# Purchasing a home with incorrect land documents showing less land?



## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

Hi, I was considering making an offer on a home. When researching the property and trying to check the numbers to ascertain market value I came across a large error in terrain. There are 2 parcels and the official land documents for them claim there is about 800m2 of land, however the amount of land is actually about 1300m2. I have not actually seen the documents yet, but the realtor looked it up and they show only 800m2 total. The house is about 40 years old (I think, I am still waiting for the exact date of construction of the original house and I know that built an addition less than 20 years ago) and the seller is clearly occupying about 1300m2 of land.

My questions would be how difficult it would be to have the error fixed? I asked them to see the actual documents, I am hoping the property has a description including bearings and distances but I am unsure about Portuguese land deeds.

A scene from "Under the Tuscan Sun" comes to mind (where the deed describes the land as enough land for 2 oxen to graze in a day), so I am also curious as to laws here pertaining to adverse possession (when someone occupies and maintains property over a certain amount of time with the belief that they own the property). I know in the USA if you occupy land for 20+ years and you believe you own the land then you have the right to claim that land. I am not trying to steal someone else's and, my assumption right now was that a mistake was made by the original land surveyor.

Assuming a mistake was made on the documents what would be involved with getting the issue fixed? Would an attorney need to be involved? Would this need to go to court if no one else was claiming title to the land? Would it be expensive or take a long time navigating the bureaucracy here?

Hopefully I will be able to read the documents (if they have them) and try to determine where the error was made, but I have yet to see a Portuguese land document. I worked as a land surveyor in the USA for a very long time so I am familiar with reading deeds and fixing boundary line disputes there.

Thank you.


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## Stevesolar (Dec 21, 2012)

Hi,
I don’t know specific rules in Portugal - but my advice applies to property in almost any country.
Let the seller correct any mistakes, get all the paperwork in order - then proceed with the purchase (after your solicitor has confirmed everything is in order).
Its not for you to correct the mistakes - or assume that you would be able to correct them after purchase.
Defective title could land you will all sorts of problems going forward.
Cheers
Steve


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

Yes, I understand your point. The thing is I could make a lower offer based upon the actual titled land and then I can decide if I want to try to have the documents altered later. It is possible with the error in title that a bank will not give a loan for the property, which will drop it's value further. I already know one thing about Portugal, and that is it takes forever to fix anything. I cannot wait for them to fix the title, I either need to buy soon or walk away.

If this was in the USA it would not be as much of a concern. For one thing we have title insurance there, so anything I buy is insured to remain mine. The house is pre-existing for more than 20 years and occupied, so there is no chance it can be in violation and need to be removed. So the only issue would be the excess land that no one else appears to be claiming.

Hopefully they will send the documents and then I can try to figure out the error. I understand the risk, but perhaps the house might be a bargain for a cash buyer who is willing to do the work.


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## Stevesolar (Dec 21, 2012)

Hi,
You could - but I think it is very risky - who is to say that even the current documents are correct?
Be interesting to see if you get any responses from members with more knowledge of specific Portuguese property law - as my advice is purely generic (‘but has stood me in good stead over the years!)
Cheers
Steve


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

Well that is where the adverse possession law comes into effect. I already know the current documents are not correct, or at least one of them. There are 2 parcels, so perhaps the error lies in only one parcel. I suspect the error is in the parcel which includes the house though. Perhaps it was an error calculating the square meters and not an error for boundary lines. When a document is found to be in error the law usually looks for the intent of the author. What property did the author intend to convey but made a mistake in the description, and does that interfere with a neighboring properties title? There is a saying that possession is 9/10 of the law. Even when documents are in error (in the USA) uncontested possession over a period of time (usually 20 years) becomes the deciding factor in most cases.

The amount of risk is determined by a possible contest for the land. I do not see much evidence to support someone contesting the land ownership. The other question is where is the house in regards to the documented boundary. The house is the main concern, not the land. The land does not have too much value, except that it supports the house. There is no neighbor that appears to be challenging the boundary lines, there are walls and fences erected and there appears to be no active dispute. The house has been there for probably 40 years uncontested, and they even had a second floor added less than 20 years ago which I assume was permitted by the municipality.

If there is no risk of losing title to the land under the house (and thus the house itself) then the property has value even with defective title. If this house was in the USA I would think there would be only a small risk of losing some contested land. Possession is 9/10 of the law, so the risk would only be 10%. But how does possession factor in with Portuguese real estate? That is probably the big question here.


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

I just read that there is no title insurance in Portugal. In the USA when you buy a house you can purchase title insurance that covers you for any losses of title during your entire lifetime. The real estate market here is really screwed up.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

John and Cecil said:


> however the amount of land is actually about 1300m2


What does this mean? 

Assume the paperwork is correct. It's hard to say what may be happening. But it could be part of the land is actually town land. It maybe part of the road. It maybe owned by the same owner under different paperwork. It may be the property was divided for some reason.

Is the current owner actually using the extra 500 m2? Have they put up a fence? Or building? Or is it just next to the property you're looking at?


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

NickZ said:


> What does this mean?
> 
> Assume the paperwork is correct. It's hard to say what may be happening. But it could be part of the land is actually town land. It maybe part of the road. It maybe owned by the same owner under different paperwork. It may be the property was divided for some reason.
> 
> Is the current owner actually using the extra 500 m2? Have they put up a fence? Or building? Or is it just next to the property you're looking at?


Yes I do not know. They sent me the land documents (Cadernetas) and they are a joke. There are no metes and bounds descriptions. One is rustic and the other urban. They just show square meters of land for the entire description. The 2 parcels add up to about 800m2 but google earth shows the area the seller claims is there property at about 1300m2. The problem cannot be the street (municipal) property, otherwise the road would be unusually wide and then the house would be encroaching on the street. 

Perhaps they do own a third parcel, or maybe they think they do and someone never noticed. If the land documents had a metes and bound description then perhaps it would be possible to tell, but they only show measurements in square meters. I think there may be another parcel that they either own or believe they own. Perhaps there is another document that I need to see, like a property deed? There are a lot of walls on the property, it is terraced. It appears at one time to have been 2 individual properties at one time because there are 2 separate gate entrances on different roads. There are a lot of walls but the 1300m2 is fenced in and they are occupying the land.

I am going to write the realtor again, perhaps it will jar something loose from the seller's memory. The realtor claims that it cannot be sold without it being corrected before the sale, so the point may be mute. Who knows how long it will take them to fix this, the house has been up for sale for a long time so it is hard to believe I am the first person to discover this error. But I need to see a description of the metes and bounds of the property and not just some land registry document showing land area numbers. That is ridiculous, especially in a country that does not offer title insurance. I think I am starting to understand WHY they do not offer title insurance here, especially if land registry documents do not contain metes and bounds / bearings and distances for property boundaries.


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## Strontium (Sep 16, 2015)

Hi,
Just my own opinion...
Portugal is NOT the US of A so if you cannot deal with the admin here then ..............
Probably 10% difference between the total land area of PT and the total of all the PT land on paperwork.
Get copy of paperwork.
If you want to buy and if you think there's an issue get it written in the Promissory "article **** area to be updated before sale".
Often there are marker stones on overgrown boundaries but need lookin for after years of neglect.


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

Strontium said:


> Hi,
> Just my own opinion...
> Portugal is NOT the US of A so if you cannot deal with the admin here then ..............
> Probably 10% difference between the total land area of PT and the total of all the PT land on paperwork.
> ...


Well these sellers claim they own almost double the land that the legal records claim. However I am not sure how anyone will even know about marker stones, monuments, capped pipes and rebars, etc when the land registry documents only show a street address and the total amount of land in square meters. To make a marker stone legally valid it needs to be referenced in a legal document or on a map, otherwise it is just a rock...


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## vianina (Feb 25, 2020)

You may be able to find plot boundaries in the Cadastro Geométrico.


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

vianina said:


> You may be able to find plot boundaries in the Cadastro Geométrico.


Thank you, a little geometry would be nice.  The documents they have provided so far are more like basic tax documents which only show the amount of land. The realtor claims the sellers had no reason to try to fix the problem. I will ask the realtor if he responds back about the Cadastro Geometrico, however my last email asked him if the sellers really expect someone to go into contract and wait for months to possibly find out if they can fix the land problem and find out how much land they actually own. When realtors do not like the question (or rather the answer) they will often just disappear.


It is amazing how bad the real estate market is here. At least half the realtors I talk to explain they are all pushing to adopt the American real estate system here. Some are even contemplating moving to America to sell real estate there instead. I can only imagine how many people decide to not buy property here because of all the major issues that no one seems to want to acknowledge or correct (hidden sales prices, no mandatory commission splitting and no lock boxes (any agency should be able to show any house), home addresses concealed until after appointment is made (I am still waiting for a realtor to suggest blindfolding me before driving me to a house), no title insurance to protect a buyer's investment, possible hidden loans or encumbrances on property, a possible countrywide defect with land descriptions and land title, etc, etc. It is truly incredible.

Portugal is a beautiful country, but buying a house here is a nightmare.


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## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

John and Cecil said:


> Thank you, a little geometry would be nice.  The documents they have provided so far are more like basic tax documents which only show the amount of land. The realtor claims the sellers had no reason to try to fix the problem. I will ask the realtor if he responds back about the Cadastro Geometrico, however my last email asked him if the sellers really expect someone to go into contract and wait for months to possibly find out if they can fix the land problem and find out how much land they actually own. When realtors do not like the question (or rather the answer) they will often just disappear.
> 
> 
> It is amazing how bad the real estate market is here. At least half the realtors I talk to explain they are all pushing to adopt the American real estate system here. Some are even contemplating moving to America to sell real estate there instead. I can only imagine how many people decide to not buy property here because of all the major issues that no one seems to want to acknowledge or correct (hidden sales prices, no mandatory commission splitting and no lock boxes (any agency should be able to show any house), home addresses concealed until after appointment is made (I am still waiting for a realtor to suggest blindfolding me before driving me to a house), no title insurance to protect a buyer's investment, possible hidden loans or encumbrances on property, a possible countrywide defect with land descriptions and land title, etc, etc. It is truly incredible.
> ...


It could be worse, you could be in Greece. They don't even have a land registry, at least not nation wide, just little patches with land information here and there.

How about renting?


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

Yikes, no mandatory land registration.  That is like over 100 years in the past. I am surprised the EU does not have rules about mandatory land registries, open and transparent real estate markets, etc for the countries using the euro currency.

I am probably still going to buy a home but it is going to be more difficult and take more research. Long term renting is problematic as I would like a small farm / orchard. Perhaps it may be best to get a loan and risk the bank's money to buy a house here, especially if the loan is tied to the property and not to the purchaser. I guess that is something else I should research. Another thing I will miss here is escrow, they make house closings fast and easy.


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## Tellus (Nov 24, 2013)

Hi, AFAIK buying property in Pt. can be a nightmare.
Know a couple who did it just a year ago near Castelo Branco, about 2ha plot.
Best you can do get in contact with a lawyer because he knows how to act. The couple had to get in contact with at least 7 owner from all over the world, a community of heirs and 12 times of signing. So the lawyer did the job.
The lawyer knows how to talk with Camara, Tax office and Land registry, and all can get different data.
Only after the on-site inspection with some heirs could the exact boundary line be determined.

If you want to get an off grid plot with house at River / Algarve PM me.


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## John and Cecil (Dec 22, 2019)

Tellus said:


> Hi, AFAIK buying property in Pt. can be a nightmare.
> Know a couple who did it just a year ago near Castelo Branco, about 2ha plot.
> Best you can do get in contact with a lawyer because he knows how to act. The couple had to get in contact with at least 7 owner from all over the world, a community of heirs and 12 times of signing. So the lawyer did the job.
> The lawyer knows how to talk with Camara, Tax office and Land registry, and all can get different data.
> ...


Thank you, that is crazy! I have been spoiled with title insurance for my entire life, and I also spent many years working as a land surveyor. I am trying to move to Northern Portugal though, I have yet to even see the Algarve region. 

I am probably going to pass on the house with the land issues since the house has been up for sale for at least 2.5 years and the seller hasn't tried to correct the problem. One would think they would fix the problem first and then try to sell the house.


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## Strontium (Sep 16, 2015)

From experience.
There a vast number of properties listed for sale - some of these are not for sale - sellers often will not have updated the paperwork when listing, they may update the paperwork when a sale is probable (why would they spend money when not necessary?), Each lawyer has their own way of working and they, like the agents, differ in what they advise and do. Mainly Portugal admin is person centered so varies from person/place/office/area/time of day. You can bang your head against a brick wall and whinge or accept the variability and so get on with your life.


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## TonyJ1 (May 20, 2014)

Tellus said:


> Hi, AFAIK buying property in Pt. can be a nightmare.
> Know a couple who did it just a year ago near Castelo Branco, about 2ha plot.
> Best you can do get in contact with a lawyer because he knows how to act. The couple had to get in contact with at least 7 owner from all over the world, a community of heirs and 12 times of signing. So the lawyer did the job.
> The lawyer knows how to talk with Camara, Tax office and Land registry, and all can get different data.
> ...


In this particular case the seller did not have full title ie you were in fact dealing with 7 owners dispersed all over the world (in your own words). If the seller has full title, then property transactions are smooth.


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