# Is Johannesburg a safe Place?



## prabhath (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi ,

I am being offered a job in one of the reputed IT firms at Johannesburg. The role i am going in is interesting and have always looked for such a position. But, the only thing that is troubling me rather confusing me is of the rumours on safety overthere. I personally dont know anyone out there ...so can someone please post me the current situation out there and how are Indians in particular treated there. Also it would be really kind of you people if someone can post me the monthly expenditure that an individual incurs for his livelihood there. 

Awaiting a response from you all kindly souls.


----------



## Halo (May 8, 2008)

If you compare it to Baghdad, sure.

http://www.thetimes.co.za/PrintEdition/News/Article.aspx?id=959330


----------



## NafisShaikh (Mar 6, 2009)

*hi*



prabhath said:


> Hi ,
> 
> I am being offered a job in one of the reputed IT firms at Johannesburg. The role i am going in is interesting and have always looked for such a position. But, the only thing that is troubling me rather confusing me is of the rumours on safety overthere. I personally dont know anyone out there ...so can someone please post me the current situation out there and how are Indians in particular treated there. Also it would be really kind of you people if someone can post me the monthly expenditure that an individual incurs for his livelihood there.
> 
> Awaiting a response from you all kindly souls.


hi prabhath....im Nafis from india.....firstly IT sector of SA is great...its going in speedway...n lots of opportunity of IT Jobs there...its all rumours about safety in SA by people of there...violent,theft,murder,robbery is everywhere now....infact in our india..people of india are very helpful there...everyone wil help you,advice you in anyway...car,petrol,meal,telecome these things are very cheap....
and one thing is that i am also moving in Joburg,SA next month...April...
goog luck..


----------



## TheEndGame (Mar 25, 2008)

NafisShaikh said:


> hi prabhath....im Nafis from india.....firstly IT sector of SA is great...its going in speedway...n lots of opportunity of IT Jobs there...its all rumours about safety in SA by people of there...violent,theft,murder,robbery is everywhere now....infact in our india..people of india are very helpful there...everyone wil help you,advice you in anyway...car,petrol,meal,telecome these things are very cheap....
> and one thing is that i am also moving in Joburg,SA next month...April...
> goog luck..


hmm so u say There are lots of req in IT in SA... i think so i kept applying for job for a year and did not get any.. thoiught got call for so many jobs... but there first question was do you have work permit.

So if you know any nice website... through which u got job there.. please let me know...

Prabhat abt ur query, It depends which area in JHB u gonna stay... Prefer complexes which have electric fence and 24 hour guard service. that is much safer than not having them...

i stayed in sandton..so can tell you wat i used to spend there 2 years back... though things mighthave change a bit by now....

1BHK flat you can get in 4-5K rands...

I had one in MorningSide village, sandton... though price went up later.

if you renting car depends how much u end up paying. renting car from rental company costs alot, Like you maye end up paying6-7K rand per month for a nice car. but if u rent it from some individual, you can get it for quite cheap. i rented a car from a indian guy , who had few cars in patnership with abalc guy.. And i got opel in just 4K.

Grocery depends... How many people you are. If you buy things from fordsburg.. you get all indian stuff there and then u can cook athome.. that comes quite cheap.

Eating out isnot that expensive though.. but in a good indian restaurant it comes around 100-150 rands.. if you in a group it comes down more per person.

Security is a issue there. But i guess it's more abt learning where u r supposed to go and where not.

In my 2 year stay in SA i never saw anything happening, though so many of my friends got mugged. just becasue there were over confident and went to place abt which they did not know anything.

Dont go to CBD or SOWETO unless uknow thet place very well or have someone who knows everything around.
keep ur car locked while driving. 

I m sure u goona luv SA, it's so beautiful...


----------



## Martinw (Jan 2, 2009)

NafisShaikh said:


> hi prabhath....im Nafis from india.....firstly IT sector of SA is great...its going in speedway...n lots of opportunity of IT Jobs there...its all rumours about safety in SA by people of there...violent,theft,murder,robbery is everywhere now....infact in our india..people of india are very helpful there...everyone wil help you,advice you in anyway...car,petrol,meal,telecome these things are very cheap....
> and one thing is that i am also moving in Joburg,SA next month...April...
> goog luck..


So I guess more than a million people leaving SA due to VIOLENT CRIME was just a rumour. I wonder who would know more about South Arica. People that lived ther for 25+ years or a couple of you guys being there for a year or so. Maybe some of us just have HIGHER STANDARDS in life that we arent prepared to put up with FILTH and VIOLENT CRIME, and want to enjoy our lives and family in peace. Guess coming from countries that also has violence some people dont mind anymore. Not me thank you. I sleep in peace every night and I am loving it.


----------



## TheEndGame (Mar 25, 2008)

Martinw said:


> So I guess more than a million people leaving SA due to VIOLENT CRIME was just a rumour. I wonder who would know more about South Arica. People that lived ther for 25+ years or a couple of you guys being there for a year or so. Maybe some of us just have HIGHER STANDARDS in life that we arent prepared to put up with FILTH and VIOLENT CRIME, and want to enjoy our lives and family in peace. Guess coming from countries that also has violence some people dont mind anymore. Not me thank you. I sleep in peace every night and I am loving it.


martin, very few places are left in this earth which are crime free....

Africa has voilence, so has US. Even Subcontinet is in danger because of extremist.

Just because there are people out there who just looking for pray, one can not stop living. 

No one is safe anywhere in this world. sad but true


----------



## Moskovitter (Mar 24, 2009)

I ve been several times, and still alive


----------



## Americano (Mar 3, 2009)

Global context. Many skilled people have left SA in the past ten years and I dare say it's close to a million and probably mostly due to crime and other 'push' factors like AA. But, during the same period, some 730 000 mostly younger New Zealanders have permanently (not 'gap year kids, either) left their country, without large-scale (violent) crime,and off a much smaller 'wealth base'. That's life in a global economy. Some countries are source countries and others are destination countries, other like SA (and the UK and NZ for that matter) are both. The US, Canada and Australia are more destination countries. Some 20 000 Brits migrate to SA every year. I also sleep peacefully every night (and not without the whole security gig), and love it, right here in suburban Johannesburg. Filth? My parts of Joburg, where I live and work and play, are spotless. Granted, my street did have a pothole, and it took nearly a week before it was fixed. But life can be stressful like that at times.


----------



## Martinw (Jan 2, 2009)

Like I said. Some of probably have higher standards not being happy to live in SA in its current condition. I also suppose that people happy to live there should be able to be free to do so. As for sleeping peacefull in JHB without security I can only say this. You are either one very lucky person after whom someone is looking or ........well lets not go there. I am not stupid and lived in SA virtually all my life. Do not try and con people into believing that SA is safe and you do not live in fear. If you go to the right webpages, and not just the ones everyone wants you to believe, you will see the amount of violent crime going on. I read an email from an American lady saying how Caucasion European people in South Africa deserved to be violated and murdered for what "out forefathers supposedly did" Not a very pleasant thought from one of your fellow country members.

If some of you choose to live life like that there is probably nothing anyone can do. The only question I normally have to the US and UK citizens is this. Seeing that none of you ever give up your US and UK citizenship and are the ones praising South Africa( my bosses were POMS so I know) I am just wondering. When the s..........really, and I mean REALLY hits the fan in South Africa, how quickly do you guys jump on the next available plane heading to Heathrow or Atlanta or LAX? or How quickly your governments come to recue from that "Terrible Beastly" place. And how many of the South Africans that would like to escape, but cant, are stuck to fend for themselves. Then we will really see how much you love South Africa. When that day comes I will be thankfull to be on the other side of the Inidan Ocean. And anyone that thinks or want to believe that that day will never happen. Well lets just say for all your and our friends sake you are correct. Because if you are wrong well, we would have to do a lot of praying.


----------



## Americano (Mar 3, 2009)

Not lucky, really. Simply strategic. I've lived in SA for nearly 20 years and moved into a gated community (in fact, quite similar to my brother's home in Boca Raton, Florida, but without the built-in-one-day architectural theme). Ours are 1930s and 40s-era homes, jazzed up. There are around 800 homes, and there have been probably 5 or 6 burglaries in 11 years (when the community was gated)- all of them 'inside jobs'. No exterior burglar guards are allowed (and we don't have them, as do neither most of our neighbours) and no walls - lakes, parks, streams and 100-year-old trees. I hop onto the freeway (currently being widened to 10 lanes) and am in the centre of Sandton in 15 to 20 minutes. The centre of Sandton is booming and spotless. Hassle-free living. Sorry, mate, but I don't live in fear and, quite simply, that's how it is. Aware, yes (much like I was in New York), but 'fearful', no. And that's not to say there isn't violent crime - there certainly is, and we're all very aware of it. SA's violent crime rate is six times higher than the US (although Joburg's violent crime rate is marginally lower than Washington, DC, where I lived for many years without any hassles). As for the American lady's email... You're correct, her thoughts and comments aren't pleasant, but we share a passport (along with 300-million others) and seemingly little else. Marilyn Monore was also American, but that doesn't mean I'll die of an overdose at 36... As for the passports... Well, it's not unusual, worldwide, for people to keep their birth passports. Maybe your former boss kept his UK passport because, umm, well, perhaps his parents, siblings and old school friends live in the UK and he wants to be able to visit them without any hassles? Maybe the UK passport 'travels' better than the SA one? The expat scene around the world is full of multiple-passport holders (e.g. an old uninversity friend has Colombian, US and EU passports; I also have multiple passports) - welcome to the new-generation world of Wallpaper and Monocle living! Single passports are so last millennium, that 1980s Contiki Tours kind of vibe.


----------



## Martinw (Jan 2, 2009)

My last post on this thread. 
I am sure that if JHB and SA was such a wonderfull safe place like you descibe it, a lot more people would be out thre trying to tell us all how wonderfull and safe it is. I am also just wondering why everything you read about JHB has got to do with warnings of dont this, watch out for that.
I also obviously missed all the media about people in Australia, US, UK etc being tortured, killed and murdered because they are from European decent and the cities( not just one tiny suburb or gated community) being used as rubbish dumps and crap all ove the place. 

But hey if you enjoy South Africa, good on you. I am very pleased with my choice to provide my family with a safe, good future not having to worry about violence. You should now only convince the rest of the country that the fear of being affected by violent crime is all in their minds and tell everyone that have been tortured, raped and killed for being caucasion, that it never realy happened and is not continuing everyday. If you can do that then I will believe anything you say.


----------



## NafisShaikh (Mar 6, 2009)

Martinw said:


> So I guess more than a million people leaving SA due to VIOLENT CRIME was just a rumour. I wonder who would know more about South Arica. People that lived ther for 25+ years or a couple of you guys being there for a year or so. Maybe some of us just have HIGHER STANDARDS in life that we arent prepared to put up with FILTH and VIOLENT CRIME, and want to enjoy our lives and family in peace. Guess coming from countries that also has violence some people dont mind anymore. Not me thank you. I sleep in peace every night and I am loving it.


Martin you are misguiding to people.....keep positive thinking for everything.......as Anu said everywhere now violent,crime is so why not in SA.......it is so wat we can do....people of there still living there and enjoy their lives....

ANu as u said that you had been in SA for 2 YEars around....so must know how to go back there.....and how you went there before....tell me......then i will tell you...

thanks...


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Americano, I would guess from your description that you live in Thornhill in Modderfontein,next to the A&CI factory in the estate that was originally built for workers at AECI?
If so, your perimeter and entrance gates as well as roving security is controlled by AE & CI's Security division whose General Manager is a lady called Marie Gravett.
She is probably the most clued up person regarding security there is and runs a very tight ship.
Because AE&CI is a National Keypoint,the access and surroundings are very carefully monitored by probably the most up to date electronic surveillance there is.

When you leave Thornhill and head down Modderfontein Road towards the Highway and Edenvale hospital, there have been numerous Hi-jackings and murders at those traffic lights (robots) if you go into Edenvale itself, the Pharmacist at the at the Pharmacy in Main street was murdered during an armed robbery the week before last.

If you happened to turn down Terrace road, the third rd down, a 70 year old couple were tied up and beaten and my 16 year old neice spotted them rying to break into her house, they knew they had been spotted and continued to try and break in, she phoned her father who was caught up in a traffic Jam at the Marlboro offramp.

If you decide to go out past the golf club, those traffic lights have also seen a bit of action and turning towards Kempton Park, they often put stones on the road there, if succesful they then hive off down towards
Thembisa.
Tony Williams was the Financial Director at AE&CI, they moved out to Bryanston, their Daughter was shot during a armed robbery last year, they are now back in the UK.

I like Thornhill, I bought one of the little Workers houses there for ZAR11,000 when they first started the renovation.

It is nice, it is secure because everyone of the security Guards there is armed and knows how to use it.
there have been attempts, the criminals came second.

Secondly, you dont have exernal burglar bars you have trellidors on the inside.

The rest of Jhbg/Sandton/Midrand etc is unfortunately not under the same level of expertise and control.

Are you saying that Thornhill reflects the Norm as to gated communities in SA and Gauteng especially?


----------



## Americano (Mar 3, 2009)

Hey, Daxk! As I said, I was strategic in my choice of lifestyle, as I was in New York in the 80s. Must say, you're quite good, impressed! The only point of difference: no Trellidors. Neighbours in our street are (also) American, some Anglo-Zims, Germans, Brits, Italians and Chinese. None, as far as I know, have Trellidors. Elderly couple next door have zilch, their windows open, American-style (nada), which I must say, took some getting used to. But there you have it - and certainly don't live in fear. The only point I often make is that one needs the same 'urban eyes' in suburban Joburg as used in city centres of the US. And, having always lived in urban environments, I don't find it an issue here. I don't interact with the Edenvale side, as much as I do with the northern suburbs. Thanks for pointing out various local crimes. We do, believe or not, have radio, TV and print news media, although I appreciate the effort it took in compiling a 'scorecard'. That said, I've never felt anything sinister at any robots, or along the routes you mention, any more (or less) than anywhere else in Gauteng. But I'm street-smart and this is, after all, (in SA terms) a relatively crowded metro area of 8-million people. You get 'die-hard' Jo'burgers (pun as you take it) like me, and you get other types who find Nirvana in places like Omaha, Nebraska which my neighbour always laughs he's 'escaped' from. There's a place in the world for everyone, dear Daxk! Yours isn't Jo'burg, which I completely understand. But mine very much is, which I trust you'd also understand?


----------



## Martinw (Jan 2, 2009)

Americano said:


> Hey, Daxk! As I said, I was strategic in my choice of lifestyle, as I was in New York in the 80s. Must say, you're quite good, impressed! The only point of difference: no Trellidors. Neighbours in our street are (also) American, some Anglo-Zims, Germans, Brits, Italians and Chinese. None, as far as I know, have Trellidors. Elderly couple next door have zilch, their windows open, American-style (nada), which I must say, took some getting used to. But there you have it - and certainly don't live in fear. The only point I often make is that one needs the same 'urban eyes' in suburban Joburg as used in city centres of the US. And, having always lived in urban environments, I don't find it an issue here. I don't interact with the Edenvale side, as much as I do with the northern suburbs. Thanks for pointing out various local crimes. We do, believe or not, have radio, TV and print news media, although I appreciate the effort it took in compiling a 'scorecard'. That said, I've never felt anything sinister at any robots, or along the routes you mention, any more (or less) than anywhere else in Gauteng. But I'm street-smart and this is, after all, (in SA terms) a relatively crowded metro area of 8-million people. You get 'die-hard' Jo'burgers (pun as you take it) like me, and you get other types who find Nirvana in places like Omaha, Nebraska which my neighbour always laughs he's 'escaped' from. There's a place in the world for everyone, dear Daxk! Yours isn't Jo'burg, which I completely understand. But mine very much is, which I trust you'd also understand?


As I then suspect Daxk hit the nail on the head. I am just wondering how none of these things apply or are witnessed/seen by you. You are iether very special, good, invisible, superman or maybe you just dont actually live there. Who knows. Just weird that so many peoploe get affected by crime, but yet nothing ever happens to you. Wow, you have some guardian angel looking after you.


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Dear Americano, its not that I'm good or that I need to impress you.
I lived in Jhbg for 44 years. Its not a scorecard I compiled, if I did that it would be far higher,only that which I personally know.
and I happen to know your surroundings very well.

I know Thornhill, I know Edenvale, I have Family there and Skype is a wonderful thing.
I lived in Jburg for most of my adult life, I'll see your 20 years and raise you another 24.
Sofar you appear to have been lucky, and yes, Joburg is no longer for me,
but then these young people have come on here to ask about crime, and you, who live in probably the most secure Complex in Jhbg, say naaaah its safe, I walk everywhere, will they all be moving into the 800 houses in Thornhill?
or do you wish to answer my question, is Thornhill indicative of of the levels of security you get in other upmarket estates? 

There are three types of people in gauteng,
Those who have been exposed to violent crime,
Those who have'nt yet been exposed to Violent crime,
and the criminals.


----------



## TheEndGame (Mar 25, 2008)

NafisShaikh said:


> ANu as u said that you had been in SA for 2 YEars around....so must know how to go back there.....and how you went there before....tell me......then i will tell you...
> thanks...


Oh well i was worlking With TCS and was deputated in Joburg , Was working with one of biggest Bank there, and once my projetc got over ihad to come back. though i was so much in luv with SA that i wanted to stay there for ever.

I tried for jobs. Infact my client offered job, but due to some VISA processing issues things kept delaying and finally the manger who was were keen to take me, left company.

Got call from so many people, but they all were not intrested in helping for visa.
So after so many efforts i m still here.

So now tell me, how you can help me ?

Regards
A


----------



## NafisShaikh (Mar 6, 2009)

Anu said:


> Oh well i was worlking With TCS and was deputated in Joburg , Was working with one of biggest Bank there, and once my projetc got over ihad to come back. though i was so much in luv with SA that i wanted to stay there for ever.
> 
> I tried for jobs. Infact my client offered job, but due to some VISA processing issues things kept delaying and finally the manger who was were keen to take me, left company.
> 
> ...


OK....anu agreed....BUt Visa of SA is so much tuffer than UK n US..You cant go there directly....You must have stayed there anyhow whatever the visa issues was there......
Now you contact any Visa Agent whom you know...and get your Visiting visa for 3 months...and book your air ticket.......sure no matter will be...and lots of jobs there in anyfield...if you are a Professional so you must not have any problem in getting good job there.....see www.careerjunction.co.za....www.ioljobs.co.za for jobs....

Best luck....
Nafis


----------



## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

I am amazed at how all the "experts" on how "safe" SA is, are foreigners who have recently moved there or are contemplating moving there. The fact that so many South Africans have left because it is unsafe and so many more would leave if they were in a position to do so, bears no merit!!!

It is an undeniable fact that South Africa is now one of the most dangerous places in the entire world in which to live. Anybody who disputes that statement has not done their homework. Period.


----------



## TheEndGame (Mar 25, 2008)

NafisShaikh said:


> OK....anu agreed....BUt Visa of SA is so much tuffer than UK n US..You cant go there directly....You must have stayed there anyhow whatever the visa issues was there......
> Now you contact any Visa Agent whom you know...and get your Visiting visa for 3 months...and book your air ticket.......sure no matter will be...and lots of jobs there in anyfield...if you are a Professional so you must not have any problem in getting good job there.....see www.careerjunction.co.za....www.ioljobs.co.za for jobs....
> 
> Best luck....
> Nafis


hmmm it doent work that way dear, First thing even if u reach there on Visitor visa... U can not be given job unless u have WorkPermit, And that u can only get ,if ur company proofs that they dont have skill available in Local people. that is so much of pain for a company to hire someone un known. And second thing is it ill legal to look for a job when u there on Visitors Visa.

Anyway market is down now a days... So i m looking for futher study option. Gonna to Executive MBA and if something really good comes across, i'll think of moving.

By the way i have seen on different news sources that SA is having shortage of Skilled people in IT. but still they dont allow people to come and work there...

thx for websites. i already have my resume there. 

Cheers
A


----------



## NafisShaikh (Mar 6, 2009)

Anu said:


> hmmm it doent work that way dear, First thing even if u reach there on Visitor visa... U can not be given job unless u have WorkPermit, And that u can only get ,if ur company proofs that they dont have skill available in Local people. that is so much of pain for a company to hire someone un known. And second thing is it ill legal to look for a job when u there on Visitors Visa.
> 
> Anyway market is down now a days... So i m looking for futher study option. Gonna to Executive MBA and if something really good comes across, i'll think of moving.
> 
> ...


ok....Good Luck...go ahead dear...

Nafis


----------



## Americano (Mar 3, 2009)

Daxk, there are lots of Thornhills in metro Joburg (and elsewhere in the world). There are hundreds, probably thousands, of gated communities in Gauteng and I'm not really in a position to compare security levels but would assume they're pretty much of a muchness. I AM saying one can move into a luxury apartment block in Melrose Arch, or the centre of Sandton, and walk around at night as they're clean, very well-managed areas. Many people are on this forum as they ARE moving here, with or without any input, through job transfers etc and I'd rather have them in a Thornhill or Melrose Arch (etc) than on some sidestreet in Randburg (and not just for security reasons, either, ha ha). I completely disagree with your 3 types of people in GP, by the way, but I don't think we'll ever agree here... Over and out, and lekker naweek!


----------



## yfbarnes (Mar 27, 2009)

Ummm, I cannot hardly vow Jo'berg as a safe place, having moved here for 16 years. That's why I stay closely to Cape Town. Anyway, however safe a city may be, one still has to be cautious.


----------



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Americano said:


> Daxk, there are lots of Thornhills in metro Joburg (and elsewhere in the world). There are hundreds, probably thousands, of gated communities in Gauteng and I'm not really in a position to compare security levels but would assume they're pretty much of a muchness. I AM saying one can move into a luxury apartment block in Melrose Arch, or the centre of Sandton, and walk around at night as they're clean, very well-managed areas. Many people are on this forum as they ARE moving here, with or without any input, through job transfers etc and I'd rather have them in a Thornhill or Melrose Arch (etc) than on some sidestreet in Randburg (and not just for security reasons, either, ha ha). I completely disagree with your 3 types of people in GP, by the way, but I don't think we'll ever agree here... Over and out, and lekker naweek!


Americano, For various reasons I am/was in a position to compare security levels and threats in gated Communities.
Your assumption that they are all the same is incorrect 

Thornhill differs from the Thousand other gated communities in the following respects.
The Security organisation is part of AE& CI, and is therefore non-profit so within parameters, its not the cheapest equipment and stretch the staff and equipment as there has to be in a Commercial Armed Response guarding Company.

The Security Staff are firstly highly trained, well paid in comparison to Commercial Staff, Security Cleared iro Criminal records, are well managed and motivated.
Their benefits for themselves and their families exceed any other Company inc the SAPS.
as opposed to a Gate Guard who earns ZAR1500/month and is expected to work 12 hour shifts.
The Poor working stiffs are always open to bribes.

Entrance to your complex is difficult,unlike other complexes, no Builder or plumber or AMC Cookware salesman can just wander through the gate.
All people entering or leaving are counted in and counted out.
And there s total accountability.

For this you pay.
or someone does.
Whats the average 3 bedroom Miners house in there worth now?
2 mill? 5 mill?
bit better than a Transvaal Tuscan in Fourways, 60 sq metres for 1.2M I'd say.

Yes, you would rather have them in a Melrose Arch or a Thornhill, but they are transients, how much is rent in Thornhill now?
Compared to the back streets of Randburg?
How well do SA Salaries compare to Overseas?
Lower as far as I know.
But back to your perfect life, it is nice in Thornhill, a walk around the little lake was always great, and lunch at the Golf Club, and the Classic car events held by the Pistonringclub were allways fun.
ever walk outside? maybe on AE&CI lands down to the Jukskei?
Gilloolies Farm? Sunset on the koppie was always stunning with a bottle of wine or two and some friends?
The Wilds?
Delta Park?

I can understand your not agreeing with the three classifications.
You are still in the awaiting to experience group.
If you do get promoted, however, I doubt that you would have the moral fibre to come back on and say "ouch" I'm out of here.


----------

