# Sharia Law



## MaidenScotland

Salafi groups speak confidently about their ambition to turn Egypt into a state where personal freedoms, including freedom of speech, women's dress and art, are constrained by Islamic Sharia codes.
'In the land of Islam, I can't let people decide what is permissible or what is prohibited. It's God who gives the answers as to what is right and what is wrong,' Hamad said.
'If God tells me you can drink whatever you want except for alcohol, you don't leave the million things permitted and ask about the prohibited.'


Read more: Islamic fundamentalists set to force Sharia law on Egypt after election victory | Mail Online


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## Cairo Cathy

They should all catch a plane to Riyadh


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## kevinthegulf

If the results go the way it is looking, and I do not see that the boys in Khaki have got a cunning plan up there sleeves( that will prove to be acceptable), to fix the rest of the results, then we are stepping onto the slipperry slope to Iran mark 2.

The genie is out of the bottle, it was ok keeping things suppressed, but now (in the near future) thse parties have legitimacy, I cannot see how the military will "take control" again if 60% have voted for the Islamic parties. There would be a massive backlash.

It shows what a well organised group can achieve while all the liberal etc want to play at politics, the serious ones get results- remember the man with a little moustache nearly 80 years ago.

This forum will probably be on the banned list soon!!


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## Cairo Cathy

You have to ask yourself what is the real reason for the Islamic rise in the region.
What is the root of it.

Go back 60 years and ask yourself were there suicide bombers and Hamas and Hezbullah and Islamic Jihad.

Injustice oppression and theft breeds resistance. They are just a reaction to the actions of in the main 3 countries.
When you take everything away from people and torture them then they turn to religion.
See the wave spread over North Africa and it will carry on across the Gulf because of one cancerous sore that will never heal in the region and it is not Iran.


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## Sonrisa

Cairo Cathy said:


> You have to ask yourself what is the real reason for the Islamic rise in the region.
> What is the root of it.
> 
> Go back 60 years and ask yourself were there suicide bombers and Hamas and Hezbullah and Islamic Jihad.
> 
> Injustice oppression and theft breeds resistance. They are just a reaction to the actions of in the main 3 countries.
> When you take everything away from people and torture them then they turn to religion.
> See the wave spread over North Africa and it will carry on across the Gulf because of one cancerous sore that will never heal in the region and it is not
> 
> Iran.


I tend to agree thad USA/Israel/UK foreing policies have done quite a few damages in the region but simply blaming them for all the evils is just plain wrong and something that bores me to death. 
The fact remais that Egypt population has multiplied out of control, they are largely uneducated and they simply dont have the resources to substain/feed/heal themselves. Add to the fact that wealth is is very unevely distributed, it breeds trouble. 

People turn to God/Ala when they are desperate, even if you rid the Region of USA/foreing influencies, things will be just as bad when people realise that doh, they are still going hungry.


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## PaulAshton

Cairo Cathy said:


> You have to ask yourself what is the real reason for the Islamic rise in the region.
> What is the root of it.
> 
> Go back 60 years and ask yourself were there suicide bombers and Hamas and Hezbullah and Islamic Jihad.
> 
> Injustice oppression and theft breeds resistance. They are just a reaction to the actions of in the main 3 countries.
> When you take everything away from people and torture them then they turn to religion.
> See the wave spread over North Africa and it will carry on across the Gulf because of one cancerous sore that will never heal in the region and it is not Iran.


Egypt now more than ever needs to keep peace with Israel and encourage foreign investment and show that no matter which political party comes into power it can show it is democratic, moderate and a place people can come on holiday to and also purchase property.

The UK, USA and EU (Italy, Spain, Greece) have issues that I hope Egypt can learn from in the future, Egypt is a great country with lots of resources and with the right kind of government can be the most powerful country in North Africa and still be able to maintain it's cultural identity whilst still being a friend to the west, this is something that Iran should look towards if it wants to progress, I don't hear of Israel hanging gays or stoning people to death

Terms you have used to define Israel as "zionist" and "cancerous" are simply not acceptable, Egypt cannot blame it's issues on Israel, the only real threat are the Salafi jihadists who constitute less than 1 percent of the world's 1.9 billion Muslims (c. 10 million) if they come into power we might as well all use 3 rocks and mud to wipe our bottoms instead of toilet paper, drown flies in our drinks (as one wing contains the poison and the other the antidote) and use camel urine and nigella as something that will cure all disease except death, also expect a renewal of the fatwa for the Muslim phenomenon of "adult-breastfeeding," or rida' al-kabir 

All that aside different religions including Christians have been killing for centuries simply because the human species are dangerous predators and cannot live in peace


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## DeadGuy

MaidenScotland said:


> Salafi groups speak confidently about their ambition to turn Egypt into a state where personal freedoms, including freedom of speech, women's dress and art, are constrained by Islamic Sharia codes.
> 'In the land of Islam, I can't let people decide what is permissible or what is prohibited. It's God who gives the answers as to what is right and what is wrong,' Hamad said.
> 'If God tells me you can drink whatever you want except for alcohol, you don't leave the million things permitted and ask about the prohibited.'
> 
> 
> Read more: Islamic fundamentalists set to force Sharia law on Egypt after election victory | Mail Online


_'In the land of Islam, I can't let people decide what is permissible or what is prohibited. It's God who gives the answers as to what is right and what is wrong,' Hamad said._

The whole bloody world is _the land of Islam_ for them, except when they're alone in their bedrooms watching porns and drinking 

Sadly the average Muslim citizen looks to those people as if they're Gods, believing everything they say and never question it or look if those "leaders" are actually doing what they want people to do or not!


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## Cairo Cathy

Sonrisa said:


> I tend to agree thad USA/Israel/UK foreing policies have done quite a few damages in the region but simply blaming them for all the evils is just plain wrong and something that bores me to death.
> The fact remais that Egypt population has multiplied out of control, they are largely uneducated and they simply dont have the resources to substain/feed/heal themselves. Add to the fact that wealth is is very unevely distributed, it breeds trouble.
> 
> People turn to God/Ala when they are desperate, even if you rid the Region of USA/foreing influencies, things will be just as bad when people realise that doh, they are still going hungry.


To reply to this would take too long because you would need a complete education on this region.


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## Cairo Cathy

PaulAshton said:


> Egypt now more than ever needs to keep peace with Israel and encourage foreign investment and show that no matter which political party comes into power it can show it is democratic, moderate and a place people can come on holiday to and also purchase property.
> 
> The UK, USA and EU (Italy, Spain, Greece) have issues that I hope Egypt can learn from in the future, Egypt is a great country with lots of resources and with the right kind of government can be the most powerful country in North Africa and still be able to maintain it's cultural identity whilst still being a friend to the west, this is something that Iran should look towards if it wants to progress, I don't hear of Israel hanging gays or stoning people to death
> 
> Terms you have used to define Israel as "zionist" and "cancerous" are simply not acceptable, Egypt cannot blame it's issues on Israel, the only real threat are the Salafi jihadists who constitute less than 1 percent of the world's 1.9 billion Muslims (c. 10 million) if they come into power we might as well all use 3 rocks and mud to wipe our bottoms instead of toilet paper, drown flies in our drinks (as one wing contains the poison and the other the antidote) and use camel urine and nigella as something that will cure all disease except death, also expect a renewal of the fatwa for the Muslim phenomenon of "adult-breastfeeding," or rida' al-kabir
> 
> All that aside different religions including Christians have been killing for centuries simply because the human species are dangerous predators and cannot live in peace


How about when Jews themselves call the zionism a cancer? Is that acceptable?


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## Cairo Cathy

DeadGuy said:


> _'In the land of Islam, I can't let people decide what is permissible or what is prohibited. It's God who gives the answers as to what is right and what is wrong,' Hamad said._
> 
> The whole bloody world is _the land of Islam_ for them, except when they're alone in their bedrooms watching porns and drinking
> 
> Sadly the average Muslim citizen looks to those people as if they're Gods, believing everything they say and never question it or look if those "leaders" are actually doing what they want people to do or not!



The average Muslim is scared stiff that Egypt will become a Saudi.
Funny the strange relationship the Americans have with the Al Saud family don't you think?
The Bush Bin Laden relationship and all the rest of it.
The hijackers were Saudi yet you never hear Americans wanting to cut ties or invade or bomb Saudi to stop the spread of Wahabi doctrine and burn it's nest. 

Of course that thinking would lead to no cars on the roads or lights in the streets of the USA in a very short time.

Why don't the American people call for the bombing of Riyadh instead of Tehran if that is the nest of extremists?


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## DeadGuy

Cairo Cathy said:


> The average Muslim is scared stiff that Egypt will become a Saudi.
> Funny the strange relationship the Americans have with the Al Saud family don't you think?
> The Bush Bin Laden relationship and all the rest of it.
> The hijackers were Saudi yet you never hear Americans wanting to cut ties or invade or bomb Saudi to stop the spread of Wahabi doctrine and burn it's nest.
> 
> Of course that thinking would lead to no cars on the roads or lights in the streets of the USA in a very short time.
> 
> Why don't the American people call for the bombing of Riyadh instead of Tehran if that is the nest of extremists?


The average Muslims were carrying Saudi flags down in Tahrir square and they were happy doing that.......

The strange relationships Americans have with Al Saud family is a business relationship, the Saud family got the oil, the Americans got the money for it 

The Bush Bin Laden relationship, Bush trained the d!ckhead to do the dirty jobs for him 

And again, ties won't be cut, that's not smart for business relationships......

And it won't be no cars or light ONLY in USA, but Arabs wouldn't be able to brag with their expensive Luxus, Hummer, Mercedes etc., or sitting behind their American made HP laptops watching porns and swearing at the American pigs 

Why don't the Americans bomb Tehran instead? Cause while the Arabs were laying in their beds watching porns and getting drunk, the Iranians were busy in their nuclear labs


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## PaulAshton

Cairo Cathy said:


> The average Muslim is scared stiff that Egypt will become a Saudi.
> Funny the strange relationship the Americans have with the Al Saud family don't you think?
> The Bush Bin Laden relationship and all the rest of it.
> The hijackers were Saudi yet you never hear Americans wanting to cut ties or invade or bomb Saudi to stop the spread of Wahabi doctrine and burn it's nest.
> 
> Of course that thinking would lead to no cars on the roads or lights in the streets of the USA in a very short time.
> 
> Why don't the American people call for the bombing of Riyadh instead of Tehran if that is the nest of extremists?


These people were affiliated with Al-Qaeda which has hijacked Islam and not an act of Islam versus Christianity, Judaism or Western thinking. Rather, it is a war of fundamentalism against faiths of all kinds that are at peace with freedom and modernity, every religion is compatible with the best and the worst of humankind

It would be a bit like the American people calling to kill the pope for the actions of the KKK or other fundamentalists who based their beliefs on a religious foundation in Christianity.

Once I see wine turned into water Christian style or find that writing verses 36:78–83 from the Q'uran on paper and hanging it on the side of my ear of an aching tooth to remove the toothache then I will believe

Apparently Jesus also made a bird out of clay. Then when Jesus breathed into this clay‑bird it became alive and flew away. Allah empowered Jesus to heal the lepers, and to give life to the dead persons


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## expatlady

MaidenScotland said:


> Salafi groups speak confidently about their ambition to turn Egypt into a state where personal freedoms, including freedom of speech, women's dress and art, are constrained by Islamic Sharia codes.
> 'In the land of Islam, I can't let people decide what is permissible or what is prohibited. It's God who gives the answers as to what is right and what is wrong,' Hamad said.
> 'If God tells me you can drink whatever you want except for alcohol, you don't leave the million things permitted and ask about the prohibited.'
> 
> 
> Read more: Islamic fundamentalists set to force Sharia law on Egypt after election victory | Mail Online


Well, for those of us who are sitting on the fence, thinking of investing in Egyptian property, this means, hmm, we will remain sitting on the fence. (Or, start looking towards Spain, etc.)


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## hurghadapat

DeadGuy said:


> The average Muslims were carrying Saudi flags down in Tahrir square and they were happy doing that.......
> 
> The strange relationships Americans have with Al Saud family is a business relationship, the Saud family got the oil, the Americans got the money for it
> 
> The Bush Bin Laden relationship, Bush trained the d!ckhead to do the dirty jobs for him
> 
> And again, ties won't be cut, that's not smart for business relationships......
> 
> And it won't be no cars or light ONLY in USA, but Arabs wouldn't be able to brag with their expensive Luxus, Hummer, Mercedes etc., or sitting behind their American made HP laptops watching porns and swearing at the American pigs
> 
> Why don't the Americans bomb Tehran instead? Cause while the Arabs were laying in their beds watching porns and getting drunk, the Iranians were busy in their nuclear labs


WOW.....Deadguy harsh words but all so so true and also BRAVO to you for having the guts to say what i am sure many people are thinking.:clap2::clap2::clap2:


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## DeadGuy

hurghadapat said:


> WOW.....Deadguy harsh words but all so so true and also BRAVO to you for having the guts to say what i am sure many people are thinking.:clap2::clap2::clap2:


Truth always hurt...........

It doesn't need anyone to have "guts" to say anything like that, this is what's happening right now, and MANY of my Muslim friends do say what I said themselves, this is what is happening on the ground! But some people choose to blame the _West_ and accusing everyone to be Islamophobic or not knowing enough about the situation in here the whole bloody time instead of just admitting the Goddamn problem and facing it!


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## hubbly_bubbly

Whether the MENA regimes continue to fall or consolidate power, the ultimate power (vacuum) is being filled by not what is intellectually right nor best, as in good governance, but what is philosophically right and best, and that is either with or through religious "guidance". 

This Islamic emergence is growing, at speed, across the Arab and North African states because there is no general acceptance, naturally, to a quick and easy pop-up fix with democracy, let alone individual freedom(s).

And this doesn't include Deadguy's correlation of the West and the definite need to address Tehran, Damascus and Tel Aviv and big oil and big business. 

But at street level in Cairo, I saw enough, heard enough and had my life threatened enough back in the early days of the revolution to know that the "transition" will not go accordingly to plan - who's plan I am still not quite sure - nor will it go the way that everyone wants, least of all those wishing for good and fair governance, any time soon.

Just my humble opinion.


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## expatagogo

Cairo Cathy said:


> The average Muslim is scared stiff that Egypt will become a Saudi.
> Funny the strange relationship the Americans have with the Al Saud family don't you think?
> The Bush Bin Laden relationship and all the rest of it.
> The hijackers were Saudi yet you never hear Americans wanting to cut ties or invade or bomb Saudi to stop the spread of Wahabi doctrine and burn it's nest.
> 
> Of course that thinking would lead to no cars on the roads or lights in the streets of the USA in a very short time.
> 
> Why don't the American people call for the bombing of Riyadh instead of Tehran if that is the nest of extremists?


Oil from Saudi is a small fraction of US oil imports: US Petroleum Imports by Country « The Cost of Energy

The biggest suppliers are local - Canada and Mexico, not to mention what's produced by the US itself. Really, the lights aren't going to go out any time soon. 
Also, Saudi has shown, repeatedly, that it is quite capable of rooting out extremism - the really bad guys - and dealing with it swiftly - and severely. 

Cathy, Egypt's problems and its future aren't anyone's to solve but Egypt's. The days of the boogyman (Israel, the west, etc.) are supposed to be over, and Egypt is supposed to be moving forward. And it has, with elections proving that there is the making of a fragile democracy. 

Personally? I believe Egypt's been had. I saw it coming with the general set up of the elections - the less conservative (Cairo, Sharm) areas voting first so the needed outcomes in the other governates could be established and Bedoins will shore it up with a very pro-Salafi vote. Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.


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## MaidenScotland

Cairo Cathy said:


> To reply to this would take too long because you would need a complete education on this region.




I presume by that answer that you are an expert in the region?


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## Whitedesert

expatlady said:


> Well, for those of us who are sitting on the fence, thinking of investing in Egyptian property, this means, hmm, we will remain sitting on the fence. (Or, start looking towards Spain, etc.)


Spain? Mnnn, dont think I'll move any investments there, for now...


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## MaidenScotland

expatagogo said:


> Oil from Saudi is a small fraction of US oil imports: US Petroleum Imports by Country « The Cost of Energy
> 
> The biggest suppliers are local - Canada and Mexico, not to mention what's produced by the US itself. Really, the lights aren't going to go out any time soon.
> Also, Saudi has shown, repeatedly, that it is quite capable of rooting out extremism - the really bad guys - and dealing with it swiftly - and severely.
> 
> Cathy, Egypt's problems and its future aren't anyone's to solve but Egypt's. The days of the boogyman (Israel, the west, etc.) are supposed to be over, and Egypt is supposed to be moving forward. And it has, with elections proving that there is the making of a fragile democracy.
> 
> Personally? I believe Egypt's been had. I saw it coming with the general set up of the elections - the less conservative (Cairo, Sharm) areas voting first so the needed outcomes in the other governates could be established and Bedoins will shore it up with a very pro-Salafi vote. Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.




I am not a lover of the Uk/USA involvement in middle east countries but for them to be blamed for ever wrong in the region as you have pointed out is absurd. It is easy to bash and forget the good that our countries have done regardless of the reason many many people have benefited from their influence. 

It makes me smile when the west is bashed as there is without doubt more people here wanting to go to west than westerners wanting to come here.

The Egyptians I know that say they don't want to live in the west actually have the choice if they want to go and that is the difference from the man in the street who is desperate to go.


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## DeadGuy

expatagogo said:


> Oil from Saudi is a small fraction of US oil imports: US Petroleum Imports by Country « The Cost of Energy
> 
> The biggest suppliers are local - Canada and Mexico, not to mention what's produced by the US itself. Really, the lights aren't going to go out any time soon.
> Also, Saudi has shown, repeatedly, that it is quite capable of rooting out extremism - the really bad guys - and dealing with it swiftly - and severely.
> 
> Cathy, Egypt's problems and its future aren't anyone's to solve but Egypt's. The days of the boogyman (Israel, the west, etc.) are supposed to be over, and Egypt is supposed to be moving forward. And it has, with elections proving that there is the making of a fragile democracy.
> 
> Personally? I believe Egypt's been had. I saw it coming with the general set up of the elections - the less conservative (Cairo, Sharm) areas voting first so the needed outcomes in the other governates could be established and Bedoins will shore it up with a very pro-Salafi vote. Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.


The _Invisible fingers_, along with the _West_ are still the most popular causes of each and every problem that occurs in here, and it will most probably be the case for a long time -Might change to something like the Infidels or something :lol:- but the concept will always be used, they need someone to blame.........

The elections' main problem is obvious, people simply don't know what the word _democracy_ means, people don't think there's anything wrong with anyone telling them to vote for the _Followers of Allah_ cause that's just a deep belief in people's heads already.......To be "reminded" of that isn't a big deal for most people in here, specially when those "reminders" are made in a perfectly planned sneaky way, with the help of few tons of "gifts" that's already paid for 

The new boss won't be as the old one, it will be far worse cause religion will be stuck up everything's ar$e; Abu Ismael in his latest appearance on a talk show, "appealed" the government to_ start getting ready to enforce the Hijab in its official offices_ already! And the elections aren't even over yet! 

The point where those who will be in charge use the very popular _if you don't do that then you'll be breaking Allah's rules_ is coming next I think, very soon, and they most likely won't even need to use it THAT often, cause almost no one will even oppose them cause I'm pretty sure everyone's convinced that they're "God's sent" already


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## hubbly_bubbly

But isn't there good reason for the blame?

The West has been more than meddling in the ME, in earnest, since the 1900's - not forgetting the British occupation of Egypt in 1882 for mainly political stability in its favour nor the wrestling for western control over the Suez Canal for some 70 years, again for its own opportunism. And you guys pretty much know what's been happening in Egypt since the 50's.

And it's not only these two vague examples, but in the broader area there's the formation of U.S. oil companies with the Saudis from the very get-go, the implementation ill-conceived borders as well as er, rectifying(?) the last embers of influence from the Ottoman empire, and the hum-dinger of them all, the official blueprint and rubber stamp for an Israeli state in Palestine with the Balfour Declaration in 1917 Behind the Balfour Declaration: Britain's Great War Pledge To Lord Rothschild... let alone all the wars and double standards since. 

In our modern times I venture that behind the political scene, it's pretty much all about oil. And Israel. But that's getting too off topic. Anyway. Oil. Just because they don't buy it, doesn't mean they don't want to_ control_ it. As a side point, the big new U.S. consulate opened earlier this year down in Basrah, Iraq, after four decades; it's hardly part of an exit strategy from Iraq. Are they there to win hearts and minds with gushes of democracy? Its Basra. And the control of oil is what is ultimately driving foreign policy. All the rest is consequence from this main cause and effect.

As posted before:



> This Islamic emergence is growing, at speed, across the Arab and North African states because there is no general acceptance, naturally, to a quick and easy pop-up fix with democracy, let alone individual freedom(s).


I do believe, Deadguy, that you have it right. People don't know what democracy means. Literally.

So in summary to my two rants , it seems to me that at the highest echelons of Western power and the bastions of so-called truth and freedom, have been shafting everyone (especially politically) since they first came to the ME, so that people in the West, like myself, can have a good education, healthy and warm homes and far superior chance at having a better life. This, um, ideology... on my behalf, hasn't been applied on the other end of the spectrum for those in the ME though. Except, possibly, in Israel. The rest just got a local Big Brother and that was all fine. Until now. 

So why_ is_ everyone up in arms about Islam taking hold?

Again. Just my humble opinion. I am willing to learn or be educated otherwise.


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## hurghadapat

DeadGuy said:


> The _Invisible fingers_, along with the _West_ are still the most popular causes of each and every problem that occurs in here, and it will most probably be the case for a long time -Might change to something like the Infidels or something :lol:- but the concept will always be used, they need someone to blame.........
> 
> The elections' main problem is obvious, people simply don't know what the word _democracy_ means, people don't think there's anything wrong with anyone telling them to vote for the _Followers of Allah_ cause that's just a deep belief in people's heads already.......To be "reminded" of that isn't a big deal for most people in here, specially when those "reminders" are made in a perfectly planned sneaky way, with the help of few tons of "gifts" that's already paid for
> 
> The new boss won't be as the old one, it will be far worse cause religion will be stuck up everything's ar$e; Abu Ismael in his latest appearance on a talk show, "appealed" the government to_ start getting ready to enforce the Hijab in its official offices_ already! And the elections aren't even over yet!
> 
> The point where those who will be in charge use the very popular _if you don't do that then you'll be breaking Allah's rules_ is coming next I think, very soon, and they most likely won't even need to use it THAT often, cause almost no one will even oppose them cause I'm pretty sure everyone's convinced that they're "God's sent" already


So Deadguy can i ask......what exactly does democracy mean to you....not being rude or sarcastic would just like to hear your version of democracy.


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## DeadGuy

hubbly_bubbly said:


> But isn't there good reason for the blame?
> 
> The West has been more than meddling in the ME, in earnest, since the 1900's - not forgetting the British occupation of Egypt in 1882 for mainly political stability in its favour nor the wrestling for western control over the Suez Canal for some 70 years, again for its own opportunism. And you guys pretty much know what's been happening in Egypt since the 50's.
> 
> And it's not only these two vague examples, but in the broader area there's the formation of U.S. oil companies with the Saudis from the very get-go, the implementation ill-conceived borders as well as er, rectifying(?) the last embers of influence from the Ottoman empire, and the hum-dinger of them all, the official blueprint and rubber stamp for an Israeli state in Palestine with the Balfour Declaration in 1917 Behind the Balfour Declaration: Britain's Great War Pledge To Lord Rothschild... let alone all the wars and double standards since.
> 
> In our modern times I venture that behind the political scene, it's pretty much all about oil. And Israel. But that's getting too off topic. Anyway. Oil. Just because they don't buy it, doesn't mean they don't want to_ control_ it. As a side point, the big new U.S. consulate opened earlier this year down in Basrah, Iraq, after four decades; it's hardly part of an exit strategy from Iraq. Are they there to win hearts and minds with gushes of democracy? Its Basra. And the control of oil is what is ultimately driving foreign policy. All the rest is consequence from this main cause and effect.
> 
> As posted before:
> 
> 
> 
> I do believe, Deadguy, that you have it right. People don't know what democracy means. Literally.
> 
> So in summary to my two rants , it seems to me that at the highest echelons of Western power and the bastions of so-called truth and freedom, have been shafting everyone (especially politically) since they first came to the ME, so that people in the West, like myself, can have a good education, healthy and warm homes and far superior chance at having a better life. This, um, ideology... on my behalf, hasn't been applied on the other end of the spectrum for those in the ME though. Except, possibly, in Israel. The rest just got a local Big Brother and that was all fine. Until now.
> 
> So why_ is_ everyone up in arms about Islam taking hold?
> 
> Again. Just my humble opinion. I am willing to learn or be educated otherwise.


I didn't want to respond to your first post cause like you said, it would be all the way far off the thread's topic; but to be honest, I can't see why anyone would wanna put *ALL *the blame on the USA/UK/EU and the rest of the usual "it's their fault" list, is the "Western" policies 100% right? Absolutely not, are they the ones caused/causing ALL the problems that Arabs are blaming them for? Well the answer can't be yes, and it wouldn't be smart to do that........

But answering your question, _why is everyone up in arms about Islam taking hold?_ Who is it shoving Islam and the Islamic laws up everything's ar$e?! Who is it that wants the whole bloody world to dress/eat/speak/vote, Hell even want people to take a sh!t according to the Islamic laws! Is it the "West"?! Or the Muslims themselves?!


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## DeadGuy

hurghadapat said:


> So Deadguy can i ask......what exactly does democracy mean to you....not being rude or sarcastic would just like to hear your version of democracy.


I have no idea 

Seriously though, the best I can think of right now to define what the word means for me would be to live the way I want, and let people live the way THEY want; if someone's happy eating everything but pork, drinking everything but alcohol, letting their beard grow or to dress their sisters, wife/ves, kids anyway they want, then fine by me, but just like I'd respect their wishes to behave their own way, they should respect my wish to behave MY way; and if they can't respect me the way I am for whatever reason, then again, fine by me, but then they shouldn't even dare to ask me to respect them........


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## DeadGuy

On a funny note..........With apologies to all the Brits, specially ones from Bradford 



> I am truly perplexed that so many of my friends are against another mosque being built in Bradford.
> 
> I think it should be the goal of every Englishman to be tolerant.
> 
> Thus the Mosque should be allowed, in an effort to promote tolerance.
> That is why I also propose that two nightclubs be opened next door to the mosque, thereby promoting tolerance from within the mosque.
> 
> We could call one of the clubs, which would be gay, "The Turban Cowboy ", and the other a topless bar called "You Mecca Me Hot."
> 
> Next door should be a butcher shop that specializes in pork, and adjacent to that an open-pit barbeque pork restaurant, called "Iraq o' Ribs."
> 
> Across the street there could be a lingerie store called "Victoria Keeps Nothing Secret ", with sexy mannequins in the window modeling the goods.
> 
> Next door to the lingerie shop there would be room for an adult sex toy shop, "Koranal Knowledge ", its name in flashing neon lights, and on the other side a liquor store called "Morehammered."
> 
> All of this would encourage the Muslims to demonstrate the tolerance they demand of us, so the mosque problem would be solved.


Damn I'd NEVER mind a butcher shop in front of the local church in here as long as I'd be able to have a nice meal every now and then! And I should get a discount for being an infidel myself :lol:


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## MaidenScotland

DeadGuy said:


> On a funny note..........With apologies to all the Brits, specially ones from Bradford
> 
> 
> 
> Damn I'd NEVER mind a butcher shop in front of the local church in here as long as I'd be able to have a nice meal every now and then! And I should get a discount for being an infidel myself :lol:




Yes tolerance is a two way street...

There is a movie that you can watch on you tube.. 




I saw this years ago on television and fell about laughing..


----------



## DeadGuy

DeadGuy said:


> On a funny note..........With apologies to all the Brits, specially ones from Bradford
> 
> 
> 
> Damn I'd NEVER mind a butcher shop in front of the local church in here as long as I'd be able to have a nice meal every now and then! And I should get a discount for being an infidel myself :lol:


Damn I forgot! I should be grateful that there's a bloody church in the first place, shouldn't even think about a pork shop 

Silly me


----------



## hubbly_bubbly

DeadGuy said:


> But answering your question, _why is everyone up in arms about Islam taking hold?_ Who is it shoving Islam and the Islamic laws up everything's ar$e?! Who is it that wants the whole bloody world to dress/eat/speak/vote, Hell even want people to take a sh!t according to the Islamic laws! Is it the "West"?! Or the Muslims themselves?!


Lol. I once witnessed a scene at a shared coalition police and army training centre in southern Iraq, around mid 2007, whereby American soldiers had built a new toilet block for themselves, next to the old one for the Iraqis. Anyway, short of it was that because the friendly "infidels" peed standing up, therefore showing their privates to God, they were "punished" by having to use the old block (which was indisputably gut-wrenching, even on a good day) and instead, the new block was, er, handed over to the Iraqi troops. The american soldiers were also refused permission to use the new block.

Anyway. it was an interesting dynamic in US/Iraqi troop relations at the time, to say the least.

Moving on swiftly. It's all rather complex and none too easy to point directly to as there are still many, many chips to fall not only in Egypt, but across the ME. I do think Islam will continue to grow apace, coming from within the people, because at the end of the day, that is the one _philosophy_ that they do know, rightly or wrongly - rather than what they don't. In the meantime, it really just remains to be seen what will happen next.

I just hope you get to be you.


----------



## marenostrum

I am going to stick my head on the block here and say that we cannot be criticising the MB at this moment in time. Democracy does not happen overnight, we europeans have had to go through two world wars and 80 years before getting to the point where we are now with our democracies. And our systems are still far from perfect, we currently have two unelected "technocrat" governments in Europe and the German reich raising its head again.....so even we still have work to do....

Do you really expect Egyptians to sort out their political system in nine months when it has taken us decades? This is a long winder process that will not happen overnight, probably not even in my lifetime and I am 35.....

It is not the MB's fault if they are the only ones that will provide some food to the destitute or basic medical care in the mosques. Where the hell are the secularist rich egyptians in all this? Do they contribute? Have any of the other political parties done anything to boost their cause? How much has Sawiris done to help the destitute? I don't know but I know that the MB have done a bit.

OK it is a form of bribery but if you were in the average poor egyptian's position and you had the MB giving you food and the others gave you FALL who would you vote for / support?


----------



## hubbly_bubbly

MaidenScotland said:


> Yes tolerance is a two way street...




Indeed.


----------



## MaidenScotland

hubbly_bubbly said:


> Lol. I once witnessed a scene at a shared coalition police and army training centre in southern Iraq, around mid 2007, whereby American soldiers had built a new toilet block for themselves, next to the old one for the Iraqis. Anyway, short of it was that because the friendly "infidels" peed standing up, therefore showing their privates to God, they were "punished" by having to use the old block (which was indisputably gut-wrenching, even on a good day) and instead, the new block was, er, handed over to the Iraqi troops. The american soldiers were also refused permission to use the new block.
> 
> Anyway. it was an interesting dynamic in US/Iraqi troop relations at the time, to say the least.
> 
> Moving on swiftly. It's all rather complex and none too easy to point directly to as there are still many, many chips to fall not only in Egypt, but across the ME. I do think Islam will continue to grow apace, coming from within the people, because at the end of the day, that is the one _philosophy_ that they do know, rightly or wrongly - rather than what they don't. In the meantime, it really just remains to be seen what will happen next.
> 
> I just hope you get to be you.




Lol well I am surprised that God could see them as according to the Muslims I work with god does not go into the bathroom lol


----------



## expatagogo

DeadGuy said:


> I didn't want to respond to your first post cause like you said, it would be all the way far off the thread's topic; but to be honest, I can't see why anyone would wanna put *ALL *the blame on the USA/UK/EU and the rest of the usual "it's their fault" list, is the "Western" policies 100% right? Absolutely not, are they the ones caused/causing ALL the problems that Arabs are blaming them for? Well the answer can't be yes, and it wouldn't be smart to do that........
> 
> But answering your question, _why is everyone up in arms about Islam taking hold?_ Who is it shoving Islam and the Islamic laws up everything's ar$e?! Who is it that wants the whole bloody world to dress/eat/speak/vote, Hell even want people to take a sh!t according to the Islamic laws! Is it the "West"?! Or the Muslims themselves?!


This is why I say Egyptians have been had. The only real choices they were given were between the SCAF, Secularism, NDP, or Islam, so the Muslim majority voted for Islam. What else were they supposed to do?


----------



## hubbly_bubbly

expatagogo said:


> This is why I say Egyptians have been had. The only real choices they were given were between the SCAF, Secularism, NDP, or Islam, so the Muslim majority voted for Islam. What else were they supposed to do?



I would argue that that is what is happening right across the Middle East - because Islam has the only tangible network of communication; a philosophical, political and ideological movement amongst the citizens themselves - of any real conviction on a mass scale.

It is explained much better here.

Political Islam poised to dominate the new world bequeathed by Arab spring | World news | The Observer


----------



## expatlady

Yes, but how long will it last? Look at the Hamas in Gaza; very popular when out of power, much less now after they have been in power for a while. 
Let the MB rule for a while, and let us see how popular they will become when/if poverty remains. The important thing then is to have some system in place, which will assure a change when the people want change.


----------



## hubbly_bubbly

I agree, in theory. 

However, isn't much harder to argue/rebel/fight against a religious belief system than against civil rule? And I am not sure so sure about Hamas, Hezbollah and the like being less popular. In any event, Gaza is not your normal state. It's a massive gaol and any true revolt would/should be against the Israelis, than from within. The Israelis would agree with you though.  It would suit their purposes to no end.


----------



## hubbly_bubbly

And just to add. The political West is beginning to fear a powerful amalgamation of religion and state within the ME. Yet the ever growing Christian right and centre right seems oblivious to its own totalitarian indoctrination that it would ideally like everyone to kneel down to, IMHO.


----------



## expatlady

I suspect that in the end it is food on the table and a roof over you head which is the most important, at least for the poor.
"It´s the economy, stupid", is more true than ever. And yes: Hamas is less popular now, by all accounts. And no; it isn´t a "typical" case, but it is the one case where thee religious side won in a democratic election, and took power. (Typically, they have been prevented from doing so, even when they won elections, like in Ageria.)
(And I always found it absurd that some people in the West thought that the regimes in ME would become more friendly towards Israel with more democratic leadership. More democratic elected leaders would have to reflect the popular opinion, which certainly AFAIK does not favour Israel.)


----------



## hubbly_bubbly

Yes. I don't know of any political party in the ME that favours Israel. At best it is apathy so that business/political deals can be done. 

But to reiterate, Gaza (or even the West Bank) is nowhere near a typical state/electoral process. It's just not the same. How do you run an effective government by publicly kissing the arse of another one, that controls your every move anyway, no matter which party was elected. (Hmmm. Hasn't that been happening in principal anyway, with all the regimes and their dubious relationships with the Israel and the West over the last 50-70 years?)

_ If_... there was a two-state solution, and Hamas stayed in power, then that would be worth discussing in relation to the pros and cons of a democratically elected Islamic party.

Anyway. Back to Sharia Law. Could this too, be a part of the new Egypt? 

Saudis fear there will be ¿no more virgins¿ and people will turn gay if female drive ban is lifted | Mail Online


----------



## Cairo Cathy

DeadGuy said:


> The average Muslims were carrying Saudi flags down in Tahrir square and they were happy doing that.......


No those were the salafists I am talking about. Not the average Muslims. 



> The strange relationships Americans have with Al Saud family is a business relationship, the Saud family got the oil, the Americans got the money for it


exactly true and nothing else matters except the oil keeps flowing



> The Bush Bin Laden relationship, Bush trained the d!ckhead to do the dirty jobs for him


The relationship goes way back before GWB. For more recent news check this out.
Saudi Royal Ties to 9/11 Hijackers Via Florida Saudi Family? - WhoWhatWhy | WhoWhatWhy

then the LLoyds Group lawsuit mystery
Saudi 9/11 Alert: Here?s That Missing Lloyd?s Lawsuit - WhoWhatWhy | WhoWhatWhy

very interesting reading on that document




> And again, ties won't be cut, that's not smart for business relationships......


those SUV's have to get that petrol don't they no matter what



> And it won't be no cars or light ONLY in USA, but Arabs wouldn't be able to brag with their expensive Luxus, Hummer, Mercedes etc., or sitting behind their American made HP laptops watching porns and swearing at the American pigs


you make it sound like there is no Asia and rest of the world markets :mrgreen:



> Why don't the Americans bomb Tehran instead? Cause while the Arabs were laying in their beds watching porns and getting drunk, the Iranians were busy in their nuclear labs


 clever old Iranians then :wink:


----------



## Cairo Cathy

hubbly_bubbly said:


> Yes. I don't know of any political party in the ME that favours Israel. At best it is apathy so that business/political deals can be done.
> 
> But to reiterate, Gaza (or even the West Bank) is nowhere near a typical state/electoral process. It's just not the same. How do you run an effective government by publicly kissing the arse of another one, that controls your every move anyway, no matter which party was elected. (Hmmm. Hasn't that been happening in principal anyway, with all the regimes and their dubious relationships with the Israel and the West over the last 50-70 years?)
> 
> _ If_... there was a two-state solution, and Hamas stayed in power, then that would be worth discussing in relation to the pros and cons of a democratically elected Islamic party.
> 
> Anyway. Back to Sharia Law. Could this too, be a part of the new Egypt?
> 
> Saudis fear there will be ¿no more virgins¿ and people will turn gay if female drive ban is lifted | Mail Online


The Saudi wahabist ideology has only lasted this long because it required a deal with the Al Saud to allow them to retain their thrones in return for this fantical extremist ideology in the mosques.


----------



## expatagogo

hubbly_bubbly said:


> Anyway. Back to Sharia Law. Could this too, be a part of the new Egypt?
> 
> Saudis fear there will be ¿no more virgins¿ and people will turn gay if female drive ban is lifted | Mail Online


Have to wonder what _that_ driving exam is like, yes?


----------



## expatagogo

Cairo Cathy said:


> The Saudi wahabist ideology has only lasted this long because it required a deal with the Al Saud to allow them to retain their thrones in return for this fantical extremist ideology in the mosques.


Cathy, the Wahabis ... er ... Salafis (I guess that's the politically correct term these days) have been bellering HATE ISRAEL/HATE AMERICA/HATE WOMEN from Mosques and aplenty on television in Egypt for ages. I'd reckon there's probably a direct correlation between the volume and Egyptians getting "more religious" like it's been a contest.

I once read that people get the government they deserve. Not that I agree with it, but I do think it's a valid point for consideration within the parameters of this discussion.


----------



## Cairo Cathy

expatagogo said:


> Cathy, the Wahabis ... er ... Salafis (I guess that's the politically correct term these days) have been bellering HATE ISRAEL/HATE AMERICA/HATE WOMEN from Mosques and aplenty on television in Egypt for ages. I'd reckon there's probably a direct correlation between the volume and Egyptians getting "more religious" like it's been a contest.
> 
> I once read that people get the government they deserve. Not that I agree with it, but I do think it's a valid point for consideration within the parameters of this discussion.


I agree so it makes you wonder why all this funding from the Saudis and it's quick spread across North Africa since the Arab Spring yet the NATO and US had no problem supporting them and even making an ex AQ a commander in Libya.

If the USA has a war on terror then why is it supporting the spread of salafism and it's nest?


----------



## expatagogo

Cairo Cathy said:


> I agree so it makes you wonder why all this funding from the Saudis and it's quick spread across North Africa since the Arab Spring yet the NATO and US had no problem supporting them and even making an ex AQ a commander in Libya.
> 
> If the USA has a war on terror then why is it supporting the spread of salafism and it's nest?


Cathy, Americans didn't vote in the elections of any country that participated in the Arab Spring. The citizens of those countries did, and they voted for Islam.


----------



## Cairo Cathy

expatagogo said:


> Cathy, Americans didn't vote in the elections of any country that participated in the Arab Spring. The citizens of those countries did, and they voted for Islam.


I know they voted.
Poor ignorant peasants voted for salafists barely able to read and told to vote for the symbol on the ballot paper. Each candidate has a symbol. Did you know that? A tree or a wheel or a car etc.

It's the educated that are worried about the voters who have no education or can read.
They are less worrei\\ied about the MB than the salafists.

But the fact remains.

Why NATO and US are happy to have an ex AQ commander commanding Tripoli and why they ran so fast to Benghazi as it is a well known Salafist stronghold?
Why the rush to get Gaddaffi out and Salafists in?


----------



## expatagogo

Cairo Cathy said:


> I know they voted.
> Poor ignorant peasants voted for salafists barely able to read and told to vote for the symbol on the ballot paper. Each candidate has a symbol. Did you know that? A tree or a wheel or a car etc.
> 
> It's the educated that are worried about the voters who have no education or can read.
> They are less worrei\\ied about the MB than the salafists.
> 
> But the fact remains.
> 
> Why NATO and US are happy to have an ex AQ commander commanding Tripoli and why they ran so fast to Benghazi as it is a well known Salafist stronghold?
> Why the rush to get Gaddaffi out and Salafists in?


Or a sewing machine.

Where was the concern for the poor, particularly their level of literacy, before the revolution? Does giving people the ability to make an informed decision only count when the outcome effects others?

Cathy, can you please explain the difference between a MB and a Salafi? Is it appearance only - beard, etc.? Or is it measured by the amount of centimeters one has grown their zabiba?


----------



## Cairo Cathy

expatagogo said:


> Or a sewing machine.
> 
> Where was the concern for the poor, particularly their level of literacy, before the revolution? Does giving people the ability to make an informed decision only count when the outcome effects others?
> 
> Cathy, can you please explain the difference between a MB and a Salafi? Is it appearance only - beard, etc.? Or is it measured by the amount of centimeters one has grown their zabiba?


The MB supported the poor for decades and gave them medicine and food.
The Salafist burn sufi mosques and attack Sufis and Coptic Christians calling them infidels. While Al Azhar says the niqab is not islamic the salafist call for all women to be covered and not to leave the house.

If you want religious police instead of shurta amein beating you in the street vote salafist.

There is a big difference between them.


----------



## expatagogo

Cairo Cathy said:


> The MB supported the poor for decades and gave them medicine and food.
> The Salafist burn sufi mosques and attack Sufis and Coptic Christians calling them infidels. While Al Azhar says the niqab is not islamic the salafist call for all women to be covered and not to leave the house.
> 
> There is a big difference between them.


Ah so this is a Sufi/Shia problem?


----------



## Cairo Cathy

Salafist Attacks on Sufis may indicate Prolonged Sectarian Violence in Libya - Grendel Report

Salafist Attacks on Sufis may indicate Prolonged Sectarian Violence in Libya

The Jamestown Foundation: BRIEFS

SALAFIST ATTACKS ON SUFI SHRINES IN LIBYA MAY INDICATE PROLONGED SECTARIAN VIOLENCE

A sudden series of attacks on Sufi shrines and tombs in and around the Libyan capital of Tripoli by heavily armed men in uniform has shocked the large Sufi community in Libya and may indicate the development of a pattern of sectarian attacks similar to those against Sufi groups in Iraq, Pakistan, Somalia and elsewhere. Supporters in Tripoli welcomed the attacks, claiming the Sufis were using the shrines to practice “black magic” (AP, October 13).

In Tripoli, the attackers broke into the shrines of Abdul Rahman al-Masri and Salim Abu Sa’if, exhuming and taking away their remains while burning relics and other items found at the shrines. Similar attacks were reported elsewhere in Tripoli and in the nearby town of Janzour. Some of the attackers boasted of having come from Egypt for the purpose of destroying Sufi shrines (AP, October 13). Tripoli’s revolutionary military council is currently headed by Benghazi Salafist militia leader *Abd al-Hakim Belhadj*.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Bel Hadj is the famous AQ commander who was given control of the NTC rebels in Tripoli by NATO and NTC.


----------



## Cairo Cathy

expatagogo said:


> Ah so this is a Sufi/Shia problem?


It has nothing to do with Shia.

Salafist/Wahabi v non salafist which is everyone else on the planet.

The world is cleverly being tricked into thinking Shia is the problem.The reality is thought the Jews and Christians are living no problem in Iran. There are no churches or synagogues being demolished in Iran.

Mosques and churches are being destroyed though in Iraq and Bahrain and Israel etc. There are NO churches or bibles allowed in Wahabi Saudi.
The world needs to open it's eyes.


----------



## MaidenScotland

Cairo Cathy said:


> I know they voted.
> Poor ignorant peasants voted for salafists barely able to read and told to vote for the symbol on the ballot paper. Each candidate has a symbol. Did you know that? A tree or a wheel or a car etc.
> 
> It's the educated that are worried about the voters who have no education or can read.
> They are less worrei\\ied about the MB than the salafists.
> 
> But the fact remains.
> 
> Why NATO and US are happy to have an ex AQ commander commanding Tripoli and why they ran so fast to Benghazi as it is a well known Salafist stronghold?
> Why the rush to get Gaddaffi out and Salafists in?




Please keep the topic to what is happening in Egypt... :focus:


----------



## hubbly_bubbly

Cairo Cathy said:


> The Saudi wahabist ideology has only lasted this long because it required a deal with the Al Saud to allow them to retain their thrones in return for this fantical extremist ideology in the mosques.


I know. 

I have been trying to find an article on the deals done with the clerics in regards to Bahrain. It was millions and land and etc etc.

Can't find it though.


----------



## hubbly_bubbly

MaidenScotland said:


> Please keep the topic to what is happening in Egypt... :focus:


It is related, isn't it? :confused2: (What Cathy is saying. Not my post. )


----------



## MaidenScotland

hubbly_bubbly said:


> It is related, isn't it? :confused2: (What Cathy is saying. Not my post. )


Why NATO and US are happy to have an ex AQ commander commanding Tripoli and why they ran so fast to Benghazi as it is a well known Salafist stronghold?
Why the rush to get Gaddaffi out and Salafists in?


----------



## hubbly_bubbly

MaidenScotland said:


> Why NATO and US are happy to have an ex AQ commander commanding Tripoli and why they ran so fast to Benghazi as it is a well known Salafist stronghold?
> Why the rush to get Gaddaffi out and Salafists in?


Analysis: Salafis sense best is yet to come in Egypt vote | Reuters

That's the amazing thing about the ME. It's all interwoven. Try isolating political issues across Europe, for example.


----------



## MaidenScotland

hubbly_bubbly said:


> Analysis: Salafis sense best is yet to come in Egypt vote | Reuters
> 
> That's the amazing thing about the ME. It's all interwoven. Try isolating political issues across Europe, for example.




Regardless ... keep the page Egypt please..


----------



## aykalam

This, unfortunately, refers to Egypt

Salafi group reaffirms call to set Egypt?s Pharaonic relics in wax - Bikya Masr


----------



## Cairo Cathy

hubbly_bubbly said:


> It is related, isn't it? :confused2: (What Cathy is saying. Not my post. )


this is the problem when people don't see the whole picture in a debate and look at things in isolation

hubby bubbly you understand like I do it is all connected and all relevant

how can you talk only about Egypt and salafists without talking about Saudi???? how can you talk about an Arab Spring and it's effects if you only keep it to Egypt???

How can someone start a thread entitled 'Sharia Law' and then only talk of Egypt????

after all that is the thread title


----------



## MaidenScotland

Cairo Cathy said:


> this is the problem when people don't see the whole picture in a debate and look at things in isolation
> 
> hubby bubbly you understand like I do it is all connected and all relevant
> 
> how can you talk only about Egypt and salafists without talking about Saudi???? how can you talk about an Arab Spring and it's effects if you only keep it to Egypt???
> 
> How can someone start a thread entitled 'Sharia Law' and then only talk of Egypt????
> 
> after all that is the thread title




It is keeping within the guideline of the forum... that is why it is divided up into countries.

So once again lets keep to what is happening in 'Egypt.


----------



## expatagogo

Cairo Cathy said:


> It has nothing to do with Shia.
> Salafist/Wahabi v non salafist which is everyone else on the planet.


If Heaven is full of those bearded guys, I've changed my mind!


----------



## Cairo Cathy

expatagogo said:


> If Heaven is full of those bearded guys, I've changed my mind!


hell will be filled with them so dont worry


----------



## hubbly_bubbly

Keeping within confines of the guidelines, I offer a great article in further exploring the Salafi movement from:

Inside Egypt's Salafis - By Lauren Bohn | The Middle East Channel

With a paragraph like this, it's worth a read:

"Look, I'm calling for Salafis to get off their chairs and talk to those people who are scared of them, and for liberals to do the same. Stop isolating yourselves," Tolba says, before taking a call from a "not so funny" sheikh -- a gratuitous reminder the task won't be so easy. "This is democracy. This is the new Egypt."


----------



## RPC

Cairo Cathy said:


> I know they voted.
> Poor ignorant peasants voted for salafists barely able to read and told to vote for the symbol on the ballot paper. Each candidate has a symbol. Did you know that? A tree or a wheel or a car etc.
> 
> It's the educated that are worried about the voters who have no education or can read.
> They are less worrei\\ied about the MB than the salafists.
> 
> But the fact remains.
> 
> Why NATO and US are happy to have an ex AQ commander commanding Tripoli and why they ran so fast to Benghazi as it is a well known Salafist stronghold?
> Why the rush to get Gaddaffi out and Salafists in?


A clarification is needed:
1. the NATO was not in a rush to get "Gaddaffi out and Salafists in".
2. the "Libyans" were in a rush to get Gaddaffi out. 
3. what would happen after was "left to the Libyans" and i frankly can't believe NATO was cheering or pushing for Salafists to end up in power.
4. it was the NTC that has put the ex commander in power... not NATO.

How will it go forward:
A. there will be (hopefully) a truly democratic vote that will decide who the nation wants to be led by.
B. the vote will be won by the most organized groups that will be able to leverage on peoples ignorance, anger and frustrations (unfortunately a good part of the population and in democracy the "majority" wins), fulfilling their immediate need of "dignity-justice" (as defined by their understanding of such concepts often linked to religious factors). 
C. during next elections, (in democracy new elections happen regularly), people will have by then understood that other "primary needs" such as economic growth, better quality of life, better education, global integration vs isolation, have not been satisfied yet so will want to move towards a more open and modern government.
D. things have been static for such a long time that a transition to a democracy capable of embracing modern concepts will need "time" to mature. 
:bump2:


----------



## cairoblondie

Well out of an abundance of caution I decided I better start stocking-up on condoms and liquor lest these become impossible to procure at a future date. The people at On-The-Run seemed surprised when I bought their entire inventory, 34 boxes of condoms! 

Laden down with my two grocery sacks of booty I moved along to 'drinkies' and told them I need as much Heinekin as they can deliver ("Inaharda! Alatoul!!). The clerk seemed to catch sight of all the condoms, suddenly everyone was really helpful and even offered to drive me back to my flat! 

But seriously, some of the bearded men on the election posters remind me of Santa. If you see a headline in Ahram "Foreigner sits on Salifist's lap to ask for her Christmas wishes"... you'll know how today's plans went.


----------



## expatagogo

Cairo Cathy said:


> hell will be filled with them so dont worry


So, help me understand this.

Oppressing anyone non-Muslim was okay until it appeared some Muslims may add other Muslims to the list of oppressed?


----------



## marenostrum

cairoblondie said:


> Well out of an abundance of caution I decided I better start stocking-up on condoms and liquor lest these become impossible to procure at a future date. The people at On-The-Run seemed surprised when I bought their entire inventory, 34 boxes of condoms!


blimey, i guess that television doesn't get switched on much at night

On a more serious note, I will wait before judging the MB. I am hopeful they may follow the Turkish model rather than an Iranian one. Egypt could do with an Erdogan in charge.


----------



## Cairo Cathy

RPC


> A clarification is needed:
> 1. the NATO was not in a rush to get "Gaddaffi out and Salafists in".
> 2. the "Libyans" were in a rush to get Gaddaffi out.
> 3. what would happen after was "left to the Libyans" and i frankly can't believe NATO was cheering or pushing for Salafists to end up in power.
> 4. it was the NTC that has put the ex commander in power... not NATO.


1. How do you know? They knew Behghazi was a salafist stronghold. They knew Benghazi was isolated politically from the rest of the country and almost like an emirate. They knew East doesn't get along with West Libya. How do you know the NATO were not happy to have a Salafist Libya following the Saudi tradidtion in control?

2. Libyans?? Not all Libyans were in any rush at all to get Gaddaffi out. Didn't you see the struggle and do you think for one minute that the Banghazians would have won if it were not for NATO blitzkreiging the country and killing 30,000 opposition? Gaddaffi knew his country and people. They are tribal peoples and Gaddaffi managed like Saddam to keep them under control. There was no AQ in Libya he made sure of that as did Saddam. Now with the US and NATO both countries are a total mess and terrorists running wild thanks to the US and NATO. Do you know Libyans? I do.
Who exactly is going to rebuild Libya? I'm not talking about money. I am talking manpower because Libyans do not like to work. They preferred sitting at home having everyone else do the work while they got high on drugs. It was not Libyans who ran the country. It was Egyptians and Tunisians and Africans.

3. But yet that is what happened. Bad planning? stupidty? calculated? all three?

4. Libyan rebellion has radical Islamist fervor: *Benghazi* link to Islamic militancy:U.S. Military Document Reveal

Libyan rebellion has radical Islamist fervor: Benghazi link to Islamic militancy:U.S. Military Document Reveals | Asian Tribune


----------



## Cairo Cathy

Expatagogo



> So, help me understand this.
> 
> Oppressing anyone non-Muslim was okay until it appeared some Muslims may add other Muslims to the list of oppressed?


It's quite simple.
Hell will be filled with many people Muslim and Non Muslims.
We all in the end have to pay for our sins and the deeds we do.
It has nothing to do with religion.
It's simple right and wrong.


----------



## Eco-Mariner

Cairo Cathy said:


> It's quite simple.
> Hell will be filled with many people Muslim and Non Muslims.
> We all in the end have to pay for our sins and the deeds we do.
> It has nothing to do with religion.
> It's simple right and wrong.



Unless you are an Athiest, then you only have one shot of getting it right.....


----------



## Cairo Cathy

Is that true?

I thought athiests who dont believe in anything dont care about getting it right because there is no heaven so they can do as they please


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## MaidenScotland

Cairo Cathy said:


> Is that true?
> 
> I thought athiests who dont believe in anything dont care about getting it right because there is no heaven so they can do as they please




You don't have to be god fearing to do good, behave morally or have a conscience.


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## expatagogo

Eco-Mariner said:


> Unless you are an Athiest, then you only have one shot of getting it right.....


Muslims, Christians and Jews are the only topics for consideration. This is an Egypt discussion, so anyone not affiliated with one of the Big Three will not get a crack at it.:tongue1:


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## hubbly_bubbly

Cairo Cathy said:


> 1. How do you know? They knew Behghazi was a salafist stronghold. They knew Benghazi was isolated politically from the rest of the country and almost like an emirate. They knew East doesn't get along with West Libya. How do you know the NATO were not happy to have a Salafist Libya following the Saudi tradidtion in control?


My only thought to this is that maybe they didn't think. NATO just didn't have time to sit around pontificating and scratching their proverbial privates - like they did with Bosnia. They had to help the secure the oil (deals) first then let the politicians "see" how it played out politically. 

Which sort of brings us back to Egypt, in that Mubarak was gone before anyone could say boo-hoo with a wet handkerchief, no? And now the only organisation with any ground roots (and there's no time to allow for a greater field of play), are the MB and of course, the Salafists. Same time headache as Libya - but without the intervention.

And, expat', I thought anyone could have a crack at any one of the three greatest novels ever written, regardless of religious domination? By my reckoning, the ME, most notably Egypt, needs a few forward thinking atheists right now.


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## expatagogo

hubbly_bubbly said:


> And, expat', I thought anyone could have a crack at any one of the three greatest novels ever written, regardless of religious domination? By my reckoning, the ME, most notably Egypt, needs a few forward thinking atheists right now.


Book Number Three of the trilogy says it's the only one that matters, therefore there will be none of that non-believer stuff. 

Verily.


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## hhaddad

expatagogo said:


> Book Number Three of the trilogy says it's the only one that matters, therefore there will be none of that non-believer stuff.
> 
> Verily.


The biggest untruth I've seen is that the Egyptain constitution says that the law is based on the Sharia when in fact and confirmed by an Egyptian lawyer it's based on French law as decreed by Napolean Bonaparte and therefore has no religious basis but is laiic.
:confused2:


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## hhaddad

Cairo Cathy said:


> Is that true?
> 
> I thought athiests who dont believe in anything dont care about getting it right because there is no heaven so they can do as they please


Just shows us how much you know about atheists. Also I know plenty of muslims who do as they please and perform Haj every year to cleanse theirselves.


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## aykalam

hubbly_bubbly said:


> I thought anyone could have a crack at any one of the three greatest novels ever written, regardless of religious domination? By my reckoning, the ME, most notably Egypt, needs a few forward thinking atheists right now.


:clap2::clap2::clap2: 

Amen to that


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## Eco-Mariner

Ohh please.... You were doing so well Cathy.


Eco-Mariner.


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## aykalam

:focus:

Ahram Online:

"The Salafist Nour Party would enforce a ban on serving alcohol ‎to foreigner nationals and Egyptian citizens alike if it came to ‎power, party spokesman Nader Bakar told tourism-sector ‎workers in Aswan on Monday.‎
Speaking at a public rally in the Upper Egyptian city’s Midan El-‎Mahatta, Bakar clarified that the party would only allow tourists to ‎drink liquor they brought with them from abroad, and only in their ‎hotel rooms.‎

He added that the party did not plan to set any restrictions on ‎tourism related to Egyptian antiquities, such as the Great ‎Pyramids of Giza and ancient Egyptian temples.‎

Bakar went on to say that the Nour Party would establish a chain ‎of hotels that would function in compliance with Islamic Law, ‎while banning beach tourism, which, he said, “induces vice.”‎

On Saturday, Mohamed Morsi, president of the Muslim ‎Brotherhood’s Freedom and Justice Party (FJP), told Ahram that ‎his party, by contrast, did not plan on banning alcohol in hotels ‎and at tourist resorts or, for that matter, prevent Egyptians from ‎drinking liquor in their homes.‎

The Nour Party won 19 per cent of the vote in the first round of ‎Egypt's first post-Mubarak parliamentary polls late last month, ‎while the FJP secured 37 per cent.‎"


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## MaidenScotland

aykalam said:


> :focus:
> 
> Ahram Online:
> 
> "The Salafist Nour Party would enforce a ban on serving alcohol ‎to foreigner nationals and Egyptian citizens alike if it came to ‎power, party spokesman Nader Bakar told tourism-sector ‎workers in Aswan on Monday.‎
> Speaking at a public rally in the Upper Egyptian city’s Midan El-‎Mahatta, Bakar clarified that the party would only allow tourists to ‎drink liquor they brought with them from abroad, and only in their ‎hotel rooms.‎
> 
> He added that the party did not plan to set any restrictions on ‎tourism related to Egyptian antiquities, such as the Great ‎Pyramids of Giza and ancient Egyptian temples.‎
> 
> Bakar went on to say that the Nour Party would establish a chain ‎of hotels that would function in compliance with Islamic Law, ‎while banning beach tourism, which, he said, “induces vice.”‎
> 
> On Saturday, Mohamed Morsi, president of the Muslim ‎Brotherhood’s Freedom and Justice Party (FJP), told Ahram that ‎his party, by contrast, did not plan on banning alcohol in hotels ‎and at tourist resorts or, for that matter, prevent Egyptians from ‎drinking liquor in their homes.‎
> 
> The Nour Party won 19 per cent of the vote in the first round of ‎Egypt's first post-Mubarak parliamentary polls late last month, ‎while the FJP secured 37 per cent.‎"




If alcohol is to be banned why would they need to build hotels in compliance with Islamic Law? What is the difference form an Islamic hotel and a boozy hotel other than alcohol?

I cannot see them allowing foreigners to bring alcohol in to the country.. or if they do it wont be enough to last for your two week holiday (I dont drink so it doesn't affect me). 

I didn't know you could drink at the Pyramids or Egyptian temples.


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## aykalam

MaidenScotland said:


> If alcohol is to be banned why would they need to build hotels in compliance with Islamic Law? What is the difference form an Islamic hotel and a boozy hotel other than alcohol?
> 
> I cannot see them allowing foreigners to bring alcohol in to the country.. or if they do it wont be enough to last for your two week holiday (I dont drink so it doesn't affect me).
> 
> I didn't know you could drink at the Pyramids or Egyptian temples.


he didn't say they would "build" the hotels, just that they would "establish a chain" of hotels...hmmm maybe shutting down privately owned hotels for the state to take over? I don't know, but it sounds fishy no matter how you look at it. Anyhow, they can talk until the cows come home, they don't have the power to implement these policies (yet)


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## ArabianNights

MaidenScotland said:


> Yes tolerance is a two way street...
> 
> There is a movie that you can watch on you tube.. East is East - YouTube
> 
> I saw this years ago on television and fell about laughing..



Oh no!!! Dear God....nooooooo how embarrassing! What a blast from tha past, and how dare you for show something that depicts the typical dysfunctional situation of my family  and half my family are from Bradford too.... oh how familiar, now you've made me homesick!  :tongue1:

.... let me just crawl back into my blanket and hibernate for a few months


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## charleen

Cairo Cathy said:


> Expatagogo
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite simple.
> Hell will be filled with many people Muslim and Non Muslims.
> We all in the end have to pay for our sins and the deeds we do.
> It has nothing to do with religion.
> It's simple right and wrong.


Ummm if that's what you believe ok. Just remember there are others out there that DO NOT believe all of what you said.
It is not simple right and wrong.


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## expatagogo

charleen said:


> Ummm if that's what you believe ok. Just remember there are others out there that DO NOT believe all of what you said.
> It is not simple right and wrong.


Exactly.

The concept of "sin" (along with "Heaven", etc.) does not exist outside of the framework of religion.


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## MaidenScotland

Just seen ballot boxes being unloaded at the police station in Agouza... all newish looking boxes but they have been used as there are stickers and padlocks on them


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