# Middle of the night ramblings



## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

2 am and just catching up on a few threads. Just read of more young British families willing to risk all to find a new life in Spain  and I started thinking “What is it they want from Spain?”.

Almost never do “Where should I move to in Spain?” posters ever state what they want from their new country. They talk about ‘must get away from the UK’. They talk about a new start, a better life. But all to often you get the feeling that Spain has been selected because it is not too far away, the sun shines more often, and they have heard other brits live there. Why not Portugal, Scily Isles, Morocco, Malta, Torquay ..? Is Spain really selected based on ‘Home in the Sun’ and a two week Benidorm experience? How depressing.

Despite their stated determination to get to Spain they often know very little about Spain (and I mean very little). From this lack of knowledge it is evident that Spain is not attracting them due to its culture, its soul, or anything remotely connected with the Iberia peninsula - beyond possibly the three 'S's. 

They freely admit that they do not speak Spanish and often that they have never shown any aptitude to learn a foreign language. Yet they have already pencilled in dates for arrival and decided that it will be OK:

•	if one partner commutes as if a 1000 mile hop every Friday night - back for Monday was like a return on the number 7 bus.

•	throwing their kids into an alien education system in an alien world sound in the knowledge that the kids will be fluent in a second language (although they are not too sure what language that may be).

•	that despite not speaking the language their determination to work hard will find them employment.

Yet when someone injects some realism expressing that Spain may not be the panacea that they seek they cry foul, demanding positive feedback and mass enthusiasm for their life changing plan.

There must be something going on here. This is not normal. Why should this happen? 

Well if they know nothing of Spain beyond the sun is meant to shine more than in the UK then the motivation must lie at home. Perhaps the question should not be “What do you want from Spain?” It should be “What are you running away from?”.

I had always thought of spain as a great place for brits to retire to. Villa near the beach, healthy eating and climate, and great for the family to visit. Or for Brits with business ideas who wanted to add value to the economy. Or for brits drawn by a true love (and knowledge) of Spain and its culture.

Brits going there doing normal jobs and adding nothing I'm not so sure about. Yes the EU lets us do it but how many of these people would pass an imigration test? 

To heavy in the middle of the night so then I started thinking about the consequences of a failed Spanish move and the possible consequences. Makes you shudder. How depressing. Think I'll go to Bedfordshire before I kill myself.

ps. I had wondered if shattering dreams with realism was not a bit of a cruel sport but I guess if just one family is saved an emigration to their ‘Costa de hell’ experience then it is justified. But it also makes you realise the importance of a forum like this and the responsibility of the answering posters. Great place this. Goodnight


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

nigele2 said:


> 2 am and just catching up on a few threads. Just read of more young British families willing to risk all to find a new life in Spain  and I started thinking “What is it they want from Spain?”.
> 
> Almost never do “Where should I move to in Spain?” posters ever state what they want from their new country. They talk about ‘must get away from the UK’. They talk about a new start, a better life. But all to often you get the feeling that Spain has been selected because it is not too far away, the sun shines more often, and they have heard other brits live there. Why not Portugal, Scily Isles, Morocco, Malta, Torquay ..? Is Spain really selected based on ‘Home in the Sun’ and a two week Benidorm experience? How depressing.
> 
> ...


Brilliant!!:clap2: Hope you're getting some sleep now.

I do agree with you but of course, if you've made a successful move yourself and you've settled and are happy here, it seems almost churlish to say to others "don't come over, there's mass unemployment, etc etc" but it's just being realistic at the end of the day and we all have our dreams. However, they need to be supported by something a little more material, don't they. The point about language is something I feel very strongly about - especially with children. It's not impossible for the children to settle into a foreign school in any country - in fact below a certain age it's incredibly surprising just how quickly they can integrate and become fluent. It's the parents on the outside of that that concerns me - the support that you would hopefully be giving your children back in your native country, you wouldn't necessarily be able to do here - the meetings with the teachers, any problems at school.....but then maybe it's different in the larger expat communities down South so that's why probably there are a lot of newcomers to the forum particularly focused on those areas. Of course in the good old days, pre crisis, this wasn't a particular problem - it was just another little Britain in the sunshine - easy to move to and no particular worries about language issues. I still think it's a great place to be - and things will eventually get better in a few years' time, but as long as the fact that people start to become more realistic and "humble" I suppose (for want of a better word) that they are going to be immigrants too - and should integrate into their communities, not just hide themselves away in enclaves, and running to something (not away from), then that would make a more positive experience. Confidence plays a large part in it of course - especially if you've come over here and left your friends and family in the UK. It can be incredibly difficult getting to meet people, having to talk to others in maybe another language and that all adds to the negative feelings - of course, not everyone is outgoing and just doesn't give a flying **** when it comes to chatting to whomever. So yes, that's why this forum is good because although the poster may not be using language that we'd use, the sentiments behind them are certainly recognisable, if not something we've felt ourselves.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

what a really interesting post. I'm just on my way out, but I'll add my comments (if I dare in my present doom and gloom mood) when I get back!!!!!

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> what a really interesting post. I'm just on my way out, but I'll add my comments (if I dare in my present doom and gloom mood) when I get back!!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


I'll second that - except for the doom and gloom!


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Tallulah said:


> but of course, if you've made a successful move yourself and you've settled and are happy here, it seems almost churlish to say to others "don't come over, there's mass unemployment, etc etc"


But perhaps it is important that you do. There are people on here who have got through their first year and then moved on after the gloss has died away. And they are continuing the learning process and jumping huge hurdles. They meet up face to face, discuss the problems, the issues, yes and the good times – it’s not all doom and gloom. But they don’t go out of their way to hide the size of the challenge

But the dreamer back in the UK just wants to hear how easy it is going to be. As if wishing hard enough will make it all come right.

To be honest it just scares me. Perhaps the saving grace is that only a very small percentage get as far as the airport


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## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

What a great Post Nigel2 !! Enjoyed it and it bothers me that people have this desire to escape the UK ....WHY? What is so bad about their lives that they think sunshine will make any better ? 

For those who retire...it's a fantastic life..good weather so you tend to be more active and healthy. For young single people..life in cosmopolitan Madrid..or well off people who can send their teenagers to an International,,or those married to a spanish person - PERFECT !!! 

But I despair at those posters who have families who have older children and plonk them in a spanish school - Why on earth ?? Without knowing the language ,..yikkees. What kind of parent considers it ! Those years between 12 and 18 are so so important in terms of education and stability, plus going through physicial and emotional changes as teenagers do.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

NorthernLass said:


> Those years between 12 and 18 are so so important in terms of education and stability, plus going through physicial and emotional changes as teenagers do.


I am inclined to disagree with 12 to 18 being so important. At the age of 16 I was on board ship working for a living, being completely independent from family and making my own decisions.

I think young people are not given enough responsibility and a different life style and education system might not be so bad, especially if in the previous U.K. school, the majority of pupils did not speak English as a first language.

Me? the sunny climate of the Canary Islands was a major factor, more or less crime free society and the laid back attitude of the local Herreños brought me here to live,

H


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

NorthernLass said:


> But I despair at those posters who have families who have older children and plonk them in a spanish school - Why on earth ?? Without knowing the language ,..yikkees. What kind of parent considers it ! Those years between 12 and 18 are so so important in terms of education and stability, plus going through physicial and emotional changes as teenagers do.



Not good ages at all! Especially as their employment prospects would be pretty much nil in Spain. I got round it by putting mine into an international school, altho my duaghter didnt like it and wanted to try a Spanish school - she doesnt like that either and quite frankly, her education is not good. I certainly wouldnt fancy her chances in getting work in Spain when she's 16 and she certainly wouldnt be up to going on to further education here! 
Jo xxx


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Having re read Nigels post, he is sooooo right!! Its got me questioning what it was that made me want to come here and live! I think before I came, I saw Spain as a relaxing, hot, uncomplicated place where people were nicer, life was easier, cheaper and there was no nanny state. Everything was more spacious and uncrowded. Blue skies, blue sea, little white buildings, tables outside of pretty little bars.

The reality is nothing like!! You can run away from the UK but you cant run away from your life or your family, that comes with you. Nothing changes, only your surroundings - washing may dry quicker, but it still has to be done, along with the ironing, housework(sweeping and more sweeping), cooking, school run, shopping, kid nagging...... The novelty soon wears off that its Spain

But with a good income and the right frame of mind, it works and its lovely. I love it here, but its a struggle sometimes

Jo xxx


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

jojo said:


> Not good ages at all! Especially as their employment prospects would be pretty much nil in Spain. I got round it by putting mine into an international school, altho my duaghter didnt like it and wanted to try a Spanish school - she doesnt like that either and quite frankly, her education is not good. I certainly wouldnt fancy her chances in getting work in Spain when she's 16 and she certainly wouldnt be up to going on to further education here!
> Jo xxx


Hey Jo, we cannot all be academics, your daughter will find her place. I have a son that is not an academic, never taken an educational exam in his life, but to see what he can create with his hands is breathtaking. It would be so boring if we were all university graduates.

H


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Hepa said:


> Hey Jo, we cannot all be academics, your daughter will find her place. I have a son that is not an academic, never taken an educational exam in his life, but to see what he can create with his hands is breathtaking. It would be so boring if we were all university graduates.
> 
> H


True! In fact she has the personality that will get her thru and she's a bright kid, altho her lack of Spanish (she refuses to learn it!) will hold her back in Spain. But the world is a small place and I've always hoped that moving to Spain would give my kids the understanding that the world is theirs whatever!!!

Jo xx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Hi Nigele2 and others,
Questions - is there anything wrong with wanting to leave a country because you don't like the weather, the education system, the politics, the future prospects etc,etc??? Is there anything wrong in wanting to leave your country because you want to try somewhere else or because you want a bit of an adventure??? I don't think any one here would deny people the chance to try Spain for any of those reasons. So what's the problem? 
It seems that things change when other people are involved and of course, there are (almost)always other people to consider be it your partner, your children, your parents, or in your adopted country, (Spain for us) the new people you come into contact with, including the town hall and the government. If you can't get a job, you're not going to have any money.If your kids are missing gran they're not going to be happy, and neither is gran and if you need hospital treatment are they going to speak to you in English? (*should* they speak to you in English??)
I think the forum serves a very useful purpose in giving people info from all sorts of angles and that includes talking about unemployment, doing the washing, and the rain.
As for asking what you can give Spain, it's a great way of thinking, but how many people include this on their priority list? I certainly didn't. I think that comes with a certain maturity or a certain age or at a time when you can stop and think a bit. 
Why do people choose Spain over the Channel Islands (remember that thread ??) Who knows? I agree it's amazing how some people seem to wake up one day and say "Pack your bags family we're going to Spain." My advice will always be, if you're on your own (really on your own) why not try? But if this decision affects others research, try, taste, dip your big toe in, but don't dive head first!!
Anyway, I didn't choose Spain - Spain chose me


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hi Nigele2 and others,
> Questions - is there anything wrong with wanting to leave a country because you don't like the weather, the education system, the politics, the future prospects etc,etc??? Is there anything wrong in wanting to leave your country because you want to try somewhere else or because you want a bit of an adventure??? I don't think any one here would deny people the chance to try Spain for any of those reasons. So what's the problem?
> It seems that things change when other people are involved and of course, there are (almost)always other people to consider be it your partner, your children, your parents, or in your adopted country, (Spain for us) the new people you come into contact with, including the town hall and the government. If you can't get a job, you're not going to have any money.If your kids are missing gran they're not going to be happy, and neither is gran and if you need hospital treatment are they going to speak to you in English? (*should* they speak to you in English??)
> I think the forum serves a very useful purpose in giving people info from all sorts of angles and that includes talking about unemployment, doing the washing, and the rain.
> ...


Your post is very thought-provoking, Nigel, as is yours, PW. You are a 'special case', though.
A few more hopefully provocative passing thoughts.....
I feel the Spanish people have been immensely tolerant and welcoming of the huge numbers of immigrants who have settled here for various reasons. Do we Brits have the same attitude to migrants to the UK? I think not. Was it our PM who proclaimed 'British jobs for British workers'? Yet do immigrants who come here looking for jobs consider the fact that millions of Spanish people are without work?
We in the UK are -rightly imo -critical of people who come to our country speaking no English and live in little ghettos. Yet an awful lot of Brits here speak not a word of Spanish, patronise British establishments, work in the Brit (and often black) economy and live in Brit enclaves. I have heard and read downright racist diatribes against the 'rude' 'lazy' 'backward' Spanish, not to mention the person who told the British media that were it not for the Brits, the Spaniards would be 'growing tomatos and riding donkeys'. And don't get me started on the millions of £ stolen by benefit frauds who are cheating the taxpayer while they enjoy their lives in the sun.
I often get the feeling that some Brits here regard Spain as not really 'foreign', as a kind of UK with heat. There is a certain kind of Brit who sees Spain as a colony and the 'Med' as a British lake. They are not on this forum, thankfully...but they are out there and occasionally surface in posts on other sites or letters to the press.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to live in another country but we Brits are fortunate in that we live in an open society and continent. It's not possible to just go and live in some countries - even Canada won't let just anyone have the right to residence. I had close relatives and property there but couldn't easily get the right of abode as I wasn't on the scarce skills list..
I'm just an idle immigrant to Spain, don't work so don't contribute financially employment-wise and I enjoy life here immensely. I feel tremendous respect for the warmth and acceptance of the Spanish people I have met. If I were younger I would certainly like to 'give something back to Spain' but I really haven't anything worth giving at my time of life, apart from a sense of thankfulness for a most enjoyable life here.


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## Irishgirl (Sep 26, 2008)

Hi all,
I have written about this very thing before. I agree with the post, I am here a year and a half now and it was very tough and still is tough!! The language is still tough and i have a long way to go with this. My OH works away every week even though he is employed by a company in Barcelona, he has to go where the work is. When we moved here it took us 10 months to get a job and we spent €22,000 in that 10 months getting set up and living etc, by no means cheap!!! He is fluent is Spanish cause I do think if he wasnt we wouldnt still be living here.
I have a friend who moved here from the States and her children who were 10 and 11 when they moved here and found the language very hard and especially when they had to learn Catalan more so than spanish!! They have gotten an opportunity to move back to the states and the children are so delighted that they are moving back..... My friend didnt realise that the children were finding it so tough even though she is very close to her kids, they were just getting on with it!! 
Life here is good when you are settled but getting to that stage takes lots of time and money!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Irishgirl said:


> Hi all,
> I have written about this very thing before. I agree with the post, I am here a year and a half now and it was very tough and still is tough!! The language is still tough and i have a long way to go with this. My OH works away every week even though he is employed by a company in Barcelona, he has to go where the work is. When we moved here it took us 10 months to get a job and we spent €22,000 in that 10 months getting set up and living etc, by no means cheap!!! He is fluent is Spanish cause I do think if he wasnt we wouldnt still be living here.
> I have a friend who moved here from the States and her children who were 10 and 11 when they moved here and found the language very hard and especially when they had to learn Catalan more so than spanish!! They have gotten an opportunity to move back to the states and the children are so delighted that they are moving back..... My friend didnt realise that the children were finding it so tough even though she is very close to her kids, they were just getting on with it!!
> Life here is good when you are settled but getting to that stage takes lots of time and money!!


Your post should be essential reading for everyone iconsidering a move here.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I feel the Spanish people have been immensely tolerant and welcoming of the huge numbers of immigrants who have settled here for various reasons.


I vehemently disagree. Just this weekend there was a bit about the "no queremos rumanos" ("we don't want any Romanians" source: El PP nacional se desmarca ahora del folleto "No queremos rumanos" · ELPAÍS.com) in Badalona being circulated by a candidate for local office. I'm not even going to mention the rotten things I hear regularly said about folks from other countries. Yes, that *DOES* include us "guiris." Being a pale blonde, I can't tell you the number of times people have taken the liberty to talk behind my back in the street. Being blonde, I'm just a silly guiri, no? Drives me up the wall. 

There are certainly plenty of Spanish people who do not feel this way. However, I'm constantly reminded just how new immigration is to Spain when I hear people I don't expect these sort of comments from people I thought would never say such things.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

halydia said:


> I vehemently disagree. Just this weekend there was a bit about the "no queremos rumanos" ("we don't want any Romanians" source: El PP nacional se desmarca ahora del folleto "No queremos rumanos" · ELPAÍS.com) in Badalona being circulated by a candidate for local office. I'm not even going to mention the rotten things I hear regularly said about folks from other countries. Yes, that *DOES* include us "guiris."


The Spanish in general are not happy with immigrants coming and taking their jobs, homes, taking over their country ..... whatever!. I dont think anybody should take their comments personally to mean that they dont *like* anyone!!?

Jo xxx


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2010)

jojo said:


> The Spanish in general are not happy with immigrants coming and taking their jobs, homes, taking over their country ..... whatever!. I dont think anybody should take their comments personally to mean that they dont *like* anyone!!?
> 
> Jo xxx


I'm a bit confused about what you mean. But, there's a whole bunch of nationalities that simply don't sit well with some people here.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Many a time I heard people say that the Spanish weren't racist because there weren't enough immigrants. Well now there are, and now there aren't enough jobs to go round and now the racial problems are getting worse. Just like most other countries in the world it seems to me...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> > Your post is very thought-provoking, Nigel, as is yours, PW. You are a 'special case', though.
> 
> 
> Head case? Nut case????
> ...


Not true Mary, but perhaps it's just not the time for you to be doing right now.  Next year you may feel the need to do smth and there's loads you can do if you want to


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

halydia said:


> I'm a bit confused about what you mean. But, there's a whole bunch of nationalities that simply don't sit well with some people here.


 I have noticed that the Spanish get annoyed at immigrants coming over to work and feel that their jobs are being taken and undercut. In this economic climate they probably dont like it. I dont think its personal to individuals tho

Jo xxx


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hi Nigele2 and others,
> Questions - is there anything wrong with wanting to leave a country because you don't like the weather, the education system, the politics, the future prospects etc,etc??? Is there anything wrong in wanting to leave your country because you want to try somewhere else or because you want a bit of an adventure???


Certainly not. I was referring of course to families and so it is a joint decision. In typical examples that amounts to four human beings each of whom has rights. But if that is their desire then fine. Indeed I concluded that the "Where shall I live in spain" brigade were driven by the need to leave the UK rather than arrive in Spain.



Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't think any one here would deny people the chance to try Spain for any of those reasons. So what's the problem?


Again none as long as your hosts wish to welcome you. We are afterall guests in their country.

My issue is with the following logic and the pain families may suffer if they pursue their dream on this basis:

I dislike my country and wish to move my family elsewhere. I will do this by picking a country I know almost nothing about. One which has a language that I and my family cannot communicate in. A country that will offer me little support and where I will be isolated from any family left in the UK. I have not even thought about the impact this might have on my children, their education and/or their career prospects.

But I have set a date to arrive and if anyone attempts to raise difficulties I will at best ignore them


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

nigele2 said:


> My issue is with the following logic and the pain families may suffer if they pursue their dream on this basis:
> 
> I dislike my country and wish to move my family elsewhere. I will do this by picking a country I know almost nothing about. One which has a language that I and my family cannot communicate in. A country that will offer me little support and where I will be isolated from any family left in the UK. I have not even thought about the impact this might have on my children, their education and/or their career prospects.
> 
> But I have set a date to arrive and if anyone attempts to raise difficulties I will at best ignore them


Ok, got you now. In fact it's along the same lines as what I was saying about involving other people in your decisions
I agree, it's a little difficult to understand the logic behind these kinds of decisions


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Every word you say is true, Steve. We've not been here two years but we are already very familiar with the categories you describe. As past employers in the UK we share your view about the British work ethic or, in many cases, lack of. No wonder many UK employers in the agricultural industry prefer to take on Poles, Latvians etc.- they say they are far more productive than British workers.
Bring 'the world owes me a living' attitude to Spain and failure is bound to result. Losers are losers - everywhere.
As for Spanish 'racism' -I don't consider resentment of foreigners who take local jobs in a time of high unemployment to be genuine racism of the Nazi, BNP type. I'm sure that apart from the lunatic few that you find in every country most Spaniards don't consider themselves to be 'racially superior'. 
When times get hard it seems it's human nature to harbour resentment against the 'other', whether it be someone of a different nationality or even from another region or town.
But I accept that my experience of being made to feel welcome is just that, my experience, and I'm not in competition with anyone for a job so maybe I'm ignored!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Not true Mary, but perhaps it's just not the time for you to be doing right now.  Next year you may feel the need to do smth and there's loads you can do if you want to


Well, I suppose volunteering at the dog refuge could be said to be of use....
If I did anything useful I suppose it could be helping translate/interpret for some voluntary organisation as I have worked as an interpreter/translator and teacher of MFL. But then there are loads of people of all nationalitires here who are multi-lingual.
I see you as a special case because of your very personal commitment and integration to Spain.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Well, I suppose volunteering at the dog refuge could be said to be of use....
> If I did anything useful I suppose it could be helping translate/interpret for some voluntary organisation as I have worked as an interpreter/translator and teacher of MFL. But then there are loads of people of all nationalitires here who are multi-lingual.
> I see you as a special case because of your very personal commitment and integration to Spain.


MFL? Modern foreign Languages???
Well, yes, that's more what I was thinking of, but if your real interest nowadays are Azor look a likes, why not the dog refuge?? But if and when you want to of course
.
*I see you as a special case because of your very personal commitment and integration to Spain*. Well it boils down to having a Spanish family really which not everybody has, nor wants!! MIL is looking over my shoulder, Hahaha


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> MFL? Modern foreign Languages???
> Well, yes, that's more what I was thinking of, but if your real interest nowadays are Azor look a likes, why not the dog refuge?? But if and when you want to of course
> .
> *I see you as a special case because of your very personal commitment and integration to Spain*. Well it boils down to having a Spanish family really which not everybody has, nor wants!! MIL is looking over my shoulder, Hahaha


We've already been to the dog refuge. I'd like to make use of my languages....good German, French, comprehensible Italian and Spanish and rough but sometimes understandable Czech and Polish. But where?


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2010)

Hmm.. interesting thread!

Here's my, perhaps controversial, ramblings:

I'm in a tiny minority in ForumWorld I know but for me, my other half and all our friends here, Spain has worked out/is working just fine and I would never willingly go back to the UK and neither would they. Yes, for us circumstances maybe a little different from the normal "I'm thinking of moving to Spain" person in that we had no kids, are relatively young and had no real ties in the UK but in essence we both still made a huge leap of faith into the unknown. My philosophy has always been to give anything a go once, no the grass won't be greener, no I won't ever be a millionaire but happiness is paramount.

I moved here with a couple of friends just over three years ago. I came with 1500€ in my pocket. I got a room and earnt a bit of pocket money working with my friends in a property management company that they bought. I hadn't even been to Spain on holiday in the past let alone spoke any of the language. Why Spain, why not??

I was sick of the ratrace working to live in the UK, in my experience mostly everywhere else in Europe gets this balance right
I'd lived in France for 6 months about 15 years ago and hated it
It's close to the UK so cheap to fly there and back if you need to
It's warmer and (coming from Bournemouth originally) I liked being near the sea.
Everything in my life is/still is significantly cheaper than London (where I'd lived since 1998)
I stood a real chance of getting on the property ladder
I was going to be paid in Euros so exchange rates don't matter
I could always get a job working in IT in Gibraltar

I've moved around the UK quite a lot searching for the right place to settle and never found it so why not try abroad - 700,000(ish?) Brits can't be that wrong surely. The way I saw it is that the CDS would be an nice easy stepping stone into living in a foreign country. I could live on the coast and do things step by step; get a proper job, get a flat, get a car and between that try and learn the language. I did everything officially even though I couldn't speak the language with the help of people I quickly met. Aside from the tortuous bureaucracy, I never found anyone anything other than helpful. I soon realised that to get by you could quite easily live here and never have to speak Spanish, did I feel awful about that? At the time, no, not really.. what a great way to spend the rest of my life I thought! Yes, you quickly realise that if you speak Spanish your life gets a little less stressful on the odd occasion but did it make my life easier? Nope, can't say it did.. did I get better service in a bar/bank/restaurant when I spoke Spanish? No, in fact when I did speak Spanish they would almost always answer in English anyway. Not really being into self-flagellation and having more than enough other things to sort out this suited me down to the ground!!

Thousands of expats live here and have done for many many years and they are quiet happy in their little bubbles of society, why is that wrong? To me that's the worst kind of racism, if you were to slag off lets say a section of the Indian population in London for having their own local shops, speaking their own language, having their own newspapers and requiring an interpreter for anything official you'd be thrown in the Tower - here it seems acceptable amongst the Brits to look down ones noses at expats (not just Brits) that do the same.

Within three months I moved away from the property management work and by going out and meeting people and scouring the internet I managed (perhaps by chance, perhaps fate or perhaps because I got off my arse) to secure myself a job working for someone as autonomo. Fast forward three years and now my monthly income is what is was in the UK, only my outgoings are about a third. At no time during this period, other than August, have I had no income but thankfully because I live a modest lifestyle and don't require a villa, pool, aircon, gardener, RRS in the garage and sangria on tap I've been able to save a nice lump of money each month. My working day begins at 10ish instead of 7ish and if I've got a job on it stops at 5pm. Aside from trawling the forums I'm free to nip to the shops/bank/beach/doctors whenever I want and don't have to answer to anyone - even as a contractor working in the UK I didn't have that freedom.

So.. just my thoughts from the other side of the coin which will in no way outweigh the gloom and doom propagated by most forumites but hey ho! Would I recommend someone to move here with a family, no job, no skills, no money and no Spanish? Not a chance! Would I recommend someone to come here that was young, positive, highly skilled and had realistic goals.. yes, why not!? Every week we deal with people that are full of rubbish, claim they can do a job and can't, are unrealistic about money and timescales and that's just the Spanish! I fear a lot of Spain had become a bit of a dumping ground for societies chancers, the current economic situation can only help this by weeding out the junk and hopefully leaving behind the serious, hardworking and genuine people that don't think the World owes them a favour


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

what has to be said with all of this is that different people have different skills, requirements, abilities and strengths - not to mention different family or lifestyle restrictions. Some can make it. Many people with tenacity and assertion could come over to Spain and make it work! But sadly, I think the majority dont have the right mindset and see it as a possible easy option. So the negative comments are usually useful to read. It gives everyone a chance to think about the downsides. So those folk who visit a forum with rose tinted specs on can see that it isnt easy and wonderful without 110% effort. Those who are determined enough will read the negatives and work out a way around them and do it!

Jo xxx


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2010)

I concur and we must meet up for a curry and beer before you leave


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

ShinyAndy said:


> Hmm.. interesting thread!
> 
> Here's my, perhaps controversial, ramblings:
> 
> ...


I've read this post again and again and I like it very much - very clear, balanced, to the point not getting at anyone, and I would say in no way controversial! As far as I can see you're saying the same as many of us on here and not from the other side of the coin. If you've got family issues, if you've got no qualifications to speak of, and especially if you think Spain's going to welcome you with open arms because you're a British immigrant, think again about making Spain your home. If you've got nothing or little to lose why not try? Many people on this forum are of that opinion. However many people also say, if you really want to give it a go, why not leave Spain for a couple of years... By the way, I came to live in Spain never having visited the place. I did speak a little of the language however and I did have a temporary job, but Spain was supposed to be a stepping stone - 23 years later, I'm still here 

I don't think you're in a tiny minority of being happy if you're thinking of *this* forum. There have been a few people with gripes and for whom things just didn't work out, but I think the large minority are happy or very happy with their lot. And some of those who end up leaving do so against their will...

As for the expat bubbles, yes, you could be right perhaps some of us look *down our noses at this type of life*. I do try not to, especially after reading posts on this forum and understanding that it is difficult for older people to adapt and use the language etc. What I don't accept is the attitude that Spain has to adapt to them, that the Spanish should learn more English, that they need to make it easier to get their paperwork done etc.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts and keep on posting please.

PS: You might want to get in touch with Ragstorich...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't think you're in a tiny minority of being happy if you're thinking of *this* forum. There have been a few people with gripes and for whom things just didn't work out, but I think the large minority are happy or very happy with their lot. And some of those who end up leaving do so against their will...
> 
> ...


OOPs! That should read MAJORITY


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Many people who live in Brit immigrant ghettos are the ones who say they left the UK 'because of the froreigners'.
I wouldn't expect my old mum, say, to move to a foreign country and abandon all the things she was used to. She would love to be able to buy familiar products, cuts of meat, the Daily Mirror, have neighbours she could talk to.
And why not? Sobre los gustos no hay disputos....
The Brits that get up my nose are those who come here, behave in a crude and arrogant manner and look down on the Spanish people. They certainly aren't in the majority but they are around, alas.
If you are young, enterprising, sensible,child-free and willing to do what it takes, the world is your oyster. Ditto if you are retired and solvent. Trees have roots, people have legs.
But an awful lot of people who say they want to come here are as Steve says unrealistic dreamers and/or losers. You get a lot of the latter in Prague too. They don't starve or end up on the streets, they just go home or move on and maybe they learn from their experiences.


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> maybe they learn from their experiences.


I fear not, these type of people typically tend to be the ones that think the world owes them a favour, they deserve better things and it's always much greener somewhere else


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

ShinyAndy said:


> I fear not, these type of people typically tend to be the ones that think the world owes them a favour, they deserve better things and it's always much greener somewhere else


I fear you may be right.....


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## jockm (Jun 23, 2009)

I have been thinking about what purpose the forum serves - something which is open to interpretation when one reads the by-line "The Spain Expats forum is a dedicated community of people that have moved to Spain. This is the place for Expats to meet and discuss anything including the Spanish way of life, working in Spain, food and property in Spain."

There does seem to be a common perception that further to this, the forum serves to provide advice and share experiences with those who are also interested in joining the Spanish way of life... They may not be already an expat, but keen to find out whether life in Spain may work for them. This is why there are participants from all over the world on the Spain forum. I personally think this is a reasonable expectation of the forum, and I'd say most would agree as many seem happy to share their knowledge and experience with us that are keen to be there!

So, in summary, it's fair enough for people to ask the questions, I believe.

However, the thing that is a bit annoying is when people ask the question without having made any effort to search the forum or even to go a couple of weeks back to see that someone very similar, in similar circumstances, with similar backgrounds, hopes, skills, etc has asked something very similar! I.e. please take the time to write me a lengthy reply tailored to my circumstances so I don't have to bother doing a little bit of research on this very site myself 

Perhaps we need a sticky "Browse these threads first before posting for the latest on the situation in Spain. Things are a wee bit grim". I know that's the way it's meant to work anyway, but it doesn't seem to happen.

I thought the post re: it all depends on you, your circumstances, your skills, motivation etc as to your chances of success was spot on (Shiny Andy). Perhaps the posters who don't have a bit of browse through previous posts to ensure they are "in the know" with the basics are the people who don't understand how to get ahead in the first place?

Just a theory, up for discussion.

Jockm


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Yes jockm, I'd call it laziness expecting everything on a plate & complaining when it doesn't happen.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jockm said:


> .
> 
> However, the thing that is a bit annoying is when people ask the question without having made any effort to search the forum or even to go a couple of weeks back to see that someone very similar, in similar circumstances, with similar backgrounds, hopes, skills, etc has asked something very similar! I.e. please take the time to write me a lengthy reply tailored to my circumstances so I don't have to bother doing a little bit of research on this very site myself
> 
> ...


That is a very sensible suggestion. Some time ago I started a thread entitled 'Do people in the UK know how bad things are in Spain?' or something like that as so many people were posting about coming to Spain to live the dream etc. etc. It was suggested then that there be a sticky on the topic.
I also suggested that we should have some kind of follow-up to see how many posters actually did make the move and stayed for any length of time. 
Now _*that*_ would be interesting...


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## Taurian (Dec 12, 2009)

jockm said:


> I have been thinking about what purpose the forum serves - something which is open to interpretation when one reads the by-line "The Spain Expats forum is a dedicated community of people that have moved to Spain. This is the place for Expats to meet and discuss anything including the Spanish way of life, working in Spain, food and property in Spain."
> 
> There does seem to be a common perception that further to this, the forum serves to provide advice and share experiences with those who are also interested in joining the Spanish way of life... They may not be already an expat, but keen to find out whether life in Spain may work for them. This is why there are participants from all over the world on the Spain forum. I personally think this is a reasonable expectation of the forum, and I'd say most would agree as many seem happy to share their knowledge and experience with us that are keen to be there!
> 
> ...



Very succinctly put Jockm - something that I've been thinking of for some time but, being a relative newbie on the forum, didn't want to make waves myself - especially as I don't live in Spain (yet). As I've become rather addicted to the site (and trying to keep my visits to under 20 a day!!) I do get a bit annoyed at the same old questions that could easily be answered by doing a forum search before posting. A "READ THIS FIRST BEFORE POSTING" sticky could be the answer I think.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> That is a very sensible suggestion.


One of the reasons I started this thread of ramblings was that had I replied to an individual's thread I would have no doubt been open to a rather bitter and terse reply.

Where as in a general thread one can offer an honest opinion without getting an uncalled for backlash (as opposed to deserved backlash ).

Yup good suggestion but whatever you do people will want their own threads and we shouldn't forget that activity keeps sponsors happy.

I can see a sort of Prime ministers question time "I refer the OP to the reply I gave earlier"


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

nigele2 said:


> One of the reasons I started this thread of ramblings was that had I replied to an individual's thread I would have no doubt been open to a rather bitter and terse reply.
> 
> Where as in a general thread one can offer an honest opinion without getting an uncalled for backlash (as opposed to deserved backlash ).
> 
> ...



I agree with that. It does seem "hard work" sometimes when people come on and ask the same things time and again, but yes, the forum needs to keep active and yes people want *their* questions answered, as they feel their questions are individual. It also opens the way to discuss their issues rather than ploughing thru finding similar situations. So I dont mind - in any case the more times a question is asked, the more different opinions come along and the more we all learn. And we get to "meet" more people which is nice!!! I do sometimes worry that our negativity drives some away, we have to be honest, but some dont like to hear it - its a difficult one!? But we need to temper the approach I guess, I try to, but sometimes its not easy! and eventually people have to try it for themselves and make their own mistakes or indeed successes! We dont know everything but we do have to be honest

My favourite analogy is that forums are like bars/pubs (without the booze ), the more people who come along, the more interesting, knowledgeable and fun it becomes IMO

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jockm said:


> However, the thing that is a bit annoying is when people ask the question without having made any effort to search the forum or even to go a couple of weeks back to see that someone very similar, in similar circumstances, with similar backgrounds, hopes, skills, etc has asked something very similar! I.e. please take the time to write me a lengthy reply tailored to my circumstances so I don't have to bother doing a little bit of research on this very site myself
> 
> Just a theory, up for discussion.
> 
> Jockm


Hahaha!
Have you been reading my PMs????!!!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Taurian said:


> Very succinctly put Jockm - something that I've been thinking of for some time but, being a relative newbie on the forum, didn't want to make waves myself - especially as I don't live in Spain (yet). As I've *become rather addicted to the site* (and trying to keep my visits to under 20 a day!!) I do get a bit annoyed at the same old questions that could easily be answered by doing a forum search before posting. A "READ THIS FIRST BEFORE POSTING" sticky could be the answer I think.


What _*is*_ it about this place????
I'm only a member of this forum (and another that I go on much less about Spanish and which is completely different). I'm too scared to go on any more!! My life would be sucked away!!!
Although I don't think so. This forum is the "best" IMO and probably has the highest number of posters and visits which is what makes it more interesting, dynamic and up to date than the others. The quality of the replies is good too, I happen to think. If I was moving to Spain now, this would definitely be a good source of info, and *is* a good source of info for us who have been here for a while. I've learnt A LOT about expat life here - the questions about healthcare, pets, paperwork, etc and also it's very interesting for me to hear the comments about the UK and life there. I have family there and we visit once a year, but it's a very superficial contact and only in one part of the UK. So thanks everybody for keeping me in touch with the real world. 

PS Taurian. If you're on here so much, post more!! (Please)

(I suppose that if I came out from the computer room once in a while I might actually see the real world, but it might be a bit too much to cope with )


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## Taurian (Dec 12, 2009)

Fair comment Pesky but I'm a bit like a sponge - soaking up all the good comments, information and suggestions from people who have made the move and (in the main) know what they are talking about. Hopefully when I'm in a position to make the move in 2/3 yrs time, I won't have to ask the questions that have been asked and answered a zillion times !! At the moment I'm just trying to learn Spanish and learn a bit about the Spanish way of life. I suppose as I'm lurking on here so much, I've got to recognize the regulars and almost feel like you're friends already - how spooky is that!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

There are some weirdos and axe-grinders on other sites and one in particular seems to have more than its fair share of those who feel they have been 'cheated' in some way over property deals and are still complaining years later.
Another keeps banging on about 'Northern Europeans' which for me has uncomfortable undertones of a 'racial' divide.
There's a good mix here and helpful hints for those in need. We are pointed to useful information and sites rather than told what to do by people who've lived here for a couple of years and think they know all the ropes and newbies need hand-holding, which is good.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Taurian said:


> Fair comment Pesky but I'm a bit like a sponge - soaking up all the good comments, information and suggestions from people who have made the move and (in the main) know what they are talking about. Hopefully when I'm in a position to make the move in 2/3 yrs time, I won't have to ask the questions that have been asked and answered a zillion times !! At the moment I'm just trying to learn Spanish and learn a bit about the Spanish way of life. I suppose as I'm lurking on here so much, I've got to recognize the regulars and almost feel like you're friends already - how spooky is that!!




Forumlandia can be *WEIRD!!*

But, what are we doing here?? Nadal is playing!!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

So are Spurs....but the sun is shining...


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> There are some weirdos and axe-grinders on other sites and one in particular seems to have more than its fair share of those who feel they have been 'cheated' in some way over property deals and are still complaining years later.
> Another keeps banging on about 'Northern Europeans' which for me has uncomfortable undertones of a 'racial' divide.
> There's a good mix here and helpful hints for those in need. We are pointed to useful information and sites rather than told what to do by people who've lived here for a couple of years and think they know all the ropes and newbies need hand-holding, which is good.


We all know who they are !  At least coming on here is helpful & enjoyable rather than losing the will to live on some others.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> We all know who they are !  At least coming on here is helpful & enjoyable rather than losing the will to live on some others.


Oh I know!!! I once innocently posted a remark on one site to the effect that I loved life in Spain, Spanish people were welcoming and friendly etc. and I got a shower of replies from embittered old twerps telling me I was living in a fool's paradise, blind, naive etc.etc. Most of their misfortunes seemed due entirely to *their* naivety but of course the wicked corrupt Spanish were to blame..
You get sensible discussion and good-natured argument (which I love) here and a lot of useful info as well.
Such as about snakes..


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## Jaxx (Apr 21, 2010)

jojo said:


> I agree with that. It does seem "hard work" sometimes when people come on and ask the same things time and again, but yes, the forum needs to keep active and yes people want *their* questions answered, as they feel their questions are individual. It also opens the way to discuss their issues rather than ploughing thru finding similar situations. So I dont mind - in any case the more times a question is asked, the more different opinions come along and the more we all learn. And we get to "meet" more people which is nice!!! I do sometimes worry that our negativity drives some away, we have to be honest, but some dont like to hear it - its a difficult one!? But we need to temper the approach I guess, I try to, but sometimes its not easy! and eventually people have to try it for themselves and make their own mistakes or indeed successes! We dont know everything but we do have to be honest
> 
> My favourite analogy is that forums are like bars/pubs (without the booze ), the more people who come along, the more interesting, knowledgeable and fun it becomes IMO
> 
> Jo xxx


Hi all, very interesting reading,and i came on here to gain more knowledge regarding Spain, but it still has not put us off! In answer to some of the posts we are not all wasters! we are coming to Spain because we love the country. We do not intend to live in a closed British community over there and are buying a place in a very rural area with Spanish neighbours. We are already attempting to learn Spanish before we come over as we feel this is essential.We just want a new adventure in our later years. Our kids have flown the nest, we have looked after our parents and now it is our time.Spain here we come.!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Jaxx said:


> Hi all, very interesting reading,and i came on here to gain more knowledge regarding Spain, but it still has not put us off! In answer to some of the posts we are not all wasters! we are coming to Spain because we love the country. We do not intend to live in a closed British community over there and are buying a place in a very rural area with Spanish neighbours. We are already attempting to learn Spanish before we come over as we feel this is essential.We just want a new adventure in our later years. Our kids have flown the nest, we have looked after our parents and now it is our time.Spain here we come.!


Hi Jaxx!
Just to say the aim of people giving info on the forum isn't to put people off, so I'm glad you weren't. I would say people are just trying to give real information about a country that some people have misconceptions about ie the sun, sea and, what was that other "s"? Sangria wasn't it?
Hope you've been able able to glean something useful from the posts and had some fun reading people's comments too.
Great to hear that your trying to learn some Spanish as well. Your new Spanish neighbours will appreciate any little phrase you can come out with.
Where are you moving to? Have you already bought it?


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## Jaxx (Apr 21, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hi Jaxx!
> Just to say the aim of people giving info on the forum isn't to put people off, so I'm glad you weren't. I would say people are just trying to give real information about a country that some people have misconceptions about ie the sun, sea and, what was that other "s"? Sangria wasn't it?
> Hope you've been able able to glean something useful from the posts and had some fun reading people's comments too.
> Great to hear that your trying to learn some Spanish as well. Your new Spanish neighbours will appreciate any little phrase you can come out with.
> Where are you moving to? Have you already bought it?


Hi there, we are hopefully moving just south of Puorto Lumbreras, we have seen a villa we love in the hills, our home in UK just gone on the market so fingers crossed, cant wait to breathe some of that wonderful mountain air. We have decided to retire early after having worked long and hard all our working lives and relax in the warmth.Love the old Spain and want to explore the old villages and see some of the real Spain.Thanks for the comments( been raining here today)!!


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## owdoggy (Jul 23, 2008)

Jaxx said:


> Hi there, we are hopefully moving just south of Puorto Lumbreras, we have seen a villa we love in the hills, our home in UK just gone on the market so fingers crossed, cant wait to breathe some of that wonderful mountain air. We have decided to retire early after having worked long and hard all our working lives and relax in the warmth.Love the old Spain and want to explore the old villages and see some of the real Spain.Thanks for the comments( been raining here today)!!


Aye well, if it's in the hills just be prepared for the cold winters as well ...... and if it's up a good height.... better get yer sledge sorted!



Doggy


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## Jaxx (Apr 21, 2010)

owdoggy said:


> Aye well, if it's in the hills just be prepared for the cold winters as well ...... and if it's up a good height.... better get yer sledge sorted!
> 
> 
> 
> Doggy


Thanks,remember we live in the UK at the moment! we are quite isolated where we live here, so it is not unusual to be snowed in and not be able get to work.We shall buy a 4x4 as we have here and at least will not have to worry about getting to work when we are in Spain as we shall retire, and at least hopefully we shall have some sun in the summer unlike here! Hope it is shining on you today, its raining yet again here!Thanks for the advice x


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## owdoggy (Jul 23, 2008)

Jaxx said:


> Thanks,remember we live in the UK at the moment! we are quite isolated where we live here, so it is not unusual to be snowed in and not be able get to work.We shall buy a 4x4 as we have here and at least will not have to worry about getting to work when we are in Spain as we shall retire, and at least hopefully we shall have some sun in the summer unlike here! Hope it is shining on you today, its raining yet again here! x


Oops! sorry if I sounded a bit negative but just so as you know eh

It's a lovely morning here (about 50km south west of PL), thankyou:yo:



Doggy


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