# Can you trust Thai lawyer??



## kangurzoz

*Did anyone from the "FORUM" have any previous or current experiences in dealing with Siam Legal International or Thailand Property Group from Pattaya and can give me some feedback as to the reliability and overall performance of those two companies. The most important question is: It's safe to rely on lawyers in Thailand to assist in property sales when the owner is still abroad??? All yours comments will be greatly appreciated. 
CHEERS*


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## singto

In a word - NO.


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## Ted88888

singto said:


> In a word - NO.


Well, the real issue is can you trust ANY lawyer, ANY country. 

No.

Don't forget lawyers make their money unraveling complex things - so it is in their best interest for things to be as complicated as they possibly can be.

I've used a lawyer here and was quite pleased with the quality of his work AND his sincerity. 

Personally, I wouldn't distrust a Thai lawyer any more or less than in any other country.


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## singto

Ted88888 said:


> Well, the real issue is can you trust ANY lawyer, ANY country.
> 
> No.
> 
> Don't forget lawyers make their money unraveling complex things - so it is in their best interest for things to be as complicated as they possibly can be.
> 
> I've used a lawyer here and was quite pleased with the quality of his work AND his sincerity.
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't distrust a Thai lawyer any more or less than in any other country.


Bottom line is if they're working for you, they're making money. If they sold a problem, their income from you stops. Here in Thailand I've had lawyers come to me after telling me their fee and tell me they forgot this or that and I had to pay more. I didn't pay....but....be careful.


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## synthia

I've known new ex-pat business owners who had government officials come by and say there was a mistake, and they had not collected enough money for some government stamp or license or something, so they owed another 30,000 baht, and, gee just pay it to me now and I'll take care of everything. And both of them did it, handed over the money right there, because they remembered the guy from when they paid the first time.

It isn't just the lawyers.


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## klikster

Generally, no .. don't trust lawyers. That being said, I believe the US Embassy Bangkok website has a list of law firms they consider reputable.

Never trust a local property company, especially one run by a farang. Some are still touting the "company formation" route for buying land. It has actually never been legal .. just generally ignored in the past.

Never consider doing anything absentee in Thailand that involves substantial amounts of cash.


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## Fiscalo

I am a lawyer myself. The replies are BS! Like with everything in life, buying a home, car or whatever, leasing something like a house car or whatever, drawing a contract, going to a hospital etc. It Is Up To YOU! 
Meet the man/woman. Be sure to have a huge list wih your questions and demand an answer. Do NOT pay in advance. The list goes on!
These are some of the advises I give my own clients.
Trust is what you earn, not get!


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## klikster

Fiscalo said:


> I am a lawyer myself. The replies are BS!


Fiscalo, do you practice in Thailand? Have you ever done business in Thailand?


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## Fiscalo

I do Not practice in Thailand but did an do a lot of business with two Thai lawyers drawing contracts etc.
Besides that Thailand is not different than whatever other country. In fact Thai law is very basic and easy to understand.
Biggest problem is if you have to go to court, that is why I advise people how to avoid that. But in basic it is the same like for instance Holland, where I come from.


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## klikster

Fiscalo said:


> I do Not practice in Thailand but did an do a lot of business with two Thai lawyers drawing contracts etc.
> Besides that Thailand is not different than whatever other country. In fact Thai law is very basic and easy to understand.
> Biggest problem is if you have to go to court, that is why I advise people how to avoid that. But in basic it is the same like for instance Holland, where I come from.


In light of another post by the OP where he asked about essentially giving power of attorney to sell his property in his absence .. and surely, understanding that there is no "escrow" in Thailand .. do you still claim that all the posts recommending that he not trust Thai attorneys is .. BS?

Did you draw contracts that are ultimately legal in Thailand? If so, you must be fluent (reading and writing) in Thai.


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## Zark

Fiscalo said:


> I am a lawyer myself. The replies are BS!!


I don't think the replies are BS. People are reporting their experiences with lawyers and they have not always been good. 

Lawyers - as a profession - tend to have the same level of credibility as used car salesmen and politicians. Yes, every individual needs to be judged on their own merits, I would agree with that. But people do tend to have a wariness of the profession.


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## Fiscalo

klikster said:


> In light of another post by the OP where he asked about essentially giving power of attorney to sell his property in his absence .. and surely, understanding that there is no "escrow" in Thailand .. do you still claim that all the posts recommending that he not trust Thai attorneys is .. BS?
> 
> Did you draw contracts that are ultimately legal in Thailand? If so, you must be fluent (reading and writing) in Thai.


Again, trust is something you deserve. And if you are that simple to give power of whatever to somebody you DON'T know, it is asking for trouble. I even would not trust my own family and friends with these matters. Please grow up and don't blame other people for mistaks You (or the OP) made. My experience is that most people visit a lawyer without knowing what they really want, do you think we are mindreaders or magicians?

Ever heard of translators? As I told before, Thai law is very basic, a kind of framework from where you can draw a contract. And believe me, also Thailand knows it's grey and black sectors. It is forbidden to draw a contract against any article in Thai law. For the rest you are free unless one party has significant more profit. Jurisprudence about that is available.

But as usual, many people are Cheap Charlies. Think lawyers, especially the better ones, are Far to expensive.


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## klikster

Fiscalo said:


> Again, trust is something you deserve. And if you are that simple to give power of whatever to somebody you DON'T know, it is asking for trouble. I even would not trust my own family and friends with these matters. *Please grow up and don't blame other people for mistaks You (or the OP) made.* My experience is that most people visit a lawyer without knowing what they really want, do you think we are mindreaders or magicians?
> 
> Ever heard of translators? As I told before, Thai law is very basic, a kind of framework from where you can draw a contract. And believe me, also Thailand knows it's grey and black sectors. It is forbidden to draw a contract against any article in Thai law. For the rest you are free unless one party has significant more profit. Jurisprudence about that is available.
> 
> But as usual, many people are Cheap Charlies. Think lawyers, especially the better ones, are Far to expensive.


Since you didn't answer my question about your fluency in Thai (reading and writing Thai script), I assume that you are not. If that is the case, not being able to read Thai law in the original and cultural context, how can you know whether a contract/agreement violates Thai law?

It seems that besides dancing around the comments that answered your "_not so polite_" comment, you are now suggesting that *I* am the one who should "grow up" for trying to pass along good advice?

I think you have just given ample evidence that many of the responses by others is relatively accurate .. and for good reason.


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## King Silk

There must be good honest Lawyers in LOS but horror stories abound, and of course they are the only ones you hear about. When all goes well nothings said is it?


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## Fiscalo

klikster said:


> Since you didn't answer my question about your fluency in Thai (reading and writing Thai script), I assume that you are not. If that is the case, not being able to read Thai law in the original and cultural context, how can you know whether a contract/agreement violates Thai law?
> 
> It seems that besides dancing around the comments that answered your "_not so polite_" comment, you are now suggesting that *I* am the one who should "grow up" for trying to pass along good advice?
> 
> I think you have just given ample evidence that many of the responses by others is relatively accurate .. and for good reason.


Thai law is available in English. Even on Internet! I have the books, Thai translated by well known professors.
Besides that... Law is not something you invent as a country. Basic, law is the same in every civilized country exept for the details and jurisprudence. Law in general is copied from other countries and adapted in the legal system of the countrie. The basics are Roman and French law (Napoleon).


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## singto

Fiscalo said:


> Thai law is available in English. Even on Internet! I have the books, Thai translated by well known professors.
> Besides that... Law is not something you invent as a country. Basic, law is the same in every civilized country exept for the details and jurisprudence. Law in general is copied from other countries and adapted in the legal system of the countrie. The basics are Roman and French law (Napoleon).


There are many aspects of Thai law that are no more the same as British law is the same as Iraqi law or vice-versa.

I've lived here for fourteen years and the vast majority of my dealings with lawyers have been filled with, "we'll do this, we'll do that," and in the end, what I got was, "give me more money." I know one or two Thai lawyers who are quite good, but they are most definitely the minority.

Fiscalo - don't take offense to it - this is how many, many expats feel about Thai lawyers, and in some countries, lawyers in general. When I lived in the U.S. my lawyers kept me out of jail on more than one occasion and my dealings with them were problem free.

Oh, and BTW - I do read Thai and if by any chance there were something I didn't understand, I'm smart enough to use someone who has a great comprehension of the language than I.


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## skycop51

I use an American in Thailand, that redid my will, for US. He gives me alot of free advice and I like him. If he can not help me he tells me where to go etc. Please do not get nasty with me!
I like him, but understand why many of you all are cautious.


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## petengade

You may be lucky and get a good Thai lawyer, seems that most of the Thais look on us as an easy target to rip off,
when I had my house built in C/Mai the lawyer said she will find an ex building inspector to supervise the building as we were in the UK, 
when I flew out six months into the build, found windows in the kitchen below the top of to- be kitchen units, door leading to outside of kitchen on wrong side of the house (not as to plan) the lawyer said no charge for ex building inspector when I asked why he had not done what he was going to be paid to do,
So it was obvious she was on the make.


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## petengade

Hi Skycop,
Are you living in C/Mai? if yes how are you coping with the smoke haze, as I know you have breathing problems?


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## Fiscalo

Thai also rip off their own kind. Thai people are short term thinkers, you cannot change that, juswt keep it in mind.
Like I told before, I would not leave that building for 6 months even with my family. Would you do the same in your home country? I guess not!


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## tamsin

In my vast experience with Thai lawyers in the Land of Shifting Sands is that the problem is that Thai Law has just so many translations/variables, open to a myriad of translations, there is no such thing as 'precedent' in Thai Law for instance (so the farang who won a court case where he actually got his name on the title deed to the land he actually paid for is a lone soul here), and most Thai lawyers are simply not up to scratch.

The farang lawyer is not supposed to be a lawyer (not on the list of jobs for farang here) and will shaft you much more readily than a Thai. I personally know of a couple who came and were advised to take out a 30+30+30 year LEASE on a piece of land, from a farang owner, by the way, when no such lease exists in Thai law. Now. I ask you. He must have known that. 

So the question of whether to trust a 'Thai' lawyer is merely based on ignorance and prejudice.


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## Fiscalo

tamsin said:


> In my vast experience with Thai lawyers in the Land of Shifting Sands is that the problem is that Thai Law has just so many translations/variables, open to a myriad of translations, there is no such thing as 'precedent' in Thai Law for instance (so the farang who won a court case where he actually got his name on the title deed to the land he actually paid for is a lone soul here), and most Thai lawyers are simply not up to scratch.
> 
> The farang lawyer is not supposed to be a lawyer (not on the list of jobs for farang here) and will shaft you much more readily than a Thai. I personally know of a couple who came and were advised to take out a 30+30+30 year LEASE on a piece of land, from a farang owner, by the way, when no such lease exists in Thai law. Now. I ask you. He must have known that.
> 
> So the question of whether to trust a 'Thai' lawyer is merely based on ignorance and prejudice.



The 30 +30 +30 year hire of immovable property exists; under Title IV, Chapter 1, art. 540 of the Civil and Commercial Code.


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## tamsin

Fiscalo said:


> The 30 +30 +30 year hire of immovable property exists; under Title IV, Chapter 1, art. 540 of the Civil and Commercial Code.


As far as LAND is concerned, a foreigner is entitled to a lease of not more than THIRTY YEARS. If, what in effect, is a 90 year lease was enforceable, this place would be teeming with retirees and no old geezers whining about how they'd found a good 'un and put it in (usually) her name, rather than risk building a multi million baht house on a measly 30 year lease. 

In actual fact, a poster on another forum related that he had already been told by his landlord - for you are only a tenant after all - that the land on which he had built a house and lived in for 27 years would NOT be renewable when the THIRTY YEAR RULE UNDER THAI LAW was up. Nice of him to have given the poor ******* notice.


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## Pedroesp

*escuse me Sir, Can I ask you please*

Hello, sorry for disturb you

Its possible to contact with you for talk about tourist visa shengen for go to Spain?
I have a girlfriend since one year, and Embassy denied our requirements, we have all correct documents..tomorrow I will know why it not possible to get

I am upset with my lady Waraporn, and we need help from a professional. Perhaps you can help us.

Pleased

Bests regards,

Pedro





Fiscalo said:


> I am a lawyer myself. The replies are BS! Like with everything in life, buying a home, car or whatever, leasing something like a house car or whatever, drawing a contract, going to a hospital etc. It Is Up To YOU!
> Meet the man/woman. Be sure to have a huge list wih your questions and demand an answer. Do NOT pay in advance. The list goes on!
> These are some of the advises I give my own clients.
> Trust is what you earn, not get!


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## Guest

Please tell us what the Embassy tells you tomorrow. If you have all the paperwork for a Schengen visa, an address in Spain, the means to support your girlfriend, then there should be no problem for a tourist visa.


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## King Silk

petengade said:


> Hi Skycop,
> Are you living in C/Mai? if yes how are you coping with the smoke haze, as I know you have breathing problems?



Hey!:focus::focus::focus:


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## Guest

Fiscalo, Pedroesp cannot PM yet because he hasn't reached 5 posts (an automatic spam-prevention forum setting).


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## King Silk

When I think of how the UK has allowed itself to be bought up by thousands of peeps from all over the World, I cannot but feel an respectful understanding for the way Thailand protects it's Land.....aggravating though it is at times.


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## Fiscalo

frogblogger said:


> Fiscalo, Pedroesp cannot PM yet because he hasn't reached 5 posts (an automatic spam-prevention forum setting).


Ok understood. I prefer pm in cases like this. Would you please remove my post?


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## Pedroesp

*sorry, but thnx*

ESCUSE ME, I forget to post 5 before..But thanks to yours and Fiscalo for beeing attended

Remove my post, I am doing wrong now

Pedro


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## gleeglee

Only contract written in Thai are legal in Thailand and we have a very good trustworthy lawyer in Bangkok who looks after our interests in Pattaya.
Also you need to have it translated by a reputable translation shop approved by the government never use one the lawyer recommends


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## Serendipity2

klikster said:


> Generally, no .. don't trust lawyers. That being said, I believe the US Embassy Bangkok website has a list of law firms they consider reputable.
> 
> Never trust a local property company, especially one run by a farang. Some are still touting the "company formation" route for buying land. It has actually never been legal .. just generally ignored in the past.
> 
> Never consider doing anything absentee in Thailand that involves substantial amounts of cash.



klikster, 

You trust a lawyer recommended by the US Embassy? I guess you also trust the US government and the tooth fairy. They are going to recommend their buddies. The US Embassy [and most ALL embassies] is principally there to gather intelligence on foreign countries and their own American countrymen AND to give away our tax money as foreign aid while living in the lap of luxury. Trust NO lawyers - unless you absolutely have to. Then cross your fingers and say a prayer that 'your' attorney is truly out to help you. I think you're better off with a local attorney than one recommended by the US Embassy. Personal opinion

Serendipity2


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## King Silk

Serendipity2 said:


> klikster,
> 
> You trust a lawyer recommended by the US Embassy? I guess you also trust the US government and the tooth fairy. They are going to recommend their buddies. The US Embassy [and most ALL embassies] is principally there to gather intelligence on foreign countries and their own American countrymen AND to give away our tax money as foreign aid while living in the lap of luxury. Trust NO lawyers - unless you absolutely have to. Then cross your fingers and say a prayer that 'your' attorney is truly out to help you. I think you're better off with a local attorney than one recommended by the US Embassy. Personal opinion
> 
> Serendipity2


Absolutely S2 :clap2::clap2::clap2:


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## Mindaugas

well, i really not understand why all write about lawyers so bad. I work for the lawyer here in Bangkok, he employed me last year to help him with russian market, and i'm very happy to work with him. Sure everyone can say that i would like to support him and write nice about him, but reality is that this guy try very hard for his customers, and he has his company 9 years in bkk without any bad comments from past customers.
So my advice is this, before you choose lawyer, think is it better pay more and get proffesional services or you want to be cheated by no professional ones but cheap ?


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## Serendipity2

Mindaugas said:


> well, i really not understand why all write about lawyers so bad. I work for the lawyer here in Bangkok, he employed me last year to help him with russian market, and i'm very happy to work with him. Sure everyone can say that i would like to support him and write nice about him, but reality is that this guy try very hard for his customers, and he has his company 9 years in bkk without any bad comments from past customers.
> So my advice is this, before you choose lawyer, think is it better pay more and get proffesional services or you want to be cheated by no professional ones but cheap ?



Mindaugas,

I doubt most of us think ALL lawyers are bad - just that most seem to put money ahead of their client's needs as their chief priority. It doesn't help that they double bill their clients either - a very common practice. Nor that they seemingly can never answer a simple question but always have to get back to you. 

I would also point out that we seldom go to an attorney or need the services of an attorney when things are swell. We normally have to engage their services when the $hit has hit the fan and we're either in trouble or need them to navigate the arcane labyrinths of the law which is purposely opaque to discourage and confuse those of us who like life simple. Most of us adhere to the KISS system in our lives - "Keep It Simple, Stupid" but that's virtually never the case with lawyers. With them, as with politicians [most of which ARE lawyers] it's about their own care and feeding. So, while there are genuine lawyers out there who DO try to help their clients, I would say those are the minority - unless you're filthy rich. Most of us aren't.

Serendipity2


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## KhwaamLap

Getting back to the original question. I would certainly not leave a Thai lawyer to sell my house for me. There is a big racket here with reposetions (houses, land,etc) - ever see an advert (even in Thai) for land auctions for repo'd land? Bet you haven't. Why? because the people that do the repo only inform a select few so their is no competion to the price - it sells for rock bottom. Leave a lawyer with the 'task' of selling your loevly gouse and his brother will suddenly find himself the new owner for a song - and it was all sue to the recession don't you know!

There have also been innumerable incidents of lawyers running off with proceeds from sales, wills, repo's etc - as said, no escrow accounts here


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## KhwaamLap

tamsin said:


> As far as LAND is concerned, a foreigner is entitled to a lease of not more than THIRTY YEARS. If, what in effect, is a 90 year lease was enforceable, this place would be teeming with retirees and no old geezers whining about how they'd found a good 'un and put it in (usually) her name, rather than risk building a multi million baht house on a measly 30 year lease.
> 
> In actual fact, a poster on another forum related that he had already been told by his landlord - for you are only a tenant after all - that the land on which he had built a house and lived in for 27 years would NOT be renewable when the THIRTY YEAR RULE UNDER THAI LAW was up. Nice of him to have given the poor ******* notice.


Yep, land is not immovable property(even though it is in a literal sense) - but the house could have been - that's why he needed a good lawyer, not just a typical one!

I think I would havemade a date with a bulldozer before leaving my 30 years lapsed if I was this guy.

Although the 30+30+30 is not a direct legal avenue, a contractual clause to the affect that any properties on said land at the end of the lease period would have to be purchased by the land owner at full market price (insert legalease here for definition) unless the lease was renewed or the propery had reached 89 years if standing whcihever is later.
Thereby making the landlord pay up of offer the 90 years - and then he gets his 90 year old house!

Of course it may be hard to get someone to sign it - just get a better lawyer than they have


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## Serendipity2

KhwaamLap said:


> Yep, land is not immovable property(even though it is in a literal sense) - but the house could have been - that's why he needed a good lawyer, not just a typical one!
> 
> I think I would havemade a date with a bulldozer before leaving my 30 years lapsed if I was this guy.
> 
> Although the 30+30+30 is not a direct legal avenue, a contractual clause to the affect that any properties on said land at the end of the lease period would have to be purchased by the land owner at full market price (insert legalease here for definition) unless the lease was renewed or the propery had reached 89 years if standing whcihever is later.
> Thereby making the landlord pay up of offer the 90 years - and then he gets his 90 year old house!
> 
> Of course it may be hard to get someone to sign it - just get a better lawyer than they have



KhwaamLap,

Another strategy is to build your home as a modular that can be easily taken apart and moved to a new site. When you get close to that 30th year begin negotiating a new lease or a sale of a plot with the home. If that Thai is greedy he will say, "So sorry" and then YOU spring YOUR trap, unbolt the home from the perimeter foundation, jack it up using hydraulic jacks, put on a trailer in sections and give him the one finger salute as you're heading down the way - leaving him with a septic tank and drain field and a perimeter concrete foundation. That is how to bargain. Never have just one exit strategy. Have at least three. 


Serendipity2


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## Mindaugas

Yes, actually maybe i made mistake in my last post, i'm talking about not about thai lawyers, but about professional foreigner (not these who collect the documents and mark up price on the invoice) but people who really know their job and try their best to help to sort customers problems.


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