# Is life greener in the UK?



## killingxspree (Mar 12, 2010)

Ok, so I'm trying not to go into the UK with green coloured specs... but I need some insight. 
Why is the UK such a bad place to live in? I don't want to go there and be hit with it.
There is a myriad of UK expats in Australia and I just don't get it.
Some of the very vague reasons I've heard cited for moving were lifestyle, nice place to raise children and the government sucks in the UK...???

am I missing something here?

Is this 'ignorance is bliss' speaking? 
please enlighten me what social, socio-economic, educational, political problems....etc people in the UK face that push them towards Australia [is it really better here?]


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

killingxspree said:


> Ok, so I'm trying not to go into the UK with green coloured specs... but I need some insight.
> Why is the UK such a bad place to live in? I don't want to go there and be hit with it.
> There is a myriad of UK expats in Australia and I just don't get it.
> Some of the very vague reasons I've heard cited for moving were lifestyle, nice place to raise children and the government sucks in the UK...???
> ...


The reasons I left the UK, in no particular order are

Lack of Space
too full, too many people in such a country
lots of unecessary rules
lack of sunshine, always grey
feels claustrophobic
nanny state
government who doesnt listen to the people 
miserable people, who always seem uptight and "beaten"
dull
characterless 

Jo xxx


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

The U.K. is cold, wet, and expensive, especially in the south.

The government are a set of plonkers who are living in La La land.

Certain areas you would think by the population that you are on the Indian sub continent.

I have been to Australia, you have a better country there. I nearly stayed, (illegally) but changed my mind at the last minute. I tried for many years to return legally, but it wasn't to be.

If you are going to the U.K. go in February, you will then understand what we are talking about.

Far better here in the Canary Islands


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

I left for a better quality of life which includes:
# Respect for other people and their property, both of which are largely missing now in UK
# A return to a life where you care about other people and they care about you
# A life where everything is not just about having the latest trendy flashy crap and the attitude is still "if it ain't broke don't fix it" yet "if it is broke, first try to fix it before buying another new one" and should the worst happen and "you have to buy a replacement don't add to landfill donate it to someone else who can use the broken one for spares to fix other broken ones".

Just like it used to be 60 years ago in the UK village where I was brought up.


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## BabsM (May 24, 2008)

killingxspree said:


> Ok, so I'm trying not to go into the UK with green coloured specs... but I need some insight.
> Why is the UK such a bad place to live in? I don't want to go there and be hit with it.
> [is it really better here?]


its not just Australia.... we go to countries all over the world!
The husband and I left England for all the reasons below. We hated the nanny state, we hated having to do better all the time to pay the increasing taxes, we hated the fact everything was being taxed. And we hated the cost of living.

But most of all, we were happy to leave, because England was no longer the place we grew up in. The values that that country stood for had changed, our government was wageing war in our name when we opposed. Everyone was too busy rushing around trying to earn enough to live and had lost the concern for others. Not only were children not safe in the streets but suddenly everyone else had become a threat to my safety, my family's safety, and the safety of everyone we knew. We were being watched by the cameras all the time and even our phone calls and emails could be monitored.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Let me put a contrary view.
Have lived in several other countries in the world. Currently live in England and am happy to stay, even though emigrating has crossed my mind.
Reasons why England is fine for me include:
Have family, friends and social life here.
I feel safe in where I live, though there are parts of a city or town I wouldn't like to live in.
Sense of history, old buildings that have stood for centuries and still lovingly looked after, every part of the country has something to remind me of history, from Romans to the Victorians.
Great cultural, artistic and musical life.
Good range of top-class professional sports, esp football.
Ease of travelling all around Europe.
Taxation, to me, is no worse than in many others I have lived or stayed in. Of course some things are more highly taxed (e.g. alcohol) than in others, but income tax and social security payments are no worse, and lower than in some.
Government? Nanny state? I try not to get too influenced by what they do, and there are ways to reduce their hold on one's freedom. Change of government(?) may alter this.
I think racial diversity is a great plus.
Tradition of tolerance, welcome and openess - perhaps not as pronounced now, but still there if you care to mingle with right sort of people.


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## BabsM (May 24, 2008)

Joppa said:


> Let me put a contrary view.
> Have lived in several other countries in the world. Currently live in England and am happy to stay, even though emigrating has crossed my mind.
> Reasons why England is fine for me include:
> Have family, friends and social life here.
> ...


Good points :clap2: 
The radio stations aren't good here. :boxing: Concerts here are cheaper to attend and sometimes even free! :clap2:
Don't miss the sports, we get some on TV and now we've found a way to get the Grand Prix too I am happy :clap2:
Ease of travelling here? five cars and its rush hour.... I do not miss the M25! :eyebrows:

I agree about racial diversity being a plus... so long as it doesn't swamp British culture and identity. You can already see that starting here, where so many immigrants from one country move into an area and swamp the local culture. I don't like it when British children in Britain find themselves in the minority in their classes.... and I would feel the same about children in any other country. 

The tradition of tolerance, welcoming and openness was a great thing about Britain. I think it is disappearing fast. I mourn its passing and I think Britain will be a lesser place and community without it.


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## tackle (Mar 9, 2010)

unfortunately im still in the uk but looking to change that asap......my reasons for going are as follows:
CRIME: stupidly high crime rates, used to live in london where its horrendous, but now on the south kent coast, its better but far from perfect.

GOVERNMENT: while im aware there's no such thing as an honest politician, the lies, bs & hypocrisy pedalled by this government of "spin" i think far exceed that of previous governments, "new labour" unfortunately has all the worst qualities of both old labour & the conservatives & unfortunately the damage they have done will probably never be reversed.

IMMIGRATION: im all for helping oppressed & downtrodden people, but this has become a joke, most asylum seekers travel through a dozen perfectly good countries to get here, just so they can get paid & housed for doing nothing.......when i lived in london & anybody moaned about all the asian shopkeepers i always stood up for them, after all they worked hard & put in the hours supplying the local community when all the "white" shops were closed.......& again the government has failed us by not closing the floodgates.

COST OF LIVINGne of the most expensive countries to live in, paying too much for all products & "services",with very little to show for it........& it keeps going up while "services" are being cut.......whats that about ?.

QUALITY OF LIFE:if you work hard you should be able to reap the rewards of your labour, not treated like a cash cow every time you do a bit of overtime.......otherwise whats the point, might as well join the dole & get treated better.

there are numerous other reason why we want to leave but i dont want this to become a soapbox rant.........the thing that really brings this home to us is our son, he is now 12 & our "life", we just dont see a future for him in the uk.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2010)

Some of the negatives above are reasons why I wouldn't be that keen on living in Australia either!

There's a kind of look after number one, stick the parents in an old folks home asap, kick others in the teeth before they get you first attitude... with kids growing up thinking they deserve everything and have to give nothing in return ... that's come with increased prosperity and the Anglo-Saxon led worship of consumerism, 'neo-liberalism' in political terms.

Not so obvious to those who can't look back and see the changes as each decade has gone by, but respect has gone out of the window, family and community life are not what they once were.

The Uk is not the worst place in the world, and as Joppa has pointed out, it has history, access to cultural and sporting facilities, and is a relatively benign democracy compared to other far less pleasant regimes. But it has miserable weather, and the country, having wagered heavily - and stupidly - on the financial and insurance sectors during the 80s, virtually abandoning industry, is now paying the price as one of the most indebted Western nations. It's definitely going to get worse, a lot worse, before it gets better. Mugs can swallow the political hype if that makes them feel more comfortable, but I don't believe any of it. 

Much as I love France which has retained at least something of the old ways, I would return to SE Asia like a shot.

Go to two villages of comparable size in the UK and France, say 3,000 people in a rural area, and in France there is still a genuine community spirit, a village with dozens of small shops, cafes, restaurants, banks, a post office, weekly market... in the UK equivalent you would be lucky if it has a Chinese takeaway.


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## BabsM (May 24, 2008)

I do think its sad that we are having this whole debate. When our children were small England was a brilliant place to live in. We lived in a village, went to school in the village, got the essentials in the shops, had Brownies and Cubs, Guides and Scouts and dancing/music lessons, Mothers Union, Women's Institute, pancake day races and summer fetes. We knew all our neighbours by name and they knew us. People rarely moved into or out of the village. The local policeman rode round on his bike and we all knew him and he knew us, he had very little crime to deal with, just the occasional lost dog. He regularly popped into events in the village to network and so did the local vicar. We enjoyed our life and had most of what we needed could be found in the village. Once a week we would go to a local big town for our weekly shopping. We left our doors, window, cars unlocked and toys in the front garden or even in the street. We respected the old people and expected our children to do the same would not have dreamed of being rude to them or to each other. We helped each other if someone had a problem, did shopping for people who couldn't.

I was proud to be British and proud to be living in England. It was a good place to live and a good life. Emigrating was not even thought about, let alone planned.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2010)

That sums up my memories to a T, Babs. As you say, very sad.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

BabsM said:


> I do think its sad that we are having this whole debate. When our children were small England was a brilliant place to live in. We lived in a village, went to school in the village, got the essentials in the shops, had Brownies and Cubs, Guides and Scouts and dancing/music lessons, Mothers Union, Women's Institute, pancake day races and summer fetes. We knew all our neighbours by name and they knew us. People rarely moved into or out of the village. The local policeman rode round on his bike and we all knew him and he knew us, he had very little crime to deal with, just the occasional lost dog. He regularly popped into events in the village to network and so did the local vicar. We enjoyed our life and had most of what we needed could be found in the village. Once a week we would go to a local big town for our weekly shopping. We left our doors, window, cars unlocked and toys in the front garden or even in the street. We respected the old people and expected our children to do the same would not have dreamed of being rude to them or to each other. We helped each other if someone had a problem, did shopping for people who couldn't.
> 
> I was proud to be British and proud to be living in England. It was a good place to live and a good life. Emigrating was not even thought about, let alone planned.



Sadly, progress has come in and opened up a world where people want to move around, travel and are moving away from their roots and their communities. Its sad but progress. The one thing that has happened in amongst all that is the lack of respect and manners - they've almost gone!! The politeness has gone - Even silly things like shaking hands, being called mr. or mrs. whatever, first names are more often than not used these days, even policemen now are being called by their first names to make them less menacing - but wasnt it that respect and that "menacing" feeling that kept everyone in their place?? In the UK we've gone too soft and have lost respect, not only for one another, but for ourselves - sadly I think its spreading across the globe

Jo xxx


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2010)

Agree with that Jo... but I think "_progress_" is the wrong word!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

frogblogger said:


> Agree with that Jo... but I think "_progress_" is the wrong word!



Hhhm, it depends if you define "progress" as positive or simply a "progression" of time - which is how I meant it!! Whats happening IMO isnt good, I just wonder where its eventually heading???? As fast as we run away from it, it catches us up! 

However, on a positive note, we are lucky to be living in a world where we can up sticks and fly to other places, we have good health services, good amenities, a good understanding of ourselves, heck, we can even chat on the internet at will! Two thirds of the world are living in real poverty, starving and confronted with war and death when they open their eyes every morning ( I always try to tell myself that when I despair at the UK etc!!!!????)

Jo xxx


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## zeebo (Nov 15, 2009)

England is is a glorious corpse.. Love the history but agree with all the above.. 

THe grass isnt always greener though, when in the UK i thought the UK people were souless, rude and insainly materialistic.. Then i came to Cyprus and was shocked to see an exadurated version..


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

As I have said before, the above is why I am here in Spain in a village where there is still respect for people property and a way of life. OK I know the local policeman by his first name but then with so many inter-related people in the village with the same surname(s), it is only by using first names or nick-names that one can distinguish between them 

To be honest, we were back in UK for a week in November and in broad daylight in the middle of the High Street, we felt uncomfortable with thuggish looking and acting yobs (up to about 45 yr olds) around; we couldn't get back here quick enough!


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## ChungyUK (Feb 27, 2008)

True say!


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## Minuvweyna (Aug 6, 2008)

I think, as always, that you must be careful about these discussions. Anyone that has moved away from anywhere has reasons for doing so, and generally they either dislike where they came from or really really like where they moved to. I fit both criteria, and so I would caution anyone in asking for non-specific advice like this that you are getting opinions that are based on many individual experiences that may or may not apply to you.

I try very hard not to post on the US board with all of the reasons about why I left, because many of them are personal, and may well never apply to anyone else because their circumstances will be different. That does not invalidate my reasons for leaving, or anyone's reasons for leaving the UK, but that which is bad to one person may not be that important to another and even a positive for another!

I think the best thing is to try to visit a place, avoid the tourist areas, speak with locals, and decide if the place is right for you. Also remember, that different areas of the UK can be very different in character, so while one city might be very wrong for you, another might make you very happy.

Good luck!

Elizabeth


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Hi Elizabeth
That's a great answer. 

Many of us who are posting on here are natives from UK. Now if we want to leave, there have to be very good and valid reasons for lifting our roots and carting our families elsewhere. Yes, many of those reasons will be personal, and although we would like to make our responses objective there is really no objective answer, it is, after all, a subjective question.


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## Weebie (Sep 16, 2009)

Here are the reasons why the UK is awesome.

Expensive???? comon are you serious everything is double or 3 times cheaper than Australia. Food costs nothing and I know a place where I can get a pint for $1.80AUD. A pint will cost me $8-10 minimum here in Perth

Cold and Dark: well yeah it is like that but that makes you appreciate warm weather and do more with it. Also the UK has many other things such as awesome pubs bars, cafes and other activiities that kill Australia to a point that the weather isn't going to bother you.

Close proximity to Europe: Dude you can travel to a new place and a new culture in the space in under 45 mins. One of the big things Deluded Brits forget or don't plan is how much they will miss europe when they're in Australia.

Girls: Hot Girls many different nationalities.

History: so much history you won't believe. Will keep you interested for hundreds of hours.

Basically in Summary the weather is a bit **** but there is so much to do in the UK it won't even bother you one bit. In Australia you'll probably spend your weekends sittign at home watching Foxtel whilst in the UK you will use your time better. Your at a world epicentre and the excitement of the place is amazing.

I spoke to a Brit who has been in Australia for 40 years and is too old to go back now. He regrets he decision to migrate here majorally. In his words to get nice sunshine in Australia big sacrifices in his life were made. The place is awesome


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Weebie said:


> Here are the reasons why the UK is awesome.
> 
> Expensive???? comon are you serious everything is double or 3 times cheaper than Australia. Food costs nothing and I know a place where I can get a pint for $1.80AUD. A pint will cost me $8-10 minimum here in Perth
> 
> ...


1. not all of us are into pubs and bars or even beer! (since when do Aussies drink beer anyway, I thought all they had was frozen gnat's p*ss which like American "beer" has to be drunk almost frozen to kill one's sense of taste.)

2. Who said we would want to go to OZ anyway? let alone watch their TV, we've already seen their major export "Neighbours" and if *that *is their best effort ....

3. Europe? There are good bits and bad bits. I live in one of the better bits where people are still respectful of other people and their way of life unlike in UK now.

You have to admire the determination and tenacity of a Brit who has lasted 40 years in OZ or was he deported there? When he left UK it wasn't such an awful place, he doesn't realise how much it has changed in the intervening period.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2010)

Weebie said:


> One of the big things Deluded Brits forget or don't plan is how much they will miss europe when they're in Australia.


Who the H. wants to go to Oz? That's _waaaaaay_ down my list of countries to live in. Pretty close to bottom, in fact.

This 'deluded' Brit has lived away from the UK, around Europe and in SE Asia, for more than 25 years. I haven't even set foot in the place since early 2000, ten years ago now. And that was for a flying visit.

I haven't missed the UK once, not for a second, and over three years in Thailand I didn't miss anything about Europe either.


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## Weebie (Sep 16, 2009)

frogblogger said:


> Who the H. wants to go to Oz? That's _waaaaaay_ down my list of countries to live in. Pretty close to bottom, in fact.
> 
> This 'deluded' Brit has lived away from the UK, around Europe and in SE Asia, for more than 25 years. I haven't even set foot in the place since early 2000, ten years ago now. And that was for a flying visit.
> 
> I haven't missed the UK once, not for a second, and over three years in Thailand I didn't miss anything about Europe either.


I wasn't attacking nayone or singling out a poster in this thread.

Its just something I wanted to point out.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2010)

Weebie said:


> I wasn't attacking nayone or singling out a poster in this thread.
> 
> Its just something I wanted to point out.


No problem, it's just that you made it sound as if the only place Brits look to emigrate to is Australia, and that for some obscure reason we were all bound to miss Europe once we had left the UK.

The government IPPR Brits Abroad study in 2006 estimated that some 5.5 million Brits live abroad permanently, a further 500,000 for part of the year. The top ten countries are Australia, Spain, US, Canada, Ireland, New Zealand, South Africa, France, Germany and Cyprus, but in total there are 112 countries with sizeable British expat communities (< 1000).

Apparently there are some 58 million people alive today claiming British ancestry who live abroad, which puts us around the size of the Indian and Chinese diasporas.


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## Gramonion (Feb 23, 2010)

Hey all, You might think the UK is bad, but all countries are the same you just don't see it.
If you go on holiday somewhere then you are just looking through rose tinted glasses!!!
Reality is very much different.
I am from the UK and I currently live in Ukraine.
If you think UK is expensive then you want to try living here on Ukrainian wages.

Yes I agree some things are a joke like immigration.
Claim asylum and your sorted, but if like me you want to take your foreign wife then its red tape all the way.

But its the same here in Ukraine. You only really learn about a country when you live there for a reasonable amount of time.

Best thing you can do is "try for yourself", if you don't like it, then leave!


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2010)

Gramonion said:


> Hey all, You might think the UK is bad, but all countries are the same you just don't see it.
> If you go on holiday somewhere then you are just looking through rose tinted glasses!!!
> Reality is very much different.


Well some of us who think life in the UK is greener only because it rains too much have been expats for a _loooooooooong _time, so maybe there's a little more to our reasoning than you suggest!


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## nina874 (Mar 13, 2010)

Weebie said:


> Here are the reasons why the UK is awesome.
> 
> Expensive???? comon are you serious everything is double or 3 times cheaper than Australia. Food costs nothing and I know a place where I can get a pint for $1.80AUD. A pint will cost me $8-10 minimum here in Perth
> 
> ...


Thank you for such a positive view of our country! I sometimes feel like we have become an international object of pity, or even worse laughing stock, so it is refreshing to read such a glowing report! 

You are right that there are many things that we take for granted, but I will be able to access most of them AND get some decent weather, history and hopefully a more community based caring culture in Spain, thus getting the best of all worlds - hopefully........!

I do think that the Brits like to moan a bit, and we tend to focus on our bad points rather than blowing our own trumpets - guess we just arent comfortable with it. Its a strange combination really, the stiff upper lip combined with a negative iew of the world, maybe we are struggling with adjusting to no longer being an empire??

We have serious issues with our youth, and the 'me, me, me' culture that seems to have developed, and to a large degree we have noone to blame but ourselves, but it is easier to become apathetic than actually stand up and deal with it. Or you can just leave - thank the lord for the EEA freedom of movement!


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2010)

I read in one report that the equivalent population of a town the size of Birmingham (1m) migrates to the UK each year, while that of the urban area of Nottingham (650K) heads abroad.

Sounds pretty amazing to me if true, that would be having a marked effect on the ethnic make-up of the country. Still it's sixteen years since I spent any time there, so I've little idea of how things are now in that respect. I imagine I might have a few surprises strolling through my former home town these days. When I was there, there was no such thing as a Polish plumber!...


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## Weebie (Sep 16, 2009)

frogblogger said:


> I read in one report that the equivalent population of a town the size of Birmingham (1m) migrates to the UK each year, while that of the urban area of Nottingham (650K) heads abroad.
> 
> Sounds pretty amazing to me if true, that would be having a marked effect on the ethnic make-up of the country. Still it's sixteen years since I spent any time there, so I've little idea of how things are now in that respect. I imagine I might have a few surprises strolling through my former home town these days. When I was there, there was no such thing as a Polish plumber!...


The UK has a large immigrate population. But no more than America, Australia or New Zealand which are countries totally made up on immigration. London has a high level of peopel from overseas but It's a major international centre of course thing things are going to happen.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2010)

Weebie said:


> The UK has a large immigrate population. But no more than America, Australia or New Zealand which are countries totally made up on immigration. London has a high level of peopel from overseas but It's a major international centre of course thing things are going to happen.


The first point I was making was that there is a bigger outflow than in most other countries, stats that are backed up by the numbers of British nationals, as a proportion of the national population, living abroad on a permanent basis (close to 10%).

The second point I was making was that the biggest changes have been happening in the last twenty or thirty years or so, particularly since the freedom of movement within the EU began to take effect, in addition to the intake from former colonies.

Comparisons with New World nations aren't very useful, obviously the latter are almost entirely made up of people from elsewhere.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Gramonion said:


> Best thing you can do is "try for yourself", if you don't like it, then leave!


We did and now live in Spain. As for the foreign wife - no problem; the foreign mother-in-law is another matter!


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

I have lived in UK full time for 7 years and one and off 11 ish. I dont agree its more expensive at all, in fact property is more expensive back where I lived in australia and other items are alos cheaper. 

That being said, its not greener here, people are rude and selfish, there is a distinct lack of family values, the benefits culture drives me mad, its cold, wet, theres a "must have the big plasma telly and sky and the sofa for xmas" culture, kids cant play out, your bum gets wet if you sit on the grass, you cant actually swim at the beach and you cant park.

But its easier to make money, you can get to loads of other places in the world easier , internet shopping is fabulous and you can get away with being overweight more without some yobbo shouting at you for being a fat sheila. (helps after the obligatory stone is gained). Bonus.


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## BabsM (May 24, 2008)

temporary said:


> That being said, its not greener here, people are rude and selfish, there is a distinct lack of family values, the benefits culture drives me mad, its cold, wet, theres a "must have the big plasma telly and sky and the sofa for xmas" culture, kids cant play out, your bum gets wet if you sit on the grass, you cant actually swim at the beach and you cant park.


I feel I must take issue with you here, SOME people are rude, SOME people are selfish, SOME people have no family values. But then that's true the world over. MANY people do not believe in scrounging off the State and MANY Brits do not overspend at Xmas.

My kids played out all the time unless they got too noisy and looked as if they were annoying the neighbours, in which case they were brought in and got a thick ear! We lived near the beach and swam when it was warm enough.

Why am I in Cyprus after being born in the UK and living there all my life? Because England is too expensive, there are too many taxes and we can't afford to live there


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

well I can only go by my experience


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

should add also....I find theat its cheaper to live here and I am taxed less and do a shorter working week than where I previously lived


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

temporary said:


> I have lived in UK full time for 7 years and one and off 11 ish. I dont agree its more expensive at all, in fact property is more expensive back where I lived in australia and other items are alos cheaper.
> 
> That being said, its not greener here, people are rude and selfish, there is a distinct lack of family values, the benefits culture drives me mad, its cold, wet, theres a "must have the big plasma telly and sky and the sofa for xmas" culture, kids cant play out, your bum gets wet if you sit on the grass, you cant actually swim at the beach and you cant park.


Interesting.
I live in Spain, but I still have a place in the UK.
I didnt leave the UK because I hated it, I left purely because I fancied a different way of life for a while

I've travelled a lot in my life. I like living in Spain. But I have to say that I still love the UK. Its a beautiful country with beautiful countryside and a fantastic history. OK, the weather is not always wonderful, but thats something I got used to over the many years I lived there.

I dont agree that people are rude and selfish .... unless of course you live in London which is the only place I've experienced it!  I lived around Birmingham and also Warwickshire. Kids play out all the time. I dont see a problem with sitting with your bum on the sofa on Christmas day with your family ... thats what Christmas day is all about, being with family.

I go back fairly regularly, and enjoy it every time. I dont see any aggo, and I dont feel unsafe when out at night. Its a great country, and maybe listening to people who fled the UK to escape their problems is not the best way of gaining a balanced view.


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

Im not sure what you mean by listening to people who have fled UK...i dont actually know any

I think its nice that people are positive and loyal about their home country after they have left


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

temporary said:


> Im not sure what you mean by listening to people who have fled UK...i dont actually know any
> 
> I think its nice that people are positive and loyal about their home country after they have left


Not referring to you, but having been on various ex pat forums for 5 or 6 years I am well aware that there are a significant number who have left the Uk because they are trying to escape various problems. Its given them a bad opinion of the UK in general. Those people I have come accross who moved just because they waqnted a change don't seem to have the same opinion and appreciate the UK for giving them what they gained in their lives by living there, and in effect what allowed them to move abroad in the first place


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

Will you return to UK do you think?


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

temporary said:


> Will you return to UK do you think?


Who knows.
You just dont know what the future holds. My gut feeling is ... probably one day. But I dont see it happening for at least 10 years.

We go back fairly regularly though, I was there for 2 months over Christmas ... was a little cold though


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I´ve just come back from the UK after 5 days and it was nice to see my family and my house there, I like the cosy feel in the evenings with the carpets, the fire lit, the central heating, the rain beating on the double glazing.... all sitting around chatting, but thats just a moment in time, the family were all round because we were there. I doubt we'd see much of them if we were there all the time. In the everyday life in the UK, I find it pretty grim. A new Tescos superstore has just opened down the road and it´s been built on the edge of a rather nasty estate. Security guards and undesirables (ok, call me a snob) were everywhere. England just seems so grey and not just the colours - everything about it.

Anyway, we're back in Spain now and I feel all relaxed and "at home" again!!


Jo xxx


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## gazinchina (Apr 7, 2010)

I have just graduated from uni and moved to china to teach because there wasnt any jobs for me there. But some of you are talking crap, To crowded? moved out of london, England is actually a big place with a countryside! Yeh the government sucks but ive yet to speak to one person from any country that things there government is good. I Love England and think its a beautiful place. Yes a lot of people have moved from there recently but also a lot of people are still moving to England. I think its because of the world wide recession. that people have started looking for jobs abroad.


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

I think its a bit harsh to say people are "talking crap". People can only speak on their own experience and, maybe, that IS their experience.

I live out of London, in the countryside, and find it crowded. It is a small but very full nation, you cant argue with that.

Its an awful shame you have had to leave to find employment.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

gazinchina said:


> I have just graduated from uni and moved to china to teach because there wasnt any jobs for me there. But some of you are talking crap, To crowded? moved out of london, England is actually a big place with a countryside! Yeh the government sucks but ive yet to speak to one person from any country that things there government is good. I Love England and think its a beautiful place. Yes a lot of people have moved from there recently but also a lot of people are still moving to England. I think its because of the world wide recession. that people have started looking for jobs abroad.



There is countryside in England, but thats because it has been protected, a good thing. The roads are all busy, cos they cant/wont build anymore, the towns are all busy, shops are busy cos there are so many people all wanting to be in the same place at the same time. Housing estates, tower blocks are all huddled together creating the feeling of overcrowding. Having moved to Spain, looking at England from here, it does seem terribly overcrowded and compared to Spain (and other countries I'm sure) it is! People generally leave or go to the England cos they want to and feel they'll be happier for doing so! So I dont think anyone is "talking crap"

Jo xxx


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## The Moose (Apr 30, 2008)

The UK is no longer the place it once was. It is a changing place, as is everywhere, but sadly not for the better. My French wife cant wait to return back to France full time where the people are friendly and not so 'hostile'. We currently spend time as a roughly 50/50, but for her 50% has to go.
The weather is cold and damp, the roads are car parks, the people so stressed out and have no time for anyone. You hold on to the 'good old days', which lets be honest were the bad old days for our parents. Today, the day is bright, the sky is blue, the roads are empty, the local shops are as they should be. The neighbours pop in and out for a coffee and a chat does life get any better?. The UK not for us anymore.


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

My husband is starting to become VERY disillusioned with UK. I dont know whether that is because he is seeing it through my eyes, because he has seen life from a different view having lived for a short term with me in australia or its just a natural progression.

I am grateful for what th UK has given me (although tbh its nothing i couldnt have achieved at home and its mostly down to me striving to achieve something) but life isnt greener (to answer the OP). I guess its what you make it though.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

The UK is just too much Me, Me, Me. Everyone pushes and shoves, afraid of what they might miss if they don’t get in first. The chances are that if they don’t push in, some immigrant will get in before them. They are generally p*ssed off that those who pay their taxes and NIC are subsidising the great unwashed who sit around all day (including M.P.s) on benefits which they spend on booze and ****. In general, when we have been back we feel that we are the foreigners who do not belong. 

However, having said that, the UK is the only country I know of where a mob of immigrants can have a protest march through the capital complaining about the host country, its people, its government and threatening wholesale massacre in the name of an alien religion.

Here, in our part of Spain (I can’t speak for other parts), everyone is kind and generous offering to help, bringing gifts of surplus produce from their smallholdings and generally making you feel as though you are not an immigrant but as welcome as a native. 

A good example is a very small village (more of a hamlet really) where there was living an English couple together with the long-term spinster friend of the wife. The only one who could speak any Spanish was the husband. The husband died unexpectedly. The two women who had never even spoken (other than “Hola”) to their neighbours just had not got a clue as to what to do nor where to do it. The whole village turned to and did everything for them regarding the funeral, etc. and I mean everything! That is what you call neighbourliness on the scale I can remember in the UK village where I was born. It isn’t like that now in the UK villages, there are too many foreigners and townies there.

Basically, here in Spain there is still respect for people, property and a way of life and an attitude of “What can I do for you?” In the UK it is more “S*d you, I’m all Right Jack” and “What can you do for me?”


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

This is beginning to make me laugh now. 

The UK is not what it used to be? Of course it isn't. No country is!!!
Wanna use Spain as an example? Well, I know people who have been coming here since the early 70's. They tell me Spain isn't what it used to be. You may find people friendly now, but nothing to what they were 30 years ago. Things are changing in Spain. People are becoming more materialistic. Thats progress for you.

Time moves on. You cant expect any country to remain the same as it develops.

My experience of the UK is not like others described here. I don't know why, maybe its because I chose carefully where I lived. But most of my life was spent in and around Birmingham and I was quite happy with my life there. No pushing and shoving. Friendly people.

The ONLY time I have really disliked a place (and I apologise to those who live there) was on my trips to London. There, I agree with what people say. I found it impersonal, unfriendly, and I felt I was being ripped off whenever possible.

People are more friendly up North


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

I live up north

They arent that friendly IMO


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Quote"The UK is not what it used to be? Of course it isn't. No country is!!!
Wanna use Spain as an example? Well, I know people who have been coming here since the early 70's. They tell me Spain isn't what it used to be. You may find people friendly now, but nothing to what they were 30 years ago. Things are changing in Spain. People are becoming more materialistic. Thats progress for you."

BUT what part of Spain are you talking about? I suspect, since you refer to 'people coming here since the 70s' you are referring to the sun, sea, sand and sangria mob who have done and are still doing their best to turn Spain and its costas into thelikes of Blackpool or Skeggy or Sarfend, but in the sun. So of course it is different!

Here it is much the same as it always was according to the locals who have been here since forever except that the few expats have helped to increase trade and provide a little more employment. People here are not more materialistic, they rarely, if ever, dispose of anything especially if it can be repaired. Many of the televisions here, I'm sure are steam driven, most of the cars are at least 10 years old, ours is one of the newest at five years of age. You would expect to find a few secondhand shops, but NO, they just don't part with anything until it is of absolutely no further use [to them] and then it goes to a guy who, if he can repair it, he will or if not, he will use it for spares to get something else going.


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

It is getting rather annoying to hear a constant stream of slagging of the UK.

I do not see the point of so many of you coming onto this part of the forum for the sole intention of running it down and give posters, your extreme views.

Some of you really need to take off your Spanish rose tinted glasses !

If you left Spain, most of your neighbours will be pleased and not shed any tears if you left.

You complain about immigrants in the UK taking over the country and turning it into a place you don't recognise...

You coming here are doing the same to Spain,,,you are taking over the country and there are many who want you to leave...

Maybe a few have nice neighours who are civil and friendly..maybe if you understood Spanish, you would understand differently.

(not meant to offend but to enlighten)


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

NorthernLass said:


> It is getting rather annoying to hear a constant stream of slagging of the UK.
> 
> I do not see the point of so many of you coming onto this part of the forum for the sole intention of running it down and give posters, your extreme views.
> 
> ...


You are not prepared to say in your profile where in Spain you live, but I guess what you say about Spanish neighbours relates to YOU. Understand Spanish? Oh yes we do and only yesterday we were stopped by one of the local policemen who said how great it was to have us there because we greet them all (the villagers as well as the policeman himself) with open arms, warmth and generosity the same as they do to us.

I guess from your tone that you are still quite young and have not seen the changes that many of us have seen in UK so therefore you are not as well qualified to talk. In any case if UK is so wonderful why are you in Spain? You sound just like those ghastly Yorkshire people who go on and on about how wonderful Yorkshire is while they are living a hundred miles or so away from it!

This particular thread asks if life is greener in the UK and we are merely giving our view of the country we left and qualifying that view with the reasons we did so. It has nothing whatever to do with rose-tinted spectacles. Where I live in Spain is definitely better than where I left. There are not too many Brits (about 20) and a couple of Italian families. Our greatest immigrant group is Romanian (50). We don't mix but know where each of us is just in case we should ever need help from them or they from us.

As for immigrants going to UK - have you seen the pictures of the recent immigrant march through London threatening wholesale murder of the British population in their *own* country in the name of some alien religion. PM me with your e-mail address and I'll forward them!


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2010)

NorthernLass said:


> It is getting rather annoying to hear a constant stream of slagging of the UK... etc...


As Baldilocks said, views were asked for, and given. They are not all from expats in Spain. I pretty much agree with a lot of the criticisms, from the pov of someone who has lived in quite a few countries; over a looooong period of time.

As to simplistic statements suggesting neighbours around the world wish we expats would leave, the indigenous population have mixed feeling about the presence of an expat community. It depends both on the extent to which we are able to integrate, as well as to the effect of our presence, ie how much do we contribute to the community. Often the locals benefit financially to a considerable extent. Jobs are created. One negative aspect can be the effect on property prices. It's a complex situation.

Strav makes a good point - all countries are of course changing, all of the time. However some are changing more rapidly than others, and the UK system, which apes the American 'dream' in some respects, is at least being resisted elsewhere - thankfully. That has been my impression over many years around Europe and North Africa, mainly in France, and since then, in S.E. Asia.

As I've said before, there are worse places to live than the UK, but afaiac, there's a good fifty or sixty where I would be considerably happier to spend the rest of my days...


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

My neighbour works for an assylum seekers support network charity and we have got to know some of the people in that group through them. 

I had one friend from khazakstan (Im so sorry if thats spelt incorrectly) who has just jumped a boat to somewhere else as he was so disullusioned with the violence and unsafe nature of where he was housed in england. He just up and left. Left the keys to the place, alottment, his bike and most of his clothes and left.

I mean, this guy was a refugee ffs....was in the bosnian war and he felt unsafe???
(he lived in an area in liverpool btw)

ETA I agree, the OP DID ask


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> You are not prepared to say in your profile where in Spain you live, but I guess what you say about Spanish neighbours relates to YOU. Understand Spanish? Oh yes we do and only yesterday we were stopped by one of the local policemen who said how great it was to have us there because we greet them all (the villagers as well as the policeman himself) with open arms, warmth and generosity the same as they do to us.
> 
> I guess from your tone that you are still quite young and have not seen the changes that many of us have seen in UK so therefore you are not as well qualified to talk. In any case if UK is so wonderful why are you in Spain? You sound just like those ghastly Yorkshire people who go on and on about how wonderful Yorkshire is while they are living a hundred miles or so away from it!
> 
> ...


I am in the North of Spain, in Asturias where there are very few Brits.

But I was NOT referring my post to YOU directly. There are many Brits on a forum who at any chance moan about the UK and immigration. 

My post was pointing out is that Spain is not welcoming the influx of immigrants either. And many Brits who live abroad often live in an area where they are not fully aware of what is going on. They live in their own little "paradise". 

I have heard on many spanish TV about the immigrants coming to Spain and taking jobs, changing their country, not speaking Spanish, not integrating and using their resources. 

What I have noticed is that Brits are top of the list to complain about their home country..no other nation is quite as keen to do it. 

I for one, have a healthy appreciation for the UK and Spain. And I am happy to live in either. Both have good points and bad. And BOTH are undergoing drastic 
changes to their social and economic structure. 

And as a last note - I think that when you do respond to a post, you ought to be less personal and rude.


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

Northern Lass, why are you in a country where you feel unwelcome?


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

temporary said:


> Northern Lass, why are you in a country where you feel unwelcome?


For my children to learn another language and experience another country. 

I don't personally feel unwelcome in the North but when I was down South, I did feel unwelcome.

We came before the immigration problem got so out of control and the recession.


NOW :focus:


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

NorthernLass said:


> For my children to learn another language and experience another country.
> 
> I don't personally feel unwelcome in the North but when I was down South, I did feel unwelcome.
> 
> ...


There is NO "immigration problem" here because we don't try to keep apart but join with the locals so we are not so much "expat immigrants" as "new Spanish" likewise there is not so much of a recession here!


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

tbh I havent noticed the recession in UK either..Ive been very lucky and have even had 2 work permits in the past 10 years


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

baldilocks said:


> BUT what part of Spain are you talking about? I suspect, since you refer to 'people coming here since the 70s' you are referring to the sun, sea, sand and sangria mob who have done and are still doing their best to turn Spain and its costas into thelikes of Blackpool or Skeggy or Sarfend, but in the sun. So of course it is different!
> .



No, no I'm not talking about them at all, and not sure why you would think that. All of Span has changed ... even Benidorm  Look at pictures of Benidorm in the 60's and then look at it today. Look along the coasts anywhere, and even inland

But you are missing my point. Things in Britain are different to what they were in the 60's, and things in the USA are different, in Spain also. I just think its strange that someone said Britain isn't what it used to be .... because as I say thats just progress all over the world.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Stravinsky said:


> No, no I'm not talking about them at all, and not sure why you would think that. All of Span has changed ... even Benidorm  Look at pictures of Benidorm in the 60's and then look at it today. Look along the coasts anywhere, and even inland
> 
> But you are missing my point. Things in Britain are different to what they were in the 60's, and things in the USA are different, in Spain also. I just think its strange that someone said Britain isn't what it used to be .... because as I say thats just progress all over the world.



Everywhere has changed, thats life! But amongst all that change, Britain in general has lost its "great" and its people seem to have lost respect - not only for each other and their surroundings, but for themselves. Thats not to say that some things have changed for the better, its just difficult to see or appreciate that sometimes!
Jo xxxx


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

I never knew britain of old. I see the uk as it comes and as a person who has moved here with no previous knowledge or expectation. I think thats the kind of view the OP would have been after?


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

jojo said:


> Everywhere has changed, thats life! But amongst all that change, Britain in general has lost its "great" and its people seem to have lost respect - not only for each other and their surroundings, but for themselves. Thats not to say that some things have changed for the better, its just difficult to see or appreciate that sometimes!
> Jo xxxx


Depends where you lived Jo. Where I lived, no problem and certainly no experience of what people here have discussed. I lived in Birmingham for 25 odd years and never saw the acts of violence that get described so often. 



Britain is, and always has been, a progressive nation ... so its bound to change faster than other less progressive countries. As for Spain ... you watch over the next 10 years


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

werent there race riots in birmingham?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

True, some things change for the better but in the last 30 years in the UK it has been hard to find those changes among the many changes for the worse. For example our sporting abilities have been deteriorating, in part because, under Maggie (Sorry Jaz) local authorities were encouraged to sell off school playing fields also in part because under socialist ideals the competition was taken out of growing up so that the mediocre was considered acceptable. 

Family values have deteriorated with less and less respect accorded by the young for their parents and other people in general. Parents have tended to go towards buying their kids the latest gizmo for birthdays and Christmas so kids end up expecting to have the newest and latest in everything even in adult life. Because kids have all these electronic toys, they no longer seem to be able to use their imagination to create their own amusement (other than beating up others who are less fortunate and filming the horrific consequences on their mobile phones for the amusement of themselves and other sickos). When I was young an old shoebox was a valued toy (garage for dinky toys, doll's bed, etc) nowadays it is just more trash.

Where we are in Spain we still see respect especially within the family and also towards others outside the family. There is virtually no vandalism because families are so interrelated that your misdeeds will get back to your parents before you do and the chances are that whatever you vandalise belongs to one of your relatives. If we go out to lunch on a Sunday (a rare treat) there will be complete family groups from great-great grandma down to the babes in arms sitting down to a meal and every child will be well behaved; often the children will come over and greet us with a welcome from the family and both our party and theirs will raise a glass in a toast. I have never ever seen that sort of thing in UK between complete strangers.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2010)

Stravinsky said:


> Things in Britain are different to what they were in the 60's, and things in the USA are different, in Spain also. I just think its strange that someone said Britain isn't what it used to be .... because as I say thats just progress all over the world.


Nothing particularly strange about that, because the poster was clearly implying that things have changed for the worse.

Obviously things evolve wherever you are in the world, that goes without saying. That's one reason why, after many years mainly in France, having seen the country reluctantly dragged down the American/British road even if complaining vociferously (look after number 1, borrow and party towards consumerist oblivion), I now prefer to spend as much time as possible in SE Asia. It will probably end up the same way eventually, but has a way to go yet.

Respect, simplicity, family and community life, still mean something in some parts of the world. The West has become too rich for its own good. The last generation or so thinks the world owes it a living, and most kids these days couldn't change a light bulb, wouldn't recognise something edible unless it came cellophane-wrapped, and think the sole meaning of 'consideration' is payment given in exchange for a service rendered.

I remember when consideration for others, deference to our elders, were standard behaviour in the UK, and they are still key to maintaining social harmony the most distance you put between yourself and Anglo-Saxon territory. Fast dying out though, sadly.


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

I find the comparing of yester-year, just proves that the world is fast paced and things change far faster than what we want.

We all long for the days of when life was simpler and we look around and see alot of the changes for the worst. 

But ALL countries are feeling the effects of materialism, selfishness and greed in one way or another.

However, there are many individuals and families who value each other. Many parents who have brought up their children well and contribute positively to society. Many of my friends too..they work hard and have lovely children who do well at school and are not disrespectful.

So when you make sweeping statements about Britain and its people, you fail to acknowledge this fact.

True, parts of the UK have serious social problems, but not everywhere. In my hometown, you only have to walk down to the shops and you will end up stopping and chatting to loads of people you know. The old fashioned values are still around!

For my part, I bring up my children not to value material things..they have nintendos and enjoy them, but they love it better being in the park or on their bikes and scooters. We make time as a family to do things together. We are Brits and this is what most modern families are like....


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

temporary said:


> werent there race riots in birmingham?


There are race riots everywhere, but the ones you are thinking of were in one particular area I think


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

NorthernLass said:


> I find the comparing of yester-year, just proves that the world is fast paced and things change far faster than what we want.
> 
> We all long for the days of when life was simpler and we look around and see alot of the changes for the worst.
> 
> ...


I tend to agree with you. There is a perception that Britain has become a less caring, more selfish, more violent society, and there is plenty of statistics, anecdotal evidence and people's experience to support it. But you can also say at the same time that there are parts of the country, districts within a city and individual households where the virtue of care, respect and courtesy is still very much alive, parents who try and succeed in bringing up their children according to a moral code, schools where there is high expectation of good behaviour and succeed in getting it from vast majority of pupils (often regardless of their social backgrounds) and communities where people really care for one another. Often a common belief and shared values contribute to this - such as people bound by a common faith, ethnicity and cultural identity. People who have a strong sense of belonging, instead of becoming introspective and exclusive, then go on to share their gifts generously and become beacons of hope. There are unsung heroes in every community. They don't make the headlines, but quietly go about their business with unselfish dedication. 
I can understand why people have left UK and they all have good reasons for doing so, and I respect them. If they have then found a lifestyle to their liking in another country, I say bless them. But there are others who are happy to stay in UK, not because it's a perfect society (nowhere in the world is), but there is enough goodness, decency, friendship and love in their lives, which outweighs any negative factors and experiences.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

frogblogger said:


> Nothing particularly strange about that, because the poster was clearly implying that things have changed for the worse.
> 
> Obviously things evolve wherever you are in the world, that goes without saying. That's one reason why, after more than two decades mainly in France, having seen the country reluctantly dragged down the American/British road even if complaining vociferously (look after number 1, borrow and party towards consumerist oblivion), I now prefer to spend as much time as possible in SE Asia. It will probably end up the same way eventually, but has a way to go yet.
> 
> ...


Hear! Hear!


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

Well I dont know. Im sorry to say I came here 11 years ago or so with open eyes and an open mind and when I leave I wont be taking a good impression home with me.

ETA that sounds really negative, Im sorry. I do have some positive things to take back too  but I dont want my child reared here.


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## mike_smith (Feb 13, 2010)

After having lived in six countries, I came to the conclusion that life really is what you make it and what you choose to see. Obviously an exception would be if you were living somewhere at the extreme ends of the scale, such as in a street of millionaires or a terrible council estate, but I think in general there isn't that much to separate countries if you have a decent set of friends and/or family around.

Many Brits I talk to look upon Australia with rose-tinted glasses, but there were just as many Australian friends and family back home who looked upon my move to the UK with the same overly optimistic perspective. Ultimately, I saw huge amounts of crime and deprivation in Australia and I see less here, but that is because I rarely have cause to go through those sorts of areas. In the same way, I can understand why people who have lived in less desirable areas in the UK look to a 'safe' suburban life in Australia as a dream. I can bet many of these people never go to the dodgy areas of cities like Sydney and Melbourne.

It doesn't mean there is particularly more crime, political correctness, illegal immigration, or [insert complaint here] in either country, just that people's own experience and outlook affects their perception of life.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

I think that no matter where from or where to, if people choose to leave one country (especially the country of their birth) and move to another there has to be a reason which may, when it comes down to it, be one of personal perception and preference. 

The big mistake is to do insufficient research into the new destination and end up jumping from the frying pan into the fire!


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## mike_smith (Feb 13, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> I think that no matter where from or where to, if people choose to leave one country (especially the country of their birth) and move to another there has to be a reason which may, when it comes down to it, be one of personal perception and preference.
> 
> The big mistake is to do insufficient research into the new destination and end up jumping from the frying pan into the fire!


Well said! I completely agree, there is little more disheartening than that sickening realisation that one has been blinded by mere impression rather than reality.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

baldilocks said:


> I think that no matter where from or where to, if people choose to leave one country (especially the country of their birth) and move to another there has to be a reason which may, when it comes down to it, be one of personal perception and preference.
> 
> The big mistake is to do insufficient research into the new destination and end up jumping from the frying pan into the fire!


Gor Blimey Guvner! I fear I agree with you 

But there IS always a difference

There are those (that I see every day on forums) that decide that the UK is horrible because they are personally having a bad time of it and THINK that they can move to a new country and everything will be wonderful for them. They are running away. They don't plan, and often it is a disaster.

Then there are those that are quite happy with the UK but decide to try something different in their life. They do the research, they work hard at planning, and off they go.

When you actually take the time to analyse the UK, bearing in mind that all countries have their problems and challenges, the UK really is not such a bad place. There are problems. There are challenges, but they are nothing to what you face when you move to a foreign country with rules you don't understand and administrators that don't speak your language. I know. I did it!

So I would only say to those that take delight in rubbishing the UK ...... take a very deep look at what the UK is. What it stands for, and consider all the positives there are to the country that ... well ... you were bought up in and on many occasions actually gave you what you needed to start your new life abroad.


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

I think that can apply that idea, you could argue maybe not as much for a change from australia to uk (doing your research). Maybe some do go in blind or overly optimistic and are burnt in that way,

but I also think you cant discount an impression and opinion built up over many years of being somewhere.

I live in a fairly affluent area but still am aware of social problems, the same as I am fully aware of australia's problems. I warn my husband that it certainly isnt the land of milk and honey and that he will have to work at it, the same as I have had to.

I have worked at it, blended, formed friendships, lived a life and been positive, happy and succesful but still have been able to formulate a certain opinion about the land and its people.


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

mind you I had a friend who was a slow talking surfer from noosa who got an nhs job in birmingham and got such a shock he left within 3 months lol


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## mike_smith (Feb 13, 2010)

temporary said:


> but I also think you cant discount an impression and opinion built up over many years of being somewhere.
> 
> I live in a fairly affluent area but still am aware of social problems, the same as I am fully aware of australia's problems. I warn my husband that it certainly isnt the land of milk and honey and that he will have to work at it, the same as I have had to.
> 
> I have worked at it, blended, formed friendships, lived a life and been positive, happy and succesful but still have been able to formulate a certain opinion about the land and its people.


Yes, ultimately I think you're right. I suppose I was being a little idealistic (and unrealistic) when I put many people's problems down to personal perception alone!

As you say, even if you have completely the right attitude and you dive into things with a positive outlook, as it sounds like you have, then somebody may decide that a place just isn't for them. And whether a country is 'right' for you or not probably ends up being a mixture of complete perception and the degree to which your personality/upbringing/values accord with that society. If that even makes any sense...


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## serendipity700 (Dec 18, 2009)

All places change. It is up to the individual as to what type of place they want to live. Some ppl like busy areas, some like rural. everyone wants to complain about there government when all governments are greedy and corrupt. All countries have areas where ppl aren't that friendly or sociable. My home country of America was lovely when I was a kid. Your kids could play outside all day and you didn't have to worry. Neighbors were friendly and ppl helped each other out. Now most places in most countries are me,me,me. There is crime everywhere. No matter where u live. If you choose to step out your door being disenchanted and pick all the negative things out instead of the positive that is how you will veiw a place. I live in the UK and have lovely friends here. I enjoy having lots of things to do and place to go that are all a short drive away. Life is no more expensive here then it is in America. I love my home country, but I love it here in the UK too. Because I choose to see the positives as much as I can. And the weather her is not always cold and rainy. As a matter of fact I am enjoying a lovely sunny day today.


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## JerryH (Apr 18, 2010)

Joppa said:


> Let me put a contrary view.
> Have lived in several other countries in the world. Currently live in England and am happy to stay, even though emigrating has crossed my mind.
> Reasons why England is fine for me include:
> Have family, friends and social life here.
> ...


Bravo.

I've lived around the world, though am a Brit, and am planning on returning for just about all of these reasons.

Let alone the sense of humour that is so devoid in other places !


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

I am interested by the welcoming bit

as an immigrant I have never felt especially welcome here in britain if Im honest


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## JerryH (Apr 18, 2010)

temporary said:


> I am interested by the welcoming bit
> 
> as an immigrant I have never felt especially welcome here in britain if Im honest


Irrespective of where you are, immigrants are always going to be "outsiders".

In a lot of places in the UK there are too many people as it is, so that the ones already there get annoyed at more and more people pouring in is understandable.


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

JerryH said:


> Irrespective of where you are, immigrants are always going to be "outsiders".
> 
> In a lot of places in the UK there are too many people as it is, so that the ones already there get annoyed at more and more people pouring in is understandable.


i do agree


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## JerryH (Apr 18, 2010)

temporary said:


> i do agree


I live in Vancouver BC at the moment, though I was born in Ireland to an English family and grew up there and in Ghana before moving to where the rest of the family is from in souther England.

Have travelled lots and lived in various places around the world, and thought I'd check out this place as it's always going on about how multicultural and accepting it is. 

The irony of the social divisions that are sustained by individuals try to hold on to their identity is funny to the point of being sad.

So many people here identify as being Irish or English as they drank a Guinness once or like Man United etc or their great great grandfather moved here...... though have never been to the country, let alone understand it's values and history, it's shocking.

............ and they are the ones that treat "outsiders" so differently.

Hence why I'm going to move back to Europe ....... can't wait to get back to a decent beer either !


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## Dannysigma (Feb 22, 2009)

To try to give a balanced view:

I have lived in most parts of England, North, middle and South as well as Wales. I chose to leave 8 months ago because:

-Much as I love London, it was too expensive - and I don't just mean basic cost of living - if you want to make the most out of what it has to offer, you have to factor in transport, entry fees/tickets etc.
-The weather was getting seriously depressing
-There was so much of the world I wanted to see. Although, being a teacher, I get long holidays, I couldn't always afford to use them to go long distance. I figured that 2 or 3 years in different places would allow me to visit all the nearby places as well.
-Teaching - you can do it almost anywhere, so it seemed to make sense to use that option. Not particularly interested in furthering a career or having kids, so I though, what the hell.
-Other downsides: I wouldn't live outside London now and crime in London is getting bad.
-I have a lot of friends who have moved from the UK to Australia, and for most of them the main reason is not that they think Oz is better, it's just that they fancied a change.


On the other hand, I miss:

-Pubs
-Culture
-History (London to Dubai was a bit of a shock in that respect!)
-Family
-Green countryside nearby
-And as for the UK not being as good as it used to be - that is true in many respects, but it is so much better in others: I remember the 70s and 80s as being a time of strikes, acceptable racism and sexism, police brutality and so on. Not to mention awful fashion.



Like anything, what you get out of where you live is very much up to you. I used to wonder in London about the Australian expats in Shepherds Bush and Earls Court who only ever hung out with other Australians and only ever drank in Australian themed bars, but I guess that's par for the course for a great many British expats in other parts of the world.

I am very pleased that I made the decision to move away from the UK, but I am also really looking forward to going back for a month in the summer. And I know that when my travels are over, the UK is where I will end up!


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## JerryH (Apr 18, 2010)

Dannysigma said:


> ..........And I know that when my travels are over, the UK is where I will end up!


Much the same here


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2010)

Yes it's hard not to end up giving an exaggerated, black and white picture in a discussion like this, but ref. Danny's points:

_Pubs_

Not what they used to be... theme bars, bouncers on the doors, binge drinking... what's that all about. 

_Culture_

Ok, but that's not really exclusive to the UK. 

_History (London to Dubai was a bit of a shock in that respect!)_

Can't be much fun in the Gulf. In so many other places you get as much history and culture as you can handle. 

_Family_

Yes being far away from family can be a problem (or a huge plus!) for some. But it's not a factor that makes the UK special; wherever we're from, we usually leave people behind.

_Green countryside nearby_

Can see your problem in the Gulf. Not a factor in France, or in Thailand's jungles where I was until the end of last year!

_And as for the UK not being as good as it used to be - that is true in many respects, but it is so much better in others: I remember the 70s and 80s as being a time of strikes, acceptable racism and sexism, police brutality and so on. Not to mention awful fashion._

Good points, although personally in the 70s and 80s I didn't come across as much discrimination as is portrayed on the box, and the SPG didn't last long. And waddya mean, awful fashion?! What's wrong with flares, platform shoes, cheesecloth skin-tight shirts unbuttoned to the waist... and mini/micro skirts stayed around for a while too


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## muyuu (Nov 30, 2009)

I've lived in a number of countries, and I quite like it here in the UK.

From the points I've read in here, both positive and negative:
-expensive
It is expensive if you are a fickle consumer, and particularly in the London area. But it's quite cheap for electronics, furniture, and a number of things - except compared to the USA, I guess. Mainland Europe is more expensive with the current exchange rates, including Spain. You're just comparing the wrong things.

OK, booze and cigarrettes are very expensive in the UK. I don't care too much since I neither smoke or drink. Is this a significant expense for anyone at the end of the month?

Surely you're not comparing London to small coastal villages in other countries? because that would be apples to oranges.

-pubs
I guess it depends on what do you like. Certainly they're different.

-Culture
Again, this largely depends on where you're heading, but UK is clearly above average in this regard. 

-History
Similar as culture. Also good.

-family values, culture
I think most "developed" countries are in a similar state of affairs, except maybe Japan. In most first world countries, it will cost you a lot of money to keep your kids away from mediocrity and from the lack of most basic values in "modern" societies. Not a factor for me at this point.

-overcrowding
Seriously. One would move out of a big city for this reason, but from the UK?? sounds extremely short-sighted to me, as if there weren't small villages in the UK, or completely deserted areas. For most intents and purposes, a deserted area of 100 square miles is as good as one of 1000 square miles.

-miserable weather
It's far worse in Russia  . I guess it's relative, of course you can always find a better place than the UK if you like sunny weather, but then again travelling is cheap nowadays and one can escape a fortnight or two without breaking the bank. Summer is fine.

-nanny state, taxes
Yes... a problem. Not exclusive to the UK, mind you, but I wish taxes weren't so high here and public transportation wasn't so poor. It's not imposible to fix. The thing is most britons go to places that are no better in this respect, like France, Spain or Australia.

-not as good as it used to be
Can't really judge about this. I guess most people older than 30 think similarly about their own country. Not being 20 anymore may be a factor in this. Nostalgia isn't what it used to be and all that.

Overall, I think the UK is great and I think people older than 25 are lovely and polite compared to most places. Can't share the negativity.


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## Dannysigma (Feb 22, 2009)

frogblogger said:


> Yes it's hard not to end up giving an exaggerated, black and white picture in a discussion like this, but ref. Danny's points:
> 
> _Pubs_
> 
> ...


To be honest, I wasn't trying to make a case for these points in any way making the UK special - as I said, it was just the things I personally miss.



> _And as for the UK not being as good as it used to be - that is true in many respects, but it is so much better in others: I remember the 70s and 80s as being a time of strikes, acceptable racism and sexism, police brutality and so on. Not to mention awful fashion._
> 
> Good points, although personally in the 70s and 80s I didn't come across as much discrimination as is portrayed on the box, and the SPG didn't last long. And waddya mean, awful fashion?! What's wrong with flares, platform shoes, cheesecloth skin-tight shirts unbuttoned to the waist... and mini/micro skirts stayed around for a while too


I guess it depends where you were for much of this time - al I can say is that discrimination was a lot worse than shown on the TV in Stoke-on-Trent (it's still a hotbed of BNP activity) - I guess Stokies need to feel superior to somebody.

And I was thinking more of the tragic 80s fashions. Which, unfortunately, seem to be making something of a comeback 

And, for many of the reasons you state, Thailand is high on my list of posibilities once I am done in Dubai. Though the teaching jobs in Vietnam tend to be better paid.


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2010)

Dannysigma said:


> I guess it depends where you were for much of this time - al I can say is that discrimination was a lot worse than shown on the TV in Stoke-on-Trent (it's still a hotbed of BNP activity) - I guess Stokies need to feel superior to somebody.
> 
> And I was thinking more of the tragic 80s fashions. Which, unfortunately, seem to be making something of a comeback
> 
> And, for many of the reasons you state, Thailand is high on my list of posibilities once I am done in Dubai. Though the teaching jobs in Vietnam tend to be better paid.


From North Yorks, I'd forgotten the pitched battles at Elland Road when the likes of Man U came to play, skinheads (_"what you looking at mate?"_) etc... I learned to run very fast, and you're right, life was certainly not perfect back then. No idea how it compares now though.

As for what to wear, I've been out of the mainstream too long, living between an isolated farm in France and Thailand. No idea what's fashionable any more.

OT - Yes Thailand teaching jobs pay from as low as £500 a month up to nearly £2,000 (very rare), depending on speciality etc. Some expats in Thailand are moving to Vietnam - cheaper, without the same residence visa restrictions and other hassles.


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## Dee.Bee (Apr 21, 2010)

jojo said:


> The reasons I left the UK, in no particular order are
> 
> Lack of Space
> too full, too many people in such a country
> ...


I was born in the UK, and traveled lots but now having reached my mid 30's I really want to leave the UK for almost exactly every single reason you've stated above.

I'm in greater London and I hardly ever go out because the shear amount of travel involved to go out for an evening just overwhelms me.

I have to first go online and check the state of the trains and then plan how long I can stay before the last train home finishes.


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

Dee.Bee said:


> I was born in the UK, and traveled lots but now having reached my mid 30's I really want to leave the UK for almost exactly every single reason you've stated above.
> 
> I'm in greater London and I hardly ever go out because the shear amount of travel involved to go out for an evening just overwhelms me.
> 
> I have to first go online and check the state of the trains and then plan how long I can stay before the last train home finishes.


Yes I too used to hate the travelling in London/Herts too !! 

However, it's not a good idea to leave because of things you don't like about a place, you have to leave because you want to experience something different..escaping problems with the UK is not the answer...

You are only going to move to a country with a different set of problems...No where is perfect !


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## zeebo (Nov 15, 2009)

Now i have seen "the other side" I think that anyone who is fanatical (pro/against) has some personal problen with a country. The Uk has many good points and bad. I feel that if you stay out of the big citys it is better. I think life is expensive and generally 'getting' worse everywhere... Who has actually found a place where it is cheaper than 10 years ago and the people are more friendly and welcoming? In a time of global recession people turn inwards and look for somone to blame. 

Its pretty obvious the world is ending if you ask me... lol


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## All good (Feb 27, 2010)

*....*



NorthernLass said:


> Yes I too used to hate the travelling in London/Herts too !!
> 
> However, it's not a good idea to leave because of things you don't like about a place, you have to leave because you want to experience something different..escaping problems with the UK is not the answer...
> 
> You are only going to move to a country with a different set of problems...No where is perfect !


That is 100% correct. Even if you live in what may be considered the best cities in the world, you are going to have problems and find many things you don't like.

Britain is fine, and is on par with any other 1st world country where you have access to decent health care, santisation, decent ameneties and a relatively safe way of life.

I can't wait to go to London.I only play to live there or 3-4 years, but I will make the most of it while I am there. I will try to concerntrate on the positives rather than any negatives, that's all anyone can do when trying a new way of life.


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## Green man (Apr 19, 2010)

Dee.Bee said:


> I was born in the UK, and traveled lots but now having reached my mid 30's I really want to leave the UK for almost exactly every single reason you've stated above.
> 
> I'm in greater London and I hardly ever go out because the shear amount of travel involved to go out for an evening just overwhelms me.
> 
> I have to first go online and check the state of the trains and then plan how long I can stay before the last train home finishes.


The fact that you can plan your travel online means that you have reliable public transport that works and is properly scheduled and living in London means you can visit a million fantastic intersting places not to mention Europe, just minutes away! Wow, I wish I had your overwhelming problems.:confused2:


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## downunderoutwest (Apr 24, 2010)

I have no problem with the UK - it has its good points and bad points like anywhere else. What I would say is that it is good to try living somewhere else for a while. You quickly discover that nowhere is perfect but that making the move can be an exciting adventure. For every Brit in Oz who went there to escape the UK you'll find as many (like us) who just got an opportunity and took it. I'd say if you're thinking about the UK, go for it - just choose where exactly you live carefully!


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## Kady (May 1, 2010)

tackle said:


> unfortunately im still in the uk but looking to change that asap......my reasons for going are as follows:
> CRIME: stupidly high crime rates, used to live in london where its horrendous, but now on the south kent coast, its better but far from perfect.
> 
> GOVERNMENT: while im aware there's no such thing as an honest politician, the lies, bs & hypocrisy pedalled by this government of "spin" i think far exceed that of previous governments, "new labour" unfortunately has all the worst qualities of both old labour & the conservatives & unfortunately the damage they have done will probably never be reversed.
> ...


The grass is always greener somewhere else I guess but if you are planning on moving to the US, please don't think that it is much better. The only thing I can say is, once the US gets their hooks in you, you are theirs for life. It's really not much better here (of course depends on where you go to live in the US) than for all your reasons for leaving the UK.


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## DavidO (May 3, 2010)

*A much-needed contrarian view...*

I just joined this forum because I was so eager to chime in on this debate! You desperately need another contrarian, non-British view on this.

First, don't listen just to the Brits. You would think a country's own people would be the best source of info - straight from the horse's mouth, as they say - but not in this case. I've never seen a people who moan more about their own country and circumstances than the Brits (and usually it's one of the things I love about them... they'll never give you the sort of "love it or leave it" crap that you can get from Americans! 

I'm a 55 year old American dividing my life between southern Spain and southern England with my German wife. I've lived in Spain, Germany and the U.K. since the age of 18 so I think I have a bit of experience and perspective.

The issues that most of the members here are moaning about are found in every developed country, including your own Australia. I actually think that the problems coming out of greed, selfishness and social breakdown are the most advanced in my country, the USA. But people still flock there from all corners of the globe. Peace and tranquility in Thailand? Give me a break!

Spain, Italy, Portugal, Canary Islands... the Latin/Mediterranean countries? Many naive people (including some of the expats living in these regions) still spout a lot of nonsense about their laid-back culture, slower pace of life and relative safety. I have 38 years of experiece in Spain and extensive travel throughout the Med and I can tell you that it hasn't been like that since 1975.

Spain currently has massive unemployment, a crime wave along with infiltration by Eastern European, African and local organized crime, an out of control drugs problem and more social problems brewing than the U.K. Of particular interest to the expat, governments remain corrupt with a legal system in which you against a local will always lose. I've seen these things go on for decades. You can say similar things about the other Latin countries.

Don't get me wrong. I love Spain and I own a home there. I accept it for what it is but I'm not living with blinkers on.

Now how about the U.K.? Sure, every problem mentioned so far exists. But everyone of them is found in every other country, sometimes in far worse forms. At least in the U.K. I feel relatively protected by a fair system of law. There are abuses in every system but I'll pick the U.K. any time if I have to face serious legal problems.

Too bad about the weather. But I've always believed that anyone for whom the weather is the most important thing in life is sorely missing something. Britain has more culture, history, and attractions than any country on earth, regardless of size. Maybe _because_ of the weather Britain punches way above its weight in arts, music, design, engineering and many many more fields.

And when the weather is good in Britain - like a great English summer - it's truly, truly the most beautiful place.

Expensive? In many instances, yes. But in others not so much and a lot depends on your lifestyle. I've been shocked on visits to my native California in recent years to see everyday salad tomatoes for $1 each. Important costs of living like housing on the coast of California are far more than the English equivalent. And the English value for money, especially in food and accommodation, beats anything America can offer.

So even the cost of living argument has holes in it. Britain has enormous problems, like in every country, but enormous appeal, far more than most countries can offer. :clap2:


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Hi DavidO Welcome to the debate.

Having been born and bred in England (in particular, in a village in Essex almost as far east in that county as it is possible to go - ½ mile from the sea wall) from wartime until fairly recently, I have seen the nature of people change from warm, friendly generous and helpful to selfish, grabbing and generally unsociable.

Yes, Spain has some of the problems that you mention as do many other countries, BUT and it is a big BUT, it depends where in Spain you are and where you go. Here in this village in the mountains of the Sierra Sur de Jaén, crime and drugs are negligible, and there are to be found all those qualities in people that I remember from my childhood nearly 70 years ago. I have lived in other countries but this is the best I have found. I feel safe and secure here but not back in UK.


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## Guest (May 3, 2010)

DavidO said:


> Peace and tranquility in Thailand? Give me a break!


You've lived in Thailand? Ah no, you haven't. I have. I suppose you think a few news items filmed in the tiny area of Bangkok where there are some demos grants you an understanding of life in the Land of Smiles?

Forgive me if I take the remainder of your post with a bucket-sized pinch of salt as a result.

You are welcome to your alternative views, but a different perspective does not entitle you to make categorical pronouncements about the allegedly 'mistaken' views of the Brits. Those opinions are based on insights obtained by people born and bred in the country concerned, and in certain cases compared with the experience of living over a very long period abroad. 

Those opinions are worth at least as much as your own, and given your comments about Thailand, I would suspect more in some respects.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

personally I think that different people want and find different things. So really its all a completely individual choice and viewpoint that cant be shared!

Jo xxx


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## Guest (May 4, 2010)

Quite. But it does help if you've lived in the country in the first place, before making pronouncements about what it's like there!


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## DavidO (May 3, 2010)

*Thailand, Spain and all that's green...*

I'm glad to see that my comments have stirred up some response. This is (or should be) a debate and I'm always willing to accept the views of others and even adjust my own accordingly. Nobody should take any of this personally.

Frogblogger, you're right that I made my pronouncements about Thailand based on news reports. I've never lived there and didn't imply otherwise. I do know expats in Thailand that confirm your views about peace and tranquility.

But my point is valid. Baldilocks is spot on when he points out that you can find good and bad areas in every part of the world. I pity the person who winds up in Bangkok based on reports from people in peaceful villages. And what if the trouble spreads? The fact is that, even though most of the country remains unaffected, Thailand is unstabile and the future is unpredictable. So to give it a blanket label of peace and tranquility is not quite right either. There are always caveats.

It's too bad that your native area of Essex has been so degraded, Baldilocks. This reminds me of where I spent the second half of my childhood in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada in California. It was an incredible place to grow up, so lovely in fact that people flooded in from the valleys... and haven't stopped. Now there's a McDonalds on every junction, ugly strip malls in every village and, as you would expect, crime is out of control. The people are now rude, selfish and aggressive.

But you can still find small-town America. It's not all ruined. And you can still find old-fashioned, village life in England. I don't know what's happened in Essex (maybe too many locals have abandoned it for Spain :eyebrows: ) but my wife and I easily found the marvellous village of Beer in Devon. In addition to being incredibly beautiful, the people in Beer are very close to what many British expats so nostalgically lament as being lost. And Beer is surely not the only village in Britain to be overlooked by hordes of hooded thugs.

You can find Beers in every country including Spain and the others I criticized. My comments were not so much to put them down but to pull Britain up. Being down on their country seems to be part of the British national character. Like I said before, I find it refreshing compared to American attitudes but others need to have another view.

I grant that my comments on Thailand were off the mark (but with a valid purpose as I've explained) but I have a 38 year history with Spain and I feel very qualified to comment on it. I even experienced the last three years of the Franco regime (and, no, I'm not one of those who think that a dictator is what they need to sort them out!).

But if ever there were a place in which you could moan about a fall from grace it's in Spain. Nobody wants to remain poor and backward but Spain's rise to modernity has come at a big cost. Coming from California where you get used to a climate of aggression, Spain was a wonder. I've never seen such friendly, helpful and spirited people. Best of all, it was authentic.

The Spanish are still, by and large, fantastic people and, you're right, you can still find many old-fashioned towns and villages that are pretty much as they used to be. Even my town of Estepona, a highly developed, large town in a major holiday area, is lovely with unique and helpful people.

But then you have all the negative things I mentioned before (and they look especially bad when you consider what Spain used to be like). One thing I'm noticing with worry is that the youth is becoming a lot more haughty and even aggressive. The family used to be so important that there was no ageism. But now the youth are getting this "chip on the shoulder" look so common in America and the U.K.

One of the things that most bothers me about Spain as an expat is that you'll forever be the foreigner. I speak fluent (and local) Spanish and I've been around a lot longer than the young punks who seem to resent my presence. But I could never be accepted as a local. I have a German friend who married a Spaniard 35 years ago, speaks like a local and has raised 3 Spanish kids and she is still labeled and treated like a foreigner. She says it really hurts at times.

This is part of the expat baggage and it's hard to escape it anywhere. Some people actually enjoy it, being the "different" one. It can be a type of individuality (especially if you don't have a lot of it otherwise!). But this lack of acceptance is especially noticeable in "family-centred" cultures like Spain.

Even in Devon the people can be a bit stand-offish, moreso in small villages. But get into a cosmopolitan area of Britain and you have much greater opportunity to be accepted and take part in the community. Probably because of the "common" language and history of tolerance I find Britain the easiest place for an American expat.

I didn't mean to step on any toes here and baldilocks and frogblogger have both made very good points. It's important to remember that (almost) all places have lovely pockets where an expat can have a great life... and that even includes the U.K.!

I won't make any more negative comments about the places British expats like to go provided that you Brits stop condemning your entire country. Agreed?

Despite the weather (today it's beautiful on the south coast!) Britain still offers a lot of great things... even if it takes an expat Yank to enjoy them!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

DavidO said:


> Despite the weather (today it's beautiful on the south coast!) Britain still offers a lot of great things... even if it takes an expat Yank to enjoy them!


The south coast in England IMO is horrendous in any weather. Full of tired, dirty and worn out victoriana!!! Piers, ugly shabby buildings, the prom with pale green and rusting railings, tacky lights strung between the equally revolting lamposts, the stench of seaweed, the pepply beaches, brown sea, deck chairs...... and then of course the traffic jammed along the road running alongside all this YUK! Anywhere vaguely unspoilt or decent is either empty cos its so cold or full of grumpy people with knotted hankies on their heads and there trousers rolled up!

Thats my opinion of the south coast having lived there all my life (til now!)! But it may be someone elses heaven!!!

According to my husband who is there at the moment its 9c, sunnyish, but clouding over! He's stuck in a traffic jam on the A27 and not happy being there!

Jo xxx


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

DavidO said:


> I'm glad to see that my comments have stirred up some response. This is (or should be) a debate and I'm always willing to accept the views of others and even adjust my own accordingly. Nobody should take any of this personally.
> 
> Frogblogger, you're right that I made my pronouncements about Thailand based on news reports. I've never lived there and didn't imply otherwise. I do know expats in Thailand that confirm your views about peace and tranquility.
> 
> ...


Fantastic post..:clap2:...

The problem I think is that many Brits or expats live or lived in areas in Britain which were undesirable and then they judge ALL of Britain as what they are used to. 

I used to live in a lovely town in England - so I know that there are beautiful parts despite what other Brits say.


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## Guest (May 4, 2010)

Actually DavidO, those heading for Bangkok do not need your pity because unless you go for a stroll between police and demonstrator lines to snap a few unusual holiday photos, you're in no more danger than in any other city around the world. The confrontation is restricted to a small area of town, and everywhere else life is carrying on as normal. As a worldly-wise chap, I'm sure you are aware of the dangers of getting your news from the, erm, news.

The problem with your first post, and to an extent with the follow-up, is that a sizeable part of both was dedicated to criticising the alleged stereotypes presented by those who are less enamoured with the UK, and then what do you do? You immediately produce a succession of your own.

On top of this I take slight umbrage at your straw man misrepresentations of the stance of some of the detractors, who have never claimed anything other than that there is both good and bad wherever you go. We are simply saying that many things are not changing for the better in the UK, and that on balance, we have found parts of the world where the things we value are, in our opinions, taken more seriously.

When joining a new forum it helps to take a closer look at what people are really saying and not to jump to conclusions. Many of us are experienced expats, some of us having spent long periods abroad, and in a few cases, in several radically different cultures. (Most of Europe, North America and Oz/NZ counting as a single entity, in my opinion. It helps to have lived entirely amongst the indigenous population in a Moslem African and/or an Asian country, to know the real sense of culture shock).



> I won't make any more negative comments about the places British expats like to go provided that you Brits stop condemning your entire country. Agreed?


I'm sure you're familiar with the rich variety of sophisms that are dragged out in debate. This one of yours is an example of the classic loaded question. _ "So David, when did you stop beating your wife?",_ doubling up with a straw man.


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## DavidO (May 3, 2010)

frogblogger, I take your comments on board and I'm willing to admit some areas where I may have gone astray... particularly on the Thailand issue!

But my main criticisms were not aimed at the majority of reasonable people who recognize the good and bad in most places. I was responding to some pretty extreme views that were not at all objective. These are the ones condemning the U.K. as nothing but ****e.

Everyone's entitled to their personal views. I myself have an unobjective, extreme view of the USA but I don't mind when a more objective person jumps in and offers a more rounded view to someone interested in my native country.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

I have never said the the entire UK is (whatever your expletive was) just that where I was living was getting worse and worse and had got to the point where I was happier to walk away than stay. as Frogblogger says " We are simply saying that many things are not changing for the better in the UK, and that on balance, we have found parts of the world where the things we value are, in our opinions, taken more seriously." Here in Spain I find that the people who live around here still value those things and I and my family are really happy and content - we are not just popping out of our native lands on a whim and maybe thinking of going back sometime - my wife has been expat for some 25 years and my mother-in-law for 57 years


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## DavidO (May 3, 2010)

jojo said:


> The south coast in England IMO is horrendous in any weather. Full of tired, dirty and worn out victoriana!!! Piers, ugly shabby buildings, the prom with pale green and rusting railings, tacky lights strung between the equally revolting lamposts, the stench of seaweed, the pepply beaches, brown sea, deck chairs...... and then of course the traffic jammed along the road running alongside all this YUK! Anywhere vaguely unspoilt or decent is either empty cos its so cold or full of grumpy people with knotted hankies on their heads and there trousers rolled up!
> 
> Thats my opinion of the south coast having lived there all my life (til now!)! But it may be someone elses heaven!!!
> 
> ...


Jo, you're entitled to your opinion (and your memories) but this is really extreme! The coast of England covers thousands of miles. Some of it is like you describe but there are just as many gems among the rust.

I don't like pebble beaches either but have you been to Bournemouth with it's 7 miles of wide, golden sandy beaches? We have scores of seaside pubs and restaurants here that are now just as good and CHEAPER than the equivalent in Estepona!

If Bournemouth is too big for you there's Swanage on the other side. Beautiful sandy beaches again and more family oriented.

Just a short boat ride away is the Isle of White with more beautiful beaches and a way of life that many claim to be like the England of 50 years ago.

Further west are the many spectacular villages, coastline and beaches of Devon. Then Cornwall, whose coast rivals the best of the Med in the right circumstances.

Too bad about the weather! The number of truly comfortable days to enjoy England are far too few. On the other hand, I find July and August in Andalucia intolerable and I seem to recall an especially wet and miserable winter this past year.

And other aspects are not all one-sided either. The only sand on many of the Costa del Sol's beaches is trucked in! The beach outside my flat in Estepona is mostly pebble and too often covered in rubbish.

Still, the views are magnificent, the weather is (mostly) fantastic and I love it. I also love England!


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

DavidO said:


> The family used to be so important that there was no ageism. But now the youth are getting this "chip on the shoulder" look so common in America and the U.K.
> 
> One of the things that most bothers me about Spain as an expat is that you'll forever be the foreigner. I speak fluent (and local) Spanish and I've been around a lot longer than the young punks who seem to resent my presence. But I could never be accepted as a local. I have a German friend who married a Spaniard 35 years ago, speaks like a local and has raised 3 Spanish kids and she is still labeled and treated like a foreigner. She says it really hurts at times.


Because teens are teens wherever you go, DavidO!! 

Speaking about my particular part of Spain, I would have to say that I have never been treated as a "foreigner" or as a "guiri". But then maybe the Galicians, with their history of emigration covering many south american and European countries and having had a hell of a lot of them return now (the retornados) including those children of retornados raised abroad, maybe that makes them more forgiving? As a Brit myself, I can say hand on heart that they have nothing but good to say about the British and have lots of fond memories of life in the UK. 

I myself was born and raised in Kent - the so called "garden of England". Yes, there are still some beautiful areas to visit and live, but having family with children/teens still there I see a huge (and often shocking) difference in their attitudes, education - both compared to when I was at school there and compared to raising my children here amongst their peers. I'm not slagging off my home country by any stretch - I just know that here where I am now, there's more of a chance for my kids to enjoy their childhood, instead of being forced to grow up far too soon. Sure, there are still some bad influences around and it's never without its problems, but what place is? I think equally any comments you have made/seen here on the forum of Brits talking down the UK is just the usual generalisations made by an unsatisfactory life but particular to where they happened to be - the same can be said of Spain esp. regarding your comment on expats being treated as "foreigners" in Estepona.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Pubs? Beaches? In my book they equal yobboes, drunken louts who throw up all over the place and discard food remnants that attract vermin; louts who have made many seaside places in UK the rubbish they are today and, dare I say, are turning the costas in Spain into the same sort of thing. 

Bournemouth used to be quite nice but has now degenerated into an imitation of Sarfend. 

Essex, I have commented on previously - it has become the state it is in now primarily by immigration, partly from abroad but mostly by immigrants from London - the types who come out into the countryside in the summer "This is nice, George, let's buy a little place and retire here when the time comes" Then when they do, they turn the place into poor copies of the noisy rubbishy area they left behind then moan about it not being as quiet and peaceful as they remembered it and as for there being no buses every five minutes nor three supermarkets just around the corner, and the kids (immigrant ones mostly) who have nothing to do but commit vandalism....

No I'm glad I left and moved to an area where all the old values are still welcomed, respected and maintained. For example, when did you last see people in UK out sweeping and washing down the street in front of their and their neighbours' houses? That's what they do here and it is quite a contest to get out their before your neighbour does yours!


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## DavidO (May 3, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> Pubs? Beaches? In my book they equal yobboes, drunken louts who throw up all over the place and discard food remnants that attract vermin; louts who have made many seaside places in UK the rubbish they are today and, dare I say, are turning the costas in Spain into the same sort of thing.
> 
> Bournemouth used to be quite nice but has now degenerated into an imitation of Sarfend.


Yes, the things you describe can be a problem and when I see it I'm as disgusted as you are.

But do you think every U.K. beach and pub is like that? I don't know Sarfend (sounds like I'm lucky!) but the Bournemouth I know is not what you're describing for the most part. And I was just down there on the waterfront last weekend. All perfectly civilized.

I think the second part of your statement is illuminating... yes, I dare say this degeneration is happening on the Costas too. But I hope you're not implying that this is also the Brit's fault. Yeah, I know plenty of places where British louts behave like animals in Spain but now the local youth have started doing a very fine imitation on their own!


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## DavidO (May 3, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> No I'm glad I left and moved to an area where all the old values are still welcomed, respected and maintained. For example, when did you last see people in UK out sweeping and washing down the street in front of their and their neighbours' houses? That's what they do here and it is quite a contest to get out their before your neighbour does yours!


Yes, I'm very familiar and admirous of the custom of washing down the streets in front of your property in Spain. I never said I don't love Spain.

But you can hardly say that the whole of the U.K. is a garbage dump! And I see plenty of horribly littered places in Spain. Have you ever travelled in a car with a Spanish family? A lot of them still throw every piece of rubbish out the window, totally thoughtlessly! It's a completely different attitude. They wash the pavement but throw snot-filled tissues out the window wholesale... go figure!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Quote "And I was just down there on the waterfront last weekend. All perfectly civilized." 

But last weekend was not mid-summer and, as I understand it, the weather wasn't good enough to bring out the worst.


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## DavidO (May 3, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> Quote "And I was just down there on the waterfront last weekend. All perfectly civilized."
> 
> But last weekend was not mid-summer and, as I understand it, the weather wasn't good enough to bring out the worst.


But I spent a lot of time there last summer too! 

Let's just agree to disagree... I respect your views. We're not far apart really.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

DavidO said:


> But do you think every U.K. beach and pub is like that? I don't know Sarfend (sounds like I'm lucky!) but the Bournemouth I know is not what you're describing for the most part. And I was just down there on the waterfront last weekend. All perfectly civilized.


Parts of Bournmouth are pleasant, ugly and outdated, but pleasant! But for the most part its a very slightly upmarket version of most other beaches in England - grim! If the sun shone a little more, it would be a little better, but it doesnt and what you're left with is a dingy and miserable cold place that stinks of sea weed. The whole of the south coast I find horrendous! Cornwall is the only place, IMO that is half decent, but again you just dont get the sun very often

Jo xxx


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## Dannysigma (Feb 22, 2009)

jojo said:


> Parts of Bournmouth are pleasant, ugly and outdated, but pleasant! But for the most part its a very slightly upmarket version of most other beaches in England - grim! If the sun shone a little more, it would be a little better, but it doesnt and what you're left with is a dingy and miserable cold place that stinks of sea weed. The whole of the south coast I find horrendous! Cornwall is the only place, IMO that is half decent, but again you just dont get the sun very often
> 
> Jo xxx


Much of Devon is nice too. And the best (and still largely untouched as there are very few towns there) beaches in the UK are on the Gower Peninsula in South Wales.


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## Guest (May 6, 2010)

Dannysigma said:


> Much of Devon is nice too. And the best (and still largely untouched as there are very few towns there) beaches in the UK are on the Gower Peninsula in South Wales.


I used to be an 'ultra' runner, and did the coastal footpath around Devon and Cornwall in the early 80s. Plenty of the scenery is amazing, and unspoilt - or it was back then. As are the South Downs Way, the Cotswolds, the Pennine way, much of Wales and Scotland, the Yorkshire Moors and the Lake District. But the point is that as Danny says, these areas are not where most people go to live, and the changing lifestyles and environment in the towns and cities is most people's chief concern. Rural areas have suffered too, some losing the 'heart' of the community with less people engaged in local activities, an aging and shrinking church population, many and sometimes all of the local small shops, post offices and businesses closing down, and even the more remote pubs suffering from stricter drinking controls.


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## DavidO (May 3, 2010)

frogblogger said:


> I used to be an 'ultra' runner, and did the coastal footpath around Devon and Cornwall in the early 80s. Plenty of the scenery is amazing, and unspoilt - or it was back then. As are the South Downs Way, the Cotswolds, the Pennine way, much of Wales and Scotland, the Yorkshire Moors and the Lake District. But the point is that as Danny says, these areas are not where most people go to live, and the changing lifestyles and environment in the towns and cities is most people's chief concern. Rural areas have suffered too, some losing the 'heart' of the community with less people engaged in local activities, an aging and shrinking church population, many and sometimes all of the local small shops, post offices and businesses closing down, and even the more remote pubs suffering from stricter drinking controls.


I've walked many of these paths too and I can assure you that these areas remain largely unspoilt. I don't want to boast but I've been lucky enough to see many of the most beautiful sites of America and Europe and there are many places in Britain that rank right up there with them (even in bad weather!).

If you can afford to live in such an area you can have a great life. Even many of the larger towns in the Southwest are not the sort of mosh pits that many British expats grumble about.

I'm sure there are many other parts of the U.K. that are unspoilt but it just happens that I know the SW and so that's what I talk about.

Sadly, I do also acknowledge the degradation some of you have written about (and escaped!). There are large swaths of the U.K. I wouldn't dream of living in. I'm lucky to be able to choose. And even in the choicer areas you still see creeping yobbism and other alarming signs. I'm sorry to say you can see these processes in Spain too, it's just that they're perhaps 20 years "behind".

Today is an important election in the U.K. and let's hope there will finally be a government with the guts to make real changes (fat chance though that is!).


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## Dannysigma (Feb 22, 2009)

I lived in Exeter for several years fairly recently and still find I miss it.


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## DavidO (May 3, 2010)

Dannysigma said:


> I lived in Exeter for several years fairly recently and still find I miss it.


My wife and I lived outside Exeter for several years up to 2007 and we loved it. The only issue was getting around. It sometimes took an hour to get into Exeter on the A3051 (the fast route!) and London seemed a world away.

:focus:

To answer the question "Is life greener in the U.K" it depends on who you are and where you're coming from. If you're talking about colour it's greener than anywhere but Ireland!


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

DavidO said:


> My wife and I lived outside Exeter for several years up to 2007 and we loved it. The only issue was getting around. It sometimes took an hour to get into Exeter on the A3051 (the fast route!) and London seemed a world away.
> 
> :focus:
> 
> To answer the question "Is life greener in the U.K" it depends on who you are and where you're coming from. *If you're talking about colour it's greener than anywhere but Ireland!*


It's a dark shade of green up in Costa Verde too.:clap2:


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## breny1965 (May 6, 2010)

I was born and raised in Canada and have lived the last 10 yrs in the USA ...I recently came back from a 3 month visit to the UK to see my fiance ...I can now see why the USA is viewed as the land of opportunity all except for their health care system of course  ...but i wouldn't give up my fight to immigrate to the UK for anything ...

The health care system is good but does need some work ...ive seen some of the hospitals and they are dirty and need some re-organization ..

Many of the things you can get over here in North America you aren't offered in the UK such as food items that are sold nationally

Council tax and TV tax is the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard of

VAT is out of this world but i love the way its included in the end price 

Jobs are very hard to come by

Its overcrowded


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

breny1965 said:


> I was born and raised in Canada and have lived the last 10 yrs in the USA ...I recently came back from a 3 month visit to the UK to see my fiance ...I can now see why the USA is viewed as the land of opportunity all except for their health care system of course  ...*but i wouldn't give up my fight to immigrate to the UK for anything ...
> *:clap2::clap2:
> The *health care system is good *but does need some work ...ive seen some of the hospitals and they are dirty and need some re-organization ..
> 
> ...



Best way to enjoy the UK is just look at the positives and ignore the bad..


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## breny1965 (May 6, 2010)

NorthernLass said:


> Best way to enjoy the UK is just look at the positives and ignore the bad..


Believe me i want to be in the UK, these are just little things i noticed that could be improved on ...all in all the UK is so much better than the USA ...and I will always have a place in my heart for Canada being Canadian but all countries have good and bad ...

I will take your advice wholeheartedly ..thank you ..


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## Shipresa (Dec 9, 2008)

*We are moving to USA.*

I've lived in Ukraine (yes! Even in the deepest darkest East to boot!!!!), Russia, Brazil, USA (I'm USC), Armenia, Spain, France, and now, married to a Scot and lived in NE Scotland now almost 2 years. I'm done.

The cold, the grey. Of course, of course, there are pretty spots in Scotland. I love the Borders and the Highlands, oh and Shetland took my breath away. But to live... okay, the 'estates' (estates in USA are generally billionaire's homes, here they are council housing), the ASDAs, the dodgy folks and the drinking culture really turned me off.

Ukraine: Huge drinking culture but it was all social and around the 'table' - meaning neighbors, friends, family. Here - I've invited neighbors 'round for tea and they seemed like I asked them to skin babies. Of the four closes houses to me, I know the name of ONE of the ladies. Ukraine in the 90s was awful. Ration coupons even for bread....but the PEOPLE were all the more merry, and they were poor, lacking resources, everything. And it is pretty damn grey in East Ukraine! But the people had a better ATTITUDE.

Brazil - lacked infrastructure, but sun sun sun and great people with positive attitudes. Easy to make friends and it was a poor country but great people.

France: I found people friendly, but did not make close friends there. Weather was better than Scotland! (I think all places have better weather!)

I've been places in the world that I cried to leave. I've only had ONE place in the world that I asked to leave - Scotland. Its pretty at times...but the weather is god-awful depressing. And the towns are built in granite - more grey. Grey is all I think of and see.

I'm American and I know its not the perfect place, but here the taxes are killing us. Oh we can afford it here, but in the USA, we can live 30-40% less cost on EVERYTHING. Here the houses can't be improved (the planning barriers in Scotland are over the top), we can't buy a plot to build, the houses are poky small, 'mod-cons' are 20 years behind the continent or USA.... its all just a hassle. Rules, government, security cameras - I feel less 'free' in the UK, for some reason. I don't care if the police don't carry guns...I feel like I'm on camera 24/7.

Taxes are going up, and we'd rather have a home in southern sunny USA and a second holiday home to boot. We seriously considered the continent of Europe, and someday if we return to 'Europe', it will not be UK, but the continent.

I think the UK had its brilliance in the centuries before...but things need to change. Style of government, tax structure, housing (for private housing, more than enough is done for charity housing) - the UK needs something to make themselves feel better.

Additionally, interacting with Scots (and more than such) makes me glad I was raised in the USA. Folks think Americans are aggressive, selfish and money-grubbing, oh and rude. But anywhere I go in the USA, for the most part, people will LOOK at me, TALK to me and in the south, actually ASK how I am - a total stranger. Here, no one seems to want to be bothered with anyone!

I do want my kids to grow up with self-confidence and self-esteem. I don't know what is done so differently in the schools here, but grown men have to get drunk just to do anything (and can't do much, being drunk.) Everyone is afraid to state an opinion...and the men are so fearful (except when drunk.) I don't get it...as an American, we don't shut up. Here, folks seems to dislike chatting at all.

Now I have a friend who is born Scottish but lived years in England. She's chatty, bright and loves to do things. Made us start wondering if we should move to England....maybe things are a bit brighter? Then we looked into costs of houses and easily could suss living in south England would take all our resources and did not want the stress.

My intended final place to live is SE Asia.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Shipresa said:


> I've lived in Ukraine (yes! Even in the deepest darkest East to boot!!!!), Russia, Brazil, USA (I'm USC), Armenia, Spain, France, and now, married to a Scot and lived in NE Scotland now almost 2 years. I'm done.
> 
> The cold, the grey. Of course, of course, there are pretty spots in Scotland. I love the Borders and the Highlands, oh and Shetland took my breath away. But to live... okay, the 'estates' (estates in USA are generally billionaire's homes, here they are council housing), the ASDAs, the dodgy folks and the drinking culture really turned me off.
> 
> ...


England would not have suited you any better. Many of the things of which you complain in Scotland are also true of much of Southern England which is why I moved to Spain in Central Andalusía . Here the people are friendly, everyone speaks and a 100m walk to and from the local shop can take 30 minutes or more because everyone wants to talk and be sociable. There is no booze culture here. People don't look very affluent but appearances can be deceptive and, in fact, people here are quite well to do but they don't show it, no wall to wall TV, flash cars or other signs of ostentation. They are kind, generous and very gentle.


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## Shipresa (Dec 9, 2008)

*I like Andalucia as well... but one last comment..healthcare.*



baldilocks said:


> England would not have suited you any better. Many of the things of which you complain in Scotland are also true of much of Southern England which is why I moved to Spain in Central Andalusía . Here the people are friendly, everyone speaks and a 100m walk to and from the local shop can take 30 minutes or more because everyone wants to talk and be sociable. There is no booze culture here. People don't look very affluent but appearances can be deceptive and, in fact, people here are quite well to do but they don't show it, no wall to wall TV, flash cars or other signs of ostentation. They are kind, generous and very gentle.


NHS. Healthcare. This is one reason why we as well want to exit from UK. We are lucky with the post code lottery in Scotland. Living in a village, I can see a GP within a day. However...

1. Have to return umpteen times as no one is a 'specialist.' Husband got athlete's foot - in USA we just go to a dermatologist. (This is not an HMO situation, and most insurance in USA isn't like that anymore, where you MUST see your GP to get a referral...) Here in UK, bounced around within the practice, no one really knows. Was cured by a pharmacist in Florence, Italy.
2. Gynecology. In USA, its our 'annual', and its always covered. Each woman has their gyno. Here, the nurse mucks about inside with a swab, with everyone apologizing to see your whoo hoo. No physical exam. No breast exam, no discussion about sexual health. Or the GP can do it, but he's not a specialist. Here PAP smears are every 3 years. Good luck getting it more frequently.
3. Infertility, older parenting - same as in USA. Except here you pay for IVF after age 40. But reality is you only get a few cycles and waiting lists for fertility specialists are YEARS long. Most UK folks go abroad for this need. (However IVF is cheaper here than in USA, but not as cost-resourceful as Mexico or Czech Republic.)
4. Since NHS doesn't cover dental, most folks are too cheap ('mean' is the word here in Scotland) to get it done. Like cleanings or repairs.
5. Husband suffered a hernia. Wait time on NHS was 3-4 months and remember, I'm in the GOOD post code. Used private insurance (which most smarter Brits keep just because NHS isn't exactly the best choice) and was scheduled with the same doctor that would to it for 2 days later.
6. Routine stuff, if you can wait, great. I had a raging ear infection the week of my wedding. NHS could do nothing, but offered me an appointment in 3 months time. So we went private insurance, got seen within an hour. (Cost is 100 pounds per claim.) Now, my ENT guy here - if I see him with private insurance, its at a private clinic, state of the art equipment (like vacuums)...but if I see him on the NHS, the clinic is from 1854 retrofitted...and 60s equipment, I swear its like the hospitals in the Former Soviet Union. He only has a syringe... no vacuum... and I swear to God, the sign on the paper towel dispenser said, "Use only one!" - and it was EMPTY. Sickness CAUSED in clinics and hospitals has been a huge story here this past year.

Healthcare is actually something we WANT to go to USA for. I am sorry for all those that cannot afford it in the USA, but we can. I am from the USA and have had such a positive experience there with all levels of healthcare. I am from a family of small business owners that did not have health insurance cover.... but that reality is long gone, we will have health insurance though my husband's employer. We couldn't do it without insurance that way.

And also, healthcare in SE Asia and many countries (I've had my best dental work in Morocco and Armenia) is affordable WITHOUT insurance.

My fear was to get pregnant in Scotland, with the nearest NHS hospital 20 miles away, and very little in the way of neo and ante-natal care.

I think the UK will soon wake up and find that it isn't possible for the government to take care of them anymore, and really should stop expecting that all is provided.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

The NHS, isnt without its faults, so much money and time wasted, BUT, the NHS is second to none in a serious emergency

Jo xxx


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Here in Central Andalucía, we get our healthcare promptly. They are much more aware of issues - for example - in UK try to get hormone levels checked for a male - forget it they don't even have a norm for testosterone and oestrogen (yes, males have it too) Here they are checked and if appropriate diagnosis is made then you get a male HRT - I feel so much better!

NHS is riddled with so-called specialists on the make. "I'm sorry but the waiting list is about three months, however if you are willing to go private, I can do it for you next week..." B*st*rds keep the waiting list long so that they can feed patients into their private clinic and get a fee - what is worse is they are using NHS facilities while lining their own pockets - B*st*rds!


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

I must admit I dont know why people claim the NHS is so bloody fantastic either...its a bit rubbish (and I work for them lol)


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## Jawahar (Aug 4, 2007)

*Answer to Australians who don,t like UK*



gazinchina said:


> I have just graduated from uni and moved to china to teach because there wasnt any jobs for me there. But some of you are talking crap, To crowded? moved out of london, England is actually a big place with a countryside! Yeh the government sucks but ive yet to speak to one person from any country that things there government is good. I Love England and think its a beautiful place. Yes a lot of people have moved from there recently but also a lot of people are still moving to England. I think its because of the world wide recession. that people have started looking for jobs abroad.


Yes you are 100% right my friend, England is a great country, i have lived here for 45 years, and my families and i have lived under Australians in Fiji for hundred of years, it was British colony, run by Australian, and i know who where more rude , selfish and racist, not the Brits, but Australian, we where in sydney two years ago and find white people are specially very rude and unhelpful, who wants to sit on the grass and swim in there river and sea, with, spiders, snakes, scorpians, crocodiles, sharks and hundreds of other creepies all over the place, we havn,t got all those nasties in England, we have lots of great country side and great history to go with it, and our national health is the best in the world, and our pound is much better then Australian doller, thats why you Australian come here, plus everything is much cheaper here, i remember buying about ten green chillies for $1.50 and mud crabs for over $60.00 per kg, so was many other things much more expensive then here in UK, Great country, and if you don,t like it here then go back to Australia.


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

temporary said:


> I must admit I dont know why people claim the NHS is so bloody fantastic either...its a bit rubbish (and I work for them lol)




I have no complaints about the NHS, those that work in hospitals and surgeries are to be respected and paid well..

It's the Administration which is rubbish..those holding the purse-strings and unable to organize it efficiently


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

The NHs is definitely not the best health system in the world......thats a tad jingoistic


Its FAR superior to that of many places in the world but certainly not fabulous. The quality of medicine and yes, administration is not good. Ive been both employee and service user.....


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

temporary said:


> The NHs is definitely not the best health system in the world......thats a tad jingoistic
> 
> 
> Its FAR superior to that of many places in the world but certainly not fabulous. The quality of medicine and yes, administration is not good. Ive been both employee and service user.....



I've been on both sides too. I agree its not brilliant - in fact I think its pretty useless and corrupt to the core, However, if you have a serious, life or death accident/emergency, its one of the best!

Jo xxx


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

by the way, where do you live jawahar?

Im in the north west and have been shocked by the racism here

I know there is racism everywhere but you seem to imply there is none in england?


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

jojo said:


> I've been on both sides too. I agree its not brilliant - in fact I think its pretty useless and corrupt to the core, However, if you have a serious, life or death accident/emergency, its one of the best!
> 
> Jo xxx


I almost died in childbirth here.....they neglected to check my bloods and found after 3 days that i had Hb less that 4 (as I was being discharged!). I had to ask them to do them


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

that being said, my local GP is really good and a nice lady


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

temporary said:


> I almost died in childbirth here.....they neglected to check my bloods and found after 3 days that i had Hb less that 4 (as I was being discharged!). I had to ask them to do them



I know, I could give you a list of fatal and almost fatal errors that have occured in my family alone thanks to the NHS!! I could bang on all day about the inadequacies of the NHS and their poor service. But, I do know that if you're involved in a serious 999 incident, the service is as good as anywhere!!!! Probably cos in an emergency, the PC, box ticking paperwork rubbish goes out the window

Jo xxx


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

jojo said:


> I know, I could give you a list of fatal and almost fatal errors that have occured in my family alone thanks to the NHS!! I could bang on all day about the inadequacies of the NHS and their poor service. But, I do know that if you're involved in a serious 999 incident, the service is as good as anywhere!!!! Probably cos in an emergency, the PC, box ticking paperwork rubbish goes out the window
> 
> Jo xxx


Thats good to know

(We waited 6 hours for an ambulance, eventually caught a taxi to the hospital (the neighbours told us when it arrived) when I went in but i suppose they thought it a non emergency - it was a cord prolapse risk but all worked out ok  )


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## Jawahar (Aug 4, 2007)

temporary said:


> by the way, where do you live jawahar?
> 
> Im in the north west and have been shocked by the racism here
> 
> I know there is racism everywhere but you seem to imply there is none in england?


I live in Harrow Middlesex, of course there is racism in England. but not half as much as Australia, i don,t know where you saw that i said there is no racism in England, my meaning was that i rather live with the Brits then with Australian,


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

I guess we can only go by our own experiences..I personally saw less racism in australia (although know it exists) and have been shocked by the racism Ive seen here...its all relative to where you live I guess 

how long did you live in australia for?


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## free_zeebo (May 16, 2010)

I really don't think britian is racist at all.. obviosuly there are a few idiots but the system and country is not racist.

As for the NHS is agree it is a bag of poop! concidering how much we pay for it!.. In cyprus i am using the state free healthcare system and i have to say its better by far... Any if i wanted i could pay about 30 euros a month and use private clinics (but i dont need too). Think of how much tax and NI supposedly go on NHS and compare that to the 30 euros private and you can see it isnt great...


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## TrulyBridget (May 12, 2010)

I had to read this thread because I am moving to the UK in about four months. Some of it is very understandable and I wish I had more knowledge to be able to seriously contribute to the thread. Alas, I do not. Though when I was reading it, I thought 'Here too!" or something of that sort. Here is my 2 cents (or pence) for what it is worth.

Every country has its amazing facets and its not so great ones. That goes without saying. Also, you must realize that expats have their own personal reasons for leaving. For every expat there is another native person saying, "But I think it's okay here!" No country is an Utopia, no matter what anyone says. I hail from the United States. Give me your tired, poor and hungry. The land of opportunity and dreams. Better yet, I live in Orlando, Florida. Endless beaches, Disney, nightlife, days upon days of sun and yet... I want to move, desperately. I will say that there are a great many opportunity in the US and Florida has some very great aspects to living here. You would not believe how many retired British people live here. If anywhere in the US is seen as Utopian, it's California and Florida. You get this dreamy, film version in your head of bonfires on the beach, tanned gorgeous people everywhere, Disney every weekend, etc. That is not the reality of it at all. I will list some of my own personal reasons of me wanting to escape Florida.

-Hot. Yes, the sun is good. Too much sun has horrible effects. A study was published about skin cancer and it said that if you live in Florida, you are almost guaranteed to develop some sort of skin cancer. The heat is literally unbearable in the summers and all wait until it is morning or evening so they can enjoy what few minutes they have in somewhat decent weather. Being cooped up all day in the A/C, staring out the window is not that fun, believe me. 
-Expensive. Here, the rent is going sky-high. Perhaps not what it would be in NYC or London, but still for where it is at and for the quality of apartment, rent is ridiculous. 

-Health Care- NHS sounds like a dream. Let me give you a personal story of mine and my mom's. In January 2009, I started having gall bladder problems at the young age of 21 (blame genetics) and at THE SAME time caught the fatal type of pneumonia. Well, I was in the hospital about seven days and after surgery and all the high cost anti-biotics they put me on and the cost of the ICU, I was in debt for 55,000.00 USD. 55,000.00!!!!!!! I am 21 and a college student! How can I have over 50,000.00 dollars in debt for SEVEN days?! Luckily, by the grace of God, they tipped it off to charity and I didn't owe a dime. THIS NEVER HAPPENS HERE. Usually you would end up paying the 55,000. My mom had something go wrong with her kidneys and wracked up a bill of 35,000.00 that she cannot pay. She pays in small increments but it will never be fully paid off. It comes down to: Oh no! I don't have healthcare so I will have to pay copious amounts to be seen or just be sick. What a horrible option! What about us students who cannot afford healthcare but yet we are the future of the country?! Are we supposed to just die? Healthcare here is so expensive too. 40 pounds seems like heaven compared to 200-1000.00 dollars one has to pay for private healthcare here. Though there may be a waiting list, at least you aren't give the only options: pay us or be sick/die. 

-Rude/Selfishness- Talk about being rude or selfish. Come here to the States. In the South, they are more friendly. I will have to say that but I don't know my neighbors that well. I know one neighbor of the six I have. My family works in a nonprofit organization and you should see how people use others to get their way. How about stealing a 25 cent loaf of bread so they can go down the street to sell it for more? It happens all the time. I live in a small town outside of Orlando and we are supposed to give off that 'Normal Rockwell' old-school charm. Yeah, right. Tell that to the projects/slums right across the road from this Norman Rockwell charm. Drugs are bad and we lock our doors and deadbolt them because of this. Crime is high. People don't really care. I think this is just the state of things globally though and we, in the words of Ghandi, have to be the change we want to see in the world. 

-Drug/Drinking Culture. I don't know if we are quite as bad as the UK just yet but we are bad. It is not uncommon for people to be doing drugs in clubs, binge drinking, etc. I mean for goodness sake, just look at the news here. We seem to have the highest rate of mortality from drugs and drinking. I think it's just getting bad everywhere. 

-Plastic. People are becoming more and more superficial. I have yet to encounter a country as superficial as the US. There is so much emphasis on looking great and plastic surgery. i pride myself on looking my best but I like to have an intelligent conversation about more than just the color of my nails. This, unfortunately, amongst younger Americans is becoming more and more difficult to find. Perhaps this is globally but it seems to me the in the UK it hasn't quite reached the levels of the USA yet and my British friends can still talk about literature and like without picking at their cuticles and saying, 'ummmm...'

-Education. Florida has some of the worst public education in the whole of the US. I think we come out as the 48th state out of 50. Go us! I was lucky enough to be in the advanced part of my high school but my regular classes were a joke. Not only this but look up the 'No Child Left Behind' act instated by good ole George W. Bush. So where children who don't understand what is being taught are still passed to the next level/grade and therefore we are raising a generation of illiterate people who get by just because they can. Great law. :-|

-Prejudice. I thought I would escape racism when I moved here a decade ago. I was dead wrong. There is more prejudice against everyone here. More '********' and uneducated people delighting in the fact that they are uneducated and living off of welfare. Confederate flags are still waved here and the KKK is still quite active. And I am talking about all sorts of racism. Whites to blacks, blacks to whites, hispanics to blacks, etc. One of my first memories of high school was accidentally bumping into an African American girl and her looking at me and saying very seriously, "I wish all you white folk would just DIE." Very friendly. Land of Sunshine and the Happiest Place on Earth!

-Overcrowded. It is a bit overcrowded here as well as we get people flocking from every nation. The traffic is HORRENDOUS on I75 and SR 60. It is not just in the UK believe me. The small town vibe makes it suffocating as there is no nightlife here at all and everything closes shop around 8 pm or earlier. 

-Dead/Retirement. Mainly this is a state for older people past their prime who want to relax. It is NOT a state for the young at all. You will have a hard time meeting someone your own age with enough brain cells to formulate a coherent sentence. Not only that, but most of the stuff to do is either geared towards a) families or b) retirees. While good for them, if you are in your youth and are looking for things to do and work opportunities...look elsewhere. You will not find it here. It shouldn't be called the Sunshine State. It should be called the 'Golden Oldie' State. 

Though to say all that, I have met some of the sweetest people here. Those are just some things and yet, I cannot generalize everyone or everyplace as I have not lived there nor met everyone. You find good and bad everywhere. Unfortunately, we don't live in movies nor Norman Rockwell paintings and each has their flaws.

This is just a post to show that no place is Utopia. I live in what is supposedly Utopia in many people's minds and yet it is far from it. You wouldn't believe how many foreigners have told me they would love to live where I do (so many of my British friends told me this) but it is not all it seems to be. Though for every one person like me, there are three saying, "But I don't mind it here, Bridget." It depends entirely on the person and their views and what they want/value. 

Sorry this was such a long post and I cannot contribute sufficiently about the UK. I just wanted to offer up some other perspective from across the pond. Hope it wasn't too boring!

From the Happiest Place on Earth,
Bridget


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## mike_smith (Feb 13, 2010)

TrulyBridget said:


> This is just a post to show that no place is Utopia. I live in what is supposedly Utopia in many people's minds and yet it is far from it. You wouldn't believe how many foreigners have told me they would love to live where I do (so many of my British friends told me this) but it is not all it seems to be. Though for every one person like me, there are three saying, "But I don't mind it here, Bridget." It depends entirely on the person and their views and what they want/value.


Well said.

Many of the expats I have come across around the world seem to love 'sticking the knife' into their home country. To be honest I think it is caused in a lot of cases by a need to reassure oneself that the right move has been made, to try and erase any lingering doubt (conscious or otherwise). People like to be 'right' and to be seen to be right, and I can't help but wonder whether some people who spend much of their time criticising doth protest too much.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mike_smith said:


> Well said.
> 
> Many of the expats I have come across around the world seem to love 'sticking the knife' into their home country. To be honest I think it is caused in a lot of cases by a need to reassure oneself that the right move has been made, to try and erase any lingering doubt (conscious or otherwise). People like to be 'right' and to be seen to be right, and I can't help but wonder whether some people who spend much of their time criticising doth protest too much.


Many of the criticisms that have been made about "The Home" country are valid in OUR eyes.  The place has changed beyond all recognition from what we grew up with and liked, so that it is no longer the place we want to be. The fact that we went through all the upheaval and moved lock, stock and barrel to a new country with, in many cases a totally different language means something. 

For many of us it is a desire to embrace a totally different culture in which many of the family values that we miss still exist. Of course there are those who only emigrated to a replica of their original environment (a.k.a. Little Britain on the costas somewhere) but with cheap booze and sunshine but we don't count those as having any worthwhile points of view anyway and are to be avoided as much as possible.

Before there are all sorts of outcries - this is, as with any other post, MY personal opinion for what it is worth.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

*This is why WE left*

We used to live about a mile away from where this happened and this is not a bad run-down area. If we still lived there, we would have been at this concert, that could have happened to one of us.

Stab victim 'protecting fiancee' - Yahoo! News UK

Does this answer the OP's question?


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## Captain Planet (Jun 8, 2010)

the weather


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Captain Planet said:


> the weather


In what way? Are you suggesting it is better in the UK? If so, you must have been hibernating through last winter.


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> In what way? Are you suggesting it is better in the UK? If so, you must have been hibernating through last winter.


It´s all relative and personal..some like it hot, some like it cold.


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## Guest (Jul 6, 2010)

killingxspree said:


> Ok, so I'm trying not to go into the UK with green coloured specs... but I need some insight.
> Why is the UK such a bad place to live in? I don't want to go there and be hit with it.
> There is a myriad of UK expats in Australia and I just don't get it.
> Some of the very vague reasons I've heard cited for moving were lifestyle, nice place to raise children and the government sucks in the UK...???
> ...


Hi, I am new to the expatforum, but I would just like to say a few things.
I was born in Cumbria (Lake District) in England 46 years ago.
My husband is from Lancashire, we married in the late 80s and have a 17 year old son and a 13 year old daughter.
Life was great in the UK, we have had no problem with it and its diverse scenery, culture, easy commutes, close family and friends. 
We only came to Canada as an adventure as we thought there would be more space for our children, and the "what ifs" would have always niggled us if we had not emigrated here in 2005. 
No one can tell you where you will be happy, that is so personal and entirely up to the individual, but.........
too much reading into The Daily Fail newspaper is geared at running down the UK and I think it's a disgrace. The news in Canada is delivered in such a different way and tends to cover over a lot of issues and crime that exist here.
We were shocked and appalled at the news of the Cumbrian taxi driver going on a shooting spree the other week, but gun crime is 6 times worse in Canada than in the UK.
The winters are very very long in Ontario - from 4 -5 months not to mention the dangerous freezing rain that makes the roads and windscreens like an ice-rink.
The Canadians haven't got that good old British sense of humour and can be very tiresome to talk to unless you're interested in them and their baseball or ice hockey.
The education system is appalling and the health care is not as good as the uk's NHS.
Electricity and food prices are so high, it's like another mortgage.
UK qualifications aren't recognised, and many expats have to re-train, and may not land a job. Wages are low here and cost of living high.
The distances to travel for decent stores is unbelievable.
There's so much more choice in the UK for shops and gorgeous tasting food.
We are heading back to Cumbria next week with our dogs, but unfortunately my husband is having to stay in Ontario to sell the house, we have reduced it twice.
I am devastated that we have to be apart for goodness know how many weeks, it's like a bereavement, and in a lot of ways I regret coming here, but the journey has made us really know what is important to us, and that's family and familiarity and friends and culture.
The grass is not greener it's a different shade.


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## danpardy (Jun 23, 2010)

killingxspree said:


> Is this 'ignorance is bliss' speaking?
> please enlighten me what social, socio-economic, educational, political problems....etc people in the UK face that push them towards Australia [is it really better here?]


It depends on the area you move to. I live in a nice area of the South West, violent crime is a lot rarer, and on the whole is a safe and pleasant place to live, but the people here are apathetic and generally not very motivated.

I'd never want to live in a city in the UK though, not after working in places like Birmingham and London.

Dan


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## mart81 (Jul 15, 2010)

My 2p after having moved to the UK from NL

Taxes: a lot less (21% compared to 40+)
Wages: higher for similar IT jobs
Costs of living: yes rents are higher but it evens out based on the taxes. Supermarkets are cheap. Bottle of coke for 1 quid whereas the same bottle is 2.50 in NL
Petrol is 20% cheaper as well (can you believe it, cheap petrol in the UK?)
Health insurance: paying 30GBP a month now whereas I was paying 150GBP in NL
Council tax: seems like an evil thiing but the council is taking care of everything and actually listens when you have something to say or require a service..

Nanny state: Not any more or less than any other European country however I think its good that a government tries to protects its citizens. I strongly dislike NL's drug policy for instance and think the UK police are heros when it comes to dealing with this issue
Police: Here in England when you see an officer you still have somewhat of a fear whereas in NL the police are regarded as clowns because they tolerate anything

Traffic: I was in jams 90 minutes twice a day when commuting to and from Amsterdam whereas here I'm at work in 5 minutes. Obviously the M3 is not as densely congested, and the rare occasion I have to go over the M25 I take it for granted

Weather: get some balls.. if you've grown up in NW/Europe the weather is the same everywhere. Actually on the south coast of England I get more sunshine than I used to have in NL


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

mart81 said:


> My 2p after having moved to the UK from NL
> 
> Taxes: a lot less (21% compared to 40+)
> Wages: higher for similar IT jobs
> ...


Diesel is cheaper in NL - 1.16 euro/litre (98p) vs £1.15 here


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

i dont know about you mate, but both my husband and I are taxed at a much higher rate than that


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mart81 said:


> Petrol is 20% cheaper as well (can you believe it, cheap petrol in the UK?)
> 
> Council tax: seems like an evil thiing but the council is taking care of everything and actually listens when you have something to say or require a service..
> 
> ...


In UK diesel is more expensive than petrol but slightly less than in France - here in Spain it is 20% cheaper than in France.

Council tax in UK is a rip-off - and goes more to pay for councillors parties and lazy inefficient council staff (I was one of them at one time!) Refuse collection is poor, (some councils want to cut back to fortnightly!) making the rat and freal fox problem even worse than it is already. Here in Spain it is collected every evening (including Sundays and public holidays) so no rats nor feral foxes etc. Our council tax here includes water and sewerage as well and I pay per year what I used to pay per year in UK.

Nanny state - there are far too many people living off the state, i.e. off the backs of those in work and that includes corrupt politicians.

UK Police are rubbish now compared with what they were. Here in Spain we have excellent relations with our Police.

Traffic - What is a traffic jam? it is now 9.00 a.m. and I have been to Alcalá la Real and back and only seen about a dozen other vehicles.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

I have the UK radio on (on my PC) and the news just included an item that said "The UK is the best place in the world to die!" It's a bl**dy awful place to live* now*.


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## mart81 (Jul 15, 2010)

Joppa said:


> Diesel is cheaper in NL - 1.16 euro/litre (98p) vs £1.15 here



Yea but that opens an entirely different (yet equally strange debate).
Petrol is 1.57 EUR per liter in NL right now whereas Diesel is usually around 1.20 EUR
In the UK Diesel and Petrol are about equal.
In NL your roadtax when driving a Diesel vehicle is 4 times that of a Petrol vehicle (roughly 420 EUR per quarter). The Dutch government do that because they find Diesel damages the environment. Whereas in the UK, your roadtax is zero because Diesel is good for the environment (better mileage).. :eyebrows: :confused2:

Btw the Spanish police are probably one of the best in Europe, especially the Guardia Civil. You don't mess with them


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mart81 said:


> Whereas in the UK, your roadtax is zero because Diesel is good for the environment (better mileage).. :eyebrows: :confused2:


Road tax in the UK zero??????? I dont think so!! - well maybe for classic cars, but everyone else pays per engine size and it aint cheap!!

Jo xxx


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mart81 said:


> Btw the Spanish police are probably one of the best in Europe, especially the Guardia Civil. You don't mess with them


In Spain our roadtax is generally less than in the UK.

The mere mention saying the Guardia Civil are best in the world will get you strung up in some parts of Spain especially by the older Spaniards. They were Franco's Gestapo and were not averse to bullying, murdering innocent souls and generally be right nasty b*stards during the Civil War.


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## mart81 (Jul 15, 2010)

jojo said:


> Road tax in the UK zero??????? I dont think so!! - well maybe for classic cars, but everyone else pays per engine size and it aint cheap!!
> 
> Jo xxx


It is zero for diesel engines below a certain amount of CO2 exhaust. 140gr or something, might be more. I recently had a look at this cos I'm looking to acquire a UK vehicle


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mart81 said:


> It is zero for diesel engines below a certain amount of CO2 exhaust. 140gr or something, might be more. I recently had a look at this cos I'm looking to acquire a UK vehicle



I heard that some very, very small engine cars, (mainly electric) may have no tax, but I can find no evidence of that??? 

Exemptions from paying vehicle tax : Directgov - Motoring

Jo xxx


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## mart81 (Jul 15, 2010)

jojo said:


> I heard that some very, very small engine cars, (mainly electric) may have no tax, but I can find no evidence of that???
> 
> Exemptions from paying vehicle tax : Directgov - Motoring
> 
> Jo xxx


BBC NEWS | Special Reports | 629 | 629 | New car tax rates
this is an article from 2008. more changes have been made in 2010, can't find a link to that now. I got my info from the site of the car manufacturer I was looking at


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

Im still pffft over the tax thing. I am taxed at 40%


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

temporary said:


> Im still pffft over the tax thing. I am taxed at 40%


Perhaps you are getting overpaid!! most of us who pay or paid tax in UK never earned enough to pay more than the basic rate! So stop whingeing!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

temporary said:


> Im still pffft over the tax thing. I am taxed at 40%



The UK needs all the help it can get financially. If what you're paying is correct, then sadly thats why I guess

Jo xxx


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> Perhaps you are getting overpaid!! most of us who pay or paid tax in UK never earned enough to pay more than the basic rate! So stop whingeing!


lol I know, but you cant make a blanket statement that tax is 20% as it isnt.
The 40% threshold isnt that high either.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

temporary said:


> lol I know, but you cant make a blanket statement that tax is 20% as it isnt.
> The 40% threshold isnt that high either.


The answer, as always, is - go back to where you came from. 

In any case it is something you should have researched before you went to UK. I looked at the various tax rates when I was looking for where to go and so avoided France


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> The answer, as always, is - go back to where you came from.
> 
> In any case it is something you should have researched before you went to UK. I looked at the various tax rates when I was looking for where to go and so avoided France


The tax has changed a LOT since I first came here, so has my income.....we evolve

I should add I came here in a marriage so its a moot point


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## temporary (Apr 5, 2010)

btw i think you misunderstood me..... I was pffft 'ing at the 20% statement made by someone above rather than the actual tax


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## DavidO (May 3, 2010)

Expat experiences and perceptions are very subjective. I love living in the U.K. It offers so many things that I find lacking in the USA. Life can be hell in the U.K., as it can be anywhere, but there are many lovely areas here that are great places to live.

For this reason I'm often shocked at the level of hostility expressed by many Brits about their own country. Of course I can see many of their points but it's never a complete and balanced picture.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

DavidO said:


> Expat experiences and perceptions are very subjective. I love living in the U.K. It offers so many things that I find lacking in the USA. Life can be hell in the U.K., as it can be anywhere, but there are many lovely areas here that are great places to live.
> 
> For this reason I'm often shocked at the level of hostility expressed by many Brits about their own country. Of course I can see many of their points but it's never a complete and balanced picture.


I have absolutely no argument when it comes to scenery, etc. BUT when it comes to the corrupt politicians who seemingly can get away with blue-murder and the moronic idle wasters who live off those who actually work and contribute to society, - Britain is way out in front! - Come to think of it, those politicians fit into the category of the moronic idle wasters who live off those who actually work and contribute to society, too!

I agree before anyone else comments that US politicians take some beating (AND some of them enjoy it :clap2: )


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## mlangweiler (Sep 2, 2008)

*expat from the USA*

Yep, I left the US to come here. I find the general quality of life better. Not the constant dog eat dog, marketing is everything that one finds in the States. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot a great things there, it's just easier to live here in many ways. Of course there are problems, taxes are high, but then they are high in most places (I have lived ln both Spain and the Netherlands and didn't find it much different). And the Brits love their paper work, but once you get around that stuff, things are pretty good. I certainly have no plans on returning to the States anytime soon.


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## hownowbc (Jul 11, 2010)

You should try Ireland! It has all of the bad bits mentioned above but visitors love it. Perhaps we all see the faults in our own and not the good things -"far away hills are green(er)"


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## Jennianne (Feb 8, 2010)

Hi we live in scotland but r moving to edmonton in a few months. The main reason we r going is the job situation here just now the recession is still in full flow here and very very very difficult to find work! my hubby has managed to get a permanent job in edmonton where he is self employed here and work has seriously dried up!! Just want to make you aware of the job prospects here im a midwife and havent worked since february and there are no job vacancies for me at all in scotland!


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## tackle (Mar 9, 2010)

the post above shows a midwife who cant get work yet every maternity unit i have been to is seriously understaffed, to the point where such a situation contributed to the death of our second child..........yet only recently there was a fly on the wall documentary at a maternity unit & they had excess staff, receptionists & even people with nothing better to do than make copious cups of tea..........the whole programme stunk of state sponsored "spin", its crap like this that honest people have to endure that makes me so angry towards my own country, a country i once served with pride but now fills me with rage.........shame on those responsible.


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## JerryH (Apr 18, 2010)

tackle said:


> the post above shows a midwife who cant get work yet every maternity unit i have been to is seriously understaffed, to the point where such a situation contributed to the death of our second child..........yet only recently there was a fly on the wall documentary at a maternity unit & they had excess staff, receptionists & even people with nothing better to do than make copious cups of tea..........the whole programme stunk of state sponsored "spin", its crap like this that honest people have to endure that makes me so angry towards my own country, a country i once served with pride but now fills me with rage.........shame on those responsible.


Quote the link, though living in the US and criticising health care any where else in the western world is skating on very thin ice.........


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## tackle (Mar 9, 2010)

sorry jerry, im actually in the uk, dunno why my profile shows me living in us, i'll attempt to alter it..........& the "above" post i mention is immediately above mine.


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## JerryH (Apr 18, 2010)

tackle said:


> sorry jerry, im actually in the uk, dunno why my profile shows me living in us, i'll attempt to alter it..........& the "above" post i mention is immediately above mine.


Ah so in the UK and aware of the state of the US health system, makes more sense !

If you go here :

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/profile.php?do=editprofile

You can choose the country you're from and currently in.


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## Jennianne (Feb 8, 2010)

england does have a bigger need for midwives. But things staring to go very down hill here due to not covering midwives on ward when people off sick etc which they did before recession! lots of complaints now flooding into to hospitals here i have been told. Looking forward to my new start in canada though!


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## patient man (Feb 14, 2010)

i must agree with babs but the big problem now is immigration, too many economic immigrants who take out the system knowing they never have to pay in , so for taxpayers like me, when you need help, you cant get it(thankfully i never have used the benefit system and never go to the doctors) the feeling in the Uk at the momemt is that the British person is being outbred by people who want their own little enclave, force their way of life down our throats, have laws to protect (set by dogooders who HAVNT A CLUE) them from racial abuse but wont accept laws that protect the anglo saxons of the country from the same abuse, I am not racist and have many friends of mixed nationalities who agree with my views. Thats why I am leaving this nation hopefully to live in a country who accepts immigrants who want to be proud to live in their country ,live by their laws, pay their taxes AND FULLY INTEGRATE, and immerse INTO A COMMUNITY. No doubt someone will disagree with my views but that is their right. As a final note there are lots of british who use the system in the same , never worked , no intentions of doing so, because they can have a good life at the expense of the taxpayer.


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## Jennianne (Feb 8, 2010)

Bring On Canada eh??? I cant wait now!! Especially with big budgets cuts to soon be announced! affecting plice, fire service nhs!! going to be a nightmare! article in bbc news online today too about state of housing market you should have a look! we r renting out our house here as it will never sell in current climate!




patient man said:


> i must agree with babs but the big problem now is immigration, too many economic immigrants who take out the system knowing they never have to pay in , so for taxpayers like me, when you need help, you cant get it(thankfully i never have used the benefit system and never go to the doctors) the feeling in the Uk at the momemt is that the British person is being outbred by people who want their own little enclave, force their way of life down our throats, have laws to protect (set by dogooders who HAVNT A CLUE) them from racial abuse but wont accept laws that protect the anglo saxons of the country from the same abuse, I am not racist and have many friends of mixed nationalities who agree with my views. Thats why I am leaving this nation hopefully to live in a country who accepts immigrants who want to be proud to live in their country ,live by their laws, pay their taxes AND FULLY INTEGRATE, and immerse INTO A COMMUNITY. No doubt someone will disagree with my views but that is their right. As a final note there are lots of british who use the system in the same , never worked , no intentions of doing so, because they can have a good life at the expense of the taxpayer.


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## patient man (Feb 14, 2010)

The problem with the health service is the amount of non medical staff and managers who are not required, it seems to have a job for the boys attitude


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## patient man (Feb 14, 2010)

we are landing late oct then coming back to finalise things in the uk and hope to finally move early 2011


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## patient man (Feb 14, 2010)

if you are renting out make sure you have insurance to cover non payments of rent and damage by tenants it costs but worth it, we had tenants in 4 houses and they cost us a fortune


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

patient man said:


> The problem with the health service is the amount of non medical staff and managers who are not required, it seems to have a job for the boys attitude


and too many foreign specialists who are milking the system for all they are worth. They maintain long waiting lists for their own ends - "I'm sorry but there is a three month (or longer) waiting list, but if you wish to go 'private' I can treat you next week!" The b****rds are then using NHS facilities to carry out their 'private' consultations and treatments and, since they are tying up the NHS facilities that puts more pressure on the waiting list!

There are also too many non-productive hangers-on and management surveys for quality of this and of that instead of just getting the job done.


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## JerryH (Apr 18, 2010)

patient man said:


> we are landing late oct then coming back to finalise things in the uk and hope to finally move early 2011


Just as we'll be going back to Europe !


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## Jennianne (Feb 8, 2010)

We r renting to my hubbys sister so should be fine was going to change insurance


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## Welcan82 (Aug 8, 2010)

As with many others, my main reasons for leaving would also be over-crowding, lack of a stable economy (compared to Canada where I hope to move) and mainly the way the country is run (or not run as the case may be!). We have no real income as a country, as others have mentioned our industries are all but gone, and we can't compete in the financial sector for much longer, not when the wealth and power is slowly but surely shifting from west to east. We have nothing more to sell, yet the vast majority of our resources are imported, it doesn't take a genius to work out that the UK is headed down the pan, and unlike others, I belive there will be no recovery. At best we will end up as a poor state being bailed out and carried by the EU. 
I also noted that most arguements for staying in the UK are generally of a sentimental nature. There are very few practical reasons to stay/move here. Yes, ethnic diversity can be good, but we're beyond the point of ethnic diversity, we're swamped. And besides, ethnic diversity can be found almost anywhere in the western world by now.
On the flip side, I will say that the cost of living isn't as bad as some may claim, especially when compared with the likes of say Belgium or Norway to name just two examples. And we do have the NHS, but that only counts for so much in my eyes, especially when you see how poorly it works. 
All in all, for me it's a no-brainer. I could never understand how someone who has no sentimental ties with the UK would want to move here!


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## JerryH (Apr 18, 2010)

Welcan82 said:


> As with many others, my main reasons for leaving would also be over-crowding, lack of a stable economy (compared to Canada where I hope to move) and mainly the way the country is run (or not run as the case may be!). We have no real income as a country, as others have mentioned our industries are all but gone, and we can't compete in the financial sector for much longer, not when the wealth and power is slowly but surely shifting from west to east. We have nothing more to sell, yet the vast majority of our resources are imported, it doesn't take a genius to work out that the UK is headed down the pan, and unlike others, I belive there will be no recovery. At best we will end up as a poor state being bailed out and carried by the EU.
> I also noted that most arguements for staying in the UK are generally of a sentimental nature. There are very few practical reasons to stay/move here. Yes, ethnic diversity can be good, but we're beyond the point of ethnic diversity, we're swamped. And besides, ethnic diversity can be found almost anywhere in the western world by now.
> On the flip side, I will say that the cost of living isn't as bad as some may claim, especially when compared with the likes of say Belgium or Norway to name just two examples. And we do have the NHS, but that only counts for so much in my eyes, especially when you see how poorly it works.
> All in all, for me it's a no-brainer. I could never understand how someone who has no sentimental ties with the UK would want to move here!


You'll likely miss the sense of history, culture and most importantly social and interactive community. 

If you class community and attitude to life as sentimental and want zero connection with the people around you, then you'll get on fine. Also there is another big down side here, the proximity to a certain country which produces a huge number of obnoxious tourists who regularly swamp the place with their usual behaviours observed the world over.


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## Welcan82 (Aug 8, 2010)

Obnoxious tourists? Don't know who you could mean! Seriously though, I hadn't considered that... well noted

As for attitude to life and community, I wouldn't say they're all that great in the UK to be honest, and I didn't think it would be so bad in Canada, going on the accounts of others. In what way do you mean zero connection with the people around you? I've always found the Canadians to be quite friendly... although I haven't met all that many.


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## JerryH (Apr 18, 2010)

Welcan82 said:


> Obnoxious tourists? Don't know who you could mean! Seriously though, I hadn't considered that... well noted


It is a factor I found, just depends on how it effects you and how you deal with it I suppose.



Welcan82 said:


> As for attitude to life and community, I wouldn't say they're all that great in the UK to be honest, and I didn't think it would be so bad in Canada, going on the accounts of others.


I won't say it's bad, though it's very different for sure, much more American than European, as you'd expect given the history and location/geography etc.



Welcan82 said:


> In what way do you mean zero connection with the people around you? I've always found the Canadians to be quite friendly... although I haven't met all that many.


In the 5~ years I've been here from the UK, I've found people much more stand offish and less connected as a community than I have in various places I've lived. There is the usual North American "Oh I'm a {insert county nationality here}" as well, even if they've never been there. It's akin to most of Boston claiming to be Irish even though they are American and have never been there, "of Irish descent" for sure, are Irish, nope.

I find things are geared much more towards the individual, iPhone, iMe, iLife it would seem opposed to community centres, getting to know your neighbours ....... let alone decent pubs where you can have a chat !! .... vary majority of places are sports bars with a million TVs and deafening music, plagued by a staff plastic corporate drones who thing that service is about bland conformity and margins, opposed to personality and relationships etc.

I.e. a society that is structured towards isolation opposed to community integration, not as bad as my experiences south of the border, though present non the less.

I'm glad I came, learnt about the place and people, and will have another nationality by the time I leave, but it's just not real enough to end my days here or grow and learn in the mean time. Let alone be part of a community.


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## Welcan82 (Aug 8, 2010)

Thanks for the insight, something well worth noting. Is it only Vancouver you've lived in or have you lived anywhere else in Canada?

As for pubs etc, I probably wouldn't find this to be too much of a problem, as I tend not to spend much time at the pub anyhow. I tend to try to meet people through sporting activities and various groups etc. Hopefully these will open some doors for me ...only one way to find out I suppose. 

I certainly appreciate what you're saying about the staff in bars/diners etc, I drove accross the 'States last year from coast to coast, and encountered it along every step of the way, I'm sure it would get quite tiring after a while. The only place I found people to be a bit more 'genuine' was around Wisconsin/Minnesota sort of area, where people seemed a little more warm and open. I'm hoping to find somewhere similar in Canada, hence why I'm looking at Saskathcewan/Manitoba, for their smaller agricultural communities.


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## JerryH (Apr 18, 2010)

Welcan82 said:


> Thanks for the insight, something well worth noting. Is it only Vancouver you've lived in or have you lived anywhere else in Canada?


I've only live here, though travelled about.



Welcan82 said:


> As for pubs etc, I probably wouldn't find this to be too much of a problem, as I tend not to spend much time at the pub anyhow. I tend to try to meet people through sporting activities and various groups etc. Hopefully these will open some doors for me ...only one way to find out I suppose.


Indeed, there lots of other things going on of course, I just use that as a reference as most people can socially relate to it from the UK, so having it abruptly removed or absent is a good way of explaining what it's like socially. 



Welcan82 said:


> I certainly appreciate what you're saying about the staff in bars/diners etc, I drove accross the 'States last year from coast to coast, and encountered it along every step of the way, I'm sure it would get quite tiring after a while.


Oh it does, one of the main reasons I'm off, things are ...... for want of a better word, quite shallow on most of this continent. 



Welcan82 said:


> The only place I found people to be a bit more 'genuine' was around Wisconsin/Minnesota sort of area, where people seemed a little more warm and open. I'm hoping to find somewhere similar in Canada, hence why I'm looking at Saskathcewan/Manitoba, for their smaller agricultural communities.


I think those kinds of places will likely be better, though remoteness tends to bring on it's own certain world view and saturation of religious views, might be worth making sure they match your own or that you have access to the kind of support that you're used to.


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## Welcan82 (Aug 8, 2010)

Sounds like you've experienced a fair bit on you travels, the insight is very much appreciated, these are the kind of things that most people would overlook when considering a new country. 
I'm off to Canada for 3 weeks on wednesday, diving from Toronto to Vancouver so should get get a bit of a taste for what areas I prefer. I know what you mean about the various views that come with some more remote communities, I suppose it depends on how extreme their views are. I'm more of a small town person anyway, so I may find that my values and theirs aren't so different ...I could be quite wrong though!


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## Ico (Feb 4, 2009)

*UK life?*



jojo said:


> Sadly, progress has come in and opened up a world where people want to move around, travel and are moving away from their roots and their communities. Its sad but progress. The one thing that has happened in amongst all that is the lack of respect and manners - they've almost gone!! The politeness has gone - Even silly things like shaking hands, being called mr. or mrs. whatever, first names are more often than not used these days, even policemen now are being called by their first names to make them less menacing - but wasnt it that respect and that "menacing" feeling that kept everyone in their place?? In the UK we've gone too soft and have lost respect, not only for one another, but for ourselves - sadly I think its spreading across the globe
> 
> Jo xxx


I totally agree with you Ms. Jo , but a lot of what you lament is to do with drugs and unlicensed booze. It would be interesting to check what percentage of the population it is not possible to reason with 3 evenings out of 7. :-(


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## helricha (Sep 18, 2010)

I'm glad I stopped reading this thread after the first three pages. I'm not sure if it got any better or any worse but gads! In all honesty, what I read makes me want to vomit! 
I can give you a million bad things about living in different places but anyone who is going to move to the UK, even if for a few years should seriously avoid reading this thread. It could really dampen your mood. 

Don't worry though my fellow humans...I'm determined as ever that I'll be living in the UK for a few years and the negativity didn't get to me. But for those others out there: BEWARE!


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## johnnyvegas (Sep 19, 2010)

australia or britain .hmmmmm...........cant beleive anyone would want to get out of australia as there is a climate to suit every taste.

britain does have some nice areas but unfortunately very few people can afford to live in them, hence everyone is morgaged to the hilt and miserable 

people in shops/cafes etc in australia actually seem pleased to see you


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## Ico (Feb 4, 2009)

OK, so far the thread has been about UK in general: anybody got something to say about moving to SCOTLAND? Thanks.


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## Jennianne (Feb 8, 2010)

I live in scotland what do u want to know???





Ico said:


> OK, so far the thread has been about UK in general: anybody got something to say about moving to SCOTLAND? Thanks.


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## johnnyvegas (Sep 19, 2010)

some would say scotland is a different country ......you should have mentioned that before lol
now we need an area , as it varies a lot......lots of biting insects and rain on the west coast and more sun on the east with raspberry growing


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## JimJams (Jan 11, 2010)

I've not read with all the posts (there's a lot of them!), but my 2 cents..

I've lived here all my life and have met a lot of people from all walk of life from lots of different countries. A lot move here from money (they are from 3rd world countries and want a better future for their family), and a lot of Ozzies and Kiwi's move here to earn money and travel Europe. Some settle here and some eventually move back.

But people seem to be moving both to Uk and away from UK. You will always get people who love it here and others who hate it for the exact same reason! The same reasons I want to move from the UK, i will speak to someone from US and they want to move away for the exact same reasons! I think your title says it all, life always does seem greener on the other side... but live anywhere for long enough and you will find certain aspects that you will hate... you just need to hope the pro's outweigh the con's!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

I agree with what a lot of people say that UK has a lot of lovely scenery (not dramatic, it is true, just lovely) and a lot of history. The people have changed so much in the 69 years of my life. It used to be that people would be kind, generous and helpful especially during WWII and for a number of years after - money was tight and you had to work and save up for what you wanted. If anyone had spare produce from their garden or a piece of furniture/an unwanted radio, etc. it was passed on to someone else who needed it.

Then came easy credit and the desire to get everything NOW! The Playstation/Xbox, etc. that little Johnny just had to have for his birthday/Christmas present and which you put on the credit card lies trashed in the corner the next day and you still haven't cleared that amount off your credit card. Nobody seems to value anything these days, there is no respect for the lives or property of others. "What's it got to do with _you_ that I am smashing _your_ car windows/putting _your_ cat in the spin-dryer/tearing out _your_ prize geraniums? *I* am having fun!" That just about sums up what is wrong in the UK - it is all about "me", what "I" want, "what can YOU do for ME" when it used to be "what can I do for YOU?" 

I moved out to Spain 2 years ago and, here, it is still "what can I do for YOU?" Many of the locals have a piece of ground where they grow fruit and vegetables, and as with most things of that nature, harvest time means there is a surplus so you either let it rot or pass it onto someone else who doesn't have a plot or has a different surplus - they don't let it rot!!

I hope this clarifies the matter for those who are unsure why many Brits have moved out - we aren't complaining about the country as such, just the people who have changed from a generally hard-working population who would work when work was available to a hoard of lazy good-for-nothings who will sit on their backsides and live off the state rather than take a job or lift a finger to contribute to the economy/society. Even as a pensioner, I still have to pay taxes to keep those scroungers on the dole! At least I don't have to live next door to them any more!

End of Rant!


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## paul_william (Aug 3, 2010)

jojo said:


> The reasons I left the UK, in no particular order are
> 
> Lack of Space
> too full, too many people in such a country
> ...


yes , i am agree with you. UK becomes so conjugated and too rush..


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2011)

*Yes life is Greener in UK - But ONLY if you have a lot of GREEN...$$$$£££*

Just came across this thread and thought I might add a bit too. Life is good in UK only and ONLY if you have at least £5 million to live and invest there....of course this is also the low end but if you have £10-£20 million or more then it gets really good....otherwise don't bother with UK if you want to live like a commoner there. It's very dangerous, way tooooo much crime, if you are non-white then you will face lots of racism from institutions, people, job etc.... the only way to live in UK is if you are a big time multi-millionaire and can invest, do big business or just live and enjoy a POSH nasty upper class lifestyle. I Have to say that UK does offer the best of everything but it comes at a PRICE - in Europe UK Is the most advanced country when it comes to buying goods and services - so if you got the money its the best place for you....unfortunately even with all the luxuries I felt very stuck there and wanted to experience a proper "culture" so I moved to France. UK's culture has gone down the drain, there is a serious lack of freedom because of the police state mentality and a lot of bullying / harassment going on especially by low level government official, police, etc...but then again if you are a multi-millionaire and enjoy a FLASHY lifestyle...the best restaurants... the best shopping...the best of everything then it is a great place to live...at least part of the year as a Base. Oh and you must be able to fly in and out PRIVATELY...using public airports and public air transportation in UK sucks big time...it's a huge harassing experience.


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## Mervinia N (Aug 28, 2011)

I have lived in the UK all my life, North of England, Scotland and now settled down South. I have travelled all over Europe & the US but love coming back ' home'. My boyfriend is American and hoping to move here soon and I'll make damn sure he doesn't read this thread as the sweeping statements made about the UK and it's apparent population solely comprising of mindless, lazy, benefit scrounging, materialistic, good for nothing layabouts that inhabit it's lush green lands (its only plus point apparently) might just make him rethink life here.
I am in no way denying the UK's problems, I despair of them sometimes too but to write off a country & tar 60 million people with the same brush is just ridiculous.
I don't have millions and am just a 'commoner' but my life is good. I have used various UK airports on my travels and have never had any major problems yet don't have a private jet to whisk me away and, my life is still good. My eldest goes to a great junior school, my youngest to an equally good pre-school yet I don't pay a penny. I have had great hospital care, both NHS and private, including saving the lives of me and my youngest son during childbirth. I have had very little personal experience with crime and own my house, have a full time job, great friends and neighbours and love my life. Btw, I'm not in some rural village but a fairly large town yet... and you'll not believe this... I say hi to people who say hello back and pop round my elderly neighbours to check they're ok and when the snows hit last winter, everyone went out together and cleared our road. The kids play out together, the families help each other and while this might be considered rare, I bet this way of life exists in more places in the UK than some would care to believe.
I appreciate that the UK has changed over the 35 years of my life but I have adapted and changed with it. Time passes, things change and to those of you who'd had enough or didn't like it, congrats on getting out and finding where you wanted to be... but life is what you make it. Yes, it's not what it used to be and there is the bad in every situation but that doesn't make the good less good.
For the OP... an open mind, a willingness to try and a positive attitude goes a huge way to helping you settle and decide if the UK is right for you but as others said, research where you are going, get a realistic view of the area and remember that the UK is not all doom & gloom and it's inhabitants vary as much as its weather (ok, you got me on the weather but hey, it's a sma
ll, upper Northern hemisphere island on the edge of the Atlantic, it was never going to be wall to wall sunshine but that doesn't mean life stops because of the rain... you just get wet  ) and if you really hate it, you can always leave as many others have shown... but I hope you're as happy here as I am (and hopefully my boyfriend will be too  )


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

*Settled down south* Traitor!!!!!


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2011)

Mervinia N said:


> I have lived in the UK all my life, North of England, Scotland and now settled down South. I have travelled all over Europe & the US but love coming back ' home'. My boyfriend is American and hoping to move here soon and I'll make damn sure he doesn't read this thread as the sweeping statements made about the UK and it's apparent population solely comprising of mindless, lazy, benefit scrounging, materialistic, good for nothing layabouts that inhabit it's lush green lands (its only plus point apparently) might just make him rethink life here.
> I am in no way denying the UK's problems, I despair of them sometimes too but to write off a country & tar 60 million people with the same brush is just ridiculous.
> I don't have millions and am just a 'commoner' but my life is good. I have used various UK airports on my travels and have never had any major problems yet don't have a private jet to whisk me away and, my life is still good. My eldest goes to a great junior school, my youngest to an equally good pre-school yet I don't pay a penny. I have had great hospital care, both NHS and private, including saving the lives of me and my youngest son during childbirth. I have had very little personal experience with crime and own my house, have a full time job, great friends and neighbours and love my life. Btw, I'm not in some rural village but a fairly large town yet... and you'll not believe this... I say hi to people who say hello back and pop round my elderly neighbours to check they're ok and when the snows hit last winter, everyone went out together and cleared our road. The kids play out together, the families help each other and while this might be considered rare, I bet this way of life exists in more places in the UK than some would care to believe.
> I appreciate that the UK has changed over the 35 years of my life but I have adapted and changed with it. Time passes, things change and to those of you who'd had enough or didn't like it, congrats on getting out and finding where you wanted to be... but life is what you make it. Yes, it's not what it used to be and there is the bad in every situation but that doesn't make the good less good.
> ...



Try getting a visa for your BF from USA to come settle with you in UK - your opinion will quickly change then. Also I am sure where you live is all nice and peaceful and "white" but even as a wealthy foreigner try living anywhere in UK outside London and even in London anything outside Kensington. Chelsea, Belgravia, Mayfair - is quite dangerous and full of crime and racism. Sorry in my opinion UK is the biggest ****$%^& on this planet - it is the most racist country in the world I have experienced and only "fair" on paper. In reality there are far toooo many problems with the UK to deal with... and they are not just racist towards Indians but even towards Eastern as well as Western Europeans. I have french and italian friends living and working in UK and even they are fed up with the bullying they go through on a day to day basis. Yes some British people are polite and sweet I fully agree.... but I am sorry the majority are not, in my experience also British women are nicer than the Men... the men tend to be very aggressive, hateful and nasty. In the US there is less hatred and even in continental Europe most people don't care really... but UK has really gone bad now. It has nothing to do with the immigrants moving in as UK still has less than 9% foreign/non-white population - the majority are still white british whereas USA, and many other EU countries have much more immigrants yet there are less problems especially hatred towards immigrants of all kinds. Also in the UK they don't understand the difference between an Asylum seeker and a wealthy foreign investor - yes all immigrants in UK also get painted with the same brush - and all are treated just as badly by the authorities unless like I said you have so much money that you can afford to travel in and out of UK through private channels as well as hire bodyguards to protect you and lawyers to escort you otherwise UK makes life hell for foreigners now. Even a thing like driving across England in a car all alone being a non-white person is risky there - the police will stop you a 100 times and harass you and intimidate you and talk to you in a overly suspicious way. UK has become the land of suspicions - they think every Asian is a terrorist and treat people very badly, anyway it will all bite the government sooner or later and already is because millions of people avoid visiting the UK only now because of all their issues. In my opinion it's really a bad country to live with a BAD BAD energy now - so even if I had millions and millions I would not put my money or life there anymore.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

The United Kingdom is a free country, and being a free country, if you do not like life, the weather, the Police, or the people therein, you are free to leave and go and live in another place.


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## Mervinia N (Aug 28, 2011)

Wow! I hope you've managed to leave this hell hole and found somewhere that you feel safe and happy. 
While I accept that there are areas of society who carry unfounded, abhorrent levels of racism, my point was that this is not a blanket, one size fits all behaviour for everyone who lives here and does not warrant writing off the entire country or every member of the population. 
oh, and FYI... I live in a multi cultural area, have friends of different races and religions yet you choose to assume that I am living in my perfectly white suburb with my blinkered white view. Who's jumping to the stereotype now? It is exactly this 'everyone is the same' mentality which annoys me, and I mean that in all directions... from 'all English are racists' to 'all arabs are terrorists' as you put it. I would rather that someone got to know me than take how I look and label me and I would offer the same respect to any other person I meet... Personal experiences make us who WE are, they do not define everybody else! The UK is not completely racist, is not completely worthless and not somewhere people should avoid at all costs and it is exactly this mentality that I hoped to balance out


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Moving2France said:


> Just came across this thread and thought I might add a bit too. Life is good in UK only and ONLY if you have at least £5 million to live and invest there....of course this is also the low end but if you have £10-£20 million or more then it gets really good....otherwise don't bother with UK if you want to live like a commoner there. It's very dangerous, way tooooo much crime, if you are non-white then you will face lots of racism from institutions, people, job etc.... the only way to live in UK is if you are a big time multi-millionaire and can invest, do big business or just live and enjoy a POSH nasty upper class lifestyle. I Have to say that UK does offer the best of everything but it comes at a PRICE - in Europe UK Is the most advanced country when it comes to buying goods and services - so if you got the money its the best place for you....unfortunately even with all the luxuries I felt very stuck there and wanted to experience a proper "culture" so I moved to France. UK's culture has gone down the drain, there is a serious lack of freedom because of the police state mentality and a lot of bullying / harassment going on especially by low level government official, police, etc...but then again if you are a multi-millionaire and enjoy a FLASHY lifestyle...the best restaurants... the best shopping...the best of everything then it is a great place to live...at least part of the year as a Base. Oh and you must be able to fly in and out PRIVATELY...using public airports and public air transportation in UK sucks big time...it's a huge harassing experience.


I am no fan of the UK, but for all the reasons that seem to be totally opposite yours - Where is the England you're talking about ????? Cos the one I am in is not anything like your description above????

Jo xxx


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## mishkab (Feb 15, 2011)

Moving2France said:


> Just came across this thread and thought I might add a bit too. Life is good in UK only and ONLY if you have at least £5 million to live and invest there....of course this is also the low end but if you have £10-£20 million or more then it gets really good....otherwise don't bother with UK if you want to live like a commoner there. It's very dangerous, way tooooo much crime, if you are non-white then you will face lots of racism from institutions, people, job etc.... the only way to live in UK is if you are a big time multi-millionaire and can invest, do big business or just live and enjoy a POSH nasty upper class lifestyle. I Have to say that UK does offer the best of everything but it comes at a PRICE - in Europe UK Is the most advanced country when it comes to buying goods and services - so if you got the money its the best place for you....unfortunately even with all the luxuries I felt very stuck there and wanted to experience a proper "culture" so I moved to France. UK's culture has gone down the drain, there is a serious lack of freedom because of the police state mentality and a lot of bullying / harassment going on especially by low level government official, police, etc...but then again if you are a multi-millionaire and enjoy a FLASHY lifestyle...the best restaurants... the best shopping...the best of everything then it is a great place to live...at least part of the year as a Base. Oh and you must be able to fly in and out PRIVATELY...using public airports and public air transportation in UK sucks big time...it's a huge harassing experience.


Wow... how very interesting!

I just left France for the UK and I feel like you're doing a good job of describing the France that I just left behind!


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## Mervinia N (Aug 28, 2011)

mishkab said:


> Wow... how very interesting!
> 
> I just left France for the UK and I feel like you're doing a good job of describing the France that I just left behind!


exactly! It is all about perception! We are all individuals, we all see and want different things and right now, here is just where I want to be and if people don't like the place... close the door on the way out ;-)


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Mervinia N said:


> exactly! It is all about perception! We are all individuals, we all see and want different things and right now, here is just where I want to be and if people don't like the place... close the door on the way out ;-)


Thats the point, we all want and like different things!

jo xxx


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Mervinia N said:


> I have lived in the UK all my life, North of England, Scotland and now settled down South. I have travelled all over Europe & the US but love coming back ' home'. My boyfriend is American and hoping to move here soon and I'll make damn sure he doesn't read this thread as the sweeping statements made about the UK and it's apparent population solely comprising of mindless, lazy, benefit scrounging, materialistic, good for nothing layabouts that inhabit it's lush green lands (its only plus point apparently) might just make him rethink life here.
> I am in no way denying the UK's problems, I despair of them sometimes too but to write off a country & tar 60 million people with the same brush is just ridiculous.
> I don't have millions and am just a 'commoner' but my life is good. I have used various UK airports on my travels and have never had any major problems yet don't have a private jet to whisk me away and, my life is still good. My eldest goes to a great junior school, my youngest to an equally good pre-school yet I don't pay a penny. I have had great hospital care, both NHS and private, including saving the lives of me and my youngest son during childbirth. I have had very little personal experience with crime and own my house, have a full time job, great friends and neighbours and love my life. Btw, I'm not in some rural village but a fairly large town yet... and you'll not believe this... I say hi to people who say hello back and pop round my elderly neighbours to check they're ok and when the snows hit last winter, everyone went out together and cleared our road. The kids play out together, the families help each other and while this might be considered rare, I bet this way of life exists in more places in the UK than some would care to believe.
> I appreciate that the UK has changed over the 35 years of my life but I have adapted and changed with it. Time passes, things change and to those of you who'd had enough or didn't like it, congrats on getting out and finding where you wanted to be... but life is what you make it. Yes, it's not what it used to be and there is the bad in every situation but that doesn't make the good less good.
> ...


Ah but you've only served 35 years and only started after the rot had started! In my 70 years, I have seen the Britain I knew go downhill. When I was young there was respect, respect for other people and their property. The police, for example were respected, the aged and the young were all respected, even most politicians!

From the early 50s onwards, that started to change and in many cases even, for some, from the late 40s. Men and women who had come through WWII fighting for their country, their homes, their way of life came back to find what? No work, slackers and "draft dodgers" (ingrowing toenail?), spivs and slackers all far better off than those who had "done their bit". 

Education was still quite good, even if held back a bit by old pensioned off teachers who had been recalled to the blackboard for the war to release able-bodied men and then couldn't be got rid of. You had to pass proper exams to get any qualification. GCE marking was on the basis that x% of those taking the exam should pass, the rest should fail (there was none of the A grade down through F where E was considered a "pass", and F a "Fail") so the pass mark (nominally 49%) varied up and down so that x% passed, on the reasoning that if more that x% had 49%+ the exam must have been easier, if fewer than x%, the exam must have been harder and so the pass mark varied up or down accordingly to allow for the severity of the exam and so that the required x% passed.

Even with this seemingly fair and equitable system, results deteriorated because the younger qualified teachers who had come back from the war and found their jobs were no longer available had taken jobs in industry which were much better paid and available. The old teachers were dying off (many had war injuries from WWI - one of my chemistry masters was always in a bad way having been gassed) or had to be pensioned off because they were no longer up to the job and a rapidly trained batch of bright new teachers were rolling off the training college production lines and pressed into immediate service. To be honest, they just did not have much of a clue either about the subjects they were teaching or about how to teach. History classes for me majored on Julius Cæsar et al and the Romans, floundered into the dark ages, the middle ages and ended with Robert Walpole - nothing later. Whereas history as we all know should be taught the other way round with the major part of the curriculum on the more recent events which have the greatest influence on the present day with the older stuff as background. 

So you have, basically, a dumbing down of education, a loss of respect for almost anyone (including, in the case of many teenagers, one's own parents) anything and everything, other people's property, other people, and in many cases oneself leading to vandalism, petty crime, flouting the law (motoring in particular) and so on.

I had just had enough and decided to move to somewhere where there was still respect which is why we are here!

What was the final straw? - sitting in a restaurant and suddenly finding a large blob of ice-cream landing on my suit jacket thrown by a kid at the table in the corner. When I dared to make any comment the child's father started shouting at me for being in the way of his child's ice cream! Two weeks later, my wife and I were on holiday and had called into a restaurant in Spain for Sunday lunch. Whole families were sitting down together and we (obvious tourists) were approached by children from one of the families and who greeted us and said welcome (they had been learning English at school) from the family and a large jug of "Tinto de verano" appeared on the table for us as a gift from the family with many calls of "Salud". That was five years ago and that restaurant is about 20km away.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> Ah but you've only served 35 years and only started after the rot had started! In my 70 years, I have seen the Britain I knew go downhill. When I was young there was respect, respect for other people and their property. The police, for example were respected, the aged and the young were all respected, even most politicians!
> 
> From the early 50s onwards, that started to change and in many cases even, for some, from the late 40s. Men and women who had come through WWII fighting for their country, their homes, their way of life came back to find what? No work, slackers and "draft dodgers" (ingrowing toenail?), spivs and slackers all far better off than those who had "done their bit".
> 
> ...



This is exactly what I saw in UK too - the young people of modern Britain are not only lacking in basic manners but are also violent and dangerous many times. They have no respect for elders even their own parents - I blame all this on the extreme form of capitalism UK has adopted in the past 20 years....Parents are busy running after money and neglecting kids and those kids are growing up to shape the British society today. The British Media is also to blame for how kids are influenced. I was shocked once when I saw outside a Tube station the police were confiscating knives and sharp objects that teenagers were carrying and I had a look at the basket full of weapons they had confiscated...it was a scary sight...because there were toooo many such knives that the police had confiscated....like these kids were going to some battle field. What are these kids doing carrying around such things in public?? I doubt they are going to some kitchen class to learn how to cut potatoes? I lived in Kensington and twice I saw stabbing scenes closed up by the police and the body of the victim outlined by a white marker and blood stains on the concrete....and this is in the poshest area of London. Go out on the streets of London on a friday night or saturday night and even in Leicester square see the drunk behaviour - it's scary....these people are violent aggressive and out of control ...I NEVER saw this in France or Italy or Spain or any other western European country. French kids are much more polite and sweeter, and they have basic manners at least... in France there is a strong emphasis on education and the government supports child birth as well as child upbringing by offering many incentives and shorter working hours for parents so that children are not neglected. In UK this has become a huge problem and the high divorce rate makes it worse. 

Lastly, if London is bad then such problems in cities like liverpool, manchester, glasgow are a 100 times even worse.... why is Britain such a violent society today???


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2011)

P.S. - a lot of Brits on here feel attacked by my comments and take it personally - please I have nothing against anyone in particular, I do think Britain is a violent country and it's not just me - the United Nations has quoted UK as the most violent country in Europe and even more violent than South Africa and USA. 

The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S. | Mail Online

I feel very unsafe and nervous even visiting the UK - but then again I think many Brits feel the same way and thats why they left to live in Spain or somewhere else that is safer and sunnier. I enjoy meeting most older British people, they are very well behaved, polite and good hearted - it's the new generation that I am very disappointed with but then again there are some who are good. I certainly do not tar all British people with the same brush - and can tell the difference between different kinds of Brits.... I do have a lot of British friends too.


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## Mervinia N (Aug 28, 2011)

I wholeheartedly agree with you Moving regarding the state of the UK and it's younger generation... but what your last post and subsequent P.S. include that was missing from your earlier post is an expression that it is not ALL young people or ALL of Britain or EVERYONE feeling the same way and this was my point.
London, Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester are large cities and in relation to the problems they face, these exist in Paris, Barcelona, Madrid... perhaps not to the degree of the UK major cities but people will always tell you there are places to avoid at night/on your own/as a foreigner. I have heard first hand of more petty crime from friends and family visiting major cities abroad than ever at home in the UK.
However, the UK is more than just a handful of major cities and that was my point... yes the problems exist but NOT everywhere - you cannot compare villages and small towns with huge metropolises... yes, the current 16-30 generation has those issues listed by you & others but NOT every one in that age range carries a knife or lacks respect and manners. One of the major things that annoys some teenagers right now is how they get treated... they're expected to be rude, violent, disrespectful even when they've never behaved in such a way. A blanket view being held against every teenager irrespective of who they really are.
I was just balancing these blanket views of the UK being ALL bad and its citizens ALL being workshy, rude and violent. Both you Moving & Baldilocks have expanded on why you feel the way that you do and it gives perspective to the way you feel. Mishkab posted that they found your description of the UK reflected their feelings about France. That again was the point I was making, it is perspective to the individual based upon personal experience. It is sad that the experience you had was so horrible, making you feel the need to leave and Baldilocks has twice the personal experience I do so this reflects in the reasons for his decision to leave the UK (and very interesting it was too - thank you Baldilocks). I believe we agree on the inherent issues at hand, however our viewpoints come from decidely different angles based on what we have experienced and the OP will form their opinion if and when they experience the country.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

I would add that I was born in a village near a seaside town (not an inner city) and have lived quite a lot of my life there (the town). When we were back in UK a couple of years ago, we, quite honestly, were very uncomfortable (felt very vulnerable and threatened - school had just come out!) just being in the, now pedestrianised (you wouldn't think it with the number of bicycles being ridden, skateboards and rollerblades), High Street and couldn't get away fast enough.


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## GenXer (Sep 11, 2011)

I just have to say, if the intention here was to scare the bejesus out of anyone who was considering moving to the UK, you've done a great job! I have serious concerns now whereas before I read this thread, I was 99% sure.
Going to gather my thoughts....


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

GenXer said:


> I just have to say, if the intention here was to scare the bejesus out of anyone who was considering moving to the UK, you've done a great job! I have serious concerns now whereas before I read this thread, I was 99% sure.
> Going to gather my thoughts....


Rose-coloured spectacles can prove very expensive so it is better to go into something fearing the worst and finding out that it wasn't as bad as you were prepared for. 

The videos and photos of the recent riots should have given you a pretty good idea of what might be possible in some places, but then if you only ever saw pictures of morris dancers on the village green you would have a totally wrong picture.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

GenXer said:


> I just have to say, if the intention here was to scare the bejesus out of anyone who was considering moving to the UK, you've done a great job! I have serious concerns now whereas before I read this thread, I was 99% sure.
> Going to gather my thoughts....



I've recently moved back to the UK from Spain. It can be uncomfortable if you wander the streets at night, but I've not come across any violence. On a day to day basis, people tend to scurry to wherever they have to go and in the evenings close their front doors and watch TV. Half the time its too cold and wet to go anywhere anyway. Its not so much violence itself, its the fear of possible confrontations that seems to be the issue IMO. And the UK is soooooo soft on offenders that there really isnt much of a deterrent should they wish to do anything untoward - and yes, the latest generation here do seem to have a "If I want it I'll just take it" attitude. The difference from how relaxed and safe things feel in Spain is huge!

I have noticed the sound of police sirens has quadrupled + since I lived in the UK four years ago - but that doesnt necessarily signify violence. And of course, there are some quiet areas that are still probably safe and as things were

Jo xxx


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Cold and wet - same as most of Northern Europe, only not as cold - no need for snow tires like half of Germany

Crime - same as most of Northern Europe, and not as bad as Club Med - you'll keep your wallet and phone longer in London than you will Barcelona

Dark and claustrophobic - try Finland in the middle of winter.

Cleanliness - pretty clean. Try Delhi.

Safety - you are top of the food chain, try the Outback.

What I am saying is that every place has its good and bad. Don't ask Brits what they think, they're constantly kicking their own arses about everything. If a few more of them travelled they might see that the grass is not greener.

If you have the intelligence, talent and work ethic to make a go of life wherever you find yourself, then go ahead and seek out the place that fits best with what you are looking for. Be aware though, wherever you find yourself you might up-end like a large % of the expats I know:

- read their home country's news every day
- watch their home country's TV
- seek out and spend time with other expats in their locale
- miss the people they left behind and spend their evenings on Skype with them
- never really feel part of those communities that attracted them to where they went

It's the expat way of life, and you can either do it, or you can't.


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## Mervinia N (Aug 28, 2011)

Horlics said:


> Cold and wet - same as most of Northern Europe, only not as cold - no need for snow tires like half of Germany
> 
> Crime - same as most of Northern Europe, and not as bad as Club Med - you'll keep your wallet and phone longer in London than you will Barcelona
> 
> ...


 

Great post! just what I was trying to explain but yours was about 1000 words less than my ramblings ;-)


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

See:
UK 'Is Worst Place To Live In Europe' - Yahoo!


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## Maltoo (Sep 18, 2011)

Mervinia N said:


> I have lived in the UK all my life, North of England, Scotland and now settled down South. I have travelled all over Europe & the US but love coming back ' home'. My boyfriend is American and hoping to move here soon and I'll make damn sure he doesn't read this thread as the sweeping statements made about the UK and it's apparent population solely comprising of mindless, lazy, benefit scrounging, materialistic, good for nothing layabouts that inhabit it's lush green lands (its only plus point apparently) might just make him rethink life here.
> I am in no way denying the UK's problems, I despair of them sometimes too but to write off a country & tar 60 million people with the same brush is just ridiculous.
> I don't have millions and am just a 'commoner' but my life is good. I have used various UK airports on my travels and have never had any major problems yet don't have a private jet to whisk me away and, my life is still good. My eldest goes to a great junior school, my youngest to an equally good pre-school yet I don't pay a penny. I have had great hospital care, both NHS and private, including saving the lives of me and my youngest son during childbirth. I have had very little personal experience with crime and own my house, have a full time job, great friends and neighbours and love my life. Btw, I'm not in some rural village but a fairly large town yet... and you'll not believe this... I say hi to people who say hello back and pop round my elderly neighbours to check they're ok and when the snows hit last winter, everyone went out together and cleared our road. The kids play out together, the families help each other and while this might be considered rare, I bet this way of life exists in more places in the UK than some would care to believe.
> I appreciate that the UK has changed over the 35 years of my life but I have adapted and changed with it. Time passes, things change and to those of you who'd had enough or didn't like it, congrats on getting out and finding where you wanted to be... but life is what you make it. Yes, it's not what it used to be and there is the bad in every situation but that doesn't make the good less good.
> ...


Very well said. Our family is moving to the UK so my husband can be near his family as his parents are getting on and he would like to spend more time with them. We are far from rich we like most Americans live pay check to paycheck and we are self employed and all that means, no paycheck on the 1st and the 15th you get one when the work is done. My family is all gone so nothing keeping us in the US. I have lived all over the world, Navy brat, and as much as I LOVE America, I am sure I will love the UK just as much as I will be there with the 2 people who mean the most to me in the World, my husband and my son.

Yes there are things in the US I will miss..just a few of each

1. Getting a great deal with coupons or mark downs

2. Mexican Food

3. Great Internet (we have blazing fast fiber optics)

4. Sunshine 

Things I won't miss

1. Blazin hot and humid summers

2. Bad schools

3. the corrupt politics


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## PaulAshton (Nov 18, 2011)

I for one would never even entertain the thought of stepping on UK soil for any reason

Based on your income you are taxed to death, depending on your income 30% plus 20% VAT and if applicable capital gains tax, council tax and any other tax you can think about, add onto that TV license. Interest rates are low, I think .25 - 1% and you are taxed on that as well.

So after you work 37.5 - 45 hours or more per week, sit in traffic for 3 hours or more per day.

Then you arrive at your home YOU have bought where you have to pay the repairs while some chav or asylum seeker family who does not want to work lives across from you get's repairs for free, a specially adapted kitchen with a choice of various decor and you have to see how they make the front garden into a junk yard by placing sofas outside. THEN if you are lucky and the weather get's above 20 cel you might have a few hours and have to listen to neighbours who play reggae music and have 4 kids that jump on a trampoline, when they are not doing that the teens act in an anti social manner and if you decide to video it you are declared a pervert.

In your spare time you might decide to surf the internet which is monitored to find stories how the UK is giving billions in aid to some third world country or how some Algerian has been caught getting £400K in benefits (true story) while you struggle to find uni fees or your kids don't get EMA.

Maybe you can have a drive outside and fill up at the petrol station which has inflated prices and go to the park to find some nice area that chavs will have ruined as they have removed the bark from trees or ride around on quad bikes, if you are lucky you can go see some castle with an entrance fee of £20

Have I also failed to forget your every move is watched by CCTV, the council go through your rubbish to see what you have or have not recycled in order to fine you or send you some letter you have placed rubbish out on the wrong day?

Dare you or your teacher reprimand your children in the political correct screwed up placed called "the UK" or slap your dog on the rump with a newspaper - you will be branded an abuser and have a mob descend on your house

The weather is another thing totally...how about replacing your shoes every 6 weeks as they have rotted from the rain or snow or your car rotting from the salt on the roads (if they decide to actually put it out)

It say something if someone says they are happier in Egypt and would not leave even if it turned into another Iran or Libya rather than grace the UK ever again.

I am pleased I am no longer a UK resident in a country run by hypocrites who have ruined a perfectly good country, was it not for the fact I need my passport here I would throw on top the pile of excrement and burn it

The UK can only get WORSE not better


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

PaulAshton said:


> I for one would never even entertain the thought of stepping on UK soil for any reason
> 
> Based on your income you are taxed to death, depending on your income 30% plus 20% VAT and if applicable capital gains tax, council tax and any other tax you can think about, add onto that TV license. Interest rates are low, I think .25 - 1% and you are taxed on that as well.
> 
> ...


So I guess that your "Reply to thread Is life greener in the UK?" would be "No"?


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

I have lived at various times in SE Asia, the USA, Germany & Cyprus. Had great times/experiences in all of them. In time I plan to settle in Malaysia. But my honest heartfelt view is that London is the greatest city in the world by a long shot. When I leave the UK permanently it will be a day tinged with sadness.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

rifleman said:


> I have lived at various times in SE Asia, the USA, Germany & Cyprus. Had great times/experiences in all of them. In time I plan to settle in Malaysia. But my honest heartfelt view is that London is the greatest city in the world by a long shot. When I leave the UK permanently it will be a day tinged with sadness.



"Horses for courses" as they say!!! I think London is a dump! Even the so called "posh" parts are dirty, overcrowded and ugly. Too many cars and grey old buildings! If I have to go there ever again it will be too soon! Just my opinion

Jo xxx


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

That's fine jojo, although factually you are wrong, you are entitled to your opinion. Although the people whose opinions actually matter are here.
As Millwall supporters say "nobody likes us, we don't care"


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I don't think life is Greener in the U.K. It is different and those who wish to reside there should be aware of this and accept the culture for what it is.

Oh yes, I like London too, just can't afford to live there


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

Hepa said:


> I don't think life is Greener in the U.K. It is different and those who wish to reside there should be aware of this and accept the culture for what it is.
> 
> Oh yes, I like London too, just can't afford to live there


Cost is definitely one of the downsides, of which London has its fair share.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Hepa said:


> I don't think life is Greener in the U.K. It is different and those who wish to reside there should be aware of this and accept the culture for what it is.


But it has changed so much from being a caring society when I was young to a selfish and quite frightening one today. I no longer wish to live there and that is why I now live in a Spanish village where the culture is much as I remember it in UK sixty plus years ago.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Sixty years ago, I was, quoting the words of Alan Titchmarsh, "*Nobut a lad*,"


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> But it has changed so much from being a caring society when I was young to a selfish and quite frightening one today. I no longer wish to live there and that is why I now live in a Spanish village where the culture is much as I remember it in UK sixty plus years ago.


Ah, well I am told it wasn't very caring when my unmarried mum had my Black older brother in 1948. It certainly wasn't very caring when I and my younger brother were beaten up at school daily in the 60's and 70s and our schools did nothing about it. That was frightening. Things are far better now. Interesting how our experiences differ.


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## RyanGP (Nov 30, 2011)

jojo said:


> I've recently moved back to the UK from Spain. It can be uncomfortable if you wander the streets at night, but I've not come across any violence. On a day to day basis, people tend to scurry to wherever they have to go and in the evenings close their front doors and watch TV. Half the time its too cold and wet to go anywhere anyway.
> 
> I have noticed the sound of police sirens has quadrupled + since I lived in the UK four years ago - but that doesnt necessarily signify violence. And of course, there are some quiet areas that are still probably safe and as things were
> 
> Jo xxx


I was vacationing in UK 5 years ago and saw NO violence, but then I was mostly outside of London in small villages. I live in Seattle. We have violence here but I can easily avoid those areas. When I look at the UK crime reports and compare them to the US, then the UK looks good: for instance - a recent week in Lostwithiel had 9 "crimes", 4 of which were for "abusive language". Seattle had _hundreds_ of beatings, shootings, burgleries, car thefts, etc, etc.

Here on my street there are 2 dozen homes. The street is about 60% white, 30% asian, and 10% black. I have lived in this house for 19 years and I only know 2 of my neighbors. There are no stores, no pub. If I want do anything at all, I have to get in my car and drive. There's no point in walking 'cause there's nowhere to walk TO. 

I think I would really enjoy the life in a small village in the UK, and hope to move to Devon someday.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Isn't Seattle somewhat larger than Lostwithiel


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## RyanGP (Nov 30, 2011)

Seattle is somewhat larger than, well, anyplace in England except London. The point is, there's a difference between what Brits consider a crime and what we consider a crime. All in all I'd rather endure "abusive language" there than have my door kicked in here as has happened.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

It is only in recent years that abusive language is recorded, in normal times, before everything became Politically Correct. This would not have been classed as a crime, only serious offences were crimes, murder, manslaughter, serious assaults, theft, robbery, burglary, serious criminal damage, serious sexual offences etc. 

However for some reason unknown to the normal population, the bureaucrats, who we believe are from the far side of the Moon or perhaps Saturn, have turned our once green and pleasant land, into a clutter of red tape, silly rules and regulations, causing confusion and ridicule from our European neighbours.

You should be all right in Cornwall or Devon, I have a son that lives in Plympton, the only down side of that area is the rain in winter, unemployment, and heavy tourist traffic at certain times in summer.
The countryside especially in Devon and the coastal areas of Cornwall is spectacular.

The nearest I have been to Seattle is British Columbia but that was a long time ago.


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## Lexie218 (Dec 2, 2011)

Just a quick thank you to everyone for so many insights, both negative and positive. My fiance has been hesitant to move back to England because of increased crime rates, etc but it's still his home and we'd both like to give it a try. I love the history & culture aspects of England and the bad politicians and high taxes don't sound much different from how it is here in Utah. Even the rainy weather sounds like a nice change from our hot, dry climate.

Any suggestions for good, safe areas to live in Northeast England? His family lives up there but he's expressed a desire to live somewhere safer and more family oriented over the town that he grew up in, if necessary. I definitely won't argue with that!

Thanks again to everyone! It's wonderful to get a more comprehensive feel of the country.


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## RyanGP (Nov 30, 2011)

Hepa said:


> However for some reason unknown to the normal population, the bureaucrats, who we believe are from the far side of the Moon or perhaps Saturn, have turned our once green and pleasant land, into a clutter of red tape, silly rules and regulations, causing confusion and ridicule from our European neighbours.
> 
> You should be all right in Cornwall or Devon, I have a son that lives in Plympton, the only down side of that area is the rain in winter, unemployment, and heavy tourist traffic at certain times in summer.
> The countryside especially in Devon and the coastal areas of Cornwall is spectacular.


That's OK. Just so long as they don't go so far as to have a Ministry of Silly Walks, or engage in fish-slapping.

rain in winter? unemployment? heavy tourist traffic at certain times in summer?
Sounds a lot like Seattle to me! 
Ryan


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

rifleman said:


> I have lived at various times in SE Asia, the USA, Germany & Cyprus. Had great times/experiences in all of them. In time I plan to settle in Malaysia. But my honest heartfelt view is that London is the greatest city in the world by a long shot. When I leave the UK permanently it will be a day tinged with sadness.




It's Glasgow for me


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

Don't forget the U.K isn't England!!


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## MissinOz (Dec 6, 2011)

Lexie218 said:


> Just a quick thank you to everyone for so many insights, both negative and positive. My fiance has been hesitant to move back to England because of increased crime rates, etc but it's still his home and we'd both like to give it a try. I love the history & culture aspects of England and the bad politicians and high taxes don't sound much different from how it is here in Utah. Even the rainy weather sounds like a nice change from our hot, dry climate.
> 
> Any suggestions for good, safe areas to live in Northeast England? His family lives up there but he's expressed a desire to live somewhere safer and more family oriented over the town that he grew up in, if necessary. I definitely won't argue with that!
> 
> Thanks again to everyone! It's wonderful to get a more comprehensive feel of the country.


Hi there

I've just jumped onto this thread, I move from Oz to YORK it's a beautiful town......
BUT!!! I have been here for 8 months and not a stick of work, Christ I've even offered to work for people for free but they just think you are up to no good so come March we are heading back to OZ
I've finally discovered the true beauty and ugliness of this country.
The country is beautiful but it's the ugly people who bring shame to this great land!
People who hang to the shirt tails of it's past success and think it owes them something.

Now before you go 'bagging' me let me tell you I am a pom and I left this country in the 90s when I realised things weren't that great here, Was it the right thing to do?
After questioning 'did I do the right thing' my answer is YES.
People have got worse here, no manners, no respect and a great deal who are culturally inept! I can't believe there are STILL those who will say things like "it's all those bloody foreigners" ENGLAND! YOU ARE SO SAD! But so beautiful

Sorry about my rant but YORK is a beautiful place to live (but not if you are in advertising)


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

York is a City


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

MissinOz said:


> Hi there
> 
> I've just jumped onto this thread, I move from Oz to YORK it's a beautiful town......
> BUT!!! I have been here for 8 months and not a stick of work, Christ I've even offered to work for people for free but they just think you are up to no good so come March we are heading back to OZ
> ...


Don't have to apologise - all responses to this thread have to be subjective - it is the nature of the beast. So many of us have left the UK for various reasons, to live elsewhere and to find something that suits us better. The majority of us expats are, I think, content with where we have ended up but that may be because we did our researches properly before moving and didn't just jump without a proper look first. 

The changing world situation and, in particular, the financial crises sparked off by irresponsible banks and the carrots they dangled before those who were desperate to grab at any straw as a way up and out of their own personal mire or up a rung or two of the ladder to a better life, has caught out so many. One should not even consider a move to anywhere else unless one can be certain of one's income and one's ability to cut one's cloth according to one's purse.

(With hindsight all these problems might have been foreseen if we had less blind faith in our "Leaders" and the advisers who suggested or even advocated that that was the way forward.)


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Hepa said:


> York is a City


Unfortunately, outside of the UK and British English (where a city has a cathedral), the term is grossly misused, e.g. anywhere in the US that has more than a couple of streets and an administrative centre calls itself a "City" and has a "City Hall" although occasionally you will find a "Borough" - all totally meaningless - they just sound good. In Spain, of course, they jump straight from village to city (Pueblo -> Ciudad) with no thought for size, cathedrals or the alcalde's wife/mistress's bust measurement or even if it has a "Red Heart" club .


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## The Moose (Apr 30, 2008)

MissinOz said:


> Hi there
> 
> I've just jumped onto this thread, I move from Oz to YORK it's a beautiful town......
> BUT!!! I have been here for 8 months and not a stick of work, Christ I've even offered to work for people for free but they just think you are up to no good so come March we are heading back to OZ
> ...


The south of england is even worse. Maybe you need to live it to know what you dont like and actually do want. As you say, sadness is not a quality and subsequently lane:


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## MissinOz (Dec 6, 2011)

baldilocks said:


> Don't have to apologise - all responses to this thread have to be subjective - it is the nature of the beast. So many of us have left the UK for various reasons, to live elsewhere and to find something that suits us better. The majority of us expats are, I think, content with where we have ended up but that may be because we did our researches properly before moving and didn't just jump without a proper look first.
> 
> The changing world situation and, in particular, the financial crises sparked off by irresponsible banks and the carrots they dangled before those who were desperate to grab at any straw as a way up and out of their own personal mire or up a rung or two of the ladder to a better life, has caught out so many. One should not even consider a move to anywhere else unless one can be certain of one's income and one's ability to cut one's cloth according to one's purse.
> 
> (With hindsight all these problems might have been foreseen if we had less blind faith in our "Leaders" and the advisers who suggested or even advocated that that was the way forward.)


With the option of 2 job offers and plenty of contacts for myself and my having good prospects we thought if for any reason something goes wrong we will simply push on for 6 months and see what happens - that's all we have been doing pushing as when we go here the first company started to lay people off (to save paying holiday pay) and the second was so blasé and didn't see to give a flying....
Yes homework and research was done .... no wonder I'm jaded about my fellow poms!


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## Starryskies (Nov 17, 2011)

killingxspree said:


> Ok, so I'm trying not to go into the UK with green coloured specs... but I need some insight.
> Why is the UK such a bad place to live in? I don't want to go there and be hit with it.
> There is a myriad of UK expats in Australia and I just don't get it.
> Some of the very vague reasons I've heard cited for moving were lifestyle, nice place to raise children and the government sucks in the UK...???
> ...


It sounds a little pathetic but actually a big downside of the UK for me is the weather! I can accept the cold, that's fine, but England isn't cold, it's grey, drizzly and damp, and that's most of the year, not just the winter! I like being outside so it effects my lifestyle...


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## FIFA_World_Cup_fan (Apr 25, 2014)

*hey !!*



killingxspree said:


> Ok, so I'm trying not to go into the UK with green coloured specs... but I need some insight.
> Why is the UK such a bad place to live in? I don't want to go there and be hit with it.
> There is a myriad of UK expats in Australia and I just don't get it.
> Some of the very vague reasons I've heard cited for moving were lifestyle, nice place to raise children and the government sucks in the UK...???
> ...



Nice Thread --- interesting to see so many different viewpoints !!


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## Anxious_wife (Mar 11, 2013)

I am very amused by some of the comments on this thread from expats who say that they left the UK due to 'too many immigrants' - the pot calling the kettle black I think.

I mean honestly!


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## hightensionwire (Jun 23, 2014)

Anxious_wife said:


> I am very amused by some of the comments on this thread from expats who say that they left the UK due to 'too many immigrants' - the pot calling the kettle black I think.
> 
> I mean honestly!


My spouse showed me this poll yesterday where the majority of British citizens supported free EU migration for Brits and were against EU migrants coming into the UK. He was like "Yep, that accurately describes the British attitude towards immigrants."


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## wijibintheuk (Oct 16, 2014)

*Greener or not...*

Have enjoyed reading this post and the variety of responses. As the old adage goes "the grass is always greener...." I have been fortunately to have lived in quite a few countries - South Africa, the UK, the USA, a Caribbean island and even a short stint in Paris. They are all "greener" in some aspects and less green in others. There is no perfect place, if there was the entire world would want to live there. Every place has its challenges and many of the perceived challenges are down to personal preference.
One thing I have noticed though is how often people will becoming overly negative about a country they are leaving when they move to another country. It is like they need to find everything negative about the country they are leaving in order to justify their move.


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## Anxious_wife (Mar 11, 2013)

hightensionwire said:


> My spouse showed me this poll yesterday where the majority of British citizens supported free EU migration for Brits and were against EU migrants coming into the UK. He was like "Yep, that accurately describes the British attitude towards immigrants."


Sounds about right.


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## AnimalPlanet_watcher (Oct 29, 2014)

*agree*



wijibintheuk said:


> Have enjoyed reading this post and the variety of responses. As the old adage goes "the grass is always greener...." I have been fortunately to have lived in quite a few countries - South Africa, the UK, the USA, a Caribbean island and even a short stint in Paris. They are all "greener" in some aspects and less green in others. There is no perfect place, if there was the entire world would want to live there. Every place has its challenges and many of the perceived challenges are down to personal preference.
> One thing I have noticed though is how often people will becoming overly negative about a country they are leaving when they move to another country. It is like they need to find everything negative about the country they are leaving in order to justify their move.



hey mate - wijibintheuk
Good Point made by you !!


Funny - so many folks actually state this "grass is greener on the other side" too easily; and they do not value their own home country in a sense....


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## amytheorangutan (Oct 29, 2014)

I'm an Australian who were born in Indonesia but have lived in Melbourne half of my life, then lived in London for 2 years and met my now husband while I was there. Now waiting for my spouse visa. My personal opinion and this is only about living in London, not other parts of UK but I think it is only great if you are singles or couples with no kids or mega rich. Otherwise the Cons are:

- Overcrowded
- Not child friendly
- Accommodation is mega expensive even for someone from Melbourne, especially because for the same amount of money you will get a nice newly refurbish place in inner suburbs of Melbourne but in London there are lots of old, dingy, tiny, dated properties that are still rented for insanely high prices
- Lack of Sun. I'm not a fan of hot weather but I love sunny winter days
- People are less friendly compared to Melbourne but not too bad for a big city
- Salary is low for common jobs
- No superannuation unless maybe if you do government work
- While London has fancy food markets like Borough Market, good fresh food markets that sells everyday cheap meat, fish, veggies and fruits are practically nonexistent
- Bad bad coffee
- And bad food compared to Melbourne standard

Now the Pros:
- Amazing history and places like museums, galleries etc
- It is an exciting city. Something interesting always happens and it's cheap to go to concerts, theatres, shows etc
- It's close and cheap to travel around Europe and almost everywhere else compared to Australia
- Public transports are infinitely better than Melbourne or anywhere else in Australia

Those are all I could think of right now


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Amy,

- Bad food compared to Melbourne.

In London you can buy food from anywhere in the world cooked authentically by a person from just about any country in the world. At the top end, for its size, London has a remarkably high number of highly rated restaurants. The street food scene is lively too, with good quality at reasonable prices, although reasonable does of course mean a but high when compared to outside of the city.

- Bad bad coffee.

Yes, you can buy bad coffee but there are independent coffee shops and traders selling well kept products from around the world. But it costs.

- People are less friendly. 

People from most places outside of London will tell you it feels quite unfriendly there, but with a few exceptions, this is a pretty common observation about most big cities.

- Food markets.

The idea that you can't buy good fresh meat, fish, vegetables and fruit is ridiculous, frankly. 

On comparisons with Melbourne, we're not really comparing apples with apples, are we. London is one of the great cities whereas Melbourne is not. London comes with great-city features, such as ridiculous prices for accommodation and high prices for everything else. It's not a nice place to be if you don't earn a lot, as you said.

Oh, and transport. You're right, it has great connections. In fact, you can be sat in Covent Garden and should you find yourself drinking bad coffee and tasting bad food (compare to Melbourne, apparently), just an hour later you can be at LHR boarding a plane for Melbourne. Enjoy your trip.

Although I gather you left and you're not there now. Why wait so long.


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## amytheorangutan (Oct 29, 2014)

Horlics you are really taking my opinion personally. As I said they are all my PERSONAL opinion based on my personal experiences. There are many many opinions in this forums and threads, none of them are absolutely correct or wrong. People read them all then gather their own conclusion. Just chill out, no need to attack if you don't agree with my points or would you rather people stay quiet and not voice their opinion if it's "wrong" according to your opinion?


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## amytheorangutan (Oct 29, 2014)

oh and while at it since you think you know everything and always right. London is one of the great cities but Melbourne is one of the most liveable city in the world for a reason http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_most_liveable_cities


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

One of the reasons you get lousy coffee in London is the water - it is hard water and you need soft water for coffee!


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Just offering an alternative opinion Amy, that's all.

Looking back, I'm surprised I bothered. Quiet day. When bad coffee is cited as a reason to enjoy a city or not, I really shouldn't take the time.




amytheorangutan said:


> Horlics you are really taking my opinion personally. As I said they are all my PERSONAL opinion based on my personal experiences. There are many many opinions in this forums and threads, none of them are absolutely correct or wrong. People read them all then gather their own conclusion. Just chill out, no need to attack if you don't agree with my points or would you rather people stay quiet and not voice their opinion if it's "wrong" according to your opinion?


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

I won't be following the link Amy, no need, I've been to Melbourne.

And I didn't say I know everything and I am always right, I simply gave an alternative view. Not right, not wrong, just my view. Suck it up, as they say in one of the other truly liveable cities in the world.




amytheorangutan said:


> oh and while at it since you think you know everything and always right. London is one of the great cities but Melbourne is one of the most liveable city in the world for a reason World's most liveable cities - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

I agree baldi. Sadly I am one of those whose green views prevents me from buying anything transported very far, so making it with Evian is a no no for me 



baldilocks said:


> One of the reasons you get lousy coffee in London is the water - it is hard water and you need soft water for coffee!


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## Dmoniz (Sep 14, 2014)

I am of Hawaiian/Guam decent. I was born and raised in California and lived there my whole life.
I was excited to come to the UK. I am here now on a fiance visa and will get married to the love of my life next month

The first time I ever experience racism in my life was in the UK. Not by just one person also.
We live in a small town near Cambridge.

A few people have told my fiance after seeing me to be careful that I wasn't only after a visa. They assumed that I was from Thailand or the Philippines. Even when my fiance explained that I was Pure American, they were shocked because for some reason they thought Americans are just white.

Not all Americans are white! Americans are a blend of all races. Doesn't matter what color we are still Americans.

I am not liking my stay in the UK at the moment. Maybe I'll take my fiance back with me to L.A where it doesn't matter what color you are.


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