# More concerns over the Spanish economy, what next....



## SunnySpain

Hiya,

Its just been on the news that 43% of all Manufacturing firms in Spain
cut jobs in the month of December 2008 - now thats a lot of jobs !

Any wanna expats thinking of gaining employment in the manufacturing sector
in Spain, maybe you might want to do have a little re-think


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## chris(madrid)

I know four cloth (clothes and curtains etc) related companies that have halved manpower - and one will shut in May if things don't improve. Basically has halved employment in the town. 

I know of two engineering companies in BCN that have moved ALL production to the Czech republic - and another moving to Romania. We're talking VERY high end CNC machinery too.

I've heard several times now that Spain and Ireland are the EU countries hardest hit.


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## jojo

Frightening isnt it - even if you dont need to work in Spain, it will affect the whole population. How is the Spanish government planning to address this problem, does anyone know?? My OH reckons that one solution is that they devalue the euro??? Altho, Germany wouldnt be keen on that??

Jo


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## SunnySpain

jojo said:


> Frightening isnt it - even if you dont need to work in Spain, it will affect the whole population. How is the Spanish government planning to address this problem, does anyone know?? My OH reckons that one solution is that they devalue the euro??? Altho, Germany wouldnt be keen on that??
> 
> Jo



Its an interesting question, not one I know the answer to though - lol

However, some have suggested Spain could well revert back to the old Pesetas as they have little control (if any) over what happens at EU level 

Many an expat would love the Euro to be devalued against the pound, but like you say Germany would not be happy about doing that

Going back to what Chris has said, I think you are right, both Ireland and Spain seem to be the European countries hardest hit, but Italy must be close also

Dave


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## chris(madrid)

SunnySpain said:


> Its an interesting question, not one I know the answer to though - lol
> 
> However, some have suggested Spain could well revert back to the old Pesetas as they have little control (if any) over what happens at EU level
> 
> Many an expat would love the Euro to be devalued against the pound, but like you say Germany would not be happy about doing that
> 
> Going back to what Chris has said, I think you are right, both Ireland and Spain seem to be the European countries hardest hit, but Italy must be close also
> 
> Dave


The High value of the Euro is currently a bit of a PITA for industries - BUT only if they sell outside the Eurozone - which is growing daily and not subject to controls as the US market is. 

There are rumours that Italy could leave the Euro. But frankly this would probably make their situation worse. imo there is far more behind the Euro than simple finance. It's far more "far reaching" - and as long as countries can stay within the expenditure guidelines I doubt many will leave.


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## chummers

Same in UK many jobs going, I am still planing to move to spain it least it cost less to live and the quality of life is better.
What work if any is there, and what would be agood business to set up.


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## jojo

chummers said:


> .... it cost less to live and the quality of life is better.
> What work if any is there, and what would be agood business to set up.


the quality of life is only better if you have enough money - Try renting here for a few months and get a feel for what its like and whether you could set up a business. I guess that depends on what business you are planning to set up???

Jo


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## SteveHall

chummers said:


> Same in UK many jobs going, I am still planing to move to spain it least it cost less to live and the quality of life is better.
> What work if any is there, and what would be agood business to set up.


*Why do you say it is cheaper to live here? *

A new laptop is 150 euros cheaper in the UK 

A daily paper is 3 times the price of the Sun in the UK

IF you get any expat food from an Iceland store here you will find them MUCH more expensive than the same Yorkshire Puds in Iceland in the UK 

Do not even get me started on the price of phone calls or internet (if you can get it) I also see Virgin offering 50 Mb in the UK, Most people in Spain would kill for 10 MB!! 

*Why do you say the quality of life is better? *

If you are not in work here, there is no cradle-to-grave welfare state and many will say that it is too hot in summer and too cold in winter. If you do not speak Spanish you can feel very isolated ..........or you will pay well over the odds. 

I am very happy here and I am going nowhere - I am sold up in Sweden/UK many years ago and this is HOME. The reality is that at least 50% of the expats I know are either going back, considering going back or would like to go back ...but can't. 


A good business? I was talking to one of the guys from the currency transfer companies this week - we joked, " A removal company to take people back"


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## SunnySpain

SteveHall said:


> *Why do you say it is cheaper to live here? *
> 
> A new laptop is 150 euros cheaper in the UK
> 
> A daily paper is 3 times the price of the Sun in the UK
> 
> IF you get any expat food from an Iceland store here you will find them MUCH more expensive than the same Yorkshire Puds in Iceland in the UK
> 
> 
> *Why do you say the quality of life is better? *
> 
> Many will say that it is too hot in summer and too cold in winter. If you do not speak Spanish you can feel very isolated ..........or you will pay well over the odds.


I ditto the above and would like to add that apart from alcohol and cigarettes very little is cheaper in Spain than the UK nowadays.

I would estimate at least 33% of all expats leaving Spain in the next 19 months or was it 18 months, pero bueno por alli


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## chris(madrid)

SteveHall said:


> *Why do you say it is cheaper to live here? *
> 
> A new laptop is 150 euros cheaper in the UK
> 
> A daily paper is 3 times the price of the Sun in the UK
> 
> IF you get any expat food from an Iceland store here you will find them MUCH more expensive than the same Yorkshire Puds in Iceland in the UK
> 
> Do not even get me started on the price of phone calls or internet (if you can get it) I also see Virgin offering 50 Mb in the UK, Most people in Spain would kill for 10 MB!!
> 
> *Why do you say the quality of life is better? *
> 
> If you are not in work here, there is no cradle-to-grave welfare state and many will say that it is too hot in summer and too cold in winter. If you do not speak Spanish you can feel very isolated ..........or you will pay well over the odds.
> 
> I am very happy here and I am going nowhere - I am sold up in Sweden/UK many years ago and this is HOME. The reality is that at least 50% of the expats I know are either going back, considering going back or would like to go back ...but can't.
> 
> 
> A good business? I was talking to one of the guys from the currency transfer companies this week - we joked, " A removal company to take people back"


All true, Steve - But there are some areas that are cheaper. 

I pay 1/6th of the rates my dad does (we've similar sized homes) - Less in heating (but partially because we light more chimneys) - Electricity about the same. Car tax - MUCH less (which with 2 cars and 3 bikes matters to me)

Quality of life, if you work can be severely reduced here ime. 

The Spanish working day is LONG unless you're lucky to be in the public service. 8 hours not including a 2 hour lunch break (which is frankly a PITA if you live far from work). Unpaid overtime "requests" are common. And forget "double time" rates if it is paid. 

Self employed - most work 12 hour days and have to deal with inventive accounting practices (180 payment settlement terms). 

The result is that most Spaniards (by that I mean working residents of Spain) have a life that is basically WAKE-COMMUTE-WORK-LUNCH-WORK-COMMUTE-SUPPER-BED during the week. Very few indulge in true hobbies ime. 

As with Steve - this is my home. My wife is Spanish which gives me a wider insight. But it is NOT the rosy picture that "a place in the sun" paints.

If you live as a SPANIARD imo, it probably is cheaper overall - but as soon as you want those UK basics that nobody here uses - it gets expensive and fast ime.

Oh - footwear here is way cheaper (for a given quality) than the UK. So is clothing imo. This said I "dress" at Decathlon.


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## crookesey

There is a saying in my neck of the woods that goes, 'If only my aunty had a what'sit she'd be my uncle, but she hasn't so she isn't'.

If only, the two most used words during times like these. 

If only, when we sold at the top of the UK market and bought at the top of the Spanish market, we had invested all of our 1.45 cents to the pound in Spain and rented until property prices came down.

If only we had budgeted to live to 70% of our actual affordibility.

If only we had stayed in the UK.

Well you are where you are, I recall past posts on this forum stating that UK problems were not Spanish problems, what say you now? The wife and I had a lucky escape by not signing up for what looked like a bargain back in October last year. We are now both much wiser than we were then, not by judgement, more by luck forced out of events.

The Euro IMHO will prove to be the worst currency that any nation has ever entered. We were in trouble in the UK but washed our dirty linen in public by virtue of a very visible fall in the value of the pound. What is a euro worth in Spain? god only knows, but not as much as it's worth in Germany, all that is happening is that Spain's dirty linen is still being piled into laundry basket after laundry basket.

We never envisaged moving to Spain involved being forced to shop in the likes of LIDL and count the cost of gas bottles and electricity etc.


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## SteveHall

crookesey said:


> There is a saying in my neck of the woods that goes, 'If only my aunty had a what'sit she'd be my uncle, but she hasn't so she isn't'.
> 
> **Great, Yorkshire expression, God's Chosen County!
> 
> If only, the two most used words during times like these.
> 
> We never envisaged moving to Spain involved being forced to shop in the likes of LIDL and count the cost of gas bottles and electricity etc.


** I did not like to say the other week "If I had to shop in Lidl I'd rather go hungry" as that was a bit too blunt (even for me!) but I know exactly what you are saying. I find myself almost embarassed by being financially very comfortable knowing that so many of many friends aren't. 

I see people's phone and internet bills every day and even on this "necessity" (it wasn't 40/10 years ago) I see people are trying everything to save 20/30 euros per month. 

Things are tough here in expatshire and much tougher than in Real Spain BUT if expats integrated and spoke fluent Spanish then life would be so much simpler. 

I was doing a budget for a new expat the other day and he was horrified that I included 100 euros per month for the first 12 months to take professional Spanish lessons but totally adamant that he had to have UK Sky TV which was going to cost OVER 1000 euros per annum! I give in sometimes.


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## SunnySpain

crookesey said:


> There is a saying in my neck of the woods that goes, 'If only my aunty had a what'sit she'd be my uncle, but she hasn't so she isn't'.
> 
> If only we had budgeted to live to 70% of our actual affordibility.
> 
> We never envisaged moving to Spain involved being forced to shop in the likes of LIDL and count the cost of gas bottles and electricity etc.


Fair enuf, but apart from the roads, what have the Romans ever done for us ?


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## jkchawner

if uk change to euro i would eat my hat after seeing the state spain is in now !


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## XTreme

SteveHall said:


> Things are tough here in expatshire and much tougher than in Real Spain BUT if expats integrated and spoke fluent Spanish then life would be so much simpler.


Word!

One thing I'd say about all of this business.....and Steve has touched on it when he mentioned _his_ circumstances.

And that's the absolute fact that if Brits didn't come over here with unreal expectations and no discernible skillbase to draw from......then fail to integrate in terms of language and culture, and remain obsessed with everything UK.....then they might, just _might_ have had a chance of making a new life for themselves. 

That's of course _if_ they were prepared to work harder than they've ever done in their lives. And really, _really_ dig deep.

However the lure of Jeremy Kyle's dysfunctional guests on a daily basis generally takes precedence over doing anything constructive. 

And as you know, expat forums are full of people looking for business ideas out here. My advice to them? Don't come! Cos unless you're bringing _something_ to the table, your time here is going to be very short.


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## SteveHall

Xtreme - you have touched on something I wrote about several years ago. In fact I was so blunt that the magazine pulled the whole article!!! 

Here is a question? 

Why do people expect to work less hard in their new "career" in a country where they do not speak the language, do not have the contacts nor the experience of "how things are", don't know the Spanish word "enchufe".................and expect to earn more than they did in their home country.

Here's another - these expats start a brand new business with no previous experience (brain-surgeon starts a pool-cleaning company, shelf-stacker starts as a window company) ...and expects to succeed immediately. Can you explain the logic? Me, I do the same as I did in the UK but work longer hours knowing that the jam is tomorrow. 

I regularly do 100 hour plus weeks and yet people wonder how I "succeed". As Jack Nicklaus is claimed to have said, "The more I practice, the luckier I get." 

I tried to organise an interview with a Finn this morning for this week. 

Today - not enough notice 
Tomorrow - 3 Kings ...... mmm, in Tampere? 
Wednesday - New Year Golf tournament 

By now I was bored, told her to call me on Thursday and if I had not filled the vacancy we'd see whether she could fit me into her diary. Her English was good enough to understand my sarcasm! Sad really, as she had a CV to die for but here it is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration AND you need to work like a professional in a world of amateurs. 

Good luck to all those who commit and to those who "give it a go" you had better start looking up the Spanish for failure. Sad but I guess you'd prefer the truth.....something that is also in poor supply in expatshire.


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## XTreme

SteveHall said:


> I regularly do 100 hour plus weeks and yet people wonder how I "succeed".


Same for me Steve! But I wouldn't change it for the world.

I always say that in Spain I work three times the hours for a third less money than I did in Britain (and I did the same job there for 20+ years)......but it's still a better life!

So on that basis, how screwed is Britain?


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## jojo

XTreme said:


> So on that basis, how screwed is Britain?



I totally agree with that!!! Which I guess is why a lot of people want to leave Britain. They see Spain as a country with lovely weather, beaches, a good few Brits, no restraints, not too far away from the "motherland" etc.... and want some of it. Its only when you get here you realise how hard it is. Telling them doesnt really help cos quite frankly Britain is sooo bad for many that they dont wanna hear.

I was like that, my OH is the sensible one and did a lot of homework and plans - none of which have happened cos of the economical crisis! But I was so desperate to move here. I didnt want ex-patfordshire, I wanted to turn my back on everything British. But I have kids, who dont feel like that and also once you get here you find you like to hear a familiar language, chat to people and you like to see a few familiar things.

I guess what I'm trying to say is we shouldnt be too hard on those that want to get away from the UK and come here looking for a better life - one way or another they'll find out what its like. We can only advise.


Jo


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## XTreme

jojo said:


> We can only advise.


Absolutely Jo! That's why I always say a nice website and a donkey are fundamental requirements here!


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## SteveHall

XTreme said:


> I always say a nice website and a donkey are fundamental requirements here!


Xtreme despite the sub-30s failing to fall for your transparent charms, what about their mothers rather than reverting to donkeys? I'll refrain from any comments on sheep and the Welsh!!!


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## XTreme

SteveHall said:


> Xtreme despite the sub-30s failing to fall for your transparent charms, what about their mothers rather than reverting to donkeys? I'll refrain from any comments on sheep and the Welsh!!!


Their mothers? Them Franco era women look a bit too weather beaten and industrial for me Steve!


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## SteveHall

A few weeks ago the object of my lust delivered a classic erectile disfunction moment, "Lovely to see you again Steve but I have to run. I've promised I'll babysit ..............the grandchildren" Oh well, it makes a change from doing my nails, adding streaks or plucking my nasal hair which I can understand are more appealing than a trip to the cinema or a meal out!


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## chris(madrid)

XTreme said:


> Their mothers? Them Franco era women look a bit too weather beaten and industrial for me Steve!


What about the pre-Franco era ones? 

- btw (he says looking over his shoulder for signs of the missus) - we've a nice biker chick in our village (nudge, nudge - wink, wink) - In her 40's but wow. Rides a little Korean chopper (now now!). Has a small business and NO website.


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## chris(madrid)

To get back on track a bit - was talking last night with one of Spains TOP IT salesmen. He has targets that rise yearly and that make your nosebleed and has hit them at 105-110% every year since I've know him (15years). He expects a staged reduction in his company (one of ITs top 5) of over 50% this year. These are the 6000/month or more type IT jobs.

He's been mentioning for the last 5-6 years that his branch of IT (and where I was happy to work as Country Service Manager during the Golden Age) is not much fun any more and is praying for forced early retirement/redundancy. When this type of IT co starts to target revenue winners - then it's TOUGH. 

His equivalents in other top 10 are all calling everybody on their contact list looking for even whispers of work.


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## XTreme

chris(madrid) said:


> - btw (he says looking over his shoulder for signs of the missus) - we've a nice biker chick in our village (nudge, nudge - wink, wink) - In her 40's but wow. Rides a little Korean chopper (now now!). Has a small business and NO website.


She needs my input by the sound of it Chris!


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## SteveHall

XTreme said:


> She needs my input by the sound of it Chris!


Xtreme - you KNOW the rules. You are looking for sub-30


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## XTreme

SteveHall said:


> Xtreme - you KNOW the rules. You are looking for sub-30


I know Steve......but is it morally right of me to exclude the fit over 30's?

Some of those could be well due for the Celtic Genetic Jackhammer!


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## chris(madrid)

XTreme said:


> She needs my input by the sound of it Chris!


Aha - BUT she likes Harleys! ->Gotcha!


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## SteveHall

chris(madrid) said:


> Aha - BUT she likes Harleys! ->Gotcha!


Which by Xtreme's logic makes her a lesbian!


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## XTreme

SteveHall said:


> Which by Xtreme's logic makes her a lesbian!


Damn right Steve! She probably watches the NASCAR channel and lives in a trailer as well!


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## jojo

Back to topic for a mo, has anyone noticed that the exchange rate is creeping up again - not by much, but it is showing positive signs - well for those of us paid in sterling anyway. My OH is convinced that in the not too distant future things are gonna be really bad for the eurozone - I didnt understand him - summat about the chinese and the US dollar??????????? 

Jo


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## SteveHall

JoJo why would we stay on topic? Xtreme's dillsuional rants are so much more exciting! 

Seriously yes, good news if you are paid in GBP or looking to buy here and bad news if you are selling up here and going back to the UK. 

I am now convinced that NOBODY knows what they are talking about (especially the banks) and I just paddle my own canoe and make my own decisions! 

I got a cheque returned from an English client. It was stamped in red "Insufficient Funds - Please Represent" I was not sure whether they were talking about xyz ltd or Barclays Bank - a sign of the times! I think I trust my client will pay me somehow. I have less faith in a UK bank!


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## thrax

In a recent edition of Have I Got News For You, Noddy Holder asked the question, "What happened to all the money the banks have lost. Where did it all go?" Nobody knew the answer, so he then asked "Well if the Government are going to lend them billions, where is all this money coming from?" Again, nobody knew. So he said, "So if nobody knows where it all went and where its all coming from, what are we worried about?" Got to say I agree with him......


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## SunnySpain

jojo said:


> Back to topic for a mo, has anyone noticed that the exchange rate is creeping up again - not by much, but it is showing positive signs - well for those of us paid in sterling anyway. My OH is convinced that in the not too distant future things are gonna be really bad for the eurozone - I didnt understand him - summat about the chinese and the US dollar???????????
> 
> Jo



Tis true that the Euro has been devalued somewhat in the last few days, but this is essentially due to growing expectation that interest rates are going to be cut in the Eurozone later this week.

If it happens and I think it will, then a further interest rate cut in February could result in the pound regaining much of whta it lost against the Euro prior to xmas

Here's hoping anyway....


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## SteveHall

I believe you SunnySpain ...just as much as I believe Noddy Holder, Dave Hill, my bank manager, my accountant and the Bloke in the Bar. 

I guess if anybody KNEW they could make billions!! 

Good luck to us all however we invest


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## XTreme

SteveHall said:


> Xtreme's dillsuional rants are so much more exciting!


Damn right Steve! 

Did I tell you any of my legendary dog rescuing stories?

I was the animal ladies pinup on British Expats until that megalomaniac Stravinsky banned me!


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## SteveHall

No, I have not had the pleasure of this - are we taking about our canine friends or some of your beer-bellied, greasy haired, tattooed sub-30 objects of desire? 

In the spirit of the New Year and "por la crisis" I am sure Stravinsky will allow you to recount these stories again ......and then ban you! 

(You could then always start your own forum and talk to yourself. Know anybody who could build a web-site? There are a lot of ex-estate agents, plumbers, brickies and aircon guys who are now miraculously gurus. Strange, last week they though "flash" was something you cleaned the bath with and html was something the wife got from the farmacia)


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## chris(madrid)

DOOM & GLOOM

Well Unemployment rose 50% in Madrid (generally less affected than most of Spain) - during 2008 - Unemployment now at 3,100,000. Saw a VERY interesting interview this AM that suggests that TAXATION is set to rise in Spain. My guess is VAT.


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## SteveHall

Yes, Chris. This is getting serious. 


-- Unemployment soars above three million 
By: thinkSPAIN , Friday, January 9, 2009 


Unemployment rose by 139,694 (+4.67%) last month to close the year at 3,123,963, the highest total since recording methods changed in January 1996. 

During the year, the total rose by nearly a million (+999,416), representing an increase of 46.93%. 

Hardest hit again last month was the crippled construction sector (+70,701, +13.6%), followed by services (+46,471, +2.69%), and industry (+27,725, +7.45%). 

Male unemployment rose during the month by 8.89% (+128,687) to 1,576,467 while female unemployment rose 0.71% (+11,007) to 1,552,496. 

Taking last year as a whole, male unemployment rose by 78.1% (+691,328) while female unemployment rose by 308,088 (+24.76%). 

Unemployment among Spain's immigrant population rose by 93.88% (+198,996) last year to reach 410,960. 

By region, the Valencian Community led the way (+24,837) last month followed by Cataluña (+20,396). 

Commenting on the situation at the end of November, Employment and Immigration minister, Celestino Corbacho, estimated that unemployment would continue rising from around 11.3% to reach 12.5% of the total working population during the first quarter of 2009, possibly soaring to as high as 17-18% (above four million) by the end of the 2009. 

According to EUROSTAT estimates produced at the end of November, at 13.4% of the total working population, Spain's unemployment rate is already the highest and fastest growing in the whole of Europe.


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## crookesey

jojo said:


> Back to topic for a mo, has anyone noticed that the exchange rate is creeping up again - not by much, but it is showing positive signs - well for those of us paid in sterling anyway. My OH is convinced that in the not too distant future things are gonna be really bad for the eurozone - I didnt understand him - summat about the chinese and the US dollar???????????
> 
> Jo


The problem is Jo, they don't know where the problem is, they know that there is one but can't find it. I suppose if they worked out what percentage of Euros in circulation were issued by each member nation and then apportioned each nations indebtedness to the individual figures they might start to see daylight.
I've mentioned this before, why do Germans dislike holding on to none German printed Euros any longer than they have to?  

You will be fine, the pound will strengthen against the pound, UK property prices will start to recover whilst Spain's property prices fall into a pit of despair. You rent in Spain so values are not a concern to you, and you might just pick up a bargain when things go from bad to worse. Get ready for the inevitable return of the Peseta, and with it Spain's ability to value it as they so desire.


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## jojo

My other half is mildly excited about something thats due to happen on 15th Feb?????? 

I'm not sure it will practical or possible for spain to return to the pesata - it certainly wont be an "overnight" thing and that'll cause a host of new problems and issues!!! 

But with so many member states all needing and wanting different things and having different assets, a single currency doesnt really seem a very sensible idea - but then I wonder why anyone thought it ever was?? That said, its probably helped european trading??? 



Jo


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## SunnySpain

jojo said:


> My other half is mildly excited about something thats due to happen on 15th Feb??????
> 
> Jo



15th Feb you say, whats that all about then ? - lol

Best news today was the Pound is now worth 1.12 Euros

How about 1 pound = 1.50 Euros by May 2009


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## XTreme

jojo said:


> My other half is mildly excited about something thats due to happen on 15th Feb??????


The French Maids outfit you ordered is going to be delivered Jo?


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## Stravinsky

SunnySpain said:


> 15th Feb you say, whats that all about then ? - lol
> 
> Best news today was the Pound is now worth 1.12 Euros
> 
> How about 1 pound = 1.50 Euros by May 2009


Have you been taking drugs


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## jojo

XTreme said:


> The French Maids outfit you ordered is going to be delivered Jo?


LOL - If thats it, then I hope theres a french maid in it - now she'd save me a lot of extra work..... in more ways than one!!!!!!!!

The 15th feb is summat to do with a Eurozone meeting I think???? Germany???? Interest rate??? I dunno, he phones me on his mobile and I cant hear half of what he rambles on about!!?

Jo


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## crookesey

I have been thinking (OK settle down you lot, it does happen occasionally), it's all about not being able to see the money. Bear with me please, we were all happy when our homes were worth a lot more than we paid for them (probably still are in most cases), when our pension funds and investments were showing very healthy growth (given time they will recover), but there wasn't any actual money to see.

Mythical falling house prices when we had no intention of selling has not actually seen any money disappear, neither has equity falls in funds that we had no intention of calling on in the very near future. Only two factors apply in the financial world, they are greed and fear, and at the moment the whole world is frightened.

The Spanish construction industry is on it's knees, but there would have been a cessation to the mass building projects anyway. UK building sites are fenced off and devoid of any activity to, and we have a housing shortage. Brits were happy to pay over the odds for their Spanish holiday/future retirement home on the back of the ever increasing value of their UK property. They now even refuse to holiday in Spain because of the value of the pound against the euro, even when what they spend their money on is still cheaper in Spain than it is in the UK, the fear element is at play.


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## JAGUAR

Wise thoughts there crookesey. The media seems to add /subtract these fears depending how charitable they feel. 
It sells newspapers though


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## thrax

Every now and then, I've noticed, crookesey says wise things - in spite of his name. I agree with Jaguar - the media, including the BBC - are hugely responsible for the spreading of doom and gloom, focussing on bad news stories and ignoring, for the most part, those little snippets of good news that are still out there. Ever the optimist, that's me....


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## jojo

thrax said:


> Every now and then, I've noticed, crookesey says wise things - in spite of his name. I agree with Jaguar - the media, including the BBC - are hugely responsible for the spreading of doom and gloom, focussing on bad news stories and ignoring, for the most part, those little snippets of good news that are still out there. Ever the optimist, that's me....



I toally agree about the media - they've caused most of the damage in my opinion!!!

Jo x


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## SteveHall

jojo said:


> I toally agree about the media - they've caused most of the damage in my opinion!!!
> 
> Jo x


I blame Thatcher


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## crookesey

thrax said:


> Every now and then, I've noticed, crookesey says wise things - in spite of his name. I agree with Jaguar - the media, including the BBC - are hugely responsible for the spreading of doom and gloom, focussing on bad news stories and ignoring, for the most part, those little snippets of good news that are still out there. Ever the optimist, that's me....


Surely not as often as 'now and again'. 

A top name crookesey, proper Yorkshire name, not like your southern Tristen's and Farquhar's. Even mentioned in the ever popular 'Stirrings in Sheffield on Saturday Night'. 

So there, you had no idea of the company that you are mixing with.


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## thrax

It's true, it's true (words immortalised by Madeleine Khan in Blazing Saddles - though pronounced it's twu, it's twu) and clearly I am not worthy to be in such company. I beg your forgiveness and promise to buy you a tinto de verano next time you successfully spot me in a bar....


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## ivorra

Does that include these sources of information/opinion?
BBC NEWS | The Reporters | Robert Peston
World business, finance and political news from the Financial Times? FT.com Europe


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## thrax

Robert Peston I listen to, the BBC news has sadly gone downhill pandering to a different audience these days. Of course, there are good news services but they are completely swamped by the rubbish which sadly seems to be what most people in Britain read these days. I think Peston's views are usually well balanced and accurate although he has been responsible, on a few occasions, for some unfortunate and irresponsible exposes. Still, I always have time for him.


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## ivorra

thrax said:


> Robert Peston I listen to, the BBC news has sadly gone downhill pandering to a different audience these days. Of course, there are good news services but they are completely swamped by the rubbish which sadly seems to be what most people in Britain read these days. I think Peston's views are usually well balanced and accurate although he has been responsible, on a few occasions, for some unfortunate and irresponsible exposes. Still, I always have time for him.


Robert Peston's 'blog' and FT Europe on-line were what I meant by pasting in those links - not BBC News in general. Both these sites it seems to me are giving dispassionate and objective reporting and analysis of the somewhat scary situation in the UK and Spanish economies.


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## crookesey

thrax said:


> Robert Peston I listen to, the BBC news has sadly gone downhill pandering to a different audience these days. Of course, there are good news services but they are completely swamped by the rubbish which sadly seems to be what most people in Britain read these days. I think Peston's views are usually well balanced and accurate although he has been responsible, on a few occasions, for some unfortunate and irresponsible exposes. Still, I always have time for him.


Yes this is the 'Dog Bites Man', no story, as against the 'Man Bites Dog, front page headline theory. If Peston is so smart why doesn't someone ask him the one defining question that never gets asked, it being:-

*Where has all the money gone?*

It's a well used practice of fraud squads around the world, trace the money and then work back to who handled it. It's not disappeared, UK banks bought US sub prime debt so US lenders should have been laughing all the way to their bank vaults. However they found themselves having to go cap in hand to the Federal Reserve, what did they do with the money?


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## thrax

A huge amount of money was lost in the sub-prime mortgages. Where did it go? Real estate. People were lent vast amounts of money to buy homes they couldn't afford to repay. These homes were reposessed by the lenders but they cannot resell these properties. I read a story about a woman in Detroit who bought such a property in an auction for $1 (I kid you not) thinking that she should realise a good profit from her purchase. A year on and she cannot sell it at any price. So the original money lent to purchase the property is now with the original seller.
I don't know why but it makes me think of the recent US elections. The Republicans put forward John McCain for president. Let's recall who this guy really is: he was the guy who ran agains G W Bush for the Republican nomination back in 2000. So basically they put forward a guy who was not as good as George W 8 years ago - they didn't stand a chance. And Bush's administration was behind much of the financial debacle the world witnessed last year. Makes you think...


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## SunnySpain

thrax said:


> People were lent vast amounts of money to buy homes they couldn't afford to repay. These homes were reposessed by the lenders but they cannot resell these properties.
> 
> I don't buy into the idea that people were lent mponey they could not afford to pay back. The fact is they lost their job or spent money in an unwise mannrer.
> 
> They cannot resell the properties because very few people have the money to buy them and those that have the means cannot get the credit anymore.
> 
> 
> I don't know why but it makes me think of the recent US elections. The Republicans put forward John McCain for president. Let's recall who this guy really is: he was the guy who ran agains G W Bush for the Republican nomination back in 2000. So basically they put forward a guy who was not as good as George W 8 years ago - they didn't stand a chance. And Bush's administration was behind much of the financial debacle the world witnessed last year. Makes you think...
> 
> Can you explain what is makes you think ?


Cheers, Dave


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## tigersharkjs

*Lidl??*



SteveHall said:


> ** I did not like to say the other week "If I had to shop in Lidl I'd rather go hungry" as that was a bit too blunt (even for me!) but I know exactly what you are saying. I find myself almost embarassed by being financially very comfortable knowing that so many of many friends aren't.
> 
> I see people's phone and internet bills every day and even on this "necessity" (it wasn't 40/10 years ago) I see people are trying everything to save 20/30 euros per month.
> 
> Things are tough here in expatshire and much tougher than in Real Spain BUT if expats integrated and spoke fluent Spanish then life would be so much simpler.
> 
> I was doing a budget for a new expat the other day and he was horrified that I included 100 euros per month for the first 12 months to take professional Spanish lessons but totally adamant that he had to have UK Sky TV which was going to cost OVER 1000 euros per annum! I give in sometimes.



I've now noticed 2 negative comments about LIDL. What is wrong with the place? Is it expensive? Or bad quality?? Where should one shop?


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## SteveHall

IMHO ...and nothing else .....cheap and nasty. Only been in a few times and was not impressed - did not think I'd want to go through that again to save maybe 10 euros per week.


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## XTreme

SteveHall said:


> IMHO ...and nothing else .....cheap and nasty. Only been in a few times and was not impressed - did not think I'd want to go through that again to save maybe 10 euros per week.


Get your front teeth extracted and have a few tattoos and you'd fit right in Steve!


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## SteveHall

XTreme said:


> Get your front teeth extracted and have a few tattoos and you'd fit right in Steve!


That was just the women!! Did not see too many sub-30 guapitas there for you Xtreme. 

Reminded me of the Starship Enterprise, "It's life Jim ....but not as I know it"


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## chris(madrid)

SteveHall said:


> "It's life Jim ....but not as I know it"


That I cannae sae Capt'n"


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## jojo

tigersharkjs said:


> I've now noticed 2 negative comments about LIDL. What is wrong with the place? Is it expensive? Or bad quality?? Where should one shop?



LIDL is what you could politely term an economy shop! It is cheaper than others, it does stock some well known brands and some nice cooked meats and cheeses. BUT it also sells alot of cr*p!!! Its also quite an untidy shop, nothing seems to be where it should be and there are "no frills"

The best shop I've found is Mercadona, in the main, reasonably priced, reasonable quality and clean. Carrefour stores are usually massive and sell everything. They can be more expensive, but if you shop around there are bargains to be found. Superol and Opencor seem to be the most expensive that I've come across.

Thats just based on my area tho, so I dont kbnow if that sums it up everywhere!

Jo


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## chris(madrid)

jojo said:


> LIDL is what you could politely term an economy shop! It is cheaper than others, it does stock some well known brands and some nice cooked meats and cheeses. BUT it also sells alot of cr*p!!! Its also quite an untidy shop, nothing seems to be where it should be and there are "no frills"
> 
> The best shop I've found is Mercadona, in the main, reasonably priced, reasonable quality and clean. Carrefour stores are usually massive and sell everything. They can be more expensive, but if you shop around there are bargains to be found. Superol and Opencor seem to be the most expensive that I've come across.


Pretty well sums it up. 

I've used LIDL since our time in Germany (it's a German chain). Can be worth a run every so often - especially for household goods. They stack stuff where the boxes fit - and sometimes (as Jo says) you find stuff where you may not expect - in our local, Coffee is with frozen foods for example. Their BEER is cheap and is not at all bad. Very German though (all depends on your likes). A lot of their own brands - and some are not bad. The Chocolate for example.

imo The food at Mercadona IS better. They too have their own labels and if you're not awash with storage space - household stuff is cheap too so you can buy just what you need. Choice often limited - and in those I've been in - VERY aimed at the Spanish palette. Our local store has a marvellous range of fruit drinks.

Carrefour is imo EXPENSIVE for what it is - and the less said about The Corte Ingles outlets (Opencor etc) the better. Opencor is basically a Spanish 7-11. But as the price goes up - SO does the choice.

All this said - I was VERY pleasantly surprised in my local village on Saturday - a newish locally run supermarket - Smallish choice one might say - but not THAT expensive and the quality of MEAT frankly knocks all the chains for six. Also - and this stunned me rather - they stock Pataks curry. 

Veg is good too,though for cheaper less fancy veg (that needs to be used that day) - I'm told that our Moroccan supermarket is even cheaper. I will be investigating.


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## Stravinsky

We have started going to Lidl & Aldi before we go to Mercadonna or Carrefour. We get stuff like water & Milk and marg and basics ... then we go to buy what else we need ..... we found we are saving quite a bit doing this


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## SteveHall

..but what would I save on 2 jars of coffee (MUST be Nescafe Extra Roast) 7 cup -a- soups and 7 pizza 4 cheeses every week? My staple diet!!! LOL


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## Xose

Stravinsky said:


> We have started going to Lidl & Aldi before we go to Mercadonna or Carrefour. We get stuff like water & Milk and marg and basics ... then we go to buy what else we need ..... we found we are saving quite a bit doing this


Exactly what we do. Major for a family of 5. Also good for the non-branded, non overhead stuff like decent quality dish washer tablets, general house cleaning products etc. Save quite a lot and then food shop elsewhere for what's left. One stop shopping is a luxury because most of the majors have their strategy and loss leaders are widely used in the marketting.

As for Lydl - clearly the times dictate the trends - and who would of thought it, Matalan in the UK are outstriping just about everyone in their sector. I guess Yves Saint Laurent is in for a hard couple of years.


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## SunnySpain

Geeting back to the original post..

I read today that 1 in 6 Spaniards are unemployed, so how does that compare with the UK, anyone know ?




Dave


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## SteveHall

Hot off the press: 

Howard Archer, chief UK and European economist at IHS Global Insight

"Claimant count unemployment surged by a further 77,900 in December. While modestly less than feared and down from 83,100 in November, it was still an awful figure and the 11th successive rise. In addition, unemployment climbed by 131,000 in the three months to November on the International Labour Organization measure, taking it up to an 11-month high of 1.923 million. The ILO unemployment rate jumped to 6.1%, which is the highest level since the first half of 1999.

"While employment only fell by a lower-than-expected 26,000 in the three months to November, it is significant that the number of full-time employed plunged by 89,000. Meanwhile, the number of job vacancies was down by 69,000 in the three months to December.

"There is a rapidly increasing risk that claimant count unemployment will reach 2 million before the end of 2009. Furthermore, unemployment on the ILO measure is poised to rise above 2 million imminently and it seems ever more likely to reach 3 million in 2010."

21/1/2009


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## thrax

And of course, according to a recent report in the Economist and repeated in the Grauniad, because of the way the Government 'counts' unemployment, there is an estimated 1 to 1.5 million unemployed who are not on the books. Still nowhere near as bad as Spain though although we are doing our bit to catch up.


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## chris(madrid)

thrax said:


> And of course, according to a recent report in the Economist and repeated in the Grauniad, because of the way the Government 'counts' unemployment, there is an estimated 1 to 1.5 million unemployed who are not on the books. Still nowhere near as bad as Spain though although we are doing our bit to catch up.


And how many unlisted unemployed are there in Spain?. And how many unemployed on the "blackstuff"?


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## thrax

chris(madrid) said:


> And how many unlisted unemployed are there in Spain?. And how many unemployed on the "blackstuff"?


You are absolutely correct Chris; it is sadly a world in some turmoil. Still President Obama will save us all, if we are to believe the gutter press..... Then again, he simply cannot be as bad as the last one.


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## chrisnation

chummers said:


> Same in UK many jobs going, I am still planing to move to spain it least it cost less to live and the quality of life is better.
> What work if any is there, and what would be agood business to set up.


I'd say that if you have to _ask_ for advice about what would be a good biz to set up in, don't even dream it. 

Setting up a biz is something that comes out of a long period of experience, crazy optimism, brilliant wheezes, deadly intent, inspiration and pitiless hard work. 

I've never been an employee in my 59 1/2 years, so I know.


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## SteveHall

chrisnation said:


> I'd say that if you have to _ask_ for advice about what would be a good biz to set up in, don't even dream it.
> 
> Setting up a biz is something that comes out of a long period of experience, crazy optimism, brilliant wheezes, deadly intent, inspiration and pitiless hard work.
> 
> I've never been an employee in my 59 1/2 years, so I know.


Love it - I survived 3 months once. NEVER ever EVER again. 

It's worse than marriage!!


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## chrisnation

SteveHall said:


> Love it - I survived 3 months once. NEVER ever EVER again.
> 
> It's worse than marriage!!


Being an employee is worse than marriage?! Blimey! No wonder I never got spliced. I have asked and been accepted, several times. And been asked and accepted, several times - all with/by the same woman. Never made it past the engagement ring. I could just do with that GBP900 right now...

However, I have a very promising first date tonight with a delightful Belgian. Who knows? As Princess Michael replied when asked if she had ever been on a bus, "Oh, yes. I believe on should try everything at least once."

But back to our friend who asked about what biz would be good to set up. Please think very carefully on why you needed to ask that question in the first place. To my mind, setting up a biz is a form of madness. The fact that some of us who do still go around smiling should not disguise that fact. We're just like that.


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## thrax

SteveHall said:


> Love it - I survived 3 months once. NEVER ever EVER again.
> 
> It's worse than marriage!!


Thanks Steve - I knew there must be something worse than marriage; I just never knew what it was.


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## SteveHall

I think there are probably two things worse than marriage employment and 40 years of pain as a Man City supporter. The chances of me being employed or getting married again are, on a Richter scale of 0-10 mmmmmm in minus figures. The chances of me supporting Cxxx or Arsenal even less.


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## SteveHall

thrax said:


> Thanks Steve - I knew there must be something worse than marriage; I just never knew what it was.



Brave man! Did your wife give you permission to write that? If she finds out, you will suffer. Week.end at her mother's, changing her ostomy bag, cleaning the guttering and cutting the lawn with nail clippers.


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## SteveHall

Good luck with the Belgian, I have one in my lust-meter at the moment but she has two erectile dysfunction attachments (AKA children) - one of whom does not like Pippi Calzaslargas - so that's the end of that!!!


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## thrax

SteveHall said:


> Brave man! Did your wife give you permission to write that? If she finds out, you will suffer. Week.end at her mother's, changing her ostomy bag, cleaning the guttering and cutting the lawn with nail clippers.


Well if that's all they've got lined up, bring it on!!!!! And no, she has no idea I wrote that; I love to live dangerously. No, by far the worst they will do to me is make me sit down and listen to the outlaws for more than 20 minutes.


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## SunnySpain

An article (today) states the unemployment rate in Spain is now at 17.4%

The jobless rate has doubled in the last 12 months and is predicted to be nearer to 20% by 2010

Imagine that, 1 in 5 unemployed - phew


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## Stravinsky

SunnySpain said:


> An article (today) states the unemployment rate in Spain is now at 17.4%
> 
> The jobless rate has doubled in the last 12 months and is predicted to be nearer to 20% by 2010
> 
> Imagine that, 1 in 5 unemployed - phew


The owner of the building company that built my house is busily building a patio at a villa two doors down. I understand from one of the lads down there that it is the last work that this company has on its books at the moment. He doesnt know what he will be doing when the job is finished.


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## flyingthechute

Yikes! You guys are scaring the bejesus out of me!!!! I am looking at moving with my 16-year-old to Spain, or another 'warmer' European country (have German passport) next year and now wondering if it such a great idea. We want to stay for two years and are looking for a place that she can attend an english private high school school. I am a Canadian-trained Massage Therapist (2200 hrs as opposed to common 500 hr programs) and want to find a job where we can afford to live comfortably (2-bedroom apt, nothing fancy, but clean and good area), afford her private school, and have enough to go on vacations to explore Europe. Not sure that is a possibility any more. Oh yes - I would prefer warmer climes as I love to race sailboats  Any suggestions - and please don't tell me to move to Vancouver!!!


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## jojo

flyingthechute said:


> Yikes! You guys are scaring the bejesus out of me!!!! I am looking at moving with my 16-year-old to Spain, or another 'warmer' European country (have German passport) next year and now wondering if it such a great idea. We want to stay for two years and are looking for a place that she can attend an english private high school school. I am a Canadian-trained Massage Therapist (2200 hrs as opposed to common 500 hr programs) and want to find a job where we can afford to live comfortably (2-bedroom apt, nothing fancy, but clean and good area), afford her private school, and have enough to go on vacations to explore Europe. Not sure that is a possibility any more. Oh yes - I would prefer warmer climes as I love to race sailboats  Any suggestions - and please don't tell me to move to Vancouver!!!


To do all that from Spain???? Hhhhmm, well my children are at a private international school and thats around 2,000€ a term each, three terms a year and excluding extras (theres always extras isnt there), uniforms, all books, P.E. kits, trips etc  !!! As for rent well, depending where you go, I´d say youre looking at around 450 -750€ a month for a modest two bed place??, to have enough to explore? well I´ve no idea, but...... I think overall you´re gonna find it very tight!?

As for massage etc... I dont know what the training means or how it equates to money, but I´m not sure it would be the best or most successful short term money maker here right now??? But you would need to look into that before you came. But, maybe if you have independant funds as well it could be possible??

I´m not sure I can think of any other country that would enable you to do all you want and have a secure and fairly good income to start?? But I could be wrong, maybe you´re starting point would be to google some of the types of businesses that would require your services in possible countries?? You may find that they will all require you to speak their national language tho?? 

Sadly the world is a changing place at the moment and there are no guarrantees or even easy options anymore. There has to be an element of risk and I´m not saying that you shouldnt at least investigate all your opportunities, but its so difficult to get it right when everything keeps changing isnt it, so dont give up on your plans or dreams cos you only get one shot at all this! I hope it works out for you!!

I´ve heard Vancouver is nice LOL

Jo xxxx


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## Chica

Hi Flyingthechute.

It is very difficult to survive out here if you don't have a regular income from another source. If you had a little money tucked away somewhere we are desperate for a sailing dinghy school/club in my area. In fact, it's almost impossible to get your hands on a decently priced sailing dinghy. I know it's nothing to do with massaging be we are desperate to go out and have a sail  We also used to dinghy race and miss that exhileration. We look from our balcony to the sea and long to be on it but with the crunch can't afford one right now. 

I wish you luck with whatever you choose to do. Wouldn't it be nice to combine what you love doing, with your job.


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## SteveHall

Sorry to be blunt but your chances of finding a "job" are almost exactly zero. To find a "job" that would support that lifestyle are exactly zero. Spain is heading for 20% unemployment and unless you speak FLUENT Spanish you will be scratching a living in expatshire. 

If you have money stashed away and want a career break that's one thing but to have to find 2,000 euros per month cleared and minimum, sorry I just do not see it. 

As I always say, you only need one break and I hope you get it. 

Os deseo mucha suerte.


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## jojo

SteveHall said:


> Sorry to be blunt but your chances of finding a "job" are almost exactly zero. To find a "job" that would support that lifestyle are exactly zero. Spain is heading for 20% unemployment and unless you speak FLUENT Spanish you will be scratching a living in expatshire.
> 
> If you have money stashed away and want a career break that's one thing but to have to find 2,000 euros per month cleared and minimum, sorry I just do not see it.
> 
> As I always say, you only need one break and I hope you get it.
> 
> Os deseo mucha suerte.


dont mince your words Steve!!!!

Jo xxx


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## SunnySpain

SteveHall said:


> Sorry to be blunt but your chances of finding a "job" are almost exactly zero. To find a "job" that would support that lifestyle are exactly zero. Spain is heading for 20% unemployment and unless you speak FLUENT Spanish you will be scratching a living in expatshire.
> 
> If you have money stashed away and want a career break that's one thing but to have to find 2,000 euros per month cleared and minimum, sorry I just do not see it.
> 
> As I always say, you only need one break and I hope you get it.
> 
> Os deseo mucha suerte.


I tend to agree with Steve's comments. My OH speaks fluent Spanish, holds many qualifications & has been offered one job - 6 hrs a week

And that's in 4 years of looking for suitable employment.

Fortunately my OH has a job with a company outside of the EU and works freelance on the Internet; otherwise our financial status would be hit significantly

Most wanna be Expats that need work to survive have little chance of finding employment that will pay sufficient money. Its ok finding a little job here and there, but such employment pays next to nothing. Bar jobs are scarce and many bars and restaurants are closing or have closed. 

I fully realise that this is not what wanna be expats want to hear, but it is as Steve points out "the reality" and I prefer to live in the real world 

Dave


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## jojo

SunnySpain said:


> I tend to agree with Steve's comments. My OH speaks fluent Spanish, holds many qualifications & has been offered one job - 6 hrs a week
> 
> And that's in 4 years of looking for suitable employment.
> 
> Fortunately my OH has a job with a company outside of the EU and works freelance on the Internet; otherwise our financial status would be hit significantly
> 
> Most wanna be Expats that need work to survive have little chance of finding employment that will pay sufficient money. Its ok finding a little job here and there, but such employment pays next to nothing. Bar jobs are scarce and many bars and restaurants are closing or have closed.
> 
> I fully realise that this is not what wanna be expats want to hear, but it is as Steve points out "the reality" and I prefer to live in the real world
> 
> Dave


Actually thats the great thing about forums, different approaches, opinions, ideas... Its everybodies view points that makes forums work. This isnt an "ask the expert" site and altho we have a few on here that know infinately more than others, we all have our stories and thoughts! 

From my view point, when I made the decision to move to Spain there was very little anyone could have said to me, expert or not, to stop me coming over (i knew best lol), therefore I always feel people should be informed by everyone here, but should come and see for themselves. BUT never lose an escape route back, especially if they have a family with them

Jo


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## crookesey

Well guys, the UK stockmarket has been zooming upwards this week, albeit not today, and the pound is strengthening against the dollar and the euro. Me thinks that the worst is over, other than for unemployment that will get worse before it gets better. I wouldn't be at all surprised at a 6000 FTSE and 1.30 euros to the pound by the end of the year. 

As for Spain I saw nothing during my two weeks there to convince me that they are anywhere near to a recovery. Their heads appear to be deeply buried in the sand hoping that everything will be OK. Just watch the euro start to tumble against the pound and the dollar, what are the chances of a re-emergence of the peseta?


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## jojo

crookesey said:


> Well guys, the UK stockmarket has been zooming upwards this week, albeit not today, and the pound is strengthening against the dollar and the euro. Me thinks that the worst is over, other than for unemployment that will get worse before it gets better. I wouldn't be at all surprised at a 6000 FTSE and 1.30 euros to the pound by the end of the year.
> 
> As for Spain I saw nothing during my two weeks there to convince me that they are anywhere near to a recovery. Their heads appear to be deeply buried in the sand hoping that everything will be OK. Just watch the euro start to tumble against the pound and the dollar, what are the chances of a re-emergence of the peseta?


Nah cant see the pesata coming back, altho I believe an awful lot of spanish still use it "under the counter", it would simply cost too much and cause far too much chaos and confusion, not only for Spain, but the rest of the EU and indeed the world. 

The pound slipped a bit this afternoon after the announcement that they´re not putting the base rate up - ******!! However, I´m still hanging on to the fact that the eurozone are really gonna have to do something about bringing their base rate down!!

Spain does seem to be putting its hands over its face and pretending its not happening, although there are noises emerging of some pain when they glimpse between their fingers at things 

Jo xxx


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## mickybob

Euro base rate has come down 1/4% to 1% today.


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## jojo

mickybob said:


> Euro base rate has come down 1/4% to 1% today.



has it????? I thought it was to be announced today. well it hasnt made any difference to the pound/euro... thats still going the wrong way AAAAAGGGGHHH!!!!!

Jo xx


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## crookesey

jojo said:


> has it????? I thought it was to be announced today. well it hasnt made any difference to the pound/euro... thats still going the wrong way AAAAAGGGGHHH!!!!!
> 
> Jo xx


Don't worry Jo, there were other factors at play today, I bet you that the pound strengthens against the euro.


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## jojo

crookesey said:


> Don't worry Jo, there were other factors at play today, I bet you that the pound strengthens against the euro.



WHEN???

Jo


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## Tallulah

crookesey said:


> Don't worry Jo, there were other factors at play today, I bet you that the pound strengthens against the euro.




The pound started to fall when the ECB announced a 1/2 point cut to 1% and thus keeps the eurozone slightly more investment friendly than the GBP. I'm sure the market was starting to factor in a full cut to 0.5 to bring it in line with the UK and (kind of) US rates. Add to this the announcement that the Bank of England is pumping in another bunch of gazillions and people might start to wonder how much further the future GBP can stretch to pay for this little lot already dispensed, let alone another £50 billion boost - also known as another £50 billion addition to an already massive gap for future tax payers and UK Ltd.

Unlike the US, the UK is not a 13 trillion dollar economy, but I fear they seem to think they are and there must be fears that the rubber band can not keep on stretching for a visible future return to normality. 

Our hopes therefore lie in the eurozone falling into deeper cack than the GBP. This is not by any means out of the question, and signs are that it may well do so as the bad news start to filter in later than the UK's did hence the slight upward trend. Let's hope the UK's economy boosts and all the other bull stops soon so that the eurozone fall can start lifting the value of the pound. I really don't think that the pound going up on its own strength will happen or will start to happen much before 2011.

I of course hope I am wrong and that the pound will be back to 1.45 ish as it was two years ago by the end of the year; but I can see FOREX traders playing games with the small investors and I fear many people are yet to be burnt before normality reigns again.


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## jojo

Tallulah said:


> The pound started to fall when the ECB announced a 1/2 point cut to 1% and thus keeps the eurozone slightly more investment friendly than the GBP. I'm sure the market was starting to factor in a full cut to 0.5 to bring it in line with the UK and (kind of) US rates. Add to this the announcement that the Bank of England is pumping in another bunch of gazillions and people might start to wonder how much further the future GBP can stretch to pay for this little lot already dispensed, let alone another £50 billion boost - also known as another £50 billion addition to an already massive gap for future tax payers and UK Ltd.
> 
> Unlike the US, the UK is not a 13 trillion dollar economy, but I fear they seem to think they are and there must be fears that the rubber band can not keep on stretching for a visible future return to normality.
> 
> Our hopes therefore lie in the eurozone falling into deeper cack than the GBP. This is not by any means out of the question, and signs are that it may well do so as the bad news start to filter in later than the UK's did hence the slight upward trend. Let's hope the UK's economy boosts and all the other bull stops soon so that the eurozone fall can start lifting the value of the pound. I really don't think that the pound going up on its own strength will happen or will start to happen much before 2011.
> 
> I of course hope I am wrong and that the pound will be back to 1.45 ish as it was two years ago by the end of the year; but I can see FOREX traders playing games with the small investors and I fear many people are yet to be burnt before normality reigns again.


you scare me Tally when you go into "brain mode"!!!!

Jo xx


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## Tallulah

jojo said:


> you scare me Tally when you go into "brain mode"!!!!
> 
> Jo xx


Look, I'm also blonde and into a bit of fake tan from time to time hon!! Seriously though, it's a very hot topic in our house and we do like to, shall we say, "dabble". Anyway, that's not really "brain mode". "Brain mode" is making a shed load of money while everyone else is losing their shirt. Now, if you can make that sort of money, but use someone else's money to do it, that's real brain power!!

Tallulah.xxx


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## SunnySpain

Tallulah said:


> Look, Anyway, that's not really "brain mode". "Brain mode" is making a shed load of money while everyone else is losing their shirt. Now, if you can make that sort of money, but use someone else's money to do it, that's real brain power!!
> 
> Tallulah.xxx



I think Barclays have just done exactly that -


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## scharlack

SteveHall said:


> Do not even get me started on the price of phone calls or internet (if you can get it) I also see Virgin offering 50 Mb in the UK, Most people in Spain would kill for 10 MB!!


A quick one re internet conexions -

ONO offers 50Mb internet for 59,90€/month.

Hi, 

ONO may OFFER 50 MB but as a percentage of one percent how many people in Spain can receive it? 

Just done a PING - wow the dizzy height of 1717 kb/s! Pathetic


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## crookesey

The difference between say Spain and the UK is that if you live and work/draw pension in the UK you are far better off now than a year ago, in Spain however even Spaniards who are in work are feeling the pinch.

You can pick up a 2 years old £30K new price car for under £10K in the UK, not so in Spain. Borrowing costs have dropped dramatically in the UK, a friend with a £300K mortgage has seen his interest rate drop fron 5.0% to 1.49%. All of the trendy cafe bars are doing 2 for one meal deals, I recently had a replacement SKY Plus box supplied and installed for £15.00. 

The penny will eventually drop over here that if you have the same or more income than you had a year ago then you are a lot better off and have extra money to spend. When this money starts to filter into the economy the pound will harden even though the powers that be don't want it to. The BOE are playing monopoly with their 'quantitive easing' solution to the recession, but more money available to lend will have some effect.

Please cosider this, a recession is when the guy next door loses his job, a depression is when you lose your job. We had over 5 million people claiming one sort or other benefit last year when things were supposed to be OK, another 2 million short term unemployed will have little effect on the economy, albeit not being very nice for those who lose their jobs.


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## SunnySpain

crookesey said:


> Borrowing costs have dropped dramatically in the UK, a friend with a £300K mortgage has seen his interest rate drop fron 5.0% to 1.49%.
> 
> The same has happened in Spain, borrowing costs are much lower.
> 
> 
> There are key difference between Spain and the UK
> 
> For example
> Spain does not have the power that the UK has over its currency
> Unemployment is higher in Spain and rising rapidly
> Property prices are dropping but not fast enough


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## scharlack

scharlack said:


> A quick one re internet conexions -
> 
> ONO offers 50Mb internet for 59,90€/month.
> 
> Hi,
> 
> ONO may OFFER 50 MB but as a percentage of one percent how many people in Spain can receive it?
> 
> Just done a PING - wow the dizzy height of 1717 kb/s! Pathetic


Hello,

Steve, the 50Mb packages are only offered on the big cities if I am not mistaken. Does it also apply for Virgin in the UK? I mean, can you get 50Mb anywhere in the country?
BTW, for ORDINARY internet users 6-10Mb conexions should be plenty. My opinion... 

Cheers


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## Tallulah

SunnySpain said:


> crookesey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Borrowing costs have dropped dramatically in the UK, a friend with a £300K mortgage has seen his interest rate drop fron 5.0% to 1.49%.
> 
> The same has happened in Spain, borrowing costs are much lower.
> 
> 
> There are key difference between Spain and the UK
> 
> For example
> Spain does not have the power that the UK has over its currency
> Unemployment is higher in Spain and rising rapidly
> Property prices are dropping but not fast enough
> 
> 
> 
> Dave,
> 
> regarding your comment on your friend's mortgage rate : he's one of the lucky ones that stayed on the variable rate then. Obviously those with capped for however many years still have to stick with it despite the huge recent drop.
> 
> Interesting to note also recently in the news, banks aren't passing on all of the cuts on all of the loans and those unlucky enough to have called "0800215000" as the classic ad said, are still stuck with major headaches.
> 
> As for the drop to 1.5%, there lies the major additional danger for the future, if the powers that be don't reign in the banks' greed. Imagine what someone looking for a mortgage at 5% on say, 3.5 times salary (I know someone in the business and it had gotten crazy where 5 times salary was becoming common pre-crisis), and can now borrow at 1.5%. Let's hope the banks are not allowed to lend these sums, because it's going to be hard enough to pay for the bail-out billions without having to pay 4, 5, 6, 7% once things normalise in a couple of years on a huge mortgage you could afford at 1.5%. - The aforementioned billions will mean increased taxes, no question, so a massive mortgage burden then will be as bad as negative equity now and so off we will go again.
> 
> Tallulah.x
Click to expand...


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## SunnySpain

They just said the following on the news.

Spain pays out double in unemployment benefit compared to the Eurozone average with an astonishing 18% unemployed

36% of those under the age of 25 are unemployed in Spain
Compared to an average of 20% in the eurozone

Property prices are set to fall 10% on average in 2009
And then by as much as 30% come 2011 - in Spain

All does not seem well with the Spanish economy - lol

Dave


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## Xose

SunnySpain said:


> They just said the following on the news.
> 
> Spain pays out double in unemployment benefit compared to the Eurozone average with an astonishing 18% unemployed
> 
> 36% of those under the age of 25 are unemployed in Spain
> Compared to an average of 20% in the eurozone
> 
> Property prices are set to fall 10% on average in 2009
> And then by as much as 30% come 2011 - in Spain
> 
> All does not seem well with the Spanish economy - lol
> 
> Dave


I personally think that these stats are a load of garbage. For example, it's just been announced that the unemployment rate has actually dropped by some 50+K. Wow, and just before the EU elections aswell - handy!!

"36% of under 25's are unemployed" - is that literally claiming PARO - or simply under 25's that are not in full time, Institute of National Statistics controlled contracted employment. If the latter, I'm surprised it isn't higher. After all, according to INE, the average wage in spain is about 2500€ per month.... average being those they care to report on of course (Whiskers, 9 out of the 10 people we chose to pick said their cats preferred it) - oh, sorry, 9 out of 10 people said their cats preferred it - same isn't it? 

Also Spain pays a hell of a lot of % to income Dole in the first couple of years of Paro - specially the first year. After that, not a lot. We're in those first two years of the crisis, so what do they mean by "Spain pays out double in unemployment - because other countries pay £55 a week to the single unemployed person?? or because Spain's % of unemployment is higher? Is it that much higher in terms of headcount? - given the finances of the SS, compared to say, the NHS, which will dry up faster? All tricky questions and for me, not ones that these sort of stats will answer in a hurry.

By the way, the 50+K improvement in unemployment is, in my opinion, down to all these government projects that were announced a while back to fight unemployment. Not exactly sustainable and not exactly a large number - oh well, on we plod.

Xose
.


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## Suenneil

Xose said:


> I personally think that these stats are a load of garbage. For example, it's just been announced that the unemployment rate has actually dropped by some 50+K. Wow, and just before the EU elections aswell - handy!!
> 
> "36% of under 25's are unemployed" - is that literally claiming PARO - or simply under 25's that are not in full time, Institute of National Statistics controlled contracted employment. If the latter, I'm surprised it isn't higher. After all, according to INE, the average wage in spain is about 2500€ per month.... average being those they care to report on of course (Whiskers, 9 out of the 10 people we chose to pick said their cats preferred it) - oh, sorry, 9 out of 10 people said their cats preferred it - same isn't it?
> 
> Also Spain pays a hell of a lot of % to income Dole in the first couple of years of Paro - specially the first year. After that, not a lot. We're in those first two years of the crisis, so what do they mean by "Spain pays out double in unemployment - because other countries pay £55 a week to the single unemployed person?? or because Spain's % of unemployment is higher? Is it that much higher in terms of headcount? - given the finances of the SS, compared to say, the NHS, which will dry up faster? All tricky questions and for me, not ones that these sort of stats will answer in a hurry.
> 
> By the way, the 50+K improvement in unemployment is, in my opinion, down to all these government projects that were announced a while back to fight unemployment. Not exactly sustainable and not exactly a large number - oh well, on we plod.
> 
> Xose
> .




Im not too hot with numbers myself! .... (I have other qualities so I dont worry too much) !! ........... BUT do these figures also include those who were "working" commission only jobs, no contracts, no basic and no rights at all really - who now find themselves out of work but wont be entitled to any benefits because they havent contributed to the system - Also those who were working comms only jobs and were registered autonomo but now have no work ? I dont believe they are entitled to benefits either ? so therefore probably dont show up in any figures as being unemployed .... 

I have a lot of friends / acquaintances who have worked for 3 or 4 years on dodgy contracts and at the time they probably never really expected anything else - and didnt worry too much either because they were at least working and getting paid .... but now its come back to bite them on the bum ! and they have no support system to help them through the hard times.

Im sure there are plenty of opinions on contributing to the system, doing things the right way etc ... and in principal I agree completely ... HOWEVER - even when times were good or even ok - the vast majority of companies employing people here in Spain (Particular the international / uk companies) didnt give people much choice ... you either wanted to work and get paid - or you didnt !


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## Xose

Suenneil said:


> Im sure there are plenty of opinions on contributing to the system, doing things the right way etc ... and in principal I agree completely ... HOWEVER - even when times were good or even ok - the vast majority of companies employing people here in Spain (Particular the international / uk companies) didnt give people much choice ... you either wanted to work and get paid - or you didnt !


Wow, I'm shocked at the difference in other parts of the country. "The vast majority of companies in Spain...." - that's frightening.

I agree with the old 3 month contract, endlessly renewed, 6 months to dole and then back again. This is why the law was changed quite a long time ago to stop that. I also agree with some companies registering as flower shops or whatever to keep their "Regimen de contribucion" down and pay a lower minimum wage. But the vast majority not even registering the people. That's a huge health and safety risk and the average inspector would shut them down in a minute. I can see the small "Autonomo" boss type business doing that, bars etc., but the vast majority of Spanish companies, surely not!! 

I know of one Bar owner who didn't even get away with not registering his own son working behind the bar for him. He was working there and so was to be an employee or else. In the end he didn't bother and got fined 60K€ - he applealed and had it reduced a bit, but it was a tough lesson to learn. Turns out one of his clients frequenting the bar during that time was an "inspector de trabajo". He reckons he was stiched up by another bar owner, I recon he was unlucky and the "random check" just landed on his bar that time.

Please don't think I'm not agreeing with you. I know nothing of business practices in the south. I just find it hard to imagine that Fenosa, Iberdrola, Telefonica, Citroen, BP, Cocacola, Corte Ingles, Carrefour, any bank etc., etc, would risk that kind of scenario.

Now, the summer period hotels, bars, *sub-contractors* to main construction companies (ACS/Ferrovial/FCC/Real Urbis etc) - totally able to see it with them. But then, with that last lot, where don't they do that?!


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## Suenneil

Xose said:


> Wow, I'm shocked at the difference in other parts of the country. "The vast majority of companies in Spain...." - that's frightening.
> 
> I agree with the old 3 month contract, endlessly renewed, 6 months to dole and then back again. This is why the law was changed quite a long time ago to stop that. I also agree with some companies registering as flower shops or whatever to keep their "Regimen de contribucion" down and pay a lower minimum wage. But the vast majority not even registering the people. That's a huge health and safety risk and the average inspector would shut them down in a minute. I can see the small "Autonomo" boss type business doing that, bars etc., but the vast majority of Spanish companies, surely not!!
> 
> I know of one Bar owner who didn't even get away with not registering his own son working behind the bar for him. He was working there and so was to be an employee or else. In the end he didn't bother and got fined 60K€ - he applealed and had it reduced a bit, but it was a tough lesson to learn. Turns out one of his clients frequenting the bar during that time was an "inspector de trabajo". He reckons he was stiched up by another bar owner, I recon he was unlucky and the "random check" just landed on his bar that time.
> 
> Please don't think I'm not agreeing with you. I know nothing of business practices in the south. I just find it hard to imagine that Fenosa, Iberdrola, Telefonica, Citroen, BP, Cocacola, Corte Ingles, Carrefour, any bank etc., etc, would risk that kind of scenario.
> 
> Now, the summer period hotels, bars, *sub-contractors* to main construction companies (ACS/Ferrovial/FCC/Real Urbis etc) - totally able to see it with them. But then, with that last lot, where don't they do that?!


Xose .... lol.....sorry - please let me rephrase the one little error! "the vast majority of companies here on the Coast (particularly international / UK)" is what I meant to say .... obviously I cant possibly comment on anywhere else - seriously, I have worked for 5 years in a relatively concentrated area of the coast and its most definitely my experience......... the point I was trying to make is that yes you get people not paying into a system that they may need at some point in the future (ie now!!) and thats wrong ... but for a lot of people they had little choice in the matter given the "dodginess" or exploitative nature of their employers ..... and in addition to that this may also skew the unemployment figures too ......  I find it much easier to talk in person you know!!! all this writing I make too many errors !!


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## SteveHall

Xose said:


> Please don't think I'm not agreeing with you. I know nothing of business practices in the south. I just find it hard to imagine that Fenosa, Iberdrola, Telefonica, Citroen, BP, Cocacola, Corte Ingles, Carrefour, any bank etc., etc, would risk that kind of scenario.


Telefónica!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just remind me how many of the last 5 Telefónica presidentes have ended in jail. 3 isn't it?


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## Xose

SteveHall said:


> Telefónica!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just remind me how many of the last 5 Telefónica presidentes have ended in jail. 3 isn't it?


Were they the one's who got a circa €7M golden parachute after ruining the business having gambled irreponsively with other people's "safe" money?!
Ah no, wrong sector, wrong country. Oh and yes, no gaol either....

However, I agree, there are some seriously unethical business men in Spain. As I imagine there are in lots of parts of the world. However, I don't think that saving a few grand on Social Security payments for their dodgy employment contracts, or lack off, is part of their rich tapestry of dodgy dealings. Or is there someting I've missed where their South American business is employing elegal imigrants in Venezuela or somesuch?


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## SunnySpain

Xosa said
However, I agree, there are some seriously unethical business men in Spain. However, I don't think that saving a few grand on Social Security payments for their dodgy employment contracts, or lack off, is part of their rich tapestry of dodgy dealings. 

My reply
Well, we could name many an employer who never give proper employment contracts, nor do their employees get any official holiday or sick pay and most of the people employed in this way tend to be illegals

And then the media goes and spouts terrible things about illegals taking the work of Spaniards, when its the Spanish employers who have created this situation and from I have seen the authorities just turn a blind eye to it all

If you kicked out all the illegals from Spain (as if it were possible - lol) many thousands of restaurants and bars would have no staff 

Dave


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## SteveHall

"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul .....will always depend on the support of Paul" 
George Bernard Shaw


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## SunnySpain

SteveHall said:


> "A government that robs Peter to pay Paul .....will always depend on the support of Paul"
> George Bernard Shaw



I am the walrus, I am the eggman koo-koo-ku-choo
John Lennon


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## Xose

SteveHall said:


> "A government that robs Peter to pay Paul .....will always depend on the support of Paul"
> George Bernard Shaw


"Keep them happy with a minimum wage then tax the arse off them". Every government since Thatcher.

"Let's not forget that the law exists because the Highwayman robbed the rich, not because some poor labourer/miner/farmer was getting badly treated".... every government, ever.

As for Peter and Paul, send them winkle picking and be done with it - only give it some coverage and make sure the labourer/miner/farmer is happy - oh and send the foreman who hired them to gaol for a couple of months for good messure. Leave the market maker alone mind!


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## SteveHall

Well, back on topic!!!

Some very distressing news for all houseowners here:

Spanish property prices set to fall another 20pc says leading bank

Spanish property crash is far from over, argues BBVA, Spain’s second biggest bank. According to BBVA’s latest report on the Spanish property sector, house prices will fall 10% this year, and 12% next year, leading to overall price falls from peak to trough of 30% by 2012, the year in which the bank expects the market to start its recovery.

According to the eggheads at BBVA who wrote the report, “the adjustment in prices has taken place quicker than expected.” The same cannot be said for the country’s glut of new homes, which the bank estimates at 1.2 million properties, and expects to reach 1.5 million by the start of next year. BBVA’s estimates are significantly higher than the governments; a new report from the Ministry of Housing estimates there are just 1 million new homes in Spain in search of a buyer. 


The problem is that, when it comes to prices, the bank’s figures will look to many people in the property business as lagging behind reality. BBVA seems to agree with the government that prices have fallen so far by around 8% in nominal terms, whereas anyone working in Spanish property sales, and lucky enough to still have a job, can tell you it is more like 20% to 30%. Developer associations have also stated that prices have already fallen by 20% (and so don’t need to fall any further).

BBVA isn’t the only bank talking about price falls of 30%. In a new report on European property markets the American bank Citigroup says that it is “only a matter of time” before price falls of between 20% and 30% hit Spain, begging the question ‘but haven’t they already fallen by that much?’ Citigroup expects the European property market slump to last 5 to 6 years, and to hit Spain harder than most, thanks to excesses of Spain’s boom.

The report from BBVA also reveals that the Spanish government is spending 2% of GDP on a stimulus package for the real estate sector, compared to 0.5% in the USA, and less than 0.3% in the UK, Italy and France.

The report points out that falling interest rates and inflation mean households will have more disposable income, which should stimulate demand for housing. However, whilst people are fearful of losing their jobs, and expect property prices to keep falling, demand will remain depressed. Which is why the market will remain in the doldrums until 2012.


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## SunnySpain

SteveHall said:


> Well, back on topic!!!
> 
> Some very distressing news for all houseowners here:
> 
> Spanish property prices set to fall another 20pc says leading bank
> 
> Spanish property crash is far from over, argues BBVA, Spain’s second biggest bank. According to BBVA’s latest report on the Spanish property sector, house prices will fall 10% this year, and 12% next year, leading to overall price falls from peak to trough of 30% by 2012, the year in which the bank expects the market to start its recovery.



Yes its certainly an interesting topic for many expats.
I think 30% of current prices would be reasonable, yet I see many owners not willing to reduce the price at all, which makes me think they have little chance of selling their property and that they live in an unrealistic world

Dave


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