# The US is Too Dangerous!



## conklinwh

I gather the thread on danger in Mexico has been removed but I just saw this article. Wonder if national news will issue travel warning for Tennessee.

JACKSON, Tenn. -- One man was killed and 19 other people injured after a shooting at a nightclub, police in West Tennessee said Sunday.
Officers were called to the Karma Lounge in downtown Jackson at about 2 a.m. Sunday and arrived to find one man dead, 17 people with gunshot wounds and two who were trampled, according to Jackson Police Lt. Tyreece Miller.
Miller said a dispute among several people led to the shooting. Evidence indicates at least three people used handguns to fire into the crowd.
According to WMCTV, the nightclub had advertised a Lane College and LeMoyne-Owen College after-game party. 
Lecarlos Todd, 19, of Memphis, was killed. Another shooting victim was in critical condition Sunday night at a local hospital.
Authorities released photos of two men taken by the club's video cameras. Miller said investigators want to question them.


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## Detailman

conklinwh said:


> I gather the thread on danger in Mexico has been removed but I just saw this article. Wonder if national news will issue travel warning for Tennessee.
> 
> JACKSON, Tenn. -- One man was killed and 19 other people injured after a shooting at a nightclub, police in West Tennessee said Sunday.
> Officers were called to the Karma Lounge in downtown Jackson at about 2 a.m. Sunday and arrived to find one man dead, 17 people with gunshot wounds and two who were trampled, according to Jackson Police Lt. Tyreece Miller.
> Miller said a dispute among several people led to the shooting. Evidence indicates at least three people used handguns to fire into the crowd.
> According to WMCTV, the nightclub had advertised a Lane College and LeMoyne-Owen College after-game party.
> Lecarlos Todd, 19, of Memphis, was killed. Another shooting victim was in critical condition Sunday night at a local hospital.
> Authorities released photos of two men taken by the club's video cameras. Miller said investigators want to question them.


Conklinwh,

Your previous thread has not been removed. There have been so many new threads in the last little while that your original thread is now on page 3. A new comment would bring it to the front.

I agree that there are many places in Mexico that are far safer than many US cities.

Detailman


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## Merida Yucatan

Most people understand there are safe places and unsafe places in US. It's a shame they don't extend this logic to Mexico. Too many people from north of the border write off all of Mexico as a place to visit now. I see it in comments on Yahoo news items on Mexico. I tell them that much of Mexico is safe. IE: Yucatan state is safer than any US states except Wyoming or Montana. The Mexico misinfo campaign in the US and Canadian press is a terrible way to reward Mexico for it's co-operation in the war on drugs. The misinfo costs jobs in Mexico - and thus encourages more Mexicans to work illegally in US.


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## El Blanco Sol

This perception of violence in Mexico by Americans borders on the absurd. I live in Saltillo. Very few problems here. When I talk to family and friends back in Philadelphia they are always inquiring as to my safety. This coming from people who live in the present day murder capitol of America. If I was to go by news accounts I would never set foot in Philly. Couple this with the shooting in VA, the school shooting in Ohio, Columbine, another mailman gone mad, etc. - they just don't connect the dots of what is happening in their own back yards. With only 17% of Americans holding passports (they don't travel outside their own borders much do they?) their perception of the rest of the world is slightly skewered. They still think they are the only country in the world with indoor plumbing and paved roads. Mama Mia!


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## conklinwh

I never want to trivialize violence anywhere but count me among the conspiracists when it comes to the US posture relative to violence in Mexico. I think that the US government and media have decided that playing up all of Mexico as a dangerous and failed narco state is in their best interests. I think that we all have our own speculations as to why.


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## Isla Verde

El Blanco Sol said:


> . . . .With only 17% of Americans holding passports (they don't travel outside their own borders much do they?) their perception of the rest of the world is slightly skewered. They still think they are the only country in the world with indoor plumbing and paved roads. Mama Mia!


Sad but true .


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## El Blanco Sol

An Afterthought. I was planning a visit to Philadelphia last year. Within the span of a week there were: 10 shootings; 7 rapes; a bomb found at Philly International Airport; 10 kilos of cocaine found at the bus terminal; dangerous levels of some toxic chemical found in the drinking water; a tourist robbed at knife point; maraudering "flash" mobs assaulting anyone in their path and various other felonies. I jokingly sent out an email stating that the Mexican State Department had issued a travel advisory to avoid Philly as a tourist destination and that I was postponing my visit back home. Tongue in cheek of course. You should have seen the number of replies I received questioning the reasoning ability of Mexican authorities. Enuf said!


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## FHBOY

*15 Year Old?!?!?*

Read the news yesterday? Fifteen y.o in Cleveland area killed one kid and left another kid brain dead - in a darn high school!

I don't read about that type of violence in México. My sis-in-law loves to send me clippings about how dangerous it is - I don't think she wants us to move there - better to move to the Gold Coast of Florida, right? - where crime is much worse!

Nope, alarmists and xenophobes will always find things to blow out of proportion. And yes, too many USA'er are so culturally insular from lack of experience they will believe (and repeat) anything. Why the heck don't they travel more...the world would better is they did. [Yet another reason to move - discovery of what really is, first hand - not from CNN or FoxNews - live life, not view it!]


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## ReefHound

El Blanco Sol said:


> With only 17% of Americans holding passports (they don't travel outside their own borders much do they?) their perception of the rest of the world is slightly skewered.


Bzzzt.

“More Americans have passports now than ever before,” says Ken Chavez, spokesperson for the Bureau of Consular Affairs at the US State Department. Over one-third of the population to be exact, or nearly 110 million out of 313 million Americans.

Of course that's lower than most European countries, for good reason. The USA borders only two countries (which didn't require passports until 2007). Compared to up to 19 for some European countries. And the USA is larger than all of Europe so plenty of travel options within her borders.

BTW, what percent of Mexicans hold passports?


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## Isla Verde

FHBOY said:


> Nope, alarmists and xenophobes will always find things to blow out of proportion. And yes, too many USA'er are so culturally insular from lack of experience they will believe (and repeat) anything. Why the heck don't they travel more...the world would better is they did. [Yet another reason to move - discovery of what really is, first hand - not from CNN or FoxNews - live life, not view it!]



Perhaps they don't travel more because they're already living in "the greatest country in the world"  .


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## RVGRINGO

Years ago, we used to cross into Canada just to shop or have lunch, go to the theater, etc. In later years, when we had our RV in the Rio Grande Valley, Arizona or New Mexico, we often crossed for many of the same reasons and also to visit doctors, dentists and 'farmacias'. Then, we moved to Mexico in 2001. While there, things really changed in the USA; paranoia broke out and became contagious. Soon, we had to get US passports, just to get back into the USA and, now, to maintain our Mexican visas. Next week, we get to spend $220 plus photos, plus the consulate's horrible treatment, just to renew them.


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## Merida Yucatan

Are there still horrible people working at US consulates ? Your tax dollar$ at work.


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## TundraGreen

Merida Yucatan said:


> Are there still horrible people working at US consulates ? Your tax dollar$ at work.


I have met lots of the people working at the US Consulate in Guadalajara. Without exception, they have been great people to meet. They tend to live in a high priced enclave, and they work isolated from all Mexicans except those applying for visas. So, they don't seem to see much of Mexico during their two year stint here, but they are nice people.


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## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> I have met lots of the people working at the US Consulate in Guadalajara. Without exception, they have been great people to meet. They tend to live in a high priced enclave, and they work isolated from all Mexicans except those applying for visas. So, they don't seem to see much of Mexico during their two year stint here, but they are nice people.


Maybe they're nice to you, TG, but I wonder if all the Mexicans denied US visas, often for flimsy reasons, would agree with you.


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## vantexan

Isla Verde said:


> Maybe they're nice to you, TG, but I wonder if all the Mexicans denied US visas, often for flimsy reasons, would agree with you.


Devil's advocate time. What if Mexico was the rich superpower? What if millions of poor ******** looked longingly across the Rio Grande at the land of milk and honey and decided they were going to sneak in and look for work? What if there were millions in Mexico illegally who came in on student visas and never left when they expired? What if some who came in on student visas were from countries who resented Mexico's foreign policies, as well as it's wealth. What if they caused thousands of deaths in a stunning attack? It's easy to always attack the U.S. government but they are charged with maintaining national security and the safety of it's citizens. Yes it's all very complicated. The U.S. has it's problems. Mexico has it's own. And, believe it or not, they aren't all caused by the U.S.. I can get in my pickup at night and drive somewhere with a reasonable expectation that I will arrive safely. I can't begin to count all the times I've seen warnings to not drive at night in Mexico. For many reasons. Mexico is great, I'm all for it. But don't kid yourselves. There's not one city in the U.S. that has had the problems that Juarez has had in recent years. Not by a long shot. That's what Americans see on tv. Blaming it all on American drug use won't change what has happened in Juarez and up and down the border. And the dirty little secret about Americans lacking knowledge about the rest of the world is this: it's a very expensive country that requires alot of hard work just to keep your head above water. Most people just don't have the time or energy to worry about or even wonder about Mexico or elsewhere. And from the comments I've read on forums like the Lonely Planet Thorn Tree there are plenty of people from other countries who despise American travelers. Pretty sad that Americans have to get it from their own too. Plenty of xenophobia in the States and out of the States too, including Mexico. Rant over.


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## tepetapan

vantexan said:


> Devil's advocate time. What if Mexico was the rich superpower? What if millions of poor ******** looked longingly across the Rio Grande at the land of milk and honey and decided they were going to sneak in and look for work? What if there were millions in Mexico illegally who came in on student visas and never left when they expired? What if some who came in on student visas were from countries who resented Mexico's foreign policies, as well as it's wealth. What if they caused thousands of deaths in a stunning attack? It's easy to always attack the U.S. government but they are charged with maintaining national security and the safety of it's citizens. Yes it's all very complicated. The U.S. has it's problems. Mexico has it's own. And, believe it or not, they aren't all caused by the U.S.. I can get in my pickup at night and drive somewhere with a reasonable expectation that I will arrive safely. I can't begin to count all the times I've seen warnings to not drive at night in Mexico. For many reasons. Mexico is great, I'm all for it. But don't kid yourselves. There's not one city in the U.S. that has had the problems that Juarez has had in recent years. Not by a long shot. That's what Americans see on tv. Blaming it all on American drug use won't change what has happened in Juarez and up and down the border. And the dirty little secret about Americans lacking knowledge about the rest of the world is this: it's a very expensive country that requires alot of hard work just to keep your head above water. Most people just don't have the time or energy to worry about or even wonder about Mexico or elsewhere. And from the comments I've read on forums like the Lonely Planet Thorn Tree there are plenty of people from other countries who despise American travelers. Pretty sad that Americans have to get it from their own too. Plenty of xenophobia in the States and out of the States too, including Mexico. Rant over.


 What are you doing following along on an EXpat forum.? Part of the job? If the world´s largest consumer of drugs did not consume drugs, there would be no drug war in Mexico. If the world´s largest consumer of drugs would not outsource the war and fight it on their own turf, life would be better in Mexico. If the world´s largest arms dealer would stop selling arms to who ever has the cash, many areas in the world would be a better place. It is cause and effect. 
By the way, how many dead from the high school shooting in Ohio? How about the night club in Miami last week?


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## joaquinx

vantexan said:


> There's not one city in the U.S. that has had the problems that Juarez has had in recent years. Not by a long shot.


Detroit!! 10 Most Dangerous Cities in the World in 2010 !!!


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## conklinwh

Even though 2010, it is interesting to know that you are almost 10 times as likely to be killed in Detroit as Juarez and more disturbing to me, you have about 75% the chance of being killed in New Orleans as Juarez. Mardi Gras anyone!


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## RVGRINGO

How about a night out in Harlem.........anyone?


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## Isla Verde

RVGRINGO said:


> How about a night out in Harlem.........anyone?


Actually, in recent years parts of Harlem have been "gentrified", so it's not such a dangerous area any more. It's even become a tourist destination. So things can change, and sometimes for the better.


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## FHBOY

*We're #2! (and #8)*

...on that list joaqnix linked to. #2 - behind Baghdad - and we are a "civilized" country (please not arguments about Iraq) - the US should not even be near the top of the list. My point being that within any civilized nation or any country for that matter there will be pockets of violence but to judge an entire nation, [as the generalizations about Mexico go] by them is not correct.

Jumping on the RV's Harlem comment: Do you judge all of New York City by what you perceive Harlem to be like? BTW - New York City as whole, including Harlem, has had the most dramatic reduction in crime in the US over the last 10 years - check the newspapers. Why? Targeted enforcement, intelligence and staffing, getting to the root of crimes before they occur. 

So what would that look like in Mexico? We all know it do something about the entire drug trade from both the supply and demand side of the equation. This War on Drugs is not an intelligent use of resources - as long as the demand is there, people will fight over it. If you think i am arguing for legalization and regulation of drugs int he US, you are correct - we already legalized and regulate the drug alcohol, the drug nicotine...don't get me started.

Is Mexico unsafe? Is New York unsafe? [Heck, I've said it before, Baltimore, my fair city, had 192 murders last year - and they consider that good!] Is the USA unsafe? Depends on what you read and where you live and who's supplying the information.


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## TundraGreen

That list was pretty casual. It says at the top "not in any particular order". And it says under Detroit "among the 10 most dangerous cities in the US", not the world. Without some consistent rates comparing the cities on the same basis (overall crime, or murders, total, or per 100,000 etc), it is just mildly entertaining drivel.


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## RVGRINGO

Back when I worked in other parts of the world, I found South Africa and Israel to be very uncomfortable places with unexpected violence. Of course, both were ugly places full of prejudice and separation of 'the other'. One has changed its ways but the other is getting worse by the day. Neither is very attractive to tourists. On the other hand, my time in the Middle East was otherwise very enjoyable, with many of the attributes that make Mexico so pleasant a place to live these days. How times change!


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## MaidenScotland

TundraGreen said:


> That list was pretty casual. It says at the top "not in any particular order". And it says under Detroit "among the 10 most dangerous cities in the US", not the world. Without some consistent rates comparing the cities on the same basis (overall crime, or murders, total, or per 100,000 etc), it is just mildly entertaining drivel.




Well said... I watched a programme last week that said Jamaica is the murder capital of the world. It all depends on what you watch and read.


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## makaloco

Before retiring in La Paz, I lived in Cairo for 25 years and felt as safe and comfortable there as I would anywhere. Folks in the US who were finally resigned to my being in Egypt freaked out all over again when they learned I was moving to Mexico. Now they're saying they're glad I'm out of Egypt. To me it's pretty much "wherever I go, there I am". But to those who've never really been anywhere, it's all about the eight o'clock news. After 911, friends in the US were emailing me in Cairo asking "Aren't you afraid?" I'd reply, "Aren't YOU?"


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## kazslo

MaidenScotland said:


> It all depends on what you watch and read.


And more so where the people reporting are getting their data. Is is based on government reports or private companies? Is there bias involved? What is actually included when one says 'murder' or 'violent crime' or 'dangerous'? What percentage of instances are actually reported to the source vs how many occur? 

Any point can be proven by statistics - I'm sure I can find some sort of numbers to show 'place x' is the safest in the world, and at the same time show it is the most dangerous; all by including and excluding certain data and correctly phrasing what that data represents.

Once I moved to Mexico I began to see through the government propaganda and overblown news stories (and not just about Mexico crime, but news in general), and have made it a point to make no assumptions about any place or occurrence until I experience it for myself.


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## Merida Yucatan

You are right that the US doesn't cause all of Mexico's problems. It is also true that US is 
immigrant friendly in some senses - such as allowing them to partake in political activities. 
Just the same, it would be most helpful if more of the media in US and Canada would not punish Mexico for it's co-operation in the "war on drugs". People NOB should be informed that much of Mexico is very peaceful.





vantexan said:


> Devil's advocate time. What if Mexico was the rich superpower? What if millions of poor ******** looked longingly across the Rio Grande at the land of milk and honey and decided they were going to sneak in and look for work? What if there were millions in Mexico illegally who came in on student visas and never left when they expired? What if some who came in on student visas were from countries who resented Mexico's foreign policies, as well as it's wealth. What if they caused thousands of deaths in a stunning attack? It's easy to always attack the U.S. government but they are charged with maintaining national security and the safety of it's citizens. Yes it's all very complicated. The U.S. has it's problems. Mexico has it's own. And, believe it or not, they aren't all caused by the U.S.. I can get in my pickup at night and drive somewhere with a reasonable expectation that I will arrive safely. I can't begin to count all the times I've seen warnings to not drive at night in Mexico. For many reasons. Mexico is great, I'm all for it. But don't kid yourselves. There's not one city in the U.S. that has had the problems that Juarez has had in recent years. Not by a long shot. That's what Americans see on tv. Blaming it all on American drug use won't change what has happened in Juarez and up and down the border. And the dirty little secret about Americans lacking knowledge about the rest of the world is this: it's a very expensive country that requires alot of hard work just to keep your head above water. Most people just don't have the time or energy to worry about or even wonder about Mexico or elsewhere. And from the comments I've read on forums like the Lonely Planet Thorn Tree there are plenty of people from other countries who despise American travelers. Pretty sad that Americans have to get it from their own too. Plenty of xenophobia in the States and out of the States too, including Mexico. Rant over.


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## vantexan

tepetapan said:


> What are you doing following along on an EXpat forum.? Part of the job? If the world´s largest consumer of drugs did not consume drugs, there would be no drug war in Mexico. If the world´s largest consumer of drugs would not outsource the war and fight it on their own turf, life would be better in Mexico. If the world´s largest arms dealer would stop selling arms to who ever has the cash, many areas in the world would be a better place. It is cause and effect.
> By the way, how many dead from the high school shooting in Ohio? How about the night club in Miami last week?


Why the need to validate your choices by constantly attacking the U.S.? American drug users are a minority in this country. Most people simply don't take illegal drugs. I follow along to learn about Mexico, not play the blame game. The Russians are also huge arms dealers, so are the French, the Israelis, the British, the Chinese, even the Brazilians. I'd love to see a world without weapons but if the U.S. stopped making them someone else would fill the void. It's very much like climate change. If the U.S. did everything perfect it still wouldn't stop global warming. The Chinese have already passed us as polluters and their economy isn't half of ours yet. But extremists in the U.S. are determined to make us perfect at the expense of our childrens' future. You can wish for things all day long but it isn't going to happen. If you want to compare apples to apples how many died in that nightclub in Monterrey? And what does it solve to do that? You want a better world? Practice Christian principles, whether you believe in it or not. If everyone truly lived the Christian life, and I'm not talking about people who claim to be Christians but do anything and everything, the world would truly improve. Until that happens you'll get more of the same.


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## vantexan

Merida Yucatan said:


> You are right that the US doesn't cause all of Mexico's problems. It is also true that US is
> immigrant friendly in some senses - such as allowing them to partake in political activities.
> Just the same, it would be most helpful if more of the media in US and Canada would not punish Mexico for it's co-operation in the "war on drugs". People NOB should be informed that much of Mexico is very peaceful.


I agree. But news outlets sell the sensational. If things like cruise ship passengers on an excursion get robbed keep happening what do you think will be reported? Shooting rampages in the U.S. get widely covered too. A free press isn't going to hold back on reporting the bad while pushing the good aspects.


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## vantexan

joaquinx said:


> Detroit!! 10 Most Dangerous Cities in the World in 2010 !!!


Look at the number of murders in Juarez since 2007. Detroit's violent crime rate includes rape, assaults, murders, armed robberies, etc. And that list is outdated as San Pedro Sula, Honduras is now the world's murder capital. Tegucigalpa is 3rd. And if we're talking regions, the Mexican border, if you included a strip 50 miles into Mexico from Tijuana to Matamoros, would be bigger than many American states. No American state would compare crime wise. Add private armies to the mix who routinely murder people, including police chiefs, mayors, journalists, Internet bloggers, even the family of a Mexican Marine who's last name was reported after he got killed fighting a cartel. Throw in dumping dozens of bodies on a busy highway, hanging beheaded bodies from overpasses, and you have a serious PR problem. I keep telling friends and family that I'll be fine. They think I've lost my mind. As long as this stuff keeps happening Americans are going to be fearful of visiting Mexico. And some being mad at me for just pointing that out isn't going to change anything.


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## AlanMexicali

*TJ*



kazslo said:


> And more so where the people reporting are getting their data. Is is based on government reports or private companies? Is there bias involved? What is actually included when one says 'murder' or 'violent crime' or 'dangerous'? What percentage of instances are actually reported to the source vs how many occur?
> 
> Any point can be proven by statistics - I'm sure I can find some sort of numbers to show 'place x' is the safest in the world, and at the same time show it is the most dangerous; all by including and excluding certain data and correctly phrasing what that data represents.
> 
> Once I moved to Mexico I began to see through the government propaganda and overblown news stories (and not just about Mexico crime, but news in general), and have made it a point to make no assumptions about any place or occurrence until I experience it for myself.



This is interesting:

In revived Tijuana, a new calm delights - and mystifies | McClatchy


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## terrybahena

"Most people simply don't take illegal drugs."
wow now there's a statement I find interesting....sorry I disagree vehemently. 
And just because someone will make guns, it still doesn't need to be us. I quit a job when I found out what we were manufacturing. Yes there are problems/issues everywhere.
So here's my statement: _*You must be the change you want to see in the world.*_


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## vantexan

terrybahena said:


> "Most people simply don't take illegal drugs."
> wow now there's a statement I find interesting....sorry I disagree vehemently.
> And just because someone will make guns, it still doesn't need to be us. I quit a job when I found out what we were manufacturing. Yes there are problems/issues everywhere.
> So here's my statement: _*You must be the change you want to see in the world.*_


Google drug usage statistics. The first one has excellent stats. Plenty of people abuse alcohol. But when you are talking illegal drugs the percentage of the population that uses on a regular basis goes way down. Those are the ones who sustain the demand.


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## El Blanco Sol

Any point can be proven by statistics

I read a quote once that said, "there's a lie, a bigger lie, then statistics". Interpret as you please.


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## FHBOY

Is it safe to say that we here on the Forum seem to have a larger view of the problem of drugs in Mexico? Are we among the those who see that demand is the impetus that drives it? 

Also, you who are there, see that the problem is not nationwide and in fact, if I am correct, only affects a small part of the country, that your every day life and that of the people in your community is not living in fear, but just going about business with the knowledge there is a criminal element, but it does not affect your behavior.


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## RVGRINGO

I've heard it said that the most dangerous drug in the USA is KoolAid!


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## pappabee

Ok everyone, hang onto your hats Pappabee is on his soapbox and loaded for bear. 

How can someone log onto this site and try to find out how safe we feel here in Mexico. Do they think that we’re so stupid that we would live some place where we didn’t feel safe just because we like home made guacamole? You can lie with statics as much as you want (governments have been doing it for years and take a look at your advertisements --‘this face cream will remove up to 90% of your zits’. That’s right “up to” that could also mean 2% so long as it doesn’t go over 90%).

If I lived in Juarez or did drugs everyday I’d be a little worried. But I don’t do either (by choice-I’m not stupid just dumb sometimes). So me and Alfred E. Newman will have the same mantra “What me worry!”

So let’s get off this kick and get back to the joyous times living in Mexico can bring. Everyone with half a brain knows that Mexico a problem with the cartels and with drug gangs but what they don’t have is drug gangs and cartels on every corner of every city. And the same thing is true of the US and Canada. I haven’t seen any advisories not to travel to LA or Chicago. 

To all of you who are so very worried about living in a “drug infested” area please don’t. go back from where you came and let the rest of us have the freedom of open roads and available parking. 

To those of you who have learned to love this country and its people, please join the rest of us in making Mexico our home. 

And to those of you who want to question my sanity because I choose to live here, why would you ask me questions since I am surly insane.


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## DNP

pappabee said:


> Ok everyone, hang onto your hats Pappabee is on his soapbox and loaded for bear.
> 
> How can someone log onto this site and try to find out how safe we feel here in Mexico. Do they think that we&#146;re so stupid that we would live some place where we didn&#146;t feel safe just because we like home made guacamole? You can lie with statics as much as you want (governments have been doing it for years and take a look at your advertisements --&#145;this face cream will remove up to 90% of your zits&#146;. That&#146;s right &#147;up to&#148; that could also mean 2% so long as it doesn&#146;t go over 90%).
> 
> If I lived in Juarez or did drugs everyday I&#146;d be a little worried. But I don&#146;t do either (by choice-I&#146;m not stupid just dumb sometimes). So me and Alfred E. Newman will have the same mantra &#147;What me worry!&#148;
> 
> So let&#146;s get off this kick and get back to the joyous times living in Mexico can bring. Everyone with half a brain knows that Mexico a problem with the cartels and with drug gangs but what they don&#146;t have is drug gangs and cartels on every corner of every city. And the same thing is true of the US and Canada. I haven&#146;t seen any advisories not to travel to LA or Chicago.
> 
> To all of you who are so very worried about living in a &#147;drug infested&#148; area please don&#146;t. go back from where you came and let the rest of us have the freedom of open roads and available parking.
> 
> To those of you who have learned to love this country and its people, please join the rest of us in making Mexico our home.
> 
> And to those of you who want to question my sanity because I choose to live here, why would you ask me questions since I am surly insane.


Go, Pappabee, Go! And don't hold back.

WashDC/SMA


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## Detailman

pappabee said:


> Ok everyone, hang onto your hats Pappabee is on his soapbox and loaded for bear.
> 
> How can someone log onto this site and try to find out how safe we feel here in Mexico. Do they think that we’re so stupid that we would live some place where we didn’t feel safe just because we like home made guacamole? You can lie with statics as much as you want (governments have been doing it for years and take a look at your advertisements --‘this face cream will remove up to 90% of your zits’. That’s right “up to” that could also mean 2% so long as it doesn’t go over 90%).
> 
> If I lived in Juarez or did drugs everyday I’d be a little worried. But I don’t do either (by choice-I’m not stupid just dumb sometimes). So me and Alfred E. Newman will have the same mantra “What me worry!”
> 
> So let’s get off this kick and get back to the joyous times living in Mexico can bring. Everyone with half a brain knows that Mexico a problem with the cartels and with drug gangs but what they don’t have is drug gangs and cartels on every corner of every city. And the same thing is true of the US and Canada. I haven’t seen any advisories not to travel to LA or Chicago.
> 
> To all of you who are so very worried about living in a “drug infested” area please don’t. go back from where you came and let the rest of us have the freedom of open roads and available parking.
> 
> To those of you who have learned to love this country and its people, please join the rest of us in making Mexico our home.
> 
> And to those of you who want to question my sanity because I choose to live here, why would you ask me questions since I am surly insane.


AMEN! I think you forcefully expressed the way many of us feel. I have never understood those who express opinions about things they know so little about. Yes it is only an opinion but even opinions should be based on some facts otherwise it is a meaningless opinion.

Some read newspapers NOB and thereafter have numerous opinions about Mexico although never having been here.

Others have visited Mexico for perhaps one or two weeks and thereafter make numerous comments about life in Mexico and feel they are an authority. What a laugh. Life doesn't work that way.

That is why I appreciate the comments of those that have truly lived in Mexico for many years. They have real experience and as a result much of what they say goes beyond an "opinion" (although they still give opinions) and becomes "fact."

Again, well said Pappabee!


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## RVGRINGO

I know so little of Mexico, as I haven't traveled all 31 states & probably never will. After all, I've only lived in Jalisco, but have driven the width of the country; between the Atlantic and the Pacific, as well as the 700+ miles up to the Texas border and back a few times. So, I can't offer a complete analysis of 'what it is like to live in Mexico'. A decade just isn't enough time and my Spanish is still rough around the edges. Nevertheless, we're only on our second home here but not planning to move anywhere else. We now have our 'burning permits' on file and will be cremated in Guadalajara; not right away, though.


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## Detailman

RVGRINGO said:


> I know so little of Mexico, as I haven't traveled all 31 states & probably never will. After all, I've only lived in Jalisco, but have driven the width of the country; between the Atlantic and the Pacific, as well as the 700+ miles up to the Texas border and back a few times. So, I can't offer a complete analysis of 'what it is like to live in Mexico'. A decade just isn't enough time and my Spanish is still rough around the edges. Nevertheless, we're only on our second home here but not planning to move anywhere else. We now have our 'burning permits' on file and will be cremated in Guadalajara; not right away, though.


 
Don't you dare sell yourself short! You are one of the ones that I was thinking of, along with a number of others, that dispense numerous "facts" as well as a few "opinions."

As an example, I have recently enjoyed reading numerous posts about crossing the border by foot and various ramifications. The opinions were numerous and varied but in several instances you cut through erroneous opinions and brought people back to facts, along with the reasoning behind the facts and the dangers of not following through with certain procedures.

That is what I enjoy because: (1) it is something that I can rely on; and (2) it provides facts as to the dangers and repercussions if I do not follow the correct procedures. That is helpful for then a person has an understanding as to why they should do something a certain way.

Again I say, nothing beats "experience." (And will all the nitpickers out there not start another thread about how everyone's experiences differ! I am fully aware of that but certain experiences produce facts rather than simply opinions. You simply have to be adept at reading between the lines to know the difference.)

Thank you RVGringo and others.


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## FHBOY

RVGRINGO said:


> I know so little of Mexico, as I haven't traveled all 31 states & probably never will. After all, I've only lived in Jalisco, but have driven the width of the country; between the Atlantic and the Pacific, as well as the 700+ miles up to the Texas border and back a few times. So, I can't offer a complete analysis of 'what it is like to live in Mexico'. A decade just isn't enough time and my Spanish is still rough around the edges. Nevertheless, we're only on our second home here but not planning to move anywhere else. We now have our 'burning permits' on file and will be cremated in Guadalajara; not right away, though.


I SHOULD HOPE NOT! 

I mean I haven't archived all of your stuff yet nor published the RVGRINGO GUIDE TO LIVING. Give me some time to get it all together!


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## FHBOY

Back to pappabee's post - which is a great one! You who are there and we who are moving there have weighed our choices, no one has held a gun to our heads and said, "Move to Mexico!" or else. We have also investigated our choices as mature, intelligent people and found the positive factors in moving outweigh the negative factors, and that the chances of a better life style, for us, lies elsewhere.

Are the naysayers and Chicken Little's looking for us to say that we have made/are making the wrong choice? Pappabee is correct, we've thought this through - and know that our move is the correct one.

So, why can't we have more positive topics here? Like - day trips from (wherever you are living), the festivals to look for and when, if you've found a great (restaurant, resort, road...). Real help from those already there on the way to make it work, not the reason it won't work. 

If I want to hear about Mexico from people who aren't there, I'll read the newspapers, or watch TV. 

Yes there is danger everywhere, but why does it seem we are defending our decisions?


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## RVGRINGO

Probably because many of us, who have lived here and elsewhere on this planet, are simply getting really sick and tired of the same crap, over and over again, from people who can't read maps, won't take the time to read history, have little knowledge of geography and are just too GD accustomed to living in a 'nanny state' and continue to believe that it is the best the world has to offer. Meanwhile, they want to change everything to match exactly what they may be running away from. Meanwhile, their little world crumbles around them, making them hate 'the other' even more; be it the political, racial, ethnic, cultural, religious or simply geographical 'other'. Some few actually believe that there are mythological or imaginary beings supporting their positions & follow 'gurus' who feed on them, while actually knowing the childish futility of such dependencies. 
It does get tiresome, doesn't it? There; now I can take off my curmudgeon hat.


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## FHBOY

RVGRINGO said:


> Probably because many of us, who have lived here and elsewhere on this planet, are simply getting really sick and tired of the same crap, over and over again...There; now I can take off my curmudgeon hat.


*Naaah, you can never take off your curmudgeon hat, you curmudgeon. * - you wouldn't be you with out it!

HIGH PHILOSOPHICAL DISCUSSION: (way off the topic of the thread)
While I do have a belief that there is something beyond the rational that we can't understand (that's why it is beyond the rational) what it is can be summed up in this: "Do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you". People can call this what they may, may fight over "who" said it, and even start ridiculous wars over it, but it is basis of a moral life and fighting and dying over it is contrary to the teaching. In my view the "other" is not to be hated unless the individual other does something directly to me to make me hate him/her, and then it is that individual only - not a whole group of people and this is true no matter where you are - it doesn't have to be in México.

Also, it is agreed that people moving to another place that try and make that place more like the place they came from are not doing anyone any good. For example, take the Phoenix area. In the early to mid 20th century, people moved there to get rid of allergies and hay fever and respiratory ailments. There was beautiful rock gardens, sand vegetation, and very little grass and shrubbery that they were used to and they felt better. But they missed their flora, so they planted it, grew grasses, put in flowers from their native places and VOILA! got back the hay fever, allergies and respiratory ailments (discounting the pollution that hangs over Phoenix) they came there to get away from...so they ruined the very reason to go there.

We are moving to, yes, get away from the things that are "not right" to us here or that we don't want to put up with (read snow and cold). While we do not have the fortitude to "go native" in a small town, it is our hope that where we move does not lose the reason why we moved. There is so much more than what we have lived yet to be experienced - otherwise, why leave?


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## conorkilleen

You guys and gals all bring up valid points...however when the news says total of 331 people found in mass graves in Durango and few months before 200+ in San Fernando, you can't blame someone for having an opinion.....even if they don't have a passport and/or ever left the "holler".

It is all what you make of it, want to make of it, and what you perceive as the real dangers. RV and I have had a long running joke that the greatest danger here in Monterrey is stepping off a curb and getting wacked by a bus. That is very true, but also true is that there are many areas of Monterrey (where I choose to work and raise my very young family of 4) that are violent. You know what? Don't go there. You don't need a 200 peso tourist map to tell you that these places are shady.

Knock on wood...the only thing horrible that has happened to me here in Monterrey, or Mexico as a whole, is having my identity stolen and my BOA Debit card cloned and used in Costco Leon Leon to buy $1,000 of who knows what. This happened on Tuesday. I cancelled the card 15 minutes after I was notified and the transaction that someone made was cancelled as well. No huge lose other than I need to wait till next week to receive my new card.

All that being said.....I still am firm in my statement that I have crafted in response to all of the US armchair travelers when they get down on Mexico and chastise me for moving here with my family "Well, who said I ever invited you to come visit?".


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## no more snow

Merida Yucatan said:


> Most people understand there are safe places and unsafe places in US. It's a shame they don't extend this logic to Mexico. Too many people from north of the border write off all of Mexico as a place to visit now. I see it in comments on Yahoo news items on Mexico. I tell them that much of Mexico is safe. IE: Yucatan state is safer than any US states except Wyoming or Montana. The Mexico misinfo campaign in the US and Canadian press is a terrible way to reward Mexico for it's co-operation in the war on drugs. The misinfo costs jobs in Mexico - and thus encourages more Mexicans to work illegally in US.


I have been spending the past few months researching Mexico and areas to move. I have bought books, travelling to, read for HOURS online, investigated volcanoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, cost of living and so many more things that I cannot even list here. I have taken the advice of many on this forum and changed my perspective from 'looking to purchase a property' to 'looking to rent a property' and have also accepted the fact, as a realist, that violence is indeed everywhere.

I currently reside in Ontario, north of Barrie, in an extremely small town. We bought a lot in a forest and built our home. We are on a dead end street so whomever should drive down the road will be noticed by someone on the street. Having said that, there are 6 year round residents here, including us, with the rest of the extremely long dead end street being seasonal cottagers.

We have cameras all outside our home - originally as a safety measure for me because I am one of those paranoid folks but now it is mainly for me to see what animal has come out of the forest and to watch them move around my property. I love it!

I feel extremely safe here even though if someone were to ever break in, no one would hear my screams. 

I grew up in Toronto and always felt safe. As a young adult in my 30's I spent much time in Downtown Toronto, (Yonge Street), at night walking with friends, drinking coffee till the wee hours of the morn in Frans at Queen & Yonge, etc., etc. I always felt safe - and trust me - Queen & Yonge at 3a.m. - you see all types of different people!!

Where am I going with all this babble?

What I have found that are the only factors in making me hesitant about Mexico is what appears to be an issue for a non-Spanish speaking person to obtain legal assistance quickly if they were to be in danger and to locate precise areas that a new expat could feel safe until they learned about their new surroundings.

I am just putting this out there as a suggestion that the perception of Mexico being too dangerous for many is that it is made quite clear in what we read - in forums, online on other areas, the news, etc., that obtaining police assistance quickly is not an easy process for a new expat who does not speak the language. This of course, would be true for any country, but add to that many items that discuss how prudent one should be locking their doors, being aware of their surroundings, being aware of who may be working on the street, compounds the fears. Now add that when we read these articles we just clump them into one pile in our head called 'Mexico'.

This, of course, is not only happening when we read about Mexico. We all have to be prudent as above no matter where we are, but becoming an Expat takes one out of their comfort zone. If language is different that makes the scenario much more harder to adapt to quickly and if the authorities need to be spoken to in the foreign language, then it is only natural to try and picture oneself in an emergency situation, already tongue tied in their own language because of the adrenaline, trying to communicate to someone in a foreign language, that this said person is in immediate need of assistance.

I would like to also suggest, that I would be correct to assume, that many of us live in many dangerous cities and towns. The difference is, we know what areas to avoid. I, for one, would no longer attempt to walk down the streets of 'Little Italy' alone now because things have changed there. Oh the police are still there and still respond very quickly but it has become, in some parts, a haven for drug users and many thefts. So, an area I would avoid. My choice and I already know that area.

Queen & Yonge at 3a.m.? Not anymore either. It too has changed. Again, I know that area.

However, many, many, many areas of Toronto and its' surrounding suburbs are perfectly safe.

BUT, if a person looking to move to 'Toronto' were to read our Toronto Star or Toronto Sun front page only for one week online, they would most likely run as far away as they could and as fast as they could. Why? Because one, they most likely have no clue where those particular areas of 'Toronto' are so they clump those articles into their heads and label them 'Toronto' and two because, as with everywhere else, the media loves to print all the bad stuff to get the readers.

Perhaps on this forum an area could be started that was called 'The Kindness In Mexico' or 'Neighbours Helping Neighbours' or something outside of 'the beauty of the country', etc., as in visual perspective. People already are somewhat aware of how beautiful the country is. That's one of the many reasons they are considering moving there. They (we) need to begin to hear what parts of Mexico are considered safe and a location where an expat may feel most comfortable starting out. Give names of towns, street names, intersections, directions and where this area is located - coastal, The Yucatan, Lakeside, as well as within those areas what has been with the least amount of crime. With the larger areas as The Yucatan, specify where in The Yucatan, or Baja or Lakeside, etc.

Most of you here know all these things - just as I know about certain parts of Toronto, Barrie, Orillia, Midland, Muskoka, etc., etc. Perhaps if this started getting posted, in a separate area, more people could accept that, yes, at the border currently, there is much trouble. They would say to themselves, 'okay, so that's not an area I will move my family but look here at this posting; Lakeside (as a for instance) sounds lovely, very little crime, a police presence that genuinely seems to care and a numerous amount of people watching out for one another'......

Okay, I apologize that this has been so large and I am prepared for rebuttals but I have been reading so much here and on other local to Mexico town forums and there is so much discussion on the crime and not enough on the areas with lack of crime. I know there has to be some so I would love to hear suggestions because I do have some areas in mind that I would consider renting in but I would love to hear about more and I know that there are many, many more readers seeking the same info.

Don't forget - if a person Googles 'Crime in Mexico', THAT is exactly what they will get and a lot of the results that come up are from posts within forums and blogs.

Why not start one that says 'Crime In Mexico - Not Here'........or 'Crime In Mexice - the least amount here'......etc.

Then maybe one that's titled 'Crime In Mexico - If It Happens To You, Here Are The First Things You Do'.......... or 'Crime In Mexico - Follow These Steps to Resolve Your Issues Quickly'........ Google will respond, perspective expats will begin to feel like they do stand a chance making that step and the stuff at the border can stay there until Mexico is able to take it's country back in full!

Hope you haven't all fallen asleep and that I haven't overstepped because I'm a newbie but I just wanted to put it out there to show what info is lacking for new expats searching for assistance.

Many thanks for listening,
NMS.....


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## conklinwh

In math terms, it is much harder to prove a negative. Likewise it is much harder to prove someplace is safe. I'm very much pro-San Miguel as a starting point for someone without strong Spanish skills and wants to transition. Yes, there are probably some parts of some colonies that are less safe but the crime statistics in total are minuscule. Your concern about an English speaking police contact was an issue and in fact the municipio put in place such a contact group. BTW, you can get weekly crime statistics in the weekly online Atencion if you want to track and they do by colonia.


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## no more snow

conklinwh said:


> In math terms, it is much harder to prove a negative. Likewise it is much harder to prove someplace is safe. I'm very much pro-San Miguel as a starting point for someone without strong Spanish skills and wants to transition. Yes, there are probably some parts of some colonies that are less safe but the crime statistics in total are minuscule. Your concern about an English speaking police contact was an issue and in fact the municipio put in place such a contact group. BTW, you can get weekly crime statistics in the weekly online Atencion if you want to track and they do by colonia.


So, San-Miguel (one of my choices by the way!) would be a place that an perspective expat MAY consider researching. Wonderful. Can you now list some parts of San-Miguel that you might be familiar with that are safer than others and within those parts, street names or intersections, etc.? Do you see what I'm trying to say here? When someone who lives there, vacations there etc., can say 'Etobicoke at Royal York Road and Dundas in Toronto' is an extremely safe area, very little crime, high end real estate' or something like that. That's what I'm trying to get out there. Then the negative turns to a positive because 'Toronto' just got broken down into it's suburbs.

I did not know about the contact group and that's wonderful news for someone like me who had that concern. So in the new area that talks about 'Crime In Mexico....... but with the pros of the places that don't have as much, Google will pick up the 'Crime In Mexico' for people searching and then people can begin to read the good!

I have been reading the Atencion but I (and others I am sure) would also like to read about where there isn't as much of this crime happening. There has to be places that you all know of!

You know, it doesn't even have to be places you would personally reside at yourself but perhaps a relative does or a former business associate that you still keep in touch with. 

There are many expats that like the coastal seen in the many new developments of these condo-hotels and the like. Maybe you or I don't want that particular lifestyle but many might and to hear from residents that it is safe would be a good thing, don't you think?


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## johnmex

I have been in Mexico for 20 years and have not yet needed police "assistance" (for what it may be worth). And I live in big, bad Guadalajara, not the bucolic burg of San Miguel.


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## TundraGreen

johnmex said:


> I have been in Mexico for 20 years and have not yet needed police "assistance" (for what it may be worth). And I live in big, bad Guadalajara, not the bucolic burg of San Miguel.


I did once, needed police assistance that is. We were traveling and in a very small town near the Sinaloa/Chihuahua/Durango border. We were trying to walk up a peak in Chihuahua and asked the police for directions. They gave us a guide who led us to the nearest access point.


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## AlanMexicali

*Police*



TundraGreen said:


> I did once, needed police assistance that is. We were traveling and in a very small town near the Sinaloa/Chihuahua/Durango border. We were trying to walk up a peak in Chihuahua and asked the police for directions. They gave us a guide who led us to the nearest access point.


A Mexicali policeman, who was directing traffic, saw a women slowly back up into my hood, she had a tire bolted to the back of her SUV, in a line to get into the CFE parking lot and had her go with us to a nearby auto body shop and pay for my hood to be straighten out before he gave back her driver's license. He didn't give her a citation or ask for "mordita" as I could hear what he was saying the whole time.


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## conklinwh

NMS if you read the Atencion, you will see that in almost all cases on a colonia basis the statistics are 0 or 1/week.

There are lots of options that I would consider very safe and more a question of what you want. 
Some specifics:
-Centro, Atascadero & Balcones are probably the most established and pretty safe with normal precautions.
-As San Miguel has grown, I would add Ojo de Agua, Gaudiana & Allende to this list.
-More up and coming are Guadalupe & San Antonia.

I'm sure that you could have an isolated problem in any of these places but I have friends that have lived in each for multiple years with no issues. Again, more about what works for you. Best way of course is to spend time and look around. Go to the jardin or biblioteca and talk with people that live there.


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## FHBOY

*Aid Langauge*

While I can share NMS' apprehension about being able to communicate to a police officer, I feel that it brings up a question. An expat moves not for a vacation, but to begin a life. While the issue of langauge is an initial concern it seems to me that part of adopting a new country is adopting it's language so you can live, and not expect the country to adopt to you. [In the USA that is a big, big discussion/conflict where we say if you live here, learn English, why isn't turn about fair play - if you want to live in Mexico, learn Spanish - it is the language of the country.]

I expect that my high school Spanish will suffice for a couple of months, especially where we are moving, but to do any travelling, living and learning, we will need to learn the language, one of our first year goals. We may not be fluent, but we do not want to appear not to be making an effort.

Our goal is not for everyone, nor should it be, but the point is to feel more a part of your new home, to really enjoy your new home, the positive and the need to communicate in an emergency one needs to learn the language.

In a year or two, NMS' apprehension should be gone, she will, by mere immersion, know what to say and how to say it...you see, that is the difference between being a tourist/vacationer and an expatriate choosing a new life: TIME TO LEARN AND EXPERIENCE. Oh, a good dose of patience can't hurt.


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## AlanMexicali

*Spanish*



FHBOY said:


> While I can share NMS' apprehension about being able to communicate to a police officer, I feel that it brings up a question. An expat moves not for a vacation, but to begin a life. While the issue of langauge is an initial concern it seems to me that part of adopting a new country is adopting it's language so you can live, and not expect the country to adopt to you. [In the USA that is a big, big discussion/conflict where we say if you live here, learn English, why isn't turn about fair play - if you want to live in Mexico, learn Spanish - it is the language of the country.]
> 
> I expect that my high school Spanish will suffice for a couple of months, especially where we are moving, but to do any travelling, living and learning, we will need to learn the language, one of our first year goals. We may not be fluent, but we do not want to appear not to be making an effort.
> 
> Our goal is not for everyone, nor should it be, but the point is to feel more a part of your new home, to really enjoy your new home, the positive and the need to communicate in an emergency one needs to learn the language.
> 
> In a year or two, NMS' apprehension should be gone, she will, by mere immersion, know what to say and how to say it...you see, that is the difference between being a tourist/vacationer and an expatriate choosing a new life: TIME TO LEARN AND EXPERIENCE. Oh, a good dose of patience can't hurt.


My friend just gave me a book he found used: "501 Spanish Verbs, 5th Edition" and the little I have read is very easy to follow and might help others also. Some of the many Spanish Language learning books I have are hard to follow, I have found out latter. There are better ones available.

The police in Mexico I have encountered, many times now, are not in tourist areas and do not speak English, except one at a sobriety check point and I got in his lane a few times.


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## Isla Verde

FHBOY said:


> . . . if you want to live in Mexico, learn Spanish - it is the language of the country.]
> 
> I expect that my high school Spanish will suffice for a couple of months, especially where we are moving, but to do any travelling, living and learning, we will need to learn the language, one of our first year goals. We may not be fluent, but we do not want to appear not to be making an effort.
> 
> Our goal is not for everyone, nor should it be, but the point is to feel more a part of your new home, to really enjoy your new home, the positive and the need to communicate in an emergency one needs to learn the language.


I disagree. I think your goal should be the goal of anyone who decides to make Mexico their new home! I can't imagine living here without being able to interact with my neighbors and friends in their language, not in my own.


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## RVGRINGO

'No More Snow' has convinced me that 'No More Snow' should definitely not consider moving to Mexico; or anywhere else. The 'fear factor' is just too high and the need for constant 'hand holding' is very obvious.
So, 'No More Snow', you have probably found your niche and your comfort zone right where you are and none of us will try to convince you of the benefits of our lifestyle. We're happy; you're happy, and that's all that really matters.
May the force (9.8m/s²) be with you.


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## Grizzy

Any area is safe until it is not. I moved into a nice fracc just west of Ajijic, Jalisco over a year ago and in Dec/Jan/Feb it became a hotbed of break ins and burglaries. The neighbors, a mixture of expats and Mexicans talked together and we formed a loose neighborhood watch, exchanged phone numbers and got to know each others vehicles. 

A few weeks ago the casita on my property was broken into and cleaned out of all valuables. I had practised what to say if I had to call the police and had it written out phonetically by the phone in case my limited spanish failed me in a crisis. The police were here within 2 minutes, a second english speaking patrol car was here in less than ten and they were very helpful. 

I feel safer here than in the US for many reasons and chose to live here knowing the risks, and having spent a lot of time travelling around the country.

I think it is ludicrous to think that because people in the US are too busy working and making money to live they don't have time to learn about other countries. They are not taught much in school about anything outside their borders and believe they are the universe. So be it. I would rather live here with folks who explore the world and understand realities than those who are timid and unaware.


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## Detailman

No More Snow describes areas of Toronto based on a lifetime of living there. I could do the same for the Greater Vancouver area. I know areas that are safe in the daytime but not at night. I know the neighbourhoods, streets, intersections, etc. that are dangerous and should be avoided. I know the neighbourhoods that are relatively safe.

All that information is based on a lifetime of living here. Reading thousands of newspaper articles. Watching the TV news for decade after decade. Speaking to and listening to the experiences of thousands of friends, acquaintances, workers, business associates, etc. over those decades.

You cannot expect to garner that type of information quickly. You certainly will not acquire it by following a forum of any kind, no matter how good the forum is. Mexico is a big place. All you will get is generalizations which can be very helpful. But you need to make the move to learn firsthand what will satisfy you. And that varies for every individual. A nervous person may be very hard to satisfy when it comes to their comfort zone. A person who has travelled extensively and lived in other parts of the world may find that they are satisfied very quickly by much less because of their experience and background.

That is why not all expats end up staying. Their comfort zone is NOB. Language, customs, areas they know, all provide that comfort zone. They can travel to many places but it their USA. It is their Canada. Mexico is foreign.

For these reasons I do not think that No More Snow will ever get the information she is looking for. It is too detailed.

You get that information by making the leap and experiencing what makes you comfortable or not. Yes, the homework and research is good but it is only one step and simply provides a starting point for the beginning of the real experience.

That is why the constant advice to rent and not buy for the first year or more. That way if you can not find your comfort zone you are free to head back to an area that provides it with no real loss. You have simply added another experience to your life and found one more thing that didn't work for YOU.


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## FHBOY

*Isla/RVCurmudgeon*



Isla Verde said:


> I disagree. I think your goal should be the goal of anyone who decides to make Mexico their new home! I can't imagine living here without being able to interact with my neighbors and friends in their language, not in my own.


I presented that argument as an alternative only. I do not advocate it, I am a strong advocate for our way of doing things.

Oh, and after reading The Curmudgeon's response, I fully agree. NMS does look to be asking for comfortable guarantees, and in an adventure there are none. Perhaps being a snowbird in SMA would be a better choice, less stressful. It does not sound like the desire to live in México has overcome her fears: crime, acculturation hassles. 

To start an adventure in fear is no way to do it. 
You start an adventure with hope that sees you through it.


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## sparks55

*Dangerous places*

I have been catching up on all of the threads since I came back to TN. I spent 15 days in Mexico and planned to stay longer until my husband had a medical emergency and had to be medivaced home. We traveled by primera class bus from Nashville, TN to Oaxaca, MX. We were on the bus for 3 days and 3 nights. We stopped in every little town between, dodging potholes and going over speed bumps. Never once did I feel like we were ever in danger. The people on the bus were friendly. I have several names and emails to follow up on as a result. In Oaxaca I didn't see any police. If they were there they stayed hidden. In Tapachula the local police and the Federalis were there. They had check points all over, but they never bothered us. I felt safe in Tapacula.

I did take Spanish from Livemocha.com so I did practice while I was there. I used my phrasebook and my electronic dictionary to help. We also met many Mexicans that spoke English. They would hear us talking among ourselves and say hello to us - a chance to practice their english. I was shopping with Mita (friend and cook) and her two daughters at the Walmart market. I asked a sales rep where the Gaterade was., She showed me where they were. Over in the next aisle, a mexican heard my Engish/Spanish and came around in introduced himself. 

I really enjoyed my trip there. The mexican people are very friendly and loving. All of the fears/anxiety I had never materialized. I ate healthy food and hade no stress. I entend to go back when I get the money saved up again.


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## Merida Yucatan

Thanks FHBoy and pappabee for your eloquent explanations ! I don't know why what you say isn't obvious to many people north of the border - but it isn't. This costs Mexicans a lot of jobs - and doesn't encourage them to stay in Mexico.


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## sparks55

*Blinders and Narrow Mindedness*

:ranger: I have traveled all over the world in my career in the Navy,and I have lived in foreign countries. My mind is open and willing to accept that there is a much wider world out there then I can see from my chair in Springfield, TN. I see it everyday at my job at Walmart. I am convinced that many people in the US are complacent and in a rut they choose to stay in. They live within themselves and don't want to conceive of anything outside of that. They work, eat, sleep and complain that that is all there is and don't have the forsight to see beyond their condition. I am grateful that I am not like that and that I have raised my sons to be open minded, My youngest son was born in Exmouth Western Australia. I hope to send him on a trip there soon, so he can see where he was born.


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## FHBOY

Merida Yucatan said:


> Thanks FHBoy and pappabee for your eloquent explanations ! I don't know why what you say isn't obvious to many people north of the border - but it isn't. This costs Mexicans a lot of jobs - and doesn't encourage them to stay in Mexico.


MY: Thanks. I write so much - sorry folks - that sometimes I don't realize I can be brilliant. But then again, if you throw enought pitches in baseball, one of them is bound to be a strike.

I am afraid we are being tough of NMS, and I am sorry if I joined in, but I'd rather she had a great time for a shorter period than end up in a situation that made her life uncomfortable.

When I first saw houses with walls in Ajijic, I admit I was taken aback. As an NOBer, who lives behind walls? But that is acculturation thing, if I am going to live in Lakeside, then my first change is to realize that NOB Normal is not Lakeside (Mexico) normal, and if I can't get behind (no pun intended) it, then I shouldn't go. I've seen pictures of what is behind those walls, people have created their own beautiful worlds...and now I know that this is what I want...so I can invite others in to share.

My friends and relatives will never understand the walls or the gates or even the barbed wire, and that's OK, I do. Maybe their "walls" are more intangible, but every one has them.

I'd better stop...I'm waxing philospohic - you people have better things to do

Paz y tranquilidad!

:focus:


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## Isla Verde

FHBOY said:


> When I first saw houses with walls in Ajijic, I admit I was taken aback. As an NOBer, who lives behind walls? But that is acculturation thing, if I am going to live in Lakeside, then my first change is to realize that NOB Normal is not Lakeside (Mexico) normal, and if I can't get behind (no pun intended) it, then I shouldn't go. I've seen pictures of what is behind those walls, people have created their own beautiful worlds...and now I know that this is what I want...so I can invite others in to share.
> 
> My friends and relatives will never understand the walls or the gates or even the barbed wire, and that's OK, I do. Maybe their "walls" are more intangible, but every one has them.
> 
> I'd better stop...I'm waxing philospohic - you people have better things to do
> 
> Paz y tranquilidad!
> 
> :focus:


The first time I came to Mexico, this was Mexico City in 1966, I loved the idea of living in a house surrounded by high walls. It appealed to my need to hide away from the world when I was at home. What also appealed to me was the contrast between a somewhat cloistered family life and the way people gathered in public spaces like plazas to enjoy the company of their neighbors in a sort of public living room!


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## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> The first time I came to Mexico, this was Mexico City in 1966, I loved the idea of living in a house surrounded by high walls. It appealed to my need to hide away from the world when I was at home. What also appealed to me was the contrast between a somewhat cloistered family life and the way people gathered in public spaces like plazas to enjoy the company of their neighbors in a sort of public living room!


Houses that I lived in in the US were surrounded by yards. The house that I live in in Guadalajara surrounds its yard. It is not surrounded by walls. Rather the house forms the perimeter of the property, and the "yard" is created by the open patios within the interior of the house. I love this style, because it enhances my connection to the outdoors. The front door opens into the main patio. You cross that to get to the living areas. To go from the dining room to the kitchen, you cross another patio. And yet a third patio from the living room or kitchen to the bedroom. The distinction between indoors and outdoors is blurred. This has an obvious disadvantage when we are in the middle of a torrential downpour in August or on a chilly morning in January. But otherwise, it is wonderful. When I go to bed every night, I cross under open skies. I am always aware of the phase of the moon because I can see it going from kitchen to dining room or bedroom. This is just one more of the many things that make living in Mexico attractive to me.


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## terrybahena

TundraGreen said:


> Houses that I lived in in the US were surrounded by yards. The house that I live in in Guadalajara surrounds its yard. It is not surrounded by walls. Rather the house forms the perimeter of the property, and the "yard" is created by the open patios within the interior of the house. I love this style, because it enhances my connection to the outdoors. The front door opens into the main patio. You cross that to get to the living areas. To go from the dining room to the kitchen, you cross another patio. And yet a third patio from the living room or kitchen to the bedroom. The distinction between indoors and outdoors is blurred. This has an obvious disadvantage when we are in the middle of a torrential downpour in August or on a chilly morning in January. But otherwise, it is wonderful. When I go to bed every night, I cross under open skies. I am always aware of the phase of the moon because I can see it going from kitchen to dining room or bedroom. This is just one more of the many things that make living in Mexico attractive to me.


I Love this open setting! At my house you also cross a patio to get to the kitchen, a bathroom and a shower. We have a second story for which you use an outside tiled staircase-very cool-. We don't have a wall, more of a fence "see-able" about 4 feet up, and it's only to keep the free roaming donkeys out of our yard ha ha!


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## RVGRINGO

Those are good descriptions of a typical Mexican abode. Ours is similar, with three interior patios, a large back yard and three garages on two streets. We live somewhere in the middle of all that and have a true 'oasis' in the very center of town. It is quite normal, very private, light and airy, and removed from the passing street traffic. Yet, we are within easy reach of shopping, parks, pools, the lake, restaurants, etc.; even on foot.


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## JohnSoCal

FHBOY said:


> While I can share NMS' apprehension about being able to communicate to a police officer, I feel that it brings up a question. An expat moves not for a vacation, but to begin a life. While the issue of langauge is an initial concern it seems to me that part of adopting a new country is adopting it's language so you can live, and not expect the country to adopt to you. [In the USA that is a big, big discussion/conflict where we say if you live here, learn English, why isn't turn about fair play - if you want to live in Mexico, learn Spanish - it is the language of the country.]
> 
> I expect that my high school Spanish will suffice for a couple of months, especially where we are moving, but to do any travelling, living and learning, we will need to learn the language, one of our first year goals. We may not be fluent, but we do not want to appear not to be making an effort.
> 
> Our goal is not for everyone, nor should it be, but the point is to feel more a part of your new home, to really enjoy your new home, the positive and the need to communicate in an emergency one needs to learn the language.
> 
> In a year or two, NMS' apprehension should be gone, she will, by mere immersion, know what to say and how to say it...you see, that is the difference between being a tourist/vacationer and an expatriate choosing a new life: TIME TO LEARN AND EXPERIENCE. Oh, a good dose of patience can't hurt.


I agree with you 100%. My wife is Mexican. We were married in Mexico and lived there for 4 years after we married. I am fluent in Spanish. One of the joys of Mexico is just conversing with the people. I can't see how you can really be comfortable and enjoy Mexico if you can't effectively communicate with the people.


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## Isla Verde

JohnSoCal said:


> I agree with you 100%. My wife is Mexican. We were married in Mexico and lived there for 4 years after we married. I am fluent in Spanish. One of the joys of Mexico is just conversing with the people. I can't see how you can really be comfortable and enjoy Mexico if you can't effectively communicate with the people.


And I agree with you, JohnSoCal. But there are those who move to Mexico not to interact with the people but to enjoy the great weather and lower cost of living.


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## sparks55

*Country People*

This was my first trip to Mexico. My only regret is that we had to come back earlier than planned. The country homes of my friends in Tapachula were basic cement structures with a metal roof. One of the houses I was in had a living room without an outside wall. It was open to the weather on one side. There were curtains separating the rooms The design was all about airflow. No one had air conditioning, nor did they need it. 

They had chickens and dogs under their feet. These are my kind of people. i hope to go back soon and complete to trip that was interrupted by my husbands medical emergency.


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