# Salaries based on Nationalities, when will it stop?



## RandomDude

Many have experienced it and witnessed it here.
Same person, same qualifications, same everything, if applying with one nationality would get different package if applied with another nationality.

We are no longer a society of people coming from outside. We already have generations from all nationalities, born, raised,educated and even married in the UAE.

Why would HR give X , 2 or 3 times what Y is getting, only because of their nationality? Both of them were born in the same country, raised in the same country, educated in the same country.

This is more evident in semi governmental companies. I know a couple, where the guy is working 12 hrs, got great position, international company, yet his wife, who was in a party college, got some random degree and does some silent in the background job, and gets 4 times the guy, because of her nationality.

Not to mention, that many of these big salary people are nothing exceptional.

The mentality of that you are getting 2000 dirham a month is a fortune back in your country, and for Y person 20,000 is nothing should stop. 
Because both people are living in the UAE, and both people endure the same living cost, house rent, schools.

This is why you read posts in this very forum of a guy moving from 2 Bed room apt to a 1 bedoroom, or moving from Dubai to Ajman, while others complaining that JLT is not posh enough for them.

Yeah, take it or leave it folks can spare us their opionion, you are entitled to say it, but, find something more productive.


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## twowheelsgood

So you want to complain about something you don't like but anyone who doesn't agree with you can stay quiet ?

There's one good reason for starters, why there is a difference between how nationalities are paid. Tolerance and ability to work with others is in reality, highly country specific, regardless of where you got your qualifications. Family upbringing and background has a real effect on how people behave. You may not recognise it, but in many ways, that may be proof in itself.

The second one of course, is that its what the client wants.


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## TallyHo

You can only bring experienced people from the West to Dubai on high salaries, otherwise they won't come. 

The UAE economy is multitiered. A western expat family is going to have much higher expenditures than a South Asian expat family (as a whole, that aside I'm certainly aware many South Asians have large packages and high expenditures). Schooling is a perfect example of the differences in the economy - the western international schools are much more expensive than the Indian or Arab schools. As the expectations and requirements are different among the various expat groups, the economy reflects that, which in turns continues to fuel the disparate package requirements by nationality. 

As long as there's a steady supply of expats from certain areas willing to come to the UAE on an X package and there's a steady demand for expats from other areas who will only come to the UAE on an Y package, you will always have income disparities by nationalities. 

By the way your example below is a bit odd. I'm wondering how such a couple got together to begin with. If he makes 10k that means she makes 40K and people don't make 40K for doing a "silent in the background job". If you want to make up a couple, you'd be better off describing him as someone who busted his ass for a managerial job at 20K and only makes the same as his wife who walked into a easy administration job at 20K. 



RandomDude said:


> I know a couple, where the guy is working 12 hrs, got great position, international company, yet his wife, who was in a party college, got some random degree and does some silent in the background job, and gets 4 times the guy, because of her nationality.
> 
> Not to mention, that many of these big salary people are nothing exceptional.
> 
> The mentality of that you are getting 2000 dirham a month is a fortune back in your country, and for Y person 20,000 is nothing should stop.
> Because both people are living in the UAE, and both people endure the same living cost, house rent, schools.
> 
> This is why you read posts in this very forum of a guy moving from 2 Bed room apt to a 1 bedoroom, or moving from Dubai to Ajman, while others complaining that JLT is not posh enough for them.
> 
> Yeah, take it or leave it folks can spare us their opionion, you are entitled to say it, but, find something more productive.


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## sm105

RandomDude said:


> Why would HR give X , 2 or 3 times what Y is getting, only because of their nationality?


I'm sorry, but the way you phrase this question illustrates exactly why this happens. HR doesn't "give" salaries to anyone. People earn those salaries by virtue of their qualifications, ability and bargaining power.

I hold an Indian passport but I make more than my American colleague in a similar role. Reason being that although I was initially offered a lower amount, I negotiated it up as a condition of accepting the role and then proved my value so I got another raise a few months later. 

Expecting that people will "give" you what you think you deserve is the exact reason why some nationalities will usually make less than others. Understand your value and don't sell yourself short.


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## Tropicana

TallyHo said:


> . Schooling is a perfect example of the differences in the economy - the western international schools are much more expensive than the Indian or Arab schools.


Western international schools cater to a large number of non western citizens as well.


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## TallyHo

True. The difference being that families from the West (regardless of their actual ethnic origins) feel that only certain schools are feasible options, whereas families from South Asia or other parts of the Middle East have access to a range of much cheaper schools. 

The other truth is that there are many people from all nationalities who are on large packages, not just the westerners. Affluent non-Gulf Arabs, Persians and South Asians actually outnumber the affluent westerners. Westerners are easy targets in the income disparity debate because you only see a relatively small range of them in the UAE. 



Tropicana said:


> Western international schools cater to a large number of non western citizens as well.


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## IzzyBella

I'm western and my package is zero dirhams.  *stirs pot moreeeee*


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## msbettyboopdxb

Meh. I've been here 8 years and I get paid based on my qualifications and experience and the value I bring to the table. If any company wants to base my renumeration and benefits on my passport, then I don't wanna work for their crappy company anyway.


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## Gavtek

Anyone can get a degree, you earn your money with proven international (from a UAE point of view) experience. 

If you have that and you're still getting paid for less than Johnny Englishman, you're working for the wrong company.


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## arabianhorse

IzzyBella said:


> I'm western and my package is zero dirhams.  *stirs pot moreeeee*


You,re overpaid! I'm jealous


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## arabianhorse

msbettyboopdxb said:


> Meh. I've been here 8 years and I get paid based on my qualifications and experience and the value I bring to the table. If any company wants to base my renumeration and benefits on my passport, then I don't wanna work for their crappy company anyway.


Those short short skirts you wear must be wortg at least 20k pm to your boss!


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## blazeaway

RandomDude said:


> Many have experienced it and witnessed it here. Same person, same qualifications, same everything, if applying with one nationality would get different package if applied with another nationality. We are no longer a society of people coming from outside. We already have generations from all nationalities, born, raised,educated and even married in the UAE. Why would HR give X , 2 or 3 times what Y is getting, only because of their nationality? Both of them were born in the same country, raised in the same country, educated in the same country. This is more evident in semi governmental companies. I know a couple, where the guy is working 12 hrs, got great position, international company, yet his wife, who was in a party college, got some random degree and does some silent in the background job, and gets 4 times the guy, because of her nationality. Not to mention, that many of these big salary people are nothing exceptional. The mentality of that you are getting 2000 dirham a month is a fortune back in your country, and for Y person 20,000 is nothing should stop. Because both people are living in the UAE, and both people endure the same living cost, house rent, schools. This is why you read posts in this very forum of a guy moving from 2 Bed room apt to a 1 bedoroom, or moving from Dubai to Ajman, while others complaining that JLT is not posh enough for them. Yeah, take it or leave it folks can spare us their opionion, you are entitled to say it, but, find something more productive.


Don't necessarily disagree re equality but same qualifications is difficult even from the same country degrees are not of the same value - there are blue chip units and poor unis


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## AJ-Brightonbythesea

blazeaway said:


> Don't necessarily disagree re equality but same qualifications is difficult even from the same country degrees are not of the same value - there are blue chip units and poor unis


Hi
The UK conservative government (coalition..) is presently trying to justify why most of them went to Eton \ school together... I'm guessing its easier to work with people you know ? Just a thought...


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## plckid

I was underpaid as well. My colleague was doing the same job as mine in the company. He was an Arab(not Local). He got three times more salary than me. .Everyone in the company everybody knew I was much better than my colleague. My boss requested for a rasie for me but I got nothing.. It is so funny when people tell westerners/arabs get paid more than asians because the live lavishly , you pay me more and see how I spend my life.


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## Safwanish

I understand why few westerners in this thread want to justify why they are being paid more OR should be paid more. You can say it's that the 'X' person is more qualified to do the job. While this can definitely be true. What i can't inherently stand is the 'double' standard in hiring process specially within UAE which somehow majorly considers westerners always more suitable for the job or simply believe they deserve a higher salary package.

This might not always be the case. But we as a Dubai society have to recognize that this issue exists. It's not right but it happens. I don't know what we can do to stop this or even if we are able to entirely eliminate the hiring bias within UAE. The only thing what we can do right now. Is man up to it and admit that it happens. Quite often actually.

I'm so glad I bailed on job thing entirely.


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## twowheelsgood

Safwanish said:


> What i can't inherently stand is the 'double' standard in hiring process specially within UAE which somehow majorly considers westerners always more suitable for the job or simply believe they deserve a higher salary package.


Not everyone said that.

You come from Pakistan, I come from the UK. Even if we went to the same university and did the exact same degree and got the same qualifications on the same course, that does not make us the same. The way we were brought up heavily influences out entire approach to work. I deal with all GCC country nationals and there are plenty I simply could not see working in our company as their cultural norm is either too deferential, too aggressive, too rude, too insular etc.

You were brought up in one culture and society with certain norms, I was brought up in a different culture. We both apply to the same place and whomever gets the job has to fit in with that culture. Its sometimes known as 'alignment' and as anyone in business will tell you, alignment of all staff working in an office is very important. Its no good if everyone in the office works together except one person. But thats not the only factor.

You then have to consider culturally determined traits. For example, some of my colleagues from India and Pakistan are probably very good technically, but are simply unable to function in a high profile, self-motivated role in our company - they are too deferential to authority and will not move outside of the pack to drive change. We have a lot of architects in our business and none of them are from outside western Europe as they would simply be too conservative to do business. they might function extremely well in a role where they align well with culture but that culture isn't here.

I am not saying that this is universally true but to suggest that the factors you outline are the only things that matter in selecting people is naive. Western companies hire westerners because they want western attitudes to work, aligned staff and western approach to initiative and you rarely get the same degree of alignment from people from other regions. Again, that isn;t saying that people from other cultures are 'wrong' but just that they won't match the others in the team.

You only have to visit other regions in the near and Far East to see that westerners don't get a look in, in many companies because in those cultures, we are not aligned and don't fit in. thats why when you get eastern dominated/owned companies, you don't get many Westerners working there.


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## JonGard

Twowheelsgood..... you speak far too much sense there


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## sm105

twowheelsgood said:


> You come from Pakistan, I come from the UK. Even if we went to the same university and did the exact same degree and got the same qualifications on the same course, that does not make us the same. The way we were brought up heavily influences out entire approach to work.


Very true, but your passport does not always determine your attitude and approach to work. I know plenty of people who hold Western passports but still retain their South Asian approach to work. And vice-versa. My passport is Indian, but I was raised in India, England and Australia, went to university in the USA and Canada and have worked everywhere from New Zealand to South Africa to Ghana to China to Somalia. My approach to work is a mix of influences from all of the above. If a company wants to stereotype my skills and value on the basis of my ethnicity, passport or any factor other than my actual ability and experience, that would not be a company that I would care to work for. Quietly accepting the first offer that the HR department "gives" you whether you find it suitable or not indicates that you don't actually value yourself as much as you think you do. If you don't value yourself, why on earth would a third party?


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## TallyHo

There are a lot of people in Dubai whose families originally came from Pakistan or India but they were brought up in the West and received their initial education and training in the West. Or they're from affluent families in those countries and were sent to the West for their education and initial career training. Or they rose through the ranks of a major multinational's offices in their home countries and are familiar with the western corporate expectations. 

When they are recruited to come to the UAE they are treated similarly to their western counterparts. It's because they know how to perform their jobs to the western standards that their companies expect. It's not a question of the hiring manager only looking at the names and passports and ignoring the qualifications, experience and education sources. Not at all. 





Safwanish said:


> I understand why few westerners in this thread want to justify why they are being paid more OR should be paid more. You can say it's that the 'X' person is more qualified to do the job. While this can definitely be true. What i can't inherently stand is the 'double' standard in hiring process specially within UAE which somehow majorly considers westerners always more suitable for the job or simply believe they deserve a higher salary package.
> 
> This might not always be the case. But we as a Dubai society have to recognize that this issue exists. It's not right but it happens. I don't know what we can do to stop this or even if we are able to entirely eliminate the hiring bias within UAE. The only thing what we can do right now. Is man up to it and admit that it happens. Quite often actually.
> 
> I'm so glad I bailed on job thing entirely.


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## sm105

TallyHo said:


> It's not a question of the hiring manager only looking at the names and passports and ignoring the qualifications, experience and education sources. Not at all.


To be fair, I do know of situations where this is the case. A friend of mine was a dual citizen of Ghana and the UK when he applied for a job in Dubai. The hiring manager offered him a certain salary, assuming he was Ghanaian. At some point during their negotiations, the fact that he also had a British passport came up. He immediately got a 50% increase on the base salary, plus a much higher set of allowances. He rejected the job in the end, partly out of principle and concern that the company didn't really look out for the true value of their employees. Of course, not everyone has that luxury and not every company has that kind of approach, but it definitely does exist.


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## JonGard

sm105 said:


> He rejected the job in the end, *partly out of principle*


Sure.


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## Tropicana

TallyHo said:


> *It's not a question of the hiring manager only looking at the names and passports and ignoring the qualifications, *experience and education sources. Not at all.


As someone who somewhat falls under what you described in your first para, I have to say the bold bit is right, but only for _some_ companies, including, luckily, the one I work for.

There are a huge number of companies, including multinationals which treat candidates primarily on the basis of their "nationality", and are more than happy to bar anyone not from the preferred place of origin.


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## twowheelsgood

Tropicana said:


> There are a huge number of companies, including multinationals which treat candidates primarily on the basis of their "nationality", and are more than happy to bar anyone not from the preferred place of origin.


Correct and sometimes (frequently) this can be for reasons of client expectations.

For example, being Egyptian and trying to get a job in KSA can be fraught with difficulty, or Palestinians in Kuwait. Politics does influence decisions. Not everyone is equal.

End clients often have their preferences and dislikes, like it or not and no company is going to waste time trying to employ someone the end clients doesn't like when there are dozens of people with equal or better aspects.


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## arabianhorse

JonGard said:


> Sure.


Don't judge everyone by your standards.


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## arabianhorse

No matter how one tries to justify it, its wrong.

A job in an organisation with the existing responsib ilities and pre requisite qualifications should have one pay scale.
Its the job that demands the salary not the country of origin of the individual.

So all thiis b/s about custom, attitudes, etc etc is just that - b/s

The inter view panel decides who is best fit for the job based on experience, qualifications and psychological make up.


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## twowheelsgood

arabianhorse said:


> The inter view panel decides who is best fit for the job based on experience, qualifications and psychological make up.


And whether you like it or not, one factor in psychological make up is nationality and upbringing. We have an expression in the Uk that you can take the girl out of Essex, but you cannot take the Essex out of the girl - and that can be applied universally.

If you believe a single or even two generations in a foreign country changes upbringing after centuries of the original homeland influence, then you are sadly mistaken.

All other things being equal, you are right that nationality should not matter, but as no two people are ever equal and we live in a real world, then those are the rules. 

We know you're a good chap(ess) but at the end of the day you're descended from criminals so we wouldn't hire you, regardless of your qualifications  :hug:


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## JonGard

We all know nationality shouldn't matter, but I think we all know that, especially in Dubai, it does.


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## Safwanish

TallyHo said:


> There are a lot of people in Dubai whose families originally came from Pakistan or India but they were brought up in the West and received their initial education and training in the West. Or they're from affluent families in those countries and were sent to the West for their education and initial career training. Or they rose through the ranks of a major multinational's offices in their home countries and are familiar with the western corporate expectations.
> 
> When they are recruited to come to the UAE they are treated similarly to their western counterparts. It's because they know how to perform their jobs to the western standards that their companies expect. It's not a question of the hiring manager only looking at the names and passports and ignoring the qualifications, experience and education sources. Not at all.


You do make a very very fair point. As much as I hate to admit, I do get what you mean. Innovation in terms of western culture being brought to Dubai needs people who understand and have primarily lived under those settings.

At the end of the day, it's just good business. That's all.


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## CHFIII

At the end of the day your boss and employer have goals to achieve. If they need you to achieve them you get paid more, if I can replace you for a lower cost or lower risk option of equivalent value then you lose.

You can change your value or their perception of your value once you get in the door. 

Frankly, if someone told me they did not want more money once I realized they had academic and business training from the UK and raised the offer then I wouldn't want them. I value British experience very highly because I've worked with a lot of Brits in international business and my impression is that white, black, brown or green the business culture there turns out a high value product. 

How do Americans fare in Dubai as far as value perception assuming they have the requisite soft skills to be respectful and humble?


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## Simey

CHFIII said:


> How do Americans fare in Dubai as far as value perception assuming they have the requisite soft skills to be respectful and humble?


Who are you talking about? 

A senior lawyer or engineer with a degree from one of the best universities in the world recruited to give up a high paying job in the US to move 7000 miles to a somewhat inconvenient country where he will still have to pay taxes but will now have to enroll his kids in a private school; or

A 19 year old backpacking college dropout looking for an adventure in a non-western multicultural country that is safe so that her family back home in Idaho won't freak out too much; or

An American passport holder who has never lived in the US or may have lived in the US but also may have lived in many other places other than the US. 

I've seen all three here (and lots of other variations and combinations of backgrounds and circumstances). It's very hard to generalize and it isn't as simple as the eagle on the passport.


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## CHFIII

Simey said:


> Who are you talking about?
> 
> A senior lawyer or engineer with a degree from one of the best universities in the world recruited to give up a high paying job in the US to move 7000 miles to a somewhat inconvenient country where he will still have to pay taxes but will now have to enroll his kids in a private school; or
> 
> A 19 year old backpacking college dropout looking for an adventure in a non-western multicultural country that is safe so that her family back home in Idaho won't freak out too much; or
> 
> An American passport holder who has never lived in the US or may have lived in the US but also may have lived in many other places other than the US.
> 
> I've seen all three here (and lots of other variations and combinations of backgrounds and circumstances). It's very hard to generalize and it isn't as simple as the eagle on the passport.


Indeed.

An American who has a master's in computer science, 20 years experience and the last 4 at a Director level in a consultancy with a fair amount of global business experience but not much in the Gulf region whose managed a P&L, built organizations and when working with clients in a billable capacity is billed out as a Sr. Strategist. Focused on Risk, Compliance and Information Security with a deep understanding of enterprise IT strategy.

Thinking it might be nice to hang up the consulting life after 2 million miles and take on a Sr Director or VP level role in a large company or a CISO, CIO or CTO type role in a smaller one. No longer 'technical' and spend most of my time in MS Office now architecting strategies for clients or teams, service lines or organizational infrastructure internally. I'm tired of working 16-20 hours per day 7 days per week and would like to cut back to 'only' 60 hours each week, build/expand/plan/run an organization and get a bit more balance in my life. Done the 'Big 4' thing, built a practice from zero, ready for some new challenges. Current comp around $200K USD. Sr. guy, reasonably bright, very driven and get high marks for bringing disparate groups together to solve complex problems. 

...and an Eagle on the passport ;-) Sorry not to give the requisite context, the above should rectify that if your mind reading abilities don't quite extend 8000 miles. Sorry about that.


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## Simey

CHFIII said:


> Indeed.
> 
> An American who has a master's in computer science, 20 years experience and the last 4 at a Director level in a consultancy with a fair amount of global business experience but not much in the Gulf region whose managed a P&L, built organizations and when working with clients in a billable capacity is billed out as a Sr. Strategist. Focused on Risk, Compliance and Information Security with a deep understanding of enterprise IT strategy.
> 
> Thinking it might be nice to hang up the consulting life after 2 million miles and take on a Sr Director or VP level role in a large company or a CISO, CIO or CTO type role in a smaller one. No longer 'technical' and spend most of my time in MS Office now architecting strategies for clients or teams, service lines or organizational infrastructure internally. I'm tired of working 16-20 hours per day 7 days per week and would like to cut back to 'only' 60 hours each week, build/expand/plan/run an organization and get a bit more balance in my life. Done the 'Big 4' thing, built a practice from zero, ready for some new challenges. Current comp around $200K USD. Sr. guy, reasonably bright, very driven and get high marks for bringing disparate groups together to solve complex problems.
> 
> ...and an Eagle on the passport ;-) Sorry not to give the requisite context, the above should rectify that if your mind reading abilities don't quite extend 8000 miles. Sorry about that.


I'm not in your industry so I can't comment about salary specifically. But I would say that you fall into the first category I mentioned. Actually, most Americans I run into here do, although quite a lot also fall into the third category. 

Any employer willing to look at you will most likely be assuming that you will ask for an expat package and that you won't be willing to relocate unless you are made whole. That will include an understanding that as an American you are taxed worldwide and the tax exclusions such as they are won't make as much difference for you as they would for someone with a lower AGI. 

The bottom line is that you will be expensive to hire. And you probably should be.

By the way, if you are from a state with an income tax or one that makes it difficult to break residency, now is the time to establish residency somewhere that does not.


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## CHFIII

Simey said:


> .
> 
> By the way, if you are from a state with an income tax or one that makes it difficult to break residency, now is the time to establish residency somewhere that does not.


Fortunately, I'm in Texas. Every few years someone suggests a state income tax but of course they are immediately shot or deported to a foreign nation like New York or California for falling to respect the local cultural values ;-). 

I'm trying to figure out how to structure a package to maximize the tax advantages of a move to Dubai and I suppose I will have to find a way to explain to our treasury folks that I can't walk the streets of Dubai with their hand in my pocket as that sort of thing is immodest and frowned upon.


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## Simey

CHFIII said:


> Fortunately, I'm in Texas. Every few years someone suggests a state income tax but of course they are immediately shot or deported to a foreign nation like New York or California for falling to respect the local cultural values ;-).
> 
> I'm trying to figure out how to structure a package to maximize the tax advantages of a move to Dubai and I suppose I will have to find a way to explain to our treasury folks that I can't walk the streets of Dubai with their hand in my pocket as that sort of thing is immodest and frowned upon.


If you are in a high bracket the tax advantages aren't as great as all that. It's all below the line and Uncle Sam has a way of very publicly giving with one hand and quietly taking with another. In my case this last year I just got the numbers and it took my tax bill down by a little less than 20%. My unreimbursed expenses from the move basically ate up the tax benefit.

It's hard to convince treasurers of this of course because all they think of is the theoretical upside, not at all about the very real but hidden downside, but the reality is Congress basically passed the exemption to offset the cost of living overseas, not to allow expats to live the good life.

If you are living in Texas you will find Dubai expensive (although you won't miss your Texas property taxes). The cost of living in Dubai is roughly what I experienced in the Washington, DC area. Good luck!


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## Fat Bhoy Tim

"Nationality" sometimes (inadvertently) refers to communication and cultural skills & styles. When you are genuinely paying for this it won't stop, nor should it, as it's a bigger issue in whether a someone is a good fit for an organisation, rather just pure technical skills.


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## arabianhorse

Fat Bhoy Tim said:


> "Nationality" sometimes (inadvertently) refers to communication and cultural skills & styles. When you are genuinely paying for this it won't stop, nor should it, as it's a bigger issue in whether a someone is a good fit for an organisation, rather just pure technical skills.


I can never understand a Scotsman. So if I hired one, I'd pay him peanuts


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## Fat Bhoy Tim

arabianhorse said:


> I can never understand a Scotsman. So if I hired one, I'd pay him peanuts


Alls the easier to insult you, grandma. 

I least we don't talk pish


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## arabianhorse

Fat Bhoy Tim said:


> Alls the easier to insult you, grandma.
> 
> I least we don't talk pish


hahahahha - better that trying to justify racism with silly statements like "communication" skills

If that is what is required for the job, it should be specified as a key selection criteria and the right candidate paid the salary range for that job, irrespective of their country of origin.

Try that nonsense in any developed country and be prepared to be taken to court on grounds of discrimination.


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## twowheelsgood

arabianhorse said:


> Try that nonsense in any developed country and be prepared to be taken to court on grounds of discrimination.


Ever occurred to you that one of the many reasons that Dubai is successful is that they don't put up with the nonsense that alegedly developed countries require ?

You'll find that employment contracts, tenancy contracts and many aspect of UAE law were developed on the back of UK laws, except they took out the bull**** designed to keep lawyers in a job 

Seriously though, if someone cannot speak the required language to the required level, then they shouldn't get the job - end of. In Europe they would be up for disciminating against people from other cultures whose diversity should be maintained and the employer should be adjusting their entire business so the employee can speak Serbo-Croat without fear of ridicule of harrassment.

If I cannot understand someone speaking English, then they won't be a good fit in this company.


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## Fat Bhoy Tim

arabianhorse said:


> hahahahha - better that trying to justify racism with silly statements like "communication" skills
> 
> If that is what is required for the job, it should be specified as a key selection criteria and the right candidate paid the salary range for that job, irrespective of their country of origin.
> 
> Try that nonsense in any developed country and be prepared to be taken to court on grounds of discrimination.


I'm in an industry that is relationship driven even if the work we do is technical, if you don't possess strong communication skills (passive and active) you won't get anywhere with clients. Ergo, you won't get anywhere internally either. We have people in their late 20s and early 30s in senior roles, we have people in their 40s in junior roles - mainly on the back of what they're capable of managing. 

One senior executive in his early 30s is Indian, one mid-level analyst in his 40s is British. There's no racism involved here, it's all merit based and communication skills is a large part of it. The fact you're unable to grasp this is part of the problem, you're one of the morons ranting about "racism" and "nationality" without actually asking yourself, _"who's the best candidate?"_


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## CHFIII

Lol. I stopped looking so hard at resumes and went to asking to see sanitized work deliverables - I don't care where someone is from if they can construct good written materials and present them effectively ;-)

....and that standard tends to favor some groups and exclude others. Selfish, not racist - got sick of redoing things,


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## Arunbalats

twowheelsgood said:


> Ever occurred to you that one of the many reasons that Dubai is successful is that they don't put up with the nonsense that alegedly developed countries require ? You'll find that employment contracts, tenancy contracts and many aspect of UAE law were developed on the back of UK laws, except they took out the bull**** designed to keep lawyers in a job  Seriously though, if someone cannot speak the required language to the required level, then they shouldn't get the job - end of. In Europe they would be up for disciminating against people from other cultures whose diversity should be maintained and the employer should be adjusting their entire business so the employee can speak Serbo-Croat without fear of ridicule of harrassment. If I cannot understand someone speaking English, then they won't be a good fit in this company.


What about the non white folk who speak perfectly good English? And all those who write and read better than em? 

Also the UAE law is a mix of legal systems from all over the world, not just English law. And FYI it's a civil law jurisdiction, not a common law jurisdiction like the ol empire. 

Lawyers are some of the highest paid expats in Dubai. 

Discrimination exists everywhere. Those who are saying there ain't one is either getting highly paid and doesn't care or he/ she doesn't have the brains to see what's what. 

Required language? How many of us here speak Arabic fluently? Last time I checked, that was the official language. 

The thing about work culture and work environment is true. But in most cases in UAE, low salaries of the non white employees offset the high salaries of the white employees. Both have the same targets and same skill sets. Except that one is western qualified and somehow better than the non western qualified employee. 
What would you call that? 
Although the facts remains that non western qualified expats are willing to move here on salaries lower than western qualified expats. This drives down the demand and keeps the salaries low for em. 
Simple economics of demand and supply with a mindset that has become institutionalized all over the world. 
Even in India, expats(the very few that we have) are paid ridiculously big salaries)
If you don't like what you are getting, make it known and find a job that pays according to your skill sets. 
Not everyone is willing to take that risk. Mediocrity is a norm, and a intrinsic part of humankind.


----------



## QOFE

As long as masses from Asia come here to work accepting tiny salaries the discrimination will continue. 
Please also remember that that there is discrimination against westerners too. There are so many job adverts around where they advertise for Indian/Filipino only.
When people continue to come to work for 2,000-3,000 DHS a month for jobs that should pay 10,000+ this discrimination will continue.


----------



## twowheelsgood

Some really good points in there and the problem with the entire subject is its too general a subject to do anything except make broad, often incorrect assumptions. Its the Guardian newpapers 'yeah but what about........' response to everything (Its exactly what I am doing now) 



Arunbalats said:


> What about the non white folk who speak perfectly good English? And all those who write and read better than em?


Fair point, but do you belive that is representative of the whole ? You don't generally get many English people here who cannot speak reasonably good English, can you say the same for other nationalities ?



Arunbalats said:


> Discrimination exists everywhere. Those who are saying there ain't one is either getting highly paid and doesn't care or he/ she doesn't have the brains to see what's what.


Of course, you are right but the point is that in many cases, people are not equal. People are individuals and none of us see ourselves as others see us. As the original Op tried to say, why is it that when people are from the same this that and other, that there is bias.? The answer is that the entire postulation is incorrect - no two people are ever truly alike. Culture and upbringing, societal norms and business fit are all relevant factors which many refuse to accept. They see this as discrimination - others see it differently.



Arunbalats said:


> Required language? How many of us here speak Arabic fluently? Last time I checked, that was the official language.


So ?

If none of us speak it then its down to the seond language issue. Clients, the majority of whom are native Arabic speakers are very likely to have English as a second language and like it or not, anyone with a strong accent isn;'t going to get on. It doesn't matter whether that is Punjabi, Scouse or Geordie. Not many strong Uk acepnts around here I think, for the same reason.



Arunbalats said:


> But in most cases in UAE, low salaries of the non white employees offset the high salaries of the white employees.


I am not sure how this is relevant to your argument ?



Arunbalats said:


> Both have the same targets and same skill sets. Except that one is western qualified and somehow better than the non western qualified employee. What would you call that?


You see inherent equality of individuals, and I don't. The nonwestern person, irrespective of educational qualifications, will generally come from a different culture, a different upbringing, a different attitude to work just about everything is different. Sometimes this works in a persons favour, but sometimes it does not. 

Take for example a person for whom culturally, saying no, is frowned upon (you can guess which nationalities here). You wouldnt hire them as a Health & safety person as they would never be prepared to make the hard decisions and go into conflict - regardles of their educational qualifications. They don't get the job - its not discrimination but is clearly a poor fit with the culture required. I have sat in a room full of a certain nationality, had them agreeing to everything, and after the meeting find nothing was actually agreed by them because they didn't have the guts to say no and tell me I was wrong.

Its a very general statement but people do get paid what they are worth - I do agree that if everything else were equal, the salaries should not be different, but as two people from different cultures are NEVER going to be equal, its a moot point.


----------



## Fat Bhoy Tim

twowheelsgood said:


> I have sat in a room full of a certain nationality, had them agreeing to everything, and after the meeting find nothing was actually agreed by them because they didn't have the guts to say no and tell me I was wrong.


You just described a 6-week project that turned into 9-months, although it was as much them as it was us.


----------



## Gweeney

twowheelsgood said:


> Take for example a person for whom culturally, saying no, is frowned upon (you can guess which nationalities here). You wouldnt hire them as a Health & safety person as they would never be prepared to make the hard decisions and go into conflict - regardles of their educational qualifications. They don't get the job - its not discrimination but is clearly a poor fit with the culture required. I have sat in a room full of a certain nationality, had them agreeing to everything, and after the meeting find nothing was actually agreed by them because they didn't have the guts to say no and tell me I was wrong.


I agree with much of your point and that the subject is overly generalized. However, it is an individual who is being hired and should be looked upon based on his individual merits and not on generalizations.



twowheelsgood said:


> Its a very general statement but people do get paid what they are worth - I do agree that if everything else were equal, the salaries should not be different, but as two people from different cultures are NEVER going to be equal, its a moot point.


Indeed, all things being equal, salary should not be different. The examples of salary disparity posted here come from the corporate world. To post a different example, what say you of a british dog walker in a sheik's household being paid AED10,000 and an asian nanny in the same household being paid half as much? True, the two are not equal. One is western, the other, not. One takes care of the dog, the other, of the children. Is the dog more valuable then than the children?


----------



## Fat Bhoy Tim

Gweeney said:


> Indeed, all things being equal, salary should not be different. The examples of salary disparity posted here come from the corporate world. To post a different example, what say you of a british dog walker in a sheik's household being paid AED10,000 and an asian nanny in the same household being paid half as much? True, the two are not equal. One is western, the other, not. One takes care of the dog, the other, of the children. Is the dog more valuable then than the children?


Be realistic, a company will not overpay for someone if they ask for something well under what they were expecting to pay. 

Most organisations will have a broad band grading system, with enormous overlaps. If a person asks for "X" and you're happy to pay it, you do - and only more when it situations where the grading/banding requires it. That will rarely if ever happen.

The point remains, if people are willing to accept less - they'll get paid it. Western expats aren't paid more because of their nationality, they're paid more because they the vast majority of them will just laugh at an offer that deserves to be laughed at. The employers don't pay them stonking great packets because they want to, they pay them because they need to - otherwise they won't get the person in the door. :attention:


----------



## rsinner

Based on my experience of a number of Indians I know here - people who have studied from good colleges and/or have a good work experience are in well paid positions here. A lot of people who are earning peanuts are the ones who would have had relatively low paying jobs back home as well.


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## Arunbalats

All true. Then only point I am trying to make is that there is a disparity. And the factor that drives this is the colour of the passport, although this factor has many reason contributing to it. 
What I don't understand is the thought process that accepts this mode of thinking. Being blind a fact is acceptable. Vociferously denying it is a whole another thing.


----------



## Byja

twowheelsgood said:


> Ever occurred to you that one of the many reasons that Dubai is successful is that they don't put up with the nonsense that alegedly developed countries require ?
> ...
> Seriously though, if someone cannot speak the required language to the required level, then they shouldn't get the job - end of. In Europe they would be up for disciminating against people from other cultures whose diversity should be maintained and the employer should be adjusting their entire business so the employee can speak Serbo-Croat without fear of ridicule of harrassment.


Nope, they're successful cause they have qualified people for the job, whether they're speaking English, Serbo-Croat, or any other language.

Whereas, in Europe...


----------



## Arunbalats

rsinner said:


> Based on my experience of a number of Indians I know here - people who have studied from good colleges and/or have a good work experience are in well paid positions here. A lot of people who are earning peanuts are the ones who would have had relatively low paying jobs back home as well.


A large percent of those who move out of india are those who aren't able to find a job back home. The competition there is unimaginably fierce, and people choose dubai as an easier option. 

We have very good colleges in India, IIT's, IIM's NLS's and a whole lot of other colleges that cater to companies and firms from all over the world, and they pay big money. But there are also thousands of other colleges which cater to a less affluent and less competent group.


----------



## arabianhorse

Fat Bhoy Tim said:


> I'm in an industry that is relationship driven even if the work we do is technical, if you don't possess strong communication skills (passive and active) you won't get anywhere with clients. Ergo, you won't get anywhere internally either. We have people in their late 20s and early 30s in senior roles, we have people in their 40s in junior roles - mainly on the back of what they're capable of managing.
> 
> One senior executive in his early 30s is Indian, one mid-level analyst in his 40s is British. There's no racism involved here, it's all merit based and communication skills is a large part of it. The fact you're unable to grasp this is part of the problem, you're one of the morons ranting about "racism" and "nationality" without actually asking yourself, _"who's the best candidate?"_


hahaha - thanks for the fantastic demonstration of your "communication skills" mate.

Is being rude your idea of great communications? You may get away with it with your domestic help, but don't try it on here.

If you removed your blinkers and had a look at what I said, you'd see that I'm all for merit based recruitment and salaries, not nationality based salaries.

So don't confuse the issue.

jeez - talk about getting one's knickers in a knot


----------



## Gweeney

Fat Bhoy Tim said:


> Be realistic, a company will not overpay for someone if they ask for something well under what they were expecting to pay.
> 
> Most organisations will have a broad band grading system, with enormous overlaps. If a person asks for "X" and you're happy to pay it, you do - and only more when it situations where the grading/banding requires it. That will rarely if ever happen.
> 
> The point remains, if people are willing to accept less - they'll get paid it. Western expats aren't paid more because of their nationality, they're paid more because they the vast majority of them will just laugh at an offer that deserves to be laughed at. The employers don't pay them stonking great packets because they want to, they pay them because they need to - otherwise they won't get the person in the door. :attention:


You are describing a western style company with corresponding salary brackets. I do agree with you, why indeed pay more if a person is willing to accept less if it falls within the same scale. Assuming of course that the company would also be willing to pay the individual if he asks for something near the top of the scale regardless of his nationality. This is the part where i tell you to be the one to be realistic. Most companies are not willing to pay however qualified the person is. And that is the reality life in the UAE; salaries are, for the most part, based on nationality no matter how some expats try to deny it. I speak from personal experience. My wife is asian born, raised and educated. Though she has worked in the west, and I laugh at the salary offers she receives, she would never get the same salary as mine because she would be laughed at if she asks. And she is much more qualified than I am. And that is the same reason these nationalities
are willing to accept low wages. Because they are aware of these realities. And the example I mentioned earlier, the one about the nanny, it is real. She tried to ask for a raise after four years of service citing the disparity between her and the dog walker. The request was denied citing as reason that she is asian and the other is western.


----------



## Fat Bhoy Tim

arabianhorse said:


> hahaha - thanks for the fantastic demonstration of your "communication skills" mate.
> 
> Is being rude your idea of great communications? You may get away with it with your domestic help, but don't try it on here.
> 
> If you removed your blinkers and had a look at what I said, you'd see that I'm all for merit based recruitment and salaries, not nationality based salaries.
> 
> So don't confuse the issue.
> 
> jeez - talk about getting one's knickers in a knot



When someone gives you grief without any context, they get a kicking back. My tone (or lack thereof) is pretty much irrelevant in this context; what is important is that I'm concise, clearly understood and to the point. 

Case in point about grief - you're doing it again in your comment about 'domestic help'. I don't really have any, I sometimes get a maid in once every 2/3 months, treat them as humans and given them a 20-25% tip as the agency ones get paid rubbish.

If you removed your blinkers you'd see that's exactly what I described, and clearly demonstrated that nationality is irrelevant. That you're as oblivious to this as you are to the other things people highlight doesn't really surprise me.

Complaints about nationality are generally in the vein of, "i'm qualified, and they hired someone else", or "i'm qualified, and they paid them more". Both are heavily contextual. Wind your neck in and pay attention, this time to qualitative arguments and not quantitative ones involving mathematics and accounting.


----------



## Fat Bhoy Tim

Gweeney said:


> You are describing a western style company with corresponding salary brackets. I do agree with you, why indeed pay more if a person is willing to accept less if it falls within the same scale. Assuming of course that the company would also be willing to pay the individual if he asks for something near the top of the scale regardless of his nationality. This is the part where i tell you to be the one to be realistic. Most companies are not willing to pay however qualified the person is. And that is the reality life in the UAE; salaries are, for the most part, based on nationality no matter how some expats try to deny it. I speak from personal experience. My wife is asian born, raised and educated. Though she has worked in the west, and I laugh at the salary offers she receives, she would never get the same salary as mine because she would be laughed at if she asks. And she is much more qualified than I am. And that is the same reason these nationalities
> are willing to accept low wages. Because they are aware of these realities. And the example I mentioned earlier, the one about the nanny, it is real. She tried to ask for a raise after four years of service citing the disparity between her and the dog walker. The request was denied citing as reason that she is asian and the other is western.


It's six of one and half a dozen of the other really, your wife's case certainly isn't unknown.

I'm a westerner paid about 2/3 of what my role is really worth, but I accept it because I like where I work. I could jump ship for another job, knowing full well that whilst you're in employment (particularly with a competitor) your market value is at it's greatest. 

If you/she can afford it, she should vote with her feet and take something better. At the very least, an offer in your pocket is worth a hell of a lot. Should I decide that I'm starting to be seriously underpaid I can pull out one of the many offers I get, but you can pretty much only do it once every 3-5 years.


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## arabianhorse

Fat Bhoy Tim said:


> When someone gives you grief without and context, they get a kicking back. My tone (or lack thereof) is pretty much irrelevant in this context; what is important is that I'm concise, clearly understood and to the point.
> 
> Case in point about grief - you're doing it again in your comment about 'domestic help'. I don't really have any, I sometimes get a maid in once every 2/3 months, treat them as humans and given them a 20-25% tip as the agency ones get paid rubbish.
> 
> If you removed your blinkers you'd see that's exactly what I described, and clearly demonstrated that nationality is irrelevant. That you're as oblivious to this as you are to the other things people highlight doesn't really surprise me.
> 
> Complaints about nationality are generally in the vein of, "i'm qualified, and they hired someone else", or "i'm qualified, and they paid them more". Both are heavily contextual. Wind your neck in and pay attention, this time to qualitative arguments and not quantitative ones involving mathematics and accounting.


whatever dude ! you sound like a truculent teenager. I'm done


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## Fat Bhoy Tim

arabianhorse said:


> whatever dude ! you sound like a truculent teenager. I'm done


Well wasn't that grown up. :drama:

Don't forget to hand in your thesaurus on the way out.


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## QOFE

Fat Bhoy Tim said:


> Well wasn't that grown up. :drama:
> 
> Don't forget to hand in your thesaurus on the way out.


And the abacus...


----------



## Arunbalats

Jeez. Quiet down people! 
Either we talk with sense or not at all. Why can't people talk nice? 😳


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## arabianhorse

QOFE said:


> And the abacus...


Now that's really hurt !


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## mo87

From a business owner point of view why should I pay for a group of people 3x more than what they are welling to accept to begin with?


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## Tropicana

Arunbalats said:


> We have very good colleges in India, IIT's, IIM's NLS's and a whole lot of other colleges that cater to companies and firms from all over the world, and they pay big money. But there are also thousands of other colleges which cater to a less affluent and less competent group.


In quite a few companies, an Indian from IIT and an Indian from an REC will be considered the same as they are both "Indians". 
That all people from one country are not the same and do not have the same lifestyle is beyond their mental horizon. 

The better companies of course will discriminate in favor of the IIT grad.


----------



## arabianhorse

mo87 said:


> From a business owner point of view why should I pay for a group of people 3x more than what they are welling to accept to begin with?


Finally a refreshingly honest comment.
No b/s about communication/upbringing/ser vitude/deference from baseborn wannbies.


----------



## Gavtek

Tropicana said:


> In quite a few companies, an Indian from IIT and an Indian from an REC will be considered the same as they are both "Indians".
> That all people from one country are not the same and do not have the same lifestyle is beyond their mental horizon.


And in a large number of cases, the person making this judgement will also be Indian.


----------



## Mr Rossi

mo87 said:


> From a business owner point of view why should I pay for a group of people 3x more than what they are welling to accept to begin with?


Pay peanuts and you get monkeys


----------



## CHFIII

It's unfortunate for the vast majority of Indian IT contractors but here in the US there are a few who make life harder for the rest. Two examples of why: it is quite common to hire someone who does not mention that they have a 4-6 week trip home planned and ticketed when they take a contract but they don't mention it until the last minute. It is mentioned usually as a dying relative and they will only be gone two weeks. I've personally had this happen on projects I have managed at least six times where I caught the person in a lie - either flights were booked long in advance or they knew that they had some visa issue that would require them to stay longer or they plastered a day by day account of their holiday on Facebook.

Then there is the issue when the guy you interview is not who shows up or résumé experience is "shared". The funniest one I ever had was a guy who listed what he did in a project I had run and had done the hiring for. The guy who actually did the work didn't mention he'd abandoned the project for a planned vacation right before go-live and the guy who borrowed the role description for his résumé was nailing every question in the phone interview when I finally called on the first gent by name and asked him to say hi to everyone. Both seemed to think it was funny.

Is this typical? No of course not. Does it create a huge perception issue for other Indian IT workers? Of course it does. Some very dear friends from India explained how these and other items work and how to prevent them. We all have preconceptions and some are based on experience rather than pure bias. No doubt the assumptions an American runs into about being arrogant and rude did not come about by accident or pure bias either.


----------



## Kawasutra

mo87 said:


> From a business owner point of view why should I pay for a group of people 3x more than what they are welling to accept to begin with?


And at the end, supply and demand determine the price...


----------



## twowheelsgood

I do find it interesting to see continuous umbrage over 'discrimination issues' from someone who professes to be an Australian.

Pot, kettle black and a touch of hypocrisy there I think.

PS wtf is a 'baseborn wannabie' ? Is that Australian speak for 'someone who disagrees with me ?'


----------



## elshad82

Hi guys,

I am from Baku, Azerbaijan. I am planning to move to Dubai in autumn.
For now I'm improving my English and preparing to IELTS.

Actually it's normal when western employer prefers western employee. He will hire Asian employee, but for less salary. Somebody will say, that it's not fair. But you know - there is no fair in business.

We have a lot western expats in Baku. And they get much more than local specialist. They usually hold management positions.
There is no any uncommon in their abilities. Even local specialists on same position much more qualified and experienced, and more familiar with local work specificity.

But, it's normal. It would be weird if John Doe passed thousands of kilometers and got the same salary as local guy.
The other question - why companies hire western expats for more salary, if local specialists are more familiar with job. Bosses of those companies are western people. And I think you should be a manager to understand some things that don't make a sense for most of people.

Just pretend, if you had a company, whom would you hire with the same technical abilities: your nationality guy or other nationality guy? There is no understandings as "nationalism" and "racism" for professional businessman.


----------



## Fat Bhoy Tim

arabianhorse said:


> Finally a refreshingly honest comment.
> No b/s about communication/upbringing/ser vitude/deference from baseborn wannbies.


You mean the same comment I made, but you had a problem with?


----------



## Simey

Everyone is ignoring the real reason Indians are paid less than other nationalities: its revenge for all the times we have bumped into them when walking the other way in corridors, on sidewalks and around corners. 

The universal rule is in a country that drives on the right and you meet someone coming the other way, you step to the right. Not the left!! :frusty:


----------



## Fat Bhoy Tim

Simey said:


> Everyone is ignoring the real reason Indians are paid less than other nationalities: its revenge for all the times we have bumped into them when walking the other way in corridors, on sidewalks and around corners.
> 
> The universal rule is in a country that drives on the right and you meet someone coming the other way, you step to the right. Not the left!! :frusty:


Even on the escalators in the UK, if you're standing still you move to the right :lol:


----------



## TallyHo

Just noticed a job advert. 

Western female only. Must be between 30-40. Salary offered is 8K.


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## elshad82

And how does it affect when HR or department manager is Indian?


----------



## CHFIII

It's a little ironic to see our poor brethren from India stereotyped into a single bucket when India is probably the most diverse country I'm aware of.

In the US there are a lot of technology people who say that cheap Indian labor came in and 'stole' their jobs - something I've always found ridiculous. It wasn't 'their' job, it was a demand someone else was willing to fill at a lower cost for comparable quality.

Sadly the work ethic that made the US into a superpower seems to have descended into a sense of entitlement. We have one group left in this country who seems to understand that there is unlimited opportunity to succeed to the limits of your talent and effort regardless of your starting point - they are called 'immigrants'. 

...a few of us have learned to laugh at ourselves though so perhaps there is hope ;-)


----------



## IzzyBella

TallyHo said:


> Just noticed a job advert. Western female only. Must be between 30-40. Salary offered is 8K.


If you find any 20-30 let me knows. Oh. And a little better pay.


----------



## mdabubacker

CHFIII said:


> It's a little ironic to see our poor brethren from India stereotyped into a single bucket when India is probably the most diverse country I'm aware of.
> 
> In the US there are a lot of technology people who say that cheap Indian labor came in and 'stole' their jobs - something I've always found ridiculous. It wasn't 'their' job, it was a demand someone else was willing to fill at a lower cost for comparable quality.
> 
> Sadly the work ethic that made the US into a superpower seems to have descended into a sense of entitlement. We have one group left in this country who seems to understand that there is unlimited opportunity to succeed to the limits of your talent and effort regardless of your starting point - they are called 'immigrants'.
> 
> ...a few of us have learned to laugh at ourselves though so perhaps there is hope ;-)


Spot on @CHFIII

My two cents, Been there and have experienced it first hand. Anyone who thinks Indian labor is cheap at-least on the technology jobs are honestly mistaken. Awareness is pretty low on how much an average Indian IT professional makes in India itself, it is pretty decent and in comparable terms. How am i saying this, I am an Indian Citizen, have a PR in the states moved there about 13 years back and been in the Industry for a very long time and operate with a variety of offshore vendors on a day to day basis not just from India but also China and eastern Europe.

Just count the number of immigrants of Indian origin who holds an executive position in the firms based out of the states, that will hit the notion that my job is stolen by an low paid Indian immigrant out of the park. I am not denying the fact that cheap labor is available from both India & China however what you get is what you pay for , which applies to the workforce hired from the local market as well and not just from India.


----------



## CHFIII

LOL - MDA....

So sometimes I slip when I am whiteboarding out a solution for a client and I use my own shorthand for the resources needed to construct and deploy it.

Had one recently where the client got curious and asked about my hieroglyphics.

"What's A2 FT?" ...Oh sorry two architect level guys, 1 technical one functional
"OK that makes sense... what's 12M?" ...Oops. that's twelve junior analysts"
"Hmmm.. Ok so now I am lost, how does M stand for Jr. Analyst?" ....Minions.

Minions come in many sizes, colors, nationalities. So do A2 FT.


----------



## Canuck_Sens

twowheelsgood said:


> ......
> 
> You come from Pakistan, I come from the UK. Even if we went to the same university and did the exact same degree and got the same qualifications on the same course, that does not make us the same. The way we were brought up heavily influences out entire approach to work. I deal with all GCC country nationals and there are plenty I simply could not see working in our company as their cultural norm is either too deferential, too aggressive, too rude, too insular etc.
> 
> You were brought up in one culture and society with certain norms, I was brought up in a different culture. We both apply to the same place and whomever gets the job has to fit in with that culture. Its sometimes known as 'alignment' and as anyone in business will tell you, alignment of all staff working in an office is very important. Its no good if everyone in the office works together except one person. But thats not the only factor.


When you said that the way people are brought up will interfere with pre-judged perceptions due to cultural traits you lost me. 

Although I concur that traits affect your ability to function in an occupation, those who really have international experience by working in different foreign companies *adapt* culturally. You don't bar people because of your prejudice that a certain nationality will have that behavior for a particular job. How do you know ? There are tests to gauge this by the way. I concur that we are led to believe and class sometimes nationalities which is tremendously wrong. 

If they are good you groom them. A responsible company would do that. As with anybody, people have different personalities and some cannot be groomed. 

So no, I cannot concur with a view that being brought up in a different culture set disqualifies you to function automatically in a given position.


----------



## arabianhorse

Canuck_Sens said:


> When you said that the way people are brought up will interfere with pre-judged perceptions due to cultural traits you lost me.
> 
> Although I concur that traits affect your ability to function in an occupation, those who really have international experience by working in different foreign companies *adapt* culturally. You don't bar people because of your prejudice that a certain nationality will have that behavior for a particular job. How do you know ? There are tests to gauge this by the way. I concur that we are led to believe and class sometimes nationalities which is tremendously wrong.
> 
> If they are good you groom them. A responsible company would do that. As with anybody, people have different personalities and some cannot be groomed.
> 
> So no, I cannot concur with a view that being brought up in a different culture set disqualifies you to function automatically in a given position.


I wouldn't waste time trying to reason with people who have deep seated prejudices, or who are generally "up themselves".


----------



## Canada Dry

It may feel unfair, but trust me, the current system is very fair if you look at it in depth. Take 2 candidates for a senior engineering position, one from lets say Germany and another from lets say Sri Lanka. Would you really want to hire the candidate from the country with no actual inventions over an engineer from the country that gave us so many engineering achievements ?
There are other soft skills issues. Most westerners, and I mean actual westerners and not passport holders from the third world have a stronger work ethic, are less likely to be corrupt, and make better managers. 

The issue of salary difference also makes sense when you consider the fact that the 3rd world is far far cheaper than the West. You can buy many acres of land in India for the amount that will fetch you a small apartment in New York or London. 
There are so many drivers and other staff in the UAE who have built large homes for themselves in India with a salary of 2000 dhs.
If you pay an Indian and an American the same salary, you will be acting unfair towards the American as living costs in his own country is many times higher than India. There is also the lifestyle issue. Many Asians do not tend to eat out, study at cheaper schools, and have lower living expenses than the average westerner. 
Of course all this may not apply to all, but still 90% of people do share traits with their countrymen, Sorry to come across so bluntly but I felt the need to be honest on a topic that is misrepresented too often by people when in reality the prevailing salary levels are perfectly fair.


----------



## sm105

Canada Dry said:


> If you pay an Indian and an American the same salary, you will be acting unfair towards the American as living costs in his own country is many times higher than India.


If you are paying anyone a salary based upon the living costs in a place other than where they are actually working, well I think that's part of your problem. 

You pay someone based upon what value they bring to your organisation, regardless of what their passport says. The point that many have made (and that I agree with to a large extent) is that people with a Western outlook tend to bring better value and productivity to the Middle Eastern business environment, so they are hence able to command better compensation packages.

I'm Indian and I make more than many Americans in my organisation because I bring better value than they do. I'm fortunate that my CEO sees things from that perspective and not the cost-of-living-in-home-country deal (especially since I haven't actually lived in India for almost 20 years!).


----------



## rsinner

Canada Dry said:


> Would you really want to hire the candidate from the country with no actual inventions over an engineer from the country that gave us so many engineering achievements ?
> .........


Totally agree with you. Also I am planning to go to my HR and ask them to hire only Egyptians for civil projects given that they built the pyramids, which is one of the greatest technical achievements of all times. 

Next in line would be Germans given Einstein was from the same country - I am sure all Germans must be as smart as him. 

Also, all engineers in the airlines should be North Koreans given their history of building rockets and firing them in the general direction of the sea. :thumb: Honourable mention to the Chinese for having built all those rockets in the Middle Ages. 

Anyways, I have refrained from posting on this thread in general because there is no way this topic can be discussed without people generalising about things they have no idea of (or may have a good idea of while ranting about colleagues during brunches). 

This thread is better off in the Sandpit or being closed.

PS: I would probably need to go to my boss and ask for a 95% pay cut as the cost of living BACK HOME for my colleagues is higher ... oh wait ...


----------



## CHFIII

Canada Dry said:


> .
> If you pay an Indian and an American the same salary, you will be acting unfair towards the American as living costs in his own country is many times higher than India. There is also the lifestyle issue. Many Asians do not tend to eat out, study at cheaper schools, and have lower living expenses than the average westerner.
> Of course all this may not apply to all, but still 90% of people do share traits with their countrymen, Sorry to come across so bluntly but I felt the need to be honest on a topic that is misrepresented too often by people when in reality the prevailing salary levels are perfectly fair.


What has fairness got to do with anything? How do companies measure this exactly in their annual report? While your rationale would tend to favor me I just don't get the premise.

If I go up against an Indian for the same position the employer doesn't care what is fair to me or the other guy. The employer makes a judgment on what skills and traits have what value to the company and the hiring manager works a value equation that basically says this guy costs A and offers a value of B, that guy costs X and I perceive his value to be Y and then he looks at budget and his targets and decides.

That isn't to say that an employer won't be biased, humans are biased.

But by your reasoning I should command a higher salary than a candidate who is virtually identical to me in every way because my beloved bride loves Vuitton and Prada and the other guy's wife likes sneakers and sweats and would never dream if dropping $2k in a handbag.

Don't get me wrong, I wish this worked in reality because I'd double my salary in an instant but in what reality does 'fair' enter into the process? No offense my friend, but methinks you have never managed a P&L. I hire $250/hr labor onshore and $12/hr labor offshore in Hyderabad and I don't consider anything other than getting maximum value for my resource budget because my EOY bonus targets are based on net GP in $$$ and in %. I have never met a colleague whose targets were based on what's fair to the employee in terms of my perception of his or her desired lifestyle. I offer the exact dollar amount I expect the person to accept and so does every other hiring manager who has to operate in the world that is, not a hypothetical one where salaries are based on what lifestyle a person wants but if you find that world let me know because my perceived need for a nicer boat or a Bentley would change in a heartbeat!

Meanwhile, whether in Dubai, India or the US the only question an employer considers about a candidate they want is "what can we get them for?".


----------



## CHFIII

rsinner said:


> Totally agree with you. Also I am planning to go to my HR and ask them to hire only Egyptians for civil projects given that they built the pyramids, which is one of the greatest technical achievements of all times.
> 
> Next in line would be Germans given Einstein was from the same country - I am sure all Germans must be as smart as him.
> .
> 
> PS: I would probably need to go to my boss and ask for a 95% pay cut as the cost of living BACK HOME for my colleagues is higher ... oh wait ...


I'll wager a "fair" wage that rsinner doesn't cost $12/hr and from one forum post I can tell that he'd cost me the same amount as any American with the same resume but I'd probably extend the offer to him because hes funnier than most and a dry sense of humor like that tells me without hearing him or meeting him that he has no "communication issues" and would be a fit for my team.


----------



## Mr Rossi

Excellent first post 

- A person's skill set is based on the heritage of their country of birth.

- "Actual" westerners are harder working and more honest

- It's more than they earn in their home countries.

Only 9/10 though, you missed out

- If you don't like it, leave.


----------



## mdabubacker

Canada Dry said:


> There are other soft skills issues. Most westerners, and I mean actual westerners and not passport holders from the third world have a stronger work ethic, are less likely to be corrupt, and make better managers.


I guess, Going by the flag you are from a western country and you hold an western passport. A basic trait for being a better manager is to be politically correct at all times no matter what the situation is... and based on what you said above in a public forum the statement itself becomes contradictory ain't it?



Canada Dry said:


> The issue of salary difference also makes sense when you consider the fact that the 3rd world is far far cheaper than the West. You can buy many acres of land in India for the amount that will fetch you a small apartment in New York or London.
> There are so many drivers and other staff in the UAE who have built large homes for themselves in India with a salary of 2000 dhs.


When was the last time you visited India? To be fair on my fellow peeps from the subcontinent, if you are talking about a small apartment in London / New York compare it with a small apartment in Bangalore / Mumbai, check for yourself what the price is through a simple google search. Based on your statement made above if the western expat holding a western passport is from middle of the Nevada desert he could as well build a lavish home there just by getting a salary of 2000 dhs.

I agree with @rsinner that it is high time this thread gets moved to sandpit or closed.


----------



## CHFIII

mdabubacker said:


> .
> 
> I agree with @rsinner that it is high time this thread gets moved to sandpit or closed.


I dunno, I think you, rsinner and 105 have done a pretty good job of establishing a new stereotype that goes something like "Indians sure can obliterate a poor argument by using sneaky and unfair (cough) tricks like logic, reason and business acumen". 

Nothing like watching the uninformed and misguided get hammered by the informed who've been derided.

Nice group butt kicking guys. Lol.


----------



## Arunbalats

rsinner said:


> Totally agree with you. Also I am planning to go to my HR and ask them to hire only Egyptians for civil projects given that they built the pyramids, which is one of the greatest technical achievements of all times. Next in line would be Germans given Einstein was from the same country - I am sure all Germans must be as smart as him.  Also, all engineers in the airlines should be North Koreans given their history of building rockets and firing them in the general direction of the sea. :thumb: Honourable mention to the Chinese for having built all those rockets in the Middle Ages. Anyways, I have refrained from posting on this thread in general because there is no way this topic can be discussed without people generalising about things they have no idea of (or may have a good idea of while ranting about colleagues during brunches). This thread is better off in the Sandpit or being closed. PS: I would probably need to go to my boss and ask for a 95% pay cut as the cost of living BACK HOME for my colleagues is higher ... oh wait ...


*applause*


----------



## Arunbalats

Canada Dry said:


> It may feel unfair, but trust me, the current system is very fair if you look at it in depth. Take 2 candidates for a senior engineering position, one from lets say Germany and another from lets say Sri Lanka. Would you really want to hire the candidate from the country with no actual inventions over an engineer from the country that gave us so many engineering achievements ? There are other soft skills issues. Most westerners, and I mean actual westerners and not passport holders from the third world have a stronger work ethic, are less likely to be corrupt, and make better managers. The issue of salary difference also makes sense when you consider the fact that the 3rd world is far far cheaper than the West. You can buy many acres of land in India for the amount that will fetch you a small apartment in New York or London. There are so many drivers and other staff in the UAE who have built large homes for themselves in India with a salary of 2000 dhs. If you pay an Indian and an American the same salary, you will be acting unfair towards the American as living costs in his own country is many times higher than India. There is also the lifestyle issue. Many Asians do not tend to eat out, study at cheaper schools, and have lower living expenses than the average westerner. Of course all this may not apply to all, but still 90% of people do share traits with their countrymen, Sorry to come across so bluntly but I felt the need to be honest on a topic that is misrepresented too often by people when in reality the prevailing salary levels are perfectly fair.


Is this really the logic that you are basing you argument on? By your logic, non white folk don't deserve to send their kids to good schools, not eat out. All they are supposed to do is to work and work until they drop dead?
And corruption? The trait is not dependent on your ethnicity, it is dependent on a persons greed. I don't even want to comment more on this. Your post stinks of a racist logic. And in this day and age, there are 7 billion odd other people apart from you, who aren't likely to be racist. I will take my chances with those folks!


----------



## zatapa

I have only been here for six months now. When I arrived, I was surprised to see so many Indians and Filipinos in Dubai. But it makes perfect sense: they speak English and are affordable. Like China, the success of UAE is built on cheap labour. Like it or not, it is what it is. If we would decide to pay Indian construction workers the same as European construction workers, there is a sizeable chance that Indians would not get the jobs anymore. 
Also, I was in sales for five years in the Netherlands. I have never seen any corruption there. I have been here fir six months and have had numerous Indian purchasing managers asking me for presents such as ipads or for 10% commission, to be paid to him personally. When i found out about the business ethics, i decided that our company needed a better spread of cultures. 
Needless to mention that good people receive salary increases and bad ones don't, regardless of their origin.


----------



## zatapa

By the way, this is an excellent discussion because it refers to issues that we all see around us but we don't discuss them very often. We may not agree, but at least it enables everyone to see how other people interpret the situation.


----------



## mdabubacker

zatapa said:


> I have only been here for six months now. When I arrived, I was surprised to see so many Indians and Filipinos in Dubai. But it makes perfect sense: they speak English and are affordable. Like China, the success of UAE is built on cheap labour. Like it or not, it is what it is. If we would decide to pay Indian construction workers the same as European construction workers, there is a sizeable chance that Indians would not get the jobs anymore.
> Also, I was in sales for five years in the Netherlands. I have never seen any corruption there. I have been here fir six months and have had numerous Indian purchasing managers asking me for presents such as ipads or for 10% commission, to be paid to him personally. When i found out about the business ethics, i decided that our company needed a better spread of cultures.
> Needless to mention that good people receive salary increases and bad ones don't, regardless of their origin.


@Zatapa, With all due respect you are missing the context of the thread itself. My understanding is that this thread's context is specific to the difference in market salary IN UAE based on the nationality and is no way related to asking one to pay the Indian construction worker European wages. 

Secondly, You stated that the numerous purchase managers you came across while you were here for the past 6 months asking you for a present or a commission. You are very well true that things like that do exist but stereotyping and entire race based on your limited experience is uncalled for.If the practice of corruption is only among Indians i am surprised as to why every multinational working out in western geographies have to define a policy for anti-corruption in that market?


----------



## zatapa

Corruption is everywhere, we all know that. But corruption sure happens an awful lot more in certain countries than in others. I know because I am half Dutch, half Indonesian. The things I have come across in Indonesia I have never ever experienced in the Netherlands. The Dutch are generally trustworthy people. Indonesia is still in such a mess largely because of corruption. Don't get me wrong - it is my second home and i love the country and its people, but there is no way we can assume Dutch and Indonesians to be equal. 
I have been to India a number of times as well. Not a place where i would allow my wife to walk outside alone at night. Does that mean I am racist? No. It may be built on stereotypes or on what we read in the papers about crime, but hey, welcome to the real world. 
There is a reason why some countries are a mess and others aren't, though we are not allowed to talk about it.


----------



## sm105

zatapa said:


> I have been here fir six months and have had numerous Indian purchasing managers asking me for presents such as ipads or for 10% commission, to be paid to him personally. The Dutch are generally trustworthy people.


Some years ago I was in charge of awarding a sizeable contract in the UK for a previous employer. It shocked me to see the number of vendors (Anglo, Irish, British Indian, Polish) who offered me some sort of personal incentive to swing things their way. The Indians did it most openly (and least tactfully) but the others were just as persistent and had exactly the same motives.

One of the slimiest purchasing people I've ever come across was actually Dutch. He had been living in sub-Saharan Africa for years and made his money doing shady deals by over-invoicing African Government procurement contracts from European vendors, and kicking money back to the bureaucrats/ministers involved. Let's not paint all Dutchmen with the angelic brush.

There are dodgy characters (and incompetent, brilliant, average, etc..) in every single country and of every single ethnicity.


----------



## mdabubacker

zatapa said:


> Corruption is everywhere, we all know that. But corruption sure happens an awful lot more in certain countries than in others. I know because I am half Dutch, half Indonesian. The things I have come across in Indonesia I have never ever experienced in the Netherlands. The Dutch are generally trustworthy people. Indonesia is still in such a mess largely because of corruption. Don't get me wrong - it is my second home and i love the country and its people, but there is no way we can assume Dutch and Indonesians to be equal.
> I have been to India a number of times as well. Not a place where i would allow my wife to walk outside alone at night. Does that mean I am racist? No. It may be built on stereotypes or on what we read in the papers about crime, but hey, welcome to the real world.
> There is a reason why some countries are a mess and others aren't, though we are not allowed to talk about it.


Fair point agree to the statements tranparency internationals corruption index tells which country stands where, but my entire point was to keep this in context to what we are discussing here " Salaries Based on Nationality". Are you saying that Indians are paid less because of the corruption rampant in the society in general?


----------



## arabianhorse

CHFIII said:


> I dunno, I think you, rsinner and 105 have done a pretty good job of establishing a new stereotype that goes something like "Indians sure can obliterate a poor argument by using sneaky and unfair (cough) tricks like logic, reason and business acumen".
> 
> Nothing like watching the uninformed and misguided get hammered by the informed who've been derided.
> 
> Nice group butt kicking guys. Lol.


LOL

And how the hell did you guys become so articulate. surely you did not write that stuff - you're supposed to have "inferior" communication skills and only agree with everything anyone says.
that is your lot in life due to your education system, customs and upbringing.
i smell a rat - perhaps a ghost writer ?


----------



## msbettyboopdxb

rsinner said:


> Totally agree with you. Also I am planning to go to my HR and ask them to hire only Egyptians for civil projects given that they built the pyramids, which is one of the greatest technical achievements of all times. Next in line would be Germans given Einstein was from the same country - I am sure all Germans must be as smart as him.  Also, all engineers in the airlines should be North Koreans given their history of building rockets and firing them in the general direction of the sea. :thumb: Honourable mention to the Chinese for having built all those rockets in the Middle Ages. Anyways, I have refrained from posting on this thread in general because there is no way this topic can be discussed without people generalising about things they have no idea of (or may have a good idea of while ranting about colleagues during brunches). This thread is better off in the Sandpit or being closed. PS: I would probably need to go to my boss and ask for a 95% pay cut as the cost of living BACK HOME for my colleagues is higher ... oh wait ...


Sorry but lolllllllllllllll.


----------



## rsinner

arabianhorse said:


> LOL
> 
> And how the hell did you guys become so articulate. surely you did not write that stuff - you're supposed to have "inferior" communication skills and only agree with everything anyone says.
> that is your lot in life due to your education system, customs and upbringing.
> i smell a rat - perhaps a ghost writer ?


I did indeed. Just made sure that the ghost writer went to the western world no later than the early 1900s as the correct upbringing thing does not apply to people who immigrated more recently 

Again - this is a complicated topic. Number of arguments on the thread - and none of them probably completely correct or wrong. The problem is that we are trying to generalise *BILLIONS* of people here, which is never a good idea. For every person who is underpaid in Dubai due to his nationality, there is another one (western or non western) who gets more than what they deserve based on their skills, experience, qualifications etc. Describing the nature of the problem is like the story of the blind men trying to describe an elephant.

I just hope that when hiring managers decide to hire someone and decide on the pay, it is done based on what they see in the individual rather than some pre conceived notions. That is the whole reason there is a hiring process and interviews etc etc - to weed out people who wont fit in or wont be able to deliver .


----------



## mdabubacker

arabianhorse said:


> LOL
> i smell a rat - perhaps a ghost writer ?


Now wait, who let the secret out .


----------



## Camo1

I think it’s “horses for courses”, and in lot of instances it generally comes down to budget (Employee’s total cost to company), combined with skill set and culture that best suits the roll. Multi-national companies are governed by global policies and to go outside company policy constitutes compliance issue, you will find a lot of managers and HR will run a mile and not get involved. HR oversee managers recruitment and make sure managers adhere to policy. However, that been said there are managers out there who have preference around nationality (that’s human nature), if you work here long enough each individual manager know their budget and what to expect from different nationalities. 

Pay scales; So many factors affect levels of compensation. Pay Scales take multiple key variables into consideration - your level of experience, location, skill set, type of organisation and size of organisation, but as I said above cost to company would have to be main underlining factor. I not exactly sure why anyone is surprised by the difference in pay scales by nationalities in UAE, in western countries we have something similar called Male–female income disparity also known as gender wage gap. You know it’s there, it exists it’s real and not aligned, we deal with it and move on, but does it make it right? 
Sorry for the thread creep!!


----------



## zatapa

Why are people so obsessed with equality? We all want to be different but when there are disadvantages, then everyone suddenly wants to be considered equal. 

Usually it's the ones complaining that don't move up the ladder. Successful people don't complain, they take action.

People have a tendency to think that they are always better than their coworkers, but in reality other people may see it differently. There are no equal people, no equal cultures, no equal universities and no equal resumes. So don't compare your salary with people who earn more. There are always people who earn a lot less than you as well.


----------



## Sparki

I don't think salaries are based on nationalities at all, I think it's based on the individual education, skills and experience!

My cousin is a USA passport holder, fresh graduate, he came to Dubai looking for a job but unfortunately he got unsuitable offers eventually he went back to USA. 

in my opinion I think it'd be more fruitful for us to save our time investing in ourselves for the long run rather than wasting time looking at others income.

Regards


----------



## Byja

Sparki said:


> My cousin is a USA passport holder, *fresh graduate*


Somehow I think this is more important than the passport itself...


----------



## Sparki

Byja said:


> Somehow I think this is more important than the passport itself...


this is exactly what I'm trying to put across, the passport doesn't really matter.


----------



## blazeaway

Arunbalats said:


> *applause*


No mention Stonehenge


----------



## blazeaway

Arunbalats said:


> Is this really the logic that you are basing you argument on? By your logic, non white folk don't deserve to send their kids to good schools, not eat out. All they are supposed to do is to work and work until they drop dead? And corruption? The trait is not dependent on your ethnicity, it is dependent on a persons greed. I don't even want to comment more on this. Your post stinks of a racist logic. And in this day and age, there are 7 billion odd other people apart from you, who aren't likely to be racist. I will take my chances with those folks!


I transferred here from UK and agreed my deal on my UK package, no racism etc etc?


----------



## blazeaway

zatapa said:


> I have only been here for six months now. When I arrived, I was surprised to see so many Indians and Filipinos in Dubai. But it makes perfect sense: they speak English and are affordable. Like China, the success of UAE is built on cheap labour. Like it or not, it is what it is. If we would decide to pay Indian construction workers the same as European construction workers, there is a sizeable chance that Indians would not get the jobs anymore. Also, I was in sales for five years in the Netherlands. I have never seen any corruption there. I have been here fir six months and have had numerous Indian purchasing managers asking me for presents such as ipads or for 10% commission, to be paid to him personally. When i found out about the business ethics, i decided that our company needed a better spread of cultures. Needless to mention that good people receive salary increases and bad ones don't, regardless of their origin.


One thing surprised me here was labour cost, hiring Indian and Pakistan installation staff actually cost about the same as we paid in Europe. That is omn a M2 basis.

In UK we paid labour 4 or 5 times hourly rate in UAE but we used less than a fifth of the number of men in a team in UAE


----------



## Tropicana

Sparki said:


> this is exactly what I'm trying to put across, the passport doesn't really matter.


It definitely does in many cases. In your cousin's case, it did not, but that is like me saying that just because I did not face any crime in Dhaka or Delhi, it probably means the crime rate is very low in those cities, when it is otherwise

A passport can translate to:

1) Special allowances being offered vs not being offered at all

2) A higher salary, higher meaning anything from 20% more to 300% more

3) Far better accommodation from companies that offer direct housing; this is more true in Saudi Arabia than here. 


If you have the time (and patience) like I did when I did my job search, you can wait and wait till you get a reasonable job offer that does not look at your passport and offer you 3000 dhs (without even starting the interview), or suggest during the interview that because conditions are so bad in my "country", (where I never lived), that I should be ok with sharing a room with 4 or 6.


----------



## Tropicana

Sparki said:


> in my opinion I think it'd be more fruitful for us to save our time investing in ourselves for the long run rather than wasting time looking at others income.


Ideally we should not look at other's income, but that is possible only when you are judged primarily on your skills and experience. 

When you keep facing firms that use your passport as the first and main factor in deciding your compensation and give you far less than what you are worth, what others earn becomes an issue.


----------



## mdabubacker

Tropicana said:


> Ideally we should not look at other's income, but that is possible only when you are judged primarily on your skills and experience.
> 
> When you keep facing firms that use your passport as the first and main factor in deciding your compensation and give you far less than what you are worth, what others earn becomes an issue.


Well said.The problem specific to this market is not whining about what others are getting as few have indicated in the post but the hiring mentality itself in general.

This problem never shows up in bigger MNCs due to the fear of facing impending lawsuits but more in the smaller and local companies. To be fair on them that is what the market dictates viz quantity available in the market from eastern geographies. However reasoning with that and even going to the level of trying to put in arguements to make it ethical screams prejudice. 

To sum it up, in the corporate world what sells is not your upbringing or where you got your degree certificates from, but the experience you bring to the table for that unique position which is a fair game for everyone. This is generally gained through your work experience either in India or China or at the Western world.


----------



## mdabubacker

zatapa said:


> I have only been here for six months now. When I arrived, I was surprised to see so many Indians and Filipinos in Dubai. But it makes perfect sense: they speak English and are affordable. .


May I ask you why you were surprised on the first place. Their geography is closer to UAE than where you came from and their population is way higher than the population of entire Europe put together so makes perfect sense to me. That specific statement speaks volume about the deep seated opinion some people have about Indians or Chinese in general.

Oh secondly Indians speak better english than Dutch anytime anywhere both written and verbal. Thanks to the Brits that is one great thing they left as a legacy for Indians to built upon.


----------



## Tropicana

mdabubacker said:


> However reasoning with that and even going to the level of trying to put in arguements to make it ethical screams prejudice.


Whenever there is an unfair situation, be it something on a grand and serious scale like apartheid or on a much smaller and benign scale like quota/affirmative action/nationality discrimination, there will always be some people who benefit from the situation putting in arguments on how the status quo is great and why the others deserve the short end of the stick. Hardly surprising.

What gives me hope though is that in Dubai, the more successful a company is, the less they tend to discriminate (the best places tend to have a diverse mix of people in upper management), and the largest cases of bias are invariably in the smaller companies


----------



## JonGard

blazeaway said:


> In UK we paid labour 4 or 5 times hourly rate in UAE but we used less than a fifth of the number of men in a team in UAE


My first place in hospitality over here was the same. I had a crew of 18 who were paid buttons but were useles..

If I'd had competent staff I could've done it with about 8.


----------



## zatapa

mdabubacker said:


> Oh secondly Indians speak better english than Dutch anytime anywhere both written and verbal. Thanks to the Brits that is one great thing they left as a legacy for Indians to built upon.


Isn't that exactly what i said? Indians and Filipinos speak English. I said that hiring them makes perfect sense.


----------



## mdabubacker

zatapa said:


> Isn't that exactly what i said? Indians and Filipinos speak English. I said that hiring them makes perfect sense.


May be , but you were surprised initially until you understood the context and applicability correct? That is where opinions come into play....


----------



## Simey

mdabubacker said:


> May I ask you why you were surprised on the first place. Their geography is closer to UAE than where you came from and their population is way higher than the population of entire Europe put together so makes perfect sense to me. That specific statement speaks volume about the deep seated opinion some people have about Indians or Chinese in general.
> 
> Oh secondly Indians speak better english than Dutch anytime anywhere both written and verbal. Thanks to the Brits that is one great thing they left as a legacy for Indians to built upon.


OK, that's just weird. In my experience the Dutch speak embarrasingly good English. Better and more comprehensible than many English or Americans. 

I think you are also being a bit too PC. Many Indians here speak good English but let's be real, you do hear some very thick accents that can be a challenge sometimes.


----------



## mdabubacker

Simey said:


> OK, that's just weird. In my experience the Dutch speak embarrasingly good English. Better and more comprehensible than many English or Americans.
> 
> I think you are also being a bit too PC. Many Indians here speak good English but let's be real, you do hear some very thick accents that can be a challenge sometimes.


That is interesting. You are really quick in generalising and speaking for the entire dutch population with your experience which is the bottomline to this entire thread.

Agreed people from the sub continent do have accent which is a challenge at times but the case is the same with people from elsewhere whose native language is not English including but not limited to people from Europe.


----------



## Simey

mdabubacker said:


> That is interesting. You are really quick in generalising and speaking for the entire dutch population with your experience which is the bottomline to this entire thread.
> 
> Agreed people from the sub continent do have accent which is a challenge at times but the case is the same with people from elsewhere whose native language is not English including but not limited to people from Europe.


Who said otherwise?

I have no idea what you mean by "with your experience which is the bottomline to this entire thread." Is "bottomline" even a word?


----------



## zatapa

See the difference? I say Indians speak good English, you are offended. You say Dutch people don't speak good English, I am not offended at all.


----------



## mdabubacker

zatapa said:


> See the difference? I say Indians speak good English, you are offended. You say Dutch people don't speak good English, I am not offended at all.


I am not offended at all.I was trying to put things in perspective, where generalization has been the theme here in this thread by a few which in principle I do not agree to. Hope that clarifies.

I will start a fresh thread on who speaks better english which would be a fun thread to listen


----------



## RandomDude

IzzyBella said:


> I'm western and my package is zero dirhams.  *stirs pot moreeeee*


Your case why quite exceptional, and I quote you: " Flat chest Asian Girl".

You know, things these days can be fixed to achieve :tape2: bigger and more rounded salary.


----------



## RandomDude

plckid said:


> I was underpaid as well. My colleague was doing the same job as mine in the company. He was an Arab(not Local). He got three times more salary than me. .Everyone in the company everybody knew I was much better than my colleague. My boss requested for a rasie for me but I got nothing.. It is so funny when people tell westerners/arabs get paid more than asians because the live lavishly , you pay me more and see how I spend my life.


Your case just proves it rather anything else.

If for some reason you had to change job, do you think the next company will put you again with 2/3 less of others till you climb up the ladder and become the go to man? Of course they'll do that!

You started off less than your peers, period, fullstop! This should not happen, you should not justify by saying, but you can always build yourself and move within the ranks. Does not happen easily in large companies.

Why where you less in the first place?


----------



## CHFIII

mdabubacker said:


> I am not offended at all.I was trying to put things in perspective, where generalization has been the theme here in this thread by a few which in principle I do not agree to. Hope that clarifies.
> 
> I will start a fresh thread on who speaks better english which would be a fun thread to listen


Roflmao.

Mda- I have a very dear friend who is Indian but he was born and raised in NYC with a heavy "New Yawk" accent. When we were young and obnoxious we'd go out drinking and mess with the waitress - he'd do a heavy "Indian" accent the first time shed come by - very became "werry". Etcetera. Next time she came by he'd revert back to his normal speech and suddenly I'd abuse my odd gift for impersonation to sound like a fresh off the boat Indian import. The waitress would turn her head sideways and give that same befuddled look a puppy gives you when they hear an odd noise. I suppose I am easily amused.

I do get a kick out of the average American who has never been more than 100 miles from home but thinks those who are not native English speakers lack communication skills.

Almost as fun as when a friend of mine from the UK was visiting and had to hide his amusement when a stunningly attractive Texas lady told him "y'all sure do talk funny!". He was too smitten (and too British) to be impolite and simply smiled. Later that evening a very drunk woman with an IQ somewhere in the vicinity of room temperature stumbled up and said "where the !?%#?! Is the can in this place?". My friend just pointed toward the hallway where the restrooms/wc/loo were located and told her "turn left into that hallway, the second door on the right says "LADIES". ....just disregard the sign and go right in". She smiled and thanked him. So sad.

Sigh. It is ironic how provincial we tend to be in the US and how misaligned our perceptions oif the rest of the world tend to be compared to reality.

Perhaps the real test of "worldliness" should be one's ability to recognize what aspects of his/her own culture are ironic and be able to laugh about it. I tried to take myself seriously for a time but never quite managed to master that skill.


----------



## RandomDude

twowheelsgood said:


> And whether you like it or not, one factor in psychological make up is nationality and upbringing. We have an expression in the Uk that you can take the girl out of Essex, but you cannot take the Essex out of the girl - and that can be applied universally.
> 
> If you believe a single or even two generations in a foreign country changes upbringing after centuries of the original homeland influence, then you are sadly mistaken.
> 
> All other things being equal, you are right that nationality should not matter, but as no two people are ever equal and we live in a real world, then those are the rules.
> 
> We know you're a good chap(ess) but at the end of the day you're descended from criminals so we wouldn't hire you, regardless of your qualifications  :hug:


In my OP, I have clearly mentioned, we are no longer talking about outsiders, we are talking about generations entering the work force, born,raised and educated in the UAE or in the same countries, yet different salaries. And yes, same schools both went to.

The argument about life back home, I know many Portuguese who because of the bad economy, took horrible packages, while they are far more sophisticated,educated,private schooled,high class families than their counterparts coming from Essex or something. Should we start looking at your life standard back home? Sure enough, I bet you the majority of highly paid people will be fleeing. 

Lets focus on the current situation of many nationalities 20 something, who went to the same school, got education in the UAE or went for college elsewhere, and now entering the market, will they be treated equally? No , passport payscale will be applied, period.

It is funny looking at the flags of those defending the status quo


----------



## RandomDude

CHFIII said:


> Roflmao.
> I do get a kick out of the average American who has never been more than 100 miles from home but thinks those who are not native English speakers lack communication skills.
> 
> Almost as fun as when a friend of mine from the UK was visiting and had to hide his amusement when a stunningly attractive Texas lady told him "y'all sure do talk funny!". He was too smitten (and too British) to be impolite and simply smiled. Later that evening a very drunk woman with an IQ somewhere in the vicinity of


Don't mess with Texas!

Must be a kid from California?:fencing:


----------



## RandomDude

twowheelsgood said:


> You'll find that employment contracts, tenancy contracts and many aspect of UAE law were developed on the back of UK laws


And UK Laws are supposed to be good?


----------



## RandomDude

CHFIII said:


> Lol. I stopped looking so hard at resumes and went to asking to see sanitized work deliverables - I don't care where someone is from if they can construct good written materials and present them effectively ;-)
> 
> ....and that standard tends to favor some groups and exclude others. Selfish, not racist - got sick of redoing things,


Just for the record, Americans deserve every penny, they are usually very honest people, straight forward, hard workers and wont give you BS. 

I would understand a US citizen coming to the Gulf will be demanding a good salary, long distance, the US salaries are already high,the US work ethics is based on honesty and hard work.

Other nationalities , where shall I start? They come from broken homes, think the UAE is party land and act foolishly. Very sneaky when doing business, the devil will be a student. 

Americans have totally different culture and was really happy working with. You get some idiots, but they will tell you, we are idiots, be warned. Others, they smile in your face, talk behind you all the time. Turn people on each other, going from one desk to another telling X about what Y was saying about him.....

US will not discriminate or only be friends with another US colleague.

Please start your mass migration to the GCC (though not in aircarft carriers this time  ) You are nice, honest and highly qualified people. Bring along your Northern and Southern Neighbors.

Will live happily with a nice Berrito in Karama over the nose irritating smells of never washed lady's hair painted in some oily stuff.


----------



## CHFIII

RandomDude said:


> Don't mess with Texas!
> 
> Must be a kid from California?:fencing:


Lol... No, I was born in New Jersey, raised in Kentucky, grad school in Tennessee and Mississippi before migrating to Texas at 24 and have been here the past 20 but I travel 100-200k miles each year and do business throughout the americas and europe. 

...I can appreciate the best and joke about the worst of each with equal objectivity.

California? I'm a heterosexual white male with libertarian political instincts (I can offend the far left and far right with equal ease) and as a gun owning Texan I don't know that I can get an entry visa to California these days, I would fail the political correctness tests.


----------



## RandomDude

QOFE said:


> As long as masses from Asia come here to work accepting tiny salaries the discrimination will continue.
> Please also remember that that there is discrimination against westerners too. There are so many job adverts around where they advertise for Indian/Filipino only.
> When people continue to come to work for 2,000-3,000 DHS a month for jobs that should pay 10,000+ this discrimination will continue.


Hahahaha , fair enough, please go ahead and take that job advertised for Indian/Filipnos only.

Come here after a week if you can handle the Kabayan life.

Living with 4 people in a 4x5 meters room , commute everyday from Sharjah or Ajman to Jebel Ali leaving at 6am and reaching home by 7:30pm, then getting paid 3-4k AED.

Please take that job so you would not feel left out....

Also, don't forget the casual advancement of your boss or else. Though kudos to the UAE government for being strict regarding this issue.


----------



## RandomDude

zatapa said:


> Needless to mention that good people receive salary increases and bad ones don't, regardless of their origin.


ound:

Seriously with those naive transparent Scandinavian country. 

Dude, I worked in a company with the same people of my nationality. 

Now, who was getting raises and good salary? The guy related to the HR Manager, while those working their .... off, got nothing....

So come again?


----------



## Bbay2Oz

RandomDude said:


> Many have experienced it and witnessed it here.
> Same person, same qualifications, same everything, if applying with one nationality would get different package if applied with another nationality.
> 
> ............
> 
> Yeah, take it or leave it folks can spare us their opionion, you are entitled to say it, but, find something more productive.


Some things never change (and this problem existed even in the early 90's). When will it stop? By the looks of it, doubt it ever will. 

Some professions/jobs are worse than others - retail sales (counter staff), hospitality, marketing, receptionists, office managers etc probably have some of the most blatantly discriminatory hiring practices. I still recall the Gulf News/KT adverts - "Only [XYZ - used to be UK/US at the time] passport holders need apply". If it was some small-time Indian owned business wanting an accountant then the advert would shamelessly state "Only Indians need apply". The latter was because the company wanted to pay as little as possible and I guess there was an infinite supply of Indian accountants willing to work for peanuts. 

There are several industries that don't really care about your nationality - if you have the skills and experience then for the right salary, the job could be yours. Banking and Finance is one such industry (or at least was when I used to live there). The pay is good and you find different nationalities working at all levels. This is just based on my personal experience as I used to work in banking and finance. 

Not sure what the situation there is now though, guess there are a lot more educated UAE nationals starting to enter the workforce? I recall I had to meet nationalisation targets in my department - think at that time, 30-40% of my staff had to be locals. Entry level positions were strictly reserved for locals who unfortunately had a huge sense of entitlement - managerial wages for performing clerical tasks. Banks used to get around this problem by "outsourcing. 

I for one am really glad we made the decision to move out of Dubai when my oldest started high school. There is absolutely no way I'd ever want my kids graduating or starting their career in the UAE.


----------



## RandomDude

Ok, I have started this and then went away for a while, being a low paid person, I have to get up at 6:30am, hit the roads, jump from one office to another.

Anyways, can I please ask everyone to not mention any nationality or race?

The argument is very simple, you should pay people based on the cost of living of the country,their qualifications. Such a case is very clear where we have a new generation of expats, born,raised and educated in the UAE. Most of the arguments of this status quo laid out here are made obsolete with the current situation.

Should companies start publishing their employees salaries? 
Should companies start publishing their pay scale structure?

For those saying the HR manager is of the same nationality, let me tell you this, this HR manager will be even paid less than the one he is hiring.

Salaries is based on nationality, period. The argument about communication skills should include how many languages do you speak. What about the official language of the country? Dealing with governmental bodies?

With all fairness, work ethics differ from one place to another, but forgive me for mentioning this nationality, the American ethics is the highest. Others, it really depends on the person.

From personal experience, I find that most issues are bad communication. If you connect to people, you'll get everything done. For example, if a manager from nationality X bosses someone from culture Y, they'll never work or give any output. But if X befriends Y, things will change.

I really had the worst experience with a manager from a low paid nationality. She was very overpaid, and was not entirely clean when it comes to money matters, and one of the guys told me about her little rendezvous with the people of same nationality, and their plan to take over. Her body odor was unbearable , her clothes were not suited for a professional environment (ethnic clothes showing stomach) . Now, how did she get away with all of this?
It is the owner fault, he was basically in the dark.


----------



## RandomDude

zatapa said:


> Why are people so obsessed with equality? We all want to be different but when there are disadvantages, then everyone suddenly wants to be considered equal.
> 
> Usually it's the ones complaining that don't move up the ladder. Successful people don't complain, they take action.
> 
> People have a tendency to think that they are always better than their coworkers, but in reality other people may see it differently. There are no equal people, no equal cultures, no equal universities and no equal resumes. So don't compare your salary with people who earn more. There are always people who earn a lot less than you as well.


True, but it is not about equality.

It is about being forced to live in Ajman and work in Jebil Ali or Abu Dhabi, send your kids back to your country because you cannot afford it, not being able to pay up your loan, having to run across bad hospitals because your insurance is medicore, having to buy a beat up honda civic because your salary is horrible. Having to wake up at 5am to catch the bus from Sharjah taking you to Dubai.
Having to live with other 8 people in a crammed up room , all this while: A newly graduate will be making 6 times you, only because of the passport.


----------



## CHFIII

RandomDude said:


> True, but it is not about equality.
> 
> It is about being forced to live in Ajman and work in Jebil Ali or Abu Dhabi, send your kids back to your country because you cannot afford it, not being able to pay up your loan, having to run across bad hospitals because your insurance is medicore, having to buy a beat up honda civic because your salary is horrible. Having to wake up at 5am to catch the bus from Sharjah taking you to Dubai.
> Having to live with other 8 people in a crammed up room , all this while: A newly graduate will be making 6 times you, only because of the passport.


So... Let me challenge this a bit and please take in the friendly spirit intended:

You started with 'forced' then four times you said 'having to'.

Unless you were sold into servitude then this isn't really the case. If you replace each of those with "I chose to" it becomes more accurate. Before you mistake this as a rebuke or blaming you for inequitable practices you disagree with please trust that I point this out as a friend. Your words suggest that you perceive this as a situation with no hope and that you are stuck with it. Can you do better in UAE? I have no idea. Back home? I haven't a clue. 
Why are you in UAE and not somewhere else? Why do you accept the unacceptable or expect anything better that which you permit?
Mm

Here is a question I like to ask people when they ask me how to pursue a raise or promotion: "Tell me how your boss is measured. What are their targets? How are they affected by meeting or missing them? How does your boss' performance affect HIS boss and the company's goals? How does your performance affect your boss'?.". 

If the answer is "I have no idea" then I tell them to go find out because they won't deserve a raise until they know and once they know I will be happy to help them but they will probably know the answer already.

Do you know the answer to my question? When you do you will know how to solve your problem. You need to know the value you bring in order to pry it out of your employer and you can't determine that until you know what they value and why. To win the game you need to know what game is being played and how it is scored and find a position where you can win.

Best application of that principle I have ever seen? My wife was fired by a manager who she really liked but who needed someone in that role who was happy working 60-70 hours per week. Two years later she had a director' s salary doing what she loves and the guy who fired her works for her now and takes orders from her. How did she pull that off? Simple, I fired her so she got even - she married me. Who is the smarter one?


----------



## Bbay2Oz

RandomDude said:


> Ok, I have started this and then went away for a while, being a low paid person, I have to get up at 6:30am, hit the roads, jump from one office to another.
> 
> Anyways, can I please ask everyone to not mention any nationality or race?
> 
> The argument is very simple, you should pay people based on the cost of living of the country,their qualifications. Such a case is very clear where we have a new generation of expats, born,raised and educated in the UAE. Most of the arguments of this status quo laid out here are made obsolete with the current situation.
> 
> Should companies start publishing their employees salaries?
> Should companies start publishing their pay scale structure?
> 
> For those saying the HR manager is of the same nationality, let me tell you this, this HR manager will be even paid less than the one he is hiring.
> 
> Salaries is based on nationality, period. The argument about communication skills should include how many languages do you speak. What about the official language of the country? Dealing with governmental bodies?
> 
> With all fairness, work ethics differ from one place to another, but forgive me for mentioning this nationality, the American ethics is the highest. Others, it really depends on the person.
> 
> From personal experience, I find that most issues are bad communication. If you connect to people, you'll get everything done. For example, if a manager from nationality X bosses someone from culture Y, they'll never work or give any output. But if X befriends Y, things will change.
> 
> I really had the worst experience with a manager from a low paid nationality. She was very overpaid, and was not entirely clean when it comes to money matters, and one of the guys told me about her little rendezvous with the people of same nationality, and their plan to take over. Her body odor was unbearable , her clothes were not suited for a professional environment (ethnic clothes showing stomach) . Now, how did she get away with all of this?
> It is the owner fault, he was basically in the dark.



I'd argue that the salary should be based on the job itself (not all jobs are equal), skills, experience, supply and demand/ industry bench marks etc. Bonus should be based purely on performance. The person may have a PhD in sweet f'all for all I care. So what, does he have the skills and experience to get the job done? Degrees/qualifications are over-rated and are a dime a dozen.

Stop acting like a suffering martyr and making excuses for yourself. If you think you're really good then do something about it. Find another job/move/acquire new skills/do whatever it takes. 

The only way to find out what you're really worth is to look for another job and move. I did - worked as a Manager for the same bank for several years and started being taken for granted. Moved for thrice the salary and 5 years later (and a couple of promotions thereafter), my last salary was 6.5 times what I was paid when I left my previous employer. My salary was based on my skills and mostly performance on the job and not my nationality [Indian]. I didn't speak Arabic and it wasn't a requirement for my job. 

Our first car in Dubai happened to be a Honda Civic and had it for 10 years - guess you'd call it beat up. It got me from point A to point B and was reliable. Didn't give a rat's a%&* what others drove. Would have continued to drive it if it wasn't for the change in rules. You want a better car? Save and buy it outright. If you need a loan to buy a fancy car you can't afford it. Stop taking loans unless it is a necessity (e.g. a medical emergency). Taking a loan to buy a lifestyle/live the high life is sheer madness. I'd go as far as to say, never get into debt in Dubai. 

People live in not so desirable suburbs and commute 2-3 hours daily. Happens to people every where in the world and not just in the UAE - that's life. So stop whining about being forced to live in Ajman. 

The "ethinic dress showing the stomach" is called a saree. There is no question of "getting away with it". You chose to live in a multi-cultural society and you must tolerate it even if you don't enjoy learning about so many different cultures. 

And the lady with the bad body odour - have you told her about it? I recall encountering the same problem with one of my colleagues and told her about it. You need to be tactful and diplomatic. She was actually grateful that I brought it to her attention. Problem solved for both.

The rest of the stuff you mention - that's office politics for you. Again, happens in most work places, if not everywhere. Learn to deal with it.


----------



## IzzyBella

RandomDude said:


> Your case why quite exceptional, and I quote you: " Flat chest Asian Girl". You know, things these days can be fixed to achieve :tape2: bigger and more rounded salary.


I'm Asian by ethnicity, not by passport! 

In all fairness, I'm in a lucky position where I'm married to someone who loves his corporate job which enables me to remain working on my animal rescue organisation. <3

So yay for being a flat-cheated Asian Brit!


----------



## CHFIII

IzzyBella said:


> I'm Asian by ethnicity, not by passport!
> 
> In all fairness, I'm in a lucky position where I'm married to someone who loves his corporate job which enables me to remain working on my animal rescue organisation. <3
> 
> So yay for being a flat-cheated Asian Brit!


So if we come over I hope you have a little girl my sons age. He's got a Pakistani mom with a us passport and an American dad of mostly German ethnicity so if our kids got together and they had a kid one day they could pretty well confuse the hell out of anyone who wanted to use ethnicity, religous background and passport to define them and they'd have a blast with this thread ;-)


----------



## Fat Bhoy Tim

IzzyBella said:


> I'm Asian by ethnicity, not by passport!
> 
> In all fairness, I'm in a lucky position where I'm married to someone who loves his corporate job which enables me to remain working on my animal rescue organisation. <3
> 
> So yay for being a flat-*cheated* Asian Brit!


And fat-fingered?


----------



## ccr

CHFIII said:


> If the answer is "I have no idea" then I tell them to go find out because they won't deserve a raise...


Actually, it is his manager who is at fault.

If your employees do not understand the annual KPO and work aimlessly, the manager should be fired. 



> Simple, I fired her so she got even - she married me. Who is the smarter one?


You deserve it, what is the saying about don't sh*t where you eat ?


----------



## QOFE

This thread should probably have been ignored in the first place since the OP is just after winding people up while he actually shows his own prejudiced mind as well as the MASSIVE chip on the shoulder.


----------



## IzzyBella

CHFIII said:


> So if we come over I hope you have a little girl my sons age. He's got a Pakistani mom with a us passport and an American dad of mostly German ethnicity so if our kids got together and they had a kid one day they could pretty well confuse the hell out of anyone who wanted to use ethnicity, religous background and passport to define them and they'd have a blast with this thread ;-)


Gosh no, no kids. Thank GOD! I don't think I could deal with them. Though I do have 2 dogs. 2 dogs and a husband are enough responsibility for me as it is! 



Fat Bhoy Tim said:


> And fat-fingered?


Dude, give me a break. It was 5.30am and the cat knocked over my mac. I was using my iPhone app with blurry just-woke-up-vision... but yes, I do have Fat Thumb Syndrome.


----------



## Fat Bhoy Tim

IzzyBella said:


> Dude, give me a break. It was 5.30am and the cat knocked over my mac. I was using my iPhone app with blurry just-woke-up-vision... but yes, I do have Fat Thumb Syndrome.


:violin: 

I do have genuine sympathy for 5:30am start on a Sunday morning though.


----------



## CHFIII

ccr said:


> Actually, it is his manager who is at fault.
> 
> If your employees do not understand the annual KPO and work aimlessly, the manager should be fired.
> 
> You deserve it, what is the saying about don't sh*t where you eat ?


lol... Agree on first point but I'm amazed at how common that aimless wandering is and I can't advise someone to make their manager smarter, can only advise them to worry about what they can control.

On the second, hey - To be clear we became close after she left, not before and letting someone go isn't exactly favoritism.... That's a line you don't cross for about a million good reasons ;-). Kidding aside it worked out - she and I are ridiculously happy and there's nobody I'd rather "work for".


----------



## Fat Bhoy Tim

CHFIII said:


> Roflmao.
> 
> Sigh. It is ironic how provincial we tend to be in the US and how misaligned our perceptions of the rest of the world tend to be compared to reality.
> 
> Perhaps the real test of "worldliness" should be one's ability to recognize what aspects of his/her own culture are ironic and be able to laugh about it. I tried to take myself seriously for a time but never quite managed to master that skill.


You've described most of the UK in that first paragraph, evening if there's some appreciation for something existing beyond the Channel.

I'm half American, half Scottish - and have lived outside of both for the majority of my life. I'm fairly perceptive to this sort of stuff and often play both sides (off against each other); in fact I'm often accused of code-switching whenever it's convenient to me.


----------



## CHFIII

Fat Bhoy Tim said:


> You've described most of the UK in that first paragraph, evening if there's some appreciation for something existing beyond the Channel.
> 
> I'm half American, half Scottish - and have lived outside of both for the majority of my life. I'm fairly perceptive to this sort of stuff and often play both sides (off against each other); in fact I'm often accused of code-switching whenever it's convenient to me.


So that's perfect. Then you understand what happens to bourbon barrels when they are no longer fit for aging good whiskey - they are sent to Scotland to age the inferior stuff ;-). (said the man from Kentucky).

Everybody is a little bit full of crap. It's those who can't see it or are too afflicted with recto-cranial inversion to acknowledge it that I pity.


----------



## Fat Bhoy Tim

CHFIII said:


> So that's perfect. Then you understand what happens to bourbon barrels when they are no longer fit for aging good whiskey - they are sent to Scotland to age the inferior stuff ;-). (said the man from Kentucky).
> 
> Everybody is a little bit full of crap. It's those who can't see it or are too afflicted with recto-cranial inversion to acknowledge it that I pity.


Bourbon is bourbon, and whisky lacks an E  In all seriousness though, I do like some Jim Beam.

I'm a bit of a [email protected], I have no problems admitting it :humble:


----------



## IzzyBella

Fat Bhoy Tim said:


> I'm a bit of a [email protected], I have no problems admitting it :humble:


I have no problems admitting it either: you're a [email protected] :tongue1:


----------



## Tropicana

QOFE said:


> This thread should probably have been ignored in the first place since the OP is just after winding people up while he actually shows his own prejudiced mind as well as the MASSIVE chip on the shoulder.


How is it a wind up when he asks some very valid questions?


----------



## Fat Bhoy Tim

IzzyBella said:


> I have no problems admitting it either: you're a [email protected] :tongue1:


Shouldn't you unemployed-ish types be making yourself useful or something? :washing:


----------



## jxx

I see this everywhere in UAE. most of the westerners gets more than they should.


----------



## zatapa

I disagree. We deserve much more!


----------



## arabianhorse

jxx said:


> I see this everywhere in UAE. most of the westerners gets more than they should.


we have minimum wage where we come from Jxx.

so that's why we cannot accept salaries below a certain level even if we wanted to. Its the law.

I offered to take a 500,000 dirham pay cut when I got here, but the missus would have reported me, got a divorce and taken me to the cleaners.


----------



## blazeaway

Fat Bhoy Tim said:


> Bourbon is bourbon, and whisky lacks an E  In all seriousness though, I do like some Jim Beam. I'm a bit of a [email protected], I have no problems admitting it :humble:


Unless of course you are talking about the best whiskey - Irish!


----------



## Fat Bhoy Tim

blazeaway said:


> Unless of course you are talking about the best whiskey - Irish!


Pish; noun.


----------



## RandomDude

Sparki said:


> I don't think salaries are based on nationalities at all, I think it's based on the individual education, skills and experience!
> 
> My cousin is a USA passport holder, fresh graduate, he came to Dubai looking for a job but unfortunately he got unsuitable offers eventually he went back to USA.
> 
> in my opinion I think it'd be more fruitful for us to save our time investing in ourselves for the long run rather than wasting time looking at others income.
> 
> Regards


Come one dude, his name does not check

HR people are smart enough and know half people got Canadian or something passports.


----------



## RandomDude

Bbay2Oz said:


> The "ethinic dress showing the stomach" is called a saree. There is no question of "getting away with it". You chose to live in a multi-cultural society and you must tolerate it even if you don't enjoy learning about so many different cultures.
> 
> And the lady with the bad body odour - have you told her about it?


Not in a working environment. It is not about culture or celebrating our difference or whatever politically correct BS stuff is thrown in.

It is not correct sitting in the same meeting with someone having their huge billy sticking out of their dress.

Company too afraid to say something to be yelled at: Multiculturalism, you are intolerant, then the sobbing and martyr act starts.

Yeah, body odor, lets see, I wise really nice enough to tell her, please wash your hair every morning, your office stinks and nauseating, next thing I know, I have been hit by a call from HR saying the same stupid rehortric multilculti stuff.

how can you justify a supposedly educated senior man stinking the world up to the point clients are saying, how come you have such person in your company, we thought you were prestigious. 

So I was smart enough to tell HR about the client comment, what happened? The office become divided up, thanks to another employee complaining about the pantry stinking up with very strong smells.

I'm just had it enough with people getting away with everything just screaming, tolerance,racisim,multi shmulti....like guys in the UK demanding five time prayer breaks and they are doing anything but praying....


----------



## RandomDude

zatapa said:


> I disagree. We deserve much more!


You consider yourself Westerner? Lol you are more of Northern 

Don't you have some penguins to feed ? Just kidding with you.

Oh wait, you are the dudes living on lakes or something, with the cows and nice cheese and wind mills.


----------



## blazeaway

RandomDude said:


> You consider yourself Westerner? Lol you are more of Northern  Don't you have some penguins to feed ? Just kidding with you. Oh wait, you are the dudes living on lakes or something, with the cows and nice cheese and wind mills.


Get a life!


----------



## RandomDude

IzzyBella said:


> I'm married to a flat-cheated Asian Brit!



Ok boys, hold your horses you heard the lady, lets find someone else.

Thank you Izzy for destroying our hopes......you are really cool and he's a lucky man.

I wish the forums had more people like you


----------



## RandomDude

QOFE said:


> MASSIVE chip on the shoulder.


No, I use a really good anti dandiruff shampoo, no chips on my shoulders.

Yeah, lets escape the issue by going personal?

Oldest argument escaping tactics, mostly at schools.


----------



## RandomDude

IzzyBella said:


> Dude, give me a break. It was 5.30am and the cat knocked over my mac. I was using my iPhone app with blurry just-woke-up-vision... but yes, I do have Fat Thumb Syndrome.


Sounds you are living hungover?

People can be awake at 5:30am?


----------



## RandomDude

blazeaway said:


> Get a life!


Wow, I have never ever considered that.
Thank you for showing me the right path, I'm saved now and I owe it all to your amazing wisdom.

Go Selfie Yourself ,in celebrating this moment.


----------



## CHFIII

IzzyBella said:


> I have no problems admitting it either: you're a [email protected] :tongue1:


I don't care what country you're from.... THAT was funny!


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## IzzyBella

Thanks 

Though, honestly, the bigger picture/regarding this thread: name discrimination is the biggest factor worldwide. I remember reading an article in The Independent whilst I was back home where someone used a "English Professional Name" as opposed to his given Indian name. He submitted both CVs, the only difference being the name and email account. Guess which one - hands down - got more interviews. There's prejudice everywhere. 

The bad thing about the UAE, as someone mentioned is that people expect more money than what they got back home. If you're a UK/US/NZ/AUS/SA passport holder your wage is going to be far more than someone who say, came from most areas of Asia. The western countries tend to have a minimum wage which far exceeds the current wage.

I'm going for a second interview somewhere this week. The wage they're offering is less than half the minimum wage back home. Go figure. I guess the colour of my skin does negate my passport.


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## zatapa

RandomDude said:


> You consider yourself Westerner? Lol you are more of Northern
> 
> Don't you have some penguins to feed ? Just kidding with you.
> 
> Oh wait, you are the dudes living on lakes or something, with the cows and nice cheese and wind mills.


Yes my house back home is actually a windmill, we have a big garden full of tulips and when i am not feeding or milking the cows, i smoke weed all day. In the windmill we cut clogs and make cheese.


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## zatapa

The thing is - certain cultures are never offended. What can you possibly say to offend a dutchman? 
Other cultures have a habit of feeling discriminated. A certain job goes to a colleague and not you: discrimination!!

The true icons of this world did not let discrimination get in their way. Read about the first Afro-American baseball player in the US to join the MLB. No one here will ever experience what that guy went through. Did he give up? No.


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## Felixtoo2

When I first came to Dubai I earned three times as much as an Indian co-worker who was doing the same job and I found this situation unacceptable so I made an official complaint about it. 
I'm very glad to say that my complaint was upheld and I now earn just over four times what he earns!! Lol


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## Robbo5265

Felixtoo2 said:


> When I first came to Dubai I earned three times as much as an Indian co-worker who was doing the same job and I found this situation unacceptable so I made an official complaint about it. I'm very glad to say that my complaint was upheld and I now earn just over four times what he earns!! Lol


haha brilliant!


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## Bbay2Oz

IzzyBella said:


> The bad thing about the UAE, as someone mentioned is that people expect more money than what they got back home.


It is not a bad thing and people have the right to expect more than what they got back home - otherwise what's the point of uprooting yourself and moving?




IzzyBella said:


> If you're a UK/US/NZ/AUS/SA passport holder your wage is going to be far more than someone who say, came from most areas of Asia. The western countries tend to have a minimum wage which far exceeds the current wage.


True. Minimum wages and salaries in general are high in Australia. There are a lot more opportunities for kids to earn some money. It teaches them budgeting, responsibility and becoming independent (no more pocket money!). There is simply no opportunity for high school/Uni students to work in the UAE. My daughter is 18 and in her first year at Uni. She makes around $300 a week for an hours work each day from Mon-Sat, tutoring French and Maths. This is in addition to the $5k p.a. the Uni pays her along with a full tuition waiver - as a merit scholarship. I doubt she could ever have gotten such opportunities if she had continued with high school in the UAE. Before Uni, she went to a school ranked #1 in the state and we paid no tuition fees (apart from the voluntary contributions). Ditto my younger child in grade 6 – excellent school and we pay no fees. So if someone in my place (forget nationality) were to consider a move to Dubai then they'd expect at least AED275,000 p.a. to meet education expenses alone. A similar house in Dubai, within 20-25 min drive to the CBD/workplace would probably cost AED 300,000 p.a. in rent. And so on.... These are figures just to match a like for like living. 

Then there are things that you can't really put a price tag on. The weather (that you enjoy), changing colours during spring and fall, stunning natural beauty, well planned suburbs with numerous gardens/parks where even your family pets/dogs are welcome......just your routine every day life. There would be some who are very passionate about their hobbies or those that are already enjoying their job/work (I'm thinking of the lady with the ponies in the salary thread). These people would demand a much higher compensation in order to give up their existing lifestyle. I know I would if I were in their place. I'm an avid gardener and the sheer joy and satisfaction I get from 2-4 hours of hard physical labour everyday is much more than what I ever got from my job in Dubai – a link to show you some fruits of my labour 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157631233024842/ .

It is not a question of simply getting a package that affords you an expat lifestyle - villa in the Palm or wherever, school fees, cheap domestic help, shopping, tax free savings...etc. There has to be a pull factor and Dubai has to pay a lot of more, over and above living expenses, in order to attract some people to work and live there. 

The salary/package YOU get will ultimately depend on YOU. Not happy with the salary or think you're being discriminated against? Don't take the job – find another job/country that will pay you the same as people with your experience/qualifications.

Gosh, I have rambled on and on. Sorry


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## Beamrider

I really don't understand the point of this thread...

Is there salary discrimination in Dubai based on nationality/ethnicity? Generally yes.
Why is that? Because of reasons.
Can we change that? Surely not ranting about it in here. There is a place for that and it's DDR in the Sandpit.


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## rsinner

Beamrider said:


> I really don't understand the point of this thread...
> 
> Is there salary discrimination in Dubai based on nationality/ethnicity? Generally yes.
> Why is that? Because of reasons.
> Can we change that? Surely not ranting about it in here. There is a place for that and it's DDR in the Sandpit.


Best post on the thread 
:deadhorse:


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## rsinner

Bbay2Oz said:


> https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157631233024842/ .


My knowledge of botany is close to zero, but the pics are awesome


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## Bbay2Oz

rsinner said:


> My knowledge of botany is close to zero, but the pics are awesome


Thanks. Mine was zero too until I started living here.


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## Bbay2Oz

Beamrider said:


> I really don't understand the point of this thread...
> 
> Is there salary discrimination in Dubai based on nationality/ethnicity? Generally yes.
> Why is that? Because of reasons.
> Can we change that? Surely not ranting about it in here. There is a place for that and it's DDR in the Sandpit.


I guess the thread is now morphing into reasons about why the disparities exist rather than the OP's rant. What is DDR?


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## Canada Dry

RandomDude said:


> True, but it is not about equality.
> 
> It is about being forced to live in Ajman and work in Jebil Ali or Abu Dhabi, send your kids back to your country because you cannot afford it, not being able to pay up your loan, having to run across bad hospitals because your insurance is medicore, having to buy a beat up honda civic because your salary is horrible. Having to wake up at 5am to catch the bus from Sharjah taking you to Dubai.
> Having to live with other 8 people in a crammed up room , all this while: A newly graduate will be making 6 times you, only because of the passport.


But all that is still far better than what the average Indian or Philipino lives like back home.
Have you seen slums in Indian cities? Or villages without any toilets or water?
Do you know that hundreds of millions of people in Asia and Africa do not have access to toilets?
For a person coming from that background, living in Ajman and going to a bad hospital and a beat up Honda Civic may be heaven. 
Staying with 8 people may not be a problem because back home they were staying with 12.

We have to stop looking at everything with a first world lens. The average person in the third world is poor and what they get in the Gulf is definitely far better than living in the slums, not having enough to eat, and bathing in a polluted river.


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## Sparki

Canada Dry said:


> But all that is still far better than what the average Indian or Philipino lives like back home.
> Have you seen slums in Indian cities? Or villages without any toilets or water?
> Do you know that hundreds of millions of people in Asia and Africa do not have access to toilets?
> For a person coming from that background, living in Ajman and going to a bad hospital and a beat up Honda Civic may be heaven.
> Staying with 8 people may not be a problem because back home they were staying with 12.
> 
> We have to stop looking at everything with a first world lens. The average person in the third world is poor and what they get in the Gulf is definitely far better than living in the slums, not having enough to eat, and bathing in a polluted river.


I think you have seen that on national geographic. hahaha


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## Canada Dry

Beamrider said:


> I really don't understand the point of this thread...
> 
> Is there salary discrimination in Dubai based on nationality/ethnicity? Generally yes.
> Why is that? Because of reasons.
> .


Yes, and yes. And for very good reasons if I may add. 

The Gulf in general and Dubai in particular works very well, far better than the US/UK/Canada/Australia/EU. 
One of the main reasons behind that is a lack of political correctness that has to some extent paralyzed the West's growth.
To show one example different from salaries etc. , in one western country, it is one ethnicity that is responsible for stuff like grooming young girls and honor killings, yet the government is powerless to stop them because of political correctness.


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## Canada Dry

This is one of those issues where reality may sound blunt and harsh to some. So I am sorry for that  However we need to realize that the current system works and that is the main thing. Is there discrimination? Yes 
Does it matter? No, because the system with discrimination is working better than those systems with a fake and imposed equality.


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## zatapa

The fact is that Dubai wouldn't be where it is today if it wasn't for cheap labour from Asia. Most people here owe their job to them being affordable. 
Companies send recruiters to Asia to attract a number of staff, they do not send them to Europe.
China is built on cheap labour. If you let them earn the same as in Europe, the US or Australia, it wouldn't be much of a production-based economy anymore. Basically, it would kill the economy.


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## Byja

Canada Dry said:


> ...the system with discrimination is working better than those systems with a fake and imposed equality.


http://www.themadshop.com.au/files/1999299/uploaded/TSHIRT%20slavery%20gets%20****%20done.JPG


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## zatapa

Funny though as most third world countries are not particularly known for their income equality either.


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## DubaiTom

Canada Dry said:


> The Gulf in general and Dubai in particular works very well, far better than the US/UK/Canada/Australia/EU.
> One of the main reasons behind that is a lack of political correctness that has to some extent paralyzed the West's growth.


Definitely has nothing to do with the natural resources available here . I wonder how the US/UK/Canada/Australia/EU would look like if 90% of the citizens were able to work for the government in order to collect "fees"


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## Mr Rossi

Canada Dry said:


> The Gulf in general and Dubai in particular works very well, far better than the US/UK/Canada/Australia/EU.
> One of the main reasons behind that is a lack of political correctness that has to some extent paralyzed the West's growth.
> To show one example different from salaries etc. , in one western country, it is one ethnicity that is responsible for stuff like grooming young girls and honor killings, yet the government is powerless to stop them because of political correctness.


Well, I anticipate my productivity shooting up if you continue to post here.


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## blazeaway

Mr Rossi said:


> Well, I anticipate my productivity shooting up if you continue to post here.


Mine to


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## Bbay2Oz

Canada Dry said:


> But all that is still far better than what the average Indian or Philipino lives like back home.
> Have you seen slums in Indian cities? Or villages without any toilets or water?
> Do you know that hundreds of millions of people in Asia and Africa do not have access to toilets?
> For a person coming from that background, living in Ajman and going to a bad hospital and a beat up Honda Civic may be heaven.
> Staying with 8 people may not be a problem because back home they were staying with 12.
> 
> We have to stop looking at everything with a first world lens. The average person in the third world is poor and what they get in the Gulf is definitely far better than living in the slums, not having enough to eat, and bathing in a polluted river.


The "average Indians" you refer to in your post above are generally labourers - the ones that live in shanties/live 12 in a room/without toilets and access to clean water, back home . They're illiterate, poverty stricken and have come to work as labourers in Dubai because they've been duped and sold this dream of making a lot of money and improving their lives back home. 

You think UAE is heaven for your so called "average Indians" just because their life back home was miserable? Which world are you living in? Their working and living conditions in Dubai/Shj/Ajman are appalling and worse than it was back home. But wait, that's okay because it could still be “slightly better” than in India, right?. I can assure you if all these people knew exactly how their life in the UAE would turn out in reality then they would never have left India notwithstanding their squalid living conditions back home. 

These poor labourers find to their horror that living in the UAE is even worse and there is no escape for them because they're trapped. They're desperate to return home but can't because their passport is confiscated by the contracting/construction company the minute they land in Dubai. They're now completely at the mercy of their sponsor and they have no choice. No wonder some of these labourers thought suicide and jumping in front of a car on SZR was their only solution to their problems (they thought the blood money could be used to wipe out their debts and help their families back home). 


No it is not okay to exploit the helpless. They're being taken advantage of. Addressing their problem has nothing to with political correctness (I refer to your other post in this thread) and has everything to do with apathy and incompetence on part of the governments - both UAE and to a larger extent, the Indian Govt (corrupt, spineless and incompetent). And not to forget greed - after all there's is more money and profits for UAE - all to be made on the back of exploitation. 

I hope the situation has improved for them now and there are new laws in place to protect them. I doubt that is the case though having just read some very recent articles in the press. 



Canada Dry said:


> But all that is still far better than what the average Indian or Philipino lives like back home.
> Have you seen slums in Indian cities? Or villages without any toilets or water?


Have you seen their living condition in Dubai, Sharjah, Ajman etc? Have you visited any of the labour camps in Sonapur/elsewhere in Dubai?Here, let me show you some pictures of their conditions in Dubai/Shj (from Gulf News):



















and some more here:

36 Pictures Of The Dirty Conditions In The Housing Camps For Migrant Workers In The UAE

Inside Sharjah labour camp where a â€˜shoe bloodbathâ€™ left 3 dead | GulfNews.com


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## zatapa

They should really try to keep it a bit more tidy there.


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## jxx

At least they should reduce the gap between the salaries.


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## Beamrider

Canada Dry said:


> This is one of those issues where reality may sound blunt and harsh to some. So I am sorry for that  However we need to realize that the current system works and that is the main thing. Is there discrimination? Yes
> Does it matter? No, because the system with discrimination is working better than those systems with a fake and imposed equality.


Troll-O-Meter: 7/10. Blatant but I see people falling for it, so props to you.


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## Bbay2Oz

My bad, I should have known better. I ought to spend more time on these forums. 201 posts in 4 years. tch tch....


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## zatapa

It's all in the financials. I do agree that for similar positions the differences should be minimised where possible. I have such cases here in my team where people in similar positions are seeing huge differences in salary.
This is normally because the Indians were originally taken from competitors in India for technical functions while some other nationalities came in on higher salaries from our offices in other countries.
The reality is now that for the expensive ones i do not see much room for growth but the Indian colleagues will see guaranteed salary increases every year.
So there you go.


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## msbettyboopdxb

I think some people are commenting just to get a rise out of the forum members. Troll much......


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## Mclovin oo7

msbettyboopdxb said:


> I think some people are commenting just to get a rise out of the forum members. Troll much......


That's not the point of internet forum? 

Though, there are some who are really trying to help people and provide good sound advice, there are some who are here to just feel important. They keep patting each others back and at times bully others.


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## Beamrider

Mclovin oo7 said:


> That's not the point of internet forum?


Nope. You wrote exactly what the purpose of this forum section should be:



> trying to help people and provide good sound advice.


For anything off-topic, there's the Sandpit.
Which is where this thread should be teleported immediately, IMHO.


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## Mclovin oo7

Beamrider said:


> Nope. You wrote exactly what the purpose of this forum section should be:
> 
> 
> 
> For anything off-topic, there's the Sandpit.
> Which is where this thread should be teleported immediately, IMHO.


You are absolutely right.


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## M123

It's usually not the case with big corporates who have global staffing policies. A legal secretary who is indian or filipino would get a similar wage to that at the same firm in another international office. 

For me it is a simple reason, people come to a place like the GCC to get paid more than they would back home. This principle applies to everyone and as such you get this disparity. 

These things evolve with time, and even back in the UK most CEOs were white men (usually not even having a university degree) and this is changing gradually, and similarly the policies will change as the UAE evolves.


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## Fat Bhoy Tim

M123 said:


> It's usually not the case with big corporates who have global staffing policies. A legal secretary who is indian or filipino would get a similar wage to that at the same firm *in another international office*.


Adjusted for cost of living and taxation, yes. Otherwise, no.


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## RandomDude

Beamrider said:


> I really don't understand the point of this thread...
> 
> Is there salary discrimination in Dubai based on nationality/ethnicity? Generally yes.
> Why is that? Because of reasons.
> Can we change that? Surely not ranting about it in here. There is a place for that and it's DDR in the Sandpit.



Yeah, lets discuss this over at the union? Or at our staged sit down?

:grouphug:


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## Beamrider

RandomDude said:


> Yeah, lets discuss this over at the union? Or at our staged sit down?
> 
> :grouphug:


I'm debating if I should just condescendingly "whatever" out of this thread or commend your attempts at snark.


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## RandomDude

I am generally disgusted by many thoughts expressed.

I understand the concept of trolling and Canada Dry is the culprit. I am more disgusted by someone else.

Terms thrown in as Slavery, oh, this sffhit hole is better than his home, they are living a dream life arguments, sickens me.

All should be treated as you wish to be treated. What goes around comes around, and no human should live unhappy or miserably. The labor who lives in slums, I am no better than him, he just did not get the chances I had in life. He was born poor, did not find resources, he could be the next Enistien, but here we have him, digging the ground in the blistering sun.

I cannot understand concepts like the Casting system ,apartheid, segregation, or owning a slave.


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## Sparki

RandomDude said:


> I am generally disgusted by many thoughts expressed.
> 
> I understand the concept of trolling and Canada Dry is the culprit. I am more disgusted by someone else.
> 
> Terms thrown in as Slavery, oh, this sffhit hole is better than his home, they are living a dream life arguments, sickens me.
> 
> All should be treated as you wish to be treated. What goes around comes around, and no human should live unhappy or miserably. The labor who lives in slums, I am no better than him, he just did not get the chances I had in life. He was born poor, did not find resources, he could be the next Enistien, but here we have him, digging the ground in the blistering sun.
> 
> I cannot understand concepts like the Casting system ,apartheid, segregation, or owning a slave.



I totally agree with you on this, I don't how could few members spark up such an idea.

and one member really popped "slavery" into one of his posts. I'm really shocked.
The racism can't be hidden, it's coming from the veins.

Poor laborers!


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## zatapa

Yet the people complaining about those jokes may be the ones employing a maid and paying her peanuts while holding her passport.


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## IzzyBella

Let's shake it up a bit: any white or emirati men want to be my slave? No benefits...other than my sparkling personality and quick wit.


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## arabianhorse

IzzyBella said:


> Let's shake it up a bit: any white or emirati men want to be my slave? No benefits...other than my sparkling personality and quick wit.


Only if you supply the handcuffs, leather and whip


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## IzzyBella

arabianhorse said:


> Only if you supply the handcuffs, leather and whip


No, that ****'s expensive. Buy your own.


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## Mclovin oo7

IzzyBella said:


> No, that ****'s expensive. Buy your own.


Hard to get in Dubai, not that I am looking for....


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## arabianhorse

Mclovin oo7 said:


> Hard to get in Dubai, not that I am looking for....


You can get the leather gear made to order at the local souk. Some of the ladies lingerie shops sell them as well.

The handcuffs are from Toys R Us 

The battery operated stuff may be a problem though


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## Mclovin oo7

arabianhorse said:


> You can get the leather gear made to order at the local souk. Some of the ladies lingerie shops sell them as well.
> 
> The handcuffs are from Toys R Us
> 
> The battery operated stuff may be a problem though


Funny story...

About 10 years ago, I landed at DXB with few of our friends and one of the female friends was stopped by the custom official and asked to open her luggage. They found the handcuffs, didn't say much but kept the handcuffs.

We were here on a visit.

I guess, if you know people, you can get anything here....


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## RandomDude

Yeah, this is how every serious meeting boils down to, especially all men meetings.

I can only imagine how the Versailles treaty concluded.

Hey guys, lets stop all the war and stuff , did you see the Zeppelin of the chicl serving?


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## Stevesolar

RandomDude said:


> Yeah, this is how every serious meeting boils down to, especially all men meetings.
> 
> I can only imagine how the Versailles treaty concluded.
> 
> Hey guys, lets stop all the war and stuff , did you see the Zeppelin of the chicl serving?


Hello............................................................is there anyone in there?


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## arabianhorse

Stevesolar said:


> Hello............................................................is there anyone in there?


Musta posted on wrong thread.


----------

