# Netherlands



## cewen_fae

Hi,
My husband and I are looking at possibly moving to The Netherlands. (We are currenly in the USA) My husband would be looking for a job as a Civil Engineer and I was wondering if that was a well paid job there. I just mean well paid enough to get by ok.

We were hoping to visit in August. I'd also appreciate any opinions on which areas to visit to see about living there. Affordable areas that are safe. Somewhere near a university perhaps, so he could get his Masters. We’re 27 and have no kids, so schools aren’t important. Any area with affordable hotels would help as well. 

Thanks very much, Nikki


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## cewen_fae

I'd also appreciate any estimate of how much money per day we would need to visit. 
Thanks again


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## Bevdeforges

Given the difficulties getting a visa for just about any European country these days, what makes you choose the Netherlands? I only ask because, if you're planning on living there for the long term, you are both going to have to learn Dutch - and speaking it before you apply for the visa and/or jobs would be a big plus.

Residence permit for the Netherlands - The Royal Netherlands Embassy in Washington DC

This is the site to get you started on the details, and as you'll see, it's the employer who sets the visa process in motion. It's doubtful the government would approve a work permit unless they felt the job in question paid an adequate salary to support the family in question. You should also check on what your work status would be if you move to the Netherlands on his visa.
Cheers,
Bev


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## cewen_fae

Honestly we haven't choosen it, just looking into it. We're trying to figure out where we would like to go. We aren't against learning any language needed. We were looking at europe because it's so well connected. We though it would be easy to travel. If anyone knows any countries better suited for us I would appreciate any opinons. Thanks again


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## Bevdeforges

The main issue in moving anywhere these days seems to be that of getting a long-stay visa. The usual process is that you find the job first, and then your employer sponsors you for a visa. This normally involves being able to justify hiring a foreigner (or for Europe, a non-European) over a local with the right to work.

At the moment, I don't know of any EU country where you can move as an American and then start looking for work unless you have family ties or some claim on EU nationality.
Cheers,
Bev


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## gerrit

I'm from neighbouring Belgium and have many friends in Holland. Let me first assure you that, while speaking Dutch is undeniable important, it is possible to find employment without it. Check websites such as Undutchables which cater specifically to foreign language jobs (there is another agency as well, but I forgot the name, something with Language Jobs in it though). Apart from that recruitment agencies such as Kelly Services or Randstad tend to be quite helpful from my experience. The better your degree and previous professional experience, the better the chance to find the job without learning Dutch first ; Dutch is my mothertongue and I can safely say it is not an easy language to learn. If I read messageboards in Dutch (I mainly read political ones in order to somewhat follow the ongoings in my native country) I still am amazed of the countless grammatical mistakes people make, and those are people who have never known a different day-to-day language than Dutch.


Don't let the above scare you though. The Netherlands is, here is the good news, one of the nicer countries in Europe in my opinion. 

It is very very clean, public transport and facilities are excellent. The cityscape and landscapes are quite diverse. From ancient and quite romantic medieval architecture in Utrecht to "everything goes" cosmopolitan Amsterdam, more cosy yet charming smaller cities, and more culture-orientated/event-orientated cities (eg Groningen) ... there's a bit for everyone. The landscape is very flat but the countless rivers, lakes and open fields are a pleasure for hiking or biking. Note that for cycling, no country in Europe has safer and better maintained roads than the Netherlands.

In terms of culture, you got a bit for all. You like the disco, the nightlife, the pubs? Plenty of them. Concerts? All major bands visit Holland while on tour, and the local music scene has plenty of good local bands as well. Theatre is widespread. 

You ask for universities. Almost all big cities have at least one. Utrecht, Maastricht and Groningen are very often considered student-orientated cities, but also Rotterdam, Amsterdam, etc have at least 1 or more universities. 

Dutch people tend to be very openminded in the cities, and their English is quite good so while learning Dutch you won't have issues making yourself understood.

The housing is one problem, waiting lists for flats can be very long, up to several years. The benefit you have however is that priority is given to people moving from far away, so in the housing agencies you will immediately be amongst the first ranked in the list when coming from as far as the USA. Check for "woningbouwstichting" on the web as many of those agencies are named in Dutch, and send them an email as certainly they speak English. Rent is very expensive compared to some other EU countries, however salaries tend to be higher than in most EU countries as well.

All in all, I'd say the Netherlands are ideal for a pleasant, vibrant life in a tolerant society with very open people. I cannot comment on the working permit thing as I am EU citizen, but the Dutch embassy should be able to help you as far as your employer cannot give you all info you need.

Veel succes! (which translates as "good luck")


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## gerrit

Bevdeforges said:


> At the moment, I don't know of any EU country where you can move as an American and then start looking for work unless you have family ties or some claim on EU nationality.
> Cheers,
> Bev


True, which is why she should check those employment agencies' offers first of those agencies that specifically cater to jobs requiring foreign workforces.

If the opening poster is really determined, an option is to enter the country and just leave once every 3 (?) months, return a few hours later and get a new stamp in the passport with a tourist visa, repeat this procedure until a working permit has been arranged. Few friends of mine do this when they left Europe without looking for work first. I'd not recommend it due to the insecurity about how long it will take to get the job, however if one is really determined and maybe can secure very cheap accomodation (with friends or so) it is worth a try. A friend of mine moved to Israel without job, she renews her tourist visa every 3 months and lives for free with a good friend she has there ; if the topic starter would have any friends in NL (?) this may be an option if no other options would exist. Again, I wouldn't recommend it, just saying some people have done it and ended up allright with a regular working permit in the end.



Oh, and to answer the question about the costs for a visit... Well, depends what area and what city. Especially the big cities tend to be expensive so it's not exactly a backpacker paradise unless you can do without any comfort in a dodgy hostel (I did it once and wouldn't recommend it )


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## Bevdeforges

Due to changes within the EU, the old "duck out after 90 days and duck back in again" doesn't work anymore. Technically speaking, within the EU it's 90 days (for an American or other nationality that doesn't require a visa) in any 180 day period. So you now have to leave for 90 days before you can return.

Practically speaking, on entry they may not check for an exit stamp before they re-stamp your passport - but when you go to apply for a visa or any kind of residence document they do tend to check your passport for the appropriate exit and entry stamps. 
Cheers,
Bev


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## gerrit

Really? Hmm, other nations don't take things that strictly it seems. When I lived in Turkey (where I would have loved to stay but left because employer didn't arrange working permit properly) some others didn't even bother to request a working permit and have lived and worked there hopping across the border and back every 3 months for years. in Israel, about 4 or 5% of workforces are illegally working on constantly renewed tourist visas. In Morocco, some just don't bother to request proper documents and take a day off in Spanish exclave Ceuta to get the passport stamped again.

In all honesty, some criticise the EU for its bureaucracy but I am still very thankful to have the EU. What a luxury we have to be able to live in so many countries without even needing to request any working permits?

Anyways, as for the original question, it is indeed better to get a job secured before leaving but from as far as the US it may be practically difficult to arrange the necessary job interviews. Some companies may want to do it over the phone, some don't. I would be surprised though that, especially with summer coming, the demand for new workforces wouldn't at least allow for a temporary job as a waiter or hotel receptionist or so. OK, not exactly the best type of job, but meanwhile you can network your way to a more permanent job. Sometimes this type of loopholes is what you need to open the door to a country. When I last visited Norway I was surprised how many foreigners were working in hotels and restaurants because this was the only job that opened the door, most of them were meanwhile continuously jobhunting for a more stable job.


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## cewen_fae

I really appreciate both of your opinions! We would want to get jobs first just for stability no matter where we go. And thanks Gerrit your info about housing and jobs is helpful! If you don't mind saying, how was Turkey? (I'm just trying to look at pretty much everywhere.)


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## gerrit

I think this very much depends on if someone feels comfortable moving to a country with lot of similarities to their native home, or weither one prefers to be swamped in a different culture with no feeling of comfort of knowing how everything works but with a whole new way of life to immerse yourself in.

Personally, I found Turkey fantastic in every possible way and would much rather return to Turkey than to move to any other EU country. In fact, I would like to return no matter what, it's just that it can be very hard to find a job with a legal working permit arranged by the employer. I would in the first place have not left Turkey if the employer had arranged that permit smoothly. Personally I don't like the insecure feeling of having to hide that you're working illegally, so I wish to have everything neat and legal ; some others have worked in Turkey for years without a valid permit. To get a job with that valid permit is quite hard, if I'd be offered one I'd be on the first plane back to Istanbul.

In my opinion Middle Eastern architecture, music, etc is nicer than European one (but that's a matter of opinion and taste of course), I love the excitement of being immersed in a different way of life, and important as well is that I prefer the Turkish mentality rather than the one of most EU countries. Germany is very openminded in the big cities, here in Spain people tend to be quite open in urban areas as well, Holland idem dito, Scandinavia as well ... But then there's something in Turkey that I miss in Europe: solidarity. Turkish people, from my experience, will try to be helpful and always remain polite no matter what. I miss that feeling in Europe. Europeans can be very egocentric. They know the term solidarity but they seem to not know what it really means.

I miss Turkey, I miss the Middle East  If only Turkey could join the EU right away so that the bureaucracy involved with such a move would be gone...


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## gerrit

By the way, returning to your initial question: you may want to know that Brussels is the capital of Europe and because of that, a wide range of English language jobs and vibrant expat community exist in this city. Belgium overall is quite cosmopolitan if you stay in urban areas, and especially Brussels is really an international city. So maybe it'll be slightly easier to jobhunt there ; but as I said, in the Netherlands it's not exactly impossible neither to find English language jobs. 

Belgium is cheaper to rent and cheaper to live, however salaries will generally be slightly lower than in NL as well. In my opinion the Dutch mentality is much nicer than the Belgian one (and I say this as a Belgian native ; I'd rather move to Holland than to return to Belgium) however if you wish to stay in the area (central/western Europe) and jobhunting in Holland would be a bit tough, then Belgium can be a nearby alternative. If you have the choice between both countries, I'd advise the Netherlands but again that's a personal taste rather than stating exact facts,


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## dubioustranger

To visit NL in August is a mistake I think, because half the country is closed due to summer vacations and the sunny, balmy weather at that time of year gives a false impression of NL's climate -mostly cold and gloomy from October till April-. If you' come from a sunny state, you'll have a bit of time getting adapted to the cold, wet oceanic north european climate.


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## marc1977

Ive been living here for 11 years now and what you say about the weather is true except now the gloominess usually lasts from april till april and as for the half of the country closing down, thats not entirely true, thats mostly in the construction sector.


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## nicky29

^yes absolutely! gloomy crap weather lasts all year. Sometimes it's nice around early spring and autumn.. but summer is pretty horrid, humid, rainy and muggy. Now it's September and it's dark and as rainy as if it were December.


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## DutchGolf

nicky29 said:


> ^yes absolutely! gloomy crap weather lasts all year. Sometimes it's nice around early spring and autumn.. but summer is pretty horrid, humid, rainy and muggy. Now it's September and it's dark and as rainy as if it were December.


Don't be so negative. Even though the weather in the summer can be rainy, you have to agree that the past week has been beautiful.


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## nicky29

I'm not negative, I'm just stating facts. It rains here 360 days a year!
By week you meant last week? i can't remember as it was torrential rain since last thursday and it has been freezing this week. My friends in London said the weather's been great there ironically. I was in Paris during the weekend and it was summer there, came back Sunday night and almost froze at the airport!
Crappy weather is just a given in NL.Big deal, like heat is to Dubai 

I can tell you're Dutch because you don't like hearing a bad word about your country, even the weather- a bit ironic considering how people love to talk about it to death.


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## DutchGolf

nicky29 said:


> I'm not negative, I'm just stating facts. It rains here 360 days a year!
> By week you meant last week? i can't remember as it was torrential rain since last thursday and it has been freezing this week. My friends in London said the weather's been great there ironically. I was in Paris during the weekend and it was summer there, came back Sunday night and almost froze at the airport!
> Crappy weather is just a given in NL.Big deal, like heat is to Dubai
> 
> I can tell you're Dutch because you don't like hearing a bad word about your country, even the weather- a bit ironic considering how people love to talk about it to death.


Last Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday have been like summer. Sunday (when you froze at the airport) the temperature recorded was 28C with blue skies, no clouds!!! What are you talking about?

I totally do not mind people being critical about the Netherlands. I am Dutch and have lived most of my life abroad. The Dutch are far from perfect and I know it. But get your facts straight. Period. Go somewhere else and be happy.


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## nicky29

It was not 28C when i arrived ! that's crazy. so yes, it's nice to see that your measurement of 'a week' is three days worth of good weather (incidentally, those three days i was abroad). So indeed I missed them,but that is the reality of good weather here, blink and you miss it,
Again you cannot blame Holland for this- can't physically move it up the equator!.

Thanks, I'm working on it. It's not that I'm unhappy it's just that it's incredibly disappointing and frustrating, this place has a lot of potential.


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## Gioppino

DutchGolf said:


> I totally do not mind people being critical about the Netherlands. I am Dutch and have lived most of my life abroad. The Dutch are far from perfect and I know it. But get your facts straight. Period. Go somewhere else and be happy.


If you're Dutch and live in the Netherlands than you're not an expat. Can you just chill out and let other people speak their mind? You're not helping.


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## nicky29

^thank you, so so true, and just reaffirms everything I live and experience here daily


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## cschrd2

Weird statement here, but look at statistics. There is no place in holland that has 300+ days of rain. Think this links more to expats also finding home better. I have always enjoyed my stay there very much (south) and wish I could exchange my current location (China) for the nice hills in the South!


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