are for the most part big with no traffic, or big and jam packed with traffic (in the rush hour) most people use the outside lane. 
I don't find it a problem now. I just always make sure I signal precisely and really keep a look out for what other drivers are doing.
Oh, I did learn to drive here as well, so maybe that helps 
PS The teory test is very difficult and many people fail it before going on to the practical


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Ah good - roundabouts again!

I'm finding this very confusing. 

flexwingdriver - what do you mean here by the outside lane - the tight lane or the wide lane? 

If you were in the wide lane turning left that is what most Spanish do and deem to be the correct way - it is not what Brits do. 

Brits take the tight lane until they have passed the penultimate exit and then cross to the wide lane to exit - this is where they often encounter a Spaniard going all the way around the wide lane.

Can you clarify?


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

This is the picture from Pesky's post and it confuses even more.

The rules as shown are the same in many countries but it is not what happens here in reality. Many people use the wide lane to turn left - i.e. the car on the blue route turns left.

If you do what the purple car does, you are in grave danger or being hit by a car in the wide lane.

The only safe way to proceed is to assume that no-one (including you) has the slightest idea what they are doing and be very careful.


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

The Spanish Highway Code is around three times the size of the British one. One can tell from the quality of driving here, ¿no?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Why are Spanish cars not fitted with indicators?


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

The picture doesn't coincide with what the text from Pesky's post says. The text says that you must exit from the outside/wide lane and that you aren't allowed to cross over the outside lane from the inside/tight lane in order to exit. It also says that you must _enter _the roundabout using the outside lane if that lane is open.

My son got his license here 18 months ago and my daughter is in the middle of getting hers. They were both taught to always use the outside lane in a roundabout. Their driving teachers explained that the inside lane is for passing only, which is basically impossible in a roundabout, so it shouldn't be used. 

Back to the original post: you would _not_ have been at fault if you had had an accident. The other car shouldn't have done what it did. 

I totally agree, though, that drivers here are clueless about how to deal with roundabouts. Best advice - extreme precaution!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

kalohi said:


> The picture doesn't coincide with what the text from Pesky's post says. The text says that you must exit from the outside/wide lane and that you aren't allowed to cross over the outside lane from the inside/tight lane in order to exit. It also says that you must _enter _the roundabout using the outside lane if that lane is open.*
> Do you mean that the purple/ pink car should leave the inside lane before it is indicated on the picture? That's the only thing that I can see where text and picture might not coincide. *
> I totally agree, though, that drivers here are clueless about how to deal with roundabouts. Best advice - extreme precaution!*
> Yes, it's true that many drivers aren't clear about how to handle roundabouts. Even if you are taught "correctly" you have to join the crowd in the outside lane or face huge problems and the wrath of other drivers horns! However, as I said, I don't find it very problematic as long as I keep my eyes peeled and signal continually, but maybe that's because the roundabouts I encounter are usually void of traffic or chock a block, crawling around the roundabout kind of traffic. On a busy roundabout with moving traffic it might by a different matter and I could have nightmares about Plaza Castilla multi lane, big city roundabout, although when I learnt I was going Gran Via, San Bernardo, Glorieta Ruiz Giménez. I even went around Cibeles and Plaza de España regularly*


PS I must confess, when I go to the UK I can't work out how the roundabouts work. You're on the inside lane and all of a sudden you cross a couple of lanes to exit?! In WSM when you take the motorway to go to Bristol, you know that one Jimenato?? I close my eyes when my sister goes round there...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jimenato said:


> Ah good - roundabouts again!
> 
> I'm finding this very confusing.
> 
> ...


The tight lane or the wide lane???
Who's got to clarify!?
He was in the outside lane, if you are driving, the lane most to the right. The lane NOT nearest to the roundabout itself.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> The tight lane or the wide lane???
> Who's got to clarify!?
> He was in the outside lane, if you are driving, the lane most to the right. The lane NOT nearest to the roundabout itself.


I don't know where that diagram is from but it is simply wrong in Spain - or at least it is as far as a friend of mine from Trafico says!

When talking about roundabouts I think we should adopt *left lane* and *right lane* terminology.

If you straightened out the lanes on a roundabout they would resemble a dual carriageway. The rules are the same for both. The left-hand lane is ONLY to be used for overtaking - one should generally stay in the right-hand lane. The reason for two lanes on or near to a roundabout is to help the flow of traffic. The left-hand lane must be used with caution as priority is ALWAYS with the vehicle in the right-hand lane.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

OMG I'm so glad I can't drive.........


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> I don't know where that diagram is from but it is simply wrong in Spain - or at least it is as far as a friend of mine from Trafico says!
> 
> When talking about roundabouts I think we should adopt *left lane* and *right lane* terminology.
> 
> If you straightened out the lanes on a roundabout they would resemble a dual carriageway. The rules are the same for both. The left-hand lane is ONLY to be used for overtaking - one should generally stay in the right-hand lane. The reason for two lanes on or near to a roundabout is to help the flow of traffic. The left-hand lane must be used with caution as priority is ALWAYS with the vehicle in the right-hand lane.


Agree with left lane right lane!

I must admit, that is what I have always heard (although I don't remember being actually taught that; I don't remember what I was taught!), and that is what people do here. The diagram and info supposedly comes from the DGT.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter as we have to use the roads with other drivers and to a certain extent you have to adapt to what is done by the majority. Said in a different way, if you choose to use the left lane, it is a risk.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> The tight lane or the wide lane???
> Who's got to clarify!?
> He was in the outside lane, if you are driving, the lane most to the right. The lane NOT nearest to the roundabout itself.


Not at all. In most countries the outside lane is the one nearest the centre of the road. 

This is where the confusion arises.

The problem with using the terms left and right to designate lanes is that they change with whether driving is on the left or right.

Also, in the USA apparently the terms inside and outside lane are exactly different - the inside lane is the passing or fast lane.

If you really want to be confused read this wiki entry or this dictionary entry

I prefer wide and tight as it removes all the confusion.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

jimenato said:


> I prefer wide and tight as it removes all the confusion.


but only when you are on the *actual* roundabout, at any other time it is completely meaningless. Only "left and right" are non-confusing and preferably in the form 'left-hand' and 'right-hand' (TomTom often says "take the right lane" which can mean 'correct lane' when it means 'right-hand lane').


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> but only when you are on the *actual* roundabout, at any other time it is completely meaningless. Only "left and right" are non-confusing and preferably in the form 'left-hand' and 'right-hand' (TomTom often says "take the right lane" which can mean 'correct lane' when it means 'right-hand lane').


OK, I accept that tight and wide only apply on roundabouts but I still say that left and right change with country and can therefore cause confusion in international debates such as this.

How about nearside and offside? That works on both roads and roundabouts. Does it work equally well in left and right driving countries?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jimenato said:


> I prefer wide and tight as it removes all the confusion.


WoW, what a Sunday morning!
Wide and tight removes all confusion for you as you know what they mean! I have never heard these terms before, although I think I know which is which. Then again, maybe I don't!
On the other hand it had never occured to me that outside lane could mean anything other than the outside lane that I know.
So now I know
Always define exactly what lane you mean 
Always define if you're talking about left hand or right hand driving, and also right hand or left hand drive car
It's not recommendable to enter these conversations whilst relaxing on a Sunday morning
The wearing of flip flops is optional
and
dare I say it
Roundabout driving is not really that interesting anyway...


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## Madliz (Feb 4, 2011)

> The wearing of flip flops is optional


Flip flops are not optional when driving, however. They are not allowed, according to the Spanish Highway Code!


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## flexwingdriver (Mar 31, 2014)

Madliz said:


> I've asked my daughter, who has passed her theory test here and is now taking practical lessons, why on earth some roundabouts have two lanes when one is supposed to stay in the outside lane at all times. It had never occurred to her. She had no answer!


Help!


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## flexwingdriver (Mar 31, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> Sorry misread original post - the use of inside, outside, nearside, offside can get very confusing.


Yeah, upside down, inside out, roundabout. Never easy


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Madliz said:


> Flip flops are not optional when driving, however. They are not allowed, according to the Spanish Highway Code!


I meant whilst reading this on the computer.
Of course they are not a good idea when driving, are not allowed according to the Spanish Highway code and would hope in all highway codes!


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## flexwingdriver (Mar 31, 2014)

jimenato said:


> Ah good - roundabouts again!
> 
> I'm finding this very confusing.
> 
> ...


Well the inside lane is on your left when driving in the outside lane and the outside lane is on your right when on the inside. Did we get there? Oh, most cars have 4 wheel. If has 2 you'll find it's probably a motorcycle.


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## flexwingdriver (Mar 31, 2014)

Madliz said:


> The Spanish Highway Code is around three times the size of the British one. One can tell from the quality of driving here, ¿no?


ROFL. Nice one!


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

Yeah, like 'the English' roundabouts are better and 'the English' drive better!? lol! 

I've been driving in Spain for 30 years now and always used the outside lane, no matter where I go off the roundabout. If someone cuts in front of me, then that's their problem , I guess, and by law, they are responsible.

I find it much easier driving in Spain than in the UK, I don't know why, my partner says the same. 

Although I am not sure why such fascination with roundabouts you all seem to have!


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Imagine You are in Spain & travelling along a 2 lane dual carriageway. You are in the inside , right-hand,nearest to the kerb lane. The lane to the left is the outside or overtaking lane.
You now enter a roundabout with 2 lanes. The right hand lane on the roundabout is now the outside lane & the left hand lane , nearest the centre of roundabout, is the inside lane. 

common sense dictates that the right hand lane on the roundabout is only for turning right at the 1st exit OR going straight on at the second , straight-ahead exit.
If you are turning left then the sensible place & spanish place is to be in the left hand roundabout , nearest the centre ,lane & Immediately after the second , straight-on exit, you indicate right & move over into inside lane & exit roundabout. It should be one seamless motion , certainly not a series of stop/start manouvers.
The Spanish teaching is utter nonsense as when you get to roundabouts with 3 or more lanes , & we've a few up here , where exits have 2,3 +lanes it becomes nonsensical to teach that you should all be in the lane to the right.


In the UK it is quite simple. There is only one legal thing that you can ride in the inside lane , that's the one to the left , all the way around a roundabout & that is a horse. Though you can expect articulated lorries to be using it for room on smaller roundabouts.


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## flexwingdriver (Mar 31, 2014)

jimenato said:


> Not at all. In most countries the outside lane is the one nearest the centre of the road.
> 
> This is where the confusion arises.
> 
> ...


I've driven a lot in the US. The reason for the difference could be that you're allowed to over take on the inside. Wide and tight.!! Sorry, you're on your own with that one.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lolito said:


> Yeah, like 'the English' roundabouts are better and 'the English' drive better!? lol!
> 
> I've been driving in Spain for 30 years now and always used the outside lane, no matter where I go off the roundabout. If someone cuts in front of me, then that's their problem , I guess, and by law, they are responsible.
> 
> ...


Yes, I've been driving here for 24 yrs and whilst I have heard some Spanish people say that Spaniards are not the best drivers I have never heard anyone express confusion or incomprehension over roundabouts.
Personally, I don't think Spanish drivers handle roundabouts well, but I haven't seen accidents on roundabouts - frayed nerves yes, but that all par for the course.

And, adding fuel to the fire, although stats in Spain are good, it does seem that accident wise Spain comes off worse than the GB
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

flexwingdriver said:


> I've driven a lot in the US. The reason for the difference could be that you're allowed to over take on the inside. Wide and tight.!! Sorry, you're on your own with that one.


Yes - I've given up wide and tight. Nearside and offside are now preferred.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

But in the USA, there seems to be a shortage of roundabouts by comparison with European countries. They seem to like traffic lights and two/three/four-way stops which are even more confusing and operate a bit like queueing in Spain in reverse not so much "¿quién es el último?" more a case (in the US) of ¿quién es el primero?


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Lolito said:


> Yeah, like 'the English' roundabouts are better and 'the English' drive better!? lol!
> 
> I've been driving in Spain for 30 years now and always used the outside lane, no matter where I go off the roundabout. If someone cuts in front of me, then that's their problem , I guess, and by law, they are responsible.
> 
> ...


The fascination with roundabouts is simply because in Spain the rules seem to be different from everywhere else. I say 'seem to be' because it's very difficult to pin down what the rules actually are.

It's confusing and can be dangerous.

For instance which is right - your method of going around a roundabout or Pesky's diagram?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

jimenato said:


> For instance which is right - your method of going around a roundabout or Pesky's diagram?


or worse still, the average Spaniard's?


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> but only when you are on the *actual* roundabout, at any other time it is completely meaningless. Only "left and right" are non-confusing and preferably in the form 'left-hand' and 'right-hand' (TomTom often says "take the right lane" which can mean 'correct lane' when it means 'right-hand lane').


TomTom ?
Get youeself a good mate much better.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

jimenato said:


> The fascination with roundabouts is simply because in Spain the rules seem to be different from everywhere else. I say 'seem to be' because it's very difficult to pin down what the rules actually are.
> 
> It's confusing and can be dangerous.
> 
> For instance which is right - your method of going around a roundabout or Pesky's diagram?


I disagree (see post #16) - this is what is taught, this is the law and this is what trafico follow for fining drivers etc..

Whilst we might all agree that these rules are stupid, if this is the law, then this is what we MUST follow.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

snikpoh said:


> I disagree (see post #16) - this is what is taught, this is the law and this is what trafico follow for fining drivers etc..
> 
> Whilst we might all agree that these rules are stupid, if this is the law, then this is what we MUST follow.


post 16 was the easiest way of explaining it.
The confusion lies with inside, outside lanes etc. to imagine the lanes straightened out is much clearer. 
No wonder it is all so confusing, when, a few years ago, a CG man wrote the opposite(inside, outside etc) in the EWN, with lots of protesting letters afterwards;his column never appeared again.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> But in the USA, there seems to be a shortage of roundabouts by comparison with European countries. They seem to like traffic lights and two/three/four-way stops which are even more confusing and operate a bit like queueing in Spain in reverse not so much "¿quién es el último?" more a case (in the US) of ¿quién es el primero?


I drove a lot in Canada -Quebec and Ontario - when we had property there and I came to prefer two and four-way stops to roundabouts. 99.9% of drivers use them sensibly and they are much less confusing.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> And, adding fuel to the fire, although stats in Spain are good, it does seem that accident wise Spain comes off worse than the GB
> List of countries by traffic-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



It does actually. What makes it worse is that that is not the correct figure for Spain which, off the top of my head ,is some 800+ higher. This is due to the fact that Spanish road traffic fatalities, accidents, Etc; only include the peasants & never include any accident that involves a 'professional 'driver.
So any time you see an accident with a van, lorry, bus, taxi, fire engine, police , ambulance, coach ,etc; involved, That isn't an accident .I've no idea what it is but it doesn't count as an 'accident'. 
There's another list for that lot. Just another way of artificially making the figures look better!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> It does actually. What makes it worse is that that is not the correct figure for Spain which, off the top of my head ,is some 800+ higher. This is due to the fact that Spanish road traffic fatalities, accidents, Etc; only include the peasants & never include any accident that involves a 'professional 'driver.
> So any time you see an accident with a van, lorry, bus, taxi, fire engine, police , ambulance, coach ,etc; involved, That isn't an accident .I've no idea what it is but it doesn't count as an 'accident'.
> There's another list for that lot. Just another way of artificially making the figures look better!


¿¿¿???
Weird, isn't it?

And not absolutely correct according to the DGT site..
On the following page 
http://www.dgt.es/es/prensa/notas-de-prensa/2014/20140103-balance-2013-seguridad-vial-2013.shtml
in the paragraph with the title of _Características de la siniestralidad 2013,_ deaths of people in vans _*are*_ listed
Por tipo de accidente: La salida de vía sigue siendo el tipo de accidente que más fallecidos genera tanto en vías de gran capacidad (87 fallecidos, el 38%) como en carreteras convencionales (333 fallecidos). En autopistas y autovías hay que destacar los atropellos a peatón (41) como el segundo tipo de accidente que más fallecidos computa.
Por tipo de usuario: Los fallecidos por tipo de usuario presentan diferente comportamiento:
- Los fallecidos en turismo (590) descienden un 18% respecto al año anterior.
- Los usuarios de furgoneta también descendieron en 26 personas el número de fallecidos, situándose en un total de 49 muertos 
- Los usuarios de bicicleta fallecidos también se reducen en 11 personas, pasando de 47 en 2012 a 36 en 2013. 
- Los fallecidos en ciclomotor también descienden en 5 personas. 
- Por el contrario, los motoristas fallecidos han aumentado de 186 a 188. 
- Los peatones fallecidos también aumentan de 132 a 138. 
- Los ocupantes de autobús aumentan de 1 en 2012 a 10 en 2013, por el accidente de Ávila en el que murieron 9 personas.


Nothing about lorries etc, although there are older documents which talk about lorries and vehicles used to transport goods.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

The motoring organisation , Dvuelta, commented on it some years back.

DGT hiding the real truth of accident numbers | Spanish News


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