# Morelia or Leon?



## Jack Marley (Sep 21, 2014)

Morelia or Leon? which of these two cities is a more interesting place in terms of,* 1. the beauty of the city; 2. the friendliness of the locals; 3. better security situation? *this question coming from a traveler from the Caribbean.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Jack Marley said:


> Morelia or Leon? which of these two cities is a more interesting place in terms of,* 1. the beauty of the city; 2. the friendliness of the locals; 3. better security situation? *_this question coming from a traveler from the Caribbean._


_

Are you planning a vacation or looking for a new home?_


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

The answers to the questions will vary, depending upon who answers and the experiences they've had in both and the standards/comparisons they apply. For the most part, what we say should have little significance to the person asking the question.

I've spent time in both Merida and Leon, and like them both. I believe I could be happy living in either. Leon has climactic conditions which are more moderate than what I've experienced in Merida. A historic and culturally rich city it is, the weather in Merida can be stiflingly hot/humid. Leon has excellent airline and ground transport connections to the USA and is situated in the heartland of Mexico, a region I enjoy. I've found people in both cities to be outgoing, friendly, and I have felt secure wandering both.


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## Jack Marley (Sep 21, 2014)

not a vacation, probably to live there for a while.


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## Jack Marley (Sep 21, 2014)

Thanks for your response. However, it is Morelia and not Meridia


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Longford said:


> The answers to the questions will vary, depending upon who answers and the experiences they've had in both and the standards/comparisons they apply. For the most part, what we say should have little significance to the person asking the question.
> 
> I've spent time in both Merida and Leon, and like them both. I believe I could be happy living in either. Leon has climactic conditions which are more moderate than what I've experienced in Merida. A historic and culturally rich city it is, the weather in Merida can be stiflingly hot/humid. Leon has excellent airline and ground transport connections to the USA and is situated in the heartland of Mexico, a region I enjoy. I've found people in both cities to be outgoing, friendly, and I have felt secure wandering both.


The OP was asking about Morelia versus León, not Mérida.


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## circle110 (Jul 20, 2009)

For me, Morelia would win without a contest. 
Beauty of city category is no competition - I find Leon pretty ugly and Morelia quite attractive. The other two categories the OP asks about might be roughly equal, but overall charm of the city is a clear win for Morelia. If you have any interest in the arts, Morelia wins big as well in that regard.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

circle110 said:


> For me, Morelia would win without a contest.
> Beauty of city category is no competition - I find Leon pretty ugly and Morelia quite attractive. The other two categories the OP asks about might be roughly equal, but overall charm of the city is a clear win for Morelia. If you have any interest in the arts, Morelia wins big as well in that regard.


Especially classical music because it's the location of the oldest music conservatory in the Americas, the Conservatorio de las Rosas.


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## Jack Marley (Sep 21, 2014)

Thanks for your answer. In regards to the security situation, is Morelia still quite dangerous, and is it a more dangerous city than Leon? In regards of the friendliness and openness of the locals, is Morelia a more friendly place? I was once told that people in Leon are not very nice....


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## conklinwh (Dec 19, 2009)

Jack Marley said:


> Thanks for your answer. In regards to the security situation, is Morelia still quite dangerous, and is it a more dangerous city than Leon? In regards of the friendliness and openness of the locals, is Morelia a more friendly place? I was once told that people in Leon are not very nice....


Would be interesting to understand why you picked those two cities to ask about as that would give a background for the question.
To be honest, not sure why you would live in Leon unless you are in the leather business.
Morelia has a lot of history. Both way too large for me.
Not surprisingly, only you can really decide what is important.
I'd sort of pick one and spend 6 months there to see what you like & don't like.
You can then look at tradeoffs.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Sorry for the mix-up, mis-reading of Morelia for Merida. Correction noted. Leon, hands-down for me ... in a comparison between Morelia and Leon. Leon would be my choice. Michoacán is a war zone, and I'd personally steer clear at the present time.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

From someone who lives in Leon and has been to Morelia several times, I will add my 2 pesos. 

Leon is close to an international airport, is the Leather Capital of Mexico (shoes, boots, purses, belts, jackets, etc.), is a very large city (maybe 1.5 million and growing every day), seems very safe, people are as friendly here as anywhere I have been in Mexico. Has all the Big Box stores, etc. But, just a big, ugly city. They are cleaning it up slowly. There are a few nice area, emphasis on few. Basically, no central historico. It is however, 40 minutes from my home to the capital city, Guanajuato ( a really pretty city and easily accessed from Leon for multiple day trips). Certainly more expensive to live there than in Leon. Also, maybe 1.5 hours to SMA and Dolores Hidalgo, both worth visiting multiple times, too. Why am I here? Because my wife's family (very large family) lives here so we built a house and spend about 1/2 time here. 

Morelia is very pretty (but, Guanajuato wins hands down) for me. It is a much smaller city, more historic, but also has traffic problems like a Big city. Big Box stores, etc. There seem to be lots of "demonstrations" in Morelia, and obviously, it is the capital of one of the most violent states in Mexico, so there can be real security concerns. It is really close to Patzcuaro, a favorite destination for me about every 2 months, before all the "crap" started in Michoacán. Now, I go (because I like to purchase some goods there) and we leave after 1 night, not 3-4 days as before.
More "native" Indians in Morelia area than Guanajuato/Leon and their crafts. Just as friendly people. Foreigners who live in Morelia/Patzcuaro don't seem to be worried too much about the violence. Those in Leon (maybe 5-6) aren't either.

My pick: Leon. But, it's YOUR pick, not mine that counts. 
Suerte.


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## Jack Marley (Sep 21, 2014)

Thanks for your reply. Much appreciated. You said they were slowly cleaning up the city of leon...in what way are they doing so? You have stated that if you were I, Leon would be the choice....I guess it would be security concerns that would be taken into account that's why you would choose Leon? as you stated, it is a big ugly city. You seem to think it has an edge over morelia.......

another question that you might be able to shed light on....what about this city called Tepic? How woud you rate it in comparison to both Leon and Morelia for the same before said categories?


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Jack Marley said:


> Thanks for your reply. Much appreciated. You said they were slowly cleaning up the city of leon...in what way are they doing so? You have stated that if you were I, Leon would be the choice....I guess it would be security concerns that would be taken into account that's why you would choose Leon? as you stated, it is a big ugly city. You seem to think it has an edge over morelia.......
> 
> another question that you might be able to shed light on....what about this city called Tepic? How woud you rate it in comparison to both Leon and Morelia for the same before said categories?


Leon has a LOT of graffiti, but the city government is slowly "cleaning it up". I have "fought it" on my wall for 6-7 years and have just about won (sometimes I go 3-4 months without any). New road constructions are ongoing to help with traffic. 

Security , probably, but closer to other "neat" places I mentioned. Ease of access. Good "home base".

I can't help you with Tepic, except to say that I have heard there are security concerns there too. Maybe someone else can help. If you could "spell out" what exactly you are looking for, someone here can probably help more. Your choices are not very similar, IMHO.


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## Jack Marley (Sep 21, 2014)

Well, not being from Mexico, I am looking for a city where there is ok security and open sociable people. Not closed and narrow like in some places. Why would you think leon is a better choice in regards to Morelia? As you said, Morelia is a prettier city....


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## Jack Marley (Sep 21, 2014)

I dont know, but I have been told that people in leon are pretty rude and unfriendly......


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Jack Marley said:


> I dont know, but I have been told that people in leon are pretty rude and unfriendly......


Who told you that, I wonder.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Jack Marley said:


> Well, not being from Mexico, I am looking for a city where there is ok security and open sociable people. Not closed and narrow like in some places. Why would you think leon is a better choice in regards to Morelia? As you said, Morelia is a prettier city....


Leon is a better choice for me, at this time. For you, I don't have a clue. Leon does for me what I want it to do; secure, close to GTO, SMA, and D.H. and has wife's family. Open and friendly; that is in the eyes of the beholder. I can't speak for you. With wife's family, we are always being invited to events, parties, etc.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Jack Marley said:


> I dont know, but I have been told that people in leon are pretty rude and unfriendly......


I don't understand the discussion of friendliness. We have two threads running at the moment asking about whether people are friendly. Mostly, people all over the world respond to how I am. If I feel amicable and outgoing towards the world, it responds in kind. If I am having an off day and walk around with a scowl, people leave me alone.

In Mexico, people are more likely to greet a stranger passing on the street than any other country I have visited. By that standard, people here are more friendly. But once I, interact with someone, I find the response is more dependent on what I put into it, than any general characteristic.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I know an man in San Cristobal who told me the most unfriendly city is Puebla followed by San Cristobal de las Casas, funny because I have close friends in Puebla and many friends in San Cristobal.
People in the lake Chapala have the reputation of being friendly and I have very few friends here so I think the friendliness bit all depends on whay you do in a city. 
I have no interest in meeting random people and in going to parties, most people I am friendly with are in involved with artisans like I do.
In San Cristobal I am also very involved with artisans and most people I know and I am friendly with are either artists, artisans or involved with them. 
I make friends with people who have common interests but just being invited here and there by people I have very little in common with is just something I am not inerested in so I do not make friends that way,
Getting to know many people depends on your personality, your interests , your age and your willingness to meet people.
I find young people more willing to meet new nd different people and more open to people but that may be just me.. As far as cities being friendly what doe sthat mean? People are people everywhere nd just because they greet you on the street does not mean they will include you in their lifes.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

TundraGreen said:


> In Mexico, people are more likely to greet a stranger passing on the street than any other country I have visited. By that standard, people here are more friendly.


Obviously, T.G., you have never been to Texas. "Howdy" ! 
If that doesn't warm your blood, it's too late,


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Jack Marley said:


> Well, not being from Mexico, I am looking for a city where there is ok security and open sociable people. Not closed and narrow like in some places.....


Well, Jack, I'm going to take another "stab" at that. If, by " open and friendly", you mean do the following matter in Mexican society: race, color of skin, wealth, class, education, etc? The answer is a resounding "yes". More so than any country I have lived in. YMMV. Society is segregated here in Mexico. When you attend your first "party" you will see, as I did and do all the time. When we were married in Leon, wife's boss and wife attended for maybe 30 minutes (to sign papers and wish us well) and then left. She had worked for them for 16 years as a secretary/bookkeeper/sales manager. They were definitely "upper class" and the fiesta and others present were working class people.

But, really, Jack, don't most people associate with those whom they feel more comfortable and share similar ideas and beliefs? Citlali says it well in her "post". Everywhere, no? That's really just life to me. When blacks have a "party" aren't there usually just blacks there? And, whites do the same? ETC. ETC. I don't honestly take "offense" to this, do you? Is it right or wrong? Does it really matter? One makes their own "happiness", no?

A few people sometimes crossover, but that depends on the personality of people and how they interact with others. In Mexico, speaking good Spanish opens more doors. But, not all.

YMMV.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

coondawg said:


> Obviously, T.G., you have never been to Texas. "Howdy" !
> If that doesn't warm your blood, it's too late,


I have barely been to Texas, so you are correct, I was not thinking of Texas. I did spend 6 months in Oklahoma once. My perception there was that they were very friendly to locals, but pretty wary of strangers. We moved there from Berkeley, California and I think we were viewed with suspicion for that reason.


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## michmex (Jul 15, 2012)

coondawg said:


> Obviously, T.G., you have never been to Texas. "Howdy" !
> If that doesn't warm your blood, it's too late,


Add South Dakota and Nebraska to the list as well. Another sign is the hand waves from the steering wheel as you meet other drivers on the rural roads in these 3 states.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

TundraGreen said:


> I have barely been to Texas, so you are correct, I was not thinking of Texas. I did spend 6 months in Oklahoma once. My perception there was that they were very friendly to locals, but pretty wary of strangers. We moved there from Berkeley, California and I think we were viewed with suspicion for that reason.


Yep, Berkeley will tend to do that with southern folk.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

coondawg said:


> Yep, Berkeley will tend to do that with southern folk.


So what does "friendly" mean exactly. 
Oklahoma was as close as I got to any of the Southern US states. And that was my impression, very nice people as long as they considered you one of them. But not so much 
if you were an outsider.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

TundraGreen said:


> So what does "friendly" mean exactly.
> Oklahoma was as close as I got to any of the Southern US states. And that was my impression, very nice people as long as they considered you one of them. But not so much
> if you were an outsider.


I think that could be attitude left over from "carpetbag" times. Most people are not aware of the impact those types of people made on southerners. Not pleasant times. Southerners have LONG memories. So, since then, most people from "other" places are viewed "suspicious" until they find a way to build trust. 
Friendly just means acknowledging another person (maybe as if they were one of your own) with a "howdy", "wave of the hand", "nod of the head", etc. 

I digress, but I once ran out of gas just outside of Chapala. After trying to get someone to give me a ride back into Chapala for gas for nearly an hour, a car stopped, took me for gas, returned with me and the gas, and waited until I was on my way. The driver of the car was from Texas. To me, that is typical of southern people. YMMD.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

coondawg said:


> Well, Jack, I'm going to take another "stab" at that. If, by " open and friendly", you mean do the following matter in Mexican society: race, color of skin, wealth, class, education, etc? The answer is a resounding "yes". More so than any country I have lived in. YMMV. Society is segregated here in Mexico. When you attend your first "party" you will see, as I did and do all the time. When we were married in Leon, wife's boss and wife attended for maybe 30 minutes (to sign papers and wish us well) and then left. She had worked for them for 16 years as a secretary/bookkeeper/sales manager. They were definitely "upper class" and the fiesta and others present were working class people.
> 
> But, really, Jack, don't most people associate with those whom they feel more comfortable and share similar ideas and beliefs? Citlali says it well in her "post". Everywhere, no? That's really just life to me. When blacks have a "party" aren't there usually just blacks there? And, whites do the same? ETC. ETC. I don't honestly take "offense" to this, do you? Is it right or wrong? Does it really matter? One makes their own "happiness", no?
> 
> ...


I find the same thing as you do. The way to get into a social circle is belong to the socioeconomic class most are in or at least be related to one who is. Sometimes it is more obvious than at other times.

For an example at a wedding reception when the bride´s side of the room all sit together and the groom´s side all sit together and if one is from a different socioeconomic clase there seems to be almost no interaction except with the 2 getting married and perhaps their parents. It seems at a wedding where all are from the same class everyone intermingles much more.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


TundraGreen said:



I have barely been to Texas, so you are correct, I was not thinking of Texas. I did spend 6 months in Oklahoma once. My perception there was that they were very friendly to locals, but pretty wary of strangers. We moved there from Berkeley, California and I think we were viewed with suspicion for that reason.

Click to expand...

_Damn if I know ( in Alabama, DAMFINO) how a dscussion of the merits of living in Leon, Guanajuato versus Morelia, Michoacan (neither of which even remotely appeal to the Dawg whose favorite part of Mexico is its deep south and primarily Chiapas and Oaxaca States) veered off into a discussion of regional peculiarities in some parts of the United States but as long as we have ventured there:

I grew up in the 1940s and 1950s so deep in South Alabama that had I had a tendency to sleepwalk, I might have taken a wrong turn in a stupor and found myself afloat in the Gulf of Mexico upon having been awakened. That bestows upon Dawg the "honor" of being a scion of an extended caucasion family dating back several generations in that región so I thought I might contribute my worthless million Confederate Doilar stash to this debate since it is otherwise only valuable for igniting bonfires.

I hate to burst TG´s bubble but Oklahoma is a midwestern state as far as any true son or daugher of the south is concerned and the fact that those dust bowl plainsdrifters suffering generally from penury and a certain degree of social isolation are suspicious of "outsiders" (especially those arriving from Berkeley) is not a characteristic that can then be generally applied to folks of any race or creed living in the U.S. deep south. So, let´s concede that, if TG´s closest encounter with the politics and social milieu as defined as "deep southern", then, he ain´t been even close to there.

Let´s avoid the subject of "capetbaggers" as brought up by another poster and "scalawags" of the reconstruction era since those were complicated social and political movements worthy of a separate and in-depth discussion which is inappropriate here. Suffice it to say that. when I was growing up in the U.S. deep south, the terms "carpetbagger" and "scalawag" were never encountered in casual conversation and only came up during the study of the post-civil war reconstruction era in (segregated) high school American History classes Dawg suffered through in his immaturity. Southerners of all races may have long memories of the devastating reconstruction period and its terrible corruption that ended up setting back racial reconciliation for a century or so but that may be chalked up to mistakes of the past committed by folks long dead. Time to move on.

I particularly enjoyed TG´s remarks about his being viewed with suspicion in Oklahoma because he was from the "Peoples´Republic of Berkeley". My tale does not replicate his but I have another take on the notion of regional distrust and suspicion and its manifestations.

In the early 1970s, I had the good fortune to meet and marry my now French wife from Paris in Mobile where I was working as a banker and she had come to teach high school level French for a year before returning to France. Unfortunately for her she married me in the interim so so much for that plan. After we were married in Mobile, I talked her into moving to the San Francisco Bay Area where I had received a job offer at a major international bank - a must do opportunity. She agreed and off we went - settling in Downtown Oakland near Berkeley just across the bay from my banking position in the San Francisco Financial District.

Soon after we arrived in the Bay Area, my bank had a Christmas party for bank officers at an exclusive hotel on San Francisco´s Nob Hill and we attended; at one point becoming separated as we mingled among my new-found banking colleagues. As she wandered the floor engaging in small talk here and there, she encountered a bank officer who in casual conversation, discovered that she was a new arrival in the Bay Area and inquired as to how she had come to be there from her home in Paris. She repiled that she had actually come to the United States and settled in Mobile before subsequently moving to the Bay Area. The snooty bank officer sputtered in response; "But, how could you have moved to Mobile? That city is full of ********!" to which inquiry my wife responded; "Tell me, I married one." 

Regional ignorance is universal and unavoidable. I have witnessed it all over the world as a young man bumming about here and there. More recently, I learned during the past eight years we have resided part of each year in San Cristóbal de Las Casas in the Chiapas Highlands, not to tell local inquirers in Chiapas that we also lived at Lake Chapala - a place of which many had never heard. After a few vacant stares at the Lake Chapala response, I learned to respond that e also lived in the Guadalajara área part of each year. This Guadalajara response seemed to satisfy most Chiapas folks since Mexico´s second city is so well known but on my last visit to the Chiapas Highlands, the inquirer with whom I was speaking replied (in Spanish), "Oh yes, Guadalajara. Everyone there speaks English."

Mind your own nest, I say. You "ain´t gone" change the world.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Hound Dog said:


> …
> I hate to burst TG´s bubble but Oklahoma is a midwestern state as far as any true son or daugher of the south is concerned and the fact that those dust bowl plainsdrifters suffering generally from penury and a certain degree of social isolation are suspicious of "outsiders" (especially those arriving from Berkeley) is not a characteristic that can then be generally applied to folks of any race or creed living in the U.S. deep south. So, let´s concede that, if TG´s closest encounter with the politics and social milieu as defined as "deep southern", then, he ain´t been even close to there. …


You are absolutely right, Hound Dog, I have never been in the Deep South. And after watching Easy Rider, I, as a bearded motorcycle riding, ex-Alaskan, living in Mexico by way of Vermont and California, Berkeley no-less, would be terrified to go there. I will happily stay here with all the news reports of drug cartel violence before I visit the Deep South and have some local yokel blow me to oblivion with a shotgun because I have too much hair.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

I moved to the deep south once; bought a fixer-upper and went to work on it. At the end of the day, I often had a cold beer on the porch, thus getting labeled a Yankee Drunk. However, the actual alcoholic was the Baptist preacher who lived opposite. Eventually, we weakened and went to his church, as invitees, one Sunday. I broke out laughing under my breath; he saw me and realized the silliness of what he had just preached & broke up himself. We stayed friends, but but never went to church again.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

TundraGreen said:


> You are absolutely right, Hound Dog, I have never been in the Deep South. And after watching Easy Rider, I, as a bearded motorcycle riding, ex-Alaskan, living in Mexico by way of Vermont and California, Berkeley no-less, would be terrified to go there. I will happily stay here with all the news reports of drug cartel violence before I visit the Deep South and have some local yokel blow me to oblivion with a shotgun because I have too much hair.


Ah, yes TG. _Easy Rider _(1969), written as a collaborative effort by Peter Fonda, Dennis Hopper and Terry Southern. Produced by Fonda and directed by Hopper. My personal introduction to Jack Nicholson who, over time, became one of my true héroes of the cinema who, it is reported, recently retired at age 76. My darlin´wife and I, she fresh out of France, saw that movie in one of Mobile´s top movie theaters and really enjoyed it at the time. The movie was quite the hit in South Alabama and all attendees took to the highways in the late evening after the film and, as far as I know, all arrived home safely without having encountered violent ******** in pickup trucks intent on mayhem. along the way.

Back in the late 60s, Dawg was not a biker but liked to cruise around in an MG convertible with the top down and locks blowing in the breeze all over back country roads in South Alabama and Coastal Northern California and somehow got away with it without being shot ot assauted. I had moved to San Francisco in 1967 lured by the Summer of Love in the Haight and later, after becoming disillusioned with that fiasco, moved on to rural Coastal Northern California traveling frequently over back country roads along the coast and deeply forested inland áreas from my home in the Santa Cruz Mountains to as far north as Crescent City in Del Norte County near the Oregon border and this was hairy and somewhat lawless territory in the back country - especially since the deep woods in that región were infested with some rather unpleasant types. At one point during this time, even sheriff´s deputies cruised some of these back roads only in forcé - never alone. 

Damn if I know how either of us survived those days.

We had been impressed with _Easy Rider _when it first came aout in the early 70s but we were young and impressionable then. We happened upon _Easy Rider _many years later in about 2010 on some late night movie channel here in Mexico and found it hopelessly dated, laughably naive and self-indulgent. The movie hadn´t changed but we had become much older and more cynical. Best to commit some things to fond memory and let them lie.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


RVGRINGO said:



I moved to the deep south once; bought a fixer-upper and went to work on it. At the end of the day, I often had a cold beer on the porch, thus getting labeled a Yankee Drunk. However, the actual alcoholic was the Baptist preacher who lived opposite. Eventually, we weakened and went to his church, as invitees, one Sunday. I broke out laughing under my breath; he saw me and realized the silliness of what he had just preached & broke up himself. We stayed friends, but but never went to church again.

Click to expand...

_I´m surprised you were assessed as a "Yankee Drunk" in this deep southern town to which you moved once, RV simply because you sat on your front porch indulging in beer after working on your fixer-upper during the day. Sitting on the front porch of one´s home in small southern towns at the end of the work day indulging in intoxicating spirits - usually bourbon or other whiskey products or, perhaps gins and tonic or other mixed drinks, is a time honored tradition. Perhaps it was the beer that was considered unworthy among town sots indulging in hard liquor observing your ritual drink at the end of the day that put them off. Beer ,down there, is what you drink while driving your beat-up old, dented pickup with the Confederate license plates down back-country farm roads throwing the empty cans at passing farm animals, not an acceptable front porch beverage suitable for one´s rocking chair in the evening. 

What surprises me more than anything is that anyone even remembered what you were drinking the next day or what they were drinking for that matter much less that you would be called to task for such an ordinary habit. Down south, where overindulgence in hard liquor is rather commonplace, it is normal not to remember what one consumed for supper the night before and this must not be mistaken as the first signs of dementia or they would have to institutionalize half the town.

As for the Baptist preacher providing his definition of a moral compass for followers in a land of exquisite hypocrisy; he, of all people, needs this small palliative to see him through his work day.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

coondawg said:


> Obviously, T.G., you have never been to Texas. "Howdy" !
> If that doesn't warm your blood, it's too late,


I guess my only comment is that if that "Howdy" is for everyone Texans meet, then they are truly friendly. If it is just for friends and neighbors, while outsiders are viewed with suspicion, then maybe not.

Yankees can have issues with outsiders as well. My father's family had connections to a small town in Maine. There, anyone that had been there less than many generations was questionable. On my rare visits, I was sort of accepted because I was the son of or cousin of some locals, but I have never felt at home in that kind of environment. 

I grew up in Alaska where everyone was from somewhere else. I was normally the only kid in my class that had been born there. The yearbook listed the original state of all of the teachers, primarily because none were Alaskan. As a side note, Anchorage had a population of 5000 when I was born. When I left after high school the population was 100,000, today it is 300,000+. That was obviously not the result of a high birth rate, that was first the cold war, then oil.

I think that experience forever turned me off of places where it is mostly locals and anyone not born there is viewed with suspicion even after they have been there for years. I like living in Mexico, because my friends and neighbors seem to accept me even though I am different and always will be.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I agree about this, paces where you have mostly locals have a tendency to be suspecious of strangers and of people who are from somewhere else. amy parents would spend the summer in a small fishing town south of Bordeaux where my grand-parents also spent summers there. We lived in Paris the rest of the year, we were semi accepeted but were silll called ny many the Parisiens and believe me this is not a compliment. e had vacacinned there for 3 generations , my grand parents were from 200km south of there, I understood th dialect and yet we were the Parisiens, all locals referred to each other by nickname and we had nicknames but that was the only concession.
People who had homes there and came from Bordeaaux 50km from there were the Bordelais and the other were the "estrangers". One thing different from the area further north is is that people would all say " adios" when passing each others.
We played a game a couple of years ago and said hi to strangers we met while walking on a small island north of there..no one responded and were were totally ignored or looked at suspeciously.
We had a kick and laughed about it but now that is unfriendly and it is something you just do not experience in Mexico.


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## 2ndtime (Aug 7, 2015)

*Living Budget for Morelia or Leon*

Hello, First post from 2ndtime 
>
I don't know how many members there are on this site so this is my last posting regarding....my budget...as not to ask the same question TOO many times and have the same people responding (and VERY much appreciated)
>
I am asking for some feedback on my budget from those LIVING IN MORELIA AND/OR LEON or know about it.
>
I am returning to Mexico to “retire.” and am investigating the year round "spring Time" cities
>
I lived In Guadalajara from 1985 to 1990. I still speak a very respectable Spanish. 

Below is my NOW net per month USD budget ( I think in dollars for now) to live. 
I will walk the neighborhoods and find my own apartment in a 100% Spanish speaking area. 
>
QUESTION: In today’s market, is it possible to rent long term simple, clean 1 (maybe 2) bedroom apartment (furnished /amueblado) (Not Gated) in an “OK” area (I am very comfortable in my ‘presence’ and my Spanish), with the BELOW following budget (USD )....AND IF POSSIBLE...Which category am I over or under budgeted
>
RENT 450/475 - MOST IMPORTANT
Electric and Gas	75
Food At Home 300
Water 40
Internet (Fastest)	85
Direct TV 50
Cell Phones 50
Entertainment 100
Mail Forwarding Svc	40
Toileties / Meds	15
Public Transp 75
Misc 75
Total $1,355
International Medical Insurance is already paid for 
>
(Entertainment is dining out 2-4 times a week at an everyday local restaurant and enjoying live music and movies any nights of the week I want.
>
I will have a 90 day tourist visa and the American counselot (sp) will extend it an other 90 days (At least they did back then)
>
Muchas gracias


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## lagoloo (Apr 12, 2011)

One issue to deal with is whether your income is sufficient to get a visa. (I realize that "budget" and "income" aren't necessarily the same.) There have been changes in requirements in the last few years.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

From my experiences of visiting Morelia and living in Leon, your budget is more than adequate to live well in either place.


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## 2ndtime (Aug 7, 2015)

*Budget-Income*



lagoloo said:


> One issue to deal with is whether your income is sufficient to get a visa. (I realize that "budget" and "income" aren't necessarily the same.) There have been changes in requirements in the last few years.


Plan on crossing borders every 180 days in the beginning, 
>
Thanks for your input


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## 2ndtime (Aug 7, 2015)

*As Always*



coondawg said:


> From my experiences of visiting Morelia and living in Leon, your budget is more than adequate to live well in either place.


Thanks Again


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## 2ndtime (Aug 7, 2015)

*My budget is "ok", but where*



coondawg said:


> From my experiences of visiting Morelia and living in Leon, your budget is more than adequate to live well in either place.


Thanks so much.
>
EVERYONE...Your Thoughts Please
>
your Opinion, Best "Spring Time Weather" small to medium "City" with colonial feel and where people think in pesos and a "******" is not a foreign sight but it is NOT A very common sight either.
>
FYI- 
-Energetic and fun Single, Health 63 y.o. male. on SS retirement 
-Will be a full time student attending online college earning my Master's in Info Systems Tech. 
-I speak a respectable Spanish / know the culture and am very comfortable being part of it. 
-Want to date Mexican woman, 40-55 y.o.
-I will assimilate well and I don't need a whole lot of Gringos around. (but its fun to come together with my USA Expats every once in a while and shoot the breeze) . 
-My budget of $1300/Mn USD. Budget checks out for simple, clean, 1-2 Bedroom Apt in UN-gated all Mexican "OK" neighborhood...with NO car....
>
and all this vs. somewhere in Nicaragua
>
Decisions,Decisions, Decisions
>
THANKS TO ALL WHO RESPOND...


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

We find Spring Time Weather to be best NOB in Texas, so that is where we go. In many parts of Mexico that we have visited, the weather seems very hot from about the middle of March to the middle of June. Much nicer in Texas, outside Austin, for us. Once the rains start in June, things get much better here until the cycle repeats itself. (a few places can get really cold in winter). Before we started returning NOB while living in Chapala, we often went to Patzcuaro, Michoacán, for several days at a time, when days in Chapala became unbearably hot to us. We always liked Patzcuaro and Morelia(hotter), but there is more violence in Michoacán than other places. For someone with your background, I would think that would not be a major deterrent for you.
Lots of history in that area, cool nights, less extranjeros and they pretty much mind their own business, easy pace, Spanish, pesos, attractive women, etc.
A member here (Anonimo) lives in that area and has for about 10 years, so you might PM him as he is very helpful, if it sounds promising to you. If possible, maybe you can narrow to 3-4 places and try to spend a little time in each to help you decide. Leon is generally good for us, as wife's large family is here, and we like the convenience of nearby cities such as Guanajuato, Dolores Hidalgo, San Miguel de Allende, etc. Lots of history and pretty areas, but Leon is just a Big (2 million) ugly, city, and it gets hot for 3 months. Interesting, in that I have kept tabs on the temperature of Chapala and Leon and compared them for the last 2 months, and actually Leon has better weather over that time than Chapala. Interesting, no?


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## 2ndtime (Aug 7, 2015)

*Maybe you knew and maybe you didn't*



coondawg said:


> We find Spring Time Weather to be best NOB in Texas, so that is where we go. In many parts of Mexico that we have visited, the weather seems very hot from about the middle of March to the middle of June. Much nicer in Texas, outside Austin, for us. Once the rains start in June, things get much better here until the cycle repeats itself. (a few places can get really cold in winter). Before we started returning NOB while living in Chapala, we often went to Patzcuaro, Michoacán, for several days at a time, when days in Chapala became unbearably hot to us. We always liked Patzcuaro and Morelia(hotter), but there is more violence in Michoacán than other places. For someone with your background, I would think that would not be a major deterrent for you.
> Lots of history in that area, cool nights, less extranjeros and they pretty much mind their own business, easy pace, Spanish, pesos, attractive women, etc.
> A member here (Anonimo) lives in that area and has for about 10 years, so you might PM him as he is very helpful, if it sounds promising to you. If possible, maybe you can narrow to 3-4 places and try to spend a little time in each to help you decide. Leon is generally good for us, as wife's large family is here, and we like the convenience of nearby cities such as Guanajuato, Dolores Hidalgo, San Miguel de Allende, etc. Lots of history and pretty areas, but Leon is just a Big (2 million) ugly, city, and it gets hot for 3 months. Interesting, in that I have kept tabs on the temperature of Chapala and Leon and compared them for the last 2 months, and actually Leon has better weather over that time than Chapala. Interesting, no?


 >
I lived in GDL for 5 years from 1985-1990. So it's it my alma mater (and be true to your school)
>
1- GDL is on the same latitude as Hawaii, hence the warm weather.
>
2-GDL is a mile high city (I still don't think in metrics) hence the warm weather is NOT hot.
>
3-GDL rainy season is in the summer. Torrential rain/thunder storms 3-5 PM every day (you can almost set your watch to it) and watch all that hot weather turn to steam and evaporate away.
>
4-Mean average temperature 72 F (Still think in F). NEVER needed A/C!! Sleep with the lightest of blanket on and day time, The ONLY thing I need to think about was which pair of sunglasses to wear.
>
5-I hear that those polluting buses are a thing of the past now (I hope that's right)
>
6-Nice bunch of people
>
7-Even With X million of people, the ENTIRE city shut down between 2-4 for lunch and a siesta.
>
I lay down the gauntlet and dare anyone to find better YEAR ROUND weather/climate in Mexico, Latin America or the World!


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Actually, my mom, (92 and still sharp as a tack) lived many years in La Jolla, CA, and she would pick up that gauntlet and hit you with it !  Few can afford to live there, but it is indeed "special".


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Nairobi has a wonderful climate as well and you would probably find equally nice climate anywhere in in the tropics at the same altitude.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Hi Citlali ! Long time ! How is the Hound Dog doing?


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Thanks, he is ok recooping from a back surgery.


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## 2ndtime (Aug 7, 2015)

*You Forgot......*



coondawg said:


> Actually, my mom, (92 and still sharp as a tack) lived many years in La Jolla, CA, and she would pick up that gauntlet and hit you with it !  Few can afford to live there, but it is indeed "special".


>
You did not take into account, its located in in the USA + that is VERY expensive place to live. Minus 10,000 points, GDL wins!!! (Yea for my team) ....Who's Next??


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## 2ndtime (Aug 7, 2015)

*Safety index*



citlali said:


> Nairobi has a wonderful climate as well and you would probably find equally nice climate anywhere in in the tropics at the same altitude.


>
Sorry wrong place


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## 2ndtime (Aug 7, 2015)

*Safety counts too*

By City (Numbeo Higher Number > Safer City, Max 100)*
Augascalientes, MX 72
Denver, CO 65
Queretaro,MX 61
Santiago, Chile 51
Guanajuato, MX 46
GDL 42
Houston, TX 42
Oakland 22
Caracas, Venezuela 13 

*Not familiar with Numbeo, check it out, A LOT of up to date and 'REAL' good info


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