# Property Plot size scam ?



## CHRISJK (Jun 26, 2014)

Hi, My wife and I are looking to buy a Villa in the Altea area in Costa Blanca. We have been looking at various properties advertised by Estate Agents in Spain, before we go and view a few of them. One property that we would like to view is Described as having an outside area of 1000 m2 , but it says that only 600 m2 is on the "Paperwork" this surely cant be "above board" is this a Tax Scam ? How would this affect us if we decided to buy this property ?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

CHRISJK said:


> Hi, My wife and I are looking to buy a Villa in the Altea area in Costa Blanca. We have been looking at various properties advertised by Estate Agents in Spain, before we go and view a few of them. One property that we would like to view is Described as having an outside area of 1000 m2 , but it says that only 600 m2 is on the "Paperwork" this surely cant be "above board" is this a Tax Scam ? How would this affect us if we decided to buy this property ?


Maybe the plot is 1000 sqm & the house 400 sqm?

It isn't a tax scam, since the IBI is calculated on the official paperwork, not on estate agent blurb


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

CHRISJK said:


> Hi, My wife and I are looking to buy a Villa in the Altea area in Costa Blanca. We have been looking at various properties advertised by Estate Agents in Spain, before we go and view a few of them. One property that we would like to view is Described as having an outside area of 1000 m2 , but it says that only 600 m2 is on the "Paperwork" this surely cant be "above board" is this a Tax Scam ? How would this affect us if we decided to buy this property ?


Land measurements are notoriously inaccurate in Spain. We pay tax on 26,000 square metres of land but when we bought the property we had a topographic survey carried out and this showed that the plot was only 15,500 square metres, which is what is shown in the escritura. Two parcelas overlap and the same land is counted twice. Most of my neighbours are in the same situation. As the tax on our land is under €10 a year it is hardly worth doing anything about it!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

We have just had ours measured and submitted for reassessment on the grounds that we would rather pay a bit more now and avoid a huge bill in the future - our Provincial government is currently using satellite data to reassess properties and also catch those with with undeclared alterations and assets such as swimming pools.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Yeah, that whole drone thing.
Wiped over 100sq meters off our plot, house is now unsellable and we are expected to foot the bill for their errors. Still tax us for the full plot however, that is fair enough I suppose.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Steep land?


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Nope, ****e technology coupled with incompetence is my guess.
That said we have a new wall now which wasn't there before so hopefully that will be more distinguishable next flyover and they will change it back and we wont have to do a thing.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

I meant the property the OP is considering.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

oh, lol.


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## CHRISJK (Jun 26, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> Maybe the plot is 1000 sqm & the house 400 sqm?
> 
> It isn't a tax scam, since the IBI is calculated on the official paperwork, not on estate agent blurb


No... It states 1000m2 plot size but only 600m2 on the "paperwork" (for the house ) That's why I thought it was an IBI scam......


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## CHRISJK (Jun 26, 2014)

*plot size*



xabiachica said:


> Maybe the plot is 1000 sqm & the house 400 sqm?
> 
> It isn't a tax scam, since the IBI is calculated on the official paperwork, not on estate agent blurb


No... It states 1000m2 plot size but only 600m2 on the "paperwork" (for the house ) That's why I thought it was an IBI scam......


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## CHRISJK (Jun 26, 2014)

*Liable*



baldilocks said:


> We have just had ours measured and submitted for reassessment on the grounds that we would rather pay a bit more now and avoid a huge bill in the future - our Provincial government is currently using satellite data to reassess properties and also catch those with with undeclared alterations and assets such as swimming pools.


Hi, So if we buy this house, then we tell the Government the correct size of the plot, are we liable for any arrears ?


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## CHRISJK (Jun 26, 2014)

*steep land*



EverHopeful said:


> Steep land?


No not at all


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

CHRISJK said:


> Hi, So if we buy this house, then we tell the Government the correct size of the plot, are we liable for any arrears ?


Yes I think you would be.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

CHRISJK said:


> Hi, So if we buy this house, then we tell the Government the correct size of the plot, are we liable for any arrears ?


Possibly but not for any penalty for under declaration - as I understand it. It is rather like the property value when it changes hands (transfer tax) - if it has been a brown-envelope deal and the value under declared to save tax, and Hacienda find out you would not only be liable for areas but also for a penalty.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

Frankly I would have thought the first step would be to ask the agent the reason for the difference. Then, if the property is of interest, get it checked by your lawyer.


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## CHRISJK (Jun 26, 2014)

EverHopeful said:


> Frankly I would have thought the first step would be to ask the agent the reason for the difference. Then, if the property is of interest, get it checked by your lawyer.


Yes I have asked the Agent why ,but havnt received a reply for a couple of weeks ??? I think this means a lot, or is it usual for Spain ?


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## CHRISJK (Jun 26, 2014)

*?*



baldilocks said:


> Possibly but not for any penalty for under declaration - as I understand it. It is rather like the property value when it changes hands (transfer tax) - if it has been a brown-envelope deal and the value under declared to save tax, and Hacienda find out you would not only be liable for areas but also for a penalty.


Thanks for your reply.. Do you think you could explain a little better . IE make it "Idiot Proof" lol.


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## CHRISJK (Jun 26, 2014)

VFR said:


> Yes I think you would be.


Hhmmmm......We wondered why it was a bargain, and why it has been for sale for years... lol.


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## mono (Jan 22, 2016)

Ask the technico at the town hall


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

I don't think it is a scam as the Agent was upfront about it but I would worry that someone would turn up to claim the other bit not registered. When in doubt walk away. There are plenty of places for sale without problems.


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## CHRISJK (Jun 26, 2014)

mono said:


> Ask the technico at the town hall


Sorry Mono.. Ask the Technico what exactly ?


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## CHRISJK (Jun 26, 2014)

Isobella said:


> I don't think it is a scam as the Agent was upfront about it but I would worry that someone would turn up to claim the other bit not registered. When in doubt walk away. There are plenty of places for sale without problems.


But we like the look of the property and it is a bargain... lol. I think we could have it " checked out " as other posters have said.......


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

You shouldn't have to do a thing personally, it is the sellers responsibility to fix it before sale and that is what you should tell them.
But I'm guessing they know that already.
Have you seen the nota simple yet? 
Are there any 'fuera de ordenacions' on the property?
Have you looked at the catastro on a site like goolzoom?
Is it urban or rustic land?

All things you really need to be doing before contemplating making an offer. Really, don't try and do this on your own if you don't know what you are doing. Get yourself an independent abogado and they will either sort it or tell you if you are wasting your time.


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## DonMarco (Nov 20, 2016)

I was in the same boat when purchasing my Finca. it was advertised with 26,000sqm of land but the search revealed that only 9,000sqm were registered on the Catastral despite the previous owner having paid a Gestor to update the record following his additional land purchase.

My solicitor instead on having the land and BUILDINGS measured by an architect and all records updated to reflect the correct sqm. Roughly 10% of the purchase price was withheld to pay for it all. Complicated business as the sqm. for both the land as well as the buildings were incorrect plus all adjoining landowners had to be informed and given a chance to lodge objections within one month. 

All sorted now except the AFO as our Town hall refuses to implement it so far.


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## CHRISJK (Jun 26, 2014)

Pazcat said:


> You shouldn't have to do a thing personally, it is the sellers responsibility to fix it before sale and that is what you should tell them.
> But I'm guessing they know that already.
> Have you seen the nota simple yet?
> Are there any 'fuera de ordenacions' on the property?
> ...


Hahahaha..... Sorry but most of that went " straight over my head " could you please explain it a little better ( IE make it Idiot proof, lol ) for me... If not that's fine I will just google it all and see what comes up . lol Thanks.... Chris


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

CHRISJK said:


> Hahahaha..... Sorry but most of that went " straight over my head " could you please explain it a little better ( IE make it Idiot proof, lol ) for me... If not that's fine I will just google it all and see what comes up . lol Thanks.... Chris


A nota simple is a copy of a document which will describe the house and out buildings, pools and should say the size of the land. It will also state if there are any debts associated with the property and such things.
The seller should have a current copy on hand but in my experience they never do.

The fuera de ordenacions will be some type of embargo or tear down order on something like a shed or fence built illegally.

If you know where the house is then go to goolzoom.es and find the house(it's basically google maps) and zoom in. From the menu on the left there is an option for catastro, choose that and it will overlay a map of the property and that should give you the boundries of the property as well as overlay any buildings that have been registered. It will also tell you if the land is urbano or rustico which has it's own implications too.

The last step is the one I would do first, checkout goolzoom and see what it says.

I'll add though that we would never ask for the nota simple unless we planned on making an offer so that is probably better to wait until you have visited the property, it would be a bonus if they had a copy to show you at the time but agents here don't seem to do that much.


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## CHRISJK (Jun 26, 2014)

Pazcat said:


> A nota simple is a copy of a document which will describe the house and out buildings, pools and should say the size of the land. It will also state if there are any debts associated with the property and such things.
> The seller should have a current copy on hand but in my experience they never do.
> 
> The fuera de ordenacions will be some type of embargo or tear down order on something like a shed or fence built illegally.
> ...


Thanks for all that info.... but I'm not sure exactly where the house is, just that its in Alfaz. I have asked for a map of its location from the agents but they havnt got back in touch with me in over two weeks,,, Regards,,,, Chris


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## mono (Jan 22, 2016)

Sorry CHRISJK, meant go to thr town hall and fnd out i f it is all legal, water supply etc and if there is any outstanding or future issues


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## DonMarco (Nov 20, 2016)

CHRISJK said:


> Thanks for all that info.... but I'm not sure exactly where the house is, just that its in Alfaz. I have asked for a map of its location from the agents but they havnt got back in touch with me in over two weeks,,, Regards,,,, Chris


Think you might be waiting for ever for the estate agent to come back to you. Unlike the UK, where properties for sale tend to have a for sale sign outside the property, in Spain they are reluctant to let you know who the seller and where the property is. Commission?


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

DonMarco said:


> Commission?


Maybe, I would say it is more because they are hiding something about the property and they don't want you to check things out properly but honestly don't think some of them are that clever.

After the first two days of having agents take us around to view properties and then coming home and checking them out online we found that despite telling the agents we didn't want to see any rustic properties and them telling us that they are urban that every single one they showed us was in fact on rustic land.

Lesson learned and we never arranged to see a property again if we could not locate it first on google maps.
You can get quite good at locating places when no address is given.


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## CHRISJK (Jun 26, 2014)

mono said:


> Sorry CHRISJK, meant go to thr town hall and fnd out i f it is all legal, water supply etc and if there is any outstanding or future issues


Ok . Thanks for that Mono... Will probably do that when we go over later in the year, but We might struggle because although we are learning Spanish at the moment we can just about order a drink at the bar... Lol.


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