# US Social Security Pension



## greyowl

I came to Canada in 1969 from the US, became a Canadian Citizen in 1974, and got my CLN in 1984. I have not filed US taxes since 1974. I am at retirement age and wondering if I should request my US Social Security Pension. I know there is a tax treaty so that I would declare it on my Canadian Taxes and not have to file a US tax return. 

But, I am wondering if this would produce any unexpected issues with IRS.


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## Ladyhawk

greyowl said:


> I came to Canada in 1969 from the US, became a Canadian Citizen in 1974, and got my CLN in 1984. I have not filed US taxes since 1974. I am at retirement age and wondering if I should request my US Social Security Pension. I know there is a tax treaty so that I would declare it on my Canadian Taxes and not have to file a US tax return.
> 
> But, I am wondering if this would produce any unexpected issues with IRS.


I cannot answer your question but I am curious: how long did you contribute? I worked for a short time in the US before I moved to Canada, and a couple of years ago I checked with the Social Security office about collecting. They said that for me, the amount I got would be deducted from my Canada Pension, so it wasn't worth my while. I mentioned that to an accountant at one time and he implied that this may be incorrect, but I have not followed up on this.

Regarding the IRS, I am surprised that you could get any sort of income from the US and not have to report it somehow, yourself, as opposed to (or additional to) any reporting that the SS Admin would have to do.


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## greyowl

According to the tax treaty between the US and Canada, the US will use your work in Canada in order to boost your credits up to the 40 credits that are required to qualify for US SS. SS reports to CRA and you declare the money only on your Canadian Taxes. I don't believe that your CPP is reduced since the two benefits are from different sources. This information is on the CPP website but I don't have the url handy at the moment. If I find it, I will post it.


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## byline

Ladyhawk said:


> Regarding the IRS, I am surprised that you could get any sort of income from the US and not have to report it somehow, yourself, as opposed to (or additional to) any reporting that the SS Admin would have to do.


From what the original poster wrote, I assumed that any Social Security s/he paid into was while living in the U.S., _before_ moving to Canada. I did something similar; I worked in the U.S. through the end of December 1996, then moved to Canada. Most of my professional income, from the years I worked in the U.S., had Social Security deductions. Since moving to Canada, I haven't earned any U.S. income, but still have that total amount that I paid into Social Security before moving here.

Before becoming aware of my filing obligations, I thought that the last U.S. tax return I was required to submit was for 1997, as I had one last paycheck that was issued to me in January 1997. So I submitted that one, from Canada. The sad thing is that it was clear I was sending in my return from a Canadian address. All the IRS would've had to do was to send me a note saying, "We see that your address is in Canada. If you have taken up permanent residence in Canada, please note that as a U.S. citizen, you are still required to file U.S. tax returns." Of course, I got no such notification, so I had no idea. If I had received that kind of reminder, I would've been surprised, but I would have complied. I'm not sure if that would have taken care of the FBAR mess, but at least my tax returns would have been up to date.

Anyway, even if I relinquish/renounce, I assume that I will still be able to collect any Social Security owed to me. After all, I'm sure there are non-U.S. Canadian citizens who cross the border to work in the States and have to pay into Social Security, as well. But I'm not sure if this will create any red flags for the original poster, who may have to go through some sort of renunciation/relinquishment process in order to avoid the IRS/FBAR debacle.


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## Ladyhawk

greyowl said:


> According to the tax treaty between the US and Canada, the US will use your work in Canada in order to boost your credits up to the 40 credits that are required to qualify for US SS. SS reports to CRA and you declare the money only on your Canadian Taxes. I don't believe that your CPP is reduced since the two benefits are from different sources. This information is on the CPP website but I don't have the url handy at the moment. If I find it, I will post it.


So are you saying you get both pensions, SS and CPP? I will check that out, but I find it hard to believe! 
If they boost your credits up to 40 units, doesn't that also mean you qualify for Medicare, in case you move back?


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## Bevdeforges

Ladyhawk said:


> So are you saying you get both pensions, SS and CPP? I will check that out, but I find it hard to believe!
> If they boost your credits up to 40 units, doesn't that also mean you qualify for Medicare, in case you move back?


Check the terms of the Canadian social security treaty with the US. I happen to know that for Italian citizens, resident in Italy, you don't have to declare any US social security benefits paid. I don't know about the Canadian social security treaty with the US, but it's worth looking into.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Baird68

Ladyhawk said:


> So are you saying you get both pensions, SS and CPP? I will check that out, but I find it hard to believe!
> If they boost your credits up to 40 units, doesn't that also mean you qualify for Medicare, in case you move back?


My parents both received Social Security and CPP in Canada. They both worked in the U.S. for more than 10 years before moving to Canada.They became Canadian citizens in the late 1960s. They did not file U.S. taxes when they were Canadian citizens and, once they were age 65 they did receive SS checks. (Note the U.S. spelling!). Mom died 16 years ago and Dad died almost 7 years ago. Upon their deaths, I notified Social Security to have their checks stopped. Neither filed U.S. death taxes. They had no U.S. holdings apart from U.S. stocks within their investment portfolios held in Canada. They only had Canadian passports. If they knew what was going on now, they would rise from their graves in protest.


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## Guest

Ladyhawk said:


> So are you saying you get both pensions, SS and CPP? I will check that out, but I find it hard to believe!
> If they boost your credits up to 40 units, doesn't that also mean you qualify for Medicare, in case you move back?


I've found an explanation of the agreement effective August 1, 1984, between the United States and Canada to improve Social Security protection for people who work or have worked in both countries: 
Description of the U.S.-Canadian Social Security Agreement

"...
The agreement with Canada helps many people who, without the agreement, would not be eligible for monthly retirement, disability or survivors benefits under the Social Security systems of one or both countries. It also helps people who would otherwise have to pay Social Security taxes to both countries on the same earnings. 

For the United States, the agreement covers Social Security taxes (including the U.S. Medicare portion) and Social Security retirement, disability and survivors insurance benefits. It does not cover benefits under the U.S. Medicare program or the Supplemental Security Income program. For Canada, the agreement applies to the Old-Age Security program and the Canada Pension Plan. The understanding with Quebec applies to the Quebec Pension Plan. 
...
When you apply for benefits––You may have some Social Security credits in both the United States and Canada but not have enough to be eligible for benefits in one country or the other. The agreement makes it easier to qualify for benefits by letting you add together your Social Security credits in both countries..."


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## Bevdeforges

Just to add a point about US SS benefits. If you qualify to receive retirement benefits from another country (i.e. Canada) your US SS benefits may be reduced by some amount, due to the "Windfall Elimination Provision" (WEP).

If you apply to US Social Security, you can receive a statement of what payments they have on your account to the system and what level of benefit you can expect in the future, given certain assumptions. And they usually indicate on that statement what is the maximum amount of the reduction for the WEP. (Maybe it's only for statements sent to addresses outside the US - I'm not sure of that.)
Cheers,
Bev


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## greyowl

Here is more info on SS benefits and taxation for Canadians:

Line 115 - United States Social Security

United States

Taxation of Social Security Benefits: Proposed Changes to the Canada-U.S. Income Tax Convention

Infosheet on the Agreement on Social Security between Canada and United States

U.S.-Canadian Social Security Agreement


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