# carte de séjour for 18-year-old, or simply how to bypass a bureaucratic nightmare



## jrmaanda

I am British, live in the Ariege and have a 10-year carte de séjour, but my 18-year-old son had no need of one until this year. The instructions on the website of the Prefecture of Foix, which alone could issue one, are to fill in an online form requesting a rendez-vous to present the necessary documents. An automated reply came saying a real reply would follow within five days. Nothing did. A month has passed. I've tried four times and the same thing happens. Yesterday, I telephoned and ran into the worst bureaucrat I've encountered in my life (and that's saying a lot), a woman who kept reiterating ad infinitum that I must fill in their online form, completely ignoring my repeated statement that I had already done so and had an acknowledgement of that. The prefecture is permanently closed except by appointment, so there is no other means of communication.

Does my son really have to go to London to obtain a long-stay visa (presumably two visits and hellish paperwork) or can anyone tell me of any way round this? Is there somewhere higher up one to whom one can complain about being obstructed in this way?


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## Bevdeforges

I take it that your son was not resident in France immediately prior to the Brexit cut off date and/or is not resident in France currently. If this is the case then he will indeed have to obtain a visa - and visas can only be obtained through a French consulate (by definition outside of France). 

If he has been living in France with you all this time and simply missed the date for applying for a carte de séjour (i.e. residence permit) under the Withdrawal Agreement, he'll probably have to go the visa route unless there have been further extensions to the filing deadline for those already resident at the end of 2020. (Last deadline extension I recall was sometime in late 2021 - but the folks here may know if there have been any further extensions.)

The visa will depend on what your son's status is - student (will need to be enrolled in a program), employed (in which case it's the employer who must make the arrangements for work authorization) or some other status (only one that jumps to mind here is that he is dependent on you due to his health condition, but there may be others).


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## BackinFrance

I suspect that's not correct Bev, the WA I believe has specific clauses about minor children not living permanently in France or studying in another country and how to proceed when they turn 18,


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## BackinFrance

jrmaanda said:


> I am British, live in the Ariege and have a 10-year carte de séjour, but my 18-year-old son had no need of one until this year. The instructions on the website of the Prefecture of Foix, which alone could issue one, are to fill in an online form requesting a rendez-vous to present the necessary documents. An automated reply came saying a real reply would follow within five days. Nothing did. A month has passed. I've tried four times and the same thing happens. Yesterday, I telephoned and ran into the worst bureaucrat I've encountered in my life (and that's saying a lot), a woman who kept reiterating ad infinitum that I must fill in their online form, completely ignoring my repeated statement that I had already done so and had an acknowledgement of that. The prefecture is permanently closed except by appointment, so there is no other means of communication.
> 
> Does my son really have to go to London to obtain a long-stay visa (presumably two visits and hellish paperwork) or can anyone tell me of any way round this? Is there somewhere higher up one to whom one can complain about being obstructed in this way?


I am surprised your Préfecture is still closed to the public, but I would think they have a main email address, or at least an online form where you could advise them that you have been encountering IT problems and that your online form seems to have disappeared into the ether despite the fact that you have received an acknowledgment.


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## BackinFrance

BackinFrance said:


> I suspect that's not correct Bev, the WA I believe has specific clauses about minor children not living permanently in France or studying in another country and how to proceed when they turn 18,


Definitely not correct, under the WA children are covered by the parent's WA CDS until they turn 18 at which point they apply for and are entitled to their own WA CDS.


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## BackinFrance

BackinFrance said:


> I am surprised your Préfecture is still closed to the public, but I would think they have a main email address, or at least an online form where you could advise them that you have been encountering IT problems and that your online form seems to have disappeared into the ether despite the fact that you have received an acknowledgment.


They do indeed have an email address, but I can't copy it from my phone.


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## Bevdeforges

BackinFrance said:


> I suspect that's not correct Bev, the WA I believe has specific clauses about minor children not living permanently in France or studying in another country and how to proceed when they turn 18,


In any event, it does depend on the minor child's status - immediately before Brexit and since the final cut off date. If the child was not living with the parent resident in France, that will have an effect (custody and all that good stuff). Or, if the child is still attached to the household in France, but attending school in the UK, then a different set of rules applies. We really don't have enough information to know what the precise situation is. I only wonder why the "need" for a carte de séjour has only come up now rather than sometime during 2021 (which was something of a transition year).


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## BackinFrance

Bevdeforges said:


> In any event, it does depend on the minor child's status - immediately before Brexit and since the final cut off date. If the child was not living with the parent resident in France, that will have an effect (custody and all that good stuff). Or, if the child is still attached to the household in France, but attending school in the UK, then a different set of rules applies. We really don't have enough information to know what the precise situation is. I only wonder why the "need" for a carte de séjour has only come up now rather than sometime during 2021 (which was something of a transition year).


Under the WA minor children of a parent who holds a WA CDS do not need, nor can they have, a WA CDS, but when they turn 18 they must apply for one irrespective of where they live and that right is preserved. The OP has a 19 year card. The child is now 18. The child does not have to return to the UK to apply for the WA CDS but now has to apply for one.


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## jrmaanda

Bevedeforges, I think you have misunderstood my son's position. As far as I know, there is no question at all about his entitlement to a carte de séjour. He did not attempt to get one until he reached 18 (two months ago) because he had no need of one as a minor living with resident parents. Now he should have this one year following his 18th birthday to obtain one on the basis of having been resident in France since birth. My post was not at all a query about his entitlement, but rather what to do when faced with mindless bureaucratic obstructionism - the failure of the prefecture in Foix to act on an online application made in the manner demanded and the refusal of its telephone receptionist to offer a remedy. I have in addition tried emailing the prefecture: the result is always an automated reply telling me to fill in their online form requesting a rendez-vous, which I've already done.

What I now badly need is to be told what one can do when one is being blocked from one's entitlement by bureaucratic disfunction on the part of a prefecture.


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## BackinFrance

They are open from 8.30am to 11.00am according to their website. I suggest you go in and ask them for an appointment.


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## jrmaanda

Thank you so much, BackinFrance, but sadly this is not so. I know both from having attempted to visited the Foix prefecture a few months ago, and from having it robustly confirmed on the telephone two days ago that the prefecture is only ever open _by appointment_. One can try to sneak in by following rapidly behind someone else for whom the gate has been opened on the basis of an appointment, but one will simply run into a receptionist who will tell one that one has to make an appointment online.


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## BackinFrance

Send them a letter with accusé de réception. Set out what has occurred and attach the acknowledgement you originally received.


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## Bevdeforges

jrmaanda said:


> My post was not at all a query about his entitlement, but rather what to do when faced with mindless bureaucratic obstructionism - the failure of the prefecture in Foix to act on an online application made in the manner demanded and the refusal of its telephone receptionist to offer a remedy.


To be perfectly honest about it, there normally isn't an established way to deal with "mindless bureaucratic obstructionism" in France - not for expats and not for the local natives. One possible approach would be to talk to your local mairie to explain your dilemma and your thwarted efforts so far. They often have "alternative routes" to the officials at the departemental level and they can sometimes contact the prefecture for you to ask questions or secure appointments or get detail regarding procedures. One of the reasons we often recommend developing a relationship with the local mairie and the folks who work there.


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## jrmaanda

Thank you very much BackinFrance and BevdeForges, those are both good ideas which I'll try out.


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## EuroTrash

I can imagine your frustration.
Only thing I can think of - which doesn't help - is that the WA entitlements are still outside the box as far as the préfecture's systems are concerned, causing the online form to be spat out because they don't recognise what you are asking for.
I suppose you could try filling it in with fictitious information that will tick one of their boxes and get through to the processing stage, just to get an appointment, but then it would depend very much on how flexible the person is that you see.
However I agree that the mairie is your best route but you could maybe try the above strategem in parallel, in case that is what's happening.


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## Poloss

The défenseur des droits service exists for when you have problems with govt administrations.
Start first with the service d'état civil at your mairie who should be able to intercede for you.


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## Nomoss

I suggest you try your nearest France Services office. One has recently been opened close to us, and is apparently very helpful in sorting out administrative problems.
France services : les services publics près de chez vous !


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## jrmaanda

That looks superb, exactly what I need, Nomoss. Thank you so much.


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## BackinFrance

No idea why I forgot about France Services, given I have recommended them elsewhere on this forum.


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## vianina

Writing a registered letter to the Prefet with a concise description of the situation and a reference to the relevant laws was what worked in my son's case, which was essentially the same.


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## jrmaanda

Thank you. Can you tell me precisely how you addressed your letter so that it reached the prefect, rather than being effectively binned by the same receptionist?


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## vianina

jrmaanda said:


> Thank you. Can you tell me precisely how you addressed your letter so that it reached the prefect, rather than being effectively binned by the same receptionist?


It was a year ago, but as I recall I took a model for a recours gracieux from the internet, incorporated the details of our case, cited the articles of the relevant law (the French decree on application of the WA), addressed it à l’attention de M. le Préfet - Recours gracieux. And sent it by LRAR, which should in itself be enough to stop the receptionist binning it. Never got a reply from the prefect, obviously, but within a week we had an invitation to an appointment to give fingerprints. Be polite but insistent and you will get there. If you can’t find a satisfactory model, message me and I’ll go back to my records, but you’d still need to adapt it to your case.


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## vianina

vianina said:


> It was a year ago, but as I recall I took a model for a recours gracieux from the internet, incorporated the details of our case, cited the articles of the relevant law (the French decree on application of the WA), addressed it à l’attention de M. le Préfet - Recours gracieux. And sent it by LRAR, which should in itself be enough to stop the receptionist binning it. Never got a reply from the prefect, obviously, but within a week we had an invitation to an appointment to give fingerprints. Be polite but insistent and you will get there. If you can’t find a satisfactory model, message me and I’ll go back to my records, but you’d still need to adapt it to your case.


Oh, and duplicated the LRAR with an email marked “par LRAR et courriel” to encourage them to swing the machine into action a bit faster.


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## ccm47

I wonder if the prefecture is using the same booking system as was used for booking COVID. vaccinations?
I spent a couple of weeks with "no appointments available" messages. Then I logged in at 07.15 when there were plenty to choose from, by 08.00 they'd all been taken! A case of demand exceeding availability but it would explain the receptionist's attitude as she only sees those who have been successful in getting an appointment.


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## jrmaanda

My 18-year-old's troubles getting the WA carte de séjour he is entitled to have taken a nightmarish turn. I wonder if anyone here can give me the legal information that is now needed with desperate urgency.

After four months wait, he was finally granted a rendez-vous at the Prefecture of the Ariege to present his dossier and give his thumbprints. Instead of glimpsing at the dossier, the ferocious woman who received us launched into an immediate attack on him for speaking inadequate French. I explained he had been going to boarding-school in England. She said that meant he was ineligible. The most she eventually offered was that he could make a postal application for "Admission exceptionelle au Séjour", requiring a host of new document including proof of "mastership of the French language, written and oral".

I must explain that the desperate urgency to all this is that he has accepted and paid 9000+ euros for a place at university in Paris starting on 5 September. By then, he will have long used up the three months he can legally stay in France without a carte de séjour. He is terrified of being stuck as an illegal immigrant unable to leave the country without being banned from coming home again, and he simply does not know what to do. On top of that, he is finding it impossible to book his student accomodation without a carte de séjour.

After many days of frantic research, the only effective recourse we've been able to find is the "défenseur des droits" appointed by the Interior Ministry to help people with the Préfecture. We have just seen him and shown him the clear statement on https://accueil.contacts-demarches....ns-brexit-et-droit-au-sejour-janvier-2021.pdf that "La réalisation d'études à l'étranger ne constitue pas un obstacle à l'obtention d'un titre de séjour dès qu'ils continuent à détenir leur résidence habituelle en France", which I think proves the Préfecture wrong. He said he would try to help, but first he would have to investigate the law this should be based on. I fear he is going to be slow when every day now counts.

So, my specific question is, can anyone please refer me to whatever law in the civil or whatever code is pertinent that says a child's residency status depends on his parents' and not on where he goes to school? Or any other fast solution?


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## vianina

Accueil


Le site officiel de saisine des services de l’État par voie électronique.




invite.contacts-demarches.interieur.gouv.fr





It's right there: child of WA beneficiary.


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## vianina

Go to the Remain in France Together FB group and read what Justine Wallington wrote on 21 July in response to a poster with a fairly similar situation: 
"Your daughter does not require a visa and must not try to get one or it'll muddle her situation in the computer system for foreigners. She must be noted as being under Article 50 TUE. I assume you have already asked for a WARP? If not do that right away! See this link " présenter leurs demandes de titre de séjour directement aux guichets des préfectures ou des sous-préfectures dont ils dépendent." https://invite.contacts-demarches.interieur.gouv.fr/...
I'd suggest the following options if you continue to have issues:
LETTER - Send a registered letter to your préfecture. https://www.laposte.fr/.../envoi-courrier-lettre-recommandee
MINISTRY of INTERIOR - Send an email here (French Ministry of Interior):
[email protected]
outline the problem briefly, your card numbers and préfecture (preferably written in French). Use this free tool if you need help writing in French https://www.deepl.com/en/translator
Consider using the Interior Ministry contact form https://www.interieur.gouv.fr/.../Ecrire-au-ministre-de-l...
FRANCE SERVICES
Use France Services (free) to help ease your communication with your préfecture:
https://www.cohesion-territoires.gouv.fr/france-services
OMBUDSMAN - Consider contacting the ombudsman/mediator (Défenseur des Droits) (free service):
https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F13158
EMBASSY
The Embassy is eager to ensure any misapplication of the Withdrawal Agreement is addressed by the relevant French authorities and continue their regular engagement with the officials responsible in the French government. Although the Embassy cannot guarantee the resolution of individual cases, they may be able to give you suggestions. You may also want to consider using their contact form and if you get a standard reply back within this reply there should be another link (usually highlighted) to inform the consular team: https://www.contact-embassy.service.gov.uk/?country=France&post=British%20Embassy%20Paris%20
YOUR EUROPE - Get a free legal opinion from Your Europe:
https://europa.eu/youreurope/advice/index_en.htm
The European Commission provides information on enforcing citizens’ rights in EU countries, and what to do if your rights are not respected. Its assistance service provides advice on your rights in the EU country where you live and how to resolve issues with or submit a complaint about a public body regarding your rights. Your Europe typically replies very quickly and they monitor these issues.
RIFT
If all the above don't work for you I can send this problem to the Embassy/Consulate through the RIFT email system. To do this I'd need the following filled in and sent to the RIFT official email so the information is in a format easier to work and so those involved can contact you and temporarily hold these personal details with your consent (GDPR). The RIFT email is [email protected] and ping me if you send it as I don't have the RIFT email open all the time.
Consent to share information with Embassy (GDPR) - yes/no? xxx
Case summary for First Name/Last Name: xxxxx
Préfecture : xxxx
Nationality: xxxxx.
Born xx/xx/xx
Address:
Xxxx
Xxxx
Tel: xx xx xx xx xx
Mobile : xxxxx
email address: xxxxx
Existing CdS: If already held (by parents) - card number and name
Date of arrival in France: xx/xx/xxxx
Overview:
Action taken so far (brief bullet points):"


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## Nomoss

Nomoss said:


> I suggest you try your nearest France Services office. One has recently been opened close to us, and is apparently very helpful in sorting out administrative problems.
> France services : les services publics près de chez vous !


Was France Services no help, then?


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## jrmaanda

Hello Vianina,

Thank you so much for helping me, I can't tell you how much of a relief it is to find someone taking an interest in my urgent problem as advised by you:

I have written the following email <snip> as you suggested, I'm letting you know, in view of your kind offer to draw it to their attention:

_Dear sir/Madam_

_Please excuse a previous incomplete email accidentally sent. I've been advised to write to you about a desperately urgent problem I'm having obtaining a WA carte de sejour. My parents and I are British I've lived in France since I was a baby, my parents obtained WA cartes de sejour in 2021, I was then 17. Just after my 18th birthday on 28 February, I started applying for my WA carte de sejour.

After four months wait, I was finally granted a rendez-vous at the Prefecture of the Ariege to present my dossier and give my thumbprints. Instead of glimpsing at the dossier, the woman who received us launched into an immediate attack on me for speaking inadequate French. My father explained I had been going to boarding-school in England. She said that meant I was ineligible. The most she eventually offered was that I could make a postal application for "Admission exceptionelle au Séjour", requiring a host of new documents including proof of "mastership of the French language, written and oral".

I must explain that the desperate urgency to all this is that I accepted and paid 9000+ euros for a place at university in Paris starting on 5 September. By then, I will have long used up the three months I can legally stay in France without a carte de séjour. I am terrified of being stuck as an illegal immigrant unable to leave the country without being banned from coming home again, and I simply do not know what to do. On top of that, I am finding it impossible to book my student accomodation without a carte de séjour.

I have been advised to give you the following brief summary:

I consent to share information with Embassy (GDPR) _
<snip>

I am pinging this to you now as suggested. I'm also pursuing the other leads you kindly gave me.

Yours most gratefully,
<snip>


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## BackinFrance

You absolutely should not post a private email address on this forum, which is public, and preferably not your son's name either.


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## BackinFrance

BackinFrance said:


> You absolutely should not post a private email address on this forum, which is public, and preferably not your son's name either.


This is serious because it makes that anyone at all in the whole world who has the internet can see your son's email address and at the very least send emails to 
I have asked for the information to be received, but our moderators are all unpaid volunteers and only have limited time to devote to the forum.

I appreciate that you are stressed, but you need to be careful that you do not make things even worse for your son.

That said, I wish you well in your endeavors.


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## Bevdeforges

Folks, I'm sorry I got to this a little late - it has been a busy day. But let me remind everyone here once again that you should NEVER post personal identification information in a public forum on the Internet. It's part of the reason we all have "forum names" - and it's amazing what people can do with even just a little personal data that they get hold of on a public forum. I'd tend to advise against posting any sort of un-redacted text of letters or complaint or criticism but specifically do NOT include names (your own or other people), addresses, any sort of personal contact information (phone, e-mail address, etc.), birthdates, birth places, etc. etc. 

Those of us who moderate the forums will try to remove this sort of information, but we are here on a volunteer basis and may not turn up online for several hours. And that sort of information that lingers for hours or days before it can be removed can cause lots of trouble for those whose personal data is compromised. Please think security when posting anything that might be considered personal information. And if your personal data is compromised, you should consider changing passwords on all your sensitive accounts online.


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## jrmaanda

Nomoss,
Yes, I did try France Service and they were indeed very helpful. It was indirectly thanks to them that I found the "défenseur des droits", and of course thanks to you that I found France Service. I'm most grateful. Unfortunately, I feel we've now exhausted what France Services could do, and my son and I are terribly worried that the défenseur, working with the Préfecture only one day a week, is not going to sort this out in time, despite decency and good will. But if anyone can tell me the basis in French law for a child's residency not being affected by schooling abroad, he could act faster.


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## jrmaanda

BevdeFrance and Backin France,
I'm sorry to have offended inadvertently against your recommended procedure, and I fully take your point.


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## vianina

jrmaanda said:


> Hello Vianina,
> 
> Thank you so much for helping me, I can't tell you how much of a relief it is to find someone taking an interest in my urgent problem as advised by you:
> 
> I have written the following email <snip> as you suggested, I'm letting you know, in view of your kind offer to draw it to their attention:
> 
> _Dear sir/Madam_
> 
> _Please excuse a previous incomplete email accidentally sent. I've been advised to write to you about a desperately urgent problem I'm having obtaining a WA carte de sejour. My parents and I are British I've lived in France since I was a baby, my parents obtained WA cartes de sejour in 2021, I was then 17. Just after my 18th birthday on 28 February, I started applying for my WA carte de sejour.
> 
> After four months wait, I was finally granted a rendez-vous at the Prefecture of the Ariege to present my dossier and give my thumbprints. Instead of glimpsing at the dossier, the woman who received us launched into an immediate attack on me for speaking inadequate French. My father explained I had been going to boarding-school in England. She said that meant I was ineligible. The most she eventually offered was that I could make a postal application for "Admission exceptionelle au Séjour", requiring a host of new documents including proof of "mastership of the French language, written and oral".
> 
> I must explain that the desperate urgency to all this is that I accepted and paid 9000+ euros for a place at university in Paris starting on 5 September. By then, I will have long used up the three months I can legally stay in France without a carte de séjour. I am terrified of being stuck as an illegal immigrant unable to leave the country without being banned from coming home again, and I simply do not know what to do. On top of that, I am finding it impossible to book my student accomodation without a carte de séjour.
> 
> I have been advised to give you the following brief summary:
> 
> I consent to share information with Embassy (GDPR) _
> <snip>
> 
> I am pinging this to you now as suggested. I'm also pursuing the other leads you kindly gave me.
> 
> Yours most gratefully,
> <snip>


Hello jrmaanda, thank you for your message but the person who can draw it to anyone's attention is 


jrmaanda said:


> Hello Vianina,
> 
> Thank you so much for helping me, I can't tell you how much of a relief it is to find someone taking an interest in my urgent problem as advised by you:
> 
> I have written the following email <snip> as you suggested, I'm letting you know, in view of your kind offer to draw it to their attention:
> 
> _Dear sir/Madam_
> 
> _Please excuse a previous incomplete email accidentally sent. I've been advised to write to you about a desperately urgent problem I'm having obtaining a WA carte de sejour. My parents and I are British I've lived in France since I was a baby, my parents obtained WA cartes de sejour in 2021, I was then 17. Just after my 18th birthday on 28 February, I started applying for my WA carte de sejour.
> 
> After four months wait, I was finally granted a rendez-vous at the Prefecture of the Ariege to present my dossier and give my thumbprints. Instead of glimpsing at the dossier, the woman who received us launched into an immediate attack on me for speaking inadequate French. My father explained I had been going to boarding-school in England. She said that meant I was ineligible. The most she eventually offered was that I could make a postal application for "Admission exceptionelle au Séjour", requiring a host of new documents including proof of "mastership of the French language, written and oral".
> 
> I must explain that the desperate urgency to all this is that I accepted and paid 9000+ euros for a place at university in Paris starting on 5 September. By then, I will have long used up the three months I can legally stay in France without a carte de séjour. I am terrified of being stuck as an illegal immigrant unable to leave the country without being banned from coming home again, and I simply do not know what to do. On top of that, I am finding it impossible to book my student accomodation without a carte de séjour.
> 
> I have been advised to give you the following brief summary:
> 
> I consent to share information with Embassy (GDPR) _
> <snip>
> 
> I am pinging this to you now as suggested. I'm also pursuing the other leads you kindly gave me.
> 
> Yours most gratefully,
> <snip>


Hi jrmaanda, thanks but I was merely quoting the text produced by Justine Wallington on the Remain in France Together FB page. She appears to be the person who has the contacts and can pass the info on to the right places. It would be a good idea to visit/join that group and make yourself known there as I think they will be able to help you.


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## jrmaanda

Vianina,
I've just tried to submit an application for help to https://europa.eu/youreurope/advice/index_en.htm as it sounded so helpful from what you said, but it led me to a box on nationality where the only option was to fill in an _existing_ EU country and even though on the previous page it said it would help any EU residents '*non-Europeans* – if they are family members of an EU national or resident in an EU country' , please can you tell me what I'm doing wrong? Or is this resource no longer able to us as british?


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## Bevdeforges

OK, by EU standards, an 18 year old is considered an adult. And I guess that your son's situation may be one of those things that is considered to fall under "national law" or possibly under the WA (withdrawal agreement). In any event, just because a crabby receptionist gave you a hard time (or gave you doubtful information) doesn't mean that that is the end of things.

As an adult, perhaps your son should pay a visit to the local mairie to inquire about what he can or should do now. I'm not at all familiar with the terms of the WA, but I do know it was pretty confusing - especially for those who "just missed" the deadline for the initial applications for a carte de séjour by Brits who have been living for a while here in France. (And having just turned 18 a few months "too late" could be the spanner in the works.) Add to that, the application and processing queues for these sorts of vital administrative registrations have been backed up for months now.

The mairie may have information or they may have their own ways to contact the prefecture to inquire about what to do now. Just be sure to go with asking for help/guidance - not with the idea of filing a complaint. The only caveat here is that we're coming into the month of August now and there is a very real possibility that they will ask you to hold off until September and the Rentrée. Or maybe not.


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## ALKB

jrmaanda said:


> I explained he had been going to boarding-school in England.


Did he turn 18 while in boarding school in the UK or after completing his schooling while staying with you in France?


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## Nomoss

I was about to suggest SOLVIT, who have helped me in the past, although in a rather limited way, but thanks to Bojo I find they can no longer help no-EU folk. SOLVIT
Maybe the fact that Your Europe Advice works closely with SOLVIT has affected their ability to help us outcasts.


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## jrmaanda

ALKB, He turned 18 on 29 February, started requesting a carte de séjour in March (while at home), but did not finish boarding-school in England until 2 July.

Nomoss, Yes we tried Sovit today, and found as you say. Some of the other resources mentioned by Vianina have also disappeared.


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## BackinFrance

Send a formal letter to the Prefect (not simply the Préfecture) registered with accusé de réception, politely setting out the situation and asking what is the best way forward given your son's rights under the WA Agreement..

I am sure I have previously given you this advice. 

Knowledge of French to I think A1 level might be an issue as it appears it is a requirement that is currently being added to all CDS/TDS applications though surely your son could manage that. But then again it may not be an issue.

IIRC your son does have preserved rights under the WA Agreement. Look up the relevant section and attach a copy to your letter. 

Unlike other organisations, your Prefect has the ability to act quickly should he or she deem it appropriate.


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## BackinFrance

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/FR/TXT/?qid=1580206007232&uri=CELEX%3A12019W/TXT%2802%29


You will find the link to the WA Agreement above. Make sure you download a version in French.


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## vianina

jrmaanda said:


> Vianina,
> I've just tried to submit an application for help to https://europa.eu/youreurope/advice/index_en.htm as it sounded so helpful from what you said, but it led me to a box on nationality where the only option was to fill in an _existing_ EU country and even though on the previous page it said it would help any EU residents '*non-Europeans* – if they are family members of an EU national or resident in an EU country' , please can you tell me what I'm doing wrong? Or is this resource no longer able to us as british?


All of the info I gave you was in quote marks from the Remain in France Together FB group, which may be able to advise you.


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## jrmaanda

My son's nightmare continues unresolved, and we are now resting almost all our hopes of a way out of it on the British Embassy. Meanwhile things have got worse for him in that the student accomodation available on the Studapart website he was recommended by his university has almost dried up and he cannot book what is left without a carte de séjour.

So we are wondering if anyone can help with any information about student accomodation in Paris apart from studapart? We don't know anything about the possibilities. All he wants is to be with other students his age not too far out from central Paris.


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## Bevdeforges

It may depend on your son's course of study, but he could try contacting Sciences Accueil, which organizes student housing mostly in the Saclay area (i.e. Orsay and surrounding towns) - but they do have student housing in Paris. It's probably best if he is in a scientific program of some sort, but they may be able to help regardless. Here is the contact point for their housing assistance program: Habitat - Science Accueil


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## jrmaanda

Many thanks. Unfortunately, he's studying animation (at L'Atelier de Sevres). Besides any formal bodies like that, he would also be very interested if there were private houses etc offering boarding only to students. Can anyone tell me if this exists in Paris?


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## Bevdeforges

He can always try FUSAC - Archives des classified ads Paris - FUSAC Paris Classifieds - which is a classified ad site for Paris mostly in English. It has long been used by the expat community in and around Paris and contains lots of "student ads" though it certainly isn't limited to students.


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## jrmaanda

My 18-year-old has now lost three of the six weeks he had to sort out the nightmare that arose when an aggressive bureaucrat denied him his right to a carte de séjour. His position has become so desperate that he is thinking of cutting his losses (a place at a good university in Paris studying his passion, 9000+ euros already paid to it, his aspirations to live in France like his parents). The way to do this would be to accept a much less interesting place at a British university in the little time left before it is too late. The danger if he carries on is that our prefecture will never give him his carte de séjour, he will have to abort his studies due to being an illegal immigrant, he could be banned from returning home, and he will be stranded with nowhere to live and no means of advancing his education in the coming academic year.

Is there anyone else here who has simply given up on unquestionable rights of residence because a prefecture has made their position appear impossible? I would be awfully glad to hear from anyone who has been in a similar dilemma.

Here is what we’ve already tried without getting anywhere:

1. France Services. They tried hard for us, tried to intervene, found us contacts, but say they can do no more.

2. A défenseur des droits, a nice man working one day a week in our prefecture, who affirmed after investigation that he was sure of my son’s right to a CdS, said he would try to remedy things in the next few days, but has since disappeared on holiday. Still a hope if only we weren’t running out of time so fast.

3. The British embassy. Not only have we contacted it directly, but Justine of the Facebook group ”Together in France” (who is also sure of my son’s right) has been immensely kind and helpful in trying to remedy things through her contact there. Despite that, and apart from one automated message, we haven’t heard a whisper from them in three weeks and do not even know if a human has glanced at our plea for help. Again, still a hope if only we weren’t running out of time so fast.

4. The Prefect, to whom my son addressed a letter “recommandé avec avis de reception”. Total silence, so very likely thrown in the bin.

5. The Interior Ministry, who sent a human reply eleven days ago that they were forwarding my son’s enquiry to the “service compétent”, since when silence.

6. The European Commission, which says it can no longer help British citizens except through SOLVIT.

7. SOLVIT for whose help British citizens are no longer eligible.

We’re so desperate now that we’ve been wondering if, as a last resort, there’s a slight chance we might be able to kick up a stink by trying to interest a British tabloid in our story as a sort of Brexit-type horror story, but it’s probably not dramatic enough, is it?

Any ideas at all would be most welcome. We are worn down with stress.


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## vianina

jrmaanda said:


> My 18-year-old has now lost three of the six weeks he had to sort out the nightmare that arose when an aggressive bureaucrat denied him his right to a carte de séjour. His position has become so desperate that he is thinking of cutting his losses (a place at a good university in Paris studying his passion, 9000+ euros already paid to it, his aspirations to live in France like his parents). The way to do this would be to accept a much less interesting place at a British university in the little time left before it is too late. The danger if he carries on is that our prefecture will never give him his carte de séjour, he will have to abort his studies due to being an illegal immigrant, he could be banned from returning home, and he will be stranded with nowhere to live and no means of advancing his education in the coming academic year.
> 
> Is there anyone else here who has simply given up on unquestionable rights of residence because a prefecture has made their position appear impossible? I would be awfully glad to hear from anyone who has been in a similar dilemma.
> 
> Here is what we’ve already tried without getting anywhere:
> 
> 1. France Services. They tried hard for us, tried to intervene, found us contacts, but say they can do no more.
> 
> 2. A défenseur des droits, a nice man working one day a week in our prefecture, who affirmed after investigation that he was sure of my son’s right to a CdS, said he would try to remedy things in the next few days, but has since disappeared on holiday. Still a hope if only we weren’t running out of time so fast.
> 
> 3. The British embassy. Not only have we contacted it directly, but Justine of the Facebook group ”Together in France” (who is also sure of my son’s right) has been immensely kind and helpful in trying to remedy things through her contact there. Despite that, and apart from one automated message, we haven’t heard a whisper from them in three weeks and do not even know if a human has glanced at our plea for help. Again, still a hope if only we weren’t running out of time so fast.
> 
> 4. The Prefect, to whom my son addressed a letter “recommandé avec avis de reception”. Total silence, so very likely thrown in the bin.
> 
> 5. The Interior Ministry, who sent a human reply eleven days ago that they were forwarding my son’s enquiry to the “service compétent”, since when silence.
> 
> 6. The European Commission, which says it can no longer help British citizens except through SOLVIT.
> 
> 7. SOLVIT for whose help British citizens are no longer eligible.
> 
> We’re so desperate now that we’ve been wondering if, as a last resort, there’s a slight chance we might be able to kick up a stink by trying to interest a British tabloid in our story as a sort of Brexit-type horror story, but it’s probably not dramatic enough, is it?
> 
> Any ideas at all would be most welcome. We are worn down with stress.


In your son's situation, I would consider postponing the start of university by one year. It is an unfortunate thing to have to do, but can be turned into a useful experience. By that time, this problem will be fixed for sure. Your son has rights, but unfortunately the bureaucratic machine is not running at the right speed. 
I have cited the following case elsewhere, so apologies to those who have already seen it. Your son, like the young woman in the case, has permanent residency rights and I don't see how France can wriggle out of issuing his card in due course. Once he has his card in a month or two, he could go off and work somewhere until summer 2023.
Permanent residence (for EU and British citizens) can be maintained with short visits - Franssen Advocaten 

Disclaimer: I have no connection with the legal firm that won the case.


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## Bevdeforges

I don't have a solution to your problem, but it sounds amazingly similar to what my situation was (nearly 30 years ago now). Main difference is that I was a third country national (i.e. non-EU) in the early days of Schengen, when no one had a clue how any of it was supposed to work. And that my claim to remain involved having married a French national here in France. I wonder if the same idiot prefet may have transferred to whatever departement you are currently in. But yes, my husband requested an interview with the Assemblée rep (actually spoke to his "assistant") who wrote a stern letter to the prefet - and nothing ever came of that.

In my case, we just held our ground and things eventually worked out - though I was technically a "sans papier" for nearly two years. Does you son actually have to have a carte de séjour to enroll in his university? (I enrolled in and completed a certificate program at the American University in Paris well before I ever got any response about my carte de séjour.) 

From my experience, I can tell you that they probably won't physically eject your son from the country. (My experience was back in the days of hunger strikes in Paris by the sans papiers and the infamous "Air Juppé" flying brown and black illegals back to where they came from. I hate to put it this way, but I've never heard of the French actually expelling any white, middle-class foreigners from a "developed country" (however defined). Have you contacted the university your son is enrolling in? They may be able to help - or more likely to just ignore the immigration issues until things are resolved.

Like I said, my case was a LONG time ago - but the circumstances sound oh, too familiar. Your best approach may simply be to dig in your heels and wait for the bureaucrats to figure out what they're supposed to be doing.


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## jrmaanda

Bevdeforges, Thank you. No, my son probably doesn't need a CdS to attend his university, though he was asked on application if he had residency rights.

The problem with your suggestion is this. The défenseur des droits told my son he has a choice between bringing in an intermediary such as himself who might be able to get it sorted out in time, or taking the prefecture on in a court case which would take a minimum two years. Nothing at all has been happening for three weeks except that Justine has been trying to interest the British Embassy in the case. With this experience, are we simply to trust that eventually somebody will lift a finger to mediate (without which nothing can happen) or do we start the court case? And if the latter, my son is presumably committing himself to staying put in France without interruption for more than two years, perhaps much more. That is very onerous for a boy who (1) has close family and all his present friends in other countries (for example, spending every Christmas with us and his siblings in Thailand, (2) is only so far committed to university in Paris for one year, and hopes to be able to go on to the best university for animation that will accept him, even if that is not in France.

For if he should once leave France before obtaining a CdS, I don't rate highly his chances of being able to argue with an angry immigration official that he should not be banned from returning.

Vianina, sadly it seems from the foregoing that the wheels of justice turn slower in France than with the Dutch court case you cited.


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## Bevdeforges

OK, it was just a suggestion based on what I went through back when. Just be aware that the French approach to legalities like this can be vastly different from the "Anglo-Saxon" approach to the law and things legal. Hope things work out for you (and I suspect they will). But I do feel your pain while trying to get through the process.


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## GraceS

If I were in your situation, I'd keep trying to make the current university plan work, but I'd also start creating "Plan B." 
Specifically, here's what I'd do:

1. Review the university's contract/tuition payment terms. What are the refund terms? What are the possibilities for delayed attendance--an entire year? A semester?

2. Contact the university. A quick glance at their website shows that they emphasize personal connection with their students, and that they're part of a large education company that owns numerous private schools in France. With that combination, the university may have the sympathy, experience and influence to help resolve matters. And if not, you can confirm any refund/delay terms.

3. Start making a plan for what your son might do instead of this program. As just one example, Montreal is an international movie making and video game production hub, and they're well known for their animation projects. The city has well respected animation universities, like ESMA Montreal, that cost the same as your son's current program, allow students to start not only in September, but also in January and May, and, finally, are feeders for excellent internships and well paying animation jobs in the English/French Montreal work environment. And I can tell you from having spent significant time in Montreal that folks with this background write their own ticket professionally--with options not just in Canada, but also in the US, UK, and Europe.

In short, I think it's time to look elsewhere than French administration for a solution to the immediate university problem. Good luck!


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## Nomoss

Just on an off-chance - have you spoken to the university about his problem?


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## jrmaanda

Nomos, no not yet. We've been a bit hesitant to draw attention to the possibility he might start there without his position having yet been regularised.


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## Nomoss

Is it too late for son to fly back to the UK and get a student visa?

Maybe 'phone the Embassy/Consulate and ask if they can issue a student visa because of administrative delays in getting his residence permit.


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## clothmama

I previously worked for one of the associations that helped Brits with thier CDS applications. I completely agree with the others who say that his rights are protected, even though he was at school in the UK, his 'home' was still with you in France. I had a query very similar and it was confirmed by the MOI. I think you are just unfortunate that this is all happening over the summer where MANY of the people you have been contacting will be on holidays. This should improve starting from Tuesday. As his rights are protected I would advise not panicking, particularly if the uni aren't bothered about seeing his card. I would just say to them that his application is being processed but he has WA rights as he DOES. It will be sorted and will probably go quite quickly when someone puts the incorrect person right. 

Have you reached out to the Consulate in Bordeaux? I think your closest anyway. The consulate there is a charming lady, I had lunch with her at the end of our project and she is very up on it all.

A couple of last points for anyone else in a similar situation it is best to make the application 2 months ahead of an 18th birthday. Secondly if you have a child from 16 starting an apprenticeship they have a special right to get one early. My middle started an apprentiship last year when he was still 15 and couldn't get it but was able to start with a copy of mine and I think an attestation sur l'honneur.


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## jrmaanda

Many thanks for your advice, clothmama. Do you have any contact details for the charming lady in Bordeaux or anyone else in the consulate there that might improve our chances of getting more than the automated reply we are now used to?


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## Nomoss

jrmaanda, since the country of your residence shown by the little flag under your avatar keeps changing, maybe you could clarify whether you live in Germany, France, Indonesia, or Thailand?


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## jrmaanda

Nomoss, I live in France. The only variation in my avatar that I can understand is to Singapore, since I usually use a VPN which is always set to Singapore, and it is the Singaporean flag that I am seeing myself as I look at the screen now. I have never noticed the flags of the other three countries you name and don't have a clue why you've seen them under my name.

I've just had a look at this page on my son's computer (in front of me here in the Ariege and not using a VPN), and it does indeed show the German flag, which is peculiar to say the least.


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## Nomoss

Please excuse the digression. I was a bit puzzled at your flag changing now and again. Just a quirk of the forum software I suppose

What I took for an Indonesian flag was evidently a Singapore one, which is similarly coloured, but has symbols that don't show on such a small scale.
I wondered about Thailand as you said a few posts back that your son joined you there at Christmas, which suggested you were already there, but I suppose you meant you went at the same time as your son.

Today was the first time I noticed a German flag.


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## jrmaanda

Yes, we invariably spend December and January in Thailand, but I've never posted to this forum from there or from Germany.


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## BackinFrance

I don't think the flags on this forum change as you move to or visit another country, but the forum could possibly pick up the flag for the country you are in when you first join unless you override it as a country flag seems to be obligatory. You could try simply manually selecting the French flag.


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## Nomoss

I was about to suggest the same thing.
Click on your avatar at the top right, choose Account Settings from the drop-down list, then select the appropriate Expat to and Expat from countries.


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## Bevdeforges

As far as I can tell, your flag will change if you are using a VPN that you can change to different countries. I, too, saw the German flag - but it sounds like your son may be switching the VPN to Germany for whatever reason. It is now showing Singapore - as are all the flags on all your posts. But I believe the flag changes based on the IP address you are coming from. It may be possible to "set" the flag by adjusting the settings in your Account Settings in the "expat from" and/or "expat to" fields.


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## jrmaanda

I've changed from blank to France on the account settings, and on this page it's still showing as Singapore on my computer (with a VPN) and Germany on my son's (without one). But I'm not troubled by it: I've only been discussing it out of courtesy to Nomoss, who asked me to explain what I cannot.


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## BarbTF

BackinFrance said:


> I don't think the flags on this forum change as you move to or visit another country, but the forum could possibly pick up the flag for the country you are in when you first join unless you override it as a country flag seems to be obligatory. You could try simply manually selecting the French flag.


They do. When I was in France this spring, the French flag showed up on my posts. And I didn't select for it to do that, it just happened.


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## jrmaanda

Many thanks for your advice, clothmama. sorry for asking again but I realised that I didn't specifally reply to your post in the way you would get notified. Do you have any contact details for the charming lady in Bordeaux or anyone else in the consulate there that might improve our chances of getting more than the automated reply we are now used to?


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## ALKB

jrmaanda said:


> Many thanks for your advice, clothmama. sorry for asking again but I realised that I didn't specifally reply to your post in the way you would get notified. Do you have any contact details for the charming lady in Bordeaux or anyone else in the consulate there that might improve our chances of getting more than the automated reply we are now used to?


Have you already tried the general contact info?






British Consulate Bordeaux - GOV.UK







www.gov.uk


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## jrmaanda

Yes, we filled in their online form and promptly got an entirely useless automated reply from the Consular Service Department in London! That is why we are so keen to have real contact details of the consular lady in Bordeaux whom clothmama knows, or indeed of any human anywhere who might help.


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## jrmaanda

Further to the preceding, I've also tried to telephone the consulate in Bordeaux during its claimed opening hours, and though the number begins 05, not 01, one is put straight through to an answering machine in the Paris embassy. That is a pretty good summary of how every attempt I've made has been doomed.


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## Bevdeforges

Don't forget, you're dealing with high vacation season here in France - and most consulate officials and employees get both local and "back home" holidays, with extended vacations during the summer season to return "home" with their families. On their returns, there is generally quite a backlog of paperwork and issues to be cleared.


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## clothmama

jrmaanda said:


> Yes, we filled in their online form and promptly got an entirely useless automated reply from the Consular Service Department in London! That is why we are so keen to have real contact details of the consular lady in Bordeaux whom clothmama knows, or indeed of any human anywhere who might help.


I'm sorry I don't have any contact details for there other than the normal channels. I really think that it is the holidays working against you here. Hopefully things will start getting back to normal. I just looked and it seems that the email address is just a standard one that goes to Paris. Is this the online form you used? Home - Contact an Embassy - GOV.UK


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## jrmaanda

Not quite. It was an online on the same website, but specific to the page on the Bordeaux consulate.


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