# Move to Germany for work



## PupMcPuppington

Hello All, 

Thought I'd sign up and say Hello as someone who has plans of moving to Germany in the next 1-1.5 years.

Here's where I'm currently at: British Citizen, currently a Canadian PR (Living in Vancouver) and applying for Canadian Citizenship, which is due to come through some time in the next 10 months. Education-Wise, I have a college diploma in Computer Studies and Information Systems (2018), alongside 12 years work experience in the IT Industry, in various support and deployment roles (some with large international companies), and more recently some consulting and software implementation experience in the government and municipality sector. Language-wise, fluent English, and minimal German gained through 2 years of high school education, and more recently Duolingo. I know the sounds and certain phrases, but can by no means converse in German (yet!)

Here's where I want to go: Likely Berlin, as I know a couple of people there, but will also consider other big cities in Germany. 

What's my plan: To get my CDN citizenship, then move to Germany sometime late 2023. In the meantime, I'm planning on signing up to German school in the next week or so to start my German A1 learning, which will be two one hour lessons per week. By the time next fall comes around, I'm hoping to be at level A2, or maybe even B1 if I can excel in my learning. With this, I am planing on moving to Germany and attending German school (I have read that I can get a special visa for this) for 6-12 months, which will hopefully get me to German B2. Then I am planning either:

- Look for work in my current field of software consulting and implementation, or support if really necessary. My research shows that as a CDN citizen, I can stay in Germany to look for work without a JSV. If I am unsuccessful, then:

- Hopefully I'll be fluent enough in German to attend University and gain a bachelor degree of some kind, or do vocational training (unsure of the age restrictions on these two), which will give me time to further learn German (hopefully to C level), and put me in a better position as a prospective employee. 

I'll have enough money to support myself through my first year of German school, and if I take the university route, I'll be able to work part time while studying.

Based on the above, any inputs, feedback, or considerations I should make, before I commit to and embark on this new adventure would be most welcomed.

Thanks


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## Harry Moles

I don't know enough to comment on the current state of the German job market, so I'll leave that out.

Your UK citizenship gives you the same privileges as Canadian, so you don't need to wait for Canadian citizenship on Germany's account. (There are many other reasons to obtain Canadian citizenship, of course.) 

As a Brit or Canadian you can stay in Germany for up to 90 days without a visa, and if you find a job during that time you then apply for a residence permit and hope that the foreigner's office (LEA, formerly known as the Ausländerbehörde) will grant permission for you to stay. Alternately, if you have job offer before leaving Canada, you could apply for a visa - then you'd at least know it would work before you book flights.

It pains me to admit this, as someone who is proud of the fact that they learned German as an adult, but if you are working in the digital/IT world in Berlin, you'll probably be speaking English all day.


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## PupMcPuppington

Thanks for the reply Harry. 

My research seems to indicate that, beyond 90 days, a Canadian doesn't need to apply for a job seeker permit when it comes to looking for work, where the same privilege is not extended to UK citizens (I got this from Germany Job Seeker Visa Requirements and Application Process - Germany Visa). I am intending on gaining my Canadian citizenship first regardless, as I've worked hard for it, and want somewhere to come back to in case it doesn't work out. I also need some time to save money for the move. 

As for the IT industry mostly speaking English, this isn't a problem, and can only serve to make things a little easier, but I will still apply for a German Language School visa (German Language Course Visa (Visa for Language Learning) - Germany Visa), and attend German school in Germany, as I want to be able to converse in the local language. 

If I'm reading things right, I don't need a degree alongside 5 years relevant experience to work in the tech industry, as these rules have been relaxed due to skills shortages. Can anyone confirm this please?


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## *Sunshine*

First of all, I think it is great you've already done some research, however, your source is not accurate. You might want to avoid privately run websites in the future. 

Germany is a country that values formal qualifications and not having any will make a move much more difficult than you are anticipating. I would strongly recommend that you start by having your diploma evaluated as well as determining whether or not you are eligible to study in Germany. 

Keep in mind that if you are over 25, it is much more difficult to obtain a position as an apprentice. 

If you are disciplined, you can use online resources to learn the basics on your own in a few months and then start B1 classes.


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## Bevdeforges

One other consideration in your plans. While sure, many tech businesses in Germany use English as their "company language" you will still need some level of German to deal with day to day interactions outside of work. Think shopping, medical care, training in anything other than language training, basic administrative tasks (registering for residence, signing a housing lease, obtaining a driving license, car registration or signing up for any form of insurance, dealing with your bank, filing taxes, etc.). Granted, you won't actually learn coversational German until you are on site and "forced" to use it in real time, but having a decent basic level will make the transitional phase go much quicker - and there is lots of stress and awkwardness to get through on moving to a new country even when your spoken German is at a "decent" level to begin with. (Ask me how I know this. <g>


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## Harry Moles

Not sure where you did that research but nothing in my experience suggests that Canadians can stay beyond 90 days without some form of Aufenthaltserlaubnis. Always go to the official source.

You are misreading the information on the link you provided. Canadians and other "privileged" nationalities can enter the country and look for a job without first obtaining a visa, but they only have 90 days before the clock runs out. Everyone else needs to get a visa first. If you think you'll need 6 months, you can still apply for the JSV (if your qualifications are recognized, which may be a problem since you only have a diploma, not a degree).

Canadians are eligible for some fairly generous "youth mobility scheme" residence permits. If you are young enough to qualify - which you might not be if you have 12 years' work experience - then you can come for one or two years very easily, and potentially extend your residence if you have a good job that is willing to sponsor you.

A residence permit for language study does not give you the right to work. A student enrolled at university can work up to approximately 50 percent, whatever number of days that it is a year.

Also, don't get me wrong, having German is a good thing, very useful and likely to make life much more enjoyable, but in some parts of the digital/IT business it is no longer necessary.


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## *Sunshine*

PupMcPuppington said:


> and more recently some consulting and software implementation experience in the government and municipality sector.





Harry Moles said:


> Also, don't get me wrong, having German is a good thing, very useful and likely to make life much more enjoyable, but in some parts of the digital/IT business it is no longer necessary.


Consulting and software implementation especially for clients in the public sector requires excellent German.


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## Harry Moles

*Sunshine* said:


> Consulting and software implementation especially for clients in the public sector requires excellent German.


Client-facing roles are a whole different story, though even then I remember client meetings switching to English the moment a single non-German-speaker on our team entered the room. (As someone who had actually learned German well enough to make client presentations, this annoyed me.)


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## PupMcPuppington

*Sunshine* said:


> First of all, I think it is great you've already done some research, however, your source is not accurate. You might want to avoid privately run websites in the future.
> 
> Germany is a country that values formal qualifications and not having any will make a move much more difficult than you are anticipating. I would strongly recommend that you start by having your diploma evaluated as well as determining whether or not you are eligible to study in Germany.
> 
> Keep in mind that if you are over 25, it is much more difficult to obtain a position as an apprentice.
> 
> If you are disciplined, you can use online resources to learn the basics on your own in a few months and then start B1 classes.


Thanks for the info Sunshine. I'll be 41 next year when I'm planning on making this move, so just a little bit over 25 (I assume you're referring to the vocational training when you mention apprentice?). Do you know how I would get my diploma evaluated... Is there an official place to have it done? Also, when you are referring to me being eligible to study further, is that something qualified by my diploma, or by my age?

I know this is also a privately run website, but there is some information on the skilled immigration act, and how it applies to the IT sector here. It's taken from the site of a German immigration lawyer, so while privately run, I'd say it's somewhat reputable.



Bevdeforges said:


> One other consideration in your plans. While sure, many tech businesses in Germany use English as their "company language" you will still need some level of German to deal with day to day interactions outside of work. Think shopping, medical care, training in anything other than language training, basic administrative tasks (registering for residence, signing a housing lease, obtaining a driving license, car registration or signing up for any form of insurance, dealing with your bank, filing taxes, etc.). Granted, you won't actually learn coversational German until you are on site and "forced" to use it in real time, but having a decent basic level will make the transitional phase go much quicker - and there is lots of stress and awkwardness to get through on moving to a new country even when your spoken German is at a "decent" level to begin with. (Ask me how I know this. <g>


It is my intention to learn German and be able to communicate to a professional level eventually, hence my initial plan of starting to learn now, then going to dedicated German school for a year. What is your experience with stress, even knowing the language?



Harry Moles said:


> You are misreading the information on the link you provided. Canadians and other "privileged" nationalities can enter the country and look for a job without first obtaining a visa, but they only have 90 days before the clock runs out. Everyone else needs to get a visa first. If you think you'll need 6 months, you can still apply for the JSV (if your qualifications are recognized, which may be a problem since you only have a diploma, not a degree).


Thanks for the clarification on this



> Canadians are eligible for some fairly generous "youth mobility scheme" residence permits. If you are young enough to qualify - which you might not be if you have 12 years' work experience - then you can come for one or two years very easily, and potentially extend your residence if you have a good job that is willing to sponsor you.


Definitely doesn't apply to me



> A residence permit for language study does not give you the right to work. A student enrolled at university can work up to approximately 50 percent, whatever number of days that it is a year.
> 
> Also, don't get me wrong, having German is a good thing, very useful and likely to make life much more enjoyable, but in some parts of the digital/IT business it is no longer necessary.


Understand I wouldn't be able to work while I'm studying. I could however use the time to network and make connections while I'm learning. A year is quite some time to make some good connections and be present for any meetings with prospective employers. I also know a couple of people who I'm sure would be happy to help with this.



Harry Moles said:


> *Sunshine* said:
> 
> 
> 
> Consulting and software implementation especially for clients in the public sector requires excellent German.
> 
> 
> 
> Client-facing roles are a whole different story, though even then I remember client meetings switching to English the moment a single non-German-speaker on our team entered the room. (As someone who had actually learned German well enough to make client presentations, this annoyed me.)
Click to expand...

My current experience is in public sector, but I don't see a reason to be tied to that. My role could easily be transferred to the private sector

Thank you for the engagement and helpful replies everyone. It always helps to get actual people's input to go along with my research.


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## Harry Moles

Why don't you test the waters by applying for some jobs online, even if you aren't planning to move immediately? That will give you a better sense of what is and is not going to be possible.


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## *Sunshine*

PupMcPuppington said:


> I'll be 41 next year when I'm planning on making this move, so just a little bit over 25 (I assume you're referring to the vocational training when you mention apprentice?). Do you know how I would get my diploma evaluated... Is there an official place to have it done? Also, when you are referring to me being eligible to study further, is that something qualified by my diploma, or by my age?


I don't know how to put this politely, but what would have been difficult in your late twenties, is going to be practically impossible in your early 40s. Although numerous lawsuits have put a stop to age requirements in job ads, age discrimination is rampant in Germany.

Young Germans usually start an apprenticeship/vocational training _(Berufsausbildung)_ in Germany after completing school (Grade 10 or _Abitur_) and are usually between 16 and 19, however, anyone under 25 won't raise any eyebrows. IT is a very popular field and many applicants will have also completed an _Abitur_. You could probably get an apprenticeship at a kindergarten or an elderly care home (two sectors desperate for workers), however, it is highly unlikely that you be considered for anything in IT.

Admission to university will depend on your secondary school education. How many A levels did you complete? How were your grades? You can start by first looking up your qualifications in the anabin databank to see if you meet the minimum entry requirements for entrance to a German university. 

More importantly, do you really want to start over in Germany? I personally couldn't imagine living in shared accommodation again.


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## Bevdeforges

PupMcPuppington said:


> It is my intention to learn German and be able to communicate to a professional level eventually, hence my initial plan of starting to learn now, then going to dedicated German school for a year. What is your experience with stress, even knowing the language?


OK - I found a job in Germany after taking an undergraduate degree in Germanic Languages, an MBA, CPA and 15 years in the US as a manager in a variety of industries. It may have been a bit of a stretch, but I listed my German skills on my CV as "fluent." The job I got I got basically because I managed to do my interview with my boss-to-be all in German, Turns out the guy was in a position where he was "supposed" to speak English but was a clever enough engineer and designer that the (US based) company decided to hire him despite his rather limited English speaking skills. One of the "unwritten" job requirements was to be able to translate for him when we were visiting the regional headquarters in the UK. 

It took me several months to really come up to speed with working in German, despite my academic success in language studies. Working on the telephone was the worst problem - and I was in a part of Germany that has a pretty thick accent. I was fortunate to have a really great secretary in the position, who could write most standard types of business letters for me in German - including not only the content but all the "peculiarities" of social convention that are part of business correspondence auf Deutsch.

Then, there were the various differences in my area of expertise ( i.e. accounting) and I was again lucky to have a really great accounting manager working for me. Again, his English wasn't great, but he knew his Buchhaltung inside out. Same for our payroll clerk. It can be amazing how many terms you never learn in "language classes" are vital to each professional area. Wound up attending several German classes in labor law and other aspects of the job. I loved the job in large part because it was an incredible learning experience. But don't underestimate having to learn expressions and vocabulary unique to what it is you do as a profession.

And I know that one of my biggest surprises was discovering how few "real people" in the area spoke any English at all. When you're a tourist in Germany you get used to being able to "get by" with English - and given the relationship between the two languages, it's safe to throw the odd word of English into a German sentence and most folks will understand you. But their responses generally use plenty of words you simply have never been exposed to. No matter what your job, you still have to buy food, go to the doctor, ask directions how to get some place, report something to the police or (the big eye opener for me) try to explain to the barber or hairdresser how you want your hair cut. Those are the really humbling experiences. But you get over them, develop a sense of humor about your mistakes and maybe even learn some stuff.


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## Harry Moles

*Sunshine* said:


> I don't know how to put this politely, but what would have been difficult in your late twenties, is going to be practically impossible in your early 40s.


I think that might be a bit pessimistic. I managed to find work in the digital/IT world in my 30s and 40s, at a time when there was less English in the workplace. If the OP has skills in high demand, something should be possible.


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## *Sunshine*

Harry Moles said:


> I think that might be a bit pessimistic. I managed to find work in the digital/IT world in my 30s and 40s, at a time when there was less English in the workplace. If the OP has skills in high demand, something should be possible.


And what skills does the OP have that are currently in high demand in Germany that do not require any formal qualifications?


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## Harry Moles

*Sunshine* said:


> And what skills does the OP have that are currently in high demand in Germany that do not require any formal qualifications?


This I do not know, but presumably the OP does. Personally, I have no "formal" qualifications for the work I've done in Germany. I have multiple degrees in subjects completely unrelated to how I earn money.


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## *Sunshine*

Harry Moles said:


> This I do not know, but presumably the OP does.


How is the OP supposed to know? He is a British citizen living in Canada who has probably never even worked in Germany.



Harry Moles said:


> I have multiple degrees in subjects completely unrelated to how I earn money.


There is still a huge difference in finding employment with degrees in another field in Germany and not having *any* degrees.

Certain companies won't even consider graduates from FHs for consulting roles. I just can't see them hiring an older foreigner without any degree for a decent salary.


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## *Sunshine*

PupMcPuppington said:


> Do you know how I would get my diploma evaluated... Is there an official place to have it done?


There isn't one official place to have qualifications evaluated, but rather many and the office responsible for the evaluation depends on the qualifications and the purpose of the evaluation. 

I think you should start by trying to apply with the IHK FOSA to see if they would be willing to combine your diploma with your work experience. Normally vocational qualifications have substantial supervised practical experience during training; there is no guarantee that you'll receive a positive assessment and it'll cost a few hundred euros.






Für Antragstellende







www.ihk-fosa.de


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## ALKB

PupMcPuppington said:


> Do you know how I would get my diploma evaluated... Is there an official place to have it done?


Have a look here, it might point you to the relevant authority in Berlin:









Anerkennung in Deutschland - Skilled workers


Would you like to work in your profession in Germany? Find out here how to get recognition!




www.anerkennung-in-deutschland.de


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## ALKB

PupMcPuppington said:


> Education-Wise, I have a college diploma in Computer Studies and Information Systems (2018)


Is that diploma from the UK or Canada?


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## PupMcPuppington

Again, thanks for the input everyone, it's always good to hear other people's perspectives, even if they aren't sunshine and roses.



Harry Moles said:


> Why don't you test the waters by applying for some jobs online, even if you aren't planning to move immediately? That will give you a better sense of what is and is not going to be possible.


I don't think I'd be in a good place to do that curerntly, having very minimal knowledge of the language, and being based halfway across the world.



ALKB said:


> Is that diploma from the UK or Canada?


My diploma is a recent one (2018) gained through in-person college education in Canada.


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## Harry Moles

PupMcPuppington said:


> I don't think I'd be in a good place to do that curerntly, having very minimal knowledge of the language, and being based halfway across the world.


Starting with online applications is a cheap way of finding out whether there is any interest in your skills and background. Plenty of hiring happens online. Depending on the job, there may be little or no requirement for German.

I'm not saying it's easy, but it's not impossible. I worked in a high-demand field and had no trouble finding contract positions every time we came over for half a year. Had I wanted to stay longer than would not have been a problem. I have no formal credentials or qualifications for what I do.


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## PupMcPuppington

Harry Moles said:


> Starting with online applications is a cheap way of finding out whether there is any interest in your skills and background. Plenty of hiring happens online. Depending on the job, there may be little or no requirement for German.
> 
> I'm not saying it's easy, but it's not impossible. I worked in a high-demand field and had no trouble finding contract positions every time we came over for half a year. Had I wanted to stay longer than would not have been a problem. I have no formal credentials or qualifications for what I do.


The reason I'm thinking now isn't the best time, is because most of the work I do is client-facing, for which I feel like I'll need competent language skills for, which I currently don't have.

Can I ask what area of IT you specialize and have experience in?


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## Harry Moles

PupMcPuppington said:


> The reason I'm thinking now isn't the best time, is because most of the work I do is client-facing, for which I feel like I'll need competent language skills for, which I currently don't have.
> 
> Can I ask what area of IT you specialize and have experience in?


User experience design, a.k.a. "Konzepter" in German. I followed the link and looked up "designer for digital and print media" - there is no standard, and no need to have credentials recognized, so I can be hired purely on the basis of experience.

A note of caution - For the past 20 years I've only picked up contracts while on half-year visits. It was easy to get a work permit because I was leaving again - family reasons. Had I wanted a permanent, salaried job, that might have been a more challenging task, but certainly not impossible. I also have quite good German.

To be honest, you need to do a lot more research into whether you're hireable. A designer or developer going into a Berlin startup without much German is not unusual. I imagine it's not particularly well paid, but a good start. On the other hand, someone in the their early forties looking for a mid-career client-facing role is in a very different position. Language may or may not be an issue, depending on the clients and business. Lack of a degree may or may not be an issue, depending on the skillset and role. 

At this point I'd be less concerned with figuring out the mechanics of residence permits and language courses. You should focus exclusively on that one fundamental question: will anyone hire me, and if so, at what standard of living? Everything else is secondary. You should be able to find an answer without uprooting yourself for a year. (Uprooting yourself for a year is a perfectly fun thing to do if you can afford, but not if you're counting on a particular outcome for your continued financial security.)


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## Bevdeforges

One idea for checking out the job market in your field in Germany (or any foreign country) might be to start browsing the job postings on an "international" job hunting site - Monster (try Monster.de for German jobs), LinkedIn, Stepstone (again, *.de) and whatever else is out there these days.

Granted, most of the postings will be in the country language - but there are usually quite a few English language posts, if only by headhunting firms. Browsing the local language posts will start teaching you some of the vocabulary for your line of work. And when you find a couple of English language ads in your field, you'll start to see what sorts of qualifications and experience employers are looking for. 

When I was looking to move to Europe (many years ago - some things admittedly have changed since then), I answered any ad that looked even barely "interesting." Ultimately, I got a reply from an international headhunter, who admitted that I would NOT want the job I had responded to, but that she was sure that she could find several of her clients who would be interested in what I had to offer. Once I got a couple of nibbles, I booked a short "vacation trip" to Europe and set up interviews from my central location. Expensive, but I wound up with a couple of job offers - and the rest, as they say, is history. However, the hiring process in Germany (and Europe in general) takes a long time - so it pays to start early and be ready to improvise as you go along.


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## PupMcPuppington

Harry Moles said:


> To be honest, you need to do a lot more research into whether you're hireable. A designer or developer going into a Berlin startup without much German is not unusual. I imagine it's not particularly well paid, but a good start. On the other hand, someone in the their early forties looking for a mid-career client-facing role is in a very different position. Language may or may not be an issue, depending on the clients and business. Lack of a degree may or may not be an issue, depending on the skillset and role.
> 
> At this point I'd be less concerned with figuring out the mechanics of residence permits and language courses. You should focus exclusively on that one fundamental question: will anyone hire me, and if so, at what standard of living? Everything else is secondary. You should be able to find an answer without uprooting yourself for a year. (Uprooting yourself for a year is a perfectly fun thing to do if you can afford, but not if you're counting on a particular outcome for your continued financial security.)


This is a good perspective. The main reason I'd be willing to uproot and move to Germany for a year would be to learn the language to an advanced level, as I'm under no false impression that I'd be able to (or even want to) get by with English. I know it'll be a challenge, and quite possibly a difficult one at that, but I feel like I have to, and want to try. As for financial security, I'd have enough to support myself for a year at least.



Bevdeforges said:


> One idea for checking out the job market in your field in Germany (or any foreign country) might be to start browsing the job postings on an "international" job hunting site - Monster (try Monster.de for German jobs), LinkedIn, Stepstone (again, *.de) and whatever else is out there these days.


I have been checking out LinkedIn, and there are plenty of postings in English. Most of them do however, require business fluent German, and some require experience with a certain piece of software (eg. ServiceNow), project management experience (which is a part of the implementation specialist role). The only mention of academic qualifications usually says Degree or relevant experience, the latter of which I definitely have.


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## *Sunshine*

PupMcPuppington said:


> because most of the work I do is client-facing, for which I feel like I'll need competent language skills for, which I currently don't have.


Do you have substantial experience in areas that do not require direct contact with clients? Programming?


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## Harry Moles

Depending on the job being sought, I'd also be wary about the prospect of reaching an acceptable standard of German after a year of classroom instruction. You can only handle so many hours of that before your brain turns off. My biggest leaps came from full-immersion experiences, working in non-client settings where I could safely butcher the language. It was exhausting, but effective.


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