# Want to be a citizen? Better speak Spanish and know a bit about history.



## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Los inmigrantes tendr?n que superar pruebas de idioma y cultura para nacionalizarse. eldiariomontanes.es

While the decision used to be in a judge's hands, it will now be in the hands of what seems to be an online test about Spanish language and history. The proposed language level is an A2 on the European Framework which is quite generous on Spain's part. I think it would be pretty easy to get to an A2 level if you're living in Spain and integrated into Spanish society. 

How many of you are applying for Spanish citizenship? What do you think of the changes?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

elenetxu said:


> Los inmigrantes tendr?n que superar pruebas de idioma y cultura para nacionalizarse. eldiariomontanes.es
> 
> While the decision used to be in a judge's hands, it will now be in the hands of what seems to be an online test about Spanish language and history. The proposed language level is an A2 on the European Framework which is quite generous on Spain's part. I think it would be pretty easy to get to an A2 level if you're living in Spain and integrated into Spanish society.
> 
> How many of you are applying for Spanish citizenship? What do you think of the changes?


OK, before panic sets in, this is an idea at this stage and probably wouldn't come into effect, if it ever does, for a couple of years.
I think, why not? Why shouldn't the Spanish government, or the government of any country expect its citizens to know something about the country they're going to live in. It can only be beneficial for future citizens to be able to say something in the native language, surely? So on paper it looks good.
However, like most things the more complicated paperwork becomes the more open to money making, corruption and malpractice it is. Just yesterday I was reading an article about similar exams in the UK and how they've been suspended as fraud and corruption has been exposed. (Candidates being read out the answers in the exam rooms, other people coming into to the exam rooms to take the place of the real candidates...)
Anyway, that's the final push for me. I'm getting this rolling today before all this comes into play. Thanks elenetxu!!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

They've had a citizenship test in the UK for a year now. Apparently quite a lot of Brits couldn't pass it. Should they be required to leave the country? 

UK citizenship test: Could you pass on British history? | UK news | theguardian.com


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

It is the language tests that have been suspended. Incredible!!
BBC News - Student visa system fraud exposed in BBC investigation


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## Trubrit (Nov 24, 2010)

*No thanks*

Possibly Alcaina but please don't send them here


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> OK, before panic sets in, this is an idea at this stage and probably wouldn't come into effect, if it ever does, for a couple of years.
> I think, why not? Why shouldn't the Spanish government, or the government of any country expect its citizens to know something about the country they're going to live in. It can only be beneficial for future citizens to be able to say something in the native language, surely? So on paper it looks good.
> However, like most things the more complicated paperwork becomes the more open to money making, corruption and malpractice it is. Just yesterday I was reading an article about similar exams in the UK and how they've been suspended as fraud and corruption has been exposed. (Candidates being read out the answers in the exam rooms, other people coming into to the exam rooms to take the place of the real candidates...)
> Anyway, that's the final push for me. I'm getting this rolling today before all this comes into play. Thanks elenetxu!!



I agree - why not? A2 isn't exactly hard!

the 6 Latvian girls who were here on an exchange for 3 months last year passed that level despite most of the teaching at the school being in Valenciano  & none of them being able to answer ¿cómo te llamas? when they arrived 

they did have an hour a day of Spanish lessons, though they all said they didn't understand any of what they were being 'taught' .... mostly they were just learning lots of vocab by joining words to pictures on sheets of paper!


I'm with you though - even though I'm sure I wouldn't have a problem with the language requirement, nor any 'integration' requirement they might dream up, & I KNOW my daughters wouldn't - this does mean it will be sooner now, rather than later that we get this particular ball rolling


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

If nothing else for the cost because if this does go through you and you have to do a DELE for example... The Cambridge exam equivalent (KET) costs 95€ for example!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> They've had a citizenship test in the UK for a year now. Apparently quite a lot of Brits couldn't pass it. Should they be required to leave the country?
> 
> UK citizenship test: Could you pass on British history? | UK news | theguardian.com


In most cases, probably yes


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> In most cases, probably yes


I just did it...... good job I already left


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Our applications for nationality went in last year, we just needed two witnesses for character references, we now await the result.

A friend from Venezuela, who now has Spanish nationality, told me his application took 18 months, but the chap at the local court told us about eight months, the sooner the better my passport expires this year.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Hepa said:


> Our applications for nationality went in last year, we just needed two witnesses for character references, we now await the result.
> 
> A friend from Venezuela, who now has Spanish nationality, told me his application took 18 months, but the chap at the local court told us about eight months, the sooner the better my passport expires this year.


ooh that's another reason - the girls' passports expire next year!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

I just did it and the answer to question 4 is wrong:
_You answered incorrectly_
_4. When did the English first impose English laws on Wales and the Welsh?

Correct answer: The first half of the 16th Century_

Edward I first imposed English law on Wales and the Welsh
Quote" After suppressing a minor rebellion in Wales in 1276–77, Edward responded to a second rebellion in 1282–83 with a full-scale war of conquest. After a successful campaign, Edward subjected Wales to English rule" 

so that makes the correct answer 13th Century.

Out of interest I got 12 but it should have been 13


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## fergie (Oct 4, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> They've had a citizenship test in the UK for a year now. Apparently quite a lot of Brits couldn't pass it. Should they be required to leave the country?
> 
> UK citizenship test: Could you pass on British history? | UK news | theguardian.com


Enjoyed doing the life in the UK test, I can keep my passport


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## andoba (Jan 12, 2014)

The language part seems completely reasonable. With strictly an A2 level, you can barely survive out there. I understand that a Spanish citizen, that can become a police officer, fireman or woman, vote in national elections and become a politician must know enough of a common language as to communicate with it's fellow citizens.

The history bit doesn't seem so much necessary for me though.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> I just did it and the answer to question 4 is wrong:
> _You answered incorrectly_
> _4. When did the English first impose English laws on Wales and the Welsh?
> 
> ...


Ditto! I was too quick and did the test without specs so I wrote North American instead of North Atlantic for NATO but as that wasn't a real mistake I'm claiming 13!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xabiachica said:


> I just did it...... good job I already left


I did say in most cases..


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I did say in most cases..


some of them were wild guesses - some I knew

I've done a different one in the past & got nearly full marks - more general knowledge things though


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

I failed!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

extranjero said:


> I failed!


Well, that's you stuck here in Spain forever


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## rewdan (Feb 23, 2010)

i failed too!


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> Well, that's you stuck here in Spain forever


Why' did I know you'd say that!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

So, I got in touch with a gestor who several American friends of mine have used when they did the whole nationality thing.
She said it would cost between 250€ and 300€ and would take around 2 years!
I was little surprised at the cost. I've never used a gestor before but I can't face running around all the pokey offices to get papers stamped, none of which I'd be able to do where I actually live. And 2 years? Seems a long time for a very straightforward case. Maybe she's just thinking about Americans?


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> So, I got in touch with a gestor who several American friends of mine have used when they did the whole nationality thing.
> She said it would cost between 250€ and 300€ and would take around 2 years!
> I was little surprised at the cost. I've never used a gestor before but I can't face running around all the pokey offices to get papers stamped, none of which I'd be able to do where I actually live. And 2 years? Seems a long time for a very straightforward case. Maybe she's just thinking about Americans?


Costs:

Checks for U.K. convictions, 10 pounds sterling , per person 

Apostille all documents, we had, two cert. of birth, two conviction checks, and a marriage cert, five in total cost 164.50 pounds sterling, inc. fedex return.

Translation of documents, seven in total, €160

Total costs for two people €160 plus 184.50 pounds sterling = € 224.228,

Gran Total for two €384.228.

The preparation of documents and local checks cost nothing and were completed by the adminstrator the court rooms.

We do not use a gestor, found them to be expensive, lacking knowledge and unreliable.


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> So, I got in touch with a gestor who several American friends of mine have used when they did the whole nationality thing.
> She said it would cost between 250€ and 300€ and would take around 2 years!
> I was little surprised at the cost. I've never used a gestor before but I can't face running around all the pokey offices to get papers stamped, none of which I'd be able to do where I actually live. And 2 years? Seems a long time for a very straightforward case. Maybe she's just thinking about Americans?


It cost me 35GBP to get my birth certificate apostilled and 70€ to get it translated, 3,10€ for a Certificado de Antecedentes penales and apart from photocopies of my passport, health card and unemployment benefit slip and a certificado de empadronamiento, I needed nothing else. Unfortunately the woman who dealt with my application at the registro civil sent off my original birth certificate instead of making "una copia compulsada" which she should have done, as I was later informed. I didn't have to have a personal interview with her when I told her I had been living here since 1974 but I did have to go to an interview at the foreigner's department about three months later, but this was a mere formality as the person I had to see had known me for over twenty years. I was told it will take about a year. I should get a letter from someone (ministerio de justicia, I think) with a dossier number so I can trace my applicaton online but I'm not holding my breath as I should have received it prior to my interview. Now I just have to find out how I can obtain a copy of my birth certificate


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

anles said:


> It cost me 35GBP to get my birth certificate apostilled and 70€ to get it translated, 3,10€ for a Certificado de Antecedentes penales and apart from photocopies of my passport, health card and unemployment benefit slip and a certificado de empadronamiento, I needed nothing else. Unfortunately the woman who dealt with my application at the registro civil sent off my original birth certificate instead of making "una copia compulsada" which she should have done, as I was later informed. I didn't have to have a personal interview with her when I told her I had been living here since 1974 but I did have to go to an interview at the foreigner's department about three months later, but this was a mere formality as the person I had to see had known me for over twenty years. I was told it will take about a year. I should get a letter from someone (ministerio de justicia, I think) with a dossier number so I can trace my applicaton online but I'm not holding my breath as I should have received it prior to my interview. Now I just have to find out how I can obtain a copy of my birth certificate


I can tell you that 
From here
https://www.gov.uk/order-copy-birth-death-marriage-certificate
My original got left behind in Bogotá. I was living in Cali and for some reason to get it back I was supposed to travel to Bogotá. I didn't seem worth it.
So you think it's pretty manageable? I don't live in Madrid and I don't want to be having to go to the city every 5 minutes at 6am to queue for an appointment in such and such office
I just remember taking a friend to and from government offices endlessly when she was doing it, but she is American, was doing for the whole family and there are several double nationalities in that family too
PS Just thought of an advantage that I have. My BIL is a traductor jurado


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I can tell you that
> From here
> https://www.gov.uk/order-copy-birth-death-marriage-certificate
> My original got left behind in Bogotá. I was living in Cali and for some reason to get it back I was supposed to travel to Bogotá. I didn't seem worth it.
> ...


Thank you very much for that  I sent my birth certificate off to be translated and apostilled but, after that, it ony involved two trips to the registro civil, one to get the information and the certificate for the penales and one to hand everything in. And two trips to the town hall the first certificado de empadronamiento had to state how long I had lived in Spain although I could only prove as far back as 1996 due to the lack of a NIE prior to 1991, (even though I have actually lived here since 1974, but that is just one of the idiosyncracies of bureaucracy) and a second one prior to my interview for a certificado stating exactly how many people live with me. This was a bit embarrassing as it looked as though I lived in a "piso patera" because besides myself and my two daughters who do actually live here, I also have a friend's daughter who is registered here as she has been living with us from September to June to study for the past three years, and my eldest son, his girlfriend and their baby are also registered here although at the time were no longer living here (but they were unable to register where they did live as the house belonged to my mum but she had passed away) and my younger son was still registered here although at the time he was living with his dad (because when he was in the army his sister had occupied his room and it was much more peaceful there than in a house with four women! But as I say, luckily the guy in extranjería knew me and my circumstances!!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

anles said:


> Thank you very much for that  I sent my birth certificate off to be translated and apostilled but, after that, it ony involved two trips to the registro civil, one to get the information and the certificate for the penales and one to hand everything in. And two trips to the town hall the first certificado de empadronamiento had to state how long I had lived in Spain although I could only prove as far back as 1996 due to the lack of a NIE prior to 1991, (even though I have actually lived here since 1974, but that is just one of the idiosyncracies of bureaucracy) and a second one prior to my interview for a certificado stating exactly how many people live with me. This was a bit embarrassing as it looked as though I lived in a "piso patera" because besides myself and my two daughters who do actually live here, I also have a friend's daughter who is registered here as she has been living with us from September to June to study for the past three years, and my eldest son, his girlfriend and their baby are also registered here although at the time were no longer living here (but they were unable to register where they did live as the house belonged to my mum but she had passed away) and my younger son was still registered here although at the time he was living with his dad (because when he was in the army his sister had occupied his room and it was much more peaceful there than in a house with four women! But as I say, luckily the guy in extranjería knew me and my circumstances!!



is there a financial requirement?

we had planned to do this before my elder daughter hit 18 - but what with one thing & another we didn't

she's worried that she'll have to show that she can support herself - which she can't, what with still being in education full time


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> is there a financial requirement?
> 
> we had planned to do this before my elder daughter hit 18 - but what with one thing & another we didn't
> 
> she's worried that she'll have to show that she can support herself - which she can't, what with still being in education full time


Yes, I had to prove I had an income, the same as when you now apply to be on the foreigners' register. However, if you are still supporting your daughter, the fact that she is 18 shouldn't matter. She is still living with you, is covered by your healthcare and is your dependant.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

anles said:


> Yes, I had to prove I had an income, the same as when you now apply to be on the foreigners' register. However, if you are still supporting your daughter, the fact that she is 18 shouldn't matter. She is still living with you, is covered by your healthcare and is your dependant.


she'll be relieved....

I now have to 'prove' I can support 3 of us........


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

anles said:


> I Now I just have to find out how I can obtain a copy of my birth certificate


You can order one online from the General Register Office in the UK (I had to when we moved here as whilst packing I discovered I'd somehow managed to lose the original). Make sure you get the official site though, there are some "helpful" companies on the web who offer the same thing at considerably higher prices.


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## agua642 (May 24, 2009)

Hi 
Am I missing a point here, why bother going to all the bother & hassle & time! Cost etc to become a Spanish citizen, when you can just become a permanent resident & keep your British citizen. I don't get it, or like I said.. am i missing the point here 😳


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

agua642 said:


> Hi
> Am I missing a point here, why bother going to all the bother & hassle & time! Cost etc to become a Spanish citizen, when you can just become a permanent resident & keep your British citizen. I don't get it, or like I said.. am i missing the point here 😳


Maybe it is relevant for US citizens who want to renounce their US citizenship to get away from the US's punitive tax regime (no matter hwre you are in the world you still have to pay US tax if you are a US citizen, or so I've been told)


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

agua642 said:


> Hi
> Am I missing a point here, why bother going to all the bother & hassle & time! Cost etc to become a Spanish citizen, when you can just become a permanent resident & keep your British citizen. I don't get it, or like I said.. am i missing the point here 😳


For me it's more like why wouldn't I become a Spanish citizen?


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

agua642 said:


> Hi
> Am I missing a point here, why bother going to all the bother & hassle & time! Cost etc to become a Spanish citizen, when you can just become a permanent resident & keep your British citizen. I don't get it, or like I said.. am i missing the point here 😳


In my own case, I have three reasons for wanting to obtain Spanish citizenship. Firstly, I have lived here all my life and I want to be able to vote in the general and autonomous elections. Secondly, things have changed twice for residents since April 2007. The first time, they introduced the law by which you had to register after 90 days but at the time all you needed was a photocopy of your passport. Then later you had to have proof of income and healthcare. Permanent residents didn't have to fulfil this requirement, but who knows how long this will last? Finally, since I'm a British citizen and no longer have my little photographic ID, I have to use my passport (although I do still have my old card and use this as ID but if I need photocopies for anything, it's no good as it expired in 2012) but my passport number changes when I renew it, plus it takes several weeks to get a new one during which time I will be without proof of ID. Even if I take on Spanish citizenship, I don't have to give up my own. All my children have both nationalities. I can understand why there requirements for new residents Spain being in the state it is, but there must be other people like myself who don't have the option of returning to their country of origin. No matter how bad things get here, it's the only life I have known and I know how to survive here, I wouldn't know where to start in the UK.


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## Allie-P (Feb 11, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> I just did it...... good job I already left




Likewise !! I scored 10 points *and *the shame of it - I included N. Ireland in the first question.

Until then, I considered myself of average intelligence


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Allie-P said:


> Likewise !! I scored 10 points *and *the shame of it - I included N. Ireland in the first question.
> 
> Until then, I considered myself of average intelligence



it's nothing to do with intelligence though is it?

just random facts - I'm usually good at those though


I think I'd better get started on our applications for Spanish citizenship asap - if I can't answer those kind of questions about the country where I spent most of my life I'd stand no chance in Spain!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> it's nothing to do with intelligence though is it?
> 
> just random facts - I'm usually good at those though
> 
> ...


Exactly


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

anles said:


> In my own case, I have three reasons for wanting to obtain Spanish citizenship. Firstly, I have lived here all my life and I want to be able to vote in the general and autonomous elections. Secondly, things have changed twice for residents since April 2007. The first time, they introduced the law by which you had to register after 90 days but at the time all you needed was a photocopy of your passport. Then later you had to have proof of income and healthcare. Permanent residents didn't have to fulfil this requirement, but who knows how long this will last? Finally, since I'm a British citizen and no longer have my little photographic ID, I have to use my passport (although I do still have my old card and use this as ID but if I need photocopies for anything, it's no good as it expired in 2012) but my passport number changes when I renew it, plus it takes several weeks to get a new one during which time I will be without proof of ID. Even if I take on Spanish citizenship, I don't have to give up my own. All my children have both nationalities. I can understand why there requirements for new residents Spain being in the state it is, but there must be other people like myself who don't have the option of returning to their country of origin. No matter how bad things get here, it's the only life I have known and I know how to survive here, I wouldn't know where to start in the UK.


If you have a Spanish driving licence - it is officially recognised as an I.D. and I always use that if I have to give my NIE.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

baldilocks said:


> If you have a Spanish driving licence - it is officially recognised as an I.D. and I always use that if I have to give my NIE.


Actually it isn't.
Shops etc usually accept it, but they don't have to. They do because it would be suicide not to.
I have to show my passport and A4 certificate when I go to the tax office, the soc sec office and the bank. Most people don't have to go to these places very often, but I have to go to sign on and off autonomo at the beginning and end of the academic year, and the bank I go to about once evry 18 months. If you have dealings with police, guardia civil etc above traffic issues you'll also need more than a driving licence and if you have minors in your care you can bet that you're going to need other ID sooner or later.
Different lives, different needs


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Actually it isn't.
> Shops etc usually accept it, but they don't have to. They do because it would be suicide not to.
> I have to show my passport and A4 certificate when I go to the tax office, the soc sec office and the bank. Most people don't have to go to these places very often, but I have to go to sign on and off autonomo at the beginning and end of the academic year, and the bank I go to about once evry 18 months. If you have dealings with police, guardia civil etc above traffic issues you'll also need more than a driving licence and if you have minors in your care you can bet that you're going to need other ID sooner or later.
> Different lives, different needs


and that's another good reason - I'd rather carry an easily & cheaply replaceable DNI card than a bulky & stupidly expensive to replace passport!


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## agua642 (May 24, 2009)

Hi all, ok I can understand the need for individuals to want to change from British citizen to Spanish citizen but do we think it's necessary. 
Reason I ask is because my daughter was born in Balearics Spain in 1995 however I registered as a British citizen and she has a British birth certificate. She was also registered in the Balearics log registry office etc. she has lived in Spain all her life, we are living in the Valencia region.
she has a British passport , turned 18 last year with permanent Spanish residency. If I was to return to Uk would she be able to stay here & rent & study in Uni, obviously she would need support from her parents. Would she find it easier to change her nationality to Spanish? I've never be too sure about her giving up her British citizenship as I think it holds more values & opens more doors then a Spanish nationality. What do others think?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

agua642 said:


> Hi all, ok I can understand the need for individuals to want to change from British citizen to Spanish citizen but do we think it's necessary.
> Reason I ask is because my daughter was born in Balearics Spain in 1995 however I registered as a British citizen and she has a British birth certificate. She was also registered in the Balearics log registry office etc. she has lived in Spain all her life, we are living in the Valencia region.
> she has a British passport , turned 18 last year with permanent Spanish residency. If I was to return to Uk would she be able to stay here & rent & study in Uni, obviously she would need support from her parents. Would she find it easier to change her nationality to Spanish? I've never be too sure about her giving up her British citizenship as I think it holds more values & opens more doors then a Spanish nationality. What do others think?


I don't know, but that British Citizenship "holds more values" is very debatable.
That it "opens more doors" is possibly true today, and possibly in the future with no guarantees, but you would also need to ask which doors you want to open


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## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

agua642 said:


> Hi all, ok I can understand the need for individuals to want to change from British citizen to Spanish citizen but do we think it's necessary.
> Reason I ask is because my daughter was born in Balearics Spain in 1995 however I registered as a British citizen and she has a British birth certificate. She was also registered in the Balearics log registry office etc. she has lived in Spain all her life, we are living in the Valencia region.
> she has a British passport , turned 18 last year with permanent Spanish residency. If I was to return to Uk would she be able to stay here & rent & study in Uni, obviously she would need support from her parents. Would she find it easier to change her nationality to Spanish? I've never be too sure about her giving up her British citizenship as I think it holds more values & opens more doors then a Spanish nationality. What do others think?


Why would she give up her British citizenship? My children have both nationalities. It cost me money to register their births at the British embassy, something I wasn't very happy about as here it cost me nothing. I wasn't very happy when their passports cost me 180€ while a Spanish passport at the time cost 16€ and you got it straight away, but I wanted them to have more options in life. Now my two sons have moved to my hometown in the UK so it was well worthwhile, with their passports they had no problem getting NI numbers, starting work and everything has been simple and stress-free. If I get Spanish citizenship, I want be giving up my British nationality.


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## agua642 (May 24, 2009)

My daughter would need to apply for Spanish citizenship as both her parents are Btitish, but she was born in Spain as I said in previous post. So if she decides to apply for Her Spanish citizenship which I'm assuming she'll get no problem! Can she reapply for her British citizenship, even tho she's never lived in UK ?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

agua642 said:


> My daughter would need to apply for Spanish citizenship as both her parents are Btitish, but she was born in Spain as I said in previous post. So if she decides to apply for Her Spanish citizenship which I'm assuming she'll get no problem! Can she reapply for her British citizenship, even tho she's never lived in UK ?


She is British because she was born to British parents, and that's not going to change, is it? It's not land, but blood that denotes the nationality in this case. It's the Spanish nationality that she'll have to apply for, not the British. She, as anles has already said, will not "lose" one passport because she has another.


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## agua642 (May 24, 2009)

Thanks pesky wesky 

As far as I'm aware tho she has to renounce her British passport then apply for a Spanish passport and then when she wants reapply for the British passport! So in your opinion she won't get refused when she reapplies for a British passport. ?


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

agua642 said:


> Thanks pesky wesky
> 
> As far as I'm aware tho she has to renounce her British passport then apply for a Spanish passport and then when she wants reapply for the British passport! So in your opinion she won't get refused when she reapplies for a British passport. ?


The UK will not allow any one to renounce their UK citizenship. If you have it, then as far as I understand, you can't loose it.

Whilst Spain does NOT recognise dual nationality/citizenship, they can't actually do anything about it.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

agua642 said:


> Thanks pesky wesky
> 
> As far as I'm aware tho she has to renounce her British passport then apply for a Spanish passport and then when she wants reapply for the British passport! So in your opinion she won't get refused when she reapplies for a British passport. ?


As I haven't actually done it, I prefer that someone else replies. However, I think you have the answer in snikpoh and anles's replies above.


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## Brangus (May 1, 2010)

From El Pais: As of mid-2015, applying for citizenship will likely cost 75 euros, plus the cost of enrollment for language and integration tests

Pedir la nacionalidad costará 75 euros | Política | EL PAÍS

_Cada año entran en el registro del ministerio unas 140.000 solicitudes de nacionalidad; el 85% se concede, pero con unos* tiempos de tramitación de dos, tres o hasta cuatro años*....
_
("Every year the Justice Ministry receives about 140,000 citizenship applications; 85% are granted, but with *processing times of two, three or up to four years*....")

[...]

_El Ministerio de Justicia ... asegura que el dinero recaudado — unos 52 millones de euros en cinco años— se invertirá en modernizar el sistema tecnológico para agilizar los plazos de concesión de nacionalidades._

("The ministry assures that the revenue -- about 52 million euros in five years -- will be spent on modernizing the technological system so as to streamline the processing times.") :flypig:


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Actually it isn't.
> Shops etc usually accept it, but they don't have to. They do because it would be suicide not to.
> I have to show my passport and A4 certificate when I go to the tax office, the soc sec office and the bank. Most people don't have to go to these places very often, but I have to go to sign on and off autonomo at the beginning and end of the academic year, and the bank I go to about once evry 18 months. If you have dealings with police, guardia civil etc above traffic issues you'll also need more than a driving licence and if you have minors in your care you can bet that you're going to need other ID sooner or later.
> Different lives, different needs


Apart from a notary everyone here will accept a spanish DL as proof. I specifically asked the question when doing reports in the GC & was told that it was perfectly acceptable as it had the nie number on which ,if they so wished, they could pull up all & everything about me. 
Bank wanted photo id for the wife a couple of weeks back. I gave them photo copies of her passport & spanish DL & they scanned them in. She isn't back home until this week . :lol:
The 'green' form I haven't used since signing on for healthcare at the inss office in 2012. I think that's the first time since I obtained it in 2007.

P.S. A child born in Spain of foreign parents & remining in Spain , has at the age of 18 , 2 years with which to decide if they wish to take up Spanish nationality. More or less automatic , subject to the usual paper chase.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Brangus said:


> From El Pais: As of mid-2015, applying for citizenship will likely cost 75 euros, plus the cost of enrollment for language and integration tests


Sounds reasonable compared to the £902 it costs in the UK - plus £80 if you want to take part in a ceremony.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fees-for-citizenship-applications


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> Apart from a notary everyone here will accept a spanish DL as proof. I specifically asked the question when doing reports in the GC & was told that it was perfectly acceptable as it had the nie number on which ,if they so wished, they could pull up all & everything about me.
> Bank wanted photo id for the wife a couple of weeks back. I gave them photo copies of her passport & spanish DL & they scanned them in. She isn't back home until this week . :lol:
> The 'green' form I haven't used since signing on for healthcare at the inss office in 2012. I think that's the first time since I obtained it in 2007.
> 
> P.S. A child born in Spain of foreign parents & remining in Spain , has at the age of 18 , 2 years with which to decide if they wish to take up Spanish nationality. More or less automatic , subject to the usual paper chase.


Well here, as I said, in banks and official entities like the tax office and employment office they need the darned A4 green paper and I don't know why.
I think they'll forget it all soon as, as we all know, the driving licence has far more info on it and all in one place.The ultimate proof of that being that you could use a driving licence as proof of identity in the recent elections.


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## Brangus (May 1, 2010)

Yes, Spain still would be cheap in comparison -- but probably a lot slower than the UK, too. I wonder if there will be a surge of applications for Spanish citizenship from people who want to avoid paying for a something that has been free, and also avoid the added bureaucracy of exams.

The processing times could get worse before they get better.



Alcalaina said:


> Sounds reasonable compared to the £902 it costs in the UK - plus £80 if you want to take part in a ceremony.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Brangus said:


> Yes, Spain still would be cheap in comparison -- but probably a lot slower than the UK, too. I wonder if there will be a surge of applications for Spanish citizenship from people who want to avoid paying for a something that has been free, and also avoid the added bureaucracy of exams.
> 
> The processing times could get worse before they get better.


Gosh, as long as it doesn't become like it is to go to the US, we're ok. 

:behindsofa:

OH and I are here because moving to the US would have been an expensive nightmare.


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## Brangus (May 1, 2010)

For those who intend to apply for citizenship, I was trying to give a heads-up as to a potentially longer processing time, not so much the cost. Here in Albacete it can take more than 6 months just to get the initial appointment to turn in the documents.

When you hear estimates of 2 years to obtain citizenship, they probably go from the date the application is actually submitted, not from the time the applicant took action to schedule an appointment.

Regardless of their merit and whether they are even enacted, I think the proposed changes could slow down the process further.


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## Frank bcn (Nov 25, 2013)

I don't think I will be applying for Spanish citizenship any time soon. I will be marrying a Spanish citizen and becoming a resident. Plus, I would not want to give up my American citizenship. If we stay in Spain, I may consider Spanish citizenship for the reason many of you have already mentioned.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Frank bcn said:


> I don't think I will be applying for Spanish citizenship any time soon. I will be marrying a Spanish citizen and becoming a resident. Plus, *I would not want to give up my American citizenship*. If we stay in Spain, I may consider Spanish citizenship for the reason many of you have already mentioned.


Believe me, you will want to when you're preparing your American tax return 

How's everything going? When are you coming?


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## Frank bcn (Nov 25, 2013)

"Taxes"...why do you use foul language on this forum 

I am doing fine. Getting near my departure date. I'll be in BCN towards the end of this month. 
Just a few more loose ends to tie up and I'll be ready to go. I hope all is well.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Frank bcn said:


> I don't think I will be applying for Spanish citizenship any time soon. I will be marrying a Spanish citizen and becoming a resident. Plus, I would not want to give up my American citizenship. If we stay in Spain, I may consider Spanish citizenship for the reason many of you have already mentioned.



You don't "give it up" it just appears that you do.Same with the British.
You end up with dual nationality .


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## agua642 (May 24, 2009)

Meanwhile whilst waiting for Spanish nationality to process and also given up my British passport, 
If the process is long & lengthy I have no ID document for travelling with! 
am I correct if one is born in a Spain one only has 2 years to apply for Spanish nationality, is it a long process, daughter is now 19
Advice as always appreciated


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Yes, if born here of foreign parents & assuming they have lived here all there life , they have 2 years from age 18 to apply for spanish nationality.
You shouldn't actually give up the passport before getting it. If you do have to actually give it up when you receive spanish citizenship they return it to the UK embassy .... who return it to you.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

agua642 said:


> Meanwhile whilst waiting for Spanish nationality to process and also given up my British passport,
> If the process is long & lengthy I have no ID document for travelling with!
> am I correct if one is born in a Spain one only has 2 years to apply for Spanish nationality, is it a long process, daughter is now 19
> Advice as always appreciated


Given up your British passport?
Where is it?


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## Out (Mar 8, 2012)

Does anyone know how Spain handles the issue of old, relatively minor criminal records? 

I know some places it's an absolute bar to citizenship (for example, Brazil, its actually a constitutional barrier) whereas other places like the UK or Australia or Sweden consider time elapsed and/or what the sentence was, other places don't really care.

Prefer people who have actual, concrete knowledge not guesses or theories. I am already an EU citizen and considering Spain, but my brother has an issue like this and I don't want to live anyplace where he can't join me.


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## cescolar (May 31, 2013)

*In the US too*



Alcalaina said:


> They've had a citizenship test in the UK for a year now. Apparently quite a lot of Brits couldn't pass it. Should they be required to leave the country?


When I took the oral test to get my US citizenship, the lady asked me who wrote the Star Spangled banner.

I thought it was an irrelevant question, for which I did not have an answer.

So I told her "I don't. Do you?"

And she said: "I don't either!"

So how on earth would she know if I gave her the right answer? They should throw her out of the US too!


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Out said:


> Does anyone know how Spain handles the issue of old, relatively minor criminal records?
> 
> I know some places it's an absolute bar to citizenship (for example, Brazil, its actually a constitutional barrier) whereas other places like the UK or Australia or Sweden consider time elapsed and/or what the sentence was, other places don't really care.
> 
> Prefer people who have actual, concrete knowledge not guesses or theories. I am already an EU citizen and considering Spain, but my brother has an issue like this and I don't want to live anyplace where he can't join me.


I know Spain has denied Student Visas to people with drunk driving convictions or petty theft convictions on their record. The crazy thing was that it seemed to vary between consulates. (Eg. Miami said yes, NY said no.)


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## Graham Nash (Nov 23, 2013)

I find having to have a passport/visa degrading to start with. I'm a British citizen and was living and working as a resident in Spain for 28years. During the last few years I spent some time in Thailand and married a Thai, we had two children one was born in Spain. Bringing my wife to Spain was easy free and we split our time between Thailand and spain. We recently all moved to the UK, again very easy and free and my wife now has a 5 year UK residents permit stuck inside her Thai passport and can work here. However she must now take the citizen test so I bought the books and have been helping her to wade through it so she can take a test. I feel that it is very unfair to ask her to take the test as so many UK citizens would fail this test. I managed to pass the test by 80% and thats only because I love English history, or I would of failed too.


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## elisa31bcn (Jan 23, 2013)

For the OP, I'm afraid I don't have a concrete answer, but I'm not sure what your question is. To have citizenship means to have already been a resident, for 10 years on your own, or 1 year if married to a Spanish citizen. So first your American, I'm assuming, brother would have to have a visa: work, student, retirement, non lucrative. To get the visa in the first place, a FBI backround check is required. That's when a criminal history might be a factor. At any rate, citizenship is never a requirement for being in a country legally.
Visiting, of course, is not an issue.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Graham Nash said:


> I find having to have a passport/visa degrading to start with. I'm a British citizen and was living and working as a resident in Spain for 28years. During the last few years I spent some time in Thailand and married a Thai, we had two children one was born in Spain. Bringing my wife to Spain was easy free and we split our time between Thailand and spain. We recently all moved to the UK, again very easy and free and my wife now has a 5 year UK residents permit stuck inside her Thai passport and can work here. However she must now take the citizen test so I bought the books and have been helping her to wade through it so she can take a test. I feel that it is very unfair to ask her to take the test as so many UK citizens would fail this test. I managed to pass the test by 80% and thats only because I love English history, or I would of failed too.


Degrading or not thousands, if not millions of people go through the process every year all over the world in the US, Australia and maybe in developing countries too - I don't know.
Govenments are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Do you have another solution?


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## Graham Nash (Nov 23, 2013)

*Simple solution*



Pesky Wesky said:


> Degrading or not thousands, if not millions of people go through the process every year all over the world in the US, Australia and maybe in developing countries too - I don't know.
> Govenments are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Do you have another solution?


In a nut shell "Dont have passports" People move for different reasons too many to list here but at the end of the day we have to except that we are all born into the world and it's our world and we should be free to move on it as we want. I will now add that if I want to live in a country I need to work to fund my self and having said that it should be noted that we can still have a social system in place but we would have to earn our place in it. In other words fit in and be part of the country and abide by its laws. I don't advocate giving anything to someone who has not contributed to a pension or health care. It should be a level playing ground if you cant speak a language naturally you would find it hard to work. Just as if you have not the funds to move you can not move. Its a very fair way the only civilized way.
Passports are a relatively new idea and in fact in the early part of the 19th century we would travel with out them. The problem today for the UK is that we allow new immigrants who arrive here instant access to funds, housing and health care. So it's little wonder we have a problem. Take that away and the problem would all but disappear.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Graham Nash said:


> In a nut shell "Dont have passports" People move for different reasons too many to list here but at the end of the day we have to except that we are all born into the world and it's our world and we should be free to move on it as we want. I will now add that if I want to live in a country I need to work to fund my self and having said that it should be noted that we can still have a social system in place but we would have to earn our place in it. In other words fit in and be part of the country and abide by its laws. I don't advocate giving anything to someone who has not contributed to a pension or health care. It should be a level playing ground if you cant speak a language naturally you would find it hard to work. Just as if you have not the funds to move you can not move. Its a very fair way the only civilized way.
> Passports are a relatively new idea and in fact in the early part of the 19th century we would travel with out them. The problem today for the UK is that we allow new immigrants who arrive here instant access to funds, housing and health care. So it's little wonder we have a problem. Take that away and the problem would all but disappear.


But not having passports wouldn't stop immigrants coming to the UK, would it, whether they would receive benefits or not.
The fact that passports are a relatively new requirement may be due to the fact that now millions more people travel around the world it is easier for terorists to operate and criminals to disappear.


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## Brangus (May 1, 2010)

Out said:


> Does anyone know how Spain handles the issue of old, relatively minor criminal records?


Whether Spain would even know about the crime might depend on which citizenship is currently held and where the crime was committed. 

When my OH applied for citizenship less than 2 years ago, a _certificado de antecedentes penales _(criminal history) was required only from the "home" country, even though OH hasn't lived there for 30 years.

In contrast, when we applied for *visas* about five years ago, we had to provide police records from every place we had lived in the preceding five years.

Since we don't know anything about your brother's situation, I will leave it at that. (P.S. My OH is not American and has a squeaky clean record.)


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## Brangus (May 1, 2010)

"Foreigners looking to obtain Spanish nationality are having to display an increasingly wide array of knowledge...."

"Which river runs between Madrid and Barcelona?" | In English | EL PAÍS


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Brangus said:


> "Foreigners looking to obtain Spanish nationality are having to display an increasingly wide array of knowledge...."
> 
> "Which river runs between Madrid and Barcelona?" | In English | EL PAÍS


Just as long as they aren't asked to sing the national anthem!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Just as long as they aren't asked to sing the national anthem!


oh my - they might sing the words my kids sing


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## Leper (May 12, 2010)

elenetxu said:


> Los inmigrantes tendr?n que superar pruebas de idioma y cultura para nacionalizarse. eldiariomontanes.es
> 
> While the decision used to be in a judge's hands, it will now be in the hands of what seems to be an online test about Spanish language and history. The proposed language level is an A2 on the European Framework which is quite generous on Spain's part. I think it would be pretty easy to get to an A2 level if you're living in Spain and integrated into Spanish society.
> 
> How many of you are applying for Spanish citizenship? What do you think of the changes?


Like no other nation, the Spanish have the ability to continually shoot-themselves-in-the-foot. The European Union means little or nothing to them (I am being a bit general here). The inevitably of a United Nations of Europe, they cannot comprehend. Perhaps I am being somewhat disengenous to them, but I think not.

Spain was once a world power. Like many former world powers (UK for example) they think their country is still great. The former great countries have been overtaken. Even some Asian countries believed to be just a step up from 3rd World have left the likes of Spain behind. The UK has been overrun by non Brits and the UK PC brigade is adding to Britain's woes.

So, do not be surprised if the Spanish government introduces measures to try to make Spain appear great again (well at least in thought!!!!!).

It will probably be a part of the greater ploy to keep the population from even thinking and deflect any thoughts from corrupt politicians and dishonest bankers.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> Maybe it is relevant for US citizens who want to renounce their US citizenship to get away from the US's punitive tax regime (no matter hwre you are in the world you still have to pay US tax if you are a US citizen, or so I've been told)


That's true - just think of the trial's and tribulations London Mayor, Boris Johnson's
going through just to escape the long tentacles of the American IRS who regard
any children born of foreign parents in the US as subject to US tax laws:

Quote:

The IRS apparently wants its 15 per cent cut from the sale of Boris’s first home,
a north London four-storey that he and his wife sold in 2009 for more than twice
the 1999 purchase price. The sale of a first residence ‘is not taxable in Britain’,
Johnson explained to American listeners (so there’s one stamp-duty loophole that
he’s not clamouring to eliminate).

However, it is taxable for US citizens, no matter where in the world the transaction
takes place and particularly if the gain has gone untouched by other jurisdictions. 
Asked if he plans to pay the bill, Boris retorted:

‘No. . . . I think it’s absolutely outrageous. Why should I?’

The short answer, to borrow the Mayor’s logic, would be because capital-gains tax
on real estate is paid by virtually everyone else who holds US citizenship - except
those who can afford the clever lawyers to avoid it.

That hardly makes it just, and this American wastes no love on the ‘incredible doctrine
of global taxation’, as Johnson described it to NPR. Adding insult to absurdity, the IRS
does not adjust for inflation in setting capital-gain tabs, so its bill to Boris probably
reflects the full nominal increase on the sticker-price of his London home.

But US taxes have been technically global since 1861, in part to discourage
Americans from fleeing the US Civil War. The Revenue Act called for duties to
apply on income:


‘Whether such income is derived from any kind of property, or from any profession,
trade, employment, or vocation carried on in the United States or elsewhere,
or from any other source whatever.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

anles said:


> Why would she give up her British citizenship? My children have both nationalities. It cost me money to register their births at the British embassy, something I wasn't very happy about as here it cost me nothing. I wasn't very happy when their passports cost me 180€ while a Spanish passport at the time cost 16€ and you got it straight away, but I wanted them to have more options in life. Now my two sons have moved to my hometown in the UK so it was well worthwhile, with their passports they had no problem getting NI numbers, starting work and everything has been simple and stress-free. If I get Spanish citizenship, I want be giving up my British nationality.



Of course the BIG question that nobody's raised ( so far ) in this debate is - what
happens if the UK votes to leave the European Union and therefore closes the
door on the Free Movement of Labour, right of residence, etc.
I assume those Brits who renounced their British nationality for Spanish citizenship
can sleep easy in their Spanish beds - whereas those Brits who are over here
under the auspices of the EU's Free Movement of Labour, etc will be packing their
bags - rather than face the humiliation of deportation by the Guardia Civil, etc.

Of course I can think of a number of people here - who might rejoice at the 
thought of some notorious Brit's being evicted from Spain.
As I can just picture them now sitting outside the homes & neighbourhoods
of those recalcitrant Brit's - who's cars have been sporting British number plates
for far longer then they should do, with a Cavalier attitude to Spanish life,
ways and customs.

Yes I can just picture them now like a bunch of old women knitting socks,
laughing and shouting Guillotine, Guillotine, as their cars are impouded, en route
to the breakers yard while their British Pubs and Fish & Chip shops face
repossession orders from their Spanish creditors.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Williams2 said:


> *Of course the BIG question that nobody's raised ( so far ) in this debate is - what*
> *happens if the UK votes to leave the European Union and therefore closes the
> door on the Free Movement of Labour, right of residence, etc.*
> I assume those Brits who renounced their British nationality for Spanish citizenship
> ...


that has been debated in another thread - have a search


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Williams2 said:


> That's true - just think of the trial's and tribulations London Mayor, Boris Johnson's
> going through just to escape the long tentacles of the American IRS who regard
> any children born of foreign parents in the US as subject to US tax laws:
> 
> ...



BRB, gonna go throw some tea into the harbor. 
Taxation with very limited and very poor representation!
Good lord.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Williams2 said:


> That's true - just think of the trial's and tribulations London Mayor, Boris Johnson's
> going through just to escape the long tentacles of the American IRS who regard
> any children born of foreign parents in the US as subject to US tax laws:
> 
> ...


I read about that in the Sunday Times, and smiled to myself at the thought that some of our contributors apparently find it outrageous that they should be subject to Spanish taxation because of the minor detail that they live here!


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## ddrysdale99 (Apr 3, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> I just did it...... good job I already left


i got 10 - should have been 11 but made a silly mistake.
I'm 62, went to one of the best Grammar schools in the country and one of the best Universities but gave up History when I was 13.

Why should knowing when the Irish potato famine was make you a good British citizen? (I got that one right though)


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

¿Aprobaría usted el test de ‘españolidad’?
Â¿AprobarÃ­a usted el test de â€˜espaÃ±olidadâ€™? | EspaÃ±a | EL PAÃ�S

I am ashamed that I can identify the idiot who is on TV who was married to a _torero_ but I can't remember who wrote _La Celestina_. As for the question about the kings? Easy: Felipe 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

elenetxu said:


> ¿Aprobaría usted el test de ‘españolidad’?
> Â¿AprobarÃ*a usted el test de â€˜espaÃ±olidadâ€™? | EspaÃ±a | EL PAÃ�S
> 
> I am ashamed that I can identify the idiot who is on TV who was married to a _torero_ but I can't remember who wrote _La Celestina_. As for the question about the kings? Easy: Felipe 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6!


Go with the Alfonsos and you have even more to choose from!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

A two year old boy, born in Spain of Senegalese parents has been denied nationality because he isn't "intergrated in Spanish society"
The parents have been here for 10 years and their eldest child was awarded Spanish nationality in 2013. The same court denied a Bolivian nationality as well because he didn't know the ingredients of gazpacho


> ... el Juzgado de Instrucción y Primera Instancia número 1 de Santa Fe ya informó desfavorablemente de la petición de nacionalidad de un emigrante de origen boliviano debido a que en su test para comprobar el grado de integración este desconocía los ingredientes del gazpacho. "En ese caso él quiso recurrir", explica Fermín, "por entender que era una argumentación arbitraria. Se trataba de una persona, además, con pareja e hijos españoles".


Deniegan la nacionalidad a un niño de dos años nacido en España por "no estar integrado"


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> A two year old boy, born in Spain of Senegalese parents has been denied nationality because he isn't "intergrated in Spanish society"
> The parents have been here for 10 years and their eldest child was awarded Spanish nationality in 2013. The same court denied a Bolivian nationality as well because he didn't know the ingredients of gazpacho
> 
> 
> Deniegan la nacionalidad a un niño de dos años nacido en España por "no estar integrado"




This is ridiculous. They just need to follow the little one to _infantil_ to see how integrated he is.


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## hrtfreeman (Feb 4, 2015)

elenetxu said:


> This is ridiculous. They just need to follow the little one to _infantil_ to see how integrated he is.


I really love Spain, but one thing I cannot stand how close-minded it is politically and sociologically... I'm afraid they probably have no interest in how well integrated the poor kid is 

Really makes me mad these sorts of news *sigh*... Breath out...


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