# Changed your Mind About Mexico



## carlb

For years my wife and I have planned on retiring to Manzanillo Mexico when we retire, and while the drug wars haven't hit there like is has in other coastal areas, Acapulco, Mazatlan, PV, etc, Manzanillo is a major port, and with that you usually get some form of corruption, whether people will admit it or not. I can see things in Manzanillo gettiing worse before better. The Mexican gov't is not winning the war against the cartels, and if it gets worse in the next few years we may consider retireing somewhere else, and have considerred Ecaudor, Panama or Costa Rica. Has anyone else looked at other countries besides Mexico, and if so where and why?. We are only interested in a coastal, warm weather area , that has modern amentaties and good infrastructure, with of course the same low cost of living/housing as Manzanillo Mexico..


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## rbp

carlb said:


> For years my wife and I have planned on retiring to Manzanillo Mexico when we retire, and while the drug wars haven't hit there like is has in other coastal areas, Acapulco, Mazatlan, PV, etc, Manzanillo is a major port, and with that you usually get some form of corruption, whether people will admit it or not. I can see things in Manzanillo gettiing worse before better. The Mexican gov't is not winning the war against the cartels, and if it gets worse in the next few years we may consider retireing somewhere else, and have considerred Ecaudor, Panama or Costa Rica. Has anyone else looked at other countries besides Mexico, and if so where and why?. We are only interested in a coastal, warm weather area , that has modern amentaties and good infrastructure, with of course the same low cost of living/housing as Manzanillo Mexico..


My wife and I are like you. We were interested in retiring in Mexico but because of the violence whether its perceived or not has changed are minds. Our second choice is Panama. There are areas with hot and humid and areas that are cool and less humid. They have a good infrastructure and an excelent banking system. Prices in most areas are less than Costa Rica. The only problem I can see is in Panama City where the drivers are crazy. For that reason I am looking around the David area. David has recently upgraded their airport to accept international flights.
They even have a Costco/Price Right which carries our brand of dog food.
They welcome retirees in Panama.


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## RVGRINGO

You express common concerns these days, but are obviously basing them on media reports and your imagined scenarios as to how the 'drug wars' affect retirees in various areas. As such, all I can recommend is that you examine the validity of your assumptions, the degree of media sensationalism and that you also come on down and do some serious observation and conversation with those of us who live here. You may just find that there is no reason to change your plans.


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## carlb

RVGRINGO said:


> You express common concerns these days, but are obviously basing them on media reports and your imagined scenarios as to how the 'drug wars' affect retirees in various areas. As such, all I can recommend is that you examine the validity of your assumptions, the degree of media sensationalism and that you also come on down and do some serious observation and conversation with those of us who live here. You may just find that there is no reason to change your plans.


If your reply was directed at me, We have been to Manzanillo numerous times, even own a condo there, its the future that concerns us. I notice you are in Melaque, do you read the TomZap forum by any chance? I do occassionally and can't help but notice the increase in postings regarding crime in the area, and most postings are from people who live there. i know that Canadian/American media sensationalises things, and I usually disregard what they say, but I also follow expat postings etc, and Mexican media. If things stay the same as they are now, we will probably still retire in Manzanillo, but if they get worse, then who knows.


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## manecoon

The thing that turns me off about the David / Bouqete area is the amount of rain that they get there. Cooler yes, but have you checked out the amount of rain they get and the length of their rainy season? Still an option, but kind of wet.


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## sparks

I'm the one in Melaque and all the crime that's on TomZap is about burglaries and stolen bikes. No mafia crime here ... just small time hoodlums. Manzanillo has had it's share but really not tourist/resident related


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## tepetapan

First off, the drug wars are driven by politics. If outside interests (NOB) can convince the new Mexican President to contuine what is going on now remains to be seen but I doubt it. I expect in a few years things will be quiet and resemble the good old days.
Second, the cartels are confirmed to have moved south of the Mexico border and set up operations. The climate there can change just a rapid as it did in Mexico and end up far worse.


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## kcowan

We live in PV and there is no cartel crime here. The nearest location is Tepic close to the prison. My Spanish teacher comes from Tepic and returns there once a month. She does not feel any personal risk. I have a friend in Mazatlan and he reports that cartel crime does not impact his life there.


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## joaquinx

I believe that the OP wants to move from Mexico and is searching for a good reason to do so. I also believe that the Mexican government is winning the war, albeit, slowly. There is no turning back for the President else cede victory to the cartels and disband the government. 

If I were of his position and belief, I would simply pack up and leave rather than find a consensus.


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## RVGRINGO

I think what scares most folks from Canada, and even the USA, is the fact that in those countries we seldom shoot the bad guys dead, or at least give them a good whipping before lining the survivors up before the TV cameras. It is effective in light of a not so effective justice and incarceration system. Naturally, body count is always something that sells papers and they have no qualms about very candid photos on the front pages. Sometimes, 'The Day of The Dead' isn't just on November 2nd.


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## carlb

joaquinx said:


> I believe that the OP wants to move from Mexico and is searching for a good reason to do so. I also believe that the Mexican government is winning the war, albeit, slowly. There is no turning back for the President else cede victory to the cartels and disband the government.
> 
> If I were of his position and belief, I would simply pack up and leave rather than find a consensus.


If by OP you mean "original poster" then you are abit off target, as I stated, we are planning on retireing to Mexico when we retire, we do not currently live there on a regular basis. I would have to have a good reason to not retire there, safety being the main one. While we do own a condo in Manzanillo and go down 2-3 times a year, we are contemplating what to do if things get worse in Mexico over the next few years. When we retire we don't want to be looking over our shoulders as we walk down the street, or be worried about getting caught in the crossfire of some drug war, or be worried about being carjacked just because we want to drive somewhere out of town, etc etc. There are things that happen in Mexico that even expats who live there never hear about unless someone nob tells it to them, one can only guess why the local press doesn't print alot of what happens, especially when it involves the cartells. Our nieghbours in Manzanillo hadn't heard off the Canadian being caught in crossfire in Mazatlan until we told them about it a month later. We like Manzanillo because it is not a tourist destination like PV or Maz or Acupulco etc. Hopefully things will not get anyworse and we can retire to Manzanillo without hesitation, but we like to keep our options open, and am looking for input from others who may have considerred somewhere else.


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## tepetapan

......next few years. When we retire we don't want to be looking over our shoulders as we walk down the street, or be worried about getting caught in the crossfire of some drug war, or be worried about being carjacked just because we want to drive somewhere out of town, etc etc. There are things that happen ......
Are we still talking about Mexico since that sure sounds like areas of Chicago I visited. I have friends from Vancouver seem to think the same about their town.


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## carlb

tepetapan said:


> ......next few years. When we retire we don't want to be looking over our shoulders as we walk down the street, or be worried about getting caught in the crossfire of some drug war, or be worried about being carjacked just because we want to drive somewhere out of town, etc etc. There are things that happen ......
> Are we still talking about Mexico since that sure sounds like areas of Chicago I visited. I have friends from Vancouver seem to think the same about their town.


You are missing the point of my post, and I'm not going to try explain it any further, I don't live in Vancouver or Chicago, so your comments are moot. I think most readers can figure out why I made the posting.


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## joaquinx

Hey, carlb, I can't figure it out either. You complain about the violence and want advice on where to move outside of Mexico, then state that you want to live here because you own property. Perhaps it's best not to explain it any further.


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## carlb

joaquinx said:


> Hey, carlb, I can't figure it out either. You complain about the violence and want advice on where to move outside of Mexico, then state that you want to live here because you own property. Perhaps it's best not to explain it any further.


We bought our condo years ago, long before the drug violence in Mexico became what it is today. If it comes to Manzanillo, like it has to Mazatlan, Acapulco etc, what will that do to the value of the condo? As I stated, "*if it gets worse in the next few years, we may consider retireing somewhere else,"* I didn't say we definatley will retire somewhere else, but I am not so nieve to think that things might not get worse, so am looking at other options besides Mexico. I am not looking for advise, only opinions of other people who might have looked into somewhere other than Mexico, and why they are considerring where ever that country might be.:frusty:.


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## gringotim

carlb said:


> You are missing the point of my post, and I'm not going to try explain it any further, I don't live in Vancouver or Chicago, so your comments are moot. I think most readers can figure out why I made the posting.


I understand what you are saying, its not hard to figure out. We retire in 2 years, and Manzanillo is at the top of our list as well. We have been there many times, but we don't own anything there yet, so nothing is set in stone, and won't be buying anything, anywhere until we retire. We have been going there for years and have never had a problem, but have noticed more places with bars on the windows, but the drug gang wars are a concern and no one can predict what will happen next, the first time we went in 1999, you very seldom saw police, and they didn't carry guns out in the open, or wear bullett proof vest, but the last time they all had vest and automatic rifles in plain site every where you looked. So we are also looking at other places like Salinas Ecuador, which is the next place we are going just to check it out. If things get better overall in Mexico then we will probably still choose Manzanillo, but only time will tell.


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## chicois8

The OP states: " what will that do to the value of the condo?"

I think that says it all right there..............


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## gringotim

chicois8 said:


> The OP states: " what will that do to the value of the condo?"
> 
> I think that says it all right there..............


I think that all it says is they don't want to get stuck with a condo they can't sell, and who would? or have to sell at a loss, maybe they would need the money to buy somewhere else. Thats why we won't buy anywhere until we are retired and know for sure where we want to live. I don't understand why everyone keeps attacking carlb just because he is being cautious about his retirement plans. At one time he obviously thought enough of Manzanillo to buy a condo there, and is now having second thoughts, so what, its his life, and his money, get over it.


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## RVGRINGO

Please keep it civil, polite and helpful. I really hate making whole threads vanish; sometimes, along with some of the participants. We're all here to share information and assist each other. If you enjoy argument or 'baiting and biting', please go elsewhere.
Thanks.


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## dongringo

We all have danger thresholds. Some higher than others. Whether that danger is imagined or real does not really matter. If mine were low, I would not move to Mexico, or anywhere, from a comfortable existence elsewhere. 
You are fishing on a message board of people with a gamut of thresholds. Maybe you'll find suggestions, but not answers. 
You are in the proverbial space of between a rock and a hard place. Good luck and I am sorry I can`t offer a suggestion. 
I`m happier than a tom in a cathouse in my chosen Mexican town. Just don't ask me if I would decide to move here based on what I know today.


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## Krogl

I've been to Mexico five times now, and have decided to relocate in the next 3-4 weeks. I lived in Victoria BC, that nice wonderful city on Vancouver Island where everyone wants to retire, where in fact you have just a good a chance of getting your head bashed in walking past a 7 -11 store as you would getting into a skirmish in Mexico late at night.

Been following the this forum for awhile now, reading and watching news whenever I can. Hasn't stopped my plan from moving there. I think no matter where you are there is a risk of something. Fortunately for me I choose to not dwell on possibilities and simply live my life.


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## conorkilleen

Krogl said:


> Fortunately for me I choose to not dwell on possibilities and simply live my life.


Krogl- This basically sums up my beliefs as well. 

I cant even count the number of naysayers I have had conversations with regarding my relocation to Mexico. So much negativity and its a real downer if you choose to expose yourself to their propaganda for long periods of time. The majority of the people that I have pseudo-defended myself and my decisions against have been those who have never stepped foot in Mexico, and for some, not even out of their state. Its sad, really. But thats my humble opinion.

Having a high threshold for danger in one thing, but I must say that dwelling on things that might happen is not good for your mental health no matter where you live. 

As RV and I joke sometimes, its more likely that you will get hit by a bus while stepping off a curb in Mexico. But most times you won't, you know why? Its called self preservation. There are automatic things you do everyday that keep you out of danger that you don't even realize you are doing. Automatic reactions to situations. Looking both ways before you cross the street. Keeping a hot clothes iron away from your face. ect ect. Some may prefer to stay at home and be an armchair reporter, watch the news, speculate on events, then become the beating drum for the negativity they are brainwashed with.

I take life as it comes at me. Taking chances not to just advance and further my career, but further myself as an aware individual as well. "Our lives are shaped by opportunities, even the ones we don't take."


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## manecoon

I've been having many discussions with my wife about moving Lakeside and her #1 concern is the crime. We spent 5 wks on 2 trips last year and I thought it was great. I've read all the comments on most all the forums and find that many people tend to get worked up on anything that happens and they exaggerate. I've met many people on my 2 trips, and follow the forums daily. The interesting thing is that of the people I have met, and many of the regulars on all the forums, not 1 of them has told me personally that they have had anything happen to them, break-in / being accosted / whatever in the past year plus that I've been looking at the area. I think the only way to get over being afraid is to go there and experience it. I tend to believe that the crime is no better, or worse than most areas and one just needs to be cautious no matter where they reside.


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## circle110

First of all, carlb has the right to ask those questions. It's a legitimate concern when one is looking at a retirement abroad. However, let's put the numbers in perspective.

Lat year 23,000,000 people visited Mexico. 79 visitors were killed. I actually got that statistic of 79 from Fox News (of all places!) and even THEY confess that all but a tiny fraction of that number were involved in the drug trade. So even if we use the full number of 79 -- remember, most of them are drug business folks -- your odds as a visitor of being killed in Mexico are considerably less than being struck by lightning. If we reduce that number allowing for all the drug folks to say, 10 -- about 12%, which is a big "tiny fraction" -- you start to approach the odds of dying in a plane crash.

So, if you are visiting Mexico and not dealing in drugs, your odds of living are about as good as when you climb on a commercial airliner. I figure that the probabilities for us expats living here are roughly the same. 

Looking at the murder rate in general, the same number of people are murdered each day in the US as in Mexico. It varies by year between 45-50 per day. Now the population of the US is almost 3 times that of Mexico so that does make Mexico 3 times more dangerous. But, once again, a large percentage of those murdered in Mexico are participants in the drug trade. Many murders in the US, no doubt, are due to involvement in the drug business as well but it is a lesser percentage of the total. It is probably roughly equally dangerous to live in Mexico as the US as far as the probability of getting murdered goes, so long as you are not doing business with the narcos. If you are, then all bets are off.

Mexico does have quite a bit more petty crime like robberies and break-ins than the US. There is no doubt about that, but Mexico also doesn't see the kind of bizarre murders such as kids entering schools and gunning down their classmates.

Statistics can be manipulated to "prove" whatever you want, so take the numbers I give here as you will, but since my fiancée and I don't deal in drugs and we take reasonable precautions to protect ourselves from petty crime, we just don't live in mortal fear.

So, to answer carlb's original question: Yes, I looked at all of the popular low cost retirement locations in Latin America -- Costa Rica (I did extended Spanish study there), Ecuador, Panama, Nicaragua (I lived there for 3 months) -- but after I compared living in each place to Mexico, it was an easy choice.


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## stanburn

I live full-time in Manzanillo and feel safer here than north of the border which I return to 3 weeks every year only under extreme protest. Are there problems? yes, Do they affect my day to day life? No Am I worried about losing my investment in my house? no, because I bought a simple house in a mexican neighborhood and didn't pay a lot of money for it.

Here is my advice. Don't get your Mexican news from north of the border sources, this includes english speaking forums. Get your Mexican news from Mexican sources. I don't read Mexican newspapers to find out what is going on outside of Mexico, so the same logic applies.

Hope you resolve your doubts. Life here is good.


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## maryellen1952

*Should have left the U.S. sooner*

I’m one of the increasing pre-retirement age Americans who decided now was the time to leave the U.S. I’ve been living in Tijuana for 4 months and wish I had moved sooner! 
I’ve always lived in big cities ad don’t fid the crime here ay different from the U.S. ad have learned to take news from the U.S. media with a HUGE grain of salt. Most people my age and younger are moving south of the border and renting (rather than buying as the previous generations) so we have more flexibility to move around. 
For those considering Panama, I would do a lot of research as the country is increasingly becoming more American-controlled thru financial institutions, etc. so it is not as independent of U.S. influence as Mexico and other countries which explains why it is more expensive to live there. Just do web research and you will discover that.


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## meregirl

*Know exactly what you mean*

I am wanting to move to Mexico for a year to give it a try and see if this is a place for me. However I have been just criticized completely by everyone I know telling me how crazy I am because Mexico is so dangerous. I have been researching and reading for some time now and I get it that the danger is blown up by the US media and involves drug trafficking which doesn't involve me. Now I just had someone yesterday call me about the US professor who was kidnapped over the border near Texas. Well from what I can tell the towns near the Texas border are very dangerous but Mexico is a very large country. New York is like a pimple in size compared to Mexico but no one would call me crazy for moving there except for the cost. It is very frustrating :frusty:


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## elchante

i think that one of the things that we need to get out of all these postings is that you should not BUY a house in Mexico when you first arrive here. as rolly brook constantly points out...RENT, RENT, RENT. 

that way, if you decide that Mexico, or the area of Mexico to which you have moved, is not for you, for whatever reason, you can get out more quickly. besides, at retirement age, do you really want to tie up a big part of your savings in something that you can't immediately liquidate?


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## thehoosier

Maybe you should look into moving to the Yucatan part of mexico. It is probably the most removed from the drug war. Local government in the Yucatan has done a lot to keep the area safe for tourism. Merida, the capital of Yucatan State, has the same crime rates as Montana. Yolisto is a forum just for the Merida area and has great info on living there.


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## tepetapan

It is doubtful Merida´s crime rate is the same as Montana but if you say so I (will?) accept it. A nice selling point but .... it´s Montaña!. Veracruz state, year after year, ranks as one of the safest states in Mexico. Veracruz state has been one of the most profitable in all of Mexico for going on 100 years. Only in the last 15 years have they even really tried to promote tourism since it is such a rich (in resources) state. Mountains, rainforests and beaches are all part of this great state, something for everyone. Well over 2000 years ago the Olmecs chose Veracruz state and ever since people have lived and enjoyed the bounty of the sea, the lakes and the land. Check your maps, read the history, do your own research.


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## telcoman

I spend 4 months a year in an RV down here. If its a war zone, its the strangest one I've seen. I suppose Cuidad Juarez is, but no one retires there. First thing I read about when I got down this year was shootout in a Walmart in Pt Orchard Washington with fatalities. That was after the shooting in Tucson of course. Anyone can be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Your chance of being killed in a traffic accident driving to the corner store at home is probably far greater.


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## pappabee

It seems to me that many people are making a very interesting mistake. When those people and the American Press talk about the drug violence in Mexico they class all states as one. "The Mexican Drug Problem" and "The Mexican Safety Concerns". But when we hear about violence in the States it's the problem with one city or one State. Let's look at this from a slightly different perspective. In the past three years about 34000 people have been killed by gunfire in the entire country of Mexico. About 26000 of them have been killed in and around the US / Mexican boarder. The other 8000 cover the rest of the entire country. 

FYI in the United States from the year 2006 to 2010 these are the very interesting facts. 17000 people have died in drug related cases (mostly overdose); 20308 have died due to homicide and 29000 have died due to incidents related to firearms. (info from the US Department of State and the American Medical Assoc.)

Where would you rather be??? If my wife and I didn't feel safe we wouldn't stay here.


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## dongringo

*Content*

About 92% of U.S., Japanese and Canadian firms operating in Mexico feel that the nation’s insecurity has not shown any improvements this year compared to 2010, according to a survey released this week by the American Chamber of Commerce (AmCham) and Kroll Consulting.

The survey, undertaken among 511 companies affiliated to AmCham, the Japanese Chamber of Commerce and Industry and the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, reveals that 67% of those responding to the survey feel “less safe” than last year, 25% said they feel just as unsafe, and only 8% said they feel safer. 

Because of the insecurity outlook, 8% said they are considering moving operations to another country, and 27% is reconsidering its projects and investments in Mexico. During an AmCham event, U.S. Ambassador Carlos Pascual said only 21% of tose surveyed feels that their investment strategy in Mexico has been successful. “Their frustration is understandable”, said Pascual. 
El Economista
| El Economista


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## pappabee

OK a lot of business in Mexico are having second thoughts about safety here. BUT, where are they getting their information regarding how safe it is? They're getting much of it from the American Press. Yesterday three people were shot and killed in front of a nightclub in LA. Do you know where that was posted? It wasn't even important enough for ANY of the national news services to pick it up. If that had happened in Mexico City you'd have been able to read about it in 26 different sources. (OK so maybe only 15 - but you get the point). 
I’m not saying that Mexico doesn’t have its problems with drug gangs and gun battles. I’m also not saying that this is the safest place on earth (for that you might want to travel to Andorra). What I am saying is that we are safer here than in the States so long as we stay away from the border and take the same sensible precautions that we would take visiting any place. 
The American press has done a lot of damage to the tourist industry in Mexico. I’m not sure that I believe the figures but it was quoted that last year there 34000 people visited PV for the spring break and this year there were only 10000 scheduled to visit. 
I have friends and family that I would love to have come and visit me but each time I bring it up I hear all about the danger of being here. 
Most of the posts here have reinforced the actual safety factor here but it’s very hard to counter the loud, yellow American Press. 
Someone once said ‘if you tell a big enough lie, often enough and loud enough, people will start to believe it’. It’s happening here and IMHO it’s a shame.


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## ReefHound

pappabee said:


> FYI in the United States from the year 2006 to 2010 these are the very interesting facts. 17000 people have died in drug related cases (mostly overdose); 20308 have died due to homicide and 29000 have died due to incidents related to firearms. (info from the US Department of State and the American Medical Assoc.)


I'm not concerned with the first number since I can almost certainly eliminate myself from that first group by not doing drugs.

Are you saying that there were 49000 homicides (29000 by firearms and 20000 by other means) or that there were 29000 of which 20000 were homicide and the other 9000 justified shootings (i.e. self-defense)?

Don't forget the US population is 3x as large.


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## ReefHound

pappabee said:


> Someone once said ‘if you tell a big enough lie, often enough and loud enough, people will start to believe it’. It’s happening here and IMHO it’s a shame.


And the big lie is that the US media is over hyping the problem. The facts (according to Mexican officials) is that tourism overall is up and places where most Americans and Canadians visit like Cancun is booming. It's tourism by Mexicans that is way down and those Mexicans are not getting their fears from the US media. 

No, I really don't think corporations looking to invest internationally are getting their news from TV. I'll buy that for the average tourist but not businesses.

BTW, did you hear about those LA nightclub deaths from US media or Mexican media? I'll bet if there were 3 nightclub shootings in LA every week for a few months with the occasional head and bag of body parts left at the scene then you'd hear about it on all the major news and people would be afraid to go to LA. Ten more shot and killed in an Acapulco bar last night. That's pretty far from the border...


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## ReefHound

_MILWAUKEE, March 7, 2011 /PRNewswire/ -- Funjet Vacations announced today that statistics released by the Mexico Tourism Board show a surge in travel from Texas to the country's top beach destinations and resort areas. Despite a continued stream of negative media coverage, over 253,000 travelers visited Mexico from Texas in December and 210,000 in January compared to 224,000 and 196,000 in the previous year, respectively.

"The number of people flying out of Texas cities into Mexico is up 12 percent from last year, and December saw the most travelers for that month in a decade," said Mike Going, president of Funjet Vacations. "Year-after-year Mexico remains a top travel destination for both Funjet Vacations and the Texas market and we are optimistic about the forecast for 2011. We believe properly informed consumers will continue to desire the unique vacation experiences that only Mexico can offer."

The increase in tourism from Texas has been seen most prominently in top beach destinations and resort areas, including Cancun, Cozumel, Los Cabos, *Puerto Vallarta* and Riviera Maya, which are located in the southeast and southwest regions of the country._
Funjet Vacations Announces Surge in Travel From Texas to Mexico -- MILWAUKEE, March 7, 2011 /PRNewswire/ --


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## petem1

*Statistics About Increase in Travel to Mexico*

Just a note that this information comes from a travel agency via a news release issued through the PR Newswire, which is a vehicle for organizations to promote themselves and their messages. There is no verification of accuracy. Essentially, they can say whatever they want to. I have seen other articles that say something much different.


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## pappabee

ReefHound said:


> I'm not concerned with the first number since I can almost certainly eliminate myself from that first group by not doing drugs.
> 
> Are you saying that there were 49000 homicides (29000 by firearms and 20000 by other means) or that there were 29000 of which 20000 were homicide and the other 9000 justified shootings (i.e. self-defense)?
> 
> Don't forget the US population is 3x as large.


The stats did not say that there were 49000 homicides. They said that there were 29000 deaths due to firearms-that includes self inflected and accidents. The deaths due to homicides include all other forms of murder.


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## pappabee

ReefHound said:


> And the big lie is that the US media is over hyping the problem. The facts (according to Mexican officials) is that tourism overall is up and places where most Americans and Canadians visit like Cancun is booming. It's tourism by Mexicans that is way down and those Mexicans are not getting their fears from the US media.
> 
> No, I really don't think corporations looking to invest internationally are getting their news from TV. I'll buy that for the average tourist but not businesses.
> 
> BTW, did you hear about those LA nightclub deaths from US media or Mexican media? I'll bet if there were 3 nightclub shootings in LA every week for a few months with the occasional head and bag of body parts left at the scene then you'd hear about it on all the major news and people would be afraid to go to LA. Ten more shot and killed in an Acapulco bar last night. That's pretty far from the border...


That information came to me from a lodge brother who works for the local law enforcement. We have been having a running discussion about violence over the past year. And if you look at the LA crime figures you will see that there are many such incidents each and every week. Point being that they are only coming from one city not the entire state or country. The stats that are being quoted in the US about Mexico start at the boarder then jump to the gulf and then to the other coast and then are bundled together. 

Again as quoted in the Guadalajara Reporter the entire State of Jalisco had only 31 breakins in the entire year of 2010. OK so lets say that only 10% got reported that's 310 for the year. A lot less than most major cities in the states. I feel a lot safer walking down any street in Ajijic that I would walking down 6th street in Austin Texas or 9th street in Cleveland Ohio or Broad street in Columbus Ohio. And I've walked down all of them.


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## m55vette

I too have changed my mind about my plans to move to Mexico full time. I now want to do it sooner. I miss not being in Ajijic, my life there is so relaxed and peaceful.


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## kimo

carlb said:


> For years my wife and I have planned on retiring to Manzanillo Mexico when we retire, and while the drug wars haven't hit there like is has in other coastal areas, Acapulco, Mazatlan, PV, etc, Manzanillo is a major port, and with that you usually get some form of corruption, whether people will admit it or not. I can see things in Manzanillo gettiing worse before better. The Mexican gov't is not winning the war against the cartels, and if it gets worse in the next few years we may consider retireing somewhere else, and have considerred Ecaudor, Panama or Costa Rica. Has anyone else looked at other countries besides Mexico, and if so where and why?. We are only interested in a coastal, warm weather area , that has modern amentaties and good infrastructure, with of course the same low cost of living/housing as Manzanillo Mexico..


My wife and I love Hawaii (Waikiki area), and have been going there for over 30 years, but because we are Canadians, there is the 6 month rule, so when we retire we were going to split our time between Hawaii and Mexico, (Manzanillo), with about a month between each place back in Canada (durring the summer of coarse), but we have recently been looking into Salinas Ecuador, and from what I can see, as far as housing, and the cost of living goes, our dollars will go alot farther there, than in Manzanillo and other coastal cities. And since we aren't millionaires, or have huge pensions, we have to consider all options. We also looked at Panama, but it seems to rain alot, especially in the areas we looked at, and housing is more than Ecuador. But who knows what we will do, retirement is still a few years away.


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## circle110

The situation here in Guanajuato does not fit the statistics Reefhound posted. 

I have been coming here regularly for 10 years and, in the past, there were always many North American faces and the sound of English in the air. Now, it is all Europeans, Koreans and Japanese and very few Canadians and Americans. The Mexican business owners I know here all say the same - the North American tourists have practically stopped coming and overall tourism numbers are down. There are still a lot of Mexican tourists here but it's hard for me to say how those numbers have changed because a Mexican tourist doesn't stand out like an Anglo or Asian does so it isn't as obvious at first glance. (However, once they snap that photo of the view of El Pipila from the Jardin, I know they're tourists!)

Things may be quite different in Cancun and PV since those are pre-packaged kinds of tourist destinations but here in Guanajuato the tourism is way down and the businesses are thanking their lucky stars that the Europeans and Asians keep coming.


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## ReefHound

petem1 said:


> Just a note that this information comes from a travel agency via a news release issued through the PR Newswire, which is a vehicle for organizations to promote themselves and their messages. There is no verification of accuracy. Essentially, they can say whatever they want to. I have seen other articles that say something much different.


They sourced them to the Mexican govt. Feel free to post your sources saying otherwise.


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## ReefHound

circle110 said:


> The situation here in Guanajuato does not fit the statistics Reefhound posted.


The statistics I posted weren't for Guanajuato. 

Maybe your anecdotal observations count for more than government statistics. I'm not saying there aren't sectors that are more affected than others. Any destination one would drive to is probably hurting. This would especially include the RV industry. 

For as safe as Mexico might be in most parts, especially with regards to non-cartel crime, I doubt anyone here would suggest it is particularly safe along the border. Unfortunately, to get to the interior in a vehicle one has to drive though that border area. 

It would help if flights were more economical to places like Guadalajara and Leon and Morelia. I can fly Houston to D.F. for $350 USD round trip, all taxes included. It is more like $650 to those other places. I last checked a month ago so with the spike in fuel it's probably even more now.


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## Guest

*Non-air options between San Antonio and MX*

I just returned from an extended trip to the US, and am glad to be back and safe here in MX. Too much crime, too many rules, too many hardass police officers and rude drivers in the Midwest.  And no one smiled in public while I was there either. What a grim place.

Another option is taking Amtrak from Houston to San Antonio ($32), then Omnibus from San Antonio through the Laredo crossing (the border crossing via bus is painless, and simple), and on to Monterrey in the same bus(US$40). The same bus continues on from Laredo, and they just switch drivers at a brief stop before the border crossing. Then a secure taxi to the Monterrey airport to fly to Guadalajara (US$171) or other cities in Mexico at a reasonable cost. Total for this trip = $243.

The Omnibus bus station in San Antonio is only about a mile away from the train station and is located very close to the Alamo and the Senda/Turimex bus terminal (the other bus line running to Monterrey) in a safe tourist area. All are within 3 blocks of each other. Taxi cost from the train to the Alamo area is about $6. There are restaurants in this area, and it is a safe area to walk around. There is also a wide range of hotels to choose from here.

One can continue on from Monterrey via bus for much less, but the trip is very long and hard without overnight stops at a hotel for some sleep in a normal bed and relaxation. I spoke with the San Antonio station manager and questioned the wisdom of traveling overnight through the border zone to Monterrey, but she assured me that they have not had any incidents or problems with their buses on this leg. I was the only ****** on the bus.

My trip was uneventful and easy. The bus stopped about 45 minutes south of San Antonio at a nice Tex-Mex restaurant for a 30 minute lunch stop. Less than 2 hours later we were at the border for about 45 minutes, and then on to Monterrey, arriving about 2 1/2 hours later.

Omnibus has buses leaving San Antonio at 10:30 am, mid-day, late afternoon and several more between 10:30pm and 1am. The trip between San Antonio and Monterrey takes about 6 1/2 to 7 hours depending on the time spent at the border. Crossing the border via bus was painless, and there is a special lane/area just for buses. My bus (on a weekday) was only about 1/3 full, but I was told that on weekends and around holidays, they may be close to full. 

The Monterrey bus station is a real armpit with very little to offer in the way of food other than junk food. For the richest city in Mexico, I was surprised, but then again, the elite or most foreigners aren't traveling through there either. The bus station might be difficult to navigate without some Spanish skills.

Flights from Monterrey depart at 8 am and arrive in Guadalajara at 9:20am. I checked Aeromexico for flights from Monterrey.


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## jwilliams15

m55vette said:


> I too have changed my mind about my plans to move to Mexico full time. I now want to do it sooner. I miss not being in Ajijic, my life there is so relaxed and peaceful.


 I love this and sympathize. Good luck to you!


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## ReefHound

GringoCArlos said:


> Another option is taking Amtrak from Houston to San Antonio ($32), then Omnibus from San Antonio through the Laredo crossing (the border crossing via bus is painless, and simple), and on to Monterrey in the same bus(US$40). The same bus continues on from Laredo, and they just switch drivers at a brief stop before the border crossing. Then a secure taxi to the Monterrey airport to fly to Guadalajara (US$171) or other cities in Mexico at a reasonable cost. Total for this trip = $243.


One can take a bus directly from Houston to the interior. As I have done many times. Transportes Juan Chaves, Autobuses Garcia, and Pioneer are some of the ones I have used. They typically leave Houston around 8pm and are in Queretaro by noon. Sometimes there is a bus change in Matehuala, sometimes not.

None of them switched drivers at Laredo though they always stopped by the road just before the bridge coming back and waited for a new driver. Me and my wife often joked about the unbalanced logistics of this, wondering how the drivers from Houston ever get back to Houston.

All but once we "passed a hat" just before crossing into Mexico and were able to enter without stopping. Sure beats lugging all our bags off and going through x-ray. Although I was usually the only ****** and felt bad about holding everyone up so I could get my tourist visa. 

The buses still drive through the border area and are as much if not more of a target as cars. I see accounts about once a month where these buses get stopped and robbed, a few times have resulted in people getting shot. The bus reps will never tell you this. And truth is, as with driving in a car, on any given route it is a rare occurrence. Thousands of people travel along the main routes every day without incident. Still, it happens.

The problem with busing to Monterrey and then flying is the limits on luggage. In fact, the reason we quit taking the bus and started driving was so we could bring more stuff. We usually stuff the van chock full of goodies for relatives. And it's just a lot more pleasant environment. I'd rather bear the burden of driving and be able to control the temperature and radio, stop when and where I want, not wonder who was slobbering last night on the seat cushion I'm sleeping on tonight, not have to smell people who haven't bathed in a few weeks, etc.


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## kcowan

We live in PV for 7 months, then Europe for a month, then Vancouver for 4 months. Our cost of living has declined by 23% since we have been living in PV all winter. And that includes living high and generously giving to charities. We feel no personal risk.

PV is on the visitors circuit so we now have the spring break crowd here.

My Spanish teacher is from Tepic and she says that gangs are a problem there because of the prison nearby. She lives in Nuevo Vallarta with her Italian husband but she will not travel the highways at night near Tepic because of gang activity.

We drive near Tepic on the way to Guadalajara but we always pass through during the day. OTOH I avoid the downtown east side of Vancouver at night.


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## rosfreed

We've been in Mazatlan for the winter, living in our 5th wheel, and are planning to stay in Mexico, we just got our FM3's. I have lived in Spain, Portugal, the US, and Costa Rica for the last 4 years, and I feel a lot safer here than in Costa Rica. Here as far as I have seen there is very little crime. In CR there are constant house break ins, armed robberies and car break ins, gangs arrive in restaurants and rob everyone of money and jewelry, and the police do nothing. The roads are death traps, the trucks have no brakes and bald tires, and bridges collapse all the time and take months to repair. There is no culture, no entertainment, no historic buildings, no music, no dance, and unless you are a gardener, writer, bird watcher (or maybe a drunk) there is nothing to do. I speak pretty good Spanish, I am British, and am used to life in foreign cultures.....I wish I had come to Mexico years ago. Costa Rica has beautiful scenery, but sitting on a palm fringed 5 mile sweep of stunning deserted beach gets lonely after a while. I love Mexico, and Mazatlan is the most pleasant beach city I have ever visited. Lovely historic downtown, great restaurants, the advantage of choosing a Mexican lifestyle/evening out or a "******"....and have the enjoyment of switching from one to the other at will. 
I visited Panama city panama, and Bocas del Toro, too. I have no idea why anyone would choose Panama or Costa Rica when there is fascinating historic Mexico to explore. And it is very expensive and difficult to get residency in Costa Rica. In Mexico it is so easy you don't even need an attorney. 
I think the US government are worried about the huge flow of money leaving the US as people retire, if they can scare folk away from Mexico they've won as most people who retire to Costa Rica only stick it out about 3-4 years. Once you've lived here in Mexico, you are hooked for life......I loved the US, we lived there for 16 years, but now I don't even want to go back for a visit.....diesel here is less than $3.00 a gallon, eating out is inexpensive, shopping is great, I'm paying 5 pesos a kilo for tomatoes right now. Life here is so much fun, and of course, the weather is fantastic. Come to Mexico!


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## tepetapan

Rosfreed: In your last paragraph you nailed it perfectly. Many who live in Mexico see what is happening and comment on it regularly. In the end Mexico will prevail as the number one retiree destination for those NOB. Not even a campaign of negitivity will be able to change the fact that Mexico is the very best place to retire.


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## cesar&jody

These questions kind of hit a nerve with me, i mean i completly understand why people can be concerned, the media is the devil! however, ive been here in san jose del cabo for a year now and have zero worries! In canada, far worse things have happend, even to me! And i feel way more safe here then i have ever in my life. and no, i dont live in a gated community, or a condo with security, i live downtown in an appartment! I walk to the store when im thursty, i get a latenight hotdog or taco from the cart at the end of the street, and i dont walk on pins and needles! I go to the clubs and i leave my car door unlocked! now maybe it sounds like im pushing it, but i just dont live in fear here! People are nice here, and appreciate things more here, canada and the u.s have become so korrupt and have far more dangerous places then here in cabo. now im only speaking on behalf of baja california sur, i mean, i probably wouldnt travel to the border towns and walk around, just like you wouldnt travel to lets say south central LA or vancouvers downtown eastside!! or even more, you wouldnt travel to minniapolis because you heard of crime happening in the bronx ny! yes juárez has some problems, but dont not travel to PV or Cabo or wherever becasue of crime that is happening 3000 miles away!! Mexico is great, and where i live it only rains maybe 3 times a year! Its truly paradise!! and i dont regret for a second that ive made this decision!!


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## gringotim

kcowan said:


> What I like is that suddenly everyone thinks we are brave. Plus the prices are a lot better.


For some reason this posting was edited, the reason being you can't use "competing services", since we don't know what was deleted, and for future refferance for the rest of us, could the moderator elaborate, does a "competing service" mean the name of another expat forum or ?, Don't want to waste time writing something if its going to be deleted. Gracias


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## jojo

gringotim said:


> For some reason this posting was edited, the reason being you can't use "competing services", since we don't know what was deleted, and for future refferance for the rest of us, could the moderator elaborate, does a "competing service" mean the name of another expat forum or ?, Don't want to waste time writing something if its going to be deleted. Gracias



It means a competing sites, other expat forums. Have a look at the rules to see what is and isnt allowed on here. We dont like advert links, altho if someone asks a question and a regular poster can recommend someone then its fine. We try not to be too strict, but at the same time, we try to keep the forum unbiased, free from adverts and helpful at the same time. 



Jo xxx


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## gringotim

jojo said:


> It means a competing sites, other expat forums. Have a look at the rules to see what is and isnt allowed on here. We dont like advert links, altho if someone asks a question and a regular poster can recommend someone then its fine. We try not to be too strict, but at the same time, we try to keep the forum unbiased, free from adverts and helpful at the same time.
> 
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Gracias, I thought thats what it meant, which is why I was confused, I know I have seen other forums mentioned, most recently on March 2, when carlb mentioned another forum, but it wasn't deleted, I guess it depends on what the context of the posting is.


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## jojo

gringotim said:


> Gracias, I thought thats what it meant, which is why I was confused, I know I have seen other forums mentioned, most recently on March 2, when carlb mentioned another forum, but it wasn't deleted, I guess it depends on what the context of the posting is.



....... or if our attention is drawn to it!! We try our best, but we do miss the occasional misdemeanour lol!!! What thread LOL!!??? 


Jo xxxx


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## carlb

gringotim said:


> Gracias, I thought thats what it meant, which is why I was confused, I know I have seen other forums mentioned, most recently on March 2, when carlb mentioned another forum, but it wasn't deleted, I guess it depends on what the context of the posting is.


I think it depends on which moderator reads the posting, and how they interpret the rules, and / or which forum it is. Like you, I read and post on the Mexico, America and Canada forum, and I do see a difference between the 3 as to what is and isn't allowed, myself and others have mentioned competing forums on all 3 , but this was the first I have heard of a competing forum being deleted. On one of the 3 mentioned forums someone can critisize a moderators comments without out a problem, but on another they are edited, warned and threatened with being banned, Oh well, live and learn.


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## circle110

I got "busted" for putting a link to another forum but not for mentioning it, which I was allowed to do in another post. That may be the difference - a link versus just referring to another forum site.


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## jojo

carlb said:


> I think it depends on which moderator reads the posting, and how they interpret the rules, and / or which forum it is. Like you, I read and post on the Mexico, America and Canada forum, and I do see a difference between the 3 as to what is and isn't allowed, myself and others have mentioned competing forums on all 3 , but this was the first I have heard of a competing forum being deleted. On one of the 3 mentioned forums someone can critisize a moderators comments without out a problem, but on another they are edited, warned and threatened with being banned, Oh well, live and learn.


Sorry and we're not trying to be too harsh. I guess we all interpret the rules using common sense - and we all have varying degrees of that lol!!! I suppose the way I look at it is that its not good for the forum to "advertise" other forums and its not nice to run them down either. So its best not to mention em! One things for sure, this is a good, informative and friendly forum and thats the important thing

Jo xxx


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## jojo

circle110 said:


> I got "busted" for putting a link to another forum but not for mentioning it, which I was allowed to do in another post. That may be the difference - a link versus just referring to another forum site.


:boxing::boxing:

Jo xxx


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## carlb

jojo said:


> Sorry and we're not trying to be too harsh. I guess we all interpret the rules using common sense - and we all have varying degrees of that lol!!! I suppose the way I look at it is that its not good for the forum to "advertise" other forums and its not nice to run them down either. So its best not to mention em! One things for sure, this is a good, informative and friendly forum and thats the important thing
> 
> Jo xxx


I agree, but anyone wanting to learn of other forums can just Google, however I find that some moderators like to question and put down things said by us normal folk, but if we in turn question something they say, its a big no no, it doesn't seem fair, because sometimes the moderator is wrong, and people might believe what they say, and if we don't get to question it, it could have someone believing the wrong info.


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## TundraGreen

jojo said:


> Sorry and we're not trying to be too harsh. I guess we all interpret the rules using common sense - and we all have varying degrees of that lol!!! I suppose the way I look at it is that its not good for the forum to "advertise" other forums and its not nice to run them down either. So its best not to mention em! One things for sure, this is a good, informative and friendly forum and thats the important thing
> 
> Jo xxx


I don't really see that it hurts this forum to mention other forums. It is not a zero sum game. More significantly, I post on a number of forums and this one seems to have the most aggressive moderation, editing or deleting posts because they don't fit a moderator's idea of what should be allowed. My experience has been the editing goes way beyond any rules that I have found. I find that it is definitely a "good and informative" forum, but I haven't found it to be the "friendliest" mainly because of the heavy handed moderation that, in my opinion, takes away some of the character of the exchanges and reduces it to more of a "just the facts, nothing but the facts" kind of place.


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## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> Sorry and we're not trying to be too harsh. I guess we all interpret the rules using common sense - and we all have varying degrees of that lol!!! I suppose the way I look at it is that its not good for the forum to "advertise" other forums and its not nice to run them down either. So its best not to mention em! One things for sure, this is a good, informative and friendly forum and thats the important thing
> 
> Jo xxx


actually aren't we (as mods) all 'on the same page' as to what a competing service is?

any expat forum or website which contains one - that's pretty much set in stone


we can't read every word of every post though, so we are grateful to members who report posts which break the rules


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## xabiaxica

carlb said:


> I agree, but anyone wanting to learn of other forums can just Google, however I find that some moderators like to question and put down things said by us normal folk, but if we in turn question something they say, its a big no no, it doesn't seem fair, because sometimes the moderator is wrong, and people might believe what they say, and if we don't get to question it, it could have someone believing the wrong info.


of course you can correct a moderator if the info they give is incorrect - we are human too & aren't all-knowing

I'm in Spain - there are things about living in Spain which I know a lot about, and things (like matriculating cars -I don't drive) I know nothing about - I simply don't get involved in car threads - but would maybe just have a quick look to see if any rules are broken

moderators don't know everything and our 'job' isn't to answer every question or even to get involved in every discussion

it is just to make sure the rules are followed


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## xabiaxica

TundraGreen said:


> I don't really see that it hurts this forum to mention other forums. It is not a zero sum game. More significantly, I post on a number of forums and this one seems to have the most aggressive moderation, editing or deleting posts because they don't fit a moderator's idea of what should be allowed. My experience has been the editing goes way beyond any rules that I have found. I find that it is definitely a "good and informative" forum, but I haven't found it to be the "friendliest" mainly because of the heavy handed moderation that, in my opinion, takes away some of the character of the exchanges and reduces it to more of a "just the facts, nothing but the facts" kind of place.


yes, I think a lot of us use other forums & they all have their own personalities

there really is no reason for this one to be unfriendly though


have a look at some of the other 'countries' & I think you'll see that on the whole it's a pretty light-hearted & friendly place while still being informative, without any heavy handed moeration

as for mentioning other forums & posting links - thems just the rules

anyway - :focus:


you clearly didn't change your mind abput Mexico - what brought you there?

I suspect if I was from NOB instead of the UK I might well have ended up there instead of Spain


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## carlb

carlb said:


> I agree, but anyone wanting to learn of other forums can just Google, however I find that some moderators like to question and put down things said by us normal folk, but if we in turn question something they say, its a big no no, it doesn't seem fair, because sometimes the moderator is wrong, and people might believe what they say, and if we don't get to question it, it could have someone believing the wrong info.


Regular readers of this Mexico forum, like me , have probably noticed that a peticular moderator had not said anything about this discussion. (I won't mention his name, but I am sure we all know who I am talking about). I thought this was rather strange, especially considdering all the warnings, deletions etc we have all come too familiar with. so I looked at the list of moderators, and his name is no longer there. Does this mean this forum might become fun again, or is it just temporary?


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## petem1

*Moderator Change?*

I too look forward to more of an open exchange of ideas and opinions and less of the control mentality and the "my way or the highway" approach.


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## xabiaxica

can I just remind everyone that pretty much the ONLY thing that can't be discussed openly on the forum is Moderators' actions/decisions, according to forum rules - so any more posts along those lines will indeed be deleted

that includes former moderators


feel free to have an open exchange of ideas & opinions about anything else Mexico related though


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## pappabee

Since this is the Mexico forum why do we have a moderator from Spain? And what happened to our old moderator RVGringo? Or do all moderators check all forums?

Not being nasty just asking a question.


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## jojo

pappabee said:


> Since this is the Mexico forum why do we have a moderator from Spain? And what happened to our old moderator RVGringo? Or do all moderators check all forums?
> 
> Not being nasty just asking a question.



All mods cover all forums! RV has alot on at the moment so has taken a sabatical, so we're keeping an eye on things - well, the language is the same lol!!!!

Jo xxx


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## carlb

xabiachica said:


> can I just remind everyone that pretty much the ONLY thing that can't be discussed openly on the forum is Moderators' actions/decisions, according to forum rules - so any more posts along those lines will indeed be deleted
> 
> that includes former moderators
> 
> 
> feel free to have an open exchange of ideas & opinions about anything else Mexico related though


Fair enough, i just hope entire threads aren't deleted because of one persons comments, now that wouldn't be fair.


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## jojo

carlb said:


> Fair enough, i just hope entire threads aren't deleted because of one persons comments, now that wouldn't be fair.



Stick to the rules, get on with your conversations and it'll be alright  !!!!

Jo xx


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## ReefHound

Pappabee, now that is pretty ballsy to ask about a mod's status by name one post after a mod said no more. :eyebrows:

Now back on topic, what was this thread about? Oh yeah, changing your mind about Mexico, I do that often depending on developments. I think the cartel violence, real and perceived, is having a significant effect on Mexico but it is forcing Mexico to make some dramatic changes in fighting corruption that will pay off in spades once the cartel problem is under control.


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## pappabee

ReefHound said:


> Pappabee, now that is pretty ballsy to ask about a mod's status by name one post after a mod said no more. :eyebrows:
> 
> Now back on topic, what was this thread about? Oh yeah, changing your mind about Mexico, I do that often depending on developments. I think the cartel violence, real and perceived, is having a significant effect on Mexico but it is forcing Mexico to make some dramatic changes in fighting corruption that will pay off in spades once the cartel problem is under control.


I'm sorry if I offended anyone but I was under the impression that this forum was for the exchange of information and all I was asking was for some of it
FYI my post was made prior to any other comments saying that was no more. It just got posted out of order. 

:focus: I truly do hope that the Mexican Government is able to correct some of it's own flaws but whatever its flaws I still find a lot of people who come down here for a visit and decide to stay. That in itself says a lot about this country and its wonderful people.:clap2:

I still go back to the hippie question of the '60s, In what country would you rather be? And I can't think of one.


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## dizzyizzy

pappabee said:


> I'm sorry if I offended anyone but I was under the impression that this forum was for the exchange of information and all I was asking was for some of it
> FYI my post was made prior to any other comments saying that was no more. It just got posted out of order.
> 
> :focus: I truly do hope that the Mexican Government is able to correct some of it's own flaws but whatever its flaws I still find a lot of people who come down here for a visit and decide to stay. That in itself says a lot about this country and its wonderful people.:clap2:
> 
> I still go back to the hippie question of the '60s, In what country would you rather be? And I can't think of one.


:focus: 

I miss Mexico so much and I still hope I can retire there one day. But for now, being overseas is better for me. I miss my family, friends, and the food... oh, the food....  but being a Northerner, I am very familiar with the problems of the region, and since I don't like Mexico City anymore (lived there 5 years, it was great, but don't want to do it again), I really have to wait until things get better in North Mexico (Monterrey/Saltillo) before I can contemplate going back there. For now I just know that I am better off overseas. 

However my situation is different, I am in my 30's and I still need to save money, so being away and earning on foreign currencies works well for me  Hopefully one day I will have plenty of money saved that will go a long way in my beloved Mexico, so I can retire early and live off my hard earned savings 

Hopefully by then the situation will be better, but realistically speaking I still give it 7 or 10 years before things improve. Also USA needs to do their own part and stop blaming Mexico and start working with us instaed. Unless the hunger for drugs from the USA stops, narcotics will continue to flow there, either from Mexico or from somewhere else...


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## ReefHound

dizzyizzy said:


> Hopefully by then the situation will be better, but realistically speaking I still give it 7 or 10 years before things improve. Also USA needs to do their own part and stop blaming Mexico and start working with us instaed. Unless the hunger for drugs from the USA stops, narcotics will continue to flow there, either from Mexico or from somewhere else...


If you're waiting for drug consumption to disappear you might as well forget about it. And while that is a convenient scapegoat, it doesn't explain the violence. U.S. drug consumption peaked in the 70's and 80's and we didn't have this violence then. In fact, looking at the monthly usage numbers it is apparent that most illicitly produced and distributed drugs are significantly down in consumption in recent years. Drug Use Estimates | Drug War Facts


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## dizzyizzy

ReefHound said:


> If you're waiting for drug consumption to disappear you might as well forget about it. And while that is a convenient scapegoat, it doesn't explain the violence. U.S. drug consumption peaked in the 70's and 80's and we didn't have this violence then. In fact, looking at the monthly usage numbers it is apparent that most illicitly produced and distributed drugs are significantly down in consumption in recent years. Drug Use Estimates | Drug War Facts


Very interesting numbers. So marihuana is up but coke and crack are down. I disagree on the fact that the decline on the consumption of narcotics in the USA does not explain the violence though. Especially if there is a decline on demand, I can imagine the drug cartels are fighting hard to keep their 'market share'. Believe me, these people are not killing each other over sales of lollipops 

Drug cartel violence has gotten much worse partially as a consequence of all the fake 'zetas' and similar wannabes after the original 'zetas' got all killed one by one. But I believe that topic is worth a new thread because is quite complex. But is definitely drug related.


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## kazslo

ReefHound said:


> If you're waiting for drug consumption to disappear you might as well forget about it. And while that is a convenient scapegoat, it doesn't explain the violence. U.S. drug consumption peaked in the 70's and 80's and we didn't have this violence then. In fact, looking at the monthly usage numbers it is apparent that most illicitly produced and distributed drugs are significantly down in consumption in recent years. Drug Use Estimates | Drug War Facts


Then what in your opinion is the reason for the violence, and what is the solution? Putting all these statistics aside (because for any point, a statistic supporting it can be found), what really is your true opinion on all of this - like how safe you feel at your home in Mexico, in your community?


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## ReefHound

dizzyizzy said:


> Very interesting numbers. So marihuana is up but coke and crack are down. I disagree on the fact that the decline on the consumption of narcotics in the USA does not explain the violence though. Especially if there is a decline on demand, I can imagine the drug cartels are fighting hard to keep their 'market share'. Believe me, these people are not killing each other over sales of lollipops


Interesting, so reduced drug consumption leads to violence and increased drug consumption leads to violence. What to do?

kazslo, that's more than a paragraph, way too much for this thread...


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## dizzyizzy

ReefHound said:


> Interesting, so reduced drug consumption leads to violence and increased drug consumption leads to violence. What to do?
> 
> kazslo, that's more than a paragraph, way too much for this thread...


more like, drug consumption 'eventually' leads to violence. Just ask Colombia! 

What to do, that's the question. Obviously something else because what is being done now is clearly not working.


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## conorkilleen

this thread would have been locked yesterday. Kinda going off topic.


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## TundraGreen

dizzyizzy said:


> more like, drug consumption 'eventually' leads to violence. Just ask Colombia!
> 
> What to do, that's the question. Obviously something else because what is being done now is clearly not working.


Part of the solution would be to legalize all these recreational drugs in both Mexico and the US. It wouldn't completely solve the problem just as ending prohibition didn't make the Mafia go away. They just branched out into other criminal activities. Similarly, the cartels are pretty entrenched and if they couldn't make money in illegal drugs they would probably ramp up their other product lines, protection etc. However, legalization would get rid of some of the negatives associated with drug usage and could be a big source of revenue for both the US and Mexico if it were taxed. Unfortunately, in my view, neither country seems very close to taking that approach, although there are baby steps that way going on on both sides of the border.


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## carlb

TundraGreen said:


> Part of the solution would be to legalize all these recreational drugs in both Mexico and the US. It wouldn't completely solve the problem just as ending prohibition didn't make the Mafia go away. They just branched out into other criminal activities. Similarly, the cartels are pretty entrenched and if they couldn't make money in illegal drugs they would probably ramp up their other product lines, protection etc. However, legalization would get rid of some of the negatives associated with drug usage and could be a big source of revenue for both the US and Mexico if it were taxed. Unfortunately, in my view, neither country seems very close to taking that approach, although there are baby steps that way going on on both sides of the border.


One has to remember, Canada also plays a part in the North American drug problems. Over the years, numerous tunnells have been found going from Canada to the U.S. We also have the gang shooting and wars trying to take control of the drug markets. Sure, we don't have mass killings or beheadings, but years ago, neither did Mexico. While not as big a market as the U.S, its still in the billions of dollars. Just like in Mexico, there are areas in Canada I wouldn't live because of drug and gang violence.


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## kcowan

Well I was posting a link to a forum that I thought would genuinely help and I have no commercial interest in anything in Mexico but like was already stated the forum mods tend to be arbitrary.

This is a fact of this forum and you just have to be acceptable to the rules of engagement.

I fully expect this post to be deleted and I might be banned so I will say goodbye...


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## kcowan

carlb said:


> Just like in Mexico, there are areas in Canada I wouldn't live because of drug and gang violence.


Where would that be?

(said as a safe inhabitant of Vancouver)


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## TundraGreen

conorkilleen said:


> this thread would have been locked yesterday. Kinda going off topic.


A discussion of the drug related violence seems fairly relevant to people changing their mind about Mexico to me. It is certainly what everyone who doesn't live in Mexico asks everyone who does.


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## Salto_jorge

That is interesting about tunnels between Canada and the USA.

What direction are the drugs and people moving. Its the first time I have heard about this.

It seems like the tunnels in the news are between the US and Mexico.


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## kcowan

Salto_jorge said:


> That is interesting about tunnels between Canada and the USA.
> 
> What direction are the drugs and people moving. Its the first time I have heard about this.
> 
> It seems like the tunnels in the news are between the US and Mexico.


I think the money and guns head north and the BC Bud heads south. reportedly some of the best bud in the world!


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## gringotim

kcowan said:


> Where would that be?
> 
> (said as a safe inhabitant of Vancouver)


The last one I remember was in 2005 between BC and Washignton, you can find it on Google. but have heard of them in other places over the years, but its probably like grow ops, there are more they don't know about, than do know about. And if they can build tunnells under the US/Mexican border thats constantly being watched, then you know they can build them under the Canada/US border that is mostly thru unpopulated areas. Just like they use helicopters to carry bundles of pot over the border. When a 2 million dollar home in West Van can be used as a grow op and nobody knows about it until the cops raid it, it shows how un-obsevant people are, or at least unwilling to report it.


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## nmhuni

[
Hi, I do not know much about Manzanillo, but I have been living in Chicxulub Puerto, with my children, for 3 years. If you like warm coastal communities, this may be one to consider. It is a very safe area. The yucatan penninsula seems to be the safest area in mexico. The mexican goverment is investing a lot of money here. We have gotten 3 new docks in the area, streets are being paved, there are plans for a high speed train from Merida to Chichen Itza, etc. We are about 4 miles from Progreso, where the cruise ships dock. We have all ammenities, banks, internet, etc. Hope this gives you more info.


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