# Can I get a job before going to Spain?



## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

Hi,

My wife and I want to move to Madrid. We want to do it legally, so I'm hoping to get a job. Unfortunately (as you know) it is hard to get a job without being there.

But I'm not some flaky kid. I'm 40, have an MA (in music) and just want some adventure. I know what I'm getting myself into, I spent 6 years working on cruise ships. How do I convince some manager in Spain of this? Are there any companies that will work with you? I don't mind doing some crappy English teaching job for a few years to get my foot in the door, but I'd rather not fly all the way to Spain, and then _hope_ to find something, then fly all the way back to the US, then fly back.

Is there any hope?

Regards,
Kevin


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Sorry, it's not good news. 
The way things are now it's nigh on impossible to do what you want to do. That's not to say that someone somewhere will/ can do it.
Here's a recent thread on a related topic
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...-hoping-get-residencia-w-o-visa-possible.html
or this one
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...s-living-spain/65259-advice-moving-spain.html


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

I agree Pesky, but on the other hand people on here have said its easier to get a job in the cities


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## djfwells (Sep 28, 2009)

Why Madrid ? - I would imagine that if you have work experience on Cruise ships then that is an area where you have a (slim) chance of finding employment, but there aren't that many of them around in Madrid. Equally so, as you may imagine the are literally hundreds of applicants for each job that becomes available, and unless you very strong skills in a very niche environment I would suggest that you are not going to get a firm job offer without living here legally in Spain and being a Spanish resident (or at the very least being available for a face-to-face interview). 
AND If you don't speak any Spanish then the odds have just tripled.


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2010)

It's not going to matter if you find work - what'll matter is if you find work who will sponsor you. 

Here's the list of jobs in which employers can "easily" justify hiring foreigners: https://www.redtrabaja.es/es/portal...rtura/CatalogoOcupacionesDificilCobertura.pdf

If you're willing to get back into the cruise business, this might be your lucky day (see box at end of page.) 

Good luck.


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## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

halydia said:


> If you're willing to get back into the cruise business, this might be your lucky day.


People keep mentioning this. The purpose of getting a job over there is as a path to immigration. I don't know how the immigration laws over there work, but in the US a crew member visa does absolutely nothing towards getting you residence. Besides, the point would be to get my wife and I over there together.

We're just trying to find a niche. I'm a professional musician who is willing to teach English. I'm willing to take a CELTA course over there, but don't want to have to fly all the way back to the states to wait if it can be avoided. My wife is a native Spanish speaker (Peru) who works as a Spanish teacher (I know, no help) and translator. She also has a lot of experience in child care.

We're just looking for a foot in the door. (I know, easier said than done.)

We are considering having me fly over, take the CELTA, find a job that will sponsor, then fly home and wait. I would prefer to arrange a sponsoring job first flying over, doing the CELTA, then start the job. I know it may not be possible, I was just hoping there was some agency somewhere that would be willing to work with an adult with a solid work record. I am also an experienced jazz/classical guitar player/teacher, but I assume that that would be an impossible route.

Regards,
Kevin


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

Well I hope you get a job in music... I would hate to think you were in a crappy English teaching job ... great attitude for a teacher to have,


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

ksjazzguitar said:


> My wife is a native Spanish speaker (Peru) who works as a Spanish teacher (I know, no help) and translator.


Well, if your wife still has her Peruvian nationality, then Spain can grant her citizenship after living there for two years, and it's quite easy for her to get permission to live and work in Spain. Since the Spanish Civil Code talks about people of iberoamerican national origin, your wife may still be eligible even if she has renounced her Peruvian citizenship. You can accompany her as her dependant and be given permission to live and work, and can be naturalised after living one year with your Spanish wife (so in total 3 years). I must state that I'm no expert on Spanish visa and nationality rules, so I suggest you contact your nearest Spanish consulate to establish your exact position.
http://noticias.juridicas.com/base_datos/Privado/cc.l1t1.html Article 22


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2010)

ksjazzguitar said:


> People keep mentioning this. The purpose of getting a job over there is as a path to immigration. I don't know how the immigration laws over there work, but in the US a crew member visa does absolutely nothing towards getting you residence. Besides, the point would be to get my wife and I over there together.
> 
> We're just trying to find a niche. I'm a professional musician who is willing to teach English. I'm willing to take a CELTA course over there, but don't want to have to fly all the way back to the states to wait if it can be avoided. My wife is a native Spanish speaker (Peru) who works as a Spanish teacher (I know, no help) and translator. She also has a lot of experience in child care.
> 
> ...


I sincerely doubt you will "get your foot in the door" teaching English. Remember, there's a lot of native English speakers who are European Union citizens and who are looking to each English. I have never seen an academy, company, or other organization willing to sponsor an American when they could much more easily fill the spot with a EU citizen. 

HOWEVER, as the cruise industry is one listed on the list of "ocupaciones de dificil cobertura," these industries CAN bring folks in a bit more easily. 

It's your choice. There's few (if any) ways to get here easily, quickly, and legally. Unemployment here is around 20%. Times aren't all that great here. Please be careful looking at CELTA courses/"guaranteed" jobs. There's a lot of scams out there.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

I too would recommend going down the ship or music route because there are a lot of qualified European teachers here that will always be given priority to. Also, few people make a good living out of teaching, so I'd consider the economics too.
I have friends who have worked on the ferries from Bilbao/ Santander, Spanish admitedly, but I don't understand what the issue is about working on a ship and getting a visa?? I think as an American you'd have to look at getting an unusual job as halydia has more or less suggested, so that would lead to a job in music or on the ships, I would have thought.
But perhaps the best idea has come from Joppa and do everything through your wife.


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## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

MaidenScotland said:


> Well I hope you get a job in music... I would hate to think you were in a crappy English teaching job ...


If I could immigrate as a musician or a music teacher I would love to do that. I just don't see how that is possible - if it is, please tell me how. I've seen nothing about how musicians can immigrate (not at my level) and I assume that I'll run into credential problems if I tried to teach at a conservatory (plus my Spanish is not _that_ good.) I do do a lot of private music teaching, but I'm not sure that is a path to immigration. (If it is, please tell how.)

I saw teaching English as vehicle to get in the country legally and work towards immigration. I _do_ understand that it is often a crappy job for low pay, but I don't mind doing it for a few years to get my foot in the door.



Joppa said:


> Well, if your wife still has her Peruvian nationality, then Spain can grant her citizenship after living there for two years, and it's quite easy for her to get permission to live and work in Spain. ...


I understand the the path to citizenship is easier _once_ she is a legal resident. But it is not clear to me that being a Peruvian makes it easier to get a work permit or residence. Actually, when we tried to take a vacation a few years ago, we found that it was actually harder for her to get a tourist visa than it was for me. If you know something I don't, please let me know.



halydia said:


> I sincerely doubt you will "get your foot in the door" teaching English. Remember, there's a lot of native English speakers who are European Union citizens and who are looking to each English.


My understanding is that while most of the English teaching jobs go to UK people, there is some demand for native speakers of American English - just not as much. Of course with the economy the way it is, it may be even tighter now.



halydia said:


> HOWEVER, as the cruise industry is one listed on the list of "ocupaciones de dificil cobertura," these industries CAN bring folks in a bit more easily.


Again, I'm not sure if the visa that crew members get is a path to immigration - in the States it is a dead end. Also, I'm not sure that musicians are the jobs they are looking for, they are usually the easy ones to fill. Usually it is the cabin stewards and cooks (low paying, high hours jobs) that get imported (at least that was how it worked in the States.) Plus, having done that for 6 years, I'm a little burned out on that _and_ don't want to be away from my wife.

Peace,
Kevin


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

Actually I was being facetious..


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2010)

ksjazzguitar said:


> Again, I'm not sure if the visa that crew members get is a path to immigration - in the States it is a dead end. Also, I'm not sure that musicians are the jobs they are looking for, they are usually the easy ones to fill. Usually it is the cabin stewards and cooks (low paying, high hours jobs) that get imported (at least that was how it worked in the States.) Plus, having done that for 6 years, I'm a little burned out on that _and_ don't want to be away from my wife.
> 
> Peace,
> Kevin


Kevin,

I'm just trying to give you viable options. English teaching is not really a viable option for a non-EU citizen. 

Regarding conservatories here, it's a public job. To take the test to get the job, you must be Spanish or be married to a Spaniard. That won't be an option. 

Regarding demand for native speakers of American English, I've never seen this demand. It costs companies months to bring someone legally in, and if they're doing this, they're likely bringing in a highly qualified teacher. 

Good luck.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

MaidenScotland said:


> Actually I was being facetious..


:spit::hail::jaw::jaw::tape2:


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## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

Joppa said:


> Well, if your wife still has her Peruvian nationality, then Spain can grant her citizenship after living there for two years, and it's quite easy for her to get permission to live and work in Spain ...


Yes, we understand that she can get citizenship easily, but that is predicated by two years of legal residency. I don't see the explanation of how she can easily get permission to live and work in Spain. As near as I can tell, she's in the same boat that I am.



halydia said:


> ...HOWEVER, as the cruise industry is one listed on the list of "ocupaciones de dificil cobertura," these industries CAN bring folks in a bit more easily.


Right, but it's not _all_ cruise ship jobs. I don't see "musician" on that list. 



Pesky Wesky said:


> Also, few people make a good living out of teaching, so I'd consider the economics too.


True, but we don't need to make a lot. We have savings and a place to stay already, with her cousins in a house. We just need to get over there.


Thanks, 
Kevin


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## Captain Leaky (Jun 22, 2011)

MaidenScotland said:


> Well I hope you get a job in music... I would hate to think you were in a crappy English teaching job ... great attitude for a teacher to have,


I think you got the wrong end of the stick MaidenScotland.

I thought he said he didnt want to teach crappy English.

accelerator= gas pedal 
accumulator= battery 
advertisement =commercial 
air hostess= flight attendant 
anorak= parka 
aubergine= eggplant 
autumn= fall 
bank holiday= legal holiday 
barrister= lawyer 
bat= paddle 
base rate= prime rate 
bath= bathtub 
bedside table= nightstand 
bill= check 
bin= garbage can 
biscuit= cookie 
bonnet= hood 
booking= reservation 
bookshop= bookstore 
bookstall= newsstand 
boot= trunk 
braces= suspenders 
call box= phone booth 
candy floss= cotton candy 
car park= parking lot 
caravan= trailer 
caretaker= janitor My wife hates that one, Hong Kong phooey's fault. 
centre= center 
chambers= law offices 
chemist's shop= drugstore 
cheque= check 
chips= French fries 
cinema= movie theater 
city centre =downtown 
class= grade 
cloakroom= checkroom 
clothes peg= clothespin 
coach= long distance bus 
cocktail stick= toothpick 
cocoa powder= unsweetened cocoa 
colour= color 
cooker= stove 
costume= swimsuit 
cosy= cozy 
cot (Baby)= crib 
cotton= thread 
crisps= potato chips 
cupboard= closet 
current account= checking account 
curriculum vitae= resume 
cutlery= silverware 
dialogue= dialog 
dinner jacket = tuxedo 
directory enquiries= directory assistance 
diversion= detour 
doctor's surgery= doctor's office 
double cream= heavy cream 
draught= draft 
draughts= checkers 
drawing pin= thumbtack 
dressing gown= bathrobe 
drink driving =drunk driving 
driving licence= driver's license 
driving wheel =steering wheel 
duffle coat= trench coat 
dummy= pacifier 
dustbin= garbage can. My little boy of 6yrs old said that the other day!
duvet= bedspread 
dynamo= generator 
earth= ground 
earth wire =ground wire 
engaged= busy 
engine= motor 
to enquire= to inquire 
enquiry= inquiry 
entrée= appetizer 
exercise book= notebook 
expiry date= expiration date 
extra time= overtime 


ETC ETC


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## pladecalvo (Aug 11, 2010)

ksjazzguitar said:


> If I could immigrate as a musician or a music teacher I would love to do that. I just don't see how that is possible -


It isn't possible! I'm a professional musician with 34 years experience - and it didn't do a damn thing as far as immigration was concerned.....and I'm an EU citizen.


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2011)

ksjazzguitar said:


> Right, but it's not _all_ cruise ship jobs. I don't see "musician" on that list.


It's like my recent uni graduate friends back home, complaining they can't get a job yet refusing to apply at anything "below them." 

You might just have to temporarily switch gears to achieve what you want.


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2011)

Captain Leaky said:


> I think you got the wrong end of the stick MaidenScotland.
> 
> I thought he said he didnt want to teach crappy English.
> 
> ...


:boxing: Oh don't start that, _por fa._


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## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

pladecalvo said:


> It isn't possible! I'm a professional musician with 34 years experience - and it didn't do a damn thing as far as immigration was concerned.....and I'm an EU citizen.


Well, you are an EU citizen - I'm not. That makes a big difference.



halydia said:


> It's like my recent uni graduate friends back home, complaining they can't get a job yet refusing to apply at anything "below them."
> 
> You might just have to temporarily switch gears to achieve what you want.


No, the fact that I once worked on a cruise ship as a musician does not qualify me to work on another ship as an electrician. Besides, considering the TEFL option _is_ me willing to be flexible.

Regards,
Kevin


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## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

Sorry pladecalvo, I misread your post. I thought you said "is" instead of "isn't."


And just to add to the cruise ship thing - I don't know how it is in Spain, but in the US, crew members get a special visa that is a dead end and is no help in immigration. Think about how many ships port in the US and all of those crew members need visas - they don't allow them a path to immigration or all anyone would have to do is sign on a ship. But it wouldn't matter as I'm not qualified for the jobs that they are asking for for Spanish ships anyways.

Regards,
Kevin


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## JulyB (Jul 18, 2011)

Okay, now posing this in the right thread!

As an English teacher in Madrid, I'd say - look very carefully at the employment information for schools that say that they're interested in people who can teach US English. Often in the FAQ they put something about already needing a visa to work there, as they usually don't sponsor. I know this, because I've known a lot of US English teachers who have tried to get jobs with academies who advertise US English, and been told to go away and find a visa somehow.

The schools don't need to help. There are heaps of qualified English speaking people here with experience etc, and there are significant numbers of US-EU duel citizens. It's the same situation if I wanted to move to the US or Canada as an English teacher - it's nearly impossible unless I get some serious university qualifications, because there are enough people there already who can do this. So the companies have no reason to spend the money.

Also, I would just say - don't take this wrong, please - that you really need to think about why you're thinking about teaching English. Sure, there are lots of people spending a year out doing what they consider to be a 'crappy job', but they don't last long, because it's miserable doing a job you hate. Before I moved here and started teaching, I did jobs that I loathed - not because there was anything actually wrong with the job, (I mean, I love teaching English, so for me it's not crappy at all!) but because that particular job didn't suit me, and I had no motivation. That kind of stress can be very bad for you, and those around you.

Now, I don't want to be completely harsh about your prospects - there are always people who make it work somehow. And it's great that you want to do this legally, because many US citizens work here illegally, which can be pretty risky in a lot of ways. Do you have, for example, funds to get here as a student, and study something and make connections in that field, etc? I believe that there are student teacher visas from particular English schools which allow non-EU citizens to work up to twenty hours a week, but the schools know they have a captive audience and so don't pay enough to live on. And again, just that in itself won't help you immigrate and would only last a year.


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## ksjazzguitar (Dec 22, 2010)

JulyB said:


> As an English teacher in Madrid, I'd say - look very carefully at the employment information for schools that say that they're interested in people who can teach US English.


Yes, that's why I'm asking here.



JulyB said:


> Often in the FAQ they put something about already needing a visa to work there, as they usually don't sponsor.


Yes, that is my fear.




JulyB said:


> The schools don't need to help. There are heaps of qualified English speaking people here with experience etc, and there are significant numbers of US-EU duel citizens.


Well, I have read that there are programs to get American English speakers over for TEFL study/teach, so there seems to be _some_ need. Of course that doesn't mean that they are willing to go the extra step to sponsor - especially if they have a steady supply of short-term workers. I was just hoping that _someone_, _somewhere_ might be interested in a more mature, educated person that could make a longer commitment. But it seems to be turning out to be a pipe dream.



JulyB said:


> Also, I would just say - don't take this wrong, please - that you really need to think about why you're thinking about teaching English. ... lots of people spending a year out doing what they consider to be a 'crappy job' ...


Well, first of all, I _love_ teaching. Over the years I have taught guitar, piano, chess, writing, and even English (I taught privately to foreign crewmates while I worked on the cruise ships.) I would look forward to teaching English in a foreign city.

Secondly, I don't mind working a "crappy job" if it gets me something good in exchange. The chance to move to Spain and have access to all of Europe? - that is a prize worth spending a few years in a less than ideal job. I'm not some hedonistic 25 year-old looking for fun and adventure - I'm a 40 year-old man that understands that work means trading a piece of your life for something that you want.



JulyB said:


> And it's great that you want to do this legally, because many US citizens work here illegally, which can be pretty risky in a lot of ways.


After high school, I spent almost two years homeless. I would not be willing to live in fear in a tenuous situation like living illegally in a foreign country.



JulyB said:


> Do you have, for example, funds to get here as a student, and study something and make connections in that field, etc?


We have considered and are looking into that option. I have an MA (in classical guitar performance) and would live to study more. The problem is that these programs are in Spanish. Could I study in Spanish? Maybe - I have a year of college Spanish, and my wife is a Spanish teacher, and music is a very specific vocabulary. The other obstacle is that I would need to pursue a more academic path in music and sometimes it is hard to convince academic professors that performance majors can do the academic stuff (even though I excelled, graduating summa cum laude.) But I would love to go and study for an MA and/or PhD in something like composition, analysis, or musicology. I just don't know that I can.

My wife is another option. She was Peruvian but now holds a US passport. She studied Spanish literature and linguistics in Peru. We've considered having her study in Madrid. She is concerned that there will be some reluctance to accept her Peruvian degree (We have friends and family that have reported a general prejudice against anything not Spanish and against things Latin American.)

But we are looking into these. We have _some_ money saved, maybe $30k. I think I read somewhere that if you study for three years, that can be a path to immigration. 



JulyB said:


> I believe that there are student teacher visas from particular English schools which allow non-EU citizens to work up to twenty hours a week, but the schools know they have a captive audience and so don't pay enough to live on.


Again, I don't mind spending some time in a less than ideal job to get to where I want to be. It's the same thing I did working on the cruise ship - crappy job that got me to hang out in the Caribbean in the day and practice music at night.

I simply looked at TEFL because it was a potentially marketable skill. If I could get there teaching guitar or music, then I would love to do that. But I assume that those skills would be even less in demand. It has occurred to me that as an American jazz musician, that _that_ might be something marketable. But there are plenty of jazz musicians in Spain, even if not "American." Even so, I'll be sending out some cold emails to some music schools in Madrid, just in case.



JulyB said:


> And again, just that in itself won't help you immigrate and would only last a year.


They can't be renewed? I understand that I need to be there for 5 years to apply for something more permanent. I also understand that as a Peruvian, my wife only has to wait for two years.

Regards,
Kevin


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2011)

ksjazzguitar said:


> She is concerned that there will be some reluctance to accept her Peruvian degree (We have friends and family that have reported a general prejudice against anything not Spanish and against things Latin American.)


Here's the process she'd have to go through: 
Homologación de títulos extranjeros de educación superior a Títulos Universitarios y Grados Académicos Españoles. 

If she wants to get it legalized completely as having a specific major, the process can take between a year and a year and a half and will likely require taking more bachelors level courses at a Spanish university. I have a friend from Peru who, after a very long wait, must now take three Economics courses to have a legally recognized Bachelor's Degree with a major in Economics in Spain.

I took the quicker route. It's called _Homologación a Grado de Licenciada._ What's that mean? In Spain's eyes I have a bachelors degree. Forget my double major - it's a bachelor's degree. No majors, no fun... 
Why'd I do this? I couldn't afford to wait a year to hear I needed to take x-number of university courses so Spain would recognize my degrees in Political Science and Spanish. It's rough, but at least in Canada they're worth something!


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