# I just knew there was a reason I didn't accept Egyptians on my facebook



## MaidenScotland

hiii christina how are u?i need a help from u if u can to send me invition to englad to vist and already i have this visa before but i need invition to renew my visa and i will take it for my wife and i will stay a hotel


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## jojo

MaidenScotland said:


> hiii christina how are u?i need a help from u if u can to send me invition to englad to vist and already i have this visa before but i need invition to renew my visa and i will take it for my wife and i will stay a hotel


At least he isnt declaring undying love and proposing to you lol!!!

Jo xxx


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## hurghadapat

MaidenScotland said:


> hiii christina how are u?i need a help from u if u can to send me invition to englad to vist and already i have this visa before but i need invition to renew my visa and i will take it for my wife and i will stay a hotel


How does he know your name is Christina.....


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## MaidenScotland

He is someone I know from way way back... don't know him well and would probably not recognise him in the street it has been that long.. amazing how a UK passport keeps you fresh in some of their minds.


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## jemiljan

My Egyptian friends on FB never say such things to me, ever.


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## hurghadapat

jemiljan said:


> My Egyptian friends on FB never say such things to me, ever.



Lol.....someone with a UK passport is possibly an opportunity for them to get into the land of milk and honey lane:


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## MaidenScotland

jemiljan said:


> My Egyptian friends on FB never say such things to me, ever.




Maybe they just see me as a soft touch... or you have nicer friends, or friends that can get their own visa.

I have even had people who knowing I work for an embassy, contact me through here asking me to help them get a visa.


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## Siss

jemiljan said:


> My Egyptian friends on FB never say such things to me, ever.


Maybe not yet.... You just wait and see....


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## jemiljan

Siss said:


> Maybe not yet.... You just wait and see....


Siss, in five years time, it's not happened to me- even once, not even in various interest groups I'm involved in- so I fail to see why I should expect it now, or that I should expect Egyptians in general to behave like that towards me in general.

That said, I'm pretty selective whom I associate with, and they are mainly old friends (some more than 2 decades) and very well educated.


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## injinuity

Apologies on sounding like the party pooper, but ahem we are in their country now, so presumably the milk and honey flows in egypt now right, else what are we doing here.. hand on heart whats the answer? 

J.J


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## jemiljan

MaidenScotland said:


> Maybe they just see me as a soft touch... or you have nicer friends, or friends that can get their own visa.


Just mainly old friends (20+ years) and academics, who know better. The visa obstacles are another issue. They don't ask me for invitations, but I will offer them basic advice if they ask, as a relative works for the US State Dept., so I've heard many tips over the years...



MaidenScotland said:


> I have even had people who knowing I work for an embassy, contact me through here asking me to help them get a visa.


Well, now you've let the cat out of the bag! That's annoying to say the least.


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## MaidenScotland

injinuity said:


> Apologies on sounding like the party pooper, but ahem we are in their country now, so presumably the milk and honey flows in egypt now right, else what are we doing here.. hand on heart whats the answer?
> 
> J.J




Me personally... I do not take my money from Egypt... I might be here but I work for a foreign government and take my money from that home country.. I only spend here.. 

and then again we are talking about the view of the west..


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## Siss

jemiljan said:


> Siss, in five years time, it's not happened to me- even once, not even in various interest groups I'm involved in- so I fail to see why I should expect it now, or that I should expect Egyptians in general to behave like that towards me in general.
> 
> That said, I'm pretty selective whom I associate with, and they are mainly old friends (some more than 2 decades) and very well educated.


 I am happy for you jemiljan, you get to associate with very well educated people,and you can choose not to get to know any of the others???? We are not all that "lucky",some of us actually encounter (and get to know) the "Smiths and Jones" of this country.
Again, I am glad you are able to be selective, good for you!


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## Siss

injinuity said:


> Apologies on sounding like the party pooper, but ahem we are in their country now, so presumably the milk and honey flows in egypt now right, else what are we doing here.. hand on heart whats the answer?
> 
> J.J


Hi injinuity! Please do not apologise. There are so many pressing issues in Egypt right now-a party pooper?-no problems!!
Hand on heart answer...here comes....
Some of us are here just because there IS NO MILK AND HONEY in Egypt,hardly anything else either for that matter.....
We do not all come here to get something out of this country.
If you are here for the milk and honey--I hope you have found it!


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## injinuity

I hear you guys and am with you but the fact is that sometimes we try to be holier than the pope, we are expats in a country that hosts us and look down upon those hosts who wish to be expats in our part of the world... that double standards was what I was against ..thats all. 

J.J


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## jemiljan

Siss said:


> I am happy for you jemiljan, you get to associate with very well educated people,and you can choose not to get to know any of the others???? We are not all that "lucky",some of us actually encounter (and get to know) the "Smiths and Jones" of this country.
> Again, I am glad you are able to be selective, good for you!


Did I hit a nerve, Siss? First off, I was speaking strictly of being selective about what associate with on *social media*, not Egyptians in general, and I meant nothing more than that. As someone who first lived here in the 80's with a middle class family, and who currently works with Egyptians from many walks of life in both public and private sectors, I have do "...actually encounter (and get to know) the "Smiths and Jones" of this country...," so your sarcastic comment falls more than a little off the mark. 

All that I meant is simply that the Egyptians I interact in the social media forums devoted to environmental, cultural, human rights, and social issues, are for the most part young, bright, well-educated, and highly motivated. They don't ask me for invitations along the lines of what maiden described. That is all that I meant, nothing more.


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## cairo tiger

injinuity said:


> I hear you guys and am with you but the fact is that sometimes we try to be holier than the pope, we are expats in a country that hosts us and look down upon those hosts who wish to be expats in our part of the world... that double standards was what I was against ..thats all.
> 
> J.J


I just wanted to say that I agree with injinuity. 

The facebook message that that Egyptian man has sent is really not that bad. Sure, maybe he doesn't know you very well and it's a big thing to ask, but he's probably desperate and is trying anything he can. Considering how much complaining everyone here does about Egypt surely you can sympathise with someone who wants to get out and try and start something new with their wife. 

There is so much negativity about Cairo and Egypt on this board. Yeah the country is messed up at the moment, but personally I'm enjoying living here and can see a lot of positives in the beautiful, vibrant chaos of Cairo. 

Anyway I'm new to the board, I've been reading it for a while but only just now felt the need to post


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## MaidenScotland

Actually if you read my post I have said I do not know him very well, he is not on my facebook but he tracked me down, also he says he wants to go for a holiday and take his wife.. no one is saying anything about him emigrating. I am an expat here because I have a skill that my employer wants, I did not approach someone and ask them to make a false invite to get me here keep in mind when you invite someone to your country you are standing as a guarantor etc for them.. what if he disappeared into the wood work?


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## cairo tiger

Fair enough. If you don't feel comfortable being a guarantor then it's a wise decision.

However I do still think that this board could use some positivity towards Egyptians and life in Egypt. That's just my opinion and I guess it's influenced by the fact that I'm enjoying my time here whereas most others seem not to be, which is a shame.


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## jojo

cairo tiger said:


> Fair enough. If you don't feel comfortable being a guarantor then it's a wise decision.
> 
> However I do still think that this board could use some positivity towards Egyptians and life in Egypt. That's just my opinion and I guess it's influenced by the fact that I'm enjoying my time here whereas most others seem not to be, which is a shame.


Can I just "stick my nose" in here and point out that many of the posters on the forum have lived in Egypt for a good many years and are qualified to make the comments they do. A year or so ago there was a major and well documented upheaval there, which forced many people to leave at a minutes notice. There has been unrest eversince. So altho the posters may call Egypt their home and love living there, its not the same place they arrived in and its still unsettled. There are also well known gender issues and being a lady in Egypt, isnt without its problems. There are major cultural and religious differences 

I'm just giving you some background as to the opinions you're reading here, so that you can see and understand why they're made. No one dislikes Egypt or is particularly unhappy, they just understand it and live it. I personally dont live there, nor am I ever likely to, for family reasons 

Jo xxxx


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## MaidenScotland

cairo tiger said:


> I just wanted to say that I agree with injinuity.
> 
> The facebook message that that Egyptian man has sent is really not that bad. Sure, maybe he doesn't know you very well and it's a big thing to ask, but he's probably desperate and is trying anything he can. Considering how much complaining everyone here does about Egypt surely you can sympathise with someone who wants to get out and try and start something new with their wife.
> 
> There is so much negativity about Cairo and Egypt on this board. Yeah the country is messed up at the moment, but personally I'm enjoying living here and can see a lot of positives in the beautiful, vibrant chaos of Cairo.
> 
> Anyway I'm new to the board, I've been reading it for a while but only just now felt the need to post




Its great you enjoy living here... instead of complaining about our complaints why not start a thread saying how wonderful your life here is?
and the nature of the beast tends to be we moan about things that annoy us and that is true of people the whole world over.. just read the other country forums.


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## Gounie

I've made some amazing Egyptian friends through Facebook. I look to see if we have any friends in common and who they are. Are they just collecting female friends with nice photos. Do we have anything in common or interest. Are their posts all in Arabic. I've had some Facebook freinds for years and never met or exchanged messages with. Just love their posts. Mainly they are photographers, desert guides, rally drivers, or living in El Gouna. I've been given many inspirations for travel trips, interested to hear the news from the desert oasis or just be in awe of their photographs and travels. Of course there are a few that bombard you with messages to start with. Just in the process of organising another trip with one who a group of us did an amazing trip into the Eastern Desert:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150796737603255.466652.665383254&type=3&l=4cb4103be8

We will return to watch the El Gouna Rally Cup 2013 in action in the desert. In El Gouna the rally cars will parade in town but there is nothing on offer to go out and see them in action flying over the dunes and getting stuck in the sand  Thank goodness for my Facebook friends


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## jemiljan

Gounie said:


> I've made some amazing Egyptian friends through Facebook. I look to see if we have any friends in common and who they are. Are they just collecting female friends with nice photos. Do we have anything in common or interest. Are their posts all in Arabic. I've had some Facebook freinds for years and never met or exchanged messages with. Just love their posts. Mainly they are photographers, desert guides, rally drivers, or living in El Gouna. I've been given many inspirations for travel trips, interested to hear the news from the desert oasis or just be in awe of their photographs and travels. Of course there are a few that bombard you with messages to start with. Just in the process of organising another trip with one who a group of us did an amazing trip into the Eastern Desert:
> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150796737603255.466652.665383254&type=3&l=4cb4103be8
> 
> We will return to watch the El Gouna Rally Cup 2013 in action in the desert. In El Gouna the rally cars will parade in town but there is nothing on offer to go out and see them in action flying over the dunes and getting stuck in the sand  Thank goodness for my Facebook friends


That was exactly my point! Focused, topic-specific groups bring you in touch with people who share common interests. 

I think a lot of the "moaning and groaning" is due to the fact that many of us are stuck in Cairo, with all of it's interminable problems, while you, Gounie, always seem to be pretty chipper, a trait that I can only ascribe to your location of residence.


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## cairo tiger

The only reason I worry about the negativity on this board is because it might discourage people from coming to Egypt who might really like it.

A few months ago when I was making the decision about whether or not I was going to come over here and work I did a lot of research and stumbled upon this forum. I thought great... a bunch of expats talking about their experiences in Egypt this should be interesting.

Everything I read was along the lines of "I can't understand why anybody would come to Egypt right now"... "if you enjoy feeling unsafe then this is the place for you"...etc. It made me anxious about coming here and really lowered my expectations (which in some ways has been good).

My advice to anyone thinking about coming here is that Egyptians are very friendly, Cairo is great, be sensible and stay out of trouble. If you are lucky enough to live here and earn a "normal" US dollars wage then you will have a very good lifestyle and have a lot of services at your disposal. But regardless of that, it's really a very diverse city with a lot to do and everything is cheap.


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## jojo

cairo tiger said:


> The only reason I worry about the negativity on this board is because it might discourage people from coming to Egypt who might really like it.
> 
> A few months ago when I was making the decision about whether or not I was going to come over here and work I did a lot of research and stumbled upon this forum. I thought great... a bunch of expats talking about their experiences in Egypt this should be interesting.
> 
> Everything I read was along the lines of "I can't understand why anybody would come to Egypt right now"... "if you enjoy feeling unsafe then this is the place for you"...etc. It made me anxious about coming here and really lowered my expectations (which in some ways has been good).
> 
> My advice to anyone thinking about coming here is that Egyptians are very friendly, Cairo is great, be sensible and stay out of trouble. If you are lucky enough to live here and earn a "normal" US dollars wage then you will have a very good lifestyle and have a lot of services at your disposal. But regardless of that, it's really a very diverse city with a lot to do and everything is cheap.


 I know what you mean, we have similar on the Spanish forum. As a forum, we have to balance out desire from reality. It would be lovely to say how wonderful it all is, but, if you dont say how things really are or can be on a day to day level, without the novelty, then you arent preparing people, especially women, who can be lured to making the wrong decisions with male Egyptians - a generalisation maybe, but a real problem. Women dont have the same respect that it afforded to them in the west - thats a warning that again the forum needs to provide.

Its also quite frightening how many posts that we delete on here from Egyptian men trying to make contact with western women. Its only Egyptians, no other nationality and its quite relentless, not to mention the posts we get from love struck girls who've been on holiday to Egypt and have been swept off their feet by an Egyptian waiter, who wants them to marry immediately... blah, blah....

The people on here have done with the novelty of moving to and living in Egypt. Its now where they live. And there are, and always will be the pitfall and problems, which as humans - especially Brits, we love to moan 

I'm sure that once you've been there for a few years, you'll be able to understand that the negative comments are meant to help make informed decisions, not just to be unkind. I'm glad we've heard from someone like yourself who is happily living there with few issues and problems. Continue to post how you're finding it - you're a good balance lol!!!

Jo xxxx


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## MaidenScotland

Please note he is not on my friends list. he tracked me down with the sole purpose of asking me to invite him to the UK.. I am pretty sure he contact every Brit he knew.. regardless of the political situation here what he was doing was asking me was to stand surety for him.. someone I only know in passing.. and just so he could go on holiday!


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## MaidenScotland

cairo tiger said:


> The only reason I worry about the negativity on this board is because it might discourage people from coming to Egypt who might really like it.
> 
> A few months ago when I was making the decision about whether or not I was going to come over here and work I did a lot of research and stumbled upon this forum. I thought great... a bunch of expats talking about their experiences in Egypt this should be interesting.
> 
> Everything I read was along the lines of "I can't understand why anybody would come to Egypt right now"... "if you enjoy feeling unsafe then this is the place for you"...etc. It made me anxious about coming here and really lowered my expectations (which in some ways has been good).
> 
> My advice to anyone thinking about coming here is that Egyptians are very friendly, Cairo is great, be sensible and stay out of trouble. If you are lucky enough to live here and earn a "normal" US dollars wage then you will have a very good lifestyle and have a lot of services at your disposal. But regardless of that, it's really a very diverse city with a lot to do and everything is cheap.



Why worry about it, anyone who is coming here is generally already sold on the idea and nothing is going to put them off not even when we tell them what it is really like to live here year in year out.


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## hurghadapat

cairo tiger said:


> The only reason I worry about the negativity on this board is because it might discourage people from coming to Egypt who might really like it.
> 
> A few months ago when I was making the decision about whether or not I was going to come over here and work I did a lot of research and stumbled upon this forum. I thought great... a bunch of expats talking about their experiences in Egypt this should be interesting.
> 
> Everything I read was along the lines of "I can't understand why anybody would come to Egypt right now"... "if you enjoy feeling unsafe then this is the place for you"...etc. It made me anxious about coming here and really lowered my expectations (which in some ways has been good).
> 
> My advice to anyone thinking about coming here is that Egyptians are very friendly, Cairo is great, be sensible and stay out of trouble. If you are lucky enough to live here and earn a "normal" US dollars wage then you will have a very good lifestyle and have a lot of services at your disposal. But regardless of that, it's really a very diverse city with a lot to do and everything is cheap.



I take it that you are relatively new to living in Egypt and if you are then yes i am sure you are finding it all very different and exciting as we all did when we first arrived but believe me after you have lived there for a year or two and all the excitement has worn off then you see Egypt through totally different eyes and things that where funny or amusing become frustrations that over time become difficult to live with on a daily basis.I am pleased to hear that you are enjoying it and long may you continue to do so but on the other hand don't be critical of people who have a lot more experience of living there and are not afraid to say what life can really be like.


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## mamasue

hurghadapat said:


> I take it that you are relatively new to living in Egypt and if you are then yes i am sure you are finding it all very different and exciting as we all did when we first arrived but believe me after you have lived there for a year or two and all the excitement has worn off then you see Egypt through totally different eyes and things that where funny or amusing become frustrations that over time become difficult to live with on a daily basis.I am pleased to hear that you are enjoying it and long may you continue to do so but on the other hand don't be critical of people who have a lot more experience of living there and are not afraid to say what life can really be like.



I totally agree with Pat.....
I went to Egypt to be a scuba-diving instructor. My plan was stay forever, or leave in 2 weeks, or something in between...
For the first year, I thought I was in heaven....My dream job, after working for the NHS in the UK..
For years 2 and 3, it was still fun, the sun shone every day, but working with Egyptians was often hard...getting the simplest thing done was often almost impossible...
Year 4, I was looking for jobs elsewhere. But I had some good friends, Egyptian and otherwise....went to work in the UAE for a short while....saw a totally (much better) way of life in a muslim country...I was respected and treated well... and decided I was done in Egypt
Went back to Egypt, sold off all my stuff, and left Egypt forever.

I suppose, my point is... when you first arrive, you're still in 'holiday mode', and it takes a couple of years for the 'reality check', as Pat says.


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## cairo tiger

Yes I have no doubt that I'm probably in some sort of honeymoon period at the moment and that I also benefit from being male which makes things a fair bit easier around here.

Just putting my perspective out there and I also work with a couple of other expats who have been here for 3 and 5 years each and they are both still having a good time.


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## jemiljan

cairo tiger said:


> Yes I have no doubt that I'm probably in some sort of honeymoon period at the moment and that I also benefit from being male which makes things a fair bit easier around here.
> 
> Just putting my perspective out there and I also work with a couple of other expats who have been here for 3 and 5 years each and they are both still having a good time.


My advice: take some time to learn the language. I have often noticed that aside from gender (which you mentioned), language is a major factor in the ability to survive here and enjoy it. No, I don't mean just saying "la shukran" and "bukra malesh", but sincerely learn some basic Egyptian colloquial (_'ameyya_) at a minimum, as well as learning the alphabet along with some basic grammar. Be assured that your hard work will pay off big dividends. At the very least, it can prevent many problems communicating with Egyptians that so many expats seem to suffer with. Egyptians also generally appreciate it when they see someone trying to make a concerted effort to learn the language too.


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## Helen Ellis

injinuity said:


> Apologies on sounding like the party pooper, but ahem we are in their country now, so presumably the milk and honey flows in egypt now right, else what are we doing here.. hand on heart whats the answer?
> 
> J.J


I'm here because this is one of the few countries I can afford to live in without working. So I don't work and take a job from an Egyptian. I have a year round holiday! Note that when I did work in Egypt many moons ago, I had a work permit.


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## Helen Ellis

cairo tiger said:


> Fair enough. If you don't feel comfortable being a guarantor then it's a wise decision.
> 
> However I do still think that this board could use some positivity towards Egyptians and life in Egypt. That's just my opinion and I guess it's influenced by the fact that I'm enjoying my time here whereas most others seem not to be, which is a shame.


Most people I know love living here, however with a few exceptions they do not go round with wearing rose tinted glasses. 
After several years of seeing others ripped of by spouses, business partners, taxi drivers, boabs, shopkeepers ,so called friends etc, I have no illusions that Egyptians, or some at least, are any different morally from anyone anywhere else.


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## Homeless

Helen Ellis said:


> Most people I know love living here, however with a few exceptions they do not go round with wearing rose tinted glasses.
> After several years of seeing others ripped of by spouses, business partners, taxi drivers, boabs, shopkeepers ,so called friends etc, I have no illusions that Egyptians, or some at least, are any different morally from anyone anywhere else.


If I understand you correctly you were stating that Egyptians or some Egyptians have the same moral values as anyone elsewhere. If that was what you meant I completely disagree. I like to generalize to make a point and expect the reader to understand that for every rule there's and exception. That's just common sense.

Egyptians use a set of moral values that is derived from an old set of values that are vaguely based on their understanding of religion. They then took those moral values and *******ized them as they tried to survive the daily chaos of Egyptian living.

-Egyptians believe that no human being can do good without fear, be it of -punishment, embarrassment or whatever. 
-Muslims will ultimately end up in Heaven. With some worshiping many believe they can skip hell altogether.
-Those who do not believe in God are going to hell no matter how much good they do and the ones who follow another religion will certainly start in hell but few may end up in heaven. (which of course means that Muslims are better people than non believers and what follows from that is obvious)

What follows is a predatory behavior and reasoning that is unequaled on this planet. No specie that I know of behave in that manner, not animals, not insects and certainly not human beings as we like to think of ourselves. Logically speaking, and I don't know for a fact, there may be other human beings somewhere in the world who behave in similar ways and they will likely have a long disastrous history similar to that of Egyptians.

So a driver will drive the wrong way while praying out loud for god's forgiveness.
Another driver (who was driving my car while lecturing me on the superior Islamic values) hits a parked car and not stop then explains to me that hitting a parked car is not as bad as hitting a pedestrian. And while we're on the subject of drivers, twice I was hit while standing just off the side walk (attempting to cross the road) by a car backing up the wrong way and they both hit me intentionally to get me out of the way. They explained that I was looking only in one direction (where the cars are suppose to be coming) and not the opposite direction and therefore I was partially at fault. One was a middle aged man and the other was a veiled young woman driving an expensive car.

A after buying a property and all contracts are signed, a seller removed some electrical *wiring* and exchanged appliances with lower quality ones. The wiring she removed was thrown in the garbage and will cost the buyer thousands and the appliances were not worth that much money relative to the whole deal. She explained that the buyer didn't pay that much attention the brands of the appliances and therefore he did not know that anything was different and in that case that was not stealing.

It all revolves around those few concepts. If you can get away with it (absence of fear) do it and with some praying you will be forgiven and worse case scenario you may go to hell for a little bit but Muslims end up in heaven.

Take those Egyptians who you must trust into a little experiment/test or even a simple logical discussion and you will invariably get the same results.


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## Homeless

cairo tiger said:


> The only reason I worry about the negativity on this board is because it might discourage people from coming to Egypt who might really like it.
> 
> A few months ago when I was making the decision about whether or not I was going to come over here and work I did a lot of research and stumbled upon this forum. I thought great... a bunch of expats talking about their experiences in Egypt this should be interesting.
> 
> Everything I read was along the lines of "I can't understand why anybody would come to Egypt right now"... "if you enjoy feeling unsafe then this is the place for you"...etc. It made me anxious about coming here and really lowered my expectations (which in some ways has been good).
> 
> My advice to anyone thinking about coming here is that Egyptians are very friendly, Cairo is great, be sensible and stay out of trouble. If you are lucky enough to live here and earn a "normal" US dollars wage then you will have a very good lifestyle and have a lot of services at your disposal. But regardless of that, it's really a very diverse city with a lot to do and everything is cheap.


Only insane people *like living* in Egypt. Give me any other reason I will understand.

I was there last month and pretty much locked myself up in my hotel room to avoid conflict, injury or death. How many getting hit by a car close-calls will you tolerate before you hate walking down the street? How much honking can you hearing sense bear before you start going out with ear plugs? How much can your lungs take? How many time can you tolerate someone jumping in front of you in a line at the market? I was in world gym in Heliopolis a couple of weeks ago when one of the trainer grabbed my arms while training in an effort to force-train me  he offer me advise a couple of time and I thanked him and told that I was not interested which obviously wounded his ego so on day while I was training he came again offering advise and after politely dismissing him yet again he forcefully grabbed my arms to show me what he thinks is proper technique.
These are only few of the things that no reasonable and sane human being can ever get used to, take precautions for or imagine anything like that could ever happen to him/her. And no amount of money can ever shield you from them "living" a normal life; that is have any contact with so called human beings.


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## jemiljan

Homeless said:


> What follows is a predatory behavior and reasoning that is unequaled on this planet. No specie that I know of behave in that manner, not animals, not insects and certainly not human beings as we like to think of ourselves. Logically speaking, and I don't know for a fact, there may be other human beings somewhere in the world who behave in similar ways and they will likely have a long disastrous history similar to that of Egyptians.


OK, but I've also been personally robbed and taken advantage of by people who happen to be Copts in the past. My company has had to sue and has been counter-sued by another Copt who signed a contract and failed to deliver the goods after a year's worth of excuses. Another company owned by an Egyptian Christian agreed to make product according to a model with rigorous specifications, but then instead delivered grossly sub-standard products, insisted that he had met his obligations, demanded the balance for the payment, and sued us when we balked.

Since you're such an expert and have so carefully analysed how religion is such an essential factor in this type of behaviour exhibited by Egyptian Muslims, can you tell me precisely what about Christianity in Egypt motivates such remarkably similar behaviour to that of the Muslims you've described? Or perhaps you can also explain why the devout Muslims who I know- and work closely with- are horrified by such grossly unethical behaviour, for they too know that they can be- or have been- victims of it themselves? 

Suffice it to say that what you've posted is a combination of post hoc and hasty generalisation logical fallacies. The fact is that there are people here who will take advantage of foreigners, just as they will readily take advantage of their fellow Egyptians. Religion isn't necessarily the primary motivating factor at all, though it can certainly be used as a pretext; it's simply plain old human selfishness and greed. While I am in no way denying that what you describe doesn't occur, your overtly sectarian rationale and essentialist hyperbole strike me as the epitome of the smug, sour, jaded expat who really doesn't want to be here in the first place.


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## MaidenScotland

jemiljan said:


> OK, but I've also been personally robbed and taken advantage of by people who happen to be Copts in the past. My company has had to sue and has been counter-sued by another Copt who signed a contract and failed to deliver the goods after a year's worth of excuses. Another company owned by an Egyptian Christian agreed to make product according to a model with rigorous specifications, but then instead delivered grossly sub-standard products, insisted that he had met his obligations, demanded the balance for the payment, and sued us when we balked.
> 
> Since you're such an expert and have so carefully analysed how religion is such an essential factor in this type of behaviour exhibited by Egyptian Muslims, can you tell me precisely what about Christianity in Egypt motivates such remarkably similar behaviour to that of the Muslims you've described? Or perhaps you can also explain why the devout Muslims who I know- and work closely with- are horrified by such grossly unethical behaviour, for they too know that they can be- or have been- victims of it themselves?
> 
> Suffice it to say that what you've posted is a combination of post hoc and hasty generalisation logical fallacies. The fact is that there are people here who will take advantage of foreigners, just as they will readily take advantage of their fellow Egyptians. Religion isn't necessarily the primary motivating factor at all, though it can certainly be used as a pretext; it's simply plain old human selfishness and greed. While I am in no way denying that what you describe doesn't occur, your overtly sectarian rationale and essentialist hyperbole strike me as the epitome of the smug, sour, jaded expat who really doesn't want to be here in the first place.




Well said...


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## jemiljan

Homeless said:


> Only insane people *like living* in Egypt. Give me any other reason I will understand.
> 
> I was there last month and pretty much locked myself up in my hotel room to avoid conflict, injury or death. How many getting hit by a car close-calls will you tolerate before you hate walking down the street? How much honking can you hearing sense bear before you start going out with ear plugs? How much can your lungs take? How many time can you tolerate someone jumping in front of you in a line at the market? I was in world gym in Heliopolis a couple of weeks ago when one of the trainer grabbed my arms while training in an effort to force-train me  he offer me advise a couple of time and I thanked him and told that I was not interested which obviously wounded his ego so on day while I was training he came again offering advise and after politely dismissing him yet again he forcefully grabbed my arms to show me what he thinks is proper technique.
> These are only few of the things that no reasonable and sane human being can ever get used to, take precautions for or imagine anything like that could ever happen to him/her. And no amount of money can ever shield you from them "living" a normal life; that is have any contact with so called human beings.


Oy vey! You're initial complaints are obviously about life in Cairo... obviously, this isn't the place for you, but I'm sorry, you really have no basis for characterising anyone who likes living here as "insane". 

Where's Gounie? He'll describe something that flatly contradicts your intensely biased narrative. I've said before that he obviously enjoys living here precisely because he doesn't live in Cairo, and I'm envious of that. 

Concerning your gym experience, Do you honestly expect me to believe that your subjective experience at one gym occurs to all women in every gym in Egypt? Did you get this guy's name, complain to the management, or failing that, report him on the feedback form on their website? Granted, I fully understand that being female in Egypt- especially when young and single- has its difficulties. 

The problems here are simply different. Perhaps that's because life wasn't always perfect for me back home either, so I have a different perspective. In washington, I endured living around endless violent crime, murders, muggings, rapes, not to mention the gang warfare. Oh, and don't get me started about my shady landlords or dishonest businesses that I dealt with too. Sure, traffic is crazy here, but it wasn't great there either. I detested driving there, but was forced to do it.

So do understand if I dare say that your calling others "insane" is an extreme generalisation, and one clearly rooted in your own subjective personal experience. I first came here over two decades ago, stayed with a host family while I learned the language, and while life wasn't perfect then- nor is it now- I did find that I was able to live a pretty decent life here. So by all means go right ahead and call me 'crazy' all you like, but do forgive me if I happen to like my job and find life in Maadi pretty comfortable. It may not be as idyllic as what Gounie describes, but even despite the uncertain political and economic situation, the perks still outweigh the minuses for me personally.


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## cairo tiger

Homeless said:


> What follows is a predatory behavior and reasoning that is unequaled on this planet. No specie that I know of behave in that manner, not animals, not insects and certainly not human beings as we like to think of ourselves. Logically speaking, and I don't know for a fact, there may be other human beings somewhere in the world who behave in similar ways and they will likely have a long disastrous history similar to that of Egyptians.


This is a despicable post.

Perhaps while you were in Cairo your attitude brought out the worst in those around you.


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## Homeless

jemiljan said:


> OK, but I've also been personally robbed and taken advantage of by people who happen to be Copts in the past. My company has had to sue and has been counter-sued by another Copt who signed a contract and failed to deliver the goods after a year's worth of excuses. Another company owned by an Egyptian Christian agreed to make product according to a model with rigorous specifications, but then instead delivered grossly sub-standard products, insisted that he had met his obligations, demanded the balance for the payment, and sued us when we balked.


I have only one very close Coptic friend and as much as he tries to portray himself as having different set of values and beliefs, they're not much different. But I have to say of him that he is one of very few people that I trust to a great extent.

In any case, copts, jews (if there any left) Hindus or species from Mars will have the same or very similar behavior and base it on whatever they like as a way to absolve themselves of responsibility to be able to sleep at night.
Re-read my post as I clearly stated the following:
"old set of values that are vaguely based on their understanding of religion. They then took those moral values and *******ized them as they tried to survive the daily chaos of Egyptian living." 



jemiljan said:


> Since you're such an expert and have so carefully analysed how religion is such an essential factor in this type of behaviour exhibited by Egyptian Muslims, can you tell me precisely what about Christianity in Egypt motivates such remarkably similar behaviour to that of the Muslims you've described? Or perhaps you can also explain why the devout Muslims who I know- and work closely with- are horrified by such grossly unethical behaviour, for they too know that they can be- or have been- victims of it themselves?



I am in fact an expert on Egyptian Muslims because I had access to thousand of them and not so many Copts. Not intentionally just how it happened.
I grew up in Egypt and went to public schools there and all my friend with one exception were Muslims. My entire family are Muslims. I did not seek Copts as I did not set out to conduct research of some sort. I spent 17 years in Egypt living the life of an average Egyptian/Muslim boy and was indoctrinated in the same way as everyone else. My friend was great BUT he was Copt. There's always this "but". He's Copt but he's OK. 27 years later when I returned to Egypt for volunteer work the same mentality existed. Some reminisce about the good old days when Egyptians were more liberal and free. Well that was never the case. Outwardly may be but the beliefs were exactly the same.

-The minister of tourism is great and seems to be very consciousness.
-Do you know he's a copt. (referring to Nour Eldin the minster before the current one)
- Yes I'm aware of that.
-Imagine the Coptic minister has far more integrity than all those Muslim minsters.

That's a normal conversation.

Yes I know Egyptian Muslims all too well. I know many very good Egyptians and the sad part is that the underlying principals that they believe in is fundamentally corrupt and yet they are unaware of how detrimental it is to the society. They may not behave in a negative way but they support that behavior in principal. I'm tired of giving examples so I will let you ponder this one.


A few years ago I used to write posts similar to yours, though unlike you I actually read what they wrote, in reply to Mamasue (i think she used a different name then) and others on a different forums for writing negatively about Egyptians and really what they wrote was nothing compared to what I am writing now and what I really think of Egyptians.
I was also critical of Egyptians who wrote badly about Egyptians. 

I can not advise you to do anything different or try to delve in deeper in Egyptian society because first, you will not be able to unless you learn the language and spend decades there and two it would make you life in Egypt quite miserable.



jemiljan said:


> Suffice it to say that what you've posted is a combination of post hoc and hasty generalisation logical fallacies. The fact is that there are people here who will take advantage of foreigners, just as they will readily take advantage of their fellow Egyptians. Religion isn't necessarily the primary motivating factor at all, though it can certainly be used as a pretext; it's simply plain old human selfishness and greed. While I am in no way denying that what you describe doesn't occur, your overtly sectarian rationale and essentialist hyperbole strike me as the epitome of the smug, sour, jaded expat who really doesn't want to be here in the first place.


It would help you a great deal in making an argument to reply to what you read not what you think you read.


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## Gounie

jemiljan said:


> Oy vey! You're init
> Where's Gounie? He'll describe something that flatly contradicts your intensely biased narrative. I've said before that he obviously enjoys living here precisely because he doesn't live in Cairo, and I'm envious of that.


Here I am 

And I'm a 'she' 

Loving every minute of the last ten years that I have owned my own apartment in Egypt. Travelled all over this beautiful country. And no, I am not interested in looking for an Egyptian boyfriend or husband or any other nationality for that matter. Just love to bits my single life in Egypt with my two cats


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## Homeless

jemiljan said:


> Oy vey! You're initial complaints are obviously about life in Cairo... obviously, this isn't the place for you, but I'm sorry, you really have no basis for characterising anyone who likes living here as "insane".
> 
> Where's Gounie? He'll describe something that flatly contradicts your intensely biased narrative. I've said before that he obviously enjoys living here precisely because he doesn't live in Cairo, and I'm envious of that.
> 
> Concerning your gym experience, Do you honestly expect me to believe that your subjective experience at one gym occurs to all women in every gym in Egypt? Did you get this guy's name, complain to the management, or failing that, report him on the feedback form on their website? Granted, I fully understand that being female in Egypt- especially when young and single- has its difficulties.
> 
> The problems here are simply different. Perhaps that's because life wasn't always perfect for me back home either, so I have a different perspective. In washington, I endured living around endless violent crime, murders, muggings, rapes, not to mention the gang warfare. Oh, and don't get me started about my shady landlords or dishonest businesses that I dealt with too. Sure, traffic is crazy here, but it wasn't great there either. I detested driving there, but was forced to do it.
> 
> So do understand if I dare say that your calling others "insane" is an extreme generalisation, and one clearly rooted in your own subjective personal experience. I first came here over two decades ago, stayed with a host family while I learned the language, and while life wasn't perfect then- nor is it now- I did find that I was able to live a pretty decent life here. So by all means go right ahead and call me 'crazy' all you like, but do forgive me if I happen to like my job and find life in Maadi pretty comfortable. It may not be as idyllic as what Gounie describes, but even despite the uncertain political and economic situation, the perks still outweigh the minuses for me personally.


My observations are 'living in Cairo' while spending about a third of my time in Sinai.

I am a man not a woman. You are clearly defensive and mixing things up so I will make it simpler for you. My entire writing on this forum focused on two different subjects.
1- Don't go to Egypt because life in Egypt is not considered "living" but rather existing in some way. So when I give example of the kind of daily nuisance one encounters, like the gym incident I am illustrating how every daily/mundane activity could turn into a hassle.

2- Egyptians are morally corrupt. Not inherently corrupt but thats who they are not. That's my view.


Your comment about making a complaint to the gym management reminded me of a very astute observation made to me last year. He told me that I was too reasonable and logical with people that do not understand logic or reason. 
A couple of weeks ago or so I was in Cilantros in Korba and after having a bit of desert and a drink I asked for and was directed to the washroom. There's was a line up so I decided to wait till I got back to my Hotel. As I was leaving I asked the manager who standing beside the cashier what the capacity of the cafe was, after a bit of stupidity he answered 100 so I asked him if it made sense to have one single washroom for a possible 100 guests. His answer was that they were not going to build a 100 washroom to suit their guests.
You can say that what made my life more difficult in Egypt is I always asked, commented, inquired, suggested, complained, offered help and discussed.
The level of backwardness of Egyptians boggles any mind.

On the insanity part, yes I can not accept that any sane person would freely choose to live in such a hell hole. Who can stand the rudeness, loud, filthy corrupt, and holier than thou society. 

Well enjoy you stay and best of luck to one and all. I'm done with Egypt and everything relating.......hint hint.


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## jemiljan

Gounie said:


> Here I am
> 
> And I'm a 'she'


Doh! My sincerest apologies!


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## jemiljan

Homeless said:


> I can not advise you to do anything different or try to delve in deeper in Egyptian society because first, you will not be able to unless you learn the language and spend decades there and two it would make you life in Egypt quite miserable.


Ya ragil, do yourself a favor and spare me your patronising comments and condescending remarks. While I may not have lived here 'ala tool, I've lived here for extended periods over the course of many years, have seriously studied the language, and lived with middle class Egyptians! Furthermore, I personally know many others who've spent far more time here than you have, have an excellent command of the language, and for some strange reason, they are neither miserable nor bitter as you seem to be. 



> It would help you a great deal in making an argument to reply to what you read not what you think you read.


It is pretty clear that I was hardly alone to perceive and construe your comments the way that I did. I don't care who you are, what your background is, or how long you've lived here: nothing you have posted in any way justifies making such sweeping, hasty generalisations or your obvious penchant for confirmation bias. Needless to say, if you post incendiary comments riddled with logical fallacies in a public forum, then you shouldn't be too surprised to receive some cogent criticism in return.


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## jemiljan

Homeless said:


> My observations are 'living in Cairo' while spending about a third of my time in Sinai.


Lucky you!



> You are clearly defensive and mixing things up so I will make it simpler for you.


Yet simply put, you are nonchalantly accusing other people whom you don't know from a hole in the wall of being "insane". Forgive me, but hardly think that you are in much of a position to make such patently ridiculous accusations. 



> My entire writing on this forum focused on two different subjects.
> 
> 1- Don't go to Egypt because life in Egypt is not considered "living" but rather existing in some way. So when I give example of the kind of daily nuisance one encounters, like the gym incident I am illustrating how every daily/mundane activity could turn into a hassle.


"Living" is how you choose to define it. Again, as is what you deem to be true always necessarily always true for others? No. 

Sorry dude, but you're just making another hasty generalisation based upon highly an obvious penchant for confirmation bias. It's neither sound logic nor a valid argument. 



> 2- Egyptians are morally corrupt... That's my view.


Do I hear the pot calling the kettle black? 

If you learn to avoid making obvious hasty generalisations that are pretty much based upon your own inherent biases, then perhaps others might take your comments more seriously? 

While I will admit that life here has it's share of problems and challenges, I am in no way inclined to agree with such ridiculously exaggerated proclamations, considering that I know many Egyptians personally who in no way conform to your desired narrative. 



> On the insanity part, yes I can not accept that any sane person would freely choose to live in such a hell hole. Who can stand the rudeness, loud, filthy corrupt, and holier than thou society.


Well, clearly you can't deal with living here, but obviously that's your problem, not mine. Just because you have issues doesn't automatically mean that 1) your exaggerated assessments and justifications are entirely unbiased and accurate, or 2) that everyone who begs to differ with your reactionary hyperbole is "insane". 

Personally, I would never imply that using extreme, inherently biased, and highly unethical argument tactics is somehow "moral".


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