# Possibility of moving to Spain



## NatashaG

We are currently considering moving to Spain.

There would be myself (aged 34), my husband (aged 44), our 16 year old son, 14 year old daughter and 6 year old daughter.

We want to live someone with a high population of British expats as we hope this would help us find work and the children to settle in a little easier.

My husband and I are both hairdressers, our son will be at the age for college and wants to study motor mechanics and our daughters will obviously still be at school.

My questions are: which areas are high pop with British expats? How difficult would we find finding work as hairdressers? Do the kids in Spain start college at age 16 same as here and does anyone know if it would be relatively easy for our son to get on a motor mechanics course? Lastly (sorry for all the questions), we would like our daughters to go to English/Spanish schools as we would like them to have the chance of becoming bi-lingual (especially our younger daughter), are the state schools generally very good?

Many thanks.


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## Nugget_Hound

I too am looking for a move to Spain but I am more interested in living in the countryside where the only voices I can hear are Spanish ones  , good luck with your quest I have no information I can offer you other than do loads and loads of research!!!


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## Pesky Wesky

NatashaG said:


> We are currently considering moving to Spain.
> 
> There would be myself (aged 34), my husband (aged 44), our 16 year old son, 14 year old daughter and 6 year old daughter.
> 
> We want to live someone with a high population of British expats as we hope this would help us find work and the children to settle in a little easier.
> 
> My husband and I are both hairdressers, our son will be at the age for college and wants to study motor mechanics and our daughters will obviously still be at school.
> 
> My questions are: which areas are high pop with British expats? How difficult would we find finding work as hairdressers? Do the kids in Spain start college at age 16 same as here and does anyone know if it would be relatively easy for our son to get on a motor mechanics course? Lastly (sorry for all the questions), we would like our daughters to go to English/Spanish schools as we would like them to have the chance of becoming bi-lingual (especially our younger daughter), are the state schools generally very good?
> 
> Many thanks.


Hello,
If I were you I'd start off by looking at the FAQ's especially the first post and the third.

But the first thing I can tell you is that in state schools there are plenty of mechanics courses, but they will of course be in Spanish. You'd have to be here around spring time to sign him up for that.


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## jojo

NatashaG said:


> We are currently considering moving to Spain.
> 
> There would be myself (aged 34), my husband (aged 44), our 16 year old son, 14 year old daughter and 6 year old daughter.
> 
> We want to live someone with a high population of British expats as we hope this would help us find work and the children to settle in a little easier.
> 
> My husband and I are both hairdressers, our son will be at the age for college and wants to study motor mechanics and our daughters will obviously still be at school.
> 
> My questions are: which areas are high pop with British expats? How difficult would we find finding work as hairdressers? Do the kids in Spain start college at age 16 same as here and does anyone know if it would be relatively easy for our son to get on a motor mechanics course? Lastly (sorry for all the questions), we would like our daughters to go to English/Spanish schools as we would like them to have the chance of becoming bi-lingual (especially our younger daughter), are the state schools generally very good?
> 
> Many thanks.


I'm sorry, but you will get some negative posts in answer to your questions. 

1/ You need to prove you have a livable income and healthcare provision before you can become residents

2/ There are more than enough hairdresser in Spain - many are expats of all nationalities and are struggling. The best you could hope for is to rent a chair in an existing salon - you would have to be autonomo, which will cost 260€ a month - but that would mean your healthcare would be covered

3/ College for your son would either be at a Spanish speaking college or maybe an International school (altho international generally only do A-levels for further education) - both of which will cost. I also suspect at 16, he would be considered an adult and have to prove an income to become resident

4/ Your 14yo would need to go to an international school unless she's totally fluent in Spanish. Spanish schools teach a different curriculum and in Spanish, so to enable her to take GCSEs, she'd need the international option.

5 Your youngest child would be ok in a state school
maybe someone else can say something??) I cant see much in the way of positives I'm afraid - Spain is no longer an easy country to relocate to and its been badly hit by the recession, far worse than the UK

Jo xxx


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## olivefarmer

I can't answer your question on hairdressing jobs but I suspect that unless you are very good the competition would be very fierce. 

Unemployment is very high, especially youth unemployment. *50%*. Probably a lot higher for non fluent Spanish speaking youths.

A couple of questions to ask yourselves would be what sort of a future your older son and older daughter are likely to have here? Will they be able to find a partner? Work? Buy a house? The youngest would I suspect adapt quite well and by the time she is independent who knows things _might _ have picked up in Spain.


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## 90199

Nugget_Hound said:


> I too am looking for a move to Spain but I am more interested in living in the countryside where the only voices I can hear are Spanish ones  , good luck with your quest I have no information I can offer you other than do loads and loads of research!!!



There are only four English residents on this remote Atlantic island........................

Photos on the link below............


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## Nugget_Hound

Hepa said:


> There are only four English residents on this remote Atlantic island........................
> 
> Photos on the link below............


Looks awesome , I want to wake up every morning , go into my garden , hack off a massive aloe leaf and smother myself with the gooey juice , I love that stuff!!!


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## Leper

Hi Natasha,

I think you did not do too much research. Have a look at some of my posts regarding the difficulty in obtaining decent paying work in Spain. 

Among the top "no-chance-whatsoevers" are the new arrivals in Spain wanting to make a living as a hairdresser. You are bringing two hairdressers to the table already stocked with loads of unemployed hairdressers.

There are so many hairdressers fighting for the same customers at the moment and for the foreseeable future that Spain should have the best hirsuit appendaged people in the world.

I wish you success, but the most likely reality is that you will be hiring an empty seat in a hairdressing salon which will remain empty and cost you dearly. Please don't take offence to what I am saying because the hairdressers I know are maintaining empty salon seats while cleaning apartments in the hope of making a few bob. And these are the lucky ones.


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## 213979

Hepa said:


> There are only four English residents on this remote Atlantic island........................
> 
> Photos on the link below............


Oh man. Beautiful!!!


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## mrypg9

I have to agree with Leper. Loads of hairdressers round here, many offering prices so low they must find it hard to make a decent living.
If you have work in the U.K. hang on to it as the situation here is very bad indeed.
Maybe it's not quite as dire in the north or the larger towns and cities but along this strip of the coast, sandwiched between sea and sierra, unemployment is well above the national average, at 34% plus, for young people at 60%.
Apart from tourism and agriculture there is nothing here, really. 
The first time I realised just how bad things were was about a year or so ago when I had to go to Estepona early one morning and saw a queue at the local unemployment office which stretched for what seemed miles. The last time I saw a queue like that was in the Soviet Union when vodka went on sale again after being banned. It's worse now. People are willing to work for slave wages, as little as 5 euros an hour being quite common round here. I've heard of people working for 4 or even 3 euros an hour.
The only immigrants enjoying their lives in Spain are those with secure, reasonably well-paid jobs, people with businesses they can run from anywhere and retired people with good incomes.
As I said, from what some posters say there is more chance of work away from the costas but then you won't find much of a British immigrant community.

In order to get residence here you now have to prove an income of around £6000 per person including each child plus proof of health insurance. There is no child benefit, housing benefit or much of any sort of benefit in Spain.


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## mrypg9

I have to agree with Leper. Loads of hairdressers round here, many offering prices so low they must find it hard to make a decent living.
If you have work in the U.K. hang on to it as the situation here is very bad indeed.
Maybe it's not quite as dire in the north or the larger towns and cities but along this strip of the coast, sandwiched between sea and sierra, unemployment is well above the national average, at 34% plus, for young people at 60%.
Apart from tourism and agriculture there is nothing here, really. 
The first time I realised just how bad things were was about a year or so ago when I had to go to Estepona early one morning and saw a queue at the local unemployment office which stretched for what seemed miles. The last time I saw a queue like that was in the Soviet Union when vodka went on sale again after being banned. It's worse now. People are willing to work for slave wages, as little as 5 euros an hour being quite common round here. I've heard of people working for 4 or even 3 euros an hour.
The only immigrants enjoying their lives in Spain are those with secure, reasonably well-paid jobs, people with businesses they can run from anywhere and retired people with good incomes.
As I said, from what some posters say there is more chance of work away from the costas but then you won't find much of a British immigrant community.

In order to get residence here you now have to prove an income of around £6000 per person including each child plus proof of health insurance. There is no child benefit, housing benefit or much of any sort of benefit in Spain.[/QUOTE]


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## David1979

Even in the worst-hit places in Scotland you can be guaranteed that there are three places that are always doing business. The bookies, the pub & hairdressers.

Why is it any different in Spain? Is everyone turning into hippies? Does Spanish hair grow slower than British hair?

I understand that there may be an abundance of hair dressers (as there are here), but when I hear that the hair salons sit empty I have to wonder what is actually going on...


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## mrypg9

David1979 said:


> Even in the worst-hit places in Scotland you can be guaranteed that there are three places that are always doing business. The bookies, the pub & hairdressers.
> 
> Why is it any different in Spain? Is everyone turning into hippies? Does Spanish hair grow slower than British hair?
> 
> I understand that there may be an abundance of hair dressers (as there are here), but when I hear that the hair salons sit empty I have to wonder what is actually going on...


David, you can't compare Glasgow to the Costas.  I think you'll get a shock when you arrive here.
OK, there are three hairdressers eking out a living, perhaps making barely enough to live on. But add another one or two and somebody will lose out, most likely the newcomers.

What is actually going on in my area is this: the main source of work here was the construction industry and that is now almost completely halted and will be for some time to come. Tourism is down and because of the huge number of unemployed there is less money in circulation. People are losing their homes and whole families are living off charity. Every town has a soup kitchen and in Estepona the Ayto has signed an agreement with local supermarkets to collect unsold food at the end of the day to distribute via Caritas and the Red Cross to the needy.
When you lose your job here after a couple of years -I think it's two - you get something like 450 euros a month from the state. That's it. No Child Benefit, Housing Benefit and so on.
So for many, going to the hairdresser is a luxury, perhaps an unaffordable one. Going to the dentist,which is expensive, is another luxury people often go without.

It's easy to say there must be work and yes, there is. If 34% are jobless then 66% are employed. But for most people wages are much lower than in the UK and many jobs aren't that secure. Such jobs that do crop up usually go to people who are 'enchufado' - people with local ties and connections.

There are almost seven million people out of work here, many for years, not weeks or months. In my area there are few long-term job prospects. Most of these people will be industrious, hard-working, reliable etc. etc. But they are still on the meagre dole.

You will come as a single man with no dependants, a whole different scenario from a couple bringing a family with them, with children who need education, healthcare as well as the basics...food, clothing. 
However hard times may be in Glasgow, I don't recall people committing suicide because they are unemployed or have had their houses dispossessed, or if they do, not in the numbers that occur here.

If by chance you fail here, you will pack up and move on. But it's not so easy when you have a family to consider.


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## Pesky Wesky

David1979 said:


> Even in the worst-hit places in Scotland you can be guaranteed that there are three places that are always doing business. The bookies, the pub & hairdressers.
> 
> Why is it any different in Spain? Is everyone turning into hippies? Does Spanish hair grow slower than British hair?
> 
> I understand that there may be an abundance of hair dressers (as there are here), but when I hear that the hair salons sit empty I have to wonder what is actually going on...


What is going on?
One of two things
There are too many hairdressers already here. The op will be up against people already established and the British population is a bit ubstable at the moment.
OR
The people who are here aren't going to the hairdressers so much. British people because their money isn't going so far and maybe they've had employment problems, Spaniards because of unemployment too, although I presume that the OPs don't speak enough Spanish to attend the natives.

And, both of them are hairdressers.

Please be aware that we are not trying to be negative or persuade people not to come - why would we do that - just tell people what we can see around us.


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## chris&vicky

Anybody who posts that they wish to move to Spain will get negative posts. It does not matter if you say you are seeking work, or not seeking work. Taking early retirement or late retirement. Have loads of money in the bank or no money in the bank. Want to live in the country or by the coast. Whatever you say somebody will post negative. I have never seen a positive post. Best to do your own research. Having said all that my partner is Spanish and she can't get a job!


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## mrypg9

chris&vicky said:


> Anybody who posts that they wish to move to Spain will get negative posts. It does not matter if you say you are seeking work, or not seeking work. Taking early retirement or late retirement. Have loads of money in the bank or no money in the bank. Want to live in the country or by the *coast. Whatever you say somebody will post negative. I have never seen a positive post*. Best to do your own research. Having said all that my partner is Spanish and she can't get a job!


Then with all due respect you haven't read very carefully
My viewpoint is and always has been simple: if you are single or a couple with no dependants, no harm in trying your luck, assuming you have money for a return ticket.. If you are in a trade which is already oversubscribed and speak no Spanish and have dependent children, you really need to do a lot of research and get a job before committing yourself.
Now that's common sense.
I've only lived here four years but that's enough to be able to make a judgment about the availability of work. I know too many people in desperate situations.
Your last sentence sums it up, really.
Would you advise a family with a trade that is already oversubscribed, no Spanish and jobs in the UK to come here without having a secure job lined up?
Or a retired person with nor much in the way of pension income?
It's no skin off my nose if people come on spec and it all goes t*ts up. But I wouldn't like to think that I encouraged them.


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## baldilocks

Within my street of just over 100 houses, there are two hairdressers, with two more just round the corner. Loyalties are strong here and if someone finds a hairdresser he or she likes then they usually stick with that one. That applies to both female and male customers!


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## chris&vicky

mrypg9 said:


> Then with all due respect you haven't read very carefully
> My viewpoint is and always has been simple: if you are single or a couple with no dependants, no harm in trying your luck, assuming you have money for a return ticket.. If you are in a trade which is already oversubscribed and speak no Spanish and have dependent children, you really need to do a lot of research and get a job before committing yourself.
> Now that's common sense.
> I've only lived here four years but that's enough to be able to make a judgment about the availability of work. I know too many people in desperate situations.
> Your last sentence sums it up, really.
> Would you advise a family with a trade that is already oversubscribed, no Spanish and jobs in the UK to come here without having a secure job lined up?
> Or a retired person with nor much in the way of pension income?
> It's no skin off my nose if people come on spec and it all goes t*ts up. But I wouldn't like to think that I encouraged them.


I was just feeling a little mischievous  :banplease:


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## 90199

*Positive Post*

My friends wife was made redundant, she was a hotel receptionist, however she has other skills, she is a *hairdresser and manicurist*, so she rented some premises, husband fitted it out with sinks and chairs etc. She sub lets part of the premises to a lady who comes once every five weeks, to remove unwanted hair with a laser.

Well now, that was over two years ago, she is still in business!

another *Positive Post *

In February last year, my friend Francisco and his Colombian wife Diana took on a failed restaurant and bar, they both work in the kitchen, they have employed another of my friends, who is the waitress and barmaid. Last summer there was a large fiesta Francisco stayed open all night and sold over 100 pizzas average price 7.50 €

They are still in business and this is on an island where there is 37% unemployed, earthquakes, volcanoes and a decrease in population by 20%.

Sometimes you just have to have confidence in your own abilities and skills and go for it, these people did.


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## baldilocks

It comes down to one of two things - be employed by somebody else or self-employed.

In the current situation, your chances of being employed by somebody else are so remote as to be non-existent unless you have some extra-special skill set that nobody else has and you can furnish an employer with the reasons to employ *you* rather than someone else. This also hangs on your ability to work in the *local* language which might be Basque, Catalan, Valenciano, Mallorcan, etc.

Self-employment is a possible route but you *really do need* to have a USP with the emphasis on 'unique' and it has to be in a field that is not already oversubscribed. You will need also to factor in the cost of Social Security (at least €260 for you plus for any others you employ) even if you don't take a penny (turnover, not profit!) The café/bar/restaurant trade is oversubscribed so, again you have to not only offer something different (very different in some cases) you have to find something that may be popular, popular enough with, and appeal to, the locals who will be there all year for you to have a going and growing business.


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## Stacey

Hi there, 
I live in Javea, plenty of British people, Loads of hairdressers. Yes unemployment is very high, but if you can make a living, the positives out weigh everything.
Beautiful beaches, clean air, lots of walks, sailing clubs, you name it it, if it's outside activities you enjoy there are plenty. 
My children (3 boys) have all been educated here in the Spanish system. Granted the eldest struggled a bit as he was older (13yrs) He does work so all hope is not lost. They are very active in the Spanish way ie. fiestas, parades, etc. 
I think with all good comes a bit of bad. And I can tell you there are many Brits still moving to Spain every day. 
It's a fab place to live, just need a bit of faith that you can do it.
Regards,
Stacy


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## jojo

Stacey said:


> Hi there,
> I live in Javea, plenty of British people, Loads of hairdressers. Yes unemployment is very high, but if you can make a living, the positives out weigh everything.
> Beautiful beaches, clean air, lots of walks, sailing clubs, you name it it, if it's outside activities you enjoy there are plenty.
> My children (3 boys) have all been educated here in the Spanish system. Granted the eldest struggled a bit as he was older (13yrs) He does work so all hope is not lost. They are very active in the Spanish way ie. fiestas, parades, etc.
> I think with all good comes a bit of bad. And I can tell you there are many Brits still moving to Spain every day.
> It's a fab place to live, just need a bit of faith that you can do it.
> Regards,
> Stacy



While I agree with alot of what you say, a 16yo and a 14yo will struggle in the Spanish education system. And to be able to gain residency, they need to have an income and healthcare provision sorted out - so the answer is for them to get contracted employment BEFORE they finally move over

So a few fact finding trips in order I'd say

Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica

Stacey said:


> Hi there,
> I live in Javea, plenty of British people, Loads of hairdressers. Yes unemployment is very high, *but if you can make a living, the positives out weigh everything.*
> Beautiful beaches, clean air, lots of walks, sailing clubs, you name it it, if it's outside activities you enjoy there are plenty.
> My children (3 boys) have all been educated here in the Spanish system. Granted the eldest struggled a bit as he was older (13yrs) He does work so all hope is not lost. They are very active in the Spanish way ie. fiestas, parades, etc.
> I think with all good comes a bit of bad. And I can tell you there are many Brits still moving to Spain every day.
> It's a fab place to live, just need a bit of faith that you can do it.
> Regards,
> Stacy


*
absolutely - IF you can make a living*

like me, you've been here quite some time & are established

someone asked me a week or so back if I'd do it all again now - I had to say that in the exact same circumstances we were in 10 years ago (not reliant on Spain for an income), then yes.............. probably

but I'd for sure have done MUCH more research than I did 10 years ago - & knowing what I know about how the recession is affecting Spain as a whole, & young people in particular...... it's entirely possible that I wouldn't

I'm just so very glad that my elder daughter is bright enough to go on to Bachi & then uni, or she'd be a NINI right now desperately looking for work - & we still have a few more years of school yet for my younger one before we have to worry about her


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## mrypg9

chris&vicky said:


> I was just feeling a little mischievous  :banplease:


Not a good day for any sense of humour I might still have, I'm afraid...Just heard more bad news about an unemployed friend, now homeless...

Try again tomorrow


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## Megsmum

chris&vicky said:


> Anybody who posts that they wish to move to Spain will get negative posts. It does not matter if you say you are seeking work, or not seeking work. Taking early retirement or late retirement. Have loads of money in the bank or no money in the bank. Want to live in the country or by the coast. Whatever you say somebody will post negative. I have never seen a positive post. Best to do your own research. Having said all that my partner is Spanish and she can't get a job!





chris&vicky said:


> I was just feeling a little mischievous  :banplease:



I was just about to have a rant - LOL untill I saw your follow up post

I have not had any negative posts, advice yes , some I may not have wanted to hear, but if you don't like the answers don't ask the question. 

Would I be planning to go if we HAD to earn money, no way, but then we are in our mid 50's, not past it but not at an age where, from a work point of view we would want to start again. I have to agree, forums are where you ask the question, way up the pro's and con's, go and find out information for yourself. Make the decision, and then take responsibility for it.


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## Pesky Wesky

chris&vicky said:


> Anybody who posts that they wish to move to Spain will get negative posts. It does not matter if you say you are seeking work, or not seeking work. Taking early retirement or late retirement. Have loads of money in the bank or no money in the bank. Want to live in the country or by the coast. Whatever you say somebody will post negative. I have never seen a positive post. Best to do your own research. Having said all that my partner is Spanish and she can't get a job!


That's not a very positive post, is it!

I'm with mrypg9 on this - read again and for the few who seem to have a good idea of what they're coming to, and are not in the position of dragging down a whole family if their story doesn't work out, you'll see some positive posts.
I'd also say look at the difference in posts pre 2009/ 10 ish ie pre crisis.

And, if you'd like to add some positivity, with real experience to back it up, I'm for one am ready to hear it!!

I myself heard that I'll not be taken back on for lunchtime classes (English teacher) by a company that I've been with for 9 years. In that time I saw them go from 110 something employees, to 550 and they are now a Spanish company, not multinational with 23 employees. That's my reality.


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## baldilocks

cambio said:


> I have not had any negative posts, advice yes , some I may not have wanted to hear, but if you don't like the answers don't ask the question.
> 
> Would I be planning to go if we HAD to earn money, no way, but then we are in our mid 50's, not past it but not at an age where, from a work point of view we would want to start again. I have to agree, forums are where you ask the question, way up the pro's and con's, go and find out information for yourself. Make the decision, and then take responsibility for it.


Many of us who are well established and content with our lot had to do all the research ourselves because the forums weren't available. 

I started my researches in 2001 (we moved towards the end of 2008) with a list of seven countries with which we had some sort of a link (language, property, family, friends, etc.) and, of course, a number of locations in each. By 2006, we had settled on Spain, then came deciding on the area we wanted and why. We worked intensively on making our dream come true, even down to packing stuff that would go with us that we didn't need to have in normal use. June 2007, we had decided not only on the area we wanted we had paid our deposit on a house. 

How could we be so sure? would we not have been better renting?, etc? 

We did our research *thoroughly*. When one has a limited budget, one cannot afford to make mistakes! We have been living here now for 4½ years and could not have done better if we had tried.


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## David1979

mrypg9 said:


> David, you can't compare Glasgow to the Costas.  I think you'll get a shock when you arrive here.


Please don't be under the impression that I'm coming over to set up business there with no prior knowledge of the area. I've been visiting and researching the area for over a year and a half, and have stayed there on and off for months at a time.



mrypg9 said:


> What is actually going on in my area is this: the main source of work here was the construction industry and that is now almost completely halted and will be for some time to come. Tourism is down and because of the huge number of unemployed there is less money in circulation. People are losing their homes and whole families are living off charity. Every town has a soup kitchen and in Estepona the Ayto has signed an agreement with local supermarkets to collect unsold food at the end of the day to distribute via Caritas and the Red Cross to the needy.
> When you lose your job here after a couple of years -I think it's two - you get something like 450 euros a month from the state. That's it. No Child Benefit, Housing Benefit and so on.
> So for many, going to the hairdresser is a luxury, perhaps an unaffordable one. Going to the dentist,which is expensive, is another luxury people often go without.


You make it sound as though Spain is a 3rd world country in that post. I'm not arguing that times are tough, but in my experience people are still spending money, even if it isn't at the levels in the past. For example, Malaga city centre has numerous coffee houses and restaurants. They're always busy whenever I've been there.

The people I've seen walking around are well turned out and all have had trendy or respectable haircuts! There's no one walking around looking like a scruff!



mrypg9 said:


> You will come as a single man with no dependants, a whole different scenario from a couple bringing a family with them, with children who need education, healthcare as well as the basics...food, clothing.


I will come to Spain as a hard working businessman, who has never been without a house and a car, and who earns a comfortable living as a professional photographer, working for various orchestra and classical music organisations in the UK. I've already got early propositions to work in the same field within Spain. I've also worked as an alternative & wedding photographer in the UK, and will continue to do so.

On top of that I'm investing money in a tattoo business, which I've also done in the UK.

I won't be alone though, I'll be with my partner, who is a classically trained soprano and professional music teacher.

I admit, I'm not exactly coming from a poverty-stricken background, and if my business doesn't take off right away I won't be living on the poverty line in Spain either, so maybe my view of the regular, 9-5 working Spaniard is slightly off.

The industries that I work in haven't really suffered in recent years. The people who want tattoos have always been able to afford them, and the people who are willing to pay for documentary-style wedding or event photography have always been able to pay for it.

It may be different in Spain, but my research has suggested that it won't.


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## jojo

All you can do is try it. You may succeed, you may fail. The odds are heavily stacked against you - if only because you're not Spanish, dont understand "how it is" and are not fluent, but Spain needs your money, so give it a go. Regardless of your qualifications and finances it'll be down to luck in the end - so hopefully you'll be lucky

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

David1979 said:


> Please don't be under the impression that I'm coming over to set up business there with no prior knowledge of the area. I've been visiting and researching the area for over a year and a half, and have stayed there on and off for months at a time.
> 
> 
> You make it sound as though Spain is a 3rd world country in that post. I'm not arguing that times are tough, but in my experience people are still spending money, even if it isn't at the levels in the past. For example, Malaga city centre has numerous coffee houses and restaurants. They're always busy whenever I've been there.
> 
> The people I've seen walking around are well turned out and all have had trendy or respectable haircuts! There's no one walking around looking like a scruff!
> 
> 
> I will come to Spain as a hard working businessman, who has never been without a house and a car, and who earns a comfortable living as a professional photographer, working for various orchestra and classical music organisations in the UK. I've already got early propositions to work in the same field within Spain. I've also worked as an alternative & wedding photographer in the UK, and will continue to do so.
> 
> On top of that I'm investing money in a tattoo business, which I've also done in the UK.
> 
> I won't be alone though, I'll be with my partner, who is a classically trained soprano and professional music teacher.
> 
> I admit, I'm not exactly coming from a poverty-stricken background, and if my business doesn't take off right away I won't be living on the poverty line in Spain either, so maybe my view of the regular, 9-5 working Spaniard is slightly off.
> 
> The industries that I work in haven't really suffered in recent years. The people who want tattoos have always been able to afford them, and the people who are willing to pay for documentary-style wedding or event photography have always been able to pay for it.
> 
> It may be different in Spain, but my research has suggested that it won't.


And I hope it all works out for you.  But I think you are underestimating the seriousness of the economic situation in many parts of Spain. People who have lived and worked here for many years, people like PW, Leper and Xavia have a much better grasp of how things are than you or I since I don't work, at least not for pay, but for a charity.
Yes, some villages and towns in inland Andalucia and parts of Estremadura do resemble their counterparts in Morocco or Tunisia. I've said already that where are live although 34% are jobless 66% work but the effect of that 34% is very visible in the local economy.
Of course you will see well-dressed people with good haircuts. You'll see that in Glasgow but Glasgow has islands of prosperity set in a sea of poverty and depression. I love visiting that city...but I stay in 'nice' hotels, eat in good restaurants and shop in that nice Mall off Argyle Street. I don't spend time in the east end or anywhere more typical of the majority experience unless I visit the People's Palace, my favourite museum, by the way.
The same in Spain. Marbella is always busy, well-dressed people, lots of money in circulation. Go a few kilometres further south and you'll see a different picture.
Our village doesn't have beggars in the street but a couple of shops and bars have closed recently. Our charity has a shop in Estepona where we sell second-hand clothes and you'd be amazed at the kind of clientele we now attract, people who you might expect to find looking at the designer labels in Cortes Ingles.. 
One thing I must say...you don't know a country until you have lived in it, really lived in it, no matter how often you've visited and for how long. I'd been visiting Prague for over thirty years, staying for long periods, speaking some Czech, with good friends....but it wasn't until I rented a place and did the everyday things that the strangeness of it all hit me.
You comment about the 9 to 5 Spaniard....I haven't come across many who work those hours. The 8 to 2 Spaniard or 10 to 2 then 4 to 8, 9 or later might be a better description..
Look, no-one is saying you won't succeed. You'll have no problems finding and opening your shop. Depending on location, you could attract plenty of custom.
Yoru music photography sounds more interesting to me though as I am a great opera/classical music fan.
But don't make too light of the very real problems far too many people here are currently facing. Seven million jobless can't be igb=nored. 
That's all.


----------



## mrypg9

David1979 said:


> Please don't be under the impression that I'm coming over to set up business there with no prior knowledge of the area. I've been visiting and researching the area for over a year and a half, and have stayed there on and off for months at a time.
> 
> 
> You make it sound as though Spain is a 3rd world country in that post. I'm not arguing that times are tough, but in my experience people are still spending money, even if it isn't at the levels in the past. For example, Malaga city centre has numerous coffee houses and restaurants. They're always busy whenever I've been there.
> 
> The people I've seen walking around are well turned out and all have had trendy or respectable haircuts! There's no one walking around looking like a scruff!
> 
> 
> I will come to Spain as a hard working businessman, who has never been without a house and a car, and who earns a comfortable living as a professional photographer, working for various orchestra and classical music organisations in the UK. I've already got early propositions to work in the same field within Spain. I've also worked as an alternative & wedding photographer in the UK, and will continue to do so.
> 
> On top of that I'm investing money in a tattoo business, which I've also done in the UK.
> 
> I won't be alone though, I'll be with my partner, who is a classically trained soprano and professional music teacher.
> 
> I admit, I'm not exactly coming from a poverty-stricken background, and if my business doesn't take off right away I won't be living on the poverty line in Spain either, so maybe my view of the regular, 9-5 working Spaniard is slightly off.
> 
> The industries that I work in haven't really suffered in recent years. The people who want tattoos have always been able to afford them, and the people who are willing to pay for documentary-style wedding or event photography have always been able to pay for it.
> 
> It may be different in Spain, but my research has suggested that it won't.


And I hope it all works out for you.  But I think you are underestimating the seriousness of the economic situation in many parts of Spain. People who have lived and worked here for many years, people like PW, Leper and Xavia have a much better grasp of how things are than you or I since I don't work, at least not for pay, but for a charity.
Yes, some villages and towns in inland Andalucia and parts of Estremadura do resemble their counterparts in Morocco or Tunisia. I've said already that where we live although 34% are jobless 66% have work of a kind but the effect of that jobless 34% is very visible in the local economy.
Of course you will see well-dressed people with good haircuts in cities like Malaga as well as well-dressed people - Spaniards don't do 'scruff'.. You'll see that in Glasgow but Glasgow too has islands of prosperity set in a sea of poverty and depression. I love visiting that city...but I stay in 'nice' hotels, eat in good restaurants and shop in that nice Mall off Argyle Street. I don't spend time in the east end or anywhere more typical of the majority experience unless I go to the Green to visit the People's Palace, my favourite museum, by the way.
The same in Spain. Marbella is always busy, well-dressed people, lots of money in circulation. Go a few kilometres further south and you'll see a different picture.
Our village doesn't have beggars in the street but a couple of shops and bars have closed recently. Our charity has a shop in Estepona where we sell second-hand clothes and you'd be amazed at the kind of clientele we now attract, people who you might expect to find looking at the designer labels in Cortes Ingles.. 
One thing I must say...you don't know a country until you have lived in it, really lived in it, no matter how often you've visited and for how long. I'd been visiting Prague for over thirty years, staying for long periods, speaking some Czech, with good friends....but it wasn't until I rented a place and did the everyday things that the strangeness of it all hit me.
You comment about the 9 to 5 Spaniard....I haven't come across many who work those hours. The 8 to 2 Spaniard or 10 to 2 then 4 to 8, 9 or later might be a better description..
Look, no-one is saying you won't succeed. You'll have no problems finding and opening your shop. Depending on location, you could attract plenty of custom.
Yoru music photography sounds more interesting to me though as I am a great opera/classical music fan. Lots of good classical gigs round here.
But don't make too light of the very real problems far too many people here are currently facing. Seven million jobless can't be ignored. 
That's all.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

> I admit, I'm not exactly coming from a poverty-stricken background, and if my business doesn't take off right away I won't be living on the poverty line in Spain either, so maybe my view of the regular, 9-5 working Spaniard is slightly off.


A 9 - 5 working Spaniard?
They do exist, but are a rare race.

When you open your tattoo place normal working hours would be something along the lines of Mon - Sat 10:00 - 14:00 and 17:00 - 20:30/21:00 although I'm not sure if there'll be many people wanting tattoos at 10:00 on a Monday morning 

In offices I do know one company that does basically 9:00 - 17:30 (the one that's closing down!!) but the others do 9:00 - 19:00/ 20:00/ 21:00/ 22:00... even though officially their hours are 9:00 - 18:00, and they don't get paid overtime in any of the places I've worked at in recent years.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

chris&vicky said:


> Anybody who posts that they wish to move to Spain will get negative posts. It does not matter if you say you are seeking work, or not seeking work. Taking early retirement or late retirement. Have loads of money in the bank or no money in the bank. Want to live in the country or by the coast. Whatever you say somebody will post negative. I have never seen a positive post. Best to do your own research. Having said all that my partner is Spanish and she can't get a job!


BTW I just remembered this thread which I think ties in with your comment and other threads being discussed at the moment
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...d-you-recommend-comes-spain-live-now-why.html


----------



## Pazcat

Pesky Wesky said:


> I'm not sure if there'll be many people wanting tattoos at 10:00 on a Monday morning


Actually if he has some reputable artists(I'm curious to see who it was David mentioned, PM me) doing good work then you are more than happy to go whenever they are available. I have had a few sittings at that time and earlier, especially on the bigger one. I imagine you get the bigger appointments out the way early so there is room for footfall later on in the day.

Then again I don't know how a tattoo shop runs but mine have been early in the day mostly but there have been times I wished it wasn't so early when I'd had a skinful the night before.


----------



## mrypg9

Are tattoos popular with Spanish people? I've never really noticed..

I'm guessing most British immigrants here are a bit past having tattoos......or not?
If I were a couple of decades younger, I'd most certainly have had one, two...loads of space on me to have the entire heraldry of the British Royal family, were I that way inclined..


----------



## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> Are tattoos popular with Spanish people? I've never really noticed..
> 
> I'm guessing most British immigrants here are a bit past having tattoos......or not?
> If I were a couple of decades younger, I'd most certainly have had one, two...loads of space on me to have the entire heraldry of the British Royal family, were I that way inclined..


I had one done at Christmas.... my first

I always intended to have one before my 50th birthday.... I was a bit late


----------



## David1979

mrypg9 said:


> Marbella is always busy, well-dressed people, lots of money in circulation. Go a few kilometres further south and you'll see a different picture.


Which is why I'm looking at Marbella as a possible area for setting up in. I'll be doing my research and will keep everyone updated on how I get on.



mrypg9 said:


> You comment about the 9 to 5 Spaniard....I haven't come across many who work those hours. The 8 to 2 Spaniard or 10 to 2 then 4 to 8, 9 or later might be a better description..


Yeah, I wasn't meaning the actual hours worked, more the term "9-5" which is used to describe the average working Joe.



mrypg9 said:


> Yoru music photography sounds more interesting to me though as I am a great opera/classical music fan. Lots of good classical gigs round here.


It may be more interesting, but it won't be as financially lucrative as a tattoo shop, that's for sure.

I'll be continuing my photography on a part-time basis, but my first aim is establishing a profitable business.



mrypg9 said:


> But don't make too light of the very real problems far too many people here are currently facing. Seven million jobless can't be ignored.
> That's all.


I'm not making light of it at all, I'm simply saying that those problems exist _everywhere_, not just Spain.

Those east end of Glasgow places you speak of, as well as other areas on the outskirts of Glasgow have successful, well-run tattoo studios as well, all of which are turning a profit. It can be done.



Pesky Wesky said:


> When you open your tattoo place normal working hours would be something along the lines of Mon - Sat 10:00 - 14:00 and 17:00 - 20:30/21:00 although I'm not sure if there'll be many people wanting tattoos at 10:00 on a Monday morning


Yeah, I'll be opening up at around 12 until 2pm, then again from 6pm until 10pm.



mrypg9 said:


> Are tattoos popular with Spanish people? I've never really noticed..


Tattoos are popular mainly with young people in general. They are already a major part of our culture in Europe, and many Spanish sportsmen and athletes who are based in Spain have them;







































mrypg9 said:


> I'm guessing most British immigrants here are a bit past having tattoos......or not?


Again, you can't really generalise. I'm an immigrant here and I have them. So does my partner, and our neighbours, who are here from the US & Belgium.

I have a feeling that when I'm talking about tattoos you're imagining this kind of thing, being as you mentioned skinheads with skulls earlier;










Sure, that may have been the kind of person who sported tattoos in the 80's & 90's, but times have changed. We're living in the era of David Beckham, Robbie Williams and various other mainstream celebrities with artwork done. You'll see all types with tattoos today;


----------



## jojo

David1979 said:


> Which is why I'm looking at Marbella as a possible area for setting up in. I'll be doing my research and will keep everyone updated on how I get on.
> 
> 
> Yeah, I wasn't meaning the actual hours worked, more the term "9-5" which is used to describe the average working Joe.
> 
> 
> It may be more interesting, but it won't be as financially lucrative as a tattoo shop, that's for sure.
> 
> I'll be continuing my photography on a part-time basis, but my first aim is establishing a profitable business.
> 
> 
> I'm not making light of it at all, I'm simply saying that those problems exist _everywhere_, not just Spain.
> 
> Those east end of Glasgow places you speak of, as well as other areas on the outskirts of Glasgow have successful, well-run tattoo studios as well, all of which are turning a profit. It can be done.
> 
> 
> Yeah, I'll be opening up at around 12 until 2pm, then again from 6pm until 10pm.
> 
> 
> Tattoos are popular mainly with young people in general. They are already a major part of our culture in Europe, and many Spanish sportsmen and athletes who are based in Spain have them;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you can't really generalise. I'm an immigrant here and I have them. So does my partner, and our neighbours, who are here from the US & Belgium.
> 
> I have a feeling that when I'm talking about tattoos you're imagining this kind of thing, being as you mentioned skinheads with skulls earlier;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, that may have been the kind of person who sported tattoos in the 80's & 90's, but times have changed. We're living in the era of David Beckham, Robbie Williams and various other mainstream celebrities with artwork done. You'll see all types with tattoos today;



Try it, make sure you have all the correct permissions and papers and give it a shot and let us know how you get on!

Jo xxx


----------



## Sirtravelot

mrypg9 said:


> And I hope it all works out for you.  But I think you are underestimating the seriousness of the economic situation in many parts of Spain. People who have lived and worked here for many years, people like PW, Leper and Xavia have a much better grasp of how things are than you or I since I don't work, at least not for pay, but for a charity.
> Yes, some villages and towns in inland Andalucia and parts of Estremadura do resemble their counterparts in Morocco or Tunisia. I've said already that where we live although 34% are jobless 66% have work of a kind but the effect of that jobless 34% is very visible in the local economy.
> Of course you will see well-dressed people with good haircuts in cities like Malaga as well as well-dressed people - Spaniards don't do 'scruff'.. You'll see that in Glasgow but Glasgow too has islands of prosperity set in a sea of poverty and depression. I love visiting that city...but I stay in 'nice' hotels, eat in *good restaurants* and shop in that nice Mall off Argyle Street. I don't spend time in the east end or anywhere more typical of the majority experience unless I go to the Green to visit the People's Palace, my favourite museum, by the way.
> The same in Spain. Marbella is always busy, well-dressed people, lots of money in circulation. Go a few kilometres further south and you'll see a different picture.
> Our village doesn't have beggars in the street but a couple of shops and bars have closed recently. Our charity has a shop in Estepona where we sell second-hand clothes and you'd be amazed at the kind of clientele we now attract, people who you might expect to find looking at the designer labels in Cortes Ingles..
> One thing I must say...you don't know a country until you have lived in it, really lived in it, no matter how often you've visited and for how long. I'd been visiting Prague for over thirty years, staying for long periods, speaking some Czech, with good friends....but it wasn't until I rented a place and did the everyday things that the strangeness of it all hit me.
> You comment about the 9 to 5 Spaniard....I haven't come across many who work those hours. The 8 to 2 Spaniard or 10 to 2 then 4 to 8, 9 or later might be a better description..
> Look, no-one is saying you won't succeed. You'll have no problems finding and opening your shop. Depending on location, you could attract plenty of custom.
> Yoru music photography sounds more interesting to me though as I am a great opera/classical music fan. Lots of good classical gigs round here.
> But don't make too light of the very real problems far too many people here are currently facing. Seven million jobless can't be ignored.
> That's all.


Sorry, but I have to out you as the liar that you are.











There are no good restaurants in Glasgow.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

*David1979*


> Yeah, I wasn't meaning the actual hours worked, more the term "9-5" which is used to describe the average working Joe.


OK. So, the average working Joe here would be an 8:30 - 8:30, unless they're a civil servant of course!

Referring to unemployment...


> I'm not making light of it at all, I'm simply saying that those problems exist _everywhere_, not just Spain.


The problems do of course exist everywhere, but you just cannot compare the _*7.7%*_ unemployment of the UK to the tragic* 26.9%* of unemployment in Spain, which effects most Spanish families in some way today. 



> Tattoos are popular mainly with young people in general. They are already a major part of our culture in Europe, and many Spanish sportsmen and athletes who are based in Spain have them;





> Again, you can't really generalise. I'm an immigrant here and I have them. So does my partner, and our neighbours, who are here from the US & Belgium.


I agree that you can't generalise.
I've just come back from a barbecue with about 20 people, 4 foreigners all having lived in Spain for more than 25 years, the rest Spanish. 2 women in their 50's had tattoos, 2 men in their 20's had tattoos and 2 young women and 1 young man had body parts other than ears pierced.
I'm not sure why you have included photos of famous people living in Spain who have tattoos. Do you think they will be your customers?

I think you should try to give it a go, but beware that it will probably take time to establish yourself and that even then the going may be tough. The other day my daughter noticed that the place where she got a piercing done had reduced their prices and when she went 18 months ago it was already an offer. So make sure you've got plenty of back up money and somewhere to go if things don't work out.


----------



## baldilocks

mrypg9 said:


> Yes, some villages and towns in inland Andalucia and parts of Estremadura do resemble their counterparts in Morocco or Tunisia. I've said already that where we live although 34% are jobless 66% have work of a kind but the effect of that jobless 34% is very visible in the local economy.


Typical politician! Push the figures in the best light even if they are inaccurate. Ignore the "don't knows", those who don't fit in the opposite ends of the spectrum.

34% are *registered* unemployed does not mean 66% have work! The 66% who are not registered unemployed includes the disabled and unfit to be employed, those who are wealthy enough not to need to work and don't wish to work plus the unemployed who are not registered, not forgetting the "amas de casa"


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## baldilocks

I do wish people wouldn't post pictures that are so large that they go way off the edge of the screen especially of such revolting subjects. It make reading posts so difficult.


----------



## mrypg9

Sirtravelot said:


> Sorry, but I have to out you as the liar that you are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are no good restaurants in Glasgow.


Not so. To name a few:

La Bonne Auberge
Sarti Fratelli
Boozy Rouge

And more.

How well do you know Glasgow, I wonder?

The world's best fish and chips can be found in the nearby village of Bishopton.

Then there's Bellhaven....

So liar yourself.'


----------



## mrypg9

Have just noticed you are Glaswegian....you should stick up for your city!


----------



## Sirtravelot

mrypg9 said:


> Not so. To name a few:
> 
> La Bonne Auberge
> Sarti Fratelli
> Boozy Rouge
> 
> And more.
> 
> How well do you know Glasgow, I wonder?
> 
> The world's best fish and chips can be found in the nearby village of Bishopton.
> 
> Then there's Bellhaven....
> 
> So liar yourself.'


I've been past La Bonne Auberge, but I don't recognize the other two. I'll definitely make sure to try at least one of them out at some point. :clap2:

This may sound bad, but all the restaurants I've been to in Scotland have always left me disappointed. We've tried cheap restaurants, middle restaurants, and expensive restaurants. They don't compare to restaurants in Spain or Germany in my opinion, especially in price.

In fact, restaurants are what broke the camel's back for me. After coming home from a really bad Brazilian restaurant in Glasgow I had an epiphany about how Scotland wasn't the right country for me. xD



mrypg9 said:


> Have just noticed you are Glaswegian....you should stick up for your city!


I'm not born and bred in Glasgow, only been here for 3 years. Having said that, if anyone makes fun of Glasgow I can get pretty defensive and upset. There's something special about this city.


----------



## mrypg9

Sirtravelot said:


> I've been past La Bonne Auberge, but I don't recognize the other two. I'll definitely make sure to try at least one of them out at some point. :clap2:
> 
> This may sound bad, but all the restaurants I've been to in Scotland have always left me disappointed. We've tried cheap restaurants, middle restaurants, and expensive restaurants. They don't compare to restaurants in Spain or Germany in my opinion, especially in price.
> 
> In fact, restaurants are what broke the camel's back for me. After coming home from a really bad Brazilian restaurant in Glasgow I had an epiphany about how Scotland wasn't the right country for me. xD
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not born and bred in Glasgow, only been here for 3 years. Having said that, if anyone makes fun of Glasgow I can get pretty defensive and upset. There's something special about this city.


Yes,I agree. OH is Glaswegian born and bred. We had planned to retire there but the climate is too severe for me.

Do try those places i mentioned. Great food and good ambiance.


----------



## baldilocks

I found the best eateries either in the North of Aberdeenshire or on the very west coast near Skye.

First visit to Scotland we went unannounced to a little b&b that we found down a little side turning but, since we hadn't booked, the lady of the house said that she hadn't got much to offer for dinner so would poached salmon be all right. It was the most delicious salmon I have ever had in 72 years, Quite whether the "poached" was a dual use of the word, we never knew and weren't about to ask!


----------



## David1979

jojo said:


> Try it, make sure you have all the correct permissions and papers and give it a shot and let us know how you get on!
> 
> Jo xxx


I certainly will, thanks for the words of encouragement! 



Pesky Wesky said:


> I'm not sure why you have included photos of famous people living in Spain who have tattoos. Do you think they will be your customers?


Of course I don't, that would be ridiculous to think that. I was using them as an example to the poster in question, who I think doesn't understand how mainstream tattoos have become. The images were examples that not only shaven headed types who want skull tattoos are my potential customer base.



Pesky Wesky said:


> I think you should try to give it a go, but beware that it will probably take time to establish yourself and that even then the going may be tough. The other day my daughter noticed that the place where she got a piercing done had reduced their prices and when she went 18 months ago it was already an offer. So make sure you've got plenty of back up money and somewhere to go if things don't work out.


Everything you warned me of there is exactly the same issues and roadblocks I had to prepare for when I was working with my partner in Scotland. The same system that worked back home will work here, which is make sure you're in a decent location, that you have all of your paperwork in order (I hire someone to do that, I don't do it myself), that my staff are good at what they do, and that we provide a service that people will recommend to their friends.

My overheads and starting costs will be relatively low, and of course I have funds put away to last me the better part of a year if needed.



baldilocks said:


> I do wish people wouldn't post pictures that are so large that they go way off the edge of the screen especially of such revolting subjects.


Revolting subjects? How so?


----------



## jojo

baldilocks said:


> I do wish people wouldn't post pictures that are so large that they go way off the edge of the screen especially of such revolting subjects. It make reading posts so difficult.


Not attractive by any stretch are they - sorry, I'm not a lover of tattoos or those chaps who were covered in them.

Jo xxx


----------



## David1979

jojo said:


> Not attractive by any stretch are they - sorry, I'm not a lover of tattoos or those chaps who were covered in them.
> 
> Jo xxx


That's fair enough, but I'm not sure "revolting" is the word for people who have them to be honest.

Personally I've seen and experienced plenty of that kind of attitude both in the UK and abroad in the past. Thankfully it's dying out as younger generations grow up more open-minded and less judgemental than their elders.


----------



## jojo

David1979 said:


> That's fair enough, but I'm not sure "revolting" is the word for people who have them to be honest.
> 
> Personally I've seen and experienced plenty of that kind of attitude both in the UK and abroad in the past. Thankfully it's dying out as younger generations grow up more open-minded and less judgemental than their elders.


Interestingly, my daughters boyfriend is into tattoos and commented only today that apparently its a fad thats now dying out???? He's toying with the idea of having his removed - now maybe thats a service you could offer too???? - Is that feasible???

Jo xxx


----------



## 213979

Jo makes a good point. 

Two years ago a tattoo shop opened in my OH's Basque home town. The shop was filled and LA Ink was trendy on TV. Now, they have a sign out front advertising tattoo removal and the shop is no longer as full as it once was.


----------



## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> Interestingly, my daughters boyfriend is into tattoos and commented only today that apparently its a fad thats now dying out???? He's toying with the idea of having his removed - now maybe thats a service you could offer too???? - Is that feasible???
> 
> Jo xxx


a friend of mine had one removed & you can still see where it was .... she has a scar there, even after laser removal


----------



## baldilocks

I was friendly with a girl at one time who once had her boyfriend's name tattooed on her shoulder. She spent the rest of her short life trying to have it removed.

They were once the province of sailors and harlots and that is where they should remain. 

As well as tattoos, I am equally revolted when I see otherwise attractive young girls disfiguring themselves (especially faces) with various studs and ironwork - is it some sort of self-hate bordering on self destruction?


----------



## Navas

David1979 said:


> That's fair enough, but I'm not sure "revolting" is the word for people who have them to be honest.
> 
> Personally I've seen and experienced plenty of that kind of attitude both in the UK and abroad in the past. Thankfully it's dying out as younger generations grow up more open-minded and less judgemental than their elders.


If anyone thinks they're revolting, they are perfectly entitled to use that word to describe them, even if you don't agree. 

Each to their own. Personally, I really can't stand them! Call me judgemental if you like.


----------



## Navas

baldilocks said:


> I was friendly with a girl at one time who once had her boyfriend's name tattooed on her shoulder. She spent the rest of her short life trying to have it removed.
> 
> They were once the province of sailors and harlots and that is where they should remain.
> 
> As well as tattoos, I am equally revolted when I see otherwise attractive young girls disfiguring themselves (especially faces) with various studs and ironwork - is it some sort of self-hate bordering on self destruction?


Another fad. My eldest (the singer) had her belly button pierced in her teens and the younger one her nose and lower lip. I have no idea if the belly button piercing is still there, but I suspect it isn't, just as the nose and lip piercing have disappeared. I would say they're both older and wiser now but the older one has just dyed her hair carrot orange! 'Mid life crisis' a bit early perhaps?
Thankfully, my son's rebellion was growing his hair longer! I quite liked it like that


----------



## jojo

Navas said:


> Another fad. My eldest (the singer) had her belly button pierced in her teens and the younger one her nose and lower lip. I have no idea if the belly button piercing is still there, but I suspect it isn't, just as the nose and lip piercing have disappeared. I would say they're both older and wiser now but the older one has just dyed her hair carrot orange! 'Mid life crisis' a bit early perhaps?
> Thankfully, my son's rebellion was growing his hair longer! I quite liked it like that


My 16 yo has just dyed her hair pink and blue - she looks like a cuddly toy! When I was her age, I was a punk and had green hair - it just proves that these "fashion statements" are a fad and thank heavens that the green hair grew out - unlike getting rids of a tattoo lol!!!

Interestingly, ten years ago I lost a lot of weight and my older daughters said that if I reached 9 stone they'd treat me to a belly button piercing!!!! So I had one, however, I then had a tummy tuck and the piercing vanished. just as well, I'm too old now!

Jo xxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

Personally, I like a well done tattoo, on an ATTRACTIVE body, but too much is too much whether it be glitter, sequines, whiskey, makeup, body fat or tattoos.
I also believe that every fashion has its day and there's nothing sadder than a shop selling jackets with shoulder pads in the 21st century for example. 
We seem to be moving towards dilataciones (dilatations in English I suppose?) but this will surely last less than tattoos as it's more disfiguring. 
Exhibit 1. Baldi please avert eyes!










This might be more attractive...! 











And those implants that you can get put in?


----------



## jojo

Pesky Wesky said:


> Personally, I like a well done tattoo, on an ATTRACTIVE body, but too much is too much whether it be glitter, sequines, whiskey, makeup, body fat or tattoos.
> I also believe that every fashion has its day and there's nothing sadder than a shop selling jackets with shoulder pads in the 21st century for example.
> We seem to be moving towards dilataciones (dilatations in English I suppose?) but this will surely last less than tattoos as it's more disfiguring.
> Exhibit 1. Baldi please avert eyes!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This might be more attractive...!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And those implants that you can get put in?


How frightening is this - I've just shown Ruby, my daughter these pictures and apparently thats "unstoppable Paul" and Ruby says "he's well hot"!!!!!!!! What is he going to look like (with or without) in 20 years time!!!!

Jo xxxx


----------



## Pesky Wesky

jojo said:


> How frightening is this - I've just shown Ruby, my daughter these pictures and apparently thats "unstoppable Paul" and Ruby says "he's well hot"!!!!!!!! What is he going to look like (with or without) in 20 years time!!!!
> 
> Jo xxxx


Well, I think "unstoppable Paul" is very likely to be a poor old misfit who has somehow stumbled into the "hot" stakes.
I'd like to see him running for a bus with his ears down to his knees in his 40's though.
Not a pretty sight...

Yes, pretty frightening Jo!


----------



## Navas

jojo said:


> My 16 yo has just dyed her hair pink and blue - she looks like a cuddly toy! When I was her age, I was a punk and had green hair - it just proves that these "fashion statements" are a fad and thank heavens that the green hair grew out - unlike getting rids of a tattoo lol!!!


Trouble is, my daughter was 16 a _very_ long time ago! Hair grows though and colours come and go. 
Tattoos are a permanent statement though unless you get "temporary body art". Maybe that's another service David1979 could offer!


----------



## jojo

Navas said:


> Trouble is, my daughter was 16 a _very_ long time ago! Hair grows though and colours come and go.
> Tattoos are a permanent statement though unless you get "temporary body art". Maybe that's another service David1979 could offer!



Henna art. There are lots of those on the costas, little stalls along the promenades, portrate artists, hair braders, jewelry................

Jo xxx


----------



## Navas

Pesky Wesky said:


> Well, I think "unstoppable Paul" is very likely to be a poor old misfit who has somehow stumbled into the "hot" stakes.
> I'd like to see him running for a bus with his ears down to his knees in his 40's though.
> Not a pretty sight...
> 
> Yes, pretty frightening Jo!


He looks pretty revolting now - let alone in 20 years' time!


----------



## Navas

jojo said:


> Henna art. There are lots of those on the costas, little stalls along the promenades, portrate artists, hair braders, jewelry................
> 
> Jo xxx


Not sure it's just henna: Temporary Cosmetic Spray Tattoos | Iconic Body Art


----------



## David1979

Navas said:


> Tattoos are a permanent statement though unless you get "temporary body art". Maybe that's another service David1979 could offer!


Nah, I'll leave that kind of thing either to specialists in that field, or to jack of all trade types. I'll stick to what I know and what has worked for decades for many other owners of this type of business.

Anyway, I'll bow out now I think, as this thread has now got more than a hint of the "you never saw such nonsense in my day" about it. I'll let the oldies get on with it


----------



## mrypg9

It's not just an 'oldies' thing. Baldy is right, tattoos were seen as only for undesirable types and to some extent still are. Not everyone sees the likes of chavvy popstars and footballers as people to be admired or seen as role models for young people.
My dad and granddad had fairly discrete tattoos but they were working- class men who had served in the Army. My dad had a RAMC tattoo on his forearm, unit loyalty, I guess.
I don't mind small, unobtrusive tattoos but don't like acres of it on large bodies.
Incidentally, the one tattoo place in Estepona seems to have closed.


----------



## David1979

mrypg9 said:


> It's not just an 'oldies' thing. Baldy is right, tattoos were seen as only for undesirable types and to some extent still are.


Yes, by older people mainly, as I said. There aren't many young people who see someone with tattoos and thinks "undesirable". Sure, they may not be a fan of them or want any themselves, but the stigma is no longer there among the younger generation. They've become mainstream and accepted pretty much, with different types of people from all walks of life having them.

I've not been here long, but I've seen plenty of people with tattoos on their arms, legs and even necks down on the beach. Not British people either, I may add.



mrypg9 said:


> Incidentally, the one tattoo place in Estepona seems to have closed.


That'll be because tattoos are going out of fashion


----------



## mrypg9

Navas said:


> Another fad. My eldest (the singer) had her belly button pierced in her teens and the younger one her nose and lower lip. I have no idea if the belly button piercing is still there, but I suspect it isn't, just as the nose and lip piercing have disappeared. I would say they're both older and wiser now but the older one has just dyed her hair carrot orange! 'Mid life crisis' a bit early perhaps?
> Thankfully, my son's rebellion was growing his hair longer! I quite liked it like that


When he was sixteen,some decades ago, my son asked if he could have his ear pierced. My reply was that as long as he was living under my roof, the answer was No.
When he went to uni he went to live with his dad and came to visit sporting a stud in one ear. We had just got a new pup. Rob picked it up to cuddle it then yelled "he's swallowed my stud!'
We fell about laughing.
His dad, an unreconstructed Old Labour type, suggested we ask him what kind of handbag he would like to match his earwear...


----------



## mrypg9

David1979 said:


> Yes, by older people mainly, as I said. There aren't many young people who see someone with tattoos and thinks "undesirable". Sure, they may not be a fan of them or want any themselves, but the stigma is no longer there among the younger generation. They've become mainstream and accepted pretty much, with different types of people from all walks of life having them.
> 
> I've not been here long, but I've seen plenty of people with tattoos on their arms, legs and even necks down on the beach. Not British people either, I may add.
> 
> 
> That'll be because tattoos are going out of fashion


Thh, 
I think it's a class thing. My grandsons were public-school educated and none of their friends has piercings or tattoos . There are still some professions where that kind of body ornament, like any bling, is considered vulgar.
I'm not saying I approve but that's how it is.

I don't know whether tattoos are fashionable or not. Different groups in our societies have their own concept of what constitues fashion.
What goes down with the TOWIE crowd would be seen as distinctly un stylish by many...


----------



## David1979

mrypg9 said:


> Thh,
> I think it's a class thing. My grandsons were public-school educated and none of their friends has piercings or tattoos . There are still some professions where that kind of body ornament, like any bling, is considered vulgar.
> I'm not saying I approve but that's how it is.


Yes, that's true, but again, it's changing as the older generation disappear. It's the same with many things of course, such as gay marriage and suchlike, but that's for another thread.

Regardless, it is popular (and has been for many years now), and it won't be going away any time soon. Business in the UK as far as tattooing is good, as is business in both Italy and France, where I know two other shop owners. Spain will be no different. 

The various tattoo conventions held in this country every year are as popular as ever (if not more so).

You are correct in saying that different people have different opinions though. For example, I don't find tattoos or piercings vulgar, but I do find this kind of talk vulgar and outdated;



mrypg9 said:


> His dad, an unreconstructed Old Labour type, suggested we ask him what kind of handbag he would like to match his earwear...


To each their own I guess...


----------



## mrypg9

David1979 said:


> Yes, that's true, but again, it's changing as the older generation disappear. It's the same with many things of course, such as gay marriage and suchlike, but that's for another thread.
> 
> Regardless, it is popular (and has been for many years now), and it won't be going away any time soon. Business in the UK as far as tattooing is good, as is business in both Italy and France, where I know two other shop owners. Spain will be no different.
> 
> The various tattoo conventions held in this country every year are as popular as ever (if not more so).
> 
> Now, if I can just sort out my damn internet & television I'll be as happy as a pig in ****e, as they say!


I think class still matters in England, much more than in Scotland. It will take a long time to die out, if ever. There was a lot of fuss about 'undesirable' types turning up at Ascot, just one example.

We have Sky, mainly for football, don't intend to do anything until we have to. People have been speculating for months about what might happen.


----------



## David1979

mrypg9 said:


> I think class still matters in England, much more than in Scotland.


Possibly. Another good reason for independence I guess.



mrypg9 said:


> We have Sky, mainly for football, don't intend to do anything until we have to. People have been speculating for months about what might happen.


Yeah, I can't get Sky due to palm trees and other obstacles in the way of the dish


----------



## baldilocks

David1979 said:


> Possibly. Another good reason for independence I guess.


At least, you can spell it, so many would have spelled it with an 'a'




David1979 said:


> Yeah, I can't get Sky due to palm trees and other obstacles in the way of the dish


People in the UK also have trouble seeing the sky, but there, it is usually a cloud problem. 

As for tattoos and facial disfigurements I'm just a boring old f*rt but I can't help it, I was born that way and with only 15 days to go to 72, I guess, I've done ll the changing I am likely to do.


----------



## mrypg9

David1979 said:


> Possibly. Another good reason for independence I guess.
> 
> 
> Yeah, I can't get Sky due to palm trees and other obstacles in the way of the dish


Would palm trees make that much of a difference?

About the class thing...I was surprised to read that Andy Murray and Judy are Labour supporters..great pals with Labour donor Sir Alex..


----------



## David1979

mrypg9 said:


> Would palm trees make that much of a difference?


You can virtually reach over my terrace and touch them though, so they are quite close. The engineer said they would affect the signal from a dish.

Anyway, I think internet TV is the way forward with all of this talk about signals dying out and suchlike.

As for Andy Murray, who knows? I'm not a big fan of tennis, or nationalism for that matter either. All of my fellow Scots on Facebook were going mental about him winning even though they don't watch tennis at all any other time.


----------



## Mark L

Hi

i do read all the comments- and although i do agree with some negativity- there is also lots of positives too.

I too am looking to move to Marbella- up by the golf valley, ive visited 3 times this year doing research now- i'm a builder i hear the sighs now. but what i've learnt is this.

Yes its very difficult climate at the moment- but - some of it is also not what you know- but who you know.

You have to be prepared to take a few knock backs and not get down.

Be prepared to really work harder.

Keep away from the big drinking culture in ex pat areas- these people that are seeking the answers at the bottom of a gin and tonic will soon be the desolete ones.
Lots of hairdressers specially in centro plaza.... a stop uk hairdresser robert calvin opened a salon opposite la sala in banus- but soon shut cuz he was not hands on enough and was getting staff stealing.

But most importantly- stay focused..and choose one of these two words-- "luck or faith" admittedly we all need a bit of luck- but if you have no faith in yourself you will get no where.

Plus like me- i will give it a go and either way in years to come i wont be thinking " well what if" 

Good luck


----------



## Pesky Wesky

David1979 said:


> You are correct in saying that different people have different opinions though. For example, I don't find tattoos or piercings vulgar, but I do find this kind of talk vulgar and outdated;
> 
> : Originally Posted by *mrypg9*
> _His dad, an unreconstructed Old Labour type, suggested we ask him what kind of handbag he would like to match his earwear..._
> 
> 
> To each their own I guess...


I have to agree with this!

I am in Good Old Weston super Mare this week where you can see the epitome of bad tattoo results. Two days in a row I've seen a grossly overweight woman - about 5ft 1in and a size 24 - about 45 years old with tattoos covering both arms and up her neck amd chest so dense you can't make out what they are, with dyed black mohican. The look is topped off by gold round rimmed glasses.
Now either one of those fashion statements on its own would be fine, but I can assure you the sum result is not attractive to any one, except possibly herself, and perhaps that's all that matters, but I think this is the kind of tattoo customer that is lacking in Spain, older people who don't have beauty in mind but just want a tatt collection


----------



## JaneyO

Pesky Wesky said:


> I have to agree with this!
> 
> I am in Good Old Weston super Mare this week where you can see the epitome of bad tattoo results. Two days in a row I've seen a grossly overweight woman - about 5ft 1in and a size 24 - about 45 years old with tattoos covering both arms and up her neck amd chest so dense you can't make out what they are, with dyed black mohican. The look is topped off by gold round rimmed glasses.


Good old Weston -Super- Mud! The only problem with sunshine in Britain is it encourages the Brits to take their clothes off!


----------



## Pesky Wesky

JaneyO said:


> Good old Weston -Super- Mud! The only problem with sunshine in Britain is it encourages the Brits to take their clothes off!


Hahahaha!
That is funny !! And very true!! 
This is the first summer in years that I've not worn my Madrid winter coat during my time in WSM in the summer. I'm actually wearing shorts!!
Hmm thinking about what I wrote before, and your post too, maybe I'd better go upstairs and change to spare my poor family the sight!!


----------



## Madliz

I've just read through this thread and there is one difference between the UK and Spain that must be underlined. I don't believe that there are many households in Britain that have NO income. I lived in the UK when SKY TV arrived and it was the council houses that first grew appendages on their properties. Some UK friends who live only on benefits have iphones and Blackberries, not to mention Sky+ boxes. Sadly, they do not appreciate how lucky they are but never cease complaining about injustice!

I will not go into my personal situation but there are many households here that have nobody in employment and NO BENEFITS. This is the BIG difference here. There isn't the disposable income for luxuries any more, for many, not even for basics.


----------



## stevec2x

David1979 said:


> Possibly. Another good reason for independence I guess.
> 
> 
> Yeah, I can't get Sky due to palm trees and other obstacles in the way of the dish


If lack of a class system is a reason for independence then so is religious bigotry and and anti-English - racism. I've seen it first hand - though not from all Scots admittedly, I am shacked up with one!


----------



## David1979

Madliz said:


> I will not go into my personal situation but there are many households here that have nobody in employment and NO BENEFITS. This is the BIG difference here. There isn't the disposable income for luxuries any more, for many, not even for basics.


This is becoming a bit of a tedious debate to be honest, and is certainly wearing thin with me. Yes, there are a lot of unemployed people in Spain, and yes there isn't as much money floating around as there was in the past, but there are plenty of people in the various restaurants and cafes in my area virtually every night, and there are plenty of people in their 20's & 30's sporting tattoos on the beaches as well.

Again (and for the last time from me, which will please a lot of you), there are opportunities to be had in this country if you have something to offer the market, are prepared to work hard and have done your due diligence. 

If you're looking for a job, you'll find it very tough, that's true, especially if you don't speak the language.

I'm here now, I've got my plans in motion, I'm learning the language and I'm enjoying life a lot more at the moment than I ever did in the UK. I'm finding the cost of living to be much cheaper than it was back home, and I'm in no doubt I've made the right choice.

My advice for anyone who has plans to move here would be to seriously look at what you're leaving behind as far as a career, mortgage etc goes, and then look at what you are bringing to the Spanish market. If you do that and still think everything adds up in favour of a move, then go for it.

The truth is, the state of Spain isn't going to improve without people who are prepared to give it a bash, set up business, hire local people and start putting money back into the economy. If you think you can play a part in that, then jump in! The water is just fine where I am! 

With all due respect, many of the people offering me advice on business, the Spanish economy and even on tattoo culture are older and in many cases retired. Have you worked or run businesses here? If you have, then I'm more than willing to listen. Do you have experience with the tattoo industry? Have you run a tattoo shop? Do you even have tattoos? Or are your opinions made from a distance as you shake your head and sigh at us younger folks as we walk past with our torsos covered in them? 

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the advice and experience of those who have lived in Spain for a long time, and I have found a lot of information as far as day to day living goes. I'm thankful for everyone who's offered me advice (especially SAT when it comes to TV & internet!).

For those thinking of moving to Spain and setting up business in the area that I'm in, feel free to contact me via PM. I've not been here long, but I've investigated the Autonomo system (which has its advantages despite what you may read here and in other places), I've enlisted the services of an outstanding Abogado who is guiding me through the legal side of business in Spain, and would be more than willing to help where I can and exchange ideas and info!

To conclude, don't read too much into the negative posts on this forum! Take them on board for sure, but do your own research and come to your own conclusions!


----------



## webmarcos

David1979 said:


> This is becoming a bit of a tedious debate to be honest, and is certainly wearing thin with me. Yes, there are a lot of unemployed people in Spain, and yes there isn't as much money floating around as there was in the past, but there are plenty of people in the various restaurants and cafes in my area virtually every night, and there are plenty of people in their 20's & 30's sporting tattoos on the beaches as well.
> 
> Again (and for the last time from me, which will please a lot of you), there are opportunities to be had in this country if you have something to offer the market, are prepared to work hard and have done your due diligence.
> 
> If you're looking for a job, you'll find it very tough, that's true, especially if you don't speak the language.
> 
> I'm here now, I've got my plans in motion, I'm learning the language and I'm enjoying life a lot more at the moment than I ever did in the UK. I'm finding the cost of living to be much cheaper than it was back home, and I'm in no doubt I've made the right choice.
> 
> My advice for anyone who has plans to move here would be to seriously look at what you're leaving behind as far as a career, mortgage etc goes, and then look at what you are bringing to the Spanish market. If you do that and still think everything adds up in favour of a move, then go for it.
> 
> The truth is, the state of Spain isn't going to improve without people who are prepared to give it a bash, set up business, hire local people and start putting money back into the economy. If you think you can play a part in that, then jump in! The water is just fine where I am!
> 
> With all due respect, many of the people offering me advice on business, the Spanish economy and even on tattoo culture are older and in many cases retired. Have you worked or run businesses here? If you have, then I'm more than willing to listen. Do you have experience with the tattoo industry? Have you run a tattoo shop? Do you even have tattoos? Or are your opinions made from a distance as you shake your head and sigh at us younger folks as we walk past with our torsos covered in them?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the advice and experience of those who have lived in Spain for a long time, and I have found a lot of information as far as day to day living goes. I'm thankful for everyone who's offered me advice (especially SAT when it comes to TV & internet!).
> 
> For those thinking of moving to Spain and setting up business in the area that I'm in, feel free to contact me via PM. I've not been here long, but I've investigated the Autonomo system (which has its advantages despite what you may read here and in other places), I've enlisted the services of an outstanding Abogado who is guiding me through the legal side of business in Spain, and would be more than willing to help where I can and exchange ideas and info!
> 
> To conclude, don't read too much into the negative posts on this forum! Take them on board for sure, but do your own research and come to your own conclusions!


Excellent post - thank you!
I'm probably one of the "OLDER FOLK" but I'm investigating running a business (in my case it's in Madrid) and agree with your points, but I too acknowledge that it won't be a stroll in the park. Having said that I don't believe it's easy anywhere, and we all have to provide world-class service at a local level.
I'm the last person who will be knocking at your door and asking for a tattoo, but I know it's quite fashionable in yournger age-groups and I wish you all the best in your venture!


----------



## webmarcos

Another quote from Daivid1979



> Everything you warned me of there is exactly the same issues and roadblocks I had to prepare for when I was working with my partner in Scotland. The same system that worked back home will work here, which is make sure you're in a decent location, that you have all of your paperwork in order (I hire someone to do that, I don't do it myself), that my staff are good at what they do, and that we provide a service that people will recommend to their friends.
> 
> My overheads and starting costs will be relatively low, and of course I have funds put away to last me the better part of a year if needed.


Some very good points in there.
The one thing that has to be taken into account though are the high levels of tax and national insurance (by which I mean the autonomo fee). Now it's necessary, for example to pay for health treatment, but it does make it harder to make money from one's enterprise.


----------



## xabiaxica

webmarcos said:


> Another quote from Daivid1979
> 
> 
> 
> Some very good points in there.
> The one thing that has to be taken into account though are the high levels of tax and national insurance (by which I mean the autonomo fee). Now it's necessary, for example to pay for health treatment, but it does make it harder to make money from one's enterprise.


if you're paying autónomo then you can access state healthcare for free - although you do of course still have to pay for prescriptions


----------



## webmarcos

xabiachica said:


> if you're paying autónomo then you can access state healthcare for free - although you do of course still have to pay for prescriptions


Er yes, that was my point although I see I expressed it badly. I was making the point that although the autonomo fee was high, it does go towards positive outcomes such as state healthcare - although this isn't an instant entitlement?


----------



## xabiaxica

webmarcos said:


> Er yes, that was my point although I see I expressed it badly. I was making the point that although the autonomo fee was high, it does go towards positive outcomes such as state healthcare - although this isn't an instant entitlement?


yes it is - as soon as you are registered as autónomo & have your residency registration certificate & are on the padrón, you can get your SS number & register for state healthcare

not 'instant' maybe - but the paperchase can be done in one day if the offices are geographically convenient

certainly within a week


----------



## baldilocks

xabiachica said:


> yes it is - as soon as you are registered as autónomo & have your residency registration certificate & are on the padrón, you can get your SS number & register for state healthcare
> 
> not 'instant' maybe - but the paperchase can be done in one day if the offices are geographically convenient
> 
> certainly within a week


and the funcionarios not feeling bl**dy-minded.


----------



## xabiaxica

baldilocks said:


> and the funcionarios not feeling bl**dy-minded.


that goes without saying............ and of course it's nearly August............


----------



## mrypg9

stevec2x said:


> If lack of a class system is a reason for independence then so is religious bigotry and and anti-English - racism. I've seen it first hand - though not from all Scots admittedly, I am shacked up with one!


Ditto.


----------



## Stravinsky

David1979 said:


> Yes, by older people mainly, as I said. There aren't many young people who see someone with tattoos and thinks "undesirable".





David1979 said:


> Yes, that's true, but again, it's changing as the older generation disappear. It's the same with many things of course, such as gay marriage and suchlike, but that's for another thread.


I havent read through the rest of the thread. I wish you the very best of luck in your business venture, and that is coming from someone who has run businesses far far larger than you are likely to in the tattoo business. I would say though ...... don't dispel negative comment. If I had a € for everyone that had said what you said over my 7 years on these forums and then fallen foul of the Spanish economy or laws, well, I would have quite a few euros. As I said, good luck, but take the negative and the positive .... mix it all together and take the balanced view which is always best in business.

What I_ would _take issue with you over though are the above quoted comments. That may have been something maybe my fathers generation would have been guilty of, but for those of us that were bought up in the 50's and especially the 60's (that you no doubt class as "older generation") tatoos are not something new to us or anything that most of us (that I know) have any reservations about.

Some seem to think that anyone over their late fifties sit in armchairs and smoke pipes. Well, I can tell you that having recently returned from our 6th Rammstein concert and just booked for Alice in Chains for November ... all is alive and kicking in the (so called) aged who are still out there rocking . I think you'd be beter to revise your prejudiced view of age these days .. the old are getting younger


----------



## Pesky Wesky

David1979 said:


> This is becoming a bit of a tedious debate to be honest, and is certainly wearing thin with me. Yes, there are a lot of unemployed people in Spain, and yes there isn't as much money floating around as there was in the past, but there are plenty of people in the various restaurants and cafes in my area virtually every night, and there are plenty of people in their 20's & 30's sporting tattoos on the beaches as well.
> 
> Again (and for the last time from me, which will please a lot of you), there are opportunities to be had in this country if you have something to offer the market, are prepared to work hard and have done your due diligence.
> 
> If you're looking for a job, you'll find it very tough, that's true, especially if you don't speak the language.
> 
> I'm here now, I've got my plans in motion, I'm learning the language and I'm enjoying life a lot more at the moment than I ever did in the UK. I'm finding the cost of living to be much cheaper than it was back home, and I'm in no doubt I've made the right choice.
> 
> My advice for anyone who has plans to move here would be to seriously look at what you're leaving behind as far as a career, mortgage etc goes, and then look at what you are bringing to the Spanish market. If you do that and still think everything adds up in favour of a move, then go for it.
> 
> The truth is, the state of Spain isn't going to improve without people who are prepared to give it a bash, set up business, hire local people and start putting money back into the economy. If you think you can play a part in that, then jump in! The water is just fine where I am!
> 
> With all due respect, many of the people offering me advice on business, the Spanish economy and even on tattoo culture are older and in many cases retired. Have you worked or run businesses here? If you have, then I'm more than willing to listen. Do you have experience with the tattoo industry? Have you run a tattoo shop? Do you even have tattoos? Or are your opinions made from a distance as you shake your head and sigh at us younger folks as we walk past with our torsos covered in them?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the advice and experience of those who have lived in Spain for a long time, and I have found a lot of information as far as day to day living goes. I'm thankful for everyone who's offered me advice (especially SAT when it comes to TV & internet!).
> 
> For those thinking of moving to Spain and setting up business in the area that I'm in, feel free to contact me via PM. I've not been here long, but I've investigated the Autonomo system (which has its advantages despite what you may read here and in other places), I've enlisted the services of an outstanding Abogado who is guiding me through the legal side of business in Spain, and would be more than willing to help where I can and exchange ideas and info!
> 
> To conclude, don't read too much into the negative posts on this forum! Take them on board for sure, but do your own research and come to your own conclusions!


And with all due respect to you, you often often sound as if you're complaining about the advice given, but here you have spouted back the very advice that you and others have been given!
And I'd like to add, many of us are older, and/ or retired, many of us are middle aged and there are even, surprise surprise, some in our twenties and thirties! It doesn't really matter 'cos everyone has an opinion to give and more importantly many of us have experience of living in Spain and know its good points and its bad.
Which brings me to my last point, which was also your last point - negativity. As you say, some things on the forum can get tedious, and being told that my own experience, views and knowledge is negative is tedious to the point of boredom. I know about unemployment, reduced salaries, worsening conditions. I'm living it and seeing it. Am I supposed to write about the booming business, great contracts and strong businesses that I don't see????
There will always be people who will come to Spain and make a success of it. That depends on what you define by success, making money or living day to day in a lovely country, and it also depends on lots and lots of luck.
Glad that you have come over and hope you find what you are looking for - with or without my help.


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## David1979

Stravinsky said:


> I havent read through the rest of the thread. I wish you the very best of luck in your business venture, and that is coming from someone who has run businesses far far larger than you are likely to in the tattoo business. I would say though ...... don't dispel negative comment. If I had a € for everyone that had said what you said over my 7 years on these forums and then fallen foul of the Spanish economy or laws, well, I would have quite a few euros. As I said, good luck, but take the negative and the positive .... mix it all together and take the balanced view which is always best in business.


Oh, I do listen to and read all comments, and I do take them on board to an extent. It does have to be said though that there is an over-riding tone of negativity on this forum (cue the replies of "just being realistic, people don't want to hear the truth, not a bed of roses etc") which does paint a much bleaker picture than there needs to be.

Put it this way, before actually joining this forum I read through a lot of threads, like many other prospective members do I'd imagine. If I had taken on board all of the comments I'd read I'd have likely binned my idea of moving here before it even got started.

The impression I got purely from reading this forum was that Spain was up **** creek in a big way, that there's mass poverty & desperation, and that no one is spending money on anything but the very essentials. In short, anyone who isn't able to live comfortably without having to generate an income within the country should forget the idea of coming here.

Personally, I've found the situation to be a bit different, both during my research and during my set-up period that I'm currently going through. No doubt others will argue that I'm in the minority, that I'm lucky, that my circumstances are some sort of anomaly or whatever, but I'm simply calling it as I see it.

The way I see it, if you're coming here to look for work then you'll no doubt find it difficult. If you don't speak the language then even more so. If you're coming here with nothing in your pocket then you'll be struggling. All of which is true in most of Europe at the moment.

However, without people coming to places like Spain with the intention of starting up in business then we'll never see an end to the current financial situation that we face. We need business owners to flourish, we need them to employ local people, we need them to use local services and tradesmen and so on. I fall into the bracket of all of the above.

To say that Spain "isn't a bed of roses" is true to an extent, but when I find myself now waking up every morning and able to see the sea from my terrace, able to go running in the morning, able to go surfing, and generally experiencing a much better quality of life I personally don't even think the UK can come close in comparison.

Yes, it's important not to compare life here to a permanent holiday (as it certainly isn't that), but if someone is looking for somewhere they can work hard at their business and actually enjoy their free time more, then it's hard to fault the place.



Stravinsky said:


> What I_ would _take issue with you over though are the above quoted comments. That may have been something maybe my fathers generation would have been guilty of, but for those of us that were bought up in the 50's and especially the 60's (that you no doubt class as "older generation") tatoos are not something new to us or anything that most of us (that I know) have any reservations about.
> 
> Some seem to think that anyone over their late fifties sit in armchairs and smoke pipes. Well, I can tell you that having recently returned from our 6th Rammstein concert and just booked for Alice in Chains for November ... all is alive and kicking in the (so called) aged who are still out there rocking . I think you'd be beter to revise your prejudiced view of age these days .. the old are getting younger


I don't think that of all people over 50 (my parents certainly aren't like that), but it is true for a fair chunk of that demographic unfortunately.


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## David1979

Unfortunately, I feel as though my time here is almost up. It's pretty obvious that I'm not the best fit here, so I'll likely be taking my leave.

Best of luck to all, and special thanks to SAT for his invaluable advice on all things Sky and so on!


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## Stravinsky

David1979 said:


> Oh, I do listen to and read all comments, and I do take them on board to an extent. It does have to be said though that there is an over-riding tone of negativity on this forum (cue the replies of "just being realistic, people don't want to hear the truth, not a bed of roses etc") which does paint a much bleaker picture than there needs to be.
> 
> Put it this way, before actually joining this forum I read through a lot of threads, like many other prospective members do I'd imagine. If I had taken on board all of the comments I'd read I'd have likely binned my idea of moving here before it even got started.
> 
> The impression I got purely from reading this forum was that Spain was up **** creek in a big way, that there's mass poverty & desperation, and that no one is spending money on anything but the very essentials. In short, anyone who isn't able to live comfortably without having to generate an income within the country should forget the idea of coming here.
> 
> Personally, I've found the situation to be a bit different, both during my research and during my set-up period that I'm currently going through. No doubt others will argue that I'm in the minority, that I'm lucky, that my circumstances are some sort of anomaly or whatever, but I'm simply calling it as I see it.
> 
> The way I see it, if you're coming here to look for work then you'll no doubt find it difficult. If you don't speak the language then even more so. If you're coming here with nothing in your pocket then you'll be struggling. All of which is true in most of Europe at the moment.
> 
> However, without people coming to places like Spain with the intention of starting up in business then we'll never see an end to the current financial situation that we face. We need business owners to flourish, we need them to employ local people, we need them to use local services and tradesmen and so on. I fall into the bracket of all of the above.
> 
> To say that Spain "isn't a bed of roses" is true to an extent, but when I find myself now waking up every morning and able to see the sea from my terrace, able to go running in the morning, able to go surfing, and generally experiencing a much better quality of life I personally don't even think the UK can come close in comparison.
> 
> Yes, it's important not to compare life here to a permanent holiday (as it certainly isn't that), but if someone is looking for somewhere they can work hard at their business and actually enjoy their free time more, then it's hard to fault the place.
> 
> 
> I don't think that of all people over 50 (my parents certainly aren't like that), but it is true for a fair chunk of that demographic unfortunately.


Well thats all fair comment ... but I can honestly tell you that being in Spain for short periods can be significantly different to actually living here.

Ive loved Spain whilst I have been there (Ive just moved back to the UK). I think at the moment its a wonderful place to live for someone who is retired. You probably havent seen the desperation in some areas. Compared to 7 years ago Spain isnt the place it was right now for those that want to earn a living.

But you're right, you have to be positive when you are committing yourself to a business. The blue skies are wonderful when you move there, and the surfing I am sure will be great when you have finished your 12 hour day 6 day week working week. That's what it was like for me to start a business in the UK. I missed my daughter growing up. For you in Spain ..... its going to be ten times harder

However, as you so rightly say, if you make it then it will be great, but please please please don't keep chastising people for giving you a negative view of the country at the moment, because whatever you believe in your limited experience, things are not great there right now, and they are going to get a whole lot worse before they get better.

Again, good luck


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## Stravinsky

David1979 said:


> Unfortunately, I feel as though my time here is almost up. It's pretty obvious that I'm not the best fit here, so I'll likely be taking my leave.
> 
> Best of luck to all, and special thanks to SAT for his invaluable advice on all things Sky and so on!


No you are perfectly good here, its just that you dont like what you are hearing


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## Pesky Wesky

David1979 said:


> Unfortunately, I feel as though my time here is almost up. It's pretty obvious that I'm not the best fit here, so I'll likely be taking my leave.
> 
> Best of luck to all, and special thanks to SAT for his invaluable advice on all things Sky and so on!


To that I would ask why? 
With your posts the forum could possibly be better.
I'm sure that you'll agree that changing countries and setting up a business is challenging. You're doing it and you're doing it now - why not help others out and post about what it's really like instead of asking for advice that you don't really like anyway?


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## jojo

David1979 said:


> Oh, I do listen to and read all comments, and I do take them on board to an extent. It does have to be said though that there is an over-riding tone of negativity on this forum (cue the replies of "just being realistic, people don't want to hear the truth, not a bed of roses etc") which does paint a much bleaker picture than there needs to be.
> 
> Put it this way, before actually joining this forum I read through a lot of threads, like many other prospective members do I'd imagine. If I had taken on board all of the comments I'd read I'd have likely binned my idea of moving here before it even got started.
> 
> The impression I got purely from reading this forum was that Spain was up **** creek in a big way, that there's mass poverty & desperation, and that no one is spending money on anything but the very essentials. In short, anyone who isn't able to live comfortably without having to generate an income within the country should forget the idea of coming here.
> 
> Personally, I've found the situation to be a bit different, both during my research and during my set-up period that I'm currently going through. No doubt others will argue that I'm in the minority, that I'm lucky, that my circumstances are some sort of anomaly or whatever, but I'm simply calling it as I see it.
> 
> The way I see it, if you're coming here to look for work then you'll no doubt find it difficult. If you don't speak the language then even more so. If you're coming here with nothing in your pocket then you'll be struggling. All of which is true in most of Europe at the moment.
> 
> However, without people coming to places like Spain with the intention of starting up in business then we'll never see an end to the current financial situation that we face. We need business owners to flourish, we need them to employ local people, we need them to use local services and tradesmen and so on. I fall into the bracket of all of the above.
> 
> To say that Spain "isn't a bed of roses" is true to an extent, but when I find myself now waking up every morning and able to see the sea from my terrace, able to go running in the morning, able to go surfing, and generally experiencing a much better quality of life I personally don't even think the UK can come close in comparison.
> 
> Yes, it's important not to compare life here to a permanent holiday (as it certainly isn't that), but if someone is looking for somewhere they can work hard at their business and actually enjoy their free time more, then it's hard to fault the place.
> 
> 
> I don't think that of all people over 50 (my parents certainly aren't like that), but it is true for a fair chunk of that demographic unfortunately.


The problem is that there are many, many folk who really still think that they can move to Spain, clean a few pools, do a bit of villa cleaning and enjoy "the dream" - then there are those who think that starting a business is just a bit harder than doing the same in the UK, but doable if you have the right mind set.

Yes, as you acknowledge, the recession has changed all of that. So then the question is how do you make a business successful in Spain, when you dont know the rules, regulations, the language and are faced with the mass unemployment of your potential clients (remember theres no dole as there is in the UK)???..... and more to the point why do you think that we should be positive about people wanting to do this??? The way I see it, if you're determined, if you KNOW the pitfalls and are prepared for the "negatives", then you're more likely to succeed - so you've read the forum and you are now prepared!!!

How on earth can a forum give false information??? We have to be honest and "realistic" dont you think??? Imagine if we said "yay, its easy, come over" - how many disgruntled posters we'd have 

You could always come back when you're "doing it" and tell us how to be successful and make it work. You could be our "Mr Positive" and spread the word on how to make it happen - I for one would love to know. I'd be there in a heart beat!!!


Jo xxx


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## xabiaxica

do you remember 'miss big it up & be positive' property agent who was here a while back?


they're back in the UK....................


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## thrax

I don't recall that one but I note the OP hasn't replied since the first post. I haven't read through the entire thread coz it's likely to be more of the same etc but I would say to David you and your posts have been most welcome. On a forum like this folk are bound to have different ideas and experiences which is what makes it such a good and informative forum.


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## mrypg9

Any business that employs local people and contributes via using local suppliers, pays taxes etc, is welcome.
Yet most people who post on this Forum are involved in one-person businesses or employ very few people. All are in the service sector.
Wouldn't it be nice if an immigrant was prepared to invest a really large amount in a business that actually made things and gave skilled jobs to young people?


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