# Catalan referendum called on 9th November



## Acuario (Sep 23, 2014)

Catalan premier Mas signs decree calling November independence referéndum as reported in El País which you can view on line.

http://elpais.com/elpais/2014/09/27/inenglish/1411807855_655737.html

Canvassing can start tomorrow.

As a foreigner living in Catalunya you can vote but it's not as easy for foreigners as it should be..

The Catalans obviously don't want foreigners to vote so it appears they are making it as difficult as posible.

To vote you previously need to register your intention to vote.

You need to provide:


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## Acuario (Sep 23, 2014)

...sorry but to provide the link to the voting document I need 5 posts so I'm splitting the post..


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## Acuario (Sep 23, 2014)

1.ID (Passport/NIE)


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## Acuario (Sep 23, 2014)

2.Document from the Ajuntament confirming you have been registered (empadronado) for the required time (one year for EU residents, three years for non-EU residents)


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## Acuario (Sep 23, 2014)

3.Request to vote


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## Acuario (Sep 23, 2014)

The request to vote document can be downloaded here:
http://www20.gencat.cat/docs/consulta/Documents/Arxius/VR1.pdf


This must all be presented to the 'comissió de seguiment' in your área and the time limit is between 1st and 8th October!

I suggest you ask your local Ajuntament where your 'comisión de seguiment' is.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Interesting BBC News item on the Catalan referendum decree signing today.
Which the Spanish Deputy Prime Minister has already declared unconstitutional
and will be taking the case to the countries constitutional court.


BBC News Catalan President signs decree for referendum on 9th November


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Williams2 said:


> Interesting BBC News item on the Catalan referendum decree signing today.
> Which the Spanish Deputy Prime Minister has already declared unconstitutional
> and will be taking the case to the countries constitutional court.
> 
> ...


I don't understand why, if it's a non-binding "we want to know what you want" vote, the central government is going to block it. It is the worst thing they could do. 

Let them vote. Let the "no" reign. Blocking the vote is only going to draw up more opposition to Madrid. :noidea:


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Thanks, Acuario, for posting all this info. It's important that all the foreigners living in Cataluña vote as well!


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## JamieLoco (Sep 27, 2014)

elenetxu said:


> I don't understand why, if it's a non-binding "we want to know what you want" vote, the central government is going to block it. It is the worst thing they could do.
> 
> Let them vote. Let the "no" reign. Blocking the vote is only going to draw up more opposition to Madrid. :noidea:


Well said my friend. I believe if Cataluña votes to leave Spain at some point Madrid needs to explore why the Catalan people want to commit economic suicide to leave Spain. There needs to be a compromise and it needs to come sooner rather than later. With a 25% unemployment rate does Spain need another "headache"?


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

I'm not sure being resident here for 12 months or even 3 years is enough to understand the deep feeling of resentment. It's not just about the recent recession, there's a lot of history. And if you've not lived here for long or at all it's hard to sense or understand it.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Helenameva said:


> I'm not sure being resident here for 12 months or even 3 years is enough to understand the deep feeling of resentment. It's not just about the recent recession, there's a lot of history. And if you've not lived here for long or at all it's hard to sense or understand it.


But that doesn't take away the fact that someone who lives in the region (and plans to live in the region) will be deeply affected by any decision that will be made. 

I lived in País Vasco for two years. I have Basque family. I would've been quite upset if País Vasco had a similar vote and I wasn't able to participate.

Voting is a very powerful tool, people. Don't let anyone take it away from you and don't waste it!


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## Acuario (Sep 23, 2014)

This is exactly why I have been keeping on top of the voting situation for foreigners.
I've lived in Catalunya for 9 1/2 years and don't have any plans to leave.

Independence will doubtless have huge implications for everyone in Catalunya and at least 13% of the population are not Spanish. It is important that these people, almost 1 million, have the right to decide for themselves if they want to live in or out of Spain.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

May I be so bold as to ask what you think, Acuario? After all, you're on the ground and you've been there for a while. If you don't want to answer, no worries. I just don't understand a lot of the news and I have my suspicions about Mas and his motives.


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## Acuario (Sep 23, 2014)

Personally I think it is a bad move. I understand the motivation that comes from a history of Catalunya being independent, being absorbed, becoming independent again then again losin Independence. It has been a turbulant history.

But we live in very different times. Independence is a romantic view of some and seen as a completely idiotic move by others. 

There are some (predominantly the younger generation) who say they are Catalan not Spanish. The older generation saythey are Spanish primarily and then Catalan. Why? Possibly because the administration has been brainwashing the younger generation for the last 20+ years in schools then universities. You may be interested to know that for the vote the age limit has been lowered from the usual 18 to 16 years. 

So what may happen if they do gain Independence:
- Barcelona FC: How long would it last? Playing in the Catalan league I doubt very long - it would go bankrupt. The Catalans seem to think it is so important it would continue in the Spanish league but how many teams from France and Portugal play in the Spanish league?
- Out of Europe. The Catalans seem to think they would be straight back in. The EU president has already stated 'no new countries for at least 5 years' and any entrant needs 100% support from the rest of the European countries - do you think Spain would say yes?
- Access to cheap money from the ECB - no. Money would be more expensive to borrow on the open market so prices would inevitably rise.
- Costs of operating multinationals would be higher as they would be operating in a different country. Result - Price rises.
- As in the Scottish case the Price of mobile calls and roaming would inevitably rise as they wouldn't be covered by the EU treaty.

.. and so the list goes on.

There are a lot of Catalans that are against Independence but you will note a lack of publicity or campaining - why? It seems that if you are against Independence you are seen as a 'bad Catalan'.

The majority of foreigners are against Independence too. Until the passing of the 'Llei deConsultes Populars no referendàries' law recently they were not allowed to vote - CIU, Esquerra and several other parties were against foreigners voting, probably for this reason. The only reason the law was changed in respect to foreigners was to allow Mas to demonstrate he was allowing democracy. However as you can see from what you have to do to be able to vote they are making it as difficult as posible.

There is a very large population of Moroccans in Catalunya and they are also against Independence so Mas is trying to bribe them by telling them that if Catalunya gains Independence they will teach Islam and Arabic education in the schools.
Cataluña offers Moroccans Arabic & Islam Education in Return for a 'Yes' in the Referendum | Morocco World News

So we will see.

I see on the news that the Spanish government are in the process of anulling the 'Llei deConsultes Populars no referendàries' and that this will then stop the referendium. The next few days will be interesting.


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

I wouldn't argue against what you are saying, but I know a lot of Catalans that would! Let them decide for themselves. If the Spanish government persist in trying to stop a referendum it makes them look really bad. Nobody likes bullies or being bullied.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Acuario said:


> So what may happen if they do gain Independence:
> - Barcelona FC: How long would it last? Playing in the Catalan league I doubt very long - it would go bankrupt. The Catalans seem to think it is so important it would continue in the Spanish league but how many teams from France and Portugal play in the Spanish league?
> 
> I see on the news that the Spanish government are in the process of anulling the 'Llei deConsultes Populars no referendàries' and that this will then stop the referendium. The next few days will be interesting.


Regarding Barcelona FC continuing to play in the Spanish league - I see nothing
to stop them doing that - particularly as they can always point to Berwick Rangers.
A football team from the English border town of Berwick upon Tweed - who have
always played in the Scottish league and would have continued to do so,
regardless of whether Scotland becomes an independent country or not.

I also agree that Rajoy and the Spanish government should allow the Catalans
to hold their referendum on the same grounds that Cameron allowed the 
Scots to vote for their referendum for independence under the Edinburgh agreement.
As chances are that when - push comes to shove - most people living in
Catalonia would prefer to remain part of Spain, rather than going it alone as an
independent country - with all the uncertainties that would bring.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Acuario said:


> Personally I think it is a bad move. I understand the motivation that comes from a history of Catalunya being independent, being absorbed, becoming independent again then again losin Independence. It has been a turbulant history.
> 
> But we live in very different times. Independence is a romantic view of some and seen as a completely idiotic move by others.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for sharing your views. It really helps to understand the situation!


MickBCN, if you're around, I'd love to hear what you have to say on the issue. What do you think about foreigners voting?


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## Acuario (Sep 23, 2014)

Williams2 said:


> I also agree that Rajoy and the Spanish government should allow the Catalans
> to hold their referendum on the same grounds that Cameron allowed the
> Scots to vote for their referendum for independence under the Edinburgh agreement.
> As chances are that when - push comes to shove - most people living in
> ...


Absolutely correct. It would be a tragedy if they do stop it as there is so much talk and movement that it has to happen and it really needs to be resolved.

If you are watching La Sexta El Objectivo at the moment then you will understand a bit more about it as Artur Mas is being interviewed and it's interesting hearing his views.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Helenameva said:


> I wouldn't argue against what you are saying, but I know a lot of Catalans that would! Let them decide for themselves. If the Spanish government persist in trying to stop a referendum it makes them look really bad. Nobody likes bullies or being bullied.


The central government is only making things worse. They've made a number of brilliant electoral moves recently but, in my opinion, they're really messing this one up.


I still very strongly say that foreigners living in Cataluña *should* vote. Just because I moved here (not Cataluña) six years ago doesn't make me any less invested in where I live. I hate not being able to vote here.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

elenetxu said:


> Thank you so much for sharing your views. It really helps to understand the situation!
> 
> 
> MickBCN, if you're around, I'd love to hear what you have to say on the issue. What do you think about foreigners voting?


As a democrat I think that all the persons who are living here in Catalonia must have the right of vote because for me they are catalan like me, whith the same rights like me...and if they vote SI-SI,then will be FANTASTIC!!!!)


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## olivefarmer (Oct 16, 2012)

Does anyone have the actual wording of the voting paper?

I can see a lot of parralells with the recent Scottish vote. Like the Scottish vote, will Catalans and others eligible to vote actually know the detail or will it be gut feeling e.g. yes I quite like the idea of us being a new country? For the record I believe there wasn't a single person who voted in the Scottish referendum that actually knew sufficient detail of what an Independent Scotland would actually mean or what greater devolution a No vote would give.

Every single Andalucian I have asked has been quite strongly No. Like rUK folk of course they will have no say. 

Good post Acuario.

_Mas says if it gains Independence they will teach Islam and Arabic education in the schools._ What a crackpot thing to offer. Multi culturalism doesn't work like that. I bet he will also offer Sharia law, the burka etc.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

mickbcn said:


> As a democrat I think that all the persons who are living here in Catalonia must have the right of vote because for me they are catalan like me, whith the same rights like me...and if they vote SI-SI,then will be FANTASTIC!!!!)


Thank you for sharing, Mick! Best of luck on November 9th!


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Acuario said:


> Personally I think it is a bad move. I understand the motivation that comes from a history of Catalunya being independent, being absorbed, becoming independent again then again losin Independence. It has been a turbulant history.


I'm not an expert on the history of Cataluña, but I don't think it was ever an independent nation. In the Middle Ages the Principality of Barcelona was part of the Crown of Aragon.


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## olivefarmer (Oct 16, 2012)

Good point especially as it is all to do with culture, identity, language etc.


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## Acuario (Sep 23, 2014)

Isla Verde said:


> I'm not an expert on the history of Cataluña, but I don't think it was ever an independent nation. In the Middle Ages the Principality of Barcelona was part of the Crown of Aragon.


A potted history..
Catalan history in 15 episodes | Catalonia Votes


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Acuario said:


> A potted history..
> Catalan history in 15 episodes | Catalonia Votes


A useful capsule history, which just reinforces the fact that Cataluña has never really been an independent nation for more than a few months at a time.


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## Helenameva (Aug 15, 2014)

Try Catalonia Infelix by E. Allison Peers, written by a Liverpool University professor in 1938. It's very interesting.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

there's an interesting article about the referendum here Issue 1 Barcelona Grapevine Magazine | Grapevine


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## olivefarmer (Oct 16, 2012)

Spain's Constitutional Court suspends Catalonia's independence referendum, planned for 9 November, after a request by the central government.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

olivefarmer said:


> Spain's Constitutional Court suspends Catalonia's independence referendum, planned for 9 November, after a request by the central government.


Yes, they have suspended the referendum as we expected,now I am sure that with this action we will get the independence before as we think,now there are thousands and thousands more independentists more than yesterday with this block ,thanks Spain!!!
12 judges can't decide for 7.500 000 of people.
In the next days until 9th of november,something will happend........


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

mickbcn said:


> Yes, they have suspended the referendum as we expected,now I am sure that with this action we will get the independence before as we think,now there are thousands and thousands more independentists more than yesterday with this block ,thanks Spain!!!
> 12 judges can't decide for 7.500 000 of people.
> In the next days until 9th of november,something will happend........


Mick, while I'm not fond of the idea of independence (sorry!!!), I think Spain made a big mistake in blocking a *non binding* referendum. Your side just won a big battle and, as you said, many more supporters!

Rajoy just shot himself in the foot, as we say.


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

What a pity, I wanted it to go ahead, as the majoriry would vote NO, and next day that A. Mas would have no option but to resign. Most people in Cataluña are from Andalucia/Extremadura (descendents too), so no chance of YES winning ever. 

pah!


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Lolito said:


> What a pity, I wanted it to go ahead, as the majoriry would vote NO, and next day that A. Mas would have no option but to resign. Most people in Cataluña *are from Andalucia/Extremadura (descendents too), so no chance of YES winning ever.*
> 
> pah!


I'm not so sure about that. Some of the biggest nationalists I know in País Vasco are second generation Gallegos or Burgaleses.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Lolito said:


> What a pity, I wanted it to go ahead, as the majoriry would vote NO, and next day that A. Mas would have no option but to resign. Most people in Cataluña are from Andalucia/Extremadura (descendents too), so no chance of YES winning ever.
> 
> pah!


Are you sure? then why the spanish government don't authorize the referendum?
In the last "sondeos" the votes for independence are near the 60%. mostly of this voters are from Andalucia.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

Lolito said:


> What a pity, I wanted it to go ahead, as the majoriry would vote NO, and next day that A. Mas would have no option but to resign. Most people in Cataluña are from Andalucia/Extremadura (descendents too), so no chance of YES winning ever.
> 
> pah!


Tell me are there any famous Catalan sports personalities, film or TV stars, charismatic
politicians or celebrities who favour independence from Spain ?


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Williams2 said:


> Tell me are there any famous Catalan sports personalities, film or TV stars, charismatic
> politicians or celebrities who favour independence from Spain ?


Are you being sarcastic or serious? It is tough to tell through text.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Jose Carreras
Pep Guardiola

To name but two. About the two highest profile Catalans there are.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

elenetxu said:


> Are you being sarcastic or serious? It is tough to tell through text.


No - particularly as were comparing the Catalan decision for a referendum on
Independence with the Scottish one.
As you know the SNP and the Yes campaign in Scotland fielded an impressive
array of stars, celebrities, business and sports personalities in their campaign for
Independence.

Everyone from Sean Connery to Brian Cox through to Andy Murray, etc and
of course the 'Better Together campaign' - fielded an equally impressive
array of stars, celebrities, etc for wanting Scotland to remain in the United
Kingdom.

Some of them also dug deep into their own pockets for the cause as well.

BBC News - Scottish Independence, what the celebrities been saying


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Williams2 said:


> No - particularly as were comparing the Catalan decision for a referendum on
> Independence with the Scottish one.
> As you know the SNP and the Yes campaign in Scotland fielded an impressive
> array of stars, celebrities, business and sports personalities in their campaign for
> ...


Ok, well, Pazcat just gave the answer I was going to give. You can't get much bigger than Guardiola.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Government of Catalonia - Government of Catalonia for those who want information about Catalonia not contaminated by the spanish media.


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## Acuario (Sep 23, 2014)

It is interesting talking to Catalans where I live in the south of Catalunya to hear their views. Two things that are very interesting that I'm hearing..

1. Jordi Pujol was seen as a father figure - someone who the Catalans looked up to for his morals and leadership. Now it has come to light that he was, like many politicians, possibly corrupt and taking back handers, many Catalans are totally despondant and have no faith in any politician. Santiago Segura (a Spanish film director if you didn't know) says that Pujol is to Independence what Urdangarin was to the monarchy.

2. The south is seen as the (excuse the term) ******* of Catalunya. Ironically it is where there is most support for Independence but the área most ignored. The feeling is that nothing will change here, investment in infrastructure etc. will be in Barcelona and our región will continue to be forgotten but controlled by Barcelona.

Regarding corruption et al. the statement, or it could be seen as a threat, by Pujol that if a branch falls from a tree it ends up with the tree falling (read if I go down then I will take the rest with me) has left quite an impression - we will see what happens in the days or weeks that follow.

I will be at the door of the 'Departamento de seguiment' in Tortosa tomorrow at 9am to register to vote, we'll see what happens....

Acuario


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Acuario said:


> It is interesting talking to Catalans where I live in the south of Catalunya to hear their views. Two things that are very interesting that I'm hearing..
> 
> 1. Jordi Pujol was seen as a father figure - someone who the Catalans looked up to for his morals and leadership. Now it has come to light that he was, like many politicians, possibly corrupt and taking back handers, many Catalans are totally despondant and have no faith in any politician. Santiago Segura (a Spanish film director if you didn't know) says that Pujol is to Independence what Urdangarin was to the monarchy.
> 
> ...


Let me put my tinfoil hat on... 

While I think the Pujol case was carefully orchestrated to come to light just before the issue of independence got hot, I think people will forget about Pujol and be terribly angry with Madrid instead. Madrid really messed up by saying no; people tend to be so hot-tempered that the last issue that came to light affects voting habits more than anything else. (See Aznar's failure just before Shoemaker was elected.)


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Acuario said:


> Personally I think it is a bad move. I understand the motivation that comes from a history of Catalunya being independent, being absorbed, becoming independent again then again losin Independence. It has been a turbulant history.
> 
> But we live in very different times. Independence is a romantic view of some and seen as a completely idiotic move by others.
> 
> ...


Yoy are using the tipical spanish propaganda,I can see that you are watching 13 tv ,tv1,tele5,el mundo la razon,abc etc etc etc.tipical spanish intoxicators.


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## Acuario (Sep 23, 2014)

mickbcn said:


> Yoy are using the tipical spanish propaganda,I can see that you are watching 13 tv ,tv1,tele5,el mundo la razon,abc etc etc etc.tipical spanish intoxicators.


No I am thinking for myself about the consequences and what benefits/disadvantages there would be in living in a small country outside of the EU. 

I would love to hear some of the benefits other than 'We won't be robbed by Madrid any more' which is about the only thing I do hear.

As a nationalist I would love to hear your arguments for Independence.

I did register today with the 'Comissio de seguiment' (although everything is officially suspended) so I will be able to vote in case everything starts again.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

elenetxu said:


> Madrid really messed up by saying no; people tend to be so hot-tempered that the last issue that came to light affects voting habits more than anything else. (See Aznar's failure just before Shoemaker was elected.)


To be fair Aznar did put the safety of the whole country at risk, and not for the first time either...


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## olivefarmer (Oct 16, 2012)

I too would be interested to know what the for and for that matter, the against arguments are. 

If parts of a country really would be better off being independent , then taken to its logical conclusion whats left would be poorer. e,g, the Uk would be a poorer place if London became independent. Maybe that is why I have yet to meet an Andalucian that thinks it is a good idea.

What I also struggle with is the likes of Catalunia have far more devolved powers, as I understand it, than say parts of the UK.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

olivefarmer said:


> I too would be interested to know what the for and for that matter, the against arguments are.
> 
> If parts of a country really would be better off being independent , then taken to its logical conclusion whats left would be poorer. e,g, the Uk would be a poorer place if London became independent. Maybe that is why I have yet to meet an Andalucian that thinks it is a good idea.
> 
> What I also struggle with is the likes of Catalunia have far more devolved powers, as I understand it, than say parts of the UK.


Catalonia in Contention - Harvard Political Review.
You have here one answer for the independence of Catalonia. NON CATALAN SOURCE!!


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## xgarb (May 6, 2011)

Some of the comments are suggesting it's a copy/paste/translate from other sources.

Also it's a blog post not a Harvard report.


As far as I understand it's part of Spain in the same way Cornwall is part of England. Some history of independence, it's own language etc but many years ago.

Personally I think we should all stick together. It might be true now that the region pays more to central government than it receives but maybe in 10 years the situation will be different.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

xgarb said:


> Some of the comments are suggesting it's a copy/paste/translate from other sources.
> 
> Also it's a blog post not a Harvard report.
> 
> ...


Since 1980 Catalonia have" paid " 220,000 milions of euros, enoug is enough, we don't want to wait 10 years more,we know too much the spanish governments, don't mind if they are socialist or PP, THEY ARE THE SAME SH....T, since 1986 Spain have received from Europe 100.000 milions in help to development. Catalonia have paid more than 2 times the help of Europe.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

But is not only for money that we want the independence, we want the independence for dignity, after hundreds of years receiving insults, atacking our language and culture,we are still waiting the return of hundreds of documents robed in the civil war for the Franco troops,(this don't have economical cost),they are trying to sufocate our economy blocking the mediterranean corridor that create problems with our economy and the economy of Valencia,Murcia and Andalucia,they know that if the corridor is operative then Madrid and the central area will be isolated, but this is not our problem,for this and hundreds and hundres of other reasons is that we want the independence NOW!!!!!


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## xgarb (May 6, 2011)

I don't know what the figures are (and they are probably so fiddled by the respective parties that it would be impossible to know) but do you not think it's normal for a wealthy part of a country to pay more than the less wealthy?

I used to live in Hertfordshire and I'm pretty sure there we losing more than gaining. In fact I'm thankful that the hospital I had to go to in Yorkshire and the Tourist Information in Northumberland were funded so I could use them.


Every part of Spain gets insulted for it's language/dialect and culture. Same as in the UK.


What are the documents and why are they refusing to return them?


The Mediterranean corridor.. is this a train link? You think that the people in Madrid hate the rest of Spain and they want to stop it developing to protect the centre? I've only been here three years but to me that sounds ludicrous.


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## Acuario (Sep 23, 2014)

mickbcn said:


> But is not only for money that we want the independence, we want the independence for dignity, after hundreds of years receiving insults, atacking our language and culture


I'm 100% in favour of a vote on Independence, democracy is fundamental.
As for Catalans and the population of Catalans living in Catalunya (and 'suffering' the above) it is interesting taking a look at Idescat. Anuari estadístic de Catalunya. Població. Per lloc de naixement. Comarques, àmbits i províncies

You find that:
There are 7.553.650 people in Catalunya of which:
1.325.663 were born abroad (the foreigners)
1.417.177 are Spanish, born outside of Catalunya
4.810.810 are Catalan by birth

So only just over 57% of the population of Catalunya are 'true' Catalans and not all of them want Independence. 

A vote would be very interesting.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Acuario said:


> So only just over 57% of the population of Catalunya are 'true' Catalans and not all of them want Independence.
> 
> A vote would be very interesting.


Which is why they are giving the vote to everyone


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

xgarb said:


> I don't know what the figures are (and they are probably so fiddled by the respective parties that it would be impossible to know) but do you not think it's normal for a wealthy part of a country to pay more than the less wealthy?
> 
> I used to live in Hertfordshire and I'm pretty sure there we losing more than gaining. In fact I'm thankful that the hospital I had to go to in Yorkshire and the Tourist Information in Northumberland were funded so I could use them.
> 
> ...


Yes is normal that the richest regions must help the poorest regions we agree with this but with limits, for example the richest region of Bayern in Germany are protesting because are helping with the 4% of his GDP,the poorest regions of Germany and this percent create problems with his economy because is exagerate and say that the reasonable is to help with 2%,Catalonia is expoliated with the 9%, and the receptors are in better conditions than the donors,for example the children of the schools of Extremadura receive one computer for child donated by the Extremadura government , or the older people of this region receive 400 euros as a gift, Or the andalucians rev¡ceive one pay called P.E.R.if they work few days in a year, catalans dont have nothing of this and many of us are in worst conditions than they.
The documents are known as Papeles de Salamanca, this documents was confiscated for the Franco regimen to the Catalan government and used to incriminate dozens of thousands of citizens and put they in front of fire squads (54.000 where asesinated until the end of the 50's) only for be leal to the legal regimen of the Republica, now the descendants of Franco are in the power).
Yes the mediterranean corridor is a train link,and i don't think that the people of Madrid hate the rest of Spain,But the governments of Spain yes, they are the 400 families that are in the power since 300 years ago,this governments dont let the peripherical regions grow for they Spain is only one with the center in Madrid and the regions of Catalonia ,Valencia and islands are lands asimilated and this must be for the centuries and centuries because we the catalan are rebels..


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

Acuario said:


> I'm 100% in favour of a vote on Independence, democracy is fundamental.
> As for Catalans and the population of Catalans living in Catalunya (and 'suffering' the above) it is interesting taking a look at Idescat. Anuari estadístic de Catalunya. Població. Per lloc de naixement. Comarques, àmbits i províncies
> 
> You find that:
> ...


Yes with the vote we will know what we want.IS VERY EASY AND DEMOCRATIC.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

xgarb said:


> I don't know what the figures are (and they are probably so fiddled by the respective parties that it would be impossible to know) but do you not think it's normal for a wealthy part of a country to pay more than the less wealthy?
> 
> I used to live in Hertfordshire and I'm pretty sure there we losing more than gaining. In fact I'm thankful that the hospital I had to go to in Yorkshire and the Tourist Information in Northumberland were funded so I could use them.
> 
> ...






Maybe your opinion about the conflict will change after see this video


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

mickbcn said:


> SPANISH SECRET CONFLICT [Documentary about Catalonia] - YouTube
> Maybe your opinion about the conflict will change after see this video


Thanks for posting that video, it was very interesting.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

xgarb said:


> Some of the comments are suggesting it's a copy/paste/translate from other sources.
> 
> Also it's a blog post not a Harvard report.
> 
> ...


Of course the EuroSceptics in the UK have been arguing for 'donkey years' ( well
at least as long as the UK has been part of the Common Market - now the EU )
that were being 'robbed by the bureaucrats in Brussels'


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Looks like it ain't happening now (or for the time being at least)


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

This A.Más, is not right in the head... lol !


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

I don't think so..


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

mickbcn said:


> I don't think so..


I thought about you when I heard the news. That must be disappointing. What are locals and nationalists saying about Mas right now? I would feel pretty betrayed.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

The _consulta_ was never going to happen. Mas said right at the start that he would not break the law, knowing full well that Madrid would have it declared illegal and inconstitutional. 

But he has succeeded in getting massive publicity and international sympathy because of Madrid's attitude - perfectly timed to compare and contrast the Catalan situation with the Scottish referendum.

The unofficial plebiscite, which will take place next month instead of the referendum, will give him a mandate to demonstrate to the world how Spain's pigheaded central government is ignoring the "will of the people".

Assuming that the vote goes the way he thinks it will, of course.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

elenetxu said:


> I thought about you when I heard the news. That must be disappointing. What are locals and nationalists saying about Mas right now? I would feel pretty betrayed.


We know that president Mas must fight against our common "enemy" the spanish government, they are the problem ,not our president, we will be next him until the victory,
if the spanish government block again this referendum the world will see what kind of governments are in Spain, then we will make "plebiscitarias" elecctions may be before february....and D.U.I, declaration unilateral of independence,..and bye bye Spain.


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## mickbcn (Feb 4, 2013)

BBC News - Independence vote: Catalonia's quarrel with Spain


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