# How often are people deported?



## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

I have several questions so I'll ask them separately so each thread doesn't get bogged down. I've looked for answers but am not finding them. Just for background, I'm an American jazz musician with an MA in music and my wife is an American (but Peruvian by birth) Spanish teacher with an MA in linguistics.

I hear a lot of "just go and work under the table, it will be fine." How often do people get deported in Spain? Assuming I'm a clean cut person that stays out of trouble, what are the odds? Any stories? What happens?

I hear some people say, "just go and hope for an amnesty" - what are the odds of that happening? As near as I can tell, I see there was an amnesty in 2005 and that's all I can find.


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

There has been no such amnesty as far as I am aware.

An EU citizen can not be deported from Spain for not meeting the 'residencia' criteria. However, if you break your US visa criteria, then this may be a completely different matter.


----------



## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

ksjazzguitar said:


> I have several questions so I'll ask them separately so each thread doesn't get bogged down. I've looked for answers but am not finding them. Just for background, I'm an American jazz musician with an MA in music and my wife is an American (but Peruvian by birth) Spanish teacher with an MA in linguistics.
> 
> I hear a lot of "just go and work under the table, it will be fine." How often do people get deported in Spain? Assuming I'm a clean cut person that stays out of trouble, what are the odds? Any stories? What happens?
> 
> I hear some people say, "just go and hope for an amnesty" - what are the odds of that happening? As near as I can tell, I see there was an amnesty in 2005 and that's all I can find.


I absolutely wouldn't count on an amnesty. In 2005 it was boom time in Spain and they needed all those extra workers so they made it easier for them to get on the books and pay taxes. The economic situation has totally changed now, and it won't be getting much better for years and years to come. Spain doesn't need any extra workers at all - in fact Spain is losing population because its young people are leaving the country to try and find work. In light of that Spain could never open its doors to illegal workers by giving them an amnesty. 

Why are even considering coming here to work illegally? Doing what? Are you aware of the economic crisis that Spain is in and what percentage of its people are unemployed? People are desperate and will work doing anything for 3 euros an hour. This is not the country to come to without a job lined up, especially if you're illegal!


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Last year there was a tax amnesty for those people who were here but not previously paying their taxes whereby, if they paid their arrears for the previous four years, they would not face further penalty.


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Not a very comfortable life tho - living in fear of getting caught, no work - even if you were legitimate, playing the guitar is not a well paying or sought after profession - but especially if you are having to stay hidden. Healthcare if you are taken ill????

Jo xxx


----------



## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

I see from your previous posts that you've been asking on this forum since 2010 about ways to get to Europe. The questions you ask can easily be answered by any consulate of Spain in the US. You have one right in the city that you live in, which I've posted for you previously: Consulate of Spain in San Francisco

A lot of your questions can be answered through that website - without even having to pick up the phone to call them or visit them. I've answered a lot of your questions, but you have to do your own work too!


----------



## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

Man, you look at every angle! Buy a 500grand € house and get permanent residency under the Golden Visa. If you stay illegally and get caught you may screw yourself for any future attempt. It would seem that you would have some definite answers since 2010 though. Unfortunately, the US government is trying to make it harder to live in another country while being a citizen of the US.


----------



## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

@kalohi

Thank you, that is an excellent point. I really should have thought of that but it makes sense to consider the state of the economy WHEN these things happen. Looking at the unemployment rate, it was at a low 2005/6 and hit a relative peak around 2013. It's been falling lately but will not hit 2005 levels any time soon. Thank you, that makes that quite clear.

Similarly, some of the information I have about the (relative) ease of American jazz musicians in Barcelona was from 2003. Clearly it would be a different situation now. It's worth some thought.

"Why are even considering coming here to work illegally? Doing what?"

Have you never had a dream? I'm a professional musician - I hear Barcelona has a thriving night life. I can also teach English (probably most of my income). I know it will be tough, but it's what we want. We'd rather struggle in Barcelona than be comfortable here.

@jojo

"Not a very comfortable life tho - living in fear of getting caught, no work"

Yes, I know. I've also heard some people saying that it's not that big a deal and not very enforced (a lot of this was in regards to people teaching English). I was just looking for some people's experiences.

@AllHeart

I'm sorry if my question bothered you. Yes, some questions can be answered on consulate web sites. I've done a lot of reading. Some of those answers are vague and/or incomplete and sometimes hearing about actual experiences can clarify things. These questions specifically were not on the consulate page.


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

ksjazzguitar said:


> Similarly, some of the information I have about the (relative) ease of American jazz musicians in Barcelona was from 2003. Clearly it would be a different situation now. It's worth some thought.
> 
> "Why are even considering coming here to work illegally? Doing what?"
> 
> ...


Most of the musicians in Spain now have to be autonomo and produce bills, invoices, receipts NIF numbers and their work has to go through the books. This usually involves agents. My husband is a semi professional musician and has a lot of muso friends who live in Spain (Nerja, not Barcelona) of varying degrees of talent. Most dont earn much money by playing and live on their royalties from days gone by. 

That said, my husband has just got a bit of a deal in Nerja next weekend (sadly, not life changing lol) - so we're flying over for a few days YAY!!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

@jojo

Yeah, that's the case with most musicians everywhere. Things are hard, especially for jazz and classical musicians. Every time a jazz musician talks about moving somewhere, everyone says, "don't bother, there's no work here." But that's true everywhere. Here in San Francisco, I make some money playing gigs and make most of my money teaching guitar, piano, and chess. If I ever get to BCN, I imagine it will be making a little money playing gigs but paying the bill teaching English.

I guess I got my hopes a bit from an old NYT article about how great BCN was for American jazz musicians. But as it turns out that was from 2003 so things have changed. Oh well.

But if any of those musicians are jazz musicians, I would love to talk to them. Please feel free to give them my email (my username at yahoo dot com.)


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

ksjazzguitar said:


> @jojo
> 
> Yeah, that's the case with most musicians everywhere. Things are hard, especially for jazz and classical musicians. Every time a jazz musician talks about moving somewhere, everyone says, "don't bother, there's no work here." But that's true everywhere. Here in San Francisco, I make some money playing gigs and make most of my money teaching guitar, piano, and chess. If I ever get to BCN, I imagine it will be making a little money playing gigs but paying the bill teaching English.
> 
> ...


and thats my point, on top of that, you'd be an illegal 

Jo xxx


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

ksjazzguitar said:


> If I ever get to BCN, I imagine it will be making a little money playing gigs but paying the bill teaching English.


It is unlikely that you will make much money teaching English. You will need an English-teaching qualification (TEFL, CELTA, etc.). To get into the state schools, you will have to go in open competition (oposiciones). Teaching privately doesn't pay well (in some cases as little as 5€ per hour). You may find that having an American accent will also block your progress. You will also have a heap of competition since a lot of people take the point of view that they will do xxx and if they need more money they will teach English. You might be able to get into an International school but you will meet a lot of competition.


----------



## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> ...You will need an English-teaching qualification (TEFL, CELTA, etc.).





> Teaching privately doesn't pay well (in some cases as little as 5€ per hour).


Perhaps. Most of the sources I find say that it pays better than in a school. Most of the ads I see on Craig's List and Loquo are more in the 10-25€ range. I guess it depends on where you are.



> You may find that having an American accent will also block your progress.


I've heard that in some cases an American accent is a plus. I'm sure it depends. 



> You might be able to get into an International school but you will meet a lot of competition.


Yup. I know. I'm not saying this is going to be easy. On my side, I do have a lot of teaching experience, and a Master's Degree. But it's not going to be easy, that's for sure.

Thank you for the information.


----------



## lorort (Dec 24, 2015)

I find it annoying that you seek advice while breaking the law in a foreign country. I think a lot of folks on this forum had the dream to come to Spain and did it legally. I want to be in Spain too, but would never consider going illegally. Look at the mess we have in the U.S. with people coming in illegally or overstaying there visas. I think when you do what you are wanting to do you are showing a huge disrespect for Spain and its people.


----------



## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

lorort said:


> I find it annoying that you seek advice while breaking the law in a foreign country. ...


I’m sorry that my post has offended people so much. I’m not saying this is what I want to do – I’m just gathering information. That’s how I operate – I gather as much information as I can. 

With regards to “breaking the law” - on one hand, I can completely sympathize. On the other, my personal experiences tell me that things are often not that simple. The idea that “the law is the law and there are no exceptions” is a very American idea and we have to be careful about superimposing it on other cultures.

I spent years working on cruise ships, interfacing with other cultures. In some ports, we openly paid bribes (in some countries that would surprise you.) I remember getting up early and seeing the bosons hand over cartons of cigarettes to the port authorities before they were allowed to begin docking. This was regular practice and it always had been. There were local laws that were often violated with full knowledge of the authorities. All cultures have a different relationship to “rule of law” and how literally they should be followed. Many have a more “flexible” understanding of the law.

And don’t think the US gets off the hook. When I lived in New Orleans, corruption, bribery, and extortion by government officials was fairly common. It’s just part of that culture. In all American cities, there are some laws that are not enforced and it’s just understood. Many states and cities have adopted a “flexible” understanding about the laws around weed – ignoring federal law and sometimes choosing not to enforce existing local laws. I could go on detailing laws that are regularly not followed to the letter and about which there is a “flexible” understanding. You mention immigration in the US – I think I could easily build a case that many laws are not enforced and there is a tacit understanding that some laws will be broken and people look the other way because they know that is “just how things are.” (I won’t bore you with another few paragraphs on that, but suffice it to say if they REALLY wanted to end illegal immigration, they'd start arresting company owners that hire them. They don't because they know they need them and they're good for the economy.)

It was with that understanding that I asked the question. Every culture has a different relationship with the law that changes and flexes and spans a continuum across different subjects. What is the Spanish government’s relationship with immigration law and its enforcement? I don't know. When I was in Spain last year, from some of the immigrants with whom I spoke (both legal and illegal) that it wasn’t a big deal. Specifically I've heard (largely online) that this is often the case with teaching English - the agencies (not academies) regularly hire people under the table because they're cheaper and it's too difficult to get Americans a work visa and everyone knows that that's just how it is. I’ve also heard contrasting opinions. I just was seeking out some other information.

I’m not saying I want to do this. This isn’t plan A, it isn’t even plan B. As I list in my mind the avenues we are pursuing it would be in last place, plan F. It may not even be something that we would even seriously consider. But I like to get the facts and the “nuances” before I make a decision. That is how I understand “brainstorming.”

I’m sorry if my post offended you. It was meant in the spirit of gaining understanding.


----------



## Tortuga Torta (Jan 23, 2016)

Elyles said:


> Unfortunately, the US government is trying to make it harder to live in another country while being a citizen of the US.


Can you elaborate? What are they trying to do differently now? Thanks.


----------



## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

Tortuga Torta said:


> Can you elaborate? What are they trying to do differently now? Thanks.


For example, we had to change our financial managers from someone we had used for over 20 years because of new regs on money transfer. All-in-all, not a tragedy but a huge inconvenience. Merril Lynch does not want to deal with expats here. We simply shifted to HSBC with all our IRA's, etc. With all the terrorists being supported from the US, I can clearly see that it is so necessity. But, come on, we are simply retired Americans. Our government could easily enact Medicare Portability so it could be used here but refuses to do so. In the long run, The third party reimbursement would be greater than any current insurance company here currently and a win-win.


----------



## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Tortuga Torta said:


> Can you elaborate? What are they trying to do differently now? Thanks.


I'm sure he's refering to FATCA - the Foreign Account Tax Compliance ct.


----------



## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

kalohi said:


> I'm sure he's refering to FACTA - the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act.


I don't care what it is called, it was a big inconvenience.


----------



## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> It is unlikely that you will make much money teaching English. You will need an English-teaching qualification (TEFL, CELTA, etc.). To get into the state schools, you will have to go in open competition (oposiciones). Teaching privately doesn't pay well (in some cases as little as 5€ per hour). You may find that having an American accent will also block your progress. You will also have a heap of competition since a lot of people take the point of view that they will do xxx and if they need more money they will teach English. You might be able to get into an International school but you will meet a lot of competition.


 Come on Baldi, having an American accent is only a difference to us, certainly not the Spanish, who often ask me if I am from GB. They rarely can tell the difference. I have been teaching here for three years now part time with no difficulty. The biggest Problem I have noticed is the instruction of grammar, which was not how we learned English in the first place. I have had to go back and basically learn English grammar. Hell, while touring the isles a few years ago I swear a lot of the Scotts didn't speak English.


----------



## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

lorort said:


> I find it annoying that you seek advice while breaking the law in a foreign country. I think a lot of folks on this forum had the dream to come to Spain and did it legally. I want to be in Spain too, but would never consider going illegally. Look at the mess we have in the U.S. with people coming in illegally or overstaying there visas. I think when you do what you are wanting to do you are showing a huge disrespect for Spain and its people.


Wahoo! Well said.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Elyles said:


> Come on Baldi, having an American accent is only a difference to us, certainly not the Spanish, who often ask me if I am from GB. They rarely can tell the difference. I have been teaching here for three years now part time with no difficulty. The biggest Problem I have noticed is the instruction of grammar, which was not how we learned English in the first place. I have had to go back and basically learn English grammar. Hell, while touring the isles a few years ago I swear a lot of the Scotts didn't speak English.


It makes a difference sometimes with some employers.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

ksjazzguitar said:


> The idea that “the law is the law and there are no exceptions” is a very American idea and we have to be careful about superimposing it on other cultures.


Sorry but it is a very British idea - we are often horrified at how corrupt Americans are.


----------



## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> Sorry but it is a very British idea - we are often horrified at how corrupt Americans are.


I never paid attention to it but as a culture, in general, WE are not. In my field of employment (mental health) we were far from corruption. Aunque en todo del mundo los políticos son chorizos. Across the pond the higher educated public equate politicians with used car salespeople (the underbelly of sales)


----------



## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> It makes a difference sometimes with some employers.


True, there is a Brit here who has an English school who won't give me or other credentialed Americans the time of day.


----------



## DunWorkin (Sep 2, 2010)

Elyles said:


> Come on Baldi, having an American accent is only a difference to us, certainly not the Spanish, who often ask me if I am from GB. They rarely can tell the difference. I have been teaching here for three years now part time with no difficulty. The biggest Problem I have noticed is the instruction of grammar, which was not how we learned English in the first place. I have had to go back and basically learn English grammar. Hell, while touring the isles a few years ago I swear a lot of the Scotts didn't speak English.



I don't think it is the accent that is the problem but the use of different words and spelling.

A Spaniard who went to England and thought his English was very good would have a shock if he went to a garage and referred to the hood and the trunk. He would probably not be understood. Also the 'color gray' is incorrect in English but not in American.


----------



## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

DunWorkin said:


> I don't think it is the accent that is the problem but the use of different words and spelling. A Spaniard who went to England and thought his English was very good would have a shock if he went to a garage and referred to the hood and the trunk. He would probably not be understood. Also the 'color gray' is incorrect in English but not in American.


All in all though, the differences are few. Even the US things are called by different names all over the country. I do have problems though hearing (At the weekend) instead of (during or on)


----------



## Brangus (May 1, 2010)

ksjazzguitar said:


> What is the Spanish government’s relationship with immigration law and its enforcement? I don't know.


If you stay in Spain illegally, you could find out firsthand when I report you.


----------



## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

But it's so easy to pick up what those small differences are and to teach those things the British way (if that's what's asked of you).


----------



## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

kalohi said:


> But it's so easy to pick up what those small differences are and to teach those things the British way (if that's what's asked of you).


How true! I generally include them.


----------



## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

ksjazzguitar said:


> With regards to “breaking the law” - on one hand, I can completely sympathize. On the other, my personal experiences tell me that things are often not that simple. The idea that “the law is the law and there are no exceptions” is a very American idea and we have to be careful about superimposing it on other cultures....All cultures have a different relationship to “rule of law” and how literally they should be followed. Many have a more “flexible” understanding of the law.


I would say that Spain is very very "unflexible" when it comes to understanding the law. Much more so than in the US, in fact. The bureaucracy to get anything done is unbelieveable. And there's no talking your way out of it if something is missing or not quite right - and there's no passing an envelope to smooth the way. That's only for the high and mightly politicians here. 



ksjazzguitar said:


> You mention immigration in the US – I think I could easily build a case that many laws are not enforced and there is a tacit understanding that some laws will be broken and people look the other way because they know that is “just how things are.” (I won’t bore you with another few paragraphs on that, but suffice it to say if they REALLY wanted to end illegal immigration, they'd start arresting company owners that hire them. They don't because they know they need them and they're good for the economy.)


Here in Spain they DO arrest company owners that hire illegal immigrants. And yes, inspections and arrests happen. It makes the news. All the companies that I know of wouldn't touch a 'sin papeles' with a 10 foot pole. 



ksjazzguitar said:


> What is the Spanish government’s relationship with immigration law and its enforcement? I don't know. When I was in Spain last year, from some of the immigrants with whom I spoke (both legal and illegal) that it wasn’t a big deal. Specifically I've heard (largely online) that this is often the case with teaching English - the agencies (not academies) regularly hire people under the table because they're cheaper and it's too difficult to get Americans a work visa and everyone knows that that's just how it is. I’ve also heard contrasting opinions.


Well I'm stunned. I guess I move in different circles than you do. I think it's a very big deal. The government definitely doesn't look the other way and they don't want 'sin papeles' here filling up Spain's scarce job market. I don't see how you can make any kind of acceptable life for yourself without papers. And I don't know what "agencies" you're talking about (and I've been an English teacher here for 30 years) but they can't be very reputable. 

In this age of computers/the internet it's so easy for the governement to put 2 and 2 together and find illegal workers. It's worth their hassle because it's a revenue maker from the fines.


----------



## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

The guy is still digging for what he wants to hear.


----------



## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Elyles said:


> The guy is still digging for what he wants to hear.


Yep. I'm done defending what is right.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Elyles said:


> The guy is still digging for what he wants to hear.


We get lots of them - they are often disappointed on this forum when we don't play by those misrules. Life is so much easier and definitely more relaxing when one doesn't live in fear of the authorities.


----------



## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

As soon as they imply they are going to do something illegal, they should be kicked off here or reported. It's my old professional code of ethics rearing it's head.


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Elyles said:


> As soon as they imply they are going to do something illegal, they should be kicked off here or reported. It's my old professional code of ethics rearing it's head.


But dont you think its better that they hear the reality of their "plans" from those who know and what they're going to face first hand?

Jo xxx


----------



## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

jojo said:


> But dont you think its better that they hear the reality of their "plans" from those who know and what they're going to face first hand? Jo xxx


 why, they are adults, they know better.


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Elyles said:


> why, they are adults, they know better.


 obviously not lol!!!

I'll close the thread - I dont think there is anything to add is there

Jo xxx


----------

