# Family of 5. Home educated. Move to Lanzarote. Help!



## LanzarotePrinces (Jan 5, 2020)

Hi,

We are a family of 5 (myself, wife, 3 kids aged 15/13/10) and we home educate our children. We have been to Lanzarote many times and all wish to move there. Up until Brexit we had planned to do this when my youngest is 16 but with the whole brexit thing, we now have a time limit of the end of this year. I have a few questions and would appreciate any help...

1: I’ve always been told that it was illegal to home educate in Spain but recently been told that its neither illegal or legal and that it shouldn’t be a problem. We’ve been told that I would need to get an NIE number to move there. Would they ask for proof of my kids going to school before issuing that to me? 

2: We do have a motor home here in the UK and had an idea of driving there and living in a motor home for a year or so whilst we tour Lanzarote and decide where we want to settle. Would I get an NIE number without a fixed premises?

3: I have been self employed in the UK for years and currently earn between £20k and £30k per annum. I do a mixture of music production and videography. I have to pay €250 a month so I am led to believe, to be entitled to use doctors etc in Spain. Would my contribution of €250 cover the whole family?

4: I was talking to a chap in Lanzarote this Xmas time when we were on holiday and he said that if we moved after the brexit transition period finished, we would have to buy a property of at least €500,000 in cash (no mortgage) OR have an income of at least €24,000. If that is true then I could move after brexit and live and have my earnings based in the UK as they are now as most if not all of my earnings are all done through the internet. 

Any help really appreciated. 

Matt


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

LanzarotePrinces said:


> Hi,
> 
> We are a family of 5 (myself, wife, 3 kids aged 15/13/10) and we home educate our children. We have been to Lanzarote many times and all wish to move there. Up until Brexit we had planned to do this when my youngest is 16 but with the whole brexit thing, we now have a time limit of the end of this year. I have a few questions and would appreciate any help...
> 
> ...


 Homeschooling isn't legal in Spain, however it seems there are few prosecutions. Cases are taken to court though. The thinking behind it is that education is a right that is given to the child and if you don't send the child to a recognised centre of learning then you are taking away that right. How homeschooling is dealt with is probably different depending on the region.

This is the biggest homeschooling group in Spain
https://www.educacionlibre.org/
The site is in Spanish as is to be expected, but you could try getting in touch with them.


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## LanzarotePrinces (Jan 5, 2020)

Hi,

Thanks for the reply. I’ve seen a few places saying it isn’t legal but not illegal either, therefore making it a grey area. Will have a look at that website. Wish it was clear cut as don’t want the worry about it whilst over there. One website has stated that it is generally fine as long as you aren’t parading kids around non touristy areas during school hours. Don’t know how getting the NIE would work without showing they are booked in a school though. 

Matt


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

LanzarotePrinces said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for the reply. I’ve seen a few places saying it isn’t legal but not illegal either, therefore making it a grey area. Will have a look at that website. Wish it was clear cut as don’t want the worry about it whilst over there. One website has stated that it is generally fine as long as you aren’t parading kids around non touristy areas during school hours. Don’t know how getting the NIE would work without showing they are booked in a school though.
> 
> Matt


 You don't need to show they are in school.
Please see the FAQ sticky post #1 for what is required in order to get an NIE, and for lots of other info, but also don't forget that Brexit will change the rules for British people wanting to come to Spain


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## LanzarotePrinces (Jan 5, 2020)

Expatica website states this??...

“Home schooling in Spain

Not many parents choose to home school their child in Spain but it’s not illegal and there are organisations such as the Association para le Libre Educacion (ALE) to advise and support those who do.”


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

LanzarotePrinces said:


> Expatica website states this??...
> 
> “Home schooling in Spain
> 
> Not many parents choose to home school their child in Spain but it’s not illegal and there are organisations such as the Association para le Libre Educacion (ALE) to advise and support those who do.”


 Well, you're going to have to pick your way through the info and I think you'll have to do it in Spanish, from Spanish websites. The website you quote is not a particular authority on homeschooling (and just so you know you're not supposed to quote sites that are competitors of this one). 

The law is that children have to be educated and at the moment the only place where it is universally recognised in Spain that children can be educated is in an authorised centre. You will see that homeschooling is not expressly named as being illegal, but neither is it legal. I think it's better to go directly to the Ministry or ALE and probably in Spanish



Here are some examples of info that states it's against the law
https://magnet.xataka.com/educacion/tengo-diez-anos-no-voy-clase-mis-padres-me-educan-casa


> *Educar contra la ley*
> 
> Mientras, hablamos con Yvonne y Andreu de la legalidad del _homeschooling_. La legislación española es clara respecto a ello: *entre los 6 y los 16 años es obligatoria la escolarización salvo en casos muy excepcionales, para los cuales hay que pedir un permiso y justificarlo*. Son los casos de niños artistas, hijos de actores que viajan a menudo o deportistas de élite, por ejemplo, que se educan a distancia a través de CIDEAD, entidad dependiente del Ministerio de Educación. El resto de niños se han de ajustar al artículo 4 de la Ley Orgánica de Educación.


and that it depends on where you are


> Luego, la educación es una competencia autonómica que cada comunidad regula por separado. Así, aunque ninguna tiene potestad para contraponerse a una ley superior, sí se crean *diferencias entre unas comunidades y otras que hacen la vida más o menos fácil a quien, pese a todo, decide educar en casa*.


POR EL RECONOCIMIENTO LEGAL DEL HOMESCHOOLING EN ESPAÑA - Escuela libre Wayra


> ...en España, a las familias que optan por educar a sus hijos fuera del sistema escolar, este derecho no les es reconocido por la administración, y aplicándoles el protocolo de absentismo, los remite a servicios sociales, y fiscalía de menores.


I'm interested in education and have looked at this subject before. There's no doubt that people homeschool in Spain but parents may have problems putting it in to practice.


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## LanzarotePrinces (Jan 5, 2020)

Ah sorry didn’t realise. That’s the problem with the internet, lots of conflicting information. Will look into it a bird more over this week and update.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

One of the problems with homeschooling in a foreign country must surely be the fact that choosing to live permanently in a new cultural would to some degree imply wishing to integrate with that culture. Is it not the case that by preventing your children from assimilating with culture you are limiting their access to many of the shared experiences of other children?. Will it not be difficult for them to learn Spanish etc without the high level of immersion that a school group provides?


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

LanzarotePrinces said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> 4: I was talking to a chap in Lanzarote this Xmas time when we were on holiday and he said that if we moved after the brexit transition period finished, we would have to buy a property of at least €500,000 in cash (no mortgage) OR have an income of at least €24,000. If that is true then I could move after brexit and live and have my earnings based in the UK as they are now as most if not all of my earnings are all done through the internet.
> ...


If the same income requirements are applied to UK citizens after the Brexit transition period ends as those which already apply to other third country citizens, then they will be rather higher than the €24k you quote. These figures are taken from the Spanish Consulate of San Francisco website:-

"Proof of enough periodic income (investments, annuities, sabbaticals and any other source of income) to
live in Spain without working. The minimum income required is 25,560 Euros annually plus 6,390 Euros per
each additional family member. All documentation must be certified translated into Spanish"

http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consul...ularServices/Documents/visas/NonLucrative.pdf


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Yup Matt sounds like a great plan  

One teacher, 3 pupils of differing ages, and a worker dependent on the internet, operating from a motor home on a tiny island that, last I saw, didn't have a campsite that remained open all year?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

nigele2 said:


> Yup Matt sounds like a great plan
> 
> One teacher, 3 pupils of differing ages, and a worker dependent on the internet, operating from a motor home on a tiny island that, last I saw, didn't have a campsite that remained open all year?


I didn't realise how small it was! 

Apparently it's a little smaller than North Lincolnshire!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Lynn R said:


> If the same income requirements are applied to UK citizens after the Brexit transition period ends as those which already apply to other third country citizens, then they will be rather higher than the €24k you quote. These figures are taken from the Spanish Consulate of San Francisco website:-
> 
> "Proof of enough periodic income (investments, annuities, sabbaticals and any other source of income) to
> live in Spain without working. *The minimum income required is 25,560 Euros annually plus 6,390 Euros per*
> ...


Yes, for a family of 5, that's an annual income of 51,120€ at current figures. 

Also, although some consulates will issue a non-lucrative visa based on income from online working, many do insist that NO work is done - anywhere. The income has to be from investments / pensions or similar - not from work.


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## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

xabiaxica said:


> Yes, for a family of 5, that's an annual income of 51,120€ at current figures.
> 
> Also, although some consulates will issue a non-lucrative visa based on income from online working, many do insist that NO work is done - anywhere. The income has to be from investments / pensions or similar - not from work.


And I fear that regardless of ones current status that we will all have to show this level of income as and when we need to apply for our T.I.E. Myself having been asked a few months ago for similar when simply going to upgrade A4 to the tarjeta that says "permanent" on it.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

So Blondbob, are you saying that in order to acquire your permanent residency you were asked to provide proof of an income of around 25,000Euros for yourself? And you are at UK citizen?


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I asked the question above as I can not see how you can be required a non EU level of income when the UK is still a member of the EU.


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## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

kaipa said:


> So Blondbob, are you saying that in order to acquire your permanent residency you were asked to provide proof of an income of around 25,000Euros for yourself? And you are at UK citizen?


Yes that is exactly what I'm saying and I documented my experience here when it happened on the thread titled "Residency / Permanent Residency".


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## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

kaipa said:


> I asked the question above as I can not see how you can be required a non EU level of income when the UK is still a member of the EU.


Well there are many experiences similar documented here and on other social media outlets where requirements vary widely from Office to Office, region to region. But if as I fear we all have to reapply afresh as our actual status will have changed post Brexit ie we are no longer E.U citizens it would be simpler for the Spanish authorities to treat us exactly as a NEW non E.U Citizen applying to reside here.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

How can you be denied permanent residency for not having an income of more than 25.000.00 € if you a uk citizen? I know the amount might be arbitrary but normally income is deemed to be around about 6.000.00- 8.000.00 for EU members?


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

blondebob said:


> ....... it would be simpler for the Spanish authorities to treat us exactly as a NEW non E.U Citizen applying to reside here.


Simpler yes, but incredibly stupid. OK point taken


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## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

kaipa said:


> How can you be denied permanent residency for not having an income of more than 25.000.00 € if you a uk citizen? I know the amount might be arbitrary but normally income is deemed to be around about 6.000.00- 8.000.00 for EU members?


Yes we all know that but who knows how and where and why different offices use different criteria, again examples here on this forum. Maybe a Spanish functionario doesn't put "Brexit" on top of his priorities and just assumes we are already NON E.U citizens......purely speculation as I cannot legislate on how they think. But as we will shortly be NON E.U citizens those rules will probably apply to us. Just planning for the worst and hoping for the best.


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## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

nigele2 said:


> Simpler yes, but incredibly stupid. OK point taken


No argument from me. But we all know how the functionarios in general like an easy life and anything even straying a tiny bit from their "script" is met with a shrug and thats the rules


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Please dont take this the wrong way but I really dont think you were denied residency because you didnt have an income of 25.000.00 Euros as a EU member. I was denied residency myself 3 years ago as I was trying to set myself up as automino and didnt have 3 months proof of income. Later I had a job contract which was 1.000€ a month and this was adequate. No funcionario is going to start assuming things about Brexit as that would be constitute an extreme abuse of their position. Are you sure that you were formally told you couldn't get residency because the UK is going to leave the EU presumably in 2020?


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

blondebob said:


> Yes that is exactly what I'm saying and I documented my experience here when it happened on the thread titled "Residency / Permanent Residency".





kaipa said:


> Please dont take this the wrong way but I really dont think you were denied residency because you didnt have an income of 25.000.00 Euros as a EU member. I was denied residency myself 3 years ago as I was trying to set myself up as automino and didnt have 3 months proof of income. Later I had a job contract which was 1.000€ a month and this was adequate. No funcionario is going to start assuming things about Brexit as that would be constitute an extreme abuse of their position. Are you sure that you were formally told you couldn't get residency because the UK is going to leave the EU presumably in 2020?


When we got our permanent residency back last September we were asked for proof of income for two people €25k or that amount in a banco.

When we first arrived six years ago it was 12K for two people.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

So Megsmum. As a couple you needed to show an income of 12.500.00€ each. That seems reasonable but it is not the non EU rate which is higher. Why would UK citizens who have residency before Brexit be officially told that nothing would change after brexit if in fact everything is going to change. It seem rather contradictory. If the rules will mean we all need non EU levels of incomes and we will need to reapply for our jobs etc it makes no sense for both governments to be telling people to ensure they are legally registered before Brexit?


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## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

kaipa said:


> Please dont take this the wrong way *but I really dont think you were denied residency* because you didnt have an income of 25.000.00 Euros as a EU member. I was denied residency myself 3 years ago as I was trying to set myself up as automino and didnt have 3 months proof of income. Later I had a job contract which was 1.000€ a month and this was adequate. No funcionario is going to start assuming things about Brexit as that would be constitute an extreme abuse of their position. Are you sure that you were formally told you couldn't get residency because the UK is going to leave the EU presumably in 2020?


I did not say anywhere that I was denied residency....I have residency. I simply wanted to upgrade my A4 green Document to say "con caratere permanente" as I said in my posts. As to your reference to the functionarios, it is common knowledge that they interpret things as they see fit on a particular day at a particular time with no logical explanation given.


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## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

kaipa said:


> So Megsmum. As a couple you needed to show an income of 12.500.00€ each. *That seems reasonable but it is not the non EU rate which is higher.* Why would UK citizens who have residency before Brexit be officially told that nothing would change after brexit if in fact everything is going to change. It seem rather contradictory. If the rules will mean we all need non EU levels of incomes and we will need to reapply for our jobs etc it makes no sense for both governments to be telling people to ensure they are legally registered before Brexit?


Neither is it the rate you quote 6-8k euros, in fact almost double the "arbitary figure" you quote. How on earth can you say that the 12.5k figure is "reasonable". Where is this figure derived from that Megsmum was quoted? Can you supply a link to any government site showing this "reasonable" 12.5k euros? At least the figure I and others were quoted were accurate figures for NON E.U applicants.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Sorry I see that you didn't say you were denied residency. I assume then that you showed them that you had an income of 25.000.00€ though and your card/ paper was changed to permanent? Or did you return at a later date and was processed by a different officer?


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I say reasonable as the average salary where I live would be around 12- 14 for a normal job amongst Spanish people. The reason we show incomes is to prove we will not be a burden on that state so that is why I assume it is reasonable


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I also have to add that while it might appear ( to non- spanish speakers) that the funcinarios are simply making the rules up as they go along this is not the case. When I applied recently for a lost card I did the whole interview in Spanish and the officer clearly explained what was required according to the law. He explained that if I returned with my work contract and escritora it would prove that I wouldn't be seen as a burden on the state. I found the whole process perfectly reasonable and clear


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## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

kaipa said:


> *I also have to add that while it might appear ( to non- spanish speakers) that the funcinarios are simply making the rules up as they go along this is not the case.* When I applied recently for a lost card I did the whole interview in Spanish and the officer clearly explained what was required according to the law. He explained that if I returned with my work contract and escritora it would prove that I wouldn't be seen as a burden on the state. I found the whole process perfectly reasonable and clear


You are kidding aren't you?? Even the Spanish say that functionarios are lazy and make it up as they go along and generally make life as difficult as possible.....obviously not all but everyone I know whether British, Belgian Spanish etc has experienced them at one time or another.......surely you must have seen the infamousYou Tube video reflecting this.......if not you must be one of a very few that hasn't. filmed by and written by Spanish.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Blondebob. That video is a humourous creation. It simply reflects peoples opinions to buerocracy. It doesnt actually mean that all funcionarios are mean spirited jobsworths. Anyway I see that you are referring to a French residency card clearly things will be different from thd spanish requirements


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

blondebob said:


> I did not say anywhere that I was denied residency....I have residency. I simply wanted to upgrade my A4 green Document to say "con caratere permanente" as I said in my posts. As to your reference to the functionarios, it is common knowledge that they interpret things as they see fit on a particular day at a particular time with no logical explanation given.


 It may seem that they make it up as they go along, and maybe in some cases they do, but civil servants (= funcionarios) are not given any official or national figure to work with. This is a quote from the regulations taken from the government site here Estancia y residencia - Ministerio del Interior
You will see no amount of money is mentioned. They talk about "recoursos suficientes" and that each case will be assessed individually. The workers _have_ to come up with a figure themselves. I'm not saying it's a good system, but this is the system that's in place.



> (Que los solicitantes...)Disponen, para sí y los miembros de su familia, de *recursos suficientes * para no convertirse en una carga para la asistencia social en España durante su período de residencia, así como de un seguro de enfermedad público o privado que cubra todos los riesgos en España.
> *La valoración de la suficiencia de medios económicos se efectuará de manera individualizada* y, en todo caso, teniendo en cuenta la situación personal y familiar del solicitante. Se considerará acreditación suficiente para el cumplimiento de este requisito la tenencia de recursos que sean superiores al importe que cada año fije la Ley de Presupuestos Generales del Estado para generar el derecho a recibir una prestación no contributiva.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

blondebob said:


> You are kidding aren't you?? Even the Spanish say that functionarios are lazy and make it up as they go along and generally make life as difficult as possible.....obviously not all but everyone I know whether British, Belgian Spanish etc has experienced them at one time or another.......surely you must have seen the infamousYou Tube video reflecting this.......if not you must be one of a very few that hasn't. filmed by and written by Spanish.
> 
> Funcionarios de Leyenda.avi - YouTube


 From 2011.
I never thought I'd be defending civil servants, but I really feel things have moved on since then.


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## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

kaipa said:


> Blondebob. That video is a humourous creation. It simply reflects peoples opinions to buerocracy. It doesnt actually mean that all funcionarios are mean spirited jobsworths. Anyway I see that you are referring to a French residency card clearly things will be different from thd spanish requirements


I have already said I have residency here in Spain. Please explain your reference to French Residency


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## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

Pesky Wesky said:


> From 2011.
> I never thought I'd be defending civil servants, but I really feel things have moved on since then.


Yes I'm sure you are right.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

You quoted " caratere permanente" on your card. Is that castellano? Isnt caratere French?


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## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

kaipa said:


> You quoted " caratere permanente" on your card. Is that castellano? Isnt caratere French?


Ah misspelling Caracter lead you to that assumption oh dear


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Megsmum said:


> When we got our permanent residency back last September we were asked for proof of income for two people €25k or that amount in a banco.
> 
> When we first arrived six years ago it was 12K for two people.





kaipa said:


> So Megsmum. As a couple you needed to show an income of 12.500.00€ each. That seems reasonable but it is not the non EU rate which is higher. Why would UK citizens who have residency before Brexit be officially told that nothing would change after brexit if in fact everything is going to change. It seem rather contradictory. If the rules will mean we all need non EU levels of incomes and we will need to reapply for our jobs etc it makes no sense for both governments to be telling people to ensure they are legally registered before Brexit?


I have no idea what you are referring to. I didn’t mention a non Eu rate, I didn’t question post Brexit residency regarding EU levels of income, I simply quoted what we had to prove as income in September for our permanent card as opposed to proof back in 2014 for our original residency card


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