# Alot of negativity from xpats but what about life in the uk ?



## taximania (Sep 17, 2010)

Hi All ,
I read the forum most days and have followed many of them , overall i think the posters are generally quite negative towards people who are thinking of moving to spain and the general advice is 'dont do it' 
I have no doubt that the forum is very usefull and the first hand knowledge of the members is fantastic and very informative but i do wonder if they realise what life in the UK is really like .
I live in a sleepy area of Devon , crime is low in the immediate area and the majority have a job.
There are 6 children in my immediate family , all have gone to uni , 3 have no jobs and 3 have menial labouring jobs , opportunites are few and far between.
Virtually everyone i know is living from day to day (money wise) , all are mortgaged to the hilt and i have no doubt that if interest mate return to the long term average of 5% at least 60% of my friends would be unable to pay their mortgages.
The weather is dreadfull , its cold and dark all day at 5 oclock the country retreats indoors and spends all the evening watching the box in the corner of the room.
If you venture into Torquay you will find streets full of agresive youths , all wearing hoodies and knife attacks are common place , a friend of mine was attacked and killed in Torquay for looking at one of these people.
The whole system is based on benefits , virtually everyone is claiming some sort of benefit ...especially family credit and working tax credit ...whilst this helps people to survive it kills enterprise and takes away the drive and energy that the country needs to survive.
The country in general is bankrupt ....the huge deficit is unmanageable and the national debt is well over a trillion pounds ....hence the performance of the gbp which cant even rally against a currency that probably wont even survive (euro).
The government knows that it can not let this continue but its only plan to restore the finances is to tax the tax payer ... the latest plan is to introduce local tax's on top of the allready ott general tax's.
Our energy bills are rising at 10-20 % per annum , our council tax is marginally under £2k per annum , fuel is £1.30 per litre and rising on a weekly basis , the main shopping centers are full of charity shops and the population wanders the streets wrapped in scarfs and jackets because its *** freezing , the streets are full of people begging and you just have to feel for them !
The days of young people aspiring to buy a house are long gone ...how can a youngster commit to a house at 160k minimum and a no morgages on offer ...this will change the whole mindset of the nation , the older people with mortgages have learnt to survive by using the equity in their houses to borrow additional money and the profits from their house purchase makes this acceptable ...this is an option that is not available to the new generation.
The uni option has just become more difficult as 3 years is uni is now going to cost them 30k before living costs , the alternative will be low paid shop work at best ...i worry for this new generation.
The country no longer really produces anything , industties that drove growth have long since dissapeared , we dont build ships or cars anymore , we dont invest in tech and will fall further and further behind the Asian economies.
So far the uk housing market has held up , we havent had the 50% fall in prices that spain has encountered , this has saved mr and mrs average ....they still feel that they have some hope and some cash due to the equity in their houses .....this will not be a luxury afforded to the new generation.
We still have a couple of good things , the health service is better than generally reported and the supermarkets are good (lol) .
So its a financially challenged enviroment , little in the way of employment prospects , dull uninspiring weather , streets that are not safe to walk and an apathy that is understandable .

Spain , ok the employment market is dreadfull and the housing market has taken a hit ...but its just possible that spain has seen the worst , you have the weather and you have the more inspiring lifestyle (even if that only a glass of wine on a pleasant evening).

Its possible that the housing market is touching the bottom , if the eurozone starts to rebound its possible that the spanish property market will begin to look attractive again , there is in my opinion an opportunity that will soon present itself and i still intend to move.

thoughts appreciated !


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2011)

I´m positive, it´s great here.. I think everyone should be flocking over with their pockets & bank accounts stuffed full of cash. It´s exactly what this place needs so ignore the negativity and do it!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

taximania said:


> Hi All ,
> I read the forum most days and have followed many of them , overall i think the posters are generally quite negative towards people who are thinking of moving to spain and the general advice is 'dont do it'
> I have no doubt that the forum is very usefull and the first hand knowledge of the members is fantastic and very informative but i do wonder if they realise what life in the UK is really like .
> I live in a sleepy area of Devon , crime is low in the immediate area and the majority have a job.
> ...


Well obviously we like it here or we wouldnt all be here and I know what you're saying about the UK. But I guess alot of us have seen the pitfalls and how life is here for not only expats but for the Spanish too. I'm only able to afford to live here because my husband commutes to the UK to work and its not easy or cheap, financially we'd be sooooo much better off in the UK!

A couple of points:

The weather here has been diabolical since December, wind, torrential rain and cold - ok not as cold as the uk, but nonetheless with no damp courses in the houses, not much in the way of central heating and high electricity prices, its not easy to get warm. And its not likely to get much better before mid to late March - the beginning of April

Unless you've paid into the Spanish social security system for a minimum of three months, there is no dole money, no child allowance, no housing allowance, family credit, health care, no financial assistance at all - none. You are on your own! And the cost of living here is pretty much on a par with the UK

Unless you speak and can write fluent Spanish you stand almost no chance of getting a decent job. 

I know we sound negative, but I hate to see people with families, homes and work, throwing it all away, because the chances are that within a year they'll have to go back to the UK and they wont have their home there anymore, they wont have their jobs and they'll have to rebuild that all back up again - how devastating and sole destroying must that be - and all for a glass of wine on a pleasant evening.

That said, I always advise people to come over and do their homework, take a look at what work is available long term to sustain them, ask other expats how they are managing and to really investigate properly,. Apply for jobs in Spain on line and come over for interviews.... Afterall, if you were to move within the UK you wouldnt unless you were sure you knew where and what you were moving to. It sometimes seems to me that on the strength of a few holidays here, people think it must be great. 

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

ShinyAndy said:


> I´m positive, it´s great here.. I think everyone should be flocking over with their pockets & bank accounts stuffed full of cash. It´s exactly what this place needs so ignore the negativity and do it!


So, this is the advice you give those who have


> pockets & bank accounts stuffed full of cash


. I wonder how many of those there are...

Is this universal advice applicable to all cases??

And to Mr. Ordinary who has a couple of o levels, 2 kids, a wife who is a qualified hairdresser/ beautician/ nurse/ administrative worker neither of whom speak Spanish, would you say the same? They have little money to plough into Spain

To a 22 year old with no qualifications, no money, who looking to tranfer his JSA?? No money for Spain

And to someone who is an accountant/ lawyer/ policeman/ shopkeeper/ bar owner???Money, but no transferable skills.

I understand taximania. I know the UK is not a pleasant place for many and every time I visit I'm gald I don't live there. 
Personally, if it was just me, as it was when I first left the UK, I'd go for it. If I had a family I probably wouldn't come to Spain.

Ps I might as well say it 'cos it's going to come up sooner or later. The new unemployment figures are the worst ever. 4.6 million unemployed.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Just another point. It would be foolish and unfair of us to give false hope to would-be expats and tell them that it is easy. The forum is here to tell people how it is and when the good times come again, we'll be telling everyone to come on over!

Jo xxx


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

taximania very interesting and well raised concerns. However at the end of the day each case depends on your circumstances in the UK and your potential to carve out a life for yourself in Spain.

The people who receive strong warnings on this foro are those who by their very input/questions make it clear that they are ill prepared for the move.

Even if you believe the economy of spain is no worse than the UK your ability to safeguard you family if you speak no spanish and have no particular skills and limited financial backing must be less.

Often these moves seem to be an act of desperation. These people merit sympathy and possibly more. But to advise them to up sticks and choose a destination based on weather and quality of beach seems not to be very helpful and potentially disastrous.

People with means, retiring with their economy secure, or those with a clear extraction plan if all goes well I think if you look at the posts over time get a very clear green light.

Finally I would suggest it is vital that the advise on this forum is on the side of caution. Potential spainbound people will not base their decision on information here but for those about to make an enormous error they might just start asking the right sort of questions


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Negative, who, not on this forum surely?

Do what I did, sell up and retire to the sunny Canary Islands

Hepa


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Hepa said:


> Negative, who, not on this forum surely?
> 
> Do what I did, sell up and retire to the sunny Canary Islands
> 
> Hepa



Thats exactly right! If you can afford to sell up and retire then Spain and its Islands is a great place to be! 

As Nigel pointed out, the negativity is generally directed at those who need to do a little homework and fact finding before making a rather too risky leap of faith

Jo xxx


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Hepa said:


> Negative, who, not on this forum surely?
> 
> Do what I did, sell up and retire to the sunny Canary Islands
> 
> Hepa


Hepa not only do you live way off course but you are also way way off topic 

CORRECTION: In my previous post it should say you need the extraction plan if all goes pear shaped  Of course a good plan if all goes wrong is to turn up on Hepa's doorstep


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Hepa said:


> Negative, who, not on this forum surely?
> 
> Do what I did, sell up and retire to the sunny Canary Islands
> 
> Hepa


Oh Hepa, be fair.
As has been pointed out before, you HAD smth to sell up. A lot of people don't.
YOU retired. A lot of people aren't retiring age


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

nigele2 said:


> taximania very interesting and well raised concerns. However at the end of the day each case depends on your circumstances in the UK and your potential to carve out a life for yourself in Spain.
> ...
> The people who receive strong warnings on this foro are those who by their very input/questions make it clear that they are ill prepared for the move.
> ...
> People with means, retiring with their economy secure, or those with a clear extraction plan if all goes well I think if you look at the posts over time get a very clear green light.


Yes!


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## taximania (Sep 17, 2010)

I would consider my self amongst the 'be warned ' , around 300k in cash , no spanish , a son that needs educating for the next two years and a sucurish business in the uk . My prospects in spain employment wise would be pretty poor , i could decide to invest in a business but i would be wary of that.
I dont see much in the way of a future for my lad in the uk and could quite possibly be running away from this lifestyle in the hope of a better life in spain.
I'm pretty sensible , not easily fooled but so fed up with the uk and i think its the next in line for trouble ...despite all the talk of recession i dont think we have even gone more than 10% of the way yet .
I see disaster round the corner and i wouldnt be at all surprised to se the uk property market fall 30% or so within 2 years so i am considering cashing in now .
I think spain will come back , a decent villa in a decent area could appreciate significantly over the next few years .
yes uk residents get good support from the state but if you spend your life looking to the state for support you wont get very far .
The overall (it seems) negativity is a worry and those comments about the weather are worse lol , i thought ten degrees was about the average ?
its 1 degree and freezing here today ..and the phones not ringing because no one has any money !


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

taximania said:


> I would consider my self amongst the 'be warned ' , around 300k in cash , no spanish , a son that needs educating for the next two years and a sucurish business in the uk . My prospects in spain employment wise would be pretty poor , i could decide to invest in a business but i would be wary of that.
> I dont see much in the way of a future for my lad in the uk and could quite possibly be running away from this lifestyle in the hope of a better life in spain.
> I'm pretty sensible , not easily fooled but so fed up with the uk and i think its the next in line for trouble ...despite all the talk of recession i dont think we have even gone more than 10% of the way yet .
> I see disaster round the corner and i wouldnt be at all surprised to se the uk property market fall 30% or so within 2 years so i am considering cashing in now .
> ...


We're in the opposite situation, my son is just coming up for his GCSEs and we're possibly going to send him back to the UK cos the cost of international schooling here is high , he would get free education in the UK so could do A-levels and there is no work here for him - nor any financial support. I'm not someone who believes in "the benefit system" as it is, but its so reassuring to know that they are there. What on earth does one do with a 16yo lad who speaks basic spanish and cant get work here??? He'd end up either hanging around with the gangs of other unemployed youths here or turn to crime as many do - its really not much different in Spain you know, its just less overt here! 

The financial situation in Spain is soo much worse than the UK, its just the Spanish dont bang on about it as much! 

Half the trouble is that it seems to be the national sport to evade paying tax. Our letting agent insists we pay our rent in cash - eventho they are a registered business. I went to a "proper" garage this morning to have my car repaired and they asked me if I wanted a factura (receipt) because if I did they'd have to charge me tax/IVA (VAT) - can you imagine them saying that in "kwikfit"????

Anyway, its all choices and decisions. All I ever say is not to burn your bridges and to do your homework, but ultimately, life is the same here as it is in the UK "same ****, different place! The washing dries quicker in the summer, but slower in the winter!

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

ShinyAndy said:


> I´m positive, it´s great here.. I think everyone should be flocking over with their pockets & bank accounts stuffed full of cash. It´s exactly what this place needs so ignore the negativity and do it!


I'm positive too - I'm busier than I've ever been 

& your advice is great for those who do have bank accounts & pockets full of cash - that IS what the economy here needs


but for anyone not in that position, do you really think that's great advice


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes!


agreed - brilliantly put


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I think some people ask the questions but do not like the answers that they receive from the persons on this forum.

People here may give the impression of being negative, but in reality they are telling about their experiences living and working or retiring in this country.

I first arrived in 1962, but it took a further thirty eight years of patience, hard work, mastering those infernal Spanish verbs, before I was able to start the process of moving here. 

It is not easy to emigrate, sometimes you just have to be patient and wait for a favourable opportunity to present its self.

Hepa


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I'm glad you raised this, Taximania, because when I saw a post here the other day saying something like "you think the UK is bad but Spain is a lot worse" it made me wonder - is it really?

I may be a deluded optimist but I still think Spain's economic problems are (relatively) temporary. It still has the potential to recover and play a leading role in alternative energy technology, food production and tourism - including the expanding sector of ecotourism.

The government here has made some errors of judgement but seems to be biting the bullet now. And at least we aren't privatising schools and hospitals and mortgaging the future with public finance initiatives. We aren't handing over public services like libraries and nursery schools to volunteers. Everything in the UK, from education to music, has become a commodity, its value governed by the market rather than human need or quality of life.

And amazingly, Spanish people still remain optimistic. In a recent survey by the Centre for Sociological Research 75% of those questioned said that they were very satisfied with their lives, and 55% said that things had gone well or very well for them in 2010.

I know I live in a very old-fashioned little town where people still share what they have, happily close their businesses for a three-day fiesta, and prefer the corner shop to the out-of-town supermarket. Small children play freely and safely in the square while their parents socialise. The elderly are respected and loved, not shut away in homes. Foreign immigrants (like me) are greeted with gestures of friendship, not suspicion or resentment. This may not be typical of Spain as a whole. But I wonder if there is anywhere remotely like this left in the UK?


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

nigele2 said:


> Hepa not only do you live way off course but you are also way way off topic
> 
> Don't be daft lass, I have circumnavigated the globe and the wonderful place where eventually settled, was given the zero meridian by Ptolomy another famous navigator.
> 
> ...


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## fourgotospain (May 4, 2009)

Jo - the benefits system can only support someone who works it. £60 a week will not pay rent, electric, gas, food etc. You need all the other allowances - child benefit, disability, pet care (I kid you not) etc to make it pay. Mr and Mrs average WILL lose their house, car, h/p sofa etc if made redundant in the UK, just as they will in Spain, as the state does not simply say - "oh, you were on 30K - here's a cheque". Yes the benefits system exists, but it is not a 'catch all' situation.


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## Guest (Jan 28, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> for anyone not in that position, do you really think that's great advice


but that wasn't the advice I gave, my advice was if/when your pockets and bank account are full of cash then you should come over.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

fourgotospain said:


> Jo - the benefits system can only support someone who works it. £60 a week will not pay rent, electric, gas, food etc. You need all the other allowances - child benefit, disability, pet care (I kid you not) etc to make it pay. Mr and Mrs average WILL lose their house, car, h/p sofa etc if made redundant in the UK, just as they will in Spain, as the state does not simply say - "oh, you were on 30K - here's a cheque". Yes the benefits system exists, but it is not a 'catch all' situation.


But the UK in that situation would not see a family on the streets and homeless. Not only that, there are friends, family social services who will all play a part and of course the knowledge and understanding of how the system works. In Spain, they probably wouldnt even give you your air fare home if you hadnt paid into their system

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

To the OP I would merely reply: yes, I know what life is like in the UK and what you describe is largely correct.
But what relevance has that to how things are in Spain? I know what life is like here too.
Andy says come on over - he is full of optimism. He works hard to help people set up businesses and is successful. But he didn't mention that Marbella which is his stamping ground has experienced last year the largest percentage of self-employed people going bust in the whole of the province. I know someone who has found a job. I know many more who have lost theirs. One step forward, two steps back.
Spain has over 20% unemployment. In some areas it's over 40%. In my view it would be the height of irresponsibility to advise people with few if any skills or qualifications, no employment arranged in Spain, not much money, no Spanish and often, to be frank, poor skills in their native tongue to bring their families to places they may have visited only on holiday.
To live a good life in Spain you need either a good job secured before you come or to be retired and have a good income.
So if you are in possession of one of these, buy a ticket.
If not, stay put.
Things are bad in the UK but that doesn't imply that they will be better in Spain.
Anyway, a lot of these queries are seasonal, as I pointed out at the start of the month.
There are two main periods when there is a flood of these posts: October,( post summer holiday in the sun) and post New Year.
Understandable. I used to feel like that myself.
But I didn't take a foolish decision to relocate sans job, sans money, sans everything but avec family...
But then it's like that line in the Simon and Gasrfunkel song 'The Boxer;_ 'a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest'_


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## taximania (Sep 17, 2010)

benefits for a teenager are about £30 a week i think , a pint is £4 , 3 mile bus ride £3 , cigs £6 a pack , even a newspaper can cost you £2 these days so that £30 is a drop in the ocean.
But i wouldnt want a son of mine leaving school and claiming benefits anyway.

i think the point i was trying to make along with the fact that the uk is not looking good is that i feel there may be more of a future in spain , yes unemployment is high but i guess the other 55% are getting somewhere , uk has only 20% youth unemployed but you can bet your life theres another 30% hidden in the benefits system and then another 20% who have gone to uni without the necessary inteligence .
i think that spain has the capacity to recover whilst the uk is turning into a basket case


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

fourgotospain said:


> Jo - the benefits system can only support someone who works it. £60 a week will not pay rent, electric, gas, food etc. You need all the other allowances - child benefit, disability, pet care (I kid you not) etc to make it pay. Mr and Mrs average WILL lose their house, car, h/p sofa etc if made redundant in the UK, just as they will in Spain, as the state does not simply say - "oh, you were on 30K - here's a cheque". Yes the benefits system exists, but it is not a 'catch all' situation.


Not quite right...
You can qualify for income support, housing benefit, heating allowance, help with child care, free health care, disability allowance, carers allowance etc.etc.....as well as child benefit, working family tax credit etc.
There are over two hundred benefits one can put in a claim for. Far too many, in my opinion but that's another issue.
No-one in the UK exists on £60 a week, certainly not a family. Jobseeker's Allowance is more than that alone. The current government has rightly stipulated that a family on benefits should not receive more than £26k per annum, the average income for a working family.
Now you or I might not wish to bring up a family on £26k but people do on less, with or without the help of benefits.
As Jo often succintly points out, the state in the UK provides a safety net which is simply not there in Spain for immigrants not long off the plane.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

taximania said:


> benefits for a teenager are about £30 a week i think , a pint is £4 , 3 mile bus ride £3 , cigs £6 a pack , even a newspaper can cost you £2 these days so that £30 is a drop in the ocean.
> But i wouldnt want a son of mine leaving school and claiming benefits anyway.
> 
> i think the point i was trying to make along with the fact that the uk is not looking good is that i feel there may be more of a future in spain , yes unemployment is high but i guess the other 55% are getting somewhere , uk has only 20% youth unemployed but you can bet your life theres another 30% hidden in the benefits system and then another 20% who have gone to uni without the necessary inteligence .
> i think that spain has the capacity to recover whilst the uk is turning into a basket case



I dont want my son leaving school and claiming benefits either, besides, my lad wants to be a pilot so will go onto further education and I dont think we're eligible for the 30 pounds. BUT, I dont want my son leaving school/education and hanging around the house and putting his hand out for money from me either. If he's in the UK, my husband who has a business there will employ him as a part time cleaner/goffer, if he cant find anything else (I'm talking weekend p/t work while studying)

Some of his friends who are leaving school this coming summer (after taking their A levels are joining the army in Gibraltar, as they are recruiting. But in the main, most of them are going back to the UK to university or to jobs that they seem to have "magiced" out of thin air???? 

I'm not defending the UK, but IMO, we have the worst of two evils with Spain and the UK, but the UK at least has the language/knowledge/benefits and our family on its side and Spain at the moment is quite protective of its jobs and will nearly always favour Spanish over expats

Jo xxx


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## taximania (Sep 17, 2010)

'a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest' 
__________________

point taken .....in the depths of recesion there are always going to be opportunities for the brave , in the uk with its benefit system those without drive are less inclined to try and take those chances .maybe its not possible to exploit the opps in spain but its worth a try .


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

taximania said:


> benefits for a teenager are about £30 a week i think , a pint is £4 , 3 mile bus ride £3 , cigs £6 a pack , even a newspaper can cost you £2 these days so that £30 is a drop in the ocean.
> But i wouldnt want a son of mine leaving school and claiming benefits anyway.
> 
> i think the point i was trying to make along with the fact that the uk is not looking good is that i feel there may be more of a future in spain , yes unemployment is high but i guess the other 55% are getting somewhere , uk has only 20% youth unemployed but you can bet your life theres another 30% hidden in the benefits system and then another 20% who have gone to uni without the necessary inteligence .
> i think that spain has the capacity to recover whilst the uk is turning into a basket case



You might be interested to read an article in last week's 'Economist'. 
Spain's problem with the international bond markets is its prospects for long-term growth which are dismal. Spain lacks competitiveness. The UK does not.
Estimates for any recovery from economists and politicians vary from five to ten years.
Alcalaina is right, somewhat belatedly the Spanish Government has realised it has to implement a policy for growth which involves reform of the too-rigid labour laws which in turn means facing down the trades unions. There is potential for growth in eco-friendly industries and quality tourism.
So I would turn your last sentence on its head.
The UK currently borrows at 3.5% and lends at at least two points higher than that (e.g to Ireland), we have a thriving financial sector and there is no real threat to sterling which the Government wants to keep low as part of its recovery strategy.
Spain is constantly under threat from the bond market, has little with which to compete with other countries on the eurozone periphery such as Italy, Portugal and Greece which have similar problems and has yet to deal with the consequences of the construction boom, the misguided plan to make Spain the Florida of Europe and the encouragement of low to medium quality tourism.
I know where I'd put my money (if I had that much)


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

taximania said:


> 'a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest'
> __________________
> 
> point taken .....in the depths of recesion there are always going to be opportunities for the brave , in the uk with its benefit system those without drive are less inclined to try and take those chances .maybe its not possible to exploit the opps in spain but its worth a try .


With the greatest of respect,that last sentence of yours is contradictory
We are merely trying to point out that for the *majority* of would-be immigrants - there is no future in Spain at this point in time.
But....if you have the means to support yourself here what's the problem?
The fact that huge numbers of Brits have returned to the UK and many more want to but can't because their property has been on the market for years tells its own story.
I simply cannot imagine any responsible person moving a family to Spain at this time without a job lined up...and a good, secure one.
Most people imagine life to be the 'Spanish dream'. 
Not so. The reality is that even if you get a job in front of the four million Spaniards in the queue the chances are you will work longer hours and for less pay than in the UK.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> Spain at the moment is quite protective of its jobs and will nearly always favour Spanish over expats
> 
> Jo xxx


and rightly so. After all,people in the UK complain about immigrants taking jobs and lowering wages.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

taximania said:


> 'a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest'
> __________________
> 
> point taken .....in the depths of recesion there are always going to be opportunities for the brave , in the uk with its benefit system those without drive are less inclined to try and take those chances .maybe its not possible to exploit the opps in spain but its worth a try .


go for it!!!


and please let us all know how you get on


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Actually, I think the problem isn't between the UK or Spain. It's Europe, don't you think?

Some think that the most "developed" societies of Europe ie The UK, Spain, Italy, France, Germany(??) will never properly recover and China etc will just carry on with their conquest.

If you find this all depressing just think about the poor Italians and the joke that they've got sitting in the Presidents chair...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

taximania
point taken .....in the depths of recesion [COLOR=Blue said:


> there are always going to be opportunities for the brave [/COLOR], in the uk with its benefit system those without drive are less inclined to try and take those chances .maybe its not possible to exploit the opps in spain but its worth a try .


Of course, if you see one of the opportunities you should go for it


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## fourgotospain (May 4, 2009)

My brother exists on £60 odd a week, that is his job seekers allowance. He lives in my city house in the Uk and I don't charge him rent. He left Uni in June with a double honours maths degree and has had one part time temp xmas job since. He is entitled to no other benefits and has to pay council tax as well as he lives in a shared house and the house is charged rather than the person. The future for students and young people is bleak. Another friend with children has applied/claimed for most of the benefits you have listed - they would all be sleeping in a refuge or on the street now if his parents had not helped him out. All I'm saying is it's good in theory, c**p if you actually need it now. Of course it's no better in Spain, but then the OP is asking 'what about life in the UK?'


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## taximania (Sep 17, 2010)

I will , we can all share a glass of wine 
As for Britians financial system aka the city of London , its morally and financially bankrupt , supported by the government and the only way they can support it is to print more money ...the mistakes of the last 5 years are now being repeated because there is no other way , it will all end in tears again in the not too distant future but this time the government wont be able to step in and bail them out , that will be left to the future generations to deal with


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> go for it!!!
> 
> 
> and please let us all know how you get on


Yes..it would be really interesting to learn how many actually take the step and have a better quality of life here than they had in the UK.
My guess is....very few.
One point on the housing market: there are still a million unsold NEW homes in Spain. Prices are set to fall even further this year as the banks dump yet more properties on an already stagnant market.
Then there was the Telegraph report: tourism up in Spain...by 1%. Good news? Not at all. Tourism in the rest of Europe increased by over 5%. 
And...most tellingly: costs were slashed by 20%. 
So a cut of 20% attracted an increase of a mere 1% and that on last year's already low figures.
No business can survive if it cuts costs yet still fails to attract customers: the evidence for that exists in the bars for sale, the hotels closed for the season, the boarded-up shops and restaurants.
A race to the bottom is not a good race to be in. We saw that when we were in business in the UK. Competitors who slashed their costs in an attempt to 'kill' us could not provide the quality service and they were the ultimate losers while we survived.
Spain needs to start thinking about attracting real money...the people Andy meant when he referred to pockets stuffed with cash.
Not low-income tourists who get pissed,cause trouble and put off the more affluent. 
Not retirees struggling to survive on state pensions.
Not unskilled people with no knowledge of the language or real experience of actually living abroad.
Sounds brutal and harsh, I know, but it's the truth.


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## taximania (Sep 17, 2010)

thanks for the message Pesky , i think i replied to it


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

taximania said:


> I will , we can all share a glass of wine
> As for Britians financial system aka the city of London , its morally and financially bankrupt , supported by the government and the only way they can support it is to print more money ...the mistakes of the last 5 years are now being repeated because there is no other way , it will all end in tears again in the not too distant future but this time the government wont be able to step in and bail them out , that will be left to the future generations to deal with


All true, apart from the fact that Britain is not bankrupt and never will be.
Yes, our debt is high. But unlike the debt of Greece, Spain or Ireland it is at low interest, long-term and held mainly by British banks and other financial institutions.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'the mistakes of the past five years'. It is conveniently forgotten that right up until the global crisis the Tories supported Labour's spending plans.
The UK is still a rich and powerful nation. We are currently experiencing a major crisis. But that is the nature of capitalism and has been since the sixteenth century when Henry the Eighth introduced Quantitive Easing - the history books refer to it as 'debasing the coinage'. Boom and bust follow each other. We have survived in the past and will grow out of this current crisis. 
I strongly disagree with the Coalition's plan to cut the deficit: too deep and too soon. 
But there really is no need for the hysteria whipped up in some quarters. 
Britain is not like Greece or Spain. 
Zapatero would love to swap Spain's for Britain's problems, believe me.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Well, here's from someone who experiences both side of it, and didn't leave the UK because he was trying to get away from anything. However, I don't have to work, and there lies the rub, as they say.

Firstly I have to say at the outset that this is area based knowledge. Things may be different in different areas of the UK and Spain.

The UK is a beautiful country. I love much about it, and the diversity of the countryside is fantastic. As an early retiree I loved visiting different areas there, and miss it now. However, it's very grey for long periods and that leads sometimes to it feeling slightly depressing. I know from my daughters experiences the work situation is not great, and many are somewhat worried about the crisis measures that our esteemed new "government" are going to put in place. It's an expensive place to live right now, and it aint going to get any cheaper. Suffice it to say that if I was an average kid there now I'd be concerned for my future, but probably not sure exactly what to do about it.

Spain also is a beautiful country, but in a much different way. It can be very unforgiving if you don't know what you are doing, and of course the main thing is that you are moving into a system that you don't know much about. Whereas in the UK you have been there all your life and know the system. I've said it before ... if I had to come here to find work these days then I would not come. It's common sense. I'd be looking further afield.

I'd have to agree that what is said on forums (and I'm on a few of them) is often very off putting for people who are trying to set out on a new journey in their life. A lot of what is said is too general, and there is a lot of stuff on forums which is, to be honest, complete rubbish. But importantly it does make people aware that the grass is not greener on the other side.

Having been here for over 4 years, I still enjoy life here. Will I stay forever? I dont think so. The UK for me is still the place I'd want to spend my later years I think 

Sorry for rambling on!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> If you find this all depressing just think about the poor Italians and the joke that they've got sitting in the Presidents chair...


They seem to be rather proud of the fact that they have a seventy-year-old President who reputedly reclines on a bed and calls 'Next please!' to the women queueing up to have sex with him.....

Something I cannot imagine Winston Churchill, for all his sterling qualities, doing..


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## taximania (Sep 17, 2010)

i have no political affliations , i think tony blair finally killed those off , even i thought 'things can only get better ' might be the start of a new era but it wasnt so , it was just a continuation of what had gone before .
the mistakes of the last 5 years ie the banks trying to fashion profits out of bizzare traded instruments which inflated their profits but never actually made them any money.
When they were bailed out it was supposed to be a new start but of course without all of this skulduggary they cant really make any money .. i read somewhere that the liabilties of RBS were greater than the uk gdp lol.
Anyway thats all a bit off topic i think , it seems there is a concensus and that is , if you are working in the uk and surviving in the uk you should stay exactly where you are and 'live with it ' .........perhaps those in the know are correct , i guess i need to take a long hard look at things but my inclination is that whatever the economic problems there are always oppurtunies.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> They seem to be rather proud of the fact that they have a seventy-year-old President who reputedly reclines on a bed and calls 'Next please!' to the women queueing up to have sex with him.....


Yes they do. After all, they keep voting him in...


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

taximania said:


> i have no political affliations , i think tony blair finally killed those off , even i thought 'things can only get better ' might be the start of a new era but it wasnt so , it was just a continuation of what had gone before .
> the mistakes of the last 5 years ie the banks trying to fashion profits out of bizzare traded instruments which inflated their profits but never actually made them any money.
> When they were bailed out it was supposed to be a new start but of course without all of this skulduggary they cant really make any money .. i read somewhere that the liabilties of RBS were greater than the uk gdp lol.
> Anyway thats all a bit off topic i think , it seems there is a concensus and that is , if you are working in the uk and surviving in the uk you should stay exactly where you are and 'live with it ' .........perhaps those in the know are correct , i guess i need to take a long hard look at things but my inclination is that whatever the economic problems there are always oppurtunies.


The ones I really feel sorry for are the British ex-ex-pats who have gone back to the UK thinking it is just like when they left. One couple of my acquaintance have done that, assuming they will get all sorts of benefits (including housing) and be able to do a few odd jobs on the side. Their house in Spain, in the meantime, is sitting empty! Methinks they have a shock coming ...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

taximania said:


> i have no political affliations , i think tony blair finally killed those off , even i thought 'things can only get better ' might be the start of a new era but it wasnt so
> 
> 
> Oh yes....how I agree with you on that....


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## chanel2020 (Jan 17, 2011)

*A lot of negativity from expats*



taximania said:


> Hi All ,
> I read the forum most days and have followed many of them , overall I think the posters are generally quite negative towards people who are thinking of moving to spain and the general advice is 'dont do it'
> I have no doubt that the forum is very usefull and the first hand knowledge of the members is fantastic and very informative but i do wonder if they realise what life in the UK is really like .
> I live in a sleepy area of Devon , crime is low in the immediate area and the majority have a job.
> ...


 Taximania. I was saddened to read your report about Devon. I went to Torquey 15 years ago on my honeymoon, and was genuinly surprised to see kids 'throwing bottles at night!'. By the sound of it, it's not got any better. I can only tell you my story, and see what you think. Firstly let me say that I am in a fortunate position, where money will not be a problem when i move to the Costa Del Sol. At present we are thinking of moving to Marbella. I have visited the area for the last 9 years, and I have two young children. We normally stay for 6 weeks in the summer. I have about five families I know there already, a Spanish couple, an English/Spanish couple with children and three single people.
I live in London in a very good part but have always loved Spain. Even in this area, people are being reposssed. Strikes will certainly ensue in the coming months, and the weather does not help. ( Also, nothing changes for the people of this country politically). It's been a very cold winter. When my son gets to be 11, I will worry about him going out (fear of other children), as you probably know, we have had 28 children under 18 murdered last year. I do not feel this fear in Spain, although I'm sure some of the Spanish/English kids can be mean also! I hope to visit some schools in February, and at least go out to Spain for 6 months (I Know it's not long, but the primary school will still be there to come home to, if we wish. If we feel we can settle in we will make a more permanent move I will NOT sell my property, and certainly would NOT buy a property in Spain at the moment. It's something I have wanted to do for the last 10 years! All the lights will not be green, but I'll have a go. I have met some lovely ex-pats out in Marbella, and the've been very helpful. My English freind, married to a Spaniard, has also been very helpful. I feel anyone moving to Spain would have to be very careful. I have spoken to at least 50 expats and they have said the same thing, 'it's great if you don't have to work!' they gave the impression of jobs being far or few between, or non existent. I made enquires, have done quite a lot of homework, and can only keep my fingers crossed! Regards Chanel.


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## chanel2020 (Jan 17, 2011)

ShinyAndy said:


> I´m positive, it´s great here.. I think everyone should be flocking over with their pockets & bank accounts stuffed full of cash. It´s exactly what this place needs so ignore the negativity and do it!


Shinyandy. I like your posts you are always so positive! Chanel.


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## chanel2020 (Jan 17, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> I'm glad you raised this, Taximania, because when I saw a post here the other day saying something like "you think the UK is bad but Spain is a lot worse" it made me wonder - is it really?
> 
> I may be a deluded optimist but I still think Spain's economic problems are (relatively) temporary. It still has the potential to recover and play a leading role in alternative energy technology, food production and tourism - including the expanding sector of ecotourism.
> 
> ...



I will be moving to Spain shortly, and where you live sound idealic, I have two small children, and husband will work from home/commute to London. I know it's a cheek , but where do you live? Kind regards. Chanel.


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## taximania (Sep 17, 2010)

thanks for the replies .
Unfortunately Torquay today is not the Torquay of old , its still very pretty in the summer tho 
I believe its the drugs capital of devon these days , with a worse reputation than Plymouth !
As for my small town , you can still go out and leave your door unlocked ...day or night .
As with many places the rubbish only gets collected every two weeks (if you are lucky) and if you dont recycle correctly you are liable to prosecution , the street lights no longer come on at night and the roads are full of potholes , the pubs are slowly shutting up shop and we have gone from 16 main street shops to 8 ..the rest are either charity shops or closed down ...the local council are desperate for money so they approve just about any planning application on green field land and the local school just cant cope (but it is good)


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

chanel2020 said:


> I will be moving to Spain shortly, and where you live sound idealic, I have two small children, and husband will work from home/commute to London. I know it's a cheek , but where do you live? Kind regards. Chanel.


It's a pueblo blanco called Alcala de los Gazules in the Province of Cadiz, pop. 5000. If you click the link in my signature below, you can read more about it. You do have to be fluent in Spanish to live here, it's not in an expat zone and there are no international schools or anything like that. The main "industries" are cork and goats. I'm sure there are similar small towns all over Spain that are off the radar for tourists and expats.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

taximania said:


> thanks for the replies .
> Unfortunately Torquay today is not the Torquay of old , its still very pretty in the summer tho
> I believe its the drugs capital of devon these days , with a worse reputation than Plymouth !
> As for my small town , you can still go out and leave your door unlocked ...day or night .
> As with many places the rubbish only gets collected every two weeks (if you are lucky) and if you dont recycle correctly you are liable to prosecution , the street lights no longer come on at night and the roads are full of potholes , the pubs are slowly shutting up shop and we have gone from 16 main street shops to 8 ..the rest are either charity shops or closed down ...the local council are desperate for money so they approve just about any planning application on green field land and the local school just cant cope (but it is good)


I thought it was bad enough when I left in 2002 ! When I mentioned on another forum that I knew trawler captains in Brixham that never open there doors without a baseball bat , they thought I was taking the **** ! I used to work all around the coast there & whilst it's idyllic by day it's a different place after dark. I'd always try to ensure that I was finished before it was dark & God forbid that you were stuck there late at night when the pubs were emptying ! Teignmouth was as bad as Torquay & Exmouth , at night,  .This must be right up there as the drug centre of Devon.


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## chanel2020 (Jan 17, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> It's a pueblo blanco called Alcala de los Gazules in the Province of Cadiz, pop. 5000. If you click the link in my signature below, you can read more about it. You do have to be fluent in Spanish to live here, it's not in an expat zone and there are no international schools or anything like that. The main "industries" are cork and goats. I'm sure there are similar small towns all over Spain that are off the radar for tourists and expats.


Thanks a lot. I will have a look at it. As you say, I'm sure there are plenty of these small towns all over Spain. Regards Chanel.


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## chanel2020 (Jan 17, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> It's a pueblo blanco called Alcala de los Gazules in the Province of Cadiz, pop. 5000. If you click the link in my signature below, you can read more about it. You do have to be fluent in Spanish to live here, it's not in an expat zone and there are no international schools or anything like that. The main "industries" are cork and goats. I'm sure there are similar small towns all over Spain that are off the radar for tourists and expats.


i jsut had a look at it, it looks charming. i especially love the photos of the local people with their animals. Going back now to look at the rest of it. Cheers, Chanel.


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## donz (May 5, 2010)

just to add....I definitely know what like is like in the UK - I only moved Dec just gone!!! I was up at 4:45 each morning for my job and also got home in the dark.

I wouldn't say people are being negative to others about moving, more telling it like it is. I have been in the same position having asked for advice for the last almost a year so I understand. Luckily we have bought a good business and are expanding it.

The weather here is not that great either right now although certainly a tad warmer but it is quite rainy and still cold - of course it will get better and is better for a larger majority of the year BUT the job situation IS worse - you can't even get bar work for example.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

mrypg9 said:


> taximania said:
> 
> 
> > i have no political affliations , i think tony blair finally killed those off , even i thought 'things can only get better ' might be the start of a new era but it wasnt so
> ...


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## youngagepensioner (May 18, 2009)

If you come to Spain with no job and/or no income then you are asking to fail.

I too live in a small traditional village east of Malaga. There have been several Brit families here over the years. Most of them have had to return to the UK to find work, or at the worst, claim Benefits.

We came here as a result of early retirement and lived full-time in Spain for five years. Now we do half and half.

We have kept our house in the UK and our son lives in it with his girlfriend, so it is there for us to stay in when we visit.

We bought a cheap house in Spain with resources we could raise ourselves. We would not have come here if we'd had to have a mortgage.

We lived for five years solely on my husband's Teachers' Pension of around £8k a year. We now have my State Pension too. But if we had not had the guaranteed income in the way of his Pension, we would not have come. This is one of the reasons we did not want rent or a mortgage; our income was too small to service them.

Our move here was never intended to be permanent and one day we will (hopefully) sell up and move back completely, and maybe rent throughout the winter in Spain, now that we have more income.

OTOH, I have seen people come here (to an area where unemployment is at 40%) with a huge mortgage, school age children, no job, no Spanish and some vague idea to 'start a business' (why they think this will be any easier in a foreign country with different rules where they don't know the language I have no idea). These people last two years until their ability to live on overdrafts and credit cards runs out and they return to the UK (leaving their still-mortgaged home behind) and rent (if they can find work) or live with relatives (if they can't).

I have seen early retirees like ourselves come here having sold a house in the UK, bought one in Spain, and then live on capital. This too always runs out and then they are stuffed.

Also, what do you do as an expat with no family in Spain when you are too old and/or frail to care for yourself? NOt much help here.

MY advice would be this. Spain is a great place, but you do need to be able to support yourself. Know where your income is coming from. Don't over-commit with a large mortgage (buy a cheaper house or rent). Learn at least the basics of the language. I would also say try to keep something in the UK, even if its a bedsit or park home.

And don't knock the UK. We now live there again for six months a year, in a large Midlands city and although there are problems they are no worse than in Spain and at least if you are broke there is a safety net. You can't live on sun, sea and sangria when you have no money. I personally would much rather be broke in the UK.

And in response to something another poster said, I think Morrisons is MUCH cheaper (and better quality) than Mercadona!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

What Donz and YoungAgePensioner have said is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
It's what I've been saying in many posts.
It is NOT being negative to tell people the truth about the economic situation in Spain and the dire shortage of secure well-paid jobs for Spaniards, let alone Brits.
I have always said that if you do not require work and have adequate means, life in Spain is great.
If that seems like doomand gloom-mongering to those who don't have these advantages, so be it.
You have been warned...it's up to you.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

youngagepensioner said:


> And don't knock the UK. We now live there again for six months a year, in a large Midlands city and although there are problems they are no worse than in Spain and at least if you are broke there is a safety net. You can't live on sun, sea and sangria when you have no money. I personally would much rather be broke in the UK.
> 
> And in response to something another poster said, I think Morrisons is MUCH cheaper (and better quality) than Mercadona!


We are in a similar situation to you, having retired ten years early, but we haven´t kept any property in the UK. We have no desire to go back, and would far rather live on our tiny income in Spain. You _can_ live happily and cheaply on sun, sea (mountains in our case) and a Mediterranean diet. Forget the supermarkets, they are only good for cheap beer and pet food. 

As for the UK, how much longer is that safety net you mention going to be there? I doubt it will survive 15 billion pounds worth of welfare spending cuts. And it isn´t true to say that Spain has no safety net or care for the single elderly.

We all have different tastes and needs I know, but as a place to grow old in, Spain wins hands down IMO. It was getting to the point in the UK where I was scared to walk down the road at night on my own!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> We are in a similar situation to you, having retired ten years early, but we haven´t kept any property in the UK. We have no desire to go back, and would far rather live on our tiny income in Spain. You _can_ live happily and cheaply on sun, sea (mountains in our case) and a Mediterranean diet. Forget the supermarkets, they are only good for cheap beer and pet food.
> 
> As for the UK, how much longer is that safety net you mention going to be there? I doubt it will survive 15 billion pounds worth of welfare spending cuts. And it isn´t true to say that Spain has no safety net or care for the single elderly.
> 
> We all have different tastes and needs I know, but as a place to grow old in, Spain wins hands down IMO. It was getting to the point in the UK where I was scared to walk down the road at night on my own!


yes.....if you have a secure regular income..................

if you lose that - sit back & see how much help you'll get from either Spain or the UK, if you are in Spain...............


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## youngagepensioner (May 18, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> We are in a similar situation to you, having retired ten years early, but we haven´t kept any property in the UK. We have no desire to go back, and would far rather live on our tiny income in Spain. You _can_ live happily and* cheaply on sun, sea (mountains in our case) *and a Mediterranean diet. Forget the supermarkets, they are only good for cheap beer and pet food.
> 
> As for the UK, how much longer is that safety net you mention going to be there? I doubt it will survive 15 billion pounds worth of welfare spending cuts. And it isn´t true to say that Spain has no safety net or care for the single elderly.
> 
> We all have different tastes and needs I know, but as a place to grow old in, Spain wins hands down IMO. It was getting to the point in the UK where I was scared to walk down the road at night on my own!


We are in the Sierra Nevada mountains, so we have mountain views too! 

I did not say you can't live cheaply, you can, we did for five years on £8k a year. But you can't live on nothing. And nothing is what the people I am referring to who left to go back to the UK had. No income, no savings, just a huge debt to the bank in the way of overdrafts and mortgage, and a huge credit card bill due to using it to buy food.

I do not actually think Spain is all that cheap any more and the food is quite often of poor quality.

I do not want to be in a mountain village if I am old and frail. The roads are too steep, my house is three storey with three sets of steep stairs, the lane outside it is steep as it is on the side of a mountain, you need to be able to drive if you need anything other than basics, and although the people are friendly and welcoming you can't expect them to care for you if you are too frail to do so yourself. And if you have to go into one of the (few) nursing homes, remember that most people won't speak English and many expats are not fluent in Spanish.

I personally would rather be in the UK with a system I know and understand, conducted in my native tongue, with my friends and family.

That's just my take, other people of course may have a different one.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

I find the food here far better. Especially the pork, which I wouldn't touch in the UK & the chicken which has far more taste.


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## youngagepensioner (May 18, 2009)

I like the pork, chicken and especially the eggs here.

Veggies and fruit I quite often find are poor quality and go mouldy quickly.

I have seen out-of-date-food on the shelves in Mercadona (wre bought a jamon bone and it wasn't until we got it home we realised it was A WEEK out of date, luckily it was only for my friend's dog).

But the scenery from my roof terrace is terrific - over the mountains and through a little pass where I can see a sliver of the Med. The people are friendly. It is a great lifestyle.

But then there are things I can do in the UK that I can't do here and I like doing them when we are doing our UK stint.

Best of both worlds imho!


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I'm staying here, this is my home!

I live in the capital city, everything is within walking distance. We have a car but could easily manage without one. My house is one storey and easily managed, cheap to run, no heating bills.
The cost of living here is far cheaper. The people are polite and that includes the young, they in particular are a pleasure to speak with.

The language here causes me few if any problems, English is rarely spoken, I suppose that is because there are only three English residents on the island. We met some Swiss people that we know and spent the evening conversing in Spanish it is the natural thing to do.

Income is no problem, I noticed on the Britain thread that people are doubting that they can survive on £40,000, goodness, things must be expensive! that would have been an absolute fortune for me.

The U.K. holds no attractions for me whatsoever. I have not returned to visit and have no intentions of doing so. 

We do not have Mercadona (whatever that is) or a Morrisons. There is a proper old fashioned butcher and the vegetables and fruit that we do not grow, we purchase very cheaply from the Saturday morning market. Anything that we cannot purchase we make it ourselves, Pectin for example.

There is very little crime here, cars are left with the keys in the ignition, houses are often left unlocked. Wallets, handbags and mobile phones are left on bars.

Last but not least, the climate, year round eternal springtime,today only 2ºc where I used to live. U.K. versus The Fortunate Islands, no contest! here we stay,

Hepa


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## fido (Aug 25, 2010)

I knew a lot of people were going back to UK after moving to Spain but I didn't realise some of them were families with mortgaged Spanish homes. I wonder how they get a mortgage based on no job and no income? Or do they buy them as holiday homes when still working in UK then pack their jobs in and move?


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## youngagepensioner (May 18, 2009)

Despite having a three story house in a small traditional village, we have no land at all so can't grow anything.

We do get given stuff by the neighbours (we were given a huge bag of oranges yesterday  ), but otherwise we buy them from the market where they are quite cheap. But they are often not of the best quality and if they haven't got something, we have no choice but to go without or buy it from a supermarket (where they are often of even poorer quality).


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## youngagepensioner (May 18, 2009)

fido said:


> I knew a lot of people were going back to UK after moving to Spain but I didn't realise some of them were families with mortgaged Spanish homes. I wonder how they get a mortgage based on no job and no income? Or do they buy them as holiday homes when still working in UK then pack their jobs in and move?


I asked this question once myself and the answer I was given was that in the 'boom' you could just declare an income and it would be accepted without being checked. So basically you could say anything. In the case of one couple I know they declared their UK income (which of course they lost when they came to live in Spain). 

Pretty irresponsible on everyone's part, imho.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

fido said:


> I knew a lot of people were going back to UK after moving to Spain but I didn't realise some of them were families with mortgaged Spanish homes. I wonder how they get a mortgage based on no job and no income? Or do they buy them as holiday homes when still working in UK then pack their jobs in and move?


they may well have had a job or business & therefore an income when they got the mortgage 

or it could be your other suggested scenario

I have known families in both situations


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

youngagepensioner said:


> I asked this question once myself and the answer I was given was that in the 'boom' you could just declare an income and it would be accepted without being checked. So basically you could say anything. In the case of one couple I know they declared their UK income (which of course they lost when they came to live in Spain).
> 
> Pretty irresponsible on everyone's part, imho.


yes - that scenario too

there was a guy arranging mortgages around here who was producing false 'proof' for anyone who asked for it

he went to jail................


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

youngagepensioner said:


> Despite having a three story house in a small traditional village, we have no land at all so can't grow anything.
> 
> We do get given stuff by the neighbours (we were given a huge bag of oranges yesterday  ), but otherwise we buy them from the market where they are quite cheap. But they are often not of the best quality and if they haven't got something, we have no choice but to go without or buy it from a supermarket (where they are often of even poorer quality).


Supermarkets in Spain are like those in the UK. If you choose wisely you will find quality produce. It is a fallacy to believe that 'local' or 'small shop' produce is superior. It's a myth propagated by the eco-movement. As with supermarkets, sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. 
We shall stay in Spain for a few more years then move on to France.We have no property to worry about. When we're decrepit we'll go to Scotland.
Life here is good for us because we are able to enjoy the lifestyle of our choice. And that's where financial circumstamnces kick in.
I have absolutely no desire to live a life where I have to count every euro before I spend it. My idea of a simple life isn't based on fancy restaurants (although I enjoy good food), nightlife or a life based on socialising and partying.
But it does involve a large house in a 'good', quiet area with all mod cons and pool, a decent reliable vehicle, quality but simple food and good wine, tv for when I want to watch it and a constant supply of books. 
I spent too much time when I was younger counting pennies to do that now. I spent years working to be able to do what I am now doing and I make no apologies for wanting this lifestyle - the same as my middle-class Spanish friends and neighbours enjoy.
The fact is that you don't get what you want just like that - you plan and work towards it, whatever your choice of life in Spain. Some like the flash and glitz of Marbella, some prefer the pueblo. All are equally valid...and all are the 'real Spain'.
But whatever you want from Spain, if you are unskilled, poor and inexperienced or just unlucky you stand a high chance of going home with your tail between your legs.


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## youngagepensioner (May 18, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> yes - that scenario too
> 
> there was a guy arranging mortgages around here who was producing false 'proof' for anyone who asked for it
> 
> he went to jail................



I can't imagine why anyone would even WANT a huge mortgage when they don't have the income to support it. What on earth is going on in their heads? We bought what we could afford and we knew we couldn't afford to pay out for either rent or mortgage repayments. With a combination of our own savings, money from a cheap inherited property and money made by selling our worldly goods on e-bay, we managed to buy our house for £35k, and later the little derelict one adjoining it for £12k with the lump sum from my husband's Teachers' Pension.

If we could not have got what we wanted for our budget, we would not have come to live here, we'd have stayed put and had some nice holidays.

Our next move will be to sell up in a few years (if we can!) and use the money to buy an apartment in the UK. Here we will live for half the year and for the rest of the year rent it out and use the rental money to rent us a place in Spain or France for the winter. That's plan A. If we can't sell the house we'll have to go onto Plan B, which will be to live in our UK house with our son , his girlfriend and the lodger for half the year and live in our Spanish house for the autumn/winter (this in fact is what we are doing at the moment, for the last couple of years. It gets a bit cramped as the UK house is only a mid-terrace!.

Anyway, :focus:, I think the main point of this thread is that Spain is great if you have an income, but if you are penniless it will have to be 'UK here we come', because there is not much in the way of financial help in Spain for destitute expats.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

youngagepensioner said:


> Anyway, :focus:, I think the main point of this thread is that Spain is great if you have an income, but if you are penniless it will have to be 'UK here we come', because there is not much in the way of financial help in Spain for destitute expats.


That's it in one but many people don't want to believe that. Tv property shows and cheap holidays have planted the idea of something called 'the Spanish dream' in their heads.
There's a phrase I picked up from somewhere which I think sums up a certain type you get here: 'ten-bob millionaires'. People with lifestyles whose means don't match up. These people often have a sense of entitlement: I remember someone moaning that they couldn't get free healthcare the minute they stepped off the plane. Steve soon put them right.
Time was when unscrupulous agents and developers gave stupid people with insufficient means mortgages to buy 'dream homes' if they had a pulse and a passport, to coin another phrase. The kind of people who took up those offers contributed to the bust in the construction industry as well as helping to give certain parts of Spain a poor image.
Well, those times are thankfully in the past and won't return.
But the shoddy houses and ugly developments remain.
If I had to choose I would much rather live in the kind of ambiance you describe than in some horrible urbanizacion which wouldn't look out of place in Liverpool or Lewisham on a sunny day.


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## Calas felices (Nov 29, 2007)

*Mortgages*

An estate agent from another site said:
I remember when I (briefly) worked for one of the large estate agents here in 2005. The number of people coming over to buy property by remortgaging the UK house to get the deposit for the Spanish mortgage was scary. Some even put the 3 grand holding deposit on a credit card as well. They didn't have a pot to piss in but were swanning around here like bloody millionaires. I even had one muppet in the car who had worked out that he could buy an apartment on a 100% mortgage and his benefits would cover it.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

It wasnt so bad when the exchange rate was "good" and everything was so much cheaper in Spain. €1.60 to the pound, cheap houses, food, drink, petrol, cost of living....! But its more or less the same these days!

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

youngagepensioner said:


> Despite having a three story house in a small traditional village, we have no land at all so can't grow anything.
> 
> We do get given stuff by the neighbours (we were given a huge bag of oranges yesterday  ), but otherwise we buy them from the market where they are quite cheap. But they are often not of the best quality and if they haven't got something, we have no choice but to go without or buy it from a supermarket (where they are often of even poorer quality).


But isn't the whole idea of shopping in the market to buy what looks good and fresh on the day, things that are in season, and then planning your menu round that?

Fresh produce from the market goes off quickly here because it isn't artificially prevented from ripening (via refrigeration and/or ethanol inhibiting gases). That's why it tastes better, but it doesn't keep. It's not meant to!


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## youngagepensioner (May 18, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> But isn't the whole idea of shopping in the market to buy what looks good and fresh on the day, things that are in season, and then planning your menu round that?
> 
> Fresh produce from the market goes off quickly here because it isn't artificially prevented from ripening (via refrigeration and/or ethanol inhibiting gases). That's why it tastes better, but it doesn't keep. It's not meant to!


I don't go to the market every day, it's half an hour in the car and we don't always want to bother.

TBH, all I can find to say about the produce is that it is cheap and I suppose if you do buy it every day then that's Ok, although I have actually seen mouldy stuff on sale!

No-one ever believes me when I say that but it is true.

Anyway, we decide what we are going to eat first and then buy the ingredients, not the other way round!


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

youngagepensioner said:


> TBH, all I can find to say about the produce is that it is cheap and I suppose if you do buy it every day then that's Ok, although I have actually seen mouldy stuff on sale!


My wife is spanish and on the whole would agree with you. 



youngagepensioner said:


> No-one ever believes me when I say that but it is true.


I believe you but in Spain you must be able to get to the markets. Sad you live too far away 



youngagepensioner said:


> Anyway, we decide what we are going to eat first and then buy the ingredients, not the other way round!


That is definitely not the way to get the best out of spain. As someone who enjoys cooking I can say cooking in Spain is one of my greatest pleasures. The whole process, the banter in the market, the smells and colours, the choice, buying the very best, preparing, cooking even with much less facilities than I have in the UK, then serving, eating and all followed with french & English cheese and port - OK spain doesn't have everything


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Good job we're not all the same isnt it !!!

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

nigele2 said:


> My wife is spanish and on the whole would agree with you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


oh to have the time............


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## BigD (Jan 29, 2011)

Life in the UK? Hmmm unfortunately the impending cuts and pessimism in the media is leading to a general feeling of gloom in the UK at the moment. In reality things are not that bad for the majority, it has been a beautiful day here in Hampshire and my wife and I have been out in the car with the roof down and are now settling down with a pleasant glass of vino. However for us this is the crux of it, the weather here is so unpredictable; I know our high rainfall gives us our green and pleasant land but we have sat on our sun terrace in Nerja in February in glorious warm sunshine. It sometimes gets damp and chilly but the Southern Spanish climate clinches it for us everytime.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

nigele2 said:


> That is definitely not the way to get the best out of spain. As someone who enjoys cooking I can say cooking in Spain is one of my greatest pleasures. The whole process, the banter in the market, the smells and colours, the choice, buying the very best, preparing, cooking even with much less facilities than I have in the UK, then serving, eating and all followed with french & English cheese and port - OK spain doesn't have everything


Absolutely!

Try _amontillado seco _with _queso emborrado_ (goats cheese marinated in olive oil and mountain herbs), or a good _oloroso_ with a bowl of ripe figs and fresh hazelnuts.

Spanish food can hold its own, especially if you poke around in the more obscure gastronomic corners.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

BigD said:


> Life in the UK? Hmmm unfortunately the impending cuts and pessimism in the media is leading to a general feeling of gloom in the UK at the moment. In reality things are not that bad for the majority....


I think thats the main problem with the UK. The media broadcast the "problems" to death with pessimism and gloom. I'm not saying that things arent bad, but they sure as hell are depressing when thats all you hear! The weather in the UK just adds to the gloomy feeling! Whereas in Spain, it seems that the media dont bang on quite as much, the weather makes people feel happier and all in all it gives a sense of well being and optimism

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

youngagepensioner said:


> I don't go to the market every day, it's half an hour in the car and we don't always want to bother.
> 
> TBH, all I can find to say about the produce is that it is cheap and I suppose if you do buy it every day then that's Ok, although I have actually seen mouldy stuff on sale!
> 
> No-one ever believes me when I say that but it is true.


I can't think of any reason you'd want to lie, so I believe you.

Our permanent market is very small and only has one stall owned by a Galician family who, according to them, bring things every day or other day from their farm up there. Sounds good, doesn't it? Well, we stopped going 'cos it was rotten and horrible.
There's another fruit market on Saturdays, but we don't go 'cos we're always doing other stuff on Saturdays, so we just go to a normal fruit and veg shop in the village when we can't get every thing we want from our eco farmer who get a weekly delivery from. And it's good stuff, from the central MercaMadrid.
Most supermarkets that I've been to don't have top quality, but it depends (Mercadona in Malaga and Guardamar were awful, Carrefour El Pinar, not bad, but not first choice, Eroski central Bilbao??? Why go there? The market is next door with top quality) But what you can't say is that there are poor quality friut and vegetables in Spain. Ypu may be able to say that there is poor quality where *you* shop, which I think is more accurate.



Alcalaina said:


> Fresh produce from the market goes off quickly here because it isn't artificially prevented from ripening (via refrigeration and/or ethanol inhibiting gases). That's why it tastes better, but it doesn't keep. It's not meant to!


I was going to say the same A.!



mrypg9 said:


> Supermarkets in Spain are like those in the UK. If you choose wisely you will find quality produce. It is a fallacy to believe that 'local' or 'small shop' produce is superior. It's a myth _*propagated by the eco-movement*_. As with supermarkets, sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.


I don't think it's got anything to do with the "eco movement". I think it's an stereotype idea people have got in their heads that has little to do with reality, like Spain is bullfighting and flamenco, and Brits are cultured and polite


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

nigele2 said:


> My wife is spanish and on the whole would agree with you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Hepa said:


> nigele2 said:
> 
> 
> > My wife is spanish and on the whole would agree with you.
> ...


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Hepa said:
> 
> 
> > You have mixed up Nigele with Nigella as in Lawson.
> ...


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## youngagepensioner (May 18, 2009)

nigele2 said:


> My wife is spanish and on the whole would agree with you.
> Oh good!
> 
> 
> ...


I hate the banter in the market. I hate the crowds in the market. I hate people pushing in in the market. I don't go in if it is too crowded and noisy. Hubby likes it however, so he goes while I sit in the car.

Mind you, markets in the UK are like this as well, and I hate it there too!

However our nearest market in Spain at the moment is in the buildings and grounds of a convent while its usual base is being renovated, and I like that, because it is an interesting building!


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## youngagepensioner (May 18, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Absolutely!
> 
> Try _amontillado seco _with _queso emborrado_ (goats cheese marinated in olive oil and mountain herbs), or a good _oloroso_ with a bowl of ripe figs and fresh hazelnuts.
> 
> Spanish food can hold its own, especially if you poke around in the more obscure gastronomic corners.



Oh dear, I am going to sound so miserable after saying I don't like the markets, but I don't like olives or figs either. 

I do like some of the soups and potato dishes and our local bar is famed for Encarna's _carne en salsa_, which is delicious.

There are not actually all that many foods I do not like, but most of the ones I don't like seem to be Spanish! I think it's mainly because where I live everything is fried and/or has litres of olive oil poured on it and the meat is fatty by British standards. Hearty mountain food and not usually a vegetable in sight!


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