# Covid vaccine progress Spain



## Megsmum

Sorry not sure where to pos. For obvious reasons we are desperate for daughters and grandchildren to visit, and whilst the U.K. appears to be forging ahead with thier vaccination program,I’m struggling to find regional statistics for Spain, mainly because I’m very tired and can’t function properly. Any easy links would be greatly appreciated as would not knocking the EU etc just simple facts 

thank you in advance


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## Joppa

According to Vacunación COVID-19 Gobierno de España (vacunacovid.gob.es) , as of Friday, 768,950 people have been vaccinated, compared with over 3.2 million for UK.
In Andalucia, just under 140,000 and in Extremadura, 32,000.


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## Megsmum

Joppa said:


> According to Vacunación COVID-19 Gobierno de España (vacunacovid.gob.es) , as of Friday, 768,950 people have been vaccinated, compared with over 3.2 million for UK.


not very good then.... wonder how they’re comparing with rest of EU


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## xabiaxica

Let's not turn this into a comparison discussion eh?


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## Pesky Wesky

Yes, have to admit that the UK vaccine programme is absolutely powering ahead and Spain's is not, well much depends on where you live...
At the moment only 2% of the population has been vaccinated. I'm not sure if that means people have had the 2 injections necessary or not or have just received one and so are included in the vaccination programme. Here is an article that shows differences between comunidades, but have to admit I'm not sure what the figures really mean.
Vacunación en España | Datos y porcentajes de población vacunada de coronavirus por comunidades
A third vaccine, Janssen, will be approved soon in Spain and this is much awaited as you only need one dose. It won't actually be approved and ready for use here until the tail end of the vaccinating programme though.


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## Joppa

Megsmum said:


> not very good then.... wonder how they’re comparing with rest of EU


Spain is next only to Denmark and Italy in vaccine rollout in EU, followed by Baltic States, Germany, Central Europe. Near the bottom is France.


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## Megsmum

xabiaxica said:


> Let's not turn this into a comparison discussion eh?


Im not. its important to see how other countries are doing as this is not a Spanish/French or great British disease this is a global pandemic and every delay I one country causes issues for others 



Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, have to admit that the UK vaccine programme is absolutely powering ahead and Spain's is not, well much depends on where you live...
> At the moment only 2% of the population has been vaccinated. I'm not sure if that means people have had the 2 injections necessary or not or have just received one and so are included in the vaccination programme. Here is an article that shows differences between comunidades, but have to admit I'm not sure what the figures really mean.
> Vacunación en España | Datos y porcentajes de población vacunada de coronavirus por comunidades
> A third vaccine, Janssen, will be approved soon in Spain and this is much awaited as you only need one dose. It won't actually be approved and ready for use here until the tail end of the vaccinating programme though.


I agree. If the U.K. figures are to be believed and I have no reason not too, for the first time they’re ahead of the game. 



Joppa said:


> Spain is next only to Denmark and Italy in vaccine rollout in EU, followed by Baltic States, Germany, Central Europe. Near the bottom is France.


that’s good to Hear. I’m not sure what my prognosis is, I’d like to see my girls and grandchildren again which is why I’m asking the question.


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## Picky

The U.K. apear to be doing a good job looking at the news. Vaccination must be priority one if the world is going to end the lockdown / open up / lockdown again vicious cycling. Unless Spain goes up a few gears with its vaccination program, then we will still be locking down in another 12+ months time. It’s not looking promising for Spain or the EU currently, it would appear the failure to early purchase vaccines by the EU, coupled with Spanish delays to roll out what they have got are the causes of the issue? 
Assuming it’s possible to get to the U.K. does anyone know if expats can get a vaccination in the U.K.


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## kaipa

I suppose the main issue will be international travel. I fear that there will be two options come summer. One lift restrictions, if sufficient numbers are vaccinated, but keep borders closed or open borders but keep restrictions. If the virus can still be passed after vaccination I think all countries will maintain restrictions on travel but allow their own population to get back to work, study, etc. Last years opening of borders for Spain was seen as a huge mistake and New Zealand is being seen as an example we should all have followed.


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## Overandout

I can see that the "opportunity" being created by some of Spain's health authorities is that the vaccine is offered by private medical services.
The goverment hasn't authorised this yet and doesn't want to (the ideal situation for a socialist government is obviously that everyone gets the vaccine free of charge), but the slow progress is perhaps a factor which will make them change their mind.
People will also slowly become more and more desperate and prepared to pay for the vaccine as time goes on. We are already seeing how some peopel are using their contacts and positions to get to the top of the public vaccination lists.
A cynic may even think that the authorties who are being very slow to vaccinate are doing it as a leverage to pressure the government to allow the private sector to get in on the business... there's a lot of money to be made out of this, just like the private PCR tests (18€ cost, 120€ provate sales price....). Thankfully I'm not that cynical...


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## kaipa

Understand your thinking but I very much doubt Sanchez/ Inglesias will in anyway accept allowing certain sectors to have easier access to vaccinations than others. One reason is that enchufes are going to be a huge problem soon and that is going to be a big embarrassment. Already we have seen it in Madrid where in one care home they vaccinated staff, their families, acquaintances, the priest etc. Animal Farm is still alive and well!°


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## Overandout

kaipa said:


> Understand your thinking but I very much doubt Sanchez/ Inglesias will in anyway accept allowing certain sectors to have easier access to vaccinations than others. One reason is that enchufes are going to be a huge problem soon and that is going to be a big embarrassment. Already we have seen it in Madrid where in one care home they vaccinated staff, their families, acquaintances, the priest etc. Animal Farm is still alive and well!°


Sure, there are already many cases of people jumping the queue, but I personally would rather that they paid a private supplier than get a free one from the government by illicit means.
I am prepared to bet that as soon as the free jab has been issued to the pensioners and high risk members of the population, the "business" will be opened up to the competition and we will either be waiting until December, or longer, for the free one or paying 250€, or more, to get it before the summer....


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## kaipa

But Sanchez has already said that they intend to have everyone offered a vaccination by end of summer. Besides where will the private businesses acquire the vaccination? Cant see producers selling it to them when they have already signed up to produce billions for countries and the government wont sell their reserves ( if they have any)


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## Overandout

Sadly the roll-out of the vaccine is not in Sanchez' hands. Health care depends on the CAs and unless he decrees a state of emergency he can't centralise that. Sadly for us Madrileños, we cannot escape from Ayuso's control.....
And do you really think that Pfizer (or any other private Pharamco) woud refuse to sell to a private healthcar provider?


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## Lynn R

Overandout said:


> Sadly the roll-out of the vaccine is not in Sanchez' hands. Health care depends on the CAs and unless he decrees a state of emergency he can't centralise that. Sadly for us Madrileños, we cannot escape from Ayuso's control.....
> And do you really think that Pfizer (or any other private Pharamco) woud refuse to sell to a private healthcar provider?


But wasn't last year's flu vaccine unavailable in the private sector? I saw lots of complaints on various sites from people who had been unable to buy it at their local pharmacy, apparently because all doses had been bought by the public sector.

I do, however, remember seeing a press report a few days ago saying that Spain may make the Covid19 vaccine available to the private sector later in the year IF they have a surplus of doses. That seems unlikely at the moment especially after the unwelcome news last week that Pfizer will be cutting the number of doses to be delivered to several countries (Spain included) over the next few weeks as they are retooling their factory in Belgium to allow the number of doses they can produce there to be increased from March onwards.

Progress does seem very slow at the moment. However, they seem (in Andalucia at least) to have stuck to their promise to vaccinate care home residents and staff (plus front line health workers) first, and this week are starting to administer their second doses. As I understand it Sanidad has also dismissed the idea of leaving a gap of 12 weeks between the two jabs, as is being done in some countries, which will inevitably mean fewer people getting the first jab by a given date. But personally as the vaccine manufacturers (both Pfizer and Astra Zeneca) have said they have no evidence to prove that the vaccine is effective if doses are administered so far apart, I think that decision is the right one.


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## kaipa

Overandout said:


> Sadly the roll-out of the vaccine is not in Sanchez' hands. Health care depends on the CAs and unless he decrees a state of emergency he can't centralise that. Sadly for us Madrileños, we cannot escape from Ayuso's control.....
> And do you really think that Pfizer (or any other private Pharamco) woud refuse to sell to a private healthcar provider?


I very much doubt that individual orders from private healthcare companies would be in anyway attractive to the producers given they are making millions from existing orders from actual governments


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## kaipa

One thing to remember is that the UK is only giving one dose of the vaccine which of course allows the government to boast of having inoculated larger numbers in a short time. Spain has lower numbers because it has to organise a system to deliver it twice. The question is what will happen in UK if they find that by March the first set of extremely vulnerable persons start to lose immunity?. Britain could then actually find themselves in a horrific situation! The Tories are taking a huge gamble.


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## Overandout

My understanding is that Spain currently has, or is receiving, more doses than it can administer, i.e. the bottleneck is is in the health authorities, not the supply chain.

This plays nicely into the hands of those who might argue that diverting some of that supply to the private sector could "help to aleviate" that bottle neck (and of course line afew pockets in the process).

But yes, maybe I am too cycnical and maybe Sanchez will insist that everybody has the vaccine through the SS, but the Madrdi elite who can and would pay privately may start making a big noise about that when they realise that this year's trip to the beach is in danger.


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## Isobella

kaipa said:


> One thing to remember is that the UK is only giving one dose of the vaccine which of course allows the government to boast of having inoculated larger numbers in a short time. Spain has lower numbers because it has to organise a system to deliver it twice. The question is what will happen in UK if they find that by March the first set of extremely vulnerable persons start to lose immunity?. Britain could then actually find themselves in a horrific situation! The Tories are taking a huge gamble.


Until now most of the over80s in my area of West Sussex have been given both doses. Neighbour had first in December and second dose Jan 6th. Two weeks ago local health centres began vaccinating 75 yrs and over, they have been given appointments for second dose but it is longer than 3 weeks.
I am undecided about the delay in second dose. I suppose I would be happy to just get one initially on the basis anything is better than nothing and I have a date for the second one.


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## kaipa

I thought UK was stopping second vaccination.


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## Lynn R

Latest report:-









Spain begins administering second dose of Covid vaccine despite delivery cuts


The reduced shipment of the Pfizer-BioNTech treatment has raised concerns about whether the government will be able to reach its goal of having 70% of the population vaccinated by summer




english.elpais.com





I saw an earlier report in El Pais which said that the fact that a lot of regions hadn't admnistered a significant proportion of the doses they'd had delivered to them was because in those regions they had taken the decision to hold onto enough doses to give the second jab to those who had already received the first. Whether that's true or not I don't know. That report is here:-









Spain’s regions are now administering as many Covid vaccines in a day as they did the first week


Most territories have now reduced the number of doses that they are keeping back for the second round of shots, which will start being administered from January 18




english.elpais.com


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## Isobella

kaipa said:


> I thought UK was stopping second vaccination.


I think they are but decided to honour those who had appointments 3 weeks later. A friend who is 76 had the vaccine last week has been given an appointment for 6 weeks for second. Of course there is a lot of politicking, no shortage of those who want to knock UK. Time will tell. Some views here in the BMJ









Covid-19 vaccination: What’s the evidence for extending the dosing interval?


On 30 December the four UK chief medical officers announced that the second doses of the covid vaccines should be given towards the end of 12 weeks rather than in the previously recommended 3-4 weeks. Gareth Iacobucci and Elisabeth Mahase look at the questions this has raised In a letter sent...




www.bmj.com


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## timwip

Isobella said:


> I think they are but decided to honour those who had appointments 3 weeks later. A friend who is 76 had the vaccine last week has been given an appointment for 6 weeks for second. Of course there is a lot of politicking, no shortage of those who want to knock UK. Time will tell. Some views here in the BMJ
> 
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> Covid-19 vaccination: What’s the evidence for extending the dosing interval?
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> On 30 December the four UK chief medical officers announced that the second doses of the covid vaccines should be given towards the end of 12 weeks rather than in the previously recommended 3-4 weeks. Gareth Iacobucci and Elisabeth Mahase look at the questions this has raised In a letter sent...
> 
> 
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> www.bmj.com


Extending the time between the second dose is irresponsible. Here we have various vaccines that have been rushed to market. Although they were rushed to market, there were studies on the spacing of the vaccines and recommendations were made. Now they are altering those spacings because of political reasons.

If you have medication for a major illness and are supposed to take a pill twice per day, would you feel comfortable if the government told you that you only need to take one pill every other day??


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## Barriej

kaipa said:


> I thought UK was stopping second vaccination.


Nope, my father had his first injection 2 weeks ago and was told depending on his medical background the second injection would be either 3 weeks later or at a time specified but no longer than 9 weeks. 
He lives in Peterborough and the clinician said she was fed up with all the conflicting information about the vaccine even from so called experts (as its a new vaccine, how can there be experts). 
She and the clinic informed him that the vaccine had an 85% effective rate after the first dose, but that you could still catch and transfer the virus but it would be a mild strain like a cold.

This is what my dad said, might not be completely true but seeing as he has had the thing, Im more inclined to believe him than just some spokesperson.


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## Megsmum

MIL had first. Second cancelled. 
father had nothing

both 86 and shielding


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## kaipa

My mum 87 and nothing whilst local news says they are now contacting over 70s. Just shows how politicians work!!


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## The Skipper

kaipa said:


> I suppose the main issue will be international travel. I fear that there will be two options come summer. One lift restrictions, if sufficient numbers are vaccinated, but keep borders closed or open borders but keep restrictions. If the virus can still be passed after vaccination I think all countries will maintain restrictions on travel but allow their own population to get back to work, study, etc. Last years opening of borders for Spain was seen as a huge mistake and New Zealand is being seen as an example we should all have followed.


When comparing the performance of different countries in their management of Covid it should be remembered that the population of New Zealand is less than five million, spread over numerous islands, and the total land mass of the country is 10% greater than the UK (population 66 million). That makes dealing with a pandemic far less challenging!


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## jimenato

kaipa said:


> My mum 87 and nothing whilst local news says they are now contacting over 70s. Just shows how politicians work!!


I think there is a bit of postcode a lottery going on - understandably - it's a massive undertaking. 

We have two friends/family in their 70s who had their first vaccination a week ago yet the government is only today announcing appointment letters to under 80s. 

I guess some places with excess doses are using them in different ways from others maybe.

The UK government might have got an awful lot wrong but they appear to have got the vaccination program right.


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## Megsmum

jimenato said:


> I think there is a bit of postcode a lottery going on - understandably - it's a massive undertaking.
> 
> We have two friends/family in their 70s who had their first vaccination a week ago yet the government is only today announcing appointment letters to under 80s.
> 
> I guess some places with excess doses are using them in different ways from others maybe.
> 
> The UK government might have got an awful lot wrong but they appear to have got the vaccination program right.


totally agree.

Dad got a call today. My brother is taking him on Saturday. It’s an hours drive away. 4 million since end of December is a remarkable Achievement that most other countries would have only hope to aspire to.. 

I have colleagues who are injecting 100s everyday... that’s one place. I think the U.K. should be proud of that achievement 

my daughter and grandson are hoping to to come over in June , I just pray that’s possible, I think the U.K. will be ready, the EU and Spain I’m not so confident, but much can change quickly ,


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## Lynn R

The experience in Israel does not seem to bode well for the strategy of leaving a much longer gap between first and second doses of the vaccine than that recommended by the manufacturers, even if it does enable a larger number of people to receive the first dose more quickly.









Single Covid vaccine dose in Israel 'less effective than we thought'


Surge in infections dampens optimism over country’s advanced immunisation programme




www.theguardian.com


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## kaipa

I totally agree. I feel as usual the UK decision was taken with an eye on the headlines. Boris wants to be the best at everything and this was seen as a way to garner good press. It looks impressive as did Israel and now it looks like an error and one that could endanger people even more. Already UK pensioners are booking their summer flights clearly believing they are in the clear but Spain might have different ideas and keep borders closed.


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## Isobella

Read today that Madrid has run out of vaccines thanks to Brussels delay and wrangling. They have messed up their own purchases now they want to stop the UKs too. Imagine if it had been vice versa.









The EU is playing dirty in the vaccine wars


Having royally botched its vaccine programme, the EU is now threatening Brexit Britain’s supplies.




www.spiked-online.com


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## Pesky Wesky

Isobella said:


> Read today that Madrid has run out of vaccines thanks to Brussels delay and wrangling. They have messed up their own purchases now they want to stop the UKs too. Imagine if it had been vice versa.
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> The EU is playing dirty in the vaccine wars
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> Having royally botched its vaccine programme, the EU is now threatening Brexit Britain’s supplies.
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> www.spiked-online.com


The reports I have seen talk about the labs running out/ fuccking up, not the countries ordering system...


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## kaipa

Isobella said:


> Read today that Madrid has run out of vaccines thanks to Brussels delay and wrangling. They have messed up their own purchases now they want to stop the UKs too. Imagine if it had been vice versa.
> 
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> The EU is playing dirty in the vaccine wars
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> Having royally botched its vaccine programme, the EU is now threatening Brexit Britain’s supplies.
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> www.spiked-online.com


Madrid is simply playing a political game. Ayuso and co are doing everything to try and discredit Sanchez and have been constantly staging stupid acts like this. There has been a delay but that nothing to do with the government but everything to do with the production line.


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## Isobella

Similar happening with Moderna vaccine. America has first call and will not be available in Europe until March.


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## kaipa

Incidentally Madrid hasn't exactly run out. They are simply suspending the program. They have vaccines but are keeping them for second doses.

The real problem appears to be that AstraZeneca cant keep up a huge production rate and might be favouring those whose contracts were negotiated at higher prices such as UK. It seems a reasonable/ stupid decision which will no doubt be sorted in the coming days but it is bad when it comes to a competition.


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## Lynn R

Isobella said:


> Similar happening with Moderna vaccine. America has first call and will not be available in Europe until March.


Not true - Spain has already had the first delivery and more were scheduled weekly (although not in huge quantities).









Las primeras dosis de la vacuna de Moderna ya están en España


La llegada de la primera remesa al almacén central del Ministerio se ha adelantado a este lunes a las 8:00, Sanidad calculaba que sería al final de esta semana: ha sido una entrega de 35.700 dosis y serán 600.000 en total a lo largo de 6 semanas, en otros tres envíos




www.eldiario.es


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## Isobella

I read it in the Telegraph or Guardian this morning. Perhaps it just meant limited supplies. Also stated that the main problem was that the EU was swayed by France and Germany to put their faith in their countries drug companies. Now their vaccines have flopped Sanofi will begin bottling for the others.
Whatever it is a very unseemly row.


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## Alcalaina

The AZ vaccine has a long production process (two months?) and one of the batches produced in Europe didn't work properly, so they can't meet their contractual obligation to supply the EU with a certain number of doses by 31 March. Brussels are demanding that they use supplies destined for the UK to make up the shortfall. According to a report in a German newspaper, Britain is paying seven times as much as the EU ... make of that what you will.


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## Chopera

kaipa said:


> Incidentally Madrid hasn't exactly run out. They are simply suspending the program. They have vaccines but are keeping them for second doses.
> 
> The real problem appears to be that AstraZeneca cant keep up a huge production rate and might be favouring those whose contracts were negotiated at higher prices such as UK. It seems a reasonable/ stupid decision which will no doubt be sorted in the coming days but it is bad when it comes to a competition.


From what I've read AZ did everything to prevent a competition. Including setting up separate supply lines in each country to prevent countries from trying to divert each other's supplies. The reason the EU production is lower than the UK is because they were 3 months later in signing their contract, and are now 3 months behind in bring their production up to capacity. Also AZ aren't making a profit on this. Any price fluctuations are due to localised cost variations. i.e. AZ do not benefit from higher prices. You'd have thought this was something to be commended.


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## Isobella

Alcalaina said:


> The AZ vaccine has a long production process (two months?) and one of the batches produced in Europe didn't work properly, so they can't meet their contractual obligation to supply the EU with a certain number of doses by 31 March. Brussels are demanding that they use supplies destined for the UK to make up the shortfall. According to a report in a German newspaper, Britain is paying seven times as much as the EU ... make of that what you will.


Fake news, lot of it about. Think the UK put in a lot of money due to Oxford being involved in the development.


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## Chopera

Alcalaina said:


> The AZ vaccine has a long production process (two months?) and one of the batches produced in Europe didn't work properly, so they can't meet their contractual obligation to supply the EU with a certain number of doses by 31 March. Brussels are demanding that they use supplies destined for the UK to make up the shortfall. According to a report in a German newspaper, Britain is paying seven times as much as the EU ... make of that what you will.


AZ claim they have no obligation to provide a certain number of vaccines by any date. Obviously I haven't seen the contract, but I'd be very suprised if they had set any kind of deadline, given the product didn't even exist when they signed it.


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## Isobella

Don’t get all this wrangling, maybe to cover up the Commissions failure for the delay. They haven’t even passed the AZ one yet and have been doing their upmost to rubbish it for some weeks.
I have AZ shares Long before the virus and they have fallen recently, maybe due to their not for profit policy.


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## Overandout

Chopera said:


> AZ claim they have no obligation to provide a certain number of vaccines by any date. Obviously I haven't seen the contract, but I'd be very suprised if they had set any kind of deadline, given the product didn't even exist when they signed it.


By the same token, the EU apparently stumped up an adavnce payment to enable production. I haven't seen the contract either but I find it hard beleive that they would have put cash up front for no hard commitment on delivery quantities and timings.


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## kaipa

I agree that EU delayed agreement to haggle price down whereas the UK paid the full price so I admit that part of the problem is the EU. Whatever the case it makes sense to try and distribute based on models that will most effectively control worldwide the pandemic as opposed to countries. If the UK thinks that once its vaccinated then everyone can just pop over to France and Spain their annual holidays they might be a bit peeved to find that these countries remain closed to them.


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## Chopera

kaipa said:


> I agree that EU delayed agreement to haggle price down whereas the UK paid the full price so I admit that part of the problem is the EU. Whatever the case it makes sense to try and distribute based on models that will most effectively control worldwide the pandemic as opposed to countries. *If the UK thinks that once its vaccinated then everyone can just pop over to France and Spain their annual holidays they might be a bit peeved to find that these countries remain closed to them.*


I think most people in the UK are already booking staycations for next summer, prices have gone through the roof, they seem to know the score. However at least it looks like they'll be largely free of covid by then, and no longer dying in large numbers. I wish I could say the same for the EU.


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## blondebob

Chopera said:


> I think most people in the UK are already booking staycations for next summer, prices have gone through the roof, they seem to know the score. *However at least it looks like they'll be largely free of covid by then,* and no longer dying in large numbers. I wish I could say the same for the EU.


Wow, what a very bold statement.......based on what evidence exactly?


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## Overandout

blondebob said:


> Wow, what a very bold statement.......based on what evidence exactly?


Maybe the fact that the UK is one of the fastest countries in rolling out the vaccine?

11.25 dosis per 100 residents as opposed to Spain's 2.9....


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## Overandout

I remember saying that during lockdown I would rather be in Spain than UK as the lockdown was being applied to a stricter standard, and that was right. 
But now I would rather be in the vaccine queue in the UK than here....


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## kaipa

Chopera said:


> I think most people in the UK are already booking staycations for next summer, prices have gone through the roof, they seem to know the score. However at least it looks like they'll be largely free of covid by then, and no longer dying in large numbers. I wish I could say the same for the EU.



If you mean the UK will have eradicated the virus experts all agree that wont happen even if everyone is vaccinated. If you mean by " they" people then at the most it means they are less likely to become ill from it but Covid is still going to be around.


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## jimenato

Overandout said:


> I remember saying that during lockdown I would rather be in Spain than UK as the lockdown was being applied to a stricter standard, and that was right.
> But now I would rather be in the vaccine queue in the UK than here....


...also, from what I understand, 'lockdown' is now much more severe in the UK than in Spain - at least parts of Spain.

It seems to me that the UK has got its act together - albeit belatedly.


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## Chopera

blondebob said:


> Wow, what a very bold statement.......based on what evidence exactly?


Why is it a very bold statement? Anybody over 50 is due to be vaccinated by the end of April in the UK. Along with everyone under 50 with underlying health problems. Even if that deadline slips it's not outrageous to think that they'd be vaccinated by next summer. Of course there might be variants that are resistant, and maybe there won't be herd immunity, because maybe the vaccine doesn't prevent transmission, etc, etc. But you'd expect the death rate to be low enough for covid to no longer dominate people's lives.


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## Chopera

kaipa said:


> If you mean the UK will have eradicated the virus experts all agree that wont happen even if everyone is vaccinated. If you mean by " they" people then at the most it means they are less likely to become ill from it but Covid is still going to be around.


Oh I agree it will still be around, but it should be under control


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## kaipa

Chopera said:


> Why is it a very bold statement? Anybody over 50 is due to be vaccinated by the end of April in the UK. Along with everyone under 50 with underlying health problems. Even if that deadline slips it's not outrageous to think that they'd be vaccinated by next summer. Of course there might be variants that are resistant, and maybe there won't be herd immunity, because maybe the vaccine doesn't prevent transmission, etc, etc. But you'd expect the death rate to be low enough for covid to no longer dominate people's lives.


Maybe but the UK would still want to restrict international flights in case of infected persons arriving with new variants so the UK will still have to wait for everyone else to catch up.


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## kaipa

One thing is for sure we still have a long way to go before anyone is out of the woods. Lots of things could still happen that might alter the balance of the vaccination program. Remember the UK at present is basically not focusing on the strict roll out of the 2nd dose which means while they might be vaccinating in large numbers no one is sure how effective in the long run it is. It might work it might not. If it doesn't then the UK could have wasted alot of doses and find that a 4th wave arrives next autumn.


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## Isobella

Claimed that the Johnson & Johnson will soon be ready and only needs one dose.


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## blondebob

Chopera said:


> Oh I agree it will still be around, but it should be under control


But you didn't actually say that, in fact you said " *However at least it looks like they'll be largely free of covid by then," *which is why I said it was a bold statement


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## Chopera

kaipa said:


> Maybe but the UK would still want to restrict international flights in case of infected persons arriving with new variants so the UK will still have to wait for everyone else to catch up.


And while the UK waits for everyone to catch up, far fewer people in the UK will be dying of covid. I really struggle to understand how saving people's lives by getting them vaccinated as quickly as possible can in any way be seen as a bad thing.


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## Chopera

blondebob said:


> But you didn't actually say that, in fact you said " *However at least it looks like they'll be largely free of covid by then," *which is why I said it was a bold statement


OK it was ambiguous. I'll clarify by reiterating that I meant "free" in the sense of not having your life dominaated by it.


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## kaipa

So it looks like the EU is going to allow national regulators to block export of the pfizer/Biontech vaccine to UK if they cant get AZ to redirect supplies. Basically this sounds like the beginning of a trade war and is bloody stupid! UK could rely on its vaccine production but it would mean a longer vaccination period and EU would...well ..probably cock things up again. In other words despite all the warm chummy words nothing really changes and the ugly side of things emerges again. In the words of the song " Its gonna be a cruel cruel summer"


----------



## Isobella

kaipa said:


> One thing is for sure we still have a long way to go before anyone is out of the woods. Lots of things could still happen that might alter the balance of the vaccination program. Remember the UK at present is basically not focusing on the strict roll out of the 2nd dose which means while they might be vaccinating in large numbers no one is sure how effective in the long run it is. It might work it might not. If it doesn't then the UK could have wasted alot of doses and find that a 4th wave arrives next autumn.


Who knows if even the first will be any good either. Who knows if the UK is doing the right thing. This is what the CEO of Astra Zeneca said. Hope it works as they are starting 0n 65+ tomorrow at my Surgery. 

“I think the UK one-dose strategy is absolutely the right way to go, at least for our vaccine. I cannot comment about the Pfizer vaccine, whose studies are for a three-week interval. In our case, the trial we're talking about was conducted by Oxford University. We AZ are conducting the US trial, which we think is going to be ready very soon. Oxford University conducted the so-called Oxford trial in UK and Brazil, and we have data for patients who received the vaccine in one-month interval, 2 or 3 months interval. First of all, we believe that the efficacy of one dose is sufficient: 100 percent protection against severe disease and hospitalisation, and 71-73 percent of efficacy overall. The second dose is needed for long term protection. But you get a better efficiency if you get the 2nd dose later than earlier. We are going to do a study in the US and globally to use two-month dose interval to confirm that this is indeed the case, there are many reasons to believe it is the case with our vaccine.


----------



## timwip

The science behind all vaccines are not the same. I believe the RNA technology vaccines are superior, pfizer and moderna. BTW, RNA was first synthesized by an Asturian. He would be very happy today.


----------



## Alcalaina

Chopera said:


> AZ claim they have no obligation to provide a certain number of vaccines by any date. Obviously I haven't seen the contract, but I'd be very suprised if they had set any kind of deadline, given the product didn't even exist when they signed it.


Nobody’s seen the contract because AZ won’t publish it! But according to EU health person it stipulated delivery of a specific number of doses in the first quarter of 2021, by whatever supply chain (not just plants located in EU).

It should be approved for use In EU tomorrow, despite Germany saying it there isn’t enough data to prove its effectiveness for over-65s.


----------



## Chopera

Alcalaina said:


> Nobody’s seen the contract because AZ won’t publish it! But according to EU health person it stipulated delivery of a specific number of doses in the first quarter of 2021, by whatever supply chain (not just plants located in EU).
> 
> It should be approved for use In EU tomorrow, despite Germany saying it there isn’t enough data to prove its effectiveness for over-65s.


Was the contract confidential? If so then it would be understandable if they were reluctant to publish it. My understanding is the argument is over whether AZ promised to deliver a certain amount before a certain date, or whether they promised to make their "best effort" to do so.

It's worth remembering that a few days ago an article was published in Germany falsely claiming the AZ vaccine was only 8% effective in over 65s: The German Health Minister had to publically refute it. This is all sounding very political. Even so, if they aren't going to use the AZ vaccine in over 65s I can't see why they are that bothered about it being delayed. It sounds to me they are engineering an excuse to divert Pfizer production to the EU.


----------



## Overandout

Yes, the contract was confidential, the EU has challenged AZ to publish it to prove their claim that there was no fixed quantity and time linnne for deliveries.... but they have refused.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

The surprise, surely, would have been if everything had gone smoothly with the vaccines. There's no way politics, money, greed and one up man ship isn't going to enter in this scenario while the every day citizen goes about their business as best they can, hoping that they do enough to keep the virus at a distance from themselves and everyone around them.


----------



## Chopera

Novavax vaccine found to be 89% effective (including UK variant)









Covid-19: Novavax vaccine shows 89% efficacy in UK trials


The vaccine is the first to show in trials that it is effective against the UK variant of the virus.



www.bbc.com





UK has ordered 60 million doses, EU has ordered 200 million doses.

UK doses to be manufactured in UK. Not sure about the EU.


----------



## kaipa

Nicola S threatening to publish documents showing how much vaccine the UK has received. Let's hope no one is lying!


----------



## Isobella

kaipa said:


> Nicola S threatening to publish documents showing how much vaccine the UK has received. Let's hope no one is lying!


Trying to distract from the fact of the slow roll out of vaccinations when Scotland have supplies. Let’s hope she doesn’t have info’ on serious national security issues to threaten to reveal.


----------



## kaipa

Isobella said:


> Trying to distract from the fact of the slow roll out of vaccinations when Scotland have supplies. Let’s hope she doesn’t have info’ on serious national security issues to threaten to reveal.


Or maybe she is simply wanting to help the UK government with its insistence on total transparency which today's Sky News interview revealed to be not quite as transparent as they say!


----------



## Isobella

Chopera said:


> Novavax vaccine found to be 89% effective (including UK variant)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid-19: Novavax vaccine shows 89% efficacy in UK trials
> 
> 
> The vaccine is the first to show in trials that it is effective against the UK variant of the virus.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK has ordered 60 million doses, EU has ordered 200 million doses.
> 
> UK doses to be manufactured in UK. Not sure about the EU.


Probably take the EU 3 months to pass it!
Pfizer has reduced orders too.


----------



## kaipa

Isobella said:


> Probably take the EU 3 months to pass it!
> Pfizer has reduced orders too.


As opposed to the UK who seem willing to inject lucozade into its citizens arms if it means ramping up its vaccination figures!


----------



## Isobella

The Telegraph has a long review of a what the European papers say with photos of their front pages. Many are critical of Brussels.


----------



## Isobella

kaipa said:


> As opposed to the UK who seem willing to inject lucozade into its citizens arms if it means ramping up its vaccination figures!


Let’s not get into toxic sour grapes!


----------



## kaipa

Isobella said:


> The Telegraph has a long review of a what the European papers say with photos of their front pages. Many are critical of Brussels.


Well there's a surprise, a critical article about Brussels in The Telegraph!!


----------



## Isobella

kaipa said:


> Well there's a surprise, a critical article about Brussels in The Telegraph!!


The European front pages aren’t made up though.
Just a thought, India has been accused of stockpiling the vaccines, why doesn’t EU look into grabbing or interfering with their AZ contract.


----------



## kaipa

Isobella said:


> The European front pages aren’t made up though.
> Just a thought, India has been accused of stockpiling the vaccines, why doesn’t EU look into grabbing or interfering with their AZ contract.


Because until AZ allows the documentation to be publicly released no one knows how much vaccine each country holds. Seems a reasonable request unless you are UK where it believes it would be revealing sensitive security information such as the amount of cheese and onion crisps it has!


----------



## Alcalaina

Isobella said:


> The European front pages aren’t made up though.
> Just a thought, India has been accused of stockpiling the vaccines, why doesn’t EU look into grabbing or interfering with their AZ contract.


Possibly because
(a) the Torygraph has only selected headlines from anti-Brussels papers.
(b) India is using two vaccines both made in India. True, one of them has the AZ "master seed" but that has nothing to do with the European supply chain.

Shame Pfizer closed its massive UK plant in Kent a few years ago, or you'd be awash with home-made vaccine by now.


----------



## kaipa

I was laughing last night at La sexta's El Intermedio show where they making jokes about the Spanish wanting to be vaccinated with horchata and calimocho.


----------



## xabiaxica

I was discussing the vaccine with friends - by Skype since we're not allowed face to face meetings atm, & the rapid vaccination rate in the UK v the slow rate in Spain came up. 

We were saying that obviously the UK was vaccinating more than Spain, since atm they're not giving the second dose, whereas in Spain - or at least where I live - they're doing second doses to the first group before starting on the second. 

My daughter overheard & said that a friend of hers, a nurse, caught the virus after her first jab. Apparently, according to her friend, that isn't uncommon because some of the patients now presenting have had the first, but not yet the second, jab.


----------



## kaipa

xabiaxica said:


> I was discussing the vaccine with friends - by Skype since we're not allowed face to face meetings atm, & the rapid vaccination rate in the UK v the slow rate in Spain came up.
> 
> We were saying that obviously the UK was vaccinating more than Spain, since atm they're not giving the second dose, whereas in Spain - or at least where I live - they're doing second doses to the first group before starting on the second.
> 
> My daughter overheard & said that a friend of hers, a nurse, caught the virus after her first jab. Apparently, according to her friend, that isn't uncommon because some of the patients now presenting have had the first, but not yet the second, jab.


There are people who have been vaccinated that have fallen ill with the virus but that is obviously going to happen as it isn't 100% effective.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiaxica said:


> I was discussing the vaccine with friends - by Skype since we're not allowed face to face meetings atm, & the rapid vaccination rate in the UK v the slow rate in Spain came up.
> 
> We were saying that obviously the UK was vaccinating more than Spain, since atm they're not giving the second dose, whereas in Spain - or at least where I live - they're doing second doses to the first group before starting on the second.
> 
> My daughter overheard & said that a friend of hers, a nurse, caught the virus after her first jab. Apparently, according to her friend, that isn't uncommon because some of the patients now presenting have had the first, but not yet the second, jab.


The UK way of doing things, massive campaign, loads of 1st vaccinations and a longer than recommended gap before giving the second one (if at all) has been the cause of much comment. Is it a brilliant idea or is the government playing with the health of its population. Again?
I believe the bookies are taking bets because after all, it's a gamble, isn't it?


----------



## Chopera

AZ has now published the contract.


Pesky Wesky said:


> The UK way of doing things, massive campaign, loads of 1st vaccinations and a longer than recommended gap before giving the second one (if at all) has been the cause of much comment. Is it a brilliant idea or is the government playing with the health of its population. Again?
> I believe the bookies are taking bets because after all, it's a gamble, isn't it?


They have calculated that giving more people one dose to begin with will save more lives than giving fewer people two doses. It may turn out to be incorrect, but I think it is unfair to accuse them of gambling or playing with the health of the population.


----------



## Isobella

There will e lots of friends of friends coming out on social media with stories. We are having our "lucozade" this evening, the Pifzer one and have another appointment in 6 weeks time. I would have been as happy with the AZ though, if the CEO says *But you get a better efficiency if you get the 2nd dose later than earlier. *then it is good enough for me. The new one that is coming out soon only needs one dose. Manufactured in Scotland, maybe Sturgeon will keep it all ha ha. 

In the first stage many received 2 doses within 3 weeks. Think about half a million had 2 with a 3 week gap. My GP said that women are more likely to suffer side effects than men. I shall have a look on Facebook to see what the experts say


----------



## kaipa

Joking aside: it certainly must feel good to be getting something that will hopefully lower the chances of becoming seriously ill.


----------



## jimenato

kaipa said:


> There are people who have been vaccinated that have fallen ill with the virus but that is obviously going to happen as it isn't 100% effective.


Also...

It's not until three weeks after the vaccination that maximum effectivity is achieved.

Secondly, as is being emphasised constantly in the UK, the vaccines are known to reduce the severity of the disease but it is not know to what extent they curtail transmission of the virus.


----------



## Beach buddy

I heard on the news last night that Madrid’s supply of the vaccine had dried up, I wonder how many more areas are experiencing difficulties getting the vaccines that are needed.


----------



## Chopera

Brexit: EU introduces controls on vaccines to NI


Northern Ireland First Minister Arlene Foster describes the move as "an incredible act of hostility".



www.bbc.com





Have the EU just broken the Good Friday Agreement?


----------



## Megsmum

I think the EU have spectacularly failed and have now proven to all that voted Brexit they were right, not that I think they were, but the flames have now been fanned. I despair of politicians everywhere now. I’ve seen comments on here critical of the U.K., well I’d rather be in the U.K. on the vaccination trail now than waiting for the EU to get out of the station.. and I say that as a remainer and citizen of the EU. There is no glory in what has happened today, just more angst and anger


----------



## olivefarmer

Agree. EU slow out of the blocks ( not the first time) . Is it article 16 they have invoked/revoked that in effect puts a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland?
The funny thing is that if the UK gave the EU some millions of doses destined for UK citizens there would be no gratitude. There would however be yet more vitriol piled on Boris. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. 
I too despair of our politicians . They do manage to jump the queue though.


----------



## kaipa

I suppose if people feel disappointed with EU and Spain no one is stopping them from returning to UK where they can register themselves and receive a vaccination. If they wish to return then they would be entitled to do so. It just depends on the type of person you are.


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> I suppose if people feel disappointed with EU and Spain no one is stopping them from returning to UK where they can register themselves and receive a vaccination. If they wish to return then they would be entitled to do so. It just depends on the type of person you are.


what a terribly intellectual answer.. it’s perfectly possible to be critical of a country you live in without wanting return to another... I feel terribly disappointed with the EUs response and the lack of progress in Spain with the vaccine, I feel the U.K. i streaks ahead with the vaccine , and that’s plain to see , equally the U.K.a initial response to covid was woeful
So pkease clarify what you mean by

what type of person you are

what a pathetic response , what type of person are you to cast that Judgment on others? What type of person are you? . I like you, an entitled to my opinion and judgement on the situation as it is, in particular in my own situation. So yes, I live in Spain , I have no intention of returning but yes, I’d rather be waiting for a vaccine, which in my current position I would have already had, than being where we are now, I’d rather the sun was shining but it’s winter. Get a grip


----------



## Overandout

Chopera said:


> Brexit: EU introduces controls on vaccines to NI
> 
> 
> Northern Ireland First Minister Arlene Foster describes the move as "an incredible act of hostility".
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have the EU just broken the Good Friday Agreement?


To break an agreement, you have to have made it in the first place, and as the EU was not a party to it, it's difficult to agree with what you are saying.... but the role of the Republic of Ireland is a curious one. It will be interesting to see how they react. I would hope they will be a key reconciliatory figure in all this.


----------



## Chopera

On the same day the EU passes the AZ vaccine, Macron has come out and said it is close to ineffective


----------



## Chopera

Overandout said:


> To break an agreement, you have to have made it in the first place, and as the EU was not a party to it, it's difficult to agree with what you are saying.... but the role of the Republic of Ireland is a curious one. It will be interesting to see how they react. I would hope they will be a key reconciliatory figure in all this.


I'm not sure how the Good Friday agreement works given Ireland is a member if the EU, but I suspect you are right Anyway it seems the EU are using a thing called article 16 in the Brexit agreement to justify this. Apparently they didn't consult either the UK or Ireland beforehand.


----------



## Megsmum

The EU has now retracted that statement. Which is a good thing


----------



## olivefarmer

Chopera said:


> On the same day the EU passes the AZ vaccine, Macron has come out and said it is close to ineffective


Is that to hide his disappointment with the French vaccine results? We are in danger of nationalistic sentiment. Didn’t the Germans say the AZ vaccine wasn’t effective or so effective for the over 65’s presumably to bull up their Pfizer vaccine. The whole thing isn’t very grown up.


----------



## Chopera

EU in U-turn over move to control vaccine exports to Northern Ireland


European commission cites ‘error’ hours after proposal caused anger on both sides of Irish border




www.theguardian.com





EU U-turn on Irish border exports.


----------



## Chopera

Will be interesting to see what happens if Northern Ireland is vaccinated, and Ireland isn't.


----------



## Megsmum

Chopera said:


> Will be interesting to see what happens if Northern Ireland is vaccinated, and Ireland isn't.


why?

no different to U.K. being vaccinated and France/us/ Germany not.. Eire is in the EU and U.K. is not, therefore will either go it alone within their own healthcare system or follow European way, every EU country determines its own healthcare, hence differing regulations in each member state afaik. I’m not sure of your point.


----------



## Alcalaina

xabiaxica said:


> I was discussing the vaccine with friends - by Skype since we're not allowed face to face meetings atm, & the rapid vaccination rate in the UK v the slow rate in Spain came up.
> 
> We were saying that obviously the UK was vaccinating more than Spain, since atm they're not giving the second dose, whereas in Spain - or at least where I live - they're doing second doses to the first group before starting on the second.
> 
> My daughter overheard & said that a friend of hers, a nurse, caught the virus after her first jab. Apparently, according to her friend, that isn't uncommon because some of the patients now presenting have had the first, but not yet the second, jab.


The experts have said time and time again that the first jab is less than 50% effective in the first few days and people should continue to take strict precautions. This is pretty tough on nurses especially.

I'm glad they are sticking to the three-week schedule in Spain even though it means we'll have to wait longer.


----------



## Alcalaina

Beach buddy said:


> I heard on the news last night that Madrid’s supply of the vaccine had dried up, I wonder how many more areas are experiencing difficulties getting the vaccines that are needed.


Saw on the news that Andalucia is in pretty much the same situation. I'm sure there are more.


----------



## Alcalaina

Megsmum said:


> why?
> 
> no different to U.K. being vaccinated and France/us/ Germany not.. Eire is in the EU and U.K. is not, therefore will either go it alone within their own healthcare system or follow European way, every EU country determines its own healthcare, hence differing regulations in each member state afaik. I’m not sure of your point.


EU states can't order vaccines independently, they have to use what is procured by the EU centrally. This was agreed last year when Germany wanted to steam ahead and pre-order, but it was decided that this would be unfair on poorer member states. So yes, it's quite likely that Northern Ireland residents will get the jab before their neighbours in the ROI.


----------



## xabiaxica

The vaccination state of play up to yesterday

*VACCINATIONS up to 29/1/2021*

Doses distributed: 1,769,055 . 422,955 in the past 7 days


Doses given: 1,474,189. 83,33% of those distributed. 308,364 in the past 7 days


People who have had the second dose: 251,866. 17,09% of those vaccinated. 187,410 in the past 7 days


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiaxica said:


> The vaccination state of play up to yesterday
> 
> *VACCINATIONS up to 29/1/2021*
> 
> Doses distributed: 1,769,055 . 422,955 in the past 7 days
> 
> 
> Doses given: 1,474,189. 83,33% of those distributed. 308,364 in the past 7 days
> 
> 
> People who have had the second dose: 251,866. 17,09% of those vaccinated. 187,410 in the past 7 days
> 
> View attachment 98993
> View attachment 98994
> View attachment 98995


Wow, that's big!
I think it's from the ministerio de ??
Can you give the link?


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Wow, that's big!
> I think it's from the ministerio de ??
> Can you give the link?


It's an app on my phone

covid-vacuna.app


----------



## Chopera

Megsmum said:


> why?
> 
> no different to U.K. being vaccinated and France/us/ Germany not.. Eire is in the EU and U.K. is not, therefore will either go it alone within their own healthcare system or follow European way, every EU country determines its own healthcare, hence differing regulations in each member state afaik. I’m not sure of your point.


I was thinking more in terms of border restrictions between the UK and EU countries.


----------



## Isobella

Alcalaina said:


> EU states can't order vaccines independently, they have to use what is procured by the EU centrally. This was agreed last year when Germany wanted to steam ahead and pre-order, but it was decided that this would be unfair on poorer member states. So yes, it's quite likely that Northern Ireland residents will get the jab before their neighbours in the ROI.


Germany is reported to have ordered some on the side. Hungary has/is going to do the same. The root of the problem was that France and Germany were relying on it’s own national vaccines but they flopped. America has now reduced the amount of Moderna allocated to EU. Plus Brussels spending 3 months prevaricating. 
The raiding of AZ in Belgium sounds like a throw back to the 39s.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiaxica said:


> It's an app on my phone
> 
> covid-vacuna.app


Is it one for your area? Is it one that tracks you and can tell you if you've been in contact with someone with Covid?
I can only find ones that talk about a certain area or trackers if I search for those words...


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Is it one for your area? Is it one that tracks you and can tell you if you've been in contact with someone with Covid?
> I can only find ones that talk about a certain area or trackers if I search for those words...


No - it's national. I have a different one for local covid info. 

The tracker app is RadarCovid. 

Try putting covid-vacuna-app in the general search rather than in the app search.


----------



## timwip

xabiaxica said:


> The vaccination state of play up to yesterday
> 
> *VACCINATIONS up to 29/1/2021*
> 
> Doses distributed: 1,769,055 . 422,955 in the past 7 days
> 
> 
> Doses given: 1,474,189. 83,33% of those distributed. 308,364 in the past 7 days
> 
> 
> People who have had the second dose: 251,866. 17,09% of those vaccinated. 187,410 in the past 7 days
> 
> View attachment 98993
> View attachment 98994
> View attachment 98995


The local paper this morning says Spain has administrered 1,474,189 dosis with 83.3% of the delivered doses administered 1,474,189 divided by .833 equals 1,757'078 which pretty much jives with your app. Newspaper source is Ministerio de Salud.

They also have it broken down by community. Madrid has administered a below average 78.8%. As a result, it appears incorrect that the Madrid supply has "dried up" as one poster has said.


----------



## kaipa

Isobella said:


> Germany is reported to have ordered some on the side. Hungary has/is going to do the same. The root of the problem was that France and Germany were relying on it’s own national vaccines but they flopped. America has now reduced the amount of Moderna allocated to EU. Plus Brussels spending 3 months prevaricating.
> The raiding of AZ in Belgium sounds like a throw back to the 39s.


I suppose to be fair everyone is going to fight hard to try and make their citizens safe. Countries are desperate and of course those poorer ones have none of the clout that EU, USA ,UK have. It's TRUE that UK has done well so far with vaccinations but it's far from over and it's not a certain that other issues may emerge which might suggest EU caution was in hindsight not a bad thing. Who knows? How was your vaccination experience yesterday Isabella? Any side effects?


----------



## Chopera

Isobella said:


> Germany is reported to have ordered some on the side. Hungary has/is going to do the same. *The root of the problem was that France and Germany were relying on it’s own national vaccines but they flopped*. America has now reduced the amount of Moderna allocated to EU. Plus Brussels spending 3 months prevaricating.
> The raiding of AZ in Belgium sounds like a throw back to the 39s.


My understanding is last June France, Germany, The Netherlands and a few others had got together to buy 
vaccines for themselves and the rest of the EU, and had the contracts drawn up with companies from various countries (not just their own). Then the EU came in and said they'd do it, wasted time trying to negotiate the price (even with AZ, who were doing it at cost) and then at the end of August signed contracts that were pretty much identical to the previous ones that had been drawn up in June. It has been suggested that France put pressue on the EU to order Sanofi (French) vaccines even though it was known they were maybe a year behind in development. It sounds like Sanofi might now have given up on their vaccine and are going to help produce the Pfizer one instead.


----------



## Megsmum

xabiaxica said:


> The vaccination state of play up to yesterday
> 
> *VACCINATIONS up to 29/1/2021*
> 
> Doses distributed: 1,769,055 . 422,955 in the past 7 days
> 
> 
> Doses given: 1,474,189. 83,33% of those distributed. 308,364 in the past 7 days
> 
> 
> People who have had the second dose: 251,866. 17,09% of those vaccinated. 187,410 in the past 7 days
> 
> View attachment 98993
> View attachment 98994
> View attachment 98995


Very encouraging


----------



## Pesky Wesky

All sounds like a media frenzy ( or forum frenzy!) with bits of info cobbled together, finger pointing and a fair dose of speculation...
Like I said before, the surprise would have been if there weren't problems along the way...


----------



## Megsmum

Alcalaina said:


> EU states can't order vaccines independently, they have to use what is procured by the EU centrally. This was agreed last year when Germany wanted to steam ahead and pre-order, but it was decided that this would be unfair on poorer member states. So yes, it's quite likely that Northern Ireland residents will get the jab before their neighbours in the ROI.


obviously as N,Ireland is the United Kingdom so will be included in the U.K. vaccine programme which is storming ahead

Hungary has ordered a separate vaccine? Do you think it would have been better to centralise or be independent with the vaccine. Personally I have mixed thoughts, don’t want poorer countries to be disadvantaged. I wonder how long it’s going to take to get Europe vaccinated. Even though the U.K. is way ahead, for those wanting to travel, whilst safe at home , won’t make much difference if European destinations are still covid hotspots the vaccine prevents Severity and as I understand reduces spread.. but it’s such early days for efficacy etc..


----------



## Megsmum

Pesky Wesky said:


> All sounds like a media frenzy ( or forum frenzy!) with bits of info cobbled together, finger pointing and a fair dose of speculation...
> Like I said before, the surprise would have been if there weren't problems along the way...


Global pandemic needing global supplies to rich and poor... always going to be issues along the way


----------



## kaipa

It seems reasonable to expect travel restrictions to now remain in place between UK and Europe until both countries have vaccinated their citizens. So my guess is it wont be until end of summer.


----------



## Isobella

Megsmum said:


> Global pandemic needing global supplies to rich and poor... always going to be issues along the way


Yes but I don’t think anyone saw it coming. The WHO has criticised the EUs export ban and says it will affect around 100 countries although poorer countries are exempt. 


kaipa said:


> It seems reasonable to expect travel restrictions to now remain in place between UK and Europe until both countries have vaccinated their citizens. So my guess is it wont be until end of summer.


Agree, not expecting to holiday in Europe this year. Have 2 flight vouchers for cancelled flights to France and Spain but will look elsewhere but that may not be possible either.


----------



## Megsmum

Sadly I think you are right. I'm hoping my cancer will at least abate by then so I can see family. It's not all about holidays etc.


----------



## Isobella

Megsmum said:


> Sadly I think you are right. I'm hoping my cancer will at least abate by then so I can see family. It's not all about holidays etc.


I was speaking to a guy in the vaccine line yesterday who said his wife is from Mauritius and went to visit family in August and she is stuck there.


----------



## olivefarmer

Good article here on why our vaccination is taking so long

https://www.euronews.com/2021/01/29/why-has-the-eu-s-coronavirus-vaccine-rollout-been-so-slow


----------



## Pesky Wesky

"UK and EU agree to "Reset" after vaccine fiasco"
Headline from the Guardian, but not much news at the moment


----------



## Megsmum

Pesky Wesky said:


> "UK and EU agree to "Reset" after vaccine fiasco"
> Headline from the Guardian, but not much news at the moment


yes. It’s been reported . I’m glad. We don’t need this angst as well as pandemic issues


----------



## olivefarmer

Pesky Wesky said:


> "UK and EU agree to "Reset" after vaccine fiasco"
> Headline from the Guardian, but not much news at the moment


Put simply the Commission are sorry. Supplies to UK continue. Meanwhile we get the dregs. They tried to be tough and decisive and were neither. Doesn’t inspire.


----------



## Isobella

One newspaper said Andalucia has excelled at vaccinations. Think it was Diario sur.


----------



## Chopera

I'm fairly confident the Spanish health service can do a good job at rolling out the vaccine(s). It's getting hold of it in the first place, and then getting it past the local politicians that concerns me.


----------



## Isobella

Isobella said:


> One newspaper said Andalucia has excelled at vaccinations. Think it was Diario sur.


here it is. Maybe like UK a bit of a postcode lottery. They have started to do couples at my surgery which has led to some tutting as some older ones at other surgeries feel overlooked. OH is 72 and I got mine in my 60s. No side effects, a friend’s Son in his 40s was quite off for a couple of days (he is a first responder) had flu like symptoms and large swelling. He lives in the Midlands.









Vacunación en Andalucía: La Junta afirma que uno de cada cuatro españoles inmunizado es andaluz


Bendodo destaca que 77.764 andaluces ya han recibido ambas dosis




www.diariosur.es


----------



## Barriej

I decided to see how ling it might take for them to get round to me.









Calculadora del Turno de Vacunación en España


La Calculadora del Turno de Vacunación para España estima tu posición en la cola para recibir tu vacuna contra el COVID-19 basada en tu trabajo y edad de acuerdo con el calendario de vacunación del gobierno español y la tasa de vacunación actual.




www.omnicalculator.com





You can try it here if you want. In the 'where you live' click and put your community in.

At the Spanish Governments published expected rate my first dose should be between June 2021 and March 2022.

At the bottom was this, which I thought amusing.

Disclaimer: As the national vaccination plan is implemented, it is to be expected that the vaccination rate will change. The results are based on the government's estimate of administering around 1,513,890 doses each week in Spain.
The current vaccination rate is around 298,291 doses per week in Spain.
*The current vaccination rate is around 8279 doses per week in the Valencian Community. 
I have between 1,466,290 and 3,244,814 people in front of me.  *


----------



## Alcalaina

Isobella said:


> One newspaper said Andalucia has excelled at vaccinations. Think it was Diario sur.


Yes, they have done a good job compared with some other regions but have now used up all their supply, apart from what they are holding back for second doses. And the overall percentage of people vaccinated so far is very small compared to the UK (less than 300,000 out of a population of 8 million).


----------



## Alcalaina

Barriej said:


> I decided to see how ling it might take for them to get round to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Calculadora del Turno de Vacunación en España
> 
> 
> La Calculadora del Turno de Vacunación para España estima tu posición en la cola para recibir tu vacuna contra el COVID-19 basada en tu trabajo y edad de acuerdo con el calendario de vacunación del gobierno español y la tasa de vacunación actual.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.omnicalculator.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can try it here if you want. In the 'where you live' click and put your community in.
> 
> At the Spanish Governments published expected rate my first dose should be between June 2021 and March 2022.


Great, I should get mine between 1 March and 31 May ... let's hope the supplies start rolling in!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Barriej said:


> I decided to see how ling it might take for them to get round to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Calculadora del Turno de Vacunación en España
> 
> 
> La Calculadora del Turno de Vacunación para España estima tu posición en la cola para recibir tu vacuna contra el COVID-19 basada en tu trabajo y edad de acuerdo con el calendario de vacunación del gobierno español y la tasa de vacunación actual.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.omnicalculator.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can try it here if you want. In the 'where you live' click and put your community in.
> 
> At the Spanish Governments published expected rate my first dose should be between June 2021 and March 2022.
> 
> At the bottom was this, which I thought amusing.
> 
> Disclaimer: As the national vaccination plan is implemented, it is to be expected that the vaccination rate will change. The results are based on the government's estimate of administering around 1,513,890 doses each week in Spain.
> The current vaccination rate is around 298,291 doses per week in Spain.
> *The current vaccination rate is around 8279 doses per week in the Valencian Community.
> I have between 1,466,290 and 3,244,814 people in front of me. *


My result reads
deberías recibir tu _primera dosis_ de la vacuna entre *1/6/2021* y *1/3/2022*.So any time within those 9 months.... Not really giving a lot of info, is it?
I don't expect to get vaccinated before the summer, but hope it will be before next Christmas. There should be a Spanish vaccine out by the end of the summer so hopefully that will speed things along


----------



## kaipa

Just saw Sky news where they seemed to be reporting a UK study suggesting that they think vaccine does not impede transmission and that restrictions would need to be in place for at least another year in order to get R factor below 1!! I just saw the end of it so I might have missed something but it appeared to be pretty grim news.


----------



## olivefarmer

AZ to produce 9 million more doses for Europe. Good news


----------



## Isobella

olivefarmer said:


> AZ to produce 9 million more doses for Europe. Good news


Wonder if they came out of another countries order or they have just upped their game.


----------



## Lynn R

Some slightly more encouraging news (from today's Guardian live feed):-

"BioNTech and Pfizer said on Monday they will increase their coronavirus vaccine deliveries to the European Union, pledging to send up to 75m extra doses to the bloc in the spring.
“Pfizer and BioNTech continue to work toward increased deliveries beginning the week of February 15, ensuring we will supply the full quantity of vaccine doses in the first quarter we contractually committed to and up to an additional 75m doses to the European Union in the second quarter,” they said in a statement reported by AFP.
The EU has ordered a total of 600m doses.
The statement came hours ahead of a national conference called by the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, with vaccine manufacturers amid growing anger over the bloc’s sluggish inoculation campaign.
BioNTech and Pfizer, which will take part in the meeting, said that improvements in their production capabilities would allow them to speed up supplies.
These included the completion of modifications at Pfizer’s plant in Puurs, Belgium. “Now, we are back to the original schedule of vaccine dose deliveries,” they said.
In the face of a political firestorm – and after the EU reversed its decision to use an emergency Brexit provision to control vaccine exports via Northern Ireland – the European commission chief, Ursula von der Leyen, said on Sunday that AstraZeneca had agreed to increase its coronavirus vaccine deliveries to the EU by 30 percent.
An EU source said the first deliveries would start in the second week of February."

And a quite informative article from El Pais about the vaccination schedule and timelines for deliveries of vaccines:-









How are delays in vaccine deliveries really affecting Spain’s campaign?


The incidents that have been seen so far with Covid-19 inoculations have not significantly affected the plans in this first quarter. The key time for reaching the target of 70% of the population will be spring




english.elpais.com


----------



## Isobella

70% of the population by spring sounds ambitious. Don't think any country is aiming that high?


----------



## Lynn R

I don't think they said 70% of the population by spring - everything I've read about the programme in Spain says their aim is 70% by the end of the summer. You probably didn't read the whole article - what is meant is that the amount of doses received and vaccinations done in spring will be crucial to achieving that target by the end of the summer.


----------



## blondebob

Lynn R said:


> I don't think they said 70% of the population by spring - everything I've read about the programme in Spain says their aim is 70% by the end of the summer. You probably didn't read the whole article - what is meant is that the amount of doses received and vaccinations done in spring will be crucial to achieving that target by the end of the summer.


Says Spring here 









How are delays in vaccine deliveries really affecting Spain’s campaign?


The incidents that have been seen so far with Covid-19 inoculations have not significantly affected the plans in this first quarter. The key time for reaching the target of 70% of the population will be spring




english.elpais.com


----------



## Barriej

Isobella said:


> 70% of the population by spring sounds ambitious. Don't think any country is aiming that high?


Thats highly unlikely even if most countries could ramp up the vaccination that much. 

This is a graph showing wordwide vaccination (how correct it is I can't guarentee) but it does show the progress. 









COVID-19 vaccine doses administered


Total number of vaccination doses administered. This is counted as a single dose, and may not equal the total number of people vaccinated, depending on the specific dose regime (e.g. people receive multiple doses).




ourworldindata.org





I had thought (heard, read) somewhere that only 30% of the population needs to be done before relaxing the restrictions can take place.

Also just for fun and to show how the transfer of the virus works (or don't) 
My sons girlfriends mother has Covid (she works in a nursing home in the Uk) both of her daughters have Covid, by transfer from the mother. However my son who spends as much time as the daughters with her does not. (they all live in different houses)
So thats 3 positive tests (the mother is ill in bed, the youngest daughter has 'flu like symptoms', my sons girlfriend is ill in bed. 
He however has nothing (and has had 3 negative tests over the last 2 weeks). Does this make him immune or a carrier? No one has asked him or offered a test to see. 
He is isolating just in case, but he was told to go back to work if he was Ok after 7 days.


----------



## Lynn R

blondebob said:


> Says Spring here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How are delays in vaccine deliveries really affecting Spain’s campaign?
> 
> 
> The incidents that have been seen so far with Covid-19 inoculations have not significantly affected the plans in this first quarter. The key time for reaching the target of 70% of the population will be spring
> 
> 
> 
> 
> english.elpais.com


It says the key time for reaching the target will be spring. It also says, later on in the article:-

*How many vaccines will arrive in the second quarter?*
This is not yet known, and this is the crux of the issue. This figure, and the capacity of Spain’s regions to administer these vaccines in a timely fashion, will determine whether the country is able to vaccinate 70% of the population by the summer, as the government has proposed.

As I said, their being able to reach that target depends on what progress they are able to make in the spring. 70% of the population by the end of the summer is the Government's target, as has been published many times.









Pedro Sánchez defiende el proceso de vacunación y confía que llegará al 70% de la población en verano


El presidente del Gobierno asegura que el reparto de dosis ha sido "equitativo y minucioso" y sostiene que hasta el jueves se han puesto ya "el 82%" de las recibidas




www.eldiario.es


----------



## kaipa

Lynn is right. You have to read the article. Its 70% by end of summer


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## blondebob

kaipa said:


> Lynn is right. You have to read the article. Its 70% by end of summer


Headline quite clearly says Spring which was what Isobella was referring to in her post "Spring"

*"The incidents that have been seen so far with Covid-19 inoculations have not significantly affected the plans in this first quarter. The key time for reaching the target of 70% of the population will be spring"*


----------



## kaipa

*What will need to be done to have vaccinated 70% of the population by the summer?*
If 4.6 million people are vaccinated in the first quarter – the total of all of those planned using the Pfizer, Moderna and the worst-case scenario with the AstraZeneca vaccine – 28 million people will need to be immunized to reach 70% of the population. The second and third quarters of the year account for 26 weeks, meaning that more than 2.1 million injections a week will be needed. This figure will come down should the one-dose Janssen vaccine be available. Whatever the case, the current rhythm of the campaign will have to increase


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## blondebob

SMH


----------



## timwip

The two most effective vaccines as well as the first ones to get approved in most of the world are the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. Both these vaccines are messenger RNA (ribonucleic acid) vaccines. In 1959, Severo Ochoa from Luarca, Asturias, Spain won the Nobel Prize for first synthesizing RNA. Over 25 years after his death, I think the world owes its gratitude to Dr. Ochoa for his contributions to science.


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## jimenato

It's confusing - perhaps poorly worded - but the point is that key things have to happen in the SPRING for the target of 70% to be reached in the SUMMER.


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## Isobella

Europa solo tiene aseguradas vacunas para el 22% de la población hasta verano


Los plazos de suministro de vacunas a los que se han comprometido las compañías farmacéuticas no garantizan que se pueda inmunizar a veinte millones de personas en




www.lavanguardia.com


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## Lynn R

More information about how and where vaccinations will take place for the over 80s in Andalucia. Mass vaccination centres will be set up (as well as health centres being used) and people will be contacted by telephone regarding their appointments. I guess that could be problematic for people who don't speak Spanish.









Andalucía hará vacunaciones masivas a mayores de 80 años en estadios y grandes superficies


David Moreno ha insistido en que se necesitan 350.000 dosis a la semana en Andalucía para tener inmunizada al 70% de la población este verano El escaso número de vacunas distribuidas frena el porcentaje de población vacunada David Moreno: "El 70% de vacunados del Covid-19 en España se logrará en...




www.malagahoy.es


----------



## kaipa

Lynn R said:


> More information about how and where vaccinations will take place for the over 80s in Andalucia. Mass vaccination centres will be set up (as well as health centres being used) and people will be contacted by telephone regarding their appointments. I guess that could be problematic for people who don't speak Spanish.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andalucía hará vacunaciones masivas a mayores de 80 años en estadios y grandes superficies
> 
> 
> David Moreno ha insistido en que se necesitan 350.000 dosis a la semana en Andalucía para tener inmunizada al 70% de la población este verano El escaso número de vacunas distribuidas frena el porcentaje de población vacunada David Moreno: "El 70% de vacunados del Covid-19 en España se logrará en...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.malagahoy.es


It is always going to be a bit problematic with the language thing as services are already under a lot of pressure without needing to find sufficient number of persons who can carry out things in Spanish and English. Where I live they sometimes drive around with messages in English.


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## kaipa

Sky news reporting that a UK study suggests that the Astrazeneca vaccine is not effective on over 80s until second dose is admistered. If true then it could have serious repercussions on the UK vaccination program , add in the news that the Kent variant ( rest of world calls British Covid) has mutated again and is similar to the more contagious south African one and it might be that the EU was justified in is cautious response


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## Isobella

Over 65s in West Sussex received a letter at the weekend from NHS with the code they can book an appointment at one of the larger hubs. the important paragraph is in 15 languages. GPs have been calling by telephone but I am sure some elderly may forget.


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## Isobella

kaipa said:


> Sky news reporting that a UK study suggests that the Astrazeneca vaccine is not effective on over 80s until second dose is admistered. If true then it could have serious repercussions on the UK vaccination program , add in the news that the Kent variant ( rest of world calls British Covid) has mutated again and is similar to the more contagious south African one and it might be that the EU was justified in is cautious response


Strange the smearing and sneering at AZ and UK policy for vaccines. All the drama from Brussels monitoring it's supplies then rubbishing it. Also the :variants: that is what Virus's do all the time. Just when things were easing off and perhaps ending lockdown Dr Death comes out with the South African one spreading. Imagine 27 countries (at least) are praying for the UK to fail. Don't tell me I shall need another vaccine in a few months ha ha.


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## kaipa

I dont think scientists are smearing anyone. It appears to be confirmed that the Kent variant has altered and that the new version is better( from the perspective of Mr Virus) than the previous at infecting people and possibly evading antibodies.


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## Isobella

I read a few comments in the newspaper, here is one. I agree. We could be getting vaccinated two or three times per year by 2023.

*All this 'New variant' news is designed to do is to scare us, keep us living in fear and keep us all under control. Case numbers are dropping dramatically as are the deaths so they are now going out to peoples houses who have absolutely no signs or symptoms to swab them! you couldn't make this up. Just open your eyes people this is never ending, the Kent strain, the south Africa strain, the Brasil strain and the next one and the next one. Life will never get back to normal yet the airports remain open for the elite to fly in and out as they please. *


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## kaipa

Well let's hope the writer of the article doesn't get the virus. It's always funny when deniers are made to look fools


----------



## timwip

Isobella said:


> I read a few comments in the newspaper, here is one. I agree. We could be getting vaccinated two or three times per year by 2023.
> 
> *All this 'New variant' news is designed to do is to scare us, keep us living in fear and keep us all under control. Case numbers are dropping dramatically as are the deaths so they are now going out to peoples houses who have absolutely no signs or symptoms to swab them! you couldn't make this up. Just open your eyes people this is never ending, the Kent strain, the south Africa strain, the Brasil strain and the next one and the next one. Life will never get back to normal yet the airports remain open for the elite to fly in and out as they please. *


This virus will not be eradicated. We will have on-going COVID shots much like the flu shots. Facemasks on airplanes will become the norm.


----------



## Lynn R

Both Sweden and Poland have announced today that they will not recommend the use of the Astra Zeneca vaccine for the over 65s (Germany and Austria had already come to the same decision). I don't know when Spain is due to make an announcement about this.


----------



## blondebob

kaipa said:


> Well let's hope the writer of the article doesn't get the virus. It's always funny when deniers are made to look fools


Deniers? What, you mean people who actually question what they are being told? 
"The first pandemic in world history where they need to test healthy people in order to find 'infections' (high levels of false positives) to add to the list of false positive covid 'cases'. CASEdemic. Now the Government will be knocking on your door in order to tell you that you are infected and to keep the feargoing."


----------



## Isobella

Lynn R said:


> Both Sweden and Poland have announced today that they will not recommend the use of the Astra Zeneca vaccine for the over 65s (Germany and Austria had already come to the same decision). I don't know when Spain is due to make an announcement about this.


Will that mean Brussels won't be trying to pinch the UKs.


----------



## Isobella

blondebob said:


> Deniers? What, you mean people who actually question what they are being told?
> "The first pandemic in world history where they need to test healthy people in order to find 'infections' (high levels of false positives) to add to the list of false positive covid 'cases'. CASEdemic. Now the Government will be knocking on your door in order to tell you that you are infected and to keep the feargoing."


Well said, different from deniers. Sad that people are so brainwashed that anyone having a different opinion are being wished to have Covid. What's happening to the world.


----------



## jimenato

blondebob said:


> Deniers? What, you mean people who actually question what they are being told?
> "The first pandemic in world history where they need to test healthy people in order to find 'infections' (high levels of false positives) to add to the list of false positive covid 'cases'. CASEdemic. Now the Government will be knocking on your door in order to tell you that you are infected and to keep the feargoing."


Yes - because Boris and his business orientated mates in government actually want the country to go bankrupt on their watch. It's the only reason they're doing this.😂


----------



## jimenato

Isobella said:


> I read a few comments in the newspaper, here is one. I agree. We could be getting vaccinated two or three times per year by 2023.
> 
> *All this 'New variant' news is designed to do is to scare us, keep us living in fear and keep us all under control. Case numbers are dropping dramatically as are the deaths so they are now going out to peoples houses who have absolutely no signs or symptoms to swab them! you couldn't make this up. Just open your eyes people this is never ending, the Kent strain, the south Africa strain, the Brasil strain and the next one and the next one. Life will never get back to normal yet the airports remain open for the elite to fly in and out as they please. *


So are these new variants not actually real? Or are they real but not newsworthy?


----------



## blondebob

jimenato said:


> Yes - because Boris and his business orientated mates in government actually want the country to go bankrupt on their watch. It's the only reason they're doing this.😂


If thats what you believe that is your right, it's your opinion of which you are entitled.


----------



## Overandout

jimenato said:


> Yes - because Boris and his business orientated mates in government actually want the country to go bankrupt on their watch. It's the only reason they're doing this.😂


Not just Boris and his mates either!
The Covid hoax is one of the game changers in world politics. It has been flawlessly executed by socialist and right wing governments alike, even military dictatorships have played along to perfection. Russia even faked one of the first vaccines, China played the lead role in the opening scene don't forget. It is a total and complete hoax which has succesfully united the world leaders in their uprising against the rest of the population. If I was a sceptic I'd even say that the chances of getting every leader and every doctor in the world to play along with it would be virtually impossible but the evidence is there in front of us. Thank god we have the "deniers" to set the record straight!


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## kaipa

Looks as if Spain will follow other countries and not administer the AZ vaccine to 65+ group.


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## kaipa

In fact with the Russian vaccine gaining more scientific approval one can see a propaganda war heating up in the UK tabloids over the next few weeks. So who would say no to Sputnik and yes to AZ? ( over 65 only!)


----------



## Isobella

kaipa said:


> In fact with the Russian vaccine gaining more scientific approval one can see a propaganda war heating up in the UK tabloids over the next few weeks. So who would say no to Sputnik and yes to AZ? ( over 65 only!)


Not saying much for these countries is it when their own EMA passed it. The Commission embarrassed itself when an unelected bureaucrat has the power to close borders on one of it's member countries and annoyed many countries by threatening their supplies too. All for a vaccine they are now desperately trying to smear. Let them buy Sputnik, will keep merkel happy. We had the Pfizer but would have happily had any.

*In contrast to Germany, and the false reports of 8% immunity for over 65s, the EMA has approved the Oxford vaccine for all age groups:
*
_*“There were not enough results in older participants (over 55 years old) to provide a figure for how well the vaccine will work in this group. However, protection is expected, given that an immune response is seen in this age group and based on experience with other vaccines; as there is reliable information on safety in this population, EMA’s scientific experts considered that the vaccine can be used in older adults.”*_


----------



## Lynn R

kaipa said:


> In fact with the Russian vaccine gaining more scientific approval one can see a propaganda war heating up in the UK tabloids over the next few weeks. So who would say no to Sputnik and yes to AZ? ( over 65 only!)


Spain's new Health Minister has said the Government would be open to the use of the Sputnik vaccine provided it is approved for use by the EMA. I will turn 65 in a few months' time and personally I would prefer to have the Russian vaccine than the Astra Zeneca one purely because of the higher efficacy claimed, and I was uneasy about the dosage mistake during the AZ trials even if it did apparently lead them to the conclusion than half the original dose resulted in greater effectiveness. I am pretty sure I won't be offered a choice, though, it isn't going to be like choosing from a restaurant menu!


----------



## Alcalaina

kaipa said:


> Looks as if Spain will follow other countries and not administer the AZ vaccine to 65+ group.


Given that relatively few doses are likely to reach Spain for a while, if there is any doubt it would make sense to use what there is on care workers etc in younger age groups. More data will emerge over time regarding its efficacy in older people, and then we can all have a rethink.

The supply chain problem is a bigger worry. Health minister for Andalucia said on TV last night that in order to meet its target of 70% by September, the region will need four times as many vaccine doses each month as it has received so far.


----------



## Overandout

I personally find it odd that anyone who thinks that the the covid news is just to scare us, keep us living in fear and under their control, would then say that they'd be open to have any vaccine going! 

I guess that's called hedging your bets?


----------



## jimenato

Overandout said:


> I personally find it odd that anyone who thinks that the the covid news is just to scare us, keep us living in fear and under their control, would then say that they'd be open to have any vaccine going!
> 
> I guess that's called hedging your bets?


😄


----------



## Isobella

Having the vaccine maybe the only way to fly, not that I am expecting Europe to be open to Brits this summer. They would rather burn down the house to get rid of a rat. Clear from last weeks actions they hate the British.

Japan and other countries are concerned about EUs protectionism.


----------



## kaipa

Well at least we might get one summer where people dont piss in the streets. Hip Hip Hooray!!


----------



## Isobella

Alcalaina said:


> Given that relatively few doses are likely to reach Spain for a while, if there is any doubt it would make sense to use what there is on care workers etc in younger age groups. More data will emerge over time regarding its efficacy in older people, and then we can all have a rethink.
> 
> The supply chain problem is a bigger worry. Health minister for Andalucia said on TV last night that in order to meet its target of 70% by September, the region will need four times as many vaccine doses each month as it has received so far.


I think it would have made sense to vaccinate care workers before those in homes. However news is in uk that around 30% of care workers are refusing to have it.


----------



## Isobella

kaipa said:


> Well at least we might get one summer where people dont piss in the streets. Hip Hip Hooray!!


Yes Spain has never been able to get away from the image they have poor quality tourism. For years they have been talking about having a better class of tourists. The places I know we’ll have always attracted nice people. Problem is if you live in one of those areas where tourists “ passing the streets” as you describe everyone gets tarred with the same brush.


----------



## kaipa

Today Sanidad has announced that the Asztrazeneca vaccine will not be used on 65 and over. They are even considering limiting it to only those under 55. So Brits here in Spain will ( unless youngish) will not get the oxford vaccine.


----------



## Overandout

Being what is now officially referred to as "youngish" , and living in Ayuso's Madrid, I wasn't really expecting to receive a vaccine at all, at least not this year anyway.

By the time it would be my turn I expect that they will have developed several other vaccines, discontinued others which prove to be ineffecive against newer strains of the virus, or simply have found an effective treatment which makes the mass vaccination an illogical action to progress with.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> Being what is now officially referred to as "youngish" , and living in Ayuso's Madrid, I wasn't really expecting to receive a vaccine at all, at least not this year anyway.
> 
> By the time it would be my turn I expect that they will have developed several other vaccines, discontinued others which prove to be ineffecive against newer strains of the virus, or simply have found an effective treatment which makes the mass vaccination an illogical action to progress with.


I was thinking definitely not before the summer, but maybe before Christmas precisely because there will probably be more vaccines available as they are developed and launched


----------



## kaipa

I am a teacher ( as are some of us here) and according to my boss " teachers" whether in public or private sector will be one of the higher categories for vaccination. In fact I was told that refusing to get vaccinated as a teacher might lead to grounds for dismissal


----------



## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> I was thinking definitely not before the summer, but maybe before Christmas precisely because there will probably be more vaccines available as they are developed and launched


The problem is that we are not only dependent on the vaccines being developed and distributed, we are dependent on the health authorities to administer them... we seem to have drawn the short straw on that one!

But related to that I can see more and more issues arising with various vaccines (some might not work on certain age groups, some might not work on certain starins, some might not impede transmission etc.) and more positive news about relatively succesful experimental treatments, I am beginning to wonder if the total vaccination campaign will ever really need to be completed. 

Maybe once the health professionals and "at risk" population are vaccinated, the rest of us could "risk it" if effective treatments are available in the relatively near future? Pipe dream? Maybe.... 🤷‍♂️


----------



## Overandout

kaipa said:


> I am a teacher ( as are some of us here) and according to my boss " teachers" whether in public or private sector will be one of the higher categories for vaccination. In fact I was told that refusing to get vaccinated as a teacher might lead to grounds for dismissal


Not in Madrid!

According to Ayuso, after the risk groups and health workers, next in line are waiters and taxi drivers....


----------



## kaipa

Overandout said:


> Not in Madrid!
> 
> According to Ayuso, after the risk groups and health workers, next in line are waiters and taxi drivers....


Well Ayuso...what can I say!!! She is probably helping the rest of PP shred all those naughty documents.I wonder if they will give Cifuentes her vaccination before she goes to prison ? Rajoy as well?


----------



## Megsmum

I am speaking to my medics in two weeks as I'm sure I must fall into the vulnerable category with my cancer ?


----------



## Isobella

I would have had any of the vaccines except Sputnik. Given that country's Pharma industry and lack of transparency I would stay clear unless USA and UK etc had passed it. Some countries have purchased it but not the most reputable. Articles in the Lancet from vested interests aren't proof. Also if it is so good why haven't they vaccinated more people.









Russia's claim of a successful COVID-19 vaccine doesn't pass the ‘smell test,' critics say


Institute cites interim review based on 20 cases in trial, but provides little more information on Sputnik V vaccine




www.sciencemag.org


----------



## Isobella

Megsmum said:


> I am speaking to my medics in two weeks as I'm sure I must fall into the vulnerable category with my cancer ?


I would think that it depends on the individuals immune system. Have you heard of Deborah James. She is a lovely young woman with bowel cancer and she has tweeted that she had the vaccine.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1352567968820035584


----------



## timwip

Isobella said:


> I would have had any of the vaccines except Sputnik. Given that country's Pharma industry and lack of transparency I would stay clear unless USA and UK etc had passed it. Some countries have purchased it but not the most reputable. Articles in the Lancet from vested interests aren't proof. Also if it is so good why haven't they vaccinated more people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russia's claim of a successful COVID-19 vaccine doesn't pass the ‘smell test,' critics say
> 
> 
> Institute cites interim review based on 20 cases in trial, but provides little more information on Sputnik V vaccine
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sciencemag.org


I would not have a Sinovac either. Chinese are not releasing data!


----------



## Lynn R

So the Spanish Health Ministry has now taken the decision that the Astra Zeneca vaccine will only be administered to those between the ages of 18 and 55, and the first doses of this vaccine to be delivered in the coming days will be allocated to second line health workers.









La vacuna de AstraZeneca solo se administrará a personas entre 18 y 55 años


España se alinea con los países europeos más conservadores. El lote que llega este fin de semana irá para sanitarios de segunda línea




elpais.com


----------



## Lynn R

That's it, I'm booking a holiday to Cuba!









Cuba Offers To Vaccinate Tourists Who Visit The Island


Cuba has announced they will offer vaccinations to anyone who visits the island once their vaccine completes the required trials.




www.traveloffpath.com


----------



## Alcalaina

Lynn R said:


> So the Spanish Health Ministry has now taken the decision that the Astra Zeneca vaccine will only be administered to those between the ages of 18 and 55, and the first doses of this vaccine to be delivered in the coming days will be allocated to second line health workers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> La vacuna de AstraZeneca solo se administrará a personas entre 18 y 55 años
> 
> 
> España se alinea con los países europeos más conservadores. El lote que llega este fin de semana irá para sanitarios de segunda línea
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elpais.com


Cautious but sensible. After a few months there will be more data available from the UK about the efficacy of the AZ vaccine in the older age group, then the policy can be reviewed.


----------



## kaipa

Lynn R said:


> So the Spanish Health Ministry has now taken the decision that the Astra Zeneca vaccine will only be administered to those between the ages of 18 and 55, and the first doses of this vaccine to be delivered in the coming days will be allocated to second line health workers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> La vacuna de AstraZeneca solo se administrará a personas entre 18 y 55 años
> 
> 
> España se alinea con los países europeos más conservadores. El lote que llega este fin de semana irá para sanitarios de segunda línea
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elpais.com


Yes I saw this today. They basically say that they dont think that there's anything wrong with the vaccine just that initial data was only really available for that age group so the are doing it by the book and waiting for the next data delivery. I don't think there is any Anti-UK thing going on as most of Britain's tabloid press believe just being sensible.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> Not in Madrid!
> 
> According to Ayuso, after the risk groups and health workers, next in line are waiters and taxi drivers....


Really?! It had occurred to me that by the time they get round to teachers, classes would be over, so that might mean other risk groups might be considered a more urgent case...


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Megsmum said:


> I am speaking to my medics in two weeks as I'm sure I must fall into the vulnerable category with my cancer ?


Very possibly, you can but enquire


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> The problem is that we are not only dependent on the vaccines being developed and distributed, we are dependent on the health authorities to administer them... we seem to have drawn the short straw on that one!
> 
> But related to that I can see more and more issues arising with various vaccines (some might not work on certain age groups, some might not work on certain starins, some might not impede transmission etc.) and more positive news about relatively succesful experimental treatments, I am beginning to wonder if the total vaccination campaign will ever really need to be completed.
> 
> Maybe once the health professionals and "at risk" population are vaccinated, the rest of us could "risk it" if effective treatments are available in the relatively near future? Pipe dream? Maybe.... 🤷‍♂️


I thought it had now been approved that dentists can also give the vaccine? Not sure if they will want to though and how it would work... Meaning that more people are being enrolled to vaccinate. And as to effective treatment, I think it's a pipe dream and even if there is I think it likely that another virus will attack and make everything redundant


----------



## The Skipper

Pesky Wesky said:


> I thought it had now been approved that dentists can also give the vaccine? Not sure if they will want to though and how it would work... Meaning that more people are being enrolled to vaccinate. And as to effective treatment, I think it's a pipe dream and even if there is I think it likely that another virus will attack and make everything redundant


My local vet told me that she was asked to help deliver the Covid vaccine but she had refused. They expected her to do it for nothing and she didn't see why she should give her time without payment when senior civil servants like Fernando Simón were receiving huge monthly bonuses on top of already generous salaries for the part they were playing in the fight against Covid!


----------



## woodpecker9

Your vet has a great attitude, Captain Sir Tom Moore would be proud of her.


----------



## Megsmum

Great attitude. If in UK I'd volunteer to give as an ex nurse. Whilst I understand the angst against those that take the piss. Thank god for front line workers who risk their health daily for normal pay.


----------



## Max Rigger

Isobella said:


> I think it would have made sense to vaccinate care workers before those in homes. However news is in uk that around 30% of care workers are refusing to have it.


That number is a tad high and its going down. Its looking like vaccine refusal will be grounds for turning down job applicants and possibly a disciplinary matter for existing employees, their refusal is putting others at risk and I'd go along with that.

Sister in law is in medicine and told me that in the beginning a good number of folk did not turn up for vaccination but that number has gone right down recently as people start to ignore the fake news and 'my mate said his mate told him' and are seeing the light.

I now look uipon anyone who is not medically barred from the vaccine as a potential killer and have absolutely no time for them. Hopefully nature will clear these Darwin Award candidates from the community.

Keep safe, have the jab.


----------



## jimenato

Only slight problem with writing off vaccine refuseniks in that way is that (in the UK at least) very many of them are from BAME backgrounds who apparently have a history of being experimented on and are therefore understandably suspicious on this issue. Otherwise I'm completely with you.

By the way for a brilliantly clear statement on where we are in the UK with vaccine development listen to Professor Sarah Gilbert on Andrew Marr this morning (BBC1 9am GMT).


----------



## blondebob

Max Rigger said:


> That number is a tad high and its going down. *Its looking like vaccine refusal will be grounds for turning down job applicants and possibly a disciplinary matter for existing employees, their refusal is putting others at risk and I'd go along with that.*
> 
> Sister in law is in medicine and told me that in the beginning a good number of folk did not turn up for vaccination but that number has gone right down recently as people start to ignore the fake news and 'my mate said his mate told him' and are seeing the light.
> 
> I now look uipon anyone who is not medically barred from the vaccine as a potential killer and have absolutely no time for them. Hopefully nature will clear these Darwin Award candidates from the community.
> 
> Keep safe, have the jab.


Completely illegal


----------



## Alcalaina

jimenato said:


> Only slight problem with writing off vaccine refuseniks in that way is that (in the UK at least) very many of them are from BAME backgrounds who apparently have a history of being experimented on and are therefore understandably suspicious on this issue. Otherwise I'm completely with you.
> 
> By the way for a brilliantly clear statement on where we are in the UK with vaccine development listen to Professor Sarah Gilbert on Andrew Marr this morning (BBC1 9am GMT).


Heard that. very good. So is Tim Harford's series _How to Vaccinate the World _on Radio 4. She's been on there a couple of times I think.








BBC Radio 4 - How to Vaccinate the World


Tim Harford reports on the global race to create a vaccine to end the Covid-19 pandemic.




www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Lynn R

Progress report on the Junta de Andalucia's vaccination plans. They reckon that from April onwards they will be receiving 500,000 doses a week and will only need 350,000 to reach the target of 70% of the population being vaccinated by the end of the summer, remains to be seen if they are right. 









Los grandes espacios donde se vacunará en Andalucía: cuatro estadios, una plaza de toros y dos palacios de congresos


El Gobierno andaluz se prepara para poder poner medio millón de dosis cada semana, pero solo necesitan 350.000 para alcanzar el 70%




www.malagahoy.es


----------



## kaipa

Wow they still have a long way to go. Only just a million with two doses so far. There seems to very little energy around the whole vaccination process here in Spain. I can almost see it slowing down rather than powering ahead. Anyone who was tested positive wont get a vaccination for 6 months for a start. The news is mostly about how they are expecting a 4th wave later on so I think it's going to be a long time until we are vaccinated.


----------



## blondebob

Seems to be mostly Brits that are rolling their sleeves up and gagging for it, virtually all my Spanish acquaintances not going to have it


----------



## Beach buddy

Lynn R said:


> Progress report on the Junta de Andalucia's vaccination plans. They reckon that from April onwards they will be receiving 500,000 doses a week and will only need 350,000 to reach the target of 70% of the population being vaccinated by the end of the summer, remains to be seen if they are right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Los grandes espacios donde se vacunará en Andalucía: cuatro estadios, una plaza de toros y dos palacios de congresos
> 
> 
> El Gobierno andaluz se prepara para poder poner medio millón de dosis cada semana, pero solo necesitan 350.000 para alcanzar el 70%
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.malagahoy.es


People from La Vinuela(over 80) are being contacted for vaccinations.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> Progress report on the Junta de Andalucia's vaccination plans. They reckon that from April onwards they will be receiving 500,000 doses a week and will only need 350,000 to reach the target of 70% of the population being vaccinated by the end of the summer, remains to be seen if they are right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Los grandes espacios donde se vacunará en Andalucía: cuatro estadios, una plaza de toros y dos palacios de congresos
> 
> 
> El Gobierno andaluz se prepara para poder poner medio millón de dosis cada semana, pero solo necesitan 350.000 para alcanzar el 70%
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.malagahoy.es


Any plan about almost anything is probably going to go awry this year I think, but nevertheless, plans have to be made. As far as vaccinations go I heard on the radio today that there is another delay with some vaccinations (can't remember which ones) being exported to Spain. There's no reason to think this won't happen periodically over the very lengthy vaccination period that we have and the ginormous task that this is for all involved.
If vaccinations are held up, so family reunions will be, plans for holidays, plans to go back to the office (yes, some offices want their people back behind their desks!) etc....


----------



## kalohi

blondebob said:


> Seems to be mostly Brits that are rolling their sleeves up and gagging for it, virtually all my Spanish acquaintances not going to have it


I'm not saying that this isn't your experience, but it's definitely not mine. I literally don't know anyone here who is saying they won't have the vaccine - of any age and of any nationality.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kalohi said:


> I'm not saying that this isn't your experience, but it's definitely not mine. I literally don't know anyone here who is saying they won't have the vaccine - of any age and of any nationality.


Me neither; people are disappointed that they won't be getting it earlier.


----------



## Alcalaina

kaipa said:


> Wow they still have a long way to go. Only just a million with two doses so far. There seems to very little energy around the whole vaccination process here in Spain. I can almost see it slowing down rather than powering ahead. Anyone who was tested positive wont get a vaccination for 6 months for a start. The news is mostly about how they are expecting a 4th wave later on so I think it's going to be a long time until we are vaccinated.


It's not down to a lack of energy or will - just the very slow arrival of supplies due to the inefficiency of the EU central purchasing programme.

I predicted in January I wouldn't get mine till June or July, so that is still a strong possibility. Won't be travelling till September ...


----------



## Overandout

I have spoken to several Spanish people who have said that they will refuse.

But the common denominator of these people (apart from their passport) is their political persuasion. I think this will be the case in many countries / nationalities. One even told me that they would never have any medicine recommended by this "communist government".


----------



## Megsmum

Most people I know are desperate to get it. I'm not sure

we all await the arrival.. I suspect we will be waiting a while yet



kalohi said:


> I'm not saying that this isn't your experience, but it's definitely not mine. I literally don't know anyone here who is saying they won't have the vaccine - of any age and of any nationality.


----------



## blondebob

What I don't quite understand is that if someone tests positive for Covid but show no symptoms and are albeit healthy they are advised NOT to have the Vaccine until a month after they test negative yet they are happily putting it into patients who have compromised immune systems


----------



## Isobella

Megsmum said:


> Most people I know are desperate to get it. I'm not sure
> 
> we all await the arrival.. I suspect we will be waiting a while yet


I think the elderly are very keen and those with underlying conditions but as it dwindles down to under 50s they probably won’t be too keen.


----------



## Barriej

blondebob said:


> What I don't quite understand is that if someone tests positive for Covid but show no symptoms and are albeit healthy they are advised NOT to have the Vaccine until a month after they test negative yet they are happily putting it into patients who have compromised immune systems


What about those people who have had the Covid but never got tested, does that give them a health risk in the future?
And what are the reasons for not giving the vaccine to people who have had it?
And does that then cause issues with the proposed vaccine passport, after all, its another form of discrimination.


----------



## blondebob

Barriej said:


> What about those people who have had the Covid but never got tested, does that give them a health risk in the future?
> And what are the reasons for not giving the vaccine to people who have had it?
> And does that then cause issues with the proposed vaccine passport, after all, its another form of discrimination.


Indeed, there seems to be lots of variables, which concerns me. I didn't know that they weren't giving the vaccine to people who have had Covid


----------



## kaipa

Due to discrimination issues I would imagine vaccination passports would not be issued until everyone has been offered a jag.


----------



## kaipa

blondebob said:


> Indeed, there seems to be lots of variables, which concerns me. I didn't know that they weren't giving the vaccine to people who have had Covid


Anyone who has had Covid has to wait six months before receiving jag in Spain.


----------



## blondebob

kaipa said:


> Due to discrimination issues I would imagine vaccination passports would not be issued until everyone has been offered a* jag.*


Is that an incentive if so I'll sign up 😅


----------



## Beach buddy

Me too


----------



## timwip

kaipa said:


> Due to discrimination issues I would imagine vaccination passports would not be issued until everyone has been offered a jag.





kaipa said:


> Due to discrimination issues I would imagine vaccination passports would not be issued until everyone has been offered a jag.


I guess it can be construed as discrimination; however, each country has their own laws. For example, Mauritius allows tourists in that can show proof of vaccination. I wonder if there has been a case of a person that has not been offered the vaccine suing the Mauritius government for not letting them in? I doubt that lawsuit would go anywhere.


----------



## Beach buddy

Just heard from an 84 year old man who has been called for his jab in Torre Del Mar before his 94 year old wife.. why are they not vaccinating husbands and wives together ?


----------



## Alcalaina

Just read that residents who only have private health insurance and aren't registered in the state healthcare system won't be offered a vaccine. Does anyone have more info on this?


----------



## Barriej

Alcalaina said:


> Just read that residents who only have private health insurance and aren't registered in the state healthcare system won't be offered a vaccine. Does anyone have more info on this?


I asked my healthcare provider and they confirmed this. They said they were not even being given the option to purchase the vaccines either until the general public had all been given theirs. 
Makes me feel special (although what kind I don't know)

Our local Health Centre has said (Polop and La Nucia) if you have any health issues and wish to be considered you can give your details and you will be contacted at some point. 
They didn't say you could then be vaccinated, just that they would be aware of you.
I think if you have major health issues, it would count as an emergency and they could not refuse you. (maybe even covered under the EHIC) but I don't know. Im sure if you caught Covid you would be admitted.

Had to give NIE, Residency application number (as we still don't have our TIE) and copy of padron, gave them the details for my wife as she has asthma, didn't bother myself as Im in the lowest group to be done anyway.


----------



## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> Just read that residents who only have private health insurance and aren't registered in the state healthcare system won't be offered a vaccine. Does anyone have more info on this?


I've heard this, and also heard the opposite - but nothing concrete either way. 

I did read something about anyone in the Valencian region being able to go to the centro de salud to 'register for vaccination', but it wasn't a source I know & trust, so took that as a 'maybe that will happen'. 

They have only this week started community vaccination of over 80s here, so I'm not really expecting to hear anything certain just yet.


----------



## Megsmum

Isobella said:


> I think the elderly are very keen and those with underlying conditions but as it dwindles down to under 50s they probably won’t be too keen.


you calling me elderly LOL



Beach buddy said:


> Just heard from an 84 year old man who has been called for his jab in Torre Del Mar before his 94 year old wife.. why are they not vaccinating husbands and wives together ?


maybe he has underlying problems.?


----------



## Isobella

Megsmum said:


> you calling me elderly LOL
> 
> 
> 
> maybe he has underlying problems.?


I was thinking over 60😀
Sounds the same as in UK there are a lot of anomalies. Many are inviting couples now eg if one is in their 70s then partners are being called even if in their 60s. It must be very frustrating for those who feel they have been missed.


----------



## Megsmum

Isobella said:


> I was thinking over 60😀
> Sounds the same as in UK there are a lot of anomalies. Many are inviting couples now eg if one is in their 70s then partners are being called even if in their 60s. It must be very frustrating for those who feel they have been missed.


its a huge undertaking for any country there are bound to be anomalies. People need to be grateful that in less than a year we’ve gone from zero to many differ vaccines. Less than 6 Months ago the vaccine was still in progress


----------



## Isobella

Megsmum said:


> its a huge undertaking for any country there are bound to be anomalies. People need to be grateful that in less than a year we’ve gone from zero to many differ vaccines. Less than 6 Months ago the vaccine was still in progress


What I don’t like is hearing of these 50 yr old celebrities being vaccinated. Ok. some may have underlying conditions but not all. Would be preferable if they just kept quiet.


----------



## Beach buddy

Megsmum said:


> you calling me elderly LOL
> 
> 
> 
> maybe he has underlying problems.?


No he was complaining because his wife had underlying problems


----------



## olivefarmer

Beach buddy said:


> No he was complaining because his wife had underlying problems


Still no news on the format of the EU Common Pass to facilitate international travel and access to open spaces. It was due by the end of January. I cannot see it flying legally. European court of human rights will have a field day. Plenty of European countries keen on its introduction including Spain ( for obvious tourist reasons).


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Beach buddy said:


> Just heard from an 84 year old man who has been called for his jab in Torre Del Mar before his 94 year old wife.. why are they not vaccinating husbands and wives together ?


Too complicated. You can't vaccinate by household, it has to be by age or state of health. If it was done by who you live with you'd have parents and children being vaccinated together ot for example my MIL 94, asthmatic, would be vaccinated along with her son of 58 and the cleaner of 42 with no underlying health issues...


----------



## Beach buddy

What I meant was husband and wife(only two in the household)vaccinated together.


----------



## wroliveira

Alcalaina said:


> Just read that residents who only have private health insurance and aren't registered in the state healthcare system won't be offered a vaccine. Does anyone have more info on this?





https://www.thelocal.es/20210203/reader-question-how-do-i-get-a-covid-vaccine-if-im-not-in-spains-public-health-system


----------



## Alcalaina

wroliveira said:


> https://www.thelocal.es/20210203/reader-question-how-do-i-get-a-covid-vaccine-if-im-not-in-spains-public-health-system


Thanks. So this is the relevant bit:



> Those living in Spain have been advised to contact their local health centre to register *regardless of whether they are entitled to free health care or have private health insurance*. Before you do just drop in, it is advised to call ahead as some health care centres require an appointment.
> You should provide the following information:
> 
> Your passport (bring a copy just in case)
> Your residence card (green certificate if EU member or TIE if third country national). If you have one.
> “Certificado de empadronamiento” (registration with the Town Hall) which is no older than three months.
> In the case of minors, you should bring their documents and birth certificates as well. Children do not need to be present.


----------



## jimenato

Beach buddy said:


> What I meant was husband and wife(only two in the household)vaccinated together.


I wish they would too (here in the UK). 

My wife just sneaked in to the previous age group and has been vaxxed - I didn't and haven't been done yet. 

We are currently in a state-of-health rather than an age group phase and two of my considerably younger friends with health issues have been done - I might have a bit of a wait. 

There are regional variations within the UK - some are going faster than others - but in general the organisation seems very sound.

I'm a bit surprised to hear that the Spanish aren't keen on the Covid jab - they queue down the street for the flu vax.


----------



## Alcalaina

jimenato said:


> I'm a bit surprised to hear that the Spanish aren't keen on the Covid jab - they queue down the street for the flu vax.


In December polls showed over 45% of Spanish were reluctant to be vaccinated - that has come right down to around 20% now. There are a few nutters who think it's a government plot or something but mainly it was just people being cautious about possible side effects.


----------



## kaipa

I see they have changed the vaccine path now. Last week they were talking of doing it collectively by looking at types of workers. Today they have announced its age specific. 80s at the moment. Then 70s, 60s etc. It is being done by the healthcare centres so I cant see how they will contact those who exist only on private healthcare. Most Spanish will at least be registered even if they use private care.


----------



## Lynn R

jimenato said:


> I'm a bit surprised to hear that the Spanish aren't keen on the Covid jab - they queue down the street for the flu vax.


Some of them may not be, but I met a Spanish friend in the street yesterday, out shopping with her husband and her mother. Her mother (who is in her 80s) had had her first dose of the vaccine the day before and had an appointment for the second. Her husband, who is in his early 70s, is eagerly awaiting his turn. She is 15 years younger but also keen to get the vaccine when her turn comes around.


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> I see they have changed the vaccine path now. Last week they were talking of doing it collectively by looking at types of workers. Today they have announced its age specific. 80s at the moment. Then 70s, 60s etc. It is being done by the healthcare centres so I cant see how they will contact those who exist only on private healthcare. Most Spanish will at least be registered even if they use private care.


definite change of tact. Do you have a source link?

found it. So this means it’s not going on health situation simply age!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Megsmum said:


> definite change of tact. Do you have a source link?
> 
> found it. So this means it’s not going on health situation simply age!


Is it a change? I didn't think the vaccine procedure had been well defined in Spain. Besides the age factor there is also supposedly provision for "essential services" such as fire fighters, pharmacists, teachers... But, of course, it all depends on which area you live in. And on top of that, which vaccine you're talking about. I think the message is you'll get a jab sooner or later!


----------



## blondebob

There seems to be a lot of people not having there vaccine in some areas now with 50% not showing up for appointments in one Manchester mass vaccine centre









Only 50% of Covid jab appointments used at Manchester vaccine centre


The mayor of Greater Manchester urged the Government to expand the rollout to 'younger, more mobile' age groups who were more able to travel to mass vaccination centres to get their jabs.




www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Alcalaina

kaipa said:


> I see they have changed the vaccine path now. Last week they were talking of doing it collectively by looking at types of workers. Today they have announced its age specific. 80s at the moment. Then 70s, 60s etc. It is being done by the healthcare centres so I cant see how they will contact those who exist only on private healthcare. Most Spanish will at least be registered even if they use private care.


They had a change of plan when it was decided not to give the AZ vaccine to over-55s. They will now use this for key workers in younger age groups, including teachers, police etc. The RNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) will be used for older age groups as you describe.

The article posted above suggests that anyone with just private insurance needs to register with the health service so they are in the system and can be contacted when it’s their turn to be vaccinated. It also explains what you need in order to do so.


----------



## Isobella

blondebob said:


> There seems to be a lot of people not having there vaccine in some areas now with 50% not showing up for appointments in one Manchester mass vaccine centre
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only 50% of Covid jab appointments used at Manchester vaccine centre
> 
> 
> The mayor of Greater Manchester urged the Government to expand the rollout to 'younger, more mobile' age groups who were more able to travel to mass vaccination centres to get their jabs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk


There is a graph in today's media (yes another one!) which shows 100% take up in most areas. the lowest take up is in some London boroughs.

I think the mass vaccination centres were a bad plan. Would have been better to set up small ones in rural areas etc. Fortunately our health centre acted as a hub for all the surrounding villages. Probably some duplication too. We had letters from the NHS informing us we were eligible to book an appointment at a jab centre, in Brighton, about 35 mins away, the next morning had a call from our GP with an appointment for the next day.


----------



## blondebob

Isobella said:


> There is a graph in today's media (yes another one!) which shows *100% take up in most areas*. the lowest take up is in some London boroughs.


Was it done in crayon by a DM work experience person with some exotic name........will be 112% tomorrow, then 57% ..whatever suits the days agenda 😅


----------



## jimenato

blondebob said:


> There seems to be a lot of people not having there vaccine in some areas now with 50% not showing up for appointments in one Manchester mass vaccine centre
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only 50% of Covid jab appointments used at Manchester vaccine centre
> 
> 
> The mayor of Greater Manchester urged the Government to expand the rollout to 'younger, more mobile' age groups who were more able to travel to mass vaccination centres to get their jabs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk


This is true. There is an awful lot of misinformation around much of which is directed at the BAME community and it's doing immense damage. 

My (middle-aged, middle class, white) experience is that people can't get it soon enough.

I know of people in London and other areas who have received the vax early as in their area the refusal rate is high - so they move on to the next lower age bracket.


----------



## blondebob

jimenato said:


> This is true. There is an awful lot of misinformation around much of which is directed at the BAME community and it's doing immense damage.
> 
> My (middle-aged, middle class, white) experience is that people can't get it soon enough.
> 
> I know of people in London and other areas who have received the vax early as in their area the refusal rate is high - so they move on to the next lower age bracket.


What misinformation? And where is it being directed at the BAME community? From what I see it is the opposite with BAME celebrities all over the media extolling the benefits of having this vaccine. 
I think there will be an even worse up take in the under 40's whatever ethnicity they are from judging by comments in the media.


----------



## jimenato

blondebob said:


> What misinformation? And where is it being directed at the BAME community? From what I see it is the opposite with* BAME celebrities all over the media extolling the benefits of having this vaccine*.
> I think there will be an even worse up take in the under 40's whatever ethnicity they are from judging by comments in the media.


Yes - that is a deliberate effort to counter the misinformation.


----------



## jimenato

This programme is on BBC iplayer so I don't know if you'll be able to watch it

Panorama - Vaccines: The Disinformation War

Short and therefore somewhat superficial but nevertheless interesting Panorama programme on anti-vax and covid denial disinformation.


----------



## blondebob

jimenato said:


> This programme is on BBC iplayer so I don't know if you'll be able to watch it
> 
> Panorama - Vaccines: The Disinformation War
> 
> Short and therefore somewhat superficial but nevertheless interesting Panorama programme on anti-vax and covid denial disinformation.


As you say somewhat superficial, be interesting to see their response this evening

Ask the Experts II Trailer - Coming Saturday 20th February


----------



## jimenato

blondebob said:


> As you say somewhat superficial, be interesting to see their response this evening
> 
> Ask the Experts II Trailer - Coming Saturday 20th February


Can't wait .... 😂 😂 😂


----------



## Alcalaina

Latest poll in Spain shows 83% of Spanish now want to be vaccinated (up from 72% a month ago) and only 6.5% would refuse it. 








Barómetro CIS | Importante subida de la confianza en las vacunas: más del 80% de los españoles, dispuestos a recibirla


La confianza de los españoles en la vacuna del coronavirus sigue subiendo. El 82,9% de los ciudadanos aseguran que se vacunarán inmediatamente en cuanto les...




www.20minutos.es





Does anyone have figures for the UK?


----------



## blondebob

jimenato said:


> Can't wait .... 😂 😂 😂


Not surprising 😂🤣😂🤣


----------



## blondebob

Alcalaina said:


> Latest poll in Spain shows 83% of Spanish now want to be vaccinated (up from 72% a month ago) and only 6.5% would refuse it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Barómetro CIS | Importante subida de la confianza en las vacunas: más del 80% de los españoles, dispuestos a recibirla
> 
> 
> La confianza de los españoles en la vacuna del coronavirus sigue subiendo. El 82,9% de los ciudadanos aseguran que se vacunarán inmediatamente en cuanto les...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.20minutos.es
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone have figures for the UK?


Thats a worrying statistic that at least 3 Million people in Spain will refuse the vaccine.


----------



## Megsmum

Alcalaina said:


> Latest poll in Spain shows 83% of Spanish now want to be vaccinated (up from 72% a month ago) and only 6.5% would refuse it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Barómetro CIS | Importante subida de la confianza en las vacunas: más del 80% de los españoles, dispuestos a recibirla
> 
> 
> La confianza de los españoles en la vacuna del coronavirus sigue subiendo. El 82,9% de los ciudadanos aseguran que se vacunarán inmediatamente en cuanto les...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.20minutos.es
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone have figures for the UK?


found this

In general, a large majority of the population has a favorable perception regarding vaccines, with 65–80% expressing a willingness to receive the COVID-19 vaccine





__





DEFINE_ME






www.thelancet.com





so bases on lower en 1.6 million. Based on upper end 2.3 million...months not my strong point 

but asking someone a question and the actual facts are different, which we all know from Brexit and recent elections. People say one thing and do another.


----------



## blondebob

Not going too well in the U.S 









Thousands of service members saying no to Covid vaccine


Some Army units are seeing as few as one-third agree to the vaccine.




www.nbcnews.com


----------



## Alcalaina

blondebob said:


> Thats a worrying statistic that at least 3 Million people in Spain will refuse the vaccine.


Acceptance level is still well above the 70% or whatever needed for herd immunity. And it's based on intentions as of now. The refusal figure is likely to get smaller once they see all their friends getting the jab and using their vaccine passports to go to clubs and football matches ...


----------



## Isobella

Depends how extensive the number of participants in the survey too. Every where I hear of in UK seems very keen to have it. One person I know has always refused to have the flu jab but has had the Covid jab.

Just heard from a friend that her adult family is having the jab (some in their 20s) through a contact. enchufismo in the UK too !


----------



## Megsmum

Yes is like the Nivea advert... 79%of women agree. Sample 146 receiving free cream

I'm not worried about uptake at all... Simply because worrying won't change anything


----------



## blondebob

jimenato said:


> This programme is on BBC iplayer so I don't know if you'll be able to watch it
> 
> Panorama - Vaccines: The Disinformation War
> 
> Short and therefore somewhat superficial but nevertheless interesting Panorama programme on anti-vax and covid denial disinformation.


Doesn't Bill Gates help FUND the BBC?


----------



## Isobella

Long article in the Telegraph, Re. the rubbishing of the Astra Zeneca by EU. many do not want it and some countries do not have any other vaccine. Small clip here.

*Europe has succumbed to the nocebo effect. If people are primed to believe that something makes them ill, they discover illness. It is the reverse placebo.

Tens of millions have received the AstraZeneca jab in the UK and India without meaningful side-effects beyond minor - and desirable - signs of an immune reaction. Yet frontline health workers in Germany, Austria, France, and Spain have convinced themselves that it is doing them real harm, and that it is also ineffective.

The nocebo effect is a known pathology in medical science. It has been well-documented following false reporting on statins. One clinical trial studying headaches from electric currents found that two-thirds of the volunteers in the harmless control group also had headaches. Nocebo responses can be powerful and physiological. The symptoms are real.

That is probably what has been happening with AstraZeneca in Germany where fake news has run rampant, to the point of mass hysteria. Braunschweig’s Herzogin-Elisabeth hospital reported that 37 out of 88 staff reported sick the day after receiving the jab. The same happened to a quarter of 300 ambulance workers in Dortmund.*









Costs are rising exponentially for Europe's disinformation war on vaccine science


Failing to tackle the "nocebo effect" renders €750bn Recovery Fund insufficient and makes restructuring some eurozone debt inescapable




www.telegraph.co.uk


----------



## jimenato

So health workers are susceptible to the nonsense - hardly surprising that ordinary folk are then.

I had it today at a mass vaccination centre - Ashton Gate Stadium.

Very impressive - around 30 cubicles each with two staff - and many other staff - guides, helpers, security and so on - probably around 100 people involved.

And me - just me 

OK it was a Sunday - and it was the first day for 60-65 age group (I only found out by chance that I was eligible yesterday and booked online) so possibly understandable that it was underused today. 

I'd imagine at full bore it could handle hundreds per hour.

Every adult in the UK to be vaxxed by July.


----------



## blondebob

jimenato said:


> So health workers are susceptible to the nonsense - hardly surprising that ordinary folk are then.
> 
> I had it today at a mass vaccination centre - Ashton Gate Stadium.
> 
> Very impressive - around 30 cubicles each with two staff - and many other staff - guides, helpers, security and so on - probably around 100 people involved.
> 
> And me - just me
> 
> OK it was a Sunday - and it was the first day for 60-65 age group (I only found out by chance that I was eligible yesterday and booked online) so possibly understandable that it was underused today.
> 
> I'd imagine at full bore it could handle hundreds per hour.
> 
> *Every adult in the UK to be vaxxed by July.*


That is great news, but can you explain how they are going to vaccinate the ones that don't wish to have it?


----------



## jimenato

blondebob said:


> That is great news, but can you explain how they are going to vaccinate the ones that don't wish to have it?


Probably won't be enough of them to worry about. People will come to their senses. 

Ultimately if there are a lot we will have to do something like Israel and issue passes so that entrance to venues where infection to others is likely, is restricted to those who have been vaccinated.



> While shops are now open to all in Israel, the public must carry a vaccine passport if they want to visit gyms, hotels and theatres.
> 
> The innovative 'green pass' is issued to those who have had both doses of the Pfizer vaccine more than a week prior or recovered from Covid-19 with presumed immunity.
> 
> They will have their 'Green Pass' status displayed on a Health Ministry app that they must present at certain venues.


----------



## Megsmum

jimenato said:


> Probably won't be enough of them to worry about. People will come to their senses.
> 
> Ultimately if there are a lot we will have to do something like Israel and issue passes so that entrance to venues where infection to others is likely, is restricted to those who have been vaccinated.


glad you’ve had the jab.
not worth getting stressed about uptake.... as you say eventually people will have it if they don’t they don’t... nothing we can do about it.....


----------



## Beach buddy

Well said, I agree. If you don’t want it, fine. Your decision. But, I would think that countries would be well within their rights to issue vaccination certificates and insist on people having them for traveling and attending large venue events etc.


----------



## olivefarmer

Beach buddy said:


> Well said, I agree. If you don’t want it, fine. Your decision. But, I would think that countries would be well within their rights to issue vaccination certificates and insist on people having them for traveling and attending large venue events etc.


sounds good but wait for the avalanche of against my human rights clogging the courts.


----------



## Beach buddy

Most countries have imposed certain restrictions with entries and exits into Countries during this time, why not proof of vaccine?


----------



## Barriej

Beach buddy said:


> Most countries have imposed certain restrictions with entries and exits into Countries during this time, why not proof of vaccine?


I think its mainly due to the fact that nobody is sure if the vaccine will either stop you from catching again (in a milder form) or becoming a carrier. 
If I were in charge anywhere (not likely) I would only allow my citizens to travel to countries with an equal or lower rate and would still expect them to isolate on return. 
On the flip side I can't see why any country would allow any visitors from countries with a higher rate than theirs, so it all comes down to when this fades into the background and becomes just something we live with. 

Someone mentioned on Tv the other day about the yellow fever jab you used to have before entering certain countries and you had to carry proof. This was used as a reason for a new health passport.
But yellow fever is not transmittable by human to human contact so he got shot down.


----------



## olivefarmer

Beach buddy said:


> Most countries have imposed certain restrictions with entries and exits into Countries during this time, why not proof of vaccine?


Might be acceptable for international travel when vaccination levels are high at both ends of the journey, the Common Pass being developed by the EU also includes access to open spaces. That might be a bottelon in Granada or a pop festival at Glastonberry. What about a park in local town or school parent teacher evening? Who would do their shopping?.


----------



## jimenato

olivefarmer said:


> Might be acceptable for international travel when vaccination levels are high at both ends of the journey, the Common Pass being developed by the EU also includes access to open spaces. That might be a bottelon in Granada or a pop festival at Glastonberry. What about a park in local town or school parent teacher evening? Who would do their shopping?.


Shopping is not banned now so I don't see why it would be under a passport scheme. (apart of course form those in compulsory isolation - they can't go shopping).

But lots of things are - pubs. restaurants, cinemas, sports venues and so on - they could be opened to passport holders.

I don't see why the issuing of a passport to say that one has been vaxxed is controversial TBH.

The act of doing that is not in itself depriving anyone of any rights.


----------



## olivefarmer

jimenato said:


> Shopping is not banned now so I don't see why it would be under a passport scheme. (apart of course form those in compulsory isolation - they can't go shopping).
> 
> But lots of things are - pubs. restaurants, cinemas, sports venues and so on - they could be opened to passport holders.
> 
> I don't see why the issuing of a passport to say that one has been vaxxed is controversial TBH.
> 
> The act of doing that is not in itself depriving anyone of any rights.


just making an observation really. We have all lost so many of the freedoms we had taken for granted. Vaccine passports are just an extension of that. I just think it hasnt been thought through. Better would just be blanket vaccination of all countries to say 90% ( so a notional 10% of pregnant, concsientious objectors, medical conditions etc) . As said above how would hotel workers in a country with low incidence feel having tourists from a higher incidence country feel?


----------



## blondebob

Beach buddy said:


> Well said, I agree. If you don’t want it, fine. Your decision. But, I would think that countries would be well within their rights to issue vaccination certificates and insist on people having them for traveling and attending large venue events etc.


Totally unlawful, certainly not within their rights.


----------



## jimenato

I would see a vaccination passport as extending or restoring rights rather restricting them.


----------



## kaipa

The problen with vaccine passports is no one knows how long they remain effective. Secondly if many European countries are not sure about AZ vaccine then it makes sense that they may not consider those vaccinations effective etc. Thirdly, discrimination laws will be a nightmare: is it fair to allow older age groups to travel because society decided they deserved vaccination first whilst young working families might have to wait for another summer to travel?. All in all they are going to be problematic.


----------



## jimenato

kaipa said:


> The problen with vaccine passports is no one knows how long they remain effective. Secondly if many European countries are not sure about AZ vaccine then it makes sense that they may not consider those vaccinations effective etc. Thirdly, discrimination laws will be a nightmare: is it fair to allow older age groups to travel because society decided they deserved vaccination first whilst young working families might have to wait for another summer to travel?. All in all they are going to be problematic.


Yes - that's one problem - and there are others. I can't really see them happening which is a shame - it will probably just hold everything up.

Having said that several countries have already said that they will welcome visitors who have been vaxxed - don't know how that's going to work but it could be that international travel could be out of this country's hands.


----------



## blondebob

Council of Europe: No compulsory vaccinations and no discrimination against the unvaccinated | Free West Media


On 27 January, the Council of Europe signed Resolution 2361, which states that vaccinations in EU Member States should not be mandatory. Furthermore, persons who have not been vaccinated may not be discriminated against in any way. This effectively stops the notion of




freewestmedia.com


----------



## wroliveira

Alcalaina said:


> Thanks. So this is the relevant bit:


As everything in Spain, the only thing that is consistent is the inconsistency.
Just called 955 54 50 60 to enquiry about registering for the shot and they told me the privately insured people will be summoned by their clinics to get the shot, when their turn arrives based upon the age. How they are going to call up the people she did not know but she told me to sit tight and wait. So, no, you should not register with your local health centre.


----------



## jimenato

blondebob said:


> Council of Europe: No compulsory vaccinations and no discrimination against the unvaccinated | Free West Media
> 
> 
> On 27 January, the Council of Europe signed Resolution 2361, which states that vaccinations in EU Member States should not be mandatory. Furthermore, persons who have not been vaccinated may not be discriminated against in any way. This effectively stops the notion of
> 
> 
> 
> 
> freewestmedia.com


Council of Europe resolutions are advisory and non-binding upon member states. Note that the resolution allows vaccination certificates. I would expect that these will be issued but I very much doubt that there will be formal action by any state body to act upon them by e.g. banning non-vaxxed people from say cinemas or pubs.

However individuals might well ask if people they are expected to associate with are vaxxed. I need a plumbing job done but I will wait until I can get a plumber who can show that he's been vaxxed.


----------



## Isobella

jimenato said:


> Council of Europe resolutions are advisory and non-binding upon member states. Note that the resolution allows vaccination certificates. I would expect that these will be issued but I very much doubt that there will be formal action by any state body to act upon them by e.g. banning non-vaxxed people from say cinemas or pubs.
> 
> However individuals might well ask if people they are expected to associate with are vaxxed. I need a plumbing job done but I will wait until I can get a plumber who can show that he's been vaxxed.


Viking cruises gave just announced that passengers will be required to have been vaccinated. Like it or not I think it will come in through the back door.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jimenato said:


> Council of Europe resolutions are advisory and non-binding upon member states. Note that the resolution allows vaccination certificates. I would expect that these will be issued but I very much doubt that there will be formal action by any state body to act upon them by e.g. banning non-vaxxed people from say cinemas or pubs.
> 
> However individuals might well ask if people they are expected to associate with are vaxxed. I need a plumbing job done but I will wait until I can get a plumber who can show that he's been vaxxed.


Is it not possible that the businesses themselves will decide whether to ask for proof of vaccination or not, or is that illegal? For example a private school, a gym, a theatre, a factory....


----------



## blondebob

jimenato said:


> Council of Europe resolutions are advisory and non-binding upon member states. Note that the resolution allows vaccination certificates. I would expect that these will be issued but I very much doubt that there will be formal action by any state body to act upon them by e.g. banning non-vaxxed people from say cinemas or pubs.
> 
> However individuals might well ask if people they are expected to associate with are vaxxed. I need a plumbing job done but I will wait until I can get a plumber who can show that he's been vaxxed.


Yes agree its non binding and just advisory but is being actively discussed. But seeing the high levels of compliance and vaccines being administered in Britain I think Europe are quite happy for the U.K to be the template and see how it pans out if they do go for a "freedom pass" or Vaccine passport or whatever the U.K Gov decide to label it. But with the very slow rollout in most of Europe it may be quite a long time coming before anything is formalised across E.U States and beyond.


----------



## jimenato

Isobella said:


> Viking cruises gave just announced that passengers will be required to have been vaccinated. Like it or not I think it will come in through the back door.


Don't blame them at all. 

Considering what was happening on the cruises at the start of all this, people are going to need a lot of persuading to get back on a cruise ship. 

I wouldn't.


----------



## jimenato

Pesky Wesky said:


> Is it not possible that the businesses themselves will decide whether to ask for proof of vaccination or not, or is that illegal? For example a private school, a gym, a theatre, a factory....


I think the legalities would depend upon the circumstances. Employment law (talking about the UK) is very stiff on discrimination. Pimlico Plumbers - a big London firm - is talking about new employees being vaccinated but is not insisting that existing employees get vaxxed. I know if even the new employees stipulation is legal.

When it comes to entry to venues - again - I don't know the legalities. You can't bar people for just any reason - for instance being black. But you can bar people for many reasons or maybe even no reason. Where the vax issue fits into that I don't know.


----------



## jimenato

By the way I felt fine yesterday after my jab.

Didn't sleep too well last night and today I feel - frankly - sh1t. Achy, tired, unwell, headache. Had to go to bed for the afternoon.

That's on Astra Zeneca - OH was fine on Pfizer.

ETA - so perhaps the healthcare workers in Germany actually had a point.


----------



## Isobella

jimenato said:


> By the way I felt fine yesterday after my jab.
> 
> Didn't sleep too well last night and today I feel - frankly - sh1t. Achy, tired, unwell, headache. Had to go to bed for the afternoon.
> 
> That's on Astra Zeneca - OH was fine on Pfizer.
> 
> ETA - so perhaps the healthcare workers in Germany actually had a point.


I had the Pfizer. No problems at all. Have had a sorer arm with flu jab. A local forum had a poll and 64% said they had no symptoms at all with Astra Zeneca. If people are expecting side effects they will get them.


----------



## jimenato

Isobella said:


> I had the Pfizer. No problems at all. Have had a sorer arm with flu jab. A local forum had a poll and 64% said they had no symptoms at all with Astra Zeneca. If people are expecting side effects they will get them.


I'm well aware of the nocebo effect - but I concede that being aware of it wouldn't necessarily stop me experiencing it.

However I was very surprised that I felt so bad - wasn't expecting it at all so didn't even look at the pamphlet to see what to expect.

Having now looked at the list, what I experienced matches it exactly.

Never had a sore arm with the annual flu jab. Obviously different people have different experiences.

Certainly wouldn't have put me off having it and I will obviously have the second jab in 12 weeks - apparently any affect is worse with the second one.

A quick look around shows that side effects are quite common - this in America.



> Dan Jones, 44, nursed a sore arm after his first COVID-19 vaccine, but other than that, he felt fine.
> 
> The second dose hit the Denver doctor like a Mack truck.
> 
> “About eight hours after...I started to have symptoms like chills, headache, muscle aches, and joint pains,” he said. “That night I did not sleep very well and when I woke up the next morning, I still felt pretty poor.”
> 
> Jones, of Denver, went to work anyway and felt better the following evening. But some of his fellow doctors and nurses felt even worse.


It's not an issue - at least not for me - loads better than getting Covid. I was just surprised by it.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jimenato said:


> I'm well aware of the nocebo effect - but I concede that being aware of it wouldn't necessarily stop me experiencing it.
> 
> However I was very surprised that I felt so bad - wasn't expecting it at all so didn't even look at the pamphlet to see what to expect.
> 
> Having now looked at the list, what I experienced matches it exactly.
> 
> Never had a sore arm with the annual flu jab. Obviously different people have different experiences.
> 
> Certainly wouldn't have put me off having it and I will obviously have the second jab in 12 weeks - apparently any affect is worse with the second one.
> 
> A quick look around shows that side effects are quite common - this in America.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not an issue - at least not for me - loads better than getting Covid. I was just surprised by it.


Exactly, reporting side effects doesn't mean that the patient is complaining about it or complaining about the vaccine, it just means that they are noting side effects.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jimenato said:


> I think the legalities would depend upon the circumstances. Employment law (talking about the UK) is very stiff on discrimination. Pimlico Plumbers - a big London firm - is talking about new employees being vaccinated but is not insisting that existing employees get vaxxed. I know if even the new employees stipulation is legal.
> 
> When it comes to entry to venues - again - I don't know the legalities. You can't bar people for just any reason - for instance being black. But you can bar people for many reasons or maybe even no reason. Where the vax issue fits into that I don't know.


Seems to be a bit of a grey area...
I think it might be like here for school entry for example. I don't think childhood vaccines are given by law, but most schools will not accept a child that hasn't been vaccinated against the usual childhood diseases, and therefore...
I don't see it as discrimination. It's choice. You choose to have the vaccine or not, and all that comes with it - entry into public places or not


----------



## jimenato

lots of chat about this on the morning TV shows.

There is a feeling that vaccine certification will come in through the back door.

So for instance things like the aforementioned cruises and air travel and maybe any foreign travel will be dependent on having a vaccine certificate. Therefore some sort of certificate will have to be available. Once such a certificate is available venues will start demanding it.


Difficult to argue against I would have thought. Hardly reasonable for an objector to say '_YOU_ can't go on a cruise because_ I_ don't want to be vaccinated.


----------



## Isobella

The International Airline's Ass. Says it’s digital Covid travel pass will be ready within weeks.


----------



## kaipa

wroliveira said:


> As everything in Spain, the only thing that is consistent is the inconsistency.
> Just called 955 54 50 60 to enquiry about registering for the shot and they told me the privately insured people will be summoned by their clinics to get the shot, when their turn arrives based upon the age. How they are going to call up the people she did not know but she told me to sit tight and wait. So, no, you should not register with your local health centre.



I don't think you can register if you are private and not entitled to public healthcare. I think that people will need to wait until the system has vaccinated all public healthcare citizens then they will move to those with private healthcare. My healthcare centre knows nothing about vaccinating non registered persons. How can they?


----------



## jimenato

Isobella said:


> The International Airline's Ass. Says it’s digital Covid travel pass will be ready within weeks.


It will be interesting to see how that's going to work.


----------



## jimenato

bad post - will re-post


----------



## kaipa

Airlines wont decide countries will obviously decide. Europe will be in lock-step and unless the UK can bury the Brexit thing and concur to European formats then I cant see the passports happening. First example, which vaccines will be regarded as adequate? How long will the cert last?.Who approved the certification? It's funny how British media talk about foreign travel as being something that they decide. They seem oblivious to the fact that Spain has its bars shuts, curfews etc. They just think they will come here in July and tell Spain what's what. Sanchez has said restrictions will not be fully lifted until vaccination of full population and 50 per 100,000 is the contagion rate and that wont be until the end of summer.


----------



## blondebob

Far better in my opinion to have a "test to fly" certificate as even with vaccine you can be infectious to others to a degree and vaccine not been around long enough to quantify that degree accurately whereas test are now getting far quicker and far more accurate. Plus some countries like Spain aren't vaccinating people who have had Covid for 6 months after they have recovered so that would be a large block of people un able to travel even if they are completely healthy and not a risk to others


----------



## Overandout

Don't all private establishments in most jurisdictions have the right to refuse admission anyway?

No shop is obliged to sell me anything, no airline is obliged to fly me across the world. Based on this understanding I think that this level of "discrimination" should not be legally troblesome.

For workers however, the legal obligations are different, the duties of care are different. In common law countries for example both parties have a duty of care to the other, so if a company can demonstrate that 100% of its workforce has been offered a vaccination but 10% have refused to have it, surely when the workforce is required to return to the workplace, the company can exclude the 10% who are not complying with their duty of care to protect their co-workers? 
This will be an interesting issue to follow from a legal perspective.


----------



## jimenato

> Well said, I agree. If you don’t want it, fine. Your decision. But, I would think that countries would be well within their rights to issue vaccination certificates and insist on people having them for traveling and attending large venue events etc.





blondebob said:


> Totally unlawful, certainly not within their rights.


Which bit would be unlawful - issuing certificates or insisting on their use?


----------



## blondebob

jimenato said:


> Which bit would be unlawful - issuing certificates or insisting on their use?


All of it, part of it, who knows until it is challenged in court and a judgement made. I was only basing my statement on reading extracts from the Nuremburg Code and the UNSECO Universal Declaration on Bioethics and Human Rights. Quote as follows

*7.3 with respect to ensuring high vaccine uptake:
7.3.1 ensure that citizens are informed that the vaccination is NOT mandatory and that no one is politically, socially, or otherwise pressured to get themselves vaccinated, if they do not wish to do so themselves;
7.3.2 ensure that no one is discriminated against for not having been vaccinated, due to possible health risks or not wanting to be vaccinated;*



https://pace.coe.int/en/files/29004/html



And this paragraph from the Nuremberg Code:

_"The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential. This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, overreaching, or* other ulterior form of constraint or coercion*; and should have sufficient knowledge and comprehension of the elements of the subject matter involved as to enable him to make an understanding and enlightened decision. This latter element requires that before the acceptance of an affirmative decision by the experimental subject there should be made known to him the nature, duration, and purpose of the experiment; the method and means by which it is to be conducted; all inconveniences and hazards reasonably to be expected; and the effects upon his health or person which may possibly come from his participation in the experiment*."*_


----------



## Isobella

kaipa said:


> Airlines wont decide countries will obviously decide. Europe will be in lock-step and unless the UK can bury the Brexit thing and concur to European formats then I cant see the passports happening. First example, which vaccines will be regarded as adequate? How long will the cert last?.Who approved the certification? It's funny how British media talk about foreign travel as being something that they decide. They seem oblivious to the fact that Spain has its bars shuts, curfews etc. They just think they will come here in July and tell Spain what's what. Sanchez has said restrictions will not be fully lifted until vaccination of full population and 50 per 100,000 is the contagion rate and that wont be until the end of summer.


Very true. I was thinking this morning, as much as I would love a holiday do I really want to be somewhere where there are curfews, Hotels where the rooms aren't cleaned for days because of covid etc


----------



## Isobella

TUI says their bookings have increased 500% overnight. They would though wouldn't they.


----------



## Isobella

jimenato said:


> Which bit would be unlawful - issuing certificates or insisting on their use?


I think it would have to be tested in the courts. There are Health and safety laws to be considered too. Some workers may refuse to work with those who have not been vaccinated. We are living in strange times, the new abnormality.


----------



## blondebob

Isobella said:


> I think it would have to be tested in the courts. There are Health and safety laws to be considered too. Some workers may refuse to work with those who have not been vaccinated. We are living in strange times, the new abnormality.


Already seeing lots of civil unrest regarding curfews and current measures in many European Cities such as Amsterdam, Madrid, Paris etc but obviously not being reported in MSM


----------



## Alcalaina

Greece declared a while ago that foreign tourists will need vaccination certificates and other EU countries have followed suit.









List of EU Countries Issuing/Asking for Vaccination Certificates - SchengenVisaInfo.com


With more COVID-19 vaccines getting approved, and more people being vaccinated throughout the EU Member States and the Schengen Area Associate countries, the urge to restore travel for those vaccinated has also increased. The so-called ‘vaccination passports’ or ‘vaccination certificates’ have...



www.schengenvisainfo.com


----------



## jimenato

Isobella said:


> Very true. I was thinking this morning, as much as I would love a holiday do I really want to be somewhere where there are curfews, Hotels where the rooms aren't cleaned for days because of covid etc


Absolutely. Can't imagine why anyone would want to go at the moment what with all the restrictions - just no point.


----------



## jimenato

blondebob said:


> Already seeing lots of civil unrest regarding curfews and current measures in many European Cities such as Amsterdam, Madrid, Paris etc but obviously not being reported in MSM


Don't worry - civil unrest in all those places is being widely reported in the UK media.🙄


----------



## kaipa

Isobella said:


> TUI says their bookings have increased 500% overnight. They would though wouldn't they.



Its not difficult to increase bookings by 500% considering it must have been literally zero at some point. What really matters is year on year comparisons and I bet it is bad


----------



## blondebob

jimenato said:


> Don't worry - civil unrest in all those places is being widely reported in the UK media.🙄


My apologies must have missed any recent reports but hey if anyone would know 🙄


----------



## jimenato

blondebob said:


> All of it, part of it, who knows until it is challenged in court and a judgement made. I was only basing my statement on reading extracts from the Nuremburg Code and the UNSECO Universal Declaration on Bioethics and Human Rights. Quote as follows
> 
> *7.3 with respect to ensuring high vaccine uptake:
> 7.3.1 ensure that citizens are informed that the vaccination is NOT mandatory and that no one is politically, socially, or otherwise pressured to get themselves vaccinated, if they do not wish to do so themselves;
> 7.3.2 ensure that no one is discriminated against for not having been vaccinated, due to possible health risks or not wanting to be vaccinated;*
> 
> 
> 
> https://pace.coe.int/en/files/29004/html
> 
> 
> 
> And this paragraph from the Nuremberg Code:
> 
> _"The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential. This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, overreaching, or* other ulterior form of constraint or coercion*; and should have sufficient knowledge and comprehension of the elements of the subject matter involved as to enable him to make an understanding and enlightened decision. This latter element requires that before the acceptance of an affirmative decision by the experimental subject there should be made known to him the nature, duration, and purpose of the experiment; the method and means by which it is to be conducted; all inconveniences and hazards reasonably to be expected; and the effects upon his health or person which may possibly come from his participation in the experiment*."*_


But is any of that law in any country?

Anyway as has been mentioned countries and cruise lines are already insisting on evidence of vaccination and in the UK I've just heard that some care homes are insisting that new employees must be vaccinated - so it is happening.

Johnson has initiated a review of the issue. We shall see what happens.


----------



## blondebob

jimenato said:


> But is any of that law in any country?
> 
> Anyway as has been mentioned countries and cruise lines are already insisting on evidence of vaccination and in the UK I've just heard that some care homes are insisting that new employees must be vaccinated - so it is happening.
> 
> Johnson has initiated a review of the issue. We shall see what happens.


I guess we may see if any of it ends up in court and used as reference at a future date.


----------



## Megsmum

Care homes and medical staff are a different kettle of fish re vaccinations. We had to have certain jabs as part of occupational health criteria for employment. We didn't have to have the flu jab. Vaccine passport's may or may not come in.. personally I can't see it in the long term maybe while covid jabs are rolled out in the coming 12 months.... As someone once said. It's the economy stupid ( not you !). Tourism and aviation plus business travel huge losses for world economic recovery. It's just an opinion


----------



## Overandout

Galicia has today approved a law to make refusing to accept the vaccination an offense punishable with a fine of up to 60k euro.... 
Things are about to get interesting !


----------



## Megsmum

Overandout said:


> Galicia has today approved a law to make refusing to accept the vaccination an offense punishable with a fine of up to 60k euro....
> Things are about to get interesting !


get the popcorn ready!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

blondebob said:


> Already seeing lots of civil unrest regarding curfews and current measures in many European Cities such as Amsterdam, Madrid, Paris etc but obviously not being reported in MSM


"Unrest" the last week in Spain has little to do with Covid and everything to do with Pablo Hasél or at least it is supposedly to do with him. There seems to be a fair amount of general jumping on a bandwagon and people who are keen to join in any demonstration going, especially if there's an opportunity of burning a few bins and ransacking shops that have absolutely nothing to do with the supposed reason for demonstrating...


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> Galicia has today approved a law to make refusing to accept the vaccination an offense punishable with a fine of up to 60k euro....
> Things are about to get interesting !


And being vaccinated against possible future viruses!!


----------



## jimenato

Overandout said:


> Galicia has today approved a law to make refusing to accept the vaccination an offense punishable with a fine of up to 60k euro....
> Things are about to get interesting !


Popcorn indeed...


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Vaccine passports already in use...
World Economic Forum on LinkedIn: Don't forget your passport! 🔎 Learn more about vaccine passports | 90 comments
Some pros and cons as seen by the ever popular (hahahaha) Guardian
What are the pros and cons of Covid vaccine passports?


----------



## kaipa

The UK at the moment are focusing on this but I notice it is totally about use within UK. In other words it's about UK apps connected with NHS. So clearly it is all going to be about digital certificate to use in UK. Travelling outside of UK will be a whole different barrel of fish as clearly non EU organisations like NHS will not cut the mustard in EU anymore than the UK will allow people from Brazil in on the basis of a local Brazil app. So that means there will have to be agreements made between individual countries and the EU will clearly not allow individual member countries to decide themselves. Look at Brussels ruling yesterday about Sweden, Belgium Denmark.


----------



## Isobella

In the Telegraph this morning.

_British holidaymakers with proof of vaccination will be able to travel to Greece as early as May, under plans being discussed in Athens.

Under the fast-tracked plans Greece would be breaking from the European Union, which is pushing for a cautious approach to reopening for non-essential travel from outside the bloc.

Greece has already forged a ‘vaccine bubble’ agreement with Israel and Cyprus, meaning vaccinated people will be able to travel between the countries without the need to quarantine.

Under the UK Government’s roadmap, issued on Monday, the earliest date that international holidays will resume is May 17. Holiday bookings surged this week following the news – easyJet reported a 337 per cent boost in sales and a 630 per cent increase in bookings of easyjet holidays.

Other popular holiday destinations, including the Balearics, have made positive sounds about welcoming vaccinated UK holidaymakers from May. _


----------



## kaipa

Isobella said:


> In the Telegraph this morning.
> 
> _British holidaymakers with proof of vaccination will be able to travel to Greece as early as May, under plans being discussed in Athens.
> 
> Under the fast-tracked plans Greece would be breaking from the European Union, which is pushing for a cautious approach to reopening for non-essential travel from outside the bloc.
> 
> Greece has already forged a ‘vaccine bubble’ agreement with Israel and Cyprus, meaning vaccinated people will be able to travel between the countries without the need to quarantine.
> 
> Under the UK Government’s roadmap, issued on Monday, the earliest date that international holidays will resume is May 17. Holiday bookings surged this week following the news – easyJet reported a 337 per cent boost in sales and a 630 per cent increase in bookings of easyjet holidays.
> 
> Other popular holiday destinations, including the Balearics, have made positive sounds about welcoming vaccinated UK holidaymakers from May. _


Sounds great until you factor in the 10 day quarantine when you return to UK or have they decided to lift the quarantine?


----------



## kaipa

Personally I can see a bit of a tussle between the UK and EU over these vaccine passports. For example when are you vaccinated? After 1st dose or 2nd? Then there is the data that suggests that the first 10 days of AZ has no immunity. Then the question of how long a vaccine is considered valid. Everyone will have different standards I imagine


----------



## Isobella

kaipa said:


> Personally I can see a bit of a tussle between the UK and EU over these vaccine passports. For example when are you vaccinated? After 1st dose or 2nd? Then there is the data that suggests that the first 10 days of AZ has no immunity. Then the question of how long a vaccine is considered valid. Everyone will have different standards I imagine


 All of the vaccines take time before immunity kicks in, I had the Pfizer and I think it said 10 to 15 days on the leaflet. However, the pettiness and rubbishing about AZ won't stop. The Commission will never forget and I think they will do all they can to prevent the British being allowed in. Sad for those who have holiday homes there as they can't look elsewhere for a holiday.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

It would seem probable that the vaccine certificate or whatever proof of being vaccinated could be issued, will be accepted by countries depending on the politics of the situation just as many other issues in the pandemic have been decided. For example, Spain needs tourism as it is the base industry here, so it wouldn't be surprising if the government decided to accept tourists through that door. Another scenario could be I'll let your tourists in if you xyz...
Do rights and the taking away of rights come into it? Are the background health issues considered? Or is it really just down to economics and looking good on the political scene?


----------



## Love Karma

IMO at the end of the day the $$$ wins the day. Spain and especially the Costa's would rather British Holiday makers spending their cash here rather than back in U.K. Add to that a vast majority of whom would prefer to be holidaying in Spain than say having to endure a 2 week "staycation" in some unappetising resort like Weston-super-Mare it will be down to which Mediterranean country offers the easiest entry requirement option. But then you never know what restrictions the U.K may impose upon returning tourists...so a bit of a lottery at the moment


----------



## jimenato

We'll forget the dreadful slur in the previous post about Weston-super-Mare eh Pesky? 😂😂😂😂

It's going to be interesting to see if an international standard for certification will be developed or if it will be done piecemeal between jurisdictions - and, if a standard is developed, what would that standard comprise?

In the UK the current talk is about an NHS app which would be able to demonstrate that a holder had been either vaccinated or had tested free of covid. The thinking is that people who can't (or won't) be vaccinated would be able to have a test to prove they are safe.

I can see loads of problems with this - how soon after vaccination are you deemed to be safe and how long would it last, how long would a negative test last - how often would you need one, what if you don't have a smartphone and so on . But at least it's an attempt to overcome the 'forced vaccine by another name' objection.


----------



## blondebob

jimenato said:


> We'll forget the dreadful slur in the previous post about Weston-super-Mare eh Pesky? 😂😂😂😂
> 
> It's going to be interesting to see if an international standard for certification will be developed or if it will be done piecemeal between jurisdictions - and, if a standard is developed, what would that standard comprise?
> 
> *In the UK the current talk is about an NHS app which would be able to demonstrate that a holder had been either vaccinated or had tested free of covid*. The thinking is that people who can't (or won't) be vaccinated would be able to have a test to prove they are safe.
> 
> I can see loads of problems with this - how soon after vaccination are you deemed to be safe and how long would it last, how long would a negative test last - how often would you need one, what if you don't have a smartphone and so on . But at least it's an attempt to overcome the 'forced vaccine by another name' objection.


Word has it that Dido Harding has been given £8 billion to develop it for the Nokia 3310


----------



## wroliveira

kaipa said:


> I don't think you can register if you are private and not entitled to public healthcare. I think that people will need to wait until the system has vaccinated all public healthcare citizens then they will move to those with private healthcare. My healthcare centre knows nothing about vaccinating non registered persons. How can they?


Mine also does not know anything, but that's what I've been told when I spoke to Agencia de Salud, that we would be called up. This article says we should get registered, that's why I called them:

https://www.thelocal.es/20210203/re...cine-if-im-not-in-spains-public-health-system

It's clear that no one knows how it is supposed to work - both private and public healthcare. I am in the limbo.


----------



## kaipa

Galicia has announced a fine for anyone who refuses to be vaccinated unless for justifiable reasons.


----------



## Overandout

The law in Galica doesn't automatically make refusing the vaccine illegal, it just gives the Galician government the ability to declare that in the future. A minor point, but worth noting, today they still cannot fine anyone.
It also allows the Region to impose a lockdown, restricting people's freedome to leave their homes.
The first point of the law mentioned goes against central government recommendations but it is not very clear if it is legaly valid (constitutionally), but the second point (lockdown) does appear to try to override the Spanish constitution by bestowing the right normally reserved as a consequence of a state of exception.
I expect there will be legal challenges this new law.

Edit: By the way, these aren't temporary measure brought in under the powers given by the central governemnt under the stat of alarm to control Covid, these are permanent changes to the local legislation and will apply (unless overturned) regardless of if Covid or any other health issue.


----------



## kaipa

Here is the article








¿Se puede multar a quienes se niegan a vacunarse?


No, Galicia no ha hecho obligatoria la vacuna contra el coronavirus. Consultamos a juristas para aclarar la cuestión.



www.rtve.es


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> It would seem probable that the vaccine certificate or whatever proof of being vaccinated could be issued, will be accepted by countries depending on the politics of the situation just as many other issues in the pandemic have been decided. For example, Spain needs tourism as it is the base industry here, so it wouldn't be surprising if the government decided to accept tourists through that door. Another scenario could be I'll let your tourists in if you xyz...
> Do rights and the taking away of rights come into it? Are the background health issues considered? Or is it really just down to economics and looking good on the political scene?


Tourism is indeed vital for many areas but it comprises 20% of economic activity and Brits aren’t the largest as far as volume or spending goes. But yes, it’s a sector that can’t afford to be ignored.


----------



## mrypg9

Love Karma said:


> IMO at the end of the day the $$$ wins the day. Spain and especially the Costa's would rather British Holiday makers spending their cash here rather than back in U.K. Add to that a vast majority of whom would prefer to be holidaying in Spain than say having to endure a 2 week "staycation" in some unappetising resort like Weston-super-Mare it will be down to which Mediterranean country offers the easiest entry requirement option. But then you never know what restrictions the U.K may impose upon returning tourists...so a bit of a lottery at the moment


I would personally prefer to spend two weeks in Weston- Super- Mare than in Benidorm or Torremolinos but sobre los gustos....

Costa towns like Estepona would welcome Martians with money to spend. Brits aren’t the main source of tourist income here but those that come spend money which is sorely needed. My favourite Saturday night restaurant, a long established local favourite, buckled under thanks to the lockdown and subsequent restrictions. One of many.

Ive just read in El País that we’ve seen the highest number of weekly contagions since last March . A difficult balance between health and the economy.
Glad I’m not Pedro....


----------



## kaipa

mrypg9 said:


> I would personally prefer to spend two weeks in Weston- Super- Mare than in Benidorm or Torremolinos but sobre los gustos....
> 
> Costa towns like Estepona would welcome Martians with money to spend. Brits aren’t the main source of tourist income here but those that come spend money which is sorely needed. My favourite Saturday night restaurant, a long established local favourite, buckled under thanks to the lockdown and subsequent restrictions. One of many.
> 
> Ive just read in El País that we’ve seen the highest number of weekly contagions since last March . A difficult balance between health and the economy.
> Glad I’m not Pedro....


El pais today actually gives a figure on its front page showing contagions are actually down !!!









La crisis del coronavirus en EL PAÍS


Siga la última hora sobre la crisis del coronavirus con EL PAÍS. Mapa de propagación, avances en la investigación y todas las claves




elpais.com


----------



## xabiaxica

You can add any countries you want to for comparison. I chose our nearest European neighbours.









Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccinations - Statistics and Research


Our vaccination dataset uses the most recent official numbers from governments and health ministries worldwide. The population estimates we use to calculate per-capita metrics are all based on the last revision of the United Nations World Population Prospects. A full list of our country-specific...




ourworldindata.org


----------



## Megsmum

My village and region getting into mass vaccination now. Good news


----------



## Overandout

Even here in Madrid things are starting to happen. Several teacher friends of mine were vaccinated yesterday, or will be today. Police and firemen also started getting their vaccinations yesterday.

Personally I think they should have kept the original plan to vaccinate the older people first, but it's easy to say that with hindsight.

From what I understand, they will start with the 80 yr+ groups in the next couple of weeks.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> Even here in Madrid things are starting to happen. Several teacher friends of mine were vaccinated yesterday, or will be today. Police and firemen also started getting their vaccinations yesterday.
> 
> Personally I think they should have kept the original plan to vaccinate the older people first, but it's easy to say that with hindsight.
> 
> From what I understand, they will start with the 80 yr+ groups in the next couple of weeks.


Ohhh! Exciting! OH and daughter haven't been called yet, hope they will be soon!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiaxica said:


> View attachment 99138
> You can add any countries you want to for comparison. I chose our nearest European neighbours.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccinations - Statistics and Research
> 
> 
> Our vaccination dataset uses the most recent official numbers from governments and health ministries worldwide. The population estimates we use to calculate per-capita metrics are all based on the last revision of the United Nations World Population Prospects. A full list of our country-specific...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ourworldindata.org


I am getting more and more confused with Corona virus data... How can we be ahead of the UK in vaccinations after all the millions that the UK had given before Spain had even really started?


----------



## Joppa

Pesky Wesky said:


> I am getting more and more confused with Corona virus data... How can we be ahead of the UK in vaccinations after all the millions that the UK had given before Spain had even really started?


If you calculate the proportion of people who have received two shots, Spain compares favourably with UK.


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> I am getting more and more confused with Corona virus data... How can we be ahead of the UK in vaccinations after all the millions that the UK had given before Spain had even really started?


Spain is giving both jabs within 3 weeks of each other as recommended by the manufacturer. The UK is giving one jab to as many as possible, & leaving more like 3 months between jabs. 

So the UK has given the first dose to a huge number of people, but only 1% of the population has completed the course. 

2.6% of the population of Spain up to 25/2 has completed the course. 

Two completely different approaches & only time will tell as to which is more effective in the long run.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> Even here in Madrid things are starting to happen. Several teacher friends of mine were vaccinated yesterday, or will be today. Police and firemen also started getting their vaccinations yesterday.
> 
> Personally I think they should have kept the original plan to vaccinate the older people first, but it's easy to say that with hindsight.
> 
> From what I understand, they will start with the 80 yr+ groups in the next couple of weeks.


Which age group of teachers and of students being taught?
OH apparently has missed out on one round because the vaccine being administered is for teachers under 55 yrs of age. It's very confusing because it depends on the vaccine available, the age of the teacher, the age being taught, public or private education and the district! My daughter knows of teachers in primary/ infantil, @26 yrs of age in somewhere in the Comunidad de Madrid (I don't know which district/ town) and in public ed that have received the first vaccination...


----------



## Pesky Wesky

xabiaxica said:


> Spain is giving both jabs within 3 weeks of each other as recommended by the manufacturer. The UK is giving one jab to as many as possible, & leaving more like 3 months between jabs.
> 
> So the UK has given the first dose to a huge number of people, but only 1% of the population has completed the course.
> 
> 2.6% of the population of Spain up to 25/2 has completed the course.
> 
> Two completely different approaches & only time will tell as to which is more effective in the long run.


How did you get the graph that you posted? Can't find the option to get the info presented in that way.


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> How did you get the graph that you posted? Can't find the option to get the info presented in that way.


On here. Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccinations - Statistics and Research

You have to scroll down a bit. You can choose which countries you want to compare, but this gives the countries I saved.


----------



## Isobella

The Uk has done 790,000 2nd doses. Seems to be catching up, I have my second dose soon. Don’t know if it is a good strategy or not, time will tell. The rate of cases per hundred thousand are lower than France or Spain now.


----------



## Isobella

An interesting article whatever way you think.








La vacuna de AstraZeneca: los obstáculos que ensombrecieron una historia de éxito


Errores, malentendidos, desinformación y el “nacionalismo de vacunas” han puesto en duda el remedio contra la pandemia en el que más confianza depositaron los gobiernos europeos




elpais.com


----------



## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> Which age group of teachers and of students being taught?
> OH apparently has missed out on one round because the vaccine being administered is for teachers under 55 yrs of age. It's very confusing because it depends on the vaccine available, the age of the teacher, the age being taught, public or private education and the district! My daughter knows of teachers in primary/ infantil, @26 yrs of age in somewhere in the Comunidad de Madrid (I don't know which district/ town) and in public ed that have received the first vaccination...


I know of three, all of them are late 40s. One teaches all ages of kids (special needs), the others teach ESO.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> I know of three, all of them are late 40s. One teaches all ages of kids (special needs), the others teach ESO.


Thanks. Originally they said preschool was going to be first because the children don't wear masks, but I think that idea was chucked... My daughter said the centre (private) sent in the data last week and OH isn't very hopeful as he's in FP otherwise known as the Olvidados; they are never included in any plans!


----------



## Isobella

Teachers, Firemen, Police. No one ever mentions supermarket workers who have been front line for almost a year, cleaners of trains, buses etc.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Isobella said:


> Teachers, Firemen, Police. No one ever mentions supermarket workers who have been front line for almost a year, cleaners of trains, buses etc.


I agree!


----------



## Lynn R

What do you make of this report saying that foreigners in Andalucia who don't have health cover in the public system will not be vaccinated? Not only does it refer to people who have not regularised their situation, but neither does it make any provision, as far as I can see, for foreigners who are legally resident in Spain and registered as such and who have taken out private health insurance as a condition of their residency (early retired people mostly, I suppose). Is it just fake news, or can they really be saying people will need to contact their Consulate's for advice and return to their own country to be vaccinated? 









Los extranjeros sin sanidad pública tendrán que vacunarse en sus países


La Junta de Andalucía señala que los foráneos que no tengan regularizada su situación en España, deberán acudir a los consulados correspondientes para regularizarla




www.malagahoy.es


----------



## blondebob

Concerning article for those who want this so called jab.


----------



## jimenato

...and of course those who are resident in Spain are not eligible for free treatment on the NHS either.


----------



## xabiaxica

jimenato said:


> ...and of course those who are resident in Spain are not eligible for free treatment on the NHS either.


...unless they have UK issued S1s.

Of course in that case they would get the jab in Spain, anyway.


----------



## xabiaxica

From here; Our World in Data. You can choose to compare with any other country. I chose our geographically nearest European neighbours.


----------



## kaipa

I have a feeling that the number of persons only on private healthcare provision is very small compared to the 50 million population. Spanish with private healthcare will still be registered on the system so no problem for them. The problem is for non retired expats who are not working and I imagine they will either have to wait a long time or return to UK for Jab. It just isn't a big enough thing for Spain to be concerned about given it has only done 2 % of population so far.


----------



## jimenato

That's a great site!

Compare with the same but for at least one dose.

It remains to be seen who's got it right - we may never know. I think I'm happy with what the UK has done - it's emerging that one dose gives much more protection than was originally thought.

I wonder if Spain will accept visitors who have had one dose or will require both.


----------



## xabiaxica

jimenato said:


> That's a great site!
> 
> Compare with the same but for at least one dose.
> 
> It remains to be seen who's got it right - we may never know. I think I'm happy with what the UK has done - it's emerging that one dose gives much more protection than was originally thought.
> 
> I wonder if Spain will accept visitors who have had one dose or will require both.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 99185


Yes, it does remain to be seen as to which approach works best!

The UK should be giving second doses by the end of the month, going by their 3 month between doses plan.


----------



## blondebob

jimenato said:


> That's a great site!
> 
> Compare with the same but for at least one dose.
> 
> It remains to be seen who's got it right - we may never know. I think I'm happy with what the UK has done - it's emerging that one dose gives much more protection than was originally thought.
> 
> I wonder if Spain will accept visitors who have had one dose or will require both.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 99185


And yet the U.K is still in Lockdown


----------



## xabiaxica

blondebob said:


> And yet the U.K is still in Lockdown


Vaccination doesn't stop anyone spreading the virus. It stops those vaccinated becoming as sick as they would without it.


----------



## blondebob

xabiaxica said:


> *Vaccination doesn't stop anyone spreading the virus*. It stops those vaccinated becoming as sick as they would without it.


So you're saying It has No effect on the virus's transmission from person to person?


----------



## xabiaxica

blondebob said:


> So you're saying It has No effect on the virus's transmission from person to person?


Mostly it protects those who have been vaccinated, not those who haven't. Of course if you're protected, you're less likely to pass it on, but it doesn't stop anyone who catches it, vaccinated or not, from passing it on to others.



> What are the benefits of getting vaccinated?
> 
> The COVID-19 vaccines produce protection against the disease, as a result of developing an immune response to the SARS-Cov-2 virus. Developing immunity through vaccination means there is a reduced risk of developing the illness and its consequences. This immunity helps you fight the virus if exposed. Getting vaccinated may also protect people around you, because if you are protected from getting infected and from disease, you are less likely to infect someone else. This is particularly important to protect people at increased risk for severe illness from COVID-19, such as healthcare providers, older or elderly adults, and people with other medical conditions.


----------



## Isobella

xabiaxica said:


> Yes, it does remain to be seen as to which approach works best!
> 
> The UK should be giving second doses by the end of the month, going by their 3 month between doses plan.


the Uk has already given 2% of the population 2nd doses. SKY. 2nd doses were given within 3 weeks around my part of Sussex for nearly 2 months. They honoured those given appointments.


----------



## blondebob

xabiaxica said:


> Mostly it protects those who have been vaccinated, not those who haven't. Of course if you're protected, you're less likely to pass it on, but it doesn't stop anyone who catches it, vaccinated or not, from passing it on to others.


So if the vulnerable are* protected*, which in the U.K the vast majority of people in this group are as they have now had the vaccine then why are they planning to vaccinate fit and healthy under 40's who the great majority are virtually unaffected by the virus and at the worst experience symptoms similar to a cold for a few days? Also why are they vaccinating over 3 million people that have had the virus and have recovered so have immunity and have proven that their own immune system was more than adequate to fight of the virus all on its own so no reason to think it wont if they come into contact with the virus again!


----------



## xabiaxica

Isobella said:


> *the Uk has already given 2% of the population 2nd doses.* SKY. 2nd doses were given within 3 weeks around my part of Sussex for nearly 2 months. They honoured those given appointments.


*Not according to the official published figures.* 


Of course, in some areas things are moving faster than others, just like everywhere else, & soem of thoise those who were originally given a 3 week gap had those honoured. 

Of course if the UK manages to keep up the fast rate of vaccination that it's managed to date, with the second doses, it won't be long before they get to 20%!


----------



## jimenato

blondebob said:


> So if the vulnerable are* protected*, which in the U.K the vast majority of people in this group are as they have now had the vaccine then why are they planning to vaccinate fit and healthy under 40's who the great majority are virtually unaffected by the virus and at the worst experience symptoms similar to a cold for a few days? Also why are they vaccinating over 3 million people that have had the virus and have recovered so have immunity and have proven that their own immune system was more than adequate to fight of the virus all on its own so no reason to think it wont if they come into contact with the virus again!


You need to be asking the experts those questions.

However if only 2% have had both doses the vulnerable able are not yet fully protected.

Also - once bitten twice shy. In the UK lockdown was relaxed in the summer only to be hit by a second wave which was worse than the first. They want to be sure that doesn't happen again I guess.


----------



## Isobella

xabiaxica said:


> *Not according to the official published figures.*
> 
> 
> Of course, in some areas things are moving faster than others, just like everywhere else, & soem of thoise those who were originally given a 3 week gap had those honoured.
> 
> Of course if the UK manages to keep up the fast rate of vaccination that it's managed to date, with the second doses, it won't be long before they get to 20%!


SKY news has a rolling figure at the top of the screen 24 hours and that is what it was showing . Just checked again time *11.46

Total vaccinated 22,392,883 40.5% of the adult population
Total received 2nd dose 1,034,068 2% of the adult population*


----------



## blondebob

jimenato said:


> You need to be asking the experts those questions.
> 
> *However if only 2% have had both doses the vulnerable able are not yet fully protected.*
> 
> Also - once bitten twice shy. In the UK lockdown was relaxed in the summer only to be hit by a second wave which was worse than the first. They want to be sure that doesn't happen again I guess.


Just seen the figures earlier in thread and TBH didn't realise that the U.K was behind Spain, Germany, France etc in the full vaccine treatment given figures as all headlines in U.K are about how they are miles ahead of everybody except Israel...... so a fair way to go yet to protect the U.K vulnerable then.


----------



## Isobella

blondebob said:


> And yet the U.K is still in Lockdown


Sort of. We are able to meet 1 friend outdoors next week ha ha. Seriously I think many ignore the rules. They still meet in their social bubbles inside their houses. Unless they live close to curtain twitchers. Stasi out, mainly at weekends, they were pulling in some drivers on the main routes to Brighton last Sunday.


----------



## blondebob

Isobella said:


> Sort of. We are able to meet 1 friend outdoors next week ha ha. Seriously I think many ignore the rules. They still meet in their social bubbles inside their houses. Unless they live close to curtain twitchers. Stasi out, mainly at weekends, they were pulling in some drivers on the main routes to Brighton last Sunday.


😅 But good to see figures dropping dramatically in the U.K pretty much naturally then


----------



## jimenato

I think it's true that SOME people ignore SOME rules. Or possibly that EVERYONE breaks the odd rule from time to time.

However in general the rules are pretty well adhered to.

An exception to this lately is amongst the young. We went for an early evening walk yesterday and there were groups of teenagers playing football, skateboarding together. 

Still - come Monday they'll all be sitting together in classrooms so you can hardly blame them.


----------



## Chopera

blondebob said:


> Just seen the figures earlier in thread and TBH didn't realise that the U.K was behind Spain, Germany, France etc in the full vaccine treatment given figures as all headlines in U.K are about how they are miles ahead of everybody except Israel...... so a fair way to go yet to protect the U.K vulnerable then.


The UK calculated it would save more lives by giving twice as many people just one dose to begin with, with each recipient having say 90% protection, rather than giving half as many people 2 doses, with each recipient having say 99% protection. Each recipient in the UK will still get the second dose eventually, but they have extended the period between doses in order to give the first dose to more people. I think Germany might be about to do the same.


----------



## Alcalaina

kaipa said:


> I have a feeling that the number of persons only on private healthcare provision is very small compared to the 50 million population. Spanish with private healthcare will still be registered on the system so no problem for them. The problem is for non retired expats who are not working and I imagine they will either have to wait a long time or return to UK for Jab. It just isn't a big enough thing for Spain to be concerned about given it has only done 2 % of population so far.


Would it make sense for them to sign on the convenio especial for a while and get the vaccine that way?


----------



## snikpoh

Alcalaina said:


> Would it make sense for them to sign on the convenio especial for a while and get the vaccine that way?


It isn't available everywhere. They could, however, get a temporary health card just for the purposes of getting a vaccine - that's what some areas are doing.

Going back to UK is NOT an option


----------



## Love Karma

snikpoh said:


> It isn't available everywhere. They could, however, get a temporary health card just for the purposes of getting a vaccine - that's what some areas are doing.
> 
> Going back to UK is NOT an option





jimenato said:


> I think it's true that SOME people ignore SOME rules. Or possibly that EVERYONE breaks the odd rule from time to time.
> 
> However in general the rules are pretty well adhered to.
> 
> An exception to this lately is amongst the young. We went for an early evening walk yesterday and there were groups of teenagers playing football, skateboarding together.
> 
> Still - come Monday they'll all be sitting together in classrooms so you can hardly blame them.


I think you'll find the rule breaking is not limited to youngsters 😅









About 40% of over-80s in England broke Covid rules after jab


ONS survey shows two in five people met up with someone indoors when not permitted




www.theguardian.com


----------



## Alcalaina

snikpoh said:


> It isn't available everywhere. They could, however, get a temporary health card just for the purposes of getting a vaccine - that's what some areas are doing.
> 
> Going back to UK is NOT an option


I think it is available everywhere now. How do you get a temporary card, do you have any more info?


----------



## Joppa

Alcalaina said:


> I think it is available everywhere now. How do you get a temporary card, do you have any more info?


This is info from Nerja Foreigners Department:
'VACCINATION. REGISTERING AT THE HEALTH CENTRE IF YOU DON’T HAVE A MEDICAL CARD “TARJETA SANITARIA” Nerja health centre is phoning all those registered with a medical card “tarjeta sanitaria” for vaccination. Now they are calling the 80 age group. If you don’t have a “tarjeta sanitaria” You may have a green residencia or TIE and are not registered on the Spanish health system due to some of the following reasons: - You haven’t registered your S1 pension medical form yet. - You are not working and not in liable age to obtain a S1 pension form. - You are not a European citizen. - Several others. *You can register at a public health centre for a certain time (possibly for 3 months) and have vaccination by doing the following*: First, make an appointment for the health centre by phoning any of these 2 numbers: - Nerja health centre 951 28 96 62 Monday to Thursday from 8 am to 8 pm and Friday from 8 am to 2 pm. (This number can frequently be occupied) or - Social security appointment centre “salud responde” 955 54 50 60 open 24 hours during the 365 days of the year. Give your details: name, NIE or passport, date of birth (address)… When asked what the appointment is for say “gestiones administrativas”. When you go to the health centre also called “ambulatorio” you will ask to register with a doctor and must present the following: - Town hall padron certificate called “volante” dated within the last 3 months - Green residencia card / sheet or the new TIE residence card. - Passport. - The S1 or the blue European card.,


----------



## Lynn R

I don't think this is going to do anything to dispel misgivings in Europe about the Astra Zeneca vaccine.









Austria paraliza la vacunación con un lote de Astrazeneca tras la muerte de una mujer


Una mujer de 49 años muere al sufrir un trastorno grave en la coagulación de la sangre, después de haber recibido una dosis de la vacuna de Astrazeneca




www.economiadigital.es


----------



## Isobella

Lynn R said:


> I don't think this is going to do anything to dispel misgivings in Europe about the Astra Zeneca vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Austria paraliza la vacunación con un lote de Astrazeneca tras la muerte de una mujer
> 
> 
> Una mujer de 49 años muere al sufrir un trastorno grave en la coagulación de la sangre, después de haber recibido una dosis de la vacuna de Astrazeneca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.economiadigital.es


Perhaps they will keep their hand off other countries orders. UK is supplying the Caribbean countries for free.


----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## Isobella

xabiaxica said:


> View attachment 99253
> View attachment 99254


SKY is saying 3% of adults received 2nd dose and will now rise rapidly.
EU negotiating to manufacture Sputnik in 4 countries including Spain.


----------



## blondebob

Almost 4 months in with Vaccines since they became available and 3.4% tops the statistics........whooopeee dooo.......


----------



## kaipa

I know it seems an irrational fear but the very thought of DVT or blood clots and strokes from the AZ kind of scares me. I know it is statistically very very low something could happen but once the genie is out the bag it's hard to get it back. In other words given the choice I would definitely opt for one of the others!!!


----------



## CltFlyboy

We got our first Pfizer jab last week, thank goodness. I did have a decent headache and was tired for a few days, but that's it. Can't wait to get more people vaccinated, but around here there is a pretty large number of people who "don't believe" in it and think COVID is a complete hoax. SMH.


----------



## xabiaxica

Isobella said:


> SKY is saying 3% of adults received 2nd dose and will now rise rapidly.
> EU negotiating to manufacture Sputnik in 4 countries including Spain.


Maybe it's up to 3% now. The latest figures there are for 13/3.


----------



## xabiaxica

Love Karma said:


> I think you'll find the rule breaking is not limited to youngsters 😅
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> About 40% of over-80s in England broke Covid rules after jab
> 
> 
> ONS survey shows two in five people met up with someone indoors when not permitted
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


Definitely not.

A local Brit bar posted photos on their FB profile on Saturday evening, thanking all who had supported them that day. Then shared it on a local group.

The bar & patrons were torn to shreds by horrified locals on the group upon seeing the photos. Several saying that they were going to report the bar to the police. 

I don't think anyone was under 50. Not a mask between them, including staff. Tables close together & more than 4 to a table (which is the legal maximum) & dancing - which is also not permitted.

By the end of the day Sunday the photos had been removed from the bar FB profile. Rumour has it that they have 'had a visit' from the police. 

------------
In Coín, a coach trip 'company' is/was planning a coach trip to Gibraltar for shopping this week. The usual age group on those trips is on the more mature side. They were advertising 30 places on the coach.

The trip has been removed from their page, perhaps because of the many people posting on the page that such a trip would be illegal many times over under current regulations. 

It definitely isn't just (or even mostly ?) youngsters who ignore the rules.


----------



## Isobella

xabiaxica said:


> Definitely not.
> 
> A local Brit bar posted photos on their FB profile on Saturday evening, thanking all who had supported them that day. Then shared it on a local group.
> 
> The bar & patrons were torn to shreds by horrified locals on the group upon seeing the photos. Several saying that they were going to report the bar to the police.
> 
> I don't think anyone was under 50. Not a mask between them, including staff. Tables close together & more than 4 to a table (which is the legal maximum) & dancing - which is also not permitted.
> 
> By the end of the day Sunday the photos had been removed from the bar FB profile. Rumour has it that they have 'had a visit' from the police.
> 
> ------------
> In Coín, a coach trip 'company' is/was planning a coach trip to Gibraltar for shopping this week. The usual age group on those trips is on the more mature side. They were advertising 30 places on the coach.
> 
> The trip has been removed from their page, perhaps because of the many people posting on the page that such a trip would be illegal many times over under current regulations.
> 
> It definitely isn't just (or even mostly ?) youngsters who ignore the rules.


A party of more than 200 was broken up last week, think it was Cadiz. They would have been young.

Recently there has been another of those living in the Sun programmes on Brits TV. fairly up to date. Mostly filmed last summer. Amazing even when on TV they were not keeping to rules. A brewery running trips showed around 12 people shoulder to shoulder watching the process, about 2 wore masks. All seemed really strange.


----------



## Barriej

xabiaxica said:


> Definitely not.
> 
> A local Brit bar posted photos on their FB profile on Saturday evening, thanking all who had supported them that day. Then shared it on a local group.
> 
> The bar & patrons were torn to shreds by horrified locals on the group upon seeing the photos. Several saying that they were going to report the bar to the police.
> 
> I don't think anyone was under 50. Not a mask between them, including staff. Tables close together & more than 4 to a table (which is the legal maximum) & dancing - which is also not permitted.
> 
> By the end of the day Sunday the photos had been removed from the bar FB profile. Rumour has it that they have 'had a visit' from the police.
> 
> ------------
> In Coín, a coach trip 'company' is/was planning a coach trip to Gibraltar for shopping this week. The usual age group on those trips is on the more mature side. They were advertising 30 places on the coach.
> 
> The trip has been removed from their page, perhaps because of the many people posting on the page that such a trip would be illegal many times over under current regulations.
> 
> It definitely isn't just (or even mostly ?) youngsters who ignore the rules.


Have to agree there.
We have a club near here for retirees and we joined because they have some good trips out.
90% are over 75 and they all still meet up, they have a closed FB group and just after Christmas at least 4 members had covid, contracted it seems from a gathering they had at someones villa. Two of them have since died and they are still planning meet ups. For info me n the wife are late 50's

Ive stopped all notifications from the group and even spoke to a friend of ours last week, who said they didn't seem bothered even with being reported. 
Old people eh, worse than kids!!! 

And to top it all off none of them has had a jab yet either.
Also (some are now illegal immigrants as they never bothered to become resident) but thats another issue.


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> I know it seems an irrational fear but the very thought of DVT or blood clots and strokes from the AZ kind of scares me. I know it is statistically very very low something could happen but once the genie is out the bag it's hard to get it back. In other words given the choice I would definitely opt for one of the others!!!


as someone with a blood clotting disorder I will be having a conversation with my oncologist on Wednesday BUT AZ and Pfizer have both been shown to have clotting issues as side effects.. AZ After first dose PPfizer after the second dose.. I am going to take a leap of assumption and say I suspect most of the covid vaccines may have the same issue. 

I’m feeling a little apprehensive about it


----------



## Chopera

My understanding is that there is no evidence at all for increased risks of blood clots from either vaccine. The number of cases of blood clots after receiving the vaccine is in line with the number of blood clots that would occur anyway, even without the vaccine.


----------



## kaipa

blondebob said:


> Almost 4 months in with Vaccines since they became available and 3.4% tops the statistics........whooopeee dooo.......


----------



## kaipa

I see that today Spain have suspended AZ for 15 days. Still no hard evidence but the fact that there have been some reports of unusual deaths linked to clots in young health people means they have to be reported and investigated. AZ distribution is poor in EU so I wouldn't be surprised if the simply side line it and go for the other vaccines. A big worrying for Spain is that the downward curve of the virus seems to have stabilised with a slight increase in some communities. This will play havoc with the attempt to open up for tourism in the coming months.


----------



## Overandout

It was pointed out recently (on La Sexta) that although all of the vaccines have both officially recognised side effects and also some additional unverified ones the big difference with the AZ one though is a major one.

Price.

Is it a big coincidence that the one getting all the bad press is the cheapest one and the one supposedly being sold on a non-profit basis? No, surely not... nobody would do that, would they?


----------



## Chopera

Overandout said:


> It was pointed out recently (on La Sexta) that although all of the vaccines have both officially recognised side effects and also some additional unverified ones the big difference with the AZ one though is a major one.
> 
> Price.
> 
> Is it a big coincidence that the one getting all the bad press is the cheapest one and the one supposedly being sold on a non-profit basis? No, surely not... nobody would do that, would they?


Possibly, although I tend to think it's politically motivated. Germany and France have elections on the horizon and they might worry they'll be judged by how effective their vaccine rollouts are. If they are behind then it's rather convenient for them to say they are being cautious about potential side effects on people's health, even if there is no scientific evidence for those side effects.


----------



## Overandout

Chopera said:


> Possibly, although I tend to think it's politically motivated. Germany and France have elections on the horizon and they might worry they'll be judged by how effective their vaccine rollouts are. If they are behind then it's rather convenient for them to say they are being cautious about potential side effects on people's health, even if there is no scientific evidence for those side effects.


True, but a lot of doctors seem to think this is not a medical issue.

Oral contraceptives have apparently 5 times the risk of clotting than the alleged AZ vaccine effect, and nobody is stopping the sale of thise...


----------



## kaipa

I dont think there is any conspiracy thing going on. Experts say that all unusual reactions are reported and then investigated and this will occur before any political or media involvement. The AZ issue has gained momentum as cases occurred in different EU countries and this information will automatically be collated by EU scientists working on EU databases. By the time politicians have got hold of this the process will already be underway. The UK will only be relying heavily on it's own data. The real problem is when non scientists get hold of all this- that's when everything gets distorted and manipulated!!


----------



## Overandout

Conspiracy is a bit strong I agree, but reading your post and substituting "non scientists" with "journalists who are in the pockets of politicians" it also makes sense.


----------



## Isobella

Overandout said:


> True, but a lot of doctors seem to think this is not a medical issue.
> 
> Oral contraceptives have apparently 5 times the risk of clotting than the alleged AZ vaccine effect, and nobody is stopping the sale of thise...


Good point. Remember all the scare stories because I took it for around 20 years. Lots of claims about HRT causing breast cancer too.


----------



## Isobella

xabiaxica said:


> Definitely not.
> 
> A local Brit bar posted photos on their FB profile on Saturday evening, thanking all who had supported them that day. Then shared it on a local group.
> 
> The bar & patrons were torn to shreds by horrified locals on the group upon seeing the photos. Several saying that they were going to report the bar to the police.
> 
> I don't think anyone was under 50. Not a mask between them, including staff. Tables close together & more than 4 to a table (which is the legal maximum) & dancing - which is also not permitted.
> 
> By the end of the day Sunday the photos had been removed from the bar FB profile. Rumour has it that they have 'had a visit' from the police.
> 
> ------------
> In Coín, a coach trip 'company' is/was planning a coach trip to Gibraltar for shopping this week. The usual age group on those trips is on the more mature side. They were advertising 30 places on the coach.
> 
> The trip has been removed from their page, perhaps because of the many people posting on the page that such a trip would be illegal many times over under current regulations.
> 
> It definitely isn't just (or even mostly ?) youngsters who ignore the rules.


Did anyone see this? 773 young people at this party.









Video | Police break up illegal party attended by 733 people in 'flagrant breach' of Covid rules


The National Police and Local Police officers evicted 733 people from a party on Saturday afternoon at a hotel leisure complex in Linares in the Andalusian province of Jan.




www.surinenglish.com


----------



## kaipa

It seems rather strange that as we near the summer tourist season the two Comunidades with the lowest contagion levels are apparently Valencia and the Baleares. Only a month ago Valencia was one of the hardest hit with talk of extreme restrictions being needed. Now we find that both communities are saying they are safe for tourists. Apparently Germans are due to start arriving in Majorca for Semana Santa whilst the rest of Spain will impose travel restrictions between communities!!. So basically ( much as I hate to admit it) many of our rights are dependent on our economic status. Spain balances its economic requirements by effectively asking some of its citizens to forgo their rights to help its bloated tourist sector.


----------



## Overandout

But we never see the logic behind the restrictions, sometimes there is medical reasoning which we just don't understand or follow.
The "outcry" last year was that it was ridiculous that two people who shared a bed could not get up and go out in the same car, but the logic of the restriction was to make the measure policeable. This was lost on many though.

That said, I am seeing more and more relaxed attitudes to gatherings, mask wearing and social distancing which I think, if policed better, would have a better effect in controlling the pandemic than stopping a family going to their second home just because it is on the other side of an imaginary line drawn on a map.


----------



## Isobella

I am surprised that m


kaipa said:


> It seems rather strange that as we near the summer tourist season the two Comunidades with the lowest contagion levels are apparently Valencia and the Baleares. Only a month ago Valencia was one of the hardest hit with talk of extreme restrictions being needed. Now we find that both communities are saying they are safe for tourists. Apparently Germans are due to start arriving in Majorca for Semana Santa whilst the rest of Spain will impose travel restrictions between communities!!. So basically ( much as I hate to admit it) many of our rights are dependent on our economic status. Spain balances its economic requirements by effectively asking some of its citizens to forgo their rights to help its bloated tourist sector.


I am surprised that Mallorca would want to see German tourists in Semana Santa. Cases are spiking there and talk of a new wave.


----------



## kaipa

Now just seen a report on the Spanish news about young parisians travelling to Madrid to party over the weekends. As Paris has severe curfews etc Madrid is seen as a place where you can drink ( plus illegal gatherings) etc. They even offer free PCR tests at the airports!. Of course Madrid council dont mind as they oppose the national restrictions and neither do the bar owners and hotels but at a time where infections are rapidly increasing in Paris not to mention Madrid having the highest infection rate in Spain you can see how various policies are pushed above others.


----------



## Barriej

kaipa said:


> It seems rather strange that as we near the summer tourist season the two Comunidades with the lowest contagion levels are apparently Valencia and the Baleares. Only a month ago Valencia was one of the hardest hit with talk of extreme restrictions being needed. Now we find that both communities are saying they are safe for tourists. Apparently Germans are due to start arriving in Majorca for Semana Santa whilst the rest of Spain will impose travel restrictions between communities!!. So basically ( much as I hate to admit it) many of our rights are dependent on our economic status. Spain balances its economic requirements by effectively asking some of its citizens to forgo their rights to help its bloated tourist sector.


There were a few 'extreme' measures, all large towns with a population over 50,000 were closed to outsiders at weekends, lots of small towns were also closed off. In Polop we had a spike in cases at the local OAP home, this led to everything closing except food shops and the Police were everywhere. I got stopped 3 times and warned once because I needed petrol and the nearest to home is about 3km away.
Its only through these measures that we are now opening again.
Parts of Madrid never closed down, the bars stayed open.

I wouldnt say that Benidorm has said its safe to welcome them back, agreed they are marking out the beach again for the squares and have restricted access to the edge of the sea for walkers only. 
If anything most of the hotels have said they wont reopen before June.

Went for a walk today up to Albir Lighthouse, it wasn't that busy, but quite a few people didn't have masks on and most of these were 'older' people. I'm so used to wearing one now, we stopped for an ice cream last week as they had reopened and forgot I was wearing one and tried to push the spoon through it  The wife laughed.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> Now just seen a report on the Spanish news about young parisians travelling to Madrid to party over the weekends. As Paris has severe curfews etc Madrid is seen as a place where you can drink ( plus illegal gatherings) etc. They even offer free PCR tests at the airports!. Of course Madrid council dont mind as they oppose the national restrictions and neither do the bar owners and hotels but at a time where infections are rapidly increasing in Paris not to mention Madrid having the highest infection rate in Spain you can see how various policies are pushed above others.


Yes, and it's not media hype, central Madrid really is seeing a huge number of French tourists because they can come here and party. A lot of people I know have remarked upon it. It doesn't make any sense at all, but that doesn't mean to say it'll stop unfortunately.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Barriej said:


> There were a few 'extreme' measures, all large towns with a population over 50,000 were closed to outsiders at weekends, lots of small towns were also closed off. In Polop we had a spike in cases at the local OAP home, this led to everything closing except food shops and the Police were everywhere. I got stopped 3 times and warned once because I needed petrol and the nearest to home is about 3km away.
> Its only through these measures that we are now opening again.
> Parts of Madrid never closed down, the bars stayed open.


That's great and is what needs to be done as unfortunately we have seen that if rules are not enforced by police presence then it's as if they didn't exist for many people. We live outside Madrid and various towns around us and actually the town we live in have been closed at different times. OH and my daughter go into the city every day to work (you are allowed to go to work, but have to have a letter authorizing your movement) and not once since September have they been checked, not once. It's a disgrace.


----------



## Overandout

I'm not arguing about what has been posted, but a lot of those complaining about the French youngsters' behavior and activities in Madrid need to step back and take a look at the Spanish ones. The French are not doing anything worse than the Spanish, but because they're French.....


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Overandout said:


> I'm not arguing about what has been posted, but a lot of those complaining about the French youngsters' behavior and activities in Madrid need to step back and take a look at the Spanish ones. The French are not doing anything worse than the Spanish, but because they're French.....


Talking about one sector doesn't mean you are ignoring or in favour of another.


----------



## Overandout

Pesky Wesky said:


> Talking about one sector doesn't mean you are ignoring or in favour of another.


True, and sorry if it sounded like my comment was aimed at you or other posters on here, it wasn't. But I have been in several conversations at work when colleagues have made some quite rude and xenophobic remarks about the "pu++s franceses de mi++da" when they themselves are in an open plan office all day long with no mask on.... but of course the rules don't apply to them. Rant over.


----------



## Megsmum

Overandout said:


> True, and sorry if it sounded like my comment was aimed at you or other posters on here, it wasn't. But I have been in several conversations at work when colleagues have made some quite rude and xenophobic remarks about the "pu++s franceses de mi++da" when they themselves are in an open plan office all day long with no mask on.... but of course the rules don't apply to them. Rant over.


This is similar to posts on another forum for instance based in the UK
IE

we went to the beach/park/lake. We couldn’t believe how many people were there... how ridiculous.... errr you were there... but you don’t count


went to asda/garden centre etc etc.... We couldn’t believe how many people were there... how ridiculous.... errr you were there... but you don’t count

Human nature, people don’t recognise themselves as doing wrong.. only others


----------



## Chopera

Funny I remember when this kicked off a few people in Madrid I knew were complaining about the Chinese shopkeepers supposedly bringing the virus over with them. Then when they went back to their villages last summer, villages that had been free of covid but had still been locked down, the locals complained about all those Madrileños bringing the virus with them. It just goes round in circles. People complaining about other people's movements while busily planning their summer holidays.


----------



## kaipa

Watching La 1 news this morning. 3 Spanish have been reported with blood clots and one ( young doctor in malaga) has died. Plus a report saying protection of vaccine is thought to be 6 months for older persons meaning that a second round of vaccination needs to start in the summer whilst they will still be struggling to deliver first vaccine. Repuntes in some communidades. Melt down in politics with elections in may in Madrid. Oh yeah...and its going to get cold with rain. Went back to bed!!!


----------



## Alcalaina

The anti-AstraZeneca movement has really taken hold here. After the teachers in the town were vaccinated a couple of weeks ago, six had side effects so bad they had to take the next day off work. Now they all think it will give them blood clots. I really wish the govt would release it to anyone willing to take this miniscule risk instead of putting it into cold storage!


----------



## kaipa

The EMA should be releasing its report today and all signs seem to indicate that the risks do not outweigh advantages. Unfortunately that isn't going to help. They need to basically say that there is no link or at least no more than any other vaccine 
If they dont then they are effectively saying it can cause clots and that will mean people wont use it. 
Also something a bit weird about the UK government announcing shortages in the AZ vaccine - it's as if they are expecting something to happen and are buttering up the population for bad news. Just the way that ministers are popping up all over the place saying that it will have minimal effect- it comes across as if they know something is happening with AZ


----------



## blondebob

More worrying examples coming to the fore









Dos policías de Cádiz, con trastornos circulatorios tras ser vacunados con AstraZeneca


Los dos agentes nacionales de la Comisaría Provincial han tenido que acudir de urgencia al médico aquejados de una parestesia en la planta del pie y una tromboflebitis en una pierna, respectivamente



www.lavozdigital.es


----------



## Chopera

Looks like we're getting to the situation where any case of blood clots after receiving a vaccine will make the headlines. And any case of blood clots without receiving a vaccine, or because of covid-related complications will go unreported.


----------



## kaipa

I see the Spanish news are running these stories about the teacher in malaga and the police. No idea what to make of it but unless they categorically rule out any link there is going to be a real problem. Strange how UK have not reported a single case of clotting after AZ vaccine


----------



## Alcalaina

kaipa said:


> The EMA should be releasing its report today and all signs seem to indicate that the risks do not outweigh advantages. Unfortunately that isn't going to help. They need to basically say that there is no link or at least no more than any other vaccine
> If they dont then they are effectively saying it can cause clots and that will mean people wont use it.
> Also something a bit weird about the UK government announcing shortages in the AZ vaccine - it's as if they are expecting something to happen and are buttering up the population for bad news. Just the way that ministers are popping up all over the place saying that it will have minimal effect- it comes across as if they know something is happening with AZ


I assumed the drop in supply to the UK was merely because AZ promised to divert more supplies to the EU after all the fuss earlier in the year. They've also got obligations to CoVax,

But it doesn't matter how many times the EMA says there is no link - the WHO has already said this - once the idea is out there, people who are susceptible to conspiracy theories won't believe it.


----------



## Isobella

kaipa said:


> I see the Spanish news are running these stories about the teacher in malaga and the police. No idea what to make of it but unless they categorically rule out any link there is going to be a real problem. Strange how UK have not reported a single case of clotting after AZ vaccine


I think they have. Reports with Pfizer too.


----------



## Isobella

Chopera said:


> Looks like we're getting to the situation where any case of blood clots after receiving a vaccine will make the headlines. And any case of blood clots without receiving a vaccine, or because of covid-related complications will go unreported.


From the Telegraph.
_Out of the 17 million people across Europe who have received the vaccine there have been 15 events of deep vein thrombosis and 22 events of pulmonary embolism. 

Blood clots are a common condition, particularly among older people who are currently prioritised for vaccination. 

Given that one in 1,000 people suffer from blood clots every year, we would expect that out of the 17 million who had been vaccinated 17,000 of those would get a blood clot over the next 12 months – about 320 people every week. 

AstraZeneca has pointed out that in clinical trials there were fewer blood clots in those given the vaccine than in those who did not receive it. 

Blood clotting is a very common condition in Covid patients and it is unclear whether any of the people reported to have died or suffered blood clots actually had the disease.

Given the tiny numbers of people who have suffered blood clots and the vast numbers who have had the vaccine the link seems very tenuous._


----------



## kaipa

But have WHO said there is no link or simply that the risk is extremely small? Unless the can deny any link then it effectively means everytime you give someone the jab your are saying don't worrying the chances of dying from this are extremely small. You dont have to a conspiracy theorist to have a little flutter of anxiety, no?


Isobella said:


> From the Telegraph.
> _Out of the 17 million people across Europe who have received the vaccine there have been 15 events of deep vein thrombosis and 22 events of pulmonary embolism.
> 
> Blood clots are a common condition, particularly among older people who are currently prioritised for vaccination.
> 
> Given that one in 1,000 people suffer from blood clots every year, we would expect that out of the 17 million who had been vaccinated 17,000 of those would get a blood clot over the next 12 months – about 320 people every week.
> 
> AstraZeneca has pointed out that in clinical trials there were fewer blood clots in those given the vaccine than in those who did not receive it.
> 
> Blood clotting is a very common condition in Covid patients and it is unclear whether any of the people reported to have died or suffered blood clots actually had the disease.
> 
> Given the tiny numbers of people who have suffered blood clots and the vast numbers who have had the vaccine the link seems very tenuous._



I get all that but if it is so obvious as statistics why would professionals involved with this flag it up?
I mean statistically you might find that if you had the jab in the morning as opposed to the afternoon you have a higher chance of becoming ill but no one is going to start attributing any link to something like that so why would people , who know alot more about this, in different countries all start to suggest the same thing?


----------



## Isobella

There is a risk to all medicines and Pills, even Aspirin and Paracetamol.

I wonder if they have looked into the possibility of some the vaccine not being stored correctly. A nurse at our surgery told me the instructions are numerous. There are also instruments to check if at anytime the temperature is higher than it should be. All sounded very complicated.


----------



## Alcalaina

kaipa said:


> But have WHO said there is no link or simply that the risk is extremely small? Unless the can deny any link then it effectively means everytime you give someone the jab your are saying don't worrying the chances of dying from this are extremely small. You dont have to a conspiracy theorist to have a little flutter of anxiety, no?


The WHO said there is no EVIDENCE of a link. Which is what the EMA will say as well. There have been 37 reported cases out of 17 million, with the probability less than in the non-vaccinated population. Anyone who suffers a flutter of anxiety with those odds needs to go back to school.


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> But have WHO said there is no link or simply that the risk is extremely small? Unless the can deny any link then it effectively means everytime you give someone the jab your are saying don't worrying the chances of dying from this are extremely small. *You dont have to a conspiracy theorist to have a little flutter of anxiety, no?*
> 
> 
> I get all that but if it is so obvious as statistics why would professionals involved with this flag it up?
> I mean statistically you might find that if you had the jab in the morning as opposed to the afternoon you have a higher chance of becoming ill but no one is going to start attributing any link to something like that so why would people , who know alot more about this, in different countries all start to suggest the same thing?


actually yes.. unless you don’t take paracetamol or any other over the counter drugs 

*Side effects of paracetamol*
Side effects from paracetamol are rare but can include:


an allergic reaction, which can cause a rash and swelling
flushing, low blood pressure and a fast heartbeat – this can sometimes happen when paracetamol is given in hospital into a vein in your arm
*blood disorders, such as thrombocytopenia (low number of platelet cells) and leukopenia (low number of white blood cells)*


liver and kidney damage, if you take too much (overdose) – this can be fatal in severe cases

if, like me you randomly developed a blood clotting issue then yes, you might have concerns but I still take paracetamol etc 

all medical agencies are stating it’s safe and just like Karen on Facebook everybody else is not only an epidemiologist they’re all now scientists. Those experts flagging the issue up is what they’re supposed to do. When I was nursing the MRHA sent out weekly notifications about various drugs.. didn’t see hysterical headlines or social media rattling in about those.

You have a choice.. have it or don’t. I know which way I’m going ....


----------



## Megsmum

Isobella said:


> I think they have. Reports with Pfizer too.


yep...


----------



## kaipa

So just been announced the delay in the AZ vaccine in UK is down to 1.7 million doses needing to be recalled. Wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the case that the UK government have sat on that information for at least 24 hours. They could have announced this yesterday but they chose not to
That's the problem with spin. Now they have just made it worse as more people start to worry


----------



## jimenato

Alcalaina said:


> The anti-AstraZeneca movement has really taken hold here. After the teachers in the town were vaccinated a couple of weeks ago, six had side effects so bad they had to take the next day off work. Now they all think it will give them blood clots. I really wish the govt would release it to anyone willing to take this miniscule risk instead of putting it into cold storage!


Sounds like those teachers need educating. 😄


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> So just been announced the delay in the AZ vaccine in UK is down to 1.7 million doses needing to be recalled. Wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the case that the UK government have sat on that information for at least 24 hours. They could have announced this yesterday but they chose not to
> That's the problem with spin. Now they have just made it worse as more people start to worry


Not recalled they haven't left the factory , they're delayed totally different to be recalled....the stability of the drug is being tested


----------



## jimenato

Alcalaina said:


> I assumed the drop in supply to the UK was merely because AZ promised to divert more supplies to the EU after all the fuss earlier in the year. They've also got obligations to CoVax,
> 
> But it doesn't matter how many times the EMA says there is no link - the WHO has already said this - once the idea is out there, people who are susceptible to conspiracy theories won't believe it.


The drop in supply to the UK is because The Serum Institute in India which is the biggest manufacturer is finding it difficult to keep up with demand and 5 million doses due in the UK from them this week will not arrive.


----------



## blondebob

Read this quote elsewhere which has a point

"_If this vaccine were a motor vehicle or an electrical appliance the product would be withdrawn/recalled for the fault to be rectified and if people had been killed or injured even just a handful there would be huge payments for compensation. I suppose the problem is that once you have had an injection that's it, they can't suck it out again to see what was wrong with it and as the pharmaceutical companies have immunity from prosecution it's just hard luck._"


----------



## kaipa

blondebob said:


> Read this quote elsewhere which has a point
> 
> "_If this vaccine were a motor vehicle or an electrical appliance the product would be withdrawn/recalled for the fault to be rectified and if people had been killed or injured even just a handful there would be huge payments for compensation. I suppose the problem is that once you have had an injection that's it, they can't suck it out again to see what was wrong with it and as the pharmaceutical companies have immunity from prosecution it's just hard luck._"


 Only in UK does AZ have immunity. EU didn't grant them that or pay as much as UK hence the delay in signing the contract. No wonder UK doesn't want to be at all critical of AZ - if anything was proven damaging there would be no compensation!!


----------



## blondebob

kaipa said:


> *Only in UK does AZ have immunity*. EU didn't grant them that or pay as much as UK hence the delay in signing the contract. No wonder UK doesn't want to be at all critical of AZ - if anything was proven damaging there would be no compensation!!



You sure about that?








AstraZeneca to be exempt from coronavirus vaccine liability claims in most countries


AstraZeneca has been granted protection from future product liability claims related to its COVID-19 vaccine hopeful by most of the countries with which it has struck supply agreements, a senior executive told Reuters.




www.reuters.com


----------



## Megsmum

The simple facts are, which neither of you bothered to address, side effects occur in all walks of life , from swollowing a paracetamol to crossing the road. You make your own life choices, like moving to a foreign country , you take your chances. Simply put either you have the vaccine or you don't, noone is forcing anyone to have it. When people moan about the UKs vaccination program it smacks of envy... I'm no lover of pharmaceutical companies per se, but if anyone thought this vaccine wouldn't have some side effects then Thier in cuckoo land. I've been on chemo drugs for six months... Risk V reward and like future generations will be grateful that we undertook this global vaccination campaign, I'm grateful to those who went before me and allowed me to be slightly safer in my chemotherapy treatment. Stop whinging, get the jab when you can and move the country you came to live in a future


----------



## kaipa

Your answer is way too simplistic
I am all too aware that there are risks involved with all medications but that doesn't mean that you should accept the risks and not challenge them. People have been using medicines like paracetamol or have had jabs against viruses for a long time What makes this different is its newness. Its incumbent on both the producers and the administrators to be particular vigilant to any unusual or unexplainable reactions. This is why its use was halted in EU. Today's announcement by the EMA is not some kind of U-turn as the UK sees it. It's a report on current findings. What it says is that AZ is safe and effective against Covid 19. It does not dismiss any link between the vaccine and blood clots but simply states there is not sufficient data at present to support that claim. This then is not saying that the EU behaved irrationally or irresponsibly. It simply means that a small number of people who recieve the vaccine may have blood clotting but it cannot be proven to be linked. Clearly this will effect some people's choices and to suggest they have less ability to make rational judgements displays a level of arrogance not uncommon in those who believe they hold the moral high ground.


----------



## Megsmum

Really. You should read some of your posts back. There no moral high ground here, when there's a race to stop this dreadful virus lessons and side effects will be unknown . The link is not proven, knee jerk reaction, in my opinion, by EU countries. It will obviously affect the decisions to take the vaccine, once again those people swollow paracetamol with no idea of side effects. As I stated, and it's got nothing to do with moral high ground, individuals have a decision to make they either have it or they don't. Obviously it's the newness, but all drugs be it paracetamol or covid jabs have to start somewhere. For too long people have become risk averse.. or would we prefer "others" to take the risk so we don't have too.. as I said I owe my life to those who had Chemotherapy drugs pumped into them for the past forty plus years.. 
Will you have the vaccine? How much proof do you need to agree it's safe, the percentage of those affected by clotting is miniscule.. the risk of getting s clot during your normal week is about the same according to the MRHA and EMA. At some stage during this crisis we need to put our faith in science and not in perception


----------



## Lynn R

Megsmum said:


> The link is not proven, knee jerk reaction, in my opinion, by EU countries.


In the interests of accuracy, can I just point out that it is not just EU countries who have at some time temporarily suspended use of the AZ vaccine whilst this issue is investigated. Norway, Thailand, Indonesia and the Democratic Republic of the Congo have all done the same, but the reporting in the British press concentrates solely on the EU as they seem to want to whip up as much antagonism towards the EU as they possibly can.


----------



## kaipa

Megsmum said:


> Really. You should read some of your posts back. There no moral high ground here, when there's a race to stop this dreadful virus lessons and side effects will be unknown . The link is not proven, knee jerk reaction, in my opinion, by EU countries. It will obviously affect the decisions to take the vaccine, once again those people swollow paracetamol with no idea of side effects. As I stated, and it's got nothing to do with moral high ground, individuals have a decision to make they either have it or they don't. Obviously it's the newness, but all drugs be it paracetamol or covid jabs have to start somewhere. For too long people have become risk averse.. or would we prefer "others" to take the risk so we don't have too.. as I said I owe my life to those who had Chemotherapy drugs pumped into them for the past forty plus years..
> Will you have the vaccine? How much proof do you need to agree it's safe, the percentage of those affected by clotting is miniscule.. the risk of getting s clot during your normal week is about the same according to the MRHA and EMA. At some stage during this crisis we need to put our faith in science and not in perception


I have put my faith in science but mine was EU scientists. Are you trying to say they are not competent.? Dont confuse me with someone who follows Facebook factions that is very different


----------



## Megsmum

Lynn R said:


> In the interests of accuracy, can I just point out that it is not just EU countries who have at some time temporarily suspended use of the AZ vaccine whilst this issue is investigated. Norway, Thailand, Indonesia and the Democratic Republic of the Congo have all done the same, but the reporting in the British press concentrates solely on the EU as they seem to want to whip up as much antagonism towards the EU as they possibly can.





kaipa said:


> I have put my faith in science but mine was EU scientists. Are you trying to say they are not competent.? Dont confuse me with someone who follows Facebook factions that is very different


No, I agree about both points. I think scientists reacted appropriately, but this is how ALL drugs new or old are dealt with. The EU/UK are BOTH playing a dangerous political ramped up game... I'm just so fed up with negativity towards this vaccine.. by many, constant UK bashing and vice versa. Why can't we be grateful that we have a vaccine that clearly works. As for Karen on Facebook, your allowed to question the vaccine but not Karen? Anyway , I've thing I've learned from the last six months , wasting heart muscle on forums is a waste if time. I'm bowing out now.


----------



## Barriej

kaipa said:


> Your answer is way too simplistic
> I am all too aware that there are risks involved with all medications but that doesn't mean that you should accept the risks and not challenge them. People have been using medicines like paracetamol or have had jabs against viruses for a long time What makes this different is its newness. Its incumbent on both the producers and the administrators to be particular vigilant to any unusual or unexplainable reactions. This is why its use was halted in EU. Today's announcement by the EMA is not some kind of U-turn as the UK sees it. It's a report on current findings. What it says is that AZ is safe and effective against Covid 19. It does not dismiss any link between the vaccine and blood clots but simply states there is not sufficient data at present to support that claim. This then is not saying that the EU behaved irrationally or irresponsibly. It simply means that a small number of people who recieve the vaccine may have blood clotting but it cannot be proven to be linked. Clearly this will effect some people's choices and to suggest they have less ability to make rational judgements displays a level of arrogance not uncommon in those who believe they hold the moral high ground.


There is also a risk of DVT when travelling by air, I bet very few consider this when deciding where to go on holiday. And its not at the front of all airline websites. (not exactly on topic i know)
Yes ALL forms of medication, transport, food can and does cause side effects. My wife is allergic to penicillin and a couple of other things. Does she let it rule her life No that would be silly. 

The side affects from the AZ vaccine are minute, and correct me if Im wrong but some of those who developed these symptoms were unable to have the other vaccine because of allergies that might have been aggravated by the Pfizer vaccine. Not getting that widely reported from the newspapers though.
See here for info.








Suspicions grow that nanoparticles in Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine trigger rare allergic reactions


Life-threatening responses seen in at least eight people could be linked to polyethylene glycol, known to trigger reactions to some drugs




www.sciencemag.org





As to will I have the vaccine, maybe. I'm in the last age group before the general population, am lucky in that I have never had flu and only get a cold once every 6 or 7 years and have never been ill or hospitalised. 
There are lots of people who need this more than me, so I'm happy to wait. Don't plan to travel out of Spain anytime soon and therefore do not believe that I will pose any risk. 
The wife on the other hand, does not want it yet, her mother has the flu jab in the Uk every year and then spends a week or so with a very heavy cold straight after and her doctor has advised her to wait for a while before getting the covid jab. My wife says she fears that she may get a bad reaction so is waiting for now.


----------



## Isobella

Lynn R said:


> In the interests of accuracy, can I just point out that it is not just EU countries who have at some time temporarily suspended use of the AZ vaccine whilst this issue is investigated. Norway, Thailand, Indonesia and the Democratic Republic of the Congo have all done the same, but the reporting in the British press concentrates solely on the EU as they seem to want to whip up as much antagonism towards the EU as they possibly can.


Not just the UK. Press although with the Dictatorship threats and false accusations coming out of Brussels not surprising. A lot of criticism in the European press too. The EU thanks to Ursula has become a laughing stock with her plans to take over AZ. Maybe Pfizer too. I used to live in the Congo, they will probably been swayed by France. They are just as likely to recommend boiled cactus next week.


----------



## Lynn R

It was telling that the initial reaction when news of the unfortunate shortfall in expected deliveries of the AZ vaccine to the UK in April emerged yesterday evening (despite Matt Hancock's best efforts to deny it) was to immediately start saying the EU were to blame. However, it was soon confirmed that it was actually due to the vaccine exports being suspended by India - but did anyone say, oh sorry we were wrong?


----------



## jimenato

blondebob said:


> Read this quote elsewhere which has a point
> 
> "_If this vaccine were a motor vehicle or an electrical appliance the product would be withdrawn/recalled for the fault to be rectified and if people had been killed or injured even just a handful there would be huge payments for compensation. I suppose the problem is that once you have had an injection that's it, they can't suck it out again to see what was wrong with it and as the pharmaceutical companies have immunity from prosecution it's just hard luck._"


A better motoring analogy would be - 'I know I need to go to hospital but I'm not going in that ambulance because sometimes ambulances crash'.


----------



## Isobella

Lynn R said:


> It was telling that the initial reaction when news of the unfortunate shortfall in expected deliveries of the AZ vaccine to the UK in April emerged yesterday evening (despite Matt Hancock's best efforts to deny it) was to immediately start saying the EU were to blame. However, it was soon confirmed that it was actually due to the vaccine exports being suspended by India - but did anyone say, oh sorry we were wrong?


Similar to accusations fromBrussels about UK exporting vaccines a week ago when it was declared officially fake news.


----------



## Isobella

This is similar to wat the rest of the world is saying.









Europe’s Vaccine Suspension May Be Driven as Much by Politics as Science (Published 2021)


Once it became clear Germany was pausing, the pressure mounted on other governments to hold off as well, out of fear of seeming incautious and for the sake of a united front.




www.nytimes.com


----------



## Isobella

Isobella said:


> This is similar to wat the rest of the world is saying.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Europe’s Vaccine Suspension May Be Driven as Much by Politics as Science (Published 2021)
> 
> 
> Once it became clear Germany was pausing, the pressure mounted on other governments to hold off as well, out of fear of seeming incautious and for the sake of a united front.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com


Australia too.









AstraZeneca COVID vaccine bans 'have cost lives' as Europe struggles with looming third wave


The suspension of the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine rollout across much of Europe is likely be lifted soon, but some experts believe the damage to public confidence will be long-lasting and will result in unnecessary deaths.




www.abc.net.au


----------



## kaipa

Brother in law in Sweden phoned yesterday. Was saying that Sweden not using AZ as Swedish scientists believe that there is a possible link. Sweden is usually quite a responsible advanced country and they dont really have much of a bone to chew over Brexit so it certainly shows how divided science is. Putting things into another framework the guardian had a report yesterday that the NHS is starting to complain about Boris' ministers saying that the UK is obsessed with boasting about Covid and that the government is trying to take all the praise. Numerous doctors and officials say that the government is basically pushing the NHS into a timetable that is getting harder and harder to complete. They say the public have been given unrealistic expectations about vaccination goals and the safe lifting of restrictions. They said that centres were now receiving abuse from people who are angry that they haven't been vaccinated as the government and media said they would. They also question the governments spin on things- when ever there is a problem the blame is always placed on the actions of other countries ( India, EU etc). One feels a mighty fall a coming!


----------



## jimenato

kaipa said:


> I have put my faith in science but mine was EU scientists. Are you trying to say they are not competent.? Dont confuse me with someone who follows Facebook factions that is very different


The EU scientists are saying that the AZ vaccine is safe - it is the individual countries which suspended it against their advice.


----------



## kaipa

jimenato said:


> The EU scientists are saying that the AZ vaccine is safe - it is the individual countries which suspended it against their advice.


So are Swedish scientists wrong? The AZ company is actually a uk- Swedish partnership so that makes their decision appear far more objective.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jimenato said:


> The EU scientists are saying that the AZ vaccine is safe - it is the individual countries which suspended it against their advice.


y daughter was due to be vaccinated with AZ this weekend and I am grateful that the programme has been suspended. Colleagues of hers were vaccinated and one of them was very ill with side effects


----------



## kaipa

Pesky Wesky said:


> y daughter was due to be vaccinated with AZ this weekend and I am grateful that the programme has been suspended. Colleagues of hers were vaccinated and one of them was very ill with side effects


That's how I feel. Why do people feel so angry at the EU? The argument seems to be if you get ill then it's just bad luck and you should be grateful not concerned.


----------



## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> y daughter was due to be vaccinated with AZ this weekend and I am grateful that the programme has been suspended. Colleagues of hers were vaccinated and one of them was very ill with side effects


Would you really not take a potentially life-saving vaccine because of possible side-effects which, although nasty, only last a short time?


----------



## kaipa

Alcalaina said:


> Would you really not take a potentially life-saving vaccine because of possible side-effects which, although nasty, only last a short time?


Uhh...tell that to the family of the teacher in Malaga!


----------



## blondebob

kaipa said:


> Uhh...tell that to the family of the teacher in Malaga!


And the *Three Norwegian health workers under the age of 50 that have been hospitalized. One has subsequently died *


----------



## Lynn R

kaipa said:


> Uhh...tell that to the family of the teacher in Malaga!


It is reported this morning that the post mortem has found no link with the vaccine, but that the poor woman involved had a predisposition to such cerebrovasular events (no doubt unbeknownst to her). But plenty of people will probably refuse to believe that, just as lots still say the virus is no more serious than flu or that those who die from it were about to die of something else anyway so why does it matter.









La autopsia a la profesora de Marbella descarta que su muerte guarde relación con la vacuna de AstraZeneca


El consejero de Salud asevera de forma «concluyente» que «no hay relación causal» entre la inmunización y el deceso de la docente



sevilla.abc.es


----------



## kaipa

Lynn R said:


> It is reported this morning that the post mortem has found no link with the vaccine, but that the poor woman involved had a predisposition to such cerebrovasular events (no doubt unbeknownst to her). But plenty of people will probably refuse to believe that, just as lots still say the virus is no more serious than flu or that those who die from it were about to die of something else anyway so why does it matter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> La autopsia a la profesora de Marbella descarta que su muerte guarde relación con la vacuna de AstraZeneca
> 
> 
> El consejero de Salud asevera de forma «concluyente» que «no hay relación causal» entre la inmunización y el deceso de la docente
> 
> 
> 
> sevilla.abc.es


Yes Lynn just read it in Diario








La autopsia a la profesora fallecida en Marbella apunta a que su muerte no está relacionada con la vacuna de AstraZeneca


La autopsia realizada a la profesora que falleció en Marbella por <a href="https://www.eldiario.es/sociedad/sanidad-recaba-datos-muerte-mujer-marbella-vacunada_1_7317597.html" target="_blank" data-mrf-recirculation="links-noticia">una hemorragia cerebral tras ser vacunada con AstraZeneca</a>...




www.eldiario.es





I stand corrected


----------



## blondebob

Shame the same can't be said about the Norwegian health workers


----------



## Isobella

kaipa said:


> So are Swedish scientists wrong? The AZ company is actually a uk- Swedish partnership so that makes their decision appear far more objective.


They were wrong before when they decided to go for herd immunity. Damage is done now, mud sticks. Some of Europe now entering a 3rd (or is it 4th wave)

I wonder why there is never any publicity about Pfizer side effects? Many of those reported are similar.


----------



## Barriej

Isobella said:


> I wonder why there is never any publicity about Pfizer side effects? Many of those reported are similar.


Sorry of keeping just the one line.
I saw a report that said there were some issues with the Pfizer vaccines if you had certain allergies and those people were specifically given the AZ because of the nature of its manufacture was different to the Pfizer. (something about the chemical the vaccine was enclosed by could cause serious effects in certain people, thats the Pfizer one)


----------



## Alcalaina

blondebob said:


> Shame the same can't be said about the Norwegian health workers


So have they found evidence that the vaccine caused whatever happened to them? I don't think so.

Even if they did, a one-in-a-million chance of something going wrong after a vaccination is a whole lot better than a one-in-fifty chance (or whatever the odds are) if you contract Covid. Why can't people get their heads round probability?


----------



## Alcalaina

Barriej said:


> Sorry of keeping just the one line.
> I saw a report that said there were some issues with the Pfizer vaccines if you had certain allergies and those people were specifically given the AZ because of the nature of its manufacture was different to the Pfizer. (something about the chemical the vaccine was enclosed by could cause serious effects in certain people, thats the Pfizer one)


Yes, that was discovered during the trials but it was only two or three people with very severe allergies to certain medicines, and nobody died.


----------



## blondebob

Alcalaina said:


> So have they found evidence that the vaccine caused whatever happened to them? * I don't think so.*
> 
> Even if they did, a one-in-a-million chance of something going wrong after a vaccination is a whole lot better than a one-in-fifty chance (or whatever the odds are) if you contract Covid. Why can't people get their heads round probability?


You "don't think so" really? You have a better grasp of the dead Norwegian health worker's case and the Norwegian scientists findings? .........I Don't think so.😉









Norwegian experts say deadly blood clots were caused by the AstraZeneca covid vaccine


“Our theory that this is a powerful immune response most likely triggered by the vaccine, has been confirmed”, says professor and chief physician Pål Andre Holme. Three Norwegian health workers under the age of 50 have been hospitalized. One is dead.




sciencenorway.no


----------



## Alcalaina

blondebob said:


> You "don't think so" really? You have a better grasp of the dead Norwegian health worker's case and the Norwegian scientists findings? .........I Don't think so.😉
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Norwegian experts say deadly blood clots were caused by the AstraZeneca covid vaccine
> 
> 
> “Our theory that this is a powerful immune response most likely triggered by the vaccine, has been confirmed”, says professor and chief physician Pål Andre Holme. Three Norwegian health workers under the age of 50 have been hospitalized. One is dead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sciencenorway.no


I stand corrected. Very worrying if true. But it still doesn’t mean the risks outweigh the benefits.


----------



## kaipa

Alcalaina said:


> So have they found evidence that the vaccine caused whatever happened to them? I don't think so.
> 
> Even if they did, a one-in-a-million chance of something going wrong after a vaccination is a whole lot better than a one-in-fifty chance (or whatever the odds are) if you contract Covid. Why can't people get their heads round probability?


People aren't as dumb as you imply. By taking a jab that just might have a possibility of seriously damaging you within 72 hours it is perfectly logical not to want to take it as the probability of catching Covid and being damaged in the same time period is way less. That is how people will think of risk and within any given time frame it's perfectly logical


----------



## jimenato

Alcalaina said:


> I stand corrected. Very worrying if true. But it still doesn’t mean the risks outweigh the benefits.


Yes - the numbers show that risks from Covid are obviously far greater than the risk from the vaccine. 

However some people seem to worry more about taking an action which might jeopardise their health than doing nothing - even though doing nothing is much more risky.

I quirk of human nature I guess.


----------



## kaipa

I see today Saturday reports in Denmark of 2 hospital staff receiving AZ vaccine and both being hospitalized with clots. Now I daresay we can say oh statistically that's expected or its selective reporting but either way how are the public expected to react if offered the vaccine? Should newspapers not be reporting this? Should hospitals be releasing raw information? If there was a connection what would be the global consequences of making it public?


----------



## blondebob

kaipa said:


> I see today Saturday reports in Denmark of 2 hospital staff receiving AZ vaccine and both being hospitalized with clots. Now I daresay we can say oh statistically that's expected or its selective reporting but either way how are the public expected to react if offered the vaccine? Should newspapers not be reporting this? Should hospitals be releasing raw information? If there was a connection what would be the global consequences of making it public?


There seem to be a great many more side effects that are being registered (Pfizer) but the flavour of the day seems to be blood clots so thats what the media are reporting on. Lots of various heart issues, vertigo, eye issues including blindness to name a few. A very similar wide spectrum of nasty side effects from AZ also


----------



## Alcalaina

jimenato said:


> Yes - the numbers show that risks from Covid are obviously far greater than the risk from the vaccine.
> 
> However some people seem to worry more about taking an action which might jeopardise their health than doing nothing - even though doing nothing is much more risky.
> 
> I quirk of human nature I guess.


I suppose you‘re right but it still baffles me how anyone can think they are safer not being vaccinated than being vaccinated. They must lead a life of perpetual anxiety.


----------



## blondebob

Alcalaina said:


> I suppose you‘re right but it still baffles me how anyone can think they are safer not being vaccinated than being vaccinated. They must lead a life of perpetual anxiety.


Why would a fit and heathy under 50 yr old be anxious about not having been vaccinated when 99% of deaths occur in the overs 50's and those with underlying conditions?


----------



## Megsmum

blondebob said:


> Why would a fit and heathy under 50 yr old be anxious about not having been vaccinated when 99% of deaths occur in the overs 50's and those with underlying conditions?


Because you can still catch and spread covid and allow variants to develope , that may cause deaths in the under 59s, because it's not about individuals. Under 50s who don't have the jab, can infect people like me,who currently can't have it, due to medics reasons. Sometimes we do things for the good of everyone not just ourselves. So yes, under 50s should be anxious until we are all covered and move on from there...


----------



## blondebob

Megsmum said:


> Because you can still catch and spread covid and allow variants to develope , that may cause deaths in the under 59s, because it's not about individuals. Under 50s who don't have the jab, can infect people like me,who currently can't have it, due to medics reasons. Sometimes we do things for the good of everyone not just ourselves. So yes, under 50s should be anxious until we are all covered and move on from there...


Yes understand all that......but was answering the post " They must lead a life of perpetual anxiety.".....


----------



## Isobella

Heard some nutter on the car radio saying masks may have to be worn for at least another two years along with some restrictions.


----------



## blondebob

Isobella said:


> Heard some nutter on the car radio saying masks may have to be worn for at least another two years along with some restrictions.


I read that just moments ago 









Covid: Masks and social distancing 'could last years'


Measures may remain until jabs roll out across the world, Public Health England's Dr Mary Ramsay says.



www.bbc.com


----------



## Chopera

Covid: AstraZeneca vaccine 79% effective with no increased blood clot risk – US trial


Study of over 32,000 people included review of risks of cerebral venous sinus thrombosis




www.theguardian.com


----------



## Megsmum

Chopera said:


> Covid: AstraZeneca vaccine 79% effective with no increased blood clot risk – US trial
> 
> 
> Study of over 32,000 people included review of risks of cerebral venous sinus thrombosis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


Trouble is damage done. 
Finding all this anti vax, etc all very depressing everyone is a scientific expert now. Continuous bashing from both sides of UK and EU helps noone, of course people need and want to start living lives again. damage done I fear, as as if some elements of governments and society are just loving living this lockdown life. Without the vaccine noone is safe anywhere. I just don't see this ending in Europe anytime soon, and despite the UK unprecedented vaccine program, I can't see Brits travelling into Europe this year.. possibly other countries bur not Europe. I'm absolutely fed up with all those in charge, in particular Van Der Lin , who I personally think is a bloody walking time bomb


----------



## kaipa

Megsmum said:


> Trouble is damage done.
> Finding all this anti vax, etc all very depressing everyone is a scientific expert now. Continuous bashing from both sides of UK and EU helps noone, of course people need and want to start living lives again. damage done I fear, as as if some elements of governments and society are just loving living this lockdown life. Without the vaccine noone is safe anywhere. I just don't see this ending in Europe anytime soon, and despite the UK unprecedented vaccine program, I can't see Brits travelling into Europe this year.. possibly other countries bur not Europe. I'm absolutely fed up with all those in charge, in particular Van Der Lin , who I personally think is a bloody walking time bomb


Actually Von lydon is a physician who lectured in epidemiology in Germany so she probably knows a fair amount about the science and medicine involving Covid - more than any of us!!


----------



## stevec2x

kaipa said:


> Actually Von lydon is a physician who lectured in epidemiology in Germany so she probably knows a fair amount about the science and medicine involving Covid - more than any of us!!


But Queen Ursula knows naff all about politics which is why Germany bumped her upstairs to the House of Lords. Oops, sorry, the EC


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> Actually Von lydon is a physician who lectured in epidemiology in Germany so she probably knows a fair amount about the science and medicine involving Covid - more than any of us!!


Good for her.. she's no clue about anything else, she's a knee jerk reactionist, who has imho done more for the Brexit case then Farage et Al did in the referendum. She is a typical political lightweight who manages to continually move upwards despite being totally inadequate.

Also if she is a lecturer in epidemiology should therefore have made her the perfect choice to get us through this pandemic.. clearly that's not the case either


----------



## kaipa

Funny isn't that in the UK the 3 most hated people are......Merkel, Von Lyden, Sturgeon. All smart, all with high ranking positions and.....all women!!!


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> Funny isn't that in the UK the 3 most hated people are......Merkel, Von Lyden, Sturgeon. All smart, all with high ranking positions and.....all women!!!


You may think the reason is they're women, personally I don't "hate" anyone , I tend to judge in the job done, do you could add Northern Ireland Arlene to that group plus, rasb, Patel, ayusu, macron and many more mixed ability and from both sexes. Or as women to we know have to support other women just because they're women. Is that the way forward. Someone does a crap job but we either support then because they're of a particular gender, party or group for fear of offending and being disloyal. That's called progress 😂. That's laughable. As I said I prefer to judge on ability not gender, each to Thier own I suppose. To add , why justv the Uk you think Merkel and Ursula have a great rep in the EU. Sturgeon isn't even probably known outside of the UK by the general population as is neither Ayusu and many other low lying politicians


----------



## Lynn R

Chopera said:


> Covid: AstraZeneca vaccine 79% effective with no increased blood clot risk – US trial
> 
> 
> Study of over 32,000 people included review of risks of cerebral venous sinus thrombosis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


Not plain sailing in the USA following doubts expressed about some of the data submitted by AstraZeneca. I suppose they will be in the pay of Ursula von der Leyen and Angela Merkel too.









US agency questions AstraZeneca's Covid vaccine trial data


Drug firm may have provided incomplete view of efficacy data from US trial, says safety monitor




www.theguardian.com


----------



## Megsmum

Lynn R said:


> Not plain sailing in the USA following doubts expressed about some of the data submitted by AstraZeneca. I suppose they will be in the pay of Ursula von der Leyen and Angela Merkel too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US agency questions AstraZeneca's Covid vaccine trial data
> 
> 
> Drug firm may have provided incomplete view of efficacy data from US trial, says safety monitor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


I have read this as well, it is a worry that insufficient data has been the common theme. What’s the situation thought with all the other vaccines out or coming online soon, is their data any better? does anyone believe big pharma companies. I dont have an issue with suspicion of vaccines, I’m unsure though, at what stage do we go with it.. it’s all very new and I can separate Úrsula von de leyen decisions and statements about stopping the supplies from the vaccine issues itself


----------



## blondebob

Megsmum said:


> I have read this as well, it is a worry that insufficient data has been the common theme. What’s the situation thought with all the other vaccines out or coming online soon, is their data any better? does anyone believe big pharma companies. I dont have an issue with suspicion of vaccines, I’m unsure though, at what stage do we go with it.. it’s all very new and I can separate Úrsula von de leyen decisions and statements about stopping the supplies from the vaccine issues itself


With mass vaccination imo it has always been when clinical trials end and the vaccine in question loses it's "experimental" status which in the case of the Pfizer jab is 2023. Until then everyone is theoretically a "guinea pig".


----------



## Alcalaina

Her name is Ursula von der Leyen, not von Lydon, Lyden, van der Lin etc. She got a Masters in Public Health in 2001 and has been an elected politician since 2003.

And right now I wouldn't want her job for all the tea in China.


----------



## Megsmum

Alcalaina said:


> Her name is Ursula von der Leyen, not von Lydon, Lyden, van der Lin etc. She got a Masters in Public Health in 2001 and has been an elected politician since 2003.
> 
> And right now I wouldn't want her job for all the tea in China.


Wouldn’t want to be any of them at this time, I agree.. doesn’t mean I either agree with her approach or like her approach, no more than I like Bojos approach or ay other political figure.

the fact hat we are in unprecedented times means that no knows what the correct approach is and should be. I’ve seen lots of posts about the leaders in Madrid... all voted in afaik... ibut totally disregarded, rightly or wrongly because of poli reason. 

If others are happy with her approach great, she may yet pull off the greatest approach to public health in the EU yet, who knows. No I don’t want her job, I don’t want Bojos job or Macron or anyone else involved. Time will tell, as will the vaccine programs I’m unsure what everyone is so upset at a bit of criticism towards Úrsula, if I remember rightly a year ago everyone was digging out the U.K. government. it’s perfectly acceptable to be critical across the board of all parties and genders


----------



## jimenato

Re. the holiday posts above, you won't see any Brits in Spain until July at the earliest. Foreign holidays have been banned until then.


----------



## blondebob

jimenato said:


> Re. the holiday posts above, you won't see any Brits in Spain until July at the earliest.  Foreign holidays have been banned until then.


Can you supply an official link with this statement regarding July at the earliest.?

Matt Hancock was just on TV saying current restrictions could be eased on May 17th









BA axes flights amid fears ALL of Europe could be added to 'red list'


Would-be passengers were left dismayed by the latest round of cancellations - that included trips booked for after May 17, when breaks abroad were scheduled to resume.




www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Alcalaina

Megsmum said:


> Wouldn’t want to be any of them at this time, I agree.. doesn’t mean I either agree with her approach or like her approach, no more than I like Bojos approach or ay other political figure.
> 
> the fact hat we are in unprecedented times means that no knows what the correct approach is and should be. I’ve seen lots of posts about the leaders in Madrid... all voted in afaik... ibut totally disregarded, rightly or wrongly because of poli reason.
> 
> If others are happy with her approach great, she may yet pull off the greatest approach to public health in the EU yet, who knows. No I don’t want her job, I don’t want Bojos job or Macron or anyone else involved. Time will tell, as will the vaccine programs I’m unsure what everyone is so upset at a bit of criticism towards Úrsula, if I remember rightly a year ago everyone was digging out the U.K. government. it’s perfectly acceptable to be critical across the board of all parties and genders


She made some serious errors of judgement and she has admitted it (unlike Boris et al). She erred on the side of caution in the vaccine procurement race, but if she’d steamed ahead and committed billions of taxpayer euros on unproven (at that time) vaccines and they turned out not to work, she’d have got flak for that too. Remember on people on this forum saying the U.K. was being too hasty?

Maybe it would have been better if each EU country had done their own procurement. But that goes against the whole ethos of the Union, which some people on here seem to think can do no wrong.


----------



## Megsmum

I understand that the road map will address overseas travel from the U.K. on the 12th April. No international travel until 17th June at the earliest unless announced on the 12th. I can’t find any official link about travel apart from the existing roadmap. Plus it’s a two way street regardless of any U.K. decisions. Basically it’s all guesswork and suppositions at the moment


----------



## Megsmum

Alcalaina said:


> She made some serious errors of judgement and she has admitted it (unlike Boris et al). She erred on the side of caution in the vaccine procurement race, but if she’d steamed ahead and committed billions of taxpayer euros on unproven (at that time) vaccines and they turned out not to work, she’d have got flak for that too. Remember on people on this forum saying the U.K. was being too hasty?
> 
> Maybe it would have been better if each EU country had done their own procurement. But that goes against the whole ethos of the Union, which some people on here seem to think can do no wrong.


there is nothing in this comment that I cannot disagree with


----------



## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> I understand that the road map will address overseas travel from the U.K. on the 12th April. No international travel until 17th June at the earliest unless announced on the 12th. I can’t find any official link about travel apart from the existing roadmap. Plus it’s a two way street regardless of any U.K. decisions. Basically it’s all guesswork and suppositions at the moment


I listen to LBC London in the mornings, that's all they're talking about.


----------



## Alcalaina

Megsmum said:


> there is nothing in this comment that I cannot disagree with


Did you mean that? You disagree with all of it?! Or perhaps like me you’ve got too used to the Spanish double negative.


----------



## Megsmum

Alcalaina said:


> Did you mean that? You disagree with all of it?! Or perhaps like me you’ve got too used to the Spanish double negative.


Got used to double negative. Husband says I confuse him lol 😌
Lol


----------



## Isobella

Alcalaina said:


> She made some serious errors of judgement and she has admitted it (unlike Boris et al). She erred on the side of caution in the vaccine procurement race, but if she’d steamed ahead and committed billions of taxpayer euros on unproven (at that time) vaccines and they turned out not to work, she’d have got flak for that too. Remember on people on this forum saying the U.K. was being too hasty?
> 
> Maybe it would have been better if each EU country had done their own procurement. But that goes against the whole ethos of the Union, which some people on here seem to think can do no wrong.


Ursula was not popular in Germany either. France and Germany’s nationalistic tendencies created all this. They wanted their own vaccines and they flopped. They have smeared AZ, they sneered at the UK for a longer gap between jabs. Now that France realised a longer gap between doses is more effective they have quietly begun delaying the jab for 8 weeks.
Excellent article by Ian Hislop ( a chief remainer) in Private Eye. This one in the Telegraph by William Hague, free to read today.









The EU's vaccine nationalism is even more dangerous than it looks


In an age of pandemics, Brussels’ bid to disrupt global supply networks sets a disastrous precedent




www.telegraph.co.uk


----------



## kaipa

https://www.eldiario.es/sociedad/repunte-contagios-covid-espana-cuarta-ola_1_7334082.htm



Here we go again!!


----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## Megsmum

xabiaxica said:


> View attachment 99327
> View attachment 99328


Interesting. There's not much between them. Within Spain is it very regional? My GP was complaining the other day that we are simply not getting sufficient quantities of the vaccine


----------



## kaipa

So just over 4.5 % in about 3 months. So should take a couple of years each being compounded by new top up vaccines for variants to slow the rate even more. Realistically it looks like we are fighting a losing war. What will actually be needed is a new perspective of how we live with this virus in terms of hospitalization, treatment and suppression. Unless it simply disappears ( Spanish flu did) nature is capable of maintaining this war for forever. Maybe we should wake up to what is going to happen to the planet in the next 10 years instead of pretending it's not a problem.


----------



## Overandout

Exactly, once we find a way to treat it effectively it will be only the weak and elderly who need a vaccine, like the flu these days.
Even the bubonic plague has about 1000 new cases every year, but because habits changed as a result of the previous pandemics, and treatments being discovered, its no longer a big threat. Covid will probably end up like that in a few years.
Hoping for the whole world (or significant proportion of it) to be vaccinated against every strain at any point in the future is blindly optimistic I think.

As a downside, I can see that wearing a mask in public buildings and transport for several years to come is a very real possibility.


----------



## Isobella

Love that graph, makes me smile.


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> So just over 4.5 % in about 3 months. So should take a couple of years each being compounded by new top up vaccines for variants to slow the rate even more. Realistically it looks like we are fighting a losing war. What will actually be needed is a new perspective of how we live with this virus in terms of hospitalization, treatment and suppression. Unless it simply disappears ( Spanish flu did) nature is capable of maintaining this war for forever. Maybe we should wake up to what is going to happen to the planet in the next 10 years instead of pretending it's not a problem.





Overandout said:


> Exactly, once we find a way to treat it effectively it will be only the weak and elderly who need a vaccine, like the flu these days.
> Even the bubonic plague has about 1000 new cases every year, but because habits changed as a result of the previous pandemics, and treatments being discovered, its no longer a big threat. Covid will probably end up like that in a few years.
> Hoping for the whole world (or significant proportion of it) to be vaccinated against every strain at any point in the future is blindly optimistic I think.
> 
> As a downside, I can see that wearing a mask in public buildings and transport for several years to come is a very real possibility.



Exactly, at what stage do we learn to live with it... Life's for living



Isobella said:


> Love that graph, makes me smile.


Why???


----------



## Isobella

Overandout said:


> Exactly, once we find a way to treat it effectively it will be only the weak and elderly who need a vaccine, like the flu these days.
> Even the bubonic plague has about 1000 new cases every year, but because habits changed as a result of the previous pandemics, and treatments being discovered, its no longer a big threat. Covid will probably end up like that in a few years.
> Hoping for the whole world (or significant proportion of it) to be vaccinated against every strain at any point in the future is blindly optimistic I think.
> 
> As a downside, I can see that wearing a mask in public buildings and transport for several years to come is a very real possibility.


some Scientists say it will become like a common cold. Already is for the majority of people now.


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> So just over 4.5 % in about 3 months. So should take a couple of years each being compounded by new top up vaccines for variants to slow the rate even more. Realistically it looks like we are fighting a losing war. What will actually be needed is a new perspective of how we live with this virus in terms of hospitalization, treatment and suppression. Unless it simply disappears ( Spanish flu did) nature is capable of maintaining this war for forever. Maybe we should wake up to what is going to happen to the planet in the next 10 years instead of pretending it's not a problem.


Apparently there's a massive delivery expected in April & a big vaccination push. According to the vaccination app I ought to have had my two doses by mid May.

Certainly that's what Ximo Puig - Valencia - has been saying.


----------



## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> Interesting. There's not much between them. Within Spain is it very regional? My GP was complaining the other day that we are simply not getting sufficient quantities of the vaccine


Possibly it's regional, though I think all regions are currently complaining that they could vaccinate more quickly if they had the vaccines.


----------



## jimenato

Isobella said:


> some Scientists say it will become like a common cold. Already is for the majority of people now.


I suspect more like the flu than the cold. People are still going to die of it like the flu - not many people die of a cold.


----------



## Isobella

xabiaxica said:


> Possibly it's regional, though I think all regions are currently complaining that they could vaccinate more quickly if they had the vaccines.


There are millions lying around on the shelves. Either a lack of organisation or people don’t want it due to the smearing.


----------



## The Skipper

xabiaxica said:


> Apparently there's a massive delivery expected in April & a big vaccination push. According to the vaccination app I ought to have had my two doses by mid May.
> 
> Certainly that's what Ximo Puig - Valencia - has been saying.


Vaccination app? Could you please supply a link to this.


----------



## xabiaxica

Isobella said:


> There are millions lying around on the shelves. Either a lack of organisation or people don’t want it due to the smearing.


Yes, it could possibly be delivered around the regions more quickly - but the percentage of delivered vaccines actually put into arms is higher every week, so it's improving. 
Yes, some people don't want it, though I don't personally, as in face to face, know anyone.

The system where I live is that you are phoned & given an appointment, so if you don't want the jab, you just have to refuse the appointment & it's given to the next on the list.


----------



## xabiaxica

I've moved some posts to here Covid 19 & tourism


----------



## Chopera

Bruselas vuelve a chocar con AstraZeneca tras hallar un lote de 29 millones de vacunas almacenado en Italia


Londres accede a buscar una salida que garantice una relación comercial recíproca después de que Bruselas apruebe la norma para poder bloquear ventas al Reino Unido




elpais.com





Fake news?


----------



## xabiaxica

The Skipper said:


> Vaccination app? Could you please supply a link to this.











Calculadora del Turno de Vacunación en España


La Calculadora del Turno de Vacunación para España estima tu posición en la cola para recibir tu vacuna contra el COVID-19 basada en tu trabajo y edad de acuerdo con el calendario de vacunación del gobierno español y la tasa de vacunación actual.




www.omnicalculator.com


----------



## kaipa

Chopera said:


> Bruselas vuelve a chocar con AstraZeneca tras hallar un lote de 29 millones de vacunas almacenado en Italia
> 
> 
> Londres accede a buscar una salida que garantice una relación comercial recíproca después de que Bruselas apruebe la norma para poder bloquear ventas al Reino Unido
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elpais.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fake news?



I think Idobella picked up on this story earlier. Who knows? The media ( especially in the UK) seem hell bent on an information war. The recent Scotttish debacle a case in point
The tabloids had basically judged Sturgeon guilty at the end of last week and during the weekend were writing her political obituary. The fact that the official reports weren't even published seemed irrelevant. People now perceive the truth to be who ever shouts the loudest and the longest. The problem is it works and that is the world we live in


----------



## xabiaxica

Chopera said:


> Bruselas vuelve a chocar con AstraZeneca tras hallar un lote de 29 millones de vacunas almacenado en Italia
> 
> 
> Londres accede a buscar una salida que garantice una relación comercial recíproca después de que Bruselas apruebe la norma para poder bloquear ventas al Reino Unido
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elpais.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fake news?


Heard angry noises from the British public on the radio yesterday & today 'How dare they?' etc etc. 

Were the boot on the other foot, & the UK producing the vaccine & pressuring the companies making it to look after the UK first, before supplying other countries which were 'ahead' with vaccines, yet not exporting 'a single vial', how do you think the British public would react then?


----------



## Chopera

kaipa said:


> I think Idobella picked up on this story earlier. Who knows? The media ( especially in the UK) seem hell bent on an information war. The recent Scotttish debacle a case in point
> The tabloids had basically judged Sturgeon guilty at the end of last week and during the weekend were writing her political obituary. The fact that the official reports weren't even published seemed irrelevant. People now perceive the truth to be who ever shouts the loudest and the longest. The problem is it works and that is the world we live in


It depends on whether the doses were headed for the UK or not. There are various stories floating around. I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with Sturgeon.


----------



## Megsmum

Chopera said:


> It depends on whether the doses were headed for the UK or not. There are various stories floating around. I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with Sturgeon.


Therein lies the problem.. various stories floating around.. here, face book , Twitter the media.. non confirmed..as xabiaxica says, shoe other foot.. 
Kaipa is also correct, we live now in a world of who shouts loudest gets believed helpfully megaphoned by individual media and political bias. 

Can see this ending in tears, more deaths and dreadful economic impact for everyone, while everyone postures. 
Whole thing saddens me to my core


----------



## Lynn R

Andalucia expects to start vaccinating the over 70s between 10-15 April, and they will be done in descending order of age, ie 79 year olds will be contacted first.









Salud empezará a vacunar contra el Covid a mediados de abril en Málaga a los mayores de 70 años


El responsable autonómico de la inmunización ve “complicado” que se llegue al verano con el 70% de la población inoculada En Málaga, en torno al 5% de la población tiene las dos dosis




www.malagahoy.es





A summary of where the various regions are up to, although more detailed information is shown for some regions than for others.









Vaccination drive in Spain: how is each region progressing after the AstraZeneca suspension?


Regional authorities are hoping to make up for some of the time that was lost when the use of the British-Swedish vaccine was temporarily halted over health concerns




english.elpais.com


----------



## xabiaxica

I know a couple of 81 year olds who have appointments for their first jab this coming Monday, it sounds as if we're in more or less the same position.


----------



## Megsmum

Extremadura look to be doing ok about to start over 63s. Over 80s in our village have now all been done


----------



## Chopera

xabiaxica said:


> Heard angry noises from the British public on the radio yesterday & today 'How dare they?' etc etc.
> 
> Were the boot on the other foot, & the UK producing the vaccine & pressuring the companies making it to look after the UK first, before supplying other countries which were 'ahead' with vaccines, yet not exporting 'a single vial', how do you think the British public would react then?


Firstly regarding the the "UK not exporting a single vial", is that because the UK has blocked vaccine exports? Or simply because nobody has signed a contract to import any vials made in the UK? Secondly the main active ingredient for the Pfizer vaccine is made in the UK by a company called Croda International, which has of course been exported all over the world, especially to the EU. So the EU's accusations against the UK about not exporting vaccines are, at best, misleading.

But even so, if the UK were in the EU's position then I severely doubt that it would have acted so belligerently. I doubt the UK would have raided factories, invoked article 16 without consulting anyone, and generally led a hostile campaign to discredit AZ. And that's being kind and not mentioning the behaviour of France and Germany in spreading untruths about the eficacy of the vaccine, and it supposedly increasing the threat of blood clots (even though there is no apparent science to back this up). All of which ultimately costs lives.

Furthermore, to ask "what if the situation was reversed?" is to overlook the fact that the EU is responsible for itself getting into this situation in the first place. The UK government identified AZ as a potentially successful vaccine last year, worked with them and invested money to support the development of a vaccine that is being sold _at cost_ around the world. Whereas the EU wasted months haggling over prices, invested nothing, and then complains when it doesn't get preferential treatment. "How dare they" indeed.


----------



## Isobella

*according to the Telegraph it has all turned into an embarrassment for the EU. First they sent in the military Police to AZ plant in Italy where they “discovered” 29 million doses, inferring that they were concealed. Now scanning through records much of it was bound for distribution throughout the EU. The rest being for poor countries! 
I can understand Countries getting a bit Nationalistic about supply but the EU have just spent 3 months smearing AZ and still have millions of unused doses.*


----------



## Lynn R

Following the doubts expressed by some of the data supplied by Astra Zeneca to the US regulatory body, they have now released the full trials data - including this statement:-

"Astrazeneca said in a statement that when the new data was added, they found: “The primary endpoint, vaccine efficacy at preventing symptomatic Covid-19 was 76% occurring 15 days or more after receiving two doses given four weeks apart.”

But in many countries, including Spain, the two doses are not being given four weeks apart, but up to 12 weeks apart. Who decided that it is safe to ignore the manufacturers' own data, and on what basis?


----------



## Overandout

I think the EU has handled it badly, but something had to be done. Vaccinating 40 year olds in Britain cannot be a priority when there are still over 80 year-olds waiting for the first jabs in Europe.
I support what the EU has done, but not the way they have done it.

It will be very embarassing however when all these "extra" doses end up on shelves for weeks because Spain isn't capable of administering them.


----------



## kaipa

I think everyone is getting distracted from the facts. First of all the UK does not know to what degree the vaccine is working and wont until the lockdown is lifted. No one is sure to what degree of protection it will provide for continuing contagions. If people can still pass on the virus then obviously this will mean the virus circulates and another wave will occur later on. This could provide more probablility of new variants occurring, then new vaccines are required and we are continually chasing our tails
If the vaccine doesnt fully prevent contagion levels then international travel will be restricted against.
The UK is behaving as though it is a competition and appears to think it has won. The same attitude was there last year when they thought that at the beginning of June it was all over and everyone could go on holiday and we know what happened then! Now Boris' government are obsessed with flying the union Jack at every opportunity, lighting candles and talking about national pride rallies ( sorry festivals). You just know what's going to happen


----------



## jimenato

kaipa said:


> I think everyone is getting distracted from the facts. First of all the UK does not know to what degree the vaccine is working and wont until the lockdown is lifted. No one is sure to what degree of protection it will provide for continuing contagions. If people can still pass on the virus then obviously this will mean the virus circulates and another wave will occur later on. This could provide more probablility of new variants occurring, then new vaccines are required and we are continually chasing our tails
> If the vaccine doesnt fully prevent contagion levels then international travel will be restricted against.
> The UK is behaving as though it is a competition and appears to think it has won. The same attitude was there last year when they thought that at the beginning of June it was all over and everyone could go on holiday and we know what happened then! Now Boris' government are obsessed with flying the union Jack at every opportunity, lighting candles and talking about national pride rallies ( sorry festivals). You just know what's going to happen


Sorry kaipa, not sure where you are but the view from inside the UK is very different from that.

They are being extremely cagey about it - no-one is expecting to be able to go on holiday (with some exceptions) this year - even if other countries allow travel there are grave doubts that the UK will. Restrictions are being lifted very cautiously (many would say over-cautiously) and there is much awareness of the possibility of new variants.

There is no sense at all that we have won - only we are ahead of most of the rest of the world when it comes to vaccination progress.

You are right about the silly flag stuff and festivals but they are an entirely different issue from Covid.


----------



## Megsmum

jimenato said:


> Sorry kaipa, not sure where you are but the view from inside the UK is very different from that.
> 
> They are being extremely cagey about it - no-one is expecting to be able to go on holiday (with some exceptions) this year - even if other countries allow travel there are grave doubts that the UK will. Restrictions are being lifted very cautiously (many would say over-cautiously) and there is much awareness of the possibility of new variants.
> 
> There is no sense at all that we have won - only we are ahead of most of the rest of the world when it comes to vaccination progress.
> 
> You are right about the silly flag stuff and festivals but they are an entirely different issue from Covid.


This, despite not living there, is my own and my families experience of what's happening.. not sure anyone is covered in glory and a probably an excellent example of believing the media you want to believe. 

Look at protests in Germany, France Spain the USA and the UK. I know people who want to go on holiday but different to knowing they can, and continued mixed messages from Spain , Greece etc you can come, you can't come you need this you need that, only fuels the fans of expectation and disappointment which in turn leads to anger. I'm not sure it was only the UK that went on holiday last year either. I'm struggling to think of a country that's covered in glory , that didn't make mistakes and who are still learning from all of this


----------



## olivefarmer

How about Germany? Allowing its nationals to book foreign holidays including to Spain ( when we cannot even go on holiday in Spain) then announcing a national lockdown then cancelling it at the last minute. Some Forum members seem to be obsessed with what is happening in the UK and any opportunity to trash it.


----------



## xabiaxica

Chopera said:


> Firstly regarding the the "UK not exporting a single vial",


I was quoting the article, I haven't looked into it deeply myself - I don't have time.

On the radio this morning, the question was asked of listeners ''Is it right that the UK protect itself?'' (with regard to the vaccines)

The callers who responded resoundingly said - & are still saying - that of course it should.

No-one could see the irony that that is exactly what the EU wants to do.

We may not like the way it's going about it, we may not agree with it ... but that's what is behind the moves.

Not anti UK - just the EU protecting itself & its people.


----------



## Megsmum

xabiaxica said:


> I was quoting the article, I haven't looked into it deeply myself - I don't have time.
> 
> On the radio this morning, the question was asked of listeners ''Is it right that the UK protect itself?'' (with regard to the vaccines)
> 
> The callers who responded that of course it should.
> 
> No-one could see the irony that that is exactly what the EU wants to do.
> 
> We may not like the way it's going about it, we may not agree with it ... but that's what is behind the moves.
> 
> Not anti UK - just the EU protecting itself & its people.


Which is Seen differently depending on which side, for the want of a better word, you are coming from. People in UK will see the UK gov protecting its own and those in the EU see it from the other side. Personally for me, and I appreciate it sounds anti EU, the EU is not a country, so Spain is not able to look after its own, but I understand the "joined" approach. Again , I don't know the answer. I do fear that a rise in nationalism will stem from this.. which is exactly what we don't need and dangerous factions will use this for political gain.


----------



## Isobella

Article in Spectator (paywall) 

_When the EU sends armed police to raid a vaccine warehouse in Italy and threatens an export ban in defiance of its own laws, it’s the sign of a system in meltdown, says Matthew Lynn. His cover story asks about the longer-term implications of Europe’s panic. In our leading article we say our neighbours are in need of our help and, given that we’ll soon have vaccinated our over-fifties, we can provide it. As our data hub shows, Covid hospital admissions are down 96 per cent – but we’re now banned from leaving the country without a ‘reasonable excuse’. _









Europe’s panic: the meltdown over vaccines | The Spectator


The Dutch city of Leiden has rarely played a dramatic role in European history. Quiet, rainy and tucked away close to the sea, it is in many ways the Durham of the Continent. It was besieged by the Spanish in the Eighty Years’ War, Rembrandt was born and worked there, Einstein taught...




www.spectator.co.uk


----------



## Isobella

Lynn R said:


> Following the doubts expressed by some of the data supplied by Astra Zeneca to the US regulatory body, they have now released the full trials data - including this statement:-
> 
> "Astrazeneca said in a statement that when the new data was added, they found: “The primary endpoint, vaccine efficacy at preventing symptomatic Covid-19 was 76% occurring 15 days or more after receiving two doses given four weeks apart.”
> 
> But in many countries, including Spain, the two doses are not being given four weeks apart, but up to 12 weeks apart. Who decided that it is safe to ignore the manufacturers' own data, and on what basis?


France is now giving it 8 weeks apart after reliable studies have shown it is more effective.


----------



## Isobella

jimenato said:


> Sorry kaipa, not sure where you are but the view from inside the UK is very different from that.
> 
> They are being extremely cagey about it - no-one is expecting to be able to go on holiday (with some exceptions) this year - even if other countries allow travel there are grave doubts that the UK will. Restrictions are being lifted very cautiously (many would say over-cautiously) and there is much awareness of the possibility of new variants.
> 
> There is no sense at all that we have won - only we are ahead of most of the rest of the world when it comes to vaccination progress.
> 
> You are right about the silly flag stuff and festivals but they are an entirely different issue from Covid.


Flags are silly but it is not a UK thing, worldwide. Most Government buildings have them. Sturgeon has the EU flag. Ever been to Brussels, nobody does it better.


----------



## jimenato

Isobella said:


> Flags are silly but it is not a UK thing, worldwide. Most Government buildings have them. Sturgeon has the EU flag. Ever been to Brussels, nobody does it better.


I've no real opinion on flags but the kerfuffle over them in the UK at the moment is beyond ridiculous.


----------



## blondebob

Latest fully vaccinated figures. Where has Spain gone it was 4.5% a few days ago?


----------



## Megsmum

Still is afaik. These graphs are ok if they're verified and updated.


----------



## Isobella

Cherry picking. *Fully vaccinated *is the clue. That's why I said I had to smile when I see a few graphs on here all showing the same.
BTW almost 3 million have now had the second jab in UK. * 4.8% of the population* But as someone keeps saying it is not a competition


----------



## blondebob

Megsmum said:


> Still is afaik. These graphs are ok if they're verified and updated.


It seems to be a reliable source and afaik is updated constantly. Oh and you can add a country if missing


----------



## Lynn R

Isobella said:


> Article in Spectator (paywall)
> ​
> _When the EU sends armed police to raid a vaccine warehouse in Italy and threatens an export ban in defiance of its own laws, it’s the sign of a system in meltdown, says Matthew Lynn. His cover story asks about the longer-term implications of Europe’s panic. In our leading article we say our neighbours are in need of our help and, given that we’ll soon have vaccinated our over-fifties, we can provide it. As our data hub shows, Covid hospital admissions are down 96 per cent – but we’re now banned from leaving the country without a ‘reasonable excuse’. _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Europe’s panic: the meltdown over vaccines | The Spectator
> 
> 
> The Dutch city of Leiden has rarely played a dramatic role in European history. Quiet, rainy and tucked away close to the sea, it is in many ways the Durham of the Continent. It was besieged by the Spanish in the Eighty Years’ War, Rembrandt was born and worked there, Einstein taught...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.spectator.co.uk


"Armed police" doesn't have the same connotation as it would if the author were writing about the UK, because in Italy (as in Spain, France, etc) all police are routinely armed, it is nothing sinister.


----------



## Isobella

Lynn R said:


> "Armed police" doesn't have the same connotation as it would if the author were writing about the UK, because in Italy (as in Spain, France, etc) all police are routinely armed, it is nothing sinister.


True but they were "military Police". I think the whole incident was sinister in a Democratic country.


----------



## Alcalaina

Isobella said:


> True but they were "military Police". I think the whole incident was sinister in a Democratic country.


Guardia Civil in Spain, gendarmes in France and carabinieri in Italy are all military police.


----------



## Lynn R

Alcalaina said:


> Guardia Civil in Spain, gendarmes in France and carabinieri in Italy are all military police.


As are the Guardia de Finanza in Italy, who are responsible for many of the same functions as the Guardia Civil in Spain, and I think the most likely to have been used in an operation of this nature. Talk of armed or military police is just designed to make it sound as alarming as possible by ignoring the different way policing is organised in other countries, which is absolutely normal to them.









Law enforcement in Italy - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




.


----------



## Isobella

I find what they did more alarming, so does most of the world.


----------



## blondebob

Not forgetting the Guardia Costiera 😅 🤣 thank goodness for Wiki


----------



## Isobella

Strange how it is always Astra Zeneca. Not much about Pfizer. I think big pharma may be behind some of the smearing. Soon there will be more vaccines than needed but none cheap as AZ.


----------



## Overandout

Isobella said:


> I find what they did more alarming, so does most of the world.


As I said before, I don't think they went about it the right way, but there is nothing wrong with a bit of protectionism. One of the (more valid) arguments for Brexit was to be able to have a freeer reign on protectionist policies so its ironic that now they don't like that the EU is applyng such a policy.

And I'm afraid that it is is just most of the UK that thinks that, not most of the rest of the world. 
And it is not just an attack on the UK either. Shipments to Australia have been blocked too as they don't need it as dadly as we do either.


----------



## Megsmum

Overandout said:


> As I said before, I don't think they went about it the right way, but there is nothing wrong with a bit of One of the (more valid) arguments for Brexit was to be able to have a freeer reign on protectionist policies so its ironic that now they don't like that the EU is applyng such a policy.
> 
> it as dadly as we do either.


Very valid point....and absolutely correct inho


----------



## Megsmum

Talking of new vaccines.. what is happening with the newer ones especially the one shot vaccine?


----------



## Lynn R

Megsmum said:


> Talking of new vaccines.. what is happening with the newer ones especially the one shot vaccine?


Supposedly Spain should be receiving 8 million doses of the Janssen single dose vaccine between April and the end of June 2021, but if previous experience is anything to go by there will probably be delays. All the producers seem to have been guilty of over promising and under delivering, as far as I can see.









Cuándo llegará la vacuna de Janssen: dosis, efectividad y efectos secundarios


La estrategia de vacunación contempla que en el próximo trimestre (abril, mayo y junio) se produzca una ingente llegada de vacunas que permita vacunar, sobre todo, a los mayores de 70 años y personas de riesgo. Una meta en la que juega un papel esencial la vacuna de Janssen, que al ser monodosis...



www.eleconomista.es





Although a Janssen spokeman insisted as recently as yesterday that these deliveries will be forthcoming, starting in the second half of April.









Janssen niega el retraso en entrega de vacunas Covid anunciado por Europa







www.redaccionmedica.com


----------



## Isobella

Overandout said:


> As I said before, I don't think they went about it the right way, but there is nothing wrong with a bit of protectionism. One of the (more valid) arguments for Brexit was to be able to have a freeer reign on protectionist policies so its ironic that now they don't like that the EU is applyng such a policy.
> 
> And I'm afraid that it is is just most of the UK that thinks that, not most of the rest of the world.
> And it is not just an attack on the UK either. Shipments to Australia have been blocked too as they don't need it as dadly as we do either.


You should try reading some the worlds papers. Don’t think it is anything to do with Brexit except for childish sour grapes. Cases rising in most EU countries eg Spain 120 per 100,00, UK 50 per 100,000. Some other countries higher. If the UK had been stuck in their 3 month long bargaining fiasco it would be equal to Spain’s or higher.


----------



## Megsmum

Isobella said:


> You should try reading some the worlds papers. Don’t think it is anything to do with Brexit except for childish sour grapes. Cases rising in most EU countries eg Spain 120 per 100,00, UK 50 per 100,000. Some other countries higher. If the UK had been stuck in their 3 month long bargaining fiasco it would be equal to Spain’s or higher.


I don't think Brits hold the higher moral high ground on reading "other" papers. And I'm sure the point being made was about Brexit , the main argument was, we were told us on this very forum, was for the UK to be able to protect UK interests in the UK/world. and not be tied to 27 other countries. Clearly the deal done early by the UK fell- quite rightly- into that category. Now the EU is, equally trying to protect its own, they don't like it.. or should I say the media portray the UK as not liking it. Does anyone actually think individual countries should not do everything in its power to protect its own citizens?


----------



## Isobella

From Juncker








Jean-Claude Juncker attacks Ursula von der Leyen for 'stupid' vaccines trade war with UK


Former European Commission president attacked EU vaccination strategy as penny-pinching and too cautious.




www.telegraph.co.uk


----------



## Megsmum

Isobella said:


> From Juncker
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jean-Claude Juncker attacks Ursula von der Leyen for 'stupid' vaccines trade war with UK
> 
> 
> Former European Commission president attacked EU vaccination strategy as penny-pinching and too cautious.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.telegraph.co.uk


Not being funny... But he would , wouldn't he lol
I'm sure he'd have done a much better job 🤯🥺


----------



## kaipa

Maybe we should wait as no one knows just how effective vaccination will be. Everywhere is still basically under restrictions and this obviously will account for the lowering of numbers. The real test is when they lift them. Looks like the point of interest has moved from deaths to the worry of the potential scale of continual infections. If infections persist they variants will thrive until eventually a form that totally evades vaccine occurs. That's why it so important to vaccinate all countries you intend to interact with.


----------



## Chopera

Overandout said:


> As I said before, I don't think they went about it the right way, but there is nothing wrong with a bit of protectionism. One of the (more valid) arguments for Brexit was to be able to have a freeer reign on protectionist policies so its ironic that now they don't like that the EU is applyng such a policy.
> 
> ...


The problem is that it's not clear who the EU is protecting. Is it protecting itself or the people who live in the EU? Because I don't see how kicking off a vaccine war and slagging off the main vaccine provider helps get more people vaccinated. I don't see how the EU's actions in this are helping to save lives. On the other hand I can see how their actions might be designed to cover their backs and deflect blame.


----------



## blondebob

Find it strange that compared to Europe there is hardly any vaccination drives going on in Countries such as Japan, Thailand, Vietnam, South Korea etc


----------



## Isobella

Yes, Juncker was an arrogant drunk but many were hanging on to his every word not long ago. My point is that it is not just the UK media, many foreign media have criticised the EU too.
Earlier New York Times had 
*“*Where Europe went wrong in it’s Vaccine roll out and why. Bureaucratic inertia, a diffusion of responsibility and logistical problems. In Italy older people are bearing the brunt.....

no surprise that Trillions of dinero has left the Eurozone for UK recently (Telegraph)


----------



## kaipa

Looks like we will never be able to leave Brexit. Its going to become the benchmark by which all our lives are measured for perhaps the whole of this generation. How depressing. Being a SNP supporter I so hope Scotland can gain independence from England and return to a world where we share a common cause and and Philosophy not be looking for differences. It seems so much better for the soul.


----------



## stevec2x

kaipa said:


> Looks like we will never be able to leave Brexit. Its going to become the benchmark by which all our lives are measured for perhaps the whole of this generation. How depressing. Being a SNP supporter I so hope Scotland can gain independence from England and return to a world where we share a common cause and and Philosophy not be looking for differences. It seems so much better for the soul.


I always find it interesting how SNP want independence from England, but not Wales, NI, or EU. If my SNP missus sees this I could be in trouble!😂


----------



## Joppa

blondebob said:


> Find it strange that compared to Europe there is hardly any vaccination drives going on in Countries such as Japan, Thailand, Vietnam, South Korea etc


They have quite low infection rates, so only vaccinating the really vulnerable, though Japan will soon roll out mass vaccination (what with Olympics starting in July etc). They have done remarkably well in limiting the pandemic, first by early closing of borders and mass testing and tracing. Many of those countries have had experience with bird flu, SARS etc so they knew what to do and had the strategy in place. Something European countries can learn from.


----------



## blondebob

Please let this not become fact


----------



## kaipa

stevec2x said:


> I always find it interesting how SNP want independence from England, but not Wales, NI, or EU. If my SNP missus sees this I could be in trouble!😂


Well you have to be Scottish, Irish, Welsh to understand these things! ( jajajajaja)


----------



## blondebob

Joppa said:


> They have quite low infection rates, so only vaccinating the really vulnerable, though Japan will soon roll out mass vaccination (what with Olympics coming in July etc). They have done remarkably well in limiting the pandemic, first by early closing of borders and mass testing and tracing. Many of those countries have had experience with bird flu, SARS etc so they knew what to do and had the strategy in place. Something European countries can learn from.


So this isn't a Global Vaccine strategy then?


----------



## Joppa

blondebob said:


> So this isn't a Global Vaccine strategy then?


There is no such thing. WHO can encourage and plead but it's up to each country, or a group of them such as EU, to come up with own strategy and implementation.


----------



## Isobella

Chopera said:


> The problem is that it's not clear who the EU is protecting. Is it protecting itself or the people who live in the EU? Because I don't see how kicking off a vaccine war and slagging off the main vaccine provider helps get more people vaccinated. I don't see how the EU's actions in this are helping to save lives. On the other hand I can see how their actions might be designed to cover their backs and deflect blame.


More from the Telegraph. EU's most embarrassing day. How the story behind the factory raid unravelled. 

_*The raid was carried out by the NAS,* an elite unit of the Carabinieri which is part of the armed forces and usually investigates criminal syndicates suspected of counterfeiting food, wine and medicines.

After inspecting the company's records, the officers discovered the giant stockpile of 29 million doses – roughly half AstraZeneca's delivery shortfall to the EU. EU sources briefed the newspaper that the shipment was thought to be secretly bound for the UK,

It emerged that the inspected batches were destined for Belgium. All outgoing batches were inspected."
AstraZeneca later said 16 million of the doses were "waiting for quality control release to be dispatched to Europe", while the other 13 million were to go to countries in the Covax vaccine-sharing scheme for developing countries._


----------



## kaipa

Watching the UK news and reading the papers you see that they are constantly talking about the EU/UK saga. It's always the first thing and it's always couched in a way to provoke strong feelings. On the other hand, just watched La1 and la Sexta news programs plus a quick look through el Diario and, while the AZ shortages are mentioned they are certainly not the first news items and when they appear it's more just facts about developments. There is none of this jingoistic reporting that consumes so much of the British media. Even watching prensa rosa they seem more interested in bashing their own politicians than attacking Britain. Anyone who watches El Intermedio where the presenter sometimes puts on an old WW2 helmet and pretends to be demanding war against UK realizes that many people see this form of response as something that belongs in the past and is only of interest to the far-right.


----------



## blondebob

Who actually compiles all these different figures...there must be thousands of data in putters 😅


----------



## Isobella

blondebob said:


> Who actually compiles all these different figures...there must be thousands of data in putters 😅


My thoughts too, and Scientists. Didn't realise it was such an industry.


----------



## Lynn R

A mass vaccination centre has started operating today at the feria ground in my town. When we passed yesterday there were people working there getting things ready, but I assumed it wouldn't start until after Semana Santa. However, when I passed at 9.15 this morning on the way to get my MRI scan, things looked to be in full swing with lots of cars parked, people queuing outside and Policia Local stewarding. My dental hygienist got a call whilst I was with her yesterday, giving her an appointment to be vaccinated today (she was delighted) so I expect she will have gone there for it, from what I could see of the people queuing they looked fairly young.

I'm pleased to see it because it's a sign that things are picking up speed.


----------



## Roy C

Lynn R said:


> A mass vaccination centre has started operating today at the feria ground in my town. When we passed yesterday there were people working there getting things ready, but I assumed it wouldn't start until after Semana Santa. However, when I passed at 9.15 this morning on the way to get my MRI scan, things looked to be in full swing with lots of cars parked, people queuing outside and Policia Local stewarding. My dental hygienist got a call whilst I was with her yesterday, giving her an appointment to be vaccinated today (she was delighted) so I expect she will have gone there for it, from what I could see of the people queuing they looked fairly young.
> 
> I'm pleased to see it because it's a sign that things are picking up speed.


I hope nobody trips up going in or it will go down as a vaccine accident


----------



## Lynn R

Some good news regarding EMA approval for new manufacturing sites for various vaccines, which should increase supply to EU countries.





__





Increase in vaccine manufacturing capacity and supply for COVID-19 vaccines from AstraZeneca, BioNTech/Pfizer Moderna - European Medicines Agency


Increase in vaccine manufacturing capacity and supply for COVID-19 vaccines from AstraZeneca, BioNTech/Pfizer Moderna




www.ema.europa.eu


----------



## Megsmum

My husband , 62 yrs, is booked in to have his jab on Thursday April 1st. Received the phone call this morning


----------



## Overandout

I am beginning to think that what is happening in Madrid (or should I say not happening) is going beyond what can be considered as "logistics" or even as political games.

How can having over 80 year olds still with no appointment for the first jab be anything less than negligence?


----------



## Megsmum

El SES priorizará a las personas de 63 y 64 años para vacunar con AstraZeneca


El grupo de edad entre 55 y 65 años se complementará con los colectivos esenciales para la administración de estas dosis. Vergeles: "Uno puede decidir si se vacuna o no, pero no qué vacuna quiere"




www.elperiodicoextremadura.com





I'm in the next group.


----------



## Alcalaina

Gibraltar is approaching 100% vaccinated (ncluding cross-border workers who live in Spain) and masks no longer obligatory.

The vaccines came from the UK, of course.

So my 40-year-old neighbour who works there has now had the jab, while they are only just starting to vaccinate the over-80s here and I probably won't get mine till September.

Something's wrong somewhere ...









Relief in Gibraltar as face masks come off outside


Gibraltarians heaved a sigh of relief on Sunday when finally they were allowed to move around their outside public spaces without face masks, six months after they were made compulsory.




www.reuters.com


----------



## Chopera

Overandout said:


> I am beginning to think that what is happening in Madrid (or should I say not happening) is going beyond what can be considered as "logistics" or even as political games.
> 
> How can having over 80 year olds still with no appointment for the first jab be anything less than negligence?


Yep our centro de salud in Arganzuela told me last week that it has now got as far as inviting 86 year olds for their vaccine. I'm not sure how many people over 86 there are in our barrio. It makes me wonder if they have actually vaccinated anyone at all.


----------



## kaipa

Overandout said:


> I am beginning to think that what is happening in Madrid (or should I say not happening) is going beyond what can be considered as "logistics" or even as political games.
> 
> How can having over 80 year olds still with no appointment for the first jab be anything less than negligence?


Yes. Madrid is becoming an embarrassment and nothing more than a political trophy. The ruling government have completely given up any semblance of civic responsibility in order to focus on an election that is itself irresponsible and damaging. It is a major stain on Spain and one they should be deeply ashamed of


----------



## Megsmum

Overandout said:


> I am beginning to think that what is happening in Madrid (or should I say not happening) is going beyond what can be considered as "logistics" or even as political games.
> 
> How can having over 80 year olds still with no appointment for the first jab be anything less than negligence?





Alcalaina said:


> Gibraltar is approaching 100% vaccinated (ncluding cross-border workers who live in Spain) and masks no longer obligatory.
> 
> The vaccines came from the UK, of course.
> 
> So my 40-year-old neighbour who works there has now had the jab, while they are only just starting to vaccinate the over-80s here and I probably won't get mine till September.
> 
> Something's wrong somewhere ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Relief in Gibraltar as face masks come off outside
> 
> 
> Gibraltarians heaved a sigh of relief on Sunday when finally they were allowed to move around their outside public spaces without face masks, six months after they were made compulsory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com





Chopera said:


> Yep our centro de salud in Arganzuela told me last week that it has now got as far as inviting 86 year olds for their vaccine. I'm not sure how many people over 86 there are in our barrio. It makes me wonder if they have actually vaccinated anyone at all.


So why do you think your particular regions/areas are so behind?


----------



## Alcalaina

Megsmum said:


> So why do you think your particular regions/areas are so behind?


In Andalucia it's because of supply problems. Apart from suspending the AZ vaccine for a few days while there were doubts about safety issues, they've been using them as fast as they get them. 

The supplies aren't getting through because of various production problems in the manufacturing processes and, probably, delays by the EU in placing orders so other countries got their deliveries first.

I'm confident that supplies will improve as more production plants come online and Spain will eventually meet its target of 70% vaccinated by summer - though it will be the end of summer rather than the beginning.


----------



## kaipa

I agree in so far as the speed of vaccination however the fact that the scientists are now saying that a 4th wave will occur in Spain before summer suggests that we are far from out of the woods. The main issue with this is that political parties are not sure which side of the fence to come down out. Sanchez has until may when the State of Alarm legally is lifted. If then Spain is about to enter a 4th wave but the government are unable to get support for national control we could face a really terrible situation where each communidad behaves according to its own local governing parties. Such a situation could throw vaccinations into free for all.


----------



## Megsmum

Alcalaina said:


> In Andalucia it's because of supply problems. Apart from suspending the AZ vaccine for a few days while there were doubts about safety issues, they've been using them as fast as they get them.
> 
> The supplies aren't getting through because of various production problems in the manufacturing processes and, probably, delays by the EU in placing orders so other countries got their deliveries first.
> 
> I'm confident that supplies will improve as more production plants come online and Spain will eventually meet its target of 70% vaccinated by summer - though it will be the end of summer rather than the beginning.


Agreed. When you look at figures across the Europe Union.. Spain actually not doing too bad. I know In the UK there are still issues in certain area re age groups. Overall, whilst not out of the woods yet by a long stretch, I don't believe any political party will deliberately stop the vaccines and cause more deaths. I'm more optimistic now than I was last week. As you say, the more vaccines that come on board , the more efficient the programme gets the better the outcome. I'm a glass half full person.


----------



## Isobella

Spain is doing better than some other countries. Claimed last week there is/were a million+ doses of AZ on the shelves in Spain.

Read an article that there is also a lot of disinformation from Russian sources on social media. I think AZ has enough smearing without Russia joining in.


----------



## blondebob

kaipa said:


> I agree in so far as the speed of vaccination however the fact that the scientists are now saying that a 4th wave will occur in Spain before summer suggests that we are far from out of the woods. The main issue with this is that political parties are not sure which side of the fence to come down out. Sanchez has until may when the State of Alarm legally is lifted. If then Spain is about to enter a 4th wave but the government are unable to get support for national control we could face a really terrible situation where each communidad behaves according to its own local governing parties. Such a situation could throw vaccinations into free for all.


4th Wave before summer.......were they more specific?


----------



## Overandout

Megsmum said:


> So why do you think your particular regions/areas are so behind?


I honestly don't know, although it should come as no surprise that Madrid is the first and currently only CA to authorise subcontracting Covid jabs to the private sector.
It is being made out to be a lack of vaccine supplies, but according to the Ministerio, all CAs have got the dosis in proportion to their demographics so there shouldn't really be any big inequalities among regions.
Someone is lying somewhere and I wouldn't be surprised to see Ayuso and co in a trial for criminal activities during the pandemic in 5 years from now. 
I'd write a rap song about it, or put on a puppet show, but then I'd be in prison in time for Easter.


----------



## kaipa

blondebob said:


> 4th Wave before summer.......were they more specific?











Clara Prats: "La vacunación de las próximas semanas no evitará por sí misma una cuarta ola, pero atenuará su mortalidad"


La investigadora y física del grupo BIOCOM-SC de la UPC aboga por alargar las restricciones hasta que esté vacunada la población más vulnerable: "Está a la vuelta de la esquina"




www.eldiario.es


----------



## Chopera

Megsmum said:


> So why do you think your particular regions/areas are so behind?


I'm not sure the Madrid CA is particularly behind the rest in administering vaccines. According to this it has administered 88% of its doses:









Así evoluciona la vacunación contra la covid en España y en el mundo


Estos son los últimos datos de la distribución de los fármacos para acabar con la pandemia de coronavirus




elpais.com


----------



## Overandout

Chopera said:


> I'm not sure the Madrid CA is particularly behind the rest in administering vaccines. According to this it has administered 88% of its doses:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Así evoluciona la vacunación contra la covid en España y en el mundo
> 
> 
> Estos son los últimos datos de la distribución de los fármacos para acabar con la pandemia de coronavirus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elpais.com


But this is why I say that someone is lying somewhere. 
If Madrid really is not behind, how do you explain that many 80+ year olds are not vaccinated when in Extremadura they are calling up 62 year olds?
It is totally possible that Madrid really has been given a much lower numer of dosis per capita in the 80+ age range and that is why we are still struggling to vaccinate the first priority groups, but if that was the case, wouldn't there be more of a scandal in the right wing news papers? They usually jump at the opportunity to attack the central government.
Maybe Madrid isn't "behind", but others are "in front" without doubt.


----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## kaipa

I think as has been pointed out the graph above is a bit bias depending on which framework you are applying which makes all the difference. By focussing on 2nd dosis you are trying to assert that more people have complete protection. However it is becoming more obvious through research that one dose offers an equivalent protection level as the second one but probably over a shorter period. Obviously then the more people receiving first dose the better it is overall in reducing hospitalized admissions and this is the prime objective. So all in all Spain is not doing well.


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> I think as has been pointed out the graph above is a bit bias depending on which framework you are applying which makes all the difference. By focussing on 2nd dosis you are trying to assert that more people have complete protection. However it is becoming more obvious through research that one dose offers an equivalent protection level as the second one but probably over a shorter period. Obviously then the more people receiving first dose the better it is overall in reducing hospitalized admissions and this is the prime objective. So all in all Spain is not doing well.


Yes, you can put different countries in, too. 

I just chose our nearest European neighbours, & fully covered by both doses. 

Only time will really tell if one dose is 'enough', though clearly it's better than nothing. 

FB groups are already full of people saying things like 'I've had a jab, I don't understand why I can't go to Spain to my second home', as if somehow having a jab means that they can't spread the virus. 

Even having both jabs doesn't mean that.


----------



## Isobella

kaipa said:


> I think as has been pointed out the graph above is a bit bias depending on which framework you are applying which makes all the difference. By focussing on 2nd dosis you are trying to assert that more people have complete protection. However it is becoming more obvious through research that one dose offers an equivalent protection level as the second one but probably over a shorter period. Obviously then the more people receiving first dose the better it is overall in reducing hospitalized admissions and this is the prime objective. So all in all Spain is not doing well.


Graph is Always out of date too. UK has now given 7% of the population 2 doses. According to a relative France now has a longer gap between 2nd dose. People keep saying it is not a competition but then post useless graphs.
The latest announcement that Pfizer will stop using biotech in Germany could be another fall out from the von Leyden rhetoric as is the UK starting to bottle it’s own. Then the news that novavax is delaying a deal with the EU because the company is worried they may be dragged into a similar smear exercise like AZ
Something wrong here, just tried to do link, won’t go away.


----------



## Chopera

Isobella said:


> Graph is Always out of date too. UK has now given 7% of the population 2 doses. According to a relative France now has a longer gap between 2nd dose. People keep saying it is not a competition but then post useless graphs.
> *The latest announcement that Pfizer will stop using biotech in Germany could be another fall out from the von Leyden rhetoric as is the UK starting to bottle it’s own*. Then the news that novavax is delaying a deal with the EU because the company is worried they may be dragged into a similar smear exercise like AZ
> Something wrong here, just tried to do link, won’t go away.


From what I've read, Pfizer have simply said they no longer need to work with BioNTech because they now have the epertise to develop mRNA vaccines themselves. However I haven't read that they will stop working with them.


----------



## Chopera

Overandout said:


> But this is why I say that someone is lying somewhere.
> If Madrid really is not behind, how do you explain that many 80+ year olds are not vaccinated when in Extremadura they are calling up 62 year olds?
> It is totally possible that Madrid really has been given a much lower numer of dosis per capita in the 80+ age range and that is why we are still struggling to vaccinate the first priority groups, but if that was the case, wouldn't there be more of a scandal in the right wing news papers? They usually jump at the opportunity to attack the central government.
> Maybe Madrid isn't "behind", but others are "in front" without doubt.


Could it be that a larger perentage of jabs in Madrid have gone to teachers and medical workers in Madrid? I know all the teachers in my kids' school have been vaccinated. Maybe Madrid prioritised them over the over 80s, while othe CAs have done it the other way round?


----------



## Overandout

Chopera said:


> Could it be that a larger perentage of jabs in Madrid have gone to teachers and medical workers in Madrid? I know all the teachers in my kids' school have been vaccinated. Maybe Madrid prioritised them over the over 80s, while othe CAs have done it the other way round?


Could be. 
I certainly know of many "younger" people who have had the AZ jab in Madrid, some of which really weren't what I'd call high priority (although I'm sure they's disagree with me), but I thought that this was due to the nationally applicable decision to administer the AZ to under 55s only which lead to them offering it to virtually anyone!
In theory, I can't see how that would have made it more difficult to administer the other jabs to the elderly, but I suppose it is a complex situation which is easier to deal with in less densly populated areas.


----------



## jimenato

We had a video call with a friend in Andalucia today as it's her birthday.

She is 70, in poor health and has not yet been vaccinated yet she is going out to a restaurant for lunch today with friends.

This could not happen in the UK - all pubs, restaurants,and cafes everywhere are closed.

As far as I can see, COVID deaths in Spain are running at twice the number of deaths in the UK.

Two very different approaches - which is right?


----------



## kaipa

The Spanish news just now is reporting a new, unknown variant in Andalucia.


----------



## blondebob

As Brenda in bristol would say "not another one" 😅


----------



## kaipa

blondebob said:


> As Brenda in bristol would say "not another one" 😅


She would no doubt say that about the monolith found on a Spanish today !!


----------



## Lynn R

I've just had my call this morning (surprised me because I didn't think they'd be working on Jueves Santo) to go for my first vaccination next week, at the mass vaccination point on the feria ground in Vélez. I'm 64. No date for the second injection was mentioned, hopefully I'll be told that when I go for my appointment.


----------



## Megsmum

Lynn R said:


> I've just had my call this morning (surprised me because I didn't think they'd be working on Jueves Santo) to go for my first vaccination next week, at the mass vaccination point on the feria ground in Vélez. I'm 64. No date for the second injection was mentioned, hopefully I'll be told that when I go for my appointment.


We have just got back from vaccination centre. Husband was given his second date with his paperwork. There was approx 500 plus in the queue ahead of us and about the same waiting when we left. It went reasonably quickly, AZ was the vaccine. I was heartened by how many people had turned up. I think people would have queued for hours just to be jabbed


----------



## Hepa

I had my second Tuesday 30th, both Pfizer. 10 minute walk to the Hospital, no queue, one lady in front already having hers, my name taken, injected straight away, had to remain seated for a short time, then return home.

No side effects, just an ache in my upper arm.

I thought that was pretty good, however my grand daughter has already had both of hers, she lives in Yorkshire, England........................


----------



## Isobella

xabiaxica said:


> View attachment 99367
> View attachment 99368


A different graph here to the ones you keep posting. They change so quickly though, UK has done over 4.8 million second 7.8% of adults. I wonder what is happening in the Netherlands, they are usually a very organised country.


----------



## Melosine

Think reading the news and graphs is worrying people more.
In Murcia province my husband had his jab yesterday and whilst booking in was given date of second jab. 3 weeks time.
If one drove to the centre then nurses were in attendance to treat whilst still in the car
All done in 10 mins max.
Am amazed at how fast and efficient they were.
Just waiting for the phone call for my appointment now.


----------



## Isobella

Probably a post code lottery like the UK. Early on our surgery started to vaccinate couples at the same time. OH is 8 years older than me so I was given it about 3 weeks early, 2nd jab too. Friends in another area were a month later than us.


----------



## blondebob

But at least things are moving here now in Axarquia and people being processed and given second appts


----------



## stevesainty

Just had a text from our centro de salud in Torrevieja. 1st Jab AZ 6 April, 2nd jab AZ 29 June. I am 65, no health problems or current treatment.


----------



## Lynn R

Social media and the idiots who use it to spread fake news for malicious purposes have a lot to answer for sometimes.









La Junta denuncia un bulo que provoca la aglomeración de 4.000 personas en Sevilla para vacunarse sin estar citadas


La mayoría de las personas concentradas por esta falsa noticia han sido mayores de 80 años




www.diariosur.es


----------



## Megsmum

Seems things are moving. Where are the doom mongers. They've gone quiet. !!!


----------



## xabiaxica

Just had notification that our health region is jabbing 64 & 65 year olds on Tuesday & Wednesday next week, so they'll have had both jabs by the end of this month.


----------



## Isobella

According to this Andalucia is way ahead of other Provinces in vaccinations.









Fears of fourth coronavirus wave grow as Spain enters high-risk situation


According to the latest Health Ministry report, the country is now on level three of the four-stage alert system, with the 14-day cumulative number of cases per 100,000 at 152




english.elpais.com


----------



## manclad

I'm 74 and my husband is 77 , looks like we will have to wait...


----------



## Megsmum

xabiaxica said:


> Just had notification that our health region is jabbing 64 & 65 year olds on Tuesday & Wednesday next week, so they'll have had both jabs by the end of this month.


Nice to see all these positive posts about people getting vaccinations. Obviously, we are still behind but it feels like things are getting going now


----------



## Megsmum

manclad said:


> I'm 74 and my husband is 77 , looks like we will have to wait...


My understanding is that AZ has delivered to Spain so instead of it going to waste Spain is giving it to the group's it can. I'm still waiting for mine but every jab in any arm is protecting us all


----------



## Lynn R

manclad said:


> I'm 74 and my husband is 77 , looks like we will have to wait...


I don't think you will have too much longer to wait. I have heard of 2 people aged 77 who have been contacted and given appointments for their first injections next week. In Andalucia (where I think you are?) they are vaccinating two groups in tandem - people aged from 79 to 70 are being contacted in descending order of age and will get the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines, and those aged from 59 to 64 are again being contacted in descending order of age and will get the AstraZeneca vaccine. I'm 64 and got my phone call today, my husband aged 71 hasn't been called yet but I expect he will be within the next 2 weeks.

If you miss the first call, don't panic. I missed the first one, tried to call the number back (it started with 600) 3 times but it just rang out, then they rang again about an hour later.


----------



## kaipa

stevesainty said:


> Just had a text from our centro de salud in Torrevieja. 1st Jab AZ 6 April, 2nd jab AZ 29 June. I am 65, no health problems or current treatment.


Wow. You are the first person I know in torrevieja who has an appointment. My boss was complaining about her elderly parents not being vaccinated the other day so I thought it was going to be a while. Which central salud are you registered with??
Hopefully mine is on the way.


----------



## stevesainty

kaipa said:


> Wow. You are the first person I know in torrevieja who has an appointment. My boss was complaining about her elderly parents not being vaccinated the other day so I thought it was going to be a while. Which central salud are you registered with??
> Hopefully mine is on the way.


San Luis, but the vaccination centre is the Ocio centre near Carrefour. My wife who is older has not been called yet so perhaps they are waiting for the Johnson & Johnson vaccine to arrive. Lots of people on a local frum are quoting the same dates, so it looks like the early sixty year olds are being called. I only turned 65 on January 5 so perhaps the datum mark is 1 January.


----------



## Alcalaina

Lynn R said:


> I don't think you will have too much longer to wait. I have heard of 2 people aged 77 who have been contacted and given appointments for their first injections next week. In Andalucia (where I think you are?) they are vaccinating two groups in tandem - people aged from 79 to 70 are being contacted in descending order of age and will get the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines, and those aged from 59 to 64 are again being contacted in descending order of age and will get the AstraZeneca vaccine. I'm 64 and got my phone call today, my husband aged 71 hasn't been called yet but I expect he will be within the next 2 weeks.
> 
> If you miss the first call, don't panic. I missed the first one, tried to call the number back (it started with 600) 3 times but it just rang out, then they rang again about an hour later.


And those of us between 65 and 70 are missing out ...








Spain’s vaccine have-nots: the 70-year-olds squeezed between younger and older target groups


Despite their risk of developing a severe or fatal form of Covid-19, people born between 1942 and 1956 may have to wait until mid-April or even later before receiving their first Covid-19 shots




english.elpais.com


----------



## manclad

Megsmum said:


> My understanding is that AZ has delivered to Spain so instead of it going to waste Spain is giving it to the group's it can. I'm still waiting for mine but every jab in any arm is protecting us all


I agree, but we so desperately want ours ... Just being selfish I suppose .


----------



## Lynn R

Alcalaina said:


> And those of us between 65 and 70 are missing out ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spain’s vaccine have-nots: the 70-year-olds squeezed between younger and older target groups
> 
> 
> Despite their risk of developing a severe or fatal form of Covid-19, people born between 1942 and 1956 may have to wait until mid-April or even later before receiving their first Covid-19 shots
> 
> 
> 
> 
> english.elpais.com


I'm only two months away from my 65th birthday. To be honest, if I had the choice (which I don't, of course) I would rather wait a bit longer and get the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine rather than be having the AZ one now. Not because of where it was developed or manufactured, or concerns about side effects, but simply because it's >70% effectiveness is lower than the others' >90%, and because of the longer gap between jabs it will be longer until I will be fully vaccinated. But I am not going to turn the AZ one down as I wouldn't be offered another one.


----------



## Megsmum

stevesainty said:


> San Luis, but the vaccination centre is the Ocio centre near Carrefour. My wife who is older has not been called yet so perhaps they are waiting for the Johnson & Johnson vaccine to arrive. Lots of people on a local frum are quoting the same dates, so it looks like the early sixty year olds are being called. I only turned 65 on January 5 so perhaps the datum mark is 1 January.


When does the Johnson and Johnson vaccine arrive??


----------



## stevesainty

Megsmum said:


> When does the Johnson and Johnson vaccine arrive??


Apparently late April.









Spain 'can't count on' Janssen's single-dose Covid vaccine to stop a fourth wave


A leading health expert in Spain has warned that if a dreaded fourth wave of the coronavirus is unleashed in spring, ?if we are saved from it, it will be by ourselves and not the




www.surinenglish.com





The manufacturer has confirmed that it will fulfill its promise to deliver 5.5 million vials in the second quarter of the year, but most will not be shipped until the end of the period. The company says it will not be in a position to send its first shipment until the end of April and then it will only provide 300,000 doses. In May it expects to deliver 1.3 million doses and 3.9 million in June.


----------



## Isobella

J&J have problems 15 million doses wasted due to ingredient mix up.









15 million doses of J&J vaccine ruined by ingredient mix-up


Some 15 million doses of Johnson & Johnson's one-shot coronavirus vaccine have been ruined after employees at a Baltimore manufacturing plant of Emergent BioSolutons swapped two ingredients.




www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## xabiaxica

stevesainty said:


> San Luis, but the vaccination centre is the Ocio centre near Carrefour. My wife who is older has not been called yet so perhaps they are waiting for the Johnson & Johnson vaccine to arrive. Lots of people on a local frum are quoting the same dates, so it looks like the early sixty year olds are being called.* I only turned 65 on January 5 so perhaps the datum mark is 1 January.*


Yes, it's year of birth.

The AZ will now be given to up to 65 year olds. As Megsmum said, Spain has just taken a big delivery of that one. In the Valencian community alone, over a million doses.









Sanidad recibe el millón de dosis de AstraZeneca que distribuirá este viernes entre las autonomías


Se encuentran en su almacén central para ser distribuidas este viernes




valenciaplaza.com





In my area they will be starting on the 70 - 80 year olds any day now. So far the Pfizer & Moderna vaccinations have been used, with the AZ having been given to police, teachers & similar workers under 55.


----------



## manclad

Lynn R said:


> I don't think you will have too much longer to wait. I have heard of 2 people aged 77 who have been contacted and given appointments for their first injections next week. In Andalucia (where I think you are?) they are vaccinating two groups in tandem - people aged from 79 to 70 are being contacted in descending order of age and will get the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines, and those aged from 59 to 64 are again being contacted in descending order of age and will get the AstraZeneca vaccine. I'm 64 and got my phone call today, my husband aged 71 hasn't been called yet but I expect he will be within the next 2 weeks.
> 
> If you miss the first call, don't panic. I missed the first one, tried to call the number back (it started with 600) 3 times but it just rang out, then they rang again about an hour later.


Yes Im in Almunecar , Granada...Looks like they are going to start vaccinating over 70s shortly, fingers crossed anyway...


----------



## mrypg9

Had a phone call yesterday, getting first jab Monday and second one three weeks later. Vaccinations for over sixty- fives starting here.

My son back in the UK got a jab because someone didn’t turn up and he was offered the ‘spare’ vaccine. But he has to wait twelve weeks before he gets the second one.


----------



## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> Had a phone call yesterday, getting first jab Monday and second one three weeks later. Vaccinations for over sixty- fives starting here.
> 
> My son back in the UK got a jab because someone didn’t turn up and he was offered the ‘spare’ vaccine. But he has to wait twelve weeks before he gets the second one.


I think the 12 week gap is happening in Spain too, Mary, for younger people who get the Astrazeneca vaccine. I will find out for sure when I go for my first jab next week.

The over 70s I know of who have been contacted have been given the date for their second appointment, as you have, but I was not given a second date when they rang me yesterday.


----------



## Megsmum

Lynn R said:


> I think the 12 week gap is happening in Spain too, Mary, for younger people who get the Astrazeneca vaccine. I will find out for sure when I go for my first jab next week.
> 
> The over 70s I know of who have been contacted have been given the date for their second appointment, as you have, but I was not given a second date when they rang me yesterday.


Husband was given his second date the day of his vaccination, a 12 week gap.

So happy to see all these posts about the vaccine getting into peoples arms


----------



## Chopera

Fears of fourth coronavirus wave grow as Spain enters high-risk situation


According to the latest Health Ministry report, the country is now on level three of the four-stage alert system, with the 14-day cumulative number of cases per 100,000 at 152




english.elpais.com





Apparently there'll be "essential travel only" restrictions in and out of my barrio in Madrid from Monday. So I guess we might have a spike. Not really surprising since it's Semana Santa and nobody can go anywhere apart from congregate in restaurants and bars,

Could get interesting if there is another wave during the campaigning for the Madrid elections at the beginning of May. Especially if other regions appear to be ahead with their vaccine rollout.


----------



## Alcalaina

Encouraging!
Spain’s regions prepare mass vaccination sites as Covid-19 inoculation campaign gains pace - 
Spain’s regions prepare mass vaccination sites as Covid-19 inoculation campaign gains pace


----------



## Megsmum

Alcalaina said:


> Encouraging!
> Spain’s regions prepare mass vaccination sites as Covid-19 inoculation campaign gains pace -
> Spain’s regions prepare mass vaccination sites as Covid-19 inoculation campaign gains pace


bloody brilliant. Let’s move forward


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## Megsmum

Alcalaina said:


> Encouraging!
> Spain’s regions prepare mass vaccination sites as Covid-19 inoculation campaign gains pace -
> Spain’s regions prepare mass vaccination sites as Covid-19 inoculation campaign gains pace


i was at my Gp surgery this morning. The nurses were continually on the phone booking in vaccinations for Wednesday and Thursday. Things certainly seem to be moving now


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## kaipa

So now we hear that AZ might not be used on under 30s in UK due to possible blood clotting links. It really is getting confusing. For weeks now the UK has been saying that it is safe and the EU is using it as a political tool and now this! Anyone suggesting doubt about it was immediately labelled some kind of conspiracy theorist and flamed. Now the UK looks like aligning with Germany and France saying it's a precaution


----------



## Alcalaina

Scientists in Germany have discovered why the AZ vaccine might cause blood clots in a tiny number of people. 








AstraZeneca: Un grupo de científicos señala la posible causa y tratamiento de los trombos relacionados con la vacuna


Un equipo de investigadores de la Universidad alemana de Greifswald anuncian haber encontrado una explicación para los casos de trombos y problemas de coagulación




www.lavanguardia.com


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## kaipa

So there is a clear link between AZ and blood clots. Presumably the UK is going to have to back peddle over its accusations that the EU were solely engaged in politicising the vaccine and I imagine this will probably signal the suspension of its use. In some ways it's a shame as there were no doubt some honorable intentions behind the producers of the vaccine but once again the initial warnings by the scientific community involving vaccine trials and production were pushed aside by a over optimistic politicians and media alike. Now it looks as though the UK vaccine program will slow and its refusal to indicate how much it has of other vaccines will likely cause all types of arguments and criticism. Of course the EU will also be affected but it goes to show that if you make it into a competition there will always be losers and our reality is now one where if one lose we all lose.


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## Isobella

Some say there is a clear link other Scientists say not. I still think it is political. The UK will just give the under 30s another brand. All the vaccines have side effects. Nevertheless the EU has stopped another AZ shipment to Australia. Perhaps they just want to look at it on the shelves. The EU will probably not get around to the under 30s until next year unless they up their game.







A mass vaccination session. File photograph.* / EUROPA PRESS*

*Only 16,500 doses were administered last week in the province. At this rate, it would take more than two years to fully vaccinate the 70 per cent target of people over the age of 16*









Slow Covid vaccination rate in Malaga province leaves hopes for summer up in the air


The low number of anti-coronavirus doses distributed so far by the European Union means the target of achieving group immunity, with 70 per cent of the population in Spain being i




www.surinenglish.com


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## Love Karma

Ah lets all play the game......pick a number any number or pick a headline any headline......TO SUIT 😅 😅









Covid-19 Vaccinations in Spain (5 Nov) - Spain in English


The Spanish Health Ministry issues figures on the number of Covid-19 vaccines distributed and administered across each region of Spain to date.




www.spainenglish.com


----------



## Chopera

kaipa said:


> So there is a clear link between AZ and blood clots. Presumably the UK is going to have to back peddle over its accusations that the EU were solely engaged in politicising the vaccine and I imagine this will probably signal the suspension of its use. In some ways it's a shame as there were no doubt some honorable intentions behind the producers of the vaccine but once again the initial warnings by the scientific community involving vaccine trials and production were pushed aside by a over optimistic politicians and media alike. Now it looks as though the UK vaccine program will slow and its refusal to indicate how much it has of other vaccines will likely cause all types of arguments and criticism. Of course the EU will also be affected but it goes to show that if you make it into a competition there will always be losers and our reality is now one where if one lose we all lose.


The UK government hasn't accused the EU of anything regarding bloodclots and the AZ vaccine. The accusations of politicising were regarding the EU trying to block exports, raid factories, etc. The scientific community has generally been saying the AZ vaccine is safe. The EMA still says its safe. Although it is still investigating a link with blood clots. Even if it does find a link, they may well continue to say the vaccine safe (as is the case with other medications linked to blood clots)









EU drug agency denies already finding causal link between AstraZeneca vaccine and blood clots


European Medicines Agency says review ongoing after head of vaccines spoke of ‘clear’ association




www.theguardian.com


----------



## kaipa

So at 13.00 today they reported in the guardian that EMA had found a definite link. Now 3 hours later the EMA are contradicting the senior official!! What on earth is going on?









EU drug agency denies already finding causal link between AstraZeneca vaccine and blood clots


European Medicines Agency says review ongoing after head of vaccines spoke of ‘clear’ association




www.theguardian.com


----------



## Lynn R

Isobella said:


> Some say there is a clear link other Scientists say not. I still think it is political. The UK will just give the under 30s another brand. All the vaccines have side effects. Nevertheless the EU has stopped another AZ shipment to Australia. Perhaps they just want to look at it on the shelves. The EU will probably not get around to the under 30s until next year unless they up their game.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A mass vaccination session. File photograph.* / EUROPA PRESS*
> 
> *Only 16,500 doses were administered last week in the province. At this rate, it would take more than two years to fully vaccinate the 70 per cent target of people over the age of 16*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Slow Covid vaccination rate in Malaga province leaves hopes for summer up in the air
> 
> 
> The low number of anti-coronavirus doses distributed so far by the European Union means the target of achieving group immunity, with 70 per cent of the population in Spain being i
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.surinenglish.com


I'm not surprised that the numbers were low for that particular 7 day period - because all they've been doing during those dates is "mopping up" those over 80s who had not yet been vaccinated (with phone numbers appealing for those within that age groups to get in touch to arrange an appointment having been publicised) and as the published figures show that Andalucia had already vaccinated just over 90% of the over 80s it is obvious there wouldn't be many left to be done in Malaga province. The next main stages of vaccinating the 70-79 and 55-64 age groups are starting this week and I think next week's statistics will look very different. It has already been confirmed that the vaccines to be used for these two distinct groups have already been delivered to Spain and distributed to the autonomous regions.


----------



## Chopera

kaipa said:


> So at 13.00 today they reported in the guardian that EMA had found a definite link. Now 3 hours later the EMA are contradicting the senior official!! What on earth is going on?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EU drug agency denies already finding causal link between AstraZeneca vaccine and blood clots
> 
> 
> European Medicines Agency says review ongoing after head of vaccines spoke of ‘clear’ association
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


It would help if you provided some links in your comments so others can see what your statements are based on.

AFAIK a senior official from the EMA made some comments about them finding a link, but at no point has the EMA itself declared that they have found a definite link.


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## Lynn R

An optimistic prediction today from Pedro Sánchez - I hope he's right in saying that no further delays in vaccine deliveries are expected from any of the four manufacturers.

If the state of alarm does indeed end on 9 May, what will that mean for the restrictions? Will it still be compulsory, for example, to wear masks outdoors, or will the autonomous regions have the power to keep certain restrictions going?









El Gobierno pone fecha al final del estado de alarma en España


Pedro Sánchez promete 25 millones de inmunizados para mediados de julio




www.diariosur.es


----------



## Barriej

Lynn R said:


> An optimistic prediction today from Pedro Sánchez - I hope he's right in saying that no further delays in vaccine deliveries are expected from any of the four manufacturers.
> 
> If the state of alarm does indeed end on 9 May, what will that mean for the restrictions? Will it still be compulsory, for example, to wear masks outdoors, or will the autonomous regions have the power to keep certain restrictions going?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> El Gobierno pone fecha al final del estado de alarma en España
> 
> 
> Pedro Sánchez promete 25 millones de inmunizados para mediados de julio
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.diariosur.es


The whole vaccination thing here is confusing me. My FIL who is over 80 still hasn't had his first jab (he has other medical issues and is in regular contact with his health centre) A friend who is 66 had his first jab today in Benidorm but his partner who is over 70 who has heart issues has not been called yet. All 3 are in the public system.

And as to the restrictions I think that the wearing of masks will remain inside in shops etc, but will become voluntary outside. (but thats just my opinion anyway)
Ive got so used to wearing on now I will probably continue to do so even if its no longer mandatory. Should keep colds and flu at bay (not that I get either normally anyway)

It would be nice if we could stay out for longer and meet up with more people. I would happily take that over relaxing the mask wearing.


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## Lynn R

My husband is 71 and hasn't been called yet, but I have (aged 64) and will be having my first vaccination this week. In Andalucia they published phone numbers asking those people over 80 who had not been vaccinated yet to get in touch with them - have they not done that in your region?

I hated wearing masks when they were first introduced but have got used to them. I would not mind at all continuing to wear one in shops, offices,etc. and will probably continue to wear one by choice on public transport even if they're not required, because it has been good to get through an entire year without a cold or sinus infection and I am sure that is where I normally pick such things up. I don't, however, relish the thought of going through another very hot Spanish summer having to wear a mask outdoors, even when exercising. I have complied, but have always thought the infection risk in the open air, unless you are in a crowded location, is minimal. So if that restriction can go by the board if the state of alarm is ended, I will be pleased.

I will be glad, for the sake of others and for businesses, if more people can meet up and stay out for longer, although it won't impact me very much.


----------



## Overandout

My wife's Spanish family includes an 83 year old who had his first jab in Madrid yesterday, but soon it sounds like the Madrileños will all be getting the Russian vaccine if Ayusito has her way!

We were all wondering what she had done with the millions of € of aid Madrid got from the central govt., well now we know, she's been saving up to buy us all the Sputnik! How nice! Maybe I'll vote for after all...


----------



## kaipa

As the AZ polemica rolls on now with the suspension of use with children surely the question should be : if there is a causal link with blood clotting and if this had been established in trials, would the vaccine have been approved?


----------



## Megsmum

Well obviously they'd suspend trials in children if issues Are occurring in the wider population, secondly, my understanding was that these issues were not occuring in trials and as most medical professionals will know, the wider the use of drug in the general population the more issues can and will arrive. This is normal for any drug or vaccine it's just that the press and public are more aware because of covid and it's impact on the world. No one would have a clue about the thousands of drug trials and MRHA and it's international equivalent if the guardian and the telegraph were as wrapped up in other research as they are in covid. 

I do like your use of the phrase 

if there is a causal link with blood clotting and if this had been established in trials, would the vaccine have been approved?


What do you think? Very good at throwing out the old conspiracy theory without actually nailing your flag to the mast.

Personally, if clotting issues had arisen in trials it may still have been approved with warnings as to who could or couldn't have it. With recommendations as per every single drug on the market from aspirin which can kill individuals to mercaptopurine which is a drug used for blood cancers and also Crohn's disease. Both had approval both had side effects that showed up when used in the general population.


----------



## kaipa

I think you are way to quick to accuse anyone who doesn't agree with your views as a conspiracy theorist and you like to do it as it suggests such people are not as informed and clever as you. However I am not suggesting anything sinister or manipulative in my question, I am merely asking if back in the trials a causal link was established , would the vaccine have been approved.


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## Lynn R

Slightly encouraging regarding mask wearing.









Sanidad propondrá que la mascarilla no sea obligatoria para estar en la playa pero sí durante los paseos


El Gobierno planteará la revisión de la ley de nueva normalidad que impone cubrirse nariz y boca en todos los casos, incluso estando solo en espacios abiertos




elpais.com


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> I think you are way to quick to accuse anyone who doesn't agree with your views as a conspiracy theorist and you like to do it as it suggests such people are not as informed and clever as you. However I am not suggesting anything sinister or manipulative in my question, I am merely asking if back in the trials a causal link was established , would the vaccine have been approved.


Totally inaccurate, you asked a question and I responded but you didn't offer your own opinion, do I ask again do YOU think it would be approved why do YOU think trials with children stopped ? 

I certainly am not that clever I do have 30 years experience in healthcare, others have experiences in teaching, working for local councils etc that makes them more knowledgeable than I but not necessarily cleverer. If you want a debate on a topic then you have to put forward an idea and an opinion on that idea... Otherwise what's the point ,how do we engage and learn if you simply ask a question sit back and wait for others to respond. I have no.opinions on conspiracy theories, but when you throw out a question with no opinion of your own then you are coming across as simply wanting to be negative and portray that there is something underhand. You don't have to agree with me, I don't really care, what I do care about is the constant negativity in an already crap situation.


----------



## Megsmum

Lynn R said:


> Slightly encouraging regarding mask wearing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sanidad propondrá que la mascarilla no sea obligatoria para estar en la playa pero sí durante los paseos
> 
> 
> El Gobierno planteará la revisión de la ley de nueva normalidad que impone cubrirse nariz y boca en todos los casos, incluso estando solo en espacios abiertos
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elpais.com



Hate the term, but hopefully the "new norm". Will be here sooner than later.


----------



## Lynn R

There is a noticeable change in tone in the reporting of concerns around the possible link (in rare cases) between the AZ vaccine and developing a particular kind of blood clots in the brain by British tabloids, now that more cases have emerged in the UK. No trace now of the kind of hysterical, jingoistic accusations of politically motivated sabotage they have been hurling at the EU for weeks.










UK Home | Daily Mail Online


MailOnline - get the latest breaking news, showbiz & celebrity photos, sport news & rumours, viral videos and top stories from MailOnline, Daily Mail and Mail on Sunday newspapers.




www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Megsmum

Lynn R said:


> There is a noticeable change in tone in the reporting of concerns around the possible link (in rare cases) between the AZ vaccine and developing a particular kind of blood clots in the brain by British tabloids, now that more cases have emerged in the UK. No trace now of the kind of hysterical, jingoistic accusations of politically motivated sabotage they have been hurling at the EU for weeks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK Home | Daily Mail Online
> 
> 
> MailOnline - get the latest breaking news, showbiz & celebrity photos, sport news & rumours, viral videos and top stories from MailOnline, Daily Mail and Mail on Sunday newspapers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk



Yes I've noticed this on other forums. Rhetoric suddenly reduced.


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## jimenato

kaipa said:


> As the AZ polemica rolls on now with the suspension of use with children surely the question should be : if there is a causal link with blood clotting and if this had been established in trials, would the vaccine have been approved?


Who knows? 

If you look at the risks with the contraceptive pill then the risks with the vaccine pale into insignificance - yet millions of women take the pill every day.

I have had the AZ vaccine and will have the second shot.

Am I worried? Not one jot.


----------



## kaipa

Lynn R said:


> There is a noticeable change in tone in the reporting of concerns around the possible link (in rare cases) between the AZ vaccine and developing a particular kind of blood clots in the brain by British tabloids, now that more cases have emerged in the UK. No trace now of the kind of hysterical, jingoistic accusations of politically motivated sabotage they have been hurling at the EU for weeks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UK Home | Daily Mail Online
> 
> 
> MailOnline - get the latest breaking news, showbiz & celebrity photos, sport news & rumours, viral videos and top stories from MailOnline, Daily Mail and Mail on Sunday newspapers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk


Yes I agree. The Express and Sun suddenly seem a bit subdued after spewing out their usual anti-EU bile. However, having said that I notice that their latest target appears to be Spain and what they perceive as its unjust treatment to Brits wishing to enter. At least the Spanish media dont go around whipping up such disguised xenophobia.


----------



## Megsmum

jimenato said:


> Who knows?
> 
> If you look at the risks with the contraceptive pill then the risks with the vaccine pale into insignificance - yet millions of women take the pill every day.
> 
> I have had the AZ vaccine and will have the second shot.
> 
> Am I worried? Not one jot.


I agree..although I have clotting issues Ill be guided by medics.


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> Yes I agree. The Express and Sun suddenly seem a bit subdued after spewing out their usual anti-EU bile. However, having said that I notice that their latest target appears to be Spain and what they perceive as its unjust treatment to Brits wishing to enter. At least the Spanish media dont go around whipping up such disguised xenophobia.


Yep and without the full facts to hand whilst forgetting the EU citizens jumping through hoops to stay in the UK and conveniently forgetting the UK's treatment of the windrush generation


----------



## jimenato

kaipa said:


> I think you are way to quick to accuse anyone who doesn't agree with your views as a conspiracy theorist and you like to do it as it suggests such people are not as informed and clever as you. However I am not suggesting anything sinister or manipulative in my question, I am merely asking if back in the trials a causal link was established , would the vaccine have been approved.


You didn't state a view so how can Megsmum disagree with it?


----------



## Megsmum

jimenato said:


> You didn't state a view so how can Megsmum disagree with it?


By typing


----------



## Love Karma

Megsmum said:


> Well obviously they'd suspend trials in children if issues Are occurring in the wider population, secondly, my understanding was that these issues were not occuring in trials and as most medical professionals will know, the wider the use of drug in the general population the more issues can and will arrive. This is normal for any drug or vaccine it's just that the press and public are more aware because of covid and it's impact on the world. No one would have a clue about the thousands of drug trials and MRHA and it's international equivalent if the guardian and the telegraph were as wrapped up in other research as they are in covid.
> 
> I do like your use of the phrase
> 
> if there is a causal link with blood clotting and if this had been established in trials, would the vaccine have been approved?
> 
> 
> What do you think? Very good at throwing out the old conspiracy theory without actually nailing your flag to the mast.
> 
> Personally, if clotting issues had arisen in trials it may still have been approved with warnings as to who could or couldn't have it. With recommendations as per every single drug on the market from aspirin which can kill individuals to mercaptopurine which is a drug used for blood cancers and also Crohn's disease. Both had approval both had side effects that showed up when used in the general population.


The big difference is that drugs such as Aspirin mercaptopurine and other generally available drugs is that they all come with a comprehensive list of possible side effects clearly written on a leaflet inside the box for the consumer to make their own decision whereas with the Vaccine you certainly are not given a long list of possible side effects before you get jabbed!


----------



## kaipa

Love Karma said:


> The big difference is that drugs such as Aspirin mercaptopurine and other generally available drugs is that they all come with a comprehensive list of possible side effects clearly written on a leaflet inside the box for the consumer to make their own decision whereas with the Vaccine you certainly are not given a long list of possible side effects before you get jabbed!


Yes good point. The very fact that the UK appears to be halting trials with AZ means that there is a possibility of a link. A month ago everyone in UK was strongly denying it ,suggesting it was being used as a political tool. Now the UK appears to be falling in line with EU and suspending some areas of use. If anyone it is the UK who have caused the problem as they were not prepared to halt the initial success of their vaccination program at any cost.


----------



## Megsmum

Love Karma said:


> The big difference is that drugs such as Aspirin mercaptopurine and other generally available drugs is that they all come with a comprehensive list of possible side effects clearly written on a leaflet inside the box for the consumer to make their own decision whereas with the Vaccine you certainly are not given a long list of possible side effects before you get jabbed!


Yes, I take your point here. I can understand people's fears it's all pretty unknown territory but what's the alternative now these vaccines are here and the world is pinning its future on them.. I suppose it simply comes down to individuals making a choice either they have it or they don't. I do agree though , informed consent is as the heart of medicine and we are going down this mass vaccination route without it fully known. I just don't see how else we get out of this medd


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## jimenato

Love Karma said:


> The big difference is that drugs such as Aspirin mercaptopurine and other generally available drugs is that they all come with a comprehensive list of possible side effects clearly written on a leaflet inside the box for the consumer to make their own decision whereas with the Vaccine you certainly are not given a long list of possible side effects before you get jabbed!



That's true of all vaccines - you don't get to see the packaging and leaflets.

However all the known side effects of the vaccines are online - for instance on the NHS website.


----------



## blondebob

jimenato said:


> *That's true of all vaccines - you don't get to see the packaging and leaflets.*
> 
> However all the known side effects of the vaccines are online - for instance on the NHS website.


Absolute scurrilous incorrect nonsense. All my flu vaccinations have come with packaging and leaflets shown and explained to me prior to administering. In fact I have the most recent (last Oct) in front of me........see pic below


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## Lynn R

When I have bought my flu vaccine from the farmacia in previous years, yes it came with the packaging containing the usual leaflet which includes information about possible side effects. However, when I had my first one at the health centre last year, under the Spanish public health system, they certainly didn't give me any packaging nor explanations about side effects.


----------



## Lynn R

Now I'm waiting for the EMA announcement at 4pm today for some idea about whether my first vaccination tomorrow with AZ will be going ahead or not. What a mess.


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## jimenato

blondebob said:


> Absolute scurrilous incorrect nonsense. All my flu vaccinations have come with packaging and leaflets shown and explained to me prior to administering. In fact I have the most recent (last Oct) in front of me........see pic below
> 
> View attachment 99417


Calm down dear!! 😂 

Don't know what happens in Spain - obviously there are some circumstances under which you get to see the leaflet and others where you don't.

Whatever - the information is available for anyone who wants to read it.


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## Isobella

Would any of them. AZ is the whipping boy. Pfizer reactions are never discussed...why? Take a look and this is just the UK



https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/975808/COVID-19_mRNA_Pfizer-BioNTech_Vaccine_Analysis_Print.pdf


----------



## Chopera

Lynn R said:


> When I have bought my flu vaccine from the farmacia in previous years, yes it came with the packaging containing the usual leaflet which includes information about possible side effects. However, when I had my first one at the health centre last year, under the Spanish public health system, they certainly didn't give me any packaging nor explanations about side effects.


Same for me.


----------



## Lynn R

Chopera said:


> Same for me.


I was given the pneumonoccus vaccine at the same time as the flu one last year, and I didn't get any information leaflet or explanation about possible side effects about that one either, I was just asked if I wanted it or not as it was being offered to people of my age for the first time.


----------



## Overandout

Isobella said:


> Would any of them. AZ is the whipping boy. Pfizer reactions are never discussed...why? Take a look and this is just the UK
> 
> 
> 
> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/975808/COVID-19_mRNA_Pfizer-BioNTech_Vaccine_Analysis_Print.pdf


Purely political !


----------



## kaipa

Isobella said:


> Would any of them. AZ is the whipping boy. Pfizer reactions are never discussed...why? Take a look and this is just the UK
> 
> 
> 
> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/975808/COVID-19_mRNA_Pfizer-BioNTech_Vaccine_Analysis_Print.pdf


The Pfizer reactions, I imagine, are not as conspicuous and more random than with AZ. The AZ problem was detected not by scientific research but by healthcare staff and centres and across a number of countries within set time periods. I am sure that if similar events occur with other vaccines we will hear of it. We just have to wait until 4.00pm to see what both groups announce- although I am sure everything will be couched in such terms as to suggest it offers more safety against Covid mortality than mortality through a blood clot.


----------



## Isobella

kaipa said:


> Yes I agree. The Express and Sun suddenly seem a bit subdued after spewing out their usual anti-EU bile. However, having said that I notice that their latest target appears to be Spain and what they perceive as its unjust treatment to Brits wishing to enter. At least the Spanish media dont go around whipping up such disguised xenophobia.


Thought you didn't read any of those papers. Looks plenty of anti EU stuff in the Express. What is quiet that there seems to be a shortage of vaccines. It is clear that orders due for UK have been frozen as publicity about another knock back for Australia revealed there are now 9 orders due to other countries "Pending" an export certificate.


----------



## Isobella

kaipa said:


> The Pfizer reactions, I imagine, are not as conspicuous and more random than with AZ. The AZ problem was detected not by scientific research but by healthcare staff and centres and across a number of countries within set time periods. I am sure that if similar events occur with other vaccines we will hear of it. We just have to wait until 4.00pm to see what both groups announce- although I am sure everything will be couched in such terms as to suggest it offers more safety against Covid mortality than mortality through a blood clot.


Look serious enough to be investigated, did you actually see the charts.


----------



## kaipa

So blood clotting is a possible side effect of AZ. Pretty much as expected. A link but low risk. Next will be giving the public a choice


----------



## RickES

blondebob said:


> Absolute scurrilous incorrect nonsense. All my flu vaccinations have come with packaging and leaflets shown and explained to me prior to administering. In fact I have the most recent (last Oct) in front of me........see pic below
> 
> View attachment 99417


That's not common in all countries. In 30+ years of getting a flu vaccine, I have never once been given any information at the time of the innoculation about potential side effects. In the US, that is.


----------



## Megsmum

My other daughter in her 30s been called for her vaccine. (UK) , Once borders open that visit looking more likely


----------



## Chancerz

I'm inclined to agree with Dr Mike Yeadon who in my humble opinion is an authority on this with his background (ex Pfizer Chief Medical Officer). Interview above.

These Covid vaccines are experimental and have been approved under an (EUA) Emergency Use Authorisation (It clearly states this on the vaccine bottles). They are in the live humans trials now with the current population and will be for another 2-3 years. Nobody knows what the outcome could be for individuals a few years down the line or what autoimmune diseases that could occur. Please do thorough research and make your decisions accordingly.... Oh and Google is censoring search results.. Most people use duckduckgo.com to search due to this. 









Emergency Use Authorization for Vaccines Explained


FDA explains the Emergency Use Authorization for Vaccines




www.fda.gov





They have toned down the language and created a dedicated page now (above link) from when i first looked into this but the fact remains the same, these vaccines are unapproved and have not gone through the rigourous testing previous vaccines have.


----------



## Megsmum

Chancerz said:


> I'm inclined to agree with Dr Mike Yeadon who in my humble opinion is an authority on this with his background (ex Pfizer Chief Medical Officer). Interview above.
> 
> These Covid vaccines are experimental and have been approved under an (EUA) Emergency Use Authorisation (It clearly states this on the vaccine bottles). They are in the live humans trials now with the current population and will be for another 2-3 years. Nobody knows what the outcome could be for individuals a few years down the line or what autoimmune diseases that could occur. Please do thorough research and make your decisions accordingly.... Oh and Google is censoring search results.. Most people use duckduckgo.com to search due to this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Emergency Use Authorization for Vaccines Explained
> 
> 
> FDA explains the Emergency Use Authorization for Vaccines
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fda.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They have toned down the language and created a dedicated page now (above link) from when i first looked into this but the fact remains the same, these vaccines are unapproved and have not gone through the rigourous testing previous vaccines have.


A genuine question will you be having the vaccine?


----------



## Megsmum

Debunked: No, a former Pfizer employee was not correct to say there is 'no need for vaccines'


Quotes attributed to Dr Mike Yeadon are inaccurate.




www.thejournal.ie





he also said Covid was over in the U.K. in December.....


----------



## Chancerz

I feel your question is loaded...

Genuine answer... Considering the survival rate of Covid for my age group is 99.99% I'm going to wait until more information has been gathered about the effects of the vaccine longer term. 

And yes.. The mainstream are doing their best to "debunk" anyone who speaks out against their narrative. They did the same with the great barrington declaration. Dr Mike Yeadon's credentials say it all.. Why is one Doctor an authority over another? Science is fluid and always has been..


----------



## blondebob

Lynn R said:


> When I have bought my flu vaccine from the farmacia in previous years, yes it came with the packaging containing the usual leaflet which includes information about possible side effects. However, when I had my first one at the health centre last year, under the Spanish public health system, they certainly didn't give me any packaging nor explanations about side effects.


Well they did me and all people I know experienced similar at the health centre


----------



## blondebob

Chancerz said:


> I feel your question is loaded...
> 
> Genuine answer... Considering the survival rate of Covid for my age group is 99.99% I'm going to wait until more information has been gathered about the effects of the vaccine longer term.
> 
> And yes.. The mainstream are doing their best to "debunk" anyone who speaks out against their narrative. They did the same with the great barrington declaration. Dr Mike Yeadon's credentials say it all.. Why is one Doctor an authority over another? Science is fluid and always has been..





Megsmum said:


> Debunked: No, a former Pfizer employee was not correct to say there is 'no need for vaccines'
> 
> 
> Quotes attributed to Dr Mike Yeadon are inaccurate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thejournal.ie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *he also said Covid was over in the U.K. in December.....*


And Boris said they'd have Covid beat in 12 weeks...............over 52 weeks ago 😅 And yet here we are


----------



## jimenato

Megsmum said:


> Debunked: No, a former Pfizer employee was not correct to say there is 'no need for vaccines'
> 
> 
> Quotes attributed to Dr Mike Yeadon are inaccurate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thejournal.ie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> he also said Covid was over in the U.K. in December.....


...October actually - and tens of thousands of people have died since then.


----------



## Megsmum

Chancerz said:


> I feel your question is loaded...
> 
> Genuine answer... Considering the survival rate of Covid for my age group is 99.99% I'm going to wait until more information has been gathered about the effects of the vaccine longer term.
> 
> And yes.. The mainstream are doing their best to "debunk" anyone who speaks out against their narrative. They did the same with the great barrington declaration. Dr Mike Yeadon's credentials say it all.. Why is one Doctor an authority over another? Science is fluid and always has been..


It really was not loaded. . It's up to individuals to assess their own individual risks while being guided by the medical professionals. Whilst I want the vaccine, I am post chemo and with clotting issues so also have to weigh up risk V reward. As I stand or sit now, the benefit of a vaccine outweigh the risk of me getting covid but I'd be lying if I didn't say I have concerns, however, I still believe that vaccination is the way out of this mess only time will tell


----------



## Megsmum

Fat fingers deleted


----------



## Megsmum

.

you make an interesting point and I wonder if the young who we have been consistently told have very little risk of covid apart from spreading to the now vaccine protected population will have the same point of view and uptake will reduce ? Variants I suppose will be the issue. I don't have an answer but I can see some validity in that argument.


----------



## kaipa

So now things are getting even crazier. Spain will not administer AZ for over 60s. UK will not administer it for under 30s. All in all this just provides more fuel for all the conspiracy groups, doubters etc.


----------



## kaipa

Meanwhile in Madrid Ayuso is claiming she will buy the Sputnik vaccine despite not having authority and now the government have reversed their rule about mask wearing on beaches and pools ( which was ridiculous in the first place)


----------



## Chopera

kaipa said:


> So now things are getting even crazier. Spain will not administer AZ for over 60s. UK will not administer it for under 30s. All in all this just provides more fuel for all the conspiracy groups, doubters etc.


From what I've read Spain has stopped giving the AZ vaccine to the *under* 60s









Sanidad y las comunidades acuerdan suspender la vacunación con AstraZeneca en menores de 60 años


El ministerio y las autonomías pactan seguir vacunando con el fármaco de la compañía anglosueca a personas de entre 60 y 65 años




elpais.com





Again it would help if you provided some kind of links to show what your statements are based on.


----------



## kaipa

Sorry I watch the news so I dont use links
However....https://elpais.com/sociedad/2021-04-07/sanidad-propone-paralizar-temporalmente-la-vacunacion-con-astrazeneca-en-menores-de-60-anos.html

And having read it I see I was mistaken and you are correct. Apologies.


----------



## kaipa

kaipa said:


> Sorry I watch the news so I dont use links
> However....https://elpais.com/sociedad/2021-04-07/sanidad-propone-paralizar-temporalmente-la-vacunacion-con-astrazeneca-en-menores-de-60-anos.html


And having read it I see I was mistaken and its suspending use to under 60s


----------



## Chopera

kaipa said:


> And having read it I see I was mistaken and its suspending use to under 60s


Fair enough. Since I am under 60 I guess that leaves Pfizer or Moderna for me.


----------



## Overandout

Chopera said:


> Fair enough. Since I am under 60 I guess that leaves Pfizer or Moderna for me.


 Or Sputnik! You are in Madrid after all!


----------



## kaipa

Overandout said:


> Or Sputnik! You are in Madrid after all!



Surely the Sputnik thing is Ayuso trying to grab headlines for the election?. She isn't allowed to purchase independently. I am amazed that Madrilenos support her in such large numbers but I suppose many are opposed to Sanchez as the think he will tax them and impose communism is everywhere!!


----------



## Lynn R

I've been for my first jab this morning (AZ) at the mass vaccination centre set up in a large marquee at our town's feria ground (I think it's serving quite a wide area, have heard that people living in Nerja and in inland villages have their appointments there). My appointment was for 11.02 and I got there at 10.55. I counted 20 people ahead of me waiting outside, had my name checked off on the list at 10.59 and went inside to sit down and wait. Was called forward at 11.10 and given the leaflet about the benefits of the vaccine and possible side effects, asked if I had any allergies and for details of any medication I was taking, and told that my appointment for the second dose would be on 1 July and I'd be given a letter with the details, and would not receive a phone call about the second appointment. Then ushered to a table where two staff with laptops and a printer checked my details on the computer and printed off the confirmation of the second appointment for me. Then on to a nurse who administered the jab, painless. Finally at 11.15 to the waiting area where we were asked to sit down for 15 minutes before leaving. The Alcalde and an entourage including some bigwig from the Junta de Andalucia arrived on a publicity visit and went around having a few words with various people, including me. I left at 11.30 to catch the bus home, so the whole thing didn't take long at all.

I was relieved there was so little standing in line in the open air involved as I start to feel ill if I have to stand for any length of time. No ill effects at all so far, not even a sore arm, but that could change.

I haven't seen any reports yet on what the likely effect on the vaccination campaign of Spain's decision not to give the AZ vaccine to under 60s will be, but I can't help thinking there is very little chance of them achieving the target of 70% of the adult population being vaccinated by the end of summer without it.


----------



## blondebob

Lynn R said:


> I've been for my first jab this morning (AZ) at the mass vaccination centre set up in a large marquee at our town's feria ground (I think it's serving quite a wide area, have heard that people living in Nerja and in inland villages have their appointments there). My appointment was for 11.02 and I got there at 10.55. I counted 20 people ahead of me waiting outside, had my name checked off on the list at 10.59 and went inside to sit down and wait.* Was called forward at 11.10 and given the leaflet about the benefits of the vaccine and possible side effects,* asked if I had any allergies and for details of any medication I was taken, and told that my appointment for the second dose would be on 1 July and I'd be given a letter with the details, and would not receive a phone call about the second appointment. Then ushered to a table where two staff with laptops and a printer checked my details on the computer and printed off the confirmation of the second appointment for me. Then on to a nurse who administered the jab, painless. Finally at 11.15 to the waiting area where we were asked to sit down for 15 minutes before leaving. The Alcalde and an entourage including some bigwig from the *Junta de Andalucia arrived on a publicity visit and went around having a few words with various people, including me.* I left at 11.30 to catch the bus home, so the whole thing didn't take long at all.
> 
> I was relieved there was so little standing in line in the open air involved as I start to feel ill if I have to stand for any length of time. No ill effects at all so far, not even a sore arm, but that could change.
> 
> I haven't seen any reports yet on what the likely effect on the vaccination campaign of Spain's decision not to give the AZ vaccine to under 60s will be, but I can't help thinking there is very little chance of them achieving the target of 70% of the adult population being vaccinated by the end of summer without it.


As it should be  and why doesn't that surprise me 😅


----------



## Overandout

kaipa said:


> Surely the Sputnik thing is Ayuso trying to grab headlines for the election?. She isn't allowed to purchase independently. I am amazed that Madrilenos support her in such large numbers but I suppose many are opposed to Sanchez as the think he will tax them and impose communism is everywhere!!


Of course it is, she is going to score a home run when Sanchez tells her and all the Madrileños that they have to wait for their centrally procured vaccine instead of being able to buy their own stock.

Great propoganda really, you have to hand it to the PP, in terms of marketing they play the game very well. They will win the election and sadly I have to concede that they deserve it. Podemos putting Iglesias in for Madrid was a suicide move. 

People need to do business and trade, so virtually all autonomos and small business owners will vote PP because they see them as the party who allows trade to continue. The health considerations (both pandemic control and the state of the public health service) are secondary when there is a financial crisis.


----------



## Lynn R

blondebob said:


> As it should be  and why doesn't that surprise me 😅


The strange thing is that the printed sheet makes no mention of the blood clotting issue (rare though it may be) or give warnings about possible signs of blood clots developing which people should watch out for.


----------



## kaipa

Lynn R said:


> The strange thing is that the printed sheet makes no mention of the blood clotting issue (rare though it may be) or give warnings about possible signs of blood clots developing which people should watch out for.


It wont as up until yesterday the EMA had said there was no causal link. From now on it will have it as a potential side-effect


----------



## kaipa

Overandout said:


> Of course it is, she is going to score a home run when Sanchez tells her and all the Madrileños that they have to wait for their centrally procured vaccine instead of being able to buy their own stock.
> 
> Great propoganda really, you have to hand it to the PP, in terms of marketing they play the game very well. They will win the election and sadly I have to concede that they deserve it. Podemos putting Iglesias in for Madrid was a suicide move.
> 
> People need to do business and trade, so virtually all autonomos and small business owners will vote PP because they see them as the party who allows trade to continue. The health considerations (both pandemic control and the state of the public health service) are secondary when there is a financial crisis.


You are probably right as the opposition parties each crave the spotlight so much its difficult for them to secure decent pacts. What a mess. You are also right about all the small businesses voting for PP. Sometimes feel Spain is terribly short sighted when it comes to its economy. Fast becoming a nation of shopkeepers. I have a student who is a graduate, studied with me from B1 to now C1 English. Extremely clever and committed and yet the only job she has is sweeping the floor of a shop part time. It makes me so angry that a country can effectively spend money educating its young but totally fail to provide work for them ( or even care) It is such a waste of talent and resources and will come back to bite Spain when they are overtaken by Far-eastern countries as they skill their youngster for the coming technological world.!


----------



## Love Karma

It has been confirmed that Spain will use the AstraZeneca Vaccine for people aged between 60 to 69

https://elpais.com/sociedad/2021-04-08/ ... -anos.html


----------



## Chopera

60% of those in Madrid who were invited to have the AZ vaccine are not turning up. Congratulations to Macron, Merkel, Von der Leyen et al. This must seem like a great victory. I guess even more public funds will now have to be used to buy the 10 times more expensive Pfizer vaccine, and turn in an even greater profit for Pfizer and BioNTech









El dispar rechazo a AstraZeneca: 60% en Madrid, 20% en La Rioja y casos anecdóticos en Aragón o Canarias


Madrid afirma que dos tercios de los convocados a pincharse faltaron a la cita. Otras comunidades calculan un impacto menor. Las inmunizaciones caen un 7% en 24 horas




elpais.com


----------



## Isobella

Chopera said:


> 60% of those in Madrid who were invited to have the AZ vaccine are not turning up. Congratulations to Macron, Merkel, Von der Leyen et al. This must seem like a great victory. I guess even more public funds will now have to be used to buy the 10 times more expensive Pfizer vaccine, and turn in an even greater profit for Pfizer and BioNTech
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> El dispar rechazo a AstraZeneca: 60% en Madrid, 20% en La Rioja y casos anecdóticos en Aragón o Canarias
> 
> 
> Madrid afirma que dos tercios de los convocados a pincharse faltaron a la cita. Otras comunidades calculan un impacto menor. Las inmunizaciones caen un 7% en 24 horas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elpais.com


Some appointments have been missed in the UK too. Worst hit will be the poor countries AZ was to be a life saver.
J&J vaccine now under investigation for side effects. One GP said she had no reports of side effects from patients except a sore arm. Since all the bad publicity she said lots phoning up thinking they have a blood clot.









European regulators are watching J&J's vaccine for unusual blood clots


The European Medicines Agency is investigating reports of clots in people who received J&J's vaccine. The shot has not yet been given out in Europe.




www.businessinsider.com


----------



## Chopera

Chopera said:


> 60% of those in Madrid who were invited to have the AZ vaccine are not turning up. Congratulations to Macron, Merkel, Von der Leyen et al. This must seem like a great victory.* I guess even more public funds will now have to be used to buy the 10 times more expensive Pfizer vaccine, and turn in an even greater profit for Pfizer and BioNTech*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> El dispar rechazo a AstraZeneca: 60% en Madrid, 20% en La Rioja y casos anecdóticos en Aragón o Canarias
> 
> 
> Madrid afirma que dos tercios de los convocados a pincharse faltaron a la cita. Otras comunidades calculan un impacto menor. Las inmunizaciones caen un 7% en 24 horas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elpais.com


Looks like Pfizer will be increasing the price from 15€ to 20€ per dose from next year. I guess you still have to add the storage costs on top of that.









Bulgarian PM reveals price for EU's new vaccine contract with Pfizer


Bulgarian Prime Minister Boyko Borissov has revealed that a big new vaccine supply contract that the European Union is seeking from Pfizer-BioNTech (PFE.N), (22UAy.DE) from 2022 will be at a significantly increased price.




www.reuters.com


----------



## kaipa

So the guardian now has an article on how a UK scientist drew up a diagnostic test for the blood clotting from AZ. It's strange how the tone of the article seems so straightforward and obvious compared with only a couple of weeks ago when I very much doubt the article would have been published for fear that it supported the non-scientific- conspiracy side of the debate. It as if we are meant to forget that intially anyone claiming possible causal links was dismissed as uninformed and intellectually challenged. The worrying thing is it shows how swiftly and totally our views and positions can change.









How UK doctor linked rare blood-clotting to AstraZeneca Covid jab


Prof Marie Scully identified correct diagnostic test at University College London hospital after seeing rare side-effect in patient




www.theguardian.com


----------



## Beach buddy

kaipa said:


> So the guardian now has an article on how a UK scientist drew up a diagnostic test for the blood clotting from AZ. It's strange how the tone of the article seems so straightforward and obvious compared with only a couple of weeks ago when I very much doubt the article would have been published for fear that it supported the non-scientific- conspiracy side of the debate. It as if we are meant to forget that intially anyone claiming possible causal links was dismissed as uninformed and intellectually challenged. The worrying thing is it shows how swiftly and totally our views and positions can change.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How UK doctor linked rare blood-clotting to AstraZeneca Covid jab
> 
> 
> Prof Marie Scully identified correct diagnostic test at University College London hospital after seeing rare side-effect in patient
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


----------



## Beach buddy

Looks like(according to BBC news this morning, that the Johnson and Johnson jab has been withheld temporarily.


----------



## kaipa

Beach buddy said:


> Looks like(according to BBC news this morning, that the Johnson and Johnson jab has been withheld temporarily.


Yes USA and Europe I think have halted use.Not sure about UK who seem a bit gung-ho about vaccines at the moment. I see in UK they are now considering mixing vaccines for 1st and 2nd doses where there are supply problems. There was a very good interview on Sky today with head of a US company producing a vaccine who was saying that many of the things that we are doing are very new and no one is certain of the full consequences. He was pointing out that the technology used in the AZ and J and J vaccine is different from the moderna/Pfizer jab and that there was a known link between that vaccine technology and low risk clotting and was surprised that AZ had not been aware of that. He was also saying that mixing vaccines requires more research but that the desire for some governments ( implying uk) to win popular support was making them push health officials to do this sooner than later.


----------



## Roy C

The UK haven't given the go ahead yet for J&J but i think USA and Europe had approved it but is paused. 
The UK have been researching mixing AZ and Pfizer , this is being extended to Moderna and another, so i suppose based on the findings, they'll make a decision.


----------



## Lynn R

kaipa said:


> Yes USA and Europe I think have halted use.Not sure about UK who seem a bit gung-ho about vaccines at the moment. I see in UK they are now considering mixing vaccines for 1st and 2nd doses where there are supply problems. There was a very good interview on Sky today with head of a US company producing a vaccine who was saying that many of the things that we are doing are very new and no one is certain of the full consequences. He was pointing out that the technology used in the AZ and J and J vaccine is different from the moderna/Pfizer jab and that there was a known link between that vaccine technology and low risk clotting and was surprised that AZ had not been aware of that. He was also saying that mixing vaccines requires more research but that the desire for some governments ( implying uk) to win popular support was making them push health officials to do this sooner than later.


France and Germany have both already taken the decision to give the second dose with a different vaccine to those under the age limit (60?) who had received the first dose of Astra Zeneca before the decision was reached not to use it for people in their age group.









Germany to give different second vaccine to AstraZeneca recipients under 60


People aged under 60 who have been given a first dose of the Oxford-AstraZeneca coronavirus vaccine in Germany will receive a different jab for their second dose, federal and regional health ministers…




www.france24.com













France opts for mRNA vaccines for second coronavirus shot


France's top health advisory body in charge of COVID-19 vaccines recommended on Friday that recipients of a first dose of the AstraZeneca shot who are under 55 should receive a second dose with a so-called messenger RNA vaccine.




www.reuters.com


----------



## Alcalaina

kaipa said:


> Yes USA and Europe I think have halted use.


I think J&J have halted the supply, the decision wasn’t made by their customers.


----------



## Lynn R

It has been reported in the Italian press that the EU will not renew contracts with AZ and J&J for supplies of their vaccines when the current contracts end.









La UE no renovará contratos con Astrazeneca y Johnson&Johnson


El objetivo de la Unión Europea según 'La Stampa' es centrarse en los sueros de ARN mensajero Vacuna de Janssen: población diana, efectos secundarios y dosis disponibles




www.malagahoy.es


----------



## xabiaxica

Lynn R said:


> It has been reported in the Italian press that the EU will not renew contracts with AZ and J&J for supplies of their vaccines when the current contracts end.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> La UE no renovará contratos con Astrazeneca y Johnson&Johnson
> 
> 
> El objetivo de la Unión Europea según 'La Stampa' es centrarse en los sueros de ARN mensajero Vacuna de Janssen: población diana, efectos secundarios y dosis disponibles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.malagahoy.es


It was on Telecinco - not AZ nor Janssen La UE no renovará contratos con Astrazeneca y Janssen

Funnily enough, I was talking to a UK based doctor friend, & I said that while I was fine being given the AZ - I expect to be called in the next week or so - if the govt has decided to only give it to such a small percentage of people, I couldn't see why they would even bother with it!


----------



## Overandout

The "non-renovation" of the contracts sounds quite dramatic and shocking, but in reality, how many people will there be left to vaccinate after the end of 2021 in the EU?

I'm guessing (hoping) that at least the majority of EU citizens will have already been vaccinated by the time the contracts are up for renewal and the second wave of contracts will significantly smaller quantities.


----------



## Lynn R

xabiaxica said:


> if the govt has decided to only give it to such a small percentage of people, I couldn't see why they would even bother with it!


Denmark have decided not to bother with it (from El Pais today):-

La Autoridad Sanitaria Danesa ha confirmado este miércoles que el país dejará de usar la vacuna de AstraZeneca en su plan contra el coronavirus. "La Autoridad Sanitaria Danesa ha decidido continuar la vacunación contra la covid-19 sin la vacuna de AstraZeneca", dice el organismo en un comunicado. Según las previsiones del Gobierno, todos los daneses estarán vacunados a principios de agosto.


----------



## Love Karma

Tragic.......Worrying for anyone who has had or due the AZ vaccine. 









Muere un hombre de 30 años vacunado con AstraZeneca


El Ministerio de Sanidad está investigando el fallecimiento de un profesor en Toledo por eventos trombóticos tras recibir la vacuna de AstraZeneca.



as.com


----------



## Roy C

It looks like Pfizer will hike the price when it gets rid of biontech which is a shame.


----------



## stevesainty

Love Karma said:


> Tragic.......Worrying for anyone who has had or due the AZ vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Muere un hombre de 30 años vacunado con AstraZeneca
> 
> 
> El Ministerio de Sanidad está investigando el fallecimiento de un profesor en Toledo por eventos trombóticos tras recibir la vacuna de AstraZeneca.
> 
> 
> 
> as.com


Tragic, yes. Worrying, not at all, even the article says having the AZ would prevent 306.6 people out of 100,000 entering ICU and only 3 out of 100,000 would get blood clots. A whole lot safer than crossing the road.


----------



## xabiaxica

stevesainty said:


> Tragic, yes. Worrying, not at all, even the article says having the AZ would prevent 306.6 people out of 100,000 entering ICU and only 3 out of 100,000 would get blood clots. A whole lot safer than crossing the road.


You took the words right out of my mouth.


----------



## Chopera

Overandout said:


> The "non-renovation" of the contracts sounds quite dramatic and shocking, but in reality, how many people will there be left to vaccinate after the end of 2021 in the EU?
> 
> I'm guessing (hoping) that at least the majority of EU citizens will have already been vaccinated by the time the contracts are up for renewal and the second wave of contracts will significantly smaller quantities.


It depends if they have to keep tweeking it each year to combat different variants. Some people saying it'll end up being a yearly dose, like the flu vaccine.


----------



## Love Karma

xabiaxica said:


> You took the words right out of my mouth.


But I'm a natural worrier and with more and more similar kind of cases cropping up daily and Governments and countries various recent comments and reactions to the AZ Virus I tend to maybe read into it a bit more than is good for me.

As for the flippant crossing the road comment.........I expect the dead 30 yr old crossed the road many times in his all too short life prior to his jab.


----------



## kaipa

What I find worrying is that now people seem to be openly saying that the AZ and Jand J vaccines were known to have a risk of being linked to specific blood clotting as it had been observed with vaccines using similar technologies.


----------



## Overandout

Chopera said:


> It depends if they have to keep tweeking it each year to combat different variants. Some people saying it'll end up being a yearly dose, like the flu vaccine.


Yes, I'm guessing that's where it will have a bigger effect.

This is a serious consideration now I think. Previously I would have had the AZ jab without any reservations given that the risks are minimal, but if it means that there will not be any compatible booster jabs or variant supplements available in the future, maybe I will think again and hold out for an alternative. 

On the other hand, do we really think that any country will be capable of gearing up to give jabs the whole population every year? There will come a point (in the not too distant future I think) that only the elderly and at risk will have the vaccination maintained.


----------



## blondebob

kaipa said:


> What I find worrying is that now people seem to be openly saying that the AZ and Jand J vaccines were known to have a risk of being linked to specific blood clotting as it had been observed with vaccines using similar technologies.


Totally agree


----------



## Overandout

Love Karma said:


> But I'm a natural worrier and with more and more similar kind of cases cropping up daily and Governments and countries various recent comments and reactions to the AZ Virus I tend to maybe read into it a bit more than is good for me.


If you're a natural worrier, wouldn't that make you more likely to have any vaccine you can? Or am I missing something here?


----------



## Chopera

Love Karma said:


> But I'm a natural worrier and with more and more similar kind of cases cropping up daily and Governments and countries various recent comments and reactions to the AZ Virus I tend to maybe read into it a bit more than is good for me.
> 
> As for the flippant crossing the road comment.........I expect the dead 30 yr old crossed the road many times in his all too short life prior to his jab.


What's flippant about adding context to a statistic? If it really helps illustrate the point?

Maybe you'd like to go round to the hundreds of families of people dying from covid each day, and point out that at least they weren't that one unlucky 30 year old who died from a blood clot?


----------



## Love Karma

Chopera said:


> What's flippant about adding context to a statistic? If it really helps illustrate the point?
> 
> Maybe you'd like to go round to the hundreds of families of people dying from covid each day, and point out that at least they weren't that one unlucky 30 year old who died from a blood clot?


Why? You'd be far better at it than me with your expert statistical knowlege.


----------



## Love Karma

Overandout said:


> If you're a natural worrier, wouldn't that make you more likely to have any vaccine you can? Or am I missing something here?


No and yes


----------



## Chopera

Love Karma said:


> Why? You'd be far better at it than me with your expert statistical knowlege.


It's basic schoolboy maths


----------



## blondebob

Chopera said:


> It's basic *schoolboy* maths


Schoolboy is very unPC word to use in this day and age 😅 😅 😅


----------



## blondebob

Apparently in the U.S Nearly 40% of Marines so far have declined the Vaccine.


----------



## xabiaxica

blondebob said:


> Schoolboy is very unPC word to use in this day and age 😅 😅 😅


Nah - thisisSpain


----------



## blondebob

xabiaxica said:


> Nah - thisisSpain


Twas a lighthearted comment hence the 3 laughing emoji's


----------



## Isobella

See two threads are now discussing the side effects. This is supposed to be vaccine progress.  

Ibuprofen has lots of dangerous side effects too. Happy with the progress in West Sussex where our surgery is giving jabs to 40yr olds. Doesn't really matter if some don't want it, seem to be a minority so will be enough herd immunity to reduce symptoms to a common cold.


----------



## Megsmum

Mty


blondebob said:


> Apparently in the U.S Nearly 40% of Marines so far have declined the Vaccine.


Which apparently is not that unusual for the military based on the history of experimental non approved vaccinations being given to them. Everyone is entitled to say no wherever they live... except China ! If people have genuine concerns and are worried I think, on reflection, they have the right to say no to covid as much as they have the right to refuse any medical treatment if they think, on balance refusing is more beneficial to them.


----------



## blondebob

Megsmum said:


> Mty
> 
> Which apparently is not that unusual for the military based on the history of experimental non approved vaccinations being given to them. Everyone is entitled to say no wherever they live... except China ! If people have genuine concerns and are worried I think, on reflection, they have the right to say no to covid as much as they have the right to refuse any medical treatment if they think, on balance refusing is more beneficial to them.


Just within the last hour on the BBC News: Voluntary is the keyword reported......whether people believe that or not is a different matter


----------



## Chancerz

stevesainty said:


> Tragic, yes. Worrying, not at all, even the article says having the AZ would prevent 306.6 people out of 100,000 entering ICU and only 3 out of 100,000 would get blood clots. A whole lot safer than crossing the road.


Just because the article says it... it doesn't make it true. 

Everything is hypothetical and guess work at the moment. The science is fluid and evolving as we speak.. Every week positions and information that was previously regarded as reliable is changing. Nobody knows the true answer to anything or how this will play out.

I'm seriously astounded and saddend at the amount of people that would have an experimental jab let alone a cocktail of experimental jabs without waiting until the research phase is over to see what the data shows.


----------



## Megsmum

Chancerz said:


> Just because the article says it... it doesn't make it true.
> 
> Everything is hypothetical and guess work at the moment. The science is fluid and evolving as we speak.. Every week positions and information that was previously regarded as reliable is changing. Nobody knows the true answer to anything or how this will play out.
> 
> I'm seriously astounded and saddend at the amount of people that would have an experimental jab let alone a cocktail of experimental jabs without waiting until the research phase is over to see what the data shows.


Why? To your second point

People's lives have been devastated by lockdown, jobs gone, the young have lost over a year spent in moderate isolation, people have died alone, families separated, travel restricted, economies devastated, companies bankrupt...of course people are going to grab the first lifeboat they see, for many like you, they are equally astounded that you'd want it to continue and wait because from a government perspective that's the plan .. Whilst I've read the links you gave etc the people who you link to have no sway over governmental decisions. Therefore if they're right in their assertions then they and their followers ( for want of a better word) don't have to take the vaccine... they can feel secure in the knowledge that they're not taking an experimental vaccine, for others it's a different matter. It's everyone's right to have or not have. Both sides , not saying you, are ready to tell the other how stupid they are, which does appear to be the way of the world, be it Brexit or vivid, when in fact not everything is black and white and not everyone had the scientific knowledge to actually read papers in depth and question them, you, like everyone else listens and reads information from various sources and makes judgements on what they hear rather than what they've studied. For every expert who says one thing another will say the opposite, that's how science works and progresses. Who knows what will happen in the future. At some point in our lives we all put out faith in something, cross our fingers and hope and by having the vaccine or not having the vaccine that's what we are all doing.


----------



## Chopera

Chancerz said:


> Just because the article says it... it doesn't make it true.
> 
> Everything is hypothetical and guess work at the moment. The science is fluid and evolving as we speak.. Every week positions and information that was previously regarded as reliable is changing. Nobody knows the true answer to anything or how this will play out.
> 
> I'm seriously astounded and saddend at the amount of people that would have an experimental jab let alone a cocktail of experimental jabs without waiting until the research phase is over to see what the data shows.


What we do know is that people are dying from covid. This is happening. I have seen it. So for people with a reasonably high risk of dying from covid it's not simply a question of just waiting until the science decides the vaccines are completely safe. Because doing nothing carries a risk of dying from covid anyway. You need to weigh up the risk of doing nothing and dying from covid against the risk of dying from a vaccine side effect. 

On top of that you might also want to factor in any potential reduction in virus transmission brought about by vaccination, which might also reduce the chances of other vulnerable people dying from covid. But I think that is still even more of a grey area.

And one final thing - if there weren't people prepared to have an experimental jab there would be no vaccine trials, and no vaccines at all. Somebody has to be the first. Maybe they deserve a little more respect, and a little less mockery?


----------



## Chancerz

Megsmum said:


> Why? To your second point
> 
> People's lives have been devastated by lockdown, jobs gone, the young have lost over a year spent in moderate isolation, people have died alone, families separated, travel restricted, economies devastated, companies bankrupt...of course people are going to grab the first lifeboat they see, for many like you, they are equally astounded that you'd want it to continue and wait because from a government perspective that's the plan .. Whilst I've read the links you gave etc the people who you link to have no sway over governmental decisions. Therefore if they're right in their assertions then they and their followers ( for want of a better word) don't have to take the vaccine... they can feel secure in the knowledge that they're not taking an experimental vaccine, for others it's a different matter. It's everyone's right to have or not have. Both sides , not saying you, are ready to tell the other how stupid they are, which does appear to be the way of the world, be it Brexit or vivid, when in fact not everything is black and white and not everyone had the scientific knowledge to actually read papers in depth and question them, you, like everyone else listens and reads information from various sources and makes judgements on what they hear rather than what they've studied. For every expert who says one thing another will say the opposite, that's how science works and progresses. Who knows what will happen in the future. At some point in our lives we all put out faith in something, cross our fingers and hope and by having the vaccine or not having the vaccine that's what we are all doing.


I agree with you 100%.

We don't actually know how many people have died due to the lockdown or conversely how many people would have died from covid if we didn't have a lockdown?!

If we didn't have a lockdown with all the restrictions would the uptake on the vaccine be anywhere near what it is now?

Are people taking the vaccine to protect themselves against the virus or to get out of lockdown? If it's the latter, then to me personally it feels a lot like coercion. 

(My questions are rhetorical)

I just sincerely hope from the bottom of my heart that these vaccines don't injure/kill more people long term than the virus.

"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing"

As humans we consume information in it's many forms go with our gut feeling and hope we're right.


----------



## Chancerz

Chopera said:


> *Maybe they deserve a little more respect, and a little less mockery?*


The intention of my post was not to mock. I apologise if it came across like that.



Chopera said:


> You need to weigh up the risk of doing nothing and dying from covid against the risk of dying from a vaccine side effect.


Exactly.. For under 70's you have a 99.97% chance of survival Vs whatever % protection each individual vaccine offers.


----------



## Lynn R

Overandout said:


> And one final thing - if there weren't people prepared to have an experimental jab there would be no vaccine trials, and no vaccines at all. Somebody has to be the first. Maybe they deserve a little more respect, and a little less mockery?


Exactly. If many thousands of people across the world were willing to take that risk by participating in trials, who is any of us to think we are so special that we should not be expected to expose ourselves to any risk whatsoever but leave it to others to do that on our behalf?


----------



## Megsmum

Lynn R said:


> Exactly. If many thousands of people across the world were willing to take that risk by participating in trials, who is any of us to think we are so special that we should not be expected to expose ourselves to any risk whatsoever but leave it to others to do that on our behalf?


Absolutely. I was about to post similar.

I'm eternally grateful to those who went through Chemotherapy trials so that I have a chance.


----------



## Chopera

Chancerz said:


> The intention of my post was not to mock. I apologise if it came across like that.
> 
> 
> ...


Perhaps mockery wasn't the best word for me to use. There just seemed to be the assumption that people were taking the vaccine because they didn't appreciate the risks, when maybe they did


----------



## Chancerz

You are all correct. However this feels a lot different than voluntary trials.

People who would not normally put themselves forward for a medical trial now may feel coerced to take the vaccine because they want to go to the pub or on holiday or see their family or just to end lockdown and get back to normal.

A trial normally involves a closed number of willing people so if there is an adverse effect it doesn't put the whole population at risk.

Right now the population is the trial.

This is the point I'm trying to make, with respect.

I appreciate all the people that take part in medical voluntary trials without them we would not have cured so many diseases with the excellent vaccines of the past.


----------



## kaipa

Chopera said:


> It's basic schoolboy maths



Actually it really is not as simple as you say. Whilst having the AZ vaccine will expose you to a fairly fixed statistic your exposure to the virus will vary considerably. A person alone on an island would have zero risk of covid but some risk of a side effect if taking the vaccine. Similarly someone who completely shields but has the vaccine exposes them a degree of risk from a side effect but possibly near zero from Covid. In other words it's hard to statistically equate the two- hence the reason people might be hesitant about having the vaccine.


----------



## Chopera

kaipa said:


> Actually it really is not as simple as you say. Whilst having the AZ vaccine will expose you to a fairly fixed statistic your exposure to the virus will vary considerably. A person alone on an island would have zero risk of covid but some risk of a side effect if taking the vaccine. Similarly someone who completely shields but has the vaccine exposes them a degree of risk from a side effect but possibly near zero from Covid. In other words it's hard to statistically equate the two- hence the reason people might be hesitant about having the vaccine.


My comment originally related to blood clots in particular, where it is straight forward to work out the probability of you dying from a blood clot induced by a vaccine, and the probability of you dying from covid, based on your age and medical condition. We have data available to make that decision. Of course the data might change.

However I completely understand people who are low risk being hesitant or refusing to have the vaccine. Those people also tend to be younger and might therefore be susceptible to any unknown long term side effects from the vaccines. I have two children (8 and 11 years old) and eventually they will be invited. The risk of them dying from covid is near zero. The transmission from children appears to be near zero. So why should they even risk having a vaccine so soon? And as a parent why should I force them into it? I might as well wait until they are old enough to decide for themselves, and when there is more data.

On the other hand I am in a vulnerable group, mainly because I have cancer. I can't wait to have that needle stuck in my arm. I don't care if it turns out that the mRNA vaccine makes people infertile or whatever, or whether I'll grow an extra head in 20 years time. I'll just be grateful to still be alive!


----------



## kalohi

Chancerz said:


> ....I'm seriously astounded and saddend at the amount of people that would have an experimental jab let alone a cocktail of experimental jabs without waiting until the research phase is over to see what the data shows.


Astounded why? There are so many people who, like me, have to go to work every day and who by doing so are putting themselves at high risk of catching Covid due to the nature of the job. I am also in 2 risk groups due to medical conditions, so I am literally taking my life into my hands every single day when I go to work. After doing this for so many months my mental state is in shambles. So yes, you better believe that I'll RUN to get my jab, any jab, when my turn comes.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Have had my first dosis of AtraZeneca in the Zendal hospital in Madrid!
All good so far (it was on Tuesday afternoon), just felt absolutely exhausted the next day. Good oganization there and the actual process took just about half an hour from the moment I turned up at the hospital. There were queues, but always moving and plenty of space. The biggest problem was getting there as it's a long way from where we live, about 40 mins by car.


----------



## jimenato

Here is a podcast from the BBC (only 9 mins) which puts into perspective the risk of blood clots from the vaccines and the risks from other things - notably the contraceptive pill, and life itself.

Should alleviate peoples worries.


----------



## Overandout

jimenato said:


> Should alleviate peoples worries.


I think you're expecting a bit too much from some people!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

RE attitudes of people to having the vaccine
I have told all my students, @ 50 people and they all said one of 2 things "you're lucky" or " congratulations" so you can see by those reactions that people are keen to the vaccine. Only one person, an acquaintance of mine, has said that she is not sure whether to get the vaccine or not and that I find surprising because her father died of Covid and she was petrified about going out for a while.... So from my small survey people are more than happy to get it and as soon as possible.


----------



## xabiaxica

Received the text yesterday evening - I get my first AZ jab on Monday

Marina Alta health authority, comunidad valenciana, year of birth 1959.

This is from the link that came with the text


----------



## lard_ascending

Pesky Wesky said:


> Have had my first dosis of AtraZeneca in the Zendal hospital in Madrid!
> All good so far (it was on Tuesday afternoon), just felt absolutely exhausted the next day. Good oganization there and the actual process took just about half an hour from the moment I turned up at the hospital. There were queues, but always moving and plenty of space. The biggest problem was getting there as it's a long way from where we live, about 40 mins by car.


I don't know how they are organising things in Madrid. A friend and his wife ( 68 and 67 ) had a dose in Zendal last week. My wife (65) was offered a dose in Wanda two weeks ago. I'm 66 but have heard nothing yet.


----------



## kalohi

lard_ascending said:


> I don't know how they are organising things in Madrid. A friend and his wife ( 68 and 67 ) had a dose in Zendal last week. My wife (65) was offered a dose in Wanda two weeks ago. I'm 66 but have heard nothing yet.


Here in Andalucia they're giving the AstraZeneca vaccine first to the 60-65 year olds (in descending order of age) and then to the 66-69 year olds (also in descending order of age). So the order for the vaccine by age is 65, 64, 63, 62, 61, 60, 69, 68, 67, 66. From what you're saying it appears that they're doing the same thing in Madrid.


----------



## lard_ascending

kalohi said:


> Here in Andalucia they're giving the AstraZeneca vaccine first to the 60-65 year olds (in descending order of age) and then to the 66-69 year olds (also in descending order of age). So the order for the vaccine by age is 65, 64, 63, 62, 61, 60, 69, 68, 67, 66. From what you're saying it appears that they're doing the same thing in Madrid.


What a way to run a railway!


----------



## Overandout

I have mentioned before about my wife's family in Madrid, the oldest member who is over 80 got theur first shot two weeks ago. Next in line will be a 74 year old who has still not heard anything. 
From what we are hearing most other CAs are a few age groups ahead.


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## Chopera

88 year old family member in Madrid had first dose a couple of weeks ago. 76 year old family member in Madrid had first dose yesterday. Both Pfizer.


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## kalohi

lard_ascending said:


> What a way to run a railway!


It's scheduled that way because for a while AstraZeneca was for people aged 60-65, and then they upped the limit to 69. So they decided to finish off vaccinating the people aged 60-65, and then move on to the group they added on, of 66-69 year olds.


----------



## blondebob

WOW that is a resounding NON.......Just hope they don't get wasted









France Covid: Mass vaccination centre closes due to lack of demand


The Palais des Expositions in Nice opened at 9am Saturday offering AstraZeneca jabs to high-risk workers, but was forced to close by 1pm after just 58 people signed up.




www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Pesky Wesky

lard_ascending said:


> I don't know how they are organising things in Madrid. A friend and his wife ( 68 and 67 ) had a dose in Zendal last week. My wife (65) was offered a dose in Wanda two weeks ago. I'm 66 but have heard nothing yet.


Well, I am younger and and have already had my first dose as I mentioned, and my husband, who is also younger was also offered a date, this is probably because he is a teacher though. Unfortunately his phone had a virus and he did not get the SMS... He phoned a "hotline" to put his case and they said they would get back to him... Not sure of the number, but here's one you can try 900102112. As there have been changes in what vaccine they give to what age group things in Madrid at least are a bit topsy turvy


----------



## lard_ascending

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, I am younger and and have already had my first dose as I mentioned, and my husband, who is also younger was also offered a date, this is probably because he is a teacher though. Unfortunately his phone had a virus and he did not get the SMS... He phoned a "hotline" to put his case and they said they would get back to him... Not sure of the number, but here's one you can try 900102112. As there have been changes in what vaccine they give to what age group things in Madrid at least are a bit topsy turvy


Thanks for the number but I don't think I'm an urgent case so I'll just be patient. 

Also I'm not looking forward to the long journey to Wanda. I'm hoping that I get Zendal.


----------



## Isobella

blondebob said:


> WOW that is a resounding NON.......Just hope they don't get wasted
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> France Covid: Mass vaccination centre closes due to lack of demand
> 
> 
> The Palais des Expositions in Nice opened at 9am Saturday offering AstraZeneca jabs to high-risk workers, but was forced to close by 1pm after just 58 people signed up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk


Yet Macron is mouthing that France will overtake the UKs success soon.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

lard_ascending said:


> Thanks for the number but I don't think I'm an urgent case so I'll just be patient.
> 
> Also I'm not looking forward to the long journey to Wanda. I'm hoping that I get Zendal.


More and more places for vaccinations are opening up, but it's getting quite complicated with the age thing, the high riskers, the type of vaccine available and the number of vaccines available. This article (12th April) explains it quite well I think, and there is another phone number. 
Vacuna pacientes de alto riesgo en Madrid


----------



## kaipa

I have just been to my central salud in Torrevieja
Very busy with people asking about vaccinations. Lots of old people clearly confused about the process etc so it took quite a while to get to talk with someone at reception. I needed to check they had my new phone number. They confirmed that an SMS would be sent and they appear to be calling people now at the 60-70 group. If you dont speak Spanish I would advise taking someone with you to translate as they were clearly very busy and not in the mood for taking a long time over each enquiry. That said they did seem to working pretty hard


----------



## Megsmum

Anyone got the current updated figured for Spain. Cases per 100000 vaccine figures and expected vaccines?


----------



## stevesainty

I don´t know about expected vaccines, but this is the site we use to get the other figures.



https://www.mscbs.gob.es/profesionales/saludPublica/ccayes/alertasActual/nCov/documentos/Actualizacion_355_COVID-19.pdf



Just found this about vaccines available, last updated on 16 April



https://www.mscbs.gob.es/profesionales/saludPublica/ccayes/alertasActual/nCov/documentos/Informe_GIV_comunicacion_20210416.pdf


----------



## Lynn R

Megsmum said:


> Anyone got the current updated figured for Spain. Cases per 100000 vaccine figures and expected vaccines?


Another 1.2 million doses of the Pfizer vaccine being distributed to the CAs today, but still no news from the USA regarding the outcome of the safety review which has meant the 146k doses of the Janssen single dose vaccine already delivered to Spain being kept in storage.









Llegan a España 1,2 millones de dosis de la vacuna de Pfizer


Sanidad las está distribuyendo ya entre las comunidades autónomas. Vacunación del Covid-19 en España: mapa y gráficos por comunidades autónomas




www.malagahoy.es





I know the Moderna one is being used as well as both my husband (71) and a friend of similar age had their first doses last week with that one.

As of today Sanidad are proposing that the gap between doses of Pfizer (currently 3 weeks) and Moderna (4 weeks) be extended to 8 weeks. Don't know how that would affect people who have already been given appointments for their second jabs.









Covid-19: Sanidad propone retrasar ocho semanas la segunda dosis de las vacunas de Pfizer y Moderna


Países como Francia, Italia o Reino Unido ya lo han puesto en práctica para proteger al mayor número de población en menos tiempo




www.larazon.es


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## Lynn R

Deleted.


----------



## Lynn R

The President of the Junta de Andalucia has confirmed today that the Junta is conducting a study on the feasibility of allowing fully vaccinated people to travel between provinces and attend events - apparently via a QR code.









La Junta pretende que los inmunes puedan viajar y asistir a eventos


Juanma Moreno ha indicado que su Gobierno está estudiando y trabajando en esa posibilidad




andaluciainformacion.es


----------



## Isobella

Megsmum said:


> Anyone got the current updated figured for Spain. Cases per 100000 vaccine figures and expected vaccines?


Vaccine figures are usually in the Spanish national newspapers. I read that Spain has 111 cases per 100,000, France 348 and UK 29. Greece and Germany now rising. Also saw this in the Telegraph.

*Spain to trial mixing Covid vaccines after restricting AstraZeneca shot*
Spain will study the effects of mixing different coronavirus vaccines, government researchers said on Monday, responding to shifting guidelines on the safety of the AstraZeneca's shot.


----------



## Lynn R

According to this map, Megsmum, Extremadura looks to be doing very well with 96.3% of doses received having been administered as at 16 April - the highest proportion in all of Spain.









España supera los 50 millones de dosis administradas de la vacuna contra la Covid


Así avanza la vacunación contra el coronavirus en España en cada una de sus comunidades autónomas. Dosis recibidas y utilizadas por comunidades y mapa de las vacunas del Covid-19 por autonomías Evolución de la vacunación del coronavirus en Andalucía




www.malagahoy.es


----------



## Megsmum

Lynn R said:


> According to this map, Megsmum, Extremadura looks to be doing very well with 96.3% of doses received having been administered as at 16 April - the highest proportion in all of Spain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> España supera los 50 millones de dosis administradas de la vacuna contra la Covid
> 
> 
> Así avanza la vacunación contra el coronavirus en España en cada una de sus comunidades autónomas. Dosis recibidas y utilizadas por comunidades y mapa de las vacunas del Covid-19 por autonomías Evolución de la vacunación del coronavirus en Andalucía
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.malagahoy.es



Yep I read that too. Good for us....


----------



## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> Anyone got the current updated figured for Spain. Cases per 100000 vaccine figures and expected vaccines?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> I have just been to my central salud in Torrevieja
> Very busy with people asking about vaccinations. Lots of old people clearly confused about the process etc so it took quite a while to get to talk with someone at reception. I needed to check they had my new phone number. They confirmed that an SMS would be sent and they appear to be calling people now at the 60-70 group. If you dont speak Spanish I would advise taking someone with you to translate as they were clearly very busy and not in the mood for taking a long time over each enquiry. That said they did seem to working pretty hard


I think for queries about Covid and vaccinations you are advised to phone rather than go. It's still out there with figures in Spain currently rising.Don't go to enclosed places if not necessary. From the 14th of April:
_Las* comunidades autónomas* han notificado este miércoles al Ministerio de Sanidad 10.474 nuevos casos de COVID-19, 5.613 de ellos diagnosticados en las últimas 24 horas. Estas cifras son superiores a las del mismo día de la semana pasada, cuando se notificaron 8.788 positivos._


----------



## Lynn R

Spain's Public Health Commission has agreed today to maintain the existing gaps between vaccine doses (3 weeks for Pfizer, 4 weeks for Moderna and 12 weeks for AstraZeneca) rather than extending the Pfizer and Moderna ones to 8 weeks as was proposed yesterday.









Salud Pública acuerda no retrasar la segunda dosis de la vacuna de Pfizer y Moderna


Se descarta espaciar los tiempos para inmunizar a un mayor número de personas Salud Pública debate espaciar las segundas dosis de la vacuna en menores de 79 años La EMA avisa a España: la segunda dosis de Pfizer y Moderna debe administrarse como indica el prospecto




www.malagahoy.es


----------



## Megsmum

Spoke to my nurse this morning. I'm being called to the health center in the next two weeks for my Pfizer jab


----------



## blondebob

Spain starting to administer the Janssen One shot Vaccine









Spanje begint met gebruiken van het Janssen-vaccin.


Nadat het Europees Medicijn Agentschap (EMA) het Janssen vaccin opnieuw goedgekeurd heeft na meldingen van




www.spanjeemigratie.com


----------



## Isobella

Megsmum said:


> Spoke to my nurse this morning. I'm being called to the health center in the next two weeks for my Pfizer jab


According to Malaga Sur Extremadura has one of the highest vaccination rates per capita at 10% having received 2 doses. Andalucia is 7.6%, Valencia 6.6%


----------



## kaipa

Got my call for jab on Monday. AZ vaccine. SMS. Torrevieja. Age 60


----------



## Megsmum

Isobella said:


> According to Malaga Sur Extremadura has one of the highest vaccination rates per capita at 10% having received 2 doses. Andalucia is 7.6%, Valencia 6.6%


Yep. I had a hospital appointment this morning, we past two vaccination centres both with long queues...met several people in the village this morning all scheduled


----------



## Lynn R

From The Guardian's live feed re Coronavirus:-

"The European commission said it expects to seal the world’s biggest vaccine supply deal within days, buying up to 1.8bn doses of Pfizer’s Covid vaccine for the next few years, Reuters writes.
Speaking during a visit to Pfizer’s vaccine plant in Puurs, Belgium, Ursula von der Leyen, the commission president, said the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccines would be delivered over 2021-23.
The agreement would be enough to inoculate the 450m EU population for two years.
It is the third contract agreed by the bloc with the two companies, which have already agreed to supply 600m doses of the two-dose vaccine this year under two previous contracts."


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> From The Guardian's live feed re Coronavirus:-
> 
> "The European commission said it expects to seal the world’s biggest vaccine supply deal within days, buying up to 1.8bn doses of Pfizer’s Covid vaccine for the next few years, Reuters writes.
> Speaking during a visit to Pfizer’s vaccine plant in Puurs, Belgium, Ursula von der Leyen, the commission president, said the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccines would be delivered over 2021-23.
> The agreement would be enough to inoculate the 450m EU population for two years.
> It is the third contract agreed by the bloc with the two companies, which have already agreed to supply 600m doses of the two-dose vaccine this year under two previous contracts."


Great! Evidence that "they" are actually looking towards the future!
On the other hand not sure how binding these contracts are as supplies have failed several times....


----------



## Alcalaina

Pesky Wesky said:


> Great! Evidence that "they" are actually looking towards the future!
> On the other hand not sure how binding these contracts are as supplies have failed several times....


The contracts ARE binding, though deliveries can't always be made by the specified dates (for various reasons). But since the EU now have powers to stop the export of vaccines by producers within the Union I imagine Pfizer will be pretty reliable going forward.


----------



## Chopera

Getting my first jab on Sunday in Madrid. I'm 52 but in a vulnerable group. No idea which vaccine it'll be. Somebody mentioned it might be Moderna for vulnerable patients here. I'll find out tomorrow.


----------



## MataMata

Going for mine (Pfizer) on Monday in Orihuela, also given date/time for 2nd jab on May 15th.

Age 70.

Wife is 69 with two high risk indicators but no effort being made to prioritise, I'd happily swap my appt. with her if it were possible!


----------



## MataMata

blondebob said:


> WOW that is a resounding NON.......Just hope they don't get wasted
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> France Covid: Mass vaccination centre closes due to lack of demand
> 
> 
> The Palais des Expositions in Nice opened at 9am Saturday offering AstraZeneca jabs to high-risk workers, but was forced to close by 1pm after just 58 people signed up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk


France has a long history of vaccine scepticism.

Why are many French people still anti-vax?


----------



## Lynn R

Good news on deliveries of vaccines (from El Mundo this morning):


La ministra de Sanidad, Carolina Darias, subrayó este lunes que hoy se han distribuido *más de dos millones de dosis de vacunas* frente a la Covid-19 y "es la primera vez que en un solo día se reparte esta cantidad".
Así lo recalcó en un acto celebrado en La Rioja donde, junto con la consejera de Salud de La Rioja, Sara Alba, recepcionó en el Laboratorio Farmacéutico Riofarco, ubicado en el municipio de Villamediana de Iregua, un nuevo envío de vacunas de Pfizer/BioNTech contra la Covid-19, informa Servimedia.
Darias señaló que hoy han llegado 1.700.000 dosis de la vacuna de *Pfizer-BioNTech*, 188.000 de *Moderna* y 103.000 de *AstraZeneca* que han comenzado a distribuirse por las comunidades autónomas.
Ante esta llegada de vacunas, la ministra puntualizó que "hoy lunes 26 de abril estamos distribuyendo por toda la geografía de este país más de dos millones de dosis de vacunas. Es la primera vez que en un solo día repartimos más de dos millones de dosis".
Darias, ha anunciado que *desde hoy y cada lunes de mayo llegarán a España 1,7 millones de dosis *de la vacuna de Pfizer, lo que significará "aumentar notablemente la capacidad de llegada de dosis" contra la covid-19. Sanidad distribuye más de dos millones de dosis de vacunas contra el Covid en un solo día


----------



## Overandout

Chopera said:


> Getting my first jab on Sunday in Madrid. I'm 52 but in a vulnerable group. No idea which vaccine it'll be. Somebody mentioned it might be Moderna for vulnerable patients here. I'll find out tomorrow.


Which one did you get Chopera?


----------



## Isobella

Jaz


MataMata said:


> France has a long history of vaccine scepticism.
> 
> Why are many French people still anti-vax?


Have seen a lot of articles on this but 2 days ago charts showed that France has given more vaccines than Spain?


----------



## Chopera

Overandout said:


> Which one did you get Chopera?


It was indeed Moderna. I had a slightly sore arm this morning, which was cured by a paracetemol. In the end I received the vaccine at my hospital rather than my local health centre. I received a recorded phone call on friday evening, and the appointment also appeared in the "portal del paciente" app that the hospital uses.


----------



## xabiaxica

Isobella said:


> Jaz
> 
> 
> Have seen a lot of articles on this but 2 days ago charts showed that France has given more vaccines than Spain?


As always, it depends how the figures are presented. It's all in the small print...


----------



## alpinist

My parents both had their jabs in Andalucía in the last three weeks and are booked in for second ones in the coming fortnight. Given their ages it clearly took longer to get the first than it would have been in the UK, but it's looking like it'll be faster to get both in Spain.


----------



## Megsmum

Called in for my vaccination on Wednesday. Chap, checked my last date of chemotherapy and confirmed my blood clotting issues. Then booked me for Wednesday 11.30. I will be having either Pfizer or moderna.

I was trying to confirm which vaccine but he thought I wanted to know what it was for. He sounded astounded and said covid obviously... Then he realised what I meant lol


----------



## kaipa

Just had mine Torrevieja. Very very quick. Walked in, showed card and ID. Sat down. Got jab. AZ.


----------



## Alcalaina

So does anyone have any idea when Group 5C, people aged between 65 and 70, might get their jabs? We really do seem to be the missing generation!


----------



## Lynn R

Alcalaina said:


> So does anyone have any idea when Group 5C, people aged between 65 and 70, might get their jabs? We really do seem to be the missing generation!


I've been seeing lots of posts on social media from people in this age group who have been contacted and given appointments locally for their first vaccination, so they do appear to have started them in some areas.


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> Just had mine Torrevieja. Very very quick. Walked in, showed card and ID. Sat down. Got jab. AZ.


You sat down?


Most of us stood in front of the 'jabber', rolled up a sleeve, were jabbed & only then sat in the 'waiting to leave area' for 15 mins before being given our freedom!


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## Megsmum

I...


xabiaxica said:


> You sat down?
> 
> 
> Most of us stood in front of the 'jabber', rolled up a sleeve, were jabbed & only then sat in the 'waiting to leave area' for 15 mins before being given our freedom!


Husband sat down for his.. then moved to a waiting room for 15 minutes.


----------



## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> I...
> 
> Husband sat down for his.. then moved to a waiting room for 15 minutes.


To be fair there were chairs if anyone felt they needed one, & the nurse did ask. 

Most of us opted to stay on our feet - fewer chairs to be sanitised & certainly faster!


----------



## Isobella

xabiaxica said:


> As always, it depends how the figures are presented. It's all in the small print...
> 
> View attachment 99498
> View attachment 99499
> View attachment 99500
> View attachment 99501
> View attachment 99502
> View attachment 99503


I think 1 graph would have been enough! Just been reading an article in Spectator. Mainly about EU countries stockpiling but 2 graphs show that France and Italy have given more jabs than Spain. Germany top after UK. All the countries have 1 million or more doses stockpiled.









The EU will regret suing AstraZeneca


Well, that will teach them to go around manufacturing a vaccine against a global virus at cost price, and at record speed. The European Union has today said it is planning to take legal action against the pharmaceuticals conglomerate AstraZeneca for failing to deliver enough doses of the Oxford...




www.spectator.co.uk


----------



## kaipa

Alcalaina said:


> So does anyone have any idea when Group 5C, people aged between 65 and 70, might get their jabs? We really do seem to be the missing generation!


They have started this group but of course different areas will have different numbers of people but it is happening.


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## kaipa

I find it slightly odd that Valencia ( the largest mainland tourist area ) is posting the lowest contagions given how bad it was in February. The same thing happened last summer with the islands all saying that they had next to no contagions but then reporting huge outbreaks later on. I am pretty certain numbers are being massaged to enable restrictions to be lifted in time for the tourist season.


----------



## Lynn R

Lynn R said:


> I've been seeing lots of posts on social media from people in this age group who have been contacted and given appointments locally for their first vaccination, so they do appear to have started them in some areas.


Have just read 5 new comments from people living in various areas of La Axarquia who have been called for their first vaccinations this week - aged between 66 and 69.


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## kaipa

Thought I had been lucky and escaped any side effects from the AZ vaccine but yesterday 24 hours after the jab I noticed my arm was hurting a little when I lifted it. Took a paracetamol and thought nothing of it. Later on started to feel a bit tired. Went to bed and within a few minutes was hit by chills then a full on fever which kept me awake all night and left me drained today. Still feel pretty crap.


----------



## Overandout

kaipa said:


> Thought I had been lucky and escaped any side effects from the AZ vaccine but yesterday 24 hours after the jab I noticed my arm was hurting a little when I lifted it. Took a paracetamol and thought nothing of it. Later on started to feel a bit tired. Went to bed and within a few minutes was hit by chills then a full on fever which kept me awake all night and left me drained today. Still feel pretty crap.


Hope you're feeling better soon. Both my sisters in the UK suffered for several days after the AZ vaccine. Seems to be fairly normal and nothing to worry about, but I'm sure someone will cite it as evidence that it it isn't safe, or that it is altering your DNA, controlloing your mind, turning you into a 5G homing beacon or somesuch rubbish!


----------



## kaipa

I suppose the question is how does it compare, in terms of side effects with pfizer/ moderna etc. Obviously for working folk a bad reaction will keep you off work which many cant afford.


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## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> I suppose the question is how does it compare, in terms of side effects with pfizer/ moderna etc. Obviously for working folk a bad reaction will keep you off work which many cant afford.


I think it's very dependent on each individual.. I'm having one of those two today. My daughters in UK had AZ one, eldest same symptoms as yourself the other none. Whilst, yes , some can't afford the time off if work , 48 hours is better than weeks , months or more with Covid. Again it's a judgment call. Hope you feel better soon


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## Megsmum

Having my fifteen minutes post vaccine sit down.

I had moderna. Second dose in four weeks on the 26th MAY!
So I'll be fully vaccinated by June

I'm so bloody happy I could cry


----------



## alpinist

kaipa said:


> I suppose the question is how does it compare, in terms of side effects with pfizer/ moderna etc. Obviously for working folk a bad reaction will keep you off work which many cant afford.


Answers here: Our latest analysis of COVID vaccine reports is out now (joinzoe.com) The ZOE research has been fantastic throughout the pandemic.


----------



## Isobella

Overandout said:


> Hope you're feeling better soon. Both my sisters in the UK suffered for several days after the AZ vaccine. Seems to be fairly normal and nothing to worry about, but I'm sure someone will cite it as evidence that it it isn't safe, or that it is altering your DNA, controlloing your mind, turning you into a 5G homing beacon or somesuch rubbish!


We had Pfizer, no side effects. OH had a red patch for a couple of days. I usually have a sore arm with the flu jab. Daughter didn’t feel well for a couple of days with AZ.
I think if some are scared of having the jab and expect to be ill they will be! All the differing vaccines have lots of reports of issues.


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## Overandout

It could just be coinicidence but the people I know who have had Pfizer have had no noticeable effects (apart from the sore arm for a few hours, yet all those who had AZ werer quite poorly for at least a few days. 
Could just be luck, I guess and I really don't want to be labelled as a conspirationist, I'd have the AZ vaccine tomorrow if Ayuso would give it to me!


----------



## stevesainty

Overandout said:


> It could just be coinicidence but the people I know who have had Pfizer have had no noticeable effects (apart from the sore arm for a few hours, yet all those who had AZ werer quite poorly for at least a few days.
> Could just be luck, I guess and I really don't want to be labelled as a conspirationist, I'd have the AZ vaccine tomorrow if Ayuso would give it to me!


I am 65 and had AZ in Torrevieja. No side effects whatsoever, not even a sore arm.


----------



## Isobella

Overandout said:


> It could just be coinicidence but the people I know who have had Pfizer have had no noticeable effects (apart from the sore arm for a few hours, yet all those who had AZ werer quite poorly for at least a few days.
> Could just be luck, I guess and I really don't want to be labelled as a conspirationist, I'd have the AZ vaccine tomorrow if Ayuso would give it to me!


I know a lot who has had the 2 doses of AZ and had no symptoms although they are mainly in the 60+ age group.


----------



## Overandout

I must just know a lot of unlucky people!


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## jimenato

I felt rough as hell 24 hours after the first AZ jab. Completely took me by surprise - wasn't expecting it at all.

I'm glad - shows it's doing something.


----------



## alpinist

Overandout said:


> It could just be coinicidence but the people I know who have had Pfizer have had no noticeable effects (apart from the sore arm for a few hours, yet all those who had AZ werer quite poorly for at least a few days.
> Could just be luck, I guess and I really don't want to be labelled as a conspirationist, I'd have the AZ vaccine tomorrow if Ayuso would give it to me!


Read the ZOE site I posted above, they've discovered it's not a coincidence - AZ hits harder on first dose, PFZ on second. Also, impact of side effects increases as age decreases.


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## Megsmum

Moderna yesterday...very VERY sore arm.. including neck area. Slight nausea also tired but I'm still in post chemo and cancer recovery so any side effects could simply be that.

I also have a very sore left knee that had absolutely nothing to do with the vaccine LOL 😂

There's a huge amount of information on Pfizer and AZ can't see much about moderna?


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## Relyat

1st Astra Zeneca was on Tuesday. I'm not keen on needles despite giving blood for decades and genuinely didn't feel a thing. 
Felt "a bit rough" Wednesday and had an early night and felt fine yesterday, although the site of the vaccination is still tender this morning. 
Mrs R is a few years older than me with existing lung condition and it's just been announced that this group will now start to be called.


----------



## virgil

Megsmum said:


> Moderna
> 
> There's a huge amount of information on Pfizer and AZ can't see much about moderna?


"_Vaccine, vaccine, vaccine, vaccine, I'm begging of you, please don't hesitate_" 









Moderna vaccine in the UK: What we know about Britain's third jab


Moderna rollout follows the Pfizer and AstraZeneca vaccines, which began in December and January respectively




www.telegraph.co.uk


----------



## Megsmum

virgil said:


> "_Vaccine, vaccine, vaccine, vaccine, I'm begging of you, please don't hesitate_"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moderna vaccine in the UK: What we know about Britain's third jab
> 
> 
> Moderna rollout follows the Pfizer and AstraZeneca vaccines, which began in December and January respectively
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.telegraph.co.uk


I've had mine.... I just asked the question about moderna!


----------



## kaipa

Anyone know what the time period for over 60 group who had AZ for their 2nd dose. I know that today the under 60 group is being delay by a month but what about the 60 plus? How long do they need to wait?


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## Lynn R

kaipa said:


> Anyone know what the time period for over 60 group who had AZ for their 2nd dose. I know that today the under 60 group is being delay by a month but what about the 60 plus? How long do they need to wait?


I've had my first jab with AstraZeneca (aged 64) and have an appointment for the second one on 1st July. The gap is 12 weeks. I don't think that should be affected by them wanting to wait for the results of the study into the effects of mixing the vaccines as that only relates to those under 60, the key workers, who have received their first AZ dose, and as far as I am aware the policy of giving AZ to those in their sixties has not changed.


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## Megsmum

Husband was 12 weeks and given second appointment day of his first 

My second dose is four weeks after my first , again appointment given on the day of my first 

62 & 63


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## kaipa

So I guess it depends on where you get it. I have heard some saying its 3 weeks others saying 12. I hope I am fully vaxed by end of June as I dont want to hang around all summer waiting for second dose. I guess everything is still in a state of flux so who knows!


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## Lynn R

kaipa said:


> So I guess it depends on where you get it. I have heard some saying its 3 weeks others saying 12. I hope I am fully vaxed by end of June as I dont want to hang around all summer waiting for second dose. I guess everything is still in a state of flux so who knows!


In my area it has been 3 weeks for those who had the Pfizer vaccine, 4 weeks for Moderna and 12 weeks for Astra Zeneca. Were you not given your appointment for the second dose when you had your first one?


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## kaipa

No. Not given a date. Told they would SMS second date when it was decided


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## Lynn R

I see one of the options on the table as to what to do about those key workers under 60 who have had a first dose of AZ is not to give them a second dose at all, of any vaccine. But wouldn't that mean those people would never count as fully vaccinated and they would not, therefore, be able to access the "vaccine passports" if and when they are introduced?

I have to say, if I were one of those workers I would be livid with the Spanish Government and health authorities today, in the situation they have been left in.


----------



## Megsmum

Lynn R said:


> In my area it has been 3 weeks for those who had the Pfizer vaccine, 4 weeks for Moderna and 12 weeks for Astra Zeneca. Were you not given your appointment for the second dose when you had your first one?


Same here



kaipa said:


> No. Not given a date. Told they would SMS second date when it was decided


I'd find that unsettling TBH. I


----------



## Megsmum

Lynn R said:


> I see one of the options on the table as to what to do about those key workers under 60 who have had a first dose of AZ is not to give them a second dose at all, of any vaccine. But wouldn't that mean those people would never count as fully vaccinated and they would not, therefore, be able to access the "vaccine passports" if and when they are introduced?
> 
> I have to say, if I were one of those workers I would be livid with the Spanish Government and health authorities today, in the situation they have been left in.


I've seen that mooted in the UK. The theory being, they.mighr not get a second dose but they'd receive a booster in the winter ?


----------



## kalohi

kaipa said:


> Anyone know what the time period for over 60 group who had AZ for their 2nd dose. I know that today the under 60 group is being delay by a month but what about the 60 plus? How long do they need to wait?


I'm 61 and got the first AZ dose two weeks ago. I was given an appointment for 12 weeks later (8 July) for the second dose. I'm in Seville.


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## Lynn R

Megsmum said:


> I've seen that mooted in the UK. The theory being, they.mighr not get a second dose but they'd receive a booster in the winter ?


Maybe so, but as I asked,where would that leave them with regard to a "vaccine passport"?


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## kalohi

kaipa said:


> No. Not given a date. Told they would SMS second date when it was decided


This happened to my mother-in-law (who is Spanish, here in Seville). She got the Pfizer vaccine so she was due the second dose 3 weeks later. She was very nervous because she hadn't been given an appointment for the second dose, but the day before the 3 weeks were up she received an SMS with her appointment - for the next day, at exactly the 3 week mark. It was very unsettling for her to be left hanging and wondering if she'd been forgotten for the second dose, but they did in fact come through for her.


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## MataMata

MataMata said:


> Wife is 69 with two high risk indicators but no effort being made to prioritise, I'd happily swap my appt. with her if it were possible!


Finally got hers yesterday, also Pfizer but done at the local salud not Orihuela like me.


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## Relyat

I have my appointment for the second one on the 20th of July


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## Barriej

My FIL at 82 has been told he has to wait until the single dose vaccines arrive as he is in an 'at risk' group. The same for a friend of ours who is 70.
This is in Polop, however both of their partners who are younger but without health issues have had the first doses in Benidorm.

We are private but have contacted the local health centre and have been told they will get round to us at some point. 
Im not that bothered as there are no active cases in our area anyway and less than 10 in most of the surrounding towns.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> No. Not given a date. Told they would SMS second date when it was decided


Same here in Madrid for my second dose. Meanwhile my daughter and husband, both teachers and both supposedly "essential workers" have still not been given the first dosis. It has to be said that my husband first was passed over because of problems with the age + AstraZeneca, then was passed over because the SMS never arrived and finally has been told repeatedly over a month that he will be called,but hasn't . My daughter was due to be vaccinated when they stopped AstraZeneca for the first time and has not been called since despite 3 or 4 follow up calls by her school...


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## Megsmum

Lynn R said:


> Maybe so, but as I asked,where would that leave them with regard to a "vaccine passport"?




Not sure but I've also read that there's equally possibly that one vaccine might be sufficient for travel . and that travel is not dependent on both vaccines but PCR tests.. maybe that'll be their only choice?


----------



## Chopera

Pesky Wesky said:


> Same here in Madrid for my second dose. Meanwhile my daughter and husband, both teachers and both supposedly "essential workers" have still not been given the first dosis. It has to be said that my husband first was passed over because of problems with the age + AstraZeneca, then was passed over because the SMS never arrived and finally has been told repeatedly over a month that he will be called,but hasn't . My daughter was due to be vaccinated when they stopped AstraZeneca for the first time and has not been called since despite 3 or 4 follow up calls by her school...


I was given an expected date for my second dose, when I received the first dose. Although I only received the appointment for the first dose 48 hours in advance. I think it's quite hard to generalise though. It might depend on the hospital or health centre that is administering the vaccine.

Also all the teachers at my kids' school were vaccinated before Easter. They appeared to be towards the front of the queue.


----------



## MataMata

Chopera said:


> I was given an expected date for my second dose, when I received the first dose. Although I only received the appointment for the first dose 48 hours in advance.


Same here for both of us, appt for 2nd dose in the first SMS.

Spain have tried to stick to the vaccine manufacturers recommendations for second doses which is why it appears they are behind some others in actual numbers vaccinated.

UK seem fixated on getting a first dose in and a second as and when making the numbers look more impressive, appearances are all that matter to BoJo and Handcock.


----------



## Chopera

MataMata said:


> Same here for both of us, appt for 2nd dose in the first SMS.
> 
> Spain have tried to stick to the vaccine manufacturers recommendations for second doses which is why it appears they are behind some others in actual numbers vaccinated.
> 
> UK seem fixated on getting a first dose in and a second as and when making the numbers look more impressive, appearances are all that matter to BoJo and Handcock.


I'm pretty sure it was Blair who first publicly suggested delaying the second dose. The idea being it's better to have say half the population with 60% immunity rather than a quarter of the population with 90% immunity. I think it's a reasonable approach that seems to have worked, although it's too early to tell for sure.


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## Isobella

Uk strategy does seem to be working. Compare the deaths and hospital admissions with the rest of Europe. UK has vaccinated nearly 15 million 2 nd doses too. More than some have managed for the first.


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## Chopera

Isobella said:


> Uk strategy does seem to be working. Compare the deaths and hospital admissions with the rest of Europe. UK has vaccinated nearly 15 million 2 nd doses too. More than some have managed for the first.


I read a while back that even after just one dose, those who do catch covid are very unlikely to be hospitalised by it, and that seems to be what's happened in the UK. I think France chose not to delay the second dose and, given the situation with their ICUs, might start to wonder if it made the right choice.


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## Megsmum

Isobella said:


> Uk strategy does seem to be working. Compare the deaths and hospital admissions with the rest of Europe. UK has vaccinated nearly 15 million 2 nd doses too. More than some have managed for the first.





Chopera said:


> I read a while back that even after just one dose, those who do catch covid are very unlikely to be hospitalised by it, and that seems to be what's happened in the UK. I think France chose not to delay the second dose and, given the situation with their ICUs, might start to wonder if it made the right choice.


Exactly this. Because of the efficacy of the first dose... The odds of you ending up in hospital with a serious illness is reduced and let's be honest all restrictions everywhere in the UK and in the EU were all about stopping hospitals from being overwhelmed. The UK also started earlier than others BUT equally it made huge mistakes and has found itself with one of the highest death tolls.
Time will tell who was correct but as it stands now..the UK has definitely reduced ICU patients, deaths etc. I'm unsure of the r rate as obviously people can still catch and spread it.
I'm much happier with Spain's roll out now, more than I was, even eight weeks ago. France, from what I've seen is in dire straits...have no idea what they're up to I understand Germany not in such a great place either? There is no doubt the UK will have vaccinated a major proportion of its population long before the rest, in many regions they're also now calling in those in their 20s, but it's still very postcode related and I've friends in their 50s still waiting and a friend in Wales was waiting for second AZ 14 weeks past first due to insufficient vaccine deliveries. I suspect those scenarios will be playing out in most countries in the world.
However, I do hate forum pissing contests, and I don't care who had done what statistically..I just want jabs in arms, in whatever country, so that children can play freely without masks, the elderly can see loved ones, that families can get to work and put food on the table and that various industries can function fully again to add to the economic.well being of all countries.


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## stevec2x

I now know of a couple of friends who had the single shot Jansen vaccine this week. That should help speed things up!


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## Megsmum

stevec2x said:


> I now know of a couple of friends who had the single shot Jansen vaccine this week. That should help speed things up!


That's good to hear. Definitely speed things up


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## Alcalaina

kaipa said:


> So I guess it depends on where you get it. I have heard some saying its 3 weeks others saying 12. I hope I am fully vaxed by end of June as I dont want to hang around all summer waiting for second dose. I guess everything is still in a state of flux so who knows!


It's 12 weeks fot AZ, 3 or 4 for Pfizer and Moderna, That was in a national statement a week or two ago.


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## Overandout

I met someone today who had Janssen jab last week in Madrid, certainly seesm to be gainimg pace around here, although my "forecast" date according to the calculator is 20th August.


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## Lynn R

Good to see that the vaccination campaign continues to gain pace.









Andalucía batirá esta semana su récord de vacunación, con casi 600.000 dosis


El consejero de Salud asegura que el SAS tiene capacidad para administrarlas todas




www.diariosur.es





A friend (aged 68) got his first jab on Saturday, at the mass vaccination centre in Vélez-Málaga, and was given the Pfizer vaccine, so they are obviously not giving exclusively the AZ vaccine to that age group any longer.


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## Megsmum

I met a friend out walking thus morning 68 had hers last week Pfizer also has a return appointment in three weeks


----------



## lard_ascending

Just had my first dose of Astra Zeneca in Madrid. I'm 66. Incredibly well-organised at Zendal hospital


----------



## Alcalaina

Yesterday I had a call from the Consultorio out of the blue, saying they had some spare vaccine doses (Pfizer) and did I want one. You bet! So here I am with a slightly sore arm and an appointment for the second jab in three weeks' time. Hats off to the Andalusian health service!


----------



## Megsmum

Alcalaina said:


> Yesterday I had a call from the Consultorio out of the blue, saying they had some spare vaccine doses (Pfizer) and did I want one. You bet! So here I am with a slightly sore arm and an appointment for the second jab in three weeks' time. Hats off to the Andalusian health service!


Yes you've just taken over Extremadura in % of vaccine delivered and given


----------



## Overandout

A question (not knowing or remembering the status of each poster on here):

Has anyone without access to the state health system been vaccinated yet? I know that the authorities have assured these people that they will be contacted and treated, but have they?


----------



## Megsmum

Overandout said:


> A question (not knowing or remembering the status of each poster on here):
> 
> Has anyone without access to the state health system been vaccinated yet? I know that the authorities have assured these people that they will be contacted and treated, but have they?


No, simple answer. Those that I know are not in the state system are on "lists" but are still waiting to be called, despite being in the same age group as others in the system who have been vaccinated.


----------



## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> No, simple answer. Those that I know are not in the state system are on "lists" but are still waiting to be called, despite being in the same age group as others in the system who have been vaccinated.


In my region (Valencia) they are being vaccinated along with the rest of us in the same age group, as long as they have registered for the vaccination at the local centro de salud. I personally know several who have been. 

It's at times like this that the devolved health service really shows regional differences.


----------



## Alcalaina

Overandout said:


> A question (not knowing or remembering the status of each poster on here):
> 
> Has anyone without access to the state health system been vaccinated yet? I know that the authorities have assured these people that they will be contacted and treated, but have they?


Yes - a friend of mine (who is five years younger than me) got done last week. He had to fill in a form which is available on the Junta de Andalucia Salud website. His wife was done at the same time, although she is registered with Salud. I guess they picked up from the padrón or something that they were at the same address.


----------



## Barriej

xabiaxica said:


> In my region (Valencia) they are being vaccinated along with the rest of us in the same age group, as long as they have registered for the vaccination at the local centro de salud. I personally know several who have been.
> 
> It's at times like this that the devolved health service really shows regional differences.


Not where we are, the health centre in Polop said they would get round to us 'at some point, but you must wait until locals have been done'. We are now legal locals, have TIE and on the Padron (which we showed when we registered). 
I know it wasn't the language issue, as we took someone with us to translate (the lady in reception is known to be short tempered with anyone who mis understands her) even Spanish people.
But last week they have stopped doing the vaccination at the health centre and now everyone is going to Benidorm, so I will wait and see.


----------



## Overandout

Seems like a bit of a mixed bag then. I don't know many expats in Madrid, and those I do know all work so are "in the system". 
What is the situation for other (i.e. not UK) EU pensioners? Are the Germans (as an example) in the Spanish SS with a scheme similar to the old UK S1?

The reason for my thinking is that soon, there will be calls to start to alleviate the mask wearing obligation. Not sure about where you all are, but in Madrid it seems to be a bit more realxed unofficially already, and I wondered what the impact on that relaxation program would come from people who were not vaccinated, either because medically they can't be, or because they are "outside" the system.
Sadly I guess they will effectively be ignored by some authorities.


----------



## kaipa

When I went for my vaccination there was a British woman standing next to me being told that without a SIPP number they couldn't vaccinate her. She also had no ID which they wanted to see so they presumably try some other method. if they could


----------



## xabiaxica

Overandout said:


> Seems like a bit of a mixed bag then. I don't know many expats in Madrid, and those I do know all work so are "in the system".
> What is the situation for other (i.e. not UK) EU pensioners? Are the Germans (as an example) in the Spanish SS with a scheme similar to the old UK S1?
> 
> The reason for my thinking is that soon, there will be calls to start to alleviate the mask wearing obligation. Not sure about where you all are, but in Madrid it seems to be a bit more realxed unofficially already, and I wondered what the impact on that relaxation program would come from people who were not vaccinated, either because medically they can't be, or because they are "outside" the system.
> Sadly I guess they will effectively be ignored by some authorities.


Yes, if they are 'in the system' with S1s, they will of course be offered the vaccine. The S1 is an EU thing, not a UK thing.


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> When I went for my vaccination there was a British woman standing next to me being told that without a SIPP number they couldn't vaccinate her. She also had no ID which they wanted to see so they presumably try some other method. if they could


Those registering for the vaccine ar eissued a temporary SIP card.


----------



## Megsmum

xabiaxica said:


> Those registering for the vaccine ar eissued a temporary SIP card.


Is that a general rule of thumb or region specific???


----------



## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> Is that a general rule of thumb or region specific???


SIPs are only available in the Valencia region.


----------



## Barriej

Overandout said:


> Seems like a bit of a mixed bag then. I don't know many expats in Madrid, and those I do know all work so are "in the system".
> What is the situation for other (i.e. not UK) EU pensioners? Are the Germans (as an example) in the Spanish SS with a scheme similar to the old UK S1?
> 
> The reason for my thinking is that soon, there will be calls to start to alleviate the mask wearing obligation. Not sure about where you all are, but in Madrid it seems to be a bit more realxed unofficially already, and I wondered what the impact on that relaxation program would come from people who were not vaccinated, either because medically they can't be, or because they are "outside" the system.
> Sadly I guess they will effectively be ignored by some authorities.


With regard to the mask issue, to be honest I'm so used to it now I think I will continue to wear it. Especially in shops and where there are lots of people, if I'm going for a walk up the hill or even to the beach then I will carry one. 
I think masks will be here with us for some time, maybe even years.


----------



## Alcalaina

Barriej said:


> With regard to the mask issue, to be honest I'm so used to it now I think I will continue to wear it. Especially in shops and where there are lots of people, if I'm going for a walk up the hill or even to the beach then I will carry one.
> I think masks will be here with us for some time, maybe even years.


I agree., though it does seem crazy to have to wear them on the beach or in the campo. For a while they were only mandatory indoors and if you couldn‘t guarantee a certain distance outdoors, which would seem like a good compromise for the next few months.


----------



## Overandout

I have heard from a reliable source that Madrid police are instructed to "turn a blind eye" and not fine or take any other action against bars and restaurants which do not limit the ocuupancy as per the Covid restrictions.

I believe that this kind of laissez faire attitude to control will soon be apparent with masks, at least here in Madrid. 

So although I agree with you that the rules may well call for the masks to still be worn, I think that a gradual and informal reduction of their use is inevitable. The more respectful members of society will carry on wearing them for longer, but I confess myself that if in August and at 38º in the city they are still technically a requirement, but I am the only idiot still wearing one, I will probably join the revolting masses!


----------



## Barriej

Overandout said:


> I have heard from a reliable source that Madrid police are instructed to "turn a blind eye" and not fine or take any other action against bars and restaurants which do not limit the ocuupancy as per the Covid restrictions.
> 
> I believe that this kind of laissez faire attitude to control will soon be apparent with masks, at least here in Madrid.
> 
> So although I agree with you that the rules may well call for the masks to still be worn, I think that a gradual and informal reduction of their use is inevitable. The more respectful members of society will carry on wearing them for longer, but I confess myself that if in August and at 38º in the city they are still technically a requirement, but I am the only idiot still wearing one, I will probably join the revolting masses!


It seems from all the 'news' I have watched on Spanish TV. Madrid seems to do what it likes.

We down here in the sticks are still being stopped in the car if we are not wearing masks. The other day they were checking ITV stickers and the Policeman asked why we put our masks on only when he pulled us over. Even explaining that it was just me and the wife in the car and we live in the same house, got the response 'you should be wearing them all the time'
Our nearest bar gets a visit at 21.45 every night to ensure nobody is still drinking and they ask how far you live, to make sure you get home at 22.00 (its not just this bar either the one across the street where the Mayor drinks also gets a visit).

The local police drive around the village at 22.30 most nights (and there is no bar or restaurant here).


----------



## Megsmum

Barriej said:


> It seems from all the 'news' I have watched on Spanish TV. Madrid seems to do what it likes.
> 
> We down here in the sticks are still being stopped in the car if we are not wearing masks. The other day they were checking ITV stickers and the Policeman asked why we put our masks on only when he pulled us over. Even explaining that it was just me and the wife in the car and we live in the same house, got the response 'you should be wearing them all the time'
> Our nearest bar gets a visit at 21.45 every night to ensure nobody is still drinking and they ask how far you live, to make sure you get home at 22.00 (its not just this bar either the one across the street where the Mayor drinks also gets a visit).
> 
> The local police drive around the village at 22.30 most nights (and there is no bar or restaurant here).


Not here. We were stopped put masks on, we were asked if we lived in the same house.. so no issues. Nobody wears them in the Campo here... We have them and put them on if we pass someone but otherwise.. after all I've seen no evidence of cows or sheep passing on covid19


----------



## Isobella

Barriej said:


> With regard to the mask issue, to be honest I'm so used to it now I think I will continue to wear it. Especially in shops and where there are lots of people, if I'm going for a walk up the hill or even to the beach then I will carry one.
> I think masks will be here with us for some time, maybe even years.


I don't think I could ever get used to them, perhaps because I don;t think they are of any use. I went to vote today, inevitable queue because of spacing etc. I noticed everyone coming out whipped of their mask immediately they walked out of the door. I think there is a minority who probably go to bed in them


----------



## lard_ascending

Overandout said:


> I have heard from a reliable source that Madrid police are instructed to "turn a blind eye" and not fine or take any other action against bars and restaurants which do not limit the ocuupancy as per the Covid restrictions.
> 
> I believe that this kind of laissez faire attitude to control will soon be apparent with masks, at least here in Madrid.
> 
> So although I agree with you that the rules may well call for the masks to still be worn, I think that a gradual and informal reduction of their use is inevitable. The more respectful members of society will carry on wearing them for longer, but I confess myself that if in August and at 38º in the city they are still technically a requirement, but I am the only idiot still wearing one, I will probably join the revolting masses!


I disagree that a person who removes their mask in an empty open space is 'disrespectful'.
In that situation they serve no practical purpose.

I accept that indoors they intuitively serve a purpose. However, I fear they will be with us oudoors until next year as they provide a constant reminder to the public. The health ministry fears that relaxing the outdoor rule would confuse the public and send the wrong signal. Obviously people cannot discriminate between indoors and outdoors.

I find it very sad and depressing when I see old people walking their dog in an empty street and they are too terrified to breathe fresh air. Last week I saw a school outing in the spring countryside, all wearing masks even though they were 'socially distanced'. What a way to treat children.


----------



## kaipa

lard_ascending said:


> I disagree that a person who removes their mask in an empty open space is 'disrespectful'.
> In that situation they serve no practical purpose.
> 
> I accept that indoors they intuitively serve a purpose. However, I fear they will be with us oudoors until next year as they provide a constant reminder to the public. The health ministry fears that relaxing the outdoor rule would confuse the public and send the wrong signal. Obviously people cannot discriminate between indoors and outdoors.
> 
> I find it very sad and depressing when I see old people walking their dog in an empty street and they are too terrified to breathe fresh air. Last week I saw a school outing in the spring countryside, all wearing masks even though they were 'socially distanced'. What a way to treat children.



How do you know they are terrified? Are yo a mind reader? Maybe they wear them because they are vulnerable and wish to try and protect themselves as much as possible


----------



## lard_ascending

kaipa said:


> How do you know they are terrified? Are yo a mind reader? Maybe they wear them because they are vulnerable and wish to try and protect themselves as much as possible


I'm talking about empty open spaces. I read in a Spanish newspaper forum about an old gentlemen who said he'd had a bad chest for months and was desperate to breathe fresh air. But he was too frightened to remove his mask in any circumstance. That for me is terribly sad.


----------



## Megsmum

Isobella said:


> I don't think I could ever get used to them, perhaps because I don;t think they are of any use. I went to vote today, inevitable queue because of spacing etc. I noticed everyone coming out whipped of their mask immediately they walked out of the door. I think there is a minority who probably go to bed in them





lard_ascending said:


> I'm talking about empty open spaces. I read in a Spanish newspaper forum about an old gentlemen who said he'd had a bad chest for months and was desperate to breathe fresh air. But he was too frightened to remove his mask in any circumstance. That for me is terribly sad.


To have to wear a mask outside in the fresh air away from other people is totally stupid and not good for any ones health. Indoors , public transport etc I can see the benefits at the moment, however most people don't wear them properly , they're not fitted correctly and people fiddle with them, I'm not sure how often people change them either.
I wore then for years in the operating theatre and I can't wait to get rid of them. As we become vaccinated I can see no purpose in them unless it's personal preference. I know .people who say they will continue to wear them when traveling on public transport as they're convinced that they had less colds etc through the winter months.


----------



## Isobella

I have seen lots of people walking around with their nose hanging out of masks. I am also mesmerised watching journalists, politicians etc who keep adjusting them as they slip down below their nose. Everyone seems to be touching them all the time. They are ok until you talk and then they slip.


----------



## kaipa

I really hope that the news in the guardian isn't as big as the paper makes out. The claim that the Indian variant is emerging in clusters in parts of the UK and that it the information is being withheld from release in case it affects the various elections!


----------



## lard_ascending

kaipa said:


> I really hope that the news in the guardian isn't as big as the paper makes out. The claim that the Indian variant is emerging in clusters in parts of the UK and that it the information is being withheld from release in case it affects the various elections!


 Guardian getting its excuses in early for Labour losing Hartlepool


----------



## Megsmum

Maybe that should go in the conspiracy thread. We had the Indian variant in Extremadura. I suspect it's everywhere just like the Kent , south African etc etc. There will always be variants. I fail to understand how a variant being announced is going to deter voters from voting how they want or actually going to the polls.


----------



## kaipa

Megsmum said:


> Maybe that should go in the conspiracy thread. We had the Indian variant in Extremadura. I suspect it's everywhere just like the Kent , south African etc etc. There will always be variants. I fail to understand how a variant being announced is going to deter voters from voting how they want or actually going to the polls.


Here is the article: just because it doesn't fit your view of things doesn't make it a conspiracy theory. Read it








New concerns as Indian Covid variant clusters found across England


Exclusive: Leaked emails show Public Health England assessment of ongoing risk from B16172 variant is ‘high’




www.theguardian.com


----------



## blondebob

kaipa said:


> Here is the article: just because it doesn't fit your view of things doesn't make it a conspiracy theory. Read it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New concerns as Indian Covid variant clusters found across England
> 
> 
> Exclusive: Leaked emails show Public Health England assessment of ongoing risk from B16172 variant is ‘high’
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theguardian.com


Hopefully not a precursor to more restrictions instead of the easing of......didn't like the sound of "_It highlights the fundamental weakness of the red list travel system in that we just don’t know where the next dangerous variant is coming from. This should prompt a complete overhaul of our travel policy for the summe_r.”


----------



## Isobella

kaipa said:


> I really hope that the news in the guardian isn't as big as the paper makes out. The claim that the Indian variant is emerging in clusters in parts of the UK and that it the information is being withheld from release in case it affects the various elections!


Why would it affect the elections. Are people going to change allegiances because another B version is around ffs.


----------



## kaipa

Isobella said:


> Why would it affect the elections. Are people going to change allegiances because another B version is around ffs.


No idea. I didnt write the article. Read it


----------



## Chopera

Barriej said:


> It seems from all the 'news' I have watched on Spanish TV. Madrid seems to do what it likes.
> 
> We down here in the sticks are still being stopped in the car if we are not wearing masks. The other day they were checking ITV stickers and the Policeman asked why we put our masks on only when he pulled us over. Even explaining that it was just me and the wife in the car and we live in the same house, got the response 'you should be wearing them all the time'
> Our nearest bar gets a visit at 21.45 every night to ensure nobody is still drinking and they ask how far you live, to make sure you get home at 22.00 (its not just this bar either the one across the street where the Mayor drinks also gets a visit).
> 
> The local police drive around the village at 22.30 most nights (and there is no bar or restaurant here).


Everybody I see in the streets in Madrid is wearing a mask, and the police have been everywhere in my barrio since we've been prohibited from leaving it for a month now. A friend of mine has just come back from spending several weeks in Lisbon and he estimated only about 30% of the people there wore masks outside. Also the bars in our area close at curfew time. Even f the police are turning a blind eye, nobody seems to be risking it. 

I've noticed plenty of bars have been allowed to extend their terrazas into the street by taking up a few parking spaces, so they can increase capacity. OK it means less parking, but maybe it's not needed with so many people working from home. I guess it compensates for them having to close early.

Overall I get the impression the Spànish have adhered to the rules, so I think they need to be congratulated.


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> No idea. I didnt write the article. Read it


You posted it surely you have an opinion?


----------



## Overandout

Chopera said:


> Everybody I see in the streets in Madrid is wearing a mask, and the police have been everywhere in my barrio since we've been prohibited from leaving it for a month now. A friend of mine has just come back from spending several weeks in Lisbon and he estimated only about 30% of the people there wore masks outside. Also the bars in our area close at curfew time. Even f the police are turning a blind eye, nobody seems to be risking it.
> 
> I've noticed plenty of bars have been allowed to extend their terrazas into the street by taking up a few parking spaces, so they can increase capacity. OK it means less parking, but maybe it's not needed with so many people working from home. I guess it compensates for them having to close early.
> 
> Overall I get the impression the Spànish have adhered to the rules, so I think they need to be congratulated.


I have the doubtful privilege of working in barrio Salamanca and I can assure you that you don't have to look hard to see someone without a mask, or maybe just wearing it "symbolically". Most have a good "excuse" though, talking on the phone or smoking. Yesterday I saw a guy park his car in the street, get out and walk about 300m before reaching into his pocket to get his mask. It is a minority and a small one at that, but the sensation is one of just doing the minimum to more or less comply. The police are happy with that and think that this trend will continue and expand until very few people wear one outdoors.
In Casa de Campo however nobody wears a mask! They are all doing sport of course!


----------



## jimenato

Isobella said:


> Why would it affect the elections. Are people going to change allegiances because another B version is around ffs.


I guess the thinking was that the Tories are living off feelgood vibes - vaccine rollout, good infection figures, favourable BOE forecast - that sort of thing - and a negative COVID story which threatens recovery/loosening of lockdown might adversely affect that. 

Bit unlikely IMO but who knows how electors think.


----------



## Relyat

I can't wait to get rid of the b****y thing.


----------



## Isobella

jimenato said:


> I guess the thinking was that the Tories are living off feelgood vibes - vaccine rollout, good infection figures, favourable BOE forecast - that sort of thing - and a negative COVID story which threatens recovery/loosening of lockdown might adversely affect that.
> 
> Bit unlikely IMO but who knows how electors think.


I think the electorate think that Starmer is wooden, doesn't have policies and is out of touch with average working people. Boris is rubbish too but yes the vaccination has gone well and he does have a few good people in the Cabinet.


----------



## blondebob

Isobella said:


> I think the electorate think that Starmer is wooden, doesn't have policies and is out of touch with average working people. Boris is rubbish too but yes the vaccination has gone well and *he does have a few good people in the Cabinet.*


Well it's about time he unlocked it and let them out 😅


----------



## kaipa

Indian Covid variant is ‘of concern’, says Public Health England


Figures show cases of B.1.617.2 on the rise, with scientists worried it may be more transmissible




www.theguardian.com





So following this story about the Indian variant being detected in UK , the worrying fact is that it has been detected in an old folks home where the resident are all assumed to vaccinated. If that is true it could mean that the vaccine is not suppressing transmission which in turn means the variant will need to be controlled unless we want to increase the chances of a stronger one developing. The implications are really depressing and I just hope its overcautious worry!!


----------



## Megsmum

Yes I read that but I also read further 
14 residents who where elderly got covid after the vaccine all survived, then the vaccine did its job. How many of the 14 would have died if they hadn’t had the vaccine. This is why everyone who can have the vaccine must have it Also they'd only just had their second dose so not total full immunity - people do forget that vaccines are not a cure don’t they , they are there to stop you getting poorly. If they can do that in vulnerable elderly who are the main fatalities unfortunately in this virus then that’s good enough for me


----------



## kaipa

The fact that it has now been designated a variant of concern shows that this is not a bit of tittle tattle . I suppose we will see within the next week how fast it grows and how it is transmitting. If it is a major problem I imagine that international travel will be the first to get locked down which is going to be a real bummer for all of us.


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> The fact that it has now been designated a variant of concern shows that this is not a bit of tittle tattle . I suppose we will see within the next week how fast it grows and how it is transmitting. If it is a major problem I imagine that international travel will be the first to get locked down which is going to be a real bummer for all of us.


Who mentioned tittle tattle??☺. The Kent, south African and Brazilian variants were all designated a variant of concern.
Why don't we just wait to see what the science says rather than the guardian, telegraph or Mary on Facebook. We've had it here in Extremadura... All viruses have variants and so far,as I explained, they've all been curtailed from killing people by the vaccines. It's not about stopping variants or the original virus it's about stopping healthcare primary and tiertary from being overwhelmed.
I'm cautiously optimistic that with cautious opening of borders, a vaccination programme which continues to accelerate, that we will start to live with this dreadful situation. As I say, I'm just very happy that nobody in that home died. Something surely we should be grateful for.


----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## Lynn R

Things are moving along, a friend aged 55 has an appointment to get her first jab on Wednesday. At this rate it seems as though the over 50s will have had the first dose by the end of this month.









Sánchez: "Estamos a 100 días en España de lograr la inmunidad de grupo"


El presidente del Gobierno estima que para agosto estará vacunada el 70 por ciento de la población. Andalucía baraja volver al toque de queda para combatir el cóctel "explosivo" de jóvenes y alcohol




www.malagahoy.es


----------



## Alcalaina

Lynn R said:


> Things are moving along, a friend aged 55 has an appointment to get her first jab on Wednesday. At this rate it seems as though the over 50s will have had the first dose by the end of this month.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sánchez: "Estamos a 100 días en España de lograr la inmunidad de grupo"
> 
> 
> El presidente del Gobierno estima que para agosto estará vacunada el 70 por ciento de la población. Andalucía baraja volver al toque de queda para combatir el cóctel "explosivo" de jóvenes y alcohol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.malagahoy.es


It does seem to vary from place to place, even in the same region. In our town they are currently doing 65 to 70- year-olds. But yes, things are definitely speeding up.


----------



## Lynn R

I am a distinctly unhappy bunny today - texts have been sent out (in Andalucia certainly, don't know about other regions) to say that the second dose of the AZ vaccine will now be given 16 weeks after the first, instead of the 12 originally scheduled, so my appointment on 1st July is cancelled and I have to wait for a new date. I wish now I had refused the AZ one and I might now have been able to have a Pfizer or Moderna one as friends both a few years older and younger than I have had.


----------



## Megsmum

Not heard that here. However yesterday, SES Extremadura gave AZ to a group of teachers, numbers not disclosed, despite being under 60! 
Have they said why, is it a supply issue. It's happened in the UK.mm


----------



## kaipa

I thought they were deliberating as to whether mix the vaccines now and I think they are going to decide soon. The issue seems to centre on the under 60s who were key workers and got AZ a month or two ago. They are talking about maybe giving them a different second dose vaccine. It is a pain for the 60 -70 age group as they look to be the last adult group to be fully vaccinated!


----------



## Lynn R

It seems to be because they are awaiting the results of the study being carried out about whether it is safe to give a second dose of a different vaccine to those people who received a first dose of AZ. There is lots in the news which says this 16-week thing only applies to those under 60 who received a first dose of AZ, but then again lots of people over 60 are reporting that they have received the same text message as I did (I am 64, and the message refers to "su segunda dosis" which I take to mean me personally), so why have they sent us the message? It is an absolute mess.


----------



## Lynn R

kaipa said:


> I thought they were deliberating as to whether mix the vaccines now and I think they are going to decide soon. The issue seems to centre on the under 60s who were key workers and got AZ a month or two ago. They are talking about maybe giving them a different second dose vaccine. It is a pain for the 60 -70 age group as they look to be the last adult group to be fully vaccinated!


Not all of them - I know people in their 60s who have had their first doses with the Pfizer vaccine, which is why I am p···ed off.


----------



## Megsmum

Lynn R said:


> It seems to be because they are awaiting the results of the study being carried out about whether it is safe to give a second dose of a different vaccine to those people who received a first dose of AZ. There is lots in the news which says this 16-week thing only applies to those under 60 who received a first dose of AZ, but then again lots of people over 60 are reporting that they have received the same text message as I did (I am 64, and the message refers to "su segunda dosis" which I take to mean me personally), so why have they sent us the message? It is an absolute mess.


Not good. And people need clarity especially when we are very much in a trial phase of these vaccines. I know of people in both France and the UK who are being offered either Pfizer or moderna as a second jab. But as you say under 60s Husband due his second AZ next Month and not heard anything Yet about changes etc .
I'm due second moderna (4 week gap) on the 26tj of this month but I have cancer follow up scan and because vaccines cause lymph node swelling my GP is trying to get the vaccine date moved after the scan.. I should know next week.

Yes we know lots who have had Pfizer or moderna over 60


----------



## Overandout

I'm not convinced that delaying the second dose is that big a deal. Doesn't seem to have done much harm to the UK program. That said I can understand the frustration.

News starting to give more optimistic forecasts of vaccinations though. My own forecast has been brought forward from end August to end July!


----------



## Lynn R

Overandout said:


> I'm not convinced that delaying the second dose is that big a deal. Doesn't seem to have done much harm to the UK program. That said I can understand the frustration.
> 
> News starting to give more optimistic forecasts of vaccinations though. My own forecast has been brought forward from end August to end July!


You're getting the appointments freed up by postponing the AZ second doses, you dirty rotten swine!  

It may not be a big deal effectiveness wise, but if there's one thing I can't stand it's being messed around, being told one thing one minute and another the next. Nor being treated differently to others in the same age cohort, which just does not seem fair.


----------



## kaipa

Interview on radio 4 with an epidemiologist who was saying that this is a good case for trying to deliver second doses to as many as possible now as they are getting very worried by the Indian Variant and its possible speed of contamination in parts of UK. He was also saying that one of the main factors for the explosion of new variants last year was caused specifically by travel to Spain and was warning about the dangers of travel especially with the Indian Variant being a worry for other countries. Time will tell I guess.


----------



## lard_ascending

This morning's news

CORONAVIRUS EN ESPAÑA | VACUNACIÓN | El Ministerio de Sanidad amplió el intervalo de tiempo entre la primera y la segunda dosis de 12 a 16 semanas para los menores de 60 años que habían recibido la primera de AstraZeneca. Para los de más de 60 años se mantiene la pauta marcada por la farmacéutica.

So, no change for the over 60s... 10-12 weeks


----------



## Lynn R

lard_ascending said:


> This morning's news
> 
> CORONAVIRUS EN ESPAÑA | VACUNACIÓN | El Ministerio de Sanidad amplió el intervalo de tiempo entre la primera y la segunda dosis de 12 a 16 semanas para los menores de 60 años que habían recibido la primera de AstraZeneca. Para los de más de 60 años se mantiene la pauta marcada por la farmacéutica.
> 
> So, no change for the over 60s... 10-12 weeks


But many over 60s, includiing me, got a text message yesterday saying "your second dose will now be given a minimum of 16 weeks after the first"


----------



## lard_ascending

Lynn R said:


> But many over 60s, includiing me, got a text message yesterday saying "your second dose will now be given a minimum of 16 weeks after the first"


That was yesterday. This government changes its strategy from day to day.


----------



## kaipa

India variant could lead to serious third wave of Covid in UK


Analysis: If B.1.617.2 proves highly transmissible, hospitalisations could peak again, models show




www.theguardian.com





This makes very worrying reading. According to this the models suggest that if the Indian Variant is just 40 % more transmissable than the normal variant then there would be 6,000 hospital admissions a day with many being already vaccinated persons!. If 50% then 10 000 a day. This is far worse than the 2nd wave. And the only way to prevent this is to not ease restrictions this Monday. There was an epidemiologist on radio 4 saying the same thing.


----------



## Megsmum

Deleted I can't cope with the doom sorry. Carry on


----------



## Isobella

Megsmum said:


> Deleted I can't cope with the doom sorry. Carry on


Don’t worry Boris sounded fairly positive. SAGE and the experts have been consistently wrong. Some seem to delight in spreading doom and gloom for the UK.


----------



## Megsmum

Isobella said:


> Don’t worry Boris sounded fairly positive. SAGE and the experts have been consistently wrong. Some seem to delight in spreading doom and gloom for the UK.


no I’m not worried, variants are here for ever, if cases rise they rise, nowt we can do, except carry on with the vaccination programme here and everywhere, I repeat myself it’s here to stay and we have to learn to live with it. As you say some people revel in the negatives rather than the positives and not just for the U.K..

What came out of that conference for me was simple. There are communities who are refusing the vaccine... those areas have been in lockdown for nearly a year now, clearly that’s not working, ergo, that community is not playing its part in reducing the virus. Not sure what the answer is... 

also the phrase “living with it” probably means different things to different people ... for some its clear a perpetual state of border closures and lockdowns for others it’s a free for all, for the enlightened 😆 it’s a balance of opening up cautiously, people making thier own choices to see family, childeen playing like children, families eating together and businesses getting back to normal. All of which we can do once the majority have had vaccines. If people refuse then the doom and gloom brigade will be thrilled as they Say told you so!


----------



## lard_ascending

Today's news
El alcalde de la localidad cordobesa de Castro del Río, Salvador Millán, ha pedido a los vecinos "evitar las salidas innecesarias y las reuniones familiares, más allá del círculo habitual de convivencia", todo ello al superar de nuevo este viernes la* tasa de mil casos por cada 100.000 habitantes *en 14 días fijada por la Junta como criterio para decretar el *cierre perimetral* y suspensión de actividad no esencial con aval judicial tras el fin del estado de alarma. 

Interesting story this. Sounds terrifying enough. But the pueblo has a population of less than 8000 so they are talking about 80 'cases' = positive tests

No information on severity of illness, ages of 'patients', vaccinations etc, which would be really interesting to know.

Never mind, it all drives the fear agenda.


----------



## blondebob

lard_ascending said:


> Today's news
> El alcalde de la localidad cordobesa de Castro del Río, Salvador Millán, ha pedido a los vecinos "evitar las salidas innecesarias y las reuniones familiares, más allá del círculo habitual de convivencia", todo ello al superar de nuevo este viernes la* tasa de mil casos por cada 100.000 habitantes *en 14 días fijada por la Junta como criterio para decretar el *cierre perimetral* y suspensión de actividad no esencial con aval judicial tras el fin del estado de alarma.
> 
> Interesting story this. Sounds terrifying enough. *But the pueblo has a population of less than 8000 so they are talking about 80 'cases' = positive tests*
> 
> No information on severity of illness, ages of 'patients', vaccinations etc, which would be really interesting to know.
> 
> Never mind, it all drives the fear agenda.


Wow, thats 1% of the inhabitants


----------



## stevec2x

For what its worth, the missus and I have just had our invites for vaccine. We are 57/8 and will have the Pfizer vaccine on Tuesday - yeah!


----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## kaipa

2nd dose administered to 15% approx


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> 2nd dose administered to 15% approx


yep - that's what the graph says!


----------



## Localizer

Had a good experience getting our vaccines in San Predro in Andalusia - registered at the Health Centre with the Junta Vaccination form last Thursday - they wanted to see our EHIC as well as Padron, TIE, Passport. At the same time they gave us both (56 & 59) an appointment for the following Wednesday - and yesterday we both duly received the Pfizer vaccine with a second dose appointment 3 weeks later....... later yesterday the vaccination record was showing in the ClicSalud app with the certificate available after the second dose has been administered.


----------



## timwip

Here in Washington DC where marijuana is legal, they have initiated an interesting program to achieve herd immunity. It is called Joints for Jabs.

https://dcmj.org/joints-for-jabs-pr...quitable distribution of the critical vaccine.


----------



## Alcalaina

timwip said:


> Here in Washington DC where marijuana is legal, they have initiated an interesting program to achieve herd immunity. It is called Joints for Jabs.
> 
> https://dcmj.org/joints-for-jabs-press-release/#:~:text=Dubbed “ Joints for Jabs,” a play on,advocating for equitable distribution of the critical vaccine.


No more excuses for not passing it on!


----------



## Chopera

I'm gettng my second moderna jab tomorrow and our barrio is being released from confinement on Monday (after 6 or 7 weeks) Our cases per 100,000 has been below 400 for a few weeks now, but for some reason nobody can work out they kept it restricted. Nice little earner for the police I guess.


----------



## jeff9

Hi, I have private healthcare and just moved to Marbella in late March. I signed up with Junta de Andalucia public health just for vaccine. I see today they say in Andalucia vaccination (according to Sur from yesterday) for 52-53 now and 50-51 next week. I'm 55 and never was contacted. Any suggestions? Thanks


----------



## Alcalaina

jeff9 said:


> Hi, I have private healthcare and just moved to Marbella in late March. I signed up with Junta de Andalucia public health just for vaccine. I see today they say in Andalucia vaccination (according to Sur from yesterday) for 52-53 now and 50-51 next week. I'm 55 and never was contacted. Any suggestions? Thanks


It varies from town to town, my husband is 66 and is still waiting for his first one. Something to do with supplies I think. Go to your local Consultorio and ask, or ring the number on their website.



> Actualmente las personas nacidas entre 1962 y 1969 (de 52 a 59 años), así como las que tienen 68 años o más (nacidas en 1953 y años anteriores), pueden solicitar cita para la primera dosis de la vacunación COVID-19 a través de ClicSalud+, la App Salud Responde y el teléfono 955 54 50 60 de Salud Responde.











Vacunación COVID-19







www.sspa.juntadeandalucia.es


----------



## jeff9

Alcalaina said:


> It varies from town to town, my husband is 66 and is still waiting for his first one. Something to do with supplies I think. Go to your local Consultorio and ask, or ring the number on their website.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vacunación COVID-19
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sspa.juntadeandalucia.es


Hi Alcalaina, Thanks as I was just wondering maybe I didn't complete something else. It sounds like that is only for small groups to be called yet in 50-59 years. That is strange your husband is still waiting. I will wait a few weeks as I'm not really worried about it just know need it to travel in the future.


----------



## kaipa

jeff9 said:


> Hi Alcalaina, Thanks as I was just wondering maybe I didn't complete something else. It sounds like that is only for small groups to be called yet in 50-59 years. That is strange your husband is still waiting. I will wait a few weeks as I'm not really worried about it just know need it to travel in the future.


Make sure you provided them with a Spanish phone number as they sometimes phone not always a SMS.


----------



## jeff9

kaipa said:


> Make sure you provided them with a Spanish phone number as they sometimes phone not always a SMS.


Yes, I gave them my phone number here in Spain. Thanks as that is good to know too.


----------



## kalohi

jeff9 said:


> Hi, I have private healthcare and just moved to Marbella in late March. I signed up with Junta de Andalucia public health just for vaccine. I see today they say in Andalucia vaccination (according to Sur from yesterday) for 52-53 now and 50-51 next week. I'm 55 and never was contacted. Any suggestions? Thanks


In Andalucia for this age group they aren't sending vaccine appointments (for the most part). You have to phone and make the appointment yourself once your age group is eligible. Ring 955 54 50 60 . Or you can ask at the health center where you're registered. If you're in the system you can also make the appointment yourself on the clicsalud+ website or app, or the saludresponde app.


----------



## jeff9

kalohi said:


> In Andalucia for this age group they aren't sending vaccine appointments (for the most part). You have to phone and make the appointment yourself once your age group is eligible. Ring 955 54 50 60 . Or you can ask at the health center where you're registered. If you're in the system you can also make the appointment yourself on the clicsalud+ website or app, or the saludresponde app.


Hi Kalohi, thanks for the information as I thought they were sending SMS or calling all age groups.


----------



## jeff9

Hi, thank you all for your help as that was the expectation is I would go to website or call them. I went in to website and entered the data and appointment is setup for Monday now.


----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## Overandout

A friend of mine who is 50 will be vaccinated tomorrow in Madrid!
Edging ever closer to the 40-somethings!


----------



## xabiaxica

Overandout said:


> A friend of mine who is 50 will be vaccinated tomorrow in Madrid!
> Edging ever closer to the 40-somethings!


Yes, lots of 50s who I know have been or are about to be vaccinated, too, in the Valencia region, & I saw on the news that 40s are now being done in several regions.


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> I thought UK was stopping second vaccination.


Not sure where that information comes from. My daughter and son in law (34 &36) get their second on Wednesday. Everyone in my family UK based have had two jabs

My second was cancelled last week as I had a CT scan the following day. Hospital phoned this morning. Second dose on Wednesday moderna


----------



## Megsmum

Overandout said:


> A friend of mine who is 50 will be vaccinated tomorrow in Madrid!
> Edging ever closer to the 40-somethings!


Here too... My jefa y marido next week... Late 40s


----------



## Yeggydegz

Megsmum said:


> Not sure where that information comes from. My daughter and son in law (34 &36) get their second on Wednesday. Everyone in my family UK based have had two jabs
> 
> My second was cancelled last week as I had a CT scan the following day. Hospital phoned this morning. Second dose on Wednesday moderna


How come your daughter an son in law are getting vaccinated early? are they in a hotspot? my brother had his second brought forward but he is over 50. 
I'm late 40s but don't have 2nd jab till early july.


----------



## Megsmum

Yeggydegz said:


> How come your daughter an son in law are getting vaccinated early? are they in a hotspot? my brother had his second brought forward but he is over 50.
> I'm late 40s but don't have 2nd jab till early july.


Nope. Live near Chichester...other daughter lives in Nottingham Nottinghamshire second jab July ,2nd all unde 39.
They are not getting vaccinated early they're getting vaccinated when they're called in. No medical conditions etc. Only my son in law who is a chef was called due to his job , he volunteered during furlough to work in a nursing home preparing food and feeding residents. He was offered a vaccine back in February.
Many regions are also doing over 18s now.

Edited
Daughters friends in East Sussex in thirties all had first vaccine, she says everyone she knows in her age bracket had had at least one. Like many things post code lottery


----------



## timwip

Later this week, I return to Spain after an extended stay in the United States getting vaccinated and visiting the kids. I am glad I came to get the Pfizer. I was offered the Astra-Zeneca in Spain but turned it down before I Ieft to come here. Thinking things through, EU will recognize anybody as vaccinated that has an EU-approved vaccine. As a result, I am good in the EU with the Pfizer. The AZ is not approved in the United States and will likely not get approval. As a result, perhaps down the road, the US will not recognize my AZ vaccination. This would potentially limit travel.

They are now vaccinating anyone over 12 with Pfizer. My 13 year old nephew got his first jab a couple of weeks ago.
Health departments have signs on the highway offering the one jab Johnson and Johnson at rest stops. Here there is no reason other than stupidity to not have been vaccinated.


----------



## susanna temple

Megsmum said:


> Sorry not sure where to pos. For obvious reasons we are desperate for daughters and grandchildren to visit, and whilst the U.K. appears to be forging ahead with thier vaccination program,I’m struggling to find regional statistics for Spain, mainly because I’m very tired and can’t function properly. Any easy links would be greatly appreciated as would not knocking the EU etc just simple facts
> 
> thank you in advance


I am not sure how to do this and maybe it is a new thread, but here goes.
Has anyone else had problems getting vaccinated?
I am a permanent resident, but have not been contacted for an appointment. I am 70. Through a friend we found out an email address to write to. I was asked to send a copy of my DNIE and Padrón which I did. I was told I would be contacted by my local vaccination centre but couldn't say when. This was over 3 weeks ago. I am beginning to suspect an anti British sentiment in the allocation of a vaccine to me. Has anyone else had this problem?


----------



## kaipa

susanna temple said:


> I am not sure how to do this and maybe it is a new thread, but here goes.
> Has anyone else had problems getting vaccinated?
> I am a permanent resident, but have not been contacted for an appointment. I am 70. Through a friend we found out an email address to write to. I was asked to send a copy of my DNIE and Padrón which I did. I was told I would be contacted by my local vaccination centre but couldn't say when. This was over 3 weeks ago. I am beginning to suspect an anti British sentiment in the allocation of a vaccine to me. Has anyone else had this problem?


I really dont think there is any anti-British sentiment involved and to be honest it's only the likes of the Express, Sun etc that promulgate this nonsense. If you are over 70 and from UK and resident in Spain you should be on the public system if you registered with your S1. However it sounds like you are not so you must have private healthcare. If this is the case you need to go to your local health centre with your documents proving residency and they will give you a temporary registration for vaccination. If you dont speak Spanish take someone to translate it saves time, it is polite and it avoids the paranoia that people are discriminating.


----------



## Alcalaina

Go to your local health centre, make sure they have your contact number and ask when you can expect to receive an appointment. They are keen to vaccinate as many people as possible, especially the older ones. There is no discrimination by nationality.


----------



## xabiaxica

susanna temple said:


> I am not sure how to do this and maybe it is a new thread, but here goes.
> Has anyone else had problems getting vaccinated?
> I am a permanent resident, but have not been contacted for an appointment. I am 70. Through a friend we found out an email address to write to. I was asked to send a copy of my DNIE and Padrón which I did. I was told I would be contacted by my local vaccination centre but couldn't say when. This was over 3 weeks ago. I am beginning to suspect an anti British sentiment in the allocation of a vaccine to me. Has anyone else had this problem?


Some people of various nationalities in some regions have had problems if they aren't in the health system, but with private healthcare - but that seems to be getting sorted out now.


You say that you're 70? Are you not registered at the local centro de salud for your healthcare anyway?

As Alcalaina says, the govt wants to vaccinate everyone regardless of their nationality or legal residency status in Spain.


----------



## jeff9

I agree they are not discriminating at all as I'm American and just moved here in March. I'm only 55 and I signed up at local health center and had first Pfizer vaccine on Monday this week and second shot scheduled while I was there for June 21st. I have private insurance too.


----------



## Italia-Mx

Picky said:


> The U.K. apear to be doing a good job looking at the news. Vaccination must be priority one if the world is going to end the lockdown / open up / lockdown again vicious cycling. Unless Spain goes up a few gears with its vaccination program, then we will still be locking down in another 12+ months time. It’s not looking promising for Spain or the EU currently, it would appear the failure to early purchase vaccines by the EU, coupled with Spanish delays to roll out what they have got are the causes of the issue?
> Assuming it’s possible to get to the U.K. does anyone know if expats can get a vaccination in the U.K.


Probably the EU did not early purchase enough vaccine because many of it's health authorities don't believe the science and it's entirely possible that they're right because no-one at this point knows how effective any of these vaccines really are. The fact that cases are slowing down could just be the natural characteristic of the virus. How many viruses have we seen in the past that did not require a vaccine?


----------



## Italia-Mx

kaipa said:


> One thing to remember is that the UK is only giving one dose of the vaccine which of course allows the government to boast of having inoculated larger numbers in a short time. Spain has lower numbers because it has to organise a system to deliver it twice. The question is what will happen in UK if they find that by March the first set of extremely vulnerable persons start to lose immunity?. Britain could then actually find themselves in a horrific situation! The Tories are taking a huge gamble.


What will happen in UK if they find by March that the first set of "vulnerable" (really meaning elderly) persons start to lose immunity? This is very interesting because since no one knows for certain how effective this vaccine is for anyone, it could also mean that they didn't lose the "immunity" they never had to begin with but they did eventually become gravely ill as a result of having taken the first shot, which many people propose is the exact intention of the "vaccine" and the reason many elderly people, particularly, are not interested in starting the clock on their own demise.


----------



## Isobella

Italia-Mx said:


> What will happen in UK if they find by March that the first set of "vulnerable" (really meaning elderly) persons start to lose immunity? This is very interesting because since no one knows for certain how effective this vaccine is for anyone, it could also mean that they didn't lose the "immunity" they never had to begin with but they did eventually become gravely ill as a result of having taken the first shot, which many people propose is the exact intention of the "vaccine" and the reason many elderly people, particularly, are not interested in starting the clock on their own demise.


Your information is out of date. High number have received 2 doses, time has been cut to 8 weeks or less in UK. A notice today in W. Sussex advertising an extra 1050 appointments tomorrow for over 18s.

From Our World in Data · Last updated: 2 days ago
United Kingdom

Doses givenFully vaccinated% of population fully vaccinated65.7M
65,700,00026.1M
26,100,00039.1%
39.1%
Worldwide

Doses givenFully vaccinated% of population fully vaccinated2.02B
2,020,000,000
+35.7M
+35,700,000443M
443,000,000
+4.03M
+4,030,0005.7%
5.7%
+0.1%
+0.1%
https://google.com/covid19-map/?hl=en-GB&mid=/m/07ssc&state=7


----------



## xabiaxica

Let's get back on topic...


----------



## jimenato

Italia-Mx said:


> What will happen in UK if they find by March that the first set of "vulnerable" (really meaning elderly) persons start to lose immunity? This is very interesting because since no one knows for certain how effective this vaccine is for anyone, it could also mean that they didn't lose the "immunity" they never had to begin with but they did eventually become gravely ill as a result of having taken the first shot, which many people propose is the exact intention of the "vaccine" and the reason many elderly people, particularly, are not interested in starting the clock on their own demise.


Not quite sure why you mention the UK - the subject is surely relevant to anywhere.

Anyway - the UK is going to give boosters this autumn.

Maybe more suitable for this thread ?


----------



## Beach buddy

I have just read that Andalucia will be the first area with the COVID Passport. All those over 65 will receive, by post, their passports. All others with have to obtain it from the Salud Andalucia app. Well done them


----------



## Alcalaina

Beach buddy said:


> I have just read that Andalucia will be the first area with the COVID Passport. All those over 65 will receive, by post, their passports. All others with have to obtain it from the Salud Andalucia app. Well done them


Got mine already!


----------



## kaipa

Meanwhile those of us who are 60 but have children are going to be severely discriminated against. 16 weeks before 2nd dose and kids no vax yet. So not much hope of visiting elderly grandparents this summer and maybe have to wait til Christmas which will be two years since last travel. Still it's the young who now have sacrificed the most.


----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## kaipa

My son's school has a large outbreak of Covid. It is connected to the nightclub in Torrevieja which ,unbelievably had a big end of term party. 50 odd people have officially been tested positive but my students have said lots of people are not admitting they were there as they dont want to be quarantined. It just shows how active it is and how dangerous these large discos are.


----------



## Overandout

Just got my vaccine. Considering that I was first forecast to be vaccinated at end August I think they've caught up quite well. I got the J&J single dose jab so that's me done (until the variant top ups become necessary...)

Was nice to see the Wanda Metroplitano, hadn't been there before. The grass looks in poor condition though!


----------



## tardigrade

I actually received an sms on may 29 for 1st shot appointment on June 2 and 2nd on June 30th. I missed the sms. Did not see it as it came in at 3:29am so probably got marked as read or cleared from the home screen upon waking up.

Called yesterday after seeing it for the first time and was told to be on the lookout Monday morning for another...

I wish I had a choice as I would choose the JnJ over the moderna...


----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## Megsmum

I'm fully vaccinated, had to delay devine by four days due to having to have a scan . Husband is having jab two on Friday. 
I'm surprised there is so much chatter about the UK on this thread. I thought we lived in Spain!!!


----------



## tardigrade

Just received the sms for June 23.. Janssen.. Always my first choice..

I was dis made when they announced it for the 40-49 age range - 51 here.. Guess they have extra doses..


----------



## kaipa

If current data is right then the AZ vaccine which has been used on the elderly in Spain might only offer 60% effectiveness against the Delta variant, then doesn't that mean that quite a large number of people will possibly become infected when the variant starts to take off in Spain?


----------



## Lynn R

kaipa said:


> If current data is right then the AZ vaccine which has been used on the elderly in Spain might only offer 60% effectiveness against the Delta variant, then doesn't that mean that quite a large number of people will possibly become infected when the variant starts to take off in Spain?


The AZ vaccine wasn't used on those 70 and over in Spain, only on some of those aged 60-69 (some of those were given Pfizer, Moderna or Janssen) and essential workers under 60.


----------



## kaipa

Lynn R said:


> The AZ vaccine wasn't used on those 70 and over in Spain, only on some of those aged 60-69 (some of those were given Pfizer, Moderna or Janssen) and essential workers under 60.


 Ahh.. I though it was used on all over 60 but not under 60. My mistake. The other vaccines are much more effective.


----------



## blondebob

kaipa said:


> Ahh.. I though it was used on all over 60 but not under 60. My mistake. *The other vaccines are much more effective.*


At what though


----------



## kaipa

blondebob said:


> At what though


 At preventing the Delta variant infecting you so as you become ill


----------



## blondebob

kaipa said:


> At preventing the Delta variant infecting you so as you become ill


So if they do as you say what exactly is your problem with allowing vaccinated people from travelling? Or is it just AZ vaccinated people that you think shouldn't be allowed to travel?


----------



## Isobella

kaipa said:


> If current data is right then the AZ vaccine which has been used on the elderly in Spain might only offer 60% effectiveness against the Delta variant, then doesn't that mean that quite a large number of people will possibly become infected when the variant starts to take off in Spain?


Not what I have read...where is the link.


----------



## kaipa

Because apparently you can still be infected and not actually ill so that means you could be a carrier which means capable of spreading virus and as international travel appears to the most obvious way that different variants can cross borders then allowing unchecked travellers could undermine the vaccine program.


----------



## Isobella

*Pfizer/BioNTech, AZ vaccines effective against Delta COVID-19 variant after two doses*
*Pfizer/BioNTech and AZ vaccines found to be 96% and 92% effective against variant, respectively*








*New real-world study data from Public Health England (PHE) has demonstrated that two doses of either Pfizer/BioNTech or AstraZeneca’s (AZ) COVID-19 vaccines are ‘highly’ effective against the Delta variant (previously known as the Indian variant).*

The study included 14,019 individuals in England who had tested positive for the Delta variant, of which 166 were hospitalised between 12 April and 4 June.

According to the data, the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine was 96% effective against hospitalisation or death caused by the Delta variant following two doses.
The AZ vaccine was 92% effective against hospitalisation or death from the Delta variant after two doses.


----------



## kaipa

According to figures gathered by Public Health Scotland and published in the Lancet, at least two weeks after the second dose of Covid jabs, protection against infection fell from 92% for the Alpha variant to 79% against the Delta variant for the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine, while for the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine the protection fell from 73% to 60% respectively.





__





DEFINE_ME






www.thelancet.com


----------



## lard_ascending

Isobella beat me to it.


----------



## blondebob




----------



## woodpecker9

How are illegal non residents, including 1,000s of British still living under the radar receiving COVID 19 vaccinations?


----------



## xabiaxica

woodpecker9 said:


> How are illegal non residents, including 1,000s of British still living under the radar receiving COVID 19 vaccinations?


It means popping their heads above the parapet, but they can register for the vaccine at the local centro de salud

Some insist on seeing proof of health insurance, but others seem to accept padrón & NIE, or even EHIC.


----------



## Barriej

woodpecker9 said:


> How are illegal non residents, including 1,000s of British still living under the radar receiving COVID 19 vaccinations?


They wont be. I assume most will be more concerned with the knock at the door to remove them back to Blighty   

Im a legal resident (have my TIE) and have visited the local doctors to 'sign on' for a temp card as we have private medical still.
We were told both in Spanish (took a translator who is well known at the clinic) and in English by the Doctor walking past.

'we will put you on the list but you will have to wait for everyone else first'

We said thank you and we will wait for our calls.

The lady in the reception speaks English when she wants to and mumbled something about people abusing the Spanish system and we should go home for the jab. 
Our translator wanted to say something but I stopped her. She reckons the receptionist is rude to every foreigner who goes in there, even those with good Spanish.
Which when you consider there is just over 5000 population in the town and about 32% non Spanish, she must be rude a fair amount of the time


----------



## Isobella

If they are mixing with the population it is in Spain’s interest to vaccinate regardless. That is why Gibraltar vaccinated all the workers coming in from La Linea. 
on Tv news today they were interviewing young people in London queuing for the mass 18+ jabs. Nearly everyone if them in the queue was foreign.


----------



## blondebob

Judging by the pics I've seen in the media regarding London 18+ mass jabbing the take up doesn't seem that great, quite the opposite in fact


----------



## Isobella

blondebob said:


> Judging by the pics I've seen in the media regarding London 18+ mass jabbing the take up doesn't seem that great, quite the opposite in fact


Seemed very busy shown on the news channels although I wouldn’t have been bothered at their age. Perhaps they are hedging their bets incase the EU passport becomes the norm or they want to go to a pop festival.


----------



## woodpecker9

xabiaxica said:


> It means popping their heads above the parapet, but they can register for the vaccine at the local centro de salud
> 
> Some insist on seeing proof of health insurance, but others seem to accept padrón & NIE, or even EHIC.


This appears to be a serious issue for Spain and many other countries. How is COVID 19 ever going to be eliminated if illegal’s are not vaccinated? A real dilemma for the government, admit they have illegal’s and work out a vaccine immunity plan or bury their heads in the sand and let COVID 19 exist forever.

I don’t see what health insurance has to do with COVID, you cannot get a vaccination privately, is this just another nonsense made up by the bureaucrats. Padrons are normally only issued to residents (but that depends on the day of the week). NIE means nothing. EHIC is what it says ‘’insurance’’.

So beware British residents’ in Spain, Del Boy your pool cleaner, gardener, decorator, airport taxi and dog sitter may not be vaccinated, but of course he is cheap with your back pocket money and that is all that matters to some.


----------



## blondebob

woodpecker9 said:


> This appears to be a serious issue for Spain and many other countries. How is COVID 19 ever going to be eliminated if illegal’s are not vaccinated? A real dilemma for the government, admit they have illegal’s and work out a vaccine immunity plan or bury their heads in the sand and let COVID 19 exist forever.
> 
> I don’t see what health insurance has to do with COVID, you cannot get a vaccination privately, is this just another nonsense made up by the bureaucrats. Padrons are normally only issued to residents (but that depends on the day of the week). NIE means nothing. EHIC is what it says ‘’insurance’’.
> 
> *So beware British residents’ in Spain, Del Boy your pool cleaner, gardener, decorator, airport taxi and dog sitter may not be vaccinated, but of course he is cheap with your back pocket money and that is all that matters to some.*


Thanks for the heads up 😂😂


----------



## xabiaxica

woodpecker9 said:


> So beware British residents’ in Spain, Del Boy your pool cleaner, gardener, decorator, airport taxi and dog sitter may not be vaccinated, but of course he is cheap with your back pocket money and that is all that matters to some.


Pretty much all the Del Boys seem to have disappeared in my town! Lots have returned to the UK in the past year, but that's another story for a different thread.

The best we can do is to become vaccinated ourselves.


----------



## woodpecker9

xabiaxica said:


> Pretty much all the Del Boys seem to have disappeared in my town! Lots have returned to the UK in the past year, but that's another story for a different thread.
> 
> The best we can do is to become vaccinated ourselves.


Hello xabiaxica

That is a wise answer and good advice. I suppose illegal’s are not the priority at the moment but will eventually have to be dealt with.

I noticed you are no longer a SUPER MODERATOR have you been promoted?


----------



## xabiaxica

woodpecker9 said:


> Hello xabiaxica
> 
> That is a wise answer and good advice. I suppose illegal’s are not the priority at the moment but will eventually have to be dealt with.
> 
> I noticed you are no longer a SUPER MODERATOR have you been promoted?


Our titles were all changed when the site got its facelift.


The pay's the same, as is the voluntary job


----------



## blondebob

woodpecker9 said:


> Hello xabiaxica
> 
> That is a wise answer and good advice. I suppose illegal’s are not the priority at the moment but will eventually have to be dealt with.
> 
> I noticed you are no longer a SUPER MODERATOR have you been promoted?


What, as in rounded up and forcibly jabbed?


----------



## woodpecker9

blondebob said:


> What, as in rounded up and forcibly jabbed?


What a silly comment.


----------



## blondebob

woodpecker9 said:


> What a silly comment.


Yes agree "dealt with" was a very silly comment.


----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## Megsmum

xabiaxica said:


> View attachment 99789


Good to see some positivity x
We are now both fully vaccinated and have our certificates both on paper and digitally. Everyone I know has now been doubly Vaccinated both here and UK except 18yr old niece who had her first last Thursday


----------



## stevesainty

Just a headsup for anyone waiting for a new appointment for their 2nd AZ that was cancelled. I have received no text today but have gleaned from other fora that you need to download GVA+ app on your phone, enter your DOB, scan the barcode on your SIP, confirm sip number and any appointments are then revealed. Mine is for one day earlier than the cancelled one. Valencia region, born Jan 1956.


----------



## kaipa

stevesainty said:


> Just a headsup for anyone waiting for a new appointment for their 2nd AZ that was cancelled. I have received no text today but have gleaned from other fora that you need to download GVA+ app on your phone, enter your DOB, scan the barcode on your SIP, confirm sip number and any appointments are then revealed. Mine is for one day earlier than the cancelled one. Valencia region, born Jan 1956.


This is the Valencia healthcare app. You can use it for appointments and prescritions etc. You can get your digital certificate for vaccination here. I only have confirmation of 1st dose no date for 2nd


----------



## Megsmum

Anybody know where I can find official source for Covid cases in the balearics and canary Islands ???


----------



## tardigrade

Does anyone have any experience of accessing the GVASalut app with a paper SIP card? My phone - a recent smart one is unable to scan the barcode and at the moment I do not have a [email protected] number


----------



## stevesainty

You can access the site online too





Inici - Conselleria de Sanitat Universal i Salut Pública


Pàgina principal de la web de la Conselleria de Sanitat



www.san.gva.es


----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## xabiaxica

In my comunidad, Valencia, they have announced that they will start on the 30s at the beginning of August. Currently doing the 40s. 

My age group, 60-65 was given AstraZenica & told that we would be sent an appointment for the second in 12 weeks. I know that in some health regions the second AZ appointment was given at the same time as the first, but they didn't do that in mine (Marina Alta)

My second appointment came through last night for Monday. 11 weeks after the first jab.


----------



## tardigrade

I luckily passed on the moderna vaccine. 2 shots? Why? So was very happy when I got the sms for the J & J.

With all the news and reports about how effective this vaccine is against the new variant - delta and all the poor people with just under 30% protection waiting for their 2nd jab; I think I made the right choice.


----------



## lard_ascending

xabiaxica said:


> In my comunidad, Valencia, they have announced that they will start on the 30s at the beginning of August. Currently doing the 40s.
> 
> My age group, 60-65 was given AstraZenica & told that we would be sent an appointment for the second in 12 weeks. I know that in some health regions the second AZ appointment was given at the same time as the first, but they didn't do that in mine (Marina Alta)
> 
> My second appointment came through last night for Monday. 11 weeks after the first jab.


I'm 67 in Madrid. Just received second AZ appointment for next week. It will be 9 weeks after first so they are definitely accelerating.


----------



## Relyat

Likewise. I was given an appointment for the 20th July when I received my first vaccination. Last night I had a text to say that it's now on Monday.


----------



## kaipa

Yep last night me too. 2nd jab Monday AZ. Big push now to get the 60 70 group done as contagions in Spain are rising fast and they need all vulnerable groups complete as soon as possible


----------



## Pesky Wesky

lard_ascending said:


> I'm 67 in Madrid. Just received second AZ appointment for next week. It will be 9 weeks after first so they are definitely accelerating.


And they definitely don't go in order within the age group as I know people of 60/ 61 who got their second shot weeks ago and even people of the next age group down


----------



## Megsmum

Pesky Wesky said:


> And they definitely don't go in order within the age group as I know people of 60/ 61 who got their second shot weeks ago and even people of the next age group down


We've been vaccinating the 40-50s with Jansen. It's definitely accelerating here too


----------



## xabiaxica

Had my second jab just before 1pm yesterday. 

I uploaded my EU covid vaccination cert & printed a copy a few minutes ago.


----------



## kaipa

xabiaxica said:


> Had my second jab just before 1pm yesterday.
> 
> I uploaded my EU covid vaccination cert & printed a copy a few minutes ago.


Did you need DS or [email protected]?


----------



## kaipa

Megsmum said:


> We've been vaccinating the 40-50s with Jansen. It's definitely accelerating here too


Everyone in my area I know are posting that they received SMS Saturday night for 2nd jab this week ( 60-70 group) so good news and impressive work from the Valencia Salud!


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> Did you need DS or [email protected]?


No. I just went to the website, filled in my details. I was sent a text with an access code which I input & the cert was generated.

This is the Comunidad Valenciana



JUSTIFICANTE VACUNAL COVID-19 DE LA COMUNITAT VALENCIANA



This article has links for the other comunidades









Certificado Covid: Estas son las comunidades que lo emiten en sus tres modalidades y así puedes solicitarlo


Todavía hay tres comunidades que no lo facilitan en sus tres modalidades: La Rioja, Castilla-La Mancha y Extremadura



www.abc.es


----------



## kaipa

Perfect. I will try tomorrow


----------



## stevesainty

Maybe teaching Grandma to suck eggs here, but, once you have the PDF cert on your phone you can create a desktop link icon so that you are just one click away from producing it. Go to files, go to downloads, find your PDF, hold it under your finger until it changes, then click the 3 dots and choose create desktop icon.


----------



## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> I agree, a more meaningful figure would be the percentage of positive cases that lead to hospitalisation.


I don't know about other regions, but Valencia gives those figures.



Figures published yesterday showed +/- 2,4 % of active cases are currently in hospital, and +/- 0,2 % of active cases are in ICU which is +/- 9 % of those in hospital.

This despite a massive 4 day increase of nearly 5000 cases.


----------



## kaipa

xabiaxica said:


> I don't know about other regions, but Valencia gives those figures.
> 
> 
> 
> Figures published yesterday showed +/- 2,4 % of active cases are currently in hospital, and +/- 0,2 % of active cases are in ICU which is +/- 9 % of those in hospital.
> 
> This despite a massive 4 day increase of nearly 5000 cases.
> View attachment 99852



Yes I guess from a layman's viewpoint ( which we all are) that has a certain positiveness to it and some countries in far east have said that is what they will publish. However, if it really was that simple why is it it that the people who actually study these things keep focussing on the rate of infections? I presume they know more than most of us and when they explain things they say that while that model was fine last year the new variant has meant that if you wait until hospitalizations and deaths are equal to back in January you will have left it too late to stop a more deadly wave. The daily infection level indicate where we will be in a month or so and is therefore very important as what matters is getting as many folk vaccinated as fast as possible so we reach the herd immunity which is when the virus is rendered far less harmful as it cant mutate as quickly as it needs to to keep active


----------



## blondebob

kaipa said:


> Yes I guess from a layman's viewpoint ( which we all are) that has a certain positiveness to it and some countries in far east have said that is what they will publish. However, if it really was that simple why is it it that the people who actually study these things keep focussing on the rate of infections? I presume they know more than most of us and when they explain things they say that while that model was fine last year the new variant has meant that if you wait until hospitalizations and deaths are equal to back in January you will have left it too late to stop a more deadly wave. The daily infection level indicate where we will be in a month or so and is therefore very important as what matters is getting as many folk vaccinated as fast as possible so we reach the herd immunity which is when the virus is rendered far less harmful as it cant mutate as quickly as it needs to to keep active


But Spain has vaxxed the vast majority of the Vulnerable in its populace and beyond and from your posts you've had yours, so what exactly is the problem here?


----------



## Overandout

kaipa said:


> Yes I guess from a layman's viewpoint ( which we all are) that has a certain positiveness to it and some countries in far east have said that is what they will publish. However, if it really was that simple why is it it that the people who actually study these things keep focussing on the rate of infections? I presume they know more than most of us and when they explain things they say that while that model was fine last year the new variant has meant that if you wait until hospitalizations and deaths are equal to back in January you will have left it too late to stop a more deadly wave. The daily infection level indicate where we will be in a month or so and is therefore very important as what matters is getting as many folk vaccinated as fast as possible so we reach the herd immunity which is when the virus is rendered far less harmful as it cant mutate as quickly as it needs to to keep active


Yes, but I personally have heard on the news that, for example Region X now has an infectiona rate of ABC per 100,000 inhabitants which is the same as in April 2020. But this is misleading because the improvement oin the situation brought about by the vaccinations is being concealed.


----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## kaipa

Went for my 2nd dose yesterday. Had to queue a bit in the sun which was unpleasant but they were dealing with alot of people and were super effecient. It must be hard work for everyone doing that daily. All in all very impressive.
Still Spain has a long way to go until they can really get some control over infection rates. Sanchez clearly doesn't want to get involved in national measures as it just gives the opposition opportunities to attack them in Congress. What we are seeing is local area using the autonomous powers to deal with things. Galicia is now bringing back TDQ and Barcelona putting restrictions on nightlife. Whether they can get through the summer is another matter as they have now raised the level to alta riesgo.


----------



## xabiaxica

Lots of off topic posts have been moved to La Tasca


----------



## tardigrade

deleted... wrong thread


----------



## xabiaxica

off topic posts moved to La Tasca...again!


----------



## Megsmum

xabiaxica said:


> Lots of off topic posts have been moved to La Tasca
> 
> View attachment 99877


Apparently, Spain will be heading towards third place in fully vaccinated in Europe. 


..









good news..


----------



## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> Apparently, Spain will be heading towards third place in fully vaccinated in Europe.
> 
> 
> ..
> View attachment 99887
> 
> 
> good news..


VERY good news!

Off to a slow start, but once they started...


----------



## Megsmum

Absolutely... Obviously there's along way to go but I for one, didn't think this time last year almost half the population would be fully vaccinated, I even doubted there would be a vaccine. Let's celebrate the beginning of the end even though the end is still not in sight


----------



## Lynn R

Good progress. I believe Andalucia will be starting to vaccinate the 16-20 age group from next week.









Spain hits July target of 25 million people fully vaccinated


The fourth objective set by the government has been met, with 53% of the country’s population now enjoying the full protection offered by the Covid-19 vaccines




english.elpais.com


----------



## tardigrade

Several reports of *YEARLY* shots needed going around and Pfizer seems to work better with 2 months between 1st and 2nd doses...

This is never going to end. The new normal...


----------



## Barriej

tardigrade said:


> Several reports of *YEARLY* shots needed going around and Pfizer seems to work better with 2 months between 1st and 2nd doses...
> 
> This is never going to end. The new normal...


I reckon they will bundle the covid booster in with the flu shot available to all those who need it. 
Makes sense to me, this virus will just keep mutating anyway, it will fade away for a couple of years and then come back, just like most others.


----------



## tardigrade

Is this report true? 39% effective against Delta..

https://finance.yahoo.com/video/pfizer-vaccine-39-effective-against-152252616.html


----------



## kaipa

tardigrade said:


> Is this report true? 39% effective against Delta..
> 
> https://finance.yahoo.com/video/pfizer-vaccine-39-effective-against-152252616.html



I think its 39% effective against Kanye West!!!


----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## Alcalaina

tardigrade said:


> Is this report true? 39% effective against Delta..
> 
> https://finance.yahoo.com/video/pfizer-vaccine-39-effective-against-152252616.html


I heard a similar report on the BBC world service. Pretty encouraging I thought, and a very good reason to have the vaccine.



> New data out of Israel on the effectiveness of the Pfizer, BioNTech vaccine against the Delta variant of COVID-19. The shot is just 39% effective at preventing infection entirely, but did offer *88% protection against hospitalization and 91% against severe illness*. That's according to the country's health ministry.


----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## Lynn R

xabiaxica said:


> View attachment 99972
> View attachment 99973


I have to admit that in the early part of this year, when the campaign seemed to be going quite slowly, I had doubts that the target of 70% fully vaccinated by the end of the summer would be reached, but I'm very glad those doubts have been confounded. All those involved in planning and delivering the vaccinations deserve our gratitude and admiration.


----------



## tardigrade

Lynn R said:


> I have to admit that in the early part of this year, when the campaign seemed to be going quite slowly, I had doubts that the target of 70% fully vaccinated by the end of the summer would be reached, but I'm very glad those doubts have been confounded. All those involved in planning and delivering the vaccinations deserve our gratitude and admiration.


I agree, but it did seem very slow. I think it was the waiting for all the old people to be double vaccinated before they moved on to another group.

Does the 70% goal include children above 12 years of age?


----------



## Lynn R

I think it was only in the group including care home residents and front line health workers that they wanted to make sure they were fully vaccinated before starting on the next group, and I am not sure I would have argued against that.

Don't know whether children of 12 years and up are included in the target, but I know it has been announced that vaccination of secondary school children in that age group will begin in August, so they can be fully vaccinated before the new school year starts in September.

Given the figure of 54.3% already double jabbed (as per the figures posted by xabiachica) and that they will be starting to vaccinate the 16-20 age group from next week (well in my region of Andalucia they will) I think the 70% fully vaccinated target is going to be exceeded by the end of August.

Of course that will not be the end of it, there will undoubtedly be booster jabs and even quite possibly annual ones (we have them for flu, so why not?) but the way this campaign has been carried out gives me confidence that the system can cope.


----------



## Lynn R

Andalucia makes good on its promise to start vaccinating the 16-20 age group this week:-









Andalucía abre las citas para la vacuna contra la Covid a jóvenes desde los 18 años


Desde el martes lo pueden solicitar las personas de 18 y 19 años y el jueves les toca el turno a los nacidos en 2004 y 2005 (17 y 16 años). La vacunación masiva continúa avanzando en todo el ámbito estatal




www.malagahoy.es


----------



## xabiaxica

Lynn R said:


> Andalucia makes good on its promise to start vaccinating the 16-20 age group this week:-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andalucía abre las citas para la vacuna contra la Covid a jóvenes desde los 18 años
> 
> 
> Desde el martes lo pueden solicitar las personas de 18 y 19 años y el jueves les toca el turno a los nacidos en 2004 y 2005 (17 y 16 años). La vacunación masiva continúa avanzando en todo el ámbito estatal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.malagahoy.es


Although Valencia had planned to start vaccinating the 18 to 29 age group next week, I can only assume that they have already started, because my 25 year old daughter has her first vaccination on Tuesday 3rd August & the second booked for the 24th.

Students in Bachi or Formación Profesional (age 16-18) will also be vaccinated before returning to school.


----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## Megsmum

xabiaxica said:


> View attachment 100036
> View attachment 100037


An absolute phenomenal effort by the healthcare bodies. Also, a boohoo to all those people who said that the Spanish would refuse the vaccine. Truly impressive


----------



## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> An absolute phenomenal effort by the healthcare bodies. Also, a boohoo to all those people who said that the Spanish would refuse the vaccine. Truly impressive


So many British people are still complaining that Spain has dragged its feet with vaccinations. 

It doesn't help when the UK gives its figures as a percentage of adults, so 70% sounds so much better! I even heard Grant Schapps say 90% yesterday! He must have been referring to adults with one dose, but he implied both doses. 

When worked out as a percentage of population it's a different story, & atm, both are doing phenomenally well.


----------



## kaipa

xabiaxica said:


> So many British people are still complaining that Spain has dragged its feet with vaccinations.
> 
> It doesn't help when the UK gives its figures as a percentage of adults, so 70% sounds so much better! I even heard Grant Schapps say 90% yesterday! He must have been referring to adults with one dose, but he implied both doses.
> 
> When worked out as a percentage of population it's a different story, & atm, both are doing phenomenally well.


Totally agree. Spain has really done well and gets little praise from the UK who behave as if the whole thing is a race
.


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> Totally agree. Spain has really done well and gets little praise from the UK who behave as if the whole thing is a race
> .


I suspect Xiabiaxa means Brits in Spain, they're the ones I read moaning about Spain etc, I don't think many British living in UK unless wanting to holiday give a flying fig about Spains Vaccination programme.


----------



## tardigrade

the only brits i hear complaining are those on private medical insurance and have no association with their local health centers trying to get a vaccine.


----------



## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> I suspect Xiabiaxa means Brits in Spain, they're the ones I read moaning about Spain etc, I don't think many British living in UK unless wanting to holiday give a flying fig about Spains Vaccination programme.


Yes, I do mean Brits who live in Spain - & those who rely on the UK for their news.


----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## Megsmum

xabiaxica said:


> View attachment 100074
> View attachment 100075


Thanks for taking the time to post all the positive stuff. It's great to see such progress


----------



## tardigrade

Progress? No it is not; for any of the listed countries. Portugal and Spain tied.. There is a big difference in population numbers between the 2. Sadly, the UK seems to be the winner here just based on population and time to do it.

What is the overall % of the EU? The USA is saying 70%, Canada (smaller population) is even higher but they are socialist. Can Europe even come close to that?

What this tells me is that all of these pay into health services do not work or are not organized.


----------



## xabiaxica

tardigrade said:


> Progress? No it is not; for any of the listed countries. Portugal and Spain tied.. There is a big difference in population numbers between the 2. Sadly, the UK seems to be the winner here just based on population and time to do it.
> 
> What is the overall % of the EU? The USA is saying 70%, Canada (smaller population) is even higher but they are socialist. Can Europe even come close to that?
> 
> What this tells me is that all of these pay into health services do not work or are not organized.


Percentages are reliable - the higher the population, the more facilities available - at least as far as developed countries are concerned.


Apparently herd immunity is linked to percentage of population vaccinated - so the percentage of population vaccinated is clearly the best way of looking at it.


----------



## Isobella

Rule of thumb, choose those stats which says what you want


----------



## xabiaxica

Isobella said:


> Rule of thumb, choose those stats which says what you want


If we have to compare, it must be apples with apples.

Hence looking at % of population jabbed for each country, rather than percentage of a section of the population for some (oranges), & of the total population for others (apples).


----------



## blondebob

Isobella said:


> Rule of thumb, choose those stats which says what you want


Indeed, as the saying goes 

"Research and research until you find the information / results you actually want to agree with your thoughts.
Anything else and the results are wrong!!"


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Nothing!


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Nothing!


https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations?country=ESP~GBR~FRA~DEU~PRT~ITA - you can choose which countries to compare. I chose our nearest European neighbours.









Estado y progreso vacunación COVID-19 España 2021


Consulta el estado y progreso de la vacunación del COVID-19 de forma diaria según datos del gobierno.




covid-vacuna.app





I'm not sure which of the two you wanted.


----------



## Alcalaina

They are starting to vaccinate 12-year.olds in Andalucia this week. The percentage of the population with two doses should reach the goal of 70% today or tomorrow (that excludes under-12s, who won't get a jab).

One curious statistic in the table is that 101.22% of doses received have been administered. Not sure how they managed that!









Andalucía vacuna a 461.929 personas esta semana, 126.907 menos que la anterior


Un total de 5.159.051 andaluces cuentan con la pauta vacunal completa




www.diariosur.es


----------



## Megsmum

Alcalaina said:


> They are starting to vaccinate 12-year.olds in Andalucia this week. The percentage of the population with two doses should reach the goal of 70% today or tomorrow (that excludes under-12s, who won't get a jab).
> 
> One curious statistic in the table is that 101.22% of doses received have been administered. Not sure how they managed that!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Andalucía vacuna a 461.929 personas esta semana, 126.907 menos que la anterior
> 
> 
> Un total de 5.159.051 andaluces cuentan con la pauta vacunal completa
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.diariosur.es


Here in Extremadura too


----------



## Beach buddy

As promised by the Junta received the official vaccination passport in all its’ beautiful colour.


----------



## blondebob

Beach buddy said:


> As promised by the Junta received the official vaccination *passport i*n all its’ beautiful colour.


How fabulous but it's not real passport is it? 😅


----------



## Beach buddy

No just what they called it.


----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## Lynn R

A mere 0.6% of the population of Anndalucia have opted to refuse the Covid19 vaccination, apparently.









Sólo 50.791 andaluces han rechazado ponerse la vacuna contra el Covid


El Gobierno andaluz insiste en recuperar a personas que rechazaron la inmunización cuando alcanza el 65% de la población ya inmunizada Juanma Moreno pide a las embarazadas que se vacunen tras la muerte de una en Sevilla




www.malagahoy.es


----------



## olivefarmer

And the price of the next round of jabs has gone up. I expected them to go down but in fairness they did say they would go up.


----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## kaipa

Well done Spain. Sanchez said he would get 70 % of population vaccinated by end of August.


----------



## timwip

My thirteen year old niece got her first shot yesterday.


----------



## Alcalaina

We've hit 80% double-jabbed in Andalucia and they are trying to round up the strays with walk-in centres.


----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## timwip

At the beginning of the pandemic, Adrian Barbón the President of the Principality of Asturias promised that he would not compromise the health of Asturians. He has really lived up to his word. Asturias leads the communities in full vaccine at 78.35%. I have met nurses that had to hike to isolated communities in the mountains to vaccinate.


----------



## Megsmum

Spain hits target of fully vaccinating 70% of population. *A total of 33.2 million people are completely immunized against Covid-19, a milestone no other country of comparative size has reached in such a short period of time. 









In just eight months, Spain hits target of fully vaccinating 70% of population


A total of 33.2 million people are completely immunized against Covid-19, a milestone no other country of comparative size has reached in such a short period of time




english.elpais.com










*


----------



## kaipa

Megsmum said:


> Spain hits target of fully vaccinating 70% of population. *A total of 33.2 million people are completely immunized against Covid-19, a milestone no other country of comparative size has reached in such a short period of time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In just eight months, Spain hits target of fully vaccinating 70% of population
> 
> 
> A total of 33.2 million people are completely immunized against Covid-19, a milestone no other country of comparative size has reached in such a short period of time
> 
> 
> 
> 
> english.elpais.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


Absolutely brilliant work by Spain. If it were UK Boris would be waving his flag proclaiming world dominance. Thankfully the Spanish government recognize this as the combined work of many organisations and nothing to do with sheer politics. Anyway well done Spain!!


----------



## Megsmum

Are these figures total share of population or those elegible IE 12 and over


----------



## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> Are these figures total share of population or those elegible IE 12 and over


Percentage of the full population. 

It's the only way to compare like with like.


----------



## Alcalaina

xabiaxica said:


> Percentage of the full population.
> 
> It's the only way to compare like with like.


Ah, that explains why Andalucia are reporting more than 80% double-jabbed - it's referring to over-12s only.


----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## Overandout

Asturias has administered more doses than it has received! That is impressive, but it makes you wonder where they got them from!


----------



## timwip

Overandout said:


> Asturias has administered more doses than it has received! That is impressive, but it makes you wonder where they got them from!


Not really sure; however, the health authorities have been aggressive in capturing the statistics of Asturian residents not vaccinated in Asturias. For example, my wife and I were vaccinated in the United States. We provided our information to our primary care physician. We were then called by Sanidad in order for them to register it in their statistics. As a result, between my wife and I there were 4 doses administered to residents that were not delivered to Asturias. This could account for the 3000 dose difference.


----------



## kalohi

Overandout said:


> Asturias has administered more doses than it has received! That is impressive, but it makes you wonder where they got them from!


I've read it's because they get more doses out a vial than are officially contained in the vial. So if a vial contains 5 doses, but they manage to give 6 doses from that vial, then they've given 120% of the doses received.


----------



## tardigrade

kalohi said:


> I've read it's because they get more doses out a vial than are officially contained in the vial. So if a vial contains 5 doses, but they manage to give 6 doses from that vial, then they've given 120% of the doses received.


Is not that medical malpractice?


----------



## xabiaxica

timwip said:


> Not really sure; however, the health authorities have been aggressive in capturing the statistics of Asturian residents not vaccinated in Asturias. For example, my wife and I were vaccinated in the United States. We provided our information to our primary care physician. We were then called by Sanidad in order for them to register it in their statistics. As a result, between my wife and I there were 4 doses administered to residents that were not delivered to Asturias. This could account for the 3000 dose difference.


That would make complete sense!


----------



## timwip

tardigrade said:


> Is not that medical malpractice?


Nope. Apparently Pfizer and Moderna were putting extra in their vials. As a result, some smart nurses figured out that if they were careful, they could get six full doses out of a vial meant for five doses.


----------



## timwip

Another factor in the Asturian statistics has been the posture of Adrian Barbón, the President of the Principality. Ever since the vaccines have come out, he has been putting great pressure on the local sanitary people to put the vaccines in arms. As a result, we have been running at 100% administration rate all along. He then uses this statistic to argue that Asturias should get more vaccines. After all, there are only two reasons why a community can be under 100%: (a) they are waiting to be administered or (b) they have been delivered but can not be administered because of holding times having been exceeded. Mr. Barbón argues that both these are legitimate reasons why Asturias should be getting more vaccines.

It´s refreshing to see a politician really care for the people he represents!


----------



## blondebob

Fair play to Adrian Barbón..


----------



## timwip

Just read in this morning’s paper that today Asturias is starting to provide Pfizer booster to nursing home residents.


----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## Isobella

timwip said:


> Just read in this morning’s paper that today Asturias is starting to provide Pfizer booster to nursing home residents.


Is there a time gap from other doses? Husband (in UK) has appointment for booster next week but it says there must be a 6 month gap from first 2 vaccines of 6 months. He had his first December and second early Jan.


----------



## timwip

Isobella said:


> Is there a time gap from other doses? Husband (in UK) has appointment for booster next week but it says there must be a 6 month gap from first 2 vaccines of 6 months. He had his first December and second early Jan.


The article in today's Oviedo paper did not go into that detail. It just says that today they will start giving boosters to 13,000 nursing home residents. However, in this morning´s New York Times, it says the CDC has approved a booster for 65 and older 6 months from your second dose of Pfizer. They still have not determined anything regarding a booster for Moderna or J&J.


----------



## xabiaxica

timwip said:


> The article in today's Oviedo paper did not go into that detail. It just says that today they will start giving boosters to 13,000 nursing home residents. However, in this morning´s New York Times, it says the CDC has approved a booster for 65 and older 6 months from your second dose of Pfizer. They still have not determined anything regarding a booster for Moderna or J&J.


Boosters have started in residencies for the elderly in the Valencia region, too.


----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## Alcalaina

Andalucia will reach 90% of over-12s this week, and most of the region will return to Level 0 on Friday - no limits on numbers, opening hours etc (though the rules on masks will not change as this is decided by the national government, not the regional one).

More importantly, there will be a return to face-to-face doctor's appointments, with telephone consultations retained for those who want them.









Andalucía eliminará restricciones y recuperará la presencialidad en los centros de salud desde el viernes


La Junta anuncia que los distritos sanitarios con menos de 50 contagios por cada cien mil habitantes en los últimos catorce días volverán a la normalidad, sin límites ho




www.diariosur.es


----------



## xabiaxica

The posts not directly related to the vaccination programme are now here Covid19 in Spain


----------



## Megsmum

Had my booster yesterday..


----------



## timwip

Megsmum said:


> Had my booster yesterday..


Quick questions-The boosters are Pfizer. Was your original vaccination with Pfizer? Do you know if Spain is giving the Pfizer booster to people that did not get the Pfizer originally?


----------



## Megsmum

timwip said:


> Quick questions-The boosters are Pfizer. Was your original vaccination with Pfizer? Do you know if Spain is giving the Pfizer booster to people that did not get the Pfizer originally?


No my booster was moderna as were my first two


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Megsmum said:


> Had my booster yesterday..


MM, did you get a booster because you are classified as an "at risk" patient?


----------



## Megsmum

Pesky Wesky said:


> MM, did you get a booster because you are classified as an "at risk" patient?



Yes, I presume so.


----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## jimenato

🤔


----------



## xabiaxica

DAILY NEW DEATHS PER MILLION POPULATION


----------



## Lynn R

Seems pretty encouraging:-









Falling Covid cases in Spain’s schools lead experts to believe herd immunity is near


A month into the academic year, infection rates remain low even among unvaccinated children




english.elpais.com


----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## Overandout

What is "pauta completa" now? Three jabs Pfizer / AZ and two jabs Janssen?


----------



## kaipa

Overandout said:


> What is "pauta completa" now? Three jabs Pfizer / AZ and two jabs Janssen?


Two


----------



## Joppa

Overandout said:


> What is "pauta completa" now? Three jabs Pfizer / AZ and two jabs Janssen?


Those who had one-shot Janssen get as booster one-shot Phizer/BioNTech, now called Comirnaty.


----------



## Overandout

Joppa said:


> Those who had one-shot Janssen get as booster one-shot Phizer/BioNTech, now called Comirnaty.


Are you confirming that those with only the Janssen jab (original) are not considered as having the "pauta completa"?


----------



## xabiaxica

Overandout said:


> Are you confirming that those with only the Janssen jab (original) are not considered as having the "pauta completa"?


The pauta completa refers to the original dose, one shot Jansenn, two of AZ, Pfizer or Moderna. 

The current new round of jabs is considered to be a booster shot.


----------



## xabiaxica

The vaccination of children aged 5 to 11 has been approved & will start next week









España aprueba la vacunación infantil y comenzará la campaña de los niños de entre 5 y 11 años el 15 de diciembre


La Comisión de Salud Pública aprueba la inoculación de los menores de 12, la franja que más contagios reporta




elpais.com


----------



## kaipa

xabiaxica said:


> The vaccination of children aged 5 to 11 has been approved & will start next week
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> España aprueba la vacunación infantil y comenzará la campaña de los niños de entre 5 y 11 años el 15 de diciembre
> 
> 
> La Comisión de Salud Pública aprueba la inoculación de los menores de 12, la franja que más contagios reporta
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elpais.com


Guaranteed to cause a few Facebook groups to explode with righteous anger before the week is up!!


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> Guaranteed to cause a few Facebook groups to explode with righteous anger before the week is up!!


yep!

Members on one local group are compiling a list of establishments which don't require a covid pass, & even suggesting boycotting those which do!


----------



## kaipa

xabiaxica said:


> yep!
> 
> Members on one local group are compiling a list of establishments which don't require a covid pass, & even suggesting boycotting those which do!


How do they boycott places which wouldn't let them in anyway? Still, there is always the UCIs - no passport required there so they shouldn't complain!!


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> How do they boycott places which wouldn't let them in anyway? Still, there is always the UCIs - no passport required there so they shouldn't complain!!


Precisely! 

Although I guess if they are vaccinated they can get a covid passport, but choose not to. 

I don't see the logic myself. If you're vaccinated, why not take advantage of the fact & use the freedoms that allows.


----------



## Overandout

Joppa said:


> Those who had one-shot Janssen get as booster one-shot Phizer/BioNTech, now called Comirnaty.


I had my booster on Monday (had the Janssen shot in June) and it was Moderna, not Pfizer.

I get the feeling that Pfizer is being restricted for the elite class only!


----------



## Overandout

xabiaxica said:


> Precisely!
> 
> Although I guess if they are vaccinated they can get a covid passport, but choose not to.
> 
> I don't see the logic myself. If you're vaccinated, why not take advantage of the fact & use the freedoms that allows.


Being vaccinated doesn't give you any extra freedom though, it is not being vaccinated which restricts it.


----------



## Lynn R

Overandout said:


> I had my booster on Monday (had the Janssen shot in June) and it was Moderna, not Pfizer.
> 
> I get the feeling that Pfizer is being restricted for the elite class only!


I got Pfizer for my booster shot last week (had AZ for the first 2).


----------



## Joppa

Overandout said:


> I had my booster on Monday (had the Janssen shot in June) and it was Moderna, not Pfizer.
> 
> I get the feeling that Pfizer is being restricted for the elite class only!


Yes, you get either Moderna (which is now called Spikevax) or Pfizer (now called Cominarty usually made in Germany by BioNTech). Those who had two-shot Cominarty get another Cominarty.


----------



## number9

has anyone seen any signals of Spain reducing the interval between jab 2 and the booster?


----------



## Megsmum

I had three moderna..all three between April and September


----------



## Chopera

Megsmum said:


> I had three moderna..all three between April and September


Me too but, like you, I am classified as vulnerable so I don't think our cases are typical. My wife had covid in February and then had a Pfizer jab in August, and they say that is equivalent to 2 jabs. At least it was enough to get her a covid passport. I guess she'll be offered a booster eventually.


----------



## Chopera

xabiaxica said:


> Precisely!
> 
> Although I guess if they are vaccinated they can get a covid passport, but choose not to.
> 
> I don't see the logic myself. If you're vaccinated, why not take advantage of the fact & use the freedoms that allows.


I'm triple jabbed and have two covid passporrts (I need the EU cert for travel) but out of principle I'm opposed to covid passports being used in Spain. The Spanish have one of the highest vaccination rates on earth, so why force them to carry covid passports? Shouldn't they instead be rewarded by not having to deal with more rules and regulations?


----------



## kaipa

Chopera said:


> I'm triple jabbed and have two covid passporrts (I need the EU cert for travel) but out of principle I'm opposed to covid passports being used in Spain. The Spanish have one of the highest vaccination rates on earth, so why force them to carry covid passports? Shouldn't they instead be rewarded by not having to deal with more rules and regulations?


Unfortunately Spain is now in a high risk group due to the increase in reported infections this week. It is particularly bad in northern areas where the climate is colder( and tracing is actually more stringent- suggesting Spain is worse than it thinks). The argument is that increased infections are leading to more pressure on hospitals. Many communities are starting to bring in compulsory use of Covid passports for various situations. I guess you have to decide whether your moral convictions are more important than your desire to participate in some areas of public life. Challenging the law I imagine would make for a fairly difficult time.
People who are vaccinated are rewarded: a greater chance of not dying ( cant think of a bigger reward!).
I really dont understand the argument that all this undermines human rights or that it symbolises repression of minority groups or that it is part of a secret war waged by paedophilic capitalists. Its nature versus humans.


----------



## xabiaxica




----------



## Chopera

kaipa said:


> Unfortunately Spain is now in a high risk group due to the increase in reported infections this week. It is particularly bad in northern areas where the climate is colder( and tracing is actually more stringent- suggesting Spain is worse than it thinks). The argument is that increased infections are leading to more pressure on hospitals. Many communities are starting to bring in compulsory use of Covid passports for various situations. I guess you have to decide whether your moral convictions are more important than your desire to participate in some areas of public life. Challenging the law I imagine would make for a fairly difficult time.
> People who are vaccinated are rewarded: a greater chance of not dying ( cant think of a bigger reward!).
> I really dont understand the argument that all this undermines human rights or that it symbolises repression of minority groups or that it is part of a secret war waged by paedophilic capitalists. Its nature versus humans.


The argument about human rights is based on to what extent can someone interfere in the affairs of other people. If your livelihood is based on selling say food to a customer who is willing to pay for your food, then under what conditions can someone else stop you from doing so? It's something philosophers have been arguing over for centuries.

The "pressure on hospitals" needs to be quantified. Hospitals always come under more pressure in winter, that in itself is not an argument to impose restrictions. Next time there's a nasty flu outbreak will we have passports for flu jabs as well? Just to keep the pressure off the hospitals? Maybe we'll be having curfews at night to reduce the "pressure on the police"? I can understand restrictions to prevent the health service from collapsing, but just "reducing pressure" is too ambiguous.

Furthermore, while cases may be rising (perhaps due to omicron) AFAIK the regions in Spain currently trying to introduce covid passports started trying to do so when cases were low, and before omicron was even discovered, and even now, the hospitalisations and UCI occupancy is still lower than it was in summer. Transmission has gone up as the vaccines have worn off, but covid still isn't putting that many more people in hospital.









España vuelve al riesgo alto de contagios de covid después de tres meses


Esta es la tercera ola en la que el país sobrepasa los 300 diagnósticos por 100.000 habitantes, pero la situación de los hospitales es mucho mejor que en ocasiones anteriores




elpais.com





More stuff here (a bit out of date):









Todos los datos de la evolución diaria de la COVID-19 en España


Análisis, datos y gráficos para entender la evolución de la enfermedad causada por el coronavirus en España.




www.datadista.com


----------



## number9

UK tells it's people 2 jabs are ineffective against Omicrom and plans to further ramp up the booster program.

Not seen any evidence that Spain has changed course since the new variant emerged. The plan here still seems to be targeted at over 60's with 6 months interval from the last jab.

Has anyone heard or read anything suggesting a change or urgent review in Spanish media?






Dosis de recuerdo frente a COVID-19 - Vacunación - Conselleria de Sanidad Universal y Salud Pública


Dosis de recuerdo frente a COVID-19




coronavirus.san.gva.es


----------



## xabiaxica

number9 said:


> UK tells it's people 2 jabs are ineffective against Omicrom and plans to further ramp up the booster program.
> 
> Not seen any evidence that Spain has changed course since the new variant emerged. The plan here still seems to be targeted at over 60's with 6 months interval from the last jab.
> 
> Has anyone heard or read anything suggesting a change or urgent review in Spanish media?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dosis de recuerdo frente a COVID-19 - Vacunación - Conselleria de Sanidad Universal y Salud Pública
> 
> 
> Dosis de recuerdo frente a COVID-19
> 
> 
> 
> 
> coronavirus.san.gva.es


Not heard of any panic jabbing going on. There are currently very few cases of Omicron in Spain. Neither have I yet heard evidence that what BJ said is actuallly true, but rather that experts are divided in their opinion regarding this. 

However, over 60s are currently getting their boosters & those who had AZ or Jansenn get them after 3 months.

Some areas are a little slower & some a little faster.


----------



## kaipa

Yes. Spain hasnt yet gone totally Marvel comics over this. Boris is doing it to try gain all the applause that the UK media laundered on the government with the first vaccine roll out. He wants this as it is part of his strategy to survive as leader. Boosters undoubtedly help but now the UK is panicking because they have launched such a colossal campaign ( 1 million a day!!!) and it makes everyone with just 2 jabs feel vulnerable. Love the way he borrowed from Nicola Sturgeon's Tsunami quote but he used Tidal Wave. Honestly what a desperate situation the government has caused. At least in Spain they dont turn politics into such a pathetic media show so at least keep decision more focussed on social needs than filling up the papers with stupid things


----------



## number9

It could simply be that clinically there is a need for booster jabs - I doubt there would be a serious attempt to roll out so many boosters if it were a vanity or political move.

I note from our world in data that Spain has a high level of Omicron in its covid cases - let's hope they know what they doing as the new variant seems to spread like wild fire. There are many in Spain who have not only had just two jabs but the second was administered some months ago now.

I won't say I am not concerned.


----------



## kaipa

Spain is relying on getting kids vaxed as opposed to boosters


----------



## Alcalaina

kaipa said:


> Spain is relying on getting kids vaxed as opposed to boosters


It’s doing both. But as pointed out above, they are waiting 6 months before giving boosters to those who had Pfizer or Moderna so that means starting with older age groups and working down. 

Latest research from SA suggests vaccines are up to 40% less effective in producing antibodies against omicron but still stimulate T-cell production which reduces risk of serious illness. No deaths recorded there so far from omicron.


----------



## Chopera

Yes my hope is the main personal threat from omicron is that it might ruin people's Christmas rather than put them in hospital. Even so, if everyone is going to get it at once then there might be enough hospitalisations to put the health service at risk of collapse.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Spain is giving booster jabs much as it did the first 2 doses - by age. At present it's over 60's, but soon it will be over 50's and will go down successively.
At the same time it's trying to persuade people who haven't been vaccinated at all to come forward.
And they are also rolling out vaccinations for children from 5 - 11 starting on the 15th Dec.
They are not relying on any one course of action and, at the moment at least seem to making a real effort to get everyone vaccinated.
One of the reasons that things are going quicker is that they have opened a lot more centres for vaccination than they did at first. For the first jab I had to travel 45 mins, for the second 30 mins and for the booster just 10 mins. Also they have made the decision to use what ever vaccine they have for the third dose, I had AZ for the first 2 and Moderna for the third. Maybe Pfizer is being " reserved for the elite" but I think there is just a lot more Moderna around at the moment.
I am amazed at how painless the actual injection is. I have barely felt it.


----------



## Chopera

My second Moderna dose caused a few days of pain in my arm exactly a week later. Fixed with paracetemol. My in-laws have already managed to book jabs for their 9 and 7 year old children for tomorrow (in Madrid).

I personally think the fact that Spain is still prioritising the elderly and vulnerable for boosters might work out better in terms of hospitalisations, compared to the free-fo-all now in the UK, where it seems younger people can now push more vulnerable people further down the queue. But we'll have to wait and see.

Also I've heard the UK is deliberately giving people different vaccines for their booster to what they received for their first doses. It seems they think there's a benefit in having a mix of vaccines. I guess Spain might be doing the same.


----------



## kaipa

Spain is relying heavily on getting kids vaccinated as that is the group showing the highest levels of infection at the moment. The booster campaign is not as focused as UK as they are primarily using that for the most vulnerable groups.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> Spain is relying heavily on getting kids vaccinated as that is the group showing the highest levels of infection at the moment. The booster campaign is not as focused as UK as they are primarily using that for the most vulnerable groups.


Do you think that the UK's approach is "better" than Spain's ?


----------



## kaipa

Pesky Wesky said:


> Do you think that the UK's approach is "better" than Spain's ?


I do think that vaccinating kids is a good idea because that is now the highest infection group so controlling that should slow things down. The UK has tangled up its Covid response so much with politics ( union Jack's in every ministerial interview etc) that it now ( after the rebellion last night) almost impossible for Boris to impose any new rules for fear of having a leadership challenge. His party is leaning toward the type of liberalism that Bolsanaro uses in Brazil. In other words if tens of thousands die this winter that's the new reality. Spain is still driven by its scientific advisors and apart from Vox there isnt much appetite to start a fight over vaccine passports, face masks, social distancing. It appears most Spanish are quite compliant and not running around behaving as though they are in Shindler"s List.


----------



## number9

The covid response in the UK is delegated to the devolved countries who also run their own versions of the NHS. I think they also lean quite heavily on the likes of Chris Whitty and other subject matter experts.

Quite what Schindler's list has to do with it is anyone's guess.

Much of what happens can only be judged on outcomes not by armchair experts like us, thankfully.


----------



## xabiaxica

number9 said:


> *The covid response in the UK is delegated to the devolved countries* who also run their own versions of the NHS. I think they also lean quite heavily on the likes of Chris Whitty and other subject matter experts.
> 
> Quite what Schindler's list has to do with it is anyone's guess.
> 
> Much of what happens can only be judged on outcomes not by armchair experts like us, thankfully.


Much like it is delegated to the autonomous comunidades in Spain.


----------



## Chopera

kaipa said:


> I do think that vaccinating kids is a good idea because that is now the highest infection group so controlling that should slow things down. The UK has tangled up its Covid response so much with politics ( union Jack's in every ministerial interview etc) that it now ( after the rebellion last night) almost impossible for Boris to impose any new rules for fear of having a leadership challenge. His party is leaning toward the type of liberalism that Bolsanaro uses in Brazil. In other words if tens of thousands die this winter that's the new reality. Spain is still driven by its scientific advisors and apart from Vox there isnt much appetite to start a fight over vaccine passports, face masks, social distancing. It appears most Spanish are quite compliant and not running around behaving as though they are in Shindler"s List.


The scientific foecasts I've been reading seem to say that most of the population of the UK (and I guess it's the same for other European countries) is going to get the Omicron variant over the next month or so, regardless of whether they have been vaccinated or not (or whether they need to carry a QR code on their phone to prove it when buying a beer or not). The concern is how many of them end up in hospital at the same time, and whether the health service can cope with it. Of course many scientific foecasts have turned out to be wrong, but if there's any doubt I expect there'll be lockdowns.


----------



## Overandout

number9 said:


> Quite what Schindler's list has to do with it is anyone's guess.


Personally I find the Facebook posts comparing the idea of Covid passports or other certificates with the obligatory wearing of a yellow star by Jews in Nazi Germany quite distasteful (offensive even) but sadly there are those who really do compare the healthcare measures with the religious discrimination which culminated in the hollocaust.


----------



## Alcalaina

Had my booster this morning at the mobile unit, no appointment necessary, available to anyone over 60 on presentation of DNI/TIE. They got through the queue of around a hundred people in just over half an hour - primary school kids had their turn this afternoon. Once again, hats off to the Andalucía health service.

Does anyone know if the third shot will automatically appear on the vaccine certificate?


----------



## Megsmum

Alcalaina said:


> Had my booster this morning at the mobile unit, no appointment necessary, available to anyone over 60 on presentation of DNI/TIE. They got through the queue of around a hundred people in just over half an hour - primary school kids had their turn this afternoon. Once again, h
> ats off to the Andalucía health service.
> 
> Does anyone know if the third shot will automatically appear on the vaccine certificate?


Mine did the same day. Just says

Yes husband getting his next week
Kids under 12 vaccinated in school here starting today. Spain has the most effective and highest vaccine roll out in Europe including UK


----------



## Lynn R

And now booster jabs for the over 40s have been approved.


----------



## number9

Lynn R said:


> And now booster jabs for the over 40s have been approved.


Here in Spain? Do you have a link to the announcement pls.


----------



## Lynn R

Alcalaina said:


> Does anyone know if the third shot will automatically appear on the vaccine certificate?


Yes, both mine and my husband's did (in Andalucia) less than 24 hours after the jabs were done.


----------



## Lynn R

number9 said:


> Here in Spain? Do you have a link to the announcement pls.


Certainly. It has been widely reported in the press and on TV.










Sanidad aprueba la dosis de refuerzo para los mayores de 40 años y los vacunados con AstraZeneca


La Comisión de Salud Pública amplía su plan inicial y extiende la tercera dosis a las personas de 40 años en adelante, a las que se vacunará una vez se termine con el grupo de 50 a 59 años




www.eldiario.es


----------



## number9

Lynn R said:


> Certainly. It has been widely reported in the press and on TV.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sanidad aprueba la dosis de refuerzo para los mayores de 40 años y los vacunados con AstraZeneca
> 
> 
> La Comisión de Salud Pública amplía su plan inicial y extiende la tercera dosis a las personas de 40 años en adelante, a las que se vacunará una vez se termine con el grupo de 50 a 59 años
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.eldiario.es


Thanks seems the 6 months interval from the 2nd dose of Pfizer still applies. We are 55 and 52 and without SIP cards, though we were given a SIP number for the purposes of the vaccination program. We received txt messages advising appointment dates/ times for the first 2 - is that how it's going to work for the booster do you know? 

We have both applied for the convenio especial but that seems to take a while to be processed.


----------



## Lynn R

number9 said:


> Thanks seems the 6 months interval from the 2nd dose of Pfizer still applies. We are 55 and 52 and without SIP cards, though we were given a SIP number for the purposes of the vaccination program. We received txt messages advising appointment dates/ times for the first 2 - is that how it's going to work for the booster do you know?
> 
> We have both applied for the convenio especial but that seems to take a while to be processed.


It may vary between autonomous regions and my experience would be different from yours anyway because (a) I do have a tarjeta sanitaria and (b) I had AZ for my first 2 jabs so didn't have to wait 6 months for the booster (it can be given after 3 months for those in that group). In my case I made an appointment for the booster to be done at my local health centre, but at lunchtime the day before the appointment I received a phone call asking me to go to a nearby mass vaccination centre that same evening, instead. I don't know why it was brought forward.

Probably best if you check with your local health centre what the process will be in your area.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> Had my booster this morning at the mobile unit, no appointment necessary, available to anyone over 60 on presentation of DNI/TIE. They got through the queue of around a hundred people in just over half an hour - primary school kids had their turn this afternoon. Once again, hats off to the Andalucía health service.
> 
> Does anyone know if the third shot will automatically appear on the vaccine certificate?


Here (Madrid) you have to ask for an appointment. It does not automatically appear


----------



## Megsmum

Anyone been offered flu jab ?


----------



## kaipa

Megsmum said:


> Anyone been offered flu jab ?


I thought it was combined with the booster?


----------



## Joppa

Megsmum said:


> Anyone been offered flu jab ?


No. At the last two Covid booster appointments, we asked but were told none was available. We were offered pneumonia vaccine but declined.


----------



## xabiaxica

Megsmum said:


> Anyone been offered flu jab ?


Here in the Valencia region, those of us plugged into state healthcare can book for just the flu jab via the app, or the booster covid jab & flu jab to be done at the same time.

I've booked my double whammy for next week.

Some friends of mine with private healthcare were unable to book via the app, but received a phone call for the covid booster earlier this week. They weren't offered the flu jab.


----------



## Lynn R

kaipa said:


> I thought it was combined with the booster?


My husband and I had our flu jabs at the beginning of November. He was told at his appointment that he could not have his booster jab at the same time as it would be another couple of weeks before the six-month period since his second Covid jab was up. At that time I wasn't eligible for the Covid booster as they hadn't extended them to the under 70 age group.

Megsmum, we made our flu jab appointments (in Andalucia) via the ClicSalud app after having seen announcements in the press of the date they would be available from.


----------



## Megsmum

Thanks. Had my booster in September husband has his next week, I'll ask the nurse about it


----------



## Overandout

Alcalaina said:


> Had my booster this morning at the mobile unit, no appointment necessary, available to anyone over 60 on presentation of DNI/TIE. They got through the queue of around a hundred people in just over half an hour - primary school kids had their turn this afternoon. Once again, hats off to the Andalucía health service.
> 
> Does anyone know if the third shot will automatically appear on the vaccine certificate?


Subsequent vaccinations will appear on the digital certificate if you had the digital certificate for the original doses.

I had the booster a few weeks ago and it was on the digital certificate the same day.

But a friend in Madrid only had the paper certificate for the initial doses (she didn't have the app on her phone for the digital version) and she has now, after the booster, decided to get the digital cert on the app but only the booster appears as if it was the first dose (it still shows here as not having the "pauta completa"). 

She has been to the health center once already and they assured her it would be corrected in 48 hours, but it was not and she is still struggling to get it corrected.


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## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> I thought it was combined with the booster?



I think, that's the idea for the future.


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## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> Had my booster this morning at the mobile unit, no appointment necessary, available to anyone over 60 on presentation of DNI/TIE. They got through the queue of around a hundred people in just over half an hour - primary school kids had their turn this afternoon. Once again, hats off to the Andalucía health service.
> 
> Does anyone know if the third shot will automatically appear on the vaccine certificate?


Are they vaccinating the children in school?


That's how they're doing it here in the Valencia region. I saw on the local news that 80% of parents have given permission for their children to be vaccinated.


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## Overandout

My youngest will be vaccinated in a vaccination centre on Sunday, no school vaccines in Madrid.


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## Italia-Mx

xabiaxica said:


> Are they vaccinating the children in school?
> 
> 
> That's how they're doing it here in the Valencia region. I saw on the local news that 80% of parents have given permission for their children to be vaccinated.


They seem to like to use that number -- 80% -- but there is really no proof at all that this is accurate. And if all groups are already at 80% what happened to herd immunity which was supposed to happen at about 70% or was herd immunity just another lie?


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## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> I thought it was combined with the booster?


No, it's not


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> No, it's not


That's right. It isn't combined into one jab, but here at least, you can have both jabs at the same time.


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## Alcalaina

Megsmum said:


> Anyone been offered flu jab ?


We had ours in October. I think they only do it for a limited period.


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## timwip

About two or three weeks ago, booster shots became available to my age group in the Principality. Supposedly, we are supposed to wait until we are called in for an appointment. Never got a call. For the past week, I have been e-mailing and calling the address and number the local newspaper instructed to get an appointment-Nada. This morning I walked down to the vaccination unit of the regional hospital and waited in line. When I got to the registration, they asked me for my appointment number. I told her I did not have an appointment but my age group was being vaccinated. She asked me for my DNI and I handed her my TIE. She looked at my age and registered me and told me to go to booth 10. Went there and got my Moderna jab. In and out in 45 minutes. 

I know each community does things differently but I was able to walk in and get the jab in Asturias. It might work for others.


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## number9

can I asked your age and whether the 6 month interval was reached/ passed since your last jab?


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## snikpoh

My wife has just had her booster - first two were pfizer but this was a HALF dose of moderna.

Any one else just had a half dose?


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## timwip

snikpoh said:


> My wife has just had her booster - first two were pfizer but this was a HALF dose of moderna.
> 
> Any one else just had a half dose?


Our first two were Pfizers and just got the half dose of Moderna. The half dose of Moderna is that is recommended for the booster. I was glad to get the Moderna. Yesterday, Moderna submitted data to the CDC showing that Moderna is effective with the Omicron variant.


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## xabiaxica

number9 said:


> can I asked your age and whether the 6 month interval was reached/ passed since your last jab?


Who are you asking?


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## number9

xabiaxica said:


> Who are you asking?


Anyone really. I assume that people being boosted are still in the 60+ age group but as people rarely post their age it's just that, an assumption.

My 6 month interval is up December 25th and I'm in my 50's


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## Megsmum

number9 said:


> Anyone really. I assume that people being boosted are still in the 60+ age group but as people rarely post their age it's just that, an assumption.
> 
> My 6 month interval is up December 25th and I'm in my 50's


Husband 63 has his next Tuesday


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## snikpoh

number9 said:


> Anyone really. I assume that people being boosted are still in the 60+ age group but as people rarely post their age it's just that, an assumption.
> 
> My 6 month interval is up December 25th and I'm in my 50's



Sshhhhh - wife is 60 and had hers yesterday. I'm 63 and have mine tonight (province of Valencia)


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## Lynn R

I'm 65 and had mine on 1st December (Andalucia). A friend who is in her mid 50s told me yesterday that she can't yet make an appointment via either of the Andalucian health service apps because they haven't reached her age group yet.


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## stevesainty

I am 65, 2 AZ, got appointment from local salud for 29 December, 6 months and 1 day since my second dose. Booster will be Pfizer.


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## xabiaxica

stevesainty said:


> I am 65, 2 AZ, got appointment from local salud for 29 December, 6 months and 1 day since my second dose. Booster will be Pfizer.


I'm younger  

My booster is tomorrow. I could have had it a few weeks ago, but I've waited until I have some time off. 

I had AZ for the first two & have opted for Pfizer for my booster.


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