# Visa Waiver Programe - it's purpose ?



## edge (Oct 13, 2008)

I am a UK citizen with a house in the States - California.

I visit the States under the Visa Waiver Program - I have however noticed that Immigration seem to think that Visa Waiver Program was not set up for a person like me visiting his property in the States.

My work is in the UK, though I can access it through the web, I am UK tax resident, I have property in the UK and have a house there. 

I have sufficient funds to maintain myself in the US without working here - my primary income coming from properties I rent out in the UK and other investments.

So far, they have let me in, but I am rather suspicious that there will come a point when they will not. 

How do I persuade them that I do not pose a problem, that I do not intend to emigrate, that I will not, do not wish and have no need to find employment in the States, even though I do spend about 5 months a year here ?

Any suggestions ?


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## Tiffani (Dec 4, 2007)

eventually, coming in and out as often as you do, and spending five months a year in the States is bound to raise some eyebrows.

You're not technically doing anything illegal, but USCBP considers you guilty until proven innocent (welcome to America  ). 

apart from applying for a B visa, which others can advise about better than I can, I guess my strongest suggestion would simply be to carry as much information documenting your life in the UK as possible as evidence that you don't intend to immigrate to the US. I wouldn't offer anything they don't ask for, but be sure you have it when they do ask for it.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

The visa waiver program is set up to accommodate short-term tourists and business people who clearly have no need or desire to remain in the US after their visit. As a property owner in the US you clearly fall outside that category.

Ultimately, you're probably going to want to have a B category visa just to avoid any difficulties. The trick is that if your "5 months a year" should grow to something more like 183 days a year you'd become subject to US income taxes on your worldwide income (subject, of course, to treaty terms between the US and UK). It can get messy fast, so making sure that you aren't going to overstay your welcome is actually in your best interests.
Cheers,
Bev


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## edge (Oct 13, 2008)

*Evidence of UK Residency*



Tiffani said:


> eventually, coming in and out as often as you do, and spending five months a year in the States is bound to raise some eyebrows.
> 
> You're not technically doing anything illegal, but USCBP considers you guilty until proven innocent (welcome to America  ).
> 
> apart from applying for a B visa, which others can advise about better than I can, I guess my strongest suggestion would simply be to carry as much information documenting your life in the UK as possible as evidence that you don't intend to immigrate to the US. I wouldn't offer anything they don't ask for, but be sure you have it when they do ask for it.



Thank for yours.

I suppose the best evidence are UK bank statements and card, evidence of property in the UK, photographs of family in the UK and some evidence of appointments in the UK, and this I gather from this site, to take place shortly after one plans to return, though, of course, I do not know how one can prove such. Of course a return ticket.

I will also look at a 'B' visa, though, I understand that these endure for up to 6 months and I have no intention of staying in the States for that length for any one run, 3 months at most, and none to stay more than 5 in any one year.

Any advice on the 'B' visa would nonetheless be useful.


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## edge (Oct 13, 2008)

*How does one qualift for a B visa*



Bevdeforges said:


> The visa waiver program is set up to accommodate short-term tourists and business people who clearly have no need or desire to remain in the US after their visit. As a property owner in the US you clearly fall outside that category.
> 
> Ultimately, you're probably going to want to have a B category visa just to avoid any difficulties. The trick is that if your "5 months a year" should grow to something more like 183 days a year you'd become subject to US income taxes on your worldwide income (subject, of course, to treaty terms between the US and UK). It can get messy fast, so making sure that you aren't going to overstay your welcome is actually in your best interests.
> Cheers,
> Bev


Thank you for your clear explanation.

The property in the States serves two purposes - first, as an investment, the monies to buy were transferred here last November, when Sterling, was at a historical high and American properties were falling, the property itself was purchased in March, at which time I judged them to be near their bottom. I was wrong but the strong pound made it worthwhile and more than counters any fall in the market since; second, to act as a base whilst I am in the States. 

I am aware of the tax rules and that I should become liable for American tax on my UK income, if I were to stay more than 50 % of the year, is a strong argument not to be. I also need to be in the UK for at least 6 months in order to be physically present for my business. I also have many contacts and, to be frank, would not wish live anywhere other than the UK in the long term. I adore the British countryside and as a country born I would find it difficult to be permanently separated from it. 

I do understand the American suspicions, they are quite reasonable, though in my case quite unjustified. How does one get a B visa and what does one need to have/prove in order to get one ? Your advice would be appreciated.

Edge


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## Fatbrit (May 8, 2008)

A "B" application can be a step backwards. You don't sound old enough to be a "genuine snowbird" in U.S. eyes.

As others have pointed out and you yourself seem to understand, you have no right of entry. Sensible preparation and a prayer might be your only solution.


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## edge (Oct 13, 2008)

Fatbrit said:


> A "B" application can be a step backwards. You don't sound old enough to be a "genuine snowbird" in U.S. eyes.
> 
> As others have pointed out and you yourself seem to understand, you have no right of entry. Sensible preparation and a prayer might be your only solution.


Thank you.

Then prayer it is !


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Isn't the "trick" about the VWP the fact that you're supposed to leave the country for at least as long as you stayed (or is it 90 days?) before you come back. If your 5 months is spaced appropriately, you may not have any problems at all. But if you want to stay for 5 consecutive months (for example) you'll need a B visa.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Fatbrit (May 8, 2008)

Bevdeforges said:


> Isn't the "trick" about the VWP the fact that you're supposed to leave the country for at least as long as you stayed (or is it 90 days?) before you come back. If your 5 months is spaced appropriately, you may not have any problems at all. But if you want to stay for 5 consecutive months (for example) you'll need a B visa.
> Cheers,
> Bev


The "stay out longer than you stay in" is a rule of thumb. It's not written down anywhere. It's undoubtedly a determining factor with CBP, though.

And so we get onto the problem of applying for a B visa. Here the trick to understanding is to realize there are two agencies of the federal government working at odds with one another -- as they are prone to do!

CBP is part of the almighty DHS and they are the people who actually have the call on whether to let you in or not if you're neither a USC or permanent resident. They'll often tell you that you need a B visa when they think you've been overusing the VWP.

The problem is that the visa is issued by someone who works for the DOS, a slightly less worthy agency in these days of the neocon. They'll say that there's no reason to give you a B visa since you can use a VWP to enter. And in refusing the visa, your immigration record will be marked forever, making it probable that you'll have a trip to secondary on every visit.

Rock and a hard place, I'm afraid.


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## edge (Oct 13, 2008)

I begin to understand America !

I was told, or at least I thought I was told, that one could use the waiver as often as one wished and as long as the entry officer allowed but that it was limited to 90 consecutive days or shorter, if the entry officer chose. To this end I know people who have entered the states for 90 day blocks with only a week or so between.

The problem, again was told, is US tax, for which I would become liable, and on all income irrespective of country of source, if I were to stay more than that 162 days in any 12 month period. Once one become liable it is a nightmare to de-register, even if one is no longer visiting the States. This from someone who used to work in LA and now has returned to the UK.

I was in the States in March, April of this year and out until the beginning of this month, October, intend to remain until the 3rd of January, when I will return to Europe. I am however due back here, in the States in mid February, about 6 weeks later, and planned to remain until the beginning opf May, before leaving for 6 - 7 months.

The fact is that the winter in the UK is not so great, whereas the summer here, I find too hot. I have therefore organized my work so. In fact, it suits my work. A lucky position to be in.

Is there likely to be a problem with the above, other than the no appeal if not allowed in. 

Edge


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## Fatbrit (May 8, 2008)

edge said:


> I begin to understand America !
> 
> I was told, or at least I thought I was told, that one could use the waiver as often as one wished and as long as the entry officer allowed but that it was limited to 90 consecutive days or shorter, if the entry officer chose. To this end I know people who have entered the states for 90 day blocks with only a week or so between.
> 
> ...


The tax is a separate issue -- but one to watch nevertheless!

On the immigration you have pluses and minuses. The plus is you've built up a history of not overstaying, the negative is that you've built up a history!

You will have a problem eventually. Nobody is able to tell you when it will happen...but I'm sure it will happen eventually with such a pattern. You'll eventually get pulled to bits in secondary and told they don't want to see you again for a long while. Taking a DSM manual will allow you the satisfaction of diagnosing the individual psychoses of the uniformed drones, but there will be no access to higher powers. Under a landmark ruling in the fifth circuit a while back, someone actually got as far as securing the right to sue them in civil court if beaten up, but there's no knowing whether you'll have this right in other circuits.

There is no straight way out of this except becoming a dual citizen. But the tax from the top is pulled in here, you'll probably need to invest 0.5M USD in an iffy project that most investors would normally avoid, and last but perhaps not least, you'll have to spend more time here than not here in the first 5 or so years. I have read of strange solutions whereby folks choose to run a small profit enterprise with minimal management required to secure an E2 so they can "snow bird" here. This would require a lot of planning.


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## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

You have to seperate your issues.
Tax - get a good CPA.
House - nobody is interested in you having bought real estate when it was cheap. Potentially the opposite.
VWP - it is a gamble. You have to weigh your options. The secondary interview will happen. Only one question - when. Be prepared for it.


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## edge (Oct 13, 2008)

Fatbrit said:


> The tax is a separate issue -- but one to watch nevertheless!
> 
> On the immigration you have pluses and minuses. The plus is you've built up a history of not overstaying, the negative is that you've built up a history!
> 
> ...


I dont think I can become adual citizen and I'm not sure it would be to the good. I have, in any case, no intention of living permenantly in the States. My final place of rest will be the UK, and that, wherever I travel in the meantime. The US is the place I visit, the UK, the place I return.

I do know others who have spent years travelling between the States and the UK and they have told me that it is difficult to get anything but a waiver. They have also told me to get ready for an interview. In fact, a few years back, I ws called aside and interviewed, they wee interested on how I intended to support myself and once satisfied let me through. The following visit ws not a proble but as you say it could and will probably happen again and perhaps that time they will not be so understanding. 

There are many unpredicatables in life - the US gate is obviously one of them.


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## edge (Oct 13, 2008)

twostep said:


> You have to seperate your issues.
> Tax - get a good CPA.
> House - nobody is interested in you having bought real estate when it was cheap. Potentially the opposite.
> VWP - it is a gamble. You have to weigh your options. The secondary interview will happen. Only one question - when. Be prepared for it.


Thank you for yours.

Tax is not a problem - I have reliable advice and am told that it would only become asn issue if I wee to spend more than one half of the year in the States.

The house issue is not a problem either. It is not un-common for Europeans, and in particular the English, to buy property in the States. As you say it is irrelevent, though one officer did congratulate me, when I visited in March, but then I suspect his had more to do with the contrast between the English and American wheather and not to be taken as a guide.

The second interview did happen, a fews years ago, though they turned out only to be interested in how I intended to support myself and once satisfied let me through. Nothing since but as yu say, it will happen.


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## Fatbrit (May 8, 2008)

edge said:


> I dont think I can become adual citizen and I'm not sure it would be to the good. I have, in any case, no intention of living permenantly in the States. My final place of rest will be the UK, and that, wherever I travel in the meantime. The US is the place I visit, the UK, the place I return.
> 
> I do know others who have spent years travelling between the States and the UK and they have told me that it is difficult to get anything but a waiver. They have also told me to get ready for an interview. In fact, a few years back, I ws called aside and interviewed, they wee interested on how I intended to support myself and once satisfied let me through. The following visit ws not a proble but as you say it could and will probably happen again and perhaps that time they will not be so understanding.
> 
> There are many unpredicatables in life - the US gate is obviously one of them.


There's nothing legally preventing you from becoming a dual citizen. Personally....that's up to you!

On the interview front, I'd prepare the following:
* documentation of sufficient funds
* documentation showing that the funds are not derived from your labor whilst in the US
* documentation showing that your residency is in the UK

I'd also keep a calandar to ensure the rule of thumb. Note that it appears not to be a calandar year but rather 12 months back from the date of your entry. Make sure you don't overstep the more often in than out.


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## edge (Oct 13, 2008)

Fatbrit said:


> There's nothing legally preventing you from becoming a dual citizen. Personally....that's up to you!
> 
> On the interview front, I'd prepare the following:
> * documentation of sufficient funds
> ...


Thank you.

The three points I think I have covered, or, at least the first two, the first, I would have thought a bank statement, this I bring with me when I fly, the second, again ot too difficult since my income is from UK investments and in particular UK property, a IR self-assesment statement, should be sufficent, and these I have on record, the third, I do not carry, other than statements addressed to my home address. I imagine, a Council Tax Statements, the Self Assesment Fors as well as copu utility bills would help. 

Is there anything else that yu could recommend. I know that the presumption on entry, is, and sensibly so, that you are a potential immigrant but in my case, I am not and since my home and business are in the UK, thre should be sufficent paper about to prove the point. 

Having said all that ! I will look into dual citizenship but am not sure it will suit. I am also told that it is difficult to get - otherwise, surely all, who wish to be in the States would apply, rather than make a run for the boarder. All things however should be considered.

Thank you again


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## Fatbrit (May 8, 2008)

edge said:


> Thank you.
> 
> The three points I think I have covered, or, at least the first two, the first, I would have thought a bank statement, this I bring with me when I fly, the second, again ot too difficult since my income is from UK investments and in particular UK property, a IR self-assesment statement, should be sufficent, and these I have on record, the third, I do not carry, other than statements addressed to my home address. I imagine, a Council Tax Statements, the Self Assesment Fors as well as copu utility bills would help.
> 
> ...


You sound as well covered as you can be. The other thing is to make sure you don't carry stuff that suggests you live here or are intending to live here. A wedding dress is a dead give away, as is bringing everything bar the kitchen sink. But other stuff such as US drivers license or library card seem to get their salivation rate up.

On the citizenship thing, the reason most don't is the 0.5M USD down. If you've got the dosh, budget 9 months from application to arriving with a green card, 5 years with a green card where you need to live here more than away, them another 9 months to your naturalization. You go US taxable on worldwide income the moment you take the green card.


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