# Fisticuffs over Gibraltar



## Nugget_Hound (Jun 13, 2013)

what are people's thoughts on this please, apologies if it's already been posted!!!

Now Spain considers levying 50 euro tax on vehicles entering or leaving Gibraltar as tourists continue to swelter in queues at border | Mail Online

Are we heading for a fallout or is it just more hot air?

Peace!!


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

Nugget_Hound said:


> what are people's thoughts on this please, apologies if it's already been posted!!!
> 
> Now Spain considers levying 50 euro tax on vehicles entering or leaving Gibraltar as tourists continue to swelter in queues at border | Mail Online
> 
> ...


From the article ................
Such a charge could impose punitive costs on Gibraltarians who regularly commute into Spain to work.

They got that bit wrong as its the Spanish workers who will suffer from those self serving cretins in Madrid.


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## el romeral (May 8, 2012)

Anything to deflect attention away from their own mess and problems. Politicians here are no better than those in Argentina.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

Nugget_Hound said:


> what are people's thoughts on this please, apologies if it's already been posted!!!
> 
> Now Spain considers levying 50 euro tax on vehicles entering or leaving Gibraltar as tourists continue to swelter in queues at border | Mail Online
> 
> ...


That was a link from the DM, who said thousands of Brits were leaving Spain because of the asset declaration on another reported issue. They got their facts totally wrong then as no one had any intention of leaving, so I shall wait and see on this one.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Aron said:


> That was a link from the DM, who said thousands of Brits were leaving Spain because of the asset declaration on another reported issue. They got their facts totally wrong then as no one had any intention of leaving, so I shall wait and see on this one.


The basic facts are correct. Six hours wait to cross the border in 40C heat..No thought for the elderly or families with chidren.
Gibraltar does not want to be part of Spain. As for saying gib is part of the Spanish peninsula, so is Portugal.
And don'tlet us forget Ceuta and Melilla.
No, Rajoy, butt out, hands off Gibraltar, do the job you were elected to do, that is, get Spain back to work!!


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Aron said:


> That was a link from the DM, who said thousands of Brits were leaving Spain because of the asset declaration on another reported issue. They got their facts totally wrong then as no one had any intention of leaving, so I shall wait and see on this one.


How do you know no one had any intention of leaving?What is your evidence?


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> The basic facts are correct. Six hours wait to cross the border in 40C heat..No thought for the elderly or families with chidren.
> Gibraltar does not want to be part of Spain. As for saying gib is part of the Spanish peninsula, so is Portugal.
> And don'tlet us forget Ceuta and Melilla.
> No, Rajoy, butt out, hands off Gibraltar, do the job you were elected to do, that is, get Spain back to work!!


I'm not disputing the basic facts, just that in any dispute many other facts become blurred. There has always been tension on this issue. I'm old enough to remember the closure of the border in the 60's. none of us want to see that happen again, not in this day and age, and certainly with us being in the EU.
The little bit I know, both sides are ratcheting up the tensions. Neither Gibraltar or Spain need this dispute. Every dispute can only be resolved diplomatically, I just hope politicians get it right!


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

extranjero said:


> How do you know no one had any intention of leaving?What is your evidence?


Did the report I read have any evidence. They produced figures not me. I know a lot of Brits up and down the coast, no one else knew of anyone having left or planned to leave. Life went on as usual. The asset declaration came and went and life went on regardless. I'm certain if 200,000 Brits had returned home it would be a bigger story now.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> How do you know no one had any intention of leaving?What is your evidence?


Here we go again now you are adding Gibraltar to your list of woes affecting British immigrants in Spain?..
What is your interest in this 'immigrants leaving Spain' seeming obsession?
Why stay if you are dissatisfied?
Most of us are happy and here to stay, you know..


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> As for saying gib is part of the Spanish peninsula, so is Portugal.


Out of geographic curiosity, how is Gibraltar "part" of the British Isles?


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mysticsmick said:


> Out of geographic curiosity, how is Gibraltar "part" of the British Isles?


It obviously isn't.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

mysticsmick said:


> Out of geographic curiosity, how is Gibraltar "part" of the British Isles?


I don't recall saying it was. But one of the dubious claims of the Spanish Government is that Gibraltar is geographically part of Spain. Of course it isn't part of the British Isles but it is an independent territory whose inhabitants have voted overwhelmingly for their status quo. 
Self-determination isn't just for African or Asian peoples, is it? It also applies to people whose ancestors have inhabited the Rock for centuries.
And not all of them are wealthy tax-dodgers either.
This is sabre-rattling of the most transparent kind by a desperate right-wing government trapped in an economic mire by its sheer ineptitude in handling the economy. Who on earth would want to deliver the citizens of Gibraltar into the hands of the PP. where ghosts of Franco still stalk?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> How do you know no one had any intention of leaving?What is your evidence?


Could you explain why you think any British immigrant would want to leave Spain because of this latest spat over Gibraltar?


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

In spite of our best efforts to dissuade people seeking work to come and live in Spain, they still turn up. I recall seeing one article in DM which claimed more than a million British ex-pats had left Spain in the past five years. Which is interesting because that is more than are registered here. If those who are unregistered (and there may be millions of them!) depart, who would know? Where we are we know of about 6 ex-pats leaving Spain, only one family is returning to UK but plan on coming back when their children have completed UK uni, but the numbers arriving in our small neck of the woods (I hate that cliché) outweighs those leaving.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> I don't recall saying it was. But one of the dubious claims of the Spanish Government is that Gibraltar is geographically part of Spain. Of course it isn't part of the British Isles but it is an independent territory whose inhabitants have voted overwhelmingly for their status quo.
> Self-determination isn't just for African or Asian peoples, is it? It also applies to people whose ancestors have inhabited the Rock for centuries.
> And not all of them are wealthy tax-dodgers either.
> This is sabre-rattling of the most transparent kind by a desperate right-wing government trapped in an economic mire by its sheer ineptitude in handling the economy. Who on earth would want to deliver the citizens of Gibraltar into the hands of the PP. where ghosts of Franco still stalk?


I think it's more than that. Fishing grounds and who has a right to fish where is causing this present dispute. I remember the cod war in 1971 when the UK had a disagreement with Iceland. It was feared then thousands of fishermen would be put out of business. In those days I was a fishmonger. The price of cod doubled. The British sent out warships because Iceland extended their waters for fishing rights. Until they get an agreement over fishing rights in this dispute, the problems will continue. It is an emotive situation for both sides.
It is now time for politicians to find an agreement. Politicians talk a great story, lets see some action and get this resolved fot the sake of ordinary people.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> No. But one of the dubious claoms of the Spanish Government is that Gibraltar is grographicslly part of Spain. Of course it isn't part of the British Isles but it is an independent territory whose inhabitants have voted overwhelmingly for their status quo.
> Self-determination isn't just for frican or Asian peoples. It also applies to people whose ancestors have inhabited the Rock for centuries.
> And not all of them are wealthy tax-dodgers either.


It's not actually independent.

You are quite right about the indigenous Gibraltarians - many of the ones I come across are very far from wealthy.

One of the sticks used by Spain to poke the situation is that fact that Gibraltar is on the UN Special Committee on Decolonisation. This rather strange and ineffective little committee has a list of territories for decolonisation that seems to me to be completely arbitrary and appears to take no notice whatever of the wishes of the peoples involved.

This committee seems to feel that colonies and colonisation are always bad and should be dissolved.

I have no idea what it's definition of 'colony' is nor why Gibraltar and The Falklands are deemed to be colonies yet the Canaries and Ceuta and Melilla aren't. Nor for that matter Hawaii and Alaska.

I have no idea why two territories such as the UK and Gibraltar shouldn't have whatever constitutional arrangement between them they like as long as it suits them both nor why anyone else (Spain excepted) should be in the slightest bit interested in it.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

jimenato said:


> It's not actually independent.
> 
> You are quite right about the indigenous Gibraltarians - many of the ones I come across are very far from wealthy.
> 
> ...


Here I should have said 



> Gibraltar is on *the list of* UN the Special Committee on Decolonisation


It is certainly not on the committee.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> It's not actually independent.
> 
> You are quite right about the indigenous Gibraltarians - many of the ones I come across are very far from wealthy.
> 
> ...


Gibraltar is independent in the sense that it has its own legislature, though, isn't it.
It's a Crown Possession or something similar, afaik.

Is Guantanamo Bay on the list, I wonder?


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Shades of the Falklands all over again.

Inept Government wishing to draw the peoples attention from their ineptitude starts playing with a shiny object and the people being dumb a$$es all watch the pretty light dancing around rather than what the politicians are doing with their money.

Besides, if you charge everyone 40 euros to cross into/from Gibralter just think about the amount of money they will be raking in. 

Hmm deficit, what deficit?


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Gibraltar is independent in the sense that it has its own legislature, though, isn't it.
> It's a Crown Possession or something similar, afaik.
> 
> Is Guantanamo Bay on the list, I wonder?


According to the UK it's a British Overseas Territory.

You are right it is largely self governing, the UK is responsible for Defence and Foreign Policy.

I have no idea what constitutes a 'colony' on that list - it seems completely arbitrary.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

If there were anywhere within a radius of 50km of Estepona where one could buy frozen Quorn mince, sausages etc. I'd never go to Gibraltar again...


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> If there were anywhere within a radius of 50km of Estepona where one could buy frozen Quorn mince, sausages etc. I'd never go to Gibraltar again...


I rather like it - but only to visit once in a while - I couldn't live there.


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## thomas541 (Jul 7, 2013)

Gibraltar minister: Spain acting like North Korea - Telegraph

hi
what would be the average daily cross bording here in terms of peopel ?
what amount would the Spanish collect in fees ? they would be better off speeding it to collect max amount of fees rather slowing people, searching cars etc no ?
if the reason is just to put money in the gvt coffers.

I don't see a Falklands story here though. this is about money. and Spain needs a ton of it.

anyone notices any anti Brit behaviour on the Costa Del Sol ? they better not behave like that against foreigners who SPEND money and pay taxes !!

probably Spain gvt wants a hold on the "fiscal paradise" that Gribaltar is...
they want foreigners to put their money in the (bankrupt..) Spanish banks. which is very risky, imagine if/when Spain leaves the euros: you could lose up to 80% over 1 year of devaluation if history has a meaning (Argentine, Russia etc devaluations) if your assets are in Spanish banks( I think less risky to have your money in non Spanish banks in Spain and in other currencies than the euro, at least part of it).

thoughts ?


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Here we go again now you are adding Gibraltar to your list of woes affecting British immigrants in Spain?..
> What is your interest in this 'immigrants leaving Spain' seeming obsession?
> Why stay if you are dissatisfied?
> Most of us are happy and here to stay, you know..


I merely commented on the fact that Aron wrote that no one had any intention of leaving because of the Assets law-there is no way anyone would be able to say that;how could they know? I should think it may well have been a factor, last straw... and all that.
We know some posters(if rich enough) on here will stay whatever happens,even if pensions were frozen, stopped, their houses robbed, demolished,victims of corruption, injustice etc, even if they had to go, they would be dragging their sorry a...s to the airport screaming We love Spain!"


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> If there were anywhere within a radius of 50km of Estepona where one could buy frozen Quorn mince, sausages etc. I'd never go to Gibraltar again...


I buy quorn mince in a local English shop, but it's 90 minutes from Estepona. I haven't bought any for 2 years but I was told they still sell it


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

extranjero said:


> I merely commented on the fact that Aron wrote that no one had any intention of leaving because of the Assets law-there is no way anyone would be able to say that;how could they know? I should think it may well have been a factor, last straw... and all that.
> We know some posters(if rich enough) on here will stay whatever happens,even if pensions were frozen, stopped, their houses robbed, demolished,victims of corruption, injustice etc, even if they had to go, they would be dragging their sorry a...s to the airport screaming We love Spain!"


I'm rich, not because I am wealthy. I'm rich because I have quality of life. I live in a wonderful country, I like the local people, I walk every morning and everyone I meet talks to me.
I'm sorry if my comments made you feel bad. When I made that comment, I was talking generally, but does it matter, seriously!


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Aron said:


> I'm rich, not because I am wealthy. I'm rich because I have quality of life. I live in a wonderful country, I like the local people, I walk every morning and everyone I meet talks to me.
> I'm sorry if my comments made you feel bad. When I made that comment, I was talking generally, but does it matter, seriously!


Your comments do not make me feel bad-I am saying you have no way of knowing if the Assets law contributed to people leaving Spain-you cannot say no one had any intention of leaving unless you asked every single ex pat!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> I merely commented on the fact that Aron wrote that no one had any intention of leaving because of the Assets law-there is no way anyone would be able to say that;how could they know? I should think it may well have been a factor, last straw... and all that.
> We know some posters(if rich enough) on here will stay whatever happens,even if pensions were frozen, stopped, their houses robbed, demolished,victims of corruption, injustice etc, even if they had to go, they would be dragging their sorry a...s to the airport screaming We love Spain!"


Well, why not stay on in this lovely country if you can afford to? Do you really think Spain is the only country in the world where there is corruption, house-breaking, injustice, bent coppers, bad drains, cracked pavements, barking dogs, irritating tax inspectors, dog poo on pavements, ugly people, dead cats in the streets, wife beaters, rats and mice, noisy neighbours, ugly people, dead cats, moaning foreigners and anything else you might think of as a reason for going back to wherever??

I don't 'love' Spain. It's a country, comme les autres, but the place I intend to spend the rest of my life in. I dare say I would have settled equally well in France, Germany or Italy. I'm not rich - but then you seem to think that every other immigrant here is an impoverished OAP subsisting on bread and marge or cowering in fear of Hacienda grabbing their assets

We get accused of 'negativity' when we tell people the truth about the economic situation here. But imo the real negativity lies in your kind of glass half empty thinking.

Do you ever sit back on a summer evening with a cold glass of whatever takes your fancy and look out at the sea, mountains or whatever view you have and just think how lucky you are to be able to live in such a beautiful country with such friendly, warm people?? 
That's what most of us contented immigrants do and we don't have to be 'rich' to feel like that.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

thomas541 said:


> Gibraltar minister: Spain acting like North Korea - Telegraph
> 
> hi
> what would be the average daily cross bording here in terms of peopel ?
> ...


Ten thousand Spanish - yes, Spanish - people cross the border to work in Spain each day. Does the Spanish Government seriously intend to charge these people 100 euros each day to go to work when these people live in a part of Spain with unemployment at over 30%?? 

Gibraltar's fiscal arrangements, whatever one may think of them, have nothing to do with Spain. What is wrong is that many people are resident in Spain yet rent a property in Gibraltar in order to benefit from lower tax rates. The Chief Minister of Gibraltar has agreed that this is wrong and has promised to co-operate with the Spanish authorities to stamp it out.

As for 'anti Brit behaviour'.....most ordinary Spaniards couldn't give a toss about Gibraltar. They have more pressing concerns such as trying to find work whilst subsisting on the poverty-level unemployment benefit they receive.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

extranjero said:


> Your comments do not make me feel bad-I am saying you have no way of knowing if the Assets law contributed to people leaving Spain-you cannot say no one had any intention of leaving unless you asked every single ex pat!


We know that, time to move on!


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2013)

*Current colonies in existence*

*Of Chile:*
Easter Island is a special territory incorporated to Chile. Today, natives have full rights as Chilean citizens.

*Of France:*
French Polynesia
Saint Barthélemy
Saint Martin
Saint Pierre and Miquelon
Wallis and Futuna
New Caledonia
Réunion

*Of Morocco:*
Río de Oro/Western Sahara is considered by many to be a colony of Morocco, and the last colony on the African continent.

*Of Norway:*
Svalbardr
Jan Mayen
Bouvet Island

*Of the United Kingdom:*
The British Overseas Territories - such as the British Virgin Islands, Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands - are Crown Colonies. Many of the larger, populated territories, have their own political systems but are still under the sovereignty of the United Kingdom and are managed by Governors.

*Of the United States:*
Similar to Puerto Rico, American Samoa, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands and the United States Virgin Islands are considered by some to have a colonial relationship with the United States because their citizens are subject to the laws of the United States Congress passed without their consent. These territories, along with Puerto Rico, are known as unincorporated territories.
Puerto Rico's subjection to US sovereignty is considered by many countries to constitute a colonial imposition because Puerto Ricans are subject to laws passed by the United States Congress without their consent, due to constitutional exclusion from electoral participation in elections of the officials that hold ultimate sovereignty over their national government, however in 1917, the US Congress passed the Jones-Shafroth Act, popularly called the Jones Act, which granted Puerto Ricans U.S. citizenship. According to the US President's Task Force Report on the Political Status of Puerto Rico the US may dispose of Puerto Rico by transferring it to another sovereign country as a mere disposition of property. In a 2007 letter addressed to then-United States Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, the then-Governor of Puerto Rico, Aníbal Acevedo Vilá, accused the US of having deceived the United Nations and the international community in 1953, when it succeeded in having the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico recognized as a provisional decolonized status subject to continued monitoring; Acevedo Vilá stated that it was ironic that this is the position taken by the Government of Iran and that the Governor of Puerto Rico will soon feel forced to support Iran's claims regarding the US government's alleged-hypocritical actions with regards to Puerto Rico's "colonial" status. On June 15, 2009, the United Nations Special Committee on Decolonization approved a draft resolution calling on the Government of the United States to expedite a process that would allow the Puerto Rican people to exercise fully their inalienable right to self-determination and independence. Subsequent actions by the governments of the United States and Puerto Rico paved the way for the Puerto Rican status referendum, 2012, which was held on November 6, 2012.

*Of New Zealand:*
Tokelau is a colony of New Zealand.


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> Gibraltar is independent in the sense that it has its own legislature, though, isn't it. It's a Crown Possession or something similar, afaik.
> 
> Is Guantanamo Bay on the list, I wonder?


The US first seized Guantanamo Bay and established a naval base there in 1898 during the Spanish-American War. In 1903, the US and Cuba signed a lease granting the US permission to use the land as a coaling and naval station. The lease satisfied the Platt Amendment; this amendment stated a naval base at "certain specific points agreed upon by the President of the United States" was needed to "enable the United States to maintain independence of Cuba." The US and Cuba signed a treaty in 1934, granting the US a perpetual lease; private enterprise is not allowed under the treaty. Both the US and Cuba must agree on any termination of the lease.

One can only hope that what is occurring now (violations of numerous international laws regarding human rights) will end, but this is only likely if the american population stops being obsessed with being attacked... which it seems to me will only cease when the US stops trying to dominate the world.


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