# Building Permits



## dstump

If I wanted to reconfigure a property e.g. knock out walls to create a larger kitchen, lose a bedroom to make a larger space, do I need to apply for any planning permission/permit? Obviously we would be taking professional advice on supporting walls etc. before charging in with the sledgehammer! 

Would not be adding to the footprint of any building and would not be changing use, this is all hypothetical at this stage but would just like to know as this would have an impact on timescales i.e. how long we would be in rental accommodation.

Thank you for your time.

Denise


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## canoeman

If its structural alterations then yes, if not no.

The easiest way is to visit your Camara's Engineers department with some drawings and ask, sometimes a simple letter of authority is reguired to do work or a simple licence with takes Portuguese minutes, you might be reguired to use a builder but there are different builders grades of licenses so not as expensive as a builder reguired for a Project

Structural would reguire architectural drawings etc and planning permission and a full project, work can only be carried out by licensed builders, timescale? depends on your Camara but certainly a min of 2-3 months before permission granted

Alterations or improvements, you would need to inform Finanacas as it alters the VPN (rateable) value


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## dstump

Thank you, we will add that information into the mix of things to consider. At the moment we are doing everything on the web, and we are really impressed with the variety of property available, and the options we have. Having had our fingers burned regarding a build in Cyprus we are not interested in going a new build route, but also hope to find something we can put our own stamp on, so we need to understand clearly what that entails.

Denise


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## canoeman

You'll get far more for your money *not following new build route*

You should look out for property having a pre 1951 certificate or a Habitation Licence if post 1951, if it says requires renovation not a problem, but if you do reguire Planning Permission (Project) then the Project it has to meet current building regulations which can add considerably to cost


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## travelling-man

Let me add to CMs excellent advice that rules can change depending on classification of the property. 

My place for example is classified as urban with the house as residence and the barn as annexe. We're just getting prices to convert the ban into living accommodation and my lawyer tells me we don't need planning permission to do that.

However, if we'd been classified as something other than urban, we may well have needed to ask permission. 

A good lawyer is essential when buying here.


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## dstump

Thank you Travelling man, we will be getting an independent lawyer and have joined AFPOP already. Loved the photo of the dog, once we are settled we intend to get a dog back in our life, to go with the two cats we will be bringing from UAE.

Denise


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## travelling-man

Denise,

Thanks. Lola has turned out to be an absolute delight to have in our lives and if your tastes run to pedigree gundogs, I can highly recommend a great breeder in Sintra who we got her from. .

We brought two cats from Africa when we left and it's not easy or cheap but is well worth every penny we spent on the exercise but don't forget to get the paperwork & jabs all in order well ahead of time.


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## dstump

My husband works for Emirates Airline, so we are fortunate that when we leave they will be on the same plane, (also reduced cost) and as we had a bit of uncertainty earlier this year as to when exactly we would be leaving they had their rabies vaccination in January. 

I did read your post recommending the kennels, but chances are it will be something from a rescue centre for us, and I will probably take ugliest one, on the basis that no one else will, and I feel sorry for it!

Denise


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## travelling-man

Well there's no shortage of rescue centres here but choosing just one might not be very easy!


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## robc

canoeman said:


> You'll get far more for your money *not following new build route*


That is as maybe, I would suggest that is not always so, but I would also factor in running costs once you move in. New builds are far and away more thermally efficient that pre 51 houses. 

You pays your money you takes your choice.

HTH

Rob


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## canoeman

Theres always exceptions Rob, depends when you built, when you bought plot etc but in current climate with it being a buyers market you can negotiate some very good deals, building theres little savings that can be negotiated


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## robc

That is true. A house is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it and discounts rule the market today.
That said, if like ér indoors a new build gives exactly what you want without the hassle of buying and then re-engineering 

Rob


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## canoeman

Anything for a quite life


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## robc

Oh indeed Yes


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## Domicilium

If you change the elevations or the structure you do need planning permit but you just knock out walls you dont


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## canoeman

Domicilium said:


> If you change the elevations or the structure you do need planning permit but you just knock out walls you dont


Unless structural or load bearing


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## Ant&Debs

Hi Travelling-Man

Would you be prepared to let me have your lawyer's details? We are 8 Kms from Ansio and also wish to convert a barn.

Regards

Ant&Debs


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## travelling-man

No problem at all. 

Her name is Elisa Sete Alvares & her number is 966830028..... and she's a fluent English speaker.


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## Ant&Debs

Many thanks

Ant&Debs


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## Aden'Soph

*Building permits etc*

Previous advice all good but Rob C raises the vital point that renovating a house on its original footings - which many expats have had done - often for great sums of money so as to stay within the footings area, can easily leave you with a damp, wall sodden basket case in winter. The old stone building were never intended to be clad in modern un-breathable cement and simple re-pointing may bring out the poor cheap choice of local stone used.
So, if sleeping downstairs - where the animals were in previous decades you may need a dehumidifier constantly running. 
Also - keep a clear view of the Valor das Obras (Cost of work) which will be ´hidden´ in your paperwork when declared for licensing to the Municipal. This is the price a local Portuguese would typically pay and includes materials, labour and profit. 
Price regulation does not operate here; the local licensed builders know you need them more than they need you (perhaps in this crisis less so) and there is no incentive for the Municipal to regulate as they will have relatives as builders. The Valor das Obras should in principle be a price control mechanism but has evolved into the value the builder declares (and can justify) to the tax man. 
_*For some basic structural work (not a full rebuild) we could not find any builder to quote for less than an average of X3 the Valor das Obras.*_ 
We need experiences of this Valor das Obras discussed more often on these expat websites as it is one of many instances where the theory of licensed building and the reality can be so different.


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## canoeman

Valor das Obras there is a clear distinction between the price you will get for a renovation, rebuild whatever from a builder which should be correctly invoiced and declared, to the values used by Financas to calculate the properties IMI value, "hidden" in declaration for Licensing as far as I know an estimate for work is included based on these Financas driven figures are you confusing the two?


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## Aden'Soph

Not clear at this end what exactly is the 'clear distinction' you refer to. 
You make no mention of the declaration to the Municipal of the Value of Work by the Architect / Tecnico / Builder - that we refer to and why, often, its implications / relevance for some reason cannot be fully explained to the 'foreign punters'. So many of the posts on this and other expat advice web sites across Iberia describe the confusion of what, essentially - if supervised by the Municipal, should be pretty straight forward. 
Our point is why does not the tecnico from the Municipal - when first checking on the building works - not alert the 'foreign punters' to the 'declared amount to the Municipal' of the cost of works. _Making it their job to include an integral check on potential profiteering - as well as the standard of work_.The point being that some architects / tecnicos are known to bury this much smaller amount inside their fee - telling the 'foreign punters' that their price is all inclusive of design, licensing, suoervison of builders etc etc. 'Leave everything to us ..'
Then - at the end of the build - can the Municipal tecnico not _check again with the 'foreign punters' that the final price is not far off what was originally declared the Municipal_ - as well as the standard of work being what was expected. 
Fortunately not our problem but we have heard of several instances of the final payment being with-held by the 'foreign punters' due to shoddy workmanship. Which then means the builder does not sign off the work at the Municipal so ... no completion licence. Yet the builder has already trousered excessive sums above the Valor das Obras and is free to progress to work on other sites. Not being clear what the solution is - the foreign punter moves in to live in what is technically an un-insurable property. _Again - not something a Municipal planning tecnico would have any interest in supervising (family connections?) _- which is our core point. 
The declaration to the Financas is another pot of worms as it has a number of variables relevant to the 'foreign punters' actual spending on the build and at a later date when calculating Mais Valias / Capital Gains for a sale/transfer. For example - did the 'foreign punters' get copies of all the invoices for materials and labour that they paid for, so can claim on guarantees etc and was the build fully IVA declared by all involved?


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## canoeman

Sorry but anyone should have a contract with Architect & Engineer possibly a Project Manager if employed spelling out responsibilities, costs and fees, equally with the builder spelling out program, materials, costs, stage payments etc if you don't you just ask for trouble somewhere along the line.

Fees for final tests, approvals for Habitation Licence are rarely included.

Although it makes life more difficult it's not a problem to sack a builder if he hasn't upheld his part of contract and another can be appointed.

It's the 'foreign punters' responsibility to see they get what they pay for either themselves or through their contract with Architect, Project Manager or Builder

The distinction is there is a National set of values per m2 for IMI calculation purposes which has little if any bearing on the price you pay per m2 for a build or any work, that's up to you the punter to negioate the best deal you can get

Well if they didn't get correct receipts for work paid for sorry but more fool them equally if they decided to go down the path of cash payments, what anyone buying in Portugal should understand and realize is that the property is registered with Finanacas and when sold is subject to declaring whether a primary or a secondary home, resident or Non Resident, the formula for CGT is the same but status of property and residence defines what you can re-invest free of CGT or are charged


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## Domicilium

O valor da obra is a document that is the architect who writes it and submits it to the camera along with the project and other documents. Its it an estimate value of the costs of the construction and its true some architects do this value much less than the real estimate as builders licence is divided in categories depending how much is the cost of a construction. For instances category I cant do works above 100k or so (cant remmember the exact value), so the Valor de Obra can be less than 100k in order to builders of category I be able to do it. Despite this is also for taxes purposes, they may ask a lower cost as they wont tell the fiscal they did charge you more.


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## Ash Jez

canoeman said:


> You should look out for property having a pre 1951 certificate or a Habitation Licence if post 1951, if it says requires renovation not a problem, but if you do reguire Planning Permission (Project) then the Project it has to meet current building regulations which can add considerably to cost


 I found this to be very interest and would request, if possible, further information or even, a link to explain matters further if allowed.


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## canoeman

Property in Portugal requires a Habitation Certificate, also called Licença de Habitação, Licença de Utilizaçao *to live in*, which differentiates from a building that might only be an Agricultural store

Build years for property, Certificates, Licences reguired to produce for Escritura 

Pre 1937: Property built before 1937 does not require a Certificate ( Certidão) from Câmara stating they were built before 17th August 1951.
Pre 1951: Property built before 17th August 1951 requires a Certificate ( Certidão) from Câmara stating they were built before 17th August 1951. 
Post 1951: Property built after 17th August 1951 require a Licença de Utilização
Post 2004: Property constructed after 30th March 2004 must also have a Ficha Technica de Habitação
Post 2004: Property constructed after 30th March 2004 must also have a Ficha Technica de Habitação
November 2008 Livro de Obra 
January 2009:* All properties For sale or rental* a Certidão de Energetica required
January 2009: new builds mandatory Solar Water heating for domestic hot water
Bore Holes & water sources 2009: Should be registered with Regional Water Board, wells if 5hp+ pump used for extraction.
Fosse (Septic Tanks) 2009: Occupancy 10+ people should be registered with Regional Water Board.

Renovation does not reguire Planning Permission/ Project unless structural work undertaken, although you might reguire permission or a Licence for certain work e.g external insulation or re-roofing

Planning/Projects regardless of year of property construction plans alterations build has to be to current building regulations e.g say you added a kitchen extension to an old stone built farmhouse, the new construction would need to meet current build regs for insulation etc

If a pre 1951 property did not have a Licença de Utilização you must make present owner responsible to obtain as a condition of purchase, as it's a 95% certainty he would be required to meet current building codes to obtain


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## Ash Jez

As always Canoeman you provide a great deal on useful information to those with little or no knowledge and this is much appreciated by many I have no doubt. In this thread, what really caught my attention was the use of the term renovation used in post 4. Here you say "if it says requires renovation not a problem". As we are all aware, "requires renovation" is often used when properties are being marketed. Also, the term ruin will frequently be used. Now, if we are considering licensed estate agents, are the terms ruin and requires renovation providing a clue as to the habitation statues of these properties and if so, how is the estate agent able to tell if the property is in fact a ruin or one that requires renovation. Perhaps this seems a stupid question on the surface, but often, what appears to be a ruin when viewed over the net, looks like it could be the subject of something needing renovation and again a property that looks like it needs renovation appears to be a complete ruin.

Also, who is it that determines whether a property is a ruin or renovation job. Further to this, when property is marketed as having x bedrooms. Does x bedroom suggest with certainty that the building is habitable and that a license is in place. Again, many are marketed with no mention of bedrooms so what is this telling us. I know that Portugal is not England and that I have put my UK property on the markets with nothing more than an energy certificate. In such a case, nobody is aware if the property is really a house or commercial building.

From my point of view, a lot of confusion is caused here as so little information is provide when a property is marketed.

One other thing. Where is is you have obtained the above provided information. Is there a site available to one we can take as gospel.


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## canoeman

By renovation then I'm presuming property has either a pre 1951 Certificate or a Habitation Licence, structurally sound then it's really open as so much depends on the state of a particular property or what you wanted to do, you could reconfigure internal rooms providing alterations aren't structural, it might reguire a new roof but that's a Licence job not planning, hopefully agents would also describe in a similar way.

Major benefit with a renovation is vast majority of work can be DIY but where a Licence is required you'd need a builder with correct licence, or might reguire registered tradesman for something like gas or electrics if you reguired certification

If bedrooms are mentioned then yes it should have a Certificate/Licence of one type or another ruin or renovation.
Just a slight complication here although a ruin might have a Certificate saying it's a Habitual dwelling it doesn't automatically follow that Planning Permission would be granted to re-build due subsequent changes in land use, regulations etc

Ruins I'm afraid is far more complex, the 1st thing to establish is designation of ruin if there described as barns, stores, sheds then you're very unlikely to get planning permission to turn into a house.
You might be told you can but why invest your money in something that is never going to be officially licenced with the inherent risk of fines or orders to demolish.

A ruin that has a certificate or Licence believe can't just be a pile of stone but must have some or parts of walls standing to get Planning Permission

Question to ask agent is to see a copy of the Caderneta Predial Financas or Conservatoria as it will state Status of building

Agents descriptions well it's getting a feel for site and trying to unravel the glossy picture

One site that'd be great, but not found one yet, it's gleaning information from lots of sources not only English sites but also searching the same questions in Portuguese, cross checking and keeping notes.

Omostra06 on here has posted lots of useful information which is also on his web site which I've forgotten name off


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## Ash Jez

Thank you canoeman for yet another very fully and clear reply. Do excuse the delayed reply as I seem to have been so busy as of late due to my property finally being under offer.

The information you have provided really does help me understand what may be possible if the information as provided by estate agents can be believed. It is unfortunate to so many agents provide such a little information. Do they not understand that just giving a property date would be helpful.

Well, now for me perhaps things will start to take off and the real search can begin where I'm thinking of the areas of Castelo Branco/Coimbra. Somewhere that's not flat but has the hills of the South Downs or similar with an abundance of greenery and cooler than further south. Fundao seems to crop up now and again but appears to be well high up. I've much to learn.


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## canoeman

Hills of the South Downs Fundoa, think you do have a lot to learn coastal plains if your after that

Agents want you to visit so they can show you what they'd prefer to sell Portuguese ones especially


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## Ash Jez

canoeman said:


> Hills of the South Downs Fundoa, think you do have a lot to learn coastal plains if your after that


 Oh yes, I do have a lot to learn and the Fundoa area does seem very flat going by Google street view. What I was thinking was more the surrounding area that appear to be more hilly.

Oh the agents, how true. But where is the best place to start. What I've done so far is to base much on climate followed by greenery and terrain. Google is a bit of a friend at the moment.


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## canoeman

I'd make a short list split into

Lifestyle
Amenities
Property
Transport

So some of your "must, want, would like" criteria will affect where you actually look or narrow a search down too more specific areas

Property a much more problematic one, think until you can really see the reality of pictures, description, location it's difficult to put it all in context re land you really *don't* want 100's of m2 as attractive as it sounds, it's extremely hard work looking after.

Suggest looking at Casa.Sapo.pt - Portal Nacional de Imobiliário as as an alternative & in conjunction with Google Earth in Hybrid mode the reality of contours show much better

Climate well I wouldn't worry to that degree yet


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