# new zealand or canada



## neonesh

Hi, I have a PR for both Canada and New Zealand and would appreciate if someone who has lived in both countries provide some advice.

I have to choose between Toronto (Maple/Brampton) or Auckland. I from Fiji (an island in the pacific) and have a BSc degree, CCNA, etc with 4 years experience as a network engineer. What are my chances for having a satisfactory life?


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## hotweiss

Canada is a highly immigrant friendly country. Mind you, you might need to get re-trained or re-certified. Why not apply for a few jobs to see what their requirements are in Canada. I have a few friends with a computer overseas education, but they can't find jobs in their field. I even know many Canadians that have a Canadian computer education that can't find jobs in their field. Apply for positions in both countries and see how it goes. Your satisfactory life depends on what job you will get. Keep in mind that immigration is a gamble.


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## neonesh

Thanks for the reply. Yes most mosts seem to say that it is difficult getting jobs in Canada and then there is the re-certification and bridging courses.




hotweiss said:


> Canada is a highly immigrant friendly country. Mind you, you might need to get re-trained or re-certified. Why not apply for a few jobs to see what their requirements are in Canada. I have a few friends with a computer overseas education, but they can't find jobs in their field. I even know many Canadians that have a Canadian computer education that can't find jobs in their field. Apply for positions in both countries and see how it goes. Your satisfactory life depends on what job you will get. Keep in mind that immigration is a gamble.


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## topcat83

I'm currently sitting in a hotel in Lake Louise, Alberta, Canada (in the Rockies) - and can give you our perspective based on one and a half weeks split between a campervan and five star hotels! Just bear in mind (as at least one of our contributors is bound to remind you) that my heart is definitely in New Zealand. We have tried to keep to facts though.

Vancouver as a city reminded us very much of Auckland and Wellington - but the weather in May was way too cold for us. Apparently it rains a lot too. What was also off-putting was the line of beggars (one every 10 meters) along the pavement. A Canadian friend of ours says there are so many because Vancouver is the warmest city in the region, so all the homeless end up there or freezer to death! The British Columbia area has a local tax of 12%, which is added to everything on top of the country's service tax. If you eat out in Vancouver, add about 30% to the bill - a tip of 15% is expected on top. We found it expensive.

Our week in a campervan travelling the Rockies was less than perfect - a snowstorm at the end of May? And, although the scenery was beautiful, it is quite 'mono' - as my husband said after day 2, 'I'm not taking a photo of another bl**dy mountain with a lake and forests'. Our favourite place was definitely Jasper. Alberta has a local tax of 5%.

Our next stay was in Calgary. What a boring city! (sorry, Calgarians). And to give you an idea of the weather - we had a snow flurry, and there are walkways that run above the roads and through office blocks and hotels, so you don't have to go out into the cold in the winter. We needed to use these on our last day, as it was chucking it with rain.

Canadians are lovely, but many of them (if they can) head south for the winter. 

So - our opinion - sorry, the place is waaaaay too cold for us!


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## neonesh

Thanks Top Cat for the detailed info. If it is cold in May then i can just imagine in Jan/Feb.

Have you had conversations or any idea about the job market. From what I hear most immigrants initially find it difficult to get well paid jobs? Any stuff on Toronto?





topcat83 said:


> I'm currently sitting in a hotel in Lake Louise, Alberta, Canada (in the Rockies) - and can give you our perspective based on one and a half weeks split between a campervan and five star hotels! Just bear in mind (as at least one of our contributors is bound to remind you) that my heart is definitely in New Zealand. We have tried to keep to facts though.
> 
> Vancouver as a city reminded us very much of Auckland and Wellington - but the weather in May was way too cold for us. Apparently it rains a lot too. What was also off-putting was the line of beggars (one every 10 meters) along the pavement. A Canadian friend of ours says there are so many because Vancouver is the warmest city in the region, so all the homeless end up there or freezer to death! The British Columbia area has a local tax of 12%, which is added to everything on top of the country's service tax. If you eat out in Vancouver, add about 30% to the bill - a tip of 15% is expected on top. We found it expensive.
> 
> Our week in a campervan travelling the Rockies was less than perfect - a snowstorm at the end of May? And, although the scenery was beautiful, it is quite 'mono' - as my husband said after day 2, 'I'm not taking a photo of another bl**dy mountain with a lake and forests'. Our favourite place was definitely Jasper. Alberta has a local tax of 5%.
> 
> Our next stay was in Calgary. What a boring city! (sorry, Calgarians). And to give you an idea of the weather - we had a snow flurry, and there are walkways that run above the roads and through office blocks and hotels, so you don't have to go out into the cold in the winter. We needed to use these on our last day, as it was chucking it with rain.
> 
> Canadians are lovely, but many of them (if they can) head south for the winter.
> 
> So - our opinion - sorry, the place is waaaaay too cold for us!


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## topcat83

neonesh said:


> Thanks Top Cat for the detailed info. If it is cold in May then i can just imagine in Jan/Feb.
> 
> Have you had conversations or any idea about the job market. From what I hear most immigrants initially find it difficult to get well paid jobs? Any stuff on Toronto?


'fraid not. This is just a holiday, and we're not going near Toronto.

PS I'm sitting looking out of my hotel window at the moment - it's foggy, and snowing!!


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## ricks1088

neonesh said:


> Thanks Top Cat for the detailed info. If it is cold in May then i can just imagine in Jan/Feb.
> 
> Have you had conversations or any idea about the job market. From what I hear most immigrants initially find it difficult to get well paid jobs? Any stuff on Toronto?


Canadian job market is not doing very well at the moment. I am saying this for IT industry as I did extensive job search and market research with no luck. Same goes for some of my friends as well. Got a job in Australia but not in Montreal which is barely 70 miles from where I am sitting right now. 

High taxes, cold weather and bad IT market big no no for me.


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## CanadianGirl72

neonesh said:


> Hi, I have a PR for both Canada and New Zealand and would appreciate if someone who has lived in both countries provide some advice.
> 
> I have to choose between Toronto (Maple/Brampton) or Auckland. I from Fiji (an island in the pacific) and have a BSc degree, CCNA, etc with 4 years experience as a network engineer. What are my chances for having a satisfactory life?


I was born in Canada and came to New Zealand in 2003..I married my New Zealand born husband in 2004. 
New Zealand is a beautiful country, but we are now in the process of selling our house and moving back to Canada. The cost of living in NZ is VERY expensive- food, petrol, doctors, the list goes on.


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## CanadianGirl72

topcat83 said:


> I'm currently sitting in a hotel in Lake Louise, Alberta, Canada (in the Rockies) - and can give you our perspective based on one and a half weeks split between a campervan and five star hotels! Just bear in mind (as at least one of our contributors is bound to remind you) that my heart is definitely in New Zealand. We have tried to keep to facts though.
> 
> Vancouver as a city reminded us very much of Auckland and Wellington - but the weather in May was way too cold for us. Apparently it rains a lot too. What was also off-putting was the line of beggars (one every 10 meters) along the pavement. A Canadian friend of ours says there are so many because Vancouver is the warmest city in the region, so all the homeless end up there or freezer to death! The British Columbia area has a local tax of 12%, which is added to everything on top of the country's service tax. If you eat out in Vancouver, add about 30% to the bill - a tip of 15% is expected on top. We found it expensive.
> 
> Our week in a campervan travelling the Rockies was less than perfect - a snowstorm at the end of May? And, although the scenery was beautiful, it is quite 'mono' - as my husband said after day 2, 'I'm not taking a photo of another bl**dy mountain with a lake and forests'. Our favourite place was definitely Jasper. Alberta has a local tax of 5%.
> 
> Our next stay was in Calgary. What a boring city! (sorry, Calgarians). And to give you an idea of the weather - we had a snow flurry, and there are walkways that run above the roads and through office blocks and hotels, so you don't have to go out into the cold in the winter. We needed to use these on our last day, as it was chucking it with rain.
> 
> Canadians are lovely, but many of them (if they can) head south for the winter.
> 
> So - our opinion - sorry, the place is waaaaay too cold for us!


Canada can be cold in the winter- depending on what part you are in..the East side of Canada (Toronto) can be very chilly..I find winter here in NZ colder as the houses here are poorly insulated and dont have central heating.


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## topcat83

CanadianGirl72 said:


> Canada can be cold in the winter- depending on what part you are in..the East side of Canada (Toronto) can be very chilly..I find winter here in NZ colder as the houses here are poorly insulated and dont have central heating.


I'll say that _some_ houses here are poorly insulated and _some_ dont have central _or adequate _heating. 

Shop around and you will find many that are. Our house is toasty and warm as it is fully insulated, has double glazing, and has a wood fire and a heat pump.

But you're right - there are many that are not up to UK or Canadian standards.


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## Kiakaha_Chch

I agree with Canadian Girl,

The unemployment is far worse in New Zealand than Canada. Housing quality is better in Canada, and how on earth can you whine about mountains and forests TopCat? I don't know what its like in Toronto, and yes its rainy and cold in Canada but its the same in NZ, in winter.


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## inhamilton

Kiakaha_Chch said:


> I agree with Canadian Girl,
> 
> The unemployment is far worse in New Zealand than Canada. Housing quality is better in Canada, and how on earth can you whine about mountains and forests TopCat? I don't know what its like in Toronto, and yes its rainy and cold in Canada but its the same in NZ, in winter.


Actually the current unemployment rate in Canada is 7.3% and New Zealand is slightly lower at 6.8%.

In regards weather, I reckon it's hard to put NZ all in the same basket. Auckland weather is so very different to Dunedin.


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## CanadianGirl72

topcat83 said:


> I'll say that _some_ houses here are poorly insulated and _some_ dont have central _or adequate _heating.
> 
> Shop around and you will find many that are. Our house is toasty and warm as it is fully insulated, has double glazing, and has a wood fire and a heat pump.
> 
> But you're right - there are many that are not up to UK or Canadian standards.


Although I have been in NZ for nearly 9 years- I am still not used to all houses having central heating.


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## topcat83

Kiakaha_Chch said:


> I agree with Canadian Girl,
> 
> The unemployment is far worse in New Zealand than Canada. Housing quality is better in Canada, and how on earth can you whine about mountains and forests TopCat? I don't know what its like in Toronto, and yes its rainy and cold in Canada but its the same in NZ, in winter.


Lol! Sorry if it came across as whinging. Just our experience. I hope our post balanced out overall. Plus take into account there was a dose of good old fashioned British irony in there (as in 'Yeah, Right!). We loved the Canadian people too - they were so helpful, and friendly.

And I'm afraid that a NZ North Island winter just can't compare with what we experienced in late May in Lake Louise. Take today as an example - it's August (the equivalent to February in Canada or the UK) and today's high was 17 degrees C. Admittedly it was also tipping it down with rain overnight (30 mm) but today has been sunshine and showers.


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## topcat83

kaljames said:


> I think you will find that _most_ houses are poorly insulated and _most_ houses don't have central or even adequate heating.
> I have yet to come across any houses in NZ with central heating bar older houses like my grandma's old one (and that was un insulated) and you can't hardly call a single heat vent placed in the living room central air.
> 
> I've heard great things about Canada; might go visit one of these days.


I won't argue statistics - not worth it.
And we all know that there are some poorly insulated and heated houses in NZ.

But the point is that if people are warned (and I'd say that there are a handful of people on this forum who have taken it upon themselves to continuously repeat themselves on this point) then they can do something about it. When they're looking for somewhere to live, they can shop around and get a well insulated and heated house. Poorly insulated and heated houses are not compulsory. Most people on this Forum will have a choice about what they rent or buy.


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## carosapien

kaljames said:


> I think you will find that _most_ houses are poorly insulated and _most_ houses don't have central or even adequate heating.
> I have yet to come across any houses in NZ with central heating bar older houses like my grandma's old one (and that was un insulated) and you can't hardly call a single heat vent placed in the living room central air.
> 
> I've heard great things about Canada; might go visit one of these days.


I think you're correct when you say _most _houses are poorly insulated. There are an estimated 1.659 million households in New Zealand and a million of them don't have any insulation.

Dwelling and Household Estimates - Statistics New Zealand

Shivers: Minimum insulation standards a must (+competition) - National - NZ Herald News


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## topcat83

This is getting boring. How many more ways can you say that there are houses in New Zealand that are poorly insulated and poorly heated??

Move on. Others have.


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## topcat83

Boring. Move on. And if you are not happy in New Zealand I suggest you move on out.


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## Weta

topcat83 said:


> Boring. Move on. And if you are not happy in New Zealand I suggest you move on out.


Charming


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## AJ11

_[part of post deleted for insulting other members and quesioning moderators actions]_

I have never been to Canada myself. However, when migrating to any place (be it Canada or NZ), there is one over-arching requirement that you need to find out BEFORE you migrate: How well your skills will mesh into the local economy.

NZ is mainly an agricultural country. It has a massive agricultural sector and its dairy products are world famous. It, however, is lacking in many other fields. 

Manufacturing, in particular, is hardly even Third World. Do not expect many factory style jobs here, especially big, modern factories with modern equipment. 

IT is at best below average. Compared with Canada, the US, even Singapore, NZ is far, far behind.

NZ's economy is saturated with small businesses. Everyone wants to be a business owner and 97% of businesses in NZ are small and medium enterprises (SME). This is a statistic of which the kiwis are proud of (don't ask me why because from an economic point of view it is desperately stupid), but it does mean that there is a large turnover in small businesses. Remember that successful small businesses become larger ones, and if 97% of the country is STILL small businesses, it means that these businesses are started, fail, die and another starts in and endless cycle going nowhere. Also, please note that the definition of a small or medium business in NZ is whether it has 50 employees or not. In many developed nations, it would require employees in the hundreds, if not thousands, before they are considered out of the SME band.

Coupled with the fact that NZ's economy is about 10% of its closest significant neighbour, Australia, and the chances of starting a successful small business is close to nil. There is simply not enough of the economic pie to go around when it is divided 7 days to Sunday.

In other words, if you are skilled in primary industries or if you want to work for the NZ government, you might have a chance. If you are skilled in the technology sector or if you want to start your own business or if you want to climd in your career (remember that definition of SME as a guide as to how many levels you can climb before climbing becomes impossible because the only one above you is the owner of the business), you will find NZ wanting.

And without a job, there is nothing else you can do as survival will become a daily drudge. It is all a matter of what you are qualified in and what sort of comfort level do you require in order to be comfortable in life. If you are OK with the cold, if you don't mind working at the same level for the rest of your life (or if you are content with being a big fish in a tiny pond), if you like the scenery more than anything else, then yes, NZ is a place that you might want to consider.

If not, look elsewhere.


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## carosapien

kaljames said:


> That's just my opinion but as an intending immigrant (not to NZ) I don't want anything sugarcoated for me.


I wouldn't either, I'd like to know everything warts and all. Then I'd like to go and find out for myself. But it saves a lot of time and expense if you know what to look for right from the start.

It's very hard to know if a house is insulated properly just by looking at it and we don't always have the option of buying one if we're trying to live in a certain location. Why? because the houses just aren't available. 

Retrofitting insulation and installing heating isn't possible in many houses because the design means a major renovation is required it's not as simple as getting cavity wall insulation done. You have to remove plaster board walls, treat rot, install moisture barriers etc. That costs a great deal of money and you don't recoup it on the value of the house, nor does the increased fuel efficiency mean that it will pay for itself in a few years.

It's a complex problem.


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## Weta

carosapien said:


> Retrofitting insulation and installing heating isn't possible in many houses because the design means a major renovation is required it's not as simple as getting cavity wall insulation done. You have to remove plaster board walls, treat rot, install moisture barriers etc. That costs a great deal of money and you don't recoup it on the value of the house, nor does the increased fuel efficiency mean that it will pay for itself in a few years.
> 
> It's a complex problem.


It's also an expensive problem, we have a so-called insulated and fairly modern home (circa 2000). :Cry: It has some totally inadequate fluffy chewed up tissue stuff scattered sparsely in the loft, which apparently did meet with compliance (as does the tin-foil that is loosely tacked to the underfloor) at the time the house was built. 

We are just shy of a few months for the pre-1999 cut off and not eligible for any subsidy to upgrade this and have been quoted $2,800 to have pink-batts put in the loft over the top of what is already there. It will take a fairly heroic effort for us to pull together that kind of money.

I also doubt there is anything much between us and the outside world with regards wall insulation but we're not about to start ripping down walls to find out. There is only so much 'boring' homework one can do under the circumstances, we were under the impression and led to believe the house was insulated and that heating wouldn't be required in this sub-tropical climate. However, we were as green as, and had little understanding of the reality or how inadequate the insulation would prove to be. 

We bought our house in December but reality didn't strike until June and July when we were faced with crying windows and starting to notice the black mildew creeping in around the window frames and curtains. Much as it appeals, moving on out, isn't an option just now.


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## kiwiemma

Genuine question AJ11: if you don't like NZ - and I don't know how anyone could read your posts and think that you do - why *are* you here? Are Kiwis really the only nationality who would suggest that if an immigrant doesn't like their country, they should leave? I can't for the life of me see why that suggestion would cause offense. You have one life, you might as well spend it in a country you actually like.


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## AJ11

kiwiemma said:


> Genuine question AJ11: if you don't like NZ - and I don't know how anyone could read your posts and think that you do - why *are* you here? Are Kiwis really the only nationality who would suggest that if an immigrant doesn't like their country, they should leave? I can't for the life of me see why that suggestion would cause offense. You have one life, you might as well spend it in a country you actually like.


That is a good question, my friend. But if I may answer a question with a question: If you like NZ so much, why are you in the UK?

I suspect that our answers might be very different, but they would be enlightening to others reading this forum.


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## kiwiemma

I'm not . This forum won't let me change my profile because I'm made too few posts. I'm in NZ, I'm well aware of its flaws, and I'm considering emigrating. I've spent a lot of my life living outside NZ, so believe me I know what else the world has to offer. But I don't think your views of NZ are particularly balanced, and you're in good company. There are many users of this forum who appear to really despise living here. So why are they here?


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## AJ11

kiwiemma said:


> I'm not . This forum won't let me change my profile because I'm made too few posts. I'm in NZ, I'm well aware of its flaws, and I'm considering emigrating. I've spent a lot of my life living outside NZ, so believe me I know what else the world has to offer. But I don't think your views of NZ are particularly balanced, and you're in good company. There are many users of this forum who appear to really despise living here. So why are they here?


Really? I have the same number of posts as yourself, but I just became Lebenese :confused2:

Still, I am confused. _[disrespectful to another member]_. Yet you are considering leaving? Why? Is NZ that terrible? Or is it because you are taking your own advice and leaving because you truly find it detestable but are unable to admit it as it would somehow, in your mind, constitute treason?

Be as it may, I think you will find that many people are frustrated and angry at NZ because they were lured here under false pretences by the NZIS and others (especially kiwis online spruiking NZ).

In case you are unaware, migration costs money. A lot of it. For someone to spend their life savings to migrate only to find out a few months down the line that it was but the first of a line of conjobs is, you'd have to admit, galling to say the least.

You have to admit that forums where people are able to criticise NZ in peace is rather... limited. Most are in fact quite censorious where criticism of NZ is concerned. The angry migrants can't even vent in peace without some kiwi troll attacking them for it. Couple that with the frustrations of being conned, and even you'd have to see where the anger comes from.

Now, going back to the money part of the equation. We all know NZ has one of the highest costs of living in Australasia. It is coupled to an average wage that is is not near the highest in Australasia. This makes for a very low disposable income compared to other nations. In fact, I have heard (anecdotal evidence only, I hasten to add) that Malaysians have more normalised disposable income than kiwis. That is saying a lot, but what is relevant there is the fact that it is extremely difficult to save money in NZ.

Now, remember what I said about migration costing money? _[condescending comment removed]_ You will find that were you to offer those angry migrants an all expenses paid one-way trip out of NZ, they would be more than happy to take you up on your offer.

As for me, well, I went through the NZ school system, filled with wonderful graffiti in the school loos like "Gooks go home". Unfortunately, because of my NZ schooling, I find it difficult to get a job elsewhere because my math is pretty atrocious. Hell, I can't even add 349 and 432 without a calculator, nevermind doing multiplications. I have no concept of self-responsibility or discipline. I would prefer to work as little as possible without losing my job. If I don't watch myself, I would be wrting lke ths.

I do like a rousing game of cricket, though, but unfortunately, I didn't make the Black Caps selection. Ah well...

(And if anyone believed anything I wrote after "Gooks go home", I've got a bridge made of gold to sell you guys over in the US  )


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## topcat83

kiwiemma said:


> I'm not . This forum won't let me change my profile because I'm made too few posts. I'm in NZ, I'm well aware of its flaws, and I'm considering emigrating. I've spent a lot of my life living outside NZ, so believe me I know what else the world has to offer. But I don't think your views of NZ are particularly balanced, and you're in good company. There are many users of this forum who appear to really despise living here. So why are they here?


Hi Emma - You can change your profile. Go to 'User CP' then 'Your Control Panel' on the left hand side.

And a good point about why are they here in NZ - if I hated a country I'd get out. And then I wouldn't stay about whinging about it on this and other (so called) forums - I'd get on with life.

I think they like to play with us. Very sad, really. I wish they'd go back and play with the other sad people in their other sad forum, and leave us to present a more balanced view of New Zealand, with useful information.

I'm purposefully leaving most of AJ11's posts on here for a couple of reasons. 

1. So people can see that (contrary to the drivel that is written in their 'playpen' of a forum) I do not delete everything negative. I'd like to delete everything that this small group of troublemakers make, as I think it causes a massive and incorrect imbalance in what is posted here - but - that brings me up to reason number 2.

2. This group are shooting themselves in the foot. How can you have a _whole forum_ (their other 'playpen') that is dedicated to saying negative things about a country? (oh - and me, by the way. it's very amusing.) I think by leaving the majority of their posts on _this_ forum, people can see how unbalanced they are, and most well balanced people will choose to ignore what they are saying. They bury some elements of truth in otherwise rambling drivel. It's difficult to pick out the useful from the majority of the drivel, so most of us now just turn off to them. It gets very boring.


*I'd also like to remind people of how to add someone to your 'Ignore' list.*

This can be very useful if there's someone who's posts are really annoying you. If you do not want to see their posts or receive Private Messages and Emails from them, then you can add these members to your 'Ignore List'. You'll never have to read another one of their posts!

You can do this through your User Control Panel: Select User CP, Settings & Options, Edit Ignore List. Then, type their name into the empty text box and click 'Okay'.


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## jawnbc

OMG TopCat's posting wasn't 100% accurate. never thought I'd see that! :0 

Let me comment and correct a few things:



topcat83 said:


> Vancouver as a city reminded us very much of Auckland and Wellington - but the weather in May was way too cold for us. Apparently it rains a lot too. What was also off-putting was the line of beggars (one every 10 meters) along the pavement. A Canadian friend of ours says there are so many because Vancouver is the warmest city in the region, so all the homeless end up there or freezer to death! The British Columbia area has a local tax of 12%, which is added to everything on top of the country's service tax. If you eat out in Vancouver, add about 30% to the bill - a tip of 15% is expected on top. We found it expensive!


The 12% sales tax in BC includes the federal component--you don't pay "tax on tax" in BC or in most of Canada. You do in Québec though, where it works out closer to 16% overall. The federal GST is 5%; BC's provincial sales tax (PST) is currently 7%. 

For a resto bill taxes are a bit more complex. 12% applies to everything except liquor: the extra tax on your bills is probably the liquor tax for beer, wine or spirits. We do tip (for good service)...but that tends to ensure good service. Servers in BC get minimum wages, whereas in the US they often get less than the minimum wage because of their tips. On balance I don't mind tipping for good service. And certainly notice the difference when I travel overseas.

There are a lot of panhandlers in Canadian cities. Aside from the social reasons for this (addiction, mental illness with poor access to care) it's because in Canada we don't force our poor people to hide: they have rights like everyone else. 

The tragedy of Vancouver is that local officials let the real estate market go bonkers--it's now impossible for a young family in the city proper to buy a home without help from others. Rents are less affordable too. In the 1990s the West End was a great mix of rich, not so rich, but everyone had a good standard of living and intermingled. Now it's become more stratified and divided. One of the reasons I'm not as sad to be leaving.

Though I understand Auckland's nearly competing with Vancouver in the stoopid real estate price competition.


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## jawnbc

neonesh said:


> Hi, I have a PR for both Canada and New Zealand and would appreciate if someone who has lived in both countries provide some advice.
> 
> I have to choose between Toronto (Maple/Brampton) or Auckland. I from Fiji (an island in the pacific) and have a BSc degree, CCNA, etc with 4 years experience as a network engineer. What are my chances for having a satisfactory life?


I am about to move to NZ after living in the US, Canada, Australia, Canada (again). Have visited NZ many times and know what I"m getting myself into. 

Canada is a great country: robust economy, stunningly beautiful, awesome people. Compared to Europe or Australia taxes are low and many goods inexpensive: compared to the US taxes are high and goods are expensive. Taxes are similar to NZ. Healthcare system is awesome with two exceptions: Montréal and Toronto (overcrowding) and rural Canada (distance to services). Except for prescriptions, all medical (not dental) costs like hospitals and doctor visits are 100% covered with no out of pocket payment.

Winters are long. In Vancouver they're wet and dark: 6-7 hours of daylight, with dark grey skies for weeks at a time, highs of 7C and lows of 2C...snow is rare in the city itself. Across much of the country it's very cold: -20C isn't unusual and snow can start in October and end in April in many cities. Atlantic Canada has a shorter winter that features rain, snow, ice. Never boring. Summers are looong warm summer days: it gets over 30C in most the country except Vancouver (go 5km inland from the city, though, and it's very warm).

Vancouver is a migrant city: being bilingual is normal. Being South Asian or Asian or European or Aboriginal are all normal. Having international experience is considered a plus. I've not lived anywhere else in Canada.

One side note: my English husband had a difficult time getting his first job in Australia in 2001: everyone wanted him to have Aussie experience. When he arrived in Canada he found a great job within a couple of months--conversely it was his international experience that made him an attractive hire. He works in finance; I'm in higher education.


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## kiwiemma

Thanks TopCat, awesome advice . I couldn't update my profile before my little run of posts yesterday, I got a message saying that until I'd made 5 posts I was too new and couldn't edit it. Done now, and I think I'll retreat to the other country forums I was lurking on before!


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## topcat83

kiwiemma said:


> Thanks TopCat, awesome advice . I couldn't update my profile before my little run of posts yesterday, I got a message saying that until I'd made 5 posts I was too new and couldn't edit it. Done now, and I think I'll retreat to the other country forums I was lurking on before!


Lurk on ours as well though - we'd love to hear your experiences too.


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## AJ11

_[drivel deleted]_

And know these truths:
1. New Zealand is a nation of 4 million people. A significant portion of that are migrants. Compared to the 1.2 billion of China, the 1 billion of India, the 500 million of Europe or the 300 million of the US, we are insignificant in the grand scheme of things. We are not alone in this. Other nations have accepted their place and are content with it. They do not see the need to whiteant themselves to prove to the world they are somebody, when the truth is, the world won't even care if we lived or died. All it does is make us look like that little boy in the schoolyard yelling and carrying on like a baby while everyone around him just roll their eyes in embarrassment or exasperation.

2. New Zealand has a world-class dairy industry. That and all industries supporting that is well developed. If you are in those industries, then NZ may be a place for you.

3. NZ has great scenery. This is great if you are a tourist. For someone living here, chewing the scenery is for actors. Normal people starve if they try to eat the Milford Sound. So, please take this part of the typical NZ advertisement advisedly.

4. NZ is very poor infrastructure in general. This has been proven time and again with rolling power blackouts and brownouts, and our Internet connection is far behind most other nations outside of Africa. People seeking jobs in the IT and power industries better be aware of this. Roads are average in the major cities but are goat tracks out of them (compared to the likes of the US and Europe, that is).

5. It is cold here. And damp. I believe that only Chile extends further south than we do. Be prepared to face the cold, especially, as many others have pointed out, the housing standards here are much to be desired. If you have respiratory problems, this might make your condition worse (as any cold damp place might). NZ has one of the highest incidences of asthma per capita in the world.

6. NZ has one of the highest incidences of melanoma per capita in the world. Be prepared to either stay out of the sun or wear sunblock everywhere in summer. Even gardening in the sun could leave you with sunburn, and the sunburn can happen within 10mins depending on the day (there are announcements in the news as to what the next day's predicted burn time is, so watch it and take note of it).

7. In Auckland, some people make it a game to ask the taxi drivers where they come from and what they used to do. The number of people who are fully qualified engineers or medical doctors will astound you. I know of many Filipino doctors who are forced to work as nurses because their degrees are not recognised and they have to take a test. I have seen that test. It is Year 1 medical school stuff. An experienced doctor will not know that stuff because he would not have used it for years. It is a test designed to fail.

8. NZ's economy is 10% that of Australia. It has about 25% of the population of Australia. Think about the implications of that if you are thinking of opening a business in NZ. Think of the implications of that on the disposable income of the people in NZ and how that would affect your proposed business.

_[drivel deleted]_


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## inhamilton

AJ11 said:


> And know these truths:
> 1. New Zealand is a nation of 4 million people. A significant portion of that are migrants. Compared to the 1.2 billion of China, the 1 billion of India, the 500 million of Europe or the 300 million of the US, we are insignificant in the grand scheme of things. We are not alone in this. Other nations have accepted their place and are content with it. They do not see the need to whiteant themselves to prove to the world they are somebody, when the truth is, the world won't even care if we lived or died. All it does is make us look like that little boy in the schoolyard yelling and carrying on like a baby while everyone around him just roll their eyes in embarrassment or exasperation.


OK, I'm an NZer. Shoot me for it, but tell me where I am wrong with facts.
And the low population of NZ is a bad thing? It's not NZ that has legislation of one child per couple. China needs this. They are overcrowded. NZ is not. Great Britain has 65 million or so people in the same area as we have 4.5 million. Give me the insignificance any day, but that's me. Other people obviously have other ideas in terms of the ideal population density. If you like crowds, you can get them in Auckland, if you don't, go somewhere else in NZ. Auckland can have a crowds and traffic crawling to a standstill on the southern motorway as good as the next city, if that's what you want. The population is small, so that may make business harder, especially if its a niche product. But there are plenty of immigrants who do very well. And I can name some if you want.



AJ11 said:


> 2. New Zealand has a world-class dairy industry. That and all industries supporting that is well developed. If you are in those industries, then NZ may be a place for you.
> 
> 3. NZ has great scenery. This is great if you are a tourist. For someone living here, chewing the scenery is for actors. Normal people starve if they try to eat the Milford Sound. So, please take this part of the typical NZ advertisement advisedly.


This is a matter of opinion and taste. The thing about NZ, I think, is that living amongst nice scenery is achievable if you want to, and have the money to do so. 



AJ11 said:


> 4. NZ is very poor infrastructure in general. This has been proven time and again with rolling power blackouts and brownouts, and our Internet connection is far behind most other nations outside of Africa. People seeking jobs in the IT and power industries better be aware of this. Roads are average in the major cities but are goat tracks out of them (compared to the likes of the US and Europe, that is).


I've lived in the Waikato most of my life (and that is quite a considerable time), and I can't recall ever having a power blackout. There have been some after cars hitting power polls or something, but nothing that lasted the whole night, as far as I can recall. Auckland had one 5 or 6 years ago in the central city for about 1 week (was it?) when a large cable or something broke. Christchurch had one during the earthquake. What other power blackouts have there been?



AJ11 said:


> 5. It is cold here. And damp. I believe that only Chile extends further south than we do. Be prepared to face the cold, especially, as many others have pointed out, the housing standards here are much to be desired. If you have respiratory problems, this might make your condition worse (as any cold damp place might). NZ has one of the highest incidences of asthma per capita in the world.


Is it cold? It depends what part of the country you are talking about. In Auckland, the temperature rarely gets to freezing point (I can point you to the facts and figures if you like). Midwinter daily the high hovers around 15 degrees C. In Christchurch it is colder. Many frosts during winter, the the daily high hovers around 12 degrees or so. In Central Otago, it can really get cold. -6 or -7 degrees is not uncommon. 

Auckland is closer to the equator than Melbourne, and is on a par with Cape Town, Buenes Aires and Santiago. Argentina and Chile go further south than Dunedin. However, if comparing to Northern Hemisphere latitudes, Auckland is roughly the same distance from the equator as the South of Spain. 

So the degree of coldness depends on where in the country you are measuring it from. Being an island nation though, it is humid. I agree with you on this point, that if your house is not up to scratch it can get damp with crying windows etc. There are solutions though. Dehumidifiers can totally get rid of the dampness and huimidity and are relatively cheap to run. All houses built since 1979 are insulated through regulation, some more adequately than others. When buying a house, surely this needs to be something to check out before buying. I guess alot of the coldness you are talking about is the house issue. Hopefully NZ is getting better at that. All I know is that my house is perfectly warm, and I have no trouble keeping it dry, but perhaps thats just what I'm used to, I don't know.




AJ11 said:


> 6. NZ has one of the highest incidences of melanoma per capita in the world. Be prepared to either stay out of the sun or wear sunblock everywhere in summer. Even gardening in the sun could leave you with sunburn, and the sunburn can happen within 10mins depending on the day (there are announcements in the news as to what the next day's predicted burn time is, so watch it and take note of it).


You're probably right on that. But don't you also have to look at some of the positive things. For example, did you know that life expectancy at birth in Russia is 68.8 years and the life expectancy in NZ at birth is a healthy 80.4 years and one of the best in the world? Thats quite a significant difference (nearly 12 years extra). There are some diseases and so on that are more prevalent in NZ, and others that are less prevalent.



AJ11 said:


> 7. In Auckland, some people make it a game to ask the taxi drivers where they come from and what they used to do. The number of people who are fully qualified engineers or medical doctors will astound you. I know of many Filipino doctors who are forced to work as nurses because their degrees are not recognised and they have to take a test. I have seen that test. It is Year 1 medical school stuff. An experienced doctor will not know that stuff because he would not have used it for years. It is a test designed to fail.


That is a problem. I know of some cases of that myself. Yet at the GP practice I go to we have an Iraqi, a Sri Lankan, an NZ born of Chinese extraction and a NZ born European.



AJ11 said:


> 8. NZ's economy is 10% that of Australia. It has about 25% of the population of Australia. Think about the implications of that if you are thinking of opening a business in NZ. Think of the implications of that on the disposable income of the people in NZ and how that would affect your proposed business.


Not quite. NZ economy is 11% that of Australia and 20 % of the population. Your figures were not accurate there, but still a big difference with Australia nevertheless. NZ has the luxury of one of the most successful economies on it's doorstep. Excellent for trade. Also though, NZ's GDP per capita is roughly around the same as Great Britain. So if you are going to use that comparison with Australia as a measure of NZ's economy, you also have to say that NZ is doing as well as Great Britain (and far better than Russia).


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## jawnbc

AJ11 said:


> And know these truths:
> 7. In Auckland, some people make it a game to ask the taxi drivers where they come from and what they used to do. The number of people who are fully qualified engineers or medical doctors will astound you. I know of many Filipino doctors who are forced to work as nurses because their degrees are not recognised and they have to take a test. I have seen that test. It is Year 1 medical school stuff. An experienced doctor will not know that stuff because he would not have used it for years. It is a test designed to fail.


OK I HAVE to reply to this one: we hear this in Vancouver all the time: "we've got physicists with PhD driving cabs." Yes, yes we do. Also physicians, journalists, and cabdrivers. 

The point seems to be that these folks have been mislead about what it takes to work in those professions in countries like Canada or New Zealand. Sorry, that's THEIR fault. Every PhD I meet who complains about getting a faculty position here says nothing when I ask "how much have you published in your field, in English, in international journals?" Because that's what I, as someone who completed their studies in the US and Canada had to do to be at all competitive in the job market. "Publish or perish" is the mantra of academia. 

As for the physicians, they are also hypereducated and should be able to research what's required to become one in NZ or Canada. Lots of South African physicians have done what's required. It's doable. It means: 1.) not living in Auckland or Wellington or Christchurch initially, 2.) prepping for and passing exams, and 3.) working in a rural setting for a few years until fully licenced. Then they can live and work anywhere in NZ. 

The cold reality is that medical education in NZ, Australia, Canada and the UK is 90% of the time superior--and more difficult--than it is in the Philippines, India, Pakistan or Indonesia. 

Want to migrate? Do your homework, don't delude yourself. And get on with it.


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## topcat83

toadsurfer said:


> This forum is getting weird.


I have to agree with you, Toadsurfer, and all because of the actions of a small handful of weird posters who come onto this forum with the sole intention of making mischief.

It is my personal opinion that this particular handful of people have no intention of passing on 'useful information' to other immigrants. They are playing. A number of them are also members of another forum, which in my opinion is set up for the purpose of cyberbullying and spreading mischief. These are nasty, spiteful people. 
And to put it bluntly, I've had enough of their tiny ways. 

We aim to keep a balanced forum here, with both the good and the bad but genuine things about New Zealand posted so that new immigrants can make their mind up about whether it is the right country for them. I would hate for them to think that the posts from these trolls represents New Zealand accurately, or that people like them are the norm.

I have left most of AJ11,s post on here, as I think a couple of genuine posters have made a great job of replying to it. These are the kinds of members we do want - they answer with well thought out comments, and represent a balanced view. Many thanks to you - it can sometimes be very difficult moderating a forum and when I see people using it as it should be used (to help others know more about our country) it really helps.

I have no doubt that this post will find its way onto our trolls 'other forum', and I think that would be great! It will give them something else to tear to bits and chew over for a while.


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## inhamilton

jawnbc said:


> OK I HAVE to reply to this one: we hear this in Vancouver all the time: "we've got physicists with PhD driving cabs." Yes, yes we do. Also physicians, journalists, and cabdrivers.


I'm actually quite astounded that AJ believes it would be ok for someone unable to complete a first year New Zealand medical paper to treat our kids.


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## CanadianGirl72

kaljames said:


> I think you will find that _most_ houses are poorly insulated and _most_ houses don't have central or even adequate heating.
> I have yet to come across any houses in NZ with central heating bar older houses like my grandma's old one (and that was un insulated) and you can't hardly call a single heat vent placed in the living room central air.
> 
> I've heard great things about Canada; might go visit one of these days.


New Zealand is beautiful, but nothing beats Canada


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## topcat83

CanadianGirl72 said:


> New Zealand is beautiful, but nothing beats Canada


Ah patriotism. We all have it, and long may it continue. Although now officially an NZ citizen a corner of me will always be English too. Outside of London and the cities, and when the sun is shining, there are parts of England that are truly beautiful. A sunny April day with the daffodils in full bloom on the banks of the Thames at Marlowe - feeling quite nostalgic now!


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## CanadianGirl72

topcat83 said:


> Ah patriotism. We all have it, and long may it continue. Although now officially an NZ citizen a corner of me will always be English too. Outside of London and the cities, and when the sun is shining, there are parts of England that are truly beautiful. A sunny April day with the daffodils in full bloom on the banks of the Thames at Marlowe - feeling quite nostalgic now!


Aww..lol I do love New Zealand, but I could never find it in my heart to become a "citizen" so just stayed a resident. I consider myself very lucky to be from such a beautiful and wonderful country like Canada and live in a beautiful country like New Zealand- but it's time to go to where my heart is- Canada


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## cliche

topcat - I'm from the UK and fell in love with the South Island last year. Very early in this thread before all the ill feeling, you mentioned that you like Canada, but your heart is in NZ.
Can you say why ? I probably know why, but would like to hear your opinion.

Also happy for Canadiangirl for your input. My sister was a mountain instructor in Banff for 5 years before moving to Paris by the way

Please feel free to tell me to create a new thread if needed


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## klunman

Wow - seems strange to me that someone would consider living in Toronto over Auckland! Don't get me wrong, I love Canada and I there is no doubt Toronto offers fantastic food and cultural events…but Toronto? haha. Coming from a Western Canadian of course. It is REALLY cold in Toronto and you will have to live out in burbs but Canada is a sought after country without a doubt. 

We are loving living in New Zealand and have no immediate plans to return. We prefer the climate here, the accessibility to the outdoors, the laid back lifestyle and the stunning scenery. We prefer the education system here and our kids are so much more creative here, they really promote problem solving and creativity in NZ. Our kids play in the streets and generally play outside so much more. While the cost of living is higher, there is no 'keeping up with the joneses' so you actually spend less on "things" here. Not to mention, you don't have to have a BIG house or a BIG car. It is a simpler lifestyle true, and that does include 'simpler' homes. If you can sort out the heating issues, it is ok. 

Only you will be able to decide what is important to you- I can't imagine having to choose without going to explore both places!! Good luck!


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