# Questions about Chalapa



## SubPar (Dec 16, 2008)

*Questions about Chapala*

I have been googling around, looking for information about the cities and neighborhoods around Lake Chapala, and I seem to have stumbled upon the proverbial mother lode here. I have noticed while browsing several threads tonight that there are quite a few expats living in/around Chapala posting, and I have a few questions.

First, here is my situation. My girlfriend and I are in our mid 20s, living in Washington, DC, and working for large non-profits. We have been mulling the possibility of moving abroad to work for smaller, more people-focused organizations or joining the Peace Corps. Unfortunately (fortunately?) I love my job more than anyone should be allowed to, and after a lot of thought, I decided that I just can't leave it.

Thankfully, I can do my job remotely, provided that I have internet access and a phone. My girlfriend and I recently hit upon the idea of moving to a small- or medium-sized town in roughly the same time zone as DC, where I can continue to do my job while she explores other possibilities, and we can volunteer or travel together on weekends. I would like to move to Oaxaca, but I think I am going to lose that argument.

After reading a lot about Guadalajara and Chapala, we've both decided that the area seems like a place we'd like. Obviously, we plan to spend a couple weeks visiting before making any decisions, but I'd like to get some of your perspectives on a few things.

I understand that there is a large contingent of retired expats living in the area. Are they concentrated in any particular neighborhoods? Generally, do the expats have a good command of Spanish, or do they mostly rely on other people speaking English? Are there parts of the area that are best suited for younger people? Is it fairly easy and cheap to get to Guadalajara (I'm thinking airport, here) without having to own a car? For that matter, is it generally practical to live without a car? Finally, can someone give me an idea of what we'd expect to pay for rent + bills monthly for a 2 bedroom house/condo/apartment (I understand electricity is expensive on a kw/h basis - we prefer open windows to A/C)?

My girlfriend won't be working, at least at the start, but I will be keeping my current job. I don't really know how the taxes and visa will work for me - does anyone have some guidance on where I can find that information, or some info from personal experience?

I have a pretty good command of conversational Spanish, having grown up in Texas and having studied it throughout high school and college. We've both lived abroad before (but only for about 4 months each) - me in Oaxaca and her in a smallish town in France. Are there any potential culture-shock landmines that we should be aware of when moving to Chapala?

Thanks in advance for your responses, and for bearing with my long post!


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

In order to stay, you will need to qualify for an FM3 Visa which requires proof of foreign income of about $1300 US per month per person. Sometimes, they will accept bank statements which show significant personal resources over several months. You will need a Mexican address and proof of residency at that address. Getting permission to work in Jalisco can be very difficult but online work based in the US and paid in the USA is a viable option. DSL is available at Lake Chapala.
Spanish will make living here more enjoyable, but it is not absolutely necessary.
Expats are in residence all along the north shore of Lake Chapala in towns, villages and developments. There are no 'purely expat enclaves'.
Taxi service to the airport costs about 280 pesos. Alternatively, one could take a bus to the highway exit for the airport and walk a mile to the terminal. There is no direct bus link from Chapala to the airport.
The requirement for the FM3 will give you a good estimate of the minimum cost of living.
You would be wise to visit for a few weeks before deciding to stay. Talking to long term residents will help a lot. Of course, you already know that there are few expats your age in the area.


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## verdeva (Sep 18, 2008)

*This is going to be very long, because you have asked some very good and distinct questions. Final word count: 10,000.*

Subpar wrote:
I have noticed while browsing several threads tonight that there are quite a few expats living in/around Chapala posting, and I have a few questions.
VerdeVa says:
The Lake Chapala area has the largest U.S./Canadian expat population in the world. Think more than 10,000 and less than 20,000, depending on the time of the year.

Subpar wrote:
First, here is my situation. My girlfriend and I are in our mid 20s, living in Washington, DC, and working for large non-profits. We have been mulling the possibility of moving abroad to work for smaller, more people-focused organizations or joining the Peace Corps. Unfortunately (fortunately?) I love my job more than anyone should be allowed to, and after a lot of thought, I decided that I just can't leave it.
VerdeVa says:
Regardless of your age, education or experience, neither you or your significant-other should figure on ever having "Mexican" job in Mexico. Mexico's unemployment rate is far higher than the U.S. and Mexicans have "first dibs." Positions for foreigners are almost non-existent and this includes Dr's, Dentists, Architects, Engineers, and other professionals. Wages are so low it makes minimum wage in the U.S. look like the upper middle class. Don't despair yet, read on.

Subpar wrote:
Thankfully, I can do my job remotely, provided that I have internet access and a phone. My girlfriend and I recently hit upon the idea of moving to a small- or medium-sized town in roughly the same time zone as DC, where I can continue to do my job while she explores other possibilities, and we can volunteer or travel together on weekends. I would like to move to Oaxaca, but I think I am going to lose that argument.
VerdeVa says:
That's the way to do it! Many folks earn a good living here via the Internet/phone. Most of Mexico is in the Central Time Zone. None of it is in the Eastern Time Zone. The exceptions are Sur Baja California, which is Pacific and a few States with small populations is in the Central Time Zone. Jalsico (Guadaljara/Chapala) and Mexico (State & the Federal District), are in the Central Time Zone. Still, one hour of difference with the East means you get to have an extra couple of cups of coffee before you begin your day.
Oaxaca? Think you need to do a lot of research before considering a move there.

Subpar wrote:
After reading a lot about Guadalajara and Chapala, we've both decided that the area seems like a place we'd like. Obviously, we plan to spend a couple weeks visiting before making any decisions, but I'd like to get some of your perspectives on a few things.
VerdeVa says:
With Guadalajara think New York and Chapala will be the Catskills with far better bus system and cheap taxis. The good news is they're just a short ride from one another. By car about 40 min., a bit longer by bus.

Subpar wrote:
I understand that there is a large contingent of retired expats living in the area. Are they concentrated in any particular neighborhoods? 
No. Some areas are more ****** than others and some areas may have only a few Gringos, but pretty much all neighborhoods are mixed. In some of the more upscale neighborhoods the homes that aren't owned by Gringos are owned by Tapatios; Guadalajarans that can afford a "Lake House."

Generally, do the expats have a good command of Spanish, or do they mostly rely on other people speaking English? 
My guess would be that less than 5% are conversant in Spanish, while 40% are in the Spanglish group. Those that are full-timers are more likely to take learning Spanish seriously than the large contingent of Snow Birds that are down for 4-6 months.

Are there parts of the area that are best suited for younger people? 
Tough question as there are relatively few foreigners here under 50+ years old. My guess would be no. The few younger folks I know live outside of the expensive neighborhoods. Here in Lakeside I know of couples/individuals of child bearing age that live in San Antonio, Riberas del Pilar, and Chapala. There are dozens of other communities/neighborhoods.

Is it fairly easy and cheap to get to Guadalajara (I'm thinking airport, here) without having to own a car? 
Yes, very easy and by my interpretation of "cheap" it is very reasonable. The more bus savvy you are the better it is.

For that matter, is it generally practical to live without a car?
A lot of folks either don't have a car or use it rarely. It gets back to what you are comfortable with. Some folks can't imagine walking a block to a grocery store and carrying back a couple of days of groceries. Others can't figure out why someone would want to drive a car a block to get groceries. There is little that you can't get to on a bus around here and if you've got a few extra Pesos you can take a taxi. In the town we live in, Jocotpec (far west Lake Chapala), I can reach any place for $15MXP or >$1.10US. To the doctor and back for $2.20US. We only use are vehicle for trips outside of town where we know we'll be loading it up.

Finally, can someone give me an idea of what we'd expect to pay for rent + bills monthly for a 2 bedroom house/condo/apartment (I understand electricity is expensive on a kw/h basis - we prefer open windows to A/C)?
Rent from $200-$1500US per mo., We pay $3250MXP, which last month equated to @$257US. It is unfurnished and very middle-class Mexican. Most renters we know pay $450-$850 for unfurnished and $500-$1200 furnished. You can spend much-much more.

Electricity if your not wasteful or have a pool, $10-$100. Until recently ours had averaged $50US per month, but we were kicked up to the DAC rate, "the excessive user rate." What CFE (local electrical provider) considers excessive would be considered low usage in the U.S., but they figure if you can afford all those gadgets that use electricity, you can afford to pay 50% more for it. It's their country, so it's kind of hard to argue.

Propane (for hot water/cooking), for this is no piped natural gas in Mexico, is relatively inexpensive. Daily you will hear "ZETA GAZ!" and you just flag them down if you need it. We spend $10=$15US a month.

Basic telephone is about $20US, but long distance can get expensive. There are plans which include ADSL and long distance minutes. Google TelMex more more info.

Internet is available almost everywhere, but not so High Speed. If Internet is critical to your making a buck you should have two providers as reliability is a big problem here. You need to make absolutely sure that High Speed access is available where you want to live. Many rental houses already have lines available, but again YOU MUST BE CERTAIN. Do not take "it'll be installed manaña" to mean you'll have Internet tomorrow. Manaña in Mexico means "not now," it does not mean tomorrow. A promise of installation by "?" rarely happens. We've been on a list for telephone line (not Internet) for a year and know others in the same boat.
CableModem through TeleCable is a good choice for a power user, AS LONG AS YOU HAVE A BACKUP PLAN. Being down for an hour, a day, or even 5 days is not unusual. TelMex's Infinitum Service, 1MB Down/120K Up, runs $600MXP/$45US including basic service and 200 min. National (not international) long distance. CyberCable is about the same, but is 2MB Down/1MB Up and includes basic TeleCable Cable TV.

My girlfriend won't be working, at least at the start, but I will be keeping my current job. I don't really know how the taxes and visa will work for me - does anyone have some guidance on where I can find that information, or some info from personal experience?
As long as you are paid by a U.S. employer the Mexican Government won't know/won't care. If you plan to make a couple of trips back north each year you'll probably want to get an FM3, Long Term Resident. If you plan to spend more than 5 years here you might consider an FM2 which allows to to have duel citizenship after 5 years. For citizenship you need conversational Spanish pass a Mexican "Civics" exam. In my opinion (which is worth every penny you have paid for it), the best thing to do is enter on an FMT, Tourist Visa (good for 6 months) and then begin the process of the FM3/2 here. Much easier to do here than at a consulate in the U.S. The first time through it's usually easier to use an agency to acquire the long term visa. Yearly renewals are quite easy to do on your own (IMHO.)

I have a pretty good command of conversational Spanish, having grown up in Texas and having studied it throughout high school and college. We've both lived abroad before (but only for about 4 months each) - me in Oaxaca and her in a smallish town in France. Are there any potential culture-shock landmines that we should be aware of when moving to Chapala?
Your ability to make yourself understood in Spanish will get you a long way. Cultural shock? For some it is huge and others poquito. Probably less shock than your experience in Oaxaca Common expat problems incude inability to converse in Spanish, difficulty in obtaining "normal" foods (no more Lean Cuisine), and alack of understanding of Mexican culture, e.g. manaña, stores open/closeg when they feel like it, just the laid back way of life. 

Thanks in advance for your responses, and for bearing with my long post![/QUOTE]

Por de nada, joven....
VerdeVA


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## pedro (May 15, 2007)

excellent post verdeva! some other things-if you like sports you can play volleyball 3 times a week and baseball twice a week. age range 20 something to 70 something. shortly a snowbird will be bringing down some hockey sticks so that we can play street hockey on the basketball court in cristiania park in chapala. a new after hours club has just opened here and fiestas are endless for entertainment on weekends chapala is packed with tapatios from guadalajara so lots of free concerts and other free entertainment.
culture shock-if you put yourself in a laidback mindset and don't have an aversion to lots of partying and noise- no.


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## verdeva (Sep 18, 2008)

pedro said:


> excellent post verdeva! some other things-if you like sports you can play volleyball 3 times a week and baseball twice a week. age range 20 something to 70 something. shortly a snowbird will be bringing down some hockey sticks so that we can play street hockey on the basketball court in cristiania park in chapala. a new after hours club has just opened here and fiestas are endless for entertainment on weekends chapala is packed with tapatios from guadalajara so lots of free concerts and other free entertainment.
> culture shock-if you put yourself in a laidback mindset and don't have an aversion to lots of partying and noise- no.


Yeah, you young folks have all the fun! 
VerdeVa

P.S. Pedro, figured out who this is yet?


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## pedro (May 15, 2007)

no phone-must be gimp


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## verdeva (Sep 18, 2008)

*You are so right!*



pedro said:


> no phone-must be gimp


Tah-Dah! Y'all have a wonderful Christmas Holiday and that's goes for the rest of you Gringos and ******-Wannbes.
VerdeVa
Jocotepec, Jalisco MX


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## synthia (Apr 18, 2007)

You have cell phones, right?


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## pedro (May 15, 2007)

sometimes telmex takes many mananas to hook your house up. we got ours done and dsl in 48 hrs through a mexican friend who knew somebody and it only cost me a $200p "tip".
originally telmex told me my infinitum may take 2 months.


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## verdeva (Sep 18, 2008)

synthia said:


> You have cell phones, right?


Cell phones, Fershure! After getting TeleCable installed & then CyberCable we saw no need for a land line. The only frustration is the cable going down. Still it's 3X as fast as Infinitum on download ad 20-30X as fast on uploading.


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## pameladelafield (Mar 10, 2008)

Verdeva wrote: CableModem through TeleCable is a good choice for a power user, AS LONG AS YOU HAVE A BACKUP PLAN. Being down for an hour, a day, or even 5 days is not unusual. TelMex's Infinitum Service, 1MB Down/120K Up, runs $600MXP/$45US including basic service and 200 min. National (not international) long distance. CyberCable is about the same, but is 2MB Down/1MB Up and includes basic TeleCable Cable TV.. 

Add to the Internet options the TelCel Banda 3G which can also be used as a celln independent phone and for iPods. I am on the South side and cannot get a phone line or I have to wait of months, so I got the cell internet service for $499 MX unlimited use from TelCel but it requires an 18 month contract. The only store that knows how to get it for you the fastest (or even knows about it) is the new TelCel outlet next to El Torito supermarket at Lake Chapala. Like a TelCel phone it can be used anywhere in Mexico where you can get a cell signal. Supposedly it is faster than DSL and more reliable.


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## verdeva (Sep 18, 2008)

> pameladelafield wrote:
> Add to the Internet options the TelCel Banda 3G which can also be used as a celln independent phone and for iPods. I am on the South side and cannot get a phone line or I have to wait of months, so I got the cell internet service for $499 MX unlimited use from TelCel but it requires an 18 month contract. The only store that knows how to get it for you the fastest (or even knows about it) is the new TelCel outlet next to Toritos. Like a TelCel phone it can be used anywhere in Mexico where you can get a cell signal. Supposedly it is faster than DSL and more reliable.


I'm very glad that you posted this information. I have been intrigued by the 3G option, but have been hesitant to make the plunge. If I had critical need to stay up, e.g. making money, then I'd probably go with CyberCable or Infinitum with 3G as a back up. Actually, if you're paying for both it's possible to set ones computer up to use both at the same time. Therefore, although somewhat expensive for the casual user, you could have 6Mb connection with a fall-back to 3Mb in case of failure of one of the systems.

Along with TelMex there is another outfit offering 3G in Jalisco and some other markets (but not all of Mexico), called IUSA. That's about all I know about 3G in Mexico.
VerdeVa


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## pameladelafield (Mar 10, 2008)

I was told that the IUSA 3G is $699 MX a month but I didn't verify that. I use the 3G because where I am there isn't an alternative internet service except for HughesNet which is $60 US a month. I have a HughesNet if anyone wants to buy it. The upside to the HughesNet is you can take it back up north to use.


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