# Communities with American Families



## RainbowBright (Jun 13, 2016)

Ok, I'm changing course a bit here....Now I'm thinking that the best area for my son and I to move to would be one that has a large community of Americans living there and sending their kids to school together. I don't really want to be in Mexico City or Guadalajara because I don't enjoy big city life...I prefer things to be more laid back, even if it means giving up some conveniences. All my previous research has focused on beach towns like Puerto Vallarta and Cancun/Cozumel, but I'm willing to give up the beach for the right school environment for my son. (I can always move to PV later!) I know there are tons of Americans living in the San Miguel de Allende area, are there any other large American communities in Mexico, where enrollment at a private English-taught school might be around 50% American/British?


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

I have noted that expat students have a tendency to be poorly behaved, while Mexican students are generally more likely to be better students, and better behaved


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

RainbowBright said:


> Ok, I'm changing course a bit here....Now I'm thinking that the best area for my son and I to move to would be one that has a large community of Americans living there and sending their kids to school together. I don't really want to be in Mexico City or Guadalajara because I don't enjoy big city life...I prefer things to be more laid back, even if it means giving up some conveniences. All my previous research has focused on beach towns like Puerto Vallarta and Cancun/Cozumel, but I'm willing to give up the beach for the right school environment for my son. (I can always move to PV later!) I know there are tons of Americans living in the San Miguel de Allende area, are there any other large American communities in Mexico, where enrollment at a private English-taught school might be around 50% American/British?


Another large contingent of US/Canadians is along the north shore of Lake Chapala about an hour south of Guadalajara, but I think they are mostly older folks with few children. Guadalajara is probably the closest place with good bilingual schools. I interviewed four or five kids applying to Stanford at the beginning of this year. Some were Mexican, some US. They were all from private schools in Guadalajara except for one from PV. The catchment area for interviewees sent to me was the state of Jalisco and the surrounding states, probably everything west of Mexico City.

I am not sure I understand the logic of avoiding a big city like Guadalajara while considering Puerto Vallarta. Both seem to have areas that are big city hectic and areas that are not.

Incidentally, do any of the bilingual schools have 50% native English speakers? I have no direct contact with them, but my impression from interviewees and friends with kids in those schools is that the bulk of the student population is upper or upper-middle class Mexicans.


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## RainbowBright (Jun 13, 2016)

Thanks TundraGreen, that makes a lot of sense. I am certainly not opposed to living in a suburb of Guadalajara, I just don't want to be in a totally urban environment like Manhattan. I guess each area and each school would be different, so what I may need to do is visit a few places. I was kind of enthusiastic about PV, but it sounds like the kids at the school I was considering might not be welcoming to foreign kids. I'm looking for a place my son will feel happy, not excluded. (We can get that here at any number of high schools, lol!)

Here is more of what one parent said about the American School of Puerto Vallarta:


"Mexican children are very class oriented, they are good at treating people (and often teachers) as 2nd class citizens. New students are treated as 2nd class. Our daughter reacted to this with righteous indignation. This brought down a tidal wave of pressure and isolation. Other new students seem to be better at figuring our the power hierarchy and moving with it, instead of against it - and they seem to have a somewhat easier time. But this is not an easy school to be "new" at. "


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Kids of middle and upper middle class Mexicans are just as bad as expat´s kids. THe kids that mind their parents are the indigenous poor kids. They are raised to do whatever thy want as long as they do not get in the way of the parents and by 11 or 12 they have to work. 
Last year we picked up an indigenous woman who had been left behind with 3 little kids, one baby , one toddler and a 5 or 6 year old. She was on a dirt road and the colectivo hhad left with her luggage at one of the stops... She rode with us for hours while we were chasing the colectivo as it was the only way she had to go home and we did not go as far as she went and we did not hear the kids once.. it was amazing. We finally caight the colectivo stopped them and she was reunited with her luggage and was able to go home..but meanwhile we did not hear any of the kids, try that with most expats or middle class Mexican family..


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

RainbowBright said:


> Thanks TundraGreen, that makes a lot of sense. I am certainly not opposed to living in a suburb of Guadalajara, I just don't want to be in a totally urban environment like Manhattan. I guess each area and each school would be different, so what I may need to do is visit a few places. I was kind of enthusiastic about PV, but it sounds like the kids at the school I was considering might not be welcoming to foreign kids. I'm looking for a place my son will feel happy, not excluded. (We can get that here at any number of high schools, lol!)
> 
> Here is more of what one parent said about the American School of Puerto Vallarta:
> 
> ...


I am not pushing Guadalajara particularly. I don't get kickbacks from the Chamber of Commerce.

But nowhere in Guadalajara is like Manhattan. I usually refer to Guadalajara as an overgrown pueblito. There are no high rise office buildings in downtown. All the highrises are apartment buildings out in the suburbs, mostly in Zapopan, the wealthiest suburb.


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## Gatos (Aug 16, 2016)

TundraGreen said:


> I am not pushing Guadalajara particularly. I don't get kickbacks from the Chamber of Commerce.
> 
> But nowhere in Guadalajara is like Manhattan. I usually refer to Guadalajara as an overgrown pueblito. There are no high rise office buildings in downtown. All the highrises are apartment buildings out in the suburbs, mostly in Zapopan, the wealthiest suburb.


Just my personal opinion - the traffic in Guadalajara is the worst in Mexico - particularly the gloriettas.


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## circle110 (Jul 20, 2009)

Gatos said:


> Just my personal opinion - the traffic in Guadalajara is the worst in Mexico - particularly the gloriettas.


Based on my personal experience, I don't agree. I have driven several times in Guadalajara and not had much trouble at all. In fact, I am always surprised how easy it is considering the population of the city. 
Unfortunately, I have to drive frequently in Mexico City and it can be a 3 hour traffic nightmare to go 1/4 of the way across town on some days. My vote for worst traffic horror goes to Mexico City.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Gatos said:


> Just my personal opinion - the traffic in Guadalajara is the worst in Mexico - particularly the gloriettas.


I don't know if it is the worst in Mexico, Mexico City is a competitor, but it is terrible. The construction of a new subway line isn't helping things either. Fortunately I almost never drive. I can walk or use the shared bicycle system for nearly every thing I do. For rare trips to more distant parts of town, I let the bus driver deal with the traffic.

The glorietas (round-abouts or traffic circles): well, they can be exciting.


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## perropedorro (Mar 19, 2016)

citlali said:


> Kids of middle and upper middle class Mexicans are just as bad as expat´s kids.


Mexican fresa kids are usually worse, and their arrogance doesn't end with lording it over classmates (or teachers) lower in the economic pecking order at the expensive colegio they attend. Family and friends who teach or admin at UdeG share many anecdotes regarding these children of privilege and their comeback for lazy academic performance or a low grade "_Do you know who my daddy is?_" Of course they do, snot, you toss his name and power around every day.


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## RainbowBright (Jun 13, 2016)

perropedorro said:


> Mexican fresa kids are usually worse, and their arrogance doesn't end with lording it over classmates (or teachers) lower in the economic pecking order at the expensive colegio they attend. Family and friends who teach or admin at UdeG share many anecdotes regarding these children of privilege and their comeback for lazy academic performance or a low grade "_Do you know who my daddy is?_" Of course they do, snot, you toss his name and power around every day.


This is what is worrying me a bit. My son is very humble and we aren't people who come across as having a lot of money or status (even though we are secure enough financially). We are just not into appearances and presenting that way. He has always been in alternative schools here in the US and would do well with other American kids (or Mexican kids) who are a little quirky or artsy, or even just plain nice. But I'm not crazy about the idea of a snobbish setting...I could get that here at several schools I know of!


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## dwwhiteside (Apr 17, 2013)

First, let me offer a disclaimer; well, two actually. One, I have never had school age kids while living in Mexico nor have I had any association with any schools here. Two, I am not promoting the area or trying to convince you to come here. But, I do want to make you aware of this area just in case you want to check it out.

I live in Colima and there are two private schools here that specialize in English language instruction; Campoverde and Colegio Ingles. Campoverde is much larger and has classes from pre-kinder through high school. I do not know anything about tuition costs or fees at these schools, I just know they both exist and seem to have fairly extensive facilities.

Regarding Colima, this is not a huge expat community. However, I have met three U.S. expat families just here in my neighborhood and I am sure there are a few more. But, if a large contingent of U.S. expats is an important criteria for you, this may not be your place.

Personally, I really like Colima. It's not too big and not too small in my opinion. We are not on the beach but, you can be in Manzanillo in an hour or, if you just want the beach itself without the resort hotels, we're half an hour from Cuyutlan. And most things are much more affordable here than in the resort areas or areas with a much higher concentration of expats.


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## RainbowBright (Jun 13, 2016)

dwwhiteside said:


> First, let me offer a disclaimer; well, two actually. One, I have never had school age kids while living in Mexico nor have I had any association with any schools here. Two, I am not promoting the area or trying to convince you to come here. But, I do want to make you aware of this area just in case you want to check it out.
> 
> I live in Colima and there are two private schools here that specialize in English language instruction; Campoverde and Colegio Ingles. Campoverde is much larger and has classes from pre-kinder through high school. I do not know anything about tuition costs or fees at these schools, I just know they both exist and seem to have fairly extensive facilities.
> 
> ...


I just googled it and Colima looks lovely, and not too far from the beach!  This process is complicated for me because I really need to find a place where my son will have a positive school experience, and be able to successfully complete a high school degree that will be a US equivalent. I'll check out the schools you mentioned, thanks! Another option for me, if I can't get this figured out adequately, is to just move to Mexico once he graduates high school here. He has three years to go, and I can wait if I really need to.


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## circle110 (Jul 20, 2009)

I really like your plan of moving to Mexico and giving your son an international experience, not to mention the fact that he would be fluent in Spanish by the time he graduated. Don't give up too easily!

I think your desire to find a high quality school that would be accredited by the US university system is wise as well, but my two cents is that you shouldn't put too much emphasis on finding a large expat community. A small but good one may give you an even better experience. 

I haven't researched schools yet (although in May we're going to have a baby and I guess it won't be too long before that becomes a necessity!) so I can't be of help there, but I think that you are doing your research well and I hope you wind up deciding to go ahead do it -- for both you and your son's sake. I really doubt you'll regret it!


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## Gatos (Aug 16, 2016)

My parents moved the family in the middle of my junior year in high school - without ever discussing it with me. I thought that was pretty inconsiderate of them. I spent that summer travelling the country with three friends in a VW fan. When I got home the plans for the new house were on the kitchen table. Really had a big impact on my life as I had a lot of roots planted.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Gatos said:


> My parents moved the family in the middle of my junior year in high school - without ever discussing it with me. I thought that was pretty inconsiderate of them. I spent that summer travelling the country with three friends in a VW fan. When I got home the plans for the new house were on the kitchen table. Really had a big impact on my life as I had a lot of roots planted.


Kids old enough to have friends are never enthused about the prospects for a move. How they feel about it after a year or so in the new place depends on a lot of things, but it is rarely the complete downer that they anticipate before it happens.


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## Gatos (Aug 16, 2016)

I don't know - I never received a degree in child psychology - only personal experiences.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Gatos said:


> I don't know - I never received a degree in child psychology - only personal experiences.


How did you feel after the move?


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## Gatos (Aug 16, 2016)

TundraGreen said:


> How did you feel after the move?


Excuse me - I may go off on a tangent or two - but my parents moved 'principally' because they did not want my two younger brothers to turn out like I had. I think they had a problem with my attitude - because I wasn't in any real trouble with the police - and I was the star (one of anyway) on the varsity football team as a junior (pretty bad team). I grew up in a very very Italian community. At one point I was approached by someone who told me - stay away from the drugs and the girls and I will get you into any school in the country you want. I had the closest friends I have ever had in my life.

So after football season we moved. If there was a bright spot - I was only an hour's bus ride to my old town. Most every weekend I went back and stayed with a friend's family (French). They were my surrogate family. I had a teacher at the old school - picture the most beautiful blonde girl you can at say Woodstock - she had a brother my age at the new school. She asked him to show me the ropes. He was a nice enough kid - kind of a 'druggie' - died by choking on his own vomit at a party one night - and this was the town my parents thought was 'better' than the old one.

When the following fall came along I went out for the senior year football at the new school. They were undefeated the previous three years. Nobody really knew what to make of me - a big guy with a pony tail - and who could outrun just about everyone and could kick the butt of some very 'established' regulars. We had a good year and I made some friends - mostly girls. But that was after almost a year - and there was really only six months or so left for high school at that point.

My parents never discussed college with me - and at one point I sat in the counselors office and said I wanted to go to college - her jaw dropped - she had no idea. The classes at the new school vs old school didn't mesh well. In some things I was advanced and in others behind. So I took the SATs (east coast) and did so-so. Then I took whatever version of test you need for west coast schools and did so well they actually accused me of cheating. I was in 'love' with a girl a year behind me and ended up staying home for a year at a community college - even though I did have two full rides offered in Kansas and Wyoming. Later (after breaking up) I went to another school.

My younger brothers learned some from my experiences. One ended up graduating from Johns Hopkins - the other Rochester Institute of Tech.

I do wish my parents would have let me stay in the old school. But if they would have waited for me to graduate - it wouldn't have made it any easier for my brothers.


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## Gatos (Aug 16, 2016)

Obviously - my point is - what does the kid think ? And - has the kid really been informed as to what to expect ? And - has the kid been offered an out if he/she doesn't buy in after a period ?


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## perropedorro (Mar 19, 2016)

RainbowBright said:


> I just googled it and Colima looks lovely, and not too far from the beach!  This process is complicated for me because I really need to find a place where my son will have a positive school experience, and be able to successfully complete a high school degree that will be a US equivalent. I'll check out the schools you mentioned, thanks! Another option for me, if I can't get this figured out adequately, is to just move to Mexico once he graduates high school here. He has three years to go, and I can wait if I really need to.


I’ll second dwwhiteside’s comments about Colima (capital). I live down on the coast, but get there often enough. Something worth mentioning is U of Colima and its strong presence in the town. Having a university is a positive influence on nearby secondary institutions and enhances the cultural and educational opportunities available. As far as expat communities in the state of Colima, they’re concentrated in the small beach communities just north of Manzanillo, but I’ve found them to be much more low-key and less _obnoxtentatious_ than the ones in Vallarta. Everyone has their comfort zone, and I applaud your decision to give your child such an experience. Mexican wife and I have got two in college now and it was far different, but with the same results. 25 years in L.A., twisted Spanglish being the lingua franca at home, at least a month a year in Mexico. They turned out OK, fully bilingal/bicultural. As far as finding a community to live in, we avoided large concentrations of expats, but there are a few around. Nor have I gone fully native, finding that peculiar “More-Mexican-than-thou” brand of expat equally annoying. Just find your comfort level and expand on it.


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## RainbowBright (Jun 13, 2016)

Gatos said:


> Obviously - my point is - what does the kid think ? And - has the kid really been informed as to what to expect ? And - has the kid been offered an out if he/she doesn't buy in after a period ?


Hi Gatos, wow, what a great story! Thanks for sharing with us. My high school years were terribly traumatic, so I am very sympathetic to these issues and don't want to do anything that would make my son's situation worse.

Currently, he is attending a high school in the US that he does not like. It's actually a very good school, safe, etc, but his friends from middle school ended up at different schools and he's having a hard time fitting in and making new friends. I think he sits alone at lunch every day.  He is in 9th grade now, and I'm open to making changes to try to find a better fit for him. It's definitely not ok for him to be miserable for four years.

We were in Mexico over the recent holidays, and he likes Mexico a lot. We talked hypothetically about moving to Mexico and he was all for it, but it was not a solid plan, just a "wouldn't it be nice" kind of conversation. I was going to take him to visit the American School of Puerto Vallarta over Spring Break, and if we BOTH liked it a lot and wanted to give it a try, then I was going to move forward with the legal paperwork to move down there for one year (10th grade), which could then be extended to more years if we were both happy. But I wasn't going to do any of this against his will.

However I've hit a big bump in the plan, reading about the snobbish attitude of wealthy Mexican kids. The ASPV is mostly Mexican kids, and to pay the tuition it's pretty much a certainty that they will be of the rich variety. (On a side note, my older son who is now in college went to an expensive boarding school here in the US, and there were a number of rich Mexican students there. Though they are now some of his long-term best friends, he also reported that they can be "extremely arrogant." So I think the criticism may generally be valid.) 

My younger son is humble and not very confident, and he will not excel in a difficult social situation. He is already feeling excluded at the school he is at now and I want to find an improvement for him, not more rejection. My experience in Mexico has always been that the people are warm and friendly and kind. However, I have probably been interacting more with middle-class people, and not rich people. I have experienced snobbish social situations at private schools here in the US, and I would not put my younger son in a school like that here, or in Mexico. He actually does best with "alternative" types of people...artists, musicians (he is a musician himself), drama kids, etc. If I could find a community of artsy Americans in Mexico (San Miguel de Allende/Guanajuato?), and if there was a decent number of them sending their kids to a particular school, then I might have a workable situation. But I know that is a lot to ask for, and I'm not sure I can find it in Mexico. So long story short, I will keep looking, but what I may need to do is to just switch him to a school here that is a better fit for him, and then wait out the next three years until he graduates and I can move myself to Mexico, though perhaps only part-time for the first few years, since he will need some support through college too. The only upside to that is that I will be able to move to any town or city I like, since finding a school will not be an issue anymore.


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## AnneLM (Aug 16, 2016)

My sympathies, RB. Full disclosure: I am not living in Mexico, and I have no experience with schools there. But I am the parent of 2 adult daughters who despite some quirks survived and thrived in a public school system in a working class suburb in midwestern US. I think your new plan is a sensible one. You will be able to get a better read on schools back home without having to decipher the ambiguities of social expectations in an unfamiliar culture. You should be able to find other parents you can talk to to assess the situation. One suggestion: a larger school is not always bad, as it can have a larger variety of social niches.

If you continue to travel and expose your son to life abroad, this could prove the best of both worlds. Focusing on finding the best place for you to eventually live in Mexico will provide unexpected advantages for him as well.

A dramatic move can give a teen a fresh start, and any inabilities to fit in at the new place can be chalked up to it being, after all, a foreign country instead of on one's own social inadequacies. If your son is able to brush off any difficulties he may have and focus on being his own person and exploring his new world, not worrying about fitting in, then a move to Mexico could actually be a good idea. But be sure you and he are honest about it and up to all the unrelated hassles of moving there before taking such a step! The grass might not really be greener!Best of luck!


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## RainbowBright (Jun 13, 2016)

AnneLM said:


> My sympathies, RB. Full disclosure: I am not living in Mexico, and I have no experience with schools there. But I am the parent of 2 adult daughters who despite some quirks survived and thrived in a public school system in a working class suburb in midwestern US. I think your new plan is a sensible one. You will be able to get a better read on schools back home without having to decipher the ambiguities of social expectations in an unfamiliar culture. You should be able to find other parents you can talk to to assess the situation. One suggestion: a larger school is not always bad, as it can have a larger variety of social niches.
> 
> If you continue to travel and expose your son to life abroad, this could prove the best of both worlds. Focusing on finding the best place for you to eventually live in Mexico will provide unexpected advantages for him as well.
> 
> A dramatic move can give a teen a fresh start, and any inabilities to fit in at the new place can be chalked up to it being, after all, a foreign country instead of on one's own social inadequacies. If your son is able to brush off any difficulties he may have and focus on being his own person and exploring his new world, not worrying about fitting in, then a move to Mexico could actually be a good idea. But be sure you and he are honest about it and up to all the unrelated hassles of moving there before taking such a step! The grass might not really be greener!Best of luck!



Thanks Anne! This is exactly what I'm thinking. We already have a different US school in mind for next year (the one where several of his good friends are at), and hopefully he will be happier there. In the meantime, we can continue to travel to Mexico on his breaks, and check out the different areas and schools. If we find one that really seems like a fit, we can move there for subsequent years. And if we don't find a school that will work, I'll still be gathering information about where I'd eventually like to move!


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## surabi (Jan 1, 2017)

Google the Sierra School in Todos Santos, Baja California Sur. My daughter lives there and her 12year old and 14 year old go there. Not snobby, international baccalaureate program, focus on environmental stewardship. Seems like it might be a perfect fit for your son. And Todos santos is a pretty sweet little town.


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## RainbowBright (Jun 13, 2016)

surabi said:


> Google the Sierra School in Todos Santos, Baja California Sur. My daughter lives there and her 12year old and 14 year old go there. Not snobby, international baccalaureate program, focus on environmental stewardship. Seems like it might be a perfect fit for your son. And Todos santos is a pretty sweet little town.


Sounds great, thanks! I will check it out!


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