# Ways of Living in Spain



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

This morning I went into town to attend a meeting called by our new PP Consejala for Tourism and Foreign Residents, a very smart, on-the-ball young woman. The meeting was attended by mainly elderly people of various nationalities, British, Dutch, German, American, Scandinavian, Polish and some Spanish people who had recently moved into the area. The meeting was conducted in English, which the Spaniards present had no difficulty in understanding. The gathering was almost entirely what a British person would describe as 'middle-class': not a tattoo, beer belly or Burberry baseball cap among them.
The meeting wasn't of much interest to me, really...I only went as our charity likes to show its face wherever and whenever. But several things about the meeting struck me.
Firstly, an enormous effort is being made by the Ayto. to make foreign residents' lives here as happy and comfortable as possible. I can't imagine a similar meeting being held in towns in the UK which have experienced a large number of immigrants.
The Consejala was genuinely interested in hearing the views and needs of we incomers and there was a definite dialogue taking place. 
The second thing was how fit, healthy and happy these elderly foreigners, most in their seventies and even eighties were. Tanned, smartly dressed, sociable.....They weren't obviously wealthy but were enjoying a lifestyle so different to that of most of their UK compatriots.
I got to pondering about 'integration', a topic we often discuss on this forum. I would guess that most of the attendees spoke very little if any Spanish and probably spent most of their time living and socialising within their own national communities. Most seemed to have been in Spain for around ten years or so. Yet in a strange way I got the feeling that these very pleasant people had managed to find a way of living that in its own way was the perfect kind of integration...a natural, non-forced way of co-habiting with their newish country of residence. Many of them belonged to 'national' societies which raised money for Spanish charities and which organised events attended by and much appreciated by the host community.
It seemed to me that this was very much a two-way thing: each 'community' benefitting in many ways from its interaction with the other 'communities'. A veritable United Nations, in fact.
So maybe true integration isn't a reneging on your national culture and going native to the extent that someone once described as becoming a 'plastic Spaniard'. Maybe it's this communion of differences that represents something truly positive in life in Spain.
I have to admit I felt rather envious of these people who seemed so happy and confident with their new lives.
The organisations I belong to are varied in composition -our charity is multi-national but deals mainly with Spanish people and my political party is of course Spanish. I don't really feel British, I'd say I feel more European. But it seems the audience this morning were enjoying the best of both their worlds.
Incidentally, the setting for the meeting was the Palacio de Congresos, an attractive modern building set in beautifully landscaped surroundings of lakes with waterfalls and wildfowl, manicured lawns and carefully selected trees, shrubs and other foliage. Council meetings are held there and if a good environment creates a good mind-set, these meetings should be friendly, co-operative and constructive, although having much experience of such meetings I very much doubt that's the case...
I drove home feeling very contented....


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Interesting.
Would love to comment later on after I've completed the second round of classes for the day


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Where's the 'like very much indeed' button? Perfect mirror of my own view on integration. Although I suppose it's possible that Estepona is one of only a few places that such a meeting could take place.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Your world is so different to ours.........................


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Hepa said:


> Your world is so different to ours.........................


And to mine, and to those who live in Galicia, Asturias, the Basque country, and other parts of the south of Spain.
At this moment in my life I couldn't stand living on an island in "the middle of nowhere", and don't think I'm one for crowds, bars and shopping centres, but I'm not ready for island life either. Maybe later on...


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> And to mine, and to those who live in Galicia, Asturias, the Basque country, and other parts of the south of Spain.
> At this moment in my life I couldn't stand living on an island in "the middle of nowhere", and don't think I'm one for crowds, bars and shopping centres, but I'm not ready for island life either. Maybe later on...


Madam is very hard to please


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Mrypg9.
It sounds good!
The PP seem to have become VERY aware since the municiple elections that they need the immigrant population on their side, and as the PSOE aren't doing anything special to capture that vote as far as I know, they stand to win a good few over. So, not surprisingly I see it as a totally political move on their part, but if relations improve and both sides end up gaining, what does it matter!!?

I know what you mean about people seeming happy with their lives with out necessarily participating fully in the local community. They seem to have found a path to follow and are happy, much as was described on the programme that Alcalaina posted a few days ago.

On a personal note, I can't imagine not being able to communicate my day to day needs in a community. I would feel isolated, disorientated and insecure. I also see these people's lives as very fragile. If something goes "wrong", their partner becomes very sick, or dies, they have problems with their house etc the whole thing goes up in smoke. However, not having reached my 60's let alone my 80's, perhaps my perception will change and I'll want to go to live in a Greek island where I know no one, can't speak the language and spend my days hunting down a british newspaper and cornflakes for breakfast


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Hepa said:


> Madam is very hard to please


Madam?!?!

Madam is not hard to please at all.

Madam needs husband and daughter around as much as possible, a couple of friends, cheese, one medium sized mountain, one a little higher to contemplate and to climb up and down weather permitting, and (this is the difficult one), once a month/ every 6 weeks to go to a museum, cinema, exhibition, magic show, spa, ... smth different. In times of crisis,(vacas flacas) emotional or otherwise, this can be pared down temporarily. On the other hand, in times of bonanza (vacas gordas) it can be built on - extensively.

Very flexible actually


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

Whatever Madam wishes


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

There are about 15 Northern Europeans in our town, mainly Brits, and last week were were invited to a meeting with the new Consejala for Culture and Tourism to talk about ways of attracting more visitors to the town. It isn't traditionally a touristy place, but it is a very pretty pueblo blanco with loads of character, located in a natural park.

It was very successful; everybody turned up bursting with ideas and volunteering to produce maps for cyclists and walkers, provide website copy, English menu translations etc. We've also set up a group intercambio for mutual language-learning support.

She is from the IU who are governing in coalition with the PP in Alcala after decades of PSOE. They never made a single gesture towards collaboration with the incomers; our offers to translate their lamentably poor tourist website fell on deaf ears.

So - progress. It might be a Big Society ploy to get volunteers, but on such a small scale that it doesn't really matter. It's always nice to feel part of a team, and nice to be able to give something back to the place that has made us so welcome.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> There are about 15 Northern Europeans in our town, mainly Brits, and last week were were invited to a meeting with the new Consejala for Culture and Tourism to talk about ways of attracting more visitors to the town. It isn't traditionally a touristy place, but it is a very pretty pueblo blanco with loads of character, located in a natural park.
> 
> It was very successful; everybody turned up bursting with ideas and volunteering to produce maps for cyclists and walkers, provide website copy, English menu translations etc. We've also set up a group intercambio for mutual language-learning support.
> 
> ...


Along with mrypg9's story that pretty impressive! Just as well we can't vote in the next elections - I might have caught myself voting PP. Aarrghhhhh!!
Come to think of it NO WAY. Give OH back his job, and the other 3,000 teachers too, and start being sensible about education. Then we might start talking!
(2 days of strikes, and one other day of student strikes this week in Madrid)


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> And to mine, and to those who live in Galicia, Asturias, the Basque country, and other parts of the south of Spain.
> At this moment in my life I couldn't stand living on an island in "the middle of nowhere", and don't think I'm one for crowds, bars and shopping centres, but I'm not ready for island life either. Maybe later on...


I was going to say the very same thing.


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Along with mrypg9's story that pretty impressive! Just as well we can't vote in the next elections - *I might have caught myself voting PP. Aarrghhhhh!!*
> Come to think of it NO WAY. Give OH back his job, and the other 3,000 teachers too, and start being sensible about education. Then we might start talking!
> (2 days of strikes, and one other day of student strikes this week in Madrid)


Oh, oh dear. 
Are you feeling well?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

halydia said:


> Oh, oh dear.
> Are you feeling well?


Actually, no!
I've had a mild headache for a few days now - perhaps to the temperature of 30ish degrees every day since September. When are the temperatures going to go down!!!
I bet it's the PPs fault!


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> ...
> *Firstly, an enormous effort is being made by the Ayto. to make foreign residents' lives here as happy and comfortable as possible. I can't imagine a similar meeting being held in towns in the UK which have experienced a large number of immigrants.*...
> 
> 
> Incidentally, the setting for the meeting was the Palacio de Congresos, an attractive modern building set in beautifully landscaped surroundings of lakes with waterfalls and wildfowl, manicured lawns and carefully selected trees, shrubs and other foliage. Council meetings are held there and if a good environment creates a good mind-set, these meetings should be friendly, co-operative and constructive, although having much experience of such meetings I very much doubt that's the case...


Alright, I'm going to be a nattering nabob of negativity here. 

Are they maintaining the same level of dialogue with other major immigrant groups, including Central and South Americans, Moroccans, and Eastern Europeans? Like any city in Spain, I'd imagine that even Marbella has this sort of immigration as well. Would these meetings, too, be held in such plush surroundings? 

Maybe I'm bitter because I've seen so many España 2000 posters plastered up in the past. Maybe it's comments I've overheard from party faithful. Maybe it's policy proposals such as the one presented by the PP in Catalunya a year ago. 

Something strange is happening to me in Spain. Back home, I tended to lean to the right. However, in Spain, _no trago_ the PP. 

In the event that the PP Marbella _has_ had the same sort of meeting just as culturally sensitive (in English! _que lujo!_), with other immigrant groups, I will willingly stand corrected.


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Actually, no!
> I've had a mild headache for a few days now - perhaps to the temperature of 30ish degrees every day since September. When are the temperatures going to go down!!!
> I bet it's the PPs fault!


PW, it's clear that there's just too much hot air coming out of official mouths in Madrid.


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> This morning I went into town to attend a meeting called by our new PP Consejala for Tourism and Foreign Residents, a very smart, on-the-ball young woman. The meeting was attended by mainly elderly people of various nationalities, British, Dutch, German, American, Scandinavian, Polish and some Spanish people who had recently moved into the area. The meeting was conducted in English, which the Spaniards present had no difficulty in understanding. The gathering was almost entirely what a British person would describe as 'middle-class': not a tattoo, beer belly or Burberry baseball cap among them.
> 
> 
> Pity the meeting was held on a week day morning, preventing anyone living and *working *in Marbella from attending!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

halydia said:


> PW, it's clear that there's just too much hot air coming out of official mouths in Madrid.


Good one Halydia!!


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## Guest (Oct 4, 2011)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Good one Halydia!!


As my dad would say, you left that one wiiide open.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Why are you talking about Marbella?


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2011)

jimenato said:


> Why are you talking about Marbella?


Because OP said they "went into town" and their location is listed as Marbella. If I am wrong, please correct me.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

halydia said:


> Because OP said they "went into town" and their location is listed as Marbella. If I am wrong, please correct me.



A few points: the location is Estepona. I am a minutes walk from the Municipal Boundary.I live in a village, not in Marbella.
Most of the people at the meeting were perfectly able to speak Spanish, if not fluently, then certainly at a level where they could look after themselves. That became clear in conversation with them. They were fully aware of the facilities the Ayto offered and attended cultural and other events aimed largely at the Spanish community.
Yes, Moroccan and South American immigrants are included. I have attended fairs and other events where they have been heavily represented.
The meeting was held early in the morning and lasted an hour. I said the participants were mainly elderly but there were a few people of working age.
What struck me most was the ease with which these foreigners from many lands had melded into their new home. As I said, most could speak some Spanish and knew their way about local institutions. But they had kept their own cultural habits and traditions too. To my mind there's something artificial about trying to abandon your past just because you've decided to up sticks and move to another country.
To me true integration is living alongside your new community, not trying to melt into it.
Hepa...Spain is many different worlds. There is not one Spain but many Spains, from small islands to big cities to small towns, to villages like mine which are oases of comparative tranquillity to what lies a few km up the road.
Benidorm is Spain just as Blackpool is the UK, like them or loathe them.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Re the PP: I have spent over four decades of my life working for left of centre parties and organisations. Having said that, I have tried to retain my critical faculties and keep well away from the 'my Party right or wrong' attitude.
The stated education policies of the PP are imo self-defeating. Their economic policies will not diverge greatly from those the PSOE would implement, whatever they may say in the campaign, as they will do what the markets and IMF tell them.
The last PSOE administration left our town 300 million euros of debt. Funds were diverted for other purposes and many worthwhile projects abandoned for lack of funds. The town and surrounding villages were showing signs of neglect: weeds everywhere, uncollected rubbish, cracked pavements, no street lighting.
Since the PP win in May there has been a marked and visible improvement.
The former PSOE Alcalde is a warm, big-hearted,human bear of a man. The new PP Alcalde, a wealthy notary, is a relatively cold, austere administrator. In five months he has managed to restart several important projects abandoned by the previous administration for lack of funds and has initiated smaller but equally important things such as repairing all the fountains, paying the municipal band so it could give a series of free concerts, making a start on repairing street furniture, putting more police on the streets and so on.
On the less desireable side he has set up a commission to oversee a privatisation programme and has cut payments and allowances to Consejales which penalises the less well-off.
But being objective, it's clear that this new Ayto. has a facility for managing money and attending to the basics that most citizens notice and care about on a day-to-day basis that the previous Alcalde didn't have. Too much time was spent on inner-party splits and schisms too often leading to expulsions from the ruling group which gave an impression of chaos and navel-gazing.
I cannot imagine casting a vote for PP but it would be silly not to give credit where a small amount of credit is due.
Most people want a clean, attractive town with working affordable facilities and don't give a damn about the ideology or lack of in the people elected to run it. They want capable administrators not political philosophers.
The massive PP vote wasn't against the PSOE 'creed' but against its incompetence and inefficiency.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> A few points: the location is Estepona. I am a minutes walk from the Municipal Boundary.I live in a village, not in Marbella.


So why have Marbella as your location on the forum then?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

And wanted to add but left it too late: imo the PSOE election campaign last spring was too full of bile and anatagonism towards their PP opponents. Too much harking back to Franco, atrocities, silly off-the-cuff remarks by PP contenders....all attack-dog stuff and not enough projection of what should be done to create jobs and provide more facilities.
We all know about the terrible things that happened in the Civil War and the Franco era and of course these things shouldn't and won't be forgotten or glossed over. But most of the new PP contingent here are young, many of them women who have no time for the more conservative, reactionary views expressed undoubtedly by some in the PP.
You can't put the politics of 1936 into those of 2011.
It's not done in Germany any longer and it shouldn't be done here.
You don't forget and you keep your eyes and ears open for bad echoes from the past but you live in the present and plan for the future.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> So why have Marbella as your location on the forum then?


Because it's the nearest recognisable location. Simple as that. Maybe I should change it to Malaga?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> What struck me most was the ease with which these foreigners from many lands had melded into their new home. As I said, most could speak some Spanish and knew their way about local institutions. But they had kept their own cultural habits and traditions too.


Apart from a few sad souls who sit in their villas complaining about the heat and the flies and watching British TV all day, that description fits pretty well every immigrant I've met in Spain. I'm quite surprised you were surprised by it. 

Even the ones who have Spanish partners and rarely mix with other foreigners still retain and enjoy their cultural differences.

That doesn't mean that as a foreigner you can't embrace Spanish customs and traditions too, or reject some of the sillier British ones. You pick the best of both worlds.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Apart from a few sad souls who sit in their villas complaining about the heat and the flies and watching British TV all day, that description fits pretty well every immigrant I've met in Spain. I'm quite surprised you were surprised by it.
> 
> Even the ones who have Spanish partners and rarely mix with other foreigners still retain and enjoy their cultural differences.
> 
> That doesn't mean that as a foreigner you can't embrace Spanish customs and traditions too, or reject some of the sillier British ones. You pick the best of both worlds.


I was surprised because I don't normally come across groups of people like that.
I don't think it's a case of pick and choose, really. That implies a conscious choice and I don't think many people do that.
What Spanish customs and traditions can immigrants 'embrace' rather than merely observe, I wonder?
Perhaps 'adapt to' might be a more suitable phrase? You can enjoy different ways of living without feeling you have to join in.
I'm trying but can't adapt to the custom of dining when it's almost my bedtime.
The main impression I got from yesterday was that there was a very mixed group of older people who were clearly enjoying life in a way I hadn't come across in the UK.
Good luck to them


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Because it's the nearest recognisable location. Simple as that. Maybe I should change it to Malaga?


Is Estepona not recognisable then? I remember when I first "met" you being confused that you were talking about your PSOE _alcalde_ and I couldn't picture Marbella being PSOE!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Is Estepona not recognisable then? I remember when I first "met" you being confused that you were talking about your PSOE _alcalde_ and I couldn't picture Marbella being PSOE!


We've lived in three different locations since we came here ....I hate moving. And it was the nearest at one time.
I couldn't see the point of changing my location now that we are (hopefully) finally settled.
We now live equidistant from both megapolises but gravitate towards Estepona as I don't like Marbella. OH likes it and goes for medical and dental treatment and shopping but if I have to 'go to town' I much prefer Estepona. OH enjoys 'dresing up' and always glams up when going to Marbella but that is no way my scene so Estepona is more amenable to a shorts and jeans and un-made-up type like me.
A friend who lives in San Pedro (another 'normal' place I like) also gravitates to Estepona although she lives within the Marbella Ayto catchment area. It's a more unpretentious,friendly place with a relaxed ambience, very family-orientated.
Our dog charity is located nearer to Casares but we're registered in Estepona and I pester the Estepona Ayto for support - I also pester Casares and Manilva and any businessperson with money I can get to. Tomorrow I'm dining with a businessman from Guernsey in the hope of persuading him to finance the clinic we run at our perrera.
Incidentally, I am lounging by the pool reading J.G. Ballard's 'Super Cannes'. 
His novel 'Cocaine Nights' is set in a barely-disguised version of Sotogrande, from which it is said he took his inspiration...Well worth a read if you haven't read it already.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Incidentally, I am lounging by the pool reading J.G. Ballard's 'Super Cannes'.
> His novel 'Cocaine Nights' is set in a barely-disguised version of Sotogrande, from which it is said he took his inspiration...Well worth a read if you haven't read it already.


I read it when we first moved here - put me off gated communities for life!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> I read it when we first moved here - put me off gated communities for life!



' a thousand balconies facing the sun....'


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