# Urgent: Premium service Appointment on Monday



## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

Please help with my query below

My husband started self-employment in July 2015. Up until 5th April 2016, his self-employment income had been 30,000 after all expenses. He is still in self-employment.

is the income ok for the flrm application if we send one at the end of this month? I am confused in the guidance where it says “last full financial year”

my husband only started self-employment in July 2015 and at the time of application next he will have worked 10 months as self-employed (July 2015 –April 2016)

please advise
Sana Haq


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Recently UKVI has started rejecting applications with less than full year's account, so beware.


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

Joppa said:


> Recently UKVI has started rejecting applications with less than full year's account, so beware.


thanks for your reply


can you please check this link. this says ill be absolutely fine since the term "last full financial year" refers to the uk tax year 06 april 2015 to 05 april 2016 . i worked 9 months in this tax year and made 30,000


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

Joppa said:


> Recently UKVI has started rejecting applications with less than full year's account, so beware.



1st 4Immigration Blog: Adviser's Diary, Immigration News, Training for advisers and solicitors: Part 2 - How to calculate £18,600 income for self-employed for Spouse/Partner visa under the New Rules?


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

Your link is to an immigration advisor's site (Not UKVI) and dated 3 1/2 years ago. As Joppa said, they have recently been rejecting applicants using self-employment to meet the financial requirement without a full year of accounts.


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

nyclon said:


> Your link is to an immigration advisor's site (Not UKVI) and dated 3 1/2 years ago. As Joppa said, they have recently been rejecting applicants using self-employment to meet the financial requirement without a full year of accounts.


thanks for you reply


i do have a full year accounts certified by an accountant for the year ended 05 april 2016. the total profit after all expenses in this year is 30,000. however the work towards self employment only started in july 2015. does this matter or will this not be an issue because i did make 30,000 in the year ended 05 april 2016

please advise


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

9 months isn't a full year.


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

nyclon said:


> 9 months isn't a full year.



i agree but the word ‘full’ in the financial requirement guidance refers to the documents covering a financial year rather than a person working for a full year. With limited companies it would be an accounting year. However, in case of a Sole Trader or Partner he/she needs to show their tax returns showing earnings from self-employment being minimum £18,600 in the respective tax year, regardless of when during the tax year he/she started self-employment. For example, if a person registered as self-employed in August then his/her tax return would still be up to 5 April next year. If that tax return shows earnings of £18,600 from August to 5 April then it would be OK for a visa – since the person managed to earn £18,600 during the period August – 5 April.


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

They appear to be looking for a full year of accounts based on a full year of employment.


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

Hello Nyclon and Joppa

i have just spoken to ukba immigration helpline and they said i could combine my self employment with employment income


so from may 2015 to june 2015 i had two part time jobs and i made 1600 pounds from those two. then in july i started self employment and made 30,000 up until the end of tax year 2015 -2016. my tax year documents do show both incomes

i am applying for the wifes application in the mid of may.

will i be ok?

please advise


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

You still won't have been self-employed for a full year.


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

ok let me now give you my details in full.

i would be extremely grateful if you please advise me whether or not income is ok for flrm and which route shall we take. 

husband has ilr: 

Tax year 2015-2016:

he was unemployed in April 2015. From may 2015 till end of june 2015, he had two part time jobs and he made 1600 pounds from them. from july 2015 onwards, he left those part time jobs and went into self employment and made 30,000 till the end of tax year 2015-2016. he still is in self employment.

Wife is on appeal for a rejected flr fp application and idea is to withdraw this appeal before the hearing date and apply for fresh flrm.

wife job:

she started working on a 15000 a year job in November 2015. however in april 2016 her salary has been increased to 19000.

do we have a chance now if we apply for the wife in mid of May 2016.

is there any route possible to meet the income requirement?


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

Your safest option is to wait until your wife has been employed for 6 months earning at or above the requirement. You can't add your couple of months of part time employment onto self-employment to make a year's worth of employment.


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

Hello nyclon

please see page 58 of this ukba guidance point 9.3.6. its says we can combine self employment income with salaried income if it falls in the same financial year 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._FM_1_7_Financial_Requirement_August_2015.pdf


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

You are missing the point. You still haven't been self-employed for 1 year. The reason people combine employment with self-employment is because they need to combine the 2 incomes to achieve £18,600/year. You can't take 2 months of employment and 9 months of self-employment and claim that as a year of employment.


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

Joppa said:


> Recently UKVI has started rejecting applications with less than full year's account, so beware.


Hello Joppa and Nyclon

Hope you are well

I would be extremely grateful if you please advise me where it is written in guidance that self-employment has to be held for at least 12 months in order for it to be used in satisfying financial requirement for flrm application?

Last week I spoke to 3 different home office staff members on three different days. I told them about my case and all of them asked me to hold the telephone line for 5 to 10 minutes

They then went to senior supervisor for consultation and eventually they said I would be ok to apply for flrm and there is no requirement that you have to be registered for at least 12 months in self-employment with hmrc before you use that route to satisfy flrm.

I got exactly similar advice from 2 london based OISC registered advisers

I am really struggling to understand this

Please help me


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

Hello guys

i have spoken to UKBA helpline again today and once again they said i would ok to apply.

i think i didnt mention this to you guys that i have registered as sole trader and i am not operating as limited company. i guess the reason why you said that self employment must be held for at least a year to qualify for flrm was because that is valid only for limited companies but not sole trader. the financial year for sole trader is the last tax year which in my case is 2015-2016 and in that year i made 30,000 after expenses


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

If you are self-employed as a sole trader the same rules apply. 

Unfortunately, the UKVI helpline is run by a 3rd party who have been frequently known to give misleading and incorrect information. 

All we can tell you is that members have recently been refused for not having a full year's accounts based on a full year of employment when applying as self-employed.


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

thanks for your reply

please see below

From Annex FM 1.7:

"9.3. Self-employment or Director of a specified limited company in the UK – general requirements

For those self-employed as a sole trader, as a partner or in a franchise, the relevant financial year(s) will be that covered by the self-assessment tax return and in the UK this runs from 6 April to 5 April the following year. Where the applicant is relying on their partner‟s income from self-employment overseas, the relevant financial year(s) will reflect the requirements of the taxation system of that country.

For those employed as a director of a specified limited company in the UK, the relevant financial year(s) will be that covered by the Company Tax Return CT600 and corresponds to the 12-month accounting year of the company.

The evidence submitted must cover the relevant financial year(s) most recently ended.

If a person has different financial years, e.g. because they are both self-employed and a director of a specified limited company, their income from the self-assessment tax return and Company Tax Return financial years cannot be combined to meet the financial requirement. Including income from differently based financial years would not be a fair or accurate way of calculating a person‟s annual income."


please tell me where in the guidance it says that you must have been registered for at least 12 months as self employed with hmrc before you qualify.

the above clearly says that sole trader tax year runs from april to april and in the last financial year april 2015 to april 2016 i made over 30,000 pounds based on 9 month activity.

my accountant has done the following documents for me

1) Sole Trader Accounts for the year ended 5th April 2016;
2) Self-assessment Income Tax Return for the year ended 5th April 2016;
3) SA 302
4) Bank statements covering April 2015 to April 2016 
5) Proof of registration with HMRC

I dont understand where in guidance it says that self employment has to be held for 12 months at least? 

apologies for the bluntness in my tone


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

> The evidence submitted must *cover *the relevant financial year(s) most recently ended.


What it means is the business/self-employment must have *covered *the whole of the financial year, 6th April to 5th April, and not any random period within it. At least this is how UKVI has been interpreting the rules. If they mean your business activity must *fall *within the financial year, which is what you claim, they would say so.


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

thanks Joppa for your reply

i understand that ukba immigration helpline is through a 3rd party that is known for giving wrong advice. i myself have experienced this during the time i got ilr.

however if i am wrong then why the OISC registered advisers are also saying that my self employment would definitely work because i made more than the required amount in the last financial year irrespective of when i started self employment in that particular year.

i went to ukba website and took out 6 random london based OISC registered advisers all of them said the same thing including this OISC adviser who has specifically clarified this particular issue on their website 

"Does one have to be self-employed for a ‘full’ financial year? No, ‘full’ refers to the documents covering a financial year rather than a person working for a full year. With limited companies it would be an accounting year. However, in case of a Sole Trader or Partner he/she needs to show their tax returns showing earnings from self-employment being minimum £18,600 in the respective tax year, regardless of when during the tax year he/she started self-employment. For example, if a person registered as self-employed in August then his/her tax return would still be up to 5 April next year. If that tax return shows earnings of £18,600 from August to 5 April then it would be OK for a visa – since the person managed to earn £18,600 during the period August – 5 April" 1st 4Immigration Blog: Adviser's Diary, Immigration News, Training for advisers and solicitors: Part 2 - How to calculate £18,600 income for self-employed for Spouse/Partner visa under the New Rules?


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

Joppa said:


> What it means is the business/self-employment must have *covered *the whole of the financial year, 6th April to 5th April, and not any random period within it. At least this is how UKVI has been interpreting the rules. If they mean your business activity must *fall *within the financial year, which is what you claim, they would say so.


thanks for your reply Joppa. i highly appreciate it

i am getting very different advice here.

please tell me how shall i proceed.

i spoke to 6 different registered OISC advisers and all of them said i would be ok to apply because i made more than 18600 in the last financial year (april 15 to april 16) regardless of when i started work within that year.

see here. 1st 4Immigration Blog: Adviser's Diary, Immigration News, Training for advisers and solicitors: Part 2 - How to calculate £18,600 income for self-employed for Spouse/Partner visa under the New Rules?

another oisc registered adviser clearly saying that i would be ok.

please read the following in the link:

"Does one have to be self-employed for a ‘full’ financial year? No, ‘full’ refers to the documents covering a financial year rather than a person working for a full year. With limited companies it would be an accounting year. However, in case of a Sole Trader or Partner he/she needs to show their tax returns showing earnings from self-employment being minimum £18,600 in the respective tax year, regardless of when during the tax year he/she started self-employment. For example, if a person registered as self-employed in August then his/her tax return would still be up to 5 April next year. If that tax return shows earnings of £18,600 from August to 5 April then it would be OK for a visa – since the person managed to earn £18,600 during the period August – 5 April."

i understand that ukba helpline staff could be wrong because they are through 3rd party but how can it be possible that overwhelming number of oisc registered advisers make such a huge mistake in advising


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

We have explained to you that we have had members refused recently because they were not self-employed for a full year despite earning £18,600 or more in less than 12 months. Can any of those advisors show you proof of applicants who have recently (in the last month) been successful with less than a full year of employment?


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

thanks for your reply

yes you are right. they cant back it up with evidence because its likely they have never had such cases before.

so i guess my only option is to wait and apply in july and get the accounts made from july 15 to 30th june 2016?

is that correct


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

nyclon said:


> We have explained to you that we have had members refused recently because they were not self-employed for a full year despite earning £18,600 or more in less than 12 months. Can any of those advisors show you proof of applicants who have recently (in the last month) been successful with less than a full year of employment?


Hello Nyclon

thanks for your help.

i would be extremely grateful if you please provide a link of the case on this forum where a member was rejected because they were not self employed for full 12 months. i have tried to search for this but could not find anything


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

What professional advisors do, in order to solicit new business, is to give their own gloss (interpretation) on rules over which they have no first-hand experience. So having paid them £1,000 fee, you take them at face value and then find yourself being refused. They still keep the fees paid, they may offer to support you through appeal but it's you who lose out by gambling. 

Also about being in self-employment for less than a year. There has been a clear shift in attitude by Home Office in the last year or so. Up until 2014/15, some people have been approved with less than a year's self-employment, but we see increasingly Home Office taking a tough line and refusing such applications regardless of how much you have earned.


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

thanks very much Joppa for explaining this convoluted requirement

i think ill take my chance on the monday 9th May PEO and try my luck with what i have now and see what happens. ill update you guys on that

i just have 3 small questions.

1) right now i have all documents covering the period april 2015 - april 2016. i understand that i didn't work for full 12 months and still made over 30,000 but only 27000 of this 30,000 came in my bank account during that tax year. the rest came after 15th April 2016. this is because this is how my self employment payment cycle works where i get paid 3 weeks after the work done. is this ok (assuming if home office does not have any problem with my 9 month activity)

2) class 2 NIC is separate now because the rule has changed. i owe 9 months of class 2 nic in the tax year april 2015 - april 2016. i called tax office and they said i could still pay this separately and they will then credit my tax bill. shall i pay this then for 9 months to provide evidence for continues self employment?

3) if i dont go for monday PEO then can i wait until july and then send the application with the accounts from july 15 to 30 june 2016. would this 3rd option be ok for me

please answer these and thanks for bearing with me.

apologies for my blunt tone


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

I would go for #3 option. You *may *be approved with less than a year's self-employment or you may not. There is no question of not being accepted when you go for #3.


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

Joppa said:


> I would go for #3 option. You *may *be approved with less than a year's self-employment or you may not. There is no question of not being accepted when you go for #3.


thanks Joppa

i understand option 3 and the risks. 

could you please also comment on the other 2 points as well? (lets assume HO wont raise any issue on 9 month activity)


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

Hello Joppa and Nyclon

i have found a solution i think based on the advice of my accountant. 

the activity of my business did start in july 2015. however before this i was working part time on job but i had every intention to work as self employed person as well. there was no activity because i did not find work. 

based on that cant i ask my accountant to make accounts from april 2015 to april 2016?

i understand there was no work from april to june because i didnt find any work but from july the activity started?


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

guys i have attached this picture of my tax return form.

my accountant said i could change box 6 date as april in order to have accounts from april to april.

is that gonna work?


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

I can't open your image but is unlikely to work. They want evidence you have been trading for a year, such as registering as self-employed with HMRC, invoices for 12 months, a year's bank statement etc.


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

can i please email you the image? how else can i send you this?

i registered with hmrc in july but there is no requirement to register as soon as business starts. its possible i started in april but registered in july

in self employment, the payments for the work sometimes take long and they do not always reach on time unlike in paid employment. so although i did earn 30,000 in 2015-2016 tax year but i only received 27000 in my bank account because it takes time to process payments

in the financial guidance, they have not asked for invoices to be submitted.

let me know what you think


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

see here it clearly says that its not a requirement to register asap when you start business

https://www.gov.uk/set-up-sole-trader/register


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

HMRC isn't the Home Office.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

The fact is, you haven't been trading a year, so are you trying to deceive Home Office in believing you have?
Why don't you just give up thinking of ruses, and just apply when you have been trading a year?


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## nyclon (Apr 3, 2011)

In addition to everything that has already been said in support of waiting until you actually meet the financial requirement before applying, since you have already been refused a visa and are appealing you will be wasting money on a premium appointment. They strongly recommend that you don't book a premium appointment if you've had a previous refusal. Since they will need to further investigate the reasons for refusal, it's highly unlikely that they will be able to make a decision on the day of the appointment so you will left with no answer and possibly months of waiting.


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

thanks nyclon

actually my wife is on appeal because of a rejected flrfp application. 

however our intention is to withdraw this appeal and apply for fresh flrm.

lets assume my self employment wont be a problem, do you still think its not worth taking premium appointment for a fresh flrm? HOME OFFICE has had her passports and they have kept it since last year when they rejected her flr fp and gave us the option to appeal

we applied for flr fp at that time because we did not have any income to meet for flrm


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

th


Joppa said:


> The fact is, you haven't been trading a year, so are you trying to deceive Home Office in believing you have?
> Why don't you just give up thinking of ruses, and just apply when you have been trading a year?



you are correct Joppa.

however time is of the essence. 

i cant wait till july when i have completed 12 months. this is because her appeal hearing date is on 6th may and we have to withdraw this appeal tomorrow on 29th and go for PEO to apply for fresh flrm on monday 9th may. once she withdraws appeal she will only have 28 days to apply for new application.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

I think it's not going to work, Home Office will retain her passport and start to take steps to remove her.
Has her current visa expired, or when will it expire? She won't be allowed to make a fresh application after she withdraws her appeal when her Section 3A leave will end.


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

she is currently on section 3C leave and she is allowed to make fresh application only if she withdraws her appeal.

she will become an over stayer the moment she withdraws her appeal but home office does accept fresh application if it is filed under 28 days.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

No. The 28-grace period only starts when the Section 3C leave expires, but not when the appeal is withdrawn by the appellant. Then there is no grace period. This is an important distinction in law, specified under section 102 of 2002 immigration act.


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

hi joppa

check out page 12, 13 and first half of 14 please

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/509294/3C-3D-leave-v6.pdf


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

I have read all that. My interpretation stands. Where does it say she is eligible for 28-day grace?


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

history of wife below:


she came as student dependent in Jan 2013 in uk. i was on tier 4 student visa at that time. however in nov 2014 i became eligible for ilr based on 10 year rule.

i applied for my ilr and at the same time we applied for her flr fp. her student dependent visa was expiring so we applied for flr fp before the expiry. i got ilr in march 2015 but she got her flr flp rejected in april 2015. they gave her appeal right so we appealed and got the hearing for 6th may 2016.

recently she got a job offer and her employer contacted home office to ask whether or not she is allowed to work so home office confirmed that and said she is allowed to work because of section 3c.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

But only until the appeal is decided. It doesn't mean she can make a fresh out-of-time application for leave to remain.


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

plan was always to buy time and withdraw appeal the moment we become eligible for flrm

check the case study below. i have seen many people doing this on this forum.

<snipped> - you can't cite a rival forum. Mod.


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

Joppa said:


> I have read all that. My interpretation stands. Where does it say she is eligible for 28-day grace?


https://www.freemovement.org.uk/new-application-section-3c-leave-extended/


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Read the last paragraph:


> This does not apply, though, where a person withdraws their appeal.


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

Joppa said:


> Read the last paragraph:


276B wrote:
(v) the applicant must not be in the UK in breach of immigration laws except that any period of overstaying for a period of 28 days or less will be disregarded, as will any period of overstaying between periods of entry clearance, leave to enter or leave to remain of up to 28 days and any period of overstaying pending the determination of an application made within that 28 day period


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

This doesn't apply when someone has been on Section 3C leave during an appeal but then decides to withdraw their appeal. Then there is no 28-day grace period to make a fresh application. Otherwise they can keep on doing this to prolong their stay in UK indefinitely.


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## sanahaq123 (Apr 20, 2016)

Joppa said:


> This doesn't apply when someone has been on Section 3C leave during an appeal but then decides to withdraw their appeal. Then there is no 28-day grace period to make a fresh application. Otherwise they can keep on doing this to prolong their stay in UK indefinitely.


well where is that written that this doesn't apply when someone has been on Section 3C leave during an appeal but then decides to withdraw their appeal?

i cant post the other forum links here but believe me i have at least 8 success stories exactly similar to my case on that forum. plus all moderates there plus all advisers that i have spoken to said the same thing.

i decided to do this 14 months ago and since then i have seen people on appeal withdrawing their appeal and successfully getting flrm through PEO including my close friends wife did the exact same thing 3 months ago


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Ok, if you think you know better, just go ahead. This thread is now closed.


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