# Compulsory Reading?



## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Perhaps this should be compulsory reading for people who are thinking that Spain is the land of Milk and Honey. 

This was sent to me yesterday by a friend of a friend. First she sent me an email asking me to visit her new blog. It just shows what a complete mess people can get into. 

I just wonder how many other people are in the same or worse predicaments who do not 

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Thank you for visiting this blog. I created it especially to help me in this very difficult time.

The background is this - I am here in foreign country without family around me. Everything was not too bad until now. I have no income, ie no job or state subsidized financial help, maintenance or indeed any other income from whatever source you care to mention. Zero, nada, nothing.

You might say “Go and get a job/work” I have and more then once I have not been paid. Now with the world crisis upon us it’s even worse.

Work - there isn’t any here. There are lots of people chasing what very little there is and for extremely low pay (if the employers even pay you!) and dreadful working conditions. I have lost count of the amount of money outstanding to me for work done - and this is by different employers! It has not just happened once but continues to - it’s very much part of the ethos here.

And guess what - I have become very depressed by it all and cannot be bright and shiny and energetic to one more employer when I know that trying to get the money out of them at the end of the month will not only be terribly difficult but probably simply impossible.

Sorry if this sounds so depressing, I just wanted to explain a little to you.

Therefore, it you can find it in your hearts to make a donation, however small, I would be extremely grateful. I will pray for you and yours so that you hopefully will never find yourself in a similar situation.

I realise that donations are not the answer to my financial status but I do hope they will help me until I can see a light at the end of the tunnel.

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You can see that this is well-written by an intelligent lady who I know speaks excellent Spanish (by expat standards) BUT it is not good enough to work 24/7 in a Spanish environment. "Getting by" does not cut it with employers who have 3,000,000 unemployed to choose from.

I was able to give her a couple of days work this weekend but unless I "invent" work I have nothing next week and probably nothing the week after. 

She has had half a dozen emails of support (all along the "We are all in the same boat") and one piece of hate mail but she was encouraged that people recognised that she is not to blame. She does not drink or smoke and as she says there is no meat on the bone. Her house is now in negative equity and IAC, 50% of her expat urbanisation is up for sale. 

Makes you think, doesn't it?


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

Telling people like her we are all in the same boat is not only unhelpful but is a pointless cliche. I watched a very depressing program the other night about people facing eviction following repossession. In spite of the UK Government telling us that they will put pressure on mortgage providers to only seek repossession as a last resort, it seems that estimates of around 75,000 repossessions during 2009 mey be way out and perhaps 500,000 might be a more accurate prediction. I sold my house 3 years ago, partly because I had an uncomfortable (polite way of wording it) feeling that the housing bubble was not going to have the well advertised soft landing and partly because we plan (still) to move to Spain. My OHs parents live in Andalucia and my parents are seriously considering moving too. I know many on this forum would probably have advised me not to sell up but we had too many good reasons to do so and don't regret it for a second. That house is now worth £80K less than I sold it for. We may be moving this year although our main plan, that is Plan A not the fallback of Plan C (we never liked B) has us moving over in October 2010. Recent events, such as my current contract not being renewed (expected though still unwelcome) are giving increased credibility to Plan C so you poor hapless expats in Malaga province prepare to duck and cover. (For the sceptics among you, we are NOT going to be looking for work, we will be self employed and we also have a regular income regardless of the work situation - so although it won't be all sugar and honey, we won't be as badly off as the poor lady above.)
The work situation here in UK is about as bad as I have ever known it and will undoubtedly get a lot worse, but as I am always the optimist things will recover and my guess is that it will start to pick up here mid 2010 but sadly not in Spain until maybe 2012. That said, we await the grateful departure of G W and welcome the arrival of that well known terrorist (assuming you are a ******* in the good ole US of A) Barrack Obama bin winnin elections dude, and who knows, perhaps he will repair the world-wide damage to the global economy that GW's era had a great deal to do with.
My longest post yet....


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

.....and very valid but sadly penned on the day that Spain posted the worst unemployment figures since records began at over 3,000,000, that Industrial Production dropped an ENORMOUS 17,2% and Málaga confirmed that house sales were down 62% and new house building was down 53% year on year.

(Car sales down from 6,200 to 1,530 for Málaga in the months Dec 2007 and Dec 2008 had already done nothing to improve our humours this week)


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

As I said, it's going to get worse yet before there will be any sign of a recovery. But one thing is certain, there have been recessions and depressions before (although I suspect this one might be the worst of them all) but as Chance the Gardener said in that excellent film Being There, first there is Spring, then the Summer, then there will be Autumn and then Winter. After that we'll have Spring again. What goes around etc. There will be a recovery!!


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## SunnySpain (Jul 30, 2008)

thrax said:


> As I said, it's going to get worse yet before there will be any sign of a recovery. But one thing is certain, there have been recessions and depressions before (although I suspect this one might be the worst of them all) but as Chance the Gardener said in that excellent film Being There, first there is Spring, then the Summer, then there will be Autumn and then Winter. After that we'll have Spring again. What goes around etc. There will be a recovery!!



A agree with Thrax.

Whilst many wanna be expats are simply dreaming about a life in the sun without thinking about the practicalities with regards to finances (essentially), there are also many others that will become expats for real and succeed.

Thus, I feel a little less criticism and doom and gloom is in order.

The Spanish economy may well be in a terrible state, but from what I have read on this forum recently, I doubt many of the senior expats will be returning to the UK anytime soon. So how about a little positivity, por favor.


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

I think that what is required is NOT positive nor negative but realistic comment .....FACTS! 

The reality is this is the worst I remember in 18 years and yet every day we hear of people coming with children but with no job, no knowledge of Spanish, no piggy bank and, bluntly, no hope. I have friends in banks, currency exchanges and removal companies and the reality is that more are going back than coming in. 

The good news is that it is the life cycle and in x months/years Spain will have bounced back. 
Why? The Brits have had a love affair with the country for 40 years, it is close, the N.Europeans have a basic understanding of the culture and there is an "at home but different" sexiness about the country. It is also relatively "inexpensive". Today I was offered a very interesting position in Oslo but the excellent money looked less exciting when the apartment would have taken 1800 nett out of the deal and I'd pay more in taxes in one month than I pay here in one year. If I needed a haircut I'd pay 10 euros here and 35 there. My staple diet of Pizza 4 Cheeses could be a wallet-sucking 20 euros without a 4 euro water and 3 euro coffee etc. 

That said, for the first time in 18 years I am advising people who have anything to lose NOT to come yet. As the Swedes say, "Borta bra, hemma bäst" (Away is good, home is best) Spain IS home to me.......I would not have it any other way,


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

One problem here has been the "encouragement of subcontrcating" and it's unusual payment terms. 

On Madrid TV - A group of folk owed money by one of Spains HUGE building contractors is on HUNGER strike at their front door. Main subcontractor is owed 500,000Euros. Of this he owes 250,000 to one supplier of materials - These have also joined the hunger strike - Employees unpaid for 4 months are backing their boss.

The large main contractor has filed for bankruptcy - The commission game in Spain is rife. I once followed the sales channel from factory in the EU to customer - was 50% longer here and 30% more expensive for the customer. So I did a deal with the factory. I could go on - but it would only serve to get me riled up.


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## EP GAZZ (Aug 26, 2008)

Sad thing is I can repeat the same story over here plenty of ex pats being released here and if on H1B unlike in Spain they have to leave the day or so their notice period ends.


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

wrote some stuff - then deleted it


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## grahunt (Jan 22, 2009)

Some of my clients have got themselves into serious trouble recently. But there are solutions to most of them. There are extremes and some may not survive this but I used to live in Asturias with 22% unemployment in the early 90's so remember the last time too. Things only seem worse now imho because we hear so much about it. Rolling news programmes constantly telling us the same news drums it into your subconscious. I have a friend who never reads the news not even looking at the papers as he passes the kiosk. Guess what his business, in IT content supplying has just had its best year ever. If he can avoid getting brought down when he spends all day on the PC then anyone can.


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

It's just a matter of timing, the wife and I are just about recession proof because we have little debt, some savings and investments and pensions that we have put together over the years.

The daft thing about the UK is that if you have income the cost of living is far less during this recession than it was before it. I was talking to a guy the other day who has a £300K BOEBR + 0.99% tracker mortgage, he is now paying 2.99% interest. Food and fuel costs have come down and if you want to buy a property, a car, furniture etc it's a buyers market.

Anyone hoping to make a go of it in Spain without a financial cushion is dreaming. If you have brilliant qualifications and speak fluent Spanish there are still plenty of Spaniards at the front of the employment queue. I recon that other than for the exchange rate the wife and I could live a similar life in Spain to the one we live in the UK. We don't frequent pubs or restaurants on a regular basis and appear to need less money the older we get.

I don't wish to appear uncaring but if someone lands in Spain without finance, without a job, without a viable business plan and expects everything to work out for them they are in for a nasty surprise. But having said that, if they can scrape together the cost of the airfare back home they can dust themselves down and put it down to experience.


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## tigersharkjs (Sep 19, 2008)

I really hope that "looking for work in the Malaga area" reads this!!


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

grahunt said:


> Some of my clients have got themselves into serious trouble recently. But there are solutions to most of them. There are extremes and some may not survive this but I used to live in Asturias with 22% unemployment in the early 90's so remember the last time too. Things only seem worse now imho because we hear so much about it. Rolling news programmes constantly telling us the same news drums it into your subconscious. I have a friend who never reads the news not even looking at the papers as he passes the kiosk. Guess what his business, in IT content supplying has just had its best year ever. If he can avoid getting brought down when he spends all day on the PC then anyone can.



I was watching SKY this morning and I am convinced that we are being talked into making this recession even worse. Everywhere you look on SKY ... they even seem to be reporting it gleefully. All the experts predicting how much worse it is going to get ..... no wonder people have no confidence .... same here in Spain I'm sure


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

tigersharkjs said:


> I really hope that "looking for work in the Malaga area" reads this!!



I agree, but I think I was once one of those people. I can remember when we were planning our move to Spain being one of those people who ignored what everyone was telling me - I was gonna do it anyway. I'd be alright, I knew best - what do people on forums know, they dont know how bad it is here and they're not me, how can they know blah, blah.... FORTUNATELY my OH is a cautious and sensible person and he put the brakes on and told me that we were going to make this move properly or not at all - we argued and fought about it, I was sure it would be alright once we got here. anyway, we kinda compromised and made our plans involving him commuting, not selling our UK house, slowly looking for work and business opportunities in Spain etc... and that was before the credit crunch

I am so relieved I listened to him, we would be sunk without trace if we'd done what I'd wanted to do - its nothing like I thought it would be here, its been really hard and we're struggling. Yes, the weather is nice in the summer, yes its more relaxed out here and the views are great, but what good is all that without money or any form of life line?? Luckily, we're managing and we havent lost anything, but no thanks to me and my bright ideas. 

I guess thats why I get so worried about people who come on here with my old attitude of "it'll be alright" cos I KNOW they will struggle, I dont want them to burn their bridges

Jo


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Stravinsky said:


> I was watching SKY this morning and I am convinced that we are being talked into making this recession even worse. Everywhere you look on SKY ... they even seem to be reporting it gleefully. All the experts predicting how much worse it is going to get ..... no wonder people have no confidence .... same here in Spain I'm sure



i so agree, its like Crookesy says, for a lot of people in the UK they're actually financially better off - we would be if it werent for the exchange rate. But the good old media keep banging on about how bad things are and it depresses everyone and makes it happen

jo


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## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

I agree with jojo, you wonder sometimes what hidden agenda the media is playing to. Yes things are very tight, yes the immediate future does not look too buoyant, but continually hauling out these "experts"on to the TV to reinforce what is a negative message, does nobody any good.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Zimtony said:


> you wonder sometimes what hidden agenda the media is playing to.



I'm sure there's a hidden agenda - but what can it be??? Cos I'm sure with a bit of optimsm, the media could have certainly cheered people up and encouraged them to spend more and help the economy, so why havent they??

Jo


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## tigersharkjs (Sep 19, 2008)

Although one occasionally veers towards panic.... there have been LOWS before..I remember 1983 being fairly desperate times..bad real estate market etc. According to my realtor, if you really look at stats, the market was unrealistically inflated, and now it is just correcting itself. Greedy banks, etc just over extended themselves making large loans to unqualified people, credit companies seem to encourage people to spend money like drunken sailors..and this is the result, but it probably really is NOT the end of the world


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

This is very sad but perhaps compulsory reading too


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> .. same here in Spain I'm sure


Except unemployment in Spain is almost twice in numbers that of the UK and with less population.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

I agree with Jojo. Whilst I doubt there is a hidden agenda (that would make the media sound intelligent) they could certainly do better to concentrate on the good news stories that are certainly out there. There seems to be a myth in the press that the only good news is bad news. I think I read somewhere that the Spanish economy is the worst in europe (is that true?) but lets not forget that the UK's unemployment figure of nearly 2 million is also nowhere near the true figure because of years of government manipulation of figures to make them look better.


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## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

Spain and Eire are supposedly the worst hit currently. 

The Spanish figures are JUST as off - The Autonomos who are not "earning" are not included - and Spain has LOTS of them - as they've been promoting self employment as a solution to reduce the dole queues for the last 5-6 years at least.

What's worrying is that many analysts estimate that Spain will take LONGER to recover than many too. This I'm rather unsure of - as the Spanish in general are rather resilient. But.....

I spent a hour chatting with my local bank today - just nattering. 

WOW! is all I can really say. I know this wont surprise Crooksey - but it's really VERY worrying how many of the small savings banks (many in EX-PAT loved areas) are in serious trouble. 

The sector foresees one or two of the smaller ones being merged and nationalised (no names - sorry). Generally because they've been too ambitious. He reckoned that these smaller ones will repossess, for example, fastest - simply because they cannot cover the loss any other way. What is a concern is that there is no real idea how this would be managed as it goes against the philosophy of decentralised management - which is how Spain often operates.

There are also state backed loans being made available to tide business folk over - VERY FEW have been taken up (here anyway) as they seriously believe they'll not be up again in 3 years to pay them off again.


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

chris(madrid) said:


> Except unemployment in Spain is almost twice in numbers that of the UK and with less population.


Do you know the difference between a recession and a depression? I'll tell you, a recession is when the guy next door loses his job, a depression is when you lose your job.

It's similar to the 'Phoney War' of 1939 over here, in that we can't particulally see much damage, there are no reports of soup kitchens or folk dying in shop doorways. We don't trust any financial institutions anymore, Standard Life have taken an eternity to admit that the fund managers of their flagship Sterling ultra safety fund shouldn't have lost £105million by investing in sub prime buy to let debt, you couldn't make it up could you? Our banks are now complete laughing stocks as is our govenment.

Folk won't fall for the old MFI 'Pay us in advance and trust us to deliver' practice, so more under capitalised retailers will go to the wall. What I am attemping to say is watch this space, we haven't seen the half of it yet.

Our true unemployment statistics are difficult to figure out, what with all the spurious schemes that have been set up to massage them, but 12% of all folk of working age (48,800,000) is probably close.


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## Buenosdiaspet (Feb 13, 2009)

I find the positive entrepreneurial spirit of my new fellow expats (been in Spain about 6 weeks ago) a refreshing change from the moaning I have left behind me. Of course that might be reflecting my mindset and need to make the change, but it does feel like here people work hard and get stuck in and don't expect any safety net etc. It's very very hard to hear about so many people getting in financial trouble and having to bail out fast, recession/depression is a very cruel thing. But it WILL turn around, and those that survive it will the most flexible, hardworking and realistic in any given market. Sadly, we'll all be scarred by it one way or another, but one day it will end...

Maya


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## chrisnation (Mar 2, 2009)

grahunt said:


> Some of my clients have got themselves into serious trouble recently. But there are solutions to most of them. There are extremes and some may not survive this but I used to live in Asturias with 22% unemployment in the early 90's so remember the last time too. Things only seem worse now imho because we hear so much about it. Rolling news programmes constantly telling us the same news drums it into your subconscious. I have a friend who never reads the news not even looking at the papers as he passes the kiosk. Guess what his business, in IT content supplying has just had its best year ever. If he can avoid getting brought down when he spends all day on the PC then anyone can.


Totally agree with Graham. I remember the moment when I twigged that the 'news' is just another strand of the entertainment biz, as far as TV, radio and print is concerned. I have not taken a daily or w/e paper, listened to radio news, watched TV news for about 3 years now. I feel all the better for it. I scan the headlines on BBCi and if a story looks interesting, I might read it. 

I do recommend to everyone to stop sitting helplessly while stuff is rammed into their psyches. Just what can you do with the news that a bus has rolled into a ravine in Punjab and 67 people have died? Or that 3000 people have been laid of from SteelWorks Inc, Philadelphia? Nothing. It just serves to inject another dose of anxiety into your system, about things which have no connection to you and about which you can do nothing - except be vaguely, disconcertingly worried.

Put it this way: most news is not 'news'. It is distressing events, most of which are entirely irrelevant and positively unhelpful.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

chrisnation said:


> Totally agree with Graham. I remember the moment when I twigged that the 'news' is just another strand of the entertainment biz, as far as TV, radio and print is concerned. I have not taken a daily or w/e paper, listened to radio news, watched TV news for about 3 years now. I feel all the better for it. I scan the headlines on BBCi and if a story looks interesting, I might read it.
> 
> I do recommend to everyone to stop sitting helplessly while stuff is rammed into their psyches. Just what can you do with the news that a bus has rolled into a ravine in Punjab and 67 people have died? Or that 3000 people have been laid of from SteelWorks Inc, Philadelphia? Nothing. It just serves to inject another dose of anxiety into your system, about things which have no connection to you and about which you can do nothing - except be vaguely, disconcertingly worried.
> 
> Put it this way: most news is not 'news'. It is distressing events, most of which are entirely irrelevant and positively unhelpful.


Exactly my thoughts. Well said!!!!!


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## crookesey (May 22, 2008)

So the answer appears to be to print billions of pounds worth of currency and swap it for government backed securites, corporate bonds etc. Far be it for me to question the logic in this, but as bonds are easily saleable if companies wanted to divest themselves of them, what does the government actually hope to achieve? 

We thought that we might just have a look at a couple of 'front line sea view' apartments between La Cala and Cabopino when we come over next month but there appears to be nothing for sale beach side of the coast road. This tells me that good property is not coming onto the market, it's just the crap positioned stuff that's being heavilly discounted, and still not selling.

What's the tourist exchange rate at the moment? We got 1.1550 guaranteed by pre booking, it's 1.08 at Marks & Sparks who usually have the best rates so 7.50 cents to the pound more looks like a good deal.


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

If you want property in that area I have contacts but I agree it's the old story...location, location, location.

Very pleasant lunch in Calahonda today - in the sun and with good company. Reminds me why I love Spain.


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