# Child support issue



## Donford (Mar 22, 2016)

Hi,

Need some help.
I need to engage with the "Bezirkamt" in Berlin but want to have my facts and rights straight before I do so.

I'm from Africa and currently living in Africa, sort of temporary, but am still registered to live with my ex-girlfriend in Berlin.

She decided not to be with me anymore in October last year. I accepted that. We have a 12-year old son. I lived with her for some years and Germany and she lived for me for some years in Africa.

I seldom gave her money for child support, however I bought lots of items the child needed, paid for their flight tickets to visit, etc. I was also unemployed for long periods at a time.

In November last year I transferred a large amount to the child's German bank account and indicated that it may be used for support. I made this indication to both the child and the mother via Whatsapp. This is verifyable.

However, since the mother is poorly organised, she did not notice/recognise/use this amount and proceeded to instigate child support claim against me in December. 

Now the "amt" has started sending me letters to my address in Africa, claiming I must pay them the amount of "Vorschuss" they pay to her from December until March when the child turns 12. I agreed with the mother that I'll pay her regularly directly from now. From child age 12 apparently she must put in a new application for the child support, which we agreed she won't do.

Questions:
1) The "Vorschuss" they gave her is far less than the amount from Dec 2015 to March 2016 she got from them. Is this because of the Kindergeld she already gets?
2) I want that the amount that I paid in November as support, be recognised. And subtracted from what I owe them. Would they have not wanted a declaration from her in December, when she applied, that I made no support? Which I did. Can I point that out in a letter to them or must I still go to court? Did she make a false declaration? Does the German system have a way of preventing mothers who get financial support from the father, claiming from the Amt and thus getting DOUBLE support money?
3) Even when I pay her directly support from now on, will the "Amt" still want monthly support paid from me to them (the Amt)? I cannot pay both her and the "Amt" the amount that I'm supposed to pay, double.

I am fine with transferring support money but I want the amount I paid in November taken into account (they want all sorts of documents from me like income I earned and stuff) and I want to pay her directly as arranged with her, instead of into the Amt's bank.

Kindly advise.
Thanks!


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

I think this is far too specific a question for this forum. You probably need to get in touch with a lawyer in Berlin. 

Are you sure that your living "sort of temporary" in Africa isn't somehow jeopardizing your ability to return to Germany? Being registered at your ex-girlfriend's address isn't going to preserve a residence permit if you've left the country for too long.


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## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

Donford said:


> Hi,
> 
> Need some help.
> I need to engage with the "Bezirkamt" in Berlin but want to have my facts and rights straight before I do so.
> ...


I am not a lawyer and you might need one. A letter with supporting evidence like bank statements showing the transfer and print outs of the messages to the mother might or might not be enough.

When a parent applies for benefits (most probably ALG II), as a single parent, the Jobcentre then sends her to the Jugendamt to apply for Unterhaltsvorschuss.

This is a certain amount which the other parent would be obliged to pay but for some reason is unable to = parent is unemployed, has simply vanished, etc.

The Jobcentre will not process her application if she does not apply for the Vorschuss, because the Jobcentre has to pay less benefits if she receives the Vorschuss. The money is still coming from public funds but it's a different pot it's coming from and all means to get income have to be exhausted before applying for social security.

Paying Unterhalt regularly and paying back the money the Bezirksamt has paid to the mother in your stead are two different things.

Whether you pay child support directly to the mother or to the Bezirksamt depends on what kind of stipulations are put on the mother's benefits.

I think you'll need to have a legal advisor who can view all relevant documents assess the situation.

BTW, leaving Germany without unregistering is not a good idea. How are you health insured in Germany while you live in Africa 'temporarily'?


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## Donford (Mar 22, 2016)

I return to Germany every 6 months as legally provisioned for by my Aufenthaltserlaubnis.
I would have worked and lived there but was unable to find work and thus have to work in Africa. I am continually trying to find work in Germany and use the visit every 6 months to not only visit my son and his mother but also interviews etc.

Contrary to popular assumptions my relationship with my son's mother is actually quite amicable. She is unfortunately poor with organisation and communication. I have put forth my problem to her and she herself doesn't know what to do or what to make of it, nor have the time to deal with it.

I cannot afford an attorney in Germany or go there to sort it out for that matter.
I want to just write in return with letters to the "Amt" with my case and hope they can take the amount I paid already, into account, but for that I need to be sure of my facts and rights, and how it works, and therefor have posted the 3 questions in my original post to this forum for assistance / advise. References to the actual German Laws, by paragraph notation, would also be useful.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

Donford said:


> ...and therefor have posted the 3 questions in my original post to this forum for assistance / advise. References to the actual German Laws, by paragraph notation, would also be useful.


At this point the "free advice is worth what you paid for it" line is probably appropriate. You may or may not get a satisfactory answer from internet forums.

You could phone or e-mail the appropriate Amt and try to sort it out. Or deal with it next time you're in Germany, assuming that nobody's going to starve in the meantime.


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## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

Questions:
1) The "Vorschuss" they gave her is far less than the amount from Dec 2015 to March 2016 she got from them. Is this because of the Kindergeld she already gets?

*The Vorschuss is a standard amount and has nothing to do with Kindergeld. Both Vorschuss/child support and Kindergeld get subtracted from the amount she receives in ALG II*


2) I want that the amount that I paid in November as support, be recognised. And subtracted from what I owe them. Would they have not wanted a declaration from her in December, when she applied, that I made no support? Which I did. Can I point that out in a letter to them or must I still go to court? Did she make a false declaration? Does the German system have a way of preventing mothers who get financial support from the father, claiming from the Amt and thus getting DOUBLE support money?

*She most probably declared that she does no longer live with you, that she is not planning to live with you again and that she does not receive any money from you. Any money she gets from you should have been/should be declared to the Jobcentre and will be deducted from the amount she receives in benefits. Failing to do so results in over payments and will have to be paid back to the Jobcentre. She might not have recognised the money you gave her as child support (as you said she's not organised) but might have declared the money as savings. In any case she should have shown any account statements that she has control over when applying for benefits.*

3) Even when I pay her directly support from now on, will the "Amt" still want monthly support paid from me to them (the Amt)? I cannot pay both her and the "Amt" the amount that I'm supposed to pay, double.

*Somebody will have to pay back the Vorschuss. As I said, future payments depend on what the Amt says they will accept. For instance, there are people who get money for rent into their account but there are also people who get the rent paid directly to the landlord because they fail to be able to organise regular payment on their own.


It could be a good idea to call the Amt, explain what happened and ask them what they need - letter, proof of paying child support, whatsapp printouts, etc. Since you are still on good terms with the mother of your child, you will want to sort this out ASAP, together with her - you could screw each other over if this goes on too long.

For law references you will need a lawyer. Or a law forum?*


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## Donford (Mar 22, 2016)

ALKB said:


> Questions:
> 1) The "Vorschuss" they gave her is far less than the amount from Dec 2015 to March 2016 she got from them. Is this because of the Kindergeld she already gets?
> 
> *The Vorschuss is a standard amount and has nothing to do with Kindergeld. Both Vorschuss/child support and Kindergeld get subtracted from the amount she receives in ALG II*
> ...


Good advice, thanks very much.
I read that they subtract 50% of the Kindergeld she gets from the Vorschuss she gets - I actually calculated it, the amount they want from me minus 50% of her Kindergeld is the amount that they paid out to her. Just wanted this confirmed.
AFAIK she did not go to the Jobcenter but directly to the Jugendamt, for the application. I do not know if she had to declare that she did or does not get any support from me, but if she did, that was false.
I will get in touch with the Amt via mails.
Law references would have been nice to have, I could include it in my letters to the Amt.


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