# ER visa challenges



## pablock007

I hope to find and share story/strategies with other US citizens who have experienced or are experiencing challenges getting ER visa approved. My current US residence is NY State. Please reply regardless of US state residence, thanks.


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## panama rick

Hi pablock007, I will relay what happened to us 2 1/2 years ago. We wanted to apply for an ER visa and began satisfying all requirements. Our consulate was Miami, but I believe they all follow the basic requirements. We gathered all our documents, and even secured housing. The one very important thing I could never find was how much income they wanted to see. It leaves them an "out". Anyway we could to the consulate presented our package and within 10 minutes were out the door with a rejection. They wanted to see $8000/mo. substantiated income (fixed retirement/annuity, etc.). Forget "passive income". When I returned home I sent emails to the Italian consulates in New York and Houston phishing for info. They both replied with different numbers ($7000 & $6000). The only other option is to have money in the bank. In Miami's case they told us if we had a $1,000,000 they would consider us. So we're taking a different route and applying for citizenship. Best of luck. Panama Rick


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## Italia-Mx

The following may or may not have something to do with the rejection of your visa due to not meeting the financial requirement of $8,000 substantiated, fixed income, which is way over the substantiated,fixed income of most citizens in Italy:

As an Italian citizen, living in Italy for 15 years, every time I use the national health facilities, I see more and more non-EU, economic migrants being given totally free medical care in the same facilities. Most of these non-EU, economic migrants are from SAFE countries in Sub-Sahara Africa and have crossed the Mediterranean from Libya to take advantage of free benefits including food, housing, and medical care, and having been able to do so since Khadafi was removed in 2011. 

So if you're looking for a reason as to why the Italian consulates are exercising an "out" when visa candidates were previously approved with much less than the income quoted you by Miami, you might want to consider the actions taken by Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton in Libya as they are responsible for the big mess that Italy is currently dealing with.


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## accbgb

The number which has been going around for several years now is about €35,000 guaranteed income per year per person.

It _does_ seem very high especially considering the typical average Italian annual income. However, the point seems to be that Italy is happy to take you in if you are going to provide a meaningful boost to her economy; if not, then what would be the point of allowing you to stay? Cultural diversity? I think you will find that most Europeans have had more than their fill of cultural diversity.


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## panama rick

Dear Italia-mix,
I'm not sure why you want to turn this into a political discussion. Italy is in the minority of EU countries who don't specify what they consider adequate income. You are correct that the amount quoted to me is way over substantiated income of the average Italian citizen. But that number was quoted to me by an Italian government employee, and I'm assuming set by the Italian government. I'm sorry you have an axe to grind with the US government, but I'm not sure about the relevancy of your statements.


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## Italia-Mx

Since you're in France, I can understand why you're not sure of the relevancy of my statements about what's going on in Italy. However, I'm completely sure because I live here.


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## panama rick

First, I don't live in France. I reside in Panama. Second, my complaint is not the threshold amount established by the Italian government, but the fact that they don't publish it. I lost lost several thousand dollars securing the requirements outlined by the government. If I had known what the financial burden was, I wouldn't have applied. So to me when they say "adequate income", it's an arbitrary moving target.


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## Italia-Mx

You made a very valid point about the income figure not being public info. In fact, before my companion had his Italian citizenship recognized, he also inquired about a visa and mentioned that he had more than adequate income to which the consular officer replied, "I don't care if you're Bill Gates". However, the change in attitude and hospitality my companion received from the same officer on the day he went to apply for his Italian passport after being recognized was dramatic. And I do mean dramatic. He just couldn't have been more gracious to both of us. And he also told us that his vice consulate had processed more than 100 new passports during the previous month.


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## panama rick

That's what I find fascinating and puzzling. My wife is waiting for the results of her citizenship request from the courts. The attorney handling the case made no request for income or criminal background. So theoretically you could be a destitute felon, but as long as you have unbroken lineage you can become a citizen. Don't get me wrong we'll take citizenship if granted, but I just don't get it.


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## accbgb

panama rick said:


> That's what I find fascinating and puzzling. My wife is waiting for the results of her citizenship request from the courts. The attorney handling the case made no request for income or criminal background. _*So theoretically you could be a destitute felon, but as long as you have unbroken lineage you can become a citizen. *_Don't get me wrong we'll take citizenship if granted, but I just don't get it.


That's correct. And the reason is that if you have that unbroken lineage then you are not "requesting" citizenship but simply proving a fact that always existed, since the moment of your birth. What you may or may not have done (criminal acts, etc.) since the time you were born has no bearing on the fact that you _were_ born an Italian citizen.

Having said that, some 10'ish years ago, there was a citizenship officer working at the Chicago (or, was it Detroit?) Italian consulate who was (openly) very much against this concept of granting citizenship to anyone who could prove lineage, even if it was two, three, or four generations removed from Italy. He was very difficult to work with and would sit on files for years without action of any sort.


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## panama rick

That's unfortunate. That same problem exists within the US government as has been exhibited in certain, very recent cases.


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## Bevdeforges

panama rick said:


> Italy is in the minority of EU countries who don't specify what they consider adequate income.


Actually, I've found that many EU countries specifically don't publish the "minimum income" figures they require for visas. It's precisely because they want to be able to exercise a level of "discretion" in granting long stay visas, based on the intentions of the applicant.
Cheers,
Bev


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## bellaamalfi

If I may piggyback on this post (Panama Rick - you have provided much enlightenment on the subject), I have researched ad nauseam and the general consensus seems to be that we must have a passive income of around $35k or $35 Euros or $1 mil in the bank. If we do not have passive income but only intend for our family of 4 to live in Italy for one year (with no employment or student visa/and not applying for the 13 month plus ER), does anyone know if having $400k in the bank would suffice? Our local honorary consul general suggested an immigration attorney but I would love to hear from those who have conquered this feat! We definitely don't want to sell our house with 2 kids under 2 with the hopes that we may be approved. Thanks in advance!


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## panama rick

bellaamalfi, may I suggest attorney Luigi Paiano (Bologna). He's our attorney working on our citizenship. He's got a great track record and is very responsive. If you Google him, you'll find what you need. I truly wish you the best. That's a tough position to be in.


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## BBCWatcher

bellaamalfi said:


> If we do not have passive income but only intend for our family of 4 to live in Italy for one year (with no employment or student visa/and not applying for the 13 month plus ER), does anyone know if having $400k in the bank would suffice?


That's unlikely for an ER visa. An ER visa is for a minimum residence intention of over one year, so I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to draw between a 12 month plus one minute ER visa and a 13 month ER visa. A consulate wouldn't draw a distinction. Even if you're drawing down $400,000 at an investment-aggressive 5% rate that's only $20,000 per year.

A student visa would be the only reasonably viable option in your circumstances. It's hard for me to imagine an Italian consulate granting four ER visas (or even one) to a family of four with a total net worth of US$400K. You can't work, you aren't investing in human capital (university degree), and you're certainly not set for life, so..."huh?"


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## bellaamalfi

Panama Rick, Thank you for the referral. I will reach out to Luigi.


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## bellaamalfi

BBCWatcher,
Thank you for your prompt response. I apologize for the confusion as I'm not familiar with the visa parlance. I was under the understanding that one needed to sign a 13 month lease to establish residency vs. 12 months or less. My family of 4 is looking to move to Italy for one year. Our liquidity (not net worth) is $400k. Do you think that is sufficient or can you recommend an immigration attorney? Thanks again for your insight!


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## BBCWatcher

bellaamalfi said:


> I was under the understanding that one needed to sign a 13 month lease to establish residency vs. 12 months or less.


One must demonstrate the intention to reside in Italy for more than one year to the satisfaction of the consulate. A lease longer than 12 months is ordinarily helpful in demonstrating that intention.



> Our liquidity (not net worth) is $400k.


The consulate will also care about your net worth -- or at least a much higher net worth would help your cause.



> Do you think that is sufficient or can you recommend an immigration attorney?


An immigration attorney will reduce your (liquid) net worth, so that's not helpful. How do you imagine that an immigration attorney will assist you in an administrative process at a consulate, with the consulate having absolute discretion in their decision? The only ways I can imagine that an immigration attorney can help you is if you're struggling to fill out the visa application form or if you don't know how to act reasonably professionally at an interview. However, immigration attorneys are not the only individuals who can help you in those two respects.

This is not a judicial process, and it is not subject to judicial review -- or, at least, it's extremely unlikely to be. It's not often that a consular officer assaults an applicant, for example.


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## BBCWatcher

As a follow-up, I can imagine some other people being helpful. Reading about past applicants and their experiences is likely helpful, and you're already doing that. You could also check whether your consulate has an honorary consul nearby and ask him/her for advice.


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## Bevdeforges

If you are only interested in spending one year in Italy, it may raise some alarm bells with the consulate if you are planning on selling your house. Generally speaking, if you're planning on being abroad just for a year, and then returning back home, it's more likely you'd rent out the house while you're gone so you'd have some place to return to.

I might also warn you against using an immigration attorney. It can work against you unless you have some unusual situation you need to work around (jail time, prior immigration problems, other sorts of questions or legal difficulties in your background). Approaching the immigration process "all lawyered up" can raise suspicions on the part of the immigration authorities.

Visas are not automatically granted just because you meet all the requirements mentioned on the consulate website. The authorities have the ability to weigh up and evaluate the sum total of your dossier. Not sure about Italy, but for France an often overlooked question on the forms involves why you want to come to live in France. The reason you give can influence how all your other documents and qualifications are evaluated. The simplest example of this is if you are applying for a visa where you are not allowed to work, If your financial resources are thin, it will most likely be assumed that you'll be tempted to work "under the table" at some point to make ends meet. Or, as mentioned, if you claim to be coming to Italy for "just one year" but you've sold off your house back home, you leave reasonable doubt of your sincerity about going back home after a year.

Just try and think like an immigration official. (It's also cheaper than hiring an attorney to do pretty much the same thing for you.)
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher

If you're interested in spending 13 months in Italy then, in lieu of a home sale, you could submit evidence of an impending, agreed rental lease of your home for that period of time. That rental income also could factor into the income assessment.


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## bellaamalfi

BBC Watcher and Bev,
This is very helpful. Thank you! This is exactly why I love this forum.
The reasoning behind the one year end date was in hopes that the immigration officer would see we have enough to live and have no intention of living off the state. The idea to use an immigration attorney was to provide insight into exactly what we would need to be approved as I was thinking he would have experience with other families going through this process. Good point about getting the same information from others who are going through or have gone through this process.
The reasoning behind selling our home is we can make a significant profit in the market for our area right now and we don't foresee that being the result of selling in a year or two from now. Additionally, we thought it would help our cause to show more money in the bank.
Great point about lawyering up, Bev. We don't want to look like we are doing that. Thanks for that tip.
We are interested in moving to Italy to immerse ourselves and our children in the beautiful country, the people, learn the language and explore creative avenues for my husband and myself (writing, painting, etc.) and taking a long break from the fast paced corporate world. I actually lived in Florence for under the 90 days a few years ago and have always wanted to return with my future family. I am sure this is why many people want to move there and I can imagine it is not what an immigration official considers a good enough reason.
So, where does this leave us? It sounds as if we don't have a shot and would have to wait a few years to have the cash or passive income to make the move. Do you all have any other suggestions other than staying less than the 90 days or is our dream a lost cause for the next few years?


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## bellaamalfi

Additionally, when it comes to finances, do you think consideration is given for assets in retirement accounts even if we are well before retirement age?


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## accbgb

Bellaamalfi,

Let me make this point as clearly as I can: every indication we have seen in the past is that Italy does not issue ER (read it: Elective Residency) visas as a workaround for folks who are simply looking for an extended tourist experience. You *must* give every indication that your intent is to remain in Italy "forever" or the ER visa is likely to be declined. No - Italy cannot force you to stay there and you would certainly be free to leave whenever you wish, but it is the stated intent that matters.

If you say, "I know we only have $400,000 liquid assets, but we don't plan to stay in Italy for more than 12 or 13 months anyway and surely that is more than enough..." it will probably backfire on you.


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## BBCWatcher

I'm going to disagree a little with Bev on this one. The ER visa is a different beast than "normal" visas. You really need to demonstrate a serious intention to reside in Italy over more than an extended vacation time scale. Selling your home is consistent with such an intention. If the consulate (and later on commune) wants to limit your stay they still can. Yes, this is "backwards" from most visas.

If this is a good time to sell your home, and you want to sell your home, I see no problem with that. However, you must be prepared for the possibility that your ER visa is denied. Yes, this is awkward -- stipulated. It's less awkward for individuals and families of significant means, which is rather the point.



bellaamalfi said:


> Additionally, when it comes to finances, do you think consideration is given for assets in retirement accounts even if we are well before retirement age?


Yes, although the consulate is certainly free to take into account taxes due and any penalties for early withdrawal -- penalties which would be foolish to incur if possibly avoidable. In other words, although the consulate might take those funds into account -- Italy is quite happy to have you support the Italian economy -- it doesn't mean you should rely on those funds. Said yet another way, if you have to depend on that particular nest egg then is this whole endeavor a good idea?


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## panama rick

accbgb & BBC are spot on. When we applied for an ER it was our intent to retire there. No one can give you definitive answers. You need to take all the info you're getting and sit down say to yourself if we do this (sell the house, etc) and are not successful, then what? Are you trying to put a square peg in a round hole? Only you have that answer. Best of luck.


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## Bevdeforges

Just a question here: does this ER visa allow you to work in Italy? That's usually the critical thing, because if it's used for someone moving to retire, that's one thing. But to move over pre-retirement, the immigration folks are generally looking to see what the chances are you'll need to find work to remain. 

If you say you're coming for a year, and have enough savings or other sources of income to fund a one-year stay, then that's fine. But if you're looking to remain and have basically enough for a single year, that implies you're going to have to find some sort of job. And if the visa won't allow you to work, that causes problems.
Cheers,
Bev


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## accbgb

Bevdeforges said:


> Just a question here: does this ER visa allow you to work in Italy? That's usually the critical thing, because if it's used for someone moving to retire, that's one thing. But to move over pre-retirement, the immigration folks are generally looking to see what the chances are you'll need to find work to remain.
> 
> If you say you're coming for a year, and have enough savings or other sources of income to fund a one-year stay, then that's fine. But if you're looking to remain and have basically enough for a single year, that implies you're going to have to find some sort of job. And if the visa won't allow you to work, that causes problems.
> Cheers,
> Bev



In short, no. ER visas do not permit work.


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## pablock007

Thanks Bev. I believe your thoughts are 100% on point. Please can you help describe the "best intentions" a Consulate officer may be looking for. My large and substantive portfolio generates more than the annual income requirement, yet still they rejected my ER visa app 2x, digging into numbers on financial statements saying a portion of the income was generated by the wrong kind of account (non-retirement.) Please I also would love guidance about what to include in my letter of intention about wanting to move to Italy. Of course, it's the beauty, culture, climate, and pace which I'm attracted to. I purchased this house in Tuscany (cash buy) because I want to live humbly in this gracious Tuscan community, finish writing and publish my book  Should I mention potentially buying more property? What can I say, and how, to clearly articulate my desire to contribute to the local economy while living here? Thanks in advance for any suggestions! PS - yes I want to live and stay forever in my Italian villa!


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## accbgb

pablock007 said:


> Thanks Bev. I believe your thoughts are 100% on point. Please can you help describe the "best intentions" a Consulate officer may be looking for. My large and substantive portfolio generates more than the annual income requirement, yet still they rejected my ER visa app 2x, digging into numbers on financial statements saying a portion of the income was generated by the wrong kind of account (non-retirement.) Please I also would love guidance about what to include in my letter of intention about wanting to move to Italy. Of course, it's the beauty, culture, climate, and pace which I'm attracted to. I purchased this house in Tuscany (cash buy) because I want to live humbly in this gracious Tuscan community, *finish writing and publish my book * Should I mention potentially buying more property? What can I say, and how, to clearly articulate my desire to contribute to the local economy while living here? Thanks in advance for any suggestions! PS - yes I want to live and stay forever in my Italian villa!


Aack! Be very careful!

Writing a personal journal is one thing; writing a book for publication is entirely different. You run the great risk that the consulate will classify this as "work" - something which you are not permitted to do under an ER visa.


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## pablock007

Got it, thank you!! Btw, years from finishing and publishing so...may never see light of day.


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## pablock007

Bev, per my other question, can you please advise any other special thing to include in my letter of intention for ER visa? Thank you!


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## Bevdeforges

The main thing in your letter of intention is to be absolutely sincere. They can basically sense it if you're saying "what they want to hear" so the more upfront and honest you can be with them, the better off you are.
Cheers,
Bev


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## bellaamalfi

Wow, Pablock! What a tough place to be in. I'm sorry you're not able to be living in your fabulous villa in Tuscany as we speak. Great questions and I look forward to hearing responses.

Thanks everyone for your responses as well. We would not intend to withdraw from our retirement but if an extra 200k could in fact be available, I was wondering if they would take that into account. We do not intend to work so my thoughts were to apply for the ER Visa. Does anyone have another visa suggestion? Perhaps Padlock needs to apply for a different type as well??

Can anyone explain why the visa form (for the Miami Consulate), lists length of stay from 91-365 days?

http://www.consmiami.esteri.it/NR/r...484E9F53B95D/0/Formulario_nazionale_visti.pdf


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## Bevdeforges

bellaamalfi said:


> Can anyone explain why the visa form (for the Miami Consulate), lists length of stay from 91-365 days?
> 
> http://www.consmiami.esteri.it/NR/r...484E9F53B95D/0/Formulario_nazionale_visti.pdf


Because a "short-stay" visa is good for up to 90 days. Anything over 90 days is a "long-stay" visa. And a visa gives you the right to enter the country. It's the residence permit that allows you to stay. After the first 365 days, you're actually renewing your residence permit, although most folks refer to it as "renewing their visa."
Cheers,
Bev


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## accbgb

Your visa options are quite limited. Refer to this official website and keep in mind that work visas are nearly impossible to obtain except in very special circumstances: Il visto per l'Italia


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## bellaamalfi

Thanks, Bev. That makes sense on the length of stay.
Acc, thank you for the website. That is actually how I came to decide on our thoughts to obtain an ER visa . I was just making sure I wasn't missing another option.


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## accbgb

bellaamalfi said:


> Thanks, Bev. That makes sense on the length of stay.
> Acc, thank you for the website. That is actually how I came to decide on our thoughts to obtain an ER visa . I was just making sure I wasn't missing another option.


It's not easy; Italy does not offer much in between the 90 day tourist visa waiver and the "move there for life" ER visa.

Some people try for an education visa, but there are two major problems with that: 1) it requires registration in a university-level course(s) and, 2) the visa is only for the student - you don't get to drag family members along (with the possible exception of a single parent bringing along one or more minor children).


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## pablock007

Wise advice, Bev. Thank you!
Best,
Patty


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## pablock007

Dear Bellaamalfi, thanks for your kind words. And a sincere thanks to everyone posting on this forum, particularly Bevdeforges! The stories, lessons learned and advice are invaluable. Grazie!


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## bellaamalfi

On another note, if my husband were to transfer within his company (they have offices in Italy), would it be easier to obtain a work visa vs. an ER? From what I understand from researching, it is difficult to obtain a work visa when looking for a job in Italy but if there is already a position available then perhaps it wouldn't be as difficult?
Also, if he decides to quit while we are there, how does that effect our visa? How long are we entitled to stay before he finds another source of employment?


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## BBCWatcher

bellaamalfi said:


> On another note, if my husband were to transfer within his company (they have offices in Italy), would it be easier to obtain a work visa vs. an ER?


You (the trailing spouse) end up with a _permesso di soggiorno per motivi familiari_, and that type of residence permit does allow work. If you can find work, of course.

Note that your residence permit would be subordinate to his. When his status ends, so does yours, even if you're in a job you want to keep (you can't).



> Also, if he decides to quit while we are there, how does that effect our visa?


Visas are for entry. I think you're asking what happens to your residence permits. Answer: they end, even before the expiration dates marked on them. (The expiration dates indicate their maximum durations, not their minimum.) When the prerequisites for your residence permits no longer apply you become tourists, subject to your normal 90 day short stay limit. So you have 90 days to get out of the Schengen Area.

The implication of your question is that your husband can use his employer to get into Italy (answer: rare, but maybe) then, soon after, hop to another job without leaving Italy. That second part probably doesn't work even if he's quite lucky with the first part. Employment visas are _extremely_ rare, and they tend to be both profession-based and employer-based. If lighting strikes once, it doesn't mean it'll strike again -- much less strike again within 90 days.

If you're going to attempt this then the better option, if possible, would be to stay with that employer (if he's so extremely lucky) for at least 3 years and for at least one of you to apply to acquire Italian citizenship. (Apply after 2 years of continuous legal residence, and take the oath after 3.) This path assumes that at least one of you has a parent or grandparent who was born an Italian citizen or could have been recognized as such. Failing that, if you hang on for a minimum of 5 years then you can apply for an EC Long Term Residence Permit and, once that's in hand, job hop (if you can) or even country hop to any EU/EEA country except the United Kingdom, Ireland, and Denmark. But note that an EC Long Term Residence Permit doesn't allow you to remain while financially poor. Also bear in mind that citizenship is national in scope, so if you hop to another country you restart your naturalization "clock." Italy requires 10 years of continuous legal residence in order to qualify for naturalization, with the exception noted earlier in this paragraph.

Anticipating another question, as far as I know you cannot change status to Elective Residence from within Italy. The EC Long Term Residence Permit can be the functional equivalent if you're legitimately retired (and not financially poor) -- and you can still work part-time, for example, to be semi-retired. That permit is more flexible than ER. Of course citizenship is even better. Yes, it is possible to get an EC Long Term Residence Permit after 5 years of continuous legal residence as an ER.


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## Vito98103

*Elective Residency Visa*

This was posted several days ago on another expat forum (don't see it duplicated here):

After nine years of planning, working with friends and realtors in Vicenza, purchased flight tickets, arrangement for transportation of household goods shipment and veterinary and travel arrangements for family cat, the dreams of my wife and I have been shot down in flames by a bureaucrat at the Italian Consulate of Philadelphia. Our Elective Residency Visa was denied. My wife and I are newly retired with combined pension incomes of $60,000 per year with survivorship clauses; Signora XXX declared we must have no less than $120,000 per year in income "or investments" in order to qualify for Elective Residency Visas. This feels like an arbitrary "Unwelcome Sign" since it just happens to be double what we make in pension incomes. We're devastated and have no idea whether it's worth the trouble of trying to do this again or even how to go about appealing this capricious move. Note: We were completely organized in our application, with everything accounted for and apparently everything OK except for the fact that we aren't rich movie stars. I would appreciate any insights from others on this page. I had previously heard there were problematic Italian Consulates, with Miami and San Francisco topping the list; but hadn't expected this behavior from the Philadelphia Consulate. We've forfeited thousands of dollars in lost reservations and tickets, not to mention having to re-tool our plans and spend thousands more dollars to move into a house we had put onto the market in an area we moved away from 10 years ago; and to put the cherry on the sundae, the people we rented our home to have demolished the place so we're looking at huge rehabilitation bills. PLEASE: Only serious and useful comments on this because we are infuriated enough already, thank you. 

Any advice?


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## accbgb

This is a very sad state of affairs; the highest number I have ever heard prior to this was €36,000 per year per person with many consulates quoting as much as a 50% reduction for the second and additional persons in the family. I am astonished by the $120,000 figure and, like you, wonder if it has been set high specifically to keep *you* out of Italy. Without prying into your personal affairs, can you think of any reason why this might happen? Health issues? Racial or religious issues? Criminal background?


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## pablock007

*ER visa Vito98103*

Dear Vito98103,
I am so very sorry to hear about what you and your wife are going through. It is indeed horrendous. I am also sorry to tell you that I am experiencing the Exact same treatment from the Italian consulate in New York City. This horrifying saga has been going on for almost 18 months. There too much to share to write it all here. I would be happy to have a conversation with you off-line, much easier that way. <snip> Thanks very much!




Vito98103 said:


> This was posted several days ago on another expat forum (don't see it duplicated here):
> 
> After nine years of planning, working with friends and realtors in Vicenza, purchased flight tickets, arrangement for transportation of household goods shipment and veterinary and travel arrangements for family cat, the dreams of my wife and I have been shot down in flames by a bureaucrat at the Italian Consulate of Philadelphia. Our Elective Residency Visa was denied. My wife and I are newly retired with combined pension incomes of $60,000 per year with survivorship clauses; Signora XXX declared we must have no less than $120,000 per year in income "or investments" in order to qualify for Elective Residency Visas. This feels like an arbitrary "Unwelcome Sign" since it just happens to be double what we make in pension incomes. We're devastated and have no idea whether it's worth the trouble of trying to do this again or even how to go about appealing this capricious move. Note: We were completely organized in our application, with everything accounted for and apparently everything OK except for the fact that we aren't rich movie stars. I would appreciate any insights from others on this page. I had previously heard there were problematic Italian Consulates, with Miami and San Francisco topping the list; but hadn't expected this behavior from the Philadelphia Consulate. We've forfeited thousands of dollars in lost reservations and tickets, not to mention having to re-tool our plans and spend thousands more dollars to move into a house we had put onto the market in an area we moved away from 10 years ago; and to put the cherry on the sundae, the people we rented our home to have demolished the place so we're looking at huge rehabilitation bills. PLEASE: Only serious and useful comments on this because we are infuriated enough already, thank you.
> 
> Any advice?


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## Italia-Mx

In fact, it may be an "Unwelcome Sign" and one that Italy has the prerogative to issue, as do all other countries, including the USA. Personally, I don't understand why people who have no Italian blood or ancestry, whether or not they are rich movie stars, just assume that Italy MUST approve them for a retirement visa when there are millions of Italians and their descendants in the diaspora around the world that Italy can and does choose from to return to reside in their ancestral homeland as Italian citizens, no visa necessary.


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## Italia-Mx

Also, to clarify. The priority of the Italian consulates you have deemed "problematic" is to serve the Italian citizens that reside within it's jurisdiction abroad. Also have you ever heard the old adage, "Don't put the cart before the horse"?


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## Vito98103

Note of clarification - the item I posted earlier today was from someone else, not myself -


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## panama rick

Three years ago my wife and I went through the same thing at the Miami consulate. We are now going the citizenship. If your friends don't have that option, a very viable option is Spain. They offer a non-lucrative visa for non-EU folks . The financial requirements are 2663 euros/mo. for a couple. We've had two friends of ours here in Panama who have applied, one was approved just yesterday. It took 6 weeks. It's not Italy, but it's a good option. 
Good luck!


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## Italyforme

Hi Panama Rick,

I am curious how you secured housing in advance of going in for the Elective Residence Visa? Can you share your experience and the process you followed to do that?

And then if you failed to get the Elective Residence Visa, how did you unwind the housing commitment?

Thanks!


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## accbgb

Italyforme said:


> Hi Panama Rick,
> 
> I am curious how you secured housing in advance of going in for the Elective Residence Visa? Can you share your experience and the process you followed to do that?
> 
> And then if you failed to get the Elective Residence Visa, how did you unwind the housing commitment?
> 
> Thanks!


Please keep in mind that there is nothing that stops you from purchasing a home or signing a long-term lease, even without having citizenship or an applicable visa in hand.

Of course, the fact that you own a home (or have leased an apartment) would not change the fact that, for example, as a US citizen you cannot stay in Italy for more than 90 days out of any 180 day period.


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## joec20

bella,

I know it's been a long time since you last posted to this thread, but I was curious if you ever went through with your ER visa attempt and, if so, what kind of response/treatment you got from the consulate.

Thanks!


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## panama rick

hi joec20. We did not continue the visa process. We never would have met the financial requirements. We went the citizenship route instead and were successful. We leave for Italy Mar 1.


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## Italia-Mx

panama rick said:


> hi joec20. We did not continue the visa process. We never would have met the financial requirements. We went the citizenship route instead and were successful. We leave for Italy Mar 1.


Congratulations. As a citizen you will be welcomed home and treated very well in Italy.


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## panama rick

ItaliaMix
Thanks very much. Abruzzo is very high on our list for a permanent location.


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## Italia-Mx

Abruzzo is great. I've been here 17 years but if you asked me about it since last August, I would say be prepared for earthquakes. We just had three strong shocks this morning at epicenter 57 miles northwest of Pescara. In addition this week, we have had thunder, lightning, heavy rain, strong gusts in Pescara and the epicenter area in the mountains is covered in deep, blowing snow. Schools in Rome have been evacuated and the Metro is closed due to state of emergency. Again, this is the first I've seen these kinds of weather phenomenon all at one time in 17 years.


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## panama rick

I'm aware of the increased earthquake activity, but not the weather. It could be cyclical. What do the locals think? We still plan to give Abruzzo our greatest attention. We'll see what happens. Thanks for the information.


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## NickZ

It's a big region. It varies from very high quake risk to relatively low risk. The area near the southern coast is one of the lowest quake risk zones in Italy. Unless you want to go further south into Puglia you need to accept quake risk in Italy.

Last winter was relatively warm. This month colder then normal. If there is a pattern it's that there is no pattern.


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## panama rick

Good info. My wife's grandparents are from Puglia, but I don't think we want to go that far south. I was stationed in Naples in the mid '80's, so I'm some what familiar with the quakes. I think we're going to concentrate on central Italy.


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## joec20

panama rick said:


> hi joec20. We did not continue the visa process. We never would have met the financial requirements. We went the citizenship route instead and were successful. We leave for Italy Mar 1.


Glad to hear you were able to get it done, one way or another. March is right around the corner now -- congrats! I'm sure you're beyond excited.


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