# Relocating to Canada for PhD in Finance



## ism_rafiq (Oct 21, 2020)

Is it advisable to relocate to Canada for PhD in Finance? What are the opportunities after PhD in Canada?


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

You have posted this same question in the forums for three different countries. Clearly you have no real desire to come to Canada, you just want to get out of wherever you currently live.

And depending on where it is you live and where you did your education, you might not be qualified to apply to PhD programs here as your current education might not be considered up to Canadian standards.

Also, you have to realize that you need to prove to the government that you have enough money to support yourself for the duration of your studies.

Finally, one does have to ask if you have even bothered to do any research on Canada? If you had, you would know that it is the second biggest country in the world so it makes no sense to ask about opportunities in Canada as opportunities will vary widely from one region to the next.


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## ism_rafiq (Oct 21, 2020)

colchar said:


> You have posted this same question in the forums for three different countries. Clearly you have no real desire to come to Canada, you just want to get out of wherever you currently live.
> 
> And depending on where it is you live and where you did your education, you might not be qualified to apply to PhD programs here as your current education might not be considered up to Canadian standards.
> 
> ...



Thanks a lot for your reply. First of all, let me correct you it's not matter of desire to relocate. Canada offers immigration to only skilled people not on the basis of someone's desire.

Secondly, for your kind information I have more than 17 years of education including two MBA, one from UK. Therefore, I do qualify for doing PhD from Canada. It's better to have correct and complete information before passing any judgement.
Thirdly as I told you I have been to UK before for my masters degree and I better know that I have to provide the proofs of funds
Lastly, it is not mandatory to reply everyone even without having limited information. One should ask if you have even bothered to do any kind of research on prospects of PhD graduates in Canada. As I did which states that only 2% job advertisement are with requirement of PhD. Unfortunately, I lost the weblink


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

ism said:


> First of all, let me correct you it's not matter of desire to relocate. Canada offers immigration to only skilled people not on the basis of someone's desire.


Clearly you need to improve your English skills as you don't have the slightest idea what I was saying to you.




> Secondly, for your kind information I have more than 17 years of education including two MBA, one from UK.


That's nice. Nobody cares about anything except your post-secondary education so stop claiming that you have 17 years of education, as most of those years won't matter.




> Therefore, I do qualify for doing PhD from Canada.


Don't so arrogant as to make assumptions. If your undergrad degree isn't considered equivalent to a Canadian degree then your MBAs won't matter. And depending on where you got this MBA in the UK, it might not be considered equivalent either (legit university or some private school that isn't recognized?). And if your first MBA had been worth anything you wouldn't have needed to do a second one.

Stop being so damned arrogant as to think that you know whether you will be eligible or not. I have been through the Canadian university system (BA, MA, and PhD programs), you have not. I am a professor here in Canada so work in our post-secondary system every day. You are not, and you do not.

Which one of us do you think knows more about this? Take your time and think really hard, maybe you'll actually clue in.




> Thirdly as I told you I have been to UK before for my masters degree and I better know that I have to provide the proofs of funds


You didn't mention that in your first post, so stop being so snotty. If you want to come to Canada you will need to wind your neck in as attitudes like yours are not appreciated here.




> Lastly, it is not mandatory to reply everyone even without having limited information.


See my comment above about improving your English skills as this comment makes no sense.




> One should ask if you have even bothered to do any kind of research on prospects of PhD graduates in Canada.


Once again, you are demonstrating your ignorance. Canada is the second largest country in the world so one cannot talk about prospects "in Canada" as prospects vary widely from one region to the next. Prospects in Toronto will be vastly different from those in rural Saskatchewan.

As for whether or not I know anything about the prospects for PhD graduates, take a look at my education mentioned above. I know far more about it than you do.




> As I did which states that only 2% job advertisement are with requirement of PhD.



Your ignorance and naivety are becoming entertaining.


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## ism_rafiq (Oct 21, 2020)

First of all I didn't know that you are from education field, which you are so you are highly respected as being professor (Teacher)
Second it's not arrogance rather annoying that you assumed that I wanted to get out of my current situation. It's not like that at all, Yes, I am planning to do PhD so I was looking for one of the top destinations like Australia, Canada, New Zealand etc. My intention for posting question in multiple threads was purely for that reason
I clearly understand what you said regarding eligibility, but I think I was unable to communicate my point of view that I have done Bachelor degree (2 years) and MBA (2 year) from Pakistan and then MBA (1 year) from UK so I did a research about eligibility of qualifying for PhD which might not be correct that's why I posted here
Lastly, I did find an article on internet which states about that 2% PhD requirement etc.

Anyhow you are obviously in better position to answer.


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

ism_rafiq said:


> I clearly understand what you said regarding eligibility, but I think I was unable to communicate my point of view that I have done Bachelor degree (2 years)


That degree is not up to Canadian standards so will not be accepted. In Canada a BA takes four years to complete so you have only done half the work, and only have half of the knowledge, that is expected of someone with a proper BA. Pakistani BAs are vastly inferior to Canadian degrees. That two year BA will only be considered equivalent to a college diploma here. The addition of the two year MBA might, maybe, bring your total Pakistani education up to a Canadian BA but it also might not. If by some miracle it does, and your British MBA is accepted, you would still need to meet all of the other criteria for a PhD program here and you will be up against some insanely tough competition. One does not just apply to, or register in, a PhD program. Acceptance is much, much more involved than that and you would be hard pressed to find a Canadian professor to take you on as a PhD candidate.




> Lastly, I did find an article on internet which states about that 2% PhD requirement etc.



There is your Pakistani education on full display - you think coming up with an internet article is 'research'.


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## ism_rafiq (Oct 21, 2020)

colchar said:


> That degree is not up to Canadian standards so will not be accepted. In Canada a BA takes four years to complete so you have only done half the work, and only have half of the knowledge, that is expected of someone with a proper BA. Pakistani BAs are vastly inferior to Canadian degrees. That two year BA will only be considered equivalent to a college diploma here. The addition of the two year MBA might, maybe, bring your total Pakistani education up to a Canadian BA but it also might not. If by some miracle it does, and your British MBA is accepted, you would still need to meet all of the other criteria for a PhD program here and you will be up against some insanely tough competition. One does not just apply to, or register in, a PhD program. Acceptance is much, much more involved than that and you would be hard pressed to find a Canadian professor to take you on as a PhD candidate.
> 
> Ok fine got it
> Well I am doing MS in Management Sciences ( specialization in Finance) at the moment and will finish by next year. Do you think that will be fine to get to the level of equivalency or not?
> ...


Well I was just looking for an information and came across this article which confused me otherwise majority of the material was in favour of doing PhD from Canada


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## ism_rafiq (Oct 21, 2020)

So what do you suggest?
I mean what are the ways to get acceptance provided that I meet the eligibility criteria?


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

ism_rafiq said:


> So what do you suggest?
> I mean what are the ways to get acceptance provided that I meet the eligibility criteria?


Look that up yourself. It is not up to me to tell you how to go about applying to PhD programs (many of which will not even accept your application unless you have a professor who has already agreed to supervise you). The rest of us had to figure it out for ourselves, you should too.


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## ism_rafiq (Oct 21, 2020)

colchar said:


> Look that up yourself. It is not up to me to tell you how to go about applying to PhD programs (many of which will not even accept your application unless you have a professor who has already agreed to supervise you). The rest of us had to figure it out for ourselves, you should too.


Thanks a lot


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

ism_rafiq said:


> Thanks a lot



Applying to a PhD program is a long, involved process. When I applied I had stellar grades, excellent letters of recommendation, a well thought out dissertation idea, etc. and it still took 3-4 months of communication before prospective supervisors gave the go ahead for me to apply.

Based on that, why should I tell you how to get accepted? Do you have even the slightest clue what is required in a PhD program? Do you have any idea what is expected in the application process?

Do you honestly think you have a good enough academic record to be accepted? I am not talking about what would be considered a good record in Pakistan, I am talking about what would be considered a good record here which will be a much, much, much tougher standard to meet than it would be in Pakistan. Do you have recommendations lined up from professors who are known in their field and who can speak to your performance as a student, your academic abilities, and your potential for top notch world-class research? Have you figured out which schools offer the program, and which you might like to attend? Have you identified potential supervisors? Have you come up with a viable dissertation idea? Remember that a PhD dissertation must make a unique contribution to human knowledge - do you have a plan that meets that criteria?

I suspect that you haven't done any of that, and unless you are paying me my normal hourly rate of over $100/hr for my time I will not do that stuff for you. And speaking as a prof, if someone were to contact me but hadn't at least started doing everything I mentioned above I wouldn't waste my time walking them through the process because by not having made a significant start on that stuff they have demonstrated that they are not a serious candidate.

Because I worked through everything with them, as one is expected to do, and had a stellar record I was accepted into every program I applied to and had my choice of where to go. In the end, I turned down an offer from a program in the UK that is ranked top ten in the world because I wanted to work with a supervisor at another university. Unless you can put together an application package that mirrors one like mine, you are just wasting time because you will not be competitive in the admission process. And trust me when I tell you that I was not special or unique - everyone in the program has a record like mine, or better than mine! Do you really think you're up to our standard?


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## ism_rafiq (Oct 21, 2020)

Well, First of all it is great to hear from a person of your credentials and replying to very ordinary and basic queries of mine.
Secondly, to be honest I don't think so that I have that glittering profile like yours. As far as my research and other academic stuff is concerned I believe that it is reasonably satisfactory, not perfect or very good. But one thing is pretty clear in my mind that I am determined to pursue research as career and I will go out all guns blazing. 
Currently, I am doing MS in Management Science (Specialization in Finance) and I hope I will get the recommendations from my professors.
Well, as you questioned about your standards in Canada I don't know where do I stand at the moment? But, you provided me hell of information that would really help me in my career as a research student.
Actually, PhD is a prestigious degree and I want to do it from a quality standard institution, That was the basic reason for selecting Canada.
But, as you mentioned it's really hard nut to crack I was expecting the same kind of competitiveness and I am ready to try out my level best. Let's see where would I end up
But, One again thanks a lot for elaborating e everything.
I am working on different topics for research and I will now see those in Canadian perspective to figure out the gaps and then derive a model to start a research.


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

ism_rafiq said:


> Secondly, to be honest I don't think so that I have that glittering profile like yours. As far as my research and other academic stuff is concerned I believe that it is reasonably satisfactory, not perfect or very good.


Then you have no chance of being accepted. PhD programs are for the best of the best, not for those whose performance was merely satisfactory.




> But one thing is pretty clear in my mind that I am determined to pursue research as career and I will go out all guns blazing.


Then you're naive. If your record isn't good enough to get you into the program that is required for that career, how do you think you will be able to pursue that career? You can be as determined as you want, but at some point will need to face reality.





> Well, as you questioned about your standards in Canada I don't know where do I stand at the moment?


I've told you where you stand. A satisfactory record, particularly one from such an inferior education system, will not be anywhere close to good enough for you to be accepted.




> Actually, PhD is a prestigious degree and I want to do it from a quality standard institution


Once again, from what you say about your record you are not qualified to gain entry to the program at any institution, much less from a quality institution. Their applicants will be the best of the best from Canada, and elsewhere in the world. Why would schools who have their pick of the best candidates bother to entertain the idea of accepting someone whose record, by their own admission, is merely satisfactory?

And do you have any idea how small most PhD programs are? One of the programs I was accepted by only accepts four new PhD students per year. Just think about how tough the competition is. Do you really think you can compete with your satisfactory record?




> But, as you mentioned it's really hard nut to crack I was expecting the same kind of competitiveness and I am ready to try out my level best.


What do you even mean by this? You cannot 'try'. All you can do is apply based on your current academic record, which will not be good enough.




> I am working on different topics for research and I will now see those in Canadian perspective to figure out the gaps and then derive a model to start a research.


Why bother when your record isn't good enough?


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## ism_rafiq (Oct 21, 2020)

Ok thanks a lot 
so if I am correct, you mean that someone from my country must have atleast 80-85% marks throughout his career to be consider, atleast for applying.
What is the weightage of publications? I mean does it matter number and quality of publications for PhD


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

ism_rafiq said:


> Ok thanks a lot
> so if I am correct, you mean that someone from my country must have atleast 80-85% marks throughout his career to be consider, atleast for applying.


It has nothing to do with your country - _everyone_ will need marks like those (or better) regardless of which country they come from. And meeting the minimum standard won't be good enough, you will have to exceed that standard, usually by a wide margin, for your application to be competitive with the other applications that the program will receive.

As an undergrad I had grades like those overall, and higher in my major (History). In my Master's I was a straight A student with no grade below A. My grades at the Master's level were a mix of A and A+ grades (A grades being 85%-90% and A+ grades being 90% and higher). I am not unique or special, everyone in my PhD program had grades like mine. And those people earned their grades at Canadian and British universities, not some unknown university in Pakistan where the education system is vastly inferior to the Canadian system. If you cannot get grades like those in a crappy system where you do half the work that we do, what makes you think you could ever perform at that level in the Canadian system? You have to realize just how inferior the Pakistani education system is to the Canadian system. In Canada your BA would only be considered a two year college diploma. If someone with a two year college diploma were to try to apply to a graduate program (Master's) here in Canada they would be laughed at and their application package would be thrown in the garbage. And I am willing to bet that your Pakistani Master's is nowhere near the level of a Canadian Master's.




> What is the weightage of publications? I mean does it matter number and quality of publications for PhD


There is no weighting.

Publications will matter, but most applicants will have publications before applying (I did) so everyone is pretty much equal in that respect. McGill University, for example, states that for admission to their PhD program in Finance "[a]pplicants are assessed according to their past academic record, evaluations by former professors or supervisors, performance on standard graduate examinations, relevant work experience and the fit between their interests and the Faculty's focus and objectives". For them, publications aren't even mentioned.

For their PhD in Finance program the University of Toronto states that "[a]dmission is highly competitive: we only admit two-to-four students each year. Successful applicants in the past have demonstrated their excellence through outstanding undergraduate grades, top scores on GMAT/GRE, excellent quantitative skills and other indications of an interest and ability to achieve excellence in research on finance-related topics". If you noticed earlier I said that PhD programs are very small and only a few candidates are admitted each year. The University of Toronto is the largest university in Canada and they state that they only admit two to four candidates per year. If the largest school in the country only admits two to four candidates can you imagine how good their records must be, and how strong their application packages (including GRE scores) must have been? They will receive 50-100 applications each year, and only accept two to four students (my PhD program received 58 applications and only accepted four of us). Be honest with yourself - do you really think that you can be competitive in that kind of application process when you openly admit that your academic record is merely satisfactory? Seriously, be honest with yourself here.

So grades, letters of recommendation, and the dissertation proposal will be the most important factors in the application process and your grades simply are not up to the standard one would expect of any serious applicant. And unless you have a well thought out dissertation idea, it is unlikely that you will get past the initial email contact stage of the application process. In most programs you need a professor to have agreed to supervise you before you even apply, and without a well thought out proposal that simply isn't going to happen. I had what I thought was a well thought out proposal and it still took months before profs signed off and told me to apply. I am glad they did, because it helped narrow things down for me but I at least had the framework of a good proposal when I initiated contact with them. That piqued their interest in me and we went from there. Do you have a proposal worked out? And are you aware that one of the first things they will do is ask you to send them copies of your transcripts so that they can see your grades? For the programs I applied to I didn't get beyond two emails with any potential supervisor before they asked for unofficial transcripts (and my CV, a copy of my Master's thesis, etc.). They did that to determine whether I had the grades, academic ability, and background required for an application because there was no point in them wasting time working through the proposal with me if my record wasn't good enough. I am willing to bet that your grades, which come from an inferior education system and that you admit were merely satisfactory, won't be good enough for the potential supervisors to continue their conversations with you.

In addition to all of the above, for a PhD program in Finance you have to take the GMAT. Have you done so? Have you even looked into it? If you have taken it how did you score, and if you haven't what is your realistic expectation of how you will score? Generally, scores in the 85th percentile and higher are required before you can apply - and that only means that they will accept your application. You will need scores higher than that to be competitive with other applicants. If you cannot reach that standard, universities will not even accept your application package as you do not meet the minimum requirements for consideration. Why would they waste their time on someone who has no chance of being admitted?

Based on everything I have said in my last couple of posts do you honestly think that you are a serious applicant? I don't care how much you want to do this, and neither will the universities, because wanting something is not the same as being qualified to do it. I want to play for the Leafs, but am not qualified to do so. I accept that reality, do you accept your reality?


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## ism_rafiq (Oct 21, 2020)

Well, Obviously Master from my country is nowhere near to any institution of Canada / UK / AUS etc. unless it is from high ranked university.
Well to be honest at the moment what has gone cannot be changed like my old grades which are obviously not up to the standards you mentioned. Currently my MS (which is in progress) fortunately I have 5 A out 6 subjects I appeared till now. There are two subjects and thesis remaining for the full course.(but that is just for the sake of information)
Your second point is quite understandable, I have to score high rather very high in GRE/GMAT and out class idea for research to get selected which is available option at the moment. It is another debate whether I can do it or not.

And about your last part of discussion, I will be honest with you I have heard about the GMAT but never appeared because it was never required till now. But, now as you said that it is mandatory around the world then I would first look into it, explore it and then come up with honest analysis that whether I would be able to score around 90% or not.
If, it sounds that it is impossible for me to do that then it does not matte whether I want or not to do PhD as I do not qualify. And lastly, about a novel idea of research for PhD as well

You know what, actually this was the reason I placed this question here regarding PhD. Because, this kind of information can only be provided by someone already from the field.

Once again thanks a lot professor for your valuable and timely information


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## ism_rafiq (Oct 21, 2020)

And your last question of accepting my reality. I have two things to analyze, novel idea for research which I think is possible (as compared to my grades which I can't change as it is impossible to study again from Grade 10 with a aim of 85% plus in every grade onwards)
Second is GMAT 90%, If this does not work out then yes, I will not stay on this track rather look for something else


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

ism_rafiq said:


> Well, Obviously Master from my country is nowhere near to any institution of Canada / UK / AUS etc. unless it is from high ranked university.


No, even from a high ranked university it will not be enough. Why can you not understand that your education is inferior and in no way measures up to the education systems in Western countries? In Pakistan you do half the work in half the time so it doesn't matter how highly a university is allegedly ranked, the education received there is simply not up to our standards.





> Currently my MS (which is in progress) fortunately I have 5 A out 6 subjects I appeared till now.


So what? When applying you will be competing with people who have all A and A+ grades, so your grades still aren't good enough to compete. Why would five As out of six grades impress any admission committee when their other applicants are all present nothing but A and A+ grades?

And that is not the only thing they will look at, they will also look at your Pakistani degrees in which your performance was only satisfactory in a vastly inferior system.




> Your second point is quite understandable, I have to score high rather very high in GRE/GMAT


That is only one factor in an application and cannot overcome low grades.




> out class idea for research to get selected which is available option at the moment. It is another debate whether I can do it or not.


If you don't have a good, viable idea for a dissertation proposal yet one does have to question why you are even thinking about applying. The dissertation idea should have been the first thing you thought of, and you should have done some research to determine whether it is viable or not. That idea should be what is driving you towards PhD studies, and if it isn't you are not a serious candidate. When I applied I knew what I wanted to research, why I wanted to, what contribution it would make to the field, and why it was viable. That was my sole focus, and is what drove me. At the PhD level it has to be. I am willing to wager that until I mentioned it you hadn't given it a second's worth of thought.




> And about your last part of discussion, I will be honest with you I have heard about the GMAT but never appeared because it was never required till now. But, now as you said that it is mandatory around the world then I would first look into it, explore it and then come up with honest analysis that whether I would be able to score around 90% or not.


Even if you can, it is one part of an application package and will not make up for poor grades.




> If, it sounds that it is impossible for me to do that then it does not matte whether I want or not to do PhD as I do not qualify.


I am telling you right now that it is unlikely that you will qualify - highly unlikely.




> And lastly, about a novel idea of research for PhD as well


If you haven't thought about that before now then you are not a serious candidate, you are a fantasist. If you haven't thought about it, you obviously have no idea what the purpose or focus of a PhD program is. You have some idea in your head that you want to do a PhD but haven't the slightest clue what is required or what it entails.

If you want to do one, do it in Pakistan. Their education system is so crappy that you will likely be admitted to a program, just don't expect anyone anywhere else in the world to take the degree seriously. But at least you will be able to say you have the degree.





> Once again thanks a lot professor for your valuable and timely information


I think some serious introspection is in order.


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

ism_rafiq said:


> novel idea for research which I think is possible (as compared to my grades which I can't change as it is impossible to study again from Grade 10 with a aim of 85% plus in every grade onwards)


You don't seem to grasp what I am saying.

You need a unique idea for a dissertation, but having that will _*not*_ make up for your poor grades.

And you would not need to go back to grade 10 as nobody gives a damn what you did in high school. People from Pakistan and India reference that all the time here as if it means something, but don't seem to grasp that high school is meaningless.




> Second is GMAT 90%



First, I never said percent, I said percentile. If you do not know the difference between the two how the hell can you possibly be thinking about doing a PhD in finance? That is high school level math!

Second, even a score in the 90th percentile or better is not enough as a good GMAT score does not erase your poor grades.

You don't seem to realize that your entire application package must be top notch. You keep grasping at straws thinking that there is something that will overcome your mediocre grades from a crappy education system. There is nothing that will do that.

You will need to present an application package that is top notch in every respect, but you cannot do that because of your mediocre grades in an inferior system. Nothing will overcome that other than doing your BA over again and getting great grades throughout. That is unrealistic for most people.

When I applied I had excellent grades (both the BA and Master's levels), great letters of recommendation, publications, conference papers I had presented, a solid dissertation idea, a well thought out and written dissertation proposal (which included some preliminary archival research), professors who were interested in my proposal and in working with me, academic awards from my Master's program, multiple prestiguous scholarships (some institutional and others national), and had written an excellent Master's thesis (which all prospective professors had asked to see and had read before inviting me to apply). In the end I applied to six universities/programs (three in Canada and three in the UK). All of them were excellent programs, with one being ranked in the top fifty in the world and another being ranked in the top ten in the world. I was accepted into every program I applied to. Hell one of them (ranked top fifty in the world) accepted me two days after the application deadline!

But you know what? Among my peers I was not special or unique in any way whatsoever. Everybody in the PhD program had a record like mine, and some had records that were even better than mine. I don't mean this to be insulting, but compared to my record yours is a joke. You simply don't measure up. You are not in my league. Now if you aren't in my league and everybody in my PhD program was the same as or better than me, what hope do you think you have? Now think about how few applicants are accepted. As I pointed out, the largest university in Canada only accepts 2-4 people per year. Their program will be rather typical of all programs here. Just like in the programs I applied to, the applicants will be the best of the best. We are talking here about people with the best academic records in the country, and from around the world. What in God's name makes you think you have any chance of competing with them for a place in the program? I am sorry, but you simply aren't good enough.

So it is best that you stop wasting time and effort looking into this, and perhaps should focus on a plan that is more realistic for someone with your record. Once you have figured that out, you can look into emigrating if that is still what you want to do.


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## ism_rafiq (Oct 21, 2020)

Got it 
Well, No I don't want it for the sake of degree


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## RhiS (Dec 16, 2020)

I've seen on numerous posts (I think from the same individual to be honest) that other countries education programmes are inferior to Canada's and therefore they won't be accepted. However, I just want to point out what a narrow-minded view this individual has - every country has fantastic people within them and if someone works hard to get to university, in a location they can physically reach or afford, nothing takes away that they are a fantastic individual. They may just not have had the same opportunities as someone in a Western Country. You've been very polite ism_rafiq but I was horrified by the arrogance of the replies to your post. I just want to reassure you that not everyone shares these views. Definitely do your research but don't be disheartened.

I was born and live in the UK and have done my Bachelors and Masters here at world-class (top 50) universities and you might want to try the UK for PhD's. In the UK it is actually mostly pursued by people who aren't sure on their career paths but the criteria for acceptance is far different to applying to under-grad / graduate school. In fact, I have had friends who went to poorly ranked universities for these levels and went on to Oxford to do their PhD (PhD's are far less competitive in a lot of fields because - finance for example - it will not get you any further up the food chain). A friend of mine who I studied Maths and Economics at the second best university in the country for Maths (I turned down Oxford to go there) went and did a Masters and PhD afterwards and when she entered the workplace she ended up being Junior to one of the Masters students she had taught! 

When I completed my Structural Engineering Masters, only the very bottom of my class went into academia. It really varies depending on the subject. I can only assume that Colchar is in a research field like Biology / Chemistry where a PhD really is a good next step and therefore probably more competitive. For finance, as I said, most highly academic individuals will be snapped up for high paying careers so it might not be as tough for you. Primarily basing this on applications from the UK but a finance role is far more likely to ask for an MBA than a PhD.

So please don't be too disheartened. You can definitely pursue a PhD anywhere in the world. There are good and bad universities everywhere (I studied at University of Waterloo for engineering in Canada as an exchange student and just down the road there was a 'party university' with much lower standards). The main thing is to find a good supervisor who is researching topics you are interested in. And just because Colchar has really irritated me with his comments - University of Waterloo is a really great engineering university but when it was assigned to me for my year abroad, my heart sank because I had never heard of it and I didn't want a bad university on my CV! In fact, I knew of no Canadian universities academically besides guessing the big cities had to have them. So it just goes to show the outward view from someone from another country regarding education standards in your own country can be very warped.

Regarding 'timescales' of degree programmes being an indication of a degrees worth. I also don't think this is the case. My husband is French and they have a fantastic engineering programme whereby students do a two year prep school which doesn't give them anything on paper followed by a two-year Masters programme. I consider myself very academic but the UK system is way below the standard of the French system. Even going to a top university I do not consider myself to have anywhere near as good an education as the French engineers - essentially we 'rope learn' in the UK - study to pass exams etc. whereas the French system teaches people to think. So I have my 3 years BSc and two 1 year Masters so on paper look far better because he only has a single 2 year Masters. 

Waterloo is a fantastic University in Canada by the way with a lot of researchers from India / Pakistan (in the engineering department) so it is definitely possible! Not lumping the two countries together but I just note that Colchar referenced both these countries not have the right standards to do research in Canada!.


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

RhiS said:


> I've seen on numerous posts (I think from the same individual to be honest) that other countries education programmes are inferior to Canada's and therefore they won't be accepted. However, I just want to point out what a narrow-minded view this individual has - every country has fantastic people within them and if someone works hard to get to university, in a location they can physically reach or afford, nothing takes away that they are a fantastic individual.


You are incredibly ignorant and have no clue what you are talking about.

It doesn't matter how (allegedly) fantastic a person is, and nobody cares if they worked hard in a university system that is inferior to the Canadian system because the fact remains that the system is inferior and, therefore, their education is simply not up to our standards.

Take Pakistan for instance. There one earns a B.A. in two years. In Canada it takes four years to earn a B.A. So no matter how (allegedly) fantastic the person is the fact of the matter is that their education is inferior and they have not learned as much as a Canadian student. That is just a fact, and nothing will change it.





> They may just not have had the same opportunities as someone in a Western Country.


So we should just throw our standards out of the window and consider their education to be equivalent to a Canadian education even if it was inferior? What a stupid idea.





> You've been very polite ism_rafiq but I was horrified by the arrogance of the replies to your post.


Horrified? You're not one for hyperbole are you?

And it isn't arrogance, it is facts. If facts bother you then I suggest you retreat to some safe space full of puppies and rainbows.




> I just want to reassure you that not everyone shares these views.


It isn't a view (ie. opinion), it is a fact. Not all education systems are the same, and you need to not only learn that, but must accept it. Why do you think that organizations such as WES exist? If all were equal, WES wouldn't be needed. And there is evidence all over these boards of people whose education is rated lower here in Canada than in their home countries. Why? Because the education systems in their home countries are simply not up to Canadian standards.

I am an academic, a professor. I work in this field every single day. I know far, far more about it than you do - and you need to accept that.




> I was born and live in the UK and have done my Bachelors and Masters here at world-class (top 50) universities and you might want to try the UK for PhD's. In the UK it is actually mostly pursued by people who aren't sure on their career paths


It is mostly pursued by people not sure of their career path? What a load of tripe. People pursue PhDs for specific purposes, and the application process is so detailed and involved that someone without a specific purpose will not be considered.




> but the criteria for acceptance is far different to applying to under-grad / graduate school.


Huh? A PhD program is a graduate school program. Why are you spouting off when you don't even understand the basically terminology?





> In fact, I have had friends who went to poorly ranked universities for these levels and went on to Oxford to do their PhD (PhD's are far less competitive in a lot of fields because - finance for example - it will not get you any further up the food chain).


PhDs are competitive in virtually every field.




> A friend of mine who I studied Maths and Economics at the second best university in the country for Maths (I turned down Oxford to go there) went and did a Masters and PhD afterwards and when she entered the workplace she ended up being Junior to one of the Masters students she had taught!


One anecdotal observation is not definitive.




> When I completed my Structural Engineering Masters, only the very bottom of my class went into academia.


Because a Master's is not needed in engineering. Only those who want to stay in academia do them.




> I can only assume that Colchar is in a research field like Biology / Chemistry where a PhD really is a good next step and therefore probably more competitive.


No, I am in the Humanities.




> You can definitely pursue a PhD anywhere in the world.



Only if that country is willing to accept their previous degrees. Many countries will not do so.




> There are good and bad universities everywhere (I studied at University of Waterloo for engineering in Canada as an exchange student and just down the road there was a 'party university' with much lower standards).



And there you go demonstrating your ignorance again. I did my B.A. at Waterloo and my Master's at Laurier, the party school you are referring to. In my field, and many others, the graduate programs are run jointly between the two schools (many also include the University of Guelph or McMaster University in those joint programs). In fact, some undergrad programs are run jointly as well (ie. Arts & Business at Waterloo). And undergrad students can take courses at either university. They are so integrated that you pay your tuition to your home university and they just transfer the money to the other school. So that party school school is obviously up to Waterloo's standards otherwise they wouldn't be running joint programs or allowing students to take classes there for equivalent credit.

And far more importantly, Laurier is only a party school for some programs. It is one of the top ranked business schools in Canada (top five in the country). Do you really think its undergrad business and MBA students are partying? Trust me, they aren't (I knew many of them). Laurier also has other programs rated among the best in the country (ie. social work; history, particularly military history). For you to deem the entire school a party school merely demonstrates your complete and utter ignorance, yet again.




> And just because Colchar has really irritated me with his comments - University of Waterloo is a really great engineering university but when it was assigned to me for my year abroad, my heart sank because I had never heard of it and I didn't want a bad university on my CV!


So you were too ignorant to do a tiny bit of research to find out that it is the top engineering school in Canada, and one of the best in the world?




> So it just goes to show the outward view from someone from another country regarding education standards in your own country can be very warped.


No Skippy, it shows that someone like you, who has very limited knowledge and experience, can still spout off as if they are an expert. It takes a special kind of arrogance to think that you know more than someone who deals with this for a living.




> Regarding 'timescales' of degree programmes being an indication of a degrees worth. I also don't think this is the case.


Then you are even more inorant than I had thought. Please explain how a degree done in two years can in any way be equivalent to the same degree that takes four years? When you are taking half of the classes, your degree is in no way equivalent to one that requires twice the work.




> I consider myself very academic but the UK system is way below the standard of the French system.


Maybe in engineering, but not in other areas.





> Waterloo is a fantastic University in Canada by the way with a lot of researchers from India / Pakistan (in the engineering department) so it is definitely possible! Not lumping the two countries together but I just note that Colchar referenced both these countries not have the right standards to do research in Canada!.



They don't. People who are there from Pakistan will be a degree level lower than they are in Pakistan. So someone with a Master's from Pakistan will not be admitted to the PhD program at Waterloo, they will be admitted to the Master's program.

I have sat on admission committees, you have not. I have seen first hand how education systems in other countries are considered and how applicants from them are viewed in comparison to people from other systems. You have not. Stop pretending you have anywhere near the same knowledge about this as I do.

And the OP has readily admitted that they have poor grades. If they have poor grades from an inferior education system, what chance do they have against people who have great grades from superior education systems? They seem to be pinning their hopes on GMAT scores, or whatever but are not willing to accept that those do not override their poor grades. There is a cutoff below which they won't even accept applications, and from the sounds of it the OP doesn't even meet that. But yeah, you go ahead and encourage them to apply to Canadian schools. You go right ahead..........


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## RhiS (Dec 16, 2020)

Your response is too tiring to reply to so just some key things:

Use of examples is a good method to convey to people what you mean. Of course, as a mathematician by background, and with a Grandfather who was a noted statistician, I am fully aware one case is not evidence. I referred to the UK system for PhD entry only, not Canada's, because I have many friends who have gone through this process and I am fully aware of it as my husband has also considered it as an option and researched it extensively.
His reasoning to consider a PhD programme was because when he first moved to the UK his Canadian Masters, from the University of Waterloo, was not getting him any engineering roles. An accredited Masters is needed for you to become a Chartered Civil Engineer in the UK because it is a protected profession. One gap in your knowledge there to assume only a Bachelor's is needed. That is not the case in the UK so everyone who wants to be a Chartered Engineer (the majority) do a Masters.
I thoroughly researched UW when I was assigned the University - it was an exchange programme where I did not select the university - I only indicated countries of interest. I do not research universities in my spare time. I am merely demonstrating that just because I had not heard of it, it did not mean it was not a great university - it just meant it wasn't a world renowned one like Oxford, Cambridge etc. You seem to be unable to fully comprehend clear statements - I said I had not heard of it when it was assigned to me.
I also know that each university has it's specialisms so I'm glad Laurier has theirs. I also did not research Laurier until today so I am openly admitting this was the impression I was given from my fellow Canadian students at UW who were very proud of being at the best engineering school in the country and perhaps, in typical university rivalry, informed me that it was not the same standard. Thanks for the heads up but you're accepting my point entirely - people from outside a certain education system probably have no idea of the quality. Having experienced both Canadian and UK engineering education I would much rather hire a Canadian graduate but, as demonstrated with my husbands experience, people like what they know when it comes to the world of work.
You are very pedantic - graduate school means Masters level in the UK. PhD is classed as Post-Graduate.
It is narrow-minded to assume that the next Stephen Hawking would not be admitted to a Canadian university because he was born in a country with a poor education system and therefore did his Bachelors and Masters there. The whole point of the assessment process for PhD level is surely to assess the research capabilities of the individual because their Bachelor's will never be identical to even another student on their own course due to electives / optional modules. I speak for the UK system but we study a basic level in a number of areas at Bachelor's level, specialise when we reach Master's and then specialise further at PhD. Half of the Bachelor's content is therefore irrelevant. That is why a number of universities, including in Canada, accept people with significant work experience onto Master's programmes if they can demonstrate they have the knowledge needed.
The UK now offer 2-year accelerated Bachelor's and I believe we are still considered to have an excellent education system (although, as I said, I personally am very critical of it despite going to top universities). These programmes go through the same auditing as all degree programmes and therefore cannot be awarded unless they meet the correct standard.
A Bachelor's in the UK is 3 years as standard and a Masters 1 year and I have had no issues with getting any of my credentials assessed by WES at the correct level.
As I mentioned my orginal degree is in Mathematics (Operational Research, Statistics and Economics) from the University of Warwick which is ranked 77th in the world this year and was, at the time second in the UK after Cambridge for Mathematics so my experience not limited to engineering. This is one of the most prestigious degree programmes in business in the UK - attended by students across the world.
I don't live under a rock at all - I appreciate the person in this article might not have the requirements but you have minimal knowledge of his circumstances and your advice is not helpful. If he has attended one of the world-ranked Pakistan universities, there is no reason to assume that his degree will not be accepted as a Bachelors. As I said, in France, for the engineering / science programmes they have 2 years of education which is at degree level but is not awarded with any equivalent certificate so in total they will leave with one 2-year Masters and no Bachelor's at all! I doubt you know the education system of every country but there is every chance the same applies in Pakistan - perhaps their high schools cover some of the content required. In the UK, our first year doesn't even count towards our grade at most universities because it is accepted this is the leveling year. I have seen your posts on multiple articles and honestly I'm not even sure why you are posting - an example response to this post would have been 'many international degrees are not recognised in Canada I would recommend getting your WES assessment done before you continue'. Simple, helpful reply. If you don't have anything constructive to say - just move on and get on with living life.
I was, in deed, horrified because you are responsible for admissions and yet you are so narrow-minded. I'm not talking about this specific individual because he has said he has good but not great grades but you have blanket said that a degree from a specific country is not worthy of doing a PhD in Canada (and you mentioned India as well which has some excellent universities - I have a number of brilliant colleagues who studied in India). If you assess your own candidates like this it is bordering on racist and definitely does not support any form of equality of opportunity.
Finally, I looked up the World Rankings just out of curiosity and interestingly - probably for valid reasons - Wilfrid Laurier University is not in the most accepted World Rankings (QS World University Rankings) whereas I believe 8 Universities from Pakistan are. Similarly, in the US News Best Global Universities guide three Pakistani Universities are ranked in the top 500 with Wilfrid Laurier only at 1271. I know these stats are not always 100% and have varied inputs (research citations, student experience etc.) BUT if you want to be narrow-minded towards someone because they come from Pakistan please also consider that someone might apply that same narrow mindedness to your students for studying at a University not on the tables / low ranking in the tables. As I said, my husband experienced this himself - in academia I am sure you are fully aware of the true meanings of these rankings but employers have thousands of CV's and don't have time to research every university so name recognition and being able to quickly google the QS World University Rankings is probably very beneficial for people with international qualifications.


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## WestCoastCanadianGirl (Mar 17, 2012)

Ok, kids.... enough bickering amongst yourselves (Santa _is_ still watching you),

Since we seem to have long since passed the thread's useful shelf life, I'm shutting things down.


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