# British citizens moving to & rights in Spain - Brexit



## Pipeman

Hi again from the long time lurker 

Now that we are accelerating down the Brexit runway, would it be possible to create a "Moving to Spain during 2020" thread where the latest details on requirements / documentation / timeframes etc could be kept?

My house is going back on the market after Christmas (I took it off as the uncertainty about Brexit dried up the market) with an intention to move to Spain around Easter. I suspect there may be many others in the aircraft (see what I did there?  ) so having a sticky might save seeing the same questions all the time... 

Thanks, and Merry Christmas to all.


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## Alcalaina

Pipeman said:


> Hi again from the long time lurker
> 
> Now that we are accelerating down the Brexit runway, would it be possible to create a "Moving to Spain during 2020" thread where the latest details on requirements / documentation / timeframes etc could be kept?
> 
> Thanks, and Merry Christmas to all.


Good idea. In fact, this couid be it - if people can restrain themselves from expressing opinions  and just stick to facts (with links).

As things stand at the moment (and assuming BJ gets his withdrawal agreement passed), the UK will leave the EU on 31 January and there will be a transition period until 31 December 2020, during which time it will still be possible for new arrivals from the UK to get Spanish residency as if they were EU citizens (evidence of healthcare plus enough money to live on).

https://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/en/brexit/howtoprepare/Paginas/190108residence.aspx



> 1.3. What is my situation if I arrive in Spain after the withdrawal date but during the transition period (from the withdrawal to 31 December 2020)? What do I have to do?
> 
> The Withdrawal Agreement establishes a transition period until 31 December 2020, during which you must directly request the residence document at the office for foreign residents (Oficina de Extranjería) in the province where you live. A check will be made to ensure that you meet the same requirements as for obtaining a registration certificate as EU citizen. Once this residence document has been obtained, you will be issued the Foreigner Identity Card, explicitly maintaining your condition as beneficiary under the Withdrawal Agreement.


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## baldilocks

Pipeman said:


> Hi again from the long time lurker
> 
> Now that we are accelerating down the Brexit runway, would it be possible to create a "Moving to Spain during 2020" thread where the latest details on requirements / documentation / timeframes etc could be kept?
> 
> My house is going back on the market after Christmas (I took it off as the uncertainty about Brexit dried up the market) with an intention to move to Spain around Easter. I suspect there may be many others in the aircraft (see what I did there?  ) so having a sticky might save seeing the same questions all the time...
> 
> Thanks, and Merry Christmas to all.


Start one yourself. Go to near the top of the page it says (in Bold) "Reply to thread" Immediately above that it says where you are now. Follow along that line to where it says Expats living in Spain. Click on that (it is a link) and half way down the new page you will see that it says "Post a new thread" - hit that and away you go.


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## Juan C

Pipe man. I assume you have done your homework about tax in Spain. 

If you sell in U.K. in 2020 then move to Spain in same year, you may have a capital gains tax to pay in spain as you will become tax resident in Spain for that whole year. Unlike in U.K. ones family home is not free of CGT .


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## Pipeman

I didn't know that... and I imagine the tax bill would be significant


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## xabiaxica

Pipeman said:


> Hi again from the long time lurker
> 
> Now that we are accelerating down the Brexit runway, would it be possible to create a "Moving to Spain during 2020" thread where the latest details on requirements / documentation / timeframes etc could be kept?
> 
> My house is going back on the market after Christmas (I took it off as the uncertainty about Brexit dried up the market) with an intention to move to Spain around Easter. I suspect there may be many others in the aircraft (see what I did there?  ) so *having a sticky might save seeing the same questions all the time...
> *
> Thanks, and Merry Christmas to all.


From experience, stickies are more often than not ignored. As long as people post to this thread, it will stay near the top.

We'll merge anything relevant posted elsewhere with it.


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## Williams2

Long time lurkers like Pipeman shouldn't be sitting on the fence over the past 3 
years but move to Spain asap. Move while the goings good.


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## nigele2

Williams2 said:


> ....... but move to Spain asap. Move while the goings good.


Sorry William but that is the worst advice I've ever heard. Pipeman cannot risk becoming resident in Spain prior to 1st January 2021. And to be safe that needs to be after 6th April 2021. Even those dates assume he sells his house quickly.

Not only does he need to avoid being taxed on the house sale but also any disposal of assets or lump sums from pensions. And possibly make provision for any possible inheritance. And despite "project fear" we can see the reaction to Brexit on the currency and equity markets. No reason to rush to Euros.

Further, "while the goings good" sounds like you imagine Spain will no longer invite cash rich Brits to live in Spain? If you need a job the rules might change but what is it other than that, that you think will block pipeman's plans?

But if I was Pipeman I'd be glad of the time. There is no indication at the moment that Spanish property prices are moving north in many areas, so no need to rush on that front. And with climate change I'd research in great detail areas chosen in Spain for a new home. For example here near Cadiz we are over a kilometer from a very wide beach. But there is discussion of sea encroachment. Recently the beach bars, someway from the sea, where like paddling pools. Of course it will hopefully  be years till we need to build an ark but it still impacts the price of and ability to sell property.

And by 2021 Brexit will hopefully be very clear if not done and dusted. So Pipeman will have clarity on the future (well as much clarity as is ever available).

One thought pipeman. It might be worth opening a Euro account with your UK bank. I'm with Lloyds and the account is based in Jersey. (No it is not for millionaires - I wish)  It can be useful even with just a couple of hundred Euros in it. And it avoids the temptation to open a spanish account. My advice due to spanish bureaucracy would be to avoid making a spanish paper trail for as long as possible. Just IMHO. 

But all the very best with your adventure.


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## Juan C

Nigele

The tax year in spain is the calendar year. 

The U.K. tax year does not affect one’s tax liabilities in spain. 

If a person MOVES to Spain (and in that case the 183 day rule does not apply) anytime in a tax year, they are taxable in Spain for that year. 

As I said previously. One should take good professional advice on their particular circumstances.

NB The rules regarding tax between the U.K. and Spain (not the EU) are set out in the DOUBLE TAXATION AGREEMENT 2013. 

see;-

https://assets.publishing.service.g...ent_data/file/507409/spain-dtc_-_in_force.pdf


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## NickZ

The OP tax status would be determined by the tax treaties between the two countries. It's not just what Spain or the UK want.

But nothing stops the OP from starting the process. Looking for an area. Finding a property. Even making an offer. Far better for the OP to take his time .


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## nigele2

Juan C said:


> Nigele
> 
> The tax year in spain is the calendar year.
> 
> The U.K. tax year does not affect one’s tax liabilities in spain.
> 
> If a person MOVES to Spain (and in that case the 183 day rule does not apply) anytime in a tax year, they are taxable in Spain for that year.
> 
> As I said previously. One should take good professional advice on their particular circumstances.
> 
> NB The rules regarding tax between the U.K. and Spain (not the EU) are set out in the DOUBLE TAXATION AGREEMENT 2013.
> 
> see;-
> 
> https://assets.publishing.service.g...ent_data/file/507409/spain-dtc_-_in_force.pdf


Juan thanks for citing today's rules and some good advice. 

My caution is purely based on personal experience of spanish bureaucracy, and not taking the assumption nothing will change in the next 18 months. The thing about the UK tax year relates to not adding unnecessary complications. But each to their own.


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## Williams2

nigele2 said:


> Sorry William but that is the worst advice I've ever heard. Pipeman cannot risk becoming resident in Spain prior to 1st January 2021. And to be safe that needs to be after 6th April 2021. Even those dates assume he sells his house quickly.
> 
> Not only does he need to avoid being taxed on the house sale but also any disposal of assets or lump sums from pensions. And possibly make provision for any possible inheritance. And despite "project fear" we can see the reaction to Brexit on the currency and equity markets. No reason to rush to Euros.
> 
> Further, "while the goings good" sounds like you imagine Spain will no longer invite cash rich Brits to live in Spain? If you need a job the rules might change but what is it other than that, that you think will block pipeman's plans?
> 
> But if I was Pipeman I'd be glad of the time. There is no indication at the moment that Spanish property prices are moving north in many areas, so no need to rush on that front. And with climate change I'd research in great detail areas chosen in Spain for a new home. For example here near Cadiz we are over a kilometer from a very wide beach. But there is discussion of sea encroachment. Recently the beach bars, someway from the sea, where like paddling pools. Of course it will hopefully  be years till we need to build an ark but it still impacts the price of and ability to sell property.
> 
> And by 2021 Brexit will hopefully be very clear if not done and dusted. So Pipeman will have clarity on the future (well as much clarity as is ever available).
> 
> One thought pipeman. It might be worth opening a Euro account with your UK bank. I'm with Lloyds and the account is based in Jersey. (No it is not for millionaires - I wish)  It can be useful even with just a couple of hundred Euros in it. And it avoids the temptation to open a spanish account. My advice due to spanish bureaucracy would be to avoid making a spanish paper trail for as long as possible. Just IMHO.
> 
> But all the very best with your adventure.


Those who's lifetimes dream & ambition has been to move to Spain will move heaven and earth to
achieve their ambition, having done their groundwork years ago.
You could put off, put off, put off until the cows come home worrying about Brexit.


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## mrypg9

Quick point about offshore Jersey or Gibraltar base accounts with UK banks.
When I opened mine fifteen years ago you could do so with an initial deposit of a mere 100 $ £ or euros. Now an initial deposit of at least £25k is required.
If your balance falls below a certain level you end up paying hefty monthly 'service' charges.

Of course you will eventually need a Spanish account for paying of utility bills and some other things. 

I keep just enough in my Spanish account to cover such needs and use my offshore sterling and euro accounts to receive, save and change sterling income when the exchange rate is favourable.


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## Juan C

Pipe man. 

I guess you know that a person who is tax resident in Spain is obliged to inform the Spanish tax office of all assets held , even in part only, anywhere outside Spain which are in excess of a total of 50,000 euros in any of three groups: (a) bank deposits, (b) real estate and (c) securities etc.

The minimum fine for not declaring one or two items is 10,000 euros, up to 150% of the total sum not declared. Whilst those penalties have been appealed I do not believe the law has been changed.

Welcome to spain!


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## Alcalaina

According to Blevins Franks, a reputable company of financial advisers, you do _not_ have to pay CGT if you sell your primary residence in the UK to buy a new primary residence in Spain. Both properties have to be in the EEA so this may change after Brexit.

Also if you spend less than 183 days here in one calendar year you aren't liable to pay tax for that year. So if you move in July 2020 your first declaration will be in May 2022 for the calendar year 2021.


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## Juan C

Alcalaina said:


> According to Blevins Franks, a reputable company of financial advisers,
> 
> Also if you spend less than 183 days here in one calendar year you aren't liable to pay tax for that year. So if you move in July 2020 your first declaration will be in May 2022 for the calendar year 2021.


Please excuse me. I do not wish to appear argumentative but this is from the same source. It explains that the 183 rule does not apply if one MOVES to spain

https://www.blevinsfranks.com/news/article/spanish-residence-and-taxes

Quote (I have put ‘ if any ‘. in capitals)

The Spanish tax residence rules 

You are resident for tax purposes in Spain IF ANY of the following apply:

1) You spend more than 183 days in Spain cumulatively in a calendar year, whether or not you are formally registered. Temporary or sporadic absences are ignored for the purpose of this rule unless you can prove you are habitually resident in another country for over 183 days.

2) Your “centre of economic interests” is in Spain– i.e. the base for your economic or professional activities is in Spain. If you earn more income or have more assets here than in any other single country, Spain will be deemed the centre of economic activity, 

3) Your “centre of vital interests” is in Spain – i.e. your spouse lives here and/or your dependent minor children. In this case you are presumed Spanish resident, even if you spend less than 183 days here, unless you can prove otherwise.

There is no split-year treatment in Spain; you are either resident or non-resident for the whole fiscal year.


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## NickZ

The problem with that argument is it assumes the other country has no say in the matter. Spain is free to write any law it wants. The Uk has the same freedom. In the end you need to look at the tax treaty tie breakers. 

https://assets.publishing.service.g...ent_data/file/507409/spain-dtc_-_in_force.pdf

What the OP does prior to moving the UK will want it's share.


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## Juan C

Nick If one comes to live in spain, you are subject to Spanish tax rules

If there is any apparent conflict between spain and U.K. the DTA of 2013, I added a link earlier, resolves it. 

It is pretty straightforward. 

If you live in spain all income from U.K. is taxed in spain. 

The ONLY exceptions are income from property which ones lets in U.K. , that is taxable in U.K. but must be also declared in spain and maybe subject to additional top up tax. 

The other is income from crown pension, military, civil servants, police etc. That is taxable ONLY in U.K. but must be declared in spain where it will affect one‘a marginal tax rate. 

Example : I have a crown pension . I get no tax free allowance in spain thus all taxable income, my OAP, premium bonds (I wish) U.K. bank interest etc is taxes at 29% from the first euro.


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## Barriej

Im glad someone started a move thread. I was planning to.

We have finally put our move date to July 2020.

My private pension has been moved to free up the Uk tax free 25% and as this money will be in my private account before the end of 2019 and will removed into the Spanish bank account before we move (and its supposed to be there for at least 3 months before we do the residence appointment (so our solicitor said) I hope to pay no tax.

We have other savings so will only have to declare the interest (0.1%) so Im hopeful of not paying tax here either. But if I have to I will, after all I will then be a Spanish resident and should abide by all the local rules.

We will live off our savings for around 6 years and then I will start to draw my personal pension. Then 4 years later I will get my Uk old age pension. If tax is due it will be paid.

Our plans are as follows.

Book One way van hire and ferry by the middle of January.
Watch the exchange rate and move money over either monthly or in a lump sum.
Get the cat her pet passport (also easy since the UK should still be part of the EU)
See if the snake needs any paperwork? 
Get rid of all our rubbish, furniture and white goods (we have a furnished flat in Spain already)
Give the classic car to my son.
Sort out private healthcare before we move.
Hand the keys back to the landlord for the Uk flat.

Get ready for a new life in Spain.

Once in Spain get proper Spanish lessons.
Buy a car.
Within 3 months do the residence bit.
Send off my driving licence for a Spanish one (I have 9 years till it needs renewing) and after that I probably won't bother to drive. (if done before Dec 2020 I won't need to do a Spanish test)

We've been planning this for the last 5 years or so, but all the ducks were never quite in a row until last year.


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## nigele2

Barriej said:


> Once in Spain get proper Spanish lessons.


I'm guessing you currently have non-proper Spanish lessons 

But I'd push like hell on this unless you are very naturally talented language learners - or going to live in a Brit type enclave.

On driving we are near Cadiz with great and cheap local buses, cheap taxis, local and long distance trains, boat to Rota and Cadiz, and two airports within easy range. Don't miss the car one bit. Obviously depends where you live but that presumably is in your hands.

But looks like a plan. All the very best with it.


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## NickZ

Juan C said:


> Nick If one comes to live in spain, you are subject to Spanish tax rules
> 
> 
> .


I don't dispute that point. But the UK has an interest in taxing you . They will consider you a tax resident until you have established tax residency abroad. 

The way you've put it you could stay in the Uk until Dec 30th. Move and pay no taxes in the UK.


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## stevesainty

Pipeman said:


> I didn't know that... and I imagine the tax bill would be significant


It would depend on whether you made a capital gain or not. We bought a house in UK in 2008, near the top of the market. The value dropped for a few years and then started picking up again. We sold the house at the beginning of this year with a paper profit, but with no UK tax to pay after offsetting allowable expenses and UK CGT allowances.

With regards to Spanish tax on the sale, the exchange rate when buying was significantly different to when we sold, and so we made a paper loss, IE, in euros we sold it for less than we bought it for.


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## Juan C

Barrie

Firstly, your plans may need to change after Brexit, 31st January 2020. At present no one knows what will happen, so keep informed.

Be aware that moving to Spain will mean you become tax resident here immediately. 

The 183 day rule does not apply if you move here.

Therefore you need to get some good advice on your potential tax situation. 

Moving here in 2020 will mean you are tax resident here for the whole of that year. The money you will take from your pension pot may not be tax free in Spain. UK tax rules do not apply in Spain.

You also, if you have property in UK, you need to consider possible Capital Gains Tax on the sale of your house in UK. That is only tax free in Spain if you use the whole of the sale price to buy a family home in Spain

I suggest you do not rely upon the solicitor who said you need to have the funds in your Spanish bank account for three months in order to apply for EU Citizen Registration (resident status).

The three months applies to monthly pension payments, at least three months . 

However, as an EU citizen you need to have an income of around 8,500 euros p.a. as a couple, or to be able to prove you have that amount in savings. That does not mean the savings must be in Spain.


Once resident in Spain you will have to pay income tax here on your worldwide income. Under the Double Taxation Agreement 2013 you will be exempt from UK tax on the income you describe.

Good luck. 
Juan


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## Juan C

NickZ said:


> I don't dispute that point. But the UK has an interest in taxing you . They will consider you a tax resident until you have established tax residency abroad.
> 
> The way you've put it you could stay in the Uk until Dec 30th. Move and pay no taxes in the UK.


Read the Double Taxation Agreement 2013. 

It cover what you say.


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## Juan C

Barrie

In addition to above. I had a problem editing that post


To make the application you will need 100% medical cover without any co-payments. The policy must be in Spanish or translated by a court approved translator . Not cheap 


Good luck.


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## Barriej

nigele2 said:


> Barriej said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once in Spain get proper Spanish lessons.
> 
> I'm guessing you currently have non-proper Spanish lessons
> 
> But I'd push like hell on this unless you are very naturally talented language learners - or going to live in a Brit type enclave.
> 
> 
> 
> Im doing online stuff and listening in the van (I drive about 1000 miles a week for my job and stay away weeks on end) When Im not travelling through other European countries.
> 
> We have a place that is near to Alfaz del Pi and there is a large Scandinavian population, Dutch, Germany and of course Brits.
> 
> My Spanish is basic but it gets quite annoying when in shops I try to ask for stuff in Spanish and I'm answered in english.
> 
> The problem is ten years ago very few people in the local town (Polop) spoke any English, now quite a few do and they want to practice so they can improve to cater for the tourists that come through the year, when Ive said I want to speak better Spanish I get looked at, as if Im an idiot.
> 
> Same in some of the big Cities. I was in Barcelona earlier in the year and I went to get some bits, floor bolts and cable ties. (armed with Google translate) and one of the shops was quite short with me as they reckoned I was wasting their time as it was just easier to talk English. In fact the bloke asked me if I didn't see the sign that clearly said they speak english, german and russian..
> 
> We will learn Spanish and we will be able to make our selves understood. I doubt if we will ever become fluent though (My English isn't that good anyway being a Cockney )
Click to expand...


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## kaipa

Took me 3 years to learn Spanish. Now speak at a B2 nearly C1 level. The only way to learn is: first do an intensive course for at least 6 months. This will give you the basics which will raise you to around the A1/A2 level. Next you need to be able to use it daily in real life situations. This will consolidate and elevate you to B1. Real life interactions at B1 level will allow you to get higher level inputs with vocab. Then it slowly starts to grow from there. However, the key is being to use it routinely in real life situations which are varied and changing( No good just going to the same cafe each day and ordering the same things)
It's hard work. Most Brits ,even with the best intentions never get far. What I have found is if you live in an area with high level concentrations of English speakers then it rarely happens. You need to live somewhere where you are forced to use it.Also, the regularity of use has to be high, so working helps. Finally, you have to stop thinking about the UK in terms of reading uk news, watching BBC TV and radio, structuring you day around British timetable etc. 
Anyways that's how you do it in my opinion. Perfectly achievable but requires a complete rewiring of your identity. Oh...by the way, it's a really great fun when it starts to work.


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## Williams2

Barriej said:


> Im glad someone started a move thread. I was planning to.
> 
> We have finally put our move date to July 2020.
> 
> My private pension has been moved to free up the Uk tax free 25% and as this money will be in my private account before the end of 2019 and will removed into the Spanish bank account before we move (and its supposed to be there for at least 3 months before we do the residence appointment (so our solicitor said) I hope to pay no tax.
> 
> We have other savings so will only have to declare the interest (0.1%) so Im hopeful of not paying tax here either. But if I have to I will, after all I will then be a Spanish resident and should abide by all the local rules.
> 
> We will live off our savings for around 6 years and then I will start to draw my personal pension. Then 4 years later I will get my Uk old age pension. If tax is due it will be paid.
> 
> Our plans are as follows.
> 
> Book One way van hire and ferry by the middle of January.
> Watch the exchange rate and move money over either monthly or in a lump sum.
> Get the cat her pet passport (also easy since the UK should still be part of the EU)
> See if the snake needs any paperwork?
> Get rid of all our rubbish, furniture and white goods (we have a furnished flat in Spain already)
> *Give the classic car to my son.*
> Sort out private healthcare before we move.
> Hand the keys back to the landlord for the Uk flat.
> 
> Get ready for a new life in Spain.
> 
> Once in Spain get proper Spanish lessons.
> Buy a car.
> Within 3 months do the residence bit.
> Send off my driving licence for a Spanish one (I have 9 years till it needs renewing) and after that I probably won't bother to drive. (if done before Dec 2020 I won't need to do a Spanish test)
> 
> We've been planning this for the last 5 years or so, but all the ducks were never quite in a row until last year.


Your certainly well organised in what you plan to do although moving to Spain shouldn't curtail your love
for classic cars. Overandout says he drives 'classics' in Spain and will no doubt point you the right
direction for continuing your interest in classic cars.


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## Alcalaina

Juan C said:


> Please excuse me. I do not wish to appear argumentative but this is from the same source. It explains that the 183 rule does not apply if one MOVES to spain
> 
> https://www.blevinsfranks.com/news/article/spanish-residence-and-taxes
> 
> Quote (I have put ‘ if any ‘. in capitals)
> 
> The Spanish tax residence rules
> 
> You are resident for tax purposes in Spain IF ANY of the following apply:
> 
> 1) You spend more than 183 days in Spain cumulatively in a calendar year, whether or not you are formally registered. Temporary or sporadic absences are ignored for the purpose of this rule unless you can prove you are habitually resident in another country for over 183 days.
> 
> 2) Your “centre of economic interests” is in Spain– i.e. the base for your economic or professional activities is in Spain. If you earn more income or have more assets here than in any other single country, Spain will be deemed the centre of economic activity,
> 
> 3) Your “centre of vital interests” is in Spain – i.e. your spouse lives here and/or your dependent minor children. In this case you are presumed Spanish resident, even if you spend less than 183 days here, unless you can prove otherwise.
> 
> There is no split-year treatment in Spain; you are either resident or non-resident for the whole fiscal year.


None of this contradicts what I said. If you spend less than 183 days in Spain during 2020 you are not tax-resident and you don't have to do a declaration until 2022.


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## Juan C

Alcalaina said:


> Juan C said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please excuse me. I do not wish to appear argumentative but this is from the same source. It explains that the 183 rule does not apply if one MOVES to spain
> 
> https://www.blevinsfranks.com/news/article/spanish-residence-and-taxes
> 
> Quote (I have put ‘ if any ‘. in capitals)
> 
> The Spanish tax residence rules
> 
> You are resident for tax purposes in Spain IF ANY of the following apply:
> 
> 1) You spend more than 183 days in Spain cumulatively in a calendar year, whether or not you are formally registered. Temporary or sporadic absences are ignored for the purpose of this rule unless you can prove you are habitually resident in another country for over 183 days.
> 
> 2) Your “centre of economic interests” is in Spain– i.e. the base for your economic or professional activities is in Spain. If you earn more income or have more assets here than in any other single country, Spain will be deemed the centre of economic activity,
> 
> 3) Your “centre of vital interests” is in Spain – i.e. your spouse lives here and/or your dependent minor children. In this case you are presumed Spanish resident, even if you spend less than 183 days here, unless you can prove otherwise.
> 
> There is no split-year treatment in Spain; you are either resident or non-resident for the whole fiscal year.
> 
> 
> 
> None of this contradicts what I said. If you spend less than 183 days in Spain during 2020 you are not tax-resident and you don't have to do a declaration until 2022.
Click to expand...

Please read items 2 and 3 ? Neither of them have a time period. Thus if either apply one is tax resident.


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## Barriej

Juan C said:


> Barrie
> 
> Firstly, your plans may need to change after Brexit, 31st January 2020. At present no one knows what will happen, so keep informed.
> 
> Be aware that moving to Spain will mean you become tax resident here immediately.
> 
> The 183 day rule does not apply if you move here.
> 
> Therefore you need to get some good advice on your potential tax situation.
> 
> Moving here in 2020 will mean you are tax resident here for the whole of that year. The money you will take from your pension pot may not be tax free in Spain. UK tax rules do not apply in Spain.
> 
> You also, if you have property in UK, you need to consider possible Capital Gains Tax on the sale of your house in UK. That is only tax free in Spain if you use the whole of the sale price to buy a family home in Spain
> 
> I suggest you do not rely upon the solicitor who said you need to have the funds in your Spanish bank account for three months in order to apply for EU Citizen Registration (resident status).
> 
> The three months applies to monthly pension payments, at least three months .
> 
> However, as an EU citizen you need to have an income of around 8,500 euros p.a. as a couple, or to be able to prove you have that amount in savings. That does not mean the savings must be in Spain.
> 
> 
> Once resident in Spain you will have to pay income tax here on your worldwide income. Under the Double Taxation Agreement 2013 you will be exempt from UK tax on the income you describe.
> 
> Good luck.
> Juan


Morning.

Im not refuting any of your comments. But according to both the Uk gov website and the Eu one, there was an agreement in place that after the withdrawal happens nothing would change until the end of 2020. This has been the case during the whole of the Brexit farce. I agree it may change but Im hoping it doesn't (although I have all the info needed to apply as a 3rd country citizen)

Have spoken to a Spanish tax consultant who has said that due to the spanish tax year running Jan-dec as long as I take the money from my pension before 31st Dec 2019 it will not be includable in any tax return in Spain as long as I move after 1st Jan. As we plan to move around the 10th of July that gives me less than 183 days in 2020 so I'm safe there as well. Even if I move over and become tax resident. As we will be living off savings and will have no income i think we will pay no tax (although Im happy to pay if Im wrong)

I have no property in the Uk (well its not in my name) so Im ok there as well.

Our solicitor has said that for the last 3 months or so, the office in Alicante has required funds to have been in a Spanish bank for more than 3 months (as people were taking bank loans and repaying them after obtaining residence) They have said that Benidorm is slightly better in this regard. 

We have shed loads more than the 8500 in savings and will have enough in Spain to cover at least a years outgoings.

Private health insurance is approx 300 a month for the two of us (i have no health issues and my wife just has asthma and slightly high blood pressure)

If Ive made any errors Im happy to be corrected, but I have to be guided by the experts who I pay for advice to be correct.


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## Alcalaina

Juan C said:


> Please read items 2 and 3 ? Neither of them have a time period. Thus if either apply one is tax resident.


*IF* either of these apply. But in the case of most people doing a straightforward move from the UK to Spain, they don't already have a business or family here.


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## nigele2

Barriej sounds good to me. On getting 5 year card we went to the official office in Cadiz. Crap. Didn't have a clue. Asked for documents that were not required. We then went to the police station in Puerto Real (just a short distance away), all went smoothly. On cash they accepted an ATM balance print out of 6000 Euros (varies place to place). Do shop around. 

But be cool about delays. 

My MIL had a stroke just over a year ago. We have been inspected by several officials who all agree we need full support. The option to take money to fund helpers we were advised against as my MIL would be dead before it arrived. So we went for helpers. 3 months since last we heard anything.

However, my spanish wife last week received a letter requesting info on her employment in the UK so her pension could be calculated. She doesn't retire for almost two years. The letter said she must respond sending all documents (presumably translated) within 10 days.

Always keep your cool and never ignore the security guard/receptionist in official buildings. They can get things done. We've been grateful for their help more than once.

One last thought on help/advice you pay for. A director of the accountancy firm I use here (a company well established with over a dozen employees) advised me to break the law and not pay a tax


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## Barriej

Ive just printed off the latest requirements from both Alicante and Benidorm Offices regarding Residencia (these were supplied by our solicitor). I can only take this information as correct, as they process lots of applications a week.

For everyone.

1. Original Passport/ID and colour photocopy (note the word colour)
2. NIE and copy if already obtained
3. Passport sized picture
4. Padron certificate (not more than 3 months old)
5. Application form
6. Processing fee paid at bank.

So for me and the wife (we will apply as individuals)

Private pension or unearned income.

1. Letter from a Spanish bank confirming a minimum balance of €7000 each for 1st & 2nd person and €3500 each additional) with an up to date bank statement. We were also told that in November people were being asked where the money had come from if it had not been in the account for 3 months.
2. Certificate from private health co. With no copay etc. And the bank receipt showing the full years premium has been paid. Also bring the terms just in case as they have asked recently.

Thats it.

If we apply as a couple my wife or me are considered dependants. In which case we would need a legalised (apostle) copy of our massage certificate with sworn translation.

This is difficult for us as we got married in Barbados and if you think the paperwork in Spain is bad you aint seen nothing. I spent an hour on the phone to the high commission and then direct to the the Office in Bridgetown only to be told that they didn't think it was needed and even then it would be hundreds of dollars and might take 6 months!!!!!


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## Barriej

nigele2 said:


> But be cool about delays.
> 
> One last thought on help/advice you pay for. A director of the accountancy firm I use here (a company well established with over a dozen employees) advised me to break the law and not pay a tax


Will be cool. Wont be in any hurry once we are there...

And from past experience in tax matters, I would rather pay and then have to claim back.
Never cheat the tax man. I always overpaid on both tax and VAT when running our businesses.


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## paulhe

If Brexit happens, and the fight has gone out of me now as I realise it will happen, then UK citizens are likely to be in the same situation (regarding proof of living funds/income) as Australians currently are. I am a duel citizen and as all my family (and my wife's family) are in UK we planned a retirement in a couple of years spending 6 months in Spain (we have purchased in advance) and 6 months in Oz. 

A non - lucrative resident visa (required if - after Brexit, or in any event for Australians without a EU passport - I want to spend more than three months in Spain) requires proof of annual income of Euros 25560 per annum plus Euros 6390 for each additional family member. I cannot believe it would any less for UK citizens post Brexit.

If you can, move now or at least before the transitional period ends.

paul


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## Brexugee

Hey everyone,

Like others here, my wife and I are planning to move to Spain before the end of the transition period. We're both UK citizens but live in the US. I've read this whole thread but have a few questions and clarifications. 

@Barriej's post was really helpful, but I wasn't sure if that's for the initial paperwork when you first arrive, or after you've lived there for a while? Also, will it be essentially the same in Andalucia? We're thinking about living in the Granada area.

*Residency Docs*: I'm confused about the order of paperwork. Is this correct, or am I missing something?
- As soon as we arrive in Spain and have an address, we register as residents at a police station or immigration office. That will also give us our NIE. 
- After three months we register on the padron. Then nothing required until 5 years later?
- Other than the hassle of obtaining a translated and notarised marriage certificate, is there any advantage/disadvantage to applying singly or as a couple? If the latter, is it an issue that my wife kept her maiden name?
- Is it necessary to get a solicitor or would an English-speaking gestor be sufficient? Our Spanish is poor (hopefully a bit better before we go). 

*Income/Support*: We're both unemployed (or rather, marginally self-employed) and will be living on savings and investment income. In order to obtain the initial residence document, we will have to prove it is sufficient to support ourselves.
- How much is considered sufficient in assets? Our actual income from it is very low, but so are our expenses.
- Is it okay that all our accounts are in the UK and US? 
- There was a mention above of needing euros in a Spanish bank account, so at what stage would we need to open the account to be able to prove those funds? Presumably we need to be residents first? Is that €7000 each ALL we need to show, or the bank/investment statements as well?

*Healthcare*: 
- What are the minimum requirements? 
- Can we buy into the state system, or do we have to have private insurance? Which is better/cheaper? We're both fit and healthy (knock wood). 
- How do we go about comparing, or do all insurance companies offer essentially the same thing at the same price? (in the US, it's a complicated "marketplace" with various tiers).

*Taxes*: We informally own the house we live in, shared with a family member whose sole name is on the deed. For tax purposes, if she repays my share of the proceeds to me as a "loan" - which it technically is, actually - would that be taxable in Spain?
- I'm still unclear about the tax issue given the debate here: if we move in say September, would our 2020 income be liable for taxation in Spain or the US?

*General Plan and Timeframe* We're planning to travel to Spain in early Spring to finalise where we want to live.
- Should we secure accommodation at that time, and also do all the bank/health/residence documents, and _then_ return to the US to organise shipping our things, sort out the dog's documentation, etc. and return to settle in Spain a couple of months later? Or would it be better to simply make reconnaissance trip, then do all the practicalities later? The deadline makes us nervous - in fact, the whole process does!
- We plan to buy a house or flat, but is it advisable to rent first? There's an appeal to just buying a flat in Spring, having everything all set, then just moving in once the dog and shipping are sorted. If we rent in advance, we'd be wasted a couple of months rent money.

I'm sure there are a million other things I'm not considering.... :wacko: :shocked:


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## Overandout

Brexugee said:


> *Residency Docs*: I'm confused about the order of paperwork. Is this correct, or am I missing something?
> - As soon as we arrive in Spain and have an address, we register as residents at a police station or immigration office. That will also give us our NIE.
> - After three months we register on the padron. Then nothing required until 5 years later?
> - Other than the hassle of obtaining a translated and notarised marriage certificate, is there any advantage/disadvantage to applying singly or as a couple? If the latter, is it an issue that my wife kept her maiden name?
> - Is it necessary to get a solicitor or would an English-speaking gestor be sufficient? Our Spanish is poor (hopefully a bit better before we go).
> 
> I'm sure there are a million other things I'm not considering.... :wacko: :shocked:


 Just on this point, nobody can actually answer yet.

If there is a Brexit as per the currently agreed Withdraw Agreement, you will be able to arrive in Spain as if it were like today, at any time up until 31st December 2020, you must get your certificate of registration (green cert) before that date.
But if there is a "no deal" Brexit, the terms of the Withdraw Agreement will not apply, and the Royal Decree Law does not allow you to enter Spain under any different treatment that any other non-EU citizen.


----------



## Alcalaina

Brexugee said:


> @Barriej's post was really helpful, but I wasn't sure if that's for the initial paperwork when you first arrive, or after you've lived there for a while? Also, will it be essentially the same in Andalucia? We're thinking about living in the Granada area.
> 
> *Residency Docs*: I'm confused about the order of paperwork. Is this correct, or am I missing something?
> - As soon as we arrive in Spain and have an address, we register as residents at a police station or immigration office. That will also give us our NIE.
> - After three months we register on the padron. Then nothing required until 5 years later?


The place to go for NIE amd registration as an EU citizen resident in Spain is the Oficina de Extranjeria, usually (but not always) located in the National Police station (i.e. not the _policia local_). There's a list of them here. 
https://www.policia.es/documentacion/oficinas/andalucia.html

You have up to three months to do this, but you don't have to wait three months to go on the_ padrón_. You can do that as soon as you have an address.

Theoretically it should be the same in Andalucia as anywhere else, but even within Andalucia individual offices can vary in the requirements for residency.

At some point (timing still tbc) you'll change your residency status to that of a non-EU citizen by applying for a TIE (_tarjeta de identidad de extranjero_).

Can't help with the rest, but wish you the best of luck!


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## kaipa

Just on this point, nobody can actually answer yet.
If there is a Brexit as per the currently agreed Withdraw Agreement, you will be able to arrive in Spain as if it were like today, at any time up until 31st December 2020, you must get your certificate of registration (green cert) before that date. But if there is a "no deal" Brexit, the terms of the Withdraw Agreement will not apply, and the Royal Decree Law does not allow you to enter Spain under any different treatment


Are you sure? I thought that if the WA is passes on the 31 Jan 2020 then we have left the EU but have a 1 year extension ( that Boris says he wo t extend) to ratify a trade agreement. Doesnt it mean that the aspects like citizens rights will be enshrined in the WA irrespective of the trade deal?


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## Overandout

kaipa said:


> Just on this point, nobody can actually answer yet.
> If there is a Brexit as per the currently agreed Withdraw Agreement, you will be able to arrive in Spain as if it were like today, at any time up until 31st December 2020, you must get your certificate of registration (green cert) before that date. But if there is a "no deal" Brexit, the terms of the Withdraw Agreement will not apply, and the Royal Decree Law does not allow you to enter Spain under any different treatment
> 
> 
> Are you sure? I thought that if the WA is passes on the 31 Jan 2020 then we have left the EU but have a 1 year extension ( that Boris says he wo t extend) to ratify a trade agreement. Doesnt it mean that the aspects like citizens rights will be enshrined in the WA irrespective of the trade deal?


The WA states that the transition period is provisionally until 31st December 2020. During that period all agreements must be closed including trade, but also citizen's status. 
For the effects of inter-community immigration, the EU freedom of movement remains in place until the end of the transition period. So if Boris caps the period to end of 2020, all will have to be sorted by then.


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## Megsmum

*British citizens in Spain after 31st 2020*

We have so many pre Brexit, post Brexit and nearly there threads. I thought it might be better to possibly, shut the others all down and have one definitive post WA thread for the transition period, as now at last, we now have an accurate time scale re citizens rights etc and we can discuss any issues that may and will probably arise. I, personally am finding that several threads have amalgamated into a myriad of themes, and as we are now heading into the “serious” issues, a one stop shop would be easier to follow. Can we keep this to rights etc, questions and various experiences on getting the appropriate paperwork, TIE cards and any other updates for either the EU the U.K. or the Spanish government.


So I’ll start with the link Baldi added yesterday 


http://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-i...&utm_content=immediate#uk-nationals-in-the-eu


Nothing more to add really


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## xabiaxica

Let's keep this thread to facts & experiences.

I've moved some opinion posts to here https://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/1493150-ongoing-brexit-saga-opinions.html


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## jakethepeg

What are the rules regarding health insurance for those UK citizens who receive the state pension, does the S1 still cover it during the transition period or is a third party insurance required?


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## Juan C

Jake. Simple answer is yes the S1 arrangement is still as it was


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## Alcalaina

jakethepeg said:


> What are the rules regarding health insurance for those UK citizens who receive the state pension, does the S1 still cover it during the transition period or is a third party insurance required?


Yes, everything stays as it is now until 31 December 2020. After that - we´ll have to wait and see! :fingerscrossed::fingerscrossed::fingerscrossed:


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## jimenato

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, everything stays as it is now until 31 December 2020. After that - we´ll have to wait and see! :fingerscrossed::fingerscrossed::fingerscrossed:


Is that provided the withdrawal agreement is ratified for Jan 31st?


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## Alcalaina

jimenato said:


> Is that provided the withdrawal agreement is ratified for Jan 31st?


Has it not been? I thought it was full steam ahead but I confess I haven't been paying much attention ... Spanish politics rather more urgent at the moment.


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## jakethepeg

Thanks to those who replied Until very recently I had been focused on France, I have grandchildren there and speak shopping French, however the procedures for residence are more onerous than Spain. My daughter now wants to buy a property in Spain, which we could caretake so I am now looking at Spain instead. So in a nutshell, if it is possible to condense it, what immediate steps should I take?? We have lived all over the world and our children have been born in 5 different countries as we have traveled so challenges are part of our life. And as Private Fraser says "Don't Panic"


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## Megsmum

Alcalaina said:


> Has it not been? I thought it was full steam ahead but I confess I haven't been paying much attention ... Spanish politics rather more urgent at the moment.


As far as I am aware, it has been ratified by parliament and it is “full steam ahead” If a U.K. government with a stonking majority couldn’t get it through then there is no hope

/SNIP/


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## xabiaxica

I've had a tidy up.

Non-relevant posts (& part posts) can now be found in the relevant threads in La Tasca.


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## ShoulIStayOrShouldIGo

As ever there is conflicting information about this all over the interweb.

When the UK 'leaves' the EU on 31st January (in 2 weeks time) will the 90 day rule start from then or will that start from the end of the year?


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## ShoulIStayOrShouldIGo

*Best 180 (90x2) days?*

Hi.

So, strategies for us that will become subject to the Schengen tourist rules of spending a maximum of 90 days within 180 days in Spain.

What would you suggest is the best way to do this? And when?

Two 90 day blocks? Avoid August. Home or abroad for Christmas?

Currently I'm back in the UK and it's freezing, cold, wet and damp and dark pretty much all day. 
If I could I would fly back to Southern Spain almost immediately. Though a retired family member would rather 'get some sun' so prefers to wait until March (And spend the 90 days from March through to end of May).

Is anyone here in the same boat? What are your plans? What would people suggest? Thanks.


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## Pipeman

As I understand it, it's 90 days in any 180 days, so you can't do Oct - Nov - Dec, Mar - Apr - May, but could do Oct - Nov - Dec, Apr - May - June


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## Alcalaina

ShoulIStayOrShouldIGo said:


> As ever there is conflicting information about this all over the interweb.
> 
> When the UK 'leaves' the EU on 31st January (in 2 weeks time) will the 90 day rule start from then or will that start from the end of the year?


As I undertand it nothing will change until the end of the transition period, currently 31 Dec 2020.


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## xabiaxica

Pipeman said:


> As I understand it, it's 90 days in any 180 days, so you can't do Oct - Nov - Dec, Mar - Apr - May, but could do Oct - Nov - Dec, Apr - May - June


That's correct. They can't be consecutive.

But the 180 days 'roll', so the time spent in Spain can be in lots of little chunks - they don't have to be exactly 90 in 90 out.

This should help. 

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/visa-calculator/?fbclid=IwAR1-bzqALjqM8aQva-NCWPtwCJylLZ94bfb3xVStdlThlNbd9D7Rgc6ADSE


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## b0ll0cks-to-brexit

I would advise people to stay clear from unofficial websites with back-street information.

Only use official gov websites for true information.

https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/visa-policy/schengen_area_en

Some EU states allow you to extend your 90 day stay under national laws.
However, you must exit from same state that gave you 90 day extension.
Extensions are subject to conditions, i.e. funds, accommodation, health cover, etc.
You have to be careful with number of days spent in same state as you could become liable for tax.


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## Alcalaina

The Spanish government said a while ago that they were still considering what to do about Brits with holiday homes here. So its quite possible that they will be more flexible, especially if the British government softens its line on EU nationals living in the UK.

Good to see Guy Verhofstadt is on the case.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...deportation-of-eu-citizens-verhofstadt-brexit


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## Juan C

Alcalaina said:


> The Spanish government said a while ago that they were still considering what to do about Brits with holiday homes here.......]


You might be right, but as far as I know , non EU nationals with property in spain have not had any preferential treatment, so why would non EU brits be treated any differently from other non EU nationals?


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## Alcalaina

Juan C said:


> You might be right, but as far as I know , non EU nationals with property in spain have not had any preferential treatment, so why would non EU brits be treated any differently from other non EU nationals?


Because large numbers of Brits purchased properties in Spain to live here for part of the year, in the expectation that their rights as EU citizens would continue indefinitely. Not the case with Russians or Americans, who never had those rights in the first place.


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## suiko

*moving to Spain*

hi all

Another long-time lurker who some of you may remember from my house-buying threads a couple of years ago.... I used to live in Spain many moons ago but made a Faustian bargain to go back to the UK for work reasons 20 years ago, but always wanted to live in Spain in the long term....

Now the battle has been lost I am fairly convinced that if I want to live in Spain in future I need to move there before the end of 2020. I haven't done this so far because my work teaching English in Spain is going to be a whole lot less lucrative and rewarding than my job here in England. 

But time seems to have come to bite that bullet. I intend to sell my house here and buy a smaller one, renting it out but keeping a room for myself to use from time to time. I have rental income from a flat here, and will hopefully have more from the smaller house I intend to buy. I'm 55 so will presumably leave my pension inactive until I need it. I will initially rent in Spain rather than buy - there's no special reason to buy right now, as I will presumably need to work in a city and would rather buy in a village. I am likely to be moving in autumn 2020, probably to Andalucía.

My questions:

WORK
The only work likely to be available for me is EFL teaching. I did this for many years and have qualifications (though unused for these 20 years). 
1. I have seen that almost all jobs now demand an EU passport. Obviously I will have one during 2020, but what happens when I need to get a new contract for the 2021-2 academic year? 
2. Teaching jobs in Spain hardly ever generate more than a nine-month contract. How will this affect my residency rights? Is a permanent contract required?

PENSION
3. What are the financial implications of leaving my pension untouched for the time being? What implications does this have if I want to take a lump sum? Obviously I am likely to be tax resident in Spain by the time I do this, unless I take special action this year. I don't have any special need to take a lump sum, apart from buying a nice place in Spain perhaps.

MOVING
4. I have read on here that to get residency I need to have proof of money in a Spanish bank account (which has been there for three months). At what stage is this required? Presumably after doing the extranjería/padrón stuff?


Many thanks for any advice 

Mark


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## Juan C

NB This is the situation pre Brexit. 

Mark, if you *MOVE* to Spain and are legally working there, then you will meet the requirements (financial and medical) to register as an EU citizen (green paper certificate). If you do not work then you will need to prove income and that you have 100% medical cover with no co-payments.

You mentioned about letting a property in UK. You must declare that income for tax in UK and also declare it in Spain as there might be a small top up tax to pay in Spain. You do not pay (the same) tax twice. Apart from the rental income, you will be obliged to declare your worldwide income and assets over 50,000€ (See form 720 info on Internet)


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## baldilocks

suiko said:


> MOVING
> 4. I have read on here that to get residency I need to have proof of money in a Spanish bank account (which has been there for three months). At what stage is this required? Presumably after doing the extranjería/padrón stuff?


No. You need that for when you got to Extranjería to register as a resident, which should be done within 90 days of arrival. Once you have registered as a resident then you can sign onto the local Padrón.


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## paulhe

paulhe said:


> If Brexit happens, and the fight has gone out of me now as I realise it will happen, then UK citizens are likely to be in the same situation (regarding proof of living funds/income) as Australians currently are. I am a duel citizen and as all my family (and my wife's family) are in UK we planned a retirement in a couple of years spending 6 months in Spain (we have purchased in advance) and 6 months in Oz.
> 
> A non - lucrative resident visa (required if - after Brexit, or in any event for Australians without a EU passport - I want to spend more than three months in Spain) requires proof of annual income of Euros 25560 per annum plus Euros 6390 for each additional family member. I cannot believe it would any less for UK citizens post Brexit.
> 
> If you can, move now or at least before the transitional period ends.
> 
> paul


further to my above post. I have now discovered that Australia has bilateral visa waiver arrangements with various countries one of which is Spain. These arrangements allow an extra 60 - 90 days beyond the Schengen visa period of 90 days. Depending on the country this arrangement may require the holder to exit the Schengen area and re-enter (Germany for example) or to use the extra days at the end of the Schengen period. Spain and i think Germany require you to obtain a Schengen visa prior to leaving Australia and then the extra 90 days follows without further visa (subject in Germany's case to leaving and then re- entering). The ETIAS system will apply to non - EU citizens from 2021 but i don't think the bilateral arrangements will change as a consequence.

I have duel citizenship therefore if this arrangement remains in place when I retire I will use my Aus passport to stay in Spain for 90+90 days., if the UK does not negotiate similar. We (UK) should lobby for this sort of arrangement post brexit - it is bilateral and requires the UK to reciprocate which may cause problems.

paul


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## MataMata

The main problem with reciprocation is that in the main you are talking about very different groups of people.

On the one hand you have many Brits wishing to take extended breaks in Spain well in excess of 90 days while traffic the other way is more likely be Spanish looking to live and work in UK and for some will smack too much of free movement.


----------



## serenajerome

*Residency after transition period*

Hi all
Going through the figures and process of residency after I retire.
I can not manage to retire and thus gain residency until 2021.
It would cost me too much in tax and lost pension I work for the nhs so my lump sum would be taxed and I would loose out due to early retirement.
I know nothing is sorted and will seek professional advice nearer the time.
I would like to know what is the requirements money wise for residency for a non eu citizen. I have used our friend google but can’t find it for some reason.
Also having a property in Spain would this help in any way towards the money pot?
Thanks in advance for any advice.


----------



## Alcalaina

serenajerome said:


> Hi all
> Going through the figures and process of residency after I retire.
> I can not manage to retire and thus gain residency until 2021.
> It would cost me too much in tax and lost pension I work for the nhs so my lump sum would be taxed and I would loose out due to early retirement.
> I know nothing is sorted and will seek professional advice nearer the time.
> I would like to know what is the requirements money wise for residency for a non eu citizen. I have used our friend google but can’t find it for some reason.
> Also having a property in Spain would this help in any way towards the money pot?
> Thanks in advance for any advice.


Hi, welcome.

It is still not clear exactly what the residency requirements will be at that stage, but we have to assume they will be the same as citizens from other non-EU countries. So if you don't have a job to come to, you could be required to prove income of somewhere around €25,000 a year (?) plus private health insurance. I don't think already owning a property will make any difference.

If you apply for residency before *31 Dec 2020* you can still get it on the same terms as EU citizens, i.e. private health insurance plus around €7.000 a year. Then the switch to a non-EU residency status (TIE) should be straightforward (or so we are told).

So unless there is an extension to the transition period (quite possible!) you have to weigh up the pros and cons of retiring in 2020. Good luck with that!


----------



## Juan C

Serena. If your NHS pension’s is a crown pension, so like ex military, civil
servants, police etc.then it, and any income from rental property in U.K., can only be taxed in U.K. 

That is confirmed by the Double Taxation Agreement 2013 between spain and U.K. 

The amount of the crown pension is taken into consideration when one declares the remainder of their worldwide income. It determines the rate of tax on all other income and can result in the amount of tax paid being much higher. All my other income including my OAP is taxed at 29%


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## serenajerome

Thanks for the replies.
The figures are round what I thought if I retire this year and apply for residency I will need to pay tax on my lump sum which will be quite a significant amount.
NHS pension does not come under the government banner so not protected. 
I will need to wait till nearer the time and if all else fails pay the tax we won't be getting a pension of £50000 between us that's for sure.


----------



## Joppa

Currently you need an income of 26,000 € a year as a non-EU citizen to meet the income requirement for residency.


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## paulhe

As I said above the official amount required for Australians who are non-EU citizens is Euro 25560 plus for each additional family member E6390 - so in total per annum for a retired couple would be Euros 31950. Here is the link to the Embassy of Spain 

http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Embaja...s/081116 NON LUCRATIVE RESIDENT VISA RS2.pdf

This is the minimum requirement determined by Spain. i doubt it would be different for any other non-EU nationals including UK after Brexit transitional period.

There will be many who cannot meet the requirement but equally my point is that many also do not wish to live full-time year round and become tax resident but want the flexibility of more than 90 days in ay 180 day period. Many have holiday homes . Some people may be ok with staying 90 day block in 180 days. For those that visit their holiday home for a week here or weekend there, an EU calculator that you can use here 

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/visa-calculator/

The 180 days period keeps rolling and as the site states travelers often get confused by this rule, and fail to calculate how long they have stayed in Europe, and how long they are permitted to remain.

The bilateral visa waver arrangements do not allow person to work and so i cannot understand why such an arrangement would not be negotiated by UK with Spain.

Paul


----------



## Williams2

I've come across countless number of Expats who work from home over the internet but
keep quite about it, no doubt trying to take advantage of the grey areas brought about
by the rise of the Digital Nomads.


----------



## paulhe

Williams2 said:


> I've come across countless number of Expats who work from home over the internet but
> keep quite about it, no doubt trying to take advantage of the grey areas brought about
> by the rise of the Digital Nomads.


Forgive me if i have misunderstood your post but if it was in reply to mine you clearly missed my point. I do not want to live and work in Spain 'under the radar' I want to spend time in Spain as I choose subject to the law, viz., ideally without Brexit travel feely when I want . Not have to complete the EU calculator for schegen visa holders . Not have to worry about visiting my property for maintenance after i have already spent my 90 days in 180 (and in those circumstances not being allowed to do so). If UK does not have the bilateral visa waiver then i will use my Aus passport, no problem.

Post Brexit there will be no UK nomads in Spain, digital or otherwise, They will be tax resident, successful in applying for a long term visa, or deported for overstay.
Paul


----------



## Williams2

paulhe said:


> Forgive me if i have misunderstood your post but if it was in reply to mine you clearly missed my point. I do not want to live and work in Spain 'under the radar' I want to spend time in Spain as I choose subject to the law, viz., ideally without Brexit travel feely when I want . Not have to complete the EU calculator for schegen visa holders . Not have to worry about visiting my property for maintenance after i have already spent my 90 days in 180 (and in those circumstances not being allowed to do so). If UK does not have the bilateral visa waiver then i will use my Aus passport, no problem.
> 
> Post Brexit there will be no UK nomads in Spain, digital or otherwise, They will be tax resident, successful in applying for a long term visa, or deported for overstay.
> Paul


I was replying to no one Paul, simply stating what I encounter when visiting some Expats homes.

As for the Digital Nomads from what I've seen from the chatter on the Internet, many of them
include Non EU Citizens who live a 'No fixed Abode' lifestyle where they only stay for the maximum
visitor stay duration before moving camp to another country, where they work from home ( rented
or tourist apartments, AirBnB, etc ) before again moving to another country.
It's not for everyone but for the Young Digitally Upwardly Mobile Phone Generation, its the 'in thing'


----------



## Juan C

paulhe said:


> Post Brexit there will be no UK nomads in Spain, digital or otherwise, They will be tax resident, successful in applying for a long term visa, or deported for overstay.
> Paul


You may be right, but I am aware of quite a few illegals form outside the EU who have been living here without any problems for, in some cases, many years. I do not know one who has ben deported yet.

I suspect that Brits, illegally here after brexit, may do the same also without many problems, but time will tell !


----------



## cisco kid

*Residency*

Hi all
We, my wife and I are both UK resident pensioners, we are intending to move to Spain in 2020. If we were to take out Spanish residency before the end of the Brexit transitional period (31 Dec 2020) thereby becoming Spanish residents would our UK pensions be stopped because we are no longer UK residents? I also have a Civil Service occupational pension.
Any advice would be very much appreciated.
Thanks very much
Steve.


----------



## paulhe

Juan C said:


> You may be right, but I am aware of quite a few illegals form outside the EU who have been living here without any problems for, in some cases, many years. I do not know one who has ben deported yet.
> 
> I suspect that Brits, illegally here after brexit, may do the same also without many problems, but time will tell !


I don't doubt there are many nomads, van living culture is massive but I would have thought a lot of those guys are young and certainly under the age of those that can access longer stay visas as a cultural exchange for example. Maybe I am naive however I would not want to take that sort of chance, I want to do the right thing, particularly as I own a home in Spain. I am certain member countries detect over-stayers and fine or ban them. 

It is clear that over-stayers are caught however, usually fined I believe and in some cases banned from reentering. I imagine that may happen more to non - EU citizens from a country that requires an application for a Schegen visa. However for either case there would be an entry point and exit point by which the authorities would be able to identify such people. 

See here how individual countries record and deal with over - stayers 

http://www.statewatch.org/news/2015/jul/eu-council-overstayers-in-the-eu-8744-add1-15.pdf

Greece for example - When an overstayer is attempting to leave the member states crossing the external borders, the border guard is imposing a fine for overstaying the amount of which ranges between 600 and 1200 euros. At the same time an alert about a ban of entry for overstay is registered for him in the national database. 

Paul


----------



## High flyer

cisco kid said:


> Hi all
> We, my wife and I are both UK resident pensioners, we are intending to move to Spain in 2020. If we were to take out Spanish residency before the end of the Brexit transitional period (31 Dec 2020) thereby becoming Spanish residents would our UK pensions be stopped because we are no longer UK residents? I also have a Civil Service occupational pension.
> Any advice would be very much appreciated.
> Thanks very much
> Steve.


No they would not be stopped, but may? Not be uplifted each year as in the U.K others on this forum might know how that aspect would work after brexit.


----------



## Juan C

Your crown pension will not be affected by you moving to spain. By law it will be taxed only in U.K. but it must also be declared in Spain. It will affect the rate at which you are taxed on other income. As a result of my crown pension my tax rate starts at 29% from the first euro.

No one knows what will happen in the long term regarding the S1 medical cover or the OAP but for the time being they will be subject to existing rules. All income, except crown pensions and rental income in U.K. will taxed in spain


----------



## tebo53

cisco kid said:


> Hi all
> We, my wife and I are both UK resident pensioners, we are intending to move to Spain in 2020. If we were to take out Spanish residency before the end of the Brexit transitional period (31 Dec 2020) thereby becoming Spanish residents would our UK pensions be stopped because we are no longer UK residents? I also have a Civil Service occupational pension.
> Any advice would be very much appreciated.
> Thanks very much
> Steve.


Hi Steve, 

If you achieve residential status in Spain before Brexit is fully settled then you will get your UK pension (and at the moment) the annual increases, if any.

I am a pensioner fully resident in Spain and have my private pension and UK government pension paid into a UK bank account which I transfer through a money transfer service to a Spanish bank account. 

Don't leave it to long if you intend on living permanently in Spain as there is a lot to do to gain residential status. Do your research now into the legalities of living in Spain such as healthcare and getting your NIE number and amounts of income required so not to become a burden on the state etc. 

After Brexit requirements may differ as yet no-one knows!

Steve


----------



## suiko

Thanks, Juan, for answering my question.

I have no doubt I would easily find work as an EFL teacher in autumn 2020. But would my situation in autumn 2021 be just the same as if I'd just arrived? By then I would not be an EU citizen, and all jobs seems to specify EU passport as essential. Almost all jobs in the academia sector are nine-month non-renewable contracts. Also no sure how this might affect my residency rights?

So would I actually gain much by doing this? As I understand it, the main gain from moving in 2020 would be that the 90 day rule would not apply, but presumably I'd still have to demonstrate at least €25000 in my account at all times?


----------



## MataMata

You do not need to demonstrate any amount of cash only sufficient regular income to be able to support yourself, currently around €700-750 per month.


----------



## suiko

Thanks. That's good, at least. But I'm still in some doubt, given I'm planning to work, at least initially, that I will be significantly better off if I move this year. Any other views?


----------



## kaipa

With respect to your potential work as a Teacher: I have worked teaching in spain recently. Yes, it is hard to get permanent contracts so you would have to apply for another job sometime during your stay. I have no idea how the system will work but assume that as a resident you will be treated the same as all other 3rd country residents and therefore have a right to work.
I'm not sure when you last worked teaching in spain but you mention 20 years. If that is the case alot has changed. You are only worth your salt if you have extensive knowledge of the Cambridge exams as they are used everywhere as official proof of language ability and most graduates now seek them for their CVs.
Next, money. The wages here are pitiful and have not really changed at all. Expect tops at 12 Euros an hour teaching. Expect no preparation or marking pay. Most schools will probably offer only 9!!!. Expect to you teach as young as 3 to Advanced level. Expect 25% of your wage to be paid black, this will mean reduced SS payments plus an official salary at a level which would be equivalent of UK employment benefits. I had a rental income from UK and , due to family circumstances was forced to stay in spain. Eventually the humiliation of earning 600 euros a month whilst being berated by parents telling me that they didnt want their children to be taught the Present tenses because they knew them , I gave up. 
Now I have a job as an examiner and travel around the world testing in various schools. I have a proper contract, decent pay and the support of a professional teaching organisation.


----------



## Juan C

The income required for EU Nationals is around 8,800 euros p.a. for a couple. 

For non EU nationals who will
not be working, it is I believe around 27,000 p.a. for an individual, a little more for a couple. 

Other than for family members of residents in EU, do not know the rules for non EU nationals who will be working


----------



## Lynn R

Saw this mentioned elsewhere, seems helpful and indicates that UK citizens will not be asked to prove income and healthcare all over again to obtain a TIE (and it's an official Spanish Government website).

Brexit. What if there is a deal?. Ministry of Labour, Migrations & Social Security


----------



## Juan C

Lynn R said:


> Saw this mentioned elsewhere, seems helpful and indicates that UK citizens will not be asked to prove income and healthcare all over again to obtain a TIE (and it's an official Spanish Government website).
> 
> Brexit. What if there is a deal?. Ministry of Labour, Migrations & Social Security


Just in passing. 

At some at least, extranjerías, EU nationals have been required to renew their EU citizen registrations after the first five years. When doing so, they have been, and still are, required to produce evidence of income and medical cover as they were when first applying.


----------



## kaipa

This new post confirms what my wifes law firm ( who process lots of residency citas) has said. Everyone who is legally resident before 31st of Jan 2020 will be able to remain but will not immediately need to change anything only those arriving during the transition will be processed fof TIEs. In other words there is really no need to panic. Unlike in UK where EU citizens never needed to register as residents until now ,we did. This means even if you have lost your documents your registration will be officially recorded and accessible to the spanish officers and your status will remain.


----------



## Pipeman

Does anyone have a simple rental agreement they could share? We're relocating to Moraira in July and staying at a friends apartment (we've stayed there several times over the past few years) to use as abase until we find a place of our own.

To assist with residency I will need to provide proof of address and I'm thinking a simple rental agreement (in Spanish) would suffice...sort of 6 months with option to extend, payment of £/E inclusive of all bills, no deposit, 1 month's notice either way etc...

I've pinged a couple of local solicitors but not had a response on costs yet.

Also, does anyone know of a good gestor in or around Moraira to assist with NIE / Bank account opening etc ?


----------



## xabiaxica

Pipeman said:


> Does anyone have a simple rental agreement they could share? We're relocating to Moraira in July and staying at a friends apartment (we've stayed there several times over the past few years) to use as abase until we find a place of our own.
> 
> To assist with residency I will need to provide proof of address and I'm thinking a simple rental agreement (in Spanish) would suffice...sort of 6 months with option to extend, payment of £/E inclusive of all bills, no deposit, 1 month's notice either way etc...
> 
> I've pinged a couple of local solicitors but not had a response on costs yet.
> 
> Also, does anyone know of a good gestor in or around Moraira to assist with NIE / Bank account opening etc ?


There's a pro forma rental agreement which follows current law in the rental section of the FAQs sticky thread.


----------



## Williams2

paulhe said:


> I don't doubt there are many nomads, van living culture is massive but I would have thought a lot of those guys are young and certainly under the age of those that can access longer stay visas as a cultural exchange for example. Maybe I am naive however I would not want to take that sort of chance, I want to do the right thing, particularly as I own a home in Spain. I am certain member countries detect over-stayers and fine or ban them.
> 
> It is clear that over-stayers are caught however, usually fined I believe and in some cases banned from reentering. I imagine that may happen more to non - EU citizens from a country that requires an application for a Schegen visa. However for either case there would be an entry point and exit point by which the authorities would be able to identify such people.
> 
> See here how individual countries record and deal with over - stayers
> 
> http://www.statewatch.org/news/2015/jul/eu-council-overstayers-in-the-eu-8744-add1-15.pdf
> 
> Greece for example - When an overstayer is attempting to leave the member states crossing the external borders, the border guard is imposing a fine for overstaying the amount of which ranges between 600 and 1200 euros. At the same time an alert about a ban of entry for overstay is registered for him in the national database.
> 
> Paul


Well you will find that true Digital Nomads NEVER overstay his or her visitor duration welcome, this being the usual
90 days in a 180 day period.
The over-stayers you highlighted above are NOT TRUE Digital Nomads and the next country they go to
after an EU or Schegen visa area country, is a non EU or Schegen visa area country; until such time as they can
once more enter a Schegen visa area country ( taking into account periods spent away in other countries outside
the EU ) as a visitor again. They could even be reseting the clock by going back to their home nation
again but not staying long enough to be counted as permanently resident.

Of course Digital Nomads that are also citizens of one of the EU 27 States ( excluding the UK ) will continue
to enjoy freedom of movement between member states and therefore will carry on enjoying more
choice ( within Europe ) in their Nomading.

True Digital Nomads by and large are not limited to one Continental area either and
can carry on their online work anywhere including those former Soviet Republics outside the EU.
They might even not return to the EU or the European continent again for some time, if they decide that
exploring South America, Africa or Asia is of interest to them.

As I said before Digital Nomading tends to be for the 18 to 30 brigade, who have established a niche business
or skill-set for themselves online and are not limited by geographic location to carry on their business.


----------



## suiko

kaipa said:


> With respect to your potential work as a Teacher: I have worked teaching in spain recently. Yes, it is hard to get permanent contracts so you would have to apply for another job sometime during your stay. I have no idea how the system will work but assume that as a resident you will be treated the same as all other 3rd country residents and therefore have a right to work.
> I'm not sure when you last worked teaching in spain but you mention 20 years. If that is the case alot has changed. You are only worth your salt if you have extensive knowledge of the Cambridge exams as they are used everywhere as official proof of language ability and most graduates now seek them for their CVs.
> Next, money. The wages here are pitiful and have not really changed at all. Expect tops at 12 Euros an hour teaching. Expect no preparation or marking pay. Most schools will probably offer only 9!!!. Expect to you teach as young as 3 to Advanced level. Expect 25% of your wage to be paid black, this will mean reduced SS payments plus an official salary at a level which would be equivalent of UK employment benefits. I had a rental income from UK and , due to family circumstances was forced to stay in spain. Eventually the humiliation of earning 600 euros a month whilst being berated by parents telling me that they didnt want their children to be taught the Present tenses because they knew them , I gave up.
> Now I have a job as an examiner and travel around the world testing in various schools. I have a proper contract, decent pay and the support of a professional teaching organisation.


Yeah, I know the score. I did a lot of Cambridge stuff and was an examiner - obviously a fair while ago. I only worked in good schools, which did pay better than that, but obviously I'm aware these are a small minority. 

Basically this is a means of getting a contract that will allow me to claim residency, and to give me something to do in the short term.

My main concern is that, while I am sure I would find something in autumn 2020, where would I be in autumn 2021 when most schools (even many of the rubbish ones) state that an EU passport is essential? 

What's your take on this? Obviously if Brits can't get work there will be a shortage of native speaker teachers. But equally schools will need to prove that there is no EU citizen available to do the job, and to take on the necessary bureaucratic procedures. As someone with more recent experience than me, what do you think will happen?


----------



## Barriej

Williams2 said:


> Well you will find that true Digital Nomads NEVER overstay his or her visitor duration welcome, this being the usual
> 90 days in a 180 day period.
> The over-stayers you highlighted above are NOT TRUE Digital Nomads and the next country they go to
> after an EU or Schegen visa area country, is a non EU or Schegen visa area country; until such time as they can
> once more enter a Schegen visa area country ( taking into account periods spent away in other countries outside
> the EU ) as a visitor again. They could even be reseting the clock by going back to their home nation
> again but not staying long enough to be counted as permanently resident.
> 
> Of course Digital Nomads that are also citizens of one of the EU 27 States ( excluding the UK ) will continue
> to enjoy freedom of movement between member states and therefore will carry on enjoying more
> choice ( within Europe ) in their Nomading.
> 
> True Digital Nomads by and large are not limited to one Continental area either and
> can carry on their online work anywhere including those former Soviet Republics outside the EU.
> They might even not return to the EU or the European continent again for some time, if they decide that
> exploring South America, Africa or Asia is of interest to them.
> 
> As I said before Digital Nomading tends to be for the 18 to 30 brigade, who have established a niche business
> or skill-set for themselves online and are not limited by geographic location to carry on their business.


I spent a couple of hours reading through the pdf. And, while Im not a nomad. I would have thought it easy to avoid being caught.
Looking at most of the countries listed they don't report individual cases, nor is there a central list of overstayers. each country deals with the matter on a 'lucky we caught you' basis or when you try to leave.

There are no borders between the mainland EU countries. So how will anyone know you have moved?

I could just "borrow" a car in France, spend 90 plus days doing my work on internet using a phone contract with unlimited data. Then drive (or train is I wanted) backwards and forwards through multiple countries all without any government detection.

My Nephew works as a tech for one of the large online companies and he has been looking at working remotely in Asia from Hotels and rented accommodation. He reckons at least 30% of his work mates already do it (he is 25 by the way)


----------



## suiko

Lynn R said:


> Saw this mentioned elsewhere, seems helpful and indicates that UK citizens will not be asked to prove income and healthcare all over again to obtain a TIE (and it's an official Spanish Government website).
> 
> Brexit. What if there is a deal?. Ministry of Labour, Migrations & Social Security



As I understand it, this seems to suggest that one should register before the withdrawal date (i.e. 31 January) rather than before the end of the transitional period (31 December)? How do others interpret it?


----------



## kaipa

I dont think you need worry. The spanish official release this week indicates that anyone registered as resident before the end of the transition period will have right to remain and I would imagine that that would mean your right to work will be protected.


----------



## kaipa

Obviously you will need to register after 90 days, so will need a contract, address and padrón. From what is said on the official website you would then be issued with the TIE. Persons registered before 31st of this month appear to be under no immediate need to update their documents.


----------



## paulhe

All very interesting re nomads Williams 2 and others however I did not introduce nomads you did all I was pointing out in my post was that currently home owners in Spain who want to visit whenever but do not want to live innSpain, maybe they want the flexibility of staying 180 days in a block ( as do I ) can do so . Post Brexit they will not be allowed to and as the 180 days is rolling then unless they wish to do as some have suggested move to a non Schegen state for example they will be restricted to 90 days . I was urging a lobby for bilateral visa waiver as Australia has with Spain, itching more 
Paul


----------



## paulhe

‘Nothing more ‘ (iPhones!!)


----------



## cisco kid

*Residency*

Hi High flyer, Juan C and tebo53
Thanks very much for your replies, you've been really helpful.
Steve.


----------



## cisco kid

Hi Steve
As I understand it, to hold a UK bank account I would need a UK address. When we move to Spain this year we will have no ties whatsoever in the UK including no address. There is only the two of us. As far as you are aware is there any UK bank who would allow us to have an account with a Spanish address? Your situation would be ideal for us.
Thanks Steve.


----------



## Overandout

Lynn R said:


> Saw this mentioned elsewhere, seems helpful and indicates that UK citizens will not be asked to prove income and healthcare all over again to obtain a TIE (and it's an official Spanish Government website).
> 
> Brexit. What if there is a deal?. Ministry of Labour, Migrations & Social Security


That's quite interesting!

The new TIE was previously (on the Moncloa website) stated to be obligatory as the green certs would cease to be valid for British citizens in Spain, but now it seems that as long as the green cert states that you have been resident since before 31st December 2020, it will be all you need to carry on living here as before. The TIE now passes to be an "optional nice to have".

I checked the Moncloa website, and that has been updated too and is in line with this ministry page.

I reckon they have realised that there is no way that they will be able to process the requests and issue the TIEs required by the end of the year, so they are just being more realistic.

The question I have is, if I lose my green cert, or if I move house, will they issue me with another new green cert, or will I have to pass to the TIE?

I was looking forward to having an ID card issued by Spain, so will try to get a TIE if possible.


----------



## kaipa

Yes I also checked the Moncloa site after Lynn posted the above link and it's TRUE it has been updated : so officially we dont need to do anything if we have already registered. Hooray. Anyone applying during transition will be issued with the updated with TIE, otherwise it will not be obligatory until you presumably renew ( if you change address/ lose documents)


----------



## Lynn R

cisco kid said:


> Hi Steve
> As I understand it, to hold a UK bank account I would need a UK address. When we move to Spain this year we will have no ties whatsoever in the UK including no address. There is only the two of us. As far as you are aware is there any UK bank who would allow us to have an account with a Spanish address? Your situation would be ideal for us.
> Thanks Steve.


If you are not a UK resident it is quite difficult to open a new bank account in the UK (although all banks are supposed to offer a basic account which non residents are eligible for). However, if you have an existing account and move abroad most banks are happy for you to keep the account open. Mine (First Direct) has no problem with it and sends statements to my Spanish address, as does Nationwide for my husband. I know many other forum members have also retained their UK accounts with other banks.


----------



## tebo53

cisco kid said:


> Hi Steve
> As I understand it, to hold a UK bank account I would need a UK address. When we move to Spain this year we will have no ties whatsoever in the UK including no address. There is only the two of us. As far as you are aware is there any UK bank who would allow us to have an account with a Spanish address? Your situation would be ideal for us.
> Thanks Steve.


Hi,

Our main Bank account is with Barclays and we have registered our UK address the same as our son as we stay with him on visits. 

If you already have a UK bank account up and running I think you can change to a Spanish address. I opted for any communication with my bank to be done through emails and not post so not to involve addresses. My private pension companies won't pay into a foreign bank account so that is my important reason to keep a UK bank account. 

I don't think you can set up a new UK bank account while living in Spain with a Spanish address.

There are other types of banking and accounts that you can open but I'm not really qualified to suggest any, other posters will make better suggestions than I.

I use Transferwise money transfer service to move money from Barclays bank to Sabadell bank here in Benidorm. I've used them for years with no problems.

Steve


----------



## suiko

For bank account, surely Revolut will do the job? I don't think I had to provide any details of my address. I imagine it's domiciled in the UK as it was opened in pounds (though obviously it has an attacked euro account too).


----------



## xabiaxica

Lynn R said:


> If you are not a UK resident it is quite difficult to open a new bank account in the UK (although *all banks are supposed to offer a basic account which non residents are eligible for*). However, if you have an existing account and move abroad most banks are happy for you to keep the account open. Mine (First Direct) has no problem with it and sends statements to my Spanish address, as does Nationwide for my husband. I know many other forum members have also retained their UK accounts with other banks.


However, isn't that an EU directive?

Something else which might go.


----------



## Williams2

Overandout said:


> That's quite interesting!
> 
> *The new TIE was previously (on the Moncloa website) stated to be obligatory as the green certs would cease to be valid for British citizens in Spain, but now it seems that as long as the green cert states that you have been resident since before 31st December 2020, it will be all you need to carry on living here as before. The TIE now passes to be an "optional nice to have".*
> 
> I checked the Moncloa website, and that has been updated too and is in line with this ministry page.
> 
> I reckon they have realised that there is no way that they will be able to process the requests and issue the TIEs required by the end of the year, so they are just being more realistic.
> 
> The question I have is, if I lose my green cert, or if I move house, will they issue me with another new green cert, or will I have to pass to the TIE?
> 
> I was looking forward to having an ID card issued by Spain, so will try to get a TIE if possible.


There is only one fly in the ointment on some British Expats / Immigrants ability to hang onto their
Green card certs and that is what happens if they move house ? ( change permanent address in Spain )
after the UK leaves the EU ( after the 31st Jan 2020 or after the transition period ends on 31/12/20 )
for as we all know the Green Card is supposed to have your current permanent address on it - but for 
those that are obliged to move during this period - what card will they get with their new address ?


----------



## Overandout

Williams2 said:


> There is only one fly in the ointment on some British Expats / Immigrants ability to hang onto their
> Green card certs and that is what happens if they move house ? ( change permanent address in Spain )
> after the UK leaves the EU ( after the 31st Jan 2020 or after the transition period ends on 31/12/20 )
> for as we all know the Green Card is supposed to have your current permanent address on it - but for
> those that are obliged to move during this period - what card will they get with their new address ?


That's exactly the same consideration as I posted only a few lines down from the part of my post that you have highlighted....

I guess that the green certs will be gradually phased out with each necessary procedure until they are all replaced with TIEs, or until the holders either leave Spain or leave this mortal world....


----------



## paulhe

xabiaxica said:


> However, isn't that an EU directive?
> 
> Something else which might go.


Maybe not , I keep my Nat West account with an address here in Perth i just have to complete the (recently required) tax declaration (confirming my tax residency)
paul


----------



## Joppa

On the green resident certificate and TIE issue, when you apply for TIE after moving to Spain during the implementation period and also when you exchange your green certificate after a change, such as your address, the host country can conduct criminal record check and has the right to turn down applicants deemed to be a risk. While this I hope won't apply to most people, the time needed to conduct background checks may add to the processing time.


----------



## xabiaxica

Joppa said:


> On the green resident certificate and TIE issue, when you apply for TIE after moving to Spain during the implementation period and also when you exchange your green certificate after a change, such as your address, the host country can conduct criminal record check and has the right to turn down applicants deemed to be a risk. While this I hope won't apply to most people, the time needed to conduct background checks may add to the processing time.


Do keep up!

That might apply in other EU countries, but...

As posted earlier on the thread, the Spanish govt has already stated that as long as British residents are registered as EU residents before the end of the transition period, we will automatically be issued a TIE on request, and that those registering DURING the transition period will be issued a TIE, although they will still have to fulfill only the requirements for an EU citizen.


----------



## xabiaxica

*Driving licences*

Maybe I missed this, but a gestor posted on a local FB group that the last date of application to change your UK issued licence is the 29th January 2020. 

That's next Wednesday. 

You have to have your application in by then.

A bit of digging & the actual date is 31st January 2020 - so next Friday. 

https://sede.dgt.gob.es/es/permisos-de-conducir/canje-permisos/canje-permisos-extranjeros/canje-renovacion-sustitucion-uk/canje-permisos-uk/index.shtml#

It seems that it will be OK for residents to drive on the UK issued licence until the end of the transition period, but if the application for a new Spanish one isn't in by next Friday, you won't be able to benefit from the automatic swap/renewal.


----------



## kaipa

The other problem is that there are no citas for traffico at the moment and it took me 4 months to get mine and that was a year ago!!


----------



## Brexugee

xabiaxica said:


> Maybe I missed this, but a gestor posted on a local FB group that the last date of application to change your UK issued licence is the 29th January 2020.
> 
> That's next Wednesday.
> 
> You have to have your application in by then.
> 
> A bit of digging & the actual date is 31st January 2020 - so next Friday.
> 
> https://sede.dgt.gob.es/es/permisos-de-conducir/canje-permisos/canje-permisos-extranjeros/canje-renovacion-sustitucion-uk/canje-permisos-uk/index.shtml#
> 
> It seems that it will be OK for residents to drive on the UK issued licence until the end of the transition period, but if the application for a new Spanish one isn't in by next Friday, you won't be able to benefit from the automatic swap/renewal.


That's unfortunate. So much for "nothing will change during the transition period."


----------



## xabiaxica

Brexugee said:


> That's unfortunate. So much for "nothing will change during the transition period."


I was talking to a friend about this, & apparently when you go to make an appointment online, there's a 'UK' button, & if there are no appointments available, you can register your intent to change your licence.


Not having a licence of any kind, I haven't tried this, so if anyone does, can they let us know how it works? 

Do they email you when appointments are again available?


----------



## Joppa

xabiaxica said:


> Do keep up!
> 
> That might apply in other EU countries, but...
> 
> As posted earlier on the thread, the Spanish govt has already stated that as long as British residents are registered as EU residents before the end of the transition period, we will automatically be issued a TIE on request, and that those registering DURING the transition period will be issued a TIE, although they will still have to fulfill only the requirements for an EU citizen.


In UK, EU nationals applying for settled status are subject to criminal record checks and so far, five people have had their application turned down over criminal history. I don't know the nationality of rejected applicants, but since Spain has repeated talked about reciprocity, and if Spaniards are subject to criminal record check in UK, I can't see the Madrid government exempting UK citizens.


----------



## kaipa

If you read the Moncloa site you will see the that those with existing registration documents will not be subject to new checks. Criminal history checks are not done on EU members under the spanish system for residency. It might happen after Brexit for 3rd country applications but as the WA has now passed the spanish government have stated what requirements and procedures are necessary forthose applying before the end of ths transition period . Reciprocity doesnt mean the same systems or else the UK would been demanding all uk nationals in spain get free healthcare or spain demanding all spanish nationals are given green cards in uk


----------



## Joppa

I can see what you are saying but it does seem odd that if UK is conducting criminal record check for all applicants, including Spanish, and some are being turned down, which may include Spaniards or may do so in the future, UK applicants in Spain aren't subject to similar checks and those with serious criminal history are allowed to register or be given TIE.


----------



## kaipa

Well I think that is because EU countries treat EU citizens equally. A spanish national doesnt need to submit criminal history for official identification purposes so you canf discriminate against an Italian or German. 3rd country nationals dont have same rights


----------



## xabiaxica

Joppa said:


> I can see what you are saying but it does seem odd that if UK is conducting criminal record check for all applicants, including Spanish, and some are being turned down, which may include Spaniards or may do so in the future, UK applicants in Spain aren't subject to similar checks and those with serious criminal history are allowed to register or be given TIE.


Spain is clearly caring more about those of us who have fallen foul of a decision that affects us, that many of us were given no opportunity to have a say about, than is the UK.

There has always been a requirement to register here, so most are already registered. Spain has chosen to permit us to keep the rights we already have.


FUTURE UK applicants, after the transition period will be subject to those checks. 

Those registered as EU citizens before the end of the transition period won't be.


----------



## xabiaxica

Joppa said:


> I can see what you are saying but it does seem odd that if UK is conducting criminal record check for all applicants, including Spanish, and some are being turned down, which may include Spaniards or may do so in the future, UK applicants in Spain aren't subject to similar checks and those with serious criminal history are allowed to register or be given TIE.


Under EU directives, the UK cannot refuse an EU citizen, as long as they fulfill those checks required by the EU - simply that they are financially able to support themselves. That doesn't include criminal record checks.

So if the UK is already refusing Spanish or other EU citizens, it is breaking EU rules. 

Until the end of this month, the UK must follow them.


----------



## suiko

Can I just check what I need to do to get empadronado before end of 2020?

1. Open Spanish bank account 3 months before step 2, and deposit €25,000
2. Get rental contract (for address) and private health insurance contract and go to Oficina de Extranjería (after previously making appointment online) (NB I have NIE already)
3. Go to local ayuntamiento to register on padrón

Is anything else required?

Presumably after this it doesn't make much difference whether I'm actually there or working in the UK?


----------



## kaipa

It makes a big difference!!!!. Signing on the padron means you live in that area. You cant just register as living in spain then go back to uk. I know lots of Brits seem to think that if they register in spain then it gives them the right to come and go when they please but it's illegal.


----------



## kaipa

I should just add that you appear to think the padron is the registration for residency, seeing as you are talking of bank accounts, health insurance. It's not. The padron just registers you and your address it confers no rights. You need to register for residency with the local police who assess your request


----------



## snikpoh

suiko said:


> Can I just check what I need to do to get empadronado before end of 2020?
> 
> 1. Open Spanish bank account 3 months before step 2, and deposit €25,000
> 2. Get rental contract (for address) and private health insurance contract and go to Oficina de Extranjería (after previously making appointment online) (NB I have NIE already)
> 3. Go to local ayuntamiento to register on padrón
> 
> Is anything else required?
> 
> Presumably after this it doesn't make much difference whether I'm actually there or working in the UK?


Signing on the padron doesn't require any of that. For the padron, you just need proof of address in that town. However, in some towns, you need to be registered as resident first ('residencia')


----------



## Megsmum

suiko said:


> Can I just check what I need to do to get empadronado before end of 2020?
> 
> 1. Open Spanish bank account 3 months before step 2, and deposit €25,000
> 2. Get rental contract (for address) and private health insurance contract and go to Oficina de Extranjería (after previously making appointment online) (NB I have NIE already)
> 3. Go to local ayuntamiento to register on padrón
> 
> Is anything else required?
> 
> Presumably after this it doesn't make much difference whether I'm actually there or working in the UK?


Of course it makes a difference 

If you are not here you are not on the padrón and you don’t need to register as a resident 

I’m unsure what you are trying to do or where you actually live?


----------



## xabiaxica

suiko said:


> Can I just check what I need to do to get empadronado before end of 2020?
> 
> 1. Open Spanish bank account 3 months before step 2, and deposit €25,000
> 2. Get rental contract (for address) and private health insurance contract and go to Oficina de Extranjería (after previously making appointment online) (NB I have NIE already)
> 3. Go to local ayuntamiento to register on padrón
> 
> Is anything else required?
> 
> Presumably after this it doesn't make much difference whether I'm actually there or working in the UK?


The requirement is that you LIVE here... in other words you're here more time than you are in the UK (in your case).

I doesn't matter if you have to return to the UK to work. I know several people who live here, but return to the UK for blocks of work - one is a paramedic - but still spend more time actually in Spain than in the UK.


----------



## Barriej

xabiaxica said:


> Maybe I missed this, but a gestor posted on a local FB group that the last date of application to change your UK issued licence is the 29th January 2020.
> 
> That's next Wednesday.
> 
> You have to have your application in by then.
> 
> A bit of digging & the actual date is 31st January 2020 - so next Friday.
> 
> https://sede.dgt.gob.es/es/permisos-de-conducir/canje-permisos/canje-permisos-extranjeros/canje-renovacion-sustitucion-uk/canje-permisos-uk/index.shtml#
> 
> It seems that it will be OK for residents to drive on the UK issued licence until the end of the transition period, but if the application for a new Spanish one isn't in by next Friday, you won't be able to benefit from the automatic swap/renewal.


Im confused now. As I've checked both the link and the Uk Gov site and they are different. The Uk site still says that you will have 9 months after Brexit date to exchange. Im going to hope thats true but otherwise I will be taking a test sometime later this year.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/driving-in-the-eu-after-brexit-driving-licence-exchange


----------



## kaipa

Note that you need to be registered as resident before you make application


----------



## Williams2

Barriej said:


> Im confused now. As I've checked both the link and the Uk Gov site and they are different. The Uk site still says that you will have 9 months after Brexit date to exchange. Im going to hope thats true but otherwise I will be taking a test sometime later this year.
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/driving-in-the-eu-after-brexit-driving-licence-exchange


I see DVLA rules concerning EU member state driving licenses used by EU citizens
living in the UK remain unchanged after Brexit !!

It seems strange that the DVLA say that EU citizens living in the UK and driving on
their EU member state Driving license, can continue to do so for upto 3 years after
they become resident in the UK ( or until expiry date or they reach the age of
70 whichever comes first ) and still be able to exchange it for a UK driving license.
No mention of it no longer being recognised as a valid license for exchange and
having to pass a British driving test, like they are do in Spain after Brexit.

Also no mention whatsover of the EU citizen or visitor needing an IDP valid for the
UK after Brexit although no doubt this ties in with the UK regarding all EU member
state issued driving licenses as still valid ( without a UK test ) and therefore still eligible
for exchange after Brexit.


----------



## MataMata

The poblem with driving licence exchange is that Spain has signed but not ratified the 1968 Vienna convention which means they do not independently recognise UK licences as being exchangeable.

EU membership and the directives on driving licences overrode the convention which is why hitherto UK licences have been eligible for exchange - and vice versa - but once the UK has left it falls back to the convention. 

Spain could very easily ratify it which would make the issue disappear at a stroke and indeed UK were in the same position of having signed but not ratified however they foresaw the problem arising so ratified it in Nov. 2018 which enabled exchanges with other parties to the convention which I believe includes most if not all of the other EU member states and many countries further abroad. 

Although technically UK could if they wished adopt the same stance as Spain they have the latitude to choose not to and AFAIK are going down that route so really they should be lobbying Spain to follow suit, they are after all the ones making the biggest noises about reciprocity. 

If not addressed we stand to end up with the ludicrous situation where licences from some tin pot countries in Africa, the Far East, and Russia are exchangeable but from UK not!

EDIT - checked on a Spanish in UK forum and it appears that they are also being advised to exchange for a UK licences. If so I suspect the problem is likely be thrashed out during the transition period.


----------



## Juan C

Mata. I agree although I have little sympathy for uk nationals who have made spain their home but did not exchange their uk licence

I know quite a few like that who have even renewed their uk DL whilst resident in Spain, albeit not permitted by uk law.

However, I would be very surprised if spain does not change their rules soon to accommodate U.K. licence holders.


----------



## suiko

suiko said:


> Can I just check what I need to do to get empadronado before end of 2020?
> 
> 1. Open Spanish bank account 3 months before step 2, and deposit €25,000
> 2. Get rental contract (for address) and private health insurance contract and go to Oficina de Extranjería (after previously making appointment online) (NB I have NIE already)
> 3. Go to local ayuntamiento to register on padrón
> 
> Is anything else required?
> 
> Presumably after this it doesn't make much difference whether I'm actually there or working in the UK?


Thanks for responses.

Obviously I know it's technically illegal and I'm considering it in full knowledge of that risk. One more illegal thing I've done to add to the list, I guess  Surely while free movement continues (i.e. this year) there would be no easy way to trace where I actually am, once the above steps have been taken? 

The issue is that Brexit has already considerably reduced my future income and I am expecting to be made redundant in the UK, most likely in 2021. And I don't want to lose the right to live in Spain, which is where I've lived before and always wanted to return to.

Is the procedure correct? And the padrón step still necessary, after going through the residency procedure at Extranjería?


----------



## xabiaxica

Barriej said:


> Im confused now. As I've checked both the link and the Uk Gov site and they are different. The Uk site still says that you will have 9 months after Brexit date to exchange. Im going to hope thats true but otherwise I will be taking a test sometime later this year.
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/driving-in-the-eu-after-brexit-driving-licence-exchange


You need to have made an appointment, or have registered your intention (via the DGT / tráfico online appt system I believe) by next Friday. 

You then have until the end of the trasition period to actually do it.


----------



## Barriej

suiko said:


> Thanks for responses.
> 
> Obviously I know it's technically illegal and I'm considering it in full knowledge of that risk. One more illegal thing I've done to add to the list, I guess  Surely while free movement continues (i.e. this year) there would be no easy way to trace where I actually am, once the above steps have been taken?
> 
> The issue is that Brexit has already considerably reduced my future income and I am expecting to be made redundant in the UK, most likely in 2021. And I don't want to lose the right to live in Spain, which is where I've lived before and always wanted to return to.
> 
> Is the procedure correct? And the padrón step still necessary, after going through the residency procedure at Extranjería?


As of the 1st Feb Spain may be stamping your British passport on the way in, so they will have a record of when you arrived. Although I'm not sure which queue you will have to join at the border.

As to the padron. My solicitor has said that you need a padron cert to get residence, but its a temporary one. You use it for the residence (it must be less than 3 months old) and once you have your TIE you go back to the council and they then make it a permanent one. 
The padron gives each council money depending on how many people live in the area. So its worth doing.

It will also be needed after 5 years when you get the residence updated. 
Or thats what I have been led to believe.

I will post all of our experiences as they happen from early July.


----------



## tebo53

I expect that the electronic scans of passports will make the "stamping of" redundant and that could flag up to various agencies as to where you are and for how long. Big brother will certainly be keeping his eye on you!!!

Steve


----------



## kaipa

I don't think there is any such thing as a permanent padron. You usually have to go back each time you are required to provide it so that it is never more than 3 months old


----------



## Barriej

tebo53 said:


> I expect that the electronic scans of passports will make the "stamping of" redundant and that could flag up to various agencies as to where you are and for how long. Big brother will certainly be keeping his eye on you!!!
> 
> Steve


Would agree but with the Uk becoming a 3rd country we wont be able to use the automated machines as they are only for use by Eu citizens. So it will be off to the desk for us.

Which I prefer to be honest as its usually much faster as the machines are not very good.


----------



## suiko

Anyway, still not sure whether I shall move permanently or do as above.

In any case, given that I already have an NIE, could someone outline what I have to do? I'm thinking bank account, rental contract and go to Extranjería? Then do padrón (if necessary for residency rights)?


----------



## Juan C

Suiko, as has been said so many times here, having an NIE, a fiscal ID number, confers no rights of residency.


----------



## Isobella

tebo53 said:


> I expect that the electronic scans of passports will make the "stamping of" redundant and that could flag up to various agencies as to where you are and for how long. Big brother will certainly be keeping his eye on you!!!
> 
> Steve


USA still stamps passports even though everything has been recorded electronically. A lot of other countries too.


----------



## suiko

Juan C said:


> Suiko, as has been said so many times here, having an NIE, a fiscal ID number, confers no rights of residency.


Yes, of course I'm aware of that, Juan. Could you confirm that the procedure I described is indeed the correct one? Or am I missing something?


----------



## Juan C

Suiko Quote. “I'm thinking bank account, rental contract and go to Extranjería? Then do padrón”

None of that specifically is required 

Unless Brexit changed the existing requirements. 

If one is an EU National, they must move to spain, then prove sufficient income and full medical cover, or take a job which covers those requirements.


----------



## suiko

Juan C said:


> Suiko Quote. “I'm thinking bank account, rental contract and go to Extranjería? Then do padrón”
> 
> None of that specifically is required
> 
> Unless Brexit changed the existing requirements.
> 
> If one is an EU National, they must move to spain, then prove sufficient income and full medical cover, or take a job which covers those requirements.


Thanks. So yes, as I said, go to Extranjería with address, bank account and health insurance. Anything else?


----------



## Juan C

Suiko if you search the forum you will find multiple posts for your specific situation, which answer that question 


But as I said, that is unless Brexit day changes the existing requirements


----------



## kaipa

To be honest Suiko, I would get a spanish assessor local to where you choose to live and get them to organise everything. The funcinarios will not use English . The asseror usually has a bit of " connection " and will basically tell youexactly what will be needed by the officer. It will cost about 60 Euros and last about 5 mins.


----------



## Juan C

Kaipa. Good advice but the vast majority, most of whom do not speak Spanish, make the application without paid assistance. 

Of course if expense does not matter, and one is able find a professional who really knows what is required (there many who do not) then that maybe easier


----------



## suiko

Thanks again.

Good advice ré the gestor, but I speak fluent Spanish (near native standard), so no issues there. 

Just wondering if I missed something - maybe you could point me to one of those threads, Juan, as I'm clearly rubbish at finding it


----------



## Barriej

If you would like a nice bit of bedtime reading. Ive been scanning through this today, while waiting for my latest creations to tumble polish.

Its the Royal decree dated March 2019.
It appears that there have been no updates to this and so far the only bit that is of interest to me is in chapter 4. About driving licences.
If this information has been available since early 2019 Im wondering why the Uk.Gov site states something different. Im going to ask my MP later in the week to look into this for me (about time he did something for his constituents)

Wording is below. Taken directly from
https://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/en/brexit/howtoprepare/Documents/Royal Decree-Law 5-2019.pdf


Moving on to Part 4, the objective of Article 22 is to find a suitable solution for those citizens residing in Spain who hold a British driving licence that is
currently valid to drive in our country as a licence issued by a country that is an EU Member State, but which will cease to be valid upon the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the European Union.
For this reason, a transitional nine-month period has been established, during which holders of a driving licence issued by British authorities who have acquired residence in Spain shall be able to exchange this driving licence for a Spanish licence, pursuant to prevailing traffic legislation, which shall enable them to continue driving in our country despite the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the European Union.
The above notwithstanding, during this nine-month transitional period, this exchange shall be possible provided that the current verification system for driving licences established in the framework of the European Union is maintained. Were this system not to be maintained, it would not be possible to exchange driving licences issued by the United Kingdom.
After this nine-month period has elapsed, driving licences issued by British authorities shall be subject to Spanish law regarding driving licences issued by third countries, and it shall no longer be possible to exchange them for Spanish licences, until a bilateral agreement for the exchange of driving licences is formalized with the United Kingdom.

Ive underlined the last bit. So why could Spain (and other EU countries I assume) have left everything the same until the 31st Dec at the end of the transition period. When I suppose any agreements will have been made?

I know Im banging on about this, but so far its the only fly in my soup with regards to our move in July.


----------



## kaipa

Slightly off topic but it is funny that today the government has announced special immigration rules to allow persons with scientific qualifications easier access to uk residency. What is funny is that for many who voted for Brexit immigration was an issue associated with lowering of wages and job opportunities. However, as the uk government wishes to expand sectors like biotech and AI the irony is that the increasing growth in these areas are a far greater threat to jobs than immigration. Already in my sector exam markers are no longer required in what was before considered impossible activities, assessing creative ability. Now all students writings are marked by computers in minutes and students get results on same day. Now that is both impressive and worrying!!


----------



## Joppa

Tigerlillie said:


> I'm with you on this and cannot understand why some Brits think they are special and different rules will apply to or for them.
> 
> Once the UK has left The Union and the transition period is over UK nationals will become third country nationals and the rules for them will be the same as every other third country national.


Yes, and no. Yes for those who move to EU after the implementation period. No for those who move now and get residency, then they will become beneficiary of the Withdrawal Agreement with guaranteed right of residence, employment, education and healthcare, by meeting certain conditions. And their rights are safeguarded for life, so any children they may have in the future will also benefit from them.


----------



## kaipa

I assume Tigerlillie means uk nationals who arrive after transition will be treated as 3rd country nationals not UK nationals who are pre- brexit registered


----------



## Tigerlillie

Joppa said:


> Yes, and no.* Yes for those who move to EU after the implementation period.* No for those who move now and get residency, then they will become beneficiary of the Withdrawal Agreement with guaranteed right of residence, employment, education and healthcare, by meeting certain conditions. And their rights are safeguarded for life, so any children they may have in the future will also benefit from them.


And that's what I said.



Tigerlillie said:


> I'm with you on this and cannot understand why some Brits think they are special and different rules will apply to or for them.
> 
> *Once the UK has left The Union and the transition period is over* UK nationals will become third country nationals and the rules for them will be the same as every other third country national.


/SNIP/


----------



## xabiaxica

Joppa said:


> Yes, and no. Yes for those who move to EU after the implementation period. No for those who move now and get residency, then they will become beneficiary of the Withdrawal Agreement with guaranteed right of residence, employment, education and healthcare, by meeting certain conditions. *And their rights are safeguarded for life, so any children they may have in the future will also benefit from them*.


Are you sure about this? 

It isn't an automatic right to be able to bring your children into Spain if you are resident, & they don't automatically have the same rights as you do. 

If they are born in Spain, yes, almost certainly, but not if they are born elsewhere.


----------



## kaipa

Not sure your rights are safeguarded for life. We probably though are European rights were forever 4 years ago. Now look. Laws can be changed !!!


----------



## Pipeman

This is worth a read for those planning on moving to Spain this year (and existing expats)

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...tish-expats-EU.html?ito=amp_twitter_share-top


----------



## Juan C

This is the Spanish law on nationality 

http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Portal...cionParaExtranjeros/Paginas/Nacionalidad.aspx


----------



## Joppa

xabiaxica said:


> Are you sure about this?
> 
> It isn't an automatic right to be able to bring your children into Spain if you are resident, & they don't automatically have the same rights as you do.
> 
> If they are born in Spain, yes, almost certainly, but not if they are born elsewhere.


I am not sure about the details, but if the WA only extends to future children born in Spain, it certain makes sense to ensure that the birth takes place in Spain and not elsewhere.


----------



## Overandout

My understanding is that the existing rights of UK nationals residing in Spain are protected "for life", as long as the resident stays as such in Spain.

We will not, for example, be able to go and live somewhere else for a few years as I did, then come back to Spain claiming that your rights were protected "for life".


----------



## suiko

Yes indeed. One of the many ironies of Brexit. It will be fertile ground for all manner of satirists for generations!


----------



## Joppa

Overandout said:


> My understanding is that the existing rights of UK nationals residing in Spain are protected "for life", as long as the resident stays as such in Spain.
> 
> We will not, for example, be able to go and live somewhere else for a few years as I did, then come back to Spain claiming that your rights were protected "for life".


As I understand it, once you get permanent residency, you can stay away from Spain (in this case) for up to a year (or was it two years?) before your permanent residency is withdrawn. /SNIP/


----------



## Ilovepatnevin

I’m not sure if this is slightly, or completely, off-topic but has there been any information offered about how *future* British pensioners, already living and working in Spain, will be treated post-Brexit?
What I’m referring to is the current arrangement whereby EU countries, in which you have worked, will contribute to the state pension you receive in the country where you finally retire. 
Has anything been said about whether this will continue or is it another thing about which we will just have to wait and see?


----------



## suiko

*health insurance - cheapest option?*

In order to apply for residency at Extranjería I'll be needing health insurance.

I'm 55 and don't have any health issues. Any recommendations for the cheapest option? Is it possible to pay into the Spanish public system?


----------



## baldilocks

Ilovepatnevin said:


> I’m not sure if this is slightly, or completely, off-topic but has there been any information offered about how *future* British pensioners, already living and working in Spain, will be treated post-Brexit?
> What I’m referring to is the current arrangement whereby EU countries, in which you have worked, will contribute to the state pension you receive in the country where you finally retire.
> Has anything been said about whether this will continue or is it another thing about which we will just have to wait and see?


AFAIK nothing yet. This applies to SWMBO who is only 60 but is accumulating added years in UK plus working in Spain.


----------



## paulhe

baldilocks said:


> AFAIK nothing yet. This applies to SWMBO who is only 60 but is accumulating added years in UK plus working in Spain.


Currently if one lives overseas (from UK) has lived and paid NI stamps in UK for at least three years can pay class 2 stamp - about 148 pounds per annum . The UK has talked about scrapping class 2 and then the much more expensive class 3 stamp will apply but the change hasn't happened yet. Me and the wife have paid class 2 stamps for the 20 years we have lived in Aus 
paul


----------



## Lynn R

suiko said:


> In order to apply for residency at Extranjería I'll be needing health insurance.
> 
> I'm 55 and don't have any health issues. Any recommendations for the cheapest option? Is it possible to pay into the Spanish public system?


In order to be eligible to pay into the Spanish public system via the Convenio Especial you need to have been legally resident in Spain (ie registered) for a minimum of one year therefore you need private health insurance for at least the first year.

Whereabouts in Spain are you going to be living? I ask because you may find a smaller more local provider will be cheaper than one of the large household name insurance companies. My husband and I have had health insurance for the past 11 years with one such company (Prevision Medica) but they only cover Málaga province and part of Córdoba province in Andalucia. Our premiums are now €150 per month for the two of us and my husband turned 70 a few months ago - this company, unlike most of them, does not increase premiums when an existing policyholder turns 65.


----------



## suiko

Thanks, Lynn! I didn't know about the one year thing.

Not 100% sure yet, but very likely it will be Málaga, yes.


----------



## Lynn R

suiko said:


> Thanks, Lynn! I didn't know about the one year thing.
> 
> Not 100% sure yet, but very likely it will be Málaga, yes.


In that case, you could get an online quote from Prevision Medica here
https://www.previsionmedica.com/ - as well as ones from other companies to compare, of course. The one thing I would say is that their cuadro medico (the list of doctors and hospitals you can use) is less extensive than the larger insurance companies (although all the specialisms are covered), but in my experience their premiums are considerably cheaper. Where I live, there is only one main provider whose clinic provides a range of services anyway (unless I wanted to travel into Málaga for everything, which I don't).


----------



## 95995

paulhe said:


> Currently if one lives overseas (from UK) has lived and paid NI stamps in UK for at least three years can pay class 2 stamp - about 148 pounds per annum . The UK has talked about scrapping class 2 and then the much more expensive class 3 stamp will apply but the change hasn't happened yet. Me and the wife have paid class 2 stamps for the 20 years we have lived in Aus
> paul


Where are you living now? The UK has an entirely different approach with Australia, so if you are still in Perth Australia the situation is not the same as for those currently living eg. in the EU, and at this point in time  it is likely that the treatment will not be the same in the EU as it is in Australia, at least not in the near future. (There is a whole specific issue in relation to the UK-Australia situation - unfortunately - though primarily provoked by the UK.)


----------



## suiko

I don't really mind about anything like that, as I am very unlikely to be using the service at all - just need it for the residency!


----------



## 95995

suiko said:


> I don't really mind about anything like that, as I am very unlikely to be using the service at all - just need it for the residency!


It is *not *a good idea to try to fly below the radar, especially post the transition period.


----------



## Glynb

*January 31st Driving Licence Exchange cut off date?*

Has anyone recently exchanged their UK driving licence for Spanish?

I found a link to the process and started to book an appointment, but fell at the last hurdle as it seems you need an online 'digital certificate' to do it? 

Is it true that you need to application in by end of January or face having to take a Spanish Driving test!!

Just got my Residencia granted today, but now the panic is on to exchange the driving licence before the Brexit deadline.


----------



## suiko

Kind of all up in the air in the moment - just fact finding for now....


----------



## Exeter

Glynb said:


> Has anyone recently exchanged their UK driving licence for Spanish?
> 
> I found a link to the process and started to book an appointment, but fell at the last hurdle as it seems you need an online 'digital certificate' to do it?
> 
> Is it true that you need to application in by end of January or face having to take a Spanish Driving test!!
> 
> Just got my Residencia granted today, but now the panic is on to exchange the driving licence before the Brexit deadline.


Yes apparently the cut off to register your intent to swap your U.K Licence for a Spanish one is 31st Jan. You can ring 060 and start the process, or as I did took everything (licence, pic, medical, residencia, passport) to a gestor and paid a fee for them to do the entire thing for me.


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## davexf

Exeter said:


> Yes apparently the cut off to register your intent to swap your U.K Licence for a Spanish one is 31st Jan. You can ring 060 and start the process, or as I did took everything (licence, pic, medical, residencia, passport) to a gestor and paid a fee for them to do the entire thing for me.


Hola 

You have 9 months AFTER the 31st January to exchange your UK driving licence 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/driving-in-the-eu-after-brexit-driving-licence-exchange 

Spain
You can exchange a valid UK driving licence without taking a test within 9 months of the date that the UK leaves the EU. After this 9 month period you will need to take a test in order to exchange your licence.

Davexf


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## xabiaxica

Joppa said:


> As I understand it, once you get permanent residency, you can stay away from Spain (in this case) for up to a year (or was it two years?) before your permanent residency is withdrawn. /SNIP/


It's two years.

Having a daughter with the travelling & working abroad bug has made us very careful with the rules.


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## snikpoh

Alcalaina said:


> Good idea. In fact, this couid be it - if people can restrain themselves from expressing opinions  and just stick to facts (with links).
> 
> As things stand at the moment (and assuming BJ gets his withdrawal agreement passed), the UK will leave the EU on 31 January and there will be a transition period until 31 December 2020, during which time it will still be possible for new arrivals from the UK to get Spanish residency as if they were EU citizens (evidence of healthcare plus enough money to live on).
> 
> https://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/en/brexit/howtoprepare/Paginas/190108residence.aspx


There seems to be a lot of confusion at the moment regarding driving licences.

On the DGT website, it states that if you haven't started the process by 31st January (or even 24th Jan as I saw somewhere), then it's too late.

However, on lamoncloa it states that one has until 31st December

I wonder which it is?


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## snikpoh

davexf said:


> Hola
> 
> You have 9 months AFTER the 31st January to exchange your UK driving licence
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/driving-in-the-eu-after-brexit-driving-licence-exchange
> 
> Spain
> You can exchange a valid UK driving licence without taking a test within 9 months of the date that the UK leaves the EU. After this 9 month period you will need to take a test in order to exchange your licence.
> 
> Davexf


The DGT site states that unless you've started the process BEFORE 31st Jan (or 24th - they aren't consistent), then it's too late and you will need to take a test.


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## kaipa

Just wondering: Can a spanish national do a UK driving test entirely in Spanish if they dont speak English?


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## Overandout

xabiaxica said:


> It's two years.
> 
> Having a daughter with the travelling & working abroad bug has made us very careful with the rules.


It is currently 2 years with the green cert, but as that is only for Europeans.... 

I think I recall that this was going to be one of the few benefits of Brexit, those UK nationals who benefit from the withdrawal agreement were to have a longer period of non-residency allowed with the TIE (was it 3 years?) before it became void.

The problem is that now, we may not get a TIE, at least not before Dec 31st.. so it's anyone's guess as to what will happen if a UK citizen benefiting from the WA rights leaves Spain during the transitionary period then wants to come back.... 

Easy option I suppose is just don't leave!


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## Overandout

kaipa said:


> Just wondering: Can a spanish national do a UK driving test entirely in Spanish if they dont speak English?


No.

UK tests are available in some alternative languages (Urdu, Hindi, etc.) but no EU languages. I had a friend who was most upset about this when she wanted to take her test in Italian.


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## kaipa

Well I imagine a Spanish person in uk might feel a bit unfairly treated given you can hold an Spanish licence having done the test in English. Let's hope Spain doesnt demand reciprocy


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## Overandout

kaipa said:


> Well I imagine a Spanish person in uk might feel a bit unfairly treated given you can hold an Spanish licence having done the test in English. Let's hope Spain doesnt demand reciprocy


Really? You can sit your test here in English? 

I would be surprised if that's the case all over Spain, but I stand to be corrected.

Sorry to be terribly cliched but I can just imagine the examiner shouting EEEEEEEstop, when performing the emergency braking procedure.


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## kaipa

I think you can do the theory in spanish. If you cant then people really need to take this seriously. This will mean UK nationals are going to need quite a good level of spanish if the y want to drive in Spain


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## kaipa

Sorry...mistake. I think you can do theory in ENGLISH


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## 95995

suiko said:


> Kind of all up in the air in the moment - just fact finding for now....


However I note that in post #133 on the other thread you specifically said (my highlighting):



> Thanks for responses.
> 
> *Obviously I know it's technically illegal and I'm considering it in full knowledge of that risk. One more illegal thing I've done to add to the list, I guess  Surely while free movement continues (i.e. this year) there would be no easy way to trace where I actually am, once the above steps have been taken? *
> 
> The issue is that Brexit has already considerably reduced my future income and I am expecting to be made redundant in the UK, most likely in 2021. And I don't want to lose the right to live in Spain, which is where I've lived before and always wanted to return to.
> 
> Is the procedure correct? And the padrón step still necessary, after going through the residency procedure at Extranjería?


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## xabiaxica

davexf said:


> Hola
> 
> You have 9 months AFTER the 31st January to exchange your UK driving licence
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/driving-in-the-eu-after-brexit-driving-licence-exchange
> 
> Spain
> You can exchange a valid UK driving licence without taking a test within 9 months of the date that the UK leaves the EU. After this 9 month period you will need to take a test in order to exchange your licence.
> 
> Davexf


Yes, that is what the UK govt is saying. 

However, the Spanish govt says that you have to at the very least register your intent to do so by this coming Friday.


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## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> I think you can do the theory in spanish. If you cant then people really need to take this seriously. This will mean UK nationals are going to need quite a good level of spanish if the y want to drive in Spain


Yes, it's the theory that can be taken in English (in Spain). The practical is in Spanish though.


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## 95995

Just to add to my above comment? I doubt you actually understand what the risks are, but you are likely to be deemed tax resident in both the UK, and you could possibly become persona non grata in Spain, i.e. if they catch you out, you might not be able to relocate even under non-EU resident rules.

Si if you really want to live in Spain, you really have 2 options:


Move permanently before the end of the transition period
Move after the end of the transition period with the appropriate visa for a non-EU citizen

Or maybe move to another EU country where visa requirement for non-EU citizens are not as onerous.


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## Glynb

Ok, it seems that you have 9 months to complete the exchange of driving licence provided the application is in by the end of January 2020. The UK Gvt website fails to mention this caveat.

We've spoken to a local gestor today who said he thought the deadline was this Wednesday 29th! He will meet with us tomorrow first thing and said he'd try to get our application in the system.

Brexit really is the gift that keeps on giving.


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## 95995

Brexit is a UK initiative that unfortunately places significant stresses on other EU countries, each of which is coping with it as best it can (for example in France you have to do it online, which actually takes forever but at least your request is in the system). So if you want to blame someone, blame the UK. There is no EU requirement for driving tests to be performed in EU languages BTW. Spain is actually generous in allowing you to do the theory test in English.


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## Love Karma

davexf said:


> Hola
> 
> You have 9 months AFTER the 31st January to exchange your UK driving licence
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/driving-in-the-eu-after-brexit-driving-licence-exchange
> 
> Spain
> You can exchange a valid UK driving licence without taking a test within 9 months of the date that the UK leaves the EU. After this 9 month period you will need to take a test in order to exchange your licence.
> 
> Davexf


Not according to Malaga Trafico

As of this afternoon DGT (Trafico) are still saying you must register your intent to exchange British driving licence* before 31 January *and you then have 9 months from Brexit day to follow up and complete the exchange or face the possibility of having to take a Spanish Driving Test


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## Overandout

I have to say that I find it quite odd that people are looking at UK Gov websites about how Spain is dealing with Brexit issues. The UK cannot possibly incorporate all the peculiarities of all the other EU countries' processes onto its pages.
People in general (not just in Spain) would be much better off referring to the country's specific government websites for reliable information.


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## kaipa

I entirely agree with Overandout. The UK website is slow updating information. Plus the UK government are not the ones who set the rules. If the Spanish government says you need to begin the process by this Friday then that is the rule. I am afraid that anyone applying for residency during the transition period has to seriously consider the implications of this. You will not be legally able to drive if you have residency without a spanish licence. This means you will have to do a spanish test IN SPANISH!!!. And dont think that you just can pretend you are a tourist. If stopped you will be asked for identification which at that stage will mean showing your TIE card. This will indicate you are a resident to the police officer in which case you will be committing a serious crime. The penalties could affect you ability to renew your card further down the line.
In other words , you should think long and hard about buying a house a living in spain if you will need a card. Now the situation may change but given that EU nationals need to have UK licences and if doing a test are required to do it in English dont expect Spanish to bd super- generous. I guess this is one of those details of Brexit that some Brexiteers decided wasnt worth worrying about but bit by bit you can start to see how opportunities to enjoy life are reduced in a pretty depressing way


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## suiko

Thanks a lot.

The risks don't seem that great to me. Maybe that's just me? Though clearly the tax residency thing is indeed likely. Should the worst happen, I guess I'd just have to give up on my lifelong affair with Spain :-( But as we know, there are other fish...

But surely visa requirements for non-EU citizens are the same everywhere, given that the 90 day rule is an EU one, and not specific to Spain? 

I am considering other places too, esp Italy and Portugal. But same thing applies as regards the 90 days, so not sure why Spain's requirements are more onerous?


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## Lynn R

suiko said:


> But surely visa requirements for non-EU citizens are the same everywhere, given that the 90 day rule is an EU one, and not specific to Spain?
> 
> I am considering other places too, esp Italy and Portugal. But same thing applies as regards the 90 days, so not sure why Spain's requirements are more onerous?


Income requirements for non lucrative visas for non EU ciitzens certainly aren't the same everywhere within the EU. They are much lower in France and Portugal than they are in Spain, for example. I don't know why Spain's are more onerous, you would have to ask the Spanish Government that. But it does give the lie (once again) to the much touted idea that Brussels dictates laws to individual member states.


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## 95995

You have been warned, but if you were to proceed to claim residence in Spain this year, you would immediately become tax resident there for the whole of this year (even if you have spent more than 183 days in the UK). If you currently own a property in the UK and were to sell it, you would be liable in Spain for captal gains tax - that is just one example.

Anyway, you have been warned.


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## 95995

Lynn R said:


> Income requirements for non lucrative visas for non EU ciitzens certainly aren't the same everywhere within the EU. They are much lower in France and Portugal than they are in Spain, for example. I don't know why Spain's are more onerous, you would have to ask the Spanish Government that. But it does give the lie (once again) to the much touted idea that Brussels dictates laws to individual member states.


This is, as we know, because visas for non-EU citizens are a sovereign matter, i.e. each EU country is totally free to establish its own requirements. Suiko seems to be confusing travel *within *the Schengen/EU/EEA areas.


----------



## Joppa

Lynn R said:


> Income requirements for non lucrative visas for non EU ciitzens certainly aren't the same everywhere within the EU. They are much lower in France and Portugal than they are in Spain, for example. I don't know why Spain's are more onerous, you would have to ask the Spanish Government that. But it does give the lie (once again) to the much touted idea that Brussels dictates laws to individual member states.


It is the fundamental tenet of EU that any specific rules regarding third country national are decided by individual member states. Hence different requirements for visas and residence between EU states. It's only when member states sign up to EU-wide scheme such as Schengen Agreement that they are subject to commonly-agreed rules and regulations, and Schengen only covers short tourist and business stay (90 in 180 days etc). Also if a Third Country national holds a long-stay visa for one of Schengen countries, they can visit any other Schengen state during the visa's validity, but it's limited to 90 in 180 days and no work is allowed.


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## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> I entirely agree with Overandout. The UK website is slow updating information. Plus the UK government are not the ones who set the rules. If the Spanish government says you need to begin the process by this Friday then that is the rule. I am afraid that anyone applying for residency during the transition period has to seriously consider the implications of this. You will not be legally able to drive if you have residency without a spanish licence. This means you will have to do a spanish test IN SPANISH!!!. And dont think that you just can pretend you are a tourist. If stopped you will be asked for identification which at that stage will mean showing your TIE card. This will indicate you are a resident to the police officer in which case you will be committing a serious crime. The penalties could affect you ability to renew your card further down the line.
> In other words , you should think long and hard about buying a house a living in spain if you will need a card. Now the situation may change but given that EU nationals need to have UK licences and if doing a test are required to do it in English dont expect Spanish to bd super- generous. I guess this is one of those details of Brexit that some Brexiteers decided wasnt worth worrying about but bit by bit you can start to see how opportunities to enjoy life are reduced in a pretty depressing way


We don't yet know of course just how UK licence holders will be treated, beyond the almost certainty of having to take a test just like the vast majority of 3rd country licence holders. 

Usually they can drive for 6 months on their licence before having to take the test. 

After that - no test, or a failed test - it's illegal for them to drive.


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## Megsmum

xabiaxica said:


> We don't yet know of course just how UK licence holders will be treated, beyond the almost certainty of having to take a test just like the vast majority of 3rd country licence holders.
> 
> Usually they can drive for 6 months on their licence before having to take the test.
> 
> After that - no test, or a failed test - it's illegal for them to drive.


I do wonder, reading some posts on here and on social media if some brits abroad really have not grasped the fact that we are leaving, that things will change and are still of the opinion that if you’re British it’s ok to be illegal or to circumvent the rules!


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## baldilocks

Megsmum said:


> I do wonder, reading some posts on here and on social media if some brits abroad really have not grasped the fact that we are leaving, that things will change and *are still of the opinion that if you’re British it’s ok to be illegal or to circumvent the rules!*


Just like they always have done.


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## Overandout

Megsmum said:


> I do wonder, reading some posts on here and on social media if some brits abroad really have not grasped the fact that we are leaving, that things will change and are still of the opinion that if you’re British it’s ok to be illegal or to circumvent the rules!


Or is it just the "when in Rome" syndrome?

We see only the Spanish perspective, a country which (if we are honest) is not very good at upholding its law and order system, at least for relatively minor issues. We are seeing posters on here all the time who know what they are proposing is illegal or "circumventing the rules", but the perceived risk of being caught is low. And with good reason.

For example; I think it is fair to say that the black economy is much more prevalent in Spain than in more "rigid" countries, people evade tax more frequently and even openly. I read the other day also that there are approx. 9 million vehicles in Spain without a valid ITV... 9 million !!!!

So is it any surprise that some expats / immigrants here have a carefree attitude to the rules and regulations?

I bet that in Germany the situation is not the same.


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## suiko

Thanks again. I am selling my house, though obviously that's too late for this tax year.


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## Megsmum

suiko said:


> Thanks again. I am selling my house, though obviously that's too late for this tax year.


Why! Sorry I’m confused


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## suiko

Too late to avoid the capital gains tax, which would (at least according to Ever Hopeful's post) be applicable should I apply for residency in 2020, as this is the year I will sell my house in the UK.


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## 95995

Overandout said:


> Or is it just the "when in Rome" syndrome?
> 
> We see only the Spanish perspective, a country which (if we are honest) is not very good at upholding its law and order system, at least for relatively minor issues. We are seeing posters on here all the time who know what they are proposing is illegal or "circumventing the rules", but the perceived risk of being caught is low. And with good reason.
> 
> For example; I think it is fair to say that the black economy is much more prevalent in Spain than in more "rigid" countries, people evade tax more frequently and even openly. I read the other day also that there are approx. 9 million vehicles in Spain without a valid ITV... 9 million !!!!
> 
> So is it any surprise that some expats / immigrants here have a carefree attitude to the rules and regulations?
> 
> I bet that in Germany the situation is not the same.


But for some, eg. those claiming residence this year when they are not resident, the risk could be high including in relation to tax.


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## kaipa

I suppose for many ex Pat's, ensconced in their little communties where English is used in shops ,restaurants etc the presence of spanish society barely impinges on their lives. That being the case the fear of the law must be considerably lessened. Good luck to all of them who are heading off to Alicante traffic on Friday believing there is no pressure regarding exchanging their licences, which they should have done years ago.


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## Megsmum

suiko said:


> Too late to avoid the capital gains tax, which would (at least according to Ever Hopeful's post) be applicable should I apply for residency in 2020, as this is the year I will sell my house in the UK.


Sorry. I am really confused. So you are planning to move here next year as a full term resident? Or you are planning to become resident here this year.?


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## suiko

This year doing the residency stuff. So that would make me liable to Spanish tax, presumably.

And next year full-time. That's my idea, at least.


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## Megsmum

suiko said:


> This year doing the residency stuff. So that would make me liable to Spanish tax, presumably.
> 
> And next year full-time. That's my idea, at least.


But, if you are resident they will presume this is your center of financial interest?

So let’s say what it is , you are trying to illegally claim residency whilst not actually being a resident!

I thought forum rules were that we should not be promoting illegal activities. 

I’m still confused 🤷*♀


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## MataMata

Barriej said:


> If you would like a nice bit of bedtime reading. Ive been scanning through this today, while waiting for my latest creations to tumble polish.
> 
> Its the Royal decree dated March 2019.
> It appears that there have been no updates to this and so far the only bit that is of interest to me is in chapter 4. About driving licences.
> If this information has been available since early 2019 Im wondering why the Uk.Gov site states something different. Im going to ask my MP later in the week to look into this for me (about time he did something for his constituents)
> 
> Wording is below. Taken directly from
> https://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/en/brexit/howtoprepare/Documents/Royal Decree-Law 5-2019.pdf
> 
> 
> Moving on to Part 4, the objective of Article 22 is to find a suitable solution for those citizens residing in Spain who hold a British driving licence that is
> currently valid to drive in our country as a licence issued by a country that is an EU Member State, but which will cease to be valid upon the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the European Union.
> For this reason, a transitional nine-month period has been established, during which holders of a driving licence issued by British authorities who have acquired residence in Spain shall be able to exchange this driving licence for a Spanish licence, pursuant to prevailing traffic legislation, which shall enable them to continue driving in our country despite the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the European Union.
> The above notwithstanding, during this nine-month transitional period, this exchange shall be possible provided that the current verification system for driving licences established in the framework of the European Union is maintained. Were this system not to be maintained, it would not be possible to exchange driving licences issued by the United Kingdom.
> After this nine-month period has elapsed, driving licences issued by British authorities shall be subject to Spanish law regarding driving licences issued by third countries, and it shall no longer be possible to exchange them for Spanish licences, until a bilateral agreement for the exchange of driving licences is formalized with the United Kingdom.
> 
> Ive underlined the last bit. So why could Spain (and other EU countries I assume) have left everything the same until the 31st Dec at the end of the transition period. When I suppose any agreements will have been made?
> 
> I know Im banging on about this, but so far its the only fly in my soup with regards to our move in July.


See my previous post. 

https://www.expatforum.com/expats/s...ving-rights-spain-brexit-14.html#post15031204


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## Overandout

Is it actually illegal to register as an EU citizen resident in Spain, and then not be?

The law says that any EU citizen who arrives in Spain and has the intention to stay for more than 3 months must register. Then the law says that if that person leaves Spain for more than 2 years that registration lapses and becomes void.

So, if the OP was to arrive, register, then leave afterwards, would they have broken the law? If so how? I am struggling to see it.


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## paulhe

lets hope this sort of thing doesn't start happening

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51280617


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## 95995

paulhe said:


> lets hope this sort of thing doesn't start happening
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51280617


*Citizenship by naturalisation has nothing to do with Brexit and has always been a sovereign issue* - this guy still gets to stay in France and normally citizenship applications can again be made after 2 years. There are a whole range of 'integration' etc. requirements to gaining citizenship by naturalisation in France, though 5 years' legal residence is a requirement in most instances (as opposed to 10 in Spain).


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## Megsmum

Overandout said:


> Is it actually illegal to register as an EU citizen resident in Spain, and then not be?
> 
> The law says that any EU citizen who arrives in Spain and has the intention to stay for more than 3 months must register. Then the law says that if that person leaves Spain for more than 2 years that registration lapses and becomes void.
> 
> So, if the OP was to arrive, register, then leave afterwards, would they have broken the law? If so how? I am struggling to see it.


I don’t know, it should have been a ? Mark as opposed to an exclamation mark. Apologies

I just don’t see how registering avoids capital gains tax etc?


----------



## Megsmum

paulhe said:


> lets hope this sort of thing doesn't start happening
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51280617


Could have happened last year, this year or next year has no bearing on Brexit


----------



## xabiaxica

Overandout said:


> Is it actually illegal to register as an EU citizen resident in Spain, and then not be?
> 
> The law says that any EU citizen who arrives in Spain and has the intention to stay for more than 3 months must register. Then the law says that if that person leaves Spain for more than 2 years that registration lapses and becomes void.
> 
> So, if the OP was to arrive, register, then leave afterwards, would they have broken the law? If so how? I am struggling to see it.


You are also required to deregister when you stop living here. 

My itchy feet daughter doesn't deregister when she goes off on her travels, & has in fact never left completely for more than 9 months, returning for a month or two each time. 

This is still her home, & she intends to settle down eventually in Valencia city - or perhaps Milan! 

I will be strongly encouraging her to sort her TIE out when she is here this summer before her next adventure in India. She'll be applying for Spanish citizenship when she returns from that one, & that's when she plans to settle for a while at least. 

Of course moving to Milan, if she decides to, will have to wait until the Spanish citizenship come through.


----------



## Overandout

xabiaxica said:


> You are also required to deregister when you stop living here.
> 
> My itchy feet daughter doesn't deregister when she goes off on her travels, & has in fact never left completely for more than 9 months, returning for a month or two each time.
> 
> This is still her home, & she intends to settle down eventually in Valencia city - or perhaps Milan!
> 
> I will be strongly encouraging her to sort her TIE out when she is here this summer before her next adventure in India. She'll be applying for Spanish citizenship when she returns from that one, & that's when she plans to settle for a while at least.
> 
> Of course moving to Milan, if she decides to, will have to wait until the Spanish citizenship come through.


Firstly, I know that there is no real useful benefit to this "argument" but anyhow, I did try to research a bit.

I know that according to extranjería, you are supposed to deregister if you leave, but I have looked at the law and I cannot actually find where it says this. In fact, in the list of sanctionable offenses (minor, serious and very serious), leaving Spain without deregistering is not listed, so even if it is a requirement under law, there doesn't seem to be any punishment for not complying ... 

Now I may have missed something and I have only looked through the "Ley Orgánica 4/2000 of 11th January" so maybe it is regulated elsewhere, but I am really struggling to see how this is illegal.


----------



## xabiaxica

Overandout said:


> Firstly, I know that there is no real useful benefit to this "argument" but anyhow, I did try to research a bit.
> 
> I know that according to extranjería, you are supposed to deregister if you leave, but I have looked at the law and I cannot actually find where it says this. In fact, in the list of sanctionable offenses (minor, serious and very serious), leaving Spain without deregistering is not listed, so even if it is a requirement under law, there doesn't seem to be any punishment for not complying ...
> 
> Now I may have missed something and I have only looked through the "Ley Orgánica 4/2000 of 11th January" so maybe it is regulated elsewhere, but I am really struggling to see how this is illegal.


If you don't 'deregister', Hacienda would consider that you still lived here, & you would be required to submit a tax return... 

Perhaps in practice, if you leave & don't return, nothing would come of it.

But coming & going, it's likely that questions would be asked at some stage. At which point the onus is on you to prove that you aren't resident, rather than for Hacienda to prove that you are.


----------



## Love Karma

xabiaxica said:


> If you don't 'deregister', Hacienda would consider that you still lived here, & you would be required to submit a tax return...
> 
> Perhaps in practice, if you leave & don't return, nothing would come of it.
> 
> But coming & going, it's likely that questions would be asked at some stage. At which point the onus is on you to prove that you aren't resident, rather than for Hacienda to prove that you are.


I would say its extremely remote that anything would happen. From personal experience my sister was resident in Spain living in Seville from 1998 until 2012 when she moved back to the U.K, she never deregistered and since 2012 has visited Spain at least 20 times without issue.


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## Overandout

Love Karma said:


> I would say its extremely remote that anything would happen. From personal experience my sister was resident in Spain living in Seville from 1998 until 2012 when she moved back to the U.K, she never deregistered and since 2012 has visited Spain at least 20 times without issue.


Me too. I went and lived in Thailand for 3 years without deregistering. No problems at all, I registered as "non-resident" with Hacienda and they didn't ask anything about extranjería, it as a totally different process.

Upon coming back, I thought I might get some questions, like why my kids hadn't been to school for 3 years! But nothing, nada, zip....


----------



## Megsmum

Love Karma said:


> I would say its extremely remote that anything would happen. From personal experience my sister was resident in Spain living in Seville from 1998 until 2012 when she moved back to the U.K, she never deregistered and since 2012 has visited Spain at least 20 times without issue.





Overandout said:


> Me too. I went and lived in Thailand for 3 years without deregistering. No problems at all, I registered as "non-resident" with Hacienda and they didn't ask anything about extranjería, it as a totally different process.
> 
> Upon coming back, I thought I might get some questions, like why my kids hadn't been to school for 3 years! But nothing, nada, zip....


I wonder if it’s the same for third country nationals? I’m not sure I’d be risking anything slightly under the table on the off chance they might not do anything. 
Post Brexit, it’s perfectly possible that U.K. citizens will be under slightly more scrutiny exiting and entering the country, might not be but...


----------



## Isobella

Probably be many stories like this during the coming months. Most have the reason why in the small print.


----------



## suiko

Megsmum said:


> But, if you are resident they will presume this is your center of financial interest?
> 
> So let’s say what it is , you are trying to illegally claim residency whilst not actually being a resident!
> 
> I thought forum rules were that we should not be promoting illegal activities.
> 
> I’m still confused 🤷*♀


Yes. 

You could of course read it like that. I prefer to read it as attempting to ensure my future residency rights by taking a necessarily unorthodox approach


----------



## kaipa

Suiko: Let's be honest. You will be able to get residency if you do the necessary things and you will be able to go back to uk and stay there. All you will need to do is submit a tax form in spain where you can submit your income from uk but hope it is small enough to not attract any real tax in spain. You can keep your uk bank accounts and as long as you dont really have any large lumps of money coming in, be relatively okay. I guess strictly speaking it is not legal and therefore the choice is one you take. Of course you would also be taking advantage of a system that is intended to be fair for all so as long as you dont criticize others when they abuse the system your conscience might remain clean.


----------



## paulhe

xabiaxica said:


> You are also required to deregister when you stop living here.
> 
> My itchy feet daughter doesn't deregister when she goes off on her travels, & has in fact never left completely for more than 9 months, returning for a month or two each time.
> 
> This is still her home, & she intends to settle down eventually in Valencia city - or perhaps Milan!
> 
> I will be strongly encouraging her to sort her TIE out when she is here this summer before her next adventure in India. She'll be applying for Spanish citizenship when she returns from that one, & that's when she plans to settle for a while at least.
> 
> Of course moving to Milan, if she decides to, will have to wait until the Spanish citizenship come through.


Under common law principles she would be domiciled in Spain but not necessarily resident there. Even if she moved to Milan if indeed her domicile was always Spain. She may in time become domiciled in Italy. Not sure if Spain recognises that distinction ? Does anyone know?
paul


----------



## paulhe

Conflict of laws is an interesting legal study but which may have practical application to some issues discussed on this forum
https://e-justice.europa.eu/content_which_law_will_apply-340-es-en.do?member=1


----------



## paulhe

possibly post Brexit


----------



## mchoirmoister

This is all super confusing but this issue about whether you can go to Spain, get a TIE card and then head back home to the UK for a while having secured rights to travel in and out of Spain for long periods of time is exactly what I'm deliberating on.

Very much interested to see if we can get any info on the dubiousness of doing this. Bearing in mind I think I would have to register as Autónomo in Spain which I've heard is an absolute nightmare.


----------



## Barriej

I got this yesterday from the Consulate Facebook page. Mainly because I asked for clarification on the Driving Licence exchange. As I'm not moving over till July (and I didn't want to get a padron cert, which I'm not entitled to yet) just to get the exchange in early.

Lots of others asked the same question. The answer is below. However the Spanish DGT still states 31,01,20 so I'm still confused. 

I'm going to leave it for a month and then ask my solicitor to check for me.


From Brits in Spain Facebook. 

We know there has been some confusion around the exchange of UK driving licences and whether you need to start the process by 31 January. The information currently on the DGT website referring to the need to register your details by 31 January would apply only to a no-deal scenario. The UK is set to leave the EU with a deal under the terms of the Withdrawal Agreement. In practice this means that the rules around the exchange of UK licences will remain the same during the transition period. You will have until 31 December to exchange your UK licence for a Spanish one under the current rules, so there is no need to worry if you are unable to start the process before 31 January. But don't leave it til the last minute - book an appointment on dgt.es as soon as you can. Remember you can exchange your licence anywhere in Spain - it doesn't have to be where you are officially resident. Once you have made the exchange, your Spanish licence will be accepted in the UK when you visit and you can exchange it for a UK licence again should you return to the UK permanently.


----------



## Juan C

I was given this info this morning by /SNIP/ 

“ Residents who are in possession of a UK driving licence can change these for a Spanish permit up till the end of the transition period. Those who have been resident for two years should exchange the permits as soon as possible.”

I do not know how those not yet resident in Spain will need to proceed


----------



## xabiaxica

Juan C said:


> I was given this info this morning by /SNIP/
> 
> “ Residents who are in possession of a UK driving licence can change these for a Spanish permit up till the end of the transition period. Those who have been resident for two years should exchange the permits as soon as possible.”
> 
> I do not know how those not yet resident in Spain will need to proceed


That info is incomplete though.


----------



## xabiaxica

mchoirmoister said:


> This is all super confusing but this issue about whether you can go to Spain, get a TIE card and then head back home to the UK for a while having secured rights to travel in and out of Spain for long periods of time is exactly what I'm deliberating on.
> 
> Very much interested to see if we can get any info on the dubiousness of doing this. Bearing in mind I think I would have to register as Autónomo in Spain which I've heard is an absolute nightmare.


Registering as autónomo isn't complicated at all. You *do* have to run a business here though, & submit quarterly tax returns.


----------



## kaipa

So it is abundantly clear that many people are going to try and register as residents in the next year and then live in UK so that they come and go as they please. First though you will need to pay for healthcare for a year, unless you submit an S1, which you can only get if you are leaving uk. Third you will need to make a spanish tax declaration and declare all your assets over 50,000€. Fourth you will need to hand over your uk licence to get a spanish one.( so no UK one) And finally its ILLEGAL and after all the crap we have gone through with Brexit and the xenophobic claims that immigrants abuse the system etc it makes me so angry that some expats think nothing of abusing the spanish system


----------



## xabiaxica

Barriej said:


> I got this yesterday from the Consulate Facebook page. Mainly because I asked for clarification on the Driving Licence exchange. As I'm not moving over till July (and I didn't want to get a padron cert, which I'm not entitled to yet) just to get the exchange in early.
> 
> Lots of others asked the same question. The answer is below. However the Spanish DGT still states 31,01,20 so I'm still confused.
> 
> I'm going to leave it for a month and then ask my solicitor to check for me.
> 
> 
> From Brits in Spain Facebook.
> 
> We know there has been some confusion around the exchange of UK driving licences and whether you need to start the process by 31 January. The information currently on the DGT website referring to the need to register your details by 31 January would apply only to a no-deal scenario. The UK is set to leave the EU with a deal under the terms of the Withdrawal Agreement. In practice this means that the rules around the exchange of UK licences will remain the same during the transition period. You will have until 31 December to exchange your UK licence for a Spanish one under the current rules, so there is no need to worry if you are unable to start the process before 31 January. But don't leave it til the last minute - book an appointment on dgt.es as soon as you can. Remember you can exchange your licence anywhere in Spain - it doesn't have to be where you are officially resident. Once you have made the exchange, your Spanish licence will be accepted in the UK when you visit and you can exchange it for a UK licence again should you return to the UK permanently.


The deal or no deal scenario would make sense. 

I'll be checking the DGT website periodically for changes.


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> So it is abundantly clear that many people are going to try and register as residents in the next year and then live in UK so that they come and go as they please. First though you will need to pay for healthcare for a year, unless you submit an S1, which you can only get if you are leaving uk. Third you will need to make a spanish tax declaration and declare all your assets over 50,000€. Fourth you will need to hand over your uk licence to get a spanish one.( so no UK one) And finally its ILLEGAL and after all the crap we have gone through with Brexit and the xenophobic claims that immigrants abuse the system etc it makes me so angry that some expats think nothing of abusing the spanish system


Ironic, isn't it? 


I've allowed the discussion to go on, because it has been made clear that to do so would be illegal, & in no way has anyone encouraged it. 

In the past it has been easy for Brits to stay under the radar, but you can bet that we will be under much closer scrutiny for some time - perhaps even closer than other 3rd country citizens.


----------



## Megsmum

mchoirmoister said:


> This is all super confusing but this issue about whether you can go to Spain, get a TIE card and then head back home to the UK for a while having secured rights to travel in and out of Spain for long periods of time is exactly what I'm deliberating on.
> 
> Very much interested to see if we can get any info on the dubiousness of doing this. Bearing in mind I think I would have to register as Autónomo in Spain which I've heard is an absolute nightmare.


Nothing onerous apart from the €300 odd euros a month you HAVE to pay to remain autonomo, the quarterly tax and VAT returns you HAVE to make.

I’m not sure it is super confusing TBH

Shoe other foot

Man next door arrives from Poland next week, signs up for residency in U.K. then beggars back to Poland for a year or two before retiring to U.K, or arrives for long stays!

I can hear the wailing and Nashing of teeth already.

Whilst, I do feel for those who had plans which Brexit has curtailed, and this is not directed at any poster in particular, as long term residents with plans many of us have also had our rights curtailed, freedom of movement, more stress, those with children a complete change in their future. We for instance do not know if the S1 for free healthcare for future pensioners will continue so we will have to adapt our budgets and plans to cover that 

Just like before we had the EU people are going to have to adjust their plans to suit this new world we find ourselves in. No, it’s not fair, but not much in life is.

Bit ranty but I’m in a ranty mood


----------



## Isobella

Megsmum said:


> Shoe other foot
> 
> Man next door arrives from Poland next week, signs up for residency in U.K. then beggars back to Poland for a year or two before retiring to U.K, or arrives for long stays!
> 
> I can hear the wailing and Nashing of teeth already.
> 
> Whilst, I do feel for those who had plans which Brexit has curtailed, and this is not directed at any poster in particular, as long term residents with plans many of us have also had our rights curtailed, freedom of movement, more stress, those with children a complete change in their future. We for instance do not know if the S1 for free healthcare for future pensioners will continue so we will have to adapt our budgets and plans to cover that
> 
> Just like before we had the EU people are going to have to adjust their plans to suit this new world we find ourselves in. No, it’s not fair, but not much in life is.
> 
> Bit ranty but I’m in a ranty mood


Yes lots of fiddles going on. A few years ago a friend (or more accurate conicida) asked if she could use my UK address. She was broke and wanted to apply for pension credit and god knows what else. Her SIL agreed.
Daughter took out empadramiento because the company she bought her car told her she needed to show it. She did own a house but wasn't living there.


----------



## Rheumatoid

kaipa said:


> So it is abundantly clear that many people are going to try and register as residents in the next year and then live in UK so that they come and go as they please. First though you will need to pay for healthcare for a year, unless you submit an S1, which you can only get if you are leaving uk. Third you will need to make a spanish tax declaration and declare all your assets over 50,000€. Fourth you will need to hand over your uk licence to get a spanish one.( so no UK one) And finally its ILLEGAL and after all the crap we have gone through with Brexit and the xenophobic claims that immigrants abuse the system etc it makes me so angry that some expats think nothing of abusing the spanish system


Yes, they are immigrants themselves and badly behaved ones at that. But then being British they are obviously not as bad as all the the nasty immigrants that have been flooding the UK. The British sense of entitlement never ceases to amaze. 

Maybe they should all be called immigrants to make them aware what they are. Perhaps this forum could have its name changed to immigrantforum?


----------



## Barriej

Problem as I see it, is that you can with a little thought, manage to stay under the radar as it were. I've been around and could probably do it if I wanted. 

I know of a couple who have lived in Spain for some time, who are not resident and travel back and forth to the UK for medical and other reasons. They have a fair amount of money but think that they will get taxed badly if legal in Spain. They 'live' with their daughter in the Uk on paper that is. 

I also know of a few people at the factory I worked in making sandwiches for a well known retailer that would 'share' UK NI numbers. They arrived from somewhere and stayed and worked for a year or so. Then left and someone else would start. 

Many years ago I worked in a factory in LA and lots of the Mexicans there came and went once they thought they were about to get caught. 

It happens and will keep happening. I doubt it will ever stop and I don't know how you could even begin to try to prevent it.


----------



## Lynn R

This is an extract from an article in The Guardian today:-

"As a retired British citizen living in the EU, I’m very worried about both my healthcare provision and UK state pension after Brexit. I’ve heard so many different versions. What is the situation exactly – should I be concerned?
Susan Templeton, France

There is a lot of confusion about this: people still have in mind the rules that would have applied in the case of a no-deal exit. The rules for both healthcare and pensions are clearly set out in the withdrawal agreement, a legally binding international treaty.


If you have an S1 reciprocal healthcare form (mainly applies to UK pensioners settled in the EU before 31 December), the UK will continue to meet the healthcare costs of you and your family as long as you remain legally resident in your host country, without time limit.

An S1 form will also entitle you to a UK EHIC card for treatment when travelling within the EU, and UK law in any case entitles you to free treatment in Britain. Of course, if you are working in your host country and paying into its social security system, you will continue to be covered for healthcare there as before."

I knew that the Withdrawal Agreement guaranteed that UK pensioners already resident in EU member state would retain their existing rights to healthcare via the S1 form, but I must admit I wasn't aware that existing holders of an S1 form would continue to be entitled to an EHIC card for use when travelling to other EU member states. If this is true I will be very pleased because due to recent health issues I am finding it impossible to obtain travel insurance.


----------



## baldilocks

Lynn R said:


> This is an extract from an article in The Guardian today:-
> 
> "As a retired British citizen living in the EU, I’m very worried about both my healthcare provision and UK state pension after Brexit. I’ve heard so many different versions. What is the situation exactly – should I be concerned?
> Susan Templeton, France
> 
> There is a lot of confusion about this: people still have in mind the rules that would have applied in the case of a no-deal exit. The rules for both healthcare and pensions are clearly set out in the withdrawal agreement, a legally binding international treaty.
> 
> 
> If you have an S1 reciprocal healthcare form (mainly applies to UK pensioners settled in the EU before 31 December), the UK will continue to meet the healthcare costs of you and your family as long as you remain legally resident in your host country, without time limit.
> 
> An S1 form will also entitle you to a UK EHIC card for treatment when travelling within the EU, and UK law in any case entitles you to free treatment in Britain. Of course, if you are working in your host country and paying into its social security system, you will continue to be covered for healthcare there as before."
> 
> I knew that the Withdrawal Agreement guaranteed that UK pensioners already resident in EU member state would retain their existing rights to healthcare via the S1 form, but I must admit I wasn't aware that existing holders of an S1 form would continue to be entitled to an EHIC card for use when travelling to other EU member states. If this is true I will be very pleased because due to recent health issues I am finding it impossible to obtain travel insurance.


What doesn't seem to have been covered, as far as I can see, is whether the EU Pensions Regulations will still be applied for those retiring after 31.12.21, i.e. the country in which one last worked will be the one responsible for collating all one's pensions and paying the final OAP or whether it will be down to individual countries.


----------



## Megsmum

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-...ign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate


Just arrived 



> Your current rights to healthcare in your country of residence will remain the same, as long as you remain covered by the Withdrawal Agreement. If the UK pays for your healthcare, for example through the S1 scheme, this is included.
> 
> 
> If you are living in the EU, EEA or Switzerland by 31 December 2020, and if you receive a UK State Pension, it will continue to be uprated as long as you continue to live there. This will happen even if you start claiming your pension on or after 1 January 2021, as long as you meet the qualifying conditions explained in the new State Pension guidance.
> 
> If you are living in the EU, EEA or Switzerland by 31 December 2020, you will continue to receive any UK benefits you already receive. This will continue for as long as you live there and meet all other eligibility requirements.
> 
> 
> You and your family may need to apply for a residence status to confirm that you were already resident in the EU country you live in before 31 December 2020. You will have until at least 30 June 2021 to do this.
> 
> The EU country where you live may set up a system for applying for a residence status. The application should be short, simple and either free of charge, or cost no more than applying for a similar document, for example a national identity card or passport.
> 
> You will have until at least 30 June 2021 to submit your application. We will share information on how to apply in our Living in guides when it is available.
> 
> 
> Permanent residency documents
> You will be able to exchange valid permanent residence documents for a new residence document free of charge until at least 30 June 2021. This also applies to valid domestic immigration documents that confirm your permanent right to live in a country. You may need to provide proof of identity and undergo criminality and security checks.



:clap2:


----------



## snikpoh

Lynn R said:


> This is an extract from an article in The Guardian today:-
> 
> 
> 
> There is a lot of confusion about this: people still have in mind the rules that would have applied in the case of a no-deal exit. The rules for both healthcare and pensions are clearly set out in the withdrawal agreement, a legally binding international treaty.


But there still might be no deal - we will have to wait and see.

I don't understand why the Guardian is stating that no-deal is now off the table - it isn't


----------



## kaipa

Yes the Guardian article is strange. I think they mean by no deal the WA not going through. However the article seems to deal with issues regarding the next year which technically means nothing changes. The changes wont happen till Jan 2021 that's when we will see what it all means. The right wing press are doing the same thing: bragging about how project fear was nonsense and going on about how nothing bad will happen after Friday!!


----------



## Lynn R

snikpoh said:


> But there still might be no deal - we will have to wait and see.
> 
> I don't understand why the Guardian is stating that no-deal is now off the table - it isn't


As I understand it, there may be no trade deal reached with the EU by the end of the transition period, but that would not change the fact that the Withdrawal Agreement which guarantees citizens' rights, including healthcare and annual uprating of pensions, has been approved by both the UK and the EU.

This statement was issued by the British Consul in Madrid on 28 January, and confirms that under the Withdrawal Agreement confers these rights for as long as UK citizens already resident in an EU member state remains resident in that country.

"A message from British ConsulSarah-Jane Morris to UK nationals in Spain

The Withdrawal Agreement which sets out how the UK leaves the EU has now passed into UK law, which, once the European Parliament has ratified it this week, means that the UK is leaving the EU with a deal on 31 January.

This is very positive news for UK nationals who are resident in Spain, as the Withdrawal Agreement contains some really important protections for your rights:

You will be able to continue to live and work in Spain

UK state pensioners will continue to have lifelong healthcare as long as they remain living in Spain. This also applies to residents who claim a UK state pension in the future

Your UK state pension will continue to be uprated

You will be able to exchange your driving licence until the end of 2020 without taking a driving test and your Spanish licence will be accepted in the UK when you visit

Those rights will be protected for as long as you live in Spain, provided you are legally resident here by the end of 2020.

The Withdrawal Agreement also provides a Transition Period (from 31 January until 31 December) during which time nothing will change for UK Nationals in Spain.

Sarah-Jane Morris said: “The approval of the Withdrawal Agreement is a very important step for UK nationals living here. It provides reassurance on key rights, such as being able to continue to live and work here, and for pensioners to have lifelong healthcare and uprated pensions. Alongside those rights, you have obligations – the main one being to make sure you are registered with a green residency certificate. This remains a valid document after 31 January and we will communicate any details on future residency processes once we have them. For further information visit the Living in SpainGuide on gov.uk”.

To view,the latest video message from HMA Hugh Elliott to UK nationals visit:



To put your questions to HMA Hugh Elliott and Regional Consular Policy Adviser Lorna Geddie join our Facebook Live Q&A on Friday 31 January at midday (CET) on facebook.com/britsinspain

Information for UK nationals can be found at gov.uk/livinginspain"


----------



## Megsmum

A no deal has no bearing on citizens rights as posted in my link above received today from U.K. government.

Citizens rights are agreed within the withdrawal agreement


----------



## 95995

The next phase of the Brexit process does not, of course, relate only to trade. There is still the Irish border to sort out, together with I think some other outstanding issues where additional time has been allowed, and citizens' rights will continue to be scrutinised and considered as the remaining negotiations continue/commence. But officially as of midnight tomorrow the UK is no longer a member of the EU and UK MEPs have already been farewelled and the EU Parliament ratified the WA yesterday by a massive majority.


----------



## baldilocks

EverHopeful said:


> UK MEPs have already been farewelled and the EU Parliament ratified the WA yesterday by a massive majority.


They did have the added incentive of getting rid of Farage.:clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2:


----------



## Megsmum

Lynn R said:


> As I understand it, there may be no trade deal reached with the EU by the end of the transition period, but that would not change the fact that the Withdrawal Agreement which guarantees citizens' rights, including healthcare and annual uprating of pensions, has been approved by both the UK and the EU.
> 
> This statement was issued by the British Consul in Madrid on 28 January, and confirms that under the Withdrawal Agreement confers these rights for as long as UK citizens already resident in an EU member state remains resident in that country.
> 
> "A message from British ConsulSarah-Jane Morris to UK nationals in Spain
> 
> The Withdrawal Agreement which sets out how the UK leaves the EU has now passed into UK law, which, once the European Parliament has ratified it this week, means that the UK is leaving the EU with a deal on 31 January.
> 
> This is very positive news for UK nationals who are resident in Spain, as the Withdrawal Agreement contains some really important protections for your rights:
> 
> You will be able to continue to live and work in Spain
> 
> UK state pensioners will continue to have lifelong healthcare as long as they remain living in Spain. This also applies to residents who claim a UK state pension in the future
> 
> Your UK state pension will continue to be uprated
> 
> You will be able to exchange your driving licence until the end of 2020 without taking a driving test and your Spanish licence will be accepted in the UK when you visit
> 
> Those rights will be protected for as long as you live in Spain, provided you are legally resident here by the end of 2020.
> 
> The Withdrawal Agreement also provides a Transition Period (from 31 January until 31 December) during which time nothing will change for UK Nationals in Spain.
> 
> Sarah-Jane Morris said: “The approval of the Withdrawal Agreement is a very important step for UK nationals living here. It provides reassurance on key rights, such as being able to continue to live and work here, and for pensioners to have lifelong healthcare and uprated pensions. Alongside those rights, you have obligations – the main one being to make sure you are registered with a green residency certificate. This remains a valid document after 31 January and we will communicate any details on future residency processes once we have them. For further information visit the Living in SpainGuide on gov.uk”.
> 
> To view,the latest video message from HMA Hugh Elliott to UK nationals visit:
> 
> 
> 
> To put your questions to HMA Hugh Elliott and Regional Consular Policy Adviser Lorna Geddie join our Facebook Live Q&A on Friday 31 January at midday (CET) on facebook.com/britsinspain
> 
> Information for UK nationals can be found at gov.uk/livinginspain"





> UK state pensioners will continue to have lifelong healthcare as long as they remain living in Spain. This also applies to residents who claim a UK state pension in the future


I cannot see anything official about this? It’s not on the UKGOV site re healthcare post Brexit


----------



## mchoirmoister

kaipa said:


> So it is abundantly clear that many people are going to try and register as residents in the next year and then live in UK so that they come and go as they please. First though you will need to pay for healthcare for a year, unless you submit an S1, which you can only get if you are leaving uk. Third you will need to make a spanish tax declaration and declare all your assets over 50,000€. Fourth you will need to hand over your uk licence to get a spanish one.( so no UK one) And finally its ILLEGAL and after all the crap we have gone through with Brexit and the xenophobic claims that immigrants abuse the system etc it makes me so angry that some expats think nothing of abusing the spanish system


The only thing I would say is that according to my understanding it's a bit of a grey area. As I understand it:


If you intend to stay in Spain for more than 3 months you must apply for residency
Unless you have assets or other interests in Spain, being there for under 183 days does not make you a tax resident
Although there is a deregistration process for residency, from what I've read from people's experiences here - some have even been advised not to deregister as resident by the extranjeria

So if one were to visit Spain for 5 months, it would be essential that they apply for residency. It then seems that on returning to the UK, it's not advised even by funcionarios themselves to deregister your residency.

I'd also be keen to see exactly how it's illegal to leave the country without handing in your residency card?


----------



## mchoirmoister

Just to add as well, in my own personal circumstances I'm not eligible to submit an S1 and neither do I have assets over 50,000 EUR.


----------



## Barriej

Received this morning from the British consulate about driving licence exchange.
I explained that we will be moving in July the below is the answer. 


Hi Barrie - you will be able to exchange your licence until the end of the transition period (ie 31 December 2020). Best,


----------



## kaipa

Mchoirmoister: Once you register you are indicating that spain is your principal place of interest as far as tax man is concerned. The 183 days is to catch people who would claim then didnt have residency so their didnt have to pay tax by just moving back and forward. It really is quite simple. If a Polish person applied for settled status in uk then went back to Poland to work and paid no uk tax but came to uk for his right to free healthcare you would feel he was abusing the system?


----------



## mchoirmoister

kaipa said:


> Mchoirmoister: Once you register you are indicating that spain is your principal place of interest as far as tax man is concerned. The 183 days is to catch people who would claim then didnt have residency so their didnt have to pay tax by just moving back and forward. It really is quite simple. If a Polish person applied for settled status in uk then went back to Poland to work and paid no uk tax but came to uk for his right to free healthcare you would feel he was abusing the system?


I don't really necessarily agree with that interpretation. Once you register you're indicating that you intend to stay in Spain for more than 3 months (this is a requirement by Spain). If you spend more than 183 days in the UK then you are entitled to get a proof of residency certificate from HMRC which would be sufficient proof to the Spanish authorities that you are a tax resident of the UK. 

In my situation I won't be eligible to claim free healthcare and will be paying for private health insurance. I'm not actually planning to make Spain my place of permanent residence and instead intend to spend longer than 3 months there (between 3 and 6 months) whilst renting a property.


----------



## kaipa

You cant stay in spain for more than 90 days without having residency. Residency means that is where you live!!!. You can stay in spain for 90 days as a tourist and return to uk which is your home. If you stay more than 90 days without registering you are breaking the law. You cant take a healthcare policy unless you live in spain ie spain is your home. If what you said was perfectly legal we would all just take advantage of the UK's generous tax allowances and then contribute nothing to the country we like to live in. Either way you are abusing the system and after having listened to thd radio today with people celebrating the UK's departure this really isnt the time to be looking at how to enjoy the freedoms of Europe when ( maybe not you) so many Brits talk so badly about europe. I'm sorry but today is a crap day for many of us


----------



## xabiaxica

mchoirmoister said:


> The only thing I would say is that according to my understanding it's a bit of a grey area. As I understand it:
> 
> 
> If you intend to stay in Spain for more than 3 months you must apply for residency
> Unless you have assets or other interests in Spain, being there for under 183 days does not make you a tax resident
> Although there is a deregistration process for residency, from what I've read from people's experiences here - some have even been advised not to deregister as resident by the extranjeria
> 
> *So if one were to visit Spain for 5 months, it would be essential that they apply for residency.* It then seems that on returning to the UK, it's not advised even by funcionarios themselves to deregister your residency.
> 
> I'd also be keen to see exactly how it's illegal to leave the country without handing in your residency card?


As a non-EU citizen if you wish to stay longer than 90 days in 180, you would apply for a resident visa which would initially only be issued for one year, after which you would have to essentially re-apply. 

A new visa isn't automatic, & you would have to leave the country if refused.


----------



## mchoirmoister

xabiaxica said:


> As a non-EU citizen if you wish to stay longer than 90 days in 180, you would apply for a resident visa which would initially only be issued for one year, after which you would have to essentially re-apply.
> 
> A new visa isn't automatic, & you would have to leave the country if refused.


What about trying to get a residency card (TIE) this year to secure rights to stay for periods longer than 90 days in a 180 day period in the future? That's what I'm investigating at the moment.

I totally agree with you kaipa about today being a crap day. I do hear what you're saying about residency but I'm wanting also to make sure that I exhaust every option and get all the advice I possibly can. If it turns out there's a way to secure the right to visit Spain for periods longer than 3 months in a year post-brexit then that's what I'll be doing. Your point about being able to obtain health insurance is a valid one and one I'll be looking into that. If it does indeed turn out that it's impossible to obtain health insurance in Spain without a permanent (i.e. fiscal) residency status then that certainly makes things trickier.


----------



## kaipa

You cant secure rights to visit spain for more than 90 days. You are playing with words. You either live in spain as a resident or you are a tourist!! If you live here you pay tax and contribute to the country. If you dont want to contribute then live in uk and contribute there and visit spain as a tourist but you cant have your cake and eat it!!


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## mchoirmoister

All I'm doing is attempting to tick all the right boxes. If I'm successful in doing so then I will have done nothing below board or illegal. Fingers crossed I can get all the boxes ticked.


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## kaipa

The only legal position is : 90 days live in spain
After ( or before) 90 days apply for residency. Live in Spain. Pay Tax in spain. Dont live in UK. Dont pay tax in UK. Everything else is possible/ done by lots/ but effectively ILLEGAL. Now if you really really want to know what is absolutely legal phone the spanish tax authority and tell them your plans as laid out here and see what they say. It is quick, easy and costs nothing!!


----------



## mchoirmoister

Thanks for the advice so far. 

If it is indeed not possible then 90 days on/90 days off wouldn't be a bad situation either to be honest. It's still the same amount of time in Spain per year.

I'll contact a legal advisor and see what they say too (not meaning to offend anyone here but I'm sure you'll appreciate wanting to get real legal advice). To be continued... hehe


----------



## baldilocks

mchoirmoister said:


> Thanks for the advice so far.
> 
> If it is indeed not possible then 90 days on/90 days off wouldn't be a bad situation either to be honest. It's still the same amount of time in Spain per year.
> 
> I'll contact a legal advisor and see what they say too (not meaning to offend anyone here but I'm sure you'll appreciate wanting to get real legal advice). To be continued... hehe


Save your money. We've all tried to find ways around the rules and they don't work.


----------



## Lynn R

Lynn R said:


> This is an extract from an article in The Guardian today:-
> 
> "As a retired British citizen living in the EU, I’m very worried about both my healthcare provision and UK state pension after Brexit. I’ve heard so many different versions. What is the situation exactly – should I be concerned?
> Susan Templeton, France
> 
> There is a lot of confusion about this: people still have in mind the rules that would have applied in the case of a no-deal exit. The rules for both healthcare and pensions are clearly set out in the withdrawal agreement, a legally binding international treaty.
> 
> 
> If you have an S1 reciprocal healthcare form (mainly applies to UK pensioners settled in the EU before 31 December), the UK will continue to meet the healthcare costs of you and your family as long as you remain legally resident in your host country, without time limit.
> 
> An S1 form will also entitle you to a UK EHIC card for treatment when travelling within the EU, and UK law in any case entitles you to free treatment in Britain. Of course, if you are working in your host country and paying into its social security system, you will continue to be covered for healthcare there as before."
> 
> I knew that the Withdrawal Agreement guaranteed that UK pensioners already resident in EU member state would retain their existing rights to healthcare via the S1 form, but I must admit I wasn't aware that existing holders of an S1 form would continue to be entitled to an EHIC card for use when travelling to other EU member states. If this is true I will be very pleased because due to recent health issues I am finding it impossible to obtain travel insurance.


There is some very interesting information in posts #11 and #12 in this thread on the France part of the forum.

https://www.expatforum.com/expats/f...about-pensions-healthcare-after-brexit-2.html

The member posting (thank you Nomoss) has just renewed his EHIC card (he is an S1 holder) and the replacement is valid until 2025. Apparently the EHICs issued to those in receipt of exportable UK benefits (eg a state pension) are now called EHICEs.

This looks as though the information in The Guardian article regarding EHIC(E)s remaining valid for existing S1 holders may well be true. My own EHIC is due to expire in April this year, so I won't have long to wait to find out.


----------



## paulhe

mchoirmoister said:


> I don't really necessarily agree with that interpretation. Once you register you're indicating that you intend to stay in Spain for more than 3 months (this is a requirement by Spain). If you spend more than 183 days in the UK then you are entitled to get a proof of residency certificate from HMRC which would be sufficient proof to the Spanish authorities that you are a tax resident of the UK.
> 
> In my situation I won't be eligible to claim free healthcare and will be paying for private health insurance. I'm not actually planning to make Spain my place of permanent residence and instead intend to spend longer than 3 months there (between 3 and 6 months) whilst renting a property.


Then you are resident but not domiciled in Spain, a concept that is understood in UK through the principles of common law and that may not be understood in Spanish law.

No statutory definition of domicile exists. Domicile is a legal concept and can be broadly defined as a person’s natural home. Every individual is born with a domicile of origin. It is possible for a person to lose their domicile of origin and acquire a domicile of choice. Likewise it is possible for an individual to lose their domicile of choice and revive their domicile of origin.

Domicile will only change if there is an intention to live on a permanent basis in another country. You might also consider 'ordinary residence' and the important case of shar (Shah v London Borough of Barnet (1983) 1 All ER 226)

If not for Spain these concepts are important for UK and your continued access to education and health services there as well as in time to other local authority services (or disability services access) see here for health -https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/736849/Ordinary_residence_tool.pdf

and recent case on disability and ordinary residence see for other circumstances where this is important to uK -https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/252864/OR_Guidance_2013-10-01_Revised__with_new_contact_details_New_DH_template.pdf

Why is this important ? Because while I agree if someone moves to Spain to live with the intention of obtaining the benefit of doing so through the transition arrangements (and so then can live in Eu) it would be a fiction to only actually reside in Spain for a period of time and otherwise live in UK, quite apart from arguments about paying tax in Spain , that would not be considered reasonable in terms of the allowance that such person have under the agreement to leave Spain for periods (namely that a person may have to visit the uK to see or care for elderly relatives for example or for emergencies or indeed for short holidays) and therefore would not be ' legal' (I say 'legal' because it would be open to interpretation).

The UK authorities would also be interested in such a scenario and apply the tests above to deny access to health and education (tertiary certainly), disability services and other services.

on the other hand if a person has a holiday home and wishes to take advantage of the 90 days in 180 rule then really he or she is not required (nor entitled?) to sign the padron as a resident, and he or she could easily establish domicile and ordinary residence in UK. this would be correct notwithstanding they had signed as a resident in Spain previously but had not 'withdrawn' their residence status . Surely?

If you wish to spend more than 90 days in those circumstances as set out by you above then, for the period until the transition arrangements end, you can do so because of freedom of movement in Eu and, again , if your intention is as above you would be domiciled and ' ordinarily' resident in uK. After the transition, however, you would only be able to stay 90/180. 

edit - I meant resindencia rather than 'padron ' 

Paul


----------



## Terence-Paul

*Residency post Brexit 31st Jan.2020*

A friend of mine and his partner is planning on moving to Spain and applying for residency.
Anybody have any idea if this is possible to let me know how much a month or year the main person or joint couple need to show to apply? Things may have changed now we have past the 31st January 2020 of course.


----------



## xabiaxica

Terence-Paul said:


> A friend of mine and his partner is planning on moving to Spain and applying for residency.
> Anybody have any idea if this is possible to let me know how much a month or year the main person or joint couple need to show to apply? Things may have changed now we have past the 31st January 2020 of course.


Until the end of the transition/implementaion period, they will be able to register under EU requirements.


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## Joppa

Last time I checked, the income requirement was 430 euro per month per person (after tax and deductions). If you are married (including same-sex union) and can provide translated and apostilled marriage certificate, the requirement is 560 euro per month per couple. Civil partnership or just cohabiting doesn't count, in which case you need 860 euro between you.


----------



## xabiaxica

Joppa said:


> Last time I checked, the income requirement was 430 euro per month per person (after tax and deductions). If you are married (including same-sex union) and can provide translated and apostilled marriage certificate, the requirement is 560 euro per month per couple. Civil partnership or just cohabiting doesn't count, in which case you need 860 euro between you.


You must have checked a *VERY * long time ago! Edit: Pre 2004... IPREM was 460.50€ a month in 2004


It's an annual income of 100% of IPREM for the first applicant. There's no official figure for subsequent members of the same family, but many extranjerías expect 100% IPREM for each family member.

I know someone who has an appt in Alicante within the next week or so. He has been told that he & his wife need 1200€ per month between them. 

IPREM at the moment stands at 6454.08€ in 12 payments of 537.84€


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## Joppa

My figures came from Extranjeros in Nerja dated Sept 2019 about the requirements at Torre del Mar national police station.


----------



## xabiaxica

Joppa said:


> My figures came from Extranjeros in Nerja dated Sept 2019 about the requirements at Torre del Mar national police station.


Different extranjerías will ask for slightly different figures, but that one is far off the usual.

Can you provide a link?

Are you planning to move here now?


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## Joppa

Can't because the figures were taken from printed handouts given out to inquirers.
Yes, moving to Eastern Costa del Sol by the end of the year after many years of dithering.


----------



## xabiaxica

*Driving licences*

Conducir tras el Brexit


It confirms that holders of UK issued Licences WILL have to take a test after the end of the withdrawal agreement, unless they have changed to a Spanish one by then.


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## kaipa

So anyone who wishes to reside in spain after next year will need to do a Spanish driving test. And I presume that means doing the practical in Spanish.? Sounds fun!


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## Juan C

Whilst that is of course correct now, it would be a very simple administrative procedure for spain, and probably all EU countries, to make the exchange possible again

A couple of years ago they did that with licences issued in the Philippines. The only proviso, just as with all EU Countries, is that one must have held the licence BEFORE moving to spain.

My wife exchanged hers under that ‘new’ arrangement, which had not existed when she first moved to spain, with a philippines DL, in 2006. So now she has a full spanish licence.


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## Barriej

Spain has a licence exchange programme with quite a few countries. If the Uk wants it could negotiate the same during the withdrawal period (in fact it could do so with the whole of the UK if it so wanted. And as long as the EU wants the same)

Link below for the full list.

https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/spain/transport/driving-licences/non-eu-licence


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## jakethepeg

So let us assume that I have jumped through the hoops, ticked all the boxes, jumped over the hurdles, pressed my nose to the grindstone , kept my shoulder to the wheel, kept a straight bat on a sticky wicket and got all my ducks in a row and am now legally resident in Spain. Hoorah! Come 2021. We have grandchildren in the UK, France, South Africa and Australia. (True story bro) We also run a charity providing HIV/Aids education and support in Southern African, which we are still very involved with. Do we need to spend at least 183 days per year in Spain to retain residency?Our comings and goings from the Schengen area will obviously be recorded, although not within Schengen, ie France. Any thoughts on the matter, or better still, Knowledge


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## Juan C

Jake this should help
https://www.lexidy.com/how-much-tim...out-losing-spanish-permanent-residency-guide/


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## Joppa

Current rule is you lose your residency if you have been away for 2 years. This and many other issues will be subject to negotiation between UK and EU during this year so it can change. As for providing evidence, it has been the case that you need to show evidence that you haven't been away for 2 years, such as rental agreement, children's enrolment at local schools, travel tickets, employment contract, payment of Spanish taxes etc, instead of the authorities proving you have been away. 
Juan's reference is for current third country nationals who need a visa to stay in Spain longer than 90 days. A new agreement may be reached covering British citizens after the implementation period.


----------



## Nomoss

A day or two ago someone on BBC TV was interviewing British residents in Spain about their feelings regarding Brexit.

Two or three of these joined in complaining that they would now be taxed 25% on their pensions. This interview and/or the statement were repeated on a news bulletin some time later, but I have not heard it since.

Is there any foundation to this story?

I thought perhaps they referred to UK government pensions which are currently taxed in the UK. These are not taxed in France, and possibly not in Spain?


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## Juan C

U.K. government employee pensions (crown pensions) are not taxed in spain, but they are ‘taken into consideration’. In my case that results in all other income, worldwide, (U.K. OAP, bank interest, premium bond winnings etc) is taxed starting at 29% from the first euro. That is, there is no tax free allowance.


----------



## Lynn R

Nomoss said:


> A day or two ago someone on BBC TV was interviewing British residents in Spain about their feelings regarding Brexit.
> 
> Two or three of these joined in complaining that they would now be taxed 25% on their pensions. This interview and/or the statement were repeated on a news bulletin some time later, but I have not heard it since.
> 
> Is there any foundation to this story?
> 
> I thought perhaps they referred to UK government pensions which are currently taxed in the UK. These are not taxed in France, and possibly not in Spain?


There are no changes to the taxation of pension income in Spain as a result of Brexit. Possibly the complainers were among those who have never declared their income for tax in Spain and fear that they will have to start.


----------



## Glynb

Love Karma said:


> Not according to Malaga Trafico
> 
> As of this afternoon DGT (Trafico) are still saying you must register your intent to exchange British driving licence* before 31 January *and you then have 9 months from Brexit day to follow up and complete the exchange or face the possibility of having to take a Spanish Driving Test


Our Gestor managed to get my application to exchange driving licence in before the January 31st date, so I'm alright Jack, as long as I complete the process within 9 months. Going for my compulsory medical later this week, but I understand that's more or less a formality.

The import of our UK car is now completed, I riveted the new Spanish plates on today  It cost us about 1500 euros (including switching over the headlamps and fog lamp), taxes, gestor fees, etc. But the alternative would have been to travel back to the UK with the car and get little for it, then have to spend a few thousand on a Spanish car.

Next worry will be taxes...but with no requirement to start paying Spanish income tax until April 2021, I can now relax a bit and enjoy the sunshine 

Since the original panic over the licence, I've heard the Spanish are now allowing more time to exchange licences during this year's Brexit 'transition' period. This will assist my wife, who can't get her residencia appointment until Fabruary due to her German nationality.

Anyway, thanks to those who've responded.


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## kaipa

If you have started your licence exchange then you must be a resident so not entirely sure why you dont intend to start paying tax for another 14 months!! Once resident you are formally required to submit a tax declaration this June.


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## Glynb

kaipa said:


> If you have started your licence exchange then you must be a resident so not entirely sure why you dont intend to start paying tax for another 14 months!! Once resident you are formally required to submit a tax declaration this June.


I was surprised that I didn't need to worry about it for now. We checked with a local Gestor office that deals with taxes. 

They said I wasn't liable for 2019/20 tax as I'd only just become a resident this January [2020]. But I would be liable for 2020/21 tax year. So no need for action on my part at the moment as I won't be declaring '20/'21 until 2021.


----------



## Pipeman

I'd get that checked again if I was you. Although you "pay" no tax in 2020, you will be due to pay tax in 2021 for income earned in 2020. 

Spain taxes are due retrospectively for the previous year.


----------



## Glynb

Pipeman said:


> I'd get that checked again if I was you. Although you "pay" no tax in 2020, you will be due to pay tax in 2021 for income earned in 2020.
> 
> Spain taxes are due retrospectively for the previous year.


Yes we're on the same sheet. I now owe tax from February 2020, but I won't actually pay it until 2021 when I complete the tax return (for 2020) - always in arrears.


----------



## xabiaxica

Glynb said:


> I was surprised that I didn't need to worry about it for now. We checked with a local Gestor office that deals with taxes.
> 
> They said I wasn't liable for 2019/20 tax as I'd only just become a resident this January [2020]. But I would be liable for 2020/21 tax year. So no need for action on my part at the moment as I won't be declaring '20/'21 until 2021.


Wow - you certainly hit the ground running! That car rematriculation was managed really swiftly!


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## Glynb

xabiaxica said:


> Wow - you certainly hit the ground running! That car rematriculation was managed really swiftly!


Well it cost us! I can't take any credit. Good gestors don't come cheep 

It's a ducks in a row thing. 

Because of Brexit uncertainty (threat of no deal etc) I needed to ensure I could come freely to Spain and stay here longer than three months at a time. That meant obtaining Residencia a bit earlier than I'd planned to do initially. 

Once you have Residencia in the bag you have to get the driving licence switched and you also can't drive a foreign registered car here, so the car had to be either got rid of or oficially imported with Spanish plates. 

One thing leads to another...

I don't mind doing any of this, after all I'm an immigrant/guest and want to abide by the laws of my host Country...what we could have done without is the rush/stress due to Brexit uncertainty. Anyway, all done now.


----------



## Marieannem

Im hoping to move to Spain very soon from the UK - is there any good resources to run me through everything I need to do beforehand?


----------



## Marieannem

Marieannem said:


> Im hoping to move to Spain very soon from the UK - is there any good resources to run me through everything I need to do beforehand?



Also planning on taking my dog


----------



## Alcalaina

Marieannem said:


> Also planning on taking my dog


Everything you need to know is on the British Embassy website. 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-spain

Dog will need a pet passport, your vet will advise.


----------



## 95995

Just to repeat, British citizens who do not have another EU nationality, are *not *currently EU citizens, they are British citizens with certain special rights (as defined in the Withdrawal Agreement) until the end of December this year. Rights include moving to and working in the EU and taking up residence in the EU.


----------



## Williams2

Overandout said:


> In general terms the law allows EU citizens to access public positions, but after December the British will not be EU citizens of course...
> 
> The Spanish courts can restrict some public positions to Spanish nationals only via a special judicial process which has been successfully applied to several public professions, mainly judges, police, and other justice and security related positions. No health care positions are restricted under current laws.


But what about those British citizens who have been resident and legally working in Spain ( before Brexit )
and hope to remain resident and continue to legally work in Spain after the transition period ends on 
the 31st December - barring those jobs reserved for Spanish citizens ( national security and certain health 
related jobs ) you pointed out above. 

What happens to the same British Expat / Immigrant resident, if he or she either wants to apply
for a better job in Spain or he or she is made redundant and has to look for another job in Spain.
Will the British Expat / Immigrant resident ( who's been permanently living in Spain before Brexit ) 
& in permanent emploiyment be treated, the same as if he or she was a Spanish citizen looking 
for work and therefore can compete in the Spanish jobs market in Spain on an equal footing ;
the same as if he or she was a Spanish citizen or still an EU citizen ( but without the freedom of
movement outside Spain of course )

Of course it must be worst for those Brits who are on temporary employment contracts in
Spain, as they must be dreading the end of the transition period. Any renewals of contract
might stop after the 31st December 2020.

So have they had it ? and might as well pack their bags and look for work in the UK because
their right to work in Spain only lasted as long as their current job in Spain lasted, after that
they've had it.



Therefore in this situation the British immigrants inherited and acquired rights start falling short
of expectations.


----------



## Joppa

Once you successfully register as resident, even if you arrive on 31st December this year, your right to residence, work and pension is preserved for the rest of your life provided you remain resident in Spain. So even if you lose your work before 31st December, provided you are registered as resident, you can continue to look for work and compete on an equal footing in the job market. If you haven't yet made the move, you have just under 11 months in which to do so, and if you are under state retirement age (65 currently for UK for both man and woman), you need private health insurance and meet the income requirement, either through a job, self-employment or assets.


----------



## xabiaxica

Williams2 said:


> But what about those British citizens who have been resident and legally working in Spain ( before Brexit )
> and hope to remain resident and continue to legally work in Spain after the transition period ends on
> the 31st December - barring those jobs reserved for Spanish citizens ( national security and certain health
> related jobs ) you pointed out above.
> 
> What happens to the same British Expat / Immigrant resident, if he or she either wants to apply
> for a better job in Spain or he or she is made redundant and has to look for another job in Spain.
> Will the British Expat / Immigrant resident ( who's been permanently living in Spain before Brexit )
> & in permanent emploiyment be treated, the same as if he or she was a Spanish citizen looking
> for work and therefore can compete in the Spanish jobs market in Spain on an equal footing ;
> the same as if he or she was a Spanish citizen or still an EU citizen ( but without the freedom of
> movement outside Spain of course )
> 
> Of course it must be worst for those Brits who are on temporary employment contracts in
> Spain, as they must be dreading the end of the transition period. Any renewals of contract
> might stop after the 31st December 2020.
> 
> So have they had it ? and might as well pack their bags and look for work in the UK because
> their right to work in Spain only lasted as long as their current job in Spain lasted, after that
> they've had it.
> 
> 
> 
> Therefore in this situation the British immigrants inherited and acquired rights start falling short
> of expectations.


My understanding is that we retain our rights for as long as we remain resident. The Moncloa site suggets that the TIE issued will be one that shows our right to work, so changing jobs shouldn't be an issue.

I'm sure that we can expect some companies to simply assume that we have lost the right to work - just as they did immediately following the referendum. Which is where the TIE will come in useful.


----------



## Overandout

xabiaxica said:


> My understanding is that we retain our rights for as long as we remain resident. The Moncloa site suggets that the TIE issued will be one that shows our right to work, so changing jobs shouldn't be an issue.
> 
> I'm sure that we can expect some companies to simply assume that we have lost the right to work - just as they did immediately following the referendum. Which is where the TIE will come in useful.


I think Williams' question was (a good one), what happens to British citizens currently working in public positions due to their EU citizenship status.

Obviously, for an British citizen in Spain before 31/12/20 "work" in general terms is not an issue as we are protected from 3rd country status and the requirement for work permits and visas. But does the WA confer "EU Citizen status" for the effect of taking or maintaining a public employment position? 
Honestly I have no idea, but I would be surprised if I could take oposiciones and enter a public position after 31st December this year. By the same token I'd be surprised if on 1st January all British publicworkers in Spain are automatically jobless....
Not sure if we have any British citizens on the forum who work in public office in Spain?


----------



## Williams2

xabiaxica said:


> My understanding is that we retain our rights for as long as we remain resident. The Moncloa site suggets that the TIE issued will be one that shows our right to work, so changing jobs shouldn't be an issue.
> 
> I'm sure that we can expect some companies to simply assume that we have lost the right to work - just as they did immediately following the referendum. Which is where the TIE will come in useful.


I hope your right and that those who change jobs or lose their current job ( whether it be a permanent
or temporary contract ) in Spain, can rest assured that they will be treated same from the 1st January 2021,
as they did when they were counted as resident ( with a right to work ) EU citizens.

The trouble is when push comes to shove, employers have a tendency to catagorise applicants
under one bracket when they go through the initial CV sifting stage - namely he or she is a 
British Non EU citizen and therefore not considered; without bothering to go into the finer details
of whether the British citizen has been a permanent resident with the right to work in Spain,
after Britain leaves the EU. What some call sods law in the UK.

Maybe the British applicant can circumvent the first stage CV sifting elimination stage by including a
colour photocopy of their TIE ( in their CV ) with right of resident and right of work embossed on it
and perhaps countersigned by a Notary to say that this is a true copy of the original for good measure.

Anyway time will tell and we will see how this works out in practice.


----------



## Overandout

We can't expect Spanish employers to go out of their way to find out the status of each British applicant fo an open position. Our position now is, sadly, probably one of "too much hassle".

Believe it or not, my HR department called me last Thursday and asked me "after tomorrow, is there going to be any problem with your employment contract? Do you have to have a work permit or send us any other paperwork?"

I work for a multinational with tens of thousands of employees around the world, and they have absolutely no idea of how Brexit has affected British workers in the EU.

As job candidates in Spain, believe me, we are best avoided!!


----------



## Joppa

Surely we should have recourse to the equivalent of employment tribunal over any future dispute over our employment rights from 1st January 2021?


----------



## kaipa

I have concern over my childs rights. At the moment he is 13 and attends a Spanish state school. However, what happens after/ if he finishes Bachelerato. His access to university will then be determined by his status as a non EU student. Clearly that will affect fees. Plus he will not be able to enter any public career such as a Teacher, Healtcare worker etc. On top of that if he returns to uk his Bacherlerato is no longer recognised under EU standards ( if UK plays hardball) and he cannot attent any HE/FE courses as a home student until he has resided in UK for 3 years. So , I would personally like to thank David Cameron, Boris Johnson and the Tory party for making their problem ours and also wish good luck to the people of Northern England when they realise bottom of the pile they are and bottom of the pile they will remain!!


----------



## Joppa

Those, and many other things, are subject to negotiation with EU/individual state during the implementation period. Hope if negotiation doesn't go well, the government should realise the problem and extend the period.


----------



## Overandout

Joppa said:


> Surely we should have recourse to the equivalent of employment tribunal over any future dispute over our employment rights from 1st January 2021?


Not sure what this is aimed at, but assuming it is my last post saying that the British are at a disadvantage in the EU labour markets, what are you going to present as a case to the tribunal? Employer X didn't call me for an interview because I'm British and he can't work out if I have the right to work in Spain or not?


----------



## Overandout

kaipa said:


> I have concern over my childs rights. At the moment he is 13 and attends a Spanish state school. However, what happens after/ if he finishes Bachelerato. His access to university will then be determined by his status as a non EU student. Clearly that will affect fees. Plus he will not be able to enter any public career such as a Teacher, Healtcare worker etc. On top of that if he returns to uk his Bacherlerato is no longer recognised under EU standards ( if UK plays hardball) and he cannot attent any HE/FE courses as a home student until he has resided in UK for 3 years. So , I would personally like to thank David Cameron, Boris Johnson and the Tory party for making their problem ours and also wish good luck to the people of Northern England when they realise bottom of the pile they are and bottom of the pile they will remain!!


We are planning to get Spanish citizenship for our children for exactly these reasons. It's the easiest way to guarantee their rights.


----------



## xabiaxica

Overandout said:


> We are planning to get Spanish citizenship for our children for exactly these reasons. It's the easiest way to guarantee their rights.


My now adult children will be too, in order to retain their right to live & work in the EU27! 

They've grown up knowing that they have this right, & that's how they have planned their futures.


----------



## Joppa

I think under the Withdrawal Agreement, British citizens can only vote and stand in local elections.


----------



## baldilocks

Of more concern are pension rights. Under the EU Pension Regulations, when one reaches retirement age, one applies to the pension authorities in the country in which one last worked which, for SWMBO will be Spain. Now she will also have a full UK OAP pension entitlement and will have a certain amount of pension due from her employment in Spain. Will the current system continue, i.e. she applies to the Spanish authorities and they contact UK and she will then receive a pension based on her entitlements in both Spain and UK or what???? Anyone have any ideas?


----------



## 95995

Joppa said:


> I think under the Withdrawal Agreement, British citizens can only vote and stand in local elections.


Well, if you can find that in the WA! I can assure you it is not included, not least because local government elections in France are due in March and Brits (without another EU or French nationality) are already being advised that they are unable to vote.


----------



## 95995

baldilocks said:


> Of more concern are pension rights. Under the EU Pension Regulations, when one reaches retirement age, one applies to the pension authorities in the country in which one last worked which, for SWMBO will be Spain. Now she will also have a full UK OAP pension entitlement and will have a certain amount of pension due from her employment in Spain. Will the current system continue, i.e. she applies to the Spanish authorities and they contact UK and she will then receive a pension based on her entitlements in both Spain and UK or what???? Anyone have any ideas?


I would expect she will have to apply to the UK separately, as is the case for others from non-EU countries. In France, years worked elsewhere are counted towards entitlement to a French pension, not the amount, just the fact that currently you have to have worked for a certain number of years (though I have absolutely no idea how things will work should the French govt force through the massive changes to the pension system here).


----------



## Joppa

EverHopeful said:


> Well, if you can find that in the WA! I can assure you it is not included, not least because local government elections in France are due in March and Brits (without another EU or French nationality) are already being advised that they are unable to vote.


In Spain you can, provided you are on Padron. 
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-...le&utm_content=eu_exit&utm_term=brexit#voting


----------



## baldilocks

Joppa said:


> In Spain you can, provided you are on Padron.***
> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-...le&utm_content=eu_exit&utm_term=brexit#voting


****and* declare your intention to vote, just being on the Padron is not enough - that just enables the local authority to claim money for you from central government coffers.


----------



## xabiaxica

13 'opinion' posts now moved to https://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/1493150-ongoing-brexit-saga-opinions.html


----------



## xabiaxica

Joppa said:


> In Spain you can, provided you are on Padron.
> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-...le&utm_content=eu_exit&utm_term=brexit#voting


Which hardly matters, since the local elections were last year. We won't be able to vote next time.



baldilocks said:


> ****and* declare your intention to vote, just being on the Padron is not enough - that just enables the local authority to claim money for you from central government coffers.



And yes, exactly. Some towns will assume that you wish to to vote, but in my & many/most others you also have to declare your intention & register to vote. 



The long-standing President of our local PSOE, a Scot, is now an 'Honorary President'. As a non-EU citizen he can no longer be the 'actual' president.


----------



## Juan C

baldilocks said:


> ****and* declare your intention to vote, just being on the Padron is not enough - that just enables the local authority to claim money for you from central government coffers.



That of course *only applies to EU national*s. 

My wife a non UE national. She has been legally resident in Spain 14 years, on the padrón etc. She has no right to vote whatsoever.

Thus I assume UK (NON EU nationals) will not have any voting rights, unless there is something special negotiated in the leaving agreement.


----------



## 95995

xabiaxica said:


> Which hardly matters, since the local elections were last year. We won't be able to vote next time.


But does it even have anything to do with Brexit, given voting rights in the EU do not form part of the Withdrawal Agreement?


----------



## 95995

EverHopeful said:


> But does it even have anything to do with Brexit, given voting rights in the EU do not form part of the Withdrawal Agreement?


Or is it just a special arrangement outside the WA put in place by Spain for British citizens?


----------



## xabiaxica

Juan C said:


> That of course *only applies to EU national*s.
> 
> My wife a non UE national. She has been legally resident in Spain 14 years, on the padrón etc. She has no right to vote whatsoever.
> 
> Thus I assume UK (NON EU nationals) will not have any voting rights, unless there is something special negotiated in the leaving agreement.


True. 

There are a couple of non-EU countries whose citizens can vote in local elections, but only a couple.


----------



## xabiaxica

EverHopeful said:


> Or is it just a special arrangement outside the WA put in place by Spain for British citizens?


Could be - but as I said, irrelevant in the scheme of things since there won't be any local elections during that time, barring a death or resignation of a mayor.


----------



## Alcalaina

EverHopeful said:


> Or is it just a special arrangement outside the WA put in place by Spain for British citizens?


Yes, that's correct. If you have been resident in Spain for more than three years you will still be able to participate in municipal elections after the end of the transition period.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/expat-voting-rights-treaty-secured-with-spain



> The treaty signed by Robin Walker MP and Minister Marco Aguiriano, today (21 January 2019) means that British citizens living in Spain and Spanish citizens in the UK can continue to participate in local elections in the future.The treaty signed by Robin Walker MP and Minister Marco Aguiriano, today (21 January 2019) means that British citizens living in Spain and Spanish citizens in the UK can continue to participate in local elections in the future.
> 
> The treaty contains transitional provisions, ensuring that UK nationals who are registered to vote in the upcoming local elections in Spain this May, will continue to be able to do so in any Brexit scenario. Guidance on how to ensure you are registered can be found on the Spanish government website.
> 
> *In future, UK nationals will need to have resided in Spain for three years to exercise their rights under this treaty*. The criteria of Spanish nationals to vote in local elections in the UK will remain the same.


----------



## xabiaxica

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, that's correct. If you have been resident in Spain for more than three years you will still be able to participate in municipal elections after the end of the transition period.
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/expat-voting-rights-treaty-secured-with-spain


Ooh I missed that! 

That's good news then! 

At least I & my daughters have a vote at least somewhere in the world!


----------



## Juan C

The quote includes “The treaty contains provisional arrangements for the transitional period.” 

Being acquainted with the wording of U.K. laws, i would point out, it seems likely therefore that applies only for the transition period


----------



## Alcalaina

Juan C said:


> The quote includes “The treaty contains provisional arrangements for the transitional period.”
> 
> Being acquainted with the wording of U.K. laws, i would point out, it seems likely therefore that applies only for the transition period


This was signed a year ago. The "provisional arrangements" were to cover the local elections in May 2019, when the three-year residency rule didn't apply.


----------



## 95995

Juan C said:


> The quote includes “The treaty contains provisional arrangements for the transitional period.”
> 
> Being acquainted with the wording of U.K. laws, i would point out, it seems likely therefore that applies only for the transition period


Well, this is what it says in the link:



> The treaty contains transitional provisions, ensuring that UK nationals who are registered to vote in the upcoming local elections in Spain this May, *will continue to be able to do so in any Brexit scenario. *Guidance on how to ensure you are registered can be found on the Spanish government website.
> *In future, UK nationals will need to have resided in Spain for three years to exercise their rights under this treaty.* The criteria of Spanish nationals to vote in local elections in the UK will remain the same.


----------



## Juan C

Ever hopeful 

If it will apply regardless then “ The treaty contains transitional provisions,” would have been unnecessary. That it is there might mean it is what it says, that is that it relates only to “the translational period.”


----------



## 95995

Juan C said:


> Ever hopeful
> 
> If it will apply regardless then “ The treaty contains transitional provisions,” would have been unnecessary. That it is there might mean it is what it says, that is that it relates only to “the translational period.”


Well, you are more than free to take the view you want to 

Perhaps you would care to do a little more research and share the results on the forum? Or perhaps not.


----------



## Juan C

EverHopeful said:


> Well, you are more than free to take the view you want to
> 
> Perhaps you would care to do a little more research and share the results on the forum? Or perhaps not.



I think maybe you did not notice I posted "Being acquainted with the wording of U.K. laws, i would point out, it seems likely therefore that applies only for the transition period"

For most of my working life I was required to understand UK law, it´s meaning, interpretation and implementation. It was with that background I expressed my opinion. Of course there are occasions in law when one professional may disagree with another. 

However, it is not usual for UK laws to add/use words which do not have significant meaning to that law. If a word is used then one would consider it was intended to qualify the intended meaning of the architects of that law. 

In the case here, it would be reasonable to assume the intention was to convey that the law would be restricted by a period of time/an event, i.e. the end of the period of transition.


PS In the context of my post, my references to laws also include legal agreements


----------



## 95995

Juan C said:


> I think maybe you did not notice I posted "Being acquainted with the wording of U.K. laws, i would point out, it seems likely therefore that applies only for the transition period"
> 
> For most of my working life I was required to understand UK law, it´s meaning, interpretation and implementation. It was with that background I expressed my opinion. Of course there are occasions in law when one professional may disagree with another.
> 
> However, it is not usual for UK laws to add/use words which do not have significant meaning to that law. If a word is used then one would consider it was intended to qualify the intended meaning of the architects of that law.
> 
> In the case here, it would be reasonable to assume the intention was to convey that the law would be restricted by a period of time/an event, i.e. the end of the period of transition.
> 
> 
> PS In the context of my post, my references to laws also include legal agreements


But surely a treaty between two nations would have to comply either with the laws of both countries or with international law, it is after all an international treaty, not something applying merely to the UK.


----------



## Juan C

EverHopeful said:


> But surely a treaty between two nations would have to comply either with the laws of both countries or with international law, it is after all an international treaty, not something applying merely to the UK.


Exactly. That is what it says here:-


https://www.gov.uk/government/news/expat-voting-rights-treaty-secured-with-spain

“The treaty signed by Robin Walker MP and Minister Marco Aguiriano, today (21 January 2019) means that British citizens living in Spain and Spanish citizens in the UK can continue to participate in local elections in the future.”

Note particularly this part:- “The treaty contains transitional provisions ........ “

This appears to unambiguously show it is provisional not a forever situation. “transitional provisions”. 

However, if with your legal training you take a different view, that’s fine.


----------



## Tigerlillie

Juan C said:


> Exactly. That is what it says here:-
> 
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/government/news/expat-voting-rights-treaty-secured-with-spain
> 
> “The treaty signed by Robin Walker MP and Minister Marco Aguiriano, today (21 January 2019)* means that British citizens living in Spain and Spanish citizens in the UK can continue to participate in local elections in the future.”
> *
> Note particularly this part:- “The treaty contains transitional provisions ........ “
> 
> This appears to unambiguously show it is provisional not a forever situation. “transitional provisions”


I would interpret the 'transitional provisions' to be for those who are already registered to vote or who wish to and who may not have the 3 years residency required after the transition period has ended.

What do you think the word 'future' means?


----------



## baldilocks

Tigerlillie said:


> What do you think the word 'future' means?


Only time will tell...


----------



## 95995

Tigerlillie said:


> I would interpret the 'transitional provisions' to be for those who are already registered to vote or who wish to and who may not have the 3 years residency required after the transition period has ended.
> 
> What do you think the word 'future' means?


Yes, I totally agree TL. Spain has sought to preserve the rights of all Brit expats before, during and after the transition period. The UK OTOH has not been so generous.

But, hey, there will always be doubting Thomases and those prepared to spread anxiety even if for no good reason.


----------



## Alcalaina

This is pretty unambiguous re future voting in municipal elections.



> In order to exercise these rights, Spain will require that British citizens have lived in the country for at least three years *(in the case of future elections, not in 2019)*, and that they are registered on the Electoral Census of Foreigners Resident in Spain by January 30.


From El Pais just after the decree was passed - https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2019/01/21/inenglish/1548076327_501658.html


----------



## foggie

A Brexit drivers licence question. I understand one surrenders the UK licence as only one EU country licence can be held.

So after the transition and we are fully out, if flying back to UK for a few months each year and keeping a UK reg., car what's the situation? A UK licence would have a cost advantage insurance wise. Anyone researched this yet?


----------



## Williams2

foggie said:


> A Brexit drivers licence question. I understand one surrenders the UK licence as only one EU country licence can be held.
> 
> So after the transition and we are fully out, if flying back to UK for a few months each year and keeping a UK reg., car what's the situation? A UK licence would have a cost advantage insurance wise. Anyone researched this yet?


The answer to your question depends on which country UK or Spain your registered 
as permanently resident. As it can be illegal to be permanently resident in two
countries.
It's also illegal to continue driving a UK registered car in Spain if your permanently
resident here.

Therefore as you have retained your UK reg car, I can only assumed that you have
already made your mind up, that you want to remain a permanent resident in
the UK and not in Spain. So you only intend to be visiting Spain for long stay
vacations or whatever both now and after the transition period.

So the answers simple, you must retain your UK driving license as you 
cannot exchange it for a Spanish EU license while you remain a permanent
resident of the UK.


----------



## foggie

Resident in EU country, if Spain have Spanish car + Spanish licence. This as required while UK is an EU country

Retain UK property and keep UK car in UK.

As an engineer do 2 or 3 summer months contract work in UK

However, after Brexit is complete could the UK licence be re-applied for is the question. Anyone here from a non DL exchange rule country kept their original licence and did a Spanish driver's test?


----------



## Joppa

When you return to UK to be resident again, you can re-apply for your UK licence, as details of your test pass etc are kept on file. You will then have to surrender your Spanish licence. This is to stop you using two licences to get around driving bans, points on your licence etc. If you are coming back to UK to work but still retaining your Spanish residence - a sensible move in the post-Brexit situation - you are allowed to drive on your Spanish licence. UK insurance companies don't penalise EU licence as such, provided you have regular UK driving experience.


----------



## Overandout

foggie said:


> Resident in EU country, if Spain have Spanish car + Spanish licence. This as required while UK is an EU country
> 
> Retain UK property and keep UK car in UK.
> 
> As an engineer do 2 or 3 summer months contract work in UK
> 
> However, after Brexit is complete could the UK licence be re-applied for is the question. Anyone here from a non DL exchange rule country kept their original licence and did a Spanish driver's test?


Not exactly what you are asking, but I do still have valid Thai driving licences (two because there is a different license for car and motorbike categories). But I understand that technically they are not legally useable because I am no longer a resident of Thailand.
Which is the same situation as you will be in. Maybe you can "keep" the UK licence document after getting the Spanish one, but if you try to use it in the UK whilst not being resident, it will be illegal.


----------



## kaipa

Yes. Rock and hard place. Another thing we can thank Brexit for. If you have residency in spain you have to have a spanish licence and submit uk licence. If you dont have Spanish licence and have accident and insurance found out they will not cover you.


----------



## kaipa

As the dust settles around Brexit the reality comes into view. Before Brexit us Brits could fairly easily come and go as we pleased with very little problems. Slowly we are beginning to see how those freedoms were taken for granted. We will no longer have european licences nor passports. We simply need to accept that our horizons have altered. You live in one country not two


----------



## foggie

Overandout said:


> UK licence document after getting the Spanish one, but if you try to use it in the UK whilst not being resident, it will be illegal.


I have had several conflicting answers to this question.

At this time I have a UK licence for all of EU. I have a Jamaican licence for if I work within CARICOM. I can use this to hire a car or drive a works vehicle in the UK and it is legal to hold.

I agree, I cannot hold 2x EU licences you surrender the UK to hold any other EU country licence.

I can use either my EU or CARICOM licence to hire a car in the USA without being a resident.

This seems not to be so easy to understand


----------



## jakethepeg

What happens when a UK citizen resident in Spain wishes to visit another country not contiguous with the Schengen area. Must they leave via a Spanish border, ie seaport or airport, or will it be possible for instance to drive through France and leave via Calais. Their passport will show that they have been in the Schengen area more than the 90 days it is being mooted will be the maximum allowed in one go, so will showing the Spanish resident permit suffice??Or is it still a case, as Donald Rumsfield so sagely put it

"*The message is that there are no "knowns." There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. These are things we do not know we don't know.*"


----------



## Overandout

foggie said:


> I have had several conflicting answers to this question.
> 
> At this time I have a UK licence for all of EU. I have a Jamaican licence for if I work within CARICOM. I can use this to hire a car or drive a works vehicle in the UK and it is legal to hold.
> 
> I agree, I cannot hold 2x EU licences you surrender the UK to hold any other EU country licence.
> 
> I can use either my EU or CARICOM licence to hire a car in the USA without being a resident.
> 
> This seems not to be so easy to understand


I'm surprised that you've had conflicting answers. Most countries, including the UK only make their licenses available to permanent residents. When you are not a resident, your licence is not valid.

Another thing is if you ask what will happen to you if you don't comply... in this case, I agree that it is very unlikely that you will ever be caught out. If you get stopped whilst in the UK driving a UK car in your name on a UK license, how is the policeman going to know that you are a resident of Spain?
Doesn't make it right though.


----------



## Juan C

Jake. Spain is in the Schengen area. Thus whichever Schengen country you enter the area though makes not difference. You will in the area

When non EU nationals who are resident in say Spain return from outside schengen area, via say france, their passport is stamped for Schengen in france. They then travel to spain and are not checked again 

My wife non EU with residence status in spain so I have first hand knowledge


----------



## Juan C

Ops. Just noticed my many typos in last post

Jake. 

Spain is in the Schengen Area. Thus whichever Schengen country one enters the Area via makes no difference. You will be in the Area.

Example: When non EU nationals, who are resident in say Spain, return from outside the schengen area, via say france, their passport is stamped as entering the Schengen Area, in france. They then are able to travel to spain, where they are not checked again. 

My wife is a non EU national with residence status in spain. I therefore have first hand knowledge


----------



## baldilocks

Williams2 said:


> Baldi - don't throw a spanner in the path of budding British Expats and Immigrants after Brexit.
> Best to always look on the bright side of life.


I did that and then came along Bojo and Domcum


----------



## Juan C

I do not want to trivialise this but if free movement for Brits in the EU is restricted, it will be the EU’s rules which cause that not the U.K. 

Nothing dictates to the EU countries on what they wish to do other than the EU. 

PS. Although an Irishman (I cannot afford to live in Ireland) I will be affected by what the U.K. and the EU agree as my health care in Spain is paid for by DWP £4,700 p.a. currently (S1) and all my pension income is U.K. based.


----------



## xabiaxica

Juan C said:


> I do not want to trivialise this but if free movement for Brits in the EU is restricted, it will be the EU’s rules which cause that not the U.K.
> 
> Nothing dictates to the EU countries on what they wish to do other than the EU.
> 
> PS. Although an Irishman (I cannot afford to live in Ireland) I will be affected by what the U.K. and the EU agree as my health care in Spain is paid for by DWP £4,700 p.a. currently (S1) and all my pension income is U.K. based.


It would hav eto be a reciprocal arrangement. 

This is interesting reading. 


https://www.etiasvisa.com/etias-new...nUn7nLG6Fsm2AkrRr2y1DNZqiWsGsL-kb_25DRjngovdA


----------



## Tigerlillie

Juan C said:


> I do not want to trivialise this but* if free movement for Brits in the EU is restricted, it will be the EU’s rules which cause that not the U.K.*
> 
> Nothing dictates to the EU countries on what they wish to do other than the EU.
> 
> PS. Although an Irishman (I cannot afford to live in Ireland) I will be affected by what the U.K. and the EU agree as my health care in Spain is paid for by DWP £4,700 p.a. currently (S1) and all my pension income is U.K. based.


Freedom of movement will not be restricted for Brits because of EU rules, it will be restricted because of brex****.

Don't shift the blame.


----------



## 95995

Tigerlillie said:


> Freedom of movement will not be restricted for Brits because of EU rules, it will be restricted because of brex****.
> 
> Don't shift the blame.


And it's hardly as if the EU initiated Brexit (nor is it in control of UK social security issues).


----------



## Glynb

Juan C said:


> I do not want to trivialise this but if free movement for Brits in the EU is restricted, it will be the EU’s rules which cause that not the U.K.
> 
> Nothing dictates to the EU countries on what they wish to do other than the EU.
> 
> .


The EU is the 27 countries who are members and together agree the rules they can all live with, it is not some external power 'dictating' anything. If the UK is outside, it cannot expect to automatically continue to have the benefits of membership, unless there's a reciprocal agreement covering UK licences this year. One would expect things to carry on as they are, that would be sensible. 

Anyway,to get back to the question... surely the crucial issue is insurance. We need to have the correct driving licence as understood by our insurers (UK or Spain). If you break the law you can expect a fine, you survive. But if we have an accident and seriously injure someone and then only to find out that insurance is invalid due to not having the correct licence, it could be a financial disaster, possibly leading to bankruptcy. I wouldn't take that risk.


----------



## Juan C

“ It would have to be a reciprocal arrangement”

No, with respect, it does not HAVE to be. 

In any agreement one side can always decide to be more generous than the other 

That they decide it must be reciprocal is their choice. 

If I go out with a mate for meals I might expect we take turns in paying, we might even have agreed to do so, but I can always insist I will pay even every time. I am free to make that choice

The same applies to U.K. and the EU. Each side can choose independently how they proceed, it does not HAVE to depend on what the other does.


----------



## kaju

xabiaxica said:


> It would hav eto be a reciprocal arrangement.
> 
> This is interesting reading.
> 
> 
> https://www.etiasvisa.com/etias-new...nUn7nLG6Fsm2AkrRr2y1DNZqiWsGsL-kb_25DRjngovdA


I suspect that just like etiaseurope.eu (which at least has a disclaimer stating it is a private company), that etiasvisa.com is just yet another site hoping to be able to cash in on the new system by getting people to use their site - to lodge an etias request when the system comes into force. 

Most likely for a fee, which they are not admitting yet.


----------



## xabiaxica

Juan C said:


> “ It would have to be a reciprocal arrangement”
> 
> No, with respect, it does not HAVE to be.
> 
> In any agreement one side can always decide to be more generous than the other
> 
> That they decide it must be reciprocal is their choice.
> 
> If I go out with a mate for meals I might expect we take turns in paying, we might even have agreed to do so, but I can always insist I will pay even every time. I am free to make that choice
> 
> The same applies to U.K. and the EU. Each side can choose independently how they proceed, it does not HAVE to depend on what the other does.


TPTB in the EU27 have made it pretty clear that any freedom of movement will have to be reciprocal, & that the UK won't be able to cherry pick the bits it likes & doesn't like.


----------



## Isobella

Strange that you can’t have two driving licences but two passports are allowed


----------



## Isobella

xabiaxica said:


> TPTB in the EU27 have made it pretty clear that any freedom of movement will have to be reciprocal, & that the UK won't be able to cherry pick the bits it likes & doesn't like.


The fact that there are an estimated 2.7 million EU citizens working in UK and 3.6 million 
Living in Uk may bang some heads together when negotiating as it won’t be good for either side.


----------



## 95995

Isobella said:


> The fact that there are an estimated 2.7 million EU citizens working in UK and 3.6 million
> Living in Uk may bang some heads together when negotiating as it won’t be good for either side.


It certainly won't be good for either side, not least because the UK needs a great many of those workers (not to mention that they pay taxes), though perhaps some of them have dual citizenship or permanent residence (? I have no idea, especially since you don't, as usual, provide a link to the figures, let alone how they have been established).


----------



## 95995

Isobella, this is interesting though it relates to the year ended September 2018 https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/


----------



## MataMata

Joppa said:


> When you return to UK to be resident again, you can re-apply for your UK licence, as details of your test pass etc are kept on file. You will then have to surrender your Spanish licence. This is to stop you using two licences to get around driving bans, points.


The rule about not holding two licences is an EU one which after the transition should no longer apply to UK citizens. 

True you should be UK resident to reapply for your licence but there should no longer be any requirement to surrender any EU one you hold.


----------



## Glynb

MataMata said:


> The rule about not holding two licences is an EU one which after the transition should no longer apply to UK citizens.
> 
> True you should be UK resident to reapply for your licence but there should no longer be any requirement to surrender any EU one you hold.


But what if you've already given in your UK licence during the transition period?

Presumably if you have an address in the UK, you could ask DVLA for your UK licence to be reissued, after the transition period ends? May as well hold two?


----------



## MataMata

Glynb said:


> .. surely the crucial issue is insurance. We need to have the correct driving licence as understood by our insurers (UK or Spain).


True but here's a little tidbit to throw into the mix. 

Every UK insurance policy I can recall seeing has had the prerequisite that the insured should 'hold, have held, and not be disqualified from holding' a driving licence which could be read to mean that if you passed your test in UK then you can drive in UK regardless of which licence you physically possess, if any. 

Absent a physical licence then on demand DVLA will issue a 'Letter of Entitlement' listing your details and entitlements and with that, and the joined up technology in UK today, it would be a simple matter for plod to verify your right to be driving.


----------



## foggie

MataMata said:


> The rule about not holding two licences is an EU one which after the transition should no longer apply to UK citizens.
> 
> True you should be UK resident to reapply for your licence............


Here's the thing; reading through the application form for one's first licence it does not ask for residency, only your biometric passport or various other ID and an address. Residency issues come up when looking to exchange UK to both Italian and Spanish licences but that is while the UK is a member.

Advice atm is hurry to get residency before Jan 2021 or pass an It/Sp drivers test after instead.

Important point here! If Brit johnny foreigner passes that test after Brexit and gets licence It/Sp government have no more legal right to tear up the Brit licence than UK has to tear up my Jamaican one surely?


----------



## Isobella

EverHopeful said:


> Isobella, this is interesting though it relates to the year ended September 2018 https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/


Was on TV of people who have settled, “for period Apl-June 2019, latest Labour Force estimates...2.37 million EU nationals WORKING (99,000 more than a year earlier) plus the ones who just live here.

ONS.gov.uk Aug 2019

Actually we were discussing reciprocal driving licences.


----------



## kaipa

Well if you want to pass the spanish licence you will need to brush up your Spanish. Not that many folk here are anywhere near the level of spanish required. And I cant quite see Spain allowing the theory part to continue in English if the UK insist on all immigrants having to do uk licence only in English


----------



## xabiaxica

Isobella said:


> Actually we were discussing reciprocal driving licences.


Actually we're discussing everything to do with the rights of Brits living in Spain now & after the end of the implemantaion period.


----------



## Overandout

foggie said:


> Here's the thing; reading through the application form for one's first licence it does not ask for residency, only your biometric passport or various other ID and an address. Residency issues come up when looking to exchange UK to both Italian and Spanish licences but that is while the UK is a member.


Are you sure?

The form to request your first UK licence is the D1 and section 1a of that form is titled "Residency". 
If you say that you are living in the UK as resident when you are not, by signing that form, you are committing a criminal offence as is stated in the signature section 8 of the same form.


----------



## foggie

I will see if I can find that but online application says:

Before you start
It costs £34 to apply online. You can pay by MasterCard, Visa, Electron or Delta debit or credit card.

You’ll need to provide:

~an identity document unless you have a valid UK biometric passport
~addresses where you’ve lived over the last 3 years
~your National Insurance number if you know it

You’ll get a confirmation email from DVLA after you’ve applied. You might be asked to take part in research by email, but you can opt out.


If a form title says "residency" it is open to interpretation.

I can be 'domiciled' in one place while 'resident' in another but live with my girlfriend at her 'home'

As I own a 'home' in the UK and will have 'lived' for three months this summer plus 5 years before?


----------



## kaipa

I assume that the reason you have to submit your UK licence to get a Spanish one is that you arent allowed to have two licences. So what does it matter if there is a way around it? Presumably its illegal


----------



## foggie

kaipa said:


> I assume that the reason you have to submit your UK licence to get a Spanish one is that you arent allowed to have two licences. So what does it matter if there is a way around it? Presumably its illegal


I have two licences now, it is not illegal.

While an EU member one can only hold one valid EU licence.

the licence part of this thread is about 2021 an UK being outside the EU


----------



## kaipa

But you cant get a uk licence if you dont live in UK. Thd address is your place of permanent residence. Licences can be used as identification in some cases. Either way you are bending the rules. Why doing you just phone DVLA and tell them your plans? Saves all the shadowy interpretations


----------



## kaipa

Sorry are you wanting to live in spain and drive before the end of the transition period?


----------



## foggie

kaipa said:


> But you cant get a uk licence if you dont live in UK. Thd address is your place of permanent residence. Licences can be used as identification in some cases. Either way you are bending the rules. Why doing you just phone DVLA and tell them your plans? Saves all the shadowy interpretations


There is nothing shady about asking genuine questions.

Much opinion in the replies without evidence, that's ok, we are on a forum but I have no rules to bend.

I am asking about a specific situation post Brexit


----------



## snikpoh

kaipa said:


> But you cant get a uk licence if you dont live in UK. Thd address is your place of permanent residence. Licences can be used as identification in some cases. Either way you are bending the rules. Why doing you just phone DVLA and tell them your plans? Saves all the shadowy interpretations


Also, whilst a UK resident, the address on a UK d/l must be your (valid) place of residence in UK


----------



## foggie




----------



## foggie

I have a UK licence at this moment.

I also have a perfectly legal and valid D/L for a country I do not permanently "reside" in


----------



## kaipa

After Brexit we dont know what the rules will be concerning 2 licences. At the moment if you come to spain to live you have to have a Spanish licence . You can do that by exchanging your uk one or you could do a spanish test. But you cant pretend to live in 2 countries for the purposes of having 2 licences. That is where it becomes a bit shady.


----------



## Overandout

I deplore religion and all other mystic mumbo-jumbo, but sometimes you just can't beat a bible quote, so here goes:

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Adios!


----------



## foggie

Overandout said:


> I deplore religion and all other mystic mumbo-jumbo, but sometimes you just can't beat a bible quote, so here goes:
> 
> There are none so blind as those who will not see.
> 
> Adios!


That's very true! there are people who will say "this is illegal" "that is illegal" while offering no explanation, analysis or sound argument but only to see their opinion as fact.


----------



## kaipa

Just phone DVLA. Ask them


----------



## Overandout

foggie said:


> That's very true! there are people who will say "this is illegal" "that is illegal" while offering no explanation, analysis or sound argument but only to see their opinion as fact.


OK then, the residence requirement is contained in Article 97a (Residence Requirement) of the Road Traffic Act 1988.

But I guess you'll be back with some twisted interpretation or opinion on why that doesn't apply...


----------



## baldilocks

foggie said:


> That's very true! there are people who will say "this is illegal" "that is illegal" while offering no explanation, analysis or sound argument but only to see their opinion as fact.


They don't have to offer an explanation - it is the law!


----------



## foggie

kaipa said:


> Just phone DVLA. Ask them


That was my first port of call. Reply was "were you born here, are you British?" yes "well if your ID is valid and it's your home I don't see a problem" ok but after Brexit, if I have an Italian residence? "Oh, I don't know, hang on" ...... "I can't give you definitive answer because we don't know but you can only hold one EU licence at the moment, can't say afterwards. I would just apply next year anyway"

So that was it! 

So someone who has followed the thread from the beginning will see I asked if any non EU person residing now in EU has had licencing issues we may or may not face after Brexit.

I have lost half my income over this Bxt rubbish so I am looking at safeguarding my future like several others on this forum. I don't see that as a bad or shady thing.

I ask questions, that's my nature, I enjoy listening to other's opinions but wouldn't gamble on them. I have just ten and a half months to make life decisions for my own future and having a foothold in Europe for my work is one I have already made but the way of making it work smoothly in the post Bxt world is not yet obvious to me.


----------



## foggie

baldilocks said:


> They don't have to offer an explanation - it is the law!


What?

You ask me "can I grow roses here" and my answer is "it is illegal" That makes it that law?


----------



## foggie

Overandout said:


> OK then, the residence requirement is contained in Article 97a (Residence Requirement) of the Road Traffic Act 1988.
> 
> But I guess you'll be back with some twisted interpretation or opinion on why that doesn't apply...


Well, your guess is completely wrong for a start.

However you are the first person who has provided information I had not seen and presented it to me in a concise and referenced way that I might review it and move forward.

Thank you OandO, this is what I was looking for and is genuinely useful.


----------



## 95995

foggie said:


> Well, your guess is completely wrong for a start.
> 
> However you are the first person who has provided information I had not seen and presented it to me in a concise and referenced way that I might review it and move forward.
> 
> Thank you OandO, this is what I was looking for and is genuinely useful.


I thought your concern was car insurance might cost you in the UK post the transition period if you are resident in Spain and you have a Spanish DL, given your need to spend 3 months there each year for work reasons. This is not the same thing as having a UK DL. If an insurance company considers you have not been honest with them, they can cancel your policy and refuse a claim, irrespective of where your licence was issued. I would have thought the most appropriate thing to do would be to check with insurance companies.


----------



## kaipa

So DVLA has said what was said here. After Brexit who knows.At the moment if you live in UK you use a UK licence. If you live in Spain a Spanish one. But cant have both. If you have a serious accident in UK and present a UK licence you will be committing a crime if you present that as your home address but you actually live in Spain. It's the same thing with health care. Once in spain you cant use the NHS as your registered doctor.


----------



## foggie

EverHopeful said:


> I thought your concern was car insurance might cost you in the UK post the transition period if you are resident in Spain and you have a Spanish DL, given your need to spend 3 months there each year for work reasons. This is not the same thing as having a UK DL. If an insurance company considers you have not been honest with them, they can cancel your policy and refuse a claim, irrespective of where your licence was issued. I would have thought the most appropriate thing to do would be to check with insurance companies.


Thank's for the post but I have no intention to be dishonest with an insurance company. Would someone check this forum without first checking the normal path for answers?

This is one answer: "Unfortunately, it can be difficult for drivers with non-UK licences to find affordable car insurance. Even if you have many years’ experience driving in your own country, holding a foreign licence could still affect your insurance costs."

Insurance cost difference would be minor in my view but is an example of only one point to consider and question.

My question here on licences was one tiny part of a question to myself on how do I surmount the myriad of obstacles that Brexit presents me with. I accept that my tendency to drill down and to fact check answers has caused concern to some here but that was not my intention.


----------



## foggie

kaipa said:


> So DVLA has said what was said here. After Brexit who knows.At the moment if you live in UK you use a UK licence. If you live in Spain a Spanish one. But cant have both. If you have a serious accident in UK and present a UK licence you will be committing a crime if you present that as your home address but you actually live in Spain. It's the same thing with health care. Once in spain you cant use the NHS as your registered doctor.


Thanks for that but it is difficult to logically work through this with "home address" or "living" somewhere.

This concerning spending three months at my UK home address from the NHS:

"Ordinary residence is established if there is a regular habitual mode of life in a particular place "for the time being", "whether of short or long duration", the continuity of which has persisted apart from temporary or occasional absences. The residence must be voluntary and adopted for "a settled purpose".

"A person can be ordinarily resident in more than one country at the same time. This is not the case in respect of domicile"


----------



## kaipa

All I am trying to tell you is you cannot be resident in 2 countries at the same time. Only one place can be your place of residence. You can interpret paragraphs of law as much as you like ,if it makes you feel secure. But the fact remains. If you want to live in spain for more than 3 consecutive months you have to become a resident. That is the law. Nevermind domicile. What exactly is it you are so determined to prove?


----------



## Tigerlillie

kaipa said:


> But you cant get a uk licence if you dont live in UK. Thd address is your place of permanent residence. Licences can be used as identification in some cases. Either way you are bending the rules. Why doing you just phone DVLA and tell them your plans? Saves all the shadowy interpretations


You're wasting your time and energy, there will always be people in this world that think they are better than others and the laws, rules and regulations that the majority of people follow do not apply to them.


----------



## foggie

I am 100% in agreement with you that Spanish law says if you want to live in Spain for more than 3 consecutive months you have to become a resident. Where have I said that is not true of Spanish law?

That you are trying to tell me you cannot be resident in 2 countries at the same time I hear but it is not the legal situation in British case law. That is not my fault.

My reference was to British case law and relating to spending time working in the UK while registered in an EU country, not necessarily Spain but this is the Brexit thread in the forum as a whole. It is a discussion that will not affect your life unless you note something of value in it for yourself or family. I find the idea that you think someone is trying to prove something by a question is bizarre. If it is an Ad Hominem response it is not useful.


----------



## kaipa

Sorry but I am so confused. Could you just simply state what you wish to do with respect to your driving licence? And also do you want to live in spain or uk?


----------



## foggie

Tigerlillie said:


> You're wasting your time and energy, there will always be people in this world that think they are better than others and the laws, rules and regulations that the majority of people follow do not apply to them.


Carlin's comic remark was directed at the mass (the majority) in the Trump election so I am am not sure about the aim of the comment in regards to person/persons in an entire forum.

If it was for my consumption please state which laws or regulations that I might be better than as my only point here was to ask what laws and rules to follow in my particular circumstance.

Just a question.


----------



## foggie

kaipa said:


> Sorry but I am so confused. Could you just simply state what you wish to do with respect to your driving licence? And also do you want to live in spain or uk?


Overandout gave a superb reply that looks like putting that issue to bed.

This is my last post here but I will say what I am doing.

I am an engineer and almost all my work comes through Europe. Brexit has already caused a loss of livelihood. If I register to live in an EU country this year I will not need work permits for Dutch refinery, ELF Petroleum, Onegas work etc., but I have no intention to break all ties with the UK I still do at least three months work on UK projects. The licence thing was do I get licence and buy EU car or UK car and shift it back and forth, I have not worked out the best bet so far.

Directing questions to a forum with people that possibly or probably have simply moved as a life choice or retired in the sun was I think a mistake; different worlds.

I can either get the information for an informed choice or wait until 1st Jan 2021 and jump.

I had no intention to upset people here with difficult questions in a varied and broken thread and have no intention to respond to any sniping about my supposed wicked or unlawful intentions, it's not my thing so I won't post on the Spain forum again.

Good luck to all of you and I hope you all live happy and peaceful lives in the Sun.


----------



## Tigerlillie

foggie said:


> Carlin's comic remark was directed at the mass (the majority) in the Trump election so I am am not sure about the aim of the comment in regards to person/persons in an entire forum.
> 
> If it was for my consumption please state which laws or regulations that I might be better than as my only point here was to ask what laws and rules to follow in my particular circumstance.
> 
> *Just a question*.


Not quite sure what my signature has to do with this thread (and I'm quite a fan of Carlin and his particular sense of humour) but in answer to what I've highlighted:

Just an observation. 

Oh and PS... you don't have to explain mass/majority to me, I'm quite confident in knowing it's meaning as defined in the dictionary.


----------



## kaipa

You mention working all over the EU but isnt that the one thing that has definitely stopped for UK nationals residing in Europe, namely free movement . I was under the impression that people who at the moment live in Spain would not be able to live and work in France


----------



## xabiaxica

foggie said:


> Overandout gave a superb reply that looks like putting that issue to bed.
> 
> This is my last post here but I will say what I am doing.
> 
> I am an engineer and almost all my work comes through Europe. Brexit has already caused a loss of livelihood. If I register to live in an EU country this year I will not need work permits for Dutch refinery, ELF Petroleum, Onegas work etc., but I have no intention to break all ties with the UK I still do at least three months work on UK projects. The licence thing was do I get licence and buy EU car or UK car and shift it back and forth, I have not worked out the best bet so far.
> 
> Directing questions to a forum with people that possibly or probably have simply moved as a life choice or retired in the sun was I think a mistake; different worlds.
> 
> I can either get the information for an informed choice or wait until 1st Jan 2021 and jump.
> 
> I had no intention to upset people here with difficult questions in a varied and broken thread and have no intention to respond to any sniping about my supposed wicked or unlawful intentions, it's not my thing so I won't post on the Spain forum again.
> 
> Good luck to all of you and I hope you all live happy and peaceful lives in the Sun.


Those of us who moved to work are in the vast majority - those who moved to retire are few in the scheme of things. For those of us in the first category, life is far from peaceful - let alone in the sun most of the time!


No-one is accusing you of anything, simply stating the way things are. We live here, Brexit is affecting us on a daily basis, so we have researched & continue to do so. Many of us speak & read enough Spanish to be able to get our info directly from the Spanish govt websites.

I'm sorry if you don't like, or agree with the answers you have received - but that's your choice. 

If you move to Spain you will have to change to a Spanish licence in order to drive here. Before the end of the year you will be able to exchange it & give up the UK issued one. Current info from the DGT is that from Jan 1 2021 you will have to take a driving test. In Spanish. It isn't yet known if that means handing in the UK issued licence.

If you live in Spain, Spanish law applies. Whatever British law says about residency, domicile or anything else is completely irrelevant. 

There really is nothing more to say on that issue.


----------



## stevesainty

I read, almost daily, about Brexit related officialdom whilst living in Spain. Mainly from official sources and semi - official support groups like Brexpats in Spain.

One of the things that has come forward is that we should not yet apply for a TIE as there may be special wording added to reflect the rights conferred by the withdrawal agreement for those UK citizens who were former EU citizens. Your current green A4/credit card so called "residencia" will suffice for now.

It may be that the new wording may confer freedom of movement for we UK citizens who are former EU citizens. If this comes to pass then we may be able to live and work in all 27 of current EU Countries as well as UK.

‎Anne Hernandez‎ to BREXPATS IN SPAIN
Admin · 10 February at 21:37
In some areas that 14 Feb deadline for green Residencies has been extended till 28 Feb.

For those of us already in possession of our green Residences, until all the EU countries have agreed the wording for our TIEs to reflect our rights in accordance with the WA, we should not apply for them. Please rest assured that we shall let you know as soon as we know something. But until then, despite what you might hear or read elsewhere, DO NOTHING!


----------



## Overandout

stevesainty said:


> I read, almost daily, about Brexit related officialdom whilst living in Spain. Mainly from official sources and semi - official support groups like Brexpats in Spain.
> 
> One of the things that has come forward is that we should not yet apply for a TIE as there may be special wording added to reflect the rights conferred by the withdrawal agreement for those UK citizens who were former EU citizens. Your current green A4/credit card so called "residencia" will suffice for now.
> 
> It may be that the new wording may confer freedom of movement for we UK citizens who are former EU citizens. If this comes to pass then we may be able to live and work in all 27 of current EU Countries as well as UK.
> 
> ‎Anne Hernandez‎ to BREXPATS IN SPAIN
> Admin · 10 February at 21:37
> In some areas that 14 Feb deadline for green Residencies has been extended till 28 Feb.
> 
> For those of us already in possession of our green Residences, until all the EU countries have agreed the wording for our TIEs to reflect our rights in accordance with the WA, we should not apply for them. Please rest assured that we shall let you know as soon as we know something. But until then, despite what you might hear or read elsewhere, DO NOTHING!


I certainly like this reasoning as to why the TIEs are not ready (as opposed to the lack of administrative resources in the EU countries), but, to extend the lack of agreement on how to reflect the WA terms on the document to a vague hope that the final wording gives us rights beyond what seems to have been agreed could be seen as a bit irresponsible surely?

Note that I really hope that I am wrong and that there really is some realistic hope that freedom of movement in the EU will be conferred on current EU residents, but I just can't find anything which suggests that in the text. (I am referring mainly to Article 24).


----------



## stevesainty

Overandout said:


> Note that I really hope that I am wrong and that there really is some realistic hope that freedom of movement in the EU will be conferred on current EU residents, but I just can't find anything which suggests that in the text. (I am referring mainly to Article 24).


I know it is straw grasping, but there have been discussions in EU parliament about keeping freedom of movement for ex EU citizens. We all need some hope!


----------



## Megsmum

kaipa said:


> Sorry but I am so confused. Could you just simply state what you wish to do with respect to your driving licence? And also do you want to live in spain or uk?


I’ve followed that individuals posts and I can find no coherence in any of them. I’m not sure the poster actually knows what he wants which is probably 99% of the problem, plus, to put it bluntly, like many, when they don’t like the answer they shoot the messenger


----------



## snikpoh

kaipa said:


> After Brexit we dont know what the rules will be concerning 2 licences. At the moment if you come to spain to live you have to have a Spanish licence . You can do that by exchanging your uk one or you could do a spanish test. But you cant pretend to live in 2 countries for the purposes of having 2 licences. That is where it becomes a bit shady.


This is simply false. 

Provided your UK d/l meets the Spanish requirements (in regard to expiry etc. - and most do), then it is entirely valid to be used here. Obviously, after the transition period, things will be different


----------



## xabiaxica

snikpoh said:


> This is simply false.
> 
> Provided your UK d/l meets the Spanish requirements (in regard to expiry etc. - and most do), then it is entirely valid to be used here. Obviously, after the transition period, things will be different


So the advice is correct. 

Unless you want to take a test after Jan 2021 - & the DGT is currently stating that a test will be required, you MUST exchange your licence this year. You won't be able to after that.


----------



## davexf

xabiaxica said:


> So the advice is correct.
> 
> Unless you want to take a test after Jan 2021 - & the DGT is currently stating that a test will be required, you MUST exchange your licence this year. You won't be able to after that.


Hola 

Not entirely true depending on what you read; i have read from both the British Consul, and the DGT that they are allowing the exchange for NINE MONTHS from 31st January - ergo 31st October 

I expect things to change every day and can't be bothered to try to keep up until things are cast in concrete BUT i have advised my friends to do it before September and preferably NOW because we are in fluid state. 

"Just what is it that makes you think that a British Driving Licence is more important than a Spanish Driving Licence? When the man in the green uniform with a pistol on his hip says he wants to see a Spanish driving licence, have you got sufficient Spanish to argue you case?" 

The above is what i say to all those that cannot see it is actually better to have a Spanish licence 

Davexf


----------



## Juan C

https://sede.dgt.gob.es/es/permisos...n-renovacion-sustitucion-permisos/index.shtml

Los permisos de conducir expedidos en cualquier Estado miembro de la Unión Europea, Reino Unido (hasta el 31/12/2020) y el Espacio Económico Europeo (Islandia, Liechtenstein y Noruega) son válidos para conducir en España mientras estén en vigor y no hayan sido retirados por ninguna razón, con la salvedad de que la edad requerida para la conducción corresponderá a la exigida para obtener el permiso de conducir español equivalente.

Desde la DGT puedes realizar distintos trámites con tu permiso europeo: Canje para conseguir un permiso Español, inscripción de tu permiso en nuestros registros, renovación en caso de que tu permiso esté a punto de caducar u obtener un duplicado si lo has perdido, se ha deteriorado o te lo han robado.

Importante: Con la salida del Reino Unido de la Unión Europea, los permisos de conducir británicos dejarán de ser válidos para conducir en España a partir del 31 de diciembre de 2020. En caso de ser residente en nuestro país, si quieres seguir poder conduciendo por nuestras carreteras, deberás realizar el canje, renovación o sustitución de tu permiso por uno español antes de dicha fecha.

Online translation

Driving licenses issued in any Member State of the European Union, United Kingdom (until 12/31/2020) and the European Economic Area (Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway) are valid for driving in Spain while they are in force and have not been removed for any reason, with the proviso that the age required for driving will correspond to that required to obtain the equivalent Spanish driver's license.

From the DGT you can carry out different procedures with your European permit: Exchange to obtain a Spanish permit, registration of your permit in our records, renewal in case your permit is about to expire or obtain a duplicate if you have lost it, it has been damaged or stolen.

*Important: With the departure of the United Kingdom from the European Union, British driving licenses will no longer be valid for driving in Spain from December 31, 2020. If you are a resident in our country, if you want to continue driving through our roads, you must make the exchange, renewal or replacement of your permit by a Spanish before said date.*


----------



## xabiaxica

davexf said:


> Hola
> 
> Not entirely true depending on what you read; i have read from both the British Consul, and the DGT that they are allowing the exchange for NINE MONTHS from 31st January - ergo 31st October
> 
> I expect things to change every day and can't be bothered to try to keep up until things are cast in concrete BUT i have advised my friends to do it before September and preferably NOW because we are in fluid state.
> 
> "Just what is it that makes you think that a British Driving Licence is more important than a Spanish Driving Licence? When the man in the green uniform with a pistol on his hip says he wants to see a Spanish driving licence, have you got sufficient Spanish to argue you case?"
> 
> The above is what i say to all those that cannot see it is actually better to have a Spanish licence
> 
> Davexf


Yeah, I've read that 9 months too, though it seems to go against the withdrawal agreement.

I can see log¡c to it though - it gives time for the paperwork to be completed before the end of the withdrawal period. 

I would certainly agree that it should be done ASAP & that's what I'm advising, too.


----------



## andyviola

Lol yes but there were also posts basically calling the expat enclaves on costa del sol as communities living in a kind of apartheid! Im gonna stop reading these replies on twitter 😂


----------



## Overandout

andyviola said:


> Just seen a Spanish post this in twitter and as brit living in Spain i am a bit disturbed that there might be anti British sentiment swell up. It was in response to uk proposal on points based immigration.
> 
> "Your country its norms, I just hope that on the part of our rulers they issue scrupulously reciprocal norms to the British for UK citizens"


I wouldn't worry about it. There has always been and there will always be an "anti-outsider" sentiment in every culture, country, religion or whatever delimiting factor you care to apply.
The mods hated the rockers.

I have been told to "go back to my f**king country" quite a few times since being here, not because I am British, just because when confronting someone they notice the "outsider status" and use that as the targeting mechanism. 
When its "territory related" it can be because of football, trade disagreements, perceived illegal occupancy, now its Brexit. 
When Brexit is forgotten you will still be the "**** guiri". But it's nothing personal.


----------



## andyviola

Ah cheers o and o! Will slip on a thicker skin and keep calm and carry on!


----------



## Isobella

Aren’t the rules already similar re. Earnings?


----------



## andyviola

Hope not as i have no job or pension...just savings. But we got residency.


----------



## Isobella

andyviola said:


> Lol yes but there were also posts basically calling the expat enclaves on costa del sol as communities living in a kind of apartheid! Im gonna stop reading these replies on twitter 😂


Have you got a link? Twitter is not for the faint hearted infact like most of social media it is toxic. At least you can all out pc plodd here if it gets too hot

For over a year there was graffiti on a bridge close to Malaga airport saying Brits go home but no one took it personally.


----------



## Williams2

Juan C said:


> [B]Important: With the departure ...in your pocket remain the same back in 1967 ?


----------



## andyviola

Isobella said:


> andyviola said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lol yes but there were also posts basically calling the expat enclaves on costa del sol as communities living in a kind of apartheid! Im gonna stop reading these replies on twitter 😂
> 
> 
> 
> Have you got a link? Twitter is not for the faint hearted infact like most of social media it is toxic. At least you can all out pc plodd here if it gets too hot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For over a year there was graffiti on a bridge close to Malaga airport saying Brits go home but no one took it personally.
Click to expand...

Sure Isobel

https://mobile.twitter.com/nostramonauta/status/1230137780854042624


----------



## andyviola

In fact Isobel this is the Apartheid one

https://mobile.twitter.com/campomanes66/status/1230057401841258496
Maybe they don't like fish n Chips?


----------



## kaipa

Yep that tweet basically says : treat us like this and we will treat you accordingly. Seems fair enough. If you want to live in uk after transition you have to have English.Thats what uk folk expect from foreigners who settle in their land. So I expect spain to apply the same rules to Brits after Brexit. Why not? If my kids education is going to completely ******ed up because Brits voted for Brexit I am sure as hell not going wait at my doctors surgery while some penny pinching British couple wander around complaining that no one speaks English.


----------



## Isobella

andyviola said:


> Hope not as i have no job or pension...just savings. But we got residency.


I think I saw on here that the income for those wanting to work and have families is quite high in Spain too, plus the health costs to obtain residencia?


----------



## Lynn R

Isobella said:


> I think I saw on here that the income for those wanting to work and have families is quite high in Spain too, plus the health costs to obtain residencia?


The minimum income requirements are for those applying for non lucrative visas to live in Spain, ie they will not be working. In the case of workers, the company has to apply for a work permit for them and they must either be in a Shortage Occupation or the vacancy has been advertised and no suitable Spanish or EU citizen candidate could be found. There isn't any minimum income threshold for workers as far as I am aware.

Similarly, the health insurance to obtain a visa only applies to those who will not be working. Those with a job would be paying Spanish social security contributions and therefore entitled to Spanish public healthcare for themselves and their families from the day they start work. Their social security contributions would cover those costs, unlike in the UK where non EU immigrants applying for a visa (and no doubt this will apply to new immigrants from EU countries as well after the end of this year) must pay the NHS surcharge with their visa application (currently 400 pounds per year per family member but shortly to increase to 625 pounds), on top of the tax and NI contributions they pay for the duration of their stay.


----------



## Isobella

Lynn R said:


> The minimum income requirements are for those applying for non lucrative visas to live in Spain, ie they will not be working. In the case of workers, the company has to apply for a work permit for them and they must either be in a Shortage Occupation or the vacancy has been advertised and no suitable Spanish or EU citizen candidate could be found. There isn't any minimum income threshold for workers as far as I am aware.
> 
> Similarly, the health insurance to obtain a visa only applies to those who will not be working. Those with a job would be paying Spanish social security contributions and therefore entitled to Spanish public healthcare for themselves and their families from the day they start work. Their social security contributions would cover those costs, unlike in the UK where non EU immigrants applying for a visa (and no doubt this will apply to new immigrants from EU countries as well after the end of this year) must pay the NHS surcharge with their visa application (currently 400 pounds per year per family member but shortly to increase to 625 pounds), on top of the tax and NI contributions they pay for the duration of their stay.


If a uk family moved to Spain and got employment at Eg 1200 would they be able to get residencia?


----------



## Lynn R

Isobella said:


> If a uk family moved to Spain and got employment at Eg 1200 would they be able to get residencia?


At the moment, whilst they are still EU citizens, yes. If someone is working they just have to provide a copy of their employment contract and proof they are paying SS contributions when registering as residents. After the end of the transition period, as I said a company would have to apply for a work permit for them but the salary level isn't a factor in that. And nor is speaking Spanish as far as the immigration authorities are concerned, although it might well be a requirement demanded by the employer.


----------



## andyviola

Maybe I wasn't clear. we got residencia. All we did was show proof that we had bought a house as our residence and also showed our private health insurance.


----------



## andyviola

Sorry I see now "Similarly, the health insurance to obtain a visa only applies to those who will not be working". That explains why they asked for private health cover then..not working.


----------



## xabiaxica

Lots of 'opinion' posts moved to the Brexit Saga opinion thread in La Tasca.


----------



## Lynn R

We have just spoken to someone at the Overseas Healthcare Team of the DWP in Newcastle (extremely helpful, as they always are) who has arranged to renew our EHIC cards. I asked the question about whether, as we are S1 holders, they will remain valid beyond the end of the transition period. He checked it out before giving an answer, came back and confirmed that yes, for people who have S1s registered in an EU member state before 31 December 2020, their EHIC cards will continue to be valid after that date.

That's very good news and I think it should be publicised, because all the press reports I've seen talk about EHIC cards not being able to be used beyond the end of the transition period unless some new reciprocal agreement is reached, but that is obviously only relevant to holidaymakers.


----------



## xabiaxica

BREXIT BONUS. 

I've just seen that we registered residents will be able to leave Spain for up to FIVE years without losing our right to residency, as opposed to the current two years. 

That'll please my itchy feet daughter. Mind you, she'll still need to take Spanish nationality in order to easily live & work in another EU country, as has long been her plan.


I wonder if they'll have a way of dealing with those who might turn up, register, then disappear for 5 years before actually moving here.


----------



## xabiaxica

Lynn R said:


> We have just spoken to someone at the Overseas Healthcare Team of the DWP in Newcastle (extremely helpful, as they always are) who has arranged to renew our EHIC cards. I asked the question about whether, as we are S1 holders, they will remain valid beyond the end of the transition period. He checked it out before giving an answer, came back and confirmed that yes, for people who have S1s registered in an EU member state before 31 December 2020, their EHIC cards will continue to be valid after that date.
> 
> That's very good news and I think it should be publicised, because all the press reports I've seen talk about EHIC cards not being able to be used beyond the end of the transition period unless some new reciprocal agreement is reached, but that is obviously only relevant to holidaymakers.


This from theBritish Embassy confirms that


https://www.facebook.com/BritsInSpain/videos/193261655363869/?__xts__[0]=68.ARCl_9O9oIMGRVRC_-ftoLZI7fvNreWaxYke_QjJt29aBn3sJ33kySXWximSCUzqKKFe1Zr1c31v4_i7KL3vZN8_eZlLdgDf3oKs-LYWg1dR2bhD44UT0j0pNGCl6rigl82Zkrhju_Fb9Hb6BzFBJ0IOEXZ0H5tiyJk1vOqp29b9mdow3NYDPhJFF8tozPunzlGrESwD-tGp3io6nQ_yZpgrUGmsjJPe5uCNepm-85_r9as_T4YF4pC1H7ORJSJQme67cx2vZut5z2---TCJU0t_eusf97ASUik93TynIAgLVP-23JtESeifEpOrd45i-6mimx57t4H1fJyxXGc4LPK5f8MvCofzL191Dg&__tn__=-R


----------



## Overandout

xabiaxica said:


> BREXIT BONUS.
> 
> I've just seen that we registered residents will be able to leave Spain for up to FIVE years without losing our right to residency.
> 
> That'll please my itchy feet daughter. Mind you, she'll still need to take Spanish nationality in order to easily live & work in another EU country, as has long been her plan.


This is excellent news. Can I ask you to disclose where you read this, or post a link?


----------



## kaipa

But this 5 year thing will surely encourage people to come now register and then ****** off to uk for 5 years. Or maybe that is okay. No doubt they will expect some kind of tax return each year


----------



## Juan C

Overandout said:


> xabiaxica said:
> 
> 
> 
> BREXIT BONUS.
> 
> I've just seen that we registered residents will be able to leave Spain for up to FIVE years without losing our right to residency.
> .
> 
> 
> 
> Whilst that appears good news I suspect there are conditions.
> 
> For example: If one were to move their main home ( centre of economic activity) from spain, to say U.K., and thus becoming resident in U.K., that might invalidate one's residence status in spain.
Click to expand...


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> But this 5 year thing will surely encourage people to come now register and then ****** off to uk for 5 years. Or maybe that is okay. No doubt they will expect some kind of tax return each year


That's what I was thinking...


----------



## xabiaxica

Overandout said:


> This is excellent news. Can I ask you to disclose where you read this, or post a link?


I fully intend to... as soon as I find it again...


----------



## Alcalaina

Lynn R said:


> We have just spoken to someone at the Overseas Healthcare Team of the DWP in Newcastle (extremely helpful, as they always are) who has arranged to renew our EHIC cards.


Thank you for that, just check ours and they expired last November!


----------



## Juan C

Alcalaina said:


> Thank you for that, just check ours and they expired last November!


I renewed ours a couple of months ago, although we had never used them, and as we don’t need them in Spain nor U.K. and we are unlikely to visit another EU
country, I guess it was a pointless exercise.


----------



## Lynn R

Alcalaina said:


> Thank you for that, just check ours and they expired last November!


Ours weren't due to expire until April, but we were wanting to make some travel arrangments for this summer so asked if they could be renewed now, which they were happy to do.


----------



## Alcalaina

Lynn R said:


> Ours weren't due to expire until April, but we were wanting to make some travel arrangments for this summer so asked if they could be renewed now, which they were happy to do.


All sorted. If only all government departments were so efficient!

For anyone else in the same situation, the number to ring is 0044 191 218 1999. Have your National Insurance number(s) ready.


----------



## xabiaxica

xabiaxica said:


> I fully intend to... as soon as I find it again...


It's in the withdrawal agreement - & detailed here! 

https://britishineurope.org/2020/01/25/wa-residence-rights-procedures/?fbclid=IwAR2i1PfRzrsuvr2sAzunKz-s4xJOikW6XlRIRwNhpqnbFz22DznZ_lHSLgE

It says that 'permanent residents' have this ability to stay out of the country for 5 years increased from the current 2. 

While 'building up' your 5 years to qualify for permanent residency, you can only stay out for up to 6 months. 


So that stops the 'register & run' brigade.


----------



## Juan C

NB. Maybe it will need to done by post. 

https://www.nhs.uk/using-the-nhs/he...r-a-free-ehic-european-health-insurance-card/

Quote : 

Non-EEA nationals

If you or a family member are not an EU, Norwegian, Icelandic, Liechtensteiner or Swiss national, you'll have to provide further evidence that you're eligible.

You'll need to complete an EHIC application form (PDF, 753kb), attach a copy of your visa or UK residence permit, and post it to:

Overseas Healthcare Services
NHS Business Services Authority
Bridge House
152 Pilgrim Street
Newcastle upon Tyne
NE1 6SN


----------



## 95995

xabiaxica said:


> I fully intend to... as soon as I find it again...


Apparently it's in the WA (which might just contain more detail on the measure).


----------



## 95995

xabiaxica said:


> It's in the withdrawal agreement - & detailed here!
> 
> https://britishineurope.org/2020/01/25/wa-residence-rights-procedures/?fbclid=IwAR2i1PfRzrsuvr2sAzunKz-s4xJOikW6XlRIRwNhpqnbFz22DznZ_lHSLgE
> 
> It says that 'permanent residents' have this ability to stay out of the country for 5 years increased from the current 2.
> 
> While 'building up' your 5 years to qualify for permanent residency, you can only stay out for up to 6 months.
> 
> 
> So that stops the 'register & run' brigade.


Sorry, I didn't see that you had posted the link when I made my last (now redundant) post.


----------



## Joppa

I seem to remember the 6-month provision is for each year, so you can be away from your country of residence up to 6 months each year, not 6 months in 5 years. Can anyone confirm this? This applies to EU citizens in UK after the implementation period. You can actually be away for up to 2 years without losing your pre-settled status but obviously in this case it will take longer to attain settled status. I don't know if this applies to UK citizens in Spain on a reciprocal basis.


----------



## xabiaxica

Joppa said:


> I seem to remember the 6-month provision is for each year, so you can be away from your country of residence up to 6 months each year, not 6 months in 5 years. Can anyone confirm this? This applies to EU citizens in UK after the implementation period. You can actually be away for up to 2 years without losing your pre-settled status but obviously in this case it will take longer to attain settled status. I don't know if this applies to UK citizens in Spain on a reciprocal basis.


Yes, 6 months a year. This applies only to those registered before the end of the implementation period. 

It doesn't seem to be quite the same as for EU citizens in the UK - you can read it all in the link I posted.


----------



## jay1970

*Moving/registration*

Hi Everyone,
My parter and I will be relocating to Spain in September, although are flexible on this. We haven’t actually decided on any particular area, although we are thinking Andalucia (Granada) area maybe, or fuetaventura.....I know this is a little random, but there are lots of pros and cons to island living, and living main land Spain.
we will probably rent at first, and maybe do a little more travelling to find the ideal area for us. 
I have my NIE Number, which needs renewing, but we both need to register for all other paperwork to avoid non eu citizenship, come 31st December.
Has my Spanish is fairly basic. I will be seeking help to guide me throu the Spanish legal work, ie all paper work.
Can anyone recommend people/company who offer these services, and can anyone advice or gestimate to how long this process takes (I realise this is spain) 
Myself and my partner are wanting to marry this year (going to be a very busy year) so not sure whether to tie the knot here, or marry in Spain as my partner will need to change all her documentation.
Wow, so much advice needed, but not wanting to type all day. 
Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks kindly


----------



## Juan C

You say you need to renew your NIE. Sorry but you misunderstand that, as an NIE never needs to be renewed and in fact there is no facility for doing so.

For specific advice, you need to give more details. Example your nationalities for a start. 

If we know that some of us will try to help


----------



## Juan C

This may help regarding making an application to Register on the EU Citizens Register 

TO MAKE AN APPOINTMENT WITH THE POLICE FOR NIE, E.U. Citizen registration, etc.

*As you go through you will find links to the application forms and the payment, at any bank, form *

.• GO TO https://sede.administracionespublicas.gob.es/icpplus/ 

• PROVINCES AVAILABLE: CHOOSE the province where your are living/ staying 

• SECTIONS AVAILABLE IN PROVINCE: OPEN PAGE AND SELECT SECTION REQUIRED

e.g. “policía certificado de residente o no residente” (that includes NIE application)
* NOTE there is now a special section for UK citizens* which must be chosen that is “Polica-Certificada EU (Exclusivamente para Reina Unido)

• ENTER THE DETAILS OF APPLICANT. if you have an NIE show that, if not then show your passport number 

• CHOOSE NATIONAL POLICE STATION FOR APPOINTMENT: The one that covers the area where you live 
Motivo o tipo de solicitud de la cita, show reason for requesting appointment

• CHOOSE AN APPOINTMENT, AND THEN CONFIRM. If the office you require is not shown that means there are no appointments available at the moment so please try again later 

• You must PRINT A COPY OF THE APPOINTMENT, and take it with you to the police station
You can find info here in English about completing the EX15, it is useful re the other EX forms

http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consul...E 2018 - TRANSLATED NIE FORM 2018 - GUIDE.pdf


----------



## Joppa

As for getting married in Spain, unless you are both Catholic and marrying for the first time in church, for civil marriage one of you must have lived in Spain for 2 years, or you can marry in Gibraltar without residential qualification. Or just marry in UK. Your UK marriage certificate, translated by sworn translator, is sufficient.


----------



## jay1970

Joppa said:


> As for getting married in Spain, unless you are both Catholic and marrying for the first time in church, for civil marriage one of you must have lived in Spain for 2 years, or you can marry in Gibraltar without residential qualification. Or just marry in UK. Your UK marriage certificate, translated by sworn translator, is sufficient.


Ah ok, thank you.
We are non catholic, so looks like a uk marriage. Thanks for the advice.


----------



## jay1970

Juan C said:


> This may help regarding making an application to Register on the EU Citizens Register
> 
> TO MAKE AN APPOINTMENT WITH THE POLICE FOR NIE, E.U. Citizen registration, etc.
> 
> *As you go through you will find links to the application forms and the payment, at any bank, form *
> 
> .• GO TO https://sede.administracionespublicas.gob.es/icpplus/
> 
> • PROVINCES AVAILABLE: CHOOSE the province where your are living/ staying
> 
> • SECTIONS AVAILABLE IN PROVINCE: OPEN PAGE AND SELECT SECTION REQUIRED
> 
> e.g. “policía certificado de residente o no residente” (that includes NIE application)
> * NOTE there is now a special section for UK citizens* which must be chosen that is “Polica-Certificada EU (Exclusivamente para Reina Unido)
> 
> • ENTER THE DETAILS OF APPLICANT. if you have an NIE show that, if not then show your passport number
> 
> • CHOOSE NATIONAL POLICE STATION FOR APPOINTMENT: The one that covers the area where you live
> Motivo o tipo de solicitud de la cita, show reason for requesting appointment
> 
> • CHOOSE AN APPOINTMENT, AND THEN CONFIRM. If the office you require is not shown that means there are no appointments available at the moment so please try again later
> 
> • You must PRINT A COPY OF THE APPOINTMENT, and take it with you to the police station
> You can find info here in English about completing the EX15, it is useful re the other EX forms
> 
> http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consul...E 2018 - TRANSLATED NIE FORM 2018 - GUIDE.pdf


Thank you.
I will look at that link. I will look at registering on the EU citizens register.
Do I need a Spanish address and bank account for those? 
We are at the moment uk nationals.

Thanks


----------



## jay1970

Juan C said:


> You say you need to renew your NIE. Sorry but you misunderstand that, as an NIE never needs to be renewed and in fact there is no facility for doing so.
> 
> For specific advice, you need to give more details. Example your nationalities for a start.
> 
> If we know that some of us will try to help


Hi 
Yes, think I have been slightly miss informed with regard to NIE.
We are uk nationals. My nie was obtained at elche police station.

Thanks


----------



## Juan C

A couple of things occur to me. Albeit that you intend to marry that does not mean, if you are both EU nationals, that you cannot both register on the EU Citizen Register. As for changing documents, whilst in UK it is a tradition / custom that women change their surname on marriage, it not a requirement and there is actually no law which permits nor prevents it. In Spain one cannot change their name without a court order and that is only in very unusual circumstances. On marriage that means Spanish women nationals keep their surnames.

One cannot obtain EU Citizen Registration unless they live in Spain. If they do that they will have an address. You do not need a bank account but you do need sufficient income or assets and full medical cover without any co-payments, exclusions or limitations


----------



## Joppa

For residency, you only need to enter a local address on the application form, and no evidence such as rental contract or property ownership is required. You will need documentary evidence when getting on the padron. Check what the particular police station requires in the way of financial sufficiency - it varies. The local foreigners' office usually knows what is acceptable.


----------



## Juan C

Just a small point. 

The address for EU Citizen Registration really needs to be the address where you are living as you are required to notifying changes of address, which entails producing paperwork. 

That is unlike an application for an NIE when one only needs to show an address where you are staying. It can even be a hotel / hostal where you stayed the night before, and that address never needs to be updated. 


Although there may be some local variations, the processes for foreigners are directed by central government and therefore the rules are the same across Spain


----------



## jay1970

Juan C said:


> A couple of things occur to me. Albeit that you intend to marry that does not mean, if you are both EU nationals, that you cannot both register on the EU Citizen Register. As for changing documents, whilst in UK it is a tradition / custom that women change their surname on marriage, it not a requirement and there is actually no law which permits nor prevents it. In Spain one cannot change their name without a court order and that is only in very unusual circumstances. On marriage that means Spanish women nationals keep their surnames.
> 
> One cannot obtain EU Citizen Registration unless they live in Spain. If they do that they will have an address. You do not need a bank account but you do need sufficient income or assets and full medical cover without any co-payments, exclusions or limitations


I’m assuming that as an EU citizen (as we are now) we have a right to live and work in Spain, and that once registered, will be able to live and work in Spain beyond 31st December 2020? I’m a little confused as to why we would need to show sufficient income, and full medical cover.
As a registered EU citizen living in Spain, would we not be able to pay into the Spanish health care system? 

Thanks


----------



## Juan C

jay1970 said:


> I’m assuming that as an EU citizen (as we are now) we have a right to live and work in Spain, and that once registered, will be able to live and work in Spain beyond 31st December 2020? I’m a little confused as to why we would need to show sufficient income, and full medical cover.
> As a registered EU citizen living in Spain, would we not be able to pay into the Spanish health care system?
> 
> Thanks


You did not say you would be working. As an EU national, you will have the right to work in Spain. If you get a formal job offer, that is sufficient to cover the income and medical cover requirements.


----------



## jay1970

Juan C said:


> Just a small point.
> 
> The address for EU Citizen Registration really needs to be the address where you are living as you are required to notifying changes of address, which entails producing paperwork.
> 
> That is unlike an application for an NIE when one only needs to show an address where you are staying. It can even be a hotel / hostal where you stayed the night before, and that address never needs to be updated.
> 
> 
> Although there may be some local variations, the processes for foreigners are directed by central government and therefore the rules are the same across Spain


Are we required to live at this Spanish address for any period of time, and I’m assuming it’s ok if we are renting? We may not stay in the area for more than a few months if that area does not suit us. 
Do you know how long registration can take. We are planning to return to Spain in September, we were hoping to be registered before December.

Thanks 

Jason and Carla


----------



## jay1970

Juan C said:


> You did not say you would be working. As an EU national, you will have the right to work in Spain. If you get a formal job offer, that is sufficient to cover the income and medical cover requirements.


Ah ok, thanks Juan, yes of course. We probably won’t be working to start with, but hopefully, once settled, would look for part time work. We are not particularly in a hurry to find work, but more in an hurry to find our place in life within Spain. 
We are not ready to retire, and will have sufficient funds for maybe a year to try different parts of Spain till we find the right area for ourselves.

Thanks

Jason and Carla


----------



## Juan C

Sorry I thought I made it clear by saying, " You really needs to be the address where you are living as you are required to notifying changes of address, which entails producing paperwork. "

Of course you can move around, but to need to keep the registration info up to date.

When you meet the requirements, you need to make an appointment as I indicated, and attend `producing the paperwork. The Certificate is issued very shortly after that, albeit there is some variation between the offices.


----------



## jay1970

Juan C said:


> Sorry I thought I made it clear by saying, " You really needs to be the address where you are living as you are required to notifying changes of address, which entails producing paperwork. "
> 
> Of course you can move around, but to need to keep the registration info up to date.
> 
> When you meet the requirements, you need to make an appointment as I indicated, and attend `producing the paperwork. The Certificate is issued very shortly after that, albeit there is some variation between the offices.


Yes you probably did make it clear, I read it wrong, my mistake. 
So technically we could stay in one area, get registered, and for example after 3 months we decide to move on, re register our documents with that areas authorities, which would keep our registration up to date? 
Sorry if this feels like pulling teeth for you, I can be a little slow on the uptake.
We really do appreciate your advice and promptness on replying.
Do you know roughly how long the process for registration takes.


----------



## xabiaxica

jay1970 said:


> I’m assuming that as an EU citizen (as we are now) we have a right to live and work in Spain, and that once registered, will be able to live and work in Spain beyond 31st December 2020? I’m a little confused as to why we would need to show sufficient income, and full medical cover.
> As a registered EU citizen living in Spain, would we not be able to pay into the Spanish health care system?
> 
> Thanks


In order to register you do indeed need to show that you have income & healthcare cover. 

Yes, if working, you would be paying SS & therefore have healthcare cover. You would need to show your work contract when you register.

You say that you'll likely work part time? A part time contract won't be accepted at many extranjerías.

Unemployment is much higher in Spain than in the UK, so there's no guarantee that you'd find work.


----------



## xabiaxica

jay1970 said:


> Do you know roughly how long the process for registration takes.


Registration is done on the spot for EU citizens, once you have an appt & as long as all your paperwork is accepted. 

If the new TIE for Brits has been introduced by the time you register, that might have changed.


----------



## jay1970

xabiaxica said:


> In order to register you do indeed need to show that you have income & healthcare cover.
> 
> Yes, if working, you would be paying SS & therefore have healthcare cover. You would need to show your work contract when you register.
> 
> You say that you'll likely work part time? A part time contract won't be accepted at many extranjerías.
> 
> Unemployment is much higher in Spain than in the UK, so there's no guarantee that you'd find work.


Hi

So does does that mean finding work (full time) and obtaining a contract before trying to register, and is this registering on the EU register? I will not be able to show any income as I will not be working when we arrive. I’ve briefly lived in Spain before, and had two jobs, although it was cash in hand work, obviously things have changed since then in an attempt to stop money laundering. (This is what I’ve been told) 
Would setting up a business have different baring on registration, or do the same rules apply?

Thanks 

Jason and Carla


----------



## jay1970

xabiaxica said:


> Registration is done on the spot for EU citizens, once you have an appt & as long as all your paperwork is accepted.
> 
> If the new TIE for Brits has been introduced by the time you register, that might have changed.


What’s the new TIE for brits? Everyday is a school day for me. I’ve been planning this move for years, had to push things on a bit due to the brexit rubbish.

Thanks for the advice 

Jason and Carla


----------



## MataMata

For residency you will normally have to each show regular income and proof of full private health insurance valid for a minimum of 12 months.

Cash in the bank may be taken into account but will have to be substantial to override the income requirement.

I wouldn't bank on finding work even less on a contract which would qualify you for state healthcare.


----------



## jay1970

MataMata said:


> For residency you will normally have to each show regular income and proof of full private health insurance valid for a minimum of 12 months.
> 
> Cash in the bank may be taken into account but will have to be substantial to override the income requirement.
> 
> I wouldn't bank on finding work even less on a contract which would qualify you for state healthcare.


Hi MataMata 

Thanks for the reply. 
I was under the impression that we could register, then find work, but it appears we have to get a contact of work before registration. 
I thought you only was required to show a income and have full medical insurance if you were a non EU citizen?
Do you know if you can still register if you are setting up a business?

Thanks 

Jason


----------



## tebo53

Hi Jason,
You are indeed entitled to come to live and work in Spain but you are still required by law, within your first 90 days of living in Spain to sign the foreigners register and apply for residency. To achieve legal residency you will need to have a Spanish address, Spanish bank account (or certified uk bank statements) with at least 3 months of regular income which has to be enough income required so not to become a burden on the state. You will need to prove you have an NIE number and full healthcare cover paid for a full year for yourself and any dependants. If you have a work contract then that will probably cover those requirements. 

After 183 days you will automatically become a tax resident and be expected to pay taxes to the Spanish government. You will need to fill in form Modelo 720 on which you declare all your worldwide income and amounts in your bank accounts and any other income such as any rental income from property in the UK 
Spain has a very high unemployment rate and part time jobs are very hard to get especially if you can't speak Spanish. 

After Brexit requirements may differ as yet no-one knows. 

Steve


----------



## kaipa

First time I have heard that you need a full time contract. As long as SS is paid by employer you have access to healthcare. Contracts usually only state number of hours and not pay rates.


----------



## Juan C

tebo53 said:


> Hi Jason,
> 
> Spanish bank account (or certified uk bank statements) with at least 3 months of regular income which has to be enough income required so not to become a burden on the state.
> 
> You will need to prove you have an NIE number and
> 
> full healthcare cover paid for a full year for yourself and any dependants.
> 
> . Steve


I am sorry to disagree but as you will be getting a job offer before you apply, none of the above are required. 

The job offer or contract will show you will be getting an income and you will be included as a worker in the Spanish Social Security system

If you do not have an NIE when you apply for EU Registration that will be assigned. It will be the number on your green certificate


----------



## kaipa

Not quite sure what line of work you hope to get but unless you are a high level spanish speaker cant see it being easy.


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> First time I have heard that you need a full time contract. As long as SS is paid by employer you have access to healthcare. Contracts usually only state number of hours and not pay rates.


Neither had I until recently, but from various sources I've been hearing of people sent away because the likely income level wasn't considered to be enough on say a 5 hours a week contract. That would be logical to me, but one was on a 20 hour contract. 


As we know, the funcionarios interpret the rules differently in different offices.


----------



## xabiaxica

jay1970 said:


> Hi
> 
> So does does that mean finding work (full time) and obtaining a contract before trying to register, and is this registering on the EU register? I will not be able to show any income as I will not be working when we arrive. I’ve briefly lived in Spain before, and had two jobs, although it was cash in hand work, obviously things have changed since then in an attempt to stop money laundering. (This is what I’ve been told)
> Would setting up a business have different baring on registration, or do the same rules apply?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Jason and Carla


The requirement to show income in order to register as an EU citizen was introduced in 2012. Other posts have told you how to do this if you're not working when you register.



jay1970 said:


> What’s the new TIE for brits? Everyday is a school day for me. I’ve been planning this move for years, had to push things on a bit due to the brexit rubbish.
> 
> Thanks for the advice
> 
> Jason and Carla


Due to Brexit, there will be a special Tarjeta de Indentidad de Extranjero - TIE - for we Brits. They will show that we retain our rights under the WA.

Non-EU citizens have these, & that is what we now are. The new cards haven't yet been introduced, but when they are, those of us already registered will be able to change to one, & new registrations will be issued one if they are introduced during the withdrawal period.

It isn't yet known exactly what form they will take, but a 'normal' TIE requires fingerprints & photos.


----------



## xabiaxica

jay1970 said:


> Hi MataMata
> 
> Thanks for the reply.
> I was under the impression that we could register, then find work, but it appears we have to get a contact of work before registration.
> I thought you only was required to show a income and have full medical insurance if you were a non EU citizen?
> Do you know if you can still register if you are setting up a business?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Jason


It's only the income requirement level that is different for a non-EU citizen. 

EU citizens need 1 x IPREM (about 6,000€) & non-EU citizens need 4 x IPREM.


Both need full medical insurance. Both need to register within 90 days of arrival.

You can indeed register as autónomo (self-employed) & then register as resident. You might be asked to show a few months of SS payments & income when registering.


----------



## Juan C

Re TIE etc
I have a private meeting, with the British cónsul and the comisario of our local national police regarding registration by U.K. nationals, this week. If I am told of any changes I will report back to the forum

But don’t hold your breath I do not expect to hear anything new !


----------



## kaipa

Contracts dont state your level of pay just hours per length of contract so had can the officer know how much you get for 20 hour week?


----------



## kaipa

Besides any legal contract pays SS which means the state accepts you and will support you if necessary


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> Contracts dont state your level of pay just hours per length of contract so had can the officer know how much you get for 20 hour week?


Some contracts do state hourly rate - but rergardless, the funcionario decided that the pay for a 20 hour week wasn't sufficient income to support themselves. Perhaps they asked.


If I'd only heard one report from one source, I'd be doubtful. But I've heard several from different sources.


Also, there have for a long time been many many reports of temporary contracts not being accepted.


----------



## kaipa

But if you have a contract that means your employer will pay SS. Social Security means you contribute to the system and therefore have the right to use it. They cant discriminate you have rights. Non EU persons require set incomes but EU workers dont.


----------



## kaipa

I have never heard of contrato temporal being rejected. Hardly anyone has indefinidos


----------



## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> I have never heard of contrato temporal being rejected. Hardly anyone has indefinidos


Well we all know that different funcionarios interpret things in different ways. 


There shouldn't really be any difference between the financial requirement for EU citizens, since it's 'supposed' to be 1 x IPREM, yet that doesn't stop offices having very different requirements. 

One guy local to me was taken for his registration appt by a 'gestora' who told him that he & his wife needed to show income of 1200€ per month EACH. (And charged him 200€ per person for the pleasure ) 

Another local gestor says that the same office requires 7000€ per annum each, which is what some of my students have had to show.

Now, whether the first gestora told him a higher figure to be on the safe side, I have no idea, but 1200€ per month each seems way OTT, although a few years back someone was told 10,000€ each at that office. I saw the note they were given & referred them to a gestor I know who took them. Hey presto the requirement was dropped to around 6,000€.


----------



## kaipa

Yes I know what you mean. However, for the purpose of any Brirt who might be looking into getting residencia through working, a part time temporal contract in the majority of cases is sufficient.


----------



## jay1970

tebo53 said:


> Hi Jason,
> You are indeed entitled to come to live and work in Spain but you are still required by law, within your first 90 days of living in Spain to sign the foreigners register and apply for residency. To achieve legal residency you will need to have a Spanish address, Spanish bank account (or certified uk bank statements) with at least 3 months of regular income which has to be enough income required so not to become a burden on the state. You will need to prove you have an NIE number and full healthcare cover paid for a full year for yourself and any dependants. If you have a work contract then that will probably cover those requirements.
> 
> After 183 days you will automatically become a tax resident and be expected to pay taxes to the Spanish government. You will need to fill in form Modelo 720 on which you declare all your worldwide income and amounts in your bank accounts and any other income such as any rental income from property in the UK
> Spain has a very high unemployment rate and part time jobs are very hard to get especially if you can't speak Spanish.
> 
> After Brexit requirements may differ as yet no-one knows.
> 
> Steve


Hi Steve 

Thanks for replying. 
I will becoming over in around September, renting initially till we find the right area for us. 
I will register, even if it’s a temporary address (rented) and obviously re register to the authorities to where ever we finally decide to put roots down.
I will have the required amount of money in savings to cover the amount required by Spanish law, I intend to keep a uk bank account open to.
I will have to look at health insurance for the both of us, I’ve not really looked into this yet. 
I’ve no idea of costs per year for this. 
You say 183 days before we will be expected to start paying tax to the state. 
If we have failed to seek employment after this date, would we be required to still contribute. We would not ask anything from the Spanish state.
Also, I’m thinking of maybe self employed work, or setting up a small business. Do the Spanish operate the same tax system as the uk with regard to self assessment?
Thank you for your advise..... love the bike too, hopefully I’ll get the opportunity to bring mine out too. 

Thanks Jason and Carla


----------



## jay1970

kaipa said:


> Not quite sure what line of work you hope to get but unless you are a high level spanish speaker cant see it being easy.


I’m an electrician/maintenance, fire alarms, emergency lighting engineer 
My Spanish is basic, but will be studying Spanish.
I guess best way to learn is to live it.


----------



## jay1970

xabiaxica said:


> It's only the income requirement level that is different for a non-EU citizen.
> 
> EU citizens need 1 x IPREM (about 6,000€) & non-EU citizens need 4 x IPREM.
> 
> 
> Both need full medical insurance. Both need to register within 90 days of arrival.
> 
> You can indeed register as autónomo (self-employed) & then register as resident. You might be asked to show a few months of SS payments & income when registering.


I like the idea of self employment. Do you know what financial contribution is required and the frequency?

Thanks 

Jason and Carla


----------



## jay1970

Juan C said:


> Re TIE etc
> I have a private meeting, with the British cónsul and the comisario of our local national police regarding registration by U.K. nationals, this week. If I am told of any changes I will report back to the forum
> 
> But don’t hold your breath I do not expect to hear anything new !


That would be appreciated.


----------



## jay1970

xabiaxica said:


> Well we all know that different funcionarios interpret things in different ways.
> 
> 
> There shouldn't really be any difference between the financial requirement for EU citizens, since it's 'supposed' to be 1 x IPREM, yet that doesn't stop offices having very different requirements.
> 
> One guy local to me was taken for his registration appt by a 'gestora' who told him that he & his wife needed to show income of 1200€ per month EACH. (And charged him 200€ per person for the pleasure )
> 
> Another local gestor says that the same office requires 7000€ per annum each, which is what some of my students have had to show.
> 
> Now, whether the first gestora told him a higher figure to be on the safe side, I have no idea, but 1200€ per month each seems way OTT, although a few years back someone was told 10,000€ each at that office. I saw the note they were given & referred them to a gestor I know who took them. Hey presto the requirement was dropped to around 6,000€.


It sounds a little bit like a lottery. I think maybe some representative might help in smoothing these matters out.


----------



## tebo53

jay1970 said:


> Hi Steve
> 
> Thanks for replying.
> I will becoming over in around September, renting initially till we find the right area for us.
> I will register, even if it’s a temporary address (rented) and obviously re register to the authorities to where ever we finally decide to put roots down.
> I will have the required amount of money in savings to cover the amount required by Spanish law, I intend to keep a uk bank account open to.
> I will have to look at health insurance for the both of us, I’ve not really looked into this yet.
> I’ve no idea of costs per year for this.
> You say 183 days before we will be expected to start paying tax to the state.
> If we have failed to seek employment after this date, would we be required to still contribute. We would not ask anything from the Spanish state.
> Also, I’m thinking of maybe self employed work, or setting up a small business. Do the Spanish operate the same tax system as the uk with regard to self assessment?
> Thank you for your advise..... love the bike too, hopefully I’ll get the opportunity to bring mine out too.
> 
> Thanks Jason and Carla


Hi Jason, 
Yes the 183 day rule applies to everyone. You will need to get the correct forms so tax is not paid to the UK but you should also inform HMRC about your move anyway. I expect another poster will inform you better than me about paying taxes being self employed and self assessment. 

On a side note...The weather and roads here always temp you to get out a bit more on your bike but bringing your own over can be very expensive to get re-registered onto Spanish plates etc.

Steve


----------



## Juan C

Jay. “ You say 183 days before we will be expected to start paying tax to the state. If we have failed to seek employment after this date, would we be required to still contribute.”

You seem to be getting confused.

You cannot remain in spain unregistered for more than three months. So if you have not found a job by then you must either register, which requires the income and medical cover previously described, or leave. 

You can then return and stay for a further three months. BUT if the total days you stay in a year exceeds 183 you automatically become tax resident.

If you MOVE to spain, as shown on Blevins Franks web page, you become tax resident immediately. NB. The 183 day rule in that situation is overridden so does not apply.


----------



## Joppa

Juan C
What is the technical difference between moving to Spain and just staying? My intention is to move to Spain and towards the end of the year I will be travelling to Spain and have a winter let, until end of March (4 months), lined up. But I still have a home in UK to return to if I so wish, even though my intention is to stay on with a long-term let after March. So I still retain the option of returning to UK. In this circumstance, will I still be regarded as tax-resident in 2020, or only from 2021 after I've made the move (semi)permanent?


----------



## kaipa

Joppa: you cant stay for more than 3 months without registering for residencia. Once you are a resident the spanish taxman can see you as a tax resident , although it's more likely the 183 rule would apply. If you dont want to pay tax in spain then dont stay for more than 3months and dont register.


----------



## Juan C

Joppa said:


> Juan C
> What is the technical difference between moving to Spain and just staying? My intention is to move to Spain and towards the end of the year I will be travelling to Spain and have a winter let, until end of March (4 months), lined up. But I still have a home in UK to return to if I so wish, even though my intention is to stay on with a long-term let after March. So I still retain the option of returning to UK. In this circumstance, will I still be regarded as tax-resident in 2020, or only from 2021 after I've made the move (semi)permanent?


You explain the difference when you said you will come to spain intending to return to U.K. So not moving to spaIn. . 

Alternatively If you come intending to make it your home and seek work to support that would be moving

Some people to avoid becoming tax resident immediately ‘say’ they are here looking at their options. They are then not tax resident until they they become qualified by taking a job, staying more than 183 days in a year.

That is why there different rules re qualifying for taxation

It is best if you do not over think it. What ifs and what might happen if, just confuse.


----------



## Overandout

When I moved from Thailand to Spain in 2016 it was August.

We purchased an apartment in September and our kids went to school in September. We were obviously living in Spain from August onwards.

Our tax advisors submitted our tax returns as "non-resident" until 31st December (we were still legally tax resident in Thailand until 31st December) and then we became tax resident of Spain 1st January 2017, submitting our first declaración de la renta in April 2018.

There was no issue with Hacienda, they never suggested that we should have become tax residents in August 2016 despite clearly living here.

I'm not saying that I have checked in the tax laws if this is strictly the correct way to do it, but it is the accepted way by the major accounting companies and the Spanish tax man.


----------



## Juan C

Overandout said:


> When I moved from Thailand to Spain in 2016 it was August.
> 
> We purchased an apartment in September and our kids went to school in September. We were obviously living in Spain from August onwards.
> 
> Our tax advisors submitted our tax returns as "non-resident" until 31st December (we were still legally tax resident in Thailand until 31st December) and then we became tax resident of Spain 1st January 2017, submitting our first declaración de la renta in April 2018.
> 
> There was no issue with Hacienda, they never suggested that we should have become tax residents in August 2016 despite clearly living here.
> 
> I'm not saying that I have checked in the tax laws if this is strictly the correct way to do it, but it is the accepted way by the major accounting companies and the Spanish tax man.


That is why I often say one should try to find a professional adviser who knows the law. As you demostrarte some do not. 

If Hacienda had known your situation or discovers it you may be in trouble. They can claim unpaid tax for four clear years and impose penalties, so you are not out of the woods, home and dry, yet !


----------



## Overandout

Juan C said:


> That is why I often say one should try to find a professional adviser who knows the law. As you demostrarte some do not.
> 
> If Hacienda had known your situation or discovers it you may be in trouble. They can claim unpaid tax for four clear years and impose penalties, so you are not out of the woods, home and dry, yet !


Hacienda were, and still are, fully aware of my situation and accepted it at the time. There was even a mistake on one form which resulted in an over-charge in the "non-resident" period which Hacienda returned to me with legal interest added!! 

Of course that makes no difference if they later change their mind as I cannot use that as legal protection.

And by the way, the statute of limitations for tax debts was increased from 4 years to 7 years a while back I believe (in the same reform which introduced the 720 form declaration if I remember correctly).


----------



## Juan C

Sorry if I appear to splitting hairs but unless you or your tax adviser actually told Hacienda that you were resident in Spain, they would not know from a `non-resident tax declaration´ which I guess could only have been a form 210. 

I complete 210s for my son. If he came to live here and we did tell Hacienda that he had taken up residence in Spain, they would not know. 

A 210 submitted to Hacienda is statement that the person paying the tax is non-resident. Thus they accept that, unless they have suspicion it is incorrect / fraudulent. when it would be investigated. A resident cannot submit a 210


If as a resident one pays a similar tax on a property in Spain or anywhere in the world that is included in one resident’s tax declaration made in June. I know, I pay that tax on properties in Philippines and a lock up garage in Spain.


----------



## jay1970

tebo53 said:


> Hi Jason,
> Yes the 183 day rule applies to everyone. You will need to get the correct forms so tax is not paid to the UK but you should also inform HMRC about your move anyway. I expect another poster will inform you better than me about paying taxes being self employed and self assessment.
> 
> On a side note...The weather and roads here always temp you to get out a bit more on your bike but bringing your own over can be very expensive to get re-registered onto Spanish plates etc.
> 
> Steve


Hi Steve, 
Thanks pal, think I will sell mine and see what I can get for my money in Spain.

Cheers


----------



## jay1970

Juan C said:


> Jay. “ You say 183 days before we will be expected to start paying tax to the state. If we have failed to seek employment after this date, would we be required to still contribute.”
> 
> You seem to be getting confused.
> 
> You cannot remain in spain unregistered for more than three months. So if you have not found a job by then you must either register, which requires the income and medical cover previously described, or leave.
> 
> You can then return and stay for a further three months. BUT if the total days you stay in a year exceeds 183 you automatically become tax resident.
> 
> If you MOVE to spain, as shown on Blevins Franks web page, you become tax resident immediately. NB. The 183 day rule in that situation is overridden so does not apply.


Ah I see, yes looks like finding a job, and if not making sure I show I can pay for myself with sufficient funds and of course health care.

Thanks Juan


----------



## Overandout

Juan C said:


> Sorry if I appear to splitting hairs but unless you or your tax adviser actually told Hacienda that you were resident in Spain, they would not know from a `non-resident tax declaration´ which I guess could only have been a form 210.
> 
> I complete 210s for my son. If he came to live here and we did tell Hacienda that he had taken up residence in Spain, they would not know.
> 
> A 210 submitted to Hacienda is statement that the person paying the tax is non-resident. Thus they accept that, unless they have suspicion it is incorrect / fraudulent. when it would be investigated. A resident cannot submit a 210
> 
> 
> If as a resident one pays a similar tax on a property in Spain or anywhere in the world that is included in one resident’s tax declaration made in June. I know, I pay that tax on properties in Philippines and a lock up garage in Spain.


It's not that you're splitting hairs. There's nothing wrong with good debate, and I've not said that you are wrong (except for the 4 years limitation). 
But forgive me if I pay heed to Ernst and Young rather than "some guy on an internet forum". 
I was simply sharing this information so that the OP sees a different view from a professional source.


----------



## jay1970

tebo53 said:


> Hi Jason,
> Yes the 183 day rule applies to everyone. You will need to get the correct forms so tax is not paid to the UK but you should also inform HMRC about your move anyway. I expect another poster will inform you better than me about paying taxes being self employed and self assessment.
> 
> On a side note...The weather and roads here always temp you to get out a bit more on your bike but bringing your own over can be very expensive to get re-registered onto Spanish plates etc.
> 
> Steve


Morning Steve,

Just a quick question I hope you could help with me.
At some point, when settled, I will probably need to apply for a Spanish driving license.
Do they just transfer all relevant parts of the uk license to the Spanish license, or will I be required to do a bike test again? 

Thanks 

Jay


----------



## Juan C

At present one can exchange a U.K. driving licence (all groups) for a Spanish one. However after 31st December 2020 that may not be possible. In that case, just like say Americans, you will be required to take the full driving test


----------



## tebo53

jay1970 said:


> Morning Steve,
> 
> Just a quick question I hope you could help with me.
> At some point, when settled, I will probably need to apply for a Spanish driving license.
> Do they just transfer all relevant parts of the uk license to the Spanish license, or will I be required to do a bike test again?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Jay


Hi Jay,

I agree with Juan that at the moment licences can just be exchanged...if you are a resident. 

If you need to take a test after you settle here it will be all in the Spanish language. 

Steve


----------



## Juan C

Steve. I believe one can take the theory part of the Spanish driving test in english and a few other languages. I know that some years now driving schools offer the theory practice in english


----------



## spain2020

*Spanish Residency after Brexit*

Hello Everyone,

I am looking at moving to Spain probably end of 2021 (usual reasons sick of life in the uk currently, weather, better quality of life etc) obviously brexit is making things a nightmare!! I know the area i would move to & have lived there before for a short period, I should be in a position to be able to buy a property outright and have income from my business in the uk, no kids or anything to worry about so all good from that perspective, my only problem is i will not be able to do this for family/work reasons until 2021 at the absolute earliest.

Is there anything i can do now to give myself a chance at least? Can you apply for residency even if you only spend 2 months a year there atm? Just worry i will have the hard part covered off (property and income) & brexit is guna prevent me from being able to actually live there!!

Would appreciate any advice.

Thanks.


----------



## Overandout

Your safest bet is to become a resident in Spain during this year. This is the only way you can benefit from the terms of the withdraw agreement (effectively the same resident requirements as an EU citizen).
You would of course have to be comfortable with how you will manage your family and work issues whilst being a Spanish resident.

If this is not possible, Brexit will quite likely make it very difficult for you to move afterwards, but you never know. The future is not certain yet.


----------



## Williams2

spain2020 said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> I am looking at moving to Spain probably end of 2021 (usual reasons sick of life in the uk currently, weather, better quality of life etc) obviously brexit is making things a nightmare!! I know the area i would move to & have lived there before for a short period, I should be in a position to be able to buy a property outright and have income from my business in the uk, no kids or anything to worry about so all good from that perspective, my only problem is i will not be able to do this for family/work reasons until 2021 at the absolute earliest.
> 
> Is there anything i can do now to give myself a chance at least? Can you apply for residency even if you only spend 2 months a year there atm? Just worry i will have the hard part covered off (property and income) & brexit is guna prevent me from being able to actually live there!!
> 
> Would appreciate any advice.
> 
> Thanks.


Yes no doubt your not the only one in a pickle about wanting to move to Spain but are held back
due to other commitments in the UK until after the transition period.

You could ( as you suggest ) try overstaying your length of time in Spain this year, in order for you
having to apply for Spanish residency and thus secure your inherited or acquired EU citizen rights
before the end of the transition period.
In which case you would be exploring whether you can work from home ( in your case work from Spain )
in your current business and dovetailing your time in the UK to cover any family needs that require your
presence this year.

Many people work from home over the internet these days and some employers even encourage it.
So speak to your boss as most times they are sympathetic to such arrangements, particularly if
your nearing retirement.

If you can manage that, then the above would be a good workaround for you and its not as if the
above arrangement is for ever but only until you would have been free anyway in 2021.

So think about it.

Otherwise you could still move here as a non EU citizen in 2021, theres nothing to stop you doing that, 
so long as you meet the non EU citizen criteria for taking up residence in Spain.


----------



## MataMata

Overandout said:


> Your safest bet is to become a resident in Spain during this year..


To avoid any misunderstanding to take up residency you do of course need to be living here!


----------



## MataMata

That's changed, or is very soon about to, and everything will be in Spanish. You will not be allowed to have a translator with you on the actual rest either as I believe is sometimes possible now. 

Remember also that you will be classed as a new driver in Spain so will have to go through the probationary period and could quite possibly find yourself having to pay new driver insurance premiums!


----------



## spain2020

Thank you all for the responses, it seems i don't have many options unless i can physically move to Spain this year which is very unlikely. Lets hope the uk and the eu agree something, wont hold my breath though! 

If i was to apply for residency say late this year and use a long term air b n b rental as proof of address n then just flit back n forth until i can physically be there. Does anyone know when i would become tax resident? As in would my earnings from this year automatically be taxed in spain too?


----------



## Williams2

spain2020 said:


> Thank you all for the responses, it seems i don't have many options unless i can physically move to Spain this year which is very unlikely. Lets hope the uk and the eu agree something, wont hold my breath though!
> 
> If i was to apply for residency say late this year and use a long term air b n b rental as proof of address n then just flit back n forth until i can physically be there. Does anyone know when i would become tax resident? As in would my earnings from this year automatically be taxed in spain too?


I know a number of guys who sold their house in the UK and bought in Spain, a year or two before they moved - so why rent
in Spain when you can buy now before you move ?; who knows it might even save you CGT, if it's your main family residence in 
the UK that your selling.

Personally I'd rent the last year or two in the UK rather than Spain.

Some even turned their 2nd home ( holiday home ) in Spain into their permanent residence before they moved.

It could also strengthen your case if your on the borderline on the number of days stay for permanent residency in
Spain this year.


----------



## xabiaxica

spain2020 said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> I am looking at moving to Spain probably end of 2021 (usual reasons sick of life in the uk currently, weather, better quality of life etc) obviously brexit is making things a nightmare!! I know the area i would move to & have lived there before for a short period, I should be in a position to be able to buy a property outright and have income from my business in the uk, no kids or anything to worry about so all good from that perspective, my only problem is i will not be able to do this for family/work reasons until 2021 at the absolute earliest.
> 
> Is there anything i can do now to give myself a chance at least? Can you apply for residency even if you only spend 2 months a year there atm? Just worry i will have the hard part covered off (property and income) & brexit is guna prevent me from being able to actually live there!!
> 
> Would appreciate any advice.
> 
> Thanks.


Just to add to the advice already given, yes you can register this year, but be aware that if you are out of Spain for more than 6 months a year you lose the right to that residency. 

Atm, no real checks are made, & tptb have largely turned a blind eye to those who register & only stay a few months. 

From next Jan of course, passports will be stamped, so checks won't even have to be made. It will be obvious on the passport if someone is out of Spain for more than 6 months a year, & their residency can be revoked.


----------



## spain2020

Williams2 said:


> I know a number of guys who sold their house in the UK and bought in Spain, a year or two before they moved - so why rent
> in Spain when you can buy now before you move; who knows it might even save you CGT if it's your main family residence in
> the UK that your selling.
> 
> Personally I'd rent the last year or two in the UK rather than Spain.
> 
> Some even turned their 2nd home ( holiday home ) in Spain into their permanent residence before they moved.
> 
> It could also strengthen your case if your on the borderline on the number of days stay for permanent residency in
> Spain this year.


My idea is to buy an apartment outright in Spain but keep my UK house, put it on an interest only mortgage, rent out and it will give me a little income on top of the business so CGT shouldn't apply to me until i sell the uk house which hopefully i wont have too. I am more thinking of my 2020 wages as i am paid in dividends and salary in the UK. I am reluctant to buy anything in Spain until i am 100% sure i can live there legally though.


----------



## xabiaxica

spain2020 said:


> My idea is to buy an apartment outright in Spain but keep my UK house, put it on an interest only mortgage, rent out and it will give me a little income on top of the business so CGT shouldn't apply to me until i sell the uk house which hopefully i wont have too. I am more thinking of my 2020 wages as i am paid in dividends and salary in the UK. I am reluctant to buy anything in Spain until i am 100% sure i can live there legally though.


It is of course still possible to move to Spain after the withdrawal period. 

Income requirements are considerably higher though, at around 26,000€ a year for the first applicant, & around 6,000€ a year for each further family member.

That's a non-lucrative visa though. Income from your UK business might be accepted as funds - some consulates do accept that kind of income source. 

There's no way of knowing if the UK Spanish Consulate will though. They've never had to issue visas for Brits before!


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## kaipa

It will be impossible for someone with even B1 to manage the test. Sorry but let's not beat around the bush. If you plan on living in spain after Brexit you will either have to hope they make some kind of change or live without a car. You are not going to aveanything like the level of Spanish required to pass. Put like this. Are you prepared to allow a Spanish person with zero English , who lives in uk, to drive. What happens if there is an accident? How can they understand motorway warnings etc. The UK made it quite clear it wants to limit the number of non uk nationals living in the country. So we have to accept the same treatment in Spain. Let's consider ourselves lucky: in uk all potential new migrants from EU cou tries will require English!!


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## xabiaxica

kaipa said:


> *It will be impossible for someone with even B1 to manage the test.* Sorry but let's not beat around the bush. If you plan on living in spain after Brexit you will either have to hope they make some kind of change or live without a car. You are not going to aveanything like the level of Spanish required to pass. Put like this. Are you prepared to allow a Spanish person with zero English , who lives in uk, to drive. What happens if there is an accident? How can they understand motorway warnings etc. The UK made it quite clear it wants to limit the number of non uk nationals living in the country. So we have to accept the same treatment in Spain. Let's consider ourselves lucky: in uk all potential new migrants from EU cou tries will require English!!


Yes, if indeed they do stop the written part of the test being in English (& why shouldn't they?)

However as it stands atm, I know many English speakers with very rudimentary Spanish who have passed the test.


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## kaipa

Yes but that is because at moment you can do it in English and then with a translator


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## tebo53

kaipa said:


> Yes but that is because at moment you can do it in English and then with a translator



And don't forget that these answers are for the op who is not yet living in Spain. 

Steve


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## snikpoh

kaipa said:


> Yes but that is because at moment you can do it in English and then with a translator


Around here (away from the coast), it isn't available in English.

However, many Brits/foreigners that I know with really poor Spanish have managed to pass it.


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## Juan C

*Post Brexit*

Just for interest 

I was present at a meeting with the Malaga British Consul yesterday in the office of the chief of national police in my town. They both said there were no new developments, nor certainty about what is going to happen. 
The police said they expected it would require a six period of `adjustment´as from 1st January, 2021, to allow whatever the necessary paperwork work is, registration, etc. to be achieved.

The number of new applications for EU Citizen Registration have dropped off so I assume most people who had to regularise their position have done it now. It means appointments should now be easier to make.


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## Juan C

_"Yes, if indeed they do stop the written part of the test being in English (& why shouldn't they?)"_

I sort of agree, however there are a lot of non Spanish who are not English, who rely on English as their lengua franca.


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## Megsmum

spain2020 said:


> Thank you all for the responses, it seems i don't have many options unless i can physically move to Spain this year which is very unlikely. Lets hope the uk and the eu agree something, wont hold my breath though!
> 
> If i was to apply for residency say late this year and use a long term air b n b rental as proof of address n then just flit back n forth until i can physically be there. Does anyone know when i would become tax resident? As in would my earnings from this year automatically be taxed in spain too?


You are tax resident if you stay for 180 OR you intended to make and have made IE gained residency


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## Juan C

Megsmum said:


> You are tax resident if you stay for 180 OR you intended to make and have made IE gained residency


If you want to register as a resident in Spain, then you have to be resident in SPAIN

If you do apply after Brexit, as now, if you own a property in Spain that can be used to prove you have suficient funds, 26,000 etc


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## Megsmum

Juan C said:


> If you want to register as a resident in Spain, then you have to be resident in SPAIN
> 
> If you do apply after Brexit, as now, if you own a property in Spain that can be used to prove you have suficient funds, 26,000 etc


I know,I was responding to the question 



> f i was to apply for residency say late this year and use a long term air b n b rental as proof of address n then just flit back n forth until i can physically be there. Does anyone know when i would become tax resident? As in would my earnings from this year automatically be taxed in spain too?


Regardless of whether or not the poster “flits” back and forth they will be, by gaining residency by the back door, be elegible for taxes

Can you give me a link for the bit highlighted in red? I never knew that a property could be used as proof of funds?


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## Juan C

Hi megsmum I don’t have the time to search now but I know the financial qualification says income or assets. 

I was present when an unemployed common law partner without any assets of her own, was approved by showing that her partner owned a property. She was interviewed by the sub inspector in charge of the Extranjería. I was assisting with translation.

PS extract from
https://balcellsgroup.com/move-to-spain-as-an-eu-citizen/

“As a general rule, you can use an income statement, work contract, poof of your assets, etc. “


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## Williams2

tebo53 said:


> And don't forget that these answers are for the op who is not yet living in Spain.
> 
> Steve


Who is the OP anyway ? - is it Pipeman who started this thread or Spain2020 who was the last one
to have his post merged onto this thread ?


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## xabiaxica

Williams2 said:


> Who is the OP anyway ? - is it Pipeman who started this thread or Spain2020 who was the last one
> to have his post merged onto this thread ?


Who knows 

If members would use the quote button it would help


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## Juan C

xabiaxica said:


> Williams2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who is the OP anyway ? - is it Pipeman who started this thread or Spain2020 who was the last one
> to have his post merged onto this thread ?
> 
> 
> 
> Who knows
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If members would use the quote button it would help
Click to expand...

Sorry this off thread but seemed a good time to ask

When I want to quote just say the last post, “re using the quote button” how can I do that without including Williams post too?

I try sometime to carefully edit the quote to delete the part I do not want but that is time consuming and sometimes result on the quote being deleted too

Thank you
Ps no idea where the ‘broken image’ bit came from


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## xabiaxica

Juan C said:


> Sorry this off thread but seemed a good time to ask
> 
> When I want to quote just say the last post, “re using the quote button” how can I do that without including Williams post too?
> 
> I try sometime to carefully edit the quote to delete the part I do not want but that is time consuming and sometimes result on the quote being deleted too
> 
> Thank you
> Ps no idea where the ‘broken image’ bit came from


I have no idea - because when I use the quote button it only quotes the post that I'm quoting!

As for the 'image' - do you have smilies disabled?


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## Juan C

xabiaxica said:


> Juan C said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry this off thread but seemed a good time to ask
> 
> When I want to quote just say the last post, “re using the quote button” how can I do that without including Williams post too?
> 
> I try sometime to carefully edit the quote to delete the part I do not want but that is time consuming and sometimes result on the quote being deleted too
> 
> Thank you
> Ps no idea where the ‘broken image’ bit came from
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea - because when I use the quote button it only quotes the post that I'm quoting!
> 
> As for the 'image' - do you have smilies disabled?
Click to expand...

Thank you, maybe it is because I am using my iPhone. I know when I use my PC the functions are slightly different. 

Thanks again. John


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## Megsmum

Juan C said:


> Sorry this off thread but seemed a good time to ask
> 
> When I want to quote just say the last post, “re using the quote button” how can I do that without including Williams post too?
> 
> I try sometime to carefully edit the quote to delete the part I do not want but that is time consuming and sometimes result on the quote being deleted too
> 
> Thank you
> Ps no idea where the ‘broken image’ bit came from


Like this ?


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## Megsmum

Williams2 said:


> Who is the OP anyway ? - is it Pipeman who started this thread or Spain2020 who was the last one
> to have his post merged onto this thread ?





Juan C said:


> Sorry this off thread but seemed a good time to ask
> 
> When I want to quote just say the last post, “re using the quote button” how can I do that without including Williams post too?
> 
> I try sometime to carefully edit the quote to delete the part I do not want but that is time consuming and sometimes result on the quote being deleted too
> 
> Thank you
> Ps no idea where the ‘broken image’ bit came from


or like this


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## Juan C

Juan C said:


> Thank you, maybe it is because I am using my iPhone. I know when I use my PC the functions are slightly different.
> 
> Thanks again. John


I am on my PC and yes I was right. I have just the last item from the post. 

thanks


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## CarolineBud

Hi Barrie
Sorry for the daft Q. Can you open a Spanish bank account before getting residency? We expected to do this once we were over in Spain? Advice welcome.


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## Juan C

Yes you can but technically you need an NIE. That is a fiscal ID number. Some banks will let you open an account but will expect you to get the number before you can operate the account. 

Of course some people will tell some banks do it differently !


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## suiko

hello again

OK, well now I have a job offer, as an English teacher.

However, the salary is a quarter of what I earn now in the UK, and I'm not wildly enthusiastic about the job (it's what I did 25 years ago).

My question is:

What fundamental rights will I get now by making the financial sacrifice of moving now, in order to preserve (some of) my rights as an EU citizen under the WA, rights which I would not have if I were to retire to Spain in 3 or 4 years time?

*I would really appreciate it if someone could specify what specific advantage there would be in moving this year. *

I know that on a retirement visa I'd need to prove a relatively high level of income, and that I wouldn't be able to work formally (not so much of an issue as I'm 56 and not keen to be an EFL teacher in a school, which is pretty much the only option available). And that this type of visa would need to be renewed regularly. Is there anything else?


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## xabiaxica

suiko said:


> hello again
> 
> OK, well now I have a job offer, as an English teacher.
> 
> However, the salary is a quarter of what I earn now in the UK, and I'm not wildly enthusiastic about the job (it's what I did 25 years ago).
> 
> My question is:
> 
> What fundamental rights will I get now by making the financial sacrifice of moving now, in order to preserve (some of) my rights as an EU citizen under the WA, rights which I would not have if I were to retire to Spain in 3 or 4 years time?
> 
> *I would really appreciate it if someone could specify what specific advantage there would be in moving this year. *
> 
> I know that on a retirement visa I'd need to prove a relatively high level of income, and that I wouldn't be able to work formally (not so much of an issue as I'm 56 and not keen to be an EFL teacher in a school, which is pretty much the only option available). And that this type of visa would need to be renewed regularly. Is there anything else?



In your position as far as the job is concerned, the main advantage is that you would have to get a work visa next year, or rather the company would have to on your behalf.

This isn't a cheap nor straightforward process & they are only issued if the company can prove that no EU citizen os available for the job. 


If you were coming on a retirement visa you wouldn't be permitted to work in any case. 

If you can fulfil the requirements of a retirement visa, & continue to do so, & also have no wish to work - then there's no real advantage to coming this year over next, apart from the fact that you would have to keep renewing the visa, whereas under the WA you wouldn't have to.


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## Alcalaina

The only other thing I can think of is that if you register as resident before the transition period ends, your right to change your residency status from EU citizen to 3rd country national is guaranteed. There's no guarantee what requirements might be in place for 3rd country nationals in a few years' time.


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## Overandout

Alcalaina said:


> The only other thing I can think of is that if you register as resident before the transition period ends, your right to change your residency status from EU citizen to 3rd country national is guaranteed. There's no guarantee what requirements might be in place for 3rd country nationals in a few years' time.


I think Suiko is planning to come this year. So the advantage you mention is the main one.

And although I'm not sure how it really is or will be for a pensioner to come over on a retirement visa after Jan 1st, I'm pretty sure that working here as a beneficiary of the withdraw agreement is going to be quite favourable. It will be virtually impossible for them to change that status in the future (or so it seems now) so by taking the job and coming over this year is as close to a guarantee of never needing a visa as you will get.

By the way Suiko, you make it sound like earning 25% of your UK salary is a kick in the teeth, but really, getting any job offer in Spain is a good result assuming it's a legal contract of employment. My first job in Spain when I arrived paid about 15% of the UK salary I left behind, so you'd be way ahead of me!


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## baldilocks

Overandout said:


> I think Suiko is planning to come this year. So the advantage you mention is the main one.
> 
> And although I'm not sure how it really is or will be for a pensioner to come over on a retirement visa after Jan 1st, I'm pretty sure that working here as a beneficiary of the withdraw agreement is going to be quite favourable. It will be virtually impossible for them to change that status in the future (or so it seems now) so by taking the job and coming over this year is as close to a guarantee of never needing a visa as you will get.
> 
> By the way Suiko, you make it sound like earning 25% of your UK salary is a kick in the teeth, but really, getting any job offer in Spain is a good result assuming it's a legal contract of employment. My first job in Spain when I arrived paid about 15% of the UK salary I left behind, so you'd be way ahead of me!


and even getting ANY job here is a bonus when one considers the high level of unemployment amongst native Spaniards.


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## suiko

Thank you all for the really useful replies. 

I wouldn't mind so much about the miserable pay if I could muster any enthusiasm whatsoever for the work itself! And I'm trying to calculate how working another 4 years or so here would affect my finances - esp given the fairly high probability of 20K redundancy money during those 4 years.

So am I right in summing up these as the advantages of moving this year?

1. guaranteed long-term status with guaranteed route to citizenship in due course

2. right to work in future if needs be

3. inflation-proofing of UK pension


Health insurance not really an issue as I'm going to have to pay for private anyway.


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## Lynn R

suiko said:


> Health insurance not really an issue as I'm going to have to pay for private anyway.


It may not be now, but once you reach retirement age, if you cannot get an S1 from the UK because you were not already registered as a resident in Spain by 31 December 2020, the cost of private health insurance will increase greatly. Even if you access public healthcare by paying into the Convenio, the cost increases from €60 per month for someone aged 65 to €157 per month for someone aged 65 or over - and as xabiachica said earlier, in addition you'd have to pay 100% of the costs of any medication you'd need, whereas with the S1 you qualify to pay only 10% when you become a pensioner (and that's capped at €8 per month for those whose income is below €18k per year or €18 per month for incomes between €18-100k.

It's a real Catch-22 situation for you, unfortunately. I really wouldn't recommend anyone to reduce their earnings so drastically in the years leading up to their retirement unless they had enough of a financial cushion to cover the shortfall, and you have to think beyond your retirement date to make sure your income in retirement would be at least adequate.


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## xabiaxica

suiko said:


> Thank you all for the really useful replies.
> 
> I wouldn't mind so much about the miserable pay if I could muster any enthusiasm whatsoever for the work itself! And I'm trying to calculate how working another 4 years or so here would affect my finances - esp given the fairly high probability of 20K redundancy money during those 4 years.
> 
> So am I right in summing up these as the advantages of moving this year?
> 
> 1. guaranteed long-term status with guaranteed route to citizenship in due course
> 
> 2. right to work in future if needs be
> 
> 3. inflation-proofing of UK pension
> 
> 
> Health insurance not really an issue as I'm going to have to pay for private anyway.


#1 - the route to citizenship is the same whether you are an EU citizen or not, so is unaffected by Brexit & the WA.


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## kaipa

You are 56 and thinking of 10 years doing a job that you admit you dont feel that enthusiastic about for a wage that is 25 % below what you already earn. You have a possibility of a 20 k redundancy package. Think about it. That's 20k in the bank. You have no chance of saving anything in Spain. With 20k you could easily stay 3 months a year in Spain enjoying different parts and living in different areas. Plus you have healthcare in the UK where you will feel comfortable with the language. In Spain you are just going to get worked to the bone just to pay your bills. Also maybe you will inherit something in the future in the UK. If you are resident in spain you will be taxed in UK and Spain. Not great if you wish to be able to retire and enjoy a bit of life instead of just survive.


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## suiko

kaipa said:


> You are 56 and thinking of 10 years doing a job that you admit you dont feel that enthusiastic about for a wage that is 25 % below what you already earn. You have a possibility of a 20 k redundancy package. Think about it. That's 20k in the bank. You have no chance of saving anything in Spain. With 20k you could easily stay 3 months a year in Spain enjoying different parts and living in different areas. Plus you have healthcare in the UK where you will feel comfortable with the language. In Spain you are just going to get worked to the bone just to pay your bills. Also maybe you will inherit something in the future in the UK. If you are resident in spain you will be taxed in UK and Spain. Not great if you wish to be able to retire and enjoy a bit of life instead of just survive.


Thanks. I can see where you're coming from, but I hate what Britain has become and just want out for good. I don't want to have to buy a house in the UK - which will mean selling the one I have and plan to rent out, which will probably amount to at least half my income - when I just don't want to be here at all!


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## suiko

Lynn R said:


> It may not be now, but once you reach retirement age, if you cannot get an S1 from the UK because you were not already registered as a resident in Spain by 31 December 2020, the cost of private health insurance will increase greatly. Even if you access public healthcare by paying into the Convenio, the cost increases from €60 per month for someone aged 65 to €157 per month for someone aged 65 or over - and as xabiachica said earlier, in addition you'd have to pay 100% of the costs of any medication you'd need, whereas with the S1 you qualify to pay only 10% when you become a pensioner (and that's capped at €8 per month for those whose income is below €18k per year or €18 per month for incomes between €18-100k.
> 
> It's a real Catch-22 situation for you, unfortunately. I really wouldn't recommend anyone to reduce their earnings so drastically in the years leading up to their retirement unless they had enough of a financial cushion to cover the shortfall, and you have to think beyond your retirement date to make sure your income in retirement would be at least adequate.


Thanks. So S1 is continuing to be issued when people reach retirement age? But only to those who were present in EU before Dec 2020, right?

On another note, does anyone know whether the pension updating arrangement (which again only seems to apply for those present in EU before Dec 2020) will continue to apply if one later moves to another EU country?


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## Joppa

suiko said:


> Thanks. So S1 is continuing to be issued when people reach retirement age? But only to those who were present in EU before Dec 2020, right?


Yes and yes (in a specific EU country).



> On another note, does anyone know whether the pension updating arrangement (which again only seems to apply for those present in EU before Dec 2020) will continue to apply if one later moves to another EU country?


No, only while you remain a Spanish resident. All this is subject to ongoing negotiation with EU, but if no further agreement is reached, the status quo will remain.


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## Megsmum

Joppa said:


> Yes and yes (in a specific EU country).
> 
> 
> 
> No, only while you remain a Spanish resident. All this is subject to ongoing negotiation with EU, but if no further agreement is reached, the status quo will remain.


Sorry OP jumping in your thread

So, for those under retirement age BUT who are now Legally resident in Spain, will receive S1 cover when they retire?


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## Lynn R

Megsmum said:


> Sorry OP jumping in your thread
> 
> So, for those under retirement age BUT who are now Legally resident in Spain, will receive S1 cover when they retire?


Yes they will, provided they were registered as residents in Spain by 31 December 2020.


----------



## Williams2

suiko said:


> Thank you all for the really useful replies.
> 
> I wouldn't mind so much about the miserable pay if I could muster any enthusiasm whatsoever for the work itself! And I'm trying to calculate how working another 4 years or so here would affect my finances - esp given the fairly high probability of 20K redundancy money during those 4 years.
> 
> So am I right in summing up these as the advantages of moving this year?
> 
> 1. guaranteed long-term status with guaranteed route to citizenship in due course
> 
> 2. right to work in future if needs be
> 
> 3. inflation-proofing of UK pension
> 
> 
> Health insurance not really an issue as I'm going to have to pay for private anyway.


The route to citizenship is by no means guaranteed as I know several British Expats who moved to Spain some years
ago and still cannot get to grips with the Spanish lingo - a couple of them tried for Spanish citizenship and failed
miserably on the language test.


----------



## kaipa

suiko said:


> kaipa said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are 56 and thinking of 10 years doing a job that you admit you dont feel that enthusiastic about for a wage that is 25 % below what you already earn. You have a possibility of a 20 k redundancy package. Think about it. That's 20k in the bank. You have no chance of saving anything in Spain. With 20k you could easily stay 3 months a year in Spain enjoying different parts and living in different areas. Plus you have healthcare in the UK where you will feel comfortable with the language. In Spain you are just going to get worked to the bone just to pay your bills. Also maybe you will inherit something in the future in the UK. If you are resident in spain you will be taxed in UK and Spain. Not great if you wish to be able to retire and enjoy a bit of life instead of just survive.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks. I can see where you're coming from, but I hate what Britain has become and just want out for good. I don't want to have to buy a house in the UK - which will mean selling the one I have and plan to rent out, which will probably amount to at least half my income - when I just don't want to be here at all!
Click to expand...

I understand what you think but I believe you are subject to a psychological mind game. There is nothing substantially different in the UK than 30 years ago. Sure , it seems bad depending on your political stance but that has and will always be the case. I think the press in the uk has turned all news into a form of entertainment so horror stories and exaggeration are the norm. Expats often say that things are better in Spain but that is because they probably understand 1 % of what is really happening . Politically, at the moment, Spain has a left wing government after years of a terribly corrupt nepotistic right wing government. But it is unlikely that the present government will survive a full term as it relies on a constantly shifting coalition. Meanwhile in the wings there is a seriously worrying ultra- right gearing up for a fight. Add in chronic unemployment which is only going to get worse and a staggering state debt and things are probably much worse than the uk. If you choose to integrate into spain then you might, like many young Spanish, end up dreaming of a life in UK or Australia.


----------



## Megsmum

Lynn R said:


> Yes they will, provided they were registered as residents in Spain by 31 December 2020.


Thanks Lynn that’s great, I thought it was the case but I lost track of Brexit somewhere along the line.


----------



## 95995

kaipa said:


> I understand what you think but I believe you are subject to a psychological mind game. There is nothing substantially different in the UK than 30 years ago. Sure , it seems bad depending on your political stance but that has and will always be the case. I think the press in the uk has turned all news into a form of entertainment so horror stories and exaggeration are the norm. Expats often say that things are better in Spain but that is because they probably understand 1 % of what is really happening . Politically, at the moment, Spain has a left wing government after years of a terribly corrupt nepotistic right wing government. But it is unlikely that the present government will survive a full term as it relies on a constantly shifting coalition. Meanwhile in the wings there is a seriously worrying ultra- right gearing up for a fight. Add in chronic unemployment which is only going to get worse and a staggering state debt and things are probably much worse than the uk.* If you choose to integrate into spain then you might, like many young Spanish, end up dreaming of a life in UK or Australia.*


Suiko would be able to return to the UK, OTOH she, like many young Spanish, might as well forget about a move to Australia, in fact for her it would be impossible because of her age.


----------



## suiko

No issues there, at least - I'm pretty much bilingual.


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## kaipa

suiko said:


> No issues there, at least - I'm pretty much bilingual.


If you are bilingual why are you limiting yourself to English teaching ? There are plenty of better paid jobs if you are bilingual. My ex was offered a job when we went as clients to a lawyer. They started her immediately on everything from reception, translations, interpreting. She earns double the salary of a full time teacher


----------



## 95995

kaipa said:


> If you are bilingual why are you limiting yourself to English teaching ? There are plenty of better paid jobs if you are bilingual. My ex was offered a job when we went as clients to a lawyer. They started her immediately on everything from reception, translations, interpreting. She earns double the salary of a full time teacher


Well suiko had not yet arrived in Spain. Perhaps she will find something similar after she arrives.


----------

