# Land Titles



## Missouri Bob (Feb 12, 2018)

Hi,

My Filipino wife and I are going to retire in the P.I. in a few years. I don't know if we will end up buying property or keep renting forever. For fun I look online at houses and property for sale. I've noticed that some of the ads say the land is titled. Others don't mention titles. Being from the U.S. I'm used to the idea that anytime you buy land you get a title. (Exception is the Quit Claim Deed.) I read a post in this forum from someone who writes about building a house on land that has no title.

My questions are: What happens if you build on land without a title and then 5 years later someone shows up and says that it's their land?

How common is it for people to buy land/house and not receive a title to the land?

I used to be a landlord in the U.S. before I retired. I can't conceive of buying land and not receiving a title to it.

Thanks.

Bob


----------



## Hey_Joe (Sep 13, 2016)

Best to google buying land in the Philippines and read all you can. Your Attorney here will help you with Title searches.

Titled Land prices, construction material is skyrocketing. A Life expectancy formula is now required here. If you retire here and expect to only live 10 or 20 more years then do the math. It may be best to rent and stay mobile, travel, enjoy your retirement.

I retired here at a young age, bought titled land in wife's name, me 50 year lease on the land, had all structures put in my name. If I was 60 or older, I would never buy & build unless it's a small shack.

One Expat I know retired here, spent big money building a house, met a younger more beautiful woman, divorced the wife, moved out of the house, so one never knows what may happen after one builds.


----------



## hogrider (May 25, 2010)

Hey_Joe said:


> Best to google buying land in the Philippines and read all you can. Your Attorney here will help you with Title searches.
> 
> Titled Land prices, construction material is skyrocketing. A Life expectancy formula is now required here. If you retire here and expect to only live 10 or 20 more years then do the math. It may be best to rent and stay mobile, travel, enjoy your retirement.
> 
> ...


As I understand the law here, you cannot lease from your wife, as in Philippines law you and your spouse are considered as the same entity.


----------



## Hey_Joe (Sep 13, 2016)

hogrider said:


> As I understand the law here, you cannot lease from your wife, as in Philippines law you and your spouse are considered as the same entity.


Talk to a good Attorney. They will tell you it's not possible for a Non Citizen to be considered as the "same entity". 

Attorney said the 50 year lease must appear to be "fair" to the Philippine wife and it will hold up in court.


----------



## bidrod (Mar 31, 2015)

Hey_Joe said:


> Talk to a good Attorney. They will tell you it's not possible for a Non Citizen to be considered as the "same entity".
> 
> Attorney said the 50 year lease must appear to be "fair" to the Philippine wife and it will hold up in court.



Unless the Good Attorney can site case law or Supreme Court decision it is not guaranteed that his premise is correct. 

Chuck


----------



## Hey_Joe (Sep 13, 2016)

bidrod said:


> Unless the Good Attorney can site case law or Supreme Court decision it is not guaranteed that his premise is correct.
> 
> Chuck


What is guaranteed is on the original Land Title in the remarks section is a large paragraph stating the notarized contract details that the property is under a 50 year lease, my name as the lessor, the land can not be sold, leased, etc. 

I guess the Attorneys, Government Registration of Deeds all got it wrong then is what you are suggesting?


----------



## Hey_Joe (Sep 13, 2016)

hogrider said:


> As I understand the law here, you cannot lease from your wife, as in Philippines law you and your spouse are considered as the same entity.


Forgot to add. Google Prenuptials Philippines. 

Google search result here. {moderator note: Changed Link}

Pre Nups would not be legal if "same entity" rule applied, same as 50 year lease does not apply to "same entity".

50 year lease is also permissible as a prenup


----------



## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

Welcome to the forum Missouri Bob, there is plenty of info within this site and as you can see active members with interesting contributions.
I'm sure you will find your answers to your original post.

Cheers, Steve.


----------



## hogrider (May 25, 2010)

Hey_Joe said:


> What is guaranteed is on the original Land Title in the remarks section is a large paragraph stating the notarized contract details that the property is under a 50 year lease, my name as the lessor, the land can not be sold, leased, etc.
> 
> I guess the Attorneys, Government Registration of Deeds all got it wrong then is what you are suggesting?


Steady Joe, no-one is suggesting that at all. Yes I have spoken to good attorney along with dozens of other foreigners in similar situation. Your attorney can say what he likes, doesn't make it lawful. I too have a notorised document stating that my wife has no objection to me constructing a house on the lot and such house will be registered in my name. I am also mentioned in the land title as well, which is about as much legal protection that i believe is possible within the laws of Philippines. Yes you can take out a lease on a lot of land and also add a proviso that it will be extended for a further similar period, just not from your wife.


----------



## Gary D (Oct 28, 2013)

hogrider said:


> Steady Joe, no-one is suggesting that at all. Yes I have spoken to good attorney along with dozens of other foreigners in similar situation. Your attorney can say what he likes, doesn't make it lawful. I too have a notorised document stating that my wife has no objection to me constructing a house on the lot and such house will be registered in my name. I am also mentioned in the land title as well, which is about as much legal protection that i believe is possible within the laws of Philippines. Yes you can take out a lease on a lot of land and also add a proviso that it will be extended for a further similar period, just not from your wife.


The lease priod is 50 year plus a further 25 years. If you are married the land becomes conjugal property so how can you lease from yourself. Plenty of attornys in the Philippines just waiting to tell you what you want to hear.


----------



## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

Missouri Bob, this may help.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Philippine...g_land_question_on_tax_declaration_vs_titled/

In our case we purchased a titled beachfront house and lot up in La Union (1,700M2), with this purchase came another tax declared lot, some 900m2 in front of our titled lot, this goes from our property boundary to the high tide mark as do all the properties set up by the developer 8 or 9 years ago and done with the intention to remove/negate squatters, some 12 or 13 properties. Obviously Government land but tax declared to help protect the real property owners,,,,,,,,, we hope.

Cheers, Steve.


----------



## Missouri Bob (Feb 12, 2018)

Thanks for all the replies. Steve (Bigpearl) provided a good link that explained the title vs tax declaration.

My wife of 28 years is from Cebu City. She has a large family there so we are looking at retiring to Cebu. If we live in Cebu City then we will probably rent for a few years. I'm hoping for a small hobby farm outside of the urban area. But any decision will have to wait until we actually move to the Philippines.


----------



## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

Found this interesting article that reflects a different scenario and one that also affects my family to greater and lesser degrees.

https://preview.tinyurl.com/y7c6dnvr

The outlaws are Squatters on PNR land (Philippines National Railway) and have been there for some 30 plus years, a nipa hut grew into a rendered concrete block house that takes up the whole 60M2 and a happy family with little but content. The concrete road that divides the properties holds a set of train lines as reinforcing. While they and the 10 plus family members that live along the government land don't hold title but appear to be able to sell as I have witnessed,,,,,, even offered to us (no thanks).

Interestingly there was a titled property at the rear of the sister in laws house for sale at a mere 500K on 120M2 with a 2 story rendered concrete home that needed lots of TLC. Seemed a steal until we discovered it was land locked with the only access through the SILs house,,,,,,,, yes through their house.
A vacant block directly behind this property gave direct access to the house, my partners family approached the supposed owners to see if the would consider selling and at what price,,,,,,, no it's not for sale. As the price of this house plummeted over the last 4 years down to 200K was sold to guess who.
Perhaps the title holder should have fought for his rights 30 odd years ago when the squatters moved in on a defunct rail system that was taken out by a typhoon with no funds to restore. 
Have asked why the family don't seek some sort of title, response "a waste of money and no need"

As mentioned by others and myself be careful, due diligence and local knowledge.

Sorry for the rant.

Cheers, Steve.


----------



## JShannon (Jan 28, 2014)

Missouri Bob said:


> Hi,
> 
> My Filipino wife and I are going to retire in the P.I. in a few years. I don't know if we will end up buying property or keep renting forever. For fun I look online at houses and property for sale. I've noticed that some of the ads say the land is titled. Others don't mention titles. Being from the U.S. I'm used to the idea that anytime you buy land you get a title. (Exception is the Quit Claim Deed.) I read a post in this forum from someone who writes about building a house on land that has no title.
> 
> ...


If you build on land that you don't hold the title to you are a squatter, whoever holds the title could get a court order to get you evicted. 

Not too common for people to buy property where there is no title as far as I know and a person would be foolish to do such a thing. Somebody still holds a title to the property.

If you buy property here be very very careful to make sure the title is free and clear, taxes paid, any estate taxes paid if the titled owner has passed away. Would be quite a quagmire if the title was still in the name of a person who died 50 years ago. A lot of property is handed down to the eldest of the next generation when the older ones pass on without any formal change of ownership on the title.

We learned the hard way, took us 2 yrs 6 months and 2 days after we bought it to get the title in our hands. Make sure you find out what your lawyer here is going to do for you. We ended up doing pretty much all of the legwork to jump through the endless hoops that we encountered along the way.

I guess I was naive in thinking that a lawyer here would handle all that was required as they do back home. Neither of us had bought land here before and nobody we knew were familiar with the process to offer any advice.

Caveat emptor.


----------



## fmartin_gila (May 15, 2011)

We are in exactly the same situation and it has now been 3 years & 4 months with no clear title in sight but hopefully forthcoming within the next 12 months. We have even had to go scouting in the different graveyards here to find death dates of 2 of the past owners as the son who inherited the property could not recall when they passed.

Fred


----------



## JShannon (Jan 28, 2014)

Well Fred, all I can say is that I feel your pain, wow, I thought ours was messed up. I had to give up trying to keep track of what was going on and just let the Asawa deal with it and them, I think it would have given me a coronary otherwise. Crazy.

Cheers Jerry


----------



## Missouri Bob (Feb 12, 2018)

JShannon said:


> If you build on land that you don't hold the title to you are a squatter, whoever holds the title could get a court order to get you evicted.
> 
> Not too common for people to buy property where there is no title as far as I know and a person would be foolish to do such a thing. Somebody still holds a title to the property.
> 
> ...


Right. That's why I was wondering about the listings that say "tax declaration" instead of title. I used to be a landlord and in the U.S. A title search is a basic part of buying property. And I can't imagine waiting for years after I buy land to receive the title. My wife's family has a lot of educated professionals so if we do buy I should be able to get some good recommendations for a lawyer. 

-- The city was widening the road in front of one of my rental houses with a state grant. They were taking 4 or 5 inches of land from everyone and paying about $700. Okay. No problem, just give me a check. The house next door to mine was one of those houses where the grandparents had built it, lived in it and died. The grown children inherited it. Some of the children had died or divorced. These children had kids of their own. So now grandchildren are involved. Unfortunately the title on the house had not been updated when the grandparents died. It was just the old family homestead and no one worried about the title. The city just wanted to give someone $700. But they first had to do genealogical research to trace the family history. Then settle who got what share. I'm sure it cost the city more than the $700 to straighten out that mess. 

Thanks everyone!

Bob


----------



## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

Missouri Bob said:


> Right. That's why I was wondering about the listings that say "tax declaration" instead of title. I used to be a landlord and in the U.S. A title search is a basic part of buying property. And I can't imagine waiting for years after I buy land to receive the title. My wife's family has a lot of educated professionals so if we do buy I should be able to get some good recommendations for a lawyer.
> 
> -- The city was widening the road in front of one of my rental houses with a state grant. They were taking 4 or 5 inches of land from everyone and paying about $700. Okay. No problem, just give me a check. The house next door to mine was one of those houses where the grandparents had built it, lived in it and died. The grown children inherited it. Some of the children had died or divorced. These children had kids of their own. So now grandchildren are involved. Unfortunately the title on the house had not been updated when the grandparents died. It was just the old family homestead and no one worried about the title. The city just wanted to give someone $700. But they first had to do genealogical research to trace the family history. Then settle who got what share. I'm sure it cost the city more than the $700 to straighten out that mess.
> 
> ...


Hey Bob, again slowly slowly, as my dear old dad used to say " fools rush in".
Even buying a titled property has it's ups and downs in PH, I have purchased countless properties over the last 40 years and never a problem in Oz. The titled house and lot and the tax declared lot we purchased in La Union last March 2017, nearly 11 months on with no sign of the title,,,,,,,,, soon we are told, there was a delay in the previous owner paying his late taxes,,,,, a mere PHP 14,000 which pushed settlement from 30 days to 90 days then there were problems with BIR and valuations but we are advised the titles should be ready to pick up when we are there next month....... one hopes as we have heard that said in many instances before in this fine country. Not really worried as it will eventually be sorted and not costing us anything just interesting how long a relatively simple transaction can be so slow.

Do get a good Attorney if you do purchase. There is also plenty of info on google (our best friend) with regards to legal procedures purchasing both titled, tax declared and quite a few other variations on untitled lands but with apparent "rights" that can be sold.

Again, good luck with your research.

Cheers, Steve.


----------



## Asian Spirit (Mar 1, 2010)

Missouri Bob said:


> Right. That's why I was wondering about the listings that say "tax declaration" instead of title. I used to be a landlord and in the U.S. A title search is a basic part of buying property. And I can't imagine waiting for years after I buy land to receive the title. My wife's family has a lot of educated professionals so if we do buy I should be able to get some good recommendations for a lawyer.
> 
> -- The city was widening the road in front of one of my rental houses with a state grant. They were taking 4 or 5 inches of land from everyone and paying about $700. Okay. No problem, just give me a check. The house next door to mine was one of those houses where the grandparents had built it, lived in it and died. The grown children inherited it. Some of the children had died or divorced. These children had kids of their own. So now grandchildren are involved. Unfortunately the title on the house had not been updated when the grandparents died. It was just the old family homestead and no one worried about the title. The city just wanted to give someone $700. But they first had to do genealogical research to trace the family history. Then settle who got what share. I'm sure it cost the city more than the $700 to straighten out that mess.
> 
> ...


Bob,

All the info you are getting here is true and correct-not speculation or guesses. You have absolutely no idea how different life is here and the countless "surprises" you are going to encounter. As the old saying has it, This aint Kansas or in this case Missouri. All the pieces of life's puzzles are here. Problem is that none fit together. Nothing, not even banks or phone companies are interconnected. It will drive you nuts in short order if you let it. I've lived here married for 15 years now and still can't figure out why the country doesn't collapse on itself and sink into the ocean.

Main thing is this. Do not let anyone, wife or otherwise talk you into buying land and or a house right away. Remember, even married you as a foreign citizen can not own land - period. You would be buying something you can never own and if your relationship/marriage goes south you have no recourse and will be owner of 100% of nothing. Be smart--rent first just to be very sure. It will hurt nothing. No matter how in love you are, no matter how sure you think you are---don't rush into ANYTHING. This is a developing and sometimes very dangerous 3rd would country that can turn you into fish food!


----------



## bigpearl (Jan 24, 2016)

Bob, I and I am sure most others would agree that there are lots of negatives here in PH and rereading this thread there is caution and negativity thrown constantly up with good reason.

I want to add to this though as a contributor and may go off topic, but. Through all the frustrating ludicrous obstacles thrown in front of me over the years these are readily overlooked because of the plentiful good points of this country and its people. Honestly it's not that bad just a different mindset and different rules that one has to adapt to (very carefully) and smile/take it on the chin when things are different to what we are used to. If it was so bad there would not be expats living here. It took me a few years of living, working and traveling there before I decided it was a country I was prepared to live in for my retirement years. 7 years on my thoughts have not changed, not long to go for me now before the final move.

Just an opinion.

Cheers, Steve.


----------

