# Qualifications!



## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

They're very overated you know! And with standards as they are now.....I'd say virtually worthless.

Case in point.....my youngest son Scott who's 18....he was named after Bon actually.

Terrible dyslexia all his life, schools initially told us he was disruptive as they hadn't diagnosed it. I remember when he got suspended from junior school aged 9 for mooning at the dinner lady! 

Anyway.....he came here at 14....tried one week in school and that was it. He then spent his time on the computer and went out of his way to learn.....anything and everything.

Because of his dyslexia he has a very heightened artistic talent so he specifically threw himself into that area. Now.....as I've mentioned before he has his own business subcontracting for various worldwide design houses.

But that work got noticed......and he seems to have found a nice market in designing forum templates for the music industry. Well a few months ago he did the Busted site, then he did Michael Buble.....and yesterday he was contacted by the management team of Marti Pellow......who told them he ONLY wanted Scott for the gig and nobody else!

So he's doing great.....and he did it all himself after the system had written him off.

So while he does webwork for giants of the music industry....I'm stuck at the opposite end of the market with the likes of Stravinsky, Tallbob, and an army of bloody Estate Agents!


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## Hombre (Sep 10, 2009)

XTreme said:


> They're very overated you know! And with standards as they are now.....I'd say virtually worthless.
> 
> Case in point.....my youngest son Scott who's 18....he was named after Bon actually.
> 
> ...


Your boy did good X.....and your still here !!!:clap2:


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

XTreme said:


> They're very overated you know! And with standards as they are now.....I'd say virtually worthless.
> 
> Case in point.....my youngest son Scott who's 18....he was named after Bon actually.
> 
> ...


They do say that kids with supposed "Dyslexia" make it better without the assistance of qualifications and have a far more entrepenarial skills and succeed!

Good on him, keep on the right side of him and he may employ you one day!!!!!

Jo xxx


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## XTreme (May 17, 2008)

Maybe he'll give me a gig taking the trolleys back?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

You are spot-on - most qualifications are so dumbed-down these days they're worth less than the paper they're written on.
Most people I know who are employers of graduates don't look so much at the class of the degree but at the University it came from. Even that isn't always a guide to quality but you can be reasonably sure that a degree from London or Durham Universities, say, will be better than one from one of the former polys who seem to admit anyone with a pen and a pulse. An Oxbridge degree speaks for itself.
As for GCSEs -don't get me started. Having spent part of my professional life in education I know at first-hand how pathetically easy most exam papers are, at all levels. Just compare an A -level paper in any subject from, say, 2008 with a paper in the same subject from twenty years ago. State school standards are definitely falling, both in academic attainment and behaviour.
The public school system is no better, it seems. My grandson has had an expensive education at one of the so-called 'better' public schools but he recently rang his dad in Spain to ask which side of a ruler was centimetres and which inches.:eyebrows: Unbelievable. And he's hoping for a Uni place next year.....
No wonder we're going to the dogs.
This may sound like a rant from a grumpy old woman but I got my degrees in the days when they had to be worked for and meant something and it really p****s me off to read the ill-spelt and poorly constructed letters and reports spewed out by many so-called graduates these days. Many seem to be functionally illiterate and innumerate. I've read that some 'universities' have to provide basic literacy and numeracy courses for their first year students.
Your son is a good example of how our education system is failing the truly talented. Congratulations to him for doing so well and metaphorically raising two fingers to the system.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Not the same, but related, I also know one or two people who did really badly at school, left early and then decided to study later on after they'd had a taste of the real world. This can work out really well in the end, but may cause a lot of wear and tear on family relationships.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

My BIL is a classic example, useless at school, failed his 11+. left school at 15 with a CSE in woodwork and started a job as a tea boy for a building society, but he worked hard and gave 110% to everything he did. Forty years on, he's just about to retire from his job as a manging director of a multi national company and has a very comfortable and happy life!!!

Jo xxx


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## Hombre (Sep 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> My BIL is a classic example, useless at school, failed his 11+. left school at 15 with a CSE in woodwork and started a job as a tea boy for a building society, but he worked hard and gave 110% to everything he did. Forty years on, he's just about to retire from his job as a manging director of a multi national company and has a very comfortable and happy life!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Goes to prove that it doesn't matter what your background or your circumstances are, with dedication and hard work you can achieve far beyond what you think you are capable of.


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## Biscombe (Sep 8, 2009)

Initiative is better than qualifications any day! well done that boy!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

XTreme said:


> They're very overated you know! And with standards as they are now.....I'd say virtually worthless.
> 
> Case in point.....my youngest son Scott who's 18....he was named after Bon actually.
> 
> ...


Quote from a fairly old article from _*The Economist*_ called _*Know Future*_. I don't have access to the whole thing...

Where years of education, training and experience were once necessary to succeed, now they are increasingly seen as irrelevant, even a liability. This trend is already showing up in teenagers with self taught technical skills. They know that they will never again be as quick learning and full of energy as they are now. These young programmers are starting to question the point of university. 

I think the idea of university as training for the working world is changing or maybe has already changed. I think of university as a place where you *might* get training for future employment or it could be "merely" an intellectual exercise.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I think the idea of university as training for the working world is changing or maybe has already changed. I think of university as a place where you *might* get training for future employment or it could be "merely" an intellectual exercise.


Except for those professions for which a university degree is a requirement. Today it was announced that nursing is going to be a degree profession from 2013, phasing out the diploma route taken by many.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Joppa said:


> Except for those professions for which a university degree is a requirement. Today it was announced that nursing is going to be a degree profession from 2013, phasing out the diploma route taken by many.



What a tragedy. I know so many good nurses who couldnt or wouldnt want to go to uni! The government need to re think that one fast, or they'll find that the good nuses will be the poorly paid "auxillaries" and the bad ones will be the uni grads who dont give a fig about caring!! What I'm saying is it'll cause a two tier system again


Jo xxx


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

jojo said:


> What a tragedy. I know so many good nurses who couldnt or wouldnt want to go to uni! The government need to re think that one fast, or they'll find that the good nuses will be the poorly paid "auxillaries" and the bad ones will be the uni grads who dont give a fig about caring!! What I'm saying is it'll cause a two tier system again.


It was as a result of recommendation from Nursing and Midwifery Council, who is concerned about raising the professonal status of nurses. Many more professions have become degree-only entry, such as teaching (from 80s) and social work (a year or two ago). 
I don't think you can generalise about degree-educated nurses (my daughter is one!), but I'm afraid in times of recession, people get drawn to degree or postgraduate courses that offer generous bursaries and other financial incentives.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Joppa said:


> jojo said:
> 
> 
> > What a tragedy. I know so many good nurses who couldnt or wouldnt want to go to uni! The government need to re think that one fast, or they'll find that the good nuses will be the poorly paid "auxillaries" and the bad ones will be the uni grads who dont give a fig about caring!! What I'm saying is it'll cause a two tier system again
> ...


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

jojo said:


> Joppa said:
> 
> 
> > As it happens I was a nurse in the UK too and I went to UNI. And Uni didnt help me at all when it came to caring for poeple and looking after them!!
> ...


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Just a thought, did it say whether that applies to foreign nurses who simply come over here to - well nurse??

Jo xxx


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

jojo said:


> Just a thought, did it say whether that applies to foreign nurses who simply come over here to - well nurse??


I don't know, but here is the press release from NMC:
Nursing & Midwifery Council - NMC confirms date that new pre-registration nursing education programmes will be introduced across the UK

And from DOH:
Nursing set to become all graduate entry by 2013 : Department of Health - News

There will be a public consultation from January 2010 till April, so you'll have a chance to voice your opinion!

As for foreign nurses, because of EU regulations, those from EU/EEA will be able to register without further training or assessment, regardless of level of qualification. And from those outside EU, I'd imagine that their qualification will be scrutinised to see if it meets our new national standards.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Joppa said:


> There will be a public consultation from January 2010 till April, so you'll have a chance to voice your opinion!


Oh thats alright then, like they always listen to me LOL

Jo xxx


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## fourgotospain (May 4, 2009)

So are the Gov. going to totally fund these degree courses? Or are the highly educated nurses then going to carry £20K+ of debt into one of the worst paid professions in the UK? Or will they all turn to agency/bank nursing and finally bankrupt the NHS? Oh will someone think these things through...


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

That is something we need to wait and see. Currently, those who do a diploma get a larger bursary than those who opt for a degree (£2346 to £3392 for 2009/10 for degree students, subject to income assessment). Degree students are also eligible for usual student support, such as grant (non-repayable) and loan (repayable), which depends on household income. Under the new graduate-entry nursing education programme, I'd expect the level of NHS bursary to be set at a similar level to that which is currently given to diploma students (£6701 to £7827 per year for 2009/10, non income-assessed), all tuition fees paid plus entitlement to usual student financial support, with some restrictions.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

fourgotospain said:


> So are the Gov. going to totally fund these degree courses? Or are the highly educated nurses then going to carry £20K+ of debt into one of the worst paid professions in the UK? Or will they all turn to agency/bank nursing and finally bankrupt the NHS? Oh will someone think these things through...


THINK THINGS THROUGH???? er......... we're talking about the British government arent we????

I personally have never heard such total rubbish in all my life, Universities are already struggling! You'll need a degree to wait on tables next!! Any fool will tell you that out of all the professions, nursing is the one where experience and caring count for far more than being able to stick uni for 3 years and come out with a degree!

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> THINK THINGS THROUGH???? er......... we're talking about the British government arent we????
> 
> Well, I've never been in hospital and no nothing about nursing but a friend, a lady in her fifties,who is a very experienced degree-less nurse compains constantly about the standard of younger nurses with degrees. She says they may be more qualified on paper but are less caring and many see nursing not as a vocation but as a temporary job before moving on to something with better pay and prospects and less hard work.
> That may be an isolated opinion, I don't know, but I do know a bit about teaching, having monitored and inspected teachers as well as having myself taught MFL to students up to age eighteen.
> ...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> What a tragedy. I know so many good nurses who couldnt or wouldnt want to go to uni! The government need to re think that one fast, or they'll find that the good nuses will be the poorly paid "auxillaries" and the bad ones will be the uni grads who dont give a fig about caring!! What I'm saying is it'll cause a two tier system again
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Jo, could you tell me what you mean? What two tier system and why again?
(Not blond, but fast becoming grey...)


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## Expat Steve (Oct 23, 2009)

Sorry I am so late into this topic and that I won't be commenting on the nursing qualification aspects, but moreso on the original theme of the post, as it is dear to my heart. 

I am not qualified. That said after a career in the banking & finance industry of 19 years where I became one of the youngest managers ever (in that bank), despite refusing to study the banking exams, I did ok. For 17 years since leaving that industry I have consulted to some of the biggest companies in UK, Europe and the world. I have also previously been a director of a world leading manufacturing company for 10 years. 

Most recently I undertook an assignment in the UAE where I was invited, shortly after arriving, to become my client's CEO. I accepted the invitation. The bizarre part of all this that in UAE one is not permitted to become a CEO or director unless one has a degree. I was the least qualified in the company - even my then secretary/receptionist has a degree! My via was therefore marked showing me to be an 'Archives Clerk'...my findings were such that despite the degrees, not many of my 125 staff had any common sense or worldly knowledge, understanding of communication nor entrepeneurial initiative. Within the company I had 20 different nationalities and cultures with which to contend. I was also ware that in the Asian market, degrees are given out like confetti, the Arab locals, bless them, would buy their degrees in University. (One class were aghast when a friend of mine went in as a new professor and told them that they couldn't buy their degree for his course!). 

Where does this leave uni candidates from the UK or anywhere else? Well, sure their degrees are considered far stronger and respectful than those of other nations, but when you are competing for jobs in a marlket such as the Middle East where people buy on price and not necessarily quality it makes it a tough marketplace.

Interestingly, when I refused to undertake my banking exams it was due to the following: 
When one sought a promotion the HR people would say "Ah, we can't promote you because you don't have your banking exams" For those who had the banking exams they ould say "Ah, we can't promote you because you don't have the experience" (because you've been out of the office doing your banking studies each week).

Apart from my consultancy I have 3 other businesses and am completely self taught. Common sense, hard work and a huge appetitie to learn, has never failed me. If I fail in life it isn't due to not securing qualifications.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Jo, could you tell me what you mean? What two tier system and why again?
> (Not blond, but fast becoming grey...)



Expat Steve, kinda said it with the banking analogy. The "two tier" system simply means that those who dont have the degree will start working while the others are studying and they will be paid a pittance (no qualifications you see!!). These workers will have a wealth of experience and knowledge and then, in come the graduates, who will command high salaries and walk in without experience or knowledge and ride on the backs of those who've been there forever and still earning a pittance! So you have two tiers; 1/ the workers who earn very little and 2/ the graduates, who will probably do very litte "manual work" or have the wealth of experience (essential IMO for this type of work), but command high salaries!


Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> Expat Steve, kinda said it with the banking analogy. The "two tier" system simply means that those who dont have the degree will start working while the others are studying and they will be paid a pittance (no qualifications you see!!). These workers will have a wealth of experience and knowledge and then, in come the graduates, who will command high salaries and walk in without experience or knowledge and ride on the backs of those who've been there forever and still earning a pittance! So you have two tiers; 1/ the workers who earn very little and 2/ the graduates, who will probably do very litte "manual work" or have the wealth of experience (essential IMO for this type of work), but command high salaries!
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Thanks Jo, all is clear now.
Very interesting posts in this thread...


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I personally think that qualifications are grossly overated. Some professions need them, but not all. Academic abilities dont translate to manual abilites very well IMO and some of the most successful people I know, were hopeless at school and in contrast some of the most academically bright people I know are niether successful or happy!

Experience and a flare is the best criteria for whatever employment people choose. Its a shame that apprenticeships and work experience are no longer promoted as the way forward. Going into further education/college/university seems to be forced upon our kids these days as if its a guarrantee - it isnt, its expensive to both the student and the country. There are so many kids who really wont benefit! I'll bet we all know of someone who's been to uni and is now NOT doing any better than their peers who didnt, my older daughters work with several post grads, earning the same, but without the student loans to pay off!!

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Expat Steve said:


> Sorry I am so late into this topic and that I won't be commenting on the nursing qualification aspects, but moreso on the original theme of the post, as it is dear to my heart.
> 
> I am not qualified. That said after a career in the banking & finance industry of 19 years where I became one of the youngest managers ever (in that bank), despite refusing to study the banking exams, I did ok. For 17 years since leaving that industry I have consulted to some of the biggest companies in UK, Europe and the world. I have also previously been a director of a world leading manufacturing company for 10 years.
> 
> ...


Much the same happened with my son. He took a sandwich course at London Uni and worked the 'sandwich' part at a leading City bank. At the end of the year he was offered a permanent post and told that possession of a degree wouldn't further his career.
After a few years working for that bank he left and formed his own consultancy. He was then offered a job with another arm of that bank as core staff in a European position. He is an IT specialist and is earning what his father, a socialist-minded type, refers to as an 'obscene' salary. Certainly enough to be able to live in a large house in stockbroker Surrey with an Aston Martin and other cars in the drive, plus the house here in Spain.
I was appalled when he said he would not be returning to University and told him he would get nowhere without a degree.....I have two degrees and have never in my life earned half the amount he receives, what with bonuses and other 'free' benefits such as BUPA etc.
Interestingly, his wife, who was a teacher and taught for a while in Saudi, left teaching and took a TOPS course in computing. She too works in the City, for private Swiss banks and is a high earner but she would have been in the same position without her degree as like you, Steve, she and my son too have skills, intelligence, determination and the other qualities you don't get degrees in but which help you get on in life.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> Its a shame that apprenticeships and work experience are no longer promoted as the way forward. Jo xxx


Oh how true......We had four apprentices at any one time as we were aware of the shortage of qualified people in our trade. No other Company in our area offered apprenticeships, which I thought scandalous. They were content to try and 'poach' the people we trained.
No wonder we lag behind countries such as Germany.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> I personally think that qualifications are grossly overated. Some professions need them, but not all. Academic abilities dont translate to manual abilites very well IMO and some of the most successful people I know, were hopeless at school and in contrast some of the most academically bright people I know are niether successful or happy!
> 
> Experience and a flare is the best criteria for whatever employment people choose. Its a shame that apprenticeships and work experience are no longer promoted as the way forward. Going into further education/college/university seems to be forced upon our kids these days as if its a guarrantee - it isnt, its expensive to both the student and the country. There are so many kids who really wont benefit! I'll bet we all know of someone who's been to uni and is now NOT doing any better than their peers who didnt, my older daughters work with several post grads, earning the same, but without the student loans to pay off!!
> 
> Jo xxx


I agree that many young people are pushed towards a uni degree as the only way forward and for many the degree will not help them be successful in their working life as many degrees are totally divorced from real life. However I think a degree is an opportunity to learn for the sake of learning. For me it's not only a way of preparing yourself for the world of work. 
On the other hand, work experience does exist on a limited amount of courses in "Formación Profesional" My husband teaches courses that require several months work experience and has to organise it. He always says it's the most valuble part of their course and there's a before and after with work experience. The students grow and mature in the few months that they're "out there".
Unfortunately "Formación Profesional" isn't seen in a very positive light here and people seem to be still very caught up in the idea that university gives your more status; that FP is only for the thickos who can't get into uni. My OH says that FP is like the first couple of years at uni as far as level is concerned and is usually far more geared to actually working.
The government have had a few campaigns to encourage people to sign up for FP courses, but usually f*ck it up by putting the ad out when the registration period has already finished etc...


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I agree that many young people are pushed towards a uni degree as the only way forward and for many the degree will not help them be successful in their working life as many degrees are totally divorced from real life. However I think a degree is an opportunity to learn for the sake of learning. For me it's not only a way of preparing yourself for the world of work.
> On the other hand, work experience does exist on a limited amount of courses in "Formación Profesional" My husband teaches courses that require several months work experience and has to organise it. He always says it's the most valuble part of their course and there's a before and after with work experience. The students grow and mature in the few months that they're "out there".
> Unfortunately "Formación Profesional" isn't seen in a very positive light here and people seem to be still very caught up in the idea that university gives your more status; that FP is only for the thickos who can't get into uni. My OH says that FP is like the first couple of years at uni as far as level is concerned and is usually far more geared to actually working.
> The government have had a few campaigns to encourage people to sign up for FP courses, but usually f*ck it up by putting the ad out when the registration period has already finished etc...


Its the same in the UK, vocational courses, apprenticeships with college day release are for those too thick to go to uni - They really shouldnt put these opportunities down. They're just as vital in a supposedly "equal opportunity" world and should be praised and encouraged as such! Heck, what would the world be like without any plumbers, car mechanics (OR NURSES) and you shouldnt have to waste valuable time, experience and "on the job training" by goiing to uni for three years, especially if you're not academically inclined - not to mention how much these people would have to eventually charge so as to pay off their student loans!

Jo xx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> Its the same in the UK, vocational courses, apprenticeships with college day release are for those too thick to go to uni - They really shouldnt put these opportunities down. They're just as vital in a supposedly "equal opportunity" world and should be praised and encouraged as such! Heck, what would the world be like without any plumbers, car mechanics (OR NURSES) and you shouldnt have to waste valuable time, experience and "on the job training" by goiing to uni for three years, especially if you're not academically inclined - not to mention how much these people would have to eventually charge so as to pay off their student loans!
> 
> Jo xx


exactly, we really need well qualified, I-know-what-I'm-doing type electricians mechanics etc although the work experience that I was reffering to is office work as OH teaches business studies having done the opposite to another posters son's wife. OH worked in a multinational for years and left with a great compensation package when they downsized and became a teacher. What I mean is FP isn't only for manual workers


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I think I would have got more out of my time at University if I had done it now instead of when I was younger. When you are young you don't always appreciate what a privilege it is to be able to study a subject you've chosen for three or four years.
Now, decades later and having done quite a few different things in life, I think I would understand so much more and be able to add my own life experiences to help me go deeper into what I was learning.
I wish we had a Government able to afford giving every person over, say forty, the chance to spend a year studying whatever they chose.
A very vain hope.....


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## Expat Steve (Oct 23, 2009)

There was a certain sort of irony involved with this. Before I left the banking industry I asked the HR dept to transfer me to their staff training college to teach sales training. They refused on the grounds that I 'wasn't qualified to work there because I didn't have my banking exams'. So I left the company and set up my own sales training consultancy (the business consultancy came later), and quickly contracted myself back to the same bank I'd left. 

Interestingly, the bank (my previous employers) were paying me a 'day rate', plus third party consultant privileges, such as private parking and a suite in the college, which was the equivalent to my previous monthly salary!  Is it little wonder why the banks are in such ****?

P.S. Original post should have read 'visa' not 'via' - ooops


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Expat Steve said:


> There was a certain sort of irony involved with this. Before I left the banking industry I asked the HR dept to transfer me to their staff training college to teach sales training. They refused on the grounds that I 'wasn't qualified to work there because I didn't have my banking exams'. So I left the company and set up my own sales training consultancy (the business consultancy came later), and quickly contracted myself back to the same bank I'd left.
> 
> Interestingly, the bank (my previous employers) were paying me a 'day rate', plus third party consultant privileges, such as private parking and a suite in the college, which was the equivalent to my previous monthly salary!  Is it little wonder why the banks are in such ****?
> 
> P.S. Original post should have read 'visa' not 'via' - ooops


Again similar to my son's experience. When he formed his Consultancy he was sub-contracted back to his original employer at a much higher day rate than his previous salary!!! Then when the project he was working on as Project Manager was completed he was taken back as core staff.
It sounds crazy....but then Rob had to hire programmers etc. to fulfil the contract -also self-employed people -so at the end of the day the original employer/contractor had no responsibilities for employees' tax, NI, holiday and sickness pay and so on.
The shape of things to come...or already here.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Oh how true......We had four apprentices at any one time as we were aware of the shortage of qualified people in our trade. No other Company in our area offered apprenticeships, which I thought scandalous. They were content to try and 'poach' the people we trained.
> No wonder we lag behind countries such as Germany.


Just doing the ironing with youtube on, as always, and don't know how but came across this.





 
Apologies if we're getting off the subject, although I think it's still sufficiently on track, isn't it?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Just doing the ironing with youtube on, as always, and don't know how but came across this.
> 
> YouTube - The Big Job Hunt | No Apprenticeships | Channel 4
> 
> Apologies if we're getting off the subject, although I think it's still sufficiently on track, isn't it?


It wouldnt work for me 

Jo xx


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