# Health insurance for second home owners?



## Easyriders (Apr 4, 2013)

Hope someone can help.

We have a house in Portugal, but we are not resident, we are UK resident. We spend about 5 months a year in Portugal, in our house there, and we travel back and to from UK to Portugal and back via France and Spain in our motorhome.

Travel insurance gets very expensive when it is for more than 90 days per trip, but it also seems to cover things we don't need, such as baggage and cancellation. We have motorhome insurance that covers theft and breakdown etc while travelling, and house and contents insurance for our house in Portugal.

We just need medical insurance, including repatriation costs,

With the number of second home owners in europe, as well as people who travel for months in their motorhome, you would think there would be insurance simply for medical cover and repatriation, such as we need, but we can't find any.

Anyone out there found anything like this please?


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Your UK EHIC covers you for health costs in France, Spain and Portugal but not repatriation, look at a site like moneysavingexpert for a yearly travel policy that would give you repatriation but takes into account EHIC


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## siobhanwf (Mar 20, 2009)

canoeman said:


> Your UK EHIC covers you for health costs in France, Spain and Portugal but not repatriation, look at a site like moneysavingexpert for a yearly travel policy that would give you repatriation but takes into account EHIC




With a UK address this should be no problem. Have a look at Travel Insurance and Holiday Insurance | InsureandGo UK


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## EuroTrash (Sep 3, 2013)

When I motorhomed a lot I used to have an annual travel insurance policy with Insure&Go. Peanuts, as I recall. Probably you get what you pay for, but basically I was paying for peace of mind or the illusion thereof, and for the 5 or 6 years I had it I never had to make a claim so if it an illusion, it was never shattered 
https://www.insureandgo.com/travel-insurance/annual-travel-insurance

EDIT - just realised that's the same link siobhanwf posted - great minds !


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## Easyriders (Apr 4, 2013)

siobhanwf and Eurotrash, the Insure and Go annual policy is just like the one we get free from our bank, but it is not suitable for our needs. Here is a quote form their Policy Wording to show why:

Annual multi-trip policies
This gives you cover to travel as many times as you like during any one period of insurance, as long as no single trip lasts longer than 31 days. We also provide cover for up to 10 days for winter sports during the term of your policy.

We want insurance for health and repatriation only for a period of 5 months.

I think a lot of people think annual travel insurance covers them for a full year, but it doesn't - only cover for one month per trip, though you can take multiple trips. Ok for many, but no use for us.

Thanks for trying anyway. Linda


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

You'll find most policies reflect to a degree various laws on Residence in place in every country, so if you want extended cover for periods longer than you should legally be visiting a country then your looking at tailored made policies and cost thereof, limited your stays and you'll get cheap cover


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## Easyriders (Apr 4, 2013)

canoeman said:


> You'll find most policies reflect to a degree various laws on Residence in place in every country, so if you want extended cover for periods longer than you should legally be visiting a country then your looking at tailored made policies and cost thereof, limited your stays and you'll get cheap cover


We don't want cover for longer than we should legally be visiting a country. We are UK residents, and we live there for 7 months of the year. We take one trip of five months to Portugal, actually about four and a half months in Portugal, and two fortnight trips, one each way via France and Spain, in our campervan.

While we have a house in Portugal, we are not resident there. We are registered for tax as non-resident. We are certainly not breaking any laws. We just need health insurance to back up our EHIC cover.


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## EuroTrash (Sep 3, 2013)

Insure&Go's gold and black policies give you 90 days if you're under 65.

Dunno about Portugal, but France limits 'holiday' to three months and I think that's an EC ruling so imagine it's the same. Beyond that as canoeman indicated you're into long stay territory, the country you are in can require you to prove that you have full medical cover in place, and companies like Insure&Go don't want to get involved in that, for £50 or so a year.

I agree it's another instance of the rules being out of step with people's lifestyles these days, but I guess that's the explanation of what you're up against. Insurance companies are covering their backs. You can adapt your lifestyle to suit the rules, or take your chances with no insurance, or pay what probably seems over the odds.

Rights, conditions and formalities
After 3 months in your new country, you may be required to register with the relevant authority (often the town hall or local police station).
Pensioners have to provide
Valid identity card or passport
Proof of comprehensive health insurance
Proof you can support yourself without needing income support.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

The Proof of Comprehensive Insurance Cover only applies if your Nationality requires a Portuguese Citizen to have Medical Insurance in your country e.g. A Portuguese National in the USA would reguire Private Medical Cover therefore a US National requires Private Medical Insurance in Portugal.

Health Insurance is like car Insurance for a UK Resident it is generally only available for 90 days which reflects EU rulings on Residence and the requirement to Register your Residence if your stay is longer than 3 months, so I'm afraid you are looking for cover for longer than your legally entitled to be here *without* Registering, yes it's a pain but the same Law applies to every EU country


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## EuroTrash (Sep 3, 2013)

canoeman said:


> Health Insurance is like car Insurance for a UK Resident it is generally only available for 90 days which reflects EU rulings on Residence and the requirement to Register your Residence if your stay is longer than 3 months, so I'm afraid you are looking for cover for longer than your legally entitled to be here *without* Registering, yes it's a pain but the same Law applies to every EU country


Then there's the problem is that nobody seems to take into account that you can be travelling for 6 or 7 months, spend nowhere near 3 months in any one country (you visit Spain, Portugal, Italy, France, Belgium and the Netherlands for a month each, it's what motorhomes are for) so you have been in your home country for far longer than any other individual country, you haven't overstayed anywhere, no rules broken - but you still have hassle getting insurance.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Then your starting point is your countries Residence Laws most stipulate that you must live in that country for a 6 month period to retain that countries rights which Easyriders do, it's a personal choice to motorhome how you go about it depends on how legal you want to be and how that affects others


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## EuroTrash (Sep 3, 2013)

canoeman said:


> Then your starting point is your countries Residence Laws most stipulate that you must live in that country for a 6 month period to retain that countries rights which Easyriders do, it's a personal choice to motorhome how you go about it depends on how legal you want to be and how that affects others


AFAIK it is nowhere stated or implied that if a UK resident is out of the UK for more than 6 months they lose their residence rights. The only way they would stop being considered habitually resident in the UK would be if they became resident somewhere else, since everybody has to be classed as resident somewhere. And if they spend longer in the UK than anywhere else, they would still be classed as habitually UK resident.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, Canoeman, just making the point that things aren't black and white and aren't as joined up as they could be.


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## Easyriders (Apr 4, 2013)

I think everyone is getting a bit confused here. As citizens of the EU we have the right to live in any country in the EU, but if we live more than 6 months of the year in any one country, we need to apply for residency.

We don't live for more than 6 months of the year in any one country apart from the UK, so we are residents there.

We are registered for tax in Portugal as non-residents, simply to pay our IMI bill. We have no income in Portugal, all of our income is paid and taxed in the UK.

Anyway, we have now found exactly the medical cover we need from a company called Staysure.

Hope this may help someone else.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

The UK unfortunately doesn't have a clear unequivocal statement but says
"The term “ordinarily resident” is not defined, but its established meaning is that a person is ordinarily resident if they are normally residing in the United Kingdom (apart from temporary or occasional absences), and their residence here has been adopted voluntarily and for settled purposes as part of the regular order of their life for the time being." 

What is defined by temporary or occasional absences varies on where you look or if any sort of benefits are involved, NHS say as an example
_"Going abroad for more than three months1

If you are no longer resident in the UK and are living abroad, the NHS normally won't pay for any 
treatment or services. This includes people who are in receipt of UK state retirement pensions. 
*No longer resident, means that you have left the country for more than three months. Therefore, 
you will have to obtain healthcare cover in the country you are in, or get private medical 
insurance.* 
If you are going abroad for more than 3 months then all you are entitled to at NHS expense is a 
sufficient supply of your regular medication to get to the destination and find an alternative supply of that medication." _


Nor does UK have a Registration system as most EU countries do, further confused by different Gov depts having different definitions or industries like insurance who normally define as 
"a person who has their main home in the United Kingdom, who is registered with a medical practitioner in the United Kingdom and (if 16 years of age or older) has a National Insurance number".

If you take Easyriders posted travel then by being in Portugal longer than 3 months they must Register which automatically makes them Non UK Residents.

I agree nothings black & white but the EU has given us all far more free movement than ever before but also conditions


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Easyriders said:


> I think everyone is getting a bit confused here. As citizens of the EU we have the right to live in any country in the EU, but if we live more than 6 months of the year in any one country, we need to apply for residency.
> 
> We don't live for more than 6 months of the year in any one country apart from the UK, so we are residents there.
> 
> ...


Sorry but you show with this post you are confused, yes you have the right as EU Citizens to live, work, study or retire to any EU country but the timescale for residing in any EU country *without * Registering is a *maximum* of 3 months *not 6 as you state*

You have a Fiscal (Tax) number as a requirement for owning property in Portugal* it does not mean you are registered for Tax*,Tax Residency is a totally different thing


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## Easyriders (Apr 4, 2013)

These are the regulations for the whole of Europe:

Registration

During the first 3 months of your stay in your new country, you cannot be required to register (to obtain a document confirming your right to stay) but can do so if you wish.

After 3 months in your new country, you may be required to register with the relevant authority (often the town hall or local police station).

Please note "may". We enquired at our local town hall in Portugal, and we were told we would not be required to register, as we have sufficient income, all taxed in the UK, and we do not work or receive any benefits in Portugal, so long as we did not stay for more than 6 months.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Yes EU Law does say that and if you then check the Portuguese Legislation which is where the *"may"* comes in it states you are reguired to register your Residence before the 4 month,


According to the provisions of Act 37/2006 of 9 August, these are the citizens who have a right to enter, remain and reside in Portugal: 

- The Nationals of all European Union Member-States (EU) that travel or reside in Portugal, as well as their family members travelling or reunifying with them; 

If you are an EU/EEA/Switzerland citizen and intend to stay in Portugal for a period exceeding three months, please apply for your REGISTRATION CERTIFICATE FOR EU/EEA/SWITZERLAND CITIZEN 

The Registration Certificate is the document that formalizes the right of residence in Portugal and must be applied for by any EU/EEA/Switzerland citizen that remains in Portugal for a period exceeding three months. If the period of stay is inferior to three months it only mandatory to hold a valid Identity Card or Passport.

Afraid your Camara is incorrect in saying you can stay without registering for 6 months, maybe you asked the question when EU Social Charter first came into effect when it was 6 months but this has not been the case for at least 8 years


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## Easyriders (Apr 4, 2013)

I can only repeat what the town hall told us in October 2013, but we will check again. If they say we need to register, we will do so. They also told us they were happy we had chosen Portugal for our second home, particularly since we are pensioners who choose to spend our money in Portugal! In other words, we do not claim any benefits there, nor do we work, but we do put money into the economy.

It is also unclear from what is said above whether any 3 month limit is only per trip; as our house in Portugal is near the border with Spain, we use it as a base, but we also spend some time touring in our campervan, both in Portugal and in Spain, so it would be easy for us to ensure that we did not stay in Portugal for more than 3 months at a time.

However, one of the things we would need if we needed to register is proof of good health insurance - which is precisely what my original question was about!

Thankfully, we have now found health insurance. As pensioners, if we need to register, we need this along with our UK passports and proof of income, neither of which are a problem.

I am sure there must be many using this forum who are also second home owners, and so am surprised that nobody gave a useful answer about the type of medical insurance we need. It's called long-term single trip insurance, it can run for up to 18 months, and can be tailored to your needs. We chose comprehensive health insurance including repatriation covering France, Spain and Portugal. We didn't need the other stuff often included in travel insurance such as delayed flights etc.

Perhaps this information may help others. The insurance company is called Staysure.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

None of these are Portuguese Laws but EU Law that are common to all EU countries.
The only difference country to country is how or where you register. The UK being the exception as it has no formal registration.
As Portuguese Residents we face exactly the same scenarios when we visit UK or other EU countries.
The basis is so EU Citizens can't pretend they're not Resident somewhere and avoiding tax.

You might want to reconsider your thought to Register if that's what Camara say (they should, but being Portugal they might not) it might have far more implications for you as you cannot be a Resident of 2 EU Countries at one time, should you register your Residence in Portugal you lose your rights as a UK Resident, if you want to stay within the letter of Portuguese Residence Registration then you need to limit a stay to a max of 3 months

The stipulation is that if you spend +3 months you must Register by the 4th month, a weekend or a slightly longer period does not restart the 3 month clock.

I'm sure you really don't want to know but you present yourself with other issues, the maximum period of time your UK vehicle can be in Portugal *is 183 cumnlative days in any 12 month period*, the same applies about weekends short trips away they don't restart the 12 month or cumnlative clock.


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## weatherwatcher (Nov 27, 2011)

been following this thread now and just out of interest, how would they know how long you've been in the country, how does anybody know? We've been stopping in a rental ( no contract ) for 10 weeks now. Our builder told us he would only take 4 - 6 weeks to renovate our house that we bought back in September and we're fast approaching this 3 month time period that is being talked about. We were hoping to have moved in to our house, bought furniture etc; and be away from Portugal by now and back in either Spain where we are resident or over to UK for a visit before we came back to Portugal for the summer. Are we supposed to have a Portuguese registered car while we are here,( our car is Spanish registered) and then re- register again when we go back to Spain where we still have a house, we are at a loss as to know what to do for the best and before anybody tells us we need to make our minds up where we want to make our permanent home, why can't we have both???


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Simply because EU Laws don't allow it and are designed exactly for that reason.

One can be a permanent home and one can be a secondary home, the decision afraid you have to make is which country is your main country of Residence and organize your life, stays,car ownership, health cover etc around that, probably for an Expat Portugal is more favourable with recent changes in Spains laws & health and succession .

Your present car is subject to 183 day cumnalitive rule

Afraid there's many ways authorities can know but the onus is generally on you to prove you've not overstayed etc, which can be more difficult


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## Easyriders (Apr 4, 2013)

canoeman said:


> None of these are Portuguese Laws but EU Law that are common to all EU countries.
> The only difference country to country is how or where you register. The UK being the exception as it has no formal registration.
> As Portuguese Residents we face exactly the same scenarios when we visit UK or other EU countries.
> The basis is so EU Citizens can't pretend they're not Resident somewhere and avoiding tax.
> ...


As we only ever plan to stay outside the UK for a maximum total of five months per year, we have no problems with our vehicle.

We can easily stay in Spain for a month, so splitting our 4 month stay in Portugal into 2 2month periods. 

But my point was, anyone who is not a permanent resident, such as a second home owner, will need the type of health insurance we have now found, and it seems many people are unaware of this. Indeed, a pensioner cannot register as resident without the correct health insurance.

I think the relaxed attitude shown by our Camara reflects the recognition that a narrow view of residency makes a nonsense of the idea of free movement of people in the EU. As we live in the UK for 7 months of the year, have all our income earned and taxed in the UK, we are obviously residents of the UK, and so cannot also be residents of Portugal.

Taking the commonsense view, Portugal like most countries,is anxious to keep out freeloaders who might take advantage of health and welafre benefits etc. We are certainly not in that category, in fact we pay into the Portuguese economy without taking anything out. As indeed is true for second home owners and long term travellers all over Europe. For example, thousands of retired people, particularly Dutch and British, spend five winter months on campsites in southern Europe, including Portugal. Indeed, campsites offer special rates for these long stays. Insisting such people change their residency, and so lose their residency in their home country, is plainly ridiculous.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Any EU visitor is covered in Portugal by their EHIC card, although sensibly it shouldn't be relied for everything as if you want repatriation then you need insurance and UK Residents can actually claim back any health expenses from Portugal that would be free to them in UK.

It's not your Camaras attitude it's if any other body for whatever reason decides to check on your status here, afraid that because your Camara says one thing then that is no defense, I'm not saying you must do this or follow that but I do think that Residents and Non Residents should be aware of the issues and pitfalls, it's then your choice

"Indeed, a pensioner cannot register as resident without the correct health insurance" it's extremely easy for a UK/EU Pensioner to register and there is absolutely no requirement for Health Insurance

As Residents we also contribute to the Portuguese economy directly and indirectly


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## Easyriders (Apr 4, 2013)

On the contrary, pensioners do indeed need health insurance, as shown in 
http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/worker-pensioner/rights-conditions/index_en.htm

Rights, conditions and formalities[/url]

"Registration

During the first 3 months of your stay in your new country, you cannot be required to register (to obtain a document confirming your right to stay) but can do so if you wish.

After 3 months in your new country, you may be required to register with the relevant authority (often the town hall or local police station).

To obtain your registration certificate, you will need:

* Employees / Postings abroad
o Valid identity card or passport
o Certificate of employment or confirmation of recruitment from your employer
* Self-employed
o Valid identity card or passport
o Proof of your status as self-employed
* Pensioners
o Valid identity card or passport
o Proof of comprehensive health insurance
o Proof you can support yourself without needing income support.

You do not need to provide any other documents."


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Your only reading *part* of a general EU procedure, *you have to look further* for each country's regulations, for Portugal as I've stated " Proof of comprehensive health insurance" is only a requirement if a Portuguese National is reguired to have " Proof of comprehensive health insurance" or to have health insurance in that Pensioners/persons country, if say a US Citizen moved to Portugal and didn't work they would reguire Private Health Insurance but if they worked they wouldn't as they'd be enrolled in Social Security and Health Service

For a UK State Pensioner or a dependent moving to Portugal the procedure is extremely straightforward
They register with Social Security with a S1 or the new equivalent, with their Social Security numbers they then register at their local Health Centre which registers you with the Portuguese Health Service, they pay the same fees as a Portuguese National and are treated in exactly the same way.


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## siobhanwf (Mar 20, 2009)

Easyrider, Canoeman is TOTALLY correc with regards to the requirements for the health service here in Portugal. 
Provate insurance is a matter of choice.


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## Easyriders (Apr 4, 2013)

I am a UK state pensioner. My husband is not. He is retired, with a company pension, but will not receive a UK state pension for another 2 years. He is not my dependent.

My original question was about long-term insurance to cover health needs including repatriation in France, Spain and Portugal. Although we both have EHIC cards, these cover emergency treatment only in any country, including Portugal.

I think the above thread shows considerable confusion about the notion of "Resident". For example, Canoeman says that one must register as resident in Portugal after a stay of 3 months, and can then not be resident in another country.

This is incorrect.

The European Commission published a guide in January of this year to clarify these issues:

EUROPA - PRESS RELEASES - Press release - Free movement: Commission publishes guide on application of â€˜Habitual Residence Testâ€™ for social security

At the bottom of that page there is a link to the "Guide on the habitual residence test".

(I hope the link will show up correctly, I have had problems posting links on this site before. If it does not show correctly, I will post again with more details).

The rules on " Residence" apply to all member states of the EU. One can only be resident in one country, and resident is clearly defined in this guide:

"Article 1(j) and (k) of Regulation 883/2004 make a distinction between “residence” and “stay”: Residence is defined as the place where a person habitually resides, whereas stay means temporary residence."

The distinction between "residence" and "stay" can be a complicated issue, and much of the guide is concerned with migrant, contract, or cross-border workers.

However, the distinction as it applies to retired people is much simpler:

" the legislation of the country of residence shall apply, however, ␣ where a person does not pursue an economic activity (e.g. pensioners,
children, students) according to Article 11(3)(e) of Regulation 883/2004 "

THE POINT to note here is that if any member state requires a registration certificate for a stay of more than 3 months, this does NOT mean that the person's residence has changed. It simply means that they are registered for a longer stay. This is particularly important to note for retired persons like me and my husband.

The Guide gives an example of a situation that is close to ours:

" 4.7. Pensioners (A)
Mr G is a German pensioner. In Germany, he owns a house with a garden. He spends most of his holidays in Spain with his wife After retirement, they buy a small apartment in the summer resort in Spain, where they have spent most of their holidays. They now live half of the year in the apartment in Spain and half of the year in their house in Germany.

Assessment: In such a situation, neither duration and continuity of presence in Germany or Spain nor family situation provide a clear answer. It could be assumed that he moves his place of residence every six months, but such an assumption of two alternating places of residence within a year should be avoided.
The fact that Mr G and his wife own their house in Germany and have only a small apartment in Spain, that they are German nationals, that they have spent their active life mostly in Germany, that they draw (only) a German pension, speak in favour of the assumption that they maintain their closest ties, i.e. the major centre of their personal, social and economic interests in Germany even during the periods they spend in Spain.

Conclusion: Mr G and his wife continue to reside in Germany even during the periods they live in Spain." 

Our own case is even clearer. We own a large house in the UK, where our daughter still lives. We have four sons and six grandchildren who all live in the UK. Our family is the reason why we do not wish to be residents of Portugal, at least for now. We spend only 5 months of the year outside of the UK, and all of our income is derived in the Uk and is taxed there.

I respectfully suggest that Canoeman and others should be careful to check their facts before they give possibly misleading opinions on the question of residence.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

"Dependant Relative" is a term used by UK, should you decide to retire to Portugal before your husband is of UK State Pension age under current rules he can be classified as a Dependent Relative because you are a Pensioner, all it does is to make the registration with Social and Health Service that much easier

You're basing your interpretation of the need to Register or not on a Press Release notifying of a guide and clarification of *‘Habitual Residence Test’ for social security* which with respect is a *very very different thing* to EU and Portuguese Law on Registering Residence

The current Law in Portugal states you must registering your Residence if you stay longer than 3 months and registration must be done by the 4th month, once Registered you are considered a Portuguese Resident

"According to the provisions of Act 37/2006 of 9 August, these are the citizens who have a right to enter, remain and reside in Portugal: 

- The Nationals of all European Union Member-States (EU) that travel or reside in Portugal, as well as their family members travelling or reunifying with them; 
- The nationals of States party to the European Economic Area, Principality of Andorra and Switzerland, as well as their family members; 
- The family members of Portuguese citizens regardless of their nationality.


> If you are an EU/EEA/Switzerland citizen and intend to stay in Portugal for a period exceeding three months, please apply for your REGISTRATION CERTIFICATE FOR EU/EEA/SWITZERLAND CITIZEN "

"CHAPTER VI

Administrative formalities

SECTION I

Right of residence for more than three months

Article 14.

Registration of EU citizens
*
Union citizens whose stay in the national territory lasts for more than three months must register in order to formalize their right of residence within 30 days after the three months of entry into the national territory.*
The register referred to in the preceding paragraph is made with the municipal council of the area of ​​residence."

This is the full Law
Portal SEF


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## Easyriders (Apr 4, 2013)

You are deliberately missing the points I make above, Canoeman.
The guide I quote from above is given as clarification of the existing rules on residence, and they apply to all EU member states. If you read it, you will see that this is the case.

The registration certificate gives the right to stay for more than 3 months, it does not imply or confer residency in the proper sense of the word, as this guide makes perfectly clear. 

I wonder if you have ever made an apology for getting your facts wrong? Or for insulting someone for suggesting they are behaving illegally, as you do in this thread?

Some of the things you say could seriously mislead other people in a similar position to ours.

I do hope a Moderator will read this thread in its entirety.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

*It is you that is quoting a piece of information* that has *nothing whatsoever* to do with the Requirement to Register your Residence in Portugal if your stay is longer than 3 months and therefore misleading to yourself and others

Please read the title

‘*Habitual Residence Test’ for social security* 

This EU guide is about the Habitual Residence Test that is applied to EU citizens* "who have moved"* their rights to Social Security payments and the "test" applied as to the EU country responsible for those payments.

The German couple you make a point of are because of property, family ties etc considered *German Habitual Residents* and as it says any Social Security they might be entitled to is governed by German Law.

I have not as you imply insulted you for behaving illegally but pointing out to you that your information is incorrect and you therefore create a possible problems for yourself.


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