# hijacked off topic debate



## Meritorious-MasoMenos (Apr 17, 2014)

Nononymous said:


> Much depends on circumstances, of course. The full expat deal usually includes relocation and housing assistance, possibly school fees if the kids require an international school. Health insurance should be included with the job anyway.
> 
> Personally I would be wary of the ship-everything-you-own approach, if it is offered. That generally means living like a North American - having to rent a big enough house to store the overabundance of crap. It's not the best way to experience Europe. (Friends in London did this, had a huge place miles out of town because the employer sent over a full container with the entire contents of their house in the US. I think they ultimately regretted the decision.) I would rather reduce and store what I had at home, come over very light and rent a furnished apartment near the center of whichever city I was living in. If you can do without a car, even better. However, international schools are generally closer to where the expats live in big houses.
> 
> As for school, if your kids are young enough, throw them in the public system and let them learn German. If not, then it's fee-paying international schools, with a few exceptions like the JFK school in Berlin.


Nsinclair says he has a wife and children. I don't know about that advice on cooping up his children in a tiny apartment just to be near the center of things, more convenient for adults. Most family people would prefer that big house so that their children have safe places to play, and especially to be nearer their schools. Also a strange bit of wording on that advice: "Throw them in the public system." Dogs would get a better shift from most people. I myself always try to give advice according to what poster requests, rather than trying to convert them to my way of life, but heck, Nsinclair could agree 100% with you.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

Treating my daughter worse than a dog worked out quite well for her, she speaks very good German now, has many friends in Berlin, and greatly enjoyed the experience of going to Gymnasium. 

In relatively civilized countries like Germany, the public system is perfectly good, and if learning the local language and culture is important to you, putting your kids into public school is the best way to achieve that. If you'd prefer that they only socialize with English-speaking expats, choose an international school. Obviously if they can't go straight into high school in the local language if they don't already speak it. Note that the OP did not mention the age or language skills of his/her children.

Where to live is of course a personal choice, but clearly generations of European children have survived the horrible abuse of being "cooped up" in apartments, unable to go outside because all those public playgrounds on every corner are so terribly unsafe. In my experience, urban Berlin was a terrific place to have a child of any age. Tons of things to do, awesome parks and playgrounds and sports facilities close by, and guess what, they learn very early to get around cities by themselves. (I'd take that over sprawling North American suburbs, with their overweight, overprotected children being shuttled back forth in cars all day long.)

I was giving helpful advice here - if you move to Europe, don't automatically assume you should live like it's North America. Not sure why that counts as trying to convert someone to "my way of life". Though perhaps it's not cool to challenge the assumptions of the suburban lifestyle when kids are involved?

PS Until recently our Berlin apartments generally had more floor space than our Canadian houses.


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos (Apr 17, 2014)

Nononymous said:


> Treating my daughter worse than a dog worked out quite well for her, she speaks very good German now, has many friends in Berlin, and greatly enjoyed the experience of going to Gymnasium.
> 
> In relatively civilized countries like Germany, the public system is perfectly good, and if learning the local language and culture is important to you, putting your kids into public school is the best way to achieve that. If you'd prefer that they only socialize with English-speaking expats, choose an international school. Obviously if they can't go straight into high school in the local language if they don't already speak it. Note that the OP did not mention the age or language skills of his/her children.
> 
> ...


I lived half my life outside the U.S.. As a single guy, I loved living totally within the local culture. Before I went back overseas with a family, I talked to a few friends, Americans, who grew up overseas as children of diplomats or businessmen (only men in those days). Without a single quibble, every single one said that the worst aspect is that they didn't feel American, they didn't feel part of the main other country they grew up in, that they felt they were drifting, homeless, whether they lived in America or elsewhere.

Therefore, you are speaking with apparent knowledge of only one generation living overseas, you. I was more fortunate in seeking wide advice, before the advent of such forums as expats. I put my children into American schools overseas, had them stay with my family back in the States most of all summers, and you know what, much as I myself was totally at home living overseas, came back once the oldest started hitting mid-grammar school. Not because I wanted them to be 100% American, but because I wanted them to feel 100% SOMETHING. Not, some kids may be able to handle feeling shiftless. I sure can myself. But I didn't want to risk it. And all three of my kids are very well adjusted, though all three are using their foreign child hood experience, especially the language they grew up using, in their professional lives.

Again, this forum should be for giving advice, not for pushing one's own agenda. You hate America, fine, bulley for you. You want to present yourself as a European sophisticate, and anyone who wants to maintain ties to the U.S. a boob, great for you. But when a person comes on the forum and ask advice, let's just give him advice on what he is concerned about.

Again, OP didn't come back to give more details on his family? You all may be right in advising him to get a cramped apartment and "throw" his kids into a German school in order to let the parents enjoy a short commute and a pleasurable urban life. Then that is the advice we should offer him.

I was just saying we should seek more information before we give such advice and shouldn't be telling him, especially as it's his first overseas assignment, to ditch everything American, especially concerning his kids.

I do like your advice on treating some humans worse then your dog. Not my daughter, but close. I will remember that advice and thanks.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

Wow, touchy. Odd reason to get your panties into a knot. Can't imagine why you'd be so defensive. 

I actually thought I gave pretty dispassionate advice there, not pushing a personal agenda at all; I merely suggested looking at different options rather than making assumptions about the necessity of replicating all aspects of your previous life when you move to a new environment. (As extreme statements go, I don't think that ranks anywhere close to the broad assertion that children need to live in a house so they have a safe place to play - from which well of paranoia did that spring?) 

PS You'll note I said "North America" not "America" - my dislike of suburban life applies equally to both sides of the border.

PPS We lived in the heart of Berlin because of our daughter, not in spite of her. It turned out rather well; she seems quite well adjusted, despite her not being loved as much as most dogs. (Don't be an ass.)


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

Getting away from the craziness and back to the original point, I think the approach a family takes to education and expat life in general will depend on, obviously, the destination, the duration of the assignment, the age and quantity of any children, and the local-language skills of both the parents and children. 

For two years in Germany, based purely on our own positive experiences over several stays of varying lengths in Berlin (rather than, apparently, my hatred of the US) I would recommend at least considering the option of putting younger children into a local public school or daycare, and living in a relatively streamlined, urban fashion if that is indeed convenient to the parental commute(s). Obviously there will be challenges communicating with school staff if the parents speak no German, so that is a factor to consider. 

Again, purely anecdotal and speculative, based only on a few sighs when we talked about it, I also think our friends might have enjoyed their time in London more if they weren't halfway into the countryside in a big house full of all their stuff from home, and their kids might well have benefited from the cultural experience of going to a British school for a few years, instead of the American expat school.

PS One more thing...



nsinclair2 said:


> What benefits should I be looking for from the company for myself and my family, including spouse and children, when considering to take an offer?





Meritorious-MasoMenos said:


> Nsinclair says he has a wife and children.


Why would you assume that the OP is male? Last time I checked, women were allowed to work, and sometimes they even get sent on overseas assignments and bring their husbands and children with them.


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## Meritorious-MasoMenos (Apr 17, 2014)

Re: Nono's "Why would you assume that the OP is male? Last time I checked, women were allowed to work, and sometimes they even get sent on overseas assignments and bring their husbands and children with them."

Uh, sure, so what? You again seem to want to win "sophisticate" points. I'd say there's still a 90% chance he is a guy, though apparently de/she doesn't check in often yet. But again, if you win this point, what difference does it make to the arguments?

For example, do your children feel Canadian, or German? Or, half of both? All are fine outcomes. It might help the OP, if SHE checks in again, though. That's why we answer, to help the posters. I gave one view, if an expat wants HER children to retain the nationality of the poster. Yours is equally valid, and more details of how they turned out, in how they sense their nationality or lack there, is all I'm talking about.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

It's rude to make assumptions about gender. Or sexual orientation - women bring partners, not husbands. My bad.

Our daughter feels herself to be completely Canadian. But she is very comfortable operating in German culture, loves Berlin, and plans to return regularly in the years to come. (Her first solo trip back, at 14, will be a week visiting school friends in December.) I would suggest that children who spend a couple of years abroad aren't likely to suffer crises of identity for the rest of their lives.

The rootlessness that you fear is I think more common among diplomatic kids and long-term expats - yes I've met people like that myself - which I suspect has much to do with either the constant movement or spending an entire childhood between two cultures. You also find similar issues with military children who never leave the US but move every year.

I really don't think that a two-year assignment would lead to children feeling less American for the rest of their days, regardless of which school they attend (particularly as they'd need to be relatively young to cope with language immersion at a local school). Nor is their sense of national identity likely to diminish if they are deprived by selfish parents and confined to a spacious apartment near safe public parks and playgrounds, rather than living in a proper house. I'm not sure why this has you so worked up, to be honest.

The OP is long gone, I'm just arguing with a cranky defensive nutjob for fun, but also would like others doing research to be aware of my original-original point: shipping your entire household by container - which can be offered in a relocation package - is not necessarily the best course of action, particularly for a shorter stay. At least consider the alternative.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

Odd...


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## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

I am going to close this thread as everything has been said.

I must say I am a bit bewildered.


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