# Introducing myself



## TheEscapeArtist

Hi there

My partner and I are thinking of setting up base in Egypt from the UK, with luck, this time next year. This has been something my partner has looked into over some years now but as we are gradually selling up land and property, we are looking to cement our plans and get as much information as possible before committing our investment.

We are going out to Sharm el Sheikh for a banks/estate agents recce at the end of October - we would be grateful for ANY advice regarding how to get started, which questions to ask, what to avoid etc

Many thanks in advance and hope to be a regular on these boards in the coming months!


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## MaidenScotland

Hello and welcome to the forum.

Have a good read through the forum to get an idea on how life in Egypt is....

Maiden


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## hurghadapat

TheEscapeArtist said:


> Hi there
> 
> My partner and I are thinking of setting up base in Egypt from the UK, with luck, this time next year. This has been something my partner has looked into over some years now but as we are gradually selling up land and property, we are looking to cement our plans and get as much information as possible before committing our investment.
> 
> We are going out to Sharm el Sheikh for a banks/estate agents recce at the end of October - we would be grateful for ANY advice regarding how to get started, which questions to ask, what to avoid etc
> 
> Many thanks in advance and hope to be a regular on these boards in the coming months!


Hi...and welcome to the forum...only one question to ask...Why Egypt


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## Lanason

hurghadapat said:


> Hi...and welcome to the forum...only one question to ask...Why Egypt


One question :jaw:

I always have loads . . . . we can only give advice based upon knowing some background - the more you tell, the more specific and helpful we can be :eyebrows::eyebrows::eyebrows:

- will you be working?
- kids ?
- budget (ish)
- driving?
- etc


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## King.Tut

Hi 'TheEscapeArtist'.

I moved to Sharm a few years ago and found myself in a position similar to yours, I was interested in starting a business and purchasing property and found a number of people willing to help. However, it was soon clear that alot of these were only out to benefit themselves - surprise surprise!

I found a reputable British company in the real estate sector who not only helped with the purchase of properties (I know have 3 properties in Sharm) but they also helped with setting up a business. If you send me a private message, I'll send you the contact details for them.

Plus if you have any questions regarding Sharm, I'm more than happy to help you if I can.

Good luck with everything.


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## mamasue

I had a good friend in Egypt....Pat knows her well too....who went with her family to live in Egypt.
She had a 'friend' ..an expat, married to an Egyptian...who 'helped and advised her' when she first got to Egypt, with land and property deals.
Our friend, who incidentally is pretty smart, not sutpid at all.... was cheated out of everything she owned (they sold their house in the UK) , by a 'trustworthy expat' !!
Of course, lawyers are always totally biased towards Egyptians....the few lawyers with real qualifications I mean.... not the ones with a certificate or 'degree' from Ebay!
She returned to the UK a few years later, with just the clothes she stood up in.

I guess, my point is, apart from the fact that now is a lousy time to start a business, Egypt's totally unstable politically, is that you really can't trust anybody.
Egypt's great for holidays, not great for everyday living.

The only safe way to protect your investment is....Invest somewhere else, not Egypt!!!


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## Helen Ellis

Keep your assets in UK, rent them out or something while you investigate things here. Be VERY wary of "help", Mamasue's friend is not the only one to have been conned out of money by a "friend". As she said even the lawyers are sometimes in on the con. I know a few people conned by these people ( I assume it's the same couple) so who knows how many they conned altogether. It involved fake documents and fake lawyers!!!!! Very convincing.
The legal paperwork here is so behind and disorganised, to our minds anyway, that it must be simple to sell something you do not own, or sell the same property several times as has happened in many cases, with some companies multiple selling as routine practice to Egyptians a foreigners alike.
However some people do find the right business and succeed with it so take care but good luck too.


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## TheEscapeArtist

Thanks for all the comments. 

My partner initially had the idea of Egypt because he's been there quite a few times for the diving holidays. He found out that the interest rate was high and had the long term plan to build up the properties here as much as possible to get the highest return on selling, then gain the interest on arrival in Egypt.

Obviously we've since looked into that and discovered that we would need to be resident there for some years before that can happen. At this stage, we haven't even sold the first property, it's really early days. Hence joining forums and getting as much advice as possible! 

To give you a better idea of where we're at: we are 35 and 41, no children (and no plans for children), both currently working full time with a view that my partner would get his diving instruction qualification and I would be able to teach English for extra cash. Obviously the latter is viable almost anywhere in the world, the diving less so!

We are hoping that the sell up will bring in approx £500,000, again, this is all subject to the markets. Timing likewise 

It's a dream that my partner had before we even met to retire early and leave the UK. I've lived abroad before and have no strong ties here, so I want to put equal effort into this, but I also want to get all the facts before we commit to anything!


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## TheEscapeArtist

Oh, so to clarify, we're not looking to start an actual business, but we are considering looking at plots of sand with a view to building from scratch and having that property as either a base or holiday rental home.


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## hurghadapat

TheEscapeArtist said:


> Thanks for all the comments.
> 
> My partner initially had the idea of Egypt because he's been there quite a few times for the diving holidays. He found out that the interest rate was high and had the long term plan to build up the properties here as much as possible to get the highest return on selling, then gain the interest on arrival in Egypt.
> 
> Obviously we've since looked into that and discovered that we would need to be resident there for some years before that can happen. At this stage, we haven't even sold the first property, it's really early days. Hence joining forums and getting as much advice as possible!
> 
> To give you a better idea of where we're at: we are 35 and 41, no children (and no plans for children), both currently working full time with a view that my partner would get his diving instruction qualification and I would be able to teach English for extra cash. Obviously the latter is viable almost anywhere in the world, the diving less s
> 
> We are hoping that the sell up will bring in approx £500,000, again, this is all subject to the markets. Timing likewise
> 
> It's a dream that my partner had before we even met to retire early and leave the UK. I've lived abroad before and have no strong ties here, so I want to put equal effort into this, but I also want to get all the facts before we commit to anything!


High interest rates come with high risks...and even more so in an unstable country


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## canuck2010

TheEscapeArtist said:


> Oh, so to clarify, we're not looking to start an actual business, but we are considering looking at plots of sand with a view to building from scratch and having that property as either a base or holiday rental home.


Since revolution I have noticed there are many such properties for sale way below market prices, probably many owned by expats. Would be much cheaper than building from scratch. Of course, no one knows what will happen in Egypt politically, but there will always be tourism.


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## MaidenScotland

canuck2010 said:


> Since revolution I have noticed there are many such properties for sale way below market prices, probably many owned by expats. Would be much cheaper than building from scratch. Of course, no one knows what will happen in Egypt politically, but there will always be tourism.




but surely the market price has dropped... 


If I was ever and it is not likely to happen buy a house in Egypt I would never buy one ready built... Land here is relatively cheap so I would buy land and build a house to my own spec...


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## Homeless

TheEscapeArtist said:


> Thanks for all the comments.
> 
> My partner initially had the idea of Egypt because he's been there quite a few times for the diving holidays. He found out that the interest rate was high and had the long term plan to build up the properties here as much as possible to get the highest return on selling, then gain the interest on arrival in Egypt.
> 
> Obviously we've since looked into that and discovered that we would need to be resident there for some years before that can happen. At this stage, we haven't even sold the first property, it's really early days. Hence joining forums and getting as much advice as possible!
> 
> To give you a better idea of where we're at: we are 35 and 41, no children (and no plans for children), both currently working full time with a view that my partner would get his diving instruction qualification and I would be able to teach English for extra cash. Obviously the latter is viable almost anywhere in the world, the diving less so!
> 
> We are hoping that the sell up will bring in approx £500,000, again, this is all subject to the markets. Timing likewise
> 
> It's a dream that my partner had before we even met to retire early and leave the UK. I've lived abroad before and have no strong ties here, so I want to put equal effort into this, but I also want to get all the facts before we commit to anything!


High interest rates = Inflation . The interest rates calculated over a year has been OK last couple of years and you do end up ahead even with the slide of the Egyptian pound. But I don't expect that to continue and I now see it as to risky to carry Egyptian pounds period. 

Your plans would work out quite well if you buy your investment property in Cairo. Investing in resort properties and the whole of Sinai is a big mistake. Make your major investment in Cairo and buy a modest home on the red sea. You'll find great deals in Dahab, Sharm and Hurghada. Best not to build as you will be ripped off by everyone and I do mean everyone. Of course if you do not build and buy ready you will still get ripped off but it will be manageable.
My sincere advice, find another place for your investment and make Egypt a holiday destination.

The dive instruction thing should be a hobby not a reliable income as the dive industry is not doing so well right now in Egypt and again thanks to Morsy it is unlikely to improve soon.


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## canuck2010

Nice info Homeless, 

You don't sound very hopeful for the immediate future here in Egypt. Aren't the tourists starting to return?


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## Homeless

I don't see any hope for the country in the immediate or distant future. I don't have faith in the people and don't see any redeeming quality in them.

Property investment wise, your guess is as good as mine. I believe Cairo's slow real estate market is temporary and with a bit of confidence in the economy it will do quite well. The Red Sea zones on the other hand have been a problem and that specially goes for Sinai. The prices plummeted and with the security issues I would not invest a cent in there. It is lawless.
I just sold a property ion Dahab I owned for about third what it cost me and was glad I got that much.

I don't know much about tourism outside of Sinai and it's dead out there. October to December will either make or brake many of the business out there as this is the season when they make their money.


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## canuck2010

Sounds pretty grim. It looks like Egypt is in for another year of uncertainty.


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## CAIRODEMON

Homeless said:


> High interest rates = Inflation . The interest rates calculated over a year has been OK last couple of years and you do end up ahead even with the slide of the Egyptian pound. But I don't expect that to continue and I now see it as to risky to carry Egyptian pounds period.
> 
> Your plans would work out quite well if you buy your investment property in Cairo. Investing in resort properties and the whole of Sinai is a big mistake. Make your major investment in Cairo and buy a modest home on the red sea. You'll find great deals in Dahab, Sharm and Hurghada. Best not to build as you will be ripped off by everyone and I do mean everyone. Of course if you do not build and buy ready you will still get ripped off but it will be manageable.
> My sincere advice, find another place for your investment and make Egypt a holiday destination.
> 
> The dive instruction thing should be a hobby not a reliable income as the dive industry is not doing so well right now in Egypt and again thanks to Morsy it is unlikely to improve soon.


That's very good advice. The LE has held up surprisingly well over the last 18 months, but do they have the funds to continue to support it? Any IMF deal is likely to include a controlled devaluation. I would think long and hard before buying property here in Cairo, however I would not have to think very long at all re. buying anywhere else, I just would not do it!

Frankly, if you have the money, there are far better places than Egypt to settle in


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## Sonrisa

On the other hand, as Sinai is falling apart, i've noticed that hotels in Ain nSokhna are fully booked week end After weekend


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## RPC

....i do not entirely agree, I still can't find properties in Europe with a sea view at current egyptian prices therefore, unless you buy a "resort" I guess the risk can be still be supported.


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## Lanason

RPC said:


> ....i do not entirely agree, I still can't find properties in Europe with a sea view at current egyptian prices therefore, unless you buy a "resort" I guess the risk can be still be supported.


I guess 2 very separate issues:-
1) what can I buy for my money
2) will I make a profit when I sell

These can be un connected


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## MaidenScotland

Lanason said:


> I guess 2 very separate issues:-
> 1) what can I buy for my money
> 2) will I make a profit when I sell
> 
> These can be un connected




can you re sell?


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## CAIRODEMON

Lanason said:


> I guess 2 very separate issues:-
> 1) what can I buy for my money
> 2) will I make a profit when I sell
> 
> These can be un connected



Also "Can I take my money out?"


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## RPC

MaidenScotland said:


> can you re sell?


I know expats that have sold their property and sent the money back home ... (the UK in this case)! ....it was not an issue for them!
:ranger:


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## Homeless

RPC said:


> ....i do not entirely agree, I still can't find properties in Europe with a sea view at current egyptian prices therefore, unless you buy a "resort" I guess the risk can be still be supported.



There are great deals to be had. No doubt about that. It is a buyer's market for those who understand the financial and personal risk.
Some of the local heavies are buying on the cheap and willing to keep it long term. They know how to handle municipality officials, builders and Bedouins laying claim to the property. It's not for everyone.


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## CAIRODEMON

RPC said:


> I know expats that have sold their property and sent the money back home ... (the UK in this case)! ....it was not an issue for them!
> :ranger:


It WAS not an issue, true. But if you are considering purchasing property you may well be concerned that it may become an issue.


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## TheEscapeArtist

Hi guys

This is all really useful advice, thanks. I have put forward a lot of the concerns and potential dangers to my partner and he has said that Egypt does not have to be where we invest - like anyone, he wants the maximum potential with the least risk. 

I certainly have reservations based on what you've said, I am currrently looking through the articles on here and elsewhere, but if anyone can post a link or two to some helpful articles, it would be much appreciated.

In the meantime, the OH still suggested I ask/investigate the following:

1) Who are the reputable estate agents? Do any exist?? Both for rental and buying.
2) What is an acceptable rental cost for a two bedroom apartment? In Sharm or anywhere else in Egypt?
3) What are the standard utility/running costs for living in a two bedroomed apartment there?
4) What banks would you recommend other than the international giants?

Like I said, these are all just putting out feelers, and we both have a lot more research to do before making any kind of commitment with this.

P.S. I am Research Assistant on this particular project, OH has his roles too!


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## Homeless

That should get you started and give you a very good idea on the advantages and pitfalls of investing in properties in Egypt.

2-Acceptable to whom? To me, unfurnished apartment in Maadi or Rehab cost me 1800-2000 LE/month. Nothing fancy and more than adequate. Quiet, clean streets! and easy parking!!!!

Sharm is likely to be similar but I don't know for a fact.


3-I think I pay an average of 62LE/month for electricity in the summer. I know last winter the bills were quite high, may be 200 LE or so due to the heaters being on all day.
Water 50LE/month which is somewhat high. In rehab I paid fraction of that.
Doorman and garbage removal 55LE/month.

4- I changed seven banks in about a week or ten days. They are all morons and that goes without exception. I now deal with National Bank of Greece and Barclay and they are incompetent too and I'm likely to go back to CIB not because they have better customer service but they sort of have online banking.


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## marenostrum

TheEscapeArtist said:


> Hi guys
> 
> This is all really useful advice, thanks. I have put forward a lot of the concerns and potential dangers to my partner and he has said that Egypt does not have to be where we invest - like anyone, he wants the maximum potential with the least risk.
> 
> I certainly have reservations based on what you've said, I am currrently looking through the articles on here and elsewhere, but if anyone can post a link or two to some helpful articles, it would be much appreciated.
> 
> In the meantime, the OH still suggested I ask/investigate the following:
> 
> 1) Who are the reputable estate agents? Do any exist?? Both for rental and buying.
> 2) What is an acceptable rental cost for a two bedroom apartment? In Sharm or anywhere else in Egypt?
> 3) What are the standard utility/running costs for living in a two bedroomed apartment there?
> 4) What banks would you recommend other than the international giants?
> 
> Like I said, these are all just putting out feelers, and we both have a lot more research to do before making any kind of commitment with this.
> 
> P.S. I am Research Assistant on this particular project, OH has his roles too!


hi,

My advice to you would be to work out how much of the 500k you would be willing to put in a high risk investment. Investing here is high risk and like with any high risk investment, it can make you rich or it can make you broke.
I would not invest everything in the egyptian basket, by all means buy a nice house here BUT at the same time invest the rest of your pot into something else back home. This would give you a safety net if things don't work out.
But a word of warning, you may not be able to seel the property you have in the UK, the housing market there and possibly in the rest of Europe is ******ed. Houses are not selling easily.

I am more or less your age and I did a similar thing to you just for the adventure. You only get one life so if you want to try this experience do it but do keep a safety net just in case.


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## AlexDhabi

TheEscapeArtist said:


> Thanks for all the comments.
> 
> ... had the long term plan to build up the properties here as much as possible to get the highest return on selling, then gain the interest on arrival in Egypt.
> 
> Obviously we've since looked into that and discovered that we would need to be resident there for some years before that can happen. At this stage, we haven't even sold the first property, it's really early days. ...


I think you may have been misinformed somewhere along the line as you do not have to be resident to buy/sell property in Egypt. Make sure the court approves your property contract in both Arabic and English.
I bought my property in Alexandria 8 years ago now and have no regrets but always have a plan B (and C and...) as well as only having a small proportion of my assets in Egypt.


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## AlexDhabi

Lanason said:


> I guess 2 very separate issues:-
> 1) what can I buy for my money
> 2) will I make a profit when I sell
> 
> These can be un connected


I think this is extremely wise advice in any property market.


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## hurghadapat

TheEscapeArtist said:


> Hi guys
> 
> This is all really useful advice, thanks. I have put forward a lot of the concerns and potential dangers to my partner and he has said that Egypt does not have to be where we invest - like anyone, he wants the maximum potential with the least risk.
> 
> I certainly have reservations based on what you've said, I am currrently looking through the articles on here and elsewhere, but if anyone can post a link or two to some helpful articles, it would be much appreciated.
> 
> In the meantime, the OH still suggested I ask/investigate the following:
> 
> 1) Who are the reputable estate agents? Do any exist?? Both for rental and buying.
> 2) What is an acceptable rental cost for a two bedroom apartment? In Sharm or anywhere else in Egypt?
> 3) What are the standard utility/running costs for living in a two bedroomed
> 
> apartment there?
> 
> 
> 4) What banks would you recommend other than the international giants?
> 
> Like I said, these are all just putting out feelers, and we both have a lot more research to do before making any kind of commitment with this.
> 
> P.S. I am Research Assistant on this particular project, OH has his roles too!


A link to some useful information :-

Purchase of Property


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## Biffy

Hi
also please be advised that the rules / laws governing who can buy properties in areas such as Hurghada, el Gouna (and the rest, and sharm and the north coast are changing imminently).

The Hurghada and El Gouna coast will be the first to see the change where anyone from outside Egypt will only be able to buy a property with an EGyptian partner - 51% owned by an EGyptian National!! ANd this change to the law is imminent.
The rest of them will follow suit!

We have been considering buying a place down towards Hurghada - but the bank has said that very shortly these will be the rules.

They don't want massive chunks / areas of Egypt owned entirely by expat / non-Egyptian owners.

And we all know know how it will turn out if you try and buy a property with an Egyptian - not very well for the guy from outside!! The word Fleeced comes to mind.


Also I wouldn't place eveything on such as 'there will always be tourism' - no-one knows wht the future holds for Egypt. And Shariah tourism (can't remember the term that has been bandied about) - would certainly not be the same as what you have now.

Also all it needs is another incident such as Hatshepsut or the bombings outside of the Egyptian museum - then tourism will be hsitory for a good long while.

My advice would be if you were thinking to invest money into Egypt - would be to forget it at this time. There are too many questions hanging and too much instability!!


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## MaidenScotland

maybe part of what I was told on Friday

Foreigners can do what they like with foreigners but not with Egyptians, this is Egypt and staying Egypt


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## canuck2010

There are a lot of rumors, but there is still no new constitution, there is still no agreement with the IMF and others, and the military still calls the shots. In other words, anything could happen.


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## CAIRODEMON

canuck2010 said:


> There are a lot of rumors, but there is still no new constitution, there is still no agreement with the IMF and others, and the military still calls the shots. In other words, anything could happen.


In which way is the military still calling the shots?:confused2:

PS Did you intend the pun?


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## MaidenScotland

CAIRODEMON said:


> In which way is the military still calling the shots?:confused2:
> 
> PS Did you intend the pun?





Well they don't seem to answer to anyone


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