# Residency / Permanent Residency



## stevesainty (Jan 7, 2011)

We were always thinking about applying for permanent residency but in light of Brexit we would like to do it sooner rather than later.
Originally we thought that the criteria included the need to have lived in Spain as a temporary resident for 5 years, however having Googled for more information it seems that we can apply now if we are in the receipt of a retirement pension.
Has anyone any first hand knowledge of applying for permanent residency who can throw some more light on the subject please?


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

stevesainty said:


> We were always thinking about applying for permanent residency but in light of Brexit we would like to do it sooner rather than later.
> Originally we thought that the criteria included the need to have lived in Spain as a temporary resident for 5 years, however having Googled for more information it seems that we can apply now if we are in the receipt of a retirement pension.
> Has anyone any first hand knowledge of applying for permanent residency who can throw some more light on the subject please?


You don't have to apply - it's an automatic right once you fulfil the requirements. Once you fulfil the requirements, you can should you chose to, get a permanent resident card, but it's optional

Where did you read that being in receipt of a pension means that you can apply sooner? I don't see that in the govt guidelines

Residencia de carácter permanente - Ministerio del Interior


----------



## stevesainty (Jan 7, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> Where did you read that being in receipt of a pension means that you can apply sooner? I don't see that in the govt guidelines


Criteria 2 in this article

https://translate.google.es/transla...sitos-residencia-permanente-espana.htm&anno=2


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

stevesainty said:


> Criteria 2 in this article
> 
> https://translate.google.es/transla...sitos-residencia-permanente-espana.htm&anno=2


The govt guidelines don't say that though, & I suspect they will follow their guidelines rather than an article on an unofficial website  

The only mention of pensioners/retirees that I can find in the guidelines on the govt site is this 




> El trabajador por cuenta propia o ajena que, en el momento en que cese su actividad, haya alcanzado la edad prevista en la legislación española para acceder a la jubilación con derecho a pensión, cuando haya ejercido su actividad en España durante al menos los últimos doce meses y haya residido en España de forma continuada más de tres años.


translated


> The employed or self employed persons who, at the time they stop working, have reached retirement age according to Spanish legislation with pension rights and has carried on his activity in Spain for at least the last twelve months and has resided continuously in Spain more than three years.



and this


> El trabajador por cuenta ajena que acceda a la jubilación anticipada, cuando haya ejercido su actividad en España durante al menos los últimos doce meses y haya residido en España de forma continuada más de tres años.


translated


> The self employed worker taking early retirement, who has worked in Spain for at least the previous twelve months and has resided continuously in Spain for more than three years.


----------



## stevesainty (Jan 7, 2011)

https://www.boe.es/buscar/act.php?id=BOE-A-2011-7703

I believe that Article 148 3a is the basis for the wording in the article but maybe this is only a Spanish pension and not a UK pension.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

stevesainty said:


> https://www.boe.es/buscar/act.php?id=BOE-A-2011-7703
> 
> I believe that Article 148 3a is the basis for the wording in the article but maybe this is only a Spanish pension and not a UK pension.


I would translate


> incluida dentro de la acción protectora del sistema español de la Seguridad Social.


as


> included / falling within the protective action of the Spanish Social Security system


so yes, a Spanish pension

perhaps other Spanish speakers will give their opinion?

either way though, if you're entitled, you're simply entitled - you don't have to get a card to prove it


----------



## Valleyhappy (Jun 27, 2016)

Can anyone tell me what the benefit of having this permanent residency actually is? Thank you.


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

does this also not only apply to EU citizens of which we apparently will not be?

Son titulares del derecho a residir con carácter permanente los ciudadanos de un Estado miembro de la *Unión Europea o de un Estado parte en el Acuerdo sobre el Espacio Económico Europeo*, y los miembros de la familia que no sean nacionales de uno de dichos Estados, que hayan residido legalmente en España durante un período continuado de cinco años


----------



## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

Also, do we actually have to obtain the piece of paper to upgrade our status? I'm wondering if just having a +5 year old green sheet is enough.


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Turtles said:


> Also, do we actually have to obtain the piece of paper to upgrade our status? I'm wondering if just having a +5 year old green sheet is enough.


See post #2


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

> The self employed worker taking early retirement, who has worked in Spain for at least the previous twelve months and has resided continuously in Spain for more than three years.



Sorry I am being dim here.


As an early retiree on a NHS pension
Lived here 2 years + 1 year to go
Worked here as self employed for 12 months

I can apply for permanent residency?

Thank you for your time

PS
Does this include spouses


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

cambio said:


> Sorry I am being dim here.
> 
> 
> As an early retiree on a NHS pension
> ...


Yes it does, once you've been resident for 3 years

It doesn't include spouses though


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Valleyhappy said:


> Can anyone tell me what the benefit of having this permanent residency actually is? Thank you.





Turtles said:


> Also, do we actually have to obtain the piece of paper to upgrade our status? I'm wondering if just having a +5 year old green sheet is enough.


It's an automatic right, so no, you don't have to obtain that piece of paper

However.... When I get time I shall be going to obtain mine. Just for the feeling of security!


----------



## JulyB (Jul 18, 2011)

I have been meaning to post something about going to get my new cert a few days ago (yes, I had a bad feeling about the Ref and wanted to have a piece of paper to hold onto, even if it is no guarantee.) I wanted it, although I know it's legally the same after 5 years, because I just wanted to have something to wave under people's noses if they try to say I'm not entitled to something now because I'm British. 

The first thing is that I'm a worker here, so the rules for retired people are different. As a worker in Madrid, I had to make an appointment at the office in Madrid at Padre Piquer 18, none of the other offices will update the certs for EU citizens. There's actually a useful app for this and lots of other appointments - put in 'Solicita Cita Previa' into Google Play Store and you'll find it. My appointment was about 2 weeks later.

I had to bring my old green cert, the Tasa 790 triplicate form paid with 10,60€ at any bank (You can get the form at the same extranjería office as your appointment. You don't have to tick any of the boxes on it, just pay the money. And you must pay it before the appointment.) 

I also had to bring my original work contract and three original recent nominas, plus photocopies of all of these, and my passport, plus a photocopy of that. So I suppose for other people not working, some proof of income would be required, just to show how you are living here. They didn't ask me anything about healthcare.

And you also need two EX-18 forms filled in. One of these is your copy to take away. You can download that from the internet and print it out. You tick the box at the bottom that says you want the new cert to say 'residencia permanente' and tick the 5 años option or whichever suits you.

And that's all! No padrón cert needed (I brought that just in case) and I didn't need any photos. 

I turned up, waited an hour, and had a nice chat to the very helpful guy while he made the little green paper card for me (the cards are really small, compared to the old cert. Shame you're not allowed to laminate them). It has my original date of registration (2009) and that I've been permanently here since then. Thankfully, it no longer has my parents' names on it. I mean, I like my parents, but I always thought that was a bit weird!

Sadly, he also said that having registered as permanent, I'd never need to reregister or deal with the extranjería again, which will no longer be the case now after Brexit. I expect we'll have to get foreigner ID cards one day and I'll now eventually be applying for Spanish nationality, so that'll be much more paperwork. But it is true that once you have registered as permanent, you don't need to update your address with them again, at least until after Brexit, just remember to register the padrón.

Hope that helps!


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> Yes it does, once you've been resident for 3 years
> 
> It doesn't include spouses though


OH!!!!!!!! SHame



JulyB said:


> I have been meaning to post something about going to get my new cert a few days ago (yes, I had a bad feeling about the Ref and wanted to have a piece of paper to hold onto, even if it is no guarantee.) I wanted it, although I know it's legally the same after 5 years, because I just wanted to have something to wave under people's noses if they try to say I'm not entitled to something now because I'm British.
> 
> The first thing is that I'm a worker here, so the rules for retired people are different. As a worker in Madrid, I had to make an appointment at the office in Madrid at Padre Piquer 18, none of the other offices will update the certs for EU citizens. There's actually a useful app for this and lots of other appointments - put in 'Solicita Cita Previa' into Google Play Store and you'll find it. My appointment was about 2 weeks later.
> 
> ...


thanks


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

I actually think our certs are what you describe

Ours say exactly the same

Certificado de regostro d cuidadano de la union

Residente comunitario en Espana 13/05/

small green card, no lamenating


----------



## JulyB (Jul 18, 2011)

Yes, they'll be the same cards. It's just that I had one of the A4 certs from 2009. It's not exactly the same because now it says 'residente comunitario *permanente* en España desde .../.../2009'. And they have a record that I stated the wish to be recognized as permanent. That's the difference.


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

JulyB said:


> Yes, they'll be the same cards. It's just that I had one of the A4 certs from 2009. The difference is that now it says getting them to add 'residente communitarian *permanente* en España desde .../.../2009'. That's the difference.


So we have permanent residents cards. That's good. As you say. means nothing but does probably give us an advantage when things change, like it did for those people who had registered as residents before the health system changed. Thank you, that the first constructive thing I have seen today.


----------



## JulyB (Jul 18, 2011)

I'm not sure if you do, Cambio, because the cards all fundamentally look the same whether you just arrived or you've been here forever. Just check that it actually has the word 'permanente' written on it, otherwise it's not actually a permanent resident cert, just the normal kind. This absolutely doesn't affect your right to be recognized by the EU after 5 years (or in your case maybe 3 years, by the sounds of it?) as a permanent resident, but it might affect your ability to _prove_ that to people. And we may need to prove a lot of things now.

I say that, because I always thought my old registration cert was a permanent resident cert, but it turned out not to be, so I went for the upgrade!


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Interestingly, you shouldn't have had to show proof of income (work contract) or proof of health care.

You were just updating an existing registration rather than applying for a new one.

The problem is; try explaining that to the funcionarios and get them to accept it!


----------



## JulyB (Jul 18, 2011)

Yes, I know. But them's the rules, so you've just got to go with it.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

cambio said:


> So we have permanent residents cards. That's good. As you say. means nothing but does probably give us an advantage when things change, like it did for those people who had registered as residents before the health system changed. Thank you, that the first constructive thing I have seen today.


does it say 'de carácter permanente' on it? (or words to that effect?)


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> does it say 'de carácter permanente' on it? (or words to that effect?)


No, so that is cleared up then thanks. I thought it was odd that we would but you never know!


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

JulyB said:


> Yes, I know. But them's the rules, so you've just got to go with it.


That's the point, what you quoted are NOT the rules! It might be what you've experienced but it's not what the rules are or what should have been done.


----------



## JulyB (Jul 18, 2011)

You are free to try to fight it out with them!

But actually, it's a much more straightforward process to get Permanent Residency recognized here than in the UK.


----------



## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

*Does the Permanent Residence card also confer right of employment in Spain ?*



JulyB said:


> You are free to try to fight it out with them!
> 
> But actually, it's a much more straightforward process to get Permanent Residency recognized here than in the UK.


No one seems to have mentioned whether Permanent Residency also gives you the continued right of employment in Spain. 
I would assume it does, as how can Spain expect any British Expat of working age ( who might or might not be stripped of the EU's Free Movement of Labour after Brexit and the UK finally departs from the EU in two years time ) be expected to support himself and he's or her family without right of employment being conferred on those British Expats with the Permanent Residence card.

No doubt it would also be beholden on working British Expats - to ensure they have the Permanent Residence card on hand,
to present to any new employer whenever they change jobs in Spain, following Brexit. If the above is true ?


----------



## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

To help out forum members with all this hassle I have a cunning plan

I will firstly apply to be a Mormon. After that as an Irish citizen I will be able to get any of you members whom I marry permission to stay in Spain.

Now as I don't want too many mother in laws I am limiting this offer to 25 women. Preference will be given to 25 to 40 age group, brunettes who are stunners and great cooks. A good knowledge of football and ability to remain silent when Celtic are on tv are also advantages 

Send pics of both yourself and your best meal creation to my forum contact address

Winners will be notified by post within 30 days. Only one application per household as I am not marrying sisters- nutty I maybe but not weird.

Under no circumstances need Brexiteers apply.


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Rabbitcat said:


> To help out forum members with all this hassle I have a cunning plan
> 
> I will firstly apply to be a Mormon. After that as an Irish citizen I will be able to get any of you members whom I marry permission to stay in Spain.
> 
> ...


Thats me ruled out then, but desperately checking the old family tree to see if me mother and father ( From the North) descended from the South, and I can claim heritage from county Cork............Im getting desperate. :juggle:

I am out of your selection criteria


----------



## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Lol

Should have made it clear the cooking ability is the main criteria


----------



## fergie (Oct 4, 2010)

Rabbitcat said:


> Lol
> 
> Should have made it clear the cooking ability is the main criteria


That is me out of the competition, I managed to burn boiled eggs today, honestly the shells were intact, but the egg white burned, we tried to bounce them, and they bounced!


----------



## JulyB (Jul 18, 2011)

Williams2 said:


> No one seems to have mentioned whether Permanent Residency also gives you the continued right of employment in Spain.
> I would assume it does, as how can Spain expect any British Expat of working age ( who might or might not be stripped of the EU's Free Movement of Labour after Brexit and the UK finally departs from the EU in two years time ) be expected to support himself and he's or her family without right of employment being conferred on those British Expats with the Permanent Residence card.
> 
> No doubt it would also be beholden on working British Expats - to ensure they have the Permanent Residence card on hand,
> to present to any new employer whenever they change jobs in Spain, following Brexit. If the above is true ?


Actually, I'd assume that after Brexit we would have our permanent residency as EU citizens transferred to permanent resident non-EU citizens (currently impossible, but they'll have to do something about us), so we'd have to get the foreigner photo ID cards and we'd have the same rights as someone resident here over five years from the USA or Japan, for example. So these EU PR green cards are probably just a temporary stopgap until then. I do think it would be sensible to let the authorities know that you are permanent before that changeover happens, though.


----------



## amespana (Nov 10, 2009)

Our 5 year residency arrives in September.Our gestor enquired about changing our cards to permanente pre Brexit.She was told this was not necessary as the system would note that we were permanente and we we would be treated as such.That it did not say so on the card made no difference.


----------



## amespana (Nov 10, 2009)

This was at Estepona police station.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

amespana said:


> Our 5 year residency arrives in September.Our gestor enquired about changing our cards to permanente pre Brexit.She was told this was not necessary as the system would note that we were permanente and we we would be treated as such.That it did not say so on the card made no difference.


Friends of mine were told the same. As far as I can tell, that advice about permanent status came from the British Ambassador's office. There is nothing in the Spanish government information covering arrangements post Brexit, deal or no deal.

https://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/en/brexit/howtoprepare/Paginas/190108residence.aspx

In the (increasingly likely) event of no deal:



> Although after the withdrawal date your status will be that of a third-country national, the Spanish Government has provided for a period of 21 months from the date of the UK's withdrawal without an agreement for the UK nationals resident in Spain before withdrawal and their family members to obtain the new documentation (Foreigner Identity Card - TIE) that provides proof of your residence in Spain. Until you obtain the necessary documents, for a period of 21 months your residence will continue to be legal.
> 
> *Registration certificates (the green certificate) and the cards of family members of an EU citizen will serve as proof of their legal residence in Spain *for a period of 21 months after the UK's withdrawal from the EU without an agreement and until they obtain the TIE.


----------



## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

amespana said:


> Our 5 year residency arrives in September.Our gestor enquired about changing our cards to permanente pre Brexit.She was told this was not necessary as the system would note that we were permanente and we we would be treated as such.That it did not say so on the card made no difference.


My wife and I applied for permanent residence last year. We were told at the national police station in Alcoy that it was not necessary as we were automatically permanent residents having lived legally in Spain for nearly 12 years. However, we said we would be happier if we had cards that actually said we were permanent residents, in view of Brexit, and she gave them to us./SNIP/


----------



## BC92 (Jan 11, 2019)

*Certificado EU/Green card question*

Hi Everyone,

I have the certificado de registro de ciudadano de la unión as a British Citizen.

For this to stay valid do I need to stay in Spain for a minimum amount of days per year?

For example can I live in Spain for 4 months and somewhere else for 8?

Also, I assume we don't know still but will we have to replace this with something else after Brexit?

Thanks


----------



## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

If you have held this for more than 5 years, then you can be absent for up to 2 years (continuous) and still retain it.

Any less than 5 years and you can only be absent for a period of up to 6 months before you lose it.


This is all theoretical, in practice it seems that people very rarely lose 'residency'.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

BC92 said:


> Also, I assume we don't know still but will we have to replace this with something else after Brexit?
> 
> Thanks


Yes, after Brexit it will be replaced by the TIE (tarjeta de indentidad extranjera) which has different eligibility criteria.

See the thread on permanent residency for more details. Basically you'll have a grace period after Brexit in which to exchange your certificate for a TIE.


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, after Brexit it will be replaced by the TIE (tarjeta de indentidad extranjera) which has different eligibility criteria.
> 
> See the thread on permanent residency for more details. Basically you'll have a grace period after Brexit in which to exchange your certificate for a TIE.


TBH I am getting increasingly concerned over the supposed straightforward exchange. In my region, swapping to a permanent green card is the same as applying for the initial residency. We have had to prove absolutely everything all over again and regardless of what anyone says on here about it being a royal decree or the government of Spain says... it’s not the same everywhere. When I gave the police National the wording as linked on here I got a shrug and was told that’s not how it works here.


----------



## RagnBowman (Jul 23, 2019)

Megsmum said:


> TBH I am getting increasingly concerned over the supposed straightforward exchange. In my region, swapping to a permanent green card is the same as applying for the initial residency. We have had to prove absolutely everything all over again and regardless of what anyone says on here about it being a royal decree or the government of Spain says... it’s not the same everywhere. When I gave the police National the wording as linked on here I got a shrug and was told that’s not how it works here.


Indeed, so true, don't you just love the "Spanish Shrug". You can quote/show them anything you want but to no avail. I tend to agree with you and I fear the exchange to the TIE will not be a simple matter and I fear they may apply the far stricter financial criteria that a 3rd Country citizen has to show regardless of as you say "what any Royal Decree says". And this may prove a big issue for many.


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

From the British Embassy 

https://www.facebook.com/BritsInSpain/posts/2079058318865225


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

From the Spanish govt https://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/e...jRP0GMFEUvmS0v1J8BnZBJan99bUnlY7yKG_DwzLwSXJQ


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

xabiaxica said:


> From the British Embassy
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/BritsInSpain/posts/2079058318865225





xabiaxica said:


> From the Spanish govt https://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/e...jRP0GMFEUvmS0v1J8BnZBJan99bUnlY7yKG_DwzLwSXJQ


I have read all this unfortunately our local government has not!


----------



## Love Karma (Oct 10, 2018)

Likewise and sadly it doesn't fill me with confidence.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Well to be fair Brexit hasn't happened yet, and we still don't know whether there will be a deal, so local authorities/extranjerias may not have been given official instructions.

I trust the Spanish governmnent more than I do the British one at the moment, so I'm not too worried. These things will get sorted in good time.


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Alcalaina said:


> Well to be fair Brexit hasn't happened yet, and we still don't know whether there will be a deal, so local authorities/extranjerias may not have been given official instructions.
> 
> I trust the Spanish governmnent more than I do the British one at the moment, so I'm not too worried. These things will get sorted in good time.


Very true, however, the rules re five years do exist and many don’t seem to know about those either. I’m not worried as in we won’t get it I’m more pissed off that we are having to jump through the original hoops to get it . Of course had Boris Johnson actually done what he said he would do ie put EU citizens rights into U.K. law things may well have moved along in the EU but as he’s a lying, self serving ******* I’m not actually surprised


----------



## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

Went to the Police station in Torre del Mar today to try and update my old A4 green certificate that was first issued in 2012 (Nov) to the Tarjeta style with the word "permanente" on it, was under the impression that it would be straightforward but oh no they wanted all my details and copies of bank statements, private insurance, escritura, padron birth cert and a few other things which I obviously didn't have with me. I explained they have it all already from when I was originally accepted. They just shrugged and said those were the rules. I asked for the manager who came and explained that this was procedure and then kindly wrote down what was needed to be brought and then wrote €25,560 must be proved as earnings via job contract or bank statements I questioned this amount and he just shrugged and basically said these were the new figures. Anyone else encountered this? He then went on to say that I really didn't need to do it anyway as the system shows how long I have been here and that he expected everything would change at some point due to Brexit. So am going to see a gestor next week to see what they say, but may now just wait and see


----------



## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

blondebob said:


> Went to the Police station in Torre del Mar today to try and update my old A4 green certificate that was first issued in 2012 (Nov) to the Tarjeta style with the word "permanente" on it, was under the impression that it would be straightforward but oh no they wanted all my details and copies of bank statements, private insurance, escritura, padron birth cert and a few other things which I obviously didn't have with me. I explained they have it all already from when I was originally accepted. They just shrugged and said those were the rules. I asked for the manager who came and explained that this was procedure and then kindly wrote down what was needed to be brought and then wrote €25,560 must be proved as earnings via job contract or bank statements I questioned this amount and he just shrugged and basically said these were the new figures. Anyone else encountered this? He then went on to say that I really didn't need to do it anyway as the system shows how long I have been here and that he expected everything would change at some point due to Brexit. So am going to see a gestor next week to see what they say, but may now just wait and see


That monetary figure is for non-EU citizens. 

You're still an EU citizen (for now), so even if they were to insist on you proving income, it's nearer to 6,500€ 

Yes, after Brexit, for a TIE it will (almost certainly) be more in the region on 25,560€ for anyone who isn't already a permanent resident, in line with other 3rd country citizens.

let us know how you get on with the gestor.


----------



## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

xabiaxica said:


> That monetary figure is for non-EU citizens.
> 
> *You're still an EU citizen (for now), so even if they were to insist on you proving income, it's nearer to 6,500€
> *
> ...


Thanks, I did point that out to him but he was having none of it and just gave the impression that this was a new figure and applicable regardless as we were leaving the EU and this would be the figure that we'd need to prove for a TIE regardless of status in due course. Was just wondering if anyone else had had a similar experience recently when trying to upgrade to the tarjeta with permanente on it. Actually rang my Gestor who confirmed it wasn't necessary to do this as proof of being here for 5 yrs was enough and as it was on the system should be fine. He didn't really offer any advice on the figures as he didn't know but was going to call me back early next week. Do you know whether the 26k euro figure is gross or a net figure? As I'd be borderline if a net figure. What a bloody fiasco


----------



## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

blondebob said:


> Went to the Police station in Torre del Mar today to try and update my old A4 green certificate that was first issued in 2012 (Nov) to the Tarjeta style with the word "permanente" on it, was under the impression that it would be straightforward but oh no they wanted all my details and copies of bank statements, private insurance, escritura, padron birth cert and a few other things which I obviously didn't have with me. I explained they have it all already from when I was originally accepted. They just shrugged and said those were the rules. I asked for the manager who came and explained that this was procedure and then kindly wrote down what was needed to be brought and then wrote €25,560 must be proved as earnings via job contract or bank statements I questioned this amount and he just shrugged and basically said these were the new figures. Anyone else encountered this? He then went on to say that I really didn't need to do it anyway as the system shows how long I have been here and that he expected everything would change at some point due to Brexit. So am going to see a gestor next week to see what they say, but may now just wait and see


Not recently, but we updated ours (originally issued in 2007) at Torre del Mar in 2014 and got the ones with "permanente" on them. We weren't asked for any proof of income nor health insurance, only had to provide the EX18 forms, our passports and the Modelo 790 stamped by the bank to prove the fee had been paid (which is exactly how it is supposed to be).


----------



## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Never fear with Boris at the helm as PM, complete with his No Deal Brexit War chest amply
enlarged by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sajid Khan. What can go wrong ?
The gathering of the Little Ships & Little Ferries on the South coast of England, continues apace.


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Lynn R said:


> Not recently, but we updated ours (originally issued in 2007) at Torre del Mar in 2014 and got the ones with "permanente" on them. We weren't asked for any proof of income nor health insurance, only had to provide the EX18 forms, our passports and the Modelo 790 stamped by the bank to prove the fee had been paid (which is exactly how it is supposed to be).


We have had to show more income for the permanent residency card than when we first arrived!

We have to provide the following

Passports
Evidence of our tarjeta de salud
Income tax for past two years
Evidence of my autonomo status 
Certificate of funds from Spanish bank
Translated certificate of funds from U.K. bank
Certificate of empadronamiento 
NIE certs
Existing Green cards
Marriage certificate translated
Letter from my NHS pension translated 

When we arrived nearly 6 years ago! We had to produce bank statements, S1 for early retirees and empadronamiento, that was it. 

As for accepted funds there is no set amount! However for two people the guy told us €13000 was insufficient but could not or would not tell us what was acceptable. We have now gone through our lawyers, who is coming with us. She also tells me that in my region the criteria is harder and that in my region the royal decree means nothing!

It’s like many things. Depends on where, when, who and what day


----------



## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

Lynn R said:


> Not recently, but we updated ours (originally issued in 2007) at Torre del Mar in 2014 and got the ones with "permanente" on them. We weren't asked for any proof of income nor health insurance, only had to provide the EX18 forms, our passports and the Modelo 790 stamped by the bank to prove the fee had been paid (which is exactly how it is supposed to be).


Seems things have changed massively since then and also very hit and miss as from one office to the next, one region to another. Just threw me when the Torre del Mar office was quoting those figures already as if set in stone. Be interesting as to what actually transpires if and when the TIE applications are needed.


----------



## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

Megsmum said:


> We have had to show more income for the permanent residency card than when we first arrived!
> 
> We have to provide the following
> 
> ...


Goodness that list is even more comprehensive than mine. No mention of NIE cert. or lump sum in the bank, just the €26,500 income. Just spoke to a Canadian chap I know and he told me someone he knew from Canada was an early retiree so couldn't show the level of income needed but could show money deposited in a Spanish bank, they accepted 52k euros which he had to transfer and get a bank cert before the would issue him with the relevant document/card and this was 2 yrs ago.
Good luck when you go with your lawyer. Amazing how they can blatantly disregard a Royal Decree.


----------



## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

blondebob said:


> Goodness that list is even more comprehensive than mine. No mention of NIE cert. or lump sum in the bank, just the €26,500 income. Just spoke to a Canadian chap I know and he told me someone he knew from Canada was an early retiree so couldn't show the level of income needed but could show money deposited in a Spanish bank, they accepted 52k euros which he had to transfer and get a bank cert before the would issue him with the relevant document/card and this was 2 yrs ago.
> Good luck when you go with your lawyer. Amazing how they can blatantly disregard a Royal Decree.


Maybe they are diehard Republicans in that region of Spain ? In Asturias my permie application
was accepted by just showing them my Social Security payments that I get from the Social Security office.
That has a complete breakdown of all my monthly income as recorded by the Social Security system
for the past 4.5 years.

That was all that was required from me as evidence that I can support myself.
Although I did come prepared to show them my UK Company pensions that becomes payable in the UK, 
if I decide to retire early but he wasn't the slightest bit interested in it.


----------



## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Bob
If one has the green EU Citizen Registration cert it automatically becomes permanent after five. There is no requirement nor reason to renew it

Caution. The TIE (residencia) is for non EU Nationals only. It is possible if you all for that you will be given the list of the requirements for that, as the staff will have 
thought you required a TIE, otherwise you would not have asked for it

NB. The requirements for EU Citizen Registration have not changed since 2007

This is the EU Official info which Spain must abide by :-

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/euro...s/registering-residence/spain/indexamp_en.htm

This is an extract :-

What you need to take

You have always to attach the following documents:

Passport or other identity document (not expired)

Oficial form (EX-18), two copies, filled and signed by the UE national.

In adition, you will have to attach other documents, depending on your situation:

salaried workers – your contract of employment or other proof of your employment status.

self-employed workers – proof of registration in the register of economic activities (censo de actividades económicas) or other proof of your employment status.

not in employment in Spain? Proof of:
(i) health cover valid in Spain and
(ii) sufficient means to support yourself and your family.

Pensioners – provide proof of public health cover.
————————————

PS. If anything else is demanded in addition to that listed ask for the complaints form.


----------



## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

Juan C said:


> Bob
> If one has the green EU Citizen Registration cert it automatically becomes permanent after five. There is no requirement nor reason to renew it
> 
> Caution. The TIE (residencia) is for non EU Nationals only. It is possible if you all for that you will be given the list of the requirements for that, as the staff will have
> ...


Thank you, but as I said in my initial post he did make me aware that there was no reason to renew it as did my Gestor in subsequent phone call. However, many people are doing this, some with success others not, take Megsmum for example.
No the staff were well aware what I wanted and the TIE didn't come into the equation at that stage and the €26.5k figure was quoted in relation to getting the update residencia tarjeta with "permanente" on it. As you say E.U Citizen registration hasn't changed since 2007 but it seems the way different regions interpret it definitely has. Complaints book....in this situation not a route I wish to take, as certainly don't wish to be red flagged on the system which may impact at a later stage.


----------



## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Bob. 

Over the past 20+ years, I have asked the CNP for the complaints book for other people several times. Each time the problem was resolved immediately without the form being completed. I still have a friendly relationship with the officers 

What anyone chooses to do is a matter for them, but failing to use a facility which is in place to assist the consumer, and then complaining here will not help anyone resolve their problem. ‘Leading a horse to water ....... ‘


----------



## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

blondebob said:


> Seems things have changed massively since then and also very hit and miss as from one office to the next, one region to another. Just threw me when the Torre del Mar office was quoting those figures already as if set in stone. Be interesting as to what actually transpires if and when the TIE applications are needed.


It is a very odd decision on the part of the Torre del Mar Comisaria to apply these criteria to people seeking permanent resident certificates, when they do not seem to be doing the same for those applying to register as residents for the first time. I know British people who have registered since the beginning of this year at Torre del Mar and they were treated as EU citizens (as indeed they should have been), and I haven't seen any accounts on social media where people applying to register at that office for the first time have been subject to the increased income requirements. It's not logical to ask people who have already been resident for 5 years or more to prove a far higher income than people who have just arrived.


----------



## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

Juan C said:


> Bob. I have asked the CNP for the complaints book for other people several times. Each time the problem was resolved immediately without the form being completed. I still have a friendly relationship with the officers
> 
> What anyone chooses to do is a matter for them, *but failing to use a facility which is in place to assist the consumer, and then complaining here *will not help anyone resolve their problem. ‘Leading a horse to water ....... ‘


Good to know your experience with the complaints book. Where was I complaining? I simply stated my experience as it happened and enquired if anyone else had experienced similar and it transpired they had. But as you say it's totally unnecessary to update the certificate to the tarjeta with "permanente" on it so I may just leave it and wait to see what happens. Just makes me question why so many have done it or are in the process of trying to do so.


----------



## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

blondebob said:


> . Just makes me question why so many have done it or are in the process of trying to do so.


I am aware of a number if gestors and similar ‘professionals’ who have incorrectly advised their clients wrongly. And then charged for the unnecessary service. ‘Nice little earner..’

Pete down the pub and Bill and Ben on various forums also get it wrong too !


----------



## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

Lynn R said:


> It is a very odd decision on the part of the Torre del Mar Comisaria to apply these criteria to people seeking permanent resident certificates, when they do not seem to be doing the same for those applying to register as residents for the first time. I know British people who have registered since the beginning of this year at Torre del Mar and they were treated as EU citizens (as indeed they should have been), and I haven't seen any accounts on social media where people applying to register at that office for the first time have been subject to the increased income requirements. It's not logical to ask people who have already been resident for 5 years or more to prove a far higher income than people who have just arrived.


Totally agree with you, but it does seem that increased financial status has been also requested in Megsmum case (albeit they wouldn't commit to a figure) also which I assume was recent and as my particular case was yesterday maybe its a new set of guidelines? Agree with you on it not being logical, but in my experience in Spain in many instances it isn't. With regard to social media all I can say is I don't spend a great deal of time on it but did notice last evening on a relevant Facebook site that there were a great many people having/had problems being asked for everything all over again to varying degrees when attempting what i set out to do yesterday. In many areas they couldn't even get an appointment. Its littered with personal accounts both good but a great many negative.


----------



## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

Juan C said:


> I am aware of a number if gestors and similar ‘professionals’ who have incorrectly advised their clients wrongly. And then charged for the unnecessary service. ‘Nice little earner..’
> 
> Pete down the pub and *Bill and Ben on various forums also get it wrong too* !


Ain't that the truth
Thankfully my Gestor gave me the same advice as you that it is unnecessary anyway.


----------



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

This is why we are not going to attempt to update ours, which were issued in 2008. We have ten years of tax records so there is no question that we are “permanent”. But if you get stuck with some jobsworth funcionario as described above, all sorts of problems can occur.


----------



## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Just as a matter of fact

In 2010 I took up my right to Irish nationality. Although I was born in U.K. my mother was born in N Ireland, thus I was legally Irish as well as British. 

At the time an Irish PP was free for over 65 year olds, which was the reason I applied for an Irish PP. 

Shortly afterwards my UK PP was due to expire, si I applied to change my nationality from U.K. to Irish on my EU Citizen Registration. My new green cert, replacing the one I was issued with in 2007, shows permanent

I think all I needed was my new Irish passport and a copy, the EX18 application form and the proof of having paid the fee. 

Of course that was long before the idea of the Brexit referendum in 2016, so It transpired i was by chance fortunate .


----------



## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

Juan C said:


> Just as a matter of fact
> 
> In 2010 I took up my right to Irish nationality. Although I was born in U.K. my mother was born in N Ireland, thus I was legally Irish as well as British.
> 
> ...


Did you not have to change your Nationality from British to Irish on the EU Citizen registration before you could get an Irish passport? My Grandfather was born in Portrush so am wondering if I am eligible (he died many yrs ago though).


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

blondebob said:


> Did you not have to change your Nationality from British to Irish on the EU Citizen registration before you could get an Irish passport? My Grandfather was born in Portrush so am wondering if I am eligible (he died many yrs ago though).



Yes , you can apply for Irish citizenship if your father was born in Portrush I have Irish citizenship as we originate from the North


----------



## Juan C (Sep 4, 2017)

Bob

A person born on the island of Ireland and their children are Irish, whether they chose to apply for a passport or not

The grandchildren of people born on the island of Ireland. can apply for Irish nationality. My son, as a grandchild, did it however it was a longish, complicated process 

I changed the nationality shown on my green cert as I did not intend to renew my British PP. however had I renewEd, or if i now renewed, my U.K. PP, I could choose to be shown as Irish or British


----------



## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

Megsmum said:


> Yes , you can apply for Irish citizenship if your father was born in Portrush I have Irish citizenship as we originate from the North


It was my Grandfather not my Father.....further research on my part required....but thanks.


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Juan C said:


> Bob.
> 
> Over the past 20+ years, I have asked the CNP for the complaints book for other people several times. Each time the problem was resolved immediately without the form being completed. I still have a friendly relationship with the officers
> 
> What anyone chooses to do is a matter for them, but failing to use a facility which is in place to assist the consumer, and then complaining here will not help anyone resolve their problem. ‘Leading a horse to water ....... ‘


Maybe you would like to phone out policía national where I have been to be told what is required. 

I’ll say it again and I’m surprised that people who have lived here for so long don’t seem to comprehend, as with everything Spanish different regions have there own rules. 

I don’t care what your area want or any other persons area requires re permanent residency, my regions has made itself perfectly clear as to what is required.


----------



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

blondebob said:


> It was my Grandfather not my Father.....further research on my part required....but thanks.


In that case it’s still possible 

Citizenship through descent from Irish grandparents
If one of your grandparents is an Irish citizen who was born in Ireland, but neither of your parents was born in Ireland, you may become an Irish citizen. You will need to have your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register – see below.May 9, 2017


Here’s the link 


https://www.citizensinformation.ie/...ish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html


ádh mór


----------



## blondebob (Aug 16, 2019)

Megsmum said:


> In that case it’s still possible
> 
> Citizenship through descent from Irish grandparents
> If one of your grandparents is an Irish citizen who was born in Ireland, but neither of your parents was born in Ireland, you may become an Irish citizen. You will need to have your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register – see below.May 9, 2017
> ...


That great cheers will have a good look at this. 

go raibh maith agat


----------

