# Residence permit renewal refused!? Help / advice requested.



## billbaytoven (Jul 14, 2018)

Hello all and sundry. I have never posted on a forum before, but am very glad to have found this one which seems to be relatively active.

I am a US citizen and have been living in Spain legally for four years on a non-lucrative residence permit. Before this, was 3 years resident in Germany (also 100% legal). Recently I applied for my 2nd renewal of residence permit here in Spain. Nothing about my situation has changed since my last renewal and I'd no cause for worry really, but still we dread the process nevertheless.

It has been a nightmare this time. After a month's wait I was notified that I am accused of being outside of Spain too long, and my residency threatened to be revoked. This was due to the fact that my passport is not always stamped in / out when I travel. I was able to collect a lot of paperwork proving that I had not been outside of Spain for all of the time accused, and after a lot of stress they accepted this and the file was closed. After sighing with relief, I continued to wait the resolution of my renewal application.

Today, 14 July, the status of my application on the status-check website has been changed. "Resuelto - No Favorable." I am absolutely floored by this. I have been in Spain 4 years in good standing. I have no criminal history here nor anywhere on earth. I have not run foul of the rules, I do not work or earn money in Spain. I have Spanish health insurance, I have demonstrated (the same as with my initial application and my first renewal) well over the level of sufficient financial means required. Everything about my situation is exactly the same as it was when I applied, and was granted without any trouble, my first renewal two years ago. Not even my address has changed.

The only thing I can possibly think is my health insurance, through Adeslas, is currently a slightly lower grade than I had the last time I renewed. I have now read some things on this forum which say they require insurance with no co-pay. My current plan has a co-pay while my insurance on last renewal 2 years ago did not. However I would think they would simply notify me of this discrepancy and allow me opportunity to correct it, rather than just refusing my renewal outright and ordering me to dissolve my entire life and existence here and leave the country.

I have only just seen the "no favorable" resolution this morning. I have not yet received the official refusal paperwork in the mail. I assume this will be forthcoming at some point. Hopefully it will explain the reasons for refusal and how I might go about appealing or correcting it.

I am beside myself with terror over this entire process. My health has suffered enormously from the stress of these last months and this all hanging over my head. I have felt since May like a person with his head in a guillotine. I had thought that with the clearing-up of the 'you've been out of Spain too long' accusation the rest would go smoothly. And now this. 

I will be seeing about finding a lawyer to help with this. Obviously I now have to formally appeal the negative decision. I suppose my question for the assembled here is - has anyone ever heard of someone being refused a residency renewal and then reversing the decision on appeal? I have no idea even what a lawyer will cost for this. I am dreading hearing the fee will be something like 5,000€ and even then with no guarantee of success.

This news is devastating to me. I have been here 4 years and my entire life is here. To think of being deported, sent back to USA for no reason, no wrong done, is terrifying. Not least because as said, my entire life is here. I have nowhere in the USA to go. To say nothing of the humiliation this causes me. I have done nothing wrong, yet still feel somehow like a criminal.

I am sorry to write so long-winded. I feel I am in need of a good therapist in addition to a lawyer. Well, thank you for reading, and any information or encouragement or advice anyone might have would be truly well appreciated. I have felt so vulnerable the last months dealing with this nightmare alone, to say nothing of this latest news. Thank you again for reading, if you have.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

What an appalling situation! I can't offer you any advice (other than to get legal assistance), and I don't know of anyone else in this situation (most, but not all, members of this forum are citizens of the European Union). But you have my deepest sympathy. This sort of thing could easily happen to British citizens after it leaves the EU...

Keep us informed!


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

billbaytoven said:


> This news is devastating to me. I have been here 4 years and my entire life is here. To think of being deported, sent back to USA for no reason, no wrong done, is terrifying. Not least because as said, my entire life is here. I have nowhere in the USA to go. To say nothing of the humiliation this causes me. I have done nothing wrong, yet still feel somehow like a criminal.
> 
> I am sorry to write so long-winded. I feel I am in need of a good therapist in addition to a lawyer. Well, thank you for reading, and any information or encouragement or advice anyone might have would be truly well appreciated. I have felt so vulnerable the last months dealing with this nightmare alone, to say nothing of this latest news. Thank you again for reading, if you have.


I think you are right, you need a therapist!
I'm sure just writing all of this down helped, but this is a stressful situation for you, isn't it?
Until you have an explanation of why you were refused there is little you can do, so that's something you'll have to accept.

The only people I can think of who might be able to help are fellow Americans in Spain or the embassy.
Where are you in Spain?


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Your plight is of some concern, but I doubt that all is lost. 
1. Why did you change your health plan? presumably the current one is cheaper, is it a lot cheaper such that to retain the previous plan was more than you could afford? If not, approach the plan providers and arrange for it to be upgraded to the same as before. It would seem, without having any confirmation from the Spanish authorities that this would justify their refusal. You then calim that the incorrect health plan was a mistake.
2. Get yourself a Spanish lawyer who is _au fait_ with "Residencia" matters and familiar with the staff at the relevant Police Office. This latter point is very important since much of what goes in Spain is based on "Who you know" rather than "What you know." 
3. Get your new-found lawyer to make an appeal on your behalf.​


----------



## billbaytoven (Jul 14, 2018)

Alcalaina said:


> What an appalling situation! I can't offer you any advice (other than to get legal assistance), and I don't know of anyone else in this situation (most, but not all, members of this forum are citizens of the European Union). But you have my deepest sympathy. This sort of thing could easily happen to British citizens after it leaves the EU...
> 
> Keep us informed!


Thanks! Yes the large part of the stress involved is due to the sensation of being entirely alone in it all. I don't know any other expats here, all of my friends are EU citizens. Though they are sympathetic, they can't really be asked to understand the stress of having the legality of your existence so long in question.

I've been legal resident in Mexico, Argentina, Peru, Germany, and Spain, and have always done all of my residence applications and fighting entirely alone. I've never used a lawyer so don't know what that entails or how much it costs. But this renewal has by far, by far been the biggest headache and most worrisome hysteria I've ever experienced with immigration. And it's my SECOND renewal! One would maybe expect such weird hoops and hurdles on an initial first application. But the second renewal I'd hoped would go through smooth and easy. Well, nope.

I will definitely be updating here as events warrant. I'm very glad to have found an active forum on which to post these things and if nothing else receive perhaps a measure of commiseration. I am thinking to start a new thread, for future reference, simply to recount the nightmare of being accused of being outside of Spain for too long, and the subsequent fight to prove otherwise. I believe that's an aspect of foreign residency not many are aware of (I wasn't), nor are most aware (I wasn't) that Spain would actually scrutinise it.


----------



## Hepa (Apr 2, 2018)

Perhaps you should consider contacting your U.S. consul, they may well be aware of similar cases in the past and perhaps offer advice.

Also if you intend to stay in Spain consider Spanish nationality, you can apply once you have been resident for 10 years.


----------



## billbaytoven (Jul 14, 2018)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think you are right, you need a therapist!
> I'm sure just writing all of this down helped, but this is a stressful situation for you, isn't it?
> Until you have an explanation of why you were refused there is little you can do, so that's something you'll have to accept.
> 
> ...


Yes the writing-it-out does help a little. I agree nothing I can do until the letter comes. I though am one for whom such "don't worry about it" notions are difficult, almost impossible. But I will try. My health goes all to pieces with the stress of this stuff. I feel almost physically diminished, smaller in size. It truly has the ability to destroy my entire life, can't eat or sleep, nor enjoy anything, etc.

My "where in spain" question is at the moment a bit complex. Right now I write from Berlin Germany, where I'm visiting for a bit. On paper I'm resident in Barcelona, and that's where my renewal is being done. However in all of this renewal I've been in process of moving down to the south. I've a house rented in Zahara de la Sierra, one of the pueblos blancos down in Cadiz. I'll be back down there on the 25th this month. And have to go to Bali for 10 days at end of August. I'm already getting a little worried about perhaps being refused re-entry into Spain due to this fiasco if it's not sorted by then.


----------



## billbaytoven (Jul 14, 2018)

baldilocks said:


> Your plight is of some concern, but I doubt that all is lost.
> 1. Why did you change your health plan? presumably the current one is cheaper, is it a lot cheaper such that to retain the previous plan was more than you could afford? If not, approach the plan providers and arrange for it to be upgraded to the same as before. It would seem, without having any confirmation from the Spanish authorities that this would justify their refusal. You then calim that the incorrect health plan was a mistake.
> 2. Get yourself a Spanish lawyer who is _au fait_ with "Residencia" matters and familiar with the staff at the relevant Police Office. This latter point is very important since much of what goes in Spain is based on "Who you know" rather than "What you know."
> 3. Get your new-found lawyer to make an appeal on your behalf.​


Thanks for the notions. I changed my health insurance because I'm somewhat young (38) and 100% healthy and never used the insurance for anything. The hopped-up, no-copay stuff was something like 300 each 6 months. I dialled it back to a plainer, but still adequate plan with co-pay which costs me only 80 each 6 months. Of course if that ends up being the problem I will re-up to the higher grade coverage. It wasn't a question of not being able to afford it. It just felt wasteful. Also the requirement that there be no co-pay is not written anywhere that I've seen. Reading posts on this forum today was the first I'd heard of that requirement.

I only don't understand why that would constitute them simply refusing my renewal outright. Rather than sending a notice to say "there's a problem and you need to correct it before we can renew you..." That they would want me instead to dissolve my entire life of 4 years here and leave the country over something as minimal as this is incredibly troubling and frightening.

I will definitely not be trying to appeal the refusal without a lawyer. In fact I doubt I'll ever try to contend with any Spanish immigration matter again without a lawyer in place between myself and 'them.' I only worry what such a lawyer for this might cost.


----------



## billbaytoven (Jul 14, 2018)

Hepa said:


> Perhaps you should consider contacting your U.S. consul, they may well be aware of similar cases in the past and perhaps offer advice.
> 
> Also if you intend to stay in Spain consider Spanish nationality, you can apply once you have been resident for 10 years.


Thanks. I am almost certain though that the US consul wouldn't have anything to do with this or offer any help. They represent the gov't of USA, not the citizen. 

I'm aware of the 10-years-to-citizenship rule. It would definitely be on my mind if I made it that far. For now though my eyes are only on making it to 5 years, at which time (my NEXT renewal if this one wasn't refused!) I'm eligible for "permanent" residency. Which is actually only long-duration residency, but it gives me the allowance to take a job if I can / want, and I only have to renew every 5 years then. Sort of the same status as any EU citizen from without. That, for now, is the holy grail toward which I am working. I really didn't expect to be given such trouble as this, considering I am pretty long-term legal resident in good standing, bringing my own money in and a burden on no-one here.

I have been trying to console myself today by thinking in the absolute worst-case scenario that I'm refused even on appeal, and am deported (for what reason!?), I can maybe just go back to USA and re-apply from scratch. I would figure it would take some heinous criminal offence and record to have them refuse you residency again, and I've done no crimes. But what an insult that would be to have the 5-year clock reset back to zero for some nothing reason like this.

What I never understand with all of this stuff is how they figure denying you your resident status for some tiny reason like this (whatever it is) and forcing you to dissolve your life and leave the country is any help or good for anyone. Protecting the nation's interests or whatever. So I'd have to walk away from my lease I guess? Screwing my landlord out of income which he'd counted on having. I'm not saying I personally have all of these things, but someone living here 4 years is likely to have a whole life. A house, car, pots and pans, plants, dog and cat, gym membership, friends, boy or girlfriend, social and or community obligations. So Spain stands to benefit by forcing that person to pull up and leave, over some ridiculous bureaucratic irregularity? It makes no sense to me. Also I wonder how long one has to annihilate his life and get out. A month? You have one month to liquidate the life you've spent four years building, and get out of the country? Sell what you can, leave the rest, take only what you can carry, but just get out, that's the important thing. It's insane to me. And then what if you're not gone on time? You risk being caught "over-staying" when you exit and receive a fine and / or several-year Schengen ban? Ludicrous.

I am sorry for the ranting about it. Things like this get me all knotted up inside. Makes me to feel like some sort of criminal, and that is not a sensation I am used to. I don't find it pleasant at all.


----------



## MarisaAustin (Jul 15, 2018)

I read your posts earlier and then saw this on an expat website:

"Expat Health Insurance in Spain
My policy costs 1017 Euros or about $1109 annually. It can also be paid monthly through a bank deduction. There is no co-pay, which is the requirement for the Spanish visa, so most treatment is included, but not prescriptions or outside consultation." 

Hopefully, all it will take for approval is a revision of your application showing you are in compliance with health insurance requirements.


----------



## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

I strongly suspect that your problem is with your health insurance. On the official Spanish website it says that you have to have the following type of health cover (see the red part): 

Las personas que no ejerzan una actividad laboral en España deberán aportar documentación acreditativa del cumplimiento de las dos siguientes condiciones:
Seguro de enfermedad, público o privado, contratado en España o en otro país, siempre que proporcione una cobertura en España durante su período de residencia equivalente a la proporcionada por el Sistema Nacional de Salud. Se entenderá, en todo caso, que los pensionistas cumplen con esta condición si acreditan, mediante la certificación correspondiente, que tienen derecho a la asistencia sanitaria con cargo al Estado por el que perciben su pensión.
Disposición de recursos suficientes, para sí y para los miembros de su familia, para no convertirse en una carga para la asistencia social de España durante su periodo de residencia.

In other words, it says that you need health cover equivalent to that which is provided by the National Health System. Because there is no co-pay in the National Health System (Seguridad Social), what you've contracted isn't equivalent. 

There is time period when you can do a "recurso" or a claim against the decision not to grant you residency. I'm not sure how much time they give you to do this but I know it's not much. (Why am I thinking 2 weeks?) So no matter what you do you'd better not sit on this. My first stop would be the foreigner's office. Maybe there will be someone there who will actually talk to you and can fill you in on what you should do.

Good luck!


----------



## billbaytoven (Jul 14, 2018)

Thanks all. It is extremely comforting to think someone else is reading of my suffering and commiserating a little. I thank all ceaselessly for the advice and perspective.

I too think it simply MUST be the insurance. Like say, they've already popped me once during this renewal for the passport stamps. The only things left to find fault with are the insurance or the financial statements. The financial statements are exactly the same as the last time I renewed, with pretty much same amounts demonstrated. It simply must be the insurance.

I only do not know why, if it is a problem with too-low insurance coverage, they could not / did not simply notify me of this with a letter - "hey, there's a problem, we need you to correct it..." instead of outright flat denying me the renewal thus forcing me to go into the appeals process and suffer all of this associated stress and panic. Had they simply sent a letter notifying me of something irregular, I could have very easily (and willingly) upped my insurance coverage and provided the proof. It would have taken an hour. I wouldn't have needed to hire a lawyer. Now, I have to find a lawyer and go through the whole appeal before tribunal business. It definitely enrages me.

If anyone reading this has ever been through the appeal process to overturn a decision, please let me know what to expect / what happens.

I believe in the event of refusal like this, you have one month to file a request for the appeal. I believe the two weeks thing is in the case when they notify you of some irregularity and they invite you to provide further evidence that it's been fixed. That was the case with my passport problem two months ago. I had two weeks (in business days) to show up and submit my defence. I'm sure it will indicate when the letter arrives.

I definitely won't sleep on it when it comes. But for now I've not yet been 'officially' notified of the decision, so the clock hasn't yet started. The status website doesn't count as notification, as I understand. What is more, the official letter may not even arrive for several weeks. All along this process I have been getting letters dated one day, but which did not reach my house until around 3 weeks after that date. So for now it is just sit and wait.

That definitely doesn't save me from the incredible stress and anxiety though. I've already in fact fallen ill from the stress responce. Laying in bed now shaking with a nice healthy fever, about to go to sleep at 7pm. This happens every time I have to deal with this crap. I believe I have a very true and legitimate allergy to bureaucratic process. It sends me into a metabolic panic which simply destroys my life. It is able to access some deep animal vulnerability of me which, in today's world, nothing ought really be able to access. I would truly rather be charged by vicious wild dogs than have to confront the noxious bureaucratic nightmare of my residency permit being revoked.

I've no idea why the insurance quotes a couple posts up were so high. I guess there's always a reason. I was paying something like 600 a year for my previous full-ride coverage without co-pay. That was the insurance I had the last time I renewed my residency successfully 2.5 years ago, with no problems save the very long wait times. Zero problems in the renew, yet it was still a full 5 months! before I had the actual new card in my hand.

As an aside, if anyone has any experience / recommendations toward a good, english-speaking immigration lawyer in Barcelona, I'd much appreciate the notice. Or any idea / estimate on what such representation might cost.

Thanks again to this entire forum. Can't believe I've lived abroad for 10 years, and suffered all the problems there associated, without knowing about this forum.


----------



## expat16 (Jun 11, 2016)

Similar thing happened to me recently just a few months ago, residence request rejected and then got letter giving me 15 days to leave the country!

Write to the Immigration info email address asking for help (or get someone who speaks Spanish and call them), they are very helpful! 

In my case I had simply checked an incorrect box in the application, of course none of that was mentioned in the letter, but they told me over email after I wrote to them once I saw the decision on the website (before the letter).

If they can't help you then do find a lawyer as the decision letter can be very cryptic. 

You need to put a back-up plan in place and that should help you relax. You can go to any Schengen area country for example, perhaps Portugal find a cheap place while it gets sorted out.

Please report back if you might need more help!


----------



## billbaytoven (Jul 14, 2018)

expat16 said:


> Similar thing happened to me recently just a few months ago, residence request rejected and then got letter giving me 15 days to leave the country!
> 
> Write to the Immigration info email address asking for help (or get someone who speaks Spanish and call them), they are very helpful!
> 
> ...


Wow, thanks for your notes! A fellow american in extremis! Your story is very valuable for me and I am sorry but I have one thousand questions for you. 

I am amazed they denied you simply for a wrong box checked. Am I right to assume you were, like me, applying for a renewal of your permit and not an initial application? May I ask was it your first or second renewal? May I ask what type of permit was it? Was it a work permit? Study? Non-Lucrative? Something else?

I will never understand why in hell they choose to just throw us out of the country instead of acting like humans and notifying you something is wrong and inviting you to correct it. 15 days to leave the country is absolutely ludicrous. May I ask how long you've lived here?

So you were able to get the reason for refusal over email from the immigration ministry. What happened then? They simply understood the mix-up, accepted your "checked wrong box" situation and corrected it and reversed the refusal all on their own? You did not have to get a lawyer or go through the appeal-before-tribunal process? Your story seems very encouraging because it sounds as though you were treated like an actual human person with a life. I never feel there is any human element in any of this, neither do I feel respected as one, and so even going into a simple application I am always braced and ready to be treated as nothing more than a very disposable number, and moreover one they would be all too happy to be rid of entirely.

Anyway you leave out the details but it sounds to me that somehow you managed to reverse the refusal and have your application approved and go on with your life in Spain. Is this correct?

You mention an email address to which you wrote begging information even before the official letter arrived to you. Where does one find this email address? I am flabbergasted to hear of someone actually getting a reply, let alone actual help, from a government email address in Spain. May I ask what part of the country you're in / which extranjeria you were dealing with? I've never found any gov't official in the Barcelona offices to be anything but surly and sullen and as intent upon lending as little help or compassion as possible. It blows me away to read you say "they're very helpful!" 

I will definitely be getting a lawyer, even if 'they' (whoever) say I don't need one and it's a very simple thing to correct. I simply can't handle dealing with this alone any more. I cannot be explicit enough about the stress and panic and anxiety, across MONTHS of limbo, this all injects into my life. It completely destroys my health (I have fallen to the ground, dizzy, in the street twice due to the stress caused by all of this), my ability to eat or sleep, to work, to take interest in anything or to focus on anything beyond immigration misery. My hands shake now and I'm still a young man! It overwhelms my entire life. I am very willing to get up off a thousand € if that is the cost of some peace of mind and the sensation and belief that I've a professional who knows the system on my side. Hopefully if it's simple to correct it won't cost me a thousand. Hopefully it won't cost five thousand. But I will begin my hunt for an immigration lawyer tomorrow, Monday the 16 July. 

As for a back-up plan and leaving the country to wait its sorting out, I won't be doing that. There aren't border checks between EU countries anyway, so they wouldn't know if I left. I have read in a couple places that the regular 90-days tourist 'visa' allowance begins when / if your residence expires. Who knows if this is true. Likely not even the people in charge of enforcing it.

If everything with this goes irrevocably pear-shaped and I am rejected on appeal somehow, even with an expensive lawyer, and I am thrown out of the country for having done nothing wrong and given whatever ridiculously insufficient amount of time to obliterate four years' worth of life here and get the F**K out, I sure as hell won't be doing it on their schedule. If it comes to that point and I am actually kicked out, I will not permit them to take my dignity that way. I will leave on my own good time, and with the dignity of the human I am. Not chased away at the end of a two weeks limit like some filthy dangerous criminal scum. Just let some passport control agent stop me and hassle me for "overstaying" or whatever. I will gladly take up that fight right there on the spot. If I'm booted out of Spain for no reason like that, I will happily burn my all and future associations with the EU straight to the ground. No, I'll not be waiting in Portugal for it to sort out. I'll be waiting in the beautiful perfect new little village house I've just rented this month and have been so looking forward to occupying. Except I have to go to Bali for 10 days at end of August for work.

I am sorry to be so rant-ful but the immigration hassles are the worst satan I endure in my life. And I'm only 1.5 years away from the "permanent" status and the gracious miracle of an 'every 5 years' renew requirement!

I do think it valuable though to give the details of your particular situation, the overturn of your refusal, as there is a definite paucity of information / documented experience (at least that I've found) regarding the whole permiso refusal / appeal process. I'll be posting my whole experience here as it unfolds, for the benefit of whomever may suffer similar circumstances down the line. Your own story would be similarly valuable I'm sure. At least it is currently, for me. If you've posted the story elsewhere, feel free to shoot the link over rather than re-writing it all here.

I'll also be posting on this forum my experience being popped for "spending too much time outside of spain" a couple months ago during this same renewal. A law I think few are aware of (I wasn't, in spite of fact that I wasn't in fact in violation of this rule) and few would imagine they would be scrutinised for it (I didn't). It's the reason they ask for a copy of every page of your passport. Anyway I will put it in a separate thread, again for the possible benefit of the next poor sap they try to snuff out over it.

Anyway thanks so much again for the anecdote, and for anything else you'd like to share. An unbelievable feeling, to imagine I'm not the first or treading virgin ground here.


----------



## expat16 (Jun 11, 2016)

It was an initial application for long-term residence, based off an EU-long-term residence acquired in NL (RLD-EU-NL). I filed in Barcelona office.

I checked the box requesting RLD-EU-ES, but I should have checked the one for plain RLD-ES (so regular Spanish permanent residence and not the broader EU-Spain one which allows you to move around the EU). This was actually better as it meant I didn't have to renounce my RLD-EU-NL (which already allows me to move around EU). This is the type of permanent residence you should request when you reach the 5 years.

I believe they are not really allowed to give legal advice, which is why it may seem like they are treating you like a number. However, they can be less formal by email or phone, and I was treated nicely when I called or emailed. Getting them on the phone is trickier though, you should call early in the day. However, I would try email first as they always got back to me, perhaps not immediately, but they always replied.

The email address is [email protected] - make sure to cite your case number. You also need to tell them the date on which you submitted the application. Perhaps use Google translate, or if you want send me a phrase you want to ask and I can translate (I speak fluent Spanish). I think the phone number is 93 520 14 10. 

I had to make a whole new application again, as they just can't change the whole file record, and my request was granted really fast after that.

I had some issues back at the Consulate in the US, because the workers there (which I found mostly unhelpful partly because they just didn't know what a long-term residence-EU is and the rights it gave me, and partly because they simply don't let you finish talking before giving their unhelpful, unrelated answers!

The way it was supposed to work is that, per the info I found on official website, I would have made my application while in the US, so that I could wait for the decision there without having to come to Spain and having to find a place under those uncertain conditions. But they didn't want to do that for me, they told me I needed to go straight to Spain and submit my application here. At least I got a NIE via them, but in first instance the same unhelpful lady didn't even want to do that...

While everything fell into place eventually, it was a very stressful time and I lost a lot of sleep over it. So I can relate re the stress. However, it's not personal, no one is on a personal vendetta to kick you out of the country! 

And you're right, you can stay in Spain under tourist visa afaik...the letter did state that I needed to get out within 15 days unless I had other recourse to stay...which I imagine includes tourist visa.


----------



## billbaytoven (Jul 14, 2018)

expat16 said:


> It was an initial application for long-term residence, based off an EU-long-term residence acquired in NL (RLD-EU-NL). I filed in Barcelona office.
> 
> I checked the box requesting RLD-EU-ES, but I should have checked the one for plain RLD-ES (so regular Spanish permanent residence and not the broader EU-Spain one which allows you to move around the EU). This was actually better as it meant I didn't have to renounce my RLD-EU-NL (which already allows me to move around EU). This is the type of permanent residence you should request when you reach the 5 years.
> 
> ...


Wow thanks for the details. I am most of all encouraged by the fact that you seemed to have reached a real person and been in turn treated as though you were one yourself, with sympathy and understanding. I simply am never able to get beyond the dehumanising aspect of bureaucratic process. I wonder if it is good to admit to them the life-destroying stress and anxiety and panic this all is causing, in hopes to play on their human sympathy. Or if instead maybe such display of weakness would only cause them to smell blood in the water and go straight for the jugular.

Thank you for the email address. I actually wrote to that exact same email months and months ago before I began this renewal. Barcelona changed the whole application process since my last renewal, and I couldn't figure out where to submit my papers now. I wrote to that same email address asking for any info but received no reply. Maybe / hopefully it will be different if I reference an actual expediente number. What sort of subject heading did you use when you emailed them?

I wonder though - does writing them to ask why you were refused then start the 'one month to file appeal' clock (or alternatively the '15 days to get out' clock) , even if the official letter hasn't yet arrived? I only wonder if they consider you 'officially notified' if you're writing emails asking about why you've been refused and what can be done. I'm currently stuck in Berlin until the 25th July and so don't want to start the clock prematurely. I want to have all of that month to use.

Thank you very much for offering help with translation. I don't at all call myself fluent, but I can write it well enough. I can even speak it well enough for most normal daily and social purposes, but my terror of dealing with bureaucrats is so severe that when it comes to this immigration crap, my ability to speak to them intelligibly falls entirely to pieces. Another reason I am now keen to secure the services of a lawyer who can speak on my behalf.

I have to keep reminding myself that it is not personal, no-one there knows me and harbours some vendetta against me, etc etc. But neither does it seem ever to hold any weight regards quenching the fires of anxiety inside me to remind myself that I've lived in europe 7 years now and have always, in the end, managed to get the permit. Germany refused my renewal once years ago and I managed still to eventually get the permit, even without legal assistance. But none of my past triumphs ever seem to allow me to have faith or confidence now, today.

I have read on spanish-language forums of a thing called "administrative silence." This apparently (??) can be invoked in instances where the authority does not provide a decision within the 90 days supposedly allotted to them. If your application is still 'en tramite' after 90 days, you can somehow invoke (I don't yet understand how) a ruling of administrative silence which means the answer is automatically favourable because they took too long to process it. Again, I've not read about how one goes about exercising this in reality, but it may be germane for future use. Hell, it may be germane perhaps for my current use, for I've counted up the days and their NO FAVORABLE decision was rendered 94 days after my application was submitted. So perhaps I can go after a mistrial or something.

My current calamity is further complicated by fact that I technically do not physically live in Barcelona any longer. I've been meaning / working to move down to a village in Andalucia for some time, and it just happened that during the middle of this renewal process the perfect house came available to rent and I could afford it, so I jumped on it. My former room-mate in BCN is helping me with getting the mail that comes and e-mailing it to me, but it will still require me to fly up to Barcelona every time something needs to be dealt with, regarding this mess. Obviously I hadn't anticipated all this trouble. I figured only two easy trips - for huellas and to pick up the new card. Oh how wrong I was.

It is a little outside the scope of this thread I know, but I'm curious about your apparent dual-residency status. Is it correct that you now hold two different valid residence permits for two different countries in europe? Also don't understand why you had to make the application physically from the USA. I was resident in Germany when applied for residency in Spain, and did it all at the Spanish embassy in Berlin.

I also wonder why they refused you the Spain-EU larga duracion permit, when you already had it via Holland, but they granted without any trouble the Spain-only permit. Isn't the whole point of that larga-duracion-EU permit that you can easily transfer it from one country to another?? I've actually read that it's best policy to first apply for the Spain-only one. That they're more likely to approve / grant that one than the EU version. And if you apply for the EU version first and get turned down, you're screwed. But if you apply for the Spain-only first, are granted it, then apply for the EU version and are denied, you've still got the Spain-only larga duracion to fall back on. That's the way I intend to do it if my time ever comes.

Well, thanks again. This conversation is comforting. I don't know any other americans here, so none who have had to deal with any of this.


----------



## Brangus (May 1, 2010)

billbaytoven said:


> But for now I've not yet been 'officially' notified of the decision, so the clock hasn't yet started. The status website doesn't count as notification, as I understand. What is more, the official letter may not even arrive for several weeks. All along this process I have been getting letters dated one day, but which did not reach my house until around 3 weeks after that date. So for now it is just sit and wait.


Although I have not been in your shoes and I don't live in Barcelona, one time my "resolución" letter NEVER arrived. On realizing there was a problem, I did as Kalohi recommended earlier and hurried to the foreigners' office. They printed out a copy of the decision on the spot.

Compose yourself and get down to the foreigners' office as soon as you can.

Once they print the decision, you will know the reason. And as Kalohi said, you might be able to speak (calmly and politely) with someone about your options.

Good luck!


----------



## billbaytoven (Jul 14, 2018)

Brangus said:


> Although I have not been in your shoes and I don't live in Barcelona, one time my "resolución" letter NEVER arrived. On realizing there was a problem, I did as Kalohi recommended earlier and hurried to the foreigners' office. They printed out a copy of the decision on the spot.
> 
> Compose yourself and get down to the foreigners' office as soon as you can.
> 
> ...


Hey, thanks so much for the notice. 

Yes the exact same thing happened the last time I renewed my permit. I asked the woman who took my application documents - "How will I be notified of the decision?" She said very plainly, "They send a letter in the mail." I confirmed this with her. The mail? Yes, the mail, in the mailbox. She even mimed the action of slipping a letter into a slot.

I proceeded to wait some 3 months. Nothing came. And I couldn't go ask the extranjeria because they wouldn't let me past the door without an appointment. The closest appointment was another 3 weeks away. So I booked it and waited a little more.

When I went to the appointment I told the man I'd been waiting almost 4 months for an answer. He said check the website. I said "What website? The woman who took my papers said it would come in the mail." The man actually laughed at me, shaking his head no. "No, the website," he said. He handed me some piece of paper, instructions for using 'the website.' But I was angry and tired of all of the run-around. 

I told him "Ok, show me then. Show me the website right here on your computer." No spanish government website I've ever seen functions properly. I told him plainly "I'm not leaving here today without knowing the status of my application." I sat back in the chair as though ready to stay all day at his desk if necessary. He sighed and got on his computer. It took him about 15 minutes, several tries, several "website cannot be found" notices, and at least once required his calling over a colleague to help navigate the site, before he got the thing to work. He entered my information and it came up on the screen. It had been approved something like 3 weeks after I'd submitted the application. He printed it off, I thanked him, and skipped out of there with a light heart. No notice ever came in the mail for me either.

I will definitely get in there soon as I can, but for now I'm actually aided by no letter arriving. I'm currently in Berlin until the 25th July, and even then I go back 'home' which in the middle of all of this fiasco has switched from Barcelona down to a village in Cadiz. My former room-mate in BCN is helping me and watching the mail, so if the letter comes I'll be notified. But still it will take my flying up to Barcelona in order to deal with all of this. So the longer it takes for me to be 'officially' notified, the better, for me.

I've been notified twice so far, via registered letter, of other sad hysterical problems during this renewal, so I'm assuming something so grand as an outright refusal they aren't going to overlook or forget the notification letter. But either way I definitely won't be going to sleep on this. I'm just stuck in Germany right now until next week, so nothing I can do at this exact moment except post nervously on this very helpful and tolerant forum.

Thanks again.


----------



## expat16 (Jun 11, 2016)

I don't think the appeal period starts if you communicate with them by email. The letter in my case mentioned that the date of notification was the date on the letter (or one day after, can't recall).

Yes, I do have two permanent residences at the moment. The NL one would lapse if I don't reside there for two continuous years, but it's easy to recover, so it doesn't really lapse. As that one is the EU version then I can still use it to move to some other countries within the EU. 

After 5 years residence in Spain I can also convert the Spanish permanent residence into an EU one, but in that case I will have to renounce the NL one....which doesn't make a difference because then I would be able to move to NL based on the Spanish EU one.

BTW, as far as I understand, when you apply for permanent residence in an EU country they always have to check whether you qualify for the EU one first, and give you that one (which has more rights) if you do. However, in some countries there are different forms, or different checkboxes, like here in Spain, so I would make sure to go for the EU form/checkbox just in case.


----------



## billbaytoven (Jul 14, 2018)

expat16 said:


> I don't think the appeal period starts if you communicate with them by email. The letter in my case mentioned that the date of notification was the date on the letter (or one day after, can't recall).
> 
> Yes, I do have two permanent residences at the moment. The NL one would lapse if I don't reside there for two continuous years, but it's easy to recover, so it doesn't really lapse. As that one is the EU version then I can still use it to move to some other countries within the EU.
> 
> ...


Hey thanks. Very interesting and informative. I had assumed they would not allow one to have valid residency permits in two different countries. Why not collect them all.

I wonder if when they sent you the official refusal / "get out in 15 days" letter, did they send it registered mail? As in, you had to sign for it? All of the official decision letters they've sent me in this process have been signature-required. I think that is how they keep track of the time limit they mention therein, whether it's 15 days or 10 business days or a month or whatever. I could be wrong. But I don't know how otherwise they know when you actually received the notice. The time limit usually stars the day after you receive the thing, not the day after the letter is dated.

For instance several times so far in this same renewal, I've been sent these letters. The actual date on the letter would be something like 20 April, but it wasn't delivered to my house until 12 May. In which case the "you have ten days" would already be long over before Correos even delivered the thing. I have no idea why it takes 3 weeks for a letter to go a few blocks across town, but I guess that's Spain.

Also who knows how closely they even scrutinise the dates part of it? When I carried my "you have ten days" letter into the extranjeria to hand in my defence documents (the date on the letter was over a month old, though I was accurately within ten days of my receiving it), the front-desk man at the office didn't even seem to glance at the dates. He was having an animated conversation with one of his buddies standing there and barely gave me a half glance. He just skimmed to the part of the letter which said "sin cita previa" and handed it back to me and printed me off a little number ticket for the waiting room.

Anyway here's hoping. Thanks for all of the info and encouragement given in this thread so far. I will update here as this sad process happens. 

So far I know nothing new. I have telephoned with the office of a well-reviewed immigration lawyer in Barcelona and was encouraged to find that her very calm and helpful young native-english-speaking assistant's name is the same as my mother's name. It is not a very common female name and I am hoping it is some sort of a sign. We spoke about my coming in for a consultation, which would cost 50€ but that would be deducted from the final fee if I choose to retain the services of the firm. The assistant's calm demeanour over the phone and the fact that she didn't seem to find it particularly alarming or cause for panic that my renewal has been refused served to entranquil me a little. It seemed as though they deal with these things every day and know well how to handle them. I found that reassuring. I have not been doing very well at all in the last days with the stress and internal panic and anxiety this all has caused. I found my hands shaking so severely this morning that I had considerable trouble carrying my breakfast muesli from bowl to mouth without spilling everywhere.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

The letter may be dated XX of MM but it may be several days or even weeks before it actually ends up in the post.


----------



## billbaytoven (Jul 14, 2018)

That's what I figure happens. The letter which dismissed the case on my being away from Spain too long was dated the day after I turned in my proof documents. But the letter didn't arrive to the house until 3 weeks later.

It's fine by me. I'll take all the time I can get.


----------



## Nomoss (Nov 25, 2016)

I can only echo the advice above, to find a lawyer or even a gestor who has the necessary experience and contacts to help you with this, and ask them in advance what it will cost. You will only really achieve this by asking people who have made successful applications.

Back in the 1980's, before the UK joined the EU, my wife and I had our applications for residencias refused, without being told the reason. We were in Mallorca, where possibly the nepotism and cronyism are as strong as they can be in Spain.

After trying two gestors who achieved nothing over about 3 or 4 months, a large number of people we asked were recommending a slightly shady abogado, who apparently had all the required contacts and knowledge. He quoted us a figure which seemed reasonable, submitted our applications, and we received our residencias within a few weeks.

After almost 20 years in Spain we have moved to France, and find life much easier dealing with bureaucracy here.


----------



## expat16 (Jun 11, 2016)

billbaytoven said:


> I wonder if when they sent you the official refusal / "get out in 15 days" letter, did they send it registered mail? As in, you had to sign for it?


At the time, I used my (future) employer's address, so the letters were delivered there and colleague would notify me. So I am not sure whether it was a registered letter. But I guess it was....


----------



## billbaytoven (Jul 14, 2018)

Nomoss said:


> I can only echo the advice above, to find a lawyer or even a gestor who has the necessary experience and contacts to help you with this, and ask them in advance what it will cost. You will only really achieve this by asking people who have made successful applications.
> 
> Back in the 1980's, before the UK joined the EU, my wife and I had our applications for residencias refused, without being told the reason. We were in Mallorca, where possibly the nepotism and cronyism are as strong as they can be in Spain.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the anecdote. It's hearing of others' experiences that seems to help calm me the most. I'm surprised / comforted by your report of having fought for MONTHS and sorted it out in the end. Of course that was the 80's, but perhaps spanish bureaucracy is so thick that one could still simply drag this sort of thing out indefinitely if necessary.

France sounds lovely. Spain is by far, by far the worst place bureaucracy-wise I've experienced on earth. I've lived in USA, Mexico, Peru, Argentina, Brasil, Germany, and Spain, and have dealt in varying amounts with the bureaucracy apparatus in each of them. For me it is something about the incompetence here. The bureaucratic process is cumbersome and unpleasant in pretty much every circumstance, everywhere. But in most places you can at least trust that the system functions and that eventually you will get through it. Maybe it is just me, but I simply can't get there with Spain. I can't bring myself to believe or to trust. It feels every time, no matter how minuscule the goal, the processes in place are simple anarchy and chaos and bedlam. No-one knows anything for certain or what they "know" is blatantly incorrect, the rules change from minute to minute, nothing is concrete, everything open to infinite interpretation. There is no way to orient yourself in the Spanish nightmare.

I lived three years in Germany before I came to Spain. To get a residence permit in Germany takes about 2 hours from top to toe, as long as your things are in order. Two hours from handing your papers across a desk to walking home with your new permit in-hand, the entire thing done. I will NEVER understand why in Spain the exact same process takes 2-3 months in the best case scenario. My last renewal two years ago, wherein nothing went wrong, took 5 months total, from the day I turned in my papers to the day I had the new card in-hand.


----------



## Nomoss (Nov 25, 2016)

You're beginning to understand why we decided to stay in France, even though we like Spain itself.

We moved here in 2000, but we're only 2 hours from Spain for nice trips, and shopping stuff we want from there, so go there at least half a dozen times a year.

We thought about moving back a few times, as our Spanish pensions ensure we can do so, but to the mainland.

However, a two year battle to get back provisional tax after finally selling an apartment we had kept, then another to transfer the services to the new owners, fighting with Trafico over getting the right paperwork to import our vehicles into France, and a fight to baja our mobile phone contract, made us decide in favour of a more peaceful life.

We were obliged to make many trips to simply collect letters which they wouldn't send out of the country, or to visit offices who wouldn't respond to emails, and although we had a gestor, it was impossible to sort everything out without going there.

We even had to go back to pay a traffic fine we got on a weekend, as there was no way to pay it from France.

Here in France there is almost nothing that can't be sorted on line or by email.


----------



## billbaytoven (Jul 14, 2018)

Nomoss said:


> You're beginning to understand why we decided to stay in France, even though we like Spain itself.
> 
> We moved here in 2000, but we're only 2 hours from Spain for nice trips, and shopping stuff we want from there, so go there at least half a dozen times a year.
> 
> ...


Yes, you are definitely talking my language. I've numerous stories just like this, as I'm sure everyone does who lives here. Even dealing with non-government people you're not safe. I am / was trying to get a motorcycle license, and had THREE different driving schools tell me with 100% confidence that I didn't have to take one of the written tests as I have a valid EU car-driving license. Guess what happened the day I showed up to do the test.

Luckily I keep my life simple enough that my runs-in with this sort of thing are as minimal as possible. I don't work here, earn here, or own anything here. I only need the legal permission to exist on the soil. Yet having done nothing wrong, even that is in jeopardy now. 

I hate to think this way, but I'd not be in the least surprised if some immigration official had simply stamped 'refused' on my forms because doing so allowed him to clear his desk and start his 4 hour lunch break ten minutes early.

It's so sad. I don't mind jumping through all of the draconian hoops if at least I could believe in the efficacy of the system. As it is though it just feels like you're casting your whole existence onto the whims of anarchy. I try my best to focus on the fact that in the past, I've always gotten the permit in the end. That seems to be the general thrust of things from foreign people I've spoken to about this stuff. If you fight it long and hard enough, eventually they cave, especially if you haven't done anything bad.  But dang is it tough to keep positive.


----------



## Nomoss (Nov 25, 2016)

billbaytoven said:


> ............. I am / was trying to get a motorcycle license, and had THREE different driving schools tell me with 100% confidence that I didn't have to take one of the written tests as I have a valid EU car-driving license. Guess what happened the day I showed up to do the test..........


That's odd. I was told the same thing, although I by then had exchanged my Uk for a Spanish licence, which may have made a difference.

I wasn't asked to take a written test, but had to take the test on an approved bike, provided by a driving school, which was a tatty old Vespa.

As I am 6ft 4" (1m93), with very long legs, my knees were level with, and outside the handlebars, I found it extremely hard to control, and in spite of having ridden bikes all around the world since I was 16, I failed.


----------



## billbaytoven (Jul 14, 2018)

For sake of thoroughness for future searchers I update this thread.

I have retained the services of an immigration lawyer to deal with all of this. The lawyer is very helpful, operates well in english, and the prices are very reasonable - 50€ for a consultation / 160€ to file the appeal. However, the 50€ counts toward any fees if you end up hiring the firm. So really it is 50€ for consult, then 110€ to file appeal. I am unsure if it is allowed to post names of lawyers on this forum lest it seem like advertising. Until someone tells me otherwise, I will refrain from it. I would so far recommend the lawyer I am dealing with, but let us wait until she wins my case all the way for me, before I go singing her praises too highly.

The lawyer did a fair job at calming my fears on our initial phone conversation. In spite of the complexity of my current personal situation, she assured me these are very common processes, we have two attempts at appeal, and if for some very unlikely reason both of those are denied, there is still some method to normalise my status in Spain as I have been here over three years. In short, she said, there is about a zero percent chance of my being deported, even in absolute worst-case scenario.

The official letter stating the reason for refusal finally came around 3.5 weeks after the website status showed I'd been refused. The reason : my health insurance coverage was insufficient. This was what I had thought it would be, and what I had hoped it would be. The lawyer too agreed, before the letter came, that this is very likely the cause for refusal. She said if that is the reason it is very easily fixed and the decision reversed easily on appeal. I still do not know or understand why they simply refused my renewal application outright, rather than sending a letter notifying me that my insurance coverage was insufficient and inviting me to repair it and supply the necessary proof. That would have occasioned far less stress. Perhaps that is exactly why they did not do it that way.

This is where I am in the process as of this writing. I have, using the lawyer's recommendation, contracted a year's worth of proper top-grade health insurance which is guaranteed to satisfy the immigration ministry. For this I've paid 542€ for one year's coverage. Plus the 160€ for the lawyer's fees makes about 700€ all-told I've sunk into this hideous fiasco. I put these figures here for the benefit of anyone in the future searching this stuff up, as I myself had no idea, going into this, what to expect of legal fees and etc.

Now the lawyer files the appeal. I do not personally have to be present for any of this and in fact as of this writing have not yet even met the lawyer face to face. The lawyer is extremely confident that the extranjería will overturn the decision and says this is all extremely routine. The bad news is - the lawyer states that the appeals process takes a full 3 months. She said we likely will not have any decision before that. So that will be middle november, then. And that only to render the 'favorable' decision on the renewal at last. Then I will of course still have to wait the month or so for appointment to apply for new tarjeta, and then another month or so before the tarjeta is ready for pick-up. All in all, I will have lost around a full year of my life on this nightmare. 

Then I'll have a period of 8 or so months before I get to start the whole G-D thing over again. At least my next renewal will be for the larga duracion. And I will never again do any of this without utilising a lawyer between myself and the extranjeria. 

I suppose that does for an update. I will try to remember this thread and report back when the process concludes.

Unfortunately it doesn't mean I only must now sit back and wait. For I must travel to Indonesia next week and only recently learned that I must obtain an autorizacion de regreso in order to re-enter the country while my resident renewal is in this limbo. So, more forms, more fees, more documents and applications, more lines, waiting rooms, more appointments. Why my valid US passport is somehow suddenly insufficient to permit me entry to the country simply because my resident status is being renewed is a total mystery to me. Especially when they welcome 400,000 foreign tourists into this country every single day with open arms, on no stronger a document than a plain passport. Oh well.

Further relevant notes - since my tarjeta de residencia has been expired since February, my bank account here in Spain (Caixa) has been sealed and locked away from my use. I learned this when I went to transfer the 50€ fee to the lawyer for the consultation. I am very lucky that, since I am not allowed to work in Spain, neither do I keep any money here. My accounts remain in the USA. I've no idea what would happen to me if all my money was in my spanish account and they simply locked me out of it just like that. I will not re-gain access to it until I am able to show them a new valid resident card. So things like paying my rent, etc have now been made immeasurably more difficult. Luckily the lawyer's office was able to bill me via paypal and I paid that way at a grotesque mark-up. 

I have literally forgotten what it feels like, day to day, to live life without the cloud of some nefarious permitting process hanging menacingly over my head. My pulse quickens every time I step outside the house, for fear that somehow I'm forgetting some permiso or other and am therefore subject to some punitive measure. Some permiso for walking on the street that I forgot to apply for, or autorizacion de respirar whose form I signed in the incorrect place or something like this. In all I have never experienced a more debased, dehumanising ordeal than this has been.


----------



## Nomoss (Nov 25, 2016)

billbaytoven said:


> ..................
> 
> ........... I have literally forgotten what it feels like, day to day, to live life without the cloud of some nefarious permitting process hanging menacingly over my head. My pulse quickens every time I step outside the house, for fear that somehow I'm forgetting some permiso or other and am therefore subject to some punitive measure. Some permiso for walking on the street that I forgot to apply for, or autorizacion de respirar whose form I signed in the incorrect place or something like this. In all I have never experienced a more debased, dehumanising ordeal than this has been.


I'm 80 this year, but when I find a letter with an official Spanish logo I still get that sinking feeling I used to get waiting for a beating outside the headmaster's office. Not so bad early in the year, when we should receive letters with forms (in French) to prove we are still alive, for our pensions.

I say "should" because in 2017 we didn't receive the letters, so obviously didn't complete, have witnessed, and return the forms, and our pensions were stopped, without warning, from 1st April onwards. We never received any notification of this ('cos we were dead, weren't we)

After several phone calls to the bank handling the transfers for Seguridad Social, and "our" Hacienda in Gerona, I found the reason. I was also told that the forms they send are actually French government forms.

We immediately found and completed the forms online, printed them, had our Mayor sign them, and sent them by registered express post; Our pensions were reinstated, and we received the April, May, and June payments on June 29th.

We didn't receive any reminder this year either, but sent off the necesssary forms in January, now that we know, but it would have been nice if they had told us.

One's memory doesn't improve with age (see the ticking off I received for having out of date information on the "Non Resident Tax when Buying" topic) , so I now have several reminders set up for this and other procedures necessary every year.

My suggestion for you, Bill, is to consider moving to France. Life is much less stressful, there is some inefficiency in the Civil Service, but not in the same league as Spain, and there are treaties between the US and France which might make it even better for you.

We had every intention of moving to the mainland after selling up in Mallorca and getting away from the crowds of tourists there. Good for our business, but not for retiring. We kept our house in Mallorca, but also had a small place in France, spent some of our time in each, and wanted to make a final decision.

We looked at literally hundreds of houses, all over the East and Southeast, but found it had changed too much since we knew it previously. Every town seemed to have a sprinkling of slightly impoverished Brits, seemingly living on the edge, who, on noticing one was speaking English, would sidle up and offer help to find/ buy a house, find accommodation, do building work, etc. etc.

We felt that this did nothing for the reputation of Brits in many parts of the country. After 3 years we finally decided to stay in France.


----------



## billbaytoven (Jul 14, 2018)

Nomoss said:


> I'm 80 this year, but when I find a letter with an official Spanish logo I still get that sinking feeling I used to get waiting for a beating outside the headmaster's office. Not so bad early in the year, when we should receive letters with forms (in French) to prove we are still alive, for our pensions.
> 
> I say "should" because in 2017 we didn't receive the letters, so obviously didn't complete, have witnessed, and return the forms, and our pensions were stopped, without warning, from 1st April onwards. We never received any notification of this ('cos we were dead, weren't we)
> 
> ...


You know, I have found myself this year especially with an odd warm feeling toward France. I cycled across it several years ago enroute to here and though the terrain and the loneliness of the solo bicycle tour absolutely whipped me psychologically, it remains to this day my favourite of the cycle tours I made across each of germany, france, and spain. 

I moved to spain from germany chiefly out of laziness with regards to language. I'd picked up a confident enough german from absolute zero in three years but was fairly tired of starting languages over from scratch. I'd an already working ability in spanish, and further discovered the hole in the immigration fence which was the residence permit I'm currently fighting to renew, and so spain it was. I can't speak french and am not one of these who are content to go around talking english everywhere, so france was out.

Now I'm not so sure. All throughout this nightmare renewal process it has occurred to me, usually just before I'm about to get to sleep, just what it is all of this fighting is in service toward. All of this, all of the stress and appointments and fees and forms and official letters and lawyers and waiting and panic and uncertainty, all of it is in service to getting the little plastic card which says I'm allowed to continue living here. And yet, I'm not terribly enamoured of my life here. At times through this whole ordeal I've wondered if it's even worth all of this trouble simply in hopes to maintain my situation here. The only thing causing me to say 'yes' is the knowledge that the alternative is to return to the USA. And that, I hope, is to be avoided at any cost.

Perhaps in time I too will try France. I would like to reach the 5-year point here and receive the residencia de larga duracion, which I understand is transferable to other EU states. In spite of all of the physical trouble in travail I had in France on the bicycle, and in spite of how thoroughly I cursed the place and how severely I looked forward to crossing the pyrenean frontier to southward, my experience pedalling across rural France remains a fond one today. And there is one thing more I will say for France. The country there had the nicest, friendliest rural people I've experienced anywhere. German small-towners were content to stare at me with such sneers of disgust across their faces I felt I must have been covered in faeces without somehow knowing it. The same, or worse still, is true of rural people here in Spain. I am currently living in a tiny 1500 person white village in Cadiz, and I cannot walk outside of my house without being stared at like a diseased zoo animal. At least half the time I say a friendly hello to someone passing in the street they simply look away and say nothing. But universally across France, no matter the age or race or apparent economic status of the person, I remember being treated (even in spite of my severe paucity of language) with a friendliness well beyond the current world standard. I was waved to cheerfully by farmers in fields, old village ladies carrying their baskets of bread smiled and said hello as I passed, and even the younger set, teens and such, were not sullen and snide and derisive as they are here in Spain. I definitely marked the friendly aspect all across France.

So who knows but perhaps one day I too will throw my hands up under the assault of the constant beatings given by the spanish bureaucratic organism and flee myself north.


----------



## cermignano (Feb 9, 2017)

About time expats had a mass protest in Madrid, Barcelona etc to highlight all these grievances. It is nigh on impossible for state workers and managers to get sacked so they are happy to have the power to do things they way they want to


----------



## billbaytoven (Jul 14, 2018)

maureensco said:


> About time expats had a mass protest in Madrid, Barcelona etc to highlight all these grievances. It is nigh on impossible for state workers and managers to get sacked so they are happy to have the power to do things they way they want to


Let's not forget their gruelling five-hour workday.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

billbaytoven said:


> *At least half the time I say a friendly hello to someone passing in the street they simply look away and say nothing.* But universally across France, no matter the age or race or apparent economic status of the person, I remember being treated (even in spite of my severe paucity of language) with a friendliness well beyond the current world standard. I was waved to cheerfully by farmers in fields, old village ladies carrying their baskets of bread smiled and said hello as I passed, and even the younger set, teens and such, were not sullen and snide and derisive as they are here in Spain. I definitely marked the friendly aspect all across France.
> 
> So who knows but perhaps one day I too will throw my hands up under the assault of the constant beatings given by the spanish bureaucratic organism and flee myself north.


They are probably Brits or Northern Europeans. We get them here in our village. They are pig-ignorant. Spaniards here are used to greeting and speaking to everybody which can be a problem when one is in a hurry.


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

billbaytoven said:


> You know, I have found myself this year especially with an odd warm feeling toward France.
> Now I'm not so sure. All throughout this nightmare renewal process it has occurred to me, usually just before I'm about to get to sleep, just what it is all of this fighting is in service toward. All of this, all of the stress and appointments and fees and forms and official letters and lawyers and waiting and panic and uncertainty, all of it is in service to getting the little plastic card which says I'm allowed to continue living here. And yet, I'm not terribly enamoured of my life here. At times through this whole ordeal I've wondered if it's even worth all of this trouble simply in hopes to maintain my situation here. The only thing causing me to say 'yes' is the knowledge that the alternative is to return to the USA. And that, I hope, is to be avoided at any cost.


 Spain is causing you untold stress. 

If you have the possibility to move, why not?
Although, are you sure the paperwork side will be easier in France, and in a language you don't speak?


----------



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

maureensco said:


> About time expats had a mass protest in Madrid, Barcelona etc to highlight all these grievances. It is nigh on impossible for state workers and managers to get sacked so they are happy to have the power to do things they way they want to


Just wondering if this is a serious post?


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

maureensco said:


> About time expats had a mass protest in Madrid, Barcelona etc to highlight all these grievances. It is nigh on impossible for state workers and managers to get sacked so they are happy to have the power to do things they way they want to


It's *their* country. If you don't like it, perhaps it is time for you to move on or back or somewhere else.


----------



## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> It's *their* country. If you don't like it, perhaps it is time for you to move on or back or somewhere else.


Not France though, there is still the administration to deal with (and they don't take kindly to the involvement of immigration lawyers) and things can still take a long time, there are no gestors, the French are often described as stand-offish and you really, really do need at least basic French. Maybe the USA


----------



## Crawford (Jan 23, 2011)

/SNIP/

I am wondering how a 38 year old American lives in Spain for 4 years without working (what is a non lucrative residency permit?), and appears to hop around all over Europe and other parts of the world without an income.

He obviously has plenty of time to write long, descriptive posts to this forum .....


----------



## Crawford (Jan 23, 2011)

The following is taken from the Spanish Embassy website in LA regarding non lucrative residence visa:

_11. Proof of Insurance that covers Sanitary Assistance, Accidents, Emergencies, Evacuation, Medical Repatriation, Return of Remains with complete international coverage, with *ZERO (0) deductible, no co-payment*. It must be from a company that is authorized to operate in Spain. No other type of insurance will be accepted. (Requirements attached) Also see common questions and issues for details._

Pretty obvious......


----------



## Tortuga Torta (Jan 23, 2016)

billbaytoven said:


> At times through this whole ordeal I've wondered if it's even worth all of this trouble simply in hopes to maintain my situation here. The only thing causing me to say 'yes' is the knowledge that the alternative is to return to the USA. And that, I hope, *is to be avoided at any cost.*


Why?



> German small-towners were content to stare at me with such sneers of disgust across their faces I felt I must have been covered in faeces without somehow knowing it. The same, or worse still, is true of rural people here in Spain. I am currently living in a tiny 1500 person white village in Cadiz, and I cannot walk outside of my house without being stared at like a diseased zoo animal.


I have trouble believing either of those, unless there is something remarkable I don't understand about your behavior or appearance.


----------

