# Non-EU moving to Madrid. Please kindly advise as much as possible.



## tiger015 (Jan 28, 2009)

Dear Friends,

I am a Non-EU (Canadian) working in research and academia and would be moving to Madrid in few months with my wife (IT tech) and our newborn child. I have a long term appointment with my institution and we are looking to settle in permanently in Madrid. My wife would start looking for jobs once there.

I need advise regarding affordable places to stay. My salary will be approximately 2000 Euros after tax per month. Is this reasonable? I am looking for an apartment 1-2 bedrooms below the range of 600-800 Euros. My place of work is at C/Serrano near Avenida de America. I would be using metro and I am open to commute till 30-45 minutes to work. Can you please advise on suitable areas to live in above price range? What is the cost of electricity/gas etc per month and also the high speed internet charges? What areas one should avoid? Please note I don't expect t buy a car in the first year and would prefer suburbs than the main city.

At the moment I am just looking for a place for the first year. Afterwards I may move to some other place depending on a English speaking school for my child.

Please advise.


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

Generally speaking - The South and East of Madrid are cheaper areas. Madrids local train system (Cercanias) is EXCELLENT as is the Metro. When you have it all a bit more localised - come back and we'll delve deeper. How's your Spanish? - may sound silly - but Madrid IS NOT expat land - and you'll need Spanish to survive in areas where Spaniards live.

I'd look here where we are too though (west). My wife commutes in daily on the Bus and door to door (she works not far from where you'll be) - just over an hour. I work even further out in wildest Spain. Look at Villalba and El Escorial areas for example. But remember - out in the sticks - the closer you are to the station the more expensive it will be!

ADSL (broadband internet) - approx 40Euros/month (but this will include all fixed line calls within Spain) This depends a bit on who the supplier is. If in doubt - ime - use Telefonica. Yes they're more expensive but often the only "reliable" provider outside LARGE towns. Where I live there is POOR cellphone coverage too.

Gas/electricity depends naturally on usage and the flat. I see Jojos costs and cringe - as a couple we must be frugal. Be aware that piped Gas is NOT always installed. Bottled gas in older/cheaper/rural areas is still VERY common. The price here can fluctuate wildly as it's very linked to commodity costs. Currently our gas is 25% cheaper than last winter!

I've Spanish family in the newer part of Leganés which is not at all bad (train station too). Maybe look at Rivas. These are NEWER areas - personally I find some of the older suburbs a bit TOO austere. The older areas'll be cheaper though. Maybe look at Ciempozuelos (train). Vallecas (the suburb town NOT the barrio of the capital) has grown and is VERY close. These are NOT my idea of where to live as I NEED to be in the countryside.

IT tech - You'll need to very VERY good with Spanish. Madrid is NOT expat land. What sort of IT btw? - PC's or Mainframes?. There are some PC type IT jobs - not many though and not at all well paid. Many also on "self employed" basis- often just as fill-in jobs. Which is a major pita. Mainframe will be harder to get into as the market is small and it's a VERY closed community.

Depending on your social preferences - you can also look North and West but a bit further out. Generally it's cooler. Thought of small towns/villages? - or do you want high rise urban areas?. 

If you're set to stay - I'd strongly recommend STATE schools - Your child will integrate FAST if they're there from day one - and if my nieces (100% Spanish girl) schooling is anything to go by - English is taught to a good standard. You can always add on a bit of extra English - as her parents did. 

The only bi-lingual schools I know of here are all a bit well - snobby. Lots of rich kids - and the normal kids start to feel left out fairly soon at a recreational level. This from both parents and teachers I've met in my years here. 

Be aware you'll need to have a driving licence once here before getting a car - your Canadian one is PROBABLY not transferable and not valid for much time either - I'd get onto that FAST. Bring an IDL as a start. Book lessons/test. It's something I avoided as I am an EU passport holder. I'd certainly get a scooter or something as you may need to get from home to Station. Spanish suburbs can be HUGE. 

TRY and convince your employers to assist with a public transport yearly pass. My wife has one as she works for Madrid Town hall. It's worth a fair amount of money.


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## tiger015 (Jan 28, 2009)

*Mucho gracias!*

Thanks a lot Chris. This is very helpful. Both me and my wife are taking Spanish lessons and I hope to learn it for next 6 months before moving in.

I have a question regarding self employed basis as I am confused about it. First my wife is a PC technician, has done A+, MCP and Network+ and is currently doing her MCSA while working for a multinational IT company (Geeksquad). I don't know whether Geeksquad has an offshoot in Spain. It is not mainframe. 

She was thinking to get just the residence visa right now and once in Spain to apply for the work permit. I thought that to get a self employment visa one has to show a lot of financial resources and the way the proposed project generates employment for others and so on. Can you please elaborate on how does the working on self employed basis works? Shall my wife apply for a self employed visa and then apply for jobs and she can get some sort of temp position in a company? Are companies reluctant to process work permits if you don't have one? Or if you have a self employment work permit then companies can hire you in some way? Is it possible to apply for self employment work permit when one reaches Spain?
Sorry I don't know much the way the culture works there. Please give frank advise on this matter.

Also my employer is going to cover the social security for my family. If my wife applies for self employment does'nt she has to pay social security herself even if she does not get a job? If a person with self employment work permit is unemployed, then does he still have to pay taxes?

Once again thanks a ton for your advise. Please advise more.
"IT tech - You'll need to very VERY good with Spanish. Madrid is NOT expat land. What sort of IT btw? - PC's or Mainframes?. There are some PC type IT jobs - not many though and not at all well paid. Many also on "self employed" basis- often just as fill-in jobs. Which is a major pita. Mainframe will be harder to get into as the market is small and it's a VERY closed community."


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

OK - The visa side I don't know - as I don't need one. 

If you register here as an AUTONOMO "self employed" - You WILL have to pay approx 235Euros Social Security a Month for the privilege. You will also (afaik) need to do VAT returns quarterly. This whether you actually earn or not. 

I have friends in the PC-type IT business that have found they need to be Autonomo to even find work - One has just landed a contract with the MoD - The MoD are not allowed to hire more staff but can outsource. If he'd not landed this - he'd be without a job right now. He's Spanish btw. You need to be able to hunt for work - language is a must!

I was a bit luckier and work in a town hall as employee doing general PC work - though I am ex-mainframe. But this is also a bit of a lifestyle choice.

THERE is IT work out there - but MUCH involves direct customer integration - and this means REAL Spaniards who ime are not willing to speak pigeon-Spanish for long - unless you have a VERY rare skill set. 

Qualifications are good to have - but in many cases those will be PRE-REQ's to even get an interview. I've seen temporary posts advertised with crazy pre-req's. Also I've found a few nasty tricks there where jobs are advertised that are already filled - just to get folk on the agency books. 

Spain is a land of the subcontract - this is often a good thing - but you see here too much subcontract nesting as often as not. It results in poor income for the do'ers and expensive service for the final customer. 

As autonomo you issue bills - so if another company needs your services for a short while - basically you subcontract. If you were to get HIRED as an employee - I'd drop the autonomo status FAST. 

Hope that helps some.


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## tiger015 (Jan 28, 2009)

Thanks Chris. This information is very helpful for me. Thanks a lot. Both me and my wife are learning Spanish and we realise that unless we have a sufficiently good knowledge of the language it will be difficult to survive.




chris(madrid) said:


> OK - The visa side I don't know - as I don't need one.
> 
> If you register here as an AUTONOMO "self employed" - You WILL have to pay approx 235Euros Social Security a Month for the privilege. You will also (afaik) need to do VAT returns quarterly. This whether you actually earn or not.
> 
> ...


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

My ADVICE is that once you have residency etc sorted - that your wife gets on the unemployed register asap. Make sure that when you do all the applications you tick the "will want to work" boxes.

The INEM (state unemployment office) does seem always to want a few PC folk - these will generally NOT be good or even long term jobs but may be a good way to get "experience". BUT importantly any jobs that are state subsidised positions HAVE TO BE FILLED from the unemployment register. 

Also they do set-up courses for the unemployed - this will boost her "real working Spanish" rather than "I want to hire a red (not green) jet-ski" Spanish. I was offered a 500hour networking course about a week before was picked up for the post here. I was very tempted to fail the interview to get the course!


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## tiger015 (Jan 28, 2009)

Thanks Chris. Some questions:

1. Does one need to get a self employment work permit to register in the INEM for employment? Or any one with residence visa can do so?

2. Is there any website to learn more about the option to have courses for the unemployed? This looks really good option to pursue if my wife is allowed to.


{QUOTE=chris(madrid);101472]My ADVICE is that once you have residency etc sorted - that your wife gets on the unemployed register asap. Make sure that when you do all the applications you tick the "will want to work" boxes.

The INEM (state unemployment office) does seem always to want a few PC folk - these will generally NOT be good or even long term jobs but may be a good way to get "experience". BUT importantly any jobs that are state subsidised positions HAVE TO BE FILLED from the unemployment register. 

Also they do set-up courses for the unemployed - this will boost her "real working Spanish" rather than "I want to hire a red (not green) jet-ski" Spanish. I was offered a 500hour networking course about a week before was picked up for the post here. I was very tempted to fail the interview to get the course![/QUOTE]


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

As you're NON-EU the rules may be different. But when I fist came here ('93) as a dependant of my wife, who's Spanish, when the EU/non-EU thing was still in its infancy - we ticked the "will want to work" boxes when applying for residency. I did not sign on immediately for a few reasons not least that I was on full German pay for 9 months (severance clause) and it was WAY more than I'd have earned here. And in this time I found a GOOD job anyway.

1) You need to be resident and on (I think) the census (El Padron) - You'll be doing this anyway for other things - SO DONT PANIC. I was most certainly NOT self employed when I signed on in 2000. Basically you're signing on as UNEMPLOYED and in need of work.

2) The courses TEND to be local and based on regional/local subsidy. Normally on LONG printouts in the office you'll be allocated to (it depends where you live). The INEM btw is a trial of patience! - expect HOURS long queues.


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