# When & how did it hit you that you're actually living in Spain?



## AllHeart

I hit another really deep layer today that I'm actually living in Spain.  Having lived in Canada since I was a year old and never having lived anywhere else, I'm wondering when it's actually going to hit me. When I asked immigrant friends to Canada, almost everyone said a year. My Scottish neighbour here also said it took her a year. 

There have been many layers of this hitting me, like getting my ID, setting up healthcare, renting my apartment and preparing my nest here, getting to know my neighbours and neighbourhood, meeting my family, learning Spanish... It's like going through onion layers, with each time thinking, "Oh, this is what it means to feel like I've really living in Spain." Then I get hit with another layer, like today.

Today was a walk in the park and along the beach, which I've done before. But this time it felt like I was really here and really connected, and kept thinking, "I'm living in Spain. I'm really, really living in Spain. Wow." So I hit another onion layer today. 

Does anyone relate to this? If so, I'd love to hear your experience. When and how did it hit you that you're actually living in Spain? Or are you still going through the onion layers?


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## Pesky Wesky

AllHeart said:


> I hit another really deep layer today that I'm actually living in Spain.  Having lived in Canada since I was a year old and never having lived anywhere else, I'm wondering when it's actually going to hit me. When I asked immigrant friends to Canada, almost everyone said a year. My Scottish neighbour here also said it took her a year.
> 
> There have been many layers of this hitting me, like getting my ID, setting up healthcare, renting my apartment and preparing my nest here, getting to know my neighbours and neighbourhood, meeting my family, learning Spanish... It's like going through onion layers, with each time thinking, "Oh, this is what it means to feel like I've really living in Spain." Then I get hit with another layer, like today.
> 
> Today was a walk in the park and along the beach, which I've done before. But this time it felt like I was really here and really connected, and kept thinking, "I'm living in Spain. I'm really, really living in Spain. Wow." So I hit another onion layer today.
> 
> Does anyone relate to this? If so, I'd love to hear your experience. When and how did it hit you that you're actually living in Spain? Or are you still going through the onion layers?


It still "hits" me every so often and I've lived here for nearly 30 years.
It also "hits" me from time to time that I'm a mother and always will be no matter where my daughter is and what she's doing.
Maybe I'm a slow learner


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## mrypg9

Brits have always travelled widely and either lived in or spent long periods of time in other countries. It's easy for us to move around Europe and living on a small island, it's easy to get away.
There's also our links with parts of our former Empire, especially Canada, Australia and so on. So the concept of 'abroad' comes easier to us, perhaps. My OH has lived in five countries, I've lived in four and spent long periods of time in several others. Many posters are accustomed to moving around the globe with their families for work.
So it's not that it's no big deal, living in Spain, of course it is, but it's much less of a culture shock for most of us as we have probably visited Spain many times or bought property years before actually living.
Sometimes I think that Spain is a little too 'familiar' to some would- be British immigrants as a few seem to think that the transition will be seamless and that no knowledge of the language or what's actually going on in Spain is needed.


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## AllHeart

mrypg9 said:


> Brits have always travelled widely and either lived in or spent long periods of time in other countries. It's easy for us to move around Europe and living on a small island, it's easy to get away.
> There's also our links with parts of our former Empire, especially Canada, Australia and so on. So the concept of 'abroad' comes easier to us, perhaps. My OH has lived in five countries, I've lived in four and spent long periods of time in several others. Many posters are accustomed to moving around the globe with their families for work.
> So it's not that it's no big deal, living in Spain, of course it is, but it's much less of a culture shock for most of us as we have probably visited Spain many times or bought property years before actually living.
> Sometimes I think that Spain is a little too 'familiar' to some would- be British immigrants as a few seem to think that the transition will be seamless and that no knowledge of the language or what's actually going on in Spain is needed.


Okay, so you can't relate to what I'm saying. Thanks for explaining why.



Pesky Wesky said:


> It still "hits" me every so often and I've lived here for nearly 30 years.
> It also "hits" me from time to time that I'm a mother and always will be no matter where my daughter is and what she's doing.
> Maybe I'm a slow learner


I really like your analogy with being a mom.  So how does it hit you still, after 30 years of living here?


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## Pesky Wesky

AllHeart said:


> Okay, so you can't relate to what I'm saying. Thanks for explaining why.
> 
> 
> 
> I really like your analogy with being a mom.  So how does it hit you still, after 30 years of living here?


Hmmm, maybe when I realise that I understand some things about Spain more than some things about the UK, like the health system or roundabouts! 
Or I realise that I no longer see the way the Spanish do things through British eyes, like for example I don't think a labourer lying in a shade bit of pavement having a nap is lazy per se. I'm more likely to think he's a hard worker who's been at it since sun up, who has probably done his fair share of travelling to get to his place of work and is more than likely getting paid a shhit wage too. Or the old bloke in the hardware shop in town who used to slam everything down on the counter, not because he was angry, but because he was proud to be serving you and this was his way of being professional and giving good service.
When I see tv shows about the '90's in Spain and I recognise a lot of the people and shows and I think "Gosh I've been here a long time"
So maybe it's just a realisation that I've been here a long time and Spain is just as much a part of me as the UK is.
And that makes you think sometimes.
But happy thoughts


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## Pesky Wesky

Another layer is familiarity, when your area becomes familiar to you or foods are no longer wierd or shops/ bars/ lawyers offices closing in August is the norm and not a cause for complaint...


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hmmm, maybe when I realise that I understand some things about Spain more than some things about the UK, like the health system or roundabouts!
> Or I realise that I no longer see the way the Spanish do things through British eyes, like for example I don't think a labourer lying in a shade bit of pavement having a nap is lazy per se. I'm more likely to think he's a hard worker who's been at it since sun up, who has probably done his fair share of travelling to get to his place of work and is more than likely getting paid a shhit wage too. Or the old bloke in the hardware shop in town who used to slam everything down on the counter, not because he was angry, but because he was proud to be serving you and this was his way of being professional and giving good service.
> When I see tv shows about the '90's in Spain and I recognise a lot of the people and shows and I think "Gosh I've been here a long time"
> So maybe it's just a realisation that I've been here a long time and Spain is just as much a part of me as the UK is.
> And that makes you think sometimes.
> But happy thoughts


I have realised after over six years that I don't have to bust a gut to make an appointment exactly on time. Maybe that's realising I live in Spain
When we lived in Prague I always felt as if I were an outsider, which of course I was, but I really felt it and it wasn't just language and culture.
This sounds daft but I put it down to the country being landlocked. I grew up and spent a third of my life right by the sea. I saw it almost everyday. Now I'm living once more where I am by the sea, I can see it from my bedroom window. So in a way it feels more like 'coming home;, if you get what I mean, and Spain wasn't really that strange as I had visited many times either for long holidays in Ibiza or at my son's place.
I think a lot of Brits have a 'wherever I lay my hat I'm home' attitude to 'abroad', maybe a psychological relic of when Britain ruled the world.
As for being a Mum....I was in a state of total shock, don't think I'm over it yet, when I contemplate the now sizeable being I gave birth to all those years ago...
Thinking back reminds me of a line I heard in a biopic of Sophia Loren, when her partner said accusingly 'How did you come to find yourself pregnant?'
That stuck in my mind.


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Another layer is familiarity, when your area becomes familiar to you or foods are no longer wierd or shops/ bars/ lawyers offices closing in August is the norm and not a cause for complaint...


And when you routinely book a meal in a restaurant for 9.30 p.m. or later...


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## Lynn R

I relate to Pesky Wesky's comments about things which seemed odd and different at first becoming commonplace (like the shops and businesses down here having different opening hours in summer) and knowing when local holidays and fiestas are coming around, and which saint they relate to! Also seeing a young teenager and realising they were a toddler when you arrived, or a young couple with their baby who were primary school kids when you first met them (but I suppose that's part of living in a community anywhere rather than Spain per se).

I think the first time it really hit me that I was living in a foreign country was when I got the news, a month after we'd moved, that my father had had a stroke and was in hospital. It was a matter of getting on the first plane back as quickly as I could, and going backwards and forwards for the next six months. That was an "OMG, what have I done" feeling at first, but when I thought about it, the fact that I'd given up my job to move here meant that I was actually able to spend far more time with my Dad in hospital than I ever could have if I'd still had a full time job with extensive travel commitments, long hours and last minute crises cropping up, and trying to negotiate time off with an employer.


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## kalohi

It's not quite the same, but I can remember one year (15+ years ago) after a trip to visit my parents in the States when my kids were very small, it was such a relief to return to Spain. Everything in the States had seemed strange and difficult, and returning to Spain just seemed good and right. And _that's_ when I realized that my place was definitely here in Spain, and for once and for all I gave up on any dreams I might have had of moving back to the States with my family. My place was here. This was home.


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## mrypg9

Lynn R said:


> I relate to Pesky Wesky's comments about things which seemed odd and different at first becoming commonplace (like the shops and businesses down here having different opening hours in summer) and knowing when local holidays and fiestas are coming around, and which saint they relate to! Also seeing a young teenager and realising they were a toddler when you arrived, or a young couple with their baby who were primary school kids when you first met them (but I suppose that's part of living in a community anywhere rather than Spain per se).
> 
> I think the first time it really hit me that I was living in a foreign country was when I got the news, a month after we'd moved, that my father had had a stroke and was in hospital. It was a matter of getting on the first plane back as quickly as I could, and going backwards and forwards for the next six months. That was an "OMG, what have I done" feeling at first, but when I thought about it, the fact that I'd given up my job to move here meant that I was actually able to spend far more time with my Dad in hospital than I ever could have if I'd still had a full time job with extensive travel commitments, long hours and last minute crises cropping up, and trying to negotiate time off with an employer.



That brought back memories. Just after we had finalised our plans to move to Spain from Prague, Sandra's mother was diagnosed with cancer. 
She flew over to Glasgow several times before we left Prague and continued flying regularly from Malaga until her mother died a year after we arrived in Spain. Fetching her from the airport was a reminder I was in yet another 'strange' place. 
She was fortunate that this occurred six years ago as there are no longer any direct flights to Glasgow from Malaga.
I don't have the same feeling now when I pick up friends and family from airports.


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## Derek H

I have no wish to appear flippant. 
But when you stop having new experiences, are you brown bread ?

Derek


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## tarot650

AllHeart said:


> I hit another really deep layer today that I'm actually living in Spain.  Having lived in Canada since I was a year old and never having lived anywhere else, I'm wondering when it's actually going to hit me. When I asked immigrant friends to Canada, almost everyone said a year. My Scottish neighbour here also said it took her a year.
> 
> There have been many layers of this hitting me, like getting my ID, setting up healthcare, renting my apartment and preparing my nest here, getting to know my neighbours and neighbourhood, meeting my family, learning Spanish... It's like going through onion layers, with each time thinking, "Oh, this is what it means to feel like I've really living in Spain." Then I get hit with another layer, like today.
> 
> Today was a walk in the park and along the beach, which I've done before. But this time it felt like I was really here and really connected, and kept thinking, "I'm living in Spain. I'm really, really living in Spain. Wow." So I hit another onion layer today.
> 
> Does anyone relate to this? If so, I'd love to hear your experience. When and how did it hit you that you're actually living in Spain? Or are you still going through the onion layers?


Interesting thread.After 7years we sold our house on the coast and moved roughly 120K inland to a nice and most enjoyable Spanish village which is 100% Spanish where you get to know the people who own the businesses and you get to be part of the Spanish community.Now don't get me wrong this is not everybody's cup of tea but it's nice to feel part of the community.Especially when somebody knocks on your door and invites you to their son's wedding then you realize that you have been accepted.When I look back our life style is a complete contrast to when we came to Spain over 20years ago.I am not saying there is anything wrong with the coast but there always seemed to be something missing which we only found when we moved inland.At first people were suspicious of us as there was only one other English family in the village but once we were accepted and we found our little bit of happiness.


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## fergie

Our first home we owned in Spain,was a holiday home, was bought as just that, many years ago. We were always happy to land on the plane and do the short drive to our holiday home. We were UK based then, so home wasUk.
We have lived and travelled a lot overseas, due to husbands work, since buying the first Spanish home, living in HK became our home, helped by the fact we moved our familiar furniture, and of course our pets there, I would say our HK home as big as it was, became a residence rather than feeling like a proper home.
We bought this place we live in now, while we still lived in HK, so commuted to Spain for the odd holiday, and to organise on going work in the villa. This present house only feels like home since we have both lived here permanently, have our familiar things like furniture, and our well travelled dog with us. Each time we holiday anywhere, or visit UK, it is a great feeling inside when we are heading home, we are always excited to see 'our'mountain, the Montgo, and we know we are home. Having lived here for a few years we have more or less got used to the Spanish way of doing things, sometimes red tape, less as time goes by and everything which should be, is legally declared and set up.


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## Pesky Wesky

I think we're talking about related but different things that are actually difficult to separate at times.
AllHeart asked when and how did it hit you that you are* actually living in Spain*, not when did you start thinking of Spain as home or when did you start to feel part of the picture instead of a looker on.
I'm not complaining, I'm just saying that for me they are related but different aspects of a theme.

There are times when I stop and am thankful that I'm doing what I'm doing (having a cup of tea in the garden, or more often than not looking at some mountains in the distance) and that I'm not somewhere else, but that somewhere else could be Madrid, or Marbella or the one and only Weston super Mare!

I still sometimes get the sensation that I'm in a foreign land, normally when it's hot HOT, that heat that you don't get in the UK, and you hear the insects in the grass and you can feel the heat coming off the road, but at the same time I'm used to it, it's comforting not threatening... It's because I'm actually living in Spain
Oh well, I know what I mean


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## Lynn R

One moment each year when I really know I live in Spain is during one of the Semana Santa processions, of which we have many here, on Good Friday alone there are 6.

However, on the Wednesday evening it is the turn of the Virgen de los Desamparados who is the patron saint of the barrio I live in. They carry her trono to the foot of the steps leading up to the Puerta Real, the gateway into the barrio, and part way up the steps and back again 3 times to salute the little camarin to the Virgen set high in the city wall (bear in mind this is a huge trono carried by 140 men, it's quite a manoeuvre), chanting "Viva, viva, La Reina de la Villa" with the crowd applauding and shouting out "Guapa, guapa". I am not in the least religious but the first time I saw it it made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up and brought tears to my eyes, and it still does. I don't go to see many of the processions now, but I don't miss that one if I can help it.


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## Pesky Wesky

AllHeart said:


> I hit another really deep layer today that I'm actually living in Spain.  Having lived in Canada since I was a year old and never having lived anywhere else, I'm wondering when it's actually going to hit me.
> Does anyone relate to this? If so, I'd love to hear your experience. When and how did it hit you that you're actually living in Spain? Or are you still going through the onion layers?


AllHeart, I'd like to "congratulate" you on the questions you ask in the forum, if that doesn't sound too condescending. More often than not they are simple queries that would often get glib one line answers, but as they are carefully constructed and worded you make us stop and think and analyse our answers


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## Pesky Wesky

fergie said:


> Our first home we owned in Spain,was a holiday home, was bought as just that, many years ago. We were always happy to land on the plane and do the short drive to our holiday home. We were UK based then, so home wasUk.
> We have lived and travelled a lot overseas, due to husbands work, since buying the first Spanish home, living in HK became our home, helped by the fact we moved our familiar furniture, and of course our pets there, I would say our HK home as big as it was, became a residence rather than feeling like a proper home.
> We bought this place we live in now, while we still lived in HK, so commuted to Spain for the odd holiday, and to organise on going work in the villa. This present house only feels like home since we have both lived here permanently, have our familiar things like furniture, and our well travelled dog with us. Each time we holiday anywhere, or visit UK, it is a great feeling inside when we are heading home, we are always excited to see 'our'mountain, the Montgo, and we know we are home. Having lived here for a few years we have more or less got used to the Spanish way of doing things, sometimes red tape, less as time goes by and everything which should be, is legally declared and set up.


Maybe that's one key moment, when you see/ hear/ do something and react to it more in a Spanish way than an English way. A simple thing idea when you shout GGGGGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLL, Gol, Gol, Gol Gooool!!! When your team scores!
What about saying yes, yes, yes, yes, of course, yes


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## xabiaxica

kalohi said:


> It's not quite the same, but I can remember one year (15+ years ago) after a trip to visit my parents in the States when my kids were very small, it was such a relief to return to Spain. Everything in the States had seemed strange and difficult, and returning to Spain just seemed good and right. And _that's_ when I realized that my place was definitely here in Spain, and for once and for all I gave up on any dreams I might have had of moving back to the States with my family. My place was here. This was home.


yes - that's when I realised that Spain is home

I've only made 4 trips back to the UK in 11 years - the first was only a few months after moving here & it was still new

but after the second trip, the sense of relief at arriving home to Spain was almost palpable

the UK had seemed alien in a way, the people & attitudes seemed odd & with subsequent trips that feeling has only grown

I'm not sure if that means I've changed - maybe I was always like this & was always meant to live here


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## jojo

I could get quite morbid on this subject. The first week of arriving in Spain, I felt I was home. Every morning, driving the children to school I would almost cry with joy at the scenery. I was known for driving along repeating "I love it here" and the knowledge that this was where I was going to live forever just filled me up. Everything about it was perfect - even the imperfections!

Fast forward and we moved back to the UK in 2012 - since then I have just existed here, I go thru the motions..... but I hate it and the thought that I will probably be here for the foreseeable future is depressing to say the least!

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina

AllHeart said:


> Today was a walk in the park and along the beach, which I've done before. But this time it felt like I was really here and really connected, and kept thinking, "I'm living in Spain. I'm really, really living in Spain. Wow." So I hit another onion layer today.
> 
> Does anyone relate to this? If so, I'd love to hear your experience. When and how did it hit you that you're actually living in Spain? Or are you still going through the onion layers?


I love your onion layer analogy. The realisation that you live in Spain doesn't hit you in one go, but in a series of small steps. I've been here nearly seven years now and some of the ones I remember are:


Not panicking because the shops are shut from 2 pm Saturday till 10 am Monday.
Not feeling nervous about walking on my own into a bar full of Spaniards.
Not being embarrassed about putting the rubbish out wearing a dressing gown and slippers.
Realising there's no point going to a restaurant expecting to eat at 8 pm.
Learning to cook and eat what's in season.
Not mentally translating things into English all the time.
Crossing the road to walk in the shade!


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## Lynn R

Alcalaina said:


> I love your onion layer analogy. The realisation that you live in Spain doesn't hit you in one go, but in a series of small steps. I've been here nearly seven years now and some of the ones I remember are:
> 
> 
> Not panicking because the shops are shut from 2 pm Saturday till 10 am Monday.
> Not feeling nervous about walking on my own into a bar full of Spaniards.
> Not being embarrassed about putting the rubbish out wearing a dressing gown and slippers.
> Realising there's no point going to a restaurant expecting to eat at 8 pm.
> Learning to cook and eat what's in season.
> Not mentally translating things into English all the time.
> Crossing the road to walk in the shade!


Plus:-

The first time you are stopped in the street and asked for directions by a Spanish person, and not only can you understand what they've asked you but you can tell them how to get there.


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## tonymar

I think it hit me that I was living in Spain a few weeks after making the move when -

ordering a beer at a local bar in my best Spanish .. then getting served an iced coffee !!!


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## mrypg9

I think Derek is right. You never stop having or being aware of new experiences wherever you are in the world.
Some f the things people have mentioned about making them aware they are in Spain I did back in the UK, like putting out the rubbish in my housecoat. We all did that in our street, some alas without putting their teeth in.
Some things are found in many European countries..in Prague, everything shut on Saturday afternoons until Mondays...even garden centres and video hire shops. I used to eat only what was in season in the UK, most of the time anyway. Ditto in Prague very much so.
The big difference for me is coming home in December, January or February after having dined well...and sitting in the garden after midnight discussing the evening with OH.
Now that is* truly* Spanish...


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## AllHeart

Pesky Wesky, thank you for your compliment. You guys on the forum make me think and feel way beyond what I'm capable of alone, which is why I keep coming back here. 

Everyone's replies sweep me away, especially because your replies are all so different and personal. Thank you for sharing your experiences. I hope to hear more. 

I can see where many of you are talking about the familiar as being the markers of actually being here. So I can see where I may never feel like I'm actually connected to Spain, since it would take a lifetime before I can get familiar with all that is around me because Spain is so different from anywhere I've ever been.

My heart is completely connected to Spain since I was a little girl. So Jojo, I know what you mean, and I'm so sorry that you're not able to live in Spain. My whole life, I've carried around this heartache to live here. So my heart is totally connected here, but it's my head that is slow in connecting because it's all so unfamiliar and I just can't absorb all the intense beauty. It's like everything here is like it's supposed to be. Just to look down at the street and see cobblestones instead of pavement takes my breath away, and leaves me thinking this is how streets should be. Or seeing the delicately crafted wrought iron around a balcony, and thinking this is how it should be. Or walking along the beach and seeing the mountains framing the beach, and thinking this is how it should be. Or hearing people speak the beautiful Spanish language, and thinking this is how it should be. The list goes on forever. Every day I see, smell, feel, touch or hear something that makes me think, this is how it should be.

I've moved a lot, but it was always for head reasons - for school and work. I travelled a lot to many countries for heart reasons, and no country has taken my heart away like Spain has. So this is the first time I've moved for heart and head reasons. 

Maybe that will be the rest of my journey in life, soaking up the beauties around me, knowing that I will never have time for my brain to connect to all the differences in my environment. But the wonderful thing is that my heart and head both want to be here and they both want to connect. Makes me think of Bonnie Raitt's song "Feels like home."


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## Alcalaina

AllHeart said:


> ... Just to look down at the street and see cobblestones instead of pavement takes my breath away, and leaves me thinking this is how streets should be. Or seeing the delicately crafted wrought iron around a balcony, and thinking this is how it should be. Or walking along the beach and seeing the mountains framing the beach, and thinking this is how it should be. Or hearing people speak the beautiful Spanish language, and thinking this is how it should be. The list goes on forever. Every day I see, smell, feel, touch or hear something that makes me think, this is how it should be.


Face it girl, you are in love! May it last for as long as you need it to.

I still get the feeling you describe every time I wake up to see the sun rising over the mountains.


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## el romeral

You realise you are in Spain when:

You pop out to do something simple at the bank and the Post Office and it takes you all day and you still have to go back next day or go somewhere else because there is more to do.

You walk into a "quiet" bar with maybe 3 or 4 people and you are deafened by the noise of their chat.

You find yourself shrugging more than you ever did before.

You want to manouvre your car from A to E. Normally that means having to go via B, C & D first though. Nobody does it the long way though, so you just pull a Spanish one (not advocating breaking the rules of the road, just going with the flow).


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## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> I relate to Pesky Wesky's comments about things which seemed odd and different at first becoming commonplace (like the shops and businesses down here having different opening hours in summer) and knowing when local holidays and fiestas are coming around, and which saint they relate to! Also seeing a young teenager and realising they were a toddler when you arrived, or a young couple with their baby who were primary school kids when you first met them (but I suppose that's part of living in a community anywhere rather than Spain per se).
> 
> I think the first time it really hit me that I was living in a foreign country was when I got the news, a month after we'd moved, that my father had had a stroke and was in hospital. It was a matter of getting on the first plane back as quickly as I could, and going backwards and forwards for the next six months. That was an "OMG, what have I done" feeling at first, but when I thought about it, the fact that I'd given up my job to move here meant that I was actually able to spend far more time with my Dad in hospital than I ever could have if I'd still had a full time job with extensive travel commitments, long hours and last minute crises cropping up, and trying to negotiate time off with an employer.


Things like this are exactly when you understand that you're really living here because you've got your "life" here but ties and or obligations elsewhere.


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## Pesky Wesky

Derek H said:


> I have no wish to appear flippant.
> But when you stop having new experiences, are you brown bread ?
> 
> Derek


If brown bread means dead then I'd say it depends on the person. There are plenty of people who actively avoid having new experiences and plenty of others who just end up in a rut, and others still who are happiest not facing chnage and difference.
New isn't "it " for everyone.
I myself sometines long for a routine and then the moment I have it want to do something different!


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## Pesky Wesky

kalohi said:


> It's not quite the same, but I can remember one year (15+ years ago) after a trip to visit my parents in the States when my kids were very small, it was such a relief to return to Spain. Everything in the States had seemed strange and difficult, and returning to Spain just seemed good and right. And _that's_ when I realized that my place was definitely here in Spain, and for once and for all I gave up on any dreams I might have had of moving back to the States with my family. My place was here. This was home.


Yes, I feel more disenchantment with life in the UK and I am always happy to leave to come back here, and I can identify with "a certain sense of relief to return to Spain"


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## Alcalaina

When you are in England and absent-mindedly go to kiss people on both cheeks.


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## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> When you are in England and absent-mindedly go to kiss people on both cheeks.


The custom is catching on in certain circles.


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## mrypg9

AllHeart said:


> Okay, so you can't relate to what I'm saying. Thanks for explaining why.


I understand what you are saying and yes, I love living in Spain. If I didn't I wouldn't be here.
But I've felt at ease if not at home wherever I've lived and even though I was glad to leave Prague there were very many things I loved about that beautiful city and the village I lived in.
I too savour many moments of my life, from early morning sunrises and evening sunsets on the beaches to things I notice and enjoy when out on the campo to a lunch table laid out by the pool or with friends in a restaurant. Some of these I photo and share with friends on Facebook. Some people on this Forum will have seen them.
I am happy wherever I have my partner, my dogs, my books, my music. My life in the UK was good too although I shan't be going back there. Neither shall I be moving on to rural France, as originally planned. Spain is my home.
I first visited as a student in the late 1960s and in the 1980s used to spend summers here. Then my interests turned to Canada and Eastern Europe. When my son and dil bought a place in Spain I began visiting again.
The most important thing for me is that I'm back where I started, by the sea.


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## baldilocks

My first encounters with Spain had been in 1989 as a transit passenger at Barajas airport en-route to and from Colombia. I had been widowed [widowered] in 1987 and was at the stage of beginning to live again. I had pen-friends in various parts of the world, but I liked the sound of Colombia so I went to take a look. I arrived in Bogotá on September 15th which, as PW will know is St Valentine’s Day there. I stayed for 10 days and had fallen in love – with the country. I decided that I would give up my job in local government which had become tedious and boring since I had completed the task that I had been recruited for. I flew back to Colombia arriving November 17th fully prepared to see just what the country could offer me.

By this time, I had got a taste of the Latin culture and way of life, liked, it wanted more. I met SWMBO 9th December, we got engaged 31st and married January 26th now 25 years ago. A year later we took a weekend cheapy trip to Madrid, went down to Valdepeñas to meet some old friends of SWMBO and then back up to spend the weekend with her godparents. Since then I worked very briefly on a job on the outskirts of Madrid and following the death of my f-i-l in 2005, we brought the m-i-l to UK for a holiday and took her to Spain for a short break. We visited Córdoba, Granada, Ronda and Sevilla. Very impressed. This was my entire prior experience of Spain - unlike many of you, we had not taken numerous holidays here.

I had been planning retirement for some time and had started with some 7 or 8 countries, which we had whittled down progressively to Portugal, France or Spain. SWMBO said that at her age, 48 (the age at which I first started to learn Spanish!) she didn’t want to learn another language so that ruled out Portugal (she was already fluent in French and Spanish). France got removed from the list because of the levels of taxation. So Spain, it was.

Forward planning had ruled out the Costas, so it had to be a bit further inland while avoiding the places that would be extremely hot in summer or freezing cold in winter. We like mountains so that was one item to be ticked off. Armed with estate agents lists from the internet, in September 2006, we came, we saw, we rejected lots of properties. In June 2007, we tried different areas and found properties more to our liking (some absolute disasters as well). We still had our place in UK to sell (it had been on the market for a bit) so we were not in a rush but on the Thursday of our second week (we were due to fly back to UK on the Saturday) we went to this house and as we walked in the door, the house seemed to say to us “You’ve got here at last, then”. The house ‘ticked all the boxes’ being well organised (no having to go though three other bedrooms to get to the bathroom, etc). The price was reasonable (87k for a 3/4 BR, 1 Ba). We went away, thought about it, went into the agent’s office and said we’d like to offer 85k which was accepted. Put down a holding deposit of 1k and set about working out how to get the rest. Extending the loan on our flat was the answer (we had done this previously to buy a place in Florida for the in-laws

September 2007, we paid a bit more, then I had to fly out to Florida because we had, at last (and at a loss), managed to sell the place there. I packed up the m-i-l and put her on a plane to UK, then set about packing what was to go to Spain and what was to go either to secondhand shops or the trash and clean the place ready for the new owners. January 2008, we paid some more for the house and finally completed the purchase in September 2008. October, the flat sold. November 1st, we hired a van and moved lock-stock-and-barrel to Spain. We had been here about a month when one of the builders commented on what a great view we had bought – up till then we hadn’t really looked.

Since then, we look out of our house at our little bit of heaven right here on earth and congratulate ourselves on our good fortune.


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## Pesky Wesky

baldilocks said:


> My first encounters with Spain had been in 1989 as a transit passenger at Barajas airport en-route to and from Colombia. I had been widowed [widowered] in 1987 and was at the stage of beginning to live again. I had pen-friends in various parts of the world, but I liked the sound of Colombia so I went to take a look. I arrived in Bogotá on September 15th which, as PW will know is St Valentine’s Day there. I stayed for 10 days and had fallen in love – with the country. I decided that I would give up my job in local government which had become tedious and boring since I had completed the task that I had been recruited for. I flew back to Colombia arriving November 17th fully prepared to see just what the country could offer me.
> 
> By this time, I had got a taste of the Latin culture and way of life, liked, it wanted more. I met SWMBO 9th December, we got engaged 31st and married January 26th now 25 years ago. A year later we took a weekend cheapy trip to Madrid, went down to Valdepeñas to meet some old friends of SWMBO and then back up to spend the weekend with her godparents. Since then I worked very briefly on a job on the outskirts of Madrid and following the death of my f-i-l in 2005, we brought the m-i-l to UK for a holiday and took her to Spain for a short break. We visited Córdoba, Granada, Ronda and Sevilla. Very impressed. This was my entire prior experience of Spain - unlike many of you, we had not taken numerous holidays here.
> 
> I had been planning retirement for some time and had started with some 7 or 8 countries, which we had whittled down progressively to Portugal, France or Spain. SWMBO said that at her age, 48 (the age at which I first started to learn Spanish!) she didn’t want to learn another language so that ruled out Portugal (she was already fluent in French and Spanish). France got removed from the list because of the levels of taxation. So Spain, it was.
> 
> Forward planning had ruled out the Costas, so it had to be a bit further inland while avoiding the places that would be extremely hot in summer or freezing cold in winter. We like mountains so that was one item to be ticked off. Armed with estate agents lists from the internet, in September 2006, we came, we saw, we rejected lots of properties. In June 2007, we tried different areas and found properties more to our liking (some absolute disasters as well). We still had our place in UK to sell (it had been on the market for a bit) so we were not in a rush but on the Thursday of our second week (we were due to fly back to UK on the Saturday) we went to this house and as we walked in the door, the house seemed to say to us “You’ve got here at last, then”. The house ‘ticked all the boxes’ being well organised (no having to go though three other bedrooms to get to the bathroom, etc). The price was reasonable (87k for a 3/4 BR, 1 Ba). We went away, thought about it, went into the agent’s office and said we’d like to offer 85k which was accepted. Put down a holding deposit of 1k and set about working out how to get the rest. Extending the loan on our flat was the answer (we had done this previously to buy a place in Florida for the in-laws
> 
> September 2007, we paid a bit more, then I had to fly out to Florida because we had, at last (and at a loss), managed to sell the place there. I packed up the m-i-l and put her on a plane to UK, then set about packing what was to go to Spain and what was to go either to secondhand shops or the trash and clean the place ready for the new owners. January 2008, we paid some more for the house and finally completed the purchase in September 2008. October, the flat sold. November 1st, we hired a van and moved lock-stock-and-barrel to Spain. We had been here about a month when one of the builders commented on what a great view we had bought – up till then we hadn’t really looked.
> 
> Since then, we look out of our house at our little bit of heaven right here on earth and congratulate ourselves on our good fortune.


I love your story!
And how brave of you to go to Colombia after being widowered.


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## kimuyen

AllHeart said:


> ... When and how did it hit you that you're actually living in Spain? Or are you still going through the onion layers?


Well, it hit me immediately and still does every single day that I am living in Spain based on the fact that I still don't understand most of what people tell me. I can babbling my way through most (simple enough) things but the minute people start talking to me in more than one sentence and rapid succession, I am lost. And the Spaniard are so endearing. The more I look confused, the more they talk and the faster they talk. 

Sorry, I know this is not what you meant by "living in Spain" but my twisted mind could not help it.  I am sure I will answer this question differently after a year, after 5 years.

All the best to you to get to that last layer of the onion and completely feel "at home".


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## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> I love your story!
> And how brave of you to go to Colombia after being widowered.


I didn't think my marital status had anything to do with it. By the time the flight (Madrid - San Juan [Puerto Rico] - Caracas - Bogotá) got to its last stage there were only about a half-dozen of us left in the Economy cabin and it was interesting to be chatted up by a couple of girls from Cali.


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## 90199

It hasn't hit us yet, 'cos we live in the Canary Islands :confused2:


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## Pesky Wesky

baldilocks said:


> I didn't think my marital status had anything to do with it. By the time the flight (Madrid - San Juan [Puerto Rico] - Caracas - Bogotá) got to its last stage there were only about a half-dozen of us left in the Economy cabin and it was interesting to be chatted up by a couple of girls from Cali.


Oh, those girls from Cali eh

I didn't mean the status as such, but that you'd had a life changing experience in losing your wife...


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## Pesky Wesky

My interpretation of "realising that you are living in Spain" is the realisation that I'm here permanently which was not the plan. I'm not just staying here for a while and going on elsewhere, which _was_ the original plan.

Along with that comes an interest in the country and the future, the ins and outs of things and maybe the need to build my ownstory here which I don't think I would have had before.
Now, I know that's not the case with everyone, but that's what's happened to me


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## Chopera

Pesky Wesky said:


> My interpretation of "realising that you are living in Spain" is the realisation that I'm here permanently which was not the plan. I'm not just staying here for a while and going on elsewhere, which _was_ the original plan.
> 
> Along with that comes an interest in the country and the future, the ins and outs of things and maybe the need to build my ownstory here which I don't think I would have had before.
> Now, I know that's not the case with everyone, but that's what's happened to me


Same here - I've spent many years living in places without feeling a permanent attachment to them. I spent several months in Barcelona in 2002 but never really considered myself to be "living there".

A few milestones for me in Madrid were:

Completing the first year - so I had seen the city at all times of the year, and from then on many events would not be new to me.

Buying a flat after 3 years here - which makes living anywhere else a bit more complicated, so you stop thinking about it and you accept where you are.

First child being born after 7 years here - for the same reasons.

First child starting school - once they're in a school in a certain education system, it is 
even harder to up sticks. It was at this point when I had the rather liberating realisation that this was likely to be my life for the next 10 years at least and I should stop worrying whether "I'm doing the right thing" or if "the grass is greener elsewhere" and instead just enjoy life.


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## Alcalaina

kimuyen said:


> Well, it hit me immediately and still does every single day that I am living in Spain based on the fact that I still don't understand most of what people tell me. I can babbling my way through most (simple enough) things but the minute people start talking to me in more than one sentence and rapid succession, I am lost. And the Spaniard are so endearing. The more I look confused, the more they talk and the faster they talk.


So true! I can speak, read and write Spanish quite well but still can't understand my neighbours unless they "change gear". Sometimes it has its advantages, like when there is a courting couple sitting on my doorstep at 2 am and I really DON'T want to know what they are saying to each other ...


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## mrypg9

What I find a big difference to the UK, Prague and Germany is that people talk to you in doctor's and hospital waiting rooms. 
I've made a couple of friends whilst waiting to see the doc in our consultorio, ones I have coffee with now and then. I was also surprised to be asked what was wrong with me.
I've just come back from the hospital where I had to wait for five hours while Sandra had surgery. I took a book but I didn't read that much as when it was discovered I could converse in Spanish I spent much of the time chatting.
Definitely not like our grim and silent surgery waiting room back in the UK.


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## thrax

Wow what a terrific thread - can it be a sticky?? A very well phrased question AllHeart and it has resulted in so many interesting comments. Alcalaina you nailed it for me. Every single one of your list for me too. But, as for me, I had been visiting Spain (amongst many other countries) since I was 17 and thought I new it well. But as those of us who live here know, it isn't at all like being on holiday. It took me nearly an hour to settle in but that's partly because I am so laid back I spend most of my time gazing at the universe and because my philosophy of living has always included the phrase, 'I am from planet earth and I still live there'. My wife took nearly 2 years to feel at home but now both of us wouldn't dream of leaving for we have found our home here in Spain. But although I have always felt very happy here there are still surprises along the route. Such as taking 2 years to discover the Spanish sell and eat cod more then the Brits do and I didn't know it was called bacalao. I didn't know for a while that hake was merluza etc. Our son starting school was, as it would have been in any country, a wonderfully emotional time. There have been so many new experiences here and there will be so many more. But I'm happy to take my time letting them happen. I don't want to rush anything...


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## tarot650

When you are accepted by the Spanish people in the Spanish community,icing on the cake.I know last year I helped Paco and his son out with their computers and didn't charge them anything as the way I look at it it does not cost anything to do somebody a good favour.Christmas eve afternoon I got a phone call off Paco and he said I have got something for your Christmas dinner for you for helping us.went round to his house and his wife greeted us with the present.Sadly he didn't tell us it was still bloody alive.I made the excuse to decline his offer.I suppose the thought was there..


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## Pesky Wesky

soulboy said:


> When you are accepted by the Spanish people in the Spanish community,icing on the cake.I know last year I helped Paco and his son out with their computers and didn't charge them anything as the way I look at it it does not cost anything to do somebody a good favour.Christmas eve afternoon I got a phone call off Paco and he said I have got something for your Christmas dinner for you for helping us.went round to his house and his wife greeted us with the present.Sadly he didn't tell us it was still bloody alive.I made the excuse to decline his offer.I suppose the thought was there..


I have learnt to be a lot more generous here. I have found Spanish people to be ( and those of you who know me kow that I rarely talk about *T*he *S*panish) more generous with time, help, patience. None of this paying back, charging you for a lift into town, or counting up the favours you've done for someone and expecting something back. Of course this can happen in the UK, but I find it more widespread here, or maybe I've just been lucky


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## thrax

Pesky Wesky said:


> I have learnt to be a lot more generous here. I have found Spanish people to be ( and those of you who know me kow that I rarely talk about *T*he *S*panish) more generous with time, help, patience. None of this paying back, charging you for a lift into town, or counting up the favours you've done for someone and expecting something back. Of course this can happen in the UK, but I find it more widespread here, or maybe I've just been lucky


That is pretty much exactly what we have found. In the campo, where we live, there is a real mix; those who hate us because we aren't Spanish and those who embrace us because we made the effort. In the local villages, Frigiliana and Torrox Pueblo, the Spanish are overwhelmingly welcoming and will do anything for you. So we do our bit and help them whenever we can. And you are so right: it ain't a competition it's just about being human.


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## Pesky Wesky

thrax said:


> Wow what a terrific thread - can it be a sticky?? A very well phrased question AllHeart and it has resulted in so many interesting comments.
> 
> But although I have always felt very happy here there are still surprises along the route. Such as taking 2 years to discover the Spanish sell and eat cod more then the Brits do and I didn't know it was called bacalao. I didn't know for a while that hake was merluza etc. Our son starting school was, as it would have been in any country, a wonderfully emotional time. There have been so many new experiences here and there will be so many more. But I'm happy to take my time letting them happen. I don't want to rush anything...


Yes, having children in the school system is another layer of the old onion. Wait till you get to bachillerato and PAU. Just hope to them on high that there's another system in place by the time your little one gets there 'cos I defy anyone to really understand the system that's in now - Spanish, British, Norwegian or Malaysian, it's Gobbedly **** to everyone


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## Pesky Wesky

thrax said:


> That is pretty much exactly what we have found. In the campo, where we live, there is a real mix; those who hate us because we aren't Spanish and those who embrace us because we made the effort. In the local villages, Frigiliana and Torrox Pueblo, the Spanish are overwhelmingly welcoming and will do anything for you. So we do our bit and help them whenever we can. And you are so right:* it ain't a competition it's just about being human.*


That's it Thrax, you know what I'm on about, and it's not a old worldy country thing. Don't forget my experience is more in Bilbao, Madrid and a large town outside Madrid!


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## thrax

Well our poor lad will have to suffer being taught maths and physics and a few other bits like English Lit by me and although I think I am a very good teacher (based on the knowledge that so far none of my students have failed their exams) it is entirely different from being a parent!!


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> What I find a big difference to the UK, Prague and Germany is that people talk to you in doctor's and hospital waiting rooms.
> I've made a couple of friends whilst waiting to see the doc in our consultorio, ones I have coffee with now and then
> .:mod:Excuse me madam, wasn't coffee on the List Of Forbidden Pleasures??? :mod:
> 
> I was also surprised to be asked what was wrong with me.
> I've just come back from the hospital where I had to wait for five hours while Sandra had surgery.
> 
> Have you two been chatting up the dishy doctor again??
> 
> I took a book but I didn't read that much as when it was discovered I could converse in Spanish I spent much of the time chatting.
> Definitely not like our grim and silent surgery waiting room back in the UK.


***


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## Pesky Wesky

Chopera said:


> Same here - I've spent many years living in places without feeling a permanent attachment to them. I spent several months in Barcelona in 2002 but never really considered myself to be "living there".
> 
> A few milestones for me in Madrid were:
> 
> Completing the first year - so I had seen the city at all times of the year, and from then on many events would not be new to me.
> 
> Buying a flat after 3 years here - which makes living anywhere else a bit more complicated, so you stop thinking about it and you accept where you are.
> 
> First child being born after 7 years here - for the same reasons.
> 
> First child starting school - once they're in a school in a certain education system, it is
> even harder to up sticks. It was at this point when I had the rather liberating realisation that this was likely to be my life for the next 10 years at least and I should stop worrying whether "I'm doing the right thing" or if "the grass is greener elsewhere" and instead just enjoy life.


Yes, those Life Events make you realise that this is it, I'm really living here, and all those things you mention, the house, the kids, knowing what the weather's usually like in April, Christmas traditions etc etc


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## Lynn R

thrax said:


> That is pretty much exactly what we have found. In the campo, where we live, there is a real mix; those who hate us because we aren't Spanish and those who embrace us because we made the effort. In the local villages, Frigiliana and Torrox Pueblo, the Spanish are overwhelmingly welcoming and will do anything for you. So we do our bit and help them whenever we can. And you are so right: it ain't a competition it's just about being human.


We find it almost embarrassing at times if we've done a favour for a neighbour/friend and they always turn up with some small gift, when we know there is precious little money around. But you can't refuse as that would probably give offence.

We once asked a young guy who was reforming a house nearby if we could order some bags of cement and have them delivered along with a load of his stuff (everything of that nature has to be brought up here by tractor and trailer). When the delivery arrived my OH helped him and his brother unload some of their stuff, and not only would he not let us contribute to the delivery charges, he wouldn't let us pay for the cement either. He's a refuse collector who works the night shift and was doing this building work during the day - and a member of a large extended gitano family who live nearby. He and his brothers also pitched in to help us (without being asked) when we were having our electricity supply brought up to standard which involved my OH having to drive an earth spike some distance into the ground - there was a queue of them taking turns. I always think of people like this when we're asked whether it's a problem living with gypsy neighbours.


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## Pesky Wesky

Lynn R said:


> Plus:-
> 
> The first time you are stopped in the street and asked for directions by a Spanish person, and not only can you understand what they've asked you but you can tell them how to get there.


When I lived in Madrid I used the metro a lot and knew it very well. As I looked like I knew where I was going I would get stopped quite often by Spaniards and be asked how to get to so and so. After I'd given them the directions I'd stop and watch them to see what they did. About 50% stopped someone else to see if the guiri had got it right.
Oh well, you can but try


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## Lynn R

Pesky Wesky said:


> When I lived in Madrid I used the metro a lot and knew it very well. As I looked like I knew where I was going I would get stopped quite often by Spaniards and be asked how to get to so and so. After I'd given them the directions I'd stop and watch them to see what they did. About 50% stopped someone else to see if the guiri had got it right.
> Oh well, you can but try


I hadn't thought of doing that - at the time I was just carried away with a wholly exaggerated sense of achievement, you'd have thought I'd discovered a cure for cancer at the very least.


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## baldilocks

"just as ye sow, so shall ye reap" If you act in the right manner towards the locals, that is how they will treat you. Be friendly, warm and welcoming and you will get it back at least a hundredfold.


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## xabiaxica

thrax said:


> Well our poor lad will have to suffer being taught maths and physics and a few other bits like English Lit by me and although I think I am a very good teacher (based on the knowledge that so far none of my students have failed their exams) it is entirely different from being a parent!!


lol - he might listen to you now - but just you wait until he gets older if you try to be teacher & dad at the same time!

I've done English tutoring for the children of English teachers & almost looked for a maths tutor for one of my daughters - I tutor maths!

parent & teacher just don't mix as the children get older!


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## kimuyen

Alcalaina said:


> So true! I can speak, read and write Spanish quite well but still can't understand my neighbours unless they "change gear". Sometimes it has its advantages, ...


I was at a mercado one day with a friend who is a Catalan/Spaniard. I wanted to buy some strawberries but the good ones in the boxes, not those loose ones that they sometimes sneak in a few bad ones. I asked nicely if I could have those in the box but the shop keepers persisted that they were the same and started getting quite agitated. I said thank you and walked away. My friend somehow engaged in quite a heated exchange with the shop keepers and she got quite upset. Since I only understood part of the conversation, it did not upset me as much. Yes, sometimes ignorance is bliss! And I do use it wisely!


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## AllHeart

What incredible insight you're giving me here through your replies. Thank you!

I'm having a few thoughts based on your replies...

My Spanish Bestie is an immigrant from Venezuela, who came here 9 years ago. I've spoken to him about what we're talking about here, and he's read some of your replies. He said he doesn't really relate to what we're saying as to this being his experience, so I realize this isn't everyone's experience. We're all different. After he read some of the replies, he looked at me puzzled, and said something like, "But these people really love Spain. They're not here because they have to be, right? Or perhaps it started out that way?"  What a profound summary, eh?

Another thing I've been thinking is perhaps what we're talking about here is the journey of immigrant integration?

I'm also thinking on why this journey will never be complete, based on the replies from people who have been here for many years. Even though I'm technically a Spaniard, I'm an immigrant because no matter how long I stay here, I will never be like a Spaniard who has been here since birth, and especially not a Spaniard who lives here with generations of family around him/her. Thus the journey through the onion layers never gets to the core. Therein lies the beauty of the journey - I'll go through these onion layers to reach the core of being a Spaniard, without ever being able to get to the core. The beauty lies in going through the onion layers, because with each layer I am reborn to a new way of thinking and feeling - new perspectives. So I will be getting new perspectives for the rest of my life.  That's how it seems, based on my limited experience so far, and what you guys are saying here.


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## Pazcat

I don't really know how to answer this question as whenever I think about it I can see how it could relate to anywhere else and not just Spain but it happens that Spain is where we are now.

For example we got a quick introduction to be being somewhere new and not really knowing a thing about anything, even basic services.
The very day we moved in to the house with the movers moving all our stuff our youngest(2? at the time) became really sick, it was a very hot day, mid 30's, he developed a fever and we got quite worried. Our kids rarely got sick and certainly not this sick. We were all exhausted from the trip, had no internet or phone contacts to chase up doctors, etc... and as worried parents do we worried. Turns out it was the chickenpox which the eldest child promptly caught as well.
It was just a feeling of the unknown and a good indicator of what we had to overcome in the future, thrown in at the deep end as they say.

Still I think of that and I wouldn't exactly call it a Spain specific issue.

A bit like Chopera says I haven't developed that personal attachment yet and maybe that is because our plans haven't exactly worked the way we were planning on just yet. At the moment it still feels like it's a stepping stone to the next stage of our life in Spain.


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## Alcalaina

AllHeart said:


> Another thing I've been thinking is perhaps what we're talking about here is the journey of immigrant integration?
> 
> I'm also thinking on why this journey will never be complete, based on the replies from people who have been here for many years. Even though I'm technically a Spaniard, I'm an immigrant because no matter how long I stay here, I will never be like a Spaniard who has been here since birth, and especially not a Spaniard who lives here with generations of family around him/her. Thus the journey through the onion layers never gets to the core. Therein lies the beauty of the journey - I'll go through these onion layers to reach the core of being a Spaniard, without ever being able to get to the core. The beauty lies in going through the onion layers, because with each layer I am reborn to a new way of thinking and feeling - new perspectives. So I will be getting new perspectives for the rest of my life.  That's how it seems, based on my limited experience so far, and what you guys are saying here.


This is where the concept of nationality is shown for what it is - an artificial label that comes in handy for stereotyping. We all are the product of our experiences, regardless of what it says on our passport, and we are all different.


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## AllHeart

Alcalaina said:


> This is where the concept of nationality is shown for what it is - an artificial label that comes in handy for stereotyping. We all are the product of our experiences, regardless of what it says on our passport, and we are all different.


 Alcalaina, I don't know what you mean. Could use other words to explain that, please?


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## AllHeart

Pazcat said:


> I don't really know how to answer this question as whenever I think about it I can see how it could relate to anywhere else and not just Spain but it happens that Spain is where we are now.


Yes, that's what I'm thinking too, which is why I'm thinking on the theme in general of immigrant integration.



Pazcat said:


> For example we got a quick introduction to be being somewhere new and not really knowing a thing about anything, even basic services.
> The very day we moved in to the house with the movers moving all our stuff our youngest(2? at the time) became really sick, it was a very hot day, mid 30's, he developed a fever and we got quite worried. Our kids rarely got sick and certainly not this sick. We were all exhausted from the trip, had no internet or phone contacts to chase up doctors, etc... and as worried parents do we worried. Turns out it was the chickenpox which the eldest child promptly caught as well.
> It was just a feeling of the unknown and a good indicator of what we had to overcome in the future, thrown in at the deep end as they say.
> 
> Still I think of that and I wouldn't exactly call it a Spain specific issue.
> 
> A bit like Chopera says I haven't developed that personal attachment yet and maybe that is because our plans haven't exactly worked the way we were planning on just yet. At the moment it still feels like it's a stepping stone to the next stage of our life in Spain.


Is there a personal attachment in the moment, though, when the life of your children lies in the hands of the healthcare providers? For me, I've developed a strong attachment here, to hand my life over to the healthcare providers. It's been a particularly positive and profound connection, because they're treating symptoms and illnesses that have never been treated before. I'm developing trust in the healthcare providers - trust I had lost in Canada a long time ago. Newfound trust is a new perspective. That's another way I say, "Oh, this is what it means to be actually living in Spain."


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## Pazcat

AllHeart said:


> Is there a personal attachment in the moment, though, when the life of your children lies in the hands of the healthcare providers?


I guess you can look at it like that but in all honesty we have very little to do with the healthcare providers here, a check up here and there and that's about it. I can understand if it is something you rely upon and it can make a huge difference.
It's possible it's just taken for granted though.


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## AllHeart

Pazcat said:


> I guess you can look at it like that but in all honesty we have very little to do with the healthcare providers here, a check up here and there and that's about it. I can understand if it is something you rely upon and it can make a huge difference.
> It's possible it's just taken for granted though.


 Yes, we're all looking at different aspects and from different angles. That's what I like so much of people's replies, including yours. 

Perhaps what you describe as a stepping stone, someone else might describe as a milestone, and someone else might describe as an onion layer? Who knows. We're all in our own distinct hearts and heads.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Pazcat said:


> I don't really know how to answer this question as whenever I think about it I can see how it could relate to anywhere else and not just Spain but it happens that Spain is where we are now.


Of course. This is what I meant by on the first page of the thread


> AllHeart asked when and how did it hit you that you are* actually living in Spain*, not when did you start thinking of Spain as home or when did you start to feel part of the picture instead of a looker on.
> I'm not complaining, I'm just saying that for me they are related but different aspects of a theme.
> 
> There are times when I stop and am thankful that I'm doing what I'm doing (having a cup of tea in the garden, or more often than not looking at some mountains in the distance) and that I'm not somewhere else, but that somewhere else could be Madrid, or Marbella or the one and only Weston super Mare!


I'm interpreting the question as 

*When & how did it hit you that you're actually living in Spain?*

as opposed to

*When & how did it hit you that you're actually living in Spain?*

Similar, but different!


----------



## AllHeart

Pesky Wesky said:


> Of course. This is what I meant by on the first page of the thread
> I'm interpreting the question as
> 
> *When & how did it hit you that you're actually living in Spain?*
> 
> as opposed to
> 
> *When & how did it hit you that you're actually living in Spain?*
> 
> Similar, but different!


I love how you think! 

Or...

*When & how did it hit you that you're actually living in Spain? *But all interpretations are welcome!


----------



## kalohi

AllHeart said:


> My Spanish Bestie is an immigrant from Venezuela, who came here 9 years ago. I've spoken to him about what we're talking about here, and he's read some of your replies. He said he doesn't really relate to what we're saying as to this being his experience, so I realize this isn't everyone's experience. We're all different. After he read some of the replies, he looked at me puzzled, and said something like, "But these people really love Spain.They're not here because they have to be, right? Or perhaps it started out that way?"  What a profound summary, eh?


I've been here for 29 years so that's given me plenty of time to change my opinion more than once about what I think of living here. I have not always had a love relationship with Spain, not by a long shot. I went through some very dark and difficult years. A stand-out bad time was when my first child was born with medical problems, and I had NO support here while at the same time it was tearing my parents' hearts out that their first grandchild was half a world away. It was also very difficult when that same child started school and right from the beginning in preschool he had multiple problems. Again, there was no support for him or us, and I wanted desperately to tear up stakes and "go home". At that point I DID have to be here, I had no choice, because their Spanish father would never consider moving to the States, and if we had separated he would never have let me take the kids away. Leaving the kids was not an option for me, so I had to stay. 

So as you can see it has been a long journey for me, and the journey has not followed a straight path. I felt very much like an outsider who didn't belong here in the situations described above, but before those situations and between them too there were times when I felt happy here. As I explained in an earlier post, it was a couple of years after my son started preschool when I returned from a visit to the States that I finally realized that this was home. 

Of course even now I don't _always _love _everything_ here. The are good and bad points to living everywhere. The trick is to find a place with the balance leaning toward the good. For me I've found it.


----------



## Alcalaina

AllHeart said:


> Alcalaina, I don't know what you mean. Could use other words to explain that, please?


Well, I'll do my best! You said that although you now have Spanish citizenship, you will never be like a Spaniard who was born in Spain - as if there was some essence of "Spanishness" that you will never achieve. I believe there is no such thing, that people's characteristics are not shaped by their nationality, but by their experiences as they go through life. Everyone is different therefore; some conform to their national stereotypes, but there just as many who don't.

So there isn't a "core" to being Spanish, which you will magically discover at the centre of your onion. You could say that you are adding layers to your own personal onion, via the experiences you are having in Spain.


----------



## AllHeart

kalohi said:


> I've been here for 29 years so that's given me plenty of time to change my opinion more than once about what I think of living here. I have not always had a love relationship with Spain, not by a long shot. I went through some very dark and difficult years. A stand-out bad time was when my first child was born with medical problems, and I had NO support here while at the same time it was tearing my parents' hearts out that their first grandchild was half a world away. It was also very difficult when that same child started school and right from the beginning in preschool he had multiple problems. Again, there was no support for him or us, and I wanted desperately to tear up stakes and "go home". At that point I DID have to be here, I had no choice, because their Spanish father would never consider moving to the States, and if we had separated he would never have let me take the kids away. Leaving the kids was not an option for me, so I had to stay.
> 
> So as you can see it has been a long journey for me, and the journey has not followed a straight path. I felt very much like an outsider who didn't belong here in the situations described above, but before those situations and between them too there were times when I felt happy here. As I explained in an earlier post, it was a couple of years after my son started preschool when I returned from a visit to the States that I finally realized that this was home.
> 
> Of course even now I don't _always _love _everything_ here. The are good and bad points to living everywhere. The trick is to find a place with the balance leaning toward the good. For me I've found it.


 Sorry to use that vague word "love." We all have our definition of that. Perhaps we can leave that word out? But to me it has something to do with that expression, "I love you, warts and all."

I can relate to what you're saying here. I'm having a hell of a hard time with a lot of things too, including what we're talking about here - connecting. Connecting is difficult for me. Learning how the healthcare system works has been difficult for me too, and continues to be. But re the trust thing of healthcare providers, I've come a long way. There are sooooooo many systems that I have yet to figure out even the basics of. I'm confused and overwhelmed in many ways, both in my heart and head. But to me that can be part of love too.


----------



## AllHeart

Alcalaina said:


> Well, I'll do my best! You said that although you now have Spanish citizenship, you will never be like a Spaniard who was born in Spain - as if there was some essence of "Spanishness" that you will never achieve. I believe there is no such thing, that people's characteristics are not shaped by their nationality, but by their experiences as they go through life. Everyone is different therefore; some conform to their national stereotypes, but there just as many who don't.
> 
> So there isn't a "core" to being Spanish, which you will magically discover at the centre of your onion. You could say that you are adding layers to your own personal onion, via the experiences you are having in Spain.


Thanks for explaining what you mean another way. From what you say, you're not understanding what I'm saying, so I'll also try again with different words. This is from my perspective of what it is to be Spanish.

I'll never know what it is like to grow up and mature into adulthood and live into my 50s...

...with grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins.
...with easy access to Spanish foods.
...with the Mediterranean at my doorstep or at least nearby.
...learning Spanish as my first language.
...with the rest of Europe all around me.
...with a family burial plot.
...with cobblestone streets.
...with narrow pedestrian and scooter streets.
...having experienced Franco's rule.
...having access to and maybe interest in the intricate political debates of Spain.
...voting in the hopes of changing the Spanish systems.
...hearing and seeing the flamenco.
...going to school and learning about the history of Spain.
...with the wildlife of Spain around me.
...experiencing the changes over the years in Spain.

I will never know what it is to grow up with all that is Spain and all that is Spanish. 

There are aspects distinct in every country. Thankfully. There are aspects distinct to every person. Thankfully. And every family, and every community, and every continent, and, and, and... Thankfully.


----------



## Alcalaina

AllHeart said:


> Thanks for explaining what you mean another way. From what you say, you're not understanding what I'm saying, so I'll also try again with different words. This is from my perspective of what it is to be Spanish.
> 
> I'll never know what it is like to grow up and mature into adulthood and live into my 50s...
> 
> ...with grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins.
> ...with easy access to Spanish foods.
> ...with the Mediterranean at my doorstep or at least nearby.
> ...learning Spanish as my first language.
> ...with the rest of Europe all around me.
> ...with a family burial plot.
> ...with cobblestone streets.
> ...with narrow pedestrian and scooter streets.
> ...having experienced Franco's rule.
> ...having access to and maybe interest in the intricate political debates of Spain.
> ...voting in the hopes of changing the Spanish systems.
> ...hearing and seeing the flamenco.
> ...going to school and learning about the history of Spain.
> ...with the wildlife of Spain around me.
> ...experiencing the changes over the years in Spain.
> 
> I will never know what it is to grow up with all that is Spain and all that is Spanish.
> 
> There are aspects distinct in every country. Thankfully. There are aspects distinct to every person. Thankfully. And every family, and every community, and every continent, and, and, and... Thankfully.


True, but if you had grown up here you might not find these things so appealing!


----------



## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> ***


 I've cut my coffee intake from maybe ten cups a day to one large cup from a cafetiere and one small solo from the super-duper Italian espresso machine I bought with money I got from selling a car. Any more than that is descaffeinado.
Two years ago I was told I had serious heart problems and might need a marco paso...now if all goes well when I see cardio in October I should be pill-free, cured! And all because I followed instructions: lost weight, cut out certain foods, only two small glasses of wine a day..haven't had a G & T since 2012...
Yesterday in the CdS Hospital waiting room a man came in, in pjs, attached to a wheeled drip. He told everyone there that he was due to be discharged today but had no money and nowhere to sleep. He gave a long explanation as to why, not all of which I understood. 
Everyone in the waiting room, maybe twenty people, gave him money...notes, not coins. Some of the donors looked quite needy themselves. As usual, I had not a cent on me, only credit cards. I was the only one who didn't give. I was so ashamed. I burrowed into my book.
Now I'm not saying that there are no kind people or good neighbours in the UK or anywhere else in the world. Of course there are. Neither is Spain the only 'beautiful' country in the world. Even the Czech Republic offered many stunning landscapes and quaint corners to those who bother to look. I love living here more than anywhere else but I could settle and be happy quite easily in Germany or France.
But in my experience Spain is a place where you are more likely to come across warm, generous caring people than many other countries and for me, it's people not scenery that makes me feel 'at home'.
I have not really had a moment when I've thought 'Gosh! I'm living in Spain'. I'm not the sensitive type, not in that way. But maybe it's when you don't think about living in Spain that you subconsciously know you are and you understand it's your home, if you get what I mean. It doesn't mean taking things for granted, it just means an easy familiarity. Hard to express in words.

And yes, I still think there's a law that says you have to be drop dead gorgeous to work for the Andalucia Health Service


----------



## mrypg9

Alcalaina said:


> This is where the concept of nationality is shown for what it is - an artificial label that comes in handy for stereotyping. We all are the product of our experiences, regardless of what it says on our passport, and we are all different.


Nationality is a accident of birth. True. But an accident which, like most accidents, has profound consequences. People fight and die for the concept of nationality, even though most national frontiers are politically drawn and many are quite illogical.

If we spend most of our lives in one country, our experiences will have the stamp of that culture, however diffuse. You and I grew up in a country where concepts of legality and morality are very different from those of, say, Somalian, Mexican, Czech or even French or German women.

We talk about how we appreciate Spanish culture and so on, accepting thereby that it is different somehow from English culture. There must be an English culture, otherwise how could we differentiate it from any other?

I don't get hung up about the fact that I'm British although I'm glad I wasn't born in Saudi Arabia. Nationality is a concept, like 'internationalism;, another concept...yet nationality, meaningless that it may be to some, has done more to shape events in the world than 'internationalism'.
Shaped for the worst, I'll admit.


----------



## Chopera

kalohi said:


> I've been here for 29 years so that's given me plenty of time to change my opinion more than once about what I think of living here. I have not always had a love relationship with Spain, not by a long shot. I went through some very dark and difficult years. A stand-out bad time was when my first child was born with medical problems, and I had NO support here while at the same time it was tearing my parents' hearts out that their first grandchild was half a world away. It was also very difficult when that same child started school and right from the beginning in preschool he had multiple problems. Again, there was no support for him or us, and I wanted desperately to tear up stakes and "go home". At that point I DID have to be here, I had no choice, because their Spanish father would never consider moving to the States, and if we had separated he would never have let me take the kids away. Leaving the kids was not an option for me, so I had to stay.
> 
> So as you can see it has been a long journey for me, and the journey has not followed a straight path. I felt very much like an outsider who didn't belong here in the situations described above, but before those situations and between them too there were times when I felt happy here. As I explained in an earlier post, it was a couple of years after my son started preschool when I returned from a visit to the States that I finally realized that this was home.
> 
> Of course even now I don't _always _love _everything_ here. The are good and bad points to living everywhere. The trick is to find a place with the balance leaning toward the good. For me I've found it.


Sounds like you had a really tough time. The importance of having a support network really hits home when you have kids, and in Spain that's assumed to be the extended family. If you don't have that here then I can see how you can feel very isolated.


----------



## brocher

mrypg9 said:


> That brought back memories. Just after we had finalised our plans to move to Spain from Prague, Sandra's mother was diagnosed with cancer.
> She flew over to Glasgow several times before we left Prague and continued flying regularly from Malaga until her mother died a year after we arrived in Spain. Fetching her from the airport was a reminder I was in yet another 'strange' place.
> She was fortunate that this occurred six years ago as there are no longer any direct flights to Glasgow from Malaga.
> I don't have the same feeling now when I pick up friends and family from airports.


Mary, I don't know if you and Sandra still visit Glasgow, but there are direct flights with Easyjet, Ryanair and maybe Jet2 as well.


----------



## brocher

mrypg9 said:


> What I find a big difference to the UK, Prague and Germany is that people talk to you in doctor's and hospital waiting rooms.
> I've made a couple of friends whilst waiting to see the doc in our consultorio, ones I have coffee with now and then. I was also surprised to be asked what was wrong with me.
> I've just come back from the hospital where I had to wait for five hours while Sandra had surgery. I took a book but I didn't read that much as when it was discovered I could converse in Spanish I spent much of the time chatting.
> Definitely not like our grim and silent surgery waiting room back in the UK.


I often see comments like this..... or that someone likes living in Span better because there are no longer stuck in traffic jams..... o in another recent thread, where offers of help etc were rebutted by strangers.

I see these differences as having less to do with whether it is Spain or the UK, and more to do with the area of Dpain, or the area of the UK, you live in.

Where I live, North of Scotland, there are no traffic jams, strangers still speak to each other and kids play outdoors.

I pass a couple of old gentlemen many mornings on myway to work, who are out for their constitutional - there is always a comment on the weather or a "fit like" ( how are you), folk chat in the doctors waiting room or supermarket queue. 

Recently, I was sitting on a bus reading the local newspaper, and an elderly gent shouted over, quite naturally, from a few seats back to ask if so and so's funeral details was in the paper..... and he took it for granted that I would know who he was talking about!

I will say, this attitude is becoming less common among younger people.

PS not rreally qualified to comment on this thread, but I first knew I was "living" in Spain when my daughter came home from work and asked what on earth I was washing now.......I realised I was constantly washing everything in sight because I needed to take advantage of the "fine" day when I could get it dried outside!


----------



## AllHeart

Alcalaina said:


> True, but if you had grown up here you might not find these things so appealing!


 I'm not saying they're all appealing. If you look at my examples, you'll see some that are obviously not appealing to most people. But they're all about being Spanish.

So I'm never going to be a Spaniard because I can't undo my previous life. But perhaps I can do what you so beautifully say,



Alcalaina said:


> You could say that you are adding layers to your own personal onion, via the experiences you are having in Spain.


 I'm still thinking on that. Thank you.


----------



## baldilocks

brocher said:


> I often see comments like this..... or that someone likes living in Span better because there are no longer stuck in traffic jams..... o in another recent thread, where offers of help etc were rebutted by strangers.
> 
> I see these differences as having less to do with whether it is Spain or the UK, and more to do with the area of Dpain, or the area of the UK, you live in.
> 
> Where I live, North of Scotland, there are no traffic jams, strangers still speak to each other and kids play outdoors.
> 
> I pass a couple of old gentlemen many mornings on myway to work, who are out for their constitutional - there is always a comment on the weather or a "fit like" ( how are you), folk chat in the doctors waiting room or supermarket queue.
> 
> Recently, I was sitting on a bus reading the local newspaper, and an elderly gent shouted over, quite naturally, from a few seats back to ask if so and so's funeral details was in the paper..... and he took it for granted that I would know who he was talking about!
> 
> I will say, this attitude is becoming less common among younger people.
> 
> PS not rreally qualified to comment on this thread, but I first knew I was "living" in Spain when my daughter came home from work and asked what on earth I was washing now.......I realised I was constantly washing everything in sight because I needed to take advantage of the "fine" day when I could get it dried outside!


We have often commented on the difference in Doctors waiting rooms, how in UK, people will sit in silence and pretend they aren't there. Here, of course the health centre is also a social centre with some people just popping in to see if anyone they know is there and to have a quick chat.

We have no traffic jams here either, it isn't until you start to get into Granada or Jaén, that we see much in the way of traffic and that is usually in the "rush"hour. Driving the 75 km to Granada we may meet less than 50 vehicles, whereas back in UK it was like driving along in a 60 mph traffic jam.


----------



## AllHeart

brocher said:


> ...PS not rreally qualified to comment on this thread, but I first knew I was "living" in Spain when my daughter came home from work and asked what on earth I was washing now.......I realised I was constantly washing everything in sight because I needed to take advantage of the "fine" day when I could get it dried outside!


....


----------



## kalohi

Chopera said:


> Sounds like you had a really tough time. The importance of having a support network really hits home when you have kids, and in Spain that's assumed to be the extended family. If you don't have that here then I can see how you can feel very isolated.


You're so right. Unfortunately my in-laws aren't "typical" Spaniards and they're very stand-offish. They're not unpleasant but they won't have much of anything to do with us. And of course back when my kids were born there was no internet - so no skyping with grandma, no googling childhood diseases, and no online forums.  Even having a landline phone was a bit of a luxury. We waited for 2 years to get our first phone installed.


----------



## mrypg9

brocher said:


> Mary, I don't know if you and Sandra still visit Glasgow, but there are direct flights with Easyjet, Ryanair and maybe Jet2 as well.


From Malaga? And all the year round? Sandra used to fly with an operator called Globespan, if I remember correctly but they stopped flights acouple of years ago.
It might encourage her to visit as she hasn't been back for four years.
I went for a conference a couple of years ago. Had a great time après-conference dining well but have only just thawed out...


----------



## mrypg9

brocher said:


> I often see comments like this..... or that someone likes living in Span better because there are no longer stuck in traffic jams..... o in another recent thread, where offers of help etc were rebutted by strangers.
> 
> I see these differences as having less to do with whether it is Spain or the UK, and more to do with the area of Dpain, or the area of the UK, you live in.
> 
> Where I live, North of Scotland, there are no traffic jams, strangers still speak to each other and kids play outdoors.
> 
> I pass a couple of old gentlemen many mornings on myway to work, who are out for their constitutional - there is always a comment on the weather or a "fit like" ( how are you), folk chat in the doctors waiting room or supermarket queue.
> 
> Recently, I was sitting on a bus reading the local newspaper, and an elderly gent shouted over, quite naturally, from a few seats back to ask if so and so's funeral details was in the paper..... and he took it for granted that I would know who he was talking about!
> 
> I will say, this attitude is becoming less common among younger people.
> 
> PS not rreally qualified to comment on this thread, but I first knew I was "living" in Spain when my daughter came home from work and asked what on earth I was washing now.......I realised I was constantly washing everything in sight because I needed to take advantage of the "fine" day when I could get it dried outside!



I think people in Glasgow are very sociable. Sandra was trying on a jacket in M&S once and a woman commented, nicely, that 'it disnae suit ye, hen '. Being a Southerner, I was taken aback at this familiarity.

So yes, you're right, it depends which part of Spain or theUK,you're talking about.


----------



## brocher

mrypg9 said:


> From Malaga? And all the year round? Sandra used to fly with an operator called Globespan, if I remember correctly but they stopped flights acouple of years ago.
> It might encourage her to visit as she hasn't been back for four years.
> I went for a conference a couple of years ago. Had a great time après-conference dining well but have only just thawed out...


From Malaga direct to Edinburgh, Glasgow Int and Glasgow Prestwick. Not quite so many in winter but yes, loads most of the year round.

I can just hear that Glasgiw woman! Up here we probably wouldn't volunteer that information unless specifically asked for our opinion. -but we might well offer up an unsolicited compliment in a changing room.


----------



## Leper

Forget about everything you have read here about when it hits you that you have arrived in Spain. Don't believe these people.

You are standing in a lengthy queue in the supermarket to pay for your goods. You are in a dreadful hurry (you have to get to the airport to collect a couple of unofficial taxi punters and you want the return journey also and you are running late).

The operative at the check-out till has just received a mobile telephone call from her Novio (football drenched chain smoking beach bum) and you can see by her body language that the call is going to go on and on. Your eyes are rolling, you change queues to see the exact same thing happening there. At this stage you are pulling out what's left of your hair. Suddenly, you remember this is Spain aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh!


----------



## baldilocks

Leper said:


> Forget about everything you have read here about when it hits you that you have arrived in Spain. Don't believe these people.
> 
> You are standing in a lengthy queue in the supermarket to pay for your goods. You are in a dreadful hurry (you have to get to the airport to collect a couple of unofficial taxi punters and you want the return journey also and you are running late).
> 
> The operative at the check-out till has just received a mobile telephone call from her Novio (football drenched chain smoking beach bum) and you can see by her body language that the call is going to go on and on. Your eyes are rolling, you change queues to see the exact same thing happening there. At this stage you are pulling out what's left of your hair. Suddenly, you remember this is Spain aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh!


You are obviously still in pre-Spain mode and misunderstood the "mañana" bit. It does NOT mean 'tomorrow' but "tranquila," relax, what's the rush? You don't want get to heaven (or hell) before your turn. It's like the driver of car in front stopping to have a quick word with somebody, you don't hoot unless it takes too long.


----------



## tarot650

Leper said:


> Forget about everything you have read here about when it hits you that you have arrived in Spain. Don't believe these people.
> 
> You are standing in a lengthy queue in the supermarket to pay for your goods. You are in a dreadful hurry (you have to get to the airport to collect a couple of unofficial taxi punters and you want the return journey also and you are running late).
> 
> The operative at the check-out till has just received a mobile telephone call from her Novio (football drenched chain smoking beach bum) and you can see by her body language that the call is going to go on and on. Your eyes are rolling, you change queues to see the exact same thing happening there. At this stage you are pulling out what's left of your hair. Suddenly, you remember this is Spain aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh!


You for got to mention banks,official buildings,trafico,but that is part and parcel of living in Spain and if you don't like the way Spanish people do things don't come,Easy peasy.


----------



## angil

Gonna pip in with a recent story;
On my way to a doc's appt, taxi driver lost (they always are!), me panicking about being late! I told the lovely, but lost, taxi driver I was worried about being late for my appt. 
he said "don't worry this is Spain, no problem"
"Even for a doctors appointment?" I asked,
"Si!"
Okay I arrived 30 mins late. Flew into the surgery full of apologies. The doctors and the receptionist said, almost in unison.
"No problem, you are here now"
So there is a flip side that I have now benefited from regarding the "manana" culture which, after manic Asia, drove me up the flippin wall when I first arrived here!
As for knowing when you are actually live somewhere? I am very much wherever I lay my hat sort of gal / where my kids are. If that is a hotel room in my grotty hometown for 7 weeks! (don't ask) or Asia for 14 years or Spain for dear knows how long well that's where I am calling home, warts 'n' all! When you have kids and you move around you have to make a home pretty sharpish to help them settle if nothing else.


----------



## Lynn R

mrypg9 said:


> I think people in Glasgow are very sociable. Sandra was trying on a jacket in M&S once and a woman commented, nicely, that 'it disnae suit ye, hen '. Being a Southerner, I was taken aback at this familiarity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They must have a lot in common with the Spanish! My OH was trying on a fleece in Dunnes in Malaga capital one day when a very pretty young Spanish woman came up and asked him what size it was. She explained she wanted to buy one for her father and "he is tall like you, but he is flat", she said, gesturing towards the OH's generous middle region.


----------



## baldilocks

Despite what mrypg says I (another southerner and a male, to boot) have been know to offer unsolicited comments such as saying to a middle-aged lady who was trying on a hat in BHS (or it might have been M&S) that it looked very good on her (it did, too!) and kit was accepted quite graciously. However, on another occasion I was told it was nothing to do with me!


----------



## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> Despite what mrypg says I (another southerner and a male, to boot) have been know to offer unsolicited comments such as saying to a middle-aged lady who was trying on a hat in BHS (or it might have been M&S) that it looked very good on her (it did, too!) and kit was accepted quite graciously. However, on another occasion I was told it was nothing to do with me!


But we know you like chatting up women, Baldy, you old rogue.


----------



## mrypg9

Not that I think about it much, I just get on with life wherever I am, like angil, but there must be a huge difference between coming to Spain with a family to work and coming in retirement to enjoy a work-free life.
Mind you, I now find I'm doing more or less what I've always done, wherever I lived, namely spending time at long-winded political meetings, involving myself in various organisations and trades unionism, plus all the usual daily chores. 
Because I am retired, I find friends are more inclined to invite you for coffee, lunch etc. than if I were working. 
A big difference from having to present myself at a workplace from nine to five or whatever in any country.


----------



## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> But we know you like chatting up women, Baldy, you old rogue.


I have been known to compliment men as well although not to chat them up. I do believe in helping people to feel good about themselves - it helps to reduce feelings of insecurity which are far too common these days (much TV advertising doesn't help "Are you worried about hair loss/going grey? Do you worry about bad breath/personal freshness? etc.)


----------



## Pazcat

soulboy said:


> You for got to mention banks,official buildings,trafico,but that is part and parcel of living in Spain and if you don't like the way Spanish people do things don't come,Easy peasy.


I rarely find a comment like "if you don't like it don't come" helpful yet it is used so widely in many contexts. In this case I think it should be more like "if you don't like it then tough, join the rest of us".

Spanish people don't necessarily like it either and just because they accept it like we all do doesn't stop them from complaining about things. Maybe they should all leave too.
The Spanish are certainly the most vocal about whatever little injustice is put in front of them at any given moment from what I have seen and of course there is plenty of fodder for that.

Even putting the Kafkaesque official nonsense aside there is clearly a desire to escape this manana label by businesses and industry because it is those businesses that realise there is a better way to do things and have changed that seem to be the most successful. If I'm honest most of what was described in Leper's post is foreign to me, aside from the officialdom. I don't recognise it as there is more than enough places around that will give you good service.
Sure not everyone lives in a big city to take advantage of that choice but then that is the price you pay for a more rural life, no matter where in the world you are not just Spain.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I'm also not saying when it does happen you don't have a right to voice a negative opinion of it.


----------



## AllHeart

mrypg9 said:


> Not that I think about it much, I just get on with life wherever I am, like angil, but there must be a huge difference between coming to Spain with a family to work and coming in retirement to enjoy a work-free life.
> Mind you, I now find I'm doing more or less what I've always done, wherever I lived, namely spending time at long-winded political meetings, involving myself in various organisations and trades unionism, plus all the usual daily chores.
> Because I am retired, I find friends are more inclined to invite you for coffee, lunch etc. than if I were working.
> A big difference from having to present myself at a workplace from nine to five or whatever in any country.


 Why we came here and who we came with definitely changes our perspective on when it hits us that we're actually living here, since we're looking for different things. That's a lot of my new perspective, being suddenly retired just prior to coming to Spain. Just retirement alone has so many layers of hitting me that I'm actually retired. So I'm looking at the world through new eyes as a retiree, and it keeps hitting me. I just hit a new layer of OMG I'm actually retired because I'm just putting up all my business equipment for sale. So I'm still digesting that I'm actually retired. Then there's the actually retired in Spain. It's a lot to process for this simple gal! :confused2:


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## kalohi

Pazcat said:


> I rarely find a comment like "if you don't like it don't come" helpful yet it is used so widely in many contexts. In this case I think it should be more like "if you don't like it then tough, join the rest of us".
> 
> Spanish people don't necessarily like it either and just because they accept it like we all do doesn't stop them from complaining about things. Maybe they should all leave too.
> The Spanish are certainly the most vocal about whatever little injustice is put in front of them at any given moment from what I have seen and of course there is plenty of fodder for that.
> 
> Even putting the Kafkaesque official nonsense aside there is clearly a desire to escape this manana label by businesses and industry because it is those businesses that realise there is a better way to do things and have changed that seem to be the most successful. If I'm honest most of what was described in Leper's post is foreign to me, aside from the officialdom. I don't recognise it as there is more than enough places around that will give you good service.
> Sure not everyone lives in a big city to take advantage of that choice but then that is the price you pay for a more rural life, no matter where in the world you are not just Spain.
> 
> I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I'm also not saying when it does happen you don't have a right to voice a negative opinion of it.


I was thinking the same thing. I know this type of behavior is considered stereotypically Spanish, and yet I never encounter it. Does it really happen? Is it a village thing?


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## Pesky Wesky

kalohi said:


> I was thinking the same thing. I know this type of behavior is considered stereotypically Spanish, and yet I never encounter it. Does it really happen? Is it a village thing?


I don't find it either. 
I'm not saying I don't ever get fed up of being in a queue, or that I'm always served by a smiling, interested shop assistant, but no more than in the UK

However I have read a fair few posts from people complaining about customer service here.


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## Alcalaina

kalohi said:


> I was thinking the same thing. I know this type of behavior is considered stereotypically Spanish, and yet I never encounter it. Does it really happen? Is it a village thing?


Not in my experience. There are funcionarios who are hampered by woefully inadequate IT systems and lack of training, neither of which are their fault, but they do their best to be helpful.


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## baldilocks

kalohi said:


> I was thinking the same thing. I know this type of behavior is considered stereotypically Spanish, and yet I never encounter it. Does it really happen? Is it a village thing?


Not a village thing. OK, they are even more relaxed about things in a village, e.g. chatting at the till perhaps, but if you are in a hurry, they will all make way for you just as YOU will for them (or be considered an ignorant foreigner). It is just a case of 'go with the flow'.


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## mrypg9

AllHeart said:


> Why we came here and who we came with definitely changes our perspective on when it hits us that we're actually living here, since we're looking for different things. That's a lot of my new perspective, being suddenly retired just prior to coming to Spain. Just retirement alone has so many layers of hitting me that I'm actually retired. So I'm looking at the world through new eyes as a retiree, and it keeps hitting me. I just hit a new layer of OMG I'm actually retired because I'm just putting up all my business equipment for sale. So I'm still digesting that I'm actually retired. Then there's the actually retired in Spain. It's a lot to process for this simple gal! :confused2:


I think realising I was actually retired hit me most!! Bliss!!
I had a friend I worked with who stuck up an enormously long roll of paper in the staffroom which she used to cross off days to her retirement. As the date approached, she would announce 'Sixty-two!' or whatever. The Head thought it bad for morale and said she should remove it but she didn't as staff rooms are traditionally no-go areas for Heads.

When I said earlier that we Brits are easy in our attitude to 'abroad', I didn't mean we were blasé, taking it for granted. It's the logistics.
One of the reasons we didn't move to Canada as planned was that it's a darned long journey to and from Ottawa or Montreal. Not the short-haul to most European destinations. Another reason was that I began to understand that I was too 'European' for the rural Ottawa Valley, and perhaps too 'urbanised'. Maybe we would have felt more at home in Quebec, who knows.... I somehow doubt it.

There's also the fact that because of our former Empire, we have relations world-wide...in Africa, Australasia, North America. So we are perhaps more laid back about anywhere abroad...again, I don't know.. Just know how I feel.


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## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> However I have read a fair few posts from people complaining about customer service here.


Much depends on one's own approach. Accept that the problem is frequently not the fault of the person you are dealing with. Be nice, friendly and helpful and you will often meet with more success and satisfaction.



Alcalaina said:


> Not in my experience. There are funcionarios who are hampered by woefully inadequate IT systems and lack of training, neither of which are their fault, but they do their best to be helpful.


Again, be nice, friendly and helpful and you will often meet with more success and satisfaction.


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## AllHeart

kalohi said:


> I was thinking the same thing. I know this type of behavior is considered stereotypically Spanish, and yet I never encounter it. Does it really happen? Is it a village thing?


 I was thinking the same thing too, but didn't want to say anything because I'm new here to Spain. I was also thinking perhaps my perception is off since I'm newly retired. But I've been looking for this since this topic frequently comes up on the forum. People in business and personally have always been on time with me and service has been excellent practically everywhere I've gone. But I do find people to be less aggressive and more gentle here - the Spaniards and immigrants. Perhaps this can be misconstrued as a negative thing?


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## Pazcat

I think there is plenty of bad or bizarre service around, enough to take notice of but here at least there are enough options to use the good ones.
I do often wonder how some businesses keep their head above water.


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## kalohi

Pesky Wesky said:


> I don't find it either.
> I'm not saying I don't ever get fed up of being in a queue, or that I'm always served by a smiling, interested shop assistant, but no more than in the UK
> 
> However I have read a fair few posts from people complaining about customer service here.


But customer service _policy_ is often the problem as far as I can see it. Of course people complain if the policy is - you bought it, it's yours, even if the product falls apart, shrinks, isn't as advertised, or is unusable. Spaniards complain too!


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## xabiaxica

kalohi said:


> I was thinking the same thing. I know this type of behavior is considered stereotypically Spanish, and yet I never encounter it. Does it really happen? Is it a village thing?


I've never encountered it either - not in a supermarket

in a shop with one assistant yes, from time to time; but listening to the conversation it's always been business & the assistant has always made eye contact with a signalled apology


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## Lynn R

xabiachica said:


> I've never encountered it either - not in a supermarket
> 
> in a shop with one assistant yes, from time to time; but listening to the conversation it's always been business & the assistant has always made eye contact with a signalled apology


I have, occasionally, but it's by no means the norm. When it comes to returning faulty goods, I've found customer service here to be exceptionally good. I once returned a pair of boots to a shop in another town (had never bought anything else there so they didn't know me from Adam) some months after I'd bought them - I'd bought them in March or thereabouts and put them away until Autumn. When I came to wear them for the first time I notice something sharp sticking through one of the soles. I couldn't find the receipt but still had the shop's carrier bag so thought I'd try exchanging them but expected to get nowhere. Far from it, they were most apologetic and exchanged them straight away. I could quote lots of other examples.

The one thing that really bugs me is customer service staff in public offices taking coffee breaks in the morning, and their desks being left unattended whilst there is a waiting room full of people (the extranjeria, electricity and water company offices, even banks). I do wish they would organise staggered breaks so there is always at least one person there to attend to the customers. I've been in such places when a Spanish client has kicked off about this, loudly, so it isn't just the "foreigner being impatient" thing.


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## Pesky Wesky

kalohi said:


> But customer service _policy_ is often the problem as far as I can see it. Of course people complain if the policy is - you bought it, it's yours, even if the product falls apart, shrinks, isn't as advertised, or is unusable. Spaniards complain too!


But I haven't found that either.
Maybe when we first came here, but does that happen to you now?

Of course Spaniards complain when something like that happens (although last month I took a coat back to a shope because ut was ripped at the seam and I hadn't noticed when I'd bought it and OH was convinced I'd get thrown out of the shop)

I very much dislike the Corte Inglés, but it was they who really changed the rules about taking faulty goods back or even non faulty. The other shops had to follow suit quickly after this became the norm in El Corté. It had little to do with government rulings. Well, that and the fact that most shops on the Spanish Calle Mayor are multinational and have brought their rules into play


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## Lynn R

I was just reminded that yesterday, we were travelling on a local bus when the driver stopped, on a narrow street right in the middle of town, with traffic behind him - so he could collect his packed lunch from his mother who was waiting on the corner to pass it through the window to him. My OH found this irritating but I just thought "ah, bless, she doesn't want her baby boy going hungry".


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## Brangus

This resonates with me more than anything I've read on this forum. Thanks for posting.



kalohi said:


> I went through some very dark and difficult years. A stand-out bad time was when my first child was born with medical problems, and I had NO support here while at the same time it was tearing my parents' hearts out that their first grandchild was half a world away. It was also very difficult when that same child started school and right from the beginning in preschool he had multiple problems. Again, there was no support for him or us, and I wanted desperately to tear up stakes and "go home".


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## Chopera

Pesky Wesky said:


> But I haven't found that either.
> Maybe when we first came here, but does that happen to you now?
> 
> Of course Spaniards complain when something like that happens (although last month I took a coat back to a shope because ut was ripped at the seam and I hadn't noticed when I'd bought it and OH was convinced I'd get thrown out of the shop)
> 
> I very much dislike the Corte Inglés, but it was they who really changed the rules about taking faulty goods back or even non faulty. The other shops had to follow suit quickly after this became the norm in El Corté. It had little to do with government rulings. Well, that and the fact that most shops on the Spanish Calle Mayor are multinational and have brought their rules into play


A few years ago I took a pair of trousers back to ECI because they ripped after I had worn them maybe 3 or 4 times. I thought "no chance" but my wife wanted to give it a go and they did indeed give us a refund.

I think the refund tactic was used a lot by M&S in the UK because it got people back into the shop. The counters would be placed at the back of the shop and you'd have to walk all the way through it to get to them. Also it encourages people to buy gifts, safe in the knowledge that the person receiving the gift could easily exchagne it for another.


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## kalohi

Pesky Wesky said:


> But I haven't found that either.
> Maybe when we first came here, but does that happen to you now?
> 
> Of course Spaniards complain when something like that happens (although last month I took a coat back to a shope because ut was ripped at the seam and I hadn't noticed when I'd bought it and OH was convinced I'd get thrown out of the shop)
> 
> I very much dislike the Corte Inglés, but it was they who really changed the rules about taking faulty goods back or even non faulty. The other shops had to follow suit quickly after this became the norm in El Corté. It had little to do with government rulings. Well, that and the fact that most shops on the Spanish Calle Mayor are multinational and have brought their rules into play


Just recently I bought an article of clothing and tried to return it a few days later - unused, tags still on it, receipt in hand - and all they would do was given me a store credit. They wouldn't return my money. (I can't remember what store it was!) Things like that infuriate me. 

We bought a TV 2 years ago from Carrefour that came with a faulty antenna input socket. (It wasn't there - there was just a hole!) We took it right back and they said that we had broken it and that we had to take the TV to be repaired by the official repair service. The repair was covered by the guarantee, but we wanted to exchange the TV for another, non-defective one and they wouldn't do it. Not happy!!

The biggest problems I've had most recently have been with Orange, but of course all the telecommunication companies are beyond bad with their customer service. They are in a class of their own.


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## mrypg9

I have never had a problem with Spanish customer service. But I had an interesting experience this week.
Two weeks ago I bought a second hand car. Now that I'm going all over the place for election things we need a car each again. I saw the car advertised at an English garage on Facebook and decided I wanted it although it was really a daft vehicle for me, a nippy little Ford Ka Cabrio, colour of gazpacho.
I was very stupid. I bought without first getting an Informe. To cut a long story short, I began to get suspicious about the car and got an Informe from my Gestor. Turns out I had for two weeks been driving a car which hadn't been through an ITV since 2010 and had no insurance, although the car salesman told me that I had a month's cover from the company. To cap it all, the car bore an ITV sticker which didn't match the car registration.
After some threats and much indignation, I got all my money back plus a box of good chocolates, a bottle of champagne and not cava and 100 euros more than I had paid.(4700 euros in total).
So I decided to call it a day.
But.....on Monday I received a text from an ITV station in Toledo informing me that the ITV was due on a vehicle I had never even seen let alone bought but which was in my name.
By now I had had quite enough and went to the police. Mindful that my details, in the possession of the salesman, could be used to buy a hundred cars, I explained the whole saga and produced proof of what I was telling them. Apart from very nicely telling me I had been stupid to buy a car sin Informe, which I knew and had been told many times by various people chiefly Sandra, they were totally disinterested in what was a prima facie case of skulduggery.
Mine is not the only case, as I subsequently found out. There could be many people blissfully unaware of the true status of their cars if bought from that showroom.
I've come out of this with no loss and lesson learned. I bought a more suitable second-hand car, a Freelander Sport, from the garage I've known and trusted for years and should have consulted in the first place. But for all I know there may be a fleet of cars running around in my name ferrying drugs, tarts, who knows what....
The police noted what I had said but I find it totally unbelievable that they were completely disinterested in the evidence I showed them. They didn't even ask to keep it and scarcely gave it a glance. In the UK the Old Bill would have been on to something like this ASAP. I know from our business experience of the motor trade.
So when we eulogise the joys of Spain, let's also bear in mind that the innocent, the naïve or the plain stupid (like me) can discover the reverse side....the apparent toleration of certain crimes, the fact that they are allowed to continue undisturbed. The phrase 'old Spanish customs' wasn't coined for nothing.
Spanish friends are as dismayed and disgusted as I but shrug and say 'What can you do'....in resigned tones.

P.S. I got my money back by reverting to my Headmistress persona.....firm with an undertone of 'No messing, please....or else'.


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## jimenato

I've had the shop assistant on a long phone call but it was in a village shop. The shop was full (with Spanish) all looking at the girl who spent most of the time in silence just listening. It was quite bizarre.

Customer service can be a joke in Spain particularly in the big stores. We took a vacuum cleaner back to Carrefour after a couple of days - it just stopped working. The assistant rudely said we had to take it away and clean it before the techno would look at it. We were amazed - we had expected them simply to exchange it like they would in the UK. Anyway by the time we took it back it was more than 15 days and they refused to do anything at all. 

The exception was Mercadona - always friendly and helpful.


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## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> So when we eulogise the joys of Spain, let's also bear in mind that the innocent, the naïve or the plain stupid (like me) can discover the reverse side....the apparent toleration of certain crimes, the fact that they are allowed to continue undisturbed. The phrase 'old Spanish customs' wasn't coined for nothing.
> Spanish friends are as dismayed and disgusted as I but shrug and say 'What can you do'....in resigned tones.
> 
> P.S. I got my money back by reverting to my Headmistress persona.....firm with an undertone of 'No messing, please....or else'.


I keep telling you that you are more likely to be ripped off by a Brit, but you laugh and don't really listen. Arthur Daley is alive and well and still doing business on the Costa del Sol? Beware or expect the consequences.


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## baldilocks

jimenato said:


> I've had the shop assistant on a long phone call but it was in a village shop. The shop was full (with Spanish) all looking at the girl who spent most of the time in silence just listening. It was quite bizarre.


It might have been somebody having a moan about something the assistant could do nothing about and would not let the said assistant get a word in edgewise.


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## Isobella

Spain doesn't really do customer service except a few exceptions like El Corte Ingles as someone said. 

Worse I experienced was buying two sofas from a shop close to Mijas. We said we didn't want delivery for three weeks as we were having some work done. They were quite happy with that. During that three weeks there was heavy rains and flooding. White sofas delivered with yellowish water marks at the bottom! Implied that because their storage area flooded and we had paid for sofas it was our responsibility. We did eventually get our money back but it took months and we had to sign the Hoja and visit the Consumer office, twice. Leroy Merlin is bad too. Always check out the boxes before buying as there is nearly always something missing if there are loose fittings.


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## baldilocks

Isobella said:


> Spain doesn't really do customer service except a few exceptions like El Corte Ingles as someone said.
> 
> Worse I experienced was buying two sofas from a shop close to Mijas. We said we didn't want delivery for three weeks as we were having some work done. They were quite happy with that. During that three weeks there was heavy rains and flooding. White sofas delivered with yellowish water marks at the bottom! Implied that because their storage area flooded and we had paid for sofas it was our responsibility. We did eventually get our money back but it took months and we had to sign the Hoja and visit the Consumer office, twice. Leroy Merlin is bad too. Always check out the boxes before buying as there is nearly always something missing if there are loose fittings.


We have had good service from Ikea in Málaga and from Citroën in Alcalá la Real


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## Chopera

We've had good service (but average products) from leroy merlin - who seem to be half-expecting stuff to be taken back.

The garage that fixes/services our car is fantastic - incredibly honest and will do odd jobs for free. The guy loves his job and just wants to fix people's cars.

It might be a difference between towns (where there is more competition) and villages (where perhaps there isn't)?


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## mrypg9

baldilocks said:


> I keep telling you that you are more likely to be ripped off by a Brit, but you laugh and don't really listen. Arthur Daley is alive and well and still doing business on the Costa del Sol? Beware or expect the consequences.


Baldy, that is not so. I have repeatedly stated on this Forum that the only previous time I was ripped off was by a Brit..
In the naughty corner!!

And that is why I should have known better....


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## jimenato

baldilocks said:


> It might have been somebody having a moan about something the assistant could do nothing about and would not let the said assistant get a word in edgewise.


Ha! Nice thought Baldi but it was a family member - we heard enough of her side to gather that. She used to do it quite a lot. It didn't bother most of the customers who just went there to chat anyway (there were several chairs for them to relax in) but it used to frustrate me so I avoided it even though I lived just across the road. 

Strangely many of the customers wore nighties and slippers even in the afternoon.


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## jimenato

Isobella said:


> ...Always check out the boxes before buying as there is nearly always something missing if there are loose fittings.


Definitely. We bought a small radio from Carrefour - didn't notice the box was broken and sellotaped up. When we got it home the casing was broken. We took it back and amazingly they gave us another.

Next week we noticed that the first one was back on the shelf.


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## AllHeart

The returns policy in Spain hit me too, in two ways. The first was, "OMG a no-returns policy? This sucks. What am I going to do?" The second was, "OMG, a no-returns policy? I remember that time in Canada that was not too long ago." From your replies, I'm thinking it was the same in the UK also at one time, that there was a no-returns policy.

But what happened in Canada is the big franchises came in and started giving returns for good reasons. Fast forward about 20 years. The small businesses are gone and now people return things for all kinds of reasons, which are often just made up or at the very least frivolous. Examples... Wear the dress for the party, and return it with a self-made rip, and you got to go to the party without having to buy a dress. Buy an obscure kitchen gadget for a recipe, and return it saying it was the wrong size, and you get to use the kitchen gadget for free. Buy a kick-ass stereo system for visiting friends, or just because you want to have it for six months, then return it saying it was broken or it was too big - whatever. There are zillions of examples of returns made without valid reason.

What's the result? The price gets driven up to pay for these returns. You and I pay for those people who are abusing the returns policy. Period.

The new and sexy thing in Canada now is store warranties, which are a 25% mark-up on the product. This is the most hassle-free warranty and people are gobbling it up. But if someone abuses this warranty, that's 75% of the product that is unpaid. So who pays for those abusing the warranties? Again, they have drive the price up to pay for these warranties. Or not enough people use the returns policy warranty, and the store comes out way ahead.

So when I heard about the no-returns policy here, I was disappointed on the one hand, but relieved on the other that I wouldn't be paying for other people's impulsive shopping sprees and lies. So it was kind of like, "Oh, this is what it means to be actually living in Spain." But it was also a deja vu to a life long ago in Canada. So it's an old fashioned way of doing business, and arguably a better way. 

But the same way consumers can abuse a return policy, retailers can abuse a no-returns policy, like some of you say here. I don't know which is worse, but given my experience with the returns policies, I lean towards a no-returns policy where exceptions may be made, but not expected. It's cheaper for the retailer and for the customer.

The best story I have on a returns policy is a friend who was manager at a store. A client came in with an empty bucket of ice cream and said she wanted a refund because she didn't like it. My friend argued with her that she couldn't give a refund since she ate it. The customer demanded to see her boss. My friend was fired and the customer got her refund. My friend didn't adhere to the store's returns policy. I know where I would have told the customer to put that empty ice cream container; that's why I've never even tried working in retail. 

P.S. I do confess to buying a Sony sound bar at El Corte Ingles and returning it because I didn't like it. I was refunded 100%.


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## Pesky Wesky

kalohi said:


> Just recently I bought an article of clothing and tried to return it a few days later - unused, tags still on it, receipt in hand - and all they would do was given me a store credit. They wouldn't return my money. (I can't remember what store it was!) Things like that infuriate me.
> I believe that you are only entitled to your money back if there is something wrong with it. That's where the Corté Inglés policy came in and has more or less taken over. They will take (almost) anything back, but that their decision, and other stores have followed suit, but there is no legal obligation to do anything if you have no actual complaint about the article
> We bought a TV 2 years ago from Carrefour that came with a faulty antenna input socket. (It wasn't there - there was just a hole!) We took it right back and they said that we had broken it and that we had to take the TV to be repaired by the official repair service. The repair was covered by the guarantee, but we wanted to exchange the TV for another, non-defective one and they wouldn't do it. Not happy!!
> That's bad service. I do know of other cases of problems with Carrefour and I remember somone here (Baldi?) saying don't buy anything from Carrefour that has a plug on it. I've only ever taken clothes back to Carrefour and there's been no problem
> 
> The biggest problems I've had most recently have been with Orange, but of course all the telecommunication companies are beyond bad with their customer service. They are in a class of their own.
> Yes, telephone companies are notoriously bad. I had a big problem with Orange and changed back to Moviestar, who I don't like at all, but it seems their customer service is better than most other companies.


+++


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## Pesky Wesky

AllHeart said:


> The returns policy in Spain hit me too, in two ways. The first was, "OMG a no-returns policy? This sucks. What am I going to do?" The second was, "OMG, a no-returns policy? I remember that time in Canada that was not too long ago." From your replies, I'm thinking it was the same in the UK also at one time, that there was a no-returns policy.


I would say there's a semi no returns policy operating in Spain and I certainly remember when it was very difficult to take things back here (I even tried to take something back to Marks and Spencer's here in barrio Salamanca (many years ago) because it had lost colour and shrunk in the wash and the assistant tried to tell me I couldn't because I'd worn it!!)
Then Corte Inglés stepped in, introduced their return anything policy and bit by bit almost all shops followed. They had to what with Corte Inglés and all the other multinational shops with their own policies.
I haven't had to take many things back, but I have been able to in
Corte Inglés (a bag, money back)
Salvador Bachiller (various bag/ wallet things, store voucher which I never spent because I don't like anything in that shop)
Expert (electrical appliances, upgraded model to replace broken appliance)
Carrefour (T shirts etc, money back)
Carrefour - (Sun lounger, it wouldn't fit in the car so I took it right back and got my money back)
Pimkie (coat, exchanged for new one)
Local hardware shop - (Toilet seat(!!) it was supposed to be universal, but it didn't fit our toilet, money back)

Summary.
It is actually illegal for a shop to not refund your money, just as it is in most other countries, if there is something wrong with the product you have bought. It seems that some people have had problems though. Of course you can ask for the "Hojas de reclamación" but it's a whole load of extra hassle and you have to fill them in there and then, so some people decide not to bother. I have never done this, but neither have I needed to thank goodness. I walked out of a fruit and veg shop once after they tried to sell me something mouldy, and I have walked out of shops/ bars where they've taken too long to serve me, but I haven't noticed particularly bad service, or rather find the service comparable to what I know in the UK


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## Pesky Wesky

jimenato said:


> I've had the shop assistant on a long phone call but it was in a village shop. The shop was full (with Spanish) all looking at the girl who spent most of the time in silence just listening. It was quite bizarre.
> No one said anything??
> That's what I find bizarre!
> 
> Customer service can be a joke in Spain particularly in the big stores. We took a vacuum cleaner back to Carrefour after a couple of days - it just stopped working. The assistant rudely said we had to take it away and clean it before the techno would look at it. We were amazed - we had expected them simply to exchange it like they would in the UK. Anyway by the time we took it back it was more than 15 days and they refused to do anything at all.
> 
> Carrefour seems to crop up a lot...
> 
> The exception was Mercadona - always friendly and helpful.
> I took back some flour to Mercadona once as I'd bought the wrong type


***


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Isobella said:


> Spain doesn't really do customer service except a few exceptions like El Corte Ingles as someone said.
> It was me who mentioned Corte Inglés, and I disagree. I think customer service in Spain is fine. Not perfect and there are ocassions where a complaint is necessary, but the only big problem I've had is with Orange
> Worse I experienced was buying two sofas from a shop close to Mijas. We said we didn't want delivery for three weeks as we were having some work done. They were quite happy with that. During that three weeks there was heavy rains and flooding. White sofas delivered with yellowish water marks at the bottom! Implied that because their storage area flooded and we had paid for sofas it was our responsibility. We did eventually get our money back but it took months and we had to sign the Hoja and visit the Consumer office, twice.
> A bad experience, no doubt about it
> Leroy Merlin is bad too. Always check out the boxes before buying as there is nearly always something missing if there are loose fittings.
> A friend of mine had a very bad experience with LM here (El Pinar de Las Rozas) fitting shower screens


+++


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## Pesky Wesky

Chopera said:


> The garage that fixes/services our car is fantastic - incredibly honest and will do odd jobs for free. The guy loves his job and just wants to fix people's cars.


We have a great mechanic here too professional, friendly, polite and HONEST, well the whole team of them are like that. It took us a while to find this guy, but we recommend him to everyone so if anyone ever comes to the Sierra de Madrid try Conrado, P29, Collado Villalba


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## alborino

Pesky Wesky said:


> *The exception was Mercadona - always friendly and helpful.
> I took back some flour to Mercadona once as I'd bought the wrong type*


Food is an interesting one because they shouldn't resell it. It opens the way for a very easy terrorist approach that has been used in the past. And even accidental contamination.

The first ever home delivery I had from Tesco in the UK a few years ago in the mid 90s had over 40 pounds worth of meat that I hadn't ordered. I called them within 30 minutes of the lorry pulling away. They said that we should keep it and eat it. They couldn't take it back as it might have been contaminated. They then insisted on checking I hadn't been charged for it which of course I hadn't.

The sirloin steaks were delicious  Hope the real purchaser didn't wait long for their dinner 

But on topic I see equally good and bad service in Spain and the UK. But on the whole in both I have few complaints


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## Pesky Wesky

alborino said:


> But on topic I see equally good and bad service in Spain and the UK. But on the whole in both I have few complaints


That's basically what I've been trying to say, but in a much more long winded way!!


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## AllHeart

Pesky Wesky said:


> I would say there's a semi no returns policy operating in Spain and I certainly remember when it was very difficult to take things back here (I even tried to take something back to Marks and Spencer's here in barrio Salamanca (many years ago) because it had lost colour and shrunk in the wash and the assistant tried to tell me I couldn't because I'd worn it!!)
> Then Corte Inglés stepped in, introduced their return anything policy and bit by bit almost all shops followed. They had to what with Corte Inglés and all the other multinational shops with their own policies.
> I haven't had to take many things back, but I have been able to in
> Corte Inglés (a bag, money back)
> Salvador Bachiller (various bag/ wallet things, store voucher which I never spent because I don't like anything in that shop)
> Expert (electrical appliances, upgraded model to replace broken appliance)
> Carrefour (T shirts etc, money back)
> Carrefour - (Sun lounger, it wouldn't fit in the car so I took it right back and got my money back)
> Pimkie (coat, exchanged for new one)
> Local hardware shop - (Toilet seat(!!) it was supposed to be universal, but it didn't fit our toilet, money back)
> 
> Summary.
> It is actually illegal for a shop to not refund your money, just as it is in most other countries, if there is something wrong with the product you have bought. It seems that some people have had problems though. Of course you can ask for the "Hojas de reclamación" but it's a whole load of extra hassle and you have to fill them in there and then, so some people decide not to bother. I have never done this, but neither have I needed to thank goodness. I walked out of a fruit and veg shop once after they tried to sell me something mouldy, and I have walked out of shops/ bars where they've taken too long to serve me, but I haven't noticed particularly bad service, or rather find the service comparable to what I know in the UK


Thanks so much for the summary. I didn't know about the law or the hojas de reclamación. 

So, on that topic, one of the ways it can hit us that we're actually living in Spain is the differences that we experience around us, such as returns policies. I am happy to see small businesses still alive and kicking here in Malaga. To me, the franchises are like the mafia - pay up and we'll protect you from the other businesses. Those other businesses include the small businesses that simply can't compete with the franchises and therefore get swallowed whole. For me, it's a flashback here in Malaga to better times in Canada for small businesses, so it's a welcome landscape for me. But in time, it may well be that it will be the same in Spain with the same franchises all over Spain, and in going from town to town there is little difference in the business landscape. 

I do find a difference in the small businesses compared to franchises. Small business is about seeing real people behind the business - something franchises try to mimic in their marketing.


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## baldilocks

The "Hojas de reclamación" can be a very powerful weapon in the hands of the consumer. Such a thing is, as far as I know, unheard of in UK or anywhere else. OK, we (or many) are complaining about lack of customer service here (we personally haven't encountered it) but frequently the mere act of asking for the hoja de... is sufficient to generate the response you are seeking - far better than loads of useless platitudes from customer service or being put on hold by somebody in the far east whose thick accent you could not understand.

In our experience, we get excellent customer service. SWMBO was looking for a couple of single electric blankets yesterday to give to somebody with no heating in the house and their beds are cold and damp - one phone call to a store in the nearby town and they were delivered, by hand, yesterday evening with no charge for delivery - now that *is* customer service.


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## Elyles

It hit me immediately


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## Megsmum

Last Saturday when I had 24 Spanish friends for a party on the finca


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## kovnat

Wecome home


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## MalagaBob

I dont think it ever hits home for some people. Myself, I have to pinch myself every so often to wake up and smell the coffee so to speak.

When I can take my wife and daughter to the beach after I finish work for a stroll, swim or chill time most days of the year with the sun shining is when it hits me most that I should never take this new like for granted


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## Pesky Wesky

cambio said:


> Last Saturday when I had 24 Spanish friends for a party on the finca


Wow, I don't think I've got 24 friends, let alone Spanish ones!
Glad to hear everything's worked out so well for you.


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## baldilocks

Pesky Wesky said:


> Wow, I don't think I've got 24 friends, let alone Spanish ones!
> Glad to hear everything's worked out so well for you.


Define "Friends" 

I think for many, the ones they refer to as "Friends" are not much more than acquaintances and although we might personally think of them as friends, would they ink the same about us?

I like to think that I may have some 50-60 friends here in Spain, in all probability, only about a dozen might think the same or perhaps even less... I have related elsewhere in the past that when I was taken into hospital with a mild heart attack over 100 (her estimate) asked SWMBO how I was and she hadn't even mentioned, to anyone, my situation except that she had had to ask for some dispensation from her teaching duties at the academy. Such is life in a village!


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## AllHeart

I've been here almost a year, and it still hasn't hit me that I'm living in Spain and it still doesn't feel like home to me, other than in my heart. It's just sooooo different here than Canada, and I think that's why - it's just so unfamiliar. Here's Malaga Park, where I've been walking through since I came here. It's my favourite park. Every time I walk through here, I'm stunned by the beauty. I've seen flora like this on vacations, but it's not the norm in Canada. So I still feel like a tourist in this park - and for the same reason everywhere I go in Spain.


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## Megsmum

baldilocks said:


> Define "Friends"
> 
> I think for many, the ones they refer to as "Friends" are not much more than acquaintances and although we might personally think of them as friends, would they ink the same about us?
> 
> I like to think that I may have some 50-60 friends here in Spain, in all probability, only about a dozen might think the same or perhaps even less... I have related elsewhere in the past that when I was taken into hospital with a mild heart attack over 100 (her estimate) asked SWMBO how I was and she hadn't even mentioned, to anyone, my situation except that she had had to ask for some dispensation from her teaching duties at the academy. Such is life in a village!


I presume by "they" you mean me?

All 24 people we had for dinner on Saturday night we class as friends and I know they class us as friends, we can call on them anytime and they call on us anytime for anything, not acquaintances, not people we see from time to time or pass in the street. If i had invited everyone we chat too, meet now and again it would have been well over 60, but we narrowed it down to those who we know are our friends.


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## Megsmum

Pesky Wesky said:


> Wow, I don't think I've got 24 friends, let alone Spanish ones!
> Glad to hear everything's worked out so well for you.


Thanks

In the UK we probably had one or two friends, those you could phone 3am in the morning if in a crisis.

Here we have made so many friends plus know many others. When we decided to have the party on Saturday and started to write the list we were a tad shocked ourselves.

We are doing ok and just seem to have settled in with life here. I think its about state of mind.... if you get my drift


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## Anciana

Elyles said:


> It hit me immediately


It was a tough one, All Heart, and I gave serious consideration to the question when - while living in any of the about 57 countries in which I lived . it did hit me that I live now in that particular country and not in any other.

Quite immedaitely it was not, but about second morning, when I had to decide what language to use to order breakfast. :juggle:

I am lucky to have this happy go lucky personality and innocent curiosity of a child to feel - everywhere, but particularly in my four... or may be seven... home countries - both inside and ouside at the same time, so I can simultaneously participate like a native inside and observe from the outside. Wonder how many other multiple expats feel like that.


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## Pesky Wesky

When carpets on the floor started to give me the heebie geebies.
When I realized I can't get to sleep without having the blinds down.
When I found that I was happy to get to Barajas (Madrid airport)


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## Pesky Wesky

Anciana said:


> It was a tough one, All Heart, and I gave serious consideration to the question when - while living in any of the about 57 countries in which I lived . it did hit me that I live now in that particular country and not in any other.
> 
> Quite immedaitely it was not, but about second morning, when I had to decide what language to use to order breakfast. :juggle:


57!


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## AllHeart

Anciana said:


> It was a tough one, All Heart, and I gave serious consideration to the question when - while living in any of the about 57 countries in which I lived . it did hit me that I live now in that particular country and not in any other.
> 
> Quite immedaitely it was not, but about second morning, when I had to decide what language to use to order breakfast. :juggle:


That's adorable! 

On a related note, I just thought of one.... I translate for people in stores - between the Spanish shopkeeper and patrons. I'm doing it much easier now. It's like there is less time spent in my brain finding the words and they just seemlessly come out. For those of you who are well on your way with Spanish, I think you'll know what I mean.

So translating easier.... That's another layer that it hits me that I'm actually living in Spain.


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