# The smoking Ban!!



## jojo

I hate to bring this up, but on the news here earlier they were saying that the smoking ban is going to happen in Spain in the second half of this year - its probably going to be the same kind of ban as in the UK - altho they're looking at the 100% ban they have in Ireland!!

I'm not sure that it'll go down too well in Spain as the Spanish seem to be a defiant bunch in the main!!??? It'll be interesting to see what happens. There are predictions of mass bar closures - altho most bars have outside terraces which will only be affected if they go for the 100% ban?!

Any thoughts??

Jo xxx


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## SteveHall

Not a hope in Arsenal of it being enforced diligently. Punto, final 

(Sadly as I am anti-smoking evangelist)


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## nigele2

jojo said:


> I hate to bring this up, but on the news here earlier they were saying that the smoking ban is going to happen in Spain in the second half of this year - its probably going to be the same kind of ban as in the UK - altho they're looking at the 100% ban they have in Ireland!!
> 
> I'm not sure that it'll go down too well in Spain as the Spanish seem to be a defiant bunch in the main!!??? It'll be interesting to see what happens. There are predictions of mass bar closures - altho most bars have outside terraces which will only be affected if they go for the 100% ban?!
> 
> Any thoughts??
> 
> Jo xxx


So no job, no home, no hope and now no ciggies. The revolution is getting closer. 

I'm not an economist but if I was Mr Shoemaker I'd increase the tax. The last thing Spain needs is less tax revenue and people living longer


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## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> I hate to bring this up, but on the news here earlier they were saying that the smoking ban is going to happen in Spain in the second half of this year - its probably going to be the same kind of ban as in the UK - altho they're looking at the 100% ban they have in Ireland!!
> 
> I'm not sure that it'll go down too well in Spain as the Spanish seem to be a defiant bunch in the main!!??? It'll be interesting to see what happens. There are predictions of mass bar closures - altho most bars have outside terraces which will only be affected if they go for the 100% ban?!
> 
> Any thoughts??
> 
> Jo xxx


It probably won't go down too well at all!

I wish they'd get on with it though. I'm told that a lot of the bars on the seafront at the Arenal end of town have already banned smoking indoors.

I was teaching a class in the bar last night & because of the wet weather they didn't have their 'outside/inside/covered/screened' area open, so we had to sit inside. It wasn't that busy & there weren't that many smokers - but when I got home I felt like I'd smoked 20 **** myself & then bathed in smoke


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## jojo

I smoke but I dont go in bars so I dont care! Personally, if they're going down the "lets ban peoples freedom" route, I'd like to see alcohol banned as well as thats a far greater problem, socially, mentally and physically IMO. Also I worry about the fact that bars may have to close and even more people out of work......

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica

I don't think it will be particularly well enforced either, as Steve says - we can but hope.

Truthfully - I can't see many bars actually closing because of a smoking ban, as jojo says, so many have outside areas in any case.

I won't walk into a smoky bar (unless I have no choice like last night) & I'm sure there are a lot of non-smokers like me, so maybe the really smoky ones will just get a new set of customers


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## jojo

The thing about Spain tho is that it isnt wrapped up in "dos and donts" certainly for me that was its appeal. I hope silly bans wont change the country - that said I dont think it will be particularly well enforced either, especially when you see some of these real campo bars, with a couple of old men having a *** and a beer to escape "her indoors". Or even some expat bars, away from the tourist towns where they all park their illegal RHD cars outside EEEKK!!

I actually find that in Spain, smoking isnt viewed as it is in the UK. In the UK I wouldnt have dreamt of smoking in the street for example. In Spain its not frowned upon in the same way. Like a pointed out on another thread, theres actually a smoking station at my daughters school for the pupils WTF!!!! That'll have to go, altho it is outside lol

I often wonder who decided to make smoking the baddie, it would have been some hidden political thing - I'll bet it wasnt a doctor! There are infinately worse things


Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky

jojo said:


> I'm not sure that it'll go down too well in Spain as the Spanish seem to be a defiant bunch in the main!!??? It'll be interesting to see what happens. There are predictions of mass bar closures - altho most bars have outside terraces which will only be affected if they go for the 100% ban?!
> 
> Any thoughts??
> 
> Jo xxx


I have no idea what will happen beyond:bored: endless tv programmes and radio debates with people speaking over each other stating the case for and against.:yawn:
BUT, I do think it's a sad situation when people say they can't go out because they can't :smokin:smoke:smokin:, so therefore bars are going to close down - :doh:for goodness sakes people - Get a Life!!
PW (ex smoker!!)


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> I have no idea what will happen beyond:bored: endless tv programmes and radio debates with people speaking over each other stating the case for and against.:yawn:
> BUT, I do think it's a sad situation when people say they can't go out because they can't :smokin:smoke:smokin:, so therefore bars are going to close down - :doh:for goodness sakes people - Get a Life!!
> PW (ex smoker!!)


I think it's ridiculous that I can't go into a bar because I *don't* smoke

well I know I _could_, but why would I want to go in & inhale everyone else's smoke


it was hard enough giving up smoking, without having other people causing damage to my lungs


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> it was hard enough giving up smoking, without having other people causing damage to my lungs


 
Exactly xabiachica:clap2:!!!


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## jojo

xabiachica said:


> I think it's ridiculous that I can't go into a bar because I *don't* smoke
> 
> well I know I _could_, but why would I want to go in & inhale everyone else's smoke
> 
> 
> it was hard enough giving up smoking, without having other people causing damage to my lungs



I dont disagree, I guess I'd like to see a choice made by the people who run the bars and who use the bars, not some dictator in Brussels or wherever! Besides, there are some amazing air con units these days that could remove the smell of smoke in seconds! I dont like air con either tho!! I'm not easily pleased!!

But I very rarely go in bars anyway. 



Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> I dont disagree, I guess I'd like to see a choice made by the people who run the bars and who use the bars, not some dictator in Brussels or wherever! Besides, there are some amazing air con units these days that could remove the smell of smoke in seconds! I dont like air con either tho!! I'm not easily pleased!!
> 
> But I very rarely go in bars anyway.
> 
> Jo xxx
> 
> Jo xxx


where do you go for coffee?


what you suggest is pretty much the way it stands at the moment - but I have yet to find a 'non-smoking' bar


I agree about the aircon - hate it


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## jojo

xabiachica said:


> where do you go for coffee?
> 
> 
> what you suggest is pretty much the way it stands at the moment - but I have yet to find a 'non-smoking' bar
> 
> 
> I agree about the aircon - hate it


I havent recently (billy no mates!!) , when I do, we tend to sit outside. On the odd occasion when I do into a bar I dont generally smoke - well it depends who I'm with, if I do, its usually cos those I'm with do, but I could quite happily go without, I cant say I've ever been in anywhere that I find too smoky, but that could be cos I'm a smoker and dont notice??!. If we go into a restaurant for a meal, I wouldnt dream of lighting up at all! - I'm not a "have to have a ***" type. In fact I havent had one today.

This whole ban issue isnt really about smoking to me, its about eroding peoples way of life ,and freedom of choice, ultimately turning us all into robots. and I dont believe that smoking is being banned for the good of our health - I know smoking isnt good, but I think theres more to it!!!

Jo xxx


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## nigele2

Dozens of smoke free bars where I am and in Madrid there seem more and more. In my village the signs say "Puedes fumar aqui" and not "prohibido fumar" I do however notice it in restaurants and it can be a pain when eating.

Interesting if you enter your locale here and if it throws up any surprises Locales sin humos - 20minutos.es Its not comprehensive but shows a few.

Must admit that this smoking thing seems to worry ex smokers more than non smokers. Doesn't worry me too much and I definately wouldn't want air con in my bar. 

I would however like 3 or 4 cellar chilled real ales


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## owdoggy

Hmmm.... aye, I've heard about this and as with a lot of things in this country.....I'll believe it when I see it. 

Round here there are quite a few places with smoking in the bar but not in the restaurant which I totally agree with (and yes, I am a leper by the way) unlike in France where in some of the places we've been (not big cities tho') I swear they smoke during the courses and not just in between them

Laws from Brussels are one thing but policing is another, especially out here in the sticks(ish) where the local police & guardia pop in for their coffee, nip & ciggie(s) in quite a few of the places. Would they police a smoking ban with vigour?........I could be wrong (and quite often am:confused2 I think not but we'll see.

At the end of the day if it does come in and is policed properly.... well..... it ain't the end of the world (used to it back in cold, damp & dismal blighty) and if I have to nip outside for a smoke then.....for me.... there's no better place than here to do it:clap2:



Doggy (smoking ban?)


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## jojo

owdoggy said:


> Doggy (smoking ban?)



That is a very naughty picture Doggie!!!!

Jo xxxx


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## owdoggy

jojo said:


> That is a very naughty picture Doggie!!!!
> 
> Jo xxxx


Just what I think of an across the board smoking ban.........a picture paints a thousand words etc.



Doggy


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## mrypg9

jojo;2
I often wonder who decided to make smoking the baddie said:


> Actually it was a doctor...the link betweeen smoking and cancer was discovered in the mid 1960s by a doctor who was puzzled by the number of patients he was treating for lung cancer. Research showed that the factor they all shared was ...smoking. Can't remember his name although I think he was called Dr. Christopher Ash, ironically.
> But as far as I know no-one has said that smoking actually _*causes *_cancer and other diseases....but there is strong evidence of a link.
> I think the facts should be put in front of adults who can then choose...and I would extend that to other drugs such as marijuana. There should imo be smoke-free and smokers' bars etc but restaurants should all be smoke-free.
> I smoke occasionally, usually when I've had a few drinks. And yes, alcohol is the real problem: crime, illness, violence, road traffic accidents ....all down to the demon drink. (I am writing this with a glas of ice-cold fino to hand...)
> So....give people the facts, let them choose, provide space for everyone in bars and cafes but not in areas where food is served and impose tax to cover costs to the health service.


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> This whole ban issue isnt really about smoking to me, its about eroding peoples way of life ,and freedom of choice, ultimately turning us all into robots. and I dont believe that smoking is being banned for the good of our health - I know smoking isnt good, but I think theres more to it!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


If the Government really wanted to stop people smoking, they'd ban the import and manufacture of tobacco. But they won't because the revenue generated from taxes on tobacco is enormous.
My son brought my OH two boxes of tobacco (Drum) from Gibraltar last week, cost £6 each. In the UK each box would cost over £40. Go figure
No hidden agenda, no eroding freedom of choice -you can still smoke, you just can't do it where others (passive smokers) may object -but it is about hypocrisy, imo.
The Government tells you it's bad for you but happily collects the tax revenue.


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> If the Government really wanted to stop people smoking, they'd ban the import and manufacture of tobacco. But they won't because the revenue generated from taxes on tobacco is enormous.
> My son brought my OH two boxes of tobacco (Drum) from Gibraltar last week, cost £6 each. In the UK each box would cost over £40. Go figure
> No hidden agenda, no eroding freedom of choice -you can still smoke, you just can't do it where others (passive smokers) may object -but it is about hypocrisy, imo.
> The Government tells you it's bad for you but happily collects the tax revenue.



Yes! Its like the car thing too. In the UK they tell everyone cars are bad, try to make it difficult by wacking a levy on petrol, road useage, car tax etc.... Global warming is the big money spinner IMO too. I dont doubt theres a polution issue, but I struggle with the idea that adding a Carbon tax to everything will prevent it!!! Anyway, thats all another issue! A box of 200 **** in Gibralter is 11 pounds! (and petrol in Gibraltar is 66p a litre) - someones making some money out of it all!!!!


Jo xxxx


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> A box of 200 **** in Gibralter is 11 pounds! (and petrol in Gibraltar is 66p a litre) - someones making some money out of it all!!!!
> 
> 
> Jo xxxx


If you buy your ciggies airside before you go through the customs check they will cost £6, I think. The tobacco is £11 in the groundside airport shop, £6 airside. 'Tailor-mades' must be the same.
Did you know gin is cheaper in Morrisons Gib than even airside? I paid £3.99 for a litre of Rives...


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> If you buy your ciggies airside before you go through the customs check they will cost £6, I think. The tobacco is £11 in the groundside airport shop, £6 airside. 'Tailor-mades' must be the same.
> Did you know gin is cheaper in Morrisons Gib than even airside? I paid £3.99 for a litre of Rives...



Ahh, Now, they've just started banging on about how bad alcohol is in the UK, so thats about to get a heavy heap of tax on it, I'll bet!!!

Jo xxx


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## owdoggy

jojo said:


> Ahh, Now, they've just started banging on about how bad alcohol is in the UK, so thats about to get a heavy heap of tax on it, I'll bet!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


What's next I wonder?

Ah, what the hell.........another cup of coffee ( caffiene....oooh that's bad) with a nip of Ron Miel (alcohol......nope, that'll turn me into a homicidal loony) and a ciggy .......(which will kill me but hopefullly do it before the alcohol does it's trick).

The world is going nuts but I will remain so cool you could keep a side of beef in me for a month............hopefully



Doggy


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## VFR

I wonder why those in power still allow the millions of bonfires that are the norm from Nov to Feb across Spain if passive smoking is bad for you ?

I wonder why those who champion a smoking ban ignore the Vally's / whole towns covered in smoke that would be as bad as walking (by choice) into a bar that allows smoking ?
For an example of this drive toward Ointeyent on a cold day and you can see the smoke from the fires hit the cold upper air and just sit there as it spreads for miles around.

I wonder why that there has never been a irrefutable comprehensive scientific study done to determine "if" passive smoking actually does harm ?

Its a funny old world ?


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## jojo

playamonte said:


> I wonder why those in power still allow the millions of bonfires that are the norm from Nov to Feb across Spain if passive smoking is bad for you ?
> 
> I wonder why those who champion a smoking ban ignore the Vally's / whole towns covered in smoke that would be as bad as walking (by choice) into a bar that allows smoking ?
> For an example of this drive toward Ointeyent on a cold day and you can see the smoke from the fires hit the cold upper air and just sit there as it spreads for miles around.
> 
> I wonder why that there has never been a irrefutable comprehensive scientific study done to determine "if" passive smoking actually does harm ?
> 
> Its a funny old world ?


..... or sitting in a traffic jam with your windows open, or a roadside bar terrace.... Yes, it is a funny old world!

Jo xxx


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## gus-lopez

The 100% ban will only apply to outside areas that are not enclosed, not to tables on pavements, whether shaded or not. I've been looking over the last 5 /6 weeks at how many people are actually smoking in the bars I use and, bearing in mind that a) where I live we haven't got the tourists & b ) there's virtually no ex-pats the people in the bars are 90+ % smokers. ( Bar I was in this afternoon, 22 customers ,25 people smoking. lol.+owner,wife & son. Who ,already are not allowed to smoke behind the bar.) At present I go in 2 x a day purely to read the paper , coffee & a cigarette. When I'm working then it is 4/5 times. So in the good weather I'll sit outside & if it's bad then I won't go out.
If it was enforced rigourously then yes, the bars round here would be shutting in large nos. as the Spaniards won't be doing with sitting o/s.
I agree with jo re drinking , I don't & I have a hatred of obnoxious drunks, of which I've encountered plenty, all brits.

If the gov. don't want you to smoke then I'm in full agreement, ban it, But no they are hypocrites; They want the tax, 10 billion in 2008/9,( av. cost of 20 cigs. in UK 5,85, tobacco tax is 76% then [email protected] 17,5% = 4,85 total. These same % ,near enough, apply to petrol & diesel !) whilst costs to the UK health services for smoking related illnesses were put @2,7 billion, whilst appearing to crack down on it. If they banned it completely, in the UK, then every taxpayer would have to pay another 373 pounds a yr to cover the shortfall.
Even the Uk primeminister ,in 1956? ( I think ) when the link was brought up between smoking & cancer, during a cabinet meeting where the possibility of an outright ban was discussed said, "It's not possible, how on earth would we replace the tax loss, it can't be done.":confused2:
Will the total ban here be as hypocritical as in the UK where nursing homes, prisons, offshore oil rigs??????, psyciatric wards+ others inc. the scum in the Houses of Parliament are exempt. Probably as Mr Bean smokes.
The Junta de Andalucía has already ( attack is the best form of defence :boxing applied to central gov. for a long term phase in as they say it isn't fair to all the bars & restaurants that have spent 000's complying with the existing law re; extraction, building works for seperate areas etc; will there be more job losses, probably. Still we'll have to see. I'll believe it when I see it. I'm off to watch the football& Ncis.!


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## Pesky Wesky

playamonte said:


> I wonder why those in power still allow the millions of bonfires that are the norm from Nov to Feb across Spain if passive smoking is bad for you ?
> 
> I wonder why those who champion a smoking ban ignore the Vally's / whole towns covered in smoke that would be as bad as walking (by choice) into a bar that allows smoking ?
> For an example of this drive toward Ointeyent on a cold day and you can see the smoke from the fires hit the cold upper air and just sit there as it spreads for miles around.
> 
> I wonder why that there has never been a irrefutable comprehensive scientific study done to determine "if" passive smoking actually does harm ?
> 
> Its a funny old world ?


I wonder why people think that anti smokers ignore valleys covered in smoke. :confused2:
I wonder why smokers think that anti smokers think car pollution isn't a problem?
I wonder why some smokers find it difficult to understand that non smokers prefer to breathe non smokey air:confused2: :confused2:
And as for 
*I wonder why that there has never been a irrefutable comprehensive scientific study done to determine "if" passive smoking actually does harm ?*
IMO it should be the other way round. It should be proved that smoking *doesn't* do any harm, and the same for mobile phone ariels.

It's a funny old world, isn't it:eyebrows:


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## ivorra

xabiachica said:


> I think it's ridiculous that I can't go into a bar because I *don't* smoke...


Me too.. and I promise to start going to bars when the smoking ban comes in to force and I am sure that there will be many like me prepared to make a fuss if smoking carries on. Objections to the smoke will have a lot more force when the law is on our side


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## Caz.I

xabiachica said:


> I think it's ridiculous that I can't go into a bar because I *don't* smoke
> 
> well I know I _could_, but why would I want to go in & inhale everyone else's smoke
> 
> 
> it was hard enough giving up smoking, without having other people causing damage to my lungs


Yes, I ditto that too. But not just bars, cafes - where you dont want to take babies or small children because you dont want them to choke either! (Not to mention the extra stink factor they acquire!) And there are very few if any non smoking cafes here either.

I dont like inhaling others smoke outside either but a partial ban is better than nothing. Ironically, at the moment, where possible I usually try to sit outside cafes so I can breath at least some smoke free air - as inside its like a chimney in most places. Re health issues, passive smoking etc, I believe there are medical cases which prove that it does adversely affect health. And, anyway, after being in a smoky atmosphere for even a short period of time, you just feel and smell worse!

This is one issue that Spain is way behind on IMO, that and dog poo on the pavements!

Caz.I


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## VFR

Pesky Wesky said:


> I wonder why people think that anti smokers ignore valleys covered in smoke. :confused2: *That being the case then, why have i never read on the forums about the issue ?*
> I wonder why smokers think that anti smokers think car pollution isn't a problem? *Do they ?*
> I wonder why some smokers find it difficult to understand that non smokers prefer to breathe non smokey air:confused2: :confused2: *Fair point, but my first items were a little tounge in cheek*
> And as for
> *I wonder why that there has never been a irrefutable comprehensive scientific study done to determine "if" passive smoking actually does harm ?* *To answer my own question, its because we have been told for years that it is harmful without any facts to back it up. Yes I guess it is harmful, so why no facts ?*
> IMO it should be the other way round. It should be proved that smoking *doesn't* do any harm, and the same for mobile phone ariels.
> 
> It's a funny old world, isn't it:eyebrows:


Indeed it is


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## owdoggy

It's always an emotive subject eh. On other forums it often produces reactions bordering on the fanatical and usually ends in a slanging match with the tambourine bashers insisting that all us smokers should be hung up by our thumbs and given the Edward II treatment but not here which is another reason I like this forum:clap2:

One of the joys for me (being a smoker) when I came over here was to be able to enjoy (IMO) a civilised cup of coffee i.e. coffee, cig & chinwag in my favourite bar. At the moment I have that choice but if us smokers were completely honest we would have to admit that the non smokers do not have that choice and that's unfair. 

When(if) the smoking ban comes in they can have their civilised cup of coffee (smoke-free of course) but the smoker won't have that choice anymore...... and that's unfair.

A blanket ban denies the freedom to choose and that's what I don't agree with.

But, and correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure you will) hasn't this has been tried already here when a ban was last mentioned and the bars owners kicked up so much of a fuss that they were given the choice to go smoking or non (after paying a little tax of course) so the situation we have at the moment is after a choice (of sorts) has been made but is still inherently unfair to the non-smokers because as far as I can see most of the bars decided to stick with smoking.

What's the fairest solution?...... a choice for all. How to get it?........now that's the biggy isn't it.......& I haven't a clue


Doggy


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## Pesky Wesky

owdoggy said:


> It's always an emotive subject eh. On other forums it often produces reactions bordering on the fanatical and usually ends in a slanging match with the tambourine bashers insisting that all us smokers should be hung up by our thumbs and given the Edward II treatment but not here which is another reason I like this forum:clap2:
> 
> 
> What's the fairest solution?...... a choice for all. How to get it?........now that's the biggy isn't it.......& I haven't a clue
> 
> 
> Doggy


 
Good post owdoggy.
That's about it in a nutshell for me.
PS Will be polishing up my tambourine and thumbscrews for use in other circles!! :tongue1: :lol:


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## jojo

owdoggy said:


> It's always an emotive subject eh. On other forums it often produces reactions bordering on the fanatical and usually ends in a slanging match with the tambourine bashers insisting that all us smokers should be hung up by our thumbs and given the Edward II treatment but not here which is another reason I like this forum:clap2:
> 
> Doggy


I hate it when forums/posts degenerate into slanging matches! It doesnt alter anything and it nearly always ends up with at least one member disappearing, and then you get the "trolls" come along and join in cos they love a good fight!! 

We've all got views and ultimately the only thing you can sensibly do when you have no control of the outcome (which in this case none of us have) is to agree to disagree and wait to see how it pans out!

But I agree with you doggie - there should be some kind of compromise, but I dont know how, maybe some sort of smoking permit or licence to be granted my the local ayuntamientos ?????. 

Whats that saying...."If you give people their human rights, you take away the human rights of others"..... summat like that!!??

Jo xxx


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## nigele2

owdoggy said:


> What's the fairest solution?...... a choice for all. How to get it?........now that's the biggy isn't it.......& I haven't a clue
> 
> 
> Doggy


Not sure I understand the problem here. The solution is surely obvious.

If I own a bar I will do my market research and attract my target and profitable audience. If that doesn't include you then go find another bar or open one yourself.

If there is a need then someone will meet that need - unless some idiot government (like the Spanish one) stops them. 

However I think there needs to be some honesty. In my village (UK) there are three bars. The customers pretty much are the same now as before the smoking ban (according to the landlords). In reality there are people who say they do not go to bars because of the smoke issue but many would not contribute much if anything to the profits even with a ban.

As for the smoking stopping people entering bars with young kids??? pass the ciggies someone, I want to take it up 

ps Doggy get rid of the dog please. Everytime I see him I feel hungry. He's ruining my diet!!!


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## mrypg9

Everyone has their own drug of choice. For some it's nicotine, for some alcohol and for others 'naughty' substances that some Government has ruled that adults must not partake of under penalty of the law.
For me, the first cup of coffee at breakfast, freshly brewed, hot and strong from the cafetiere is an addiction.
A lot of the 'problems' caused by smoking in public places could be avoided if smokers exercised old-fashioned good manners and courtesy for others.
We once went with friends to dinner at a well-known 'good' restaurant in Prague where smoking is permitted still. We were not happy when an American sitting at the next table lit up a vile-smelling cheroot as our food was placed before us. 
And if the Czechs ban smoking in public places, as is being discussed, I'd laugh myself silly: people still burn sulphurous soft coal and even plastic bottles. Old-fashioned smog is commonplace all over the country.
Even our dog coughed...


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## owdoggy

nigele2 said:


> ps Doggy get rid of the dog please. Everytime I see him I feel hungry. He's ruining my diet!!!


My apologies ........is this one any better? 




Doggy


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## Tallulah

There's beer in that there fridge!!


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## nigele2

Tallulah said:


> There's beer in that there fridge!!


Bottle of cava and some olives please doggy  woof woof


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## jojo

nigele2 said:


> Bottle of cava and some olives please doggy  woof woof



followed by a nice ciggie LOL - well we've gotta stay on topic :focus:

Jo xxx


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## owdoggy

nigele2 said:


> Bottle of cava and some olives please doggy  woof woof


No problem :yo:


Doggy


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## gus-lopez

If you want to sign the petition against the proposed new law you can do it here;
Tu firma importa Club Fumadores por la Tolerancia :smokin:


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## mickcarol

jojo said:


> I hate to bring this up, but on the news here earlier they were saying that the smoking ban is going to happen in Spain in the second half of this year - its probably going to be the same kind of ban as in the UK - altho they're looking at the 100% ban they have in Ireland!!
> 
> I'm not sure that it'll go down too well in Spain as the Spanish seem to be a defiant bunch in the main!!??? It'll be interesting to see what happens. There are predictions of mass bar closures - altho most bars have outside terraces which will only be affected if they go for the 100% ban?!
> 
> Any thoughts??
> 
> Jo xxx


I stopped smoking 45 years ago, but, I believe that people should have freedom of choice. My favourite bar that I use all the time is a smoking one, and I choose to use it. I don´t believe for one minute that they will force the Spanish to stop smoking in a bar, and nor should they.


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## Goatherd

Couldn't disagree more...... 
I haven't smoked for 8 years, and never will again, but there is no way I would choose to be in a smoky bar making your clothes stink and spoiling the taste of food etc. The smell is repulsive to me now and I hate being near smokers......
If people wish to smoke, of course that is their choice as it used to be mine, but why should non smokers have to suffer the carcinagenic effect of secondhand smoke... it is simply very selfish.
They may not have consideration for their health but I value mine....


----------



## ivorra

mickcarol said:


> I stopped smoking 45 years ago, but, I believe that people should have freedom of choice....


If I enter a room where there is tobacco smoke my sinuses block within a few minutes and very soon my eyes are affected also. My only choice is to suffer in this way or avoid such places. And that is not any kind of freedom. The majority of the population (even in Spain) do not smoke and it is only fair that their right to enjoy socialising in bars and restaurants free from tobacco smoke is recognised.
There is another much more important issue though and that is how to help youngsters avoid becoming hooked on tobacco - especially the children who are raised in households where the adults smoke. Any move by the authorites which will help make smoking less attractive and less socially acceptable and therefore help counter the influence of the tobacco companies on youngsters is a step forward.


----------



## mickcarol

Reply to Goatherd. This is exactly my point. If you dont want your clothes to smell, then OK, go into a nonsmoking bar. Nobody forces you to go into a smoking one!!
It is your choice and so it should be for those that want to smoke.


----------



## mickcarol

ivorra said:


> If I enter a room where there is tobacco smoke my sinuses block within a few minutes and very soon my eyes are affected also. My only choice is to suffer in this way or avoid such places. And that is not any kind of freedom. The majority of the population (even in Spain) do not smoke and it is only fair that their right to enjoy socialising in bars and restaurants free from tobacco smoke is recognised.
> There is another much more important issue though and that is how to help youngsters avoid becoming hooked on tobacco - especially the children who are raised in households where the adults smoke. Any move by the authorites which will help make smoking less attractive and less socially acceptable and therefore help counter the influence of the tobacco companies on youngsters is a step forward.


There is also another important issue. If you take away the smoking from youngsters, (which is their choice if they smoke) will they then want to try something else.i.e. Drugs? I would rather to see a youngster smoking than to see them taking drugs.


----------



## nigele2

mickcarol said:


> I would rather to see a youngster smoking than to see them taking drugs.


How sad that you have given up all hope  I'm sure you can think of a more positive solution to the drug problem if you try 

Sorry it is tough to say something on a foro and leave it not open to misinterpretation but your comment seems rather defeatist.

What I don't understand is if all you ex smokers want smoke free bars, and if you are willing to spend so much money in them, why have the marketing men not picked you up as a target market? And why is it you ex smokers, as opposed to non smokers, have such an issue?  

Perhaps the solution is in our hands


----------



## jojo

mickcarol said:


> There is also another important issue. If you take away the smoking from youngsters, (which is their choice if they smoke) will they then want to try something else.i.e. Drugs? I would rather to see a youngster smoking than to see them taking drugs.



I totally agree! Having had 5 children I know that they will always want to try something they shouldnt, especially if they're bright and inquisitive, so far mine have all taken heed of my warnings that once you start its difficult to stop!! 

Jo xxx


----------



## mickcarol

nigele2 said:


> How sad that you have given up all hope  I'm sure you can think of a more positive solution to the drug problem if you try
> 
> Sorry it is tough to say something on a foro and leave it not open to misinterpretation but your comment seems rather defeatist.
> 
> What I don't understand is if all you ex smokers want smoke free bars, and if you are willing to spend so much money in them, why have the marketing men not picked you up as a target market? And why is it you ex smokers, as opposed to non smokers, have such an issue?
> 
> Perhaps the solution is in our hands


I dont think that you can have read my first post on this subject. I AM a ex smoker since 45 years, but, I use a smokers bar (by choice) and I think it should be up to the individual to choose.


----------



## nigele2

mickcarol said:


> I dont think that you can have read my first post on this subject. I AM a ex smoker since 45 years, but, I use a smokers bar (by choice) and I think it should be up to the individual to choose.


Apologies and fair comment. 
My comments were not directed specifically at yourself although your point about drugs seemed to hit the nail on the head. 

My issue with many comments on this thread is related to those ignoring free market forces. If there are no bars in your area interested in your custom based on your requirement for a smoke free environment perhaps you should realise that you are in a minority. If you think there are thousands of like minded souls as yourself then open a smoke free bar.

I remember last autumn in my local bar seeing two mothers enter the terrace - not a large area. Two prams and four other kids running around. They ordered one coffee and one orange juice. There were there for an hour. 

It's not easy running a bar

Back to the drugs - obviously the young need protection. They are at various stages of a learning process and many have parents with no sense of responsibility or qualifications to raise kids. [Seems incredible that the most difficult job in the world needs no qualifications ] But the thought of giving kids access to tobacco in the hope they avoid heroin


----------



## mickcarol

nigele2 said:


> Apologies and fair comment.
> My comments were not directed specifically at yourself although your point about drugs seemed to hit the nail on the head.
> 
> My issue with many comments on this thread is related to those ignoring free market forces. If there are no bars in your area interested in your custom based on your requirement for a smoke free environment perhaps you should realise that you are in a minority. If you think there are thousands of like minded souls as yourself then open a smoke free bar.
> 
> I remember last autumn in my local bar seeing two mothers enter the terrace - not a large area. Two prams and four other kids running around. They ordered one coffee and one orange juice. There were there for an hour.
> 
> It's not easy running a bar
> 
> Back to the drugs - obviously the young need protection. They are at various stages of a learning process and many have parents with no sense of responsibility or qualifications to raise kids. [Seems incredible that the most difficult job in the world needs no qualifications ] But the thought of giving kids access to tobacco in the hope they avoid heroin


Thanks for your apology, but, it wasn´t necessary. We are just making our points of view. I certainly do not condone youngsters smoking. I think it is a filthy habit (and I used to smoke 60 A DAY !!!!) so, who am I to disapprove. What I was suggesting was, if you try to say to teenagers today, "we will ban you from smoking", they will rebel, and POSSIBLY go on to something worse (like drugs).
They have been trying for years to find a solution to the drug problem, and have come up with nothing. All I am saying is, I would rather see a teenager with a cigarette in his/her mouth than to see them taking drugs.


----------



## Goatherd

*Maybe spittoons next?*



mickcarol said:


> Reply to Goatherd. This is exactly my point. If you dont want your clothes to smell, then OK, go into a nonsmoking bar. Nobody forces you to go into a smoking one!!
> It is your choice and so it should be for those that want to smoke.


That's all very well if there is an alternative bar...... I most certainly would, but why should I be excluded because of the selfish attitudes of a few....?
If you wish to persue your disgusting habit why shouldn't you do it away from others..... you'll be wanting spittoons next.... and sawdust on the floor...:clap2:


----------



## mickcarol

Goatherd said:


> That's all very well if there is an alternative bar...... I most certainly would, but why should I be excluded because of the selfish attitudes of a few....?
> If you wish to persue your disgusting habit why shouldn't you do it away from others..... you'll be wanting spittoons next.... and sawdust on the floor...:clap2:


You obviously didn´t read my first post. I AM a nonsmoker for the past 45 years !!!
You say why should YOU be excluded from the bar being a nonsmoker. What about ALL the smokers being excluded just because you want to go in it. You have to realize that a lot of the Spanish smoke, and, if they are banned from the bars, it will not be long before bar owners will go out of business. Then you will not have any bar at all to go into. As it is now, there are some bars NONsmoking and some smoking, therefore giving you a choice of where you drink. As for the spittoons, that is very petty. Spaniards have been heavy smokers for decades, and after living here in Spain for nearly 30 years, I have yet to see a spittoon in a bar !!!


----------



## jojo

mickcarol said:


> You obviously didn´t read my first post. I AM a nonsmoker for the past 45 years !!!
> You say why should YOU be excluded from the bar being a nonsmoker. What about ALL the smokers being excluded just because you want to go in it. You have to realize that a lot of the Spanish smoke, and, if they are banned from the bars, it will not be long before bar owners will go out of business. Then you will not have any bar at all to go into. As it is now, there are some bars NONsmoking and some smoking, therefore giving you a choice of where you drink. As for the spittoons, that is very petty. Spaniards have been heavy smokers for decades, and after living here in Spain for nearly 30 years, I have yet to see a spittoon in a bar !!!



Spittoons are for chewing tobacco arent they??? Maybe we should start chewing and spitting instead of smoking LOL!!! 

I think there should be a choice smoking bar or a non smoking bar! simple! In any case, most of the time in Spain people sit outside anyway so the smoke isnt a problem. Decent air con can remove the smell of smoke with no problem.

Whats is interesting and its always interested me is that Spain and France have the highest proportion of smokers - much higher than the UK, yet those two countries have the lowest incident of smoking related deaths!

Jo xxx


----------



## mickcarol

jojo said:


> Spittoons are for chewing tobacco arent they??? Maybe we should start chewing and spitting instead of smoking LOL!!!
> 
> I think there should be a choice smoking bar or a non smoking bar! simple! In any case, most of the time in Spain people sit outside anyway so the smoke isnt a problem. Decent air con can remove the smell of smoke with no problem.
> 
> Whats is interesting and its always interested me is that Spain and France have the highest proportion of smokers - much higher than the UK, yet those two countries have the lowest incident of smoking related deaths!
> 
> Jo xxx


Couldn´t have put it better myself !


----------



## nigele2

jojo said:


> Whats is interesting and its always interested me is that Spain and France have the highest proportion of smokers - much higher than the UK, yet those two countries have the lowest incident of smoking related deaths!
> 
> Jo xxx


I love stats 

Seriously as part of my job I was testing statistical software and noticed something odd (according to ehnheart.org) in the league table of European death rates due to smoking in the year 2000:

Men between 35 and 69 the UK are 9th while Spain is 15th and France is 16th
Women between 35 and 69 the UK are 29th while France is 8th and Spain 6th.

Low by the way is good.

I've observed that often in the UK that females (esp. the young) are smoking more and more.

Weird


----------



## jojo

nigele2 said:


> I love stats
> 
> Seriously as part of my job I was testing statistical software and noticed something odd (according to ehnheart.org) in the league table of European death rates due to smoking in the year 2000:
> 
> Men between 35 and 69 the UK are 9th while Spain is 15th and France is 16th
> Women between 35 and 69 the UK are 29th while France is 8th and Spain 6th.
> 
> Low by the way is good.
> 
> I've observed that often in the UK that females (esp. the young) are smoking more and more.
> 
> Weird


I used to do some statistic work for a Pharmaceutical company - well actually we werent ever allowed to mention that cos the company was supposed to be independent - hhhmmm??!!! Funny how the stats always favoured their specific drugs and treatment

Jo xxx


----------



## Caz.I

mickcarol said:


> You obviously didn´t read my first post. I AM a nonsmoker for the past 45 years !!!
> You say why should YOU be excluded from the bar being a nonsmoker. What about ALL the smokers being excluded just because you want to go in it. You have to realize that a lot of the Spanish smoke, and, if they are banned from the bars, it will not be long before bar owners will go out of business. Then you will not have any bar at all to go into. As it is now, there are some bars NONsmoking and some smoking, therefore giving you a choice of where you drink. As for the spittoons, that is very petty. Spaniards have been heavy smokers for decades, and after living here in Spain for nearly 30 years, I have yet to see a spittoon in a bar !!!


Where are these mythical non-smoking bars? Answers, please on the back of a postage stamp - cos no doubt you could fit them all on there. There is no choice for non smokers who want a drink in a bar - other than choke or smoke!

Segregation of smoking bars and non-smoking bars is not really ideal either if you have friends who smoke. And no, it isnt fair for non smokers to inhale other people's smoke in a confined atmosphere, when they have made the choice to be non smokers. Breathing is a pretty basic human right - abusing your body and abusing others bodies isn't.

All bars closing down because they are all forced to be non smoking! I dont think so! That's just silly. Faced with not being able to have a cigarette, they will probably be glad to at least have a drink. However, IMO would be fairer to all if the bars can have the option of being smoking after 8pm and during the day the smokers could smoke outside - at least we usually have the weather for it here. That way you could encompass both "needs".

In Spain, it's further complicated by the fact that most bars operate as cafes or vice versa, due to the licensing laws. So whilst I think most people might be understanding towards people having a cigarette when they have a drink at night,
its unrealistic to expect non smokers to be tolerant of smoky atmospheres day and night.

There are more people who smoke here than in the UK - at the moment - things _are_ changing, albeit at a snail's pace. When my niece and nephew were born 6 years ago other families' relatives were smoking inside the maternity hospital! Now many public places are non smoking and although quite a few people do smoke still, there are less and less of them. It may take longer for people to break the habit here but it will happen in time. While an outright ban will probably cause a backlash, there needs to be some kind of serious attempts to help people stop, as well as a partial ban of some sort. It might be hard for smokers, but its called "tough love". When they started to ban it in public places in the UK, it helped me begin to think about stopping. Otherwise I probably wouldnt have at that point. Though it did take a long time to do it, I dont regret it for a moment.

Caz.I


----------



## jojo

Caz.I said:


> Where are these mythical non-smoking bars? Answers, please on the back of a postage stamp - cos no doubt you could fit them all on there. There is no choice for non smokers who want a drink in a bar - other than choke or smoke!


I could be wrong, but surely its supply and demand - if there was enough of an outcry for non smoking bars there would be lots of very successful non smoking bars??????? I knew of one and -. yes it closed down recently. But I dont know the reason - it could be anything in this day and age, altho the bar just down the road from it, a "smoking" bar is alive and kicking nicely

Jo xxx


----------



## nigele2

SPOT ON jojo  



Caz.I said:


> Where are these mythical non-smoking bars?


Restaurante
McDonald´s
Po. Marítimo Playa de Santa Eulalia; Parcela 11 Ver plano
Fuengirola, Málaga

Cafetería Momo
C/ Marbella Málaga, 8 Ver plano
29640 Fuengirola, Málaga
952197321

Restaurante Speedy Pizza
Avda. de Mijas, 34 Ver plano
Fuengirola, Málaga
952580288

Sorry I tried to get them on the back of a postage stamp but they wouldn't fit


----------



## jojo

Most restaurants that are geared towards families with children etc are non smoking - by law I beleive

Jo xxx


----------



## gus-lopez

Well we've also got loads of bars & restaurants that are non-smoking. Obviously the situation is different in tourist areas as the Spaniards here have their 1st drink @ 6 am. & don't eat till 10 or 11am. The problem you have here already, is that the in the non-smoking bars / restaurants people who wish to smoke are seated outside leading to the non-smokers complaining , "why can't we sit out in the sun ?" You can't win. Anyway the effects of benzene in petrol is far more carcinogenic when you breath in whilst filling your car than the trace elements in second-hand smoke.


----------



## Caz.I

nigele2 said:


> SPOT ON jojo
> 
> 
> 
> Restaurante
> McDonald´s
> Po. Marítimo Playa de Santa Eulalia; Parcela 11 Ver plano
> Fuengirola, Málaga
> 
> Cafetería Momo
> C/ Marbella Málaga, 8 Ver plano
> 29640 Fuengirola, Málaga
> 952197321
> 
> Restaurante Speedy Pizza
> Avda. de Mijas, 34 Ver plano
> Fuengirola, Málaga
> 952580288
> 
> Sorry I tried to get them on the back of a postage stamp but they wouldn't fit


Actually, two out of three of those are restaurants rather than bars. (And McDonalds on the Paseo has in fact closed down now anyway.) So that leaves one, (and is it a cafe/bar which opens in the evening?) which probably _would_ fit on a postage stamp


----------



## jojo

Ok, so if I were to play devils advocate for a mo. I hate the smell of coffee - I hate the taste, the look, everything about it - I tolerate it in my house, but it makes me feel sick. I also hate the smell of alcohol and the effect it has on people who drink too much. I guess I wouldnt get much sympathy if I were to ask for a coffee and/or alcohol ban in all bars - I'm not keen on the smell of car fumes either, but I doubt they'd ban those LOL ... and then there are those with nut allergies. Is it fair to eat those in public places - just in case....

Personally I dont care about the smoking ban as such, what I care about is the erosion of freedom of choice for everyone! So you dont like ****, then find a non smoking bar, or one with good aircon or sit outside or , dont like the smell of coffee then dont go to a coffee bar, dont like alcohol then stay away from boozers

In a perfect world, cigarettes wouldnt have been invented - nor coffee or alcohol, but they're here. I doubt smokers deliberately try to blow their smoke over people - unlike drinkers who get on my nerves by constantly trying to make me "just have one - go on, one wont hurt" Coffees a lost cause cos its everywhere.

My point is, theres always something that will affect somebody. As I've said before in a previous post "giving one person their human rights, takes another persons away" and that aint fair IMO!

Sorry I'm rambling - its a boring sunday afternoon! .... and all that is why I dont go into bars much anyway lol

Jo xxxx


----------



## Caz.I

jojo said:


> I could be wrong, but surely its supply and demand - if there was enough of an outcry for non smoking bars there would be lots of very successful non smoking bars??????? I knew of one and -. yes it closed down recently. But I dont know the reason - it could be anything in this day and age, altho the bar just down the road from it, a "smoking" bar is alive and kicking nicely
> 
> Jo xxx


There isnt an outcry because the majority of people here just accept things passively (smoke for one ). Most people tend to feel powerless to change things in this respect so put up with it quietly. I think people tend to go to bars over here where they have some kind of social connection so obviously they will have connections with people who are both smokers and non smokers and therefore go to smoking bars. So I dont think the separate bars idea works for that reason for one. Secondly, it wont work for financial reasons, as smokers wont tolerate non smoking bars but non smokers will tolerate smoking bars (reluctantly). 

Therefore, unless smokers can accept that non smokers do have some kind of right to a shared bar where they can have a drink and breathe without inhaling smoke, non smokers will continue to suffer in these type of places. Clearly, the majority of smokers will never accept this voluntarily so that is why there needs to be some kind of legislation, even if its a partial ban of some sort, to achieve fairness for both.

If we leave everything simply to supply and demand, (particularly when it involves one group's behaviour adversely affecting another) without trying to improve and change things for those who are suffering, then nothing will change and we will never advance as a society. Sometimes, legislation is necessary to start the process of advance, even if 100% of the public arent quite there yet and may still choose to smoke in their own private space. 

I think trying to improve our health so that our children grow up in a culture where smoking is not generally considered the norm, is actually a positive thing. And arguing about the pollution of cars is just an attempt to fudge the issue. Its not as if non smokers are all applauding that type of pollution either!

Caz.I


----------



## jojo

Caz.I said:


> There isnt an outcry because the majority of people here just accept things passively (smoke for one ). Most people tend to feel powerless to change things in this respect so put up with it quietly. I think people tend to go to bars over here where they have some kind of social connection so obviously they will have connections with people who are both smokers and non smokers and therefore go to smoking bars. So I dont think the separate bars idea works for that reason for one. Secondly, it wont work for financial reasons, as smokers wont tolerate non smoking bars but non smokers will tolerate smoking bars (reluctantly).
> 
> Therefore, unless smokers can accept that non smokers do have some kind of right to a shared bar where they can have a drink and breathe without inhaling smoke, non smokers will continue to suffer in these type of places. Clearly, the majority of smokers will never accept this voluntarily so that is why there needs to be some kind of legislation, even if its a partial ban of some sort, to achieve fairness for both.
> 
> If we leave everything simply to supply and demand, (particularly when it involves one group's behaviour adversely affecting another) without trying to improve and change things for those who are suffering, then nothing will change and we will never advance as a society. Sometimes, legislation is necessary to start the process of advance, even if 100% of the public arent quite there yet and may still choose to smoke in their own private space.
> 
> I think trying to improve our health so that our children grow up in a culture where smoking is not generally considered the norm, is actually a positive thing. And arguing about the pollution of cars is just an attempt to fudge the issue. Its not as if non smokers are all applauding that type of pollution either!
> 
> Caz.I


Now, in my perfect world, I would replace the words "smoking, smokers" etc in your post with the words "alcohol"! Now, yes I may smoke, but my real pet hate is alcohol. Historically its been a problem in my family and having seen the damage it can do, not only to the drinker, but the family, the whole house.... I cannot believe that so much fuss is being made about cigarettes and not alcohol instead/as well - but then everybody seems to love a drink, so that wouldnt be politically correct or a vote winner I guess

Thats my view!

Jo xxx


----------



## Caz.I

jojo said:


> Ok, so if I were to play devils advocate for a mo. I hate the smell of coffee - I hate the taste, the look, everything about it - I tolerate it in my house, but it makes me feel sick. I also hate the smell of alcohol and the effect it has on people who drink too much. I guess I wouldnt get much sympathy if I were to ask for a coffee and/or alcohol ban in all bars - I'm not keen on the smell of car fumes either, but I doubt they'd ban those LOL ... and then there are those with nut allergies. Is it fair to eat those in public places - just in case....
> 
> Personally I dont care about the smoking ban as such, what I care about is the erosion of freedom of choice for everyone! So you dont like ****, then find a non smoking bar, or one with good aircon or sit outside or , dont like the smell of coffee then dont go to a coffee bar, dont like alcohol then stay away from boozers
> 
> In a perfect world, cigarettes wouldnt have been invented - nor coffee or alcohol, but they're here. I doubt smokers deliberately try to blow their smoke over people - unlike drinkers who get on my nerves by constantly trying to make me "just have one - go on, one wont hurt" Coffees a lost cause cos its everywhere.
> 
> My point is, theres always something that will affect somebody. As I've said before in a previous post "giving one person their human rights, takes another persons away" and that aint fair IMO!
> 
> Sorry I'm rambling - its a boring sunday afternoon! .... and all that is why I dont go into bars much anyway lol
> 
> Jo xxxx


Yes Jo but consuming coffee, nuts, alcohol, chocolate per se just dont affect others in such a direct, fundamental way. Breathing is so fundamental to life that you just cannot equate these other addictions to the effects of smoke on someones lungs. The erosion of choice, is the erosion of choice for non smokers, the erosion of the choice to breathe healthy air. Life, in other words.
Like I said, no one is in favour of pollution either for the same reasons so bringing it up is just an attempt to fudge the issue.

And as I said, its not just bars but cafes too. If I want a coffee I cant avoid the smoke in cafes. I dont have freedom of choice, do I? Smokers can smoke outside so they have their choice. Saying dont go into cafes is not a choice, its exclusion, and when something like this is being protected - smokers rights - above the right to health, its a kind of madness. I totally agree with human rights but rights with responsibility. So you have freedom but with responsibility - you can smoke as long as it doesnt deny others their rights to breathe.

Caz.I


----------



## Caz.I

jojo said:


> Most restaurants that are geared towards families with children etc are non smoking - by law I beleive
> 
> Jo xxx


I am not sure that that law is being upheld then! And we were talking mainly about bars...


----------



## Caz.I

jojo said:


> Now, in my perfect world, I would replace the words "smoking, smokers" etc in your post with the words "alcohol"! Now, yes I may smoke, but my real pet hate is alcohol. Historically its been a problem in my family and having seen the damage it can do, not only to the drinker, but the family, the whole house.... I cannot believe that so much fuss is being made about cigarettes and not alcohol instead/as well - but then everybody seems to love a drink, so that wouldnt be politically correct or a vote winner I guess
> 
> Thats my view!
> 
> Jo xxx


I agree alcohol is a huge problem too, especially on the CDS with a lot of expats. But i think it is possible to drink responsibly without affecting other people's health. Which is why I dont think you can equate it with cigarettes as far as banning it in public places goes. Though to change the pub culture, there definitely needs to be a change in accepting binge drinking as acceptable behaviour. Interesting that Spanish people seem less inclined to go out purely for the purpose of getting so drunk they cant walk, whereas too many Brits do.

Clearly, not everyone does drink responsibly, obviously, and some people get just as addicted to it too and it can have equally devastating effects on people's lives. I know a lot of people affected by various addictions in one way or another. Addiction in general I think is a big problem here, and a lot of people come to this part of Spain, with one kind of addiction which they are trying to escape from. And it never works, of course, unless they confront the addiction.

The long term solution is overcoming addictions whether cigarettes, alcohol, drugs or chocolate but completely freeing ourselves from addiction in society is a mammoth task and will take centuries, probably. But people are still free to indulge their addictions privately and if they dont harm others, I certainly dont have a problem with it. As someone said earlier in the thread a lot of it comes down to consideration for others. The problem is though that even though smokers dont usually try to blow smoke in people's faces, its just impossible to stop it from entering your lungs in these places. And that creates the health risk.
Got to go now, otherwise will never get anything done today at all.
Caz.I


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Caz.I said:


> I agree alcohol is a huge problem too, especially on the CDS with a lot of expats. But i think it is possible to drink responsibly without affecting other people's health. Which is why I dont think you can equate it with cigarettes
> Caz.I


Drinking can be a big problem too, and if someone has a drink problem of course it effects the people around them, but not in the same way that smoke can. The alcohol doesn't get into your body if you don't want it too, but smoke does.
To me it seems crazy that you have to protest, defend your point of view, argue just to be able to *breathe clean air*. Surely it should be the other way round? 
And don't start on about cars, pollution, hair spray, plastic bags or anything else you want to moan about . They are not comparable. Cars for example; if we all stopped using cars or petrol the world economy would collapse. Maybe that's not such a bad idea, but let's not compare it to smoking and whether it effects health, pulleassse!!!!!!!!


----------



## gus-lopez

:deadhorse:


----------



## jojo

I've heard a rumour that the smoking ban will take effect from 22nd June!!!! It'll be interesting to see what happens

Jo xxx


----------



## jimenato

We have a friend from England staying with us and he had to be persuaded to smoke in the bar - he kept getting up and going outside even though there were other people smoking. We don't smoke and he didn't want to upset us by smoking near us. He wouldn't have thought that way 3 years ago. The English smoking ban has definitely changed attitudes.


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> I've heard a rumour that the smoking ban will take effect from 22nd June!!!! It'll be interesting to see what happens
> 
> Jo xxx


Probably the same as in other places where a smoking ban has been imposed. 
People comply with the law and gradually forget that there ever was a time when you could smoke freely in public places.
One side effect, at least as I've witnessed it in non-smoking Glasgow, is that the streets are littered with dog-ends.
And if a smoking ban has been successful in Glasgow, it will be successful anywhere.....
(No offence intended, Caz!)


----------



## jojo

I've resurrected this thread cos I've now heard another rumour that the smoking ban has been shelved for another year (not to happen until 2011 at the earliest?)???? Due to apparently huge public and business objections???? Does anyone else know anything??

Jo xxx


----------



## gus-lopez

jojo said:


> I've resurrected this thread cos I've now heard another rumour that the smoking ban has been shelved for another year (not to happen until 2011 at the earliest?)???? Due to apparently huge public and business objections???? Does anyone else know anything??
> 
> Jo xxx


Yes it was in the papers yesterday that they are considering a years grace but apparently even with or without that it doesn't appear that it will be made law before the summer break.
Possible year grace on smoking ban in Spanish bars


----------



## gus-lopez

Actually that's just reminded me that every bar that I've been in recently has a petition for signing against the proposed new law.


----------



## jojo

I was talking to a (spanish) bar owner earlier (in Spangish lol!!) and I was asking her what she thought of it the smoking ban. She said its not happening until next year, maybe not then and it will not happen in her bar ever!!!!!!

Jo xxx


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## jimenato

jojo said:


> I was talking to a (spanish) bar owner earlier (in Spangish lol!!) and I was asking her what she thought of it the smoking ban. She said its not happening until next year, maybe not then and it will not happen in her bar ever!!!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


If it happens, it will happen in her bar whatever she says. It will be the bar owner who gets fined if they allow smoking in their bar and are anonymously reported. She wont take the risk - at least not more than once.


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## jimenato

We'll see - sometime.


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## jojo

All I know is if they take the ban as seriously as they do riding motorcycles without crash helmets, wearing seat belts, using mobiles while driving, moving closed road barricades (seen today cos they didnt wanna go around the diversion!), driving down one way streets the wrong way.............. then its really not gonna be a very noticeable ban! 

Jo xxx


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## jojo

SteveHall said:


> ¡Exactamente, Jojo! ¡¡ Esto es España!!
> 
> ...you forget the obligatory double-parking on T-junctions and zebra crossings.


.......... and roundabouts!!!

Jo xxx


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## jojo

........ Thats what I love about Spain and the Spanish people, they will not cower and be bossed about - certainly not by some bloke in an office in Brussels! !! LOL

Jo xxxx


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## jojo

SteveHall said:


> Not sure about the roundabouts. They are usually reserved for the ladies of a certain moral persuasion.
> 
> In Torrevieja on the Avda Cortes Valencianas there would appear to be a surfeit of roundabouts. These are not sponsored by some altruistic burgher or a property company trying to bribe the council. The rumour going around is that they were specially commissioned by the local Hungarian and Bulgarian pumps so that the girls had more manors to work!


The "ladies" in our area tend to collect on the poligono. They terrify my 15yo son, everytime we drive past them he ducks down in the car and demands I lock the doors !!!?? I'm not really too sure what he thinks is gonna happen :juggle: Stupid boy lolol

Jo xxxx


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## dunmovin

jojo said:


> The "ladies" in our area tend to collect on the poligono. They terrify my 15yo son, everytime we drive past them he ducks down in the car and demands I lock the doors !!!?? I'm not really too sure what he thinks is gonna happen :juggle: Stupid boy lolol
> 
> Jo xxxx


this must be a coastal thing........ the only thing I see at roundabouts here is rusting iron sculptures, which are supposed to rust adding to their character..whatever that means..... or moors and christians mozaics. Having said that there is only 7 roundabouts in the town.... which could lead to congestion


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## Pesky Wesky

jojo said:


> All I know is if they take the ban as seriously as they do riding motorcycles without crash helmets, wearing seat belts, using mobiles while driving, moving closed road barricades (seen today cos they didnt wanna go around the diversion!), driving down one way streets the wrong way.............. then its really not gonna be a very noticeable ban!
> 
> Jo xxx


Oh ye of little faith!
Sooner or later the ban will come and like all of these rules and regulations a few will fight against and claim they've been smoking for seven hundred years and nothing ever happened to them!! But in the end it will stick and the vast majority will follow the laws just as they do in all the other European countries. And Spain will have to go down this road because it a member of the EU (and it's not the UK which seems to have a special membership card)
I was here when the seat belt law came in, when smoking was banned in the metro, smoking was banned in workplaces etc etc. For all that people say the Spanish don't follow these rules, the vast majority *do*. It takes a long time, but they get there in the end. At least that's what I see here in the modern metripolis of Madrid. Perhaps it's different in the sleepy south. 

As for bars losing business, what a load of crap!!


----------



## jimenato

Pesky Wesky said:


> Oh ye of little faith!
> Sooner or later the ban will come and like all of these rules and regulations a few will fight against and claim they've been smoking for seven hundred years and nothing ever happened to them!! But in the end it will stick and the vast majority will follow the laws just as they do in all the other European countries. And Spain will have to go down this road because it a member of the EU (and it's not the UK which seems to have a special membership card)
> I was here when the seat belt law came in, when smoking was banned in the metro, smoking was banned in workplaces etc etc. For all that people say the Spanish don't follow these rules, the vast majority *do*. It takes a long time, but they get there in the end. At least that's what I see here in the modern metripolis of Madrid. Perhaps it's different in the sleepy south.
> 
> As for bars losing business, what a load of crap!!


I didn't know smoking bans had anything to do with the EU. Isn't that just another "Big Bad EU" fallacy? I thought each individual national government was voting for it.


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## Pesky Wesky

jimenato said:


> I didn't know smoking bans had anything to do with the EU. Isn't that just another "Big Bad EU" fallacy? I thought each individual national government was voting for it.


Of course. I was referring to peer pressure in the EU. If one country does it ,the others will usually follow sooner or later like the wearing of seatbelts, some kind of points system for driving infractions etc


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## gus-lopez

jimenato said:


> I didn't know smoking bans had anything to do with the EU. Isn't that just another "Big Bad EU" fallacy? I thought each individual national government was voting for it.


No, it's EC regulations that are implemented by the respective governments, & it's the EC in, this case, that is putting pressure on the Spanish gov. to toughen up there regulations . Personally I think it is discrimination & there should be seperate bars /restaurants for smokers/non-smokers. 
Personally I will never stop in a bar where I can't smoke.


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## jojo

gus-lopez said:


> No, it's EC regulations that are implemented by the respective governments, & it's the EC in, this case, that is putting pressure on the Spanish gov. to toughen up there regulations . Personally I think it is discrimination & there should be seperate bars /restaurants for smokers/non-smokers.
> Personally I will never stop in a bar where I can't smoke.


I personally dont care either way, however, I agree with it being discriminatory! Separate bars for smokers/non smokers! I've never been in favour of any government dictating in this fashion - as for the health implications, well ban smoking altogether then, if its so bad (lets face it less people smoke now than they did 50 years ago and there is still a huge rise in the so called "smoking related deaths"!) but take alcohol with it cos thats actually a far more dangerous and anti social drug IMO!!! So ban both **** and booze in bars and lets be all be pink and healthy 

Jo xxx


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## nigele2

jojo said:


> and lets be all be pink and healthy Jo xxx


pink, pink  

If nothing else that would be discrimination against hairy men


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## Pesky Wesky

nigele2 said:


> pink, pink
> 
> If nothing else that would be discrimination against hairy men


Get that chemical sun tan lotion out!!


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## jojo

"pink and healthy" was an expression my late mother used to use LOL Sorry, you know what I mean!!!

Jo xxx


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## jimenato

gus-lopez said:


> No, it's EC regulations that are implemented by the respective governments, & it's the EC in, this case, that is putting pressure on the Spanish gov. to toughen up there regulations . Personally I think it is discrimination & there should be seperate bars /restaurants for smokers/non-smokers.
> Personally I will never stop in a bar where I can't smoke.


All I can find is a resolution back in 1989

Smoking policies : Smoking policies - EU policies and strategies - EUphact



> a Resolution on banning smoking in public places. Since the adoption of the resolution in 1989, Member States’ governments have developed their own specific action to implement this resolution, and have done so at their own pace.


It's not binding in any way - certainly not a regulation. I still think it's just the "Big Bad EU" fallacy but if there is a more recent regulation or, more likely, directive then I'll admit I'm wrong.

Incidentally, even though I live full time in Spain, I gave up smoking because of the English smoking ban - chucked my smokes in the bin at Malaga airport. I was going back to England for Christmas and decided that as I was going to be miserable anyway I might just as well be very miserable. I was! That was more than two years ago and it was well worth it and really quite easy. 

I for one would welcome a smoking ban here.


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## mickybob

Speaking as a smoker, I actualy agree with the smoking ban. Ireland was I think the first to implement it in Europe. At first it was a pain going out in the yard to have a cigar. But, I got used to it. Now some of the pubs have a covered shelter you can sit in. Even I suffered the smog in the days that we could smoke in the pub, and had to go outside for a bit of fresh air. I now enjoy a pint in a NOT smog filled area, and can go and sit in some degree of comfort and have my cigar and not anoy people. Mind you, I look forward to the lockin where the ash trays come out and we continue drinking.


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## jimenato

mickybob said:


> Speaking as a smoker, I actualy agree with the smoking ban. Ireland was I think the first to implement it in Europe. At first it was a pain going out in the yard to have a cigar. But, I got used to it. Now some of the pubs have a covered shelter you can sit in. Even I suffered the smog in the days that we could smoke in the pub, and had to go outside for a bit of fresh air. I now enjoy a pint in a NOT smog filled area, and can go and sit in some degree of comfort and have my cigar and not anoy people. Mind you, I look forward to the lockin where the ash trays come out and we continue drinking.


And let's face it it'll be much easier to be a smoker in Spain rather than Ireland or England as so much of the drinking and socialising takes place outside anyway.


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## dunmovin

How about this for a suggestion, if you want your favourite bar/cafe to be a non smoking place, simply ask the owner if he/she would remove all the ashtrays and put up no smoking signs.... if they do you have your smoke free cafe/bar. What is more likely to happen, is that they will tell you that they cater for all of their customers and not just the ones who object to smokers. In reality, it's their business, their property and they will tell you that they will run it the way they want to.


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## jojo

dunmovin said:


> How about this for a suggestion, if you want your favourite bar/cafe to be a non smoking place, simply ask the owner if he/she would remove all the ashtrays and put up no smoking signs.... if they do you have your smoke free cafe/bar. What is more likely to happen, is that they will tell you that they cater for all of their customers and not just the ones who object to smokers. In reality, it's their business, their property and they will tell you that they will run it the way they want to.



I agree 100% its their business and they should be allowed to run it as they see fit! However, the law may say otherwise???! Thats what I disagree with! Let the owners and their punters choose. 

Jo xxx


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## dunmovin

jojo said:


> I agree 100% its their business and they should be allowed to run it as they see fit! However, the law may say otherwise???! Thats what I disagree with! Let the owners and their punters choose.
> 
> Jo xxx


this would be a good way to see if it's what the majority of people want and would settle the arguement if there is a need for such a law.


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## jojo

Just as an aside, dunno how true this is, but a friend of mine in the UK told me that because there are so many people in the UK now buying "black market cigarettes" (apparently its becoming a huge business)! that the government are losing huge amounts of revenue and its causing a problem - well adding to a problem!!! And they're having to employ more customs officers to try to stem the flow of these "black market" ciggies - I guess that helps with the unemployment figures somehow??!!!

Jo xxx


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## dunmovin

the black ciggie issue has been around for a long time and it's a result of governments raising the tax on cigs under the guise of protecing the peoples health but is really just a way to raise tax. That said......:focus:

If there was a NEED for a smoking ban, is it not reasonableto think that bar and cafe owners would have already banned smoking in their premises? Why should a few anti smoking people have the right to dictate how someone runs their business?
Surely their right to a smoke free enviroment is catered for by the fact they don't have to go into a place where people are smoking?


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## nigele2

This discussion goes around and around like the Magic Roundabout.

Ah a moment of nostalgia : My Rusty, Florence, Dougal, Dylan that crazy rabbit, ...... 

Anyway I'm with dunmovin, if you want smoke free then ask and if enough ask - well bar owners aren't stupid. In my area there are lots of non smoking and smoking bars - yer takes yer choice. Much more likely to trip over a prawn skin or olive stone and crack my head open than die of passive smoking anyways

But it'll happen. Just my two penny worth


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## jvmills

I doubt they will bring in the full 100% ban unless the EU pushes for it, but even then I doubt it will be rigorously enforced...


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## mrypg9

Two points:
1) could someone publish a link to the EU Directive which says that member countries MUST introduce smoking bans ? I tend to be sceptical when I hear people blame the EU for things they dislike. I'm not saying it's not the case, just asking to see the rule.
2) Last week I was in Birmingham City Centre. Pubs and restaurants were packed so the ban has made little if any discernable difference to the licensed trade. It was pleasant however to be able to enjoy a meal in a smoke-free environment. Anti-litter campaigns and vigorous enforcement plus a sense of social responsibility ensure that dog-ends are mostly put in the receptacles provided.


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## mrypg9

Further to my previous post: a quick Google search seems to indicate that there is no EU Directive which enforces smoking bans, although the European Parliament has urged the adoption of public smoking bans on all member states. In fact, various member states have adopted policies which allow for variations as to how their ban is enforced e.g. some German Laender allow separate smoking rooms in pubs and cafes.
Many non-EU countries have brought in smoking bans. When I was in Canada some years ago a smoking ban was introduced in the City of Ottawa. Such bans have been extended to cover all major cities and for all I know may be nation-wide by now.
I smoke very occasionally, usually when I 've been drinking excessively (another practice harmful to health......) At times I eat 'unhealthy' foods and don't exercise enough. I used to play squash. These too are activities/habits which could be inimical to health and the enjoyment of which could impose a cost on the state health service.
That isn't an argument specifically against a smoking ban as smoking has wider social implications than playing squash but it does have relevance to the singling out of smoking as being particularly evil. Alcohol is far more harmful in every way.


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## gus-lopez

Europa - Public Health - Health determinants - Lifestyle - Tobacco - Legal documents

Or google EC smoking directive.

The above gives you most of the smoking/tobacco/health directives & I think the one that applies is 2nd June 2004 where they ratified the World Health Organisations Framework convention on Tobacco control. Article 8/2 is the one that covers implementation of smoke free areas. 
The EC also upbraided Spain last year on their existing regulations not being enforced enough leading to the situation where the politicians are trying to bring in a total ban ,like the UK, to make it easier for themselves.


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## gus-lopez

More light reading here ; Redirecting... if you have trouble sleeping ! :laugh:


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## mrypg9

gus-lopez said:


> Europa - Public Health - Health determinants - Lifestyle - Tobacco - Legal documents
> 
> Or google EC smoking directive.
> 
> The above gives you most of the smoking/tobacco/health directives & I think the one that applies is 2nd June 2004 where they ratified the World Health Organisations Framework convention on Tobacco control. Article 8/2 is the one that covers implementation of smoke free areas.
> The EC also upbraided Spain last year on their existing regulations not being enforced enough leading to the situation where the politicians are trying to bring in a total ban ,like the UK, to make it easier for themselves.


Thanks for that. It's an interesting read, though, since parts of it seem to allow for variations in application by member states. Many EU Directives contain similar 'opt-out' clauses. The UK has a 'marital opt-out' clause which permits it to restrict certain social benefits to married couples without contravening discrimination legislation. 
But does this document actually impose an EU wide uniform ban on smoking in public places, though? Would or could a member state which ignored the Directive be punished in any way, I wonder?
It does seem that there is an unstoppable global movement in favour of smoking bans, though.
I think that there should be separate smoking areas in pubs and a ban on smoking in places where food is served. But as far as smoking as a practice is concerned, I believe that people should be given all the currently available information on possible effects on health and left to make up their own minds. The same goes for all drugs. Taxation could help pay for any adverse personal/social consequences. Sale to minors could be strictly enforced.
It seems perverse that I could eat myself into obesity and ill-health if I stuffed myself with Big Macs, Mars Bars and sugary drinks yet am likely to be punished if I smoke in a pub or smoke a spliff in the privacy of my own home.


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## ivorra

gus-lopez;
.......The EC also upbraided Spain last year on their existing regulations not being enforced enough leading to the situation where the politicians are trying to bring in a total ban said:


> They might just be aware that the majority of people even in Spain do not smoke and that many of those who do smoke wish they could give it up. Maybe it is easier on the politicians if they go with the choice of the majority of their electorate in this matter.


----------



## mrypg9

ivorra said:


> They might just be aware that the majority of people even in Spain do not smoke and that many of those who do smoke wish they could give it up. Maybe it is easier on the politicians if they go with the choice of the majority of their electorate in this matter.


I agree that smoking is gradually becoming a minority habit but surely minorities are entitled to some provision if it doesn't interfere with the expressed wish of the majority? It can't be beyond the wit and ingenuity of modern technology to create smoke-free areas in pubs where at the same time spaces are set aside for smokers.


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## gus-lopez

ivorra said:


> They might just be aware that the majority of people even in Spain do not smoke and that many of those who do smoke wish they could give it up. Maybe it is easier on the politicians if they go with the choice of the majority of their electorate in this matter.


Trouble is unless you have compulsory voting the majority of the electorate is normally only 15% of the population. It's just like the old union closed shops where the minority control the majority because of their apathy.


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## nigele2

mrypg9 said:


> I agree that smoking is gradually becoming a minority habit but surely minorities are entitled to some provision if it doesn't interfere with the expressed wish of the majority? It can't be beyond the wit and ingenuity of modern technology to create smoke-free areas in pubs where at the same time spaces are set aside for smokers.


But the majority should be people who contribute to the bars existence should they not  

The big problem is the "I'll have a small tonic water please; heavens 60c how expensive" twice a year brigade shouldn't have a vote at all. 

And before any one suggests ..... in my village there are clean smoke free bars. They are not flooded with new punters. And worse outside the pavements are full of dogends 

I'm a non smoker by the way


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> I think that there should be separate smoking areas in pubs and a ban on smoking in places where food is served. But as far as smoking as a practice is concerned, I believe that people should be given all the currently available information on possible effects on health and left to make up their own minds. The same goes for all drugs. Taxation could help pay for any adverse personal/social consequences. Sale to minors could be strictly enforced.
> It seems perverse that I could eat myself into obesity and ill-health if I stuffed myself with Big Macs, Mars Bars and sugary drinks yet am likely to be punished if I smoke in a pub or smoke a spliff in the privacy of my own home.


Oh well said!!!! :clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2:

I soooooooo agree with you

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

nigele2 said:


> But the majority should be people who contribute to the bars existence should they not
> 
> The big problem is the "I'll have a small tonic water please; heavens 60c how expensive" twice a year brigade shouldn't have a vote at all.
> 
> And before any one suggests ..... in my village there are clean smoke free bars. They are not flooded with new punters. And worse outside the pavements are full of dogends
> 
> I'm a non smoker by the way


If it's a business not a club then it's open to the public, not a selected few, surely. 
And isn't it open to a pub to turn itself into a members-only establishment where members can smoke etc.as they please? Most pubs wouldn't want to do that, though, as they usually have to rely on passing trade aka the public rather than regulars.
As for the 60c brigade...I can see where you're coming from but a customer is a customer and when we were in business we welcomed everyone, whether they spent £10 or £10k (we preferred the latter type...)
Dog-ends on the pavement - yes, as I said, that was a problem in Glasgow but that was three years ago and public education campaigns may have dealt with that. (I'm off to Glasgow soon so I'll find out). It certainly wasn't a problem in Birmingham - chewing-gum was, though.....
Both are litter and people dropping them should be fined.


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## jojo

Apparently smoking is allowed in all parliaments private areas!!

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Oh well said!!!! :clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2:
> 
> I soooooooo agree with you
> 
> Jo xxx


Thanks, Jo. I actually feel quite strongly about the UK Government reclassifying marijuana, totally ignoring the advice of their own scientific advisors.
Smoking may well harm some people including those who smoke the 'weed' because of the tobacco in spliffs but it can be baked in cakes or even used as a herb. I have a Czech friend whose husband can't smoke because of a lung condition so she adds it to soups. It is also generally recognised as alleviating the pain of illnesses such as arthritis. 
As for the social effects: have you ever heard of stoned people mugging old ladies?????
There are two harmful effects of using cannabis/marijuana in my experience: 1)people often put on weight from the 'munchies' and 2)they tend to talk nonsense, often accompanied by insane giggling.
Put that against the violence, crime, domestic abuse, road traffic accidents, damage to health etc. caused by alcohol and any ill-effects of smoking pot or even plain smoking pale into insignificance.


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Apparently smoking is allowed in all parliaments private areas!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Presumably because they're private members' clubs and not open to the public.
Not exactly setting a good example, though


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## nigele2

mrypg9 said:


> If it's a business not a club then it's open to the public, not a selected few, surely.


Well yes but it isn't like the town square is it. It is privately owned land and the owner as far as I'm aware can refuse anybody. But hey ho

Enjoy your return to Glasgow. Great city these days especially the counting house and those dark bitters from the islands


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## mrypg9

nigele2 said:


> Well yes but it isn't like the town square is it. It is privately owned land and the owner as far as I'm aware can refuse anybody. But hey ho
> 
> Enjoy your return to Glasgow. Great city these days especially the counting house and those dark bitters from the islands


Sorry to be nit-picking but owners of businesses are bound by the terms of the Discrimination Goods and Services Act and can't refuse to serve people they don't like the look of. Many of our customers looked horrendous but we smiled and took their money..
I think Glasgow is great...excellent shops, restaurants (my favourite is Sarti Fratelli, West Nile Steet ) and the rejuvenated Merchant City is a great place to live.
BTW, Nigel, when I was at my son's in Surrey last week he poured me a glass of Badger Brewery's 'Fursty Ferret' - I think that's how it was spelt on the label. He got it from Tesco Superstore at Reigate, I think.
If you haven't yet tried it, do so...it's very good indeed!


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## gus-lopez

It's not only the parliamentary areas but prisons also are exempt & the same will apply in Spain !


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## jojo

gus-lopez said:


> It's not only the parliamentary areas but prisons also are exempt & the same will apply in Spain !


Residents of nursing/care homes are allowed to smoke in their own rooms too. But they must have a warning on the door and staff who dont wish to enter a smokers room are allowed to avoid it! Of course the reason is that these rooms are considered to be the residents home! However, Parliament????????????

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Residents of nursing/care homes are allowed to smoke in their own rooms too. But they must have a warning on the door and staff who dont wish to enter a smokers room are allowed to avoid it! Of course the reason is that these rooms are considered to be the residents home! However, Parliament????????????
> 
> Jo xxx


There are members-only clubs in Parliament, i.e. only those we elect and whose salaries/expenses we pay are allowed entrance. So it's all private.
The daftest thing I've ever seen was when visiting someone in a special stroke unit in the UK. A woman in a wheel-chair, obviously an in-patient, was happily puffing away in a sunny spot in the grounds, watched over by an auxiliary nurse. Between drags on her **** -she chain -smoked - she told me she had had seven strokes....


----------



## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> There are members-only clubs in Parliament, i.e. only those we elect and whose salaries/expenses we pay are allowed entrance. So it's all private.
> The daftest thing I've ever seen was when visiting someone in a special stroke unit in the UK. A woman in a wheel-chair, obviously an in-patient, was happily puffing away in a sunny spot in the grounds, watched over by an auxiliary nurse. Between drags on her **** -she chain -smoked - she told me she had had seven strokes....


When my elderly mother was in hospital and sadly in her last few weeks of bowel cancer, terminal and extremely frail, but still able to be pushed around in a wheel chair. She begged me to to take her out into the gardens for a cigarette. I asked her consultant if that would be alright and he turned to me and said "but surely this is an excellent time for your mother to give up the dreaded weed" He then went on to suggest patches to help her with the cravings!

Back to Parliament, does this mean that all private clubs are allowed smoking?? Cos I know a couple of private members clubs who thought it was a way round the law and it wasnt! 

Maybe its only parliamentarians who can afford to smoke! An elitist habit!?????

Jo xxxx


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> When my elderly mother was in hospital and sadly in her last few weeks of bowel cancer, terminal and extremely frail, but still able to be pushed around in a wheel chair. She begged me to to take her out into the gardens for a cigarette. I asked her consultant if that would be alright and he turned to me and said "but surely this is an excellent time for your mother to give up the dreaded weed" He then went on to suggest patches to help her with the cravings!
> 
> Back to Parliament, does this mean that all private clubs are allowed smoking?? Cos I know a couple of private members clubs who thought it was a way round the law and it wasnt!
> 
> Maybe its only parliamentarians who can afford to smoke! An elitist habit!?????
> 
> Jo xxxx



How insensitive of that consultant. Didn't you feel like socking him one?? When people are terminally ill then surely they must be allowed to make their own choices in such things.
Private clubs...I dunno. It used to be the case. Maybe the laqw has changed? If it has it shouldn't have,really. Forming a private club to enable people to smoke with a drink isn't the same as forming a club expressly to exclude Jews, blacks, gays etc...


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## owdoggy

mrypg9 said:


> There are members-only clubs in Parliament, i.e. only those we elect and whose salaries/expenses we pay are allowed entrance. So it's all private.
> The daftest thing I've ever seen was when visiting someone in a special stroke unit in the UK. A woman in a wheel-chair, obviously an in-patient, was happily puffing away in a sunny spot in the grounds, watched over by an auxiliary nurse. Between drags on her **** -she chain -smoked - she told me she had had seven strokes....


The daftest thing I've ever come across is the banning of smoking in hospital grounds. Now, in the middle of winter, instead of wheeling your elderly relative just outside the doors for a quick ciggy (which is bad enough), you have to wheel them outside the whole bloody grounds. A few times after doing this the pneumonia will probably get them a lot quicker than the **** will

And here's another thing! Would you rather have your smoker neuro surgeon nice & relaxed when he's operating on your nearest & dearest or stressed out of his tree because he hasn't got time to stand outside the hospital grounds to get his fix....... and don't tell me this isn't applicable because I know for a fact that it is.

If you think I'm getting a bit wound up here then you're damn right My Mam, god rest her soul, was a smoker since she was 16 and even when the dementia was quite advanced, one of the things she still recognised as enjoyable was a ciggy. Towards the end when she needed all the normality (to her) she could get even this was denied her.

I spent a year watching my mother die and the odd ciggy would have made so much difference...... so before you get on your soap boxes........ just have a thought.

If I have offended anyone then my apologies. It's not a personal dig:yo:




Doggy


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## mrypg9

no, I understand exactly where you are coming from. The case I mentioned involved a youngish woman who may well have had a healthier stroke-free life if she had been able to stop smoking. Older people who've smoked all their lives should never be deprived of what they have enjoyed for decades without harming themselves.
Am I right in saying that as yet there is no evidence to show that smoking is always a direct *cause *of cancer? Isn't it just shown that there is a link between smoking and cancer etc.? Many people smoke until they are ninety or older without any health problems.
Look at Churchill...a great smoker and drinker, died not far off a hundred.
All this chat about smoking has made me light up....but I AM in the privacy of my bedroom, with only my dog beside me.
Feverishly awaiting the first Leaders' Debate on tv....


----------



## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> no, I understand exactly where you are coming from. The case I mentioned involved a youngish woman who may well have had a healthier stroke-free life if she had been able to stop smoking. Older people who've smoked all their lives should never be deprived of what they have enjoyed for decades without harming themselves.
> Am I right in saying that as yet there is no evidence to show that smoking is always a direct *cause *of cancer? Isn't it just shown that there is a link between smoking and cancer etc.? Many people smoke until they are ninety or older without any health problems.
> Look at Churchill...a great smoker and drinker, died not far off a hundred.
> All this chat about smoking has made me light up....but I AM in the privacy of my bedroom, with only my dog beside me.
> Feverishly awaiting the first Leaders' Debate on tv....


Thats always been my problem with smoking. I know it isnt good for us, but in my experience, my father had 8 brothers and sisters. Those who didnt smoke all died in their 50s (alcohol related)! The two that did smoke, my aunt who started smoking when she was 9yo and died at 98 still smoking and my dad who smoked, but gave up and died shortly afterwards from bowel cancer in his 70s (same as my mother - so its in my genes regardless of the ciggies IMO)!!

I have soooo many friends and acquaintances at the moment who have cancer (whats going on, its actually really quite distressing??), all in their 40s, 50s and not one of them smokes!? NOT ONE!!

So on that anecdotal evidence how can I possibly believe that smoking CAUSES cancer???? or anything else universally fatal

..... and as for the "first Leaders debate" please watch it for me and tell me if any of them have the leadership qualities to make Britain great again. Cos I'm not sure I can cope with it!!??



Jo xxx


----------



## dunmovin

jojo said:


> ..... and as for the "first Leaders debate" please watch it for me and tell me if *any of them have the leadership qualities to make Britain great again.* Cos I'm not sure I can cope with it!!??
> 
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


this would be a good time for a reality check


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Thats always been my problem with smoking. I know it isnt good for us, but in my experience, my father had 8 brothers and sisters. Those who didnt smoke all died in their 50s (alcohol related)! The two that did smoke, my aunt who started smoking when she was 9yo and died at 98 still smoking and my dad who smoked, but gave up and died shortly afterwards from bowel cancer in his 70s (same as my mother - so its in my genes regardless of the ciggies IMO)!!
> 
> I have soooo many friends and acquaintances at the moment who have cancer (whats going on, its actually really quite distressing??), all in their 40s, 50s and not one of them smokes!? NOT ONE!!
> 
> So on that anecdotal evidence how can I possibly believe that smoking CAUSES cancer???? or anything else universally fatal
> 
> ..... and as for the "first Leaders debate" please watch it for me and tell me if any of them have the leadership qualities to make Britain great again. Cos I'm not sure I can cope with it!!??
> 
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Well, I've got a bottle of wine as well as a 'smoke' to help me cope with what could be a difficult experience
Who knows what causes illnesses? I'm not sure I believe so-called 'lifestyle' cancers are genetic. Longevity runs in our family on my mother's side -my gran lived to 91, my mum to 81, both fit and happy and my mum's sister in Canada, my glamorous 86-year-old Auntie Nellie, is in great health and is off to Atlantic City with the 'girls' for a gambling weekend. She doesn't smoke though and thinks a small G&T is daring.
Whereas my father died before he was 40 of a coronary thrombosis.
As far as I know, I'm still going strong with hopefully a few decades yet to come as I've outlived my Dad.


----------



## jojo

dunmovin said:


> this would be a good time for a reality check


I'd like to hear about some of the other parties. Is it just me or are we being "coerced" into only choosing between the big three??? I know that the others dont have the right amount of seats etc, but surely they should be getting more of a mention in the media - I heard a little tiny piece on the TV about UKIP the other day - I would have liked to have heard more????

It seems the whole thing is becoming more about "star quality", looks and saying what they think we want to hear than about knuckling down and getting on with the job!!!!

I cant watch this thing tonight - too stage managed for me! 

Jo xxx


----------



## jimenato

jojo, contrary to what most people accept and doctors advise and what the evidence shows, you don't believe that smoking causes cancer. Also, contrary to what most people accept and doctors advise and what the evidence shows, you believe that sun cream contains carcinogens and causes more cancer than sunburn. Can you see why I am somewhat skeptical about your "beliefs"?


----------



## jojo

jimenato said:


> jojo, contrary to what most people accept and doctors advise and what the evidence shows, you don't believe that smoking causes cancer. Also, contrary to what most people accept and doctors advise and what the evidence shows, you believe that sun cream contains carcinogens and causes more cancer than sunburn. Can you see why I am somewhat skeptical about your "beliefs"?



Yes, but thats not quite what I said, but dont worry, I'm not asking you to believe me LOL!!! 

I'm just pointing out the anecdotal evidence in my life and those around me and I worked for a while at a pharmaceutical company collating study information !!! I guess thats why I have a feeling that big industry and the government are more interested in finances than health. But I'm not trying to recruit converts to the "jojo" way of thinking!!

Jo xxx


----------



## littleredrooster

To save me the trouble of wading through the many posts,does anyone know if a definite date has been fixed for the new smoking ban to come into force this year?
I previously heard June 22 mentioned, but heard nothing since.


----------



## jojo

littleredrooster said:


> To save me the trouble of wading through the many posts,does anyone know if a definite date has been fixed for the new smoking ban to come into force this year?
> I previously heard June 22 mentioned, but heard nothing since.


LOL, it does go on a bit doesnt it!!! The smoking ban has officially been given a stay of exectution. Theres a link somewhere amongst that lot from the last couple of days, I'll see if I can find it - if not, just skim thru the last few days worth LOL

Jo xxx


----------



## jojo

Gosh, we talk too much about nothing LOL Here it is

Possible year grace on smoking ban in Spanish bars

Jo xxx


----------



## littleredrooster

jojo said:


> Gosh, we talk too much about nothing LOL Here it is
> 
> Possible year grace on smoking ban in Spanish bars
> 
> Jo xxx


Ah well,....Manyana,manyana,..or sometime in the long distant future.

Seems some things never change.:confused2:


----------



## mrypg9

So in the meantime, just sit on the terrace if smoking disturbs you!!!!


----------



## gus-lopez

jojo said:


> Thats always been my problem with smoking. I know it isnt good for us, but in my experience, my father had 8 brothers and sisters. Those who didnt smoke all died in their 50s (alcohol related)! The two that did smoke, my aunt who started smoking when she was 9yo and died at 98 still smoking and my dad who smoked, but gave up and died shortly afterwards from bowel cancer in his 70s (same as my mother - so its in my genes regardless of the ciggies IMO)!!
> 
> I have soooo many friends and acquaintances at the moment who have cancer (whats going on, its actually really quite distressing??), all in their 40s, 50s and not one of them smokes!? NOT ONE!!
> 
> So on that anecdotal evidence how can I possibly believe that smoking CAUSES cancer???? or anything else universally fatal
> 
> ..... and as for the "first Leaders debate" please watch it for me and tell me if any of them have the leadership qualities to make Britain great again. Cos I'm not sure I can cope with it!!??
> 
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


My understanding of cancer is that it is dormant & requires a "trigger" to set it off, be that smoking ,stress, etc; Some people are not affected by anything & have robust immune systems ,whilst others are @ far greater risk of contracting it. As Jo posted even 30 years ago all the people dying of cancers that I knew had never smoked in their lives. My sister-in-law, cousin, uncles, aunts, all of them non-smokers. An Engineer I worked with , never smoked, drank, kept fit, watched his weight , 2 years from retirement & travelling the world, contracted cancer & died in a very short time. His consultant suggested it wasbrought on by the sheer stress of his job.


----------



## jojo

gus-lopez said:


> My understanding of cancer is that it is dormant & requires a "trigger" to set it off, be that smoking ,stress, etc; Some people are not affected by anything & have robust immune systems ,whilst others are @ far greater risk of contracting it. As Jo posted even 30 years ago all the people dying of cancers that I knew had never smoked in their lives. My sister-in-law, cousin, uncles, aunts, all of them non-smokers. An Engineer I worked with , never smoked, drank, kept fit, watched his weight , 2 years from retirement & travelling the world, contracted cancer & died in a very short time. His consultant suggested it wasbrought on by the sheer stress of his job.



Aside from smoking or not. Stress maybe be a factor and isnt good, but I think those who've lived thru the second world war underwent infinitely more stress than the stress we put ourselves under today!??? 

Cancer is really affecting my life at the moment, not because I have it fortunately, but I know so many people who have, infact a good friend has recently died from it and I think another one is about to. My family history is riddled with it!! I'm sick of the cancer research, the media, the health service all banging on about what new drugs there are to treat it and the trivial and ridiculous things that they report cause it - WHAT THE HELL DOES CAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE TO GET IT!! Around 40 years ago, a couple of my uncles died from it and it was announced by, I think it was President Nixon that the USA would wage a war against cancer - well what happened?????? Its at epidemic proportions today and seems to be growing. and now all the USA seem to want to wage war against is terrorism - whatever that means???!!!!!

Anyway, I'll shut up about it now, but cancer is a bit of an issue with me!

Jo xxx


----------



## jimenato

I think one of the reasons for cancer being so prevalent today is that it is a fallback or default disease - you get it if you don't die of anything else. In the last 50 or so years many diseases which used to kill millions worldwide have been either eradicated by vaccination or are treatable by antibiotics or other modern treatments. 
Also it used to be a bit of a taboo illness for some reason - people didn't talk about it like they do now so it's probable that it was more prevalent than we might imagine in the past.

Many people I know have also had cancer and some have sadly died however many of them have not. I have had cancer as have three of my female in-laws and I have had friends who have had breast, testicular, cervical and other forms of cancer who, following treatment, are now perfectly OK and living absolutely normal lives (minus the odd body part!) This would not have been the case even twenty years ago so it's not all bad news on the cancer front:clap2:


----------



## mrypg9

jimenato said:


> I think one of the reasons for cancer being so prevalent today is that it is a fallback or default disease - you get it if you don't die of anything else. In the last 50 or so years many diseases which used to kill millions worldwide have been either eradicated by vaccination or are treatable by antibiotics or other modern treatments.
> Also it used to be a bit of a taboo illness for some reason - people didn't talk about it like they do now so it's probable that it was more prevalent than we might imagine in the past.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I think that's true.
> Plus the fact that in the developed rich parts of the world life expectancy has hugely increased so we run the risk of simply 'wearing out' and becoming more susceptible to diseases we wouldn't have been alive to get years ago.


----------



## jojo

jimenato said:


> I think one of the reasons for cancer being so prevalent today is that it is a fallback or default disease - you get it if you don't die of anything else. In the last 50 or so years many diseases which used to kill millions worldwide have been either eradicated by vaccination or are treatable by antibiotics or other modern treatments.
> Also it used to be a bit of a taboo illness for some reason - people didn't talk about it like they do now so it's probable that it was more prevalent than we might imagine in the past.
> 
> Many people I know have also had cancer and some have sadly died however many of them have not. I have had cancer as have three of my female in-laws and I have had friends who have had breast, testicular, cervical and other forms of cancer who, following treatment, are now perfectly OK and living absolutely normal lives (minus the odd body part!) This would not have been the case even twenty years ago so it's not all bad news on the cancer front:clap2:



I dont believe that at all!!! Cancer is on the increase, its not an illusion caused by the eradication of other illnesses or peoples frankness to talk about it these days! Sadly as you point out you know many people who have had cancer, so do I, so does everyone, its everywhere and its on the increase - if it was an infection (remember bird flu or was it Swine flu????) The media and the population would be in a frenzy!



Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> I dont believe that at all!!! Cancer is on the increase, its not an illusion caused by the eradication of other illnesses or peoples frankness to talk about it these days! Sadly as you point out you know many people who have had cancer, so do I, so does everyone, its everywhere and its on the increase - if it was an infection (remember bird flu or was it Swine flu????) The media and the population would be in a frenzy!
> 
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


I think it is on the increase but as I said it could be because we're all living longer to get it -if you get my meaning.
Two of my friends have been diagnosed recently, one a close friend and a family member died last year.
Treatment has vastly improved prognosis though.
(is 'prognosis' the same as 'chances of recovery???)


----------



## RagsToRich

The smoking ban had exactly 0 effect on the custom of bars and clubs over here in the UK as far as I could tell (I do live in a city though, so don't know about the styx) - and if anything it built a strong community of smokers going outside and having a natter with one another.

In a way smoking became a "socialable habit".  

I still go to the smoking area of clubs now just to talk to people, even though I quit smoking two years ago.


----------



## jojo

RagsToRich said:


> The smoking ban had exactly 0 effect on the custom of bars and clubs over here in the UK as far as I could tell (I do live in a city though, so don't know about the styx) - and if anything it built a strong community of smokers going outside and having a natter with one another.
> 
> In a way smoking became a "socialable habit".
> 
> I still go to the smoking area of clubs now just to talk to people, even though I quit smoking two years ago.


I found that in the UK at Christmas. The pub was half empty, but the smoking area out the back was heaving - They had the music speakers out there and even had outside heaters to help "warm the globe" !! I wasnt smoking, but I was outside with everyone, and just went inside to refill my glass!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## Merseybob

RagsToRich said:


> The smoking ban had exactly 0 effect on the custom of bars and clubs over here in the UK as far as I could tell (I do live in a city though, so don't know about the styx) - and if anything it built a strong community of smokers going outside and having a natter with one another.
> 
> In a way smoking became a "socialable habit".
> 
> I still go to the smoking area of clubs now just to talk to people, even though I quit smoking two years ago.


Well all the bars I knew in UK that had no outside area in cities especially have closed down now with pretty devastating effects.

I see that the latest attempt at a ban in Spain was a "Damp Squib"!!
At least they don't bother sending out local council Gestapo to try and enforce it.

It really doestn bother me aws I don't smoke but I think people have the right to enjoy themselves!


----------



## mrypg9

Merseybob said:


> Well all the bars I knew in UK that had no outside area in cities especially have closed down now with pretty devastating effects.
> 
> I see that the latest attempt at a ban in Spain was a "Damp Squib"!!
> At least they don't bother sending out local council Gestapo to try and enforce it.
> 
> It really doestn bother me aws I don't smoke but I think people have the right to enjoy themselves!


It depends how people like to enjoy themselves though, surely,and the effect it has on others. Some people enjoy dog-fighting but surely we wouldn't let them get on with it. People who enjoy pubs don't always like to be in a smokey atmosphere. It was awful in the CR....when you opened the door of some pubs you couldn't see across the room for the thick blue curtain of smoke and food was served in that fug. You had to take a deep breath of fresh air before venturing in. No need for your own cigarettes, you needed only to breathe to get a lungful of smoke!
Like you, it doesn't bother me but as I said there can be space for smokers and non-smokers. 
In the town I lived in in the UK five years plus ago loads of pubs were closing, before any smoking ban,which was a real shame as there was sod-all else to do - no cinema, bowls etc. Last week in Birmingham the pubs were packed. I didn't see any outside smoking areas either. 
I think it was cheap supermarket alcohol and DVDs that kept people indoors.
Remember when people could smoke on planes? Flying across the Atlantic in a smoky haze....now those *were* the bad old days...


----------



## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> Flying across the Atlantic in a smoky haze....now those *were* the bad old days...


Did you know that when a plane is empty, and making a return flight somewhere, the cabin crew all smoke their heads off??! The air con on a plane is apparently so efficient these days that you cant smell it or see a haze!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9

jojo said:


> Did you know that when a plane is empty, and making a return flight somewhere, the cabin crew all smoke their heads off??! The air con on a plane is apparently so efficient these days that you cant smell it or see a haze!!!
> 
> Jo xxx



Cheeky sods!! 
How about a rain ban??? I thought it usually stopped raining like this after March... Just got soaked from car to front door.
Seems as if the rain in Spain....falls mainly on our house.


----------



## griz616

I stopped smoking 20 years ago, and last month after months of tests, I have been told I have an incurable lung disorder. It seems I don't have much longer. down to 20% lung capacity. I stopped smoking because my wife was told she had to stop. She still smokes, ironic or what.


----------



## jojo

griz616 said:


> I stopped smoking 20 years ago, and last month after months of tests, I have been told I have an incurable lung disorder. It seems I don't have much longer. down to 20% lung capacity. I stopped smoking because my wife was told she had to stop. She still smokes, ironic or what.







OMG! Griz!!!!!! How awful! I'm really pleased to see you on here tho. Thats why you've been so quiet Does this mean that all hopes of moving over here are now "put on hold"???

Jo xxx


----------



## gus-lopez

Plus the fact that in the developed rich parts of the world life expectancy has hugely increased so we run the risk of simply 'wearing out' and becoming more susceptible to diseases we wouldn't have been alive to get years ago. 
I was worn out years ago!! I'd done the equivalent of someone working 40 hrs a week from the age of 16 to 81 by the time I was 48, so I must be well worn out!! Trouble is the wife still thinks I can rebuild houses at the speed of light.


----------



## griz616

jojo said:


> OMG! Griz!!!!!! How awful! I'm really pleased to see you on here tho. Thats why you've been so quiet Does this mean that all hopes of moving over here are now "put on hold"???
> 
> Jo xxx


no I will die with the current bun on my back


----------



## jojo

griz616 said:


> no I will die with the current bun on my back


The currant bun isnt in Spain. You've got it in the UK!!??

Jo xxx


----------



## jimenato

jojo said:


> I dont believe that at all!!! Cancer is on the increase, its not an illusion caused by the eradication of other illnesses or peoples frankness to talk about it these days! Sadly as you point out you know many people who have had cancer, so do I, so does everyone, its everywhere and its on the increase - if it was an infection (remember bird flu or was it Swine flu????) The media and the population would be in a frenzy!
> 
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


No-one has said it is an _illusion_ caused by the eradication of other diseases - it does indeed appear to be on the increase. This is because other diseases have been eradicated and people therefore die of cancer. 

The media and the population being in a frenzy would be a useless sideshow anyway. 

The medical world isn't in a frenzy. It is trying it's hardest to treat a particularly stubborn group if diseases - and thankfully starting to have success.


----------



## Tallulah

griz616 said:


> I stopped smoking 20 years ago, and last month after months of tests, I have been told I have an incurable lung disorder. It seems I don't have much longer. down to 20% lung capacity. I stopped smoking because my wife was told she had to stop. She still smokes, ironic or what.


Griz, darling Griz - it's impossible to find the words. I just wish in my heart that I could wave a magic wand for you darling, but I can't. I'm so sorry. I'm so so bloody sorry angel but that's not enough. I wish you love and all the hope in the world that you'll be OK. I'll be thinking of you and praying and hoping and keeping everything crossed. 

Tally. xxxxxx


----------



## owdoggy

Jeez Griz, dunno what to say marra.
If there's owt we can do then just shout up.




Doggy


----------



## griz616

Thanks for the support, It is appreciated.


----------



## xabiaxica

It looks like it's a go-er:clap2:


Vote on Spain's closed public space smoking ban in Congress on Wednesday




> The legislation will allow smoking on outside terraces of bars and restaurants
> 
> The final details of the Spanish anti-smoking legislation are being established ahead of the implementation of the ban on smoking in all closed public areas from January 2 2011.
> 
> Read more: Vote on Spain's closed public space smoking ban in Congress on Wednesday


----------



## jimenato

xabiachica said:


> It looks like it's a go-er:clap2:
> 
> 
> Vote on Spain's closed public space smoking ban in Congress on Wednesday


I wonder if my terrace with retractable roof and fully opening windows on two sides will count:smokin:


----------



## gus-lopez

Looks like I won't be going out anymore.


----------



## jojo

gus-lopez said:


> Looks like I won't be going out anymore.


Yes you will Gus. I dont think any of the campo bars will take a blind bit of notice and I would guess the town bars will have terraces and they'll get "energy saving" patio heaters for the smokers during the winter months. It doesnt bother me, but I hate how Brussels think they can dictate to little old spanish chaps who sit in the corner of bars smoking away and playing dominoes, when these chaps lived thru Franco, wars and god knows what else and hey, at their old ages are still alive inspite of smoking!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## owdoggy

jojo said:


> Yes you will Gus. I dont think any of the campo bars will take a blind bit of notice and I would guess the town bars will have terraces and they'll get "energy saving" patio heaters for the smokers during the winter months. It doesnt bother me, but I hate how Brussels think they can dictate to little old spanish chaps who sit in the corner of bars smoking away and playing dominoes, when these chaps lived thru Franco, wars and god knows what else and hey, at their old ages are still alive inspite of smoking!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


 Aye, out here in the sticks our local bar is just an extension of a house (the bar area used to be the lounge) and Pedro, the owner, has already stated that the EU can knock out all laws they like but nobody's going to stop him smoking in his own house.......and when he told the local guardia they just said that it was ok but he should hide the ashtrays 


Doggy


----------



## jojo

owdoggy said:


> Aye, out here in the sticks our local bar is just an extension of a house (the bar area used to be the lounge) and Pedro, the owner, has already stated that the EU can knock out all laws they like but nobody's going to stop him smoking in his own house.......and when he told the local guardia they just said that it was ok but he should hide the ashtrays
> 
> 
> Doggy


Thats very much the attitude around here, by both the bar/venta owners and the guardia - in fact the guardia will be in there after the 2nd Jan with their ciggies and coffees I'm sure. 

Jo xxx


----------



## VFR

jojo said:


> Yes you will Gus. I dont think any of the campo bars will take a blind bit of notice and I would guess the town bars will have terraces and they'll get "energy saving" patio heaters for the smokers during the winter months. It doesnt bother me, but I hate how Brussels think they can dictate to little old spanish chaps who sit in the corner of bars smoking away and playing dominoes, when these chaps lived thru Franco, wars and god knows what else and hey, at their old ages are still alive inspite of smoking!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Correct Jo......AND.....those in Brussels making the rules about smoking are not effected as the rules Do Not apply to them (fact as far as I know)


----------



## jojo

playamonte said:


> Correct Jo......AND.....those in Brussels making the rules about smoking are not effected as the rules Do Not apply to them (fact as far as I know)



Apparently, they're allowed to smoke in the bars in UK Parliament!!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## xabiaxica

jimenato said:


> I wonder if my terrace with retractable roof and fully opening windows on two sides will count:smokin:


yeah - we're wondering that about our favourite bar

except the sides are all retractable too, so we reckon that will count as outside


& I'll be warm & dry inside:clap2:


----------



## gus-lopez

Yes, it will probably be the same around here but it's the principle , both here , UK, & elsewhere that I get annoyed at. If a bar wishes to be smoking or non-smoking then that should be there right . As far as I'm concerned it is discrimination. I've always said that if I win a huge amount on the lottery I'd open a bar in the UK specifically for smokers , no non smokers allowed & take it to whatever lengths necessary to show how much control we have allowed these idiots to have. If they want to ban smoking then ban the sale of tobacco. The same with climate change, if it's that bad , instead of putting up fuel & road taxes stop the sale of fuel. Simple, but they want the hypocrites 'best of both worlds' & the taxes that are generated, pure & simple.


----------



## owdoggy

Ah well, at least the tambourine bashers will be happy..... although knowing the type I'm sure they'll find another crusade fairly quickly.

Such is the way of this modern world ........ and that's why we've got off it











Doggy


----------



## jojo

I was talking to OH about the smoking ban this morning (he gave up 20 years ago)! He's outraged and is convinced there is a hidden agenda!! Why is it deemed so important to ban it totally in public places? He's convinced there is more to it - has the tobacco industry upset the government? Is there a "behind the scenes" feud going on??

As someone on here said, if the government were truly concerned for the nations health, they'd ban the sale, they'd also ban exercise/footbal/horseriding/alcohol, which individually accounts for an infinitely higher amount of GP/NHS visits and long term infirmities. 

It doesnt really make any sense. Ok, have certain bars that are smoking or non smoking, or even a smokers room out back with a good air con unit, but this total ban is kinda weird when you think about it!???

Jo xxx


----------



## Alcalaina

jojo said:


> hey, at their old ages are still alive in spite of smoking!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


But there would be a lot more of them still alive if they _hadn't_ smoked ...

I think it's great news, I'm fed up with my clothes and hair stinking of smoke when I get home, and a smoker´s cough next morning even though I gave up 18 years ago.

Five years ago when I first came here there were ashtrays in El Corte Inglés and people could smoke in food shops! 

Those who want to carry on will find a way, I´m sure.


----------



## casa99

I may have missed the boat here but din`t they try to ban smoking in the bars and resteraunts a couple of years ago ? , our house is near Baza and we found that some of the bars had introduced the ban and others had not, this year all seemed to have reverted back to smoking bars so it will be interesting to see what happens when we return next easter hols. I did smoke myself once and can understand how a lot of people will be p***d off if the ban comes into force, it doesn`t bother me to go into a smokey bar or cafe as some do.


----------



## jimenato

casa99 said:


> I may have missed the boat here but din`t they try to ban smoking in the bars and resteraunts a couple of years ago ? , our house is near Baza and we found that some of the bars had introduced the ban and others had not, this year all seemed to have reverted back to smoking bars so it will be interesting to see what happens when we return next easter hols. I did smoke myself once and can understand how a lot of people will be p***d off if the ban comes into force, it doesn`t bother me to go into a smokey bar or cafe as some do.


Yes - they made it optional. It will only work if it is not optional and rigorously enforced like in the UK. I have a bar, it is the only non-Spanish bar for many miles. My worry is that the Spanish bars will flout the ban and get away with it. As a foreigner I dare not.


----------



## gus-lopez

jimenato said:


> Yes - they made it optional. It will only work if it is not optional and rigorously enforced like in the UK. I have a bar, it is the only non-Spanish bar for many miles. My worry is that the Spanish bars will flout the ban and get away with it. As a foreigner I dare not.


Can't you change the premises to a smoking club ?


----------



## jimenato

gus-lopez said:


> Can't you change the premises to a smoking club ?


Well, smoking clubs aren't allowed in the UK so they might not be here either.


----------



## nigele2

jimenato said:


> Yes - they made it optional. It will only work if it is not optional and rigorously enforced like in the UK. I have a bar, it is the only non-Spanish bar for many miles. My worry is that the Spanish bars will flout the ban and get away with it. As a foreigner I dare not.


But surely jimenato your bar and everyone else's are full of thousands of new clients??? You know the ones who said they didn't go into bars because they are too smokey


----------



## Pesky Wesky

owdoggy said:


> Ah well, at least the tambourine bashers will be happy..... although knowing the type I'm sure they'll find another crusade fairly quickly.
> 
> Such is the way of this modern world ........ and that's why we've got off it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doggy


Pass me a tambourine. Mine's worn out with all that bashing


----------



## Guest

When a smoking ban is mentioned the usual frightening mention of bars closing come to the front . What a load of B............ Experience , where a ban has been applied, show that this is not the long term case. People are spending less in bars and drinking more at home because of the cost, not a smoking ban. I drink in a bar where there are few smokers. Most of them would 'nip' outside for a smoke if there was a ban. (Take a look at Xabia's local police station. There aren't fewer coppers because they can't smoke inside) before people shout, that was a joke!!!! Like a lot of others, I don't mind if you want to kill yourself, just don't include me in the fog around you. The smell from your clothes and the fumes eminating from your mouth. When I see young girls smoking I think of the young men having to kiss walking ash trays.


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## Alcalaina

jimenato said:


> Yes - they made it optional. It will only work if it is not optional and rigorously enforced like in the UK. I have a bar, it is the only non-Spanish bar for many miles. My worry is that the Spanish bars will flout the ban and get away with it. As a foreigner I dare not.


Well, having recently been to Bar Oba (Jimenato's splendid establishment in Jimena de la Frontera) for a highly enjoyable quiz night -:cheer2: I must confess the only thing I didn't like about it was the smoke around the bar area late at night. But I can totally understand that you can't afford to lose those customers. 

I can't remember whether you can shut off your glazed rear terrace from the rest of the bar but if you can, I'm sure it would count as an outdoor terrace. Even if you have to take out a couple of glass panels!


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## gus-lopez

jimenato said:


> Well, smoking clubs aren't allowed in the UK so they might not be here either.


Yes apparently you will be able to smoke in the Spanish parliament, Prisons, Residencial rooms, 30% of hotels rooms, & smoking clubs.

I was just reading that Mr Bean still smokes on the presidential jet , in defiance of the 2005 decree on smoking in enclosed public spaces ! makes you laugh , doesn't it ? 
In 2009 the tax income from tobacco sales was 10 billion €'s , in excess of the previous years gov. estimates, the only one out of fuel, alcohol,iva, & income tax to not only meet estimates but to exceed them.


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## geez

Alcalaina said:


> I think it's great news, I'm fed up with my clothes and hair stinking of smoke when I get home, and a smoker´s cough next morning even though I gave up 18 years ago.
> 
> Five years ago when I first came here there were ashtrays in El Corte Inglés and people could smoke in food shops!


I'm with you, Alcalaina. El Corte Inglés in Bilbao still has a bar on the top floor with doors pinned open and smoke billowing out from within. All of the surrounding departments -- fabric, wool, groceries and baby equipment (my reason for being there) -- are stocked with goods reeking of the stuff.

On the weekend my visiting ma shouted us to meal at one of the flashest restaurants in town. We had to retreat wounded after two courses and all felt ill the next day.

These are just two instances of where there is no sense or customer care exercised by businesses under a voluntary scheme. It's the one thing that really winds me up about Spain... I'd have a much better social life if I didn't have to risk illness to go out, not have to pick around the pinchos for ones not yet ashed on.

So, bring it on. However, I've no confidence that the smoking ban will be enforced. We are two and a half months out from the scheduled implementation and I'm yet to see any public information campaign launched as it was everywhere in advance of similar legislation. I've yet to see any bars building outdoor areas for smokers. The Basque government reported that it is still going to allow hotels to have 30% of their rooms for smokers... um great.... all those smoke-impregnated soft furnishings, scarred side tables, the worry that you might burn in your sleep. All this leaves the majority of us, who are non-smokers, in the lurch. If any local business complies with the law come 1 Jan, I'll be the first supporting them (with or without my tamborine in hand).


----------



## gus-lopez

Colt said:


> When a smoking ban is mentioned the usual frightening mention of bars closing come to the front . What a load of B............ Experience , where a ban has been applied, show that this is not the long term case. People are spending less in bars and drinking more at home because of the cost, not a smoking ban. I drink in a bar where there are few smokers. Most of them would 'nip' outside for a smoke if there was a ban. (Take a look at Xabia's local police station. There aren't fewer coppers because they can't smoke inside) before people shout, that was a joke!!!! Like a lot of others, I don't mind if you want to kill yourself, just don't include me in the fog around you. The smell from your clothes and the fumes eminating from your mouth. When I see young girls smoking I think of the young men having to kiss walking ash trays.


We're obviously talking about different bars . Around here all spanish business is conducted in bars, if you want a job, you go round the bars. If you want an electrician, plumber, etc, even if you go in the business premises you will be directed to find the boss in a bar somewhere. The 3 hour business lunches ,that still go on, conducted in clouds of smoke . Even my bank manager will conduct business in the bar & paperwork in the office!
In one of my local bars there are two old boys every afternoon, smoking & drinking brandy. On average they spend 17- 20 €'s every day. You don't want to swap them for two cokes & a coffee do you ? If only half the smokers don't use the bars after the ban comes in to force around here , trade will be down 50 % . You're not going to get non-smokers making that up are you ? Most Spanish around here , me included, average 4 times a day in a bar , which won't be happening if they can't smoke. 

To say that it didn't have an effect in the uk is nonsense. In many cases , especially in the countryside , it was the final nail in the coffin. Where I lived in Devon in the end, if you wanted to go out you had to rack your brains to think of a village that still had a pub & drive miles to get there.


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## ivorra

As for `tambourine bashers', I recently had lunch with a genuine basher of tambourines - our three year old granddaughter who loves the noise they make when bashed really hard. We went to our friendly and very small local bar and all was fine until about half-way through our meal when four women took the table next to us. All of them got out their ciggies and lit up and of course, the air became unbreathable. Unfortunately there are many smokers such as those who have no consideration for others and no manners. At least when there is a law, we shall be able to make a justified complaint against them.


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## Alcalaina

gus-lopez said:


> We're obviously talking about different bars . Around here all spanish business is conducted in bars, if you want a job, you go round the bars. If you want an electrician, plumber, etc, even if you go in the business premises you will be directed to find the boss in a bar somewhere. The 3 hour business lunches ,that still go on, conducted in clouds of smoke . Even my bank manager will conduct business in the bar & paperwork in the office!
> In one of my local bars there are two old boys every afternoon, smoking & drinking brandy. On average they spend 17- 20 €'s every day. You don't want to swap them for two cokes & a coffee do you ? If only half the smokers don't use the bars after the ban comes in to force around here , trade will be down 50 % . You're not going to get non-smokers making that up are you ? Most Spanish around here , me included, average 4 times a day in a bar , which won't be happening if they can't smoke.
> 
> To say that it didn't have an effect in the uk is nonsense. In many cases , especially in the countryside , it was the final nail in the coffin. Where I lived in Devon in the end, if you wanted to go out you had to rack your brains to think of a village that still had a pub & drive miles to get there.


It's odd that smokers carry on as if they have no choice but to smoke, so a smoking ban will stop them going to a bar. Well, there is always the option of giving up, or at least cutting down! 

I would have given up long before I actually did, had I not been sat in pubs with a bunch of smokers making it almost impossible to resist the temptation. Once people had to start nipping outside for a *** they smoked far less.

The old boys will still go to the bar, but they will stand in the doorway and smoke, just like the girls who work in shops do now.

The demise of the English pubs is one of the many reasons we moved to Spain, but it was due to lots of different factors - many of which were done with good intentions, like the drink-driving ban, and the Monopolies Commission forcing big breweries to sell off their tied houses. Many of these were bought up by venture capital companies with no interest in anything but making money; they employed managers instead of tenants, jacked up the rents as soon as the managers increased their sales, and forced them to turn public bars into restaurants.


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## gus-lopez

Alcalaina said:


> It's odd that smokers carry on as if they have no choice but to smoke, so a smoking ban will stop them going to a bar. Well, there is always the option of giving up, or at least cutting down!
> 
> I would have given up long before I actually did, had I not been sat in pubs with a bunch of smokers making it almost impossible to resist the temptation. Once people had to start nipping outside for a *** they smoked far less.
> 
> The old boys will still go to the bar, but they will stand in the doorway and smoke, just like the girls who work in shops do now.
> 
> The demise of the English pubs is one of the many reasons we moved to Spain, but it was due to lots of different factors - many of which were done with good intentions, like the drink-driving ban, and the Monopolies Commission forcing big breweries to sell off their tied houses. Many of these were bought up by venture capital companies with no interest in anything but making money; they employed managers instead of tenants, jacked up the rents as soon as the managers increased their sales, and forced them to turn public bars into restaurants.


I certainly wouldn't go to a bar to stand in the doorway so that I could smoke 
I have stopped smoking on numerous occasions, 8 years , 5 years, two or 3 times for 3 years & plenty of 18 months or more. I've never had the problem of sitting in pubs making me continue as I don't drink. I last stopped in 2005 but unfortunately had to go back to the UK which in itself was a reason to start again ! I have been considering stopping recently but it always comes back to the same thing , What's left ? Nothing. The only thing I've ever done is work leaving no time for anything else, you couldn't socialise as there was never a day off plus you were on call when not working. I could stop again but think what's the point , even if someone said I'd live an extra 10 years it wouldn't change my mind. I keep trying to think of a good reason to stop, but haven't come up with one.

All 3 pubs in our village were free houses but couldn't generate enough trade & with the smoking ban coming in two just gave up & turned them in to houses. Another , on the old A38 shut & was eventually turned into a farriers.


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## jimenato

Alcalaina said:


> Well, having recently been to Bar Oba (Jimenato's splendid establishment in Jimena de la Frontera) for a highly enjoyable quiz night -:cheer2: I must confess the only thing I didn't like about it was the smoke around the bar area late at night. But I can totally understand that you can't afford to lose those customers.
> 
> I can't remember whether you can shut off your glazed rear terrace from the rest of the bar but if you can, I'm sure it would count as an outdoor terrace. Even if you have to take out a couple of glass panels!


BTW Alcalaina and Mr Alcalaina won the quiz:clap2:

I might have to put a door in, but I suspect it will be OK. Problem is that it is the main eating area as well also in bad weather I won't be able to retract the roof.


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## jojo

I dont care whether theres a smoking ban or not, I personally think there are more important things that they should be legislating on. However, in the UK, yes there are bars that are suffering, not as much as they would have you believe, but it has made a difference - sadly tho what has definitely happened is you now have masses of people hanging around outside all night smoking, making a noise and a mess, patio heaters going. Most of the "punters" seem to congregate outside - including non smokers cos outside is where it all happens. Inside there'll be one or two people sitting down quietly chatting, but no atmosphere - smokey or social! - and of course, with everyone outside its difficult for the bar owners to keep tabgs on behaviour etc...... It isnt nice if you live near a bar!

In Spain, people sit outside most of the year anyway!?


Jo xxx


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## Guest

I can think of a good reason why you should give it up. Your health!!!!


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## gus-lopez

Jo, that's twice you've mentioned patio heaters . Whatever happened to the Uk gov. pledge to ban them as detrimental to the environment, climate change & all that ?


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## gus-lopez

jimenato said:


> BTW Alcalaina and Mr Alcalaina won the quiz:clap2:
> 
> I might have to put a door in, but I suspect it will be OK. Problem is that it is the main eating area as well also in bad weather I won't be able to retract the roof.


Apparently an outside terrace is ok as long as it doesn't have more than two walls.


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## Pesky Wesky

gus-lopez said:


> Jo, that's twice you've mentioned patio heaters . Whatever happened to the Uk gov. pledge to ban them as detrimental to the environment, climate change & all that ?


She's talking about Spain.
I sincerely hope they don't take off here.


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> She's talking about Spain.
> I sincerely hope they don't take off here.


my favourite bar has a patio heater

often in the winter it's warmer on the terrace than indoors:clap2:


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> my favourite bar has a patio heater
> 
> often in the winter it's warmer on the terrace than indoors:clap2:


And would you say that was a good idea, xabiachica?


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## MaidenScotland

I am anti smoking and love when I can eat and drink in a completely non smoking area, however as a bar owner I can tell you the ban has had a huge effect on pubs etc and more so the further north you go. Why anyone who smokes would stand outside on a wet cold windy night smoking his cigarette when he can sit at home smoking and drinking his cheap beer from the supermarket is anyones guess lol


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> And would you say that was a good idea, xabiachica?


at the moment if I want to escape the smoke & not freeze - from a purely personal point of view, yes!!!

probably not brilliant for the environment, I aacept



after Jan 2nd I plan to be indoors though


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> at the moment if I want to escape the smoke & not freeze - from a purely personal point of view, yes!!!
> 
> probably not brilliant for the environment, I aacept
> 
> 
> 
> after Jan 2nd I plan to be indoors though


IMHO, if it's hotter outside than inside, in winter, (and people think it's a good idea) there's something seriously wrong


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> IMHO, if it's hotter outside than inside, in winter, (and people think it's a good idea) there's something seriously wrong


it's only really hotter if you sit right under the heater

& it does get pretty cold, even here


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## jimenato

gus-lopez said:


> Apparently an outside terrace is ok as long as it doesn't have more than two walls.


Where did you find that out Gus?


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## gus-lopez

jimenato said:


> Where did you find that out Gus?


Sorry, I meany to post the link as well.

Congress approves the new anti-smoking legislation


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## gus-lopez

jimenato said:


> Where did you find that out Gus?


& this link shows the existence of the smoking clubs. What you need is a complete draft of the law.

Final details of Spain new Anti-Smoking legislation


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## gus-lopez

gus-lopez said:


> & this link shows the existence of the smoking clubs. What you need is a complete draft of the law.
> 
> Final details of Spain new Anti-Smoking legislation


Here's another article on smoking & the movement for 'banning the bans'.

Meet the Spaniards fighting to stub out authoritarianism | spiked


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## owdoggy

Gawd, ‘ere we go again. 

Smoking is a danger to everyone’s health so it’s chopped, ok semi chopped but to take this philosophy to it’s logical conclusion then obviously other dangerous things like motorcycles, fatty foods, sex (could damage yourself jumping off the wardrobe), alcohol and anything else with any sort of risk should be restricted as well. Well that’s me done, you’ve taken away five of my six main food groups. 

Actually, thinking about it, the sixth one is loud music but as we all know that can damage your hearing so that should really go as well.

Jeez, you might as well just shoot me now.


Doggy..............Having had a fried bacon & egg sarnie for brekky then went out on his bike for a bool about & now listening, ciggy & drink in hand, to loud music as we speak....... & if you're wondering about the sex?........sod off yer nosey ******s!


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## jojo

owdoggy said:


> Gawd, ‘ere we go again.
> 
> Smoking is a danger to everyone’s health so it’s chopped, ok semi chopped but to take this philosophy to it’s logical conclusion then obviously other dangerous things like motorcycles, fatty foods, sex (could damage yourself jumping off the wardrobe), alcohol and anything else with any sort of risk should be restricted as well. Well that’s me done, you’ve taken away five of my six main food groups.
> 
> Actually, thinking about it, the sixth one is loud music but as we all know that can damage your hearing so that should really go as well.
> 
> Jeez, you might as well just shoot me now.
> 
> 
> Doggy..............Having had a fried bacon & egg sarnie for brekky then went out on his bike for a bool about & now listening, ciggy & drink in hand, to loud music as we speak....... & if you're wondering about the sex?........sod off yer nosey ******s!



Thanks for putting into perspective Doggy!!! My thoughts exactly!

Jo xxx


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## dunmovin

playamonte said:


> I wonder why those in power still allow the millions of bonfires that are the norm from Nov to Feb across Spain if passive smoking is bad for you ?
> 
> I wonder why those who champion a smoking ban ignore the Vally's / whole towns covered in smoke that would be as bad as walking (by choice) into a bar that allows smoking ?
> For an example of this drive toward Ointeyent on a cold day and you can see the smoke from the fires hit the cold upper air and just sit there as it spreads for miles around.
> 
> I wonder why that there has never been a irrefutable comprehensive scientific study done to determine "if" passive smoking actually does harm ?
> 
> Its a funny old world ?


Because we live in a "politically correct" world... is the answer. It's always been acceptable to marginalize smokers (labeled "nasty, thoughtless people who kill others with their habit) Then the "Mob mentality" gets hold... then the zealots creep out the woodwork and those politicians that can make "personal capital out of it get involved....


Now turn the debate on it's head : if someone who owns a bar/cafe/restaurant chooses to allow smoking on their premises and makes prospective employees aware that should be his or her choice. The customers have the freedom of choice not to go there and the employees have the choice not to work there. 

Also keep in mind, that this country is in the grip of a recession, with huge unemployment figures and somewhere back in time someone studied the effect a ban would have on Spain and came up with the conclusion that it was liable to cost another 140,000 jobs in the country.

That is people who are content, even happy, just to have a job.

The sensible answer is not legislation, but to allow people to vote with their feet, by which I mean if you choose to frequent a bar which allows/bans smoking it should be your choice... not some twit of a BrusselsSprout.

The choice to ban or allow should be soley down to the owner of the premises. He/she will know what the clientel will want and keep his business afloat and his staff employed


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## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> Thanks for putting into perspective Doggy!!! My thoughts exactly!
> 
> Jo xxx


health issues aside though - & we could argue those round in circles for ever

I just hate smelling like an ashtray when I don't even smoke - & don't see why I should


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## dunmovin

xabiachica said:


> health issues aside though - & we could argue those round in circles for ever
> 
> I just hate smelling like an ashtray when I don't even smoke - & don't see why I should


simply answer..... don't go to places where that happens to you. Make your choice of venue based on what the owner wants. If he/she allows smoking, don't go there and this allows smokers the same choice, if smoking is banned by the owner,then they stay away.


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## xabiaxica

dunmovin said:


> simply answer..... don't go to places where that happens to you. Make your choice of venue based on what the owner wants. If he/she allows smoking, don't go there and this allows smokers the same choice, if smoking is banned by the owner,then they stay away.


but at the moment ALL the bars (AFAIK - I don't know ALL the bars in town) allow smoking


so that means I could never go in one


I don't see why I should sit outside freezing in the winter because someone else is polluting the air with their stink

they choose to do that - I don't

so I should get to choose to be warm inside if I want to be 



& they can sit outside - or choose to come inside & leave their stink outside


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## dunmovin

xabiachica said:


> but at the moment ALL the bars (AFAIK - I don't know ALL the bars in town) allow smoking
> 
> 
> so that means I could never go in one
> 
> 
> I don't see why I should sit outside freezing in the winter because someone else is polluting the air with their stink
> 
> they choose to do that - I don't
> 
> so I should get to choose to be warm inside if I want to be
> 
> 
> 
> & they can sit outside - or choose to come inside & leave their stink outside


But IF a particular bar owner chooses to alow smoking in their premises, which he has decided, to suit what he thinks is the majority of his customers, why should his "right of choice"be taken away by a disgrunted few? 

An owner, (someone who has invested time and money in his business) should be the one to decide, not politicians or others who has no stake in the owners business? These people don't really care about the hardship the ban would cause to the owners or their staff, if the ban caused the place to close.

It's unfortunate for you that all the bars in your area allow smoking,but that in itself says the bar owners don't want to loose the customers.


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## jojo

I think there should be segregation in bars, smoking and non smoking rooms, (and lets not forget they can do amazing things with smoke extractors/air con these days), or separate bars in the town, some that allow it and others that dont

Jo xxx


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## dunmovin

jojo said:


> I think there should be segregation in bars, smoking and non smoking rooms, (and lets not forget they can do amazing things with smoke extractors/air con these days), or separate bars in the town, some that allow it and others that dont
> 
> Jo xxx


that sounds more reasonable than a "blanket ban"


----------



## jojo

dunmovin said:


> that sounds more reasonable than a "blanket ban"


So why the "blanket ban"??? 

Jo xxx


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> So why the "blanket ban"???
> 
> Jo xxx


please don't tell me they're banning blankets!!


it's getting cooollllddd!!!!





























oops


----------



## gus-lopez

jojo said:


> So why the "blanket ban"???
> 
> Jo xxx


That's what the spaniards are protesting about , the government poking there noses into what they consider has nothing to do with governing & more with controlling what they can & can't do . This has led to the 'Prohibido prohibir ' , Ban the Bans organisation.


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## Pesky Wesky

Anybody remember the days before compulsory seat belt wearing?
Remember how people said it was an "infringement of our rights"??
How many lives does that "infringement of our rights" save EVERY DAY!
Same old arguments, some old crock of ****.


----------



## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> Anybody remember the days before compulsory seat belt wearing?
> Remember how people said it was an "infringement of our rights"??
> How many lives does that "infringement of our rights" save EVERY DAY!
> Same old arguments, some old crock of ****.


:clap2::clap2::clap2:


----------



## jimenato

Pesky Wesky said:


> Anybody remember the days before compulsory seat belt wearing?
> Remember how people said it was an "infringement of our rights"??
> How many lives does that "infringement of our rights" save EVERY DAY!
> Same old arguments, some old crock of ****.


Yes - same with motorcycle helmets. And interestingly those only affect the user - not anyone around them. Smoking affects those around them.

Last night we had a straw poll in my bar - not significant of course but interesting. 

The majority didn't want the ban. That included myself, my wife and several other ex-smokers, several smokers and several non-smokers. 

Some were indifferent.

The only one who wanted a ban was a smoker who said that when the ban comes in she will give up which is what she wants to do.


----------



## dunmovin

Pesky Wesky said:


> Anybody remember the days before compulsory seat belt wearing?
> Remember how people said it was an "infringement of our rights"??
> How many lives does that "infringement of our rights" save EVERY DAY!
> Same old arguments, some old crock of ****.



hmmmm..... I don't see it that way. What I see in this is some people tell others what the can and can't do with their business. If a bar owner wants to allow smoking, in the bar he's bought, runs,and probably works hard at...why does it seem that a bunch of people can tell him what he has to do, even if it against his wishes and those of his customers?


----------



## jimenato

dunmovin said:


> hmmmm..... I don't see it that way. What I see in this is some people tell others what the can and can't do with their business. If a bar owner wants to allow smoking, in the bar he's bought, runs,and probably works hard at...why does it seem that a bunch of people can tell him what he has to do, even if it against his wishes and those of his customers?


Do you think he should be able to sell alcohol to children?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jimenato said:


> Do you think he should be able to sell alcohol to children?


Yeah, I don't know if I've already said this on this thread, but we could do some upside down thinking, thinking outside of the box and all those other trendy-isms here.

Would you be happy if your children/ grandchildren took up smoking?
Would you actively encourage it as positive activity?
If smoking was introduced to our society now, would it get through the FDA or The Food Standards Agency?
If it did, do you think people would be within their rights to make claims against the tobacco companies/ governments for allowing people to use a drug which causes life threatening diseases? Think about thalidomide a few years back (And yes, I know, some claims already have been made against tobacco companies)?
Do governments ever make mistakes? Could it be a mistake that we have been "allowed" and even "encouraged" to smoke over the years?
Are other life threatening drugs in our communities classed as unacceptable for public use?
I believe tobacco was introduced to our society from either South America or North America. Do we have any evidence that the natives of these areas smoked tobacco on a pack-of-twenty-a-day basis? (As far as I know it was not reported as a continual everyday activity, but as occasional, special event use.I don't remember portraits of native Indians working in the fields with a pipe in their mouths for example)
Do people always use drugs in a responsible way? 
In the past have people's lives been bettered by a government action banning or restricting the use of smth? (gin palaces, opium dens, sale of solvents...)

Sit back and wait for the flippant "Bogg off, no one's going to take one of my few enjoyments in life away" (what a life!) Or the no one's going to tell me what to do; I've got my rights

I realise it's a stalemate situation, and that's the reason I really do try to keep out of these arguments 'cos you're never going to convince me, like I'm never going to convince the other side, but there are times when ...


----------



## jojo

Pesky Wesky said:


> Anybody remember the days before compulsory seat belt wearing?
> Remember how people said it was an "infringement of our rights"??
> How many lives does that "infringement of our rights" save EVERY DAY!
> Same old arguments, some old crock of ****.



I often think that I'm one of the people who wears a seat belt, not that I look very often, but when I do notice, seat belts are very much tucked away and not worn - same with crash helmets, I'd say 50/50 wear them 

Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jojo said:


> I often think that I'm one of the people who wears a seat belt, not that I look very often, but when I do notice, seat belts are very much tucked away and not worn - same with crash helmets, I'd say 50/50 wear them
> 
> Jo xxx


Well, there's another difference in this vast country. I _*never*_ see anyone driving without a seat belt, and haven't for years.
Not wearing a crash helmet, maybe, but seat belts...
I'm very surprised actually because don't you say there are a lot of police checks in your area??
But anyway, I was thinking more of the UK and the resistance that some silly ******s put up to wearing a seat belt.


----------



## jimenato

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, there's another difference in this vast country. I _*never*_ see anyone driving without a seat belt, and haven't for years.
> Not wearing a crash helmet, maybe, but seat belts...
> I'm very surprised actually because don't you say there are a lot of police checks in your area??
> But anyway, I was thinking more of the UK and the resistance that some silly ******s put up to wearing a seat belt.


I really don't want to go off topic but...

I used to stand on a corner waiting for a lift at school starting time. Each car going past would have mum and between 1 and 5 kids. None, and I mean _NONE_, wore seat belts.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jimenato said:


> I really don't want to go off topic but...
> 
> I used to stand on a corner waiting for a lift at school starting time. Each car going past would have mum and between 1 and 5 kids. None, and I mean _NONE_, wore seat belts.


But where? In Spain I suppose?


----------



## jojo

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, there's another difference in this vast country. I _*never*_ see anyone driving without a seat belt, and haven't for years.
> Not wearing a crash helmet, maybe, but seat belts...
> I'm very surprised actually because don't you say there are a lot of police checks in your area??
> But anyway, I was thinking more of the UK and the resistance that some silly ******s put up to wearing a seat belt.



There does seem to be lots of police checks in my area, but I dont think they care about the seat belt thing?? In fact I dont really know why they do these police checks?? - boredom maybe LOL??? The police local went thru a phase of putting tickets on double parked cars a while ago, that caused a bit of a "to do" amongst the locals so they stopped!!?????????? - its a strange country isnt it!!! In the UK everyone does as they're told and behaves, in Spain, it seems they simply dont care!!? Altho as you point out, its a vast country and different regions deal with things in different ways! The seat belt thing is here to stay and yes when it was first brought in there were "die hards" who didnt feel they should be made to wear them, but regardless of saving lives, its no big deal wearing one. When you're sat in the car, it makes no difference to your driving pleasure (or not)!

As for the smoking ban, I think the popular coastal bars etc will adhere to it and some of the major inland towns, but as for the smaller campo towns and villages - I suspect they'll carry on as normal and so will the guardia! Certainly for the foreseeable future IMO

Jo xx


----------



## jimenato

Pesky Wesky said:


> But where? In Spain I suppose?


Yes - here in Jimena de la Frontera


----------



## jimenato

jojo said:


> There does seem to be lots of police checks in my area, but I dont think they care about the seat belt thing?? In fact I dont really know why they do these police checks?? - boredom maybe LOL??? The police local went thru a phase of putting tickets on double parked cars a while ago, that caused a bit of a "to do" amongst the locals so they stopped!!?????????? - its a strange country isnt it!!! In the UK everyone does as they're told and behaves, in Spain, it seems they simply dont care!!? Altho as you point out, its a vast country and different regions deal with things in different ways! The seat belt thing is here to stay and yes when it was first brought in there were "die hards" who didnt feel they should be made to wear them, but regardless of saving lives, its no big deal wearing one. When you're sat in the car, it makes no difference to your driving pleasure (or not)!
> 
> As for the smoking ban, I think the popular coastal bars etc will adhere to it and some of the major inland towns, *but as for the smaller campo towns and villages - I suspect they'll carry on as normal and so will the guardia! Certainly for the foreseeable future IMO
> *
> Jo xx


I really hope not. That would put me out of business in weeks.


----------



## jojo

jimenato said:


> I really hope not. That would put me out of business in weeks.



LOL - I'm frightened to talk to you on "smoking threads" 

Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jimenato said:


> Yes - here in Jimena de la Frontera


Wow, that's terrible!
Perhaps the difference is the north / south divide??
I'll look again next week when I'm out on the road, but I have looked a few times in the past to see who's wearing a belt and who's not, because on the traffic reports at the weekend they often say that the people who died were not wearing belts and I wanted to check it out. When I saw that people round here were wearing their belts I thought it must be the people who go out at night who don't wear them.
Will do my seat belt survey next week!
:focus:


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jimenato said:


> I really hope not. That would put me out of business in weeks.


Perhaps you can do some alternative advertising in the local press.
Welcome to (your bar). As from (the date) a real non smoking bar.
Bring the kids without having to worry about their health.
Free (colouring kit, story telling time, chupachus...)
Between 13:00 and 15:00 on a Saturday and Sunday activities for the kids.

Do a sponsored give up smoking with you and some of your regulars. Print out a calender. How long do people bet that the smokers will last when they give up.

You need more things to appeal to the adults, but I can't think of anymore...

Ah, Non smoking English conversation classes!!!


----------



## jimenato

Pesky Wesky said:


> Perhaps you can do some alternative advertising in the local press.
> Welcome to (your bar). As from (the date) a real non smoking bar.
> Bring the kids without having to worry about their health.
> Free (colouring kit, story telling time, chupachus...)
> Between 13:00 and 15:00 on a Saturday and Sunday activities for the kids.
> 
> Do a sponsored give up smoking with you and some of your regulars. Print out a calender. How long do people bet that the smokers will last when they give up.
> 
> You need more things to appeal to the adults, but I can't think of anymore...
> 
> Ah, Non smoking English conversation classes!!!


Some good ideas - I'll think about it. All my thinking at the moment is about whether my terrace qualifies as a smoking area or not and that kind of thing. The point is, if all the other bars allow smoking and I don't, I'm stuffed. And I dare not allow it. Even if all the bars comply it won't be easy. We're on a narrow but busy street - not even any pavement space so people won't even be able to nip outside easily


----------



## jimenato

jojo said:


> LOL - I'm frightened to talk to you on "smoking threads"
> 
> Jo xxx


:sorry:

:kiss::hug::grouphug:

:tape2:


----------



## gus-lopez

Pesky Wesky said:


> Wow, that's terrible!
> Perhaps the difference is the north / south divide??
> I'll look again next week when I'm out on the road, but I have looked a few times in the past to see who's wearing a belt and who's not, because on the traffic reports at the weekend they often say that the people who died were not wearing belts and I wanted to check it out. When I saw that people round here were wearing their belts I thought it must be the people who go out at night who don't wear them.
> Will do my seat belt survey next week!
> :focus:


It's exactly the same around here, although far more wear them now than used to. I always look when I am out as to how many have their belts on. In town it's probably 75% but outside town & especially school drop off / pick up it's more like 50% !!
The mobile phone use is still as bad here as it ever was, I've always thought it was part of the driving test, being able to drive whilst phoning !!


----------



## jimenato

gus-lopez said:


> Apparently an outside terrace is ok as long as it doesn't have more than two walls.


What's a wall? 

(serious question...)


----------



## xabiaxica

jimenato said:


> What's a wall?
> 
> (serious question...)


I know what you mean - proper brick/stone walls

or do wooden fences count?


or the sides of a canvas/plastic pergola-type thing?


----------



## macdonner

I do smoke here in Scotland - at home I do it outside all the time (whether rain, snow or shine, you get used to it lol) and do not smoke in the car. I don't like to think that my kids are breathing in my smoke when they don't have to (and OH is an ex-smoker). 

When the smoking ban was planned for Scotland we all said the same - bars will lose business and have to close down- but after a few years of it being enforced IMHO it has not affected the pub industry that much at all (I think it is more the recession that has resulted in 7 bars closing per week or whatever the figure is now). I think the majority of people in Scotland are so used to it now that they don't bat an eyelid (having not arrived in Spain I obviously can't comment on how the Spanish people will react to such an infringement lol).


----------



## Alcalaina

macdonner said:


> I do smoke here in Scotland - at home I do it outside all the time (whether rain, snow or shine, you get used to it lol) and do not smoke in the car. I don't like to think that my kids are breathing in my smoke when they don't have to (and OH is an ex-smoker).
> 
> When the smoking ban was planned for Scotland we all said the same - bars will lose business and have to close down- but after a few years of it being enforced IMHO it has not affected the pub industry that much at all (I think it is more the recession that has resulted in 7 bars closing per week or whatever the figure is now). I think the majority of people in Scotland are so used to it now that they don't bat an eyelid (having not arrived in Spain I obviously can't comment on how the Spanish people will react to such an infringement lol).


Well, the Spanish and the Scots both carry a collective memory of being banned from doing things ... but with the Spanish it´s a bit more recent! I think it will be business as usual, at least in rural areas.


----------



## xicoalc

macdonner said:


> I do smoke here in Scotland - at home I do it outside all the time (whether rain, snow or shine, you get used to it lol) and do not smoke in the car. I don't like to think that my kids are breathing in my smoke when they don't have to (and OH is an ex-smoker).
> 
> When the smoking ban was planned for Scotland we all said the same - bars will lose business and have to close down- but after a few years of it being enforced IMHO it has not affected the pub industry that much at all (I think it is more the recession that has resulted in 7 bars closing per week or whatever the figure is now). I think the majority of people in Scotland are so used to it now that they don't bat an eyelid (having not arrived in Spain I obviously can't comment on how the Spanish people will react to such an infringement lol).


To be honest, in the UK people want to go out, they will go out and if they cant smoke they will still go out and nip outside for one. The Spanish locals are meeting the ban with mixed opinions around here but the big hit is going to be tourism.

People come to Spain because they can smoke in the bars, it makes a change. When this ban comes in people may choose to go somewhere else for their holidays. I know that to many that sounds a little over the top but it will happen - Spain is already a lot more expensive to visit with the bad euro rate etc, so add this into the deal and people are just going to look elsewhere!

On another note, for me, 10 days now without a ***! I didn't actually want to stop, after 12 years of smoking I got quite good at it and enjoyed it, but having been told by my OH "tu boca gustos de un cenicero" (or something like that meaning "your mouth tastes like an ashtray"), and "you will die, you will die" I thought I would stop in the interests of love jeje


----------



## Alcalaina

steve_in_spain said:


> To be honest, in the UK people want to go out, they will go out and if they cant smoke they will still go out and nip outside for one. The Spanish locals are meeting the ban with mixed opinions around here but the big hit is going to be tourism.
> 
> People come to Spain because they can smoke in the bars, it makes a change. When this ban comes in people may choose to go somewhere else for their holidays. I know that to many that sounds a little over the top but it will happen - Spain is already a lot more expensive to visit with the bad euro rate etc, so add this into the deal and people are just going to look elsewhere!
> 
> On another note, for me, 10 days now without a ***! I didn't actually want to stop, after 12 years of smoking I got quite good at it and enjoyed it, but having been told by my OH "tu boca gustos de un cenicero" (or something like that meaning "your mouth tastes like an ashtray"), and "you will die, you will die" I thought I would stop in the interests of love jeje


Good for you Steve! There's nothing like having a supportive partner to help you give up (same thing happened to me with my OH 20 years ago). Just make sure you stay together!


----------



## xicoalc

Alcalaina said:


> Good for you Steve! There's nothing like having a supportive partner to help you give up (same thing happened to me with my OH 20 years ago). Just make sure you stay together!


jeje, its not support I am getting, its more like the brush off when I used to smoke - followed by "oh no, dont stop for me, you have to stop for you, if you want to smoke you smoke, i dont mind if you smoke and kiss yourself, but dont expect me to kiss you" - having said that it seemed to have worked !!!!


----------



## gus-lopez

Smoking ban u-turn as Holland ALLOWS lighting up in 2000 bars and pubs | Mail Online


----------



## Pesky Wesky

gus-lopez said:


> Smoking ban u-turn as Holland ALLOWS lighting up in 2000 bars and pubs | Mail Online


Good news for smokers, but it looks like a typical political move to win over smoker voter TBH

PS Congratulations to steve in spain for giving up smoking - it must be love!!


----------



## xicoalc

Pesky Wesky said:


> PS Congratulations to steve in spain for giving up smoking - it must be love!!


Thanks! Love...and recession jeje!


----------



## macdonner

steve_in_spain said:


> On another note, for me, 10 days now without a ***! I didn't actually want to stop, after 12 years of smoking I got quite good at it and enjoyed it, but having been told by my OH "tu boca gustos de un cenicero" (or something like that meaning "your mouth tastes like an ashtray"), and "you will die, you will die" I thought I would stop in the interests of love jeje


Well done! I have tried several times and am due to stop shortly - mainly because as the OH likes to point out the £5.20 I spend on a packet of **** could be going towards the "saving for Spain" fund  

Campaigners in favor of the ban point to research from the Department of Health suggesting that in the year after the ban, the number of heart attacks plummeted by 10 per cent.

Read more: Smoking ban u-turn as Holland ALLOWS lighting up in 2000 bars and pubs | Mail Online


- Yep what they didn't mention is that the 10% reduction in heart attacks due to the smoking ban has actually been replaced by a 10% increase of fatalities from Hypothermia :smow:


----------



## xicoalc

macdonner said:


> Well done! I have tried several times and am due to stop shortly - mainly because as the OH likes to point out the £5.20 I spend on a packet of **** could be going towards the "saving for Spain" fund
> 
> 
> 
> - Yep what they didn't mention is that the 10% reduction in heart attacks due to the smoking ban has actually been replaced by a 10% increase of fatalities from Hypothermia :smow:


 VERY TRUE!

Well it's about 3.50 here now so its not that cheap to smoke here either now compared to the couple of euros we used to pay not too long ago!


----------



## Sonrisa

Pesky Wesky said:


> Wow, that's terrible!
> Perhaps the difference is the north / south divide??
> I'll look again next week when I'm out on the road, but I have looked a few times in the past to see who's wearing a belt and who's not, because on the traffic reports at the weekend they often say that the people who died were not wearing belts and I wanted to check it out. When I saw that people round here were wearing their belts I thought it must be the people who go out at night who don't wear them.
> Will do my seat belt survey next week!
> :focus:


I didn't even know that people were not wearing seatbelts in Spain. Since I can remember, it has always felt like second nature, to get into the car and fasten seatbelts. HOnestly I am surprised that people are still not wearing them and police do not enforce it in some parts of Spain. 

Everyone I know use them and are concerned about losing points in the license if their children are not secured into ther seats. The rural south is like a completely different world.

About the smoking, I think it will be good if it is enforced. Since I quit smoking I feel very unconfortable having to breath someone else's fumes and avoid some places for that reason. ANything that encourages people not to smoke is good, Imho.


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## gus-lopez

Re; the seatbelts, I was in town the other day , sat in a bar & watching the cars at the lights out of the window. 65% without belts !!!!! & that's in the town.


----------



## Alcalaina

gus-lopez said:


> Re; the seatbelts, I was in town the other day , sat in a bar & watching the cars at the lights out of the window. 65% without belts !!!!! & that's in the town.


I sat in a cafe by a roundabout in Chiclana one evening last summer and only 6 cars out of about 40 used their indicator ...

Long history of anarchism round here!


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## ivorra

Alcalaina said:


> I sat in a cafe by a roundabout in Chiclana one evening last summer and only 6 cars out of about 40 used their indicator ...
> 
> Long history of anarchism round here!


or "anarchism" when driving = laziness/selfishness/lack of consideration for other people's safety and well being. Likewise (as this is a thread about smoking), "smokers rights" = lack of concern for other people's comfort and health in enclosed public spaces/bad manners/lack of consideration etc etc


----------



## casa99

It will be interesting to see if the smoking ban will be enforced in the bars especially when the local policeman where I have my casa goes into the local pub for a ciggi, and the guardia also light up seemingly anywhere


----------



## jojo

casa99 said:


> It will be interesting to see if the smoking ban will be enforced in the bars especially when the local policeman where I have my casa goes into the local pub for a ciggi, and the guardia also light up seemingly anywhere



Yep!! I'm waiting to see how that works! I think it the densely populated areas it will be adhered to, but some of the smaller inland towns??????

Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

ivorra said:


> or "anarchism" when driving = laziness/selfishness/lack of consideration for other people's safety and well being.


Yes, I do think there is, at times, a lot of romancing about the memory of the Spanish fighting against Franco's dictatorship when there's a general disregarding of the rules, laws etc. A lot of the time laws change but just aren't enforced. If nobody's around to make sure the new law is being adhered to then nine times out of ten the new law isn't going to be followed. Nothing, or little, to do with The Spanish Fighting Spirit against Authority in my, and other Spanish people's opinion who I've talked to about this.


----------



## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, I do think there is, at times, a lot of romancing about the memory of the Spanish fighting against Franco's dictatorship when there's a general disregarding of the rules, laws etc. A lot of the time laws change but just aren't enforced. If nobody's around to make sure the new law is being adhered to then nine times out of ten the new law isn't going to be followed. Nothing, or little, to do with The Spanish Fighting Spirit against Authority in my, and other Spanish people's opinion who I've talked to about this.


The anarchist movement in Spain started well before Franco´s time though - the end of the 19th century. It was particularly strong in the industrial north (e.g. miners in Asturias) and the agricultural south, where many farm labourers lived in abject poverty. The authorities and the Church always sided with the landowners and the law protected the rights of the wealthy. The anarchists taught people to read and write, and to organise themselves against their oppressors. They didn´t (and still don´t) believe in participating in the democratic process, because elected representatives end up siding with the ruling class.

There is definitely still a spirit of anti-authoritarianism in rural Andalucia, and many people still support the CNT (Anarchist union). I don´t know about other areas however.


----------



## jimenato

jojo said:


> Yep!! I'm waiting to see how that works! I think it the densely populated areas it will be adhered to, but some of the smaller inland towns??????
> 
> Jo xxx


Well, I live in a small inland town and a fellow bar owner - his bar is the small, rather tatty, working men's type tapas bar says that it will work and if someone insists on smoking in his bar he will call the police. He can't afford a 10,000 Euro fine.


----------



## Guest

I remember how it was back home when the smoking ban began. Somehow, we managed to survive! I'm hoping the same will happen here. I'm sick of having to shower the moment I get home from a night out because I can't go to bed reeking as if I'd smoked a full pack myself!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> The anarchist movement in Spain started well before Franco´s time though - the end of the 19th century. It was particularly strong in the industrial north (e.g. miners in Asturias) and the agricultural south, where many farm labourers lived in abject poverty. The authorities and the Church always sided with the landowners and the law protected the rights of the wealthy. The anarchists taught people to read and write, and to organise themselves against their oppressors. They didn´t (and still don´t) believe in participating in the democratic process, because elected representatives end up siding with the ruling class.
> 
> There is definitely still a spirit of anti-authoritarianism in rural Andalucia, and many people still support the CNT (Anarchist union). I don´t know about other areas however.


All true, I just think it's very easy to take the information we have and make 2+2 = 5. There are lots of myths and stereotypes living on about Spain and England as well. My students often seem to think that the cultural level in England is far superior to that in Spain, that the health service is to be revered and the trains and public transport run like clockwork. All of which sounds to me like England in "the good old days."
Different areas, generations, experiences and education all shape our opinions and looking at a society from the outside does as well.


----------



## Sonrisa

I remeber when (as a smoker) I had no probs lighting up in the Metro, El corte ingles, cinemas, trains, even on a plane. 

Eventually it was banned to smoke in all these places, and as far as I am aware, most people adjusted their smoking habits to the rules..and certainly it didn't put most people off travelling or shopping or going to the movies. 

If the smoking ban in Bars is enforced, which I hope it will be, I honestly think that most spaniards will just get on with it.


----------



## thrax

We have been living near Frigiliana for about 2 1/2 months now and visit Nerja a lot. There seems to be an increasing number of restaurants and bars who are putting up no smoking signs even during the short time we've been here. There was an article on Spanish TV a few weeks back where they were saying that 160 Spaniards were dying from directly related to smoking illness each day and 4 of those were from secondary smoking, usually people who work in bars and restaurants. Most of the people interviewed were in favour of the ban but none of them thought it worth the expense of trying to enforce it.

As for driving, we've been impressed with amount of indicator use and most people here seem to be wearing seat belts. But, driving around roundabouts is very interesting since nobody here seems to use the inside lane, just the wide berth lane. Which means that when you are about to leave you have to be careful of people who seem to be just going round and round for the fun of it.

Motorways, of course, are different. Whilst almost everyone seems to indicate when overtaking or leaving the motorway, nearly everyone seems to be under the impression that 120km speed limit really means 200km.


----------



## Alcalaina

thrax said:


> ... driving around roundabouts is very interesting since nobody here seems to use the inside lane, just the wide berth lane. Which means that when you are about to leave you have to be careful of people who seem to be just going round and round for the fun of it.


A Spanish friend of ours took her driving test recently and said they are actually told to do that, even when turning left!!! it makes you wonder why they bother building inside lanes!


----------



## thrax

Alcalaina said:


> A Spanish friend of ours took her driving test recently and said they are actually told to do that, even when turning left!!! it makes you wonder why they bother building inside lanes!


Yes I think I kinda guessed that must be the case. The stick to the outside lane like glue.


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## gus-lopez

Yes the inside lane is solely for going back where you came from according to the driving test & if you have to stop on a hill to go round something & put the handbrake on that's an instant failure ! You're meant to put the car in 1st , indicate & ride the clutch.:clap2:


----------



## jojo

thrax said:


> . But, driving around roundabouts is very interesting since nobody here seems to use the inside lane, just the wide berth lane. Which means that when you are about to leave you have to be careful of people who seem to be just going round and round for the fun of it.


It makes me laugh the way people use roundabouts to park on, or even as a place to over take. Many a time, the slow moving vehicle infront of me will go right round the outside lane on the roundabout so that I can nip past on the inside!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> It makes me laugh the way people use roundabouts to park on, or even as a place to over take. Many a time, the slow moving vehicle infront of me will go right round the outside lane on the roundabout so that I can nip past on the inside!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


especially if they're smoking



:focus:


----------



## Alcalaina

jojo said:


> It makes me laugh the way people use roundabouts to park on, or even as a place to over take. Many a time, the slow moving vehicle infront of me will go right round the outside lane on the roundabout so that I can nip past on the inside!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Hey, have you finished moving house already?

Sorry, off topic but just curious! :focus:


----------



## jojo

Alcalaina said:


> Hey, have you finished moving house already?
> 
> Sorry, off topic but just curious! :focus:



NO!!!! its still chaos - organised chaos now, but, nonetheless chaos!! It hasnt helped that I have been working too (long story!!!), Slowly but surely things are falling into place

I really like the new house tho, I like the area, everything is so handy. It's made me realise that as lovely as the campo was, its so nice not to have a car journey just to take the rubbish out! So far, so good! 

Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jojo said:


> It makes me laugh the way people use roundabouts to park on, or even as a place to over take. Many a time, the slow moving vehicle infront of me will go right round the outside lane on the roundabout so that I can nip past on the inside!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


The car parking on the roundabouts still amazes me. 
However if we're talking about roundabout madness...
I remember in Norwich when they put traffic lights on one of the main roundabout going into the city. Now other places have followed suit.
And there's always Swindon...


----------



## xicoalc

Pesky Wesky said:


> The car parking on the roundabouts still amazes me.
> However if we're talking about roundabout madness...
> I remember in Norwich when they put traffic lights on one of the main roundabout going into the city. Now other places have followed suit.
> And there's always Swindon...


PMSL!!! That cant be real surely!

I like it though - me gusta mucho!!!


----------



## jimenato

See it from space!!


----------



## jojo

Can you imagine what a spanish driver new to the UK would make of that one LOL

Jo xxx


----------



## gus-lopez

The 1st one of those was in essex & I came across it in the 90's. Wasn't too bad then , light traffic & you could work out what you were supposed to be doing / going. I used it again in 2005 ( unfortunately ). Dear God it was an utter nightmare , absolutely non-stop traffic all moving at speed as they know where they're going.The most frightening & potentially dangerous part of the system for the uninitiated is the fact that when you are on the main roundabout going round , the cars on the mini- roundabouts are passing you on the wrong side !  Yes, for a foreign driver coming across that for the 1st time would be unnerving to say the least!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

gus-lopez said:


> The 1st one of those was in essex & I came across it in the 90's. Wasn't too bad then , light traffic & you could work out what you were supposed to be doing / going. I used it again in 2005 ( unfortunately ). Dear God it was an utter nightmare , absolutely non-stop traffic all moving at speed as they know where they're going.The most frightening & potentially dangerous part of the system for the uninitiated is the fact that when you are on the main roundabout going round , the cars on the mini- roundabouts are passing you on the wrong side !  Yes, for a foreign driver coming across that for the 1st time would be unnerving to say the least!


Or a British one by the sounds of it???


----------



## Alcalaina

Looks like we need a Driving in Spain thread ...

:focus: Re the smoking ban, there is article in Qorreo today comparing the ban to the criminalisation of other drugs which led to far worse problems. 

_*The folly of prohibition*

What is of particular concern is that these increasingly stringent moves on the part of governments to protect us from ourselves come at a time when other prohibitionist policies towards the consumption of illegal drugs have not only been manifestly shown not to work, but they have created far bigger problems than those they attempted to resolve in the first place.

The last three decades have seen the steady implementation of laws punishing drugs use. Back in 1991 marihuana consumption was recriminalized, as was that of other illegal substances in public. The result has been no reduction in drugs consumption, while the prison population has mushroomed, with around half of prisoners jailed over the last 20 years there for drugs-related offences.

The campaign to stop people smoking is driven by the same, questionable logic.
_Spain?s smoking ban: stubbing out freedom | QorreO

What rubbish! Apart from the dubious logic, no government is going to crimilnalise tobacco, it generates far too much tax revenue.


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## littleredrooster

No smoking in the street !

http://franksemails.com/pics/motivationals-9-10-09/russia.jpg


----------



## gus-lopez

Pesky Wesky said:


> Or a British one by the sounds of it???


Yes, & even worse when you're back there for the 1st time in years & concentrating on what side of the road you're supposed to be on ! & it's dark !


----------



## littleredrooster

gus-lopez said:


> Yes, & even worse when you're back there for the 1st time in years & concentrating on what side of the road you're supposed to be on ! & it's dark !


I lost count of the number of times my Swedish girlfriend suddenly started screaming at me in a mad panic, when she thought I was going the wrong way round a roundabout when back in the UK.


----------



## geez

Alcalaina said:


> What rubbish! Apart from the dubious logic, no government is going to crimilnalise tobacco, it generates far too much tax revenue.



Thanks for sharing this, Alcalaina. There's been so many off-beam articles on the ban and this is one is typical. It was refreshing to see El Correo publish a front-pager week before last of a bartender dying from lung cancer. The chap had never actively smoked. It's one of the few I've read that doesn't predict an end-of-world scenario come 1 Jan.

The tax revenue vs health cost argument is getting more interesting. The 10% drop in heart attack hospital admissions in Scotland mentioned earlier has been trumped by one of the Swiss cantons which found a 40% drop in the first year of smoking bans. Medical researchers are now thinking that they have consistently underestimated the danger of passive smoking, and a national referendum is on the cards in that country to now extend the ban.


----------



## jojo

geez said:


> The tax revenue vs health cost argument is getting more interesting. The 10% drop in heart attack hospital admissions in Scotland mentioned earlier has been trumped by one of the Swiss cantons which found a 40% drop in the first year of smoking bans. Medical researchers are now thinking that they have consistently underestimated the danger of passive smoking, and a national referendum is on the cards in that country to now extend the ban.


Well that is one of the most vague correlations I've ever heard!! Can they really be that daft as to think that banning ciggies in pubs is linked to a possible drop in heart attacks???? There are so many reasons why that cant be an accurate assumption , I wouldnt know which to start with

Jo xxx


----------



## jimenato

jojo said:


> Well that is one of the most vague correlations I've ever heard!! Can they really be that daft as to think that banning ciggies in pubs is linked to a possible drop in heart attacks???? *There are so many reasons why that cant be an accurate assumption, I wouldnt know which to start with
> *
> Jo xxx


Try.:ranger:


----------



## jojo

jimenato said:


> Try.:ranger:



How do they know its not that people arent drinking as much alcohol that accounts for the apparent 10%? how do they know that people are cutting down/giving up simply cos they cant smoke inside a pub? are they assuming that people are giving up smoking altogether cos they cant smoke in public places? are they saying that if people stop smoking for a year then they wont have a heart attack? Could it be that people dont go out anymore cos they cant smoke and therefore it maybe they're not stressing about rushing to the pub? Are they saying that smoking outside is safer?......................

jo xxx


----------



## gus-lopez

The health costs v tax income is black & white. Whilst smokers cost the health service the most whilst living,followed by the obese then those who do neither ; when taken as whole life costs the people who don't smoke, drink, do drugs & maintain a healthy lifestyle are top of the costings due to living longer & requiring more care in their old age.They are followed by smokers 2nd, & the obese 3rd. All this comes from the gov. / NHs own reports also confirmed by insurance company reports.

So basically the people who don't drink ,don't smoke, etc, etc, are having there lives funded by those paying additional taxes on all there evil pursuits , whilst living longer into the bargain ! 
As you can see all statistics can be used to prove anything if they are not shown in full.

"What rubbish! Apart from the dubious logic, no government is going to crimilnalise tobacco, it generates far too much tax revenue". No they are just restricting & criminalising the people who are funding there ability to squander huge amounts of money on God knows what.

This part of the article could apply to many other things that have been banned / restricted in the Uk certainly. 

"From a civil liberties perspective, the imposition of a Europe-wide ban on smoking is cause for concern. Firstly, it is an imposition; none of us have been consulted on the policy. And while the talk is of bans, what we are really saying is that smoking in public places, in bars and restaurants, is now illegal. So we’ve gone from measures aimed at protecting our health to a law that we can be prosecuted under if we don’t obey it. Little wonder that opponents of the smoking ban point out that it was the Nazis who pioneered the policy".

Most things that have been restricted,banned or criminalised have become far worse afterwards than they were before. In the UK now there are more guns than before they were banned , another knee-jerk reaction, & unfortunately the only ones that have them now are the criminals & the mentally deficient. 
Speed cameras / speeding , there's far more than there was before the introduction ,confirmed by the gov. own reports ( TRL 323 & TRL 325 ) commissioned to prove the opposite & they tried everything to suppress them when it became apparent that speed cameras caused more accidents than the stopped. 

Please don't expect me to keep funding their lives whilst telling me what I can & can't do.


----------



## jimenato

gus-lopez said:


> The health costs v tax income is black & white. Whilst smokers cost the health service the most whilst living,followed by the obese then those who do neither ; when taken as whole life costs the people who don't smoke, drink, do drugs & maintain a healthy lifestyle are top of the costings due to living longer & requiring more care in their old age.They are followed by smokers 2nd, & the obese 3rd. All this comes from the gov. / NHs own reports also confirmed by insurance company reports.
> 
> So basically the people who don't drink ,don't smoke, etc, etc, are having there lives funded by those paying additional taxes on all there evil pursuits , whilst living longer into the bargain !
> As you can see all statistics can be used to prove anything if they are not shown in full.
> 
> "What rubbish! Apart from the dubious logic, no government is going to crimilnalise tobacco, it generates far too much tax revenue". No they are just restricting & criminalising the people who are funding there ability to squander huge amounts of money on God knows what.
> 
> This part of the article could apply to many other things that have been banned / restricted in the Uk certainly.
> 
> "From a civil liberties perspective, the imposition of a Europe-wide ban on smoking is cause for concern. Firstly, it is an imposition; none of us have been consulted on the policy. And while the talk is of bans, what we are really saying is that smoking in public places, in bars and restaurants, is now illegal. So we’ve gone from measures aimed at protecting our health to a law that we can be prosecuted under if we don’t obey it. Little wonder that opponents of the smoking ban point out that it was the Nazis who pioneered the policy".
> 
> Most things that have been restricted,banned or criminalised have become far worse afterwards than they were before. In the UK now there are more guns than before they were banned , another knee-jerk reaction, & *unfortunately the only ones that have them now are the criminals & the mentally deficient. *
> Speed cameras / speeding , there's far more than there was before the introduction ,confirmed by the gov. own reports ( TRL 323 & TRL 325 ) commissioned to prove the opposite & they tried everything to suppress them when it became apparent that speed cameras caused more accidents than the stopped.
> 
> Please don't expect me to keep funding their lives whilst telling me what I can & can't do.


Well we'll just take the piece of utter rubbish highlighted in red as being representative of the veracity of the rest of the post and just ignore the whole thing then.


----------



## Alcalaina

jimenato said:


> Well we'll just take the piece of utter rubbish highlighted in red as being representative of the veracity of the rest of the post and just ignore the whole thing then.


Well said, Jimenato.

Have you found out yet whether your glazed terrace is going to be OK as a smoking area?


----------



## gus-lopez

jimenato said:


> Well we'll just take the piece of utter rubbish highlighted in red as being representative of the veracity of the rest of the post and just ignore the whole thing then.


Well if you go on the site I was on just yesterday you'll see for yourself . I've been there , worked with them, taken photo's to cover myself, I don't trust any of them.


----------



## jimenato

jojo said:


> Well that is one of the most vague correlations I've ever heard!! Can they really be that daft as to think that banning ciggies in pubs is linked to a possible drop in heart attacks???? There are so many reasons why that cant be an accurate assumption , I wouldnt know which to start with


It's not a 'possible drop in heart attacks' it is an _actual_ drop in heart attacks. I doubt that anyone at this time would definitely say that the ban caused the drop in attacks.

But there could be a number of reasons why the ban might be _linked_ to the drop and you helpfully point some out:



jojo said:


> How do they know its not that people arent drinking as much alcohol that accounts for the apparent 10%?


Presumably you are assuming that people are drinking less because of the smoking ban. That's a link then.



jojo said:


> how do they know that people are cutting down/giving up simply cos they cant smoke inside a pub?


Do they say they know that? I assume that because you asked this question, you are thinking that the aim of banning smoking in bars is to persuade people to cut down or give up. I don't think that is the aim, or at least not the main aim. The aim is to cut the harm done by smoking. This may, of course, involve people cutting down or giving up, but it may also involve allowing non-smokers to breathe clean air.



jojo said:


> are they assuming that people are giving up smoking altogether cos they cant smoke in public places?


Don't know - why do you ask? Of course, if people are giving up smoking because of that then that is a good result.



jojo said:


> are they saying that if people stop smoking for a year then they wont have a heart attack?


No they aren't saying that - again I'm not sure why you're asking that question.



jojo said:


> Could it be that people dont go out anymore cos they cant smoke and therefore it maybe they're not stressing about rushing to the pub?


Could be. That's a link then



jojo said:


> Are they saying that smoking outside is safer?......................


I don't think they are saying that but it probably is safer, at least for those inside. If it is safer, that's another link.

Smoking has been banned and the number of heart attacks has been drastically reduced. It would be daft to assume automatically that the one follows the other. But it is not daft at all to suspect that the one _might_ follow the other. After all, heart disease is often related to smoking, the smoking ban was introduced to try to reduce the incidence of smoking related disease and heart attacks have reduced. If this was a scientific experiment (it isn't) this would be an encouraging result.


----------



## jojo

jimenato said:


> It's not a 'possible drop in heart attacks' it is an _actual_ drop in heart attacks. I doubt that anyone at this time would definitely say that the ban caused the drop in attacks.
> 
> But there could be a number of reasons why the ban might be _linked_ to the drop and you helpfully point some out:
> 
> 
> 
> Presumably you are assuming that people are drinking less because of the smoking ban. That's a link then.
> 
> 
> Do they say they know that? I assume that because you asked this question, you are thinking that the aim of banning smoking in bars is to persuade people to cut down or give up. I don't think that is the aim, or at least not the main aim. The aim is to cut the harm done by smoking. This may, of course, involve people cutting down or giving up, but it may also involve allowing non-smokers to breathe clean air.
> 
> 
> Don't know - why do you ask? Of course, if people are giving up smoking because of that then that is a good result.
> 
> 
> No they aren't saying that - again I'm not sure why you're asking that question.
> 
> 
> Could be. That's a link then
> 
> 
> I don't think they are saying that but it probably is safer, at least for those inside. If it is safer, that's another link.
> 
> Smoking has been banned and the number of heart attacks has been drastically reduced. It would be daft to assume automatically that the one follows the other. But it is not daft at all to suspect that the one _might_ follow the other. After all, heart disease is often related to smoking, the smoking ban was introduced to try to reduce the incidence of smoking related disease and heart attacks have reduced. If this was a scientific experiment (it isn't) this would be an encouraging result.


:faint2:

Jo xxx


----------



## Alcalaina

We mustn´t forget that the original purpose of smoking bans in bars etc (in the UK and the US at least) was _not_ to protect the smoker, but to protect the owners of said establishments from being sued by staff who contracted cancer from working in a smokey environment, Remember Roy Castle, the comedian who never smoked in his life but died of lung cancer through working in smoky clubs every night?

Fear of litigation - one of the founding principles of the Elf & Safety movement.


----------



## geez

jojo said:


> Well that is one of the most vague correlations I've ever heard!! Can they really be that daft as to think that banning ciggies in pubs is linked to a possible drop in heart attacks???? There are so many reasons why that cant be an accurate assumption , I wouldnt know which to start with
> 
> Jo xxx


Apparently, there;s some serious epidemiological research is going into just that. The heart attack admission rate drops are so surprising that it would be daft not to consider why they have dropped so precipitously in some places. Would it be such a surprise that smoking really is more hazardous to bystanders and participants than was previously thought? Anyway, quick wins in health budgets are a nice and potentially massive sideline benefit to the overall improvement in public health. I know I'll enjoy the ban, but if it means a few extra years for my still-addicted friends who will undoubtedly be smoking fewer ciggies and breathing less passive smoke then I'm even more in favour.


----------



## gus-lopez

I can't understand how the tobacco companies have never been sued over encouraging their staff to smoke by giving out free cigarettes with their monthly wages .


----------



## gus-lopez

geez said:


> Apparently, there;s some serious epidemiological research is going into just that. The heart attack admission rate drops are so surprising that it would be daft not to consider why they have dropped so precipitously in some places. Would it be such a surprise that smoking really is more hazardous to bystanders and participants than was previously thought? Anyway, quick wins in health budgets are a nice and potentially massive sideline benefit to the overall improvement in public health. I know I'll enjoy the ban, but if it means a few extra years for my still-addicted friends who will undoubtedly be smoking fewer ciggies and breathing less passive smoke then I'm even more in favour.


The swiss report actually states that the fall in acute heart attacks is mainly non-smokers, therefore it would seem that they have an inherent risk. I can't quite understand how passive smoking could adversely affect your smoking friends ?


----------



## Alcalaina

gus-lopez said:


> I can't understand how the tobacco companies have never been sued over encouraging their staff to smoke by giving out free cigarettes with their monthly wages .


They have.
A Tobacco Lawsuit Primer - Francesco Barbera - Slate Magazine


----------



## gus-lopez

Alcalaina said:


> They have.
> A Tobacco Lawsuit Primer - Francesco Barbera - Slate Magazine


Ah yes, I know they have in the U.S. but I meant in the UK. They used to give out 200 cigarettes to employees every month, my sister never smoked & used to stack them up in her bedroom .


----------



## jojo

geez said:


> Apparently, there;s some serious epidemiological research is going into just that. The heart attack admission rate drops are so surprising that it would be daft not to consider why they have dropped so precipitously in some places. Would it be such a surprise that smoking really is more hazardous to bystanders and participants than was previously thought? Anyway, quick wins in health budgets are a nice and potentially massive sideline benefit to the overall improvement in public health. I know I'll enjoy the ban, but if it means a few extra years for my still-addicted friends who will undoubtedly be smoking fewer ciggies and breathing less passive smoke then I'm even more in favour.


I dont care about the ban, but I do care about dodgy science and the government clinging to anything to prove a point!! It would be lovely if they did some accurate analysis of the situation and it were a scientific fact. However, I dont believe that it proves anything at all! People havent stopped smoking because of the ban, they go outside! Ok so bars no longer have a smoky atmosphere, but if that is the reason why heart attacks etc (and the etc is interesting!!??) have gone down, why wasnt that the reason why they went up in the first place???

Jo xxx


----------



## jimenato

jojo said:


> I dont care about the ban, but I do care about dodgy science and the government clinging to anything to prove a point!!


Has there been some dodgy science? And which government is clinging to what to prove what point?



jojo said:


> It would be lovely if they did some accurate analysis of the situation and it were a scientific fact. However, I dont believe that it proves anything at all! People havent stopped smoking because of the ban, they go outside!


No-one is saying that anyone has stopped smoking are they? The benefit might well be derived from people going outside.



jojo said:


> Ok so bars no longer have a smoky atmosphere, but if that is the reason why heart attacks etc (and the etc is interesting!!??) have gone down, why wasnt that the reason why they went up in the first place???


How do you know that it wasn't the reason?


----------



## jojo

jimenato said:


> Has there been some dodgy science? And which government is clinging to what to prove what point?
> 
> 
> 
> No-one is saying that anyone has stopped smoking are they? The benefit might well be derived from people going outside.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know that it wasn't the reason?



My questions would need to be asked if the scientific proof was there would they! Now stop it, I'm bored with it! 

Jo xxx


----------



## littleredrooster

jojo said:


> My questions would need to be asked if the scientific proof was there would they! Now stop it, I'm bored with it!
> 
> Jo xxx



If in doubt, better safe than sorry.

If evidence suggested that an aircraft might have dodgy engines and it's wings were about to fall off, I suppose you would be happy to fly in it, until a major disaster occurred, and it was proved beyond scientific doubt to be faulty ? lane:


----------



## geez

gus-lopez said:


> The swiss report actually states that the fall in acute heart attacks is mainly non-smokers, therefore it would seem that they have an inherent risk. I can't quite understand how passive smoking could adversely affect your smoking friends ?


Loads of reasons to think that smokers benefit too from reduction in passive smoke. My friends who work in hospitality smoke, or smoke more than they would if they worked in a non-smoking environment to cope with their toxic workplaces. Restricting smoking indoors = fewer ciggies smoked per person = reduced health damage to the smoker. Besides, passive smoke impacts smokers too, no? The initial Swiss report was after the first year after the ban came in. Behavioural change might take a little longer but smoking rates tend to decrease where bans are in place.... it simply becomes less normalised as an activity.


----------



## gus-lopez

Well at least it will save me money when it comes in as I won't be wasting it in the bars everyday !


----------



## jimenato

gus-lopez said:


> The swiss report actually states that the fall in acute heart attacks is mainly non-smokers, therefore it would seem that they have an inherent risk. I can't quite understand how passive smoking could adversely affect your smoking friends ?


OK, so the smokers are carrying on smoking and therefore not reducing their risk of heart attack but the non-smokers are now sitting in clean air so their heart attack rate goes down. Seems an obvious answer to me and a pretty good indicator that passive smoking is harmful.


----------



## jimenato

gus-lopez said:


> Well at least it will save me money when it comes in as I won't be wasting it in the bars everyday !


Money spent in bars is never wasted:tongue1:


----------



## Caz.I

jimenato said:


> Money spent in bars is never wasted:tongue1:


Well I have to say, after being at a Halloween party in a bar in Benalmadena which was no smoking (I dont know if it usually is or if it was only for the kids party), it was fantastic to come home without hair or clothes smelling of smoke and feeling that I can breathe for once. And I will be a lot more enthusiastic about going out to a bar in the evening once the ban is in place.


----------



## ivorra

More from the tambourine bashers?........
BBC News - Passive smoking 'kills 600,000' worldwide


----------



## jimenato

ivorra said:


> More from the tambourine bashers?........
> BBC News - Passive smoking 'kills 600,000' worldwide


Interesting. At least it's helping solve the overpopulation problem.


----------



## gus-lopez

jimenato said:


> Interesting. At least it's helping solve the overpopulation problem.


Couldn't agree more, we can't all expect to stay alive forever.


----------



## ivorra

gus-lopez said:


> Couldn't agree more, we can't all expect to stay alive forever.


But perhaps babies and children could expect not to have their health destroyed by an entirely avoidable hazard imposed by their parents and other adults:

"One-third of those killed are children, often exposed to smoke at home, the World Health Organization (WHO) found.

The study, in 192 countries, found that passive smoking is particularly dangerous for children, said to be at higher risk of sudden infant death syndrome, pneumonia and asthma.

Passive smoking causes heart disease, respiratory illness and lung cancer."


----------



## jojo

ivorra said:


> But perhaps babies and children could expect not to have their health destroyed by an entirely avoidable hazard imposed by their parents and other adults:
> 
> "One-third of those killed are children, often exposed to smoke at home, the World Health Organization (WHO) found.
> 
> The study, in 192 countries, found that passive smoking is particularly dangerous for children, said to be at higher risk of sudden infant death syndrome, pneumonia and asthma.
> 
> Passive smoking causes heart disease, respiratory illness and lung cancer."


Just for the sake of accuracy. Passive smoking MAY CONTRIBUTE towards heart disease, respiratory illnesses and lung cancer - there has never been any conclusive proof nor a direct correlation.

Jo xxx


----------



## gus-lopez

ivorra said:


> But perhaps babies and children could expect not to have their health destroyed by an entirely avoidable hazard imposed by their parents and other adults:
> 
> "One-third of those killed are children, often exposed to smoke at home, the World Health Organization (WHO) found.
> 
> The study, in 192 countries, found that passive smoking is particularly dangerous for children, said to be at higher risk of sudden infant death syndrome, pneumonia and asthma.
> 
> Passive smoking causes heart disease, respiratory illness and lung cancer."


You left this part out ; "The global health body said it was particularly concerned about the estimated 165,000 children who die of smoke-related respiratory infections, ............................mostly in South East Asia and in Africa."


----------



## jimenato

jojo said:


> Just for the sake of accuracy. Passive smoking MAY CONTRIBUTE towards heart disease, respiratory illnesses and lung cancer - there has never been any conclusive proof nor a direct correlation.
> 
> Jo xxx


Just for the sake of sanity, Passive smoking MAY CONTRIBUTE towards heart disease, respiratory illnesses and lung cancer - there has never been any conclusive proof nor a direct correlation ALTHOUGH NOBODY WITH ANY SENSE DOUBTS THAT THE ONE LEADS TO THE OTHER:smokin:


----------



## jojo

jimenato said:


> Just for the sake of sanity, Passive smoking MAY CONTRIBUTE towards heart disease, respiratory illnesses and lung cancer - there has never been any conclusive proof nor a direct correlation ALTHOUGH NOBODY WITH ANY SENSE DOUBTS THAT THE ONE LEADS TO THE OTHER:smokin:


"MAY" !!!!!!! I have sense and I know of (we all do) many people who have lived or been in smoky environments, with smoking parents and grandparents that who have lived to a ripe old age. To be conclusive it would have to be like drinking bleach - you die!

Jo xxx


----------



## MaidenScotland

It makes you stink


----------



## jojo

MaidenScotland said:


> It makes you stink


I know, its a filthy habit lol!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## jimenato

jojo said:


> "MAY" !!!!!!! I have sense and I know of (we all do) many people who have lived or been in smoky environments, with smoking parents and grandparents that who have lived to a ripe old age. To be conclusive it would have to be like drinking bleach - you die!
> 
> Jo xxx


Ah - I see where you're coming from. 

How about "Passive smoking is dangerous?" Do you agree with that one?


----------



## jojo

jimenato said:


> Ah - I see where you're coming from.
> 
> How about "Passive smoking is dangerous?" Do you agree with that one?


Mate, I've no idea! I'm not sure its much worse than sitting in a traffic jam with the car window open, or pickling your liver with long term and copious amounts of alcohol. So I dont think its the greatest threat to mankind! Its just not very pleasant. But with modern air con, it can be illiminated in seconds if necessary

Jo xxx


----------



## Alcalaina

jojo said:


> "MAY" !!!!!!! I have sense and I know of (we all do) many people who have lived or been in smoky environments, with smoking parents and grandparents that who have lived to a ripe old age. To be conclusive it would have to be like drinking bleach - you die!
> 
> Jo xxx


"May" is correct, strictly speaking, if you are looking at effects on the individual. Non-smokers exposed to second-hand smoke are 25-30% more likely to suffer cardiovascular problems than non-smokers who aren't.

World Heart Federation: Passive smoking and heart disease

But on the same logic, smoking MAY give you lung cancer. There are plenty of lifelong smokers who don't get it.

The best way to put it is that passive smoking "significantly increases the risk" of all these conditions.


----------



## jojo

Alcalaina said:


> "May" is correct, strictly speaking, if you are looking at effects on the individual. Non-smokers exposed to second-hand smoke are 25-30% more likely to suffer cardiovascular problems than non-smokers who aren't.
> 
> World Heart Federation: Passive smoking and heart disease
> 
> But on the same logic, smoking MAY give you lung cancer. There are plenty of lifelong smokers who don't get it.
> 
> The best way to put it is that passive smoking "significantly increases the risk" of all these conditions.



PHEW! thats what I was trying to say!

Jo xxx


----------



## MaidenScotland

No may about it... smoking makes you stink


----------



## jimenato

jojo said:


> PHEW! thats what I was trying to say!
> 
> Jo xxx


OK, well you have agreed with Alcalaina that



> passive smoking "significantly increases the risk" of all these conditions.


I hadn't inferred that from your previous posts.


----------



## dunmovin

erm...this might be a silly question, but why don't those at risk from passive smoking take themselves out of the enviroment, where they are exposed? If people want to frequent/ work in estabishments that allow smoking, surely, they are choosing to do so of their own free will. The facts and figures are there for all to see, but still people go into these places, continue to work there and that is their choice.


let's try it from the other side of the debate..... Sally Goodietwoshoes applies for a job as a waitress in a very profitable bar/restaurant/ cafe, but then someone tells her passive smoking can shorten you life... so she aks to her employer " we should ban smoking in here" and he tells her "if I do that, I'll lose a lot of long term customers, profits will sink to a level I can no longer afford to pay you and three others." But Sally being, rightious doesn't stop there(but she holds onto her job) takes her point local government, which sees the National govrenment, bending to the will of the global government, influenced by a vocal, but minority section of the population of the planet.



Now what has happened... ???? Sally's employer has had to fire her and three of her colleagues. Yipee de do.... we have a smoking ban.....more people will survie the danger of passive smoking.........but....more people will have do horrendous things to feed their family. Sally,by her views, cost her her job and threw three others out of gainful employment


----------



## jojo

jimenato said:


> OK, well you have agreed with Alcalaina that
> 
> 
> 
> I hadn't inferred that from your previous posts.


It may significantly increase.....But seriously, who knows??? It maybe anything. 

Once upon a time "the experts" did a study on 22 nations and heart disease. They decided that heart disease was at its lowest in Mediteranean countries. thru correlation, they put it down to the diet, hence the craze for the "Mediteranean diet" a few years ago, remember? However, they totally ignored another study that those same Mediteranean countries smoked the most cigarettes out of all the 22 nations, yet had the lowest incidence of heart disease?!! Now that doesnt really prove anything does it!!????? Cos it could all be down to anything, climate, damp, exercise, over population, pollution, stress, food, airborne chemicals............. They also noticed (well, the last time I worked in the study analysis unit) that since the arrival of fast food restaurants, obesity, heart disease and diabetes was significantly rising in europe/those same mediteranean countries?? Hhhmmmm...........

But back to your point - yeah, maybe a bit of smoke or even alot of smoke aint too healthy or pleasant

So thats it IMO!

Jo xxx


----------



## MaidenScotland

dunmovin said:


> erm...this might be a silly question, but why don't those at risk from passive smoking take themselves out of the enviroment, where they are exposed? If people want to frequent/ work in estabishments that allow smoking, surely, they are choosing to do so of their own free will. The facts and figures are there for all to see, but still people go into these places, continue to work there and that is their choice.
> 
> 
> let's try it from the other side of the debate..... Sally Goodietwoshoes applies for a job as a waitress in a very profitable bar/restaurant/ cafe, but then someone tells her passive smoking can shorten you life... so she aks to her employer " we should ban smoking in here" and he tells her "if I do that, I'll lose a lot of long term customers, profits will sink to a level I can no longer afford to pay you and three others." But Sally being, rightious doesn't stop there(but she holds onto her job) takes her point local government, which sees the National govrenment, bending to the will of the global government, influenced by a vocal, but minority section of the population of the planet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now what has happened... ???? Sally's employer has had to fire her and three of her colleagues. Yipee de do.... we have a smoking ban.....more people will survie the danger of passive smoking.........but....more people will have do horrendous things to feed their family. Sally,by her views, cost her her job and threw three others out of gainful employment









What utter rubbish...... I have never smoked but have had to endure working in offices where everyone else smoked... I needed to work so I had no choice in the matter. If I go into a restaurant here in Cairo and ask for a non smoking table they have often just removed the ashtray. If smokers had been more thoughtful of non smokers then perhaps all this legislation that has been brought in to protect us wouldn't have been needed. I have no problems with anyone smoking I just don't want share of it


----------



## littleredrooster

dunmovin said:


> erm...this might be a silly question, but why don't those at risk from passive smoking take themselves out of the enviroment, where they are exposed? If people want to frequent/ work in estabishments that allow smoking, surely, they are choosing to do so of their own free will. The facts and figures are there for all to see, but still people go into these places, continue to work there and that is their choice.
> 
> 
> let's try it from the other side of the debate..... Sally Goodietwoshoes applies for a job as a waitress in a very profitable bar/restaurant/ cafe, but then someone tells her passive smoking can shorten you life... so she aks to her employer " we should ban smoking in here" and he tells her "if I do that, I'll lose a lot of long term customers, profits will sink to a level I can no longer afford to pay you and three others." But Sally being, rightious doesn't stop there(but she holds onto her job) takes her point local government, which sees the National govrenment, bending to the will of the global government, influenced by a vocal, but minority section of the population of the planet.
> 
> 
> 
> Now what has happened... ???? Sally's employer has had to fire her and three of her colleagues. Yipee de do.... we have a smoking ban.....more people will survie the danger of passive smoking.........but....more people will have do horrendous things to feed their family. Sally,by her views, cost her her job and threw three others out of gainful employment


On what evidence do you base your presumption that three of Sally's colleagues would be fired ?????

From what I have read on various forums relating to the smoking ban, there appears to be a significant number of non smokers who are looking forward with great anticipation to visiting whatever establishments they choose, as often as they choose, without having to encounter the health hazards and associated unpleasant problems caused by smokers.

I have not seen any evidence from elsewhere to suggest that smoking bans are a major cause of loss of business.
Whilst the pub trade has taken a knock in the UK, there are various other obvious factors which could well account for this, and I have seen no sign that the drop in numbers relates only to smokers, but on the contrary to punters right across the board.


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## gus-lopez

& on it goes !!
The Senate adds amendments to the Government's anti-smoking legislation


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## gus-lopez

& on & on, it goes

The Senate adds amendments to the Government's anti-smoking legislation


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## Muddy

dunmovin said:


> erm...this might be a silly question, but why don't those at risk from passive smoking take themselves out of the enviroment


Well I can see your point........ish..
But I've had to drop out of a lot of nights out in the past cos of smoke. It was never really a choice when almost everywhere was full of smoke. It doesn't take many smokers to fog out a place as many pubs, clubs and bars don't have great airflow.
No one should have the right to impose their will on another if that is detrimental to health!

it's possible to apply many analogies to this but at the end of the day people deserve the right to breath clean air, a basic right like clean water, of course many don't have access to that!

What if in the past not using asbestos any more would mean loads of people in that industry loosing their jobs! Well I'm sure they did lose their jobs and hopefully most found new work that didn't damage their health, the ones that survived that is! (in it self a good analogy because the damage to health may not be seen for many years to some)

Using the argument that jobs will be lost is not really up for discussion when something can harm or kill others in the process.
Of course there are dangerous jobs, some have to still do them as they don't have a choice, but we should have a choice to not have something dangerous in a public area/work etc that we can do without.


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## Alcalaina

gus-lopez said:


> & on & on, it goes
> 
> The Senate adds amendments to the Government's anti-smoking legislation


Basically the PP (right-wing party) are trying to block the legislation going through the Spanish senate, presumably in an attempt to capture the "smokers vote".

I will be well pissed off if they succeed, I was counting the days to being able to go out for a drink without my hair and clothes stinking afterwards!


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## Pesky Wesky

dunmovin said:


> erm...this might be a silly question, but why don't those at risk from passive smoking take themselves out of the enviroment, where they are exposed?


I think it's really silly that it's the people who want normal, clean air, are the ones who have to make room for the people who are polluting, doing damage and creating a health hazard. 
The problem comes from the smokers, not the non smokers.
The smokers are the ones who should be looking for their place, not the non smokers


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## littleredrooster

Alcalaina said:


> Basically the PP (right-wing party) are trying to block the legislation going through the Spanish senate, presumably in an attempt to capture the "smokers vote".
> 
> I will be well pissed off if they succeed, I was counting the days to being able to go out for a drink without my hair and clothes stinking afterwards!


So what's the latest ?
Is the planned full across the board ban still expected to begin on time next month ?


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## Alcalaina

littleredrooster said:


> So what's the latest ?
> Is the planned full across the board ban still expected to begin on time next month ?


The proposed amendments will have to be voted on but I can't find out when that will be. The government is still hopeful it will go through, but if the amendments are approved, bars will be able to provide separate smoking areas that staff don't have to enter.

El PP da la vuelta a la ley antitabaco en el Senado · ELPAÍS.com


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## jimenato

Alcalaina said:


> The proposed amendments will have to be voted on but I can't find out when that will be. The government is still hopeful it will go through, but if the amendments are approved, bars will be able to provide separate smoking areas that staff don't have to enter.
> 
> El PP da la vuelta a la ley antitabaco en el Senado · ELPAÍS.com


That would be good.


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## Cat Mad

BUT................. from my own bitter experience in the UK, non smokers DO NOT go out more and non smokers DO NOT drink as much as smokers.

SO............bars WILL close and Spains economy will be that little bit worse!!!!!!!!
Just think of the revenue that alcohol and tobacco brings to the government. If people in general, stop smoking and drink less, that is a massive amount of revenue lost.
AND, it was not that long ago (post 2nd world war) that the government was encouraging everyone, even children, to smoke as it is an appetite suppressant!!!!!
So, what they save on hospital treatment for 'smoking related' diseases is now going to be spent on treating obesity related diseases instead!!!


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## jimenato

Cat Mad said:


> BUT................. from my own bitter experience in the UK, non smokers DO NOT go out more and non smokers DO NOT drink as much as smokers.
> 
> SO............bars WILL close and Spains economy will be that little bit worse!!!!!!!!
> Just think of the revenue that alcohol and tobacco brings to the government. If people in general, stop smoking and drink less, that is a massive amount of revenue lost.
> AND, it was not that long ago (post 2nd world war) that the government was encouraging everyone, even children, to smoke as it is an appetite suppressant!!!!!
> So, what they save on hospital treatment for 'smoking related' diseases is now going to be spent on treating obesity related diseases instead!!!


Are you jojo? I'm just going on the exclamation mark count...


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## Cat Mad

ivorra said:


> Me too.. and I promise to start going to bars when the smoking ban comes in to force and I am sure that there will be many like me prepared to make a fuss if smoking carries on. Objections to the smoke will have a lot more force when the law is on our side


BUT................. from my own bitter experience in the UK, non smokers DO NOT go out more and non smokers DO NOT drink as much as smokers.

SO............bars WILL close and Spains economy will be that little bit worse!!!!!!!!
Just think of the revenue that alcohol and tobacco brings to the government. If people in general, stop smoking and drink less, that is a massive amount of revenue lost.
AND, it was not that long ago (post 2nd world war) that the government was encouraging everyone, even children, to smoke as it is an appetite suppressant!!!!!
So, what they save on hospital treatment for 'smoking related' diseases, is it now going to be spent on treating obesity related diseases instead!!!??????????:mad2::mad2::mad2:


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## jojo

jimenato said:


> Are you jojo? I'm just going on the exclamation mark count...


????????? There's only one of me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Jo xxxxx


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## jimenato

Cat Mad said:


> BUT................. from my own bitter experience in the UK, non smokers DO NOT go out more and non smokers DO NOT drink as much as smokers.
> 
> SO............bars WILL close and Spains economy will be that little bit worse!!!!!!!!
> Just think of the revenue that alcohol and tobacco brings to the government. If people in general, stop smoking and drink less, that is a massive amount of revenue lost.
> AND, it was not that long ago (post 2nd world war) that the government was encouraging everyone, even children, to smoke as it is an appetite suppressant!!!!!
> So, what they save on hospital treatment for 'smoking related' diseases, is it now going to be spent on treating obesity related diseases instead!!!??????????:mad2::mad2::mad2:


Are you jojo again? I'm just going on the exclamation mark count again...


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## Cat Mad

Sorry...lol. my finger goes a bit mad when a topic like this gets me fired up! LOL =D


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## thrax

Why are there two threads on this topic? This is what I just posted on the other one...

I think I posted elsewhere that the statistics in Spain are that about 160 Spaniards die every day due to smoking related deseases and that 4 of those are from secondary smoking. I have never smoked but I do understand the difficulties that those who do experience when it is banned. However, I am totally in favour of this ban. In the UK, apart from what the Daily Mail will have you believe, the ban has had an enormously positive effect. Pubs are closing, and have been for many years, not because of the ban but because of the economic pressures and their failure to keep up with an ever changing market. I don't see too many weatherspoons pubs closing, in fact they are opening more every week, and they hardly attract an upmarket clientelle (sorry if your fave pub is a Weatherspoons - to be honest when I lived in the UK one of my faves was a W pub - but then I have never been described as upmarket). This smoking ban has occurred all over the world and the overall opinion is that it has had a very beneficial effect. I am totally in favour of it. Having said all that, I don't think it will work in Spain where 90% of the population smoke which includes the police who probably won't enforce it. We shall see..... 
__________________


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## Alcalaina

thrax said:


> Why are there two threads on this topic? This is what I just posted on the other one...


This is an old one - we had all moved to the new one, until someone who shall remain nameless (but appears to have a penchant for cats) resurrected this one!


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## jojo

I'm gonna close this one - simply cos I'm getting confused lol

Jo xxx


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