# Healthcare once permanent resident



## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I dare say we have covered this but after 5 years and you are automatically a permanent resident is healthcare free irrespective of work, pension etc?


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Not as far as I'm aware. But hopefully someone will come along and tell me I'm wrong


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Does permanent residence = free healthcare?


I think it has recently changed and every UK national irrespective of place of residence will receive free NHS healthcare. Only if covered by the S1 if they live outside the UK.




www.expatforum.com


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I only ask as ( yet again) the UK government website says that once a permanent resident you have the same rights as to healthcare as Spanish residents.

"If you’ve been a resident in Spain for 5 years or more, you can apply for permanent residency. This will give you access to state healthcare on the same basis as a Spanish citizen."

I thought that you dont have free healthcare even if permanent resident but I just received a Facebook ad from a lawyer which stated that you would only need to pay for healthcare as an expat for 5 years and then referred to the government website.
What happens if you have made contributions and then stop working? Again does your free healthcare terminate or continue? I thought it was 3 months


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

kaipa said:


> I only ask as ( yet again) the UK government website says that once a permanent resident you have the same rights as to healthcare as Spanish residents.
> 
> "If you’ve been a resident in Spain for 5 years or more, you can apply for permanent residency. This will give you access to state healthcare on the same basis as a Spanish citizen."


I have now heard on a couple of FB groups of people who claim to have secured healthcare on this basis.

The only way to find out for sure I guess is to apply!


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

xabiaxica said:


> I have now heard on a couple of FB groups of people who claim to have secured healthcare on this basis.
> 
> The only way to find out for suer I guess is to apply!


Yes this is why I asked as my Facebook is basically saying the same thing - that after 5 years it's free!! I suppose most folk here get it through their S1 so we probably dont have many who have been here for 5 years and are still not at retirement age. Anyone know anyone who can confirm it?


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

This is exaclty the same as the thread XC linked to above. The UK Gov site has stated this for a long time and many associations repeat it, including CAB Spain. Nothing has changed.

It does appear to work (if the Facebook claims are to be believed), but nobody has ever shown any documentary proof of it being true nor explained the basis in Spanish law for the claim.

If you do try it, please let us know how it goes, for me it is a matter of pure curiosity from a legal standpoint.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

kaipa said:


> Yes this is why I asked as my Facebook is basically saying the same thing - that after 5 years it's free!! I suppose most folk here get it through their S1 so we probably dont have many who have been here for 5 years and are still not at retirement age. Anyone know anyone who can confirm it?


I don't know anyone personally.

It won't apply to me (work, much longer term resident) , but if I ever meet anyone I'll post on the sticky thread.


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## Relyat (Sep 29, 2013)

We tried in Valencia in 2015 and despite the support and help of the social work dept, were refused. 
Tried again in Denia in 2018, where we were kindly informed that it simply didn't happen. 
I've heard of it being granted, but only to a friend of Bill's uncle, or some such. 
It's all anecdotal, no proof forthcoming.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

So if you have worked for more than 5 years ( contributed) and have permanent residency do you then qualify for free healthcare ?. By that, I mean if you stopped working.  Does INSS stop your healthcare?


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

kaipa said:


> So if you have worked for more than 5 years ( contributed) and have permanent residency do you then qualify for free healthcare ?. By that, I mean if you stopped working. Does INSS stop your healthcare?


Yes

When I was diagnosed with cancer last year, I had to stop work. Because I had autónomos insurance, €3 pm I was allowed to go baja.. until medically fit to return to work , no payments and retain healthcare. 
But. If I'd just "stopped". After three months my rights to healthcare stop. I've been here for nearly eight years


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Megsmum said:


> Yes
> 
> When I was diagnosed with cancer last year, I had to stop work. Because I had autónomos insurance, €3 pm I was allowed to go baja.. until medically fit to return to work , no payments and retain healthcare.
> But. If I'd just "stopped". After three months my rights to healthcare stop. I've been here for nearly eight years


Interesting. So clearly the suggestion that 5 years gives you free healthcare is not true. So the rule is that Spanish citizens get free healthcare but residents only get if contributing or it is effectively paid via S1( UK nats)? Will folk arriving with NLV have to always be paying for healthcare ( convenio) or does the S1 arrangement continue?


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

This is a bit "deja vu" but anyway, the problem is that the free health care for immigrants is a "vicious circle".

You are entitled to free health care if you have a document which entitles you to reside in Spain and are not covered by any other form of affiliation to the health service. So in theory a UK citizen in Spain who has never made contributions could use this rule to become covered.
The problem is that the law says that the person who uses this right must comply with the requirements of that document which give the right to reside. For anyone except refugees, those requirements include having private health cover, or an S1 or equivalent... 
This is what I don't understand about those who claim to have got the cover. Have they declared that they do not have the obligatory private cover required by Spain's immigration law? It is of course possible, but it is not something I would be happy doing.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Here's a machine translation of the relevant section of the Spanish seguridad social website. Spain does now have 99.99% universal free healthcare - even those not registered as resident. The exceptions are stated near the end of the page. 


> *Who is entitled to receive medical assistance from the Social Security?*
> Amongst others, the following will have the right to the Social Security medical assistance benefits:
> 
> Workers (affiliated or in a situation assimilated to being affiliated).
> ...


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> Here's a machine translation of the relevant section of the Spanish seguridad social website. Spain does now have 99.99% universal free healthcare - even those not registered as resident. The exceptions are stated near the end of the page.


I imagine this requirement for eligibility for healthcare(from your link) if not paying SS contributions would mean that a lot of foreign residents who arrive with visas would not qualify, because they would have had to demonstrate an income well in excess of that in order to get their visa.

Not receiving income of more than double the IPREM.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Megsmum said:


> Yes
> 
> When I was diagnosed with cancer last year, I had to stop work. Because I had autónomos insurance, €3 pm I was allowed to go baja.. until medically fit to return to work , no payments and retain healthcare.
> But. If I'd just "stopped". After three months my rights to healthcare stop. I've been here for nearly eight years


I've also been told that I'd continue to have health coverage for 3 months after stopping work (ie no longer contributing), and then it would stop. This is in Andalucia, and I've had permanent residence for years (35 years living in Spain). I'm a teacher and I don't work/contribute for nearly 3 months each summer. But I've never passed the 3 month mark so I don't know if what they've told me is really true.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

kaipa said:


> Interesting. So clearly the suggestion that 5 years gives you free healthcare is not true. So the rule is that Spanish citizens get free healthcare but residents only get if contributing or it is effectively paid via S1( UK nats)? Will folk arriving with NLV have to always be paying for healthcare ( convenio) or does the S1 arrangement continue?


AFAIK. NEW incomers are not entitled to S1 anymore. We are because we were here before 1st January this year. Only those living here prior to brexit continue or can apply in years to come


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Megsmum said:


> AFAIK. NEW incomers are not entitled to S1 anymore. We are because we were here before 1st January this year. Only those living here prior to brexit continue or can apply in years to come


New residents who qualify for an S1 are indeed entitled to them once they qualify. 

They can't use an S1 for a visa though. It will only be issued once they are already resident.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

xabiaxica said:


> New residents who qualify for an S1 are indeed entitled to them once they qualify.
> 
> They can't use an S1 for a visa though. It will only be issued once they are already resident.


So presumably they'll have to be self funding for one year as private insurance is only every for a year


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Megsmum said:


> So presumably they'll have to be self funding for one year as private insurance is only every for a year


Yes, a British citizen needs private health insurance for the first year in order to secure a visa.


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

kaipa said:


> I only ask as ( yet again) the UK government website says that once a permanent resident you have the same rights as to healthcare as Spanish residents.
> 
> "If you’ve been a resident in Spain for 5 years or more, you can apply for permanent residency. This will give you access to state healthcare on the same basis as a Spanish citizen."


I've found it best to regard advice from the UK Gov. as speculative unless 100% corroborated by official sources in Spain!


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

Nope, I have had permanent residency for over seven years now. No free lunch!


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

xabiaxica said:


> I have now heard on a couple of FB groups of people who claim to have secured healthcare on this basis.
> 
> The only way to find out for sure I guess is to apply!


Not even remotely true. I have tried every possible way to get on the Spanish system but those benefits are not available to people on resident status.


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

kaipa said:


> So if you have worked for more than 5 years ( contributed) and have permanent residency do you then qualify for free healthcare ?. By that, I mean if you stopped working. Does INSS stop your healthcare?


15 years, yes


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

xabiaxica said:


> Yes, a British citizen needs private health insurance for the first year in order to secure a visa.


Just like us Americans, one can then apply for the Convenio Especial and pay.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Elyles said:


> Just like us Americans, one can then apply for the Convenio Especial and pay.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Yes I remember your posts each time this comes up and I continually tell people that 5 years does not qualify you for free healthcare but at the moment there seems to be UK expats claiming they ( well usually friends) have managed to get it. I'm very sceptical as a lot of us here have worked and are not yet retired and everyone confirms that it doesn't happen- but now there appears to be a rabid group on other sites accusing people of spreading misinformation if you say the UK government site is wrong!!. The consequence is that some newbies under retirement age are factoring in 4 years convenio then hey presto ...free healthcare. Why does the UK government website still say it is possible- hasn't anyone questioned them?


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

kaipa said:


> Yes I remember your posts each time this comes up and I continually tell people that 5 years does not qualify you for free healthcare but at the moment there seems to be UK expats claiming they ( well usually friends) have managed to get it. I'm very sceptical as a lot of us here have worked and are not yet retired and everyone confirms that it doesn't happen- but now there appears to be a rabid group on other sites accusing people of spreading misinformation if you say the UK government site is wrong!!. The consequence is that some newbies under retirement age are factoring in 4 years convenio then hey presto ...free healthcare. Why does the UK government website still say it is possible- hasn't anyone questioned them?


To be fair, the information about the "fre access" is exclusively UK info, and obviously not directed at any other nationalitry. 
I do find it very strange that the UK Government maintains this position when other governments do not claim this to be the case for their citizens in Spain, but at the same time we have to acknowledge that the process described (IIRC) is to first get the relevant certificate from the NHS to present to the local health authority in Spain.
With respect to Elyles (who I believe completely when he says he has exhausted all possibilities) it is, I assume; not the case that he tried the "UK" route.
What we need in order to be sure that this is true or not is a UK citizen who has followed exactly the process described with the NHS certificate. We still have never been told of any attempt (successfully or otherwise) to do this by any poster first hand.


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## Relyat (Sep 29, 2013)

As previously mentioned, I tried twice, both times with the non-entitlement letter and failed on both occasions.
What we need is evidence, first hand, from someone who has succeeded.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I had forgotten the fact that you tried the published route and failed.

Indeed, what we are missing is a success story!


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Overandout said:


> I had forgotten the fact that you tried the published route and failed.
> 
> Indeed, what we are missing is a success story!


And yet on various Facebook groups there seem to be people saying they got it. Problem is that when you ask exactly what they did to get it it all seems rather vague with either people talking about the ubiquitous friend-they-know or simply telling you that it is there on the UK website or referring to /SNIP/ another forum. None of this seems very conclusive unfortunately.


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

When even some Spanish nationals don't get free health care I don't know what makes Brits think that they can?

The UK gov have been putting out dubious information ever since the referendum and I believe nothing they say unless specifically backed up by official Spanish sources.

I wouldn't trust Facebook for a definitine answer if I asked the time of day!


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## paulhe (Jan 2, 2018)

MataMata said:


> When even some Spanish nationals don't get free health care I don't know what makes Brits think that they can?
> 
> The UK gov have been putting out dubious information ever since the referendum and I believe nothing they say unless specifically backed up by official Spanish sources.
> 
> I wouldn't trust Facebook for a definitine answer if I asked the time of day!


Is there a difference between permanent resident and citizen? Clearly there is legally, but from the point of benefits of residency? For example, in Australia, there is no difference in terms of accessing 'free' healthcare between permanent residents or citizens. Some time ago I posted a question on another thread (or site, can't recall now) asking the question about Spanish citizens who lose their job or become retired, do they receive free healthcare? Surely they cannot afford to maintain convenio especial? Residents who cannot afford the convenio especial (it is 65 E a month I believe until 65 then it goes up considerably, just when one does not have so much to spare) Is the answer for longer term residents to obtain citizenship? Perhaps that is the only way.

Paul


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

As the convenio de asistencia de sanitaria publica is not simply for foreigners it would logically imply that Spanish Citizens must in some cases not have access to free-healthcare.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

kaipa said:


> As the convenio is not simply for foreigners it would logically imply that Spanish Citizens must in some cases not have access to free-healthcare.


Since October 2012 all citizens have the right to healthcare.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

xabiaxica said:


> Since October 2012 all citizens have the right to healthcare.


But the Convenio de asistencia de Sanidad Publica exists for everyone not just extranjeros so surely there must be a case where there are spanish citizens who dont qualify?


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## littleweed (Sep 20, 2013)

With the introduction of "Real Decreto-ley 7/2018, de 27 de julio, sobre el acceso universal al Sistema Nacional de Salud" all Spaniards (who are resident) now have access to free health care. With foreign residents I think it is a bit more complicated and there are exceptions including people who have, for example, the NLV. Here's the relevant section 2018 law as it pertains to foreign residents right to health care;

c) Ser persona extranjera y con residencia legal y habitual en el territorio español y no tener la obligación de acreditar la cobertura obligatoria de la prestación sanitaria por otra vía. 

The key phrase is the "no tener la obligación de acreditar la cobertura obligatoria" which as a previous poster pointed out covers the obligation of NLV visa holders to have health insurance. However after 5 years on the NLV you can apply for Permanent Residency where there is no such obligation. Or at least that's how I make sense of the statement on the British Embassy web site.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

littleweed said:


> With the introduction of "Real Decreto-ley 7/2018, de 27 de julio, sobre el acceso universal al Sistema Nacional de Salud" all Spaniards (who are resident) now have access to free health care. With foreign residents I think it is a bit more complicated and there are exceptions including people who have, for example, the NLV. Here's the relevant section 2018 law as it pertains to foreign residents right to health care;
> 
> c) Ser persona extranjera y con residencia legal y habitual en el territorio español y no tener la obligación de acreditar la cobertura obligatoria de la prestación sanitaria por otra vía.
> 
> The key phrase is the "no tener la obligación de acreditar la cobertura obligatoria" which as a previous poster pointed out covers the obligation of NLV visa holders to have health insurance. However after 5 years on the NLV you can apply for Permanent Residency where there is no such obligation. Or at least that's how I make sense of the statement on the British Embassy web site.


Why do you say that there is no obligation to have private healthcare after 5 years?
Certainly those who are on either a EU Citizen's Cert or a Brexit TIE, the obligation to maintain the private healthcare (or pay into the state one) exisst after the 5 years. The fact that you have a "permanent" card and hence you won't have to show proof doesn't mean its not obligatory. That said I have not read the laws about health care requirements of the NLV, but I would be surprised if they remove the requirement after 5 years.


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## littleweed (Sep 20, 2013)

The same Article 3 of the "Real Decreto-ley 7/2018" gives free healthcare to all Spaniards (who are resident);

2. Para hacer efectivo el derecho al que se refiere el apartado 1 con cargo a los fondos públicos de las administraciones competentes, las personas titulares de los citados derechos deberán encontrarse en alguno de los siguientes supuestos:

a) Tener nacionalidad española y residencia habitual en el territorio español.

And Artículo 32.1 de la Ley Orgánica 4/2000 establishes that permanent residents have the same rights as Spaniards;

1. La residencia de larga duración es la situación que autoriza a residir y trabajar en España indefinidamente, en las mismas condiciones que los españoles.

So the taken to together this is the basis for free health care for permanent residents.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

It is so frustrating. Other forums seem to have members who claim to have free healthcare due to 5 years residency but this one here doesn't . Surely there must be one member who can confirm having it and the process they used?


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

littleweed said:


> The same Article 3 of the "Real Decreto-ley 7/2018" gives free healthcare to all Spaniards (who are resident);
> 
> 2. Para hacer efectivo el derecho al que se refiere el apartado 1 con cargo a los fondos públicos de las administraciones competentes, las personas titulares de los citados derechos deberán encontrarse en alguno de los siguientes supuestos:
> 
> ...


La residencia de larga duración es la situación que autoriza a residir y trabajar en España indefinidamente, en las mismas condiciones que los españoles.

This on it's own seems to saying you have same rights with respect to residency and work not healthcare. Quoting selected parts of legislative documents is always ambiguous as usually there are preceding caveats which contextualize the quoted part.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

littleweed said:


> The same Article 3 of the "Real Decreto-ley 7/2018" gives free healthcare to all Spaniards (who are resident);
> 
> 2. Para hacer efectivo el derecho al que se refiere el apartado 1 con cargo a los fondos públicos de las administraciones competentes, las personas titulares de los citados derechos deberán encontrarse en alguno de los siguientes supuestos:
> 
> ...


I can see where you are coming from, and certainly I can see that this might be the basis for the claims by the UK Gov and the various other orgs which claim this free care method.

But, I feel its a huge jump from "living and working in Spain indefinitely in the same conditions as Spaniards" to your assumption of "and with all the same rights that a Spaniard has as a citizen".

As an example, the total equivalency of rights of a permanent resident to those of a Spanish national by this extrapolation would also give us the right to vote would it not? But I don't see anyone proposing that we have that right.

I personally do not think this argument would stand up in a court, but I'd love to see someone try it!

The right to free health care for immigrants actually came from a modification to the Ley Orgánica 4/2000 by means of Ley Orgánica 2/2009 which introduced the Article 14 alluding to the fact that all immigrants had the right to free health care. This was the controversial one that the right wing parties objected to.

On the face of it the article 14 is actually a "stronger" argument than Article 32, but it has already been debunked by the fact that even a Spaniard needs to be either an "asegurado" or a "beneficiario" of the Seguridad Social to benefit from the health care offered. And as a regular immigrant we cannot be asegurados or beneficiarios without either working or paying the Convenio, this argument seems to fall flat.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I dont think we can try and do this as though we are lawyers perusing the actual legal documents. We need an actual unequivocal case where someone was clearly awarded free healthcare on the basis of long residency


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

kaipa said:


> I dont think we can try and do this as though we are lawyers perusing the actual legal documents. We need an actual unequivocal case where someone was clearly awarded free healthcare on the basis of long residency


We can discuss it. This is a discussion forum...

Are you planning to try to secure healthcare in this way? 

If so, let us know how you get on.


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## Relyat (Sep 29, 2013)

If you are a member of one of these other forums that you mention, perhaps you could ask them directly. 
As I've said before, I've never seen anyone, anywhere claiming to have been successful following this route. Every time it's been at least second hand information.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

xabiaxica said:


> We can discuss it. This is a discussion forum...
> 
> Are you planning to try to secure healthcare in this way?
> 
> If so, let us know how you get on.


I mean I dont think looking at specific legal documents will help us much as it is more a case of what actually happens when you go to INSS to ask for it.
From what I hear it appears to a case of convincing them that you have no other resort to healthcare and that seems to mean getting a letter saying you dont have access to NHS nor have a C1. There might also be some differences depending on where you live. For example, a few years ago people were claiming the the convenio had been abandoned in Andalucia and everyone was move to universal healthcare. Some even claiming that they never had to healthcare provisions when claiming residency ( I'm sure that was apocryphal though) . Anyway we appear to have no members who have been successful so we will just wait and see


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

kaipa said:


> I mean I dont think looking at specific legal documents will help us much as it is more a case of what actually happens when you go to INSS to ask for it.
> From what I hear it appears to a case of convincing them that you have no other resort to healthcare and that seems to mean getting a letter saying you dont have access to NHS nor have a C1. There might also be some differences depending on where you live. For example, a few years ago people were claiming the the *convenio had been abandoned in Andalucia and everyone was move to universal healthcare.* Some even claiming that they never had to healthcare provisions when claiming residency ( I'm sure that was apocryphal though) . Anyway we appear to have no members who have been successful so we will just wait and see


The convenio was briefly abandoned in Andalucía & I personally know someone who durung that brief time moved to free state healthcare.... and is still on it.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

xabiaxica said:


> The convenio was briefly abandoned in Andalucía & I personally know someone who durung that brief time moved to free state healthcare.... and is still on it.


This is one problem as some of the people who say they have free healthcare are in Andalucia and are maybe confused about how they got it.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

kaipa said:


> This is one problem as some of the people who say they have free healthcare are in Andalucia and are maybe confused about how they got it.


My friend is definitely not confused about how they got it.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

I've had a conversation with friends here who are English. They spoke to a "friend" in the village about applying for healthcare. They've been on private health insurance for seven years. They applied for state cover both under 60, both received it. They're in UK at the moment but will talk me through the procedure when they return. I'll report back in January


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## Rainydays76 (Dec 16, 2021)

kaipa said:


> Yes this is why I asked as my Facebook is basically saying the same thing - that after 5 years it's free!! I suppose most folk here get it through their S1 so we probably dont have many who have been here for 5 years and are still not at retirement age. Anyone know anyone who can confirm it?
> [/QUOTE





kaipa said:


> I dare say we have covered this but after 5 years and you are automatically a permanent resident is healthcare free irrespective of work, pension etc?


I may have misunderstood your question, but I'll give you my take on it. I am a Spanish resident (I've lived here 8 years, got my residency after 5). I have never had a problem accessing free medical healthcare here, including earlier this year when I broke my ankle and had to have an operation. I think when you are a permanent resident you access health services as a Spanish would


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## Rainydays76 (Dec 16, 2021)

Rainydays76 said:


> I may have misunderstood your question, but I'll give you my take on it. I am a Spanish resident (I've lived here 8 years, got my residency after 5). I have never had a problem accessing free medical healthcare here, including earlier this year when I broke my ankle and had to have an operation. I think when you are a permanent resident you access health services as a Spanish would


Sorry, a mistype, as a Spanish citizen would


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## Rainydays76 (Dec 16, 2021)

Overandout said:


> I can see where you are coming from, and certainly I can see that this might be the basis for the claims by the UK Gov and the various other orgs which claim this free care method.
> 
> But, I feel its a huge jump from "living and working in Spain indefinitely in the same conditions as Spaniards" to your assumption of "and with all the same rights that a Spaniard has as a citizen".
> 
> ...


Isn't the point of a law is that it doesn't extrapolate? and this is a law related to health, not voting rights


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Rainydays76 said:


> I may have misunderstood your question, but I'll give you my take on it. I am a Spanish resident (I've lived here 8 years, got my residency after 5). I have never had a problem accessing free medical healthcare here, including earlier this year when I broke my ankle and had to have an operation. I think when you are a permanent resident you access health services as a Spanish would


But are you working here? If so, then you are paying into the system and therefore have a right to "free" health care (which isn't free at all - you and your employer pay a hefty chunk to the state every month to finance it).


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Rainydays76 said:


> Sorry, a mistype, as a Spanish citizen would
> 
> You need to tell us first if you are a UK national and then what process you went through in order to get the free-healthcare. You won't have had it automatically as there is no direct connection between the INSS and immigration. You must have gone and petitioned for it. Let us know though


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Rainydays76 said:


> Isn't the point of a law is that it doesn't extrapolate? and this is a law related to health, not voting rights


The title of the Law is "Regarding rights and freedoms of foreigners in Spain and their social integration".


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

xabiaxica said:


> My friend is definitely not confused about how they got it.


i have friends In the same situation.


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## littleweed (Sep 20, 2013)

Overandout said:


> I can see where you are coming from, and certainly I can see that this might be the basis for the claims by the UK Gov and the various other orgs which claim this free care method.
> 
> But, I feel its a huge jump from "living and working in Spain indefinitely in the same conditions as Spaniards" to your assumption of "and with all the same rights that a Spaniard has as a citizen".
> 
> ...


I agree with some of your reservations here but the 2018 law is what it says on the tin - Real Decreto-ley 7/2018, de 27 de julio, sobre el acceso universal al Sistema Nacional de Salud - it introduces universal free health care for all Spaniards (who are resident). The ideas of "asegurados or beneficiarios" just aren't relevant any longer.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Although RD 7/2018 is law, it only modifies previous laws about the Social Security (specifically Ley 16/3003 for the purposes of this discussion) and I just can't see where the concept of "asegurados" and "beneficiarios" becomes derogated under those modifications. 

In fact the preamble of the RD even states that the intention is to correct an infringement of the RD 16/2012 which "dejaba fuera de la atención sanitaria con cargo a fondos públicos a personas adultas no registradas ni autorizadas a residir en España".

It is clear to almost everyone that the people who stand to gain free medical care under this law were (and still are) "adults who are neither registered as or authorized to be residents in Spain".

This is the view of the EU too. Their website about healthcare in Spain states:

"Foreigners not registered or authorised as resident in Spain have the right to health protection and to health care under the same conditions as people with Spanish nationality."





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Spain - Employment, Social Affairs & Inclusion - European Commission






ec.europa.eu





As someone said earlier, a good lawyer can probably find snippets of the text which in isolation suggest that the law gives every resident free health care, but in the context of the law it is pretty clear to me that it isn't going to fly in court (if we ever get to see the argument tested).


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## littleweed (Sep 20, 2013)

Yes, I agree that one of the motivations of the 2018 legislation was to return access to health care to undocumented migrants. However, legislation can have more than one purpose and this also has the wider aim of guaranteeing access to free health care for all Spaniards resident in Spain. This is from the preamble;

"El presente real decreto-ley obedece fundamentalmente a la necesidad de garantizar la universalidad de la asistencia, es decir, a garantizar el derecho a la protección de la salud y a la atención sanitaria, en las mismas condiciones, a todas las personas que se encuentren en el Estado Español".

This is expressed in Articulo 3.1

"1. Son titulares del derecho a la protección de la salud y a la atención sanitaria todas las personas con nacionalidad española y las personas extranjeras que tengan establecida su residencia en el territorio español".

As a couple of posters have pointed out there is generally a catch. Although the legislation refers to all persons it is clear from Articulo 3.2 that some foreigners would still need to pay - including I believe those who are holders of a NLV until the point at which(after 5 years) they can become permanent residents.

I realize there is always a risk of misrepresentation through selective quotation but mercifully this isn't a long text and I can't see anything that undermines the key point that all Spaniards resident in Spain have access to free health care. With foreign residents there are some limited exceptions where there is an obligation to pay and these are stated in Article 3.2.c & d.

Full text of the legislation is here;

BOE.es - BOE-A-2018-10752 Real Decreto-ley 7/2018, de 27 de julio, sobre el acceso universal al Sistema Nacional de Salud.

By the way, there is a note at the end of the text to the effect that this legislation derogates any other legislation of the same or inferior rank;

*Disposición derogatoria única. Derogación normativa.*

Quedan derogadas cuantas disposiciones de igual o inferior rango se opongan, contradigan o resulten incompatibles con lo dispuesto en este real decreto-ley.

En particular, quedan derogados los artículos 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, y 8 del Real Decreto 1192/2012, de 3 de agosto, por el que se regula la condición de persona asegurada y de beneficiaria a efectos de la asistencia sanitaria en España, con cargo a fondos públicos, a través del Sistema Nacional de Salud.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

We went through all this nearly 3 years ago. The Universal healthcare act was a bit of a show boat piece of law immediately brought in by Sanchez after he managed a vote of no confidence in PP and Rajoy. It was designed to show the difference that socialism offered. Most Spaniards probably never even bothered to read about as is was designed for undocumented illegals. However a prominent UK website immediately interpreted it as meaning that all residents were equally entitled to it and told people to start waving the ( draft ) legislation at various funcionarios when it cam to healthcare. There were reports of the convenio being scrapped in varios communidades with Andalucía ( POSE stronghold) leading the way. The first problem was that the bill took a long time to become law ( if it even did- Im not sure about that) and by then it was apparent that INSS had no intention of implementing something that was designed for illegals for wealthy foreigners. After a while the website seemed to distance itself from its intial enthusiasm and that seems to be where we are now.


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## littleweed (Sep 20, 2013)

Post by accident - Mod, please delete


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

Overandout said:


> To be fair, the information about the "fre access" is exclusively UK info, and obviously not directed at any other nationalitry.
> I do find it very strange that the UK Government maintains this position when other governments do not claim this to be the case for their citizens in Spain, but at the same time we have to acknowledge that the process described (IIRC) is to first get the relevant certificate from the NHS to present to the local health authority in Spain.
> With respect to Elyles (who I believe completely when he says he has exhausted all possibilities) it is, I assume; not the case that he tried the "UK" route.
> What we need in order to be sure that this is true or not is a UK citizen who has followed exactly the process described with the NHS certificate. We still have never been told of any attempt (successfully or otherwise) to do this by any poster first hand.


I am not now nor ever have been a UK citizen, so don’t know what the process is for you guys


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

paulhe said:


> Is there a difference between permanent resident and citizen? Clearly there is legally, but from the point of benefits of residency? For example, in Australia, there is no difference in terms of accessing 'free' healthcare between permanent residents or citizens. Some time ago I posted a question on another thread (or site, can't recall now) asking the question about Spanish citizens who lose their job or become retired, do they receive free healthcare? Surely they cannot afford to maintain convenio especial? Residents who cannot afford the convenio especial (it is 65 E a month I believe until 65 then it goes up considerably, just when one does not have so much to spare) Is the answer for longer term residents to obtain citizenship? Perhaps that is the only way.
> 
> Paul


In Spain there is a huge difference between permanent resident (now called residente de larga duración) and itizenship


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

littleweed said:


> With the introduction of "Real Decreto-ley 7/2018, de 27 de julio, sobre el acceso universal al Sistema Nacional de Salud" all Spaniards (who are resident) now have access to free health care. With foreign residents I think it is a bit more complicated and there are exceptions including people who have, for example, the NLV. Here's the relevant section 2018 law as it pertains to foreign residents right to health care;
> 
> c) Ser persona extranjera y con residencia legal y habitual en el territorio español y no tener la obligación de acreditar la cobertura obligatoria de la prestación sanitaria por otra vía.
> 
> The key phrase is the "no tener la obligación de acreditar la cobertura obligatoria" which as a previous poster pointed out covers the obligation of NLV visa holders to have health insurance. However after 5 years on the NLV you can apply for Permanent Residency where there is no such obligation. Or at least that's how I make sense of the statement on the British Embassy web site.


This is all null and void now because it was never presented in the legislature


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## littleweed (Sep 20, 2013)

Hi


Elyles said:


> This is all null and void now because it was never presented in the legislature
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hi, 

From the following report it looks to have gone through all the stages, finally being approved by Congress;

elpais.com/politica/2018/09/06/actualidad/1536224502_681558.html


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

Not really. Check with your local SS office


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

littleweed said:


> Hi
> Hi,
> 
> From the following report it looks to have gone through all the stages, finally being approved by Congress;
> ...


I remember when this was printed and was excited but apparently it was never passed. If it had been I would have quit paying for the Convenio Especial four years ago


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## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

littleweed said:


> From the following report it looks to have gone through all the stages, finally being approved by Congress;
> 
> elpais.com/politica/2018/09/06/actualidad/1536224502_681558.html


A four year old newspaper report aint anything to dance about. And it clearly says in one part that the bill would only provide for non residents (illegal aliens etc) who are unable to gain medical cover by any other means.

I only know of one person who actually has this so called free healthcare and he is British and when he arrived 20 plus years ago was given access to healthcare without question, he is registered at the same health centre my FIL uses.
He is to my knowledge still non resident (even though he has not been back to the Uk since 2014) and he still has a paper Uk drivers licence (I've seen this).
He built his own house which may not be a legal dwelling and when he had a heart attack a couple of years ago the ambulance refused to go to his house because its on land without a roadway.

Anyway. I left the Uk on my own free will, so I don't expect the Uk to pick up the bill for my healthcare (until I'm 67 anyway), the terms of my residency was that I had to have private for a year and then I could pay into the convenio if I wanted too or keep my private (at no point during the conversations with our lawyer and the healthcare company was the possibility of free cover ever mentioned) Oh and I did ask.

Now were I to stop the private and not bother with the convenio I still wouldn't be covered by the law that wasn't passed anyway (and neither would a legal resident)
Because you and I would have previously demonstrated that healthcare IS available, which the bill again clearly states that you must not be able to gain, to avail yourself of the free cover..

Im uneducated and even I can see that it aint never going to happen...


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

We had very heated debates about all this when it first appeared. It was brought in by Sanchez within weeks of him winning the vote of no confidence. It was a legislative proposal designed to signal the nature of POSE. It was very much an indication of how the new government would govern compared with PP. However it was never intended to interpreted as applying to persons such as UK nationals. It was framed solely as a piece of law applicable for immigrants without papers. However, a certain website began picking away at aspects of the draft paper and suggested it was applicable for all immigrants. This created a whole lot of disinformation and rumours. Once it was coupled to Adulucia's health policies it began to look as if it was only a matter of time before everyone has free healthcare. 3 years later and you can see how wrong people were.


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## littleweed (Sep 20, 2013)

Elyles said:


> Not really. Check with your local SS office
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


As far as I am aware the Social Security security office only administers access to health care for people affiliated to the Social Security. If I were applying under the 2018 legislation as a permanent resident I would approach a social worker at the local health centre. I made this mistake a while back - I was refused by the Social Security but got access through another path after a visit to my local clinic. I am not trying to be pedantic here - if people are asking the Social Security about this then they may be disappointed since the functionaries may limit their answer to the part of the system they administer.


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## littleweed (Sep 20, 2013)

Elyles said:


> I remember when this was printed and was excited but apparently it was never passed. If it had been I would have quit paying for the Convenio Especial four years ago
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But here it is in BOE!





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BOE.es - BOE-A-2018-10752 Real Decreto-ley 7/2018, de 27 de julio, sobre el acceso universal al Sistema Nacional de Salud.







www.boe.es





Why do you think it never passed?

At the time 2018 Legislation was intended to be a holding measure while the Government worked on a Ley Proyecto which would allow all parties to have their say. This latter was put on the back burner due the pandemic, but as I pointed out in a previous post the 2018 Legislation has been approved by the Council of Ministers and the Congress which is all that is required for a Real Decreto to become law.


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## Relyat (Sep 29, 2013)

littleweed said:


> As far as I am aware the Social Security security office only administers access to health care for people affiliated to the Social Security. If I were applying under the 2018 legislation as a permanent resident I would approach a social worker at the local health centre. I made this mistake a while back - I was refused by the Social Security but got access through another path after a visit to my local clinic. I am not trying to be pedantic here - if people are asking the Social Security about this then they may be disappointed since the functionaries may limit their answer to the part of the system they administer.


See post #9


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## littleweed (Sep 20, 2013)

Relyat said:


> See post #9


Do you mind me asking if this was before or after the 2018 law came into force?


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## Relyat (Sep 29, 2013)

Initially in 2015 with the support of the town social worker and 2018 a direct approach to INSS.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Relyat said:


> Initially in 2015 with the support of the town social worker and 2018 a direct approach to INSS.


So do you have free healthcare now as a result of being a permanent resident? Or is your healthcare free as a result of an S1 form?


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## Relyat (Sep 29, 2013)

Requests were rejected on both occasions. I then joined the Convenio Especial but now access via S1.


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

littleweed said:


> But here it is in BOE!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It never passed due to a loophole


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Elyles said:


> It never passed due to a loophole
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes Elyles is right. After all the boohaha it never passed!!!. Yet people still keep going on about it!!. This is what happens when groups rely on bits of information that they cant really verify due to language problems and misunderstanding of the law making process in Spain. The digital nomad visa is another example where already it is being misinterpreted despite the fact it hasnt been ratified yet!


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Actually the content of the BOE was passed, but the law says that the universal health care for foreigners applies to all foreigners except those who, by other requirements, must have their own healthcare cover. 
Anyone coming to Spain to live as an EU citizen or with a visa as a third country citizen doesn't get free access because the immigration laws applicable demand that they maintain their own health cover as a condition of the residency.
The new law does not change that and expressly says as much:
2. La citada asistencia será con cargo a los fondos públicos de las administraciones competentes siempre que dichas personas cumplan todos los siguientes requisitos:
a) No tener la obligación de acreditar la cobertura obligatoria de la prestación sanitaria por otra vía, en virtud de lo dispuesto en el derecho de la Unión Europea, los convenios bilaterales y demás normativa aplicable.


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

Overandout said:


> Actually the content of the BOE was passed, but the law says that the universal health care for foreigners applies to all foreigners except those who, by other requirements, must have their own healthcare cover.
> Anyone coming to Spain to live as an EU citizen or with a visa as a third country citizen doesn't get free access because the immigration laws applicable demand that they maintain their own health cover as a condition of the residency.
> The new law does not change that and expressly says as much:
> 2. La citada asistencia será con cargo a los fondos públicos de las administraciones competentes siempre que dichas personas cumplan todos los siguientes requisitos:
> a) No tener la obligación de acreditar la cobertura obligatoria de la prestación sanitaria por otra vía, en virtud de lo dispuesto en el derecho de la Unión Europea, los convenios bilaterales y demás normativa aplicable.


True, it was never designed for expats in the first place yet everyone was trying to operationally define it to meet their personal needs. 


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