# Opinion on Crime Here



## pappabee (Jun 22, 2010)

I know that I’m going to get some flack because of what I’m going to say but many of you know that I need to speak my mind.

Back the first of December there were a few meetings organized by a real estate agent and a few other business people here in Ajijic. A large number of expats attended the meeting and some Mexicans also. They suggested that a program be started called “Boots on the Ground”. This was to put more police visibility on the streets. 

This may sound very good but it just will not work. Let’s say that you want 100 more police on the streets. You take all the patrols out of their vehicles and require them to walk the streets in pairs. Since there are three shifts that would mean 300 police out of their vehicles each day. Not a very safe solution in case of a problem away from their foot patrol area, is it? And, what area are they going to patrol? The areas where most of the crime exists or the areas where the most business are? 

The meetings were in reaction to what was called an increase in crime around the Ajijic area. Well attached is a listing of all crimes reported to the Lake Chapala Crime Watch web site during the month of December. There are three crimes that are not listed there and they are the ones that caused the big stink. Two of them were break-ins where the crooks gained access to the homes through doors or windows that were left open. The other which resulted in death was because the husband and wife had just returned from shopping and had opened the garage door and were in the process of unloading the car when a man ran in and told the husband to give him his wallet. The husband started to resist and was killed. The wallet was found still in his pocket. 

A few concerns come to mind. First of all we have been suggesting to people (along with all law enforcement agencies in the US and Canada) that they take the standard precautions like closing all windows and doors before going to bed or leaving for the evening. And according to the National Sheriff’s Association and Crime Stoppers if you are approached by someone wanting to steal something that you have with you or your car, GIVE IT TO THEM. Whatever it is it’s a lot easier to replace than your life. 

Secondly, why were these crimes not reported on the web site? The site is designed for expats to report crimes to expats. So what happened here? According to the web site there were only 5 assaults during the month of December. During the first week of December there were 54 in the City of Chicago. Where’s our crime wave?? 

IMHO, what is needed to reduce crime in this area is twofold. First the residents must take simple precautions to protect themselves and two the police must make it much less painful to talk to them. I would bet that most of the people who do the crime here are known to some local residents. The problem is that the police both in the past and currently do not make themselves receptive to the locals.


----------



## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

The police are not receptive after the crime because they have no authority at that point. They cannot act unless they see a crime committed, or are called to try and prevent a crime.
Once a crime has been committed, the victim and his interpreter must report the facts, formally, to the Ministerio Publico in Chapala. They are not part of the local police.
It is an entirely different system from what we were accustomed to in other countries.


----------



## pappabee (Jun 22, 2010)

RVGRINGO said:


> The police are not receptive after the crime because they have no authority at that point. They cannot act unless they see a crime committed, or are called to try and prevent a crime.
> Once a crime has been committed, the victim and his interpreter must report the facts, formally, to the Ministerio Publico in Chapala. They are not part of the local police.
> It is an entirely different system from what we were accustomed to in other countries.


I understand much of the difference but my point is that if the locals know anything they are very uncomfortable talking to the police. I have spoken to more than 15 locals and they all said that they don't like talking to the police. Too much bad history.

I went to the Ministerio Publico in Chapala to help a friend report a crime. I waited for over an hour to get to talk to someone and then was told that I had to have someone who could translate what I said into Spanish and the person I was with was not acceptable because they were a witness also. So I came back and had to wait another hour after my appointment before I was able to talk to someone. Then the first 45 minutes was about me, who I was, why was I around the break in area, what I did for a living now and in the past, etc. They only asked three questions about what I saw at the break in. This is not the way to make friends and influence people. To be honest if I was a local Mexican I'd be very uncomfortable having to sit and answer all those questions if I had the least thing to worry about.


----------



## DebMer (Dec 31, 2011)

Sadly, the same is happening in the U.S. There is so much police abuse of citizens here, I wouldn't call them if we had a break in. Thank God our neighborhood is reasonably safe, and we have large dogs, so we don't worry too much about it. But nowadays you read the most ludicrous things. Cops tasering an old woman because she refused to go to the hospital after calling 911 for a medical emergency. Cops citing a guy for some problem at his house after he called them to report a break in. Cops running a guy on a bike down and killing him when he was trying to escape. And beating a gentle homeless schizophrenic to death on the street for absolutely no reason at all. The rising police state is one of the reasons we started thinking about leaving the U.S. Frankly, I'd rather get killed by a drug lord than the government.


----------



## FHBOY (Jun 15, 2010)

I found plenty of "play" on the "crime spree" in November/December here or on another Lakeside blog I frequent, so it wasn't as if we NOB'ers did not know about it. I also solicited comments form ex-pats as to their opinion of what had happened. I am no longer sure on which blog I received some answers but the basic drift was - don't be flashy, don't be dumb about where you go and when, if you are unloading your car, make sure your gates are closed, try not to look like a newbie or a tourist. These seem to be just common sense ideas we would use NOB. When the December crime report for lakeside has 5 incidents as mentioned, I would not see the need for a great panic. In NYC, where I was raised, we used to call it "street smarts" and as a expat New Yawker exiled to Baltimore, the same training I got there goes for here, too. [BTW in 2011, the city of Baltimore, the city only, had 197 murders/homicides, down from 355 in 1993, and they call that a success - I suppose it is.]

As to forming a citizens patrol, that seems to be a strictly American idea, the idea that unarmed people can patrol the streets and somehow make it safer. Yes, they are connected by radio to each other and to local law enforcement, but as was pointed out, the locals, at least at Lakeside from what I read, are not interested in this, not have the manpower and infrastructure to do anything. 

A Citizens Patrol is in existence in the neighborhood next to me, they drive around in cars with a light on top, they also are supposed to have foot patrols, but then Baltimore City Police an County Police are as close as a radio call, and are probably well staffed. Oh, and lastly, they have the support of the residents in the community. Could a group of ex-pats really get the cooperation of the native citizens, their neighbors? Good question: were there non ex-pats at this meeting? As to the realtors, of course they'd like to get some type of patrol, fear cuts into their business, fewer customers, lower prices, but it is not going to work.


In the end, no matter where you go, it is only common sense that can dictate your safety. "Why do you rob banks? Because that's where the money is." You can easily make yourself a target, or become wise on how not to.


----------



## Guest (Jan 3, 2012)

pappabee said:


> I went to the Ministerio Publico in Chapala to help a friend report a crime.


Sorry this is long - but this is what you need to know about following up if you have suffered a property crime, and the perp wasn't caught in the act. Ministerio Publico isn't about making friends, it's about a well-prescribed process.

RVGringo is correct - the police can only act if the perp is caught in the act of a crime, or to prevent a crime. Consider yourself lucky pappabee - when I did this, we waited over 2 1/2 hours before going in to speak with the Procurador, and then spent two more hours talking with him, along with several followup visits. It all depends on how much business they have at the moment. I'm pretty sure that you need make a denuncia within 24 hours following the crime or the discovery of the crime.

*One piece of advice here* ( and yes, I followed this advice): even if you suspect a particular person but did not catch them in the act of doing it *DO NOT CONFRONT THEM AND ACCUSE THEM*, or mouth off to anyone else about "who did this" and naming names. If the prosecution somehow does not proceed, or if you falsely accuse someone and it is later proven that someone else did the act, they can AND WILL sue you for defamation of character. Just shut your mouth, and go to the Ministerio Publico and let them deal with it. Keep your mouth shut until the entire process finishes and a conviction is made.
------------
If the event has already occurred, and the perp is gone, here is the entire procedure I went through in Queretaro state with the PGJ in 2011:

The person offended (the victim) must go to the Ministerio Publico and make a "denuncia". The victim may bring witnesses to also make a statement. Yes, the statements must be in Spanish (or another local MX language if used in that area). If you don't speak Spanish, bring along an upright person who is not somehow involved in the case or an attorney, who is bilingual.

The denuncia is made to a Procurador (prosecutor). The prosecutor is representing the victim and the victim is his/her "ofendido". The first part of the denuncia consists of the victim's information, and yes it does get quite detailed - it's like opening the entire book of your life on the record. The witnesses will do the same, and give their accounts in separate, signed statements to the Procurador.

The victim and any witnesses should bring their passports and visas, or their electoral carnet with them to the Prosecutors office. Under MX law, everyone is equal in the eyes of the law, at least that's what the law says - tourist, resident or citizen.

The following part of the denuncia is the victim's statement of what happened, any ideas about who the possible perp was or could be, and descriptions of any losses. The procurador had no problem with me asking a lot of questions, or giving a great amount of details to him. I didn't wait for him to ask questions, it was more of a long conversation.

If the suspected perp was your employee, bring along copies of your copies of their official ID, home address, telephone numbers, etc. to give to the Procurador.

Following that, the Procurador will print out your statement, ask you to read it, and then sign each and every page. Make sure that your name is spelled correctly and that your address and ID numbers are correct - mistakes happen that can cause problems later. 

At this point, you will not get a copy of your statement. *The Procurador will however give you a one page document which gives basic information, and a File number (it will say at the top: " AVERIGUACION: Office code / the file number / year".* 

*DON'T LOSE THIS DOCUMENT, OR AT LEAST REMEMBER THIS FILE NUMBER AND OFFICE CODE *, because anytime you call or go to their office, you need to know it so they can pull it up in the system. There will also be contact telephone numbers. As you walk out of the office, also note which office you are dealing with - there will be a plaque next to the door going in. In my case, the PGJ has three different local offices dealing with crime, and only one knows what I'm talking about....

Just in case, ask the Procurador for his extension number and his mobile telephone number in case you need to reach him. (don't abuse this by calling them unless it's really important and they will keep answering your calls.) Ask him what his working hours are - in my case, the Procurador works a 24 hour shift every third day. He also frequently attends PGJ courses so he is effectively only in his office every third day from 8am-9am, and then again from 6pm or 8 pm until the following morning at 8 am.
-----------
The next day, or several days later, a "perrito" will visit. This is the forensic investigator. Ask for their ID before allowing them to enter your home or business. In the case of a burglary, the perrito will examine the entry doors, windows and locks for evidence of damage or tampering, the inside of the house, the outside of the house, the affected areas, take photographs, and may or may not check for fingerprints or other types of evidence depending on their judgement.
------------
Following the perrito's visit, the next day or a few days later the police detectives will come to speak with you. Ask for their ID before allowing them to enter your home or business. They will be more concerned about the losses, and will ask more questions about your ideas about who the perp may be, etc. They need information about the crime and are looking for leads. They may talk to your neighbors to see if they saw or know anything.
-----------
If the police detectives pin down a perp, they will question them. If they recover any of the stolen goods from the suspect, they will then take their fingerprints, take their photographs, copy their ID, and get their addresses for home and work. The police will then take the suspected perp to the Procurador for that person to give their own statement to the Procurador. 

He will then print their statement out, ask the suspect to review it and to sign each page of their statement. No, you will not be present when the suspect gives their statement. *The suspect WILL NOT be arrested at this point* if they have not been caught in the act or even if some of the allegedly stolen goods were found on their person or their premises.

You will probably also have to furnish proof of ownership of what you claim was stolen. This can happen in the days following your initial visit for your denuncia. Original invoices or receipts are best, but copies will serve. In the absence of receipts, two other persons must provide a statement attesting that yes, they know that you did have those items in your possession. You will need to show the original receipts to the Procurador and also give him 4 copies of each receipt or statement.
-------------
If the police detectives did recover any or all of your goods, once the perritos finish their work, you may be able to get your recovered stuff back. You will need to again present the original proof of ownership, AND 4 COPIES of each receipt for the goods recovered, and your ID documents, and the perritos may be able to release your goods to you. If so, you will need to sign another letter from the Procurador's office stating that you have received the goods listed in that letter into your possession. (read the letter to make sure it's correct and that all numbers match - mistakes happen.)
--------------
Following this, if you present a letter asking for a CERTIFIED copy of all documents related to your file number, you can get the copies. In my case, the admin assistant made a second set of all documents, went through an excruciating process of signing, stamping and making all kinds of marks on each page, numbering by hand each page, and then binding them together. 

She then gave these copies to me and told me to go to an outside copy shop and get a copy of each page and bring all copies back. When you come back with her original copies, and your copies, she will then go through the same process of signing and stamping both sides of each page of your copies, and wallah! you have your own set of all of the documents.
----------
After all of these steps are completed, the procurador must analyze them and decide what criminal charges to pursue. In Mexico, if the Procurador decides to pursue it as a serious crime (this can be based upon the value of the goods stolen, or the gravity of any related crimes) they have to be very careful. If they fail to prove their case for a serious crime charge to a judge, the Procurador can be jailed for the same sentence as a conviction would have given an unproven defendant. (twisted).

Once the Procurador is ready, he presents his documents and case to a judge. If the judge agrees, the judge issues an Orden de Aprensión (an Arrest Warrant) which the police detectives then carry out. The charged suspect is taken to jail, where they may or may not be able to post bail until the trial.
------------
If convicted, the person will also receive a restitution order. An attorney advised me that restitution may take 3 or 4 years to receive, if the victim ever does receive it. If a convicted person tries to retitle property, etc in order to avoid restitution to the victim, they can then be charged with fraud.

Should you remember other things later, you can go back to the Procurador and make an addendum statement. I was also told by their personnel that yes, sometimes files get lost or go missing. Get your certified copies when you are able to do so to avoid a future problem, or for use in any related civil lawsuits which are separate from the criminal action.

Hopefully, this long post may help someone else understand the process should they need to do so.


----------



## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

I took the liberty of copying the last post to a new thread (Reporting a Crime in Mexico) and making it sticky, so it appears near the top of the list of threads. It seems like useful information to keep handy. Thanks, GringoCarlos.


----------



## JoParsons (Jun 25, 2011)

In Uruapan, I get one english-speaking news channel . . . it's from Texas. If's not the weather, or sports, it's about crime. There's a lot to be said for living on the same street as the federal courthouse I guess. Lots of police presence and no crime that I can see. But then, I don't go looking for it either.


----------



## maesonna (Jun 10, 2008)

You have done us an excellent service with your detailed post, Carlos. May I just add one small correction which may seem trivial to English speakers but is rather important in Spanish. The forensic investigator isn’t a _perrito_ (doggie) but a _perito_ (expert).


----------



## tepetapan (Sep 30, 2010)

My opinoin on crime is it is about the same, both being comitted and investigated, as the USA. In fact, my opinoin is that crime here in Mexico is much less than most (many?) areas of the USA and that some (many, more than a few?) posters are just bored enough to write to a forum to complain where as when they worked for a living (NOB) they did not care or were not intrested or just did not have the time. 
My opinoin is that the OP and other posters who feel this is such an important subject, go back and read your hometown newspaper. Postings like this, in my opinoin, are a sign of being bored and needing a hobby. 
The whole differance reporting here (in Mexico) is that YOU probably do not speak spanish, can not communicate to the police who, by the way, are about as intrested as any police official in Chicago, NY, or LA., in a crime that was commited in the past to someone other than yourself.


----------



## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

tepetapan said:


> My opinoin on crime is it is about the same, both being comitted and investigated, as the USA. In fact, my opinoin is that crime here in Mexico is much less than most (many?) areas of the USA and that some (many, more than a few?) posters are just bored enough to write to a forum to complain where as when they worked for a living (NOB) they did not care or were not intrested or just did not have the time.
> My opinoin is that the OP and other posters who feel this is such an important subject, go back and read your hometown newspaper. Postings like this, in my opinoin, are a sign of being bored and needing a hobby.
> The whole differance reporting here (in Mexico) is that YOU probably do not speak spanish, can not communicate to the police who, by the way, are about as intrested as any police official in Chicago, NY, or LA., in a crime that was commited in the past to someone other than yourself.


I feel your non committed investigation into Mexican violent crime done by sometimes very large criminal organizations and comparing the US violent crime done by individuals generally for various reasons is denial of the facts. Terroristic gangs gunning down innocent citizens on 3 seperate buses on the highway in daylight just hours apart {15 dead} in Veracruz last month to you compares to the US violent crime stats? Taking over the main plaza at Patzcuaro last year on a weekend for a 1/2 day is normal for you in the US? You may be bored with us living down here yaking away but that is not what causes apathy, in my opinion, denial of facts does in this case.


----------



## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

*Video camera evidence*



RVGRINGO said:


> The police are not receptive after the crime because they have no authority at that point. They cannot act unless they see a crime committed, or are called to try and prevent a crime.
> Once a crime has been committed, the victim and his interpreter must report the facts, formally, to the Ministerio Publico in Chapala. They are not part of the local police.
> It is an entirely different system from what we were accustomed to in other countries.


My buddy in Mexicali told me he read in the Mexicali newspaper the state judisuary was talking about not allowing video camera evidence in court there anymore, but didn´t follow up to see what happened. It was about robberies at OXXOs were people are getting money out of the inside ATM there and getting mugged outside. Now this just shows there are economic conciderations as to how much time and money is available in some states to motivate public servants to follow the rules and even change them for thier own convience.


----------



## FHBOY (Jun 15, 2010)

*Respectful Rebuttal*

Tepetapan's view while not too complimentary to some expats, can hold some truth. But the truth that he holds is that perhaps we NOB are just so used to crime that it doesn't get our attention any longer. No matter where crime occurs, that is pathetic. Have we become so inured to it NOB that we just don't get riled up enough the discuss it (verbally or on forums)? Likewise, when unusual crimes do occur, [and NOB they have be more horrific that a person being robbed and killed (as happened in Ajijic)], they do seem to get some attention. Perhaps since crime in that area, violent crime, is so rare (five incidents in a year), it becomes a topic of discussion.

Does it have to do with boredom as he asserts? I do not think so. I cannot believe that expats in Mexico have nothing better to do than "gossip" about crime. On this forum, maybe it gets more play because we discuss almost anything that interests us, but I don't believe it comes up to the level of an obsession, as he seems to imply.

What if the daily muggings, murders, robberies and assaults all got play like these incident at Lakeside, NOB? When would we ever have time to give "play" to anything else. My city has seen 8 murders since January 1, 197 for the year of 2011 - if everybody "played" it up as much, we'd have a ghost town.


----------



## Guest (Jan 20, 2012)

Regarding vehicle safety in MX, I ran across this in a security blog from Andrews International about MX. Here is the link to their website:
Specialized Training, leader in professional training for the security professional - Andrews International

Their advice appears in a discussion about armored vehicles, but for others I thought it might be of interest in considering what type of vehicle to use here in MX. 

Quote:
*Colors to avoid:* White, red, yellow, black, dark blue. 

White is a favorite color vehicle to steal because it’s easy to cover the original paint. Red and yellow are too attention-getting and might be considered “attractive nuisances” that invite theft or robbery. Black and dark blue should be avoided because these vehicles are often preferred and used by organized crime and freelance criminals. 

*Makes and Models to Avoid:* Chevy Suburban, GMC Denali, Ford Expedition, Lincoln Navigator, Cadillac Escalade, Toyota Land Cruiser, BMW X5 and Nissan Pathfinder. 

These vehicles are favorite targets for carjackings, especially in rural parts of the country and along the northern border with the U.S. In the latter areas, large pick-up trucks of any make and model should also be avoided.

End of Quote

Much of this seems like common sense to most, but maybe not. As for me, I'll stick to locking the door with windows up in my taxis and taking autobuses. Experiences, anyone?

Be safe out there.


----------



## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

backgroundchecker said:


> [Text deleted]


I have no idea what you are talking about.


----------



## pappabee (Jun 22, 2010)

TundraGreen said:


> I have no idea what you are talking about.


Somethings wrong with this guy. He isn't in Mexico and of his 5 posts only one is in Mexico the rest are all over the place. He also joined Jan. 2012


----------



## circle110 (Jul 20, 2009)

It's an add for his service - look at his user name. He no doubt sells background checks.


----------



## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

circle110 said:


> It's an add for his service - look at his user name. He no doubt sells background checks.


You are probably right.


----------



## circle110 (Jul 20, 2009)

Probably...
Ah, but let's not hijack this otherwise worthy thread!

More back on topic...

I had a meeting today with the director of the Teatro Juarez, the beautiful theater right in the center of Guanajuato. Also attending was a university of Gto. music professor, the director of a well known music group. We were talking about touring opportunities here in central Mexico and the professor stated that he was scared to death to drive outside of the Guanajuato/Leon/San Miguel area for fear of highway assault.

I was a little surprised. I drive all over central Mexico plus make regular trips in car back to the US and I feel no major threat. But here are highly successful Mexicans living scared, basically trapped in their home towns by fear. It's killing this man's professional career.

Am I nuts to brazenly drive all over (on cuota roads) or is it he who is nuts to live in paranoia?
Maybe a little of both? I wish I knew....


----------



## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

circle110 said:


> Probably...
> Ah, but let's not hijack this otherwise worthy thread!
> 
> More back on topic...
> ...


I suppose it depends on your level of risk tolerance. I take the buses all over the country. Last year I made three round trips through Sinaloa and Sonora and one through Chihuahua and Ciudad Juarez, plus a bunch of other places in Mexico. The buses were generally full so I am clearly not the only one feeling that it was okay (although I was the only non-Mexican, but that is a comment on who takes buses not on safety). I have also hitch-hiked in rural areas in multiple states (Chiapas, Michoacan, Baja Sur, Chihuahua). I could stay home and avoid all the risk, but then the ceiling might fall on me. Some of the boveda ceilings in my house have so little arch to them that I can't see what holds them up. No one lives forever.


----------



## circle110 (Jul 20, 2009)

Likewise, the roads are chock full of cars who must feel it's OK as well.

I haven't had any incidents while driving all over Mexico to cause me any fear. I only start to worry when I see others so worried, which is probably foolish on my part. I still say that I fear the wacky drivers more than I fear some kind of highway assault.

How much of this can we blame on the Mexican media that hypes the violence probably even more than the US media?


----------



## conklinwh (Dec 19, 2009)

No doubt the violence is real and probably more risky for well off Mexicans where kidnapping more likely. We have friend here that is pretty fatalistic in that he expects that the odds of getting killed by a truck driver are far higher than a cartel. BTW, expect this true in the US as well where believe some 40K+ people a year are killed on the highways.
I think that we are all sort of doing a balancing act with our psyche between recognizing that there are always risks and our interest in staying. This a very personal thing and I wouldn't begrudge either side of the stay/leave discussion. If you aren't comfortable, no amount of outside info will make you so and you should leave or not come.


----------



## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

Fear is just as contagious as laughter; maybe more so. On the websites, it tends toward hysteria; especially among those who don't live in Mexico or have never visited more than tourist resorts on the coasts.
Meanwhile, the rest of us go about our lives, driving, walking and vacationing throughout Mexico and watching the news of truly random violence in the USA, a place we haven't visited in many years.


----------



## PieGrande (Nov 16, 2008)

The newspapers in Mexico are far more likely to ignore crime than sensationalize it. In November, in our small village in the mountains, a gang of kidnappers kidnapped a young man. He was a taxi driver, and either didn't own his taxi or was paying for it on time. the thugs, some of which lived in our village, called his parents, demanding 140,000 USD. They didn't have it, of course, so they then demanded $40,000 USD.

They also didn't have it, so they called the cops. The thug cell phone number appeared on caller i.d.. They checked with Telmex, who traced the calls by cell towers hit by the cell phone.

they nabbed them. They confessed to having kidnapped 30 people from small towns, and killed 10 of them who couldn't pay. None of these details made the newspapers. The only reason I knew is because my best friend is retired "county medical examiner" (not what they call it here) and law enforcement told him about it.

Pretty much all they said was they kidnapped it, and they were chased and arrested. No mention of many kidnappings.

some of the drug gangs have killed journalists for writing about them, so it is not just lazy journalists who don't write much.

By the way, my friend said those guys will get life in prison, now mandatory for those who kill during kidnappings. One was only 28 years old, and he lived up the street from my friend.


----------

