# Padron Nightmare



## Nick Harris

We can’t get Padron because our Landlord refuses to supply us with his statutory paperwork and is therefore denying us our rights as EU citizens to live in Spain.

As pensioners my wife and I have rented a property in the Mazarron Country Club for 11 months prior to either extending our rental agreement or buying a property. Our first priority is to register for Padron for which our Landlord needs to produce his Escitura or alternatively a copy of his passport and IBI tax payment will suffice along with a rental agreement. Our Landlord has refused to supply any of this information and told us via his agent that he ensured that our signed rental agreement is not worth the paper it’s written on and we have two months to vacate his property. As my wife is registered disabled our move to Spain has turned into a complete nightmare because our Landlord obviously has something to hide, presumably from the UK tax authorities or the Spanish authorities or both. His agent only has his telephone number in Manchester but no address and we also suspect that his agent also has something to hide. Can anybody advise us where to go and what to do to resolve this issue?


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## Nugget_Hound

Sounds like whatever happens you are going to have to find another property and maybe this should be your priority , are his actions stopping you from doing this ?, I am new to this forum and I am trying to find out info myself about moving.


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## mrypg9

Nick Harris said:


> We can’t get Padron because our Landlord refuses to supply us with his statutory paperwork and is therefore denying us our rights as EU citizens to live in Spain.
> 
> As pensioners my wife and I have rented a property in the Mazarron Country Club for 11 months prior to either extending our rental agreement or buying a property. Our first priority is to register for Padron for which our Landlord needs to produce his Escitura or alternatively a copy of his passport and IBI tax payment will suffice along with a rental agreement. Our Landlord has refused to supply any of this information and told us via his agent that he ensured that our signed rental agreement is not worth the paper it’s written on and we have two months to vacate his property. As my wife is registered disabled our move to Spain has turned into a complete nightmare because our Landlord obviously has something to hide, presumably from the UK tax authorities or the Spanish authorities or both. His agent only has his telephone number in Manchester but no address and we also suspect that his agent also has something to hide. Can anybody advise us where to go and what to do to resolve this issue?


That's awful. You have my sympathy.
Firstly, you need only a copy of your rental agreement plus your NIE/residencia and passport p/copies to sign on the padron.
At least, that's all we had to produce. Maybe it's different where you are.
Secondly, I'd say yes, your landlord, whom I assume to be British, most definitely has something to hide. You have a rental agreement so you may well have rights, depending on the wording of the agreement. He's probably evading tax here, in the UK or both. He may not have kept up with his mortgage repayments.
Whatever, he sounds a right scumbag and if I were you I'd get a good lawyer and find out exactly what rights you do have.
Your landlord cannot evict you without going to court, as I understand it, neither can he cut off utilities to the property.
I'd stay put and make life as difficult as possible for this sleazeball.


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## Nick Harris

Having moved from Scotland at huge expense we are not in a position to go through these costs again at this time. In addition, albeit the agreement is not worth the paper it's written on, Spanish law can find in favour of the Landlord and we will still remain accountable for the balance of payments for the full term of the rental agreement. We are between a rock and a hardplace but we will need to move at some stage. Regarding moving yourself I would offer 3 pieces of advice: Research, Research and Research


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## Nick Harris

mrypg9 said:


> That's awful. You have my sympathy.
> Firstly, you need only a copy of your rental agreement plus your NIE/residencia and passport p/copies to sign on the padron.
> At least, that's all we had to produce. Maybe it's different where you are.
> Secondly, I'd say yes, your landlord, whom I assume to be British, most definitely has something to hide. You have a rental agreement so you may well have rights, depending on the wording of the agreement. He's probably evading tax here, in the UK or both. He may not have kept up with his mortgage repayments.
> Whatever, he sounds a right scumbag and if I were you I'd get a good lawyer and find out exactly what rights you do have.
> Your landlord cannot evict you without going to court, as I understand it, neither can he cut off utilities to the property.
> I'd stay put and make life as difficult as possible for this sleazeball.


Thanks for your encouraging reply and your discernment regarding the character of my so called Land"LORD"! My main problem is that my wife is ill and I can't get help for her until I get padron.


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## Nugget_Hound

Yes I am constantly researching stuff all the time !!! I hope you get the solution you are searching for , peace!!


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## mrypg9

Nick Harris said:


> Having moved from Scotland at huge expense we are not in a position to go through these costs again at this time. In addition, albeit the agreement is not worth the paper it's written on, Spanish law can find in favour of the Landlord and we will still remain accountable for the balance of payments for the full term of the rental agreement. We are between a rock and a hardplace but we will need to move at some stage. Regarding moving yourself I would offer 3 pieces of advice: Research, Research and Research


Any sensible person would research all aspects of life in a new country before committing the,selves.
But all the research in the world can't protect you from unscripulous people,sadly.
I suspect you may have more rights than you think.


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## Pesky Wesky

Nick Harris said:


> We can’t get Padron because our Landlord refuses to supply us with his statutory paperwork and is therefore denying us our rights as EU citizens to live in Spain.
> 
> As pensioners my wife and I have rented a property in the Mazarron Country Club for 11 months prior to either extending our rental agreement or buying a property. Our first priority is to register for Padron for which our Landlord needs to produce his Escitura or alternatively a copy of his passport and IBI tax payment will suffice along with a rental agreement. Our Landlord has refused to supply any of this information and told us via his agent that he ensured that our signed rental agreement is not worth the paper it’s written on and we have two months to vacate his property. As my wife is registered disabled our move to Spain has turned into a complete nightmare because our Landlord obviously has something to hide, presumably from the UK tax authorities or the Spanish authorities or both. His agent only has his telephone number in Manchester but no address and we also suspect that his agent also has something to hide. Can anybody advise us where to go and what to do to resolve this issue?


Sorry this has turned sour for you.
Have you been able to go to the town hall, and have you explained the situation to them?
Are there English speakers in the townhall (assuming you don't speak Spanish...)


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## Nick Harris

Pesky Wesky said:


> Sorry this has turned sour for you.
> Have you been able to go to the town hall, and have you explained the situation to them?
> Are there English speakers in the townhall (assuming you don't speak Spanish...)


We have presented ourselves to the Mazarron Padron Office queue 3 times and on the last occasion we were accompanied by the Mayor's Wife for El Saladillo when we earned a hard fought concession that a copy of our Landlord's Passport + copy of his IBI tax bill + Tenancy (In Spanish) agreement would suffice instead of his Escritura but he still refused to supply this information and told us to vacate his property in 2 months


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## Nugget_Hound

Surely if your landlord isn't playing ball with the authorities he will lose his rights also , nice of the Mayors wife to try and help you out , if she can't push something through for you that isn't a good sign


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## xabiaxica

Nick Harris said:


> Having moved from Scotland at huge expense we are not in a position to go through these costs again at this time. In addition, albeit the agreement is not worth the paper it's written on, Spanish law can find in favour of the Landlord and we will still remain accountable for the balance of payments for the full term of the rental agreement. We are between a rock and a hardplace but we will need to move at some stage. Regarding moving yourself I would offer 3 pieces of advice: Research, Research and Research


actually.... becuase it's your home here he can't make you move out as long as you keep paying rent - & according to the LAU you only have to give a month notice - it's highly unlikely that if you were to end up in court that they would find in favour of the landlord 

however - I would move as soon as possible if I were you

what mrypg9 says is also pretty much correct though - all you are required to show to register on the padrón is your rental agreement & your passport (& copies)

by law, that is all that is required, although some offices are (wrongly) demanding various other bits & pieces


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## Nick Harris

Thanks for your reply. What sickens me is that my wife and I are being penalised for something completely outwith our control. I would welcome anybody from the Town Hall to visit us at our address and we will demonstrate that we are indeed who we are without being dragged down a road of somebody elses making.


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## xabiaxica

Nick Harris said:


> Thanks for your reply. What sickens me is that my wife and I are being penalised for something completely outwith our control. I would welcome anybody from the Town Hall to visit us at our address and we will demonstrate that we are indeed who we are without being dragged down a road of somebody elses making.


totally agree

you really don't need a landlord like that though, do you?

maybe it's a lucky escape....


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## Nick Harris

xabiachica said:


> actually.... becuase it's your home here he can't make you move out as long as you keep paying rent - & according to the LAU you only have to give a month notice - it's highly unlikely that if you were to end up in court that they would find in favour of the landlord
> 
> however - I would move as soon as possible if I were you
> 
> what mrypg9 says is also pretty much correct though - all you are required to show to register on the padrón is your rental agreement & your passport (& copies)
> 
> by law, that is all that is required, although some offices are (wrongly) demanding various other bits & pieces


Thanks for your reply. The legal minimum makes sense but why Murcia/Mazarron has to overcomplicate the law by insisting upon seeing paperwork not connected to the applicant is beyond understanding when you consider the whole purpose of Padron is for the administrative benefit of Spain. Folk intending to move to Spain who read this blog would quite rightly have second thoughts regarding Murcia. Now that must register among the Spanish hierarchy as somewhat counterproductive in these hard times but why should their bureaucrats be any more awake than those in the UK?


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> actually.... becuase it's your home here he can't make you move out as long as you keep paying rent - & according to the LAU you only have to give a month notice - it's highly unlikely that if you were to end up in court that they would find in favour of the landlord
> 
> however - I would move as soon as possible if I were you
> 
> what mrypg9 says is also pretty much correct though - all you are required to show to register on the padrón is your rental agreement & your passport (& copies)
> 
> by law, that is all that is required, although some offices are (wrongly) demanding various other bits & pieces


As the Mayors wife has helped you out, maybe this unauthorised practice could be pointed out to her...


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## xabiaxica

Nick Harris said:


> Thanks for your reply. The legal minimum makes sense but why Murcia/Mazarron has to overcomplicate the law by insisting upon seeing paperwork not connected to the applicant is beyond understanding when you consider the whole purpose of Padron is for the administrative benefit of Spain. Folk intending to move to Spain who read this blog would quite rightly have second thoughts regarding Murcia. Now that must register among the Spanish hierarchy as somewhat counterproductive in these hard times but why should their bureaucrats be any more awake than those in the UK?


we had a similar thread recently actually - from a different area I think, though

it transpired that the property owner hadn't paid his taxes & this was one way for the ayto to catch up with him

off to work now - if I can find the thread when I get back I'll post a link to it


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## mrypg9

I too would advise moving but in my good time. Have you paid a deposit to your landlord? If so, stay until you have used it up as you won't get it back.
When we arrived five years ago,green as grass, we had a problem with an agent who we suspected was renting without the owner's knowledge.we had paid €1800 deposit, two months' rent, on a not very prepossessing piso in an almost deserted 'urb'. After a few skirmishes over repairs we decided to leave and stayed two months to eat up our deposit. The agent screamed and yelled and threatened to come with a policeman to which we replied: 'Bring it on!' Of course none came.
There are some real pond-life immigrant Brits here although your particular specimen is back in the UK.
As Xavia says, you have rights. Don't let this sleazeball push you around!


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## brocher

Even if you got this sorted, I think you would still have problems with the landlord down the line. 

Start looking for somewhere else, stop paying rent and be ready to move on as soon as you have recouped the amount of your deposit from rent you haven't paid- this way you won't be out of pocket moving.

In the meantime, get it in writing from the Town Hall what you need for the padron. Show this to new landlord and make sure he is willing to provide said documentation - don't hand over deposit or sign rental agreement until you get it.

Don't worry about not paying the old landlord either, he will come chasing but just have your story ready. Say that you are really sorry but the bank have messed up direct debit and you are chasing them to sort it out!


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## Megsmum

I have to agree. This is obviously causing you stress and anxiety, and why would you want to pay this person your hard earned money. If you were not in such an invidious position, I would say stay and cause him problems, but in this case and for peace of mind, cut your losses and go elsewhere.

Best Wished
x


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## Monkey Hangers

Nick Harris said:


> Thanks for your reply. The legal minimum makes sense but why Murcia/Mazarron has to overcomplicate the law by insisting upon seeing paperwork not connected to the applicant is beyond understanding when you consider the whole purpose of Padron is for the administrative benefit of Spain. Folk intending to move to Spain who read this blog would quite rightly have second thoughts regarding Murcia. Now that must register among the Spanish hierarchy as somewhat counterproductive in these hard times but why should their bureaucrats be any more awake than those in the UK?



We live in Murcia, Torre Pacheco and our town hall also insisted on the additional paperwork so it took 3 visits. I agree, they make it hard for us and yet we are helping them. I believe it is a way of checking the owners of the property have paid their taxes. Luckily ours had. I agree with others, sounds like your landlord is a piece of work and you don't need the hassle under the circumstances. Don't lose out though, use up your security deposit first. Good luck.


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## xabiaxica

Monkey Hangers said:


> We live in Murcia, Torre Pacheco and our town hall also insisted on the additional paperwork so it took 3 visits. I agree, they make it hard for us and yet* we are helping them*. I believe it is a way of checking the owners of the property have paid their taxes. Luckily ours had. I agree with others, sounds like your landlord is a piece of work and you don't need the hassle under the circumstances. Don't lose out though, use up your security deposit first. Good luck.


:confused2:


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## Pazcat

xabiachica said:


> we had a similar thread recently actually - from a different area I think, though
> 
> it transpired that the property owner hadn't paid his taxes & this was one way for the ayto to catch up with him
> 
> off to work now - if I can find the thread when I get back I'll post a link to it



I recall something similar, was this the thread?
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...-anyone-help-me-my-padron-problem-please.html


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## Ludhill

Nick Harris said:


> We can’t get Padron because our Landlord refuses to supply us with his statutory paperwork and is therefore denying us our rights as EU citizens to live in Spain.
> 
> As pensioners my wife and I have rented a property in the Mazarron Country Club for 11 months prior to either extending our rental agreement or buying a property. Our first priority is to register for Padron for which our Landlord needs to produce his Escitura or alternatively a copy of his passport and IBI tax payment will suffice along with a rental agreement. Our Landlord has refused to supply any of this information and told us via his agent that he ensured that our signed rental agreement is not worth the paper it’s written on and we have two months to vacate his property. As my wife is registered disabled our move to Spain has turned into a complete nightmare because our Landlord obviously has something to hide, presumably from the UK tax authorities or the Spanish authorities or both. His agent only has his telephone number in Manchester but no address and we also suspect that his agent also has something to hide. Can anybody advise us where to go and what to do to resolve this issue?


Hi,

Try the new Citizens Advice Bureau in Spain. citizensadvice dot org dot es!
They also have a facebook page and you get very swift responses from Myra, the lady who runs it if you post on there. Don't know whether they can help or not, but it's worth a try. Good Luck!


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## Nick Harris

Ludhill said:


> Hi,
> 
> Try the new Citizens Advice Bureau in Spain. citizensadvice dot org dot es!
> They also have a facebook page and you get very swift responses from Myra, the lady who runs it if you post on there. Don't know whether they can help or not, but it's worth a try. Good Luck!


Thanks for your reply and welcome advice.


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## Pesky Wesky

Monkey Hangers said:


> We live in Murcia, Torre Pacheco and our town hall also insisted on the additional paperwork so it took 3 visits. I agree, they make it hard for us and yet we are helping them. I believe it is a way of checking the owners of the property have paid their taxes. Luckily ours had.


Yes, among other things it's another way for them to follow up on people who aren't paying what they should be paying.


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## xabiaxica

Ludhill said:


> Hi,
> 
> Try the new Citizens Advice Bureau in Spain. citizensadvice dot org dot es!
> They also have a facebook page and you get very swift responses from Myra, the lady who runs it if you post on there. Don't know whether they can help or not, but it's worth a try. Good Luck!


much better to go to OMIC

the Spanish equivalent to the UK CAB - & a govt. agency....rather than a 'charity' which isn't even set up yet, as far as I can see on the website


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## Nick Harris

xabiachica said:


> much better to go to OMIC
> 
> the Spanish equivalent to the UK CAB - & a govt. agency....rather than a 'charity' which isn't even set up yet, as far as I can see on the website


Some kind person has suggested that the way around this problem is for me to rent-short-term a property in the Mazarron area from a landlord who has an Escitura? Thereby getting padron but staying in this original property. What do you thinK?


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## Guest

I live in a rented house, but can't have a padrón here because the owners are still empadronados here, so I'm empadronada at a different address, where I don't live. The ayuntamiento doesn't care, the SS didn't notice or didn't care - it just gave me the necessary piece of paper with the same postcode. (I think you'd need the same postcode.)
Presumably your landlord isn't declaring the rent you pay him, so you should really report him to the British tax office. This isn't at all the fault of Spain or the Spanish.


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## Monkey Hangers

xabiachica said:


> :confused2:


They advertise all the time, they WANT people on the Padron for the allowances they get from the Government for schools, hospitals, fire service etc, don't they?


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## snikpoh

Monkey Hangers said:


> They advertise all the time, they WANT people on the Padron for the allowances they get from the Government for schools, hospitals, fire service etc, don't they?


Really? Around here they don't.

In fact, two years ago they kicked every extranjero OFF the padron and then wrote to as many as they could asking them to re-register. Whilst this might tidy up their records, it sure loses them some money from central government.


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## xabiaxica

Monkey Hangers said:


> They advertise all the time, they WANT people on the Padron for the allowances they get from the Government for schools, hospitals, fire service etc, don't they?


ahh - but you're not helping them

you're simply fulfilling your obligation to register so that they get the money to provide YOU, as a RESIDENT, with the services


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## 213979

xabiachica said:


> ahh - but you're not helping them
> 
> you're simply fulfilling your obligation to register so that they get the money to provide YOU, as a RESIDENT, with the services


At least for non EUs, if you are not a permanent resident you have to re register every two years. I have been kicked off too.


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## xabiaxica

elenetxu said:


> At least for non EUs, if you are not a permanent resident you have to re register every two years. I have been kicked off too.


:confused2:

off the padrón??

we (EU & everyone else) have to 're-register' every 5 years so that they know who's still here - if you haven't moved within that time you pop into the office & re-register - they send you a reminder in the post - you don't have to pay anything though......

if you've moved within that time, then your padrón registration is less than 5 years old so you won't get a reminder or have to do anything

there has been a bit of a 'clean-up' in my town recently - there were a lot on the padrón who weren't registered as resident & vice versa - & of course if you are registered on one list, you logically should be registered on the other, but you don't have to pay to register on the padrón............


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## Nick Harris

If this is all about my Landlords tax evasion then I would be delighted to help HMCE to prosecute him and hopefully be party to him serving a prison sentence providing my reward for doing so would get my padron! Now that's what I would call a sensible deal.


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## snikpoh

xabiachica said:


> :confused2:
> 
> ...
> 
> we (EU & everyone else) have to 're-register' every 5 years so that they know who's still here - if you haven't moved within that time you pop into the office & re-register - they send you a reminder in the post - you don't have to pay anything though......
> 
> .......


Really? Is this true of everywhere or just Javea?

We don't have that system here that I know of.


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## xabiaxica

snikpoh said:


> Really? Is this true of everywhere or just Javea?
> 
> We don't have that system here that I know of.


afaik it's everywhere, or rather, everywhere can/should?? do it

but not everywhere bothers


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## 213979

xabiachica said:


> :confused2:
> 
> off the padrón??
> 
> we (EU & everyone else) have to 're-register' every 5 years so that they know who's still here - if you haven't moved within that time you pop into the office & re-register - they send you a reminder in the post - you don't have to pay anything though......
> 
> if you've moved within that time, then your padrón registration is less than 5 years old so you won't get a reminder or have to do anything
> 
> there has been a bit of a 'clean-up' in my town recently - there were a lot on the padrón who weren't registered as resident & vice versa - & of course if you are registered on one list, you logically should be registered on the other, but you don't have to pay to register on the padrón............


Yup! I told you guys I was a guest here 

Noe that I am married to a local I dont have to renew.


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## kalohi

xabiachica said:


> :confused2:
> 
> off the padrón??
> 
> we (EU & everyone else) have to 're-register' every 5 years so that they know who's still here - if you haven't moved within that time you pop into the office & re-register - they send you a reminder in the post - you don't have to pay anything though......
> 
> if you've moved within that time, then your padrón registration is less than 5 years old so you won't get a reminder or have to do anything.


That's not how it works everywhere. I registered on the 'padrón' when I first moved into this house 20 years ago, and they've never heard from me again. But I'm still registered. I had to ask for a certificado de empadronamiento familiar about 6 months ago and there I was, registered along with the rest of my family.


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## ericban

Hi, 

Sorry to hear about your issues. It was me that started a similar thread, and for the same reasons as you. I only got round it by the skin of my teeth. I asked for a complaint form as the situation of my landlord (in Ireland) being several years in arrears with IBI was not connected in any way whatsoever to us, and this was preventing us registering with a doctor, which I needed to do fairly quickly (as no padron). They begrudgingly agreed to put us on, but only after I got the Landlord's address from our agents and supplied it to them, so that they could pursue him through the courts.

Sorry we can't be of more help. Your Landlord appears to be a great piece of work! Ours was just in financial trouble and we had no contact with him. Maybe you will be better off by distancing yourselves from Yours. They must still put you on the padron though.

Regards
Ericban


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## Monkey Hangers

xabiachica said:


> ahh - but you're not helping them
> 
> you're simply fulfilling your obligation to register so that they get the money to provide YOU, as a RESIDENT, with the services


We'll have to agree to disagree, it's open to interpretation. 
We did pay to go on the Padron, was around 6€ I think.


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## Monkey Hangers

snikpoh said:


> Really? Around here they don't.
> 
> In fact, two years ago they kicked every extranjero OFF the padron and then wrote to as many as they could asking them to re-register. Whilst this might tidy up their records, it sure loses them some money from central government.


Yes it was in the free papers and on the local radio station. With the explanation that they were losing money if we didn't register.


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## Nick Harris

ericban said:


> Hi,
> 
> Sorry to hear about your issues. It was me that started a similar thread, and for the same reasons as you. I only got round it by the skin of my teeth. I asked for a complaint form as the situation of my landlord (in Ireland) being several years in arrears with IBI was not connected in any way whatsoever to us, and this was preventing us registering with a doctor, which I needed to do fairly quickly (as no padron). They begrudgingly agreed to put us on, but only after I got the Landlord's address from our agents and supplied it to them, so that they could pursue him through the courts.
> 
> Sorry we can't be of more help. Your Landlord appears to be a great piece of work! Ours was just in financial trouble and we had no contact with him. Maybe you will be better off by distancing yourselves from Yours. They must still put you on the padron though.
> 
> Regards
> Ericban


Thanks Ericban,
Same problem but our agent tells me that she doesn't have our Landlords address, which makes us very suspicious because she put together the rental agreement with the Landlord which she now tells us isn't worth the paper it's written on.
The complaint form seems like a great idea, where do you get the forms from?
Regards Nick Harris.


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## youngagepensioner

This is Spanish Bureaucracy at its best.

Someone is prevented from accessing local facilities over an issue which someone else has with the tax authorities? When the original person has done nothing wrong and is in fact being prevented from being 'legal' by the authorities that want to chase the other guy. 

When we signed on the Padron, all we needed was our passport and escritura (bought house), had we have been renting we'd have needed a rental agreement to prove where we lived. What does your landlord's escritura have to do with anything, it's you that are registering, not him. If he owes them taxes, that is not your problem and you should not be expected to be involved in it an any way.

Whilst I loved many things about my time in Spain, the stupidly complex and unnecessary bureaucracy was one thing I never got used to and hated it more the longer we were there. Spain is so good at shooting itself in the foot.

To the OP, I think that all you can do is as others have suggested, and move to somewhere where you don't have all this hassle.


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## xabiaxica

youngagepensioner said:


> This is Spanish Bureaucracy at its best.
> 
> Someone is prevented from accessing local facilities over an issue which someone else has with the tax authorities? When the original person has done nothing wrong and is in fact being prevented from being 'legal' by the authorities that want to chase the other guy.
> 
> *When we signed on the Padron, all we needed was our passport and escritura (bought house), had we have been renting we'd have needed a rental agreement to prove where we lived. * What does your landlord's escritura have to do with anything, it's you that are registering, not him. If he owes them taxes, that is not your problem and you should not be expected to be involved in it an any way.
> 
> Whilst I loved many things about my time in Spain, the stupidly complex and unnecessary bureaucracy was one thing I never got used to and hated it more the longer we were there. Spain is so good at shooting itself in the foot.
> 
> To the OP, I think that all you can do is as others have suggested, and move to somewhere where you don't have all this hassle.


yes, and that is all you're supposed to need, according to govt requirements

this is a local office making up the rules as it goes along - I'm wondering if asking for the complaints book might help, as it seems to have done in the other case


though the OP is for sure better off just moving, in the long run!



Nick Harris said:


> Thanks Ericban,
> Same problem but our agent tells me that she doesn't have our Landlords address, which makes us very suspicious because she put together the rental agreement with the Landlord which she now tells us isn't worth the paper it's written on.
> The complaint form seems like a great idea, where do you get the forms from?
> Regards Nick Harris.


the office where you register on the padrón will have a _libro _or_ hoja de reclamaciones _- that's what you need to ask for

incidentally - so should the estate agent - & after what you've just written here, I'd be seriously considering putting a complaint in hers, too


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## ericban

Hi Nick,

Our agent told us to ask for the reclamaciones form if we got no joy on our next visit to the Torre Pacheco Padron Office.

There was a lot of gesturing when we asked for this. Other staff came and went and we were asked why we wanted it by one seemingly higher up member of staff. Apparently it is a big deal out here in Spain!

We were then told they would make an exception in our case and add us, provided we could supply the landlord's details, which we did. We were also taken to another office where we had to point out our property on a map on the computer, allowing them to zoom in and get some sort of plot number used by the council to identify our property for their paperwork.

We had already explained that we had provided everything needed to be on the Padron on previous visits. There answer was that it was a new local rule to provide escitura and IBI receipt from the landlord, and they had to abide by it.

Regards
ericban


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## Monkey Hangers

ericban said:


> Hi Nick,
> 
> Our agent told us to ask for the reclamaciones form if we got no joy on our next visit to the Torre Pacheco Padron Office.
> 
> There was a lot of gesturing when we asked for this. Other staff came and went and we were asked why we wanted it by one seemingly higher up member of staff. Apparently it is a big deal out here in Spain!
> 
> We were then told they would make an exception in our case and add us, provided we could supply the landlord's details, which we did. We were also taken to another office where we had to point out our property on a map on the computer, allowing them to zoom in and get some sort of plot number used by the council to identify our property for their paperwork.
> 
> We had already explained that we had provided everything needed to be on the Padron on previous visits. There answer was that it was a new local rule to provide escitura and IBI receipt from the landlord, and they had to abide by it.
> 
> Regards
> ericban


Ericban do you live on MMGR too!


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## ericban

No I live on La Torre Golf Resort

Regards
EB


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## Nick Harris

To update readers of this post our situation went from bad to worse. We commissioned a lawyer to help and she told us that we needed to get a Spanish rental agreement because our current agreement was illegal in Spain but in the meantime she managed to secure our Padron from the Town Hall which then allowed us to get residentia and accepted by the local health service. She also told us that the Spanish authorities have a problem with “Ghost expat Landlords”, which in her opinion was our main problem. They, along with their agents, deal only in cash to avoid paying their local taxes. As we had paid a months rent in advance we refused to pay any more rent in "cash" until our Landlord supplied us with a legally binding Spanish agreement. Approximately 2 weeks later my disabled wife and I were subjected to the most horrifying assault from the Landlord and a man who could only be described as an extremely evil thug. After their agent brought them to our front door they barged past us and grabbed all the keys and my mobile phone and pulled down the shutters and literally threatened us with our lives. They appeared prepared with bin lines and immediately set about dumping our property on the street. The police arrived and informed the Landlord that what they were doing was against the law and that they needed to get a court order to have us legally evicted and then they left! Fortunately a dear friend helped us move all our property off the street into another villa in the region and we are now living our lives in a rented property with a legally binding Spanish tenancy agreement.


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## xabiaxica

Nick Harris said:


> To update readers of this post our situation went from bad to worse. We commissioned a lawyer to help and she told us that we needed to get a Spanish rental agreement because our current agreement was illegal in Spain but in the meantime she managed to secure our Padron from the Town Hall which then allowed us to get residentia and accepted by the local health service. She also told us that the Spanish authorities have a problem with “Ghost expat Landlords”, which in her opinion was our main problem. They, along with their agents, deal only in cash to avoid paying their local taxes. As we had paid a months rent in advance we refused to pay any more rent in "cash" until our Landlord supplied us with a legally binding Spanish agreement. Approximately 2 weeks later my disabled wife and I were subjected to the most horrifying assault from the Landlord and a man who could only be described as an extremely evil thug. After their agent brought them to our front door they barged past us and grabbed all the keys and my mobile phone and pulled down the shutters and literally threatened us with our lives. They appeared prepared with bin lines and immediately set about dumping our property on the street. The police arrived and informed the Landlord that what they were doing was against the law and that they needed to get a court order to have us legally evicted and then they left! Fortunately a dear friend helped us move all our property off the street into another villa in the region and we are now living our lives in a rented property with a legally binding Spanish tenancy agreement.



what a dreadful experience 

it was as we suspected though  - I hope the authorities catch up with them - did you denounce the owner & agent?


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## Nick Harris

We have been advised that we can't denounce the Landlord as he lives in the UK and we don't know his address but his agent who lives in Spain is another matter!


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## xabiaxica

Nick Harris said:


> We have been advised that we can't denounce the Landlord as he lives in the UK and we don't know his address but his agent who lives in Spain is another matter!



I want to say 'go for it'! & denounce the agent - but I'm not sure I'd have the guts after the experience you just had............... which is of course giving in to the bullies


tough one


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## JaneyO

Just wanted to say how shocked I was by your experience, really feel for you and hope you will at last be happily settled in a new place. Denounce them , report them to HMRC sue them- evil scum!


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## Nick Harris

Thank you for your comment, which certainly helps my wife and I to try and get on with the rest of our lives well away from our horrendous experience. The final straw was one of these people broke into our mailbox and stole our mail, which we believe included an important letter from the DWP and our Bank documents.


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## Calas felices

Difficult to understand why the police stood and watched someone break the law and did nothing. Perhaps the agent knew them better than you in which case a denuncia would be a waste of time too.


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## midge

*Only one side of the story being told*

As a very good friend of the "agent" mentioned in the above postings (who is no such thing as an agent just a friend of the owner of the property) I would now like to put her side of the story on here. First of all before the tenants moved into the property they DEMANDED that the landlord have a ceiling fan or aircon put in the lounge of which he obliged, that the landlord provide a new microwave of which he obliged, that he have a shelf put in the shower of which he obliged. A few days after the tenants moved in they then demanded new ceiling fans in both bedrooms as the ones already installed were not adequate (never had any complaints before) of which the landlord yet again obliged. 
The tenants then tried to buy a car and found they were having difficulties as the person dealing with it in Torrevieja told them he needed to see their padron (this is where the problem begins)! My friend the so called "agent" accompanied the tenants to the town hall to try to help then obtain one. Unfortunately they were asking for the landlords passport & escritura of which she didn´t have. In the meantime the "agent" also accompanied the tenants to a gestoria in the town who told them is was not necessary to have a padron to buy a car. The so called "agent" even found them a lovely little car which they went on to buy with no problems.
In the meantime one of the tenants became ill with a chest infection (the amount of *** ends found in the villa at the time of eviction would give anyone a chest infection) so once again the tenants DEMANDED that the "agent" contact the landlord to ask him if he could send a copy of his passport and a copy of his escritura so they could register on the padron and then be accepted on the Spanish health system of which he replied he didn´t think this was a good idea as you don´t want official paperwork falling into the wrong hands i.e. if they got lost in the post etc. The landlord then said he was hoping to come over to Spain in July and would accompany the tenants to the town hall with the relevant paperwork. Alas this was not good enough for the tenants and they proceeded to scream demands down the phone to the "agent" (who was on a coach a 100 kilometres away at the time) and couldn´t be sure what was being screamed at her. Because the "agent" thought there was an emergency as soon as she arrived home she went to see the tenants who were neither there and weren´t answering their mobile phone.
The following morning the "agent" went to see the tenants who explained that they must have the padron in order to register on the Spanish health system and this is why they were so upset and felt the need to scream & shout on the phone. Once again the "agent" contacted the landlord who repeated that he wasn´t happy about posting such important documents for obvious reasons but he would be willing to cancel the rental agreement and not hold them to the 11 months they had signed for so they were able to find another property where the landlord could provide them immediately with the documents required. Once again this wasn´t sufficient.
The next thing the "agent" knew was her doorbell rang and she was handed a letter signed by the tenants saying that they would not be paying any more rent or utilities and were looking for a compensation package for all the hardship caused by not being able to obtain a padron and if and when they decided to pay rent again that they would decide what a fair rent would be. The "agent" then contacted a solicitor on the landlords say so who advised her that nowhere in the tenancy did it say that the landlord had to provide any official documents and would therefore send the tenants a letter to explain this and tell them to commence paying immediately. The solicitor also advised the "agent" to send an email 48 hours before to say she would be collecting rent on the due date. The "agent" did this and got the reply that they would not be paying.
After hearing that the tenants would not be paying anymore rent the "agent" then informed the landlord that there was nothing more she could do. The landlord said he would come over in July and go and see the tenants. The "agent" then introduced the landlord to the tenants at the landlords villa and then left. As for what the tenants say happened after this introduction she has no idea as was not present.
The "agent" has since been down to the villa after the tenants left with myself accompanying her and I cannot believe the sorry state such a beautiful villa was left in. It is my belief that the tenants have never cleaned the villa since they moved in. The cost to the landlord of replacing filthy, soiled furniture and the many missing items will run into hundreds of euros. So all in all with the unpaid utility bills and unpaid rent and specialist cleaning people having to be brought in to fumigate the villa I would say that this is the wrong way to go about obtaining a padron. The question I would like answering is what did the landlord do that was so bad to deserve this. BEWARE OF THESE TENANTS. 
So end the saga of obtaining a padron!!!!


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## snikpoh

Thank you for putting the other side of the story - it's always best to hear both sides.


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## JaneyO

snikpoh said:


> Thank you for putting the other side of the story - it's always best to hear both sides.


Be interested to hear OP's take on long post above.


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## Sezza30x

Here here to Midge!! At last the other side of the story is now out and shows Nick Harris for what he really is, an aggressive, nasty, selfish, greedy man! The Landlord is in fact my father, who is a hard working, law obiding man! To all those above slandering him for tax evasion...... I would kindly request that you take these comments back. You are all way off the mark! My father holds down a full time job in England to pay for our Villa in Spain along with his taxes. As stated by midge Nick Harris demanded various jobs doing in the villa, i would say myself that these were not needed but my father being a bit of a soft touch and a very nice man, agreed. He took trips over to Spain at a cost to himself, to meet the Harris' requests! 

A few months down the line he was then asked to provide a copy of his escritura together with his passport to somebody he barely new AND they wanted it sending via post! I would like you all to stop and take a second to think about this request! Who in the right mind would send private documentation like this to somebody they barely knew. You hear all sorts of horror stories these days about people stealing peoples identities and all the scams that are going on! Although Mr Harris may have been a genuine bloke, how were we to know? My father wanted to be present with him, which he was willing to do but due to work commitments and the cost (having already spent a fortune before Nick Harris had even moved in!) he had to give it some time. .............. 

Nick and his wife then sent abusive letters and emails (copies of which are now in my possession) to our "agent" (who is in fact not an agent but a friend) declaring that they were not paying anymore rent or utilities. The utility bills and rent actually come out of my dads bank account by direct debit, so he is now substantially out of pocket! ....................

Nick Harris was asked if he wanted to terminate the tenancy, to which he then asked to be compensated and furthermore riddicolous requests!!!! The matter was never ending!!! 

My father then took the decision to go over to his villa with my partner (the evil thug mentioned above by Nick Harris) to discuss matters. My father did not go alone, as having read messages off this man and hearing how threatened the "agent" felt speaking with him he felt very cautious!! Something nobody should have to feel when entering their own property, especially when the rent isnt being paid! 

Upon walking into the villa, my dad and my partner were introduced to the Harris's. Their attitude stunk - along with the villa. Mr Harris - my dad hates smoking, he specifically stated in the tenancy agreement that it is a NO SMOKING property. You had ashtrays full of cig .................... Upon sight of the state of the villa, Mr and Mrs Harris were asked to leave immediately as they were in breach of their tenancy agreement in MANY MANY ways!! 

Needless to say, this experience has left my dad substantially out of pocket, the whole family has been stressed and lost sleep and we definitely will not be renting out to anybody again!

..........


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