# Questions on Obtaining Citizenship via Jure Sanguinis



## kjr123 (Oct 2, 2014)

Hi everyone!

I know that there are already a few posts on this forum about obtaining italian citizenship through 'jure/jue sanguinis', but I just had some basic questions that I couldn't find the answers to on here. I've been researching as much as I can on the web, but most of the time it's left me scratching my head and re-reading things over and over, trying to fully understand/translate them..

I'm looking to apply for citizenship through my mother's great grandfather, or my great-great grandfather. According to my family, he was born in Marsala, Sicily, in 1883 and emigrated over to New York in 1906. He married my great-great grandmother in 1911 in New York and my great grandfather was born in 1912. As far as I'm aware, my great-great grandfather didn't become completely naturalized as a U.S. citizen at all, and if he did, it wasn't until way after my great-grandfather and his siblings were born - either just before WWII, or right after. I know for a fact that his wife never naturalized, as she was put on a watch list during WWII. 

It gets a bit confusing in terms of my great-great grandfather's birth date, because although my family have confirmed that he was born in 1883, according to U.S. Census records (of which there are two separate ones for the same person - How confusing!), he was born in either 1883 or 1885..and to make matters even MORE confusing, Ellis Island's passengers' records indicate that he was 18 years old at his time of arrival in 1906..meaning that he would have been born in 1888! I'm worried that this is going to become a problem for me, as well as the fact that his surname was minorly misspelled in U.S. Census records after arriving here. Apart from that, in terms of my other family members, I think it should be somewhat smooth sailing in obtaining their birth/death/marriage/divorce certificates, since they would all be in NY state.

So, as for my questions..

1) If a name is misspelled on census records, will that be a problem? If so, how do I resolve that?
2) What's the easiest way of obtaining a birth certificate from Italy? I understand that to do so, I would have to contact a consulate or parish in the village/town/city where my ancestor originated from, but how is the best/most efficient/cost effective way of doing this?
3) What is the easiest way of finding out if my ancestor did ever at some point become naturalized?
4) If my great grandfather fought in WWII, would that pose a problem to obtaining citizenship through him?
5) I'm currently living in the UK, but don't hold citizenship here - Just in the U.S. If I wanted to, is it still possible for me to make my application in the U.S.? I'm thinking this in terms of whether or not my family would want to apply with me.
6) For the application, how many copies of each document are required? Do they expect certified copies in both Italian and English, or just Italian? 
7) Am I able to get a translation from an Italian native I know as opposed to sending my documents off somewhere, and if so, how does one go about certifying them? Can anyone certify them, or do they have to be certified by an Italian national?


Any help/info is very much greatly appreciated, and thank you in advance!

Also, just to verify, I am trying to do this application myself without hiring any lawyers, if possible. I know that it's a bit more difficult to complete this way and may take more time, but I figure that it might save me a few $'s as well as help me to learn more about my ancestry!


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

kjr123 said:


> ....Ellis Island's passengers' records indicate that he was 18 years old at his time of arrival in 1906..meaning that he would have been born in 1888!


Or in 1887.



> 1) If a name is misspelled on census records, will that be a problem?


No.



> 2) What's the easiest way of obtaining a birth certificate from Italy? I understand that to do so, I would have to contact a consulate or parish in the village/town/city where my ancestor originated from, but how is the best/most efficient/cost effective way of doing this?


If you know where he was born, then simply send a request by postal mail.



> 3) What is the easiest way of finding out if my ancestor did ever at some point become naturalized?


Start with a genealogical index search with USCIS.



> 4) If my great grandfather fought in WWII, would that pose a problem to obtaining citizenship through him?


No. (Why did you think it would?)



> 5) I'm currently living in the UK, but don't hold citizenship here - Just in the U.S. If I wanted to, is it still possible for me to make my application in the U.S.?


Only if you can demonstrate residence within a particular consular jurisdiction to the standards that particular Italian consulate requires.



> 6) For the application, how many copies of each document are required?


One per application appointment no matter how many individuals are applying together at that same appointment.



> Do they expect certified copies in both Italian and English, or just Italian?


I'm not sure what you mean here. (Are birth, marriage, divorce, and death certificates from New York available from New York City and/or New York State in any language other than English?)



> 7) Am I able to get a translation from an Italian native I know as opposed to sending my documents off somewhere, and if so, how does one go about certifying them? Can anyone certify them, or do they have to be certified by an Italian national?


Each Italian consulate can set its own translation requirements. As one example, Italian consulates in the United States do not require U.S. naturalization records to be translated all, but consulates outside the United States do.


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## kjr123 (Oct 2, 2014)

Thank you BBCWatcher!

In response to my great-grandfather serving in WWII, I read somewhere that stated that it might become a problem, because the U.S. fought against Italy. I know it sounds bogus, but I just wanted to double check.



BBCWatcher said:


> If you know where he was born, then simply send a request by postal mail.


Despite my family saying he was born in 1883, I'm a bit concerned as to the things I've found only stating that he was born in 1885/6/7..Will this be an issue in trying to request a birth certificate from where he was born? Or is it possible to give them a range of birth years to look for in finding the certificate?



BBCWatcher said:


> Start with a genealogical index search with USCIS.


My great-great grandfather's surname was spelt differently in a number of documents after arriving to New York. It's very slight, just a difference of two letters, but will this be a problem in making an index search with USCIS, since they only give an option for one surname to be put in the request? I ask because it does cost $20 per request..




BBCWatcher said:


> I'm not sure what you mean here. (Are birth, marriage, divorce, and death certificates from New York available from New York City and/or New York State in any language other than English?)


Sorry for this confusion! I meant in terms of sending the documents with my application - I've heard that I need to send all birth/death/marriage/divorce certificates and have them translated into Italian for my application. Do I need to certify the translated documents, as well as the originals (in English) from NY state, and send copies in both languages?



BBCWatcher said:


> Each Italian consulate can set its own translation requirements. As one example, Italian consulates in the United States do not require U.S. naturalization records to be translated all, but consulates outside the United States do.


Does that rule only apply to U.S. naturalization records, or any other documents?





Thanks a lot for your response!


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

kjr123 said:


> In response to my great-grandfather serving in WWII, I read somewhere that stated that it might become a problem, because the U.S. fought against Italy. I know it sounds bogus, but I just wanted to double check.


Where is "somewhere"?

The fact is that the only recognized/surviving Italian government joined the Allies in September, 1943. The Italian government is eternally grateful for the assistance U.S. and other Allied forces in liberating Italy from fascist and Nazi control. That includes the military service that many Italian-American soldiers and sailors provided.

Of course there's no problem whatsoever here.



> Despite my family saying he was born in 1883, I'm a bit concerned as to the things I've found only stating that he was born in 1885/6/7..Will this be an issue in trying to request a birth certificate from where he was born? Or is it possible to give them a range of birth years to look for in finding the certificate?


You can provide a range of birth years if that's the best information you have. Small communes should have no problem searching a range of birth years, and even the large ones will probably cope.

Note that the Mormons provide both online and microfilm copies of many Italian civil records. You should check with their Family History Centers to see if they have your ancestor's birth record. If they do, grab a copy and send along that copy with your postal request for an official copy.



> My great-great grandfather's surname was spelt differently in a number of documents after arriving to New York. It's very slight, just a difference of two letters, but will this be a problem in making an index search with USCIS, since they only give an option for one surname to be put in the request? I ask because it does cost $20 per request..


I would wait until you've located the birth record so you know exactly what to search for, but your information is simply incorrect. Check USCIS's instructions again. They explain how to search for aliases, including surname aliases, within a single index search request.



> I meant in terms of sending the documents with my application - I've heard that I need to send all birth/death/marriage/divorce certificates and have them translated into Italian for my application. Do I need to certify the translated documents, as well as the originals (in English) from NY state, and send copies in both languages?


I'm still confused, but let me try to explain how it would work for a hypothetical birth certificate for an ancestor born in Rochester, New York.

You would obtain an official, long-form copy of the birth certificate. Obviously birth certificates for individuals born in Rochester are in English. "Long-form" means the most complete record available from the issuer, containing all available data elements. You would also need to obtain an apostille for that document. For New York documents, New York's Secretary of State provides that service. And you need an Italian translation of that document since it's in English (but not of the apostille). The translation requirements are set by the particular consulate where the document will be presented. The consulate may require to use one of its listed translators, or it may not. The consulate may require the translator to provide some type of certification or stamp, or it may not. However, you're on safe ground using one of the consulate's listed (on their Web site) translators. Surely that translator knows what that particular Italian consulate's requirements are.


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## kjr123 (Oct 2, 2014)

Thanks BBCWatcher. Apologies for confusing you!

I'm still looking into sending a request for a birth certificate to Italy, but am finding it difficult because I can't seem to find anything online about my great-great grandfather being born in Marsala, where it states (on Ellis Islands' passenger list) he was born. I know for a fact that he was born in Sicily, and most likely the province of Trapani, where Marsala is. I wonder if that's where the USCIS report comes in handy, or?

For anyone who might've completed this process already, did you find it easier to complete the application on your own, or with the help of a solicitor/lawyer? If so, can anyone recommend one that doesn't cost an arm and a leg?

I'm finding some of the process a bit discouraging, but know that once I can find my great-great grandfather's birth certificate/naturalisation records, it'll pick everything up!

I was going to apply at the New York Consulate, but am finding now that it would be much more convenient and easier for me to apply at the Consulate in London, since this is where I live. The waiting times for booking appointments also appears to be much shorter. I've looked on their website and tried researching online, but am unable to find a list of their requirements for the application process. I know that it varies from consulate to consulate, so I wanted to double-check. I was wondering if anyone knew of where I might be able to find something that states what is required for them to process my application completely?


Thanks so much everyone for dealing with my rants!


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

kjr123 said:


> I wonder if that's where the USCIS report comes in handy, or?


Yes, U.S. naturalization records (if they exist) often accurately list the new citizen's place of birth. That's not the only way to research an ancestor's birthplace, but it's a common one. Other potential sources include Ancestry.com (which many public libraries offer at no charge), the Mormons' Family History Centers' copies of Italian civil records, military records, Social Security records, Ellis Island arrival records, church records, Census records (including the New York State Census, if applicable), newspaper archives, and gravestone indexes, as examples.



> If so, can anyone recommend one that doesn't cost an arm and a leg?


With the possible exception of a highly motivated and reasonably talented family member or friend, anybody cheap simply won't be good (and could be even worse), and anybody expensive still might not be good. As in most of life, you get what you pay for, sometimes less.



> I'm finding some of the process a bit discouraging, but know that once I can find my great-great grandfather's birth certificate/naturalisation records, it'll pick everything up!


Correct. Think of it like a scavenger hunt, treasure hunt, or puzzle -- one that could run for a couple years. It's fundamentally the same exercise as genealogical research to create and fill in a family tree.



> I've looked on their website and tried researching online, but am unable to find a list of their requirements for the application process. I know that it varies from consulate to consulate, so I wanted to double-check. I was wondering if anyone knew of where I might be able to find something that states what is required for them to process my application completely?


I think you just missed it. Go to the Italian consulate's (London's) Web page then click on the following links (with either Italian or English selected -- in Italian the links will obviously be in Italian) in this order:

Consular Services
For Italian nationals
Citizenship
(scroll down)
1. By Birth
Citizenship By Birth for Non British Citizens

I'm assuming you are not a citizen of the U.K. If you are, select the other link at the end.


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