# Teaching English in Spain



## mooneycat

Hi ExPats Experts! We are thinking of selling up and relocating and running a small English School in Spain...probably from our home initially. ( This is our present employment in the UK and we are qualified TEFL teachers)

Any advice welcomed. The potential areas we had thought of were Murcia, Alicante , Malaga and Valencia...can anyone suggest the best potential base for this idea and help direct us to a location to look at property to buy.....guess our maximum budget would be upwards to £95 000...Is it correct that property in Malaga is much more expensive?

Would need to be not too rural and also near to established English Schools to seek work there and make contacts

We have not visited any of these cities!! But we have been to other parts of Spain so would really welcome some down to earth advice from anyone who knows about these bases.
Thankyou very much!


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## 213979

Aren't these areas most likely to be overrun with already established English schools? 

If your priority is making money, I wouldn't go to where all the _guiris_ are. If your priority is being half-retired and enjoying life on a Costa, that's another thing.


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## jojo

Welcome to the forum. I'm no expert, but I think you need to do a lot of research before you take this idea another step further. Go and visit all of the areas and see what language schools are around and how they're fairing in the current economic crisis.

But there will be rules, regulations, insurances and permits required. I dont know if your maximum budget would be enough.

My co mod, xabiachica teaches Spanish in Xabia/Javea and will tell you more I'm sure!!

Jo xxx


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## mooneycat

elenetxu said:


> Aren't these areas most likely to be overrun with already established English schools?
> 
> If your priority is making money, I wouldn't go to where all the _guiris_ are. If your priority is being half-retired and enjoying life on a Costa, that's another thing.


Hi Thanks for replying to my very first post! I guess...money wise .. enough to live and eat and pay the bills...and being near schools could get some work too....was my thinking...


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## jojo

mooneycat said:


> Hi Thanks for replying to my very first post! I guess...money wise .. enough to live and eat and pay the bills...and being near schools could get some work too....was my thinking...


 hhhmmm.... there is mass unemployment in Spain, which will affect both your chances of finding work and your chances of having a full school, should you go ahead. 

Jo xxx


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## mooneycat

jojo said:


> Welcome to the forum. I'm no expert, but I think you need to do a lot of research before you take this idea another step further. Go and visit all of the areas and see what language schools are around and how they're fairing in the current economic crisis.
> 
> But there will be rules, regulations, insurances and permits required. I dont know if your maximum budget would be enough.
> 
> My co mod, xabiachica teaches Spanish in Xabia/Javea and will tell you more I'm sure!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Hi Jo thanks very much...yes I know we need to visit...but its expensive...not sure where to start! Have been researching the schools....guess I had thought of more of a Home Tuition Service which is really what I do here rather than a big school employing people etc! I run a class in the kitchen here. 
I really appreciate any help and advice so much... thankyou


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## mooneycat

Thanks JoJO for your thoughts and advice...much appreciated


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## jojo

mooneycat said:


> Thanks JoJO for your thoughts and advice...much appreciated



I'm no expert. But its not as easy as you think. You would need to register as autonomo so that you could be able to use the healthcare system and become residents. That costs around 250€ a month before you start and isnt income related. After that, I'm hazy. But since nothing is very easy in spain, I'm sure that setting up a school wont be lol!!!!!!

Like I say, my co mod, is the expert. She's been in Spain for many years and teaches Spanish. I believe she started off working in a school, but now runs a remote business???!!! 

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky

mooneycat said:


> Hi ExPats Experts! We are thinking of selling up and relocating and running a small English School in Spain...probably from our home initially. ( This is our present employment in the UK and we are qualified TEFL teachers)
> 
> Any advice welcomed. The potential areas we had thought of were Murcia, Alicante , Malaga and Valencia...can anyone suggest the best potential base for this idea and help direct us to a location to look at property to buy.....guess our maximum budget would be upwards to £95 000...Is it correct that property in Malaga is much more expensive?
> 
> Would need to be not too rural and also near to established English Schools to seek work there and make contacts
> 
> We have not visited any of these cities!! But we have been to other parts of Spain so would really welcome some down to earth advice from anyone who knows about these bases.
> Thankyou very much!


I'm an English teacher, as is elenetxu who has already answered, but neither of us is in the same area as you and Spain is a big country with many regional differences which affect prices, licences, customer preferences, customer profile etc etc.
Also I think we work in different fields of TEFL teaching. I work almost exclusively as a freelance teacher teaching in company in and around Madrid. Due to the recession and with companies cutting back I have found that I had to lower prices a bit, be more flexible with timetable changes and be prepared to travel in a wider area. 
In this area one huge growth area is teaching children, teaching children at home after school and maybe their parents as well. Also there are a lot of young people, 20 - 30 year olds, graduates to school drop outs who are out of work and think that they may find more job opportunities if they have a better level of English. However, my word of warning would be that the rate charged for these classes is usually cheap or dirt cheap and many, if not all parents will expect to pay off the books if it's a private class at home thing. If it's through an academy they should expect to get a receipt and expect earnings to be declared. 
IN Madrid there are many organisations that have sprung up in the last few years who organise these classes, but I can't imagine that their teachers make a living out of this. I imagine but I don't know, that many are students or recent graduates with nothing else to do. Here is a link to one of these places
Clases particulares y profesores particulares – Acadomia
I think you might be better off going to a medium sized place where there isn't a school.
Truebrit set up a school a couple of years ago in a town near Madrid. If you log up 5 posts you would be able to PM him to ask him about his experiences.He doesn't come on very often. I don't know if he got all the licences and paperwork done before he opened. Many people end up opening businesses without everything in place because it's very long winded.
It seems a bit risky to sell up and come over expecting to set up a business, especially in these times. As I say, there are always customers, but well paying ?? And the areas that you are thinking about have between 25 and 30% unemployment so there's not a lot of extra cash around. And the other thing you have to think about is how you will fulfill the legal requirements to be living in Spain - 600€ per person approx, paying self employment around 250€ a month, whilst you are setting youselves up. 
A lot to think about and a lot of exploring to do!


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## xabiaxica

mooneycat said:


> Hi Jo thanks very much...yes I know we need to visit...but its expensive...not sure where to start! Have been researching the schools....guess I had thought of more of a Home Tuition Service which is really what I do here rather than a big school employing people etc! I run a class in the kitchen here.
> I really appreciate any help and advice so much... thankyou


hmmmm

if you want to work from home 'legally', then you have to have insurances & licenses to run as an academy - even if you're only using a spare room -you have to have a seprate loo & all sorts of things!

you can travel around & give classes in your students' homes - that obviously saves on the insurances & licenses

I actually do all my classes in a quiet area at the back of my friends' restaurant - it's an arrangement we've had for about 6 years now & works well for all of us - the students love the relaxed atmosphere too

I DO make enough to support myself & my teenagers - but as I said, I've been doing it a long time now & have built a reputation - & I work LONG hours.... & teach a lot of group classes


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## 213979

xabiachica said:


> hmmmm
> 
> if you want to work from home 'legally', then you have to have insurances & licenses to run as an academy - even if you're only using a spare room -you have to have a seprate loo & all sorts of things!
> 
> you can travel around & give classes in your students' homes - that obviously saves on the insurances & licenses
> 
> I actually do all my classes in a quiet area at the back of my friends' restaurant - it's an arrangement we've had for about 6 years now & works well for all of us - the students love the relaxed atmosphere too
> 
> I DO make enough to support myself & my teenagers - but as I said, I've been doing it a long time now & have built a reputation - & I work LONG hours.... & teach a lot of group classes



Don't you teach both languages? That's another huge plus. Your market is much larger! 




I work in companies as well as in an academy. I make enough to support my two-person family, but: 
1. Tomorrow I will leave home at 7 am and get back at 10 pm. 
2. I teach students from 6 years old to retirement age. 
3. I have to be very flexible. Students tend to want classes at: 
a. First thing in the morning
b. Lunch time
c. After work
4. I am not in charge of finding clients or running the academy. It can be a real pain in the neck to get the permissions needed to open a business in Spain. Get a good _gestor_ or lawyer on your side!


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## xabiaxica

elenetxu said:


> Don't you teach both languages? That's another huge plus. Your market is much larger!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I work in companies as well as in an academy. I make enough to support my two-person family, but:
> 1. Tomorrow I will leave home at 7 am and get back at 10 pm.
> 2. I teach students from 6 years old to retirement age.
> 3. I have to be very flexible. Students tend to want classes at:
> a. First thing in the morning
> b. Lunch time
> c. After work
> 4. I am not in charge of finding clients or running the academy. It can be a real pain in the neck to get the permissions needed to open a business in Spain. Get a good _gestor_ or lawyer on your side!


yes I do teach tefl as well, though not as much as I do Spanish - there are lots of 'tefl teachers' in the town, but not so many of us teaching Spanish (one academy & I think 2 other self-employed who as far as I know are working 'black' ) 

I also teach maths to teenagers - & I'm the _only _one in my town able to teach that _in_ English but _from_ Castellano & Valenciano text books - so that market is cornered

on top of that I'm IVA registered for translation work - I don't get a huge amount of that (I would if I did medical) partly because there are a lot who do it cheap & 'black' - but the jobs I do get tend to be substantial & for companies wanting IVA invoices

my first class most days starts at 9:30 am & several days a week my last one finishes at 7:30 pm. I could easily get another group or two going later than that, starting at 8pm & will be doing so in the next few weeks

my teenagers are beginning to complain that they never see me though, so I'm going to have to start popping home for the odd half hour between classes....well at least I'll lose weight - it's a short walk up the road, but a pita when you have stuff to be getting on with


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## 213979

xabiachica said:


> my teenagers are beginning to complain that they never see me though, so I'm going to have to start popping home for the odd half hour between classes....well at least I'll lose weight - it's a short walk up the road, but a pita when you have stuff to be getting on with


Yeah. Once I have kids it's going to have to be another story.


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## xabiaxica

elenetxu said:


> Yeah. Once I have kids it's going to have to be another story.




tell me about it..... I'm just glad they're old enough to be pretty self-sufficient so that I _can _work these dreadful hours - lord knows what would have happened if their dad had died when they were younger & needed more looking after


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## davexf

mooneycat said:


> Help direct us to a location to look at property to buy.....guess our maximum budget would be upwards to £95 000...Is it correct that property in Malaga is much more expensive?
> 
> Thankyou very much!


No-one has said about property prices; I would think that £95,000 is not much when it comes to buying a house. Especially remembering all the taxes etc., you pay.

Yes in my area there are apartments to buy from 30,000€ but for a reasonable house - I would think that you´d be struggling - and this is a cheaper area then say Malaga. 

Davexf


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## baldilocks

SWMBO works for an Academy and teaches English and French plus private lessons. She also does interpreting for both Medical and Legal, plus some translating (wills, minutes and other documents).

For private lessons, the fees can be as little as €4 or €5 - this is only a village but the parents of the kids and adult students realise that having English and/or French in their educational skills helps them to have a better chance of getting some form of paid employment.

I haven't posted in the poll because we are inland and nowhere near any of the places indicated.


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## mooneycat

So good to hear all these sensible things...thankyou...much appreciated and really helps me assess the idea better...here I travel to mainly children's homes and sometimes work with the family all together as well as some coming here....yes I have worked very hard building up my reputation indeed..and this would need to happen again in Spain...I could not just sit around on the Costas and be happy! I need to offer something useful and practical to people. Thanks to you all...I have certainly much to consider!! I will probably pester you again and its great to have you all to talk to about this! thanks joanna


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## mooneycat

So good to hear all these sensible things...thankyou...much appreciated and really helps me assess the idea better...here I travel to mainly children's homes and sometimes work with the family all together as well as some coming here....yes I have worked very hard building up my reputation indeed..and this would need to happen again in Spain...I could not just sit around on the Costas and be happy! I need to offer something useful and practical to people. Thanks to you all...I have certainly much to consider!! I will probably pester you again and its great to have you all to talk to about this! thanks joanna


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## mooneycat

davexf said:


> No-one has said about property prices; I would think that £95,000 is not much when it comes to buying a house. Especially remembering all the taxes etc., you pay.
> 
> Yes in my area there are apartments to buy from 30,000€ but for a reasonable house - I would think that you´d be struggling - and this is a cheaper area then say Malaga.
> 
> Davexf


Hi...Thanks very much for sharing your thoughts and knowledge....much appreciated
joanna


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## mooneycat

xabiachica said:


> yes I do teach tefl as well, though not as much as I do Spanish - there are lots of 'tefl teachers' in the town, but not so many of us teaching Spanish (one academy & I think 2 other self-employed who as far as I know are working 'black' )
> 
> I also teach maths to teenagers - & I'm the _only _one in my town able to teach that _in_ English but _from_ Castellano & Valenciano text books - so that market is cornered
> 
> on top of that I'm IVA registered for translation work - I don't get a huge amount of that (I would if I did medical) partly because there are a lot who do it cheap & 'black' - but the jobs I do get tend to be substantial & for companies wanting IVA invoices
> 
> my first class most days starts at 9:30 am & several days a week my last one finishes at 7:30 pm. I could easily get another group or two going later than that, starting at 8pm & will be doing so in the next few weeks
> 
> my teenagers are beginning to complain that they never see me though, so I'm going to have to start popping home for the odd half hour between classes....well at least I'll lose weight - it's a short walk up the road, but a pita when you have stuff to be getting on with


Hello!
Thanks so much for sharing all that ...I really appreciate it...and its great to have people to ask these questions too and get informed answers. At present I do travel to the homes of children and teenagers....I have spent 7 long hard years building this up. I realise the same would need to happen again in Spain which is a bit daunting but realistic. Perhaps would it be more sensible to apply for a job in a language school....somewhere! and build from that...have lots to think about...and many thanks...hope I may contact you again as its very helpful! x


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## snikpoh

baldilocks said:


> SWMBO works for an Academy and teaches English and French plus private lessons. She also does interpreting for both Medical and Legal, plus some translating (wills, minutes and other documents).
> 
> For private lessons, the fees can be as little as €4 or €5 - this is only a village but the parents of the kids and adult students realise that having English and/or French in their educational skills helps them to have a better chance of getting some form of paid employment.
> 
> I haven't posted in the poll because we are inland and nowhere near any of the places indicated.



But the poll isn't about where you live ...? It's about where we think the best place to open an academy might be - I also live nowhere near the locations but, as always p), have a view so I voted.


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## Pesky Wesky

The timetable issue that elenetxu brought up is fundamental. Unless you work in a children's school you will most likely not have a "normal" timetable. The most blocked timetable would probably be every evening from 16:00/ 17:00 - 21:00/ 22:00, maybe Fridays, maybe not, and maybe Sat mornings for kids primarily. Butwhen you've got kids yourself that's not a good timetable to have. More typically you'll be doing early mornings (my first class is at 7:30 before my client starts work), lunch times and after school/ work...
And the other thing you'll have to think about is the legality. Plenty of people teach English and don't declare their earnings and I can understand why, but in the long term, my own feelings are that you're not doing yourself, nor other professionals, nor the country any good.
The other day I was in a café, a trendy, wifi, homebaked goods and alternative books kind place and there was a young woman giving someone a class and she was driving up the wall. I had finished work and her slow patient voice and her corrections filled the small café and were grating on me whilst I was waiting for my friends to turn up. I just wanted to ask "How much are you charging, and are you declaring your earnings !!??" But I didn't. It could well have been me 20 years ago... but having to pay 256€ self employment quota every month and 21% tax are making me mean !


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## Pesky Wesky

snikpoh said:


> But the poll isn't about where you live ...? It's about where we think the best place to open an academy might be - I also live nowhere near the locations but, as always p), have a view so I voted.


As I live in the Comunidad de Madrid and have no idea about what it's like to live and work in these places I haven't voted.


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## kalohi

I'm also a TEFL teacher here in Spain and I have been for the last 28 years. I have always worked on contract at a language academy and I have no interest whatsoever in starting my own school or being self employed. There's a lot to be said for being able to walk out the door of the school every evening and forgetting about it until the next afternoon because it's not on my shoulders to keep the place running. It's also a plus that I have a guaranteed steady income each month.

However, that steady income is also one of the downsides of the job because TEFL teaching at an academy does not pay much. It's fine as a supplementary income, as it is in my case, or for a single person with a simple lifestyle. But it's really not enough to support a family. As others have mentioned there's also the timetable problem if you're trying to balance family life and academy work. I work from 4:00-10:00pm, which leaves no time to be with kids or OH. 

You really need to feel out the market of any place that you consider for your move, because you may find that there's no need for more TEFL teachers. The market around here is pretty saturated between academies and private teachers, although truthfully there are not that many native, qualified teachers around. The thing is plenty of parents are perfectly content for their kid to be taught by a Spaniard with no qualifications except a Spanish university degree, because their going rate is about 35€/month for 3 hours a week. Qualified TEFL teachers know that the students get what they pay for, but parents often can't get past the lure of the cheap price. It makes it hard to compete when money is so tight for so many families.


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## mooneycat

Thanks kalohi...this is a very honest view and I appreciate honesty...I have been self-employed for about 7 years and maybe its time to find an ' umbrella' as its hard work...and I do understand about family budgets being tight...thank you so much for one of the best and most impartial responses I have received so far which isn't discouraging....!! I realise I know very little and need to learn but want to move and try ...so thanks! mooneycat ( joanna x)


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## mooneycat

Thanks Pesky! Really appreciate you taking time to advise me...I need it!

mooneycat ( Joanna )


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## ANNIE100

I taught in the Canaries at a Language School a number of years ago and agree the pay wasn't very good then. However I found most of the teachers were either on a Gap Year or just finished Uni and wanted to travel and only wanted to stay either for a year or two and then move to another country. It was different at the Acadamies though where students went full time. I did a few private lessons and was told between £12-15 per hour was reasonable. Most of my private lessons were from recommendations from teachers who had too much private work.


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## mooneycat

Thanks Annie100 for sharing that....guess if I did find employment in a teaching institution things could open up gradually....appreciate you sharing your experience and knowledge...best wishes mooneycat


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## David1979

Just out of curiosity Mooneycat, what TEFL qualification do you have?


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## mooneycat

Hi David...not a CELTA or an extended TEFL qualification but have just finished the Cambridge online 140 hours TKT which was great and went through so many important things... like grammar! that the PGCE in English did not! This has fired me up enormously! Hopefully the two together might make me more attractive to an employer plus I am working with foreign students here in Belfast at present ( mainly PET exams) and conversation. Also Spanish children come and stay here in the summer to learn English.

Thanks for your interest David


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## David1979

mooneycat said:


> Hi David...not a CELTA or an extended TEFL qualification but have just finished the Cambridge online 140 hours TKT which was great and went through so many important things... like grammar! that the PGCE in English did not! This has fired me up enormously! Hopefully the two together might make me more attractive to an employer plus I am working with foreign students here in Belfast at present ( mainly PET exams) and conversation. Also Spanish children come and stay here in the summer to learn English.
> 
> Thanks for your interest David


Ah, okay. My sister teaches English in Sweden and she says that anything outwith a CELTA or Trinity qualification isn't really worth much these days. Not sure what those are right enough, but there you go.

She also said there's a lot of online courses that aren't worth much, and aren't worth investing in.


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## Pesky Wesky

David1979 said:


> Ah, okay. My sister teaches English in Sweden and she says that anything outwith a CELTA or Trinity qualification isn't really worth much these days. Not sure what those are right enough, but there you go.
> 
> She also said there's a lot of online courses that aren't worth much, and aren't worth investing in.


Many people on here are qualified teachersand would agree with that.
The qualifications that"matter" may differ around the world and of course depending on what you want to do with that qualification. Some countries ask for a degree + CELTA, or even a masters to work in some institutions whereas some after school centres think that someone who spent a year in the UK as an aupair will make a good teacher.
However, as we have said on many an occasion here, to teach in a good academy you are usually required to have, as your sister says, CELTA or Trinity and a year's experience. International schools will require (or should anyway) PGCE, B Ed or similar and Spanish state schools require a public examination in which you're fighting against thousands of Spanish teachers who although may not speak better English than you do, certainly know the system better!
The OP has a slightly unusual qualification which is usually done by non native teachers, but this basic qualification, plus the experience that she has may be good enough for an academy to take her on.
Personally I think academy work is essential experience for an English teacher before going out in a foreign country as a self employed worker. But a good academy will ask for qualifications and experience. Although, as I have also said before, working in a not so good or even bad academy is also useful experience.
TEFL.com is one place to look for jobs...


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## Pesky Wesky

ANNIE100;3309313 I did a few private lessons and was told between £12-15 per hour was reasonable. Most of my private lessons were from recommendations from teachers who had too much private work.[/QUOTE said:


> Cash in hand?


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## David1979

Pesky Wesky said:


> Cash in hand?


Is there any other way of doing business in Spain?


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## kalohi

David1979 said:


> Ah, okay. My sister teaches English in Sweden and she says that anything outwith a CELTA or Trinity qualification isn't really worth much these days. Not sure what those are right enough, but there you go.
> 
> She also said there's a lot of online courses that aren't worth much, and aren't worth investing in.


The language academy I work for requires CELTA or Trinity plus experience, preferable in preparing students for the Cambridge exams.


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## David1979

kalohi said:


> The language academy I work for requires CELTA or Trinity plus experience, preferable in preparing students for the Cambridge exams.


Yeah, I'm not all that clued up on it to be honest. My sister has a Trinity qualification, plus a degree, and she has over ten years experience of teaching in schools.

She seems to get by on that.


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## mooneycat

Thanks again for all this info...really appreciate it !!


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## Pesky Wesky

David1979 said:


> Is there any other way of doing business in Spain?


Yes, there is.
I've earned my living in academies as a teacher, in an academy which was a co operative that I part owned and for over 10 years (nearly 15 I think) as a self employed company class teacher and programme organiser. All legal.
I _have_ had cash in hand classes since becoming self employed, but I estimate they have made up 1 -2% of my income.
If you want to do it, you can.


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> tell me about it..... I'm just glad they're old enough to be pretty self-sufficient so that I _can _work these dreadful hours - lord knows what would have happened if their dad had died when they were younger & needed more looking after


Absolutely.
Having a TEFL teacher as a main salary earner with kids is ...well it's very difficult to make it doable what with the timetables and the money


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## mooneycat

Hi Peskywesky...I am sure learning a lot from you! You must be a teacher or something!! I thank you for taking an interest and sharing your thoughts and experience very much....Yeah the Cambridge On-line 104 hours is nowhere near a Celta but I am thinking my PGCE and teaching experience will help...the first job I ever after graduating with an English degree was working in a language school in Athens...but alas I am no longer 24!! and really just want to get stuck in as quick as possible...this time bringing a lot more skill. So good to hear everyone's thoughts even if some of them are challenging. Thanks for all your input PW...very good to hear from you!!


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## xabiaxica

David1979 said:


> Is there any other way of doing business in Spain?


errr... yeah...


you could actually work legally

you can, like me & the others on this forum, pay your autónomo, tax, etc etc - & NOW I also have to be registered under the personal data protection act & pay an annual fee for the privilege!!

yes, plenty do work on the black - they are usually very cheap, undercutting those of us who do it legally 

they aren't usually around very long though


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## snikpoh

kalohi said:


> The language academy I work for requires CELTA or Trinity plus experience, preferable in preparing students for the Cambridge exams.



What level of Trinity would that be?

My son has just, finally, found some where in Spain that will allow him to take the Trinity exams (before they refused as he's English!!). He'll be taking C2 (or C1 can't quite remember).


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## Pesky Wesky

xabiachica said:


> you can, like me & the others on this forum, pay your autónomo, tax, etc etc - & NOW I also have to be registered under the personal data protection act & pay an annual fee for the privilege!!


Oh blimey. What's that????


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## Pesky Wesky

snikpoh said:


> What level of Trinity would that be?
> 
> My son has just, finally, found some where in Spain that will allow him to take the Trinity exams (before they refused as he's English!!). He'll be taking C2 (or C1 can't quite remember).


It's a teaching qualification, not a Trinity level
Trinity College London | Home

As native speaker your son should be doing grade 12. Why's he doing it?
http://www.trinitycollege.co.uk/site/?id=1803


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## kalohi

Pesky Wesky said:


> It's a teaching qualification, not a Trinity level
> Trinity College London | Home


Yes, the TESOL.


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## snikpoh

Pesky Wesky said:


> It's a teaching qualification, not a Trinity level
> Trinity College London | Home
> 
> As native speaker your son should be doing grade 12. Why's he doing it?
> Trinity College London | Home


Thanks for clearing that up.

The issue is that because our children came over when they were young, they have now spent more time in Spain than in England, and, consequently, their main language is now Spanish and/or Valencian.

They have spend 7+ years at school here yet only a couple in UK.

How should we define "native speaker"? Yes, their main language at home is English but as soon as they leave the front door it's not. My daughter would probably argue that English is her second or even third language now.


The Trinity rules are really stupid! If you are born in UK (have a UK passport) and even if you only stay in Uk for the first month, you are still considered native English and are not usually allowed to take the exams.


The bottom line is that we want better English qualifications for our children than the qualifications achieved by everyone else at a Spanish school. 

My eldest is considering teaching at some point in the future. If a prospective employer looks at his CV it won't stand out above any other candidate. In fact, they may have the Trinity qualification whilst he won't! How can he show them, on paper, that his English is better?


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## xabiaxica

snikpoh said:


> Thanks for clearing that up.
> 
> The issue is that because our children came over when they were young, they have now spent more time in Spain than in England, and, consequently, their main language is now Spanish and/or Valencian.
> 
> They have spend 7+ years at school here yet only a couple in UK.
> 
> How should we define "native speaker"? Yes, their main language at home is English but as soon as they leave the front door it's not. My daughter would probably argue that English is her second or even third language now.
> 
> 
> The Trinity rules are really stupid! If you are born in UK (have a UK passport) and even if you only stay in Uk for the first month, you are still considered native English and are not usually allowed to take the exams.
> 
> 
> The bottom line is that we want better English qualifications for our children than the qualifications achieved by everyone else at a Spanish school.
> 
> My eldest is considering teaching at some point in the future. If a prospective employer looks at his CV it won't stand out above any other candidate. In fact, they may have the Trinity qualification whilst he won't! How can he show them, on paper, that his English is better?


my girls are in the same position

the head of English is looking for a way for my older daughter to do a Cambridge exam of some kind


----------



## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> Oh blimey. What's that????


that was pretty much my reaction when I found out about it!!

any business, including the self-employed, which holds any personal data about clients - even just name & phone number - is legally supposed to be registered under the personal data protection act

I'm having to get all my students & other clients to complete a form with the info I already have (name, NIE/NIF, phone, address, FB details) & sign that they agree to me having the info & that they understand that I have it for my own business purposes, & that if they want me to destroy it at any time they have to tell me in writing!!


----------



## baldilocks

snikpoh said:


> Thanks for clearing that up.
> 
> The issue is that because our children came over when they were young, they have now spent more time in Spain than in England, and, consequently, their main language is now Spanish and/or Valencian.
> 
> They have spend 7+ years at school here yet only a couple in UK.
> 
> How should we define "native speaker"? Yes, their main language at home is English but as soon as they leave the front door it's not. My daughter would probably argue that English is her second or even third language now.
> 
> 
> The Trinity rules are really stupid! If you are born in UK (have a UK passport) and even if you only stay in Uk for the first month, you are still considered native English and are not usually allowed to take the exams.
> 
> 
> The bottom line is that we want better English qualifications for our children than the qualifications achieved by everyone else at a Spanish school.
> 
> My eldest is considering teaching at some point in the future. If a prospective employer looks at his CV it won't stand out above any other candidate. In fact, they may have the Trinity qualification whilst he won't! How can he show them, on paper, that his English is better?


How about the Cambridge exam - it is, as far as I have been told, far better than Trinity but, of course a bit harder. It seems that it is like comparing a GCE from the 50s with a modern dumbed-down GCSE.


----------



## ANNIE100

Do have any links giving more info on this please


----------



## xabiaxica

ANNIE100 said:


> Do have any links giving more info on this please


on what??


----------



## ANNIE100

Just more info really i.e. when the legislation came in or to get more info please


----------



## kalohi

snikpoh said:


> Thanks for clearing that up.
> 
> The issue is that because our children came over when they were young, they have now spent more time in Spain than in England, and, consequently, their main language is now Spanish and/or Valencian.
> 
> They have spend 7+ years at school here yet only a couple in UK.
> 
> How should we define "native speaker"? Yes, their main language at home is English but as soon as they leave the front door it's not. My daughter would probably argue that English is her second or even third language now.
> 
> 
> The Trinity rules are really stupid! If you are born in UK (have a UK passport) and even if you only stay in Uk for the first month, you are still considered native English and are not usually allowed to take the exams.
> 
> 
> The bottom line is that we want better English qualifications for our children than the qualifications achieved by everyone else at a Spanish school.
> 
> My eldest is considering teaching at some point in the future. If a prospective employer looks at his CV it won't stand out above any other candidate. In fact, they may have the Trinity qualification whilst he won't! How can he show them, on paper, that his English is better?





xabiachica said:


> my girls are in the same position
> 
> the head of English is looking for a way for my older daughter to do a Cambridge exam of some kind


Same here for my kids. They both took the Cambridge FCE several years ago so that they'd have something to prove their level of English. But they have a Spanish father and were born in Spain, so nobody questioned if they were native speakers or not. It was just assumed they were native Spanish. Actually their first language is in fact Spanish although they are fluent in English - just not as fluent as Spanish I'd say because their vocabulary isn't as extensive.

On an aside and thinking of exams, last year my daughter took her univeristy entrance exams (selectividad) and only got a 7.8 on the English exam. We were STUNNED. I am absolutely 100% certain that she could talk and write circles around any of the Spanish born teachers of English who corrected her exam. So what exactly does that exam prove?? Definitely NOT the fluency of the students sitting the exam.


----------



## baldilocks

kalohi said:


> On an aside and thinking of exams, last year my daughter took her univeristy entrance exams (selectividad) and only got a 7.8 on the English exam. We were STUNNED. I am absolutely 100% certain that she could talk and write circles around any of the Spanish born teachers of English who corrected her exam. So what exactly does that exam prove?? Definitely NOT the fluency of the students sitting the exam.


It proves that Spanish born teachers of English are, in some/many cases not very fluent themselves. They may be able to speak with a fair degree of fluency but when it comes to the pure grammar and usages of the language they are not so good as the arguments with some of the local schoolteachers have shown in the past.


----------



## 213979

Pesky Wesky said:


> Absolutely.
> Having a TEFL teacher as a main salary earner with kids is ...well it's very difficult to make it doable what with the timetables and the money


I can only imagine. I'm praying OH will start getting full-time "vacantes" ASAP. He has a part time vacante this year. If not, things are going to be tough.


----------



## 213979

snikpoh said:


> Thanks for clearing that up.
> 
> The issue is that because our children came over when they were young, they have now spent more time in Spain than in England, and, consequently, their main language is now Spanish and/or Valencian.
> 
> They have spend 7+ years at school here yet only a couple in UK.
> 
> How should we define "native speaker"? Yes, their main language at home is English but as soon as they leave the front door it's not. My daughter would probably argue that English is her second or even third language now.
> 
> 
> The Trinity rules are really stupid! If you are born in UK (have a UK passport) and even if you only stay in Uk for the first month, you are still considered native English and are not usually allowed to take the exams.
> 
> 
> The bottom line is that we want better English qualifications for our children than the qualifications achieved by everyone else at a Spanish school.
> 
> My eldest is considering teaching at some point in the future. If a prospective employer looks at his CV it won't stand out above any other candidate. In fact, they may have the Trinity qualification whilst he won't! How can he show them, on paper, that his English is better?


Have him get the qualification. 

I have my Cambridge Proficiency qualification because it will get me points if I ever choose to do the oposiciones. Also, it helped me get my current job. 

The folks at Cambridge/The British Council Bilbao didn't even blink an eye, despite the fact that I'm a native speaker. 

Tell your kids that even though it sounds silly, it really is a good idea. Also, have them go for the C2. Max it out!


----------



## 213979

kalohi said:


> Same here for my kids. They both took the Cambridge FCE several years ago so that they'd have something to prove their level of English. But they have a Spanish father and were born in Spain, so nobody questioned if they were native speakers or not. It was just assumed they were native Spanish. Actually their first language is in fact Spanish although they are fluent in English - just not as fluent as Spanish I'd say because their vocabulary isn't as extensive.
> 
> On an aside and thinking of exams, last year my daughter took her univeristy entrance exams (selectividad) and only got a 7.8 on the English exam. We were STUNNED. I am absolutely 100% certain that she could talk and write circles around any of the Spanish born teachers of English who corrected her exam. So what exactly does that exam prove?? Definitely NOT the fluency of the students sitting the exam.



If they're willing, have them try to get more than a FCE. As I said earlier, go for the max. 

In my region, teachers only need a B2 to teach in the bilingual program. Rumor has it that they're looking to change this to a C1. With a FCE alone, your kids wouldn't have the official paper saying they could teach _bilingue_! 


Talking about the selectividad results, a number of things could have happened. She might not have answered specific parts of the question or she might have missed something in a text. Heck, the grumpy looking British man who graded my CPE speaking took a point off. Why? I got nervous because there was a grumpy looking British man staring at me and writing as I spoke. Due to the stress, I started talking very quickly and ineloquently. He was right to take a point off. I am certain that the Spanish kid I did the exam with got a better grade than me on the speaking part. He did brilliantly!


----------



## 213979

baldilocks said:


> It proves that Spanish born teachers of English are, in some/many cases not very fluent themselves. They may be able to speak with a fair degree of fluency but when it comes to the pure grammar and usages of the language they are not so good as the arguments with some of the local schoolteachers have shown in the past.


I think we need to be VERY careful with this sort of statement. This has not been the case with my colleagues in the past. I have found their grammar to be excellent as well as having a high level of fluency.


----------



## jojo

elenetxu said:


> I think we need to be VERY careful with this sort of statement. This has not been the case with my colleagues in the past. I have found their grammar to be excellent as well as having a high level of fluency.



Purely anecdotal, but my daughter attended a so called "bilingual school" in Spain and (apart from the fact she wasnt allowed to attend the bilingual lessons as they were for Spanish to learn English, not vice versa), the teachers who taught in English, were far from fluent. The grammar was fair, but the pronunciation and use of words wasnt "bilingual" at all. I struggled to understand what they were talking about. I found this out while waiting outside of the lessons to speak with the teacher to complain that my daughter wasnt allowed to be in these classes!!!!!

In the end, she went to an international school, where there were a couple of Spanish teachers, one of whom taught physics - with such a heavy Spanish accent, that it made the lessons incredibly difficult lol


Jo xxx


----------



## 213979

jojo said:


> Purely anecdotal, but my daughter attended a so called "bilingual school" in Spain and (apart from the fact she wasnt allowed to attend the bilingual lessons as they were for Spanish to learn English, not vice versa), the teachers who taught in English, were far from fluent. The grammar was fair, but the pronunciation and use of words wasnt "bilingual" at all. I struggled to understand what they were talking about. I found this out while waiting outside of the lessons to speak with the teacher to complain that my daughter wasnt allowed to be in these classes!!!!!
> 
> In the end, she went to an international school, where there were a couple of Spanish teachers, one of whom taught physics - with such a heavy Spanish accent, that it made the lessons incredibly difficult lol
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Bilingual education is just that: education in two languages. 

Again, I worked in bilingual public schools for five years and I had a very good experience. That being said, there are loads of factors at play. All of this is enough to warrant another thread, if you're interested. I take all the "the local teachers' English isn't that great!" talk very personally. After all, these generalizations are targeting my friends and colleagues.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kalohi said:


> Yes, the TESOL.


Well, strictly speaking TESOL is just an acronym for Teaching English as a Second Language. The Trinity qualification is the The Trinity Certificate in Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages (CertTESOL) just as TEFL just means Teaching English as a Foreign Language

More info here on the course for those interested 
Trinity College London | Home
CertTESOL Trinity CertTESOL - Level 5 on the Qualifications and Credit Framework (QCF)
Level 5 is regarded as comparable in difficulty to the second year of an undergraduate degree.
The Trinity Certificate in Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages (CertTESOL) is a TESOL or TEFL (Teaching English as a Foreign Language) certificate designed for those with little or no experience of teaching English. It equips candidates with the basic skills and knowledge needed to take up a first post as an ESOL teacher. It gives an introduction to the theory and practice of English teaching and an insight into the challenges facing the learner and the role of the teacher.
The CertTESOL is accepted by the British Council as an initial TESOL or TEFL qualification for teachers in its accredited teaching organisations in the UK and in its own teaching operations overseas. Credits are also awarded towards degree programmes offered by universities in the UK.
The CertTESOL Course Content summary provides key information for course members.
Guide to choosing your initial TESOL/TEFL course:
If you are thinking of becoming a teacher of English to speakers of other languages, and are looking for a course leading to a qualification that will help you get a job with a good employer, please read the 'Guide to choosing your 1st TESOL or TEFL course.'
You will see many training courses advertised for Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages (TESOL) or Teaching English as a Foreign Language (TEFL). Therefore when you are choosing a course which aims to prepare and qualify you for your first English teaching job, it is in your interest to choose a course which will offer you a high standard of training and a recognised certification.
English Language Teaching (ELT) is a profession like other areas of teaching; where a good training course is an essential starting point for maintaining high professional standards for high quality student learning.
*Level 5 is regarded as comparable in difficulty to the second year of an undergraduate degree*.
The Trinity Certificate in Teaching English to Speakers of Other Languages (CertTESOL) is a TESOL or TEFL (Teaching English as a Foreign Language) certificate designed for those with little or no experience of teaching English. It equips candidates with the basic skills and knowledge needed to take up a first post as an ESOL teacher. It gives an introduction to the theory and practice of English teaching and an insight into the challenges facing the learner and the role of the teacher.


There's also the CELTA which can be studied here in Spain, not sure if the Trinity offers that possibility.
There's some info on examining centres here, but that's not necesarily where you can do the course (although you probably can) so there may be other centres which will run a course - in Madrid for example the British Language Centre
Encuentre un centro de formación para profesores


----------



## 213979

More thoughts (I have a bee in my bonnet.): 

I majored in Spanish at uni. My Master's Degree focused on Spanish Language Education (for natives - this is a bureaucracy nightmare to be discussed another time.) I have lived in Spain for five years, during all of which I have spent roughly 90% of the time communicating in Spanish. I have a certified C2 level of the language. 

HOWEVER

If you were a native speaker and came into my classroom, sat down, and listened to me speak Spanish I am certain you would find faults and make the same sort of comments we are making about Spanish natives speaking English. Yes, I make mistakes. That's normal. I'm not a native. Sometimes my pronunciation is off. Sure. However, I've only been here five years and I am still learning. 

I am sorry that some of you have had bad experiences with the bilingual program and/or teachers. There are bad eggs anywhere. However, I have found the vast majority of my colleagues to be quite well-prepared and excellent professionals. You must, however, be fair and remember that when someone is not a native speaker they are going to commit the occasional error or have an accent. 

Gosh, some of you might even say my accent or vocabulary are not proper and that I shouldn't be teaching the language. Yes, I have heard this before. 

*sigh* That being said, I'm going to go teach people to spell color without a "u" and to say awesome.  

Good day.


----------



## kalohi

elenetxu said:


> If they're willing, have them try to get more than a FCE. As I said earlier, go for the max.
> 
> In my region, teachers only need a B2 to teach in the bilingual program. Rumor has it that they're looking to change this to a C1. With a FCE alone, your kids wouldn't have the official paper saying they could teach _bilingue_!


The plan is for them to eventual take CAE (C1). But when each of them took the FC exam they were only 15, and I didn't think they had the analytical skills necessary to pass CAE. I also didn't think their writing was sophisticated enough. So they took FCE for Schools (geared towards teens). There isn't a CAE for Schools. 

My kids aren't at all interested in teaching, but you never know where life might take them. I agree that they should get the maximum level of certified English possible. It always looks good on a resume no matter what job they might aspire to. 




elenetxu said:


> Talking about the selectividad results, a number of things could have happened. She might not have answered specific parts of the question or she might have missed something in a text. Heck, the grumpy looking British man who graded my CPE speaking took a point off. Why? I got nervous because there was a grumpy looking British man staring at me and writing as I spoke. Due to the stress, I started talking very quickly and ineloquently. He was right to take a point off. I am certain that the Spanish kid I did the exam with got a better grade than me on the speaking part. He did brilliantly!


I have no doubt that she got nervous and messed something up. It happens. But more than 2 points worth?? She's a pretty cool headed kid who tests well, so that's why we were so surprised. When my son did the university entrance exams he got a 9 point something (can't remember exactly) and that seemed more in line with what we'd expected. Oh well, it's all water under the bridge, and my daughter is perfectly happy with where she ended up at university.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mooneycat said:


> Hi Peskywesky...I am sure learning a lot from you! You must be a teacher or something!! I thank you for taking an interest and sharing your thoughts and experience very much....Yeah the Cambridge On-line 104 hours is nowhere near a Celta but I am thinking my PGCE and teaching experience will help...the first job I ever after graduating with an English degree was working in a language school in Athens...but alas I am no longer 24!! and really just want to get stuck in as quick as possible...this time bringing a lot more skill. So good to hear everyone's thoughts even if some of them are challenging. Thanks for all your input PW...very good to hear from you!!


Well, it's one af the few things I actually know about and I enjoy talking about it too


----------



## Pesky Wesky

snikpoh said:


> Thanks for clearing that up.
> 
> The issue is that because our children came over when they were young, they have now spent more time in Spain than in England, and, consequently, their main language is now Spanish and/or Valencian.
> 
> They have spend 7+ years at school here yet only a couple in UK.
> 
> How should we define "native speaker"? Yes, their main language at home is English but as soon as they leave the front door it's not. My daughter would probably argue that English is her second or even third language now.
> 
> 
> The Trinity rules are really stupid! If you are born in UK (have a UK passport) and even if you only stay in Uk for the first month, you are still considered native English and are not usually allowed to take the exams.
> 
> 
> The bottom line is that we want better English qualifications for our children than the qualifications achieved by everyone else at a Spanish school.
> 
> My eldest is considering teaching at some point in the future. If a prospective employer looks at his CV it won't stand out above any other candidate. In fact, they may have the Trinity qualification whilst he won't! How can he show them, on paper, that his English is better?


I'm not so sure the Trinity rules are really stupid, but anyway...
The Trinity, although involves some kind of project work is just a speaking test I think. (I only know the lower levels) It's a good test, but the Cambridge test all 4 major skills ie Reading, Writing, Listening and Speaking and that's why it's preferred by people who know anything about tests. Therefore, as I believe other members have said I would recommend the Cambridge exams. 
OH is an FP teacher and he needs the Advanced to be able to teach in English at this level. He did it last year and although he passed both he and I would faint if he ever had to teach his subjects in English. This level does not prepare you to teach in English, but "officially" it does!
So again, I'd say go for the Proficiency. However, I cannot stress enough that he shoud not just turn up at the exam and think that as a native he'll breeze through it. It is a very high level and he'll need to know his way around the exam just so that he doesn't make silly mistakes and lose points for not knowing the "technique" for doing something. Maybe elenetxu could give you her opinion about this having done the exam herself. Also look on youtube for an example of the speaking test. I recently saw one and was surprised as the level did not seem as high as I'd thought, but the reading and use of English papers can be quite tough. Look here for an example paper. The exam changed in 2013, so you need materials which state that they are for the new exam
How to prepare for Cambridge English: Proficiency (CPE) | Cambridge English


----------



## baldilocks

baldilocks said:


> It proves that Spanish born teachers of English are, in some/many cases not very fluent themselves. They may be able to speak with a fair degree of fluency but when it comes to the pure grammar and usages of the language they are not so good as the arguments with some of the local schoolteachers have shown in the past.


Please note I DID NOT SAY "ALL" and I accept that some are very good, even excellent. 

Quite co-incidentally The phone has just rug and it was a Spanish teacher whose English I would class as excellent. There are others around here whom I would not describe that way - one whose accent is thicker than molasses in January such that pupils have difficulty in understanding her, even in Spanish.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

kalohi said:


> The plan is for them to eventual take CAE (C1). But when each of them took the FC exam they were only 15, and I didn't think they had the analytical skills necessary to pass CAE. I also didn't think their writing was sophisticated enough. So they took FCE for Schools (geared towards teens). There isn't a CAE for Schools.


I know what you mean.
My daughter did the CAE last year at 18 and was not ready for it maturity wise before I think. Plenty of youngsters do do it, (I am an oral examiner) but how much do they get out of it I wonder, or rather how much more could they get out of something geared to a younger audience. Cambridge really need to get an Advanced for schools out.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

elenetxu said:


> If they're willing, have them try to get more than a FCE. As I said earlier, go for the max.
> 
> In my region, teachers only need a B2 to teach in the bilingual program. Rumor has it that they're looking to change this to a C1. With a FCE alone, your kids wouldn't have the official paper saying they could teach _bilingue_!
> 
> 
> Talking about the selectividad results, a number of things could have happened. She might not have answered specific parts of the question or she might have missed something in a text. Heck, the grumpy looking British man who graded my CPE speaking took a point off. Why? I got nervous because there was a grumpy looking British man staring at me and writing as I spoke. Due to the stress, I started talking very quickly and ineloquently. He was right to take a point off. I am certain that the Spanish kid I did the exam with got a better grade than me on the speaking part. He did brilliantly!


Well he shoudn't have taken marks off for that.
You're supposed be marked on what you know, not what you don't. You're not supposed to be perfect and you're not supposed to be compared with the other candidate either...


----------



## kalohi

elenetxu said:


> More thoughts (I have a bee in my bonnet.):
> 
> I majored in Spanish at uni. My Master's Degree focused on Spanish Language Education (for natives - this is a bureaucracy nightmare to be discussed another time.) I have lived in Spain for five years, during all of which I have spent roughly 90% of the time communicating in Spanish. I have a certified C2 level of the language.
> 
> HOWEVER
> 
> If you were a native speaker and came into my classroom, sat down, and listened to me speak Spanish I am certain you would find faults and make the same sort of comments we are making about Spanish natives speaking English. Yes, I make mistakes. That's normal. I'm not a native. Sometimes my pronunciation is off. Sure. However, I've only been here five years and I am still learning.
> 
> I am sorry that some of you have had bad experiences with the bilingual program and/or teachers. There are bad eggs anywhere. However, I have found the vast majority of my colleagues to be quite well-prepared and excellent professionals. You must, however, be fair and remember that when someone is not a native speaker they are going to commit the occasional error or have an accent.
> 
> Gosh, some of you might even say my accent or vocabulary are not proper and that I shouldn't be teaching the language. Yes, I have heard this before.
> 
> *sigh* That being said, I'm going to go teach people to spell color without a "u" and to say awesome.
> 
> Good day.


I was criticizing the _exam_, not the teachers. I didn't mean to imply that my daughter's teachers were no good at English or teaching. My point was that a high school ESOL exam that rates a native speaker as anything less than top mark is a poorly designed exam. I know it sounds snotty but I can't help but ask myself, who are those teachers to tell me that my daughter doesn't speak perfect English, when I know she does? Ah well, I'm not losing any sleep over it because it all ended up ok. 

I agree that there are lots of very qualified non-native English/bilingual teachers out there. But not all of them are. At least here in Andalucia they freely admit that they've put the horse before the cart as far as bilingual education goes. There are simply not enough qualified bilingual teachers for all the bilingual programs that they've opened. I've had quite a few FC students (so not yet B2 level) who are teaching bilingual. I can't imagine how they can do it. I don't think that's doing any of the students a favor. 

And yes, along with you I will continue to write favor, and not favour.


----------



## baldilocks

kalohi said:


> My point was that a high school ESOL exam that rates a native speaker as anything less than top mark is a poorly designed exam.


I don't agree. One has only to look at some of the postings on the forum to see that the standard of English of many native speakers is far from top grade. I know that it is only a forum but any person worth his/her salt will still write correct English no matter what the situation. I do accept that typos exist, often in my own postings, but in most cases typos shout "typo" not bad English.


----------



## kalohi

baldilocks said:


> I don't agree. One has only to look at some of the postings on the forum to see that the standard of English of many native speakers is far from top grade. I know that it is only a forum but any person worth his/her salt will still write correct English no matter what the situation. I do accept that typos exist, often in my own postings, but in most cases typos shout "typo" not bad English.


Here on the forum as in elsewhere in life there are people from all walks of life, which is fine - in fact, beneficial, so that we can see many varied points of view. But when I say native speaker I'm refering to a native speaker who is taking the university entrance exams, ie A levels. I would expect any native speaker of that level to be able to answer a few questions about a very short text, transform a few sentences, and write 120 words about a simple topic. (Or am I delusional?)


----------



## baldilocks

kalohi said:


> Here on the forum as in elsewhere in life there are people from all walks of life, which is fine - in fact, beneficial, so that we can see many varied points of view. But when I say native speaker I'm refering to a native speaker who is taking the university entrance exams, ie A levels. I would expect any native speaker of that level to be able to answer a few questions about a very short text, transform a few sentences, and write 120 words about a simple topic. (Or am I delusional?)


With the modern youth in mind I would say probably more "optimistic".


----------



## David1979

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, there is.
> I've earned my living in academies as a teacher, in an academy which was a co operative that I part owned and for over 10 years (nearly 15 I think) as a self employed company class teacher and programme organiser. All legal.
> I _have_ had cash in hand classes since becoming self employed, but I estimate they have made up 1 -2% of my income.
> If you want to do it, you can.





xabiachica said:


> errr... yeah...
> 
> 
> you could actually work legally
> 
> you can, like me & the others on this forum, pay your autónomo, tax, etc etc - & NOW I also have to be registered under the personal data protection act & pay an annual fee for the privilege!!
> 
> yes, plenty do work on the black - they are usually very cheap, undercutting those of us who do it legally
> 
> they aren't usually around very long though


I had hoped the winking face at the end of my post would have given away the fact that I was jesting :sorry:

I certainly wouldn't encourage anyone to work "in the black", although I don't grudge anyone who does if I'm honest.

I, like most of you, am one of those saps who pays his taxes on time and who plays by the rules.

For the most part


----------



## mathos88

*University Cities*

If you do decide to move to Spain, I definitely think it's worth buying close to the local University, as there will always be students who need English classes.

This is even more true now that Spanish University's have begun to demand the B1 level of English in order for the student even to be given their degree. This may sound easy, but you would be surprised how many spaniards lack even that basic level...


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mathos88 said:


> If you do decide to move to Spain, I definitely think it's worth buying close to the local University, as there will always be students who need English classes.
> 
> This is even more true now that Spanish University's have begun to demand the B1 level of English in order for the student even to be given their degree. This may sound easy, but you would be surprised how many spaniards lack even that basic level...


Although you'd be competing with each university's Centro de Idiomas. But if you could get on the staff of one of those places you might be on pretty good rates. I was offered work at 2 private universities last year, but couldn't do it because of timetable clashes. Shame because they were both very high rates. They were asking for candidates that had lived in Spain for a long time, had 5 - 10 years experience etc etc though. I ended up with a couple of hours in a public university which is well paid but half of what the other places were offering
One big potential drawback with university work is that maybe you don't start until October and you may finish in May. They may offer course after that and they may not!


----------



## crissytwxx

Hello,

I have my own English academy in the Valencia region, I opened Sept 13, and we to date have 57 students, from 3 years to adults. Its a small academy with 3 rooms, one dedicated to the children with interactive whiteboard, games ect. 
We charge €48 a month for two 1 hour lessons a week. 

I teach and also have native English teachers which is gives us a high advantage over the other academies (I also agree Spanish shouldn't teach English, for example we actually teach Spanish English teachers...)

We are small but growing and if you really want it to work it will. Good Luck


----------



## fessex

mooneycat said:


> Hi ExPats Experts! We are thinking of selling up and relocating and running a small English School in Spain...probably from our home initially. ( This is our present employment in the UK and we are qualified TEFL teachers)
> 
> Any advice welcomed. The potential areas we had thought of were Murcia, Alicante , Malaga and Valencia...can anyone suggest the best potential base for this idea and help direct us to a location to look at property to buy.....guess our maximum budget would be upwards to £95 000...Is it correct that property in Malaga is much more expensive?
> 
> Would need to be not too rural and also near to established English Schools to seek work there and make contacts
> 
> We have not visited any of these cities!! But we have been to other parts of Spain so would really welcome some down to earth advice from anyone who knows about these bases.
> Thankyou very much!


When I studied Spanish in Spain, the language school was accredited by Cervantes which are listed on their website, they are responsible for monitoring and awarding the best language schools in Spain. I'm sure there is an English equivalent too, so I think you'd struggle against a lot of competition from accredited English language schools.


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## Pesky Wesky

elenetxu said:


> I think we need to be VERY careful with this sort of statement. This has not been the case with my colleagues in the past. I have found their grammar to be excellent as well as having a high level of fluency.


There are teachers and there are teachers, and having a native style accent doesn't necessarily make a good teacher (although it often does because it often, not always, implies an interest in language). 
I think there are actual benefits to having a well qualified, dedicated Spanish English teacher. They know where the Spaniards have difficulties with the English language first hand. As far as grammar goes we've often talked about how the Spanish study their own language in a purely grammatical fashion so they know more than the average Brit about Present Continuous and Future Perfect.
I have to say though, I interviewed candidates for the English programme of a local Town Hall and Baldi's right. Some of their accents were difficult, no extremely difficult to wade through.


----------



## ZFord

Hi,

I don't know anything about the start up or running costs of a business here but I am a native English teacher in a small town in Seville. The major cities are overun with Language accademies but in smaller towns there are hardly any. Where I work, it is a new accademy, opened in November last year. Within 2 months we were full to capacity and had to take on another teacher to put on extra classes.

The main griwth areas that I can see are yiung children and teenagers but adult classes are starting to become very popular especially students as some Universities now require a B1 minimum to continue their studies.

Hope this helps and good luck!
Zoe


----------



## mooneycat

ZFord said:


> Hi,
> 
> I don't know anything about the start up or running costs of a business here but I am a native English teacher in a small town in Seville. The major cities are overun with Language accademies but in smaller towns there are hardly any. Where I work, it is a new accademy, opened in November last year. Within 2 months we were full to capacity and had to take on another teacher to put on extra classes.
> 
> The main griwth areas that I can see are yiung children and teenagers but adult classes are starting to become very popular especially students as some Universities now require a B1 minimum to continue their studies.
> 
> Hope this helps and good luck!
> Zoe


Yes Zoe thank you! This is all very interesting and helpful. From all I have learned from people in this forum I think the way forward is to try and get a job like you first!! Best wishes and good to hear from you


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## ZFord

Your welcome and my apologies for my many grammatical errors! How embarrassing . Let me know if I can help you with anything, my advice would be mainly about small town living as this has been my only experie ce.


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## Cazzy

A year ago we were working for an English Academy in a medium sized town. We left because the owner didn't pay us. A lot of our students begged us to continue teaching them, which we did so in our own home. We have now decided to open our own Academy and it is an absolute nightmare due to the requirements from the Town hall. The main problem being the disabled toilets and access. We have become quite friendly with the inspector from the Town hall who looks at the properties we find and tells us what we need to do, most of which is expensive!! We have eventually found a premises which is perfect. We aim to get it up and running for September and hopefully we will employ more teachers, at the moment we are teaching ten hour days and we are exhausted!!


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## mooneycat

Hi Cazzy...appreciate you sharing your experiences..very interesting to hear....and very encouraging also! When you were at the stage of continuing the teaching in your home were there any specific official steps to take to achieve this or did it just happen as a natural extension by knowing your pupils? I am delighted to hear after all the work you have found somewhere just right and I wish you great success with it all ...wish I could help!
mooneycat


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## baldilocks

Cazzy: where is Isla Redonda?


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## Pesky Wesky

ZFord said:


> The main growth areas that I can see are young children and teenagers but adult classes are starting to become very popular especially students as some Universities now require a B1 minimum to continue their studies.
> 
> Hope this helps and good luck!
> Zoe


And some teachers are required to have B1/B2/C1 too


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## baldilocks

ZFord said:


> The main griwth areas that I can see are yiung children and teenagers but adult classes are starting to become very popular especially students as some Universities now require a B1 minimum to continue their studies.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Here the academies take from age 1½-2 years old.
> 
> The Royal College of Music in London requires at least B2


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## ZFord

In our accademy our youngest is 2 years old. I just want to say that while I am in awe of all of the teachers out there with numerous qualifications, I'd like to say that it is not necessary all of the time. I have a basic TEFL qualification and while applying for positions in the Seville area my qualifications were not the issue as much as lack of experience was (I am new to this profession). Where I am now I had no problem with this purely because I am native English speaking and also Spanish speaking. We have another teacher who is native Spanish English teacher with over 20 years experience and between us we compliment each other with our skills set. The big surprise I had was how intensive the grammatical side of English was in secondary schools but speaking seems to count for very little! 

As a side note, I know of an academy in Jerez de la Fronterra who are looking for a native English speaker. They are actually the sister company of our accademy. If anyone is interested let me know and I will give you more information. For some reason there are not as many native English speakers in the Cadiz area anymore!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

ZFord said:


> In our accademy our youngest is 2 years old. I just want to say that while I am in awe of all of the teachers out there with numerous qualifications, I'd like to say that it is not necessary all of the time. I have a basic TEFL qualification and while applying for positions in the Seville area my qualifications were not the issue as much as lack of experience was (I am new to this profession). Where I am now I had no problem with this purely because I am native English speaking and also Spanish speaking. We have another teacher who is native Spanish English teacher with over 20 years experience and between us we compliment each other with our skills set. The big surprise I had was how intensive the grammatical side of English was in secondary schools but speaking seems to count for very little!
> 
> As a side note, I know of an academy in Jerez de la Fronterra who are looking for a native English speaker. They are actually the sister company of our accademy. If anyone is interested let me know and I will give you more information. For some reason there are not as many native English speakers in the Cadiz area anymore!


State schools basically prepare students for the leaving exams at 16 and 18 and there is no oral part in either of these. Schools unfortunately tend to prepare students for exams and not real life, and therefore there's no speaking, but a lot of grammar. They keep on saying that there will be an oral for PAU (Prueba de Aceso a la Universidad AKA Selectividad) but the truth is they just haven't got the qualified staff to do so atm, so if they did do it, and they might well,(!) I would expect a possible shambles. 
Here in Madrid and I think in the whole of Spain, there's a huge drive for the kids to do the Cambridge exams right from Starters, Movers, Flyers up to Advanced. I'm an oral examiner for the KET, PET and First Cert and I've had very well prepared candidates in the privates and semi privates. I haven't been available to do testing in the state schools, so haven't been able to compare


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## 213979

Pesky Wesky said:


> State schools basically prepare students for the leaving exams at 16 and 18 and there is no oral part in either of these. Schools unfortunately tend to prepare students for exams and not real life, and therefore there's no speaking, but a lot of grammar. They keep on saying that there will be an oral for PAU (Prueba de Aceso a la Universidad AKA Selectividad) but the truth is they just haven't got the qualified staff to do so atm, so if they did do it, and they might well,(!) I would expect a possible shambles.
> Here in Madrid and I think in the whole of Spain, there's a huge drive for the kids to do the Cambridge exams right from Starters, Movers, Flyers up to Advanced. I'm an oral examiner for the KET, PET and First Cert and I've had very well prepared candidates in the privates and semi privates. I haven't been available to do testing in the state schools, so haven't been able to compare




1. Unis are requiring at least a B1 to graduate. In the case of the Uni Cantabria, it's a B2!!! 

2. What do you think about the PUBLIC schools paying fees to Cambridge or whatnot? Up here, the bilingual program kids can do the EOI exams this year for free, as long as they're in 4ºESO. They used to take the Trinity. 

3. I feel better about my CPE result now that I know you're an examiner and since you made the comment you did when I posted about my 9/10. :hug:


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## ZFord

Pesky Wesky said:


> State schools basically prepare students for the leaving exams at 16 and 18 and there is no oral part in either of these. Schools unfortunately tend to prepare students for exams and not real life, and therefore there's no speaking, but a lot of grammar. They keep on saying that there will be an oral for PAU (Prueba de Aceso a la Universidad AKA Selectividad) but the truth is they just haven't got the qualified staff to do so atm, so if they did do it, and they might well,(!) I would expect a possible shambles.
> Here in Madrid and I think in the whole of Spain, there's a huge drive for the kids to do the Cambridge exams right from Starters, Movers, Flyers up to Advanced. I'm an oral examiner for the KET, PET and First Cert and I've had very well prepared candidates in the privates and semi privates. I haven't been available to do testing in the state schools, so haven't been able to compare


I haven't seen much evidence of this here in Seville but more a case of Bachiller students wanting to secure their B1 and B2 earlier so that they are ready for University. It just really surprised me the level of oral English they have. One student of mine was initially very confused because I couldn't understand much of what she was saying when she started and regulary had to correct her pronunciation yet she has been gaining 8/10 or 9/10 in speaking exams at school!


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## Inalra

Hi Zoe,

I am hopefully relocating to the Jerez area late summer with my half-Spanish husband and I would be interested in the job you mention. I have a TEFL qualification and I am currently working on a Young Learner Specialist certificate. I don't want to put my email address on here, is there anyway I can contact you privately? Thanks!


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## baldilocks

Inalra said:


> Hi Zoe,
> 
> I am hopefully relocating to the Jerez area late summer with my half-Spanish husband and I would be interested in the job you mention. I have a TEFL qualification and I am currently working on a Young Learner Specialist certificate. I don't want to put my email address on here, is there anyway I can contact you privately? Thanks!


You need to get your posts up in quantity to at least five and then you will gain access to the PM (Private message) facility


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## Pesky Wesky

elenetxu said:


> 1. Unis are requiring at least a B1 to graduate. In the case of the Uni Cantabria, it's a B2!!!
> 
> 2. What do you think about the PUBLIC schools paying fees to Cambridge or whatnot? Up here, the bilingual program kids can do the EOI exams this year for free, as long as they're in 4ºESO. They used to take the Trinity.
> 
> 3. I feel better about my CPE result now that I know you're an examiner and since you made the comment you did when I posted about my 9/10. :hug:


1. Yes, I think it's B2 in the uni that I'm at.
2. I think Cambridge is raking it in!! There's obviously an agreement with the Ministry of Ed and Cambridge. I hadn't heard about the EOI deal. I wonder if it's on here too. If it is, even though I'm an examiner I'm going to start telling people about it! 
I've been thinking recently about how the Ministry of Ed really needs to get its head around some national exams that work in the same way as the Cambridge. I suppose the logical way to do that would to build up the EOI, but I know that they actually reduced the number of employees last year and closed classes. Ex students of mine wanted to sign on as the company has closed their in company classes and there weren't enough places. A really good policy for a country that's supposedly building a future bilingual workforce!!
3. Well I don't do Advanced, but the policies are the same and recently I looked at some sample Proficiency speaking videos. They were not as good as I thought at all


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## Inalra

Thanks for that baldilocks- I thought that might be the case. I have been a regular visitor to the forum whilst we have been researching our move to Spain but I have never felt that I had anything useful to add or any questions that haven't already been answered. 
My husband's second cousin is having to do his B1 (I think) to complete his uni course and there are so many jobs demanding at least B1 English, I guess it's probably just a way of wading through the hundreds of job applications employers receive. Whenever we stay with relatives in Spain, all the parents of the local children want them to play with my four year old daughter because they want them to talk in English with her. It's interesting though when you watch them play how little they actually use words (English or Spanish) to communicate with each other.


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## Minnie_Goodsoup

My academy has just started 'teaching' 18 month year olds. I get the theory, the younger the better, but I really can't visualise 45 minutes a week bringing anything beneficial. People are looking for quick, easy ways to learn, without realising how difficult it is to actually learn a language (especially since the parents haven't done it themselves). I have, I would say, a high B2, possibly C1, level of Spanish (never had an official test), and it has taken me such a long time to get to this level, and I love Spanish, I'm not just doing it because I feel obligated.


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## Inalra

What does your academy do with little ones so young? Is it like a playgroup with only English being spoken around them? Do they do follow something like the EYFS curriculum? My 21 month old is mainly interested in things like play dough, finger painting etc. I would say the only good thing about 'teaching' English so young is that it could possibly foster a positive relationship with learning the language if done correctly. That said, I would still say that 18 months is at least six months too early to expect an attention span of 45 minutes. I'm guessing there must be parent involvement as well?


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## Minnie_Goodsoup

Inalra said:


> What does your academy do with little ones so young? Is it like a playgroup with only English being spoken around them? Do they do follow something like the EYFS curriculum? My 21 month old is mainly interested in things like play dough, finger painting etc. I would say the only good thing about 'teaching' English so young is that it could possibly foster a positive relationship with learning the language if done correctly. That said, I would still say that 18 months is at least six months too early to expect an attention span of 45 minutes. I'm guessing there must be parent involvement as well?


Basically, I feel like I'm just babysitting them for 45 minutes. I play puzzles with them, read to them, sing with them, try my best to get them to repeat words I say, and try to stop them from climbing on the tables. Two of them are quite quiet girls, and they do repeat things, although they look really confused about why I'm saying different words, but the other girl just cries, knocks things over etc. The parents aren't involved at all, and the receptionist (she basically created this class for her daughter) has said she is going to put more children in the class, despite me saying I can barely control the three of them as it is.


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## Inalra

Minnie_Goodsoup said:


> Basically, I feel like I'm just babysitting them for 45 minutes. I play puzzles with them, read to them, sing with them, try my best to get them to repeat words I say, and try to stop them from climbing on the tables. Two of them are quite quiet girls, and they do repeat things, although they look really confused about why I'm saying different words, but the other girl just cries, knocks things over etc. The parents aren't involved at all, and the receptionist (she basically created this class for her daughter) has said she is going to put more children in the class, despite me saying I can barely control the three of them as it is.


Oh dear I can only imagine how hard that is- I feel for you! Out of interest, which age group do you prefer teaching? How do you find the interest level of the older children? I don't know what the child to adult ratio is in Spain but I think its only about 3:1 in the UK (don't know for sure) so maybe you could go down that route.


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## baldilocks

There is a Helen Doron programme for teaching the very very young (18 mths and up). It is offered by our branch in Alcalá la Real


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## Minnie_Goodsoup

baldilocks said:


> There is a Helen Doron programme for teaching the very very young (18 mths and up). It is offered by our branch in Alcalá la Real


I think Helen Doron is where our academy got the idea from, they have given me some sheets/documents that came from their schools. Apparently they have been doing baby programmes for quite a while, right? I need to find out how they do it, because I don't have the experience and I feel a bit swamped by it. 



Inalra said:


> Oh dear I can only imagine how hard that is- I feel for you! Out of interest, which age group do you prefer teaching? How do you find the interest level of the older children? I don't know what the child to adult ratio is in Spain but I think its only about 3:1 in the UK (don't know for sure) so maybe you could go down that route.


To be totally honest, I don't really have a preferred age group to teach, if you pushed me, I might say adults, but I find the good and bad in all groups. I am biased towards adults because that's what I'm used to, I only have a couple of child groups, all the rest are over 20 years old. Babies are a special kind of challenge, though. 
The interest level of my older children (I have two groups of 11/12 year olds) is bad, but I understand that they have spent the whole day in school and then they come to an English class, and they are just tired and want to go home. I try to make it as fun for them as possible, and they are lovely children, but I get how tired they must be.


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## Inalra

The Helen Doron programmes look interesting! From what I have read, it looks like it has similar core skills and objectives to the UK EYFS. It also seems that parental participation is involved which absolutely makes sense and mum and dad can learn English too! My little ones love doing rhymes especially 'Sleeping Bunnies' and 'Wind the bobbin up'. These never fail to get all the children involved at the Children's Centres I go to. I also learnt a lot of Spanish whilst reading Spanish children's stories to my older daughter when she was small and my Spanish was pretty basic back then. One of the favourites is 'The 3 Little Pigs', I think the repetition and animal sounds in the story make it great for very young learners- it could be even better with puppets.


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## Pesky Wesky

Minnie_Goodsoup said:


> I think Helen Doron is where our academy got the idea from, they have given me some sheets/documents that came from their schools. Apparently they have been doing baby programmes for quite a while, right? I need to find out how they do it, because I don't have the experience and I feel a bit swamped by it.
> 
> 
> 
> To be totally honest, I don't really have a preferred age group to teach, if you pushed me, I might say adults, but I find the good and bad in all groups. I am biased towards adults because that's what I'm used to, I only have a couple of child groups, all the rest are over 20 years old. Babies are a special kind of challenge, though.
> The interest level of my older children (I have two groups of 11/12 year olds) is bad, but I understand that they have spent the whole day in school and then they come to an English class, and they are just tired and want to go home. I try to make it as fun for them as possible, and they are lovely children, but I get how tired they must be.


I have said before on threads here very much the same. I teach adults. I have taught children too, but mainly after school and IMO in Spain that doesn't work out well. They are tired as you say and most of the time they're there because they're not doing well in English at school so they're not very happy about it. You're not their real teacher, so you're not that important to them either. Unless you give them tests all the time they don't learn and they continually ask you "Is that going to be in the exam'" if you write anything up on the board.


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## Pesky Wesky

Minnie_Goodsoup said:


> My academy has just started 'teaching' 18 month year olds. I get the theory, the younger the better, but I really can't visualise 45 minutes a week bringing anything beneficial. People are looking for quick, easy ways to learn, without realising how difficult it is to actually learn a language (especially since the parents haven't done it themselves). I have, I would say, a high B2, possibly C1, level of Spanish (never had an official test), and it has taken me such a long time to get to this level, and I love Spanish, I'm not just doing it because I feel obligated.


Totally agree. The idea of getting them young is great, but 45 mins a week is not going to do it. They'd be better off putting on a dvd at home!  I also find that there's a total miscomprehension about learning languages from people who have never done it, which is not surprising really!


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## Inalra

Pesky Wesky said:


> I have said before on threads here very much the same. I teach adults. I have taught children too, but mainly after school and IMO in Spain that doesn't work out well. They are tired as you say and most of the time they're there because they're not doing well in English at school so they're not very happy about it. You're not their real teacher, so you're not that important to them either. Unless you give them tests all the time they don't learn and they continually ask you "Is that going to be in the exam'" if you write anything up on the board.


It's good to hear your experiences. I am interested in teaching both children and adults! It seems that most of the academies in the area I am heading off to teach a variety of learners so hopefully I will have the opportunity to teach different age groups.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Inalra said:


> It's good to hear your experiences. I am interested in teaching both children and adults! It seems that most of the academies in the area I am heading off to teach a variety of learners so hopefully I will have the opportunity to teach different age groups.


I think most academies do have a variety usually young kids after school and then getting older as the evening goes on. A typical academy timetable will be 17:00 - 21:00. I used to have classes until 22:00! Don't forget a lot of adults don't get home from work until 20:00 - 21:00. Some academies will have morning classes on premises, but the bulk is in the evenings. And of course some have in company classes which will typically be early morning @ 8:00, lunch times 13:30 - 16:00 and after work 18:00 onwards. Lots of variety possible!


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## xabiaxica

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think most academies do have a variety usually young kids after school and then getting older as the evening goes on. A typical academy timetable will be 17:00 - 21:00. I used to have classes until 22:00! Don't forget a lot of adults don't get home from work until 20:00 - 21:00. Some academies will have morning classes on premises, but the bulk is in the evenings. And of course some have in company classes which will typically be early morning @ 8:00, lunch times 13:30 - 16:00 and after work 18:00 onwards. Lots of variety possible!


when I taught English in an academy I had a couple of students, one was a dentist, at 8:30am before they started work - then usually nothing until 5pm, just like you, starting with the younger kids, then gradually older until a group of adults which started at 9pm & finished at 10:30! Thankfully that was only twice a week. Now & then a student would want a class during siesta time. 

in between I used to do my private classes (not English) - eventually my private work overtook the academy work - thankfully - because the academy went bust & closed


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## Minnie_Goodsoup

Here are my classes as of the moment to give you an idea of how weird the hours are (I will be getting more soon):

Monday: 9:15-10:45, 1:30-3:00, 5:30-7:30, 8:30-10:00
Tuesday: 10:00-11:30, 11:30-1:00, 6:00-8:00
Wednesday: 9:15-10:45, 6:00-8:00, 8:30-10:00
Thursday: 10:00-11:30, 11:30-1:00, 4:00-5:00, 5:00-6:00, 6:00-6:45, 6:45-7:45, 8:30-10:00
Friday: 8:30-10:30, 5:00-6:30

They add more hours every week to fill in gaps, what the academy wants to do is have as many classes as possible, so they find spaces in your timetable and think "yep, fits there!" Classes during siesta have started sliding in, despite the fact that the receptionists, boss and other 'manager' types do a typical 9:00-2:00, 5:00-9:00. They wouldn't dream of doing a teacher's timetable.


----------



## Inalra

Minnie_Goodsoup said:


> Here are my classes as of the moment to give you an idea of how weird the hours are (I will be getting more soon):
> 
> Monday: 9:15-10:45, 1:30-3:00, 5:30-7:30, 8:30-10:00
> Tuesday: 10:00-11:30, 11:30-1:00, 6:00-8:00
> Wednesday: 9:15-10:45, 6:00-8:00, 8:30-10:00
> Thursday: 10:00-11:30, 11:30-1:00, 4:00-5:00, 5:00-6:00, 6:00-6:45, 6:45-7:45, 8:30-10:00
> Friday: 8:30-10:30, 5:00-6:30
> 
> They add more hours every week to fill in gaps, what the academy wants to do is have as many classes as possible, so they find spaces in your timetable and think "yep, fits there!" Classes during siesta have started sliding in, despite the fact that the receptionists, boss and other 'manager' types do a typical 9:00-2:00, 5:00-9:00. They wouldn't dream of doing a teacher's timetable.


Those hours are interesting, I didn't expect you to have any lessons during the day to be honest- I thought it would all be 4pm-10pm. Do you mind if I ask if they pay you more the more hours you do or do you get a flat rate and they give you as many classes as they want? I definitely believe you about the hours that admin workers do!!


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## Cazzy

I work Tuesday to Friday 09.00 - 13.00 and 16.00 - 22.00 and Saturday 10.00 - 14.00 and so does my partner. It is too much for us!! We can't fit anymore classes in and are having to turn students away. After months of looking for a suitable premises today we got the OK from the local inspector that the building we found is suitable for an Academy.. Now it is all systems go to get it up and running for May, so that we can employ another teacher and have a little more time off.


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## Pesky Wesky

Minnie_Goodsoup said:


> Here are my classes as of the moment to give you an idea of how weird the hours are (I will be getting more soon):
> 
> Monday: 9:15-10:45, 1:30-3:00, 5:30-7:30, 8:30-10:00
> Tuesday: 10:00-11:30, 11:30-1:00, 6:00-8:00
> Wednesday: 9:15-10:45, 6:00-8:00, 8:30-10:00
> Thursday: 10:00-11:30, 11:30-1:00, 4:00-5:00, 5:00-6:00, 6:00-6:45, 6:45-7:45, 8:30-10:00
> Friday: 8:30-10:30, 5:00-6:30
> 
> They add more hours every week to fill in gaps, what the academy wants to do is have as many classes as possible, so they find spaces in your timetable and think "yep, fits there!" Classes during siesta have started sliding in, despite the fact that the receptionists, boss and other 'manager' types do a typical 9:00-2:00, 5:00-9:00. They wouldn't dream of doing a teacher's timetable.


Those hours are a nightmare!
Hope you've got some double preps in there 'cos if not you're heading for a breakdown!!


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## 213979

Minnie_Goodsoup said:


> Here are my classes as of the moment to give you an idea of how weird the hours are (I will be getting more soon):
> 
> Monday: 9:15-10:45, 1:30-3:00, 5:30-7:30, 8:30-10:00
> Tuesday: 10:00-11:30, 11:30-1:00, 6:00-8:00
> Wednesday: 9:15-10:45, 6:00-8:00, 8:30-10:00
> Thursday: 10:00-11:30, 11:30-1:00, 4:00-5:00, 5:00-6:00, 6:00-6:45, 6:45-7:45, 8:30-10:00
> Friday: 8:30-10:30, 5:00-6:30
> 
> They add more hours every week to fill in gaps, what the academy wants to do is have as many classes as possible, so they find spaces in your timetable and think "yep, fits there!" Classes during siesta have started sliding in, despite the fact that the receptionists, boss and other 'manager' types do a typical 9:00-2:00, 5:00-9:00. They wouldn't dream of doing a teacher's timetable.


This sounds familiar. Here's to coffee!!


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## kalohi

Minnie_Goodsoup said:


> Here are my classes as of the moment to give you an idea of how weird the hours are (I will be getting more soon):
> 
> Monday: 9:15-10:45, 1:30-3:00, 5:30-7:30, 8:30-10:00
> Tuesday: 10:00-11:30, 11:30-1:00, 6:00-8:00
> Wednesday: 9:15-10:45, 6:00-8:00, 8:30-10:00
> Thursday: 10:00-11:30, 11:30-1:00, 4:00-5:00, 5:00-6:00, 6:00-6:45, 6:45-7:45, 8:30-10:00
> Friday: 8:30-10:30, 5:00-6:30
> 
> They add more hours every week to fill in gaps, what the academy wants to do is have as many classes as possible, so they find spaces in your timetable and think "yep, fits there!" Classes during siesta have started sliding in, despite the fact that the receptionists, boss and other 'manager' types do a typical 9:00-2:00, 5:00-9:00. They wouldn't dream of doing a teacher's timetable.


OMG, I could never work that timetable. When are you supposed to do your class preps and correcting? And how about finding time to read up on different teaching techniques or ways to incorporate new technologies? With that timetable I'd be burnt out in a month! I work 4-10, Mon-Thur. In other years I've also had a morning class 9:30-11:00. 

My academy's students are almost all kids (from age 3), with a few classes of university aged kids and a stray adult. I LOVE the very young learners (nursery aged) and the older primaries. I've never taught babies. I can't much see the point!


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## Pesky Wesky

kalohi said:


> OMG, I could never work that timetable. When are you supposed to do your class preps and correcting? And how about finding time to read up on different teaching techniques or ways to incorporate new technologies?
> Or finding time for living?!
> With that timetable I'd be burnt out in a month! I work 4-10, Mon-Thur. In other years I've also had a morning class 9:30-11:00.
> 
> My academy's students are almost all kids (from age 3), with a few classes of university aged kids and a stray adult. I LOVE the very young learners (nursery aged) and the older primaries. I've never taught babies. I can't much see the point!
> Here we have a few schools called Bebin which go from babies to secondary. I can see the point if it's a bilingual education centre set up, but not an academy with a "class" once/ twice a week


***


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## kalohi

Pesky Wesky said:


> I can see the point if it's a bilingual education centre set up, but not an academy with a "class" once/ twice a week


Yes, this is what I meant.


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## ZFord

Inalra said:


> Hi Zoe,
> 
> I am hopefully relocating to the Jerez area late summer with my half-Spanish husband and I would be interested in the job you mention. I have a TEFL qualification and I am currently working on a Young Learner Specialist certificate. I don't want to put my email address on here, is there anyway I can contact you privately? Thanks!


Hi Inalra,

I think the only way to talk privatly is via Facebook because I dont want to put my contact details on here either. Add me as a friend and we'll talk that way. 

Just to give you more info in my situation......I work Monday to Friday 4pm - 9.30pm and we will soon be starting morning classes. My infant classes are more like a play group but in English and the children really enjoy it. I think I may be really lucky at the accademy where I am, we all help each other and with regards to having time to prep, I found that once I was in the routine of doing it and knew where to look and who to ask, it became kuch easier.

Hope to speak to you soon
Zoe


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## Minnie_Goodsoup

kalohi said:


> OMG, I could never work that timetable. When are you supposed to do your class preps and correcting? And how about finding time to read up on different teaching techniques or ways to incorporate new technologies? With that timetable I'd be burnt out in a month! I work 4-10, Mon-Thur. In other years I've also had a morning class 9:30-11:00.
> 
> My academy's students are almost all kids (from age 3), with a few classes of university aged kids and a stray adult. I LOVE the very young learners (nursery aged) and the older primaries. I've never taught babies. I can't much see the point!


Correcting I do in class while they are speaking, or during my 45 minutes of formación per week 

Class preps? Virtually non-existent, the academy intentionally creates a really strict curriculum ´this book, these pages, this day´ to keep preparation time down and thus fit in more classes. I go off the curriculum a lot, particularly to do more exam practice which is what the students want more than anything, but if I want to do preparation it´ll be late at night or weekends. 

Different techniques or technology? Lol, they haven´t got an interest in that. 

In fact, I´ve just been told as a new intensive class is starting for the exams in June/July, that will be 6 more hours added onto my work week, plus two more hours of classes particulares.


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## xabiaxica

Minnie_Goodsoup said:


> Correcting I do in class while they are speaking, or during my 45 minutes of formación per week
> 
> Class preps? Virtually non-existent, the academy intentionally creates a really strict curriculum ´this book, these pages, this day´ to keep preparation time down and thus fit in more classes. I go off the curriculum a lot, particularly to do more exam practice which is what the students want more than anything, but if I want to do preparation it´ll be late at night or weekends.
> 
> Different techniques or technology? Lol, they haven´t got an interest in that.
> 
> In fact, I´ve just been told as a new intensive class is starting for the exams in June/July, that will be 6 more hours added onto my work week, plus two more hours of classes particulares.


I hope you are paid by the hour then!!


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## Inalra

Minnie_Goodsoup said:


> Correcting I do in class while they are speaking, or during my 45 minutes of formación per week
> 
> Class preps? Virtually non-existent, the academy intentionally creates a really strict curriculum ´this book, these pages, this day´ to keep preparation time down and thus fit in more classes. I go off the curriculum a lot, particularly to do more exam practice which is what the students want more than anything, but if I want to do preparation it´ll be late at night or weekends.
> 
> Different techniques or technology? Lol, they haven´t got an interest in that.
> 
> In fact, I´ve just been told as a new intensive class is starting for the exams in June/July, that will be 6 more hours added onto my work week, plus two more hours of classes particulares.


I think a fair few academies may work similarly! So you don't have to prepare any lesson plans or find any of your own resources? It's such a shame that some academies only seem to see pound signs


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## Pesky Wesky

> Minnie_Goodsoup said:
> 
> 
> 
> Different techniques or technology? Lol, they haven´t got an interest in that.
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously they haven't, but I would hope that at least some of the teachers would have.
> Anyway you say somewhere that you're not in this for the long haul so I guess it's make hay while the sun shines.
> If not, and you really are interested in teaching, I would seriously advise you to look elsewhere as, even though I preach that any experience is useful, there are plenty of good places out there where you'd gain more valuable experience.
Click to expand...


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## kalohi

Minnie_Goodsoup said:


> Correcting I do in class while they are speaking, or during my 45 minutes of formación per week
> 
> Class preps? Virtually non-existent, the academy intentionally creates a really strict curriculum ´this book, these pages, this day´ to keep preparation time down and thus fit in more classes. I go off the curriculum a lot, particularly to do more exam practice which is what the students want more than anything, but if I want to do preparation it´ll be late at night or weekends.
> 
> Different techniques or technology? Lol, they haven´t got an interest in that.
> 
> In fact, I´ve just been told as a new intensive class is starting for the exams in June/July, that will be 6 more hours added onto my work week, plus two more hours of classes particulares.


Wow, just wow. It's so different from where I work. We are encouraged - no, advised - to use the book only as a guide and to be as creative as possible at designing interesting and fun lessons. It's what makes the job enjoyable! Every classroom has an interactive white board, netbooks and WiFi, and we are expected to use them. It's so motivating for the kids because they love using the new technologies. We get two hours a week of teacher training and development (Friday mornings) and very often the sessions are dedicated to how to use computers and interactive white boards in class.

Isn't your job covered by a collective workers' agreement (a convenio)? Ours wouldn't allow me to work so many hours, at least without getting paid massive overtime - and of course the academy doesn't want to pay that so it doesn't happen. Full time is defined as 25 contact hours.

I really hope you're getting tons of money for all the work you're doing!


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## Inalra

kalohi said:


> Wow, just wow. It's so different from where I work. We are encouraged - no, advised - to use the book only as a guide and to be as
> Isn't your job covered by a collective workers' agreement (a convenio)? Ours wouldn't allow me to work so many hours, at least without getting paid massive overtime - and of course the academy doesn't want to pay that so it doesn't happen. Full time is defined as 25 contact hours.
> 
> I really hope you're getting tons of money for all the work you're doing!


That is so much more reassuring!! I would much prefer to have a little bit more responsibility. Like you say, that's what makes the job fun and in turn more enjoyable for your students.


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## Minnie_Goodsoup

Pesky Wesky said:


> Obviously they haven't, but I would hope that at least some of the teachers would have.
> Anyway you say somewhere that you're not in this for the long haul so I guess it's make hay while the sun shines.
> If not, and you really are interested in teaching, I would seriously advise you to look elsewhere as, even though I preach that any experience is useful, there are plenty of good places out there where you'd gain more valuable experience.
> 
> 
> 
> I am interested in teaching, I mean, I don't plan on staying at this academy for the long haul. I study teaching, techniques etc outside of class, as I really don't have the time to breathe at work. However, I figured that teaching, like every other industry, placed a lot of value on experience - so I thought if I had more experience then I would be able to find a job in a better academy eventually. From what I've heard here, the teachers tell me most of the academies are the same as the one I'm in.
> 
> And, no, I'm not particularly paid well, but since my rent is so cheap, I don't struggle.
Click to expand...


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## MaxJ

I have been reading the posts in this thread for a while with great interest and would like to benefit from the experience of some of the people here. Naturally, I will also contribute in any way I can. 

I have owned a home in Spain (Comunidad de Madrid) for the last 10 years (it is the only home I own anywhere in the world!) and I am close to taking the decision to occupy it permanently and do some work in TESOL. I have worked in a number of fields during my life and, at age 52, I am doing a PGCE in UK (teaching modern foreign languages - as the discipline is known in the national curriculum here) and, all being well, I will qualify in June 2014. The likelihood of finding suitable employment in the UK is not very high.

Depending on how things progress, I am contemplating doing a CELTA in Madrid later this year. I would then look for part-time employment. I want to keep things simple and legal which means that I am looking at working in an institution which is already established but would also be prepared to give lessons in other people's homes.

Naturally, I am more than aware of the economic situation in Spain at present because I do visit it quite frequently. However, I am not as clued in when it comes to TESOL matters. From what I can tell, Pesky_Wesky is the person best qualified to advise me!

- How can I prepare and train myself to give me the best chance of success? (What is the best qualification for Madrid?
- Where would I be best advised to look for work given that, at the outset, I will not have any experience of teaching in this field. I do not need to start earning any particular sum of money right away and so I would be prepared to consider many options. The most important thing for me would be that the people I teach really want to learn!

Thanks for this forum which is so interesting to read!

Max


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## Pesky Wesky

MaxJ said:


> I have been reading the posts in this thread for a while with great interest and would like to benefit from the experience of some of the people here. Naturally, I will also contribute in any way I can.
> 
> I have owned a home in Spain (Comunidad de Madrid) for the last 10 years (it is the only home I own anywhere in the world!) and I am close to taking the decision to occupy it permanently and do some work in TESOL. I have worked in a number of fields during my life and, at age 52, I am doing a PGCE in UK (teaching modern foreign languages - as the discipline is known in the national curriculum here) and, all being well, I will qualify in June 2014. The likelihood of finding suitable employment in the UK is not very high.
> 
> Depending on how things progress, I am contemplating doing a CELTA in Madrid later this year. I would then look for part-time employment. I want to keep things simple and legal which means that I am looking at working in an institution which is already established but would also be prepared to give lessons in other people's homes.
> 
> Naturally, I am more than aware of the economic situation in Spain at present because I do visit it quite frequently. However, I am not as clued in when it comes to TESOL matters. From what I can tell, Pesky_Wesky is the person best qualified to advise me!
> 
> - How can I prepare and train myself to give me the best chance of success? (What is the best qualification for Madrid?
> - Where would I be best advised to look for work given that, at the outset, I will not have any experience of teaching in this field. I do not need to start earning any particular sum of money right away and so I would be prepared to consider many options. The most important thing for me would be that the people I teach really want to learn!
> 
> Thanks for this forum which is so interesting to read!
> 
> Max


How interesting - a property in Madrid for over 10 years! Not the usual way of approaching the I wanna live in Spain thing!
I have just come back from a trip to Lerma, Burgos which means I've followed the mountains of La Pedriza, topped with a little snow, went past the castle of Manzanares el Real and up over Somosierra. Love that journey . Perhaps you know those places too...
As far as teaching goes you are lucky to have a large group of experienced teachers here on the forum who can give a very wide range of firsthand experience, but let's see what I can tell you
- How can I prepare and train myself to give me the best chance of success? (What is the best qualification for Madrid?
Madrid obviously has a bit of everything, academies, freelancing, adults, children, schools etc. Where you won't be able to get a job as a teacher will be in state schools. You need to speak Spanish and do a public exam.
If you come with a PGCE (but in Modern Languages - which languages??) and a CELTA you'll be very well qualified, but of course you would lack experience, and many good schools ask for experience. On the other hand you will have good qualifications and your age and non teaching experience may actually be an asset depending on the school, so ...
If you do the CELTA, make sure it is the CELTA and not just something that is advertised as a TEFL course. You need to look at Hyland, International House and British Language Centre all in Madrid
- Where would I be best advised to look for work given that, at the outset, I will not have any experience of teaching in this field. I do not need to start earning any particular sum of money right away and so I would be prepared to consider many options. The most important thing for me would be that the people I teach really want to learn!
Adults or children or both?
Children - International schools/ British schools
Here are some links
Welcome to Nabss | Nabss

MumAbroad Spain | International Schools | Spain for Kids | Expat Mums in Spain | Living with Children in Spain

Council of British International Schools (COBIS): COBIS School Search
Pay and hours may be better than in an academy.
Academies - many rely on children for their basic revenue, but those classes tend to be not very well paid. Also, as you say you want to teach people who really want to learn, well children in academies can be difficult. They go after school = they are tired. You're not their "real" teacher = possible discipline problems. Much of academy work is pushing them through Cambridge/ Trinity exams. There is an absolute obsession with KET PET, First Cert and all the rest right now.
Adults - In academies, but it's difficult in many academies to do only adults, so that needs to be checked. However I think the best way for a new teacher to start out is in an academy where you have other teachers and hopefully resources and material, some training and a director of studies to guide you. And, hopefully as well you have a guaranteed salary coming in each month.
Self employed - Can be expensive as you have to shell out social security every month at a set rate although newbies have a discount atm. It's also IMHO not a good idea until you have a couple of years experience and you have more contacts in the area.
Company classes - more lucrative in general, but usually given to teachers with a couple of years experience. However, due to your age and background maybe you'd be the ideal candidate. You'd probably get your first company classes through an academy.
Enough from me. Let's see if others chip in!
"Private" classes


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## MaxJ

Thank you for your detailed response Pesky. I really appreciate it. It is amazing to hear of the journey you have just made. My flat is less than 200 metres from the castillo in Manzanares el Real!! When I am in Spain I spend as much time as I can in La Pedriza which is heaven as far as I am concerned. I am an avid hiker and want to do much more of that in the years ahead.

You ask about why I would have a place here for 10 years and not be living in it. I have spent most of my life moving around, working and living in many different places. In 2003, I realised that I needed to have a base and it was not immediately obvious where that should be. I was born in South America, brought up there and in the Caribbean, went to university in the UK, then worked in France, Switzerland, the Caribbean, then Russia, Argentina and various places in the 3rd world. Through my contacts in Argentina, I became very friendly with people in Spain who are now close friends. I did not want to contemplate spending the rest of my life in the UK and eventually settled on Spain and fell in love with Manzanares el Real when I first visited it in July 2003! I saw only the shell of what I was to own because it was being built at the time.

Turning to my professional and current studies, I speak and teach French, Russian and Spanish (I am getting my PGCE practice by teaching those 3 languages). I have in the past had periods of residence in French-speaking countries and I lived and worked in Russia for 16 years (having studied French and Russian at university).

My plan would certainly be to do the CELTA course at International House in Madrid.

I feel very strongly drawn to teaching and I am hoping that my varied exposure to business, commerce and Govt service will stand me in good stead when it comes to teaching adults or motivated teenagers who want to know something about business English.

I have just discovered another thread started by you in 2009 and I am reading through it. I realise that some things will have changed because the crisis has bitten harder than anyone ever thought possible but I imagine there is still a lot of relevant stuff there.

I certainly look forward to the contributions of others.

Thanks for taking the time to write.

Max


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## Pesky Wesky

MaxJ said:


> Thank you for your detailed response Pesky. I really appreciate it. It is amazing to hear of the journey you have just made. My flat is less than 200 metres from the castillo in Manzanares el Real!! When I am in Spain I spend as much time as I can in La Pedriza which is heaven as far as I am concerned. I am an avid hiker and want to do much more of that in the years ahead.


No kidding!!

Well Manzanares was looking good today. The reservoir was full to the brim. In fact I've never seen it with so much water.
OH and I were talking about going for a tramp up there again this Easter, but you know what Easter is like, it can snow/ rain/ or be lovely and bright so we'll just have to see how it turns out. Last time we went (last year some time) we got burnt to a crisp after a 5 hour trek!


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## bartman

*ESL Work in Spain*

Hi Everyone

This is my first mail so hello to all the friendly people.

I was hoping for some positive advice about ESL work in Spain. I have been working as an ESL teacher in China for the last 4 years, I have an online TESOL plus as I said 4 years experience but no degree. I have only qualifications in my previous career. My wife and I are planning a move to Spain for September this year where we will try our hardest to settle in Spain. We are intending to target Madrid as a starting place unless I can find work in advance of arriving, in which case we will go where the work takes us.

The advice I'm looking for is:- will I be able to find work based on my experience, will not having a degree or CELTA be overlooked? I have a lot of experience working with children and I would be happy to continue in this area. So is a CELTA or degree always required even when working with children? Secondly, if I was to sign up for a part time CELTA course would this be sufficient for a school, even though I have not finished it?

I hope you guys can be positive this is something my wife and I have been planning and dreaming of for a long time now. I am hoping that you will confirm that my 4 years experience will be considered a big plus and allow us to at least get started and begin a new life there.

Oh, I am a British national so the visa side is okay.

Thanks


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## xabiaxica

bartman said:


> Hi Everyone
> 
> This is my first mail so hello to all the friendly people.
> 
> I was hoping for some positive advice about ESL work in Spain. I have been working as an ESL teacher in China for the last 4 years, I have an online TESOL plus as I said 4 years experience but no degree. I have only qualifications in my previous career. My wife and I are planning a move to Spain for September this year where we will try our hardest to settle in Spain. We are intending to target Madrid as a starting place unless I can find work in advance of arriving, in which case we will go where the work takes us.
> 
> The advice I'm looking for is:- will I be able to find work based on my experience, will not having a degree or CELTA be overlooked? I have a lot of experience working with children and I would be happy to continue in this area. So is a CELTA or degree always required even when working with children? Secondly, if I was to sign up for a part time CELTA course would this be sufficient for a school, even though I have not finished it?
> 
> I hope you guys can be positive this is something my wife and I have been planning and dreaming of for a long time now. I am hoping that you will confirm that my 4 years experience will be considered a big plus and allow us to at least get started and begin a new life there.
> 
> Oh, I am a British national so the visa side is okay.
> 
> Thanks


:welcome:

I've tagged your post onto the end of a discussion we're having atm about this very topic - settle down for a read - I'm sure you'll find it interesting


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## Pesky Wesky

MaxJ said:


> Thank you for your detailed response Pesky. I really appreciate it. It is amazing to hear of the journey you have just made. My flat is less than 200 metres from the castillo in Manzanares el Real!! When I am in Spain I spend as much time as I can in La Pedriza which is heaven as far as I am concerned. I am an avid hiker and want to do much more of that in the years ahead.
> 
> You ask about why I would have a place here for 10 years and not be living in it. I have spent most of my life moving around, working and living in many different places. In 2003, I realised that I needed to have a base and it was not immediately obvious where that should be. I was born in South America, brought up there and in the Caribbean, went to university in the UK, then worked in France, Switzerland, the Caribbean, then Russia, Argentina and various places in the 3rd world.
> 
> Max


Not very interesting I'm sure, but we spent the morning tramping around La Pedriza up by El Yelmo. This time 4.5 hours instead of five  We park by the old cafés at the entrance to the park, not the official car park, so that makes it a little longer and then we have a drink when we finish and my goodness were we ready for it! The going up was stiff, but manageable, but the going down was rough on the old legs. Still, it was glorious up there with those stunning rock formations, snow topped mountains in the distance and Kala the dog was in heaven sniffing and running around! 
Happy days


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## MaxJ

*Manzanares el Real*



Pesky Wesky said:


> Not very interesting I'm sure, but we spent the morning tramping around La Pedriza up by El Yelmo. This time 4.5 hours instead of five  We park by the old cafés at the entrance to the park, not the official car park, so that makes it a little longer and then we have a drink when we finish and my goodness were we ready for it! The going up was stiff, but manageable, but the going down was rough on the old legs. Still, it was glorious up there with those stunning rock formations, snow topped mountains in the distance and Kala the dog was in heaven sniffing and running around!
> Happy days


Dear Pesky

Very interested to hear of your escapade. I know the car park you speak of...of course. Although I have tramped over large parts of La Pedriza, I have never been up El Yelmo. Of course it peers right down on the terrace (ático) of my flat and it is the first thing that one sees when you emerge from the lower part of the flat onto to the terrace. I will go up it one day but my preference has often been to be near the river or the forests. I often walk from the centre of Manzanares up Avenida de la Pedriza and into the park from the side entrance and continue up past the car parks at Canto Cochino and up towards Cabeza de Hierro. I find that a glorious walk!

Still reading about EFL teaching and will certainly come back to you with a few questions, if you don't mind?

Kindest regards,

Max


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