# Puerto Vallarta or other areas?



## kathleentitus

I am researching the Puerto Vallarta-Guadalajara-Lake Chapala area (as well as Merida) for relocation and retirement in several years. So far, the former has special appeal because it seems to offer the arty sophistication of Puerto Vallarta, the quality medical care of Guadalajara, and the solid American expat community of Lake Chapala.

As an artist, I'd tend to want to be near Puerto Vallarta, especially as I hope to offer art workshops to American tourists and expats. I understand it's become very expensive, though. Would I be dreaming to hope for a two bedroom one bath home around $85,000? Some renovation, for example, of the kitchen and bathroom would be fine. 

I'm also told that it's "oppressively humid" - that it would be better inland in terms of my allergies to mold.

(Thanks very much, Rick (chicois8), for your response about Merida. I can't email you directly because I have to make 5 postings first....) 

Any comments will be greatly appreciated!
Kathy (also known as Catalina)


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## RVGRINGO

The largest concentration of expat residents will be found at Lake Chapala. You are absolutely right about the heat and humidity anywhere on the coasts for the summer half of the year, and you may find the huge crowds of cruise ship passengers less than desirable in the winter. You can probably find something in that price range, but many more choices will start at twice that price; and upward. There are no easy answers to any of these questions and you really should visit and explore.


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## kathleentitus

*Reply to RVGringo*

Hola,
Thanks very much for your reply. I know how important it is to visit & explore, but I'm trying to get a good broad picture first. Your info is very important. I had incorrectly assumed the heat & humidity to be for only a few months and hadn't known about crowds from cruise ships. 

Because I'm an artist, I've just had the San Panchos community in Nayarit (Nuevo Vallarta) recommended to me. I'm excited because I've been advised it has tons of activities and a nice blend of Canadians and Europeans as well. I'm hoping it's less expensive than Puerto Vallarta. If you have any advice on this lead, I'll be very grateful!
Thanks again,
Catalina








RVGRINGO said:


> The largest concentration of expat residents will be found at Lake Chapala. You are absolutely right about the heat and humidity anywhere on the coasts for the summer half of the year, and you may find the huge crowds of cruise ship passengers less than desirable in the winter. You can probably find something in that price range, but many more choices will start at twice that price; and upward. There are no easy answers to any of these questions and you really should visit and explore.


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## RVGRINGO

Oh boy! Here it goes: We live in Mexico and this is our tenth year, so we may be a bit biased. However, we have been to PV and, frankly, we don't like it! It is a tourist trap for the tourist who has no knowledge of Mexico and will only 'follow the crowd'. It is very expensive, as a result. The cruise ship visitors have little time to do much more than window shop and buy a souvenir or two. As for San Francisco, which you call 'San Pancho', I suppose that some might like it for a short time, but it would soon become boring. We pulled into the village (not the upscale new development for the very rich) and noticed a convenient restaurant, as it was lunch time. I think it was called 'Lucy's', or something like that; a hint that it was a ****** trap. It was! Complete with USA prices. We finished our drink and went across the street to a very nice Mexican place and had a lunch, at reasonable prices, which was excellent.
So, you have a lot of homework to do, as well as a lot of self evaluation. If you are looking for life on a budget, and in a 'livable' climate, you may want to avoid the coasts. Now, April, is the time that a lot of those places start to look like ghost towns until it cools down again in the fall; while here, in the central highlands, on the shores of Lake Chapala, half an hour from the Guadalajara airport, we're in the beginning of our warm season too, but it is only 77F at the moment. By the end of next month, we will have some temperatures in the 90s, but the humidity will be very low and it will be quite comfortable in the shade; no need for AC and the houses don't have it.
You should probably make two visits; one in the middle of each season to see for yourself. Never take the advice of someone who only visits coastal resort destinations, especially if they only visit in the winter. No matter where you settle in Mexico, you will find other artistic communities and plenty of inspiration.


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## chicois8

Hola, I have a home in Guayabitos and have suffered the summer heat and humidity before, it gets so hot I had to put a move able cover over my pool because the water was getting to hot to jump in and cool off in....I am 40 miles north of PV so you never see cruise ship tourists up this way and you can find homes in the $85K price range unlike PV....There is a small art community here and have guest teachers come from SMA a couple times a year(winter) ... Tonala is a wonderful art town just south of Guadalajara, I am considering buying another home there, where summer temps are much better and without humidity at about 5000 feet elevation... Google "Tonala,Jalisco" see for yourself....good luck-suerte


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## conklinwh

One thing that I expect you are finding is that if you ask 10 expats where they would live, you would get at least 11 answers. We are not beach people so never a consideration but we actually found PV surprisingly nice. We stayed in the southern end of old town so not much cruise folk but I was impressed with the Malacon.
I'm probably in the great minority but I've never found the Guadalajara area that appealing other that buying trips. It's just too big and crowded.
My wife is a painter and I'm a history buff so we picked the San Miguel area as a great combination. It was a very easy way to move into Mexico. Although we think San Miguel a great place, we found it crowded(now you can see why we don't appreciate Guadalajara-BTW, I grew up in NYC and lived in Chicago, SF, LA, Beijing & Singapore so maybe enough large cities). We ended up moving to "our dream spot" in a town of 3,000 with some 50 full/part time expats. My wife converted a caliche/adobe ruin into a studio and I have some 300+ mines to explore and we are less than an hour from San Miguel & Queretaro. So to each their own!
Net, you need spend time and find whatt works for you.


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## kathleentitus

*Arty with Old World Mexican Charm*

Thanks so much for your emails. It seems I think like you and your wife. I visited Guadalajara briefly, found it very congested, and was eager to get to the historic authentic Mexican charm and laid back natural beauty of SMA. 

I had to come to terms with my parents' desire to sell our "casita" in SMA and decided that SMA was getting too crowded and expensive, and there weren't enough ways of getting to know other expats. I was also "out of the loop" because I was not retirement age yet. I haven't thought of Pozos because I've been concerned that I might feel isolated again - with less expats than SMA. I have great respect for all the care and dedication to history that is involved in the renovations going on in Pozos by expats...I'm intrigued that you and your wife converted the adobe ruin to a studio! You have also lived in some very interesting cities.

So, that's the "long and short" of why I find myself looking at the Lake Chapala area - which I understand is reasonably historic, arty, and with lots of ways of meeting expats. I love diversity and like to have Mexican friends as well, so I probably wouldn't want to live in a gated community. I've read the hospitals in Guadalajara are excellent, though I understand the hospital in Queretero is also very good. Sounds like I should write the coast off and think "inland" because of my allergies to mold. 

I really appreciate your thoughts! Thanks to you and a few others, I'm narrowing things down before I come to visit.
Catalina




conklinwh said:


> One thing that I expect you're finding is that if you ask 10 expats where they would live, you would get at least 11 answers. We are not beach people so never a consideration but we actually found PV surprisingly nice. We stayed in the southern end of old town so not much cruise folk but I was impressed with the Malacon.
> I'm probably in the great minority but I've never found the Guadalajara area that appealing other that buying trips. It's just too big and crowded.
> My wife is a painter and I'm a history buff so we picked the San Miguel area as a great combination. It was a very easy way to move into Mexico. Although we think San Miguel a great place, we found it crowded(now you can see why we don't appreciate Guadalajara-BTW, I grew up in NYC and lived in Chicago, SF, LA, Beijing & Singapore so maybe enough large cities). We ended up moving to "our dream spot" in a town of 3,000 with some 50 full/part time expats. My wife converted a caliche/adobe ruin into a studio and I have some 300+ mines to explore and we are less than an hour from San Miguel & Queretaro. So to each their own!
> Net, you need spend time and find whatt works for you.


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## conklinwh

Sounds like a plan! We do have one couple that moved here from Ajijic for similar reasons that we moved here from San Miguel-too many expats. One thing almost twenty years of living abroad has taught me is that you can get too much of a good thing and that includes expats. Interesting thing is that my wife keeps saying how can we be so busy in a "ghost town" as it sometimes interferes with her painting time and that isn't good.


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## sparks

The problem with anything within an hour of Vallarta .... is that it's within an hour of Vallarta and too easy to get to. I know 2 people that moved from San Pancho to Barra de Navidad because that whole area north of PV is growing too fast and highway 200 in that area is a nightmare.

If you want more full time ex-pats that will have time for art classes/seminars I think the Chapala area would fit much better, still close to the beach and probably more afforable than SMA


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## kathleentitus

*Chapala and Tonala*

Thanks for your reply. I've gotten good responses and have pretty much decided against the Vallarta area - from all I've read recently. Thanks also for the tip that Lake Chapala should be good for art classes/seminars, as that's important. Would you think it would be bettter to sell art in the Vallarta area? 

A Mexican friend of mine told me to check into Tonala and described it as a beautiful, arty town southeast of Guadalajara. I then found info online, which seems to confirm that. Do you know Tonala and like it? 

How long have you been an expat in Mexico? From the Sparks website it looks like you have a tourism business. If so, you must really know Mexico! Where do you live?
Catalina 



sparks said:


> The problem with anything within an hour of Vallarta .... is that it's within an hour of Vallarta and too easy to get to. I know 2 people that moved from San Pancho to Barra de Navidad because that whole area north of PV is growing too fast and highway 200 in that area is a nightmare.
> 
> If you want more full time ex-pats that will have time for art classes/seminars I think the Chapala area would fit much better, still close to the beach and probably more afforable than SMA


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## kathleentitus

*Chapala & Tonala*

Hola Rick,
Thanks for your reply. I'm thinking more in terms of the Lake Chapala area. Interesting that you should mention Tonala, as a Mexican friend of mine just recommended it to me. I found very intriguing info online, too....that it not only a beautiful town but also has a street where many of the countries' best artists sell. I know there is a problem with air pollution in Guadalajara - but maybe not in Tonala? 

I'm also intrigued because it would be close to Lake Chapala with other expats but might offer more of a real life feel. I speak Spanish, like to have Mexican friends, and dance the Salsa...There might be a better chance at more lucrative real estate in Tonala, also. 

I'm looking forward to your thoughts,
Catalina



chicois8 said:


> Hola, I have a home in Guayabitos and have suffered the summer heat and humidity before, it gets so hot I had to put a move able cover over my pool because the water was getting to hot to jump in and cool off in....I am 40 miles north of PV so you never see cruise ship tourists up this way and you can find homes in the $85K price range unlike PV....There is a small art community here and have guest teachers come from SMA a couple times a year(winter) ... Tonala is a wonderful art town just south of Guadalajara, I am considering buying another home there, where summer temps are much better and without humidity at about 5000 feet elevation... Google "Tonala,Jalisco" see for yourself....good luck-suerte


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## RVGRINGO

Tonala is very commercial, with street-filling 'tianguis' every Thursday and Sunday, and is less than an hour away from Chapala. I would think that, for living, you would prefer life at Lake Chapala (either in Chapala or Ajijic) and possibly showing your wares in galleries there, or in Guadalajara occasionally. Tonala is pretty much 'home-grown' talent, and there is certainly a lot of it. It does draw buyers from around the world. Are you fluent in Spanish and English, at the least, for that very traditional market? Also, there are international shippers there, as well as porters on the street to carry goods, etc. There are visas for visiting artists, but I think you might have to have a higher level of permission to do 'lucrative work'.


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## chicois8

*Tonala*

Hola Kathleen , This was from my earlier post:





chicois8 said:


> Tonala is a wonderful art town just south of Guadalajara, I am considering buying another home there, where summer temps are much better and without humidity at about 5000 feet elevation... Google "Tonala,Jalisco" see for yourself....good luck-suerte


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## sparks

Tlaquepaque (the real artsy section) and Tonala are no longer little towns on the outskirts of Guad ... they are completely incorporated. 

I've been in Mexico 5 years and my 'tourism business' is just a few Google ads. I live in Jocotepec on the west end of Lake Chapala after 4 years on the coast.

Have a friend in Chapala that bought a large warehouse a few years ago that he intends to be an art studio. He's a life long artist and Gallery owner from Seattle

Here's an older Blog of his
SummerArtshow 2009


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## joelpb

*san carlos mexico*

Have you looked at san carlos mexico? It is on the coast and only 5 hours from AZ. Mostly Americans and canadians. About 5,000 to 7,000


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## kathleentitus

*San Carlos*

No, I haven't heard of San Carlos, and I'm interested in learning about Mexico and retirement ideas. Being only five hours to the States isn't an issue for me. I also wouldn't want to live in a Mexican city that is mostly Americans. So far, I'm getting the impression that anywhere on the coast might be oppressively hot and humid for the long summer season in Mexico. Is San Carlos in a higher elevation than Puerto Vallarta?

How else would you describe San Carlos? Is that where you live or are thinking of living?



joelpb said:


> Have you looked at san carlos mexico? It is on the coast and only 5 hours from AZ. Mostly Americans and canadians. About 5,000 to 7,000


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## bournemouth

kathleentitus said:


> No, I haven't heard of San Carlos, and I'm interested in learning about Mexico and retirement ideas. Being only five hours to the States isn't an issue for me. I also wouldn't want to live in a Mexican city that is mostly Americans. So far, I'm getting the impression that anywhere on the coast might be oppressively hot and humid for the long summer season in Mexico. Is San Carlos in a higher elevation than Puerto Vallarta?
> 
> How else would you describe San Carlos? Is that where you live or are thinking of living?


Sea level is sea level - no difference between San Carlos and Puerto Vallarta. Yes, the coast is hot and humid during the summer just about everywhere except the Pacific side of Baja California.


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## kathleentitus

I am more and more convinced Lake Chapala or Ajijic are most appropriate for me. I still plan to research Tonala and to spend some time there when I visit the area. 

No, I'm not fluent in Spanish. I'm currently high-intermediate level and can carry on a conversation. I'm hoping that Lake Chapala and Ajijic still retain some old world Mexican charm and that Americans and Mexicans live together in mixed neighborhoods - without the need for gated communities. I'm an English as a Second Language teacher in college and enjoy having Hispanic friends. I hope for a simple lifestyle. 

I am wondering how easy it is to have a small, 1-2 person subsistence farm in the Lake Chapala area? I'm hoping to have an organic garden and my own free-range chickens. 

I'm also interested because I understand there are a lot of activities, especially volunteer work. Does the area have a website that includes all this in more detail?





RVGRINGO said:


> Tonala is very commercial, with street-filling 'tianguis' every Thursday and Sunday, and is less than an hour away from Chapala. I would think that, for living, you would prefer life at Lake Chapala (either in Chapala or Ajijic) and possibly showing your wares in galleries there, or in Guadalajara occasionally. Tonala is pretty much 'home-grown' talent, and there is certainly a lot of it. It does draw buyers from around the world. Are you fluent in Spanish and English, at the least, for that very traditional market? Also, there are international shippers there, as well as porters on the street to carry goods, etc. There are visas for visiting artists, but I think you might have to have a higher level of permission to do 'lucrative work'.


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## kathleentitus

I checked out Billy King's website, and it's intriguing! I certainly plan to visit Tlaquepaque and Tonala when I visit the area. I'm interested in how you came to live in Jocotepec. How is it different from Lake Chapala and Ajijic?



sparks said:


> Tlaquepaque (the real artsy section) and Tonala are no longer little towns on the outskirts of Guad ... they are completely incorporated.
> 
> I've been in Mexico 5 years and my 'tourism business' is just a few Google ads. I live in Jocotepec on the west end of Lake Chapala after 4 years on the coast.
> 
> Have a friend in Chapala that bought a large warehouse a few years ago that he intends to be an art studio. He's a life long artist and Gallery owner from Seattle
> 
> Here's an older Blog of his
> SummerArtshow 2009


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## kathleentitus

Hola Rick,
I'm interested in knowing more about why you are thinking in terms of living in Tonala. Is it because it's both urban and arty? If it's part of Guadalajara now, there might be too much air pollution for me. How would you compare Tonala and the Lake Chapala area? 



chicois8 said:


> Hola Kathleen , This was from my earlier post:


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## RVGRINGO

There is a mountain range between Guadalajara and Lake Chapala, so the pollution stays in the valley where the metropolitan zone is located. Chapala, Ajijic and Jocotepec are free of industrial pollution. Chapala is the political center, which includes Ajijic and other villages. Jocotepec is a separate 'municipalidad' to the west of the 'Municipalidad de Chapala.' If you use some online maps or a mexican atlas, such as 'Guia Roji' maps (available for purchase online), you will be able to orient yourself geographically.
Living in 'the country' is neither practical or popular for many reasons. Besides, land is very expensive. That said, we do have a home on 1/3 acre in the center of Chapala with plenty of room for chickens. Folks with a lot less green area even keep horses, etc.


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## sparks

kathleentitus said:


> I checked out Billy King's website, and it's intriguing! I certainly plan to visit Tlaquepaque and Tonala when I visit the area. I'm interested in how you came to live in Jocotepec. How is it different from Lake Chapala and Ajijic?


All three are on Lake Chapala .... so I assume you mean the town of Chapala.

I drove up from the beach planning to look at Joco and Chapala. Ajijic is too ******-fied and doesn't feel as open. To the west of Joco and to the east of Chapala there is little but country and farmland.

So my second day in town staying with friends I'm sitting in the Plaza coffee shop and a friend runs up and tells me the house next door is for rent. We look at it, gorgeous place, yard for cats, secure parking for 3 cars, 4bdrm, 3bath and inexpensive. My landlady also happens to work with a Mexican friend here.

So I guess the reason I'm in Joco rather than Chapala is this house. I was very lucky to have connections


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## chicois8

Hola Kathleen, I never see very much air pollution around Tonala,maybe because of wind directions, hills or location of large polluters...and although Guadalajara has engulfed towns like Tonala, Tlaquepaque and Zapopan they still have there small town feel...hope that helps


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## kathleentitus

*Small Town Feel*

Hola Rick,
Thanks, that helps a lot....A close proximity to the big city - but a small, artsy town feel - has a lot of appeal. Especially, if it still lacks the air pollution problem. I'll enjoy checking out not only Tonala, but also Tlaquepaque and Zapopan on Google. Vamos a ver...
Catalina



chicois8 said:


> Hola Kathleen, I never see very much air pollution around Tonala,maybe because of wind directions, hills or location of large polluters...and although Guadalajara has engulfed towns like Tonala, Tlaquepaque and Zapopan they still have there small town feel...hope that helps


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## kathleentitus

It's great if you can be spontaneous like that, and Mexican friends can be important connections in a decision like that...and it sounds like it's worked out real well for you...



sparks said:


> All three are on Lake Chapala .... so I assume you mean the town of Chapala.
> 
> I drove up from the beach planning to look at Joco and Chapala. Ajijic is too ******-fied and doesn't feel as open. To the west of Joco and to the east of Chapala there is little but country and farmland.
> 
> So my second day in town staying with friends I'm sitting in the Plaza coffee shop and a friend runs up and tells me the house next door is for rent. We look at it, gorgeous place, yard for cats, secure parking for 3 cars, 4bdrm, 3bath and inexpensive. My landlady also happens to work with a Mexican friend here.
> 
> So I guess the reason I'm in Joco rather than Chapala is this house. I was very lucky to have connections


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## kathleentitus

Thanks for the important point about the geography and the fact that pollution is always worse in an urban valley.

I'm so pleased that chickens are actually allowed within the town of Chapala. I would like to have an organic fruit and vegetable garden and some chickens, yet also be in a town (or nearby). It sounds like it might work out just fine...
Thanks. 



RVGRINGO said:


> There is a mountain range between Guadalajara and
> Lake Chapala, so the pollution stays in the valley where the metropolitan zone is located. Chapala, Ajijic and Jocotepec are free of industrial pollution. Chapala is the political center, which includes Ajijic and other villages. Jocotepec is a separate 'municipalidad' to the west of the 'Municipalidad de Chapala.' If you use some online maps or a mexican atlas, such as 'Guia Roji' maps (available for purchase online), you will be able to orient yourself geographically.
> Living in 'the country' is neither practical or popular for many reasons. Besides, land is very expensive. That said, we do have a home on 1/3 acre in the center of Chapala with plenty of room for chickens. Folks with a lot less green area even keep horses, etc.


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## rlinders

Well, after reading the entire thread it sounds as though on average most of lean to the Lake Chalapa area, mainly due to the heat and humidity in the PV area. My wife and I have 2 areas in mind for retirement in less than 2 years and was hoping PVR would have better rating. We spent 14 days at my sons condo a couple of years ago between Bucerias and LaCruz in Dec. and had a great time. We live in Kansas City and the summers here can be very hot and humid, but I gather from reading the post that PVR in the summer in hotter than this?
I have a couple of concerns with Lake Chalapa which the first one is the lake its self. I have read about the dropping water levels, being polluted and the fishery has been declining.
Just trying to narrow down these 2 areas, and make a decision. Of course we will be down to visit first, but the leg work first certainly helps.

Bob & Kat


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## chicois8

rlinders said:


> Well, after reading the entire thread it sounds as though on average most of lean to the Lake Chalapa area, mainly due to the heat and humidity in the PV area. My wife and I have 2 areas in mind for retirement in less than 2 years and was hoping PVR would have better rating. We spent 14 days at my sons condo a couple of years ago between Bucerias and LaCruz in Dec. and had a great time. We live in Kansas City and the summers here can be very hot and humid, but I gather from reading the post that PVR in the summer in hotter than this?
> I have a couple of concerns with Lake Chalapa which the first one is the lake its self. I have read about the dropping water levels, being polluted and the fishery has been declining.
> Just trying to narrow down these 2 areas, and make a decision. Of course we will be down to visit first, but the leg work first certainly helps.
> 
> Bob & Kat



Why not start a new thread instead of adding to one that is almost 3 years old?


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## sparks

kathleentitus said:


> I checked out Billy King's website, and it's intriguing! I certainly plan to visit Tlaquepaque and Tonala when I visit the area. I'm interested in how you came to live in Jocotepec. How is it different from Lake Chapala and Ajijic?


Boy that is an old post. Billy King is back in Seattle and selling his place in Chapala. I'm back in Melaque almost 2 years, finished my house and just feel more comfortable here.

I chose Jocotepec to be away from the center of activity, a little more Mexican, easier route to the south-side and country side ... but still close to Guad. Problem I had with it was they were building hundreds of cheap weekend/summer get-a-ways close by and traffic and shopping would be a nightmare in a few years


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