# Childrens futures in New Zealand



## Darla.R

A friend of mine in New Zealand just emailed me a link to this newspaper article about the budget.

Dita De Boni : Trying to keep the faith - Budget 2011 - NZ Herald News



> It depresses me to think that inevitably, one if not all of my children will make their futures offshore.
> 
> If New Zealand does not change course and grow its economy in a true and sustainable way in the next decade, we can kiss our children and grandchildren goodbye and simply hope we have the kind of money that allows us to visit them in far more vibrant markets offshore where their talents and education will provide a genuine pay-off.
> 
> My husband and I are the last children in each of our respective families to have stayed in New Zealand, so we know a little of what we speak. Our brothers and sisters have lived around the world but settled in Australia, where they simply seem to have more opportunity (if not always more actual money). There are options there for working people that just don't exist here, and the differences and stark and painful.


It is just so tragic. People had such high hopes for National that they'd turn around New Zealand and do something brave and exciting to keep their young people. 

I even voted for them thinking that they'd be good for the country after so many wasted years under Labour.


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## YoungsSpecialLondon

It's good that someone is pointing out that the Nats have no vision. At least Labour didn't share that fault. 

Even so, there's nothing new about what Dita De Boni says. NZ has, broadly speaking, had a better educated populace than comparable countries for about a hundred years. This will probably continue to be the case (unless the National Party continues its politically-motivated meddling). But it is also true that during this hundred years, a lot of its best talent has left. If it's lifestyle you want, you stay here: if it's money or fame, you leave. Think Mansfield and Rutherford for example, along with various playwrights, and even lawyers who have gone to the top level overseas, particularly in Britain.


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## topcat83

Darla.R said:


> A friend of mine in New Zealand just emailed me a link to this newspaper article about the budget.
> 
> Dita De Boni : Trying to keep the faith - Budget 2011 - NZ Herald News
> 
> 
> 
> It is just so tragic. People had such high hopes for National that they'd turn around New Zealand and do something brave and exciting to keep their young people.
> 
> I even voted for them thinking that they'd be good for the country after so many wasted years under Labour.


Hopefully you'll agree more with the politics of your new country. Maybe you could go and find something positive to post in the Australian Forum?


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## Darla.R

topcat83 said:


> Hopefully you'll agree more with the politics of your new country. Maybe you could go and find something positive to post in the Australian Forum?


The politics are every bit as bad here, plus we have the federal and state politics to contend with.


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## Darla.R

YoungsSpecialLondon said:


> It's good that someone is pointing out that the Nats have no vision. At least Labour didn't share that fault.
> 
> Even so, there's nothing new about what Dita De Boni says. NZ has, broadly speaking, had a better educated populace than comparable countries for about a hundred years. This will probably continue to be the case (unless the National Party continues its politically-motivated meddling). But it is also true that during this hundred years, a lot of its best talent has left. If it's lifestyle you want, you stay here: if it's money or fame, you leave. Think Mansfield and Rutherford for example, along with various playwrights, and even lawyers who have gone to the top level overseas, particularly in Britain.


I don't know if there's ever going to be a solution to this problem to be honest. One can only hope that many of those who do leave will one day return to New Zealand to raise families, bringing their wealth and experience with them.


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## jenswaters

Darla.R said:


> A friend of mine in New Zealand just emailed me a link to this newspaper article about the budget.
> 
> Dita De Boni : Trying to keep the faith - Budget 2011 - NZ Herald News
> 
> 
> 
> It is just so tragic. People had such high hopes for National that they'd turn around New Zealand and do something brave and exciting to keep their young people.
> 
> I even voted for them thinking that they'd be good for the country after so many wasted years under Labour.


I think this is a very sad thread, for several reasons. I find it fascinating that politicians and journalists will find such amazing ways of twisting a growing culture of teenagers doing what teenagers SHOULD be doing...exploring this beautiful world. 

I have travelled a lot and met Kiwi's in every country I have visited and lived in. All of them, without exception, said that while they loved being overseas and the experience was great for their career etc, that they would always return to their NZ homeland, especially to raise their children. Of course there are always people out there who feel the opposite, but perspective is required to understand a teenagers mind. As someone who has worked with them for over a decade, I feel I am in a good position to form an opinion. 

Teenagers don't care about politics and who is in charge enough to actually leave a country because of it! The fact is, NZ is a pretty long way from anywhere, and as a lot of teenagers haven't actually travelled to the other island (i.e. live in North, but holiday in South), never mind left the country for a holiday, it is clear to understand why they leave. There ARE more job opportunities overseas, if only because populations and cultural demands make it so. In the UK, 76 million people reside, so there is a high demand on everything and therefore an increase in production etc. In the Cayman Islands, it is a tax haven so there are many banks out there....hence the majority of the populations (75% expats) work in finance!!!

When I mentioned to my mother that we were moving to NZ, she tried to scare me out of it by saying that my children would want to leave when they were older. My response???? "I bloody hope they do"! It is a huge world out there, with diversity at every turn. I didn't do my growing up and creating of values and beliefs until I had left the UK and travelled...and by then I was a mother and in my late 20's! I would be selfishly happy if my kids stayed around me, but I would be very happy and proud of them if they decided to go out and "discover" themselves in another country. After all, it is THEIR life to lead the way they think is right for them. 

One thing I do know, is that the reasons for moving here are stronger now than they were before we arrived...family and children. This is, without a doubt, the best place in the world to raise children (certainly from this expat's perspective). As my son's father said who lives overseas and has travelled well himself "yeah, it's a long way from anywhere, but this is easily the best place on earth for him to just be a child. He is happiest here, and nowhere else can give that as easily as NZ"...and that from my ex-husband who only sees his son once a year!!!!

So sure, read what the papers say about politics and jobs "forcing" our youth away from NZ. I don't believe it for a minute. I think that natural youthful need to learn and explore is the reason why Kiwi's leave...and will eventually make them value what is here for their return.

Jen


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## Darla.R

I think the way the student loan system is handled in New Zealand makes it hard for graduates to stay there. They go abroad to do their OEs and the debt mounts up whilst they're away. I don't know that the government's plan to claw back this money from grad expats will do much to bring them home either, I think it will make them dig their toes in and stay put so that they can earn enough to make the repayments.

Call for expats to repay student loans | Stuff.co.nz

For some grads, especially those in the medical profession, their student loans are horrendous - they're almost forced into going abroad.

Rather than getting tough on the defaulters perhaps the government should give grads the incentive to stay in New Zealand, or give them tax breaks if they return within two years.

Australia doesn't have any plans to claw back fees from its grads after they leave and won't chase after them if they do. This makes it easy for them to return when they're ready.

There is a very large population of New Zealanders here, I don't know a single one who has any desire to return home. It's close enough for them to visit when they want to but they're all very firmly settled here and enjoying the lifestyle. 

The older ones stay because they prefer the weather, have money invested in their homes, have very solid family and social networks, prefer the better medical services, pensions and lower cost of living. There is no reason for them to leave.

For the younger people it may be a different situation if they're still on special category visas as they don't have the same rights as Australian citizens, some of them are likely to go back as they near retirement so that they can take advantage of social welfare system over there. However, I can see them maintaining their property ownership and other here too so that they can have the best of both worlds.

Having brought up children in both countries I must say that I, and they, prefer it here.


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## anski

jenswaters said:


> I think this is a very sad thread, for several reasons. I find it fascinating that politicians and journalists will find such amazing ways of twisting a growing culture of teenagers doing what teenagers SHOULD be doing...exploring this beautiful world.
> 
> I have travelled a lot and met Kiwi's in every country I have visited and lived in. All of them, without exception, said that while they loved being overseas and the experience was great for their career etc, that they would always return to their NZ homeland, especially to raise their children. Of course there are always people out there who feel the opposite, but perspective is required to understand a teenagers mind. As someone who has worked with them for over a decade, I feel I am in a good position to form an opinion.
> 
> Teenagers don't care about politics and who is in charge enough to actually leave a country because of it! The fact is, NZ is a pretty long way from anywhere, and as a lot of teenagers haven't actually travelled to the other island (i.e. live in North, but holiday in South), never mind left the country for a holiday, it is clear to understand why they leave. There ARE more job opportunities overseas, if only because populations and cultural demands make it so. In the UK, 76 million people reside, so there is a high demand on everything and therefore an increase in production etc. In the Cayman Islands, it is a tax haven so there are many banks out there....hence the majority of the populations (75% expats) work in finance!!!
> 
> When I mentioned to my mother that we were moving to NZ, she tried to scare me out of it by saying that my children would want to leave when they were older. My response???? "I bloody hope they do"! It is a huge world out there, with diversity at every turn. I didn't do my growing up and creating of values and beliefs until I had left the UK and travelled...and by then I was a mother and in my late 20's! I would be selfishly happy if my kids stayed around me, but I would be very happy and proud of them if they decided to go out and "discover" themselves in another country. After all, it is THEIR life to lead the way they think is right for them.
> 
> One thing I do know, is that the reasons for moving here are stronger now than they were before we arrived...family and children. This is, without a doubt, the best place in the world to raise children (certainly from this expat's perspective). As my son's father said who lives overseas and has travelled well himself "yeah, it's a long way from anywhere, but this is easily the best place on earth for him to just be a child. He is happiest here, and nowhere else can give that as easily as NZ"...and that from my ex-husband who only sees his son once a year!!!!
> 
> So sure, read what the papers say about politics and jobs "forcing" our youth away from NZ. I don't believe it for a minute. I think that natural youthful need to learn and explore is the reason why Kiwi's leave...and will eventually make them value what is here for their return.
> 
> Jen



Jen well said, funnily enough I have some friends visiting at the moment & we all grew up in South Africa & we have just spent the night lamenting that our childhood was the best ever being lucky enough to grow up in South Africa. Our children grew up in Australia many years ago when Australia was so much better than it is today.

Our childhoods are often the happiest & most memorable times of our lives. NZ has such a small population & therefore has less pressures & problems than other countries today but no doubt one day all this will change.
Hopefully not in my time.

I love NZ, it has old fashioned values.


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## jenswaters

Darla.R said:


> I think the way the student loan system is handled in New Zealand makes it hard for graduates to stay there. They go abroad to do their OEs and the debt mounts up whilst they're away. I don't know that the government's plan to claw back this money from grad expats will do much to bring them home either, I think it will make them dig their toes in and stay put so that they can earn enough to make the repayments.
> 
> Call for expats to repay student loans | Stuff.co.nz
> 
> For some grads, especially those in the medical profession, their student loans are horrendous - they're almost forced into going abroad.
> 
> Rather than getting tough on the defaulters perhaps the government should give grads the incentive to stay in New Zealand, or give them tax breaks if they return within two years.
> 
> Australia doesn't have any plans to claw back fees from its grads after they leave and won't chase after them if they do. This makes it easy for them to return when they're ready.


Hmmmm...a good point, although Australia is in the minority with deferring interest and payments. However, with a tiny population next to the Australian one, you can see why the NZ government has to be so strict...that is a source of income and impacts population directly. Also, why should the government pay for higher education, and then lose that educated person to another country permanently? I get that this "system" is a deterrant, and it is one that is used the world over. 

The "NZ system" is the same as the USA and UK systems, and they will, and do, try to chase you the world over (I STILL have my student loan from over 10 years ago, and they have contacted me in the 4 countries I have lived in to sort it out)! Examples of the student loan system in America can be found on a previous thread here, when a US citizen was too scared to leave the US due to the horrific amounts of repayments that get demanded when you are overseas. She was trapped...wanting to leave to use her qualifications, but couldn't afford the almost-double repayments when she did so.

I am not going to get in to a debate regarding people leaving/returning to NZ. You have seemed pretty intent on spending time trying to stir up this argument in the NZ forum (even though you reside in Australia where most people would post about moving to Australia). It is, and ALWAYS will be, "horses for courses"...what suits some doesn't suit all. In my short time here, I have been bowled over by the number of people who move back and forth between the 2 Australasian countries. But as Topcat has pointed out many times, it is easy to do when you hold the NZ/Aus passport. And over here, people think very little of moving towns and countries, whereas moving to the next town in some areas of the UK is seen as a big issue! There is a bigger population, it is a bigger country, and there are more job opportunities over in Australia, so no wonder so many Kiwi's seeking work go over there. You also get warmer weather (usually). However, people who move the other way (Aus to NZ, or the rest of the world to NZ) are coming here NOT for money, but for a slower, safer lifestyle than can be found elsewhere. 

So, sure..those motivated by money and hot weather, go to Aus. Those motivated by slower lifestyle, family-first values, and a more sheltered upbringing (but with less $ in the pocket possibly), should be moving to NZ. 

And here endeth the lesson!!


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## Darla.R

I'm not sure I agree with you about the "slower,safer lifestyle" being something that's exclusive to New Zealand. That's fairly common to both countries, although I do admit the weather is better here, as are the salaries (with all the benefits that a bigger economy brings such as better equipped schools, hospitals, support services etc.)

Did you see this today?

NZ among the happiest of the OECD - life-style | Stuff.co.nz

There isn't much to chose between us is there


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## jenswaters

Darla.R said:


> I'm not sure I agree with you about the "slower,safer lifestyle" being something that's exclusive to New Zealand. That's fairly common to both countries, although I do admit the weather is better here, as are the salaries (with all the benefits that a bigger economy brings such as better equipped schools, hospitals, support services etc.)
> 
> Did you see this today?
> 
> NZ among the happiest of the OECD - life-style | Stuff.co.nz
> 
> There isn't much to chose between us is there


Again, I'm afraid I disagree on the better schools, hospitals, support services etc. My comparisons on this are made with the UK, NOT Australia. I haven't been to Australia to live (only visit), and only know of people who live/have lived there in the past, again SOME love it, SOME hate it. As always made clear in every post I make, it is about PERSONAL PREFERENCE AND CHOICE.

The health service I have received for my daughter, through A&E hospital visits, and now maternity care far surpass that of theUK experiences I had. With the higher population in the UK, it is a far more stretched health system than that of NZ. Service is better and friendlier too (although that is NOT a reflection on doctors and nurses, simply the government pressure and targets that are more evident than here in NZ). I find that the education service is better here than the UK. It is far more individual and specialised than anything I have experienced in the UK main stream comprehensives that have a curriculum dictated by politicians. In terms of buildings, you may have a point, but a building doesn't make a school good or bad...just easier. It's the teachers, students and individual needs that make a school work well.

You seem intent on creating an Aus vs NZ atmosphere on here, which is fine IF responding to specific questions about which is better/worse/differences. As Moderator's, it is our job to ensure that questions are answered with well-balanced views that are relevant to the question. As you live in Aus, and have made it quite clear on numerous occasions that you have no intention of living here, it seems a little pointless and off the point to keep posting these kind of "Aus v NZ" threads that YOU instigate. You have a great perspective of Aus, so it would be better to keep your postings to the Australia forum OR respond to the Aus vs NZ threads that pop up occasionally. We value your input when relative to what is asked by people intending to move to this part of the world.

BTW, I found that the article was a better reflection on politics, rather than how bright a childs future is in NZ.


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## topcat83

Well said, Jen.

I am wondering, Darla, if you would do well applying to the Australian Immigration Marketing Department for a job (or if, in fact, you already work for them  )



jenswaters said:


> Again, I'm afraid I disagree on the better schools, hospitals, support services etc. My comparisons on this are made with the UK, NOT Australia. I haven't been to Australia to live (only visit), and only know of people who live/have lived there in the past, again SOME love it, SOME hate it. As always made clear in every post I make, it is about PERSONAL PREFERENCE AND CHOICE.
> 
> The health service I have received for my daughter, through A&E hospital visits, and now maternity care far surpass that of theUK experiences I had. With the higher population in the UK, it is a far more stretched health system than that of NZ. Service is better and friendlier too (although that is NOT a reflection on doctors and nurses, simply the government pressure and targets that are more evident than here in NZ). I find that the education service is better here than the UK. It is far more individual and specialised than anything I have experienced in the UK main stream comprehensives that have a curriculum dictated by politicians. In terms of buildings, you may have a point, but a building doesn't make a school good or bad...just easier. It's the teachers, students and individual needs that make a school work well.
> 
> You seem intent on creating an Aus vs NZ atmosphere on here, which is fine IF responding to specific questions about which is better/worse/differences. As Moderator's, it is our job to ensure that questions are answered with well-balanced views that are relevant to the question. As you live in Aus, and have made it quite clear on numerous occasions that you have no intention of living here, it seems a little pointless and off the point to keep posting these kind of "Aus v NZ" threads that YOU instigate. You have a great perspective of Aus, so it would be better to keep your postings to the Australia forum OR respond to the Aus vs NZ threads that pop up occasionally. We value your input when relative to what is asked by people intending to move to this part of the world.
> 
> BTW, I found that the article was a better reflection on politics, rather than how bright a childs future is in NZ.


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## Darla.R

Haha!! I don't think they'd have me - I'm not an Australian citizen, yet . It is not my field all those different visas are far too complicated. No, I'm very happy working as a Pharmacologist thanks.


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## YoungsSpecialLondon

Darla.R said:


> I think the way the student loan system is handled in New Zealand makes it hard for graduates to stay there. They go abroad to do their OEs and the debt mounts up whilst they're away. I don't know that the government's plan to claw back this money from grad expats will do much to bring them home either, I think it will make them dig their toes in and stay put so that they can earn enough to make the repayments.


To be fair, I don't see how the NZ system could be made better without radically restructuring or replacing higher education. It simply isn't practical for the Govt to give grants to every student in tertiary education. The next best option is the student loan system, which compares pretty favourably with a loan from just about any other lender. Overseas borrowers only have to pay at interest rates normally charged on loans secured by houses. The maximum repayment obligation if one is overseas is $3,000 per annum, which isn't a lot assuming that one is working. NZ residents basically get free money: no interest at all.

The real injustice is forcing everyone to go through higher education simply to be able to get jobs that school leavers could probably do well enough. I can't think of any professions (as opposed to trades) in NZ that don't require a degree. Law and accountancy require university study, and I know that's not the case in the UK for example, where one get into both professions by becoming an articled clerk instead.


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## wammers

Just thought I'd throw in my two penneth into this thread! 

Firstly, politics seem to have be brought into this this debate - well lets not get started on that one - politicians (no matter what party and in which country) have a degree in being able to stuff everything up for everyone else but themselves! So its best to continue your life without getting stressed out about all the wierd and wonderful laws that they create in an attempt to make the world a better place. Just accept them and deal with them in the best way you can.

Ask any parent what they want for their children's future and they will ALL say health and happiness. Fame and fortune don't always bring either of these, so for me, NZ is the land of plenty when it comes to providing your child with a free spirit to enjoy the true riches of life -HEALTH & HAPPINESS! 

So for anyone thinking of bringing young children over to NZ to provide them with a freer, less materialistic , family orientated upbringing - how smart are you! Wish we had been smart/brave enough to bring our children over when they were younger but hey ho, better late than never!

Children create their own futures, just like we did, remember? So if they want to be a brain surgeon and enjoy the relaxed lifestyle of NZ, they can have it if they want. There is nothing that any politician/crap policy can do to stop that happening. 

So if this thread was started just to sow a seed of doubt that you have made or could be making the wrong decision about your childrens future, you must be out of your mind and have nothing better to do! I too find it strange that expats are enjoying a happy, fulfilling lifestyle in their chosen country outside of NZ, yet continue to keep jumping onto the NZ forum to air their grievances. I have an endless list of grievances about the UK but not once have I even looked into the British forum let alone commented on any the threads. Maybe its just that I dont bear that strong a grudge, who knows! 

So, are childrens futures bright in NZ? ABSOLUTELY! 

Ok I'm done now


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## Darla.R

YoungsSpecialLondon said:


> The real injustice is forcing everyone to go through higher education simply to be able to get jobs that school leavers could probably do well enough. I can't think of any professions (as opposed to trades) in NZ that don't require a degree. Law and accountancy require university study, and I know that's not the case in the UK for example, where one get into both professions by becoming an articled clerk instead.


Yes you're right there, when I think about it I can't come up with any either.


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## YoungsSpecialLondon

wammers said:


> Children create their own futures, just like we did, remember? So if they want to be a brain surgeon and enjoy the relaxed lifestyle of NZ, they can have it if they want. There is nothing that any politician/crap policy can do to stop that happening.


Not necessarily. I'm not sure how many brain surgeons there are in NZ, but it seems quite feasible that all the vacancies might be filled at a particular time.

I agree with you insofar that to join one of the professions simply requires hard work (and a fair amount of debt). But because of its size, NZ professions tend towards the general practitioner or the all-rounder. if you want to specialise in a particular field, it is quite likely that you will need to head overseas. Let's say that you want to specialise in high finance. You will get much more opportunity in London, New York, Dubai or Hong Kong.




> I too find it strange that expats are enjoying a happy, fulfilling lifestyle in their chosen country outside of NZ, yet continue to keep jumping onto the NZ forum to air their grievances. I have an endless list of grievances about the UK but not once have I even looked into the British forum let alone commented on any the threads. Maybe its just that I dont bear that strong a grudge, who knows!
> 
> So, are childrens futures bright in NZ? ABSOLUTELY!
> 
> Ok I'm done now


Good.

I appreciate that what you've said was kindly meant, but it seems a bit much to suggest that we have no business discussing some of the shortfalls of our adopted country, and even more to suggest that it evidences a grudge.

I don't spend all my weekends moaning into a pint of imported Tetley's and I expect no-one else posting here does either. We are, as you note, probably enjoying too happy and fulfilling a lifestyle for that.

In any event, I'm sure you'd agree it is surely the business of would-be immigrants to read the opinions of those who have emigrated here, to ascertain whether NZ would be a good fit for them.

To recap, my views are a) that NZ has an excellent education system and b) lacks some of the opportunities available in larger countries. I am not sure how this in any way fails to be fair comment.


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## topcat83

YoungsSpecialLondon said:


> .... I appreciate that what you've said was kindly meant, but it seems a bit much to suggest that we have no business discussing some of the shortfalls of our adopted country, and even more to suggest that it evidences a grudge....


This forum is definitely here to present balanced discussions, and to give people a realistic picture of the country they are interested in. I think the problem is that there are a handful of contributors who give nothing _but_ a view of the negatives. 

So YoungSpecialLondon - the shortfalls certainly do need to be discussed too - together with the good things that we've found.


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## Darla.R

I think some people here have got a bee in their bonnet when it comes to who is allowed to discus what you call the negatives. 

I always try to make balanced posts because nothing is ever black or white (e.g. the recent discussion about Sydney and Auckland) but some people are overly defensive when they see that it is me that's writing it. All they see are negatives in what I say and don't stop to think about what I'm really saying.


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## Darla.R

For example, go back to the start of this thread and read the replies that were made to my opening post.

I hope you are not hinting that I may be one of "the contributors who give nothing_ but _a view of the negatives" i obviously do not do this.

For example, earlier in the thread I wrote



> I'm not sure I agree with you about the "slower,safer lifestyle" being something that's exclusive to New Zealand. That's fairly common to both countries, although I do admit the weather is better here, as are the salaries (with all the benefits that a bigger economy brings such as better equipped schools, hospitals, support services etc.)
> 
> Did you see this today?
> 
> http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/5052208/NZ-among-the-happiest-of-the-OECD?
> 
> There isn't much to chose between us is there


As I said, I always try to provide balance. It just doesn't get seen as such by some people.

I think the next thing you're going to say is that I'm always doing NZ down by comparing it with where I live now. However, if you go back through this thread you will see it was not me who first brought up the subject of Australia.


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## topcat83

Darla.R said:


> I think some people here have got a bee in their bonnet when it comes to who is allowed to discus what you call the negatives.


There may be a reason for that, Darla.



> I always try to make balanced posts because nothing is ever black or white (e.g. the recent discussion about Sydney and Auckland) but some people are overly defensive when they see that it is me that's writing it. All they see are negatives in what I say and don't stop to think about what I'm really saying.


No, I don't see just the negatives - but I personally (and _not_ speaking as a mod, but as _me_) do find the constant (negative) comparisons to Australia a bit of a bore.


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## Darla.R

Thank you for clarifying that it is your personal opinion. But, as I said before, it isn't me that usually raises the A word.


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