# Long term vagabonds



## Myhnabird (Apr 1, 2017)

Hello! I'm brand new to this forum and thought I should introduce myself. I'm Mary, 55 years young, British and Canadian passport, married to Matthew, also 55, Australian, Dutch, Canadian passport. We've both traveled a lot in our youths but, oddly enough, very little since being together. We've been too busy saving for our retirement...

Anyway, now that retirement is looming (we hope to be in Europe within the next 2-3 years), I'm trying to research the nitty gritty of what we can and can't do. ie - we cannot just arrive in Europe and travel around as long as we wish. I had thought that my British and Matthew's Dutch passport would allow us to do this but Brexit has put paid to that idea. However, there is the possibility of becoming resident in one country which would give us access to the rest of Europe. 

We're not fabulously wealthy but we are careful savers and I believe we have enough funds to satisfy proof of financial solvency. Plus, various small pensions will kick in at 60, 65 and 67. The tax issue of becoming non-resident of Canada is something we are aware of and will get advice about.

So... the goal is to spend perhaps 10 years exploring Europe. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to do this? 

Thanks!
Mary :canada:


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## Alvarro (Dec 23, 2016)

I'm afraid that I do not have any suggestions regarding your next, exciting, 10 years exploring Europe. I do however congratulate you on your plans and hope that you have a wonderful time.


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## Myhnabird (Apr 1, 2017)

Thank you for your encouraging note, Alvarro. We're really looking forward to discovering Slow Travel.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Myhnabird said:


> Hello! I'm brand new to this forum and thought I should introduce myself. I'm Mary, 55 years young, British and Canadian passport, married to Matthew, also 55, Australian, Dutch, Canadian passport. We've both traveled a lot in our youths but, oddly enough, very little since being together. We've been too busy saving for our retirement...
> 
> Anyway, now that retirement is looming (we hope to be in Europe within the next 2-3 years), I'm trying to research the nitty gritty of what we can and can't do. ie - we cannot just arrive in Europe and travel around as long as we wish. I had thought that my British and Matthew's Dutch passport would allow us to do this but Brexit has put paid to that idea. However, there is the possibility of becoming resident in one country which would give us access to the rest of Europe.
> 
> ...


:welcome:

You're correct in that your British passport might not allow free travel around Europe after Brexit - we just don't know yet.

However, it will certainly help that your husband has a Dutch passport, allowing him to 'exercise treaty rights' to live in another EU country, & for you to apply for residence as his spouse. This is often easier than setting up in the 'home country', in his case Holland.

That possibly wouldn't allow you visa-free travel, though. If, British citizens are to be treated as current non-EU citizens, you would still need a Schengen visa to visit other countries in the Schengen zone, & would only be allowed to visit for a max of 90 days in every 180. With a European base this shouldn't be too much of an issue imo, although it might not be exactly what you had planned.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

That does sound like a wonderful plan!

Presumably you will have to be officially resident in one EU country (for tax purposes, obtaining an EHIC etc) even if you spend most of your time travelling abroad? Could that not be Holland, given that your husband has a Dutch passport?


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## Myhnabird (Apr 1, 2017)

xabiachica said:


> :welcome:
> 
> However, it will certainly help that your husband has a Dutch passport, allowing him to 'exercise treaty rights' to live in another EU country, & for you to apply for residence as his spouse. This is often easier than setting up in the 'home country', in his case Holland.
> 
> ...


So, even if I were granted residence status in the Netherlands, I still would not have the right to travel freely? But, as you pointed out, it's a much shorter trip between European countries than it is from Canada. And 3 months is a decent time to have a poke around France...

Thank you very much for your response!


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## Myhnabird (Apr 1, 2017)

Good morning, Alcalaina.

We had never considered moving to the Netherlands as, until xabiachica mentioned it, we were not aware that I could be resident there as Matthew's wife. However, the Netherlands would not be at the top of our list of places to live as the cost of living (I'm assuming) will be a fair bit higher than in Spain, Portugal or France. Also, neither of us speak a word of Dutch and it's important for us to integrate (at least a little) in the communities we spend month's at a time in. I speak high school Spanish and a little French, which at least gives us a start. Matthew speaks only the strange dialect that Aussies speak  so he'd really feel isolated if neither of us could make ourselves understood.

Thank you very much for your response!


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## Myhnabird (Apr 1, 2017)

xabiachica -- I have replied to your note but it's awaiting a moderator's nod...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Myhnabird said:


> So, even if I were granted residence status in the Netherlands, I still would not have the right to travel freely? But, as you pointed out, it's a much shorter trip between European countries than it is from Canada. And 3 months is a decent time to have a poke around France...
> 
> Thank you very much for your response!


Visa requirements are based on nationality, so that's correct - right of residence makes no difference


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## Myhnabird (Apr 1, 2017)

Ok, here's a further question - I've downloaded and read the document "Freedom to move and live in Europe" but it doesn't address this: if we take up residence in the Netherlands, can we then travel from one country to another so long as we don't stay over 90 days in any one? ie, 3 months in Portugal, followed by 3 months in Spain, then 3 months in France, 3 months in Italy, etc, etc. I suspect this might be ok as otherwise we'd be like any other non-EU national and have to leave the EU every 90 days out of 180. If we have to return to the Netherlands every 90 days, that would be better than having to leave the EU entirely but still not as good as being able to jump from country to country...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Myhnabird said:


> Ok, here's a further question - I've downloaded and read the document "Freedom to move and live in Europe" but it doesn't address this: if we take up residence in the Netherlands, can we then travel from one country to another so long as we don't stay over 90 days in any one? ie, 3 months in Portugal, followed by 3 months in Spain, then 3 months in France, 3 months in Italy, etc, etc. I suspect this might be ok as otherwise we'd be like any other non-EU national and have to leave the EU every 90 days out of 180. If we have to return to the Netherlands every 90 days, that would be better than having to leave the EU entirely but still not as good as being able to jump from country to country...


An EU citizen can indeed spend as long as they like in any EU country (subject to local registration rules). So your husband would be able to.

BUT - if after Brexit is final, British citizens are treated like any other non-EU citizen, you, as a British citizen would only be able to spend 90 days in every 180 in the Schengen zone in its entirety. Apart from that in which you have residence, of course.

It's NATIONALITY which counts - not residence.

That's why many of us British citizens living in EU countries are seriously considering taking the nationality of the country in which we live - those of us who are lucky enough to have lived there long enough.

Some of us on this Spain forum will be doing so. We have to have been registered as resident in Spain for 10 years before we can, and pass language & culture exams. 

At least one on the Spain forum has applied for an Irish passport, & another a German one. They are entitled to them either by birth or by ancestry.


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## Myhnabird (Apr 1, 2017)

Thank you very much for clarifying that, xabiachica. None of us know how Brexit will shake out but I have my doubts that "free travel" is going to stay.

Matthew and I will have to have many long talks over the next few years...


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## Strontium (Sep 16, 2015)

The basics are the open borders mean you should be resident in one country but allow you to live in any EU country for as long as you wish but after a period there you have to "register" and become resident. join the tax system etc of the country you have moved to or you may move on to a another EU country before the end of the "must register" period You have to be "resident" somewhere and In the Netherlands EVERYONE speaks English but as long as you donot stay in one EU country longer than the qualifying period you may remain resident in the Netherlands but spend little time there. If you officially work in another EU country you will need to resister there and loose your NL residency. Due to the size and variety of the EU it makes spend time here before you decide to move, a couple of months spread over say 6 locations staying in local's houses via something like AIRB*B will give you a valuable insite and help to narrow the vast number of choices. What one person things as a relaxing old small town on a slow river others think as a remote dump with no life which are the different views of the same place interweb feedback creates.


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## Myhnabird (Apr 1, 2017)

Thank you for your detailed post, strontium. 

I've been researching NL citizenship and it doesn't appear to be good news for Matthew. He let his Dutch passport lapse and it appears unlikely that he'll be allowed a renewal, despite his Dutch father. So now it's back to fingers crossed for minimal Brexit fallout.

This is very, very disappointing. I had a nice little fantasy going on in my head that involved winters in Spain and Portugal and summers in the Netherlands....


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Myhnabird said:


> Good morning, Alcalaina.
> 
> We had never considered moving to the Netherlands as, until xabiachica mentioned it, we were not aware that I could be resident there as Matthew's wife. However, the Netherlands would not be at the top of our list of places to live as the cost of living (I'm assuming) will be a fair bit higher than in Spain, Portugal or France. Also, neither of us speak a word of Dutch and it's important for us to integrate (at least a little) in the communities we spend month's at a time in. I speak high school Spanish and a little French, which at least gives us a start. Matthew speaks only the strange dialect that Aussies speak  so he'd really feel isolated if neither of us could make ourselves understood.
> 
> Thank you very much for your response!


Thousands of brits lived happily in Europe before the UK joined, thousands will after the UK leaves the EU...stop speculating and wait and see what happens.

There is nowhere in mainland Europe that is cheap to live, including Spain so you need to really look at your budget and I'd guess increase it. Good Luck with your journey.


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## Myhnabird (Apr 1, 2017)

bob_bob said:


> There is nowhere in mainland Europe that is cheap to live, including Spain so you need to really look at your budget and I'd guess increase it. Good Luck with your journey.


Thanks, Bob Bob.

We'd figured we could live comfortably on around E3000/mo. If that's not realistic, then I guess we'll have to work for a few more years.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

bob_bob said:


> Thousands of brits lived happily in Europe before the UK joined, thousands will after the UK leaves the EU...stop speculating and wait and see what happens.
> 
> There is nowhere in mainland Europe that is cheap to live, including Spain so you need to really look at your budget and I'd guess increase it. Good Luck with your journey.


Do you really believe that visas won't be required?

Yes many people do get them, but for a retirement/non-lucrative visa for instance, the current financial requirement for a non-EU couple is over 30,000€ a year - & of course healthcare insurance.

That is way beyond the income of many British pensioners, so certainly fewer pensioners would be able to retire here.

I somehow doubt Britain will be given a special deal. 

Any non-EU citizen wishing to move to an EU country to work needs to get a work visa - for that the employer has to prove that no EU citizen is available to fill the post. So those visas are few & far between.

To move here to start a business, you need 500,000€ iirc. So that will stop most people.

Yes it will still be possible - but far more difficult. And impossible for many.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Myhnabird said:


> Thanks, Bob Bob.
> 
> We'd figured we could live comfortably on around E3000/mo. If that's not realistic, then I guess we'll have to work for a few more years.


That is realistic - & would be enough to secure you a non-lucrative visa (which of course you don't need atm, but will likely need after Brexit) as far as the most recently published figures are concerned.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> *Do you really believe that visas won't be required?*
> 
> Yes many people do get them, but for a retirement/non-lucrative visa for instance, the current financial requirement for a non-EU couple is over 30,000€ a year - & of course healthcare insurance.
> 
> ...


I never said that, I did say you will be able to live in Spain and if folk can't afford any extra cost then...tough, they can't move to Spain. I suggest we all wait and see what happens and stop guessing at what might happen.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

bob_bob said:


> I never said that, I did say you will be able to live in Spain and if folk can't afford any extra cost then...tough, they can't move to Spain. I suggest we all wait and see what happens and stop guessing at what might happen.


And those of us here who can't afford that...... still tough?


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> Do you really believe that visas won't be required?
> 
> Yes many people do get them, but for a retirement/non-lucrative visa for instance, the current financial requirement for a non-EU couple is over 30,000€ a year - & of course healthcare insurance.
> 
> ...


It's significantly less in France and on current exchange rates the OP would be fine here. Plus there are areas where housing is not too expensive and where they would be fine on that income (at current exchange rates).


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## Myhnabird (Apr 1, 2017)

I'm glad to hear that E3000 is realistic as, at today's exchange rate, it's is over $4200 Cdn. I expected it to cost more to live in wonderful, sunny, interesting Europe than to live in utterly uninteresting Edmonton (my apologies to Albertans) but nearly twice as much is a bit of a worry.



EverHopeful said:


> It's significantly less in France and on current exchange rates the OP would be fine here. Plus there are areas where housing is not too expensive and where they would be fine on that income (at current exchange rates).


Oh, EverHopeful, I adooooore France! May I PM you?


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Myhnabird said:


> Oh, EverHopeful, I adooooore France! May I PM you?


Why not have a look around the France forum? You can ask as many questions there as you like - and you will get lots of different views


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Megsmum said:


> And those of us here who can't afford that...... still tough?


Wait and see the outcomes, I for one doubt Spain will make it that bad for brits to live there.

How about the thousands of Spanish who have moved to the UK in very recent years, will the UK kick them out? No, of course they won't.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Myhnabird said:


> I'm glad to hear that E3000 is realistic as, at today's exchange rate, it's is over $4200 Cdn. I expected it to cost more to live in wonderful, sunny, interesting Europe than to live in utterly uninteresting Edmonton (my apologies to Albertans) but nearly twice as much is a bit of a worry.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, EverHopeful, I adooooore France! May I PM you?


€3k a month will see you right in Spain or France, that said it will not go as far in France...its a pricey country to live in.


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Megsmum said:


> And those of us here who can't afford that...... still tough?


Yes, its not some divine right to be able to live overseas.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

bob_bob said:


> Yes, its not some divine right to be able to live overseas.


Except that my children have grown up with that right, at least far as living in the EU is concerned - & I've had it for most of my life. 

And now, because of something we had no control over, & nothing that we did, that right is likely to be snatched away.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

bob_bob said:


> Yes, its not some divine right to be able to live overseas.



No one said it was. Utter rubbish, we like many others moved under a certain set of conditions and rules, what a stupid statement to make, no one said it was a divine right, but it's certainly not appropriate to dismiss people like myself, other young families etc who chose to live here, and then find themselves as bargaining chips, because politicians changed the rules. 

The I'm alright brigade may well say tough, until it affects them and theirs


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

You won't be kicked out for crying out loud, can you see the headlines, 'Spain kicks out brits' ?

Read post 25 again...brits are stoic, not some moaning groaning bunch promoting fear in each other.

Now, cheer up and wait and see what happens.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

bob_bob said:


> You won't be kicked out for crying out loud, can you see the headlines, 'Spain kicks out brits' ?
> 
> Read post 25 again...brits are stoic, not some moaning groaning bunch promoting fear in each other.
> 
> Now, cheer up and wait and see what happens.


No-one is talking about being kicked out of Spain.

It's the freedom & right to easily move to another EU country to live & work which is likely to go. Without having to apply for a visa.

For my daughters, that's a HUGE deal. It's a right they have grown up with, & a right they planned their futures around.

post #25 :confused2:


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

bob_bob said:


> You won't be kicked out for crying out loud, can you see the headlines, 'Spain kicks out brits' ?
> 
> Read post 25 again...brits are stoic, not some moaning groaning bunch promoting fear in each other.
> 
> Now, cheer up and wait and see what happens.


No one said we would, our point was that many would not fulfill the non EU criteria- you said, tough

Brits can be as stoic as they like, no one is moaning, no one is promoting fear. The facts are that you don't know any more than we do, what will happen, and the facts are many Brits abroad will not fulfill non EU requirements, and many children born or raised abroad, will now have less choices


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Megsmum said:


> No one said we would, our point was that many would not fulfill the non EU criteria- you said, tough
> 
> Brits can be as stoic as they like, no one is moaning, no one is promoting fear. The facts are that you don't know any more than we do, what will happen, and the facts are many Brits abroad will not fulfill non EU requirements, and many children born or raised abroad, will now have less choices


 perhaps the children born and bred in Spain can gain citizenship and look after mom and dad?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

bob_bob said:


> perhaps the children born and bred in Spain can gain citizenship and look after mom and dad?


I can gain Spanish citizenship, & so can my children, although none of us were born here.

But we shouldn't be in the position that we have to go to the time & expense to do so - & be FORCED to do so in order to keep rights we have grown up with - simply because someone else decided that we should lose them - again, through no fault of our own, and against our wishes.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

:focus:

We ( & I include me) seem to have strayed a bit from answering the OP's questiion - though I guess the uncertain outcome of Brexit will impact on British citizens' long term plans to move here.

Does anyone have any more advice for the OP? 

The only realistic advice is to wait & see - while making 'worst case scenario plans' since they don't plan to move for a couple of years at least.


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## Myhnabird (Apr 1, 2017)

I (the OP) don't see that we've strayed from the topic at all. xabiachica summed it up nicely with "the uncertain outcome of Brexit will impact on British citizens' long term plans to move here." I don't know that we want to move to Spain (or anywhere else in Europe) without a good, long look but the point is, even that long look is now in question (90 days is the merest glimpse). 

Obviously, waiting and seeing (and not fapping about it) is the best thing to do. I just find the waiting hard...

Mary


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

As I've said, wait and see.


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## TVFH (Oct 29, 2017)

*Thinking of moving...but where?*



Myhnabird said:


> I (the OP) don't see that we've strayed from the topic at all. xabiachica summed it up nicely with "the uncertain outcome of Brexit will impact on British citizens' long term plans to move here." I don't know that we want to move to Spain (or anywhere else in Europe) without a good, long look but the point is, even that long look is now in question (90 days is the merest glimpse).
> 
> Obviously, waiting and seeing (and not fapping about it) is the best thing to do. I just find the waiting hard...
> 
> Mary


Hi Mary and other expats,

I have been following this thread with interest as we are also thinking of moving back to Europe having lived in Australia for 10 years. We are originally from the UK and have dual British/Australian citizenship and passports. We are self funded retirees and would like to move closer to the UK for family reasons, but are unsure of which country?
Spain is probably the favourite because of the climate, but we are open to suggestions. I don't think either of us would tolerate the cold weather back in the UK.

We are correlating some info on possible countries to retire. Spain, France and Portugal are at the top of the list, but obviously the Brexit situation may have some impact on that. I am concerned if we choose any of those countries in the next year and move lock, stock, and we get residency, that (because we will enter under our rights as British/EU citizens) we may lose our right to residency. Can anyone clarify that, or does having residency, in Spain, France or Portugal mean that you can stay permanently as long as you can provide proof of retirement income?

Cheers,
TVFH


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

TVFH said:


> Hi Mary and other expats,
> 
> I have been following this thread with interest as we are also thinking of moving back to Europe having lived in Australia for 10 years. We are originally from the UK and have dual British/Australian citizenship and passports. We are self funded retirees and would like to move closer to the UK for family reasons, but are unsure of which country?
> Spain is probably the favourite because of the climate, but we are open to suggestions. I don't think either of us would tolerate the cold weather back in the UK.
> ...


Morning

Two points 



> Spain is probably the favourite because of the climate


. 

Sorry had to laugh as I’ve just fed the chickens and ducks in -4, and a heavy frost in the ground for the third month in a row




> Can anyone clarify that, or does having residency, in Spain, France or Portugal mean that you can stay permanently as long as you can provide proof of retirement income?


Yes... for Spain.... as it stands at the moment, whilst many of us don’t think things residency will change for us ( those already here at time of A50), the U.K. government and the EU appear to be still undecided. All is very much up in the air still as to what’s going to happen after March 2019


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## TVFH (Oct 29, 2017)

Thanks for that....I think we won't be moving to your area then! It's 34c here at the moment on the Gold Coast and 24c at night. I think at -4c the shock might kill us! Having said that....I just read somewhere that the President of Spain has said that even if the Brexit goes ahead expats will okay to stay in Spain....so that's a positive.

TVFH


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

TVFH said:


> Thanks for that....I think we won't be moving to your area then! It's 34c here at the moment on the Gold Coast and 24c at night. I think at -4c the shock might kill us! Having said that....I just read somewhere that the President of Spain has said that even if the Brexit goes ahead expats will okay to stay in Spain....so that's a positive.
> 
> TVFH




To be honest, many areas of Spain get to the minuses in winter. Others who live elsewhere will testify. It’s cold here in winter and fires are a must. Summers in my area are up to 45 during the day 

Yes, I’ve heard that Too, we wait :fingerscrossed:

Goood luck with your searches


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I live in SW Spain, about 50 miles from Africa as the vulture flies, and I have never felt so cold as in the past month...


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## Alvarro (Dec 23, 2016)

Same here in Jaen. I woke up one day last week to find my courtyard and garden thick with snow!

We had a scorching summer and the temperatures dropped alarmingly quickly to cold and wet weather, I had a minus 7 degrees recorded on one morning. Mind you, the snow on the mountains just to the south of my house looked very pretty!


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## TVFH (Oct 29, 2017)

*Weather*



Alcalaina said:


> I live in SW Spain, about 50 miles from Africa as the vulture flies, and I have never felt so cold as in the past month...


Thanks for that....you and Megsmum are doing a great job if you are trying to put us off moving to Spain! We are looking at the south/southeast, but according to the statistics the average temperatures don't look too bad. It's obvious that it is going to be very different to Australia, although even here we have our extremes in temperature. Perhaps others can give me some idea of the positive aspects of moving to the region? 

Cheers,
TVFH


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

TVFH said:


> Thanks for that....you and Megsmum are doing a great job if you are trying to put us off moving to Spain! We are looking at the south/southeast, but according to the statistics the average temperatures don't look too bad. It's obvious that it is going to be very different to Australia, although even here we have our extremes in temperature. Perhaps others can give me some idea of the positive aspects of moving to the region?
> 
> Cheers,
> TVFH


Spain is a wonderful place to live - that's all there is to it - though it isn't for everyone.

It's true about the weather. I'm halfway up on the east coast - where we rarely have long lasting extremes of weather. A couple of weeks ago I was talking to someone in the UK who was complaining about the cold. The temp there was the same as here at that very moment - though he was in a t-shirt & has wall to wall carpets & central heating whereas I was huddled under a blanket wearing thick socks & jumpers. I stopped short of putting on gloves, but only just...... Yes, indoors!

I told him that there had been 80+ flights cancelled that day, that motorways & major roads were closed to snow. He misunderstood & thought I was talking about the UK, saying that they hadn't had that much snow yet...... but the snow was in Spain. And still is in many areas. We even had snow on teh top of our coastal mountain a few days ago. 


The past few days here have been generally chilly with daytime max of about 13º, at night dropping near 0º or below, but glorious actually IN the sun.

Today we're expecting sun & a high around 20º, but over the next few days that will gradually drop to more normal 15º ish as a high.

Spain is often said to be a cold country which gets a lot of sun. It's true.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Yes, there were lots of stories in the press about people who had been trapped in their cars overnight when roads had become impassable due to snow.

We've only seen snow down here (5km inland, East of Málaga) on top of the highest mountains, but night time temperatures have been down to 3 or 4 degrees most nights for a few weeks, and even in the day time there have been cold winds quite a few days and temperatures only around 14/15 degrees.

The trouble is that once you live here and become acclimatised to the summer temperatures in the mid 30s and sometimes above, then when they drop to below 18/20 degrees, you feel cold. And if it is a nice day in winter with the temperature around 20 degrees, as it is today (a beautiiful sunny day) then when the sun goes down in the early evening and the temperature drops really sharply, again you feel cold. And as we all know, Spanish properties (at least in Southern areas where central heating is not common as it is in areas where really cold weather is normal in winter) are not built or equipped to feel cosy in lower temperatures.

A few short months, and we will all be moaning that it's too hot again. Sorry, OP, we do love it here really!


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

TVFH said:


> Thanks for that....you and Megsmum are doing a great job if you are trying to put us off moving to Spain! We are looking at the south/southeast, but according to the statistics the average temperatures don't look too bad. It's obvious that it is going to be very different to Australia, although even here we have our extremes in temperature. Perhaps others can give me some idea of the positive aspects of moving to the region?
> 
> Cheers,
> TVFH




No I’m certainly not trying to put you off, but you mentioned weather and I couldn’t resist as trudged through the frosty grounds :roll: and many people think that we are all sun and heat, even mild heat and it’s simply not true.

Positives. 

Overall a great climate we have all four seasons here in my dark corner of Spain &#55356;&#56810;&#55356;&#56824; spring and autumn are glorious, wildlife, flora and fauna absolutely unbeatable, great walking routes and plenty of historical places to visit from the well known to the small church in a local village.

Friendly welcoming people, with the odd exception, like anywhere. A great culture and proud nation, Maintaining it’s heritage, celebrating with gusto many many different anniversaries. Very few months go by where there is not some sort of fiesta in the local vicinity.

Expense... you can live reasonably cheaply but there are various things that cost more, all a bit subjective really 

Lifestyle an outdoor lifestyle, not much more to say in that


I love it here, despite the frosts, heat and rains ( which we desperately need at the moment). I could not imagine living anywhere else, certainly not the U.K. but never say never. It has its issues, the recession hit hard here, high unemployment particularly youth unemployment, that doesn’t affect us directly but it’s an issue. Paperwork can be a hassle, personally I’ve not found an issue with it, but others have, these things can be very regional or change from village to village or from day to day!

I also think, and firmly believe, it’s like anywhere, it’s what you make of it and it’s what you put into it. Also being an early retiree means I’m not in the rat race, I do work but, only by choice and not need. I’m sure working here and raising a family creates the same pressures as anywhere

So yes, spain &#55356;&#56810;&#55356;&#56824; in a great place to live, where I actually live is stupendous, very few extranjeros , relatively undiscovered, although we do have tourists , there’re not so visiable as on the coastal areas or the major tourist cities. We live close to the Portuguese border, and sometimes pop over for some of their fiestas and a bit of shopping. It’s only 2.5 hours to U.K. by plane allowing for reasonable flight costs and traveling times in emergencies etc. 

So it’s not all about the weather, unless you specifically want good weather all year round.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

TVFH said:


> Thanks for that....you and Megsmum are doing a great job if you are trying to put us off moving to Spain! We are looking at the south/southeast, but according to the statistics the average temperatures don't look too bad. It's obvious that it is going to be very different to Australia, although even here we have our extremes in temperature. Perhaps others can give me some idea of the positive aspects of moving to the region?
> 
> Cheers,
> TVFH


Not trying to put you off, just warning you that it isn't warm and sunny all the time, despite what the average temperatures say. It can be 18ºC on a sunny winter afternoon and we are all outside basking like lizards. But most houses don't have heating or insulation and when the temperature falls to about 5ºC at night it never really warms up indoors.

I wouldn't live anywhere else. The climate is only one aspect of Spain, and winter doesn't last long. Megsmum has summed up the positive aspects nicely, so I won't duplicate.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I am not familiar with the climate of the OP's current location, but I can assure you that for me, after 3 years in a tropical region where the temperature was never below 20ºC, I am glad to back in Spain where summer is hot and sunny, and winter is cold and snowy. 

I appreciate the cycle of the seasons much more now having missed out on it for some years.

That said, I have had enough of the cold this winter this year. Can someone turn on "spring" ?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Overandout said:


> I am not familiar with the climate of the OP's current location, but I can assure you that for me, after 3 years in a tropical region where the temperature was never below 20ºC, I am glad to back in Spain where summer is hot and sunny, and winter is cold and snowy.
> 
> I appreciate the cycle of the seasons much more now having missed out on it for some years.
> 
> That said, I have had enough of the cold this winter this year. *Can someone turn on "spring" ?*


Currently 15° with a max of 16 forecast and in mid-February, that isn't too bad.


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## Chica22 (Feb 26, 2010)

The temperature has increased today, but I met a friend for coffee this morning dressed in jeans, boots and a lightweight jacket, on a table near to us were 2 girls, both dressed in shorts and one in a bikini top. I think it must be half term week in the Uk as walking around the shops I saw quite a few people in shorts and sandals.

Obviously these people think it is warm, whereas once acclaimitised to the weather today is just another winters day.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Chica22 said:


> The temperature has increased today, but I met a friend for coffee this morning dressed in jeans, boots and a lightweight jacket, on a table near to us were 2 girls, both dressed in shorts and one in a bikini top. I think it must be half term week in the Uk as walking around the shops I saw quite a few people in shorts and sandals.
> 
> Obviously these people think it is warm, whereas once acclaimitised to the weather today is just another winters day.


Yep it's half term in the UK this week!

I met a friend for coffee on Tuesday. I was wearing boots, jeans, thick jumper & a heavy wrap/poncho thing. We were away from the touristy area & all of us sat outside the bar were dressed that way... & were stripping off layers in the sun!

That's the secret - layers. As soon as we left the table & were back in the shade it was flippin freezing!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Spring seems to have arrived at last. Currently 21ºC outside (in the shade) and 15ºC indoors, according to my temperature-sensing gizmo. And I just heard the first nightingales which is always a good sign.

I've just come in and had to put a jumper on.


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## cermignano (Feb 9, 2017)

The only place I have been warm in winter is Florida. But you can't live there all year round and unbearable for me in summer. Never been to the Canaries, but some go there in winter for the weather


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

cermignano said:


> The only place I have been warm in winter is Florida. But you can't live there all year round and unbearable for me in summer. Never been to the Canaries, but some go there in winter for the weather


We once went on holiday to Florida in December and they had snow for the first time in donkey's years (just my luck!). We'd only taken warm weather clothes and felt freezing, had to go out and buy sweaters.

The same thing happened to me in Tunisia once in January, it snowed for the first time in 40 years and lots of the local people were outside watching it in wonderment.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

TVFH said:


> Thanks for that....you and Megsmum are doing a great job if you are trying to put us off moving to Spain! We are looking at the south/southeast, but according to the statistics the average temperatures don't look too bad. It's obvious that it is going to be very different to Australia, although even here we have our extremes in temperature. Perhaps others can give me some idea of the positive aspects of moving to the region?
> 
> Cheers,
> TVFH


Southern Spain is not that different compared with the area where you are currently living (as long as you are not up in the mountains) except the heat is drier and the nights usually cooler (expect heat to come up from the Sahara). Spain, like most if not all countries, is experiencing more frequent weather events than in the past. I think it was around 10 years ago there was a severe frost in the area where you live - it actually killed lots of native vegetation. If the place you choose to live doesn't already have reverse cycle air conditioning, you can always get it installed. Many houses, however, as has been indicated by others, are not insulated and there are not the same obligations to declare eg. energy consumption as in France.

It is also much, much easier to get rental accommodation when you first arrive than it is in France, although in can be very difficult in the holiday season. But the cost of living is generally lower than where you are and lower than in France. You also have to watch out for dodgy developments that they are trying to sell off. If you are considering a particular area in southern Spain, or see a property you like, you can ask for feedback from members of the Spain forum.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Lynn R said:


> We once went on holiday to Florida in December and they had snow for the first time in donkey's years (just my luck!). We'd only taken warm weather clothes and felt freezing, had to go out and buy sweaters.
> 
> The same thing happened to me in Tunisia once in January, it snowed for the first time in 40 years and lots of the local people were outside watching it in wonderment.


Happened to us once. Left a fairly mild Heathrow for Miami in Jan and felt colder when we landed. I bought a hoodie it said Key on left breast and West on the right:roll: fortunately only lasted a couple of days and was back to 27C. People were walking around looking shell shocked. Florida does usually get the warmer nights where you can eat out without a woolie. Canaries can be coolish. Stayed once and had to switch on the oven to warm up the place before going to bed. Coldest ever in Spain, Somosierra, next Ronda.


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## TVFH (Oct 29, 2017)

Many thanks to all of you who have responded to my original query....which contained the comment about 'Spain being a warmer climate than Britain'....I had done some research and do realise there are parts of Spain that get freezing weather and most places would need heating or a fire in winter.
It's not that important to us, as we have lived in places where there are extreme temperatures before and of course we are originally from the UK, so was used to the colder climate there.

I am really more interested in the way of life in Spain from an expats point of view. No specifics, just how you settled in, how does life compare with the UK, healthcare, cost of living, just general stuff really and more importantly, is it a good place to live? We are retirees who are considering coming back to Europe from Australia to be closer to family in the UK, but it's a big move and we would just appreciate a few friendly comments about the pros and cons. Perhaps we could start the conversation again and list maybe 5 pros and 5 cons? What do you love the most about Spain?

Many thanks,
TVFH


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## TVFH (Oct 29, 2017)

*Pros and cons*



Megsmum said:


> No I’m certainly not trying to put you off, but you mentioned weather and I couldn’t resist as trudged through the frosty grounds :roll: and many people think that we are all sun and heat, even mild heat and it’s simply not true.
> 
> Positives.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that descriptive post which was very informative and just what I'd hoped for. It's nice to get an overall view from an expats perspective and I appreciate your input.

Cheers,
TVFH


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

TVFH said:


> Many thanks to all of you who have responded to my original query....which contained the comment about 'Spain being a warmer climate than Britain'....I had done some research and do realise there are parts of Spain that get freezing weather and most places would need heating or a fire in winter.
> It's not that important to us, as we have lived in places where there are extreme temperatures before and of course we are originally from the UK, so was used to the colder climate there.
> 
> I am really more interested in the way of life in Spain from an expats point of view. No specifics, just how you settled in, how does life compare with the UK, healthcare, cost of living, just general stuff really and more importantly, is it a good place to live? We are retirees who are considering coming back to Europe from Australia to be closer to family in the UK, but it's a big move and we would just appreciate a few friendly comments about the pros and cons. Perhaps we could start the conversation again and list maybe 5 pros and 5 cons? What do you love the most about Spain?
> ...


You could also do a search for health care for example - there are hundreds of threads, or for the name of a place you are considering to see what has already been written.
It's a good idea to open a thread, if your questions haven't already been answered, for each new question as it comes up.
Here are some pros and cons threads to get you started and don't forget the FAQs
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/343370-pros-cons-costa-de-la-luz.html

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...ante-anyone-there-who-can-give-pros-cons.html

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...ain/712706-urbanisations-whats-pros-cons.html


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## TVFH (Oct 29, 2017)

Pesky Wesky said:


> You could also do a search for health care for example - there are hundreds of threads, or for the name of a place you are considering to see what has already been written.
> It's a good idea to open a thread, if your questions haven't already been answered, for each new question as it comes up.
> Here are some pros and cons threads to get you started and don't forget the FAQs
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/343370-pros-cons-costa-de-la-luz.html
> ...


Hi Pesky Wesky,

I have already done quite a bit of research like that, on healthcare, prescriptions etc. getting residencia and the formalities/bureaucracy. What I am lacking is just how people feel about living in Spain compared to the UK/Australia. I did ask on one thread about areas which might suit retirees, with a fairly temperate climate, not too busy (like Benidorm) but with medical facilities, supermarkets and maybe a bigger town/city and airport maybe an hour away? 

I have a friend who stays in Puerto Banus so she has been helpful but would like to explore other towns/fishing villages further up the coast. I have seen Denia, Moraira and Althea mentioned so I guess the best thing would be to do a rekkie and see for myself. It's not that I can't be bothered researching, it's just there are so many topics, so it all takes time. Having people chip in with comments and tips is a good idea and gives you a better idea though. Spain is obviously not for everyone, but it's good to hear things from a personal perspective, and whether you actually love or loathe living there?

Not sure how I came to be on this thread to be honest....but thanks for your input.

Cheers,
TVFH


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

TVFH said:


> Hi Pesky Wesky,
> 
> I have already done quite a bit of research like that, on healthcare, prescriptions etc. getting residencia and the formalities/bureaucracy. What I am lacking is just how people feel about living in Spain compared to the UK/Australia. I did ask on one thread about areas which might suit retirees, with a fairly temperate climate, not too busy (like Benidorm) but with medical facilities, supermarkets and maybe a bigger town/city and airport maybe an hour away?
> 
> ...


Most people on the forum love it, but for all different reasons because we are all different ages and living in different regions. I live in the Comunidad de Madrid and work ie not retiring age yet. Been here for 30 years and still like it better than the UK


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

What do I like most and least about living where I do (a large provincial town 35km East of Málaga, 40 minutes from Málaga airport by car)?

Likes
Friendly people
Good weather (most of the time!)
Busy(ish) all year round and not affected by seasonal tourism, but only 5km from a very pleasant seaside resort (Torre del Mar)
Excellent (and very cheap) public transport links (I don't drive)
Personal safety (I can walk around alone late at night should I wish to without witnessing any violent or drunken behaviour and not feel threatened, pass groups of teens and just receive a friendly greeting)
Vibrant town centre with many independent shops 
Good public services and infrastructure (two health centres, one open 24/365 and the main regional hospital 10 minutes away with a frequent bus service to it, good public sports and leisure facilities)
Very reasonable prices for property and everything else (prices geared to the Spanish market rather than tourists or foreign residents)
Local customs and traditions still thriving


Dislikes
The bureaucracy can be irritating at times
The local Council sometimes make inexplicable (to me!) decisions on how to spend
funds and sometimes they don't seem to act in the town's best interests
Too much litter and irresponsible dog owners who don't pick up their pets' excrement
Too many people who stand around in groups on pavements or blocking the entrance to shops, or suddenly veer across pavements in front of other pedestrians, or walk 3 or 4 abreast so that no-one can pass them without stepping into the road
Inconsiderate car drivers parking on pavements, pedestrian crossings or next to dropped kerbs


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

What I like:

The weather.
The food.
The culture of life "outside".
The food.
The natural landscapes and wildlife.
The food.
The people (mostly)
The food.

What I dislike:
The red tape.
The working conditions.
The political situation.


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## TVFH (Oct 29, 2017)

*Pros and cons*



Lynn R said:


> What do I like most and least about living where I do (a large provincial town 35km East of Málaga, 40 minutes from Málaga airport by car)?
> 
> Likes
> Friendly people
> ...


Many thanks for your input Lynn....that's just what I wanted. It sounds a great place and one to check out. I will have a look on Google Earth....so give us a wave! :wave:

Cheers,
TVFH


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

TVFH said:


> Many thanks for your input Lynn....that's just what I wanted. It sounds a great place and one to check out. I will have a look on Google Earth....so give us a wave! :wave:
> 
> Cheers,
> TVFH



I will!:wave:

This is a handy website with lots of information about the area. It was set up (on a not for profit basis) by a young British couple who moved here.

http://mivelezmalaga.com/


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I have lived for ten years in a small rural town with few foreign immigrants or tourists.

Likes:
The people - generous, friendly, sociable and generally tolerant.
The food - easy access to good locally produced fruit and veg, free-range meats and amazing cheese.
The environment - spectacular scenery, wildlife (especially birds) and clean air.
The climate - apart from a couple of months in winter/summer when it's uncomfrrtably cold/hot, it's pretty good.
Cost of living - depending on your lifestyle you can live very cheaply, and most public entertainment is free.

Dislikes:
Cultural differences in the way animals are treated, e.g. bullfighting.
Lack of foresight -planning seems to be an alien cencept.
Corruption - still endemic in politics and business
Inefficency in some public services - excessive bureaucracy, databases that don't work properly etc.
Noisy bars and restaurants - partly because of the decor (tiled walls etc) and partly because people often talk excessively loudly.


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## TVFH (Oct 29, 2017)

Lynn R said:


> I will!:wave:
> 
> This is a handy website with lots of information about the area. It was set up (on a not for profit basis) by a young British couple who moved here.
> 
> http://mivelezmalaga.com/


That's great....thanks I will check it out. 

Cheers,
TVFH


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## TVFH (Oct 29, 2017)

Alcalaina said:


> I have lived for ten years in a small rural town with few foreign immigrants or tourists.
> 
> Likes:
> The people - generous, friendly, sociable and generally tolerant.
> ...


Another good informative post....thanks Alcalaina. This is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for and I will make a note of all these places and check them out when we come over. It's good to get an overview....much more helpful actually than taking each element specifically and I like the warts and all approach. How people feel about their environment, climate, and something about the towns and villages around and how they have settled is invaluable. I am getting a good picture. Thanks to everyone that has contributed. 

Cheers,
TVFH


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## Myhnabird (Apr 1, 2017)

Hello all,
Tis I, the OP. I haven't disappeared completely but only check in occasionally to keep my finger on the pulse...
I was delighted to see that this old post has been resurrected and that it is perhaps helping another (hi, TVHF :welcome
Also amused (horrified?) to read that temps in Spain were -4C the other day - it just happens to be -4C this morning in Edmonton, Alberta. Mind you, -4C is unseasonably warm for Edmonton in February. I can only hope that -4C is unseasonably cold for Spain...
I am in the midst of applying for Irish citizenship through my grandmother. Hubby doesn't seem too keen on living permanently in Europe but I am absolutely determined to keep my options open. We never know what the future holds.
Keep warm, all of you!
Fond regards,
Mary


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## TVFH (Oct 29, 2017)

*Dunroamin'?*



Myhnabird said:


> Hello all,
> Tis I, the OP. I haven't disappeared completely but only check in occasionally to keep my finger on the pulse...
> I was delighted to see that this old post has been resurrected and that it is perhaps helping another (hi, TVHF :welcome
> Also amused (horrified?) to read that temps in Spain were -4C the other day - it just happens to be -4C this morning in Edmonton, Alberta. Mind you, -4C is unseasonably warm for Edmonton in February. I can only hope that -4C is unseasonably cold for Spain...
> ...


Hello Mary,

I must apologise for hijacking your post, but when I first read it, I thought, that's us!
We were looking to move back to Europe and love travelling, but where to start?
Anyway....how did you get on? Have you been roaming since your original post or are you still packing up and thinking about it? 

Cheers,

TVFH


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## Myhnabird (Apr 1, 2017)

TVFH,
PM sent.
Mary


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