# Am I right or Wrong???



## Glassowl (Oct 14, 2015)

Hi folks glass owl back looking for more advice.
For those that don't know where we are up to check my last thread,,this Italy adventure of ours gets more confusing as the months go by . Let me explain my new scenario!
After Finding our property in Molise, advertised as sold furnished with X amount of land a dependance a barn, central heating, gas etc we were over the proverbial moon the price was right the land was useable, all boxes ticked. So after the initial oh my god we have found heaven and you dream of nowt else for the first few days,, reality takes a firm grip and you start to ask your immobiliarre questions, you remember the crack on the plaster in the stair well,, that bit of damp that seemed easily sorted in the euphoria of it all. Well one question we repeatedly asked was, " Is the central heating working".?Eventually after 3 repeat Emails we get told that yes it was the last time the owners used it,, phew maybe a quick service by our local plumber and our heating and hot water supply is sorted .
Alas as with a lot of things we are finding, this wasn't quite true, when we saw the boiler it looked for want of a better description ,, antiquated, but hey i have seen older boilers that still work fine so we let it go trusting that what we had been told was right ,, jumping ahead someways now. We have purchased our house, have the keys drive from the Notary office to check out our new place, it did not take long to realise that our central heating was never going to work as the boiler was totally knackered. 
So our Immobiliare sorted out a plumber for us who confirmed that it was kaput and had been for some time , so its now time for a new boiler. We ask the plumber what kind of system and boiler were going to need bearing in mind its a four bathroom house with eight other rooms all with radiators and we will be having folks stay here. He made an assessment of what was needed and said he would put a boiler in that is capable for our needs. At this point we are also told that the existing above ground 500 litre gas tank which we all thought was empty is illegal now, and anyway does not really hold a sufficient supply. So before our plumber can proceed we need a new underground tank put in so he can get a gas supply to the new boiler. Ok so we then wait a week for a rep from the new gas company to come and see us, we meet him and the plumber and decide between us where the new tank and pipework is going , great all is moving forward.
The plumber has now shown us what kind of boiler we need to run our house and that as soon as the new gas tank is in he can proceed, we agree a price with him through the immobiliarre as he does not speak English, We then get told that all will be completed over the next couple of weeks well it wasn't .
The gas company had been and installed the new tank but the plumber never showed to put the connection and supply pipes in .
By this time we have returned to Italy after 5 weeks in the UK, Still no boiler so after a couple of days asking our agent when the plumber will install the new boiler we wake up one morning to find the plumber starting work. Well in two days we have a boiler in place. But he has not connected to the new tank, he had found that the old tank still had 300 litres of gas inside it and that he will put in a valve so that when it runs out so we can switch off that supply and turn the new one on, only problem is, they are now telling us it will cost extra to make the new connections to the new gas supply, not just that, but the newly installed boiler gives us only luke warm water and just about warm radiators, after being told this boiler could run a hotel it seems, insufficient for purpose or not installed correctly . We have only paid half of the overall costs but now they are demanding full payment for a boiler that does not give hot water or hot radiators if a person is in the shower and another tap goes on the shower goes cold , they want more money to connect to the new gas supply. I asked the agent so how was the plumber going to install the new boiler if the old tank had of been empty as everybody had thought,surely he would have had to connect to a new supply to install his boiler, it falls on deaf ears, I am really annoyed by this, they keep giving us scenarios like if you had a new engine put in a car and it didn't work properly for some other reason not related to the engine you would have to pay extra for this other problem to be fixed ???? AY I really do not understand that one . 
The way I see it is we agreed the installation of a new gas supply to fuel our new boiler that in turn will give us copious amounts of scalding hot water, run our showers all at once if needed when we have guests and give us piping hot radiators if needed in the winter, we don't have this, but they insist we pay as the boiler has been installed whether its correctly fitted or not and that they never agreed to connect to the new supply which like i pointed out earlier,, how could he have installed the boiler if the old gas tank had of been empty as everybody had thought, there would of been no gas to commission said boiler unless he took it from the new supply.
Is there anybody on here can tell us where we stand legally and morally or is this just another case of ,,, this is how it works in Italy ??? Thanks in advance!
seriously frustrated glass owl


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## GeordieBorn (Jul 15, 2016)

Well it’s a great post with lots of detail and I’m sure many a person will read it over the years and learn a lot about buying and living here in Italy. Hopefully (and this is said with the best possible intention) they will think “they were really stupid in those days”. Italy is no different from the UK in this respect and we have all seen the programs with our granny ripped off by unscrupulous morons. Difference here is we don’t understand the language half the time and it makes everything a lot harder. Still I think the dream is worth pursuing and this is someone thinking of calling it a day. How could you let them persuade you to install an LPG boiler (I assume that’s what you have), do you have any idea how much it will cost you to run? Yes, not what you want to hear, but just in case you don’t know. If not, then if you have the capability (space for wood etc.), then I would get a wood burner in now and tell any “guests” it’s the rustic way of living. Seriously it is the best buy we ever made here getting one installed, but we are fit enough to lug wood and did not have to because of having an LPG boiler. We do know people that have had to do that very thing to allow them to visit their holiday home in the months outside of summer (we live here most of the time by the way). I really don’t know where you go from here, but I’ve read an awful lot on another forum from a couple of English guys that know all about heating here in Italy. One of them is still active, has returned to the UK, but is still doing work here in Italy. If I could post a link to his site on here I would, but not too sure I can. I would be tempted to get in touch with him and ask what he could do to recover your situation.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

I can't imagine a new boiler that doesn't allow the temps to be adjusted. This is an instant boiler and not one with a tank right? Didn't you receive a manual for the boiler?

On mine adjusting the temperatures you push either the + or the -

On the other issue. One of the problems with renovations is you never know what you'll find when the work starts. I wouldn't expect to pay until the work is finished but extra because of unforeseen work is the risk .

BTW if you had asked I think most would have told you to not go with propane. A pellet stove would have been cheaper to run. Saved you the hassle of a tank.


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## r3dbar0n (Jul 19, 2016)

Hi,

you are absolutelly right but your "weapons" are quite useless. Unfortunatelly this is typical in Italy, where the cheat is alway behind the corner, probably it happens also in other countries, more or less frequently but (for the moment) I have no direct experiences about that. Any way, morally you are more than right but unfortunatelly moral (at least in Italy, except some rare cases that lukly exists !) doesn't matter at all for many people. Legally, it depends if you have some written agreement where they say you will get a new boiler that meets your specifications and that will be connected to the new tank; if you don't have this, but only a verbal contract, I'm sorry but it useless. But even if you have a detailed written agreement, things are not easier too... you can menance the agency and the plumber that you will proceed by legal way, recurring to a lawyer and sometimes it works as companies and people don't like to start a long legal path (justice, even if for stupid questions, could be extremely slow, and heavily 
bureaucratic). If your bluff would not work, well... you have to evaluate if the cost in term of money and time, necessary for a legal action, balances the additional cost they have charged; you will need a lawyes to do this and it has a cost. Two main association exist in the case you need a legal advice for cases as yours : Codacons and Federconsumatori, you have to subscript paying an annual fee but you will have advise and support; unfortunatelly I don't know extacly the ammount of the annual fee and any other costs.
I suggest you as first thing to check any paper you signed and if it is written in Italian, to ask an Italian friend of your, to translate for you: it could be happen that also he has some problems to deciphrate the text as it could be written in "Legalese" : an Italian way of saying for voluntarry complicated and bureaucratic, most of time written in a very small font ! After that go to agency again and show them what you have signed and that you really understand that ! Menance that you will go to a lawyer, but be strong, they have not to discovery a potentially bluff  If possible bring with you an Italian friend, someone that speaks Italian very well, but the first option is preferable as Italians are used to those situations more and this way their "weapons" are less effective.
I don't want bring bad luck to you but be prepared also for a failure, depending on your "cards" and your steadiness...by the way I am sure you will find easily a peaceful solution 
You ask if this is the way it works in Italy : I have to say.... yes.... most of time expecially for you that don't have a clean knowledge of the language and above all if you don't follow the golden rule : trust no one ! Always ask for written and detailed agreements, negotiate the price most as possible, and pay only when you see what you asked. Obviously without become a compete paranoid  By the way, Italy is not a dangerous place at all, small or big cheats are possible by greedy people but paying attention to detail they can be more or less avoided; greedy, oportunistic and let me say...stupid people exist but also honest and friendly.
I wish you a rapid solution to your problem and to enjoy your life in this "crazy" but beautiful country, meantime I continue to try to move to UK and crossfinger for me... :fingerscrossed: a couple of possibilities are just beyond the horizon !

Bye

The RedBaron


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## GeordieBorn (Jul 15, 2016)

r3dbar0n said:


> Hi,
> 
> you are absolutelly right but your "weapons" are quite useless. Unfortunatelly this is typical in Italy, where the cheat is alway behind the corner, probably it happens also in other countries, more or less frequently but (for the moment) I have no direct experiences about that. Any way, morally you are more than right but unfortunatelly moral (at least in Italy, except some rare cases that lukly exists !) doesn't matter at all for many people. Legally, it depends if you have some written agreement where they say you will get a new boiler that meets your specifications and that will be connected to the new tank; if you don't have this, but only a verbal contract, I'm sorry but it useless. But even if you have a detailed written agreement, things are not easier too... you can menance the agency and the plumber that you will proceed by legal way, recurring to a lawyer and sometimes it works as companies and people don't like to start a long legal path (justice, even if for stupid questions, could be extremely slow, and heavily
> bureaucratic). If your bluff would not work, well... you have to evaluate if the cost in term of money and time, necessary for a legal action, balances the additional cost they have charged; you will need a lawyes to do this and it has a cost. Two main association exist in the case you need a legal advice for cases as yours : Codacons and Federconsumatori, you have to subscript paying an annual fee but you will have advise and support; unfortunatelly I don't know extacly the ammount of the annual fee and any other costs.
> ...


Good luck in your UK venture RedBaron, but beware there are many a cowboy (bad) company in the UK as well!


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## Glassowl (Oct 14, 2015)

Hi Folks thank you for all your replies. So sorry I did not answer earlier but have been in Molise since posting the thread, back in UK for a couple of weeks so would like to inform you all about the Boiler success Story.
After writing my thread we went over to Molise and met with the Boss of the estate agents who we had the wrangle with, the plumber that they had recommended and a rep from the boiler company , whom is now my bezzie mate ,, he basically took a look at how the installation had been installed went nuts with the plumber , replaced a couple of microswitches told the plumber what he had done wrong and needs to put right ,, the owner of the estate agency then turned on the plumber, and then us, but in the most apologetic manner> within a week of this happening we had a solar efficient boiler, hot water and heating and all gas tanks connected for no extra cost,, in fact the estate agency owner took us out hunting truffles last week by way of apology. Faith is now restored I love Molise again ,but now have another matter that information from all of you oracles out there will be humbly received once again . checkout my latest thread please, and thanks to all whom replied


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## accbgb (Sep 23, 2009)

Just as an aside, it seems to me that I have read in the past that you cannot be held to a contract under Italian law unless it has been professionally translated into your native language and certified as such prior to signing.


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## KenzoXIV (Nov 13, 2013)

Glassowl said:


> Hi Folks thank you for all your replies. So sorry I did not answer earlier but have been in Molise since posting the thread, back in UK for a couple of weeks so would like to inform you all about the Boiler success Story.
> After writing my thread we went over to Molise and met with the Boss of the estate agents who we had the wrangle with, the plumber that they had recommended and a rep from the boiler company , whom is now my bezzie mate ,, he basically took a look at how the installation had been installed went nuts with the plumber , replaced a couple of microswitches told the plumber what he had done wrong and needs to put right ,, the owner of the estate agency then turned on the plumber, and then us, but in the most apologetic manner> within a week of this happening we had a solar efficient boiler, hot water and heating and all gas tanks connected for no extra cost,, in fact the estate agency owner took us out hunting truffles last week by way of apology. Faith is now restored I love Molise again ,but now have another matter that information from all of you oracles out there will be humbly received once again . checkout my latest thread please, and thanks to all whom replied


Wow I was already to post the usual.... "Yes this really is how Italy works" and "You have to be very careful when dealing with anyone" but it seems you have had a cracking result there! (of course in Italy a cracking result would be what you had originally expected!)

Still in any case I hope things are now moving forward for you.. I am still renting down in Sicily but would like to buy something with some nice land (Flat) and a nice building to renovate... would be lying if I didnt say I was very very nervous about it!

Italy in one emoticon.... :fencing:


Regards

Kenzo


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