# house purchase



## rob22911

Hi
We have bought a house in Italy and got to know through vendors at the final act with the notarie present that improvements have been carried out without planning permission and the vendors wanted us to sign a declaration eradicating them from any responsibility we didn't of course but we want it sorted out where does that leave us and what is the best course of action? any info would be much appreciated
Thanks
Rob


----------



## italy

the place gets pulled down.. a notary should not have allowed you to buy it at all.. re reading i guess you have not bought the house..its the owners responsibility at their cost to bring in a geometra and get all illegal works carried out either registered properly or the parts removed.. before a sale can go ahead.. by law a notary should not allow you to buy without the house being legal...


----------



## rob22911

Hi Italy
Thanks for your advice we have signed the final act and are awaiting the deeds!
I have emailed the notary explaining we wont be signing any declaration eradicating
the vendors from responsibility but he hasn't replied so would you say the notary should
be directing the vendors to have all works registered properly?
Any suggestions?
Thanks
Rob


----------



## italy

rob22911 said:


> Hi Italy
> Thanks for your advice we have signed the final act and are awaiting the deeds!
> I have emailed the notary explaining we wont be signing any declaration eradicating
> the vendors from responsibility but he hasn't replied so would you say the notary should
> be directing the vendors to have all works registered properly?
> Any suggestions?
> Thanks
> Rob


its illegal in italy for you to have signed a final act to purchase an illegal building.. it should have been put right first.. you are now responsible for the illegal building and all costs... and indeed the building could have to be put back to its original state of legality.. to be honest i cannot believe this has happened.. a nightmare with consequences if what you are saying is correct.. the final act is the deeds.. as soon as they are registered .. which in this case i should think they are rushing to do as this all seems very strange


----------



## rob22911

Hi Italy
We signed the final act on 29th April we still haven't recieved the deeds as yet
also it is english people we have bought from!This situation was brought to light by them at the final act which is why they wanted a declaration drawn up to eradicate them
from responsibility which we have not signed but the notary seemed to be ok with this??
Thanks
Rob


----------



## italy

rob22911 said:


> Hi Italy
> We signed the final act on 29th April we still haven't recieved the deeds as yet
> also it is english people we have bought from!This situation was brought to light by them at the final act which is why they wanted a declaration drawn up to eradicate them
> from responsibility which we have not signed but the notary seemed to be ok with this??
> Thanks
> Rob


you cannot sign a final act in italy with a house that has illegal work on it because that is illegal... the notary is responsible in confirming that the property on the day you sign the final act conforms to all planning and building regulations including a deceleration of the conformity of the services.. water,gas and electricity... and to thermal values ..energy efficiency.. which can be declared as class G which means no real efficiency.. that the property is sold free of all debts ... or any other legal restriction forms part of the contract and if signed without these guarantees means that it does not conform to italian law.. the act can only be signed by you if it is translated into english also by a registered person that also signs to say the translation is correct with another bi lingual person present to check and countersign... who also has to be a non interested party within the sale

however you have signed the final act and i presume there is some mis understanding over what you are saying here ... because it makes no sense that you were allowed to sign.... the deeds as i said are the final act that you signed and you can easikly go to the catasto yourself and get them or check to see if they are registered... its located in teramo if you bought in this province..i seem to remember you did.. you can if easier just go to the notary office where you signed and request a copy of the act..which should be stamped with the catasto registry this had to be done within a certain short period of time of you signing.. and this is what you would call deeds


----------



## rob22911

Hi Italy
The problem we have is the documentation was drawn up on the property without the alterations being documented as the vendors only brought it up at that point and the counter party signatry was one of the estate agents who we bought through so I would say they are an interested party so it appears that was illegal also?
The alterations are internal there is no extention to the property
I hear what your saying the notary should not have let the signing go ahead
It could now look like we bought the property in that condition and we have carried out work without planning permission If you know what I mean!
Thanks
Rob


----------



## italy

rob22911 said:


> Hi Italy
> The problem we have is the documentation was drawn up on the property without the alterations being documented as the vendors only brought it up at that point and the counter party signatry was one of the estate agents who we bought through so I would say they are an interested party so it appears that was illegal also?
> The alterations are internal there is no extention to the property
> I hear what your saying the notary should not have let the signing go ahead
> It could now look like we bought the property in that condition and we have carried out work without planning permission If you know what I mean!
> Thanks
> Rob


rob 

i think that you should really sort it out asap as your house with the changes made already does make you responsible and will have to be rectified.. it really is something that should not have happened and is indeed fraudulent


----------



## rob22911

italy said:


> rob
> 
> i think that you should really sort it out asap as your house with the changes made already does make you responsible and will have to be rectified.. it really is something that should not have happened and is indeed fraudulent


Hi Italy
I agree we do need to sort it out as it is fraudulent but it's where to start thats the problem?
Rob


----------



## bunty16

rob22911 said:


> Hi Italy
> I agree we do need to sort it out as it is fraudulent but it's where to start thats the problem?
> Rob


You need to find an independant lawyer, and get accurate advice/facts. I am not saying the advice given is not right as I have not had the same problems, but I was led to believe it is not illegal to have an interested party as your interpreter, but probably best not to use the agency staff. We can all be wise after the event. I think if more people had answered this thread you would get a different range of advice. 

You need to ask why is it illegal? as you say it was not the outside of your home that has had work done. A lot of people have completely changed the inside of their homes and this has not caused them problems. What is illegal is someone without the right qualifications doing electrics. 
Why have the previous owners not told you the reason why it is illegal, there would not have been the language barrier.

I hope it can be sorted out, again, get the mayor on your side. Are there any other english speaking people where you live?


----------



## italy

bunty16 said:


> You need to find an independant lawyer, and get accurate advice/facts. I am not saying the advice given is not right as I have not had the same problems, but I was led to believe it is not illegal to have an interested party as your interpreter, but probably best not to use the agency staff. We can all be wise after the event. I think if more people had answered this thread you would get a different range of advice.
> 
> You need to ask why is it illegal? as you say it was not the outside of your home that has had work done. A lot of people have completely changed the inside of their homes and this has not caused them problems. What is illegal is someone without the right qualifications doing electrics.
> Why have the previous owners not told you the reason why it is illegal, there would not have been the language barrier.
> 
> I hope it can be sorted out, again, get the mayor on your side. Are there any other english speaking people where you live?


using a person involved in the to translate is not wrong although the notary should make sure you are aware that this can create serious problems .. as regards what was allowed in the past and what occurs today there are serious problems if the internal layout of your property is changed and the changes are not registered.. to be honest electrics are the least of your worries although they have to conform.. the whole system here is much tighter now as regards final acts and you declare in several areas that you are not attempting to defraud anyone.. ie regarding agency payments or anyone else for that matter.. all payments recorded and by assigned checks.. more importantly catastal plans have to reflect the existing layout and so if a room is registered there as a garage say then it has to be a garage otherwise you are defrauding the comune of tax or and you have to sign to say the property as seen matches the plans.. buildings now a days have all been checked from the air and people were supposed to register them and the internal spaces over a year ago now with details of their use.. if this has not been done correctly its the person that signs the act that is the most vulnerable as the purchaser because by signing to say it all matches what is registered its assumed that you are the one attempting to avoid taxation..people treat these final acts with little respect .. talking about foreigners .. and believe the old and false story that any discrepancies are the italian way...it was barely true before and now its a complete lie and if a property cannot be sold without straining the truth of its actual state you should forget about it...


----------



## rob22911

bunty16 said:


> You need to find an independant lawyer, and get accurate advice/facts. I am not saying the advice given is not right as I have not had the same problems, but I was led to believe it is not illegal to have an interested party as your interpreter, but probably best not to use the agency staff. We can all be wise after the event. I think if more people had answered this thread you would get a different range of advice.
> 
> You need to ask why is it illegal? as you say it was not the outside of your home that has had work done. A lot of people have completely changed the inside of their homes and this has not caused them problems. What is illegal is someone without the right qualifications doing electrics.
> Why have the previous owners not told you the reason why it is illegal, there would not have been the language barrier.
> 
> I hope it can be sorted out, again, get the mayor on your side. Are there any other english speaking people where you live?


Hi Italy
Thanks for that I think the previous owners know full well its illegal and wanted to pull a fast one!!
Yes there are other english speaking people here and I will look into speaking to the mayor also see what happens
Thanks
Rob


----------



## Bartolus

Hi Rob

First and foremost you are under no obligation to sign any declaration absolving the vendor from responsibity so don't do it under any circumstances. 

From the information you have provided, the property can be described as one that is parzialmente abusivo. This has implications. This means that your options, as well as the matter regarding responsibility - even as far as the Notary is concerned - cannot really be discussed in general terms and you really do need to seek independent legal advice, as other members have already suggested. In order to safeguard your position, the lawyer will need to examine all the relevant documentation, including the final deed of sale.

A common problem here in Italy is that a lot of foreign nationals do not fully understand the Italian legal system and trade on the basis of false assumptions as to their legal position. 

It is important to note that although the main sources of law that regulate real estate contracts in Italy are the provisions set out in book 4 of the Civil Code, these are supplemented by many other rules and special laws. This can ceate confusion as there are in fact, significant areas of divergence in many fundamental points between rules under common law systems and those provided for by Italian Law. 

Therefore, not everything is clear cut as it may seem and that is why it is important to seek relevant professional advice before signing any documents and part with any cash.


----------



## italy

Bartolus said:


> Hi Rob
> 
> First and foremost you are under no obligation to sign any declaration absolving the vendor from responsibity so don't do it under any circumstances.
> 
> From the information you have provided, the property can be described as one that is parzialmente abusivo. This has implications. This means that your options, as well as the matter regarding responsibility - even as far as the Notary is concerned - cannot really be discussed in general terms and you really do need to seek independent legal advice, as other members have already suggested. In order to safeguard your position, the lawyer will need to examine all the relevant documentation, including the final deed of sale.
> 
> A common problem here in Italy is that a lot of foreign nationals do not fully understand the Italian legal system and trade on the basis of false assumptions as to their legal position.
> 
> It is important to note that although the main sources of law that regulate real estate contracts in Italy are the provisions set out in book 4 of the Civil Code, these are supplemented by many other rules and special laws. This can ceate confusion as there are in fact, significant areas of divergence in many fundamental points between rules under common law systems and those provided for by Italian Law.
> 
> Therefore, not everything is clear cut as it may seem and that is why it is important to seek relevant professional advice before signing any documents and part with any cash.


its always good to use your own independent legal advice but it does have a very high cost here.. do not bother with UK based ones.. a waste of time and money... many think that the cost does not represent good value if you are purchasing say a 50k property.. and are happy to take that risk.. what is there to loose .. the point is that it could be a lot in terms of never being able to live in or make use of whatever you have bought.. ok an extreme warning but i have seen people that have sunk a bit of money into a place had second thoughts about the life here and the property is unsaleable..

i would say now that many notaries do take more time about looking into the usual fraud practices and in general with the laws here having become tighter regarding property and any work done.. including inside checks are often more vigorous than they once were.. 

i do believe the above advice from Bart is very good and should be followed but life is often not like that... i would say a good solution is often to check with a recommended local geometra especially if you have the language skills.. a lot of what is wrong can be handled after the fact although the initial question made me see red about how some of these agencies in hand with notaries act.. they are worse in my view than the informal ones that always know someone with a house for sale and offer to help you.. an agent under law here is obliged to arrive at a fair and reasonable sale in both price and quality of work.. this was obviously totally ignored .. anyway presume its been sorted out now but the whole thread provides an excellent warning for those that are starting out.. the forum with its strict rules about what can be said or advertised and run by a pretty fair minded group of mods provides an excellent point of reference unlike many where often the advise given is completely out of date or completely wrong.. where you get a close group that seems intent on selling whoever joins some service or property .. skipping any taxes or registration here.. a suer way of getting yourself into lots of probs. its good to have a balanced and well thought out place to trade views


----------



## Bartolus

italy said:


> its always good to use your own independent legal advice but it does have a very high cost here.. do not bother with UK based ones.. a waste of time and money... many think that the cost does not represent good value if you are purchasing say a 50k property.. and are happy to take that risk.. what is there to loose .. the point is that it could be a lot in terms of never being able to live in or make use of whatever you have bought.. ok an extreme warning but i have seen people that have sunk a bit of money into a place had second thoughts about the life here and the property is unsaleable..
> 
> i would say now that many notaries do take more time about looking into the usual fraud practices and in general with the laws here having become tighter regarding property and any work done.. including inside checks are often more vigorous than they once were..
> 
> i do believe the above advice from Bart is very good and should be followed but life is often not like that... i would say a good solution is often to check with a recommended local geometra especially if you have the language skills.. a lot of what is wrong can be handled after the fact although the initial question made me see red about how some of these agencies in hand with notaries act.. they are worse in my view than the informal ones that always know someone with a house for sale and offer to help you.. an agent under law here is obliged to arrive at a fair and reasonable sale in both price and quality of work.. this was obviously totally ignored .. anyway presume its been sorted out now but the whole thread provides an excellent warning for those that are starting out.. the forum with its strict rules about what can be said or advertised and run by a pretty fair minded group of mods provides an excellent point of reference unlike many where often the advise given is completely out of date or completely wrong.. where you get a close group that seems intent on selling whoever joins some service or property .. skipping any taxes or registration here.. a suer way of getting yourself into lots of probs. its good to have a balanced and well thought out place to trade views


Yes it is always better to appoint a local lawyer who not only has local insight, but who has an understanding of cross border matters as well. I know that this may sound like a difficult task, but there are a few about.

Sometimes the use of a local geometra on its own is not enough because he/she won't necessarily be up to speed with the changing laws. Too many prolific and messy lawmakers flood the country with conflicting rules; the courts are overburdened and constantly on the verge of a breakdown; citizens are confused and dissatisfied with the legal system; almost every second day - so, if Italian law can be difficult for Italian lawyers, imagine what it is like for common lawyers, let alone the general public, especially citizens from other countries.

A good lawyer will work with a good architect or geometra to ensure that all the technical norms are adhered to - as well as manage the contractual issues. In any case, situations such as Rob's can be avoided from the outset if one carries out appropriate due diligence. if Caveat Emptor is the cornerstone of British conveyancing, it should been even more important over here. 

Some buyers want 100% guarantees and do not feel comfortable with any of the unspoken rules of buying a house. Yet, many seem ready to take the plunge and just rush in with hastily prepared plans whilst knowing next to nothing about Italy, its language, culture, laws, contractual liabilities and amount of red tape involved. In the end it is up to them, but remember that the law here doesn't excuse ignorance and if a case does end up in court, it would be unwise to say to a judge as part of your defence that you weren't aware or that you didn't understand your rights and obligations under Italian law.

Buying a house in Italy is an investment, not only in financial terms, but an emotional one as well. It is not a trivial matter, so the buyer should do what he/she can to mitigate the risks.


----------

