# Been Planning on Moving to Germany for over a Year



## Amie23

In June 2017 my best friend, who was born and raised and still is in Germany, and I began talking about making a life together. We're not romantically involved, though we do call each other "dear" and send a lot of hearts back and forth.

We're both disabled, she physically and me mentally, and we have many of the same interests. We seem quite compatible, which makes Germany look like an excellent idea (she doesn't want to come here, and I've always wanted to move to Western Europe).

We began planning that we'll get married and run a farm with a little bit of everything.
1) Is it legal to get married as best friends? 
2) Can we even run a farm if we have disability benefits from our birth countries?

I know that if I earn too much money, my benefits will stop.

Also, will the medications and doctors in Germany be comparable to what I get here? My dad tells me that the US is a world leader in mental health, but the internet has told me that Germany is actually moreso. (My dad is also ridiculously patriotic)

I'd like to bring two of my pets with me: a tiny papillon dog and a guinea pig. Is that reasonable?
Also, the dog helps me a lot but is not currently a service dog. I'd very much love to train him to be one for me when I have money, but I don't know if that'd mean anything in Germany.

I'll be honest, I've always preferred France and speaking French (I was top of my class in that regard, though I've lost a lot of it over time). I now know German a bit better than French, mainly cuz sometimes I speak it with my best friend. Somehow, it is more difficult for me than French. I think I can still learn it and go fluent eventually.

A final thought I'd like to mention; Would I have to rid of my US citizenship to stay in Germany? I read that there's a loophole that if you don't earn enough, you don't have to. But I don't know how much I'd end up earning cuz of the farm idea. 

I honestly feel like the idea to move to Germany is more a shared fantasy and life for my best friend and me. I don't know if it is realistic at all. 

Thank you in advance!


----------



## Nononymous

Amie23 said:


> 1) Is it legal to get married as best friends?


It is perfectly legal to get married without performing any consumating acts; the nature of your relationship isn't really relevant unless the authorities suspect an immigration scam.



> 2) Can we even run a farm if we have disability benefits from our birth countries


No idea. Commercial farming or hobby farming?



> Also, will the medications and doctors in Germany be comparable to what I get here? My dad tells me that the US is a world leader in mental health, but the internet has told me that Germany is actually moreso. (My dad is also ridiculously patriotic)


No idea. But it does raise the question of health insurance, which you would need in Germany, and which isn't necessarily cheap if you don't have it through employment. Further research required.



> I'd like to bring two of my pets with me: a tiny papillon dog and a guinea pig. Is that reasonable?


Ask your local German consulate. The dog should be easy, not sure about the guinea pig.



> A final thought I'd like to mention; Would I have to rid of my US citizenship to stay in Germany? I read that there's a loophole that if you don't earn enough, you don't have to. But I don't know how much I'd end up earning cuz of the farm idea.


Short answer: no. If you took German citizenship you would be required to give up US citizenship unless you were low income and could prove hardship due to the renunciation fee (US$2350). But taking German citizenship is a long process and it's by no means required, you could remain indefinitely as a permanent resident. The biggest reason to become German and get rid of US is of course to escape US tax filing obligations, and the fact that banks don't want US citizen customers due to FATCA and its reporting requirements.



> I honestly feel like the idea to move to Germany is more a shared fantasy and life for my best friend and me. I don't know if it is realistic at all.


It sounds rather a fantasy, particularly the farm bit. However, you can go 90 days out of 180 as a tourist so there's not reason not to give it a few three-month trials to see how things work out. You can't work an official job while visiting, but of course you can do farm chores in exchange for room and board.


----------



## ALKB

Amie23 said:


> In June 2017 my best friend, who was born and raised and still is in Germany, and I began talking about making a life together. We're not romantically involved, though we do call each other "dear" and send a lot of hearts back and forth.
> 
> We're both disabled, she physically and me mentally, and we have many of the same interests. We seem quite compatible, which makes Germany look like an excellent idea (she doesn't want to come here, and I've always wanted to move to Western Europe).
> 
> We began planning that we'll get married and run a farm with a little bit of everything.
> 1) Is it legal to get married as best friends?


People get married for all sorts of reasons. Getting married in Germany as a non-EEA national is not the most easy thing to do, you might want to consider alternative locations such as Denmark or the USA.

The bit where your relationship may be questioned is when you apply for your spouse residence permit. But if your relationship (and you define your relationship) is genuine and you want to make a life together I don't see why they would deny you on relationship grounds. You will either need to show German language skills or a university degree or may have to attend an integration course (660 hours of German language instruction and German culture).



Amie23 said:


> 2) Can we even run a farm if we have disability benefits from our birth countries?


Are your friend's benefits means tested? Can you receive your benefits while mo longer being a resident of the USA?




Amie23 said:


> I know that if I earn too much money, my benefits will stop.


This sounds like your benefits are means tested. Will you be able to receive this outside of the USA? To be very honest, 'a little farm with a bit of everything' doesn't sound like you will make a lot of money. Many farmers can no longer live off their farms alone and need a daytime job. So I guess your farm would most probably cover your own fruit and veg needs, maybe milk and eggs? If your friend's benefits are means tested, then there might be a problem with owning property. You should ask your friend about that and whether their benefits are based on household income.



Amie23 said:


> Also, will the medications and doctors in Germany be comparable to what I get here? My dad tells me that the US is a world leader in mental health, but the internet has told me that Germany is actually more-so. (My dad is also ridiculously patriotic)


Depending on where in Germany you are (your farm idea sounds rural), most of all, doctors and treatment will be (speaking in) German. Also, going into a new health system, treatments and policies can differ drastically from what one is used to. Doctors will probably also like to form their own opinion and getting treatment started may take a considerable amount of time.

What kinds of medication is prescribed is also governed by different rules. One can't usually get pain killers with opiates, for example. Unlike in the US, the circumstances would have to be pretty dire to get a prescription for that kind of habit-forming medication.




Amie23 said:


> But I don't know how much I'd end up earning cuz of the farm idea.



Running the farm as a business rather than a self-sufficiency project would require you to register it as a business with all its ramifications for tax, reporting, health and safety, licensing, health insurance for self-employed people, etc.

Does your friend actually own a farm already?


----------



## Amie23

ALKB said:


> People get married for all sorts of reasons. Getting married in Germany as a non-EEA national is not the most easy thing to do, you might want to consider alternative locations such as Denmark or the USA.
> 
> The bit where your relationship may be questioned is when you apply for your spouse residence permit. But if your relationship (and you define your relationship) is genuine and you want to make a life together I don't see why they would deny you on relationship grounds. You will either need to show German language skills or a university degree or may have to attend an integration course (660 hours of German language instruction and German culture).
> 
> 
> 
> Are your friend's benefits means tested? Can you receive your benefits while mo longer being a resident of the USA?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This sounds like your benefits are means tested. Will you be able to receive this outside of the USA? To be very honest, 'a little farm with a bit of everything' doesn't sound like you will make a lot of money. Many farmers can no longer live off their farms alone and need a daytime job. So I guess your farm would most probably cover your own fruit and veg needs, maybe milk and eggs? If your friend's benefits are means tested, then there might be a problem with owning property. You should ask your friend about that and whether their benefits are based on household income.
> 
> 
> 
> Depending on where in Germany you are (your farm idea sounds rural), most of all, doctors and treatment will be (speaking in) German. Also, going into a new health system, treatments and policies can differ drastically from what one is used to. Doctors will probably also like to form their own opinion and getting treatment started may take a considerable amount of time.
> 
> What kinds of medication is prescribed is also governed by different rules. One can't usually get pain killers with opiates, for example. Unlike in the US, the circumstances would have to be pretty dire to get a prescription for that kind of habit-forming medication.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Running the farm as a business rather than a self-sufficiency project would require you to register it as a business with all its ramifications for tax, reporting, health and safety, licensing, health insurance for self-employed people, etc.
> 
> Does your friend actually own a farm already?


Yeah I have read that it'd be easier to marry in Denmark than in Germany, but my best friend isn't sure of it because she couldn't bring her dog, and since her friend and father would be with us for the process, no one would be able to watch him (I don't think he's ever been in a public kennel either but I don't remember if she'd be willing to do that or not).

Yeah, if we do marry, we definitely plan on staying together. 

I've read that I can keep my benefits even if I live in another country that the US can send my money and such to, and Germany falls into this category from my understanding. 
Now, I know very little about my best friend's benefits, as she doesn't even totally understand what she has (her father manages it). I know that she receives it for being half-blind/half-deaf, but beyond that, I'm unsure. 

With the farm, we mostly want to take care of ourselves. Maybe sell some for a little extra money, but we have so many plans I just don't know how it would add up.

My best friend lives in an apartment with her father right now. We've been looking at farms for sale and rent, and been seeking advice on how to best come to own one. Though, we don't know it will work.

Yeah, I'm a bit concerned about my mental health in regards to doctors and meds. I'm not afraid of learning the language, as I've already learned the basics and just need to learn more advanced stuff and practice. I'm quick at picking up languages in general.

Thank you so much for the thoughts provided and sorry I don't know all the details I probably need!




Nononymous said:


> It is perfectly legal to get married without performing any consumating acts; the nature of your relationship isn't really relevant unless the authorities suspect an immigration scam.
> 
> 
> 
> No idea. Commercial farming or hobby farming?
> 
> 
> 
> No idea. But it does raise the question of health insurance, which you would need in Germany, and which isn't necessarily cheap if you don't have it through employment. Further research required.
> 
> 
> 
> Ask your local German consulate. The dog should be easy, not sure about the guinea pig.
> 
> 
> 
> Short answer: no. If you took German citizenship you would be required to give up US citizenship unless you were low income and could prove hardship due to the renunciation fee (US$2350). But taking German citizenship is a long process and it's by no means required, you could remain indefinitely as a permanent resident. The biggest reason to become German and get rid of US is of course to escape US tax filing obligations, and the fact that banks don't want US citizen customers due to FATCA and its reporting requirements.
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds rather a fantasy, particularly the farm bit. However, you can go 90 days out of 180 as a tourist so there's not reason not to give it a few three-month trials to see how things work out. You can't work an official job while visiting, but of course you can do farm chores in exchange for room and board.


Yeah I don't know if I'm reasonably worried about us being suspect for marrying without romance, or if that's just my paranoia, haha.

I think we'd fall under hobby farming. I think I mentioned it earlier in this post, we really just want to be self-sustaining. 

Will definitely research more about insurance and such!

My best friend and I have discussed me just visiting for three months at a time. The biggest concern I have, is that I'm unsure if I can really afford the visits. I won't be getting much money, and while I think I can make the payment to go over there, I feel like coming back and later returning repeatedly might be costly....

But maybe there's more to it than I realize. I'm a very naive adult, I'll admit.


----------



## Bevdeforges

There's one other big factor in your plans, and that's the exchange rates. If you'll be dependent on benefits coming from the US, you'll always have the exchange rate to worry about. Right now the rate is pretty good and it's in our favor (i.e. those of us receiving $ based benefits in Europe). But that can change over time.


----------



## ALKB

Amie23 said:


> Now, I know very little about my best friend's benefits, as she doesn't even totally understand what she has (her father manages it). I know that she receives it for being half-blind/half-deaf, but beyond that, I'm unsure.
> 
> My best friend lives in an apartment with her father right now. We've been looking at farms for sale and rent, and been seeking advice on how to best come to own one. Though, we don't know it will work.


She should ask her father about her benefits and if she can't give details, maybe you could just find out the category of benefits/the name? 

Like Sozialhilfe, Grundsicherung, SGB XII, Erwerbsminderungsrente, Wohngeld, Blindengeld?

If her benefits are means tested, then your income (your US benefits) would be part of the household income after you get married and you move in with her. That would mean that her benefits would be recalculated and most if not all of your benefits would be deducted from what she receives.

In most cases, paying rent would be financially supported but not owning property. Somebody applying for state benefits would be expected to sell their property and use up the money made from that before benefits would be paid out, so acquiring a property could be a problem, unless the property is extremely modest and really not worth anything. Owning enough land for farming would probably not work then.

On a different note: have you met face to face, yet?

At least one longer visit would be a good idea before moving continents.


----------



## Tellus

Hi, running a farm is very hard work for healthy and fit people, even as self-sufficient farmer.
So it might be easier if you be part of a community. In the eastern parts of Germany many young people organise it 's life in small farms, small villages because plots and houses are cheaper than in Western regions.

Just found a link for more information
https://www.transition-initiativen....Transition_Management_Handbook_Version_09.pdf

local transition groups could be helpful for you, especially by Inclusion (disability rights).
For the beginning of your "restart" in Germany a partnership / membership at a farm project could be helpful to learn and to assimilate in German culture.
Here's a list of transition groups in Germany
https://www.transition-initiativen.org/liste-der-transition-initiativen

btw. in case of marriage ...same sex unions marriage are legal in Germany


----------



## Amie23

Bevdeforges said:


> There's one other big factor in your plans, and that's the exchange rates. If you'll be dependent on benefits coming from the US, you'll always have the exchange rate to worry about. Right now the rate is pretty good and it's in our favor (i.e. those of us receiving $ based benefits in Europe). But that can change over time.


I didn't think about that! That's a good point!



ALKB said:


> She should ask her father about her benefits and if she can't give details, maybe you could just find out the category of benefits/the name?
> 
> Like Sozialhilfe, Grundsicherung, SGB XII, Erwerbsminderungsrente, Wohngeld, Blindengeld?
> 
> If her benefits are means tested, then your income (your US benefits) would be part of the household income after you get married and you move in with her. That would mean that her benefits would be recalculated and most if not all of your benefits would be deducted from what she receives.
> 
> In most cases, paying rent would be financially supported but not owning property. Somebody applying for state benefits would be expected to sell their property and use up the money made from that before benefits would be paid out, so acquiring a property could be a problem, unless the property is extremely modest and really not worth anything. Owning enough land for farming would probably not work then.
> 
> On a different note: have you met face to face, yet?
> 
> At least one longer visit would be a good idea before moving continents.


She had an optical test done today that could result in her receiving more money. But after she told me that, she went back to bed and our messenger isn't working right now, so I can't ask her about her benefits yet. 

We've been talking since 2013, but we haven't actually met face to face. We skype, and use various messengers, even have each other's phone numbers since we both have iPhones. But, no, we haven't actually met yet.

I've been thinking about our benefits recently, and just considering how it works for couples in the US, it has gotten me worried about how it would work for us, especially since we both receive benefits from our respective countries. It doesn't help neither of us has any idea what we're dealing with for oursevles.



Tellus said:


> Hi, running a farm is very hard work for healthy and fit people, even as self-sufficient farmer.
> So it might be easier if you be part of a community. In the eastern parts of Germany many young people organise it 's life in small farms, small villages because plots and houses are cheaper than in Western regions.
> 
> Just found a link for more information
> https://www.transition-initiativen....Transition_Management_Handbook_Version_09.pdf
> 
> local transition groups could be helpful for you, especially by Inclusion (disability rights).
> For the beginning of your "restart" in Germany a partnership / membership at a farm project could be helpful to learn and to assimilate in German culture.
> Here's a list of transition groups in Germany
> https://www.transition-initiativen.org/liste-der-transition-initiativen
> 
> btw. in case of marriage ...same sex unions marriage are legal in Germany



That's very helpful information! I'll definitely share it with her and we'll have to go over it together. 

Oh yes, we're aware about same-sex unions, but I'm more concerned about marrying without being romantic, if that makes sense. 
Would it look weird if we marry as best friends and then get romantic with other people? We've discussed that. We'd both be fine with it, but I don't want to look like we're doing something shady.


Thanks for all the replies! I truly appreciate them! And I'm going to heed everyone's advice!


----------



## Nononymous

I would think that a reconnaissance visit is the first priority.


----------



## ALKB

Nononymous said:


> I would think that a reconnaissance visit is the first priority.


Yes!

A visit may sound expensive but imagine how expensive it would be to make a move of that caliber and then find out after a few weeks that the Germans (or the French for that matter) are a grumpy bunch and it's hard to get to know them and things are horrid and you just want to go home.


----------



## *Sunshine*

Amie23 said:


> Would it look weird if we marry as best friends and then get romantic with other people? We've discussed that. We'd both be fine with it, but I don't want to look like we're doing something shady.


What you are planning to do is not only extremely shady, but getting married in order to obtain a residence permit is a criminal offense in Germany and does not entitle you to a German residence permit.


----------



## *Sunshine*

Nononymous said:


> the nature of your relationship isn't really relevant unless the authorities suspect an immigration scam.





ALKB said:


> The bit where your relationship may be questioned is when you apply for your spouse residence permit. But if your relationship (and you define your relationship) is genuine and you want to make a life together I don't see why they would deny you on relationship grounds.


Have either of you ever bothered to actually *read* the AufenthG? The law specifically states that getting married to obtain a residence permit does NOT grant the foreign spouse the right to live in Germany. 

The guy wants to marry a woman he has never met in order to obtain a German residence permit, that is pretty much the definition of a Scheinehe, which is explicitly not protected in Germany. 



> § 27 Grundsatz des Familiennachzugs
> 
> (1) Die Aufenthaltserlaubnis zur Herstellung und Wahrung der familiären Lebensgemeinschaft im Bundesgebiet für ausländische Familienangehörige (Familiennachzug) wird zum Schutz von Ehe und Familie gemäß Artikel 6 des Grundgesetzes erteilt und verlängert.
> 
> (1a) Ein Familiennachzug wird nicht zugelassen, wenn
> 
> 1. feststeht, dass die Ehe oder das Verwandtschaftsverhältnis ausschließlich zu dem Zweck geschlossen oder begründet wurde, dem Nachziehenden die Einreise in das und den Aufenthalt im Bundesgebiet zu ermöglichen, oder


Source: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/aufenthg_2004/__27.html


----------



## Amie23

*Sunshine* said:


> Nononymous said:
> 
> 
> 
> the nature of your relationship isn't really relevant unless the authorities suspect an immigration scam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ALKB said:
> 
> 
> 
> The bit where your relationship may be questioned is when you apply for your spouse residence permit. But if your relationship (and you define your relationship) is genuine and you want to make a life together I don't see why they would deny you on relationship grounds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Have either of you ever bothered to actually *read* the AufenthG? The law specifically states that getting married to obtain a residence permit does NOT grant the foreign spouse the right to live in Germany.
> 
> The guy wants to marry a woman he has never met in order to obtain a German residence permit, that is pretty much the definition of a Scheinehe, which is explicitly not protected in Germany.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> § 27 Grundsatz des Familiennachzugs
> 
> (1) Die Aufenthaltserlaubnis zur Herstellung und Wahrung der familiären Lebensgemeinschaft im Bundesgebiet für ausländische Familienangehörige (Familiennachzug) wird zum Schutz von Ehe und Familie gemäß Artikel 6 des Grundgesetzes erteilt und verlängert.
> 
> (1a) Ein Familiennachzug wird nicht zugelassen, wenn
> 
> 1. feststeht, dass die Ehe oder das Verwandtschaftsverhältnis ausschließlich zu dem Zweck geschlossen oder begründet wurde, dem Nachziehenden die Einreise in das und den Aufenthalt im Bundesgebiet zu ermöglichen, oder
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Source: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/aufenthg_2004/__27.html
Click to expand...

This is interesting information.

(Also I currently use she/her pronouns)

But I mean, it isn’t like I’m going to marry her and get divorced once I’m in and allowed to stay. 
We’ve discussed it, and if we do have to divorce due to not working well as a unit/couple, then I’ll come back to the US. 

We have every intention of staying together if we do marry. She’s my best friend, and while not romantically necessarily, I do love her.

Also, it is possible that even if she and I don’t work out, that I’ll end up seeing multiple people anyway, I’m open to being polyamorous, although I haven’t had any poly experience yet. 
So I mean, even if she and I see others, couldn’t it just look like a poly/ “open relationship” situation? Sure there isn’t a legal term for that, but it is more socially accepted than used to be, as far as I understand.

Thanks!


----------



## Nononymous

*Sunshine* said:


> Have either of you ever bothered to actually *read* the AufenthG? The law specifically states that getting married to obtain a residence permit does NOT grant the foreign spouse the right to live in Germany.


Hence my comment "unless the authorities suspect an immigration scam" - and frankly it's rather likely that the authorities would view an open platonic benefits-financed same-sex relationship between two people who'd not actually met as the world's least convincing green-card marriage. 

In any case, actually visiting Germany seems like the logical first step, before making any further plans.


----------



## *Sunshine*

Nononymous said:


> Hence my comment "unless the authorities suspect an immigration scam" - and frankly it's rather likely that the authorities would view an open platonic benefits-financed same-sex relationship between two people who'd not actually met as the world's least convincing green-card marriage.
> 
> In any case, actually visiting Germany seems like the logical first step, before making any further plans.


Although I agree that visiting first would be a good idea, it doesn't change the fact that what Amie is currently planning is considered a criminal offence in Germany and that needs to be made very clear to her.


----------



## *Sunshine*

Amie23 said:


> But I mean, it isn’t like I’m going to marry her and get divorced once I’m in and allowed to stay.
> We’ve discussed it, and if we do have to divorce due to not working well as a unit/couple, then I’ll come back to the US.
> 
> We have every intention of staying together if we do marry. She’s my best friend, and while not romantically necessarily, I do love her.
> 
> Also, it is possible that even if she and I don’t work out, that I’ll end up seeing multiple people anyway, I’m open to being polyamorous, although I haven’t had any poly experience yet.
> So I mean, even if she and I see others, couldn’t it just look like a poly/ “open relationship” situation? Sure there isn’t a legal term for that, but it is more socially accepted than used to be, as far as I understand.


Although it is theoretically possible to marry your penpal without committing any crimes, as soon as you apply for a family reunification permit on the basis of the relationship you describe you are committing a criminal offence under German law. German law specifically only provides for family reunification in cases where couples are in a romantic relationship. Due to the increase in sham marriages in Germany, the Germans are starting to crack down harder on criminals who try to abuse the system.

There is no way for you to immigrate to Germany with this plan without telling multiple lies and breaking German laws and I think it is very irresponsible for the others here not to warn you of this.


----------



## Bevdeforges

Look, we're not here to "police" the laws of Germany or any other country. OTOH, Sunshine is very justified in raising the issue that some of the details of this case are likely to cause the OP and friend some significant problems if they pursue the plan in its current form.

There's nothing illegal about an "open marriage" in Germany - however, if there are any doubts about the legitimacy of the marriage, the fact of never having met face to face prior to the marriage will cause big problems. If the marriage is questioned, they will want statements from mutual friends (preferably in Germany) attesting to the duration of the relationship, how and when you met, etc. - and you can't really ask people to perjure themselves for you like that. People get married for all sorts of strange reasons, but in case of any doubts, the onus is on you to "prove" that you aren't doing so in order to either get a visa/residence permit or to qualify for benefits related to your existing conditions. They don't really care about the "romantic side" of the relationship.

I only mention this because back when I had my immigration problems in France, we thought they were questioning the validity of our marriage. The main problem, however, was actually my somewhat irregular entry into France. Which raises the other issue - namely that they can turn you down for immigration without having to give you a reason for doing so. The other issue here is that it is notoriously difficult for a foreigner (of any nationality) to marry a German in Germany - which is why the suggestion has been made of getting married in Denmark.


----------



## ALKB

*Sunshine* said:


> Although it is theoretically possible to marry your penpal without committing any crimes, as soon as you apply for a family reunification permit on the basis of the relationship you describe you are committing a criminal offence under German law. German law specifically only provides for family reunification in cases where couples are in a romantic relationship. Due to the increase in sham marriages in Germany, the Germans are starting to crack down harder on criminals who try to abuse the system.
> 
> There is no way for you to immigrate to Germany with this plan without telling multiple lies and breaking German laws and I think it is very irresponsible for the others here not to warn you of this.


I didn't understand the situation as OP marrying to get a residence permit but as OP marrying to make a life with her German friend. 

Love comes in many forms - the law allows for arranged marriages, no? I have lived in Pakistan and know couples who have met for the first time on their wedding day, after they had already signed all the relevant papers, now have several children but I wouldn't call them romantically involved. I wouldn't even go so far as calling them friends. Some of them can hardly stand being in the same room for more than a few minutes. Yet their marriage is valid. Amie's situation sounds more romantic/emotionally committed than any of those couples.

By the way, I know more than one German couple who married for companionship and don't love each other 'that way' but still deeply care for the other.

When I said that they define their relationship, I did not know that they had never met so far and yes, getting married in such a situation is dangerous on both personal and legal levels (although an American marrying a long distance partner is probably less suspicious than a guy from a third world country suddenly showing up with an eastern European wife whom he met a week before marriage and has no common language with), especially when both partners are relatively young and vulnerable.


----------



## *Sunshine*

Bevdeforges said:


> Look, we're not here to "police" the laws of Germany or any other country. OTOH, Sunshine is very justified in raising the issue that some of the details of this case are likely to cause the OP and friend some significant problems if they pursue the plan in its current form.
> 
> There's nothing illegal about an "open marriage" in Germany - however, if there are any doubts about the legitimacy of the marriage, the fact of never having met face to face prior to the marriage will cause big problems. If the marriage is questioned, they will want statements from mutual friends (preferably in Germany) attesting to the duration of the relationship, how and when you met, etc. - and you can't really ask people to perjure themselves for you like that. People get married for all sorts of strange reasons, but in case of any doubts, the onus is on you to "prove" that you aren't doing so in order to either get a visa/residence permit or to qualify for benefits related to your existing conditions. They don't really care about the "romantic side" of the relationship.
> 
> I only mention this because back when I had my immigration problems in France, we thought they were questioning the validity of our marriage. The main problem, however, was actually my somewhat irregular entry into France. Which raises the other issue - namely that they can turn you down for immigration without having to give you a reason for doing so. The other issue here is that it is notoriously difficult for a foreigner (of any nationality) to marry a German in Germany - which is why the suggestion has been made of getting married in Denmark.


How exactly is your experience in *France* relevant to a discussion about the LAW in Germany? 

Although I do work for a government department ìn Germany, I'm not trying to police anything. I do, however, feel it important to provide Amie with accurate information in order for her to make her plans and I am appalled at the inaccurate information provided by people who are obviously ignorant of how things work in Germany. 

Furthermore, your advice regarding Denmark is also outdated; as of January 1, 2019, non-resident foreigners who want to marry in Denmark will have to apply through a central authority that has been established to screen out fake marriages.


----------



## *Sunshine*

ALKB said:


> Love comes in many forms - the law allows for arranged marriages, no? I have lived in Pakistan and know couples who have met for the first time on their wedding day, after they had already signed all the relevant papers, now have several children but I wouldn't call them romantically involved. I wouldn't even go so far as calling them friends. Some of them can hardly stand being in the same room for more than a few minutes. Yet their marriage is valid. Amie's situation sounds more romantic/emotionally committed than any of those couples.
> 
> By the way, I know more than one German couple who married for companionship and don't love each other 'that way' but still deeply care for the other.
> 
> When I said that they define their relationship, I did not know that they had never met so far and yes, getting married in such a situation is dangerous on both personal and legal levels (although an American marrying a long distance partner is probably less suspicious than a guy from a third world country suddenly showing up with an eastern European wife whom he met a week before marriage and has no common language with), especially when both partners are relatively young and vulnerable.


First of all, who cares what they do in Pakistan? Just because you can buy any official document you need in Pakistan doesn't mean you can do so in Germany. 

Love may come in many different forms, however, that is not the issue. The issue is that in Germany the type of relationship Amie describes is not one that makes her eligible for a family reunification permit.


----------



## Bevdeforges

I also lived in Germany for a while and have observed where laws and administrative practices are similar (and different) between the countries and throughout the EU. It's not up to us here on the forum to determine the legality (or not) of things that forum members are proposing or asking about. 

Plenty of folks here on the forum have suggested to people looking to marry Germans that they should go to Denmark instead. Whether the new procedures for weeding out fake marriages will work is anyone's guess at this point. But even if you're perfectly legally and legitimately married, there isn't necessarily the right for your non-German spouse to obtain a visa or residence documents based solely on the fact of the marriage. (That seems to be the case in most countries these days.) I believe you were the one to point this out earlier in the thread.

Regardless of the motivations or arrangements for the marriage, I think Amie is going to run afoul of various suspicions and red flags that the situation offers. OTOH, I'm all for treating her inquiries as being sincere questions rather than some sort of nefarious attempt to break the law.


----------



## Tellus

I totally agree with AKLB. The days are gone, thank God, when neighbors are punting yet other people who weren't married to each other. In Germany we didn't get Moralpolizei or Sharia yet.

The law is primarily intended to prevent uncontrolled people from non-EU countries from becoming settled in Germany and letting their families (large families) follow.
But it is hardly applicable when two people who like each other (I'm not talking about love) want to get married and settle in Germany.

Example: I could marry my "niece " although we do not love each other.
(We are not blood-related) This is how she and her children would be beyond my death supplied.

On the other hand I got a friend who used to live 'n work in Munich until he has been retired. Than suddenly he moved to US and married a woman. Never did he talk about her to me..Love ?? I 'm in doubt.

btw. Marriages in DK are possible in 2019
https://toender.dk/citizen/getting-married/getting-married?language=en


----------



## *Sunshine*

Bevdeforges said:


> I'm all for treating her inquiries as being sincere questions rather than some sort of nefarious attempt to break the law.


She actually comes across as sincere and very naive to me, which is why I find it so upsetting that you are providing her so much inaccurate information. Although I don't believe there is any malice on your part, I do find it very irresponsible.


----------



## *Sunshine*

Tellus said:


> Example: I could marry my "niece " although we do not love each other.
> (We are not blood-related) This is how she and her children would be beyond my death supplied.


You mean a Versorgungsehe? 

https://www.deutsche-rentenversiche...ns/Glossar.html?cms_lv2=422844&cms_lv3=217680

Although I realise that it is still possible to get married in Denmark, it will not necessarily still be fast for foreigners (especially those who entering into sham marriages).


----------



## Nononymous

*Sunshine* said:


> She actually comes across as sincere and very naive to me, which is why I find it so upsetting that you are providing her so much inaccurate information. Although I don't believe there is any malice on your part, I do find it very irresponsible.


If you want me to be brutally honest, I would have advised of those difficulties if I thought this was a serious plan. But when marriage in Denmark is not possible because of dog-sitting challenges, nor has a trip to visit ever been undertaken, then it's not really a serious plan. 

Also depending on the nature of the relationship I wouldn't call this purely a scam marriage, if it's two people caring for one another. Also I don't know how vigilant the authorities are when US or Canadian passports are involved. I won't name names but I do have a friend or two who have married when they otherwise would not have because of residence permits.


----------



## Bevdeforges

*Sunshine* said:


> She actually comes across as sincere and very naive to me, which is why I find it so upsetting that you are providing her so much inaccurate information. Although I don't believe there is any malice on your part, I do find it very irresponsible.


I don't see where she has been given inaccurate information. What people have been doing is pointing out the problems with the plan as it is. We're really not in a position here to say "do this and you will succeed." Mostly, our job here is to point out problems or matters where it might do well to reconsider your approach or to do further research. 

Amie has another query in over on the French forum, where the main issue is that she doesn't have a "reason" for living in France - other than perhaps to study, though there are some issues with that approach, too.


----------



## Tellus

*Sunshine* said:


> You mean a Versorgungsehe?
> 
> https://www.deutsche-rentenversiche...ns/Glossar.html?cms_lv2=422844&cms_lv3=217680
> 
> Although I realise that it is still possible to get married in Denmark, it will not necessarily still be fast for foreigners (especially those who entering into sham marriages).


OMG like small-minded you have to be ...:amen:

Ohh, just read my horoscope: don't feed trolls.


----------



## Tellus

just watched a report in German TV about Marriage in Denmark, from Aero Island.
The reason for a change of process shall be a more centralized registering to the Government in Copenhagen. Actual only the regional comune administration do register.
Bit more beaurocracy. 
Fi. a couple from London, both Argentines, came to Aero comune for marriage because it takes a long time in UK to get all papers.


----------

