# Heads up for new immigrants



## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

Just a heads up for new immigrants; Portugal now requires an application for a fiscal number to be countersigned by someone already resident in the country who also has to supply his/her fiscal number & banks, or at least Millennium Bank require a utility bill from the CURRENT year when opening a bank account........ That last one makes me wonder how anyone can open an account in January? lol!


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## Deithrian (Dec 26, 2015)

travelling-man said:


> Just a heads up for new immigrants; Portugal now requires an application for a fiscal number to be countersigned by someone already resident in the country who also has to supply his/her fiscal number & banks, or at least Millennium Bank require a utility bill from the CURRENT year when opening a bank account........ That last one makes me wonder how anyone can open an account in January? lol!


Frankly, I'm ok if they make it near impossible for new immigrants there, even if it means it will be near impossible for me as well.

Really don't like what I see in countries with "welcome all" policies... :juggle:


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## Verinia (Apr 6, 2012)

QUOTE=Deithrian;9472834]Frankly, I'm ok if they make it near impossible for new immigrants there, even if it means it will be near impossible for me as well.

Really don't like what I see in countries with "welcome all" policies... :juggle:[/QUOTE]

I think it would be a very sad world, if everyone was stopped from moving anywhere. The world is as it is because people's have always moved...parts of Portugal was Muslim for 800 years in the past. the Romans, Carthiginians, Visgoths and numerous other peoples all moved here. I find your statement very odd, especially since, as you say, you yourself are an immigrant writing in an immigrant forum.


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## Deithrian (Dec 26, 2015)

Verinia said:


> I think it would be a very sad world, if everyone was stopped from moving anywhere. The world is as it is because people's have always moved...parts of Portugal was Muslim for 800 years in the past. the Romans, Carthiginians, Visgoths and numerous other peoples all moved here. I find your statement very odd, especially since, as you say, you yourself are an immigrant writing in an immigrant forum.


I wanted to swim and searched for a month until I found this absolutely adorable indoors pool, in a small hotel.
The water was clean and heated, the prices were amazingly low.
It appeared that only the guests of the hotel knew about it, although available to the public.
I never saw anything disturbing for 4 months.

After 4 months the hotel started advertising the pool in the local press.
I myself told everyone I knew about it, with great praise.
Even recommended it to friends with kids, because of the clean water and ridiculous prices.

I no longer visit that pool.
It's not because I didn't want the pool to be crowded and popular, I advertised it myself.
It's because it became crowded with very, very, very, bad and nasty people.

Some of them were using the showers literally for hours, so the pool owners installed those weird "timed push to release water" handles.
Others were downright homeless people, who used the pool to bathe, because it was that cheap, and no they didn't take a shower before entering the pool, they went straight in.
Many people came with their kids and never stopped them from urinating in the pool.
There were chemicals to color urine and yeah I'm not blind or deaf to not see or hear them say nothing to their kids.
The water became visibly dirty.
The owners of the pool became greedy and didn't take any action to change the situation.

So all my searching for a nice pool and the fact that I was a customer with the basic culture to take a shower before entering a pool was for nothing.

I'm not against the freedom to move to other places.
But I'm strongly against for it to be too easy.
Otherwise it's not worth moving from A to B if I will find the same people there.
Hopefully this makes sense? :angel:


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## Pgmills (Jan 19, 2015)

Verinia said:


> QUOTE=Deithrian;9472834]Frankly, I'm ok if they make it near impossible for new immigrants there, even if it means it will be near impossible for me as well.
> 
> Really don't like what I see in countries with "welcome all" policies... :juggle:


I think it would be a very sad world, if everyone was stopped from moving anywhere. The world is as it is because people's have always moved...parts of Portugal was Muslim for 800 years in the past. the Romans, Carthiginians, Visgoths and numerous other peoples all moved here. I find your statement very odd, especially since, as you say, you yourself are an immigrant writing in an immigrant forum.[/QUOTE]

"Moved" is an interesting way to put ' conquering'!!


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

Or invading.

The big difference between us ordinary immigrants & those muslims ones is we want & try to fit into the society we're entering whilst they want society to change to suit them.

Hence the no go zones & calls for sharia law in countries such as Sweden & Germany etc.


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## Deithrian (Dec 26, 2015)

travelling-man said:


> Or invading.
> 
> The big difference between us ordinary immigrants & those muslims ones is we want & try to fit into the society we're entering whilst they want society to change to suit them.
> 
> Hence the no go zones & calls for sharia law in countries such as Sweden & Germany etc.


No one seems to give credit for the "try to fit in" part these days.
I'm sure people have bigger enemies in the midst of their own nationals than immigrants looking to become part of their culture. :confused2:
But people are simple, they sere a flag, they see a name, and that's all they care to know.

I wanted to change my name and drop my citizenship, with the risk of becoming a stateless person, but in Bulgaria they won't even allow me to do that.
I literally can't renounce my citizenship if I don't have another one and I can't change my name.

In my experience I have great relationships with people, until I mention where I'm from. As soon as I do, everyone runs for the hills, in some occasions people I've been in contact for a year.
Most recently I explored if that will be a problem in PT and it turns out that it will be a problem. Some of the people I came in contact with were absolutely amazing, funny with good souls, but some of them were more hostile than I would care to bother.
Still, I am yet to meet anyone from PT who I would call Evil, plenty of that here though.


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## advolex (Mar 8, 2015)

travelling-man said:


> Or invading.
> 
> The big difference between us ordinary immigrants & those muslims ones is we want & try to fit into the society we're entering whilst they want society to change to suit them.
> 
> Hence the no go zones & calls for sharia law in countries such as Sweden & Germany etc.


I realize that I risk being considered a nitpicker, but I wonder if you could give any examples what you mean by "calls for sharia law in ... Sweden and Germany". I've lived a fair number of years in both countries that you mention, and have never heard anyone call for sharia laws. It's true, however, that both countries mentionned have another problem, in that the political establishment and the press take citizens fears and protests very lightly (i e Pegida in DE and SD in SE) and actually successfully strive to avoid any discussion on these problems. But basically, my sympathies lie with the notion of free movement for migrants, which doesn't mean that everything should be free forever for everybody if that's what the migrants hope for when the say "Germany" or "Angela Merkel" when asked where they wish to end up en route in the Balkans. Refugees in the true sense of the word must be taken care of however, even if the war they are fleeing from was instigated by another, non-european power.


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## Deithrian (Dec 26, 2015)

advolex said:


> I realize that I risk being considered a nitpicker, but I wonder if you could give any examples what you mean by "calls for sharia law in ... Sweden and Germany". I've lived a fair number of years in both countries that you mention, and have never heard anyone call for sharia laws. It's true, however, that both countries mentionned have another problem, in that the political establishment and the press take citizens fears and protests very lightly (i e Pegida in DE and SD in SE) and actually successfully strive to avoid any discussion on these problems. But basically, my sympathies lie with the notion of free movement for migrants, which doesn't mean that everything should be free forever for everybody if that's what the migrants hope for when the say "Germany" or "Angela Merkel" when asked where they wish to end up en route in the Balkans. Refugees in the true sense of the word must be taken care of however, even if the war they are fleeing from was instigated by another, non-european power.


Never heard of these? :confused2:


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

This really isn't the place to get political because the whole point of this forum is to help new immigrants to settle into their new home but all you have to do to find out what makes a bad immigrant is to go to any of the search engines or you tube etc and enter a phrase such as 'my hometown' or 'muslim invasion' etc. 

Personally, I enjoy Portuguese culture and life and the last thing want to do is live in a 'little England' society........... might make an exception when it comes to Marmite though! lol


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## Verinia (Apr 6, 2012)

No, you're right, it's not the place to get political, the forum is a place to welcome and support all new immigrants, although I'm not sure how any Muslim British citizen retiring here from the Uk will feel when they see this post! The concept of "good" and "bad" immigrants is an interesting one and I guess it is a matter of perspective. Am I a "good"immigrant because I came to spend my retirement in the sun, buying a house I could never afford in the Uk, in a small village, which none of the inhabitants who lived here and worked here all their life could dream of affording? Whilst their children all have to go to the UK to get work? To me, in this village where half are rich (immigrants) and half are poor (villagers) I don't always feel that "good" or very integrated. And I often see my fellow UK citizens, many who are illegal immigrants here because I know full well they don't pay any money at all into the Portuguese tax system, knocking back red wine in the local cafe at 11 in the morning, and bemoaning everything about Portugal loudly and all the immigrant tax dodgers in the UK. Slightly ironic I think and not very integrated either. Personally,I would like to replace them with some of the respectful, extremely clean and delightful Muslim families I used to live next to in London. Equating all Muslims with sharia law is like equating all Christians with the Amish religion or something similar. And I don't think we're getting political. Just being human with human perspectives.


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

Bearing in mind that sharia law is a part of islam, I think it's perfectly reasonable to equate the two but quite frankly, I don't care a fig what invisible friend anyone wants to believe in......... as long as they don't try to force it on me. 

My point is that those immigrants/asylum seekers/invaders ARE trying to enforce their beliefs on the country they're moving to and that alone is what makes them bad immigrants.


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## Verinia (Apr 6, 2012)

Sorry, you're right...showing my ignorance there. Sharia Law is a part of Islam, it's the interpretation of it that's the issue, just like the Bible (for example we don't practice an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth any more in the UK) So I guess you're not saying people don't have a right to practise their religion when they move into a country as long as they don't inflict it on others and as long as they live in that country within its laws. If that's what you're saying, then I'm in perfect agreement. And I guess that goes for any person, whatever their religion, Jewish, fundamentalist Christian or otherwise.

My knowledge of Sharia Law is obviously faulty, so I looked it up here -interesting.

BBC - Religions - Islam: Sharia


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## Deithrian (Dec 26, 2015)

It would be high hypocrisy on my part if I treated Muslims differently than any other people.
Although Bulgaria has lived under Ottoman empire for 500 years and the people here have a thing or two to say about that.
I treat all people equally, unlike some countries who like to flatter themselves with claims of tolerance, yet not missing a chance to mention a person's race and religion on every occasion.


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

What I'm saying is I don't care at all what religion any individual is but I don't want them to try to force it on me. Nor do I think they have the right to introduce sharia law or create no go zones etc in the country they migrate to.

If ANY migrant of any skin colour or religion wants to migrate to another country, they need to accept that country & culture as it is & they need to integrate as much as possible but as previously mentioned, a search on any search engine or you tube etc and enter a phrase such as 'my hometown' or 'muslim invasion' etc will prove that many muslims do the exact opposite.


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## Verinia (Apr 6, 2012)

I tend not to believe stuff unless I see it with my own eyes. I spent thirty years working and living in inner city London, amongst families from more races, colours and creeds than one could count. My neighbour of 30 years was a devout Muslim who looked after my cats when I went away. My particular swimming pool , to use the previous analogy, was a very happy one, unwashed bodies, homeless people, kids peeing in the pool, regardless. We had successive refugees arriving, Ugandan Asians, Vietnamese, Somalians, Yugoslavians, and so on...all of them settled in soon enough and made for a wonderful city to work in...some were bad immigrants, some were good. It's called the real world. I don't see why anyone shouldn't be free to practice their religion wherever they go, this isn't the Dark Ages. It is up to each country to ensure their laws are kept and for its citizens/ residents to obey them. And if we're talking about integration, it would be great to know the number of expats/immigrants in Portugal at the moment who can speak Portuguese or even know who is in power in Govt at the moment, the name of a Portuguese pop star, or the most popular television soap! I really am amazed at how my fellow countrymen and women criticise Muslims for not integrating...it takes my breath away! Anyway, interesting discussion, but I won't comment further, I think made my point.


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

I worked in 7 or 8 countries in Africa over 33 years and employed and counted many muslims as good friends in that time - and still do but that doesn't give them the right to try to force their beliefs on me or anyone else.... if they don't like the society in which they've migrated to, they need to go elsewhere rather than try to convert it to the ****ehole they've come from. 

If they don't do that, they're not good immigrants, they're invaders.


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## oronero (Aug 24, 2012)

I grew up in the big melting pot known as London, born there during the mid 60's the son of Portuguese immigrants, I remained there until a few years ago. As an old git I went back to try and educate myself at University, it was during the early part of 2000, at a London establishment. There I met many people from all walks of life and age groups.

One of my fellow Law students was a young Glaswegian chap that was born in Pakistan, his desire was to see Sharia Law being integrated and upheld within the UK. Another fellow student, of foreign nationality of which I am unsure, wrote anti Bush slogans and pro-arab rhetoric on his exam papers that got him almost expelled from University and the Authorities called in.

Now all of this happened about 15 years ago, before matters of the world got to the stage and mess that they are in now. I have empathy for those that are caught up innocently in the tyranny caused by their own Governments, the intervention of Foreign Governments and terrorists from where ever. However not all immigrants are peaceful and many of those that have been displaced, though grateful to have somewhere safe, still resent the world that they find themselves in. I don't know what the answer is and on many levels there are differing problems, many of which cannot be easily resolved. 

However to believe that all that are fleeing or have migrated elsewhere are friendly is a mistake. Just my subjective opinion on what I have seen and experienced. I can only imagine that resentment for the West can only be worse given what has happened in the intervening 15 years.


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## Deithrian (Dec 26, 2015)

Verinia said:


> I tend not to believe stuff unless I see it with my own eyes. I spent thirty years working and living in inner city London, amongst families from more races, colours and creeds than one could count. My neighbour of 30 years was a devout Muslim who looked after my cats when I went away. My particular swimming pool , to use the previous analogy, was a very happy one, unwashed bodies, homeless people, kids peeing in the pool, regardless. We had successive refugees arriving, Ugandan Asians, Vietnamese, Somalians, Yugoslavians, and so on...all of them settled in soon enough and made for a wonderful city to work in...some were bad immigrants, some were good. It's called the real world. I don't see why anyone shouldn't be free to practice their religion wherever they go, this isn't the Dark Ages. It is up to each country to ensure their laws are kept and for its citizens/ residents to obey them. And if we're talking about integration, it would be great to know the number of expats/immigrants in Portugal at the moment who can speak Portuguese or even know who is in power in Govt at the moment, the name of a Portuguese pop star, or the most popular television soap! I really am amazed at how my fellow countrymen and women criticise Muslims for not integrating...it takes my breath away! Anyway, interesting discussion, but I won't comment further, I think made my point.


You used my analogy in a most disgraceful and offensive way. 

I feed street cats every day and I give food to a couple of elderly people in the neighborhood, because they can only afford to buy bread. 
I donate to animal rescue organizations, orphanages, artists, churches (yes they do take care of the poor), and to random homeless people I meet on the streets. 
My grandmother's village is half Muslim and half Christian, with both a Church and a Mosque. 
Every time I go fishing there I meet and talk politics with the local muslims and they are, dare I say, nicer than some supposed christians or atheist alike.
Through the years of my online experience I've been friends with people from more races and religions than I care to remember!

My pool analogy was not "Pool = Muslims" it was "Pool = Easy Access"!

Now I understand why you keep mentioning all the time how clean the muslims are where you lived. 
How disgraceful of you to think that my pool analogy was towards muslims.
My pool analogy is an actual fact!
If you enjoy swimming in a pool where children urinate, homeless people bathe, and couples have sex (forgot to mention this one), than that's your preference, but please don't twist my example to mean something it was not intended to.

Just like I said, some people like to flatter themselves with claims of tolerance


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## advolex (Mar 8, 2015)

I ought to be quiet, not to throw any more fuel on the fire, especially as Deithrian was so kind as to give me the examples I asked for. Let me just say on the further debate here, that my opinion is that a racist remark does not become less political only because someone claims not to be a racist due to past experiences, relations or similar. And no, I had not seen the "political" videos now to be seen on YouTube. Nor had I heard of the events covered in those videos. Had I done so before, I'm not sure that I would have felt that the events depicted justified the sentiment that calls for Sharia Laws are heard from the muslim minorities in DE and SE. (In one of the videos I hear that Fox News is censored in SE. Interesting stuff, but another topic)


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## Strontium (Sep 16, 2015)

My pool analogy is an actual fact!
If you enjoy swimming in a pool where children urinate,* homeless people bathe*, and couples have sex (forgot to mention this one), than that's your preference, but please don't twist my example to mean something it was not intended to.

Just like I said, *some people like to flatter themselves with claims of tolerance*


_Do you comprehend the Anglo French expression ""Hoist by ones own petard""??_


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## Deithrian (Dec 26, 2015)

Strontium said:


> _Do you comprehend the Anglo French expression ""Hoist by ones own petard""??_


A swimming pool is not a public bath, it's also not a toilet, or a place to have sex, or a washing machine, and certainly not all of these together.
It's meant for swimming  hence the name Swimming Pool.
I hope you comprehend that.


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## bom dia lisbon (Aug 8, 2013)

I hope that the next time someone posts some innocuous, useful information about a relatively commonplace bureaucratic procedure that it does not again turn into an anti-immigration rant/debate. Otherwise, this forum will surely be doomed.


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## Deithrian (Dec 26, 2015)

bom dia lisbon said:


> I hope that the next time someone posts some innocuous, useful information about a relatively commonplace bureaucratic procedure that it does not again turn into an anti-immigration rant/debate. Otherwise, this forum will surely be doomed.


I think there's a lot of misunderstanding floating around, so if you allow me, I will attempt to clear things up.

All of my comments and the comments of other people in this thread have been pro-safety, not anti-immigrant.

My cheer for more measures for immigrants in PT is due to the fact that I've suffered from the effects of less measures for the most part of my adult life.

With less measures, people with criminal record, from the country I'm in, were able to go to other places and do what criminals do.
Then they get caught by police and get shown on the national TV channels in those countries.

Now I've grown up with MTV, Cartoon Network, CNN, Hollywood and the internet.
You have no idea what it's like to meet the people I consider to share the same culture and values with, and to be absolutely hated by them, just because Criminal X from the country I was born, was able to do them harm, because of less regulations.

By the way... I can think of a certain country with 11 million illegal immigrants, some of whom were also able to do harm, due to lack of regulations, and now a certain someone is very popular because of that.

I consider the lack of regulations and strict rules for immigrants the Number One enemy for immigrants.
The lack of those things, allows for Bad people to move and to tarnish the reputation of Good immigrants.
Effectively making immigrants to be considered as pest in many countries these days.

The current bad image of immigrants is only because of the lack of regulations.

In my opinion this talks has been a pro-safety and pro-immigrants talk. It has also been anti-bad people who disguise as immigrants talk. But in no way has it been an anti-immigrants talk.

And I'm sure that the immigrants, with good intentions towards the country they want to become a part of, will absolutely agree.

My initial comment was not intended to spark a debate, but a debate happened.
I am glad that we are able to share the realities of the times that we live in on this forum.
If the admins of the forum decide that this talk is not of service to their goals, I wouldn't mind if they delete all my comments. Have a nice day!


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## oronero (Aug 24, 2012)

I agree with the above.

I have no issues with migration in whichever direction but managing it does need, otherwise unfair discrimination and hatred will rise.


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## scubajohn (Sep 13, 2015)

i live part time in th UK
some people ( who mainly live outside the uk )have no idea just how powerful muslims are 
FACT a muslim shop keeper was stabbed in his shop by a muslim why because he posted a sign in his window saying HAPPY EASTER TO MY CUSTOMERS. because its a christian thing. and one or two dont believe sharia is a threat look into it,A poster asked what do you mean by calls for sharia law lol it was answered
P,s dont even go there with predudice i lived and worked in a strict muslim country learnt a bit of the language and mixed in


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## Deithrian (Dec 26, 2015)

scubajohn said:


> i live part time in th UK
> some people ( who mainly live outside the uk )have no idea just how powerful muslims are
> FACT a muslim shop keeper was stabbed in his shop by a muslim why because he posted a sign in his window saying HAPPY EASTER TO MY CUSTOMERS. because its a christian thing. and one or two dont believe sharia is a threat look into it,A poster asked what do you mean by calls for sharia law lol it was answered
> P,s dont even go there with predudice i lived and worked in a strict muslim country learnt a bit of the language and mixed in


The Ottoman Empire tried to convert Bulgarians to Islam for 500 years with much, much, worst atrocities than stabbings.
(you can watch "Време разделно & Time of Violence (Part 2-2) BG-ENG" on youtube for more details. Warning!!! 18+ material)

The results are, 60% of the population today are Christian, 30% non-religious, and only 10% Muslim.

500 years of genocide for 10% of the population to remain in Islam is an absolute proof of how powerless radical Islam is.

The victories of radical Muslims are only illusions that evaporate as soon as people are presented with the freedom to choose.

The killing of innocent men, women and children is not an act of power, no matter which side you're on.

If you think that Muslims are powerful because they can kill unarmed civilians, non-muslims are ALSO capable of such crimes.
I'm absolutely sure, that there's an equal amount of idiots, on all sides, willing to kill and be killed.

Hopefully, peaceful people don't fall in their trap.

After all, who wants to be remembered like this?


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