# Can We Afford To Live In Spain?



## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

We are both in our early 60's, both fit (famous last words), sick of work (so we won't be doing any in Spain), we won't have any debts and our clubbing days are long gone. We are not aversed to the odd lunchtime beer and meal out but intend to buy somethinge large enough to spend our time in and around without tripping over each other. Most of our eating and drinking will be done at home as is currently the case.

We will run a car and have to pay bills and rates etc, I'm not bad at tax mitigation as it forms part of my current job but find that tax inspectors wordwide like to have their little victories so will err on the side of not upsetting them. Things will need replacing and refurbishing, climbing up ladders with a pot of paint in one hand and a brush in the other is something that I don't do now and I don't envisage changing my ways in Spain. Clothing costs will be far less but the car will still need servicing and repairing, and of course there will be costs that we don't incurr in the UK, maintaining a swimming pool comes to mind.

So how much per annum will we require? Is there anyone out there who's circumstances are similar to ours? i.e. Living off the proceeds of state and private pensions and investments, call it £30K per annum net of UK taxes. Are we being realistic by thinking that we could live a better life in Spain than we live in the UK?

Oh and whilst I am on, we will be viewing properties in September ranging from 285,00 euros to 395,000 euros, all but one are owned by Brits who want to return to the UK.

All appear to be very nicely furnished but I can't imagine that they will be shipping it back to the UK. In view of the near collapse of the Spanish property market I have a feeling to go in at 30% less than the asking price inclusive of the furniture, what do you gyus think?


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## Big Pete (Aug 7, 2007)

crookesey said:


> We are both in our early 60's, both fit (famous last words), sick of work (so we won't be doing any in Spain), we won't have amy debts and our clubbing days are long gone. We are not aversed to the odd lunchtime beer and meal out but intend to buy somethinge large enough to spend our time in and around without tripping over each other. Most of our eating and drinking will be done at home as is currently the case.
> 
> We will run a car and have to pay bills and rates etc, I'm not bad at tax mitigation as it forms part of my current job but find that tax inspectors wordwide like to have their little victories so will err on the side of not upsetting them. Things will need replacing and refurbishing, climbing up ladders with a pot of paint in one hand and a brush in the other is something that I don't do now and I don't envisage changing my ways in Spain. Clothing costs will be far less but the car will still need servicing and repairing, and of course there will be costs that we don't incurr in the UK, maintaining a swimming pool comes to mind.
> 
> ...


On 30k i am sure you will be more than comfortable . and without doubt you will be better off , as you use less heating , lighting etc etc than in UK . 
On foods and stuff make sure you get a garden and you can grow your own fruits and veg  as you get the weather ..

Regards the trying 30% go for it , sounds a lot of discount to me and i would say go and run and jump or similar  But if there desperate or they brought it themselves at a keen price then could say ok


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

House prices in spain are predicted to have fallen by approx 20% by the end of 2010 - maybe wait til then to put in offers of 30% below the asking prices or you may not be taken very seriously! Also, you should look at which agents are selling which properties, some actually add their commission on top of the price the vendor is wanting - and the agents commission percentage can vary hugely! So you may find the same property on with several agents at different prices. You also have to pay a lot to buy a place here, around 7% - 10% of the house price - and be very careful that the property has the correct paperwork

As for living expenses, well I'm not finding it much cheaper than the UK, although people on this board would probably argue with me (in fact they have on a previous thread LOL!!!)! But I live here with two children. three dogs, a car and I smoke, dont drink or eat out very much and we spend approx 1,000 euros a month excluding rent and school fees

Jo


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## Big Pete (Aug 7, 2007)

jojo said:


> House prices in spain are predicted to have fallen by approx 20% by the end of 2010 - maybe wait til then to put in offers of 30% below the asking prices or you may not be taken very seriously! Also, you should look at which agents are selling which properties, some actually add their commission on top of the price the vendor is wanting - and the agents commission percentage can vary hugely! So you may find the same property on with several agents at different prices. You also have to pay a lot to buy a place here, around 7% - 10% of the house price - and be very careful that the property has the correct paperwork
> 
> As for living expenses, well I'm not finding it much cheaper than the UK, although people on this board would probably argue with me (in fact they have on a previous thread LOL!!!)! But I live here with two children. three dogs, a car and I smoke, dont drink or eat out very much and we spend approx 1,000 euros a month excluding rent and school fees
> 
> Jo



Yes but bear in mind at the moment the Euro is some 20% against us hence why not so obviously cheaper .. but when Euro back in synch  happy days.

Also young jojo what would your expenses be if you was back in UK ? as things here are creeping up and up ..


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Big Pete said:


> Yes but bear in mind at the moment the Euro is some 20% against us hence why not so obviously cheaper .. but when Euro back in synch  happy days.
> 
> Also young jojo what would your expenses be if you was back in UK ? as things here are creeping up and up ..


Yeah, the damn euro isnt helping!! Its difficult to guage the difference between what I spent in the UK and now, cos i buy totally different things here and of course the UK is also having major price rises. I guess I take a glance at familiar and similar items and there really isnt much difference -- I dont think??? fuel and utility bills are cheaper here though! In fact I cant get over how cheap the community/council charge thingy is here - 8 euros a month!!!! and we get a bin collection every other day!


I like the "YOUNG" Jo - I doubt whether theres much difference in our ages LOL!!

Jo


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## Big Pete (Aug 7, 2007)

jojo said:


> Yeah, the damn euro isnt helping!! Its difficult to guage the difference between what I spent in the UK and now, cos i buy totally different things here and of course the UK is also having major price rises. I guess I take a glance at familiar and similar items and there really isnt much difference -- I dont think??? fuel and utility bills are cheaper here though! In fact I cant get over how cheap the community/council charge thingy is here - 8 euros a month!!!! and we get a bin collection every other day!
> 
> 
> I like the "YOUNG" Jo - I doubt whether theres much difference in our ages LOL!!
> ...


Well i must admit when i was over last week i found myself thinking things wasnt much difference to the UK on a lot of things , but it was only when i calculated the Euro thats where the prob was ..

yep i agree the Rates are good value for money ours is emptied every night at about 1.00am . regular as clockwork. and the roads get swept and even one day this young kid was walking along blowing the paths down in readiness for the sweeper 
And i have street lights on every night , we have 8 down the road here in UK but they only light 3 at a time  and here i pay £ 2000 a year  in Mallorca £ 300 

Well i am 50 and everyone is young to me  I started work at 17 had me first business at 19 so i grew up quicker than most  And now capturing my youth i guess 
I Look 40 ish but feel 80 and act 21


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

€ - the problem is that the pound is allied more to the Dollar and that's weak. Take a look at UK/US stocks vs Spanish stocks and you'll see far more volatility there too.

Pete: Rates good vfm - You'd be of a different opinion if you had to do the work. The pay is ****e. 

btw - when were your rates here last reviewed?. Ours shot up 300% when they were. Often happens at (just after) change of ownership - more or less when Catastro notes the change.


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

jojo said:


> As for living expenses, well I'm not finding it much cheaper than the UK, although people on this board would probably argue with me (in fact they have on a previous thread LOL!!!)! But I live here with two children. three dogs, a car and I smoke, dont drink or eat out very much and we spend approx 1,000 euros a month excluding rent and school fees Jo


KERIST! We have 2 cars, 3 bikes, 2 dogs (no kids) - Monti (the missus) smokes - we eat out at least once a week and we're living on a LOT less. 

We do both work though so have less time to spend money. It makes a difference. Gotta love this strong Euro - makes UK trips almost acceptable.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

chris(madrid) said:


> Gotta love this strong Euro - makes UK trips almost acceptable.


Not if your income is in sterling!!

jo


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Crooksey

You sound as if your expectations are much the same as ours. We dont draw pensions yet though, and live on investment income at the moment.

When we first arrived, only 2 years ago, I had calculated that we could live comfortably on around €1000 - €1200 a month, using capital if we needed any "extras". In reality it was about right then ..... but now of course with the r/ex we have to send over more sterling to get the same euros. 

Even so, on £30k (€37k) you will live like kings around this area (I believe you are looking near us). Quite often I do hear people say they are finding it as expensive as the UK (and I don't doubt them) but here we dont find it so.


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> Crooksey
> 
> You sound as if your expectations are much the same as ours. We dont draw pensions yet though, and live on investment income at the moment.
> 
> ...


Probably very similar, my wifes drawing her state pension now and we have decided to draw our private pensions at the same time as my state pension becomes due in 4 years time, something like £23K P/A in total. Investments will top it up but it makes our Public Sector friends look very wealthy.

Of course we are not coming over until we have bought a property and sold some property over here so will keep hold of the day jobs so not to go into savings. I expect the whole process to take a couple of years but as we won't have any mortgages to pay we don't mind buying early if the right thing comes along.

I think that we will be OK as I expect our rates, gas, electric & water to reach £4500 P/A over here very soon, nothing like in Spain so makes up somewhat for the ex/rate.


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## Goldberg (May 24, 2007)

People move back sure, but alot of people stay.

With 30k sterling a year you will be minted, and have a good life.

It is not all about the money though, you will have better sun shine and beaches, and a new challenge.

Truthfully too, it is not for every one , if you have been stuck in the uk for 60 years you have a certain way of living, so you may not be able to hack it. Like the people who return.

Expat life is for some and not all. You either like it or not. The easy way , is too come over try renting for a year, if you like you stay if not, you go back to cold old england.

I was thinking today, if I left spain, and went to say brazil or dubai, I would not dream of going back to england, all the people I talk too want to leave!

Tax, Political correctness and terrible weather, and lots of immigrants, at least you get sun here! Some things dont work, sure, but where can you eat out for 5 pounds and get courses in the uk.

It is not perfect but if you just have to sit in the sun and relax, I dont know anywhere that beats it.

It is the number retirement spot for retirement people. For us who have to work it is much more challenging. Much, you are lucky.

But still would not go back to uk, the world is too big to see.


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

Goldberg said:


> People move back sure, but alot of people stay.
> 
> With 30k sterling a year you will be minted, and have a good life.
> 
> ...


Don't worry about our ages, our son's friends often say that we are the youngest 60 odd year olds that they know.

I know what I will miss about the UK.

1) The Peak National Park (we live an eight minuets drive from Chatsworth Park). However there must be something about the UK that all expats miss.

2) Our son, who will no doubt view us as the scours of as many cheap holidays as he can manage.

I look forward to early morning drives to the coast and walking on the beach dipping my toes in the water long before the rabble arrive. On the way back I will pick up the freshly baked bread, freshly squeezed orange juice and cooked meats and cheese for our late breakfast.

I love doing the shopping when in Spain, albeit that I spend an eternity doing it. Decisions, decisions, will it be meat or fish for dinner? will it be salad or vegetables or both? what fruit shall I buy? Then of course comes the all-important selection of the wine too accompany the meal that I have not yet decided on. I will then have a titter when I hear a UK regional accent saying "See if they sell Kingsmill Fred". Back home with the supplies only to find out that we have run out of San Miguel and bottled water, off I go again.

On my return the wife says "The bottom of the pool is filthy", great, I can now play at submarines with the remote controlled underwater Hoover thingy, thats another very productive hour taken care of. Have a look at the TV and see what's going on back in the UK, bloody hell its Gordon Brown, I'm going for a swim, the wife has beaten me to it. A bit of gardening when it cools down and then fire up the barbecue, remembering to keep quiet about the Premiership match that kicks off at 9-00 pm Spanish time, roll on tomorrow.

Do you think that we will fit in?


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## Big Pete (Aug 7, 2007)

crookesey said:


> Don't worry about our ages, our son's friends often say that we are the youngest 60 odd year olds that they know.
> 
> I know what I will miss about the UK.
> 
> ...


 you will fit in perfectly ...


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## Pete (Jun 22, 2008)

Hi Crooksey

I am slightly younger (year or two) but in a similar position in terms of wanting to move to Spain. Hope you will keep the forum informed of your progress.

Regards

Pete


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2009)

You missed a few things out from the day in summer when you go to the beach you spend half an hour trying to find a car park, jelly fish sting you as you paddle in the water (not so much of an issue this year). The fruit in the shops you start to notice after a while looks decidedly battered as the best stuff is exported. As you arrive home you wife tells you the electricity has gone off again and so no playing with your remote control thingy or watching SKY - you therefore spend the day in temperatures of almost forty degrees cutting the lawn and pulling up weeds. In the winter - well that's another story!

OK its not that bad all the time but you may well find you have days like that - I know I do! I do frequently tell clients it is not paradise here - but if anyone finds that perfect place please send me a PM!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

JamesSalobrena said:


> You missed a few things out from the day in summer when you go to the beach you spend half an hour trying to find a car park, jelly fish sting you as you paddle in the water (not so much of an issue this year). The fruit in the shops you start to notice after a while looks decidedly battered as the best stuff is exported. As you arrive home you wife tells you the electricity has gone off again and so no playing with your remote control thingy or watching SKY - you therefore spend the day in temperatures of almost forty degrees cutting the lawn and pulling up weeds. In the winter - well that's another story!
> 
> OK its not that bad all the time but you may well find you have days like that - I know I do! I do frequently tell clients it is not paradise here - but if anyone finds that perfect place please send me a PM!


Absolutely true about the parking. That's why I never take the car to Madrid for example, although I know not every one can pick and choose about how they travel. Our bus and local train service is excellent; reliable , clean and cheap. Three things that public transport didn't have where I was in the UK. Even so, when I do have to take the car I find paid parking much cheaper than the UK.

Absolutely true about the electric and also water where I live. Not funny when you get up for work and there's not a drop of water in the house. But our problem is something to do with the "urbanización having private roads and water system. We have now paid for it to be taken over by the local water authority.

Definitely not true about the fruit and veg. I find most supermarket stuff not v. good, ok if you're in a hurry kind of thing. Better to go to a little shop and for the owner to get to know you as a regular customer. (I have to admit we get most of our veg and some fruit from an ecological farmer in Jarandilla de la vega who delivers once a week to our group of 10 families. Great stuff)

Not much of a problem with jelly fish in Madrid funnily enough

I know where I prefer to be...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Goldberg said:


> !
> 
> Tax, Political correctness and terrible weather, *and lots of immigrants, *
> 
> ...


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

Exactly M. But I wouldn't get too wound up by it - it was an old post and hopefully the forum is attracting a more educated poster these days. We live in hope, anyway!

Tallulah.x


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## mike kelly (Aug 12, 2009)

jojo said:


> House prices in spain are predicted to have fallen by approx 20% by the end of 2010


between now and the end of 2010 house prices will fall by 20%? That seems very high. I really would like to know the source of this prediction


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

mike kelly said:


> between now and the end of 2010 house prices will fall by 20%? That seems very high. I really would like to know the source of this prediction


Hi Mike

I think it has been quoted in many press articles here in Spain that a drop of 20% on average house prices would occur ........ and in some areas it already has! Although one has to ask the question was the original price severely over inflated in the first place!

As an example the apartment we rent direct from a developer was marketed at 450k euros 18 months ago (and people did buy them!) ..... and the last few remaining 3 beds are now marketed at 350k .....  which is more than a 20% reduction...... 

Up and down the coast there are plenty of developers offering similar "discounts" which are well within the 20% "fall" .

But again this isnt going to be the same everywhere is it ? So what the final average % drop will be across Spain is anyones guess I suppose.

Sue


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Tallulah said:


> Exactly M. But I wouldn't get too wound up by it - it was an old post and hopefully the forum is attracting a more educated poster these days. We live in hope, anyway!
> 
> Tallulah.x


Thanks, T. You put it in perspective and I should be tranquil, I'm in Spain!
But isn't it odd, we refer to ourselves as 'expats' buit anyone who comes to live in the UK is an immigrant?


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## mike kelly (Aug 12, 2009)

Suenneil said:


> Hi Mike
> 
> I think it has been quoted in many press articles here in Spain that a drop of 20% on average house prices would occur ........ and in some areas it already has! Although one has to ask the question was the original price severely over inflated in the first place!
> 
> ...


yes, the last 2 years have seen substantial price reductions, especially in coastal areas. But I do question that that from now these already reduced prices will fall by another 20%. The press usually give year on year %s, I don't recall any prediction of a further 20% fall by the end of 2010.


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

mike kelly said:


> yes, the last 2 years have seen substantial price reductions, especially in coastal areas. But I do question that that from now these already reduced prices will fall by another 20%. The press usually give year on year %s, I don't recall any prediction of a further 20% fall by the end of 2010.


Hi Mike

I couldnt remember the articles but have just googled it and got a lot of press reports quoting similar figures and timeframes.

Here is one from the Telegraph.

Sue 

Spanish house prices to drop a further 20 per cent - Telegraph


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mike kelly said:


> yes, the last 2 years have seen substantial price reductions, especially in coastal areas. But I do question that that from now these already reduced prices will fall by another 20%. The press usually give year on year %s, I don't recall any prediction of a further 20% fall by the end of 2010.


which would mean the prediction Jo mentioned was on the right track

she made that post over a year ago - in June 2008


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> which would mean the prediction Jo mentioned was on the right track
> 
> she made that post over a year ago - in June 2008


Well the Telegraph article I think is dated February this year .... so they were projecting a 20% drop from then on .... so worse than originally thought ? Although I suppose things can change so quickly in the markets that it may be they dont drop as much as that in the end ?

Watch this space


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## Claire la richarde (Jul 6, 2009)

Suenneil said:


> Well the Telegraph article I think is dated February this year .... so they were projecting a 20% drop from then on .... so worse than originally thought ? Although I suppose things can change so quickly in the markets that it may be they dont drop as much as that in the end ?
> 
> Watch this space



This is dated July 2009, from Reuters

MADRID, July 15 (Reuters) - Spanish house prices fell 8.3 percent year-on-year in the second quarter, accelerating from a revised 6.5 percent fall in the first quarter, the Housing Ministry said on Wednesday.

That was the fastest decline since records began in 1995. However, on a quarter-on-quarter basis the decline slowed to 1.9 percent from 3 percent in the first quarter.

*A Reuters housing poll of Spanish and foreign-based economists found that on average prices were expected to fall 32 percent from their 2007 peak.*

Wednesday's data compares with a 10.1 percent year on year fall in June according to private surveyors Tinsa, compared to a 9.8 percent fall in May.


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

Claire la richarde said:


> This is dated July 2009, from Reuters
> 
> MADRID, July 15 (Reuters) - Spanish house prices fell 8.3 percent year-on-year in the second quarter, accelerating from a revised 6.5 percent fall in the first quarter, the Housing Ministry said on Wednesday.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this ... although it doesnt make happy reading does it for some people - although for others it will bring a huge smile to their faces ... there are always winners and losers unfortunately.

Sue lane:


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I read somewhere that actually the spanish are really pleased that property prices are falling, it means their youngsters can at last get a foothold on the property ladder. As far as they're concerned it was only ever the brits and others who came over and created a crazy and artificial price rise, fuelled by some of the "expat" estate agencies!! Of course the other side of the coin is that these same Brits also brought prosperity to their country... that and joining the EU!

Jo xxx


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## Suenneil (Feb 17, 2009)

jojo said:


> I read somewhere that actually the spanish are really pleased that property prices are falling, it means their youngsters can at last get a foothold on the property ladder. As far as they're concerned it was only ever the brits and others who came over and created a crazy and artificial price rise, fuelled by some of the "expat" estate agencies!! Of course the other side of the coin is that these same Brits also brought prosperity to their country... that and joining the EU!
> 
> Jo xxx


Hi Jo

I think there will be a "split" camp on this one .... Im sure its true that the Spanish will be pleased of the fall in prices as it means youngsters / first time buyers have a much better chance of getting on the property ladder (Im sure a lot of people in the UK would hope for the same ) ..... and I think I also read something similar to what you mentioned here.

On the other side of the coin are the Spaniards themselves who fed into the hyped up prices and played their own part in keeping prices high....along with the real estate companies.

People will also complain about the fall if they already own (where they paid way over the odds ... or at least last years prices!) .... but unless you are actually wanting to sell now - the loss "on paper" doesnt mean a lot at the moment, and once prices have stabilised Im sure they will rise again over the years at a more "natural" rate.

I seriously wish I was in a position to buy at the moment .... I would certainly be looking around for something ...


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2012)

Goldberg said:


> !
> 
> Tax, Political correctness and terrible weather, *and lots of immigrants, *
> 
> ...


I am shocked at how many even Older Brits cry and complain about Immigrants in the UK - sorry but you are all immigrants in Spain as well and the Spanish don't particularly like British either or your drunken way of life. Besides if you go to cities like Madrid and Barcelona in Spain - those are full of immigrants too much more than UK but British have this really nasty attitude towards immigrants. If you lived in a remote village in Deveon or Cornwall in the UK - where are the immigrants there?? None...but there are a lot of out of control white british kids carrying knives, drinking and killing each other - but no one makes a mention of the YOBS and anti-social white trash behaviour in UK ever - all they cry about is "immigration"......the reason I left UK is not because I was fed up of Immigrants - I was fed up with the British and their nasty attitude towards everything. 

Good luck with Spain, I hope the Spanish get just as fed up of you British "Immigrants" as you are fed up of everyone else.

And NO - on £30k a year you cannot live like Kings in Spain - it is still Europe not Africa...LOL....fact is £30k will be much less in a few years time as the whole world is getting more and more expensive....living like a KING means being able to afford a chauffeur, maid, chef etc...which you can't anywhere in Europe unless you have 100k a month....at least.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

And a jolly good evening to you too.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Moving2France said:


> I am shocked at how many even Older Brits cry and complain about Immigrants in the UK - sorry but you are all immigrants in Spain as well and the Spanish don't particularly like British either or your drunken way of life. Besides if you go to cities like Madrid and Barcelona in Spain - those are full of immigrants too much more than UK but British have this really nasty attitude towards immigrants. If you lived in a remote village in Deveon or Cornwall in the UK - where are the immigrants there?? None...but there are a lot of out of control white british kids carrying knives, drinking and killing each other - but no one makes a mention of the YOBS and anti-social white trash behaviour in UK ever - all they cry about is "immigration"......the reason I left UK is not because I was fed up of Immigrants - I was fed up with the British and their nasty attitude towards everything.
> 
> Good luck with Spain, I hope the Spanish get just as fed up of you British "Immigrants" as you are fed up of everyone else.
> 
> And NO - on £30k a year you cannot live like Kings in Spain - it is still Europe not Africa...LOL....fact is £30k will be much less in a few years time as the whole world is getting more and more expensive....living like a KING means being able to afford a chauffeur, maid, chef etc...which you can't anywhere in Europe unless you have 100k a month....at least.



Now look at the date of this thread. The post you're commenting on was written nearly four years ago! Go and take a chill pill!!!! 

Jo


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