# Flying to Madeira with my dog in the cargo hold?



## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

Hello, I traveled here from the USA with my best friend Cecil and although I was able to get him on the plane coming here it was a very close call. They told me at the ticket counter that he was too tall for his carrier but that was after I already had his ticket/tag and we were able to board the plane. At the time we arrived Cecil weighed 9kg but he was a bit thin from dieting and he probably weighs 10kg now. 

We are currently in Italy but we want to go to Madeira. There is supposedly a ferry to Madeira but it does not start running until July and we want to go in March or April. I tried searching for flights but all the airlines that service Madeira have animal restrictions for weight and/or carrier size well below Cecil's size. Thus I am reluctantly considering flying with him in the cargo hold.  I wish they would let me fly in the cargo hold with him!

We are traveling light, I have an e-bike and some clothes in a backpack and Cecil has a soft carrier. I am wondering if it is safe to fly with a dog in a soft carrier in the hold? Do they rent hard crates at the airport or do they have special compartments or something for flying dogs in the hold? Or do I need to buy him a hard carrier for his safety? Is there another way to get him to Madeira? Is it a risk and we should consider waiting for the ferry in July? He is my best friend and I do not want to risk his health or safety. Thank you.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

I've moved your question to the Portugal forum for you.


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## JohnBoy (Oct 25, 2009)

As you say, there are no passenger ferries until July, but have you considered travelling as a passenger on a freighter? I did a little Googling for you an found this.

Contact details for Blandy's are:

Telephone: +351 291 200 660

Email: [email protected]


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

JohnBoy said:


> As you say, there are no passenger ferries until July, but have you considered travelling as a passenger on a freighter? I did a little Googling for you an found this.
> 
> Contact details for Blandy's are:
> 
> ...


Flying would be easier since we are in Southern Sardinia but I am considering all options. A freighter directly from Sardinia, Italy or Barcelona would probably be the best option of all if one exists. I do not think cruise ships will allow a dog, as far as I know only the QM2 has this option but maybe a cruise line servicing Madeira allows dogs on board. I am not entirely sure how to get to Portugal yet by land though. I know if I take the bike apart and put it inside a travel bag I can take a train to northern Sardinia, then a ferry to Barcelona, and then 2 high speed trains to Sevilla. After that it looks like maybe buses to get into Portugal (if they allow large bike bags and a dog). It would probably take at least 3 days to get there while carrying a 60lb and 30lb suitcase with no wheels (plus a dog).

I will start researching freighters, thank you.


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## JohnBoy (Oct 25, 2009)

John and Cecil said:


> Flying would be easier since we are in Southern Sardinia but I am considering all options. A freighter directly from Sardinia, Italy or Barcelona would probably be the best option of all if one exists. I do not think cruise ships will allow a dog, as far as I know only the QM2 has this option but maybe a cruise line servicing Madeira allows dogs on board. I am not entirely sure how to get to Portugal yet by land though. I know if I take the bike apart and put it inside a travel bag I can take a train to northern Sardinia, then a ferry to Barcelona, and then 2 high speed trains to Sevilla. After that it looks like maybe buses to get into Portugal (if they allow large bike bags and a dog). It would probably take at least 3 days to get there while carrying a 60lb and 30lb suitcase with no wheels (plus a dog).
> 
> I will start researching freighters, thank you.


As you had already mentioned the passenger ferry to Madeira, I assumed that by that time you would already be in Portugal.

As far as cruise ships are concerned, the current general situation is that they will only allow service dogs that are properly accredited and documented, i.e. not a sham certificate purchased off Amazon/eBay. At this time of year there are only a very limited number of cruise ships in the Mediterranean anyway as the majority are in the calmer waters of the Caribbean.

I'm afraid that your idea of the overland route from Barcelona will not work due to:

1. A luggage restriction on Spanish rail services

2. Luggage limits and a ban on the carriage of pets on international buses operated by the particular company covering your proposed route.

If I were in your position I would consider a ferry to Naples and then fly with the Portuguese airline TAP via Lisbon to Funchal. I have found an agency site showing ferries with Tirrenia twice a week but they do not show up on the Tirrenia website. It might be worth to check locally.

Cecil will be welcome with TAP but will have to fly in the hold and in a hard box that you will have to supply and it must be to the minimum dimensions specified.


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

JohnBoy said:


> As you had already mentioned the passenger ferry to Madeira, I assumed that by that time you would already be in Portugal.
> 
> As far as cruise ships are concerned, the current general situation is that they will only allow service dogs that are properly accredited and documented, i.e. not a sham certificate purchased off Amazon/eBay. At this time of year there are only a very limited number of cruise ships in the Mediterranean anyway as the majority are in the calmer waters of the Caribbean.
> 
> ...


From what I have been reading online it is supposedly fine to travel with a pet and a bike on the Spanish trains. On their website they are advertising that anyone may carry a small dog in a soft crate and also a bike in a bag/case provided it is smaller than 120 x 80 or so I recall. They even say if you bring your bike it is free, they want people to take their bikes with them. The batteries are just small power tool batteries, I carried them here on planes and they are legal to fly at under 100wh each. They are not much bigger than a laptop battery.

As for the buses after Sevilla they may not let us on, however we do have the option of riding the bike after that point if necessary or possibly renting a car to drop everything off and then return the car and I take the bus alone. I can ride up to 50 miles per day on the bike.

It would be easier to fly but I am trying to research it first. I know flying with a dog in a hold in the USA is deemed dangerous and many dogs have died or become lost during the process.


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

I read through the train link. My guess would be that the 25kg weight limit is not enforced, otherwise no one would be bringing a bike on the train. Even non e-bikes weigh about 15-20kg inside a case. I can probably stuff some heavier items in my pockets and inside my jacket to cut the weight down a bit and get rid of some things. My guess is that they want a person to be able to carry their own luggage.


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## JohnBoy (Oct 25, 2009)

If you are happy that you will be able to travel on Spanish trains, you might like to know of an alternative routing. You could take the high speed rail service from Barcelona to Madrid and then the overnight Trenhotel from Madrid direct to Lisbon.


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

JohnBoy said:


> If you are happy that you will be able to travel on Spanish trains, you might like to know of an alternative routing. You could take the high speed rail service from Barcelona to Madrid and then the overnight Trenhotel from Madrid direct to Lisbon.


I really appreciate all your help, thank you. I looked into the trenhotel train and it sounded really wonderful but they have a restriction that dogs must weigh 6kg or less. The ave trains have a restriction of 10kg which works for Cecil. Perhaps they do not enforce that though.

I am not certain about Madeira yet as it may not be the most dog friendly. I may try to sell the e-bike too before I leave as it will be easier to travel, or if I find a rental early enough I may be able to ship some things there instead of carrying them. 

I have been trying to figure out where in Portugal where we would be happiest but it is difficult to tell without going there first. My original plan was to buy a small 125cc motorcycle here in Italy with 1 year registration (ee plates) and 1 year of insurance and then ride that to Portugal. The problem that arose is PT taxes and crazy paperwork to transfer it there and I do not understand the Portuguese language. It still may be the best option though. It is difficult traveling with a dog.

I am still analyzing the country from my computer. I like the northernmost part of the country if I can handle the weather. I also like the south-eastern corner for the weather mostly but I have some concerns about living in the Algarve region. Perhaps there are areas in the center that might be appealing after I research them some more. We do not plan on staying there all year though, I just want to establish residency and then we will probably travel 3-5 months per year.


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## JohnBoy (Oct 25, 2009)

You're welcome John.

Googling "dogs on Trenhotel" will indeed take you to a website that is not controlled by the operator RENFE and will specify a limit of 6 kgs. However, if you go to the operator's website you will see that they specify 10 kgs.

One man and his dog crossing Europe on a 125cc motorcycle sounds the basis of a good movie. I hope that at least you will be blogging your journey!

As far as a future life in Portugal is concerned, I will follow this post by sending you a PM.


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## smudges (May 2, 2013)

This all sounds fascinating! Please keep us updated and if there is a blog or book or film please give the details. Good luck to you both.


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

smudges said:


> This all sounds fascinating! Please keep us updated and if there is a blog or book or film please give the details. Good luck to you both.


Thank you. There is no book or film or blog or anything but Cecil was a little famous in California.  He has 80,000 miles on motorcycles and he rolled with the canyon racers in California wearing a full set of custom armor (glasses, helmet, and armored back protector). He came from a kill shelter, I drove 300 miles each way to save him as he had only 1 day left before they were going to kill him. That was 9 years ago.

Our last motorcycle was an Aprilia Dorsoduro 750 and his custom carrier had a rollcage added, but we sold that along with everything else I owned to move to Europe. We don't want to ride the larger motorcycles anymore due to their negative impact on the environment so our next motorcycle will probably be a 125-250cc supermoto and it will be much better for the environment. We may even move up to an electric motorcycle, especially if we move to an island. 

I do have some pictures taken of him, I will see what I can post here. There is also a very short video taken of him on Halloween, the link is below. He was so popular on Halloween at times we had 5 lanes of cars on the freeway taking our picture at the same time. The Dorsoduro was capable of speeds up to 200kph, and with the Halloween setup it was capable of speeds up to 150kph. 

Cecil actually gets mad if cars slow us down and he will bark at them until we pass. He also barks when we lane split through the heavy California traffic to let the cars know we are coming and to get out of our way.


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## JohnBoy (Oct 25, 2009)

Love the photos and video John. Thanks for sharing. Did you receive my PM?


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

JohnBoy said:


> Love the photos and video John. Thanks for sharing. Did you receive my PM?


Yes, thank you. It is very much appreciated, I will read it after we get back home. I just skimmed through it quickly as I am taking Cecil out for a walk and lunch now. 

I do not know if facebook will help though, I quit facebook years ago after they tried to force me to send them copies of my identification documents. I believe there is a link between facebook and identity theft, as well as other issues with leaked privacy, etc. 

The issue I found with Madeira is they apparently have some regulation about dogs moving to the island Apparently some dogs cannot be imported to live there (I believe the larger breeds) and all dogs must be registered there withing 90 days of arrival. The biggest issue is being able to get on and off the island with a dog that weighs above the airline in-cabin requirements, especially with the ferry only operating for 3 months a year. I have not been researching this for very long though, but I plan on doing so over the next few months as well as trying to learn a little Portuguese as well.

Thanks again!


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## JohnBoy (Oct 25, 2009)

That's interesting about the importation of dogs into Madeira. I had no idea. Whether Madeira or the mainland, Cecil will need to have been chipped and, if you plan to settle here, his chip details will have to be recorded on the EU register. That's a way off and if it comes to it, any vet will help with that.

Enjoy your walk.


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## smudges (May 2, 2013)

Cool, happy dog! Cecil is a star, and so are you, John.


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

G1lborg said:


> Hi there! Have you flighted already? I wonder how did your dog feel during the flight.


Good morning, no we have not flown yet. We are not going to Portugal until March or April of this year. Cecil does great when flying inside the cabin and his soft crate is at my feet but I am worried about flying with him in the hold. He does great because I am with him, but if I am not there he will likely be anxious and afraid. Hopefully I can avoid flying with him as cargo, any means of travel would be better. I did research cruise ships and freighters a little but all the ones I found refuse to allow dogs on board, I think they are concerned with transporting animals to an island or to another country and getting into trouble with the authorities. 

Perhaps some other people here have experience with flying with pets in the hold and can be more helpful with their response? I did research this a little before coming to Europe and pet owners were very cautious about flying with their pets in the hold in the USA. Long delays, pets getting out and lost at the airport, pets not getting on the same flight and arriving days later, and pets dying on the flight or from dehydration/etc were some of the concerns I found. Perhaps it is better here in Europe though and perhaps a short flight without any connections would have less risk too.

I guess it depends how you feel about your pet too. For me, Cecil is irreplaceable. It would be like them telling me that my newborn son had to fly in with cargo.  There is no reason for it either, he has a large soft bag and the side unzips to expose a large screened extension (like a canvas pop-up camper). He puts his head in the screened portion and he sleeps where he can see me during the entire flight. I am the one that is uncomfortable and I barely have any room for my feet and after a flight they feel like pins and needles but no other passengers are inconvenienced in the slightest. And for the prices they charge for taking an animal as cargo they should just allow us to buy another seat, it would be cheaper and much safer for the animal to travel in their crate on a window seat next to their owner.


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

If anyone is interested I just read that the 2020 summer ferry service between Madeira and Portimao has been cancelled, it appears the ferry company cancelled the contract due to loss of money on the endeavor  Some members of the local government are talking about trying to establish another ferry service between the island and the mainland, possibly year round, however they don't have anything announced as of yet. So it would appear that air travel is the only way to get a dog on and off the island for now.


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## JohnBoy (Oct 25, 2009)

Sorry to hear that John. I hope that you find another way or maybe Central or northern Portugal maybe beckoning after all!


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

Thanks Colin. Thankfully Northern Portugal is a little easier to reach, we can take 1 train to a ferry that goes to Barcelona and then 1 more train from Barcelona to Vigo, and from there it is only a 25-40 mile bike ride to Portugal. We are looking for a 90 day rental in Spain right on the Portugal border, then after that we can move to the Portugal side of the border for another 90 days (either Northern, Central, or Madeira) before I would need to request residency. If I am not sure after that then we can retreat to France for 90 days and start again in 2021


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## smudges (May 2, 2013)

Well, if you do end up on the mainland, I'd love to come over and meet you both when I've moved too. I'd invite you to me, but my cats might have conniptions - even though I'm positive Cecil would be perfectly well behaved!


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

smudges said:


> Well, if you do end up on the mainland, I'd love to come over and meet you both when I've moved too. I'd invite you to me, but my cats might have conniptions - even though I'm positive Cecil would be perfectly well behaved!


Yes, Cecil is good with cats (he avoids them) but they are not so good with him. We had a feral cat go after him a couple weeks ago while on a walk. It just ran up to us and hissed and swatted it's claws a few inches from him and for no apparent reason. Cecil let out a very different high pitched bark afterward, like "what the heck was that for"? We were both shocked. 

We are planning on visiting for 90 days from early April through early July, however I am hoping to stay in Spain just over the northern border but within bicycle range of Portugal. If we like the north we will probably move to the other side of the border inside Portugal for the next 90 days, otherwise I am not sure where we will go next.


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## smudges (May 2, 2013)

Poor Cecil - I can imagine a question mark emanating from the top of his head! Mine would probably hide, except Trollop can get rather territorial (I gave her responsibility - Guard Cat) and has been known to make out she's going after dogs a lot bigger than her. A local Great Dane always practically tiptoed by the house after a rather interesting encounter.


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

smudges said:


> Poor Cecil - I can imagine a question mark emanating from the top of his head! Mine would probably hide, except Trollop can get rather territorial (I gave her responsibility - Guard Cat) and has been known to make out she's going after dogs a lot bigger than her. A local Great Dane always practically tiptoed by the house after a rather interesting encounter.


When I was a young boy 2 large nasty dogs escaped a neighbor's yard and ran into our backyard. I yelled to my father about the dogs because our small 10lb cat was outside in the yard. As he opened the door we heard one of the dogs yelping, and then both dogs came racing out of the yard (one with a bloody nose) and the cat was chasing them. They ran across the street but she just stopped in our front yard and watched them as they ran away.

When I lived in California I can remember an autistic boy who was viciously attacked by a dog, but his cat pounced on the dog and chased it away, and then she returned to protect the boy.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/n...-saves-boy-vicious-dog-attack-California.html


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## smudges (May 2, 2013)

That's a wonderful video - Guard Cattery personified! Cats are a lot more territorial than most people give them credit for. A sign saying Beware of the Cat might have people rolling in the aisles!


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

Last summer I did volunteer work for several months before moving to Europe. One of my tasks was to catch all the feral cats in a huge 5000sf home (about 40 cats) for relocation. But there was one cat there unlike any other!

It took me several days but I was down to only 3 cats. I even had to rescue 2 that fell into a wall for weeks and were starving. The remaining cats hid in the attic which was full of garbage and clutter, but they would come down during the day to look for (better) food and water. Henry was their leader and he would always come down the stairs first, and they acted like Marines with some sort of 2 deep cover formation and always on high alert status. When Henry got to the bottom of the stairs the second would stand guard in the middle of the stairs and the 3rd at the top of the stairs by the attic. After listening for a while Henry wound go inside the door to the apt, the 2nd would move to the bottom of the stairs, and the 3rd would go to the middle of the stairs. They always moved in sync with each other. Then Henry would wander deeper inside the apt, while the 2nd and 3rd would move down one more position. I was waiting at the bottom of the next flight of stairs, but the 3rd would always wait outside the door. I then decided to run up the stairs to try to lock them inside but the 3rd would set off the alarm and all 3 raced out of the apt and up into the attic to safety.

The next day I put a mirror on the stairs so I could watch them from a much closer position in the lower stairwell. Henry came down the stairs in the lead position and he looked into the mirror and saw me so I stood very still but back up the stairs the team of 3 cats raced. I went downstairs and made some noise like I was leaving and then I went quietly back up the stairs to my position. Henry came back down again about 30 minutes later, but this time as he looked into the mirror I stood perfectly still and I closed my eyes and squinted every so often so I could see a very slight blur of him. Without moving and without being able to see my eyes he watched me for a couple of minutes before they continued their formation movements into the apt. The second and 3rd cats were also looking into the mirror but I kept my eyes closed/squinted. I waited about 2 minutes after the 3rd cat was at the doorway and the other 2 were inside before I leaped up the stairs and pushed the 3rd cat inside the door and locked all 3 cats inside.

I returned later dressed like a North Pole explorer.  It took me 2 hours to drive all 3 cats into the dining room as the house was full of garbage and clutter and hiding places were everywhere. Then I built a wall out of boxes and furniture and at the bottom I put a pressure sensitive trap in an opening so the only way out was through the trap and I closed the back of it to prevent escape. I put food and water inside and then left but Henry and company would eat the food and not set off the trap.  

The next plan was to drive them into the trap. The first 2 were not too difficult but then it was just me and Henry. I finally found his hiding space and I drove him out with a broom, he ran for the exit but he knew it was a trap and then he turned to fight. I had to push him inside with the broom but he would not step on the pressure sensor so I had to poke the broom handle inside the trap and set it off myself. But the door snapped closed and Henry was trapped!

The folks relocating the cats would usually make me wait a day before they would arrange for a pickup, but Henry was a different story. They sent a vehicle immediately, I was told to not leave him alone and to keep watch on him at all times until he was loaded into the vehicle. They told me to not even try to transfer him to a carrier and to secure the trap with zipties to ensure he could not escape. While I watched him in the cage he acted completely differently from the other feral cats, he showed no aggressive behavior and he looked more like an innocent house cat that was trapped by accident. 

King Henry and his court now live on a farm somewhere in NY, probably hunting mice and rats. I pity the rats.


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## smudges (May 2, 2013)

One of the best things I've read for ages! Henry certainly deserves his title - probably King Emperor, the All-Seeing and All-Knowing One. Sounds like an absolute one in a million and certainly a lot more intelligent than most people. May his bloodline live on for ever!


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