# What 3 problems should I worry about first?



## TOBound (Jan 1, 2012)

Hello all - I'm a worrier and completely subscribe to the theory that if something can go wrong, it will  First, some context...

We are a family of 4 (me..late 30s male...US citizen, wife mid-30s Canadian citizen but also a US green card holder, 5 year old son, and 2 year old daughter). Decision has been made that we'd rather raise our kids in Canada (Toronto to be specific) than US. Rationale was due to family ties and proximity to more cultural activities (we are Asian Indian by heritage).

We have got exactly 6 months before we absolutely need to exit US as our lease runs out on Jun 30, 2012. Ideally, we would make the actual move sometime in late May/early June.

Both my wife and I are with employers who are OK with us becoming virtual employees, where it really does not matter where we live as we both will work from home. Both of us work with large technology/consulting firms that have a large footprint in Canada. My wife is Canadian so she doesn't need any paperwork but my boss has agreed to get me an offer letter from the Canadian subsidiary of the company, which, to my understanding will allow me to enter and work in Canada, while I pursue becoming a permanent resident. I haven't yet gotten such a letter but I'm planning on nailing that this month.

We have chosen Mississauga as our destination. Having been there many times, we both feel that it is the right place for us to settle down. We are not interested in renting, so will be buying in the next 6 months. Using a foreign exchange service and my wife's existing bank account in Toronto, we have already started converting USD into CAD and plan is to get that account funded enough to do a 20% down payment on a mortgage.

All the above to say that we are blessed to be coming into Canada with our current jobs secure, know the area we want to live in, and know that we want to buy a house.

So far, so good. But what should I be worried about then? Here are some candidates that I'm chewing on and finding out ways to mitigate or at least understand the problem

- Health insurance, especially for the kids? I have already gotten them a Canadian citizenship card, since their mother is Canadian, and next month will get them a Canadian passport as well. What after that?

- Auto insurance? I read HORROR stories about the cost of this aspect of living in Toronto. I currently pay $100 a month, comprehensive insurance, for my wife's '09 Acura MDX and my '01 Porsche 911. So far, my plan is to find a broker and pray to the insurance gods that I only end up paying 2-3 times what I pay in US (Dallas)

- Taxes? I don't have a clue how this will work. I know that I will always have to file for US taxes, since I'm a citizen. And my sense is that my wife will as well, since she is a green card holder. I also understand that there is a treaty between US and Canada to avoid getting double taxed. After those 3 loosely understood things, I'm completely clueless. Plan is to engage a consultation with the expat tax accountant to better understand the issues. Our HH income is likely to put us in the top 3-5% of all Canadian households so this issue gives me the most pause for now.

- Lack of a Canadian credit history for me (wife likely has an old, inactive one that we can restart) - Not new to house buying, nor the sticker shocker of decent house in Mississauga. What gives me pause is how the Canadian banks will view us and whether anything from our US credit history flows through or are we going to be treated as 'just starting out'

- Schools? Much rather go to the best public school we can afford to get into (buy into that neighborhood), so not as concerned here especially since, if all goes per plan, we would be here right at the start of the summer vacation period anyway

- Actual move? Seems there are a ton of movers with experience going from US to Toronto, so this one feels like a question of hiring the most respected one that we can. Seems like the process is fairly straightforward with couple of red-tape items around importing the cars. Have no idea how long such a move will take but most likely won't actively start researching this more till April.

So, if you made this far, first thank you for reading (& hopefully responding), the question is 2 fold: 1) Is there something else I should be worrying about that is not in the above list, and 2) Should I be placing much more emphasis on understanding one particular aspect about something much more and letting go of the other, minor issues?


----------



## Auld Yin (Mar 10, 2009)

TOBound said:


> Hello all - I'm a worrier and completely subscribe to the theory that if something can go wrong, it will  First, some context...
> 
> We are a family of 4 (me..late 30s male...US citizen, wife mid-30s Canadian citizen but also a US green card holder, 5 year old son, and 2 year old daughter). Decision has been made that we'd rather raise our kids in Canada (Toronto to be specific) than US. Rationale was due to family ties and proximity to more cultural activities (we are Asian Indian by heritage).
> 
> ...


You've got most issues covered. Stop worrying so much. 250,000 people immigrate to Canada every year. mainly from countries not on the NA continent. You have many advantages over them with things such as driving habits, familiarity with food/stores, etc. etc. Good Luck.


----------



## JohnSoCal (Sep 2, 2007)

Do you realize that your wife can lose her US Resident Visa ( Green Card ) by moving to Canada as she will be viewed as abandoning her US residence. Of course if you intend to stay in Canada then it really doesn't matter.


----------



## Omater (Nov 26, 2011)

Just be sure you continue to file your US tax returns after you move. Your wife may also have to file returns if you are both working for a US corporation. You will probably not owe the US any taxes because of foreign tax credits, but you still have to file the returns.


----------



## G-Mo (Aug 17, 2011)

TOBound said:


> - Health insurance, especially for the kids? I have already gotten them a Canadian citizenship card, since their mother is Canadian, and next month will get them a Canadian passport as well. What after that?


As Auld Yin said, you will need to cover your own health insurance for the first three months after landing. Try these people: TIC Travel Insurance Coordinators Ltd. - Welcome to TIC Travel Insurance


----------



## Jrge (Mar 22, 2011)

TOBound said:


> - Auto insurance? I read HORROR stories about the cost of this aspect of living in Toronto. I currently pay $100 a month, comprehensive insurance, for my wife's '09 Acura MDX and my '01 Porsche 911. So far, my plan is to find a broker and pray to the insurance gods that I only end up paying 2-3 times what I pay in US (Dallas)
> 
> **I called my old Insurance carrier in the US - State Farm- and they are going to write me a new policy for auto and renter's insurance. They warned the premium for my SUV will be slightly higher than in the US (she said at least $1k). However, for $40k in renter's will be $13.00 monthly or less.
> *
> ...


Yes, call Porsche and Acura to find out if your vehicles need any special treatment, such as, block heaters installed, protective coating for the salt, among others.


----------



## TOBound (Jan 1, 2012)

First of all, thank you all for your replies. 

@Auld Yin - I believe a letter from my company's subsidiary will allow me to get a work permit easily. My company may actually help get that permit but that's yet to be determined. Appreciate the link to the auto insurance. I did know that we had to be 'on the ground' for 3 months before we get healthcare. I wonder, though, what is defined to be 'on the ground'? My wife's mother lives in Toronto and we go there often, so conceivably, I can use her address to file for healthcare. Seems dubious though...

@JohnSoCal - I dd not realize that, so thank you for pointing that out. Any ideas on how long she will retain the Green Card status after moving to Canada? We intend to stay in Canada indefinitely, so not as concerned here.

@Omater - Yup, completely concur.

@G-Mo: Thank you for the link for the interim health coverage.

@Jrge - Thank you for the additional tips. I believe we have a lot of 'spring cleaning' to do prior to the move.

Appreciate any further insights from this board.

Cheers!


----------



## Auld Yin (Mar 10, 2009)

TOBound said:


> First of all, thank you all for your replies.
> 
> @Auld Yin - I believe a letter from my company's subsidiary will allow me to get a work permit easily. My company may actually help get that permit but that's yet to be determined. Appreciate the link to the auto insurance. I did know that we had to be 'on the ground' for 3 months before we get healthcare. I wonder, though, what is defined to be 'on the ground'? My wife's mother lives in Toronto and we go there often, so conceivably, I can use her address to file for healthcare. Seems dubious though...
> 
> ...


Just as with the US Immogration, it is not advisable to lie or deceive its Canadian counterparts.


----------



## JohnSoCal (Sep 2, 2007)

TOBound said:


> @JohnSoCal - I dd not realize that, so thank you for pointing that out. Any ideas on how long she will retain the Green Card status after moving to Canada? We intend to stay in Canada indefinitely, so not as concerned here.Cheers!


It is not a matter of time but a matter of whether the INS believes she is abandoning her US residency. Some people can retain it for a number of years and others lose it almost immediately. It just depends on what the INS knows about the situation. I have friends from Mexico with Green Cards that worked in San Diego and lived in Tijuana. One day the INS just took away their Green Cards because it became obvious that Mexico was their residence. It is a pretty random thing.

I am one that believes in keeping all your options open. You think at this time that you are not going to return to the US in the future but that could change due to many factors so it is best not to burn your bridges behind you. The biggest reason that the INS would find out is if you go back and forth across the border like many people do.


----------



## TOBound (Jan 1, 2012)

All - OP here. You get lots of folks asking for your help and then you don't know what happened to them, so I thought it'd be nice to follow-up with my own first-hand experiences.

- Once the paperwork was filled out, getting a work permit was a PIECE OF CAKE. I purposely landed in YYZ, announced my intentions to customs, was directed to immigration and 30 minutes later was walking out the door with my work permit!

- Getting a Social Insurance Number was a PIECE OF CAKE as well. Walked in with 2 forms of ID and work permit, walked out 20 minutes later with SIN # in hand.

- We have also bought a house in Mississauga, in a good area with excellent elementary and middle schools. Getting a mortgage was a piece of a cake but be ready to give lots and lots of paperwork with the same type of requests coming from the realtor, from the broker, from the lawyer, and later again from the bank itself. I basically had to lay out the most private level of financial information bare to whomever asked to keep the process going. Unsettling but I don't see very many options. I got a great rate as well..3% for 4 years. While prices of homes in good areas of Mississauga are nothing to sneeze at, I did find that the property taxes were on the lower side of what I'd have expected. That's probably b/c Canadian system taxes everything else SO HIGH 

- Will be finding out about the health coverage later this month as I get 'on-boarded' from the Canadian subsidiary of my US based company. There is also the matter of applying for Ontario Health Card, which we haven't done yet.

- Auto insurance...cheapest quote is about 3-times what I'm paying now. Most expensive was 5-times what I'm paying now. Found home insurance surprising affordable. Go figure. I think I can do better than 3-times, but I think that 2.5 times what I'm paying in US would be a great deal and it would very tough to go below that.

- We have made 2 trips already to mississauga, first one to talk to realtor and see some initial areas. Second one was to buy a home. Crazy to see/buy/bid/inspect/finance a house in one weekend but we were prepped and prepared to pull the trigger because we knew we didn't have more time. We also researched summer camps for kids and got them enrolled in the same weekend.

- On moving costs...the actual house move was actually not that bad. Figure that it will $1/lb to move your stuff from US to Canada. So if you home comes in at 15,000 lbs, expect to pay $15,000. Cars, on the other hand, were ridiculous to move into Canada directly. By moving the cars to Buffalo vs Toronto, we saved easily 50-60% of the costs. Finally, since I'm moving under a work-permit, I will by-pass taxes, duties, and most fees when bringing the cars over to Toronto. Once I get a PR card though, then the cars are considered no longer temporary and I will owe some money to Canadian gov't at that time. That's ok, as between buying a house, moving, doing some renovations at our new home, we are becoming pretty cash strapped as is.

- God willing, we close the house soon and should be in Toronto shortly thereafter (within 2 months).

I hope that helps those who are looking for some recent, first hand experiences to gauge their own journey. 2 big things that made a huge difference in our case was working for companies that had canadian subsidiary and bosses that didn't mind us working from home, so jobs were not an issue at all. Also, my spouse is Canadian which made initial dealings with Banks much easier....so your mileage may vary. 

Wsh everyone considering this the very best.


----------



## Jrge (Mar 22, 2011)

TOBound said:


> ........
> 
> - We have also bought a house in Mississauga, in a good area with excellent elementary and middle schools. Getting a mortgage was a piece of a cake but be ready to give lots and lots of paperwork with the same type of requests coming from the realtor, from the broker, from the lawyer, and later again from the bank itself. I basically had to lay out the most private level of financial information bare to whomever asked to keep the process going. Unsettling but I don't see very many options. I got a great rate as well..3% for 4 years. While prices of homes in good areas of Mississauga are nothing to sneeze at, I did find that the property taxes were on the lower side of what I'd have expected. That's probably b/c Canadian system taxes everything else SO HIGH


Could you elaborate further on this? What type of documents were you actually asked for? Wasn't your credit score from the US more than enough? 



TOBound said:


> - Auto insurance...cheapest quote is about 3-times what I'm paying now. Most expensive was 5-times what I'm paying now. Found home insurance surprising affordable. Go figure. I think I can do better than 3-times, but I think that 2.5 times what I'm paying in US would be a great deal and it would very tough to go below that.


Are you using the same carrier to insure both, house and cars? If so, didn't they offer a multiple line discount?

Congratulations on your smooth transition!


----------



## TOBound (Jan 1, 2012)

Jrge said:


> Could you elaborate further on this? What type of documents were you actually asked for? Wasn't your credit score from the US more than enough?
> 
> 
> Are you using the same carrier to insure both, house and cars? If so, didn't they offer a multiple line discount?
> ...


Thanks. Happy to answer.

The credit score process was a bit weird. My (excellent) realtor recommended a mortgage broker who said that he did not have the ability to look at US credit scores. So I went to myfico dot com and printed the latest scores for myself and wife, scanned them, and sent the whole thing to him. I'm not really sure whether the bank who eventually approved the mortgage did or did not do a credit check but it all started with the mortgage broker asking me to run my own credit first! List of what gets asked for is pretty comprehensive and iterative: Pay check stubs for the last 1-3 months, depending on who is asking and when, all your sources of cash on-hand with each source documented for the last 3 months, your passport scan, driver's license scan, a recent credit card scan, letter of employment (multiple times you get asked this) with date starting in Canada with salary, last year's taxes, work permit scan. Same things for spouse. A passport scan for each of the kids. I'm sure I'm forgetting some stuff but that's the main list. It's very repetitive with the same info given the multiple parties involved when they ask.

I'm, indeed, looking to insure everything with one carrier so that rates I quoted actually take into account multiple line discount. Issue is I don't have a lot of access to the lower cost carriers, like TD, because the first question they ask is whether I have a Canadian driver's license. Allstate/Statefarm are more sophisticated and will try to build a risk profile based on assumptions they will make. Your rate basically is dependent on what kind of assumptions they bake in. The guy from Allstate spent 30 minutes with over phone so a lot of assumptions were closer to reality while I have no idea what the lady from Statefarm ended up assuming. For example, currently, I don't exist in Canadian systems anywhere. If an insurance carrier tries to 'find me' in the system, they will fail. So they make an assumption about me that will get a home insurance quote of $141/month. Now, since my wife is Canadian and has some history, if they run the same quote against her name, just by virtue of the fact that she is to be found in the Canadian systems, that $141/month quote becomes $70/month quote. The auto insurance quotes are all dependent on providing that we both have had driver's licenses for the last 15-20 years, that we both have had insurance for the last 6 years minimum (more is better), and that we haven't had excessive claims. Need to gather all that from the driver's bureau in states we have lived in and insurance companies we have been with. The key question in my mind is, as more is become known to insurance carriers over time and I get my Canadian driver's license, then will the rate go down again? My sense is that, yes, it will go down again.

Ask away if I can help clarify any of the above!


----------



## Jrge (Mar 22, 2011)

TOBound said:


> Thanks. Happy to answer.
> 
> The credit score process was a bit weird. My (excellent) realtor recommended a mortgage broker who said that he did not have the ability to look at US credit scores. So I went to myfico dot com and printed the latest scores for myself and wife, scanned them, and sent the whole thing to him. I'm not really sure whether the bank who eventually approved the mortgage did or did not do a credit check but it all started with the mortgage broker asking me to run my own credit first! List of what gets asked for is pretty comprehensive and iterative: Pay check stubs for the last 1-3 months, depending on who is asking and when, all your sources of cash on-hand with each source documented for the last 3 months, your passport scan, driver's license scan, a recent credit card scan, letter of employment (multiple times you get asked this) with date starting in Canada with salary, last year's taxes, work permit scan. Same things for spouse. A passport scan for each of the kids. I'm sure I'm forgetting some stuff but that's the main list. It's very repetitive with the same info given the multiple parties involved when they ask.


Even though I'm still in London, my Realtor in Edmonton told me she eventually will need: 1) Our SSN's. 2) Copies of our DL's, passports and the famous letter of employment. The one thing in particular she mentioned was, that If we wanted to buy right away we will need a down payment of 20% or we could wait 6 months to cut that in half.



TOBound said:


> I'm, indeed, looking to insure everything with one carrier so that rates I quoted actually take into account multiple line discount. Issue is I don't have a lot of access to the lower cost carriers, like TD, because the first question they ask is whether I have a Canadian driver's license. Allstate/Statefarm *are more sophisticated and will try to build a risk profile based on assumptions they will make*. Your rate basically is dependent on what kind of assumptions they bake in. The guy from Allstate spent 30 minutes with over phone so a lot of assumptions were closer to reality while I have no idea what the lady from Statefarm ended up assuming. For example, currently, I don't exist in Canadian systems anywhere. If an insurance carrier tries to 'find me' in the system, they will fail. So they make an assumption about me that will get a home insurance quote of $141/month. Now, since my wife is Canadian and has some history, if they run the same quote against her name, just by virtue of the fact that she is to be found in the Canadian systems, that $141/month quote becomes $70/month quote. The auto insurance quotes are all dependent on providing that we both have had driver's licenses for the last 15-20 years, that we both have had insurance for the last 6 years minimum (more is better), and that we haven't had excessive claims. Need to gather all that from the driver's bureau in states we have lived in and insurance companies we have been with. The key question in my mind is, as more is become known to insurance carriers over time and I get my Canadian driver's license, then will the rate go down again? My sense is that, yes, it will go down again.
> 
> Ask away if I can help clarify any of the above!


I hear ya. A friend of mine works for one of those carriers and that's exactly what "fantasy boy" does: Always assume.

However, homeowners insurance is greatly affected by little things like: having a fireplace, small children, age and location of your property, among others. 

Are you planning to get the Canadian DL's shortly after you move for good? FYI, most policies are adjusted every 6 months.

Thanks for sharing!

Animo
(Cheers)


----------



## TOBound (Jan 1, 2012)

Jrge said:


> Even though I'm still in London, my Realtor in Edmonton told me she eventually will need: 1) Our SSN's. 2) Copies of our DL's, passports and the famous letter of employment. The one thing in particular she mentioned was, that If we wanted to buy right away we will need a down payment of 20% or we could wait 6 months to cut that in half.
> 
> 
> I hear ya. A friend of mine works for one of those carriers and that's exactly what "fantasy boy" does: Always assume.
> ...


Yeah, be prepared to put down 20% or pay mortgage insurance. I don't think putting less than 15% will make any difference but significant lower down payments, may not get you the best rates.

I'm planning on getting Canadian DL literally as soon as I can. And I want the "full" version. Having driven for 23 years in US, it would be beyond ridiculous if I have to start out with some b/s starter DL but let's see


----------

