# cost of living day to day



## Vcgj527 (Nov 3, 2012)

hi guys 
just considering the cost of living in javea as we look at rental prices
obviously if the cost of living is x then we can afford y for rent so
just want to double check some figures
could 2 adults and a baby eat out and have excursions and be out and about for £1000 a month? 
yes or no please elaborate on day to day costs
average food shopping bills (we eat pretty healthy so mostly just fresh meats and veg and fruit) and eating out like once a week 
how much is a bottle of wine for example
or a dozen eggs- we eat a lot of eggs lol
is there a farmers market where we can get fresh fruit and veg at cost?
how much is it to eat out at a restaurant- casual or nice ones- we love seafood!

also is there anywhere i can buy baby gates or will i have to buy them online?
i have a very active 10 month old who refuses to listen to "no" for some things and only a gate will keep him away so this is a must buy item
also guard for the side of the bed as we cosleep most of the time 
maybe a crib too?

once again any help would be handy

thank you!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Vcgj527 said:


> hi guys
> just considering the cost of living in javea as we look at rental prices
> obviously if the cost of living is x then we can afford y for rent so
> just want to double check some figures
> ...


1000 GBP - so a bit over 1200€

I'm not clear if you were including rent in that figure though - if not, then yes, very comfortably

if you _are_ including rent, doable, but not overly comfortable.............. read on

2 bedroom apartment 500 a month + bills - say 100 for bills then 600 - I have a feeling I'm coming down on the low side though as far as bills are concerned 

main food/supermarket shop - working backwards from my bill for 3 adults (I don't shop 'English' nor 'luxury' but don't necessarily scrimp either) , say 65ish a week, so an average of 280 a month............ again - I might be coming down on the low side

perfectly drinkable local wine is about 1.20€ a bottle

12 large eggs are about 1.50€

a meal out can be anything from 5€ menú del día at the (nasty IMO) chinese to the sky's the limit - a goodish menú del día is maybe 15€ pp - a la carte you can spend a fortune

yes, stair gates are easily available & I'm sure bed guards are too - istr we bought one when our girls were in bunk beds & the top bunk didn't have a guard on it !!


there isn't a 'farmers market' as such but we do have a daily indoor market - I wouldn't say it's really much cheaper than the supermarkets though - & a weekly outdoor market too - again, not much in it price-wise

so - basic essentials 880 - 900 a month, leaving +/- 300 for entertainment, clothes (clothes are expensive ) , transport ( you didn't mention a car - that would eat up the 300 in no time) bus fares within Javea are about 1.40 a trip (flat fare) - no idea about getting a bus beyond the town though

taxis are a minimum of 5 € something - not a cheap option. I don't drive - we were invited to a friends one Sunday - no buses on a Sunday - taxi fares came to 30€ & that was only to the other side of Jávea, but up the hill so not easily cyclable 


as I say - doable, but not a lot of wriggle room for emergencies - & not much chance of saving for trips/holidays

I can't remember if you'd be able to access state healthcare - if so that at least is free, but you still have prescription charges - if not, then you'll need insurance - that will eat a massive hole into the 300€


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

We (3 adults, 2 dogs and a canary) manage very comfortably on €600 pm utilities and car costs included. We don't live extravagantly. Menú del día around here is about €8-9 for a reasonable 3 courses including beverage (e.g. tinto de verano) and we'd never pay more than €12 and that would be in a big restaurant on the main road in Pinos Puente (a treat after spending hours sitting around at the hospital in Granada).


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

As Xabi says, if you are not including rent in your €1200 then you will have a very nice lifestyle. If you are including rent then it is still doable but avoid the English shops. You can get just about everything here and it is far cheaper in Spanish shopes including SuperCor (I like to think of this store as the Waitrose of Spanish supermarkets).


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

As a rule of thumb, I would mentally turn your 1000€ into a £1000 and then ask yourself if you could live on that in the UK

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jojo said:


> As a rule of thumb, I would mentally turn your 1000€ into a £1000 and then ask yourself if you could live on that in the UK
> 
> Jo xxx


that's not a bad rule of thumb actually, especially when you have kids - most kids things seem to come under the 'not essential so not cheap' pricing system 

so, you have 1200 GBP to live on in the UK, Vcgj527............. would you be comfortable?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Another of those 'how long is a piece of string?' questions.

Depends entirely on your tastes, previous lifestyles and expectations. Your rent will vary depending on whether you live in a piso, an adosado or a house/villa.

Currently we rent a large house with pool. So we need 2000 euros for rent, utilities, garden'pool maintenance before anyone eats. We're retired and spending the kids' inheritance so we can afford it. We want a zero bank balance before we kick the bucket.

But we could downsize -and probably will when we're too decrepit to make it up the marble staircase - and we will then be able to live well on under 1500 euros a month, maybe even under 1000 euros.

I can't see how a family of three could pay bills including rent and utilities, groceries, fuel, insurances, replacement of household goods and clothing, medical expenses, car repairs and transport, entertainment, for under 2000 euros a month.

After all, as people have said think about what you would need in the UK.....the official DWP figure for a family of four is now set at £26k per annum, around 30000k euros. Babies are expensive and there is no UK Child Benefit payable in Spain....


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Another of those 'how long is a piece of string?' questions.
> 
> Depends entirely on your tastes, previous lifestyles and expectations. Your rent will vary depending on whether you live in a piso, an adosado or a house/villa.
> 
> ...


I have to admit I was looking at 2 bedroom apartments, not all with pools or even lifts - there was one cheaper than 500€ a month on the site I looked at, but it was in the 'slightly dodgy' area

that really is pretty much the least you'll pay in this town - if you wanted anything bigger/better you'll pay rather more

however - maybe the OP means 1200€ a month _after _rent


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## Vcgj527 (Nov 3, 2012)

i did mean AFTER rent. oops sorry for not making that clearer! 
thank you for all your responses- glad we're on the right track with our budget!


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## Chica22 (Feb 26, 2010)

I always read the 'Cost of Living' posts with interest (well probably being nosey!!!), and thought I would give my experience.

We both had very good salaries in the UK, ate out regularly, bought lots of clothes and had nice cars. We had purchased a holiday home here more than 10 years before we came to live here, so had a good idea of the cost of living and how much we would need on an annual basis.

At the time I found the idea of shopping at the markets, Menu del Dias and living in a pair of shorts and flip flops  exciting.

We set an annual budget of 15,000 euros for bills and living expenses, and I knew this would be enough to live off, and kept a healthy bank balance for extras, ie replacement white goods etc.

For 2 or 3 years I was more than happy with this lifestyle, managing a set amount for food shopping, going out for a bottle of plonk and a plate of sardines, shopping in the markets.

However after a few years, I suddenly realised that I missed the odd Chanel lipstick, the thrill of going shopping and 'blowing money' on clothes, going to the supermarket and buying Jamon Iberico and a good Rioja and that I wanted an occasional fine dining experience. Thankfully we have sufficient money in the bank to pander to my weaknesses!!!

So to anyone who is thinking of moving to Spain, think about the frivolous things that put a smile on your face, in the beginning you may think you can do without them, but eventually, certainly in my case, you may miss them.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Chica22 said:


> I always read the 'Cost of Living' posts with interest (well probably being nosey!!!), and thought I would give my experience.
> 
> We both had very good salaries in the UK, ate out regularly, bought lots of clothes and had nice cars. We had purchased a holiday home here more than 10 years before we came to live here, so had a good idea of the cost of living and how much we would need on an annual basis.
> 
> ...


The odd treat is nice but when you only have a fixed amount coming in and the UK government seems determined to minimise that, you have to live a sustainable lifestyle. We can no longer afford to run two cars - we don't need two anyway; meals out = menú del día somewhere when our commitments mean that we are out over our normal mealtime, e.g. a hospital appointment in the 12-2pm slots. There are things that need doing on the house but they are getting done slowly as and when we can afford them (we no longer use credit cards) and if all this means we keep our lifestyle more simple - so be it. SWMBO and la suegra have their television so they can watch UK, US and Spanish TV programmes and whatever else comes off the satellite We do try to get away for a self-catering holiday each year which enables us to see a bit more of our newly adopted home country and that satisfies us.

Each to his/her own choice.


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## Vcgj527 (Nov 3, 2012)

Hi chica 22 thank you for your reply I agree the odd treat is def necessary but the nice thing is we get a bulk payment back every year when we get our tax back since hubby works offshore that's a hefty amount I think our plan is to take a little bit out for each of us and out aside for occasional treats and Christmas shopping etc. based off of what you said I think we'll be okay thank you for your response


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Vcgj527 said:


> Hi chica 22 thank you for your reply I agree the odd treat is def necessary but the nice thing is we get a bulk payment back every year when we get our tax back since hubby works offshore that's a hefty amount I think our plan is to take a little bit out for each of us and out aside for occasional treats and Christmas shopping etc. based off of what you said I think we'll be okay thank you for your response


hmmm

you really need to speak to a tax specialist about this - I'm not entirely sure how it all works, but I do know that if your husband is supporting a family which lives in Spain (even if he isn't here long enough each year to be resident otherwise) , then Spain will consider him to be tax resident - therefore he will have to do a tax declaration each year here & pay tax here if wherever he (doesn't) pay tax to has no reciprocal agreement with Spain

I'd be happy to be proven wrong about this though


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## Vcgj527 (Nov 3, 2012)

Hmmm I know he works with a few people who live over there and work in the same company as him I thought he already looked into all this but I'll have him double check but I think it was like he doesn't have to pay twice when working and living within different eu countries and that Spain would consider him paying uk tax since technically he does and then we just claim it back but I'll def have him double check cheers


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Vcgj527 said:


> Hmmm I know he works with a few people who live over there and work in the same company as him I thought he already looked into all this but I'll have him double check but I think it was like he doesn't have to pay twice when working and living within different eu countries and that Spain would consider him paying uk tax since technically he does and then we just claim it back but I'll def have him double check cheers


that's right - he doesn't have to pay twice to countries with a reciprocal agreement - if he is working for a UK company then that should be fine - but yes, double check


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## Vcgj527 (Nov 3, 2012)

Yes it is a uk company on the phone with him now and he says it's all sorted


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

Vcgj527 said:


> Hmmm I know he works with a few people who live over there and work in the same company as him I thought he already looked into all this but I'll have him double check but I think it was like he doesn't have to pay twice when working and living within different eu countries and that Spain would consider him paying uk tax since technically he does and then we just claim it back but I'll def have him double check cheers


Err, if you reclaim the tax back, then you are not paying tax in the UK.. So, for example, you cannot present a P60 to Spain showing you have paid £x in the UK, and claim tax relief under the DTA, and then claim back the tax paid from the UK authorities. I' m sure people do it, but that would be fraud. As xabiachica says, you need proper professional advice for your situation.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

CapnBilly said:


> Err, if you reclaim the tax back, then you are not paying tax in the UK.. So, for example, you cannot present a P60 to Spain showing you have paid £x in the UK, and claim tax relief under the DTA, and then claim back the tax paid from the UK authorities. I' m sure people do it, but that would be fraud. As xabiachica says, you need proper professional advice for your situation.


yes, that's the way my brain is ticking too............... if he isn't paying tax anywhere then Spain will expect him to pay tax here

as I said though - proper tax advice is needed - by which I mean more than just 'asking the guys' what they do


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> that's right - he doesn't have to pay twice to countries with a reciprocal agreement - if he is working for a UK company then that should be fine - but yes, double check


The nationality of the company doesn't matter. It's the location the income is earned and the residence of the tax payer. 

Even then it can depend in rare cases on the type of work.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

NickZ said:


> The nationality of the company doesn't matter. It's the location the income is earned and the residence of the tax payer.
> 
> Even then it can depend in rare cases on the type of work.


yes, as I said, I don't know all the ins & outs of tax

I just wanted the OP to check with a professional because instinct is telling me that her OH could well be liable to pay tax here, as far as Spain is concerned

I don't know how it works if he works for a UK company & they deal with tax & then he gets it back - they do need to check with a professional, for all I know Spain might accept that he has paid tax - even if he has then had it back later


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> yes, as I said, I don't know all the ins & outs of tax
> 
> I just wanted the OP to check with a professional because instinct is telling me that her OH could well be liable to pay tax here, as far as Spain concerned
> 
> I don't know how it works if he works for a UK company & they deal with tax & then he gets it back - they do need to check with a professional, for all I know Spain might accept that he has paid tax - even if he has then had it back later


I would imagine he's working on a mobile rig, and using the Seafarers Earnings Deductions (known as SED and generally used for ships). The company deducts tax, quite properly and they use this loophole to claim back the tax. I' m sure at some stage this will be closed, but in the meantime it is legal. 

HOWEVER, Spain taxes ALL worldwide earnings, so I cannot see this would apply, so if they consider him tax resident( because his family live here), then he would be liable for tax, AND, there is no tax to offset. You cannot have it both ways, either you have paid tax or not. 

I don't think it's a matter of Spain accepting that the tax has been paid, as it's a self assessment system, so you just put down the amount you have paid (or not). Only if you get audited would you have to produce the evidence. If you use a gestoria you would normally provide a copy of your P60, which would show you have paid the tax. Having said that, there have been reports of the Hacienda saying that you have to pay them the full amount due, and claim the tax paid back from the UK, which you can do if you are resident in Spain ( except for things which are outlined in the DTA).

As I said earlier I'm sure people do claim they have paid it, even when they have claimed a refund. That's a personal choice, with all the consequences if discovered.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

CapnBilly said:


> I would imagine he's working on a mobile rig, and using the Seafarers Earnings Deductions (known as SED and generally used for ships).
> 
> HOWEVER, Spain taxes ALL worldwide earnings, so I cannot see this would apply, so if they consider him tax resident( because his family live here), then he would be liable for tax, AND, there is no tax to offset. You cannot have it both ways, either you have paid tax or not.


HM Revenue & Customs: Do I qualify for Seafarer's Earnings Deduction?

Glancing at that I see



> a) Spend 183 or more continuous days in the UK or


Which leads to my question. From glancing at that my guess is this is only allowed for UK tax residents. If that's the case the worry isn't that Spain would want it's money it's that the UK would want it's money. Assuming the work place is considered the UK then the UK would have the right to tax it. But if the person isn't resident in the UK they likely don't get the deduction.


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

NickZ said:


> HM Revenue & Customs: Do I qualify for Seafarer's Earnings Deduction?
> 
> Glancing at that I see
> 
> Which leads to my question. From glancing at that my guess is this is only allowed for UK tax residents. If that's the case the worry isn't that Spain would want it's money it's that the UK would want it's money. Assuming the work place is considered the UK then the UK would have the right to tax it. But if the person isn't resident in the UK they likely don't get the deduction.


I think the loophole is that the mobile rig is not considered the UK, otherwise you wouldn't be able to claim a refund. So if you are on a fixed rig, you don't qualify.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Ya but then the UK has no right to tax. 

So the double taxation treaty doesn't enter the picture. Tax paid to the UK wouldn't get you a credit since the UK doesn't have any right to it.

So either the work is in the UK then the UK can tax. The tax paid gets you credit with Spain.

Or the work is outside the UK and the UK doesn't enter the picture at all.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

NickZ said:


> Ya but then the UK has no right to tax.
> 
> So the double taxation treaty doesn't enter the picture. Tax paid to the UK wouldn't get you a credit since the UK doesn't have any right to it.
> 
> ...


I believe that what happens is if you are working for a UK company then the company taxes at source - but if the work is outside the UK you can claim it back

but that's not Spain - I don't know if Spain has similar rules - I don't believe it has since we know that Spain taxes _worldwide income_ so would expect tax to be paid to them


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

NickZ said:


> Ya but then the UK has no right to tax.
> 
> So the double taxation treaty doesn't enter the picture. Tax paid to the UK wouldn't get you a credit since the UK doesn't have any right to it.
> 
> ...


Agree with all that, and at the moment the OP partner is validly claiming back the tax paid in the UK. However, if the family move to Spain, and he is considered a Spanish resident for tax purpose, because the family live here, then Spain tax worldwide income. I have no idea, but I cannot see that the SED would apply in Spain, and therefore tax would be payable. If you read post 14, the OP says you tell Spain you have paid tax in the UK and claim a credit, and then claim it back from the UK, so when you claim it back, then you haven't paid it, and therefore you can't claim a credit.


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> I believe that what happens is if you are working for a UK company then the company taxes at source - but if the work is outside the UK you can claim it back
> 
> but that's not Spain - I don't know if Spain has similar rules - I don't believe it has since we know that Spain taxes _worldwide income_ so would expect tax to be paid to them


Agreed. I think this part of the thread has run its course now, it's down to the OP to sort it out. All we can do is point out what we believe the situation in Spain to be.

I posted because I don't believe on this forum we should condone, what I consider could be potentially fraudulent, and could then be read by visitors who think its correct.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

CapnBilly said:


> Agreed. I think this part of the thread has run its course now, it's down to the OP to sort it out. All we can do is point out what we believe the situation in Spain to be.
> 
> I posted because I don't believe on this forum we should condone, what I consider could be potentially fraudulent, and could then be read by visitors who think its correct.


agreed, on this or any forum - & in fact if anyone ever does suggest an action which we know (for sure) to be fraudulent or illegal then we say as much & close the thread

in this case I think it's not clear exactly what the situation is, so the discussion has been useful

I hope the OP will let us know what she finds out as far as the true legalities are concerned


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## Vcgj527 (Nov 3, 2012)

Hubby is contacting to our accountant to double check everything before we go
To clarify we are currently claiming back the tax in the uk completely legally
And should we decide to continue with our move to Spain we will of course pay whatever tax is necessary we have no intention of committing any kind of tax fraud so let's bring the judgement down a notch. 
I'll post on here when I hear what the facts are from my husband
Thanks for the helpful replies


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Vcgj527 said:


> Hubby is contacting to our accountant to double check everything before we go
> To clarify we are currently claiming back the tax in the uk completely legally
> And should we decide to continue with our move to Spain we will of course pay whatever tax is necessary we have no intention of committing any kind of tax fraud so let's bring the judgement down a notch.
> I'll post on here when I hear what the facts are from my husband
> Thanks for the helpful replies


I don't think anyone was judging you or suggesting that you would knowingly commit any fraud - & others have posted & agreed that what you are doing is completely legal in the UK

we just wanted you to check out the tax situation for Spain, so that you will be doing the right thing here too

please do come back & let us know the facts - it will help others with their decision making in future - whichever accountant you speak to needs to be au fait with *Spanish *tax rules though - not many UK accounts are


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