# El Palmar, Cadiz in danger



## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

And another one from the Telegraph
Battle for Trafalgar as developers eye Spain's last unspoilt shores - Telegraph


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

This is our favourite beach! 

Not a bad article for the Torygraph actually, it is pretty even-handed. There is a lot of straggly illegal building there at El Palmar already, and IF the proposed hotel is as low-key and environmentally non-invasive as they say it will be - big IF - it could provide much-needed jobs without being too disastrous.

But the main factor which has always prevented the Costa de la Luz suffering the fate of the Costa del Sol is the W I N D ... Long may it blow!


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## Joturke (Sep 24, 2009)

Antonio Verdú, mayor of Vejar was recently interviewed at length on this project’s future and not surprisingly he spoke in detail of how much local support from residents there is for the realization of the project and that despite the continued failure to find a backer to invest in and manage the project-he remained confident of overcoming the objections and financial problems.
Meanwhile those against this long running project, particularly “Ecologistas en Acción continue making their opinions public both nationally and through the European Commission. 

It may well be that wind surveys deter potential hotel chains from taking the plunge, but sand surveys did not deter the earlier local development in Costa Ballena.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> But the main factor which has always prevented the Costa de la Luz suffering the fate of the Costa del Sol is the W I N D ... Long may it blow!



The perfect place for wind turbines !!!!!

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jojo said:


> The perfect place for wind turbines !!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Yes, we have plenty of those! And solar farms.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Joturke said:


> Antonio Verdú, mayor of Vejar was recently interviewed at length on this project’s future and not surprisingly he spoke in detail of how much local support from residents there is for the realization of the project and that despite the continued failure to find a backer to invest in and manage the project-he remained confident of overcoming the objections and financial problems.
> Meanwhile those against this long running project, particularly “Ecologistas en Acción continue making their opinions public both nationally and through the European Commission.
> 
> It may well be that wind surveys deter potential hotel chains from taking the plunge, but sand surveys did not deter the earlier local development in Costa Ballena.


I can´t make my mind up on this, I can see the pros and the cons. On balance I think I have to oppose it, on the basis that once development starts it is impossible to reverse it, and it´s "wildness" is very special. And it´s unlikely that many jobs would go to local people.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Over 80% of the Spanish coastline developed and people are wondering whether part of the remaining 20% should be developed?????!!!!!!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Over 80% of the Spanish coastline developed and people are wondering whether part of the remaining 20% should be developed?????!!!!!!


They should perhaps look at knocking down some the developed stuff that it now looking shabby, dated and untidy and start again!!!!

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jojo said:


> They should perhaps look at knocking down some the developed stuff that it now looking shabby, dated and untidy and start again!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


What about the people who live there though? Where do you put them in the meantime?

In El Palmar the existing development consists of small houses, farms, hostels and surf schools, very low key and a bit scruffy. Much of it is illegal.

There is still a lot of undeveloped coast down here, but it is owned by the military. They let the public onto the beaches in July and August, when they hold a sort of ceasfire ... You can watch the squaddies doing their PT exercises on the beach, quite entertaining!

The best thing IMO would be to designate all of it as a nature reserve, legalise what´s there already and then just let it be.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> What about the people who live there though? Where do you put them in the meantime?


I know it couldnt be done - well not easily, but its Spains downfall now IMO!!! Its the concrete jungle that gives Spain its not so glamorous reputation as a holiday destination unfortunately

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> They should perhaps look at knocking down some the developed stuff that it now looking shabby, dated and untidy and start again!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Now there's an idea!

Well, this one is finally being knocked down after 20 years of never being used
Demolition of Alicate Golf building started | LISTAndalucia

And this is the famous pryamid like hotel right on the coast in Cabo de Gata which has been condemmed, but then I heard there's n way of getting the rubble out without doing more damage ???
This article says there's a danger it might be declared legal again?!!

Greenpeace concern continues at El Agarrobico Hotel


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

jojo said:


> I know it couldnt be done - well not easily, but its Spains downfall now IMO!!! Its the concrete jungle that gives Spain its not so glamorous reputation as a holiday destination unfortunately
> 
> Jo xxx


There's always smth that can be done IMO. If good ol' Weston Super Duper Mare can make improvements, the first in the approx 40 years my family had been living there, I'm sure CDS can invest in their seafront.


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## Joturke (Sep 24, 2009)

One thing for sure is that those against this project have over the past years communicated their views and as far as I know from the local press and web reports continue to do so- clearly a hot potato.

An opinion of some of those against :


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jojo said:


> I know it couldnt be done - well not easily, but its Spains downfall now IMO!!! Its the concrete jungle that gives Spain its not so glamorous reputation as a holiday destination unfortunately
> 
> Jo xxx


Sorry, living up here in the sticks surrounded by farms, forests and mountains, I tend to forget there are parts of Spain that are purely holiday destinations!

Didn't they try and give Benidorm a facelift a while ago? Did it work?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> Sorry, living up here in the sticks surrounded by farms, forests and mountains, I tend to forget there are parts of Spain that are purely holiday destinations!
> 
> Didn't they try and give Benidorm a facelift a while ago? Did it work?


I dont know, I'm out in the campo too!! Altho, I'm about to move to the costa del sol

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Joturke said:


> One thing for sure is that those against this project have over the past years communicated their views and as far as I know from the local press and web reports continue to do so- clearly a hot potato.


Thanks - I'm actually a member of "Salvar El Palmar" on Facebook, I think I got an invite to this rally but didn't go. If it comes to the crunch though, I might get off my butt and go and sit in front of the bulldozers!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Just seen this in the Olive Press, written by one Max Bartle, and I still can't work out whether he is joking?!

Max Bartie - what's all the fuss about at El Palmar beach | Olive Press Newspaper | News Spain
"WHAT on earth is motivating all the fuss about the proposed new hotel and golf course at El Palmar beach?
Arguments for and against the project made the front page of a recent issue of this august journal and even The Sunday Telegraph in NSGB ran half a page covering the story.
In a nutshell, it seems that a handful of rope-sandaled environmentalists want to stop the building of a perfectly legitimate, modestly sized leisure facility on the grounds that it might disturb a bit of sand.
However, as far as I can tell, nothing much else has happened on this stretch of coast since Nelson defeated the combined Spanish and French armadas two hundred and five years ago.
The entire region was blighted by the installation of thousands, of wind turbines
There is an architecturally nondescript lighthouse a few kilometres south of El Palmar at Cabo de Trafalgar which, on the day that I visited, wasn’t working.
This monstrosity can be seen from 20 kilometres away but I don’t recall any objections to planning consent when it was constructed in 1860!
And where were the sandalistas when the entire region to the south of El Palmar was blighted by the installation of hundreds, maybe thousands, of infernal wind turbines?
Such is their density that you couldn’t drive a golf ball more than fifty metres without hitting one.
I am aware of the excellent Montenmedio golf complex at Vejer but the site at El Palmar is just the thing for the creation of a much needed links course in the region.
All that sand would be perfect for the bunkers."


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> Just seen this in the Olive Press, written by one Max Bartle, and I still can't work out whether he is joking?!
> 
> Max Bartie - what's all the fuss about at El Palmar beach | Olive Press Newspaper | News Spain
> "WHAT on earth is motivating all the fuss about the proposed new hotel and golf course at El Palmar beach?
> ...



He doesnt seem to be joking,???!! It seems to me a fair comment from an opposing view to yours and others maybe????

IMO he certainly has a point about wind turbines tho - dreadful things that ruin the countryside!!!

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jojo said:


> He doesnt seem to be joking,???!! It seems to me a fair comment from an opposing view to yours and others maybe????
> 
> IMO he certainly has a point about wind turbines tho - dreadful things that ruin the countryside!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


If he is real, he is one of those people who is perfectly happy for the natural environment to be sacrificed so he can play golf. This stretch of beach is one of the last few unspoilt bits of Spanish coastline; there are dozens of golf courses already if that's what he wants.

You can't see any wind turbines from El Palmar, because it is on the edge of a flat plain and the turbines are miles away on the hills. Many people love them, because they provide clean energy, but I appreciate not everybody feels the same way.

And here's that lighthouse at Trafalgar:


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

More pics of El Palmar and the wild flowers that grow there:


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> You can't see any wind turbines from El Palmar, because it is on the edge of a flat plain and the turbines are miles away on the hills. Many people love them, because they provide clean energy, but I appreciate not everybody feels the same way.


I dont know about the preserving of flowers etc.. I'm not an eco warrior, nor am I into destruction of the environment. But I do dislike wind turbines. I read an article somewhere (I wouldnt be able to find it lol) about how much disturbance and destruction they create when being installed, dug and wired in, the mechanics required underground for them to function and how environmentally unfriendly it is to make them - apparently not worth the relatively small amount of energy they produce????. There has to be a better way - nuclear seems to be coming into vogue with the "greens" strangely enough???!!

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jojo said:


> I dont know about the preserving of flowers etc.. I'm not an eco warrior, nor am I into destruction of the environment. But I do dislike wind turbines. I read an article somewhere (I wouldnt be able to find it lol) about how much disturbance and destruction they create when being installed, dug and wired in, the mechanics required underground for them to function and how environmentally unfriendly it is to make them - apparently not worth the relatively small amount of energy they produce????. There has to be a better way - nuclear seems to be coming into vogue with the "greens" strangely enough???!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Yes, they have a lot of enemies. But the modern ones are very efficient, they now produce 12% of Spain's electricity and one windy day last autumn they generated 20% of the power in Spain's national grid! 

Once they are installed (and it's no more disruptive than building a shopping centre or a golf course - or an oil pipeline come to that) that's it, done. The land around them can be used for agriculture again. No costly fossil fuels to transport, no pollution from power station chimneys, no radioactive waste that we still don't really know how to dispose of.

Do you have any down where you are? Or is there not enough wind?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, they have a lot of enemies. But the modern ones are very efficient, they now produce 12% of Spain's electricity and one windy day last autumn they generated 20% of the power in Spain's national grid!
> 
> Once they are installed (and it's no more disruptive than building a shopping centre or a golf course - or an oil pipeline come to that) that's it, done. The land around them can be used for agriculture again. No costly fossil fuels to transport, no pollution from power station chimneys, no radioactive waste that we still don't really know how to dispose of.
> 
> Do you have any down where you are? Or is there not enough wind?


Not many, we have some up in the hills near El Chorro lakes. We dont have as much wind, we get alot of random strong gusts which arent conducive to wind turbines. 

I just dont see them as the way forward. In fact if the ones they have now are only able to produce 12% of spains electricity, then how many more of the things will they need to erect to do the job properly?? How much in maintenance costs (they are notorious for breaking down) and of course, they're incredibly ugly, invasive and noisy. The ones in the sea are marginally better, but of course putting them in there isnt cheap or without disruption! Just my thoughts! Hopefully they'll come up with a better idea before they put too many more up! Like I said earlier, there is renewed interest in nuclear energy, now they've cleaned it up. Rumour has it they can now re-use the waste (well so "they" reckon) but who knows!!?? 


Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jojo said:


> Not many, we have some up in the hills near El Chorro lakes. We dont have as much wind, we get alot of random strong gusts which arent conducive to wind turbines.
> 
> I just dont see them as the way forward. In fact if the ones they have now are only able to produce 12% of spains electricity, then how many more of the things will they need to erect to do the job properly?? How much in maintenance costs (they are notorious for breaking down) and of course, they're incredibly ugly, invasive and noisy. The ones in the sea are marginally better, but of course putting them in there isnt cheap or without disruption! Just my thoughts! Hopefully they'll come up with a better idea before they put too many more up! Like I said earlier, there is renewed interest in nuclear energy, now they've cleaned it up. Rumour has it they can now re-use the waste (well so "they" reckon) but who knows!!??
> Jo xxx


They are aiming for 20% from renewables by 2020; that includes hydroelectric dams and solar farms as well, though sadly the brakes have been put on those because of the recession. The offshore turbines will go ahead I'm sure, though the fishermen are protesting (aren't they always!) They are even talking about building solar farms in the Sahara and laying cables across the Med.

Spain currently has 8 nuclear power stations producing 20% of its energy, and as far as I know isn't planning to build any more. The waste is currently stored at the plants, none of it is reprocessed.

Where did you get the idea that wind turbines are noisy? They are completely silent - believe me, I walk amongst them frequently! As for being ugly, that's a purely personal opinion. I think they are beautiful, graceful and very hypnotic.

PS just discovered that on that windy day (Nov 2009) the amount produced was *53%*, not 20%!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Those photos Alcalaina posted could be our local beach on the CDS. Not every single kilometre of the CDS is spoilt - most of it is, though.....
The unfinished or finished but empty buildings are a real eyesore, though...as are far too many of the finished but inhabited ones, alas.
Problem is that many of the developers have gone bust so who will pay for demolition and rehabilitating the sites?
I hate those giant 'urbanizaciones' or whatever they're called. Some contain hundreds of apartments and many are architectural monstrosities. How living in one of them can be seen as 'living the Spanish dream' beats me. Noisy, full of transient people, communal pools for a couple of hundred people, screeching kids....yuck
We lasted four months in one when we first arrived here, paid 900 euros a month for the 'privilege'. 
It's clear that there is no system of Planning Committees approving the design, layout and density of proposed developments as in the UK. 
People in the UK moan about local government planning bureaucrats but we should be thankful that we have some means of quality control.
Although the bungaloid spread is ruining many villages all over the UK....

P.S. I don't like those wind turbine thingies - although OH finds them fascinating too - but then I don't find conventional power stations aesthetically pleasing and I do like my hot water, tv, hot dinners etc. so electricity has to be produced by the least offensive and environmentally harmful means.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I hate those giant 'urbanizaciones' or whatever they're called. Some contain hundreds of apartments and many are architectural monstrosities. How living in one of them can be seen as 'living the Spanish dream' beats me. Noisy, full of transient people, communal pools for a couple of hundred people, screeching kids....yuck
> .


Living the nightmare ... not my idea of heaven either. I'd rather have my existing noisy neighbours (cockerels, _burros_ and goats).

And those CDS gated communities!  We have to go to our bank in Sotogrande about once a year, it gives me the creeps. Reminds me of J G Ballard's book Cocaine Nights.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Alcalaina said:


> And those CDS gated communities!  We have to go to our bank in Sotogrande about once a year, it gives me the creeps. Reminds me of J G Ballard's book Cocaine Nights.


Ahem!! I've just moved to Benalmadena, CDS! There is a security gate at each end of my road...... hhhmmmmm!!!!! 

Seriously tho, we lived on the edge of a Spanish village and altho it was lovely, in the end the need to get the kids to school and to live close to "things" made us move. Its not the sort of place that you mean, its actually a lovely private road with some lovely houses and villas, the neighbours are a complete mixture of Spanish, German, Dutch, French and English. We're about 100 metres from the sea, no its not a tourist beach, its a quiet, sandy cove with rocks each side and wasteland of cacti and various spikey plants................ oh and a british supermarket up the road lol!!

Jo xxx


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

" dreadful things that ruin the countryside!!!" So are golf courses !


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## country boy (Mar 10, 2010)

The one natural resource that everyone seems reluctant to harness is Tide Power. Wind comes and goes, rivers dry up or flood, nuclear waste is going to a burden for the rest of this planets existence, but the tide ebbs and flows as regularly as clockwork but nobody seems really interested in it...strange hwell:


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

gus-lopez said:


> " dreadful things that ruin the countryside!!!" So are golf courses !


:clap2::clap2::clap2:


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

country boy said:


> The one natural resource that everyone seems reluctant to harness is Tide Power. Wind comes and goes, rivers dry up or flood, nuclear waste is going to a burden for the rest of this planets existence, but the tide ebbs and flows as regularly as clockwork but nobody seems really interested in it...strange hwell:


I think Iberdrola did something in Cantabria, but on a very small scale. And they've just cancelled the idea of a barrage in the Severn Estuary in the UK, I hear. Shame.

Maybe the fishing lobby is just too strong in Spain?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

jojo said:


> Ahem!! I've just moved to Benalmadena, CDS! There is a security gate at each end of my road...... hhhmmmmm!!!!!
> 
> Seriously tho, we lived on the edge of a Spanish village and altho it was lovely, in the end the need to get the kids to school and to live close to "things" made us move. Its not the sort of place that you mean, its actually a lovely private road with some lovely houses and villas, the neighbours are a complete mixture of Spanish, German, Dutch, French and English. We're about 100 metres from the sea, no its not a tourist beach, its a quiet, sandy cove with rocks each side and wasteland of cacti and various spikey plants................ oh and a british supermarket up the road lol!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Glad to hear you're happy there. We all have different needs and different tastes. Just as well, or we'd all be fighting over the same patch!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

gus-lopez said:


> " dreadful things that ruin the countryside!!!" So are golf courses !


Agree totally! Even though my son and two friends are coming on Friday for a weekend of golf.....
We took Our Little Azor out in the campo this morning, climbed high in the foothills of the Sierra Bermeja to see the view.....and saw the ugliest development you could imagine, slap bang in the middle of trees and hills. I took a photo but don't know how to post it. The horrible white blocks must have contained five hundred or more apartments. It must be an illegal build as I cannot imagine anyone giving permission to build such a monstrosity in a rural location.
If you took some of these blocks and set them down on a local authority estate in Brixton or Sparkbrook the only thing that would render them out of place would be the bright colours. Yet people pay three thousand euros for these 'dream homes in the sun'.
Madness all round.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> . I took a photo but don't know how to post it.


Upload it into an album on your profile page, and then paste the IMG link that appears underneath the photo into your post.

Not sure I want to see it though, it would just make me depressed.


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## Nignoy (Jun 4, 2010)

Its much the same everywhere, especially where there are pristine beaches and friendly locals, sooner or later some ****** comes along and covers it in concrete


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

Nignoy said:


> Its much the same everywhere, especially where there are pristine beaches and friendly locals, sooner or later some ****** comes along and covers it in concrete



Exactly, add some high unemployment rate and a handfull of guys looking for a quick way to get rich into the equation and bang, the place will be full of ugly buildings and cheap hotels before you can shout Naturaleza!

What a shame, really, another stunning place will be lost.


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