# Security wall/electrical fencing?



## surfrider

After traveling and living in many different area's in Mexico I have purchased a home and now I am looking for some ideas about security for the property. 

At the current time there is just a chain link fence around the outside. That requires a pair of good wire cutters and any body is in. 

Where I live is safe enough but still I would like to see this home more secure. 

There is not a lot of land between the chain link fence and the house. The chain link does allow for the breezes to come through If I put a solid wall around the house I think that would cut down on the air that comes into the house AND feel just a little too close. I do not know?

I could put up a wall with slats to let the air in. I could also wire the fencing but is there a problem with someone's kid touching the fence and getting hurt? 

Any suggestions from the forum about security around the home?:confused2::confused2:


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## sparks

Bougainvillea makes a good deterrent but needs time to grow. 

I have 3 meter brick walls and still get good air circulation but property is 20x20 with house on one side. 

Anything of metal or fancy louvers sounds expensive

A dog


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## Hound Dog

When we first moved to Lake Chapala in 2001, we bought a walled-in property with 8 foot high walls but, in those days, that was it. Then about three years ago, the Lake Chapala area turned ugly with numerous violent home invasions and burglaries and even some street assaults and kidnappings and murders. We changed our security mode, put up some comcertina wire and installed a constantly monitored, movement and heat sensitive alarm system around the periphery of our home. now, if anyone comes over our eight foot walls made even taller with the concertina now overgrown with vines, that alarm, once they cross a certain invisible barrier, goes off with a sound similar to the hounds of hell and tha alarm company, unless we call them off, is there in a few minutes and with the cops if necessary. This wasn´t a cheap installation and the monthly monitoring cost is $400 Pesos but worth every centavo. There have been many bad news home invasions around Lake Chapala lately and I wanted a constantly monitored alarm system that is engaged before some creep enters my home. I also wanted an alarm company that comes to my home with the cops if I don´t call them off with a special code. 

Don´t take security lightly in Mexico. Always remember that law enforcement is quite ineffectual here and Almost nobody is convicted or imprisoned here for even the most heinous crimes. In Mexico you are expected to be responsible for your own butt and you had better believe it.

By the way; at Lake Chapala, young thugs are well known to jump walls and electrified fencing with ease and these kids are damned athletic. Think before you buy any security system. You want a loud alarm that scares the hell out of them and calls in a third party serious about their mission. Since the cops here are usually crooked as well - don´t let the in your house unless you must do so. They will steal anything the thieves left behind.


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## Isla Verde

Hound Dog, do you feel safer in your home in San Cristóbal than you do in Lake Chapala?


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=Isla Verde;1232083]Hound Dog, do you feel safer in your home in San Cristóbal than you do in Lake Chapala?[/QUOTE]_

We feel much safer in San Cristóbal than at Lake Chapala, I suppose, mainly because we live in a Mexican community where people look out for each other since local law enforcement is not at all trusted. At Lake Chapala, in the neighborhood, largely comprised of anglos, in which we reside, there is not even remotely the same community spirit we experience in the El Cerrillo Barrio of San Cristóbal. 

All homeowners in the El Cerrillo Barrio have loud bells or alarms which they activate at the first sign of any home or street invasion or assault and, typically, upon any hint of trouble, everyone pours into the street ready to assault any miscreants thereabouts and they are very serious about this "neighborhood watch" responsibility. At Lake Chapala, at least where I live, I wouldn´t count on any neighbor for help and that is why we pay somebody in Chapala to respond in case we are assaulted on the street or have our home invaded. 

In El Cerrillo, it is the miscreants who pray for the cops they hope will arrive before the neighbors stomp them to death.


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## PanamaJack

surfrider said:


> After traveling and living in many different area's in Mexico I have purchased a home and now I am looking for some ideas about security for the property.
> 
> At the current time there is just a chain link fence around the outside. That requires a pair of good wire cutters and any body is in.
> 
> Where I live is safe enough but still I would like to see this home more secure.
> 
> There is not a lot of land between the chain link fence and the house. The chain link does allow for the breezes to come through If I put a solid wall around the house I think that would cut down on the air that comes into the house AND feel just a little too close. I do not know?
> 
> I could put up a wall with slats to let the air in. I could also wire the fencing but is there a problem with someone's kid touching the fence and getting hurt?
> 
> Any suggestions from the forum about security around the home?:confused2::confused2:


Maybe because I have been here so long (40 years) I am immune to feeling closed in, but to me the best thing you could do is put up solid walls of block. The air will still circulate around your house and people will not know what you have inside your place. Otherwise passersby can see cars, patio furniture, bicycles, etc etc as well as look in windows. Just the walls themselves are more of a deterrant than chainlink fencing. I would also put electrified razor wire on the top of the walls. You will be amazed how quickly you will notice the walls but your eyes will not see the wire... it looks quite ugly to start and you may feel like a prisoner in your home, but it pays for itself in no time and your mind will forget about it even being there.


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## Longford

sparks said:


> Bougainvillea makes a good deterrent but needs time to grow. ... A dog


:clap2:


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## Longford

Hound Dog said:


> Don´t take security lightly in Mexico. Always remember that law enforcement is quite ineffectual here and Almost nobody is convicted or imprisoned here for even the most heinous crimes. In Mexico you are expected to be responsible for your own butt and you had better believe it.


:clap2:


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=PanamaJack;1232230]Maybe because I have been here so long (40 years) I am immune to feeling closed in, but to me the best thing you could do is put up solid walls of block. The air will still circulate around your house and people will not know what you have inside your place. Otherwise passersby can see cars, patio furniture, bicycles, etc etc as well as look in windows. Just the walls themselves are more of a deterrant than chainlink fencing. I would also put electrified razor wire on the top of the walls. You will be amazed how quickly you will notice the walls but your eyes will not see the wire... it looks quite ugly to start and you may feel like a prisoner in your home, but it pays for itself in no time and your mind will forget about it even being there.[/QUOTE]_

This is good advice and I second PJ´s recommmendation. We have solid stone walls topped in places with concertina wire where truly vulnerable. Those walls were four feet high when we bought the place and we immediately raised those walls to eight feet and later added the concertina. The nice thing about the concertina is that one can grow flowering vines over it thereby concealing the wire so now our walls including the concertina are around eleven feet high but quite attractive with the vines. we have grown to love the privacy since nobody can see into our property and, as I stated earlier, we activate that invisible fence alarm system at night or when we are not at home even a few minutes. The punks around Lake Chapala are really good at their trade and have spies you will not spot when you head for that shopping trip for an hour or so. Their spies can alert the thieves to both your comings and goings but the beauty of the invisible wall alarm systenm is that it goes off before they actually get into your house and then it´s "feets don´t fail me now!" time 

What´s funny is that I was raised in a beautiful little town in South Alabama where fences or high walls were considered anti-social behavior. The only appropriate privacy barriers were mature hedges and other plants and trees. This was so that, when Atticus Fench stolled down the lane he and his kids could admire one´s property and exchange greetings as one sat on one´s front porch. After 12 years in Mexico, my walls enclose my private domain and I love it.


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## TundraGreen

Hound Dog said:


> What´s funny is that I was raised in a beautiful little town in South Alabama where fences or high walls were considered anti-social behavior. The only appropriate privacy barriers were mature hedges and other plants and trees. This was so that, when Atticus Fench stolled down the lane he and his kids could admire one´s property and exchange greetings as one sat on one´s front porch. After 12 years in Mexico, my walls enclose my private domain and I love it.


I have a traditional Mexican city house: adobe, wall-to-wall with my neighbors, with rooms arranged around three interior patios for open space. So privacy comes with the design. My approach to security is to not own anything I worry about losing. My computer is backed up (two local backups, and one cloud backup), and nothing else is very valuable or portable. Who would steal a refri or stove.

The most common entry route here is over the roofs, then drop into the patios. I guess I could put an electrified fence around the roof or get a roof dog. But I like the open views when I sit on my roof and I don't want to have to worry about a dog when I am gone. So I just accept the risk. If I lose my computer, I would be irate, but it would give me the opportunity to get a newer and faster one.


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=TundraGreen;1233315]I have a traditional Mexican city house: adobe, wall-to-wall with my neighbors, with rooms arranged around three interior patios for open space. So privacy comes with the design. My approach to security is to not own anything I worry about losing. My computer is backed up (two local backups, and one cloud backup), and nothing else is very valuable or portable. *Who would steal a refri or stove.*

The most common entry route here is over the roofs, then drop into the patios. I guess I could put an electrified fence around the roof or get a roof dog. But I like the open views when I sit on my roof and I don't want to have to worry about a dog when I am gone. So I just accept the risk. If I lose my computer, I would be irate, but it would give me the opportunity to get a newer and faster one.[/QUOTE]_ 

Actually our situation in San Cristóbal is similar to yours in Guadalajara and, as there, the most common break-in method is to enter over the roof. As to who would steal a stove, that´s precisely what happened in Chiapas when we first moved there. A new house was under construction and some thieves (insiders, no doubt, a common occurence down there which is why you hire guards at night to watch the property hoping that they are not theives themselves and can stay awake) came to the property in the middle of the night to steal the new appliances which had just been delivered to the site. These guys were pulling the stove down our street along with other appliances when the bottom drawer of the stove fell into the street making a loud clanging racket at about 2:00AM. I´ve never even seen anything like in in the U.S. or Lake Chapala but, within no time at all. the thieves were surrounded by locals who trounced those guys and called in the cops. To make the tale even more fun, the U.S. woman building the house was in the U.S. and had turned over the construction management to a local property manager but, since the stove was not the property of the manager, the only way the woman un the U.S. could get her stove back was to fly down there and retrieve it but only with documentation proving that was the stove she had just purchased for her new house. I have no idea how this was resolved if it ever was since follow-up news stories regarding criminal acts seem to be non-existent in Chiapas but my guess is that the local cops were reciepients of a nice new stove at the pricinct station or the boss´s personal residence and that´s the way it is there.


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## diablita

Sorry but I find this thread a bit disconcerting. If you are so worried about your safety and security that you need an electric fence or other such measures why come here in the first place. I live a few miles outside of Acapulco, supposedly one of the most dangerous in the world and have never had a problem, break in, theft, whatever and have been here 16 years. I socialize with my neighbors, help folks in the neighborhood when I can, let some of the kids use my computer etc. Last week I accompanied a friend to the "clausura" for her 5 yr. old son's kindergarten class and went to a party for a friend's granddaughter's first communion. In other words, I don't hide behind a brick wall worrying that someone might steal my stuff. Just sayin......


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## AlanMexicali

diablita said:


> Sorry but I find this thread a bit disconcerting. If you are so worried about your safety and security that you need an electric fence or other such measures why come here in the first place. I live a few miles outside of Acapulco, supposedly one of the most dangerous in the world and have never had a problem, break in, theft, whatever and have been here 16 years. I socialize with my neighbors, help folks in the neighborhood when I can, let some of the kids use my computer etc. Last week I accompanied a friend to the "clausura" for her 5 yr. old son's kindergarten class and went to a party for a friend's granddaughter's first communion. In other words, I don't hide behind a brick wall worrying that someone might steal my stuff. Just sayin......


In middle class and upper middle class colonias it is more of a problem, not so much in working class colonias. 

We have to be aware of what a target houses that look impressive are to thieves.

I have been burglarized 3 times in 8 years and know that my middle/upper middle class colonia has many breakins even on my street in Mexicali. Luckily I have a central alarm system.

It is not paranoia but simply common sense and experience, especially when not living there all the time.

Check out this thread of what is happening on my street:

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/me...-mexico/107916-my-neighborhood-vigilance.html


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## PanamaJack

diablita said:


> Sorry but I find this thread a bit disconcerting. If you are so worried about your safety and security that you need an electric fence or other such measures why come here in the first place. I live a few miles outside of Acapulco, supposedly one of the most dangerous in the world and have never had a problem, break in, theft, whatever and have been here 16 years. I socialize with my neighbors, help folks in the neighborhood when I can, let some of the kids use my computer etc. Last week I accompanied a friend to the "clausura" for her 5 yr. old son's kindergarten class and went to a party for a friend's granddaughter's first communion. In other words, I don't hide behind a brick wall worrying that someone might steal my stuff. Just sayin......


I say this with no harm intended, but for many thieves, stealing something from homes in working class neighbors is not worth the risk. First of all, valuable items are not as plentiful in those homes, and people living in those neighborhoods tend to take justice into their own hands more often and the thieves would prefer not to get a whipping. 

It is human nature anywhere around the world that breaking into middle class homes and above will net more loot for the thieves, and as Alan mentioned, it is just plain common sense to protect what is yours. Hound Dog has the right idea with the bouganvilla. Growing up I always thought how pretty all the walls were in my neighborhood and realized when I was older that they were two-fold -safety security and beauty...


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## Guategringo

diablita said:


> Sorry but I find this thread a bit disconcerting. If you are so worried about your safety and security that you need an electric fence or other such measures why come here in the first place. I live a few miles outside of Acapulco, supposedly one of the most dangerous in the world and have never had a problem, break in, theft, whatever and have been here 16 years. I socialize with my neighbors, help folks in the neighborhood when I can, let some of the kids use my computer etc. Last week I accompanied a friend to the "clausura" for her 5 yr. old son's kindergarten class and went to a party for a friend's granddaughter's first communion. In other words, I don't hide behind a brick wall worrying that someone might steal my stuff. Just sayin......


Consider yourself lucky or an exception to the rule. It is obvious that people would not put up such protection - high walls, electrified fences, razor ribbon, alarm systems - if it were not needed? No one wants to feel like they are trapped in their own home, but no one wants others to be uninvited visitors when they are home or not at home. 

I often wondered in my first years in Guatemala why all the windows had bars on them, or why many walls had glass shards on top. Or why even the smallest of businesses had an armed guard. WELL where there is extreme poverty, there is vandalism and theft, where 95% of the wealth is held by 5% of the population people steal and rob to survive. 

In Guatemala City, they had problems about three years ago with maids letting thieves in the home. The thieves would tie up the homeowners, if they were there and acutally fill a truck full of televisions, furntures, computers, etc, etc during the day time when most neigbors were working or might have thought the family was moving... true it happens I know, one of my Guatemalan friends had it happen to them. Their comment afterwards - "At least my wife and kids are alive."


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## surfrider

Guategringo said:


> Consider yourself lucky or an exception to the rule. It is obvious that people would not put up such protection - high walls, electrified fences, razor ribbon, alarm systems - if it were not needed? No one wants to feel like they are trapped in their own home, but no one wants others to be uninvited visitors when they are home or not at home.
> 
> I often wondered in my first years in Guatemala why all the windows had bars on them, or why many walls had glass shards on top. Or why even the smallest of businesses had an armed guard. WELL where there is extreme poverty, there is vandalism and theft, where 95% of the wealth is held by 5% of the population people steal and rob to survive.
> 
> In Guatemala City, they had problems about three years ago with maids letting thieves in the home. The thieves would tie up the homeowners, if they were there and acutally fill a truck full of televisions, furntures, computers, etc, etc during the day time when most neigbors were working or might have thought the family was moving... true it happens I know, one of my Guatemalan friends had it happen to them. Their comment afterwards - "At least my wife and kids are alive."


I am thinking of a outside wall of cactus against the chain link, then bougainvilleas and a dog. I have the dog - good watch dog - i have the chain link and some bougainvilleas?


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## Guategringo

surfrider said:


> I am thinking of a outside wall of cactus against the chain link, then bougainvilleas and a dog. I have the dog - good watch dog - i have the chain link and some bougainvilleas?


My suggestion is NO. Here's why. About 15 years ago I was living in a home in Guatemala City. Corner lot, chain link fence, vines up and down the fence and a dog. Inside our yard was a cage with two parrots. One night we heard some noise but not the dog barking so we got up but not quick enough. As we opened the front door and turned on the outside light, two men slipped out through a hole in the fence and the vines with our parrots and the cage and took off to a waiting pickup. Lying on the ground sleeping was our dog with a small piece of meat next to him. They had loaded the meat with tranquilizers and once the dog fell asleep they cut the vines and fence and took the parrots cage and all. The only thing they left was a bit of flesh on the chained link fence as they made their get away. As Panama Jack said I suggest block and razor ribbon. We lost our dog that night as well. Thieves will do what it takes to get what they want.


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## TundraGreen

I think this thread jinxed me. I have lived here for 6 years with no problems. Today I was out of the house for about 15 minutes. Someone came over the wall and stole my US passport, drivers license, credit and debit cards, an SLR camera, an iPod Touch and an iPad. They were all laid out together as I was packing for a trip. I made it very easy for them.


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## surfrider

Guategringo said:


> My suggestion is NO. Here's why. About 15 years ago I was living in a home in Guatemala City. Corner lot, chain link fence, vines up and down the fence and a dog. Inside our yard was a cage with two parrots. One night we heard some noise but not the dog barking so we got up but not quick enough. As we opened the front door and turned on the outside light, two men slipped out through a hole in the fence and the vines with our parrots and the cage and took off to a waiting pickup. Lying on the ground sleeping was our dog with a small piece of meat next to him. They had loaded the meat with tranquilizers and once the dog fell asleep they cut the vines and fence and took the parrots cage and all. The only thing they left was a bit of flesh on the chained link fence as they made their get away. As Panama Jack said I suggest block and razor ribbon. We lost our dog that night as well. Thieves will do what it takes to get what they want.


wow! thanks that just kind of made me wake up.


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## surfrider

TundraGreen said:


> I think this thread jinxed me. I have lived here for 6 years with no problems. Today I was out of the house for about 15 minutes. Someone came over the wall and stole my US passport, drivers license, credit and debit cards, an SLR camera, an iPod Touch and an iPad. They were all laid out together as I was packing for a trip. I made it very easy for them.


Double WOW. What a mess for you. I am so sorry that happened.
I am putting up a wall ...


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## AlanMexicali

TundraGreen said:


> I think this thread jinxed me. I have lived here for 6 years with no problems. Today I was out of the house for about 15 minutes. Someone came over the wall and stole my US passport, drivers license, credit and debit cards, an SLR camera, an iPod Touch and an iPad. They were all laid out together as I was packing for a trip. I made it very easy for them.


Sorry that happened to you. 

2 Saturdays ago in the afternoon our friend drove 10 minutes one direction to pick her daughter up after work, a weekly event, and they cut the padlock on her cochera, crowbarred her wooden door and cleaned her out all within 20 minutes.

The neighbor noticed a van parked in front of her cochera but didn't think to investigate. She has a central alarm system now and we got one for one of our rentals installed also. Total was $3,400 pesos with a radio telephone instead of a Telmex land line, more reliable, $1,600 pesos with a land line, and $350.00 pesos a month. A 1 year contract. SDS a local company I think.


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## makaloco

Very sorry that happened, TG. My experience was similar: no problems for years, then one morning I came home from Zumba class to find that someone had tried to break in. Bars were broken on the bedroom window and the screen torn on the back door, but the only thing stolen was an ancient digital camera I'd carelessly left on the patio. I have 3-meter block walls around the back and neighbors on all sides. Since I'd gone out on foot (car was in the cochera), the police said it had to be someone who watched me leave, knew I lived alone, knew my dog was a puppy (he wasn't harmed), etc. Creepy. So I had an alarm system installed with contacts and motion sensors. It cost about 5,000 pesos and I pay 3,000 annually for monitoring.


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## RVGRINGO

What bad news from all of you! This tough economy is causing an increase in opportunistic crime everywhere. Time to lock up tighter and get a watch-dog, if you do not already have one; or three of them.


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## citlali

We have razor wires on top of a wall and an alarm, the type that is like an invisible wall and also movement detectors on the roof. I want to know when people are stepping on the terrasse or on the roof. A week after the alarm was installed some one tried to get in. We have double doors, the metal door outside was open but the alarm sound made them take off. The type of alarm we have allows the dogs in the garden so we have dogs and alarm.
To me they can take whatever I own , I do not have anything that cannot be replaced but I do not want to wake up in the middle of the night with someone in the house. I have piece of mind now because I know the alarm will wake me up.
I love walls. I grew up with highwalls with glass on top and I love the privacy of tall walls and bars or shutters on windows. When I moved to the States I hated the open feeling and could not sleep. It is all about what you are used to.
By the way as kids we used to go into parks and property where we were not supposed to go and we would clinb the stone walls put clothes over the glass and have no problems getting in. Glass is not particularly secure.
Tundra green sorry about your papers, that is the biggest pain to have them replaced. Last year I took all my papers, French and Mexicans to go to DF to the French consulate and my purse got stolen, I had to replace everything, it was awful. The first thing you need is the report to the ministerio publico then it takes time , you are lucky you live near the consulate, I had to go backto DF to get my passport...


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## citlali

sorry peace of mind..


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## RVGRINGO

Many of us, of a certain age, understand the need for peace of mind and the curse of having a piece of mind remaining.


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## Marishka

Hound Dog said:


> By the way; at Lake Chapala, young thugs are well known to jump walls and electrified fencing with ease and these kids are damned athletic.





citlali said:


> By the way as kids we used to go into parks and property where we were not supposed to go and we would clinb the stone walls put clothes over the glass and have no problems getting in.


Those statements are a good reminder that some security measures, such as a tall wall topped with razor wire or broken glass, can give homeowners a false sense of security. Ed Clancy, the US Consular Agent in San Miguel de Allende, warned the expats there that someone can just throw a leather jacket, blanket or small mattress over most kinds of wall protection tops. 

Going the extra mile by adding the type of alarm system that Hound Dog and Citlali have installed at their home is a very good idea.


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## TundraGreen

Thanks for the condolences everyone. I went to the consulate this morning. Luckily for me, it is a 15 minute walk to the consulate. I turned in the paperwork, paid $1755 mxn, waited about 3 hours. I have to go back this afternoon to pick up a temporary passport.

I have started locking all the interior doors now. I used to just lock the street door and iron gate. But that didn't help if people dropped into the patios from the roof. Now I lock all the interior doors as well. They all have keyed deadbolts requiring keys on both sides. So even if someone breaks a window they cannot open the doors. 

The only thing left worth stealing is the computer I am writing this on. I am going to leave it at a friend's house while I am gone. I am concerned that they might come back.

I am still thinking about additional fencing or an alarm system for the future.

Incidentally, I called the police and reported the theft. They took my name and address, but I haven't seen them. I have been gone some clearing up problems so I don't know if they came by while I was out.

I also told Apple to clear my computer devices if they ever show up on the network. So far they haven't. They were both secured with a code, and all the info of any value on them was further encrypted so I am not too worried about that aspect.


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=RVGRINGO;1236892]Many of us, of a certain age, understand the need for peace of mind and the curse of having a piece of mind remaining. [/QUOTE]_

A clever response to Citlali, RV, who happens to be Dawg´s spouse. When she gives me a piece of her mind, I find my peace of mind to be in tatters. I would like to give her a piece of my mind but my peace of mind requires that I seek peace rather that finding my mind in pieces because Citlali is one tough broad so I seek peace by trying to piece it all together before I collapse piecemeal.

She did I must admit, piece together the English and French languages well after moving from France to Alabama for an intended temporary stay on a short-term work visa and then fooilishly married Dawg in 1971, an event that has provided Dawg with much peace along with occasional pieces of anxiety.


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## citlali

You did not mention any immigration papers which at least is a relief if you did not lose that. I had to get a duplicate Inmigrado card and for that you need the MP report or I guess police and wait and wait. I had no ID of anytype and the toughest thing for me to get was the driver´s license... at least I had copies of everything. Even my apostilled birth certificate was missing in action.

We usually back up the info we need from our computer on a couple of memory sticks so at least that will not go.

Good luck on getting what you need back what a pain!

Yes another feel you have after this happens is that they will be back but they may have been just watching and you were the infortunate one that went out. Did you check your house for tagging?
In Chiapas they leave very tiny signs usually indicating how to get in and we try to paint over as soon as we see them but sometimes they are hard to see.
Good luck.


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## TundraGreen

citlali said:


> You did not mention any immigration papers which at least is a relief if you did not lose that. I had to get a duplicate Inmigrado card and for that you need the MP report or I guess police and wait and wait. I had no ID of anytype and the toughest thing for me to get was the driver´s license... at least I had copies of everything. Even my apostilled birth certificate was missing in action.
> 
> We usually back up the info we need from our computer on a couple of memory sticks so at least that will not go.
> 
> Good luck on getting what you need back what a pain!
> 
> Yes another feel you have after this happens is that they will be back but they may have been just watching and you were the infortunate one that went out. Did you check your house for tagging?
> In Chiapas they leave very tiny signs usually indicating how to get in and we try to paint over as soon as we see them but sometimes they are hard to see.
> Good luck.


I was lucky that all my Mexican cards were not in the house at the time. I will look for tags. Most of the tags in this neighborhood are graffiti and I have been painting over them, but that is another story.


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## mickisue1

citlali said:


> sorry peace of mind..


English is--what? your second? third? language.

You recognized the error. That's better than a lot of native English speakers would do.


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## PanamaJack

Tundra,
Sorry to hear about what happened. Hope you have been able to get things rolling at the embassy and what have you. I skimmed through some posts, but not in detail. I am so shocked that happened to you. Will you be able to make things securer without making it look aesthestically horrible? Some places just do not allow for security over beauty, but I hope you can work things out in the regard. BUT whatever you do, make security a priority. Good LUCK!!


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## TundraGreen

PanamaJack said:


> Will you be able to make things securer without making it look aesthestically horrible?


I don't know. For the moment I have nothing left worth stealing, Bob Dylan's definition of the ultimate freedom. I will have to think about changes for the future.


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## Hound Dog

[_QUOTE=TundraGreen;1237369]I don't know. For the moment I have nothing left worth stealing, Bob Dylan's definition of the ultimate freedom. I will have to think about changes for the future.[/QUOTE]_

TG, we regret your misfortune but for the future, here is what we suggest and , this is not to prevent theft but to warn you immediately of intruders and would-be thieves or assaultive thugs who might seek to harm you physically so you and your hired assistants can respond and retaliate:
* If you can, raise walls to make your property, which should be unassuming from the street, invisible from the street and modest in appearance.
* Install a motion and heat sensitive alarm sytem constantly monitored by a third party alarm company that can be depended upon to respond if some creeps invade your poperty when you are there or in your absence.
* Never, ever, in the future, no matter your security measures, congregate important papers in one obvious spot but always - even for 15 minutes - disperse and hide those papers and money all about the property in places not obvious to theives. These guys are smart and will outthink you all the time. Be clever. 
* At Lake Chapala, when we go walking on the beach with our dogs for even an hour or go shopping in the neighborhood for even 15 minutes - we always set the burglar alarm and this is no joke as you found out. Cholos in our neighborhood of Six Corners have lookouts you will never see and the minute you leave your house, especially with a pattern of comings and goings, they will be in and out of your place faster than you can even imagine. 

Some moron earlier on this another thread made fun of people who depend on walls and wires and alarm systems for protection but I´ll tell you this from experience. If some creeps come into my neighbohood seeking easy access to a house for invasion and my house has a warning sign indicating a monitored alarm system and yours does not, they´re going to go for your place at all times - I promise you that. Thank those of you who are indifferent for your indifference because you are part of my protective strategy.


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## Hound Dog

Concerning my post above where I stated that "some moron" had made fun of people for depending on security measures, that comment did not refer to anyone posting on this thread and was a poor choice of words. This was a useful discussion and I regret any misunderstanding my post may have caused.


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## AlanMexicali

Hound Dog said:


> Concerning my post above where I stated that "some moron" had made fun of people for depending on security measures, that comment did not refer to anyone posting on this thread and was a poor choice of words. This was a useful discussion and I regret any misunderstanding my post may have caused.


I don´t understand why some people prefer to ignore or not believe other people´s experience in Mexico for the simple reason they seem to want to believe there is no difference between actually living here and owning property here than there is where they lived in the US or Canada. 

Maybe it has something to do with not wanting to adapt to a new environment and keeping their old learned values in place. I don´t understand the reasoning behind this way to live here and really did not feel it is at all a good thing to do.

It only causes frustration and alienation and some in Chapala are very guilty of this type of non conforming to the Mexico that is now evolved to this state and seems to cause them endless trouble, according to their posts on another web board. I don´t yet know if it bigotry or old age. Appears to be both.


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## Hound Dog

Having a stranger coming uninvited in your house has an interesting effect on you. It makes you feel insecure in your own house so even if you do not have anything of value to lose you just do not feel comfortable with the idea it could happen again.
A friend of mine in Hawaii was burglarized, the dog was killed with a 2x4 and a knife was left on her bed.
I know she spent many nights awake wondering if the knife had just been forgotten or if it was a warning. This kind of experience changes you whether you want it to or not. 
She still does not have an alarm because she is very fatalistic and what wil happen will happen but I know that in her place I would have had an alarm the next day. It all depends on the person.


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## Isla Verde

Hound Dog said:


> Concerning my post above where I stated that "some moron" had made fun of people for depending on security measures, that comment did not refer to anyone posting on this thread and was a poor choice of words. This was a useful discussion and I regret any misunderstanding my post may have caused.


Thanks for the clarification, Hound Dog, and the apology.


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## surfrider

*Not a Mexico problem*

I firmly believe that the security issue is not a "Mexico" problem but a situation of awareness about the realities of the times that we are living in.

I do not think that Mexicans will steal and harm people any more than in people will in the States. However, here in Mexico we are allowed to put up walls and bars where as in most places in the US you can not do so. I consider that to be a freedom that we have by living here in Mexico.

Maybe some of us come here and see a small tiny village and think that represents safety. They feel safer because it is not Washington DC crime looking. But people are people and when you have and they have not - the desire to "take" often times comes into play.

Lakeside had - what was it - 39 people found without heads? Well that was horrible and I was living there at the time. But any of you heard about parents in the states that sent their kids to school only to be shot up and killed?

Violence is in every country in the world and has been a condition of man since Cain and Able. The truly good thing that I see about Mexico is that we do have the right and the freedom to protect ourselves in a non-violent manner such as walls etc.

Yes I also find this post (even tho I started it) a bit uncomfortable reading about these problems. But I feel that it is also very informative to people in the respect that the realities of crime need to be addressed in any location you live in.

Yes in Mexico we are expected to watch out for ourselves and the police do not always respond - if ever. But also look at how many times you have heard about 911 calls in the states being put to the side - anyone ever hear about O.J. and the 911 calls before the murder? So maybe rather than feeling a false security that the police and the security calls will protect us, we all need to assume the responsibilities as ours and look at the best possible measures available to us.

Just my thoughts on the subject and nothing more intended.


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## Hound Dog

deleted


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## citlali

The high wall custom come from Europe, Spain, Italy, Southern France Have walls, shutters or grates and it came fro way back in history , it is as much a cultural thing than a security measure. High walls do not stop anyone just slows them down sometimes. They are more for privacy than security.
We had 18 not 39 people kidnapped and decapitated at once and those were not people involved in crime they were killed because the killer had" to make a quota for Mother´s day". That is what they told the police on television.
I knew a couple of the people killed and that all thing was beyond the pale. 
Yes there is crime in the States but it is the first time in my life I actually know many of the victims. Last year a day before leaving for Chiapas our housesiter´s son was kidnapped and killed. I went to the MP with the family and took them around looking for their son and I am sorry but I have never done that in the States or anywhere in Europe.
The police routinely steals from people. On the street I live in a neighbor called to tell me the police in full uniform and with their truck were robbing her bosses´house , what should she do?? I told her "do not worry since the police is already there".
Sorry this does not happen in the States at last not at the level we see it happen here. Other friends were robbed and checked a secret spot where they kept their money and it was still there. They call the police, the police looked around and did their report and after they left the money was gone, again sorry I do not know of such incidence among my friends.
We went to the MP to ask for the cell phone of the man who had been kidnapped and first we could not talk to anyone because the MP were busy receiving their Christmas present from the outgoing Pan guys and then they told the family it was their job to do that..and so on ,I could go on and on
Sorry this is not happenig in the States or in Europe. Crime and corruption here are out of control.
Yes there is lots of violence in the States but it is nothing like here and at least some of the bad guys are caught and locked up.


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## citlali

boy Isla Verde you are a quick draw!


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## Isla Verde

citlali said:


> boy Isla Verde you are a quick draw!


Thanks! And I really agree with your post about insecurity and violence in Mexico. I find it odd that when these serious problems are mentioned here (and elsewhere on the internet and out in the so-called real world), there are those who immediately respond with the comment that things are just as bad elsewhere, especially in the US. It's just not the case, as you pointed out in your post. And it's a poor exercise in logic to say so.


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## citlali

I love the people saying well in Chicago or Los Angeles or some other big city, "crime is just as bad". We live in a village not a large city .Everyone knows everyone in the Mexican population, they have grown up together and gone to school together and many people are realted and still we have that type of violence..


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## AlanMexicali

Isla Verde said:


> Thanks! And I really agree with your post about insecurity and violence in Mexico. I find it odd that when these serious problems are mentioned here (and elsewhere on the internet and out in the so-called real world), there are those who immediately respond with the comment that things are just as bad elsewhere, especially in the US. It's just not the case, as you pointed out in your post. And it's a poor exercise in logic to say so.


In 2004 there was a London Times investigative reporter, famous, and did all the wars since Vietnam, who spent 6 months in Sinaloa undercover as a geologist searching for minerals. His 12 episodes in the London Times I read several pages long series on what he saw and heard was unbelievable and still to this day I wouldn't be travelling the backwoods in Mexico for any reason. 

The part about kidnapping 14 or 15 year old girls and forcing them to marry a clan member and then the other clan trying to get her back was very disturbing, and seemed to happen a lot there.


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## surfrider

citlali said:


> The high wall custom come from Europe, Spain, Italy, Southern France Have walls, shutters or grates and it came fro way back in history , it is as much a cultural thing than a security measure. High walls do not stop anyone just slows them down sometimes. They are more for privacy than security.
> We had 18 not 39 people kidnapped and decapitated at once and those were not people involved in crime they were killed because the killer had" to make a quota for Mother´s day". That is what they told the police on television.
> I knew a couple of the people killed and that all thing was beyond the pale.
> Yes there is crime in the States but it is the first time in my life I actually know many of the victims. Last year a day before leaving for Chiapas our housesiter´s son was kidnapped and killed. I went to the MP with the family and took them around looking for their son and I am sorry but I have never done that in the States or anywhere in Europe.
> The police routinely steals from people. On the street I live in a neighbor called to tell me the police in full uniform and with their truck were robbing her bosses´house , what should she do?? I told her "do not worry since the police is already there".
> Sorry this does not happen in the States at last not at the level we see it happen here. Other friends were robbed and checked a secret spot where they kept their money and it was still there. They call the police, the police looked around and did their report and after they left the money was gone, again sorry I do not know of such incidence among my friends.
> We went to the MP to ask for the cell phone of the man who had been kidnapped and first we could not talk to anyone because the MP were busy receiving their Christmas present from the outgoing Pan guys and then they told the family it was their job to do that..and so on ,I could go on and on
> Sorry this is not happenig in the States or in Europe. Crime and corruption here are out of control.
> Yes there is lots of violence in the States but it is nothing like here and at least some of the bad guys are caught and locked up.


I knew Nicole - she grew up not far from where I lived and I went to college with oj. A relative of mine that was killed in the school shootings in Colorado. I also had a gun put to my head in California. A girl friend of mine had her husband killed in front of her and then she was raped in California. I also knew one of the kids that was killed in Ajijic. I have been personally knowledgeable about crime in the states and somewhat in Mexico. You can call it poor logic if you wish because I see that there is crime in the states as well as here. I am not indicating that crime is not serious in either place. I personally think that it is out of control in both places. But as I said - that is just my personal thoughts on the subject.


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## citlali

I did not say the States was crime free and I also said that the majority of the crimes are commited in the large cities. 
My husband ended up on the floor with a machine gun on his head, I worked in East LA and Richmond Ca and Newyork in a warehouse district, my husband worked in Oakland we have not lived in a buble but most of these crimes happen in big cities in the US not in villages. 

OJ and Nicole are a different issue. domestic crime happens everywhere at all level of society. 
I lived in the Marina in San Francisco at one time and my neighbor who live is a large house below my apartment would beat his wife on a regular basis and I know of three women among all the indigenous women I know who have not been beaten up . Unfortunately domestic violence is a world wide fact.
The violence in the US seems more random and there seem to be some really disturbed individuals but sorry the level of violence here is way worst and goes unpunished most of the time.


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## Joycee

In deed, the fact that the crimes go unpunished most of the time in Mexico and that the perpetrators are often aided and abetted by the police, are significant differences than what happens in the US.


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## mickisue1

One of the issues about small town crime in the US is that it tends to be covered up, because people don't want to believe it.

The little boy who was abducted and held in an underground bunker, after he was dragged off the school bus got coverage--but never higher than page 6. This was after the man who took him shot the bus driver point blank, because he wouldn't hand over two boys, as the man demanded.

I followed the story, because I searched for it, after happening on it the first day. I never saw it get big coverage, of course.

I don't know what goes on in other small towns. The biggest difference that I can see between the US and MX is that small town crime in MX is drug-driven. The families held hostage, and killed, one by one, are more random, in the US.


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## Longford

mickisue1 said:


> The biggest difference that I can see between the US and MX is that small town crime in MX is drug-driven. The families held hostage, and killed, one by one, are more random, in the US.


Small town residents throughout Mexico have, from what I'm recalling, generally policed themselves, acting as judge, jury and sometimes executioner ... because of the high level of ineptness and corruption in Mexican law enforcement and the judiciary. The cartels, the terrorism and the war have ramped-up the violence, for sure. But there seems to be a substantial amount of "randomness" to the butchery taking place in so many parts of Mexico. Many innocent people have been murdered. Wrong place at the wrong time. Mistaken identities. Some of this reminds me of the many lives being lost due to random drive-by gang shootings on the South Side of Chicago. Innocent people.


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## Salto_jorge

A 20 ft wall with electric wires does the job. 
We have 1/8 inch plate steel on out cochera gate !


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## AlanMexicali

*Interesting note.*

I had a family that I visited on the weekends and the divorced mom had a house in a pueblo 2 klms from the last residencia in suburbia in Mexicali. This pueblo at the time had no paved streets and many streets without sewer. They had an outhouse. There were many neighbors they hung out with. A very poor pueblo but a few nice houses on large lots.

There were breakins in a few of the poor houses. It appears the place was a mini society and everyone knew everyone.

People gossiped a lot and I would see neighbors chatting when walking by each others yards or having coffee and sweet bread inside together. Many breakins were speculated to be revenge against someone living there most of the time. A dumped boyfriend or a person who was handed over to the police for selling drugs to the local kids openingly. A thief who was beaten by locals for stealing things from neighbors and got caught and hit those peoples house later, sometimes a year or so later etc. Sometimes just food was taken but they broke the door or window. Almost all the houses had chain link or post and wire fences only but most locked the gates with a padlock.


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## chicaperdida

Ok.... this thread has me really freaked out now. The town I was born and raised in in the U.S. has always been in the top 5 safest cities in the U.S. I've never had to think of something like this and am not happy about doing so now. I don't really care about my stuff, but the thought of someone hurting my dogs to get my stuff really scares me. *eek2*

My husband has always said Chiapas is very safe. Is he just thinking too highly of his homeland or is out in smaller rural towns safer than San Cristobal? Or is he comparing it too much with his time lived in Mexico City?


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## kito1

I don't know about Chiapas but my experiences so far in Latin America is that dogs are not valued the way we do. Dogs are often poisoned or knocked out with a heavy metal pipe if they are in the way of a break-in. The more dogs you have, the harder they will be to bypass and more of a deterrent of course but 1 dog alone is a sitting duck. 

If your dogs are "guard" dogs, not pets, you might just replace them, no huge deal to you emotionally but if they are beloved pets then I would personally be very very hesitant to leave them in a yard where they could be easily killed. If they are in the house and your house is fairly secure, I would worry about them less.


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## Isla Verde

chicaperdida said:


> Ok.... this thread has me really freaked out now. The town I was born and raised in in the U.S. has always been in the top 5 safest cities in the U.S. I've never had to think of something like this and am not happy about doing so now. I don't really care about my stuff, but the thought of someone hurting my dogs to get my stuff really scares me. *eek2*
> 
> My husband has always said Chiapas is very safe. Is he just thinking too highly of his homeland or is out in smaller rural towns safer than San Cristobal? Or is he comparing it too much with his time lived in Mexico City?


One of the top 5 safest cities in the US - amazing. Well, moving to Mexico is bound to be quite a change for you, not to mention having to deal with that common bugaboo, culture shock. Have you spent any time living outside the States? Have you been to Mexico before?

Mexicans always think highly of their homeland, especially if they've been away from it for awhile. When was the last time your husband lived in Mexico? Things may have changed since then, or time and distance have given him a rose-tinted memory of the place where he grew up. Depending on where you live in Mexico City, it can be very safe. I feel safer here than I have in many places I've lived in the US.


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## OnTheRoadToMexico

Isla Verde said:


> Depending on where you live in Mexico City, it can be very safe. I feel safer here than I have in many places I've lived in the US.





chicaperdida said:


> Ok.... this thread has me really freaked out now. The town I was born and raised in in the U.S. has always been in the top 5 safest cities in the U.S. I've never had to think of something like this and am not happy about doing so now.


I have been going back and forth on this issue for weeks, so I'm glad someone else said something first.

I mostly seem to read statements like Isla's on these (and other) forums, with what feel like, to me, an almost offhand dismissal about the possibility of being broken into (by people who have actually already been broken into.)

On one hand, I've decided that perhaps I've been a bit too sheltered. Most of my adult life I have lived in rural homes in various parts of California and Washington where--get this--I never, EVER have locked my doors, not even when going on vacation. I don't even know where our front door key is. To me, that is a perfectly normal way to live.

So the thought of my home being burglarized is traumatic to me. Not only has it not ever happened to me in my life, but I also never have to "be constantly aware of" my surroundings while in my own town, although I am still careful while in public places like airports.

(Since I know at least one person will ask me why the hell I want to move to Mexico, then, here is my answer: For the climate; for the higher standard of living my meager retirement will get me there--not to mention much more humane and attentive health care--and _especially _for the human warmth and instant community that is a hallmark of Latin American cultures. Those are my three highest priorities at this time in my life.)

So, maybe I've lived an exceptionally sheltered life in the US. On the other hand, I can't imagine feeling as blasé about having my home broken into as some of the people sound like on the forums, or having to live behind razor wire topped fences (while still also having to worry about then being broken into_ from the roof_) to try to feel secure in my own home.

Yes, there is a question here (or three): Do those of you who've been broken into really not _care_? Are there any people on these forums who have _never _been broken into? Are home break-ins by people who often live in your own neighborhood, with lookouts just waiting for you to leave, a city thing that can be avoided by living rurally?

I've never gotten that impression about Mexico--that there is ANYWHERE safe from the threat of a break-in--but that is how I apparently have avoided having this experience here in the US in my lifetime; I've never been a city-dweller. But I'm not sure I want to continue living rurally once in Mexico just to avoid the possibility of a break-in (were that possible). I also don't want to live in an expat haven, which I suppose would help avoid some break-ins.

And how do so many of you manage to still feel safe in your own towns/homes, even while you know of break-ins all around you?


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## RVGRINGO

We have never been broken into here in Mexico, in the USA or in several other countries. We hope it stays that way, after more than a decade in Mexico. We do not live in fear or a state of worry.
Some of these postings may be by folks who have zilch for security, live in poor neighborhoods or just look and act like victims; and so they become victims. We know a few like that, and they have been broken into and cleaned out as much as three times. Are they slow learners, or careless? Who knows. Only the burglars know.


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## Isla Verde

Originally Posted by Isla Verde:
Depending on where you live in Mexico City, it can be very safe. I feel safer here than I have in many places I've lived in the US.



OnTheRoadToMexico said:


> I have been going back and forth on this issue for weeks, so I'm glad someone else said something first.
> 
> I mostly seem to read statements like Isla's on these (and other) forums, with what feel like, to me, an almost offhand dismissal about the possibility of being broken into (by people who have actually already been broken into.)


In defense of my above post, I didn't mean to imply that I discount the possibility of having my apartment being broken into or would take it lightly. Feeling safe here doesn't mean that I don't lock my door when I leave my apartment, even to go up to the roof to hang clothes, or that I would dream of buzzing someone I don't know into my building. But generally speaking, I don't live in fear and feel safe at home, on the street, and taking public transportation and taxis to get around the city. Of course, I've lived all of my life in large and very large cities (Milwaukee, Boston, Philadelphia, and New York in the US and London, Madrid, and Barcelona in Europe), so what feels safe to me might not feel safe to you .









[/quote]


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## chicaperdida

Isla Verde said:


> One of the top 5 safest cities in the US - amazing. Well, moving to Mexico is bound to be quite a change for you, not to mention having to deal with that common bugaboo, culture shock. Have you spent any time living outside the States? Have you been to Mexico before?
> 
> Mexicans always think highly of their homeland, especially if they've been away from it for awhile. When was the last time your husband lived in Mexico? Things may have changed since then, or time and distance have given him a rose-tinted memory of the place where he grew up. Depending on where you live in Mexico City, it can be very safe. I feel safer here than I have in many places I've lived in the US.


I haven't lived outside the U.S., but I have travelled. I've been around the U.S., Canada, a few different places in Mexico, Jamaica and the Bahamas. My husband has lived in the U.S. for 10 years. He does still have family in Chiapas, in fact 3/4 of his neighbourhood is made up of immediate relatives. His mom is currently living in the house we will be living in. I asked this morning and he said his family has never had any break-ins. 

He must have lived in a not so great area of Mexico city. I am also assuming He didn't hang out in the most savory of places from the stories he's told and the scars he bears from getting mugged.


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## Isla Verde

chicaperdida said:


> He must have lived in a not so great area of Mexico city. I am also assuming He didn't hang out in the most savory of places from the stories he's told and the scars he bears from getting mugged.



Indeed!


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## citlali

Where is your husband from in Chiapas? I feel safer in San Cristobal in our neighborhood than I do in Jalisco for a very simple reason: I live in an area where all the houses are touching each other, we have patios ut no large yeards, all the neighbors watch out for each other and they all know each other and they all know who belongs on the street and who does not. They also have a bell with a button in their houses and if there is any problem everyone comes out and goes after whomever is the suspect. At first a couple of thieves were caught but now it is very calm and we have not had to get up in the middle of the night for a couple of years..
If you live in a neighborhood were all the neighbors know each other it is pretty safe and I would not worry about living there. Very often I am there alone and I feel very safe. All the doors have heavy shutters that lock from the inside so good luck about getting in...

On the other had a friend of mine´s mother was assaulted and raped and she lives way out in the country..I am not sure the country is safer than the cities, it all depends what the criminals are up to.


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## sparks

My two break in's were when living in rentals .... and the security is as good as your landlord chooses unless you want to spend money on a rental. I did spring for a strong gate in front of a wooden door on one. The other issue was living in a beach tourist area, houses next door may not be occupied for months allowing entrance from an adjoining wall.

Now I have my own house and it's as secure as I want it. I know all my neighbors. If I head north friends move into my place


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## citlali

I saw on another thread that you are moving to Tonala. We go to the beach down there and Tonala strikes me as very safe especially if you know all your neighbors..


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## sparks

citlali said:


> I saw on another thread that you are moving to Tonala. We go to the beach down there and Tonala strikes me as very safe especially if you know all your neighbors..


Hard to tell who you are talking to .... but I live here, not moving


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## GARYJ65

chicaperdida said:


> Ok.... this thread has me really freaked out now. The town I was born and raised in in the U.S. has always been in the top 5 safest cities in the U.S. I've never had to think of something like this and am not happy about doing so now. I don't really care about my stuff, but the thought of someone hurting my dogs to get my stuff really scares me. *eek2*
> 
> My husband has always said Chiapas is very safe. Is he just thinking too highly of his homeland or is out in smaller rural towns safer than San Cristobal? Or is he comparing it too much with his time lived in Mexico City?


Chiapas is the 4th safest state in Mexico

Yucatan
Queretaro
Baja California Sur
Chiapas


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## GARYJ65

kito1 said:


> I don't know about Chiapas but my experiences so far in Latin America is that dogs are not valued the way we do. Dogs are often poisoned or knocked out with a heavy metal pipe if they are in the way of a break-in. The more dogs you have, the harder they will be to bypass and more of a deterrent of course but 1 dog alone is a sitting duck.
> 
> If your dogs are "guard" dogs, not pets, you might just replace them, no huge deal to you emotionally but if they are beloved pets then I would personally be very very hesitant to leave them in a yard where they could be easily killed. If they are in the house and your house is fairly secure, I would worry about them less.


I don't know if dogs are not valued in Mexico the way you do, I don't know where you are from.
People in Mexico do not spend as much money in pets as they do in the USA, but we care about our pets very much

When a burglar is doing their stuff, they get rid of animals or people in many various bad ways.

If you have many many dogs, it's not as deterrent but a barrier. One dog or even a beware of the dog sign is a deterrent


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## ElPaso2012

diablita said:


> Sorry but I find this thread a bit disconcerting. If you are so worried about your safety and security that you need an electric fence or other such measures why come here in the first place. I live a few miles outside of Acapulco, supposedly one of the most dangerous in the world and have never had a problem, break in, theft, whatever and have been here 16 years. I socialize with my neighbors, help folks in the neighborhood when I can, let some of the kids use my computer etc. Last week I accompanied a friend to the "clausura" for her 5 yr. old son's kindergarten class and went to a party for a friend's granddaughter's first communion. In other words, I don't hide behind a brick wall worrying that someone might steal my stuff. Just sayin......


I tend to agree with the general philosophy expressed here, having maintained an apartment for five years is what is reputed to be The City of Death and arguably the most dangerous city in Mexico, namely Ciudad Juarez. Both of my apartments were in working class Mexican neighborhoods, and I was the only ****** in sight in both neighborhoods. I never had a problem, even though I brought in computers, cameras, surround sound, etc. 

When I think of a nine foot wall with razor wire circling around on top the first thing I see is a couple of guys with a ladder and a big thick piece of carpet to lay over the razor wire. The very presence of elaborate security sends a message that lots of goodies are to be found inside. Security through obscurity is more effective in Mexico. 

I also like the poster's attitude towards the neighbors. Believe it or not, it's possible to make friends even if you speak idiot Spanish like I do. They will look out for you and your place. Also, who you let in your house is of vital importance. Put the expensive things out of sight if someone has to come in an install internet or work on something. Most important, make the right friends. Most people are burglarized by people who already know what's inside versus random selection. That's not to say burglary doesn't happen, because we all know it does. There probably is no perfect solution.

It's impossible not to understand the concern for security, but I just think the more elaborate it is the more ineffective.


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## chicaperdida

citlali said:


> I saw on another thread that you are moving to Tonala. We go to the beach down there and Tonala strikes me as very safe especially if you know all your neighbors..


I feel a little better, thanks.  You can never be 100% safe anywhere (i.e. car accidents, natural disasters) but it doesn't hurt to be aware/prepared.


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## Hound Dog

_


GARYJ65 said:



Chiapas is the 4th safest state in Mexico

Yucatan
Queretaro
Baja California Sur
Chiapas

Click to expand...

_
Appeances are deceiving. I live in Chiapas. You live in Queretaro. Stick to your home ground and always read statistics wiith skepicism. Chiapas is an extremely violent place, It´s just that the people who are violated and killed are not considered important.


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## GARYJ65

Hound Dog said:


> Appeances are deceiving. I live in Chiapas. You live in Queretaro. Stick to your home ground and always read statistics wiith skepicism. Chiapas is an extremely violent place, It´s just that the people who are violated and killed are not considered important.


Wow
I really thought it could be a safe place


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## citlali

Yes Chiapas has a lot of violence against women and a lot of it comes from alcoholism and poverty, it also has violence in land disputes, politics and religion especially amongst indigenous and there is awful violence against migrants from Central America. 
I suspect that a lot of that type of violence does not make the general violence meter but as far as a foreigner moving to a town, it is very safe .


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## kito1

GARYJ65 said:


> I don't know if dogs are not valued in Mexico the way you do, I don't know where you are from.
> People in Mexico do not spend as much money in pets as they do in the USA, but we care about our pets very much
> 
> When a burglar is doing their stuff, they get rid of animals or people in many various bad ways.
> 
> If you have many many dogs, it's not as deterrent but a barrier. One dog or even a beware of the dog sign is a deterrent



I am from the USA and we have people here who abuse animals, people who tolerate animals, those who have beloved pets, and those who put their pets above people. I fall somewhere between 3 and 4. My dog is certainly more valuable, in my eyes, than some people I have met.... 

I would pretty much do anything for my little guy as I consider him like my kid. If I had kids I might feel differently, but I don't so he takes their place. I would face down a robber with a gun in a heartbeat if he tried to take my dog, and if fact this did happen and I did fight not to give him up with a guy pointing a gun at me in Guatemala, which is why I ended up leaving Guatemala. My entire moving to Mexico has been planned around how best to travel to avoid problems with my dog in transit... LOL 

How much money one spends on their pets has more to do with how much disposable income one has rather than how much one loves their pets. I have known many people who have lots of money and spend lots of it on their dogs but at the same time the pets are more ornamental than loved, then other people may not have much money but their dogs are very much loved and they do the best they can for their dogs within their means.

I have not spent enough time in Mexico to make a judgement as to how much people value animals there. I will say that when I was in Queretaro last October and November I saw many many people in centro with their pets and the dogs seemed very well taken care of. Many even wore costumes for Day of the Dead! It was quite adorable and I got a lot of great pictures...

I do hope to find that in Mexico pets are more valued that in so many places I have been in Latin America.


*************
AS for burglars, they could steal everything that I own, take it all, but just leave my dog alone.


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## GARYJ65

kito1 said:


> I am from the USA and we have people here who abuse animals, people who tolerate animals, those who have beloved pets, and those who put their pets above people. I fall somewhere between 3 and 4. My dog is certainly more valuable, in my eyes, than some people I have met....
> 
> I would pretty much do anything for my little guy as I consider him like my kid. If I had kids I might feel differently, but I don't so he takes their place. I would face down a robber with a gun in a heartbeat if he tried to take my dog, and if fact this did happen and I did fight not to give him up with a guy pointing a gun at me in Guatemala, which is why I ended up leaving Guatemala. My entire moving to Mexico has been planned around how best to travel to avoid problems with my dog in transit... LOL
> 
> How much money one spends on their pets has more to do with how much disposable income one has rather than how much one loves their pets. I have known many people who have lots of money and spend lots of it on their dogs but at the same time the pets are more ornamental than loved, then other people may not have much money but their dogs are very much loved and they do the best they can for their dogs within their means.
> 
> I have not spent enough time in Mexico to make a judgement as to how much people value animals there. I will say that when I was in Queretaro last October and November I saw many many people in centro with their pets and the dogs seemed very well taken care of. Many even wore costumes for Day of the Dead! It was quite adorable and I got a lot of great pictures...
> 
> I do hope to find that in Mexico pets are more valued that in so many places I have been in Latin America.
> 
> *************
> AS for burglars, they could steal everything that I own, take it all, but just leave my dog alone.


I hope you won't have anymore problems in Mexico, with or without dog!
I have dogs myself and I do love them, as dogs, as part of the family, by the way...I am a Veterinarian


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## kito1

I always keep in mind that my dog is a dog not a kid with fur and treat him as such, anything else would be unfair to him.... 

But, I still love him as my little fur-kid


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## OnTheRoadToMexico

ElPaso2012 said:


> The very presence of elaborate security sends a message that lots of goodies are to be found inside. Security through obscurity is more effective in Mexico.
> 
> I also like the poster's attitude towards the neighbors. Believe it or not, it's possible to make friends even if you speak idiot Spanish like I do. They will look out for you and your place. Also, who you let in your house is of vital importance. Put the expensive things out of sight if someone has to come in an install internet or work on something. Most important, make the right friends. Most people are burglarized by people who already know what's inside versus random selection.


A picture of the reason why burglary is becoming so common in a place like Ajijic is emerging to me: While the gringos may know and even watch out for each other, their homes are going to be larger, therefore farther apart. And because most times gringos are seen as "rich" by poorer Mexicans (and actually _are_, by their standards), and there's such a large concentration of them in one place, well, where would YOU go to burglarize people? And all the extra security measures are just a freaking invitation, like a neon sign.

I have to interject that I know that hiding the expensive stuff when unknown service people are going to be in your house is a good practice anywhere you live in the world, certainly not just in Mexico. (Happens in the US a decent percentage of the time, too.)



RVGRINGO said:


> We have never been broken into here in Mexico, in the USA or in several other countries.... Some of these postings may be by folks who have zilch for security, live in poor neighborhoods or just look and act like victims; and so they become victims. We know a few like that, and they have been broken into and cleaned out as much as three times. Are they slow learners, or careless? Who knows.


That certainly puts things into perspective! Thanks.


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## surfrider

When I lived in lakeside, I started to hear things like "before the ******'s came you could just walk down the middle of the street, now you will get run over", I only knew Mexicans there.

I started to get this feeling that they resented the change to the towns. That they saw it as "the invasion of "gringos". I also got the feeling that they would prefer to do with less money that the ****** brings in - than to have the gringos there. 

I saw the housekeepers resenting the fact that the gringos upped with prices of things and now they had to work in their homes to afford things for their kids.

I just started to feel that nice to ****** face was just that - a face only. Having said that, I will also add that I have stayed friends with some of the Mexicans that I knew there. But these were Mexicans that had their own computers and well educated.

In fact on the lady attorneys in town told me that she personally did not believe that the Gringos should get any benefits in Mexico. That these were for Mexicans only. Of course that is not what the law in Mexico states but she was sure not going to help me get any papers that I needed, not even a sr. card. I told her that I would prefer to use an attorney who followed the laws in the land that she worked in. 

By the time that I left, I was feeling quite a bit of resentment, not necessarily directed to or at me but just at the changes that have taken place in and around Lakeside.


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## citlali

just curious when did you arrive and when did you leave?


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## citlali

By the way I love all the great theories of why people get their home broken into but any idea why poor Mexican homes get broken into as well?


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## kito1

Because there is always someone poorer than that poor person??? or some people are just opportunistic. I was in Merida last year and left some shoes, that had begun to give me blisters sitting under a bench in the park as I walked around a few minutes barefoot to give my feet a break. Not 2 minutes later some kids saw them, grabbed them and ran off. I just shrugged my shoulders at my stupidity and went back to my hotel shoeless. 

I hope those shoes are still serving someone well


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## OnTheRoadToMexico

citlali said:


> By the way I love all the great theories of why people get their home broken into but any idea why poor Mexican homes get broken into as well?


Yeah, I've been wondering this as well. Only thing I can think of is (1) It's personal; a revenge break-in, or (2) Someone is so desperate that they have no way to even leave their neighborhood.


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## OnTheRoadToMexico

surfrider said:


> When I lived in lakeside, I started to hear things like "before the ******'s came you could just walk down the middle of the street, now you will get run over", I only knew Mexicans there.
> 
> I started to get this feeling that they resented the change to the towns. That they saw it as "the invasion of "gringos". I also got the feeling that they would prefer to do with less money that the ****** brings in - than to have the gringos there.


I understand this COMPLETELY. I can't even imagine how bitter I would be if I'd grown up in such a lovely (if polluted) place, and watched it be overrun with sometimes condescending foreigners, built up in a hurry, become so congested that just getting from one place to another was nearly impossible, and, to add insult to injury, the prices for real estate were driven up to the point that native-born citizens could no longer afford to live there.

Maybe Chapala and Ajijic are becoming another Valle de Bravo; a place where only the rich can afford to live.


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## AlanMexicali

kito1 said:


> Because there is always someone poorer than that poor person??? or some people are just opportunistic. I was in Merida last year and left some shoes, that had begun to give me blisters sitting under a bench in the park as I walked around a few minutes barefoot to give my feet a break. Not 2 minutes later some kids saw them, grabbed them and ran off. I just shrugged my shoulders at my stupidity and went back to my hotel shoeless.
> 
> I hope those shoes are still serving someone well


There is a sort of thing by many here that explains your shoes disappearing. It is if you are careless enough to do something like that it is your fault, not the thief´s fault. In other words if you are stupid and reckless you are not taking care of your stuff. 

When a few stated here that high walls and razor wire are an invitation to thieves they are out of touch completely with what constitutes being smart in Mexico in security matters. The impressive house and vehicle parked there is what attracts thieves, not security devices which make stealing more difficult. If your place is impressive it is automatically a target not the other way around.

Trying to look poor in a nice house and driving a decent car is not trying to look poor. Having proper security means you are smart and aware.

Last weekend my wife´s niece went to a concert with her brother and sister in law and another couple. She is an 18 year old student. When they took the other couple home they went in for a snack. 

She left her purse on the back seat. When they came out the back window of her brother´s car was broken and her purse was gone. Guess what the reaction was? It was by all.: "You are stupid and should pay for the window ... your fault 100% and your brother should have checked his car before leaving it parked on the street at 1AM if he knows what a "novata" you are."

See the very different attitude here and no comparison to the US or Canada.

Novato:

rookie: novato, bisoño 


freshman: estudiante de primer año, novato 


newcomer: recién llegado, novato, desconocido 


novato-Adjetivo 

new: nuevo, reciente, renovado, novato, fresco, entrante 

raw: crudo, bruto, puro, en rama, tosco, novato 

green : verde, crudo, fresco, novato, nuevo, pálido


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## AlanMexicali

rookie: rookie, rookie


freshman: freshman, novice


newcomer: newcomer, novice, unknown


rookie-Adjective

new: new, recently arrived, rookie, fresh, incoming

raw: crude, raw, pure, raw, rough, rookie

green: green, raw, fresh, novice, new, pale


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## citlali

I do not care how " poor a foreigner is trying to appear, it does not fool anyone. If someone is living their barrio without working he or she is either , "a thief , drug dealer or has money coming from somewhere"..nobody is fooled by the no car or lousy looking house so live the way you want to and protect yourself.
My maid who is as poor as a church mouse was broken into and the little cheap jewelry of her kids was stolen..someone saw her leave with her kids for the circus.. so everyone knew how poor she was and still went in there looking. if you have no protection you can get robbed just because the place is there.

No Chapala or Ajijic are not like Valle de Bravo and there is very little resentment against foreigners considering how many there are here as long as they provide jobs and help the economy and are decent people they are fine. 
There are obnoxious foreigners and nice ones and people around them know who they are just like in any other town .


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## GARYJ65

AlanMexicali said:


> There is a sort of thing by many here that explains your shoes disappearing. It is if you are careless enough to do something like that it is your fault, not the thief´s fault. In other words if you are stupid and reckless you are not taking care of your stuff.
> 
> When a few stated here that high walls and razor wire are an invitation to thieves they are out of touch completely with what constitutes being smart in Mexico in security matters. The impressive house and vehicle parked there is what attracts thieves, not security devices which make stealing more difficult. If your place is impressive it is automatically a target not the other way around.
> 
> Trying to look poor in a nice house and driving a decent car is not trying to look poor. Having proper security means you are smart and aware.
> 
> Last weekend my wife´s niece went to a concert with her brother and sister in law and another couple. She is an 18 year old student. When they took the other couple home they went in for a snack.
> 
> She left her purse on the back seat. When they came out the back window of her brother´s car was broken and her purse was gone. Guess what the reaction was? It was by all.: "You are stupid and should pay for the window ... your fault 100% and your brother should have checked his car before leaving it parked on the street at 1AM if he knows what a "novata" you are."
> 
> See the very different attitude here and no comparison to the US or Canada.
> 
> Novato:
> 
> rookie: novato, bisoño
> 
> freshman: estudiante de primer año, novato
> 
> newcomer: recién llegado, novato, desconocido
> 
> novato-Adjetivo
> 
> new: nuevo, reciente, renovado, novato, fresco, entrante
> 
> raw: crudo, bruto, puro, en rama, tosco, novato
> 
> green : verde, crudo, fresco, novato, nuevo, pálido


I would not know for sure that it is a "Mexican attitude" those things happen everywhere! I have a friend who was complaining about Mexico's security, he went to Canada and first thing he got was a broken car window and stolen possesions

In Mexico, and I try to apply this everywhere I go, all the safety meassures you know, you have to take
It's not safe to be at 1 am outside, same as in the US, you may meet with Ted Bundy or with Mataviejitas


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## Isla Verde

¿Mataviejitas? That's a new word for me.


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> ¿Mataviejitas? That's a new word for me.


It's a nickname for a mexican murderer, not so long ago, she used to kill elder ladies and that's why...


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## AlanMexicali

GARYJ65 said:


> I would not know for sure that it is a "Mexican attitude" those things happen everywhere! I have a friend who was complaining about Mexico's security, he went to Canada and first thing he got was a broken car window and stolen possesions
> 
> In Mexico, and I try to apply this everywhere I go, all the safety meassures you know, you have to take
> It's not safe to be at 1 am outside, same as in the US, you may meet with Ted Bundy or with Mataviejitas


It is not an American attitude to blame the victim for being careless all the time in all situations though. Americans seem to take security for granted and rely on police protection much more.

Where I lived in San Diego it was no problem walking around at 1AM anywhere. Maybe in south central LA yes. 

People feel safe there and maybe they shouldn´t but still do and are very unsavvy what constitutes danger as it is not the norm even in these bad economic times.


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## GARYJ65

AlanMexicali said:


> It is not an American attitude to blame the victim for being careless all the time in all situations though. Americans seem to take security for granted and rely on police protection much more.
> 
> Where I lived in San Diego it was no problem walking around at 1AM anywhere. Maybe in south central LA yes.
> 
> People feel safe there and maybe they shouldn´t but still do and are very unsavvy what constitutes danger as it is not the norm even in these bad economic times.


I have to agree with you that people in the US feel safe and they shouldn't


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> It's a nickname for a mexican murderer, not so long ago, she used to kill elder ladies and that's why...


I'm relieved that he's still not around, or I'd have to hire a _guardaespaldas_!


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> I'm relieved that he's still not around, or I'd have to hire a guardaespaldas!


Guess what, it was a she


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## Isla Verde

GARYJ65 said:


> Guess what, it was a she


Oops, missed that. I wonder why "she" went around murdering old women. Maybe some displaced hatred of her mother?


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## GARYJ65

Isla Verde said:


> Oops, missed that. I wonder why "she" went around murdering old women. Maybe some displaced hatred of her mother?


I'm not so much into the news, but as far as I know, she robbed the ladies


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## surfrider

GARYJ65 said:


> I have to agree with you that people in the US feel safe and they shouldn't


I was very politically involved in the state of California, the county supervisors in Los Angeles and Orange, of the state of Washington and with the federal government. The areas of my involvement were within the area of care and welfare for the elderly and the disabled. 

I had worked as the administrator for a major hospital in Los Angeles in the late 60's. I had worked within the social system since about the same time. Also I had my own corporation that worked for benefits for the elderly and the disabled between 2001-2010.

I left the states because of the economies, the changes within the social systems, the changes in the medical system and for more freedom in regards to safety for my disabled son. 

Maybe because I was so deeply involved in the politics and in the areas of care and welfare, I understood things in a way that others did not see or were allowed to know about. 

Yes I see Mexico as corrupt but the corruption is so up front and well known that it looks honest to me rather than the controlled and managed corruption within the states. I have just had too many private "talks" with the political people in the states to see them as anything but corrupt however good they come across on T.V. or showing their public face. 

Negotiating with these people was a very scary thing and they used every and any means to get to their goals. 

Some of the private talks that I had with Senators within the last year that I lived in the states, (2011) scared me deeply and was the main reason why I was prompted to move out of my own country. 

I see Mexico as having some real issues - but in training my son how to adapt to the safety and security methods here in Mexico has not been all that different or difficult. What I have found to be difficult is when the Mexican comes across so friendly and helpful but does not follow through on what they say they will do. Same thing would occur in the states but the Americans were not as convincing and he could see through it. It seems that it was easier for him to see the lie in American and he does not see it in Mexican. He has gotten his feelings hurt but he will learn. 

In Mexico there is not real social system and in the states there is, but I know that social system like the back of my hand and it is very dangerous. I would rather have him face life without thinking that there is help available rather than think there is help and have that help be so deceiving. That kind of corruption I think is more serious.


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## AlanMexicali

GARYJ65 said:


> I have to agree with you that people in the US feel safe and they shouldn't


I had a dueño that liked me very much and would give me hundreds of hours of overtime. One time I was taking a million CDs to a special packaging warehouse to drop off after work in South Central LA from San Diego in our 5 ton truck and exiting the freeway there blew the clutch.

I had the truck towed a mile to the warehouse. I then had it towed to a transmission shop close by.

This was a Wed. evening. I stayed in a motel waiting. The shop took until Fri. 6PM to have it replaced and told me every day soon.

I walked around Rosecrantz close to Normandy and Florence where Reginald Denny was nearly beaten to death during the 1991 LA riots for 2 and a half days. I had no fear of the place even after dark. It was 105 degrees that week. The swimming pool at the motel got boring.

I was asked for money from strangers 12 times but said I don´t have any.

I feel if you do not appear to belong there you might attract attention. If you act fearful you are possibly going to have an incident in such a rough place as this. I could care less what people perceive me as and still walk around anywhere I want, within reason, and never have had a problem, so far.


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## Longford

GARYJ65 said:


> I have to agree with you that people in the US feel safe and they shouldn't


Sounds like something which could easily be applied to expats in Mexico.


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## GARYJ65

Longford said:


> Sounds like something which could easily be applied to expats in Mexico.


Of course! Both expats and nationals


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## Marishka

GARYJ65 said:


> I have to agree with you that people in the US feel safe and they shouldn't


But people don't just live in the U.S.--they live in a particular place in the U.S. And if they live in a city, they live in a particular neighborhood. There are many places to live in the U.S. that are quite safe, so it’s natural that the residents of those places would feel safe.

I’m happy to report that although there are bad neighborhoods in the U.S. that are not safe, murders and violent crime continue to decline in the U.S.:

USA Murder Rate at Historic Record Low


> FBI preliminary 2012 data and 2013 YTD city murders show that we are on track for a 2013 murder rate that is 20% lower than in 2011. That would take the USA murder rate down to 3.8, more than 17% below the lows in 1962 and 1963.


I feel very safe in the place I have chosen to live in the U.S. I just checked online and the records only go back 14 years, but during all that time there have been ZERO homicides in this location. 

I'm used to feeling safe. I grew up in a neighborhood in the U.S. where the front doors were never locked during the day. We had no murders or violent crime there, so I felt quite safe. 

When I was a teenager, I went to school in Mayrhofen, Austria. When I first arrived at the house where I was to live, the maid took me to my room. I noticed that the lock on the door was broken. "Ja, es ist kaput," she said. The front door was always unlocked during the day, and the lock on the door to my bedroom remained in its "kaput" condition, which was really no problem because Mayrhofen was essentially an Austrian "Mayberry."

I'm not looking for that level of safety in Mexico, but I do hope I can find secure places to live in safe neighborhoods. I wouldn't care to live anywhere where I didn't feel safe.


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