# 19 June demonstrations organise by Democracia Ya against the Euro pact etc



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Lots of support for the marches against the Euro Pact and cuts in Social Services

Valencia
25,000 people according to the town hall, 80,0000 according to the organizers


> El Movimiento 15-M estaba anoche satisfecho. Todo salió bien, el ambiente fue festivo, no se produjeron incidentes y la asistencia fue multitudinaria en las principales ciudades. La manifestación que partió de la plaza del Ayuntamiento de Valencia reunió a cerca 25.000 personas, según cálculos propios. Los organizadores elevaron la asistencia a 80.000 personas y la equipararon a las celebradas contra la guerra en 2004. La Delegación del Gobierno no ofreció datos.


Barcelona
can't find figures, but this quote says that the head of the march arrived at the Plaza Pau at 6:30. Meanwhile the people at the back had to wait another hour and a half before they could even set off!


> A las seis y media, la cabecera llegó a Pla de Palau. Las personas que seguían en plaza de Catalunya tardaron todavía una hora y media en poder arrancar.


Andalucia
Some wildly disparate figures here, but, people were in the streets.


> Decenas de miles de indignados salieron ayer a la calle en Andalucía. En Granada, fueron 18.000 personas; en Málaga, 12.000; en Córdoba, 5.000; en Cádiz, 4.000 y en Jaén, 1.500, siempre según la Policía Local. En Huelva se reunieron 3.000 personas, según los convocantes, y en Almería, 5.000. La Policía Local de Sevilla cifró el seguimiento en 5.000 manifestantes, aunque la organización lo elevó hasta los 40.000.


And in Madrid... The head line in El País says it all (this time in English)
*15-M movement shows strength with massive march against social cuts
Madrid demonstration near Congress supported by tens of thousands*
It continues


> Despite the heat, around 40,000 Spaniards (according to a measurement taken by Lynce for Efe news agency at 2.20pm) marched peacefully, chanting slogans such as "We're not paying for your crisis" and "They call it democracy but it's not."
> 
> The massive demonstration was proof of the undying spirit of 15-M, the grassroots movement that began as a protest against political mismanagement of the economic crisis on May 15,


It was very very hot in Madrid and I got a bit too much sun. That's after more than 20 years here as well, so you'd thinkI'd have got used to it by now!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hundreds of thousands march for change.
Many more hundreds of thousands across Spain voted on May 22nd for the status quo rightwards.
How to bridge the gap?
What if the politicians ignore the street protests -as they will.
What are the Trades Unions doing to 'educate' people?
Has the movement begun to work within PSOE, IU and other such that should be crystallising the desire for change into the tools for change?
I'm looking forward to my trip to London this week. We shall be discussing strategies for slowing the UK Coalition's savage cuts programme with Union leaders at TUC.
My own Union is doing its bit by funding the Robin Hood tax video with Bill Nighy which is shown at UK cinemas before the feature film.
I'm working for change with my union and TUC in the UK and PSOE here in Spain because I think that's the most effective wayto bring it about.
Change is brought about in committee rooms as well as on the streets.
Both should go hand in hand.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Has the movement begun to work within PSOE, IU and other such that should be crystallising the desire for change into the tools for change?


The IU are trying to tag along with (some might say infiltrate) the movement, but because they are gagged by the requirement to support the PSOE they will not support radical change. And of course the PSOE is part of the problem, they are committed to implementing cuts at the behest of the IMF and the ECB,


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Pesky brilliant day executed as close to perfection as you can get. Saw lots of detail on direct feeds. Just wish I could have been there.

Heard of the great event in Gijon. If we can stimulate action there then we can do it anywhere 

We have gone from tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands in a very short time. And it is not only the protests but more importantly the cross country debates. People are exploring new ideas and getting involved. Youngsters are realising the future can be more in their hands. 

Whether a new form of politics comes out of this, new parties are formed, or the traditional parties have to make consessions to stay in power then it has been worth while. 

Of course we must maintain momentum. The traditionalists are getting left behind not wanting to accept change and that is our massive advantage. 

Anyway well done for your bit in the sun :clap2:


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina;546738. And of course the PSOE is part of the problem said:


> Grass roots involvement needed to get in those Parties and force change from the ground up.
> My local PSOE branch wants to get the world out of the grip of the IMF etc. so it's a case of preaching to the converted there.
> Sadly they are traumatised by the shock of being ejected from office after thirty plus years of power and by the apparent '100 day' dynamism of our newPP Mayor.
> He has forgone his salary, municipal car, cut down on expenses for consejales...
> ...


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Grass roots involvement needed to get in those Parties and force change from the ground up.
> My local PSOE branch wants to get the world out of the grip of the IMF etc. so it's a case of preaching to the converted there.
> Sadly they are traumatised by the shock of being ejected from office after thirty plus years of power and by the apparent '100 day' dynamism of our newPP Mayor.
> He has forgone his salary, municipal car, cut down on expenses for consejales...
> ...


But although there are many individuals in the PSOE who desperately oppose the austerity measures, when it comes to the crunch, if they are in power at the Ayuntamiento they will have to implement them. Your colleagues in Estepona might have had a lucky break; it will be the PP who make themselves rather less "popular" when the axe really starts to fall (which it will) in Andalucia.

We are still waiting for our new IU-PP coalition to make a statement about what their plans are for our town ... I would love to be a fly on the wall in there!

We didn't get to demonstrate yesterday  as the local DRY group decided at the last minute to go and join the big one in Jerez.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> But although there are many individuals in the PSOE who desperately oppose the austerity measures, *when it comes to the crunch, if **they are in power at the Ayuntamiento they will have to implement them*. Your colleagues in Estepona might have had a lucky break; it will be the PP who make themselves rather less "popular" when the axe really starts to fall (which it will) in Andalucia.
> .


That's just what national governments say...we have no choice.
PSOE in Estepona left 160 million euros deficit, owe Seg Soc big-time, have had a municipal account blocked because they owe Deutsche Bank 320000 euros...
Our former Mayor's heart was in the right place but he inherited a reasonably healthy financial situation. I suspect he was not a good manager.
What can anyone do in such a situation, I wonder...


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> That's just what national governments say...we have no choice.
> PSOE in Estepona left 160 million euros deficit, owe Seg Soc big-time, have had a municipal account blocked because they owe Deutsche Bank 320000 euros...
> Our former Mayor's heart was in the right place but he inherited a reasonably healthy financial situation. I suspect he was not a good manager.
> What can anyone do in such a situation, I wonder...


It's easy to see why Spain is so deep in the doo doo isn't it?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> That's just what national governments say...we have no choice.
> PSOE in Estepona left 160 million euros deficit, owe Seg Soc big-time, have had a municipal account blocked because they owe Deutsche Bank 320000 euros...
> Our former Mayor's heart was in the right place but he inherited a reasonably healthy financial situation. I suspect he was not a good manager.
> What can anyone do in such a situation, I wonder...


Any idea how much is owed by businesses and holiday home owners who have several years' worth of IBI outstanding?

A bit of asset confiscation might not go amiss ...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Plenty of positive talk about it on the radio today from La Cope (PP) to la Ser (leftish)


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

nigele2 said:


> Heard of the great event in Gijon. If we can stimulate action there then we can do it anywhere
> 
> We have gone from tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands in a very short time. And it is not only the protests but more importantly the cross country debates. People are exploring new ideas and getting involved. Youngsters are realising the future can be more in their hands.
> 
> ...


Gijón a bit sleepy is it?

Surprise surprise I very much agree with you Nigele2, and was going to write something similar.
It's amazing what has been achieved in a few weeks, and it's been efficient, organised and in a spirit of cooperation and respect.
I hope they don't lose the way now.

PS The sun was really strong and I felt quite ill actually


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Nice little video in today's Guardian of the march in Madrid yesterday. I must say, if the people shown here are feckless anarchist layabouts they've done a pretty good job of disguising it ...

Spain gets angry: 'The people united will never be defeated' - video | World news | guardian.co.uk


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Nice little video in today's Guardian of the march in Madrid yesterday. I must say, if the people shown here are feckless anarchist layabouts they've done a pretty good job of disguising it ...
> 
> Spain gets angry: 'The people united will never be defeated' - video | World news | guardian.co.uk


Hahaha.

What a brilliant video.
Well done to Ofelia de Pablo and Javier Zurita!:clap2:

PS at one stage you can see an orange se vende sign (I forget what it said se vende un gobierno usado or something like that) We were about 15 people in front!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hahaha.
> 
> What a brilliant video.
> Well done to Ofelia de Pablo and Javier Zurita!:clap2:
> ...


What it actually said was...

Se vende estado de bienestar soleado. Todo a reformer (ideal banqueros.

For Sale. Sunny welfare state. To be remodelled (ideal for bankers)

Some more slogans

Violencia es no llegar al fin de mes (With reference to the supposed violence in some previous demonstrations)

Violence is, not getting to the end of the month

Lo llaman democracia, y no lo es.

They call it democracy, but it isn't

El pueblo, unido, jamás será vencido

A united people will never be overcome
Would be nice if it were true


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

From today's 'Indie'


_The principal weakness for Greece, however, seems to be the inability of the state to collect its taxes, especially among the middle classes and its elite, traditionally associated with the shipping trade. 

The European Union/IMF/ European Central Bank "troika" of officials who have been in residence in Athens more or less constantly over the past year have politely but unmistakeably made clear their frustrations in this regard. It lies at the root of Greece's excessive indebtedness. The UK's debt to national income ratio will peak at about 75 per cent in a couple of years; Greece's is set to hit 160 per cent. Given an average interest rate on her debt of about 8 per cent and a growth rate way below that, the real-terms burden of debt is unsustainable._ 

So...why should the poorer paid who can't avoid paying legitimate taxes pay for these parasites?
Add this tax avoidance to the black economy tax avoidance...
I read recently that the tax take in the province of Malaga has reduced by a huge % in the last financial year.

BTW: 'The people united will never be defeated' is an excellent stirring marching slogan but sadly historically untrue.

The 'people' can never be united ....claims of such unity are spurious and often misused and based on dubious grounds...think of 'Ein Volk ein Reich ein Fuhrer'......

But interests can and must be reconciled. There are common interests such as full employment, a decent social wage, fair progressive tax systems, true justice for all...

It is the responsibility of democratic government to ensure those basic common interests are 
applied. If not, lack of social cohesion and unrest which affects all. 
It's no coincidence that the states which have followed the Anglo-Saxon free market economic and social model -the U.K., the U.S., New Zealand - have all experienced social dislocation as seen in family breakdown, divorce rates, alcoholism, drug abuse etc. at a much greater level than states which have held on albeit precariously to the social market model.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

As a result of elections held since the beginning of the crisis only fiveof the twenty-seven EU member states have centre-left governments.
In Spain, the U.K. and Portugal centre-left Parties have experienced their greatest loss of electoral support for decades.
In the Portuguese elections on June 5th the two conservative parties won 51% of the vote on a platform of cuts more drastic than those required under the terms of the IMF bail-out.

An odd phenomenum that no-one has yet explained.....


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

This probably needs resurrecting in view of the news recently. All along we have been talking about the Arab Spring, people demonstrating in Spain to get change etc etc. Quite a while ago I said be careful what you wish for.....
There are now crowds gathering in the Arab States again because the change they got was not what they thought they were going to get, in fact it's almost back to business as usual at the top. This is the way with revolutionary change and people all over Europe would be sensible to be mindful of it. As many people said on the forums here change from within is the only long term answer and this is now being proved with maybe devastating results but I hope not.
This is wrong time to be doing anything radical at all, things are too unstable, the news from America is dire, Greece not improving and now Portugal is looking even dicier. I actually think that Spain may get through this without serious long term damage, at least I hope so.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Happyexpat said:


> This probably needs resurrecting in view of the news recently. All along we have been talking about the Arab Spring, people demonstrating in Spain to get change etc etc. Quite a while ago I said be careful what you wish for.....
> There are now crowds gathering in the Arab States again because the change they got was not what they thought they were going to get, in fact it's almost back to business as usual at the top. This is the way with revolutionary change and people all over Europe would be sensible to be mindful of it. As many people said on the forums here change from within is the only long term answer and this is now being proved with maybe devastating results but I hope not.
> *This is wrong time to be doing anything radical at all,* things are too unstable, the news from America is dire, Greece not improving and now Portugal is looking even dicier. I actually think that Spain may get through this without serious long term damage, at least I hope so.


It baffles me that people think if we leave things the way they are, they will eventually get better. Trusting the very people who got us into this mess to get us out of it. After all, they have our best interests at heart, don't they? What's good for them is good for us? 

Sorry Happy, but if ever there was a right time for radical change, it's NOW.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> It baffles me that people think if we leave things the way they are, they will eventually get better. Trusting the very people who got us into this mess to get us out of it. After all, they have our best interests at heart, don't they? What's good for them is good for us?
> 
> Sorry Happy, but if ever there was a right time for radical change, it's NOW.


I was in London on June 30th, the day that public sector unions took strike action. I was at a TUC Conference as my Union did not think that strike action dutring negotiations was a good move, especially as those that did strike had a majority of a minority in their ballots.
I heard a lot of wild, revolutionary talk, the sort of political masturbation that so many on the left get off on these days. Of course the Government did not cave in and the country did not grind to a halt.
What precise kind of change do people want, though? If as is predicted Spain will have a right-wing Government next year,now that _*will*_ be radical. Our radical PP Mayor has brought several exgilistas into his regime, paying them handsome salaries. He has cut funding to the opposition which will make it difficult for them to scrutinise the policies he is implementing. 
That's radical enough for me.
It's about time that the left stopped talking in worn platitudes and produced a practical action programme which, to quote Marx, sees the world as it is, not as we'd all like it to be.
Greek radicals have urged total non-cooperation with the IMF and non-payment of debt. Very radical.
Only problem: without the first tranche of funding, pensions and public sector wages would not be paid after the end of June.
DRy has I believe suggested nationalisation of Spanish banks - or so a report critically examining DRy 's proposals on June 24th in El Pais stated.. I happen to think that the banking system in the UK should have been totally nationalised. But the two main Spanish banks have received no support from the state.....
So..if it ain't broke, why fix it?
Today we learn that Italy, Belgium and Spain -bond yields at 6% - are in the gunsights of the markets.
I have made it clear that I want to see the Rhineland model of social market capitalism survive and flourish...corporatism with a human face, to coin a phrase. 
Why? Because it combines economic efficiency with social justice. 
To use the Fabian phrase, you have to grow the plums before you can make the pie.
Only Europe and global-wide co-operation to regulate and curb the power of global finance and the eradication of the vestiges of neo-con economic doctrine will have any effect and currently there seems scant chance of that. 
We all know that tax evasion is a major cause of economic crisis in Spain, Greece, the UK and many other places.
I doubt if a PP Government will do much about it though.
There is only one boring way to make any progress: get in the major Parties and work for change.
Because that is the only way any change will come about.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Happyexpat;563872This is wrong time to be doing anything radical at all said:


> In the immortal words of the Kaiser Chiefs: 'I predict a riot'.
> Or several.
> I'm waiting for someone to explain why in times of economic crisis people swing to the right.
> In the words of Simon and Gsrfunkel: 'The words of the prophet are written on the subway walls...'
> ...


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

*Radical and change are not the same rhing*

I don't think I actually said leave things as they are are, I just made the points that, streets protests are actually making a worse mess than we have already got plus costing an already broke economy even more money) and that when everything is already in flux making radical changes is not a good idea. That changes have to be made sometime is accepted and supported without any argument or hesitation.

People are frightened, fearful for their jobs, their future, their families and their pensions. People are angry at this being allowed to happen, forgetting of course that they are partly, some would say mostly, to blame by perpetuating the culture of buy now, pay later (maybe). We should always remember that banks cannot lend to borrowers if they don't want the money in the first place often irrespective of the consequences. With a volatile mix such as this the first thing is to achieve stability with any system be it good, bad or indifferent then change the system for something better.

Yet again I have to concur with mrypg9 both as to the possible solution and the dangers we currently face.

I hope I am wrong but to quote Randy Bachman, it is possible that the troubles in Italy, Spain, Portugal, America and Ireland on top of Greece may well mean that 'you ain't seen nothing yet'. A second dip is more than on the cards, it is now very likely. There are really only two choices left, devaluation of the Euro or split off the countries in trouble which could include us. Actually even these options probably now couldn't solve the situation even if they were possible.

Yes it is a case, in the short term, of batten down the hatches, sit tight and see which way the ball bounces. This doesn't stop planning or developing new systems, it just means we don't rock the sinking boat at this moment in time, too dangerous! At the moment panic and knee jerk reactions are probably our worst enemy

If the financial systems around the world do collapse, which is very unlikely, then radical change will happen all by itself. We also should remember that many South American countries, in particular Brazil are actually doing very well, now I wonder why that is



Alcalaina said:


> It baffles me that people think if *we leave things the way they are, they will eventually get better.* Trusting the very people who got us into this mess to get us out of it. After all, they have our best interests at heart, don't they? What's good for them is good for us?
> 
> Sorry Happy, but if ever there was a right time for radical change, it's NOW.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Happyexpat said:


> If the financial systems around the world do collapse, which is very unlikely, then radical change will happen all by itself. We also should remember that many South American countries, in particular Brazil are actually doing very well, now I wonder why that is


Radical change happening all by itself - I'd settle for that. 

Argentina told the IMF where to get off and defaulted on its loan. They still had their austerity measures as a result but actually emerged much stronger afterwards because the resulting savings weren't all siphoned off into interest payments.

Perhaps Spain should leave the EU and become part of the United States of South America??


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

*Many a true word said in jest*

Actually reading between the lines on comments being made by many of the South American Governments your last comment on the USSA may be nearer the truth than we all realise.....same is surprisingly true of other areas in particular Central Africa and the Far East. We have already seen movement in that direction with the middle East.
Radical change does have a habit of happening by itself, often not in a way we would like though. 
Here's a thought; how about two European financial blocks, Western Europe and Southern and Eastern combined, unlikely Yes but who knows. Even better idea, let's get Murdoch over here and then we would surely know what was going on with our politicos!

As for defaulting on loans etc I can remember seeing pictures as a kid of Italians pushing wheelbarrows full of useless money....

As written by 'Harper' in the Monkey's Paw, be careful what you wish for, it may come true!


Alcalaina said:


> Radical change happening all by itself - I'd settle for that.
> 
> Argentina told the IMF where to get off and defaulted on its loan. They still had their austerity measures as a result but actually emerged much stronger afterwards because the resulting savings weren't all siphoned off into interest payments.
> 
> Perhaps Spain should leave the EU and become part of the *United States of South America??*


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Happyexpat said:


> People are frightened, fearful for their jobs, their future, their families and their pensions.


But there are a growing number of Spaniards with: NO job (my family in the south), NO future (my step daughter in Lanzarote), NO families (there being ripped apart largely due to economic pressure - my siste-in-law) and NO pension (my wife - but to be fair now the UK are looking after it). 

If you have nothing you have nothing to lose  Luckily I will be a big looser if the revolution comes but sometimes (agreed each in our own way) we have to do what we believe is right even if that leads to sacrificises. Don't get me wrong I like the idea of the system self correcting and recovery bringing prosperity for all but I see no evidense that this is anything but a pipedream.

And if we let the current system stabilise then the corrupt rich and powerful will be stronger. They'll lead us into the next round of boom (for the rich) and bust (for the poor). The enemy is weak; let's take our chance while we have it  

I read in recent days of a family with 7 kids thrown into the streets and a woman in her 60s selling here body for 8Es a time. "If I don't I don't eat".


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Looking at the situation as it is:

the ballot box is the only way in which power can be transferred in a democracy. However imperfect, that is the system we have. Tinkering with it won't alter that basic fact. There will be no revolution in Spain or any developed country.

it seems 99% certain that next year's regional and national elections will result in power to the Partido Popular. I view that with dismay but the voice of the people......

it is unlikely that a PP Government will implement Keyensian policies to stimulate employment. But there are stromg cultural, historical and religious reasons why it will not completely abandon its social market commitment in its entirety if sufficiently pressurised..

If, as is clearly the case, street demonstrations will have scant effect on those in power - think about Greece: if things get too out of hand, the Government will simply declare martial law - then the clear and effective way to change policy is to get involved in the institutions where real power to change lies: the major political parties. Just imagine the impact if tens of thousands of citizens joined their local PSOE or PP branch and pressed for real change......
That actually happened in the UK Labour Party in the eighties. Unfortunately those who inflitrated local branches were mainly middle class Trots and other' infantile deviationists', to quote Lenin,who merely succeeded in pushing the Party so far to the statist left that at the election in 1983 it got its lowest vote in history.
That won't happen in Spain as the era of statism is long gone. Mass 'infiltration' could be a real force for change.

Things are moving beneath the surface. Progress has been made in world-wide regulation of banks. The EU is actively considering the Tobin tax. It seems that investors who took a risk by buying Greek bonds at high yields will learn that you can lose as well as win. Good.
Demonstrations and other street protests are valuable when those in power won't listen and there is no other way of expressing democratic opinion.
But that is not the case in Spain when, like it or not, many more people voted PP than joined in street protests.
Street actions are fun. They give a sense of solidarity, of righteous indignation. But they rarely express the views of the majority.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> .
> 
> And if we let the current system stabilise then the corrupt rich and powerful will be stronger. They'll lead us into the next round of boom (for the rich) and bust (for the poor). The enemy is weak; let's take our chance while we have it
> 
> ...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Radical change happening all by itself - I'd settle for that.
> 
> Argentina told the IMF where to get off and defaulted on its loan. They still had their austerity measures as a result but actually emerged much stronger afterwards because the resulting savings weren't all siphoned off into interest payments.
> 
> Perhaps Spain should leave the EU and become part of the United States of South America??


But they didn't tell the IMF 'where to get off'. Argentina experienced total meltdown. They couldn't pay even if they had wanted to. 
It's too facile to talk of default as if it's an easy option, methinks. In practice the poor would be hit harder than the rich who most likely hold their wealth outside the defaulting country. In Argentina, the richest 10% are over fifty times more wealthy than the poorest 10%. You cannot compare Spain with Argentina.
There are alternatives to default. The proposals currently being hammered out make more sense: a justly deserved 30% 'haircut' for speculative investors who bought at high yields coupled with a roll-over. If you bought bonds at 12% or more hoping for a quick profit on credit default swaps you deserve to lose by the very rules of the game. No reputable investment/pension fund would take on such risks so 'ordinary' people's savings and pensions would be safe.
Thr logical evolution of the EU and Eurozone is to split off the peripheral states and set up a two-tier Euro. The sound core states: Germany, Austria, the Netherlands, Sweden and a few more could then go ahead with the fiscal union that is clearly needed if a single currency is to work at all efficiently.
Greece has been technically insolvent for almost a century. Allowing it to enter the eurozone and take advantage of cheap credit when it clearly had cooked the books (with the help of Goldman Sachs) to meet the criteria was nothing more than criminal.
Ironic that it was a right-wing government that created the mess the government of Papandreou has to deal with.


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## littleredrooster (Aug 3, 2008)

Sweden still has its own currency, the Swedish Kronor or SEK, and seems very happy with it, thank you very much.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

littleredrooster said:


> Sweden still has its own currency, the Swedish Kronor or SEK, and seems very happy with it, thank you very much.


Not sure what your point is? So does the UK, and they don´t seem too happy right now.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

So....what practical steps will you be taking, Nigel?

Glad you asked:

I see the key as being to protect the young from the failed establishment and to persuade them not to listen to those who think the system is somehow self healing and that the greedy rich have some right. We all have the right to a home, education, a job, health services, security and a level of support for the needy. So I'm doing all I can there with the Spanish youth that I know, both supporting them and talking to them.

I'm also offering full support to those blocking family evictions and other injustices. We have seen success in Torrejon with this. Yes you could say we are braking the law but who's law?? 

I am also trying to help with exposing the *******s at the top, the thieves, the insane power brokers. 

It's a long process but then the current set up has had 30+ years screwing it up.

I accept the impact I can have is small but I do what I can. But I'm not alone 

And when you say the marches you went on had no effect as you know I disagree but also it is important to remember that in your days of marching all the weapons were held by the state. Now the greatest weapon, unlimited communication, is in the hands of the revolutionaries.

Anyone can argue against a revolution because they think of civil wars but not all revolutions are like that. And anyway don't expect anyone to listen if all you have to offer is the PSOE  

And finally anyone can say the movement won't succeed but then they don't actually know what the end game is


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

nigele2 said:


> And finally anyone can say the movement won't succeed but then they don't actually know what the end game is


Does anyone inside these movements actually know know what the 'end game' is?


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

jimenato said:


> Does anyone inside these movements actually know know what the 'end game' is?


Yup. For most it is jobs, homes, food to eat, justice for all and hope. Not very much to ask for 

I think the problem for the power hungry corrupt crooks is that they actually think what they have is what everyone else wants. How sick is that?


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## littleredrooster (Aug 3, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Not sure what your point is? So does the UK, and they don´t seem too happy right now.


Merely pointing out an inaccuracy in the previous post.

I don't see any of the countries who stayed out of the eurozone seriously regretting their decision, however some who joined are obviously not so keen now, especially with the recent turn of events which were inevitable anyway and have simply been hastened with the coming of the recession.
Taking more weak countries on board was obviously only going to have one ending as the countries that stayed out well realized.

To get back to topic, whilst I have every sympathy with those involved in the demos, much like other posters I have been wondering from the beginning regarding their exact intentions.
With the power of the internet as well as the media and such massive support all things should be possible, but at present they seem akin to a huge rudderless ocean liner drifting aimlessly with no set destination.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

littleredrooster said:


> To get back to topic, whilst I have every sympathy with those involved in the demos, much like other posters I have been wondering from the beginning regarding their exact intentions.
> With the power of the internet as well as the media and such massive support all things should be possible, but at present they seem akin to a huge rudderless ocean liner drifting aimlessly with no set destination.


I don't think they started out with exact intentions - there are so many different reasons to be _indignado_. There are a small number of revolutionary socialists in the movement, if that's what you're worried about, but they are vastly outnumbered by people who just want reform.

More like a collection of different shoals of sardines than an ocean liner perhaps? 
But concrete proposals and actions are emerging, especially with the evictions, and the shoals are starting to join up.


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

*End game, what end game?*

Do you know what the 'end game' is, do any of the radicals know what the end game is, does anybody for that matter know what the end game is or is it some sort of need to know inner circle secret? Frankly I don't think anybody knows what is happening and everybody Inc governments are just 'playing it on a day to day basis'
Just an opinion but more is being made of this Murdoch business because it's taking peoples minds off the real problems! 


nigele2 said:


> So....what practical steps will you be taking, Nigel?
> 
> 
> And finally anyone can say the movement won't succeed but then they don't actually know what the end game is


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## littleredrooster (Aug 3, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I don't think they started out with exact intentions - there are so many different reasons to be _indignado_. There are a small number of revolutionary socialists in the movement, if that's what you're worried about, but they are vastly outnumbered by people who just want reform.
> 
> More like a collection of different shoals of sardines than an ocean liner perhaps?
> But concrete proposals and actions are emerging, especially with the evictions, and the shoals are starting to join up.


Would be great to think they could all join up in a common cause, but somehow
shades of the republican resistance in the civil war come to mind.


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## Happyexpat (Apr 4, 2011)

This has been said in different ways time and time again by many people, including me, in different threads but the contributors advocating radical change don't seem to be taking the point on board.
Yes it would be great if they could all join up in a common cause but somebody has to define the cause, the 'end game' as was said earlier. Trouble is nobody seems to know what that is or to be able to specifically define the cause to struggle for. It's ok to say we don't like what is happening now, we don't like what we are being told is going to happen, we are suffering but there is little to no point in protesting about it. The need is to define a workable immediate solution plus a medium to long term alternative system in that order especially in Spain and the other countries in serious trouble.
I am not religious (well not in the modern sense anyway) but the saying from the bible 'What you sow so shall you reap' springs to mind. We all to one extent or another caused this and now we have to pay dearly for it. Radical change or not that is the bottom line bitter pill we have to swallow for which there is no alternative.



littleredrooster said:


> Would be nice to think they could all join up in a common cause, but somehow
> shades of the republican resistance in the civil war come to mind.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

nigele2 said:


> Yup. For most it is jobs, homes, food to eat, justice for all and hope. Not very much to ask for


OK, thank you. Now I know what the 'end game' is I can tell you - it will fail without a shadow of doubt. It is not worth the effort of trying to achieve it. Give up now and find a more worthwhile goal. You are wasting your time.


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

mrypg9;565591won't listen and there is no other way of expressing democratic opinion.
But that is not the case in Spain when said:


> People are supporting PP because the socialists have let us down. It certianly has failed the working class, just it has failed to protect the middle class who are now being squeezed. Why does it surprise you that most are now looking the other way.
> I don't feel that the street protests represent only the left, yes some political parties have infiltrated, but all in all, there are many PP voters that are just as, if no more, outraged . You are wrong to assume that they don't express the views of the majority.
> 
> I think they do.


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## littleredrooster (Aug 3, 2008)

Sonrisa said:


> People are supporting PP because the socialists have let us down. It certianly has failed the working class, just it has failed to protect the middle class who are now being squeezed. Why does it surprise you that most are now looking the other way.
> I don't feel that the street protests represent only the left, yes some political parties have infiltrated, but all in all, there are many PP voters that are just as, if no more, outraged . You are wrong to assume that they don't express the views of the majority.
> 
> I think they do.


Very true, but unfortunately when it comes to the crunch, another reason why its unlikely that the various factions will ever get their act together in a single-minded, purposeful and united way.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

jimenato said:


> OK, thank you. Now I know what the 'end game' is I can tell you - it will fail without a shadow of doubt. It is not worth the effort of trying to achieve it. Give up now and find a more worthwhile goal. You are wasting your time.


What you say might be true but I cannot sit on my rear while a 60+ year old woman prostitutes herself to eat. I have to sleep at night.

If there were any plausible alternatives I'd listen but I hear none.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

littleredrooster said:


> Very true, but unfortunately when it comes to the crunch, another reason why its unlikely that the various factions will ever get their act together in a single-minded, purposeful and united way.


But does that matter? The current system equally has no single-minded, purposeful and united way. Yet it exists!!!

Consider for example that you live in a rural area and the farmer has decided to use human excrement to boost crop yields (it does happen). After just two years children are contracting strange deceases, the fish in the local river are dying in contaminated waters, old people who drink water from the tap are prematurely dying.

Of course you cannot complain because you have not got a detailed plan of how the farmer can boost his yield if he does not use human excrement. The farmer points out that his yields are far higher and this has meant he now can send his daughter to a private school, holiday in the maldives and not the Costa del Sol, and replace his 4by4 every other year.

But the farmer assures you that if you give him 5 years (more illness, more deaths, more contamination) he believes he can reduce the use of human excrement by 5% a year. By 2044 all will be well


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Sonrisa said:


> People are supporting PP because the socialists have let us down. It certianly has failed the working class, just it has failed to protect the middle class who are now being squeezed. Why does it surprise you that most are now looking the other way.
> I don't feel that the street protests represent only the left, yes some political parties have infiltrated, but all in all, there are many PP voters that are just as, if no more, outraged . You are wrong to assume that they don't express the views of the majority.
> 
> I think they do.


Yes, the PSOE has certainly failed the working class but there is not such a great swing to the right as the election results would indicate.


In the May elections the PP got 37.5% of the vote.
The PSOE and IU (Inited Left) together got 34% of the vote.
The turnout was lower than usual as socialists abstained rather than vote for the PP.

There are now more similarities between the main parties than differences. They both follow the dictates of Germany and the IMF and put the interests of the banks and international finance ahead of the interests of the electorate.


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## MaidenScotland (Jun 6, 2009)

nigele2 said:


> But does that matter? The current system equally has no single-minded, purposeful and united way. Yet it exists!!!
> 
> Consider for example that you live in a rural area and the farmer has decided to use human excrement to boost crop yields (it does happen). After just two years children are contracting strange deceases, the fish in the local river are dying in contaminated waters, old people who drink water from the tap are prematurely dying.
> 
> ...




30 years ago I lived in a village outside Oundle and the night soil man still made a daily collection and the collection was given to a local farmer who used to spread it on his fields now I don´t know if he treated it first or not.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

MaidenScotland said:


> 30 years ago I lived in a village outside Oundle and the night soil man still made a daily collection and the collection was given to a local farmer who used to spread it on his fields now I don´t know if he treated it first or not.


 Yeah we had it used near us (treated of course ). It stank upon first delivery but the farmer was limited to using it in remote spots. It was closely monitored by all and sundry. Became quite a tourist attraction in the early days.

The way this article is written makes me smile. For anyone interested in pooh:

'Smear agricultural land with human poo' ? The Register 

Not inferring that you in particular Maiden have an interest in pooh of course 

:focus:


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

nigele2 said:


> Yeah we had it used near us (treated of course ). It stank upon first delivery but the farmer was limited to using it in remote spots. It was closely monitored by all and sundry. Became quite a tourist attraction in the early days.
> 
> The way this article is written makes me smile. For anyone interested in pooh:
> 
> ...


I love Pooh

not poo though


see my sig


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