# FBAR - What accounts to include?



## canook4

Hello everyone 

I am in the process of using the streamlined us tax procedure & questions arise:

I have an RRSP that is over 10K so I will be reporting it on the FBAR but do I also have to include my other accounts (regular Canadian chequing account & regular Canadian joint chequing account) which did not reach the 10K limit? I am very nervous giving the IRS my bank account numbers. Maybe I do not want an answer to this & just remain in the dark and just send my RRSP account number... hmmmm what to do?


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## canook4

Thanks, I just hate to drag my spouse into this as far as the joint accounts go. He is not a US citizen but those are his account numbers too. 

How do I determine who is the principal joint owner? All the instructions say is "Items 25-33. Use the identifying information of the principal joint owner (excluding the filer)" so it sounds like I need to put his name here?????

Also on line 24 Number of Joint Owners of This Account it states "Do not count the filer when determining the number of joint owners.".... so I guess the answer is 1????

Lots of fun!


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## canook4

If I knew then what I know now I would of set up our accounts differently for sure. 

Unfortunately I am one of those dual citizens that thought she only had to file US taxes if she actually worked in the US. But, come to find out the US is the only country in the entire world that taxes it's citizens not on residency but citizenship. 

Live and learn


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## Bevdeforges

BBCWatcher said:


> Yes. The FBAR $10K threshold is an aggregate one. For example, if you have one $9800 account and 36 $10 accounts you have to report all 37 accounts.
> 
> You don't actually have a legal choice, and I wouldn't worry about things you can't control. At least it isn't healthy to do so. However, if it would make you feel better you can file your FBAR with U.S. Treasury Department electronically.


I'd be a little wary of filing the FBAR electronically. Last year was the first year you could do that, and there was quite a bit of publicity on the IRS site about this. The e-filing site for FBARS is not exactly what I'd call "user friendly" starting with the name of the site, which has something to do with "fraud." 

Anyhow, this year, I've seen NOTHING about filing the FBARs electronically. Maybe it's just too early (they're not due until June 30th), but I have a feeling the electronic filing doesn't work quite as smoothly as they had hoped. I just printed my forms off and am going to mail them in.

Oh, and actually, if you do have 25 or more accounts, there is something in the instructions to the form that says to just tell them the number of accounts you have and don't fill out the rest of the form. (I suppose that means, they'll be in touch... but I'm always tempted to just tell them I have 30 forms and be done with it.)
Cheers,
Bev


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## Vangrrl

canook4 said:


> If I knew then what I know now I would of set up our accounts differently for sure.
> 
> Unfortunately I am one of those dual citizens that thought she only had to file US taxes if she actually worked in the US. But, come to find out the US is the only country in the entire world that taxes it's citizens not on residency but citizenship.
> 
> Live and learn


I don't include my husband's name on my FBAR's. I list our joint accounts and put "Non US citizen spouse" where it asks for his name.

I've made a few changes to our accounts in the 2 years that I started filing US taxes. We've cleaned up a few random small balance accounts. I took my name off of an account that I held jointly with my mother-in-law (its her account but I manage her finances). Our kids RESP is now solely in husband's name and I don't report it on my FBAR. I closed my TFSA and don't report it.

And we now have an account that is solely in his name that we will use for any temporary high value transfers (like for moving money out of the line of credit to pay a contractor/buy a car etc...). 

I understand that FBARs are just for "reporting" accounts but I have no interest in reporting more than I need to.


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## canook4

I will definitely be making some changes also. I am also leaning towards renouncing us citizenship... it's just too hard to try to make financial decisions with 2 countries tax laws to think about...such as missing out on the TFSA, I might want to open another little shop down the road, etc. Give the IRS all my bank acct numbers - renounce - keep filing until renounce done - change all bank accounts - live free 

I don't even have all the bank statements for the last 6 years. I only started keeping them when my husband started his business. I know somewhere in 2008 we sold/bought a house and a large sum of money was in one of the accounts for a day. How would I report that?


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## Bevdeforges

Vangrrl, I think you're doing the sensible thing under the circumstances. It's only by happenstance that I don't have any joint accounts with my husband, but I've always just put NRA (non-resident alien) in any space that asks for identifying information about my spouse. It means you can't e-file, but past that, it isn't a major inconvenience.

And canook4, don't hesitate to give them a good faith estimate of your high balance for those years you don't have (or can't find) your bank statements. The requirement is only that you report the highest balance that appeared on the regularly issued (month-end or quarter-end) statements, so if a big chunk of money came in and then went out of your account in just a few days' time, I wouldn't worry about it. If it makes you feel better, round your estimate up by several thousand dollars or just use the one-time balance as your high balance. On the FBARs they are more concerned with your disclosing the existence of your foreign accounts than with the precise number you give them as your high balance.
Cheers,
Bev


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## jdgaynor

Hi Bev,

Regarding the "high balance," I was confronted by the same situation: my wife & I paid our French taxes from one of my accounts, thus we both transferred in high sums of money, but which was then immediately debited by the French fisc. Reporting this "high peak" amount would have been misleading as to the actual / real amounts in that account.

I recommend the following: See Dept. of the Treasury document "f90221.pdf," page 8, Item 15 "Determining Maximum Account Value" : "...The maximum value of an account is a reasonable approximation of the greatest value of currency or nonmonetary assets in the account during the calendar year. Periodic account statements may be relied on to determine the maximum value of the account, provided that the statements fairly reflect the maximum account value during the calendar year..."

Given the above explanation, I suggest taking the 12 end-of-month "monthly balances" from your bank statements, and averaging these amounts over the year, thus "fairly reflect(ing) the maximum account value during the calendar year" and not incorrectly showing a one-time "spike" due to a French tax payment.

Best regards,
John


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## maz57

@ bbc 

re: Post #11. I agree, it's not that complicated. Ridiculous, invasive, demeaning and stupid, but not complicated. Depending on how your institution supplies account statements, it could be difficult to gather the required info to properly report, but in the end the actual amounts probably don't matter that much because they can and often do change greatly from one day to the next and may never even show up on a statement. It's an information form, not a tax form. It's the existence of the accounts that matters.

re: Post #2 Ironically, in the example you offered, it would not be necessary to report ANY of the accounts; just tick the "Yes" box and enter "37" for the total number of accounts in box 14 and skip the rest of the form. Go figure.


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## maz57

Guess I'll just open a few more accounts with 1 dollar in them so I can skip all the annoying details. I've already been dutifully reporting a number of accounts with $0 balance for years. Now there's a high water mark!`


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