# Is it a good idea to move back to SA??



## blue_bull_uk

Hi guys,

I'm thinking of moving back to SA after I finish my wildlife guiding course. But, the problem is although I love the country I was born in I know that it isn't the safest place in the world. My girlfriend has never been to SA and thanks to the English media she is worried that the moment she turns her back she is going to be mugged or killed. Although I know it isn't quite that bad (at least not everywhere) I wanted to find out from people living in SA if they think its a good idea to move back or will I want to pack up and leave. I also have a baby girl on the way (our first child) and worry for her safety and obviously everything else that comes with children education, health etc. So tell me what you think on all things SA.

Thanks

Wade


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## pegleg

Hello Wade. Read the thread, "Why not the truth" and you will get your answers to ALL your questions. Its true!


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## Daxk

Wade, I dont think you will be slaughtered when you get off the Plane, as I've said elsewhere you could spend 50 years there and not be exposed to violent crime.
On the other hand if you do experience it.it's pretty life changing.

as a game Guide/Game ranger you will probably be away from where most of the Trouble hits but its still no guarantee.

Google Dr Paul Meyer, he was a vet on a game farm at Gravelotte, shot in front of his wife on the 16th Feb,, Google farmers murdered SA,

Anyway ,apart from the crime, 
lets see what else awaits, if you are going to be Game ranging,its likely to be in a malarial area, and you cant give kids under two Anti malarial Phrophylaxis.


XR Resistant TB has raised its head again so the nannie has to be checked but you cant check her for AIDS, and you have to make sure bambino does'nt touch anyone elses Bloody Nose or scraped knees,just in case,

The South Africa where we as kids used to duck off into the veld straight after School is gone,
Check out the rape Stats, especially Child rape stats, then think about whats going to happen when your daughter gets old enough to want to go out and meet her friends at the mall or go to party and come home late at night.

Then think about going to SA earning Sterling and wanting to leave and earning Rands.

Your Choice Wade, go or dont go, does not affect me one little bit.
But if I won the Euro millions, I still would not raise my daughter in SA.


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## pegleg

Daxk said:


> Wade, I dont think you will be slaughtered when you get off the Plane, as I've said elsewhere you could spend 50 years there and not be exposed to violent crime.
> On the other hand if you do experience it.it's pretty life changing.
> 
> as a game Guide/Game ranger you will probably be away from where most of the Trouble hits but its still no guarantee.
> 
> Google Dr Paul Meyer, he was a vet on a game farm at Gravelotte, shot in front of his wife on the 16th Feb,, Google farmers murdered SA,
> 
> Anyway ,apart from the crime,
> lets see what else awaits, if you are going to be Game ranging,its likely to be in a malarial area, and you cant give kids under two Anti malarial Phrophylaxis.
> 
> 
> XR Resistant TB has raised its head again so the nannie has to be checked but you cant check her for AIDS, and you have to make sure bambino does'nt touch anyone elses Bloody Nose or scraped knees,just in case,
> 
> The South Africa where we as kids used to duck off into the veld straight after School is gone,
> Check out the rape Stats, especially Child rape stats, then think about whats going to happen when your daughter gets old enough to want to go out and meet her friends at the mall or go to party and come home late at night.
> 
> Then think about going to SA earning Sterling and wanting to leave and earning Rands.
> 
> Your Choice Wade, go or dont go, does not affect me one little bit.
> But if I won the Euro millions, I still would not raise my daughter in SA.


I only live 50km away from where that farmer got shot and our news paper doesnt pull punches, but writes it as it is( for the moment). All the above is true.


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## anirac

My friend's husband was killed this weekend. She is 7 months pregnant with their first child. They lived in one of the "safest" estates in the city. They dug a tunnel underneath the electrified fencing. 
I simply cannot see how things are going to change soon.
Stay were you are is my advice - or take your chances, like everyone else.


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## Halo

SA is finished for the foreseeable future..... Plenty of tribal conflict to come. Its best just not to be there when there are so many other fantastic places around the world to live in.


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## DannyBoy

*Great Idea*

I think it's a pretty good idea to return.

This article would tend to agree with that statement -

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Burgled nine times this year!
By Nondumiso Mbuyazi

While many South Africans have been victims of crime at some point in
their lives, not many can say they have been burgled nine times in less
than six months.

With people complaining about the high level of crime, a frustrated
Durban man has more reason than most to feel hard done by: his house has
been burgled nine times since the beginning of the year. To add insult
to injury, Chad Delport, 36, of Glenwood, said nobody had been arrested,
although he had reported all the incidents.

The fed-up businessman said thugs first broke into his house in January.
The latest burglary took place on May 23.

Delport said the burglars had stolen everything, from his laptop,
cellphone, camera, home theatre system, lawnmower and jewellery. "They
took all the tools I use for my business and all my clothes. I have to
continually replace all the things that have been stolen, and that means
I'm working at a loss," he said.

Delport said the criminals were using the vacant land adjacent to his
house to gain entry to his property.

"They climb over the fence and do as they please. They even come in
during broad daylight, as some of my neighbours have seen them," he said.

He recently installed sensors at the back of his kitchen door. "The
sensors cost a fortune, but I'm doing everything possible to ensure
these guys stay away from my home," he said, adding that he might put up
an electric fence.

Delport had been abroad for 15 years. He moved back to this country four
years ago to start his business.

"Of all the countries that I have lived in, I have never experienced
anything like this. I moved back to the country because my father was
sick, and I just missed the country. I wanted to be patriotic and
contribute towards bettering the country, and as a businessman I wanted
to offer job opportunities to people who were unemployed. And this is
the thanks I get," said an incensed Delport.

He said he had reported all the incidents to the police, but it all
seemed to be in vain.

Police spokesperson Inspector Michael Read said they were aware of all
the cases, adding they were still investigating. Read said Delport
should take necessary precautions to ensure his home was not a target
for criminals.

"Police will also be doing regular patrols around that area to ensure
that such incidents are a thing of the past. We are also trying to trace
the owner of the vacant land to ask him to fence it off," said Read.

* *This article was originally published on page 7 of **Daily News*
<http://www.dailynews.co.za/>* on June 25, 2009 *


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## Cadworks

*Crime and the economic cost*



anirac said:


> My friend's husband was killed this weekend. She is 7 months pregnant with their first child. They lived in one of the "safest" estates in the city. They dug a tunnel underneath the electrified fencing.
> I simply cannot see how things are going to change soon.
> Stay were you are is my advice - or take your chances, like everyone else.


I am an expat living in the USA, and I am amazed at the things I read about SA. i.e. over 3500 farmers murdered etc. Why is it that Africa cannot learn from history? The Congo has been at war for over 40 years since the Belgians left. Zimbabwe has been killing farmers for years, and now they are starving, and the economy has collapsed. Why would this not happen in SA if they continue to allow the same sort of deterioration? Investors will pull their money out, companies will leave. Food will become scarce etc. SA is not special, if the people in power do what the rest of Africa is doing it is just a matter of time.The rule of law applies everywhere. The people who will suffer the most will be the ones committing the crimes and their families, and this will not be easy to fix once money/farmers/skills leave the country.

I am also amazed at the comment by the police that he should make sure his home is not a target! Is this not the responsibility of the police force?


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## GoldDragonFly

No, don't move back to SA. You're better off where you are now.


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## padmanab

better to stay where one is rather than get killed


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## arnaud

If you are in UK so yes, coming back to SA is a good option as the UK becomes slowly but surely a Third World country. No hope here.


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## Daxk

Bit of a strange comment from Arnaud, leave a Country that is becoming a Third World Country to a place that already is a Third World Country??


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## zambezi.king

Stay where you are!! I am also in the conservation field and have started the visa process for Australia. Working in the bush means that you will be away from home a lot, leaving the wife and daughter home alone. You will be in arural area with police far away (not that being close helps they still take forever to arrive - if ever!) Mark my words after 2010 the paw-paw is going to hit the fan.

Lastly conservation/wildlife/ranger work does not keep the wolf from the door. A ranger (level 1) only earns about R4000/mth... a level 2 about R5500 and for a trainee management couple you will be lucky to get R10 - 15 000, but these are hard to get as there are many experienced people ahead of you in the queue. When you think that DECENT schooling can cost R1000/mth, GOOD medical is a necessity @ R3500/mth and groceries @ R 3000/mth then you have all the other expenses petrol (R7/L), insurance, etc, etc, etc...

But don't worry you won't even get a job anyway as they are mostly B.E.E reserved. Furthermore you will have to get certified as a field guide (I have a degree and still had to do so) in each biome you want to work in. So if you have certification in the Waterberg you can only take a job in that biome... do you have the time and money to go for 5-6 different certifications. Also if you want to collect guests from the airport or anywhere you have to have a PDP (proffessional driving permit) and you might also have to register and qualify as a tour guide as well (same principle applies as field guide except not biome linked but province linked... say you collect clients at airport and have to drive through 3 provinces to get to base you then have to be certified as a tour guide for each province!)

I will probably be slated for this but hey the truth is sometimes hard to bare. DO NOT WASTE YOUR LIFE/TIME/MONEY/SANITY!


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## Halo

zambezi.king said:


> I will probably be slated for this but hey the truth is sometimes hard to bare. DO NOT WASTE YOUR LIFE/TIME/MONEY/SANITY!


Only by the ignorant and misguided...........


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## tmash

If the country is so bad why is it that people leave for few years and then come back to RSA ?.This shows that RSA is one of the greatest countries in the world and we don't have to doubt that.The problem with all this fear ad paranoia being placed on young people to migrate is that in most places they end up in eg UK , its worse than RSA. I have seen thousands of young people entering the UK with two year visa and overstaying ending up worse off than in their own country. My advice is , go back to your home if you feel that that's where your soul is linked to. Crime in RSA , affects everyone and this is just a transition period which at some point will end.

Sponsor an HIV orphan through WC2010.


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## Halo

tmash said:


> If the country is so bad why is it that people leave for few years and then come back to RSA ?.This shows that RSA is one of the greatest countries in the world and we don't have to doubt that.The problem with all this fear ad paranoia being placed on young people to migrate is that in most places they end up in eg UK , its worse than RSA. I have seen thousands of young people entering the UK with two year visa and overstaying ending up worse off than in their own country. My advice is , go back to your home if you feel that that's where your soul is linked to. Crime in RSA , affects everyone and this is just a transition period which at some point will end.
> 
> Sponsor an HIV orphan through WC2010.


Take your pick :

1. Their Visa runs out
2. They miss their family
3. They don't get the culture and miss memories that will never return
4. Pure ignorance


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## Daxk

TMash, interesting points.
you also need to throw in where those who go and return are in their lifecycle
as well as why they left in the first place.
If the plan was to go overseas, see a bit of he world, make some foreign exchange and expand the CV, then either 2 years when the Permit runs out or roughly 7 years down the road with young kids, they start thinking about returning with memories of how they grew up, Family, grandprents for the kids etc...

If they leave in their thirties or forties, thats it unless and they cannot assimilate
in their New Country,which happens to a few who will return, and if they or family
have been exposed to Violent crime,they and their skills are lost to SA forever.
Thats exactly where the skills drain has been, mid life graduated Professionals.

Your saying that crime will improve, that its only a cycle in a developing Country
does not gel with the level of gratuitous violence done AFTER the robbery has happened.
will it change? if its poverty related, there are 17 million unemployed of whom a very large proportion are young and unemployable.
The Govt have chosen to spend money on a media spectacle that will lasy 6 months
and take billions to maintain rather than on job creation r education.Education is the key, but the level od educator is way below standard so first they have to convince people to become teachers who are very badly paid, train them and then train the youth who mostly aren't born yet, to start businesses that will employ them, all the while there are roughly 10 million unemployed youths roaming the Countryside looking for some money to buy some sharp clothes and booze with.
so you are loking at at least three generations before you have a hope of a crime level drop.

In the meantime you are suggesting people should just come back and live with that risk to their children?


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## tmash

Daxk said:


> TMash, interesting points.
> you also need to throw in where those who go and return are in their lifecycle
> as well as why they left in the first place.
> If the plan was to go overseas, see a bit of he world, make some foreign exchange and expand the CV, then either 2 years when the Permit runs out or roughly 7 years down the road with young kids, they start thinking about returning with memories of how they grew up, Family, grandprents for the kids etc...
> 
> If they leave in their thirties or forties, thats it unless and they cannot assimilate
> in their New Country,which happens to a few who will return, and if they or family
> have been exposed to Violent crime,they and their skills are lost to SA forever.
> Thats exactly where the skills drain has been, mid life graduated Professionals.
> 
> Your saying that crime will improve, that its only a cycle in a developing Country
> does not gel with the level of gratuitous violence done AFTER the robbery has happened.
> will it change? if its poverty related, there are 17 million unemployed of whom a very large proportion are young and unemployable.
> The Govt have chosen to spend money on a media spectacle that will lasy 6 months
> and take billions to maintain rather than on job creation r education.Education is the key, but the level od educator is way below standard so first they have to convince people to become teachers who are very badly paid, train them and then train the youth who mostly aren't born yet, to start businesses that will employ them, all the while there are roughly 10 million unemployed youths roaming the Countryside looking for some money to buy some sharp clothes and booze with.
> so you are loking at at least three generations before you have a hope of a crime level drop.
> 
> In the meantime you are suggesting people should just come back and live with that risk to their children?


I simple understand your points and i agree with you. If you are a parent and you are concerned with your children's future , it is sensible to migrate to another country to secure their future or not to return. However it all goes down to what exactly do you want their outcome to be and my emphasis in my first post was on preparing young people well in term of education which will open doors to better migration route. It must be well planned.Something which has caused me great concern when i travel and meet some young SAFAS in Europe.

From my own point of view , the challenges faced by South Africans can be overcome and if you stick together , the better.It is true that most young people are not working and they lack skills and that is the reason why you must stay.They need you and without you there is no change. Most crime is done purely due to poverty and incompetent police force. However , instead of mourning about the system , you can do something about it.I am sure there is a way.

I have noticed something great about South Africa. They are young people who have not decided to leave RSA and they r doing well. The ones i know who did not leave have created extremely innovative companies which are offering services worldwide from RSA and these are great examples which shows that you can flourish better at home. The other group of young people i know who left for Europe are not in great jobs , and if they are in , its not that great and this is the majority.

Finally , i want to ask you a question:
Have you ever visited south African townships like Soweto , khayelitsha etc.?
If you haven't please give it a try.Your eyes will be open and you will break barriers which have existed in minds of your communities for centuries.
I tell you if you visit these places, your life will change and you will begin to understand why your country need you more than our own selfish motives.

tmash.

Support HIV orphanages in RSA through WC2010 T-shirts.


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## Daxk

TMash, in reverse order, I have worked in Locations such as soweto and thembisa and have probably visited far more than you.(because it seems I am a lot older than you)
I have taught Adult literacy Courses in Ivory Park at night.

Unfortunately, what you are asking for is what people pay taxes for,it is actually the role of te Government to uplift its people, to educate them, to alleviate poverty through Job Creation, to create infrastructure iro of Health,water,Electricity and Public transport.
and in exactly the same way as the Govt of SA (and your former Country) its expected that "someone else" should solve the problems.
its "someone else who should stand together and help.
Under normal Democracy, a Govt that fails to address its peoples problems is voted out.
Not in SA and not in most other African Countries.
So calling for Unity when its own Govt does not listen to its people is just a waste of time.

I am always amused at how many "new" people constantly call on Saffa expats to come "Home" and fix things and if you dont or criticise then you are immediately racist and hate the Country.
Africa and now SA have had their hand out to long.


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## Daxk

" tell you if you visit these places, your life will change and you will begin to understand why your country need you more than our own selfish motives."

what are my "selfish"motives?


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## arnaud

Daxk said:


> TMash, in reverse order, I have worked in Locations such as soweto and thembisa and have probably visited far more than you.(because it seems I am a lot older than you)
> I have taught Adult literacy Courses in Ivory Park at night.
> 
> Unfortunately, what you are asking for is what people pay taxes for,it is actually the role of te Government to uplift its people, to educate them, to alleviate poverty through Job Creation, to create infrastructure iro of Health,water,Electricity and Public transport.
> and in exactly the same way as the Govt of SA (and your former Country) its expected that "someone else" should solve the problems.
> its "someone else who should stand together and help.
> Under normal Democracy, a Govt that fails to address its peoples problems is voted out.
> Not in SA and not in most other African Countries.
> So calling for Unity when its own Govt does not listen to its people is just a waste of time.
> 
> I am always amused at how many "new" people constantly call on Saffa expats to come "Home" and fix things and if you dont or criticise then you are immediately racist and hate the Country.
> Africa and now SA have had their hand out to long.


Daxk, believe me, South Africa has a brighter future than most countries in Europe.
Please take a look at the national Debt for Ireland, Estonia, France, UK...
Do you still believe the situation is still sustainable ?


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## Halo

arnaud said:


> Daxk, believe me, South Africa has a brighter future than most countries in Europe.
> Please take a look at the national Debt for Ireland, Estonia, France, UK...
> Do you still believe the situation is still sustainable ?


Can you please substantiate your claims.... 

(Trust me - The moon is made of cheese........ Mugabe is a great ruler......... Jeffrey Dahmer loved animals.)


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## arnaud

Halo said:


> Can you please substantiate your claims....
> 
> (Trust me - The moon is made of cheese........ Mugabe is a great ruler......... Jeffrey Dahmer loved animals.)



https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2186rank.html
Countries' Debt Woes Pose Risk to Upturn - Business Exchange
Europe Stocks Fall on Sovereign Debt Concern; Greek Banks Slump - Bloomberg.com
UK debt crisis worsens as tax receipts plunge | Business | The Guardian


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## Halo

arnaud said:


> https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2186rank.html
> Countries' Debt Woes Pose Risk to Upturn - Business Exchange
> Europe Stocks Fall on Sovereign Debt Concern; Greek Banks Slump - Bloomberg.com
> UK debt crisis worsens as tax receipts plunge | Business | The Guardian


Well done - You've posted some news articles.... well done, you've learned how to use google. - We can all do that but its another thing to apply some in-depth long term analysis.... The why, the how and the what will be.... Here is another link for you.

Rand Posts Biggest Weekly Decline Since July as Deficit Soars - Bloomberg.com
(Deeper in Debt

South Africa’s fiscal shortfall will surge to 7.6 percent of gross domestic product in the year through March 2010, the highest since at least 1961 and worse than the 3.8 percent forecast in February, Gordhan said this week. That will force the state to boost borrowing more than threefold to 284.5 billion rand ($36.6 billion), or 11.8 percent of GDP, from the previous fiscal year, according to the mid-term budget. )

South Africa may be a haven but I'm afraid you may have to wait until 2200. :ranger:


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## arnaud

Halo said:


> Well done - You've posted some news articles.... well done, you've learned how to use google. - We can all do that but its another thing to apply some in-depth long term analysis.... The why, the how and the what will be.... Here is another link for you.
> 
> Rand Posts Biggest Weekly Decline Since July as Deficit Soars - Bloomberg.com
> (Deeper in Debt
> 
> South Africa’s fiscal shortfall will surge to 7.6 percent of gross domestic product in the year through March 2010, the highest since at least 1961 and worse than the 3.8 percent forecast in February, Gordhan said this week. That will force the state to boost borrowing more than threefold to 284.5 billion rand ($36.6 billion), or 11.8 percent of GDP, from the previous fiscal year, according to the mid-term budget. )
> 
> South Africa may be a haven but I'm afraid you may have to wait until 2200. :ranger:


So the World is doomed


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## Halo

arnaud said:


> So the World is doomed


Not at all..... it ebbs and flows like its done for thousands of years.... Its just that if you have to pick a country to bring up your kids..... SA would most certainly not be in your top 20.


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## Daxk

Arnaud, I can only speak for Ireland and South Africa as I chose to move from one to the other.

And as I moved for the direct safety of my then 5 yo Duaghter and my wife lets look at what the future holds as a comparison on living in a barter society if the Worlds Currencies collapse.

rather than predict inflation lets look at some issues at todays data.
(Figures are not totally accurate for SA but based on memory, Ireland they are very accurate)

population SA 48 million Ireland 4.7 Million.

Female life expectancy: SA 38 Ireland 76

Unemployment: SA 26% (but only 13 million pay tax) Ire 11% (but 3.1 million pay tax)
Literacy and education rate SA 43% Ire 97%
Cost of Good quality Education: SA School 1 million over a 12 year period for School
1 million over a 4 year period for Varsity
Ireland: Free

ability to grow food and feed its population :SA is a net importer of Food, Ireland 140%
(40% over production)

Electricity: SA has Eskom but if there is no Industry it will have spare capacity.

Ireland:Wind and Sea Farms as well as vast quantities of Peat Bog that burns,

Health Service?
Govt Hospital SA vs Govt Hospital Ireland?
Public Transport?
Welfare of the aged?

Aids rate SA 26%?(closer to 33% if Anti-Natal Figures are used)
Ireland less than 1% estimated 114 actual people infected,

Lets look at a doomsday scenario for SA.

If the EC economies you predict collapse so does SA's markets for its minerals.

SA has infrastructure problems in Electricity, Water, Sanitation as well as public Transport and health.

It has large agricultural potential but it would take 3 years to recover it and utilising the unemployed turn it into Food production.
That means a mass starvation rate and the possibility of civil unrest.
it also raises the possibility of Invasion fropm other starving Countries around it.

SA has no Oil production, its Petrol from Coal process is good but expensive, however its Industrial and public transport system runs on diesel which it can no longer import if no-one is buying its minerals.

Please note I have purposefully not raised the crime factor.
because you cannot actually compare Ireland vs SA regarding Violent crime without it looking stupid..


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## mman

Just a quick correction to your stats...

female life expectancy: S.A - 49 Ireland 81 

List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Daxk

Thanks, also switched Irish Male and Female around. Irish Males 76.9 Females 81.6% as at Jan 2009.
I would normally have agreed with Arnaud about riding out a depression (which is were I think it it will head) in a warm (less heating) Fertile, Cuontry.
The problem lies in education.
in less educated Countries the have nots take from the haves.


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## tmash

Daxk said:


> " tell you if you visit these places, your life will change and you will begin to understand why your country need you more than our own selfish motives."
> 
> what are my "selfish"motives?


Sorry Daxk, did not mean any offense and i was just saying this in general and i might have used an incorrect word but i hope you understood my point.

tmash.


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## Daxk

TMash
I expect that you were reffering to people being altruistic and concentrating their efforts and personal resources to uplift the previously dis-advantaged?
To share in a spirit of "Ubuntu" and togetherness??
is that what you were saying?


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## tmash

Yes that's what i meant.


Thanks.


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## Daxk

Then the guys standing at the head of the queue should be thse who have benefitted from Affirmative action as well as BEE (Black Economic Empowerment for hereaders not in SA)
dont you think?

Secondly,the Billions spent on Soccer Stadia, the Gautrain which only middle income lus can afford, and the Arms deal as well as all the Street Re-naming, not tomention ONLY the Lunch expenses of the various Govt Departments would have actually solved the Education crisis as well as the state of the Health and Justice systems (regarding Prisons)

In other words, TMash, those in power should set an example otherwise why should minorities such as I do it all?


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## mman

Daxk said:


> Billions spent on Soccer Stadia, the Gautrain


I think these are bad examples, both are needed if the country is to host the 2010 world cup. And even the Gautrain is needed if we werent hosting the 2010 cup, as we all know the condition of transport in the country.

I think better examples would of been the personal spending of government officals on "silly" items such as cars, houses, jewelry etc... Im not trying to say that they shouldnt live comfortably, all i am saying is that they are mocking the poor when they buy a house worth R10 mil when a R2 mil house would do. Or a car for R1 mil when a R100 000 one would do. Officals are obviously being over paid based on the earnings of masses!


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## Daxk

How can they be bad examples?
the Stadiums have cost 12.1 Billion Rand, for 32 games over 6 months???
They are praying for 450,000 visitors?? 75 % of SA's existing Tourists and International visitors currently come from other African Countries, and therefore only a small % from Europe or USA etc...
to comply with FIFA's requirements, they have had to build new stadiums next to existing ones in durban and Cape Towen, all the Stadiums need to be maintained afterwards by Municipalities who are already virtually bankrpt.
Only Cape Town's Greenpoint Stadium has a tenant for afterwards, none of te others have and the local Clubs cannot afford the rentals, so....
Expensive white elephants.

Gautrain will cost how much for a ticket from Sandton to Pretoria??
The subsidised tickets will be ZAR100.
Thats a days wages for a very large proportion of the workers.
a taxi currently costs ZAR60

yes, the construction of the stadia and road repair and gautrain created employment.
Until they are built.
The hawkers are not allowed to sell near to the Stadia, so apart from Security Guards
and Tour Guides , there is no new sustainable employment after the WC2010.

TMash is advertising WC2010 Team T-shirts in support of AIDS orphans.
How much of that sale goes to Orphans and how much to FIFA and the Company selling them?
(I see its a USA Company)

Sorry MMan, The SA Govt wanted to prove that Afro-pessimism was misplaced.
The People of SA will be paying for that for a very long time.
It will be a spectacle but an expensive one.


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## Daxk

If they were concerned about the state of transport then a light rail system would have cost less than Gautrain and been more usable by those who have no Public transport
But the Taxi Industry dont like that...


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## mman

Ok so first of all the gautrain is certainly aimed at the middle class person. The aim is to get the people who are driving to work to use the gautrain system instead to relieve the terrible traffic jams in Jhb. 50c to 60c toll payable for each kilometre from October next year means toll charges between Johannesburg and Tshwane for a daily commuter will run at around R1 000 a month. This backs up the fact they are trying to stop people from using cars in inner city.

Ok so now your cost stats: R12 to travel between Sandton and Rhodesfield stations, around R20 between Johannesburg and Tshwane, and R80 between OR Tambo International Airport and Sandton stations. NOT R100 , and please not MOST people will probaly use the R12 - R20 option as they not going to be traveling from the airport to work everyday!

R80 is still cheap. The Heathrow (airport) express in London costs R225

R800 a month if you’re a regular user is an estimate, however this is soooo much cheaper than if you were driving if you take the toll, fuel and ware and tare. Not to mention as it would be much quicker (travel speeds 180km per hour), safer and less stressfull!

I have always been very critising of the ANC but this is one of the best projects to date.


Now to your stadium claim - The world cup is expected to generate R21 bil into the economy, generating an estimated 160 000 jobs. Thats the stadiums paid for... The real income will not come immediately. *IF* (and notice how i say "if") the world cup is a sucess it will generate income etc over the future. Changing the way the world views both South Africa and Africa. 

Whether the world cup is a sucess only time will tell, i have my doubts but im trying to stay positive...


----------



## mman

Daxk said:


> for 32 games over 6 months???


Oh and im not quite sure what you mean by this? The tournament lasts 1 month from 11 June 2010 - 11 July 2010 , 32 *TEAMS* are involved for a total of 64 matches ...


----------



## mman

Please note also the Gautrain is now backed up with the BRT bus system, Please watch the video at the top of this link Carte Blanche > M-Net please watch part 2 as well ... Its carte blanche and we all know how much they criticise...


----------



## Daxk

Thank you for being subjective.

Your Commuter arrives at the station, parks his car,(as there is no public transport to get to the station) there is a cost.(and there is a Security Cost for whomever is running the parking area)

he travels to Sandton, his office is not in Sandton but in the environs of Sandton, how does he get to Illovo/Rosebank/Randburg/Woodmead/Rivonia/Paulshof?
So there is a cost as there is no Public transport.

Scenario 2:
same commuter travels on to Pretoria (its not Tswane yet) how does he get to his office?
Its in Centurion or a number of other Office parks?

I agree with you (and them) that the Ben Schoeman is unsustainable, it was 60,000 cars an hour when I left, the Jukskei interchange was an hour minimum, two hours when I was there recently.
now lets say they are able to halve the amount of cars per hour with the Gautrain..

where are they going to park them? securely?

and if they dont halve the mount of cars between 7am and 10 am on that stretch, will you save 10 minutes? 15 minutes of your journey?

They are NOT trying to stop cars in the inner city, Jhbg Central is virtually deserted.

They are tring to stop cars entering the Jukskei/Gilloolys Interchanges, thats where the bottle necks are.

When exactly will the Light train system be in operation and how much will it cost?
and how many areas will it cover?
please refer to my question about parking.

Now, the Stadia.

where will the 21 Billion be generated from?
and when?

Initially it was 4 million tourist, that shrank to 1 million now its 450,000 that they hope for.
They have 500,000 tickets booked, but not paid for.

Thats not 500,000 tourists that tourists who are booking to be in line if there Country gets up there, and then they will be watching 4 or 5 games.
its an expensive flight, 

FIFA get all the revenue from the WC2010 afaik(apart rom a small bit)
So where is the 21 Billion coming from?
and leading from that, 160k jobs?

My apologies, it was a typing error, meant 6 weeks as there will be training and acclimatisng.
and I do think South Africans will go out of their way to make it a success, a superb showcase.
something to be proud of.
But it is going to be a financial nightmare that will cripple SA.

lets take another scenario.
Lets take the 25 Billion that the whole excercise is actually going to cost, lets throw in the arms deal as well.
lets say they stuck all of that into job creation via conscription and labour battalions, where unemployed people are paid to work.
you use that to repair infrastructure, rehabilitate farmland that produces cheaper food that surplus can also be exported,,

Your construction Companies that built stadia build prisons as the ones we have are 160% overcrowded, 
Teachers and Nurses training Colleges, centralised schools with state of the art equipment, a teaching channel on SABC TV that beams learning channels into every rural school that is equipped with a TV etc...

They also rebuild Hospitals, as well as Sub economic homes and get people out of shacks, and a transport system that moves ALL of the people.
Cheaply.

But most of all, the Govt subsidises and pays people to learn, if you do x you get y, if you study and pass you get y+1
if you also help and mentor 2 others you get y+2 etc.

That might just rebuild the miracle of the rainbow nation enough to make people want to come and see it as well as the wild animals an a flat topped mountain.
Because 75% of SA potential Euro Tourist population are the ones who are afraid of crime.

The Govt have spent SA's future on a gesture that will last 1 months worth of tv.
Thats expensive advertising.


----------



## Daxk

Yes, MMan,thats not the Gautrain target market,again,103 Buses, in JHBG now, replacing Putco Buses, Not sour grapes, bud, how many more BLT/RTS could have been on the roads with Gautrains money?
I dont want Apartheid back by any means, but pre-94 there were buses running through all Jhbgs suburbs and Locations.
Mostly on time and efficiently.


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## mman

Daxk said:


> please refer to my question about parking.


Ok so this could probably go on for ages, so im going to answer just this question here. From my understaning i believe that some of the money allocated to the gautrain will also be for its own personally bus service. Where this bus service is to operate i cannot comment. I suppose the most ideal situation is for the people to leave the cars at home and catch a bus just down the road,directly to the station? This is probaly unlikely and still many years away however! 

Oh and also your comment about pre - 94 ... Dont forget about the black/white buses, they didnt have to cater such a good service for a much larger population than they do now!


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## Daxk

hey MMan, agree we can go around in square circles.

pre 1994 there was only three million less "Black"population and about 852,000 more white.
Putco Buses and Municipal buses delivered all to work every day.
The problem with the Black buses however was that the locations were far away due to the Politics of the day which meant that traveling time was far greater.
Te taxi Industry undertook a series of Murders of drivers, Black Commuters boycotted the buses and burnt them, the new Democratic Govt cut the subsidies etc etc...
SA had a very good working Public transport system for all races pre 94.
when the trains were de-politicised by Race, the bloodshed between the Zulu Political Party and the ANC in 93 spread to the trains , a lot of people stopped using them.

For TMash, I travelled on "Black" Buses more than once(In fact I travelled through a lot of Africa in Buses, only once was there problems, in Evaton, when they were necklacing people and the passengers hid me under all their luggage under a seat when the "Comrades" were searching the buses for ImPimpi")


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## John James Cilliers

*Is it a good idea to move back to South-Africa*

No!!!!

No!!!!

No!!!!


----------



## aricam

Very sad news for you. Say bye-bye to this gorgeous country. 
Law is a myth here, and the thousands of mini-bus taxi-drivers country-wide are above any restraint whatsoever.
Police and criminals are pretty much the same deal--except that criminals are less-easily identified by wearing uniforms.
Litter and decay...the humble plastic bag is our new national flower because every tree has them fluttering about.
Our kids can't find work despite being university-educated because of B.E.E. and are forced to leave the country in order to find job opportunities.
In a country of 50 million, only 17 million are financially active--with a mere 5.5 million paying taxes and keeping things running, to some degree at least.
The national broadcaster, the electricity supply commision, police service, home affairs...you name it--is run into the ground.
There is also the tribal friction to consider.
Maybe things shall settle here in another generation...I really do hope so.


----------



## John James Cilliers

aricam said:


> Very sad news for you. Say bye-bye to this gorgeous country.
> Law is a myth here, and the thousands of mini-bus taxi-drivers country-wide are above any restraint whatsoever.
> Police and criminals are pretty much the same deal--except that criminals are less-easily identified by wearing uniforms.
> Litter and decay...the humble plastic bag is our new national flower because every tree has them fluttering about.
> Our kids can't find work despite being university-educated because of B.E.E. and are forced to leave the country in order to find job opportunities.
> In a country of 50 million, only 17 million are financially active--with a mere 5.5 million paying taxes and keeping things running, to some degree at least.
> The national broadcaster, the electricity supply commision, police service, home affairs...you name it--is run into the ground.
> There is also the tribal friction to consider.
> Maybe things shall settle here in another generation...I really do hope so.



It's gone. It was not to be. It will never be again.

When your car is speeding towards a brick wall, why do you not jump out.
What is wrong with you.
You want to die.

Forget it. Move on.
Change
Never look back.

That is the only future for White South-Africans


----------



## RSA_expat_usa

How can things change if the government does NOT care ? Do you really want to live like a prisoner enclosed by walls ? Don't put your life at risk... is it really worth it?


----------



## John James Cilliers

I see a lot of South-African expats discreetly and very politically correct do not bring 
black Racism, hate born of history, past and present discrimination and black Nationalism into the South-African discussion.

All avoid the obvious.
All concentrate on crime.
All know that it is much, much more.
Stop lying.
Stop pretending.
The biggest group with the biggest gun or population dictate the future.
The biggest and strongest monkey rule.
There is always a winner and a looser.
The winner takes centre stage and the looser sulk in the dark.
Africa for black Africans and the invading elements will have to perish.

There is no hope for us humans.
We are just animals.
Liberal thinking is for the animals that find them selfs in a position of strenght and power.
We humans are driven by self interest and identity and the winner takes all.

So we lost and they won.
Get over it.
Get over it and get out.
Do not expect anything else except that the interest of Black Africa is the interest of black Africa and that do not include you.
Indians, Chinese, Japanese or any other non-white are also not black.
First all wanted to be white and now all wants to claim their blackness.
What a joke.
People are like children and the playground can be ruthless especially on those that is sensitive.

So if a thorn present you with pain, pluck it out and keep on walking.
I plucked the South-African thorn from my flesh and I walk into the future with only the memory of the pain of the thorn.
Soon that memory will fade.
The future looks great.

Jamie Cilliers


----------



## stefan

I am very very very real when i say," people who think thins in SA is ok", has no idea of what they are saying. they have no idea of what a real life is. this place is a dangerous place, but that isn't the half of it. there is no future, and that is a fact. your daughter is better of in Europe. dont bring her here, its a BAD BAD idea


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## mman

stefan said:


> they have no idea of what a real life is.


Excuse me? What a load of garbage. I have lived in 5 different countrys for 6 months or more and without a doubt can tell you S.A can offer you a real life quite easily!


----------



## Halo

mman said:


> Excuse me? What a load of garbage. I have lived in 5 different countrys for 6 months or more and without a doubt can tell you S.A can offer you a real life quite easily!


A real one perhaps ??? But a safe one?


----------



## Daxk

mman said:


> Excuse me? What a load of garbage. I have lived in 5 different countrys for 6 months or more and without a doubt can tell you S.A can offer you a real life quite easily!


MMan is quite right, you can offer your real life quite easily in SA.:clap2:


----------



## MrFrankenstein

is it a good idea?
No. Unless you don't mind living like a domestic prisoner behind high walls - and statistically rolling the dice every day and every night - where the winners get raped, murdered, tortured on a daily basis. 
I think there's around 40 or so 'home invasions' every day in SA - alongside the 80 -120 daily murders, and unknown numbers of casualties. 

Per capita, SA has more murders than the USA - which is roughly 8 times larger in population. 
That stat tells you all you need to know.


----------



## pegleg

John James Cilliers said:


> I see a lot of South-African expats discreetly and very politically correct do not bring
> black Racism, hate born of history, past and present discrimination and black Nationalism into the South-African discussion.
> 
> All avoid the obvious.
> All concentrate on crime.
> All know that it is much, much more.
> Stop lying.
> Stop pretending.
> The biggest group with the biggest gun or population dictate the future.
> The biggest and strongest monkey rule.
> There is always a winner and a looser.
> The winner takes centre stage and the looser sulk in the dark.
> Africa for black Africans and the invading elements will have to perish.
> 
> There is no hope for us humans.
> We are just animals.
> Liberal thinking is for the animals that find them selfs in a position of strenght and power.
> We humans are driven by self interest and identity and the winner takes all.
> 
> So we lost and they won.
> Get over it.
> Get over it and get out.
> Do not expect anything else except that the interest of Black Africa is the interest of black Africa and that do not include you.
> Indians, Chinese, Japanese or any other non-white are also not black.
> First all wanted to be white and now all wants to claim their blackness.
> What a joke.
> People are like children and the playground can be ruthless especially on those that is sensitive.
> 
> So if a thorn present you with pain, pluck it out and keep on walking.
> I plucked the South-African thorn from my flesh and I walk into the future with only the memory of the pain of the thorn.
> Soon that memory will fade.
> The future looks great.
> 
> Jamie Cilliers


Its easier said than done. . .Not everyone can just pack up and go, not with stricter immigration laws, health and financial requirements.

There are those that have aged parents, those with disabilities (Who are then at the mercy of the ruling power) And those that just dont cut it with regards to "Enough" skills.

Bursaries are also out of reach for the "previously" ADVANTAGED? Which means you must fork out the dough for Universities yourself - not an easy task with all the rising costs, such as the much debated ESKOM incompetence price hikes.
Then there's also the cost of immigration - in 2005/6 english testing used to cost R300, now its around R2000 per person, which brings another saying into the picture: "Nothing Sells like a rotting country".

Perserverance is the name of the game, whether you are immigrating or staying, applies both ways. :juggle:


----------



## JohnHeath

*Do What's on Your Heart*



blue_bull_uk said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm thinking of moving back to SA after I finish my wildlife guiding course. But, the problem is although I love the country I was born in I know that it isn't the safest place in the world. My girlfriend has never been to SA and thanks to the English media she is worried that the moment she turns her back she is going to be mugged or killed. Although I know it isn't quite that bad (at least not everywhere) I wanted to find out from people living in SA if they think its a good idea to move back or will I want to pack up and leave. I also have a baby girl on the way (our first child) and worry for her safety and obviously everything else that comes with children education, health etc. So tell me what you think on all things SA.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Wade


Hi, I'm sorry to be a party pooper, but I love South Africa and am staying here with my young wife and 2 kids. I have a lot of friends and family who did the "Leave South Africa" thing. They're almost all back, a lot richer, of course, but they're back. Working for lower salaries, enjoying the sunshine, braais, friends and family. 

Health-care is excellent if you can afford a good medical aid. Education is fantastic at some of the larger private or semi-private schools, or you could home-school, and add a few social activities. Property prices are about to climb. Food is still good quality at Woolworths, Pick n Pay and most Spar or Checkers Supermarkets. Some award winning restaurants and the usuals like Spur, Wimpy, Steers, Maxi's, Mc Donalds etc. have reputations to keep. (They're all opening new outlets every year) 
Why not look at statistics of smaller cities. Bloemfontein and other smaller cities and aren't targeted as much because of lower incomes and therefore have lower incidences of hijacking and armed robbery. You could even look at smaller towns where the big crime guys don't bother going to. 
A security townhouse or similar is also a good idea. I've Lived in Bloemfontein 30years of my life, it has crime but nothing like the bigger centres. What works for us is a few dogs on a small holding, burglar bars & Security gates and in 30years we've never had a break-in, or maybe it's the hand of God.
Hope you are able to find peace in making your decision, not moved by fear or blind faith but by what's in your heart to do.
Regards
John


----------



## Halo

JohnHeath said:


> Hi, I'm sorry to be a party pooper, but I love South Africa and am staying here with my young wife and 2 kids. I have a lot of friends and family who did the "Leave South Africa" thing. They're almost all back, a lot richer, of course, but they're back. Working for lower salaries, enjoying the sunshine, braais, friends and family.
> 
> Health-care is excellent if you can afford a good medical aid. Education is fantastic at some of the larger private or semi-private schools, or you could home-school, and add a few social activities. Property prices are about to climb. Food is still good quality at Woolworths, Pick n Pay and most Spar or Checkers Supermarkets. Some award winning restaurants and the usuals like Spur, Wimpy, Steers, Maxi's, Mc Donalds etc. have reputations to keep. (They're all opening new outlets every year)
> Why not look at statistics of smaller cities. Bloemfontein and other smaller cities and aren't targeted as much because of lower incomes and therefore have lower incidences of hijacking and armed robbery. You could even look at smaller towns where the big crime guys don't bother going to.
> A security townhouse or similar is also a good idea. I've Lived in Bloemfontein 30years of my life, it has crime but nothing like the bigger centres. What works for us is a few dogs on a small holding, burglar bars & Security gates and in 30years we've never had a break-in, or maybe it's the hand of God.
> Hope you are able to find peace in making your decision, not moved by fear or blind faith but by what's in your heart to do.
> Regards
> John


*For now!*

You're missing the obvious... What about in 10/20/30 years. Will your children be able to leave if they have to? I also hope those that returned came back with foreign passports or there expedition was in vain.

Think of your children as if you can't see what's slowly happing in South Africa you need to take off the rose coloured spectacles.

What if - Just imagine you do fall on hard times? How good will your medical care be or for that matter your old-aged care? What would your quality of life be then?

I'm glad your having a good time in SA - "I'm all-right Jack comes to mind"


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## zambezi.king

John,

You mention all the wonders that money can buy you in SA but you forget that as a ranger the salary he is going to ean will probably cover his medical for the family and probably nothing else. What then? 

As Halo said, what about the future. Every counrty, post colonial, has said "we'll do it better, we won't free-fall like all those others"... well the TRUTH is the free-fall is happening faster than most. Sure life is great if you have money and can protect yourself. The "Mandela effect" of holding things all together will be gone when he dies. There will be more corruption when our national coffers have been emptied and lastly think who will be in charge... it will be the Julius Malema's of our glorious youth. Will they show any Madiba majic? Will they remember how and who created the now crumbling infrastructure? 

If I was asking the question" Should I return" and I did by because of your postings I would be seriously miffed both now and in the future!


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## TEA

I live with my heart in SA and my head in the UK!! Would love to go home but know the sad truth that it would be stupid to do so. I hope that my son gets out of SA as soon as he has graduated at the end of next year. How I would love to be in my home country with the skills I can offer it, but I am not naive and the cost is too big. That is the sad sad truth. Breaks my heart and I have to accept that I will never be truely 'happy' again. As much as I dislike the UK, I am one of the fortunate ones, being able to leave and come here.


----------



## Halo

TEA said:


> I live with my heart in SA and my head in the UK!! Would love to go home but know the sad truth that it would be stupid to do so. I hope that my son gets out of SA as soon as he has graduated at the end of next year. How I would love to be in my home country with the skills I can offer it, but I am not naive and the cost is too big. That is the sad sad truth. Breaks my heart and I have to accept that I will never be truely 'happy' again. As much as I dislike the UK, I am one of the fortunate ones, being able to leave and come here.


You really need to try and embrace what the UK has to offer - Its immense. Be positive, its one of the greatest places in the world. (nobody like a grumpy South African in the UK)

I hope things work out with your kids.... And you need to thank the UK for giving you the opportunity of a better life.


----------



## DannyBoy

*What If ?*



MrFrankenstein said:


> is it a good idea?
> No. Unless you don't mind living like a domestic prisoner behind high walls - and statistically rolling the dice every day and every night - where the winners get raped, murdered, tortured on a daily basis.
> I think there's around 40 or so 'home invasions' every day in SA - alongside the 80 -120 daily murders, and unknown numbers of casualties.
> Per capita, SA has more murders than the USA - which is roughly 8 times larger in population.
> That stat tells you all you need to know.


Quite right, the USA is roughly 8 times larger in population. 
Quite right SA has more murders.

But what if after living in the USA for 18 years, you suddenly find you got laid off, 'cos your large multinational corporate company filed for bankruptcy? 
You try desperately to find work, but no-ones hiring.
You try get work in other industries, but no-ones hiring. 
Months go by.
Then your unemployment pay runs out, so you start selling all your "shtuff", then you cancel your Medical Insurance, then you sell your car, then you get sick and need an operation, but you got no medical and you got no job, and you may be one of the 15 million who may NEVER get a job in the industry you trained in ('cos they sent all them jobs to India) or any other mundane low paying job for that matter.
Now waddaya do?

You hear your new President talking about healthcare reform, but the bill don't get passed thru congress. You see yet another 36000 layoffs in February 2010, you hear that your "New Home", land that you came to for a "better Life" owes 14 Trillion dollars in debt,which can NEVER be repaid and the money presses keep right on a-printing them dollar bills.
You hear economists and Senators talking about a financial collapse of the U.S economy within the next decade, accompanied by rampant unemployment and rioting and panic in the streets when the dollar becomes worthless monopoly money.
Now waddaya do?

Do you give up and become homeless? 
Do you contemplate heading back to S.A where you still have some family (an aging mother) in the vain hope that perhaps just maybe you can get a job there?

I'm serious, I'm asking?
Waddaya do?


----------



## Halo

DannyBoy said:


> Do you give up and become homeless?
> Do you contemplate heading back to S.A where you still have some family (an aging mother) in the vain hope that perhaps just maybe you can get a job there?
> 
> I'm serious, I'm asking?
> Waddaya do?


Go to SA (was this a rhetorical Q:?) - Luckily if you live in Europe, you have other options.


----------



## Daxk

Dannyboy, it depends on what your skill set is.
and how badly its needed back in SA or elsewhere?
CAN you get work in SA that will pay you a living wage?
if not, then being broke in SA is likely to be far worse than being broke in the USA.
You raise Healthcare as an example, would you prefer to have yourself or your child at the Helen Joseph or Charlotte Mxenge or at an American Govt Hospital?
In SA , because of AA, there's not much in the way of advancement based on merit, so if you grabbed something for the sake of having a job, what follows?
I guess it depends on your skill set.

Starting your own business is what everyone says, I've started 5 in my life, all but one have been succesful.
but all of them took immense sacrifice.
and all of them took very careful research into what would work and how.
I was chatting to the son of a friend in SA, he found a small niche, it cost him R5000 to build the machinery, he makes an average of R20,000 a month but he is working 12-14 hours a day.
which is fine, but his living cost is so high he is barely breaking even.


----------



## DannyBoy

Daxk said:


> Dannyboy, it depends on what your skill set is.
> and how badly its needed back in SA or elsewhere?
> CAN you get work in SA that will pay you a living wage?
> if not, then being broke in SA is likely to be far worse than being broke in the USA.
> You raise Healthcare as an example, would you prefer to have yourself or your child at the Helen Joseph or Charlotte Mxenge or at an American Govt Hospital?
> In SA , because of AA, there's not much in the way of advancement based on merit, so if you grabbed something for the sake of having a job, what follows?
> I guess it depends on your skill set.
> 
> Starting your own business is what everyone says, I've started 5 in my life, all but one have been succesful.
> but all of them took immense sacrifice.
> and all of them took very careful research into what would work and how.
> I was chatting to the son of a friend in SA, he found a small niche, it cost him R5000 to build the machinery, he makes an average of R20,000 a month but he is working 12-14 hours a day.
> which is fine, but his living cost is so high he is barely breaking even.


Thanks Daxk, I will be considering this carefully.
Things are pretty bleek in the U.S right now. It's the worst I've ever seen it and there's been recessions before. But this one seems to be changing and affecting a lot of people's lives.


----------



## zambezi.king

DannyBoy,

If, and only if, you have a US passport (or some other foreign passport that will allow you back into the US) you could maybe try and get an expat job here or contract work depending on your skill set. You could try and ride out the reccession, although it is here as well. This should be your absolute last resort. Whether you are here on contract or permanent the risk is the same. You will have to weigh up the pro's and con's of financial survival against physical survival... AS LONG AS YOU HAVE THE BACKDOOR OF A U.S. PASSPORT.


----------



## DannyBoy

zambezi.king said:


> DannyBoy,
> 
> If, and only if, you have a US passport (or some other foreign passport that will allow you back into the US) you could maybe try and get an expat job here or contract work depending on your skill set. You could try and ride out the reccession, although it is here as well. This should be your absolute last resort. Whether you are here on contract or permanent the risk is the same. You will have to weigh up the pro's and con's of financial survival against physical survival... AS LONG AS YOU HAVE THE BACKDOOR OF A U.S. PASSPORT.


Thanks for the info folks. 
Not a very good prognosis for South Africa though. I was hoping they'd welcome me and my I.T skills back in S.A the way the American girls welcomed the Beatles at the U.S airport in 1963.


----------



## JohnHeath

*Find What You're Looking For*



DannyBoy said:


> Thanks for the info folks.
> Not a very good prognosis for South Africa though. I was hoping they'd welcome me and my I.T skills back in S.A the way the American girls welcomed the Beatles at the U.S airport in 1963.


Hi, crime is a big problem in many areas, but there are still areas that have lower crime where people enjoy living. Try contacting people on various forums by googling "East London Forum", "Port Elizabeth Forum", "Bloemfontein Forum" etc. to get an idea for yourself what areas could work for you. These forums often have jobs and other advise as well. 

Hope this gives you a broader perspective.

Regards

John Heath


----------



## Halo

JohnHeath said:


> Hi, crime is a big problem in many areas, but there are still areas that have lower crime where people enjoy living. Try contacting people on various forums by googling "East London Forum", "Port Elizabeth Forum", "Bloemfontein Forum" etc. to get an idea for yourself what areas could work for you. These forums often have jobs and other advise as well.
> 
> Hope this gives you a broader perspective.
> 
> Regards
> 
> John Heath


But then you have to live in those towns


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## JohnHeath

Halo said:


> But then you have to live in those towns


Hi Halo, Where do you live?


----------



## Daxk

Hi John, so you are saying that he will get a job in the smaller towns?
That East London or Bloemfontein or PE or Polokwane or Nelspruit etc... will give him a living as they are not sticking to AA requirements??
or are they?
The municipalties are crying out for skilled staff in a whole bunch of disciplines, IT I am sure is one of them?
but they cant hire anyone who is not previously disadvantaged..
so they hire contractors who start up their own businesses.. which is great, its the spirit of entrepreauneurship...
right?

But the Munies are paying their contractors on 60-90 days if at all.
because they dont have the skills to work the admin system and the applicants dont understand the system so.....
the contractors dont come to work as they dont get paid....
and they end up essentially unemployed.


----------



## Halo

JohnHeath said:


> Hi Halo, Where do you live?


Currently Melbourne - Been to all of those town mentioned - Dull as dishwater... Bloem - Hells bells talk about a place in the middle of nowhere.


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## n6evs

I too am thinking of moving back to SA (knysna in fact) I lived in JHB while I was a child and moved back to the UK 16 years ago.

I too agree that crime can happen anywhere,in any country. My husband works in a very 'rough' area in London. He had his vehicle broken into 3 times in a month and also saw a murder on the pavement at 6pm in the afternoon! He cannot walk the street after dark and is always watching his back.

In this day and age I do not think it is safe anywhere to let children walk around on their own, not just in south africa but here in the UK where there seems to be a pedophile lurking on every corner!

The Uk too has its pitfalls. Terrible weather, high taxes, crime is on the increase due to the recession despite government saying we are now out of it. ASBO's are no deterent, infact kids seem to think it is 'cool' to have one!"

We have been back to SA a few times since deciding we want to move there and every time we have gone back it has just re-enforced our decision. The quality of life is far better from what we can see. And if it doesnt work out the world is a big place and you can always go somewhere else. Everyones experience of life is different. SA is a big country so I suppose it all depends where exactly you are going to be.

Good Luck and I hope everything works out for you.


----------



## Halo

n6evs said:


> I too am thinking of moving back to SA (knysna in fact) I lived in JHB while I was a child and moved back to the UK 16 years ago.
> 
> I too agree that crime can happen anywhere,in any country. My husband works in a very 'rough' area in London. He had his vehicle broken into 3 times in a month and also saw a murder on the pavement at 6pm in the afternoon! He cannot walk the street after dark and is always watching his back.
> 
> In this day and age I do not think it is safe anywhere to let children walk around on their own, not just in south africa but here in the UK where there seems to be a pedophile lurking on every corner!
> 
> The Uk too has its pitfalls. Terrible weather, high taxes, crime is on the increase due to the recession despite government saying we are now out of it. ASBO's are no deterent, infact kids seem to think it is 'cool' to have one!"
> 
> We have been back to SA a few times since deciding we want to move there and every time we have gone back it has just re-enforced our decision. The quality of life is far better from what we can see. And if it doesnt work out the world is a big place and you can always go somewhere else. Everyones experience of life is different. SA is a big country so I suppose it all depends where exactly you are going to be.
> 
> Good Luck and I hope everything works out for you.


I think its ludicrous to compare the worst of the UK (presumed) to the prime in South Africa. One only has to look at the crime-stats to verify this. As for Children, it seems you have fallen into the media trap of the paedophile on every corner…… Paedophilia has not gone up, the reporting of its crimes has and the media just love it.

I do agree but things change and does that “place” you want to live in have the correct education/health care for your family? – Will your children have the opportunity they will have in Europe? What happens if you lose your job etc. Talk is cheap until you sit in a situation where you are stuck.


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## n6evs

Halo said:


> I think its ludicrous to compare the worst of the UK (presumed) to the prime in South Africa. One only has to look at the crime-stats to verify this. As for Children, it seems you have fallen into the media trap of the paedophile on every corner…… Paedophilia has not gone up, the reporting of its crimes has and the media just love it.
> 
> I do agree but things change and does that “place” you want to live in have the correct education/health care for your family? – Will your children have the opportunity they will have in Europe? What happens if you lose your job etc. Talk is cheap until you sit in a situation where you are stuck.


I do not live in the worst area of the UK far from it!( we are on the Cheshire border) Unfortunately my husband has to travel with his work ( not just london but nationwide).

When did you leave the UK or SA. I am someone living here NOW with children going to school NOW! And the UK is not all it is cracked up to be! I am not saying SA is the be all and end all but I am in a fortunate position to give it a try. After all we do not want any regrets later in life. My family all hold british passports and therefore I am not dooming my chilren to a life in SA as you would see it. Also there are a lot of international schools in SA. Everyones situation is different and I think it is not possible to give 'advice' to people unless you know their full situation.


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## Halo

n6evs said:


> I do not live in the worst area of the UK far from it!( we are on the Cheshire border) Unfortunately my husband has to travel with his work ( not just london but nationwide).
> 
> When did you leave the UK or SA. I am someone living here NOW with children going to school NOW! And the UK is not all it is cracked up to be! I am not saying SA is the be all and end all but I am in a fortunate position to give it a try. After all we do not want any regrets later in life. My family all hold british passports and therefore I am not dooming my chilren to a life in SA as you would see it. Also there are a lot of international schools in SA. Everyones situation is different and I think it is not possible to give 'advice' to people unless you know their full situation.


Left the UK 1.5 years ago for Australia (mainly for the kids) - At least you have the passports in your back-pocket for when SA goes down the loo. (hope it doesn't but I can't see it going any other way than Nigeria)

I agree but I know both countries very well (i.e.) and I would never take SA over the UK - I would just move within England if the area is unsuitable. (if I did not have kids then perhaps I would consider SA for then next few years)


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## Shrunk

*It's not all fantastic*



TEA said:


> I live with my heart in SA and my head in the UK!! Would love to go home but know the sad truth that it would be stupid to do so. I hope that my son gets out of SA as soon as he has graduated at the end of next year. How I would love to be in my home country with the skills I can offer it, but I am not naive and the cost is too big. That is the sad sad truth. Breaks my heart and I have to accept that I will never be truely 'happy' again. As much as I dislike the UK, I am one of the fortunate ones, being able to leave and come here.


I have to say, I fully agree with TEA.

Yes, I'm grateful I 'got out'. I left RSA 6 years ago. As another member pointed out quite rightly above, it's not possible for everybody to get out of RSA - and indeed, that includes the vast number of impoverished, poorly educated and duped black people too. I think they too would love to have the skills and means to immigrate. Those of us that "made it" out have a lot to be grateful for. I'm not religious, _ but there for the grace of god go I_ comes to mind. My aging mother is alone there. I will never be able to afford to bring her here or anywhere else and she needs chronic, life saving medication daily. No country will "take" her for that reason alone unless I can sign my name in blood that I will foot the bill. I can't do that.

No, I won't go back. Ever.

Do I live the dream? No.

Do I drag myself through every day and remind myself how lucky I am to be out or RSA? Yes.

But I'm not a happy clappy. A realist maybe. 

To anyone who sometimes feels the pinch of immigration blues: you're not alone.

But we have no choice but to smile and at least look happy.


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## Suki

*Is it a good idea to move back to SA?*

I recently returned to SA for the first time in 18 months and spent a few weeks in Cape Town. It was wonderful to see family and friends again, to spend time in the sun, attending braai`s, going on the wine route, eating amazingly good quality seafood, and feasting my eyes on the natural beauty of the area. 

However, here are some more of my impressions; having to lock all doors of the car again whilst driving, running the gauntlett of hawkers and beggers at every major traffic light! The first time I forgot to wind up my window at a traffic light my necklace was ripped off, leaving me afraid to open my car window during the entire holiday! Not being able to put my handbag, shopping bags, mobile phone etc. next to me on the passenger seat. Also having to remember never to leave anything in the car, no matter how small or seemingly invaluable. Having to leave the glove compartment open, just to show there is nothing worth stealing in it! The "car guards" in every parking area holding you to ransom. 

Not being able to walk freely in the streets with my digital camera and/or mobile phone in plain sight, holding on tight to my camera whilst taking photos in the street, having to be aware of who is around me whilst sending a text on my mobile in public, (stealing mobiles out your hands is big in SA) when paying for goods; being told by relatives to "stop opening up my wallet so wide and showing people how much you have in there! You could be followed and mugged" Always looking over my shoulder when drawing cash at an ATM. 

Making sure the security gate is always locked even when you are home and always having to set the alarm if you are the last one leaving the house and/or the last one to go to bed at night. Oh and remember never to open your window at night beyond the allowed amount, otherwise the alarm will go off and wake up and frighten the entire household! 

Not being able to go for a walk in the table mountain national park area unless you are in a group! (Sadly criminals are targeting hikers) And the one that really screamed the loudest; having to have my neighbour walk me home in the evening 100meters down the road after a dinner. 

And although I really do miss the outdoor lifestyle that I had in SA, I realize now that it is no life if you can`t even walk alone in evening in a decent neighbourhood.


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## Les77

*Come back*

Hi Wade

Well, my wife and I came to SA 4 years ago.. with our little daughter in tow. We decided that raising her in SA was a BETTER idea than raising her in the 
UK. 

I think the problem you will find is that there are way too many negative expats on these forums and that you will never get a rounded view point.. although this article might help you with that.

CHECK SouthAfricainfo South Africa 6th best to live in: expats (article)

Funny, it seems that expats like our country a lot more than we do!!! 

We have settled in well and have our own business, we spend lots of time with family and are loving being back in SA!!!! Both our kids (we have a son now too!) are in decent schools (more than decent) and so yes we are happily living in SA.

Of course there is crime, but I do not in any way live in fear. (I was in London one the day the bombs went off... and have felt more fear in the UK when confronted by the YOBS!! than I ever have here in SA) Furthermore I think if you prefer to live in another part of SA (CT or Durban) I would imagine you would find it more ' peaceful too....

Anyway so a more rounded feedback for you. 

Regards

Les


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## Les77

n6evs said:


> I too am thinking of moving back to SA (knysna in fact) I lived in JHB while I was a child and moved back to the UK 16 years ago.
> 
> I too agree that crime can happen anywhere,in any country. My husband works in a very 'rough' area in London. He had his vehicle broken into 3 times in a month and also saw a murder on the pavement at 6pm in the afternoon! He cannot walk the street after dark and is always watching his back.
> 
> In this day and age I do not think it is safe anywhere to let children walk around on their own, not just in south africa but here in the UK where there seems to be a pedophile lurking on every corner!
> 
> The Uk too has its pitfalls. Terrible weather, high taxes, crime is on the increase due to the recession despite government saying we are now out of it. ASBO's are no deterent, infact kids seem to think it is 'cool' to have one!"
> 
> We have been back to SA a few times since deciding we want to move there and every time we have gone back it has just re-enforced our decision. The quality of life is far better from what we can see. And if it doesnt work out the world is a big place and you can always go somewhere else. Everyones experience of life is different. SA is a big country so I suppose it all depends where exactly you are going to be.
> 
> Good Luck and I hope everything works out for you.


WELCOME BACK.... I think you are 100% correct in what you are saying...pity that there arent more balanced opinions on this blog.


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## TEA

Les77 said:


> WELCOME BACK.... I think you are 100% correct in what you are saying...pity that there arent more balanced opinions on this blog.


I think the opinions are very balanced on this blog...crime is a MAJOR problem in SA and acknowledging this does not make a person negative. Instead, I battle with intelligent, educated people who, living in secured estates with 24hr security, keep saying how great life is. What an 'artificial' life and so completely short sighted. 
If it weren't for crime and the incompetency of the government, my husband & myself, both professionals, would never have torn our family apart,sold our lovely home and given up so much that we love to move here to the UK:smow:. And I think I speak for thousands of other South Africans who feel they have little choice but to leave their beloved country. :hurt:


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## TEA

Shrunk said:


> I have to say, I fully agree with TEA.
> 
> Yes, I'm grateful I 'got out'. I left RSA 6 years ago. As another member pointed out quite rightly above, it's not possible for everybody to get out of RSA - and indeed, that includes the vast number of impoverished, poorly educated and duped black people too. I think they too would love to have the skills and means to immigrate. Those of us that "made it" out have a lot to be grateful for. I'm not religious, _ but there for the grace of god go I_ comes to mind. My aging mother is alone there. I will never be able to afford to bring her here or anywhere else and she needs chronic, life saving medication daily. No country will "take" her for that reason alone unless I can sign my name in blood that I will foot the bill. I can't do that.
> 
> No, I won't go back. Ever.
> 
> Do I live the dream? No.
> 
> Do I drag myself through every day and remind myself how lucky I am to be out or RSA? Yes.
> 
> But I'm not a happy clappy. A realist maybe.
> 
> To anyone who sometimes feels the pinch of immigration blues: you're not alone.
> 
> But we have no choice but to smile and at least look happy.


Thanks Shrunk...pity you're so far away; we could have met up for a cuppa to share some more.


----------



## TEA

n6evs said:


> I too am thinking of moving back to SA (knysna in fact) I lived in JHB while I was a child and moved back to the UK 16 years ago.
> 
> I too agree that crime can happen anywhere,in any country. My husband works in a very 'rough' area in London. He had his vehicle broken into 3 times in a month and also saw a murder on the pavement at 6pm in the afternoon! He cannot walk the street after dark and is always watching his back.
> 
> In this day and age I do not think it is safe anywhere to let children walk around on their own, not just in south africa but here in the UK where there seems to be a pedophile lurking on every corner!
> 
> The Uk too has its pitfalls. Terrible weather, high taxes, crime is on the increase due to the recession despite government saying we are now out of it. ASBO's are no deterent, infact kids seem to think it is 'cool' to have one!"
> 
> We have been back to SA a few times since deciding we want to move there and every time we have gone back it has just re-enforced our decision. The quality of life is far better from what we can see. And if it doesnt work out the world is a big place and you can always go somewhere else. Everyones experience of life is different. SA is a big country so I suppose it all depends where exactly you are going to be.
> 
> Good Luck and I hope everything works out for you.


Even though I largely agree with you about the UK, if you have children, consider your decision very very carefully! I'm sure you are aware of the racial tension stirring because of Malema. Also crime in the UK cannot be compared to SA!! You may be paying high taxes in the UK but you do get something back for it.
It is tough making a new life but I am determined to find the'good' in the UK and make the most of it:Travel, amazing walks, English countryside, great pub food, BBC, better drivers, a postal system that works, sleeping peacefully at night without the sound of dogs barking and gunshots, etc. I am setting up a SA expat group to enjoy some of these things together. Hopefully in time this place will feel like home. :amen:


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## Daxk

TEA, it depends on attitude.
I live in Ireland.
Its wet.
Its cold.
People live in Townhouse flats that are joined together.
The roads have potholes.
Its a Nanny State.
The Banks and most businesses close at Lunchtimes and on Saturdays and they only open at 10 am.
The people speak a funny language and are very nosy.


OR?
Its wet but people, unlike Sa, just continue with their lives.
every car has two umbrellas and there is a whole bunch by the door.
Its a soft rain and the clothes you buy dont seem to get as wet or if they do dry out quicker than the stuff you brought from SA.
You go for walks, or bicycle rides and it rains and youfind some shelter, and i for some reason theres lots of shelters, and 5 minutes later, you go on.
and if it really continues, you find a warm pub with some sea food chowder and some black bread, preferablynext to a bus stop.
you lock up the car and lo and behold ,its still there when you fetch it tomorrow.

Its Cold.
Yes it is, until you chuck out your SA shoes and buy some local ones with thicker soles.
You also dress in layers, T-shirt, shirt, jersey, Jacket.
you keep some thin gloves in the pocket and a thin Balaclava in the other.
Your House?
more later,but it has central heating, 20 degrees is very comfortable, similar to the 20 degrees my Underfloor Heating in SA maintainedon on winter nights.

You look at what you want, forget the normal SarfEffrican thing of living in the cheapest house available.
and find a house in the Country.
Downside is travelling time.
upside is family happiness.
after all, sun only sets at 10pm summer time.
My Case its a new House (4 bed,4 bath, lounge Family,Dining, Kitchen, Conservatory,Garage on half an acre in the corner of a farm) daughter and friends were hanging over the back fence feding hay to the newborn calves after their bicycle ride in the forest behind us this afternoon.
and no, it didn't rain.
Education?
Excellent school 10 minutes away, yes, there are 30 in a class,but there are two helpers to assist.
The SchoolBus picks up and drops at the frontgate
and its free. (as is Varsity later)
There are lots of extracurricular activities.
Winter its Drama and Badminton and Ballet and the School Chess cLub , the Guitar club is under supported.
Swimming is in the Heated Pool at one of 5 clubs around us.


Irish Roads are the Pits.
But they have two old guys who constantly fill in the potholes on the farm road we live in.
and we can only travel at 120k's /hour on a couple of freeways, and we have to be sober.
Dificult! "sigh!"
It is a Nanny state.
We are so used to making a plan, bending a rule, that its irritating.
But!!
The post gets delivered,everything seems to work.
someone says I'll pop it in the post to you, and they do.
everyone respects the police and the law works
.people greet each other, they aren't nosy they are just interested.
you get used to the accents and make friends.

Fastest way to suss a Country.
Have a flat tyre.
In Rural Ireland (which is everywhere except Dublin) not one but plenty will stop to help (and have a chat)
In SA I was concerned about being hi-jacked.
The fastest way to sort out "Heimwee"
ask if you could do it in SA.


----------



## Les77

Daxk said:


> TEA, it depends on attitude.
> I live in Ireland.
> Its wet.
> Its cold.
> People live in Townhouse flats that are joined together.
> The roads have potholes.
> Its a Nanny State.
> The Banks and most businesses close at Lunchtimes and on Saturdays and they only open at 10 am.
> The people speak a funny language and are very nosy.
> 
> 
> OR?
> Its wet but people, unlike Sa, just continue with their lives.
> every car has two umbrellas and there is a whole bunch by the door.
> Its a soft rain and the clothes you buy dont seem to get as wet or if they do dry out quicker than the stuff you brought from SA.
> You go for walks, or bicycle rides and it rains and youfind some shelter, and i for some reason theres lots of shelters, and 5 minutes later, you go on.
> and if it really continues, you find a warm pub with some sea food chowder and some black bread, preferablynext to a bus stop.
> you lock up the car and lo and behold ,its still there when you fetch it tomorrow.
> 
> Its Cold.
> Yes it is, until you chuck out your SA shoes and buy some local ones with thicker soles.
> You also dress in layers, T-shirt, shirt, jersey, Jacket.
> you keep some thin gloves in the pocket and a thin Balaclava in the other.
> Your House?
> more later,but it has central heating, 20 degrees is very comfortable, similar to the 20 degrees my Underfloor Heating in SA maintainedon on winter nights.
> 
> You look at what you want, forget the normal SarfEffrican thing of living in the cheapest house available.
> and find a house in the Country.
> Downside is travelling time.
> upside is family happiness.
> after all, sun only sets at 10pm summer time.
> My Case its a new House (4 bed,4 bath, lounge Family,Dining, Kitchen, Conservatory,Garage on half an acre in the corner of a farm) daughter and friends were hanging over the back fence feding hay to the newborn calves after their bicycle ride in the forest behind us this afternoon.
> and no, it didn't rain.
> Education?
> Excellent school 10 minutes away, yes, there are 30 in a class,but there are two helpers to assist.
> The SchoolBus picks up and drops at the frontgate
> and its free. (as is Varsity later)
> There are lots of extracurricular activities.
> Winter its Drama and Badminton and Ballet and the School Chess cLub , the Guitar club is under supported.
> Swimming is in the Heated Pool at one of 5 clubs around us.
> 
> 
> Irish Roads are the Pits.
> But they have two old guys who constantly fill in the potholes on the farm road we live in.
> and we can only travel at 120k's /hour on a couple of freeways, and we have to be sober.
> Dificult! "sigh!"
> It is a Nanny state.
> We are so used to making a plan, bending a rule, that its irritating.
> But!!
> The post gets delivered,everything seems to work.
> someone says I'll pop it in the post to you, and they do.
> everyone respects the police and the law works
> .people greet each other, they aren't nosy they are just interested.
> you get used to the accents and make friends.
> 
> Fastest way to suss a Country.
> Have a flat tyre.
> In Rural Ireland (which is everywhere except Dublin) not one but plenty will stop to help (and have a chat)
> In SA I was concerned about being hi-jacked.
> The fastest way to sort out "Heimwee"
> ask if you could do it in SA.



Yep Daxk - I agree. your current circumstances/living conditions are what you make of them... and I really enjoyed the time you spent in describing your life. Thanks

I think the bottom line is that we are all different and cope with things differently. My wife for example couldnt stand the UK weather (I cant really argue) and so we could never live there. Thats not to say that I dont love the country and especially the countryside...... 

I personally (talking more England) dont like the look of where the country is going socially (Nanny state as you mentioned with socialist mindset) and I think with all the emigration they are asking for trouble... I am also concerned with the youth of the country and would not raise my children there partly for that reason.

Anyway all said and done, I am an African through and through and my heart and my future/life is here... and I certainly hope that it always will be. I embrace the NEW SA and hope to play my part in ensuring my countries success into the future. I LOVE the fact that my friends/family are adopting black kids and I see so much integration all around me!!! 

Of course I am not in denial and acknowledge that SA has plenty of problems, but considering where we have come from (and despite doom and gloom for 20 years I have yet to see civil war) I choose to live with them, I have a sucessful business and my kids are in great schools. My parents and my inlaws live around the corner.... and my sisters and brother are all returning to SA within the next year (from the Uk and USA) so I look forward to that too!!!

Now we sit back and see whats in store for SA over the next 5 years.... as always im sure it will prove to be an interesting ride..... there no denying that!!!!


----------



## wgxsa

mman said:


> Ok so first of all the gautrain is certainly aimed at the middle class person. The aim is to get the people who are driving to work to use the gautrain system instead to relieve the terrible traffic jams in Jhb. 50c to 60c toll payable for each kilometre from October next year means toll charges between Johannesburg and Tshwane for a daily commuter will run at around R1 000 a month. This backs up the fact they are trying to stop people from using cars in inner city.
> 
> Ok so now your cost stats: R12 to travel between Sandton and Rhodesfield stations, around R20 between Johannesburg and Tshwane, and R80 between OR Tambo International Airport and Sandton stations. NOT R100 , and please not MOST people will probaly use the R12 - R20 option as they not going to be traveling from the airport to work everyday!
> 
> R80 is still cheap. The Heathrow (airport) express in London costs R225
> 
> R800 a month if you’re a regular user is an estimate, however this is soooo much cheaper than if you were driving if you take the toll, fuel and ware and tare. Not to mention as it would be much quicker (travel speeds 180km per hour), safer and less stressfull!
> 
> I have always been very critising of the ANC but this is one of the best projects to date.
> 
> 
> Now to your stadium claim - The world cup is expected to generate R21 bil into the economy, generating an estimated 160 000 jobs. Thats the stadiums paid for... The real income will not come immediately. *IF* (and notice how i say "if") the world cup is a sucess it will generate income etc over the future. Changing the way the world views both South Africa and Africa.
> 
> Whether the world cup is a sucess only time will tell, i have my doubts but im trying to stay positive...


Are you delusional or just an idiot??


----------



## Daxk

Les,
No matter what we will always compare.
apart from the crime issues, let us compare life in Sunny SA .
My Family and Business are in Midrand/Pretoria Gauteng, so moving to Knysna or the CT is the same scenario as moving overseas, excluding the weather.
both involve strangers and new lives?

My Home in Sa is also a four bed, four bath , garage on a 1/3rd acre.
its a very comfortable home.
but it has a 1.8m palisade with 450mm overhang and 18 strand electric fence on 4 sides.
I have trellidors on all windows and doors, my house is divided into three sections.
I have infra red PAR lights that light up at any movement all around the house, and the infrared beams that cover all four sides of the house (massive false alarms) are linked to a buzzer next to my bed.
The Yorkies slept in the bedroom section which had a rape gate, the Golden retriever slept in the adjoining Family Room. the rest of the house was alarmed with glass breaks and window catches.
The routine was nature.
clunk click.
check everything and I slept with the 9 mil under the pillow.
and that was before 4 black guys stuck guns into our faces for two hours while my 5 yo daughter hid in a zozo hut with spiders which she fears..

We were into the outdoor life.
Sunny skies, great place.
used to walk down at the Jukskei, cant do that anymore.
The Wilds ?
Nope.
Emmerentia Rose Garden?
Nope?
Bottle of wine on top of Northcliff Hill? where the old Film studios were?
nope.
Rietvlei Dam at Irene?
Sailing or just walking through the Nature Reserve?
Nope.
Taking te Scrambler through Blue Hills?
nope, they wait at the river crossing to getthe cell phone.
I can keep on, Les, going out at night?
going camping,
going trout fishing,

eventually you realise that having Sunny skies is not that much fun when you cant enjoy it anymore.
and I am an African.
the red dust in my lungs and river water ingested over 54 years makes me that
Love it but its no longer my home.
or where I want to raise my daughter.


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## zambezi.king

Everyone whinges about the cold in the UK (we lived there for 6 years)... but when are you really cold? Not in your centrally heated home, nor in your heated car, nor in your heated public transport, nor in your heated shops, nor in your heated offices... it is cold for those few minutes that it takes to run to the car or the shop or to the bus (that is safe and usually on time) or while the heater in the car heats up.

Sure winters are long but you can fly to the med in midwinter for 10 quid per person. If you are silly enough to not get out of the place for a warm up mid-winter then your brain is already frozen. Also, most of the Brits go for their holidays in summer to the med... never understood that... go somewhere hot during the only 3 months of hot weather you have??? Daft! Anyway...

I also enjoy camping and fishing but the days of just going to any bit of water/wilderness is over... so much for the "sense of freedom" that the great african skies used to give you. 

For those returning... it's much like thinking back to the army... it was"great" remembering this and that but we forget the emotional turmoil, the dangers, the heartache, the fatigue, etc, etc, _ad nauseum_. Yes it is great to be back to the familiar surroundings and faces and back into the comfort zone and the sunshine but you still have to live. You *might* survive and increase your wealth or circle of friends but will you thrive in your heart, will your stress levels go up or down? Do you think that in 10 years your kids are going to be better off in terms of schooling and safety?

Lastly, I hear some people say "yes come back, look at us we are doing great, large fortified house, PRIVATE SCHOOLS, OWN BUSINESS and life in Knysna/Bloem/Kimberly/George etc is great"... Well what about the other 90% that can't afford your luxuries? Do you still say to them "come over, let you kids go to the ****ty govt schools, live in crappy dangerous areas, fight for jobs that you probably will never get even though you are over-qualified, who cares we are rich and we need canon fodder!" 

OOOOh, the rainbow nation... just like a real rainbow, has no white strip, is merely a trick of the light and the pot of gold at the end is always a myth!


----------



## Jen the RN

DannyBoy said:


> You hear economists and Senators talking about a financial collapse of the U.S economy within the next decade, accompanied by rampant unemployment and rioting and panic in the streets when the dollar becomes worthless monopoly money.
> Now waddaya do?


Step 1 would be to turn off Fox News and stop listening to Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh. People have been saying that the dollar will become worthless ever since the US came off the gold standard.

Simply put, that cannot happen in a country with this large of a GDP. The USA has the #1 GDP in the world. No other nation comes close to this level of productivity. China's GDP doesn't even come close to the USA's. We're talking a difference of 4 trillion vs 14 trillion.

There's no way the American dollar can become worthless when it's being backed by the most productive society on the planet. So you can stop worrying about that.



DannyBoy said:


> Do you give up and become homeless?
> Do you contemplate heading back to S.A where you still have some family (an aging mother) in the vain hope that perhaps just maybe you can get a job there?
> 
> I'm serious, I'm asking?
> Waddaya do?


No and hell no. It's never a good idea to jump out of the frying pan and into the fire. Even in this major recession, there's still more opportunity in the US than there is in South Freakin Africa. If you've been in the USA for 18 years, then you're a citizen, right? You can always get public assistance to make sure you don't wind up homeless or on the street.

Besides, there's jobs in Canada still. It's closer to the US, so why not give the old Maple Leaf a try?


----------



## Les77

*Howzit*



zambezi.king said:


> Everyone whinges about the cold in the UK (we lived there for 6 years)... but when are you really cold? Not in your centrally heated home, nor in your heated car, nor in your heated public transport, nor in your heated shops, nor in your heated offices... it is cold for those few minutes that it takes to run to the car or the shop or to the bus (that is safe and usually on time) or while the heater in the car heats up.
> 
> Sure winters are long but you can fly to the med in midwinter for 10 quid per person. If you are silly enough to not get out of the place for a warm up mid-winter then your brain is already frozen. Also, most of the Brits go for their holidays in summer to the med... never understood that... go somewhere hot during the only 3 months of hot weather you have??? Daft! Anyway...
> 
> I also enjoy camping and fishing but the days of just going to any bit of water/wilderness is over... so much for the "sense of freedom" that the great african skies used to give you.
> 
> For those returning... it's much like thinking back to the army... it was"great" remembering this and that but we forget the emotional turmoil, the dangers, the heartache, the fatigue, etc, etc, _ad nauseum_. Yes it is great to be back to the familiar surroundings and faces and back into the comfort zone and the sunshine but you still have to live. You *might* survive and increase your wealth or circle of friends but will you thrive in your heart, will your stress levels go up or down? Do you think that in 10 years your kids are going to be better off in terms of schooling and safety?
> 
> Lastly, I hear some people say "yes come back, look at us we are doing great, large fortified house, PRIVATE SCHOOLS, OWN BUSINESS and life in Knysna/Bloem/Kimberly/George etc is great"... Well what about the other 90% that can't afford your luxuries? Do you still say to them "come over, let you kids go to the ****ty govt schools, live in crappy dangerous areas, fight for jobs that you probably will never get even though you are over-qualified, who cares we are rich and we need canon fodder!"
> 
> OOOOh, the rainbow nation... just like a real rainbow, has no white strip, is merely a trick of the light and the pot of gold at the end is always a myth!



I dont actually recommend staying or going actually.... your call really. You choose what you want to live with.... The problems in SA (of which there are plenty) ... or a life in the UK (also with its challenges and sacrifices........ yobs/weather/socialism/NHS etc etc.... 

Look at Peterborough and the current issues there with immigration and the problems/crime that come along with it.... seems like a scene of what is to come in the UK. Again not to broad brush the UK because like in SA some areas are pretty damn fine!!)

Despite the wonderful picture that gets painted of the UK, I personally feel that all you are doing is painting the picture that you want to see of the place. 

Not feeling the cold/wet and overcast 3 days out of 4.... I mean come on. You cant live stuck/imprisoned in your home to escape the weather surely??

I believe that the same can be said of the UK in terms of schooling... many parents move to certain areas to ensure that they can get their kids into the decent schools.... and with the youth of the UK (that I saw) one has to be able to put your kids in a decent/upmarket school...
(Actually I do have friends who have kids going to govt schools, and yes there are still fine... you just have to select with care before sending your child - hmmm JUST LIKE the UK!!) 

In fact, I watched my nephew playing Rugby at a government school the other day, and all I felt was a sense of pride because this former ALL WHITE school had kids of all colours playing rugby together.... and you know what... most of his friends are of colour too..... (that is the generation that will take this country forward!!) 

And yes, my kids will be well rounded individuals with a South African accent and proud of the COLORFUL RAINBOW (IF IMPERFECT) nation that they live in. They will get a quality education that will equip them for life (where ever they choose to live here or overseas when they are of age!!)

Back to your safe buses... MILLIONS of commuters move around SA each day, via taxi (sure not the safest because of the drivers!!) and we have a couple of bus services in and around JHB that seem to get my staff in on time every day.... we also have this new bus rapid transport system and the Gautrain, so we are improving our little 3rd world country every day!!! 

STAY OR LEAVE, it really is your call. Im a SAFFA who loves my land above any other and I will continue to watch it grow and mature in the coming years.... will we have more problems and issues and have to keep fighting crime.... YES!! but I will at least be here to aim towards that goal.

P.S I really still do enjoy the open air and the blue skies above SA.... From the Highveld to the Berg....and down to the Natal coast... plenty of places to visit and enjoy the beauty that is SA.


----------



## Les77

Daxk said:


> Les,
> No matter what we will always compare.
> apart from the crime issues, let us compare life in Sunny SA .
> My Family and Business are in Midrand/Pretoria Gauteng, so moving to Knysna or the CT is the same scenario as moving overseas, excluding the weather.
> both involve strangers and new lives?
> 
> My Home in Sa is also a four bed, four bath , garage on a 1/3rd acre.
> its a very comfortable home.
> but it has a 1.8m palisade with 450mm overhang and 18 strand electric fence on 4 sides.
> I have trellidors on all windows and doors, my house is divided into three sections.
> I have infra red PAR lights that light up at any movement all around the house, and the infrared beams that cover all four sides of the house (massive false alarms) are linked to a buzzer next to my bed.
> The Yorkies slept in the bedroom section which had a rape gate, the Golden retriever slept in the adjoining Family Room. the rest of the house was alarmed with glass breaks and window catches.
> The routine was nature.
> clunk click.
> check everything and I slept with the 9 mil under the pillow.
> and that was before 4 black guys stuck guns into our faces for two hours while my 5 yo daughter hid in a zozo hut with spiders which she fears..
> 
> We were into the outdoor life.
> Sunny skies, great place.
> used to walk down at the Jukskei, cant do that anymore.
> The Wilds ?
> Nope.
> Emmerentia Rose Garden?
> Nope?
> Bottle of wine on top of Northcliff Hill? where the old Film studios were?
> nope.
> Rietvlei Dam at Irene?
> Sailing or just walking through the Nature Reserve?
> Nope.
> Taking te Scrambler through Blue Hills?
> nope, they wait at the river crossing to getthe cell phone.
> I can keep on, Les, going out at night?
> going camping,
> going trout fishing,
> 
> eventually you realise that having Sunny skies is not that much fun when you cant enjoy it anymore.
> and I am an African.
> the red dust in my lungs and river water ingested over 54 years makes me that
> Love it but its no longer my home.
> or where I want to raise my daughter.


Hi Daxk

I fully respect your thoughts and based on this mail and your experiences I see your view point.

I cant really relate though as I (perhaps naively??) dont live in a state of fear at all. I mean I have never owned a gun and will never.... I dont have an alarm at all but I do have bars on my window. Does that make me a prisoner... no not at all.

I spend loads of time with friends and family.... and yes we enjoy ourselves and dont sit locked inside??? I travel around the coutry too as there is so much to see and do.... and no I havent become a victim?? (sure I have been robbed once or twice in my life - but nothing like which happened to you.)

The problem is that people move around the world to escape.... and what if something (heaven forbid!) should happen in your new home....... a kid with a knife (read the London papers!!! even the UK ones!!) or something else.... where will you run to next??

Anyways I agree SA is far from perfect, very far in fact..... But it is my home and I will remain here........ 20 years of fear spreading and pessimism and I cannot see this country worse off than after 94. THE ONLY PROBLEM IS THAT PEOPLE FOCUS SOLELY ON THE BAD NEWS AND DO NOT PAY NOTICE TO ALL OF THE GOOD NEWS, OF WHICH IN SA THERE IS PLENTY.

We (SA) have come a long way, and still have a long way to still go..... sure. But I can live with that.

Take care Daxk!!!


----------



## zambezi.king

Les77,

As they say each to their own and no amount of opinion will change some-ones mind. If you are happy then great anf good luck to you. Having lived in a few countries around the world I can honestly say that you can have the "african lifestyle" without the nonsense that you have to put up with in South Africa.

As far as good govt schools go they are very few and far between and you haveto be zoned to go there. Class sizes are usually 30 plus and we are stuck with the OBE system that has failed worldwide and been largely abandoned worldwide. Don't get me wrong, it is not about the multiracial rugby team etc, it is about the lowering of the standards and the general slide that 90% of govt schools are experiencing.

Secondly, I can't tell/remember if you are a Saffa or have moved over here as an expat or a returning Saffa but I can't agree with you that we are no worse off than after 1994! If you think this is the case then our perceptions of South Africa are so far apart that no amout of dialogue would ever bring us into the same ball park. I am not one of those paranoid people but I am a realist and observant of the facts around me. I am not one of those who "never watch Carte Blanche because it is soooo negative", I watch it so that I can be informed. 

The crime figures show that I would rather take my chances of encountering a job with a knife than a hatefilled person with an AK47.

Lastly, a person has to realistically see a future for himself and his kids... if Africa has taught us nothing else it has shown that the chances of things improving in the long run are far less than first world countries.


----------



## Halo

Les77 said:


> Anyways I agree SA is far from perfect, very far in fact..... But it is my home and I will remain here........ 20 years of fear spreading and pessimism and I cannot see this country worse off than after 94. THE ONLY PROBLEM IS THAT PEOPLE FOCUS SOLELY ON THE BAD NEWS AND DO NOT PAY NOTICE TO ALL OF THE GOOD NEWS, OF WHICH IN SA THERE IS PLENTY.
> 
> We (SA) have come a long way, and still have a long way to still go..... sure. But I can live with that.
> 
> Take care Daxk!!!


Its WAY WAY worse off that in 94

Exchange rate
Unemployment 
Crime
Power problems
Water purification problems
Aids
Transport / Roads
Cost of living by a factor of 10

The only thing better is that a small % of non-white South Africans have become mega-rich through BEE/AA etc and the general populous can now have a vote. Other than that - I just can't see what's better, how its going to get better as its on a one way trip down the the African renaissance route.

Its just the way it is.


----------



## Les77

zambezi.king said:


> Les77,
> 
> As they say each to their own and no amount of opinion will change some-ones mind. If you are happy then great anf good luck to you. Having lived in a few countries around the world I can honestly say that you can have the "african lifestyle" without the nonsense that you have to put up with in South Africa.
> 
> As far as good govt schools go they are very few and far between and you haveto be zoned to go there. Class sizes are usually 30 plus and we are stuck with the OBE system that has failed worldwide and been largely abandoned worldwide. Don't get me wrong, it is not about the multiracial rugby team etc, it is about the lowering of the standards and the general slide that 90% of govt schools are experiencing.
> 
> Secondly, I can't tell/remember if you are a Saffa or have moved over here as an expat or a returning Saffa but I can't agree with you that we are no worse off than after 1994! If you think this is the case then our perceptions of South Africa are so far apart that no amout of dialogue would ever bring us into the same ball park. I am not one of those paranoid people but I am a realist and observant of the facts around me. I am not one of those who "never watch Carte Blanche because it is soooo negative", I watch it so that I can be informed.
> 
> The crime figures show that I would rather take my chances of encountering a job with a knife than a hatefilled person with an AK47.
> 
> Lastly, a person has to realistically see a future for himself and his kids... if Africa has taught us nothing else it has shown that the chances of things improving in the long run are far less than first world countries.


Hi Zambezi

thanks for the dialogue, I have enjoyed discussing with you.

Ultimately of course you are correct.We will have to agree to disagree on many things...... but thats diversity and opinions which I can live with.

I think (by stating SA better now), that what I mean is that the country and the people contributing to the economy of SA is more representative. It is now not ONLY the whites who benefit (and abuse ha,ha) the system. That is more equality and that is what pleases me.... (I go into a restaurant and see a great mix of people/cultures... whereas 10-15 years ago it was filled ponly with white people!!!! that is/was so wrong.

Of course - (despite being the rose tinted glasses kind of guy) I am well aware of what Carte Blanche reports.... BUT I will also look to other sites/news and programming to get a more rounded view of SA. If I used CB as my only reference I would not be living here myself likely!!!
(actually I think the press in SA is to blame for a lot of the negativity and the mindsets of a lot of SAFFAS.... sensationalist and sometimes downright wrong and NOT looking at the positive news - of which there is actually much).

How the world rates South Africa - SouthAfrica.info

South Africa 6th best to live in: expats - SouthAfrica.info

The Accidental Expat*-*South Africa - The Good News

Have a look at these articles..... do you think they would make headline news (or even get into the Star or onto CB? anyways..... 

I have visited 3 continents myself and I still cannot see how they are the same as my red earthed Africa. there is nothing that compares.... but then thats my opinion 

Anyways... take care and I wish you everything of the best for your and your families future.

God Bless

Les


----------



## Halo

We can all post links.....
The world's most dangerous cities? - CNN.com

The reality are the statistics.... Check them out first.


----------



## Les77

Ha,ha... nice one.... Bud im not trying to make a point here.

The glass is half full to some and half empty to others..... come on.... stop trying to justify why you left SA. I frankly dont care (as someone said were probably better off without those that have left) and I dont really want you to come back.

All im saying is that there is more to SA than most EXPATS would have the world believe. 

Crime stats are skewed too... most of it is domestic (I believe over 80% is within families - terrible as that is) AND by far the bulk of it occurs in the TOWNSHIPS (I guess you never lived there and no... neither do I). 

Anyways I really dont want to convince you of anything, just allow me to present the other side of the story........ AND YES, there is one....


----------



## Les77

Halo said:


> We can all post links.....
> The world's most dangerous cities? - CNN.com
> 
> The reality are the statistics.... Check them out first.


Thanks for that, I now know which cities to be careful in.

Stats cant really be relied on.... I mean apparently 90% of Cape Town crime occurs in the townships... literally within a certain number of square miles (gangs etc)..... again you wouldnt live there would you.... Just like certain parts of New York or any major world city....heck I lived in London and there were LOADS of areas I didnt want to drive any where near!!! let alone walk through...... (Im sure AUS is the exception with no dangerous areas of course...)

AND there are TWO american cities listed there..... WHY are there still people living in that country!!! 

Thanks Halo..... enjoyed the info share... sure hope you read my articles too.... 

Take care 

Les


----------



## Les77

Halo said:


> Its WAY WAY worse off that in 94
> 
> Exchange rate
> Unemployment
> Crime
> Power problems
> Water purification problems
> Aids
> Transport / Roads
> Cost of living by a factor of 10
> 
> The only thing better is that a small % of non-white South Africans have become mega-rich through BEE/AA etc and the general populous can now have a vote. Other than that - I just can't see what's better, how its going to get better as its on a one way trip down the the African renaissance route.
> 
> Its just the way it is.



One eyed here too

Exchange rate - who cares (either good for importers or exporters), one of the better performing developing countries (stable banking and forex regulations protected us in recession)

Unemployment (Actually NO....5% whites are unemployed and 20-25% blacks are unemployed.... so if you were still here you would be doing ok) IN FACT AUS is 5.3%... so.. whatever. The facts are that not only a small minority are given the oppurtunities, there is a burgeoning black middle class now too!! 

Crime - Sure we have it. No arguements there. (You have no racial crime of any sort?) Huge influx of immigrants you do have....... hope that doesnt mean crime arrives too.... where to run to if that happens??

Power problems - nice one... few months of strain on the grid in early 2008 and WE HAVE AN ENERGY CRISIS!!! Forget the fact that SA development has been such that we outgrew the grid.... 2 powerstations are being built to compensate... Sure wasnt great at the time... but not the crisis our expats would have the world believe.....

Water purification problems- maybe thats whats wrong with me.... I drink tap water all the time!!  maybe a dam or two with a bit of scum... but not sure about this one??? I would have though that AUS (being mostly desert) would have more issues here??)

Aids - Sure big problem and no denying that. Reason not to live here..... hmmm (depends on ones lifestyle/?)

Transport / Roads - Wow thats a great one. I drive around JHB all the time (down to NAtal too!)... and all I see is development so not sure what meant here..... I mean they cant stop building and developing... soon the highways (which werent bad) will be WORLD CLASS!!! And with the new train and bus systems.. we are starting to get options.... New airports and existing upgraded massively.... OK.. really not getting this point!!! (and we are thirld world too !!) 

* Sure they could fix potholes quicker, all the rain weve had has certainly opened them up!! and you cant fix them until the rain stops!! (C.T I hear has a 48 hr turnaround to fix them... but they have the DA :clap2: )

Cost of living by a factor of 10 - JHB recently voted one of the cheapest places to live int he WORLD... by expats.... so not getting this one either. middle class and you live well here......

Yep - its just the way it is..... P.S theyve been promising Zimbabwe on us for 20 years...... where???? (that country gdp wise/infrastructure wise... is/was NOTHING NEAR to what SA is...... still cant see it. 

Again, I repeat... really!! Good luck in your new land (maybe not so new anymore) Wish you all of the best.... and hope you live the life you dream of.


----------



## Halo

Let me please get the record straight:

I don’t believe I have ever tried to justify why I left SA. I left because it was never home and I could not take the mentality. I still have property there and a few relations who would love to get out but can’t. If by some miracle or fluke of the cosmos SA does not decent into a Nigeria ( or worse Zim please read this - The Zimbabwe Mail ) I will most definitely come and enjoy all the things the Cape has to offer on extended holidays.

I worked for a power company and you have NO idea what you are talking about. It takes appox 6-12 years to build a power station, depending on what type and size – Something they should have done years ago but no….. So Eskom begs for a loan – More debt. Then who is going to man it once the old guard retires? Maintenance? – Bring on the Chinese?

I’m happy you’re happy in South Africa but for young couples with Children the only place to be is out. The freedom of travel, safety and education.

You remind me of the crowds shouting “O King you have the finest robes” when in fact he was bare.
Bottom Line – If you have Money and you are willing to limit your movement South Africa is very liveable but for the vast majority (white and black) it’s worse than ever. (Don't forget your safe room)


----------



## Les77

Halo said:


> Let me please get the record straight:
> 
> I don’t believe I have ever tried to justify why I left SA. I left because it was never home and I could not take the mentality. I still have property there and a few relations who would love to get out but can’t. If by some miracle or fluke of the cosmos SA does not decent into a Nigeria ( or worse Zim please read this - The Zimbabwe Mail ) I will most definitely come and enjoy all the things the Cape has to offer on extended holidays.
> 
> I worked for a power company and you have NO idea what you are talking about. It takes appox 6-12 years to build a power station, depending on what type and size – Something they should have done years ago but no….. So Eskom begs for a loan – More debt. Then who is going to man it once the old guard retires? Maintenance? – Bring on the Chinese?
> 
> I’m happy you’re happy in South Africa but for young couples with Children the only place to be is out. The freedom of travel, safety and education.
> 
> You remind me of the crowds shouting “O King you have the finest robes” when in fact he was bare.
> Bottom Line – If you have Money and you are willing to limit your movement South Africa is very liveable but for the vast majority (white and black) it’s worse than ever. (Don't forget your safe room)



"I left because it was never home and I could not take the mentality"

End of conversation, if its never been your home and you cant take the mentality (reading between the lines you then dont belong in Africa anyway) then there is no point going any further.

All the best Halo.... and I hope SA proves you wrong, not that it will make a scratch of difference to your life....

Take care

Les


----------



## Halo

Les77 said:


> "I left because it was never home and I could not take the mentality"
> 
> End of conversation, if its never been your home and you cant take the mentality (reading between the lines you then dont belong in Africa anyway) then there is no point going any further.
> 
> All the best Halo.... and I hope SA proves you wrong, not that it will make a scratch of difference to your life....
> 
> Take care
> 
> Les


What's that go to do with the price of eggs? (me belonging) it does not distract from the fact that South Africa is a more dangerous place now (for all) than it was 20 years ago at the end of Apartheid. (I'm not advocating that apartheid should have remained)

The thread is about returning lest we forget and for young families with children its not a good option for all the reasons mentioned in this thread.

I to hope SA won't fail BUT knowing Africa like I do I don't have much hope. Africa needs its renaissance to flourish sometime in the future - I don't feel like being part of that.... In closing, have a read and tell me if this is normal? (prey it does not spread) - Censorbugbear reports...

All the best to you and yours - Be safe.


----------



## Les77

Halo said:


> What's that go to do with the price of eggs? (me belonging) it does not distract from the fact that South Africa is a more dangerous place now (for all) than it was 20 years ago at the end of Apartheid. (I'm not advocating that apartheid should have remained)
> 
> The thread is about returning lest we forget and for young families with children its not a good option for all the reasons mentioned in this thread.
> 
> I to hope SA won't fail BUT knowing Africa like I do I don't have much hope. Africa needs its renaissance to flourish sometime in the future - I don't feel like being part of that.... In closing, have a read and tell me if this is normal? (prey it does not spread) - Censorbugbear reports...
> 
> All the best to you and yours - Be safe.


Fair enough

I think that ones outlook on this country would be affected by how you perceive the people of this country and their ability to continue to turn it into a better place to live.

If you doubt that, then there is no point in staying here. I certainly see a future for me and my family here (funnily enough both my sisters and my brother - living in the Uk and the USA respectively... and their kids) are coming back to live in SA. I think that reflects that people view oppurtunities/quality of life and also what they can GIVE to SA differently. 

We are a nation that will continue to see people coming and going (thats not a bad thing either) - Lets just hope that there are enough of us that want to see this place REALLY WORK ... staying. 

thanks for the wishes Halo and I apologise If I came across strongly or was too personal and judgemental!!! I am really passionate about SA and having lived overseas too I know what we could have here... and in many ways I feel we already do have here.... 

(I acknowledge also that this is Africa and the track record here hasnt been good, I just believe that we will buck that trend.... we need to!!!)

Take care

Les


----------



## Les77

Halo said:


> What's that go to do with the price of eggs? (me belonging) it does not distract from the fact that South Africa is a more dangerous place now (for all) than it was 20 years ago at the end of Apartheid. (I'm not advocating that apartheid should have remained)
> 
> The thread is about returning lest we forget and for young families with children its not a good option for all the reasons mentioned in this thread.
> 
> I to hope SA won't fail BUT knowing Africa like I do I don't have much hope. Africa needs its renaissance to flourish sometime in the future - I don't feel like being part of that.... In closing, have a read and tell me if this is normal? (prey it does not spread) - Censorbugbear reports...
> 
> All the best to you and yours - Be safe.



I read the article too and of course it is horrendous.... But sites like that arent new and basically reflect what is reported in the press here..... AND THATS THE PROBLEM......

For every bad story there are just as many GOOD ones....... we just dont get to hear about them as they dont sell newspapers and they arent al that interesting.... (building schools/out reaching to townships/building infrastructure/hosting events/different races working together and suceeding/racial harmony/political tolerance/new business/ etc etc etc....... 

basically Im saying that I view both sets of news... and find the middle ground based on that. If I were to watch Carte Blanche and read only a site like this... then likely I would be out of here too....... BUT WE NEED PERSPECTIVE AND THIS DOES NOT REFLECT SOUTH AFRICAN SOCIETY as a whole..... not by a long shot... and so there is hope.

Again.. all the best!! I have enjoyed our discussions around the wonderful/painful/beautiful yet troubled country that SA is......


----------



## BBJ

*South Africa, Now? With your girlfriend ? Are you on Medication?*

Unless you live in a really violent part of Baghdad and wear T-Shirts with pictures of George W on them, you cannot possibly move to a worse area of the world. South Africa is THE most violent country in the world that is not at war. In fact even some countries currently at war have a lower mortality rate:

21,553 murders 1st of 49 countries
31,918 murders with firearm 1st of 36 countries
52,425 rape 2nd of 50 countries and due to 5% being reported

If you have female family of any description, consider this; most survey groups believe that only 5% of Rapes are reported in South Africa, this is due to A) apathy because nothing gets done and B) The police might rape you too. If you calculate the true figure that 5% really represents it is closer to TWO MILLION a year, and now the animals are starting to Rape men too, so don't think anyone is safe. There are approximately 22 million women in South Africa, SO.... in about 11 years every woman in the country. THIS IS NOT FANTASY, these are the figures. You are a statistic waiting to happen. I've lost three friends there.... DEAD. I lived there for 15 years, and cannot count the hijacks, killings, rapes, house break-ins I have been witness to.

Do yourself a favour my friend take a look at your loved one tonight, and imagine the type of animals that live in SA. 

NationMaster - South African Crime statistics


----------



## MissPE

Hi Wade,

It is not as bad as what you read in the news papers, it is worse. Lets face it, you will not get killed as you land, but no one can guarantee the rest.

Lets talk about Bambino, my baby is 17 months old and MMR vaccine had been out-of-stock since October 2009. We are stressed.

Lets talk about the cost of living. Sjoe, you have to fist check Pick 'n Pay prices. We are all in the waiting room for the visas to come through.

If you call a bank's call centre, you can sit on the telephone for 15 minutes before an agent answers the call.

Lets talk about business. 

Sure you hear about farm murders, 3500, right? What about doctors, nurses, other medical workers, accountants, management consultants who get killed? How many professionals in cities get killed for every farmer? 

It is not that we do not want you hear, you ae welcome to come.


----------



## MissPE

Hi Danny,

Sure you can move to those cities, but finding a job is something else. 

Forget about AA and EE. We have so many challenges right here, that no one talks about AA and EE. Look at the news and you will see. Do work for municipalities - no one can guarantee that you will get your money within 30 days.

Look, you are most welcome to come back, but just be realistic. If you want to come back, hook-up with guys and sell services. I've got my own buzz and boy or boy. It is hardwork.


----------



## BBJ

*Facts are Facts*

NationMaster - South African Crime statistics 

This website has the ACTUAL crime figures, it is not fiction, it is not a fantasy made up by white AWB fanatics, it is the truth. South Africa is the MOST dangerous country in the world that is not at war. Fact.

It is destined to follow every single other African country into the abyss. Take a look at Zim today, for SA tomorrow. The historic proof, statistics and economic pointers lead to that conclusion. 

Of course, flights of romantic fantasy, dreaming of multi-racial rainbow nations skipping into the Drakensberg mountains holding hands is a great dream, but with the current leadership, 30,000,000 not working and about the same raping, murdering and thieving its not going to work, is it?


----------



## Halo

Les77 said:


> I read the article too and of course it is horrendous.... But sites like that arent new and basically reflect what is reported in the press here..... AND THATS THE PROBLEM......


I disagree, most of that does not even make the news. I'm naturally willing to be proved wrong.



Les77 said:


> For every bad story there are just as many GOOD ones....... we just dont get to hear about them as they dont sell newspapers and they arent al that interesting.... (building schools/out reaching to townships/building infrastructure/hosting events/different races working together and suceeding/racial harmony/political tolerance/new business/ etc etc etc.......


This is not true... I'm not sure what medication you are on :tongue1: but even the most fervent SA lover will admit there are serious problems with just about everything you have mentioned. Just saying something does not make it true.



Les77 said:


> basically Im saying that I view both sets of news... and find the middle ground based on that. If I were to watch Carte Blanche and read only a site like this... then likely I would be out of here too....... BUT WE NEED PERSPECTIVE AND THIS DOES NOT REFLECT SOUTH AFRICAN SOCIETY as a whole..... not by a long shot... and so there is hope.


Basically your "actually" saying that if you have cash and stay in a good suburb you may not be affected my crime (directley) as if you were looking at SA as a whole - you would see the mass unemployment, proverty and the slow erosion of the infrastructure. Yes there is hope but if one looks at Africa as a whole I'll put my wager elsewhere.



Les77 said:


> Again.. all the best!! I have enjoyed our discussions around the wonderful/painful/beautiful yet troubled country that SA is......


Never a truer word spoken


----------



## BBJ

Sorry Guys, but I do need to correct you on one thing... You say that "sites like these merely reflect what is reported in the newspapers"; Unfortunately, nothing could be further from the truth. These statists are collected country by country in terms of government released criminal court statistics. Can you imagine the chaos if the REAL numbers ever came out! The ANC has been systematically not releasing numbers, changing or amending certain crime definitions and categories in order that no one realises how bad it actually is. The conviction rate for murder for example has completely disappeared since 2004. A great deal of this is due to the World Cup, but with SA now hugely discounting tickets to the local populace due to very little interest from overseas, it looks like that too has been a bit of a flop. Not to say SA can't put on a decent show, but if very few foreigners turn up, and those that do getting robbed, I think the situation is just going to get worse. What was SA thinking building massive stadiums all over SA when they can't feed and protect their own people.... its typical, and will lead to more crime.


----------



## JohnHeath

*Positive + Negative = Balanced View*



Halo said:


> I disagree, most of that does not even make the news. I'm naturally willing to be proved wrong.
> 
> This is not true... I'm not sure what medication you are on :tongue1: but even the most fervent SA lover will admit there are serious problems with just about everything you have mentioned. Just saying something does not make it true.
> 
> 
> Basically your "actually" saying that if you have cash and stay in a good suburb you may not be affected my crime (directley) as if you were looking at SA as a whole - you would see the mass unemployment, proverty and the slow erosion of the infrastructure. Yes there is hope but if one looks at Africa as a whole I'll put my wager elsewhere.
> 
> Never a truer word spoken


Hi Les, 
Yes, I agree that a balanced view needs to be adopted, as with anything. Otherwise we keep throwing the baby out with the bathwater. How can a person, family or nation stand if we keep focusing on the negative. We will crumble.

Hi Halo, 
Trust you are well. I'm not saying that there are no problems. There are problems. But there are also amazing positive events etc happening. We just saw over 200,000 black, white, coloured, indian men gather over the past week-end, and they were not fighting(like all the rumours are saying will happen in SA), they were gathering to agree on making a positive impact on our nation. but the news groups don't have that featured, or discussed or mentioned.


----------



## Daxk

JohnHeath, I thought it was 400,000 at the MMC 2010?


----------



## JohnHeath

The newspaper Rapport said 400,000 were expected but it was between 200,000 and 300,000 somewhere. Thought I'd be conservative to be safe.


----------



## Halo

Les77 said:


> For every bad story there are just as many GOOD ones....... we just dont get to hear about them as they dont sell newspapers and they arent al that interesting.... (building schools/out reaching to townships/building infrastructure/hosting events/different races working together and suceeding/racial harmony/political tolerance/new business/ etc etc etc.......
> 
> basically Im saying that I view both sets of news... and find the middle ground based on that. If I were to watch Carte Blanche and read only a site like this... then likely I would be out of here too....... BUT WE NEED PERSPECTIVE AND THIS DOES NOT REFLECT SOUTH AFRICAN SOCIETY as a whole..... not by a long shot... and so there is hope.
> 
> Again.. all the best!! I have enjoyed our discussions around the wonderful/painful/beautiful yet troubled country that SA is......


I*s this one of the good ones?*

SA sewage in the toilet
Wed, 28 Apr 2010 09:28
Only seven percent of South Africa's waste-water treatment systems comply with international standards, reported Business Day on Wednesday.

According to the Green Drop report, compiled by the water affairs ministry, only 45 percent of waste-water systems assessed scored more than 50 percent.

Half of municipalities did not take part in the report which was compiled from 2008 to last year.

Business Day said the report was meant to be released in November but had been kept under wraps.

It was expected to be made public on Wednesday.


----------



## zambezi.king

Halo said:


> I*s this one of the good ones?*
> 
> SA sewage in the toilet
> Wed, 28 Apr 2010 09:28
> Only seven percent of South Africa's waste-water treatment systems comply with international standards, reported Business Day on Wednesday.
> 
> According to the Green Drop report, compiled by the water affairs ministry, only 45 percent of waste-water systems assessed scored more than 50 percent.
> 
> Half of municipalities did not take part in the report which was compiled from 2008 to last year.
> 
> Business Day said the report was meant to be released in November but had been kept under wraps.
> 
> It was expected to be made public on Wednesday.


Well we must be positive.... if there is 100 000 000 000 litres of water treated anually that means that 7 000 000 000 litres meets the pass mark!! And that is a lot of water!!:eyebrows:

We will probably see the following on the home coming revolution website......... "The great purification infrastructure in RSA supplies 7 000 000 000 litres of treated water anually... please come home see, the water is safe to drink"


----------



## Halo

zambezi.king said:


> Well we must be positive.... if there is 100 000 000 000 litres of water treated anually that means that 7 000 000 000 litres meets the pass mark!! And that is a lot of water!!:eyebrows:
> 
> We will probably see the following on the home coming revolution website......... "The great purification infrastructure in RSA supplies 7 000 000 000 litres of treated water anually... please come home see, the water is safe to drink"


You made a few typo's
That's the "home conning revulsion" website good sir.


----------



## zambezi.king

Halo said:


> You made a few typo's
> That's the "home conning revulsion" website good sir.


Sorry I thought it was "home conning delusion".... for the inner ostrich in you


----------



## xkamehameha

I want to move back too but with all the problems and stuff, its not wise. Not right now. I'd wait a while because I'm sure the tension is still high with the killing of terreblanche etc


----------



## Halo

xkamehameha said:


> I want to move back too but with all the problems and stuff, its not wise. Not right now. I'd wait a while because I'm sure the tension is still high with the killing of terreblanche etc


Perhaps its Southampton


----------



## aprilfifth

anyone noticed that almost all comments here are from ex pats i.e. people having left SA.
i came here 8 years ago. i have used my brains and experienced almost no problems. exceptions being wanting to (and nearly succeeding) ripping the heads off the local drivers, they are terrible.
my ex wife lives here too. she lives alone with my young kids half the time. no probs
my kids go to schools that rival anything that my eldest did in the uk(private school) at a fraction of the price. my kids live an outdoor and healthy life. 
the sun shines most days
unfortunately there are millions and i mean millions of people living in squallor that i wouldnt let my dog experience. the violence is bred on these townships, the police are frightened to react without being mob handed and anarchy rules most of the time.
the ***** man settles his arguaments with a panga (slong knife) and the deaths from such attacks are more often fatal. therefore there are many township murders. therefore fact- most murders exclude white victims (suppose that excludes most on this site)
as for the farm murders. yes they are there. they are real and terrible.
the city violence is also there but driven by either drugs or the above conditions.
me: i try to improve someone elses day every day. i also have a state of the art alarm system.

earlier there is an article on this thread about someone being burgled continuously, why doesnt the guy fit an alarm?

anyway i have opened myself up to the retribution of the safa's who feel that the democratisation of this country has seen its downfall

go boys


----------



## Daxk

Quick question, April5th,
you ever had a gun at your head and or a gun at your wifes?
ever had your children threatened?


----------



## aprilfifth

Daxk said:


> Quick question, April5th,
> you ever had a gun at your head and or a gun at your wifes?
> ever had your children threatened?


hi daxk

yes i have thanks.

not enjoyable, the guy even pulled the hammer back, i heard the click and felt the cold steel on my forehead.

feel better?

ps keep away from the car bombs etc.


----------



## Daxk

Nope, i had a knife at my throat, a couple of rounds fired at me on the Jukskei bridge which missed, the plain clothes cops took out the two at the Allandale T-Junction who were at my car while I was standing 50 yards awy by then, and the Tokarev at my face and what looked like a S&W 38 Special in my wifes mouth all shook us up, but what the hell, its Africa, right?
but the 4 out on bail of R50 each in my driveway on a sunday morning, pointing at my 5 yo daughter and showing what they were going to do to her, (obviously if I testified as I had picked them out at the line-up)that changed my mind.

So, unlike you, its my Country but not my home, my mother lives there, my siblings live there because much as tho they would like to, they cannot get out.
You are welcome to go there and better it, but unless you are prepared to guarantee that anyone else just being clever will get away with it, because you have managed to for 8 years, stop trying to minimise the danger, its there.
and no-one can be 110% vigilant all the time, complacency creeps in.

Unless you have some ideas, I live in the Rep of Ireland, its very peaceful, no car bombs, very few murders, and the justice system works.
crap weather, but other than a car accident, I dont have to worry about wife and daughter much, you?


----------



## jojo

Without wishing to trivialise anything, how about those who feel safe and happy there, live there and those who dont, dont live there! Which I would say, sums up the conversation. Any other business??? 

Jo xxx


----------



## Daxk

Jojo, I would agree unless people misled or trivialised the very real danger by intimating that if you are careful, or clever and avoid going to bad places, you will be ok .

Unfortunately, none of the above are true when it happens in your own home.
If Expats to SA go well informed, good, SA needs them. I wish them well.
but be aware.


----------



## zambezi.king

jojo said:


> Without wishing to trivialise anything, how about those who feel safe and happy there, live there and those who dont, dont live there! Which I would say, sums up the conversation. Any other business???
> 
> Jo xxx


Not quite... there are a great many people that would love to live somewhere else but are not able to. I wish for things to get better but as they stand at the moment they are dicey.

It is my opinion that if someone from outside SA asks about the situation here they should be given facts pertinent to their situation... not the type of answer that could potentially put them in a dangerous situation or leads them to regret their arrival. 

Fact: You are *FAR, FAR *more likely to be a victim of violent crime here than London, Perth, Berlin etc.

Those that choose to live here... good luck I hope it works for you but the facts are the facts.


----------



## aprilfifth

Daxk said:


> Nope, i had a knife at my throat, a couple of rounds fired at me on the Jukskei bridge which missed, the plain clothes cops took out the two at the Allandale T-Junction who were at my car while I was standing 50 yards awy by then, and the Tokarev at my face and what looked like a S&W 38 Special in my wifes mouth all shook us up, but what the hell, its Africa, right?
> but the 4 out on bail of R50 each in my driveway on a sunday morning, pointing at my 5 yo daughter and showing what they were going to do to her, (obviously if I testified as I had picked them out at the line-up)that changed my mind.
> 
> So, unlike you, its my Country but not my home, my mother lives there, my siblings live there because much as tho they would like to, they cannot get out.
> You are welcome to go there and better it, but unless you are prepared to guarantee that anyone else just being clever will get away with it, because you have managed to for 8 years, stop trying to minimise the danger, its there.
> and no-one can be 110% vigilant all the time, complacency creeps in.
> 
> Unless you have some ideas, I live in the Rep of Ireland, its very peaceful, no car bombs, very few murders, and the justice system works.
> crap weather, but other than a car accident, I dont have to worry about wife and daughter much, you?


sorry to hear of your experience.

in return, i had a very good friend in the london trouble, she was on the bus that was ripped apart. massive injuries and a horrible prolonged death. in the so called heart of civilisation.
i love my country but i dont like what the socialists have done to it.
the local saying is something like this:
the earth has been reorganised, the north pole is still there, so to is the south pole. but every other pole is in the hand out queue in england.

anyway i dont slam my country.why should you.
this country has much to offer, especially someone from the cold and damp existence we brits grew up with. i personally have many friends from the non white community and they are all very positive, pro rainbow nation and also concerned re the violence and causes

enjoy the weather


----------



## Halo

aprilfifth said:


> hi daxk
> 
> yes i have thanks.
> 
> not enjoyable, the guy even pulled the hammer back, i heard the click and felt the cold steel on my forehead.
> 
> feel better?
> 
> ps keep away from the car bombs etc.


You can't be for real.... but perhaps you like that type of excitement... most of us just want peaceful and safe lives.


----------



## Halo

LOL, the big plus in SA - The Weather..... You would swear the rest of the world somehow doesn't have good weather/scenery either..... 

PS Hence why so many South Africans are in Australia... Its SA without the crime - Its also why I will be leaving as soon as I have another Passport for the kids.


----------



## aprilfifth

Halo said:


> LOL, the big plus in SA - The Weather..... You would swear the rest of the world somehow doesn't have good weather/scenery either.....
> 
> PS Hence why so many South Africans are in Australia... Its SA without the crime - Hence why I will be leaving as soon as I have another Passport for the kids.


and here there are many many poms that live happily. around my neck of the woods there is a very large ex pat community. and there are many that would also come if the visa laws werent so tough for poms.
enjoy the nanny state of aussy. it may be for you but not everyone.


i seem to be answering your pontifications on too many threads. i have asked on another: why did you stay so long here if you hate it that much? and as a pom you get automatic entry into aussy? why the necessity for another passport?


----------



## Halo

aprilfifth said:


> and here there are many many poms that live happily. around my neck of the woods there is a very large ex pat community. and there are many that would also come if the visa laws werent so tough for poms.
> enjoy the nanny state of aussy. it may be for you but not everyone.
> 
> 
> i seem to be answering your pontifications on too many threads. i have asked on another: why did you stay so long here if you hate it that much? and as a pom you get automatic entry into aussy? why the necessity for another passport?


I'm sure they are - Until something happens... Many can't afford to go back any more and big-it-up a little more than the average JO - They also get some nice £'s in which makes their lives that bit better. 
Its also not for me.

I have answered that on another thread and numerous times.... I was to young to leave. I left when I had the means. (You must remember that with the indoctrination of the 70's/80's you did not know any better and the country was safe as houses.... This also proves you know little of South Africa's true history)


----------



## aprilfifth

daxk

i just took a look at postings here wondering why you are so anti south africa. i was dismayed sad and sympathetic when you told me about your "incident".
why have you told a different story on another thread?
i quote from it by cutting and pasting...
-------------------------------------------

Kindly quote where I have told people not to move to SA.

Kindly show where I have shown hate.

I dont return on Holiday, Tompitman.
I still have investments there.
I have a mother who lives there.
I'm not convinced I'll be murdered you idiot,
I removed a real threat to my then 5 year old daughters life as well a my wifes
if I testified against the 4 young criminals who spent an hour in my house with my wife and I while my daughter hid in the bushes when they were searching for her.

so when you have walked in my shoes and shown this to your wife, then pass comment.
in the meantime, will you take personal responsibility for your comments? 

--------------------------------------------------
this doesnt seem to match your story of a car jacking/ holdup?

or are you confused in your trauma?


----------



## Daxk

I dont have to answer your question but i will.
I was mugged at knifepoint in Bree Street Johannesburg by 4 guys who pinned my arms while the lunch traffic, including two SAPS officers flowed around us.

on the old Pretoria rd approaching the Jukskei bridge I had a large ,older BMW on my bumper with his headlights on, a bakkie(you should know what that is by now was on the other side of the bridge on the sand side part, I realised I was in trouble, he started pulling across the Midrand end of the bridge, its uphill on the sand, there was a lot of dust as he spun his wheels, fortunately for me when his back wheels hit tar he shot almost right to the other side, I went through, I saw the guy on the back of the bakkie, I saw the flashes, I was in second gear redlining my my BM I got through.
Bullet holes through the right front wing and one through the door and floorpan next to my legs.
It looked like an AK when i saw it, SAPS thought so too.

Allandale rd to the t-junction at Thembisa rd where you turn right towards Kempton behind AE&CI
rear view mirror, saw guy jump out of back door and start running towards me, traffic ahead, out of the car and into veldt, two plainclothes cops in car behind jumped out and shot both the one at the drivers door as well as the other one who was running away, they arrested the driver.
Took the wife out for dinner in 2004, as I pulled into driveway, car behind me, 4 young black males, all armed, out of my car, they started dragging my wife to the bushes when there was a bang of the back door as the baby sitter got my 5 year old daughter out of the house.
Gun in my wifes mouth, I unlocked the house, they took us inside and looked for the baby sitter in the back yard, I opened the safe, they took my firearms and documents and left in my car.
they were arrested.
I identified them they got out on bail they visited me.

I await your apology.


----------



## Daxk

As I said to Tompitman,
show this to your wife too.
I dont care what you think.
You are sofar doing what every other expat of positivity has done.
arrived and started telling people who dont fit into your little world that they are wrong.

I still have business interests and investments there as , quite honestly, cashing them in was unnecessary.
My mother is still alive, I still own my own home there, I still have two cars there, I talk to my office and family there almost every day...
but...I dont like the failure of the criminal justice sytem, I dont like the failure of infrastructure, I dont like how angry the masses are getting at a lack of service delivery, the corruption does not impact me but the increased taxation does.

and I dont like idiots.


----------



## Daxk

aprilfifth said:


> sorry to hear of your experience.
> 
> in return, i had a very good friend in the london trouble, she was on the bus that was ripped apart. massive injuries and a horrible prolonged death. in the so called heart of civilisation.
> i love my country but i dont like what the socialists have done to it.
> the local saying is something like this:
> the earth has been reorganised, the north pole is still there, so to is the south pole. but every other pole is in the hand out queue in england.
> 
> anyway i dont slam my country.why should you.
> this country has much to offer, especially someone from the cold and damp existence we brits grew up with. i personally have many friends from the non white community and they are all very positive, pro rainbow nation and also concerned re the violence and causes
> 
> enjoy the weather


I'm trying to relate how, whatwas it? 83 people killed in a terrorist attack and socialisms failure relates to wether or not you survive SA?

PS: thanks, I would prefer more sunshine, but its nice togo for walks without the 9 mil.


----------



## Halo

jojo said:


> Without wishing to trivialise anything, how about those who feel safe and happy there, live there and those who dont, dont live there! Which I would say, sums up the conversation. Any other business???
> 
> Jo xxx


Unfortunately you are....


----------



## Daxk

will this take long?


----------



## aprilfifth

Daxk said:


> As I said to Tompitman,
> show this to your wife too.
> I dont care what you think.
> You are sofar doing what every other expat of positivity has done.
> arrived and started telling people who dont fit into your little world that they are wrong.
> 
> I still have business interests and investments there as , quite honestly, cashing them in was unnecessary.
> My mother is still alive, I still own my own home there, I still have two cars there, I talk to my office and family there almost every day...
> but...I dont like the failure of the criminal justice sytem, I dont like the failure of infrastructure, I dont like how angry the masses are getting at a lack of service delivery, the corruption does not impact me but the increased taxation does.
> 
> and I dont like idiots.


neither do i and your story does not hold water. the two tales you tell are not the same.
in my book you are not telling the truth. only a fool or an idiot would tell a story two different ways.

i never said i love all the things you mention here. i am certainly conscious of these things you say and try to do something about it. not moan and walk away. i go to the local school and feed all of the kids. it costs me little. i look after my staff and families, keep them safe and cared for. i stop at the lights and give to the beggars, it may save them from stealing to feed themselves or their kids. i smile, say hello and be positive. simply i try to make a difference.

my rose coloured spectacles are well worn out and so is my patience with fools. answer why your stories contradict you. why are you lying to make your biased point.

live your life in "safety" that is your priveledge but dont keep *****ing about what other people want especially with a brewed up story.


----------



## Daxk

The only difference in the story is in your reading of it, I dont have to justify to you or to prove it it you.
Its what happened to us, if you choose to try and discount it thats your problem.

as to what a great philanthropist you are, I am glad you give to others, its your choice but actually has no relevance here,

You have attacked those who are critical of this paradise you have chosen to inhabit for a short space of time.
you try and denounce and decry those who criticise based on fact.
and then try and twist it.
you accused me of slagging off the country, post links.


----------



## Daxk

"my rose coloured spectacles are well worn out and so is my patience with fools. answer why your stories contradict you. why are you lying to make your biased point.

live your life in "safety" that is your priveledge but dont keep *****ing about what other people want especially with a brewed up story"

Theres no difference. 
No contradiction.
no lies

why are you trying to minimise what are very real problems by telling people to look at the sunset and enjoy the weather.

i asked earlier,(still unanswered) your business related to either Real Estate or Tourism?
do you have a vested interest?


----------



## zambezi.king

Silence from Aprilfith I see... must be in the tourism industry, they are notorious for never getting back to you and never give you the full picture! 

As mentioned before, give up your escape route (brit passport) as well as your Brit pension that you are no doubt supplementing your income with. You say you support various staff and their families and give to all the beggars... this would lead me to believe that you are quite well off. I suppose you live in a good safe suburb, don't use public transport, don't have to brave the inner cities too often, your kids are in good (private?) schools in good (affluent) areas. I further suppose that you have a large fence/wall with armed response etc etc etc... you are not living like the rest of the indigenous population that do face the crime and you are not living like 90% of the expats that might arrive due to you bias drivel!

The phrase "I'm alright Jack" springs to mind!

Think about it... why would South Africans slag off thier own country and leave all their family and friends and idillic way of life? Surely we can't ALL be deluded / racist / nostalgic / angry. Or maybe we are all just spiteful liars and don't want South Africa for ourselves and neither for anyone else.

My impression of you is one of someone who discards the facts that don't gel with their own version of the truth, will call anyone a liar even though they have proved their story or simply if you refuse to see their point. 

You say you have lived here for 8 years and nothing has ever happened to you, well there are people here that have lived for 80 years and nothing has happened to them. This does not mean that there is not a problem and that it does happen to tens of thousands every year. If you really want to give advice to people who are asking for it then please give the facts, if you are going to give your opinion or personal experience then please state clearly that is what it is.

The facts are the facts and I think you are doing a dis-service to not only the future expats but also the local population by ignoring or trivialising the very obvious problems. You made refernce to whinging poms earlier... whinge they might but look what they have... low crime, effective police force, NHS, social security, superb infrastructure etc. If you don't whinge then nothing gets done and no whinging leads people (politicians) to believe you are happy with the status quo... are you?


----------



## aprilfifth

zambezi.king said:


> Silence from Aprilfith I see... must be in the tourism industry, they are notorious for never getting back to you and never give you the full picture!
> 
> As mentioned before, give up your escape route (brit passport) as well as your Brit pension that you are no doubt supplementing your income with. You say you support various staff and their families and give to all the beggars... this would lead me to believe that you are quite well off. I suppose you live in a good safe suburb, don't use public transport, don't have to brave the inner cities too often, your kids are in good (private?) schools in good (affluent) areas. I further suppose that you have a large fence/wall with armed response etc etc etc... you are not living like the rest of the indigenous population that do face the crime and you are not living like 90% of the expats that might arrive due to you bias drivel!
> 
> The phrase "I'm alright Jack" springs to mind!
> 
> Think about it... why would South Africans slag off thier own country and leave all their family and friends and idillic way of life? Surely we can't ALL be deluded / racist / nostalgic / angry. Or maybe we are all just spiteful liars and don't want South Africa for ourselves and neither for anyone else.
> 
> My impression of you is one of someone who discards the facts that don't gel with their own version of the truth, will call anyone a liar even though they have proved their story or simply if you refuse to see their point.
> 
> You say you have lived here for 8 years and nothing has ever happened to you, well there are people here that have lived for 80 years and nothing has happened to them. This does not mean that there is not a problem and that it does happen to tens of thousands every year. If you really want to give advice to people who are asking for it then please give the facts, if you are going to give your opinion or personal experience then please state clearly that is what it is.
> 
> The facts are the facts and I think you are doing a dis-service to not only the future expats but also the local population by ignoring or trivialising the very obvious problems. You made refernce to whinging poms earlier... whinge they might but look what they have... low crime, effective police force, NHS, social security, superb infrastructure etc. If you don't whinge then nothing gets done and no whinging leads people (politicians) to believe you are happy with the status quo... are you?


yawn yawn yawn. 
wingeing safa of note.

nothing right for you hey. try moaning to the aussies about your conditions. your tirade against me wont alter the fact that you are a classic traitor of your country.

i will not respond to your diatribe, if you do then it is only you trying to justify your pessimism and again simply you have to live with yourself. next time you look in the mirror say hello to that fool for me.
bye bye


----------



## aprilfifth

and ...

i joined this site to meet people and discuss positive things.

all i have met are wingeing safa's whoa are notorious even in their own country for their pessimism.

they jump ship to sponge on the so called safe societies and moan and moan about their own country.

now here i am, a positive person spending time answering their hangups.

gentlemen (and i use that term loosely) i am bored with your patriotic fervour and your cowardly actions.

i will leave you to your personal rain storms. enjoy your lives in your adopted countries. i am doing.

to anyone asking serious questions about south africa i suggest you realise these people have a major identiy crisis since the political changes and cannot and will not adjust. living here you hear it daily. this place aint perfect by any means but it will do for me and countless thousands of other ex pats. 

and one last thing


i am off to a braii (if you guys forgot what that is then i will remind you. its an outdoor barbacue. in the sunshine with friends).

goodbye.


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## Halo

aprilfifth said:


> yawn yawn yawn.
> wingeing safa of note.
> 
> nothing right for you hey. try moaning to the aussies about your conditions. your tirade against me wont alter the fact that you are a classic traitor of your country.
> 
> bye bye


First the race card... now the traitor card.... PAR for the course.


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## Daxk

Yawn! what is it with these kids?
arrive, troll, accuse people of all sorts of things and then depart ,usually with epithets.
and then make up a new nickname when they cannot remember their password.

Jojo,
I take extreme offence at being called a liar by this poster, I respectfully ask for a ban on his ip.


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## vegasboy

aprilfifth said:


> and ...
> 
> i joined this site to meet people and discuss positive things.
> 
> all i have met are wingeing safa's whoa are notorious even in their own country for their pessimism.
> 
> they jump ship to sponge on the so called safe societies and moan and moan about their own country.
> 
> now here i am, a positive person spending time answering their hangups.
> 
> gentlemen (and i use that term loosely) i am bored with your patriotic fervour and your cowardly actions.
> 
> i will leave you to your personal rain storms. enjoy your lives in your adopted countries. i am doing.
> 
> to anyone asking serious questions about south africa i suggest you realise these people have a major identiy crisis since the political changes and cannot and will not adjust. living here you hear it daily. this place aint perfect by any means but it will do for me and countless thousands of other ex pats.
> 
> and one last thing
> 
> 
> i am off to a braii (if you guys forgot what that is then i will remind you. its an outdoor barbacue. in the sunshine with friends).
> 
> goodbye.


 Aprilfifth, I hope your "good bye" means that we will not have to endure anymore of your degrading and slanderous accusations on this forum. You insult those who are clearly in pain due to suffering and violent harm inflicted on them in a country known to have the most violent crimes in the world. You don't give a f* insulting a person who has personally endured the most horendous violent attacks, and feel it his duty to let visitors to this country be informed by sharing his personal experiences, calling him a liar. 

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. Unfortunately, you have removed all doubt with your posts. Good bye and good riddance,... enjoy your braii.:tongue1:


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## Daxk

Thanks vegasboy, but I am certainly not in pain and suffering and contrary to popular belief neither am I paranoid, bitter, twisted or suffering from Post traumatic stress.
just irritated.


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## zambezi.king

Aprilfifth,

Typical... you have little understanding and simply resort to personal attacks when your "arguement" falls to pieces. Being childish and personal only proves my initial assessment of you was on the mark. Stick to the facts. 

You say you joined this forum to meet people and discuss positive things... then why did you come wading into this thread?

If the all you have met is whinging Safas then do us all a favour and go somewhere else. You have yet to refute any points I or anyone else has made. To simply say that you won't lower yourself... childish response from someone who has no FACTS to back-up his arguements.

As for sponging off other countries... how do you think the UK got so rich... by the likes of Anglo and Lonrho repatriating thier wealth back to the UK, its was the colonies that made the UK rich... FACT! If you are going to argue start using them please.

_to anyone asking serious questions about south africa i suggest you realise these people have a major identiy crisis since the political changes and cannot and will not adjust_
Once again no facts just bias opinion if you want facts regarding crime / crime rates etc they are out there and as for the political angle... even the president aknowledges the serious crime issue. It is also known worldwide - by nearly every living soul... it would seem the only people who deny this are those that are trying to either convince someone to come live here or to justify their own discisions.

As to your remarks about me and my character, coming from the likes of you I will take that as a compliment, it makes as much sense as your arguement... like the penguins say... "smile and wave boys, smile and wave"


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## jojo

Right now lets calm down. If you have an issue with anything posted on here, or indeed anywhere else on the forum please click on the little "exclamation" sign on the top of the offending post, that will alert the moderators. One thing that I personally dislike is "mud slinging" I dont like it when my children do it and I certainly dont like seeing adults doing in writing on an open forum! It achieves absolutely nothing, its not even productive or useful. The issues in SA havent been solved by any of this have they! So please try not to get sucked into a squabble

Jo xxx


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## mman

aprilfifth said:


> all i have met are wingeing safa's whoa are notorious even in their own country for their pessimism.
> they jump ship to sponge on the so called safe societies and moan and moan about their own country.


You prob shouldnt say things like that on the South African section of the forum.



aprilfifth said:


> i am off to a braii (if you guys forgot what that is then i will remind you. its an outdoor barbacue. in the sunshine with friends).


Not very important but seeing as though you were trying to be a know it all its spelt braai.

Anyways Aprilfifth i do agree that alot of these people on the forum are completly off the scale when it comes to describing South Africa i feel you are the complete opposite and dont tell the entire truth either.


----------



## kiviuq

Well I guess since SA was just another stronghold against communism held artificially alive by the "free" world through brutal slave work and extraction of natural resources, and now since communism is defeated there was no need to keep SA alive any more. So the big corporates and the US and UK gov simply withdrew their money and support and let SA handle its problems on its own terms. One contestant less on the global market for them and at the end the Asians work for less money without even being labelled as slaves.


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## Halo

kiviuq said:


> Well I guess since SA was just another stronghold against communism held artificially alive by the "free" world through brutal slave work and extraction of natural resources, and now since communism is defeated there was no need to keep SA alive any more. So the big corporates and the US and UK gov simply withdrew their money and support and let SA handle its problems on its own terms. One contestant less on the global market for them and at the end the Asians work for less money without even being labelled as slaves.


Not even close


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## vegasboy

Halo said:


> Not even close


kiviuq, your comment is so laughable and far fetched. Have you perhaps confused this forum with another one?

If you drive through aome African countries, you wil notice all the NGO's and relief projects operated by donor countries. Some African countries can hardly survive without it.


----------



## Robbbie

*Dont Move Back*

At the end of 2009, I was facing redundancy in England, working for a large Telecoms Company only 2 miles from my home. Children all settled at school, wife with large network of friends. The perfect life really, except for the relentless cold weather. You can imagine my suprise when I recieved an offer from a very reputable South African IT company to come and work for them in JHB. I came out to SA to check it out and while I was here, my UK company pulled the plug on my job. I had no option but to accept the job in SA. My wife packed up our house, put it up for let and jumped on the plane to enjoy a life changing expereince - afterall, we could always go home to England. 
Six months later, we are all nervous wrecks. The job that was offerred was not anything like I expected and as the lies during the interviews kicked in, I now find myself doing the same level one job as I was doing 20 years ago. To make matters worse, they lied about my take home salary, which after 60 % decuctions, is not enough to pay the school fees at the local school. No private schools for my children. They did not want my work experince, simply a body to run around fixing IT problems for them. What a nightmare. Once our container arrived, we could not find anywhere to live as we were told that JHB is so dangerous that you HAVE TO live in a secure complex behind a boomed area which comes in around ZAR30K per month, which was way outside our price range. Panic set in as house after house was too expensive, too small and too dangerous. At the last moment we found a builder who was knocking his house down in 2011 and woudl let us stay there for ZAR10K until the end of 2010. Fortunatley the landlord put up electric fences for us after we had nightly excursions over the fence.
With with nerves frayed from no sleep, my job failiing now as I simply cant do the low-level tasks they set for me, a lease running out and a low-level school education, we will have to return to England. 
Word of warning - this place runs on lies and deception - if you are an honest, hard working individual, DO NOT COME TO SOUTH AFRICA TO LIVE.


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## vegasboy

Robbbie said:


> At the end of 2009, I was facing redundancy in England, working for a large Telecoms Company only 2 miles from my home. Children all settled at school, wife with large network of friends. The perfect life really, except for the relentless cold weather. You can imagine my suprise when I recieved an offer from a very reputable South African IT company to come and work for them in JHB. I came out to SA to check it out and while I was here, my UK company pulled the plug on my job. I had no option but to accept the job in SA. My wife packed up our house, put it up for let and jumped on the plane to enjoy a life changing expereince - afterall, we could always go home to England.
> Six months later, we are all nervous wrecks. The job that was offerred was not anything like I expected and as the lies during the interviews kicked in, I now find myself doing the same level one job as I was doing 20 years ago. To make matters worse, they lied about my take home salary, which after 60 % decuctions, is not enough to pay the school fees at the local school. No private schools for my children. They did not want my work experince, simply a body to run around fixing IT problems for them. What a nightmare. Once our container arrived, we could not find anywhere to live as we were told that JHB is so dangerous that you HAVE TO live in a secure complex behind a boomed area which comes in around ZAR30K per month, which was way outside our price range. Panic set in as house after house was too expensive, too small and too dangerous. At the last moment we found a builder who was knocking his house down in 2011 and woudl let us stay there for ZAR10K until the end of 2010. Fortunatley the landlord put up electric fences for us after we had nightly excursions over the fence.
> With with nerves frayed from no sleep, my job failiing now as I simply cant do the low-level tasks they set for me, a lease running out and a low-level school education, we will have to return to England.
> Word of warning - this place runs on lies and deception - if you are an honest, hard working individual, DO NOT COME TO SOUTH AFRICA TO LIVE.


Robbie, your story really moved me. I hope and pray that at the end of the day, all will work out well and your family will come out stronger on the other side. Whatever you do, don't lose courage...


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## Halo

This type of story is a common one... A good mate "went back" to SA from the UK (no kids/wife etc) to live the lifestyle he once had (beach/surf etc) - After two years of hell he said he tried... but its not a life he wanted - He then moved to Australia on a skilled migration (he hated the weather in the UK).

Its all fun and games for the few who have $$$ and have not been affect by violent crime as that's something that only happens to other people.

Don't forget all you have to do is chant (hari-rama - hari-hari will do) and it will all be fine.


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## arnaud

Halo said:


> This type of story is a common one... A good mate "went back" to SA from the UK (no kids/wife etc) to live the lifestyle he once had (beach/surf etc) - After two years of hell he said he tried... but its not a life he wanted - He then moved to Australia on a skilled migration (he hated the weather in the UK).
> 
> Its all fun and games for the few who have $$$ and have not been affect by violent crime as that's something that only happens to other people.
> 
> Don't forget all you have to do is chant (hari-rama - hari-hari will do) and it will all be fine.


Anyway, who will move abroad without the necessary resources to sustain a family ?

I remember a Saffa moving to the UK for emotional reason and then starving on the street and begging for food.


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## Halo

arnaud said:


> I remember a Saffa moving to the UK for emotional reason and then starving on the street and begging for food.


If he was there legally on a visa this could not happen do to the social security offered there.


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## mman

Halo said:


> If he was there legally on a visa this could not happen do to the social security offered there.


Im pretty sure it can happen, know a person in a similar position


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## Halo

mman said:


> Im pretty sure it can happen, know a person in a similar position


Perhaps if they have a drink/drug problem..... The council will ensure that the family is fed, housed and clothed. perhaps 0.01% slip through the social net but its NOT the norm. Please refer to the statistics of homeless people in the UK. Almost all have either mental and or substance abuse problems.


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## Daxk

mman said:


> Im pretty sure it can happen, know a person in a similar position


I once did a study on income from begging in SA.

Borrowed a friends flat that gave me a good view of a popular set of traffic lights

From memory, the lights changed every 30-45 seconds or so depending on the time of day.
average of 5 cars at each light,
beggar would have time to get something from 1-2 cars within the light change period.

the lowest average was that beggar only got something once per every two light changes. (off peak times) ie once per minute.
subjective survey was that the average donation was a R2 coin.

so, R2 per minute, working for an 8 hour day, 22.2 days per month gave an income of just over R10k per month, tax free.


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## pegleg

Daxk said:


> I once did a study on income from begging in SA.
> 
> Borrowed a friends flat that gave me a good view of a popular set of traffic lights
> 
> From memory, the lights changed every 30-45 seconds or so depending on the time of day.
> average of 5 cars at each light,
> beggar would have time to get something from 1-2 cars within the light change period.
> 
> the lowest average was that beggar only got something once per every two light changes. (off peak times) ie once per minute.
> subjective survey was that the average donation was a R2 coin.
> 
> so, R2 per minute, working for an 8 hour day, 22.2 days per month gave an income of just over R10k per month, tax free.


 Very true!
There was a couple who, from the proceeds of their begging managed to buy a flat in durban and a new toyota conquest Hatch back /fast back.

Then there was a story on sunday's Carte blanche on Mnet (TV) about beggars using Rented children to help with the begging "The oh, shame, lets give the beggar more money beacause the children must eat, etc".
The beggars were renting the children for R20 per day.
The children were, while under hidden camera from Carte blanche journalists shown to have passed out from heat exhaustion on the backs of the Beggars or left lying on the pavement.

It clearly shows the lenghts that "People" will go to, to commit crime, albeit begging is not normally a crime in SA, because it "Has" become socially acceptable to do so.


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## mman

pegleg said:


> Very true!
> There was a couple who, from the proceeds of their begging managed to buy a flat in durban and a new toyota conquest Hatch back /fast back.


I dont believe that


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## Halo

mman said:


> I dont believe that


iafrica.com | news | sa news R20 to rent out kids


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## mman

Halo said:


> iafrica.com | news | sa news R20 to rent out kids


That article says nothing about a house and car


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## Halo

mman said:


> That article says nothing about a house and car


Never said it did but you can do math, not so?...... If thats a "ordinary" beggar - imagine what a "enterprising" one can do.


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## pegleg

Halo said:


> Never said it did but you can do math, not so?...... If thats a "ordinary" beggar - imagine what a "enterprising" one can do.


No, this was not in the Carte blanche show, but it really did happen. . .These "Beggars" were operating in NELSPRUIT, my home town in South Africa. There is a very high concentration of wealthy people staying there as many elderly go there to retire, etc.

Those beggars were exposed in the late 90's, if memory serves me correct, by the local news paper "The Lowvelder".
Why it stuck in my head then was the audacity of people to do that when at that time it was still fairly taboo, especially in Nelspruit of all places. 
Most beggars defend their "Turf" as was tested by individuals in Nelspruit last year - 4 way intersection opposite Game stores and "Crossings" shopping centre. Please enquire at the "Lowvelder" newspaper for all the facts 

Many things that happen never even reaches national level or international for that matter. . .If they did, there would be no space for any advertising or any other articles!!!

I have personally seen two individuals who begged outside the "Checkers" shopping centre climb into an Audi 500SE - +-94 model after their "working" day, while waiting for my wife to complete her shopping!
I have lived in this country ALL my life, there's nothing anyone else can tell me that will ever show otherwise. . .


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## kiviuq

vegasboy said:


> kiviuq, your comment is so laughable and far fetched. Have you perhaps confused this forum with another one?
> 
> If you drive through aome African countries, you wil notice all the NGO's and relief projects operated by donor countries. Some African countries can hardly survive without it.


I wasn't talking about humanitarian efforts by NGO's and others in other African countries. I was talking about big money, the international financial industry, money lending, arms industries and the sudden and swift withdrawal of large amount of investment capital out of the country once it stopped being a strategic stronghold for US interests during the cold war. 

Try to remember how the US was once the biggest obstacle in bringing down the apartheid regime. Seeing them vetoing again and again against any UN resolution that would address the problem of apartheid injustice in favour for the black oppressed majority, it is clear to me how big money made huge profits under the US military umbrella by money lending, selling military goods and extraction of natural resources (uran etc.). Remarkably similar to the current US-Israel relationship, but that's another topic.

How the advent of the perestroika relates to the simultaneous decline of apartheid SA is definitely no coincidence.


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## BBJ

*The Big Money*

I think you'll find "the BIG money" as you put it, wasn't withdrawn due to any political reasoning connected with the end of Apartheid. Although it is tempting to cast the US as the villain all the time, they simply like to do profitable business (honestly or dishonestly thats not really the point here). Every financial indicator in almost every African country sadly shows that with the advent of independence (or the removal of the colonial oppressors as some like to say) corruption starts, civil war often raises its head and economies start to crumble. Thats not to say that every man shouldn't have the right to vote for self rule, its just a fact. To take SA as an example about 8 years ago they sold Gold Futures on their domestic production to the US at ± 350 per ounce, they took the money and spent it. Now thats OK if you produce the Gold that you have sold the futures on, but when you fire the people that know what they are doing and replace them with BEE workers without experience, its a recipe for disaster. Result? South Africa sold Gold at 350 it now nearer a 1,000, and they haven't even mined all the Gold that they sold the futures on. It's the same with the nuclear power station at Melkbosstrand, they fired every white guy to replace them with BEE, result? bolts are dropped into a reactor, and the entire power station comes to a grinding halt for 4 months, what do they have do? re-employ experienced operators but this time at 3 times the price on contract.

So in short, its pure economics that forces money out of Africa and Greed that trickles money in. As Bob Geldorf said after touring the wrecks of all the food projects set up by Live Aid...... Never again! I have lived in africa for many many years, and the adage give a man a fish, teach a man to fish simply does not work in Africa, it remains "SEND FISH"......


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## Halo

BBJ said:


> So in short, its pure economics that forces money out of Africa and Greed that trickles money in. As Bob Geldorf said after touring the wrecks of all the food projects set up by Live Aid...... Never again! I have lived in africa for many many years, and the adage give a man a fish, teach a man to fish simply does not work in Africa, it remains "SEND FISH"......


Its a sad but an undeniable reality of Africa............ Just as democracy and Islam are incompatible, so is Tribalism although its funny how both function way better with an ignorance populous. (PS Hate from lies also helps heaps)


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## vegasboy

BBJ said:


> So in short, its pure economics that forces money out of Africa and Greed that trickles money in. As Bob Geldorf said after touring the wrecks of all the food projects set up by Live Aid...... Never again! I have lived in africa for many many years, and the adage give a man a fish, teach a man to fish simply does not work in Africa, it remains "SEND FISH"......


 Can you perhaps provide a reference or link for this quote, I would like to use it...


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## AFRIKA

this is a country where the minority oppressive population own 80% of the farm land.the government is buying back the land at market related prices to give back to the rightful owners,but many farmers refuse to co-operate just like in zimbabwe.in many parts of south africa nothing has changed since democracy. the white elite still own this countries resources and control the economy.these are people who we treated worse than animals and all they doing after freedom is negotiating to share this country with everyone .majority of blacks are unbelievably simple and friendly.the few youths who feel the governments negotiating with the minority for a peaceful outcome is futile take matters into their own hands.Any other nation that was oppressed like the blacks where and still are in africa wuold react differently.europeans would have slaughtered everyone of their oppresses and the world would have turned a blind eye.
WE ARE IN THEIR COUNTRY AND WE WANT TO NEGOTIATE WITH EVRY DIRTY TRICK POSSIBLE.
South africa will work just like India and South America, we just need to keep our hands out of cookie jar ,we raped these countries for millenia and murdered millions in the name of the church,lets help build these countries and if we die trying it would be better than being cynical cowards.


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## BBJ

20,000 years ago, no one gave the white man a free ticket. As we walked out of our prehistoric caves, no one said you can be rich, resourceful, invent things, create art, music, literature and build great civilisations; exactly the same as no one said to the African "don't". The internal combustion engine, TV, telephone, space exploration, micro surgery, virtually every technological advance on the planet has "not" come from Africa. The recent history of Africa is slaughter and genocide; Ethopia, Somalia, Ruanda, Zimbabwe, Chad, Ivory Coast the list is never-ending and it is one of "send money or aid". When is Africa going to do something for themselves? I lived there for almost 20 years watching friends and associates get murdered, shot, stabbed, gang-raped.

Zimbabwe has been controlled by Mugabe for what seems like a century, what good has he done, is this still the white mans fault today when 80 year old grandmothers are pulled out of their homes and raped?

Personally I think the "educated white man" during the of Africa colonialisation committed the biggest failing a human being can; they had the education, they knew better, and they still committed evil acts of atrocity against the black people of Africa, BUT that doesn't get Africa off the hook for the crime, corruption, slaughter and genocide of today. They need to pull their act together and feed themselves, not keep asking the world to "send money". Africa cannot keep blaming Queen Victoria for Bob Mugabe's mistakes.

ps have you SEEN personally what has happened to the repossessed farm land? Are they productive farms? No, they have been turned into unproductive squatter camps, where most of the crops they do manage to grow are just stolen at night.

pps. You are very mistaken if you think you have a choice "not" to co-operate in Zimbabwe, they normally make both the white farmers drink battery acid!!!


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## Halo

What's all this about whites doing this and that - Its no more or no less than the African did tribes since year dot. The only thing was that a stronger, more advanced tribe came and conquered and for some reason (civility) did not wipe them off the face of the earth as African tribes used to do. 

I think people need a history lesson.

PS When are we going to give Genghis Kahn's people the land back?
PPS Where do you draw the line?


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## DannyBoy

AFRIKA said:


> this is a country where the minority oppressive population own 80% of the farm land....
> South africa will work just like India and South America, we just need to keep our hands out of cookie jar ,we raped these countries for millenia and murdered millions in the name of the church,lets help build these countries and if we die trying it would be better than being cynical cowards.


AFRIKA from Portugal and kiviuq from Germany have now gone off topic. The one mumbles about white oppression the other about U.S and Israel and wot-not.
The topic was about LIVING IN SOUTH AFRICA...PERIOD.

Since my last posting, many months ago, things in the U.S have deteriorated to a TWILIGHT ZONE condition.
Unemployment is through the roof.
The Economy is stumbling like a dying dinosaur.
Housing prices dropped another 20%
More troops are being sent to Afghanistan.
49 American troops were killed in Afghanistan this month (June 2010)
The sea water in the gulf changed to Grade A Plus Quality oil with the massive BP oil spill
It's just one catastrophe after another.

To make matters worse my Unemployment Insurance ran out and I am now living under a bridge in Louisvile Kentucky, in a cardboard box.
I spend my days at Union Station standing around with a paper cup in my hand asking anybody and everybody for "Spare Change" so that I can buy a ticket back to the "land of milk and honey" called South africa.


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## Halo

DannyBoy said:


> To make matters worse my Unemployment Insurance ran out and I am now living under a bridge in Louisvile Kentucky, in a cardboard box.
> I spend my days at Union Station standing around with a paper cup in my hand asking anybody and everybody for "Spare Change" so that I can buy a ticket back to the "land of milk and honey" called South africa.


Frying pan into the fire comes to mind  - Best you enjoy that bridge.


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## vegasboy

AFRIKA said:


> this is a country where the minority oppressive population own 80% of the farm land.the government is buying back the land at market related prices to give back to the rightful owners,but many farmers refuse to co-operate just like in zimbabwe.in many parts of south africa nothing has changed since democracy. the white elite still own this countries resources and control the economy.these are people who we treated worse than animals and all they doing after freedom is negotiating to share this country with everyone .majority of blacks are unbelievably simple and friendly.the few youths who feel the governments negotiating with the minority for a peaceful outcome is futile take matters into their own hands.Any other nation that was oppressed like the blacks where and still are in africa wuold react differently.europeans would have slaughtered everyone of their oppresses and the world would have turned a blind eye.
> WE ARE IN THEIR COUNTRY AND WE WANT TO NEGOTIATE WITH EVRY DIRTY TRICK POSSIBLE.
> South africa will work just like India and South America, we just need to keep our hands out of cookie jar ,we raped these countries for millenia and murdered millions in the name of the church,lets help build these countries and if we die trying it would be better than being cynical cowards.


 Give back to rightful owners? If you want to apply that theory the land must be given back to the khoi. Apartheid was an awful mistake, period. You have one culture that have a DNA or tendency (white tendency - Malema) for generations, to build, develop, create, and they have a tendency to preserve for their descendants, so they can build and expand and better on the previous generations work. 

Then you have other cultures, and let me put this straight for the record, I have wonderful great, professional, forward thinking, salt of the earth black friends who do not fall in this group, with tendencies to destroy, demand, break down, steal, the little they have. Now keep on carrying those tendencies over to future generations and you will have a *distortion* of 80% of the land belonging to so called whites a few years later. (You get some pretty low class lazy whites too). 

*Distortion:* A consequence of such a change, especially a *lack of fidelity *in reception or reproduction.

*Fidelity:* Faithfulness to obligations, duties, or observances.

You don't address those distortions by demanding more and doing less and destroying the little you have. The time is now for those who have suffered through apartheid to take on a new DNA (genetics appearing in or characteristic of successive generations), so your descendants can have a culture of "let's take whatever is in my hand, and build upon that", rather than "what is yours is now mine, and I'm going to take it."


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## BBJ

*Kentucky vs SA ?*

Danny Boy is living under a bridge in Kentucky with an internet connection available. If you can'y make it in the States what makes you think you can make it in SA? South Africa is probably the only country in the world with a constitution that enshrines colour prejudice. The BEE or Black Economic Empowerment act actively not only encourages but makes it law to prejudice one colour against another. 40% of the Stock Exchange must be owned by Black companies, one could argue that this is a progressive idea that could benefit the masses; but once again Africa have just done what they normally do..... a few rich ANC supporting directors and shareholder and screw the rest, BEE has done very little by buy a few Bentleys for a thousand or so "Black Diamonds" as they are called. You need very little talent or expertise if the country is going to legislate that you must be "given" businesses. Of course most of them just go bankrupt in a few years anyway as buying a mercedes seems to take precedence over paying their staff. The majority of the country are still heading the same way as "Mugabe land". So if I was you, I'de stay under that bridge in Kentucky if you really think SA is an easy touch.


----------



## vegasboy

DannyBoy said:


> AFRIKA from Portugal and kiviuq from Germany have now gone off topic. The one mumbles about white oppression the other about U.S and Israel and wot-not.
> The topic was about LIVING IN SOUTH AFRICA...PERIOD.
> 
> Since my last posting, many months ago, things in the U.S have deteriorated to a TWILIGHT ZONE condition.
> Unemployment is through the roof.
> The Economy is stumbling like a dying dinosaur.
> Housing prices dropped another 20%
> More troops are being sent to Afghanistan.
> 49 American troops were killed in Afghanistan this month (June 2010)
> The sea water in the gulf changed to Grade A Plus Quality oil with the massive BP oil spill
> It's just one catastrophe after another.
> 
> To make matters worse my Unemployment Insurance ran out and I am now living under a bridge in Louisvile Kentucky, in a cardboard box.
> I spend my days at Union Station standing around with a paper cup in my hand asking anybody and everybody for "Spare Change" so that I can buy a ticket back to the "land of milk and honey" called South africa.


 For someone living under a bridge you are intelligent enough to quote stats but stupid enough to underestimate ours by thinking we will believe your BS story. But then again, the US is so far advanced they now have internet access points under bridges. If you are living there, you certainly have some serious social or mental health issues. Seek help mate. And please provide a link for your Housing decilne figures. I have real estate there in Florida and we are experiencing the exact opposite...


----------



## JairajVi

Has anyone ever heard of '3G' mate...it's everywhere...lol


----------



## Unseer

So it's bad back home right? Well, maybe but here's an article you should ready about the land of the free and one of it's most cosmopolitan cities.

Violent Weekend Shootings Continue - 26 Wounded - cbs2chicago.com

Scary stuff.


----------



## Daxk

Gald I dont live in Chicago or Johannesburg or London or Limerick or Dublin or Hamburg or Marseilles..


----------



## AFRIKA

Its really sad that you have the misconception that you come from a superior race.
Eastern , South Amercian and North African civilisations had complexed societies thousands of years before europeans.

Civilisation and globalisation have caused more harm than good in this world.Advancements in medicine and healthcare are the only things that have increased lifespan,but on the other hand automobile deaths vs ease of travel,military advancements vs war...the list is endless.
Civilisation to you is technology and so on,if someone steals your car and fits it with the latest "bling" items such as air suspensions and sound sytems and so on and then they tell you that the car is better of and they will retain ownership because you have no idea of the beauty of technology,but you just wanted your classy bently and not this mettalic purple disco car. Im sure you will not have a hard time explaining to civilised people that no matter how much was spent on your car all you want is your original car back.
Now why is it so hard to get the same response about european "land grabs".


Im in RSA for the soccer and i visited rural ndwedwe were my brother is building a road for the local government. Its unbelievable that so many people still live in these areas.I spoke to the local tribal leader and he explained that the area has been inhabited by his tribe for hundreds of years and fortunately the area is hilly and is not suitable for agriculture and therfore they were spared by the invaders.These people choose to live in mud houses ,drink water from the rivers , graze their cattle and farm on a subsistence level. When the world is concerned about recession and fuel shortages and all the headache that technology has brought, these people 's lives haven't changed at all. Children and young adults speak to you with heads lowered and never make eye contact with you as a sign of respect and they will receive or give you something with both hands as a gesture of good faith.
There is no crime or poverty in these areas were there has been no outside interference.
civilisations like these are rare anywhere in the world .
On the other hand the people who lived on land suitable for farming and rich in minerals where kicked of there land and all history of there societies were erased forever . These people were herded into camps and forced into slavery and murdered if they didn't comply.
These people have a right to be bitter and now there is outcry if someone is a victim of crime from these wronged people.The behaviour of most whites in RSA is of a criminal with no remorse,dont you realise what we have done to these people. 15years after being given back their country there is an outcry from the rich coastal towns every year when these rural people come to visit the ocean and they make a mess .DON'T YOU GET IT THEY DID NOT COME TO KILL YOU BECAUSE YOU STOLE THEIR COAST,THEY JUST WANT TO ENJOY THE OCEAN YOU ENJOY EVERYDAY! and then they go back to the inhospitable hilly retreat.
If South africa ends up like Zim ,the western world will condemn the blacks for taking back their land forcibly because no one seems to understand whats going on in SA.
Everyone has a threshold and if white's attitudes dont change this threshold will be reached in SA.
Majority of big businesses and farms are still owned by whites . The few farms that have been bought by the government via a willing buyer willing seller scenario have not changed the land problem.There are a few farms that have failed since changing ownership and those that have failed are being given to the successful farmers of the land re-distribution scheme.We dont live in a perfect world ,there will be failures and success stories ,there obviously are more success stories than failures but the propaganda 'agents' have latched on the latter.The white and indian farmers who sold their land were paid handsomely but very few have done the morally right thing and mentored the new owners.Huge commercial farms that were once tribal areas have been allowed to fail in your eyes,but to these people they want to create the natural land they once had . Go visit the macambini tribal area in KZN which was a sugar farming region but now is bush .A dubai consortium saw the natural beauty of the place and offered to buy it to construct a multi billion rand development. the community refused as they said they dont want to move from their tribal land again .

The tribe is offered enough money to go retire in umhlanga ,but they choose to live in huts in the bush. These 'barbarians' have no priorities!...these are people the western world need to learn from to realise whats inner peace and contempment .


This forum is about giving reasons for people to come back to RSA and my experiences have taught me that South Africa is the best place in the world.
If you treat the africans with respect and understand that the slow transition is fruststrating alot of the displaced and younger blacks you are going to have a place in history.

p.s 
Someone asked why the ANC constantly gets voted into power although they plunder the coffers?
There is corruption in every government in the world,you would be naive to think that the huge white owned companies in SA didn;t have political connections in the NP just like the ANC is doing now ,the only difference is the media is no longer censored.
The plundering by the ANC is seen as a robin hood type scenario.The money is given to friends and family via government tenders and this money is spent in SA,its not taken to Europe and Australia and its creating wealthy black businesses who will employ black people from the community. If a white owned company with obviously better skills and technology won the tender the money will never reach the people who need it the most.A company which was oppressed now has the chance to grow its skills and technolgy and has now indirectly helped to alleviate the wrongs of the past. As for the white company ,you have made millions and you already have the holiday homes and the investments to ensure that your family will be rich forever even if you dont lift a finger till you die.


----------



## vegasboy

JairajVi said:


> Has anyone ever heard of '3G' mate...it's everywhere...lol


 And you thought a guy claiming that his "Unemployment Insurance ran out and I am now living under a bridge in Louisvile Kentucky, in a cardboard box. I spend my days at Union Station standing around with a paper cup in my hand asking anybody and everybody for "Spare Change" so that I can buy a ticket back to the "land ofmilk and honey" called South africa" can afford 3G?? ...lol. :eyebrows: The only he will be able to have access is if he can plug it in for free, courtesy the US Government.


----------



## Daxk

So when do arrive there to live?


----------



## AFRIKA

Sorry ,no more politics .

I went to the game in Bloem yesterday , SA is world class!!English and German fans love this country. Im so glad we pulling this off>


----------



## Daxk

Good, when are you moving there permanently.


----------



## AFRIKA

Daxk said:


> Good, when are you moving there permanently.


soon ,im happy to work in europe for now. . . im living my dream of working overseas and when im ready i'll go back
to start a business (franchise restaurant in ballito or umhlanga).heaven.


----------



## Halo

This is one of the most naive posts I’ve read in a while…. I will briefly address some points. Please remember, anecdotal accounts cannot be taken seriously, cold hard facts and history needs to be the root of all discussion. 



AFRIKA said:


> Its really sad that you have the misconception that you come from a superior race.
> Eastern , South Amercian and North African civilisations had complexed societies thousands of years before europeans.


I’m not sure what your point is here…. Nobody said anything about being superior as we all can be traced to a common ancestor some 200000 years ago (Mitochondrial Eve) who came from Africa? Now let’s get back to Africa, while the rest of the world progresses sub-Saharan Africa never got much past the Stone Age… Why, who knows but if that part of the region wants everything other civilized/progressive nations have a certain order needs to follow. It’s not rocket science.



AFRIKA said:


> Civilisation and globalisation have caused more harm than good in this world.Advancements in medicine and healthcare are the only things that have increased lifespan,but on the other hand automobile deaths vs ease of travel,military advancements vs war...the list is endless.
> Civilisation to you is technology and so on,if someone steals your car and fits it with the latest "bling" items such as air suspensions and sound sytems and so on and then they tell you that the car is better of and they will retain ownership because you have no idea of the beauty of technology,but you just wanted your classy bently and not this mettalic purple disco car. Im sure you will not have a hard time explaining to civilised people that no matter how much was spent on your car all you want is your original car back.
> Now why is it so hard to get the same response about european "land grabs".


More naivety, if you go back just 500 years your life expectancy was not just 35, it was dire…. Besides for the KING you were most likely a serf somewhere in the world pulling up potatoes paying high taxes…. This is all thanks to modernization (mechanisation and thinking). Yes, there are people starving but one only has to look at those societies to see why. (here’s a clue, move on)

Or African, Chinese, Asian


AFRIKA said:


> Im in RSA for the soccer and i visited rural ndwedwe were my brother is building a road for the local government. Its unbelievable that so many people still live in these areas.I spoke to the local tribal leader and he explained that the area has been inhabited by his tribe for hundreds of years and fortunately the area is hilly and is not suitable for agriculture and therfore they were spared by the invaders.These people choose to live in mud houses ,drink water from the rivers , graze their cattle and farm on a subsistence level. When the world is concerned about recession and fuel shortages and all the headache that technology has brought, these people 's lives haven't changed at all. Children and young adults speak to you with heads lowered and never make eye contact with you as a sign of respect and they will receive or give you something with both hands as a gesture of good faith.
> There is no crime or poverty in these areas were there has been no outside interference.
> civilisations like these are rare anywhere in the world .


In Africa, besides for the Bushmen they are non-existent – If the next tribe came down the hill and liked the Land – Bye Bye community… (Add rape and pillaging to the mix and you’ll have a fun afternoon) - You really need to brush up on your history. 
PS They are able to live life like that due to the stability (for now) of South Africa – It’s also why Oranje can exist.



AFRIKA said:


> On the other hand the people who lived on land suitable for farming and rich in minerals where kicked of there land and all history of there societies were erased forever . These people were herded into camps and forced into slavery and murdered if they didn't comply.


A couple of things to remember about Slavery…
-	It was a world wide phenomenon
-	Africa (as did other nations) sold its people to the new travellers (more than any other nation for shiny things from the new world – Sound familiar)
-	Slaves under colonial rule were treated WAY WAY better than in African countries
-	It was the Europeans (Britain) who first banned slavery 200 years ago
-	Slavery is rife still in Africa
-	I could go on and on but I don’t have the time….



AFRIKA said:


> These people have a right to be bitter and now there is outcry if someone is a victim of crime from these wronged people.The behaviour of most whites in RSA is of a criminal with no remorse,dont you realise what we have done to these people. 15years after being given back their country there is an outcry from the rich coastal towns every year when these rural people come to visit the ocean and they make a mess .DON'T YOU GET IT THEY DID NOT COME TO KILL YOU BECAUSE YOU STOLE THEIR COAST,THEY JUST WANT TO ENJOY THE OCEAN YOU ENJOY EVERYDAY! and then they go back to the inhospitable hilly retreat.
> If South africa ends up like Zim ,the western world will condemn the blacks for taking back their land forcibly because no one seems to understand whats going on in SA.


Bitter, for fook sakes, even during apartheid(sic) masses of Africans tried to get into the country as there was WORK (and safety compared to their respective countries) - And please, should the Jews now nuke German or the Japanese America… No, they picked up their heads after a drubbing and built a nation. This is a topic on its own but the world is what it is and we have to live with it. Farms that were returned don’t produce and if South Africa does not want to be another Zim the local populous has to make a decision. Go back to the dark ages or embrace what the new-world brought.



AFRIKA said:


> Everyone has a threshold and if white's attitudes dont change this threshold will be reached in SA.
> Majority of big businesses and farms are still owned by whites . The few farms that have been bought by the government via a willing buyer willing seller scenario have not changed the land problem.There are a few farms that have failed since changing ownership and those that have failed are being given to the successful farmers of the land re-distribution scheme.We dont live in a perfect world ,there will be failures and success stories ,there obviously are more success stories than failures but the propaganda 'agents' have latched on the latter.The white and indian farmers who sold their land were paid handsomely but very few have done the morally right thing and mentored the new owners.Huge commercial farms that were once tribal areas have been allowed to fail in your eyes,but to these people they want to create the natural land they once had . Go visit the macambini tribal area in KZN which was a sugar farming region but now is bush .A dubai consortium saw the natural beauty of the place and offered to buy it to construct a multi billion rand development. the community refused as they said they dont want to move from their tribal land again .


This is pie in the sky stuff and not really worth a reply.



AFRIKA said:


> The tribe is offered enough money to go retire in umhlanga ,but they choose to live in huts in the bush. These 'barbarians' have no priorities!...these are people the western world need to learn from to realise whats inner peace and contempment .


This is almost funny. Ubuntu hey.



AFRIKA said:


> This forum is about giving reasons for people to come back to RSA and my experiences have taught me that South Africa is the best place in the world.
> If you treat the africans with respect and understand that the slow transition is fruststrating alot of the displaced and younger blacks you are going to have a place in history.


Someone asked when you are going back, I second that.



AFRIKA said:


> p.s
> Someone asked why the ANC constantly gets voted into power although they plunder the coffers?
> There is corruption in every government in the world,you would be naive to think that the huge white owned companies in SA didn;t have political connections in the NP just like the ANC is doing now ,the only difference is the media is no longer censored.
> The plundering by the ANC is seen as a robin hood type scenario.The money is given to friends and family via government tenders and this money is spent in SA,its not taken to Europe and Australia and its creating wealthy black businesses who will employ black people from the community. If a white owned company with obviously better skills and technology won the tender the money will never reach the people who need it the most.A company which was oppressed now has the chance to grow its skills and technolgy and has now indirectly helped to alleviate the wrongs of the past. As for the white company ,you have made millions and you already have the holiday homes and the investments to ensure that your family will be rich forever even if you dont lift a finger till you die.


If you believe this then I fear there is no hope for you. You really need to look at the history of the ANC and how it came about, its followers and leaders to understand the WHY.


----------



## Halo

Farms (a possible future)


----------



## Daxk

AFRIKA said:


> soon ,im happy to work in europe for now. . . im living my dream of working overseas and when im ready i'll go back
> to start a business (franchise restaurant in ballito or umhlanga).heaven.


No, No, you need to get back soon or you will have missed the boat.
Portugal is poor, you can make much more money in Ballito.
you need to get back to your roots.
Its altruistic, you need to give back and make a difference.
You are obviously able to read and write, you need to teach and help the young.
Afrika needs people like you.
How can you say no to follow money.
the poor downtrodden people of Kwazulu need your help.
please give it.


----------



## mman

Daxk said:


> No, No, you need to get back soon or you will have missed the boat.
> Portugal is poor, you can make much more money in Ballito.
> you need to get back to your roots.
> Its altruistic, you need to give back and make a difference.
> You are obviously able to read and write, you need to teach and help the young.
> Afrika needs people like you.
> How can you say no to follow money.
> the poor downtrodden people of Kwazulu need your help.
> please give it.


hahahaha what is this???


----------



## Halo

mman said:


> hahahaha what is this???


Good advice


----------



## DannyBoy

vegasboy said:


> For someone living under a bridge you are intelligent enough to quote stats but stupid enough to underestimate ours by thinking we will believe your BS story. But then again, the US is so far advanced they now have internet access points under bridges. If you are living there, you certainly have some serious social or mental health issues. Seek help mate. And please provide a link for your Housing decilne figures. I have real estate there in Florida and we are experiencing the exact opposite...


Well you keep right on expecting that there Housing UPSWING.
The reality of the situation says otherwise -
"
Economists already had believed confidence will remain weak for at least another year because of stubbornly high unemployment. But a batch of economic data — from disappointing job figures in May to dismal housing numbers — is increasing worries that the road to recovery could be rockier than anticipated. Amid such concerns, the Dow Jones Industrials has fallen 9.5 percent since late April.
"We're concerned about the strength of the economic recovery from here," said Richard Hastings, macro and consumer strategist with Global Hunter Securities.
A key housing index released Friday showed that home prices in April rose for the first time in seven months as government tax credits bolstered the housing market. But the rebound may be short-lived now that the incentives have expired. Overall, however, a recent batch of housing data released last week signaled a renewed housing slump that may threaten the broader economy. The Commerce Department reported on Wednesday that sales of new homes collapsed in May, sinking 33 percent to the lowest level on record as potential buyers stopped shopping for a home as government tax credits expired. That came a day after a report showed that sales of previously owned homes fell unexpectedly in May.

Here's the LINK for this - 
Consumer confidence tumbles in June - Yahoo! News


----------



## DannyBoy

BBJ said:


> Danny Boy is living under a bridge in Kentucky with an internet connection available. If you can'y make it in the States what makes you think you can make it in SA? South Africa is probably the only country in the world with a constitution that enshrines colour prejudice. The BEE or Black Economic Empowerment act actively not only encourages but makes it law to prejudice one colour against another. 40% of the Stock Exchange must be owned by Black companies, one could argue that this is a progressive idea that could benefit the masses; but once again Africa have just done what they normally do..... a few rich ANC supporting directors and shareholder and screw the rest, BEE has done very little by buy a few Bentleys for a thousand or so "Black Diamonds" as they are called. You need very little talent or expertise if the country is going to legislate that you must be "given" businesses. Of course most of them just go bankrupt in a few years anyway as buying a mercedes seems to take precedence over paying their staff. The majority of the country are still heading the same way as "Mugabe land". So if I was you, I'de stay under that bridge in Kentucky if you really think SA is an easy touch.


So according to your WARPED logic the Accountants, Lawyers, Teachers, Firemen, Policeman, Nurses, Postmen, Social Workers, Paralegals, Construction Workers, Painters, Woodworkers, Plumbers etc. and etc. who got layed off and lost their jobs due to the greatest financial meltdown since the Great Depression .....DIDN'T MAKE IT IN AMERICA.

SNIP!


----------



## Therooster

Daxk said:


> Arnaud, I can only speak for Ireland and South Africa as I chose to move from one to the other.
> 
> And as I moved for the direct safety of my then 5 yo Duaghter and my wife lets look at what the future holds as a comparison on living in a barter society if the Worlds Currencies collapse.
> 
> rather than predict inflation lets look at some issues at todays data.
> (Figures are not totally accurate for SA but based on memory, Ireland they are very accurate)
> 
> population SA 48 million Ireland 4.7 Million.
> 
> Female life expectancy: SA 38 Ireland 76
> 
> Unemployment: SA 26% (but only 13 million pay tax) Ire 11% (but 3.1 million pay tax)
> Literacy and education rate SA 43% Ire 97%
> Cost of Good quality Education: SA School 1 million over a 12 year period for School
> 1 million over a 4 year period for Varsity
> Ireland: Free
> 
> ability to grow food and feed its population :SA is a net importer of Food, Ireland 140%
> (40% over production)
> 
> Electricity: SA has Eskom but if there is no Industry it will have spare capacity.
> 
> Ireland:Wind and Sea Farms as well as vast quantities of Peat Bog that burns,
> 
> Health Service?
> Govt Hospital SA vs Govt Hospital Ireland?
> Public Transport?
> Welfare of the aged?
> 
> Aids rate SA 26%?(closer to 33% if Anti-Natal Figures are used)
> Ireland less than 1% estimated 114 actual people infected,
> 
> Lets look at a doomsday scenario for SA.
> 
> If the EC economies you predict collapse so does SA's markets for its minerals.
> 
> SA has infrastructure problems in Electricity, Water, Sanitation as well as public Transport and health.
> 
> It has large agricultural potential but it would take 3 years to recover it and utilising the unemployed turn it into Food production.
> That means a mass starvation rate and the possibility of civil unrest.
> it also raises the possibility of Invasion fropm other starving Countries around it.
> 
> SA has no Oil production, its Petrol from Coal process is good but expensive, however its Industrial and public transport system runs on diesel which it can no longer import if no-one is buying its minerals.
> 
> Please note I have purposefully not raised the crime factor.
> because you cannot actually compare Ireland vs SA regarding Violent crime without it looking stupid..


I bet if you compare apples with apples it would look more like this.

South African white life expectancy > Ireland
South African white employment rate > Ireland
etc etc

I don't mean to imply this is anything about Race, but I assume you're a white South African so compare the type of life you can have in South Africa (very likely to be upper middle class with servants , a swimming pool etc etc) rather than some poor guy in Soweto slums experiences. So I think this type of comparison you make is flawed. 

On your other points south Africa's economy increasinly does not depend on minerals. The fastest growing area in the world economically is on our doorstep and they're gowing a taste for processed goods and luxury items which we're only too happy to provide. Look at modern day South African giants like Tiger brands, Mtn and the Shoprite group. They don't care about Europe. I think in a few years time we won't bother exporting to Europe but will focus on expanding and growing with sub Saharan Africa. Our economy of the past 12 years is a very healthy one indeed and we don't need to sit back in awe of the stagnant\ over saturated low growth situation of Europe at all thanks very much.


----------



## Therooster

DannyBoy said:


> So according to your WARPED logic the Accountants, Lawyers, Teachers, Firemen, Policeman, Nurses, Postmen, Social Workers, Paralegals, Construction Workers, Painters, Woodworkers, Plumbers etc. and etc. who got layed off and lost their jobs due to the greatest financial meltdown since the Great Depression .....DIDN'T MAKE IT IN AMERICA.
> 
> SNIP!


What he also forgets is that South Africa produces one of the fastest rates of new millionaires in the world. Not to mention the massive growth of the black middle class and the economy as a whole and the opportunities that are there because of that. Western Europe is a very hard place for a man top get a foot in. It's all been done and stagnated. The developing world countries like South Africa, China ,. Brazil and India etc are where all the big opportunities lie. What can Europe offer the developing world ? While on the other foot Europe needs the developing world to maintain any semblance of their quality of life. Or do you think they're willing to sow us those ****'s for a few dollars a day ?

no , Europe is dead as a economical concept.


----------



## Daxk

Therooster said:


> I bet if you compare apples with apples it would look more like this.
> 
> South African white life expectancy > Ireland
> South African white employment rate > Ireland
> etc etc
> 
> I don't mean to imply this is anything about Race, but I assume you're a white South African so compare the type of life you can have in South Africa (very likely to be upper middle class with servants , a swimming pool etc etc) rather than some poor guy in Soweto slums experiences. So I think this type of comparison you make is flawed.
> 
> On your other points south Africa's economy increasinly does not depend on minerals. The fastest growing area in the world economically is on our doorstep and they're gowing a taste for processed goods and luxury items which we're only too happy to provide. Look at modern day South African giants like Tiger brands, Mtn and the Shoprite group. They don't care about Europe. I think in a few years time we won't bother exporting to Europe but will focus on expanding and growing with sub Saharan Africa. Our economy of the past 12 years is a very healthy one indeed and we don't need to sit back in awe of the stagnant\ over saturated low growth situation of Europe at all thanks very much.


I will agree with you that white life expectancy based on a socio-economic group is going to on a par with Ireland,or at least within a few years.
so lets compare Apples with Apples.

my life in SA vs my life in Ireland.

In SA my house is a 4 bed 4 bathroom = guest loo double garage on 120 sm stand house is 300 sqm.
In Ireland its a 4 bed 5 bathroom single garage on half an acre approx 260 sqm.
My rental income post GFC is R8000/pm 
My cost in Ireland post GFC is R7120.00

Doing a grocery shop on Pick&Pay online vs my Grocery shop here in Ireland makes Ireland R200/pm more expensive.
My electricity bill here is R700
My Tenants electricity bill on average in R1100 (roughly same size family.)
I do not pay for water , I pay R3000 a year fro Rubbish removal.
I do not pay rates.
My Medical aid is R2000 here vs R5000 in SA
I do not have armed response or a burglar alarm.
(the last burglary made front page news in our local freebie newspaper)

Income, in SA my collegue who took over from me at the same salary now earns R800k pa, I earn R700k here in Ireland

I have a Brazilian maid who comes in once a week and a Brazilian gardener who comes in once a month to take care of that which my ride-on mower does not do.
The rest of my comments regarding Schooling and education stands and tax base stands..

I hear what you say about Africa being SA's target market but the flies in the ointment are that you are competing with the East to supply.
Your Productivity is very low, there is a skills shortage especially in the engineering/manufacturing sector, your workforce is being fed by a 40-60% scholastic drop out rate in high schools.
And to top it your electricity power supply is fragile.
The major benefit you had, which was to feed Africa, is gone, SA is now a nett food importer.

Your biggest threat is that your voter base is uneducated after 16 years and will vote for whomever promises the most, you have a populist President in power, a fractured Ruling Political party and a failed woodworker in the wings shouting about nationalisation.
your FDI is minimal.
You are seen as a major risk iro of greenfields mining investment.
Ithink you have at best 10 years.


----------



## Therooster

Daxk said:


> I hear what you say about Africa being SA's target market but the flies in the ointment are that you are competing with the East to supply.
> Your Productivity is very low, there is a skills shortage especially in the engineering/manufacturing sector, your workforce is being fed by a 40-60% scholastic drop out rate in high schools.
> And to top it your electricity power supply is fragile.
> The major benefit you had, which was to feed Africa, is gone, SA is now a nett food importer.
> 
> Your biggest threat is that your voter base is uneducated after 16 years and will vote for whomever promises the most, you have a populist President in power, a fractured Ruling Political party and a failed woodworker in the wings shouting about nationalisation.
> your FDI is minimal.
> You are seen as a major risk iro of greenfields mining investment.
> Ithink you have at best 10 years.



Regarding the first part, so you earn less and have a inferior lifestyle ? Shrug. 

South Africa imports certain foodstuff only to process it and sell it back at 5 times the price. Go to anywhere in southern Africa and it's South African food brands you will find on the shelves. It's South African owned sat tv they will be watching and South African cell phone companies they'll likely be using. Construction might well be carried out by South African firms and banking and life insurance done through South African companies etc. the possibility is endless. Then there's our vehicle and manufacturing sector. where do you think the electronics factories etc are going to base themselves when they move into Africa ? Why else has our economy enjoyed record growth in the past decade despite our mineral wealth fading ? 

And for all this so called uneducated population...when last where you here and did you speak to some black School kids ? I think you might find things have changed more than your confirmation bias filters allow you to see. 

No ,South Africa has massive potential. You can expect us to be a fully functioning first world country in less than 30 years. We're far ahead of where the Asian tiger economies were 30 years ago in comparison. Already we've more than doubled our middle class in only 16 years !! Within 10-15 years alone I predict the poor becoming a minority class.


----------



## Daxk

Therooster said:


> Regarding the first part, so you earn less and have a inferior lifestyle ? Shrug.
> 
> And for all this so called uneducated population...when last where you here and did you speak to some black School kids ? I think you might find things have changed more than your confirmation bias filters allow you to see.
> 
> No ,South Africa has massive potential. You can expect us to be a fully functioning first world country in less than 30 years. We're far ahead of where the Asian tiger economies were 30 years ago in comparison. Already we've more than doubled our middle class in only 16 years !! Within 10-15 years alone I predict the poor becoming a minority class.


Say What?
I have less expenses and on a Macdonalds scale am better off.
add to that my taxbase is different.
Unfortunately for your arguement, I AM better off, my child is experiencing a far better lifestyle, lots more freedoms,my healthcare options are better and I'm more likely to be treated by a SA Doctor,Dentist or Nurse, than you are in a Govt Hospital.
In addition, when daughter gets old enough to start dating and partying, I need to worry about car accidents (which is apples with apples) but not about hi-jackings and the high incidence of rape and STD's.

again, unfortunately for your arguement, I spent twenty years dealing with Sub-Saharan Countries and clients and as I am doing so now, from Ireland, may well be in a better position than yourself to judge.
The problem is not that Sa is able to supply, its that SA will be able to CONTINUE to supply.

Education?
spoken to black kids?
two weeks ago, two young girls whose parents just re-located here frm Diepsloot.
Last time in SA 3 years, next time in SA two weeks time.
last conversation about education, particularly in a black Govt School? Last thursday night to a friend who pays for a farm school in KZN.
Sources?
Google Dropout rate Schools .za
lots of sources from SA ANC Black Govt Ministers about exactly what I have said.

you are tryng to pull the wool over people's eyes, Rooster.


----------



## Daxk

No ,South Africa has massive potential. You can expect us to be a fully functioning first world country in less than 30 years. We're far ahead of where the Asian tiger economies were 30 years ago in comparison. Already we've more than doubled our middle class in only 16 years !! Within 10-15 years alone I predict the poor becoming a minority class.

You dont have 30 years, in fact you probably have less than 10.


----------



## Therooster

Daxk said:


> Say What?
> I have less expenses and on a Macdonalds scale am better off.
> add to that my taxbase is different.
> Unfortunately for your arguement, I AM better off, my child is experiencing a far better lifestyle, lots more freedoms,my healthcare options are better and I'm more likely to be treated by a SA Doctor,Dentist or Nurse, than you are in a Govt Hospital.
> In addition, when daughter gets old enough to start dating and partying, I need to worry about car accidents (which is apples with apples) but not about hi-jackings and the high incidence of rape and STD's.
> 
> again, unfortunately for your arguement, I spent twenty years dealing with Sub-Saharan Countries and clients and as I am doing so now, from Ireland, may well be in a better position than yourself to judge.
> The problem is not that Sa is able to supply, its that SA will be able to CONTINUE to supply.
> 
> Education?
> spoken to black kids?
> two weeks ago, two young girls whose parents just re-located here frm Diepsloot.
> Last time in SA 3 years, next time in SA two weeks time.
> last conversation about education, particularly in a black Govt School? Last thursday night to a friend who pays for a farm school in KZN.
> Sources?
> Google Dropout rate Schools .za
> lots of sources from SA ANC Black Govt Ministers about exactly what I have said.
> 
> you are tryng to pull the wool over people's eyes, Rooster.


Interesting question. Let's see. 

If we did a survey on 1000 people who have never been to South Africa before we go and ask them about their expectations. 

Do you think before their trip they will be.

a) Expecting a first world crime free country with no problems.
b) Expecting it to be much like home, but slightly more poverty and crime.
c) Expecting it to be a total poverty ridden warzone with straving babies where everyone is out to get them ?

Fast forward.

Do you think after their trip they will :

a) Be shocked at the crime and poverty.
b) It will meet expectation.
or
c) Be pleasantly surprised at how it's not nearly as bad as people (mostly ex South Africans like yourself) would have them believe and is in fact a very beautiful, friendly and safe country (if you're not very stupid) ?

I meet tourists almost every single day. I have never met someone who doesn't fall into category C.

But it's me whose trying to pull the wool over people's eyes by letting them know that South Africa is a perfectly functional place to live? ? And that no there isn't a good chance you will get murdered ot raped as a expat here. And that of the tourists we do get most come back and many report wanting to move here for a better life. This entire paragraph speak of the typical experience people have when visiting here. You however are promising bloodshed and all sorts of horrific scenarios that are extremely unlikely to happen and presenting it as a likely scenario. It's you with your agenda that is pulling the wool over people's eyes by pretending South Africa is so much worse than it really is.


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## Daxk

"But it's me whose trying to pull the wool over people's eyes by letting them know that South Africa is a perfectly functional place to live? ? And that no there isn't a good chance you will get murdered ot raped as a expat here. And that of the tourists we do get most come back and many report wanting to move here for a better life. This entire paragraph speak of the typical experience people have when visiting here. You however are promising bloodshed and all sorts of horrific scenarios that are extremely unlikely to happen and presenting it as a likely scenario. It's you with your agenda that is pulling the wool over people's eyes by pretending South Africa is so much worse than it really is."

lets see, now, , kindly post links to my posts where I have promised this?

On the other hand, are you saying that armed home invasions, murders and rapes, just dont happen in good suburbs?
that it is totally safe to go for a walk and do whatever you would normally do in your departing Country?
Are you also saying that expats and visitors have NOT experienced violent crimes in SA?
You have an agenda, bud, its shown clearly by your language.
now ,kindly post those links.


----------



## Therooster

Daxk said:


> "But it's me whose trying to pull the wool over people's eyes by letting them know that South Africa is a perfectly functional place to live? ? And that no there isn't a good chance you will get murdered ot raped as a expat here. And that of the tourists we do get most come back and many report wanting to move here for a better life. This entire paragraph speak of the typical experience people have when visiting here. You however are promising bloodshed and all sorts of horrific scenarios that are extremely unlikely to happen and presenting it as a likely scenario. It's you with your agenda that is pulling the wool over people's eyes by pretending South Africa is so much worse than it really is."
> 
> lets see, now, , kindly post links to my posts where I have promised this?
> 
> On the other hand, are you saying that armed home invasions, murders and rapes, just dont happen in good suburbs?
> that it is totally safe to go for a walk and do whatever you would normally do in your departing Country?
> Are you also saying that expats and visitors have NOT experienced violent crimes in SA?
> You have an agenda, bud, its shown clearly by your language.
> now ,kindly post those links.


Lol, you're asking me to link to where you are being alarmist and then in the very next sentence going on one long alarmist rampage ! Fail !!

Murders , rape, home invasions etc all happen even in the suburbs. But this is a tiny proportion of the 18000 murders each years. And you know what ? They happen elsewhere too. Is there a good chance of this happening to you ? No. Should it keep you up at night ? No. Believe it or not we will all die and there is no avoiding that, and dying from murder is very low down the list of likely ways it's going to happen to you.

Can you go for a walk ? WTF kind of question is that ? HUH ? Of course you can ! Who the heck doesn't go for a walk ? How extremely alarmist of you to suggest you can't safely go for a walk in this country ! What's your agenda dude ? That's way up there in the neurotic scaremongering charts !

Expats and visitors, like all human beings in the whole world will experience crimes here too. Visitors experience extremely low levels of crimes. 

Shut up ******: South Africa's rampant crime largely spares tourists

Safer place to visit than Australia anyway.

Shut up ******: World cup repeats 1 : What was I thinking ?

Still not convinced ? This will fix you.

http://shutupwhitey.blogspot.com/2009/07/myth-of-south-africa-being-dangerous.html

lol. You're out of your league son. Never try bullsh!t a bullsh!tter. You and me both know how over dramatic and alarmist you are presenting South Africa to hapless third parties. Who you fooling eh ? And why ?


----------



## Daxk

Just answer my questions bud,have a quick search as to what is actually said.
then have a look at your posts saying it does not happen.
I agree,47 million 995,000 people didn't get murdered last night,
thats not the point, dude.
the point is that SA is not safe, that a huge slice of the whites and now more Black, Brown green and yellow South Africans have left and are leaving, for some strange reason that has little to do with money.

I agree that you can make money in SA,
the difference is Ican make money anywhere, and the fact hat i have a young daughter makes me put her first.
If you have young children and choose that they grow up there, thats your right and your choice.
I dont insult you for it, unlike you who call those who choose that their children grow up out of SA , Cowards.
However, if someone who has children, wishes to know if their children will have the same freedoms they have in western 1st world countries, such as going for a walk, (no, you cannot easily in Gauteng) catching a bus down to the mall, or a train into town, then that is going to be different.
but then, if they are going to live out of the way,in a small village somewhere, or in the Cape, perhaps,but the majority of expat skills being imported is going to Gauteng.


----------



## Therooster

Daxk said:


> Just answer my questions bud,have a quick search as to what is actually said.
> then have a look at your posts saying it does not happen.
> I agree,47 million 995,000 people didn't get murdered last night,
> thats not the point, dude.
> the point is that SA is not safe, that a huge slice of the whites and now more Black, Brown green and yellow South Africans have left and are leaving, for some strange reason that has little to do with money.
> 
> I agree that you can make money in SA,
> the difference is Ican make money anywhere, and the fact hat i have a young daughter makes me put her first.
> If you have young children and choose that they grow up there, thats your right and your choice.
> I dont insult you for it, unlike you who call those who choose that their children grow up out of SA , Cowards.
> However, if someone who has children, wishes to know if their children will have the same freedoms they have in western 1st world countries, such as going for a walk, (no, you cannot easily in Gauteng) catching a bus down to the mall, or a train into town, then that is going to be different.
> but then, if they are going to live out of the way,in a small village somewhere, or in the Cape, perhaps,but the majority of expat skills being imported is going to Gauteng.


Big backpedal there.

I call rubbish. You can easily go for a walk in Gauteng. Easy and it's done every single day by pretty much every single South African. Stop pretending like we're too scared to walk outside. Flat out lie and you know it. There is NO truth to it at all. 

I never called you a coward. Christ man it's your kids , you do what you feel is best for them. I offer you the same advice as I did the lady earlier. Don't listen to me or anyone, just use your rational mind and beware of people with twisted agenda's trying to poisen your mind with fear and irrational prejudice. 

Oh and you can easily catch a bus or take a train or any of those freaking things man. Jees you realise how you're making it out like people are out to kill everyone everywhere ? Total dishonest kak. Those murders that happen here are chiefly ammongst known people who have bad impluse control when drunk and happen to think a knife is a good way to solve a dispute. Nothing joe ****** or jane tourist is ever likely to be a part of. Stop pretending it's anything different.

Lastly according to moving companies we get more South Africans coming back than leaving. Add to that 2000 brits each year who move here and countless other Germans etc and you're picture of "people running away" is very distorted. Don't project your view of the country onto others. Most South Africans are very happy living here , just the few who weren't like you have nothing better to do than be extremely vocal and paint a distorted picture as if we're unhappy.

I bet anything you were a victim of a crime. Because your motivation seems very deep and your views very irrational and bitter. I'm sorry if that's the case but you do realise you're part of a tiny minority don't you ?


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## Daxk

No Back pedal at all, if you had bothered to read previous posts you will find taht most of us "naysayers" here say that we dont care wether people go to SA or not, just do so well informed.

Go for a walk? in Gauteng?
ok, Joburg, the Wilds, Gilloolies, down along the Jukskei?
anywhere, any of the public streets in the evenings?
just wander around your suburb?
you are prepared to guarantee it?

Buses and trains? what times?
and where?
see an American backpacker got shot in the arm off the Gautrain Station at Marlboro?
he was just walking with his backpack.
lucky.

and the chestnut that 80% of all murdered people know their attacker?
great! thats the easiest crime to solve, surely.
after all, how do you know the murderer knew tha victim unless you catch them.

How come the conviction rate for Murders that GO to Court is only 9%?
and only 20% of all murders go to court?
how come the conviction rate for Rape is only 11%?
of those that go to Court that is.
Source Law Society on Conviction rates.

Coward?
you said people who had done the Chicken run.
explain?


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## Therooster

Daxk said:


> No Back pedal at all, if you had bothered to read previous posts you will find taht most of us "naysayers" here say that we dont care wether people go to SA or not, just do so well informed.
> 
> Go for a walk? in Gauteng?
> ok, Joburg, the Wilds, Gilloolies, down along the Jukskei?
> anywhere, any of the public streets in the evenings?
> just wander around your suburb?
> you are prepared to guarantee it?
> 
> Buses and trains? what times?
> and where?
> see an American backpacker got shot in the arm off the Gautrain Station at Marlboro?
> he was just walking with his backpack.
> lucky.
> 
> and the chestnut that 80% of all murdered people know their attacker?
> great! thats the easiest crime to solve, surely.
> after all, how do you know the murderer knew tha victim unless you catch them.
> 
> How come the conviction rate for Murders that GO to Court is only 9%?
> and only 20% of all murders go to court?
> how come the conviction rate for Rape is only 11%?
> of those that go to Court that is.
> Source Law Society on Conviction rates.
> 
> Coward?
> you said people who had done the Chicken run.
> explain?


I never used the 80% know their attacker stat. I think it's stupid as how could they possibly know that when so many crimes go unsolved. But as a motive for murder in S.A I would suggest theft is a very low percentage. Interpersonal often drunken disputes make up the bulk of it. Go to a government hospital on a Friday night and you will confirm this. The gross majority of these types of murders won't even make the papers they are so common and "unewsworthy" That's 49.5 out of your 50 murders a day right there. But you certainly will hear about it when a white person is murdered. That's perhaps why people have a distorted perspective of the real nature of vuiolent crime here. 

Chicken run implies you left when the black government took over as is it's common usuage. I'm sorry if you took that to imply you're a coward. I think if you really thought you were in danger here there's nothing cowardly about leaving. No matter how sadly misinformed you were I will defend anyone's right to decide what is best for them. Why since then have you dedicated your life to presenting South Africa as such a terrible place when it's clearly not though ? Please give me some background into what it is that drives this bitterness.


----------



## DannyBoy

Therooster said:


> What he also forgets is that South Africa produces one of the fastest rates of new millionaires in the world. Not to mention the massive growth of the black middle class and the economy as a whole and the opportunities that are there because of that. Western Europe is a very hard place for a man top get a foot in. It's all been done and stagnated. The developing world countries like South Africa, China ,. Brazil and India etc are where all the big opportunities lie. What can Europe offer the developing world ? While on the other foot Europe needs the developing world to maintain any semblance of their quality of life. Or do you think they're willing to sow us those ****'s for a few dollars a day ?
> 
> no , Europe is dead as a economical concept.


Well from the postings here it appears that most folks are not aware how bad things in the U.S really are. Maybe the oil spill in the gulf is the top news in S.A, but as bad as that may be, it's really a distraction from what's really happening in the U.S Economy.
"WHO CARES" you may say,..but the thing is if the U.S economy continues to go belly-up, it WILL affect the rest of the world. If the dollar collapses, YOUR life will be impacted. The tent cities of unemployed people forming in San Francisco, the long unemployment lines are a small taste of what's to come.

Mail & Guardian had an article on June 22 which said -
"Roughly 39 000 South African job-seekers returned from foreign countries over the past year, representing 13,7% of those who left the country to find work since 1990.

On account of South Africa's skills shortage, unemployment for highly skilled professionals was just 1.4 percent. He said the number of returnees was likely to rise to 120 000 as foreign short-term work contracts expired. --Sapa"

I can believe this. The huge S.African community in Texas (largely I.T related) has been hit hard and jobs these days are scarcer than hens teeth.
Here'e the actual link. These are scary times in the U.S.
Employment falls as cup projects end - Mail & Guardian Online: The smart news source


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## Daxk

Therooster said:


> I never used the 80% know their attacker stat. I think it's stupid as how could they possibly know that when so many crimes go unsolved. But as a motive for murder in S.A I would suggest theft is a very low percentage. Interpersonal often drunken disputes make up the bulk of it. Go to a government hospital on a Friday night and you will confirm this. The gross majority of these types of murders won't even make the papers they are so common and "unewsworthy" That's 49.5 out of your 50 murders a day right there. But you certainly will hear about it when a white person is murdered. That's perhaps why people have a distorted perspective of the real nature of vuiolent crime here.
> 
> Chicken run implies you left when the black government took over as is it's common usuage. I'm sorry if you took that to imply you're a coward. I think if you really thought you were in danger here there's nothing cowardly about leaving. No matter how sadly misinformed you were I will defend anyone's right to decide what is best for them. Why since then have you dedicated your life to presenting South Africa as such a terrible place when it's clearly not though ? Please give me some background into what it is that drives this bitterness.


No, you did not use the 80% attacker stat, Thabo Mbeki did.
you did however imply that most murders that happened were drunken knive wielding binges that were anger fuelled.
and that they knew their atackers.
read your own posts.

Misinformed about danger to my family?
not misinformed at all.

give you personal details? easy, I have posted EXACTLY why I thought that my Family was in danger on this Forum before.
all it takes is for you to do some reading.

South Africa, from my clear and own perspective relating to friends family plus my own experience, IS a very dangerous place.

if you and yours have not experienced that yet, it took 40 years for my first incident.
you probably still have time.

oh, Bitter?
not at all.
dissapointed? yes. very.
I welcomed 1994.

Black Govt?
Nope?

its a multi racial Govt.

check it out, it is EXACTLY according to racial demographics.

you are using exactly what every Afrikaans rightwinger used since 1986 when Packing for Perth started.
Traitors, chicken run, bitter expats, cant settle in your new Country.

The next will probably be racists (aah you started that already with Black Govt), we dont need you, why do you spend so much time...

The Country is fine, is the management that needs some accountability, and if the management is wasting stuff, being corrupt, and not doing what is inherent in the job, they need to be pointed out.
Hell knows you cant vote them out.

and if expat workers are going there to sort things out, because thats how the Companies are getting around the AA laws, then they need to be aware.
because as you have noted, unless its a ghorrific crime, its not on iol or news24, murders and rapes are on page 4 of the newspaper that you have to buy.


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## zambezi.king

Just because people return does not mean that they do so by choice. Many are due to short term visa expiery, job loss due to the economic crisis, the perception that the grass is greener back home, the fact that they have family to lean on during the lean times, and some even return because they want to.

As for Rooster's idea that slick answers will divert from the FACTS that crime is a huge problem, admitted to by Zuma _et al_ as well as the fact that in the last 15 years the amount of people who I personally know (not a friend of a friend of a friend) has increased many fold. Education is in a downward spiral, pass rates are artifically maintained by passing all and sundry (have 3 relatives who are teachers so this is FACT). 

Yes you can walk around at night, BUT... the amount of areas where this still happens in safety has diminshed to the point where it is the exception and usually only happens in boomed suburbs or certain shopping areas such as Sandton City etc. The crime rate increases EVEN THOUGH THERE ARE MORE BURGLAR BARS, ELECTRIC FENCES AND SECURITY COMPANIES. What does this say about the situation.

You say don't bullsh*t a bullsh*tter... I think we have discovered who is who!

If you hadsaid "sure there are problems including serious crime but hey that's Africa" you might have retained some degree of credibility but to blindly ignore or refute the FACTS that are known far and wide and bang on about a growing future economy. Duh... China will kick our butts good and proper and any money that we are lucky to find in the national coffers will be gobbled up even faster than it is now.

An example if you want... we (my father and myself) wanted to export polyprop 90kg grain bags to Zambia. We got the best price as he worked for the bag manufacturer, one of the biggest in SA. We put half a cent as profit on each bag. Now for the punchline, for the same bags to be manufactured in China, shipped to Durban, railed to Lusaka they still beat us by 6cents on every bag! Do you really think China is worried about little old SA. They will make use of MTN, Shoprite etc while it is convenient, therafter...

As for more millionaires than anywhere else... What can you buy with your million... the Zimbabwe multi TRILLIONAIRES spring to mind. Longterm looks less rosy than you make it out to be.


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## mman

Im just going to say something in this argument i have read bits and pieces but not all because it goes on an on. My S.A house is in Durban , Cowies Hill im here 6 of the 12 months in the year. The rest of the time im in other countries, my house contains no burglars gaurds , no alarm , no electric fences , no cameras , no barbed wire ... Infact no security at all . I have been here for 4 years. I have not had one single slight problem. Now i dont want to tempt fate because yes i could have a problem tommorrow. However i have had two break in's in England, a break in in Dubai, and an attempted break in, in France.

My point , yes South Africa has crime but it is often over exaggerated by expats and media and in some ways doesnt differ from other countries!


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## mman

zambezi.king said:


> An example if you want... we (my father and myself) wanted to export polyprop 90kg grain bags to Zambia. We got the best price as he worked for the bag manufacturer, one of the biggest in SA. We put half a cent as profit on each bag. Now for the punchline, for the same bags to be manufactured in China, shipped to Durban, railed to Lusaka they still beat us by 6cents on every bag! Do you really think China is worried about little old SA. They will make use of MTN, Shoprite etc while it is convenient, therafter...


Oh and with regards to this ... Its absolute crap, this is my proffesion and i know for sure that South Africa is very competitive in especially the plastic field!


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## zambezi.king

mman said:


> Im just going to say something in this argument i have read bits and pieces but not all because it goes on an on. My S.A house is in Durban , Cowies Hill im here 6 of the 12 months in the year. The rest of the time im in other countries, my house contains no burglars gaurds , no alarm , no electric fences , no cameras , no barbed wire ... Infact no security at all . I have been here for 4 years. I have not had one single slight problem. Now i dont want to tempt fate because yes i could have a problem tommorrow. However i have had two break in's in England, a break in in Dubai, and an attempted break in, in France.
> 
> My point , yes South Africa has crime but it is often over exaggerated by expats and media and in some ways doesnt differ from other countries!


Except for the rate per thousand inhabitants, oh and the violence that seems to be associated with so many crimes that elsewhere in the world are violence free. Yip, it's just those pesky journalists and expats that just lie, lie, lie.


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## zambezi.king

mman said:


> Oh and with regards to this ... Its absolute crap, this is my proffesion and i know for sure that South Africa is very competitive in especially the plastic field!


So am I a liar?? You are SERIOUSLY deluded if you think that SA has a hope in hell of competing with the Chinese! Thier economy would flatten us in the blink of an eye. Having worked in various African countries, England and *CHINA*, I can tell you without a doubt we are not competitive, not at all. So next time you think to call me a liar find out the facts and don't base your opinion on a situation you know nothing about! Competitive my arse!


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## Daxk

I came across the Chinese in a tender in Kenya, They went in at below cost of material, nevermind labour to keep us out.
it was three small tenders and we had cut margin to get in and build on user confidence.
Exit stage left.


----------



## Daxk

mman said:


> Im just going to say something in this argument i have read bits and pieces but not all because it goes on an on. My S.A house is in Durban , Cowies Hill im here 6 of the 12 months in the year. The rest of the time im in other countries, my house contains no burglars gaurds , no alarm , no electric fences , no cameras , no barbed wire ... Infact no security at all . I have been here for 4 years. I have not had one single slight problem. Now i dont want to tempt fate because yes i could have a problem tommorrow. However i have had two break in's in England, a break in in Dubai, and an attempted break in, in France.
> 
> My point , yes South Africa has crime but it is often over exaggerated by expats and media and in some ways doesnt differ from other countries!


MMan, in all my years I had one burglary.
I had three cars broken into and radios stolen.
had one car stolen.
That took 54 years.
nothing major.
None of the above would drive me from SA and did not.

I dont think a single expat I have come across left because they lost some stuff in a burglary.
most left because of violent crime, hi-jackings or murder of a close person.

you had any of those in England, Dubai or France?


----------



## Therooster

zambezi.king said:


> So am I a liar?? You are SERIOUSLY deluded if you think that SA has a hope in hell of competing with the Chinese! Thier economy would flatten us in the blink of an eye. Having worked in various African countries, England and *CHINA*, I can tell you without a doubt we are not competitive, not at all. So next time you think to call me a liar find out the facts and don't base your opinion on a situation you know nothing about! Competitive my arse!


Was watching an interesting documentary the other day. The Chinese laborers are getting fed up and there's a lot of tension. They're demanding that they start to see some of the benefits of the Chinese economy booming (ie : higher salaries). Also China has had to strengthen the yuan. China is some magical place that's always going to be able to out compete the rest of the world. They will have to deal with the same traps everyone else had to face. Japan struggles to be competitive today and grow their economy but you would never had said that about them when they were booming in the 80's as they were. Go back before that and you you'd probably own a tv made in the U.S or Britain. China are riding a wave now but the bubble will burst.


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## mman

zambezi.king said:


> Except for the rate per thousand inhabitants, oh and the violence that seems to be associated with so many crimes that elsewhere in the world are violence free. Yip, it's just those pesky journalists and expats that just lie, lie, lie.


Please read my post properly, i never said i single thing about lying, im talking about over exaggerating.


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## Therooster

My post should have read "China is NOT"


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## mman

zambezi.king said:


> So am I a liar?? You are SERIOUSLY deluded if you think that SA has a hope in hell of competing with the Chinese! Thier economy would flatten us in the blink of an eye. Having worked in various African countries, England and *CHINA*, I can tell you without a doubt we are not competitive, not at all. So next time you think to call me a liar find out the facts and don't base your opinion on a situation you know nothing about! Competitive my arse!


Again im not calling you a liar, i just believe you are misinformed. First of all a situation i know nothing about - buddy my proffesion is the plastics field i know the game. I manufacture and export 1kg food bags to Mozambique ( but according to you that must be impossible due to the Chinese). Why would they come to me, well many reasons of course - i produce a good quality bag, i produce the bags quicker and bottom line is i look after the customer. The chinese on the other hand often produce a rubbish quality and dont really care about the customer that much.

When you think about being competitive you cant only look at the price issue. If that was the case then BMW, Ferarri etc would not exist everyone would just buy the Chinese models. You have to find your market and aim for them, of course people will come along and want the cheaper product. You cant win them all. 

With regards to your buisness idea, i think you gave up to easily. You didnt sell your product the correct way, target the correct market and sell a good service with your product and people will buy from you.


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## mman

Oh and another thing i just thought of now is that you were trying to be a reseller, so you cant expect to compete with a manufacturer when it comes to pricing.


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## zambezi.king

If you read my post you will see that this experience I had personally and the buyer actually showed us the proposal / quote from the chinese. So when you say I am talking crap I take it as I see it. As for being a reseller the example simply showed that even putting a VERY small margin on the bags were still got a serious spanking on the products and that was for the same (?) thing being manufactured in China. Any reasonable man would expect us to have won the bid I think.

As for China being some magical place... certainly not but they do things differently there. State run enterprises and businesses that are owned by officials enjoy state benefits and are used as a strategic tool to gain a chinese foothold that is later exploited once the local opposition is dead. Take our own textile industry... face down and breathing it's last due to chinese imports. 

As for the comparison regarding the BMW etc... when you are dealing with a tender / quotation scenario you are given the specs for the product to supply, so we were supposedly all pricing apples with apples. As you say you win some and you lose some so I'm sure you have lost one or two due to the same pricing issues. China milked the continent for years by supplying low quality now they are having to do better because of thier dubious reputation... but it is much easier now due to thier local foothold.


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## mman

zambezi.king said:


> If you read my post you will see that this experience I had personally and the buyer actually showed us the proposal / quote from the chinese. So when you say I am talking crap I take it as I see it. As for being a reseller the example simply showed that even putting a VERY small margin on the bags were still got a serious spanking on the products and that was for the same (?) thing being manufactured in China. Any reasonable man would expect us to have won the bid I think.


Buddy i think you have missed the boat here. You are a reseller, you buy a product from a manufacturer who puts a *MARK UP* and then sells it to you. You in turn are then putting a *MARK UP* thats two mark ups compared to the chineses 1. At the point when the buyer showed you the chinese quote is the time when a good buyer starts arguing his price, explaining why hes that bit more - quality, service etc. Yes it wont always work but lots of people would rather pay a bit more for a good product.



zambezi.king said:


> As for the comparison regarding the BMW etc... when you are dealing with a tender / quotation scenario you are given the specs for the product to supply, so we were supposedly all pricing apples with apples. As you say you win some and you lose some so I'm sure you have lost one or two due to the same pricing issues. China milked the continent for years by supplying low quality now they are having to do better because of thier dubious reputation... but it is much easier now due to thier local foothold.


No such thing, pricing apples with apples when is comes to this field. How do you know that once you have put 70kg's in the 90kg bag it doesnt break due to cheaper products being used. Do you think the chinese would refund you for the product if its a bad batch, not a chance you wont hear from them again.


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## zambezi.king

mman said:


> Buddy i think you have missed the boat here. You are a reseller, you buy a product from a manufacturer who puts a *MARK UP* and then sells it to you. You in turn are then putting a *MARK UP* thats two mark ups compared to the chineses 1. At the point when the buyer showed you the chinese quote is the time when a good buyer starts arguing his price, explaining why hes that bit more - quality, service etc. Yes it wont always work but lots of people would rather pay a bit more for a good product.
> 
> Think you missed the part where I stated that my father worked for the manufacturer so he got the best price... i.e. a very slight markup on cost. As for the quote it was a sealed bid/proposal situation much like a tender. Once closed it was closed.
> 
> No such thing, pricing apples with apples when is comes to this field. How do you know that once you have put 70kg's in the 90kg bag it doesnt break due to cheaper products being used. Do you think the chinese would refund you for the product if its a bad batch, not a chance you wont hear from them again.


That is exactly the point I am making. the chinese will undercut you either in price or quality. When you deal face to face you can sell yourself and your product. When in a closed bid situation your proposal is all on paper.


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## Boesman

Hi, we are South Africans who lived for the past decade in the UK. It is sad but true, the old SA as we know it is gone. We also wanted to go back, but decided to go to Oz. Closest thing to SA with a first world economy. 
Boesman


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## Gigi 1974

Hi Boesman and every one else who are as we say Saffas by heart ;-)

Just returned from a trip back home and must say, every time we do come back from the yearly vacation, I count my blessings regardless. And am truly rejuvenated to take my country of residences small pains, and I say that loosely, lol, and get on with it.

Heres to all of us, who miss the way things were.

Best Regards;

K


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## vegasboy

Boesman said:


> Hi, we are South Africans who lived for the past decade in the UK. It is sad but true, the old SA as we know it is gone. We also wanted to go back, but decided to go to Oz. Closest thing to SA with a first world economy.
> Boesman


 Boesman, thanks for your post. I am curious to know how what factors made you decide that you are better off in Oz.

When you have time, please share some thoughts with us.


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## Therooster

These are the wrong people to ask about moving back to S.A. There entire agenda to be here is more to convince themselves not to, than to convince you. They're incredibly homesick and unhappy in their new countries for the most part and spend a crazy amount of time trying tyo convince themselves they made the right decision to leave because of that.

When homesick they'll go searching for something, anything to affirmate their decision such as some horrible murder etc. And of course if you look for that enough you will find it. 30+ years of never knowing anyone murdered in this country. Nobody I know is interested in leaving of worried about the type of drivel these expats go on about. I just say be extremely wary of who you listen to and be very careful of their agenda.


And anyone coming to South Africa now and saying "it's not the same as before" is 100% right. It''s so much safer, richer and more developed than apartheid days when as much as 80% of the people didn't have electricity or human rights. South Africa is on an upward trajectory in almost every single aspect. Anyone telling you different is not dealing with facts.

for example violent crime is over 50% lower than in 1994 and some people still suggest it's going up. how can you take such people seriously ?


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## Boesman

Sounds like there are some jealous people who CAN'T leave the country. Yes, we do get homesick, but don't need an excuse. Good luck you don't know any one killed. My dad was stabbed with a knife for nothing, my aunt had a gun against her head and a friend of my mum was stabbed 33 times until she was unrecognisable, need I go on?


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## Stravinsky

Therooster said:


> These are the wrong people to ask about moving back to S.A. There entire agenda to be here is more to convince themselves not to, than to convince you. They're incredibly homesick and unhappy in their new countries for the most part and spend a crazy amount of time trying tyo convince themselves they made the right decision to leave because of that.
> 
> When homesick they'll go searching for something, anything to affirmate their decision such as some horrible murder etc. And of course if you look for that enough you will find it. 30+ years of never knowing anyone murdered in this country. Nobody I know is interested in leaving of worried about the type of drivel these expats go on about. I just say be extremely wary of who you listen to and be very careful of their agenda.
> 
> 
> And anyone coming to South Africa now and saying "it's not the same as before" is 100% right. It''s so much safer, richer and more developed than apartheid days when as much as 80% of the people didn't have electricity or human rights. South Africa is on an upward trajectory in almost every single aspect. Anyone telling you different is not dealing with facts.
> 
> for example violent crime is over 50% lower than in 1994 and some people still suggest it's going up. how can you take such people seriously ?


Then there are the Home Coming Revolution People that will tell you everything is completely OK crime wise in SA (I guess you have to be careful of their agenda), and then of course there are the statistics I have seen referred to that show that crime in SA is terrible. Show us some statistics then to prove that crime is no longer a problem in SA, thats the way to counter (but not off the HCR site please)


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## Cadworks

*A little of both.........*

I would hazard a guess that it is a little of both. People who don't want to, or cannot leave will be optimistic about the country. Those that have left or would like to leave will have other ideas. I believe there is the political agenda of radicals who commit crimes to promote negative ideals. Such as killing farmers, both because areas are isolated, and easier targets, and they believe the land belongs to them. There is also the economic crimes committed by people who are frustrated about jobs and opportunity.

My experience talking to family members and other individuals is they do wear "rose colored glasses" when talking about SA.

I have a friend who talked casually about a visitor who was robbed and stabbed on her back porch, stating that he was just fine because he survived, and it was not that big a deal.

I visited on a business trip with some dignitaries, and we were warned constantly about venturing out on our own. This may be over cautious, but have only run into this kind of thing in Mexico, (because of the drug war).

South Africa is not in a civil war, so this is a symptom of wide spread problems.

Perhaps as time goes by the government and police will get this in hand, and SA will become the safe place everybody wants it to be.....


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## jojo

Therooster said:


> These are the wrong people to ask about moving back to S.A. There entire agenda to be here is more to convince themselves not to, than to convince you. They're incredibly homesick and unhappy in their new countries for the most part and spend a crazy amount of time trying tyo convince themselves they made the right decision to leave because of that.
> 
> When homesick they'll go searching for something, anything to affirmate their decision such as some horrible murder etc. And of course if you look for that enough you will find it. 30+ years of never knowing anyone murdered in this country. Nobody I know is interested in leaving of worried about the type of drivel these expats go on about. I just say be extremely wary of who you listen to and be very careful of their agenda.
> 
> 
> And anyone coming to South Africa now and saying "it's not the same as before" is 100% right. It''s so much safer, richer and more developed than apartheid days when as much as 80% of the people didn't have electricity or human rights. South Africa is on an upward trajectory in almost every single aspect. Anyone telling you different is not dealing with facts.
> 
> for example violent crime is over 50% lower than in 1994 and some people still suggest it's going up. how can you take such people seriously ?


In answer to your last question "how can you take such people seriously ?" I dont know what people you're talking about. It might me more informative if you were a little less statistical and stopped worrying about what the figures say. Consider how life is for someone who is thinking about moving back to SA

Jo xxx


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## vegasboy

Boesman said:


> Sounds like there are some jealous people who CAN'T leave the country. Yes, we do get homesick, but don't need an excuse. Good luck you don't know any one killed. My dad was stabbed with a knife for nothing, my aunt had a gun against her head and a friend of my mum was stabbed 33 times until she was unrecognisable, need I go on?


 Boesman, sorry to hear of all these horrible things that happened to your family.

I'm glad you managed to re-settle and start a new life in Oz.


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## Cadworks

*New direction.....*



jojo said:


> In answer to your last question "how can you take such people seriously ?" I dont know what people you're talking about. It might me more informative if you were a little less statistical and stopped worrying about what the figures say. Consider how life is for someone who is thinking about moving back to SA
> 
> Jo xxx


Good suggestion, perhaps some specifics about good areas to move, tips and financial information. Real estate links etc. This would get the thread back on topic with less political views and more practical information for those needing help moving back.


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## dizzyizzy

Cadworks said:


> less political views and more practical information for those needing help moving back.


That is exactly what this forum is about - practical information for expats, not political debating. The ocassional debate is welcome and interesting but some people have taken it too far, and some forum members seem to have joined to discuss political views and nothing else, which we have already noted and are watching closely. There are other forums where such topics are better suited, and they can still be discussed here, provided that people remain polite, something that sadly a few forum members have proven are incapable of doing


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## Therooster

Boesman said:


> Sounds like there are some jealous people who CAN'T leave the country. Yes, we do get homesick, but don't need an excuse. Good luck you don't know any one killed. My dad was stabbed with a knife for nothing, my aunt had a gun against her head and a friend of my mum was stabbed 33 times until she was unrecognisable, need I go on?


I've lived in many different countries for most of my adult life. I'm highly educated and below a certain age and could easily get a visa to emmigrate if I want to. I consider this an important factor in why I know what good South Africa has to offer.


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## Therooster

Cadworks said:


> Good suggestion, perhaps some specifics about good areas to move, tips and financial information. Real estate links etc. This would get the thread back on topic with less political views and more practical information for those needing help moving back.


How about the fact that most people who left , left at a time when violent crime was twice as bad ? And I bet that if their perception wasn't that it would get worse they wouldn't have left. Now that it hasn't gotten worse, and in fact has gotten far better, do you not think it's at least fair to say " Come back as crime is no worse than when you left and in fact far better ?"


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## jojo

Therooster said:


> How about the fact that most people who left , left at a time when violent crime was twice as bad ? And I bet that if their perception wasn't that it would get worse they wouldn't have left. Now that it hasn't gotten worse, and in fact has gotten far better, do you not think it's at least fair to say " Come back as crime is no worse than when you left and in fact far better ?"


Rooster you are obsessed with crime and violence! Every post you write is about it and there is no need! 

Jo


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## Therooster

jojo said:


> Rooster you are obsessed with crime and violence! Every post you write is about it and there is no need!
> 
> Jo


I'm sorry it comes across that way. I'm simply responding to the bleak picture people present. I think that the average persons life in South Africa has extremely little to do with crime or violence. I would love to present that aspect if the hijackers of this forum would allow it.


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## jojo

Therooster said:


> I'm sorry it comes across that way. I'm simply responding to the bleak picture people present. I think that the average persons life in South Africa has extremely little to do with crime or violence. I would love to present that aspect if the hijackers of this forum would allow it.


Well dont! Dont say anything at all unless its in answer to the topic title! Its boring now!

Jo x


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## Cadworks

*Left...*



Therooster said:


> How about the fact that most people who left , left at a time when violent crime was twice as bad ? And I bet that if their perception wasn't that it would get worse they wouldn't have left. Now that it hasn't gotten worse, and in fact has gotten far better, do you not think it's at least fair to say " Come back as crime is no worse than when you left and in fact far better ?"


Well some of us left many years ago when we perceived there would be a civil war, and saw no possibility of avoiding that. We have of course heard all the bad things over the years, and having visited SA, found conditions to be marginal.

I have sent pictures of my home in America to friends, and they stated "Wow things are so open in your neighborhood, no fences, barbed wire or security signs to ward off crime!!"

I also had brought my American wife to live in Joburg, we left after a year. She hated the dissension between the different peoples. i.e. Afrikaans, English, Asians, Africans...........

So I speak from experience..........giving SA more than one try.

But to get back on topic would be the thing to do. Each microcosm area in SA is different, so people need to know of those areas where life is good, jobs are to be had, etc.....


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## dizzyizzy

Well therooster, I think we all know where you stand now, so how about giving it a break? So far, you have 87 posts on this forum - all political. This is a forum about practical information about moving to different countries, not about the political and social situation in South Africa. You've stated your position over and over now. Enough.


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## zambezi.king

Yes the politacal situation is important but Rooster will have a view and others will have an opposing view, blah, blah, blah... Jojo is right, it has become very tiresome. The axe has now been ground to a nub and people's chips have become shoulder breaking burdens. I have no vested interest whether someone comes here or not and don't really care either way. I will in future reply to specific questions or give a general opinion only when asked to do so... I gave solid advice to the original poster right at the start of the thread... if anyone feels they need to have the last word, feel free...


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## Johanna

zambezi.king said:


> Yes the politacal situation is important but Rooster will have a view and others will have an opposing view, blah, blah, blah... Jojo is right, it has become very tiresome. The axe has now been ground to a nub and people's chips have become shoulder breaking burdens. I have no vested interest whether someone comes here or not and don't really care either way. I will in future reply to specific questions or give a general opinion only when asked to do so... I gave solid advice to the original poster right at the start of the thread... if anyone feels they need to have the last word, feel free...


Good idea, stick to the point and answer questions you can. It serves no purpose to argue and be negative. Your replies have mostly been from a realistic point of view, let us keep it that way!


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## Therooster

I have no problem at all keeping it on topic. As long as you come down on those trying to make this forum about their bagagge and prejudices I'm a happy chappy.


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## Johanna

Therooster said:


> I have no problem at all keeping it on topic. As long as you come down on those trying to make this forum about their bagagge and prejudices I'm a happy chappy.


Right, so from now on I hope we will act like adults and not become personal!


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## zambezi.king

But teacher, he started it first...


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## Johanna

zambezi.king said:


> But teacher, he started it first...


eace:


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## Weebie

I'm heading over to Saffa soon can't wait. Considering in the past few years here in Australia I've been attacked, stabbed, beaten, robbed by the police, had a gun pointed at me I'm not overally worried about safety from what I've seen when I was there. I've seen 6 people killed here in Perth at nightclubs and bars in the past 8 years. Personally I think Australia is just to dangerous now for my youngish lifestyle where in the middle of the day in front of hundreds of peopel I can be stabbed. Saffa I feel far more comfortable in bars or cafes, walking the suburbs things like that. I do respect though the opinion of people who want to leave though for various reasons

South Africa has greater business opportunities now as well. Australia you can live comfortably but never be rich and never get ahead. Anyone who thinks they can make it in europe is kidding themselves that continent is finished.


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## zambezi.king

Weebie said:


> I'm heading over to Saffa soon can't wait. Considering in the past few years here in Australia I've been attacked, stabbed, beaten, robbed by the police, had a gun pointed at me I'm not overally worried about safety from what I've seen when I was there. I've seen 6 people killed here in Perth at nightclubs and bars in the past 8 years. Personally I think Australia is just to dangerous now for my youngish lifestyle where in the middle of the day in front of hundreds of peopel I can be stabbed. Saffa I feel far more comfortable in bars or cafes, walking the suburbs things like that. I do respect though the opinion of people who want to leave though for various reasons
> 
> South Africa has greater business opportunities now as well. Australia you can live comfortably but never be rich and never get ahead. Anyone who thinks they can make it in europe is kidding themselves that continent is finished.


So in your opinion Aus and Europe are worse options than SA?
SA is safer than AUS?
One cannot make it in Europe even with thier subsidised health system, social benefits such as the dole, housing, transport, energy subsidies...?

If one can't survive in Europe (UK) then maybe the gene pool is better off without one's genes. In Africa we have grown up without social benefits and therefore have a good "can do" work ethic, we don't wait for things to be done for us or wait for a handout (not going to even go down that road). Saffas do quite well in the UK as we get the job done.

As for the crime in Perth I can't really comment but the picture you paint is not one I have come accross before... not saying it is not true or exaggerated, just saying it is the first time I have heard that it is so bad.

NOTE TO SELF... DON'T GO TO PERTH!


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## LegalMan

I've been reading this thread and must say I'm pleasantly surprised at how civil it is. Most other threads on similar forums are just about people's issues and how they slate SA without prejudice.

I'd say that if you earn a good salary and live in a good area, crime is not going to be a big problem for you. Yes, there are cases of crimes of all types in all areas, but these gravitate heavily towards the poorer areas.


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## Daxk

I would say it depends on where you are in your lifecycle.
If I was mid thirties or younger and was single/had young kids/ and wanted to make money as well as experience SA's gifts, great place to be.
Ditto older retired with sufficient income and able to live in the smaller towns comfortably.

But if you have teenage and Varsity age Kids who are going to want an active social life without major concerns about safety, then SA's major Cities is not where you want to be.


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## Halo

Daxk said:


> I would say it depends on where you are in your lifecycle.
> If I was mid thirties or younger and was single/had young kids/ and wanted to make money as well as experience SA's gifts, great place to be.
> Ditto older retired with sufficient income and able to live in the smaller towns comfortably.
> 
> But if you have teenage and Varsity age Kids who are going to want an active social life without major concerns about safety, then SA's major Cities is not where you want to be.


Totally agree except for the young kids part...... Saying that, you'd only return to SA when old if you did not have enough $ to enjoy life and even then... who wants to be and old person is SA?


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