# UK overstay- Fiancé VISA refused



## illumeenatey (Oct 10, 2012)

All,
I am new to this website and I am in dire need of expert advice because I have messed up my family life with my actions that were based on false information.

I am a Zambian Citizen and I went to the UK in 1997 on a student Visa. After completing my education, I extended my stay until 31st October 2002. Unfortunately, I decided to overstay after that and did so until I left voluntarily at my expense on the 4th of September 2011. I had overstayed for 9 years.

Annoyingly, I had just made the 14 years required for the long stay VISA (before it was abolished in the new rules). I had met another settled Zambian and we had struck up a good relationship and decided to settle. I was advised that it would be better to go and apply for a fiance VISA from Zambia as overstay would not account against me. I had not seen my family since 1999 so I took up the chance and left. My partner has indfinite leave to remain.

At the time I was leaving, my partner was 5 months pregnant. My family had arranged for a sunstantial amount of funds to be given to me to help my application, it was £32,000.00 in total.

Problems started when I got here. Suddenly, the money was not "available" anymore and I was left stranded. I had resigned from my job in Barclays in the UK when I left so I had no source of funds. I couldn't make the application without funds, I knew I was going to be refused so I took up a job. Months passed until my partner gave birth in the UK. Heartbreaking. I cannot describe the pain. My son now has British citizenship.

Anyway, my family made the money available in June 2012 and I took the chance to pay for my partner and son to come over for a visit. We then promptly sat down and started making preparations for the VISA application.

I launched my application on the 5th of July but there were no available slots at the embassy until the 10th of July and you know what that means. I fell under the new rules. I was called back to the embassy and asked to fill in the new forms and it was scary.

Anyway, 3 days ago, I got a refusal and the ECO stated these reasons. He has given me the ability to appeal.

1) He says they tried to get in touch with my sponsor to confirm that she would accommodate me and they got no response. My sponsor swears she has not received any contact. All mail, email and phone rescords have been checked.

2)He says I took to long to apply for the VISA, I should have applied earlier if my relationship was genuine and subsiting.

3)My partner made an error on bad advice and omitted my name on the birth certificate of our son. Reason being that I had to be there to register my name. Turns out that is not necessarily true. My name could have been added in my absence. The ECO pointed to the fact that my name wasn't on the birth certificate and expressed doubt that he was my son. I had included DNA test results in the application but he just ignored it.

4)The ECO says we did not show evidence that we intend to marry in the UK. My research tells me that We should have made a registry booking. Oh dear.

5)The ECO says our finances, savings totalling £20,000.00 are insufficient. We need £32,860 in savings to qualify.

There it is. I cried when I got the letter. Worst pain ever but I can see that my preparations were poor.

I want to appeal. What can I do? I have the extra money the ECO wants in a separate account, it came to my control in the last couple of weeks. My partner has changed the birth certificate. What can we do to show we want to get married in the UK? Please help me. I am desperate to see my son and fiancee and I only have 28 days to appeal. How do we prove that she did not receive the communication from the ECO?


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## illumeenatey (Oct 10, 2012)

Joppa or anyone,
What is your opinion on my case? Please help me. I just want to know what my chances are. Please.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

illumeenatey said:


> All,
> I am new to this website and I am in dire need of expert advice because I have messed up my family life with my actions that were based on false information.
> 
> I am a Zambian Citizen and I went to the UK in 1997 on a student Visa. After completing my education, I extended my stay until 31st October 2002. Unfortunately, I decided to overstay after that and did so until I left voluntarily at my expense on the 4th of September 2011. I had overstayed for 9 years.
> ...


In your appeal, enclose a letter of invitation from her.



> 2)He says I took to long to apply for the VISA, I should have applied earlier if my relationship was genuine and subsiting.


Legit point I think. Just expalin the circumstances in a covering letter.



> 3)My partner made an error on bad advice and omitted my name on the birth certificate of our son. Reason being that I had to be there to register my name. Turns out that is not necessarily true. My name could have been added in my absence. The ECO pointed to the fact that my name wasn't on the birth certificate and expressed doubt that he was my son. I had included DNA test results in the application but he just ignored it.


They aren't obliged to accept the result of DNA test. She has now added your name, so just send that.



> 4)The ECO says we did not show evidence that we intend to marry in the UK. My research tells me that we should have made a registry booking. Oh dear.


Make an appointment and enclose details.



> 5)The ECO says our finances, savings totalling £20,000.00 are insufficient. We need £32,860 in savings to qualify.


So you are £6744 short of £18600 in terms of income requirement? If so, you have to meet the shortfall through savings.



> There it is. I cried when I got the letter. Worst pain ever but I can see that my preparations were poor.
> 
> I want to appeal. What can I do? I have the extra money the ECO wants in a separate account, it came to my control in the last couple of weeks. My partner has changed the birth certificate. What can we do to show we want to get married in the UK? Please help me. I am desperate to see my son and fiancee and I only have 28 days to appeal. How do we prove that she did not receive the communication from the ECO?


Pay £80 for paper appeal and send in those missing documents. You can't add any new evidence. I don't know about your chances, but you have nothing to lose.


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## illumeenatey (Oct 10, 2012)

Thank you Joppa. What is the difference between the paper appeal and the oral one? My sponsor would like to attend to give her testimony. Would it be better to wait 6 months, gather all the evidence and re-apply? Geez the stress of it all.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

illumeenatey said:


> Thank you Joppa. What is the difference between the paper appeal and the oral one? My sponsor would like to attend to give her testimony. Would it be better to wait 6 months, gather all the evidence and re-apply? Geez the stress of it all.


Paper appeal simply means everything will be decided on the basis of documents you submit, whereas with an oral one you have a chance of addressing the tribunal. It's up to you. Before a formal appeal, every case goes to the ECM of the visa office that processed your application and they can overturn the decision, and if that happens it will be a much quicker affair (in weeks) than the full tribunal (in months).
I would say go for an appeal first (it's not a lot of money) and hope the decison will be overturned by ECM.


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## illumeenatey (Oct 10, 2012)

Joppa,
We have done eveything you suggested. We just have one issue. Our initial application did not meet the financial requirement and my appeal will be serving new evidence which will be ignored as you pointed out. I have looked at human rights, best interest of the child etc and I cannot see any instance that would let the UKBA show discretion or flexibility on the fiancnail requirement. What can I do realistically? I feel like all doors are currently shut in my face. I can argue all the points the ECO used to refuse the VISA except for the money issue. Whatcan I do?


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

illumeenatey said:


> Joppa,
> We have done eveything you suggested. We just have one issue. Our initial application did not meet the financial requirement and my appeal will be serving new evidence which will be ignored as you pointed out. I have looked at human rights, best interest of the child etc and I cannot see any instance that would let the UKBA show discretion or flexibility on the fiancnail requirement. What can I do realistically? I feel like all doors are currently shut in my face. I can argue all the points the ECO used to refuse the VISA except for the money issue. Whatcan I do?


It's true there is no wriggle room for financial requirement. If you don't meet it, you are turned down. And if you are going to present new evidence about finance, that has to be done in a fresh application, as the appeal cannot consider anything other than what you have originally produced (just supplying missing documents etc).
So one way or the other, you have to make a new application to stand any chance of a visa. So think about what you want to do and go from there. Or appeal and see how other points they have raised measure up to aid your new application, but this will delay your migration by seveal months.


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## illumeenatey (Oct 10, 2012)

Just an update, we appealed using a law firm in the UK. My partner attended the tribunal court session on the 10th of this month. I am told the session was brutal with loads of very difficult questions being asked. We are now waiting for the judge to make a decision which is expected anytime soon. It has been 9 months of waiting. I will post an update in the next few days. Wish me luck!


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## kingrulzuk (Jan 19, 2010)

Good luck mate


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## ashconnell (Jun 2, 2013)

All the best with the appeal!sending you positive vibes...


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## illumeenatey (Oct 10, 2012)

Firstly thank you for the good luck messages. I am very thankful that there are people out there who want this thing to work out for us. We still haven't heard from the courts. I have however had some long chats with my partner and she has filled me on on what happened in the tribunal.
I now know are the questions that my partner was being asked in the courtroom. The judge wanted her to prove that our relationship is true and subsisting so she had to show the evidence we had relating to our communication, our time together and my involvement (active involvement) in the life of our little one. 
When I made the application (that was refused), I had included all records from our Skype chats, my mobile phone bills, her mobile phone bills and believe it or not, our WhatsApp chat history! I also had to provide proof that I had every intention to marry so from a traditional aspect, it meant including "receipts" (if you want to call them that) for the dowry payments that I made to her family. I was lucky enough to get into employment so I was sending her (and continue to do so by the way) money on a monthly basis to help out with our son's upkeep (day care is very expensive!). That meant including Western Union receipts and bank transfer receipts.
The home office representative brought up the issue of accommodation and argued that should I be allowed to come back, the current flat my that my partner currently occupies would be inappropriate because it is a one bed flat and the rules only allow 2 people to live in there. That turned out not to be completely correct. Two adults can live there with a child as long as the child is not over a certain height! It will be years before my son gets to that height.
And finally, should the judge rule in our favour, the home office will have 5 days to appeal the decision. I am not sure how often this happens and why they would want to appeal. The waiting and nervousness continues......


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## illumeenatey (Oct 10, 2012)

Update: My partner has just sent me a text which read "The judge has made a decision. I am on my way to see the lawyer now. Will call you with the full details after I speak with the lawyer". I am not sure what to feel.


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## illumeenatey (Oct 10, 2012)

Against all odds, the tribunal judge approved the appeal. Unbelievable!!! The home office now has 5 working days (from the 9th of July 2013) to appeal the decision. I am super excited, there is a great opportunity that I will be reunited with my family soon. Miracles, they do happen. I will post more later.....


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## colchar (Oct 25, 2011)

illumeenatey said:


> 1) He says they tried to get in touch with my sponsor to confirm that she would accommodate me and they got no response. My sponsor swears she has not received any contact. All mail, email and phone rescords have been checked.
> 
> How do we prove that she did not receive the communication from the ECO?



What do you mean phone records have been checked? Phone records do not show a call that was missed. If they called while that person was not home there is no record of it. Or they could have sent a letter which, again, there would be no record of for you to have checked.

And for someone who overstayed by nine years, I am not sure they should be doing anything for you as you have already clearly demonstrated that you are unwilling to follow the law while in Britain.


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## skinnie58 (Apr 3, 2013)

illumeenatey said:


> Against all odds, the tribunal judge approved the appeal. Unbelievable!!! The home office now has 5 working days (from the 9th of July 2013) to appeal the decision. I am super excited, there is a great opportunity that I will be reunited with my family soon. Miracles, they do happen. I will post more later.....


Congratulations illumeenatey, you have been very lucky considering all the obstacles' it gives hope to the rest of us that are appealing against lesser obstacles. Welcome to the UK and make your stay here count.:clap2::clap2:lane:


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## illumeenatey (Oct 10, 2012)

colchar said:


> What do you mean phone records have been checked? Phone records do not show a call that was missed. If they called while that person was not home there is no record of it. Or they could have sent a letter which, again, there would be no record of for you to have checked.
> 
> And for someone who overstayed by nine years, I am not sure they should be doing anything for you as you have already clearly demonstrated that you are unwilling to follow the law while in Britain.


Colchar, the quote you are referring to is very old in the thread. When I wrote that, I was distressed. You have a point about a missed call relating to the phone records. I already know what wrong I did by overstaying. By putting it on the forum, I was in a way acknowledging my mistake and seeking help on how to correct the situation. Be happy for me please.


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## illumeenatey (Oct 10, 2012)

Thank you Skinnie. I cannot celebrate yet. I need to wait and see if the home office will appeal the decision. I pray they don't so I can see my son and partner soon.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2013)

colchar said:


> What do you mean phone records have been checked? Phone records do not show a call that was missed. If they called while that person was not home there is no record of it. Or they could have sent a letter which, again, there would be no record of for you to have checked.
> 
> And for someone who overstayed by nine years, I am not sure they should be doing anything for you as you have already clearly demonstrated that you are unwilling to follow the law while in Britain.


 How about being nice to other posters and not berating their past mistakes. 

They could have stayed illegal in the UK and chose not to. They followed legal process with both a visa application and an appeal which they have won under British Law. 

Congratulations are more in order I think.


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## illumeenatey (Oct 10, 2012)

_shel, thanks for standing up for me. As it turns out, the home office did not appeal. I have just had an email from the Pretoria office asking me to send them my Passport. Thank you guys, for your support. I didn't have much to hang on to but I went with Joppa's advice to just appeal and see what happens. To be truthful, I was expecting a decline was resigned to only seeing my family once a year. I am thankful and very lucky. 
Now I can celebrate!!!


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2013)

:clap2: I am so happy for you x


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## illumeenatey (Oct 10, 2012)

My partner is visiting Zambia and she has brought with her the determination from the judge. It is very detailed and gives justifications as to why I was allowed back. I am not sure whether it is legally correct to share the exact details of the determination. Am I allowed?


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## illumeenatey (Oct 10, 2012)

I need some help please. I am trying to get my mum to attend the wedding in the UK and have been looking at the requirements for the family visitor visa and it looks like she doesn't qualify. It says she has to show that the person she intends to visit is:

1.spouse, civil partner, father, mother, son, daughter, brother or sister;
2.grandfather, grandmother, grandson or granddaughter;
3.spouse or civil partner's father, mother, brother or sister;
4.son or daughter's spouse or civil partner;
5. stepfather, stepmother, stepson, stepdaughter, stepbrother or stepsister; or
6.a person you have been living with in a genuine and subsisting relationship, like marriage or civil partnership, for at least 2 years before the day you apply.

My mum doesn't qualify under these conditions because I am going there to get married. Does that mean she will only qualify under the general visitor category?


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2013)

Hmm to me your partner would qualify under point 4. No you wont be married yet but they are still your spouse and they do recognise such because unmarried people can apply and get spouse visa. 

But, one of the more knowledge posters on UK rules may know different.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Attending a wedding is usually done by a general visit visa.


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## illumeenatey (Oct 10, 2012)

I am now in the UK. As I foresaw, the UK border force stopped me and interrogated me for ages before they let me through
The question I have today is this: After I am given the initial 30 months, how much of it can I spend outside the UK without jeopardising my application for the next 30 months? I bought some land in Zambia and I want to go supervise the construction of a house. Please help.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

There is no exact stipulation but clearly your centre of activity must be UK, where your home is. If you spend the majority of time outside UK, and your absence isn't connected with a UK job or it isn't on compassionate grounds like caring for a sick relative, your renewal may be denied, or you have to extend your initial leave first.


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## illumeenatey (Oct 10, 2012)

Just an update. I got my spouse visa today after applying in January this year. The home office actually refused my application based on my failure to satisfy 6 clauses of the immigration rules but gave me the visa outside the immigration rules. So I am now on the 10 year route to residency.


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## mariag (May 1, 2014)

illumeenatey said:


> Just an update. I got my spouse visa today after applying in January this year. The home office actually refused my application based on my failure to satisfy 6 clauses of the immigration rules but gave me the visa outside the immigration rules. So I am now on the 10 year route to residency.


Hi illumeenatey, so you got your visa and you are with your family now? in the uk?


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## illumeenatey (Oct 10, 2012)

Yes I am. I came in November last year.


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## mariag (May 1, 2014)

illumeenatey said:


> Yes I am. I came in November last year.


Wow that is great, congratulations, is good for who are going to apply know this kind of stories, give us motivation, thanks!!


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## illumeenatey (Oct 10, 2012)

I have to say I have been extremely lucky. The lawyer told me that I was the first person to have won a case similar to mine in a very very long time and my case will be used to argue similar cases in the future. Seeing my family everyday is truly a blessing. My lawyer says for one reason or another, hings justs seemed to fall into place, starting from having an understading judge, the embassy in South Africa making a mistake and giving me the wrong visa which worked in my favour and the home office deciding to award me the visa despite the current court case having not been concluded. I jumped up and hugged my lawyer when she told me. God bless her. She is so passionate about her job. If anyone of you need help, try and contact 

South Manchester Law Centre
584-586 Stockport Road
Manchester
M13 0RQ
01612255111

Good luck. I have had a lot of it.


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## illumeenatey (Oct 10, 2012)

mariag said:


> Hi illumeenatey, so you got your visa and you are with your family now? in the uk?


Yes I am. I cannot tell you how much of a blessing that is. I truly think I had divine powers on my side. I am now even working. It only took me 3 weeks after the VISA was granted to find a job. This is unbelievable.


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