# Cruz Roja Espa�ola



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

*Cruz Roja Española*

As you probably know, unemployment benefit runs out in Spain after a certain time and there are new restrictions on who can receive the emergency payment of €400 per family per month - which you can only get for 6 months anyway. After that you are totally reliant on family or charity.

Not everyone is comfortable about giving cash to people begging on the street or in supermarket doorways, or giving money to charities run by the Catholic Church. However the Spanish Red Cross are active in providing food parcels and other assistance for people who have been made jobless and/or homeless by the economic crisis.

It is very easy to make a one-off or regular donation online, by debit or credit card, bank transfer or direct debit. Every little helps! I've just donated the proceeds from the prints and cards I sold during our Gallery Trail. Can you help too? 

*Click here to donate online*
(Select "Donativos Afectados Crisis en España" on the right)


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## Twain (May 24, 2009)

The effectiveness of such organizations is not always what you think.

As little as 25% of the income goes to the purpose.
The rest goes to administration.
In other cases, fortunately, as much as 80% is used for the purpose.
As a rule, 65% goes to the purpose if one is lucky.
One never knows.

The annual television collection in Norway in 2011 collected 211 million.
50 million went to salaries and administration, in Norway.
In addition, add the losses in all the other levels of the organization before it reaches those who need the money.

Next time you give 10 euros to a man who beg on the street, remember to deduct 45% handling fee. That's what the big organizations do.

In light of that, I think most people would rather choose to help where they can locally?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> As you probably know, unemployment benefit runs out in Spain after a certain time and there are new restrictions on who can receive the emergency payment of €400 per family per month - which you can only get for 6 months anyway. After that you are totally reliant on family or charity.
> 
> Not everyone is comfortable about giving cash to people begging on the street or in supermarket doorways, or giving money to charities run by the Catholic Church. However the Spanish Red Cross are active in providing food parcels and other assistance for people who have been made jobless and/or homeless by the economic crisis.
> 
> ...


We have been donating food and clothing to Caritas for a couple of years. The Catholic Church is as good an organisation as any other, really.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Twain said:


> The effectiveness of such organizations is not always what you think.
> 
> As little as 25% of the income goes to the purpose.
> The rest goes to administration.
> ...


I agree entirely, having seen a UK tv programme recently which examined the deductions made for 'expenses' by big charities.

A lot is being done locally to help the needy...by our local church that concentrates on our village, by the comedor social in Estepona which is run by volunteers and gets donations from supermarkets and other such businesses and by various small local efforts.

I prefer to help within the community, whether my help goes to humans or to other animals.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Of course people must make their own choice, and of course NGOs have admin costs. La Cruz Roja Española spends about 12.5% on admin, and has 155,000 volunteers. I can live with that.

I didn't expect to see such mean-spirited comments on here, but if anyone DOES want to donate, now or in future, at least they have details to hand.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Of course people must make their own choice, and of course NGOs have admin costs. La Cruz Roja Española spends about 12.5% on admin, and has 155,000 volunteers. I can live with that.
> 
> I didn't expect to see such mean-spirited comments on here, but if anyone DOES want to donate, now or in future, at least they have details to hand.


It's not mean-spirited to point out that many oganisations take quite large slices of donation money for admin and other purposes, is it

And I hope you're not including me under the 'mean spirited' as I have been giving and working actively to help people for well over forty years...

Just to put the record straight about a post some time ago which stated that the Catholic Church gives only to practising Catholics, although I know from first-hand expereience that isn't true, here's a statement with much much more authority:
*
Pope Benedict XVI clearly states that we help those who are suffering because we are Catholic, not because they are. “Those who practise charity in the Church’s name will never seek to impose the Church’s faith upon others.” )[/I]

So agnostics, atheists, anyone who wishes to give to your local Caritas need not fear that help will be given 'selectively', only to the 'faithful'.

Local Caritas branches often have a good knowledge of who is in need of what. Our local branch not only donates food and clothing but also pays for medicines and school supplies as well as driving people to visit friends and relatives in hospital.

They do not deduct for admin expenses.*


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Below is a list of charities and the amount they spent on admin, per pound donated.

Action Aid: 20p 
British Heart Foundation: 17p 
Cancer Research UK: 20p 
RSPCA: 10p 
Greenpeace: 6p 
Help For Heroes: Nothing. And they currently top up every £1 donated by 10p via merchandise sales. 
NSPCC: 23.6p 
Red Cross: 15p 
Shelter: 1p 
St Mungo's: 15p


That's a list of UK charities....the amount deducted by NSPCC is imo rather excessive.
I used to donate each month via credit card to several charities but stopped when I found out how much was going to administrative expenses. 

I think that direct giving to local charities where volunteers work for free is the best way to help local need but larger organisations such as Red Cross, Cafod and other such get to places local groups can't. They obviously need to have an efficient organisation to do so and that costs money.

As Alca says, the important thing is to give to whichever organisation, local, national or supra-national, you think the most effective. But it's useful to know just how much of youreuro or £ goes to those in need.


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Just to put the record straight about a post some time ago which stated that the Catholic Church gives only to practising Catholics, although I know from first-hand expereience that isn't true, here's a statement with much much more authority:
> *
> Pope Benedict XVI clearly states that we help those who are suffering because we are Catholic, not because they are. “Those who practise charity in the Church’s name will never seek to impose the Church’s faith upon others.” )[/I]
> 
> ...


*

Well, the reality is that the Catholic Church is not exactly poor, is it? In Cadiz, where more than 20,000 people marched recently to highlight the appalling effects of the current Govt. cuts on individuals and public services, the issue of the Vatican's enormous wealth is a very topical issue, indeed! 

Also, the Church has been named as a key agent, as recently as the 1980's, in the theft of babies from their mother's hospital beds - for adoption by Franco's sympathisers - fees were paid, and at least one nun has been put on trial in past weeks.

Many young Spaniards are still searching for their birth families - as a BBC documentary highlighted! I don't put any trust in any Church - far better the Red Cross - or the Spanish Cruz Roja. This organisation is known to act fairly - it has an international reputation for fairness - the Catholic Church, sorry to say, definitely does not!

GC*


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

Hi - as an adjunct to my previous post, here's a link to an article on the subject of the estimated annual cost to Spain of the Catholic Church in this country - thought to be around 6 billion euros. So, when we are advised that the Church's charitable organisations redistribute every centimo donated to their coffers, we should remember that their own costs are already being met by Spanish taxpayers!


The international organisation which published this text is 'Concordatwatch' which seeks a separation between states and churches, worldwide. 

Concordat Watch - Spain | More than €6 billion of public money reported to go to the Catholic Church or its organisations in Spain

GC


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## neddie (Jun 11, 2012)

....i have been told that the Salvation Army does not "skim" donations but i have not verified that. I don't know if the SA operates in Spain.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - as an adjunct to my previous post, here's a link to an article on the subject of the estimated annual cost to Spain of the Catholic Church in this country - thought to be around 6 billion euros. So, when we are advised that the Church's charitable organisations redistribute every centimo donated to their coffers, we should remember that their own costs are already being met by Spanish taxpayers!
> 
> 
> The international organisation which published this text is 'Concordatwatch' which seeks a separation between states and churches, worldwide.
> ...


I fail to see the connection between your post and mine.....

I did not say that the Catholic Church donated every cent received. My point was that local Caritas organisations such as the one in my village collect and redistribute *without any middleman* unlike organisatiions with a wider scope which of course will need organisation and therefore will incur costs. The work done internationally by Cafod and Caritas requires a network of professionals.

The Catholic Church is an easy target. Like most organisations of faith, whether secular or transcendental in nature, it has committed more than its share of sins. No-one could deny that. The crimes committed in the name of Christianity parallel those committed in the name of secular religions like socialism.

But to focus on that *in this instance* that is to ignore and denigrate the role of many sincere and devout people who work ceaselessly for the good of others. To refuse to give money or food to the nice lady from the local Caritas branch who will distribute it later that day directly to a family in need because of the crimes -yes crimes not sins - committed by the Church during the Franco era is truly 'mean-spirited'. 

And my point is simply that in cases where need is local, it's usually better to give locally.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

In the village, the nuns do the distribution of food donations to those who need it at about 7.30-8pm each day. Especially during the winter when it is the olive picking season, it is mostly Moroccans who are there for food packages. The food is either donated by shops, villagers or is bought by the Hermanidades or by Caritas.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> In the village, the nuns do the distribution of food donations to those who need it at about 7.30-8pm each day. Especially during the winter when it is the olive picking season, it is mostly Moroccans who are there for food packages. The food is either donated by shops, villagers or is bought by the Hermanidades or by Caritas.


That imo is the best way to ensure that those in need are helped and what you tell us neatly illustrates my point.

As for the position of the Catholic Church in Spanish society.....it can't be denied that it has historically and socially played a major role in the development of Spanish society and culture. As in the UK, it seems Spanish people are ambivalent and often contradictory about the Church...I've heard PSOE colleagues viciously condemning the Church over issues such as abortion, homosexuality etc...and then talk eagerly of the forthcoming christening, first communion, wedding and so on all to be celebrated in the local church.

As for the special dispensations given in the form of taxation...that is a matter for the Spanish people to decide without outside interference, rather like the role of the Monarchy and the Civil List in the UK.

The German model where one can opt in or out of the 'church tax' seems a good one. I've read that many sex workers and owners of brothels - which are legal in Germany - choose to pay tax to the Catholic Church which of course happily accepts the proceeds of sin...

What's your view on the Spanish attitude to the Church, Baldy?


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## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

*Charities*

One of the most interesting side issue of this debate , is that someone was able to find and publish the administrative costs of UK charities. Try and do this in Spain! With no equivalent of a Charity commission it is hard even to find a register of bona fide charities.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Calas felices said:


> One of the most interesting side issue of this debate , is that someone was able to find and publish the administrative costs of UK charities. Try and do this in Spain! With no equivalent of a Charity commission it is hard even to find a register of bona fide charities.


Yes...comparative transparency is another 'good thing' about the UK.

I became interested in the admin. costs of charities after reading about the enormous percentages deducted by charities and other fund-raising efforts such as 'telethons'. My own connection with donating and volunteering for charity work began decades ago with War on Want, an organisation in which at the time George Galloway played a leading and controversial role. It ended in the UK with a spell as Director of a Housing Association which of course enjoyed charitable status. We endeavoured wherever possible to reduce essential overheads to a minimum so as to enable as much as possible to be used to provide and maintain affordable social housing.

There's no doubt that large-scale relief efforts require organisation and therefore administration and will incur costs. Charities such as the Red Cross, Cafod and others do invaluable work in alleviating distress and want which is always a by-product of war and natural disaster.

But whenever you are able to help DIRECTLY as in the instances Baldy and I have described imo it's better to donate through local organisations which include local Caritas branches and other local non-religious organisations.

And that was the sole point I wanted to make, although it was a fair bet that the evils of the Catholic Church would be brought up at some point, and rightly so. 

As to Concordat Watch....Catholics for Choice is an organisation to which many Catholics world-wide belong. Not all Catholics are swivel-eyed fanatics...


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> What's your view on the Spanish attitude to the Church, Baldy?


I am very anti-religion anyway - a non-believer. if you wish.

The church in Spain, by controlling education, did so much harm to the non-privileged classes and held Spain back a century or two for so long that the church was, to a great part, responsible for the causes of unrest that led to the civil wars (as in Britain). By limiting the teaching of males to age 13 or less and virtually none to females, other than for the privileged classes who could afford private education, the masses were held back. 

If the male part of the hoi-polloi were unenlightened, they were more likely to accept that their future was to follow in their fathers' footsteps and just be a labourer, accepting and not challenging all the clapstrap that the church and others were pouring into them simply because they knew no better. The doctrine of subservience was supreme - whatever the landlord (often absent), the cacique or the church said, was law and could not be challenged.

For the females, of course, their role was to keep house, bear children, and make sure that the males were well fed within what limited financial means were available. The younger females were expected to remain single to look after their parents/grandparents in old age. If the family was really poor and couldn't afford to have all the females at home - well there was always the convent where floors needed scrubbing in exchange for keep. For none of those occupations, was any formal education necessary. Sewing was more important than learning foreign languages, sciences, mathematics, etc. 

Rebellion might have come sooner to Spain had they been involved more in wars other than those of their own making. In Britain, for example, the Crimea and Boer wars and subsequently WWI and WWII, saw the rise of socialism which gave a voice to the lower classes driving forward better education an the emancipation of women (to mention but two) and a weakening of the power of the foppish upper-classes and landed gentry thereby allowing people who had skills and brains rather than just money better opportunities to rise to positions of command, although even in Britain today, the privileged classes still manage to hold on to some extent.

While it may give solace, the church still takes more out of the community that it gives in succour. It uses its vast wealth for its own benefit rather than for the benefit of its congregations and the needy.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> I am very anti-religion anyway - a non-believer. if you wish.
> 
> The church in Spain, by controlling education, did so much harm to the non-privileged classes and held Spain back a century or two for so long that the church was, to a great part, responsible for the causes of unrest that led to the civil wars (as in Britain). By limiting the teaching of males to age 13 or less and virtually none to females, other than for the privileged classes who could afford private education, the masses were held back.
> 
> ...


Whilst not disputing any of that....what I really wanted to know from you is your views as to the attitude *of present-day Spaniards* to the Church

The British Labour Party, although holding on to Clause Four until members sensibly voted for its abolition, was, is and always has been a social democratic reformist party rather than a socialist party although various left-wing offshoots continued and some still continue to advocate 'socialism raw in tooth and claw', a cry ignored by the overwhelming mass of the British people.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Whilst not disputing any of that....what I really wanted to know from you is your views as to the attitude *of present-day Spaniards* to the Church


Mass and especially funerals are quite well attended - about 100 on average for Mass out of a population of ca 5k, many more for some funerals. From indoctrination, the priests are still invited to give solace to the weak and potentially dying, around whom they hover like vultures to ensure that the church figures in the will. Their influence is waning and many can't stand the present cura (he was drunk last Christmas!) but until the generations that were brought up under Franco, and before, die out, the church will still retain a fairly strong although much weakened influence.

As an example of the effect of the church on education - the people from whom we bought our house (he is coming up to 71 and she is 64 tomorrow) she is semi literate (we sometimes have to read and explain letters from officialdom for them) and he just cannot read more than a few words. They aren't stupid and are otherwise quite intelligent - they are just uneducated (literally). Their children and grandchildren are quite well educated - the grandchildren are even learning French and English, something quite unheard of for the grandparents.

However, to answer your question, I don't think it occurs to them that their disadvantaged state was caused by the church.

Don't forget that we live in a village.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Mass and especially funerals are quite well attended - about 100 on average for Mass out of a population of ca 5k, many more for some funerals. From indoctrination, the priests are still invited to give solace to the weak and potentially dying, around whom they hover like vultures to ensure that the church figures in the will. Their influence is waning and many can't stand the present cura (he was drunk last Christmas!) but until the generations that were brought up under Franco, and before, die out, the church will still retain a fairly strong although much weakened influence.
> 
> As an example of the effect of the church on education - the people from whom we bought our house (he is coming up to 71 and she is 64 tomorrow) she is semi literate (we sometimes have to read and explain letters from officialdom for them) and he just cannot read more than a few words. They aren't stupid and are otherwise quite intelligent - they are just uneducated (literally). Their children and grandchildren are quite well educated - the grandchildren are even learning French and English, something quite unheard of for the grandparents.


I guessed it would be like that....rather like people's attitude to the Cof E in the UK where they put down CofE if asked for their religion, even if they have never set foot in a church in their lifetime other than for christenings, weddings and funerals.

There seems to be an innate need for a 'belief' in most people even if not 'activated'....Some sublimate this need in transcendental religions, others in secular political religions and others in these New Age creeds and practices.

Maybe that's what I'm doing in working for the dog charity now I've given up on my secular religions!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Maybe that's what I'm doing in working for the dog charity now I've given up on my secular religions!


and why not? after all the word "dog" reversed spells what?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> and why not? after all the word "dog" reversed spells what?




But at least there's no ideology involved....

Just a bunch of people trying to do something to make life better for abandoned animals.

The same impulse to do something practical, to be active in the community,that animates those who help out locally by volunteering at the comedor social, collecting and distributing food, driving people to hospital and so on...

Frankly, their political or religious views are of small import. Better to walk the walk than talk the talk....

If I were in need I'd accept charity from the hand of MT....


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> But at least there's no ideology involved....


Ah, but there is. The oldest of all, that comes up in ALL religions "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

You give them love, caring and affection, just as you would like them to give you. The difference is that YOU practice it, not like many others who expect to be given all while giving nothing!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Ah, but there is. The oldest of all, that comes up in ALL religions "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
> 
> You give them love, caring and affection, just as you would like them to give you. The difference is that YOU practice it, not like many others who expect to be given all while giving nothing!


The irony is that after a very hectic three years in Prague flying nearly every week all over Europe for the Union, we decided that I would do nothing when settled in Spain...

But now working for ADANA and -in the past -PSOE although still paying my subs..

I have a very strong urge to 'interfere wi' folks', as a Scottish friend once said.....


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Just to put the record straight about a post some time ago which stated that the Catholic Church gives only to practising Catholics, although I know from first-hand expereience that isn't true, here's a statement with much much more authority:
> *
> Pope Benedict XVI clearly states that we help those who are suffering because we are Catholic, not because they are. “Those who practise charity in the Church’s name will never seek to impose the Church’s faith upon others.” )[/I]
> 
> ...


*

Well, that might be so in theory, but in practice I have a first-hand account of the Alcalá Caritas group sitting round deciding who to give assistance to in the village, based on whether their children went to mass regularly or not. Perhaps Pope Benedict needs to pop down here and sort them out!*


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Well, that might be so in theory, but in practice I have a first-hand account of the Alcalá Caritas group sitting round deciding who to give assistance to in the village, based on whether their children went to mass regularly or not. Perhaps Pope Benedict needs to pop down here and sort them out!


I would have reported them to the Bishop and threatened to go to the press. Those actions are directly contrary to the Church's teachings. 

It often happens that either some of the congregation or occasionally priests tend to say or do things that simply aren't accepted by the majority of Catholics.

When I was standing for election to Parliament in the 1990s I gave an interview in which I said that whilst personally against abortion, I did not feel I had the right to make other women subject to my views. SPUC got hold of the interview and reported it to my parish priest. He was a humane and liberal man and expressed his disgust at SPUC's actions.

On the other hand I have had experience of a bigoted and reactionary priest who was much disliked by the congregation, most of whom were divorced, fornicators or practising contraception and who all rejoiced mightily when he retired and went to terrorise a group of elderly nuns in a retirement home for aged priests somewhere on the North Norfolk coast.


I can see why pious people should want to favour their own -it's human nature and rightly said that charity begins at home. But make no mistake, it is against all catholic social teaching and should be rooted out.

Never mind Pope Benedict, if I lived nearer I'd sort them out myself.

The main thing is we should give in whatever way we feel is most effective. My neighbour has just presented me with a large crate of tomatoes and aubergines, more than we can possibly use. I'm considering bagging some up and taking to the little old Spanish lady who organises distribution in our village.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> But make no mistake, it is against all catholic social *teaching* and should be rooted out.


You have hit the nail on the proverbial head - it is against the* teaching* but in practice...?

a.k.a. "Do as I say, not do as I do" otherwise there won't be enough choirboys to go round.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I can see why pious people should want to favour their own -it's human nature and rightly said that charity begins at home. But make no mistake, it is against all catholic social teaching and should be rooted out.


I'm sure this sort of pious hypocrisy happens a lot, and in England too. I remember some vicar in Oxford campaigning to have the homeless removed from his churchyard because it was putting off the tourists, but there was no plan to provide a shelter elsewhere - that was left to secular agencies.

Which is why my money is going to the overtly secular and non-partisan Cruz Roja.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I'm sure this sort of pious hypocrisy happens a lot, and in England too. I remember some vicar in Oxford campaigning to have the homeless removed from his churchyard because it was putting off the tourists, but there was no plan to provide a shelter elsewhere - that was left to secular agencies.
> 
> Which is why my money is going to the overtly secular and non-partisan Cruz Roja.


The important thing is to give. But I know that everything given to the church in my village goes to those in need whatever happens elsewhere. The group of women and men in our church don't even act in the name of Caritas...they just do what they feel needs to be done.

As for the Vicar...whilst not knowing the full facts I'm not surprised he wanted them moved, especially if it was a graveyard as well. Other people, such as neighbours and churchgoers, have rights too and squatting in a churchyard isn't very hygienic or comfortable. 

I find it strange he didn't ring the local authority as they have responsibility for the homeless. It is their job, they are paid to do it so in this case you really can't blame the vicar for leaving it to secular authorities. The Church isn't a housing agency although it does have an arm which runs Housing Associations and he could perhaps have contacted them.

Very often these cases are exaggerated by those who like to bash religion...
Mind you, that's not to say that many Christians don't have a very narrow view of Christian teaching. But then people of all faiths, secular and transcendental, find it easier to love humanity in the abstract than in its flesh-and-blood awkwardness and often downright moral and spiritual ugliness.


Our church once took in some inmates from a local prison who had volunteered to paint the inside of the church. They did an excellent job and the day they finished they absconded. I never did find out if they were caught. Our lovely priest was so trusting, he asked for their word that they wouldn't do anything silly....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> You have hit the nail on the proverbial head - it is against the* teaching* but in practice...?
> 
> a.k.a. "Do as I say, not do as I do" otherwise there won't be enough choirboys to go round.


Naughty Baldy...very unfair to dismiss a whole load of 'true believers' because of the deeds of some.

But only a complete numpty would deny that some awful things have been done in the name of religions of all kinds.


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> I guessed it would be like that....rather like people's attitude to the Cof E in the UK where they put down CofE if asked for their religion, even if they have never set foot in a church in their lifetime other than for christenings, weddings and funerals.
> 
> There seems to be an innate need for a 'belief' in most people even if not 'activated'....Some sublimate this need in transcendental religions, others in secular political religions and others in these New Age creeds and practices.
> 
> Maybe that's what I'm doing in working for the dog charity now I've given up on my secular religions!


Hi - I'm intrigued to know why you choose to categorise 'secular political beliefs' as 'religions'?
I am an avowed athiest - - 'anti-theist' and a socialist - the latter is not a religious belief! Of course, you may have created your own subjective definition of the term 'religion' , in support of your own point - but its crediblity is surely weakened, in that case, isn't it? 

Sxx


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - I'm intrigued to know why you choose to categorise 'secular political beliefs' as 'religions'?
> I am an avowed athiest - - 'anti-theist' and a socialist - the latter is not a religious belief! Of course, you may have created your own subjective definition of the term 'religion' , in support of your own point - but its crediblity is surely weakened, in that case, isn't it?
> 
> Sxx


It all seems to orientate around how one defines "Religion"

(From Wikipedia): Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values. Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature. According to some estimates there are roughly 4200 religions in the world.
Many religions may have organized behaviors, clergy, a definition of what constitutes adherence or membership, holy places, and scriptures. The practice of a religion may also include rituals, sermons, commemoration or veneration a god or gods, sacrifices, festivals, feasts, trance, initiations, funerary services, matrimonial services, meditation, prayer, music, art, dance, public service or other aspects of human culture.

Personally, I prefer to stick to the age-old teaching that seems to appear in all religions (whether they follow it or not!): "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - I'm intrigued to know why you choose to categorise 'secular political beliefs' as 'religions'?
> I am an avowed athiest - - 'anti-theist' and a socialist - the latter is not a religious belief! Of course, you may have created your own subjective definition of the term 'religion' , in support of your own point - but its crediblity is surely weakened, in that case, isn't it?
> 
> Sxx


Not really. Most philosphers accept that religion can be transcendental or secular.
Look back to the Positivists of the late 18th century, to Bertrand Russell....

Of course socialism is a secular belief! Like fascism and neo-liberalism,it is a faith, a movement, a de-Christianised Enlightenment belief....Socialists are usually humanists too, aren't they....
Like people who profess transcendental beliefs, socialists/humanists/fascists/neo-liberals all believe in human perfectability, in human progress, in an 'end' to history. Just as Christians believe that man is superior to all other animals as man is 'made in God's likeness', so humanists are equally anthropocentric. 
Christians profess a belief in a divine kingdom, socialists believe in a man-made earthly utopia. The more unrealistic revolutionary variety -those who have decided that the former socialist countries 'weren't really socialist' are true millenarians. They, like the Seventh Day Adventists, are waiting for the Great Transformation. No harm in that....I rather envy them, having been there once myself.
Socialists/fascists/neo-liberals , like Christians, have their 'sacred' texts...Mein Kampf, the writings of Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, Bakunin, Hayek and Friedmann, whoever...They have hymns 'The Red Flag', 'The Internationale', 'Horst Wessel Lied', 'Cara al Sol', etc. They have saints and martyrs like Christians: Rosa Luxembourg, Jose Antonio Riviera, the Tolpuddle Martyrs...revealing use of words, that.
People who profess secular faiths use terms like 'movement' to describe their organisation. They belive in the rightness of their cause with a fervour worthy of the early Christian martyrs. 
It is a well-known fact that movement from the Catholic faith into the socialist or fascist faith and vice-versa was widespread in the 1930s. In 2005 I saw a shrine to the Virgin Mary affixed to the wall of the Communist Party Office in Venice...
Atheism itself is a reaction to a faith....since there is no rational proof for or against the existence of a deity surely agnosticism would be a more defensible stance....And bear in mind that it is easy to think of rationality as a religion in itself! Interesting that socialists/neo-liberals/fascists ...any ideologues believe that they and they only have the right, the correct knowledge of how society should be organised.
It's interesting that this belief in history having an 'end' and in human progress and perfectibility is rarely found in non-western philosophies.

I actually think that giving some secular religions this status confers more dignity and meaning to them.

When you say you are a 'socialist' does that mean you believe that the means of production and distribution should be in public ownership?
I ask as many people misunderstand the true meaning of socialism and use it to define ends and not means, which is a misunderstanding. 
Many other political creeds share the ends but differ as to the means i.e. the abolition of all private property and the price/market mechanism. 
Many people forget or do not know that the German SPD, the Spanish PSOE, the French Socialist Party and the Labour Party in the UK are social-democratic parties which long ago abandoned any Marxist beliefs in their programmes..
The 'true' socialist parties in the UK are The Socialist Party (formerly Militant), the SWP, Respect and the parties affilated to the Fourth International .

Just a footnote: people of secular faith, like those of transcendental faith, are often prepared to suffer and even die for their beliefs. Can you imagine a Liberal-Democrat or traditional conservative going that far?


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Whilst not disputing any of that....what I really wanted to know from you is your views as to the attitude *of present-day Spaniards* to the Church ... QUOTE
> 
> 
> I appreciate you have asked only for Baldilock's opinion, but as a contributor to this thread, I'd like to comment that none of my Spanish friends (or conocidos) support the Catholic Church. Many of them are in their 20's, 30's and 40's, so perhaps they are more representative of the younger generation than the general population - and they've all had the benefit of higher education, so have been taught to question, rather than merely accepting whatever they're told by 'authority figures' in Spanish society!
> ...


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

GUAPACHICA said:


> It's noteworthy that whilst the 'Semana Santa' processions in the capital city of this province do attract huge crowds of all ages, those young Spaniards of my acquaintance want nothing whatever to do with such rites - and are highly critical of the Catholic Church's assumed right to take over most of the ancient city centre road system, plazas (and many pavements) for almost two weeks - making it incredibly difficult for anyone to move around between 4p.m. and 1 or even 2a.m. next morning! They have explained to me, however, that the chances of challenging the Catholic Church's activities via the local media remain nil, as the City Govt. ( PP controlled - and fervently supportive of the Church) and the media are symbiotically entwined...!


Unfortunately you don't say where you are so we don't know the city you are describing. You give your location as Andalucía which stretches right across the southern part of the country. Here, it is not the Catholic Church that takes over the streets, it is the Hermanidades and the Cofradías which are composed of the ordinary people who support the church. They comprise people of all ages from the very young to the quite elderly. It is considered an honour to be one of those who carry the pasos. Those that don't have that honour form the penitents.




GUAPACHICA said:


> BTW - I can't agree with a point made in one of your other posts in this thread, that the Spanish Govt's annual 6 billion euro (estimated) contribution to the Catholic Church is a matter only for Spanish people to decide - many members/guests here will have a right to vote in Spain - and are also contributing tax payers! In my view, those concerned have every right to comment, challenge, campaign and/or protest as they see fit!


If you are not Spanish you can't vote in National or European elections only in local ones so although we are taxpayers, we get no say in how the money is spent nationally. BUT, the thing is, if you don't like the way things are done in Spain (after all is the Spaniards' country not the immigrants') then go elsewhere.


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> It all seems to orientate around how one defines "Religion"
> 
> (From Wikipedia): Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values. Many religions have narratives, symbols, traditions and sacred histories that are intended to give meaning to life or to explain the origin of life or the universe. They tend to derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle from their ideas about the cosmos and human nature. According to some estimates there are roughly 4200 religions in the world.
> Many religions may have organized behaviors, clergy, a definition of what constitutes adherence or membership, holy places, and scriptures. The practice of a religion may also include rituals, sermons, commemoration or veneration a god or gods, sacrifices, festivals, feasts, trance, initiations, funerary services, matrimonial services, meditation, prayer, music, art, dance, public service or other aspects of human culture.
> ...


Hi - thanks for responding so fully..! 

Whilst I am a big fan of _Wikipedia_, I'd better stick to quoting the dictionary I recommend to all of my students - or I'll stand accused of hypocrisy...!

*The Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary -Online* (CALDO !). 
It's updated, regularly, using info. taken from the '_Cambridge Concordance_' project' which collects and analyses millions of English words and phrases, in many different contexts, so that Cambridge English Grammar texts, dictionaries and courses are guaranteed to reflect current usage and definitions.

So, -' _religion_'
noun/rɪˈlɪdʒ.ən/

Definition
•[C or U] the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship

_the Christian religion_

•[C] informal- an activity which someone is extremely enthusiastic about and does regularly

_Football is a religion for these people_.

(Definition of' [I_]religion_'[/I] noun from the *Cambridge Advanced Learner's **Dictionary & Thesaurus* © Cambridge University Press)


As you can see, this dictionary distinguishes, appropriately, between 'formal' and 'informal' definitions.

So, Mrpg -if we were to understand that in your use of the term '_religion'_, regarding 'secular political beliefs, including '_Socialism_, ' you were, in fact, referring to the 'informal' definition above, then any volunteer activity, including your Presidency of ADANA could be defined similarly - as '_religious_', agreed? :boxing: Confusing, lol!

GC


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

GUAPACHICA said:


> mrypg9 said:
> 
> 
> > Whilst not disputing any of that....what I really wanted to know from you is your views as to the attitude *of present-day Spaniards* to the Church ... QUOTE
> ...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hi - thanks for responding so fully..!
> 
> Whilst I am a big fan of _Wikipedia_, I'd better stick to quoting the dictionary I recommend to all of my students - or I'll stand accused of hypocrisy...!
> 
> ...


No, not at all. ADANA has no set of beliefs, no creed. It is an activity, like working for any charity. There is nothing to 'believe' in. It is like gardening or fishing or playing ping-pong although hopefully more beneficial to other sentient beings. It does not in any way impose a set of special values which only by belonging to ADANA can I put into practice. I can feed stray dogs and cats without belonging to ADANA or professing any creed or motivation other than empathy and the desire to relieve suffering.
Stick to the formal definition as that is what is relevant here. As the dictionary says, *'or any such system of belief and worship'*
Now, I don't know anyone who actually 'worships' Karl Marx or Trotsky or Hitler-some certainly come close - although some have feelings for MT which border on idolatry.  There were however very many who were ready to die for fascism and socialism just as there were those ready to die for Christ.
And socialism, fascism, neo-liberalism, liberalism are all 'systems of belief'. 
If I remember my Latin correctly, the word 'religion' itself derives from _res _meaning 'matters' or 'things' and _ligio _meaning 'bonds or ties'...or it may be_ lex _meaning 'law'.
So religion merely means a set of beliefs or codes which may be secular or transcendental.
I can't see why anyone should object to their political faith being seen as such. Most of my ultra-left friends would agree that they *believe* in their chosen creed.
Oh, and by the way...just as Christians have banners and images, followers of secular faiths have their banners, parades, processions and 'sacred' objects....have you ever visited the Marx Memorial Library in Clerkenwell, London?
A shrine to the memory of the saint of socialism...


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

QUOTE: BUT, the thing is, if you don't like the way things are done in Spain (after all is the Spaniards' country not the immigrants') then go elsewhere.[/QUOTE]

Hi - why? Do you really believe that all Spaniards are happy with everything here? There are national, regional, provincial and local Spanish organisations which represent differing perspectives on every aspect of Spanish life and they are lobbying for change! In my area, they welcome support from Spanish citizens, foreign residents and even - in some cases - foreign students and visitors, alike!
In fact, I'm a member of several such groups myself!

When Spanish friends and colleagues tell me to '_go elsewhere_', because I've been inappropriately critical, I'll be on the first plane out of here - rest assured! As it is, we're working together, as volunteers, in support of various causes, all of which have a political dimension - doesn't everything..?

There's absolutely no reason why Spain should be preserved in aspic - any more than the UK where there's a wide spectrum of beliefs, attitudes and opinions on every conceivable subject, and it's quite legal for foreigners to join with British nationals to challenge, protest and demonstrate in favour of their causes and political views. The two marches through London, against British intervention in Iraq, were supported, directly, by many foreign organisations and individuals - all welcomed by the organisers - I know, because I was present! 

Europe is a reality, now - and we, in Spain are living in Europe! As European citizens, we're, none of us, limited to political, social or any other type of activity solely within our own national borders - opportunities now exist to effect change of all kinds within individual countries - through joint action, Europe-wide. :clap2:

GC


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

GUAPACHICA said:


> QUOTE: BUT, the thing is, if you don't like the way things are done in Spain (after all is the Spaniards' country not the immigrants') then go elsewhere.


! 

Europe is a reality, now - and we, in Spain are living in Europe! As European citizens, we're, none of us, limited to political, social or any other type of activity solely within our own national borders - *opportunities now exist to effect change of all kinds within individual countries - through joint action, Europe-wide.* :clap2:

GC[/QUOTE]


I very much doubt that any changes will be of the 'socialist' kind you may like to see.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

The CAD definition is too restricted in its viewpoint and is too orientated around "Christian Religion" which, while a major religion, is far from the most widespread by number of followers.

My Point:
the thing is, if you don't like the way things are done in Spain (after all is the Spaniards' country not the immigrants') then go elsewhere.

It is not our place to criticise the way the Spaniards do things, after all we would object if when we lived in our native country, foreigners complained about the way we did things. The old story, "ifyou don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen!"

It is rather like the situation, oft encountered in UK, when townies move to the countryside and object to the cockerel that crows while they want to have a lie in.


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## Minerva.909 (Jul 29, 2012)

Twain said:


> The effectiveness of such organizations is not always what you think.
> 
> As little as 25% of the income goes to the purpose.
> The rest goes to administration.
> ...


I don't know about Europe (yet) but in the US all organizations that count are rated by one of the couple wathdog organizations on how they use the money. It is easy in the USA since IRS is a federal tax office to which all nonprofits in the entire country submit their annual reports. Europe is too stratified, probably for over the border omparisons by every Jill and Joe, but perhaps natioal stats exist and can give you guildlines who manages frugally and who does not?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

GUAPACHICA said:


> QUOTE:
> 
> . The two marches through London, against British intervention in Iraq, were supported, directly, by many foreign organisations and individuals - all welcomed by the organisers - I know, because I was present!
> 
> ...


Well, I guess it was a fun day out....

The two marches did absolutely nothing to prevent Blair taking the country into this war which begain in March 2003 if I remember rightly and the fact that he was reelected in May 2005 with an overall majority of over sixty would seem to indicate that the British public either supported or was radically indifferent to the Iraq war.

The marches were discredited in many people's eyes because the Stop The War Committee was largely composed of Trots and other minority ultra-left group members. 
I was against the war but was not willing to participate in an activity organised by groups with other agendas.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

GUAPACHICA said:


> QUOTE:
> 
> . The two marches through London, against British intervention in Iraq, were supported, directly, by many foreign organisations and individuals - all welcomed by the organisers - I know, because I was present!
> 
> ...


Well, I guess it was a fun day out....which achieved nothing, nics, nada, rien....

The two marches did absolutely nothing to prevent Blair taking the country into this war which began in March 2003 if I remember rightly and the fact that he was reelected in May 2005 with an overall majority of over sixty would seem to indicate that the British public either supported or was radically indifferent to the Iraq war.

The marches were discredited in many people's eyes because the Stop The War Committee was largely composed of Trots and other minority ultra-left group members. Very easy to discredit it in the eyes of moderately-inclined people.
I was against the war but was not willing to participate in an activity organised by groups with other agendas.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> My Point:
> the thing is, if you don't like the way things are done in Spain (after all is the Spaniards' country not the immigrants') then go elsewhere.
> 
> It is not our place to criticise the way the Spaniards do things, after all we would object if when we lived in our native country, foreigners complained about the way we did things. The old story, "if you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen!"


You are making the common mistake of assuming that all Spaniards want the same thing and do things the same way. Nearly half the country is opposed to Government subsidising the Catholic church, for example. Over half is opposed to public money being spent on bullfights. 

Immigrants resident in a country have as much right to comment on and criticise what they find unacceptable as people who were born there. One's place of birth or what it says on one's passport are irrelevant. If something needs changing, and the majority agree it needs changing, then as human beings with a common interest we should work together to change it. 

By your argument, we Brits living in Spain should turn a blind eye when unwanted animals are dumped in bins or left tied up all day in the sun. We should smile nicely when we find out that our house has to be demolished because of some deal between a corrupt mayor and property speculator ten years ago. We shouldn't even vote in local elections. Do you really believe that?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> You are making the common mistake of assuming that all Spaniards want the same thing and do things the same way. Nearly half the country is opposed to Government subsidising the Catholic church, for example. Over half is opposed to public money being spent on bullfights.
> 
> Immigrants resident in a country have as much right to comment on and criticise what they find unacceptable as people who were born there. One's place of birth or what it says on one's passport are irrelevant. If something needs changing, and the majority agree it needs changing, then as human beings with a common interest we should work together to change it.
> 
> By your argument, we Brits living in Spain should turn a blind eye when unwanted animals are dumped in bins or left tied up all day in the sun. We should smile nicely when we find out that our house has to be demolished because of some deal between a corrupt mayor and property speculator ten years ago. We shouldn't even vote in local elections. Do you really believe that?


Much of what you say is true but I can't agree with your comment about one's place of birth being irrelevant.

It is true that we are who we are by accident of birth...but it is an accident that has far-reaching consequences for how we think, act and live our lives. We are not born as autonomous cyphers as some like to believe...we are born into families with language and history and culture which we may choose to react against but cannot completely disavow.

Neither do human beings have a 'common interest'. Neither you nor I have any interests in common with people who for cultural reasons think it right to practise FGM on their daughters, to name but one example.

But having said that, nationality and culture do not repress the feelings of compassion that most humans feel for sentient beings, neither do they blind one to obvious injustice.

It's _how_ you involve yourself that is important, imo. Yes, work for change where it's obviously needed. But to truly change , in a foreign country you step slowly, mindful of the fact that we don't share Spanish traditions, history and culture and cthat as you rightly say, Spain just like the UK is a pluralist society.

I'm still shocked by the fact that very many Spaniards of ages long nostalgically for the days of Franco, when 'you could go out and leave your door open, there was respect' and so on and so forth.
An article in our local paper was headed 'Soy franquista'. Written by a thirty-year-old office worker.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> You are making the common mistake of assuming that all Spaniards want the same thing and do things the same way. Nearly half the country is opposed to Government subsidising the Catholic church, for example. Over half is opposed to public money being spent on bullfights.


No I'm not, BUT you, like so many of your kind are quite willing to put words into other people's mouths as a basis for promulgating your own arguments.



Alcalaina said:


> Immigrants resident in a country have as much right to comment on and criticise what they find unacceptable as people who were born there. One's place of birth or what it says on one's passport are irrelevant. If something needs changing, and *the majority* agree it needs changing, then as human beings with a common interest we should work together to change it.


BUT we, immigrants are *not* a majority in Spain or even large parts of Spain. About the only places where we are anything other than a minority are in a few urbs in Little Britain/Holland/Germany




Alcalaina said:


> By your argument, we Brits living in Spain should turn a blind eye when unwanted animals are dumped in bins or left tied up all day in the sun. We should smile nicely when we find out that our house has to be demolished because of some deal between a corrupt mayor and property speculator ten years ago. We shouldn't even vote in local elections. Do you really believe that?


Again, you are opening my mouth and putting YOUR words into it. 

If you object to what happens to the animals, do something about it - don't harangue us from your soapbox, most of us don't bother to rant about the animal that is suffering or dying, we get on and do something about it, even if it means getting bloodstains on clothes and car upholstery taking a seriously injured animal to the vet.
As regards to the corrupt deals between various mayors and property speculators, firstly check out just who was involved and who ran off with the money while leaving the local representatives to carry the can (ever wondered what happened to all the people like time-share touts, etc?), secondly, if people come out to Spain without doing thorough research with the idea, they are going to make a killing over some local 'ignorant peasant', then they have only got themsleves to blame.
Your imagination will get you into serious trouble one day - where have I said anything about not voting in local elections? or is it just anothor of attepts at putting your words into my mouth.

All I can suggest is that you take all these red-herrings with which you choose to confuse the issue and save them for your rants with your politically misinformed (or do I mean, deformed? - something twisted anyway) colleagues.


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> I very much doubt that any changes will be of the 'socialist' kind you may like to see.




In my case, here in Spain, my own affiliations are all to non - party political organisations and my commitment to Socialism is not expressed through involvement with any Spanish Political Party.

I learnt, back in the UK, just how effective pressure groups can be, regarding both national and local political agendas - and I also learned, through bitter experience, to distrust all mainstream Political Parties - though not all politicians! 

So, now I prefer to put my time and effort into Spanish, European and international environmental and animal welfare organisations.
In my opinion, all such activity is essentially political (small 'p') as we are lobbying for changes to current legislation at both European and national Govt. levels - whilst continuing to engage in necessary practical tasks, in support of our stated goals.

Your prediction (quoted above) may just turn out to be correct - but who knows, yet, what the full-blown effects of our current troubled times may be? 

After all, the proof of the self- destructive Capitalist economic system is all around us and we are now living through the fall-out from its latest combustion! The shocking lack of oversight and blind faith on the part of our political representatives was only to be expected in an economic system which demands a virtual free rein, resulting in unfettered and wholly unsustainable growth - its benefits skewed vastly in favour of the banks and the wealthy, at the expense of everyone and everything else!

So, now that the financial security, current and future employment prospects, education and training opportunities, as well as the health and social care of 
millions of people have been either destroyed or put on long, long-term hold, who could blame anyone, especially the young, for believing Capitalism to be inherently flawed - and themselves merely helpless pawns in an incredibly cruel and sick game of economic chance? 

Of course, here in Spain - and also in Italy - there is still, tragically, the potential for much worse suffering to come - if, and when, a full economic bailout does become necessary!

For the sake of all human and animal victims - and the environment - we'd better hope for a (secular) miracle..! 

GC


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

[quote (BALDILOCKS) ]



> Again, you are opening my mouth and putting YOUR words into it.
> [LI
> 
> All I can suggest is that you take all these red-herrings with which you choose to confuse the issue and save them for your rants with your politically misinformed (or do I mean, deformed? - something twisted anyway) colleagues


.[/quote]


Hi - my mother used to advise me, when I was a child, that if my point was valid, I'd be able to make it without needing to insult the other person...!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

GUAPACHICA said:


> In my case, here in Spain, my own affiliations are all to non - party political organisations and my commitment to *Socialism *is not expressed through involvement with any Spanish Political Party.
> 
> I learnt, back in the UK, just how effective pressure groups can be, regarding both national and local political agendas - and I also learned, through bitter experience, to distrust all mainstream Political Parties - though not all politicians!
> 
> ...


It would be helpful if you explained what your brand of 'socialism' involves....I did ask.

Socialism means the common ownership of the means of production and distribution and the determination of resource allocation via a planning system. The actual organisation of society under this method could either be centrally directed -tried and failed - or in the vague and romantic revolutionary socialist/Trotskyite vision by 'worker management'.....never tried apart from in a diluted form in FYR and never likely to be tried in a technologically advanced society.

Capitalism mutates. It comes in various forms, the Anglo-Saxon model, the European social market model, the Russian mafia state model, the Japanese model, the Korean model...

So whilst one form of capitalism has failed -the neo-liberal model - this is not true of all varieties of capitalism. Even the Anglo-Saxon model has educated you, provided you with the care of the NHS, given you reasonably well-paid employment and has enabled you to live in Spain.

Ask people who have actually experienced socialism if they have been so fortunate...

Remember, the only true 'people's revolutions' have been those against socialism and for capitalism as seen in Europe in 1989.

You say you are 'actively' involved in pressing for change in environmental and animal welfare issues...does this activity extend to 'hands on' work, I wonder? I'd be interested to learn about your animal welfare involvement as we are trying to make links with other organisations in our area.

When you refer to 'we' and our 'stated goals'....can you be more specific so we know to what we are referring?

We have seen huge instances of market failure but we forget that there have been also instances of government failure - we're seeing it now.

I gave up sloganising and having fun but ineffective days out with my then like-minded colleagues in favour of practical politics...the boring old stuff of committees and budgets and difficult decisions regarding resource allocation. In this way I and others helped build social housing, improved local social services, built schools and sat on their governing bodies, sat on trades union committees, represented employees at industrial tribunals, got involved in case work, sat on government committees to help draft employment protection legislation...boring things like that that lack the 'feel good' of the committed 'revolutionary' but through small steps politics actually improve people's lives.

The task for people who want realistic and achievable change is to 'take people with them', as the Marxists used to say....That involves hard work too...working within established systems to bring about new ways of looking at what constitutes a healthy, happy society.

You dismiss established political parties too easily....every improvement in people's lives has been achieved by reforms intiated by mainstream political parties - that and the material improvements especially to women's lives brought about by innovation in the market...washing machines, dishwashers, vaccuum cleaners, easy cleaning products...things hard to come by or absent in the socialist states of Central and Eastern Europe.

Pensions, tax credits, the NHS, free education, the communications infrastructure, decent housing for most, employment protection legislation, anti-discrmination law, paid holidays and many many more such instances of genuine reform that vastly improved people's lives -achieved by the mainstream politicians you mistrust.

Meanwhile, back in the revolutionary camp...splits, doctrinal disputes, messianic certainties.....

We really shouldn't wonder why people reject revolution in favour of reform....unless they're those unlucky souls who have experienced real socialism... 
And no, I'm not 'hoping for a miracle'....just working with others on a daily basis to run a smallish animal charity now...nothing political apart from giving the occasional speech or seminar. I don't hope and I don't believe in miracles...


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> No I'm not, BUT you, like so many of your kind are quite willing to put words into other people's mouths as a basis for promulgating your own arguments.


I wasn't putting words into your mouth, I was quoting you! 



baldilocks said:


> BUT we, immigrants are *not* a majority in Spain or even large parts of Spain. About the only places where we are anything other than a minority are in a few urbs in Little Britain/Holland/Germany


This fixation with nationality is just a distraction. All I'm asking is that you put aside for a moment the distinction between "we immigrants" and "the Spanish", and consider that their might be other ways of segregating the population. For example by religious or political beliefs, economic situation, age, interests ... I have far more in common with some of my Spanish neighbours than with some of the Brits on this forum. The only difference between us is language, and that can be overcome.


baldilocks said:


> Again, you are opening my mouth and putting YOUR words into it.
> 
> If you object to what happens to the animals, do something about it - don't harangue us from your soapbox, most of us don't bother to rant about the animal that is suffering or dying, we get on and do something about it, even if it means getting bloodstains on clothes and car upholstery taking a seriously injured animal to the vet.
> As regards to the corrupt deals between various mayors and property speculators, firstly check out just who was involved and who ran off with the money while leaving the local representatives to carry the can (ever wondered what happened to all the people like time-share touts, etc?), secondly, if people come out to Spain without doing thorough research with the idea, they are going to make a killing over some local 'ignorant peasant', then they have only got themsleves to blame.
> Your imagination will get you into serious trouble one day - where have I said anything about not voting in local elections? or is it just anothor of attepts at putting your words into my mouth.


I was using these as examples of your "non-intervention policy" - you suggested that immigrants had no right to comment on or interfere in what happens in Spain.


baldilocks said:


> All I can suggest is that you take all these red-herrings with which you choose to confuse the issue and save them for your rants with your politically misinformed (or do I mean, deformed? - something twisted anyway) colleagues.


OK, so you find it hard to tolerate people who disagree with you!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> This fixation with nationality is just a distraction. All I'm asking is that you put aside for a moment the distinction between "we immigrants" and "the Spanish", and consider that their might be other ways of segregating the population. For example by religious or political beliefs, economic situation, age, interests ... I have far more in common with some of my Spanish neighbours than with some of the Brits on this forum. The only difference between us is language, and that can be overcome.
> 
> I was using these as examples of your "non-intervention policy" - you suggested that immigrants had no right to comment on or interfere in what happens in Spain.
> 
> !


But nationality isn't just a 'distraction', is it....That view would be rejected by most people. I'm not saying that's a 'good' thing, I'm just saying that it 'is'. I know you are an 'internationalist' but it seems to me internationalism is an abstract concept that has less impact in the world we live in than nationality. 
'Internationalism' isn't a human reaction....the human reaction is to think of family, friends and those of your culture and nationality before those we perceive as 'other'. Again, I'm not saying this is 'good' - it just 'is'.
You just have to look at the state of the world today to see how nationality, culture and religion, all things you would see as 'irrelevant', perhaps, determine actions. During the UK miners' strike, Polish miners happily sent cheap coal to the UK! National interests first, as always.
Now like you I have Spanish friends with whom I share more interests than many British people I know here. But that doesn't give me some kind of admission into Spanish society, culture or historical tradition. I am a foreigner living in someone else's country and I accept that and behave accordingly.
Yes, we have a right to comment on aspects of Spanish society. After all, we Brits have a long history of involving ourselves with the affairs of others...
But we should do so sensitively and recognise that our particular axes might not be those ground by the majority of Spanish people. I have come to accept that my attitude to animal welfare is not shared by most Spanish people, not yet anyway. 
It would be wrong to stand by in any country and passively accept cruelty or wrong of any kind that by our action we could prevent.
What we have to avoid, I think, is the 'we know best' attitude that would annoy people of any nationality when expressed by 'superior' Brits.
It is difficult to gauge majority opinion in any country but it's safe to say that national sentiment is always lurking in the background of most people's minds, whatever their nationality.
It can be positive and friendly as in sport and other similar co-operative activities or damaging and brutal, as in war and other aggressive behaviour. But I think we are fooling ourselves if we think that nationality and national feeling don't exist or don't matter.
At the end of the day, 'we' are British, German, Dutch, whatever and 'they' are Spanish.

Vive la difference!!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> But I think we are fooling ourselves if we think that nationality and national feeling don't exist or don't matter.
> At the end of the day, 'we' are British, German, Dutch, whatever and 'they' are Spanish.
> 
> Vive la difference!!


We will have to agree to differ. 

At the end of the day, we are all **** sapiens. We come into this world the same way and we leave it the same way. Everything else is artificial - culture, language, customs etc are all learned behaviours, not inherent, and can be changed. 

One's nationality is a political label, not a personal characteristic. Nationalism exists, of course, but it is rarely a force for good.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> We will have to agree to differ.
> 
> At the end of the day, we are all **** sapiens. We come into this world the same way and we leave it the same way. Everything else is artificial - culture, language, customs etc are all learned behaviours, not inherent, and can be changed.
> 
> One's nationality is a political label, not a personal characteristic. Nationalism exists, of course, but it is rarely a force for good.


Culture may well be 'artificial', whatever that implies but like 'false consciousness' it is a powerful motivator.
Yes, language and customs are learned behaviours...but they are learned within a specific environment. 

Your view that '**** sapiens' comes into the world as a cypher, a 'blank slate' may well fit into your rationalist, left-socialist world-view but like many concepts built on abstractions they do not coincide with real-world experience, no matter how neat and tidy and logical they may be as theories. Life is terribly unpredictable, chaotic and untidy, isn't it...

There is opinion and there is evidence. The evidence of the recent history of many of the peoples of the former socialist states surely shows that even after seventy years of 're-education' where national cultures and religions were repressed, those 'engineers of souls' did not succeed in eradicating powerful _inherent_ cultural and national traditions. 

Nationality is indeed a political label but is it any the less powerful a motivator for that? 
The fact that as you rightly say it is rarely a force for good demonstrates in itself what poerful energy it can unleash.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

GUAPACHICA said:


> [quote (BALDILOCKS) ]
> 
> .



Hi - my mother used to advise me, when I was a child, that if my point was valid, I'd be able to make it without needing to insult the other person...! [/QUOTE]

You missed an earlier thread. :focus::focus:


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