# House Prices



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Info about house prices
News from Spain: Ageing population could cause cheaper housing in Spain


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Info about house prices
> News from Spain: Ageing population could cause cheaper housing in Spain


I love these articles. They're so simplistic that they're almost worthy of certain tabloids. So, the house just up the road from us, with a massive plot, garages, major pool, pool houses (plural), outside showers, tennis court, views to die for etc., etc., will be on the market for about €200K and the flats in Riazor beach will be selling at the price of a small car. YES, I'll have 3 please!!

I really don't see the point of these articles. Some projects will be trashed. Villages will be reclaimed by nature. Older houses will not be refurbished. But the coastal cream property is already seeing price rises. I fear the article is feeding the line of recent tosh being released all over the press. Flats will come down. In general, "adosadas" will no doubt drop some also. But the villa on the 1000 or more sq mtr in the area known as litoral... of anywhere? - no. I've got a cousing looking to sell up the mountain and move closer to the coast. He's been looking for over two years. It ain't happening folks!!

So, house prices won't fall by 50% and people in spain don't on average earn €2,500 per month. Two stats we can simply ignore and if we really want the truth, we have to go into a little bit more detail.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Yes, I did wonder if anyone could shed some light on the whys and wherefores of this article...
BTW xose, it says that house prices in Spain will fall by 75%, not 50%!!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

.....By 2050 or something??? I doubt if many of us here will care by then anyway! But yes, its too simplistic, it doesnt take into account any other permutations like wages, travel, technology changes, resources, human trends, wars, natural disasters, Armageddon........... I suspect its just a computer programme thats been programmed with the most basic of information and asked to predict the future

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Xose said:


> I love these articles. They're so simplistic that they're almost worthy of certain tabloids.


People should never take any notice of predictions by bankers or economists. They couldn't even predict the recent global crisis! Why should we ever believe them again?


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

From the article ....
The Bank for International Settlements explained that it can not calculate the real price of properties around the world but only the effects of the demographic impact on prices. However, the study also demonstrates that between 1970 and 2009 house prices rose by around 300% in Spain during a demographically neutral period.
..............................

So in essence they ain't got a bleeding clue ?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> People should never take any notice of predictions by bankers or economists. They couldn't even predict the recent global crisis! Why should we ever believe them again?


Ah......but John Gray did - that is, John Gray the political philosopher and author of 'Straw Dogs ', 'False Dawn - the Delusions of Global Capitalism' and other seminal works. (Not to be confused with the John Gray who wrote that silly 'Men are from Mars, Women from Venus' book). Other economists -Will Hutton in the UK and Hyman Minsky in the U.S. to name but two -did so too.
And you don't really need to be a genius to have predicted that crisis. After all, boom and bust is endemic in capitalist economies and has been for the past five hundred years as a reading of any history of economics shows. That's why Gordon Brown displayed enormous hubris when he proclaimed the end of the boom and bust cycle. His achievement was to preside over the longest period of sustained 'boom' since the Industrial Revolution.
The booms and busts come in a variety of forms, depending on the current technologies driving the economy.
Piracy on the high seas, colonial expansion, wars, the South Sea Bubble, the great railway boom of the mid to late Victorian period, successive house price booms, the dot.com bubble, the construction bubble in the ROI, China and Spain...the list is endless as are the slumps which followed. 
Why we are so surprised when the good times cease to roll baffles me.
Do we learn nothing from history


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

playamonte said:


> From the article ....
> The Bank for International Settlements explained that it can not calculate the real price of properties around the world but only the effects of the demographic impact on prices. However, the study also demonstrates that between 1970 and 2009 house prices rose by around 300% in Spain during a demographically neutral period.
> ..............................
> 
> So in essence they ain't got a bleeding clue ?


Of course not. And why should they? Economics is not a science, whatever some might claim. How can it be when it is based on so many human habits and foibles?
True, you can look back and detect patterns, as I said in my previous posts.
But to predict with exactitude....might as well consult the tarot cards, a soothsayer or a piece of seaweed.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> Of course not. And why should they? Economics is not a science, whatever some might claim. How can it be when it is based on so many human habits and foibles?
> True, you can look back and detect patterns, as I said in my previous posts.
> But to predict with exactitude....might as well consult the tarot cards, a soothsayer or a piece of seaweed.



.......... nah, seaweed doesnt work LOL

Jo xxx


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> Ah......but John Gray did - that is, John Gray the political philosopher and author of 'Straw Dogs ', 'False Dawn - the Delusions of Global Capitalism' and other seminal works. (Not to be confused with the John Gray who wrote that silly 'Men are from Mars, Women from Venus' book). Other economists -Will Hutton in the UK and Hyman Minsky in the U.S. to name but two -did so too.
> And you don't really need to be a genius to have predicted that crisis. After all, boom and bust is endemic in capitalist economies and has been for the past five hundred years as a reading of any history of economics shows. That's why Gordon Brown displayed enormous hubris when he proclaimed the end of the boom and bust cycle. His achievement was to preside over the longest period of sustained 'boom' since the Industrial Revolution.
> The booms and busts come in a variety of forms, depending on the current technologies driving the economy.
> Piracy on the high seas, colonial expansion, wars, the South Sea Bubble, the great railway boom of the mid to late Victorian period, successive house price booms, the dot.com bubble, the construction bubble in the ROI, China and Spain...the list is endless as are the slumps which followed.
> ...


One thing I have learnt is that if you read enough articles and enough predictions, some will be right and some will be wrong and a lot will be somewhere between the two.

As for this article - 80% drop. 80% of what?

If house prices rose 300%-400% in the last 40 years, does that mean that the fall by 2050 will see rises of only 24% to 32% - so 80% less - or does it mean a house today of €300K will be worth €24K. The latter is highly unlikely, but without knowing what they're data interpretation is, we are left with, well, nothing actually.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Xose said:


> One thing I have learnt is that if you read enough articles and enough predictions, some will be right and some will be wrong and a lot will be somewhere between the two.
> 
> As for this article - 80% drop. 80% of what?
> 
> If house prices rose 300%-400% in the last 40 years, does that mean that the fall by 2050 will see rises of only 24% to 32% - so 80% less - or does it mean a house today of €300K will be worth €24K. The latter is highly unlikely, but without knowing what they're data interpretation is, we are left with, well, nothing actually.


In forty years time will Spain still be using the euro anyway????

Jo xxx


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

jojo said:


> In forty years time will Spain still be using the euro anyway????
> 
> Jo xxx


Indeed Jo, will anyone?

Might even see the Northern and Souther Euro - but I doubt it.

Also 40 years is a long time and this lot haven't taken Spain's position in renewable energy into account. It will be back


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Xose said:


> Indeed Jo, will anyone?
> 
> Might even see the Northern and Souther Euro - but I doubt it.
> 
> Also 40 years is a long time and this lot haven't taken Spain's position in renewable energy into account. It will be back



Quite!! Actually, if you consider that 40 years ago, Spain was still ruled by Franco...... who knows anything?????????????


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Come to think of it, bankers did foresee the crisis. Why else were -and still are -hedge funds so popular?
What about the case of Goldman Sacxhs, now in deep doo-doo in the U.S. for hedging against the financial products it was selling?
Don't worry about the euro...there is no solid evidence to point to it disappearing soon. It is overvalued though.


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

It will be interesting to see what Banks & Building Societies will make of this information. Will they want to lend, ever again.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> Come to think of it, bankers did foresee the crisis. Why else were -and still are -hedge funds so popular?
> What about the case of Goldman Sacxhs, now in deep doo-doo in the U.S. for hedging against the financial products it was selling?
> Don't worry about the euro...there is no solid evidence to point to it disappearing soon. It is overvalued though.


............. maybe not "soon" but this article was talking about 40 years from now!!!

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> ............. maybe not "soon" but this article was talking about 40 years from now!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Which makes it all a load of bollocks!!!! Like I said, the tarot cards might be better predictors.
I hope whoever wrote that piece didn't get paid a shedload of money for doing so.
The only people who didn't foresee the crisis were the small investors.....like the people who put down money on off-plan schemes here in Spain and elsewhere.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

JBODEN said:


> It will be interesting to see what Banks & Building Societies will make of this information. Will they want to lend, ever again.



Duh....of course they will, Jerzy. Otherwise they'd have no reason for being in business....
And they are lending now.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Xose said:


> Also 40 years is a long time and this lot haven't taken Spain's position in renewable energy into account. It will be back


Indeed. People who talk down Spain's economy obviously are unaware that it is one of the EU -and the world's - strongest economies, ranked number 9 in 2009.
Number 4 in the EU, I believe.
Spain's problem is its current low growth rate..


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

& according to the news , this morning , mortgage lending has risen drammatically.


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Duh....of course they will, Jerzy. Otherwise they'd have no reason for being in business....
> And they are lending now.



Put another way, if 200,000 will be worth 50,000 in 40 years time D) the question is ''is it worth me taking out a 40yr loan''. At the end of 40 years I would have repaid 400,000 (at 5% int. pa.) but my property will only be worth 50,000. Duh!


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## crc (Jul 4, 2010)

I don't trust that article, purely because I think it's only looking at the population going down and not looking at a bit of DTM which people are unsure about as nowhere has got to it yet and there could be a baby boom, it is also looking way to far into the future.


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Duh....of course they will, Jerzy. Otherwise they'd have no reason for being in business....
> And they are lending now.


Assume:
A 200,000 mortage over 40 years at an average 5% pa interest rate repayable in equal monthly instalements.

After approx. 35 years the outstanding loan would still be 50,000 (equal to the projected value of the property).

After 35 yrs I would have repaid approx. 407,000 (P+I).

At the end of 40 years I would have repaid approx. 460,000 (P+I) but my property will only be worth 50,000. Duh!

[From a 2006 article:
According to UK government figures released April 23, five million new homes will be needed in Britain over the next 20 years with 1.5 million required because of record levels of immigration.

The new figures released by John Prescott, the Deputy Prime Minister, made no mention of immigration, but officials conceded that it formed 31% of the new household growth.

The figures make a higher prediction about the rate of housing needed for immigration than previously thought. Earlier the number was estimated to be 128,000 immigrants needing housing, but that figure has now been estimated to be 138,000.

The total number of households in the UK is forecast to increase by 20%, from 20.9 million in 2003 to 25.7 million by 2026, according to the latest projections published by John Prescott.
...
There would not be an increase to housing needed if it were not for immigration. We have an ageing population, and the majority of our population growth is due to the influx of migrants, said the chairman of the think tank.]


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Most of the immigrants will of course be from the EU, mainly from the former Soviet bloc countries. You can thank Mrs Thatcher and her signing of the Single European Act for that. And the fact is that because of our ageing population we need them in order to generate TAX revenue for pensions and other such social services as the NHS. It's the same scenario for most western countries.
There is also the problem of skill shortages. Employers are not happy with the Coalition's current cap on immigration as the very people our economy needs will be unable to work in the UK.
Governments of both parties have neglected to build our skills base with the result that we have one of the most under-skilled workforces in Europe. Far too many of our university graduates are poor in quality compared to those from the U.S.,Asia and other European countries. Just look at the overall profile of the posts we get here from would-be immigrants: the majority unskilled, semi-skilled and far too many unable to write grammatical English even. When we were in business we had great difficulty in finding technicians with the qualifications required although we were willing to pay well over the going rate. 
A modern vibrant economy requires highly-skilled well-educated people and we're not providing them.
As for retail banks and buiding societies: their whole raison-d'etre is to accept deposits from savers at a low rate of interest and lend it to borrowers at a higher rate of interest. 
The activities of the investment arms of these banks are a different matter altogether.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

From today's 'Observer'....


_*Employers' groups are calling on the government to rethink its immigration cap as figures today reveal that almost one in 10 private sector companies plan to relocate jobs abroad in the next year.

Companies are looking to export call-centre, IT and finance jobs, according to a study by the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development (CIPD) and the accounting giant KPMG. Two-thirds of those putting work offshore intend to take jobs to India, a third to China and three out of 10 to eastern Europe. The CIPD warns that more jobs are being sent offshore, and that an immigration cap, imposed too quickly, could have a "devastating" impact on the economy.

Today's research suggests that fears of a dramatic decline in the skills of British graduates and school-leavers are driving employers to look abroad.

Of those questioned, 42% felt the literacy skills of British graduates had fallen over the past five years, compared with just 6% who said they had improved. For numeracy the corresponding figures were 35% and 5%, and for communication and interpersonal skills 34% and 19%. There was a similar pattern when it came to British school-leavers.

Many firms are also looking to recruit from abroad, with one in six saying they will bring in migrant workers in the third quarter of this year.

Gerwyn Davies, public policy adviser at CIPD and author of the report, said the government faced a "complex juggling act". "The proposed introduction of a migration cap comes at a time when many employers are still struggling to fill skilled vacancies despite the high unemployment rate," he added. "The training of local or British workers to fill skilled jobs currently occupied by migrant workers will not happen overnight."

He argued that the current points-based system for immigration, which stops low-skilled workers coming to Britain, is working, and warned that a radical cap imposed too quickly could "choke off" the economic recovery. "It could potentially cut off a labour supply and impede growth in UK companies, which will be devastating given that the government's hopes for reducing unemployment hinge solely on the private sector growing jobs," added Davies.
Employers say they want to have access to the best workers. "Companies want to hire local people, but they often have trouble finding local residents with the basic skills, drive and attitude needed to help the business succeed," said Adam Marshall, director of policy at the British Chambers of Commerce. He added that the "unintended consequences" of the cap could be widespread.*_



My point exactly....



.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Ah......but John Gray did - that is, John Gray the political philosopher and author of 'Straw Dogs ', 'False Dawn - the Delusions of Global Capitalism' and other seminal works. (Not to be confused with the John Gray who wrote that silly 'Men are from Mars, Women from Venus' book). Other economists -Will Hutton in the UK and Hyman Minsky in the U.S. to name but two -did so too.


I will definitely check out John Gray´s books. See also _The Enigma of Capital And the Crises of Capitalism_ by David Harvey - succinctly reviewed by my OH here:

Book Review: The Enigma of Capital And the Crises of Capitalism by David Harvey - Blogcritics Books


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> From today's 'Observer'....
> 
> 
> _* Today's research suggests that fears of a dramatic decline in the skills of British graduates and school-leavers are driving employers to look abroad.
> ...



This drive to create more univercity (18th century spelling ) graduates is at the expense of standards. All you have to do is lower the pass standard and you get more graduates. Simple!
(... but stupid)

I know a couple of kids who got their degrees but their literacy skills were zero. One boy spent his 4 years (including 1 year repeated) boozing and I still wonder how the hell they could give him a degree.


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

JBODEN said:


> One boy spent his 4 years (including 1 year repeated) boozing and I still wonder how the hell they could give him a degree.


Whilst with wine you have books which tell you which vintage was good and which was ordinary or bad one doesn't have the same classification for degrees so this boozers degree is equal to mine.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I will definitely check out John Gray´s books. See also _The Enigma of Capital And the Crises of Capitalism_ by David Harvey - succinctly reviewed by my OH here:
> 
> Book Review: The Enigma of Capital And the Crises of Capitalism by David Harvey - Blogcritics Books


Will do. I spend 50% of my time here reading. 
Start with 'Heresies' by John Gray. It's a collection of his New Stateman pieces.
I'm also interested in the writings of Philip Blond....am about to order 'Red Tory'.
If you google John Gray you can read a review by him of a book by prolific (and imo woolly-minded liberal) A.C. Grayling. It gives you a flavour of his work.


Have just read your OH's views on homeopathy etc..........oh yes oh yes oh yes.:clap2:
Ii'm sending him a virtual magnum of Bollinger


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

JBODEN said:


> This drive to create more univercity (18th century spelling ) graduates is at the expense of standards. All you have to do is lower the pass standard and you get more graduates. Simple!
> (... but stupid)
> 
> I know a couple of kids who got their degrees but their literacy skills were zero. One boy spent his 4 years (including 1 year repeated) boozing and I still wonder how the hell they could give him a degree.


See this article about a level results. Perhaps the most telling phrase is the last sentence
_*The overall A-level pass rate rose for the 28th year in row. It now stands at 97.6%.*_
BBC News - University place scramble gets under way


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

JBODEN said:


> Whilst with wine you have books which tell you which vintage was good and which was ordinary or bad one doesn't have the same classification for degrees so this boozers degree is equal to mine.


But you do...formally and informally. As well as the First, Upper Second etc. classification of the degree itself knowledgeable employers will look at the awarding University.
The UK has four Universities in the world top ten ranking : Oxbridge, London (my alma mater) and I think either Durham or St. Andrews, I'm not sure (I'll google).
Some Universities have very low entrance qualifications and employers soon learn that their graduates are likely to be of poorer quality.
The University of East Anglia in Norwich (UEA) used to be known as the University of Easy Access as it had many mature students with few study skills or prior academic qualifications. This was unfair in some respects but had a small hard kernel of truth.
I have a friend who recruits graduates mainly on the Universities they studied at rather than whether they have a First, Upper Second or Third. Her reasoning is that a Lower Second from University College London is worth more than a First from some former Polytechnics (not all, some are better than some redbricks).


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Have just read your OH's views on homeopathy etc..........oh yes oh yes oh yes.:clap2:
> Ii'm sending him a virtual magnum of Bollinger


Works just fine on my daughter mrypg9. I don't understand _*why*_ it works, but it does for her, so I'm not knocking it.

PS Guess which university I went to!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Works just fine on my daughter mrypg9. I don't understand _*why*_ it works, but it does for her, so I'm not knocking it.
> 
> PS Guess which university I went to!!


I'm not denying it works for some people...but I think it's all in the mind....a matter of faith. Like most successful medical treatments, tho'....

Did you go to London Uni? If so, which College?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I'm not denying it works for some people...but I think it's all in the mind....a matter of faith. Like most successful medical treatments, tho'....
> 
> Did you go to London Uni? If so, which College?


It's definitely NOT a matter of faith. My daughter had _*no idea*_ she was even taking "medicine" when she started and the results were pretty fast coming. Anyway, I'm not into defending my personal choices, but I like people to know there are alternatives that may or may not work for you. Like I said before, I haven't got a clue how or why they work 'cos the science behind it - well basically there _*is*_ no science behind it, but there's no harm in it either. I have friends who are homeopaths who I trust implicitly, so I have no doctors fees either.

London Uni??? No, UEA I'm afraid. I don't remember entry requirements being particularly low, but it was pretty easy going once there actually!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> It's definitely NOT a matter of faith. My daughter had _*no idea*_ she was even taking "medicine" when she started and the results were pretty fast coming. Anyway, I'm not into defending my personal choices, but I like people to know there are alternatives that may or may not work for you. Like I said before, I haven't got a clue how or why they work 'cos the science behind it - well basically there _*is*_ no science behind it, but there's no harm in it either. I have friends who are homeopaths who I trust implicitly, so I have no doctors fees either.
> 
> London Uni??? No, UEA I'm afraid. I don't remember entry requirements being particularly low, but it was pretty easy going once there actually!


I'm just one of those born sceptics....I see things on tv such as operations performed via acupuncture with the patient fully conscious and yet I keep looking for the smoke and mirrors....
I do remember once when I was a student being in very rural Poland up a mountain in a wooden house and being very sick indeed probably from eating unwashed fruit. A very old lady (someone's Aunt) with no teeth and in full peasant costume went into the surrounding fields and returned with a bunch of what looked like grasses which she boiled into an evil-smelling and looking liquid (it looked like p***) and commanded me to drink it (pic!!!) I did and my vomiting and stomach cramps ceased almost immediately.
Was that homeopathy??

UEA....I knew some of the staff from some faculties...Dr. George Turner, Neil Cameron, Bryan Heading and of course cancer researcher and former MP Ian Gibson....All top quality teachers and researchers. Did you encounter any of them in your time there?
A lot depends on the faculty at any given point in time.
UEA have organised some truly valuable creative writing courses with some fabulous alumni....Ian McEwan, Malcolm Bradbury, Angus Wilson, Kazuo Ishiguro,
AnnE Enwright to name but a few.
No other University can match that record.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> It's definitely NOT a matter of faith. My daughter had _*no idea*_ she was even taking "medicine" when she started and the results were pretty fast coming. Anyway, I'm not into defending my personal choices, but I like people to know there are alternatives that may or may not work for you. Like I said before, I haven't got a clue how or why they work 'cos the science behind it - well basically there _*is*_ no science behind it, but there's no harm in it either. I have friends who are homeopaths who I trust implicitly, so I have no doctors fees either.
> 
> London Uni??? No, UEA I'm afraid. I don't remember entry requirements being particularly low, but it was pretty easy going once there actually!


For a list of the harm homeopathy can do see What's the harm in homeopathy?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Wow!!!! I've just googled world's top ten universities and yes there are four UK unis in that list.
To my amazement UCL ranks above Oxford!!!!! Imperial College London University is also in the world's top ten.
I don't think UCL was that good when I was there.....good, maybe, but above Oxford????


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I'm just one of those born sceptics....I see things on tv such as operations performed via acupuncture with the patient fully conscious and yet I keep looking for the smoke and mirrors....
> I do remember once when I was a student being in very rural Poland up a mountain in a wooden house and being very sick indeed probably from eating unwashed fruit. A very old lady (someone's Aunt) with no teeth and in full peasant costume went into the surrounding fields and returned with a bunch of what looked like grasses which she boiled into an evil-smelling and looking liquid (it looked like p***) and commanded me to drink it (pic!!!) I did and my vomiting and stomach cramps ceased almost immediately.
> Was that homeopathy??


No, it wasn't. That mixture contained active ingredients - homeopathy contains nothing whatever.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jimenato said:


> For a list of the harm homeopathy can do see What's the harm in homeopathy?


I have read the article.
I agree, there's no scientific back up to homeopathy.
I do not agree that homeopathic medicines harm you. 
Harm can be done if you stop following a treatment that is necessary to you ie the woman who stopped treating her asthma and took homeopathic remedies. The whole point of homeopathic medicine is that it's so diluted that no one understands how it can possibly have an effect. Taking it does not have a negative effect on your body. 
I see it as a way to possibly not take a synthetic chemical compound that may well have it's own series of after effects and quite possibly, and quite often, are worse than the original complaint. Personally I wouldn't use only alternative medicine, but aim to use a mix, not automatically turning to what our social security doctors dole out. I like to choose what I take, if I can. But that's my choice. There are plenty of people out there who only use one or the other, or mix as I do.
I have noticed that more doctors are using "alternative" treatments in both Spain and the UK, for example a friend here has been given acupuncture treatment on seg. soc. for pain and my sister was recommended acupuncture for arthritis, but I don't know if it was available on the soc. sec. Both treatments were successful!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I'm just one of those born sceptics....I see things on tv such as operations performed via acupuncture with the patient fully conscious and yet I keep looking for the smoke and mirrors....
> I do remember once when I was a student being in very rural Poland up a mountain in a wooden house and being very sick indeed probably from eating unwashed fruit. A very old lady (someone's Aunt) with no teeth and in full peasant costume went into the surrounding fields and returned with a bunch of what looked like grasses which she boiled into an evil-smelling and looking liquid (it looked like p***) and commanded me to drink it (pic!!!) I did and my vomiting and stomach cramps ceased almost immediately.
> Was that homeopathy??
> 
> ...


+++


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I do remember once when I was a student being in very rural Poland up a mountain in a wooden house and being very sick indeed probably from eating unwashed fruit.


Yeh, yeh, yeh!
are you sure it wasn't 'impure' vodka!

[Probably not homogenized. Talk about cutting corners on the production line in order to save a few cents - I don't know what the world is coming to ]


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I have read the article.
> I agree, there's no scientific back up to homeopathy.
> I do not agree that homeopathic medicines harm you.
> Harm can be done if you stop following a treatment that is necessary to you ie the woman who stopped treating her asthma and took homeopathic remedies. The whole point of homeopathic medicine is that it's so diluted that no one understands how it can possibly have an effect. Taking it does not have a negative effect on your body.
> ...


Correct - homeopathic medicines cannot harm you - they don't contain anything that can harm you or for that matter anything at all. 

To choose what you take is obviously your prerogative but the choice has to be an _informed_ choice. Not everybody (e.g. children) have the capacity to make that informed choice. 

I note that you are convinced that it is homeopathy which has helped your daughter but it is very difficult to determine what has caused an improvement in any medical condition - simple observation of a single case doesn't do it. The medical industry spends a fortune every year determining which treatments work and which don't by performing large scale double blind placebo controlled trials. 

Hundreds of trials (of variable quality) of homeopathy have been conducted - it fails all the (high quality) ones.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

You are right, PW -I don't really know what homeopathy is, just what I_ think _it is...which isn't good enough, really..
I'll do some reading.

Jerzy....No, it wasn't impure vodka. Although I had planty of that...what's that bison stuff...zubrowska or a similiar name?? 
I rather like Wyborowa but it's hard to get outside Polska.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> You are right, PW -I don't really know what homeopathy is, just what I_ think _it is...which isn't good enough, really..
> I'll do some reading.
> 
> Jerzy....No, it wasn't impure vodka. Although I had planty of that...what's that bison stuff...zubrowska or a similiar name??
> I rather like Wyborowa but it's hard to get outside Polska.


Zubrowka - wonderful stuff

Two views on homeopathy

What is homeopathy?

What is homeopathy and does homeopathy work?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jimenato said:


> Correct - homeopathic medicines cannot harm you - they don't contain anything that can harm you or for that matter anything at all.
> 
> _*Hmmmm, so why did you post the article How homeopathy can harm you?? *_
> 
> ...


+++


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

This interesting discussion should be in a separate thread.



> Hmmmm, so why did you post the article How homeopathy can harm you??


Homeopathic remedies cannot harm you. Homeopathy as a system of medicine can where it replaces traditional evidence based medicine and where a homeopath gives wrong advice. I quote from John Jackson's article I referred to in an above linky:



> In July 2006, Sense about Science investigated claims that homeopaths had been giving dangerous information to consumers about malaria prevention. An undercover reporter asked for advice about anti-malarial preparations before going on a trip to a malaria-infested country.* In ten out of ten cases, homeopaths recommended homeopathic products without suggesting that the person also consult a GP.* As there are no ingredients in homeopathic preparations they cannot possibly offer protection against malaria.





> That could be read as a criticism of me as I have talked about using homeopathic medicine with my daughter.


OOPS didn't mean that. Actually I don't know if your daughter is 5 or 50! Sorry - no criticism meant.



> And that the choice has to be informed - you're right ! I wonder how many people are informed of not the homeopathic, acupuncture, reiki, chiropracter world of medicine, but the world of big pharmaceutical companies, testing methods, bending of the rules, bending of the statistics. Most people think they know what's happening, but I think a lot of people don't question what they see every day and what is thought of as the norm.


Traditional medicine is not perfect and there certainly are irregularities in testing - read Ben Goldacre's - Bad Science or his column in The Guardian. However the intent is that medicine should be evidence based and the vast majority of medical interventions have been tested and are efficacious.

Contrast this with homeopathy (and other CAM treatments) where if they have been tested at all, they are found to be no better than placebo. Will your homeopath tell you that?

The linky to the Society of Homeopaths I posted above has a typical piece of flummery:



> Scientifically it can not yet be explained precisely how homeopathy works


No it can't be. But much more importantly it can't even be shown to work at all.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jimenato said:


> This interesting discussion should be in a separate thread.


Yes, you're right. Perhaps we should wrap it up for now and to be really, really boring I have to say I've got to get to the cleaning 'cos I've got MIL coming in a couple of hours! I know, I've used this excuse before, but it's true!


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## geez (Apr 4, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Indeed. People who talk down Spain's economy obviously are unaware that it is one of the EU -and the world's - strongest economies, ranked number 9 in 2009.
> Number 4 in the EU, I believe.
> Spain's problem is its current low growth rate..


:clap2::clap2::clap2:

And, as a result, current incredibly high unemployment and under-employment rates despite the very low wages (Not sure I agree with the notion that Spain's salary stats are dodgy... I know lots of people who don't earn even close to 2k a month). All this means that housing prices will remain soft for the foreseeable future.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

geez said:


> :clap2::clap2::clap2:
> 
> And, as a result, current incredibly high unemployment and under-employment rates despite the very low wages (Not sure I agree with the notion that Spain's salary stats are dodgy... I know lots of people who don't earn even close to 2k a month). All this means that housing prices will remain soft for the foreseeable future.


Certainly there structural problems in the employment situation here. In 2007 it was estimated that 58% of the workforce - 11 million people including many well-qualified graduates - earn less than 1100 euros a month. They are known as "mileuristas". Then there is the fact that around 30% of the workforce are on temporary contracts; not just those working in seasonal industries like tourism and agriculture, but in other industries where employers like to be able to get rid of surplus labour cheaply and quickly. The government is trying to reduce this percentage by making it easier to sack permanent staff, which is not really the answer. But it all helps to explain why so many young people still live with their parents while newly-built houses stand empty.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I think the fact that labour laws make it so hard to get rid of surplus or incompetent workers is one of the chief reasons for Spain's poor economic performance. That and the foolish decision to make Spain the 'Florida of Europe' - God's waiting room in the sun for people who on the whole are not high-net worth individuals and in some areas have put a strain on health and social services.
It is far too tempting for employers, especially those with small or medium-sized enterprises, to take on temporary workers rather than face the risk of a downturn for whatever reason and having to maintain a workforce they can't afford.
The results: high youth unemployment,reduced investment in future growth, very low investment in training....and a dangerous gap between those with job security and those without.
As in the UK, the public sector takes up a disproportionate slice of economic activity.
I'm not suggesting a complete scrapping of employment protection laws, far from it, but the balance needs to be corrected.
There also seems a lack of entrepreneurialism and scarcity of venture capitalists....I wonder if that's a historical or cultural thing?


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## geez (Apr 4, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Certainly there structural problems in the employment situation here. In 2007 it was estimated that 58% of the workforce - 11 million people including many well-qualified graduates - earn less than 1100 euros a month. They are known as "mileuristas". Then there is the fact that around 30% of the workforce are on temporary contracts; not just those working in seasonal industries like tourism and agriculture, but in other industries where employers like to be able to get rid of surplus labour cheaply and quickly. The government is trying to reduce this percentage by making it easier to sack permanent staff, which is not really the answer. But it all helps to explain why so many young people still live with their parents while newly-built houses stand empty.


Agree that the milleuristas certainly pull down the salary stats, and I was horrified to learn that the recent 5% cut to public sector salaries included this cohort. Not sure the new laws are going to help the situation, but am sympathetic to small business owners I know who have to either a) horde funds they could otherwise use to build business in case they need to let someone go or b) worry that they don't have the money in reserve and risk their businesses going under during periods of downturn. However, the gulf between the conditions of temp and permanent workers really needs to be narrowed.

The home of my birth, Australia, also had up to 35% of the workforce on poorly protected temp contracts during the term of the last conservative government. It allowed for massive move of wealth to the top end of town and, like in Spain, an inability to move out of family homes for young people. Once the industrial landscape changed with a change of government, the demand for housing went through the roof and created a housing affordability crisis.

I'm with you on the empty house front. Last winter we took a trip down the length of Mediterranean Spain past thousands, maybe tens of thousands of empty homes (and under-ultizied holiday flats) and also saw the incredible poverty of barely-housed agricultural workers camped out burning boxes to keep warm. It was a Steinbeckian experience I won't quickly forget.


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## geez (Apr 4, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I think the fact that labour laws make it so hard to get rid of surplus or incompetent workers is one of the chief reasons for Spain's poor economic performance. That and the foolish decision to make Spain the 'Florida of Europe' - God's waiting room in the sun for people who on the whole are not high-net worth individuals and in some areas have put a strain on health and social services.
> It is far too tempting for employers, especially those with small or medium-sized enterprises, to take on temporary workers rather than face the risk of a downturn for whatever reason and having to maintain a workforce they can't afford.
> The results: high youth unemployment,reduced investment in future growth, very low investment in training....and a dangerous gap between those with job security and those without.
> As in the UK, the public sector takes up a disproportionate slice of economic activity.
> ...


I think it very much depends where you live in Spain. Many folks here seem to live down south where you might well think that God's in the next room. However, the Spain I've lived in for the last few years seems young, vibrant and full of good ideas being put into practice in the civic and commercial worlds. 

Can't answer you on the scarcity of of venture capitalists front but perhaps there's a reason why no Spanish banks have yet folded when so many in the English-speaking world have.

I personally have no issue living in a country where public sectors play a huge part in the economy. The alternatives are not that appealing, and mostly downright scary.


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

geez said:


> ... perhaps there's a reason why no Spanish banks have yet folded when so many in the English-speaking world have.


???folded???
Lehman Bros was allowed to go under and then everyone realized what a BIG mistake that was - it lead directly to the current recession. After that the big Banks bailed out the little Banks or Governments bought in to them to stop them folding.
The Spanish Cajas had serious solvency problems but the Gov just couldn't allow them to go down.


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## geez (Apr 4, 2010)

JBODEN said:


> ???folded???
> Lehman Bros was allowed to go under and then everyone realized what a BIG mistake that was - it lead directly to the current recession. After that the big Banks bailed out the little Banks or Governments bought in to them to stop them folding.
> The Spanish Cajas had serious solvency problems but the Gov just couldn't allow them to go down.


OK, replace 'folded' with 'failed'. No great fan of the transfer of public assets to the banking sector myself.

While mergers are happening in the caja sector, I wasn't aware that the Spanish state had taken majority shareholding in any of them or that any bank had gone under. The banks were reported to have passed the European-wide solvency test well and are still credited with weathering the storm better than most. Naturally, the real impact of all that surplus housing stock is yet to shake out. Downward price pressure will at some point become an irresistible force until employment improves. After years of crazy housing prices compounded by the GFC, there's massive pent up demand with all of those soon to be 30-somethings still at ma and pa's. Obviously, income is the missing factor.

I'm with mrypg9 in that I'm a bit tired of the Spanish economy being deliberately talked down by those who seek to profit from its basically strong fundamentals.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I think the fact that labour laws make it so hard to get rid of surplus or incompetent workers is one of the chief reasons for Spain's poor economic performance. That and the foolish decision to make Spain the 'Florida of Europe' - God's waiting room in the sun for people who on the whole are not high-net worth individuals and in some areas have put a strain on health and social services.
> It is far too tempting for employers, especially those with small or medium-sized enterprises, to take on temporary workers rather than face the risk of a downturn for whatever reason and having to maintain a workforce they can't afford.
> The results: high youth unemployment,reduced investment in future growth, very low investment in training....and a dangerous gap between those with job security and those without.
> As in the UK, the public sector takes up a disproportionate slice of economic activity.
> ...


Well, you can call me an unreconstructed old Leftie, but I'd rather live in a country that looks after its workers than one which sacrifices workers' rights in order to attract venture capitalists and entrepreneurs.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

geez said:


> I'm with you on the empty house front. Last winter we took a trip down the length of Mediterranean Spain past thousands, maybe tens of thousands of empty homes (and under-ultizied holiday flats) and also saw the incredible poverty of barely-housed agricultural workers camped out burning boxes to keep warm. It was a Steinbeckian experience I won't quickly forget.


The result of an inflationary building boom created by entrepreneurs and venture capitalists ... and we all know what happened when the bubble burst!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Well, you can call me an unreconstructed old Leftie, but I'd rather live in a country that looks after its workers than one which sacrifices workers' rights in order to attract venture capitalists and entrepreneurs.


 Workers are only workers when they are employed. Employers can only afford to employ people when their enterprises are profitable. The public sector can only pay out what it takes in from tax revenues ......from individuals and businesses.
Every public sector worker or service is funded from the profits of business. 
These are obvious truths but they are often forgotten.
Entrepreneurs and venture capitalists provide the capital which fuels our economy and enables businesses of all sizes to employ workers. They are vital to a flourishing economy.
I spent years of my adult life in paid employment in the public sector. My partner owned and ran a medium-sized business. I also fought two Parliamentary elections and one European Election for the Labour Party, led a Group on the District Council and was a Director of a Housing Association. I still am an active Trades Unionist and at one time was in a position to sit on Committees of the TUC and also as a Member of the Institute of Directors as I was a Director of my partner's Company. Seeing both sides of the economic coin was a very valuable experience from which I learnt a great deal.
'Workers rights', like many slogans of the Old Left, are meaningless abstractions in an economy which cannot give its working people jobs. No jobs =no workers=no rights.
Sensible Governments provide a framework in which business can prosper, people can be employed at fair and proper wages and redistribution can be effected through fair and progressive taxation of business and individuals.
I spent a lot of time in the former 'actually existing socialist countries' and know from first hand experience how these countries 'looked after their workers'.
No free trades unions but loads of talk about 'workers rights'.
Entrepreneurs and venture capitalists have done more to improve the rights and living conditions of workers all over the world than Marx, Engels, Trotsky and all of their ilk put together.
Neo-conservative and Socialist/Marxist Governments have in their unique ways caused misery to all working people.
A plague on both their houses.......


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> The result of an inflationary building boom created by entrepreneurs and venture capitalists ... and we all know what happened when the bubble burst!


I doubt if venture capitalism or entrepreneurs as these termsare is usually understood had much to do with it but speculation certainly played a huge role, fuelled by the huge influx of retirees and others from Northern Europe.
It was a huge mistake on the part of the Spanish Government to encourage this misguided policy as I have been pointing out on this forum for the past two years.
It is an excellent example of the wrong kind of investment and sensible entrepreneurs kept well out of it!
Spain needs investment in new technologies and clean green enterprises. A cash-strapped Government will be unable to supply the seed-corn capital needed for the research and development required to get these off the ground.
Hopefully the Spanish Government will learn the lessons from the UK and steer clear of anything resembling Brown's disastrous PFI initiatives.....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Sorry, I omitted the other ways Governments can raise money.....printing it aka quantitive easing or borrowing/issuing bonds
But we've already gone down the first road and may have to do so again and we already have a large debt ratio to GDP. Neither are desirable choices.
But if this Coalition Government continues with its foolhardy programme of too soon and too sharp cuts in public spending when the private sector is not ready to step into the breach.....who knows what we shall be forced to do?
Maybe the Queen should offer and lead guided tours of Buckingham Palace?
Or rent some of her other properties to Russian oligarchs?


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Sorry, I omitted the other ways Governments can raise money.....printing it aka quantitive easing or borrowing/issuing bonds
> But we've already gone down the first road and may have to do so again and we already have a large debt ratio to GDP. Neither are desirable choices.
> But if this Coalition Government continues with its* foolhardy programme of too soon and too sharp cuts in public spending when the private sector is not ready to step into the breach*.....who knows what we shall be forced to do?
> Maybe the Queen should offer and lead guided tours of Buckingham Palace?
> Or rent some of her other properties to Russian oligarchs?


I largely agree with what you have said in the last few posts but I didn't understand this bit. If the government don't cut soon and hard then what will happen? I assume they will have to borrow money to pay for the non-cut services and this seems to be what they are trying to avoid. Are you saying that this borrowing is the lesser of two evils (the other being the cuts)?

Also, in what way can the private sector step into the breach? In what capacity?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Hopefully the Spanish Government will learn the lessons from the UK and steer clear of anything resembling Brown's disastrous PFI initiatives.....


Well at least we agree on that ...


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Workers are only workers when they are employed. Employers can only afford to employ people when their enterprises are profitable. The public sector can only pay out what it takes in from tax revenues ......from individuals and businesses.
> Every public sector worker or service is funded from the profits of business.
> These are obvious truths but they are often forgotten.
> Entrepreneurs and venture capitalists provide the capital which fuels our economy and enables businesses of all sizes to employ workers. They are vital to a flourishing economy.
> ...


I think we'll have to agree to differ here Mary! In my opinion you are a worker if you need to sell your labour in order to survive, regardless of whether you are presently employed or not. In good times, reformist governments will grant concessions to the workers but as soon as the **** hits the fan they take them away again, because it's the capitalists who control the governments and their interests must on no account be damaged. Never mind the poor sods whose labour made them rich, they will just have to "tighten their belts". The unions in Spain will be out on 29 September and I for one will be rooting for them!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> I think we'll have to agree to differ here Mary! In my opinion you are a worker if you need to sell your labour in order to survive, regardless of whether you are presently employed or not. In good times, reformist governments will grant concessions to the workers but as soon as the **** hits the fan they take them away again, because it's the capitalists who control the governments and their interests must on no account be damaged. Never mind the poor sods whose labour made them rich, they will just have to "tighten their belts". The unions in Spain will be out on 29 September and I for one will be rooting for them!



When the **** hits the fan, the workers should help their employers and their country to pull thru!!! IMO, its the capitalists who take the risks and their employees should show loyalty!!!

I've seen it happen in a tiny way in my husbands company. He, owning the company is the capitalist and his staff (all four of them) are the workers! Now if they wanted, they could give my husband the money so that they could then own the company as a cooperative, but they dont want to - why??? Cos they dont want the responsibility or the risk!!! However, my husbands staff are loyal to the end and when times are hard they are happy to do whatever it takes to keep the company going. When times are good, they benefit too. 

As for unions, well the union bosses earn a lot of money from their workers to cause trouble in my opinion. The days of needing a trade union to protect workers interests are long gone - its a shame they arent

Jo xxx


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2010)

I did not follow this thread, but just coming back to house prices. Yesterday I did see on CNN International a report about real estate in Florida. Houses which had a price tag of over 100.000 USD are now being sold for about 30.000. (Cheaper as a good new car!). If things are continuing like this in Spain, there is a chance that houses which are on the market for 500.000 Euros will be sold for 150.000, maybe soon. but this is speculating, of course. I wouldn't buy I house in Spain now in any case. Eva33


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Eva33 said:


> I did not follow this thread, but just coming back to house prices. Yesterday I did see on CNN International a report about real estate in Florida. Houses which had a price tag of over 100.000 USD are now being sold for about 30.000. (Cheaper as a good new car!). If things are continuing like this in Spain, there is a chance that houses which are on the market for 500.000 Euros will be sold for 150.000, maybe soon. but this is speculating, of course. I wouldn't buy I house in Spain now i any case. Eva33


That's absolutely true - I have inside knowledge through my OH


I can't see it happening for a long time in Spain - if ever tbh - the mindset of Spanish owners & the way the whole set up is here make it seem unlikely here


in America the banks need to get repossessed properties sold, because they aren't listed as assets - they are liabilities

at the moment I believe that a repossessed property in Spain is an 'asset' to a Spanish bank

the rules would need to change here before prices truly dropped that much


we can always hope though (as potential purchasers, not sellers, obviously)


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

I think that its a good deal more simple.
At the moment there are more property's than buyers, this will change as the discounted units get bought & we will move back into the upswing where there are more buyers than sellers.
The UK buyers are simply waiting for the chance to move abroad, when conditions are right they will start arriving as Spain is still there 1st choice destination IMO.

The Olympics in 2012 should see sentiments improve in the UK, so as this ends & before the bill has to be paid we may well see some serious buyers looking for good property again (time will tell)


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

playamonte said:


> I think that its a good deal more simple.
> At the moment there are more property's than buyers, this will change as the discounted units get bought & we will move back into the upswing where there are more buyers than sellers.
> The UK buyers are simply waiting for the chance to move abroad, when conditions are right they will start arriving as Spain is still there 1st choice destination IMO.
> 
> The Olympics in 2012 should see sentiments improve in the UK, so as this ends & before the bill has to be paid we may well see some serious buyers looking for good property again (time will tell)



Yes, I like that view!! When property prices in Spain are low enough (for the british to think its a good deal) and when the exchange rate and the British economy picks up, I believe the buyers will come back. Its also noticeable (by estate agent friends) here that there is an increase in Scandinavian, russian and french people moving to my area. So if all things carry on as they are, things may well pick up in the not too distant future ????????????????????????????????!! Maybe?????

Jo xx


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

jojo said:


> Yes, I like that view!! When property prices in Spain are low enough (for the british to think its a good deal) and when the exchange rate and the British economy picks up, I believe the buyers will come back. Its also noticeable (by estate agent friends) here that there is an increase in Scandinavian, russian and french people moving to my area. So if all things carry on as they are, things may well pick up in the not too distant future ????????????????????????????????!! Maybe?????
> 
> Jo xx


Depends what type of russians they are ? The only good ones are women . The rest should never have been allowed into the country.

Playamonte , I hope it's that simple but how long will it take for 1,500,000 built , half-built & moth-balled properties take to sell ? The spanish gov. own recent forecast , leaving out foreign buyers, states that they will only need to build 50,000 properties a year for the next 30 years to keep pace with their own requirements !
It will take more than the pound going back up to 1,60 , although that will help, to clear the surplus that's available & that doesn't include the 10's of 000's of repo's that the banks have. 
Then throw in the situation in andalucia with demolitions , legal properties now considered illegal, corruption, etc;etc; etc. 
Then again , as has been proved in the past in the UK , there's always another load of people who appear to never have heard of problems anywhere & will be chomping at the bit to join the exodus on to the roundabout, many to be fleeced & rather more to fall prey to their own stupidity. And on it will go. 
( I'm standing in for Mary  )


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I think we'll have to agree to differ here Mary! In my opinion you are a worker if you need to sell your labour in order to survive, regardless of whether you are presently employed or not. In good times, reformist governments will grant concessions to the workers but as soon as the **** hits the fan they take them away again, because it's the capitalists who control the governments and their interests must on no account be damaged. Never mind the poor sods whose labour made them rich, they will just have to "tighten their belts". The unions in Spain will be out on 29 September and I for one will be rooting for them!


Yes, capitalists control governments. They don't do it very well either. But then the alternative whenever put into practice is far worse, in terms of both economic prosperity or human freedoms including workers rights.
The UK electorate will always choose to be governed from the centre so the practical course is to make government serve ALL the people.
And what are 'capitalists'? Over 75% of UK enterprises are small businesses employing fewer than five workers. The owner him/herself usually works alongside his/her employees.Profit margins are often small and precarious.
Like you, I have money invested....we are capitalists, like it or not.
As for Trades Unions......the percentage of workers who are unionised in Spain is small. Less than half the workforce. The strike will have the impact of a very small earthquake in rural Chile. 
And what is the point of striking if you have no credible alternative strategy to propose?
Less than 35% of UK workers are in Trades Unions. In our Companies, the only two people in Trades Unions were my partner and myself, the Directors!!! When we urged our employees to join a union the reply was always: 'Why? We're well-paid, have excellent conditions and if we have any complaints they get sorted'.
The unionised workforce is confined largely to the public sector and ironically large financial institutions.
The recent BA cabin staff strike was voted for by less than 27% of those eligible to vote...where were the workers rights of those who wanted to work?
I have always been pragmatic and realistic in my approach to politics as imo any other view is as useless as calculating the number of angels on the proverbial head of the pin.
Many people's political views are really a secular religion, faith-based. I think it's important to combine principle and realism if you want to make a real improvement in people's lives.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> As for unions, well the union bosses earn a lot of money from their workers to cause trouble in my opinion. The days of needing a trade union to protect workers interests are long gone - its a shame they arent
> 
> Jo xxx



Agreed with everything but that paragraph.
There are still far too many stupid, ruthless and incompetent employers out there. Staff need protection. You'd be amazed at the number of cases of unfair dismissal, discrimination etc that occur. I know....I've dealt with them.
As for huge salaries...most Union leaders earn around the £100k mark with benefits. Hardly megabucks these days for running what is effectively a large plc.
Unions offer many services to their members- legal advice, financial services, BUPA at reduced rates -as well as representing their interests.
They also help shape Government legislation. I've sat on many Government Committees as a representative of my Union discussing proposed legislation.
And the best example of unions working for the greater good is Germany where the Mitbestimmung law requires union representation on the board of enterprises with over fifteen employees (I think, not sure of the present nuimber).


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jojo said:


> When the **** hits the fan, the workers should help their employers and their country to pull thru!!! IMO, its the capitalists who take the risks and their employees should show loyalty!!!
> 
> I've seen it happen in a tiny way in my husbands company. He, owning the company is the capitalist and his staff (all four of them) are the workers! Now if they wanted, they could give my husband the money so that they could then own the company as a cooperative, but they dont want to - why??? Cos they dont want the responsibility or the risk!!! However, my husbands staff are loyal to the end and when times are hard they are happy to do whatever it takes to keep the company going. When times are good, they benefit too.
> 
> Jo xxx


It's not the small businesses who are the baddies, but the multinational corporations who put entire communities out of work when they move their operations to developing countries where labour is cheap and expendable.

I'll shut up now!


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> It's not the small businesses who are the baddies, but the multinational corporations who put entire communities out of work when they move their operations to developing countries where labour is cheap and expendable.
> 
> I'll shut up now!


Oh no you don't!
Why do you think that these multinationals relocate some or all their operations?
Maybe it's because the current employees are demanding more money for less productivity. 
Maybe the labour laws makes administration more & more complex (more&more units employed in admin rather than in productive work).
Maybe the shareholders are demanding increased profitability & thus higher dividends.
Decisions to relocate are never so simple that a Company can say, ''... lets relocate to where labour is cheap''.


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2010)

JBODEN said:


> Oh no you don't!
> Why do you think that these multinationals relocate some or all their operations?
> Maybe it's because the current employees are demanding more money for less productivity.
> Maybe the labour laws makes administration more & more complex (more&more units employed in admin rather than in productive work).
> ...


Power corrupts. Human kind is by nature selfish and greedy. Except the members of this forum, of course... And this was like this since the beginning of mankind and will continue to be until the end!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Eva33 said:


> Power corrupts. Human kind is by nature selfish and greedy. Except the members of this forum, of course... And this was like this since the beginning of mankind and will continue to be until the end!


That is the truest thing written on this forum. The Mods should send you a magnum of Bollinger
And because of this, all political projects which promise 'heaven on earth', whether of a left or right-wing variety, are doomed to fail.
Socialism, neo-conservatism, fascism, Communism....all are secular religions and fail to take account of human weakness.
We may have made progress in the scientific arena and in the technological advances which are the spin-off from it but morally and spiritually we are the same as when we wore animal skins and lived in straw huts.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> It's not the small businesses who are the baddies, but the multinational corporations who put entire communities out of work when they move their operations to developing countries where labour is cheap and expendable.
> 
> I'll shut up now!


And where they bring jobs and prosperity and in most cases democracy. Why are so many African countries vying to attract financial institutions offshoots such as call centres? 

I agree that globalisation is very very bad news....but it won't be overthrown by revolutions or even political activity.
It will die of its own internal contradictions.

Africa is a potential market of millions of consumers. It needs entrepreneurs not unfocused aid. In small ways this change is already happening in the most surprising countries. It's a big mistake to think all developing countries are helpless basket cases, as some seem to (not you).


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> That is the truest thing written on this forum. The Mods should send you a magnum of Bollinger
> .


Thanks, I don't drink, but please, please give me one more star


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> I largely agree with what you have said in the last few posts but I didn't understand this bit. If the government don't cut soon and hard then what will happen? I assume they will have to borrow money to pay for the non-cut services and this seems to be what they are trying to avoid. Are you saying that this borrowing is the lesser of two evils (the other being the cuts)?
> 
> Also, in what way can the private sector step into the breach? In what capacity?



Sorry, just read your post.
What I'm saying is that if you want to cut spending then it doesn't make sense to make an extra 100000 workers a year redundant by your policies of axing public sector jobs (Coalition's Budget Book figures) since they will be receiving welfare benefits and the economy will lose their tax revenue and spending power.
The Coalition's stated strategy is for the private sector to provide jobs for the unemployed as it hopes its cuts in Corporation Tax and other 'tweaks' will give the private sector a boost. The Government is also placing a great deal of faith in private sector-led export growth.
Alisdair Darling set out a programme for reducing the deficit which combined tax increases and more phased and targeted cuts in public spending and judging by the figures released for the first two quarters of this year his strategy was paying off, albeit weakly.
Now many economists are predicting a double-dip recession here and in the US.


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## JBODEN (Jul 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> ... a programme for reducing the deficit with combined tax increases ...


Nice! First they overspend and then they demand even more taxes to balance the books. If we, the taxpayer, overspent we couldn't ask the exchequer to cover our shortfall.
The only solution is to cut back on Govt spending. 
Firstly abolish quango-s
See Every quango in Britain | News | guardian.co.uk


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

JBODEN said:


> Nice! First they overspend and then they demand even more taxes to balance the books. If we, the taxpayer, overspent we couldn't ask the exchequer to cover our shortfall.
> The only solution is to cut back on Govt spending.
> Firstly abolish quango-s
> See Every quango in Britain | News | guardian.co.uk



Agreed....but the big question is where, how fast and how deep. That is where the disagreement is focussed.
A good example is IDS' plans to get people off welfare and into work. His project will initially entail an expansion of the current welfare budget but in the long term it will save money and hopefully get people off welfare dependancy.
I'm with IDS...never thought I'd say that publicly.


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