# I never thought of South Africa



## synthia

Even though I lived and worked there (in Welkom, of all places) for two years in the early 80's, I never thought of going back there to live. Now that I think of it, I can see the appeal of living somewhere like Capetown or Durbin. I don't think I'd go back to Welkom.

When I was there, in addition to the obvious issue of apartheid, Welkom was a booming community with a lot of ex-patriate workers. In the two years I was there, I had one employee from the Netherlands, two from England, and one from Israel.

I'm sure Welkom wouldn't be like that now, but I wonder about Durban and Capetown.


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## Peterc

I agree with you completely, South Africa was often in our travel plans and used to go there every month for family who live in Johannesburg. Cape Town is getting more and more expats living there. The quality of life is superb and the climate is enviable.


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## attagirl

I have never been there, let alone think about moving there. But your information really peaks my interest in what they have to offer. What else can you tell us about these areas.


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## apricot

I am a South African (now living in the US). I miss my country - the beautiful landscape and wildlife - but will never move back there. Sadly South Africa boasts one of the highest crime rates in the world as well as one of the highest HIV infection rates. Murder, rape, hijacking - it's all part of many people's days in the country and it's a tragedy that the government refuses to see the problem.

The 2010 FIFA World Cup is being hosted in South Africa and FIFA has warned that they will move the venue if something doesn't happen to change the crime situation.


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## synthia

I just talked to some people who had been traveling there. They enjoyed it, but said they felt as if they were in a prison with all the precautions they had to take.


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## Peterc

Yes crime is bad, no one can deny that but the police force is getting better and crime is slowly decreasing. A beautiful country and nice friendly people mostly, a bad few let the whole image of the place down. The change of governments unfortunately saw a decrease of the ability of the police force.


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## synthia

I drove everywhere on my own when I was there, but now I gather that, say, driving from Johannesburg to Capetown as a single female wouldn't be advisable.


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## apricot

Sad thing is the whole country is on strike at the moment in the education, health, and public service sectors. This affects the economy really badly and of course does not do much for the morale of the country...


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## synthia

No, that doesn't sound like fun at all. Are doctor's on strike, too?


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## rem

I am an expat living in South Africa and I fels that all that was said about crime on this page are inaccurate. I have been here for 7 years (between Durban and Cape Town) and I drive around the country regularly. Yes, the crime is an issue of concern but here in Gordons Bay (a subur of Cape Town) I have left my car parked outside and unlock (though not intentionally) on a number of occasion. The crime situation is high but not as scary as posted here.

I am on this forum ços I have been selected to apply for immigration to NZ and wants to find-out about NZ. I must say that I am leaving SA with a great deal of reluctance. I have to leave because of the high-tech nature of my work which means that I need to find more challenges.

As a matter of fact, having gone through the discussion on NZ forum, I doubt that leaving SA is a good idea. For instance in terms of crime, I understand that there were about 150000 burglaries in NZ last year, in a population of 4 million. Per-capita SA is nothing near that.

Driving from Cape Town to J'burg ? That will be a matter of choice. I doubt that startistically, it is less safe than briving between London and Manchester.

The strike, what strike ? I have not see the effect of the strike. Now, that is being cheeky. I get all my services from the private sector.


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## quin_paula

*Moving to SA*

Hi there,

Durban is a wonderful place to live. I am married to a born and bread scotsman who will neber return to the UK. We enjoy the outdoors far too much.

Durban, too, has a large expatriate community. 

Good luck




synthia said:


> Even though I lived and worked there (in Welkom, of all places) for two years in the early 80's, I never thought of going back there to live. Now that I think of it, I can see the appeal of living somewhere like Capetown or Durbin. I don't think I'd go back to Welkom.
> 
> When I was there, in addition to the obvious issue of apartheid, Welkom was a booming community with a lot of ex-patriate workers. In the two years I was there, I had one employee from the Netherlands, two from England, and one from Israel.
> 
> I'm sure Welkom wouldn't be like that now, but I wonder about Durban and Capetown.


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## synthia

Do you live in Durban proper or one of the towns near there that have been recommended?


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## quin_paula

synthia said:


> Do you live in Durban proper or one of the towns near there that have been recommended?


Hi Sunthia,
I live in Hillcrest which is about 30kms outside Durban city centre. The other suburbs around us are Kloof, Gillits and Winston Park. All are beautiful treed areas, unlike thcity centre.
Cheers


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## synthia

I've heard the city center is quite dangerous, with a very high crime rate. The areas you are talking about are, I presume, safer.


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## quin_paula

*South Africa - Durban*

Yes they are safer areas. I never venture into the city as we do not haveto - there are many shopping malls that are out of the city centre. This makes life here safer.


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## synthia

And how are the beaches?


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## mickey

I have been to South Africa on holiday many times and luckily never had or seen a problem. I live with a South African and we are seriously thinking of moving to South Africa. We are looking at Gordons bay, I was interested at what trem was saying on safety, where are the better areas in Gordons bay?? 
The crime here in the UK is getting worse by the day, and is involving kids at a young age. So it leaves you to wonder if any where is safe?????


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## quicksilver

*the safety in durban*



quin_paula said:


> Anyone looking to get more info on SA, please feel free to contact me.


Hey quin_paula, 

i'm from moscow, russia and i shall move to Durban soon for my 6 months student internship. i wonder how tough is it to move around for a young lady on her onw, as at the beginning i wouldn't have a car. 
Is it as dangerous as everybody keeps telling me. even at daytime?
I couldn't find a lot of expats living there, are there some?
Are there windsurfing clubs i can join? 
Is Overport (where my office will be) a safe area? 

sorry for storming you with all these questions, but i can't find much of positive information on Durban in internet)

thanks in advance, 

maria


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## STEFF

I lived in South Africa for 27 years years and loved it. Things have changed and it is not the place for everyone. I now live in Thailand and wished i had found this place many years ago. It saddens me to read about the crime and such as we had the best childhood in South Africa. Now I would not go back neither would my family.


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## synthia

quicksilver and others -

If you want to contact someone on the forum who offers more information, you can use the private message (PM) system. Just click on their ID and choose 'send private message'.

And welcome to the forum.


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## writer201

synthia said:


> Even though I lived and worked there (in Welkom, of all places) for two years in the early 80's, I never thought of going back there to live. Now that I think of it, I can see the appeal of living somewhere like Capetown or Durbin. I don't think I'd go back to Welkom.
> 
> When I was there, in addition to the obvious issue of apartheid, Welkom was a booming community with a lot of ex-patriate workers. In the two years I was there, I had one employee from the Netherlands, two from England, and one from Israel.
> 
> I'm sure Welkom wouldn't be like that now, but I wonder about Durban and Capetown.


You have to think about work opportunities. SAfrica has in place positive discrimination which favours the native black population particulalry women and you might struggle to find a job. I have had friend who were retrenched and struggled to find work, many indeed have left and now live abroad. Safrica isn't what it used to be hence why I no longer live there.


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## writer201

attagirl said:


> I have never been there, let alone think about moving there. But your information really peaks my interest in what they have to offer. What else can you tell us about these areas.


Take my advice and stay away because opportuities are few and far between. Don't t let the thought of sunshine in this case tempt you. The country has mnay problems not just crime and with the recent r=election of Jacob Zuma as ANC leader the future of Safrica could be more another Zimbabwe. Already 100's of white farmer are murdered in SAFRICA and what is the Government reaction - nothing becasue the Government do not want to tarnish their image - stay safe stay away.


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## writer201

Take my advice and stay away because work opportunities are few and far between. Don't let the thought of sunshine in this case tempt you. The country has many problems; it is not just crime. With the recent election of Jacob Zuma to the post of ANC leader the future of Safrica could create another Zimbabwe. This man has heavy leftward leaning politics. A sad situation in Safrica now is the 100's of white farmers who are murdered in SAFRICA so their land can be taken back and used by black farmers who have absolutley no skills at all. Just take a look at all the postings on Youtube and decide from there where is Safrica going. What is the Government reaction to all these murders? - nothing because the Government do not want to tarnish their image abroad - stay safe stay away. Answer me this - if Safrica is so great why has the white population since the early 1980s shrunk by over a third (including myself) and why are white Sarfican's still leaving country to seek new lives and opportunities abroad?


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## gkloken

Oh dear can we do something about spell check here? Are you positive you came from South Africa?
Now where would you get your facts about the "100's of farmers killed for their land .....etc? "
Amazing how negative you are when you are not here right now. I have moved back to South Africa by choice after living in the USA for several years and man am I glad I did!
Wherever I go I see signs up for job vacancies and I see a perfect balance of black and white workers in shops, restaurants, businesses. You name it . My two sons did not find it difficult to get well paid work.
As a matter of fact within one week. I don't need to find work, but even so as a "white woman" I had several offers too!
I travelled to Cape Town this past festive season and all I saw on the roads were all the very expensive types of vehicles, 4x4's with trailers and tenders as in Jet skis, boats, quad bikes, bikes , caravans. You name it! There is a very friendly and relaxed atmosphere in most parts of the country. White people are living well and comfortable over all. The same with a large percentage of blacks and other Ethnic groups. 
I would say South Africa is a country of abundance for all who want to work.


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## Stravinsky

gkloken said:


> Oh dear can we do something about spell check here? Are you positive you came from South Africa?
> Now where would you get your facts about the "100's of farmers killed for their land .....etc? "
> Amazing how negative you are when you are not here right now. I have moved back to South Africa by choice after living in the USA for several years and man am I glad I did!
> Wherever I go I see signs up for job vacancies and I see a perfect balance of black and white workers in shops, restaurants, businesses. You name it . My two sons did not find it difficult to get well paid work.
> As a matter of fact within one week. I don't need to find work, but even so as a "white woman" I had several offers too!
> I travelled to Cape Town this past festive season and all I saw on the roads were all the very expensive types of vehicles, 4x4's with trailers and tenders as in Jet skis, boats, quad bikes, bikes , caravans. You name it! There is a very friendly and relaxed atmosphere in most parts of the country. White people are living well and comfortable over all. The same with a large percentage of blacks and other Ethnic groups.
> I would say South Africa is a country of abundance for all who want to work.



Wow! All the press reports about people being murdered and raped and attacked in their own homes are wrong then are they? And theres no problem with the new leader of the ANC being linked with corruption?


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## writer201

Explain to me why so many Safrican's have left the country including me? why does my brother in law sleep with a gun next to him and why does their house have internal security to block the bedrooms off from the rest of the house if intruders break in? My sister and husband live in Edenvale within a gated community due to the amount of hi-jackings and murders within the area. 
There is a multitude of Safrican's here in the UK and I have met many living in Europe and not one has anything positive to say. One asked me where were my bullet wounds when I said I used to live in Kensington, JHB (where I attended Jeppe High School for Boys). The Safrican government does not want to report the farm murders because it will ruin their image overseas. That information hitting the wider world could lose them the 2012 Football World Cup which is currently destined to be a flop unless the workers get the fingers pulled out. Remember how devious the white National Government was by with holding information and using the press to their advantage - well the colour of the Safrican government may have changed but not much else has?. If you have any doubt about the murders of white farmers go to You Tube where there are plenty of posted reports to enlighten you. Also as another post here has mentioned Jacob Zuma is corrupt and that is the sort of person the safrican electorate have elected as a potential future president. Just goes to show the mindset of of certain Safrican's. If he becomes president where will safrica go then? If you haven't started packing your bags yet I'd advise you start doing so . . .


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## Stravinsky

writer201 said:


> Explain to me why so many Safrican's have left the country including me? why does my brother in law sleep with a gun next to him and why does their house have internal security to block the bedrooms off from the rest of the house if intruders break in? My sister and husband live in Edenvale within a gated community due to the amount of hi-jackings and murders within the area.
> There is a multitude of Safrican's here in the UK and I have met many living in Europe and not one has anything positive to say. One asked me where were my bullet wounds when I said I used to live in Kensington, JHB (where I attended Jeppe High School for Boys). The Safrican government does not want to report the farm murders because it will ruin their image overseas. That information hitting the wider world could lose them the 2012 Football World Cup which is currently destined to be a flop unless the workers get the fingers pulled out. Remember how devious the white National Government was by with holding information and using the press to their advantage - well the colour of the Safrican government may have changed but not much else has?. If you have any doubt about the murders of white farmers go to You Tube where there are plenty of posted reports to enlighten you. Also as another post here has mentioned Jacob Zuma is corrupt and that is the sort of person the safrican electorate have elected as a potential future president. Just goes to show the mindset of of certain Safrican's. If he becomes president where will safrica go then? If you haven't started packing your bags yet I'd advise you start doing so . . .


Maybe the poster knows something about the Homecoming Revolution


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## scazman

*Welkom*



synthia said:


> quicksilver and others -
> 
> If you want to contact someone on the forum who offers more information, you can use the private message (PM) system. Just click on their ID and choose 'send private message'.
> 
> And welcome to the forum.


I wanted to send you a private message but that facility doesn't appear to be available. Perphaps as I'm a newbie on this forum?

I am interested in finding out more about Welkom and I note that you used to live there. I have an interview for a job in Welkom but I know little about the place or the surrounding area. I have lived in Botswana though so I do know something of what to expect of SA per se.

My main concern revolves around the fact that I am white British and my wife is a black Zambian. We have one mixed race child. Is Welkom (or anywhere within 30km's) condusive to a mixed race family? I am worried that I might take my family into a hotbed of intolerance!!! 

I am also interested to know about the security situation around Welkom. I suspect that it's a different world to Jozie, Pretoria or Midrand and probably relatively safe but tbh I am just guessing! 

Any advice from ff's would be gratefully received.


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## writer201

To a previous thread I am well aware of the Homecoming revolution and I hear the attempts to get skilled workers back is not working and it is Eskom who are trying to get skilled workers back. Seems as if the re will be plenty of power cuts to come for a few years yet. My sister and borther in law were recently here in the UK and as near as they both are to the age of fifty they have decided to quit Safrica as they feel they can no longer live there. They are working longer hours, earning less money, are continually stressed and the cost of living is soaring. I have heard Safican's say the cost of living in SA is now higher than it is here in the UK. I have recently made contact with a friend who is 48 and has emigrated to New Zealand. Scazman do your self a favour and stay away. The recent well publicised problems of xenophobia should tell you about the feelings of black South African's to outsiders in particular black people.


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## synthia

We have recently instituted a policy of requiring five posts before using the PM system. Unfortunately, the facility was being abused.


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## Unseer

I posted this in another thread, wanted to respond here too. I'm a positive Saffa.

My wife & I have been living in London for just under 7 years now. We left SA to see the world and accidentally got great jobs in London, bought a house and had a kid. Hard to argue with the economic stability of the UK right? Problem is we forgot that everything we love, everything dear to us is back in South Africa so we're going back home.

Cape Town is the place we're aiming for, I've lived there before (also lived in Joburg) and it's a nice balance of beauty (it's so beautiful it hurts), crime (better than Joburg, not as good as Knysna where I grew up) and stability (SA set to grow by 4.8% in 2008). After living in London and driving the hour-plus to work through rush hour I think Cape Town is going to be a wonderful surprise.

I've also never felt any less safe in London than I did living in Joburg. I grew up on a farm in the Southern Cape and worked in a bottle store doing deliveries into the locations during high school so I've seen a lot of stuff.
SA is the wild west, it's painfully beautiful from coast to coast, incredibly vibrant in all aspects and as dangerous as a bag of mamba's. With all of this in mind, we get to make a choice and we have chosen.

I love South Africa more intensely than ever before and its time to go home.


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## BeautifulMystique

Unseer said:


> I posted this in another thread, wanted to respond here too. I'm a positive Saffa.
> 
> My wife & I have been living in London for just under 7 years now. We left SA to see the world and accidentally got great jobs in London, bought a house and had a kid. Hard to argue with the economic stability of the UK right? Problem is we forgot that everything we love, everything dear to us is back in South Africa so we're going back home.
> 
> Cape Town is the place we're aiming for, I've lived there before (also lived in Joburg) and it's a nice balance of beauty (it's so beautiful it hurts), crime (better than Joburg, not as good as Knysna where I grew up) and stability (SA set to grow by 4.8% in 2008). After living in London and driving the hour-plus to work through rush hour I think Cape Town is going to be a wonderful surprise.
> 
> I've also never felt any less safe in London than I did living in Joburg. I grew up on a farm in the Southern Cape and worked in a bottle store doing deliveries into the locations during high school so I've seen a lot of stuff.
> SA is the wild west, it's painfully beautiful from coast to coast, incredibly vibrant in all aspects and as dangerous as a bag of mamba's. With all of this in mind, we get to make a choice and we have chosen.
> 
> I love South Africa more intensely than ever before and its time to go home.


I've been to Cape Town twice and I love it there.

Unseer, I wish you had PM privilege. I'd love to know more about Cape Town as I am planning to move there.


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## Unseer

Hi BeautifulMystique

Unfortunately I've only just found and joined this forum so no privileges of any kind yet. I'm going to monologue a little first and then get to Cape Town. Stay with me.

I've taken a look at some of the other threads and posts on this section and there are certainly some common themes both positive and negative. The big thing about SA is that "it is what it is". Sure things are rocky, things are rocky everywhere. Yes there's crime, no it's not a war zone. Yes the government can come across as dumb, no it's not unique to SA and yes it's getting better. We've just been through 14 years of starting over and it's been an interesting ride of short & medium term adjustments in the balance of opportunity. Introducing a brand new government driven by one fundamental goal of providing for the folk that elected it will do that to you. Thankfully we've got a wonderfully stable economy as a base from which to effect change, one that's intrinsically linked to the markets all around the world. Who could ask for more?

The infrastructure in SA is 1st world, the customer service is a little lumpy but excellent. People are richer than ever before and taking a look at the number of new cars on the road, the number of businesses that have remained successful, and grown in spite of the potential effects of BEE, I'd say things are peachy. I have the greatest respect for the leading business folk in SA, regardless of colour.

So, enough of that. On to Cape Town. Cape Town is pretty cool, it's a city that's grown organically and is wonderfully sculpted in some areas and also reflects the influx of folk from the rural areas looking for their share of the pie. All in all, it's lovely, certainly much more beautiful than London. I think it's the mountain that does it. And the sea. And the sun. And the people.

Am I worried about the safety of my wife and little girl? Absolutely, but we live in Carshalton (in London) in what I like to call "chav central" and my wife worries every day about taking our little one for a walk. A good friend of ours was assaulted in our street by a group of girls and their mothers who in turn were assaulting another lass. They really took offense to her being South African. So do I worry anymore than I do here? I do, but not much.

Cape Town, as with the rest of the country in varying degrees, is a city that has a balance of good and bad that's in excess of London, San Antonio, New York, Perth and a number of other places I've visited. It's as easy to be successful in Cape Town as it is in any other city, the opportunities are the same and sometimes greater. With the world cup coming up things are certainly going to get much more interesting over the next two years.

I know it's a long post, you can tell I'm passionate about the topic can't you.


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## bovinerebel

Hey unseer. That's one of the more level-headed rational posts about South Africa I've seen in a while. None of the hyperbole and bald faced lies one so often sees , depecting it as a war zone where people just fall over in the streets. Good on you .


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## bovinerebel

One thing remains true about South Africa. Take this to mean what you want , but we struggle to get people to come here , because before they do they have to sift through a lot of negative rubbish written by either the few white people who have been affected by crime (it's uniquely south african that they feel they are a victim of some conspiracy as oppossed to socio-econimic freakishly bad misfortune...and yes....they are a very few) or those who love to advertise any failure from the black government due to being bitter about losing power and privelege. 

But despite that , those that come to South Africa for the gross majority love it , find it nothing like the negative version sold by the white agenda filled media , find the quality of life excellent , the people warm and friendly and the county beautiful , creative and vibrant. That's why south african tourism only manages to get 6 million people here every year , but has the highest percentage of repeat visitors. It's a great place to live and you're more than welcome to be part of what many of us , whose voices are drowned out by the emotive irrational doomsdayers , consider to be a wonderful future.


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## BeautifulMystique

Thank you Unseer and Bovinerebel for your posts!

I've been turned off by some of the negative posters but I've heard of such people you've mentioned. I mentioned to my BF what I have read here and he laughed his head off as he said some of the 'info' were over-exaggerated. He's white, btw and has no problem with whatever that is going on. Then again, maybe it's where he lives that has no problem such as those mentioned here and about on this board.

It's good to read the positive sides of South Africa. I'm excited as I've just browsed on a few really amazing looking guest houses and I cannot wait to get started!


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## bovinerebel

BeautifulMystique said:


> Thank you Unseer and Bovinerebel for your posts!
> 
> I've been turned off by some of the negative posters but I've heard of such people you've mentioned. I mentioned to my BF what I have read here and he laughed his head off as he said some of the 'info' were over-exaggerated. He's white, btw and has no problem with whatever that is going on. Then again, maybe it's where he lives that has no problem such as those mentioned here and about on this board.
> 
> It's good to read the positive sides of South Africa. I'm excited as I've just browsed on a few really amazing looking guest houses and I cannot wait to get started!


Yes , please remember that the people who come on these forums to spread the bad news do in no way represent your average South African. Most South Africans are too busy worrying about what they are going to do on the weekend to be running around expats forums giving their opinions. Sadly that leaves the loud few with an racist agenda to come on these places and spread a lot of nonsense unchecked by reality and facts. 

As I suggested some people have geniune gripes and were victims of crime. They are the gross minority of the country and while I'm sympathetic I do wish they'd not project all their hate onto the country and black people as a whole. You're average black South African is a kind , god fearing person with no interest in carrying out any crime. In fact the gross majority of black South Africans are as described. 

My advice is please come see for yourself and that should make it clear exactly how much these people are misrepresenting South Africa. The odds of anything happening to you are astronomically low and nothing any rational person should ever worry about.


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## DannyBoy

*Life in s.a is just peachy*

Yes, it's really WONDERFUL here in Cape Town and South Africa.

Only last week the DOCTORS were on STRIKE.
The week before the SABC was on Strike.
The week before that the taxi's were on STRIKE.

It just keeps getting better and better.

In beautiful affluent areas like Hout Bay, squatter camps have sprung up like mushrooms. The rivers and ground water is full of human excrement and litter.

The Cape Flats now has gang wars. Street kids run around the downtown financial district of Cape Town after dark begging for money and looking for scraps to eat.

But as the previous thread mentions, it's ALL JUST PEACHY.

Farmers getting murdered....why it's just the WHITE press with an agenda.
Rampant crime and crumbling infrastructure......NOT TRUE....it's BETTER here than a first world country ????? 
Educated people (black and white) immigrating in DROVES....it's just nonsense,.....no-one is leaving because the mountain is too beautiful for words.
My little girl goes to a kindergarden and every week it's a new rash she's got from playing with the other kids of dubious upbringing.
But as a dad if I complain about this then I'm a racist.

I want South Africa to work, I really do,...but from where I'm sitting it's just not happening. I see a failing medical system, good education becoming a pipe dream especially in the public schools, rampant corruption in the legal system, unbelievable rudeness and arrogance towards minorities and other African immigrants, and a weak Rand where the average Joe is living paycheck to paycheck just to stay above water.

All those bikes, and boats and SUV's the other poster saw,...she must have been dreaming about her days back in the old USA,.....because like I said, everyone I know (Black and white) is battling here in Sunny South Africa.

I wish it wasn't so.


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## barocko7

Hi, I`m new to this Forum and just can`t believe the reality of so much crime, as some members have edited. What I do imagine is, that the crime rate would be more-or-less identical with the USA or other parts of the World.
It`s only normal that people take precautions in their everyday life the minute they close the front door and walk outside.
I simply believe it can`t be sooooo bad in SA! If it was, then there surely would`nt be so many immigrants coming to SA as they do.

I`ve also heard stories, that Snakes and all kinds of wild animals roam the streets & gardens within the communitys. Really???

My wife & I (retiring) will be relocating within the next two years to Somerset West or Strand (not sure yet which area) and I would greatly appreciate any helpful insider information about the economical situation (prices for food etc.), everyday life, the people, weather humidity in that area & social contact possibilitys with good people living there.

We look for the good in people - not the bad!

In Europe you have the clock - in South Africa the time!

Hoping to hear from you folks!
Mike


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## Daxk

Well.there's only one way to find out wether its safe to stay in SA, move there.
We've argued this one so much I'm not even going to start, just two small questions if I may:

Unseer, why are you living in such a cheap area of London? Thats the equivalent of living in one of Jhbg's worst low income areas?
Or are you saving money?

Bovinerebel, those 6 million tourists, the SA Tourist board figures said that about 4 million of those came from other parts of Africa, mostly Nigeria if I recall?

As to your comments that criticism of the Govt is racist, 
90% of the SA Govt happens to be Black, and they create most of of the grounds for criticism.
Or do you think that Carl Niehaus recently did'nt get criticised because he was white?
And no, I dont want apartheid back, and I do believe that the previous white govt was also corrupt, they just seemed to be better at not destroying everything else in the process.

Go people,one of two things will happen, nothing, or you will wish you had'nt ever heard of the place.


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## gkloken

DannyBoy said:


> Yes, it's really WONDERFUL here in Cape Town and South Africa.
> 
> Only last week the DOCTORS were on STRIKE.
> The week before the SABC was on Strike.
> The week before that the taxi's were on STRIKE.
> 
> It just keeps getting better and better.
> 
> In beautiful affluent areas like Hout Bay, squatter camps have sprung up like mushrooms. The rivers and ground water is full of human excrement and litter.
> 
> The Cape Flats now has gang wars. Street kids run around the downtown financial district of Cape Town after dark begging for money and looking for scraps to eat.
> 
> But as the previous thread mentions, it's ALL JUST PEACHY.
> 
> Farmers getting murdered....why it's just the WHITE press with an agenda.
> Rampant crime and crumbling infrastructure......NOT TRUE....it's BETTER here than a first world country ?????
> Educated people (black and white) immigrating in DROVES....it's just nonsense,.....no-one is leaving because the mountain is too beautiful for words.
> My little girl goes to a kindergarden and every week it's a new rash she's got from playing with the other kids of dubious upbringing.
> But as a dad if I complain about this then I'm a racist.
> 
> I want South Africa to work, I really do,...but from where I'm sitting it's just not happening. I see a failing medical system, good education becoming a pipe dream especially in the public schools, rampant corruption in the legal system, unbelievable rudeness and arrogance towards minorities and other African immigrants, and a weak Rand where the average Joe is living paycheck to paycheck just to stay above water.
> 
> All those bikes, and boats and SUV's the other poster saw,...she must have been dreaming about her days back in the old USA,.....because like I said, everyone I know (Black and white) is battling here in Sunny South Africa.
> 
> I wish it wasn't so.


 Which of these things you complain about is not happening in UK, Europe and especially here in the USA?

Why does no one ever complain about places like Zimbabwe or the crime ridden Nigeria for instance.

It is often said by the Moderaters on Expat Forum that "one need to get the whole perspective on every country". 

Hence "the reason" that South Africa was chosen to be the most criticized country on Expat Forums! 

What concerns me is that one rarely hear such vehement criticism on any other country hear on the Forum. 

And please do NOT come with the same old crap of "its only because SA is such a bad country and I never knew the critics experiences and children's exposures etcetera , etcetera". 

Even Apartheid, that is hammered to death and still will not die, especially since it is now reversed Apartheid in SA.

Apartheid is old hat and for everyone's information: 
Apartheid dates from long before SA gained its independence, even or should one say especially, mostly during British rule. It is on record in SA and other countries like India. Does anyone beat UK to death for all their crimes, strikes murders and more?

NO! Amazing isn't it . Wasn't it all about a balanced perspective then ? 

In 1900 the blacks had to walk with the horses and carriages on the dirt roads to be far enough away from the whites "from Europe" that was flooding SA and did not want to be contaminated. 

The same Apartheid was in existence in the USA during the slave era . Why then must one country be chosen to be the worst in every way. 

South Africa is no worse than any other country including the USA which also have negative health systems, crimes, strikes, War Lords, Gangs, Drugs you name it. 

I do not hear anyone on Expat Forum holding Germany's past mistakes against it now, or France, or Spain for that matter? 

I also believe in the Law of Attraction. 

Whatever your attitudes and believes are, is what you will experience in ANY country in the World. 

And NO I do not want to hear those same old " beaten to death" stories about your personal experiences, believes and opinions yet once again. 

Enough is ENOUGH!.

Just go and find another country to be the bad guy. 

South Africa has so much to offer anyone that come with a positive attitude, ready to see all the beauty and the richness of its diverse culture , the still vast open areas with animals still in abundance. 

Their friendly warm hearted people and the opportunities that exist.

Thank you South Africa you still are the Best, The Crown of Africa!


----------



## Daxk

so why are'nt you there? gloken?


----------



## Halo

Talk about rose coloured spectacles..... Wowsers.


----------



## apricot

Isn't ironic that most of those complaining about South Africa are either people living their or SA expats. Don't often see others complaining...

South Africa has become a cesspool and sadly for those who stay, it's better to be blase and try and live with the decrepid lifestyle than try and do something that is so futile.

I left SA ten years ago and have not been back. Also have no desire to. My memories are precious and I really don't want to replace them with all the squatter camps, exrement and filfth that one of the previous posters mention. By the heart, to that poster - my heart absolutely goes out to you. I know how worried you must be of your little girl, your future - and most of all your safety.

I wish you everything of the best.


----------



## Suki

BeautifulMystique said:


> Thank you Unseer and Bovinerebel for your posts!
> 
> I've been turned off by some of the negative posters but I've heard of such people you've mentioned. I mentioned to my BF what I have read here and he laughed his head off as he said some of the 'info' were over-exaggerated. He's white, btw and has no problem with whatever that is going on. Then again, maybe it's where he lives that has no problem such as those mentioned here and about on this board.
> 
> It's good to read the positive sides of South Africa. I'm excited as I've just browsed on a few really amazing looking guest houses and I cannot wait to get started!


No you wont get killed in the streets and it is not a war zone, however the threat of violoent crime is very real. Be aware that you will have to live behind bars. You will have to have security doors covering every door and burglar bars covering all your windows. Usually you will have a security front gate as well and your property will be completely walled in. An alarm system is recommedable and without one you wont be able to find a decent priced insurance. 

When driving, you are always aware of and on the look out for potential hijackers / nasty looking people, you must always ensure that there is space between you and the car ahead so that there is an escape route should someone start making an attempt to hijack you. Always be prepared to run a red traffic light at night if someone unsavoury approaches your car. It is also very popular for criminals to wait in suburban areas at night and once you drive through your electric gate into your driveway they slip in behind you before it closes. And be aware criminals in SA carry guns and USE them. It is not uncommon for people to be shot in their own homes by burglars. So before driving into your driveway it is advisable to look around first, if you see something/someone you dont like, drive around the block a few times. Rape is a very real issue in South Africa and a woman has most to fear from burglars/hi-jackers. When driving, always keep your handbag at your feet and any parcels in your boot to avoid smash and grabs. Most traffic lights are riddled with beggars, hawkers and street children. Smash & grabs are commonplace at traffic lights. Never, ever leave your mobile phone on the passenger seat! 

Of course when walking around also always be aware who is around you. 
Doing the 360 degree check is so ingrained into South Africans that we dont even realise we are doing it and my description above may sound exagerated but beleive me it is not. Most South Africans do this as second nature. 

Yes the weather is great, the landscapes are beautiful the outdoor lifestyle is wonderful but be prepared that you will always have to be security conscious to an extent that is not common in other countries.


----------



## Daxk

Good post,Suki.
Beautiful Mystique and the Husband who laughs.
As Suki (and I umpteen times )have said, what is described needs to become second nature.
which is fine if you have been doing it for years.
the problem is that you HAVE to remember to do it, everytime, just in case, and you wont even realise when you are NOT doing it, and thats where the danger creeps in.
its the dropping off te kids at the creche and for once the security Guard is'nt there and thinking I'm sure it'll be alright, its thinking it'll just be for a minute and skipping a routine.

I'm sure you have fetched South Africans from an Airport?
Whats the first thing they do when they get in the car?
Lock the doors!
Want to see them get really anxious? leave them in a car with a motor running and the doors open in the first day or two till they acclimatise to a safer Country? 
I think you mentioned that your husbands family left because of crime?
Yet he is anxious to get back there?


----------



## SABrits

apricot said:


> I am a South African (now living in the US). I miss my country - the beautiful landscape and wildlife - but will never move back there. Sadly South Africa boasts one of the highest crime rates in the world as well as one of the highest HIV infection rates. Murder, rape, hijacking - it's all part of many people's days in the country and it's a tragedy that the government refuses to see the problem.
> 
> The 2010 FIFA World Cup is being hosted in South Africa and FIFA has warned that they will move the venue if something doesn't happen to change the crime situation.


Actually no - the UK has beaten all those records. South Africa does NOT have the highest crime rate - see all the local papers here for the records


----------



## SABrits

gkloken said:


> Which of these things you complain about is not happening in UK, Europe and especially here in the USA?
> 
> Why does no one ever complain about places like Zimbabwe or the crime ridden Nigeria for instance.
> 
> It is often said by the Moderaters on Expat Forum that "one need to get the whole perspective on every country".
> 
> Hence "the reason" that South Africa was chosen to be the most criticized country on Expat Forums!
> 
> What concerns me is that one rarely hear such vehement criticism on any other country hear on the Forum.
> 
> And please do NOT come with the same old crap of "its only because SA is such a bad country and I never knew the critics experiences and children's exposures etcetera , etcetera".
> 
> Even Apartheid, that is hammered to death and still will not die, especially since it is now reversed Apartheid in SA.
> 
> Apartheid is old hat and for everyone's information:
> Apartheid dates from long before SA gained its independence, even or should one say especially, mostly during British rule. It is on record in SA and other countries like India. Does anyone beat UK to death for all their crimes, strikes murders and more?
> 
> NO! Amazing isn't it . Wasn't it all about a balanced perspective then ?
> 
> In 1900 the blacks had to walk with the horses and carriages on the dirt roads to be far enough away from the whites "from Europe" that was flooding SA and did not want to be contaminated.
> 
> The same Apartheid was in existence in the USA during the slave era . Why then must one country be chosen to be the worst in every way.
> 
> South Africa is no worse than any other country including the USA which also have negative health systems, crimes, strikes, War Lords, Gangs, Drugs you name it.
> 
> I do not hear anyone on Expat Forum holding Germany's past mistakes against it now, or France, or Spain for that matter?
> 
> I also believe in the Law of Attraction.
> 
> Whatever your attitudes and believes are, is what you will experience in ANY country in the World.
> 
> And NO I do not want to hear those same old " beaten to death" stories about your personal experiences, believes and opinions yet once again.
> 
> Enough is ENOUGH!.
> 
> Just go and find another country to be the bad guy.
> 
> South Africa has so much to offer anyone that come with a positive attitude, ready to see all the beauty and the richness of its diverse culture , the still vast open areas with animals still in abundance.
> 
> Their friendly warm hearted people and the opportunities that exist.
> 
> Thank you South Africa you still are the Best, The Crown of Africa!


And I agree..... Living in the UK away from 'it' all, and I am faced with crime, poverty and 'yobs'. Far too many health and safety laws. But then when you are away you learn to aprpeciate what you did have. 

Enjoy it and make the most of it. All countries have their fair share of issues


----------



## Daxk

SABrits, kindly post the comparison between the UK and SA Crime rates per 100,000 population iro of serious crime such as Murder/manslaughter/ and rape.
Kindly also post the UK Commissioner of Police's comm,ents regarding what Assault refers to in the UK,especially the meaning of the word "Affray"
After that would you mind posting the independent research by UNISA and the SA Law Society on firstly Detection rates (ie a crime is committed and someone is charged) and Conviction rates for the above crimes.
Thank you,


----------



## Daxk

Daxk said:


> so why are'nt you there? gloken?


Maybe SABrits may wish to answer too?


----------



## Halo

SABrits said:


> Actually no - the UK has beaten all those records. South Africa does NOT have the highest crime rate - see all the local papers here for the records


Huh? Please explain who does......


----------



## SABrits

Maybe you should read the papers! Article of July 2, 2009 and the EU rating of violent crime. In short, UK per 100,000 2.034 and then Austria 1.677 and the list continues and SA comes in with 1.609 in TROUBLESOME spots. Hope that helps! Oh and by the way this comes from an official EU report across WW countries incl USA. Should you wish more info on the report I will let you have the email address.


----------



## SABrits

Easy - UK, Austria, Sweden Belgium and the list continues until eventually you get to RSA.


----------



## SABrits

Is one not allowed to gain experience? Can you only do this if in SA? I thought you could gain experience anywhere in the world? Broaden your horizons you are taught at school.... well I have now been an expat for 25 years living in darkest Africa, been shot at, and I have experience!


----------



## Daxk

Daxk said:


> SABrits, kindly post the comparison between the UK and SA Crime rates per 100,000 population iro of serious crime such as Murder/manslaughter/ and rape.
> Kindly also post the UK Commissioner of Police's comm,ents regarding what Assault refers to in the UK,especially the meaning of the word "Affray"
> After that would you mind posting the independent research by UNISA and the SA Law Society on firstly Detection rates (ie a crime is committed and someone is charged) and Conviction rates for the above crimes.
> Thank you,


SABrits, Kindly post the exact comparisons of the crimes above,.
In addition, which part of SA is still darkest Africa unless you are referring to the Escom debacle?


----------



## Daxk

SABrits said:


> Maybe you should read the papers! Article of July 2, 2009 and the EU rating of violent crime. In short, UK per 100,000 2.034 and then Austria 1.677 and the list continues and SA comes in with 1.609 in TROUBLESOME spots. Hope that helps! Oh and by the way this comes from an official EU report across WW countries incl USA. Should you wish more info on the report I will let you have the email address.


I do read the papers, voraciously.
I'm not interested in the email, I would like the web address that says that SA has less murders and rapes per 100,000 population than the countries you mention above.
Could you also possibly explain why SA have released no crime stats for the past two and a half years?


----------



## Halo

Daxk - This chap has to be a stooge. Crime states are normally a few years behind but you can find "up-to-date" stats on the SA police website if you like. (It should be taken with a pinch of salt as in the UK, for example, assault can be if person a pushes person b)

Some Murder stats
Murders (per capita) statistics - countries compared - NationMaster
Murders with firearms (per capita) by country. Definition, graph and map.
Murders with firearms (per capita) by country. Definition, graph and map.
Rapes (per capita) by country. Definition, graph and map.


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## Daxk

Halo, unfortunately, The Department of Statistics who adjudicate the figures have qualified the results, there is a huge bunfight going on with SAPS Stations having proved to have falsified figures,lost documents,cancelled cases etc.

I wish it were true that Crime has come down, If it has and I am wrong, great!!
The next figure they have to work on is how many cases go to Court and how many result in convictions.


----------



## Halo

Daxk said:


> Halo, unfortunately, The Department of Statistics who adjudicate the figures have qualified the results, there is a huge bunfight going on with SAPS Stations having proved to have falsified figures,lost documents,cancelled cases etc.
> 
> I wish it were true that Crime has come down, If it has and I am wrong, great!!
> The next figure they have to work on is how many cases go to Court and how many result in convictions.


Surprise surprise.....


----------



## Jacobus (Jake)

*Crime stats*

Guys

It's sad that we have to debate which country has the highest crime rate. It is as though we are proud to have the highest rating.

South Africa has a moratorium on the publication of crime statsistics so the numbers are skewed. 

In my familly of 7, my sister-in-law (36) was gang raped and strangled to death with an electric cable in her home in Stellenbosch not far from Capetown, by three men who at the time were out on parole for a similar offence. My family and I were held at gunpoint in our own home in Pretoria, by four armed gunmen (one is an active member of the SA defence force) who loaded all our valuables in and drove off in our cars. These thugs wwere never caught. The incidents occured about 6 weeks apart. 

It is like buying a red car. Onse you own one you spot all other red cars. Well just about everey second person I met after our incident had a similar experience. Some were not lucky enough as we were to survive to tell the story.

Anyway, we are here in Australia now and love it. We need to help Australians appreciate what they have. Rececnt news reports show how quickly things can change.

Any comments?

Cheers
Jake


----------



## arnaud

Jacobus (Jake) said:


> Guys
> 
> It's sad that we have to debate which country has the highest crime rate. It is as though we are proud to have the highest rating.
> 
> South Africa has a moratorium on the publication of crime statsistics so the numbers are skewed.
> 
> In my familly of 7, my sister-in-law (36) was gang raped and strangled to death with an electric cable in her home in Stellenbosch not far from Capetown, by three men who at the time were out on parole for a similar offence. My family and I were held at gunpoint in our own home in Pretoria, by four armed gunmen (one is an active member of the SA defence force) who loaded all our valuables in and drove off in our cars. These thugs wwere never caught. The incidents occured about 6 weeks apart.
> 
> It is like buying a red car. Onse you own one you spot all other red cars. Well just about everey second person I met after our incident had a similar experience. Some were not lucky enough as we were to survive to tell the story.
> 
> Anyway, we are here in Australia now and love it. We need to help Australians appreciate what they have. Rececnt news reports show how quickly things can change.
> 
> Any comments?
> 
> Cheers
> Jake


This is your story. Others will tell you nothing happened to them in South Africa.
Please enjoy Australia and help Australians appreciate what they have. It is your freedom to choose another country. Make a difference, and let others make a difference in SA


----------



## Darko

arnaud, my thoughts and best wishes go out to you. It is truly horrible.


----------



## topcat83

rem said:


> ...I am on this forum ços I have been selected to apply for immigration to NZ and wants to find-out about NZ. I must say that I am leaving SA with a great deal of reluctance. I have to leave because of the high-tech nature of my work which means that I need to find more challenges.


Hi- I'm just peeking in from the NZ forum.

I know nothing about SA high-tech companies, but having worked in IT in NZ for the last 3 years I must ask - do you know for certain that NZ has more opportunities in this field? I've found NZ to be a tad behind other countries like the UK....



> As a matter of fact, having gone through the discussion on NZ forum, I doubt that leaving SA is a good idea. For instance in terms of crime, I understand that there were about 150000 burglaries in NZ last year, in a population of 4 million. Per-capita SA is nothing near that.


I can't argue the figures 'cos I don't know if they're true or not. All I can do is tell you what my (now 20 year old) son says.

He grew up in North-West London, UK - not the best of areas, but certainly not one of the worse. While a teenager he was a victim of crime (muggings) while out with his friends a number of times. His opinion of Auckland is 'yes, there are some problems, but compared to London they are a on a completely different (lesser) scale.'

Generally, outside of certain communities (these tend to be the 'low decile' areas) which have some gang problems then violent crime in particular is very low.



> Driving from Cape Town to J'burg ? That will be a matter of choice. I doubt that statistically, it is less safe than driving between London and Manchester.


....I can't think of any 'criminal' situation I'd worry about on the roads between London and Manchester - just the number of cars. I've become too used to NZ empty roads (LOL!)


----------



## Native Texan

I also never thought of South Africa as a place to live but after working in west africa, Saudi, Burma and India and visiting South Africa on many occasions, we decided we will retire there next year. It is a beautiful country with some large problems but also a large upside. Safety is an issue everywhere in first world countries. While working in Nigeria, we had no problems with crime while at the same time one of my former staff members in the USA was murdered in her home. While traveling through SA for several months, no problems with crime but the son of a co-worker back in Houston, was killed in a robbery. I have driven from Joburg to Durbin to Capetown with no bad experiences. I also drove from the Kruger to the Kalagadi Park and down through the Karoo to Hermanus with only good experience. I have found the SA people to be open and helpful in just about every situation I have found myself in. We are looking forward to our retirement and meeting new friends and enjoying the warm weather and wildlife when we start our new life there with no regrets.


----------



## Halo

Good Luck


----------



## Lotus1979

apricot said:


> I am a South African (now living in the US). I miss my country - the beautiful landscape and wildlife - but will never move back there. Sadly South Africa boasts one of the highest crime rates in the world as well as one of the highest HIV infection rates. Murder, rape, hijacking - it's all part of many people's days in the country and it's a tragedy that the government refuses to see the problem.
> 
> *The 2010 FIFA World Cup is being hosted in South Africa and FIFA has warned that they will move the venue if something doesn't happen to change the crime situation.*


Sorry , sorry but...

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha !


----------



## Lotus1979

Native Texan said:


> I also never thought of South Africa as a place to live but after working in west africa, Saudi, Burma and India and visiting South Africa on many occasions, we decided we will retire there next year. It is a beautiful country with some large problems but also a large upside. Safety is an issue everywhere in first world countries. While working in Nigeria, we had no problems with crime while at the same time one of my former staff members in the USA was murdered in her home. While traveling through SA for several months, no problems with crime but the son of a co-worker back in Houston, was killed in a robbery. I have driven from Joburg to Durbin to Capetown with no bad experiences. I also drove from the Kruger to the Kalagadi Park and down through the Karoo to Hermanus with only good experience. I have found the SA people to be open and helpful in just about every situation I have found myself in. We are looking forward to our retirement and meeting new friends and enjoying the warm weather and wildlife when we start our new life there with no regrets.


I was hijacked once...in Manila. I was beaten up once by a gang of thugs...in Bangkok. In South Africa over a period of 30 odd years I had my car radio stolen. 

Don't believe the hype. You live here now so you know better than anyone how these ex saffers can sure be drama queens.


----------



## Halo

I think you may be senile  or in the new "it happens everywhere brigade" - Then again... it was Bangkok.... what a hole.

PS Be thankful you were not a victim, may it long continue but to giving people a false picture of South Africa is irresponsible. (your experiences are not the benchmark)


----------



## Lotus1979

Halo said:


> I think you may be senile or in the new "it happens everywhere brigade" - Then again... it was Bangkok.... what a hole.


Halo , go get a pint of guiness and chill out. You really are one sour puss.

Bangkok is my second home BTW.


----------



## Halo

Lotus1979 said:


> Halo , go get a pint of guiness and chill out. You really are one sour puss.
> 
> Bangkok is my second home BTW.


Makes sense you want to move to SA..... I would to from Bangkok.


----------



## Lotus1979

Halo said:


> Makes sense you want to move to SA..... I would to from Bangkok.


No really. you come across as really bitter and miserable. Your post are rarely constructive or life affirming. Chill out guy.


----------



## jojo

Sadly the name calling again!! Thats the trouble with SA, when people disagree with each other, the nastiness starts - either verbal or physical!

Jo xxx


----------



## Lotus1979

jojo said:


> Sadly the name calling again!! Thats the trouble with SA, when people disagree with each other, the nastiness starts - either verbal or physical!
> 
> Jo xxx


Firstly, you admitted you don't know the first thing about S.A.

Secondly, if you're going to stop me making observations about how a fellow poster comes across in attitude, then you'll again be getting 3 posts a day on this board. We don't all have the taste for sanitised bland debate like you do. This forum is for us, the users, to enjoy in the manner in which we choose. Please don't assume you know what's best for us. 

He's a big boy. I'm sure he's perfectly fine with my observation that he comes across like a over active gall bladder.


----------



## jojo

Lotus1979 said:


> Firstly, you admitted you don't know the first thing about S.A.
> 
> Secondly, if you're going to stop me making observations about how a fellow poster comes across in attitude, then you'll again be getting 3 posts a day on this board. We don't all have the taste for sanitised bland debate like you do.
> 
> He's a big boy. I'm sure he's perfectly fine with my observation that he comes across like a over active gall bladder.



Quite frankly three posts a day are fine when they're informative and useful. Idle drivel with you banging on about how safe south africa is and others saying it isnt, doesnt really make it interesting reading at all - only for the three of you who are trying to out post each other. None of what you guys say will changed the way SA is viewed by the rest of the world

Jo xxx


----------



## Halo

Lotus1979 said:


> No really. you come across as really bitter and miserable. Your post are rarely constructive or life affirming. Chill out guy.


Gall Bladder Guy here...... 

1. It's quite the opposite (text is a strange medium to gauge personality)
2. Constructive for me is giving people looking to move REAL info.

Chilled..... Off to the beach soon, will climb into my unlocked car in my driveway.... drive on streets where people observer (for the most part) the laws of the road. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh :ranger:


----------



## Zimtony

Halo said:


> Gall Bladder Guy here......
> 
> 1. It's quite the opposite (text is a strange medium to gauge personality)
> 2. Constructive for me is giving people looking to move REAL info.
> 
> Chilled..... Off to the beach soon, will climb into my unlocked car in my driveway.... drive on streets where people observer (for the most part) the laws of the road. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh :ranger:




Similar here in southern Spain - right up to the point about abserving the rules of the road............... SPANISH DRIVERS!!! The young ones think they are Fernando Alonso and the old ones think they are still on donkeys!


----------



## jojo

Zimtony said:


> Similar here in southern Spain - right up to the point about abserving the rules of the road............... SPANISH DRIVERS!!! The young ones think they are Fernando Alonso and the old ones think they are still on donkeys!


...... and dont forget the aixum drivers or the kids on motos !!!!!!

Jo xxx


----------



## Zimtony

jojo said:


> ...... and dont forget the aixum drivers or the kids on motos !!!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Hells teeth! Don't get me started on them this early on a Saturday............:boxing::boxing:
And the parking? State of the roads? Lorry drivers?

At this rate I will talk myself into moving back to SA.......

:clap2:


----------



## Johanna

No matter what Lotus says about driving, it is a NIGHTMARE. Heard on the news yesterday that half , yes 50% of driving licenses in this country are FAKES or ILLEGAL....
No matter where you drive, and I live here too Lotus, Rooster and all your other names, taxis are a huge problem... as are the trucks that race etc.

Very few people abide by the speed limit, most drivers seem to be in such a hurry, why and wherefor I would not even try to understand.
If one compares the number of motorcars on the roads here to those in the UK and the number of accidents ( fatal even!) ... there is no comparison to be made. UK drivers are mostly very calm, give others and opportunity, something I have not really experienced here.

Sorry to put a damper on your posting Lotus , but the truth is the truth.

I cannot understand why people cannot abide by the rules and the law.

How many people were killed on our roads during the Easter holidays?


----------



## Daxk

Its a religous conspiracy, Johanna, it gets people to pray and brings them closer to god.


----------



## Lotus1979

Johanna said:


> No matter what Lotus says about driving, it is a NIGHTMARE. Heard on the news yesterday that half , yes 50% of driving licenses in this country are FAKES or ILLEGAL....
> No matter where you drive, and I live here too Lotus, Rooster and all your other names, taxis are a huge problem... as are the trucks that race etc.
> 
> Very few people abide by the speed limit, most drivers seem to be in such a hurry, why and wherefor I would not even try to understand.
> If one compares the number of motorcars on the roads here to those in the UK and the number of accidents ( fatal even!) ... there is no comparison to be made. UK drivers are mostly very calm, give others and opportunity, something I have not really experienced here.
> 
> Sorry to put a damper on your posting Lotus , but the truth is the truth.
> 
> I cannot understand why people cannot abide by the rules and the law.
> 
> How many people were killed on our roads during the Easter holidays?


If you think traffic in South Africa is bad then there are only two conclusions one can derive. One of which is bound to be true.

1) You have never left South Africa.
2) You live in JHB.


----------



## Johanna

Lotus1979 said:


> If you think traffic in South Africa is bad then there are only two conclusions one can derive. One of which is bound to be true.
> 
> 1) You have never left South Africa.
> 2) You live in JHB.


Both your conclusions are totally wrong


----------



## Native Texan

Worst traffic/drivers in the places I have lived.
1. India
2. Nigeria - lagos in particular.
3. Saudi - traffic isn't so bad but the drivers are in the in shala mode behind the wheel. 
4. Burma - just because the roads are so bad and packed with all sorts of things that move slower than an automobile.
5. South Africa - Traffic in the city can stack up but once in the rural areas you just need to look out for potholes and the occasional livestock wandering about. 
6. USA - Great national roadway system, gridlock at rush hour in the ciites and speed kills,
last year was the lowest death total since 1950 due to road accidents and that was still over 30,000, most due to drinking and driving.
I did find driving in Spain and Portugal to be very nice as well as in Australia.


----------



## Johanna

Native Texan said:


> Worst traffic/drivers in the places I have lived.
> 1. India
> 2. Nigeria - lagos in particular.
> 3. Saudi - traffic isn't so bad but the drivers are in the in shala mode behind the wheel.
> 4. Burma - just because the roads are so bad and packed with all sorts of things that move slower than an automobile.
> 5. South Africa - Traffic in the city can stack up but once in the rural areas you just need to look out for potholes and the occasional livestock wandering about.
> 6. USA - Great national roadway system, gridlock at rush hour in the ciites and speed kills,
> last year was the lowest death total since 1950 due to road accidents and that was still over 30,000, most due to drinking and driving.
> I did find driving in Spain and Portugal to be very nice as well as in Australia.


I also found driving in Canada excellent... even Norway despite all the tunnels and mountains.
The N1 in SA is notorius.......... going north or south.... and then some other main roads too.
Have you ever driven in Italy?


----------



## Johanna

These are figures from last year, I am sad to say:
• The 388km stretch between King Williamstown and Kokstad. Average incident rate is 7.65 per 10kms.
• The 35km stretch between Sandton in Gauteng and Pretoria (past Centurion and Midrand). Average incident rate is 48.29 per 10kms.
• The 54km stretch between Kingsburg and Tongaat in KwaZulu-Natal.
• The 102km stretch between Durban and Howick on the N3 is KwaZulu-Natal.

The above represents the worst of the worst in the country with the first two tying for the worst spot.

Please find listed below the worst five areas in the various provinces throughout the country as per an extract from the comprehensive table on the Arrive Alive website.


Gauteng

From To Road Distance Fatal Crashes Crashes per Km
Sandton Pretoria N1 35 169 48.29
Lenasia Germiston N12 48 122 25.42
Boksburg Daveyton N12 18 38 21.11
Heidelberg Bedfordview N3 51 107 20.98
Bedfordview Sandton N3 25 52 20.80

KwaZulu-Natal

From To Road Distance Fatal Crashes Crashes per Km
Kingsburg Tongaat N2 59 162 27.46
Durban Howick N3 102 178 17.45
Harding Winkelspruit N2 166 186 11.20
Stanger Hluhluwe N2 125 119 9.52
Pietermartizburg Richmond R56 30 23 7.67

Western Cape


From To Road Distance Fatal Crashes Crashes per Km
Cape Town Worcester N1 91 156 17.36
Knysna Plettenburg Bay N2 27 39 14.44
Cape Town Somerset West N2 42 55 13.10
Somerset West Rivier-sonderend N2 71 69 9.72
Cape Town Citrusdal N7 161 101 6.27

Eastern Cape

From To Road Distance Fatal Crashes Crashes per Km
King Williamstown Kokstad N2 388 279 7.65
Umtata Port St Johns R61 89 54 6.07
Plettenburg Bay King Williamstown N2 329 156 4.74
Fort Beaufort King Williamstown R63 88 39 4.43
Port St Johns Port Edward R61 201 87 4.33

Free State


From To Road Distance Fatal Crashes Crashes per Km
Harrismith Villiers N3 145 129 8.90
Heilbron Sasolburg R57 55 27 4.91
Bloemfontein Ladybrand N8 125 50 4.00
Bloemfontein Vaal River N1 352 111 3.15

Mpumalanga


From To Road Distance Fatal Crashes Crashes per Km
Witbank Waterval Boven N4 98 109 11.12
Waterval Boven Hectorspruit N4 162 105 6.48
Springs Witbank N12 98 59 6.02
Volksrust Greylingstad R23 139 83 5.97
Barberton Hazyview R40 88 47 5.34

North West Province


From To Road Distance Fatal Crashes Crashes per Km
Stilfontein Lenasia N12 57 11 19.47
Rustenburg Magaliesburg R24 46 47 10.22
Lobatse Hartebeesport N4 175 146 8.34
Nnbatho Zeerust R49 68 42 6.18
Bloemhof Stilfontein N12 169 62 3.67
Limpopo


From To Road Distance Fatal Crashes Crashes per Km
Maubane Polokwane N1 210 138 6.57
Polokwane Namanmakgale R71 144 138 6.57
Polokwane Nusina N1 263 97 3.69
Polokwane Burgersfort R37 149 43 2.89
Origstad Tzaneen R36 138 201.45 

Northern Cape

From To Road Distance Fatal Crashes Crashes per Km
Kimberley Warrenton N12 47 30 6.38
Barkley West Kimberley R31 32 10 3.13
Groblershoop Upington N10 102 20 1.96
Three Sisters Colesberg N1 305 54 1.77
Springbok Vioolsdrift N7 118 18 1.53

The bottom line – it’s not always about how we drive, but also how others drive and how we interact with those others.


----------



## Zimtony

Clearly things on roads are always dodgy! In a lot of countries!!!

I can only assume that native American, when driving in Spain was, a) a passenger on a coach or b) only drove on a motorway!I have driven in many countries of the world and Spain is right up there with the worst drivers! The N340 coast road is offically the worst road in Europe for motor related deaths................... and that is actually not a bad road!


----------



## jojo

Zimtony said:


> Clearly things on roads are always dodgy! In a lot of countries!!!
> 
> I can only assume that native American, when driving in Spain was, a) a passenger on a coach or b) only drove on a motorway!I have driven in many countries of the world and Spain is right up there with the worst drivers! The N340 coast road is offically the worst road in Europe for motor related deaths................... and that is actually not a bad road!


The slip roads onto the N340 and the A7 are a giant leap of faith tho - do you slow down and wait for a break in the traffic or do you put your foot down and hope you can just slip in between the 2 foot gap between two cars that just arent going to change lanes for you!?

I have to say that I think the UK has the safest roads in the world. All road markings and signs are made crystal clear and most cars are in good condition and are driven safely - pretty much!

Jo xxx


----------



## Johanna

jojo said:


> The slip roads onto the N340 and the A7 are a giant leap of faith tho - do you slow down and wait for a break in the traffic or do you put your foot down and hope you can just slip in between the 2 foot gap between two cars that just arent going to change lanes for you!?
> 
> I have to say that I think the UK has the safest roads in the world. All road markings and signs are made crystal clear and most cars are in good condition and are driven safely - pretty much!
> 
> Jo xxx


You will make a good living as a taxi driver here!


----------



## jojo

Johanna said:


> You will make a good living as a taxi driver here!


Well it took me eleven attempts to pass my test in the UK so...........!!!?:eyebrows:

Jo xxx


----------



## Johanna

jojo said:


> Well it took me eleven attempts to pass my test in the UK so...........!!!?:eyebrows:
> 
> Jo xxx


If you have enough cash, I may be able to get you a license! :tongue1::tongue1::tongue1:


----------



## Lotus1979

jojo said:


> The slip roads onto the N340 and the A7 are a giant leap of faith tho - do you slow down and wait for a break in the traffic or do you put your foot down and hope you can just slip in between the 2 foot gap between two cars that just arent going to change lanes for you!?
> 
> I have to say that I think the UK has the safest roads in the world. All road markings and signs are made crystal clear and most cars are in good condition and are driven safely - pretty much!
> 
> Jo xxx


It's also a cold, dreary, over expensive, neo fascist nanny state. But some people are easily pleased I suppose.


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## Veronica

Lotus1979 said:


> It's also a cold, dreary, over expensive, neo fascist nanny state. But some people are easily pleased I suppose.


Arn't you the charmer


----------



## Lotus1979

Veronica said:


> Arn't you the charmer


Hey, I didn't have anything to do with making the U.K a horrible, almost unlivable hell hole. Don't blame me.



PS : Aren't.


----------



## Veronica

Like I said, a real charmer


----------



## Lotus1979

Veronica said:


> Like I said, a real charmer


:focus:


----------



## Johanna

Lotus1979 said:


> PS : Aren't.


Called a typo , didn't you know? :confused2:


----------



## Zimtony

Lotus1979 said:


> Hey, I didn't have anything to do with making the U.K a horrible, almost unlivable hell hole. Don't blame me.
> 
> 
> 
> PS : Aren't.


Are you sure? lol!


----------



## Lotus1979

Zimtony said:


> Are you sure? lol!


Sheesh. Blame me for that autrocity ? Low blow man.


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## Veronica

Atrocity  Oh of course its a typo.


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## Zimtony

Lotus1979 said:


> Sheesh. Blame me for that autrocity ? Low blow man.


hahaha!! True - sort of blames itself!

ps: atrocity!!


----------



## Lotus1979

Veronica said:


> Atrocity  Oh of course its a typo.


In the wisdom of Mark Twain : I don't give a damn about a man who can only spell a word one way.


----------



## Veronica

Lotus1979 said:


> In the wisdom of Walt Whitman : I pity the man who can only spell a word one way.


If you can't take it don't dish it out.


----------



## Zimtony

Veronica said:


> If you can't take it don't dish it out.


I am sure he can take it Veronica, just don't give him the lines or be prepared for the ride!


----------



## Veronica

Zimtony said:


> I am sure he can take it Veronica, just don't give him the lines or be prepared for the ride!


I think it will be him taking the ride not me


----------



## Lotus1979

Zimtony said:


> I am sure he can take it Veronica, just don't give him the lines or be prepared for the ride!




Yup.


----------



## Halo

Lotus1979 said:


> It's also a cold, dreary, over expensive, neo fascist nanny state. But some people are easily pleased I suppose.


Must be why so many South Africans are trying to move there.


----------



## Saartjie

Ok, so I know this thread has been going for ages and most has probably been said. I moved here in August last year from the UK where I had lived for the past 12 years and I absolutely love it here. Of course, I hate having to deal with anything official like visas and passports as to try to get anything done here is very tiresome and frustrating but everything else here makes up for it. South Africa is a wonderful country with all it's faults and I salute anyone who stays or who returns or relocates here as to give up on this wonderful country would be a real shame. As I said I have lived in the UK and I have also tried Oz but nothing measures up to SA. Anyway I am sure many disagrees and will quote crime statistics and road deaths etc etc and I am of course aware of all this but it still would not make me want to leave.
Hope everyone is having a fab day wherever you are in the world.


----------



## jojo

Lotus1979 said:


> It's also a cold, dreary, over expensive, neo fascist nanny state. But some people are easily pleased I suppose.


I'm sure you're right. But I was talking about the road system, not the weather, cost of living or politics!!

Jo x


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## EthenGroom

Hi 

I am a South African still iving in South Africa. I can safely say that Durban and Cape Town are great places to live in. 

Yes, there is crime and strikes in South Africa but it is not out of control and there is crime and strikes everywhere else in the world. 

Crime is an issue in South Africa, but Cape Town and Durban are very safe, one just needs to take the normal precautions that one would take in any other country.
Cape Town has great beaches and scenery. Durban also not only has great beaches and scenery and has great weather as it is summer forever.

South Africa has a wonderful mix of races, cultures and friendly people.


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## Johanna

EthenGroom said:


> Hi
> 
> I am a South African still iving in South Africa. I can safely say that Durban and Cape Town are great places to live in.


 Do you still plan on becoming an expat in Oz?


----------



## EthenGroom

*Relocation*

Hi Synthia 


Very often it is only once people have moved into their homes that they realise that they may have chosen the wrong location. In all the excitement of finding and moving into a new house, homeowners often disregard one of the most important parts of any property deal. “While it is commonly heard that location is everything in business, the same can be said for a home. Families need to assess their needs and find a home that caters for those requirements. While people with young families often move closer to good schools, very often little attention is paid to the other amenities in the area. People have different needs and what is going to appeal to one, isn’t going to appeal to another. Those will small children are more likely to look at quieter neighbourhoods with little traffic, while older buyers may consider the proximity of shopping centres, hospitals and other factors before buying a home.


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## hechizero

*Uk is fine for some*

The UK may have a decent road system, but that doesn't count for much if never get above 40kmph... And that in a nutshell defines pretty much EVERYTHING in the UK - great on paper but in reality...

This summary is just a note to current Saffas thinking that SA is on the slide and the UK is a prime destination:

1) Free health service - many people call it a "free" health system. Guys, you get taxed 12% of your salary every month that cover this and your pension (and that is above income tax). So not exactly free is it?
2) NHS quality - the majority of hospitals in and around London are a pit. The maternity wards particularly poor. Most of the staff are foreign and cleanliness is a major concern.
3) Private health - Bupa being the main organisation supplying private health services outside of the NHS. Effectively you pay for healthcare twice if you go this route - sound familiar anyone?
4) VAT - 20% SAY NO MORE!!!
5) Summer  - 2 months (if you are lucky). The cumulative effect of this is that loads of people stay indoors for much of the year. It takes a strong will to remain outdoorsy (If that is your thing).
6) Corruption - MP's expenses scandal? Gordon Brown selling vast bullion stocks at historically low price? Banking collapse? Trust me, corruption in the UK and Europe is conducted on a large scale and is justified throughout. There is no less shame than those being corrupt in SA, only a little more finesse.
7) Politics - In a two party state you choose your poison...the media makes governments here. Whoever wins rolls you over a barrel one way or the other. (Let’s not talk about rape either – what the heck just happened with Strauss Khan...not British, but you get the point)
8) Sociability - Say what now? Inward looking nation that seeks acquaintances rather than friends. People live here their whole lives and never have regular friends that visit. Talk about living in bubbles; I have NEVER seen anywhere in the world where this is more true than in the UK.
9) Crime – Aug 2011 riots anyone? Ok, other than our street had 1 robbery in the last ten years. So yes, the chance of crime/violent crime is quite low. Having said that the yob culture is everywhere and its main driver is petty crime and intimidation. It is hard to explain to a Saffa how yob culture dominates large parts of the UK but I will say this, you will see it and you will not like it and you will realise is that it could easily morph into something more serious if the conditions arose, which was nicely illustrated by the riots.
10) Education – This depends very much on the money you have. If you can afford to live in an expensive area you get better schools – the same all around the world! What I will say is that general government schooling on average is good, only good mind you. Sport unfortunately always gets hurt in the education budget.
11) Lifestyle – More money, more lifestyle. There is not one thing on this muddy island that does not require you to put a hand in your pocket. There is something incumbently nasty about this place where humans are treated as nothing more than “consumers” – You are the product!
12) Children – Guys, the UK came last in a survey of 21 wealthy nations in terms of quality of life for children. Children suffer both mentally and physically. Please Google "children quality of life uk" and look at the first result from the Independent - That should give you some comfort that things are not bad for SA kids.

SA is developing country that is trying to put the past behind it. There are bad elements but the truth is they have always been there. There is hope and there is something to build towards. The grass in not much greener anywhere else. However if being safe and anonymous is your thing, come to the UK!

P.S. some of the ritual SA bashers on this forum are somewhat shameful and considering they are mostly living elsewhere; should probably get on with their lives...


----------



## jojo

hechizero said:


> P.S. some of the ritual SA bashers on this forum are somewhat shameful and considering they are mostly living elsewhere; should probably get on with their lives...



......... and you live?????

A very long post and while I dont necessarily disagree with you, your comments are very subjective and very much depend on where you live in the UK and your expectations, I know its is far from perfect, but it does tend to look after the people who live there - to its detriment!

Jo xxx


----------



## hechizero

jojo said:


> ......... and you live?????
> 
> A very long post and while I dont necessarily disagree with you, your comments are very subjective and very much depend on where you live in the UK and your expectations, I know its is far from perfect, but it does tend to look after the people who live there - to its detriment!
> 
> Jo xxx



To be fair Jo most of your posts are pretty subjective also , and you also tend to fuel the SA bashers somewhat. BTW you are in Spain...oh the life of an expat eh? It must have been a tough choice to leave the UK 

I moved to the UK for a work oppourtunity but unfortunately have not managed to settle well after a number of years. So yes, ones view of the world is a very personal thing and that is why it is a shame a lot of people that have left SA trawl all the expat sites trying to influence people negatively against SA. As my post shows, if you just focus on the negative EVERY country in the world can seem pretty dire. Capiche?


----------



## Daxk

hechizero said:


> To be fair Jo most of your posts are pretty subjective also , and you also tend to fuel the SA bashers somewhat. BTW you are in Spain...oh the life of an expat eh? It must have been a tough choice to leave the UK
> 
> I moved to the UK for a work oppourtunity but unfortunately have not managed to settle well after a number of years. So yes, ones view of the world is a very personal thing and that is why it is a shame a lot of people that have left SA trawl all the expat sites trying to influence people negatively against SA. As my post shows, if you just focus on the negative EVERY country in the world can seem pretty dire. Capiche?


Oh Goody! a live one.
just curious, of all the Countries in the world , why did you choose the UK?


----------



## hechizero

Daxk said:


> Oh Goody! a live one.
> just curious, of all the Countries in the world , why did you choose the UK?


Lol. All the resident locals on this site really get stuck in don't they. I had a job oppourtunity I could not pass up. I must admit I genuinely wanted to test the waters to see if the UK would be for me and my family. Well five years passed and I think my time here is up as I cannot contemplate another five years in the UK!


----------



## Halo

hechizero said:


> Lol. All the resident locals on this site really get stuck in don't they. I had a job oppourtunity I could not pass up. I must admit I genuinely wanted to test the waters to see if the UK would be for me and my family. Well five years passed and I think my time here is up as I cannot contemplate another five years in the UK!


So why go back to SA ?


----------



## jojo

hechizero said:


> To be fair Jo most of your posts are pretty subjective also , and you also tend to fuel the SA bashers somewhat. BTW you are in Spain...oh the life of an expat eh? It must have been a tough choice to leave the UK
> 
> I moved to the UK for a work oppourtunity but unfortunately have not managed to settle well after a number of years. So yes, ones view of the world is a very personal thing and that is why it is a shame a lot of people that have left SA trawl all the expat sites trying to influence people negatively against SA. As my post shows, if you just focus on the negative EVERY country in the world can seem pretty dire. Capiche?


Actually I'm back in the UK right now, have been for a couple of months and not happy about it. I dont like it here, mainly the weather and the depressing, downtrodden atmosphere. I love Spain. However, the UK does have some good points, which shouldnt be overlooked. and I dont necessarily agree with all your "observations". One things for sure, Spain is a lot harder and harsher than the UK

My views on SA arent tainted by forums, I dont think there are people who go around forums deliberately berating it - they dont need to, the worlds media does an excellent job of doing that, they make it sound an horrendous place, which I'm sure it isnt??!! The point is we all find different things about countries that we either like or dislike. In the end we have to make the best of what we have and where we are

Jo xxx


----------



## Daxk

hechizero said:


> Lol. All the resident locals on this site really get stuck in don't they. I had a job oppourtunity I could not pass up. I must admit I genuinely wanted to test the waters to see if the UK would be for me and my family. Well five years passed and I think my time here is up as I cannot contemplate another five years in the UK!


Stuck in? where? I asked a normal civil question. 
and all my questions are normal civil ones, and I expect the same in reply.
As I basically did the same thing as you but to Ireland, when you did your research, did it involve weather?
I assume you knew that the UK cannot compare to SA or even the Med Countries, never mind parts f the USA and the Antipodes?
yet you went.

The Brits, for as long as I've been on earth have been known to be reserved,
stand offish, not to allow people into their personal space easily, and that is what I learnt in SA.

as to a yob culture,would you classify some of the people in the lower class suburbs in SA (every city has one) taht I as a younger person used to look down on?

In Jhbg, the east rand or Southern Suburbs were considered beneath those who grew up in the Northern Suburbs.

Or do you find a Yob culture in the more expensive suburbs/dormitory villages like Sussex or Somerset?

What I personally found about a lot of SA expats in the UK, was that they were just that.
Visitors.
they hung out together, lived in areas where other expats (who were mostly two year extended to four or five to get some International on the CV) saved like crazy, lived in places like Wimbledon, and mostly only mixed other Saffers.

Their attitude was a maybe? but it was never Home, that was 6000 miles away.

It was what we called the Brit Expats who came to SA, Souties, one leg in SA and the other in the Motherland.
they constantly spoke about " going Hime"
Then we had a bunch of Rhodesians, and they were called "whenwe's" 
remember those?
a lot of them could not adapt either.

because the one thing I've learnt about being an expat, unless you are 110% committed, dont leave.
if you are unhappy in your new home after 5 years, dont go anywhere else, go where home is.
because you will never be happy anywhere else.

Thats whats right for you, and I wont criticise you for it.

And in the same vein, if its not right for me, but its still my Country and not my home, and I still have Family there, and I still have investments and still pay taxes there, then I have EVERY right to criticise its failings.

and neither you nor anyone else has the right to make disparaging remarks or criticise me for it.

So do yourself a favour, go home.if you have another passport other than the mamba, renounce it, go home and make it work and never leave again, no matter how much SA might have changed in 5 years or ten or twenty.

Deal?



w


----------



## hechizero

Halo said:


> So why go back to SA ?


Because those are my people and I believe there is a future there somehwere. To be fair the country is changing fast, some for the bettter, some for the worse. Do you think it would be a mistake?


----------



## hechizero

Daxk said:


> Stuck in? where? I asked a normal civil question.
> and all my questions are normal civil ones, and I expect the same in reply.
> As I basically did the same thing as you but to Ireland, when you did your research, did it involve weather?
> I assume you knew that the UK cannot compare to SA or even the Med Countries, never mind parts f the USA and the Antipodes?
> yet you went.
> 
> The Brits, for as long as I've been on earth have been known to be reserved,
> stand offish, not to allow people into their personal space easily, and that is what I learnt in SA.
> 
> as to a yob culture,would you classify some of the people in the lower class suburbs in SA (every city has one) taht I as a younger person used to look down on?
> 
> In Jhbg, the east rand or Southern Suburbs were considered beneath those who grew up in the Northern Suburbs.
> 
> Or do you find a Yob culture in the more expensive suburbs/dormitory villages like Sussex or Somerset?
> 
> What I personally found about a lot of SA expats in the UK, was that they were just that.
> Visitors.
> they hung out together, lived in areas where other expats (who were mostly two year extended to four or five to get some International on the CV) saved like crazy, lived in places like Wimbledon, and mostly only mixed other Saffers.
> 
> Their attitude was a maybe? but it was never Home, that was 6000 miles away.
> 
> It was what we called the Brit Expats who came to SA, Souties, one leg in SA and the other in the Motherland.
> they constantly spoke about " going Hime"
> Then we had a bunch of Rhodesians, and they were called "whenwe's"
> remember those?
> a lot of them could not adapt either.
> 
> because the one thing I've learnt about being an expat, unless you are 110% committed, dont leave.
> if you are unhappy in your new home after 5 years, dont go anywhere else, go where home is.
> because you will never be happy anywhere else.
> 
> Thats whats right for you, and I wont criticise you for it.
> 
> And in the same vein, if its not right for me, but its still my Country and not my home, and I still have Family there, and I still have investments and still pay taxes there, then I have EVERY right to criticise its failings.
> 
> and neither you nor anyone else has the right to make disparaging remarks or criticise me for it.
> 
> So do yourself a favour, go home.if you have another passport other than the mamba, renounce it, go home and make it work and never leave again, no matter how much SA might have changed in 5 years or ten or twenty.
> 
> Deal?
> 
> 
> 
> w


I hear you. Fair comments and accurate observations. I made an effort to not to be part of the SA London clique. I wanted to live with English people to experience and try to understand the culture a little. I feel there has been enough commitment, we have integrated into society as much as possible. In the end there is still something lacking. The life here does not seem to have a "soul" if that is the right expression. I know SA life does.


----------



## Halo

hechizero said:


> Because those are my people and I believe there is a future there somehwere. To be fair the country is changing fast, some for the bettter, some for the worse. Do you think it would be a mistake?


I don't have all the facts but all I can say is that SA will not improved over the next 30 years... and that is the period where I need to ensure my kids (and family) have opportunity.

Some will live in SA and have wealth and health and will not be affected by crime but for the vast majority, life is not that rosy.

The "my people" comment bothers me... it shows me you never adapted or embraced your new county (the UK) - Patriotism is DEAD or it should be as its mostly misguided and people dream of a bygone era...... Be it SA or the UK.

It 2011 -> Move on and wake up to whats happening in the world - Good luck.


----------



## Daxk

I think I'm going to continue this one in The Shebeen


----------



## RPV17

SA saddens me in that one half live with blindfolds on while the remainder pay the price dearly for crime. Having been born and bred here I cannot wait to depart. Hijackings; break-ins; assaults; abductions; family murdered.... it is beyond fair and just. The system has no law and order and NO for those not living in the Cape, the situation is treacherous. 

Child trafficking is at extreme proportions and women being raped is even worse. It is obscene to think that the manner of resolving any labour disputes is to strike and kill people as well as destroy property... 

My advice is to leave these shores before the fat strikes the fire. It is untenable for people to continue living in a lawless godless society that thrives in crimes perpetrated for the sake of fun.


----------



## MissGlobal

While a lot of what you've mentioned has some truth - it really isn't fair to just register to blast the country. Posts like these are inflammatory at best.


----------



## Daxk

Miss Global, I dont think there is some truth in that post.
I think its all true.
The majority of your posters here are other Country expats who are either considering a move or in process of moving and working in SA.
I think and feel strongly that they should be aware of the dangers and pitfalls rather than being blinded by the bright sunshine and extra white smiles.


----------



## shumifan49

we all strive for 'the best quality of life', but rarely define exactly what that means. 
Here are a few factors that affect it:
1. Family and friends
2. Children's future
3. Climate
4. Cost of living vs income
5. Safety
6. Lifestyle

1. Family and friends. When you move to a foreign country, family and friends are left behind, but new ones are made, however, this can be difficult in some societies.
2. Children's future. This is always a BIG consideration. I left RSA 20 years ago to try and provide a better future in Europe for my daughter. Instead the welfare system in the UK turned her into a useless burden on society. So don't always think other countries provide a better future for your children; there are many factors that affect it.
3. Climate. This plays a big part in health and happiness. The long grey winter days in the UK are extremely depressing.
4. Cost of living vs income. Money is not everything, but this ratio will determone how well or badly you survive. The higher the ratio the less you worry and the more enjoyable 'things' you can afford.
5. Safety. This depends on your lifestyle. If you are a person that loves being at home and don;t go out much, it does not matter too much if crime is rampant as you can protect your home environment. If you enjoy going out, then crime has a much greater impact.
6. Lifestyle. Major changes in lifestyle can be stressful. So this can have a major impact on your quality of life if you have to drastically change your lifestyle.

Personally I no longer have dependent children, so I am moving back to RSA to be close to family and friends. However, I am keeping significant investment in Europe so if things go bad, I can run away easily. I am looking forward to outdoor life, but am acutely aware of the crime situation and will try to deal with it as best as I can. If I needed to earn a living in RSA I might have reconsidered my decision as I am white and therefore employment opportunities will be few. I should be able to afford to live in a good area (unfortunately it has to be in Jo'burg) so that will help.

But in the end you have to do your research YOURSELF and decide what is important to YOU. Many of the posts on here are like justifications for the decisions the poster has made and therefore ignore all the things that work against the decision. 
In very few cases is the decision of which country to live in simple - there are always complications. Try to find out as much as possible before you decide. Know what your income will be. Know where you are likely to live. Establish the cost of living in the area. Establish crime rates in the area. Check the schools available and costs. Consider your medical situation, especially if you have long term illnesses. Check available entertainment suits you. And so the list goes on.


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## Daxk

excellent post, Shumifan.


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## MissGlobal

Daxk said:


> Miss Global, I dont think there is some truth in that post.
> I think its all true.
> The majority of your posters here are other Country expats who are either considering a move or in process of moving and working in SA.
> I think and feel strongly that they should be aware of the dangers and pitfalls rather than being blinded by the bright sunshine and extra white smiles.


I have no qualms with people highlighting the problems. I've done the same myself. All I'm saying is that this is more of a troll post than anything else.... I would never suggest we hide and paint just a rosy picture. I too recently left because of some of these factors as well as other ones.....


I guess I have issue with the "Hi , My name is XYZ - SA Sucks Run with your life while you still have it " posts....


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## Halo

Problem 1: Most Afrikaners cannot integrate and move for safety and economic reason but once they have enough $$ to live the dream in SA (behind the wall) and their kids have European passports they move back. (they miss the Bles Bridges 12" remixes)
Solution 1: There are other places with Sun and "the lifestyle" besides SA if you don't like the UK but its goes back to Problem 1: and the inability or lack of drive to get there.


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## MissGlobal

shumifan49 said:


> 5. Safety. This depends on your lifestyle. If you are a person that loves being at home and don;t go out much, it does not matter too much if crime is rampant as you can protect your home environment. If you enjoy going out, then crime has a much greater impact.
> 6. Lifestyle. Major changes in lifestyle can be stressful. So this can have a major impact on your quality of life if you have to drastically change your lifestyle.


Hey Shumi this is the one point I'll disagree with you on. Staying at home isn't a plausible crime avoidance tactic in SA where home invasions are rampant. Even my parents were victims of a violent home invasion and my dad ended up shot in the arm. Fortunately no one died in that attack or was raped - but still .... I think hiding behind high walls, armed response, and electrified fences doesn't necessarily provide the perceived security it appears to in SA - although it's a necessity to reduce your risk.


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## shumifan49

It is impossible to totally negate crime; even here in the UK. All I was highlighting is that you are more exposed if you are continuously out and about vs spending more time at home. You can make attacking your home more difficult and so make it a less likely target. It does not mean somebody might not try.
Some considerations to make your home safer:
1. Armed response/security is a must. That was even true 20 years ago.
2 Many households in SA have domestic help and this could be another way of lowering your exposure: do your domestic work yourself as it means your house cannot be 'cased' from inside.
3. Be aware of what goes on around you. If you approach your driveway and there are people lingering that you don't recognise or a car behind you, go around the block again.
4. Have video systems to identify callers before you let them in.
5. Ensure your alarm system has a personal emergency clicker and keep it with you at all times.

At least the slaughter of children at schools is not endemic, nor shooting sprees in shopping malls. There is very little sectarian violence. These things are impossible to mitigate the risk. At least in RSA you mostly have to cope with crime.


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## MissGlobal

I'd like to see if you share the same opinion after living there for a few years. I just knew way too many people who had your perspective and approach and still had home invasions ( in their gated communities  no less ). Not saying SA is horrible - but I've lived in some interesting places - but I've never felt at unease at home as I have there... even with all of the security measures we took....

I hate some of the random crimes in the US - but the odds of being a victim are still so much lower at the end of the day....


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## Native Texan

Going on three years now and still loving living in SA. The problems of crime, traffic and corruption are still here, they will be for some time I think. The roads are better in some places and worse in others and the e-tolls are a disaster. Living in a small town is different from most posters here who tend to live in the bigger cities. I have no bars on my windows, no security system in the house and rarely lock the doors unless we are all away for the day. I have found the people here to be pretty much the same as other countries I have lived in, some are friendly some distant but none that caused me to fear for my safety simply by their presence. With the favorable exchange rate we have been able to live a lot more comfortably than we would have been able to in the USA. I don't regret a day since moving here and have never even considered a move back to the US. It's a beautiful place with some wonderful people, not perfect but then no place is.


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## MissGlobal

Now I will hand you that - the small town life is very different from the metropolitan life in SA. And yes if you are earning dollars than your cost of living will be extremely favorable. However - I'm not a small town girl and wouldn't dare live in a small town even in the USA hehehe


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## shumifan49

I have 15 family households and countless friend's households in the eastern, western and northern suburbs of Jo'burg. One of them has been burgled at night, but he has no security system or armed response and 3 foot fences around the property - I am surprised he has not been burgled many times as it seems like an invitation for trouble. The rest have never been 'invaded', hi-jacked, held up at gun point.
So for any anecdotal bad experience there is also the corresponding good experience.

A I said in a previous post, quality of life includes safety, but is by no means is safety the only criteria.

@missglobal:
I was in Boston many years ago and the thing that scared the h...l out of me was the number of locks on my hotel room door (6 top to bottom) - I have never seen that in any other country I have been to. As far as the USA is concerned: my observation is that there are areas that are as bad, if not worse, than the cities in RSA. 
The level of corruption is not great either - we see the news here every so often. The UK is not great either. Paedophilia, expenses, illegal lobbying - all in Westminster. 

Every country that has a huge wealth gap suffer serious crime, especially when a good part of the population can barely afford to eat. And the target of most of the crime will be the better off as that is where best value for risk is.


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## MissGlobal

Oh there are plenty of North East cities in the USA I wouldn't live in. I've lived in a few that I swore I'd never go back to. Of course one plus the USA has is simply size - there are a lot more cities with the same amenities to choose from. So you can find one where your income bracket, amenities, and desired cost of living find a balance. Smaller countries don't offer that same flexibility / variety. Corruption - well - I always get into trouble for my attitude on that. I believe all politicians are corrupt. However in SA - they don't even pretend to be otherwise which is why it's so jarring. I can live with the semblance of rule of law. What I can't handle is blatant disregard - because if the gate keepers don't keep up appearances - who will LOL.

And yes - I completely agree with you - the income gaps are a huge factor of what's going on. And that holds true anywhere. When people have nothing they behave like there's nothing to lose....


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## shumifan49

The blatant corruption of RSA politicians is no more jarring than the blatant double standards of the West/Nato/EU. At least it is just motivated by plain greed and they learned well from their western counterparts.

Look at the devastation caused with tax payer money in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Kosova and the support for Israel slaughtering the Palestinians. And now Russia is the bad boy in Ukraine, when the EU is the creeping land grabber by the back door. Hopefully the UK will leave the EU in 2017 if we get the promised referendum, but even that will not stop the power greedy warmongers in Westminster and elsewhere. At least the RSA don't sponsor these atrocities.

This what I mean by there are many things that affect the decision of which country to live in.

Please note that I am not a Muslim, I am a Christian and very Western in my attitudes, but with a huge sense of fairness.


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## deborah13

*To Native Texan*



Native Texan said:


> Going on three years now and still loving living in SA. The problems of crime, traffic and corruption are still here, they will be for some time I think. The roads are better in some places and worse in others and the e-tolls are a disaster. Living in a small town is different from most posters here who tend to live in the bigger cities. I have no bars on my windows, no security system in the house and rarely lock the doors unless we are all away for the day. I have found the people here to be pretty much the same as other countries I have lived in, some are friendly some distant but none that caused me to fear for my safety simply by their presence. With the favorable exchange rate we have been able to live a lot more comfortably than we would have been able to in the USA. I don't regret a day since moving here and have never even considered a move back to the US. It's a beautiful place with some wonderful people, not perfect but then no place is.


I have read many of your posts and find them exceptionally informative. I am planning a move to SA for retirement from the US and will be there this winter (your summer). I am new to this forum so am unable to PM you, but I would like to ask you some questions if you don't mind. I think you would be able to PM me - Thanks. Deborah


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## 2fargone

deborah13 said:


> I have read many of your posts and find them exceptionally informative. I am planning a move to SA for retirement from the US and will be there this winter (your summer). I am new to this forum so am unable to PM you, but I would like to ask you some questions if you don't mind. I think you would be able to PM me - Thanks. Deborah


Deborah you need 5 posts in your to PM someone.


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## deborah13

*PMs*



2fargone said:


> Deborah you need 5 posts in your to PM someone.


I am aware that I need 5 posts in order to PM someone - that is why I asked Native Texan to PM me. He has sufficient posts, wouldn't he be able to PM me? If not, he can always reply via the forum.


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