# questions about FBAR



## giannisss

hello, 
first of all ,sorry for my english.
My uncle is a single (divorced over 40 years) US naturalized citizen of greek origin (~75 years old). He was moved last year permanently to Greece. Furthermore, he transfered part of his money through international wire bank transfer here. I read last week on the site of the american embassy of Athens that he must file the FBAR form for calendar year 2017 because he is over the threshold (over 10k but less than 50k).
His only income are social security benefits plus minimal of interest income (~5 dollars in a US account and ~15 dollars in the new greek account who was opened during 2017)- The dollar-accounts in Greece have high interest rate  . According to the social security worksheet his social security benefits are not taxable. So his gross income is only the interest income, which is obviously less than 11900 which is the threshold for filing a 1040 tax return for a single 65+ years old. So he is not required to file a 1040 tax return.
The site of american embassy of Athens has a list of tax preparers (registered or not I dont know). I visited some of them and everyone told me different things. Some of them told me that the due date for fbar is 15 June and if we need more time we will ask for an extension but I read on Irs site that the due date is 17 April with an 6-month automatic extension. So I am sure that the due date is 15 October without asking for an extension. 
One of them told me that the law has changed and if someone is not required to file a federal return , he is not required to file a fbar also. But I read that 1040 and fbar are two different things which are filed at different federal services. So I cannot find a relationship between them. Perhaps he confused fbar with 8938 form which If you do not have to file an income tax return 
for the tax year, you do not have to file Form 8938, even if the value of your specified foreign financial assets is more than the appropriate reporting threshold. 
What is your opinion about this?

I found the site of fincen and I saw the fbar form and I think that it easy to complete but I have also some questions about the submission.

1) I created an email address for my uncle but he has not anymore an american phone number. Can I use his new greek phone number ? The greek numbers have 10 digits and the international code for calling from USA to Greece is 01130. So should I put these 15 digits ? I noticed that the system accepts up to 15 digits. Will they send something or call to the phone? I read in the instructions that they only need a valid email address for an acknowledgement email indicating the FBAR has been processed.

2) they want adobe acrobat. I have acrobat reader DC. Is It ok? I can open the fbar form normally. My system is windows 7 which is in greek version and my mozilla firefox is also in greek version.

3) a question about the final submission. Will The first email be received immediately after the submission? If there is a rejection for any reason, someone will learn it from the first email or from the second ? I mean for example if you dont send the fbar form but you send a picture  the rejection will be immediate ?

thank you in advance


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## Moulard

1) You can use any phone number. It support up to 15 digits because that is the maximum length of a phone number under the E.164 format. The chances are extremely remote that you would ever get a phone call. You do want a valid email address. They will email you a receipt with a tracking ID which is your proof that you submitted.

2) the FinCEN Form 114 aka FBAR form is a form field pdf. Pretty sure Adobe reader DC allows you to fill in PDF Forms.

3) You will get two emails from them. One saying they received it (including a receipt number). The second that they have processed it (including a BSA reference if you need to amend your FBAR). The two emails about 3-5 days apart. I have never had one rejected, but I would assume you would be notified in that second email...


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## Bevdeforges

The requirement to file an FBAR is completely independent of the requirement to file US income taxes. Whoever told you different is wrong. I currently file an FBAR for a friend who does not file a US tax return due to insufficient income and we've had no questions or contacts about this in the several years we've been doing this. (And in her case, her foreign assets are more than the 8938 theshold - but the rule is that if you don't have to file a return, you don't have to independently file the 8938. It's a part of the 1040 filing, so no 1040, no 8938.)

Moulard has given you the details on the FBAR filing.

You should be good to go.
Cheers,
Bev


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## DavidMcKeegan

I want to also mention that while the main deadline for the FBAR is in April, it is automatically extended until October 15th, so you do have until then to file it. You don't have to file any specific forms to take advantage of that extension.


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## giannisss

thank you for your answers.

3-5 days for the acknowledgement email ?? I thought that it was only 1-2 days. I will complete and submit at weekend because there will be less "traffic" in their system.
Should the date of signature to be the date of submission?

The reason that i am thinking about rejection or other problems is because i found on web 2-3 cases in which some guys had problems in submission. 
For example forums.adobe.com/thread/2438812
but as I have download the latest fbar form and the latest adobe acrobat DC and i can complete and sign , i think that I have not any problems. My system is windows 7 and mozilla in greek version both.


@Bevdeforges
I noticed that The requirement to file an FBAR is completely independent of the requirement to file US income taxes. But he told me that his tax program cannot send independently these forms...
I think it is normal that your friend has not any questions that he is filing only fbar and no 1040. FBAR is just and an informational report. It is like you put papers in a box. Only if you file a return and complete schedule b , IRS will learn about your fbars.
I read the FATCA agreement between USA and Greece and i noticed on the greek "IRS" site that the exchange has not started yet. They will sent 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017 in seperate files until september. Although the model between Greece and USA demands account over 50k to be reported , the greek bank asked for ssn (w9 form) when my uncle opened the account. I asked the employee if they also report accounts with less 50k but he didnt know.


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## Bevdeforges

Don't try to finesse the FBAR system too closely. It has been in existence since well before FATCA in any event, even if it has only been the last few years that online filing is required.

I noticed that thing about the banks only being required to report accounts over $50K. According to many of the Bilateral Agreements, they are also only required to report NEW accounts opened since 2014 or whatever the start date for reporting is in the relevant country. In France, for example, the banks are also formally exempted from having to report certain types of accounts, though exactly what they do or don't report depends more on what they do or don't have to report to the national banking authority (since it's usually the banking authority that collects the information for forwarding to the IRS/Treasury Dept.).



> 3-5 days for the acknowledgement email ?? I thought that it was only 1-2 days. I will complete and submit at weekend because there will be less "traffic" in their system.


There are actually two "acknowledgements" - the first says it will appear within 1-2 days, though I've always received it within a couple of hours of filing. This one, I think, is simply an acknowledgement of the receipt of your FBAR filing (and that it is technically acceptable to the FinCEN system for processing). The actual text of the e-mail says that your FBAR has been "accepted."

A couple of days later (hence the "3-5 days" thing) you'll get a second acknowledgement, that tells you that your filing has been processed and assigned a number (which you need to use if you decide later to amend the filing for any reason). 
Cheers,
Bev


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## giannisss

two silly questions also because I am almost ready to submit


a) account number or IBAN ?

b) address of the headquarters of the bank or the address of the branch bank where the account opened
As far as I know When you send wire transfer to the bank , you should use the headquarters address 

I noticed that the address of the bank is not compulsory to complete ?


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## Bevdeforges

a) account number - they only want an "identifying number" for the account. They aren't going to transfer any money to or from your account.

b) whichever you prefer - I've always given them the branch address simply because it's easier and more readily at hand. Again, they aren't going to transfer any funds to you there.
Cheers,
Bev


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## giannisss

thank you for your answer.
Have you ever heard an audit for fbar to take place or to ask more infomation about the accounts? I read about the penalties and these are draconians!! But i think that the sites which are associated with taxes for expats scare people because they want to find new customers. They are presenting extreme situations wth criminal charges with people who hide millions of dollars in order to scare new taxpayers.
I know about the 10000 hidden accounts in Swirtzeland in 2009 but i think this is the exemption .
And I explain: i read that only 56000 participated in the voluntary disclosure. If you see the data from fbar filing per year , you can see that the filers are increased with a rate 80000-100000 per year. So these people make quiet disclosures, and if they had problems , I am sure that we were informed from the sites...

If someone leaves USA for ever and the only relationship that has with USA is his social security benefits, will he have any problem with the benefits if he dont file anything?? i will file FBAR for my uncle but i had this interesting question.


can I ask you sth about social security card.

His card has also a middle name (which is father name). this card was issued in 2013. His old card didnt have.

He had not filed a 1040 return for many years when he was living in USA because he only has his social security benefits and he was not required to file.
However we wanted to open tha account in Greece last year and the bank wanted tax residency certificate. So he visited an EA for this form 6166 and the accountant filed a 1040 return in order to take the certificate faster.
Both form 1040 and form 6166 are without the middle initial. Should i mention the middle initial in fbar?
His ssa 1099 has the format first name-m(initial)-surname

I think that there isnt problem because i read that IRS checks the name control, which is the combination between tha ssn and the first 4 letters of the surname.

thank you.


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## Bevdeforges

Don't get too bogged down in the details here. 

I have no personal knowledge of any sort of "investigation" or "audit" of an FBAR filing. I have only heard about those used on the "shock and awe" websites - and those involve people with foreign bank accounts or other accounts totaling many millions of $$. 

I have been contacted by the Treasury Dept. asking for additional information regarding an FBAR I had filed. Specifically, they asked for the Employer ID number for my employer (because I was reporting that I had signature power, but no financial interest in my employer's bank account). I reported back to them that the employer was not an US company, so had no EIN. And I have heard nothing back from them since then. (The employer has since gone out of business.)

Given that the Greek bank has asked for your uncle's US SSN, you should probably go ahead and file the FBAR. But it's a "good faith" filing they are looking for and they aren't really going to make a fuss about a middle name vs. middle initial or some other minor variation in the name as reported.
Cheers,
Bev


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