# Restoration projects versus new build ???!!!!???!!!



## lesleyjay (Jul 14, 2012)

I am currently in the process of saving madly to get my deposit together for my dream home in Spain . I have made list after list and they all seem to be pointing towards a restoration project . So the question I pose is if you have restored a country property would you recommend it and if not why ? I know there are going to be obstacles to over come along the way and I am looking to do it over a few years . So if you have the time to advise me of any pitfalls I should be aware of I would be very grateful . 
Lesleyjay


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Well, this is probably the best time to do it, with falling property prices and lots of unemployed builders desperate for work!

The biggest concern is making sure the legal issues are sorted out. Spanish planning regulations are a bit of a nightmare and can vary from place to place. Make sure you get a good solicitor, NEVER use one recommended by the owner or the agent, and get everything double-checked. Don't part with any money until you have a cast-iron guarantee that there are no outstanding debts or taxes due on the property.

Then all you need is a good architect to guide you through the building regs ... 

Buena suerte!


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

lesleyjay said:


> I am currently in the process of saving madly to get my deposit together for my dream home in Spain . I have made list after list and they all seem to be pointing towards a restoration project . So the question I pose is if you have restored a country property would you recommend it and if not why ? I know there are going to be obstacles to over come along the way and I am looking to do it over a few years . So if you have the time to advise me of any pitfalls I should be aware of I would be very grateful .
> Lesleyjay


Hi Lesleyjay.
As it appears that every cent spent on your project has to count, I am going to say one thing first of all:
Work out your costs and then double them.

I dont say this lightly, I'm afraid.
We reformed a village house a few years ago. The house itself cost next to nothing, but the reform really did cost us twice the money we had originally laid out for it. And we thought we had planned everything down to the finest details.

You do not say how you would go about the reform. Would you be doing the building work, or would you be employing a builder or project manager?

Either way, unless you employ a company with workers licenced for things like installation of electricity, you will have to pay out for a licensed worker to come in, do any necessary alterations to work already done, and then give you the licence.
Getting our electrical work up to standard to be licenced cost us nearly 3,000 euros more than we had budgeted for.

We also incurred costs when our original builder renaged on his contract and left our house unfinished (in fact this alone nearly doubled our costs). It happens quite a lot (although in our experience, this was with brit builders. We had no bad experience with Spanish builders - apart from a plumber who decided that the unblocking of our drains was worth 200 euros for ten minutes work, but thats another story...).

At the very least, you will need to employ someone who knows the rules on getting building licences. Those can be a nightmare in themselves.

And of course an architect who knows what is and what is not allowed - a good architect may appear costly, but he or she will be a bargain in the long run.

Be very careful with country properties. Some will not be legal, as they will have been built on agricultural land.
A family may have lived in the property for years, but this does not make the house legal - merely that it was built without the go ahead from the local council (or in some cases, they got the go ahead and then the regional council said that the house was illegal).

Do a web search on "illegal properties in Spain" and see what comes up. It should help to warn you of at least some of the pitfalls.

Dont expect your reform project to be finished any time near your original estimation. It will probably take many months longer (hopefully not years!).
So you will need to think about somewhere to live while the work is going on and add this to your list of expenses.

Above all, as Alcalainer said, get yourself a good solicitor. Ask for recommendations from locals, never from the agent or seller.

And while you are at it, a good gestor would help too, especially if you are still learning Spanish.

A good gestor can help you with many things, from going along to get your NIE, to sorting out bank accounts and liaising with your solicitor and architect.
(our gestor even gave us a long and detailed tour of the area - tapas bars included - and yet he was very cheap to hire. He actually made all the hard work and frustration more enjoyable).

Good luck!
It will all be worth it in the end. Honestly!


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## lesleyjay (Jul 14, 2012)

Thank you so much both of you for your advice it really is worth it's weight in gold ! I knew there would be lots and lots to think about and the list keeps getting longer . If I buy a property that is "habitable" is there a Spanish equivalent to a survey to check things like electrics ,foundations ect .? 
Lesleyjay


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Having restored several houses in the UK over the years including listed property I would say do your costing and then add 30%, you will always miss something or uncover something your initial inspection missed.


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## maxd (Mar 22, 2009)

Always easier to build new than renovate. Renovation is usually from the top down and there are always nasty surprises along the way. Having done a 3 storey renovation I would lean towards a new build next time.

If you use concrete you can save a shed load on labour by pouring in the walls and foundation. It can shave 3 months off the contract.

A lot of people underestimate how much building costs. You are going to employ skilled/semi skilled 3 people for anything up to a year. They are going to want up to 10 euros an hour so that is almost 6k a month.

On top of that you have to buy material and material really costs some coin. TBH the way spain is going it would be cheaper to buy than build. I would save yourself blood, sweat and tears and buy someone else's dream who has to sell.

Houses cost say 800-1500 euros a meter to build depending on the level of finishing. I would say if you can get something for 1000 euro/m2 or less you are getting the house for cost.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

One more warning, the house may be perfectly legal, probably quite old as you are reforming it and therefore might have a complex history of ownership. If, having bought it, renovated it and lived in it for several blissful years, suddenly there is knock on the door and some long lost cousin lays claim to it. And in such circumstances, the long lost cousing, assuming they can proove their rights, will take the whole property from you. So, you need to ensure you have an excellent gestor etc. Even if you don't require a mortgage get a small one anyway because banks will do checks to make absolutely certain there are no skeletons in the closet....


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## lesleyjay (Jul 14, 2012)

My goodness that really is a scary thought . If that was to ever happen would it not be the responsibility of the solicitor for not getting it right at the time it was bought ?


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## lesleyjay (Jul 14, 2012)

maxd said:


> Always easier to build new than renovate. Renovation is usually from the top down and there are always nasty surprises along the way. Having done a 3 storey renovation I would lean towards a new build next time.
> 
> If you use concrete you can save a shed load on labour by pouring in the walls and foundation. It can shave 3 months off the contract.
> 
> ...


Thank you I'm just at the very beginning of getting all my information together before I buy and you have helped enormously. There really is so much to think about . The dream of a home in Spain isn't a smooth run I am beginning to learn .


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

I agree that it will probably be better to buy a finished property rather than build new or renovate - it would be around here (southern Andalucia). Building costs, particularly materials, are high and property prices are low.


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

lesleyjay said:


> My goodness that really is a scary thought . If that was to ever happen would it not be the responsibility of the solicitor for not getting it right at the time it was bought ?


Well yes it would and you could of course sue them.
The Spanish courts are filled with expats suing solicitors, project managers, builders, housing complex owners, off plan agents, etc.
Eventually most of them win their cases, but it takes quite a few years to get a judgement and then you have to wait for the pay out....

But what Thrax described is a rarer case than finding a house is illegal or having problems with a project manager. It can happen though, which is why Thrax's suggestion to take out a small mortgage with a bank is good advice.
Banks certainly do not want to lose any more money than they are right now.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

maxd said:


> Always easier to build new than renovate. Renovation is usually from the top down and there are always nasty surprises along the way. Having done a 3 storey renovation I would lean towards a new build next time.
> 
> If you use concrete you can save a shed load on labour by pouring in the walls and foundation. It can shave 3 months off the contract.
> 
> ...


Your quite right regarding costs, but some folk like the character of older properties and are prepared to pay the extra to get it, I have.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

maxd said:


> Always easier to build new than renovate. Renovation is usually from the top down and there are always nasty surprises along the way. Having done a 3 storey renovation I would lean towards a new build next time.
> 
> If you use concrete you can save a shed load on labour by pouring in the walls and foundation. It can shave 3 months off the contract.
> 
> ...



Around here , in the pre-crisis times, it used to be 550€/m2 build costs. There was at least 50% sheer profit in that as well!
Many materials here have dropped considerably in price since the crisis began. 

I have an article here from the college of Illustrious Architects , from around 2004/5 , showing the total build costs for a 5 bed, 3 bath, 3 storey house complete with double garage to be less than 80k €'s. This includes just under 15k for all plans , architect & Archtect's technician ( who ensures the job is built to plan ), materials & labour. Always seemed surprisingly cheap to me but working on the threee thirds rule, one third for land, one third for building costs & a third for profit , it would seem correct.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

But larger homes are almost always cheaper per sq metre then smaller. The land costs don't go up with more floors. An extra bedroom is relatively cheap. I guess most of the planning costs don't really scale up either.


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## lesleyjay (Jul 14, 2012)

bob_bob said:


> Your quite right regarding costs, but some folk like the character of older properties and are prepared to pay the extra to get it, I have.


I think your right it's the country properties that gets my heart racing . I love the quirkyness and the character of this type of property . I'm not thinking I can get my dream place and have it the way I want it in a few months I am more than happy with buying somewhere and doing it within a few years .


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## Cazzy (Nov 23, 2008)

A friend of ours just got a quote from our local Spanish builder to reform an adjoining house to one that he has already reformed.

The house is solidly built but without electric and water. The builder is putting a new roof on, making 3 bedrooms upstairs and installing a bathroom. Downstairs he is putting in a basic kitchen and installing another bathroom, there will also be a dining room and lounge downstairs. He is making good all walls and ceilings (which are a mess) having all the windows restored, tiling the upstairs, painting the whole house white, putting all new internal doors in and a new front door, conecting the water and electric.
All this for a guaranteed 45k The house is 240sqm in total. Personally I think this is a great quote!!


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## Solwriter (Jan 10, 2012)

Cazzy said:


> A friend of ours just got a quote from our local Spanish builder to reform an adjoining house to one that he has already reformed.
> 
> The house is solidly built but without electric and water. The builder is putting a new roof on, making 3 bedrooms upstairs and installing a bathroom. Downstairs he is putting in a basic kitchen and installing another bathroom, there will also be a dining room and lounge downstairs. He is making good all walls and ceilings (which are a mess) having all the windows restored, tiling the upstairs, painting the whole house white, putting all new internal doors in and a new front door, conecting the water and electric.
> All this for a guaranteed 45k The house is 240sqm in total. Personally I think this is a great quote!!


I think that's a great quote too.

But I would still be checking very carefully that the builder ticked all the boxes I had on licensed workers, following building regs, etc.


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## Cazzy (Nov 23, 2008)

Solwriter said:


> I think that's a great quote too.
> 
> But I would still be checking very carefully that the builder ticked all the boxes I had on licensed workers, following building regs, etc.


 He is a very good builder and has done all the work on our house, always gets a license and makes a good job, we always recommend him, he also speaks a little English and knows what the Brits expect!!


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## maxd (Mar 22, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> Around here , in the pre-crisis times, it used to be 550€/m2 build costs. There was at least 50% sheer profit in that as well!
> Many materials here have dropped considerably in price since the crisis began.
> 
> .


This seems a bit too cheap to me, the build cost in Dubai is about that but they use cheap INdian labour.

Spanish Property: Construction & Renovation I found this which suggests € 700 to € 900 per m2.

Thinking about it I gave northern european prices where we have more insulation/heating etc. I guess building in Spain is floor tiles and windows and not much else


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