# Australia or Canada



## karishpt (Aug 17, 2011)

Hello, 

I need help do decide where to migrate. Me & my husband want to migrate from Dubai(current location) to either Australia or Canada but are unable to decide which country to relocate. :confused2:

Need max inputs as possible.

Thank u all in advance..! 
Karish


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## _Sarah_ (Jun 27, 2011)

Hi,

This is an age old debate 

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/au...ving-australia/24247-australia-vs-canada.html
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/ge...38226-us-canada-uk-australia-please-help.html
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/au...ving-australia/66858-canada-vs-australia.html

You might find some useful information on those threads, but you are very welcome to discuss your own thoughts here.

Australia and Canada are, needless to say, two extremely different countries with different cultural, economic, demography, geographic situations


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## hari999999 (Mar 17, 2009)

karishpt said:


> Hello,
> 
> I need help do decide where to migrate. Me & my husband want to migrate from Dubai(current location) to either Australia or Canada but are unable to decide which country to relocate. :confused2:
> 
> ...


Hello karishpt.....
To say sincerly 
About climate its better in Australia
But in case of Racism Canada is good than AUstralia.

Thankyou


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## _Sarah_ (Jun 27, 2011)

hari999999 said:


> Hello karishpt.....
> To say sincerly
> About climate its better in Australia
> But in case of Racism Canada is good than AUstralia.
> Thankyou


Hi,

Do you have first-hand experience of racism in either Canada or Australia? Or are you getting your information from inreliable, over-exaggerated stories in the media? 

There are racism people all over the world and it doesn't help when someone tries to say that one country is more racist than another. We cannot use media stories to make up an opinion about a country.

Also, there are many more migrants from Indian and Asia in Australia than there is in Canada.


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## karishpt (Aug 17, 2011)

thnx got a lot of info from the links provided.


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## _Sarah_ (Jun 27, 2011)

You're welcome, I'm sure you will be happy in either country, but they are too very different choices. Don't make up you mind based on what you might see in the media. Think about in what sort of environment you want to live.


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## tarazena (Feb 1, 2011)

I've seen this topic come up many times...so funny it's always a choice between those two. I am Canadian and moving to Australia in 6 weeks...EEEEK : )
Canada is great- but like I always put in these posts...so freekin' cold!!! No exaggeration. One of our main reasons for leaving here is the snow and cold. IT is really cold and I the snow is annoying. Just my experience. : )


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## armandra (Nov 27, 2009)

hari999999 said:


> Hello karishpt.....
> To say sincerly
> About climate its better in Australia
> But in case of Racism Canada is good than AUstralia.
> ...



And you've been to both the places? Is this your first hand experience and not based on someone's whims and fantasies?? 


armandra!


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## rekha.mcnutt (Aug 8, 2011)

I am also Canadian and seriously contemplating a move to Aus! As shallow as it sounds, our motivations are weather related as well. I woke up to a lawn full of snow from a hail storm last night... IT'S AUGUST of crying out loud...the peak of "summer" lol I live in Calgary.

The advantages I can see (only from the research I've done) is cost of living. Incomes seem to be higher while things cost much less. Proximity to the US, where costs are even lower, helps with this, I think. That being said, it obviously varies depending on what part of either country you live in.


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## _Sarah_ (Jun 27, 2011)

Yet again someone who makes sweeping statements and assumes that one person's peception of the world is correct:

*"im just talkin bout the general culture there n whats considered acceptable in that society"*
So you're saying that we accept racism in Australia? "General culture"...yes that sounds very academic. What a nice way to insult us all here on the forum. According to you, I'm racist and it's part of my culture.

*"There is a general opinion that indians as a whole are a menace n should be laughed at"*
Basically using the word "general" you are acusing the vast majority of us Australians of being racist. Frankly I would frown upon anyone who thinks it's funny to laugh at other races. Just because you had to meet one or even ten Australian idiots, doesn't mean that we are all like that.

*"They call us "turdskins"
*"They" - implying the majority of the population. I've never heard it said, nor heard about it before, and I would definately never insult someone of another race with such a term, or any term for that matter.

*Look at what their team did in the commonwealth games.* 
Sport teams are stupid, I don't even know what happened but I don't respect the vast majority of sport's teams anyway.

*They are not politically correct at all n they might even tell you to go home openly which many americans n canadians will be polite enough to not say out loud. 
* Again I'm very sorry if some idiot has said this to you, but I'm sure only a small minority of the population is stupid enough to be so racist. 

*They avoid sitting next to you in subways n other places coz of the usual "oh those indians smell" stereotype.* 
I catch the metro in Melbourne everyday and everyone sits anywhere. Some people might be stupid and believe in this stereotype, but again, I doubt the majority is like this.

All these incidents can't be proven but the implicit racism n prejudice is very much alive n kicking.
*As I'm sure it is in any other country. What about the current situation in India with the caste system? Do you want to speak about that? In Australia each new group of immigrants took a while to be accepted. First is was the Europeans (the Greeks and Italians mainly), but now we don't care anymore. Then the Asians, now the Indians. Very soon the Indians will be just as well assimilated as the other immigrants. It's especially hard for the first generations, but the children of immigrants are unrecognisable among everyone else. Through highshool I was in class with many students from Indian and Sri Lanka who were just like me. *

*Dont go there. Canada is much better when it comes to this issue hands down. Go ahead n thumb down this post. I just spoke bout my experience.
*
I'm sorry if you had a bad experience, but I could personally introduce you to many Indians that I know who have not had this experience. After living 19 years in Melbourne I think I have a pretty good idea of the attitudes of Australians. There will always be racist idiots.

Finally, if racism is so bad in Australia, I doubt there would be such a thriving Indian community here. There's always the UK, Canada, USA, New Zealand, Europe,* there's a whole world to chose from,* but many Indians choose to come to Australia, and frankly I think that they wouldn't stay if they thought it was that bad.

Again, I'm really sorry that you had a bad experience, but please don't judge 20+ million people, nor the majority. I personally would go out of my way to make any foreigner feel welcome.


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## Weebie (Sep 16, 2009)

Heres the fundamental issue with Canada and Australia. In Australia your qualifications will count and your experience will be recognised. In Canada you could be an engineer or professional and your doomed to work low skilled jobs or as a taxi driver. Without proper University Qualifications from a major westernised country you have no chance in Canada.

As for Australia it's not as bad as people say. Firstly Indians do stupid things in Australia like move into cheap dangerous areas and ride public transport late at night carry laptops etc. Essentially in terms of crime Indians are easy targets.

It's been proven though lately that the odds of racially motivated attacks are slim. Although some indians and pakistanis were attacked in terms of attacks carried out against all citizens in Melbourne the attracts carried on Indians and Pakistanis was nothing out of the ordinary.


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## Weebie (Sep 16, 2009)

whether Australians are racist or not is irrelavent. I'm pointing out that at least you have a chance in Australia. In Canada or America as an Indian trained professional you have no chance.

Many indians live in poor neighbourhoods in outer suburbs. The likelyhood that people are going to be bashed is obvious. FFS I'm a white Australian and like most of my mates I've been attacked at some point. It happens regulary in Australia at some point. We don't cry foul on racism though. Indians blame everyone....they always feel to need to blame someone.

The reality is that many Pujabis who are living in Melbourne are struggling to integrate in Australia. If you can't integrate doesn't matter how smart you are or how good your Australian qualifications are you have no chance in this country. In Canada or American though anyway Indians have no chance unless they are educated in those countries local systems.


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## Guest (Aug 21, 2011)

indian_in_da_house said:


> Hari is right...having lived in Australia for a while I can tell you that the racism there is unprecedented. By racism im not talking bout being killed or assaulted eventhough that happened to a lot of indians back in 2009. And I'm not saying all australians are racists coz thats not true even during those colonial times. Good people exist everywhere. But by saying that australia is racist im just talkin bout the general culture there n whats considered acceptable in that society. There is a general opinion that indians as a whole are a menace n should be laughed at. They call us "turdskins". Look at what their team did in the commonwealth games. They are not politically correct at all n they might even tell you to go home openly which many americans n canadians will be polite enough to not say out loud. But the prejudice n hate your gonna experience there is insane especially if you are an indian or sri lankan or any of those types. For example :- They avoid sitting next to you in subways n other places coz of the usual "oh those indians smell" stereotype. Some of them might see you in the elevator n then decide hey i want some exercise so I think i will take the stairs. Or if you try to go to a club n the bouncer gives you that look that says....please go back to your own country. Or if you make a small mistake the officer or whoever is in charge will be pissed off n talk rudely n pounce on you hard. Coz deep down its not the mistake that you made but the fact that you are indian that pisses them off a lot more. All these incidents can't be proven but the implicit racism n prejudice is very much alive n kicking. Dont go there. Canada is much better when it comes to this issue hands down. Go ahead n thumb down this post. I just spoke bout my experience.


You seem to have visited an entirely different Australia than what I visited. Are you sure you visited Australia and not Afghanistan for example?? They both start with A you know 

Your thumb down comment actually sheds light on a very interesting situation. They have a 'Like' link a 'Share' link and a 'Thanks' button on this forum, but no 'Thumbs Down' or 'Dislike' button 

Whereabouts did you visit in Australia by the way? That would shed some light on the situation. What I observed on my visit is that as long as you remain a well-dressed, well-spoken gentleman of congenial disposition with no intentions of ingratiating yourself on people (NOTE: this summarizes a lot of meaning in a few words), you make a lot of good friends.


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## Guest (Aug 21, 2011)

indian_in_da_house said:


> Australians always live in denial and try to play down these complaints by Indians coz after all they have those inherent victorian values of racial superiority. They think we are subhumans who dont deserve a good life just because our country is a mess at this point. Whatever these people accuse Indians of doing in Australia , the same is done by the chinese. They also live in dangerous neighborhoods and carry laptops n everything. But they are not attacked as much. There are 2 reasons for that. One is east asians are light skinned so obviously its a relief for them. Secondly they got much bigger business interests in Australia and they wouldnt wanna mess that up. Obviously its a lot smarter to pick on n bully people you are not getting much from.


Tell me something. When was the last time you met someone on the road and thought "HEY!! His country gives my country a lot of business, so lets be real nice to him"????? You have probably NEVER done this, and most people haven't either. Its not about your country, the business it provides or whatever. It's all about YOU and what you do and the kind of image you project to people.


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## _Sarah_ (Jun 27, 2011)

I think it's you that is racist. Hitler had values of racial superiority, that is over, you are a very sick person. You live in hate and would probably brand every Australian you meet as racist. I treat everyone I meet as an equal, and I don't think that anyone is below me, yet you would deny any existance of goodness in the Australia population because you obviously have a clouded mind. 



indian_in_da_house said:


> Australians always live in denial and try to play down these complaints by Indians coz after all they have those inherent victorian values of racial superiority. They think we are subhumans who dont deserve a good life just because our country is a mess at this point. Whatever these people accuse Indians of doing in Australia , the same is done by the chinese. They also live in dangerous neighborhoods and carry laptops n everything. But they are not attacked as much. There are 2 reasons for that. One is east asians are light skinned so obviously its a relief for them. Secondly they got much bigger business interests in Australia and they wouldnt wanna mess that up. Obviously its a lot smarter to pick on n bully people you are not getting much from.


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## _Sarah_ (Jun 27, 2011)

And guess what? Even though you must hate me because you think I'm racist, I still think that you are just like any other human being on this planet who deserves the best life possible. Sorry that I don't fit the description you have made about Australians. I think you'll find that no Australian on this whole forum fits your description.


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## EE-India (May 16, 2009)

_Sarah_ said:


> Hi,
> 
> Do you have first-hand experience of racism in either Canada or Australia?


Hari999999 landed in Australia year back and I guess he is still around, hope this is reasonable to time judge what was seen media is true or just a speculation 

Moreover do we really have personal experience in everything we talk? 

Thousands protest against Indian student attacks - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Does Canada have any examples like this?

However, when it is comes to migration, racism should be out of discussion , it can’t be a point of decision making , you should be lucky enough to get away with all these , either it is US , Canada or Australia , it is just the fate , nothing can stop


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## EE-India (May 16, 2009)

Weebie said:


> In Canada you could be an engineer or professional and your doomed to work low skilled jobs or as a taxi driver. Without proper University Qualifications from a major westernised country you have no chance in Canada.
> 
> *It is an old story, better you have to update if you have someone. I can comments on engineering profession as I know well but not on other areas. Some of my ex colleagues migrated to Calgary / Edmonton are earning Avg 160 K $ salary in engineering industry , the only restriction is you can`t be an engineering document approver, but who bothers or who ask for it as long as you get paid and work in industry. I do get calls from Canadian recruiters very often through my Linked-In profile which I posted with Vancouver Address last year
> 
> ...


Very sad that this thread is hijacked


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## EE-India (May 16, 2009)

Weebie said:


> The reality is that many Pujabis who are living in Melbourne are struggling to integrate in Australia.


Where are the honourable Forum moderators, this is not violating forum rules? It is not against any particular community or group !!


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## EE-India (May 16, 2009)

Weebie said:


> America as an Indian trained professional you have no chance.
> 
> American though anyway Indians have no chance unless they are educated in those countries local systems.


Can you make it clear what are the professions you are talking about? 

In USA, Indians are mainly in to software industry and you are trying to say they are locally trained or studied to get employed there!! Then what for H1B visa is? We have 100s of people from US writing on this same forum , it is good someone can give insight on this


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## _Sarah_ (Jun 27, 2011)

I will try to be clear:
I do not deny that racists exists in Australia, however I am adamant that you are blowing it out of proportion.
1. No one I have known for the past 19 years would ever have racist values and would 100% disagree that "talking **** about India" is part of our "culture". Culture is a set of *shared values*, so how can you call it culture if it's only a small minority of the population?
2. Stupid people are not afraid to say racist things in public because they know they won't go to prison for it. Kyle Sandilands is a piece of scum.
3. Are there not a few bad/corrupt police men in every country? So one group out of hundreds of thousands of police officers do something bad and you can judge the whole country?
4. "These kind of barbaric attitudes are the reason why I said what I said. And I will say it again. Canada n America are more civilised than the outback. End of story." You do realise that sweeping statements are the roots of racism, and you are no better than the idiots you hate.

5. Canada had racist immigration policies to prevent the Chinese population migrating there up until 1967.
6. Racist people will not become extremely violent until they think that there are too many "foreigners" in their country. Canada has extremely lower levels of ethnic diversity than Australia, so all those who have hidden racist values have no need to turn to violence because they don't feel threatened. 

Racism is a hude issue in America just as much as it is here. That is to say it exists, but it does not apply to the majority of the population same for Australia. Just because we all know that there are Americans who are extremely xenophobic, and scared of Islam, doesn't mean they're all like that - it's just a small minority. Basically you are letting the Americans get away with their bad minority but for Australians, you are turning the minority into the majority. What a joke.

You say Australia is barbaric because some idiots said stupid things and some thugs were violent -* I don't call India "barbaric" because of the caste system.*


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## _Sarah_ (Jun 27, 2011)

EE-India said:


> Where are the honourable Forum moderators, this is not violating forum rules? It is not against any particular community or group !!


What about your friend who said this?:
"Canada n America are more civilised than the outback. End of story."
- pure racism.


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## _Sarah_ (Jun 27, 2011)

Read more: More murders in India than Australia | Indian TV | Homicides | Nitin Garg stab

Dear EE-India, here is why these stories of "violence" need to be re-examined.

PLEASE READ
India, of course, is a very big country. But the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime estimates that relative to population, its homicide rate is more than twice that of Australia. It is a country in which violent crime is commonplace - so commonplace that every day more than 100 Indians are murdered by other Indians, yet their TV news channels treat this as humdrum unless it involves some celebrity or unusual features.

Yet when an Indian is murdered overseas, these news channels whip themselves and their viewers into a froth of indignation at the country concerned. How can this happen?, they thunder. How can any civilised nation fail to protect its residents? What kind of racist country is this?
How does this happen? *Well, it happens because human beings are imperfect creatures. They can be selfish, they can be hateful, they can enjoy hurting, even killing, other humans. It happens here, it happens in India, it happens everywhere.*
Governments can't stop it because they can't control what their citizens do 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Governments can't monitor every suburban park in Melbourne at night to ensure that no teenagers with knives have gathered for an illegal drinking binge. They can't monitor every dark street in India's cities, or every home in its villages, to stop people killing each other.

Australians instinctively know that their parks are not safe places at night, and avoid using them as short cuts. Tragically, Nitin Garg did not know that. And so he has become another victim of our epidemic of alcohol abuse, our tolerance of extreme violence in films and screen games - and yes, of Romper Stomper racism that seems to live on among teenagers in the western suburbs, now directed against Indians instead of Vietnamese.
Does that mean Australia is unsafe? No. Relative to most countries, it is very safe. But you can be unlucky. Like Nitin Garg, you can be in the wrong place at the wrong time - and come up against the worst characteristics of a society.

*This was highlighted in the calm, sensible advisory notice on Tuesday by India's Ministry of External Affairs. It warns intending students of the rise in violent attacks on the streets of Melbourne. But it notes that these are occurring all over Melbourne ''without any discernible pattern or rationale behind them . . . often accompanied by verbal abuse, fuelled by alcohol or drugs''. The offenders are ''mainly young people in their teens or early 20s''.*

Read more: More murders in India than Australia | Indian TV | Homicides | Nitin Garg stab





EE-India said:


> Hari999999 landed in Australia year back and I guess he is still around, hope this is reasonable to time judge what was seen media is true or just a speculation
> 
> Moreover do we really have personal experience in everything we talk?
> 
> ...


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## Weebie (Sep 16, 2009)

EE-India said:


> Very sad that this thread is hijacked


As someone who has worked in the engineering sector and spent considerable time in Calgary those figuress u quoted are nothing but bullsh*t and I know it. Very few engineers hit those salaries in Canada even in O&G. Secondly I am well aware that the province accreditation system does matter when it comes to signing off drawings.

Indian Engineers in Calgary drive taxis. You have no chance working as an engineer in Canada without a proper engineering degree from a westernised country. I doubt you mates are earning 160k+. Many of the taxi drivers in Calgary are Indian engineering grads from Chennai.

Many Indians are pissed off with Australia because many fail to secure proper jobs after education. 

As for America yes a few software boys will make it over but in general many will struggle. At least Australia also offers a visa to stay after study which Ameria doesnt


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## ricks1088 (Mar 10, 2011)

EE-India said:


> Can you make it clear what are the professions you are talking about?
> 
> In USA, Indians are mainly in to software industry and you are trying to say they are locally trained or studied to get employed there!! Then what for H1B visa is? We have 100s of people from US writing on this same forum , it is good someone can give insight on this


I believe people find jobs based on their credentials not because they are trained in US or somewhere else. I know many Indians who got job offers from US while sitting in India but they preferred Indian lifestyle and rejected the offers. There are many Indians in US IT industry on H1b visas and they are doing very well in terms of money and lifestyle. Lol, I think there are not many h1b people on this Aus forum else they would have laughed hearing that people from India do not stand a chance in US. Due to bad economy, there are less jobs in market and Indians might not find best jobs in US but that has nothing to do with demographics.

I studied 2 years of my Bachelors degree in India and then transferred to US university. Completed my degree here and since then have been working as a Java Programmer. Recently, I was offered a job in Melbourne on 457 visa. I was in Aus for a month and then came back to US as I got a better job offer from a bigger company. My point of sharing my story is that the nationality make no difference in professions like IT or Medical. I can't comment on other professions.

About Racism, I have not experienced it yet in Australia, US, Canada, or UAE. My boyfriend is studying in Aus. he told me a funny incident where a professor was fired and later rehired as a tutor as he used to pass comments on Asian students English skills. Now, he can't teach classes. All he can do is assist other professors in preparing for lectures.


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

ricks1088 said:


> I believe people find jobs based on their credentials not because they are trained in US or somewhere else. I know many Indians who got job offers from US while sitting in India but they preferred Indian lifestyle and rejected the offers. There are many Indians in US IT industry on H1b visas and they are doing very well in terms of money and lifestyle.


Agree. I have seen many people from all walks of life come here very poor, and based on their credentials have made it big. I remember a young woman who came here from the Dominican Republic in the 90's, educated in dentistry in that country. Once she came here, they told her she would not only need to take continuing ed courses, but State exams as well to "bridge" her education. But instead of giving up, she did exactly that. She never complained. Today, she's a dental surgeon who practices in the Hollywood area of California - I kid you not when I tell you she's very well off - she just bought her daughter a new car for her 16th birthday. She's doing a heck of a lot better than me, and I'm a born and raised American.

As for East Indians - I think it's ridiculous for anyone to imply that Indian education is not worth anything - one of my professors (and I have graduated from a top undergraduate university here in the States), is an alumni of ISB (Indian School of Business) who has made it big himself. He came here on a visa, (not sure which one) and said that he had to start by doing volunteer work to prove himself, until one day, he landed a senior permanent job at a fortune 500 company. Today - years later - he doesn't have to prove anything - in fact, he is very sought after - major universities have offered to hire him to establish global networks.

So while it is true that discrimination may exist (lets face it, it exists at the global level), sure it hurts, but I don't think it is a big hindrance unless *you* allow it to be.


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## Guest (Aug 22, 2011)

Weebie said:


> As someone who has worked in the engineering sector and spent considerable time in Calgary


Errrrrrr weren't you doing a law degree in Australia a few days back??? Engineering + Law doesn't seem to mix in my head but then again I know someone on this forum who is doing a double bachelors in accounting and mechanical engineering  Maybe it's an Australian thing???


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## _Sarah_ (Jun 27, 2011)

indian_in_da_house said:


> The reality was that we had a great civilisation n were doing quite well until your barbaric people showed up with guns. Now the caste system or whatever system is how we deal with our own people. Its none of your business because it does not include Australians unless you want me to get started on how you treat the aboriginals(the original inhabitants) there who probably have a lower lifespan than your pet dog.


I'm sick of this. I do not judge India, that's exactly what I said, I said that no matter what people say about India, no matter the history of the caste system, I do not judge India based on that because I know that Indians are not bad people. YOU however, think you have the right to judge a whole population, and you hate Australians.
Can't you see?:
*Me - I'm not judging any country because we can't use one aspect of its history to judge its people. 
You - are acusing all Australians of being bad people.*
You are a sick sick person who thinks he can judge entire populations, that is pathetic, I am smart enough to know that I cannot judge any population but my own, you on the other hand are a raicst pig.
What the government does has nothing to do with the people. What people did 100 years ago has nothing to do with a people. What a minority thinks has nothing to do with a population as a whole.

Racists use "you" as an inclusive plural, to refer to a whole population fo people. My family immigrated to Australia too, and so did most of the population, do how dare you assume that the average Australian treats aboriginals badly, when WE, the population do nothing of the sort, and it's not our fault what the government did or does. You should know that. You're a racist - and you know I'm right because you won't even answer my questions:
"How can you say that all Australians are the same and how does what the government does say anything about its population?" It doesn't. End of story.


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## _Sarah_ (Jun 27, 2011)

indian_in_da_house said:


> The caste system is just a lame blown out of proportion excuse that foreigners like you use to justify their hatred of India.


HYPOCRITE HYPOCRITE HYPOCRITE HYPOCRITE
Yes, you are correct that the caste system is a lame blown out of proportion excuse 
*Can't you see that I'm saying exactly the same thing, that's the only thing I'm trying to defend, that the same applied for Australia "These stories of violence which have been blown out of proportion are used by people like you to justify your hatred of Australia"*

*Please, see reason, if the caste system is blown out of proportion, then so is the Aboriginal situation, and so is the racism issue, can't you see???? *

So you have given yourself the right to use a lame excuse that has been blown out of proportion to judge a whole people?


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## _Sarah_ (Jun 27, 2011)

EVERYONE!!!!!

Just stop and listen for a second!
Australia and India both have problems, however, these problems don't describe the country as a whole and these problems are exploited by both our people to criticise the other.

*Racism in Australia is blown out of proportion and it makes me cry to think that anyone would consider the majority of us as racists.
The caste system in India is a matter of history and does not say anything about the Indian population.*

I'm the only one who's not attacking India nor Australia  
Stupid people are the ones who judge a whole nation of people, no one can ever judge a whole nation yet here we see people doing just so. PLEASE SEE REASON, be peaceful and accept that most people all over the world are good!


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## Guest (Aug 22, 2011)

_Sarah_ said:


> I'm sick of this. I do not judge India, that's exactly what I said, I said that no matter what people say about India, no matter the history of the caste system, I do not judge India based on that because I know that Indians are not bad people. YOU however, think you have the right to judge a whole population, and you hate Australians.
> Can't you see?:
> *Me - I'm not judging any country because we can't use one aspect of its history to judge its people. *
> *You - are acusing all Australians of being bad people.*
> ...


Just to add, it was the Brits who did the pillaging. Australia was a 'criminal colony' in the 1700s so not much money would have flowed in from the 'Empire'. And it got democratically separated in the beginning of the 1900s. And in between, although a lot of development work was done in terms of rail road construction etc., a lot of mining of resources was also done (if I remember correctly). So no one can blame the OZies for pillaging any land.

About Aborigines - today the government is going to great pains to ensure equal provision of opportunities to them. I know a lot of wrong was done in the past, but the government is trying to make amends. And let us be very clear about one thing. In today's cut throat world, it is far better for the Aborigines to have a very scientifically advanced governement that is capable of defending itself. Because if not for the current government, it is a given that SOMEONE would have attacked and conquered Australia. And then they MIGHT have had to live under communism!!!!

There is one more aspect of this 'racism' thing in Australia. Many Australians like to honestly speak their minds about everything under the sun. They are very upright people and if they are saying something bad, it doesn't necessarily mean they have hate in their hearts. They just speak what comes into their mind. An Australian guy told me: "We like people who can laugh at themselves. Some people take great offense if I pass a remark. I on the other hand don't mind at all. I just say what I want and don't keep things in my heart". Of course none of this justifies stupid comments from radio hosts, but let us keep this in mind when judging Australians in general.


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## _Sarah_ (Jun 27, 2011)

Look, I agree with you. From the start here I just wanted to defend Australia's dignity because it is true that we cannot judge a whole nation based on a couple of events. I wouldn't do that to India, nor any other country.

There is racism: making jokes about people, saying passing remarks, and then there's *racism: actually wanting bad to come upon that race.
There is lots of casual racism in Australia, but deep down we are not barbarians and would save the life of an Indian just as quickly as anyone else.

Thank you for speaking about this leptokurtic, I just want us all to get along and I would really love it if indian_in_da_house would see that we both said bad things but we were both wrong.



leptokurtic said:



Just to add, it was the Brits who did the pillaging. Australia was a 'criminal colony' in the 1700s so not much money would have flowed in from the 'Empire'. And it got democratically separated in the beginning of the 1900s. And in between, although a lot of development work was done in terms of rail road construction etc., a lot of mining of resources was also done (if I remember correctly). So no one can blame the OZies for pillaging any land.

About Aborigines - today the government is going to great pains to ensure equal provision of opportunities to them. I know a lot of wrong was done in the past, but the government is trying to make amends. And let us be very clear about one thing. In today's cut throat world, it is far better for the Aborigines to have a very scientifically advanced governement that is capable of defending itself. Because if not for the current government, it is a given that SOMEONE would have attacked and conquered Australia. And then they MIGHT have had to live under communism!!!!

There is one more aspect of this 'racism' thing in Australia. Many Australians like to honestly speak their minds about everything under the sun. They are very upright people and if they are saying something bad, it doesn't necessarily mean they have hate in their hearts. They just speak what comes into their mind. An Australian guy told me: "We like people who can laugh at themselves. Some people take great offense if I pass a remark. I on the other hand don't mind at all. I just say what I want and don't keep things in my heart". Of course none of this justifies stupid comments from radio hosts, but let us keep this in mind when judging Australians in general.

Click to expand...

*


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## oz_sg10 (Aug 31, 2010)

I would definitely like to say that Australia is today a much better place to live, and ofcourse much better than India. This is evident from the hundreds of thousands who migrate every year. They would be insane to migrate if they had everything back home. If I remember right, Indians were number 1 in the list in the number of people who converted to Oz citizenship last year. If Australia was so bad, I have no idea why these people did so. Maybe they were not in their right minds?

Racism is not even a criteria when you think of migration, because it really is blown out of proportion. If you say racism exists here, I would not disagree that caste/regional discrimination exists back in india because the latter is actually far more evident in day to day life of an average person there. I do not wish to elaborate it here but I for one have always been saddened by all the issues back home. Finally, I had to decide to move out because I found that there is no other way. Inspite of this, I have seen several fellow countrymen who come out of the country, criticize that country and do not even make an attempt to integrate with the new environment. I do not support this kind of hypocrites. 

To decide between Oz and Canada is ones own call. Do a research on the worlds most liveable cities. See how the human development index is ranking the places you want to go. Lookout for the job opporunities in both places. Look at the climate. Racism should not be a criteria according to me. If you are so concerned, you can even make a visit and stay for a couple of weeks to experience it yourself. 




_Sarah_ said:


> Look, I agree with you. From the start here I just wanted to defend Australia's dignity because it is true that we cannot judge a whole nation based on a couple of events. I wouldn't do that to India, nor any other country.
> 
> There is racism: making jokes about people, saying passing remarks, and then there's *racism: actually wanting bad to come upon that race.
> There is lots of casual racism in Australia, but deep down we are not barbarians and would save the life of an Indian just as quickly as anyone else.
> ...


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## Guest (Aug 22, 2011)

_Sarah_ said:


> Look, I agree with you. From the start here I just wanted to defend Australia's dignity because it is true that we cannot judge a whole nation based on a couple of events. I wouldn't do that to India, nor any other country.
> 
> There is racism: making jokes about people, saying passing remarks, and then there's *racism: actually wanting bad to come upon that race.
> There is lots of casual racism in Australia, but deep down we are not barbarians and would save the life of an Indian just as quickly as anyone else.
> ...


*

Don't worry, it was my responsibility to 'clear the air' so to speak by re-iterating some widely known facts. And I wasn't trying to judge you in any way 

You will face many different sorts of people and they will hold many different beliefs. Try not to get too worked up over anything you see on the internet. It ain't important enough to let it spoil your mood.

That said, I can see Weebie is avoiding giving any explanation of how he is pursuing a law degree when he already has 'considerable engineering experience in Calgary'  This one is going to be real hooooooot :rofl:*


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## _Sarah_ (Jun 27, 2011)

oz_sg10 said:


> Racism is not even a criteria when you think of migration, because it really is blown out of proportion. If you say racism exists here, I would not disagree that caste/regional discrimination exists back in india because the latter is actually far more evident in day to day life of an average person there.


All countries are beautiful in some way. No one's country is perfect, and you can bet that I wish that some Australians would change their attitudes. There are scum and I don't know if you've heard of 'white trash', but there are real idiots in Australia. That said, same goes for any country. Also, I do believe that the vast majority are good people, and that goes for anything.

As for the Canadian/Australian debate, I love both countries and I think any would be a good choice. The main thing that I would take into account is the whether, apart from that I really suck when someone says "what's the __ industry like?", hell I have no idea 

I really think there's enough badness in the world that we, the culturally conscious, don't need to bicker among each other and I am at fault too. I have no doubt that India is a great nation. And while I think Australia is also great, I'm not a crazy patriote, after all I will soon be an expatriate.


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## ozthedream (Dec 31, 2010)

*australian 'culture'*

hi Weebie 

thanks for your practical comments laying down the facts threadbare. 

its so dissapointing that among the naysayers - half havent visited oz and believe whatever they read and heard. The rest as you say have not been able to assimilate with the local culture for whatever reason and end up as critics. 

How can such an atitude make them a success culturally in any other locale too - USA , Canada , UK , Afghanistan et al . 

Nevertheless, lets assume a good proportion of locals in oz are having a low view of indians - but what stops us from living our lives and enjoying the perks and benefits of a superb living environment, a spoken language we are well versed in, ample benefits for family, good schooling, nice work life balance . 

one last word - if my fellow indians had aussies or europeans etc working with us in the middl east , singapore , south africa , u name it - there is indeed an element of 'comfort within our people' prevalent in all cultures - so live with it


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## ozthedream (Dec 31, 2010)

dear fellow indian 

Am sad and astonished at the level of anger and disgust emanating in this topic and increasingly from your side . 

From your profle , you reside in kuwait and expat in USA - Then why these accusations and utterances on australia and australians ?? 

Do you have any firsthand experience or from your relatives / friends / colleagues / neigbours / anyone who has been in oz for years ?

what the 'plunderers' did 500 years ago is not relevant as to what an aussie thinks of you when he sees you or when you see him , isnt it ? 

if one is intelligent , well dressed, articulate , open minded , warm with a sense of humour and leave our self righteaous ego back home , one has a good chance of being a social success anywhere from buenos aires to brisbane , from montreal to melbourne. 

aint we have better things to discuss for Gods sake


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## oz_sg10 (Aug 31, 2010)

ozthedream, look at earlier posts from him.. this chap seems to have studied in UK, then did masters in Australia and is in the middle east - he wants to now try the US on H1b. He is basically trying to somehow move to some western country. I am sure he did not choose kuwait over UK and Australia by choice. He is now into bashing Australia, and soon he will venture into bashing US if he finds out that he will not get an h1b.. 

here are a few links which should make him reconsider going to US since there are hate crimes there too:

Indian students in US radio-tagged; angry govt says remove it - Times Of India

Sikh man in US called 'Osama's brother', punched -  

US couple gets jail for hate crime against Indian-American - The Times of India


I think it was not right on his part to talk negative against all Australians - and against a forum member who has been very helpful to a large number of people regardless of nationality. Every society has its own negatives - be it US, Canada, Australia or India, and Indians specifically think Ozs have something against them. This is something that seems to have come from the media (Indian media specially). Victims of crime are spread across races - its not just one. The point you should note is that the crime statistics here is far less.

I am yet to come across a case of racism against an Indian in Oz who is not a student. Indian students come here and do not behave properly - that is the very problem. And I am not saying all of them - some of them. 

Majority of the people in any given country are good, be it India, Australia or Canada. You cannot take some select events or incidents and blame all of them for it whatever it may be. One can also not blame a country just because he/she was not successful there.





ozthedream said:


> dear fellow indian
> 
> Am sad and astonished at the level of anger and disgust emanating in this topic and increasingly from your side .
> 
> ...


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

For what my opinion is worth statistics don't influence much what people think.
I am a Londoner, my experience of Aussies here has been almost entirely positive. As I am regularly in SE Asia I have plenty of opportunity to visit Australia, and I would love to do so. But I travel with my wife and because of her experiences there she has decided she will never return.
She is Chinese Malaysian and has visited Melbourne twice. Once when she was 12 and in the week she was there her, her father and her sister were racially abused in the lobby of thier hotel. During the same trip they were racially abused in a public park, including by a child of no more than 6 who was spurred on by its amused parents. What my wife partilularly recalls is that despite lots of locals witnessing both events none stood up for them or offered any kind of support. Some clearly found the incidents amusing.
Later, at 18 years old she went to
Melbourne again for her sisters graduation. Another trip of about a week. During this trip she had two in in incidents of being attacked physically, food thrown at them and being spat upon, along with the abuse.
So, despite her knowing about the stats, despite her knowing malaysians who moved to Oz and live there very happily, her personal experienced override all else.
I can understand that. Of course one must blame the minority of Australians who are racist, but it is important that the majority let the minority know


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

Oops.
The majority should let the minority know which side they are on. If you see someone being a abused, stand up for the victim. It is not good enough to let your racists get away with it and to tell the victims that most Shadows are not racist.


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## _Sarah_ (Jun 27, 2011)

rifleman said:


> Oops.
> The majority should let the minority know which side they are on. If you see someone being a abused, stand up for the victim. It is not good enough to let your racists get away with it and to tell the victims that most Shadows are not racist.


If it makes you feel better I am someone who would have stood up for your wife, I'm sorry that she had to go through that.

There is awareness in Australia that we need to change our attitudes. Especially on the topic of "boat people", there's a TV series that was just finished called "Go back to where you came from" on SBS or ABC (I forget), and it puts Australians from different social backgrounds through the experience of boat people, and their lives are changed. It was really about encouraging compassion about refuges, and in general it makes you think about all migrants and racial peace.


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

Sarah, no need to make me feel better and realistically Oz is a lost cause insofar as my wife goes.
My main point is that statistics mean little or nothing to the victims of racism. It is the experience which causes them to feel how they do.

I am sure you can understand that telling my wife what good blokes most aussies are does not alter what she experienced. It doesn't matter to her that most of you are good blokes. The way she tells the stories eit is clear, 15 years after the last incident, that they were quite traumatic.

She once put it like this. "if I got raped on the underground do you think I'd get on the tube again, even if it had never happened to anyone else?"


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## _Sarah_ (Jun 27, 2011)

rifleman said:


> I am sure you can understand that telling my wife what good blokes most aussies are does not alter what she experienced. It doesn't matter to her that most of you are good blokes. The way she tells the stories eit is clear, 15 years after the last incident, that they were quite traumatic.


I understand completely and I wouldn't expect her to change. All we can hope for is that no one has to go through the same experience, and that, like all things, will change slowly...I hope you are both happy together still. Maybe our children will experience a better world


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## oz_sg10 (Aug 31, 2010)

I have not seen so much negative energy in this forum in my one year of being here, and that is the very reason why I wanted to find out the reason for your frustration and hence checked your posts. Looks like you were punched on your face by some Aussie guy because of your attitude? and that made you run away from here to Kuwait again to be punched by an arab soon who probably doesnt even let you keep your passport with you. 

And I do not think I am an Aussie - I am am proud indian, but I am willing to acknowledge the drawbacks of both countries, not belittle another country to cover up the drawbacks of my own.



indian_in_da_house said:


> You know what. Its Indian **** like you with allegiances to foreigners that are the main reason why our country is in the mess that it is in right now.
> Who are you to pass judgements on where I studied or where I'm working or where I'm planning to go or what I might say in the future? Just because I support my country doesnt mean I have to be living there. You find nationalistic values in many eastern europeans living in the USA or Australia. You really think you are a true blue aussie mate? Go ask the real aussies if they consider you as family. They'll probably punch your dog like face in by the time you're done. I just spoke about my experiences in Australia and adviced the OP that Canada is better. Its just a personal opinion n I stand by it. Ofcourse I know that the majority of Australians are not racist thugs. But the percentage of their racist minority is higher than USA and Canada. And they are also very uncouth n in your face.
> btw why dont you just worry bout your own life instead of stalking other peoples posts n profiles for some irrelevant info?


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## oz_sg10 (Aug 31, 2010)

and "dog like face" kind of comments is uncalled for, and it really shows that you are showing your standard (with India's name on it) on a global forum. I do not wish to pollute this forum, and am stopping this conversation here. 



indian_in_da_house said:


> You know what. Its Indian **** like you with allegiances to foreigners that are the main reason why our country is in the mess that it is in right now.
> Who are you to pass judgements on where I studied or where I'm working or where I'm planning to go or what I might say in the future? Just because I support my country doesnt mean I have to be living there. You find nationalistic values in many eastern europeans living in the USA or Australia. You really think you are a true blue aussie mate? Go ask the real aussies if they consider you as family. They'll probably punch your dog like face in by the time you're done. I just spoke about my experiences in Australia and adviced the OP that Canada is better. Its just a personal opinion n I stand by it. Ofcourse I know that the majority of Australians are not racist thugs. But the percentage of their racist minority is higher than USA and Canada. And they are also very uncouth n in your face.
> btw why dont you just worry bout your own life instead of stalking other peoples posts n profiles for some irrelevant info?


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## armandra (Nov 27, 2009)

indian_in_da_house said:


> You know what. Its Indian **** like you with allegiances to foreigners that are the main reason why our country is in the mess that it is in right now.


So, you mean to say since you neither in India at the moment nor do you intend to be in the near future, it's because of people like you that India is in shambles these days, right? 



> Who are you to pass judgements on where I studied or where I'm working or where I'm planning to go or what I might say in the future?


No one except you is passing judgements. You really think sensible people in here have the time and mental energy for passing judgements about senseless, uncultured and truly not-worth-for-the-time-sort-of-people like you? Naaaaah.



> I just spoke about my experiences in Australia and adviced the OP that Canada is better.


It's 'advised' and not 'adviced' as you might have thought and since you really don't know what you talk, there's hardly any proof needed to prove otherwise.



> Its just a personal opinion n I stand by it. Ofcourse I know that the majority of Australians are not racist thugs. But the percentage of their racist minority is higher than USA and Canada. And they are also very uncouth n in your face.
> btw why dont you just worry bout your own life instead of stalking other peoples posts n profiles for some irrelevant info?


As long as you can stalk someone's threads, barging in with the most uncourteous ways, then this is what you ought to be expecting from others.

P.S: Next time you think of writing something, only a spell check isn't enough for you, try to find something which would check your grammar as well. See ya! 


armandra!


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## Pradiprn (Jul 21, 2011)

I am sure that this getleman is in violation of forum rules and hence this would call for action. Having said that I would recommend that we ignore this fella and focus on the discussion that the thread originally was started for.


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## EE-India (May 16, 2009)

_Sarah_ said:


> What about your friend who said this?:


I am much happy to have open discussion including using the personal names but I was stopped in other thread for being very specific about some nationality, I am wondering how people are simply watching now


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## EE-India (May 16, 2009)

Weebie said:


> As someone who has worked in the engineering sector and spent considerable time in Calgary


You worked in CALGARY as an ENGINEER WOW!! How many job you did and how many country you worked!!

Here is your real face 

*Opinion on Australia *

“Australian in general is more dangerous than Britain, the whole it's a better place to bring up kids is a complete and utter myth. Also cheap...there is no such thing as cheap in Australia and if you do go down the cheap route (even with pretty looking houses) your area will most likely be a slum”

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/au...red-looking-move-down-under-young-family.html

*Desperately looking for bartender or waitress job in US *

“I work in sales and am well aware of a downturn in the states but heaps of jobs seem to be going on craigslist atm is the economy getting better and also if worse comes to worse and i just need any jobs like bartending or waiter is it hard to get these? I don't really don't care if I haev to do these jobs for a while I'm f**king over the boganism subculture and just general b*ll**** that Australia provides to me every day. It's a very overrated nation”

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/am...iving-america/29477-ausse-moving-america.html

*Doing LLB in Australia *

“I'm finishing off my LLB (well two years) so I don't have the experience, but my understanding is that Canada is no way near as Cut throat as the US. But similar to Australia there are accreditations which essentially mean a couple units such as constitution and few Canadian law units which need to be completed. The process is quite streamlined to common law countries like Britain, Australia and Ireland”

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/au...304-canadian-lawyer-qualifying-australia.html

*Livid in London *

“London is actually quite cheap IMO I've lived there on a similar wage than you. 55k is comfortable and you will be fine, I was still able to booze it up every night on that wage”

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/britain-expat-forum-expats-living-uk/76393-decent-salary.html

*Finally Engineer in Canada *

It appears like you never belong to any of these countries and probably an A***can, simply hacking this forum with misleading information 


Unlike you, I know what I am talking about and I am posting some evidence here 

The contact that I refer to is working for Imperial Oil Canada, as Senior Engineer and looking after all the brown field projects handled by WorleyParsons. 

Here is the some of the calls I received (attachment), did nothing Just posted profile in Linked in Profile. Canada is much better in term of employment at least in Oil & Gas, cost of living is less and there are ways to bring down the Tax to unbelievable level, but the biggest concern is the weather .Much difficult for Asians to hope up in the initials days 

BTW do you know what is Avg salary for a senior engineer working in Oil & Gas here in Australia !


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

indian_in_da_house sounds very angry. Not to play the devil's advocate, but no amount of posting on a public forum will make his experiences go away. Truth is, that was his bad experience and as far as *he's* concerned, he's learned from it. 

The only way that he can "unlearn" the negativity and stop blaming an entire society (country, etc) is to seek psychological help. This is not an insult, by the way - many people go through very bad experiences and require some sort of professional help. Bad experiences happen to people all the time. The key is to learn how to cope with it. It's really sad, but blaming entire societies and returning hate will only corrode the person him/herself from the inside out.


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## hari999999 (Mar 17, 2009)

_Sarah_ said:


> Hi,
> 
> Do you have first-hand experience of racism in either Canada or Australia? Or are you getting your information from inreliable, over-exaggerated stories in the media?
> 
> ...


What i told is a NAKED TRUTH that is real.

In the past 3 years i read alot about Racism in this forum and not posted any reply about Racism because of no experience. But now i have lots of experience.
Well i was also in Canada for some time and no need to write a reply from any media report. Also my brother is staying in USA.

Americans and Canadians are more flexible to other people when compared to British and Australians especially in case of racism ( dont mean all are racist)

The simple example is how broadminded they are is just a look at WHite house who is in chair.
Special thanks to EE India and Indian da house for adding further informations.


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## Weebie (Sep 16, 2009)

armandra said:


> So, you mean to say since you neither in India at the moment nor do you intend to be in the near future, it's because of people like you that India is in shambles these days, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't say I worked in Calgary I said I visited for a few weeks. I had a job offer lined up and a visa but it fell through with the downturn. If you read my posts properly you would find I didn't attack India, I just said that Indians struggle to get work in America in Canada compared to Australia.

I've done many things over things over the years and for the record I'm completing a Business and Law degree at the moment here in Perth.


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## _Sarah_ (Jun 27, 2011)

hari999999 said:


> What i told is a NAKED TRUTH that is real.
> Americans and Canadians are more flexible to other people when compared to British and Australians especially in case of racism ( dont mean all are racist)
> 
> The simple example is how broadminded they are is just a look at WHite house who is in chair.
> Special thanks to EE India and Indian da house for adding further informations.


Good for you  No sweat off my back. I myself would not make an opinion about a whole population, including making a positive opinion, but if that's how you work, go ahead  Have a good life in Canada or the USA, hell, why not live half your life in both? God forbid you ever come across racism there, it might burst your bubble


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## ozthedream (Dec 31, 2010)

hi Hari 

good to know that you had encountered actual experiences of being treated 'differently' for being an indian - am sure many of us are eager to know sme of them .. please do share 














hari999999 said:


> What i told is a NAKED TRUTH that is real.
> 
> In the past 3 years i read alot about Racism in this forum and not posted any reply about Racism because of no experience. But now i have lots of experience.
> Well i was also in Canada for some time and no need to write a reply from any media report. Also my brother is staying in USA.
> ...


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

_Sarah_ said:


> Have a good life in Canada or the USA, hell, why not live half your life in both? God forbid you ever come across racism there, it might burst your bubble


Agree

It's understandable why people who complain about racism would blame an entire country or people. Their experience is like that of a woman who gets attacked in her home: She may want to move out of her house because the house reminds her of the attack, even though the house itself has nothing to do with her experience. But when you get to that level, you really do need to seek help.

Sadly, racism exists everywhere. Some people are just more prudent about their feelings, but it can come out in very subtle ways. For instance, if you try to get housing or work in certain areas, they won't give it to you - they'll politely say, "Oh, we already have someone else in mind". Or maybe they may give you a job, but they'll not pay you what they would pay a person of the preferred race/gender, etc. You may not get promoted, but may have to train someone else with less experience who will get promoted over you. The list goes on. So why run away or categorize a group of people when you will confront the same problem elsewhere? The best thing to do is to seek help in coping and managing your feelings. Clearly, not everyone is a racist, but it does exist everywhere - and is practiced by everyone, not only males or whites.


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

indian_in_da_house said:


> I disagree. You are suggesting that people who say that there is a racial problem in a place should go for counseling. You should have probably told that to the African Americans during the civil rights movement in the 60's. Some people love to come out with those kind of statements...hey its all in your head man. everything's cool when the reality is different. Sometimes we have to fight for our right to be treated well in a society. Sarah herself admitted about different ethnic groups struggling to integrate in Australia and thats whats happening to Indians there at this point whereas in places like Canada they have moved past that stage. There is also a difference between people who show racist tendencies openly vs covert ones. The former leaves deeper scars on the victims whereas the latter it mostly goes unnoticed like in your place... the USA.




I think you've misunderstood me. I didn't say that people who have experienced racism should go for counseling, only those who have become somewhat traumatized by the experience. Some people go through some sort of discrimination, but are able to overcome it. Discrimination exists everywhere, and you can't change how people feel, but you can change how you'll let it affect you. Just telling you now so you won't be disappointed if you ever run into an incident here or in Canada.



> Some people say you have to give credit to Australians for their honesty about their racial aggressiveness. Let me ask you this.Would you rather say that a certain woman is ugly in front of her or behind her back? I think people who tell it behind her back are more civilized than the ones who tell her straight to her face. In this case honesty is definitely not the best policy.


No absolutely not. I think that would be rude. BUT, you keep missing the point - not *all* Australians are like that, so why keep lumping?


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

stormgal said:


> I think you've misunderstood me. I didn't say that people who have experienced racism should go for counseling, only those who have become somewhat traumatized by the experience. Some people go through some sort of discrimination, but are able to overcome it. Discrimination exists everywhere, and you can't change how people feel, but you can change how you'll let it affect you. Just telling you now so you won't be disappointed if you ever run into an incident here or in Canada.
> 
> No absolutely not. I think that would be rude. BUT, you keep missing the point - not *all* Australians are like that, so why keep lumping?


But you do seem to be saying that if you encounter racism in one place and are traumatised by it you should not deal with it by going somewhere else.

I don't see why not. As I have explained elsewhere my wifes experience of Australia convinced her that it was the most racist place on earth. She could have chosen to pay to study there, but could see no merit in doing so and living with the fear of being abused again. Instead she came to the UK which, in her mind and in her personal experience, isn't in the slightest bit racist.
As I said before, the victims don't care about statistics. All they care about is being somewhere they feel safe and welcomed.


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

rifleman said:


> But you do seem to be saying that if you encounter racism in one place and are traumatised by it you should not deal with it by going somewhere else.
> 
> I don't see why not. As I have explained elsewhere my wifes experience of Australia convinced her that it was the most racist place on earth. She could have chosen to pay to study there, but could see no merit in doing so and living with the fear of being abused again. Instead she came to the UK which, in her mind and in her personal experience, isn't in the slightest bit racist.
> As I said before, the victims don't care about statistics. All they care about is being somewhere they feel safe and welcomed.


Yes, that is understandable. If someone wants to leave, no one can stop them. But how many people are able to "up and go" whenever something happens in their home towns? Not everyone has that luxury. Couple that with the problem being prevalent in many places, will you actually be running away from it?


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

Stormgal. Of course not everyone has the choice and plainly it is running away from a problem. But for those who have the choice it is a perfectly good one. Confronting a problem or fear is far from being the only or even the best solution.

Your posts imply that if you fall off a horse the thing to do is to get back on it. I am merely pointing out that an alternative is to find another mode of transport and leave horse riding to others.


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

rifleman said:


> Stormgal. Of course not everyone has the choice and plainly it is running away from a problem. But for those who have the choice it is a perfectly good one. Confronting a problem or fear is far from being the only or even the best solution.
> 
> Your posts imply that if you fall off a horse the thing to do is to get back on it. I am merely pointing out that an alternative is to find another mode of transport and leave horse riding to others.



You've read me right. I don't tend to quit, I'm more of a fighter. :boxing:

But please don't think that I am discounting your wife's experience - or the other experiences here. I was bullied in grade school and know what type of effect abuse can have on one's overall being.


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

Ah, had some of that at school myself, not very common to be a white kid with a black brother and a single mum back in the East End of London in the 60's.
Please don't take this personally but your reaction to being bullied (mine was the same until I had some other formative experiences as a soldier) by fighting back, is just as illogical and reactionary as running away. Pretty basic that flight or fight thing.
I have mates who had the same experiences as me and have been diagnosed with ptsd, and benefit from counselling/sharing. I have the occasional nightmare but prefer to forget the bad stuff insofar as I can. We all deal with things differently. Sometimes we deal with them in a logical way, but often we do what our instinct tells us.
Suprising how well instinct works.


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

rifleman said:


> Ah, had some of that at school myself, not very common to be a white kid with a black brother and a single mum back in the East End of London in the 60's.
> Please don't take this personally but your reaction to being bullied (mine was the same until I had some other formative experiences as a soldier) by fighting back, is just as illogical and reactionary as running away. Pretty basic that flight or fight thing.
> I have mates who had the same experiences as me and have been diagnosed with ptsd, and benefit from counselling/sharing. I have the occasional nightmare but prefer to forget the bad stuff insofar as I can. We all deal with things differently. Sometimes we deal with them in a logical way, but often we do what our instinct tells us.
> Suprising how well instinct works.


Ah yes, East End London - definitely can compare to my growing up in the poorer sections of NYC 

Well, I guess we can agree that people have their own unique ways in coping with their experiences. I wasn't really trying to say one way is right and another is wrong, though. Just that I feel that if it affects us in a way where we "punish" or hold in contempt entire countries, races, etc - then we really are no different than those who have started the hatred to begin with. But yes, I see your point.

Anyways, have to go, be nice people! :tongue1:


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2011)

I think its time to change the flow of the conversation slightly. So, how many people have been bitten by *FEMINISM* as opposed to racism and how would you compare Australia with Canada in this matter?????

   
   
:boxing::boxing::boxing::boxing:


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## pcrial (Sep 27, 2010)

*Against al odds*

Small minds sometimes arrive at very limiting opinions. Bigotry and racial hatred are the products of these small minds. Of course, once we acknowledge this, it becomes imperative to be sure that our mind is not guilty of being small.

We set our own limits in our mind. We can either accept or reject the opinions of small minds. If we reject these opinions, then we can form new ones, broader, and without the limits of the first.

Nick Vujicic, is an Australian that has helped many people to overcome the limits set by their own minds. If this guy can do it, so can anyone else. We should never accept the limits placed on us by others.





Like Nick, we can overcome prejudice, and even the limits imposed by small minds, by just adopting a different mindset.

Cheers,


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## _Sarah_ (Jun 27, 2011)

Feminism? hmm, I'm a young woman and I haven't experienced sexism in school or work or any institution. 
The only sexism I have encountered is from certain men. These are stupid men who are just as dump as those air-headed ****ty looking girls. Stupid girls do worse things to damage feminist values than men 

I think we're still talking in Australia about the difference in pay between men and women, and the "glass ceiling", ie: women not being able to reach as many high positions as men, such as being CEO's. However, in regards to pay I have never encountered that issue, and I'd like to see the statistics because as far as I know, for example, men and women university lecutres earn the same amount...




leptokurtic said:


> I think its time to change the flow of the conversation slightly. So, how many people have been bitten by *FEMINISM* as opposed to racism and how would you compare Australia with Canada in this matter?????
> 
> 
> 
> :boxing::boxing::boxing::boxing:


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## ozthedream (Dec 31, 2010)

thanks pcrial 

posters - this debate that commenced on whether oz was a better place to migrate compared to canada was surely not started as a debate on which country is more racist and hence less livable as it is a never ending debate and a matter of personal prejudices , experiences and mindsets . some people have own negative exp, others have their partners with bad experiences and yet others just believe hearsay , so this will never culminate in .. and the winner is ,,,!

request that comparisons be done on more occupation and jobs possibilities, salary scales , education, health , community consciouness,economic growth,cost of living , ease of PR / citizenship etc 

climate is well debated with canada having not a chance vs oz .

the option to continue the debate as now is yours but please - real xperiences please and no conjectures


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## Kwamawingu (Apr 12, 2011)

rekha.mcnutt said:


> I am also Canadian and seriously contemplating a move to Aus! As shallow as it sounds, our motivations are weather related as well. I woke up to a lawn full of snow from a hail storm last night... IT'S AUGUST of crying out loud...the peak of "summer" lol I live in Calgary.
> 
> The advantages I can see (only from the research I've done) is cost of living. Incomes seem to be higher while things cost much less. Proximity to the US, where costs are even lower, helps with this, I think. That being said, it obviously varies depending on what part of either country you live in.


I agree about the cost of living, the thing is, do you want "stuff" or an incredible place to live? We moved here from the US 11 years ago. It can be nice to do a bit of shopping when I go back for visits, but I could never live there again. Where are you thinking of moving to?


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## varunsal (Aug 17, 2011)

Similar dilemma, thanks for all the info here...!!


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

leptokurtic said:


> I think its time to change the flow of the conversation slightly. So, how many people have been bitten by *FEMINISM* as opposed to racism and how would you compare Australia with Canada in this matter?????
> 
> 
> 
> :boxing::boxing::boxing::boxing:


Woo hooo! I guess we have no words of consolation for you guys, so get over it LOL :tongue1:

*Forbes Most Powerful Women:*

- Angela Merkel, Chancellor, Germany

- Cher Wang Cofounder, Chair, HTC; VIA Technologies, Taiwan

- Julia Gillard, Prime Minister, Australia

- Hillary Clinton, Secretary of State, United States

- Dilma Rousseff, President, Brazil

- Indra Nooyi, Chief Executive, PepsiCo, United States

- Sheryl Sandberg COO, Facebook ,United States

- Melinda Gates, Cofounder, Cochair, Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, United States

- Sonia Gandhi, President, India

- Michelle Obama, First Lady, United States

- Christine Lagarde, Managing Director, International Monetary Fund

- Irene Rosenfeld, CEO, Kraft Foods United States

- Georgina Rinehart, Mining Tycoon, Australia

- Gail Kelly, CEO, Westpac Group, Australia


:clap2:

:tongue1::tongue1:


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

You missed my wife off that list. That's power! Sorry, have to go do the washing up now.


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## Guest (Aug 28, 2011)

stormgal said:


> Woo hooo! I guess we have no words of consolation for you guys, so get over it LOL :tongue1:
> 
> *Forbes Most Powerful Women:*
> 
> ...


Dear Stormgal,

I was looking for experiences of being bitten by feminism. So until and unless one of these girls comes over to Australia and bites me -> :croc: <- a list of their names doesn't answer my question :rofl:


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## Dorry (Jun 21, 2011)

Hi. I am a South African and lived in Canada for 7 years. 

You struggle to get a family doctor and has to settle with what you get after waiting a few years. In the meantime you have to go to the walk in clinic or hospital and wait for hours. No dental from the government. 

We Hated the weather and you are only a number there. Winter in Ontario is about 7 months then it rains for about 2 months and then summer. Then every park and camp area is overcrowded because you only have a few months of sunshine. People don’t care about you and many are miserable because of the weather and ALWAYS complain. The summers are very short and it gets very hot and humid then they complain again. Racism is alive and well in Canada, never could believe that I am from South Africa and I’m white and then accuse us of slavery and racism. Wonder why the Native Canadians (Indians) stay on the reserves and pays half the tax on foods etc than the rest of the people. 

We are busy immigrating to OZ and I’m sure we will love it there.

Good luck with your choice. If you need more info I will gladly help.


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## Dorry (Jun 21, 2011)

karishpt said:


> Hello,
> 
> I need help do decide where to migrate. Me & my husband want to migrate from Dubai(current location) to either Australia or Canada but are unable to decide which country to relocate. :confused2:
> 
> ...


Hi. I am a South African and lived in Canada for 7 years. 

You struggle to get a family doctor and has to settle with what you get after waiting a few years. In the meantime you have to go to the walk in clinic or hospital and wait for hours. No dental from the government. 

We Hated the weather and you are only a number there. Winter in Ontario is about 7 months then it rains for about 2 months and then summer. Then every park and camp area is overcrowded because you only have a few months of sunshine. People don’t care about you and many are miserable because of the weather and ALWAYS complain. The summers are very short and it gets very hot and humid then they complain again. Racism is alive and well in Canada, never could believe that I am from South Africa and I’m white and then accuse us of slavery and racism. Wonder why the Native Canadians (Indians) stay on the reserves and pays half the tax on foods etc than the rest of the people. 

We are busy immigrating to OZ and I’m sure we will love it there.

Good luck with your choice. If you need more info I will gladly help.


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## ycha165 (Aug 24, 2011)

Heya,

Wife and I also had the same dilemma deciding between Canada or Australia after working in Europe and Asia. Have travelled/lived in both countries. What made us decide on Australia finally was the fact that we have family over in NZ. We are thinking about starting a family in the next few years so proximity to family ended up being a deciding factor for us.


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

Dorry said:


> Racism is alive and well in Canada, never could believe that I am from South Africa and I’m white and then accuse us of slavery and racism. Wonder why the Native Canadians (Indians) stay on the reserves and pays half the tax on foods etc than the rest of the people. .


sounds like a personal problem to me


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## TheEndofDays (Apr 13, 2011)

Chill guys! 

You want a taste of xenophobia? You may want to visit us here in Singapore where foreigners are often called "foreign trash" (even if you become a PR or a citizen) by the locals in online forums and news sites. IMHO I haven't seen this much expat bashing in OZ or Canadian sites as compared to SG ( correct me if I'm wrong).

In the end, this is one of the risks we aspiring expats must be willing to take. We don't move to another country ONLY to experience a change in weather patterns and still expecting the comforts of our country of origin. Caution must be exercised at all times...


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2011)

TheEndofDays said:


> Chill guys!
> 
> You want a taste of xenophobia? You may want to visit us here in Singapore where foreigners are often called "foreign trash" (even if you become a PR or a citizen) by the locals in online forums and news sites. IMHO I haven't seen this much expat bashing in OZ or Canadian sites as compared to SG ( correct me if I'm wrong).
> 
> In the end, this is one of the risks we aspiring expats must be willing to take. We don't move to another country ONLY to experience a change in weather patterns and still expecting the comforts of our country of origin. Caution must be exercised at all times...


And I have been wondering WHY people are leaving high paying jobs in Singapore and moving to Australia. NOW I get it...


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## SunnyBreeze (Jul 11, 2009)

I'm an Asian-Canadian, currently living in Australia. Much like many others, I moved here primarily for the warmer climate, but my plan has always been to go back to Canada eventually (where all my family and friends are). 

Climate - yes Australia is much better, but I'm from Vancouver where the weather is generally mild compared to the rest of Canada. It does rain a lot, but we get 4 seasons. Summer is beautiful but short, fall means gorgeous coloured leaves, winter you can go snowboarding and skiing, and spring we've got beautiful cherry blossoms. I've always been a summer type of person so I prefer the weather in Sydney. Having said that, winters here ARE cold and most older houses don't have central heating here, so being inside is actually VERY cold in the winters. In Canada, every house is built with central heating. The image that everyone has of Sydney being hot all year round is false advertising. 

Economy -- Aus seems to be doing okay compared to many other countries. There are lots of jobs in Sydney and even basic admin jobs pay a lot higher here than in Canada, but that's because the cost of living is very high here. I'm still dumbfounded by the prices here sometimes and don't think I'll ever get used to it. 

Shopping -- is terrible in Australia. High prices and low selection. It's no wonder everyone is shopping online (but shipping to australia costs an arm and a leg too). Particularly when it comes to clothing, I find that decent clothing is very expensive -- too expensive, but the items that are affordable are of TERRIBLE quality. Basically it's very extreme -- affordable but cheap quality and style, or very nice but very expensive. There's no middle ground. I've pretty much given up on shopping here. 

Travel -- it's bloody expensive to get out of Australia! When Aussies say "it's super cheap to go to Bali", they are still talking about a $800 round trip ticket (from sydney) on sale. That doesnt' include accomodation, food, etc. Now I haven't been to Bali yet, but I'm told your expenses there aren't bad because everything is cheaper, but just remember that the flight alone is $800. This price doubles during Christmas holidays. If you compare this to Canada, I think Canada wins. $800 can you get a 1-week all inclusive pkg to Mexico, Cuba, Dominican Republic. It's even cheaper if you are flying out of Toronto. Flights to other destinations (from Vancouver): NY - $600, LA $300-400, London $1000, Shanghai $1000. You can get 4 day packages to vegas with air and accomodations for $300-400. To get to LOndon from Sydney can be 2K or more and almost 24 hours! Australia is a very isolated place and it's not easy to travel to/from. 

People -- very similar cultures. In Sydney there are lots of expats, students, immigrants from everywhere. I find Aussies to be a bit more racist, but not in any overt way. Or maybe the better way to describe it is that the white australian vs. other cultures is not as integrated as compared ot Vancouver and Toronto. 

Sports -- I'm not a big sports fan, but can say this much: aussie's love their sports, particularly AFL, Cricket, and Rugby. You won't be watching any of those in Canada. It's all about HOCKEY! And some NBA and NFL and maybe even some MLB. In general, Canada is heavily influenced by the US. 

Accents -- Canada wins, hands down!!!

Hope that helps!


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## SunnyBreeze (Jul 11, 2009)

oops double posted .


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

Do the vegetables in Canada get spoiled when you keep them in the refrigerator for three months? I ask because I have heard that the veggies in America (for example) will keep for three months without spoiling because of all the radiation and chemicals and genetic mutations they have gone through. Is Canada similar to this? Do you get fresh milk or is it all bottled/canned/processed milk?


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## ricks1088 (Mar 10, 2011)

SunnyBreeze said:


> I'm an Asian-Canadian, currently living in Australia. Much like many others, I moved here primarily for the warmer climate, but my plan has always been to go back to Canada eventually (where all my family and friends are).
> 
> Climate - yes Australia is much better, but I'm from Vancouver where the weather is generally mild compared to the rest of Canada. It does rain a lot, but we get 4 seasons. Summer is beautiful but short, fall means gorgeous coloured leaves, winter you can go snowboarding and skiing, and spring we've got beautiful cherry blossoms. I've always been a summer type of person so I prefer the weather in Sydney. Having said that, winters here ARE cold and most older houses don't have central heating here, so being inside is actually VERY cold in the winters. In Canada, every house is built with central heating. The image that everyone has of Sydney being hot all year round is false advertising.
> 
> ...


That was a very nice and balanced post!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

ricks1088 said:


> That was a very nice and balanced post!


Actually, if you read closely, you will see it tips the balance slightly in Canada's favor by saying white Australians are not very well integrated...


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## JBY (May 17, 2011)

I don't think in 2 years it will matter anymore where you immigrate, the question is now, CAN YOU IMMIGRATE ? 

Canada has already pretty much closed down its Skilled immigration program (visa cap and v small list of occupations) and Australia , NZ & other nations are soon to Follow in the coming years.

Unless of course you have a job offer from these nations or tons of cash (emphasis on the TONS) .


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

leptokurtic said:


> Do the vegetables in Canada get spoiled when you keep them in the refrigerator for three months? I ask because I have heard that the veggies in America (for example) will keep for three months without spoiling because of all the radiation and chemicals and genetic mutations they have gone through. Is Canada similar to this? Do you get fresh milk or is it all bottled/canned/processed milk?


Yes, we all glow in the dark, and most of us are buried in concrete tombs fifty feet below the surface.  Seriously, I don't think anyone keeps fruits and vegetables in the refrigerator for three months, that wouldn't be hygienic! And stop believing those urban legends!


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2011)

stormgal said:


> Yes, we all glow in the dark, and most of us are buried in concrete tombs fifty feet below the surface.  Seriously, I don't think anyone keeps fruits and vegetables in the refrigerator for three months, that wouldn't be hygienic! And stop believing those urban legends!


Well it does make you show yourself by posting a response  But seriously, we have this 'world famous' (OK, as world famous as we get here in Pakistan) newspaper called Dawn. And there is this writer named Anjum Niaz who is supposedly educated from Harvard who writes a weekly column called 'Dateline America' (although some weeks she tends to take a vacation). And some years ago, if I remember correctly, she wrote about how she forgot veggies in the refrigerator for three months and when she took them out they were as good as new. That's the reason I was asking. Are you telling me this is not the case???? Have you actually tried keeping 'em in the refrigerator for three months?? Could you run an experiment for us and post the results? And what about that Mac Donalds burger that a woman has been keeping for like 15 years and it hasn't spoilt???


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

leptokurtic said:


> Well it does make you show yourself by posting a response  But seriously, we have this 'world famous' (OK, as world famous as we get here in Pakistan) newspaper called Dawn. And there is this writer named Anjum Niaz who is supposedly educated from Harvard who writes a weekly column called 'Dateline America' (although some weeks she tends to take a vacation). And some years ago, if I remember correctly, she wrote about how she forgot veggies in the refrigerator for three months and when she took them out they were as good as new. That's the reason I was asking. Are you telling me this is not the case???? Have you actually tried keeping 'em in the refrigerator for three months?? Could you run an experiment for us and post the results? And what about that Mac Donalds burger that a woman has been keeping for like 15 years and it hasn't spoilt???


Ohh, yes, I found it online lolol. Here's the link:

DAWN.COM | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, world news, business, sport and multimedia.

But I'm not about to keep that in my fridge just to post about it.  The ones I have kept spoiled after only a week! 

As for the hamburger, I heard the same thing but not about the meat - only the fries . It came out in a documentary - don't remember which one. Personally, I find McDonalds and the other fast food chains gross. (I hope I don't offend anyone who likes to eat at those places). Besides, I think it's best for all to support smaller business (or to eat at home) - it's healthier not only for you, but for the community


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## ae6 (Jan 30, 2009)

Sunnybreeze has put it really well. I agree entirely.

We have been living in Sydney for nearly 2 years and are strongly leaning towards moving to Canada for these reasons. (We also love skiing which is a big draw for us-skiing in Perisher/Thredbo in Australia is just not the same)


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

ae6 said:


> Sunnybreeze has put it really well. I agree entirely.
> 
> We have been living in Sydney for nearly 2 years and are strongly leaning towards moving to Canada for these reasons. (We also love skiing which is a big draw for us-skiing in Perisher/Thredbo in Australia is just not the same)


I agree that Canada is a very nice place. My family lives only a few hours away from the border as the State aligns with it. During certain times of the year, it looks so peaceful and beautiful - just like a snowglobe. But the cold is horrendous and cannot be underestimated. (I can hardly stand the cold from where I live - when we get that Canadian wintry blast down here - in the mornings it's very hard to get up and go out in it, and when you do, you feel like you're on a death march :yuck. If there is snow on the ground, you have to get up earlier and shovel your car out of it and that takes a tremendous amount of time and energy. But other than that, I agree that Canada is a beautiful place with friendly people and gorgeous land mass - with lots to do.


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## _Sarah_ (Jun 27, 2011)

stormgal said:


> As for the hamburger, I heard the same thing but not about the meat - only the fries . It came out in a documentary - don't remember which one.


I think it was in "Supersize me"  I remember that too.

Our vegetables usually get eaten within 2 weeks of us buying them. We keep them in the fridge except for potatoes, onions, garlic and sometimes tomatoes. A good carrot should snap when you bend it, but after a while they turn rubbery - you can still eat them however.

Carrots and pumpkin will last in the fride for up to a month, then they get a little bit yucky, but not moldy. The softer vegetables (zucchini, celery) aren't nice to eat once they've been in the fridge too long.

:focus: sorry!


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## pcrial (Sep 27, 2010)

stormgal said:


> I agree that Canada is a very nice place. My family lives only a few hours away from the border as the State aligns with it. During certain times of the year, it looks so peaceful and beautiful - just like a snowglobe. But the cold is horrendous and cannot be underestimated. (I can hardly stand the cold from where I live - when we get that Canadian wintry blast down here - in the mornings it's very hard to get up and go out in it, and when you do, you feel like you're on a death march :yuck. If there is snow on the ground, you have to get up earlier and shovel your car out of it and that takes a tremendous amount of time and energy. But other than that, I agree that Canada is a beautiful place with friendly people and gorgeous land mass - with lots to do.


I lived for 12 years north of Detroit. As an engineer, I made 30 plus working trips to Canada. I worked nearly up to the artic circle, but most trips were to various places in Ontario (many Toronto bergs), and Quebec

I learned how to survive in the sometimes extreme cold, but it is good to be retired in QLD sub-tropics. I've felt a bit cool here at times, but there is no chilled to the bone feeling. As for digging out my car, in Michigan, the year the ice storm took out power for 6 weeks, I had to chip my car out of a thick ice block. I finally got enough ice chipped away from the door to open it. I started the car and let it run with the defroster on for about 2 hours to melt the bulk of it away. I guess that is why I smirk when people here in QLD complain about it being cold enough to fog the car windows.  

I jokingly remark about seeing ice in the refrigerator freezer this morning.


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

_Sarah_ said:


> I think it was in "Supersize me"  I remember that too.
> 
> Our vegetables usually get eaten within 2 weeks of us buying them. We keep them in the fridge except for potatoes, onions, garlic and sometimes tomatoes. A good carrot should snap when you bend it, but after a while they turn rubbery - you can still eat them however.
> 
> ...


LOL, I remember now - I think it was that doco that made me not want to eat at McDonalds again. I think I'd only eat vegetables older than a month if we were in times of famine. 



pcrial said:


> I lived for 12 years north of Detroit. As an engineer, I made 30 plus working trips to Canada. I worked nearly up to the artic circle, but most trips were to various places in Ontario (many Toronto bergs), and Quebec
> 
> I learned how to survive in the sometimes extreme cold, but it is good to be retired in QLD sub-tropics. I've felt a bit cool here at times, but there is no chilled to the bone feeling. As for digging out my car, in Michigan, the year the ice storm took out power for 6 weeks, I had to chip my car out of a thick ice block. I finally got enough ice chipped away from the door to open it. I started the car and let it run with the defroster on for about 2 hours to melt the bulk of it away. I guess that is why I smirk when people here in QLD complain about it being cold enough to fog the car windows.
> 
> I jokingly remark about seeing ice in the refrigerator freezer this morning.


How can you possibly survive in that cold? Well, you're much stronger than I can ever be lol, that is one thing I will not miss about living up north. My family lives several hours from Ottawa, Ontario where the lowest temperature can drop down to -38F. Now that is torture. People shouldn't have to live like that! I agree it's a "chilled to the bone feeling". You can feel the skin sticking to your bones, but not your toes, fingers, or anything from your knees down - oh and the mucous just pours out of your nose like an opened tap - and what is that terrible inner ear ache of a headache?? 

No thank you. I'd much rather the heat! We had a short but intense heatwave this summer and I sure was not complaining like the rest of the people here, but highly thankful! ray2:


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## pcrial (Sep 27, 2010)

*Ottawa*



stormgal said:


> My family lives several hours from Ottawa, Ontario where the lowest temperature can drop down to -38F. :


I got as far East of Toronto as Belleville, but never quite to Ottawa, as you do not go there on the way to Montreal.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2011)

stormgal said:


> No thank you. I'd much rather the heat! We had a short but intense heatwave this summer and I sure was not complaining like the rest of the people here, but highly thankful! ray2:


You could have been talking about me!!! Give me as high a temperature as you please up to 43 degrees centigrade and I won't complain. I can't say about more than that since I haven't actually experienced such a temperature yet, but it is highly likely I will still prefer it to 8 degrees centigrade  Maybe I might visit the central Australian desert regions one day and experience such a temperature... of course I couldn't EVER do it in Canada, so that's one more Australia vs. Canada thing where Australia wins


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## Terry1961 (Sep 14, 2011)

*Australian's racism*



indian_in_da_house said:


> Hari is right...having lived in Australia for a while I can tell you that the racism there is unprecedented. By racism im not talking bout being killed or assaulted eventhough that happened to a lot of indians back in 2009. And I'm not saying all australians are racists coz thats not true even during those colonial times. Good people exist everywhere. But by saying that australia is racist im just talkin bout the general culture there n whats considered acceptable in that society. There is a general opinion that indians as a whole are a menace n should be laughed at. They call us "turdskins". Look at what their team did in the commonwealth games. They are not politically correct at all n they might even tell you to go home openly which many americans n canadians will be polite enough to not say out loud. But the prejudice n hate your gonna experience there is insane especially if you are an indian or sri lankan or any of those types. For example :- They avoid sitting next to you in subways n other places coz of the usual "oh those indians smell" stereotype. Some of them might see you in the elevator n then decide hey i want some exercise so I think i will take the stairs. Or if you try to go to a club n the bouncer gives you that look that says....please go back to your own country. Or if you make a small mistake the officer or whoever is in charge will be pissed off n talk rudely n pounce on you hard. Coz deep down its not the mistake that you made but the fact that you are indian that pisses them off a lot more. All these incidents can't be proven but the implicit racism n prejudice is very much alive n kicking. Dont go there. Canada is much better when it comes to this issue hands down. Go ahead n thumb down this post. I just spoke bout my experience.


If Japan in the World War II attacked Australia instead of attacking China, at that time the whole British Navy Fleet was not capable of defending Australia. After Japanese occupation, perhaps, they would change.

Now, there is another hope which is one day when China beats up America due to the issue in Taiwan's independence. Otherwise, the Whites never value Asians.


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2011)

Terry1961 said:


> If Japan in the World War II attacked Australia instead of attacking China, at that time the whole British Navy Fleet was not capable of defending Australia. After Japanese occupation, perhaps, they would change.
> 
> Now, there is another hope which is one day when China beats up America due to the issue in Taiwan's independence. Otherwise, the Whites never value Asians.


And I hope you realize that your words are 100% pure hate speech. There is no useful information anyone can glean from it.


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## stormgal (Sep 30, 2009)

leptokurtic said:


> And I hope you realize that your words are 100% pure hate speech. There is no useful information anyone can glean from it.


Exactly. People like that have a lot of hatred in their hearts- it's an emotional problem that no one can really fix for them. I don't even bother - they're better off left avoided.


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## EE-India (May 16, 2009)

SunnyBreeze said:


> I'm an Asian-Canadian, currently living in Australia


Hi 

Somehow I assumed that your vast living experience in Canada can help me on this 

I intent to move to Canada, not immediately now but within next 12 to 18 months and live there for at least 2 years. Can you help me to identify the suitable place 

*My Expectations *

Manageable climate for Asians (I know I am talking about coldest part of the planet, however I need to look for best among the worst!!)

Reasonable cost of living

Affordable housing market (for the long term investment prospective if I am able to do so)

Options for Asian festivals, temple and shopping 


I work in Oil & Gas industry and from my research I managed to get the list of cities that can offer very good employment for my background, this is preferred however you are welcome to suggest any place that suits me 

*Preferred *

Calgary – AB
Edmonton – AB
Fort McMurray - AB
St.John`s- NL
Halifax – NS
Vancouver & Toronto (Least preferred because of limited opportunity for Oil & Gas)

Once again thanks for your valuable contribution to this thread


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## segujjat (Sep 20, 2011)

*ihope canada is good*

MY dear i would wish you to go Canada i have heard its peaceful and convenient for work but where as you want to leave dubai, personally i want to come to Dubai for employment coz in our country Uganda there are no jobs but i have tried all i can to come but in vain, i have a degree in human resource management from makerere university i don't mind which job i can do as along as it can earn me money to look for my mum and my brother,s children who died last month. which advise dear can you have for me . i wish i can get a company to pay for my travel






I need help do decide where to migrate. Me & my husband want to migrate from Dubai(current location) to either Australia or Canada but are unable to decide which country to relocate. :confused2:

Need max inputs as possible.

Thank u all in advance..! 
Karish[/QUOTE]


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## dreama (Nov 24, 2010)

having recently left Canada for Australia, I just love it here in Australia. I love the weather and the wages in NT are pretty good, about what I would get paid in northern Canada, only without 9 months of a long cold dark winter. I have lived all over Canada, and the climate is probably the only thing I really don't like about Canada. This past winter I've spent in Alice Springs is like ALL of the best days of every summer I ever spent in Canada combined. Of course, depending on where you live in Australia, the climate is very different, but I just love living in the outback of central Australia. I love my homeland of Canada, but boy the winters can be harsh and miserable just about anywhere, and I've lived all over Canada, coast to coast, north and south. I even tried the milder winters of Vancouver Island and the rain that came for months was even more depressing than long cold winters. 

As for the racism - I'd say things are pretty much the same in Australia as they are in Canada, depending on where you are - rural or urban. Anywhere there is a huge influx of immigrants, I think you'll find locals who isn't happy immigrants are there and have clearly forgotten their family has also immigrated at some point in their ancestry.


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## EE-India (May 16, 2009)

I think it is inappropriate to compare Australian income with Canada unless we take account of Australian expenses as well. Alice spring is a small dot in gigantic Australia map but we rent a 4 bed room house for 600 AUD / week (in other words 2500 CAD / month). I assume this is what called high inflation. Remember this is not Vancouver or Sydney, it is a tiny rural town with 25K people 

Even in my case Canadian salary may be 10% less but cost of living and other benefits like tax saving nowhere comparable 

Weather is the stopping point for many people , no second thought


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## JBY (May 17, 2011)

I just don't get it when people talk about migrating to Canada , ppl talk about it like they gonna move across town next day...If you don't have a job offer in Canada (including PNP) its next to Impossible to immigrate, or you are in that puny 29 Occupation list (mostly rare occupations) with a 10,000 applicants cap limit per year...


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## dreama (Nov 24, 2010)

Housing and other cost of living prices are no more expensive in Alice Springs than living in northern Canada. When you live remote, you pay the price. My 1-bedroom apartment in Yellowknife was $1300/month. I'm only paying $250/week ($1000/month) for my 1 bedroom flat here in Alice.


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## EE-India (May 16, 2009)

It will be much boring to spend time on this type of discussions unless it is relevant to you someway. One good thing on this forum is most of the people understand the subject before they jump in or simply stays away, that makes every thread is more valuable and useful. We get nearly 25 threads everyday, but not everyone is commenting on everything. So the message here is people knows what they are talking about 

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/au.../57333-how-carry-18000-aud-out-australia.html


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## EE-India (May 16, 2009)

dreama said:


> 1 bedroom flat here in Alice.


1 Bed room flat!! Good Way to handle NT Mate 

What about Halifax and St.John`s, have you lived there as well?


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## dreama (Nov 24, 2010)

EE-India said:


> 1 Bed room flat!! Good Way to handle NT Mate
> 
> What about Halifax and St.John`s, have you lived there as well?


I have lived in Dartmouth, which is across the harbour from Halifax. I had a small funky apartment in an old house for $850 plus utilities, just a few blocks from the harbour ferry to Halifax where I worked. Then it burnt to the ground last New Year's Day, but that's another story. My daughter lived in Halifax for a few years and my mother and tons of other family live there now. Housing prices are rising as Halifax continues to grow and expand. I haven't lived in St. John's, but other more remote places in Newfoundland and Labrador. Lived up north and on the other coast as well as in Ontario, and New Brunswick. Such a nomad.

Got lucky with the 1 bedroom flat here in Alice. It has two nice courtyards, covered car park, air con, new tiled floors, and a gas stove. I can walk to work, which is downtown, and nice quiet neighborhood. Good flats are scarce here right now, with so many people coming and going.


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## hari999999 (Mar 17, 2009)

Cameron admits UK 'still has problem with racism' - Yahoo!

But some people are not admitting this factor. Even the head of country says.


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## hari999999 (Mar 17, 2009)

SunnyBreeze said:


> I'm an Asian-Canadian, currently living in Australia. Much like many others, I moved here primarily for the warmer climate, but my plan has always been to go back to Canada eventually (where all my family and friends are).
> 
> Climate - yes Australia is much better, but I'm from Vancouver where the weather is generally mild compared to the rest of Canada. It does rain a lot, but we get 4 seasons. Summer is beautiful but short, fall means gorgeous coloured leaves, winter you can go snowboarding and skiing, and spring we've got beautiful cherry blossoms. I've always been a summer type of person so I prefer the weather in Sydney. Having said that, winters here ARE cold and most older houses don't have central heating here, so being inside is actually VERY cold in the winters. In Canada, every house is built with central heating. The image that everyone has of Sydney being hot all year round is false advertising.
> 
> ...


Sunny BreeZe........
IT found to be a very good posting
Thankyou.


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## sollie (Jan 4, 2011)

hari999999 said:


> Cameron admits UK 'still has problem with racism' - Yahoo!
> 
> But some people are not admitting this factor. Even the head of country says.



May or may not be true, but don't you think every country will always be (and has a right to be) fond of its own culture? It's only human nature. As long as people are not getting hurt that is.

In India, it seems that people are just as, if not more racist against others of different caste systems. Here at my work, some guy took offense that he was mistaken for a Punjabi as he is "Aryan". Apparently, Aryans are at the top, I don't know. I did not know what the difference was, but based on his reaction, I know racism exists there as it touched a nerve.

The question is, why then do you expect for the UK to be perfect when it comes to racism, but yet in your country it is not the same? Please realise this is not to offend you but more to reason.

My mate's experience was while he was waiting in a hospital waiting area as his dad was dying, his kid started to play with the kid of an Indian family that was also in the waiting area. My mate is not Indian but British born and raised. Immediately, the Indian father pulled back his kid and told the young lad, "Don't play with him as he is not of your class". 

How then do you explain this reverse racism? Does it go outside of the caste system and onto other races as well?


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## onlyassignments (Aug 22, 2011)

I think racism has a lot to do with wealth. It is the perception that indian subcontinent, africans and chinese are poor. How many times do we hear people were racially abused because they were thought to be japanese? how many times people yell, go back to your advanced Japan?it doesnt happen.


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## pcrial (Sep 27, 2010)

*Bigotry and hatred*



onlyassignments said:


> I think racism has a lot to do with wealth. It is the perception that indian subcontinent, africans and chinese are poor. How many times do we hear people were racially abused because they were thought to be japanese? how many times people yell, go back to your advanced Japan?it doesnt happen.


Don't you think bigotry and racially motivated hatred are just the products of small minds? Throughout human history, segments of every population have been treated with hatred. Today, we see the Kurds (a Caucasian tribe of Muslims) being persecuted.

A few years ago in the USA, I witnessed my engineering manager fired, to be replaced with a young inexperienced black person. We were told, the company needed to promote a black to meet the racial percentage quotas.

It is true my fired manager wasn't hurt, because he ended up with a much better job for a technology company, but the situation was incredibly unfair. 

Personally, I would be thrilled to never witness such racially motivated bigotry again. I'm not expecting to see it, because it is deeply entrenched. Throughout the world, there exists an "us or them" mentality. When someone who is not "the mainstream" of the society gains wealth, power in politics, or any gain whatsoever, some in the mainstream of that society will say, "if we don't do something, this group will take over our society." When I lived in Texas, it was about latin immigrants from the southern latin neighbor countries. After the Vietnam war, it was the Vietnamese boat people. If you know your history, most of these peoples are fully integrated into their host society. 

I suppose if we wish, we can find fault with people, because of their religion, their race, their dress (native costume), their exposure level to the sun (USA Southern "red necks"), or any other differentiation we choose. We can spread rumors, slander, even frontally attack with malicious verbage, or personally inflicted violence, yet it means nothing.

Those who tried to end immigration of a group (whoever was "them" at the moment) failed. Those who spew poisonous words, have never achieved their goals either. Even those who promoted mob violence against "them" (whatever group they decided was the enemy) failed.

In the dark ages of human history, someone decided that "left handed people" were demonized, and began executing them. Our modern word "sinister" comes from this era in history. Sinister means "left handed", but the definition no longer means left handed, rather it indicates evil from any source.

Sinister - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Of course bigotry and hatred exists, but many have tried to end it, only becoming frustrated and angry, at their lack of success. Such thinking from small minds can only be resolved by replacing it with sound reasoning.

In the history of America, the earliest immigrants (beginning in the early 1600's) were leaving their previous homes in Europe, in search of religious freedom. The Massachusetts Bay Company, created communities for each of these groups (Puritan, Quaker, and so on...). Unfortunately, within a town of Puritans, anyone not a Puritan might be executed for witchcraft, or even exiled, and forced into the wilderness and forced to try and survive without the infrastructure of the town.

Yet even with the lessons of this history, in America bigotry and hatred still thrives. Those who were persecuted, became integrated with the main stream, and quickly became the persecutors. Most of the persecuted learned little, and their heirs after becoming integrated, joined (and enjoyed) the power that comes from being in the majority.

We can conquer bigotry and hatred, by replacing the small minded thinking with intelligence. When someone does or says something, that is racially, religiously, or politically motivated, we cannot be sucked in and become participants. As the numbers who behave intelligently increase, those practicing bigotry and hatred will diminish. If not, then those acting intelligently, can live with the peace of mind that comes from living according to a higher standard, one involving using the higher intelligence.

Cheers,


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## pcrial (Sep 27, 2010)

*Left Handed*

I'm a left handed individual. As a small child in the first grade, I tried to sharpen my pencil. I went to the pencil sharpener, put my pencil just like I had seen everyone else do it, and started turning the crank.

When I looked at the end of my pencil, it looked as if a beaver had chewed the end off. It wasn't sharp, so I put the pencil back in and turned the crank some more. When that didn't work, I turned the crank faster and harder, and the handle unscrewed and the shavings container fell in the floor making a very large mess.

I was very embarrassed, and had no idea what had gone wrong, but the first grade teacher was certain I did this to disrupt her class. So I had to be punished. She decided I had to sit on the front row, so she could watch me. I was very pleased with this punishment, because I was trying to figure out why the pencil sharpener worked for others, but ruined my pencil.

One day, I was watching a kid sharpen a handful of pencils, and it occurred to me the kid was turning the handle backwards. I (under the teacher's scrutiny) went up, put my pencil in, turned the handle backwards, and voila, problem solved, my pencil was beautifully sharpened.

Repeat similar experiences with all the tools and equipment that is designed for right handed people only, and you will start to understand what it was like. I was a child in the 1960's and being left handed, was a reason for ridicule.

I remember the kids playing baseball during recess. They tried to teach me, right handed, and I was so bad, the teacher told them they had to let me play anyway. So the teams would choose up sides, then the team captains would flip a coin and the looser had to use me on their team.

I remember trying to catch a fly ball, with a right handed glove (no left handed ones were available), and getting hit between the eyes with the baseball. That was the end of my attempts to play baseball. Similar experiences with other sports, led me to believe I must be handicapped. Some years later, I discovered left handed equipment existed, but it was of inferior quality, and very expensive, so I continued to stay away from sports.

Cheers,


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## smartypants (Sep 22, 2011)

sollie said:


> In India, it seems that people are just as, if not more racist against others of different caste systems. Here at my work, some guy took offense that he was mistaken for a Punjabi as he is "Aryan". Apparently, Aryans are at the top, I don't know. I did not know what the difference was, but based on his reaction, I know racism exists there as it touched a nerve.


Not taking issue with what you're saying, but just that this particular example could not have happened with an Indian. Are you sure he is from India? There is no concept of Punjabis vs Aryans in India. Punjabi is a linguistic label. Aryans are an ethnicity. Punjabis are Indo-Aryans by ethnicity as are most Indians in North India. Caste is a completely different system and Aryan or Punjabi are not castes.


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## smartypants (Sep 22, 2011)

sollie said:


> My mate's experience was while he was waiting in a hospital waiting area as his dad was dying, his kid started to play with the kid of an Indian family that was also in the waiting area. My mate is not Indian but British born and raised. Immediately, the Indian father pulled back his kid and told the young lad, "Don't play with him as he is not of your class".


This (whites were to be treated differently) is something that was drummed into people when the British were in India. You can't expect it to disappear that quickly. I'd wait for a couple of generations of independent India at the very least.


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## hari999999 (Mar 17, 2009)

Sollie....

You have to read this whole thread Australia or Cananda and reply.
You have written what was heard from somewere as Aryans and punjabis are not caste.

India is different to what was in 1940 to 1980's
You have to see who is ruling the biggest state of Utter pradesh.
Things are very different from the past.


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## hevin (Jan 15, 2012)

Hello,
I emigrated to Canada 5 years ago. It was not easy to find a job. However, there are a lot of services to support emigrant women. Also, what I like in here, is that your rights are yours and one is not afraid to be over ran. Yes,the weather is cold but one can get used to it. Wel,l I live in British Columbia where it is not as cold as in the other provinces. 
As new comers, people have to know that in order to find a job they are expected to go back to school and get a certificate at least, because here nothing from our previous experience is accepted.
When I came I had an MA in School Education and had to take another MA in Special Education so that I can work in the field that I like. 
I choosed Canada because it was closer to home  
It is not an easy choice to make. 
Good luck


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## hari999999 (Mar 17, 2009)

Racism in Australia told by World renowned brain surgeon Dr Charles Teo who lives in Australia.
See what he says

When i mentioned about Racism some forum members are getting violent.

Racism still alive, says Teo - Yahoo!7


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## onlyassignments (Aug 22, 2011)

last time i wrote message much milder than this i got message from moderator for personal attack. sir, has he ever asked you to go to india? that is so uncalled for.


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## kaz101 (Nov 29, 2007)

The post has been deleted since it does seem like an over reaction. 

Everyone: please note that in text people don't get across the tone and something that may not meant to be harsh can still come across that way.


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## kaz101 (Nov 29, 2007)

hari999999 said:


> Racism in Australia told by World renowned brain surgeon Dr Charles Teo who lives in Australia.
> See what he says
> 
> When i mentioned about Racism some forum members are getting violent.
> ...


I think it's been discussed so many times - search the forums - that people get fed up with it coming up again. 
There is racism in EVERY country to some extent. There are people living here from various races that have not faced the racism that has been described in the newspapers (and other media). 
There was a long discussion about racism when an Asian student was killed but when it was discovered he was killed by other Asians there was nothing said.... 

In the above piece there is also a quote:
"Nonetheless, Dr Teo described Australia as "the best nation in the world" and said he loved its egalitarian mentality."

However you didn't mention that part of the piece just the part that mentioned the racism...... I'm not taking away from what happened to the doctors daughter but it was said by drunks. 

There needs to be balance about what is reality and what is reported. 

Regards,
Karen


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## hari999999 (Mar 17, 2009)

onlyassignments said:


> last time i wrote message much milder than this i got message from moderator for personal attack. sir, has he ever asked you to go to india? that is so uncalled for.


Thanks for reporting such a post that dont have a sign of manners.


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## hari999999 (Mar 17, 2009)

I dont know why that guy is getting angry to me as Racism is Australia is not told by me its told by World known Brain Surgeon Charlie Teo. 
Just copied the link to support my remarks in this thread.

He is asking me to go away to India or Canada when i say some thing about Racism that i felt *( that post is deleted by Kaz our moderator)*

When People in the world speak and fight against racism they have not fled the country
Did Nelson Mandela why fought against racism in SOuth Africa ran away to Canada or India
Did Martin Luther King ran away from USA and landed in Cananda or India when he was against racism

I am not interested to make a controversy in this forum if so i can post this link in a new thread.
I want just supportive evidence to what i have told about racism in Australia in this thread
Also want to stand with the forum rules as much as possible


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## kaz101 (Nov 29, 2007)

hari999999,
This thread was first started by someone who wanted to know whether to make a move to Canada or Australia. Racism is just one factor in that and if you want to discuss only racism in Australia then I think you should start a new thread. First though search for previous posts on the topic since it has been discussed many times before and those threads may answer your concerns. 

Regards,
Karen


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## naoto (Jan 8, 2012)

I agree. Labeling Australia racist just because someone had a bad experience is stupid. It is the same as to say that all Africans are uneducated or All Latin people love Jalapeños. Absurd!!
Australia is extremity tolerant society. One look at Sydney which is more multicultural than any city I lived enough is sufficient to prove you wrong. And I've been in many places. 

Get your facts right.


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## kaz101 (Nov 29, 2007)

naoto said:


> I agree. Labeling Australia racist just because someone had a bad experience is stupid. It is the same as to say that all Africans are uneducated or All Latin people love Jalapeños. Absurd!!
> Australia is extremity tolerant society. One look at Sydney which is more multicultural than any city I lived enough is sufficient to prove you wrong. And I've been in many places.
> 
> Get your facts right.


hari999999 is trying to find out the facts that's why the question was asked


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## nitisha (Mar 24, 2012)

I am also hoping australia will be great for me...


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## SunnyBreeze (Jul 11, 2009)

EE-India said:


> Hi
> 
> Somehow I assumed that your vast living experience in Canada can help me on this
> 
> ...


Sorry about the really late reply, I'm not on this forum very often I guess! 

Well, for Asian festivals, restaurants, etc. your best bets are with big urban centres like Vancouver and Toronto, both of which have large Asian communities and some surrounding suburbs favoured by certain cultures/ethnic groups. For example, Richmond (a suburb near Vancouver) is full of Chinese people, while Surrey has more Indians, and Koreans prefer Coquitlam and Burnaby. 

Climate -- Vancouver or Victoria is the best. The mildest Canadian winters. Victoria is a bit sleepy and quiet. But, the cost of living in Vancouver is probably the most expensive in Canada. Pay-wise, it's not very good in Vancouver either. I've heard that for doing the same/similar job in Toronto, you get paid significantly more. This is made worse by the fact that housing prices in Vancouver are ridiculously high. 

If you want high paying and oil and gas related, Alberta is the place to be. Alberta also only has one tax so shopping is excellent and Calgary is a large enough city with lots of Asians as well. But it's cooooold! Like -20 degrees in the winter cold. Snow in September cold. That's outside temperatures...inside the house you'd be fine with the central heating and a couple of layers. While I've only ever lived in Vancouver in Canada, I think you do get used to that kind of cold weather eventually. You can also pick up snowboarding, skating, and other winter sports. Calgary is also meant to be one of the sunniest places -- despite the cold and snow, the sun is often shining there!


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