# Requirements for Brit expat resident in France moving to Spain.



## Leyka (3 mo ago)

I am in process of moving to Spain from France. I am a Brit with a valid carte de séjour. My question is, when applying for the TIE, does my Carte de Séjour automatically become invalid or do I need to carry out another process for this?

Thank you!


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Leyka said:


> I am in process of moving to Spain from France. I am a Brit with a valid carte de séjour. My question is, when applying for the TIE, does my Carte de Séjour automatically become invalid or do I need to carry out another process for this?
> 
> Thank you!


It becomes invalid and you have to follow the same process as though you didn't have it - that is, visas etc.


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## Leyka (3 mo ago)

Thanks. I was wondering because I have been told by Extranjería that I have to annul it and communicate it to the French authorities but I was never told of this throughout the process. They have told me that it is an EU policy. I am feeling very lost.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Leyka said:


> Thanks. I was wondering because I have been told by Extranjería that I have to annul it and communicate it to the French authorities but I was never told of this throughout the process. They have told me that it is an EU policy. I am feeling very lost.


You can only hold foreign residency in one country at a time. 

If you don't have an EU passport, you will need to secure a visa before moving to Spain.


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## Leyka (3 mo ago)

xabiaxica said:


> You can only hold foreign residency in one country at a time.
> 
> If you don't have an EU passport, you will need to secure a visa before moving to Spain.


Yes, I have done everything required for the visa and supposedly it´s been approved. However, it´s been when getting the TIE that I was told this.


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## Leyka (3 mo ago)

Obviously I don´t plan on holding two foreign residencies, I just want to know how to invalid the French carte de séjour so I can get the TIE.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Leyka said:


> Yes, I have done everything required for the visa and supposedly it´s been approved. However, it´s been when getting the TIE that I was told this.


Well done  

Yes, as said, the French card is now invalid. You ought to have informed the French authorities that you were giving up your residency there when you left.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Actually, you can only be resident in one place at a time ("hold residency") whether foreign or otherwise.

Residency is where you have your main home.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Leyka said:


> Obviously I don´t plan on holding two foreign residencies, I just want to know how to invalid the French carte de séjour so I can get the TIE.


You need to contact the issuing office, I imagine.


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

Leyka said:


> I have done everything required for the visa and *supposedly it´s been approved.* However, it´s been when getting the TIE that I was told this.


Procedurally you need visa in hand in order to apply for a TIE, is there something you're not telling us?



snikpoh said:


> Actually, you can only be resident in one place at a time ("hold residency") whether foreign or otherwise.
> 
> Residency is where you have your main home.


It's perfectly possible to be resident it two places, maybe more, however you can only be_ tax resident_ in one.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

xabiaxica said:


> You ought to have informed the French authorities that you were giving up your residency there when you left.


Actually, even if you did, I don't think they would have a clue what to do for you. The carte de residente becomes invalid once you have been resident outside France for more than a certain period of time (for a one year card, I think the period of time is something like 3, or maybe 6 months - at least if you have been absent from France for that period of time, they won't renew it).


MataMata said:


> It's perfectly possible to be resident it two places, maybe more, however you can only be_ tax resident_ in one.


Depends on the rules in the two or more places. But in my experience, you generally are only considered resident in one country at a time, but you can easily fall under the tax residency laws of more than one country. (Ask any US citizen - they are ALWAYS considered tax resident in the US of A no matter where they actually live and work.)


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

MataMata said:


> It's perfectly possible to be resident it two places, maybe more, however you can only be_ tax resident_ in one.


Simply incorrect. Look up the definition or residency - this definition is how it is applied in law.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Bevdeforges said:


> *Actually, even if you did, I don't think they would have a clue what to do for you.* The carte de residente becomes invalid once you have been resident outside France for more than a certain period of time (for a one year card, I think the period of time is something like 3, or maybe 6 months - at least if you have been absent from France for that period of time, they won't renew it).


That doesn't surprise me at all. Here in Spain, one os supposed to hand back the card when one leaves to live elsewhere, but I've heard of plenty of cases where people have been told by the govt worker that it isn't a requirement.


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

Bevdeforges said:


> Depends on the rules in the two or more places. But in my experience, you generally are only considered resident in one country at a time, but you can easily fall under the tax residency laws of more than one country. (Ask any US citizen - they are ALWAYS considered tax resident in the US of A no matter where they actually live and work.)


Yes, there is no universal definition of 'residency', it can vary from place to place.

Here is an interesting piece written a number of years ago I grant but relevant all the same and if nothing else amply demonstrates that for some residency can be a complex issue.

The rules on tax residency for France


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

MataMata said:


> Yes, there is no universal definition of 'residency', it can vary from place to place.
> 
> Here is an interesting piece written a number of years ago I grant but relevant all the same and if nothing else amply demonstrates that for some residency can be a complex issue.
> 
> The rules on tax residency for France


But that's really more about tax residency.

It does explain that (normal) residency is only in one place and is ultimately determined by "economic and vital interests"


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## Clairefarrimond (Jan 30, 2020)

It is not prohibited to hold two residence permits. You can for example be a permanent resident in one EU country and go to another country for up to two (in some cases five) years without giving up your permanent resident permit. You of course also need a temporary resident permit for the new destination. What you're not allowed to do is hold two permanent residence permits. MataMata is correct: you can be in legal resident status in more than one country; and, with some exceptions such as the USA, you cannot be tax resident in more than one country.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

What I find strange is that Extranjería here in Spain is requiring you to relinquish your French document. How do they know you haven't? Are they cross-checking data with the French authorities? As far as the Spanish are concerned you are a British citizen applying for residency in Spain. Where you lived prior to moving is surely irrelevant?

I would just make a new TIE appointment and not mention the French documents at all, if for some reason they ask you about them just say that you have surrendered them to the French authorities as per the requirement.


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## Leyka (3 mo ago)

Overandout said:


> What I find strange is that Extranjería here in Spain is requiring you to relinquish your French document. How do they know you haven't? Are they cross-checking data with the French authorities? As far as the Spanish are concerned you are a British citizen applying for residency in Spain. Where you lived prior to moving is surely irrelevant?
> 
> I would just make a new TIE appointment and not mention the French documents at all, if for some reason they ask you about them just say that you have surrendered them to the French authorities as per the requirement.


Yes, I thought of this but as the visa was done through the Spanish consulate in France they asked to see my French Carte de Séjour and after that added info in the system and I have no way of knowing what they wrote.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Ah, I hadn't thought about the visa process being in France....

In any case, I'd still be tempted to just go back and say that you have returned your carte de sejour and that you are no longer a resident of France. If the system still shows you as a resident it must be down to a bureaucratic delay!


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## Leyka (3 mo ago)

Hi there, I have been authorised a TIE but have been clearly told that I need to relinquish my carte de sejour and have stamped proof of this when I go to pick up the TIE at the police station in Madrid, if not they won´t give it to me. I have been to the French Consulate in Madrid to turn in the Carte de sejour but they say can´t accept it and that this has to be done at the Prefecture in France. I have called Prefecture but nobody picks up. Does anybody know if there is some way of doing this without having to go to France in person? Thanks so much!


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## Clairefarrimond (Jan 30, 2020)

This does not seem to be a lawful demand by the authorities. See article 15 and onwards of EUR-Lex - 32003L0109 - EN - EUR-Lex


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## dancingspider (Mar 4, 2018)

Clairefarrimond said:


> MataMata is correct: you can be in legal resident status in more than one country; and, with some exceptions such as the USA, you cannot be tax resident in more than one country.


With the David Beckham scheme you can be tax resident in Spain AND another country for several years.


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## dancingspider (Mar 4, 2018)

Overandout said:


> Ah, I hadn't thought about the visa process being in France....
> 
> In any case, I'd still be tempted to just go back and say that you have returned your carte de sejour and that you are no longer a resident of France. If the system still shows you as a resident it must be down to a bureaucratic delay!


This guy is suggesting you break the law. I would not take up such advice, on principle, but in addition if it subsequently is unearthed that you were not fully truthful in your application, it could become void. I thought there were rules on this forum against suggestions that prompt users of this forum to do things that were sailing too close to the wind.


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

Leyka said:


> Hi there, I have been authorised a TIE but have been clearly told that I need to relinquish my carte de sejour and have stamped proof of this when I go to pick up the TIE at the police station in Madrid, if not they won´t give it to me. I have been to the French Consulate in Madrid to turn in the Carte de sejour but they say can´t accept it and that this has to be done at the Prefecture in France. I have called Prefecture but nobody picks up. Does anybody know if there is some way of doing this without having to go to France in person? Thanks so much!


Sounds to me like someone in Madrid may be making it up as they go, having lived in France - as I did for over a decade - you'll be familiar with such antics by foncs at Prefectures!

If it is an invention what do do about is anyone's guess.

Could they perhaps be conflating a residency application with citizenship where you are supposed to renounce your previous citizenship?

We were very early adopters when the CdS was introduced (everybody told us we were mad but how we laughed when the system got totally overwhelmed with demand and instead of the 3 weeks it took us for some it was more like 9 months or more!!!). We still have our cards and nobody has so much as mentioned them.

I presume you will have a French driving licence so I'll be interested in how you go on with exchanging for Spanish if the fiasco is still playing out. The number 70 on your licence identifies it as having been exchanged for a UK one but because UK licences (currently) are not exchangeable for Spanish your French one will not be eligible for exchange.


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## Clairefarrimond (Jan 30, 2020)

Citizens’ rights


Citizens’ rights




commission.europa.eu





Scroll down to the document on "UK nationals and multiple immigration statuses".
You can have two permits.


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

I don't understand your use of the word 'permits' as the word does not appear in the document you link to. If you mean driving permits then that is not true. Even if you'd passed a test in each country that would not override the EU directive which clearly states that it is not permitted to hold more than one licence at a time.


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## Clairefarrimond (Jan 30, 2020)

dancingspider said:


> With the David Beckham scheme you can be tax resident in Spain AND another country for several years.





MataMata said:


> I don't understand your use of the word 'permits' as the word does not appear in the document you link to. If you mean driving permits then that is not true. Even if you'd passed a test in each country that would not override the EU directive which clearly states that it is not permitted to hold more than one licence at a time.


No, I mean residence permits. Isn't that what this thread is about?


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

So yes, you can hold two residencies at the same time however from the document linked to:

*"provided they meet the conditions attached to these statuses".*

Apart from any other local conditions in most instances that infers medical insurance and in the cases where that is being provided via an S1 that can only be used in one country at a time so while it might _theoretically_ be possible to chop and change residency at will in reality the bureaucracy involved would make such a plan totally unworkable therefore in the real world only one can be fully legitimate at a time.


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## tebo53 (Sep 18, 2014)

dancingspider said:


> This guy is suggesting you break the law. I would not take up such advice, on principle, but in addition if it subsequently is unearthed that you were not fully truthful in your application, it could become void. I thought there were rules on this forum against suggestions that prompt users of this forum to do things that were sailing too close to the wind.


Yes I was publicly chastised recently for a similar post on another forum 

Steve


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## 1kaipa (Jul 20, 2019)

The dual residency thing is a perennial topic here. If you look on various websites you will see people referring to different parts of legislation where wording saying you can have residency in different places at same time is highlighted and used to justify all sorts of interpretations. However the fact is as far as living in Spain goes: if you have Spanish residency then that is where you live and have your centre of financial affairs That is the principal tax base. You may have to make uk tax declaration for things like rent on uk properties but the same money must be declared in spain and then the relevant authorities will decide on double taxation issues.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I can't actually find anything in the LO 4/2000 which makes what I have suggested illegal, so I guess a public chastising may not be in order (yet).

I have however assumed that the accusation made is based on the same law that the OP is dependant on for the TIE application, but maybe I am wrong, maybe dancingspider could state exactly which article of which law the OP would be breaking?

If I have suggested someting against an applicable law I will certainly retract my post.


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