# thinking of moving to denia any advice



## sharon&ian (Jan 22, 2015)

Hi this is my 1st post here

We are hoping to move to Denia in August and would appreciate any advice.

I have have been to Denia 4 times in last couple of year and we have fell inlove with the lifestyle.

My husband works on oil rigs so no change to his job. I work for a call centre from home so can live anywhere in the world and keep my job.

I have 2 children and this is the worry as they are 10 and 14. My 10 year old doesn't really want to move but she is really ourgoing and will be fine. My 14 year old is in high school and is a bit quiet but really up for the challenge. Im a bit worried about her schooling and cant justify the private school fees for 2 children so it would be state school.

We are visiting in February and have 5 viewings lined up for longterm let as we will do that 1st and rent out our home until we are sure. I want to experience spain off season but have been in October, june and august in the past.

Iv so many questions, healthcare, backs, schools, moving belongings, dog,.....headache.

I know its not the best time to move and am probably limiting us on villa availability but I want the school move to be as seemless as possible for the children and start a new term in spain in sept.

Any advice would be great

Regards Sharon & Ian

Where do I start


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## amespana (Nov 10, 2009)

Please look at previous posts regarding schooling which will be your most important consideration.Your 14 yr old will definitely need private schooling and probably your 10 yr old as well.


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

sharon&ian said:


> Hi this is my 1st post here
> 
> We are hoping to move to Denia in August and would appreciate any advice.
> 
> ...



Sorry but if you can't justify International school fees, can you justify wrecking your kids education?

Assuming they aren't fluent Spanish speakers, the younger one is borderline for getting by in state school but could possibly just about do it, maybe by repeating a year. The 14yr old doesn't stand a chance. 

Before you worry about looking at houses and the dog, have you checked out your finances. Your husband will be tax resident in Spain and this could hit you tax wise. You need to check whether you would have to be self employed if living in Spain- a costly business.

If you haven't done so, you'll need to check you can meet the requirements for residence- proof of sufficient income and healthcare provision.


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## sharon&ian (Jan 22, 2015)

amespana said:


> Please look at previous posts regarding schooling which will be your most important consideration.Your 14 yr old will definitely need private schooling and probably your 10 yr old as well.


Unfortunately I am not in a lucky position to be able to pay from 800 euro a month for private schooling and I want my children to be taught in a Spanish school to fully immerse in the country.

I have spoken to quite a few English people who have moved to spain and 100% recommend Spanish schools.


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## sharon&ian (Jan 22, 2015)

brocher said:


> Sorry but if you can't justify International school fees, can you justify wrecking your kids education?
> 
> Assuming they aren't fluent Spanish speakers, the younger one is borderline for getting by in state school but could possibly just about do it, maybe by repeating a year. The 14yr old doesn't stand a chance.
> 
> ...



Wowzer I thought this site was going to be for some support??? 

Both of my children are approximately 2 years above their current school years education wise. They both do spanish in school although not fluent yet we would ALL obviously take Spanish lessons before the big move.

I have spoken to quite a lot of familys who have moved from the uk and not 1 of them families have said the education would be a problem. Infact they have all said they would recommend the Spanish schools over private.

We both have saving, as do our children . We have healthcare and are taking this move very seriously hence why we are visiting in February with the children.

I am looking for helpful advice, not a slating for wanting to give my children a better and more varied life so do me a favour and if you cant be positive then reply to someone elses post.


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

sharon&ian said:


> Unfortunately I am not in a lucky position to be able to pay from 800 euro a month for private schooling and I want my children to be taught in a Spanish school to fully immerse in the country.
> 
> I have spoken to quite a few English people who have moved to spain and 100% recommend Spanish schools.


Yes but what .................
Just read what Sharon has posted while I was typing what I have just removed.

Well some of it.
Sharon if you post on a forum asking for advice without giving "all" relevant info then do not be surprised when members tell you things that you do not want to hear, as before you there must have been untold new posters who have said ..................I have a dream ! & it was never MLK.


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## sharon&ian (Jan 22, 2015)

VFR said:


> Yes but what *age* were the children when they moved.
> Come on Sharon you are asking you rascals to go to school and not understanding a word that is being spoken (yes think about that)
> 
> Its private or nothing at their age (plain & simple)


Well im not sure what schools you have heard about but the 2 schools I have contacted offer extra support for English children and have said that the teachers speak English also. 

As previously said both children are studying Spanish in school infact the 14 year old has for 2 years plus we have started learning Spanish and have 8 months before we would be moving.

I don't want the children to attend an English school? we may as well stay in England if we were going to do that.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

As others have mentioned, sending a 14 year old to study a different curriculum in a different language (it'll probably be Valenciano instead of Castiliano as well) is probably the best way of destroying their education, confidence, future, ... God knows what else. Sorry to be dramatic but it really is that important.

You need to at least wait until they have finished their GCSEs and take it from there... but by that time the younger child will be 12 and they'll be at the wrong age to make the move as well...unless you can afford to send her to private school. To be honest, i'd have thought that with both parents working, and one of them on the rigs, you'd be able to afford the 1000€/month or so that it costs to send one child to an international school?


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

sharon&ian said:


> Well im not sure what schools you have heard about but the 2 schools I have contacted offer extra support for English children and have said that the teachers speak English also.
> 
> As previously said both children are studying Spanish in school infact the 14 year old has for 2 years plus we have started learning Spanish and have 8 months before we would be moving.
> 
> I don't want the children to attend an English school? we may as well stay in England if we were going to do that.


No sweat Sharon and I was editing my post as you typed yours.
As far as I know the so called English schools are not English and your children will spend most of the time with many Spanish children who attend thae same place (well thats so here in Xativa)


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

sharon&ian said:


> Well im not sure what schools you have heard about but the 2 schools I have contacted offer extra support for English children and have said that the teachers speak English also.
> 
> As previously said both children are studying Spanish in school infact the 14 year old has for 2 years plus we have started learning Spanish and have 8 months before we would be moving.
> 
> I don't want the children to attend an English school? we may as well stay in England if we were going to do that.


It's not the same. The school will teach in Valenciano rather than the Spanish you've been learning, and you might struggle to get your kids into a decent state school anyway. Even if the schools did teach in Castellano, your kids will be studying science, Spanish history, geography, etc to GCSE level - they simply won't have the required level of Spanish.

On top of that - yoiur kids will need to fit in, make friends, defend themselves - they will be vulnerable at a very difficult age.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

There are ways of giving advice and I winced when I saw Brocher's reply. Came across as very rude.




VFR said:


> Sharon if you post on a forum asking for advice without giving "all" relevant info then do not be surprised when members tell you things that you do not want to hear, as before you there must have been untold new posters who have said ..................I have a dream ! & it was never MLK.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

sharon&ian,

Wanting to use the state schools is understandable for the reasons you state (integration) and it's true that many people speak highly of them. The issue in your case is the ages of your kids. I have seen it said here that under 10 provides enough time for the kids to achieve the necessary level of comprehension in Spanish, and as you might expect, it's a case of the younger the better.

At 14 your child will find him/herself in a classroom where he/she cannot understand anything being said, and 14 is a critical time at school.

For that reason, people will recommend a private option for at least one of the kids.

There is a lady who posts here who has put her kids through state schools and is also a teacher of Spanish. I'm sure she'll be along shortly with advice. And she's polite too.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Horlics said:


> There are ways of giving advice and* I winced when I saw Brocher's reply*. Came across as very rude.



so did I 

however, whilst the the _way it was said _was rather harsh, _what was said _was unfortunately correct



sharon&ian said:


> Hi this is my 1st post here
> 
> We are hoping to move to Denia in August and would appreciate any advice.
> 
> ...


 :welcome: Sharon & Ian

I'm really sorry but you aren't going to like what I'm about to say  

I live just on the other side of Montgó, in Jávea - we moved here 11 years ago - my children were 4 & 7 at the time, and although they had a couple of terms in International school when we first arrived (we had moved about a bit & it seemed fairer at the time) they have been through the Spanish state system - so I know the system well, & part of what I do is give support to English kids who are struggling in the state schools, due to language issues

if your children were younger - under the age of 9 or 10 I'd say 'go for it!' - at that age they stand a chance of learning the language well enough to graduate at age 16 & maybe go on to Bachi & further

any older than that, even with a couple of years of Spanish under their belts, it's iffy - the 10 year old stands a chance - the 14 year old, no matter how bright - pretty much no chance 

you say your children are 2 years ahead educationally? Does that mean your 14 year old has already sat her GCSEs? If that's the case then she will already have qualifications & it won't hurt, education-wise, to move to Spain

the biggest issue in this area is that at least 50% of the education is in Valenciano - & that is a totally different language, & no matter how much a school will tell you that the children will get extra help, that will probably amount to an hour or two a week for a few months - after that they will be left to get on with it, or you will need to find a private tutor for extra help outside school

can you imagine trying to study GCSE biology, physics, geography & history in a language you have never even heard in your life before? 


I understand why you'd want to have your children in the local schools - it's exactly the same reason I put my two in the local school - but if they had been 10 & 14 I would have kept them in International school - or if we couldn't afford it long term, we would now be back in the UK

The International schools are full of kids from all over the world, including local Spanish kids - their parents send them there so that they can become fluent in English 

If you like, I can put you in touch with lots of families in your position with children in both state & International schools - many with one parent who works abroad - we seem to have a huge number here in Jávea & I also have friends in Denia with children the same age as yours


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> so did I
> 
> however, whilst the the _way it was said _was rather harsh, _what was said _was unfortunately correct
> 
> ...


There's not much more to add really.
I had half written a reply, but then had to leave. 
I said the same about Brocher's answer (I didn't agree with the way it was said, but I did agree with what she said)
I even gave the same example about studying Biology (although I said Maths too!) in another language. Whilst it's great that your son is learning Spanish he is very unlikely to get to a sufficiently high level where he'll be able to study academically . Realistic language goals are fundamental to success in another country.
Also, be aware of what some other posters have mentioned ie local languages. Spain does not run on Spanish alone. In Dénia state schools will have classes in Valencian, Spanish and maybe English so children have to function in three languages. 
*That's a life changing opportunity at 5 years old, an extreme challenge at 10 and an obstacle that is put in your way at 14.
*Of course you are the only ones who can make a decision about your family, but if you have been wise enough to ask for advice you should at least take that advice into consideration
Tell us what you decide and how it works out,
All the best.


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

Horlics said:


> There are ways of giving advice and I winced when I saw Brocher's reply. Came across as very rude.


To be honest I winced when I read the original post stating that they couldn't JUSTIFY Private school fees. 

JUSTIFY is very different to CAN'T AFFORD. Had the OP said "We can't afford...... and will my kids be Ok in state school" then the tone of my reply would have been very different.

I also mentioned checking the tax situation for hubby, possible autonomo for herself and residencia requirements. That was met with "we have savings" - which is irrelevant. If these things have been checked out then that's great - if not, then on their own heads be it.


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

brocher said:


> To be honest I winced when I read the original post stating that they couldn't JUSTIFY Private school fees.
> 
> JUSTIFY is very different to CAN'T AFFORD. Had the OP said "We can't afford...... and will my kids be Ok in state school" then the tone of my reply would have been very different.
> 
> I also mentioned checking the tax situation for hubby, possible autonomo for herself and residencia requirements. That was met with "we have savings" - which is irrelevant. If these things have been checked out then that's great - if not, then on their own heads be it.


Yes you are right & that is why I posted what I did.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

I've just winced again.

Anyway, that's my last response to the Angries. 

As predicted a polite person with good comprehensive advice came along and even offered further help.



brocher said:


> To be honest I winced when I read the original post stating that they couldn't JUSTIFY Private school fees.
> 
> JUSTIFY is very different to CAN'T AFFORD. Had the OP said "We can't afford...... and will my kids be Ok in state school" then the tone of my reply would have been very different.
> 
> I also mentioned checking the tax situation for hubby, possible autonomo for herself and residencia requirements. That was met with "we have savings" - which is irrelevant. If these things have been checked out then that's great - if not, then on their own heads be it.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Ok, my story. We moved to spain in 2008 with a son aged 13 and a daughter aged 10. My daughter didnt really want to move, but we thought she'd settle and with bribes of a swimming pool in the garden and horse riding, she reluctantly came with us (at 10, we felt it was more our decision to make than hers !!?)

They both started at an international school. Both missed their friends and family in the UK, but my son loved it, daughter hated it. So we moved her to a spanish school - she really hated that, she was bullied by the British children there for being "posh" (??) and the Spanish for being British! So we moved her to another Spanish school, which she also hated. She refused to learn or speak the language, she wouldnt do the homework (of which there was masses and we struggled to help her - French homework in spanish was frightening lol). We had extra Spanish lessons which ....... yes, she hated lol. She became a loner, the school wanted her to see a councellor, which she refused and in the end she simply stopped going and unbeknown to me, she hung around in a park with drug dealers after I dropped her off at school (A turning point when I found out!!!)!! She refused to swim in the pool, she did like the horse riding. But everything else she just didnt like - the heat, the cold in the winter, the insects, the dust, the beach, the food, the people........ The long hot summer holidays she spent indoors on skype/facebook chatting to her UK friends

So the turning point, we put her and my son into a different international school, which she quite liked, but by now she was 14 and very hormonal/teenager, so nothing was easy. She did well at the school tho and caught up significantly - she even learnt Spanish (by now my son was fluent and had many international friends).


We had to return to the UK in the end, mainly due to my daughter, but also other reasons. Finally my daughter was happy!!!!!

So, thats my experience of moving with two teenage (ish) children. Spanish schools are only good if your child is totally fluent, totally at ease and happy to take on the new experience. Spanish schools are nothing like schools in the UK, the curriculum and the whole process of teaching/exams/end results is quite different. International schools usually follow the English curriculum and therefore is easier on the children - certainly if they've been used following it. But at that age, their friends, language and lifestyles have been formed and breaking that can be hard. Maybe at 10 you can just about get away with it, but much older and you really should be looking at GCSEs and their future skills and not drastically changing them IMO

BTW, dont think that International schools are simply English schools, they're not. they are full of all manner of nationalities, the class sizes are small and the children learn about Spain, Spanish, different cultures and have the opportunity to become international citizens 

Jo xxx


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

It seems to be more common to get a poster requesting advice, then reacting angrily when the advice is not whst they want to hear.If it's realistic, it's criticised as being negative.
All some posters want to hear is that it's all lovely in Spain, you can pick up the lingo quickly, everything's cheap, it's hot all the time, don't bother paying taxes, no one will check on you, it's easy to get jobs in bars etc etc, pack your case and come on over!
I' m nor saying the OP is like this , but there does seem to be an increase in the bad reaction to advice, on many other expat forums too.
Perhaps MRYPG9's famous " Why bother" post should be compulsory reading when a " I'm thinking of moving to......" Comes up!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

extranjero said:


> It seems to be more common to get a poster requesting advice, then reacting angrily when the advice is not whst they want to hear.If it's realistic, it's criticised as being negative.
> All some posters want to hear is that it's all lovely in Spain, you can pick up the lingo quickly, everything's cheap, it's hot all the time, don't bother paying taxes, no one will check on you, it's easy to get jobs in bars etc etc, pack your case and come on over!
> I' m nor saying the OP is like this , but there does seem to be an increase in the bad reaction to advice, on many other expat forums too.
> Perhaps MRYPG9's famous " Why bother" post should be compulsory reading when a " I'm thinking of moving to......" Comes up!


Well, to put a positive spin on things, it is a lovely country. Its never good idea to move there on the strength of holidays, but with some research and an objective viewpoint, then it can be done d it can be wonderful. I loved living there and have never really settled back to UK living - yes, my daughter is happy altho the experience hasnt helped her, she's 17 now. My son has taken it all in has stride and is now 19

But the weather in the summer, the views, the ambiance and the more relaxed feel is wonderful. But there are negatives which have to be looked at realistically. The whole family need to be prepared and positive. Its not easy.

I would recommend some research visits - especially in the winter, look at the schools, both international and state. View some properties, get a feel for the reality

Jo xxx


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## mrdjp73 (Jan 18, 2015)

brocher said:


> To be honest I winced when I read the original post stating that they couldn't JUSTIFY Private school fees.
> 
> JUSTIFY is very different to CAN'T AFFORD. Had the OP said "We can't afford...... and will my kids be Ok in state school" then the tone of my reply would have been very different.
> 
> I also mentioned checking the tax situation for hubby, possible autonomo for herself and residencia requirements. That was met with "we have savings" - which is irrelevant. If these things have been checked out then that's great - if not, then on their own heads be it.


Do you already live in Spain? If so I feel you should be trying offer help to some of us that are trying make a move abroad to another country rather than lording it over us.
You have some very good points, but you are incredibly rude when you put them across. 
I am in the very same situation as although my eldest is 12.
As for the tax issue, I have made numerous calls and emails to companies and HMRC and no one can answer how much tax we would pay or where we would pay it!!!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrdjp73 said:


> Do you already live in Spain? If so I feel you should be trying offer help to some of us that are trying make a move abroad to another country rather than lording it over us.
> You have some very good points, but you are incredibly rude when you put them across.
> I am in the very same situation as although my eldest is 12.


I understand that Brocher came over as very brusque, but she has a very good point that the OP's wording (can't justify) was unfortunate to say the least. I have read many of Brocher's posts before and she unfailing gives good advice, as she does in this thread too, even though it's not put in the most tactful way.
The advice on this thread is given by people with experience and is realistic and truthful. It's there for the taking. It's up to the new members whether they take it not. If you are in the same situation you've got a lot of thinking to do too, haven't you!


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## mrdjp73 (Jan 18, 2015)

extranjero said:


> It seems to be more common to get a poster requesting advice, then reacting angrily when the advice is not whst they want to hear.If it's realistic, it's criticised as being negative.
> All some posters want to hear is that it's all lovely in Spain, you can pick up the lingo quickly, everything's cheap, it's hot all the time, don't bother paying taxes, no one will check on you, it's easy to get jobs in bars etc etc, pack your case and come on over!
> I' m nor saying the OP is like this , but there does seem to be an increase in the bad reaction to advice, on many other expat forums too.
> Perhaps MRYPG9's famous " Why bother" post should be compulsory reading when a " I'm thinking of moving to......" Comes up!


As someone who is looking to move to Spain l take on your views. Believe it or not, we are looking for negative views as well. We all need to know the pit falls but there is a way of putting them across, some people are just down right rude when they give their views which is not constructive.


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## mrdjp73 (Jan 18, 2015)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I understand that Brocher came over as very brusque, but she has a very good point that the OP's wording (can't justify) was unfortunate to say the least. I have read many of Brocher's posts before and she unfailing gives good advice, as she does in this thread too, even though it's not put in the most tactful way.
> The advice on this thread is given by people with experience and is realistic and truthful. It's there for the taking. It's up to the new members whether they take it not. If you are in the same situation you've got a lot of thinking to do too, haven't you!


Yes I have, and we have already spoken. I have no concerns about schooling, my daughter will be in international school and my son in state school, if he doesn't like it, he will be in put into international school as well.
My biggest issue is the Tax system and no one can give me an answer.
A Spanish accountants firm said move, you have a year before you become resident and sort it out then.
Ive been told I will pay my tax in the UK as I earn there.
I phoned HMRC they told me once I moved I have to fill in the form P85 and they then decide.
I'm still waiting to hear back from an English Accounts who deal with Spanish tax to find out their version of events.
We all know their are pits falls and maybe her choice of words were not the best but I dont think the way she was answered was helpful either. There have been other comments on this thread that have basically said the same things but put in a better way.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

extranjero said:


> It seems to be more common to get a poster requesting advice, then reacting angrily when the advice is not whst they want to hear.If it's realistic, it's criticised as being negative.
> All some posters want to hear is that it's all lovely in Spain, you can pick up the lingo quickly, everything's cheap, it's hot all the time, don't bother paying taxes, no one will check on you, it's easy to get jobs in bars etc etc, pack your case and come on over!
> I' m nor saying the OP is like this , but there does seem to be an increase in the bad reaction to advice, on many other expat forums too.
> Perhaps MRYPG9's famous " Why bother" post should be compulsory reading when a " I'm thinking of moving to......" Comes up!


This nothing compared to what we've had in the past!! People have called us negative, miserable, negative, selfish (as if we wanted to "keep" Spain to ourselves), and, negative!!


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Yes they are rude, and no amount of 'it's good advice' matters.

It so happens that the most helpful posts were from xabiachica and jojo and yet I imagine that the news was disappointing to the Op. I think most people want to hear the good and the bad, but regardless nobody likes being lectured, scolded or virtually yelled and sneered at.

mrdjp... did you post a thread about your tax questions? 



mrdjp73 said:


> As someone who is looking to move to Spain l take on your views. Believe it or not, we are looking for negative views as well. We all need to know the pit falls but there is a way of putting them across, some people are just down right rude when they give their views which is not constructive.


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## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

We could all give our long winded accounts of our "own stories" I am sure I have been guilty of that myself!

I don't think Brocher was rude at all! I sat on my hands not to type a very similar response.

There are many things myself and my husband have been unable to justify in our 16 years overseas with our children but paying for their education is not one of them (when there either wasn't an alternative or the alternative was unworkable / unthinkable eg. putting a 14 year old into a Foreign education system where they have a very limited grasp of the language).

When we moved to Spain our kids were 12 & 16. My 18 year old has just received 3 out of 4 University acceptances (expecting a 4th) for the UK this September. So money well spent? Despite literally having nowt else to show for my 46 years on this here rock?! Absobloominlutely!!

& my hubby has been Offshore during our time here, he isn't anymore because of the tax implications. He works in a another country permanently now where he is a tax resident / has habitual residence! & I have a friend who's husband is on rotation onshore where he has habitual residence (not Spain) for tax purposes.


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## mrdjp73 (Jan 18, 2015)

Horlics said:


> Yes they are rude, and no amount of 'it's good advice' matters.
> 
> It so happens that the most helpful posts were from xabiachica and jojo and yet I imagine that the news was disappointing to the Op. I think most people want to hear the good and the bad, but regardless nobody likes being lectured, scolded or virtually yelled and sneered at.
> 
> mrdjp... did you post a thread about your tax questions?


Yes I did, I think you commented on it. Still trying yo find out information. To be honest, most accountants are busy just now, so maybe February is a better time to be asking questions.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrdjp73 said:


> Yes I have, and we have already spoken. I have no concerns about schooling, my daughter will be in international school and my son in state school, if he doesn't like it, he will be in put into international school as well.
> My biggest issue is the Tax system and no one can give me an answer.


I hope some of the information you have gleaned has been helpful,
Tax issues are usually quite complex and individual and need expertise so I wouldn't expect you to find answers, I mean definitive answers to those on a forum. 
I suppose you've seen this...
Legislation: Ministerio de Hacienda y Administraciones Públicas
I always advise people to go to the main tax offices here to get an answer


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## mrdjp73 (Jan 18, 2015)

angil said:


> We could all give our long winded accounts of our "own stories" I am sure I have been guilty of that myself!
> 
> I don't think Brocher was rude at all! I sat on my hands not to type a very similar response.
> 
> ...


I think we all agree her choice of wording could have been better.
I hopefully can get some advice from yourself on the tax then if thats ok?


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## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

mrdjp73 said:


> I think we all agree her choice of wording could have been better.
> I hopefully can get some advice from yourself on the tax then if thats ok?


Of course, I am always here to help. 

It is a complicated mess that has seen us living apart as a family! & has seen my friend live here as a single mum (I met her on this forum!). & another family I met here too is considering the husband remain as a UK resident when the rest of them move to Spain.

I know I will get shot for this but PM me and I will give you my email address if you like.


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## mrdjp73 (Jan 18, 2015)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I hope some of the information you have gleaned has been helpful,
> Tax issues are usually quite complex and individual and need expertise so I wouldn't expect you to find answers, I mean definitive answers to those on a forum.
> I suppose you've seen this...
> Legislation: Ministerio de Hacienda y Administraciones Públicas
> I always advise people to go to the main tax offices here to get an answer


Thanks very much, I'm offshore just now but will have a look at that when I get home as the internet is not brilliant here.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I would merely point out that holidaying in a foreign country is nothing like actually residing there. 
I know. I visited the Czech Republic regularly for forty years and lived there for three years. I was so happy to leave.
The 'lifestyle' will be very little different from your life in the UK. More sun, true. But same old chores. If you speak no Spanish, you will find yourself limited, even in an area with many British immigrants.
I wouldn't comment about schools as I moved here having retired, although I spent my life working in education in the UK. But I would ask whether you have considered a future for your fourteen year old...He will find it very difficult indeed to adjust to the Spanish state system. You really have to consider also future employment for him. Youth unemployment in Spain is over 60% in some areas.
But if you have made up your mind that you want to live in Spain, then that is what you will do. People usually do whatever they want to. But let's be clear: living in Spain is very pleasant, given adequate resources and knowledge. 'Dream', however it most definitely is not.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrdjp73 said:


> Thanks very much, I'm offshore just now but will have a look at that when I get home as the internet is not brilliant here.


Off topic
What's it like working off shore???


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

mrdjp73 said:


> Yes I have, and we have already spoken. I have no concerns about schooling, my daughter will be in international school and my son in state school, if he doesn't like it, he will be in put into international school as well.
> My biggest issue is the Tax system and no one can give me an answer.
> * A Spanish accountants firm said move, you have a year before you become resident and sort it out then.
> Ive been told I will pay my tax in the UK as I earn there.
> ...


Tax info- all that you've mentioned there is correct. I could tell you how some of it fits together but I might not word it to your liking.......


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## mrdjp73 (Jan 18, 2015)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Off topic
> What's it like working off shore???


I enjoy it, its not for everyone though. I used to be a foreman in the building trade but got fed up with stress. 
I see more of kids now that I ever did before.


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## mrdjp73 (Jan 18, 2015)

brocher said:


> Tax info- all that you've mentioned there is correct. I could tell you how some of it fits together but I might not word it to your liking.......


Touche. Any advice is welcome please, although you may need to lnow more details. Not jyst as simple as working offshore


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> Well, to put a positive spin on things, it is a lovely country. Its never good idea to move there on the strength of holidays, but with some research and an objective viewpoint, then it can be done d it can be wonderful. I loved living there and have never really settled back to UK living - yes, my daughter is happy altho the experience hasnt helped her, she's 17 now. My son has taken it all in has stride and is now 19
> 
> But the weather in the summer, the views, the ambiance and the more relaxed feel is wonderful. But there are negatives which have to be looked at realistically. The whole family need to be prepared and positive. Its not easy.
> 
> ...


The only reasons I'm relaxed in Spain are that I'm no longer working and I have enough dosh to lead my chosen lifestyle. Plus I have no children to worry about. 

Jo, I'm surprised you haven't given your tried and trusty 'loo cleaning' advice


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

mrdjp73 said:


> Yes I have, and we have already spoken. I have no concerns about schooling, my daughter will be in international school and my son in state school, if he doesn't like it, he will be in put into international school as well.
> My biggest issue is the Tax system and no one can give me an answer.
> A Spanish accountants firm said move, you have a year before you become resident and sort it out then.
> Ive been told I will pay my tax in the UK as I earn there.
> ...


Pardon me if I'm wrong, but I think the advice you've been given is incorrect.
You've not got a year before you become resident- 90 days then you're resident, 183 days, tax resident .
Not sure about paying tax in the UK


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

this family - the OP - will almost certainly have more than enough income for a good life in Spain

yes there are tax considerations - & expert advice is needed for that, because the most they can get here is personal experiences & any translations of official documents or guidelines that some of us are able to provide......... but individual situations obviously vary

but for me, as a mum, the main consideration was the children


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## mrdjp73 (Jan 18, 2015)

extranjero said:


> Pardon me if I'm wrong, but I think the advice you've been given is incorrect.
> You've not got a year before you become resident- 90 days then you're resident, 183 days, tax resident .
> Not sure about paying tax in the UK


I think your correct, its conflicting information that makes it very challenging. Luckily I enjoy a challenge :-D


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## mrdjp73 (Jan 18, 2015)

xabiachica said:


> this family - the OP - will almost certainly have more than enough income for a good life in Spain
> 
> yes there are tax considerations - & expert advice is needed for that, because the most they can get here is personal experiences & any translations of official documents or guidelines that some of us are able to provide......... but individual situations obviously vary
> 
> but for me, as a mum, the main consideration was the children


I'm confident my daughter will settle in an international school, she would be happy to move now.I would love to send my kids to private school in Scotland but its just too expensive, movibg to Soain gives us the opportunity to do it at a fraction of the cost. My son might be a bit more of an issue if he does not enjoy state school then we will have to get him into intertional school as well. 
My wife and I have been talking about this for years, my daughter is in year 8 so it is now or never.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrdjp73 said:


> I'm confident my daughter will settle in an international school, she would be happy to move now.I would love to send my kids to private school in Scotland but its just too expensive, movibg to Soain gives us the opportunity to do it at a fraction of the cost. My son might be a bit more of an issue if he does not enjoy state school then we will have to get him into intertional school as well.
> My wife and I have been talking about this for years, my daughter is in year 8 so it is now or never.


yes, International school is absolutely the best (only, imo) way to go for a child of that age

& you're right, it costs much less here - but be aware that you're not really paying for a 'private school education' (with the inference that it's better than a state education) in many/most International schools in Spain. 

what you're paying for is an education in English, with the UK curriculum - & some schools sadly have standards & facilities no better than the most average state school in the UK  

and in some cases worse


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> yes, International school is absolutely the best (only, imo) way to go for a child of that age
> 
> & you're right, it costs much less here - but be aware that you're not really paying for a 'private school education' (with the inference that it's better than a state education) in many/most International schools in Spain.
> 
> ...


A very valid and important point


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## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> yes, International school is absolutely the best (only, imo) way to go for a child of that age
> 
> & you're right, it costs much less here - but be aware that you're not really paying for a 'private school education' (with the inference that it's better than a state education) in many/most International schools in Spain.
> 
> ...


We would kill for standards and facilities that were as good as an average state school at my kids current school!! 

My advice, as always, to anyone planning on sending their children to 'International' Schools in Spain is visit them (as many as possible) and only believe what you can see with your own 2 eyes! The person showing you around is no more than a sales person, in our experience, & will tell you what you want to hear to get the sale.

But, as previously stated, it is down to lack of an alternative if you are choosing Spain with older children.

My A level daughter was lucky with her tutors and her choice of subjects, plus she has worked her butt off! But had she been sporty, artistic, musical, or into science she would have been let down here by the sheer lack of facilities.


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

mrdjp73 said:


> Touche. Any advice is welcome please, although you may need to lnow more details. Not jyst as simple as working offshore


We're way off topic but- 

Fill in P85 BEFORE you leave UK and yes, HMRC will tell you what to do from their point of view - they won't tell you what you have to do in Spain.

If working in the UK, you will continue to pay tax in the UK.

If you arrive in Spain in let's say July 15, you wouldn't become Spanish Tax resident until the following tax year- which runs from Jan - Dec in Spain. So you would become tax resident in Spain in Jan 16. ( Tax resident is different to the residencia you also have to apply for in Spain within 90days of arrival- proving sufficient income and healthcare) 

You would then have to start filling in a Spanish tax return, but for the year 2016, you don't have to fill in that form until June 17. That's why the Spanish accountant says you have a year.

UK/ Spain have a double tax treaty. You must declare all worldwide income on your Spanish return, and if Spanish tax allowance and rates dictate that you are due more/ less tax than you have already paid, you will have to pay the balance/ get a refund.

That's the bare bones of the pieces of info you gave- of course, there is a bit more to it but it helps when you can start to get your head round all the bits of info you get! 

PS. Angil has mentioned a few times how difficult and expensive the tax situation in Spain has been for them, but they seem to have found some way round some of it, although she hasn't put details on the forum - so it might be worth PMing her. 

Try and get professional advice from an accountant familiar with both Spainsh and UK tax- though it can be difficult to find someone.


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## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

No secret and I am sure I have spelled this out in previous posts.

It is do with habitual residency. The_ presumption _is that my husband is a habitual resident (& tax resident of Spain) because we (his family) live here. It is up to us to prove otherwise.

My children and myself are habitually resident in Spain.

My husband is habitually resident elsewhere (the country in which he is work and paying tax). This country also has a double taxation agreement with Spain.

He has a tax consultant in the UK to keep things straight with the HMRC.

His income working offshore (so could not claim habitual residency there) has been declared in Spain, the country in which he was habitually resident at that time.

You've got to pay tax somewhere.


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## mrdjp73 (Jan 18, 2015)

brocher said:


> We're way off topic but-
> 
> Fill in P85 BEFORE you leave UK and yes, HMRC will tell you what to do from their point of view - they won't tell you what you have to do in Spain.
> 
> ...


Thanks very much for the advice, we are going to be spending the summer there so we can find out more when we are there.


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## mrdjp73 (Jan 18, 2015)

xabiachica said:


> yes, International school is absolutely the best (only, imo) way to go for a child of that age
> 
> & you're right, it costs much less here - but be aware that you're not really paying for a 'private school education' (with the inference that it's better than a state education) in many/most International schools in Spain.
> 
> ...


Thanks very much, I had just assumed that they would all be good so we will check them out before the kids attend.


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## Expat den (Jan 24, 2015)

Sharon & Ian

We have recently moved to La Font d'En Carros where my 11 year old son attends the local state school, where he has been since the beginning of December last. He has settled in very well, learning both valenciano and spanish. The school has two English speaking teachers as well as two helpers (children from his class, who speak a little English). His language skills are progressing very well and the school could not be more helpful. He is not bullied, far from it, everyone in the school wants to be his friend and come to his house to play.

I have no qualms about him attending state school here, it's the quickest way from him to learn the language and make friends from the town.

Of course, the child's education is paramount and my personal opinion is that for him to attend the local school will help him integrate into spanish life quicker than him attending an International school.

As as I say, this is my personal opinion and I know that many here may well disagree!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Expat den said:


> Sharon & Ian
> 
> We have recently moved to La Font d'En Carros where my 11 year old son attends the local state school, where he has been since the beginning of December last. He has settled in very well, learning both valenciano and spanish. The school has two English speaking teachers as well as two helpers (children from his class, who speak a little English). His language skills are progressing very well and the school could not be more helpful. He is not bullied, far from it, everyone in the school wants to be his friend and come to his house to play.
> 
> ...


It's great that your child is settling in so well. But in many schools no one speaks English (even the English teacher sadly), and I'm sure you'll agree that there's a world of difference between an 11 year old with several years to catch up, and a 14 year old essentially studying gcse level in a language they don't know


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## Expat den (Jan 24, 2015)

xabiachica said:


> It's great that your child is settling in so well. But in many schools no one speaks English (even the English teacher sadly), and I'm sure you'll agree that there's a world of difference between an 11 year old with several years to catch up, and a 14 year old essentially studying gcse level in a language they don't know


Absolutely, that would be a different ball game entirely and we would have had to look at other options, such as an international school or for us to return to the UK for his education.


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## mrdjp73 (Jan 18, 2015)

Expat den said:


> Absolutely, that would be a different ball game entirely and we would have had to look at other options, such as an international school or for us to return to the UK for his education.


My daughter is 12, 13 this year, but I feel new high school and trying to learn Spanish would be too much for her. My son however is only 7 and I think if we find a state school like you have, he will be fine


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Expat den said:


> Absolutely, that would be a different ball game entirely and we would have had to look at other options, such as an international school or for us to return to the UK for his education.


So you don't actually disagree with the posts advocating private education for a 14 year old...


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## Expat den (Jan 24, 2015)

mrdjp73 said:


> My daughter is 12, 13 this year, but I feel new high school and trying to learn Spanish would be too much for her. My son however is only 7 and I think if we find a state school like you have, he will be fine


I believe your son wil be fine in a state school as long as they give him the same support as my son gets in his school.

Children the same age as your son tend to pickup languages very quickly as I have found out with my own son. He was 6 when we moved to China in 2010 and after only one year he was fluent in Chinese, this is because he was placed in an environment where the language is spoken all the time. The same goes for Spanish (Catalan), I have no doubt he will soon add this to his belt.

By the way, my intials are DJP, the same as your user name.


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## Expat den (Jan 24, 2015)

Pesky Wesky said:


> So you don't actually disagree with the posts advocating private education for a 14 year old...


No, I don't disagree, but it all boils down to the child. If he or she has the confidence to attend a state school and learn the language within a short period of time without putting extra pressure on that child, then why not send them to state school. I worked in teaching in China and there were quite a few cases where young children took their own lives because of the pressure from both their school life and parents.

No child should be given pressure like that, if you are sure they wouldn't cope, then don't send them to a state school here, whatever their age.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Expat den said:


> No, I don't disagree, but it all boils down to the child. If he or she has the confidence to attend a state school and learn the language within a short period of time without putting extra pressure on that child, then why not send them to state school. I worked in teaching in China and there were quite a few cases where young children took their own lives because of the pressure from both their school life and parents.
> 
> No child should be given pressure like that, if you are sure they wouldn't cope, then don't send them to a state school here, whatever their age.


No one can learn a language quickly enough to start passing exams from day one though. And that's the system here. They have to pass pretty much everything in their last four years of school in order to get the graduado certificate at age 16.
They don't have four years to learn the language and then take exams at the end of those four years .


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## Expat den (Jan 24, 2015)

xabiachica said:


> No one can learn a language quickly enough to start passing exams from day one though. And that's the system here. They have to pass pretty much everything in their last four years of school in order to get the graduado certificate at age 16.
> They don't have four years to learn the language and then take exams at the end of those four years .


Exactly, that's why I don't disagree with sending them to international schools. It is essential for them to enter further education and get their grades to have any hope of finding a job in today's difficult climate. If the only way for the child to achieve that is by attending an International school, then so be it.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Expat den said:


> No, I don't disagree, but it all boils down to the child. If he or she has the confidence to attend a state school and learn the language within a short period of time without putting extra pressure on that child, then why not send them to state school. I worked in teaching in China and there were quite a few cases where young children took their own lives because of the pressure from both their school life and parents.
> 
> No child should be given pressure like that, if you are sure they wouldn't cope, then don't send them to a state school here, whatever their age.


As a language teacher myself and a daughter who has since the age of 6 months been in state (starting in the municipal escuela infantil and now in uni) I know about and am all in favour of total immersion as learning method *if it is feasible*. As xabiachica points out, older children have to start functioning in the language from day one which means learning about Maths, Economics, Philosophy (required subject) and the rest in Spanish. As I expect you already know, there are exams at the end of every term usually and usually in all the subjects and if they don't pass the year they repeat. Non Spanish speakers may get a limited help, but in my daughter's school there really was no one who spoke English except some of the English teachers, just as there was no one who spoke Croation to help the Croation kids and no one who spoke Arabic to help the Moroccans, (and no one assumed that there would be either!). So with the best will in the world, and with all the confidence that you want it really is very unlikely that a "normal" 14 year old, or even a very bright one would flourish in an "ordinary" Spanish state school, as learning the language and studying to the academic level needed would inevitably put too much pressure on the child


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrdjp73 said:


> My daughter is 12, 13 this year, but I feel new high school and trying to learn Spanish would be too much for her. My son however is only 7 and I think if we find a state school like you have, he will be fine


With the right support from you, and presuming he has no learning difficulties, your son will probably have the wonderful experience of learning a new language and being introduced to a slightly different culture, which in today's world can only be seen as a positive
Your daughter will also have lots of opportunities to learn Spanish and if she's happy and confident in herself and her new school she'll also feel good about speaking a new language
There is a lot of information about schools on the forum, the similarities and differences, a lot written by xabiachica and myself (1). You can look in the sticky FAQ's especially post three I think it is, and search for education, primary schools, schools, etc in the forum.


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## meinsurfer (Mar 20, 2015)

Sharon and Ian
Seems like a lot of advice from people who have some experience. Maybe you need to see the positive. You are forewarned and thus forearmed. Experience is a great thing. If you are determined to go then you will just adapt as a family . However being alone whilst partner is away may be asking a lot of yourself. Also you may find you are paying for interpreters. Spain is not like Uk. Good luck


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