# 183 Days



## Bobndebs1959 (Jan 13, 2013)

Good Morning all,

I have been browsing the forum for a few weeks now and taking on plenty of advice thankyou all. My question now refers to the 183 days that I have seen mentioned many times. Am I right to assume that if I live in Spain for 182 days of the year and the rest in The UK or elsewhere, I do not have to register for residency or come under the Tax Declaration for Spain etc?

Thanks in advance


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Bobndebs1959 said:


> Good Morning all,
> 
> I have been browsing the forum for a few weeks now and taking on plenty of advice thankyou all. My question now refers to the 183 days that I have seen mentioned many times. Am I right to assume that if I live in Spain for 182 days of the year and the rest in The UK or elsewhere, I do not have to register for residency or come under the Tax Declaration for Spain etc?
> 
> Thanks in advance


Heh heh, Ive been going on about this for ages, but I get all kinds of different views.

If you are in Spain for more than 90 days you are supposed to sign on the foreigners register, which is the old version of residency. So you become a Spanish resident but live most of your time in the UK.

Tax residency and residency though are two different things. I've made enquiries and if I were to declare myself non tax resident in Spain in the future I would have to renounce my residency, but then that doesnt make sense if I live here for more than 3 months

Confused yet?


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Over 90 days Spain wants you to register for residency.

Spain considers anybody registered for residency tax resident.

If the other country you're living in potentially considers you tax resident you're stuck with the double tax treaty tie breakers on residency.

Short answer it'll depend on the country you're really living in. Number of days isn't a big issue.


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## Bobndebs1959 (Jan 13, 2013)

Well, I shall be on a Pension with an income from a rented property!!
What about if I do 90 days Spain then go to UK for 180 days then come back to Spain?
I will be paying Tax on my Pension as it is an Armed Forces Pension and so taxed before it will hit my bank!! I would have to pay tax on the income generated by my Rental of course but I am aware of that.
In short I am not trying to avoid Tax, just enquiring if I could avoid the nause of having to register etc and then all the hoops to jump through regarding tax and where I declare and so on, really I just want an easy life!!:clap2:
Cheerslane:


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

NickZ said:


> Over 90 days Spain wants you to register for residency.
> 
> *Spain considers anybody registered for residency tax resident.*
> 
> ...


that, as far as I'm aware, is wrong


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Normally military pensions are only taxed by the issuer.

So that would mean your tax status in Spain is a non issue when you're looking at the pension.


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

The Boss of the Tax office here in Valverde, El Hierro, told me that any person resident for six months or over must complete a tax return. We have government pensions that are taxed in the U.K., the tax office here accepted this, and they gave us a refund on bank charges.

However having said that, I'll bet that the rules are different from province to province


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## Freshmanwills (Feb 3, 2013)

Bobndebs1959 said:


> Well, I shall be on a Pension with an income from a rented property!!
> What about if I do 90 days Spain then go to UK for 180 days then come back to Spain?
> I will be paying Tax on my Pension as it is an Armed Forces Pension and so taxed before it will hit my bank!! I would have to pay tax on the income generated by my Rental of course but I am aware of that.
> In short I am not trying to avoid Tax, just enquiring if I could avoid the nause of having to register etc and then all the hoops to jump through regarding tax and where I declare and so on, really I just want an easy life!!:clap2:
> Cheerslane:


It depends on What rank you are when retiring how much your pension is how old are you etc. I think you will find that your pension will not be enough to be taxed upon here in Spain, Plus if you are taxed at source then you will not be taxed again in Spain on your military pension. If you register and do tax returns here I think you will be surprised, I know I was


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

NickZ said:


> Over 90 days Spain wants you to register for residency.
> 
> Spain considers anybody registered for residency tax resident.
> 
> ...


Give me links Nick, because that cant be correct. Tax residency is differemt to residency.

The number of days IS a big issue. If I spend more than 183 days outside Spain I am no longer a Spanish Tax resident. However, If I spend more than 90 days in Spain I have to be a resident in as much as I have to sign on the foreigners list.

So I am a Spanish resident, but not a Spanish Tax resident

How does that make sense?


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

http://www.agenciatributaria.es/AEA...sidentes/Folletos_divulgativos/irnringles.pdf

Start with that

"Residence Under Tax Conventions
In all agreements signed by Spain, reference
is made to each country's internal legislation
when defining an individual's country of
residence. Given that different countries may
have different criteria in this respect, an
individual may occasionally be deemed to be
a resident of two countries.
In such cases, the agreements stipulate the
following general criteria to avoid this possibility
of an individual being deemed to be a resident
of two countries:
• The individual shall be deemed to be a
resident of the country in which he/she has
a permanent home.
• If he/she has a permanent home in both
countries, he/she shall be deemed to be a
resident of the country with which he/she
has the closest personal and economic ties
(centre of vital interests).
• If the situation cannot be determined in this
way, he/she shall be deemed to be a resident
of the country in which he/she usually lives.
• If he/she habitually lives in both countries
or neither of them, he/she shall be deemed
to be a resident of the country whose
nationality he/she holds.
• Finally, if he/she is a national of both
countries or neither of them, the competent
authorities shall endeavour to settle the
question by mutual agreement."

Okay so start with the first bit. If you have residence in Spain you must have a permanent home available to you. Having Spanish residency means you've been caught on the first tie breaker.

Okay maybe you have a second home you routinely use outside of Spain. You have the centre of interest tests. This is the one that deals with family etc. You could be in Spain zero days but if your family is in Spain this test will get you.

If some how both the above are tied (Highly unlikely) then you've got the nationality test.

If you're a dual national then they toss a coin 

But there is no real requirement to be IN the country. Just think of the family rule.

Or think of this. When you get residency you can get a resident bank account. How much tax do they put on the interest for these accounts? The resident rate? Or do they charge you the tax treaty rate for your country?


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

NickZ said:


> http://www.agenciatributaria.es/AEA...sidentes/Folletos_divulgativos/irnringles.pdf
> 
> Start with that
> 
> ...



Page 1 of the document you linked to. Bit contradictory

INDIVIDUALS
Individuals shall be deemed to have their principal
residence in Spain if they meet any of the
following conditions:
• They spend more than 183 days per calendar
year in Spain. Occasional absences shall be
taken into account to calculate the period
of residence, except when said individuals
prove they have their tax residence in another
country. In the case of countries or territories
classified as tax havens, the Spanish tax
authorities may request proof of residence
in the tax haven for 183 days per calendar
year.
• Calculation of the period of residence shall
not take into account any temporary stays
in Spain that are the result of obligations
arising from cultural or humanitarian
collaboration agreements entered into with
the Spanish public administration with no
payment involved.
• Their main or central place of business is
directly or indirectly located in Spain.
Unless there is evidence to the contrary, an
individual shall be deemed to be a resident of
Spain if, in accordance with the aforementioned
criteria, his or her legally non-separated spouse
and dependent minor children have their principal
residence in Spain.


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## Clemmie00 (Jun 10, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> that, as far as I'm aware, is wrong


I certainly hope so. I was told that as long as I spend less than 183 days per calendar year in Spain, I won't be considered tax resident here. I've spoken to HMRC about this and they told me the same thing. I'm tax resident in the UK, registered as self-employed there and will complete a tax return detailing both my UK and Spanish earnings.


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## Bobndebs1959 (Jan 13, 2013)

Freshmanwills said:


> It depends on What rank you are when retiring how much your pension is how old are you etc. I think you will find that your pension will not be enough to be taxed upon here in Spain, Plus if you are taxed at source then you will not be taxed again in Spain on your military pension. If you register and do tax returns here I think you will be surprised, I know I was


My Military Pension will be around £17,000 per Annum before Tax, I shall be 55, I will have an extra £1200 per month on top of that from my property which I am renting out.
My pension will be taxed at source, and I currently declare my property income on self assessment, so thats why I am looking at whether or not being a"tax resident" makes a difference, as I obviously only want to pay tax once at the lowest rate possible and in one country!!
Cheers


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Bobndebs1959 said:


> My Military Pension will be around £17,000 per Annum before Tax, I shall be 55, I will have an extra £1200 per month on top of that from my property which I am renting out.
> My pension will be taxed at source, and I currently declare my property income on self assessment, so thats why I am looking at whether or not being a"tax resident" makes a difference, as I obviously only want to pay tax once at the lowest rate possible and in one country!!
> Cheers


you will only pay once regardless

a lot of people find they actually get a tax rebate here!!


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## Freshmanwills (Feb 3, 2013)

Bobndebs1959 said:


> My Military Pension will be around £17,000 per Annum before Tax, I shall be 55, I will have an extra £1200 per month on top of that from my property which I am renting out.
> My pension will be taxed at source, and I currently declare my property income on self assessment, so thats why I am looking at whether or not being a"tax resident" makes a difference, as I obviously only want to pay tax once at the lowest rate possible and in one country!!
> Cheers


Perhaps consult a tax consultant, they will be able to tell you what you are able to earn etc here but your military pension is taxed at source therefore will only be taxed the once, the income you get from your rental property is not something I can tell you about


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

Bobndebs1959 said:


> My Military Pension will be around £17,000 per Annum before Tax, I shall be 55, I will have an extra £1200 per month on top of that from my property which I am renting out.
> My pension will be taxed at source, and I currently declare my property income on self assessment, so thats why I am looking at whether or not being a"tax resident" makes a difference, as I obviously only want to pay tax once at the lowest rate possible and in one country!!
> Cheers



You should have a read of HMRC advice - 

HM Revenue & Customs: Non-residents: frequently asked questions

As you touched upon earlier, it's a bit more complicated than just 183 days per yr, there is also the issue of 90 days per visit over a 4yr period........

Frankly, you'd probably be easier registering in Spain. If you don't you will have difficulty doing all sorts of things long term - buying a phone, car, paying bills, etc - which need your NI number.

Also, think it will probably be easier & cheaper to pay a gestor to help you fill in your Spanish Tax form, exercising double taxation treaty if necessary, than to pay for flights etc back and forth as you near 90 day periods, etc.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

With the new "asset declaration law" I wouldn't even bother. They'll have their hand in your pocket eventually over this especially with the Draconian fines.


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

I've just been to a tax accountant / gestor. Apparently it is quite possible to be a resident in Spain whilst NOT being a fiscal tax resident in Spain. I.E, I would just have to spend less than the 183 days in Spain


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## 90199 (Mar 21, 2010)

I too used a Gestor, he told me that because I did not have income in Spain, I did not need to fill in a tax return.

I later consulted the local tax office and they advised me to the contrary and told me that the advice given to me by the Gestor was totally wrong.

Sadly the Gestor died and I cannot get a refund.

The moral of this story is, if in doubt consult the tax office.


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