# Annual/monthly budget



## russellbrenton21

Good evening and Happy New Year to all,

I have what I appreciate is a very subjective and broad question, a little context may help.

My wife and I are looking to sell up in the UK in the next year or so and move to Northwestern (Brittan, Pays de la Loire) France. We are in our early fifties and would be looking for a modest semi-rural 2/3 bedroom house with some land. 

I am sure this has been asked a thousand times but I am struggling to find examples. What would be a realistic living budget for us to pay normal bills....insurance, gas, electrics, water, taxes, food etc.

I am not talking of eating out, holidays, entertainment or any of what I would call "extras" just the bog-standard unavoidable expenses. I have always assumed that broadly speaking, costs would be similar (overall) to the UK but am happy to be proved wrong.

I am very thick-skinned so please feel free to hurl whatever advice/abuse you feel may be helpful.

Best regards,

Russell


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## Bevdeforges

This may not be the best time to be asking a question like this, since the news here is full of tales of inflation related to household budgets. Just saw a piece on the 8 o'clock news tonight on the increases in the cost of food, and there have been recent reports on hikes in energy (petrol, electricity and gas) which may or may not be "capped" by the government in the coming months. 

Taxes are tricky because if you're planning on buying something in the housing line, there is the taxe foncière - basically property tax - where the rate is determined by the local government(s) and is based on a "theoretical rental value" of the property (which is ultimately based on the square meters of the home plus certain types of facilities like baths, pools, toilets, etc.). How this is calculated exactly is a mystery to many native born French folks.

As somewhat of an aside (but also relevant to your main question) - how do you plan to support yourselves when you come to France? You'll need to have "adequate financial resources" in order to qualify for a long-stay visa. Unless you are of pensionable age (and ideally receiving a pension) you may have issues with getting the necessary visas. But from there, some budget items can be calculated as a percentage of your regular income (generally housing costs, if renting or buying with a mortgage, will be limited to about 30% or so of your income).


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## conky2

"I am very thick-skinned so please feel free to hurl whatever advice/abuse you feel may be helpful."

you will need to be......



russellbrenton21 said:


> food etc.


What does that mean ? Will you be on a very tight budget and relying on special offers at the supermarket or browsing organic and artisan shops for top quality foodstuffs ......does etc. mean a motor vehicle ?

the ultimate how long is a piece of string question .


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## boilerman

Welcome to the site Russell, its a big question you ask, and a bit more info is needed. See above


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## bdelancy

Hi Russell - I have a home in the south near Montpellier, so I can't speak to your specific regions, and I am used to living in Washington DC and San Francisco, two of the most expensive cities in the US. 

With that background, I can say that from my experience, the monthly living expenses in France are substantially less. The cost of food (including big stores like Carrefour, weekly markets, roadside produce markets and restaurants) is substantially less than in the US. That is particularly true for much of what I eat, including vegetables, fruit, cheese, bread, seafood and oysters (from Bouzigues!) What I pay for a glass of wine in a US restaurant will buy me a full bottle of a fairly good local Languedoc wine. 

My monthly utilities are very low. Cable tv and wifi cost me 37 euros a month through Orange. That is about 25% of the cost of similar service in the US. My monthly electric bill (EDF) is about 45 euros this year, and my monthly gas bill (Engie) is about 40 euros. My water bill occurs at apparently random intervals, so it is harder to predict, but it seems reasonable. The annual taxes (taxe foncieres and taxe d'habitation combined) are less than half of what I pay in the US. 
The cost of household items, clothes, furniture, appliances, etc. is about the same as I would pay in the US. 

Some things are more expensive, but you are probably used to the higher prices. Fuel is the one thing that is particularly expensive, but I suspect it is comparable to the UK.

If you would like to hear about more specific items, let me know and I will tell you my experience. 

Good luck to you!

Ben


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## EuroTrash

russellbrenton21 said:


> I have always assumed that broadly speaking, costs would be similar (overall) to the UK but am happy to be proved wrong.


I think by and large that's correct. I've been yo-yoing to and fro in recent years and I couldn't actually say which of the two is more costly. On like-for-like lifestyles (I've been variously an employee with accommodation provided and only personal living expenses to pay for / working freelance from home / living the life of leisure) I've found my money goes on different things, but it seems to balance out. There are certain grocery items I always bring back from France to the UK because they're significantly more available and cheaper, such as 1kg bags of everyday coffee beans. I can't offhand think of any groceries I take the other way, But if you want to compare grocery costs it's easy enough to check supermarket prices online, e.g. https://www.carrefour.fr/r
Internet, I pay £19.99 in the UK for Three mobile internet and 29,99€ in France for Free.fr adsl. I don't use mobile phones much so in France I usually get by on my 1,50€ monthly subscription to Réglomobile and in the UK I have an 02 sim that I haven't topped up for well over a year.
Fuel, I pay around 60€ for a stere of wood in France and in the UK we just paid £50.00. No mains gas at either place, and can't make a meaningful comparison on electricity because the setups are so different. I have a paraffin heater in both places and paraffin is noticeably cheaper in France (and yes I know some people think paraffin heaters are beyond the pale but these are modern ones and they work for me, I was actually so pleased with the one I bought in France that I bought the exact same model to take back to the UK. We recently had a visit from the fire service in the UK to advice on fire safety, and he looked very carefully at the paraffin heater and said That's absolutely fine.)
I do find domestic appliances more expensive in France, but again you can compare prices for yourself e.g. https://www.darty.com/
Also office supplies like paper and printer cartridges seem massively more expensive in France! but that probably won't bother you.
For anything that needs doing in the house, plumbing/electrical etc, I expect to pay significantly more in France. Garage bills seem about the same, possibly slightly cheaper in France. Car insurance and house insurance is probably similar. Car tax works differently because in France you pay your tax upfront at registration and there is no annual road tax.
Healthcare obviously costs less in the UK because you can't get cheaper than free at the point of delivery.

I think though that your global budget will be impacted by the initial choices you make in terms of location and the property itself. I can shop within walking distance both in France and in the UK but if I needed to get the car out and drive to the shops several times a week in one place or the other, that would no doubt make a difference over the year. Also it will depend what car you bring with you, if you have a new eco friendly car it should cost you less to register and be more efficient to run, if you have an older car that is relatively expensive to run and will need replacing before long, that'll be an extra expense because cars do tend to be a fair bit more expensive to buy in France.

Apologies for a long and boring post but hopefully it will reassure you that there is no great gap between living costs UK/France. But, as Bev has said, the times they are a-changing and depending on what the two governments decide to do about fuel prices, inflation, carbon targets etc, and also I suppose what post-Brexit changes HMG makes (because wasn't the point of Brexit to be able to move away EU constraints that was preventing the UK from developing the economic model it wanted), the two economies may or may not diverge more in the future.


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## suein56

russellbrenton21 said:


> My wife and I are looking to sell up in the UK in the next year or so and move to Northwestern (Brittan, Pays de la Loire) France. We are in our early fifties and would be looking for a modest semi-rural 2/3 bedroom house with some land.
> 
> I am sure this has been asked a thousand times but I am struggling to find examples. What would be a realistic living budget for us to pay normal bills....insurance, gas, electrics, water, taxes, food etc.
> 
> I am not talking of eating out, holidays, entertainment or any of what I would call "extras" just the bog-standard unavoidable expenses. I have always assumed that broadly speaking, costs would be similar (overall) to the UK but am happy to be proved wrong.


As well as everything everyone else has said .. especially Bev's point re providing proof of an acceptable financial situation .. there is health cover to include.
If you are below retirement age then your health cover will cost .. private cover at first until you can be accepted into the state system, .. then a percentage of your income until you receive a state pension.
OH and I live in Brittany and our living costs are about the same as they were in the UK but we are no longer travelling to work so petrol costs are less.
Food is slightly more expensive but better quality.
Alcohol costs considerably less.
Heating costs for us are pro-rata greater .. we now have a mix of electricity, wood and bottled gas whereas in the UK we had solid fuel central heating.
Our taxe foncière is around 900€ per annum and we don't be pay taxe d'habitation.
If your income comes from the UK then the exchange rate can loom large in your life.
Not only day to day but a 'good' year exchange-rate wise can lead to a higher tax bill as you have garnered more euros in income 😏.

Don't be put off .. people arrive in France from all around the world but, because of Brexit, the transition bis more tricky than it was before. And now requires more preparation.


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## Bevdeforges

suein56 said:


> Don't be put off .. people arrive in France from all around the world but, because of Brexit, the transition bis more tricky than it was before. And now requires more preparation.


Just to add to this one point, people have been coming to France from all sorts of non-EU countries for ages. Yes, there are specific visa issues you need to contend with, but nothing more or less than what the Americans, Canadians, Aussies, Kiwis and others have dealt with for a LONG time now. The key thing at the moment seems to be the notion of having to show an income if you are not (yet) receiving a steady pension. If you are planning on spending down part or all of the proceeds from the "selling up" process, you may run into difficulties convincing the authorities to extend a visa to you. In the long run, this is very much a protection for you in making the big move, and not really an "obstacle" to be gotten around.


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## rynd2it

russellbrenton21 said:


> Good evening and Happy New Year to all,
> 
> I have what I appreciate is a very subjective and broad question, a little context may help.
> 
> My wife and I are looking to sell up in the UK in the next year or so and move to Northwestern (Brittan, Pays de la Loire) France. We are in our early fifties and would be looking for a modest semi-rural 2/3 bedroom house with some land.
> 
> I am sure this has been asked a thousand times but I am struggling to find examples. What would be a realistic living budget for us to pay normal bills....insurance, gas, electrics, water, taxes, food etc.
> 
> I am not talking of eating out, holidays, entertainment or any of what I would call "extras" just the bog-standard unavoidable expenses. I have always assumed that broadly speaking, costs would be similar (overall) to the UK but am happy to be proved wrong.
> 
> I am very thick-skinned so please feel free to hurl whatever advice/abuse you feel may be helpful.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Russell


From personal experience in both Brittany (6 years back) and Charente (now for two years) I have found France to be more expensive compared to the UK. Heating oil is about double the cost, electricity at least 50% higher. Our food bills (for a largely unchanged diet) about 30% higher. I pay more taxes in France than I did in the UK. Property renovation costs, paint, wallpaper etc at least 20% higher than UK.

I know others disagree with me but I have detailed spreadsheets going back over 20 years and I know exactly where the money goes and how much of it..

Having said all that, I know from friends that the UK is getting high inflation right now so my data on UK costs is at least 2 and half years old, whereas the French costs are current.


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## EuroTrash

rynd2it said:


> Our food bills (for a largely unchanged diet) about 30% higher.


I probably spend around the same on food in both countries BUT I buy different items and eat differently
I think trying stick to my French eating habits in the UK or my UK eating habits in France would change the equation.
It's actually something that amuses me about myself, the way my appetite and cravings seem to automatically flip whenever I change countries. If you looked at what's in my cupboards in France and what I stock up on the UK you wouldn't think it was the same person. Perhaps I should have been a spy, I might have been quite good at leading a double life!
But seriously, I think that being prepared to adapt, is part of the secret of keeping to a budget.


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## Befuddled

The OP's question can be filed under "how long is a piece of string".
The answer will depend largely on his expectations of the new life in France. We live in a small stone peasant cottage in about 2 acres and run two vehicles. We spend the most on electricity, medical insurance, and firewood. Food, I'm not to certain. The wife is in charge of that department. A basic state pension covers all our needs, and that's just as well because there is nothing much left in the bank at the end of the month. If we needed regular attendance to bars, restaurants, entertainment, and holidays away then we couldn't cope. Having said that, if we were to go back to UK our lifestyle would descend to even lower levels. This house alone would cost thousands per annum in rates instead of less than €100.


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## rynd2it

Befuddled said:


> The OP's question can be filed under "how long is a piece of string".


Square root of the distance between the ends multiplied by itself 😉


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## Bevdeforges

I think we've stumbled onto a rather significant factor in this "cost of living" issue. You need to consider your willingness and ability to adapt to the way things are here because ultimately that will affect how much it costs you to live in France (or in whatever part of France you ultimately settle in).

As has been mentioned, oil heating is on its way out and an oil heating system is going to have to be replaced over the next 5 or 10 or 20 years. (But hey, if it's what came with the house you bought, it's what you use until to get around to it - or "rynd2it" - to replace with something else.) The pool is considered by many to be an extravagance, but for others it's something they can justify for themselves especially if they can afford it. (And after all, any expenditure only really needs to be justified to yourself and your partner or other family members. What people here in the forum think is of no concern to anyone.) As a kid, I was convinced that owning horses was "expensive" and in many ways, it is. But my DH constantly reminds me that our two donkeys cost considerably less to keep than the cats. But we live in an area where there are sources of hay, a selection of farriers and large animal vets who make house calls.

It really does come down to what you need and want vs. what you can afford. If you live in an area with easy access to farms that sell directly to consumers or via a local marché you may find that various items are considerably cheaper than in wherever you're from. If you're into gardening, you may be able to grow much of what you eat - and if you "splurge" on a large freezer, you may be able to eat your own production all or most of the year. You can cut way down on the cost of owning and operating a car if you are in an area where you are able to reduce your driving by a significant amount or if you buy a used car (often cited here as "much more expensive in France than in the UK") that is relatively maintenance free and you plan your car use (combine trips, shop locally, investigate home delivery options, etc.).


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## rynd2it

Well said Bev, choice is an individual thing


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## BackinFrance

Don't buy a place with oil heating because the oil will cost you more z'and more each year and in the not very distant future you will have real difficulty sourcing supplies. Forewarned is forearmed.


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## rynd2it

BackinFrance said:


> Don't buy a place with oil heating because the oil will cost you more z'and more each year and in the not very distant future you will have real difficulty sourcing supplies. Forewarned is forearmed.


Knowing what I know now, I'd agree with that especially as the subsidies for changing are being reduced. If the French were serious about reducing fossil fuel usage then the energy subsidies would be increasing. As a solar consultant from about 15 years ago, I watched how such incentives worked, my energy bills were zero and that house had solar electric and pool heating.


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## Crabtree

Unless the OP is or is married to an EU citizen then they are going to need a Visa and comply with the minimum income requirement which is generally held to be equivalent to the French minimum wage SMIC which is 1603 per month How can they achieve this? Rental income? Business Visa? or are they hoping a lump sum will see them through(it will not) 
So whether a cabbage costs two bob in the UK and half a crown in France is irrelevant if they cannot get here in the first place so the OP needs to start here





Visas - France in the UK







uk.ambafrance.org









Do you need a visa ? | France-Visas.gouv.fr


Try our visa wizard and check in a few clicks if you need a visa to come to France



france-visas.gouv.fr


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## Befuddled

That's a good point. And a sobering one. If I was thinking of coming here today I wouldn't have a hope under the new requirements. 20 years ago I just arrived and didn't give it a thought. I established a right to residence slowly just by keeping my head down and staying out of trouble. Today I would need a means of making an income and money in the bank.


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## russellbrenton21

Dear All,

Thank you all for your helpful replies, there is some really interesting info and points to consider. I apologize for the vague and open-ended nature of my question, but I guess I was conscious of not boring everyone with endless dull details of our plans.

However, a bit more background as requested. Our eldest son has recently flown the nest and our daughter will be foo to Uni in 2023 and so our thoughts have turned to try to escape the rat race and redress the work/life balance.

Our thoughts currently are to downsize and buy somewhere in NW France outright to be mortgage-free. Our budget should be around £200-220k. Ideally, we would like a property with a bit of land to be more self-sufficient and maybe a gite to bring in some income.

I suppose we have been a bit arrogant/blase about finding work. We can't afford to retire so realise we will have to work but are hoping to work less or at least stressful. My wife is a qualified teacher specialising in languages so has options there but could equally work in an office. I have a few skills that should mean I can find work. Ideally, I would work in property management or something similar but appreciate that would take time to build a clientele. 

Another option could be to work from home for a UK company but I am beginning to realise that comes with a few obstacles.

I suppose the main reason for asking the question is to confirm whether we could live, albeit modestly, on a lowish income. I am confident that it we were mortgage free in the UK and had the option to work a 4 or even 3 day week we could live on a combined income of £20,000 a year and wanted to gauge whether this would apply to France.

Thanks again for your comments.

Best regards,

Russell


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## Keri22

Are you or your partner citizens of a country that is in the EU? If not then you may have a hard time getting a visa absent an income stream. Or, an employer in France. A Gîte is not going to bring in £20k per year.


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## BackinFrance

You would need to have the right to work in France and I have no idea how you would achieve that in terms of getting a visa that would enable you to do so. Have you looked at the requirements for a passeport talent?


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## EuroTrash

russellbrenton21 said:


> My wife is a qualified teacher specialising in languages so has options there but could equally work in an office. I have a few skills that should mean I can find work. Ideally, I would work in property management or something similar but appreciate that would take time to build a clientele.


Do either of you have the right to work in France?
Since Brexit, British passport holders no longer have the automatic right to move to France and set up a business or look for work.
If you have sufficient unearned income it's relatively easy to get a visa as a self supporting inactif, and you sign a piece of paper promising not to engage in economic activity in France.
Otherwise you're facing all kinds of hurdles like on the one hand France not recognising UK qualifications, and on the other hand French employers having to apply for authorisation to employ a foreigner and prove that they've tried but failed to recruit an EU citizen to do the job.

EDIT sorry, post crossed with BiF's.


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## BackinFrance

EuroTrash said:


> Do either of you have the right to work in France?
> Since Brexit, British passport holders no longer have the automatic right to move to France and set up a business or look for work.
> If you have sufficient unearned income it's relatively easy to get a visa as a self supporting inactif, and you sign a piece of paper promising not to engage in economic activity in France.
> Otherwise you're facing all kinds of hurdles like on the one hand France not recognising UK qualifications, and on the other hand French employers having to apply for authorisation to employ a foreigner and prove that they've tried but failed to recruit an EU citizen to do the job.
> 
> EDIT sorry, post crossed with BiF's.


No need to apologize, our points are slightly different though they support each other.


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## russellbrenton21

EuroTrash said:


> Do either of you have the right to work in France?
> Since Brexit, British passport holders no longer have the automatic right to move to France and set up a business or look for work.
> If you have sufficient unearned income it's relatively easy to get a visa as a self supporting inactif, and you sign a piece of paper promising not to engage in economic activity in France.
> Otherwise you're facing all kinds of hurdles like on the one hand France not recognising UK qualifications, and on the other hand French employers having to apply for authorisation to employ a foreigner and prove that they've tried but failed to recruit an EU citizen to do the job.
> 
> EDIT sorry, post crossed with BiF's.


We are both British citizens and, as such, have no automatic right to work in France. This is exactly why I am grateful for your comments and experience.

It looks like I have underestimated how the process has become overly complex. I had assumed that along as we paid our way and abided by the rules we would have no trouble settling in, getting jobs and then settling into French life. It sounds like there could be a lot of hurdles/paperwork to overcome first.

One side of me can sort of understand whilst the other yearns for the simplicity of my youth when I travelled and work around the world.

I am not giving up yet but will have to do some more digging!


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## Bevdeforges

This seems to be one of the big sticking points for many British folks making the transition to this new world of Brexit. In order to get a "work visa" you generally need to find a French employer first and let them obtain work authorization for you so you can get the appropriate visa. The other option is to go for a "passeport talent" which requires either a highly technical background (and a job offer that pays a high salary - which puts you back into the rat race you're trying to escape) or for you to set up your own business in France, ideally in some innovative field or in some sort of business that would potentially benefit France. 

One other possibility would be to wait until one or both of you hit retirement age and can claim your pensions. That provides you with a source of income ("financial resources") and the proceeds from selling your house in the UK becomes a "nest egg" you can use for investment or toward buying a property in France. It may sound like a long ways off, but it's a more secure way to get the visa you'll need if you really want to move to France - and in the meantime you can work on learning the language (which always comes in handy).


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## simpleton

russellbrenton21 said:


> We are both British citizens and, as such, have no automatic right to work in France.


Any chance either of you could obtain citizenship of an EU country via ancestry ? According to this there are 17 countries which offer citizenship to the grandchildren, even great grandchildren (or beyond in some instances) of their own citizens.









The Complete List of EU Citizenship by Ancestry/Descent Policies - Investment Migration Insider


17 countries offer EU citizenship to grandchildren, great-grandchildren, or sometimes even more distant descendants of European citizens. See our complete list and interactive map.




www.imidaily.com


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## EuroTrash

russellbrenton21 said:


> It looks like I have underestimated how the process has become overly complex. I had assumed that along as we paid our way and abided by the rules we would have no trouble settling in, getting jobs and then settling into French life. It sounds like there could be a lot of hurdles/paperwork to overcome first.


Unfortunately it's the Brits who wanted to work in the EU that have been hardest hit by Brexit. I feel most sorry for the young couples who in a pre Brexit world had the opportunity to expand their horizons and enrich their lives with very few conditions attached, but you've got caught up in just the same snare.
But, I am not entirely sure it would in any case have been quite as easy as you make it sound to arrive in France and walk straight into nice stress-free three/four-day-a-week jobs. Historically unemployment has been high in France, French employers tend to choose French candidates with standard French qualifications for the good jobs, and Brits often found it quite difficult to get a foot in the door. Moving to France with no job lined up if you needed to work, was always a gamble. Easier in a big city of course, but lots of tales of graduates counting themselves lucky to have a job as checkout operator etc. For that reason a surprisingly high proportion of Brits opted to start their own business which again can be quite a challenge when you're new to France; some made a go of it and others didn't.
I moved to France when I was 51, shortly after arriving I went through a bad patch and a little office job would have been very welcome. I had fluent French, good UK secretarial qualifications and the first 15 years of my working life were spent in offices, but I saw very few jobs I was actually qualified to apply for and I never had a single interview. At my age, with no French qualifications or office-based work experience, living in a small town in an area with high employment, I didn't stand much of a chance.
I suppose I'm saying all this to hopefully make you feel less bitter about having missed out on the "easy" route that used to be available to Brits, because in fact the "easy" route wasn't always a walk in the park.

Definitely don't give up but do plan carefully. If you still want to move pre retirement, put a lot of thought into it: look at French jobs sites and get a feel for what opportunities there are and what employers look for. Do yourselves French CVs, they are a totally different format from UK CVs, and work up a template for your lettres de motivation. And if your OH thinks she might ever work in a French office, she absolutely must get an AZERTY keyboard and practise using it. I had to make the switch from QWERTY to AZERTY overnight, due to having my QWERTY pc nicked, and the sheer frustration of it made my life a misery for days until I finally broke through the pain barrier!


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## Crabtree

Are either of you able to take your pensions early? For example my wife took her teachers pension at 55 albeit on a reduced payment but she only has to keep waking up every morning for the next couple of years or so to be in the same place financially as if she had taken it later and of course she had a less stressful life as a result. It may be worth enquiring
Also if you look at parts of Brittany you could certainly pick up what you want for less than your budget and/or could you rent out your current house/sell your current house and buy a smaller house in the UK to rent out thus releasing funds for your house purchase It is possible to find a solution but you need to think outside the box!!!
Also think about how much land you really do need for self sufficiency as many people overestimate and end up with a millstone round their necks


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## russellbrenton21

simpleton said:


> Any chance either of you could obtain citizenship of an EU country via ancestry ? According to this there are 17 countries which offer citizenship to the grandchildren, even great grandchildren (or beyond in some instances) of their own citizens.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Complete List of EU Citizenship by Ancestry/Descent Policies - Investment Migration Insider
> 
> 
> 17 countries offer EU citizenship to grandchildren, great-grandchildren, or sometimes even more distant descendants of European citizens. See our complete list and interactive map.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.imidaily.com


Thanks again for all your replies (a lot less confrontational than I was expecting for which I am surprised and doubly grateful!) I do love these open discussions as in the space of two days I have been slightly deflated and then unexpectedly encouraged without leaving the sofa.

My wife is half Italian, her father hails from Puglia in Southern Itlay although he made his life in Lancashire, he has since returned to Italy and always retained his Italian Passport. I hadn't thought that the visa restrictions would be an issue but it appears we have a way around this. 

I certainly don't want to appear flippant about work. We can't afford to retire and we WILL have to work. However, if the choice was to carry on with our (normal) 50 hour stressful week compared to 30 hours of, let's say €9/hour menial work I think I would be happy working less, earning less but happier.

Hence this nagging question I have about how much (perhaps more pertinently, how little) we need to realistically survive on. 

We are very very far from any kind of new age hippies that would rub ourselves down with dock leaves and survive on fermented mung beans. However, neither of us is materialistic, we like to cook and eat good food but are happier at home than in a bar or restaurant, don't need or want new clothes, would walk rather than drive a new car, and have been lucky enough to travel extensively for many years so a holiday is not a priority.

A long time ago (30 years+) I lived and worked in France for a couple of years and have been back sporadically ever since and am drawn by the people, lifestyle and attitude although I would be lying if I didn't admit that what we can afford in terms of housing wasn't also a big draw.

Please fire away with any holes in my thinking or well aimed jibes.

Russell


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## Nunthewiser

russellbrenton21 said:


> My wife is half Italian, her father hails from Puglia in Southern Itlay although he made his life in Lancashire, he has since returned to Italy and always retained his Italian Passport.


Well, there's your ticket. Your wife is an (undocumented?) EU citizen. Get her a passport and you have full EU FOM rights and right to work.


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## zarathustra

I was going to say the same - if your wife is half Italian, I imagine she could get the Italian passport, then she could come to France, and you can join her relatively easily.

I came to France when I was around 30 (quite some time ago now), and am currently living out in the sticks where there is very little in the way of work (even for the French), but it's a good lifestyle. Like my neighbours, I grow my own food, and neither of us go to restaurants, because it's very rare when the food is better than something fresh from the garden.
It's possible to live on a tight budget - I've managed it, but at the same time always expect the unexpected.Every other month something crops up - additional fuel for a cold month, car problems, a leaking roof,a fallen tree, a failing utility, an unexpected tax demand etc. etc. I've also had to learn to live with an incredibly slow internet speed (it's not such a bad thing!).


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## Bevdeforges

Nunthewiser said:


> Well, there's your ticket. Your wife is an (undocumented?) EU citizen. Get her a passport and you have full EU FOM rights and right to work.


One slight caveat to this plan. We've had a number of folks through here who have run into difficulties getting a carte de séjour (residence permit) as the spouse of an EU national if the EU national spouse doesn't qualify as having a "statut" (basically a reason for having moved to France). The possible statuts available boil down to "employed" "student" or "inactif" - that last one is what's used for retirees. In any case, it's the EU national who would have to prove that they qualify for their statut, which in the case of the inactif partner means they would have to have a pension of some variety. (Plus health cover for both partners.)

Technically, the terms and conditions of the EU national's statut then apply to the non-EU national's residence permit - so either your wife would have to qualify as a working person by having found a job before you apply for the residence permits, or by having a pension of some variety to fall back on. I'm not sure, however, how strictly that part of the rules are being adhered to currently.

But over in the Italy section of the forum there are a number of threads about people claiming their Italian nationality by ancestry. They may be able to tell you what you'd need to do and how long things will take. I know for Italy there are rules that vary by year of birth and involve which parent can or can't pass on Italian nationality. Probably best to check with them over there and see where you stand, but others have definitely done this before you.


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## Nunthewiser

Bevdeforges said:


> Probably best to check with them over there and see where you stand, but others have definitely done this before you.


Yes. I for one, have done it , but in the US. It should be relatively easy for the OP's wife if she was registered as his daughter in his comune (and, she should have been in AIRE- the national database for citizens residing outside of Italy, if dad is on the ball). There's a great facebook group that can take you through it, though it is mostly for Americans.


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## EuroTrash

russellbrenton21 said:


> I certainly don't want to appear flippant about work. *We can't afford to retire and we WILL have to work*. However, *if the choice was to carry on with our (normal) 50 hour stressful week compared to 30 hours of, let's say €9/hour menial work* I think I would be happy working less, earning less but happier.
> 
> Please fire away with any holes in my thinking or well aimed jibes.


No jibes, and I've said my piece on this already, but I still can't help feeling that this is the weakest link in your plan.
IF you have that choice, what's not to like. Just make sure that you really will have the option.
There seem to have been several posts touching on this lately and I'm sure regular posters must be sick of hearing about me and my couple of years dans la galère, but as I think I said on another thread recently I seems to have been damaged for life by those two years to the extent that it's not an experience I will ever forget, and I seem to have made it my mission to warn other people. The story is that I arrived in France with a steady freelance activity that gave me plenty to live on, then came the financial crash of 2008/2009 and I lost most of my work. And I simply could not find a job or a viable way to earn enough to live on. It's true that I hadn't expected to ever need to look for a job when I chose where to live so in that sense I had put myself at a disadvantage, but I spoke good French, I have a decent CV though I say it myself with lots of qualifications and a good career history, and in the UK I never had any trouble at all getting jobs, I seem to be quite good at writing applications and saying the right things in interviews. All I can say is that I had this growing feeling like a heavy, icey-cold kind of paralysis or helplessness that built up as the weeks and months went by searching high and low for work opportunities and coming up with nothing. I would have loved to be stacking shelves or cleaning toilets or plucking chickens or sweeping the streets for SMIC. Eventually I did blag some decent work tutoring for a busy state-approved training provider, not what I would have chosen but it got me out of the hole and things got better from there on.
So I strongly recommend checking out the work situation before you decide where to live. Don't assume that because you're resourceful, well educated people and you could easily pick up work in the UK, you will automatically be given preference by French employers for even the most menial job over less well educated applicants. It tends to work the other way. If an employer is looking for a cleaner he will likely feel it more appropriate to choose the person who has done a course in cleaning techniques, has experience of working as a cleaner and is applying for this job because it's what they chose to train to do and it's the only work they're qualified for.

Sorry to labour the point and of coure it's possible that the situation is different now from what it was in 2009, but waking up in the morning knowing you have bills to pay, no money in the bank and no obvious way of getting any apart from asking friends and family if they can lend you a bit more, is a soul destroying place to be and it completely takes the shine off living the dream. If you're going to need jobs, make as sure as you can, in advance, that you will find them.


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## rynd2it

EuroTrash said:


> If you're going to need jobs, make as sure as you can, in advance, that you will find them.


Very wise words ET, echoes my own experience when I moved to the USA, out of work for two years almost had to declare bankruptcy but got a job just in time.


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## Bevdeforges

Again, the big difference between things pre-Brexit and now is that, unless you have a job lined up before your arrival here, it can be exceedingly difficult to get any sort of a visa with working privileges. You can take a look at the requirements for the "passeport talent" if you fancy setting something up for yourselves - start here:





International talents | France-Visas.gouv.fr


The multi-year “passeport talent” residence permit was created to simplify the arrival of entrepreneurs and managers wishing to contribute to France’s economic attractiveness.



france-visas.gouv.fr





But otherwise you'd have to convince a French employer to obtain authorization from the Labor Ministry to hire a non EU foreigner. Like so many administrative things, it's a long, slightly complicated process for the employer and few, if any, employers are going to bother going through it all for a part-timer unless it's a highly technical or skilled job. It didn't used to be that way before Brexit, but as they say, be careful what you ask for...


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## Nunthewiser

Nunthewiser said:


> Yes. I for one, have done it , but in the US. It should be relatively easy for the OP's wife if she was registered as his daughter in his comune (and, she should have been in AIRE- the national database for citizens residing outside of Italy, if dad is on the ball). There's a great facebook group that can take you through it, though it is mostly for Americans.


Replying to my own post, if the OP's wife wants to get her Italian citizenship recognized and has some time, the process is pretty much the same as what I went through in the US. She would need to get an appointment at the Italian consulate in London, bring certified copies of her and her father's birth certificates and perhaps a few other lineage documents and wait, and wait. With most consulates, it takes months or years to get an appointment, and months or years to get recognized. Many people go to Italy to try to shortcut the process, but it can be costly. In her case, having her father there already, I suppose it would be easier.


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## Ricwolfe

You could buy a house in the area you state for s fraction of the UK cost
No inflation though


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## russellbrenton21

A quick follow-up query. If we assume my wife could be granted her EU citizenship and I could piggyback onto her right to work/reside. Would a gite be an acceptable proof of income? So, to keep the maths easy, let's say that the authorities wanted to see €20,000 annual income for us as a couple. 

If we bought a property with a gite could we project €5,000 per year (for example) as income thereby only needing to prove an additional €15,000? Would this only be acceptable with proven receipts of historic revenue? By extension could that be extended to additional gites? camping grounds? etc.

I have a few more questions bubbling in my mind but am trying to pace myself!!!


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## Bevdeforges

If your wife is the EU national in the family, she would have to show that she has an income capable of supporting you both and that both she and you have the appropriate health cover for you to apply for a carte de séjour as the spouse of an EU national within 90 days of your arrival in France to "join" her. In other words, if you're going to claim income from a gite, your wife would have to have the gite set up and get herself registered in the Sécu Social system first so that she would have the appropriate documents to present for your carte de séjour application.


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