# Estate Agents charges - selling property



## BBmatic

Hi there,
first post, thanks for a helpful & informative forum. 
A family member is considering engaging the services of an estate agent to sell his [residential, with surrounding land] property in central Portugal.
There are no particularly complex issues involved - the property was bought over 20 years ago, is fully paid up and legal and has never been subject to any wrangles about use/ designation.
Our main concern (apart from trying to ensure he chooses a reputable agent) is that the property finds its way onto the correct property-vending websites that attract the most online traffic: and therefore that the property will be viewed by the largest number of potential buyers.
Hence I have 3 initial queries, though I do anticipate asking other questions once this thread 'floats', so to speak.
1) If I'm allowed to ask this, which website/ websites generate worthwhile traffic from the vendors point of view? Is there a market leader (or two) we could take a look at?
2) Is one allowed to deal directly with a property website to get one's property advertised on it, or would you HAVE to engage an estate agent in order to get your property advertised on one of these sites? 
3) What is a 'typical' competitive percentage rate charged by an estate agent for a straightforward sale? Due to lack of complicating factors, we have been told he wouldn't even need a lawyer - but the estate agents percentages we have had suggested to us seem *high*, considering we are not seeking to maximise proceeds and hope for a relatively swift sale.

For example, in the UK I would be hoping to pay an estate agent something in the region of 1.75% - 2.5%. Considering property in Portugal presumably sells more slowly than in the UK, (& I assume competition for a vendor's business is keen among estate agents), is it unreasonable or unlikely to seek a similar percentage rate in Portugal? (eg, 2%).

Do estate agents in Central Portugal generally charge more than that? I realise there are variables - and we're not trying to get something for nothing, but some approximation as to a typical percentage charged by an estate agent would be very warmly appreciated!

thanks, and i hope everyone is in fine fettle today


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## siobhanwf

Estate agent fees here are normally 5% and not many will budge from that rate


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## BBmatic

Hi Siobhán,
thanks for that -- wasn't expecting it to be so high, but very helpful to know it.

If anyone has anything to add, or has a reply to questions 1 & 2 I'd be extremely grateful.

Also, do I need to have made a certain number of posts before being allowed to PM other members here?
thanks again


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## siobhanwf

Yes 5 posts are essential to avail of the PM facility (sending or receiving). 5 sensible ones that is 

Please not that I have sent you a PM with some information


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## BBmatic

Thanks again Siobhán,
it was your PM which I wanted to reply to - (just to say thanks!)


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## canoeman

Just another shock for you, yes commission is normally 5% but it is also + 23% IVA on the 5% so you must also allow for that.

I would strongly recommend that *you do not sign an Exclusive Contract* property is hard to move currently and the only way to get maximum exposure is to spread across a variety of "agents" or advertising sites, an Exclusive Contract stops you from doing this and quite honestly has very little benefit

Sensible pricing an absolute must

If property was bought post 1989 it will be subject to CGT so *you must check* as it could have considerable impact on the realized value especially if your family member is a Non Resident

If you PM me or post a property description then there are advertising sites that can work better for you than Registered Agents but I would suggest a mix of a local Estate Agent, a National Franchise (not ReMax as they only deal Exclusive) and a couple of internet "advertising agents"


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## BBmatic

Thanks for your reply, canoeman.
Some useful info, and it was interesting hearing your concluding point about a sensible marketing strategy.

I will check the dates again shortly but I'm pretty sure it was pre-1989.

At present I'm keen to get my post count above 5, if anyone wants to chip in again, (so that I can reply again, however briefly) I'd be really grateful!

Another question I was so far withholding but would love a reply to to is:

If your plot has a (fully legal) house on it, is it safe to assume that a purchaser (should they so wish) would likely legally be permitted (pending seeking permission /complying with local council regs etc) to replace the existing structure with another of similar size, (or possibly slightly larger)? 
Is there a regulation anywhere that says: once a house is built, you cannot knock it down and build a slightly better or bigger one?
I guess i'm also interested to know if extending a residential dwelling is something that can be achieved without too much hassle/ red tape.
(Reasons to ask are numerous). I expect the answer will be: 'depends on the location and the local council', but thought i'd ask anyway! thanks again


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## siobhanwf

tou are so right in your comment _depends on the location and the local council'_

Things vary so much from one area to another


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## BBmatic

Thanks for reply, I'll be up to 5 posts any minute now 

Main reason I asked is not because the house is tiny or crumbling - but because the surrounding land is disproportionately large; the houses nearby are bigger, but have much smaller acreage attached...and because we hear contradictory theories depending on who you talk to.

If anyone has any further comment on that last query, pls feel free to answer further.


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## canoeman

AND each Article has an m2, only part of that m2 might have a permissible build area whether you'd get permission for extension or a larger re-build to simplify depends on how much of existing footprint has been build on permissible build m2

There isn't a regulation not to knock down but you'd require permission and sensibly you'd need planning permission to re-build,which might be refused should the property fall into a Reserve Zone or under new fire build laws. 
Demolishing as an option would drastically affect price from a buyers per perspective.

In view of your next post is there more than 1 Article number, if so an option might be to sell as separate units but so much depends on location in reference to existing property and neighbours


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## BBmatic

canoeman said:


> AND each Article has an m2, only part of that m2 might have a permissible build area


Is there a failsafe way to check that oneself, or does one need pro help finding out stuff like that?
Another thing - is there a failsafe way to view the land boundaries because the only drawing we have is a very rough one! I'm also very curious what the total land area is and wonder how people measure that, generally? [sorry to sound so thick, we're at the very outset here].

Thanks. Trying not to overkill asking too many questions here, but its still not letting me send PMs.. [thought it was 5 posts but maybe not!]


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## canoeman

Ah well chances are property bought 20 odd years ago won't have the true m2 reported, Portuguese very wary about declaring correct m2 as it forms a basis for tax

Your *declared* m2 will stated in the Escritura, Caderneta Predial from both Financas and the Conservatoria which will also give you the Article Numbers, Registration, the designation of the land i.e. Urbana, Rustica etc also your neighbours to all points of the compass

If you're registered for online access to relatives NIF number you can print off Caderneta Predial for Finanacas if not personal visit generally free, Conservatoria the right Solicitor can obtain cheaper than you, otherwise personal visit about 50€ last time I did it but that was 3 years ago.
Official copies of both are required dated within 1 year of date of selling Escritura.

Failsafe way normally boundaries are marked by posts, rocks if you're lucky but it's important to establish when selling so no disputes arise, depending on how good the Camara or Junta da Fresguesia maps are then Articles might well be marked again personal visit

Measure with a tape measureor theres probably an app for a smart phone these days, you could have a professional survey done but you need boundary points and unless you need for planning etc an unnecessary expense


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## BBmatic

Hi again canoeman,
again I must say thanks.
Can you clarify: when you write: 
"Official copies of both [cadernata predial, and conservatoria] are required dated within 1 year of date of selling Escritura" - what does that mean in laymens terms? Something we must do *subsequent* to selling the property? [embarrassingly, I'm not even quite sure what Escritura means..]

Sorry if I'm going very slowly here. i will try my best to keep questions pertinent and obviously at some point soon i'll probably need to visit and resolve some of these issues myself..there is only so much I can do from here but anyone replying, your generosity is v much appreciated.


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## canoeman

Escritura is the deed signed by both parties when a sale/purchase is made 20 odd years ago it would have been done in front of a Notary, now there are a couple of more options.

Escritura is your proof of purchase, price paid, what you purchased and who from, property then registered in buyers name with Conservatoria and Financas.

When you sell a property then you must supply or buyers Solicitor might obtain Official copies of Caderneta Predial from Financas and Conservatoria to prove current ownership, these copies must be dated within 1 year of the selling Escritura, so if you sold 31/08/13 the date can be no older than 31/08/12
Buyer would also request a Caderneta de Toer that says there's no debt outstanding to Financas


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## steve01

if you can find your property on google earth you can mark corners / markers on the picture and it will give you very accurate measurements - straight line lengths only but with a little imagination and some basic math you can realistically approximate total area


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## canoeman

If you use Path option you can make some quite intricate shapes


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## BBmatic

Thanks for those last points, both of you. sounds a tidy technological solution and i like my gadgets.. even if I'm too thick to use them most of the time!
I'm sorry i have been absent. work pressure today has made it impossible to think of anything else.


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## DREAMWEAVER1

we are purchasing in Portugal,our sellers Estate Agent appears to carrryout far more work on the legal side of a sale than a UK equivalent,I would guess that has some bearing on the increased charges I suspect?






David


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## canoeman

Yes they do do more of legal side but as such it's for seller and is part of their responsibilities as licensed Portuguese Estate Agents, very few buyers would take the risk of not having a Solicitor represent them and to check everything is legal and above board.

My personal opinion is that the majority overcharge and do very little for their 5%, and what they actually do on legal side is slight, 5% +23% IVA is a big chunk for the seller to pay and to a degree do push prices up, I even know of 1 agent in our area who is now charging 10% and expecting sellers to reduce their price further, whereas the ones who are prepared to negotiate and work for their commision are the ones that will survive this crisis.

If agents are more flexible on commission then buyer can also be more flexible on price, as a rough guide the difference between 5 & 3% commission is about 4,000€


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## steve01

Estate agents do no legal work whatsoever.
Theey are supposed to check that the seller owns the property and the property is legal - end of story.
This is not legal work its merely checking a couple of pieces of paper that they often ask you to supply

Be very wary of any estate agent who offers to do legal work for you. We had one in the Alentejo (based In Santiago)who not only took his 5-10% commision to sell also offered to take on the buyers side of the process (acting as legal representative) + unspecified and never appearing additional help for the 'i'll do it cheap for 5%" - we found out that most lawyers, who are insured and know what they're doing charge on average 1% for a better, legal and insured job.
thee state agent involved produced some papers and even put the wrong property address on them - if we'd used him we would have ended up with a very small plot next door instead of 5 hectares + a nightmare to sort it out later..
NEVER USE AN ESTATE AGENT FOR ANY OTHER WORK


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## BBmatic

Thanks for recent replies. Our situation is complex and unfolding but hopefully resolving itself soon. Our early impression of estate agents in Portugal hasn't been ideal; its been an eye-opener.
Apologies for not replying to PMs recently I have been away working.


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## MrBife

BBmatic said:


> Thanks for recent replies. Our situation is complex and unfolding but hopefully resolving itself soon. Our early impression of estate agents in Portugal hasn't been ideal; its been an eye-opener.
> Apologies for not replying to PMs recently I have been away working.


To become a real estate agent in Portugal you need to show up to a few lectures and complete a multiple choice questionnaire. You then pay your money and you are given your certificate and unleashed on the world.

No professional qualifications or experience needed.

The only requirement is that you have to bleat on about the fact that buyers should only buy through an approved agent ! Just to preserve the facade.

It's not surprising that most fail to impress is it


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## oronero

MrBife said:


> To become a real estate agent in Portugal you need to show up to a few lectures and complete a multiple choice questionnaire. You then pay your money and you are given your certificate and unleashed on the world.
> 
> No professional qualifications or experience needed.
> 
> The only requirement is that you have to bleat on about the fact that buyers should only buy through an approved agent ! Just to preserve the facade.
> 
> It's not surprising that most fail to impress is it


It appears to be little different to what happens in the UK then, you should be used to it!

IMO estate agents are on the same shelf as second hand car sales men...bottom feeders, as useful as a chocolate fire extinguisher!


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## canoeman

Major difference is the commission charged but like UK there are good and bad


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## oronero

canoeman said:


> Major difference is the commission charged but like UK there are good and bad


Okay, I admit I may have been a bit harsh....I just don't like the majority of those that I have met from either so called profession!


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