# why all moving to OZ



## Info Oz

I have been hearing, reading reports of thousand of New Zealanders leaving the country and shifting to OZ.

Is it so bad in NZ, people say job are rare, i have a NZ origin friend, who just moved to OZ saying there is nothing in NZ for work and growth.

I treat NZ s beautiful country with less popluation, why this job scarcity.

why the govt is not doing anything about it, when its so evident that people are moving away from country.


Any idea.


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## Song_Si

from the news today

*Aussie brain-drain myth exposed*
11:15 AM Thursday Feb 2, 2012









The departure rate of New Zealanders to go live in Australia was higher in the 1970s than now, says a new Dept of Labour report. 

*The much-vaunted brain drain to Australia is no worse than it has ever been, and is actually smaller as a proportion of New Zealand's total population than it was 40 years ago, a major study by the Department of Labour has found.
*
That's despite 44,000, or 1 per cent of the country's population, leaving for Australia in the year to June 2011, following a tough year of recessionary conditions and the worst of the Christchurch earthquakes, the report, Permanent and Long Term Migration: The Big Picture, says.

At the end of the 1970's, the departure rate to Australia was equivalent to 1.4 per cent of the then population of around 3 million, compared with around 4.5 million today.

The report also shows more people have been arriving long term in New Zealand than departing since the 1990's, with the loss of New Zealanders to other lands being made up by migrants from elsewhere.

Released this morning, the report concedes New Zealand has been losing about 4000 more people than it gains in the short term this year, but that this is likely to reverse early this year, particularly as the Australian economy slows.

"Departures to Australia are forecast to ease later this year," said the general manager of the department's Labour and Immigration Research Centre, Vasantha Krishnan. "We forecast a return to a net migration gain of about 6000 during mid-late 2012 and early 2013."

As to longer term trans-Tasman migration, the report says "New Zealand's population growth provides context to the relative size of migration flows to and from New Zealand but is often overlooked."

"This paper shows that when population size is considered, trans-Tasman departures relative to New Zealand's population are lower now than they were in the 1970's".

Still, some 495,000 Kiwis are now estimated to be living across the Ditch, around half the 700,000 to 1 million who live outside the country, meaning one in 10 New Zealanders live in Australia.

The report's long term migration flows analysis also shows a 10 year cycle which has become established since the late 1940's, in which net population losses have peaked around the end of each decade, followed by periods of net inflow.

The highest net losses were between 1976 and 1982 and again at the end of the 1980's - both of which were periods of economic stagnation.

"The period from 1990 onwards has been characterised by net gains rather than losses, although there was an end-of-decade net loss between 1999 and 2001," the report says. "Since 2002, net migration has been positive".

Separately, the department's latest migration trends and outlook report, also released today, finds India is now the second largest source of new long term or permanent migrants to New Zealand, thanks to a combination of skill shortages and arrivals by international students for multi-year courses of study.

The trend comes as the government embarks on negotiations for a free trade agreement with India.


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## chellebubbles

From watching a report on the news yesteday i understand this. 

People in Auckland think there are too many people here, and that the government are not growing its City to accomodate the amount of people. 

The amount of people are growing because the size of familes are getting bigger and because of us migrants. People are moving to Auckland because this is where the work is, and if you cant get work theyre moving to Aus. 

I feel Auckland is empty when comparing it with London and even Manchester in the UK, but i can understand peoples concerns as they dont want to end up like London and Manchester. 

To solve the problem the government could work with the largest companies in NZ and offer them incentives to open up around the Country, to keep people here, they will have to do something eventually. Hopefully sooner rather than later, i would hate to think Kiwis have a negative view of us because of this.


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## topcat83

chellebubbles said:


> From watching a report on the news yesteday i understand this.
> 
> People in Auckland think there are too many people here, and that the government are not growing its City to accomodate the amount of people.
> 
> The amount of people are growing because the size of familes are getting bigger and because of us migrants. People are moving to Auckland because this is where the work is, and if you cant get work theyre moving to Aus.
> 
> I feel Auckland is empty when comparing it with London and even Manchester in the UK, but i can understand peoples concerns as they dont want to end up like London and Manchester.
> 
> To solve the problem the government could work with the largest companies in NZ and offer them incentives to open up around the Country, to keep people here, they will have to do something eventually. Hopefully sooner rather than later, i would hate to think Kiwis have a negative view of us because of this.


It reminds me of the UK in the 1980's/90's, when the population was moving from the North to the South. Didn't understant it then and don't understand it now. Surely it makes sense to spread the population around a bit by incentivising people to set up companies elsewhere....


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## carosapien

*Off-to-Oz exodus at 11-year high*

I spotted this today, there does seem to be an exodus at the moment.



> Off-to-Oz exodus at 11-year high
> 
> "New Zealand recorded its biggest-ever net loss of migrants to Australia in 2011, underlining the appeal of life across the Tasman, where wages are higher, jobs more plentiful and living standards are superior.
> 
> A net outflow of 36,900 migrants was recorded last year, according to Statistics New Zealand. The net result was made up of 51,100 departures for Australia and 14,200 arrivals from Australia. Most of the migrants in both directions were New Zealanders.
> 
> The overall net loss of migrants in 2011 was 1,900, the largest since a net 4,400 left in the 12 months ended August 31, 2001. The net loss in 2011 was made up of 84,200 permanent and long-term arrivals and 86,000 departures.
> 
> In the month of December there was a net outflow of 1,000 migrants, compared to a net inflow of 300 in the same month of 2010.
> 
> Departures of kiwis to Australia made up the biggest contribution. There was a net gain of 900 migrants from the UK last month, slowing from a net 1,200 in the same month a year earlier.
> 
> The government has been tracking permanent and long-term migration since April 1921 and reached its highest annual net loss in the 12 months ended July 1979, when the outflow was 43,600."


There must be something about the Australian lifestyle that appeals? Australia is now the world's most popular destination for expats who are putting lifestyle and well being ahead of money. 


> Australia tops for expats
> 
> Australia beat out the United States and Singapore to take top place among expatriates as an ideal residence for quality of life and career prospects, according to an international survey.
> 
> More than 3000 expatriates in over 100 countries rated nations on a range of criteria from accommodations to food, healthcare and the quality of the commute to work, according to HSBC's Expat Explorer survey, now in its fourth year.
> 
> Australia took the honors with 10 percent of respondents choosing the nation known for its sun-drenched beaches and solid economy as their preferred next posting location.
> 
> "The report suggests expats are putting lifestyle and well-being ahead of money and Australia wins hands down on this front," said Graham Heunis, head of retail banking and wealth management for HSBC Bank Australia.
> 
> The United States, which had slightly fewer votes than Australia, came in an extremely close second and was seen as offering the best career opportunities with higher remuneration, the report said.
> 
> Singapore, narrowly edged for third with 9 percent, appeared to combine the best of both worlds, with respondents noting its good quality of life along with prime job opportunities.
> 
> Hong Kong came in fourth, Canada fifth, the United Kingdom sixth and France seventh.
> 
> Respondents said they were attracted to the higher salaries in Hong Kong and the United Kingdom, while Canada's lifestyle won it points.


I'm not sure how New Zealand rates but its interesting to see that Singapore beats the UK and France, it's such a small place.


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## Song_Si

carosapien said:


> .... its interesting to see that Singapore beats the UK and France, it's such a small place.


my 2 baht's worth: I'm very sceptical about such surveys; 

_"More than 3000 expatriates in over 100 countries"_ from a company in _"retail banking and wealth management"_ maybe their surveyed candidates from a rather select/elite little group of expats globally.

so, they surveyed, on average, just about 30 from each country; my observation re Singapore is that, at a guess the people surveyed were there with multinational companies on glam expat packages, without families. 
Quality of life? I don't think it would make my top 100 cities to live, ok for a money-focused contract, but hardly a place to 'live'.
Ditto Hong Kong.

***

Wiki Singapore: approx 700sq km, so about 35 x 20km. 5.1 million people - the second (from 241) most densely populated country in the world (7,315 per sq km); due to scarcity of land, four out of five Singaporeans live in subsidised, high-rise, public housing apartments. Third-lowest fertility rate in the world (220th from 222).


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## Neil M

I've never been there but I've heard Singapore is so hot and humid you need AC running just to sleep. Not sure how much of an exaggeration that may be.

As for the NZ exodus, is there any doubt the earthquake in Chch is an influencing factor?


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## Song_Si

carosapien said:


> There must be something about the Australian lifestyle that appeals?


one point is that it is just so easy for NZers to travel/work there. No visa required. And as time goes on, more and more people have families both sides of the Tasman, eligible for either passport. Not entirely a new thing, I have one Australian-born grandparent, and further down the family tree an Aust b-in-law and 2 of his 4 kids born Australia, 2 in NZ, they can travel between jobs in either country as easy as if it were between Auckland and Christchurch. 
From a work perspective, esp from early 2000s I saw more companies offering transfers between countries, have a friend from Akld currently in Melbourne on a 2yr placement, her NZ role filled by someone from an Australian branch, makes sense as economically/business-wise the countries get closer. I'd prefer to have their dollar to the NZ one recently!


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## carosapien

Song_Si said:


> [/I] from a company in _"retail banking and wealth management"_ maybe their surveyed candidates from a rather select/elite little group of expats globally.


Yes that's probably why they seemed surprised that the country at the top of the list was chosen not because of wealth generation but because it is an "_ideal residence for quality of life and career prospects_" and expats chose it because they put "lifestyle and well-being ahead of money" 

Neil M I've been to Singapore and found it to be a very modern, high tech, safe country. The hot climate wouldn't bother me too much, no more than a cold European winter would. Living there would probably afford a very high standard of living, but I'm not sure that would equate to a good lifestyle / high quality of life. 

Canada also rated highly for lifestyle, which I'd agree with.

I did also see another piece of data today that said outward migration from New Zealand to Australia was at the highest ever. As for exchange of migrants between the two countries it seems that it's Kiwis who are making the majority of the moves, Australians aren't moving to New Zealand in significant numbers


> Tourists flock to NZ, but Kiwis still leaving
> New Zealand recorded its biggest-ever net loss of migrants to Australia in 2011, underlining the appeal of life across the Tasman, where wages are higher, jobs more plentiful and living standards superior.
> 
> A net outflow of 36,900 migrants was recorded last year, according to the report. The result was made up of 51,100 departures for Australia and 14,200 arrivals from Australia.* Most of the migrants in both directions were New Zealanders*.


I'm sure that all the earthquakes have got something to do with the high numbers of people leaving New Zealand, but then again Australia has had a very bad time with hurricanes, fires and floods so you'd think that they'd cancel each other out. There must be something else that is causing so many New Zealanders to leave?


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## Song_Si

This article has a Taranaki focus, but also provides some Statistics New Zealand data on population losses (and gains) in the provinces:


> *2010/2011 financial year*
> *Loss*
> 1: Waikato -1588
> 2: Canterbury -1548
> 3: Bay of Plenty-1340
> 4: Northland -921
> 5: Hawke's Bay -780
> 
> *Gain*
> 1: Auckland 6220


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## anski

Song_Si,

That explains what's happening in Auckland now with the Housing market. I did not realise the extent which I believe will only grow in the future.

Time to leave, I left Australia for the same reason Population went from 12.5 million to 22 million!


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## Song_Si

^ time to move to the South Island - 1,038,000 people (Jun 2011) in 60% of the country's landmass - averages less than 7 per sq km. (Compare UK @ 255 per sq km)

easy for people to get wound-up, obsessed with departures for Oz; it is less than 1% per year; where does anyone say that a country _*needs*_ more population? With over-population in so many parts of the planet, a country with a static population would be the envy of many.


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## topcat83

anski said:


> ....Time to leave....


Auckland, I presume. Can't say I've regretted the move out of the Old Smoke - even if i still get to work there! Sitting at the moment with a Coruba and Coke watching the sun set over the Waikato hills, alpacas and ducks...


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## carosapien

anski said:


> Song_Si,
> 
> That explains what's happening in Auckland now with the Housing market. I did not realise the extent which I believe will only grow in the future.
> 
> Time to leave, I left Australia for the same reason Population went from 12.5 million to 22 million!


Much of the growth was planned for the north and west, I haven't seen much evidence of it yet.

Larger populations aren't necessarily bad things, it's the density that causes problem, look at places like North Shore and Howick for instance. 

As long as there's room to spread out and resources aren't stretched to breaking point what's the problem? At least you get things like decent motorways, theatres, hospitals and efficient public transport system. I know places like Sydney are crowded but its public transport system is very good. Not quite as efficient as Singapore's though.


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## anski

carosapien said:


> Much of the growth was planned for the north and west, I haven't seen much evidence of it yet.
> 
> Larger populations aren't necessarily bad things, it's the density that causes problem, look at places like North Shore and Howick for instance.
> 
> As long as there's room to spread out and resources aren't stretched to breaking point what's the problem? At least you get things like decent motorways, theatres, hospitals and efficient public transport system. I know places like Sydney are crowded but its public transport system is very good. Not quite as efficient as Singapore's though.


You obviously never had the pleasure of commuting daily in peak hour traffic (which now extends over most of the day) along the Pacific Highway or across the Sydney Harbour Bridge. I remember a time long ago when I could drive from Berowra to Sydney airport in under 40 minutes, now try it!
Even with the toll roads, driving around Sydney is problematic . Parking in the city is impossible unless paying exorbitant costs & walking in the city is faster than going by taxi.
Public transport is better & covers a larger area I agree.


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## naoto

anski said:


> You obviously never had the pleasure of commuting daily in peak hour traffic (which now extends over most of the day) along the Pacific Highway or across the Sydney Harbour Bridge. I remember a time long ago when I could drive from Berowra to Sydney airport in under 40 minutes, now try it!
> Even with the toll roads, driving around Sydney is problematic . Parking in the city is impossible unless paying exorbitant costs & walking in the city is faster than going by taxi.
> Public transport is better & covers a larger area I agree.


Yeah public transport is quite good. And you can get almost anywhere using it. They are building a new trainlink in northwest which will spread the city even further. Looking at googlmaps Sydney soon to become this huge behemoth city. I think they should start approving high rises otherwise the rents will continue climbing to infinity.


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## KiwiRoo

Song_Si said:


> ^ time to move to the South Island - parts of the planet, a country with a static population would be the envy of many.


Depends which part of the South Island, Christchurch is a no no after earthquakes.


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## carosapien

It had a magnitude 4 around 10.30 last night, that's 9628 quakes to date. I can't see them ever rebuilding the city centre.

You can get most of the information you need on the earthquakes in the Canterbury region on Canterbury Quake Live


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## carosapien

anski said:


> You obviously never had the pleasure of commuting daily in peak hour traffic (which now extends over most of the day) along the Pacific Highway or across the Sydney Harbour Bridge. I remember a time long ago when I could drive from Berowra to Sydney airport in under 40 minutes, now try it!
> Even with the toll roads, driving around Sydney is problematic .


I suppose that's why it has such a good public transport system now. I used it a few months ago and was very impressed at it. I'd never drive into a large city anywhere during the rush hour.

Commuting into Auckland can be every bit as bad, those motorways are awful. Thank goodness for the fast buses.


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## inhamilton

Kiwi's have ALWAYS moved to Oz. The only reason the move is larger at the moment is that NZ now has a bigger population. Percentage wise, more people moved to Oz in the 70's compared to now.
It's just a fact of life. A lot of people in NZ drift to Oz. Just like Irish drift to England and Canadians drift to the US. Australia is bigger, but it doesn't necessarily make it better.


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## topcat83

Sitting in a motel in Melbourne at the moment - been here a week, and can't say I'm very impressed with the traffic here - it seems much worse than Auckland. 

However, the transport system seems very good in comparison. Auckland really does need to improve it's mass transport infrastructure.


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## naoto

Yay top cat. How is the feel of the city? Views? Architecture? Do tell.....


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## topcat83

naoto said:


> Yay top cat. How is the feel of the city? Views? Architecture? Do tell.....


It kept me busy on my diary entries for hours... Unfortunately we also had this summer's Auckland weather - very unpredictable. I think I'm becoming less and less of a city girl too - it's more than double the size of Auckland and very busy, even at the weekend. I was much happier once we'd hit the Great ocean Road.


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## chellebubbles

traffic here is nothing like manchester or london in the UK, but your public transport does need a kick in the right direction...enjoy Aus...were enjoying NZ


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## topcat83

chellebubbles said:


> traffic here is nothing like manchester or london in the UK, but your public transport does need a kick in the right direction...enjoy Aus...were enjoying NZ


Back now - being stared at through the windows by the alpacas. There's no place like home


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## eastendoflondon

Tough one this migration issue.Horses for courses i think.As much as i'm looking forward to moving to NZ in a few years time when we have saved up some hard earned cash i will miss so much about London.
In only a few months time the Summer Olympics will be a mile away from my front door(Got some precious tickets aswell). 
On top of that we have the rugby world cup coming here next time round plus the best football league in the world.
On top of that the massive choice of music festivals featuring the best bands in the world we have all throughout the summer months.
London can be(at times)the best city in the world and i can't wait for summer to arrive.
However with all that in mind i'd like to try NZ out at least in the future.For now though i'm a happy and very proud Londoner.


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## topcat83

eastendoflondon said:


> Tough one this migration issue.Horses for courses i think.As much as i'm looking forward to moving to NZ in a few years time when we have saved up some hard earned cash i will miss so much about London.
> In only a few months time the Summer Olympics will be a mile away from my front door(Got some precious tickets aswell).
> On top of that we have the rugby world cup coming here next time round plus the best football league in the world.
> On top of that the massive choice of music festivals featuring the best bands in the world we have all throughout the summer months.
> London can be(at times)the best city in the world and i can't wait for summer to arrive.
> However with all that in mind i'd like to try NZ out at least in the future.For now though i'm a happy and very proud Londoner.


Going to the Kaiaua Music Festival on Sunday - I think it might be on a slightly different scale. A couple of local country bands in the local pub


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