# Struggling lol



## Townfanjon (Jan 2, 2016)

I am still continuing my pathetic atempt at learning spanish but I am realy struggling with the object pronouns ( le , te , les , nos , se etc etc ) when and where to use them etc etc 
Can any of you lovely people help , as much as you possibly can via a forum post 

Thank you in advance


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## stevesainty (Jan 7, 2011)

You use them much as you would in English, they just replace the noun. 

eg. John is my brother, he is older than me. "He" is the direct object pronoun


me = me
te = you
lo or la = him or her (or you formally)

nos = us

los = them or you all

You also use them in reflexive verbs like ducharse, to shower oneself

me ducho por la mañana, I shower in the morning.

I am sure there will be more qualified people along soon to give you more guidance, but don´t get hung up on them, they will come easily with practice.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

stevesainty said:


> You use them much as you would in English, they just replace the noun.
> 
> eg. John is my brother, he is older than me. "He" is the direct object pronoun
> 
> ...


I agree with don't get hung up on them, but you will need to practice a lot before they come easily. Unfortunately in the example given above I can't see any direct object pronouns (but my grammar analysis is not great)
John is my brother, he is older than me = John es mi hermano, es mayor que yo

Here is a full list of direct object pronouns

me (me)
te (you-familiar)
lo, la (him, her, it, you-formal)

nos (us)
os (you-all-familiar)
los, las (them, you-all-formal)

Now you need to use sentences like 
I gave the shop assistant the money
Did I give you the keys?
I always say good morning to my neighbour
Can I ask you a favour?
My children asked me to show them the cat...

Not an easy task!!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Townfanjon said:


> I am still continuing my pathetic atempt at learning spanish but I am realy struggling with the object pronouns ( le , te , les , nos , se etc etc ) when and where to use them etc etc
> Can any of you lovely people help , as much as you possibly can via a forum post
> 
> Thank you in advance


This would be the perfect place for you to ask Spanish for Integration


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I struggled with these too, and found this little book very useful. I go through it every now and again and redo the exercises.

https://www.amazon.es/Practice-Perfect-Spanish-Pronouns-Prepositions/dp/1259586324


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

> eg. John is my brother, he is older than me. "He" is the direct object pronoun





Pesky Wesky said:


> ...Unfortunately in the example given above I can't see any direct object pronouns (but my grammar analysis is not great)
> John is my brother, he is older than me = John es mi hermano, es mayor que yo
> ...


That got me confused - I think (hope) it is 'me' rather than 'he' that is the object pronoun. 

If so I suspect it was a typo. 

Or I'm wrong.

Which is likely.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> That got me confused - I think (hope) it is 'me' rather than 'he' that is the object pronoun.
> 
> If so I suspect it was a typo.
> 
> ...


Surely there is no direct object pronoun in that sentience.

But :

John is my brother. I hate him.

'Him' is the direct object pronoun.


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## stevesainty (Jan 7, 2011)

stevesainty said:


> eg. John is my brother, he is older than me. "He" is the direct object pronoun


Ok, I did say someone with a better idea of grammar would be along but for the record, as I am writing the sentence or speaking everyone knows that the "me" refers to, well, me. 

In the first part of the sentence the noun is "John" and I have substituted "he" for "John" as the "pro noun" in the second part of the sentence.

Or have I been using pronouns incorrectly.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

stevesainty said:


> Ok, I did say someone with a better idea of grammar would be along but for the record, as I am writing the sentence or speaking everyone knows that the "me" refers to, well, me.
> 
> In the first part of the sentence the noun is "John" and I have substituted "he" for "John" as the "pro noun" in the second part of the sentence.
> 
> Or have I been using pronouns incorrectly.


'He' is a pronoun but it is the subject rather than the object.

I think.


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## stevesainty (Jan 7, 2011)

jimenato said:


> 'He' is a pronoun but it is the subject rather than the object.
> 
> I think.


I thought that "me" was the subject as in "my Brother" almost as if "my book", the Brother or the book being the object that is older.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

stevesainty said:


> I thought that "me" was the subject as in "my Brother" almost as if "my book", the Brother or the book being the object that is older.


The sentence has no direct object as it makes a comparison.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> The sentence has no direct object as it makes a comparison.


Yes. The verb TO BE is intransitive - it never has an object.

I believe such a verb is called a COPULA - new word for me - I've learnt something new today.


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## stevesainty (Jan 7, 2011)

mrypg9 said:


> The sentence has no direct object as it makes a comparison.


Which means what exactly?

Instead of coming out with grammar gobbledygook that helps neither the OP nor anyone else who has forgotten all the grammar labels, how about some sample sentences in both English and Spanish please.

That would be more helpful IMHO.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

stevesainty said:


> Which means what exactly?
> 
> Instead of coming out with grammar gobbledygook that helps neither the OP nor anyone else who has forgotten all the grammar labels, how about some sample sentences in both English and Spanish please.
> 
> That would be more helpful IMHO.


If only we knew some language teachers.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> This would be the perfect place for you to ask Spanish for Integration


lol - that group has been archived......

Try this one, set up by three of the language advisors from the other one 

Brush up your Spanish with Las tres Brujitas


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## Townfanjon (Jan 2, 2016)

Many thanks , the group was great for two days lol. Typical I joined it !! 

Another thank you for the link , I didnt think it would be long before another one started .

To anybody else reading , I found a lot of useful videos on you tube .


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## Ifn (Jan 29, 2017)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I agree with don't get hung up on them, but you will need to practice a lot before they come easily. Unfortunately in the example given above I can't see any direct object pronouns (but my grammar analysis is not great)
> John is my brother, he is older than me = John es mi hermano, es mayor que yo
> 
> Here is a full list of direct object pronouns
> ...


Pesky Wesky is on to something. Look at her/his sample sentences.

1. I gave the shop assistant the money
I gave it to the shop assistant (it is the direct object)
I gave the money to her (her is the indirect object)
I gave it to her (in Spanish, indirect object is placed before direct object)
2. I always say good morning to my neighbor 
I always say it to my neighbor 
I always say good morning to her
I always say it to her.
3. Did I give you the keys? Te di las llaves? (Keys are d.o. and you is indirect object)
Did I give them to you? Te las di?
When I practice using direct object pronouns and indirect object pronouns together, I make a list of each of them and put the indirect list ahead of the direct because when both are used, indirect proceeds direct, like in example #3
This is lesson 41 from the Study Spanish site
https://studyspanish.com/grammar/lessons/dopro1
This is a great site because as you see on the left there are a lot of quizzes. Lessons 41 to 47 are about direct and indirect object pronouns. 
Another way you might find helpful is to practice a sentence to use on someone in Spanish in your everyday life.
Ex: Do you have milk? I can’t find it. Where is it? Or Where are they?
Can you explain it to me?
Can you help me?

It’s sooooo hard


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## AntonioMontey (Dec 26, 2017)

*Reflexives and Relatives*

Hello,
I am new here. I just hope I can help.

I am native Spanish and lived for quite a few years in the UK, thing I enjoyed a lot.
Anyway, In my time here since 2001 back I have been amongst other things, teaching kids and adults the Royal Language.
The biggest problem in learning Spanish is the complexity sometimes of the diferent aspects of the language, since some of the structures do not exist as such in English, let´s say for example the subjunctive, or in this case raised the pronouns.
In Spanish there are several types of pronouns: reflexive, demonstratives, relatives..
When we learn the reflexives at school they teach us like a song: me, te, se, nos, os, se . With relatives: le, lo, la, les, los, las. Not an easy task to master, I know.
Examples:
Juan le pegó: Juan hit him
Juan te pegó: Juan hit you
Juan se calló: Juan kept quiet. In this case is intransitive verb. 
Juan nos pegó: Juan hit us
JUan os pegó: Juan hit you (plural)
Juan les pegó: Juan hit them.
I will try to explain more in another ocassion if you like.

Keep learning, it is good to mix with locals. Good luck


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

*UNde*



stevesainty said:


> Which means what exactly?
> 
> Instead of coming out with grammar gobbledygook that helps neither the OP nor anyone else who has forgotten all the grammar labels, how about some sample sentences in both English and Spanish please.
> 
> That would be more helpful IMHO.


I'll tell you what from my thirty year plus experience as a teacher of French and German would be more helpful: chucking away your grammar book and forgoing these pointless practice exercises and joining a Spanish club, watching Spanish tv or listening to Spanish radio or even going to your nearest Spanish bar and starting a conversation.
Why worry about the correct usage of the Spanish subjunctive until your fluency is sufficient to wish to perfect it to that level? Are you confident that you can correctly use the subjunctive in English? Do you know in which contexts it is required?

How do we learn our mother tongue? By listening and imitating. Our first steps in using our mother tongue are hesitant and 'ungrammatical ' but we manage to make our meaning clear. We COMMUNICATE. Language is a tool of communication and like many tools, there are levels of use. I can use a hammer and screwdriver but I'm not at cabinet maker level, nor do I wish to be.

I lived in Poland and Czechoslovakia/ Czech Republic and am sufficiently fluent in these languages to communicate my needs and feelings. I had no lessons, learned by listening and imitstimg, as I learned Spanish. Is my grammar perfect? No way? Do I use the subjunctive correctly? I've no idea. Point is, I communicate. 

Most native English speakers are ungrammatical. You can see that from posts on this Forum. Does it really matter ias long as we understand them? Do native Spanish speakers always speak with correct grammar?

Yesterday I met two Dutch women of Iranian origin who spoke fluent English but with a puzzling American accent. I asked if they had spent time in the States but no, they had learned from CNN and MTV. The most fluent Czech speaker of English I ever met learned in the same way, from tv and oddly the lyrics of country and western songs.

What confuses people learning a foreign language isn't the terminology of grammar, which, if you want to delve into grammar, you need to understand. What puts people of is the focus on grammar which they may never need at the expense of COMMUNICATION which is the prime function of language.
Very few immigrants will ever need to be at the level of Spanish where they need to make speeches about the political crisis in Cataluna. Most just need a decent level of transactional language.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Just to add that from what I have experienced of the teaching English in Spanish schools it is done using methods that went out of date in the UK thirty years ago.

I've no idea how language schools teach Spanish to immigratnts. The proprietor of a small local language school asked me if I would give German classes to Spaniards hoping to work in Germany. The only resources appeared to be a couple of aged books and a few tapes of repetitive phrases.
I wasn't interested.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Townfanjon said:


> Many thanks , the group was great for two days lol. Typical I joined it !!
> 
> Another thank you for the link , I didnt think it would be long before another one started .
> 
> To anybody else reading , I found a lot of useful videos on you tube .


I like this couple's videos... and here's one about pronouns: 




But, I want to say that I agree with mrypg.. communication is the most important thing.

I sent a whatsapp to a friend yesterday and realised today that I'd used the subjunctive where I shouldn't have, but he didn't mention it to me (he never does when I make mistakes) but responded to the question I asked, so clearly understood me perfectly.

I can spend hours in the company of Spanish people speaking nothing but Spanish, and fluently (most of the time) but I would have to be very careful when answering questions about what's the subject, object, direct, indirect etc. 

I'd follow mrypg's advice re clubs, groups, etc.


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## stevesainty (Jan 7, 2011)

Originally Posted by stevesainty 
Which means what exactly?

Instead of coming out with grammar gobbledygook that helps neither the OP nor anyone else who has forgotten all the grammar labels, how about some sample sentences in both English and Spanish please.

That would be more helpful IMHO.






mrypg9 said:


> I'll tell you what from my thirty year plus experience as a teacher of French and German would be more helpful: chucking away your grammar book and forgoing these pointless practice exercises and joining a Spanish club, watching Spanish tv or listening to Spanish radio or even going to your nearest Spanish bar and starting a conversation.
> Why worry about the correct usage of the Spanish subjunctive until your fluency is sufficient to wish to perfect it to that level? Are you confident that you can correctly use the subjunctive in English? Do you know in which contexts it is required?
> 
> How do we learn our mother tongue? By listening and imitating. Our first steps in using our mother tongue are hesitant and 'ungrammatical ' but we manage to make our meaning clear. We COMMUNICATE. Language is a tool of communication and like many tools, there are levels of use. I can use a hammer and screwdriver but I'm not at cabinet maker level, nor do I wish to be.
> ...


Thank you mrypg9, that is without doubt a most undeserving lecture. The op asked for some help, I tried and said that more experienced people would be along soon. You jumped in with a one liner, and that was totally unhelpful for the op, which is why I replied with the above quote.

The only stuff you know about me is gleaned from my posts on here and other forums. Yes, I am learning Spanish and yes I will probably never be fluent, however I do speak Spanish, warts and all, at every available opportunity. I talk to people in queues, at the bus stop, in shops, bars and restaurants. I attend a weekly discussion group where we only speak in Spanish. Even with my pidgin Spanish I can make myself understood and have never needed an interpreter to date, but, and this is a big but, I strive to do better and rarely settle for second best. So when I ask questions on here and other places it is so that I can learn from my mistakes and being bawled out by someone who is normally more patient and understanding is not on.

Now having got that off my chest I am not going to fall out with you mrypg9, because I have been following your posts for many years and greatly admire your sageness. I do not agree with your politics but you do put forward logical and well reasoned arguments for them. I wish you an Sandra well for the coming New Year and hope that Little Azor keeps improving.

Kindest regards

Steve.


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## Ifn (Jan 29, 2017)

stevesainty said:


> Originally Posted by stevesainty
> Which means what exactly?
> 
> Instead of coming out with grammar gobbledygook that helps neither the OP nor anyone else who has forgotten all the grammar labels, how about some sample sentences in both English and Spanish please.
> ...


Good response Steve.
I sort of agree with mrypg9 but some of us just don’t pick up languages that way. I like having a structure of grammar and once I ‘kind of’ grasp it, I do what I suggested: I make up some sentences to use in the real world with real people. Today I had to go to the bank to get them to explain to me how to change my phone number (just got a real spanish phone number). If you change your phone number, you can’t receive the text message to allow you to change your phone number. Someone recently said that spanish bureaucracy wasn’t so bad....HA.
Anyway. I worked out some sentences to say:
“ Acabo de cambiar mi número de teléfono. Ahora no puedo usarlo, porque el Sabadell app no funciona con el nuevo número. “
Maybe part of that isn’t correct but it got me started, gave me some peace of mind and allowed for some further discussion. Let’s call them Helper sentences. 
Imelda


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

stevesainty said:


> Originally Posted by stevesainty
> Which means what exactly?
> 
> Instead of coming out with grammar gobbledygook that helps neither the OP nor anyone else who has forgotten all the grammar labels, how about some sample sentences in both English and Spanish please.
> ...


Lovely post, Steve. Made my day. You are a very kind person. I hope you had a good Christmas and I wish you and your family all the best for the New Year. xxx

Now, it's not easy to convey 'tone' in a post but I wasn't intending a lecture. I feel very strongly about people getting hung up on grammar, being 'correct'. It's inhibiting and for some people, the 'fear' of making mistakes and looking silly prevents them from using what they know.
When I lived in Prague, I taught an English class for professional statisticians at the Czech Statistical Institute. Most were PhDs and all had passed the highest exams in written English....but they couldn't speak. They were afraid of 'making grammar mistakes'. I tried all ways I could think of to get them speaking but to no avail. So one day I went into the classroom and started speaking to them in my bad but fluent Czech instead of the English I always used in lessons. Well, their eyes gaped and their jaws dropped as I mangled their language. After a couple of minutes I stopped and asked 'Did I make mistakes?' Yes, many, was the reply. 'But did you understand me?', I persisted.
'Oh yes', they said. 'Perfectly'.
'Right', said I .'Let's talk English. I'll only stop and correct you when I can't understand you'.
That broke the logjam. They began to talk, gradually gaining more confidence and becoming more 'correct'.
I asked an educated Spanish friend today if all Spaniards spoke correctly. She laughed and said that was not the case at all. As with native English speakers, many Spaniards get tenses wrong, can't use the subjunctive, get noun gender wrong. As a fluent speaker of bad Spanish I find that reassuring.
I learned French for eight years at school. I read Moliere, Balzac, all the 'greats' of French literature - but I didn't lean to speak French until I went to spend time in France. I gradually picked up slang, learned that 'j'aime pas' was more common than the 'correct' je n'aime pas.
We worry too much about speaking Spanish better than many Spaniards

PS Azor is well on the mend. He says thanks for asking about him.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Three years in , I can hold a conversation albeit gender, plural and grammatically incorrect...... basically I can communicate


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Megsmum said:


> Three years in , I can hold a conversation albeit gender, plural and grammatically incorrect...... basically I can communicate


Ten years in, I have forgotten most of the grammar and would probably fail the GCSE exam I got A* in back in 2006. But the most important thing is that I can actually understand what people are saying to me, and can participate in in-depth conversations without slowing everyone else down.

Communication is everything!


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

I agree with the communication posts - but also, grammar is fun.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

_Language pedagogy has come a long way since the days when repetitive grammar-translation methods were regarded as the only way to learn. Today, task-based approaches are widespread in British schools, emphasising communication and the practical uses of language.

For Christelle Bernard, a French and Spanish teacher at St Gemma's High School in Belfast, these methods of teaching allow her to cast aside the textbook whenever she can. "You need a little bit of grammar, but my approach is much more topic based with as little grammar as possible," she explains.
Her task-based teaching embraces ideas which range from lessons using computers, to audio-visual and kinesthetic learning. She explains: "For instance, if I'm teaching pets, I'll bring in soft toys to use in the lessons."
"I hardly ever use a textbook - I use Twitter much more," she says, describing lessons where pupils discuss tweets written in French. "ICT allows them to collaborate with others. So they can work together, but it gives them a choice of medium. And because they know how to use computers, it creates a comfort zone where they can focus on the language."

Task-based learning typically involves an information gap: students may have to share knowledge to communicate effectively, or look for language rules themselves before re-applying them. It's an approach favoured by Huw Jarvis, a senior lecturer in the School of Humanities, Languages and Social Science at the University of Salford. He says: "We know that people learn better when they struggle to communicate - so that needs to be at the core of the kind of delivery and the methodology."

"The primary purpose of language is communication - grammar is important, but there's a bigger picture. Language is no longer seen as being learnt through mechanical exercises, it's developed through students interacting and engaging."_


From a report on current teaching methods, published on The Guardian website.


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## chrisnation (Mar 2, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> I struggled with these too, and found this little book very useful. I go through it every now and again and redo the exercises.
> 
> https://www.amazon.es/Practice-Perfect-Spanish-Pronouns-Prepositions/dp/1259586324


I agree. Doroth Richmond's Spanish language books are excellent, as are the others in the 'Practice Makes Perfect' series. Tho' none of the ones I have are 'little' - meaty tomes bigger than A4, mine.
_
If only I did more practice!_

Handy hint: These books have pages for exercises. If you write your answers in the pages provided for them, you will not be able to revise without your previous answers giving you a crib - or at least letting you know you got the answer wrong. I tried with pencil at first but even rubbing out my first round of answers didn't hide them. So I do the exercises on a separate sheet.


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