# For discussion only



## pappabee (Jun 22, 2010)

A recent poster who wanted to ship something from the US to Mexico was told that they should get it to Laredo and then pick it up and bring it into Mexico saying that is was used personal property.

My question is, is this breaking the law or merely using the system to our best advantage?


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## mickisue1 (Mar 10, 2012)

pappabee said:


> A recent poster who wanted to ship something from the US to Mexico was told that they should get it to Laredo and then pick it up and bring it into Mexico saying that is was used personal property.
> 
> My question is, is this breaking the law or merely using the system to our best advantage?


In that particular case, it was. Books, etc from the poster's mother's house.

If it were brand new merchandise, I wouldn't be so sure, though.


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## FHBOY (Jun 15, 2010)

pappabee said:


> A recent poster who wanted to ship something from the US to Mexico was told that they should get it to Laredo and then pick it up and bring it into Mexico saying that is was used personal property.
> 
> My question is, is this breaking the law or merely using the system to our best advantage?


I suppose then it is a question of individual ethics. We have grown so accustomed to seeing so many people skate so close the ethical lines, go over them, and get away with it that we may tend to define it as "gaming the system" when we succeed and doing something illegal when we do not. People, do we not almost all of us game the system when we drive past the speed limit, after all it is the law, right?

AS to the personal property it all seems to depend on the the term "used" was for real used. That would make it legal to avoid tariffs/duty. If the intention is to bring new and unused goods across in this manner, then the answer is a definite "no".

In the second case, wouldn't the false used goods be picked up when the container is off-loaded onto the Mexican trucking company vehicle and inspected at the border?


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

So you buy something in Laredo, open the box, and briefly use the product. Is it used? I'm not about to go to Laredo and buy something for someone else and, while it is in the box, tell the aduana that it is used.


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## mickisue1 (Mar 10, 2012)

joaquinx said:


> So you buy something in Laredo, open the box, and briefly use the product. Is it used? I'm not about to go to Laredo and buy something for someone else and, while it is in the box, tell the aduana that it is used.


If you are like a certain male who lives in my house, your used things, if they are valuable enough, would look new, anyway.

SOMEONE has a tendency to save all packaging materials from things like receivers, TVs, laptops, etc. Because you never know when you will need to send them long distances, you know.

It goes without saying that the boxes have been opened with the utmost care, and the object will be reinserted exactly as it was taken out, even if it was 3 years previously.


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## edgeee (Jun 21, 2012)

*such a lucky girl*

i hope you thank him profusely and often for being so thoughtful and considerate!


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## FHBOY (Jun 15, 2010)

mickisue1 said:


> If you are like a certain male who lives in my house, your used things, if they are valuable enough, would look new, anyway.
> 
> SOMEONE has a tendency to save all packaging materials from things like receivers, TVs, laptops, etc. Because you never know when you will need to send them long distances, you know.
> 
> It goes without saying that the boxes have been opened with the utmost care, and the object will be reinserted exactly as it was taken out, even if it was 3 years previously.


Quote SWMBO: "Whaddaya mean 'you never know when you'll need it' it's useless [worn out/not needed/in the way/broken] throw it out."* Mickie, you have a pack rat, and I identify with him...but your pack rat seems to be a bit more OCD than I am. I save stuff, but like a chipmunk, forget where it is. 

Isn't moving going to be fun??? 

*PS - I still have my SSS Registration card and an original "Lindsay for Mayor" button from NYC, plus a collection of inoperable watches (maybe they will come back to life...you never know!) and the ubiquitous slide rule (who knows when I might run into Einstein or Oppenheimer or for that matter Howard Hughes)


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## FHBOY (Jun 15, 2010)

joaquinx said:


> So you buy something in Laredo, open the box, and briefly use the product. Is it used? I'm not about to go to Laredo and buy something for someone else and, while it is in the box, tell the aduana that it is used.


You see this is what I am saying. By definition if you buy an umbrella in Laredo, take it out of the wrapping, open it and then put it back, you can legally say it is "used", but ethically, the reason for "using" it was to skirt the law, not because it was necessarily raining. The motive for the "use" was not legit - but to comply, barely to the law. Not something I think I could live with.


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## Ken Wood (Oct 22, 2011)

FHBOY said:


> I suppose then it is a question of individual ethics. We have grown so accustomed to seeing so many people skate so close the ethical lines, go over them, and get away with it that we may tend to define it as "gaming the system" when we succeed and doing something illegal when we do not. People, do we not almost all of us game the system when we drive past the speed limit, after all it is the law, right?
> 
> AS to the personal property it all seems to depend on the the term "used" was for real used. That would make it legal to avoid tariffs/duty. If the intention is to bring new and unused goods across in this manner, then the answer is a definite "no".
> 
> In the second case, wouldn't the false used goods be picked up when the container is off-loaded onto the Mexican trucking company vehicle and inspected at the border?


Interesting discussion. I suppose we all face the ethics question from time to time, at least most of us do. *The speed limit scenario is an excellent example. Maybe if we determine that the breach of ethics is victimless, in our opinion of course, it is easier to go forward. The subject of the previous post that generated this thread seems to be completely on the high road on this one, but the discussion goes beyond that. 
My wife has a hobby that requires an occasional supplement from the states. More than once, at the border, even though we have precise receipts, etc, the agent has determined that the merchandise is more valuable that the receipts indicate, and has charged accordingly. It is never a great amount of money, always an amount that we are willing to pay to avoid a time consuming appeal that will delay the border crossing, so we cough it up and go on our way. These agents, two of them so far, are tempting me to change the status of a future item from new to used just to keep things on an even keel. I don't know that I will do this for such a small sum, but I think I could get it into my ethics package with no qualms. If I play by the rules and the agent does not, I lose each time I cross the border. By acting as they do, are they suspending the rules of fair play?


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## FHBOY (Jun 15, 2010)

Ken Wood said:


> Interesting discussion. ... I lose each time I cross the border. By acting as they do, are they suspending the rules of fair play?


Undoubtedly they are, but the question arises, like our mothers all said, "If everyone jumped off the Empire State building, would you?" I suppose that your "violation of ethics" is nothing great and waking up each morning a looking in the mirror you'd not see an unethical person, but one who fought fire with fire.

Our newbie, Edgee, has in his signature line "Two wrongs don't make a right, but three make a left." Your comment enters into the degree of wrong and the response to it. Wrong is not an absolute in many cases, it depends on the paradigm of "wrong", except for those indisputable wrongs that result in bodily harm or death of another, and even there are shades of gray.

Not to get to far off into the philosophical worlds of ethics, I suppose I could agree with you. In our lives we have all cut corners, but it is the amount and severity of the cuts that are the problem.

If it were not for the fact, you lucky people, that I am on my way to see a film, I could wax on about this indeterminably, but SWMBO is calling me, so I hope we'll see more discussion.

I end with something I heard in the dialog of "Buckaroo Bonzai - Across the Fifth Dimension" - an insane character says, "Character is what you are in the dark" - can we put Ethical into the subject and still have a truism?


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