# I need serious advice people!



## noisyboy (Nov 13, 2011)

Hello all, 

So I'll try to make this as simple as possible.

I recently joined Company X 6 months ago. Very decent company, decent pay and I am very happy with the people I work with. I have a very good working relationship with my director and my team is great. I am very liked and would like to consider myself as an integral part of the company.

I got a job offer from Company Y which is so hard to resist, financially speaking. It is AED6,000 more plus a car, which I would assume would amount to a AED7,500 hike in my salary. This as we all know changes a lot of things, A LOT!

The problem is, Company X and Company Y are direct competitors, and leaving Company X will mean a lot of trouble will/could start, especially given the sensitivity of information I deal with daily. It is also the kind of industry where my clients would most probably come with me.

Additionally, I will NEVER EVER advance with Company X because of the politics involved and it's internal structure. With Company Y, there are no promises of advancement, but I know for sure that there is a better chance of advancing depending on your performance.

Last but not least, Company X is at the stage of it's life where it's growing, expanding and diversifying it's products and services. It has about 60 offices worldwide. Company Y is old, big, much more stale and mature. It has 600 offices worldwide.

Legally, and ethically, what would you do? I am so confused right now!


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## dizzyizzy (Mar 30, 2008)

Do what is right for you and your family and take job with company Y. Is a jungle out there


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## JusAdy_Glasgow (May 13, 2012)

noisyboy said:


> Hello all,
> 
> So I'll try to make this as simple as possible.
> 
> ...


Hi noisyboy,

I'd have a look at your contract if I were you. It may be that you have a restrictive covenant in it which prevents you from working for a direct competitor within a certain amount of time I.e 12 months from the end of your contract.

I'm not sure if these exist in contracts in Dubai or if they are enforceable there.


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## Canuck_Sens (Nov 16, 2010)

Bro,

You know the answer for that question. Bear in mind that people go through these choices all the time. I could have doubled my earnings very recently but that would 've meant working 9 hours more per day and move to the private sector. I currently work 5 or even less. So yeah I like my personal time and you can call me lazy lol

Are you planning to make a career here in the UAE or not ? Start from there.

Changing jobs within 6 months is not well seen if you happen to go back to Canada. you literally burn yourself with the company who hired you. You are seen as an opportunist. If your resume popped in my hand I would definitely ask you why you left the company in 6 months. Why ? You may look dodgy. I had gone through a similar experience in Ottawa. My ex boss back then asked me why I changed jobs so fast in NY. Well there, there is a huge turnover (it is an expensive place to live) and there are lots of qualified people to take over.

Turns out, though, that several people do that; but those who stick around for a while are not questioned for their competency. If you stick couple of years with a company, the new employer will have no doubt that you are good at what you do after all you 've been working for the same place for a while. 

I might be completely wrong if your occupation has a high turnover rate.

I personally do not like and I believe employers look for people who can stay for a while. I would not change jobs or take any jobs without at least having one year of experience in that company, but as you said it appears to be a good hike. 

Was that offer hunted by you or offered by the competition ? If you like where you are at you may say that you got an offer and maybe they can match ?

I bet you gotta do some thinking there.

Good luck!


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## Gavtek (Aug 23, 2009)

Take the offer to your current employer and ask them to match it or you're offski.

No point in being loyal to a company for the sake of it, as soon as they take a dip in profits, they won't hesitate to kick your ass on the streets.

It's not just more money, it's a better chance of career progression. You don't owe anyone any favours.

That said, if your current employers decide to be dicks about it, you could find yourself without any job.


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## JusAdy_Glasgow (May 13, 2012)

Gavtek said:


> Take the offer to your current employer and ask them to match it or you're offski.
> 
> No point in being loyal to a company for the sake of it, as soon as they take a dip in profits, they won't hesitate to kick your ass on the streets.
> 
> ...


I'd definitely not take the offer to your current employer as he will realise that you are looking elsewhere & question your loyalty to them. It is a great deal you've been offered, but companies value loyalty. Not just the company you are with now but future employers will see that you were with them for a few years for example, it will stand you in much better stead in the future. 

Justine


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## noisyboy (Nov 13, 2011)

Thank you all for the responses.

Canuck_Sens, this opportunity came directly from the competitor. They have had the chance to see my work and would like for me to join their team. I am looking to build a career for myself to answer your second question.

This is such a hard decision. If I was going into a higher position, then I would have said yes in no time. The problem is that it's for the same position. But then again, this amount of money can change my life.

If anyone has anything else to add, please do. I will update this thread once I make a decision. Thanks again


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## brettaevans (Mar 23, 2012)

Noisyboy,

I guess it comes down to your career requirements. If company X is growing rapidly then that may in turn help you with career advancement even though you say the company structure is not the best.

Its often a trade off with whats best for your career versus dollars. I have seen colleagues/clients go for the fast buck earlier on and after a couple of years they have paid the price.

Tough call.


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## jessop (May 9, 2012)

Gosh, this is such a tricky one! I would say take the money out of the equation and write down the pro's and con's of each opportunity, having it on paper might help you see things more clearly. The money must be very tempting but ultimately you will have to work doubly hard to earn it. Plus no amount of money can buy you colleagues you value and get on with. Don't compromise your quality of life for the sake of money. Also from my own experience be careful about being honest about this other offer with your current company. I once did that in the name of loyalty and they tried to discipline me for going for another job interview! Good luck and let us know how you get on!


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## Gavtek (Aug 23, 2009)

JusAdy_Glasgow said:


> I'd definitely not take the offer to your current employer as he will realise that you are looking elsewhere & question your loyalty to them.


Assuming his current employer isn't a jealous idiot who would take it personally, most people these days are practical enough and know that employees come and go. Chances are his line manager doesn't own the company and will probably be keeping one eye on the job market himself.

The reason for going to your employer and saying "I've just received an offer out of the blue from Company Y, it's a much better financial package than I'm on and I'd be crazy not to consider it, however, I'd be concerned about letting you guys down and going to a competitor, is there anything you can do?" is not only to try and get more money out of them, but also to gauge their reaction so you can judge how they would react if you did resign.

If you're working for good people, you won't have a problem and they'll appreciate you being open and honest with them. It's up to you to judge if they're that sort of people.

I would refuse to pay any attention to anyone who thinks it's wise to stick in an underpaid job with less opportunities just because it doesn't look good on your CV. The only people who are rewarded by your loyalty is your employer. It's called "work" for a reason, do what's best for you and your family, no-one else.

I've got a couple of jobs on my CV that I quit after 3 months, it hasn't done me any harm and most employers have been practical enough to understand my reasoning for leaving. Showing the conviction that you won't waste your time in a job working for idiots with your career going nowhere is a good thing in the eyes of a good employer.


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## pamela0810 (Apr 5, 2010)

Better the devil you know than the devil you don't!

Quite frankly, AED 7,500/- a month is a very small price Company Y is paying if you are moving there with your entire client database. 

If they see you as potentially an invaluable asset then let them make an offer that you just can't refuse. Just a pay hike of AED 6,000/- and a car won't cut it in my opinion. Now is your opportunity to negotiate and also to find out if they can draw up a future plan for you. Get a percentage increase on all grounds (housing, airline tickets, retirement benefits, stock options etc etc).


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## rsinner (Feb 3, 2009)

Apart from the dilemma you also need to consider the law. Unless you are in a free zone company etc, there might be a labour ban for leaving the company so quickly (I think laws were changed, but then not implemented, then "clarified", then implemented poorly, or something like that - so absolutely no idea what the current laws/practices are any more).

Also, you have mentioned the 7500 figure and that it is important. However, if you are going to a competitor AND with a client base. I hope the 7500 is at least 40-50% higher than the current salary. [I would not move for less than 20% jump in salary if I bring nothing substantial to the table; but if I was in a position like you are, I would not move for less than 40% jump]

http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/uae/e...rs-slapped-with-six-month-labour-ban-1.848607
http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/uae/e...h-for-workers-seeking-to-change-jobs-1.939633
_
a legal consultant at the Ministry of Labour clarified the new rules and said expatriate workers would still receive a one-year ban if they failed to get their sponsor's consent before changing employment.
"No one is allowed to switch jobs even if they complete many years in their [current job], without the consent of their sponsor," Hussain said._


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## w_man (Apr 16, 2010)

As someone already mentioned, company X seems to be growing as you say and in my experience, growing companies have a bit more potential for individual growth. Of course, you know best if this is true or not for company X.

This is a fairly personal decision in my opinion so you will have to make the ultimate decision on your own. If you are simply looking for opinions, I would personally stay with company X. If I like the environment and the people I work with, this holds much more value to me than money - certainly more than 6k ... maybe if it was 15+ k, I'd reconsider  

I work for a small company and really enjoy it, certainly don't miss the big company environment. I have had offers from bigger outfits before and I guess the number hasn't been right for me to make the move. 

Hope you make the decision which is good for you and your family. GL.


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## splendor (May 14, 2012)

*they should be part of moral.. when ever you do any thing,,, I believe if you make your move you will loose a lot.. you have to consider the value of happiness with the people you work with, the value of the very good working relationship with director and team,,,, and then you will find that your salary is much more than the new offer... I had the same experience, I move because of money and not agree with one of the manager .. but I felt so sorry ,, after accepting high salary offer ,,, and found that the environment not that good and friendly ...
moreover ... the new company will not trust you ... you are always ready to move ,,,,
finally the term of your contract will bind you ,, the trustee terms also *


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## Toon (Feb 28, 2012)

splendor said:


> *they should be part of moral.. when ever you do any thing,,, I believe if you make your move you will loose a lot.. you have to consider the value of happiness with the people you work with, the value of the very good working relationship with director and team,,,, and then you will find that your salary is much more than the new offer... I had the same experience, I move because of money and not agree with one of the manager .. but I felt so sorry ,, after accepting high salary offer ,,, and found that the environment not that good and friendly ...
> moreover ... the new company will not trust you ... you are always ready to move ,,,,
> finally the term of your contract will bind you ,, the trustee terms also *


And the prize for "The most difficult to read post of the week" goes to....


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## fcjb1970 (Apr 30, 2010)

I would just say if you move, be sure you are willing to stick with company Y for a while (at least 5 years I would say). Sounds like you may burn some bridges and you need to consider what long term impact that might have. But you will be asked in every interview you go into why you left that job after 6 months and you need a good explanation that fits you. I left a job after 6 months and it is always asked about, I have a good reason that fits my personality and also I stayed at my next company 5 years and when I was leaving there had a very valid reason

That's my $.02


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## noisyboy (Nov 13, 2011)

fcjb1970 said:


> I would just say if you move, be sure you are willing to stick with company Y for a while (at least 5 years I would say). Sounds like you may burn some bridges and you need to consider what long term impact that might have. But you will be asked in every interview you go into why you left that job after 6 months and you need a good explanation that fits you. I left a job after 6 months and it is always asked about, I have a good reason that fits my personality and also I stayed at my next company 5 years and when I was leaving there had a very valid reason
> 
> That's my $.02



Well when I asked Company X 6 months ago during my interview how can I go about advancing in this company, I was given the bull**** response of "oh, so much room for advancement here." You know what, I've seen how the most valuable employees are treated here. 5 years not a single promotion, a demotion instead. Why? I don't know. All I know is that I don't feel good when I see that, regardless of how much I enjoy working with the people. My career is much more important. 

Thank you all once again for the replies. I am meeting with someone from Company Y tomorrow to have a more sincere discussion about this issue.


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## JusAdy_Glasgow (May 13, 2012)

noisyboy said:


> Well when I asked Company X 6 months ago during my interview how can I go about advancing in this company, I was given the bull**** response of "oh, so much room for advancement here." You know what, I've seen how the most valuable employees are treated here. 5 years not a single promotion, a demotion instead. Why? I don't know. All I know is that I don't feel good when I see that, regardless of how much I enjoy working with the people. My career is much more important.
> 
> Thank you all once again for the replies. I am meeting with someone from Company Y tomorrow to have a more sincere discussion about this issue.


I thought you enjoyed working where you are noisyboy? It sounds as though things have changed since your first post?
There's no harm in meeting up with the people from Y to see what they are all about. It's a tough decision but sometimes people from the outside can give you an unbiased view...it doesn't always make it easier though! 
Let us know how you get on tomorrow.
Jus


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## noisyboy (Nov 13, 2011)

JusAdy_Glasgow said:


> I thought you enjoyed working where you are noisyboy? It sounds as though things have changed since your first post?
> There's no harm in meeting up with the people from Y to see what they are all about. It's a tough decision but sometimes people from the outside can give you an unbiased view...it doesn't always make it easier though!
> Let us know how you get on tomorrow.
> Jus


Hello,

I didn't say I don't enjoy working with them?! Did I convey that somewhere? Maybe I did. To clarify, I enjoy it a lot, I have a very good relationship with almost everyone but it bothers me inside to see that there's no chance of advancing. 

I also said that no matter how much I enjoy working with them, my career is much more important. I hope that clears things.


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## JusAdy_Glasgow (May 13, 2012)

noisyboy said:


> Hello,
> 
> I didn't say I don't enjoy working with them?! Did I convey that somewhere? Maybe I did. To clarify, I enjoy it a lot, I have a very good relationship with almost everyone but it bothers me inside to see that there's no chance of advancing.
> 
> I also said that no matter how much I enjoy working with them, my career is much more important. I hope that clears things.


Sorry, I just meant you don't sound as enthusiastic about staying at your existing job as you did at first. Maybe the prospects of the new job are becoming more and more appealing?

Just double check what the situation would be with visas etc before you get your hopes up or make a definite decision. Nothing worse than being let down by something out with everyone's control once you've made that choice.
Jus


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## noisyboy (Nov 13, 2011)

JusAdy_Glasgow said:


> Sorry, I just meant you don't sound as enthusiastic about staying at your existing job as you did at first. Maybe the prospects of the new job are becoming more and more appealing?
> 
> Just double check what the situation would be with visas etc before you get your hopes up or make a definite decision. Nothing worse than being let down by something out with everyone's control once you've made that choice.
> Jus


Well I can agree with you that the new offer is looking better. It looks better everyday! See the other worrying part is that whole visas issue etc. I do have a Bachelors degree and I think that might help, but we never know here right?

I will update everyone tomorrow. I'm sure someone would like to see a closure to this topic. But that probably won't be soon! Lol!


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## Mr Rossi (May 16, 2009)




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## Enzoo (May 15, 2012)

if you have just recently joined company x six months ago, and now you are planning to transfer to company y , a direct competitor, i think it would land you in big trouble with your current company especially that you still are a newbie employee. dubai labor laws are changing oftentimes and now i think they are giving the employees , us a chance because the new labor law allows employees to transfer to another employment without a ban after two years . so i guess your plan of transferring to company y must be put on hold after your contract of two years.


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## Tropicana (Apr 29, 2010)

The main point, as rsinner mentioned, is what is the % rise Y is offering you.

If its 50% more, i'd think a bit about it. 

But a 20-25% wouldnt be worth the hassle.

The only time a 20-25% would be worth it would be if you are unhappy with your present job/boss

And how sure are you that X wont increase your salary in the future ?


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## Canuck_Sens (Nov 16, 2010)

All I want to know now is when you are inviting us for a round of beers since you are going to get big bucks either way.

Ohh and of course it is on you :-D


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## Abdul_B (Aug 18, 2011)

You should wait....if they approached you then they can wait too. Close out one year, show them that you're an asset to company x....and that you'll only move for a higher position. One year looks a lot better than six months. Nobody is saying they won't still need you in six months time or that the offer isn't negotiable...

Also be aware of Visa laws here...I think if you serve less than a year with a company and you want to change you have to serve a 6 month ban...I'm not sure but when someone left our company that was what happened. So I'd check on that too.


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## sabfrance (Sep 9, 2010)

Loyalty is greatly over-rated. Ever known an employer to say even though business is bad and profit is down have that promotion and increase you deserved two years ago?

I agree with Gavtek - look after yourself. 10 years from now are you going to be happy with a smaller bank balance and larger mortgage because you were loyal to a company who's name you can't even remember?

It's work not play.


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## rsinner (Feb 3, 2009)

sabfrance said:


> Loyalty is greatly over-rated. Ever known an employer to say even though business is bad and profit is down have that promotion and increase you deserved two years ago?
> 
> I agree with Gavtek - look after yourself. 10 years from now are you going to be happy with a smaller bank balance and larger mortgage because you were loyal to a company who's name you can't even remember?
> 
> It's work not play.


Couldn't agree more with this. And going by OPs further description of his workplace, he would be better off away from the company.
If only the financial services industry was not down in the dumps..... :ranger:


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## noisyboy (Nov 13, 2011)

Canuck_Sens said:


> All I want to know now is when you are inviting us for a round of beers since you are going to get big bucks either way.
> 
> Ohh and of course it is on you :-D


I will buy you two rounds of beer lol. So in your previous post, you started with "you know the answer." Honestly no I don't. Is it that clear what I should be doing?

And this has been asked a few times so...the increase is more than 45%. It's not 50% as some would have hoped. And to someone who has asked me if I was sure I wasn't gonna get a raise with X after a year, the answer is I probably will, a 10% raise. But would they even consider a 30%? I highly doubt it. Someone just got hired for the same post as mine, with less pay, even though we were told there was a structure. So it seems to me as if they are decreasing salaries. 

Anyway I met with Mr. Company Y today and he mentioned that the environment is decent but told me not to get my hopes up by thinking its all fun and giggles all the time. We discussed labor bans and he said a regular labor ban they can lift but an "immigration labor ban" is something they can't lift if Company X decides to issue against me. This is a straight up 1 year ban. Also mentioned to me that I'm eligible for bonus (not applicable in Company X) and a review after one year with raise. He told me he's really happy where he is. The one thing I didn't like hearing is that Company Y'a HQ is not in Dubai (unlike Company X). How does that affect any of you who work for a company that has an HQ out of here? Slower process to get things done with HR and all?

Moreover, guess who I also talked to today? Company X's PRO. I'm on really good terms with him and hinted to him that I might be in the market for a new post with a competitor. He goes, "go do whatever you want and don't worry, I will also remove the ban." So I asked about the immigration labor ban and he said, "don't worry about that either, if they ask me to start a process I will make sure it ends quick." He did give me some comfort but then again I can't solely depend on his words. 

Haven't made a decision yet, but just wanted to update this thread as promised.


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## pamela0810 (Apr 5, 2010)

noisyboy said:


> I will buy you two rounds of beer lol. So in your previous post, you started with "you know the answer." Honestly no I don't. Is it that clear what I should be doing?
> 
> And this has been asked a few times so...the increase is more than 45%. It's not 50% as some would have hoped. And to someone who has asked me if I was sure I wasn't gonna get a raise with X after a year, the answer is I probably will, a 10% raise. But would they even consider a 30%? I highly doubt it. Someone just got hired for the same post as mine, with less pay, even though we were told there was a structure. So it seems to me as if they are decreasing salaries. - It's a bit unrealistic for you to expect 30% as an annual raise, don't you think. Even a 10% raise is pretty decent these days for top performers. Also, in spite of the salary structure, at the time of hiring, the company always will start low and then negotiate their way up. The person settled for less, his loss and company's gain. Can't say anything negative about the company because their goal is to make a profit at the end of the day.
> 
> ...


Sorry if I sound a bit harsh but it seems like you're looking at this more tactically than strategically. Put your career first, not the money, not what Company Y says and not what the PRO says. Be professional in your approach, you should have a clearly drawn up plan of where you see yourself in 5 years and the company that is hiring you should be able to give you an answer of how they can help you achieve that goal. If they do not have professional answers to how you can get there and how they take care of their employees and I mean a good HR system, good career development planning, etc....then maybe all they can offer you is the 7.5K and nothing else. Once you move, it might not be worth it.


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## noisyboy (Nov 13, 2011)

pamela0810 said:


> Sorry if I sound a bit harsh but it seems like you're looking at this more tactically than strategically. Put your career first, not the money, not what Company Y says and not what the PRO says. Be professional in your approach, you should have a clearly drawn up plan of where you see yourself in 5 years and the company that is hiring you should be able to give you an answer of how they can help you achieve that goal. If they do not have professional answers to how you can get there and how they take care of their employees and I mean a good HR system, good career development planning, etc....then maybe all they can offer you is the 7.5K and nothing else. Once you move, it might not be worth it.


Harsh or not, you are entitled to say what you please. Let me answer your points one by one. But before, please keep in mind there are things which I haven't mentioned because they might reveal either of the companies.

I have a university degree from one of the best business schools in Canada, and given that, and given my experience, (and performance) I am underpaid. Yes many of us are underpaid in this world, but that doesn't mean I should settle to be one of "us." I took this job because it was the only one offered to me, and with the economic crisis I had no choice. It turned out to be an enjoyable job, one that I am doing great in, but with no advancement. So a 10% increase is not what I am looking for, otherwise my loyalty goes down to zero.

Every company should go sales on you when they feel like you could be an added value to the team. Which crazy company wouldn't? I didn't expect anything less from him to be honest with you. The bonus is performance based and I am not worried about that. I have a wide network of clients from my previous experience, so I wouldn't have to work to death to achieve the bonus. I am not worried about that. I showed interest in his offer 2 months after it was given to me. I got calls every week and all I did was ignore and say I will think about it. I didn't give in that easy. After 2 months of them following me around, today was the first meet. We didn't even discuss the salary (except for what was mentioned over the phone prior). When the time comes (if the time comes), I will negotiate believe me. He trusts me because he knows me from before. We've done some work together in the past and he knows I am a top performer because in our industry word gets around quickly.

I am not really overstepping on anyones toes. He is a friend, and his loyalty lies with the company, but...he does not work for the company. He is solo and does work for them every now and then. I know that they have a lot of wasta, and this is why I made sure he becomes a friend as soon as I joined. I "took care of him" if you know what I mean. So I am not too worried about him snitching. I just did not want to go to my supervisor without having anything concrete. I am now contemplating whether I should go with the formal hiring process of Company Y. I am contemplating whether or not I should just forget all of this happened and move one with my life. Honestly, I am not worried about the bans, whatever type of ban it is. I am worried about my career, and I honestly HONESTLY do not have a career with Company X. I might get a raise, but I will never get a promotion. The senior management is basically family, and I don't expect any of them leaving, or getting fired. That is what I am worried about. Everyone tells you that you have a chance of advancing, but who is really telling the truth? You will never know. 

Finally, about Company Y having a good HR system etc. They have more than 600 offices worldwide. I am pretty sure the company would collapse without a second to none HR system. However, I did not ask about where they see me in 5 years. I will ask if we meet again. In any case we will be speaking soon because he has to come back to me with some answers. 

If you have anything else to add, please do, it helps. Thanks for taking time in evaluating this for me. Much appreciated!


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