# winter fuel allowance



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Pensioners

Pensioners claiming winter fuel allowance, but living outside the UK, will no longer all be eligible. This will depend on a so-called "temperature test," which will exclude countries warmer than the UK in the winter. The new welfare cap (see above) will not affect the state pension. This means the government will still have the freedom to maintain or increase pensions in the future.


Discuss!


BBC News - The Spending Review and you



> The biggest bill for winter fuel payments in Europe - outside the UK - is for expats in Spain, figures from the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) show.
> 
> The cost for people there was £5.78m in the winter of 2011-12, according to the most recent statistics.
> 
> Expats in countries such as Greece, Portugal and Cyprus are likely to lose winter fuel payments. The bill for expats in these countries in the same year was £240,000, £356,000 and £926,000 respectively


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

That sounds fair enough to me.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I watch the Spanish weather forecasts, there are areas far colder than the U.K. in winter. 

I wonder how the temperature figures will be fiddled so that none of us in Spain get the allowance.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Hepa said:


> I watch the Spanish weather forecasts, there are areas far colder than the U.K. in winter.
> 
> I wonder how the temperature figures will be fiddled so that none of us in Spain get the allowance.


yes, I was wondering about that....

& how about a 'summer cooling allowance' - aircon generally costs a lot more to run than heating.....


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> yes, I was wondering about that....
> 
> & how about a 'summer cooling allowance' - aircon generally costs a lot more to run than heating.....


Either way I am on a loser here, no air con., no heating whatsoever...............


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Hepa said:


> Either way I am on a loser here, no air con., no heating whatsoever...............


no icy cold, No sahara heatwave....


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

There are places not so far away from here that get more snow that England does. Our Pool froze over a few years ago. 

Its just another money grab by Mr Osbourne


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

Expats in countries such as Greece, Portugal and Cyprus are likely to lose winter fuel payments. The bill for expats in these countries in the same year was £240,000, £356,000 and £926,000 respectively ...............


In the scale of things this is a pittance !, and far less than the amount that (some) of those systers in Parliment cream off the top.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Typical of this UK government. It is so much like the Governments of Spain back in the 1500-1600s. When the landowners and the rest of the rich managed to get themselves exempt from paying taxes so that the entire tax burden was borne by the poor, so it was little surprise that the Monarchy had to declare bankruptcy several times because the poor who were starving had nothing to pay taxes with.

Winter of 2008/9 I got frostbite in Andalucía!


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> no icy cold, No sahara heatwave....


Twice a year we may get a calima, (hot dust from the sahara), and now and again we get that wet stuff that falls from the sky. The nearest we get to icy cold is snow on Mount Teide, 100 miles to the east.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Hepa said:


> Twice a year we may get a calima, (hot dust from the sahara), and now and again we get that wet stuff that falls from the sky. The nearest we get to icy cold is snow on Mount Teide, 100 miles to the east.


would have been fairer to stop it for pensioners on incomes over£30,000 wherever they lived.I've heard people say that they don't need it;so why did they apply for it the first place-it's not thrust upon them, they have to apply!How many millionaires are claiming it?


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

extranjero said:


> would have been fairer to stop it for pensioners on incomes over£30,000 wherever they lived.I've heard people say that they don't need it;so why did they apply for it the first place-it's not thrust upon them, they have to apply!How many millionaires are claiming it?


Thats exactly it.
All these benefits are paid in some way to very rich people. They even get a free TV licence when over 70.
But instead they target the people whos voting possibilities are restricted!


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Stravinsky said:


> There are places not so far away from here that get more snow that England does. Our Pool froze over a few years ago.
> 
> Its just another money grab by Mr Osbourne


Isn't it Teruel ?


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## ScottJaniceKyleErinFreya (Jan 11, 2013)

extranjero said:


> would have been fairer to stop it for pensioners on incomes over£30,000 wherever they lived.I've heard people say that they don't need it;so why did they apply for it the first place-it's not thrust upon them, they have to apply!How many millionaires are claiming it?


Why over 30k? People live within in their means, so just because someone earns 31000 doesnt mean they have wads of spare cash.
If you have paid your fair share of taxes over the years why shouldnt you claim your heating allowance wherever you choose to retire? 
The goverment should be clamping down on genuine ways to save cash


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

ScottJaniceKyleErinFreya said:


> Why over 30k? People live within in their means, so just because someone earns 31000 doesnt mean they have wads of spare cash.
> If you have paid your fair share of taxes over the years why shouldnt you claim your heating allowance wherever you choose to retire?
> The goverment should be clamping down on genuine ways to save cash


I agree with that, I, and a lot more, paid in to the system from being 15, and I am still being taxed. 

Blooming politicians, most of whom, have never known what real hard work is.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

ScottJaniceKyleErinFreya said:


> Why over 30k? People live within in their means, so just because someone earns 31000 doesnt mean they have wads of spare cash.
> If you have paid your fair share of taxes over the years why shouldnt you claim your heating allowance wherever you choose to retire?
> The goverment should be clamping down on genuine ways to save cash


If a couple of pensioners have £31000 a year, what are they, if not rich?


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

gus-lopez said:


> Isn't it Teruel ?


For sure, Terual, Cuenca ... Aragon in general.
So how do they work that???

A little house on the coast in the Costa Blanca may be warmer in winter than the UK, but 100 kms inland its maybe colder!!! So do they penalise some because others "dont need it"?


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## tonemar (Nov 9, 2010)

Nasty and vindictive I call it. The amounts involved will doing nothing for the deficit, if there is a deficit, do you believe anything our political classes tell us who, time and again have been found 
to be, shall we say, economical with the truth. There seems to be plenty of money washing around for failed Bankers and Chief Execs etc. Plenty for Cameron to swan round the world dishing it out.
You work all your life, have the gumption to get of your backside and do something for yourself, and the inference is your the rich idle lying in the sunshine.
I'm going on the dole!!


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## ScottJaniceKyleErinFreya (Jan 11, 2013)

extranjero said:


> If a couple of pensioners have £31000 a year, what are they, if not rich?


Your point being? Just because they have an income of 31000 they are wealthy?
Surely if they have paid there share of taxes etc they are entitled to the heating allowance of what, £200 a year ?
Do you not agree with it?
Whats your thoughts on someone who hasnt worked a day in his life, contributed nothing, use's his dole money(probably partialy funded by his cash in hand jobs) to pay for holidays, flat screen tvs designer clothes etc etc etc does he deserve the heating allowance?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

ScottJaniceKyleErinFreya said:


> Your point being? Just because they have an income of 31000 they are wealthy?
> Surely if they have paid there share of taxes etc they are entitled to the heating allowance of what, £200 a year ?
> Do you not agree with it?
> Whats your thoughts on someone who hasnt worked a day in his life, contributed nothing, use's his dole money(probably partialy funded by his cash in hand jobs) to pay for holidays, flat screen tvs designer clothes etc etc etc does he deserve the heating allowance?


Although I'm not in favour of universal benefits I have to agree with you. An income for two people of over £30k isn't megabucks. 
OH and I have more than that, pension and other income accrued after over sixty years of work between us, with OH giving well-paid employment to very many people as well as supporting local businesses through her purchasing policy.
We were taxed when we were earning money, taxed on what we did to make a profit, taxed on the profit and now we're both being taxed on our income from pensions and savings. We have neither of us ever needed to claim benefits of any kind, thankfully. We paid every penny of tax due throughout our lives. 
If you want a cut-off point for these benefits then £50k might be more reasonable although £25k per person isn't a millionaire's income by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe it should be set at the higher income tax level.
Whatever, don't imagine that a retired couple on £30k are living high on the hog. Comfortable, yes, mega-rich, no way.
People who have worked hard all their lives and earned a reasonable income shouldn't be expected to suffer a severe drop in their living standatds in retirement, especially when you take into consideration the cost to the taxpayer of funding benefits for those who haven't been fortunate enough to earn above the average or even the average wage in their working lives.
We pay quite large amounts of tax in the U.K. helping fund services we don't use and wars we disapprove of.


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## GallineraGirl (Aug 13, 2011)

Stravinsky said:


> For sure, Terual, Cuenca ... Aragon in general.
> So how do they work that???
> 
> A little house on the coast in the Costa Blanca may be warmer in winter than the UK, but 100 kms inland its maybe colder!!! So do they penalise some because others "dont need it"?


Depends on how high up you live. We are not much more than 30mins drive from the CB, but at 450m we need central heating from November through to early April. I have been snowed in for a week in a mountain village near here (700m up)!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Well, there's one OAP who's had a rise. I have just heard that the Queen will receive 5% more this year than last and she had a similar rise last year.
If this Government were serious about tackling the deficit in a fair and equitable way they'd collect the tax squirreled away in U.K. tax havens around the world from Jersey to the Virgin Islands - £trillions of unpaid tax due which if paid would wipe out a sizeable chunk of the deficit, a deficit incurred mainly because of the actions of greedy and unprincipled bankers. 
I do not recall the deficit being the result of millions of pensioners living like nmillionaires on their pensions and costing taxpayers the earth through reckless abuse of the NHS. I seem to remember that the likes of the bosses of RBS, Northern Rock and Lloyds had something to do with it although their ineptitude didn't result in them suffering any great financial loss. They walked away with huge pensions and pay-offs, having ruined the lives of millions of ordinary working people.
I don't receive WFA, I don't need it and were I in the UK I'd not claim any other benefits such as bus passes or TVlicences. The £10 'Christmas present' is an insult and the expense in giving it is probably more than the amount given. I think that universal benefits should be scrapped for those over a certain income whether they are benefits for those in work such as Child Benefit or benefits for the retired. Give the money to those in need. There's no stigma in means-testing in 2013.
But it's time to lay off people who through a lifetime of hard honest work have managed to secure a comfortable life in retirement. Why should someone who had a good lifestyle whilst working not enjoy a similar lifestyle wherever they choose to retire? Abolish incentive and everyone will suffer.
We are not wealthy people but neither are we poor. Yet real wealth these days, the kind that cushions you against whatever misfortune life may throw your way, starts at well above £30k per couple. As long as those with less turn their sights on those with a little more than them and ignore the real leeches and parasites in our society things will never change.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> If a couple of pensioners have £31000 a year, what are they, if not rich?


No, they're not rich. Consider this scenario and you'll see what I mean.
People who retire after thirty or forty years working in the NHS, Police Force, Civil Service or teaching and who have reached senior positions in these organisations will receive a Final Salary Pension Scheme based on final year's earnings plus length of service. So someone earning £35k a year, only a bit more than the average UK wage, who had given forty years of service might receive around half of their final year's income as pension, let's say £15k. Add the basic SRP to that brings it up to £21k. Average earnings for people in senior positions would be more than that but I'm not talking above £60k to £80k for most people. So the pension would be commensurately more.
Now add the spouse's earnings. Most people tend to marry people they work with or who have similar jobs and incomes these days. So two teachers each with a pension of £15k plus the SRP for a married couple would be in receipt of more than £31k. This of course before tax.
I think such people would be astonished to lear that they are 'rich'.
In spite of the Government trying to convince the public otherwise, the majority of teachers, nurses, health care workers, social service personnel and so on work hard and do an excellent job for society. Compared to their equuivalent in the private sector, their salaries are not that huge.
An example: a skilled IT professional working in London can earn a six-figure salary.
An IT teacher whose skills are sorely needed for our future generations to acquire essential skills will receive less than half that.
We really should concentrate on the obscene and widening gap between the mega-rich, the truly rich and the rest of us.
Those on benefits have some measure of protection. It's the working poor and the squeezed middle who are suffering.
Now I'm beginning to think thatgovernment FSS pensions which are paid in part by the tax payer aren't really justifiable in the current climate. But that's a different issue.
What we shouldn't do is fall for the old 'divide and rule'. When less than 5% of the population of the UK own over 95% of the wealth that kind of thinking will keep us all in our 'place'....which is very much at the crumb-receiving end of the table.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Love Matt...


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

ScottJaniceKyleErinFreya said:


> Your point being? Just because they have an income of 31000 they are wealthy?
> Surely if they have paid there share of taxes etc they are entitled to the heating allowance of what, £200 a year ?
> Do you not agree with it?
> Whats your thoughts on someone who hasnt worked a day in his life, contributed nothing, use's his dole money(probably partialy funded by his cash in hand jobs) to pay for holidays, flat screen tvs designer clothes etc etc etc does he deserve the heating allowance?


A pensioner couple on £31000 a year -consider the following:
They will probably have no mortgage or children to support.
May have downsized their house, so lower maintenance.
Probably have a fat sum in savings
£25,000 is the average wage, apparently in the UK, and that has to cover rent, mortgage, children etc, so pensioners do indeed seem rich.
£200 is not going to make much difference to the pensioner couple on £31000!
As someone who also worked for years, paid taxes etc of course I wouldn't want WFP going to someone who gets more in benefits than in work, but it surely isn't needed by pensioners on the above stated income!
lane:lane:


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Pensioners living in Europe are a soft and popular target in the U.K., for in the U.K., many of the populace are somewhat jealous of those that perhaps live, what appears to them to be a better life.

This is often reported in the U.K. press especially when the news is bad.

Many expat pensioners have paid and still pay taxes to the U.K. coffers. I believe because of this all of us should have resource to political representation in the U.K. parliament. What is needed is our own M.P.

This I believe is done in France, for the French who live elsewhere than France


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

My pensions in total add up to a lot less than that - OAP for which I had to pay in 44 years and three employment pensions that add up to £220 per month and get taxed. The thieving bar stewards that form this government sit on their backsides doing b*gger all, drawing fatcat salaries, cheat on their expenses and get a nice fat pension at the end. Many of them have second incomes as Directors in private businesses. Grrrrr

WE even get NO pensions credit, tax credits, social security top-ups or anything.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> My pensions in total add up to a lot less than that - OAP for which I had to pay in 44 years and three employment pensions that add up to £220 per month and get taxed. The thieving bar stewards that form this government sit on their backsides doing b*gger all, drawing fatcat salaries, cheat on their expenses and get a nice fat pension at the end. Many of them have second incomes as Directors in private businesses. Grrrrr
> 
> WE even get NO pensions credit, tax credits, social security top-ups or anything.


You pay tax on 220 per month?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

jimenato said:


> You pay tax on 220 per month?


They take my OAP off my allowances and then apply what is left to the other pensions.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

baldilocks said:


> They take my OAP off my allowances and then apply what is left to the other pensions.


but only if you are above the income tax threshold?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> A pensioner couple on £31000 a year -consider the following:
> They will probably have no mortgage or children to support.
> May have downsized their house, so lower maintenance.
> Probably have a fat sum in savings
> ...



With respect, what has all that got to do with it
I didn't say £200 would make much difference. I don't think it would. It certainly wouldn't to me. 
I was merely pointing out that £31k isn't great wealth...because it isn't. Any person or couple with that income is not 'rich' - comfortable, maybe. Certainly not poor. 
The average wage is £28k something, I'm sure. But that's an average for industrial/manual workers. 
The fact is that some people earn more than others. I'm not talking about people who have enormous unearned wealth. I'm talking about hard-working professional and business people who surely deserve a decent life in their retirement.
Why shouldn't people who have earned above average in their working lives enjoy a good income in their retirement?
We like many others have taken a severe drop in our expected earnings as interest levels are so abysmally low. Prudent people who saved during their working lives for a decent standard of living in retirement are now subsidising feckless younger people who borrowed above their means and are now paying off their huge debts at practically zero interest rates.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> A pensioner couple on £31000 a year -consider the following:
> They will probably have no mortgage or children to support.
> May have downsized their house, so lower maintenance.
> Probably have a fat sum in savings
> ...


We were both wrong Median UK wage up to April 2012 was £26500perannum. 
It will have risen by a couple of % so must be around £27k now.

But low pay is the curse of the UK. An enormous amount of the welfare budget goes on Working Family Tax Credits to top up meagre wages - a direct subsidy from the taxpayer to the employer.

Instead of the UK Government taking anything from pensioners, why not go for the tax evaders and dodgers?

No, easier to divide and rule by taking away benefits from people who have worked for maybe over forty years and may have been in receipt of a good salary.

The more I think about it the more that it seems to me that whilst it may be the case that better-off pensioners can live without free tv licences, bus passes, WFA etc. why should they be picked on whilst billionaires and global corporations operating in the UK avoid or in some cases evade tax?

It's out of all proportion to focus on retired people. Treat EVERYBODY fairly...after all, aren't we supposed to all be in this together?


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## Dunpleecin (Dec 20, 2012)

Heat tax. Now I've heard it all.


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## Nugget_Hound (Jun 13, 2013)

I think if the big corporations paid their fare share of tax we wouldn't be talking about these issues.


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## Allie-P (Feb 11, 2013)

extranjero said:


> would have been fairer to stop it for pensioners on incomes over£30,000 wherever they lived.I've heard people say that they don't need it;so why did they apply for it the first place-it's not thrust upon them, they have to apply!How many millionaires are claiming it?




Those, in receipt of a state pension, receive it automatically. 60+'s, not in receipt, are required to apply.....

The same argument was ongoing in the UK, regarding ' rich' pensioners receiving free bus passes....it was presumed that this was automatic - in fact, a written application was required.

Spanish expats are an obvious target ! There is a misconception, in the UK, that we are all stinking rich......

Wasn't there an EU appeal/ directive recently awarding this ' Benefit' to all expats, who had reached their 60th year, whilst living in Spain ??

As far as the politicians are concerned { any party !!} All's fair, as long as their subsidised bar continues....


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Allie-P said:


> Those, in receipt of a state pension, receive it automatically. 60+'s, not in receipt, are required to apply.....
> 
> The same argument was ongoing in the UK, regarding ' rich' pensioners receiving free bus passes....it was presumed that this was automatic - in fact, a written application was required.
> 
> ...


that was last year................. it's all change again apparently


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## Allie-P (Feb 11, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> that was last year................. it's all change again apparently



Oh dear !!......

I will keep alerted to the changes.


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