# Classroom sizes to rise by 20 percent as the education cuts are brought in



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Sorry about this, but here's another kick in the stomach for the good life in Spain. It was announced a few days ago. I thought it might go away if I ignored, but it hasn't
Classroom sizes to rise by 20 percent as the education cuts are brought in

_He said that more money or complements were not available, and if a teacher was off-sick for less than 10 days, the institute or school will have to absorb that cost. The use of ‘interino’ professors trying to break into the profession will be cut.
He also suggests that not all centres be obliged to offer all the modules in the Bachillerato._


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Sorry about this, but here's another kick in the stomach for the good life in Spain. It was announced a few days ago. I thought it might go away if I ignored, but it hasn't
> Classroom sizes to rise by 20 percent as the education cuts are brought in
> 
> _He said that more money or complements were not available, and if a teacher was off-sick for less than 10 days, the institute or school will have to absorb that cost. The use of ‘interino’ professors trying to break into the profession will be cut.
> He also suggests that not all centres be obliged to offer all the modules in the Bachillerato._


I saw this on the news, too 

& have to admit that I'm doing a bit of 'ignoring the bad news', too - but there comes a point when it won't go away -such as when the school your kids go to statrts making the cuts


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

A glimpse of the future:


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## country boy (Mar 10, 2010)

Dear Friends, it is very, very sad, but, times are hard and going to get even harder. This is the way it has to be and we must all make the most of it. A little "War Time Spirit" is what is needed people...not Whingeing which doesn't help at all!


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

There is no money available for books or transport at my grandsons school.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

country boy said:


> Dear Friends, it is very, very sad, but, times are hard and going to get even harder. This is the way it has to be and we must all make the most of it. A little "War Time Spirit" is what is needed people...not Whingeing which doesn't help at all!


Cuts to subsidies to the Catholic Church - 0%
Cuts to the royal household budget - 2%
Cuts to health and education - 17%

If that's not worth a little whinge I don't know what is.

La Iglesia católica no sufre recortes | Economía | EL PAÍS


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Cuts to subsidies to the Catholic Church - 0%
> Cuts to the royal household budget - 2%
> Cuts to health and education - 17%
> 
> ...


Education and health should be the very last budgets to be cut. 
If people are willing to support the Catholic or any other Church or indeed the Royal Family, so be it.
But I personally would begrudge any cent going to any Royal Family as I do in regard to my UK taxes and I see no justification for subsidising religion, especially one as wealthy as the Catholic Church.
Ultimately it's up to the people to decide but I often wonder how much information is made available in order for any such allocation choice to be meaningful.
As I said in another post we can and should whinge where justifiable but people as a whole have to take responsibility for their actions and many people borrowed and spent irresponsibly when times were, on the surface, good. We can't blame the governments for our actions.
There is a piece in the Daily Mail today about people who took out interest-only loans facing huge principle repayments they cannot now afford. One idiot was moaning about soured investments which mean he cannot afford to live in his grand house.
Strange how people are unwilling to pay tax on investment profits yet expect the taxpayer to help when 'assets' turn sour....


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## Burpy (Apr 10, 2012)

The last thing that the government should be cutting is the education budget. If Spain or other European countries are ever to drag themselves out of the quagmire it will be through placing itself at the cutting edge of the new technologies as India and China have done. This of course requires an educated populace. It is sadly typical of a right-wing government to overlook this as after all, who needs an educated waiter or gardener?

As Alcalaina noted, the church is not being squeezed in this budget. I think after 2000 years the church should be able to stand on its own two feet and pay its taxes like any other business.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

country boy said:


> Dear Friends, it is very, very sad, but, times are hard and going to get even harder. This is the way it has to be and we must all make the most of it. A little "War Time Spirit" is what is needed people...not Whingeing which doesn't help at all!


A litle "war time spirit" is useful - in war time. We are in twenty first century Spain and "war time" spirit, especially that of the last Spanish war, is totally out of place to my mind.
I think it would be more worrying if there was no whinging. Whinging is only complaining after all. If we weren't whinging we'd be accepting, and it's a very sorry state of affairs when you accept cuts in the basics of life just because.

I totally agree that cuts have to be made and cuts probably can be made in both the health service and education, but most people agree that cutting personnel is not the way to go about it. It would be nice not to cut anything in these areas, but the times of "fat cows" as the Spanish say are over and the "thin cows" are in the fields now so let's cut the school trips, the digital whiteboards, the computers and go back to teachers, black boards and chalk for everyone, but a teacher for every classroom, please


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Only two ferries a week and fewer flights for us. Now that will surely kill off what tourist industry there is.


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## dunmovin (Dec 19, 2008)

urmmm before we all get on our "high horses" about teacher to child ratio, today I saw roughly about 50 kids, in a school playground, being taught the basics of flamenco.... by one teacher. The kids were having fun, there was no bad behaviour.

The teacher then left them to themselves(she was watching all the time from inside the building)..... and without any prompting the kids continued to practice. All well behaved and helpfull when one didn' t get it right.

Some/most of the time, I think we(brits) have got it wrong


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

dunmovin said:


> urmmm before we all get on our "high horses" about teacher to child ratio, today I saw roughly about 50 kids, in a school playground, being taught the basics of flamenco.... by one teacher. The kids were having fun, there was no bad behaviour.
> 
> The teacher then left them to themselves(she was watching all the time from inside the building)..... and without any prompting the kids continued to practice. All well behaved and helpfull when one didn' t get it right.
> 
> Some/most of the time, I think we(brits) have got it wrong


I think high horses have little to do with it.
Teaching Flamenco outside (probably classed as a fun activity by most kids, and quite possibly a teacher having to put 2 classes together because they are short of teachers/ rooms and doing the best they can) is a little different to teaching present perfect continuous or the formula needed to calculate electromagnetic waves inside to a group of unresponsive teens.
It's just not comparable.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I regularly go into a class of 30 teenagers learning English. The teacher has to choose between helping the ones who are really keen (about half of them) or trying to engage the ones who couldn't give a damn. She doesn't have time to do both.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I regularly go into a class of 30 teenagers learning English. The teacher has to choose between helping the ones who are really keen (about half of them) or trying to engage the ones who couldn't give a damn. She doesn't have time to do both.



Which is of course the case in most schools in the UK.

It's currently fashionable to blame teachers and the curriculum for not 'engaging with pupils' interests'.
Since the normal, usual interests of teenagers are focused on pleasure and amusement, it's hard to see how this can be reconciled with the need to actually have to study and master sometimes difficult and tedious disciplines which are essential for the individual to function effectively in the modern world.
I also believe that it is important for young people to know something about the culture and history of the country in which they live and of the cultures and history of other nations and people.
Unfortunately this all requires self-discipline and the foregoing of immediate pleasure for the sake of achieving a future goal.
These are not fashionable characteristics in today's society. The custom of placing blame on institutions and that vague and nebulous construct, 'society', rather than looking towards individual responsibility and personal endeavour, doesn't exactly help.

Incidentally, I have taught classes of over forty teenagers in 'tough' schools, achieved some measure of success and have never allowed indiscipline. The secret imo is mutual respect, simple agreed rules of procedure, a sense of humour and a sense of proportion.
But I'm older now, times have changed and I accept that might not be so easy now.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Which is of course the case in most schools in the UK.
> 
> It's currently fashionable to blame teachers and the curriculum for not 'engaging with pupils' interests'.
> Since the normal, usual interests of teenagers are focused on pleasure and amusement, it's hard to see how this can be reconciled with the need to actually have to study and master sometimes difficult and tedious disciplines which are essential for the individual to function effectively in the modern world.
> ...


I think things *are* different now; I think commanding respect is more and more difficult with some age groups, some geographical areas, some sub cultures. That's not to say it's impossible, but why make a hard job harder? We can't all be gifted teachers. Most of us are just teachers, and smaller classes are easier to handle than bigger classes, even if we're just talking about how long does it take everyone to get through the door and sit down, let alone discipline and actually teaching the students something! In a larger class it takes longer and is more difficult.
I also think it's important to be open to change. If the students are changing, for good or for bad, and whoever is to blame, then the teaching should change. After all in a business if your product/ service isn't successful you react, don't you?
Anyway, getting back to topic - cuts yes, but think about it Rajoy, think about what's *really* going to benefit the nation


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think things *are* different now; I think commanding respect is more and more difficult with some age groups, some geographical areas, some sub cultures. That's not to say it's impossible, but why make a hard job harder? We can't all be gifted teachers. Most of us are just teachers, and smaller classes are easier to handle than bigger classes, even if we're just talking about how long does it take everyone to get through the door and sit down, let alone discipline and actually teaching the students something! In a larger class it takes longer and is more difficult.
> I also think it's important to be open to change. If the students are changing, for good or for bad, and whoever is to blame, then the teaching should change. After all in a business if your product/ service isn't successful you react, don't you?
> Anyway, getting back to topic - cuts yes, but think about it Rajoy, think about what's *really* going to benefit the nation



Is teaching a 'business', though? I don't see it as such. It is an essential tool for educating our young into the mores and functions of our society.

What happens in society definitely affects how education is conducted and how its content is perceived.....and you can't ignore change. But not all change is beneficial for either the individual or society. Adaption to change shouldn't be an automatic reflex...it should be carefully considered and evaluated.

In my decades in teaching I saw so many changes that in the last years I decided that if you stood still long enough the wheel of change would revolve back to you.
This was in fact the case.....

I think the problem in the UK was that in the 1960s middle-class academics and politicians, most of whom on left or right were privately educated, as were their own children, viewed education as an experiment in social engineering designed to bring about an 'egalitarian society'.

I know this to be the case from first-hand experience when the Labour-controlled London Borough we were Councillors on decided to implement a programme of comprehensivisation of its schools. I was 100% in favour then. Mea maxima culpa....

The results have sadly turned out to the detriment of the less well-off. Those who can afford to either educate their children privately (my son and dil) or use their wealth to buy a home in an affluent area with 'good' i.e, middle-class comprehensives (my ex-husband and wife).


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Is teaching a 'business', though? I don't see it as such. It is an essential tool for educating our young into the mores and functions of our society.
> 
> What happens in society definitely affects how education is conducted and how its content is perceived.....and you can't ignore change. But not all change is beneficial for either the individual or society. Adaption to change shouldn't be an automatic reflex...it should be carefully considered and evaluated.
> 
> ...


No perhaps it isn't a valid exercise to compare a school to a business, but the idea was that change happens and we have to recognise that. And, no, change isn't always for the best, but still it happens. 
There are the old favourites, discipline and technology. Discipline and technology are often referred to in black and white terms. Was discipline better "before"? Is technology "bad" for our children especially "socially"? I'm just thinking that it's not necessarily better or bad, it's just different and we maybe have to accept those differences from time to time.
I don't think change is bunging a few technological wonders in a classroom either. I think change, especially in Spain, should come about by means of training and investment in their teachers and staff.
What an old fashioned idea I've just come up with!!
Anyway, it ain't gonna happen, is it?


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## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

*Schools*

Along with the announcement concerning class sizes, the Minister for Education, José Igancio Wert, has also announced, that he wants to increase the numbers of hours a week that primary and secondary teachers will have to spend in the classroom, to *25* hours for infant and primary, and *20* for secondary.

He was presenting his draft paper for a royal decree to the regional governments, and explained the object of the measures is to save 3 billion €.

It makes you wonder how many hours teachers are currently doing??


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Calas felices said:


> Along with the announcement concerning class sizes, the Minister for Education, José Igancio Wert, has also announced, that he wants to increase the numbers of hours a week that primary and secondary teachers will have to spend in the classroom, to *25* hours for infant and primary, and *20* for secondary.
> 
> He was presenting his draft paper for a royal decree to the regional governments, and explained the object of the measures is to save 3 billion €.
> 
> It makes you wonder how many hours teachers are currently doing??


20 or 25 *CONTACT* hours is not the same as *WORKING* hours!!!

I teach privately & probably spend as many hours preparing for classes as I do actually teaching - & I teach a course I wrote myself a few years ago, so you wouldn't think I'd need much more prep.... but different students have different weaknesses/needs so I am constantly creating supplementary material

I don't have marking at all - but last year when I was tutoring IGCSE the marking often took longer than the actual teaching!

there have been various studies & recommendations are that over 20 hours classroom contact can be bad for a teacher's health


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Calas felices said:


> Along with the announcement concerning class sizes, the Minister for Education, José Igancio Wert, has also announced, that he wants to increase the numbers of hours a week that primary and secondary teachers will have to spend in the classroom, to *25* hours for infant and primary, and *20* for secondary.
> 
> He was presenting his draft paper for a royal decree to the regional governments, and explained the object of the measures is to save 3 billion €.
> 
> It makes you wonder how many hours teachers are currently doing??


This is the misreading of figures that is always common when talking about teachers. As Xabia has already pointed out, and that you yourself have written, these are hours that teachers will have to *spend in the classroom.* Preparation and marking is on top of that. Also Spanish teachers have to do a certain amount of training each year for which they are given credits.
Before anybody mentions it - no the teachers do not get the same holidays as the children, although it is true that they get more time then most other "ordinary" jobs


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

BTW - the cuts are not just going to affect classroom size. That's just the easiest thing that the media grabbed onto when the cuts were announced. As I predicted on another thread (but I don't remember which) university fees are to go up, possibly by 50%.
You read it here first, folks!
_University fees may go up as much as 50 percent as part of the government’s proposed cutbacks in education, sources said yesterday._
_Education Minister José Ignacio Wert met with representatives of Spain’s regional governments to discuss adjustments at all universities. At present, Spaniards pay between 900 to 1,000 euros a year in university fees, some 15 percent of the 6,000-euro average annual cost of a student’s education. Under the plan, student fees could jump to a maximum of 1,500 euros next September. The government will leave it to each region to determine how much students in their jurisdiction should have to pay._
I_n Spain, some 1.5 million students attend the country’s 79 universities, 29 of them privately run.

_Government plans 50-percent hike in students' university fees | In English | EL PAÍS


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## country boy (Mar 10, 2010)

cor!! Dun 'er go on! ( To be said in a Dorset Dialect!)


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

country boy said:


> cor!! Dun 'er go on! ( To be said in a Dorset Dialect!)


Ah...a Dorset dialect...How that brings back memories of my childhood and teen years....

I still have relatives in Blandford, Shaftesbury, Dorchester, Swanage, Weymouth...Never visit, though. Too painful as I know I can't afford to go and live there.

My family, especially my old Gran, spoke broad Dorset. So did I until I won a scholarship to a 'posh' school and was ridiculed for the way I spoke. I was forced to go to elocution lessons and until my early twenties had a very artificial 'cut glass' accent, somewhat akin to the early Margaret Thatcher. That soon got knocked out of me.

I sometimes think that schooling, very elitist and middle-class, gave me a sense of inferiority that manifested itself in my adoption of extreme left-wing views for many years of my life.

But I did get a GCE O Level Grade A in Ancient Greek....


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## country boy (Mar 10, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> But I did get a GCE O Level Grade A in Ancient Greek....


Show off!!!


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## country boy (Mar 10, 2010)

country boy said:


> Show off!!!


The smiley went missing....

:tongue::tongue::tongue:


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

country boy said:


> Show off!!!


Well, it's a rare achievement even if it's a useless one....
I also achieved a similar result in Latin...

But I have no qualifications of any kind, even the most elementary, in mathematics, physics, biology or any science.

Says a lot about whast was thought of as a 'good' education in those days.

And I've forgotten almost all of the Greek and a lot of the Latin.

I know how to swear obscenely in modern Greek because I taught young Greek Cypriot tearaways in North London and they in turn taught me many things.....


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

country boy said:


> cor!! Dun 'er go on! ( To be said in a Dorset Dialect!)


Well, 'erz a bit wurrid about 'er futcher, 'er 'uzband and 'er daughter.
To be said in a zummerzet accent oh arrrrrrrrrrr


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, 'erz a bit wurrid about 'er futcher, 'er 'uzband and 'er daughter.
> To be said in a zummerzet accent oh arrrrrrrrrrr


Ooh aarrr me babby!! Oi be vrum Portzed - ony a few moil frum ee!!


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## country boy (Mar 10, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, 'erz a bit wurrid about 'er futcher, 'er 'uzband and 'er daughter.
> To be said in a zummerzet accent oh arrrrrrrrrrr


Well don't ee worry maid...twill all be alright. God provides!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

country boy said:


> Well don't ee worry maid...twill all be alright. God provides!


Hmmm, being an atheist or, sometimes an agnostic, that _*is*_ a little worrying!


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