# Is it safe to invest in land???



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

We are putting our house on the market (Virginia) with the intent of immigrating to SA to start a sheep farm in partnership with a SA family who owns a private game reserve. Immigration requires an investment of R2.5 million for a permanent visa. I am hearing horror stories of farm land being reclaimed by the government, rampant crime, steady devaluation of the Rand, etc. Are we making a big mistake?


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Rent your House in Virginia (I gather House sales in the US are a bit slow at the mo)
If you must, take out a loan that you could easily repay in 5 years if you returned to the US.
Anything food will make money in SA but I strongly suggest you take at least 6 months of living there to decide.
The Govt have just launched a new expropriation bill that is pretty horrific in its limitation of property rights but it all boils down to how valuable your land is.
Points to find out about land in SA,
Are there any existing land claims, if so are there any graves on the property?
why are the previous owners selling?
Go down to the local Police Station and ask to see the Incident book for at least a year.
That will tell you the level of crime, what type of crime,stocktheft etc..
find out from the estate Agent how many properties are on sale, how many have actually transferred in the past two years(you can buy this info)
Security and schooling.
I dont know of any farmers who dont own fire arms for very good reasons.
and its not becuase of lions in the backyard.
You will NOT get a firearm licence for at least two years as a Citizen and you will NOT become a citizen in less than a year,possibly 3.
If you really want to farm in Africa, Tanzania and even Kenya are better bets.
There are large expat US communities in Kenya who can advise you, Atlanta CDC is big in Africa as are the Church of the Nazerene Missions
Go and spend six months in SA, on a farm, before you commit your life savings.
Then only invest half of what you are asked to.


----------



## mmm (Jun 18, 2008)

live the dream


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

*Is it safe ...*

Thank you Daxk. I wish we could rent the VA house. Frankly, I wouldn't trust anyone here not to trash it and, regardless, my husband does not want to return to VA even if it doesn't work out in SA. We will be moving to the Vredefort area near Parys, which seems to be a pretty safe area. (We've already talked to the police). We've also visited a sheep farm there (which, to my amazement, was cleaner and more well organized than any I've seen in the States) and the local slaughter house (ditto to quality) who told us they can process all we can produce.

The family we are going into partnership with is multigeneration SA and are politically well connected and will do all they can to help us. For the moment we have rented a house for 6 months to give us time to look around and get a true feel of the place while we look for land. Good advice on land clams, etc.

And we most definitely won't invest all our $$$ in ANY one country! Although the interest rate in SA is far higher than it is here.

And mmm - this will definitely be living the dream. My British born, New Zealand raised husband has wanted to 1) live in Africa and 2) sheep farm full time since he was a little boy. Now, at 60, the opportunity has come to our door ...


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Live your dream.? know Frankfort near Parys well, little sandstone houses, village community,had an aunt who lived there.
I too am multi generational, since 1725 in fact.
If I won the euro Millions 150 million Euro, the last place on earth I would go and live is SA.
But then I have lived there for 54 years.
whatever you do, dont do a deal where the land is registered in someone elses name, no matter how many attorneys are involved.


----------



## synthia (Apr 18, 2007)

I think you should wait longer before investing in a house or farm of your own, a year at least. You need to go through all the seasons, and have a chance to be really comfortable with where you are.

Does South Africa still have restrictions on how much money you can take out of the country? And how quickly you have to get it out if you leave? Restrictions like that could make it difficult if you want to move on.


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Synthia, you can take out what you brought in plus the profit after Tax


----------



## mmm (Jun 18, 2008)

seeker said:


> And mmm - this will definitely be living the dream. My British born, New Zealand raised husband has wanted to 1) live in Africa and 2) sheep farm full time since he was a little boy. Now, at 60, the opportunity has come to our door ...


then you have nothing to lose


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

*Is it safe ...*

Daxk,

Why would SA be the last place you would live? And does anyone have difinitive info about taking money out of the country?


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

And what do you mean by not doing a deal where land is registered in someone else's name? Not do a partnership?


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Seeker, in reverse order, you are a newbie in the country, a country that has a Judicial system that is open to bribes and civil claims take forever.
Let me hasten to add that this has nothing to do with the colour or race of the participants.
If you part with money for a farm that is not registered in your name but in that of a partnership, what are the limits of that partnership,if the other party defaults somewhere, can you be sure that their share of the venture is not set out as a guarantee etc. 
If, it is registered solely in the other parties name as you are still awaiting your Perm residence(which can take 4 years) then you are totally in their hands.
A number of foreign investors, especially in the Western Cape have been caught this way. Google Noseweek, invest in a subscription, it tends to be pretty accurate.

Definite info about taking money out.
Sa Reserve Bank or SA Revenue service, both tend to answer their emails.
Unless things have changed in the last 24 hours, you can take out an equal amount that you brought in plus any profit you made less Income tax/Capital Gains tax.
You cannot take ANYTHING out without Income Tax clearance and SA reserve Bank Clearance.
And they will decide if you have paid enough tax.
lastly, why will I never live there again?
I dont wish to repeat that I was a victim of crime, search all posts by Daxk and read.
I also have a 9 year old daughter and a strong desire to live to a ripe old age.

Living on a farm? living the dream? yep.
Reality?
There is a strong feeling that people who live on SA farms are at extreme risk as more farmers as a profession get murdered than any other profession.(Source google farm murders za)
Because of the size of farms, especially ion the area you are looking at, Houses tend to be isolated and the SA Police Services are understaffed, under equipped and under motivated.
allied to the fact that your nearest SA police Station might be an hour away makes it difficult.
a lot of the farmers use marnet, which is a two way radio Netwerk,similar to to the Australian outback setup but the Govt frown on this.
in case of trouble everyone grabs a gun and heads over to whomever has called for help.
You will not have a firearm until at least two years after you have citizenship.
Google SA Firearm licences za

They also used to have a sort of Blockwatch self help system called the commandos which the government disbanded as they have this fear of white guys in Military uniforms with semi Automatic rifles.

They tried to replace it with a Police reserve but then expected the farmers to protect areas away from their wives and children.
That sort of killed that one.

As the majority of the criminals tend to be young, older, retired people are often seen as easy targets.

and the judicial sytem does not help.
at the last survey, 9% of all murders and 11% of all Rapes get solved and convicted.
There is an average of 50 murders and 150 rapes per day in South africa.
does that answer your question?
I dont care wether you go there or not, but go with your eyes open and informed.


----------



## Deepdiver47 (Jun 20, 2008)

The land issue is becoming thorny. After watching Zim we all said it wont happen here, but it is. There are current 'issues' about wine farms around Stellenbosch, Farming land in what used to be the Eastern Transvaal and ongoing drama in the KwaZulu midlands. I know this because I've just studied it at University. 

My brother in law, good died-in-the-wool permanent optimist that he is is trying to buy a farm on the Breede riveer, but is having some trouble because of a land claim that has been suggested. You really dont want your dog in that fight. 

The overall problem is that you may purchase only to find a claim lodged after purchase, and you lose your land. I would sooner try to find a way to enter using the cash as collateral instead of direct investment in land.


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

Deepdiver47,
We're hoping that having time to look around while we rent will give us the opportunity to research and avoid such a problem. Best of luck to your brother-in-law.


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

Just curious Daxk, where do you live now? I have read some of your other posts and you (and your friends and family) certainly have experienced more than your share of horrific incidents. I'm taken back to my "idyllic" youth in beautiful Monterey / Carmel CA where I was twice a victim of violent crime before I was 20 (knife and gun). Do you not think crime is everywhere, or am I being naive?


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Seeker, Crime is everywhere, I am neither naieve nor stupid,nor do I or my family have large "kick me" signs stuck to our backs.

If I were to wander around Central Park. Londons Dockland, Parts of SF, Marseilles etc, I am pretty certain that I would be mugged with either a gun or a knife as I was too in Central Johannessburg,in broad daylight in a lunchtime crowd.

In the same way, I could be hi-jacked with a fire arm anywhere in the world
removed forcibly from my car

However, if you have been reading up on your future home, on either
News24, South Africa's premier news source, provides breaking news on national, world, Africa, sport, entertainment, technology & more. or iol.co.za, both of which are reputable news media, you might have picked up that gratuitous violence, unneccessary violence ,quite often rape, happens AFTER the criminals have got what they came for.
That, and the frequency of it, is what makes SA stand out.

What did your attacker do after he had your wallet and watch?
stick around to cut your fingers off so he could get the wedding ring off?

Yes, Cape Town, perhaps because it is so far from illegal immigrant borders, seems to have a lower incidence of Hi-jackings and Armed home invasions, , small villages in the Farming areas do have a lower incidence of crime, you could, spend 40 years in SA and not experience personally any violent crime, but if you do, it tends to be a biggie.

I clearly said, I dont care wether you go or not, do your research , google farm murders and farm crime if you are going to live on a farm.

look at what other farmers, especially in your area ( Look at the incident Book at the Police station) do about protection and follow suit.

I also told you,I live in Galway,Ireland, I have a 9 year old daughter.
We have had two murders in 2 years.

Do whatever you wish, accept or ignore advice given to you.
You mentioned your husband was 60, have you looked at Medical care and ambulance services in the area you wish to move to ?

I am also of the age where heart attacks,strokes and various other age related dangers are very possible.
I suggest you find out where and what is available.


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Hey Seeker, Carte Blanche is a very good actuality programme in SA.

MNET - WHERE MAGIC LIVES
is part one of three parts of a broadcast.
or google Carte Blanche za look for video broadcasts.

I assume gloken and co will find it bilous too.


----------



## Deepdiver47 (Jun 20, 2008)

Hi Seeker. 

I worked as a cop in the US and Canada whilst based in the West Indies for 8 years. I was shot at once. Since I've been here I've been shot at twice, involved (walking by, not participant!) in three armed robberies - one a bank and the subject of two armed car heists, both, due to presence of mind, I avoided. 

But this is off topic. Your issue was property investment, which I hope we've helped a little with. As I've said before,you can go to the doom and gloom section yourself!


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

Daxk,
I was asking if I was being naive - not you. My purpose for being on this forum is to get as much information as I can so I can make an informed decision, so thank you for the news resources. I've only been looking at Mail & Guardian, as that's all I knew about.

Given the fact that my husband (although 60 he is VERY fit and a well trained ex British para) has his heart and mind set on making this move, I'm trying to learn what to be aware of and how to protect our finances and investments, as well as our lives!


----------



## mmm (Jun 18, 2008)

seeker said:


> Given the fact that my husband (although 60 he is VERY fit and a well trained ex British para) has his heart and mind set on making this move, I'm trying to learn what to be aware of and how to protect our finances and investments, as well as our lives!


are you not as enthusiastic as you husband for the move?


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

mmm,

Intellectually, yes - emotionally, no. We have a beautiful home on 48 acres in the Shenandoah Valley of VA. I will be leaving my home, my country and my children (21 and 22). However, we are both slaves to supporting our home which is far too large and our kids have moved out. We will have to sell our propertry eventually anyway, as neither of us has much retirement, so it makes sense to do it now when we still have the health and energy to start a new life elsewhere. It's just a huge move. But I've never seen my husband happier or more relaxed than when he's in SA. That counts for more than anything else.


----------



## mmm (Jun 18, 2008)

well you know whats in your heart but you doing the right thing looking at all options before deciding


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Well,Seeker,I was an extremely fit 54 who has also been where the eagle screams so anytime Hubby wants to swop war stories I'm there.
As he wont be able to buy a firearm for at least two years I suggest he buys himself a crossbow and gets real good and fast with it .
I wish you both a long, safe and Happy life.i


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

He doesn't talk war stories. He just wants to enjoy the African wildlife and sheep farm full time - both dreams from his childhood in New Zealand. I only mentioned it to say we aren't tottering on the edge of senility, but still want to know medical options.

I've just visited the news sources you gave me. Jeses - is there ANY good news in SA? I'm going from concern to panic and downright depression about this move ...


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

I suppose you could visit GoodnewsSa but they struggle to find meaningful good news.
Seeker, I re-iterate.
Carte Blanche is a well respected Actuality program. it does good news stories too, just not many.
unfortunately, the attitude by the majority of SA cans now is to shoot the messenger.
the two i gave you, news24 and IOL are both good news feeds and are both respected by Reuters and other News Agencies.
My comment about war stories was to point out that no matter how fit,or experienced,or trained you are. If the odds are stacked ,discretion is the better part of valour.
a very good friend lost the ability to ever run the Comrades again last year,he threw a garden chair at his robber.
The robber stepped aside and shot him through the chest.
Survived but his lungs dont function too well.

Told you, live the dream, do what is right for you, but Olive Steiners African Farm was fiction.


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

I'm not questioning the validity of the news sources. I'll check them daily. (And I'll insist he read them as well).
I agree that discretion is the better part of valour. I'm trying to practice discretion by educating myself. It just all sounds so discouraging...


----------



## MichelleAlison (Aug 25, 2007)

Why South Africa? I am sure there are other places where you can farm and certainly much safer? 

I have a South African friend here (Argentina) who told me that on a good weekend only 80 people are murdered in SA. On a bad weekend 150..................

How do your children feel about you moving to SA?

Regards

Michelle


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

South Africa because we have been there 3 times and loved it and we've become close with a local family that we will be partnering with, both in our sheep farm and in their long-established safari business. 
Our kids both want to come as well, at least to check it out (they've not been there) but need to finish college first.


----------



## MichelleAlison (Aug 25, 2007)

I couldn't live in fear - I found London dangerous enough without having to worry about arming myself.

You must be really brave after everything you have read here and in other places.

You appear to want re-assurance, but it doesn't look like you are going to get it on this forum I'm afraid. Good luck anyway.

Michelle


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

It certainly doesn't!


----------



## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

MichelleAlison said:


> I couldn't live in fear - I found London dangerous enough without having to worry about arming myself.
> 
> You must be really brave after everything you have read here and in other places.
> 
> ...


Problem is Michelle, every forum seems to say the same. The same warnings, the same worries, and as most of the people who post seem to be people who have actually been there and experienced it, should people disregard the advice given?


----------



## MichelleAlison (Aug 25, 2007)

Stravinsky said:


> Problem is Michelle, every forum seems to say the same. The same warnings, the same worries, and as most of the people who post seem to be people who have actually been there and experienced it, should people disregard the advice given?


I would heed the advice and certainly not ignore it..........................


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

I certainly won't ignore the advice and I am very grateful for the news resources provided. Curious however. When I was last in the Parys area (last August and my husband this May) there was great development going on - new highways, a huge tourism center and a second private golf resort being built. The Vredefort Dome is a World Heritage site Vredefort Dome - UNESCO World Heritage Centre and real estate prices seem to be pretty high. Who is building these and who is going to buy these properties if the country is in such trouble?


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Seeker, what do the above have to do with crime?
SA's major problem is crime and the SAPS's inability and Govt's lack of Desire to address it.

SA has had 5 years of Boom because of the Raw resource Boom, 5.6% growth in GDP pa ,thats great news, at the same time it has had the worst performing currency for the past 3 years, all of which should encourage tourism and Foreign Investment.
it should also have reduced the unemployment figures, it has'nt

Because of the crime, because of the political instability fears around Jacob Zuma, Polokwane and then the disaster of Eskom in January 2006, SA's growth for this period is at 2.1%, That is disasterous, as is inflation at 11%

Right now if you wanted to build a Factory or a Complex of Townhouses, Particularly in GAuteng, you will be told that you can build it but they cannot give you electricity and in some cases, water Connections for at least 3 years.

The Highways you have seen being built, the Stadia, are all part of what they had to do for 2010.
It was necessary iro the highways, as road maintenance is 5 YEARS in arrears.
Yes, tourism is up,9.3 million visitors last year, but 70% of those came from Lesotho and Mocambique and Zambia and Nigeria, what do you think the Zenophobic attacks will do to that figure?

Its a beautiful Country,Seeker, it looks great, I did'nt say you are going to go out there and go bankrupt, there is money to be made in SA, especially if you have foreign Currency, I warned you about Crime.
I mentioned to you that because of crime, especially on isolated farms, a lot of farmers are giving up.

I mentioned to you that the SA police services are'nt always very motivated, todays snippet about the butcher in the Free State is a case in point.
However, if we cant get the Police to respond in Densely populated areas, how will they do it in farming Areas?

The majority of serious Cime involves Firearms, be it invasions,hi-jackings,rapes or even stock theft, which is also quite rampant.

You and your Husband CANNOT get a firearm licence until you have permanent residence and then it takes two years.
at least.
that is 730 nights that if something happens, you are unarmed.

it may not.

But you are going to be cospicuous haves in a land of have nots.
New car or 4x4, new tv, new farm etc, you cant open a current bank account without a permanent residence, so you will be walking around,paying for everything in Cash.
In a land where life is as cheap as a cellphone.

I dont care.
Its your lives.your dreams.


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks again. Good info. (Actually, we already have a bank account in SA).


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

"todays snippet about the butcher in the Free State is a case in point."

I'm almost afraid to ask? Don't see it on 24?


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

"You will also be required to provide the bank with an original and valid South African temporary residence permit issued by the Department of Home Affairs."
OK, I see they have lifted the restrictions a bit,
The butcher was quite funny, armed robbery and attempted Hi-Jacking, jumped into his bakkie etc shot at him , wife called the Police who did'nt pitch up, so someone had to drive to the police Station to fetch them.
butcher asked when forensics were going to come and collect the emty shell casings for evidence.
response was that the butcher should pick them up and bring them to the Police Station, which he did.


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Bring us the casings, says cop: South Africa: News: News24
The Butcher of Botshabelo


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

jeez. Amazing.


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

you also get good,motivated Cops who love their job and do it well.
Luck of the draw.


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

Probably wasn't too smart to be making multiple unescorted trips to a vehicle with money bags ...


----------



## synthia (Apr 18, 2007)

So the person who told him to pick up the casings is the only person in the world who has never seen CSI? Though I guess leaving a crime scene intact doesn't make much sense if the CSI people are never going to arrive.


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

Probably. I don't recall seeing CSI on SA TV.


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Synthia, there are very good Policemen in SA, there are also,unfortunately,a lot of corrupt, and stupid ones with an attitude problem.
Not all of them,just some,
Because of Affirmative Action, the SAPS has lost a lot of experienced officers, on the force as well as in the Infrastructure.
as of a year ago, the forensics lab was so understaffed that they were two years behind in all of their tests.
Then more staff left.
The attitude in SA is also that if there's no one dead,raped or injured, you were lucky and it normally would'nt make the news.
The SA Press were asked in 2004 to only report "serious" crime where there was injury in 2004 as it was affecting SA's image and was bad for House sales..


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Seeker, did you audit news24, property section today about the Land expropriation Bill?
Just worth being aware of


----------



## Deepdiver47 (Jun 20, 2008)

Daxk said:


> Seeker, did you audit news24, property section today about the Land expropriation Bill?
> Just worth being aware of



Cabinet approves land expropriation Bill - Mail & Guardian Online: The smart news source


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

I have now. Thanks.


----------



## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

Wow. Ther's a bunch of hyperbole on this board.

Let me just point out to anyone that is thinking of coming to live in South Africa , that these boards are trolled by two kinds of people.

1) White South Africans who (no matter what they tell you) are the extremely rare and freakish victims of violent crime. 2% of all violent crime affects white South Africans , and violent crime records are now the lowest they have been in 14 years and the same as 1994 (before the ANC took over). So while South Africa does have a crime problem , it's nothing close to as bad or horrific as some people would have you believe. The problem is unlike other countires when something violent happens in South Africa the tendency is to blame the government and to irrationally feel that your experience is widespread. The media perpetuates this baseless viewpoint. Less than 1 white South Africa is murdered every day in South Africa , and tourist murderes are a freakish occurance and less than a place considered safe such as Thailand (very low).

2) White South Africans who are going to be extremely negative about anything regardless of the facts. They have an agenda to discredit the black government and frequently say crazy things such as "the economy has gone to hell" in the time when South Africa was enjoying the highest economic growth and period of social enrichment in it's history. You will find them in bars all over South Africa taking great thrill in anything that goes wrong in the country and shouting it from every rooftop. 

Neither party represents the true South Africa. They are emotive , and not rational. While I pity anyone whose gone through a traumatic loss , I would urge third parties to be wary of their analysis of the overall situation.


----------



## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

Regarding owning land in South Africa. Hell yes !!

It's great value for money in one of the world premier developing economies. Despite the hype in the worse case scenario that the government wants your land , you have the constitution on your side. Failing that , they have to pay a higher than market value price (and do !) to take it from you. My family went through this process and found the government to actually be toothless in touching our land. However they kept coming back with more offers until we could not resist and we willing sold some land to them.

It's a good and exciting place to live in South Africa. The biggest concerns of your day are likely to be whether you will go golfing of boating on the weekend. We enjoy a high standard of living compared to our counterparts in england and the rest of the "western" world. If you rational asses and manage the risks you'd find that you're no more likely to murdered than in many parts of the united states than you are in South Africa as a middle classed person. I have lived in South Africa most of my life (but also in england , and various parts of asia) and I can tell you that I invest zero time into worrying about being safe. The idea of being murdered has never crossed my mind and certainly no-one I know personally has ever been murdered. I live in the eastern cape , so maybe joburg is different. But i can think of many reasons to not live in joburg other than crime anyway.


----------



## Deepdiver47 (Jun 20, 2008)

Hi bovinerebel. Not wanting to dampen any of your enthusiasm, which is always great, but where do you get your facts from? I'm pretty sure we are not one of the Worlds premier developing economies. My wife is a professional economist working for the UCT, and its not what I hear.


----------



## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

Deepdiver47 said:


> Hi bovinerebel. Not wanting to dampen any of your enthusiasm, which is always great, but where do you get your facts from? I'm pretty sure we are not one of the Worlds premier developing economies. My wife is a professional economist working for the UCT, and its not what I hear.


Hey deepdiver. Ask your wife if she'd having trouble accepting that South Africa (just the new rung below Brazil , China and India) was not one of the worlds more promosing and attractive economies to invest in. We're enjoying steady and record economic growth with the 4th highest new dollar millionares every year out of any countries per capita in the world. We're the gateway to africa with so much potential for growth with the emerging black middle class throughout the continent and within south africa itself. South Africa is a fantastic place to invest with great infrastructure and potential. Ask her if she has a problem with this and come back to me.


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

bovinerebel,
This is (almost) the first positive post I've read on any forum. I'm sure it will cause a stir of reaction. I'll be watching with interest ...


----------



## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

seeker said:


> bovinerebel,
> This is (almost) the first positive post I've read on any forum. I'm sure it will cause a stir of reaction. I'll be watching with interest ...



Amazing isn't it ? That as white South Africans , who enjoy such a high standard of living , we should be surprised to hear anything positive. South Africa is a great place to live and we all know it deep down. We know that if we are honest and have lived somewhere else , that we really enjoy a standard of living that is rare and fantastic. We're too bitter about the whole losing of power thing to admit it though. To admit to a happy life in South Africa is like to put a tick box in the approval ratings of the ANC and we're just not ready to do that. So we look for and celebrate any negative things we can. Do you recall how secretly thrilled all white south africans were during the eskom electricy "crisis" ? (the result of a hyper booming and growing economy). 



They may seem random , but so much of what is good about South Africa is hidden far away from the tourist brochures. I think as South Africans we live without so much of the modern western world angst. We're still a polite , social people who haven't sold our souls to the dog eat dog and narcicistc values of so much of the west. Our children still respect their elders , our women still appreciate and love their men and our men still take responsibility for their lives. It's a good environment where people still help each other out ...I bring this up because we hardly ever notice it, but so many of my foriegn friends report this as something they appreciate about our country.


----------



## Deepdiver47 (Jun 20, 2008)

*India fourth most attractive investment destination: Survey*

The survey conducted by Ernst and Young found the South Asian country being preferred after China, Central Europe and Western Europe in terms of prospects of alternative business locations and the criteria that drives the perceptions of respondents. 

While China received 47 per cent votes, Central Europe and Western Europe got 42 per cent and 33 per cent votes respectively, says the survey of 834 respondents across the world. 

With 30 per cent votes, India emerges ahead of the US and Russia, which receive 21 per cent votes each. 


About 21 per cent investors voted in favour of India as one of the top three innovative countries, ahead of UK, France, Finland and Sweden. The US with 50 per cent votes and China with 34 per cent votes stand out in investors minds as the most innovative countries. 

Around 22 per cent investors ranked India second as a preferred global location for relocating projects, following China that received 36 per cent votes. 

According to the survey, investors pay more attention to political and legal stability and telecom infrastructure than labour costs. 

For the survey, the respondents were interviewed by research organisation Institute CSA during February-March 2008. 

from India fourth most attractive investment destination: Survey- Indicators-Economy-News-The Economic Times

As a professional researcher at one of the most liberal institutions in the country I 'm pretty sure my wife has no trouble accepting any fact. At no time have, or would I, negate the obvious benefits of living in such a beautiful place, one that has blessed me with an existance equal to your description. 

But we do have issues. Big ones. We are losing Direct Foreign Investment on a daily basis to alternative destinations. The last and ongoing major issue is guaranteed power supply. These cannot simply be ignored.


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

bovinerebel said:


> Amazing isn't it ? That as white South Africans , who enjoy such a high standard of living , we should be surprised to hear anything positive.
> 
> Actually, I am American and started this post because I'm seriously considering moving to SA.


----------



## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

Deepdiver47 said:


> *India fourth most attractive investment destination: Survey*
> 
> The survey conducted by Ernst and Young found the South Asian country being preferred after China, Central Europe and Western Europe in terms of prospects of alternative business locations and the criteria that drives the perceptions of respondents.
> 
> ...


If you're wife is a researcher she'd appreciate the different between subjective and objective research and between quantitative and qualitiative data. 

Therein lies the problem. The above is based on perceptions...that's to say it;s subjective. There is no doubt that based on perceptions that South Africa
is not highly regarded , because most people have the strange idea that South Africa is some kind of big squatter campe , war zone where everyone is falling down and dying of aids. That's the picture you negative people spread , when in reality South Africa has fantastic infrastructure , wealth etc with the problems of aids and crime grossly distorted (by the way the ridiculous 1 in 5 people have aids etc is a joke based on testing done on pregnant mothers by an agency that benefits from exageratting the phenomena.....in reality it's closer to 1.6 % ...that's a different debate but I assure you I have all the stats and facts to back that up).

However if you objectively look at South Africa it's a highly attractive country for investment. Whether you , me or your wife like it or not , we are attracting a lot of foriegn investment anyway because money talks. Now imagine we could just start painting a more realisitc picture of south Africa. 

At the very least could be stop portraying our country as worse that the rest of africa , or just like it? how ridiculous ! Because quite frankly South Africa is a lot closer to europe than africa. If you have any interest in the future of South Africa then I'm not saying you have to be its cheerleader ....but don't get in the way either by being negative and irrational to make yourself feel better about having lost power. The way to stop crime in our country is to uplift the poor , and no better way that tourism and foregn investment and a little positive hard work.

This idea that we're going to improve what problems we have through moaning and crying to foriegners is something I want to distance myself from. Since when did we become a nation of hapless victims ? The way i remember the south african ethos is a "boer maak a plan" ....A boer makes a plan( He doesn't moan..he gets on with it and sorts it out). 

If you're not part of the future , just get out of the way.


----------



## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

seeker said:


> bovinerebel said:
> 
> 
> > Amazing isn't it ? That as white South Africans , who enjoy such a high standard of living , we should be surprised to hear anything positive.
> ...


----------



## BeautifulMystique (Mar 17, 2008)

Bovinerebel, you are very passionate about your country, aren't you? You speak with so much love for South Africa. It's the same with me, I'd definitely promote my country even though the political side of it is a bit twisted at the moment but it is a beautiful country and it is not short of visitors every year.

That said, anywhere in the world in some ways is corrupted. Policemen, politicians etc. As for crimes, it happens everywhere around the world. As my father put it so succinctly "you will die in the hands of a murderer if God wants it to be that way". It doesn't have to happen in South Africa - it can happen anywhere - even in the safest place in the world (wherever that is).

Like you, I am planning to start up a guest house and have been looking at several properties. It is one of the best investments as Cape Town - well, South Africa itself is booming with tourists and as you said, repeated tourists (I'm one of them!). I think not a lot of locals are doing their best to promote South Africa as a tourist destination. I'm excited about my investment in the near future because I am planning to introduce my country/culture to South Africans and in return, promote South Africa to my country and others around the world!


----------



## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

BeautifulMystique said:


> Bovinerebel, you are very passionate about your country, aren't you? You speak with so much love for South Africa. It's the same with me, I'd definitely promote my country even though the political side of it is a bit twisted at the moment but it is a beautiful country and it is not short of visitors every year.
> 
> That said, anywhere in the world in some ways is corrupted. Policemen, politicians etc. As for crimes, it happens everywhere around the world. As my father put it so succinctly "you will die in the hands of a murderer if God wants it to be that way". It doesn't have to happen in South Africa - it can happen anywhere - even in the safest place in the world (wherever that is).
> 
> Like you, I am planning to start up a guest house and have been looking at several properties. It is one of the best investments as Cape Town - well, South Africa itself is booming with tourists and as you said, repeated tourists (I'm one of them!). I think not a lot of locals are doing their best to promote South Africa as a tourist destination. I'm excited about my investment in the near future because I am planning to introduce my country/culture to South Africans and in return, promote South Africa to my country and others around the world!



Of course I love South Africa. It's such a quirky , complex mess of cultures and aspirations but it's MY quirky mess of cultures and aspirations. I fully commit and invest myself into it's fate and future. Its failing is my failing. A person is nothing without the context and people he surrounds himself in. It's not blind patriotism from my side. It's a reaction to what to me is clearly a misreprsentation of South Africa. You've been to South Africa so surely you can see it's hardly the war zone they make it out to be. 

As far as corruption is concerned , I don't like it , but to be really honest South African corruption is so small time compared to anywhere I've lived in Asia. It is africa after all...keep things relative. 

Where are you from ? I think you will find South Africans to be very curious and receptive to learning about foriegners and their cultures. As a foriegner in South Africa you're something of a celebrity due to our years of isolation.


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

bovinerebel said:


> seeker said:
> 
> 
> > I see. Please come. You'll we welcomed by a friendly and warm people. Stay away from joburg , because the exceptional wealth disparity there does attract a lot of crime (no more so that Rio though or any other similiar place for example).
> ...


----------



## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

seeker said:


> bovinerebel said:
> 
> 
> > seeker said:
> ...


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

Free State. Outbacky is exactly what we're looking for. It's been my husband's childhod dream to live in Africa - he's always wanted to be a game warden. Living so close to the private game reserve and being able to farm sheep to support ourselves seemed (before I read all these forums) a dream come true. Love Cape Town and the wine country as well, by the way. Even more gorgeous than the California coast where I grew up. And FABULOUS food!


----------



## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

seeker said:


> Free State. Outbacky is exactly what we're looking for. It's been my husband's childhod dream to live in Africa - he's always wanted to be a game warden. Living so close to the private game reserve and being able to farm sheep to support ourselves seemed (before I read all these forums) a dream come true. Love Cape Town and the wine country as well, by the way. Even more gorgeous than the California coast where I grew up. And FABULOUS food!



Yeah well that's a good life for a certain type of person. Please don't listen to these types of forums or comments on youtube videos etc. They really don't represent reality.

Take a look at this (my new) blog...it's a little offensive but makes the point about how stupid negative South Africans are. Just fighting fire with fire. 

(SNIP) - Sorry, no you are right its offensive

Ps : I'm a white South African. I just play a black man on the blog to bait people in and explose the real reasons for their negativity (racism).


----------



## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

bovinerebel said:


> Yeah well that's a good life for a certain type of person. Please don't listen to these types of forums or comments on youtube videos etc. They really don't represent reality.


What about news reports?
The forums are generally populated by people who have been there and had bad experiences, hence their points of view. Its is not a good idea just to dismiss their comments out of hand as you are.

People might think you were part of HCR


----------



## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> What about news reports?
> The forums are generally populated by people who have been there and had bad experiences, hence their points of view. Its is not a good idea just to dismiss their comments out of hand as you are.
> 
> People might think you were part of HCR


I admit they are full of people who have had bad experiences. But this gives the false idea that a large group of people have had bad experiences , when in fact it is a tiny minority. Clearly people who have not had bad experiences aren't motivated to come on such forums and spread hyperbole. I'm just pointing out the obvious for a balanced perspective. There are about 300 white murders ( and decreasing) every year in south Africa out of 5 million white people. 80% of those 300 murders are commited by a know aquantence , suggesting crimes of passion rather than pure money as a motive. That's relavent when you consider that these people on these forums propose that some form of genocide is taking place. Murder is also at it's lowest level in 14 years ....that's also worth pointing out. Don't pretend there are no problems ...but also don't make it out to be a war zone.


----------



## MichelleAlison (Aug 25, 2007)

bovinerebel said:


> I admit they are full of people who have had bad experiences. But this gives the false idea that a large group of people have had bad experiences , when in fact it is a tiny minority. Clearly people who have not had bad experiences aren't motivated to come on such forums and spread hyperbole. I'm just pointing out the obvious for a balanced perspective. There are about 300 white murders ( and decreasing) every year in south Africa out of 5 million white people. 80% of those 300 murders are commited by a know aquantence , suggesting crimes of passion rather than pure money as a motive. That's relavent when you consider that these people on these forums propose that some form of genocide is taking place. Murder is also at it's lowest level in 14 years ....that's also worth pointing out. Don't pretend there are no problems ...but also don't make it out to be a war zone.


If it is as safe as you say, why do people have 6ft fences around their properties with barbed wire on the top and even electrified fences? Why does everyone carry a gun, need security when they are entering and exiting their homes, unable to go out after dark. Not only have I read this, but I spoke to a South African couple here in Mar del Plata last year, who said the same. Surely there must be some truth in what people are saying?

Michelle


----------



## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

MichelleAlison said:


> If it is as safe as you say, why do people have 6ft fences around their properties with barbed wire on the top and even electrified fences? Why does everyone carry a gun, need security when they are entering and exiting their homes, unable to go out after dark. Not only have I read this, but I spoke to a South African couple here in Mar del Plata last year, who said the same. Surely there must be some truth in what people are saying?
> 
> Michelle


Everyone carries a gun ? Are you joking ? I can't think of one person who carries a gun !!! This statement already tells me a lot about the "quality" of information you've been recieving. Total nonsense.

Not go out after dark ? Who doesn't go out after dark ? I do almost every night and so do all my friends. 

It's true that we have fences and some have barbed wire etc. But that's erring on the side of caution. There's a lot of fearmongering going around and people want to be extra careful just to be safe. But for sure nobody really feels in any danger. 

Here's the truth in this. South Africa has extremely rich people and extremely poor people. The rich put up fences to keep the poor out. The crime that happens still happens 98% of the time amongst the people on the poor side of the fence. 

If the people who told you they worried about crime lived on the poor side of the fence then i'd say "Yes ...that's true! they have a lot of crime in their community"

...but if they live on the rich side , I'm forced to say " no , that's total nonsense. they have very little experience with crime".

Do you see the difference now ?


----------



## MichelleAlison (Aug 25, 2007)

bovinerebel said:


> Everyone carries a gun ? Are you joking ? I can't think of one person who carries a gun !!! This statement already tells me a lot about the "quality" of information you've been recieving. Total nonsense.
> 
> Not go out after dark ? Who doesn't go out after dark ? I do almost every night and so do all my friends.
> 
> ...



These people were wealthy white SA and lived in an exclusive area..........


----------



## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

MichelleAlison said:


> These people were worthy white SA and lived in an exclusive area..........


.....who liked to add a little "flavor" to a story to make it more interesting ? 


Yes, yes. I know the type.


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

I am sitting here gob smacked.
and the scary part of all is that he/it is so plausible.
scary because people will believe him, and then he will dissappear into the anonimity of the internet.
amazing.


----------



## MichelleAlison (Aug 25, 2007)

bovinerebel said:


> .....who liked to add a little "flavor" to a story to make it more interesting ?
> 
> 
> Yes, yes. I know the type.


So technically, what you are saying, is that everybody makes up stories, including the people that live there, the people that used to live there and of course the media and all the statistics.

Lets leave it at that then and let people make-up their own minds.


----------



## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

MichelleAlison said:


> So technically, what you are saying, is that everybody makes up stories, including the people that live there, the people that used to live there and of course the media and all the statistics.
> 
> Lets leave it at that then and let people make-up their own minds.


I'm giving those statistics context. What's so simple to grasp about this ? The statistics are valid , but they are being manipulated to imply that life for middle classes South Africans is much more dangerous than life for ...say example...middle classes americans. It's not. That's something you can determind through simple observation. Some families are more neurotic than others and maybe build up some imaginary danger in their mind fueled by scaremongers in the media, but most rational people just go about their business never worrying about crime. That's just how it is. This website gives the very distorted view that middle classed south africans are being gunned down daily in the streets. That's total rubbish.


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

No, not gunned down daily in the streets, but 40 home invasions a night happen in SA, be they in the Townships or in the suburbs, and it happens to all Colours and creeds.
The opposite to scaremongering is propaganda.
its very simple.
you believe that strongly, publish yourself.
dont hide behind bovine rebel or a hotmail or yahoo account.
you, kiddo, enjoy causing a fuss, being controversial,making a scene, but you cant back it up.
SA still does have press freedom, they do report honestly,all you can do is cast doubt by accusing anyone who disagrees with you of racism.
You are a child.you might be 23, but you are a child .


----------



## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

Daxk said:


> No, not gunned down daily in the streets, but 40 home invasions a night happen in SA, be they in the Townships or in the suburbs, and it happens to all Colours and creeds.
> The opposite to scaremongering is propaganda.
> its very simple.
> you believe that strongly, publish yourself.
> ...


South Africa has less home break ins that Australia. Fact.

Only 500 murders a year happen from home break ins , hijackings and business robberies. Fact. The gross majority of the rest of the murders are related to inter-personal dispitues/drunken knife fighting etc. If you're not hanging out at a township shabeen etc that immedietly means these figures reduce phenomally low. The perception that most murders are from break ins or house robberies etc is way off the mark.

ps : Scaremonger is propoganda. The most popular form.
pps : I can back it up. You're the one being controversial. Most south Africans would strongly dismiss the idea that our country is a cess pit.
pps : You might not be a racist. But you're surely bitter and emotive and not desxribing south africa with your gross exagerations.
ppps : I'm 31.


----------



## Deepdiver47 (Jun 20, 2008)

Threads such as this, and, WITHOUT A DOUBT, the comments the rebellious bovine adds, are important for adding perspective. I can only comment on what I know. In the last 18 months I have been broken into twice. Since I have been here I have been shot at twice, once as a passer by in a bank robbery. A couple of years ago my ops manager was killed in a hijack on the side of the N2 highway. 

I consider myself lucky to be here. It is without a doubt one of the most beautiful, diverse and opportunity filled places I have ever experienced. I wake up every day to a vista that takes my breath away with its beauty. 

In one of my posts earlier, when I joined this site, I made it clear that I did not want to join the 'doom and gloom' merchants, and hope that I am not percieved so. All I want to do is give unbiased and honest information about the reality of a situation. 

I came here at the end of the apatheid era from the West Indies. It was a hard time for a white male, I had none of the baggage that a lot of the white minority had and coming from the place I did I found it hard to fit in - most of my close friends had been black, obviously, and it was not really the 'done thing' then. The country _has_ grown in leaps and bounds. We can cry about the pathetic efforts made to educate the population but this has to take into context - we now try to educate everyone, not just the minority. The roads are not in great repair, but we are trying to provide a road network for the whole country, not just highways and tarmac in the 'burbs' for the mercs and bmws. 

All I try to achieve here is the passing on of quality, unbiased and factually based information for those who want to live here. 

I was asked recently whether I would live in Joburg again. The answer is a flat no, but if I was a single person i would jump at the chance. It is a vibrant centre of multiculturalism where every dream can be achieved. It has a 'frontier town' feel, where opportunity is balanced by risk, and that is exciting. My fear is not for me but my wife and children. It would be selfish to puts them in harms way for my own gain.

I know nothing of the Eastern Cape, as I have not had the opportunity to live there. Cape Town is Gods own, and as I say, I feel blessed to live here. BUT thirteen years as a serving police officer outside South Africa and my personal experiences here make me worry about the security, and the economy and politics are on a knife edge. 

Nothing would make me happier than to see this country grow into the place it deserves to become. Unfortunately the batteries are flat in my crystal ball..


----------



## Deepdiver47 (Jun 20, 2008)

*AND*

who else reads Home - South Africa - The Good News ?


----------



## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

Deepdiver47 said:


> Threads such as this, and, WITHOUT A DOUBT, the comments the rebellious bovine adds, are important for adding perspective. I can only comment on what I know. In the last 18 months I have been broken into twice. Since I have been here I have been shot at twice, once as a passer by in a bank robbery. A couple of years ago my ops manager was killed in a hijack on the side of the N2 highway.
> 
> I consider myself lucky to be here. It is without a doubt one of the most beautiful, diverse and opportunity filled places I have ever experienced. I wake up every day to a vista that takes my breath away with its beauty.
> 
> ...



Certainly as an expat I respect your opinion. South Africa has some problems , but its wrong to paint the place as unlivable or that to live here requires you to be stupid or careless. The chances are extremely remote of anything happening to you and that's not a matter of opinion...that's a pure statistical fact. Yes you hear some horror stories around Johanessburg , but honestly one city can and does not represent our country. Even with that said I don't fully buy the idea that even Joburg is as bad as its made out. I've spend a lot of time around there and it's a great vibrant city in its own right where I never felt in danger. In the highest risk group you stand a 40 in 100 000 thousand chance of being killed. In the lowest risk group it's much lower. To give some perspective Washington Dc is 33 in 100 000. 

There is nothing unique about South Africa's crime. It's slighly inflated beyond the norm , but that's to be expected in a country of such wealth disparity. What's unique about south africa is we are the only country whose media is interested in always airing only our dirty laundry. It's not that South Africans actively try and lie about the crime , you must understand that the media perpetuates the idea in their heads too with tons of baseless paranoid and sensationalistic reporting of crime using too many adjectives and too little facts. This needs checking and there are a whole movement of South Africans like myself who are starting to do just that ....we're saying "Wait a minute now....hey ! It's not THAT bad Come on now...!!! "


----------



## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

By the way to answer the forum : It's pefectly safe to invest in South African land. We have a stable economy , political structure and constitution that protects you. Nothing drastic will change for the rich in South Africa as long as the rich black minority is in power. And whoever comes to power quickly finds themselves in the rich black minority. There's also a real solid will by the black majorty to not scr#w up the country and prove the racists right.


----------



## Deepdiver47 (Jun 20, 2008)

I think that the greatest fear of all of us is that the racists are proven right. I need one castle for every time I hear 'but what about Zimbabwe?' The issue is that it provides historical context. 

What we need to do is keep working towards being the difference.

In addition to my first, can I have another castle for every time I have heard 'but the west wont allow South Africa to become another Zimbabwe'? Between the two I think that my beer supply sorted . .


----------



## Unseer (Jul 8, 2008)

I think there's always a chance SA will become another Zim, but we've got this wonderful economy that continues to grow and ultimately the folk who run the country aren't all the tribal fanatics that have destroyed so much of Africa to date.
Look at Rwanda, look at Angola, look at Botswana - things are stable and these countries are successful to varying degrees. Botswana & Rwanda did an amazingly simple thing: they got rid of tribal tensions. Try to tell a Rwandan that they belong to one or another tribe and they'll tell you they're Rwandan. Botswana just got rid of the conflict, took the business that left SA and now have a currency stronger than the Rand. I spent some time in Rwanda in 2000 and although the infrastructure is far behind SA you could still see the slow methodical growth there.

SA is run by the economy. Everyone in the country including those in the Government want to be rich and during the first few years after Apartheid that resulted in some pretty corrupt stuff BUT it was all resulted in one thing: bloody good business.

Now that we're pulling back from the over correction things are looking as good as they ever have. More millionaires, loads of new cars, taxi's that aren't held together with bloudraad and a society that's far more classist than racist. Unfortunately we're still haemorrhaging skilled folk and some of those have left because they've been directly effected by crime. I can tell you that the UK and Oz are filled with more than just South Africans, many folk come from all over the world to live in these places seeking stability & security.

Common sense would drive you to invest where you're likely to make the most money with the least risk. My initial investments are UK based but subsequent investments, with slightly higher risk, will be in South Africa. The investments I have in the UK will feed back into SA to allow my family to experience a great quality of life. You always want to spread your bets.

The 2010 world cup is driving huge amounts of progress and although I believe we'll only hit 90% of the targets, it'll be enough to improve the economic foundation in SA as a springboard for continued & improved growth from here on. Businesses in SA are hugely successful, I know a few folk who run their own services business and they’re Rand millionaires at the age of 30 with no sign of slowing down.


----------



## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

Unseer said:


> I think there's always a chance SA will become another Zim, but we've got this wonderful economy that continues to grow and ultimately the folk who run the country aren't all the tribal fanatics that have destroyed so much of Africa to date.
> Look at Rwanda, look at Angola, look at Botswana - things are stable and these countries are successful to varying degrees. Botswana & Rwanda did an amazingly simple thing: they got rid of tribal tensions. Try to tell a Rwandan that they belong to one or another tribe and they'll tell you they're Rwandan. Botswana just got rid of the conflict, took the business that left SA and now have a currency stronger than the Rand. I spent some time in Rwanda in 2000 and although the infrastructure is far behind SA you could still see the slow methodical growth there.
> 
> SA is run by the economy. Everyone in the country including those in the Government want to be rich and during the first few years after Apartheid that resulted in some pretty corrupt stuff BUT it was all resulted in one thing: bloody good business.
> ...



I like your "spiel". And of course you're right on the button. 2010 will finally give us the chance to show people how cool , modern , beautiful , safe and friendly south africa is. We can wipe away this slate of negativity some people insist on vomitting all over the country. I don't care how much ridiculous exegeratted , paranoid scaremongering nonsense the media tells the people , when a mass of foriegners come here it's going to cause a feedback loop of positivity back into the South Africans public and drown out the negative voices. The second people can stop fixating on the few manageable problems we have is the moment we can move forward.

I'm picturing madiba walk out aided at the opening cermony (if he makes it) and starting that South African magic once again. Say what you like about our country but we have the potential to inspire. We've got all the problems in the world , but there's a deep humanity that oozes out of it all. It took me 7 years as an expat to look inward at my country and appreciate it for that.


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

"Among other things the Bill contains the following provisions:
• That compensation for expropriated property is determined by executive diktat rather than market value;
• That security of ownership no longer vests with the owner as the state has the right to expropriate any land (or property of any description) that it deems to be 'in the public interest' to take;
• That large-scale farms can be taken – on terms determined by the Minister of Land Affairs – and then sub-divided and handed back to the people who have a legitimate claim to it. 

Can you see any similarities between this Expropriation Bill and the land reforms implemented in Zimbabwe, or is it just me?"

Property24.com :: Full Article

Why get this Bill passed if it has to go to the Constitutional Court
Because it has 50/5 chance of being accepted by the Consitutional Court.

Any Case in front of the Con Court has a 50/5 chance.
but Hey, its a Media Conspiacy, right?


----------



## bovinerebel (Jul 8, 2008)

Daxk said:


> "Among other things the Bill contains the following provisions:
> • That compensation for expropriated property is determined by executive diktat rather than market value;
> • That security of ownership no longer vests with the owner as the state has the right to expropriate any land (or property of any description) that it deems to be 'in the public interest' to take;
> • That large-scale farms can be taken – on terms determined by the Minister of Land Affairs – and then sub-divided and handed back to the people who have a legitimate claim to it.
> ...


Name 1 person. 1 single person who has been forced off his land in south africa without fair compensation. You can't , but you going to come on here and pretend it's a real risk ? 

That's all subjective paranoid speculation. Which is fine and all , but please don't present it as if it's a valid cause for concern.


----------



## Deepdiver47 (Jun 20, 2008)

Bovinerebel, 

I believe you summed it up correctly in your last statement when you use the phrase 'cause for concern'. I am not sufficiently conversant with the matter to provide any proof that it has happened, but the fact is that it does provide cause for concern amongst some people. The fact that they do not adhere to your views with regard to the potential of our country doesnt simply make them go away, and the more that can be done to allay their fears the closer we get to real progress. A fair and equitable method for redistribution is essential for our country to move forward. I cannot at present say that the Expropriation Act will achieve this, I have kept up with the failure of the 'willing seller willing buyer' programme and it does seem hampered by bureaucracy, with agreements reached but unratified by regional governments some eighteen months later. It does seem a 'sledgehammer to break a nut' policy. 

You are without a doubt part of the countries future. Your passion and, I hope, true belief is what is needed in the trying times ahead. More than anything else I hope that there will not be a gaggle of 'whenwe's' given the opportunity to say 'I told you so' . .


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

bovinerebel said:


> Name 1 person. 1 single person who has been forced off his land in south africa without fair compensation. You can't , but you going to come on here and pretend it's a real risk ?
> 
> That's all subjective paranoid speculation. Which is fine and all , but please don't present it as if it's a valid cause for concern.



Yet! they did'nt have the bill then.


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

30% of Land has to be in Black ownership by 2014. Currently 6.8% is 
Google it.
Thats why they need the bill.


----------



## Deepdiver47 (Jun 20, 2008)

I know this is going to sound naive but if the land gets fairly redistributed and the PDI (new) owner decides to sell to a non PDI entity, what does that do to the ownership ratio?


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Cant do it, can only sell to another Previously Disadvantaged.and only after 5 years.


----------



## mmm (Jun 18, 2008)

seeker have you made your mind up yet is it the heart or the head


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Seeker, It is a beautiful Country,if it really is your dream, rent for a whie to make sure it is for you.
maybe it is, maybe there is a second miracle,what rang bells for me was your comment that the friends you had made over a few visits, that you were going into partnership with, were well connected politically.
Go out there, rent for awhile, purchase based on conditions being met, and dont part with money.
No SA argues with money in a trust account in Jersey,the Bahamas or Lichtenstein,


----------



## mmm (Jun 18, 2008)

Daxk said:


> Seeker, It is a beautiful Country,if it really is your dream, rent for a whie to make sure it is for you.
> maybe it is, maybe there is a second miracle,what rang bells for me was your comment that the friends you had made over a few visits, that you were going into partnership with, were well connected politically.
> Go out there, rent for awhile, purchase based on conditions being met, and dont part with money.
> No SA argues with money in a trust account in Jersey,the Bahamas or Lichtenstein,


thats a lovely way to do it i was begining to think Daxk was trying to put you off living your husbands dream but now I think Daxk is only trying to keep you aware of your options


----------



## Deepdiver47 (Jun 20, 2008)

I think in all honesty most contributors here are simply trying to make readers aware of the options. Lifes too short for rhetoric of propaganda. 

At the end a reader needs to read it all and hopefully take cognisance of it all, it gives the highs and the lows, but also leaves very little out. No - one can come here after reading this and say they were never made acutely aware of crime, land issues etc but equally they are well versed in how spectacular it is, both physically and culturally. I think its quite balanced, in a roller coaster kind of way!


----------



## DCExpat39 (Jul 11, 2008)

No! With the new land appropriations bill, the South African government can now seize any land they want to without compensation. The communist element within the ANC is growing stronger every day, and if they are able to seize control of the party, they will start nationalizing land and businesses like crazy. Also, as a farmer in South Africa, you have the greatest chance of being murdered of any occupation in the world. I am an American who has been living here for over a year, and I can tell you first-hand that South Africa is a dangerous nightmare. We cannot wait until my fiance's contract is up so that we can get out of this hell-hole before something bad happens.


----------



## MichelleAlison (Aug 25, 2007)

DCExpat39 said:


> No! With the new land appropriations bill, the South African government can now seize any land they want to without compensation. The communist element within the ANC is growing stronger every day, and if they are able to seize control of the party, they will start nationalizing land and businesses like crazy. Also, as a farmer in South Africa, you have the greatest chance of being murdered of any occupation in the world. I am an American who has been living here for over a year, and I can tell you first-hand that South Africa is a dangerous nightmare. We cannot wait until my fiance's contract is up so that we can get out of this hell-hole before something bad happens.


Hi and welcome to the forum.

It's nice to get an opinion from someone actually living in SA and who can see and feel the crime first-hand.

This link clarifies exactly what you said about the farmers.
Farm Attacks in South Africa

Regards

Michelle


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

mmm said:


> seeker have you made your mind up yet is it the heart or the head



No. I have not entirely made my mind up. But I have certainly become more educated! What we have done is taken our house off the market (for numerous reasons) and are stepping back to take another look. We must go at some point as we have money invested ina SA money market and need to open a checking account to access it, and the dream hasn't changed. Just, possibly, the process.


----------



## mmm (Jun 18, 2008)

seeker its always good to look over your options and sort out the process before going for your dream


----------



## Chantal (Jul 20, 2008)

Please understand that the following is just an opinion:
NO!
economy is crap and getting worse
farm would probably have a land claim on it - if not then best you check that it was not previously registered in any other name and that there is no land claim on that name.
South Africa DOES NOT PROTECT THE WHITE FARM OWNER AT ALL and i stress AT ALL!!!!. I don't care what people say - I know, i'm posting from my parent's farm right now.
Check the water supply, we can suffer serious droughts.
Working with the native farm labourers can be exhausting and nothing like you have ever experienced when they are drunk. Moving to Johannesburg is bad enough why would you want to put yourself on a farm where you would very clearly need a gun - not that you don't need one in Johannesburg. My father has been trying to get his gun license renewed, get this, he is a citizen from birth and he still has not been given his license going on 2 years now and he has connections. I think you would be making a huge mistake. Don't get me wrong, I love farm life, i just wouldn't live on it let alone purchase one.


----------



## Deepdiver47 (Jun 20, 2008)

Well this is a turn up . . My business partner left for the UK last year to set up our 'empire' there. Happily living in the scenic Cotswolds. 

After a year they've had enough. They are coming back next month. They say there is nowhere that rivals Cape Town and knowing what they know they are going to come back and enjoy the good times. He is an astute business man, he has young children, as do I, and is well aware of the risks and benefits. 

I honestly never thought after the massive trauma of last years move (greatly motivated by the crime threat, although they have not personally been subject) they would come back, but hey, makes you think, doesnt it?


----------



## Chantal (Jul 20, 2008)

As you said 'They KNOW and they are AWARE ' is the one key. It's infact the only key. Once you have those 2 then living in S.A. is great. Living in Cape Town however is completely different to investing in a farm somewhere else in S.A., where you are at the mercy of an extremely corrupt government.


----------



## Deepdiver47 (Jun 20, 2008)

Chantal, I know what you're saying, but honestly, I dont think the government is any more corrupt than any other - I think the fact that we hear so much about it is testament to its transparency - but the farm thing is still an issue. My business partner and I are looking at buying a small holding on the outskirts of the winelands for weekends and we are probably the EXACT thing the government hates! We have found a reasonably safe area but have put the whole thing on hold because of the expropriation bill. 

My point was just to show that there are those, with good understanding of both Worlds, who _do_ chose to live in South Africa.

I must admit, though, if I was to consider farming on a commerical scale I would seriously consider the comments about five pages back and opt for South America. I hear Argentina is spectacular . .


----------



## Chantal (Jul 20, 2008)

You have chosen a safe area with beautiful surroundings - but then you don't need me to tell you that. So it sounds like this is going to be a weekend get away for you? I do the same every weekend, go to my mother's farm. It does me the world of good. Just look extra carefully into the land claims scenario and all will be fine. All of the best.


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks to all for your posts. Unfortunately, our SA situation has fallen apart due to our SA friends not being quite as true as they presented to be. All things considered I am relieved. However, we may still want to move to SA in the future - my husband's dream has not changed. I'll be watching to see how things develop there over the next year.


----------



## MichelleAlison (Aug 25, 2007)

seeker said:


> Thanks to all for your posts. Unfortunately, our SA situation has fallen apart due to our SA friends not being quite as true as they presented to be. All things considered I am relieved. However, we may still want to move to SA in the future - my husband's dream has not changed. I'll be watching to see how things develop there over the next year.


It just goes to show that you can't trust anybody today. At least you were lucky and found out the truth before committing yourselves.

I hope you find what you want, but do be careful.

Regards

Michelle


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Hey Seeker,sorry to hear and relieved you did'nt lose anything.


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks. Actually, we lost quite a lot. Sold all our livestock (400 sheep), our dogs, our farm equipment, most of our posessions. Get frustrated when I want to cook dinner and no longer have mixer, Cuisinart, steamer, bowls, etc. Thousands of dollars invested in immigration process. Books, art, clothes, things we bought in Africa - thought we'd be getting more. Heading in to Virginia winter without our chain saws or our custom built log splitter. Fortunately we still have our home, most of our funriture, and our jobs. Silver linings are that we finished our house, got rid of a lot we didn't need (there's something to be said for the spartan decor look) and learned what we learned before we lost everything. My husband is a pretty good judge of character and didn't commit to this lightheartedly. Needless to say, the letdown is devastating. Now we need to find a way to get the things he took over (his most valued posessions) back home safely. Most importantly perhaps is the example we set for our kids (21 and 22). They told us we inspired them - that I was willing to give up everything for his dream and he was willing to give up his dream for me. He could probably make a go of it over there without me, but the SA mindset towards women and this particular individual's lack of integrity would make life miserable for me so, for him, not an option. I count my blessings every morning when the birdsongs start that I have the family and home that I have.


----------



## Deepdiver47 (Jun 20, 2008)

Hey Seeker. 

Really sorry to hear your story - but SA mindset towards women?!?!!? My wife would scream if she heard you say that! As someone who has lived all over the World I think that the new SA is a great place to be a woman, they are respected and treated like equals, and that doesnt happen everywhere. My current best friends include a rector of a university and the head of human resource for one of the countries largest insurance companies - both women. 

Not wishing to negate your predicament or despair, just couldnt let that go . .


----------



## Deepdiver47 (Jun 20, 2008)

Where is your stuff?


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

Perhaps it is only this individual's attitude towards women. Or maybe the Afrikaans attitude? We got the impression it was cultural. It was made clear that all partnerships were to be between the men and not to officially include me. And that the men would decide what I could do professionally. Not going to wash with me, as I've been an executive director for the past 10 years. Our things are on the game reserve with the family in Vredefort.


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Seeker, I would echo what deepdiver said about respect for women, ESPECIALLY from the Afrikaner Community.
You have Foereign Currency, may I recommend that you still go out to SA, but take your time on who and what you invest in.
If it is sheep that drives your fancy,look closer to the Cape (Karoo)with all the proviso's on land Restitution previously mentioned here.

There is money to be made in SA ,there are opportunities and Honest people, 
but you need to be on the ground and able to ask questions and be aware of the local "Knowlege" if I may call it that.

The other alternative is Namibia ,SWAPO run a tight ship sofar, and have'nt made a lot of the mistakes other Post Revolution Countries have.


And no, this is not an about face, the situation you were heading into rang large alarm bells for me and I did'nt think you were being given the whole picture.
I have no axe to grind, do some research into Namibia,Tanzania and even Kenya,there recent troubles may just have been a "tribal correction"


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks Daxk. As I said, we aren't abandoning the dream, just sitting back to take stock and do some more research.


----------



## Deepdiver47 (Jun 20, 2008)

Hey Seeker. Sorry, Vredefort is a bit too far away from Cape Town for me to be of much help! and I'm with Daxk, women are treated well here. I'm sorry you got a bad apple, honestly, South Africans, and even us expats, are better than that!

Good luck for the future.


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

Really glad to hear it. The attitude about women and the racial prejudices of this family - to blacks and gays - set off alarm bells for me. My daughter grew up studying theater and many of her friends are gay to one degree or another. She had a hard time biting her toungue while listening to how they should all be lined up and shot shot.

Some day we'll make it back - to visit if not to live. I loved Capetown and Franchuck (?), not so much Parys. I'll check out the areas Daxk suggested. Despit all, its a gorgeous country.


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

If thats why you pulled out, seeker, then you would'nt have lasted.


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

If what's why I pulled out? Because of their attitude towards women, gays and blacks? Those are rather huge when assessing quality of life, but that is not why we pulled out. We pulled out because promises made were broken and the situation we were originally going into became something very different. I just meant that in the long run it would be difficult to form a true bond and lifetime partnership with people who have such different fundamental philosophies and I know better to think that I can judge or change anyone.


----------



## mmm (Jun 18, 2008)

seeker sorry to hear the news i hope you have something else on the horizion soon


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

Thank you. As Dorothy said, there's no place like home ...


----------



## mmm (Jun 18, 2008)

seeker said:


> Thank you. As Dorothy said, there's no place like home ...


good see you still have a sense of humour, things happen for a reason


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

No hope without a sense of humor! And I have no doubt things happen for a reason, although I can't imagine what that might be.


----------



## mmm (Jun 18, 2008)

a whole new adventure


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

aaaah ok, seeker,your visits have'nt inured you to the direct leg pulling SA's love to do.
What I meant was apart from the crime rate, the land expropriation bill, the ineptitude of most Government Departments, that your about to be partner was licking his lips at the windfall heading his way, you might have been swayed by a homophobic racist who probably panelbeats his wife after a few brandies.


----------



## mmm (Jun 18, 2008)

Daxk said:


> a homophobic racist who probably panelbeats his wife after a few brandies.


lol thats the funnest thing this year, sorry sick and twisted sense of humour


----------



## seeker (Jun 5, 2008)

Touche! I guess I haven't gotten the true sense of SA humor as almost all our time there was spent with this family, who you very well may have nailed with your description. Glad to hear not everyone there is a homophobic wife-beating racist!


----------

