# EX-18 Advice



## CharlieMCFC (Jan 27, 2016)

Hello. I've just moved to Valencia. I've no intention of moving back to Blighty, so this is a permanent move for me. I am doing my EX-18 application and struggling somewhat with section 4 – Situation in Spain. I've searched this forum and Googled for examples, but no 2 articles seem to give the same advice! I'm stuck on the Temporary or Permanent residence question. Some people say that your first application can only be a temporary one, then you convert this to permanent at a later stage. Others say the same, that you can only initially apply for temporary residence, but as the residence certificate has no expiry date, it doesn't matter. And finally some say apply for permanent residence straight away. So, which option? And why?

If temporary, what date do I put in "Envisaged period of residence in Spain"? 

If permanent, what do I do as none of the boxes under that heading apply to me? Tick "Other"?

Am I correct in thinking that being an EU citizen does not give me the right to live here, I still need to prove income and health insurance? Not a problem, I'm just interested.

Thanks!


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Hi Charlie. 

This may answer some of your questions. It's a translation of the form in English.

http://www.expat-management.at/_TCg...Residence Europeans _English explanations.pdf


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Hi Charlie

As an EU citizen you have a right to live in Spain or any other EU member state. Spain has an additional requirement that you need to prove income and health cover if you plan to stay more than 3 months. If you're planning to stay, go for Permanent residency. I don't have the form in front of me so don't know what the box options are; "other" sounds like a good bet. You can always clarify this when you go to the oficina de extranjeros to submit the form.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> Hi Charlie
> 
> As an EU citizen you have a right to live in Spain or any other EU member state. Spain has an additional requirement that you need to prove income and health cover if you plan to stay more than 3 months. If you're planning to stay, go for Permanent residency. I don't have the form in front of me so don't know what the box options are; "other" sounds like a good bet. You can always clarify this when you go to the oficina de extranjeros to submit the form.


Here's the form in English:

http://extranjeros.empleo.gob.es/es.../18-Certificado_Residencia_comunitaria_EN.pdf

I have no idea as to answering your questions, but maybe someone else can look at the form and help you?


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Someone = subtle hint to Alcalaina...


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Yep, use the link in post #4. 

Please don't listen to 'bar room chat' and you won't go far wrong.

The first time you sign on the list of foreigners can, of course, be permanent. It certainly should be in your case. Then check as many boxes below that as are applicable - certainly the first one asking about 5 year residency.

Best of luck - best to ask for advice on here as we've all been there and got the tee-shirt!


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

As Alcalaina posted earlier you have freedom of movement and right of residence in Spain, under the Treaty of Maastricht. However, under the Eu Directive published in 2004, and transcribed into Spanish law in 2007, each country has the right to require you to register your presence after 90 days. Part of the registration process includes the need to demonstrate that you will not be a burden on the social security system. So this includes either having a job, or demonstrating sufficient resources including medical cover.

Once you have been legally resident in the country for 5 years, then under the directive you have the right of permanent residence. At this stage, if you wish, you can apply for a registration certificate which confirms your status, but there is no need to, as your right comes from the Directive (and Spanish law).

So, in the first instance, you can only ever apply for temporary residence.

There are some instances where you can acquire the right to permanent residence earlier, e.g if you have been resident for 3 years, and working for at least 1 year, and you retire because you have reached the age of retirement.


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## CharlieMCFC (Jan 27, 2016)

Thank you everyone for taking time to advise me. Unfortunately, I don't feel any wiser, as again recommendations are split between temporary and permanent residence and I've no idea which is the best way to proceed.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

CharlieMCFC said:


> Thank you everyone for taking time to advise me. Unfortunately, I don't feel any wiser, as again recommendations are split between temporary and permanent residence and I've no idea which is the best way to proceed.


I've never filled out that form, so don't first hand, but....

I see where it's confusing, because under permanent residency it says five years as the first option, and you could think that it is if you're planning on staying for five years, or you have already been in Spain for five years. I looked at the Spanish version to see if there's a difference with the grammar, but it doesn't clarify it either:

http://extranjeros.empleo.gob.es/es...ificado_Residencia_comunitaria_imprimible.pdf

However, if you look at the rest of the options under permanent residency, they're all past tense, meaning a person has already been in Spain for that time. Based on that and supported by what CapnBilly is saying - that the law is that permanent residence can only be applied for after five years - then that 5-year option is not available to you, since you just got here. None of the other options are available to you either for permanent residency - right? Therefore you would only be able to apply for temporary residency.

Here is some other information on residency for UK citizens in Spain that you may find helpful (it doesn't go into doing the EX-18):

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/residency-requirements-in-spain


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

CapnBilly said:


> Once you have been legally resident in the country for 5 years, then under the directive you have the right of permanent residence. At this stage, if you wish, you can apply for a registration certificate which confirms your status, but there is no need to, as your right comes from the Directive (and Spanish law).
> 
> So, in the first instance, you can only ever apply for temporary residence.
> 
> There are some instances where you can acquire the right to permanent residence earlier, e.g if you have been resident for 3 years, and working for at least 1 year, and you retire because you have reached the age of retirement.


Perhaps I'm being pedantic but if it's only temporary, why does the form have a checkbox for permanent? 

Also, why does my 'residencia' that I got 9+ years ago, not say anything about 5 years, not have an expiry date nor say that it's temporary?


I'm told by our local extranjaria that applying for a new 'residencia' after 5 years achieves nothing as our new green sheet would be exactly the same as the one we have now.

I know some people who didn't mark the permanent checkbox have slightly different wording on their forms but this isn't true of many.

I too am now confused


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> Perhaps I'm being pedantic but if it's only temporary, why does the form have a checkbox for permanent?
> 
> Also, why does my 'residencia' that I got 9+ years ago, not say anything about 5 years, not have an expiry date nor say that it's temporary?
> 
> ...


When you go to apply for your 'permanent' one, you tick permanent. I believe that now, even if you tick 'permanent' & you haven't already been here 5 years, you get a cert which says 'temp' on it. You will only be given a 'permanente' if you have been here (& registered) for 5 years. 

I haven't bothered to get a 'permanente' one, for the reasons you gave - but I think I will..... just in case..... rules do have a habit of changing  

Mine doesn't say 'temp' nor 'perm', but when my daughter lost hers they said that she had to re-register with ridiculous financial requirements because she's no longer a minor. That isn't correct - she doesn't/didn't have to re-register according to their own guidelines - it was just a jobsworth who didn't know her job


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> Perhaps I'm being pedantic but if it's only temporary, why does the form have a checkbox for permanent?


For when you apply for permanent.



snikpoh said:


> Also, why does my 'residencia' that I got 9+ years ago, not say anything about 5 years, not have an expiry date nor say that it's temporary?


Because if you look at the top of the form, this form was created from a new law in 2007.

http://extranjeros.empleo.gob.es/es.../18-Certificado_Residencia_comunitaria_EN.pdf




snikpoh said:


> I'm told by our local extranjaria that applying for a new 'residencia' after 5 years achieves nothing as our new green sheet would be exactly the same as the one we have now.


That's what CapnBilly is saying - that it's automatic after 5 years.



snikpoh said:


> I know some people who didn't mark the permanent checkbox have slightly different wording on their forms but this isn't true of many.


Maybe they used an old form?



snikpoh said:


> I too am now confused


On the top of section 4, it asks for envisioned time in Spain, and the start date of your residency. So if you tick the wrong box, they will know it's wrong. So I think Alcalaina's advice is sound - to wait until the meeting. Maybe Charlie can post here so that others know in the future?


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Xabiachica, what's a jobsworth?


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

AllHeart said:


> For when you apply for permanent.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks - comments above. I can see that things have changed since we applied.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Thanks for your comments too, Snikpoh. This is what I was referring to, which I took to mean you don't need to reapply.



CapnBilly said:


> Once you have been legally resident in the country for 5 years, then under the directive you have the right of permanent residence. At this stage, if you wish, you can apply for a registration certificate which confirms your status, but there is no need to, as your right comes from the Directive (and Spanish law).


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## Swerve (Jun 29, 2011)

This is of no help but worth a look. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2wtbQUaC9mE


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

_*Jobsworth: * A low ranking official who follows their instructions and procedure to the letter. Often just to piss you off and to make them feel important. 

Term derives from the jobsworth mantra "I can't let you do that, it's more than my job's worth"._

From here: Urban Dictionary: Jobsworth

LOL! I never heard of that. Perfect!


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## CharlieMCFC (Jan 27, 2016)

Thanks again people! I appreciate everyone's input. I like AllHeart's logical dissection of the language in post #9 but agree with the feel of the thread that the best course of action is to take my forms with section 4 not filled in and ask for advice on the day. My appointment is next Wednesday. I'll post an update then.
Charlie


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

snikpoh said:


> .That's what CapnBilly is saying - that it's automatic after 5 years.
> 
> No he certainly didn't say that. You have to re-apply which is what he said. I actually think it is automatic but that's not what he said.


I think I said that you have to reapply if you want a new certificate, which will say "con carácter permanente", otherwise it's the same, as Snipoh was told. BUT, you do not need to reapply, as once you pass the 5 years, you are automatically entitled to reside permanently.

"Son titulares del derecho a residir con carácter permanente los ciudadanos de un Estado miembro de la Unión Europea o de un Estado parte en el Acuerdo sobre el Espacio Económico Europeo, y los miembros de la familia que no sean nacionales de uno de dichos Estados, que hayan residido legalmente en España durante un período continuado de cinco años. Este derecho no estará sujeto a las condiciones previstas en el capítulo III del presente real decreto.

A petición del interesado, la Oficina de Extranjeros de la provincia donde éste tenga su residencia o, en su defecto, la Comisaría de Policía correspondiente, expedirá, con la mayor brevedad posible y tras verificar la duración de la residencia, un certificado del derecho a residir con carácter permanente."

Until you reach the 5 years they are entitled to ask you to prove you still have the required resources, providing they have reason to suspect you don't. So for example, you may be below pension age and not renewed your medical insurance. (This is just as an example I am not saying they are checking it). They are not allowed to have a systematic process for checking resources, but of course some offices will.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

CharlieMCFC said:


> Thanks again people! I appreciate everyone's input. I like AllHeart's logical dissection of the language in post #9 but agree with the feel of the thread that the best course of action is to take my forms with section 4 not filled in and ask for advice on the day. My appointment is next Wednesday. I'll post an update then.
> Charlie


You're welcome, and thank you for your compliment. Gee-shucks!  I look forward to your answer. 

Could you please also find out the answer to the question coming up here: Does a person have to apply for permanent residency using this form, or is it automatic?


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

AllHeart said:


> Could you please also find out the answer to the question coming up here: Does a person have to apply for permanent residency using this form, or is it automatic?


I have just answered that question, again.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

CapnBilly said:


> I have just answered that question, again.


Yes, I just saw it. We were posting at the same time.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> You're welcome, and thank you for your compliment. Gee-shucks!  I look forward to your answer.
> 
> Could you please also find out the answer to the question coming up here: Does a person have to apply for permanent residency using this form, or is it automatic?


You're automatically 'permanent' after 5 years. If you want the 'permanent' cert/card at that point, you have to fill in the EX18 again & ask for it. But you're 'permanent' regardless.

The only reason I'm thinking of getting a 'permanent' one, is in case they change the rules. At least then I'd have something official in writing


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> You're automatically 'permanent' after 5 years. If you want the 'permanent' cert/card at that point, you have to fill in the EX18 again & ask for it. But you're 'permanent' regardless.


Yes, I see that from CapnBilly's post.



xabiachica said:


> The only reason I'm thinking of getting a 'permanent' one, is in case they change the rules. At least then I'd have something official in writing


And you'd have another notch in your belt for going through another bureaucratic process.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

AllHeart said:


> Yes, I see that from CapnBilly's post.
> 
> 
> 
> And you'd have another notch in your belt for going through another bureaucratic process.


I've been through just about every bureaucratic process now I think, except getting married & giving birth in Spain! 


I do need more notches in my belt though - but only to stop my jeans falling down after I bought smaller dinner plates


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## CharlieMCFC (Jan 27, 2016)

xabiachica said:


> You're automatically 'permanent' after 5 years. If you want the 'permanent' cert/card at that point, you have to fill in the EX18 again & ask for it. But you're 'permanent' regardless.
> 
> The only reason I'm thinking of getting a 'permanent' one, is in case they change the rules. At least then I'd have something official in writing


Indeed. One wonders what might happen if your residency is only temporary and the UK votes to pull out of the EU.


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## ExpatWannabee (Jul 6, 2011)

I wouldn't get too uptight about it. I went through the residencia process in Valencia about two years ago and, as long as you take the right documents, they're fairly laid back about it. If there's one or two questions that you're not sure how to answer, just leave them blank and when you arrive for your appointment, explain your circumstances and they'll tell you which box to check. They're really not out to get you, and indeed can be quite helpful.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

CharlieMCFC said:


> Indeed. One wonders what might happen if your residency is only temporary and the UK votes to pull out of the EU.


Precisely.....

but that's a whole other thread 

or several actually!


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> I've been through just about every bureaucratic process now I think, except getting married & giving birth in Spain!


Well, since it's a voluntary process, I think it should count as two notches! 



xabiachica said:


> I do need more notches in my belt though - but only to stop my jeans falling down after I bought smaller dinner plates


Congrats! I'm going in the opposite direction the last couple of months, despite eating less. I'm sooooo bummed out!  I see my doc in three weeks, and hope she can help me out.


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## CharlieMCFC (Jan 27, 2016)

OK I still don't know the answer to my question as my residency application didn't go through and I never got as far as asking about the boxes on the form. I got turned down because:
a) I need 3 months of Spanish bank statements - I only have 2
b) My health insurance documents are in English, they want them in Spanish. 
They were friendly and helpful, I just need to resolve those 2 issues and make another application (in a month's time, when I have the 3rd bank statement).


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