# "substantial and steady economic resources"...????



## Steve&Bev

I was reading on the Italian Consulate Miami website the requirements for an extended visa and came across the requirement of "substantial and steady economic resources." I emailed the consulate in Miami asking if there is an exact dollar/euro amount that qualifies for the minimum of "substantial and steady economic resources." The response I received was, "The minimum amount of monthly revenue is $ 3800 per person."

Is this amount realistic compared to what others have experienced? Has anyone been granted a visa with less income. If so, how much less??


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## Arturo.c

I have no idea where they could have gotten that amount, which is way too high in my opinion. 

Non-EU citizens in Italy are routinely granted a permit of stay if they can show monthly earnings above the "assegno sociale", which is the lowest monthly welfare payment, and for the current year amounts to 417,30 Euros (5,424 Euros of yearly income).

Therefore if you can show proof that you earn more than $800 a month from assets or trust fund, you should be OK.


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## Steve&Bev

Autro~

Thanks so much for the info! That makes more sense than what I got back from the consulate. So I can forgo trying to win the lottery. I found this information on the Italian embassy website:

Table for establishing the means of subsistence required for admission to Italy.
For business, medical treatment (and in this case an accompanying person), sports competition, or for religious reasons, transit, transport or tourism:
Length of sojourn	One member	Two or more members
1-5 days: overall fixed amount	€ 269,60	€ 212,81
6-10 days: per persons/day	€ 44,93	€ 26,33
11-20 days: overall fixed amount	€ 51,64	€ 25,82
Daily amount per person	€ 36,67	€ 22,21
Above 20 days: fixed amount:	€ 206,58	€ 118,79
Daily amount per person	€ 27,89	€ 17,04

Ok it didn't copy & paste well but it's a table showing euro amounts needed depending on the length of your stay.


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## Joppa

The trouble with Italian visa requirements is that each consulate seems to have its own rule - some call it arbitary - and if you don't meet the particular requirement, your visa is likely to be denied, even though another person applying to a different consulate may get theirs with the same financial resources.


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## Steve&Bev

Joppa said:


> The trouble with Italian visa requirements is that each consulate seems to have its own rule - some call it arbitary - and if you don't meet the particular requirement, your visa is likely to be denied, even though another person applying to a different consulate may get theirs with the same financial resources.


I'm finding that exact same information as well. It's kind of disconcerting to think we could set up everything in anticipation of making the big move only to find out we're going to get denied at the last minute...


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## bellaamalfi

Steve&Bev,
Were you able to move to Italy? My family is going through the same situation right now and trying to figure out how much we would need to have in the bank before jumping through hoops to move. I hope you were able to make the move!


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## accbgb

FWIW, much of what is written above relates to the way Italy must treat citizens of other EU/Schengen countries. This is a matter of EU/Schengen member state agreements and Italy has little choice but to go along. See EUROPA - Living abroad

OTOH, Italy can, and does, treat citizens of other countries - such as the US - as she pleases.


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## Arturo.c

I did some research on the matter, and I see that my previous reply has become somewhat outdated.

At this point I believe it would be helpful to provide some laws and regulation reference in order to clarify the rules about issuing visas for "elective residence" in Italy.

The Interministerial Decree of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Italy no. 850 of 11 May 2011 defines the various types of entry visas that can be issued to citizens of countries outside the so called "Schengen area".

Article 13 of attachment A of said Decree reads as follows:

_"The visa for elective residence allows foreigners who intend to settle in our country and are able to support themselves, without exerting any work, to enter Italy for the purpose of prolonged stay .

For this purpose, the applicant must provide adequate and documented proof of availability of accommodation to be elected as his residence, and of independent and substantial economic resources, stable and steady, of which the continuity in the future can be reasonably assumed. These resources, which should be not less than *three times the yearly amount* provided in Table A annexed to the Directive of the Ministry of the Interior of 1 March 2000 concerning the definition of means of support for entry and residence of aliens in the national territory for tourism, will have to come from the ownership of considerable incomes (pensions, annuities, trust funds, etc.), possession of real estate, ownership of stable business activity or from other sources with the exception of salaried work.

To the applicant's spouse, minor children and adult children living together and dependent, a similar visa may be issued, provided that the above financial capacity is deemed suitable also for them as well."_

Now, if you take a look at the aforesaid Table A annexed to the Directive of the Ministry of the Interior of 1 March 2000, you will find that the yearly amount is obtained by adding the fixed amount for stays longer than 20 days (€ 206,58) and the daily amount per person (€ 27,89) multiplied by 365. Hence € 206,58 + (€ 27.89 X 365) = € 10.386,43.

Multiply by 3 and the result is € 31.159,29, meaning a monthly income of € 2.596,60. At the current exchange rate (1 Euro = 1.1505 US dollars) that would mean 2.987,38 $. Higher than I previously assumed, but still less than 3.800 $ per person (probably due to the devaluation of the Euro).

Browsing the websites of some Italian Embassies and Consulates around the world, I see that quite some of them defined the required yearly income around € 31.000, meaning that the above figures are not exactly set in stone but Consular officers in charge of issuing visas (and their supervisors) are allowed some leeway in judging whether an applicant's means of subsistence are enough to ensure his survival in Italy without becoming a burden for the notoriously generous Italian welfare system (I'm kidding, of course...).


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## bellaamalfi

Arturo,
I am speechless...ok, I would be but I still have questions. I'm so impressed with your research! Could you advise if we were to only apply for residency for one year with an ER with $400k in the bank if you think that would suffice? I have received several opinions through this forum which is wonderful and I would love to hear your thoughts as well. I understand the premise of not wanting to be a burden on the state but not having a passive income seems to be the wall we cannot break through...I keep hearing that when you apply for ER they are assuming you intend to live permanently and not as a tourist (or tourist visa?). What if you want to experience the country and pay your way to do it with a set date of return on your visa. We are a family of four (2 kids under 2). This is so overwhelming. I truly appreciate your input and advice.


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## BBCWatcher

Please note that the consulates are correctly interpreting "not less than" to mean not less than. That is, they can (and often do) require more. They are also free to interpret "stable and steady" as they deem fit.

Bella, in my view you just do the math and you come up way short. Assuming even an aggressive 5% annual withdrawal rate from $400K of wealth -- investment advisors typically recommend 4% -- that's US$20K/year. That's not enough even for one adult. In my view you're unlikely to qualify. Unlikely doesn't mean impossible, but I'm just doing basic financial math here. Elsewhere you've mentioned that you have more than $400K, so adjust the math accordingly.

You probably have enough wealth to get into a couple other European countries and their residence programs. Latvia is one example, and Malta might be within reach, too. Italy, no, not in my view, not with these figures.


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## accbgb

bellaamalfi said:


> Arturo,
> ...Could you advise if we were to only apply for residency for one year with an ER with $400k in the bank if you think that would suffice?...


So, once again, let's deal with a couple of issues:

1) Forget about applying for residency. You first need to obtain an Elective Residency visa from the consulate which serves the area where you legally reside. *If* an ER visa is granted, *then *you apply for residency in your chosen comune after arriving in Italy. I have not heard of a case where residency was refused after an ER visa was granted; I suppose it could happen, but I have not heard of it.

2) As has been mentioned already, there is no such thing as a "one year elective residency visa." If you tell the consulate that you only want to stay in Italy for one year, your visa *will be* refused.


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## panama rick

hi Steve/Bev, my wife and I went through the ER process with the Miami Consulate (in person). We were told $8000/mo for the two of us. They were not at all interested in any mitigating factors. ie; my wife is of Italian decent, I was stationed there for 3 years with NATO. We had a signed rental contract, purchased airfare, FBI check and written narrative on why we wanted to move there. We never got past the $8000. Some folks are saying it doesn't seem fair and I agree, but until someone can show me where it's actually written (chapter & verse) that's the reality. If there's any out there that can prove me wrong I would welcome it.


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## Arturo.c

accbgb said:


> As has been mentioned already, there is no such thing as a "one year elective residency visa." If you tell the consulate that you only want to stay in Italy for one year, your visa *will be* refused.


That pretty sums up the point: although all wedding couples take vows "till death do us part", nowadays for one in three marriages those vows go unfulfilled. That notwithstanding, nobody dares to walk up the aisle and say anything else instead. 
Similarly, if you don't show an Italian Consular officer enough commitment to spend a substantial part of the rest of your life in Italy, it is unlikely that your ER visa will be granted.


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## BBCWatcher

panama rick said:


> We were told $8000/mo for the two of us.


That makes perfect sense. The published minimum, as described upthread, is (very precisely) 31,159.29 euro per year. The consulate is free to require more but cannot require less. As part of "stable and steady" the consulate would reasonably assume there is some exchange rate risk in a U.S. dollar denominated income flow. (Less risk perhaps than in a Russian ruble denominated income flow, for example, but some exchange rate risk.) Add that all up and an $8,000/month passive income requirement for two adults for an ER visa is not at all surprising.

Doing some more math, an $8,000/month minimum income flow equals a 24% annual drawdown rate if you have $400,000 of wealth. And that's for two adults, no children. Is a 24% annual drawdown rate even remotely consistent with economic reality? I'm afraid not. That math just does not work, and it's hard for me to imagine a consulate ever thinking it would work. (_Maybe_ for a couple in their 90s when they've reached the tail end of the actuarial life expectancy tables.)


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## accbgb

BBCWatcher said:


> That makes perfect sense. The published minimum, as described upthread, is (very precisely) 31,159.29 euro per year. The consulate is free to require more but cannot require less. As part of "stable and steady" the consulate would reasonably assume there is some exchange rate risk in a U.S. dollar denominated income flow. (Less risk perhaps than in a Russian ruble denominated income flow, for example, but some exchange rate risk.) Add that all up and an $8,000/month passive income requirement for two adults for an ER visa is not at all surprising.
> 
> Doing some more math, an $8,000/month minimum income flow equals a 24% annual drawdown rate if you have $400,000 of wealth. And that's for two adults, no children. Is a 24% annual drawdown rate even remotely consistent with economic reality? I'm afraid not. That math just does not work, and it's hard for me to imagine a consulate ever thinking it would work. (_Maybe_ for a couple in their 90s when they've reached the tail end of the actuarial life expectancy tables.)



While I agree with you completely, the thing that sort of bothers me (well, I have Italian citizenship, so it doesn't directly impact me) is that they are setting that minimum _per person_ and doubling it for a couple. I could see perhaps 140% - 160% of the minimum for a couple, but double?

That does seem a bit unreasonable and unfair. Certainly, if one person can live on ~€31k, then two can live on €40k'ish, wouldn't you agree?


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## Bevdeforges

The minimum income levels set for immigration purposes aren't strictly about how much one or two people can live on in Italy (or anywhere else for that matter). It's a screening process, pure and simple. Setting a high hurdle rate means that there are fewer immigrants to deal with - and a higher potential for collecting much-needed taxes (not just income, but think VAT) from the immigrants they do allow in.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Dolce100000

I just got back from my 2nd trip to Rome. I want to move there very much. The problem is I am 62 and on disability and if I leave the country I will lose a substantial amount of my monthly payments, leaving me with about $700.00 a month. I have seen some very cheap apartments on the outskirts of Rome for between 250 to 350 Euros a month. If I can show thatt I will be renting one of these apartments, with a rental agreement, would that give me a better chance of fulfilling my dream of moving to Rome? Thank you. Sincerely, Dolce100000


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## BBCWatcher

Dolce100000 said:


> The problem is I am 62 and on disability and if I leave the country I will lose a substantial amount of my monthly payments, leaving me with about $700.00 a month.


That's a "hard stop" in terms of qualifying for an Elective Residence visa. That figure is less than one quarter of the minimum income level required for a ER visa for a household of one.

If you're "income poor" but at least relatively wealthy -- $750,000 or more in dependable and reasonably liquid wealth, as an educated guess -- then that wealth can effectively "top up" your limited income. Otherwise I'm afraid you're just out of luck for that type of visa.


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## Jackster

Although the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has set the income requirement at three times the amounts listed on Table A (for establishing income requirements), the Italian Consulates are setting income levels at whatever they want. During the past year, the amounts I have heard from various retirees attempting to obtain an elective residence visa have risen to as much as $4,000 per month PER PERSON, plus substantial savings. I just spoke to a woman who tried to obtain an elective residence visa from the Italian Consulate in NYC who was asked if she had a million dollars in the bank. When she said she did not, the consulate employee said, "Then you don't qualify. Today, only the richest Americans are allowed to obtain the visa." These new income requirements are ridiculous because those of us already living here know quite well that it doesn't take $8,000 a month for a couple to live in Italy. Sadly, that doesn't matter. Although I know several people using various Italian Consulates across the U.S. have come up against this issue, all one can do is try.


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## BBCWatcher

Jackster said:


> These new income requirements are ridiculous because those of us already living here know quite well that it doesn't take $8,000 a month for a couple to live in Italy.


That's not the point. The point is, as a public policy goal, to grant residence to foreigners who are unlikely to commit crimes and who are highly likely to spend lots of money in Italy, generating significant economic activity (and tax revenue). Although well-to-do people tend to spend a smaller percentage of their incomes/wealth on consumption than less well-to-do people, they still spend a lot more in absolute terms. That's what the Italian government wants.

Having US$1 million "in the bank" means, at a 4% annual spending rate from that wealth (a typical, "back of the envelope" figure investment advisors use), there's $40,000 in annual spending. At current exchange rates that's just a bit over 35,000 euro, or just a bit over 2,900 euro per month. (And we're not factoring taxes into this rough calculation, which we probably should.) In short, the consulate isn't grabbing these numbers at random. These are the sort of numbers (and bigger) that a "typical" applicant would need to meet the Italian government's public policy goals.


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## Jackster

No, the point is that the Ministry has set the minimum income level at approximately 31,000 euros per year for one person, approximately 37,000 euros for a couple, etc. but the consulates are now requiring 43,000 euros per year per person PLUS substantial savings. This new policy is now eliminating a large group of people who would also be spending their money, paying taxes, not committing crimes, i.e., the typical retiree well able to support themselves; I suspect there are more middle-income retirees coming to Italy than those who are wealthy. In essence, you are suggesting that the Italian government is not interested in taking advantage of the middle-income foreigners spending their money here, or contributing to the coffers. I suspect that there is a different reason this is happening.


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## BBCWatcher

Jackster said:


> In essence, you are suggesting that the Italian government is not interested in taking advantage of the middle-income foreigners spending their money here, or contributing to the coffers.


I am. The government obviously isn't particularly interested in welcoming middle income foreigners except as tourists. Italian embassies and consulates are part of the Italian government. Their country, their rules, their whims. Italy is an attractive retirement destination, and the government is under no obligation to undercharge for it -- or to do what Spain did and overheat its housing market. (Italy's program, unlike most others of its kind in Europe, requires no real estate purchase.)

If you're interested in a cheaper foreign retirement destination, there are several that are typically available.


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## MAXTORQUE

Steve&Bev said:


> I was reading on the Italian Consulate Miami website the requirements for an extended visa and came across the requirement of "substantial and steady economic resources." I emailed the consulate in Miami asking if there is an exact dollar/euro amount that qualifies for the minimum of "substantial and steady economic resources." The response I received was, "The minimum amount of monthly revenue is $ 3800 per person."
> 
> Is this amount realistic compared to what others have experienced? Has anyone been granted a visa with less income. If so, how much less??



I am Italian and have a brother living for 30 years in US with green card and just applied for double citizienship 
I wonder if I decide to move tu US and stay at my brother address what are the requirements for
substantial and steady economic resources?


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## Bevdeforges

I think you probably want to post this question in the US section of the forums. America Expat Forum for Expats Living in America - Expat Forum For People Moving Overseas And Living Abroad

If you're planning on immigrating to the US, I think you'll find the requirements are quite a bit trickier than those for Americans moving to Italy.
Cheers,
Bev


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## accbgb

BBCWatcher said:


> I am. The government obviously isn't particularly interested in welcoming middle income foreigners except as tourists. Italian embassies and consulates are part of the Italian government. Their country, their rules, their whims. Italy is an attractive retirement destination, and the government is under no obligation to undercharge for it -- or to do what Spain did and overheat its housing market. (Italy's program, unlike most others of its kind in Europe, requires no real estate purchase.)
> 
> If you're interested in a cheaper foreign retirement destination, there are several that are typically available.


I tend to agree with you, however there is just one little problem: the Ministry of Foreign Affairs seems to say one thing, while the consulates - in the US - seem to be doing something quite different. A fact which is even more confusing given that the consulates are overseen by that very same Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

And this raises a question: do *all* consulates worldwide impose the same requirements, or are US citizens being held to a higher standard for some unknown reason? What about Australians, for example? Canadians? Fijians?


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## NickZ

Jackster said:


> In essence, you are suggesting that the Italian government is not interested in taking advantage of the middle-income foreigners spending their money here, or contributing to the coffers. I suspect that there is a different reason this is happening.



The problem is those people represent relatively little gain for a lot of risk.

If they get sick (And most are old enough the risks are high) then the costs to the Italian health system will quickly surpass any taxes paid by these retirees.

The reason Both France and Italy pushed hard for the current rules on EU retirees is they ended up with a large number of "middle class" retirees from Northern Europe.. They paid virtually no taxes but they consumed health resources .


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## Italia-Mx

accbgb said:


> And this raises a question: do *all* consulates worldwide impose the same requirements, or are US citizens being held to a higher standard for some unknown reason? What about Australians, for example? Canadians? Fijians?


My companion and I are Italian citizens. I've been in Italy 15 years; he going on six. I know of a couple of Americans living in my city, a few Australians and a few Canadians. Some of those, like myself, have dual citizenship with Italy and others have been allowed to stay due to marriage to an Italian citizen, including some Caribbean islanders who have married Italians. I, personally, do not know of anyone that is retired here on a foreign visa of any sort. 

But I can tell you this. I see a whole lot of Africans who came here illegally and more arriving every day despite the fact they are supposed to be repatriated because they have no right to international protection. I don't know if this has anything to do with visas being refused to middle income retirees but this is what's going on in Italy. It is literally crawling with people crossing the Mediterranean from Africa.


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## Italia-Mx

As far as Americans possibly being held to a higher standard, many Italians are very unhappy about the African invasion. If the current US administration is responsible for that invasion by actions it took in Libya and the Middle East, perhaps American foreigners are deliberately being refused retirement visas despite the fact that middle income Americans generally have more income than most Italians. 

Regarding the previous comment about Northern Europeans costing Italy and France money in healthcare, they are Europeans. They can live anywhere they choose in the EU regardless of income or how much health resource they require.


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## NickZ

Italia-Mx said:


> Regarding the previous comment about Northern Europeans costing Italy and France money in healthcare, they are Europeans. They can live anywhere they choose in the EU regardless of income or how much health resource they require.


Only if they're working or looking for work.


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## Italia-Mx

NickZ said:


> Only if they're working or looking for work.


I'm a retired Italian citizen with the right to retire in any EU member state of my choosing.


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## BBCWatcher

accbgb said:


> I tend to agree with you, however there is just one little problem: the Ministry of Foreign Affairs seems to say one thing, while the consulates - in the US - seem to be doing something quite different.


No, they aren't. There's a published minimum and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs gives their consulates/embassies discretion to require more than the minimum. There's no conflict, no discrepancy. It's a "minimum to be considered" standard, advertised as such.

And it's also a smart visa policy. If the published minimum were fixed and universal, with no local discretion allowed, then you'd have lots of applicants playing financial engineering games to try to clear that minimum bar, barely. For example, some applicants would obtain undisclosed loans, knowing with certainty they'd clear the financial bar on paper but not in reality. Such financial games wouldn't be in the Italian government's interest. A "minimum to be considered" standard helps reduce such problems.

Singapore, for example, takes a similar approach. The Singaporean government says very little about what the qualifications are for residence, and it does not explain its decisions. So it's at least much harder to "tick the boxes" artificially and game the system.

There's also the fact that different income and wealth demonstrations are different. An applicant presenting concrete evidence of a U.S. Social Security retirement benefit as part of his/her passive income is a very different applicant than someone presenting sketchy evidence of a retirement benefit from Cameroon's government. The U.S. government is more likely to pay its benefits than Cameroon's government, quite simply. The _quality_ and reliability of the income/wealth are important considerations, with the embassies/consulates given discretion to evaluate such differences.


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## BBCWatcher

Italia-Mx said:


> I see a whole lot of Africans who came here illegally and more arriving every day despite the fact they are supposed to be repatriated because they have no right to international protection.


It's not only migrants from Africa. Every migrant has due process rights. Even in the best funded, least stressed immigration system with a mere trickle of inbound migrants it takes time to adjudicate asylum claims fairly and carefully, rightly so. In addition, if an asylum claim is denied, it's generally not possible to deport someone who doesn't have a passport and who cannot obtain one.

So let's suppose the government is dealing with an individual who arrived in Italy without a passport (or who tossed it into the sea, and/or who had a fake passport), who applied for asylum, the asylum claim was properly investigated and denied, the individual still has no passport (or passport equivalent), and his/her purported country of citizenship refuses to cooperate to issue him/her a passport. There is no evidence the individual is a threat to him/herself or to society. Should the government imprison such individuals, at great taxpayer expense? I'd vote no, and indeed the government typically does not. Such individuals have no legal right to stay, but they also aren't functionally deportable. So they stay -- or sometimes they head elsewhere, for example to the Calais Jungle and then into the United Kingdom if possible. It's not an enviable situation except, sometimes, from the perspective of the countries of origin.

Europe currently finds itself in the midst of the greatest wave of refugees since World War II. Of course the immigration system is stressed, a lot. The only real solution (or set of solutions) is to reduce the need for migration -- to help more countries become better places to live, and (as a start) not to add more fuel to civil war fires in the Middle East and elsewhere. By the way, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute Italy is the world's 9th largest arms exporter.

All of which has practically nothing to do with how a country ought to design and administer its legal immigration policies.


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## Bevdeforges

Just as an aside to all of this. It's a long standing "custom" in many consulates to cite inadequate financial resources as the reason for denying a visa application when the real reason may be something less tangible. The consulates have discretionary authority for a reason. If an applicant's story doesn't quite add up or has vague discrepancies, it's easier to cite financial resources than to say there are odd gaps in the application.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Italia-Mx

In Italy, it's mostly Africans from sub-Sahara but authorities are waking up and realizing that being fished out of the sea is not a reason to enter Europe. First week of May, in fact, the carabinieri and finance police in my beautiful city finally dismantled with bulldozers at 3:00 AM, an illegal market selling fakes and other illegal items run by Senegalese squatters for 20 years right in the middle of town. To say it was an eyesore similar to a dump in South Sudan is putting it mildly. 60 illegals found sleeping on the site in dilapidated cars were also routed out. Again, being fished out of the Sea is not a reason to enter Europe. Each year this market operated, the more illegals it attracted. Now the city has taken back it's land and the residents are overjoyed that the dump is gone.


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## NickZ

Italia-Mx said:


> I'm a retired Italian citizen with the right to retire in any EU member state of my choosing.


Try registering for residence if you don't have sufficient resources, If you don't register with in three months Spain will fine you. If you aren't receiving an EU pension you'll need health care. Those with an EU pension will have a health card sending the costs to their home country.


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## rsetzer99

I would really really love to see some actual income quotations from other than the Miami Consulate. Their difficulty has long been documented. It is rather urgent for me as we are in the process of buying a house, and I would like to know, before I put down my contract deposit, whether I should not even bother. 

I'm an accountant and my spreadsheets show that I could demonstrate a 7000/mo combined income for a couple for a 12 year period. None of the income is passive. All being a combination of US SS, Govt pension and 401K. 

But, I digress. solid data is needed from those who have, or have direct report from others who have recently completed, or attempted the process.


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## accbgb

rsetzer99 said:


> I would really really love to see some actual income quotations from other than the Miami Consulate. Their difficulty has long been documented. It is rather urgent for me as we are in the process of buying a house, and I would like to know, before I put down my contract deposit, whether I should not even bother.
> 
> I'm an accountant and my spreadsheets show that I could demonstrate a 7000/mo combined income for a couple for a 12 year period. None of the income is passive. All being a combination of US SS, Govt pension and 401K.
> 
> But, I digress. solid data is needed from those who have, or have direct report from others who have recently completed, or attempted the process.


Check your private messages.


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## BBCWatcher

rsetzer99 said:


> None of the income is passive. All being a combination of US SS, Govt pension and 401K.


All of that income is passive, isn't it? That's a good thing for an ER visa.


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## rsetzer99

Passive income is traditionally defined as income from activity one is not directly involved in and is also not a guaranteed income stream. Pensions and SS are not considered passive by the irs. It gets complicated but for the purposes of these discussions, consulates are likely wary of any income stream that cannot be stated in a guarenteed stream.


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## editordennis

I apologize for intruding, but this is a topic of no little concern for me as my partner and I are planning to retire to Italy in September. I will be on Social Security with two pensions from the government, adding up to a monthly income of approximately $2,700, all of it "passive". My partner won't be able to contribute much, but I expect it will be around $1,000 to $1,500. Now, I have read posts by another member of this forum stating that Italy expects people to have a MINIMUM of $6000 PER MONTH in income. I know from my friends who live in Italy (both native and retired) that THEY don't make this kind of money per month and probably never will. So what gives? What is the truth? Because if I am expected to prove I make $6,000 per month, I can't, so I might as well resign myself to retiring to a swamp in Alabama.


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## NickZ

rsetzer99 said:


> Passive income is traditionally defined as income from activity one is not directly involved in and is also not a guaranteed income stream. Pensions and SS are not considered passive by the irs. It gets complicated but for the purposes of these discussions, consulates are likely wary of any income stream that cannot be stated in a guarenteed stream.


It won't matter to the consulate what the IRS classes things.

They are looking for non employment income. There likely is some sort of discount applied to the various types based on safety. A government pension is pretty close to 100% safe so no discount. OTOH if you show a lump sump of money the consulate will assume that money could be spent tomorrow so far less safe.


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## BBCWatcher

NickZ said:


> A government pension is pretty close to 100% safe so no discount.


Government pensions can still be discounted and frequently are. They're discounted in at least two ways:

(a) Currency risks. Consulates, one can reasonably expect, apply some sort of currency discount with more discount applied to "obscure" and potentially volatile currencies, less applied to major currencies, and none to euro-denominated pensions.

(b) Payor risks. There's a big difference between a U.S. government pension and an Ugandan government pension. The latter is discounted more than the former, one presumes. There's even variation within the United States. Puerto Rican government pensions are now being discounted more than, say, Oregonian government pensions.


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## BBCWatcher

rsetzer99 said:


> It is rather urgent for me as we are in the process of buying a house, and I would like to know, before I put down my contract deposit, whether I should not even bother.


This answer is easy. You should not buy a home in Italy if the loss of household wealth from a quick sale (due to a visa denial) would materially affect your lifestyle. (And "quick" is a relative term when it comes to transacting Italian real estate.)

Nobody can guarantee you a favorable visa decision. You must assume the worst case (a visa denial), then decide whether you can afford the gamble, for it is a gamble. If you cannot afford the gamble, then adjust your plan. Either rent instead of buy (probably a good idea anyway -- _buying_ a home in a country where you've never resided?), or don't do either (i.e. don't apply for an ER visa).

Note that there are several European countries where buying a home, of a certain minimum value, is the key element (but not the only element) in a successful visa application. Italy is not one of those countries.


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## rsetzer99

Well, yes, I assumed that 'non-employment income' went without saying since one is not allowed to work on an Elective Residence Visa. My point was, (and things are starting to spin off on tangents here) was that the Consulates would place the most weight on income that was the most stable. Government Pensions, Private Pensions are income streams that will have a document that says exactly how much you will receive each month. Bureaucrats love documents with specific numbers. Even a (For example, perhaps you have income from property rentals. This can vary a great deal and they will take that into account)

And Rent/Buy, both are significant upfront costs that must be committed even before you take your papers to the Consulate for them to tsk tsk over. So of course, hard data is desired when there are rumors that the rules have taken a hard left turn. (And it is at this point mostly rumors. The Miami Consulate reports have been known for quite some time, but little is specifically reported about experiences at the others).


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## accbgb

rsetzer99 said:


> Well, yes, I assumed that 'non-employment income' went without saying since one is not allowed to work on an Elective Residence Visa. My point was, (and things are starting to spin off on tangents here) was that the Consulates would place the most weight on income that was the most stable. Government Pensions, Private Pensions are income streams that will have a document that says exactly how much you will receive each month. Bureaucrats love documents with specific numbers. Even a (For example, perhaps you have income from property rentals. This can vary a great deal and they will take that into account)
> 
> And Rent/Buy, both are significant upfront costs that must be committed even before you take your papers to the Consulate for them to tsk tsk over. So of course, hard data is desired when there are rumors that the rules have taken a hard left turn. (And it is at this point mostly rumors. The Miami Consulate reports have been known for quite some time, but little is specifically reported about experiences at the others).


I hear where you are coming from, but there seems to be little doubt about the €4,000 monthly income for the _first_ applicant; the variance that has been reported relates to the second, third, etc,. persons in the party. Miami seems to be holding to a strict €4,000 per person, whereas at least some consulates have been reported to use a lesser standard for additional persons. So, perhaps €4,000 for one person or €6,000 for a married couple with no children.


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## rsetzer99

A sensible approach like this from the Chicago Consulate is what I do hope for. Miami has always seemed be the extreme, and they appear to have jumped from $3500 to $4000 sometime in the last year. And outside of them, the rest of the talk is rumors and anecdotal.

So, we shall see. It will be a while, and that may be in my favor. Perhaps things may settle by next May. I will eventually give a detailed report.


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## BBCWatcher

You're simply not going to be able to collect statistically meaningful data to make a solid forecast, at least because it's impossible to gather any meaningful insight into other applicants and their characteristics (financial and otherwise). These visa applications are private, and there aren't very many of them anyway. You'll just have to plan for both possible outcomes (approval and denial).

If you cannot afford the commitment to lodge an application, then don't. It's a gamble, and there's just no way around it. Some people can afford to gamble, and a few people can afford to gamble a lot -- like buying a magnificent home in Italy using the spare change they find between sofa cushions (metaphorically speaking, usually). This is a rich person's game, quite simply, where "rich" is defined as reasonably well-to-do or higher.


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## NickZ

rsetzer99 said:


> And Rent/Buy, both are significant upfront costs.


With the current market there is no reason to commit to an unconditional contract. Especially if you're buying. I don't know how much time you've spent in Italy but unless you have strong ties it's likely you'll decide the first place you pick isn't the place you want to stay. Bad enough if it's a long term rental but if you're buying it would be a serious problem.


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## rsetzer99

Well, it certainly should be possible to collect more meaningful data than the current round of rumors. Yes, the procedure is private, but it certainly is allowable to watch forums and send private messages to people who have recently completed the process and politely ask questions. 

Yes, we have been to Italy a number of times and have many very close friends there. The area we have picked is the one we want, and the house in that area is the one we want. If it ended up being a holiday home for 90 day blocks, it would not cripple us. It would be very annoying, but not a financial disaster. I am 'somewhat' confident that we will be granted a visa. 

My aim is to see if some decent reports from the field can be applied against the current climate of rumor. Rumor turns into worry, and then gets amplified. You can see that in some of the posts in this very long thread. A good dose of - ok, lets calm down and see if we can find out more information - will be of benefit to anyone contemplating the process. 

Lastly, the idea of a conditional contract was intriguing, but I do not believe it would be workable as you must have either a completed deed or formal lease before you begin the visa process. Therefore the up front cost, and yes, as BBC points out, if this is a make or break figure, you better not do it. And if it is a make or break figure, then you probably won't make the cut anyway. Ultimately, this is mostly a hurdle for those from the US. Flying back and forth every three months. Heck, in looking at my numbers, the amount of tax I would not be paying to Italy would cover two pairs of round trip premium economy tickets, and then some.


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## accbgb

Apparently the Los Angeles consulate recently posted this document on their website at Italian Elective Residence Visa

It includes the following text:



> The visa applicant must show solid bank account/s and a set monthly income.
> 
> For example a single applicant must have a monthly income of minimum Euro 2,596.60 (at an exchange rate of $1.30 equals $3,375.58).


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## rsetzer99

They could at least use an exchange rate that is not years old.  Still, its a baseline. And would it kill them to say if they additional person amount is an added precentage (I've seen 40% frequently on official Italian sources). I think they get a perverse joy out of being as vague as they can. They like so see people sweating on the other side of the glass.


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## BBCWatcher

rsetzer99 said:


> I think they get a perverse joy out of being as vague as they can. They like so see people sweating on the other side of the glass.


I seriously doubt it.

For perspective, _every_ foreigner applying for a visa to the United States (USCIS/State Department) and entering the United States (CBP) deals with officers who have virtually unlimited discretion, and foreigners have practically (or actually) no right of appeal. They make judgment calls all the time, with finality. Different officers make different judgments -- and the same officers even make different judgments in similar cases.

Italy operates the same way -- and so do practically all other countries. Except that Italy actually offers an Elective Residence visa to some qualified applicants. Unlike Italy, the United States has no "retirement visa" -- nothing comparable. For this (small) cohort at least, Italy is extraordinarily generous. Let's try to remember that -- and, if you're a foreigner, your place in the world. Unless it's your country of citizenship (or treaty area in the case of the EU/EEA and EU/EEA citizens), every visa, every entry, is a _privilege_, nothing more.


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## Italia-Mx

I wouldn't assume that your $7,000 monthy combined income is a guarantee for a visa. The consulates may take other circumstances into consideration. For example:

I had been living in Italy as an Italian citizen for ten years (retired) at which time, I returned to the USA to try and bring my companion back to Italy with me. He showed $7,000 secure monthly income for just himself and the consulate agreed to give him a visa because he would be in Italy with me, an Italian citizen, and because one of my Italian relatives agreed to be a "sponsor" for him. 

In the end, he didn't need the visa because he obtained his Italian passport through his Italian grand-father, which the consulate knew was also in process but might take longer than we wanted to wait to get back to Italy. So all of these extra circumstances were already in play when the consulate said his income would be sufficient. Therefore, I wouldn't assume that because you think you meet the income requirements and you have friends in Italy and you've spent a lot of time there, that you're good to go. If your friends are not Italian citizens but other foreigners like yourself who cannot "sponsor" you, a consulate would not likely consider this as a reason to give you a visa.


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## NickZ

rsetzer99 said:


> They could at least use an exchange rate that is not years old.  .


The consulates update Fx rates every three months. If things hadn't changed they change the local currency amount for fees etc this way.


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## accbgb

NickZ said:


> The consulates update Fx rates every three months. If things hadn't changed they change the local currency amount for fees etc this way.


I agree except that rate of $1.30 = €1.00 is way more than a few months old; more like a few years. The current rate is $1.139 = €1.00.

I wonder if they deliberately use a "middle of the road" exchange rate to cover possible future changes. The rate was as high as $1.55 = €1.00 in June, 2008; $1.30 would very nearly split the difference between today's rate and the high point.


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## rsetzer99

Is it just me, or has the Miami Consulate web site scrubbed pretty much everything relating to Visa's? All of the US Consulates tend to use the same template, but suddenly Miami is down to a very minimal style, with minimal information to boot.


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