# Claim on Alsa



## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

A guy flies from the US to Malaga for a flamenco guitar course. He is told to stow his guitar in the hold of the Alsa coach. He arrives in Granada and the guitar (plus books and bits and pieces within the guitar case) are missing. 

The value over 2000 Euros.

Alsa play hardball but after several weeks of artificial delay and repeat questions agree to perform a 7 day search . And then make an offer (agreed by their insurance company) of 60 Euros. So liability admitted, and this he has in an email.

Can anyone with any experience in such matters suggest what he might do?

Cheers


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## davexf (Jan 26, 2009)

Hola 

I must admit I hate using coaches for the same reason; you are not allowed baggage inside the coach and whilst my carry-on bag may only have my dirty linen in it, I think the whole process is very insecure. 

Davexf


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Is he still in Spain? 

Has he filled in an official complaint form? That would be my fist step.

Next step, pay a lawyer to respond to the email.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Overandout said:


> Is he still in Spain?
> 
> Has he filled in an official complaint form? That would be my fist step.
> 
> Next step, pay a lawyer to respond to the email.


Yes he tried to follow every procedure and registered the theft with the police. 

The problem with the lawyer route is that it is throwing good money after bad. How does he find a competent and honest spanish lawyer? And having done so what are the chances of success?

If anyone has any experience of taking Alsa to court and having success that might give confidence but I couldn't, based on my experience, recommend that route.

My hope was that there was some type of consumer complaint procedure that applies to Granada/Andalucia/Spain, that might prove helpful (but I may be clutching at straws). Sadly all EU law seems to apply to the point of sale and T&Cs. Not with redressing failure of service (in this case theft).

Should say the flamenco school rented him a quality guitar (this was a very advanced course so any old would have been a problem). And the course was excellent. But as you can imagine it still leaves a sour taste.

Another follow up to this was that the guy bought a guitar and on two further Alsa trips he just told the driver that his guitar was staying with him. The drivers didn't make an issue of it,


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Could he, perhaps, claim on his travel insurance and get the insurance company to pursue Alsa for reimbursement of his claim?

It does appear, by the way, that transport of luggage is covered by EU regulations - this is an extract from Alsa's terms and conditions:-

"The liability for any damage or loss of transported luggage will be determined, limited, and quantified in accordance with Law 16/1987 of 30 July on Land Transport Planning and by Regulation (EU) no. 181/2011 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 16 February 2011 concerning the rights of passengers in bus and coach transport in force at this time and applicable at any given time."

https://www.alsa.com/en/web/bus/terms-of-purchase

I have't looked up the EU regulation to see what that says about how such losses are limited or quantified.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

nigele2 said:


> The problem with the lawyer route is that it is throwing good money after bad. How does he find a competent and honest spanish lawyer? And having done so what are the chances of success?
> 
> If anyone has any experience of taking Alsa to court and having success that might give confidence but I couldn't, based on my experience, recommend that route.


Sorry to say that I find that answer a bit strange. It is quite normal that to enforce your legal rights in any country, you need to pay a lawyer. Spain has a very high quality of legal professionals, but of course, you get what you pay for, and need to judge your investment wisely. No point paying a lawyer 500€ to recover 300€. 

I am taking the vendor of my apartment to court and, yes, I have had to shell out several hundred Euros in legal fees to get the case to court (we went last week, now awaiting the verdict), but if you're not prepared to put up the fight against the "bad guys" then you probably won't win anything. Alsa will have good lawyers, your friend won't beat them on his own. But in fact as an American, he'll probably find Spanish legal fees very reasonable.

If he wants to go it alone, he will have to do a lot of reading and make sure that he understands the applicable laws very well, I wouldn't recommend it.
Although I did once prevent a claim against me made by someone who bought a used vehicle from me by explaining his rights under the law, my responsibility under the same law, the facts of the case, and then told him that I would be prepared to go to court over it. He never wrote back after that. But that was against an individual, not a corporation with an in-house legal team.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Thanks Lynn and Overandout. For sure if he was still, and going to be for sometime, in Spain then a lawyer might be worth trying. 

I'm glad Overandout that your experience with Spanish lawyers has been good. Mine has not been.

And for sure lawyers in the US might be expensive but not all americans (and especially muscians ) are rich, And he would be looking at costs of translation and communication. And there is the difficult issue of valuation (he has photos of the guitar and its label - but as we know, labels are added to guitars to increase their secondhand value). Would Alsa take his word for it? 

And we are only talking 2000 Euros so any costs add to his final loss.

I guess he needs to just make a counter offer, them now accepting liability, and hope. Unless there is a consumer org. that might help?

Lynn I'll check the EU stuff again as that might add some ammunition so tx for that.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

nigele2 said:


> My hope was that there was some type of consumer complaint procedure that applies to Granada/Andalucia/Spain, that might prove helpful (but I may be clutching at straws). Sadly all EU law seems to apply to the point of sale and T&Cs. Not with redressing failure of service (in this case theft).


There is, it is called OMIC and is administered through the local authorities. It is located at Calle Gran Capitán, 22, 18002 Granada Tel 958 24 81 00 If he goes to the Granada Ayuntamiento, they will point him in the right direction.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I know this case is about a bus company not an airline, but this is what CAB UK has to say about claiming compensation for lost luggage:-

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/c...ine-compensation-for-lost-or-delayed-luggage/

They say it is probably better to claim on your travel insurance or home contents insurance as you will most likely get more compensation that way. Airlines do not pay on a new for old basis, and are unlikely to pay more than 1,000 pounds in total. Plus they will want receipts for everything.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

*nigele2*



baldilocks said:


> There is, it is called OMIC and is administered through the local authorities. It is located at Calle Gran Capitán, 22, 18002 Granada Tel 958 24 81 00 If he goes to the Granada Ayuntamiento, they will point him in the right direction.


Brilliant stuff Baldilocks. I'll get that to him and offer to call them on his behalf,


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Thanks again Lynn. My experience was when LAM flew my dirty underwear to the back of beyond they paid half of our receipted bills. Yes I know, too much information.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

nigele2 said:


> I'm glad Overandout that your experience with Spanish lawyers has been good. Mine has not been.
> 
> And for sure lawyers in the US might be expensive but not all americans (and especially muscians ) are rich, And he would be looking at costs of translation and communication.


Well, I won't say that my experience in my own case has been good until I know the verdict!! 

But just because you did not have a good experience does not mean that all Spanish lawyers are bad and that everyone else should avoid them. I still think that spending a small amount on paying for a legal letter (maybe for 50 -100€) may pay for itself in the long term. He may not be rich, but surely that's more motive to fight against losing thousands of Euros worth of stuff 

I hope he resolves the claim.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

But how will he prove that the guitar was on the coach?


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> But how will he prove that the guitar was on the coach?


At the end of the day he can't. Even security camera film would only show a guitar case being loaded, and presumably removed. And after the delay by Alsa it seems the film is not available.

The best hope is members of a guitar forum scanning the secondhand market. It is unlikely that the thief would know what to do with it beyond sell it. There has been success through this route before (as many top end guitars are numbered). 

At the moment he has replied asking on what basis the evaluation was made and how it is unacceptable. We wait and see. But a lesson to be learned I guess.


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## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Pesky Wesky said:


> But how will he prove that the guitar was on the coach?


That question could be asked in many instances when a crime report is made to the police. Example a guy says he was wearing a Rolex which was stolen. Probably no way to prove he is not lying. Whether his insurance company will pay out is a matter of trust. 

Probably in most instances insurance companies pay out. If they did not why would anyone pay for insurance?


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