# Bundles for Fiance Visa Question?



## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

Hello everyone,

I was just wondering, we have put two bundles together for the Fiance Visa. One bundle we have the originals and the other the photocopies. We have numbered the pages on the both bundles. We were worried that we shouldn't have put the numbers on the originals and the ECO could reject the originals as we have written numbers on them?


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## WestCoastCanadianGirl (Mar 17, 2012)

I think that it would have been o.k. to a) place each stack of paper in exactly the same order and b) written "Copy" on the corner of each page that is a copy.

I am in the late stages of getting my application together (just need Ed's papers from the UK) and will probably do something like what Lauren 999 did, including a little bit of a summary for each bit of supporting evidence.

I figure that the ECO is smart enough to figure out that having one packet stacked on the other and all of the second packet stamped "Copy" (A_i_S & 2far... my "Copy" stamp is ready and waiting to be called to duty!) that one is indeed a copy of the other and that we would like to have the originals returned to us (wherever possible).


One question though... if I send my old (expired) passport in, should I provide a copy of the bio page and all of the stamps (there are about a half dozen stamps scattered over a number of pages and words can't describe how OCD/irritated I am that they're not in sequential order... LOL )... if I send a copy of the bio page and a copy of all of the immigration stamps, will they return my old passport to me or should I just skip sending a copy and just hope that they return the old p'port to me?


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

Hiya NewLight, glad to hear you're on your way with the app. Re your copies-you need to put the copy immediately behind the original. For example, copy of bank statement for April should be marked 'COPY' and placed immediately behind the original of the bank statement for April.

One bundle, copies immediately behind the original that it is the copy of.

LOL @ WCCG! And yes re copies of the expired passport bio pages. I don't know that you need to send copies of the stamps, but hey, more is better! They will return your expired passport.


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## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

Thanks for that. I appreciate it. I didnt know. I thought they had to be two separate bundles? As we have put two separate bundles together, one bundle which is orginals and the other bundle copies. We have put them all in order and numbered both the originals and the copies. So we have written on the numbers on the actual sheets of paper. 
Do you think that would void the originals that we have written the numbers on the originals? 

I will now change it and put them how you have said, rather than two separate bundles.


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

newlight1 said:


> Thanks for that. I appreciate it. I didnt know. I thought they had to be two separate bundles? As we have put two separate bundles together, one bundle which is orginals and the other bundle copies. We have put them all in order and numbered both the originals and the copies. So we have written on the numbers on the actual sheets of paper.
> Do you think that would void the originals that we have written the numbers on the originals?
> 
> I will now change it and put them how you have said, rather than two separate bundles.


Numbering was unneccesary but probably OK. The really important thing is to be sure that each original is followed immediately by its copy, and that the copy is marked 'COPY'. That's partly so they don't keep your originals, btw.

Can I make another suggestion? Make an exact duplicate bundle of your application bundle. The duplicate bundle is for you to keep-don't send it to the UKBA.


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## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

AnAmericanInScotland said:


> Numbering was unneccesary but probably OK. The really important thing is to be sure that each original is followed immediately by its copy, and that the copy is marked 'COPY'. That's partly so they don't keep your originals, btw.
> 
> Can I make another suggestion? Make an exact duplicate bundle of your application bundle. The duplicate bundle is for you to keep-don't send it to the UKBA.


Yes thats an excellent idea to make a copy of the bundle for ourselves too!! A very good idea!! Although we have copied all of the bundle via scanning it and then burning it onto a disk rather than paper form. Do you think thats ok?

I am not being pessimistic but think we need to know what we need to do if for some reason the Fiance visa is rejected? What is the best thing to do? Do you have a certain time frame in which to do something? I have heard you can ask for an admin review but that is different to an appeal? Would we need legal assistance with an Admin review etc? Have spent so much on legal assistance already and the cost of the visa etc is there any kind of place I can get help with any appeal etc for free of charge?


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

newlight1 said:


> Yes thats an excellent idea to make a copy of the bundle for ourselves too!! A very good idea!! Although we have copied all of the bundle via scanning it and then burning it onto a disk rather than paper form. Do you think thats ok?
> 
> I am not being pessimistic but think we need to know what we need to do if for some reason the Fiance visa is rejected? What is the best thing to do? Do you have a certain time frame in which to do something? I have heard you can ask for an admin review but that is different to an appeal? Would we need legal assistance with an Admin review etc? Have spent so much on legal assistance already and the cost of the visa etc is there any kind of place I can get help with any appeal etc for free of charge?


As long as you understand the disk is for you and not to send to the UKBA (they want hard copy on paper only), that's a good idea. I think I'll scan and burn mine tonight!

As for what to do if the application is denied, I don't know what to tell you. Any case for an appeal would depend on the reason why it was denied; any chance of a request for review would be the same-the reason the application was denied. 

You write that you've spent money on legal advice (OISC authorised, right?)-is the advisor going to sign off on the application-did you have a contract with the advisor, and if yes, did it include requests for reviews and/or appeals as part of the obligation on the part of the advisor? 

I don't know very much at all about appeals and reviews, only that the letter of denial will have information as to why the denial was issued, and what your timeframe is for an appeal to be lodged. 

Hopefully that won't be an issue. Again, you write that you have sought legal advice-what does the advisor think of your chances?

ETA: Believe me I understand the concern that your application might be denied, first of all I think we have all been worried, and second of all because the UKBA is under so much pressure to cut down immigration that we are all worried about that as well! Try to stay calm, and focussed on putting together a substantive app and supporting documents along with a clear, concise intro letter from each of you detailing how you met and why you want to marry and live the rest of your lives in the UK as a married couple who won't become a burden on the State.


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## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

As long as you understand the disk is for you and not to send to the UKBA 

I do 



> As for what to do if the application is denied, I don't know what to tell you. Any case for an appeal would depend on the reason why it was denied; any chance of a request for review would be the same-the reason the application was denied.


I have to say I am very confused as some people say you can ask for an Admin review of a refused fiance/spouse visa and some people say you can not. I just want to have a good understanding what I would need to do in the case of a denial rather than panicking trying to find out information on the spot. 



> You write that you've spent money on legal advice (OISC authorised, right?)-is the advisor going to sign off on the application-did you have a contract with the advisor, and if yes,


Yes



> did it include requests for reviews and/or appeals as part of the obligation on the part of the advisor?


It just explained our situation and what she was going to do for us and how she was going to prepare it etc. I dont remember reading anything about a request for a review/appeal etc?



> Hopefully that won't be an issue. Again, you write that you have sought legal advice-what does the advisor think of your chances?


She said you meet all of the requirements so it would be very difficult for the ECO to reject it.


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## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

We have also been told it is possible she will have an interview!! Now what does she need to be aware of in this interview? What sort of questions could be asked?


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

Check your contract line by line with a magnifying glass, NL1, there should be something in there about appeals and reviews, and if your immigration advisor is obligated to prepare that for you. I think it usually does when the advisor is going to sign-off as yours is going to do on yours. If there is a denial, the immigration advisor has to defend his/her sign-off from what I've read about immigration advisors. 

Also, the advisor should be answering your questions about the interview for your fiancee (usually to be sure she really knows you, and knows details about you, that you two have a real relationship), and other questions like the difference between an admin review and an appeal-I think an admin review is done by the Entry Clearance Manager, but I am not positive.

So when your advisor (hey! You're paying her, she should earn that money, and answering your questions is part of earning the fee!) answers, would you mind sharing the answers 

Very good news to hear that she feels you have a good application and meet the requirements.


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## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

Thanks for that.

Ohh I shall check the letter and see what it says. SO it should say something like if application is rejected I shall lodge an appeal on my clients behalf. Or something like that? 
Do you mean my Lawyer is probably obligated to prepare an appeal for me?


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

newlight1 said:


> Thanks for that.
> 
> Ohh I shall check the letter and see what it says. SO it should say something like if application is rejected I shall lodge an appeal on my clients behalf. Or something like that?
> Do you mean my Lawyer is probably obligated to prepare an appeal for me?


What your lawyer is obligated to will be set out in the contract. From what I've read on the OISC site, if an immigration advisor signs off on an application, he/she is usually further obligated to handle any requests for review, or outright appeals-but I think too that it should be spelt out in the contract.

And yes, the wording would be along those lines in the contract.


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## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

OK I have looked at what you said and I found this on my contracted, I choose the Fiance Visa package-

TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF OUR SERVICE

What is included in the package you have choose-

IAC Appeal This package covers all work in relation to an Immigration and Asylum Chamber Appeal, including lodging an appeal to the entry clearance officer, British High Commission or Home office, making additional written or verbal representations where appropriate, taking client statements and the preparation of documents for the court, attendance at the hearing, and advice on the immigration judges decision. 

Merits Test and Draft Review Appeal: This package overs work involved in assessing the merits of a further appeal following a negative decision after the IAC hearing. Where a case is found t have merit, an application for appeal to the upper tribunal will be drafted and submitted to the IAC. Work including advising on the outcome of the application (ie whether permission has been granted or not) 

Preparation for onward appeal hearing: This package covers work to be undertaken when you have been granted leave to appeal, including the preparation and submitting of documents to the court, attendance at the hearing and advice on the outcome. 

Adjourned hearing: Where an appeal hearing is adjourned back to a full hearing before the IAC the package includes the preparation and submission of documents for the court, attendance at the hearing and advice on the final determination. 

OTHER COSTS

Expenses not covered by the fixed fee include the following

Application fees payable to the home office or British high commission or Embassy abroad..

Disbursement costs payable to external suppliers incurred in the course of preparing your case eg fees for interpreters, medical or other reports in support of your case

our staffs travel cost to AIT appeal hearings where the hearing center is outside out usual catchment area, and the courts have refused to transfer the hearing to a local court. Where out staff do have travel outside our usual area, costs will be charged based on the cheapest possible route by public transport. 

We will ask for your approval before confirming any additional costs t be added to the case. We will need all payments for disbursements before the work is started.


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## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

It also says that



> "please remember if anyone contacts you on behalf of the border agency, the entry clearance officer, or the immigration judge, you should not discuss the details of your case, but should refer them to us. You must also tell us immediately.


Does that mean that even if the border agency etc contact us directly we need to inform our Lawyer? or only someone saying they are contacting us on BEHALF of the entry clearance officer etc?


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

newlight1 said:


> It also says that
> 
> 
> 
> Does that mean that even if the border agency etc contact us directly we need to inform our Lawyer? or only someone saying they are contacting us on BEHALF of the entry clearance officer etc?


The way that's written isn't clear to me either-I think the best thing would be to ask your immigration advisor to explain that, because if someone from the UKBA contacts you about the application you would ordinarily want to answer any questions they might have so you don't hold up a determination.

However, because your application is going to have an immigration advisor sign off, it would seem more likely the UKBA would contact the immigration advisor directly. So I really think the best thing is to ask your advisor to clarify that point for you.

About the contract, WOWSA, that's a good contract! The firm will handle any appeals, etc. You got a very good package. I suspect the cost was eye-watering (no need to say as that is a personal matter), but well worth it as you've got a good contract there!


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## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

Thank you!!

Sorry I am being a bit all over the place, just my Fiance has her appointment tomorrow and everythings been manic.

Does anyone know if there is any kind of fast track service available for the visa? Shes applying in Albania.


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## Crawford (Jan 23, 2011)

newlight1 said:


> Thank you!!
> 
> Sorry I am being a bit all over the place, just my Fiance has her appointment tomorrow and everythings been manic.
> 
> Does anyone know if there is any kind of fast track service available for the visa? Shes applying in Albania.


You've met then since she and her sister had their visitor's visas refused and you are disabled so you cannot travel (as per your notes in February) ??

Just curious.


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## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

Thanks for all your replies. Very helpful.


When my Fiance handed in her documents today they only kept the originals and said that she had to submit the copies bundle when the visa processing is over so that they can keep the copies and give her back the originals. Is this normal?


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

newlight1 said:


> Thanks for all your replies. Very helpful.
> 
> 
> When my Fiance handed in her documents today they only kept the originals and said that she had to submit the copies bundle when the visa processing is over so that they can keep the copies and give her back the originals. Is this normal?


She's applying in Albania, maybe do things differently there?

How did it go for her, did she say anything else about the process there? Did they give her a timeline as to when they thought she would hear something?


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## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

> She's applying in Albania, maybe do things differently there?


Yes could be. Good thing we numbered the orginals as the letter from the lawyer references page numbers which were numbered in the copies bundle. 



> How did it go for her, did she say anything else about the process there? Did they give her a timeline as to when they thought she would hear something?


They just said that she should have an answer within 3 months. So guess its a waiting game now. Just thought it was strange they only want the originals and not the copied bundle. She said it went well, just told her everything we pretty much already knew.


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

newlight1 said:


> Yes could be. Good thing we numbered the orginals as the letter from the lawyer references page numbers which were numbered in the copies bundle.
> 
> 
> 
> They just said that she should have an answer within 3 months. So guess its a waiting game now. Just thought it was strange they only want the originals and not the copied bundle. She said it went well, just told her everything we pretty much already knew.


(Forehead smack!) That's right, you have a contract with an immigration advisor, I forgot about that, I'm sorry! Well, it looks as though the lawyer has been worth it so far because you write she had been well prepared as to what to expect. That's great!

Er, now you wait, yes. Looooooooooooong wait, it can make you crazy. Try to stay busy, and don't forget to post in the visa timeline thread. 

Best of luck to your and your fiancee, the two of you have been through quite a lot. I hope things go quickly and well for you both


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## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

Ohh yes I will have to check out the time line 

Thanks very much for your support. Will keep you updated.


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## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

> About the contract, WOWSA, that's a good contract! The firm will handle any appeals, etc.


Just found out that the fee was only for the application up to the submission of the application for entry clearance. They have additional fees for appeals and for attendance at court.

They also said full appeal package is £1200. However they split that in two as they said there are often times when the Entry Clearance Manager will decide to overturn the original refusal when he sees the appeal grounds and any additional documents. So the fee is split so that if the matter does not progress to a hearing I do not have to pay for a hearing.

The fees are £350 for submission of the appeal and then the balance will become due if the matter is listed for an appeal.

So Im still trying to understand that. Does that make sense to you? 

So really dont want to be spending even more money if we have to appeal, trying to think of other ways around that. Maybe the Citizens Advice Beuro could help with what we do next IF she doesnt get the visa.


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

newlight1 said:


> Just found out that the fee was only for the application up to the submission of the application for entry clearance. They have additional fees for appeals and for attendance at court.
> 
> They also said full appeal package is £1200. However they split that in two as they said there are often times when the Entry Clearance Manager will decide to overturn the original refusal when he sees the appeal grounds and any additional documents. So the fee is split so that if the matter does not progress to a hearing I do not have to pay for a hearing.
> 
> ...


It only makes sense to me if you have only paid so far for the application, and if the contract you signed with them states that you have more fees to pay for the appeals if needed. 

However, I'm not sure because the details in the contract you posted seem to me to be saying that the fee you paid when you signed the contract included any appeals if needed. 

Hopefully you won't need any appeals!


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## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

Yes I thought so too but I just noticed that it also says on the contract that the that the fee I have paid was only for the work on the application. 

I emailed the lawyer and she said that "the client care letter that I sent indicated that the fee you have paid was only for the work on the application"

So guess it doesn't include any appeals etc. Just hope she doesn't have to appeal at all.


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## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

*Anyone had a Fiance Visa Interview? Possible questions?*

Just wondering if anyone knew of a list of Fiance Visa questions or if anyone has had a Fiance Visa interview before that can shed some light on what to expect and what questions they got asked?

My Fiance has submitted a FIance Visa application and has not been asked to goto an interview but she maybe and wanted to find out about the process etc ahead of time?

Thanks in Advance


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## WestCoastCanadianGirl (Mar 17, 2012)

newlight1 said:


> Just wondering if anyone knew of a list of Fiance Visa questions or if anyone has had a Fiance Visa interview before that can shed some light on what to expect and what questions they got asked?
> 
> My Fiance has submitted a FIance Visa application and has not been asked to goto an interview but she maybe and wanted to find out about the process etc ahead of time?
> 
> Thanks in Advance


It's my understanding (from arguing with someone on this board a few weeks ago) that the UKBA don't generally call people in for interview unless they think that something is a little fishy with the application and they need/want further clarification on the information that has been supplied.

In the brief-ish time that I've been here, I've not heard of any cases of people being called in for interview, especially on a fiancé(e) visa. This does not mean that it doesn't happen, but if your Fiancée's application is straight forward and everything is in order, it's not likely that she'll be asked to appear before the ECO for questioning.


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

newlight1 said:


> Just wondering if anyone knew of a list of Fiance Visa questions or if anyone has had a Fiance Visa interview before that can shed some light on what to expect and what questions they got asked?
> 
> My Fiance has submitted a FIance Visa application and has not been asked to goto an interview but she maybe and wanted to find out about the process etc ahead of time?
> 
> Thanks in Advance


I would assume they would ask about the relationship-where did you meet, what is his birthday-favourite foods and colours, what schools has he attended, things that would indicate the two of you have spent time together.

I understand your concerns because Albania is one of the countries with 'sham marriage' applications (reading stats on UKBA and immigration sites like MigrationWatch, etc), Pakistan is the country with the highest visa fraud attempts in both marriage and student apps-the UKBA is now doing interviews face-to-face (f2f) with student visa applicants and it's reasonable to think other countries might go to f2f interviews as well.

Also, the UKBA has just (yesterday) published the guidance for determining 'genuine and subsisting relationships' (look for the pdf link on the right hand side of the page)

UK Border Agency | Family migration changes announced - updated

However! Try not to worry! You two have a real relationship-if she is interviewed (which I doubt, budgets are tight and if they interview anyone it will be the apps that look sketchy, for example the applicant only met the sponsor last month-not something you have to worry about), she'll be able to pass through it nicely. 

Will she be nervous? Of course. But IF she is interviewed, she'll be interviewed by a UKBA official, not the local police If she is worried about it right now, try to reassure her with that.


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## uzi (May 10, 2012)

@ newlight1 Talking about the timeline for fiance....in pakistan ukba has said they l take 24 weeks to answer as there's been too many settlement apps since the announcement of changes. So i guess all the weeding plans needs reviewing....

Whats up with the face to face interview?


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

uzi said:


> @ newlight1 Talking about the timeline for fiance....in pakistan ukba has said they l take 24 weeks to answer as there's been too many settlement apps since the announcement of changes. So i guess all the weeding plans needs reviewing....
> 
> Whats up with the face to face interview?


Pakistani students applying for UK visa will face compulsory interview | Education | The Guardian

Soon after the article (was on other news sites as well as on the UKBA news pages; I tried to find the UKBA piece but couldn't) was published, several applicants were arrested in Pakistan for attempting to obtain visas via fraud.


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## uzi (May 10, 2012)

Its sad that pakistan tops the list but i guess its the right measure to discourage fake applicants.


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

uzi said:


> Its sad that pakistan tops the list but i guess its the right measure to discourage fake applicants.


It IS sad! Visa abuse ripples out across the entire immigrant pond and has terrible consequences but only against the honest. We all suffer when people decide to break the civil law and 'social contracts' with other human beings-look at the new financial requirements, that's going to knock so many people out of being able to bring a spouse and or family here, and it's because abusers have flouted the civil law and really, spat in the face of the UK by abusing the welcome. 

It doesn't matter if the fraud is committed to gain a visa for study, work, or marriage-it's not only a civil crime, it's a social one. Wrong on every level but the criminal could care less.

Sorry, it just frosts me when honest people pay for the crimes of the dishonest.


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## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

Thanks everyone,

AINS

I am having trouble finding the part



> Also, the UKBA has just (yesterday) published the guidance for determining 'genuine and subsisting relationships' (look for the pdf link on the right hand side of the page)
> 
> UK Border Agency | Family migration changes announced - updated


Are they new requirements that have to be met from July 9th? Not applicable for us? As we met all the requirements when we applied. 

Thats interesting about the sham marriages. I was interested to take a look, do you have a direct link as Im having trouble finding that list you mention



> countries with 'sham marriage' applications (reading stats on UKBA and immigration sites like MigrationWatch, etc)


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

newlight1 said:


> Thanks everyone,
> 
> AINS
> 
> ...


Re 'genuine and subsisting' the only thing new is that the UKBA has published what they hope ECOs and other UKBA staff will be able to use in evaluating whether or not a relationship is real, nothing to worry about for genuine couples, but lol, it's a good idea to know the loved one's birthday, favourites foods and colours, and the way the couple met:lol: See-normal things that real couples know, but frauds do not. 

For the pdf that the UKBA has posted, click on the link below, then when the page opens to the updated news story, look on the right hand side of the page for the pdf link titled:

Annex FM Section FM 2.1 - genuine and subsisting

I'll try to get a link in to it, but I've had trouble linking straight into pdf links here, so this may not work:

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/s...ter8/appendixFM/section-FM2.1.pdf?view=Binary

Hey, it might work! As for the stats on sham marriages, you'll need to look on the Family Migration Consultation, and on the UKBA news pages:

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/s...family-migration/consultation.pdf?view=Binary (scroll down to the table of contents to the exact page numbers)

Damian Green: we do not tolerate sham marriages | Home Office

Search Results: sham marriages

ETA: WOW! I managed to get several working pdf links in, I love it!


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## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

Phewww had me worried there  

This is draft guidance and does not come into effect until 9 July

The new restrictions on what an ECO has to look at doesnt come in untill 9th July, so we wont be judged under that only was is in force before 9th July. Am I right in thinking that?

Thanks AMINSCOT


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

newlight1 said:


> Phewww had me worried there
> 
> This is draft guidance and does not come into effect until 9 July
> 
> ...


Short answer is 'basically, yes'-it's a little more complicated than that but basically yes. 

Longer answer-We all have to be able to prove at any time that we are in a genuine relationship if we are here on a spouse/civil partner, etc, visa. That's always been part of the process when applying. 

These new guidelines simply give the ECO a better feel for what they are looking for to ensure genuine relationships exist in the couple before issuing a relationship visa, from stage one (fiance(e), etc) to stage last (settlement). 

As I wrote above, this should not worry you, or anyone in a genuine relationship


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## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

Haha thanks for the As for the stats on sham marriages I still can not see the chart that lists the countries which have the higest sham marriages?? 

I goto http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/s...family-migration/consultation.pdf?view=Binary

Then goto 3. Tackling sham marriage 31

Can not seem to see it?


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

newlight1 said:


> Haha thanks for the As for the stats on sham marriages I still can not see the chart that lists the countries which have the higest sham marriages??
> 
> I goto http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/s...family-migration/consultation.pdf?view=Binary
> 
> ...


I'm having trouble finding it too! I went to ONS and can't find it; I used the UKBA search feature-can't find it. I even Googled. A little more success, although the official numbers I really believe I saw in a shocking set of graphs apparently were not UKBa, Home Office, or ONS stats after all as according to Damien Green, they don't keep those stats.

Try a Google search using the search term 'sham marriages in uk'. It brings back a shocking lot of news announcements of arrests of individuals and organisations-the various officials are quoted in a number of those pieces.


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## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

Thanks, I shall try to do that. I am surprised by Pakistan being the top of the list. I live in an area with a very high population of immigrants and 1st born Pakistanis, Indians etc and all the couples that I know are all married for life.

What do UKBA think of arranged marriages? Do they allow them?


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## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

Nope, cant find any kind of Sham Marriage chart, listing the countries with the highest to the lowest etc. Would have been interesting to see that. Ohh well.


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

newlight1 said:


> Thanks, I shall try to do that. I am surprised by Pakistan being the top of the list. I live in an area with a very high population of immigrants and 1st born Pakistanis, Indians etc and all the couples that I know are all married for life.
> 
> What do UKBA think of arranged marriages? Do they allow them?


From what I'm reading in the Statement of Intent, the UKBA understands that culturally, arranged marriages are not forced or sham marriages-they have some provisions in the SOI for how the ECo should deal with an arranged marriage, including asking the couple if they agree to the arrangements their parents have made. I was wondering how they were going to deal with that. You're absolutely right that most arranged marriages are genuine. 

I think the reason Pakistan made top of the list for sham marriages is because of the number of arrests that have been made. From what I've seen in new articles, the non-EEA citizen (usually Pakistan) is arrested in the course of planning the 'wedding' or at the wedding ceremony to an EEA citizen in the UK exercising treaty rights. 

Of course, there are also non-sham marriages that are interrupted by UKBA arrests, there was one recently that saw the couple jailed for several hours whilst an investigation was carried out. 

OK, I found the link-except now there aren't any stats posted anymore 

Migration statistics | Home Office

I'm cleaning up/out my files and if I find the pdf copies I took of the charts and graphs I saw (had red and blue bars, green lines, oh, it was a colour cornucopia!), I'll post them.


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## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

Thanks American, I am not being pessimistic, but whats the worst that the ECO could do if he wants to, ie slap a ten year ban or something like that, or do something so that we couldn't appeal? sorry sounds negative but just want to be prepared for the worst case even though we are a genuine couple.


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## 2farapart (Aug 18, 2011)

It depends on the circumstances. Relationships believed not to be genuine would lead to a refusal (making future applications more complex), whereas marriages actually FOUND to be sham would likely ensure you would never be able to apply for UK entry again. Sham marriages that take place within the UK can lead to immediate deportation or jail sentences as in this case: UK Border Agency | Derby man jailed in sham marriage crackdown.

But if you are in a genuine relationship, you really have NO cause to worry. The UKBA knows what to look for, and so the main concern is really about proving you can support yourselves.


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

From what I've read so far-and please bear in mind this is a personal opinion and interpretation because I am not a UKBA staffer with specialised training)-the ECO who suspects a sham marriage has some options beyond a flat banning. IIRC, a repeated and extended probationary period, home visits, and more rigorous examination of documents are among some of the options. 

I'm going to have to read over that part again, but there were also some instructions to ECOs regarding what constituted a credible report of a sham marriage.

In the end, though, what has had me thinking more and more the last 24 hours or so, is that despite the repeated claims that 'the statistics show sham marriages to be on the increase', the numbers are not findable any longer. I know that I saw at least one very colourful graph clearly showing that the highest number of sham marriages are between persons from Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh, and it seems as though Afghanistan was running a very close fourth-but since I can't find the graph anywhere anymore, it really bothers me-did it ever really exist as a genuine Home Office/UKBA graph, was it removed from public view for some reason (and if so, why, seems to me public view of stats to support something is rather valuable) or was it something put out there by someone else (with a pretty good graphics department, that graph looked 'official' to me!) to establish a meme? 

:confused2:

I find that thought troubling. I'm not a conspiracy theorist but not being able to find numbers to support the claims being made by certain government officials in support of movements to change rules that affect couples and families is becoming more difficult to understand-why are they claiming these things if they cannot produce the numbers to support the claims, and why remove those numbers from public view?

It really bothered me yesterday to read in several places (including the Hansard) quotes from Damien Green that the UKBA doesn't keep those statistics, frankly. Bothered me a lot.


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## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

> cannot produce the numbers to support the claims


(Have you been listening to Art Bell again American? 

Seriously though you are right and it bothers me alot that this can not be shown as this means we just have to take their word for it with no proof. I wonder why this is? So strange to put up that chart and then take it off within an hour or two. 

I was looking at a Chart detailing other countries family visa restrictions and it seems that the UK from July 9th will have the most restrictive in the whole world!! Even more than America. Basically they are saying that they don't want anyone to benefit not only from public funds but things that come from taxes like Libraries, the NHS, organisations which have been subsided by or partly the government things like public swimming pools etc etc. This is one reason why they have done this, however it is still morally wrong to take away someones human rights because they dont make enough money. Because as currently the way it stands is that the applicant has to prove they will not access public funds and I always find is so strange that they talk about how the applicant has to prove they will not access to public funds, but the applicant is not allowed too anyhow as it says right there in their passport "No recourse to Public Funds". A bit like saying to someone who pays for a wrist band at the entrance of a theme park and they buy a blue one which means they can only go on certain rides and have to show their blue band to the ride operator, if they want to go on a certain ride the ride operator sees they only have a blue band and can not access that ride. But to then say to the customer before they buy the blue band they have to ALSO prove they will not access rides which they are not entitled to use with a blue band!! that's just silly. Thats what it seems to me like the way it even is as the moment. 

After the changes its a million times worse. France or most other countries would not put up with them being told that "as a Legal Citizen of France you do not have the right to live in your country with your spouse as you do not make enough money" they wouldn't put up with that for one second. Basically a bin man can not bring his None EU wife to the UK but a Bank Manager could. I think we will look back on this in years to come and be horrified, I seem to remember from my History Books something similar happening (albeit a grander scale) in Germany in the 1940's by the third Reich with their "social cleansing" programs that pushed forward plans and ideas that certain social groups were not of value to a country and restricted them and took away certain rights they had. It is not just me who thinks this, I have also seen this written in National Papers over the last few weeks.


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## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

albeit a grander scale SHOULD read a greater scale


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## WestCoastCanadianGirl (Mar 17, 2012)

Newlight... why should new immigrants be allowed to have access to social programs that aren't available to settled/native born UK citizens? How is this fair to the working and tax paying people to have to support the likes of all of us who are newly arrived and not yet working and paying taxes?

It's a _choice_ to move to settle in the UK, so I think that with that choice comes a certain cost, and part of that cost expectation includes is being able to either support yourself (if you're independently wealthy or an entrepreneur looking to invest in the UK) or have a sponsor to support you until you get permanent resident status without being able to access public funds. If one can't afford to pay _something_ for one's own maintenance in the UK, then perhaps a different, less expensive place to live should be chosen.

I would expect this expectation to be asked of me from any country that I sought permission to settle in. Ed and I have made the choice that I will move to the UK (God willing) to live because our job prospects there are brighter than they are here in Canada (he earns a good deal more than I do in a year and I would be able to find work more easily over there than he would here, given that he was born blind)... in making that choice, we had to look at our finances and make sure that Ed would be able to support me for 3 years, in case I wasn't able to find work after I get a w*rk permit and also have enough money to pay for any children that we might have. We have the resources to do that in the UK (and very likely in Canada as well), so we are proceeding with getting me over as soon as we are able... if we weren't able, we'd have to either find a "plan B" or save our money until we could make it work.

Yes, it's too bad that the changes will be restrictive to everyone (even those from non-scam marriage countries are being penalised for the actions of a few... it's not just the scammers who are being hit) and some will be negatively affected, but that is the price we will have to pay for being allowed to stay. Fortunately, once we've paid our dues and received ILR, things will be a lot less restrictive, so while it's really going to be difficult in the beginning, these conditions placed on our lives are not "forever."

I also think it's not cool for he government to withhold information as its done, but there's not much we can do about it. Would the information sought be available under a "freedom of information" type act? If so, does such a character exist in the UK?


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## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

> Newlight... why should new immigrants be allowed to have access to social programs that aren't available to settled/native born UK citizens?


An immigrant would not be and is not currently even before the new rules. 




> It's a choice to move to settle in the UK, so I think that with that choice comes a certain cost, and part of that cost expectation includes is being able to either support yourself (if you're independently wealthy or an entrepreneur looking to invest in the UK) or have a sponsor to support you until you get permanent resident status without being able to access public funds.


A NON EU spouse of someone currently CAN NOT Access Public funds.

Westcoast, do you think its OK for a Bin Man not to be allowed his Wife to be with him in the UK but someone who is a Bank Manager to be allowed to have his Non EU Spouse in the UK with him?

Do you think its fair for instance that a Greek Person living in the UK, can bring in his/her Greek Spouse to live in the UK and have full access to all public facilities with no restrictions to be met but a British Citizen can not?


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## AnAmericanInScotland (Feb 8, 2012)

Oh dear, I really DID NOT mean to start this up again, WCCG! And lol, although C2C (NL1, I had to Google that!) isn't my favourite show, some of the things I've heard suggested by fans of the programme are spot-on...I have no intention of listing myself via a FOI request  

No, no, not gonna go there

I do think there are reasons to restrict immigration, to have a sensible and sustainable scheme so that binmen can bring over a spouse, but so that this smallish island isn't overwhelmed. 

NL1 rightly points out that non-EEA family migration route visa holders are restricted from accessing public funds. That is on our visas and accessing public funds can get our visa yanked in a half-heartbeat. So I don't (and haven't) seen how we can become a burden on the State anyway.

But what we were talking about is the stats on sham marriage, and how the government apparently doesn't even keep those stats-even though they banged on about how many there were and how those huge numbers were why they are changing some of the rules. 

I dunno. I feel for the people who are going to have to meet these new requirements. I feel for the ECOs who are going to have to wrap their minds around allllllllllll the ways to meet those financial requirements (there are options from A to G, that's a lot of options!)

But I also feel for the UK-this island is an island, with only so many resources, and only so many square feet. And jobs-personally I think British citizens (by birth, descent, or ancestry) should be the legally required first choice for employers-it's the only way it's fair.

I'm sorry about the way this is going to sound, but is it fair that an EEA national can bring his/her family here and be completely eligible for all public funds straight off the boat/plane? How is THAT fair??

And then there are the student visa overstayers. Who work...

Immigration is a very hot button topic!


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## newlight1 (Feb 13, 2012)

> I'm sorry about the way this is going to sound, but is it fair that an EEA national can bring his/her family here and be completely eligible for all public funds straight off the boat/plane?


and not have to meet ANY restrictions BUT British Citizen who has a Non EU Family Member ie SPouse is Banned from bringing in his Spouse (unless he makes a certain amount of money) NOW that is extremely unfair. 

In terms of the UK being an Island, it is, in terms of unpopulated area, over 80% of the UK is rural. So in terms of space, we have plenty. In terms of facilities, if people who come here work or contribute to society ie pay their taxes or are not have access to public funds (as is the current situation), there is no one adversely affected and the country becomes a better and more diverse place


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## WestCoastCanadianGirl (Mar 17, 2012)

newlight1 said:


> An immigrant would not be and is not currently even before the new rules.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I don't think it's fair at all... I was playing devil's advocate here. 

My Fiancé (a UK born and citizen) is fortunate enough to have a job that pays more than a bin-man but less than the bank manager, and I completely reent the fact that he has to prove that he can support me, a born and raised citizen of the _British Commonwealth_ (which I think should entitle me to rights similar to those of an EEA citizen, as H.M. Queen Elizabeth II is the soverign of my country) while those who have no legitimate ties can get past these rules. 

Sadly, a few have wrecked it for the whole, and as a result, we all have to pay the price. It's also my understanding that EEA applicants have to meet specific requirements that are different from what British citizens/settled persons must meet (there's a thread a few pages back about a Greek Nation who was not able to bring his partner over because they'd not been in a marriage like situation for 2 years... he tried to claim a right under one regulation while the ECO judged him under a different reg). As such, I still don't think that it's unfair to expect new immigrants to have to pay for part of their day-to-day care while they wait for permanent residency status.

To be honest, it's very generous for the NHS to allow us all easy access to care. In Canada, most new immigrants have to wait a minimum of 90 days before being able to be covered under provincial health plans, and once coverage starts, monthly payment is required.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

I'm going to close this thread as the discussion has moved away from the original question and the tone has become strident and controversial.


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