# Hi Everyone



## offthegrid (Jan 21, 2014)

I thought I would post this up to introduce myself.

We are a couple, looking to move to Portugal and buy a property.

The property is, what we would call a small farm / smallholding.

Currently we run our own businesses, which are internet based.

We are looking to learn " the whole process " - moving, buying, living, working as self employed etc, etc in Portugal.

We are looking to make this move in the next 3 years.

We are very excited about learning the facts from people who have already travelled this path, who are willing to pass on their experiences and knowledge. 

Looking forward to our chats.


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## Pablo91 (Jan 30, 2013)

Welcome  

Know any specific region of Portugal? 

Any idea of the dimensions of the property you are looking for? You want to cultivate? I have a small orchard and some olive trees, about an acre and I am thinking to buy one just agricultural property in this area. 

Have preference for certain regions or tourist prefers somewhere further inland? 

These are important questions to answer before you decide where to move 

Regards


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

That's a big question be better if you did a search on here first and then come back with questions
I would say that if your intention is this "what we would call a small farm / smallholding" then don't underestimate the time and extremely hard work reguired to maintain it, with very little likehood of profit/breakeven if that was your intention, if you want self sufficiency you can achieve that with a far more modest m2 of land.


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## maidentales (Mar 29, 2010)

If I explain about our own situation that may help you - which is that we have a small rural quinta which has around 1.5 acres. The land under a private arrangement is farmed by neighbours who have no land but who have a tractor.

1.5 acres would be too much for us to manage ourselves without a tractor or the use of some sort of machinery although if it wasn't farmed, we could plant small fruit trees or olive trees because planting isn't allowed within 50 meters of a house.

Where you wish to purchase a house could depend on your budget. Nearer to larger towns or cities, usually means higher prices but not always and into deep rural areas of Portugal whereby the prices can be lower.

Rural properties are, from my experience, generally not desired by the younger population of Portugal who have preferences for a non farming life and therefore the asking prices can be lower as you get out into the sticks.

There are some websites for your search:

Pure Portugal

Rightmove - look under Overseas and click into Portugal

For just a couple of examples as you can do your own search.

The climate is different as you work your way north to south, with the north generally wetter and the Algarve generally drier, although all of Portugal can be wet over the winter period which climate can change on a year on year basis.

It is generally cooler in the summer but not always so the further north you go.

The rural communities may or may not contain English speaking people, may be small villages or larger villages.

Perhaps you could consider what you are looking for by way of a social life and decide from there, such as the rural areas that have more Ex Pats have - I believe that there are a lot of Ex Pats in the areas of Oliveira do Hospital, Miranda de Covo and the Algarve although there will be many more areas if you are looking for this.

The Algarve is an overall more expensive place in which to live in general with inland and away from the coast in a similar situation.

It is a big question to answer as it's a bigger country than is perhaps originally thought and there's a lot of different areas and almost the ability to find what you're looking for from north to south even in towns which are on bigger plots.

Hope this helps a little in your decision.


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## noserhodes (Sep 13, 2011)

hi all i wonder if canoeman or anyone else can confirm if maidentales statement is fact or fiction in regards to no planting of trees etc within 50 metres of housing?
we have olive trees on nextdoor neighbours plot planted 3 metres away from our gable end wall and actually now touching our property.
i have continually badgered our local camara on issue and as yet i am still being ignored with requests to prune back or uproot.
thankyou in advance as always for responses


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## maidentales (Mar 29, 2010)

*Trees*

Hi

Perhaps I should expand further on what we've been advised by friends both English and Portuguese about trees as I'm not sure of the ACTUAL regulations direct.

We have been advised that you can plant smaller trees such as olive trees or orange trees, sorry, perhaps I didn't explain it well - it's planting a FOREST within 50 meters - sorry as it could have been misleading but it wasn't intentionally so.

However, I'm learning about responding so if anyone does have any information that would also be useful perhaps for other members and myself as I'm only going on the information I've received from friends that this is the case.

Something to do with incedios in the summer months.


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## maidentales (Mar 29, 2010)

There is some information here although finding the distance could take further investigation as I think we've also got some "forest" which could be closer than this.

Agenda 21 - Portugal


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## maidentales (Mar 29, 2010)

Oh - and welcome to the possibility of a future in Portugal.

It's a beautiful country but with difficult regulations that can be worked with although not always very easily but it can be worked with none the less.

For example, I use a UK website for my work access although it's a difficult one whether or not I declare my earnings (which are very little - less than £500 pa) in the UK or I am ALSO required to complete a tax return in Portugal.

What' I've been finding is that the UK says one thing and Portugal says another and not all offices in Portugal are as co-operative as others. It makes it difficult to know if one is right or wrong!

I believe what you have to do is, if you pay your NI and tax in the UK, then you (like me) would have to complete a UK tax return.

If you live in Portugal for more than 183 days consecutive in any one year then I believe that you are considered tax resident in Portugal for that year and have to complete a Portuguese tax return, together with a UK tax return.

It's something I'm also learning about as I've been somewhat nomadic since 2004.

I think you can opt to pay your tax in the UK or pay your tax in Portugal - and I believe that Portugal has a double taxation agreement with the UK which would mean that you shouldn't pay tax on the same income. Input invited on this please.

However, Portugal has a lot of gllitches and I'm not entirely sure that this would run as smoothly as that, so it's difficult to know what to say unless someone who has been in Portugal for longer than I have on a regular basis can share their experience on completing the two tax returns.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

noserhodes said:


> hi all i wonder if canoeman or anyone else can confirm if maidentales statement is fact or fiction in regards to no planting of trees etc within 50 metres of housing?
> we have olive trees on nextdoor neighbours plot planted 3 metres away from our gable end wall and actually now touching our property.
> i have continually badgered our local camara on issue and as yet i am still being ignored with requests to prune back or uproot.
> thankyou in advance as always for responses


The laws relate to Forested areas rather than your description, need to check this link :: — ICNF as it used to take you to the manual & diagrams that explained law but now doesn't but a search using gestao onwards might bring it up

The Law on Tax returns is extremely simple if you're a Resident or the tax authorities *consider you a tax resident* then you must file a return, should you fall into this category then if you earn money outside Portugal then regardless of amount it must be declared + tax paid in country of work, extremely simple the specific section, columns & country codes all there, yes there is a treaty and yes the two Tax authorities do communicate, if you ask the right questions both Tax authorities will tell you exactly the same thing and also post the information on their sites, it's not that you opt to pay here or UK generally you pay Tax & National Insurance in the country you earn the money and declare in country of Residence


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## maidentales (Mar 29, 2010)

*Thank you*

Canoeman, again thank you and I will take a look at the relevant websites to obtain as much information as possible.

At the moment the law does not consider me tax resident in Portugal but it will change I suspect if you see my other post.

I'm a law abiding citizen ! 

I've got no problems with that one.

Thank you also for the news on the trees as per the original thread that may have slightly digressed.


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## offthegrid (Jan 21, 2014)

Hi 

I just wanted to thank everyone for their replies, I really do appreciate them.

My initial post was really just to say hello and give you a brief introduction.

We are currently dairy and arable farmers in the UK and so I have a lot of experience of farming in the UK.

Our ideas are to have a smallholding in Portugal approx. 1.5 - 4 acres something along that line, or forest / woodland with an area of land attached that is suitable for growing veg etc just for us.....the main thought here at the moment is that we want enough land around us to give us the privacy we are used to.

We will be requiring a property that is remote, it is what we are used to rather than city / village life.

When we come to Portugal we may come as self employed or we may just come as retired, all decisions to be worked out in due course.

pablo91 
Thank you for your reply, no there is not specific region though our requirements might restrict us to certain regions. As for the size of the property we are thinking of around 1.5 acres ish but if there was a 3 acre farm or a 5 acre woodland we wouldn't say no. Our main intention is to rent a property first ( questions will be forthcoming about this ) then seek out our area / property.

canoeman
Thank you for your reply, it wasn't a question, it was only an introduction. As you can see from above we are fully aware of what it takes to run a large farm, dairy, arable and machinery.

Our intension for buying a remote property with some land is to be private, we are not looking to make a profit from the land though we will never say no to money. 

With us it is more about the quality of life and space.

May I ask canoeman what is it or was it that you do or did for a living?

maidentales
Thank you for your reply, it is really interesting to hear of your arrangement with your 
neighbour re working the land.

When we move to Portugal we are going to rent a property first before we buy, we don't want to rule anything out at the moment apart from villages and cities.

Thank you for the links you provided, I am already looking on those sites, can you recommend any estate agents?

To your later post, thank you for your welcome, yes the tax laws have change dramatically over the recent period, there are many, many ways of dealing with tax in different countries, as per google, amazon, apple, ebay and many more. Have a word with one of their legal departments and you should be fine!


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

It's extremely easy to be remote and private or not remote and private and be close to a large town or village and achieve both without having m2 of land in Portugal, good to see you have the experience but I would still make the point that looking after land in Portugal is not easy and quite honestly don't think that you can truly bank on your UK experience it takes an amazing amount of real hard graft and or machinery to achieve it.

We've owned large acreage of good flat arable land and hillside forest so do have some experience, getting a local farmer to also crop our land proved problematical as most had more than they reguired, even now in this house with a 3000m2 field I can't find a local who'll farm it and have it rotavated twice a year as if I didn't it'd be totally wild in 6 months.

I'd say visit at various times of year get good local information and keep an open mind, it's very easy to think you have to be in the middle of nowhere to achieve your dream but Portugal is so diverse it's not a necessity


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