# Are the spanish idiots?



## Pesky Wesky

Are the Spanish idiots?

Not my words you understand, but the title of an article written on the 9th December by Jesús Sanz Astigarraga and that is doing the rounds on internet and receiving many comments.

Here's a translation of the first paragraph so you get an idea of what's being said.



> Spaniards – Are you idiots?
> 
> 
> 9th of December 2010
> 
> 
> There is a labour problem with the air traffic controllers which affects 1.2% of the Spanish
> 
> 
> population (600,000 people) and nearly everyone jumps up as one shouting like crazy for the
> 
> 
> lynching of the controllers, when the day before another, even more restrictive reform of the labour
> 
> 
> law, is passed. They take away the 420€ unemployment benefit from 688,000 unemployed people,
> 
> 
> who are in financial ruin and announce drastic changes in the pension law which affect 80% of the
> 
> 
> population and nobody gets upset, nobody says anything. Are you stupid?


He goes on to talk about politicians who lie to us (about the CIA flights and José Couso) about the bankers, about the Royal family who are getting richer and who support the USA and Morocco ... He talks about how other countries have protested like France, the UK, Greece, but the Spanish don't.

Here's the link to the article if you feel like reading more. It's not very long

Españoles, ¿sois idiotas? . Diario de Noticias de Navarra


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## gus-lopez

He makes some good points. People concerned about the small things that don't affect many whilst doing nothing about the main things that affect them directly.


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## nigele2

Pesky Wesky said:


> Are the Spanish idiots?


Not idiots but no longer able to offer any resistance. Franco killed their spirit, their belief in themselves. 

In my experience they are good people, very kind, very generous, very likable. Their family lifestyle is great. But you wouldn't want them as an ally. 

My family in Madrid talk about demonstrations supporting Wikileaks, demonstrations supporting the people of the Sahara, and demonstrations against the wars in Irak and Afghanistan. But they just accept 40% youth unemployed stating they are helpless.

I said this on here ages ago, Spain needs a revolution. The core of the country needs to be exterminated, replaced, and a new constitution put in place. But sadly resistance in Spain is pitifully small and leaderless. All very very sad. 

But there is hope as the spiral of economic disaster gathers pace. Sadly that in the short term punishes the poor but at least it will force change.

Jesús Sanz Astigarraga final sentence says it all.


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## jojo

I disagree. The Spanish have lots of spirit and do demonstrate quite often. Itsa possible that they also are not frightened of going without and maybe a good few understand the reasons for the austerity measures!??? The ATC thing was probably generated by its suddenness and the good old media!!!

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina

It´s a good article but it´s not strictly true. There are protest marches going on all over the country today, organised by the two main unions, UGT and CCOO.

Las protestas contra las medidas del Ejecutivo vuelven a la calle. El Correo


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## Pesky Wesky

nigele2 said:


> Not idiots but no longer able to offer any resistance. Franco killed their spirit, their belief in themselves.
> 
> In my experience they are good people, very kind, very generous, very likable. Their family lifestyle is great. But you wouldn't want them as an ally.
> 
> My family in Madrid talk about demonstrations supporting Wikileaks, demonstrations supporting the people of the Sahara, and demonstrations against the wars in Irak and Afghanistan. But they just accept 40% youth unemployed stating they are helpless.
> 
> I said this on here ages ago, Spain needs a revolution. The core of the country needs to be exterminated, replaced, and a new constitution put in place. But sadly resistance in Spain is pitifully small and leaderless. All very very sad.
> 
> But there is hope as the spiral of economic disaster gathers pace. Sadly that in the short term punishes the poor but at least it will force change.
> 
> Jesús Sanz Astigarraga final sentence says it all.


I don't know about Franco killing off their spirit as I've said before. He's a far off figure in the past for the young. Anyone 30 and younger has never lived under his rule don't forget.
But the bit about demonstrating about Iraq, Afghanistan and the Sahara rings true. And I certainly agree that Spain is leaderless. However, Aznar has volunteered to jump in at the drop of the hat! . 
Gus - I agree with your comment. People focus on the easy to complain about and what we are fed by the media.
Alcalaina - I think we saw before (in the NON general strike earlier on on the year) that people are not going to follow the unions. And I think they're right not to. This kind of action is going no where. Also, I was in Madrid last week and I didn't see any information about a demonstration anywhere, nor in the town where I live. However for the demonstations against the Iraq war the publicity was huge. These demonstrations and actions are not coming from _*the people*_, they're coming from _*organisations*_ which think they can _*organise*_ the people and I don't think they can.
However, as nigele2 and Jesús Sanz Astigarraga say, if we don't _*do smth*_ soon it's going to be too late.It seems that we're waiting for the elections next year.


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## nigele2

Alcalaina said:


> It´s a good article but it´s not strictly true. There are protest marches going on all over the country today, organised by the two main unions, UGT and CCOO.
> 
> Las protestas contra las medidas del Ejecutivo vuelven a la calle. El Correo


Alcalaina these same unions organised a General strike which proved it is very much 'strictly true'. We will see what attendance they get and what follow up action they gain support for. 

I wish them success but I am not holding my breath.


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## nigele2

Pesky Wesky said:


> .....However, Aznar has volunteered to jump in at the drop of the hat! .


That cracked me up  Pesky I'm working today until 2 in the morning but that has fired the chuckle furnaces. Enjoy your day


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## Pesky Wesky

nigele2 said:


> That cracked me up  Pesky I'm working today until 2 in the morning but that has fired the chuckle furnaces. Enjoy your day


Good!!!
Always glad to put a smile on your face, but it IS true so batten down the hatches would be my advice!!

Until 2 am??
Can I ask the question that is asked in the article - Are you .....???!!!


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## Pesky Wesky

jojo said:


> I disagree. The Spanish have lots of spirit and do demonstrate quite often. Itsa possible that they also are not frightened of going without and maybe a good few understand the reasons for the austerity measures!??? The ATC thing was probably generated by its suddenness and the good old media!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


I think you're right, a lot of people know that smth has to be done and some austerity measures have to be taken.
But I think we're looking at the larger picture here. What is being done to redress the unemployment issue. The famous Plan E filled up people's time in manual work for a few MONTHS!! It's outrageous that so much was spent on such a crap plan. We need full time, permanent employment for millions of people NOW! Apart from wasting money on plan E, they have also cut subsidies to solar energy, of which Spain was the world leader in production of. It was an area which was showing amazing growth. What does Spain produce if not sun FFS!


And that's just thinking about unemployment!

Sorry sorry. Will go and have a shower to cool down...


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## Alcalaina

nigele2 said:


> Alcalaina these same unions organised a General strike which proved it is very much 'strictly true'. We will see what attendance they get and what follow up action they gain support for.
> 
> I wish them success but I am not holding my breath.


So do I. They haven't done much so far I think because they are still in denial that a PSOE government could do these things and are trying to negotiate. But I bet we see some action once they realise they have been kicked in the teeth. We could have our very own "winter of discontent"!

Zapatero ready to go it alone on pension reform · ELPAÍS.com in English


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> . Itsa possible that they also are not frightened of going without and maybe a good few understand the reasons for the austerity measures!???
> Jo xxx


Austerity for whom? That's the point. If we are honest, it's austerity for the many and business as usual for the few.
Bonuses for bankers, benefit cuts for the poorest.
We British are a nation of doormats. We are subservient, servile and imagine ourselves to be something we are not. We are lied to, told we must cut back by millionaires in government...and we take it lying down.
Me included now, alas. 
I suppose in terms of education, income etc. I have become what is known as 'middle class' but I have 'umble origins...a widowed mother who scrubbed other people's floors and cleaned their loos rather than accept what she saw as 'charity'. One proud woman's refusal to take what she is entitled to, others avoid tax. 
She' went without' be able to buy the books that gave me my education that lifted me out of a future that otherwise could have been not much different from hers.
Why is it so noble to 'go without'? And who exactly is 'going without'? Is the Royal family having spam fritters for dinner this year? Are bankers forgoing their bonuses? Will Sir Philip Green the empire builder cease paying his profits into his wife's Monaco bank account so he can avoid paying millions in tax? Will the multi - millionaires drink water with their Christmas turkey instead of Roederer Cristal or Chateau Lafitte?
Unlike Alcalaina who is still able to find energy to protest against this sick world we live in, I have become resigned to the status quo and therefore deeply cynical.
But every now and then a spark of righteous anger at the hypocrisy of it all gets fanned into a flame and then.......
I post stuff like this


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## Guest

Alcalaina said:


> So do I. They haven't done much so far I think because they are still in denial that a PSOE government could do these things and are trying to negotiate. But I bet we see some action once they realise they have been kicked in the teeth. We could have our very own "winter of discontent"!
> 
> Zapatero ready to go it alone on pension reform · ELPAÍS.com in English




In denial!?!?!?! In cahoots, I'd say. This strike could've taken place before the reforms went into place. However, when did they happen? End of September, early October, long after the ink was dry on the first batch of sweeping reform.


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## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> Austerity for whom? That's the point. If we are honest, it's austerity for the many and business as usual for the few.
> Bonuses for bankers, benefit cuts for the poorest.
> We British are a nation of doormats. We are subservient, servile and imagine ourselves to be something we are not. We are lied to, told we must cut back by millionaires in government...and we take it lying down.
> Me included now, alas.
> I suppose in terms of education, income etc. I have become what is known as 'middle class' but I have 'umble origins...a widowed mother who scrubbed other people's floors and cleaned their loos rather than accept what she saw as 'charity'. One proud woman's refusal to take what she is entitled to, others avoid tax.
> She' went without' be able to buy the books that gave me my education that lifted me out of a future that otherwise could have been not much different from hers.
> Why is it so noble to 'go without'? And who exactly is 'going without'? Is the Royal family having spam fritters for dinner this year? Are bankers forgoing their bonuses? Will Sir Philip Green the empire builder cease paying his profits into his wife's Monaco bank account so he can avoid paying millions in tax? Will the multi - millionaires drink water with their Christmas turkey instead of Roederer Cristal or Chateau Lafitte?
> Unlike Alcalaina who is still able to find energy to protest against this sick world we live in, I have become resigned to the status quo and therefore deeply cynical.
> But every now and then a spark of righteous anger at the hypocrisy of it all gets fanned into a flame and then.......
> I post stuff like this


:clap2::clap2: Hey, we'll get you out on the barricades yet!!! Old reformists never die ...


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## Pesky Wesky

Alcalaina said:


> :clap2::clap2: Hey, we'll get you out on the barricades yet!!! Old reformists never die ...


Except that mrypg9 seems to talking about the UK????


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Except that mrypg9 seems to talking about the UK????


Solidarity is international, sister!!


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## nigele2

mrypg9 said:


> Solidarity is international, sister!!


But confusing Spainish problems with global events (or happenings in other countries) is what has allowed the spanish ruling classes to get away with enslaving and robbing the working classes. Mr Bean referring to the 'crisis' is a smoke screen. Just look what the markets think:

In the last year: FTSE +12.5% DAX +17% Madrid -14%

_And I have been generous with the roundings in favour of Spain. _ 

Of course there are people out there trying to attract investment in Spain. Here is one reason offered by a US financial company "We Americans owe a particular debt to Spain. After all, financing by venture capitalist Spanish monarchs Ferdinand and Isabella led Italian entrepreneur Christopher Columbus to discover America in 1492.". Sounds a good reason to me


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## Alcalaina

nigele2 said:


> Of course there are people out there trying to attract investment in Spain. Here is one reason offered by a US financial company "We Americans owe a particular debt to Spain. After all, financing by venture capitalist Spanish monarchs Ferdinand and Isabella led Italian entrepreneur Christopher Columbus to discover America in 1492.". Sounds a good reason to me


 Is that real??


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## nigele2

Alcalaina said:


> Is that real??


Very real. 

Well Mr Bean must be tossing and turning in his bed after today's union organised demonstrations and their delivered threat "If you do not go back on the retirement age we will call a general strike in January". Scary


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## Sonrisa

Alcalaina said:


> So do I. They haven't done much so far I think because they are still in denial that a PSOE government could do these things and are trying to negotiate. But I bet we see some action once they realise they have been kicked in the teeth. We could have our very own "winter of discontent"!
> 
> Zapatero ready to go it alone on pension reform · ELPAÍS.com in English


I hate to admit it but I am all agreement with the pension reform. I feel it is painful, but nevertheless necessary. 
Don't forget that now many in Spain live very long, population is rapidly aging, it has one of the highest life expentancies (sorry I can't spell) in the world and the burden falls in the young. 

THe retirement age needs to be pushed further. We live longer= we work longer

The future looks hard enough for our children.


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## nigele2

Dizzie Izzie said:


> I hate to admit it but I am all agreement with the pension reform. I feel it is painful, but nevertheless necessary.
> Don't forget that now many in Spain live very long, population is rapidly aging, it has one of the highest life expentancies (sorry I can't spell) in the world and the burden falls in the young.
> 
> THe retirement age needs to be pushed further. We live longer= we work longer
> 
> The future looks hard enough for our children.


I think if you look at it in isolation then as you say working longer makes sense. 

However by extending the retirement age you simple increase the pool of worker resource. At the moment Spain can only use about 70% of the current pool of worker resource (mostly inefficiently). So increasing it does nothing unless it is accompanied with a growing economy.

So rather than increase the worker pool I want to see efforts to attract investment, entrepreneurial-ism encouraged, and corruption removed from the spanish mentality - but sadly at the moment the answer to Jesús Sanz Astigarraga question to the Spanish people seems to be 'yes'


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## jojo

nigele2 said:


> I think if you look at it in isolation then as you say working longer makes sense.
> 
> However by extending the retirement age you simple increase the pool of worker resource. At the moment Spain can only use about 70% of the current pool of worker resource (mostly inefficiently). So increasing it does nothing unless it is accompanied with a growing economy.
> 
> So rather than increase the worker pool I want to see efforts to attract investment, entrepreneurial-ism encouraged, and corruption removed from the spanish mentality - but sadly at the moment the answer to Jesús Sanz Astigarraga question to the Spanish people seems to be 'yes'



Altho isnt it also true that working people spend more than retired folk and therefore would eventually generate more employment??? - summat like that anyway. The point is that people need to spend more to get the economy working again. That said, they need to not be borrowing as much as they were cos thats where the trouble started

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

Dizzie Izzie said:


> I hate to admit it but I am all agreement with the pension reform. I feel it is painful, but nevertheless necessary.
> Don't forget that now many in Spain live very long, population is rapidly aging, it has one of the highest life expentancies (sorry I can't spell) in the world and the burden falls in the young.
> 
> THe retirement age needs to be pushed further. We live longer= we work longer
> 
> The future looks hard enough for our children.


Whether we agree or disagree is irrelevant. The demographics make it inevitable. Not enough people of working age to be able to fund the pensions of future generations.
The West faces not-so-long-term decline.
Those of us who have enjoyed lifetimes of secure employment, rising living standards and unbelievable social and personal freedom are very fortunate. I can bemoan the fact that low interest and exchange rates have decreased my spending power but tbh my lifestyle hasn't been affected one iota, unlike many of the millions of jobless currently desperately chasing non-existent work...and no, they are NOT all layabouts and scroungers..
My son and dil earn a lot of money....but their well-paid positions in the financial world of the City hang day by day on a thread and like most people who are well-off they have huge mortgages to finance their fancy lifestyle. The higher you go, the further you fall, as the saying goes.
All this has come about chiefly because of the demise of communism and the opening of the world to free market trade and investment. It has undoubtedly lifted poor countries out of their poverty -well, those lucky enough to have commodities of interest to the west - but it has placed power over all our lives in the hands of a few individuals and the corporations they head.
Now....I have come to the conclusion that there is nothing we can do to change this set-up. If it is to die, it will do so of its own internal contradictions. There will be suffering and chaos on a global scale.
I accept this with sad resignation but I hope I will never lose the physical revulsion I feel when some sleek, overpaid [email protected] in Government or some city pundit tells me I have to accept 'austerity' for the sake of our national recovery.
I feel about the whole thing rather as Rebecca West once said about feminism: she said she didn't really know what feminism meant, only that she was accused of being a feminist every time she said or did something that distinguished her from being a doormat.
When I see _Sir_ Philip Green or _Lord_ Alan Sugar and their ilk demonstrating 'austerity', I might feel a little -just a very little - more willing to accept my part in it.


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> . The point is that people need to spend more to get the economy working again. That said, they need to not be borrowing as much as they were cos thats where the trouble started
> 
> Jo xxx


True but it begs the question: with unemployment rising because of the cuts in public spending initiated after the Coalition took office and as you rightly say the need to cut down the huge amount of personal debt: where is this spending money to come from?
Austerity and spending more: they don't really make good bedfellows, do they?


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> True but it begs the question: with unemployment rising because of the cuts in public spending initiated after the Coalition took office and as you rightly say the need to cut down the huge amount of personal debt: where is this spending money to come from?
> Austerity and spending more: they don't really make good bedfellows, do they?



...... I guess the private sector will step in and re create those jobs, if they dont it does beg the question were those jobs ever needed??? But you're right and without people living on credit as they did to fuel the last boom it does make you wonder. I suppose eventually it will have to go back to how it was before the credit crunch altho with the benefits of hindsight and devalued currencies - or maybe the Chinese will rush in and save us all????

Jo xxx


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## jojo

:focus: oooooopppppps :focus: 

Jo xxx


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## nigele2

jojo said:


> Altho isnt it also true that working people spend more than retired folk and therefore would eventually generate more employment??? - summat like that anyway. The point is that people need to spend more to get the economy working again. That said, they need to not be borrowing as much as they were cos thats where the trouble started
> 
> Jo xxx


Jo the problem is not to get people to spend but to get them to buy spanish products. A consumer led recovery is not sustainable if it is 85+% import based.

Sadly Spanish industry is not up to much. An example is how can it be efficient to export olives to Italy so that they can process them and take the lion's share of the profit? Have the Spanish lost the recipe?


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## nigele2

mrypg9 said:


> True but it begs the question: with unemployment rising because of the cuts in public spending initiated after the Coalition took office and as you rightly say the need to cut down the huge amount of personal debt: where is this spending money to come from?
> Austerity and spending more: they don't really make good bedfellows, do they?


Mary I can see the politician in you. This thread is about Spain. It does not have a coalition  And the spanish tend not to have huge amounts of personal debt. You're like all politicians, ask a question and you answer a different one


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> ...... I guess the private sector will step in and re create those jobs, if they dont it does beg the question were those jobs ever needed??? But you're right and without people living on credit as they did to fuel the last boom it does make you wonder. I suppose eventually it will have to go back to how it was before the credit crunch altho with the benefits of hindsight and devalued currencies - or maybe the Chinese will rush in and save us all????
> 
> Jo xxx


Both the CBI and the FSB have said they do not expect to be able to create enough jobs to take up the fallout from public sector cuts.
As for jobs being 'needed'....many jobs are 'unnecessary'...from personal trainers to hedge fund managers to tv pundits.
But if people have no work, whether socially useful or not, how are they to live?
No, we can't just 'go back' - the balance of power has shifted too radically.
Start learning Chinese might be a good course of action.


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## mrypg9

nigele2 said:


> Mary I can see the politician in you. This thread is about Spain. It does not have a coalition  And the spanish tend not to have huge amounts of personal debt. You're like all politicians, ask a question and you answer a different one


Spain is at the mercy of the same forces as the UK and almost every nation in the developed world. Spain's problems are almost but not quite identical to Ireland's, for example. Spain, Italy, Greece, Ireland....all are at the mercy of the international bond market. The causes are the same...what is different is the way each member state plans its road to recovery. 
The questions are the same as are the answers.
Spain's problem is that its prospects for growth are negligible. We all know why.....rigid labour laws, weak manufacturing sector, scarcity of venture capital and so on. 
And I was under the impression that Spain did have a coalition, albeit an informal one. The PSOE is the largest party in the Cortes but doesn't command a majority, verdad?


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## Sonrisa

It is very true that pushing the retirement age a few year will undoubtedly be detrimental to the unemployment figures but perhaps seeing each issue separately is the best way to stay focused. It has to be taken as two different problems: 1- Current retirement age is not sustainable in the short and long term future. Needs to go longer. And 2- New Employment reforms that encourage hiring and makes termination easier being the job market more dynamic. 

I said it before and I’ll say it again. IT is time we give up on the proerty market and get back to making things. At the end, exports is what generates growth and money..

Personally I don’t buy Chinese. Quality is terrible. Chinese cars are cheap as chips over here, but not reliable. I feel gratification when buying Spanish products abrad, toys, textile, biscuits,.. Whatever. Even my deep fryer over here is a Spanish brand! It is my own way of supporting my country’s economy. You may call me Idiot.


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## nigele2

mrypg9 said:


> Spain is at the mercy of the same forces as the UK and almost every nation in the developed world. Spain's problems are almost but not quite identical to Ireland's, for example. Spain, Italy, Greece, Ireland....all are at the mercy of the international bond market. The causes are the same...what is different is the way each member state plans its road to recovery.
> The questions are the same as are the answers.


Mary I find it hard to believe that you think Spain does not have unique and very serious problems. The article that led to this thread suggested there was a very real and fundamental difference between Spain and the countries it would like to be compared to. You only had to see the Union organised event in Spain yesterday and compare it to the student marches in London against increased tuition costs to see the point clearly illustrated. 

It is very easy to avoid the details; to ignore the people, to ignore the individuals who are suffering and as Mr Bean does blame the crisis, the world, and anyone but yourself. Then go and celebrate a new train ride for the rich and smile to the world media. However there are people (normal people) in the UK, Germany and France willing to stand up and be counted. The point is that in Spain these people if they exist must be very small in number.

ps. Yes I did put a wink after coalition but as I'm sure you know the spanish coalition is not like the UK COALITION


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## nigele2

Dizzie Izzie said:


> You may call me Idiot.


Or a dam good egg who cares about the people with whom you share your daily life. If there was just a bit more of that attitude what a sweeter place the world would be


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## gus-lopez

nigele2 said:


> Jo the problem is not to get people to spend but to get them to buy spanish products. A consumer led recovery is not sustainable if it is 85+% import based.
> 
> Sadly Spanish industry is not up to much. An example is how can it be efficient to export olives to Italy so that they can process them and take the lion's share of the profit? Have the Spanish lost the recipe?


Up until 2007 /8 olive oil was exported to Italy in ships ,re-processed & sold to the american market as Italian. The Spanish have been trying to break into the American market without success & now the bottom has fallen out of the exports to Italy. It's only being delivered in road tankers now, such is the scale of the fall! The spanish took the short-sighted route by exporting large volumes,& easy money to italy , leaving them to develop an export market & associated costs & now the demand has dropped the Italians don't need much more at present than they produce themselves & the spanish are left with a glut .


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## mrypg9

nigele2 said:


> Mary I find it hard to believe that you think Spain does not have unique and very serious problems. The article that led to this thread suggested there was a very real and fundamental difference between Spain and the countries it would like to be compared to. You only had to see the Union organised event in Spain yesterday and compare it to the student marches in London against increased tuition costs to see the point clearly illustrated.
> 
> It is very easy to avoid the details; to ignore the people, to ignore the individuals who are suffering and as Mr Bean does blame the crisis, the world, and anyone but yourself. Then go and celebrate a new train ride for the rich and smile to the world media. However there are people (normal people) in the UK, Germany and France willing to stand up and be counted. The point is that in Spain these people if they exist must be very small in number.
> 
> ps. Yes I did put a wink after coalition but as I'm sure you know the spanish coalition is not like the UK COALITION



Nigel...have you _read_ my posts?? Firstly, I am saying that like other Eurozone member states (and all countries in the world) Spain is at the mercy of global financial markets. In that sense its problems are not unique - they are shared by Portugal, Ireland, Greece etc.
Secondly, I have pointed out on many occasions that imo Spain's _unique_ problems lie in:
a) its misguided attempt to become the Florida of Europe, thus encouraging an unsustainable speculative bubble, the end result of which has been a glut of unsold properties, disfigurement of the costas, which may have put off the more aesthetically-minded tourist, massive unemployment and a large number of not-that-well-off immigrants, many of whom are now wondering how they can afford to get back home to the UK, ROI etc.
b) its rigid labour laws, which do not allow small employers in particular to ride the ups and downs of the economy and which discourage training and youth employment;
c) its lack of an entrepreneurial caste which provides easy access to venture capital and facilitates business start-ups;
d) its sheer physical size and climate and lack of sought-after mineral resources
and 
e) its political instability, not helped by the fact that the national government is a federal government presiding precariously over regions which are hell bent on autonomy.

It is precisely *because* of the individuals, the 'normal' people who are being told to tighten their belts while the rich and politicians of all parties carry on as usual, that my wrath has been kindled.
As for people in Germany etc being willing to 'stand up and be counted'....I would say 'So what?' I spent years standing up (and sitting down in Trafalgar Square, only to be politely but firmly lifted by a large policeman) to be counted...to what end?
Those student demonstrations in London made not one iota of difference...Parliament voted in favour. All they contributed to was a wave of disgust at the violence that unfortunately accompanied the marches. As a politician, I have been handed many petitions against this, that and the other...most of them had no impact on me whatsoever for the simple fact that there was no alternative *in the real world *to whatever it was they protested about.
Did the riots in France alter anything? Did the protests in Germany? Simple answer: no.
And it's unfair to write off the Spanish capacity for protest. Seventy-four years ago many ordinary Spanish people took up arms against a fascist military dictatorship, backed by the military might of Italy and Nazi Germany. The repercussions of their defeat were felt up to the death of Franco just over thirty years ago. As we know only too well, the corpses of Republicans, Socialists etc. are only now being given a decent burial.
Spanish people don't need to be told about standing on their feet.
But maybe they have learnt the hard way that empty gestures and protest for the sake of protest achieve nothing.


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## Pesky Wesky

Much that I agree with here.
Forget about the property market and start manufacturing. I think everybody in Spain knows that, even those in politics, but they don't make it easy enough (nor economically, nor organisationally - does that word exist?!) for us to do it!!
Extend the working age, but in conjunction with real job creation schemes, and not only in manual jobs. We need to get the scientists, the engineers, the pharmacists, the economists and the skilled machanists of the country working.
By all means compare the UK and Spain, but with the realisation that they are not suffering the same situation except that they are both in crisis.
And as for Chinese products, it's nigh on impossible to not buy Chinese in Spain. There are a few makes that are still 100% Spanish, but many items, although they carry a Spanish name, are actually manufactured in China. I bought a Joluvi jacket a few years ago after much searching, as I wanted to buy Spanish. After I'd had it for a few months I discovered that on one of the many (about 10) labels that it had that it actualy confessed to being "Made in China" even though all the other references are Spain and in Spanish. Chinese goods are changing. The quality is often comparable to European standards, and lots of times you don't even realise that you're buying Chinese


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> Spanish people don't need to be told about standing on their feet.
> But maybe they have learnt the hard way that empty gestures and protest for the sake of protest achieve nothing.


May be you're right. I think they lack the leader, or the enemy in as much as there isn't just one enemy and there aren't, for now, any leaders, don't you think?


----------



## nigele2

Mary I've spent many happy hours reading your threads 

But in this case you have ambushed a thread about the differences of Spain and offered the standard Mr Bean defense. Even if you think global issues dwarf those of Spain that is no reason to ignore them.

Have you seen Foyles War? He is a policeman who believes that despite the mass killings going on throughout Europe during WWII that each murder and wrong doing should be pursued. That justice for every individual is important. He could easily be sidetracked by the bigger picture. While accepting he is fictional there are people out there as you know and have no doubt met in your varied life who do just that. They fight against injustice and standup for what they believe in.

It saddens me if you think expressing your democratic rights in the past was a waste of time. I can assure you it wasn't. Seeing people actioning their democratic freedoms influenced me and many others even when we didn't understand or support the argument. It taught me that all views should be heard. It taught me that there are other views than those of the state, a vision not shared by my parents and previous generations. It taught me you can do more than just complain.

As for its value? - it shapes the world. Today's student could be tomorrows minister. Last night on the UK TV there was a series of face to face debates between student leaders, the police, the law, and politicians. We the public heard the views presented by people showing one another due respect. Without the protest that wouldn't have happened. Without the protests Labour would not be whewing the Libs. Without the protests tomorrows politicians would not have had a lesson in the cost of making false promises to the electorate.

Do you believe the suffragettes achieved nothing? Do you think the Ban the Bomb marches were meaningless? I believe you have previously agreed even the trade unions by protest delivered.

Just because you didn't win 100% or immediately doesn't make the protest worthless. After all it is possible that you were wrong  But by protesting you might just have made people think and ask the question. And I believe that is important.

As for the spanish Civil War it was lost and the Republicans in large numbers went to Mexico and other parts of the world. But as evident in Spain today it leaves unfinished business. And until the Spaniards sort it out they will continue to suffer.

Now where's that bottle of wine


----------



## mrypg9

nigele2 said:


> Mary I've spent many happy hours reading your threads
> 
> But in this case you have ambushed a thread about the differences of Spain and offered the standard Mr Bean defense. Even if you think global issues dwarf those of Spain that is no reason to ignore them.
> 
> Have you seen Foyles War? He is a policeman who believes that despite the mass killings going on throughout Europe during WWII that each murder and wrong doing should be pursued. That justice for every individual is important. He could easily be sidetracked by the bigger picture. While accepting he is fictional there are people out there as you know and have no doubt met in your varied life who do just that. They fight against injustice and standup for what they believe in.
> 
> It saddens me if you think expressing your democratic rights in the past was a waste of time. I can assure you it wasn't. Seeing people actioning their democratic freedoms influenced me and many others even when we didn't understand or support the argument. It taught me that all views should be heard. It taught me that there are other views than those of the state, a vision not shared by my parents and previous generations. It taught me you can do more than just complain.
> 
> As for its value? - it shapes the world. Today's student could be tomorrows minister. Last night on the UK TV there was a series of face to face debates between student leaders, the police, the law, and politicians. We the public heard the views presented by people showing one another due respect. Without the protest that wouldn't have happened. Without the protests Labour would not be whewing the Libs. Without the protests tomorrows politicians would not have had a lesson in the cost of making false promises to the electorate.
> 
> Do you believe the suffragettes achieved nothing? Do you think the Ban the Bomb marches were meaningless? I believe you have previously agreed even the trade unions by protest delivered.
> 
> Just because you didn't win 100% or immediately doesn't make the protest worthless. After all it is possible that you were wrong  But by protesting you might just have made people think and ask the question. And I believe that is important.
> 
> As for the spanish Civil War it was lost and the Republicans in large numbers went to Mexico and other parts of the world. But as evident in Spain today it leaves unfinished business. And until the Spaniards sort it out they will continue to suffer.
> 
> Now where's that bottle of wine


All I can say, Nigel, is that I am not ignoring Spain. Most of my post was concerned with Spain and its problems. 
Did protest achieve anything? On the whole, no. The Suffagettes didn't win the vote for women. They turned public opinion against them. It was the Great War 1914 which eventually persuaded politicians and the public that women should be enfranchised - they had shown by example in taking over jobs previously done by men that they were equal.
The Ban the Bomb marches weren't meaningless, they were great fun. I went on them. But they achieved nothing. More was achieved by the realisation by Gorbachev that the USSR simply couldn't compete with the USA in the arms race and the fact that that silly old buffer Reagan was actually a peacenik. 
I can't rememberever saying that Trades Union demos achieved anything. It's the negotiations and compromises behind the scenes that achieve positive outcomes.
So you heard people debating issues on tv....big deal. People have been debating issues since the Romams gathered in the forum. Talk is cheap. 
It isindeed important for people to be informed and informed debate is essential. But don't let's fool ourselves. Governments get elected on manifesto promises they blithely break....and get reelected. Less than 60 percent of the population bother to vote anyway.
I was in politics to get things done, not to take part in a debate. I soon found out that it was rare to be presented with a course of action which you would happily choose to follow. You usually had to choose between the lesser of two evils that were practical and doable. The Liberal Democrats got by for years promising the moon and stars...that was when they knew they had no chance of achieving office. Different now, eh?
I'm finding it difficult to determine what point you are making, other than that a) Zapatero is useless and fiddling while Spain burns and b) Spanish people should be on the streets.
Both true but ........will Rajoy do better? Can he buck the markets?


----------



## mrypg9

nigele2 said:


> Mary I've spent many happy hours reading your threads
> 
> But in this case you have ambushed a thread about the differences of Spain and offered the standard Mr Bean defense. Even if you think global issues dwarf those of Spain that is no reason to ignore them.
> 
> Have you seen Foyles War? He is a policeman who believes that despite the mass killings going on throughout Europe during WWII that each murder and wrong doing should be pursued. That justice for every individual is important. He could easily be sidetracked by the bigger picture. While accepting he is fictional there are people out there as you know and have no doubt met in your varied life who do just that. They fight against injustice and standup for what they believe in.
> 
> It saddens me if you think expressing your democratic rights in the past was a waste of time. I can assure you it wasn't. Seeing people actioning their democratic freedoms influenced me and many others even when we didn't understand or support the argument. It taught me that all views should be heard. It taught me that there are other views than those of the state, a vision not shared by my parents and previous generations. It taught me you can do more than just complain.
> 
> As for its value? - it shapes the world. Today's student could be tomorrows minister. Last night on the UK TV there was a series of face to face debates between student leaders, the police, the law, and politicians. We the public heard the views presented by people showing one another due respect. Without the protest that wouldn't have happened. Without the protests Labour would not be whewing the Libs. Without the protests tomorrows politicians would not have had a lesson in the cost of making false promises to the electorate.
> 
> Do you believe the suffragettes achieved nothing? Do you think the Ban the Bomb marches were meaningless? I believe you have previously agreed even the trade unions by protest delivered.
> 
> Just because you didn't win 100% or immediately doesn't make the protest worthless. After all it is possible that you were wrong  But by protesting you might just have made people think and ask the question. And I believe that is important.
> 
> As for the spanish Civil War it was lost and the Republicans in large numbers went to Mexico and other parts of the world. But as evident in Spain today it leaves unfinished business. And until the Spaniards sort it out they will continue to suffer.
> 
> Now where's that bottle of wine


All I can say, Nigel, is that I am not ignoring Spain. Most of my post was concerned with Spain and its problems. 
Did protest achieve anything? On the whole, no. The Suffagettes didn't win the vote for women. They turned public opinion against them by their extreme and violent antics. It was the Great War 1914 which eventually persuaded politicians and the public that women should be enfranchised - they had shown by example in taking over jobs previously done by men that they were equal.
The Ban the Bomb marches weren't meaningless, they were great fun. I went on them. But they achieved nothing. More was achieved by the realisation by Gorbachev that the USSR simply couldn't compete with the USA in the arms race and the fact that that silly old buffer Reagan was actually a peacenik. 
I can't rememberever saying that Trades Union demos achieved anything. It's the negotiations and compromises behind the scenes that achieve positive outcomes.
So you heard people debating issues on tv....big deal. People have been debating issues since the Romans gathered in the forum. Talk is cheap. 
It is indeed important for people to be informed and informed debate is essential. But don't let's fool ourselves. Governments get elected on manifesto promises they blithely break....and get reelected. Less than 60 percent of the population bother to vote anyway.
I was in politics to get things done, not to take part in a debate. I soon found out that it was rare to be presented with a course of action which you would happily choose to follow. You usually had to choose between the lesser of two evils that were practical and doable. The Liberal Democrats got by for years promising the moon and stars...that was when they knew they had no chance of achieving office. Different now, eh?
I'm finding it difficult to determine what point you are making, other than that a) Zapatero is useless and fiddling while Spain burns and b) Spanish people should be on the streets.
Both true but ........will Rajoy do better? Can he buck the markets?
PS Wine -cheap cava - in a glass next to my laptop


----------



## nigele2

mrypg9 said:


> I'm finding it difficult to determine what point you are making, other than that a) Zapatero is useless and fiddling while Spain burns and b) Spanish people should be on the streets.


OK I've known you long enough Mary  I'd like just one thread about Spain where comparison with the UK, brit bashing, and 'well it is the same everywhere' is kept to a minimum.

Your first post on this thread didn't mention spain, the spanish, a spaniard (unless Sir Philip Green has dual nationality ) once. Yet the thread was about a spaniard commenting on the Spanish.

However hidden in there are gems from :


Dizzie and Pesky on buying spanish and trying to help.
And Gus on the olive industry which is a great illustration of the greed shortterm gain factor.
and Alcalaina and Halydia chipping in

I want more of this understanding and you guys living in different parts of Spain who mix with Spaniards know a lot about the sentiments and spanish going ons. 

Those like me (and Pesky for example) with spanish family are close to the issues but I (can't speak for Pesky) cannot easily discuss these issues with my family. Unless you are very careful it sounds like "Brits know best". So to get a range of experiences is useful.

I'm advising my spanish stepdaughter to get out of spain now (she's 26) before her life is ruined. Thus this is important to me. Now (cause you're not finished yet Mary, I reckon just a bad day ) and in the past I would have been with you Mary in Trafalgar Square (replace Plaza Mayor) but that was us against the state/older generation/establishment. Now I'm playing with my stepdaughter's life.

Hope that makes sense.

Mary hope you understand 'cause I still want to bearbait and put the world to rights on your terrace one day but your recent posts saying "why did I bother?" depress me. You bothered because you cared. And you might think it had no effect but you are WRONG. 

I'll have a Cava because criticize I might but I care


----------



## Pesky Wesky

I too would prefer to hear about Spain on this thread, although all opinions and info are welcome, as always.
I know this is dear to your heart Nigel. I'm lucky in that my Spanish family has not been affected in the least by the crisis up to now - not the uncles nor the cousins nor the mums nor the dads - up till now, but I reckon we may still be where we are now when my daughter, the oldest in her generation, is ready to join the world of work in 5 years time and that is very sad.
In fact, my English family has been far more affected by unemployment with my sister and nephews all having problems.
Still I worry more about Spain than the UK for many reasons, not just my daughter, but also because I've lived here through the boom years and it felt good, _really_ good and I'd like Spain (and myself!) to be able to live that again. Spain definitely deserves it and has much to offer as well. I hope it/ we get the opportunity again


----------



## Guest

nigele2 said:


> Those like me (and Pesky for example) with spanish family are close to the issues but I (can't speak for Pesky) cannot easily discuss these issues with my family. Unless you are very careful it sounds like "Brits know best". So to get a range of experiences is useful.
> 
> I'm advising my spanish stepdaughter to get out of spain now (she's 26) before her life is ruined. Thus this is important to me. Now (cause you're not finished yet Mary, I reckon just a bad day ) and in the past I would have been with you Mary in Trafalgar Square (replace Plaza Mayor) but that was us against the state/older generation/establishment. Now I'm playing with my stepdaughter's life.


Things like this scare the dickens out of me. I'm younger than your stepdaughter and just starting out. My fiancé is older, and already in the Spanish state system as a teacher. Unfortunately for him, he's still on the substitutions list. We were thinking that next year he'll be bumped to either 1. a permanent "for life" job, or 2. get full year sub jobs. However, the other day his union told him that it's possible that NO new jobs for his specialty will be offered next year. Terrifying. Before meeting me, he bought an apartment. So many people I talk to tell me "Just sell it!" However, it's quite easy to say that and forget the state the current market is in.

We will always have the option of making a try in the US. However, we're chained to the mortgage he has on this apartment. Therefore, in the short term, we're "stuck" here. 

The hope is that he gets his "for life" job next year, and I follow soon after. However, due to paperwork headaches and Spanish universities admissions headaches, I fear I won't be able to do the necessary master's degree next year. One of the fascinating effects of the current crisis is that so, so many people are taking a stab at the teaching exams, especially for secondary school where much less is required to have to take the test (be "licenciado/a" and have either the "CAP" or the new Masters in Secondary Education). 

He gets kicked to the curb the day before Christmas, because the person he's subbing for is coming back then. It's going to be a Christmas _a dos velas_ for us. 

At least we're healthy and happy, and have family who support us. I cannot ask for more (apart from winning the lottery on the 22nd!)


Edit: And as you said, don't tell the locals things are bad. Things were bad here in the late 80s/90s when the steel mills closed.


----------



## mrypg9

nigele2 said:


> OK I've known you long enough Mary  I'd like just one thread about Spain where comparison with the UK, brit bashing, and 'well it is the same everywhere' is kept to a minimum.
> 
> Your first post on this thread didn't mention spain, the spanish, a spaniard (unless Sir Philip Green has dual nationality ) once. Yet the thread was about a spaniard commenting on the Spanish.
> 
> However hidden in there are gems from :
> 
> 
> Dizzie and Pesky on buying spanish and trying to help.
> And Gus on the olive industry which is a great illustration of the greed shortterm gain factor.
> and Alcalaina and Halydia chipping in
> 
> I want more of this understanding and you guys living in different parts of Spain who mix with Spaniards know a lot about the sentiments and spanish going ons.
> 
> Those like me (and Pesky for example) with spanish family are close to the issues but I (can't speak for Pesky) cannot easily discuss these issues with my family. Unless you are very careful it sounds like "Brits know best". So to get a range of experiences is useful.
> 
> I'm advising my spanish stepdaughter to get out of spain now (she's 26) before her life is ruined. Thus this is important to me. Now (cause you're not finished yet Mary, I reckon just a bad day ) and in the past I would have been with you Mary in Trafalgar Square (replace Plaza Mayor) but that was us against the state/older generation/establishment. Now I'm playing with my stepdaughter's life.
> 
> Hope that makes sense.
> 
> Mary hope you understand 'cause I still want to bearbait and put the world to rights on your terrace one day but your recent posts saying "why did I bother?" depress me. You bothered because you cared. And you might think it had no effect but you are WRONG.
> 
> I'll have a Cava because criticize I might but I care


But apart from telling your stepdaughter to get out of Spain...what solution have you? Not every Spaniard either wants to or is in a position to leave Spain.
I mix with Spaniards too, which might surprise you and yes, most of them are despondent and dissatisfied with their Government. Yet I was told only a few days ago that the situation is nothing as bad as twenty years ago....
Unemployment in my neck of the woods is around forty percent, as I've said before. Apart from an almost permanent extension of Plan E, I can see no solution.
So the future is indeed bleak.
If you look back, you will see that I intervened in this thread to reply to a post from Jo which talked in general terms about austerity. We don't
have thread police here to pull us back into line, thankfully.
I don't 'Brit bash' unless- I am bashing specific Brits- and I compare where I see comparisons to be made. Yes, sadly, it is the same everywhere. But to put it in context I'll quote the opening lines of Tolstoy's 'Anna Karenina'....
'All happy families are alike. But all unhappy families are each unhappy in their own particular way'.
That sums up for me the situation in Spain.
I have put forward some ideas as to what I think could be the way forward for Spain and Europe because Spain cannot distance itself, however much you wish it could.
And I haven't stopped caring. I have however given up wishful thinking.


----------



## mrypg9

It would seem that Spain _does_ have a high level of personal debt, mainly mortgage-based. I'm looking to find the exact data....
Apparently many Spaniards have fifty-year mortgages....


----------



## Alcalaina

nigele2 said:


> Very real.
> 
> Well Mr Bean must be tossing and turning in his bed after today's union organised demonstrations and their delivered threat "If you do not go back on the retirement age we will call a general strike in January". Scary


Last week there was a training course in our town for the Policia Local to learn crowd control techniques. This is apparently the first time such training has been carried out in Cadiz province. There is a photo of them in the local paper with riot shields and helmets. I can't help but wonder what they are expecting, and it makes me very sad.

As well as the national situation, there are towns like La Linea and Barbate where the Ayuntamiento has not been able to pay workers' wages for several months. They are protesting within the law at the moment but their patience won't last forever.


----------



## Sonrisa

mrypg9 said:


> It would seem that Spain _does_ have a high level of personal debt, mainly mortgage-based. I'm looking to find the exact data....
> Apparently many Spaniards have fifty-year mortgages....



Ouch, I had no idea. I thought personal debt was not a major problem in Spain.


----------



## baldilocks

One thing we all have to remember is that, politically, the Spanish are generally disorganised. Although there are, on the face of it, apparently only two main political parties - the socialist PSOE and the ex-Franco-Royalist conservative PP - there are also a strong element of Communist and Anarchist followers. Don't forget this is the only country where Anarchists have ever held power. 

The PSOE are unable to keep control without the support of the Unions, Socialist Party and Communists, but they help to keep the crooks of the PP out which means the people in general do keep some rights and privileges that they fought for during the Second Republic and Civil War - at least the local landlord no longer has the right to take to bed every young bride on her wedding night claiming the right to deflower her, and the peasants don't get the best of their crops taken by the landowner.


----------



## Alcalaina

baldilocks said:


> Don't forget this is the only country where Anarchists have ever held power.


Really? When was that then? They refused to vote during the Republic didn't they?


----------



## baldilocks

Alcalaina said:


> Really? When was that then? They refused to vote during the Republic didn't they?


Sorry, should have said that it was in Catalonia 1936-1939 and were condemned by some outsiders for getting involved with government. Similarly the Republican cause was helped along by the Communists which then brought in Russian support, but when the Francoist/Royalist side was being supported by the Nazis of Germany and Italy, what do you expect. What was Britain doing? Nothing! except for still doing business and getting mineral exports out of northern Spain while our useless politicians were advocating a non-interventional policy of appeasment just as they did over Hitler's advances.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

halydia said:


> Things like this scare the dickens out of me. I'm younger than your stepdaughter and just starting out. My fiancé is older, and already in the Spanish state system as a teacher. Unfortunately for him, he's still on the substitutions list. We were thinking that next year he'll be bumped to either 1. a permanent "for life" job, or 2. get full year sub jobs. However, the other day his union told him that it's possible that NO new jobs for his specialty will be offered next year. Terrifying. Before meeting me, he bought an apartment. So many people I talk to tell me "Just sell it!" However, it's quite easy to say that and forget the state the current market is in.
> 
> We will always have the option of making a try in the US. However, we're chained to the mortgage he has on this apartment. Therefore, in the short term, we're "stuck" here.
> 
> The hope is that he gets his "for life" job next year, and I follow soon after. However, due to paperwork headaches and Spanish universities admissions headaches, I fear I won't be able to do the necessary master's degree next year. One of the fascinating effects of the current crisis is that so, so many people are taking a stab at the teaching exams, especially for secondary school where much less is required to have to take the test (be "licenciado/a" and have either the "CAP" or the new Masters in Secondary Education).
> 
> He gets kicked to the curb the day before Christmas, because the person he's subbing for is coming back then. It's going to be a Christmas _a dos velas_ for us.
> 
> At least we're healthy and happy, and have family who support us. I cannot ask for more (apart from winning the lottery on the 22nd!)
> 
> 
> Edit: And as you said, don't tell the locals things are bad. Things were bad here in the late 80s/90s when the steel mills closed.


Yours is, unfortunately, a fairly common situation as far as I understand. I mean in that you have two young, well qualified people who have done things right ie studied and got qualifications, have a lot to offer and aren't being given the opportunity to contribute.
Hold on in there halydia!


----------



## Guest

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yours is, unfortunately, a fairly common situation as far as I understand. I mean in that you have two young, well qualified people who have done things right ie studied and got qualifications, have a lot to offer and aren't being given the opportunity to contribute.
> Hold on in there halydia!


Oh well. We're lucky to have some "old guns" on our side who are helping us to learn to play the system just right. My OH has been working on his _programación_ all afternoon, I'm proud of him!  

(For those who aren't in the public school loop: Spanish teachers are "hired" through a test. Those who have the highest amount of points when you add up their exam score + years of experience + professional training courses + publications + prizes + degrees get the amount of "for life" jobs offered that year. For example, three "for life" music jobs come out. OH gets a 7/10 on the test, and has a number of points from courses but has few years of experience. Someone with 5 years of experience and a bunch of courses, but a lower grade on the test will get the "for life" spot over him. Those who don't make the "for life" cut get put on a substitutions list and are called throughout the year to sub for long leaves that "for life" teachers make. Your position on these lists pretty much determines how much and if you will work. It's pretty terrifying, but it's the only way to get the experience!) 

We'll figure things out. Thank you for the faith!  It helps.


----------



## mrypg9

Interesting programme on Radio 4 last night, cn't remember what it was called, 'Business Forum' or similar. Anyway, the theme was the troubles in the eurozone and one pundit expressed the opinion that entering the eurozone was the cause of Spain's problems: loads of credit at low interest rates fuelling government spending and the construction boom.
Interestingly, when someone mentioned the technical aspects of a two-tier euro for Spain and other perimeter states it was glossed over.
Whatever the unique problems of each EU state -Italy's vast public sector debt, Germany's weak domestic demand, Greece's lax tax collection regime and so on.....the catalyst for whatever measures needed is the volatile and fickle bond market.
The programme reminded listeners of who the bond market consists of: banks, insurance funds, pension funds ....in other words, nearly every one of us in involved in some way or other.


----------



## baldilocks

The other option for teaching is the number of private academy positions. Kids here mostly finish their normal schooling at about 2.30 - 3 go home for a lunch, take a short break and then back out to start their extra-curricula activities which may include language lessons, music lessons (we have a thriving band in the village), mathematics, etc. not to mention karate, art classes, etc. Since the teachers in State schools are (officially) not allowed to moonlight, there are opportunities for other *qualified* teachers to get in on the private sector. If you are part of an academy, then you will have a contract and make your contributions to the Soc Sec for pension and health care benefits just as you would if you were part of the State school system.


----------



## Alcalaina

baldilocks said:


> Sorry, should have said that it was in Catalonia 1936-1939 and were condemned by some outsiders for getting involved with government. Similarly the Republican cause was helped along by the Communists which then brought in Russian support, but when the Francoist/Royalist side was being supported by the Nazis of Germany and Italy, what do you expect. What was Britain doing? Nothing! except for still doing business and getting mineral exports out of northern Spain while our useless politicians were advocating a non-interventional policy of appeasment just as they did over Hitler's advances.


Thanks, I´ll check that out. I´m quite interested in the history of the anarchosyndicalist movement as I live near Casas Viejas, where there was a tragic attempt at an uprising in 1933 which you´ve probably heard about (it may have helped bring down Azana´s Republican government).

Actually Britain did a lot to support the Nationalists, covertly. They also stopped the French from helping the Republicans (one of the reasons the Russians moved in). The non-intervention line was rubbed out in all sorts of ways.


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Thanks, I´ll check that out. I´m quite interested in the history of the anarchosyndicalist movement as I live near Casas Viejas, where there was a tragic attempt at an uprising in 1933 which you´ve probably heard about (it may have helped bring down Azana´s Republican government).
> 
> Actually Britain did a lot to support the Nationalists, covertly. They also stopped the French from helping the Republicans (one of the reasons the Russians moved in). The non-intervention line was rubbed out in all sorts of ways.




Hugh Thomas writes about that uprising. As well as the diplomatic support given 
covertly -and half-heartedly - we will of course not forget the money collected by the ILP, the Labour Party and the British Trades Union movement and also of course the thousands of volunteers who put their lives on the line againt fascism by joining the International Brigades.


----------



## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> Hugh Thomas writes about that uprising. As well as the diplomatic support given
> covertly -and half-heartedly - we will of course not forget the money collected by the ILP, the Labour Party and the British Trades Union movement and also of course the thousands of volunteers who put their lives on the line againt fascism by joining the International Brigades.


Of course - I should have said the British GOVERNMENT covertly helped the fascists. La Quinta Brigada and all the working-class support is quite a different matter. My dad said he would have volunteered if he'd been a few years older, so I might not be here if he had!


----------



## baldilocks

Try reading the following book:

Gabriel Jackson's "Second republic and the Spanish civil war" is a very good book about recent history in Spain, a little heavy to read in places but excellent and gives you a very good background to why modern Spain is as it is. You can see many of the old causes of unrest still persist among modern Spanish politics.

This was originally in another thread "Books about Spain" and is about as accurate a version as you will find. The author appears to have made no attempt to put in his two penn'orth about his feelings, just laid it out as it is/was.


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> Of course - I should have said the British GOVERNMENT covertly helped the fascists. La Quinta Brigada and all the working-class support is quite a different matter. My dad said he would have volunteered if he'd been a few years older, so I might not be here if he had!


When I was young and _very_ left-wing (CP) I met a few veterans of the International Brigades. I suppose the most famous was Jack Jones but there were others not so well-known in later life but still flying the red flag. One was also called Jones, Bill Jones who worked as a railway porter when he returned until he retired in the '70s sometime.
Both of them used to joke that the way their Spanish comrades pronounced their names made it sound like '*******'....


----------



## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> Both of them used to joke that the way their Spanish comrades pronounced their names made it sound like '*******'....


Have you ever noticed that conejos is an anagram of *******? perhaps that is why we have the expression "to breed like rabbits!"


----------



## Alcalaina

baldilocks said:


> Try reading the following book:
> 
> Gabriel Jackson's "Second republic and the Spanish civil war" is a very good book about recent history in Spain, a little heavy to read in places but excellent and gives you a very good background to why modern Spain is as it is. You can see many of the old causes of unrest still persist among modern Spanish politics.
> 
> This was originally in another thread "Books about Spain" and is about as accurate a version as you will find. The author appears to have made no attempt to put in his two penn'orth about his feelings, just laid it out as it is/was.


Yes, I have read it and I prefer it to Hugh Thomas.


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Have you ever noticed that conejos is an anagram of *******? perhaps that is why we have the expression "to breed like rabbits!"




My OH had trouble pronouncing '*******' when we first came here and began to refer to them as 'codgers'.
I should add she used the word with reference to our dog quien tiene los....muy grandes...


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## Rafael Alba Saborido

halydia said:


> Before meeting me, he bought an apartment. So many people I talk to tell me "Just sell it!" However, it's quite easy to say that and forget the state the current market is in.
> 
> We will always have the option of making a try in the US. However, we're chained to the mortgage he has on this apartment. Therefore, in the short term, we're "stuck" here.


In Spain, a mortgage on an apartment means that you (and all the “avalista”, financial, in your mortgage) get responsible for the payment with *ALL YOUR PRESENT AND FUTURE INCOME* (including the one from the “avalistas” with you in the mortgage).

In your personal case you must see WHAT IS BETTER FOR YOU. Can you afford to pay the mortgage every month for at least the next 15-20 years without failing? That is what will take (despite the junk that mass-media sells) to the Spanish economy to climb the next expansion cycle (if we don’t get another civil war in the meantime...  since the last one in 1936 we have the longest time in Spain history without general civil war, except the “maquis” invasion of Valle de Aran in 1947).

The market now is low but is going to get worse in 2011-2012 and so on. Do you think that with 50% of people between 18-25 years old, and 34% of 25-30% unemployment, more than one million of families with ANY income (and growing) a country can go on?.

Some has seen it and this year nearly 200.000 Spaniards has migrated to others countries… and what is coming… Only by the Catholic Church (through “Caritas” foundation) and the strong family-social net the country goes on… for now. Who knows the future?.

You must think in the possibility of losing all here in Spain and making a new start in another country (mortgage debts don’t come with you overseas…).

Merry Christmas.


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## gus-lopez

Rafael Alba Saborido said:


> You must think in the possibility of losing all here in Spain and making a new start in another country (mortgage debts don’t come with you overseas…).
> 
> Merry Christmas.


They do if you stay in europe !


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## littleredrooster

Not sure if that previous link is working.

Costa nightmare could cost us our UK home | This is Money


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## Rafael Alba Saborido

littleredrooster said:


> Not sure if that previous link is working.


Yes, it works. And is true. Let´s see some points of the article:

*"When repayments became difficult last year, they offered to give the apartment to the bank, but it refused to accept - and instead launched a bid to seize their British home."*

That´s because when you don´t pay the mortgage you get charged with an interest rate of around 30%... so now you have an ever increasing debt. Why the bank is going to get a house that don´t worth nothing when they can get all your present and future incomes-properties?

Even in case that you get a payment agree with the bank (I don´t know if is the same in other countries), you make the payments through a Court. You will be surprise that now the bank has no obligation to inform you wich interest rates are you really paying. . Not also the amount of capital or interest are you paying each month.

This is because in Spanish legislation, the bank is supposed to ever work with "good faith". It´s like a notary public (even more because him has to give information to Court). So even the court is unable to give you that "so complicated" information.


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## baldilocks

littleredrooster said:


> Not sure if that previous link is working.
> 
> Costa nightmare could cost us our UK home | This is Money


It sounds like the old case of "Don't bite off more than you can chew!" or in more simple terms to take on more debt than you can safely pay for with a fraction of your income which is why when granting you a mortgage, the financial institution used to insist that ALL your outgoings could be safely accomplished within 33% of your income, i.e. you could meet a month's mortgage payment with one week's pay and still have some to service other debt and pay the rates, etc.


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## gus-lopez

baldilocks said:


> It sounds like the old case of "Don't bite off more than you can chew!" or in more simple terms to take on more debt than you can safely pay for with a fraction of your income which is why when granting you a mortgage, the financial institution used to insist that ALL your outgoings could be safely accomplished within 33% of your income, i.e. you could meet a month's mortgage payment with one week's pay and still have some to service other debt and pay the rates, etc.


Yes , you're quite right the mortgage alone could not be more than 1 weeks gross income. I always remember that !


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> It sounds like the old case of "Don't bite off more than you can chew!" or in more simple terms to take on more debt than you can safely pay for with a fraction of your income which is why when granting you a mortgage, the financial institution used to insist that ALL your outgoings could be safely accomplished within 33% of your income, i.e. you could meet a month's mortgage payment with one week's pay and still have some to service other debt and pay the rates, etc.


Quite. Let's hope those kind of conditions will now be reintroduced. We've discussed this before. I have no sympathy for this feckless couple.
Last week I was at a party and was introduced to a youngish woman who owned an estate agency. We got talking and discussed our house and the rent we pay. She expressed surprise and said we could buy a million euro house with that kind of repayment.
I asked her who in god's name would give a mortgage to someone of my age and she replied that it would be no problem.......
Complete and utter lunacy. Will people ever learn????


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