# Spanish State Pension and Brexit



## R.M.Murray (Dec 15, 2017)

My wife and I returned to the UK in 2015 after spending 13 glorious years living and working in Spain. During that time we made full Spanish Social Security contributions on a monthly basis. We are now working in the UK and once again we are contributing to the UK social security system via our National Insurance payments. Given that it now looks as if we will be leaving the EU in 2019 I was wondering how this may effect the pension payments due to us from the Spanish system when we reach retirement age. I have been unable to find an answer to this question via Google searches and suspect, like many things to do with Brexit, that it has not been considered. Has there been any discussion on this topic? Does anyone know what will happen?

Regards

Rob


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Very good question. We are both in the same position.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

How about contacting DWP. If there _is_ any information, they should know, shouldn't they?


----------



## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

All the DWP will say is that everything will be as per usual until we leave the EU. After that, they won't comment. Presumably because they don't know and are not permitted to make any statement which later turns out not to be correct.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

thrax said:


> All the DWP will say is that everything will be as per usual until we leave the EU. After that, they won't comment. Presumably because they don't know and are not permitted to make any statement which later turns out not to be correct.


Yes, I'm sure you're right, and so is it worth knowing anything more than they know? I mean when deals are done and signed, that's when they will know and only then will the information be official and correct. Anything before that is just rumour really


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, I'm sure you're right, and so is it worth knowing anything more than they know? I mean when deals are done and signed, that's when they will know and only then will the information be official and correct. Anything before that is just rumour really


Yes. There is nothing we can do about it. Things will either carry on as they are or they won't. :noidea:


----------



## Gran Erry-Bredd (Nov 1, 2016)

Have you asked the DWP what your position would be if you reached retirement age tomorrow, rather than in 2019?


----------



## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

R.M.Murray said:


> My wife and I returned to the UK in 2015 after spending 13 glorious years living and working in Spain. During that time we made full Spanish Social Security contributions on a monthly basis. We are now working in the UK and once again we are contributing to the UK social security system via our National Insurance payments. Given that it now looks as if we will be leaving the EU in 2019 I was wondering how this may effect the pension payments due to us from the Spanish system when we reach retirement age. I have been unable to find an answer to this question via Google searches and suspect, like many things to do with Brexit, that it has not been considered. Has there been any discussion on this topic? Does anyone know what will happen?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rob


At the moment you probably aren't due anything directly from the Spanish state pension system because you need to pay in for 15 years first. If you can find a way of voluntarily paying another 2 years you should then be due something, regardless of Brexit.

There is also an EU mechanism that allows those 13 years to count towards a final pension, based on cumulative years worked in each EU country. But I haven't seen anything as to whether this will be available to UK nationals after Brexit. As this also affects other EU nationals who have worked in the UK as well, you'd think they'd come to some arrangement. But I doubt anything has been agreed yet.

Sorry I can't be more precise.


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Gran Erry-Bredd said:


> Have you asked the DWP what your position would be if you reached retirement age tomorrow, rather than in 2019?


My good lady asked the DWP recently about her pension prospects including her Spanish entitlement - she reaches pensionable age in 2020. 

They said come back and ask them the three years - the won't look at it until it's imminent.

That was before Brexit was an issue. I can't imagine they will be inclined to make guesses and start sorting out hypothetical scenarios.


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

A quick read of this reveals that Spain has pension accords with many countries - not only EU - so maybe there's hope.



> If you have moved to Spain from another European Union (EU) country, your insurance contributions in other EU member states can count towards calculating your eligibility for a Spanish pension. Spain also has many bilateral agreements with non-European countries, enabling many foreigners to transfer or combine pension benefits from abroad to Spain...


----------



## R.M.Murray (Dec 15, 2017)

As I suspected, it would appear that the government has given no consideration to this area whatsoever. Hardly a surprise though considering that they don't actually know themselves how they want the whole Brexit thing to pan out. What a shambles. I now wish I had taken out Spanish citizenship and remained living there.


----------



## JFKK (Mar 3, 2013)

R.M.Murray said:


> My wife and I returned to the UK in 2015 after spending 13 glorious years living and working in Spain. During that time we made full Spanish Social Security contributions on a monthly basis. We are now working in the UK and once again we are contributing to the UK social security system via our National Insurance payments. Given that it now looks as if we will be leaving the EU in 2019 I was wondering how this may effect the pension payments due to us from the Spanish system when we reach retirement age. I have been unable to find an answer to this question via Google searches and suspect, like many things to do with Brexit, that it has not been considered. Has there been any discussion on this topic? Does anyone know what will happen?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rob




You do not need the full 15 years. This is for the full Spanish Pension.
You receive a portion of the Full Pension.
Living in Spain (Resident) apply for UK Pension through Spanish S.S. and at same time apply for Spanish Pension. The Spanish application was actually easier than the UK Applicaion
As far as I am aware if you are in UK apply for Pension and the Spanish pension through the UK Pension Agency

I did not manage the 15 years working in Spain but receive a Spanish Pension.


----------



## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

JFKK said:


> You do not need the full 15 years. This is for the full Spanish Pension.
> You receive a portion of the Full Pension.
> Living in Spain (Resident) apply for UK Pension through Spanish S.S. and at same time apply for Spanish Pension. The Spanish application was actually easier than the UK Applicaion
> As far as I am aware if you are in UK apply for Pension and the Spanish pension through the UK Pension Agency
> ...


The 15 years is to qualify for the Spanish contribution based pension. You need considerably more than 15 years to get the full amount.

Could you elaborate as to how long you paid in for, and when you qualified for the pension you are receiving?


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

I believe that I and OH will entitled to something as I paid autonomo for 2 years and OH was employed for 9 years so she is also entitled. 

However I have also heard about the minimum 15 years issue.

Can anyone clarify?


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jimenato said:


> I believe that I and OH will entitled to something as I paid autonomo for 2 years and OH was employed for 9 years so she is also entitled.
> 
> However I have also heard about the minimum 15 years issue.
> 
> Can anyone clarify?


Currently any years worked in any EU country are effectively added together, so your two years & your wife's 9 years will be added to however many years you have worked in the UK, when you reach retirement age there.

It's still not clear of course if that will continue after Brexit.


If it doesn't continue, as I understand it you would both still be entitled to some kind of Spanish pension, having worked in Spain, regardless of how long that was.


----------



## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

I thought the article Jimenato linked to summed it up well:

https://www.expatica.com/es/finance/pension-in-spain-spanish-pension_846584.html

and also this article that the above site links to: 

Seguridad Social:Workers

Basiclly you can start to qualify for the Spanish contribution based state pension after having contributed for 15 years. Contributions made to state pension systems in other EU countries count towards those 15 years. It's not clear whether contributions made in the UK will still count after Brexit, but you'd think they'd make it so.

The only bit that is unclear to me is what you are entitled to from the Spanish government if your contributions add up to less than 15 years. My understanding is you can still claim a non-contribution based pension (about €400 pcm) but this depends on what your other income is and other factors. i.e. unlike the contribution based pension, this is means tested, so if you have other income then you may get next to nothing. Also you need to have lived in Spain for at least 10 years to qualify for this...

https://loentiendo.com/pension-no-contributivas/


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

If you have worked in two or more EU states you claim in the one you are now living ,or if you have never worked there then the one worked in last. The one you claim in has the responsibility to do ALL the work required to claim every pension in each of the countries. Legally there is no requirement for you to do it, nor are you supposed to.
By working in 2 EU countries your pension now comes under "EU pension Rules" & will be on average 25 to 30% enhanced over normal basic pension rates.
If there are differences in retirement ages for the countries you have worked in the set up is still the same but they will not all be paid together.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/retire-abroad/state-pensions-abroad/index_en.htm

The cross border pensions all come under the amount the UK is required to pay to exit. Legally all who have worked in other EU states when/if the Uk exits , still have the legal entitlement under EU rules to the pensions. 
Years back my brother had 12 years payments in the Uk & the last 12 in Germany. The Germans did it all. All paid by the Germans & broken down on statements as to which country was paying what amount. Eye opener the difference as well. UK's 12 years = £200 Germanys 12 years =1000€


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

jimenato said:


> I believe that I and OH will entitled to something as I paid autonomo for 2 years and OH was employed for 9 years so she is also entitled.
> 
> However I have also heard about the minimum 15 years issue.
> 
> Can anyone clarify?


The minimum years required , i.e in Spain 15 , do not count once you work in 2 or more EU states. On another forum someone who didn't even work in Spain for 1 year was getting a contribution under EU pension rules & that was some years back. & all the pensions were claimed in spain as that was where residency was.

This is also why the EU is insistent in negotiations that the ECj is final arbiter for those EU citizens working in the UK & the Uk citizens resident in the EU. To prevent the Uk scamming everyone .


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Thanks Gus - very useful information.


----------



## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

gus-lopez said:


> The minimum years required , i.e in Spain 15 , do not count once you work in 2 or more EU states. On another forum someone who didn't even work in Spain for 1 year was getting a contribution under EU pension rules & that was some years back. & all the pensions were claimed in spain as that was where residency was.
> 
> ...


The 15 year rule was introduced quite recently (about 2012 IIRC) and before then I think it took significantly fewer years to qualify for the contribution based pension (maybe only 3 years?). This is partly why I questioned JFKK's post earlier in this thread, because he might have got his pension before the new rules were introduced.

Also I find it hard to believe that someone who has worked say 1 year in the UK and then 1 year in Spain suddenly qualifies for the current Spanish contribution based pension. I'd have thought the total number of years worked in each EU country would have to add up to more than 15 years?


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Chopera said:


> The 15 year rule was introduced quite recently (about 2012 IIRC) and before then I think it took significantly fewer years to qualify for the contribution based pension (maybe only 3 years?). This is partly why I questioned JFKK's post earlier in this thread, because he might have got his pension before the new rules were introduced.
> 
> Also I find it hard to believe that someone who has worked say 1 year in the UK and then 1 year in Spain suddenly qualifies for the current Spanish contribution based pension. I'd have thought the total number of years worked in each EU country would have to add up to more than 15 years?


No all you would get for the 1 year is 1/35 ( I think it is 35 years for a full spanish pension) but paid at the enhanced EU pension rate . Same would be for the UK 1 year.= 1/35 So if you only ever worked for 1year in each & nothing else you would get a pension of 2/35ths at EU rates .Rather than the nothing that you would get if both years were worked in either country.


----------



## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

So as an example  someone who worked 25 years in the UK and paid 2 years autonomo in Spain would get 27/35ths of a pension at Spanish rates and someone who worked 25 years in the UK and was employed part time for 9 years in Spain would get 34/35ths pension at Spanish rates? 

Also although the last time they worked was in Spain they would claim in the UK as that is where they lived when they hit pension age?

Have I understood correctly?


----------



## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

gus-lopez said:


> No all you would get for the 1 year is 1/35 ( I think it is 35 years for a full spanish pension) but paid at the enhanced EU pension rate . Same would be for the UK 1 year.= 1/35 So if you only ever worked for 1year in each & nothing else you would get a pension of 2/35ths at EU rates .Rather than the nothing that you would get if both years were worked in either country.


OK I think we're using different definitions. Personally I wouldn't call what you described here the Spanish contribution based pension. As you say it's an EU system that you can claim from in the country you happen to retire in (see post #8).


----------



## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Chopera said:


> The 15 year rule was introduced quite recently (about 2012 IIRC) and before then I think it took significantly fewer years to qualify for the contribution based pension (maybe only 3 years?). This is partly why I questioned JFKK's post earlier in this thread, because he might have got his pension before the new rules were introduced.
> 
> Also I find it hard to believe that someone who has worked say 1 year in the UK and then 1 year in Spain suddenly qualifies for the current Spanish contribution based pension. I'd have thought the total number of years worked in each EU country would have to add up to more than 15 years?


A lengthy article here in Sur. Questions and answers re. Spanish pensions.

Las preguntas más frecuentes sobre la jubilación | Diario Sur


----------



## DonMarco (Nov 20, 2016)

Isobella said:


> A lengthy article here in Sur. Questions and answers re. Spanish pensions.
> 
> Las preguntas más frecuentes sobre la jubilación | Diario Sur


Have you got an english version of that link?


----------



## HKG3 (Jan 11, 2015)

Another important point for those Brits who made Spanish state pension contributions is that the UK and Spain signed a social security reciprocal agreement in 1974 which became the Family Allowance, National Insurance and Industrial Injuries (Spain) Order 1975.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1975/415/pdfs/uksi_19750415_301114_en.pdf

For old age pensions, please see part 3 (Articles 16 to 19).

In Article 16 (2), it stated that - 

_For the purpose of determining whether such a person is entitled to receive an old age pension under the legislation of one Party, any contribution period or equivalent period which he has completed under the legislation of the other Party shall be treated as if it were, respectively, a contribution period or equivalent period completed under the legislation of the former Party._


----------



## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

*UK State Pensions ranked the worst in the Developed World*

Dire news for British Pensioners living on just the State Pension, as the UK is now considered to have the
worst state pension in the developed world; even falling behind Mexico and Chile in 2017 both of which
the UK was said to be ahead in previous years.

The Telegraph - UK State pension now ranked the worst in the developed world


----------

