# Spain VS Italy



## niceguyjohn

do you think it is cheaper to live (retired) in Spain or italy? Lets assume equal areas in each country, renting an apartment, in small town close 10 to 20 KMs to a mid sise city. buying and owning a used car, ect. I would be curious to know your various opinions. I have lived in Italy for 2 years albit it was 8 years ago now. I was in the Pisa area and loved it very much. Now live in Canada and am thinking to retire in either Ialy or Spain.


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## charlee

IMO 
I would defo say Spain !


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## tonyinspain

I would go to the place your more comfortable with come over and visit some areas before you decide then make your decision
Good luck
Ps my sister lives in medicinehat and she would never go back to the uk she loves Canada


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## Leper

You loved Pisa and its environs - Why change a winning combination? - Pisa is your winning choice, although you dont seem to know it. Go for it. If things go pear-shape there is always Spain which in itself is going pear-shape, but I love the place.


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## RichTUK

TBH, I am only 26, 27 in April, but the cheapest place to live is the place your are happiest living. Yes both contries can be cheap, and both cam be very $$$$ but the happier you are the less you will worry about having to spend money... so really it's up to what you guys and gals like doing.


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## NickZ

It's not simple math. Cheaper depends on what you spend your money on.


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## baldilocks

niceguyjohn said:


> do you think it is cheaper to live (retired) in Spain or italy? Lets assume equal areas in each country, renting an apartment, in small town close 10 to 20 KMs to a mid sise city. buying and owning a used car, ect. I would be curious to know your various opinions. I have lived in Italy for 2 years albit it was 8 years ago now. I was in the Pisa area and loved it very much. Now live in Canada and am thinking to retire in either Ialy or Spain.


We, self, wife mother-in-law manage very well on about €500 per month (no mortgage nor rent) to give you some idea.


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## niceguyjohn

baldilocks said:


> We, self, wife mother-in-law manage very well on about €500 per month (no mortgage nor rent) to give you some idea.


thank you very much for your reply. When you say without rent do you still include utility costs??? Gas, Electricity, Water etc.??


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## tonyinspain

I have a farm and also rent a two bed apartment 
Rent 350
Elect 80+
water 20
Car depends 50 a week
Tax 48
Ins 360 a year
Food me and my young un 50 per week
Dinner money for young un 7.50
Burger king as a treat 20 

Hope this helps but its really how much you can afford and your circumstances good luck


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## baldilocks

niceguyjohn said:


> thank you very much for your reply. When you say without rent do you still include utility costs??? Gas, Electricity, Water etc.??


Yes but not such things as IBI and local taxes (rates) which taken over the whole year amount to about €250 in total. Sewage and refuse collection are included in local taxes.

We tend to live quite economically and only eat out rarely, such as if we happen to be out over lunchtime, in which case, a good menu del día (3 courses and a drink) costs about €7 - €8 each, we don't inhabit bars and every few weeks we splash out on Chicken and chips, from the asador, which for three of us costs €12,70 with a wing quarter left over to provide for a curry or dinosaur pie later in the week. We use the slow cooker once a week to provide a really tasty all-in-one meal (e.g. hotpot, stew, etc) from inexpensive cuts of meat that benefit from long slow cooking (7-8 hours) starting from 4 or 5 in the morning. (we use a timeswitch!). 

We do get quite a lot of fresh fruit and veg from neighbours who have a surplus but we return the compliment by cooking them cakes, etc because our gas oven has a thermostat and most Spanish ovens are either on or off.


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## tonyinspain

baldilocks said:


> Yes but not such things as IBI and local taxes (rates) which taken over the whole year amount to about 250 in total. Sewage and refuse collection are included in local taxes.
> 
> We tend to live quite economically and only eat out rarely, such as if we happen to be out over lunchtime, in which case, a good menu del día (3 courses and a drink) costs about 7 - 8 each, we don't inhabit bars and every few weeks we splash out on Chicken and chips, from the asador, which for three of us costs 12,70 with a wing quarter left over to provide for a curry or dinosaur pie later in the week. We use the slow cooker once a week to provide a really tasty all-in-one meal (e.g. hotpot, stew, etc) from inexpensive cuts of meat that benefit from long slow cooking (7-8 hours) starting from 4 or 5 in the morning. (we use a timeswitch!).
> 
> We do get quite a lot of fresh fruit and veg from neighbours who have a surplus but we return the compliment by cooking them cakes, etc because our gas oven has a thermostat and most Spanish ovens are either on or off.


Wow your making my mouth water yum yum 
Home made cakes stop it please
My wife brings me cadburys dairy milk choc and extra strong mints when she returns from work god i wish i could cook ;()


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## Pesky Wesky

tonyinspain said:


> Wow your making my mouth water yum yum
> Home made cakes stop it please
> My wife brings me cadburys dairy milk choc and extra strong mints when she returns from work god i wish i could cook ;()


You can!
Just get a recipe book or watch a youtube video


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## tonyinspain

Pesky Wesky said:


> You can!
> Just get a recipe book or watch a youtube video


I have quite a few cook books but to be honest the food doesnt look anything like the pictures
So egg and chips tonight then


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## tonyinspain

Looks like your minds made up if it feels right go for it why not 
You seem to have a good grasp of the market so yes go for it 
Good luck


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## anderso

I spent about a year in Italy (Bologna and Venice) and have now lived in Valencia for almost a year. I would say that price levels are generally compatible, with Spain being slightly cheaper especially if you stay away from the three biggest cities (including Valencia). E.g. Granada, altough pretty big, seems a little cheaper than here ...


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## samthemainman

I too have lived in Bologna (year abroad at uni) and although it was Lire then rather than Euro then, but I've been back lots and its about the same.

I love Italy too and although I'm nowhere near retiring yet, I'd love a place in Sicily (in the expensive Taormina area or maybe somewhere near Agrigento) for summer etc. 

I think life in Spain is ever so slightly easier for the expat, there is slightly less bureaucracy (yes really) and if you're not a Spanish speaker it's probably easier to get by. There's more of a sense of 'space' in Spain (car parking spaces aside!) but for me Italy wins on charm and on food by a mile. I love Spanish food - but compared to Italy, it's not quite up there (although northern Spain and Basque Country come close)- but the markets in Spain are excellent. I just find standard Italian fare better and fresher and less cholesterol/saturated fat based - although Bologna comes close in the meat fest battle!

As a foodie I appreciate the Italian obsession with ingredients. It's a generalisation but usually the Spanish are less fussy... Being vegetarian in Italy is a cinch - in Spain it's still like in France - almost taboo!!

Choose the right region in Spain though and you can get a better year round climate though...

Sorry I've gone off topic as your questions were finance based - but for me I wouldn't choose based on the cost.


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## anderso

I couldn't agree more (and I studied at Bologna uni too) ...

I am personally quite disappointed with the general food standard in Spain. You can get really good produce, the markets are great and there are also very nice restaurants to be found. But you have to look for them!

The standard street fare is high on junk and fat and low on quality. In Italy, most places you bump into will serve you a decent to very good pasta/pizza etc. - here it is much harder. When our little girl goes to birthday parties at the "infantil" centres, they are served coca-cola, plastic bread with nutella and cakes straight out of the plastic wrapping. It's just not on.

But anyway. I love a lot of other things about Spain. I find the mentality much more "modern" and much more open than that of Italy - the Spanish are more "European". And yes, bureaucracy is actually not as bad as Italy (!).

Back to economics: There is always the good ol' Bic Mac index indicating that the price of a Big Mac in Rome is 5,22 - in Madrid it's 4,75. That sums it up pretty good, I think. 

Interactive currency-comparison tool: The Big Mac index | The Economist


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## Spanish inheritance tax

Go where you like it best !


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## titania

zenkarma said:


> This is so helpful, I've found all your posts on here so far to be really helpful, informative and properly thought through.
> 
> I'm seriously considering selling up my house in the UK,.................and living off the interest at say 3% per annum ............................. and living in the one bed flat I have in Almeria, mortgage paid. ........................
> 
> Even allowing for the increase in usage costs, from what you've said here, it should easily be doable without eating into the capital.
> 
> I just can't make my mind up whether to take this huge step or not!


Zenkarma, I wasn't aware one could still get 3% interest in UK. That would be gross, yes? How much tax would there be on that, 20% unless it's below the personal allowance?

Also, what's the climate like in Almeria. It's the only place I didn't have time to visit last summer. I'm told it's warmer than the Costa del Sol, could you confirm this?

Many thanks.


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## zenkarma

titania said:


> Zenkarma, I wasn't aware one could still get 3% interest in UK. That would be gross, yes? How much tax would there be on that, 20% unless it's below the personal allowance?


It's actually lowered now, it's not possible to get 3% any more, the last time I looked the best you'd get is 2.5%. Which is bringing the whole thing into question, I'm just not sure if it's viable anymore. 

The total amount at 2.5% would probably come in at just under the personal allowance threshold so no tax would be payable and it would be net. Or it could simply all be moved offshore which would ensure a net amount.

There's still the option of simply renting rather than selling up, but I'm just not sure if I want all the hassle that renting involves, particularly being out of the country.

That would still leave me with the problem of the Spanish taxes though, their allowances aren't as generous as the UK ones.

The more I'm looking into the Spanish tax system and their recent declaration laws and taxation on worldwide assets and harsh penalties for non-conformity the less I'm liking it to be honest.

I'm beginning to wonder whether it may be better to only spend some time at the Spanish flat (less than 183 days) and some time somewhere else to escape the Spanish fiscal net! Or perhaps even sell it up and think about somewhere else. Spain is looking less and less like a viable country to retire to.



titania said:


> Also, what's the climate like in Almeria. It's the only place I didn't have time to visit last summer. I'm told it's warmer than the Costa del Sol, could you confirm this?.


Almeria Province has the highest sunshine hour rate out of the whole of Europe as I understand it. And I'd say it is most definitely one of the warmest parts of Spain, particularly so in Summer where temperatures can easily average mid 90's.


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## titania

zenkarma said:


> ...The total amount at 2.5% would probably come in at just under the personal allowance threshold so no tax would be payable and it would be net. Or it could simply all be moved offshore which would ensure a net amount...


Thanks for your reply Zenkarma. If you move funds offshore but need to use the interest to live on, that means you would bring the interest onshore, and therefore that would also be liable to tax, so you'd need to check what is the personal allowance in the country where you repatriate the money.

On the question of Italy, whoever was asking. I live in France but not too far from Northern Italy which I know quite well. I think Italy is about as expensive as France in terms of daily expenses (I don't know about renting or buying property). Which in turn means it is more expensive in Italy than in Spain, since Spain is cheaper than France. Even if the food may be OK in Italy, I have found that my digestive system works better in Spain and I like it better there, go figure....

For other readers, be aware that France is going the same way as Spain as far as taxes are concerned. In fact, even though I would hope to retire in Spain or Portugal next year, I have wondered whether I shouldn't go back to UK to establish residence there and pay my taxes there, rather than France/Spain/Portugal, as with a foreign pension, it may turn out cheaper in taxes in the UK... Once my house is sold, I'll need to get a savvy accountant to calculate and then decide on the way to do things.


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## zenkarma

titania said:


> Thanks for your reply Zenkarma. If you move funds offshore but need to use the interest to live on, that means you would bring the interest onshore, and therefore that would also be liable to tax, so you'd need to check what is the personal allowance in the country where you repatriate the money.


Well that's exactly the problem. 

Moving it offshore simply moves it out of reach of the money grabbing UK Inland Revenue who would be perfectly happy to tax it at source and then make me fill in forms and tax returns to get it back.

The point at which it would be moved onshore would be in Spain and I haven't yet figured out exactly how much tax that would be subject to as the Spanish tax rules are complicated. On the one hand you get about €5k personal allowance (lower than in the UK) but are only allowed to make €1500 in interest or investment income tax free. Is that included in the personal allowance or in addition to the personal allowance?

I must confess, I'm rapidly going off the idea of becoming a tax resident in Spain and am thinking more now of simply spending less than 183 days a year there and the rest of the time somewhere else.


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## GUAPACHICA

tonyinspain said:


> Wow your making my mouth water yum yum
> Home made cakes stop it please
> My wife brings me cadburys dairy milk choc and extra strong mints when she returns from work god i wish i could cook ;()


Hey, Tonyinspain - so, what's stopping you? 

My dad used to claim that the ability to cook, in order to feed yourself, was a 'survival skill' which everyone should be required to learn (so, *are you listening, UK Govt. Education Minister*…?).

BTW - that interest in cooking took my father all the way from being a teenaged RN sailor and raw recruit, to his final Naval role, some 34 years later, as Head of the RN Cookery School, in Chatham Naval Base, Kent - prior to both his and that base's retirement! So, I grew up thinking that men did the cooking, whilst their wives did the washing up! My mother never did become proficient at baking, whilst my father's first Commissioning cake, made for the launch of the first 'HMS Hermes' Aircraft Carrier was the most perfectly iced cake I'd seen in my life, LOL! 

So, you, too, can learn to cook -it's not _'gender-specific_, after all! There are excellent online video clips and recipes for beginners - check out www. BBC Good Food.com, for a start. It could be a whole new adventure! 

I'd love to know if there are equivalent Spanish language websites of the same quality - l'd enjoy learning new Cookery skills in Spanish - I need more practice in both..! Does anyone know of any useful online sites? Thanks, in advance..!

GC


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## tonyinspain

GUAPACHICA said:


> Hey, Tonyinspain - so, what's stopping you?
> 
> My dad used to claim that the ability to cook, in order to feed yourself, was a 'survival skill' which everyone should be required to learn (so, are you listening, UK Govt. Education Minister&#133;?).
> 
> BTW - that interest in cooking took my father all the way from being a teenaged RN sailor and raw recruit, to his final Naval role, some 34 years later, as Head of the RN Cookery School, in Chatham Naval Base, Kent - prior to both his and that base's retirement! So, I grew up thinking that men did the cooking, whilst their wives did the washing up! My mother never did become proficient at baking, whilst my father's first Commissioning cake, made for the launch of the first 'HMS Hermes' Aircraft Carrier was the most perfectly iced cake I'd seen in my life, LOL!
> 
> So, you, too, can learn to cook -it's not 'gender-specific, after all! There are excellent online video clips and recipes for beginners - check out www. BBC Good Food.com, for a start. It could be a whole new adventure!
> 
> I'd love to know if there are equivalent Spanish language websites of the same quality - l'd enjoy learning new Cookery skills in Spanish - I need more practice in both..! Does anyone know of any useful online sites? Thanks, in advance..!
> 
> GC


I can cook and being exforces all in stew is the food of the day but everytime i try to experiment like curry blows your head off and its actually excellent for constipation
Its the experimental food that gets me i tried making bread but a trip to the dentist put paid to that 
But it made great door stops lol


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## zenkarma

tonyinspain said:


> ... i try to experiment like curry blows your head off


I've always been quite passionate about Indian food, particularly good Indian food in restaurants but whenever I've had any Indian food in Spain I've always been pretty disappointed with it compared to the quality you get in England.

I know this will probably vary by region and even restaurant but has the situation improved or I have just been unfortunate to visit some pretty average Indian restaurants in Spain?

I appreciate most people don't go to Spain to eat Indian food! I enjoy most styles, regions and cuisines, but Indian food in Spain has always disappointed for some reason.

And I make a great paella, I've even got a proper paella pan!


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## tonyinspain

zenkarma said:


> I've always been quite passionate about Indian food, particularly good Indian food in restaurants but whenever I've had any Indian food in Spain I've always been pretty disappointed with it compared to the quality you get in England.
> 
> I know this will probably vary by region and even restaurant but has the situation improved or I have just been unfortunate to visit some pretty average Indian restaurants in Spain?
> 
> I appreciate most people don't go to Spain to eat Indian food! I enjoy most styles, regions and cuisines, but Indian food in Spain has always disappointed for some reason.
> 
> And I make a great paella, I've even got a proper paella pan!


One thing i miss here as i come from bradford they had the best curries in the world after few pints in the mecca dancehall always finished the night at the taj mahal glorious days that 
Here im like you very dissapointed with the curries here 
Proberly our country was unique in taking it on board very early 40 odd years ago and spain i would say is relativly new to indian quisine as even kababs are now starting to pop up everywhere
But the Impression i get from spanish friends is they really dont like very hot food with masses of red hot chillies and peppers in them 
But give me a nice curry anytime the hotter the better 😰


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## baldilocks

But the majority of the curries you get in UK are not authentic Indian curries just something invented in Britain to satisfy the expats returning from the British Raj.

Spain does not, historically, have hot food of this nature nor does it have chillis which (as a surprise to most Brits and Americans) both come from hot countries because both curries and chillis, in addition to being hot, are very spicy and hide the taste of rancid meat. In Spain, most meats are eaten fresh or properly preserved so that they don't go rancid (or very rarely).


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## tonyinspain

baldilocks said:


> But the majority of the curries you get in UK are not authentic Indian curries just something invented in Britain to satisfy the expats returning from the British Raj.
> 
> Spain does not, historically, have hot food of this nature nor does it have chillis which (as a surprise to most Brits and Americans) both come from hot countries because both curries and chillis, in addition to being hot, are very spicy and hide the taste of rancid meat. In Spain, most meats are eaten fresh or properly preserved so that they don't go rancid (or very rarely).


You hit it on the head their baldy curries were used to hide the taste of rancid meat and also gunpowder was used 
I stilk love english style currie even though ive eaten in india and pakistan and i have many indian and pakistani friends i love their food 
I lived in malaya for three years as a child and i think its from this experience i enjoy hot food not to mention travelling in the army


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## icaru

sorry, wrong thread.


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## icaru

Have lived in both countries, 15 years in Rome, 3 years on the Costa del Sol. I prefer Italy hands down. But as others have said, it so much depends on how far away you live from a city or a coastal area. Just returned yesterday from Florence via Pisa. I think 10-20 km outside of Pisa would be much more expensive than some of the rural areas in Spain, i.e., Spain is cheaper. The 3-course + drink 'menu del día' for €8 in Spain is unmatched anywhere near Pisa. Southern coastal Spain has better weather than anywhere in Italy. More Spaniards speak English than Italians do so English-speaking doctors are more prevalent in Spain if that's important. Health and car insurance are cheaper in Spain. But for natural beauty, superb food, cultural richness, preservation of character, charm and antiquity, Italy wins out. Even the small villages of Spain do not hold a candle to those of Italy, IMHO.


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## Lonely

Well...it seems I am the only Italian posting here so I can tell you that Italy has so many differences between an area and another one, so that unless you are more specific it's impossible to compare costs properly.

That said...after living in Bubbleland Australia, I am ready to buy property in Spain where I don't know anybody...why not Italy? Because the Italian property bubble has yet to pop.


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## baldilocks

icaru said:


> Have lived in both countries, 15 years in Rome, 3 years on the Costa del Sol. I prefer Italy hands down. But as others have said, it so much depends on how far away you live from a city or a coastal area. Just returned yesterday from Florence via Pisa. I think 10-20 km outside of Pisa would be much more expensive than some of the rural areas in Spain, i.e., Spain is cheaper. The 3-course + drink 'menu del día' for €8 in Spain is unmatched anywhere near Pisa. Southern coastal Spain has better weather than anywhere in Italy. More Spaniards speak English than Italians do so English-speaking doctors are more prevalent in Spain if that's important. Health and car insurance are cheaper in Spain. But for natural beauty, superb food, cultural richness, preservation of character, charm and antiquity, Italy wins out. Even the small villages of Spain do not hold a candle to those of Italy, IMHO.


As always, so much depends on what you are looking for and what you want to avoid. My personal choice is a village in inland Spain (see my albums) away from tourist areas and other expats/immigrants (Brits, Dutch, Germans, etc)


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## Guest

niceguyjohn said:


> do you think it is cheaper to live (retired) in Spain or italy? Lets assume equal areas in each country, renting an apartment, in small town close 10 to 20 KMs to a mid sise city. buying and owning a used car, ect. I would be curious to know your various opinions. I have lived in Italy for 2 years albit it was 8 years ago now. I was in the Pisa area and loved it very much. Now live in Canada and am thinking to retire in either Ialy or Spain.


I am a Spanish resident and I have a good friend who is a resident in Italy. They are both beautiful countries to live in. We visit Italy when we can, and my friend visits us in Spain. We are both agreed that Spain these days is probably the cheapest, but I guess you'll not get a true answer unless you are talking like for like. Cost of fuel for your car is much more expensive in Italy. The cost of a good red wine is much more expensive. Eating out in Italy we find expensive, but other than that I have no idea.
My friend lives in a rural area of Italy. I just love the place and the people, but then I feel the same about Spain.


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