# Vaya con Dios Amigos



## PauloPievese

So, to the Miami Consulate. No debt. About $420K immediately liquid. Another ~$120K when the house sells. Total then well over half a million dollars liquid to be disbursed over the 25 years (outside) that I may live. Over $1800/mo SSA. Probably looking at $45K/yr. Result: no visa, too poor. Not really surprised; it was always an edge case.

So, it's been real. Paulo ex-Pievese signing off.

:flypig:


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## GeordieBorn

Amazing, so you are off to Spain? Much cheaper, but I think also a bigger risk. Check it out well, whatever you do - all the very best!


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## NickZ

I think most of the posts have stated Spain requires €30K a year in income per person. Italy should be similar.

Portugal likely also but there at least you are tax free (in part) for ten years after retirement.


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## Italia-Mx

NickZ said:


> I think most of the posts have stated Spain requires €30K a year in income per person. Italy should be similar.


Italy is the best country in Europe and doesn't have to be similar. In addition to the many EU citizens from other member states who have the right to live in Italy, it also has hundreds of thousands of Italians in the diaspora qualified for Italian passports who don't need visas and who bring good retirement income with them. Why should Italy accommodate foreigners when it can welcome home it's Italian citizens from all over the world? Question for Paolo Pievese. Do you happen to be retired US Military?


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## PauloPievese

*Buongiorno*



GeordieBorn said:


> Amazing, so you are off to Spain? Much cheaper, but I think also a bigger risk. Check it out well, whatever you do - all the very best!


Thanks. I'm afraid my "subject" was misleading. Italy, its culture, history, people, physical environment, has always had a particular fascination for me. The alternatives? Less so. 

As to my "rejection", I would bet that a clerk simply looked at it and said "monthly income: $1800" rather than read the charts, tables, and text that demonstrated that $45K/yr was a minimum that could be expected. I thought the idea that if I'm going to spend a million dollars before I die, it would be to Italy's advantage that I do so there, would have carried some weight, but no.

Just as an fyi to anyone going to the Consulate. Don't expect to share a Cointreau with the Ambassador. This was very much of a bureaucratic, take a number, shove the papers through the slot in the window, kind of experience. I wore a suit and tie; swimming trunks and flip flops would have made no difference.

:wave:


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## PauloPievese

Italia-Mx said:


> Do you happen to be retired US Military?


I am a veteran but not a retired one.


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## Italia-Mx

PauloPievese said:


> So, to the Miami Consulate. No debt. About $420K immediately liquid. Another ~$120K when the house sells. Total then well over half a million dollars liquid to be disbursed over the 25 years (outside) that I may live. Over $1800/mo SSA. Probably looking at $45K/yr. Result: no visa, too poor. Not really surprised; it was always an edge case.
> 
> So, it's been real. Paulo ex-Pievese signing off.
> 
> :flypig:


They did not consider your 420K liquid because that can be spent up in one day. They also did not consider the 120 liquid from house sale because that amount is not guaranteed and can also be spent up in one day. They did consider your 1,800/mo SSA but that amounts to only 21,600/year and that is not enough. If you had applied for a visa 20 years ago, your guaranteed income of 21,600 from a reliable government source likely would have been accepted -- but not today as you would need more income from a reliable government source in order to get a visa.


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## PauloPievese

Italia-Mx said:


> They did not consider your 420K liquid because that can be spent up in one day. They also did not consider the 120 liquid from house sale because that amount is not guaranteed and can also be spent up in one day. They did consider your 1,800/mo SSA but that amounts to only 21,600/year and that is not enough. If you had applied for a visa 20 years ago, your guaranteed income of 21,600 from a reliable government source likely would have been accepted -- but not today as you would need more income from a reliable government source in order to get a visa.


Despite your deep insight into the bureaucratic mind I rather suspect that it was stupidity rather than the rationale you outline. Were my assets to terminate in a few more zeroes I suspect that it would not have been a problem even though that also could be spent in one day. I do note that should I become indigent I could be deported in one day as well. 

:flypig:


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## Italia-Mx

PauloPievese said:


> Just as an fyi to anyone going to the Consulate. Don't expect to share a Cointreau with the Ambassador. This was very much of a bureaucratic, take a number, shove the papers through the slot in the window, kind of experience. I wore a suit and tie; swimming trunks and flip flops would have made no difference.
> 
> :wave:


So I take it you have never had business at an American Embassy? We did, last July in Rome to obtain a Notary signature. Quite the same procedure. Take a number, pass the papers through a window slot. No pleasantries, just direct and to the point. Business as usual.


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## Italia-Mx

PauloPievese said:


> Despite your deep insight into the bureaucratic mind I rather suspect that it was stupidity rather than the rationale you outline. Were my assets to terminate in a few more zeroes I suspect that it would not have been a problem even though that also could be spent in one day. I do note that should I become indigent I could be deported in one day as well.
> 
> :flypig:


Actually it's called discretion and they can use it wherever and whenever necessary.


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## PauloPievese

Italia-Mx said:


> Actually it's called discretion and they can use it wherever and whenever necessary.


Your expressions of sympathy, your personal warmth, are deeply appreciated.


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## Italia-Mx

PauloPievese said:


> Your expressions of sympathy, your personal warmth, are deeply appreciated.


This made me laugh. The consulate staff might have appreciated it too had you thought to express your feelings at the time.


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## KenzoXIV

PauloPievese said:


> Your expressions of sympathy, your personal warmth, are deeply appreciated.


Havent been on for a while and I am sorry to see this is the first thing I see...

Are there any routes of appeal open to you?

Kenzo


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## PauloPievese

*Route of Appeal*



KenzoXIV said:


> Are there any routes of appeal open to you?
> 
> Kenzo


Per the document I received from the Consulate I have 90 days to appeal ... using a lawyer ... in Rome.

I think I'm done although another forum suggested that as my brokerage and bank documents weren't "official" but rather printed from their websites the Consulate ignored them. 

If on the other hand anyone has a suggestion for an affordable emigration attorney in Roma I would be interested in hearing about it.

:flypig:


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## PauloPievese

*The Horse Which is Deceased, Beaten*

:deadhorse:
As a resource for any other non-EU lower middle class types that might be considering relocating for retirement I offer this web page titled "Plan your own Brexit: The 10 easiest countries for securing EU residency"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/the-easiest-countries-to-gain-eu-residency/
In summary, 
#1 was Austria where a quick scan of their requirements notes no particular wealth but does list requirements related related to work or job creation. 
#2 Belgium, get a job. 
#3 Portugal where "the minimum you can get away with is €500,000 ...; buy a house for that price and you’re in. Alternatively, transfer €1 million ... into a Portuguese bank account or create 10 jobs in the country." 

And these are the _easiest_.
:brick:
Lower middle class retirement isn't a shot on the boards.

:flypig:


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## Bevdeforges

I'm a bit wary of those articles about the "easiest" places to get residency. Sure, for those who want to buy their way in and have the dosh to do so.

But here in France, for example, you can usually manage a "visitor" visa if you are retired with a pension that is at least at the minimum wage level (something under 1500€ a month). A visitor visa/residence permit is renewable annually until you hit the 5 year mark, at which point you can usually qualify for a multi-year resident permit and potentially could apply for French nationality.

It really does seem that the Brits are panicking about this Brexit stuff. The Americans, Canadians and Australians have been dealing with visas and residence permits for ages and it's not nearly as difficult as the Brits would have you believe.
Cheers,
Bev


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## PauloPievese

*En France?*



Bevdeforges said:


> here in France ... you can usually manage a "visitor" visa if you are retired with a pension that is at least at the minimum wage level (something under 1500€ a month)


Ah, the "retired with a pension" thing again. Among the things the plutocrats have disappeared in the U.S. is the pension. Almost nobody has one other than the state pension, Social Security. That pays out at about the level you suggest; my savings about doubles that. 

Does Italy have a "visitor visa"? How would I go about getting one for France? As you may recall I did an intense amount of spadework about pension taxation for Italy. Does France have about the same deal to your knowledge?

Unfortunately I don't want to live in France particularly; I want to live in Italy. Once I am a EU resident can I reside anywhere in the EU?

:flypig:


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## GeordieBorn

Go to France near the Italian border for 5 years, where you can drop in to Italy for a visit every now and then (90 days?). Then as you say you can go anywhere in the EU after that.


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## NickZ

All the Schengen countries are going to be fairly similar.

I'm surprised that France is at only €1500 from what I remember it used to be at the higher end of the range. 

Virtually all countries have double taxation treaties. Some countries treat you better than others. But the basics are similar around the world.


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## Bevdeforges

The French version of "adequate financial means" starts at the minimum wage level (about 1500€ anmonth) but it's not a hard and fast threshold and may depend on what your plans are. Thing is that in the US-France tax treaty, IRAs, 401Ks and other deferred taxation plans for retirement are specifically considered to be "government pensions" that count toward your "adequate financial means" test. I'm not aware of another European tax treaty that specifically names the various retirement savings plans like that (though I think you could make a case for treating them in that way). 

The other variation in the tax treaties is the assignment of taxing rights on "pensions" - In France, it's the country paying the pension that gets the right to tax it. In Italy, I know Italy taxes US Social Security if it's being paid to an Italian citizen in Italy. (Not sure about how it works with an expat.) Germany also claims exclusive rights to tax US SS paid to German residents.
Cheers,
Bev


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