# Canadian lawyer qualifying in Australia



## rekha.mcnutt (Aug 8, 2011)

Hi all,

my husband and I are seriously considering moving to Australia from Canada. I'm a laywer practicing primarily in Canadian Immigration (oh the irony) and want to do the same in Australia. I've read that I can register as a foreign practicing lawyer while working for an Aus firm which would allow me to continue to do Canadian immigration work. However, I obviously would also like to practice Aus Imm law. 

Any other Canadian lawyers here who have qualified there (in any practice area)? 

My biggest Q is, assuming you find an employer willing to do the leg work, what do you get hired as? Obviously not as a lawyer without first having been called locally. Would it be a position similar to an articling student or a paralegal? Perhaps it's simpler to arrive on a work permit and complete qualification requirements during that time?

Any help/guidance/experiences would be much appreciated!


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## jm21 (May 4, 2011)

I am a US attorney and have looked into this a bit...going from the USA to NSW in Australia. Seems like you at least used to be able to get qualifications similar to an AUS law degree fairly easily if moving to NSW form the US. Basically you send in your law school transcript to a board and they tell you what classes you need to take, then if you have practical experience you can get part or all of the practical experience requirements waived. It looked like if you had a US law degree with 5 years or more of experience you would just need to take 2-3 classes (AUS con law and property from what I remember) and then you'd be able to practice. 

Again, I've only started looking into it and not sure how the process compares from Canada, but that might help you google some more info. I thought it would be next to impossible but after looking into it seemed pretty feasible.


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## Weebie (Sep 16, 2009)

Australia has 40 Law Schools and only hald the population of Canada. Only the top Grads from Sydney, Melbourne, UNSW, Monash, Adelaide, Queensland and UWA are able to work as Solicitors in Australia. The other 90% go into Banking and usually earn a lot more. Lawyers like America are not well paid and as with North America you would be expected to work 12-16hr days.

To work in Immigration Law in Australia you need to complete a Grad Certificate in Immigration and become registered with MARA. If you want to immigration law specifically within the courts you need to be as elite as you could be in Canada. Murdoch in Perth, Victoria University, Griffith and Australia National University offer the course. The ANU one is completely done online.

In the past people have come out and practised on foreign law degrees from other common law countries but in the last decade this has no longer been possible. IF your serious about a Legal Career in Australia you need to redo your LLB or JD here. some Uni's have bridging programs but they don't seem to generate as much success. The legal market here is massively oversatturated and unless you have some unqiue skill the chances of securing direct employment are next to nil. There are many resources on the net about foreign Lawyers trying to make it in Australia.

Australian Lawyers regard North American legal education as second rate so this is what makes you up against


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## ae6 (Jan 30, 2009)

I dont work in immigration but I can tell you what my experience has been.

I've requalified in NSW and it was pretty much as jm21 has said. I applied to the board, LPAB for an assessment of my academic qualifications. (Legal Profession Admission Board - Legal Profession Admission Bd : Lawlink NSW)

I then completed the subjects required by the board - Constitutional Law, Administrative Law and Property Law to meet the academic requirements in NSW. This took about 6 months to complete.

I then applied to have my practical experience assessed by LPAB and was then required to meet the practical requirements. I had 5 years of practical experience and had to complete 2 practical subjects-Ethics and accounts. This took about a month to complete but around another month to get my results.

I did all of the exams and coursework online before coming to Australia and sat the exams at a local university of my choice in Ireland. I did the academic work online with UNE (The University of New England, Armidale, New South Wales, Australia) and the practical with the College of Law (Home - College of Law)

I submitted the results to LPAB and I was then admitted in NSW. I had to wait for the next admission ceremony and you must be in Australia for the ceremony. 

No one wanted to offer me a position until I was admitted but within a week of being admitted to practice I had 3 job offers. My advice is to do all of the required coursework before you arrive unless you don't mind not working for about a year. I've practised here for 18 months now.

I'm considering moving to Canada in a couple of years and practising there. I've looked into it and the systems aren't that different as far as I can see so I cant imagine that your experience will be very different from mine. The websites above particularly LPAB deal with the requirements for lawyers from different countries in a lot of detail so you should find what you require there.

Best of luck with it.


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## rekha.mcnutt (Aug 8, 2011)

Hi All,

thanks for the replies. They are all helpful. I did look into qualifying a while back and I would only need a few courses. I don't plan on moving unless I had a job lined up first. It's just too risky with a family. I will see how I can complete the courses I need from here and then start applying for jobs. In terms of marketability, I figured a firm in Aus that practiced in Migration law would be interested in expanding their service base to Australians wanting to move to Canada! Will have to just go for it and see what happens.


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## jm21 (May 4, 2011)

AE6, 

How do you find law practice in AUS? Where I live in the US there is very little support for a starting attorney, very few entry level openings at firms, and a pretty cut-throat environment (though not as bad as the big cities). I already started my own firm and had to go through a very steep learning curve...absolutely no desire to do that again....is law practice in AUS at least somewhat laid back and supportive? The wages over there don't really seem good enough to put up with a cut-throat environment. 

I know you haven't practiced where I'm at, but am curious for example what might happen if you are going in for a hearing and submit a pleading with a technical error in it. Would the judge throw the gavel at you and tell you you should be cleaning toilets, or offer a chance to correct the mistake if possible? Would the opposing counsel call you in advance and let you know there was a mistake, or wait until the last second to bring it up to try to get an edge? That sort of thing....


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## Weebie (Sep 16, 2009)

jm21 said:


> AE6,
> 
> How do you find law practice in AUS? Where I live in the US there is very little support for a starting attorney, very few entry level openings at firms, and a pretty cut-throat environment (though not as bad as the big cities). I already started my own firm and had to go through a very steep learning curve...absolutely no desire to do that again....is law practice in AUS at least somewhat laid back and supportive? The wages over there don't really seem good enough to put up with a cut-throat environment.
> 
> I know you haven't practiced where I'm at, but am curious for example what might happen if you are going in for a hearing and submit a pleading with a technical error in it. Would the judge throw the gavel at you and tell you you should be cleaning toilets, or offer a chance to correct the mistake if possible? Would the opposing counsel call you in advance and let you know there was a mistake, or wait until the last second to bring it up to try to get an edge? That sort of thing....


The US is def way more cut throat and the salaries in Australia are probably still much higher than the USD. I know you hear about Law grads earning 160k first year out of Law School but how many hours do they work to get that? Personally I don't believe that they earn that much for a second.

No, Judges woudn't throw the gavel at you like that because that's completely wrong way to act in a courtroom. Australia Law is a bit more robust and regulated than the US. Courtrooms are also less dramatic.

The issue your going to have is getting a work permit. Australia has plenty of young solicitors and there is no real reason to grant you a visa. You could get sponsored on a 457 Visa but as for a 176 there is no listing of Lawyers. The market is already heavily saturated and unless they have special unique skills there would be no reason to grant visa approval. This is what immigration will look at when they see a foreign legal application.


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## ae6 (Jan 30, 2009)

Hi jm21,

I found that firms were interested because I had legal experience overseas and they were very open to training me in those areas that I lacked experience. You are right though, salaries are not great here. Its not cut throat though which is good.

There is a huge amount of case management by the court, so a lot of appearances before a registrar (court officer - not sure if you have Registrars in the US) before the matter gets to a hearing and therefore any errors are corrected along the way. The courts are very open to amendments too. Its all in the spirit of ensuring that legal costs are not escalated for the client unnecessarily and that only cases with a reasonable prospect of success come before the courts. 

I've never experienced anyone not bringing a technical error to my attention for tactical reasons and I don't think the courts would look very favourably on them if they did. The courts are interested in streamlining the legal process to make it as easy and approachable for litigants as possible and don't tolerate any dramatics. Which is great. Errors which would have been fatal to a case in Ireland or the UK are easily correctable here which is great. 

Do you know if Canadian law as cut throat as the US?


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## Weebie (Sep 16, 2009)

I'm finishing off my LLB (well two years) so I don't have the experience, but my understanding is that Canada is no way near as Cut throat as the US. But similar to Australia there are accreditations which essentially mean a couple units such as constitution and few Canadian law units which need to be completed. The process is quite streamlined to common law countries like Britain, Australia and Ireland.

Best of luck!


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## rekha.mcnutt (Aug 8, 2011)

Weebie said:


> I'm finishing off my LLB (well two years) so I don't have the experience, but my understanding is that Canada is no way near as Cut throat as the US. But similar to Australia there are accreditations which essentially mean a couple units such as constitution and few Canadian law units which need to be completed. The process is quite streamlined to common law countries like Britain, Australia and Ireland.
> 
> Best of luck!


No, Canada definitely is not like the US in terms of a litigation practice. For many years my parents (who are now Americans) thought my job was exactly like Law and Order lol

Practice here is very civil. Of course, you still get the few bad apples along the way, but that's unavoidable. 

Loving the discussion on here! Thanks everyone for the input!


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## jm21 (May 4, 2011)

ae6 said:


> Hi jm21,
> 
> I found that firms were interested because I had legal experience overseas and they were very open to training me in those areas that I lacked experience. You are right though, salaries are not great here. Its not cut throat though which is good.
> 
> ...


At least in my state (WA) I don't think there's something like a registrar. 

Sounds a bit better to practice in AUS if what you say is true. The system here definitely does not favor saving people money which has always been frustrating to me. I deal with mostly low income clients and it seems absurd to charge them $XXX dollars an hour for 2 hours waiting for a judge to become available or something along those lines. 

I might think about volunteering a bit at a law office or something before going through the classes and all the expense though...a little burned out. 

The wage gap seems much smaller in Australia than in the US. I'm willing to deal with the ****e I have to deal with, at least for a while, because I get paid significantly more than the median wage here. In Australia the wages are much closer and unless attorney's jobs are a lot less of a pain there it just doesn't seem that worthwhile. 

People talk about the market being over-saturated here too, but I don't really see it. Most of the attorneys where I practice are baby boomers and will be retiring or dying soon. In the next 10 years there may be a shortage if anything. 

I would be going over with my wife who is an AUS permanent resident, so not looking at work visas. We've run into a few snags in the process but have some idea of how to continue...any advice is of course appreciated on the thread I started here... http://www.expatforum.com/expats/au...ge-ranking-me-us-citizen-both-living-usa.html


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## Weebie (Sep 16, 2009)

jm21 said:


> At least in my state (WA) I don't think there's something like a registrar.
> 
> Sounds a bit better to practice in AUS if what you say is true. The system here definitely does not favor saving people money which has always been frustrating to me. I deal with mostly low income clients and it seems absurd to charge them $XXX dollars an hour for 2 hours waiting for a judge to become available or something along those lines.
> 
> ...


what kind of money are attorneys on in the states. The salaries in Perth are very high. It's not uncommon for people to earn 70-80USD working at McDonalds here?


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## jm21 (May 4, 2011)

Weebie said:


> what kind of money are attorneys on in the states. The salaries in Perth are very high. It's not uncommon for people to earn 70-80USD working at McDonalds here?


I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at...I certainly make more than the wages at mcdonalds here....

From looking at Seek, it seemed like an entry level (or close to) attorney position in small town Australia made about 20-50% more than minimum wage. In small town America you would probably make 3-5 times minimum wage for a similar job. Not that attorneys are paid terribly more here, just that lower paying jobs in the US make quite a bit less. 

Given the lower cost of living here you would probably _feel _like you earned quite a bit more as an attorney here. And in a state like, say, Texas, you would feel that even more. Financially I am quite comfortable and will be taking a huge lifestyle hit moving to AUS. Particularly when it comes to housing and vehicles. The mortgage on my nice 2bd/2ba house near Seattle with a great view of the water is about $750/month...that would almost get me a run-down studio apartment in Australia from what I've seen.


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## ninja1 (Dec 26, 2011)

ae6 said:


> I dont work in immigration but I can tell you what my experience has been.
> 
> I've requalified in NSW and it was pretty much as jm21 has said. I applied to the board, LPAB for an assessment of my academic qualifications.
> 
> ...


Hi there, also a Canadian thinking about moving down to Australia. What was your experience doing the additional units you needed online ? Could you study at your own pace or did you have to follow a schedule prescribed by UNE?

Also, the OP asked (generally) if there was one state that may be easier to receive the certification. For example, is the process for overseas practitioners more burdensome in some state/territories than others? I did look at the Uniform Principles for admissions of overseas practitioners. It seems to be a guiding document and I wonder if the admitting authorities vary in their approach to assessing qualifications?

Finally, average salaries.. Do you find the salary you make as a lawyer capable of supporting a good life there? I saw some salary information online and it doesn't seem like wages are really that impressive given the higher cost of living. Is there a large annual bonus system at firms that helps top-up salaries like there is in North America?

Cheers and happy holidays everyone!


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