# Energy Performance Certificate



## snikpoh

As some will already have spotted, Spain is (once again) considering the introduction of Energy Performance Certificates (EPC).

It is looking as though this will actually go through this time and is scheduled for June 1st 2013.

This will mean that anyone selling a property in Spain, or any landlord renting property, will require a certificate.

It is not clear yet who will be able to carry out this work but it has been suggested that Architects will do it. It's also unclear as to what it will cost. If it's anything like other countries, then the cost will drop rapidly once people are aware of their need. Early indications are that a certificate could cost from 250 - 600 euros plus IVA!


So, a couple of questions; who will do the work and what will it cost?

I have asked a couple of architects and aparejadors that I know and they haven't a clue - so another piece of well-planned legislation then!!


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## Madliz

I have heard anything from a few hundreds to several thousand euros, depending, of course, on the size of property.

I have my house on the market and can ill afford ANYTHING at the moment. Unfortunately, it's an EU law and I won't be able to sell without it, come June. Wouldn't it be wonderful if politicians did things that people wanted, for a change. I don't remember anyone clamouring for this, like so many laws that are foisted upon us.

"It'll save x in energy" they say - no it won't, because people cannot afford the expense of changing anything in these troubled times. The government, of course, will rake in VAT on all the bills.


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## 90199

I wonder if it will apply to us, we do not have, nor need, any form of heating or air-conditioning whatsoever.


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## Madliz

After June 1st, 2013, anyone wanting to sell or rent their property in Spain has to have the certificate or risk fines.


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## xabiaxica

Madliz said:


> After June 1st, 2013, anyone wanting to sell or rent their property in Spain has to have the certificate or risk fines.


we've been hearing about this - do you have a link to something official?


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## snikpoh

Madliz said:


> I have heard anything from a few hundreds to several thousand euros, depending, of course, on the size of property.
> 
> I have my house on the market and can ill afford ANYTHING at the moment. Unfortunately, it's an EU law and I won't be able to sell without it, come June. Wouldn't it be wonderful if politicians did things that people wanted, for a change. I don't remember anyone clamouring for this, like so many laws that are foisted upon us.
> 
> "It'll save x in energy" they say - no it won't, because people cannot afford the expense of changing anything in these troubled times. The government, of course, will rake in VAT on all the bills.


Not yet it's not (at least not in Spain).

It is currently proposed. The thoughts are that it will get approved in April for implementation June 1st. But then it has been proposed since 2008 - it just seems more likely this time.



Hepa said:


> I wonder if it will apply to us, we do not have, nor need, any form of heating or air-conditioning whatsoever.


I presume it will even though you're not on the mainland - it's nothing to do with what method of heating you have but rather about the performance of the structure (I think).


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## 90199

Sometimes Spain legislates and because of our location and being a zone of special exemption we get exempted.


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## Madliz

This from idealista:

http://http://www.idealista.com/news/archivo/2013/02/07/0575589-el-gobierno-da-un-paso-mas-para-la-aprobacion-definitiva-del-certificado-energetico

http://http://www.idealista.com/news/archivo/2013/02/13/0578255-el-certificado-energetico-para-vender-o-alquilar-vivienda-podria-ser-obligatorio-a-partir-del-1-d?page=2

and IDAE:

http://http://www.idae.es/index.php/id.25/mod.pags/mem.detalle

I have been in touch with this company who were extremely helpful, although regretfully are not in my area:

http://http://www.homecomforts.es/ENERGY_CERTIFICATES.php

Apparently all this stems from the Kyoto Protocol and I have read that Spain is the last EU country to bring in the certificates. Also, yes, it is not law yet, but is expected to receive final approval in April, with June 1st being the expected date for their requirement.


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## gus-lopez

But it is the fines that they are proposing if you don't have one within the prescribed period. Which is on sale or rented now . 7 days from introduction of law to apply & a further 3 weeks to obtain.
If you propose putting up for sale or renting then has to be in place before.
I was reading somewhere this a.m. that fines would possibly be 0-600€ not having one. 600-3000€ still not having after being fined the first time. 3000-100,000€ to teach you a lesson if you are still without one.
Sounds like the pikey's are after the fines as there are not enough people able to process in that period of time. Then again it was supposed to be brought in on 1st January & was put off. Then again it is going to have to be implemented as Spain have got to do it as EU fines for non-implementation are imminent ! :rofl:


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## snikpoh

Madliz said:


> This from idealista:
> 
> http://http://www.idealista.com/news/archivo/2013/02/07/0575589-el-gobierno-da-un-paso-mas-para-la-aprobacion-definitiva-del-certificado-energetico
> 
> http://http://www.idealista.com/news/archivo/2013/02/13/0578255-el-certificado-energetico-para-vender-o-alquilar-vivienda-podria-ser-obligatorio-a-partir-del-1-d?page=2
> 
> and IDAE:
> 
> http://http://www.idae.es/index.php/id.25/mod.pags/mem.detalle
> 
> I have been in touch with this company who were extremely helpful, although regretfully are not in my area:
> 
> http://http://www.homecomforts.es/ENERGY_CERTIFICATES.php
> 
> Apparently all this stems from the Kyoto Protocol and I have read that Spain is the last EU country to bring in the certificates. Also, yes, it is not law yet, but is expected to receive final approval in April, with June 1st being the expected date for their requirement.



Thanks for the links - unfortunately they don't work and have to be 'manipulated'.

Does anyone know how to get a certificate? I too rang the same company but, like you, was told I was out of their area!


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## thrax

I spoke to our landlord having seen this thread and he knows nothing about it. Total confusion on his part. He is Spanish and I suspect he will do absolutely nothing about it, if his laughter was anything to go by.


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## Pesky Wesky

thrax said:


> I spoke to our landlord having seen this thread and he knows nothing about it. Total confusion on his part. He is Spanish and I suspect he will do absolutely nothing about it, if his laughter was anything to go by.


No house owner/ landlord is supposed to know about it yet as it is still to be approved and there is no date for it to be implemented, only speculation. 
As snickpoh points out, atm there is noone designated to carry out the inspections so it'll take a time to work everything out even if it is ever approved


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## tonyinspain

Not heard a thing about this but ill do what i normally do is put it in the file marked b1n 
Sounds to me another way of filling the architects pockets and leaving us with even less money to live on and im sure the spanish will all rush out to get one


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## Michael Spain

*THe truth about energy performance certificates*

Hello Everbody.

I am new to this forum and would like to introduce myself.

I am a official energy assesor covering residential and industrial energy audits . I am also qualified to legally produce energy performance certificates in spain. I am half English and half Spanish . and speak 5 languages

I have recently completed a additional courses to bring my company up to date with the new regulations concerning epc´s in Spain.

I have been in the energy business for the past 20 years ( in Spain ). I have no intention of advertising myself and will not put my business website on this post. 

My intention is to inform any expat about the new regulation . It is my feeling that there are a few people in this and other forums feeding false information with the sole intent of getting business unethically.

From what i have gathered there are quite a few misconceptions of what the new law will be :

- The deadline is the 1st of June . But only if previously approved by the goverment ( could be approved in April........could be 2017 )

After the 1st of June if you sell or rent you have 7 days in which to produce a epc ( you nedd a paper from the assessor saying that you have ordered it ) , IN exceptional cases you can have 21 days ( you will have to prove thid EG: familiy death , extreme circumstance etc ) .

The maximum is 21 days..if it goes over this you will be fined

If you can prove exceptional case you will be fined

This rule will be applied from June ( if approved ) and from then onwards.

FINES :

3000 Euros for not having the certificate ( one off payment..not per day )

100.000 Euros if after the first fine , you do not comply within 21 days

600.000 Euros if aft6er the second fine you do not compley.

The new epc directive falls under the Spanish consumer protection act and these are the official fines that come under the act.

THe goverment can also force you to take out aepc.

Who can do a EPC . Only acredited professionals with the proper training ( not necessarily arquitects or surveyors , although they can do them ) , they must have the proper qualifications otherwise they will not be able to register the epcs with the goverment.

Prices . FOr the official survey , you are looking at 250 Euros for a 100m2 property , the bigger the property the higher the price. There are unofficial epcs , which are much cheaper but they are not valid for official use .

I must stress that regarless of the 1st of June date . until the law is approved , these certificates are not mandatory . If any company tells you anything different , they are lying and trying to scam you out of your money.

I have seen some companies on forums say .... I just did a epc for a client so that he could sell his house....this is normally a lie and is aimed at making people think that they need it.

This angers me because it gives honest companies a bad name , i also fell that its my duty to help to inform people with my knowledge and experience and to help make their stay in the fantastic country a pleasent one


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## Pesky Wesky

Michael Spain said:


> - The deadline is the 1st of June . But only if previously approved by the goverment ( could be approved in April........could be 2017 )
> 
> 
> 
> This rule will be applied from June ( if approved ) and from then onwards.
> 
> 
> This angers me because it gives honest companies a bad name , i also fell that its my duty to help to inform people with my knowledge and experience and to help make their stay in the fantastic country a pleasent one


Hello Michael,
Thanks for the information which I'm sure members of the forum will find interesting.
IMO however, the most important is what I have quoted above, and which others have already posted too. The law has not been passed, it is not in place at the moment, and even when it is, time will be given for the certficate to be done, so

Don't Panic!

and

Watch This Space

!!!!


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## moonman

this was made law in the rep of Ireland in 2009. its called (b,e,r) building energy rating. when it first came out, the rip off merchants were charging about 600 euro for a 3 bed semi detached , and 400 for a 2 bed apt approx. there was ads in the newspapers for courses to be trained as a ber assessor, the training course was about 800 euro and there didn't seem to be any minimum qualification required . the good news is one can have a 3 bed semi detached house done now for about 100 euro and the cert lasts 10 years. once a seller gets a cert all they have to do is give a copy to the buyer or the estate agent . it is then up to the buyer to improve the energy efficiency of his new purchase there is no obligation on anyone to do anything about it , just as long as there is a valid cert for the property. renting a room is exempt from certs so if a person had 2 spare rooms he or she could rent them out as single rooms cert free. all new buildings built from approx. 2007 have to have them . if anyone wants all the info about this and I think it was brought about by the brains in Brussels it at,, BER.ie - BER Building Energy Ratings.


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## 90199

We do not need, neither do we have, any form of heating/airconditioning whatsoever, on the rare occasions that it gets hot in the summer, we close the shutters and open the windows, on the rare occasions that it gets cool in the winter, we close the windows and dig out a pullover.

Why do I need an energy certificate, when the energy we use is less than 2€ daily.


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## snikpoh

Hepa said:


> We do not need, neither do we have, any form of heating/airconditioning whatsoever, on the rare occasions that it gets hot in the summer, we close the shutters and open the windows, on the rare occasions that it gets cool in the winter, we close the windows and dig out a pullover.
> 
> Why do I need an energy certificate, when the energy we use is less than 2€ daily.


Jeez - why are you making such hard work of this.

If you are a landlord renting out property in Spain or if you intend to sell your house, then it will soon be law that you have an EPC!

It is NOTHING to do with whether you have air conditioning, have pullovers or whatever. It is a measure of how efficient and green your property is. There will also be recommendations about improving the efficiency.

Whilst you might not need additional heating, anyone who buys or rents your property may think otherwise!


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## 90199

snikpoh said:


> Jeez - why are you making such hard work of this.
> 
> If you are a landlord renting out property in Spain or if you intend to sell your house, then it will soon be law that you have an EPC!
> 
> It is NOTHING to do with whether you have air conditioning, have pullovers or whatever. It is a measure of how efficient and green your property is. There will also be recommendations about improving the efficiency.
> 
> Whilst you might not need additional heating, anyone who buys or rents your property may think otherwise!


I disagree, it is a crackpot lump of proposed legislation, made by incompetent legislators and politicians, who appear to have no comprehension of the climatic differences in the areas they allegedly govern.


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## Michael Spain

In regard to the two previous post . The epc in spain isint done based on energy parameters , it is based on C02 , carbon dioxide emissions . Eben if you dont use air co . you use electricity which from its point of origin emits C02.

Although i do admit , nobody like spending money on a beaurocratic document


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## snikpoh

Michael Spain said:


> In regard to the two previous post . The epc in spain isint done based on energy parameters , it is based on C02 , carbon dioxide emissions . Eben if you dont use air co . you use electricity which from its point of origin emits C02.
> 
> Although i do admit , nobody like spending money on a beaurocratic document


What makes you think that?

If I chose to use nothing but solar power, hence no involvement with CO2, I would still need an EPC.


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## moonman

Michael Spain said:


> In regard to the two previous post . The epc in spain isint done based on energy parameters , it is based on C02 , carbon dioxide emissions . Eben if you dont use air co . you use electricity which from its point of origin emits C02.
> 
> Although i do admit , nobody like spending money on a beaurocratic document


if it is the same piece of ec legislation where the ber in Ireland came from it is based on how energy efficient the property is. a friend who sold a house in Ireland 6 months ago explained the way the guy did the house. there was a loss for windows with more than one opening , there was a loss for fireplaces /doors etc ,, there was gains for certain thickness of attic insulation , and also for wall insulation . it was all based on heat losses from the house. the irish govt site ber.ie answers all of the above. there are also 2 sites which advertise properties for all the estate agencies and one cannot advertise a house without a ber rating number. the sites are myhome.ie and daft.ie have a look and all the properties are rated. this also applies to commercial properties, it is an EC law.


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## chrisinspain

It is now law. It was made a law last Friday 5th April. If you search for energy performance certificates in Spain you will find lots of information. It is amazing that not a lot has been published about it as it is going to effect so may people.


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## Pesky Wesky

chrisinspain said:


> It is now law. It was made a law last Friday 5th April. If you search for energy performance certificates in Spain you will find lots of information. It is amazing that not a lot has been published about it as it is going to effect so may people.


BUT, not effective until 1st of June. There's nothing on the Ministerio de Fomento page yet!


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## chrisinspain

It's on there now. However a company I do a lot of work for still today had noit heard back from their solicitor who is "looking into it" The solicitor can't be that good, it is everywhere. Just to clear up a few points. You do not need one if you have a long e]term tenant in your property. You will need one for a new tenant. If you rent your property out for less than four months a year, say for holiday lets, then in general you do not need one. However with the 4 months rule there are things you have to comply to. If during those four months you use 25% oe more of your normal annual energy usage then you do need one. The law came into force on the 5th April this year and you should have applied for your certificate by 1st June. /SNIP/ I also personally think that the certificates won't make much difference to most people. If you find the home of your dreams and it has an E rating but the one down the road that you don't like as much has a C rating you are going to buy the one you fall in love with regardless of it's rating. If anybody has specific questions about the certificates just ask and I will try to answer if I can


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## moonman

chrisinspain said:


> It's on there now. However a company I do a lot of work for still today had noit heard back from their solicitor who is "looking into it" The solicitor can't be that good, it is everywhere. Just to clear up a few points. You do not need one if you have a long e]term tenant in your property. You will need one for a new tenant. If you rent your property out for less than four months a year, say for holiday lets, then in general you do not need one. However with the 4 months rule there are things you have to comply to. If during those four months you use 25% oe more of your normal annual energy usage then you do need one. The law came into force on the 5th April this year and you should have applied for your certificate by 1st June. Our company carries out the assessment, so we know that it is almost impossible for everybody who needs a CEE (EPC) to get one in time. I also personally think that the certificates won't make much difference to most people. If you find the home of your dreams and it has an E rating but the one down the road that you don't like as much has a C rating you are going to buy the one you fall in love with regardless of it's rating. If anybody has specific questions about the certificates just ask and I will try to answer if I can


you don't say how long a cert lasts for , in Ireland a cert lasts for 10 years , no matter what lettings the house gets.


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## chrisinspain

moonman said:


> you don't say how long a cert lasts for , in Ireland a cert lasts for 10 years , no matter what lettings the house gets.


It,s the same here in Spain, it lasts for 10 years, however if you make major alterations then you should have your property re assessed. You can have a new assessment at any point, say if you have solar water heating fitted and want to improve your property's rating. I think in most cases the certificate will not make too much difference to people when looking to buy the house of their dreams


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## Madliz

chrisinspain said:


> It,s the same here in Spain, it lasts for 10 years, however if you make major alterations then you should have your property re assessed. You can have a new assessment at any point, say if you have solar water heating fitted and want to improve your property's rating. I think in most cases the certificate will not make too much difference to people when looking to buy the house of their dreams


If there's a reassessment, presumably there would be a further, although much lower charge, for a new certificate?

Could you give a rough idea of prices for the full certificate, say (in the region of) €x for a 100m2 apartment, €y for a 200m2 semi, €z for a 300m2 detached house, so we could start saving our cents?

Thanks for all your help and advice so far, Chris.


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## chrisinspain

If there is a re assessment then yes the charge would be a lot less. The re assessment would only be done if it was requested by the property owner. Assessors have no way of knowing if a property has been changed. The charges are approx 275 for a property up to 100m2, 375 for a property up to 200m2 and 475 for a property up to 300m2. These charges are for any type of property regardless or its type. /SNIP/


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## Pesky Wesky

chrisinspain said:


> If there is a re assessment then yes the charge would be a lot less. The re assessment would only be done if it was requested by the property owner. Assessors have no way of knowing if a property has been changed. The charges are approx 275 for a property up to 100m2, 375 for a property up to 200m2 and 475 for a property up to 300m2. These charges are for any type of property regardless or its type. This is what we charge, but there may be better deals around, and there may be worse.


And who is qualified to do the inspection?


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## chrisinspain

At the moment, only architects, technical architects and registered engineers.


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## snikpoh

Madliz said:


> If there's a reassessment, presumably there would be a further, although much lower charge, for a new certificate?
> 
> Could you give a rough idea of prices for the full certificate, say (in the region of) €x for a 100m2 apartment, €y for a 200m2 semi, €z for a 300m2 detached house, so we could start saving our cents?
> 
> Thanks for all your help and advice so far, Chris.


Prices vary - we have been quoted a minimum of €150 with a normal price of €1.70 per m2 (plus IVA)



chrisinspain said:


> At the moment, only architects, technical architects and registered engineers.


However, none of the architects that I contacted could do it!!!!


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## Pesky Wesky

chrisinspain said:


> At the moment, only architects, technical architects and registered engineers.


Thanks.
Yes, snikpoh, I suspect that this is another example of something that will not be put into practice in all areas at the same time, or possibly not at all because just how are they going to do it? There are not enough qualified people to go round, there's little publicity about it etc, etc


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## chrisinspain

Only architects who have been on a special course can issue the certificates. The course is quite intensive actually, not at all like the 3 day course in the UK that some companies are now offering.
A price of 1.70 per m2 is good, really good, we would not be able to do the work at that price. I'm sure in time the prices in general will come down, but at the moment the market is dictating the price. Anybody has a choice of who they use. /SNIP/. I'm happy to answer anything I can, just don't shoot the messenger!


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## chrisinspain

The rules are that you have got to be able to show if challenged that you have applied for your certificate if you need one. /SNIP/


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## Michael Spain

As Chris mentioned and he is competely right , architects with special training relevant to the new law are the only people who can do the epcs

I checked the new law and the qualified architects than can do the epc are called qualified official energy efficiency certifier ( translated from Spanish )


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## moonman

Michael Spain said:


> As Chris mentioned and he is competely right , architects with special training relevant to the new law are the only people who can do the epcs
> 
> I checked the new law and the qualified architects than can do the epc are called qualified official energy efficiency certifier ( translated from Spanish )


as I said in an earlier , when this came into law in Ireland architects etc were the only people who thought they could do it , but when non professionals looked into it and challenged, it was discovered that anyone could do the course for about 700 euro . when it came into force in Ireland the going rate was around 600 euro for a 3 bedroom house, now its possible to have it done for 100 to 150 euro . in Ireland it is called the BER cert, and the irish gov environment dept organise it. if anyone wants info on it in Ireland the website ,, ber.ie has all the info , and if anyone wants to see sample prices and offers just google ber in Ireland . how things have changed . as far as I am concerned if I was thinking of getting this done for my property in spain I would wait for 18 months to 2 years and the prices will have tumbled.


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## chrisinspain

I agree and have stated in a previous post that prices will without doubt fall, however if you want to sell or rent your house now and need the certificate now then you pay what the market dictates. If you are happy to wait for a few years then you will get it done for less money. Mind you if you can afford to wait to sell your property, you will also get a better price it once the glut has been cleared. Then again if you are selling to buy again in Spain it's all relative. Sell cheap and buy cheap. If you are taking the money and going back to the UK then depending on when you originally bought it might still not be as bad as it looks. The exchange rates years ago were much better so going back and converting Euros to UK pounds with the exchange rate as it is benefits you. I constantly hear people talking about how much their house was worth in the "good times" however if you come out of it with what you put in, have you really lost anything? I know it does not always apply, but it's not all doom and gloom. Personally I would rather be hard up here than hard up in the UK.


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## gus-lopez

" If you are happy to wait for a few years then you will get it done for less money. "

Sorry , am I missing something ? Doesn't the legislation state that you have to apply within 1 week of June the first & obtain the certificate within 3 further weeks ?

They aren't really interested in energy certs; having only brought it in to avoid the multi-million euro fines from the EU, but they have seen that it isn't possible so they've added eye-watering fines for non-compliance!


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## Michael Spain

Unfortunately there is neither a 7 or 21 day period after the 1st of June....you will either have to have it by then or take it off the market


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## chrisinspain

What Michael has said is true, if your property is for sale you have until the 1st June to apply for your certificate. If you want to wait until the prices for the certificate come down, you would have to remove it from sale


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## gus-lopez

Michael Spain said:


> Unfortunately there is neither a 7 or 21 day period after the 1st of June....you will either have to have it by then or take it off the market


I wasn't referring to renting or selling. Only the fact that ALL households have to obtain one regardless of whether selling or renting!

My understanding is ;

If on sale or rented at present then , from the 1st June, you have 7 days to apply & 3 weeks after that to be in possession of certificate. 

If wishing to sell or rent, from the 1St June, you must already have a certificate.

All properties as from the 1st June have 7 days to apply & 3 weeks to obtain said certificate.

The idea of the EU legislation is that ALL properties have said certificate, regardless of being rented or on sale.

If you can point me to the part in the legislation where it states categorically that the last paragraph is not correct then I will be grateful.


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## moonman

gus-lopez said:


> I wasn't referring to renting or selling. Only the fact that ALL households have to obtain one regardless of whether selling or renting!
> 
> My understanding is ;
> 
> If on sale or rented at present then , from the 1st June, you have 7 days to apply & 3 weeks after that to be in possession of certificate.
> 
> If wishing to sell or rent, from the 1St June, you must already have a certificate.
> 
> All properties as from the 1st June have 7 days to apply & 3 weeks to obtain said certificate.
> 
> The idea of the EU legislation is that ALL properties have said certificate, regardless of being rented or on sale.
> 
> If you can point me to the part in the legislation where it states categorically that the last paragraph is not correct then I will be grateful.


in Ireland your last paragraph is not true absolutely, its all at ber.ie .. I don't know about spain , but if it is the same European edict its on the quoted website.


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## Michael Spain

Dear Gus .

I would like to point out ( i can understand the confusion ) :

Only property for rent or sale need it

There is no 7 or 21 day period

Come the 1st of June...no certificate to sale or rent.

Check out goverment website............you will find no mention of the 7-21 day period and the rest is clearly stated in the law for all to see.

Regards Mike


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## Calas felices

_"The idea of the EU legislation is that ALL properties have said certificate, regardless of being rented or on sale" _The actual details depend on the contents of the national or community legislation that has been passed to address the Directive.


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## moonman

Calas felices said:


> _"The idea of the EU legislation is that ALL properties have said certificate, regardless of being rented or on sale" _The actual details depend on the contents of the national or community legislation that has been passed to address the Directive.


do you know what is the national or community legislation in spain and particularly in in the andalucia region . I know that in Ireland all properties have to have a cert if being sold or rented since January 1st 2009, and all properties built since January 1st 2007 must have the cert. the certification lasts for 10 years.


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## snikpoh

moonman said:


> do you know what is the national or community legislation in spain and particularly in in the andalucia region . I know that in Ireland all properties have to have a cert if being sold or rented since January 1st 2009, and all properties built since January 1st 2007 must have the cert. the certification lasts for 10 years.


I'm not sure what question you are asking.

The law in Spain is the same law as in Ireland, UK, Italy etc. because it's a European directive. Spain have just taken a lot longer to implement it.

Any house that is being sold or being rented MUST have the certificate. Notaries have been instructed not to complete the sale of a property without the certificate. New properties, therefore, also require the CEE.

Because this is a European directive, there is no difference in Adalucia as to anywhere else in Spain.


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## Michael Spain

Dear Snikpoh.

Unfortuantely you are wrong , although its based on the same directive in all EC countries ( based being the main word ) , each countries have slightly different regulations.

To give you a example

Holiday lettings in UK need a EPC ....even if you just rent i week a year

Holiday lettings in Spain do not need it for just one week ( they do if its more than 4 months ayear or energetic consumption of at least 25% during rented perios ( can occur in just 2 months ).

Give me a man who has read a entire library and you will find wisdom

Give me a man who has read a few books and you will find danger


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## snikpoh

Michael Spain said:


> Dear Snikpoh.
> 
> Unfortuantely you are wrong , although its based on the same directive in all EC countries ( based being the main word ) , each countries have slightly different regulations.
> 
> To give you a example
> 
> Holiday lettings in UK need a EPC ....even if you just rent i week a year
> 
> Holiday lettings in Spain do not need it for just one week ( they do if its more than 4 months ayear or energetic consumption of at least 25% during rented perios ( can occur in just 2 months ).
> 
> Give me a man who has read a entire library and you will find wisdom
> 
> Give me a man who has read a few books and you will find danger


Thanks Michael, I stand corrected.

My information is from the one registered architect I have found (so far) who knows anything much about the CEE (EPC).

he mentioned that ALL holiday lets also had to have the certificate. Given your info. I would assume, then, that this architect is lying to increase his revenue.

How is the 'man on the street' supposed to understand all this when people blatantly lie?


----------



## Michael Spain

Snikpoh..you are a gentleman!!.

To be honest , he may have just not read the law properly and also bear in mind that the pre-aprroved law that was passed on 05-4-13 and then ratified on 13-04-2013 is slightly different

That or he has lied in order to get more business.

Regardless of this , you are right , it is a bit confusuing . luckily i have the advantage of fluent Spanish and a lot of knowledge on the subject


----------



## moonman

Michael Spain said:


> Dear Snikpoh.
> 
> Unfortuantely you are wrong , although its based on the same directive in all EC countries ( based being the main word ) , each countries have slightly different regulations.
> 
> To give you a example
> 
> Holiday lettings in UK need a EPC ....even if you just rent i week a year
> 
> Holiday lettings in Spain do not need it for just one week ( they do if its more than 4 months ayear or energetic consumption of at least 25% during rented perios ( can occur in just 2 months ).
> 
> Give me a man who has read a entire library and you will find wisdom
> 
> Give me a man who has read a few books and you will find danger


Michael,, do you know if the following applies in spain, it is part of the building energy rating certification in Ireland. New homes where planning permission applied for on or after January 1st 2007,,,, all existing homes for sale or rent from January 1st 2009,,,, certification lasts for 10 years unless there are a change of heating system or renewal of same and any new insulation added from date of previous assessment.


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## chrisinspain

In certain cases if a property had it's plans passed after October 2007 then it would not need a new certificate. However you would need to contact the architect listed on your original plans to check to see if a certificate is in place. All properties that currently have a tenant do not need a certificate, however when they move out and you advertiser the property for a new tenancy you will need the certificate to advertise your property. The certificate lasts for 10 years. If during that time you make major changed such as a new extension, new heating system, new air conditioning system then you need a new certificate. At any time during the 10 year period you can get your property re assessed if you have made changes to try to improve your properties rating.


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## BrianColdwell

*Energy Performance Certificates Become Obligatory in Spain*

Hi guys,

Yesterday there was an interesting interview on ITalk FM (Costa Del Sol) about Energy Performance Certificates in Spain. It was an interview with a representative from a company called ***************** and I was surprised to know that this new law on EPC will be put in place really soon--June 1! I Googled the company and found out as well that only qualified assessors can do it. Does this mean normal electricians cannot give out certification? I think this is a very good law from the Spanish government to provide a higher standard of real estate in Spain especially in Marbella.


----------



## xabiaxica

BrianColdwell said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Yesterday there was an interesting interview on ITalk FM (Costa Del Sol) about Energy Performance Certificates in Spain. It was an interview with a representative from a company called ***************** and I was surprised to know that this new law on EPC will be put in place really soon--June 1! I Googled the company and found out as well that *only qualified assessors can do it. Does this mean normal electricians cannot give out certification*? I think this is a very good law from the Spanish government to provide a higher standard of real estate in Spain especially in Marbella.


yes, read back through the thread & that apparently is the case


----------



## moonman

in Ireland when it came out a few years ago , many people thought that only architects could do the assessment. as time went by ads appeared in the newspapers advertising courses to become an assessor and suggesting who could apply , plumbers/ electricians/carpenters , etc, to do the course was about somewhere between 750-900 euro. it then emerged that no formal training in a trade or profession was required as the course was a new standard ,and the person either got the qualification or failed.


----------



## Michael Spain

Only architects or technical architecs , with special specific training and do the certificates . Electricians cannot do the EPC. 

if you searh in google for spanish energy performance certificates, there is a lot of information about the new law from various sites


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## 90199

I even found one for Valverde El Hierro, price from 100€.

I am trying to sell an apartment and I am of the opinion that 100€ + will be a complete waste of my money. Still that is what legislators and politicians excel in, wasting other peoples money.


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## extranjero

*price of EPC*

On another forum it is stated that EPCs cost 90 euros-any size house, though this firm only works within 10 miles of Javea. If this can be done at this price(and it is done by a properly qualified architect/engineer) then we must not allow ourselves to be ripped off by these firms charging 200 plus euros, with higher charges for bigger houses!


----------



## Michael Spain

Dear Extranjero.

There are two types of Certificates . Official ( done by architects ) and unoffial ( done by energy surveyors ). The unofficial EPC costs around 100 Euros, butr are only intentended as a guideline on the property and are not recognised by the goverment and are not registered with the goverment.

When you sell a property , the notary checks the goverment registry to see if you have a epc. if the epc is not in the registry ( because its unoffial ) . you will not be able to sell, or advertise it and you will be fined 3000 Euros.

Is it worth saving afew hundred euros to : lose a sale , pay 3000 euros finr and.....have to get a offiial one anyway!!!!!


----------



## snikpoh

extranjero said:


> On another forum it is stated that EPCs cost 90 euros-any size house, though this firm only works within 10 miles of Javea. If this can be done at this price(and it is done by a properly qualified architect/engineer) then we must not allow ourselves to be ripped off by these firms charging 200 plus euros, with higher charges for bigger houses!


Unfortunately we don't have a choice!

If there is no one in town doing it for less, what is one supposed to do!


@BrianColdwell - 

By-the-way, the law doesn't come in on June 1st - it's already law! People have until June 1st to comply with this new law!


----------



## chrisinspain

The price of the certificates in Spain are about average within Europe. In the UK is less but in places like Germany and Sweden is a more. There are companies around offering to do an energy survey, but to be honest they are a bit of a waste of time. An official certificate will still need a visit by a registered energy assessor so the information from the energy survey will not be used.


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## 90199

Seems like they have got us by the goolies. I shall have to contact the firm in Valverde and request a certificate or take it off the market.


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## extranjero

It looks like someone has said "this is a nice little earner," and plucked a figure out of the air!
There should be one price, regardless of size of property. If it's possible to do it for£60 in UK then it's possible here. Someone should have the guts to offer it at a reasonable price, not the inflated ones being quoted-others would soon follow, as no one would pay their prices. Prices are market led, not set by the government!


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## DunWorkin

We have our house on the market with 4 agents.

I contact them and 3 of them were not aware of this new law and the third said

_"I have been speaking to the Notary here in El Campello with regard to this new requirement and it seems that an Energy Performance Certificate will now need to be produced on signing the new Escritura de Compraventa (Title Deeds) after 1st June 2013. I am informed that nobody will be fined, but that without the Energy Certificate you can’t change over the Title Deeds. So it seems that when a sale has been agreed that is when the Certificate will be sought"_

It seems there is still a lot of confusion and lack of information on this matter.


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## chrisinspain

There are companies in Spain who for 100 euros will do you an energy survey. This is just a survey not a registered certificate. When a notary submits the paperwork they will ask for an energy performance certificate or as it is properly called a Certificado de Eficiencia Energética. It is the law. The royal decree was passed on the 5th April to be brought in on the 6th April. Have a look on the internet or the governments website all the information is there.


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## Michael Spain

Dun WOrkin.

You are right about the notary, But he failed to mention that you need it from the moment you advertise...regarless of if you sell or not.

And the fines range from 3000 Euros to 600.000 Euros for not having it ( its the law ....the notary should know this )


----------



## concertina

Madliz said:


> I have heard anything from a few hundreds to several thousand euros, depending, of course, on the size of property.
> 
> I have my house on the market and can ill afford ANYTHING at the moment. Unfortunately, it's an EU law and I won't be able to sell without it, come June. Wouldn't it be wonderful if politicians did things that people wanted, for a change. I don't remember anyone clamouring for this, like so many laws that are foisted upon us.
> 
> "It'll save x in energy" they say - no it won't, because people cannot afford the expense of changing anything in these troubled times. The government, of course, will rake in VAT on all the bills.


hello people in spain just browsing the forum generally and see this issue of the energy rating certificate,it came in here,greece about year and half ago,in this crisis.We didnt know actually until our solicitor said that we wouldnt be able to close the sale without the certificate,was about 800euro.That combined with a requirement,new law, of a satelite view of the property as opposed to a street one was the final nail in the coffin,that was about 6 hundred plus lawyers,solicitors, local council etc..etc..When they came to inspect for the energy rating,they even measured the heaters.All a nightmare.Of course they did say that people who have good low use of energy would get lower property tax,that didnt happen of course,and not many of us now have the money to improve our properties thus lowering our energy consumption.Just another way of squeezing money out of us.


----------



## petergranada

It contacted a company in Marbella who were very helpful with free advice, they say the notary can not process the property sale paperwork from the 1st June without it, so no certificate means no sale. 
The company was called artica energy performance, I have them booked for next week so will post a comment on how i find them once they have been out to me.


----------



## DunWorkin

petergranada said:


> It contacted a company in Marbella who were very helpful with free advice, they say the notary can not process the property sale paperwork from the 1st June without it, so no certificate means no sale.
> The company was called artica energy performance, I have them booked for next week so will post a comment on how i find them once they have been out to me.


This advice again seems to be saying the same as I was told. The notary will require the certificate in order to make the exchange. 

Our notary is saying you do not need a certificate until you have a buyer.

Others on here are saying you cannot advertise your house for sale after 1st June unless you have the certificate.

At the moment, until I see official evidence to the contrary, I am going by what the notary says rather than someone here on an open forum (especially as that person works for a company that provides these certificates )


----------



## chrisinspain

Hi, it does say in the Royal Decree, that you need to have your certificate to advertise your property. If anybody wants a copy of the decree I can send it via e mail. It is all in Spanish and is fairly long winded however a lot of people on the forum can read Spanish so it shouldn't be too bad. Other than that Google Translator does not make a bad job of translating it


----------



## DunWorkin

chrisinspain said:


> Hi, it does say in the Royal Decree, that you need to have your certificate to advertise your property. If anybody wants a copy of the decree I can send it via e mail. It is all in Spanish and is fairly long winded however a lot of people on the forum can read Spanish so it shouldn't be too bad. Other than that Google Translator does not make a bad job of translating it


Why then are notaries saying you do not need the certificate until you have a buyer?

How will the fines work? 

Who will monitor it and enforce it? 

Or is this one more law in Spain that exists but no one takes any notice of?


----------



## chrisinspain

A lot of Notaries don't even know about the certificates yet. For people going to the notary who don't have the certificate after the 1st June there could even be a fine involved for not having it. The notary can't complete the sale without the certificate. To being with there will probably be some sort of period of grace where it is all coming into force, however if they stick to the letter of the law, no certificate means no sale and a fine imposed for not having the cert. They are also trying to pass a law which will mean that people who want to rent their property out will have to go through an agent. How successful this one would be remains to be seen, but it is all heading towards ensuring that people get the certificate. As to how it will be enforced, it will start with the easy targets, estate agents, letting agents, property management companies and key holders. Notaries will be the "police" for the sales side of things. Fines can be issued to agents advertising properties for sale without the certificate. It's easy money for the government. The fines until something else comes along will be the same as under the Spanish consumer law. from 3000 euros to 600,000 euros. Don't have a go at me though all I'm doing is passing along information. I have my own opinions about the usefulness of it all. The second stage of the certificates will probably be that you will not be able to rent your property out if it gets a very low rating. There has also been 100 million euros set aside by the Spanish government to be given out in grants for people to improve their properties. It is all set out in the new royal decree which is Real Decreto 235/2013, brought into force on the 5th April 2013


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## xabiaxica

here's a link to the decree http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2013/04/13/pdfs/BOE-A-2013-3904.pdf


and a googletranslated version

Google Translate

chrisinspain - can you point me to the section which states that you need to have a certificate to advertise your property, please?

what's the Article number?


----------



## Madliz

xabiachica said:


> here's a link to the decree http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2013/04/13/pdfs/BOE-A-2013-3904.pdf
> 
> 
> and a googletranslated version
> 
> Google Translate
> 
> chrisinspain - can you point me to the section which states that you need to have a certificate to advertise your property, please?
> 
> what's the Article number?


From your BOE link:

Sec. I. Pág. 27550

2. Cuando se construyan, vendan o alquilen edificios o unidades de éstos, el certificado de eficiencia energética o una copia de éste se deberá mostrar al comprador o nuevo arrendatario potencial y se entregará al comprador o nuevo arrendatario, en los términos que se establecen en el Procedimiento básico.

...and to DunWorkin: At a guess, as far as your notary is concerned, he only needs to know about the certificate when completing a sale in his office. He isn't involved in advertising properties for sale or rent so doesn't need to know anything about the requirements for having a certificate then.


----------



## chrisinspain

That's the bit, saved me a job, thank you


----------



## xabiaxica

Madliz said:


> From your BOE link:
> 
> Sec. I. Pág. 27550
> 
> 2. Cuando se construyan, vendan o alquilen edificios o unidades de éstos, el certificado de eficiencia energética o una copia de éste se deberá mostrar al comprador o nuevo arrendatario potencial y se entregará al comprador o nuevo arrendatario, en los términos que se establecen en el Procedimiento básico.
> 
> ...and to DunWorkin: At a guess, as far as your notary is concerned, he only needs to know about the certificate when completing a sale in his office. He isn't involved in advertising properties for sale or rent so doesn't need to know anything about the requirements for having a certificate then.


you have WAY more patience than I have!!

thanks 


although it still doesn't actually say that you have to have a certificate in order to _advertise _a property for sale or rent, just that a potential buyer or new tenant has the right to see it

I'm nit-picking maybe................


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## Michael Spain

Xabia chica...it does actually say that you need it from the moment you advertise . it doesent suggest that you have to show the cert to a potential buyer tenant...it says you must!!!

No room for interpretation


----------



## snikpoh

Michael Spain said:


> Xabia chica...it does actually say that you need it from the moment you advertise . it doesent suggest that you have to show the cert to a potential buyer tenant...it says you must!!!
> 
> No room for interpretation


I'm a bit confused now. 

Given that the decree is in Spanish, and given that Xabia is fluent in Spanish, I can't see how she's got it wrong.

Can you please post the appropriate section/sentence so that I can translate it for myself.

Thanks.


----------



## xabiaxica

snikpoh said:


> I'm a bit confused now.
> 
> Given that the decree is in Spanish, and given that Xabia is fluent in Spanish, I can't see how she's got it wrong.
> 
> Can you please post the appropriate section/sentence so that I can translate it for myself.
> 
> Thanks.


I haven't read the entire thing, so if it says that you have to have it to advertise I'd like know which bit too

the section mentioned previously does say that potential buyers/tenants have the right to see the certificate - but I can't see where it says that you aren't permitted to advertise without one

you clearly need one in order to sell or rent out a property - so the only question in my mind is exactly _when _you have to get the cert

to be fair - if I was thinking of moving now, I'd want to see a cert when I viewed a property, & not wait until the point of contract, so logically you'd need to get the cert sooner rather than later


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Madliz said:


> From your BOE link:
> 
> Sec. I. Pág. 27550
> 
> 2. Cuando se construyan, vendan o alquilen edificios o unidades de éstos, el certificado de eficiencia energética o una copia de éste se deberá mostrar al comprador o nuevo arrendatario potencial y se entregará al comprador o nuevo arrendatario, en los términos que se establecen en el Procedimiento básico.





> *snikpoh* I'm a bit confused now.
> 
> Given that the decree is in Spanish, and given that Xabia is fluent in Spanish, I can't see how she's got it wrong.
> 
> Can you please post the appropriate section/sentence so that I can translate it for myself.


Well, as with all good Spanish decrees/ laws/ rules it's all up to interpretation, but maybe the answer is in the use of the terms
comprador o nuevo arrendatario potencial
and
comprador o nuevo arrendatario
So, it says that the certificate has to be shown to *potential* buyers and renters and actually handed over to the buyer and renter once the transaction is *completed*. Therefore if it has to be shown to all *potentials*, surely you need it when you put the property up for sale/ rent?
Wadayathink???


----------



## xabiaxica

.


Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, as with all good Spanish decrees/ laws/ rules it's all up to interpretation, but maybe the answer is in the use of the terms
> comprador o nuevo arrendatario potencial
> and
> comprador o nuevo arrendatario
> So, it says that the certificate has to be shown to *potential* buyers and renters and actually handed over to the buyer and renter once the transaction is *completed*. Therefore if it has to be shown to all *potentials*, surely you need it when you put the property up for sale/ rent?
> Wadayathink???


I agree - that's what I was saying sort of

it says that potential purchasers & tenants have the right to see it - so logically you'd need it before it got to contract stage, since presumably they'd want to see it when viewing


but - & I _*did * _say I was nit-picking............

it doesn't actually say that you _have to _have it as soon as you _advertise_ it - it's entirely possible that you could advertise a property & & not show it to anyone for months (years?) in this climate ................ 

so if/when you actually get a serious potential tenant or purchaser - _then _you could arrange for the certificate

of course - while it's a new ruling that could well take months, so it would make sense to get it done asap

but this has been going for ages in the UK, and when we put my late father's house on the market the inspection was arranged & completed within 24 hours

and no - not as soon as it was advertised - and certainly not all viewers wanted to see it nor were serious potential purchasers - but once an actual potential purchaser was found


----------



## chrisinspain

You need it when your property is for sale. You can't just apply for it when you think you have a potential buyer. Even if you ignore the legal implications, think about in in practical terms, you get somebody who is interested in your property, you then apply for your certificate, you then wait for your assessment visit, which at the moment would be at least a few weeks, you then wait for your certificate, say around another 7 days, your potential buyer has by now looked at 5 other properties which complying with the law already have their certificates in place......
I agree it won't influence many people looking to buy a property and it might at the moment be a bit of a waste of time, however as much as we don't like it, it's law


----------



## rotaels

*Energy Efficiency Certificate*

The Energy Certificate how strict are they regarding the 1st June and if you have a property on the market for sale can the certificate wait until you have an interested potential purchaser. Anyone got the latest on this how it all works and the cost I have been reading up on it but still confused.


----------



## rotaels

*energy efficiency cert.*

lots of info already here.. thanks!


----------



## extranjero

You cannot advertise your property for sale unless you have the EPC; Estate agents cannot market it without it. You are both subject to being fined if the EPC is not there.There is no argument about it!


----------



## Cazzy

I am not advertising for my own gain, but for anyone who is interested a Spanish friend of mine can arrange energy certificates for 200 euro + IVA in most areas of Spain. If anyone wants any information PM me your details and I will pass it on.


----------



## extranjero

*Epc*



rotaels said:


> The Energy Certificate how strict are they regarding the 1st June and if you have a property on the market for sale can the certificate wait until you have an interested potential purchaser. Anyone got the latest on this how it all works and the cost I have been reading up on it but still confused.


Why confused-the post above you made it clear.
If you are selling a property you need it by 1st June.Both you and the estate agent can be fined for not having it. There are now numerous websites./SNIP/


----------



## xabiaxica

extranjero said:


> *Why confused-the post above you made it clear.*
> If you are selling a property you need it by 1st June.Both you and the estate agent can be fined for not having it. There are now numerous websites./SNIP/


because he hadn't seen this thread when he posted - he had started a new one & they were merged together

read his next post....................


----------



## 90199

Here on the island of El Hierro we are finding it to be extremely difficult to obtain such a certificate for an apartment that we are trying to sell.

I questioned an estate agent last night, he had never heard of such certificates and suggested we contact the Electricity company.

We are still part of Spain aren't we?


----------



## chrisinspain

You need to contact an Architect. They will know about them. Electricians can't do the certificate.


----------



## extranjero

chrisinspain said:


> You need to contact an Architect. They will know about them. Electricians can't do the certificate.


if you contact Iberswitch, which is a company finding the cheapest electricity for clients,, they are running a discount scheme on EPCs. You do not have to be a member of Iberswitch to apply.


----------



## 90199

chrisinspain said:


> You need to contact an Architect. They will know about them. Electricians can't do the certificate.


I know that, you know that, the problem is that no other Blugger here knows about the new legislation and consequently are not prepared for it.

We have started a panic.............


----------



## tonyinspain

I told my friend about this and he said look they know where i live if its that important they will find me and i think a lot of this scaremongering works the same if they want you to get these different certificates than they will find you a big mass exodus was habitation certificate everyone dived in to get them with a panic or this new asset declaration what next bird flu my opinion is when we see the spanish crapping themselves then worry 
too much scaremongering going on if we need these different pieces of crap the spanish will inform us and as my friend said they know where to find us !!!!


----------



## snikpoh

tonyinspain said:


> I told my friend about this and he said look they know where i live if its that important they will find me and i think a lot of this scaremongering works the same if they want you to get these different certificates than they will find you a big mass exodus was habitation certificate everyone dived in to get them with a panic or this new asset declaration what next bird flu my opinion is when we see the spanish crapping themselves then worry
> too much scaremongering going on if we need these different pieces of crap the spanish will inform us and as my friend said they know where to find us !!!!


You're missing the point entirely.

If you are selling a property, and are lucky enough to find a buyer, the sale can NOT be completed at the notaires until you have an EPC!

Given that there is going to be a delay in excess of 4 weeks to get one, why potentially sabotage a sale especially when they are so hard to come by at the moment.

Rental is a different matter.


----------



## xabiaxica

snikpoh said:


> You're missing the point entirely.
> 
> If you are selling a property, and are lucky enough to find a buyer, the sale can NOT be completed at the notaires until you have an EPC!
> 
> Given that there is going to be a delay in excess of 4 weeks to get one, why potentially sabotage a sale especially when they are so hard to come by at the moment.
> 
> Rental is a different matter.




there's a talk about this in our Casa de Cultura this evening - I'm working so I can't go, but hopefully someone will tell me what is said

it is being billed as ''an INFORMATIVE TALK about the new obligatory energy efficiency certificate for homes for sale or rent.''


----------



## tonyinspain

snikpoh said:


> You're missing the point entirely.
> 
> If you are selling a property, and are lucky enough to find a buyer, the sale can NOT be completed at the notaires until you have an EPC!
> 
> Given that there is going to be a delay in excess of 4 weeks to get one, why potentially sabotage a sale especially when they are so hard to come by at the moment.
> 
> Rental is a different matter.


I understand where your coming from and yes i do get the point about the ECP but i would rather wait and see what happens then worry about it
To be honest lets see what the spanish think about it first as i have spoken to a few friends in my bar and they don't seem to be worried about it and they are arab spanish and catalan so i gauge it by what they say and do and at the moment its treated with indifference as the did with habitation certificate driving licences and numerous other pieces of crap that is money making schemes for the government just wait and see what happens like every other scheme it will vary from region to region and if they want me they know where i live


----------



## tonyinspain

As i said brits scaremongering and touting for business half the regions in spain dont know about this and we are all panicking for nothing wait and see what happens like i said when the spanish worry we should until then wait


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## chrisinspain

How can I be touting for business? I.m nit in the area you guys live. I don't need new business.


----------



## tonyinspain

chrisinspain said:


> How can I be touting for business? I.m nit in the area you guys live. I don't need new business.


So wheres Murcia then the UK and your avartar is what sorry mate but a bit suss eh the trouble is that as soon as a new bit of legislation hits spain everyone starts panicking and running off to as usual the wrong people and then spend hard earned cash trying to be legal 
The best bet with these legislations is wait and see like i said no one really knows whats happening at the moment its up in the air and as i said a good barometer is the spanish themselves if they are panicking over this then yes get it sorted but i haven't seen anything on the news regarding this and till i do 
Well they know where i live


----------



## chrisinspain

I just love people who bury their heads in the sand. Have a look around you. It's law, it's not going away. It was made law by royal decree. I don't care if people get the certificate or not, it's not may call. And yes my avatar does say energy performance certificates, I pat for it to be that way. The idea was to give people information about the certificates. I really don't need to tout for business. lots of people are being given wrong information and a lot of people are going to have problems because of it. You are correct about some things, but wrong about others. i'm fed up with Brits ripping off Brits, we have stopped a lot of it where we are by giving people the correct information, what you all do with it is up to you


----------



## tonyinspain

chrisinspain said:


> I just love people who bury their heads in the sand. Have a look around you. It's law, it's not going away. It was made law by royal decree. I don't care if people get the certificate or not, it's not may call. And yes my avatar does say energy performance certificates, I pat for it to be that way. The idea was to give people information about the certificates. I really don't need to tout for business. lots of people are being given wrong information and a lot of people are going to have problems because of it. You are correct about some things, but wrong about others. i'm fed up with Brits ripping off Brits, we have stopped a lot of it where we are by giving people the correct information, what you all do with it is up to you


Very true chris and i like you are sick of brits ripping off brits but I'm also sick of hearing about every law in the country changing and of course these ar always directed at us for more bloody money we can ill afford as it is so i say to hell with it i not going to give myself a heart attack worrying what these idiots are going to come up with next so there you have it and good on you for the information but like i said when the spanish start worrying i will act until then 
Ca sa ra


----------



## chrisinspain

I'm not trying to push you into anything, I don't see the point of spending money where you don't need to, but I would say that the amount we are doing for the Spanish is growing. They don't want it anymore than expats do, but they know they have to have it. The companies we are trying to stop is the ones charging for energy surveys and telling people that these are what they need, or the companies charging people to "register for their certificate" There are even companies set up who have charged for the energy certificate when they come and do their "assessment" then vanish. it does not cost a lot to set up a website if you look on the net. It's a scam we have been trying to stop. people set up a website, charge people a deposit to book, charge people to come and do an "survey" tell them their certificate can take up to 2 months to be processed and then shut down. No certificate, and no money. ............


----------



## snikpoh

tonyinspain said:


> I understand where your coming from and yes i do get the point about the ECP but i would rather wait and see what happens then worry about it
> To be honest lets see what the spanish think about it first as i have spoken to a few friends in my bar and they don't seem to be worried about it and they are arab spanish and catalan so i gauge it by what they say and do and at the moment its treated with indifference as the did with habitation certificate driving licences and numerous other pieces of crap that is money making schemes for the government just wait and see what happens like every other scheme it will vary from region to region and if they want me they know where i live


I wonder how many of your Spanish friends are trying to sell a property - this is simply not a Spanish thing. They don't tend to buy and sell like us brits (and ex-pats in general).


----------



## Madliz

I have personally contacted Chris in Spain and can convey to you all that he has been most professional and helpful. I only wish he DID work in my area. I wanted a rough idea of prices when these certificates were made law in April and I can tell you that his prices are lower than most Spanish companies I have also contacted and no pressure whatsoever was applied. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has benefited from his free advice. 

This certificate is yet another expensive and time-consuming hassle for those of us wanting to sell/rent our properties, life here can be very difficult and any help and advice, given freely with no strings attached, is most welcome.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

tonyinspain said:


> I'm also sick of hearing about every law in the country changing and of course these ar always directed at us for more bloody money
> Ca sa ra


Directed at us?
Who do you mean? 
Of course it's a way of getting more money. From everybody.

And what is ca sa sa?


----------



## tonyinspain

Pesky Wesky said:


> Directed at us?
> Who do you mean?
> Of course it's a way of getting more money. From everybody.
> 
> And what is ca sa sa?


Did you read it i guess not just tried to find fault as usual directed at us what do you think with your educated mind brits of course and any other Person they can squeeze more money out of
Ca sa ra what will be
Hope this answers your smart arse rebuf xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

tonyinspain said:


> Did you read it i guess not just tried to find fault as usual directed at us what do you think with your educated mind brits of course and any other Person they can squeeze more money out of
> Ca sa ra what will be
> Hope this answers your smart arse rebuf xxx


Ohh

Que será será

My smart arse couldn't understand you Tony

Please - no kisses - I don't know you well enough!!


----------



## tonyinspain

Pesky Wesky said:


> Ohh
> 
> Que será será
> 
> My smart arse couldn't understand you Tony
> 
> Please - no kisses - I don't know you well enough!!


Que sera sera


----------



## snikpoh

On another forum, it's just been mentioned that the architect will also check the following;

Fire escape
gas boiler for CO emissions

So am I correct in saying that the EPC/CEE is not only to do with Energy Performance but also the whole issue of Health & Safety - I somehow doubt it!


For example, how could an architect check a gas boiler unless he was fully approved as a gas engineer as well?


----------



## Madliz

> For example, how could an architect check a gas boiler unless he was fully approved as a gas engineer as well?


He probably sticks his probe in.

Eek, I'll be getting my inspection soon, better dig the burka out!


----------



## snikpoh

Madliz said:


> He probably sticks his probe in.
> 
> Eek, I'll be getting my inspection soon, better dig the burka out!


But he's an architect for G*ds sake! What's he doing with that kind of equipment.

Back to my original point, is this about H&S or going green?


----------



## Pesky Wesky

snikpoh said:


> But he's an architect for G*ds sake! What's he doing with that kind of equipment.
> 
> Back to my original point, is this about H&S or going green?


Don't you think its main function is financial, to collect taxes?
This government has little interest in green issues.


----------



## catalan

*Epc*



moonman said:


> you don't say how long a cert lasts for , in Ireland a cert lasts for 10 years , no matter what lettings the house gets.


What should it cost and where do you obtain one


----------



## catalan

*Epc*

Hi I live in Spain (near Arboleas) Where can I obtain one and what should it cost.


----------



## snikpoh

catalan said:


> Hi I live in Spain (near Arboleas) Where can I obtain one and what should it cost.


Only architects have been licensed to issue the EPC (or CEE in Spanish).

They last for 10 years.

They should cost anything from about 150 euros to 500 depending on the size and type of the property. I'm sure this figure will drop once the initial surge has passed.


----------



## snikpoh

Pesky Wesky said:


> Don't you think its main function is financial, to collect taxes?
> This government has little interest in green issues.


That's really irrelevant as this is a European directive (from the Kyoto agreement) and Spain are just a few years late in implementing it.

(I suspect though that your comment was meant as 'tongue-in-cheek' )


----------



## extranjero

*epcs*

Go to EPC Spain for info, or just google -there's tons of advice out there!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

snikpoh said:


> That's really irrelevant as this is a European directive (from the Kyoto agreement) and Spain are just a few years late in implementing it.
> 
> (I suspect though that your comment was meant as 'tongue-in-cheek' )


No it wasn't tongue in cheek, it must be that I don't know enough about it.
If it's to do with the Kyoto agreement then you've answered your own question as it's an environmental agreement, isn't it?
Although in practice the Kyoto agreement seemed to be a way for countries to sign on the dotted line, turn their backs and forget about it.
So, back to my first statement, I think it's for the money. I don't think this government gives a s*** for Kyoto.


----------



## Madliz

Well, since I have my house up for sale I am forced to have this certificate by June 1st, so the theory goes. I have been in touch with three companies offering the certificates in Madrid and filled in their applications. One replied within 24 hours with a quote of €210 including iva for a property of 100m2+ and the other two have never replied (nine days now). I made arrangements today and have a lady coming on Thursday to do the necessary. I have to have the house plans ready for inspection, plus photocopies of all gas and electricity bills for the last year, as well as manuals for the boiler and air conditioners (good job I have all that). 

I will keep you informed. My boiler is now 21 years old, serviced annually, behaving superbly, but will probably guarantee the house a low mark. Of course I'd LOVE to replace it, but have no money, even less now I have to pay for this *%&·"$¿& certificate.


----------



## extranjero

*Epc*



Madliz said:


> Well, since I have my house up for sale I am forced to have this certificate by June 1st, so the theory goes. I have been in touch with three companies offering the certificates in Madrid and filled in their applications. One replied within 24 hours with a quote of €210 including iva for a property of 100m2+ and the other two have never replied (nine days now). I made arrangements today and have a lady coming on Thursday to do the necessary. I have to have the house plans ready for inspection, plus photocopies of all gas and electricity bills for the last year, as well as manuals for the boiler and air conditioners (good job I have all that).
> 
> I will keep you informed. My boiler is now 21 years old, serviced annually, behaving superbly, but will probably guarantee the house a low mark. Of course I'd LOVE to replace it, but have no money, even less now I have to pay for this *%&·"$¿& certificate.


None of that was necessary with my survey. Cost approx same.


----------



## Cazzy

We have just been with the architect and had our first energy certjficate done! Simple.


----------



## BGD

To answer an earlier post: it isn't about Health and Safety; it's all about going more green.

The requirement to implement this Energy Certificate process has come from a Directive agreed across the whole EU by all EU countries a few years ago (2004?). 
Each countries Government has since then had quite a number of years to implement a domestic system within it's own country, for all residential properties.
So eventually the same system will exist in all EU countries.

The principle is the same as the system where all domestic "white goods" sold in most EU countries have a sticker on them showing where in a range from "A" downwards, how much electricity they use.

The house-energy-certificate system has been in place for years now in some other EU countries, certainly it is in France.

The Spanish Government has set out the rules of the system here, and the process that an assessor has to go through in evaluating a properties energy-efficiency. 
They've even set up a standard computer programme and computerised form system that all such assessors across Spain can use, to make it as easy as possible, and to try to keep the cost to the householder down.

Form now on, any time a house/flat or other residential property is sold, or a long term rental contract is set up on it, it needs to have an energy certificate. As I understand it, if you can't provide one in the pack of papers that the notary looks through on sale day, he'll not allow the sale....so you do need to get one before sale day!

I'm seeing quite a few companies spinning up already offering the assessor service; and there will no doubt be a flood of others in future, as it's really money for old rope. 
Just register with the Govt. Department, advertise, a quick visit to your place and look round, fill in the computerised form, back to the office, the computer chunters the stuff you input using the Standard Govt. software package, spits out a grading certificate, he gives it to you and relieves you of your money.

I've seen adverts for one outfit offering to do them for 100 euros for up to a 200 square metre property, I don't know if that's expensive or cheap compared to others.


----------



## snikpoh

BGD said:


> ...
> 
> I've seen adverts for one outfit offering to do them for 100 euros for up to a 200 square metre property, I don't know if that's expensive or cheap compared to others.


It's very cheap.


----------



## moonman

I posted what happened in Ireland when this came into law on page 2 0f this thread, post number 16. the price tumbled , the only difference is it took 6 months longer in Ireland to get to the 100euro price. it seems to have settled down at that price . the guys who do this work seem reluctant to go into double figures .


----------



## Madliz

moonman said:


> I posted what happened in Ireland when this came into law on page 2 0f this thread, post number 16. the price tumbled , the only difference is it took 6 months longer in Ireland to get to the 100euro price. it seems to have settled down at that price . the guys who do this work seem reluctant to go into double figures .


Unfortunately, those of who legally need it have had two months to have it ready, in our hands, so no time to wait for the price to tumble.


----------



## Madliz

Madliz said:


> Well, since I have my house up for sale I am forced to have this certificate by June 1st, so the theory goes. I have been in touch with three companies offering the certificates in Madrid and filled in their applications. One replied within 24 hours with a quote of €210 including iva for a property of 100m2+ and the other two have never replied (nine days now). I made arrangements today and have a lady coming on Thursday to do the necessary. I have to have the house plans ready for inspection, plus photocopies of all gas and electricity bills for the last year, as well as manuals for the boiler and air conditioners (good job I have all that).
> 
> I will keep you informed. My boiler is now 21 years old, serviced annually, behaving superbly, but will probably guarantee the house a low mark. Of course I'd LOVE to replace it, but have no money, even less now I have to pay for this *%&·"$¿& certificate.


I have my energy certificate! A very nice lady (architect) spent over an hour here, measuring every room (height, width & length)and every window, then took notes from the plans and the energy bills and took photos of the house exterior. Within a week she brought the certificate. On a scale of A-G, with A being most efficient, it got a D, which is apparently better than most houses of 20+ years of age.  The only recommendation would be to change the boiler. Three different types of boiler upgrade would lift the rating to C, B, or A, respectively.

Now, guess what - the certificates need to be registered with one's autonomous region to receive a rubber stamp (in exchange for more money, of course). Where I live, in Madrid, they haven't set up a registro yet so it cannot be registered. ¡España es diferente! 

Now I just need a buyer...(it's a very, very nice house  and PMs are welcome!!)


----------



## gus-lopez

Madliz said:


> I
> Now, guess what - the certificates need to be registered with one's autonomous region to receive a rubber stamp (in exchange for more money, of course). Where I live, in Madrid, they haven't set up a registro yet so it cannot be registered. ¡España es diferente!


 & you think the other regions have ?? 
To the best of my knowledge no region has got it set up yet. 
In addition Andalucia have stated that as they have not put it on the BoE themselves yet it isn't law & you don't need one until they do !! :lol:
You can't make it up .


----------



## Madliz

gus-lopez said:


> & you think the other regions have ??
> To the best of my knowledge no region has got it set up yet.
> In addition Andalucia have stated that as they have not put it on the BoE themselves yet it isn't law & you don't need one until they do !! :lol:
> You can't make it up .


It appears that País Vasco have:

http://http://www.idealista.com/news/archivo/2013/05/29/0624177-el-pais-vasco-ultima-el-registro-para-el-certificado-energetico-por-el-que-no-cobrara-tasas

To make the miracle even more amazing, they are providing it for nothing (Madrid will apparently charge 40e) AND you can do everything online and print it yourself.


----------



## extranjero

*Register*



Madliz said:


> It appears that País Vasco have:
> 
> http://http://www.idealista.com/news/archivo/2013/05/29/0624177-el-pais-vasco-ultima-el-registro-para-el-certificado-energetico-por-el-que-no-cobrara-tasas
> 
> To make the miracle even more amazing, they are providing it for nothing (Madrid will apparently charge 40e) AND you can do everything online and print it yourself.


Murcia set up the register yesterday. Registration will cost 8 euros;if you want it stamped it will cost 20 euros extra, but it is not compulsory.(why?) Some firms are offering to do this registration process for approx 22 euros extra;And you thought it was all finished once the survey had been done!


----------



## Madliz

Apparently 85% of Spanish houses are expected to have an energy rating of E or lower.

http://www.idealista.com/news/archivo/2013/06/11/0629015-el-85-de-las-viviendas-tiene-un-nivel-bajo-de-eficiencia-energetica?xtor=EPR-75-[esta_pasando_20130611]-20130611-[notinmo_4_titular]-[]-[]

I've noticed many ads for property on the costas with G ratings already. I wonder how much worse Spanish ratings are than elsewhere in Europe?


----------



## concertina

Madliz said:


> Apparently 85% of Spanish houses are expected to have an energy rating of E or lower.
> 
> http://www.idealista.com/news/archivo/2013/06/11/0629015-el-85-de-las-viviendas-tiene-un-nivel-bajo-de-eficiencia-energetica?xtor=EPR-75-[esta_pasando_20130611]-20130611-[notinmo_4_titular]-[]-[]
> 
> I've noticed many ads for property on the costas with G ratings already. I wonder how much worse Spanish ratings are than elsewhere in Europe?


hello people in Spain,Im visiting your forum,you made me laugh this morning,all about the energy certificate.Im in athens and my husband sold a flat to his cousin last year,(that was a miracle)in the process with the notary on the legal side,they just suddenly said-----certificate------and we said ------what, and how much?A guy came,300 or so I think and we had it in 1 week.Troika imposed lots of new local government laws to extract money from people and create some strange type jobs,so when you start to sell your property,they come up with all new legal things,pieces of paper that you have to run around for and pay for.My husband was almost crying some days because he didnt have the money and his cousin lent him in the end and took it from the sale price.We only sold the flat to pay off a loan on a country house we built,and now we cant afford to keep the house with all the new taxes,stealing of wages,so its up for sale.Another certificate to pay for.People here now dont want their property and are having to almost give it away,the greek government passed a law now in may for any non EC persons to have a 5 year visa to stay in Greece if they buy a propery of minimum 250 EURO,so lots of Russians looking to buy.I wish everyone good luck with renting,selling and for improvements generally in our lives,but most importantly to keep in good health.


----------



## concertina

and by the way we took an E rating with old wood windows, flat concrete roof,old electric water heater,2 non economical electric heaters,so how did they get G rating?Blymy people


----------



## Madliz

Hi Concertina. I hear your don't even have a state broadcaster in Greece today - more cutbacks. Sorry to hear of your woes; there are many similar stories here. Good luck with your sale.



> ,the greek government passed a law now in may for any non EC persons to have a 5 year visa to stay in Greece if they buy a propery of minimum 250 EURO


Did you really mean 250? Here in Spain they've passed a law whereby non-EC residents can get residency if they buy a property for 500,000 euros (hmmm...must put my price up ).

I was told that wooden windows are WAY better for energy conservation than aluminium ones and old houses do tend to be more solid, hence better insulated, than the newer ones. I have been in houses in Andalucía where you could see the stars through the roof tiles (aka bedroom ceiling) at night!


----------



## concertina

Madliz said:


> Hi Concertina. I hear your don't even have a state broadcaster in Greece today - more cutbacks. Sorry to hear of your woes; there are many similar stories here. Good luck with your sale.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you really mean 250? Here in Spain they've passed a law whereby non-EC residents can get residency if they buy a property for 500,000 euros (hmmm...must put my price up ).
> 
> I was told that wooden windows are WAY better for energy conservation than aluminium ones and old houses do tend to be more solid, hence better insulated, than the newer ones. I have been in houses in Andalucía where you could see the stars through the roof tiles (aka bedroom ceiling) at night!


hello madliz well yes 250.000 is the figure,we have ours on for 230.must put it up to 250,I dont expect to sell really anyway.Wood is great but they need to have double panes of glass,otherwise you freeze to death,and a flat roof is a ticket to hell and triple glassing is even better.I read of a guy who built in Sweden and did not need to put on heating until it got down to freezing point,which of course saves money and helps the planet.Good luck to you too,thankyou


----------



## tommy.irene

Any more up dates..


----------



## 90199

We have obtained ours for an apartment, cost 200€. Complete waste of money and time, it tells the prospective purchasers that we do not have any heating or air-conditioning.


----------



## extranjero

Hepa said:


> We have obtained ours for an apartment, cost 200€. Complete waste of money and time, it tells the prospective purchasers that we do not have any heating or air-conditioning.


Sorry to tell you that you can now obtain the EPC for 80 euros, any size property!Don't know if it includes iva, but even if it doesn't, will be under 100 euros!


----------



## snikpoh

extranjero said:


> Sorry to tell you that you can now obtain the EPC for 80 euros, any size property!Don't know if it includes iva, but even if it doesn't, will be under 100 euros!


Where?

Everyone I contact say they don't cover this area!


----------



## extranjero

snikpoh said:


> Where?
> 
> Everyone I contact say they don't cover this area!


jose luis perez 665214749
email [email protected]
advert p 8o costa blanca news, southern edn


----------



## Madliz

snikpoh said:


> Where?
> 
> Everyone I contact say they don't cover this area!


A Google search found this, if it's any use:

http://http://certificadoenergeticovalenciaalicante.wordpress.com/certificado-energetico-ontinyent/

It hasn't taken long for price wars to start:

Mercadeo con la certificación energética: cupones descuento y pujas a la baja entre arquitectos - elConfidencial.com


----------



## 90199

extranjero said:


> Sorry to tell you that you can now obtain the EPC for 80 euros, any size property!Don't know if it includes iva, but even if it doesn't, will be under 100 euros!


Not here.


----------



## snikpoh

Madliz said:


> A Google search found this, if it's any use:
> 
> http://http://certificadoenergeticovalenciaalicante.wordpress.com/certificado-energetico-ontinyent/
> 
> It hasn't taken long for price wars to start:
> 
> Mercadeo con la certificación energética: cupones descuento y pujas a la baja entre arquitectos - elConfidencial.com


Thank you. I did write to him but had no reply - I'll try again.


----------



## extranjero

Hepa said:


> Not here.


Did you actually contact him?


----------



## 90199

extranjero said:


> Did you actually contact him?


Contact who?


----------



## snikpoh

Here's a new twist -

A friend of mine is trying to sort out the estate of his late brother - the property has been empty for over a year. He asked the solicitor about getting an EPC (CEE) and was told that he didn't need one to sell the property as it had been empty for over 4 months! The solicitor in question is well known and respected on the Costa Blanca (Advoco) so I can't believe they have it wrong - or have they (they say they will happily put this in writing).

Also, what about a property that needs reforming? It has no power, no water but otherwise is totally sound. Does this need one to sell it?


----------



## mickbcn

I pay for this certificate last week 160 euros+ IVA.


----------



## extranjero

snikpoh said:


> Here's a new twist -
> 
> A friend of mine is trying to sort out the estate of his late brother - the property has been empty for over a year. He asked the solicitor about getting an EPC (CEE) and was told that he didn't need one to sell the property as it had been empty for over 4 months! The solicitor in question is well known and respected on the Costa Blanca (Advoco) so I can't believe they have it wrong - or have they (they say they will happily put this in writing).
> 
> Also, what about a property that needs reforming? It has no power, no water but otherwise is totally sound. Does this need one to sell it?


Really surprised at what your solicitor said; I would have thought you needed it in both cases--I would get another opinion.
Read this week in expat press, a letter from a man who was quoted 500 euros for EPC, then got it somewhere else for 380, stating it pays to shop around. Yes it does-they are available for just over 100, and soon may be less!


----------



## snikpoh

extranjero said:


> Really surprised at what your solicitor said; I would have thought you needed it in both cases--I would get another opinion.
> Read this week in expat press, a letter from a man who was quoted 500 euros for EPC, then got it somewhere else for 380, stating it pays to shop around. Yes it does-they are available for just over 100, and soon may be less!


Whilst I understand what you are saying, what's the point of an EPC rating when there's;

No heating
No windows to speak of
No water - so no heating system at all
No insulation
We all know that the property will get the lowest rating but then, who cares? It will be knocked about and rebuilt so the rating is bound to change.


Regarding Advoco, if they put it in writing I guess they are taking any subsequent blame and expense. However, like you say, some notary's will not sign off on a sale without one.


----------



## BGD

Careful. Just because Advoco might put that "advice" in writing, it DOES NOT mean they are indemnifying you! 

It would still be YOU who gets hauled to court and fined if the property is yours. 

You could then try to sue them for that fines money, plus costs, back on the basis that you acted on their advice as experts............but good luck with that!

I can see nothing in the regulations to exempt your property from the requirement to have an EPC in order to advertise it for sale/sell it (unless it's less than 50 square metres built area).
Property condition isn't relevant so far as I can see in the regs at all. 
If it's a residential property, you need to get an EPC survey/rating certificate on it.


----------



## gus-lopez

It is correct that if the property has been empty for a specific period an EPC is not required. It is written into the legislation.

" If a home is lived in for less than four months a year, an EPC isn’t needed. What’s more, if a property is already being rented out to a tenant an EPC will not be required until a new tenant comes in."


therefore advoco are correct as it is a deceased estate.


----------



## chrisinspain

The actual legislation states that if a property is lived in for less than 4 months a year and during that period less than 25% of the annual energy consumption is used an energy certificate is not needed.. However this referes to rentals.. If a property is to be sold for renovation then a certificate is not needed. I think this is where it can get a bit confusing. The law for rental property and the law for sales is different. Even if a property has been empty for 5 years it will need a certificate when it is advetised for sale. If a property is rented out for ess tha 4 months a year then in general it will not need a certificate


----------



## snikpoh

chrisinspain said:


> The actual legislation states that if a property is lived in for less than 4 months a year and during that period less than 25% of the annual energy consumption is used an energy certificate is not needed.. However this referes to rentals.. If a property is to be sold for renovation then a certificate is not needed. I think this is where it can get a bit confusing. The law for rental property and the law for sales is different. Even if a property has been empty for 5 years it will need a certificate when it is advetised for sale. If a property is rented out for ess tha 4 months a year then in general it will not need a certificate


This is totally contrary to advice that is being given out by lawyers and from reading the new law.

From Abaco - "The law, issued on June 1st, states that any property that is not occupied for more than four months a year does not require the certificate. We have signed numerous deeds before the Notary Public who has accepted an exemption certificate signed by the seller."

There is no mention of the 4 month rule applying to rentals only.

However, from a purely logical position, I would expect ANY house that is for sale to require a certificate to allow the purchaser to have an idea of (potential) energy consumption.


by-the-way, I can't find any reference in the new law about properties being exempt if they are sold for reforming - can you please show me where this is stated as, once again, I am getting conflicting advice. Thanks


----------



## chrisinspain

snikpoh said:


> This is totally contrary to advice that is being given out by lawyers and from reading the new law.
> 
> From Abaco - "The law, issued on June 1st, states that any property that is not occupied for more than four months a year does not require the certificate. We have signed numerous deeds before the Notary Public who has accepted an exemption certificate signed by the seller."
> 
> There is no mention of the 4 month rule applying to rentals only.
> 
> However, from a purely logical position, I would expect ANY house that is for sale to require a certificate to allow the purchaser to have an idea of (potential) energy consumption.
> 
> 
> by-the-way, I can't find any reference in the new law about properties being exempt if they are sold for reforming - can you please show me where this is stated as, once again, I am getting conflicting advice. Thanks



Hi the section that referes to the exceptions is in Royal Decree 235/2013 
it s in 
No. 89 Saturday April 13, 2013 Section I. Page 27555 Atrcle 2 and states
1. This basic procedure is applicable to:
a) New buildings.
b) Buildings or parts of buildings which are sold or leased to a new tenant, if not accompanied by a valid certificate.
c) Buildings or portions of buildings in which a public authority occupies a total useful floor area over 250 m2 and are frequently visited by the public.
Two. Excluded from the scope:
a) buildings and monuments officially protected as part of a designated environment or because of their special architectural or historic.
b) Buildings or parts of buildings used exclusively as places of worship and for religious activities.
c) temporary buildings with a planned time of use exceeding two years.
d) Industrial buildings, defense and agricultural or parts thereof, in the part for workshops, industrial processes, defense and non-residential agricultural.
e) Buildings or parts of buildings insulated with a total useful floor area of ​​less than 50 m2.
f) Building purchased for major renovations or demolition.
g) Buildings or parts of existing residential buildings whose use is less than four months a year, or for a limited time a year and with expected energy consumption of less than 25 percent of which would be of use throughout year, provided the record by declaration responsible homeowner.

The four month rule was out in place to cover rentals, as every property advertised for sale with the exception of the above needs a certificate

It gives the information at the start of the section regarding rentals in secton 1b above.

When reading this law you need a copy of every law it changes or replaces which is why it is so confusing. We have done this in conjuntion with four assessors, two engineers and the whole thing and our interpretation f it has been checked by with Maria de Castro, the solicitro in Marbella who advises on places like the eye on Spain forum. 

Hope this helps clear it up. We have had various meeting with solicitors and Notaries who after the meeting have said, "we may have interpreted the law incorrectly" 
It is all very confusing, whch is why we have set up another site www.energy-performance-certificates-in-spain.com which has an easy to understand questions and answers section. Please feel free to have a read through and see if it makes it any clearer.


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## snikpoh

Thanks Chris - I am pleased about the renovation properties as this exempts one of mine.

With regard to the 4 month rule, I agree it is confusing.

2g from your post refers to ANY property which is used for less than 4 months etc. etc. So, a property that has been empty for a while (been subject to probate for example) and is for sale, would be exempt (subject to a declaration).

However, it does state "less than 25 percent of which would be of use throughout year" but I think this is down to how the Spanish is translated.


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## chrisinspain

snikpoh said:


> Thanks Chris - I am pleased about the renovation properties as this exempts one of mine.
> 
> With regard to the 4 month rule, I agree it is confusing.
> 
> 2g from your post refers to ANY property which is used for less than 4 months etc. etc. So, a property that has been empty for a while (been subject to probate for example) and is for sale, would be exempt (subject to a declaration).
> 
> However, it does state "less than 25 percent of which would be of use throughout year" but I think this is down to how the Spanish is translated.


The main part with property for sale is that all property for sale will need an EPC. If it's not for sale it does not need an EPC, however if it is for sale it needs and EPC. 
The four mnth rule is for rentals only. Any number of priperties may have been empty for more than 4 months, but when they are advertised they need an EPC. I do a lot of work for banks who have repossed property which is some cases have been empty for years, and they still need an EPC when advertised for sale. The notary will ask for it once the property is sold, and wil normally be able to arnge it for you if you dnt have one, but you wil pay a premium for this service. We know this as we also get calls from them asking us to arrange an EPC as quickly as possible for a sale thay are dealing with We still chage the same fee which the Notary pays us directly, what they charge their clients may be a different matter..


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## snikpoh

Thanks Chris, but AGAIN, this is not what is happening every where. 

As quoted by Abaco - "We have signed numerous deeds before the Notary Public who has accepted an exemption certificate signed by the seller."

So, they have proof that an EPC is not needed when a house is sold that has been empty for more than 4 months.

As I said previously, 'welcome to Spain' - no one seems to fully understand the law, even the officials who are trying to implement it. You have your views and others have theirs.

Thanks again.


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## Madliz

As I understood it, one needed to have a valid energy certificate for a house that was advertised for sale or rent from June 1st of this year. 

I complied, plus have registered my certificate with my autonomous region and have my valid certificate from the Comunidad of Madrid, ready to have at the notary's office when (if?) I sell. All my adverts show the energy rating.

What gets my goat is that 90% of the ads I see have no such certificate listed! Before the deadline came in, much was made of the heavy fines that would be levied. With Spain in such dire straits you'd think it would be easy money to collect (over 1.4million ads on idealista alone), but instead, once again, it seems only law abiding citizens get stuffed by over-zealous funcionarios interpreting rules that others see differently.

Rant over.


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## tommy.irene

Madliz said:


> As I understood it, one needed to have a valid energy certificate for a house that was advertised for sale or rent from June 1st of this year.
> 
> I complied, plus have registered my certificate with my autonomous region and have my valid certificate from the Comunidad of Madrid, ready to have at the notary's office when (if?) I sell. All my adverts show the energy rating.
> 
> What gets my goat is that 90% of the ads I see have no such certificate listed! Before the deadline came in, much was made of the heavy fines that would be levied. With Spain in such dire straits you'd think it would be easy money to collect (over 1.4million ads on idealista alone), but instead, once again, it seems only law abiding citizens get stuffed by over-zealous funcionarios interpreting rules that others see differently.
> 
> Rant over.


They cant sell it without the energy certiicate.. they will be asked for it at time of sale..


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## djronster

*How to get ECC authorised in spain*



Michael Spain said:


> Hello Everbody.
> 
> I am new to this forum and would like to introduce myself.
> 
> I am a official energy assesor covering residential and industrial energy audits . I am also qualified to legally produce energy performance certificates in spain. I am half English and half Spanish . and speak 5 languages
> 
> I have recently completed a additional courses to bring my company up to date with the new regulations concerning epc´s in Spain.
> 
> I have been in the energy business for the past 20 years ( in Spain ). I have no intention of advertising myself and will not put my business website on this post.
> 
> My intention is to inform any expat about the new regulation . It is my feeling that there are a few people in this and other forums feeding false information with the sole intent of getting business unethically.
> 
> From what i have gathered there are quite a few misconceptions of what the new law will be :
> 
> - The deadline is the 1st of June . But only if previously approved by the goverment ( could be approved in April........could be 2017 )
> 
> After the 1st of June if you sell or rent you have 7 days in which to produce a epc ( you nedd a paper from the assessor saying that you have ordered it ) , IN exceptional cases you can have 21 days ( you will have to prove thid EG: familiy death , extreme circumstance etc ) .
> 
> The maximum is 21 days..if it goes over this you will be fined
> 
> If you can prove exceptional case you will be fined
> 
> This rule will be applied from June ( if approved ) and from then onwards.
> 
> FINES :
> 
> 3000 Euros for not having the certificate ( one off payment..not per day )
> 
> 100.000 Euros if after the first fine , you do not comply within 21 days
> 
> 600.000 Euros if aft6er the second fine you do not compley.
> 
> The new epc directive falls under the Spanish consumer protection act and these are the official fines that come under the act.
> 
> THe goverment can also force you to take out aepc.
> 
> Who can do a EPC . Only acredited professionals with the proper training ( not necessarily arquitects or surveyors , although they can do them ) , they must have the proper qualifications otherwise they will not be able to register the epcs with the goverment.
> 
> Prices . FOr the official survey , you are looking at 250 Euros for a 100m2 property , the bigger the property the higher the price. There are unofficial epcs , which are much cheaper but they are not valid for official use .
> 
> I must stress that regarless of the 1st of June date . until the law is approved , these certificates are not mandatory . If any company tells you anything different , they are lying and trying to scam you out of your money.
> 
> I have seen some companies on forums say .... I just did a epc for a client so that he could sell his house....this is normally a lie and is aimed at making people think that they need it.
> 
> This angers me because it gives honest companies a bad name , i also fell that its my duty to help to inform people with my knowledge and experience and to help make their stay in the fantastic country a pleasent one


Hi, Instersting information Michael ,

I have a quick question for you and the subject of EPC or ECC Certification.

I have recently complete a EPC course in the UK, with the intention of returning to the UK and use the certification to earn a living.

But if I can get authorised to issue certificatates here is spain I could continue enjoying life here.

Do you now if my UK certification would be accepted here in spain and if so how do I get registered and recieve an authorization number?

regards djronster


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