# Fines for wearing bikini in the streets of Salou



## Pesky Wesky

Great article from the Telegraph. Love these quotes...

*British tourists face fines of nearly £250 for failing to cover up their bikinis or bare chests on the streets of a popular Spanish seaside resort. *

Actually it's all tourists, not just the Brits as the Telegraph has led us to believe

*"It is not normal to go the market with your packet on show or round the tourist sites in a thong." said Alberto del Hierro, councillor for Tourism in Salou.* 

Here's the article in full

Tourists face £250 bikini fines at Spanish holiday resort - Telegraph

By the way here's a link to an article about Saloufest mentioned in the Telegraph article... Although you might prefer to remain ignorance
What happens when 8,000 of Britain's best and brightest descended on a Spanish family holiday resort - it will make a football hooligan blush | Mail Online


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## dunmovin

Pesky Wesky said:


> Great article from the Telegraph. Love these quotes...
> 
> *British tourists face fines of nearly £250 for failing to cover up their bikinis or bare chests on the streets of a popular Spanish seaside resort. *
> 
> Actually it's all tourists, not just the Brits as the Telegraph has led us to believe
> 
> *"It is not normal to go the market with your packet on show or round the tourist sites in a thong." said Alberto del Hierro, councillor for Tourism in Salou.*
> 
> Here's the article in full
> 
> Tourists face £250 bikini fines at Spanish holiday resort - Telegrap
> 
> By the way here's a link to an article about Saloufest mentioned in the Telegraph article... Although you might prefer to remain ignorance
> [url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1263169/What-happens-8-000-Britains-best-brightest-descended-Spanish-family-holiday-resort--make-football-hooligan-blush.html]What happens when 8,000 of Britain's best and brightest descended on a Spanish family holiday resort - it will make a football hooligan blush | Mail Online


so the town hall is skint and in need of some cash?


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## gerrit

I doubt weither they'll enforce that law because that's basically scarying away tourists. With all respect to the citizens of Salou, but if you decide to live there you know what to expect. It's like buying a cheap house close to an airport and then complain about the noise of the planes.

I live very close to the sea and the streets are crowded by men in bare chests and girls in bikini tops. If one cannot stand that, then don't move close to a touristic seaside resort. I just try to make the most of it and enjoy the sight  I cannot imagine why someone'd be bothered by it ; it's not like a bikini or a swimming trousers is pure decadence. I'd be much more bothered about the amount of drunks in a resort like Salou than about the dress being adapted to the climate and environment.


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## MaidenScotland

I hate seeing people parade round with as little clothing on as possible.
I do not want to sit on chair after someone has sat there letting the bare sweaty back soak into the cushions. 
In the West Indies you are refused entry into banks etc if you are not dressed in street wear.
There used to be little notices in the free tourist papers showing a caricature of a women in a bikini accompanied with
Honey you look cute and you look sweet just don't wear your swimwear on the street.

They also had one for a man showing him not wearing his shirt but I can't remember the prose that went with it.


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## jojo

How difficult is it to put a dress or big tee shirt on to go to a shop FFS!????? Other shoppers dont really want to see enormous sunburnt thighs and bellies covered in cellulite wobbling around LOL

(oh dear, do I sound like a grumpy old woman??????????)

Jo xx


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## MaidenScotland

jojo said:


> How difficult is it to put a dress or big tee shirt on to go to a shop FFS!????? Other shoppers dont really want to see enormous sunburnt thighs and bellies covered in cellulite wobbling around LOL
> 
> (oh dear, do I sound like a grumpy old woman??????????)
> 
> Jo xx




Not at all Jo.. it's enough to put you off your lunch.


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> How difficult is it to put a dress or big tee shirt on to go to a shop FFS!????? Other shoppers dont really want to see enormous sunburnt thighs and bellies covered in cellulite wobbling around LOL
> 
> (oh dear, do I sound like a grumpy old woman??????????)
> 
> Jo xx


Emphatically: No.
Where will it end? If it's OK to parade around in your bikini or Speedos eek then why not knickers and bra or underpants? When I take Azorito out early in the morning why do I bother to change out of my jimjams?
And (if I needed either which as yet I do not) why not go out in a hairnet and without my false teeth?
I can't see anything wrong in expecting people to dress appropriately which means town wear for towns and beach wear for the beach. I'm not a great fan of 'dressing up' but there are times when self-respect and good manners require observance of dress codes.
Sometimes I wish there was a 'good taste' test at airports. Prague was spoilt for me by loud, coarse, stupid stag and hen parties. Most grown-ups don't want to see men in tutus and make up or women with silly devil horns drunkenly screeching and swearing in foreign streets. 
There are more than enough chavvy Brits in Spain without seeing more of them than necessary.
I am no oil painting and around 70% of me should be well covered for reasons of both aesthetics and good manners. So I dress appropriately. It's different by my pool, I can swim naked if I so desire. Our garden wall is high enough to protect innocent passers-by.
I recently objected to the Maitre d' at my London hotel about the habits of American guests eating breakfast with baseball caps on and Russians coming to breakfast in slippers and with braces on view...no jacket.
So I agree 100% with Jo and Maiden ScotlaND.
Cover up or s** off to Blackpool.


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## Veronica

I think its great and I wish they would do the same in Cyprus. 
I hate to see women in bikini tops and men with no shirts and their disgusting beer guts hanging over their shorts parading round the streets of Paphos.
As for the stupid remark from a nameless poster who says don't move to a place like that, what about the locals who grew up there, whose town it is? 
I know that the Cypriots find that sort of thing offensive, they are very religious and to my way of thinking if you go to someones country you should respect the local sensitivities.


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## owdoggy

Thank god for this thread.....I was beginning to think it was just me

Got it in one mrypg9............ well ok then.... a few but yes, yes & thrice yes.


Doggy


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## mrypg9

Veronica said:


> I think its great and I wish they would do the same in Cyprus.
> I hate to see women in bikini tops and men with no shirts and their disgusting beer guts hanging over their shorts parading round the streets of Paphos.
> As for the stupid remark from a nameless poster who says don't move to a place like that, what about the locals who grew up there, whose town it is?
> I know that the Cypriots find that sort of thing offensive, they are very religious and to my way of thinking if you go to someones country you should respect the local sensitivities.


Yes, people forget about the locals and their norms and cultural practices. My Czech friends are truly horrified and sad that for most Brits, Prague is about cheap beer and sex.
They are offended that their city is not admired as it should be, for its architecture, musical heritage and its importance as a great centre of European culture.
The new Barbarians are completely ignorant of all that. Beer at cheap prices and seedy sex clubs are the attraction for them.


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## mrypg9

owdoggy said:


> Thank god for this thread.....I was beginning to think it was just me
> 
> Well, as you can see, it isn't - and even if it were, you would be right and the rest ...wrong!
> 
> As the hymn says: 'Dare to be a Daniel'....or a Doggy


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## jojo

owdoggy said:


> Thank god for this thread.....I was beginning to think it was just me
> 
> 
> 
> Doggy



So would you walk into Mercadona in a G string doggy???? :madgrin::madgrin::faint2:

Jo xxx


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## owdoggy

jojo said:


> So would you walk into Mercadona in a G string doggy???? :madgrin::madgrin::faint2:
> 
> Jo xxx


Definitely...... depending on how big the bet was..........and if it was a Wednesday or not.


Doggy


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## MaidenScotland

I remember when you could get arrested for wearing a bikini on the beach in Spain and no one wants to go back to that but it didn't stop people flocking to Spain for a holiday then and I am sure that not being allowed to flaunt yourself all over town will keep them away now.
Manners and little bit of decorum harms no one 

Maiden


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## nigele2

I remember a few years back a golf club captain calld (yes for real ) Brian Putt.

At the committee meeting the pro was complaining that he could not sell the number one selling golf shirt (as worn by David Duval, the British Open champion) as it did not have a collar (club rules). There was big pressure but in a room of about 70 Mr Putt took the floor and said in a quiet but most determined voice "It's easy to lower standards, but almost impossible to bring them up" and he won the day.

OK the pro left within a year 

Hope in this case Brian is proved wrong


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## Pesky Wesky

Veronica said:


> I think its great and I wish they would do the same in Cyprus.
> I hate to see women in bikini tops and men with no shirts and their disgusting beer guts hanging over their shorts parading round the streets of Paphos.
> As for the stupid remark from a nameless poster who says don't move to a place like that, what about the locals who grew up there, whose town it is?
> I know that the Cypriots find that sort of thing offensive, they are very religious and to my way of thinking if you go to someones country you should respect the local sensitivities.


I agree with trying to stay in tune with your local culture if at all possible. And let's face it the great majority of us are far more attractive with clothes on than not. The few that do look ok in swim wear get drooled on and that's not very pleasant either, is it.?
And as you were talking about being in touch with local culture a PS for you. If you call someone Spanish stupid it's *really* insulting. Children can swear all they like, but will get told off if they call their playmates Estupido...


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## gerrit

Veronica said:


> I think its great and I wish they would do the same in Cyprus.
> I hate to see women in bikini tops and men with no shirts and their disgusting beer guts hanging over their shorts parading round the streets of Paphos.
> As for the stupid remark from a nameless poster who says don't move to a place like that, what about the locals who grew up there, whose town it is?
> I know that the Cypriots find that sort of thing offensive, they are very religious and to my way of thinking if you go to someones country you should respect the local sensitivities.


The thing is that it depends from country to country. In a religious society like Malta, Egypt, Tunisia, Turkey, etc I would also say it's not exactly right to parade through the city wearing beach gear.

However, this is Salou we're talking about, a place which many years embraced this whole image because they made huge profits from tourism because of the whole "everything goes" image. They made huge profits from it, so complaining now about a phenomenon that they partially kept intact because it was profitable isn't exactly consequent and cannot be compared to a religious society which never tried to brand itself for the type of tourists that would go to places like Ibiza and Salou. In a place like Malta or Egypt it would be quite ignorant if a tourist walks in beach gear through the city ; in a place like Salou it's such a common sight that I'm surprised some people still pay attention to it.

I don't really like Salou myself by the way, too much decadence. I then don't talk about the clothing but more about the whole disco and alcohol culture amongst tourists. With bikini's in the streets I have no issue. I live close to the sea and see girls on the metro and streets wearing beach gear, on their way to or coming back from the shore. I don't see the issue with it personally. I can see though that the situation is different in more conservative societies.





mrypg9 said:


> Yes, people forget about the locals and their norms and cultural practices. My Czech friends are truly horrified and sad that for most Brits, Prague is about cheap beer and sex.
> They are offended that their city is not admired as it should be, for its architecture, musical heritage and its importance as a great centre of European culture.
> The new Barbarians are completely ignorant of all that. Beer at cheap prices and seedy sex clubs are the attraction for them.


That was one of the reasons why I moved out of CZ: the whole beer and nightlife culture. Art with a meaning died out since capitalism and mass tourism came in. The architecture reminds of the art center Prague used to be, now I mainly saw drunks, gambling houses and dirty streets. I am glad I left that country. Sadly enough, part of the blame goes to the locals as well, because enough people operate these gambling and sex houses or welcome tourists to go totally drunk in their bar, because the cash comes in ... Also, sadly enough, I came across many Czechs whose social life was about alcohol pretty much like the tourists were coming to get drunk.


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## xabiaxica

jojo said:


> So would you walk into Mercadona in a G string doggy???? :madgrin::madgrin::faint2:
> 
> Jo xxx


you wouldn't be allowed to in our local one

they will even lend you a t-shirt


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## MaidenScotland

xabiachica said:


> you wouldn't be allowed to in our local one
> 
> they will even lend you a t-shirt




I say good for them:clap2:

The thought of barely clothed customers leaning over the fish counter


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## owdoggy

MaidenScotland said:


> I say good for them:clap2:
> 
> The thought of barely clothed customers leaning over the fish counter


 Aye, & with some of them round here you'd be hard pressed to work out exactly where the fish smell is coming from



Doggy


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## mrypg9

gerrit said:


> *However, this is Salou we're talking about, a place which many years embraced this whole image because they made huge profits from tourism because of the whole "everything goes" image. They made huge profits from it, so complaining now about a phenomenon that they partially kept intact because it was profitable isn't exactly consequent and cannot be compared to a religious society which never tried to brand itself for the type of tourists that would go to places like Ibiza and Salou. In a place like Malta or Egypt it would be quite ignorant if a tourist walks in beach gear through the city ; in a place like Salou it's such a common sight that I'm surprised some people still pay attention to it.*
> 
> 
> But most of the time it's the few 'locals' who make money and the many 'ordinary' people who have to put up with the consequences. It's probably the international tourist companies who rake in the most money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> That was one of the reasons why I moved out of CZ: the whole beer and nightlife culture. Art with a meaning died out since capitalism and mass tourism came in. The architecture reminds of the art center Prague used to be, now I mainly saw drunks, gambling houses and dirty streets. I am glad I left that country. Sadly enough, part of the blame goes to the locals as well, because enough people operate these gambling and sex houses or welcome tourists to go totally drunk in their bar, because the cash comes in ... Also, sadly enough, I came across many Czechs whose social life was about alcohol pretty much like the tourists were coming to get drunk*.



Again, most of the money-makers in the CR aren't indigenous Czechs but foreigners, although of course some Czechs have done very nicely out of the alcohol and sex culture. Apparently most of the bars, clubs, shops etc. on Vaclavske Namesti are owned by Russians, Bulgarians etc. I'd say 90% of the people in the city centre after 7p.m. are non-Czech.
I'm not so sure that art had a great deal more 'meaning' under Communism - after all, anything remotely controversial was stamped on and people like Kundera, Klima, Forman etc. were either banned from publishing their work or were forced into exile. But I understand what you are saying.
I spent a lot of time in Prague pre-1989 and the Prague of today is a different planet, not just a different city.
But the point for me is simply: why should the many suffer because the few, in search of the biggest profit, cater to the lowest common denominator?


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## dunmovin

jojo said:


> So would you walk into Mercadona in a G string doggy???? :madgrin::madgrin::faint2:
> 
> Jo xxx


next time you go to mercadona, have a look at the signs on the doors. There is one that point out that no one is a llowed to enter shop if they are topless


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## MaidenScotland

The only good thing about nearly naked in a shop is that it deters shoplifters


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## gerrit

mrypg9 said:


> Again, most of the money-makers in the CR aren't indigenous Czechs but foreigners, although of course some Czechs have done very nicely out of the alcohol and sex culture. Apparently most of the bars, clubs, shops etc. on Vaclavske Namesti are owned by Russians, Bulgarians etc. I'd say 90% of the people in the city centre after 7p.m. are non-Czech.
> I'm not so sure that art had a great deal more 'meaning' under Communism - after all, anything remotely controversial was stamped on and people like Kundera, Klima, Forman etc. were either banned from publishing their work or were forced into exile. But I understand what you are saying.
> I spent a lot of time in Prague pre-1989 and the Prague of today is a different planet, not just a different city.
> But the point for me is simply: why should the many suffer because the few, in search of the biggest profit, cater to the lowest common denominator?


Let me just say it like this: I was lucky enough to often drink a coca-cola in a pub where one of the Plastic People members came frequently. Had some very interesting chats with him. Back before the fall of the Iron Curtain the Prague Underground was booming, it was art with a meaning, art with a message. Must have been extremely exciting and fascinating to be part of that underground movement when art was still so alive.


To me it was a disappointment because I wanted to discover a different culture. I'm glad for local people that they have liberty now, but I guess I was looking for something else. Maybe I should have opted for Belarus instead, probably the last place in Europe where the Eastern Europe feeling is still very much present. And surprise surprise, there you still have an underground scene with artists who really use their art to spread a message. A band like NRM is a pretty good example. 


I lived in Belfast and never saw any other city in Europe with so many open mike nights, literature readings etc. All with very meaningful art. It was their way of talking about the daily life in a divided society. As I got several friends in Israel I'm somewhat aware of the local arts scene, and again it's very vibrant and with many artists not shunning politically loaded art. It's just a common reaction that in places where people live a life they don't want to live, an underground movement will follow. 



Anyways, we're going off topic here ... We're the year 2010. Isn't it time to get over the idea that showing the body is taboo? Here in Barcelona it's even legal to be naked in the streets. Only few use the law, but those who do never caused uproar. Being totally nude is too extreme for me (in fact I cover up more than most people, being one of the few men who always keeps a t-shirt on when swimming in sea) but I think being prudish about a bikini is shifting towards the other extreme.

And to those who say that only few look OK in bikini ... Let's just say I see pretty much eye candy (living close to the sea) and that my hormones have been more active than they've been in years  Drooling and staring is inpolite, enjoying in a normal way (without drooling or staring) the sight of a pretty person is totally normal IMO. Why all the prudish behaviour? And it's not like a bikini is such a shocking thing, it covers all parts that some people would label to be private parts.


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## MaidenScotland

gerrit said:


> Let me just say it like this: I was lucky enough to often drink a coca-cola in a pub where one of the Plastic People members came frequently. Had some very interesting chats with him. Back before the fall of the Iron Curtain the Prague Underground was booming, it was art with a meaning, art with a message. Must have been extremely exciting and fascinating to be part of that underground movement when art was still so alive.
> 
> 
> To me it was a disappointment because I wanted to discover a different culture. I'm glad for local people that they have liberty now, but I guess I was looking for something else. Maybe I should have opted for Belarus instead, probably the last place in Europe where the Eastern Europe feeling is still very much present. And surprise surprise, there you still have an underground scene with artists who really use their art to spread a message. A band like NRM is a pretty good example.
> 
> 
> I lived in Belfast and never saw any other city in Europe with so many open mike nights, literature readings etc. All with very meaningful art. It was their way of talking about the daily life in a divided society. As I got several friends in Israel I'm somewhat aware of the local arts scene, and again it's very vibrant and with many artists not shunning politically loaded art. It's just a common reaction that in places where people live a life they don't want to live, an underground movement will follow.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyways, we're going off topic here ... We're the year 2010. Isn't it time to get over the idea that showing the body is taboo? Here in Barcelona it's even legal to be naked in the streets. Only few use the law, but those who do never caused uproar. Being totally nude is too extreme for me (in fact I cover up more than most people, being one of the few men who always keeps a t-shirt on when swimming in sea) but I think being prudish about a bikini is shifting towards the other extreme.
> 
> And to those who say that only few look OK in bikini ... Let's just say I see pretty much eye candy (living close to the sea) and that my hormones have been more active than they've been in years  Drooling and staring is inpolite, enjoying in a normal way (without drooling or staring) the sight of a pretty person is totally normal IMO. Why all the prudish behaviour? And it's not like a bikini is such a shocking thing, it covers all parts that some people would label to be private parts.



I do not want to sit on a chair where they have put their sweaty body onto the cushions. Thats not being prudish it's being particular and I believe anyone with manners would not subject me to a sweaty cushion 
I also noticed that you only mentioned bikini...


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## gerrit

I happily admit that I enjoy the sight of pretty women in beach gear passing through my street. I won't drool, I won't stare, I won't even talk to them or bother them. Just a normal look. Nothing unnormal or shameful about that. And well, replace bikini with monokini and I'd say the same, we're the year 2010 

I do understand the hygienic aspects of sitting in the metro after a guy/girl in string just sat down there. However, that said, I rarely saw that. Most of them walk around in beach gear only in the area near the beach but will put something on as soon as they move towards the city center. OK, exceptions exist, but still... And in all honesty I find the homeless folks begging for money while their clothes indicate they hadn't had a shower in weeks less hygienic than a seat that was used by a girl in bikini or a guy in swimming trousers.


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## jojo

gerrit said:


> I happily admit that I enjoy the sight of pretty women in beach gear passing through my street. I won't drool, I won't stare, I won't even talk to them or bother them. Just a normal look. Nothing unnormal or shameful about that. And well, replace bikini with monokini and I'd say the same, we're the year 2010


Now thats discrimination against the rest of us!!! 

Jo xxx


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## gerrit

???

All girls I know will equally look when they see a pretty man pass by. I just look (not staring!) when a pretty woman happens to walk around. What's so unnormal about that? And my point of mentioning the monokini is just saying that it doesn't show anything that is not a common sight, and that there is no reason at all to consider it shocking. I wouldn't call myself a nudity fan at all, but I don't see any reason in being prudish neither.


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## jojo

gerrit said:


> ???
> 
> All girls I know will equally look when they see a pretty man pass by. I just look (not staring!) when a pretty woman happens to walk around. What's so unnormal about that? And my point of mentioning the monokini is just saying that it doesn't show anything that is not a common sight, and that there is no reason at all to consider it shocking. I wouldn't call myself a nudity fan at all, but I don't see any reason in being prudish neither.


........ and does that include pensioners and/or those folk who have serious skin, body hair and weight issues??? Who decides if someone is "pretty" enough to be allowed to parade around in a monokini, be it a male or a female????


Jo xxx


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## MaidenScotland

And my point of mentioning the monokini is just saying that it doesn't show anything that is not a common sight, and that there is no reason at all to consider it shocking

And my point is that it shouldn't be a common sight.


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## sensationalfrog

been told people wander around tescos in pyjamas,i only go to mercadona to look at the bikini clad girls


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## littleredrooster

To me its all about respect.
Respect for the locals,their culture and traditions, as long as they are in the majority and running the place to match their own desires and standards.
Matters not that its a holiday resort,..there are plenty more to choose from, much more trashy and easy going for ppl.that want that sort of thing.
Also loads of nudy beaches official and unofficial throughout the EU and and I admit to accidently wandering along quite a few myself over the years.
However Salou isn't just there for trashy Brits, even though I admit to being one myself.
They may prefer to be go little more upmarket and pull in some of the well heeled,flash, big city folk,but thats their choice at the end of the day.
For all I can be quite content being my usual scruffy self on the most of the Costas,I think it's better that folk have a choice, rather than bring all places down to the same level.
Ppl. think that because the Spanish relaxed their laws regarding bikinis and such, that they had all automatically embraced all other more Westernised traditions.
It is a popular misconception, and some of their attitudes to dress sense and sex are still affected by ancient traditions going back long before Franco's time,indeed many hundreds of years,and I think that at least as long as they exist,should be respected.


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## gerrit

jojo said:


> ........ and does that include pensioners and/or those folk who have serious skin, body hair and weight issues??? Who decides if someone is "pretty" enough to be allowed to parade around in a monokini, be it a male or a female????
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


Everyone should be allowed to do it. It's not because someone is overweight that he/she should be restricted from walking around in beach gear when just heading for or coming back from the beach ; beauty's in the eye of the beholder so if someone looks unpretty, then just look the other side  




MaidenScotland said:


> And my point of mentioning the monokini is just saying that it doesn't show anything that is not a common sight, and that there is no reason at all to consider it shocking
> 
> And my point is that it shouldn't be a common sight.


It's a body part like any other body part. The sexual connotation is one given by humans and the shocking aspect is another connotation given to breasts by those who are conservative (without any negative undertone intended). In the end it's part of the body pretty much like any other part. And the time a bare breast was rare is long gone. And yes, it does look sexy to most straight men, but then bare legs are as well, so should wearing a skirt in the city be forbidden as well?

Come on, it's 2010, the last thing we need is a conservative law taking us back in time ...

PS: talking about Spain now, I obviously know that walking around in bikini or swimming pants in a country like Iran, Vatican City or so is a different issue. In Spain people are used to more than a bare breast or a guy walking around without a shirt ... And I say this purely because I don't like conservative attitudes when it comes to dress ; I personally always keep my shirt on even in the sea but I don't think I should be telling someone else what he/she should wear or not wear.


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## Veronica

You just don't get it do you Gerrit?
When you go and live or go on hoilday in another country you should respect the sensitivities of the local population. Yes Spain did close their eys to bikinis etc at first but just look around and you can see it has got out of hand. People go into restaurants half naked, men (and women)with huge guts hanging over their shorts sit filling their faces and putting other people off the thought of food. 
Why should we be subjected to disgusting sights like that and more to the point why the local population have to endure it?
If you want to parade around half naked (or even totally naked) then do it on a designated beach or in the privacy of your own home and allow the more sensitive of us to enjoy the beaches and restaurants without having to look at masses hideous white flesh.


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## MaidenScotland

sensationalfrog said:


> been told people wander around tescos in pyjamas,i only go to mercadona to look at the bikini clad girls




And Tesco stopped them doing it....


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## jojo

gerrit said:


> Everyone should be allowed to do it. It's not because someone is overweight that he/she should be restricted from walking around in beach gear when just heading for or coming back from the beach ; beauty's in the eye of the beholder so if someone looks unpretty, then just look the other side


You are missing the point. There are a lot of people, in fact I would say that most people would prefer to be covered up! Yes one or two folk on holiday may enjoy the temporary freedom of wandering around in a bikini where no one knows them, but trust me, for most people its not about being allowed to, its their own conscience, their own body image and they dont want to! FFS, my mum had bowel cancer and wore a colostomy bag, she wouldnt go out without a coat, let alone in a bikini! Society, and our own insecurities and human instinct are what drive us to wear clothes. Its how it is and its how we're judged

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

gerrit said:


> Let me just say it like this: I was lucky enough to often drink a coca-cola in a pub where one of the Plastic People members came frequently. Had some very interesting chats with him. Back before the fall of the Iron Curtain the Prague Underground was booming, it was art with a meaning, art with a message. Must have been extremely exciting and fascinating to be part of that underground movement when art was still so alive.
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> But most of the underground art was, to put it frankly, crap. Not much better in terms of aesthetics than officially sanctioned 'art'. As for Plastic People....imo a bunch of poor Zappa imitators. I spent a lot of time in Communist Poland, the Soviet Union and what was then Czechoslovakia and life was harsh, dreary and for some downright dangerous. It's too easy for Westerners to infuse it with some kind of retrospective false glamour. Nothing remotely glamorous about a nation of people without deodorant.
> To me the question of 'dress codes' isn't an isolated thing, it's part of a whole culture of consideration for others, self-respect and dignity. Remove all taboos and restraints and we will revert to true 'animal' status. Dumbing down is now our official national culture. Dressing to a code of some kind requires discipline and effort, qualities in short supply.
> It's a very slippery slope and the direction is downwards. If you can wear what you like where you like....then logically why wear clothes at all in the summer?
> And why not apply the same logic to all aspects of human behaviour? Do what you like, where you like, say what you like etc. Why not, if the only judge of what is or isn't appropriate is yourself?
> This whole issue of dress codes isn't really a trivial one as it relates to the 'me culture' of the sixties and the 'let it all hang out' (literally in the case of large people in small swimsuits) way of thinking. It reflects on other areas of behaviour.
> The focus on the self as sole judge of conduct is typical of small children and responsible adults teach them to grow away from egocentricism to a more socially considerate outlook.
> If you took a poll on this issue you'd find a huge majority don't want to see flabby bellies, pale skin, muffin tops and hairy chests thrust before their gaze.
> Do it at home in your own garden or find a beach where you can enjoy the ugliness of your fellow-humans to your heart's content - for the truth is that few of us could model for a Michaelangelo.


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> gerrit said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let me just say it like this: I was lucky enough to often drink a coca-cola in a pub where one of the Plastic People members came frequently. Had some very interesting chats with him. Back before the fall of the Iron Curtain the Prague Underground was booming, it was art with a meaning, art with a message. Must have been extremely exciting and fascinating to be part of that underground movement when art was still so alive.
> 
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> If you took a poll on this issue you'd find a huge majority don't want to see flabby bellies, pale skin, muffin tops and hairy chests thrust before their gaze.
> 
> 
> 
> ....... and most of us dont want to show our own flabby bellies, pale skin..... etc for others to stare at - in horror!! My kids are horrified enough if I wear my bikini around our pool at home. In fact Ruby has a friend coming round today and I've been told in no uncertain terms to keep covered up!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx
Click to expand...


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## mrypg9

I could put a definite end to this discussion by simply arranging to parade around your town in a very small bikini.....or topless...or naked.
'Nuff said.


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## Veronica

Actually the one good thing about these hideous flabby half naked bodies that parade around the harbour in Paphos is that they make me feel good about my own not too pretty body


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## gerrit

mrypg9 said:


> But most of the underground art was, to put it frankly, crap. Not much better in terms of aesthetics than officially sanctioned 'art'. As for Plastic People....imo a bunch of poor Zappa imitators. I spent a lot of time in Communist Poland, the Soviet Union and what was then Czechoslovakia and life was harsh, dreary and for some downright dangerous. It's too easy for Westerners to infuse it with some kind of retrospective false glamour. Nothing remotely glamorous about a nation of people without deodorant.


Slightly offtopic, but the Plastic People always made me remember Velvet Underground in some way. I wouldn't say I'm a fan, I like some songs but that's it. However, I once read an article on AllMusic.com calling them the true punks because while bands like Sex Pistols, The Clash etc complained about their governments they could still record in top class studios, perform in concert halls without having to secretly organise their gigs etc. You gotta respect the Plastics for their determination, even when I agree that musically it's quite clear from which bands they borrowed sound or at least part of the sound. 



Veronica said:


> You just don't get it do you Gerrit?
> When you go and live or go on hoilday in another country you should respect the sensitivities of the local population. Yes Spain did close their eys to bikinis etc at first but just look around and you can see it has got out of hand. People go into restaurants half naked, men (and women)with huge guts hanging over their shorts sit filling their faces and putting other people off the thought of food.
> Why should we be subjected to disgusting sights like that and more to the point why the local population have to endure it?
> If you want to parade around half naked (or even totally naked) then do it on a designated beach or in the privacy of your own home and allow the more sensitive of us to enjoy the beaches and restaurants without having to look at masses hideous white flesh.


I get more than enough what you mean. Obviously you gotta adapt to the local culture. I lived in Turkey, and except for the beach itself I never saw women with skirts above knee length, men with bare chests (well, the odd exception existed...), let alone beach wear in the streets. But then, this is the local culture.

The culture of Spain is quite different. I haven't come across many locals taking offense in how people dress ; maybe depending on what type of people you hang out with. That said, I do live very close to the sea and except on the promenade and neighbouring streets I still have to see the first group of people (men/women) walking around in beach gear. Even just a few streets away from the beachside promenade, it becomes rare to see people in beach gear, and the few exceptions are usually the locals who are on their way from their apartment to the beach. 

Also, I didn't make any propaganda for walking around in beach gear. I didn't encourage any person, regardless if he/she is drop dead gorgeous or has a fat belly, to walk into a restaurant in beach gear (that said, even along the promenade I still have to see a person inside a restaurant dressed like that, and I do eat in these places quite often). I in fact never walk around in shorts and without shirt myself, I even keep my shirt on when swimming. It's not like I'm encouraging people to not cover up.
What I am saying however is that it's a "to each his own" thing in my opinion. I don't like the idea of people telling other people what to wear. Who am I to tell a person that he should stay out of the restaurant or put other clothes on just because he's a bit fat? I am not at all disencouraging people from covering up. I am however saying that people should make the choice for themselves weither they want to cover or not. I don't believe those walking in beach gear away from the promenade would be more than a tiny minority. The problem in my opinion lies with those taking offense in that, rather than in those few people walking around like that.

Obviously, this is Spain I'm talking about. It's common sense that other ways of thinking apply to Tunisia, Egypt, Iran, Vatican City, ... I pretty much doubt that here in Spain sensitivities of the locals are disrespected by tourists. Even in a place close to the sea such as where I live I rarely see any bare bellies or bikini's inside restaurants or shops (the sole exceptions being right next to the beach) and if there's people walking around like that it tend to be locals rather than tourists.


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## mrypg9

What I am saying however is that it's a "to each his own" thing in my opinion. I don't like the idea of people telling other people what to wear Gerrit


Now there's an interesting topic for debate.
So....you disapprove of 'black tie' dinners? Or dress codes at weddings - a recent invitation stipulated hats for ladies - so would a baseball cap be appropriate headgear? Or nightclub dress codes of the 'no jeans no trainers' variety?
Business suits for bankers and lawyers? Dungarees in the House of Commons?
Studies show that what we wear influences people's perceptions of us. That may be silly but it's a fact. Certain types of clothing signify authority, others denote the 'specialness' of an occasion.
Doing your own thing could lead to a dull and boring levelling out of social and work life that would take a lot of the harmless fun out of life. I also think that it will lead to a lack of social discrimination in general (I don't mean that in a snobbish sense) when there is a pressing need for a little discipline and self-control in many spheres.
As I said earlier, I'm no great fan of 'dressing up' - I'm now clad in a ten-year old pair of almost threadbare Levis shorts and an equally ancient polo shirt and certainly wouldn't be allowed in the Ladies Enclosure at Ascot or in the Dress Circle at Covent Garden.  But were I to find myself at either of these places I would make sure I was dressed to suit such a special occasion. If I felt that strongly about dressing up, I wouldn't go to such events at all.
And if you dislike the idea of 'telling people what to wear' -which we're not, we're just suggesting that people be more socially considerate -how far would you extend this principle to other forms of social conduct?


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## Jewel003

Totally agree with you Gerrit. As long as the local community made money,lots of it, they kept their mouths shut, were fine with the situation. But now, with the economy being on a very tight budget, they are finding ways to fill their wallets with tourist money in another way. 

As said, Salou is what it is, made this way with LOTS of help from the locals who received income from the 'sleazy' tourists they are now trying to fine. 

I also agree that there are countries, cities etc where this would not be acceptable, and these places have NEVER portrayed themselves as the place to be for cheap beer, sleazy discos, etc. 

As each and every tourist knows, if you want something trashy, go to places like Ibiza (and even there, the 'wanna get completely plastered and laid every night' kinda people remain in the areas that PROMOTE this kind of behavior, other areas of Ibiza are still untouched with this form of tourism) or a place like Salou. 

So, stop complaining about all the bare flesh there is to see. If you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen. Sure, I know, the locals can't exactly move...but like I said, they had NO problem with it for donkeys years, so......as for the expats that can't stand the sight......you can avoid Salou, and if you don't, then maybe you are subconciously a peeping tom and have yet to come out of the closet so to speak :juggle:





gerrit said:


> The thing is that it depends from country to country. In a religious society like Malta, Egypt, Tunisia, Turkey, etc I would also say it's not exactly right to parade through the city wearing beach gear.
> 
> However, this is Salou we're talking about, a place which many years embraced this whole image because they made huge profits from tourism because of the whole "everything goes" image. They made huge profits from it, so complaining now about a phenomenon that they partially kept intact because it was profitable isn't exactly consequent and cannot be compared to a religious society which never tried to brand itself for the type of tourists that would go to places like Ibiza and Salou. In a place like Malta or Egypt it would be quite ignorant if a tourist walks in beach gear through the city ; in a place like Salou it's such a common sight that I'm surprised some people still pay attention to it.
> 
> I don't really like Salou myself by the way, too much decadence. I then don't talk about the clothing but more about the whole disco and alcohol culture amongst tourists. With bikini's in the streets I have no issue. I live close to the sea and see girls on the metro and streets wearing beach gear, on their way to or coming back from the shore. I don't see the issue with it personally. I can see though that the situation is different in more conservative societies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That was one of the reasons why I moved out of CZ: the whole beer and nightlife culture. Art with a meaning died out since capitalism and mass tourism came in. The architecture reminds of the art center Prague used to be, now I mainly saw drunks, gambling houses and dirty streets. I am glad I left that country. Sadly enough, part of the blame goes to the locals as well, because enough people operate these gambling and sex houses or welcome tourists to go totally drunk in their bar, because the cash comes in ... Also, sadly enough, I came across many Czechs whose social life was about alcohol pretty much like the tourists were coming to get drunk.


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## MaidenScotland

Those caught drinking alcohol on the streets or having sex on the beach could also be prosecuted and beachwear will be banned from all but beachfront bars and restaurants and thats fine.. I can stay away from that but I cant stay away from the people who wander all over town parading their flesh. Barcelona has also brought in a cover up clause.


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## gerrit

Barcelona allows being naked anytime everywhere. Fully legal. That cover up close is nothing more than some advise hoping that people will follow. Obviously some will, many will not. As long as being naked in no matter what environment is legal, that cover up sign is nothing more than a polite question to cover up, knowing that legally they cannot enfore it.

That said, yesterday the world cup fiesta was the first time (and I live here now since a year) that I saw men in bare chests walking at the Rambla. Usually you only see this close to the beach. Yesterday was the first time I saw that, and they were not tourists but locals. The girls all had skirts up until their buttocks, again a common sight at the beach but not in the city center. Celebrations like yesterday may make people behave in a different way than usual, but this was the first time I saw it "en masse" in any part of town away from the seaside. (that said, no complaints about the legs displayed, without staring I enjoyed myself ) 

All people engaged in it were locals, and the local merchants didn't complain a single second because they were selling merch and souvenirs like crazy.

Like Jewel003 said: where were the prudish folks when Salou was making tons of money due to its attraction pole for tourists with a hedonistic lifestyle? They branded their town for it because they knew it would make them lots of money. To compare with for example islamic countries makes no sense, because not even resorts like Sharm Al Sheikh have ever promoted itself for hedonistic tourism.


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## gerrit

mrypg9 said:


> What I am saying however is that it's a "to each his own" thing in my opinion. I don't like the idea of people telling other people what to wear Gerrit
> 
> 
> Now there's an interesting topic for debate.
> So....you disapprove of 'black tie' dinners? Or dress codes at weddings - a recent invitation stipulated hats for ladies - so would a baseball cap be appropriate headgear? Or nightclub dress codes of the 'no jeans no trainers' variety?
> Business suits for bankers and lawyers? Dungarees in the House of Commons?
> Studies show that what we wear influences people's perceptions of us. That may be silly but it's a fact. Certain types of clothing signify authority, others denote the 'specialness' of an occasion.
> Doing your own thing could lead to a dull and boring levelling out of social and work life that would take a lot of the harmless fun out of life. I also think that it will lead to a lack of social discrimination in general (I don't mean that in a snobbish sense) when there is a pressing need for a little discipline and self-control in many spheres.
> As I said earlier, I'm no great fan of 'dressing up' - I'm now clad in a ten-year old pair of almost threadbare Levis shorts and an equally ancient polo shirt and certainly wouldn't be allowed in the Ladies Enclosure at Ascot or in the Dress Circle at Covent Garden.  But were I to find myself at either of these places I would make sure I was dressed to suit such a special occasion. If I felt that strongly about dressing up, I wouldn't go to such events at all.
> And if you dislike the idea of 'telling people what to wear' -which we're not, we're just suggesting that people be more socially considerate -how far would you extend this principle to other forms of social conduct?



That a lawyer, doctor etc has to keep a nice attitude is quite local, even when I couldn't care less if the doctor looks like a punk. I know most people do care, so yes, it's normal he has to dress accordingly. If that should include a tie and certain types of shirts is another thing, you can dress neatly without being told exactly what to wear.
In jobs where customer contact is limited, the situation is different. I look quite eccentric (and that's not myself saying that, but almost all people that know me) and wear the same clothes at work as elsewhere. I talk to customers via email and phone, so no harm that I dress in my "spare time" clothing. Some girls walk around with slippers and beach-like shorts (not bikini but not that much more lengthy) ; nobody cares because we don't need to meet the customer face-to-face.

So yeah, I understand (even when I think it's silly, I understand why it is like that) that certain jobs require certain dress. I'm lucky not to have such job.

As for weddings etc: I would want my own wedding to be as casual as possible, but again I understand some people like the official and classy aspect, so no problem there neither. I'd reject invitations for events which require such gear though. I have no problem with people making the request, it's up to the invitee to either accept the invitation or not.



So no, I don't disapprove of black-tie dinners, dress codes for weddings, etc. Who am I to disagree and force my opinion on others?
I don't disapprove this at all as long as the invitation can be declined for those who feel uncomfortable in such situations (which I have done several times)

Not sure what you mean with the other social situations, but I try to live by the idea that the only norm to always stick to is to never intentionally harm anyone else. Other than that, I don't like restrictions but as long as I have the freedom to seek the places without such restrictions in place, I won't ever even debate whatever someone else prefers to do. And then we're talking in general, not specifically dress-related.


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## gerrit

PS (as the edit button seems to have vanished I cannot add to the previous post): I personally dislike dress codes but I realise why they exist and why some people prefer it. Part of my statement when saying "to each his own" is that I don't mind anything, be it a black-tie dinner or a fancy wedding or such, it's only enforcing it on people which I strongly dislike. As long as the invitee is free to accept or reject the invitation then there's no issue at all.


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## mrypg9

So, stop complaining about all the bare flesh there is to see. If you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen. Sure, I know, the locals can't exactly move...but like I said, they had NO problem with it for donkeys years, so......as for the expats that can't stand the sight......you can avoid Salou, and if you don't, then maybe you are subconciously a peeping tom and have yet to come out of the closet so to speak Jewel QUOTE


So...does it ever occur to you that maybe only 5% of the 'locals' make money out of all these half-naked tourists and the other 95% might just have to put up with the inconvenience and offence to their eyes?
I doubt very much if anyone ever asked the ordinary working people of Salou if they wanted drunken British chavs to piss and vomit all over their town.
But as you see it, they should just put up with it, yeah? Tough if they can't afford to move somewhere more pleasant.
After all, a few people -maybe British tour operators?? - are making money so that's OK.....????
I'm lucky enough to be living in an area where visitors manage to enjoy themselves with their clothes on and without pissing, vomiting and copulating in the streets. And were I a 'peeping Tom, I certainly wouldn't want to ogle fat, drunken, unsightly people.
And by the way....I'm an immigrant, not an 'expat'. So are we all.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with prurience and everything to do with consideration for other people.
In my set of values, that comes before making money.


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## mrypg9

gerrit said:


> PS (as the edit button seems to have vanished I cannot add to the previous post): I personally dislike dress codes but I realise why they exist and why some people prefer it. Part of my statement when saying "to each his own" is that I don't mind anything, be it a black-tie dinner or a fancy wedding or *such, it's only enforcing it on people which I strongly dislike.* As long as the invitee is free to accept or reject the invitation then there's no issue at all.



But you have no problem with enforcing public nudity/semi-nudity on people?


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## gerrit

mrypg9 said:


> But you have no problem with enforcing public nudity/semi-nudity on people?


I'm not enforcing anything on anyone. I am never walking around uncovered myself, I won't ever tell someone to take off his shirt or dress in a mini skirt ... I however don't like the idea of someone choosing to do so, that he/she cannot. 

By the way, a bikini now classifies as semi-nudity?  Unless someone lives up in the mountains with the nearest beach at 1000 km away, it's one of the most common sights of all to be seen in a seaside town. Semi-nudity ??!


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## mrypg9

gerrit said:


> I'm not enforcing anything on anyone. I am never walking around uncovered myself, I won't ever tell someone to take off his shirt or dress in a mini skirt ... I however don't like the idea of someone choosing to do so, that he/she cannot.
> 
> By the way, a bikini now classifies as semi-nudity?  Unless someone lives up in the mountains with the nearest beach at 1000 km away, it's one of the most common sights of all to be seen in a seaside town. Semi-nudity ??!


Of course a bikini is semi-nudity. In fact, probably more than semi! More like three-quarters or more with some people.
And bikinis are a common sight in seaside towns....but on the beach, not in cafes, restaurants or shops.
I just don't see why people who live in a place should have no choice in the type of behaviour they have to witness.
As I said in my previous post, the people who make money from these people are in a minority, probably aren't local and probably keep well away from the town whose reputation they are trashing.
Maybe a poll of the residents should be carried out? I'd bet money they support a cover-up.
Like the citizens of Prague, they suffer so a few can make money.


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## mrypg9

gerrit said:


> Barcelona allows being naked anytime everywhere.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Try it I think you will find that the police will apprehend you and cart you off for psychiatric examination.
> That's what happens in towns along the Costas.


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## Jewel003

, I worked in the hospitality and tourism business for a long time, so came into contact with tourists almost daily. As an immigrant (which you phrased so nicely as I think the word expat is meant for people who don't want to integrate in the host country) in each and every country I have lived in, whether that was in liberal western Europe (eg. the netherlands has a very liberal standard when it comes to dresscode, freedom to do as one chooses etc), to France where babies suck milk from the mothers breast in public (for me that is a put off from my dinner, but to each his/her own) to living in Malaysia, where the main population is muslim, and it is considered inappropriate to kiss in public, to many other countries/continents I have lived/worked in, I have always respected the ways of that particular country. 

What I mean by that is that due to the attitude/behavior of the LOCAL population, and what was WIDELY accepted, I adapted my behavior accordingly. IOW, it is the local population who 'lets' the tourists get away with the behavior. 

Try the behavior you describe in any town or city in the middle east or any other muslim/islam country and one will be escorted to the police station straight away, this has not happened in Salou. Salou (and other places known for their um... loose behavioral tourists) has thrived off of loosely behaved tourists for a long time, so I find it rather hypocritical to begin with handing out fines now for behavior that has been allowed for so long. 

And no, I don't agree that people should be vomiting, pissing etc all over town, I feel that is poor judgement from the person doing so, but to begin blowing one's horn about it NOW, after so many years ? That don't hold water.

I admire your set of values, and mean no disrespect to them at all, but I see it differently. It's like the people who buy/bought houses cheaply near an airport and now are complaining to the government about the noise and trying to force the government to close certain routes and times of flight......gimme a break!

When times are tougher, there are always people who will whinge and complain, instead of trying to find a positive solution they turn negative and think that if they complain long enough something positive will happen. Guarenteed something WILL happen but if it's a positive thing, I very much doubt.


QUOTE So...does it ever occur to you that maybe only 5% of the 'locals' make money out of all these half-naked tourists and the other 95% might just have to put up with the inconvenience and offence to their eyes?
I doubt very much if anyone ever asked the ordinary working people of Salou if they wanted drunken British chavs to piss and vomit all over their town.
But as you see it, they should just put up with it, yeah? Tough if they can't afford to move somewhere more pleasant.
After all, a few people -maybe British tour operators?? - are making money so that's OK.....????
I'm lucky enough to be living in an area where visitors manage to enjoy themselves with their clothes on and without pissing, vomiting and copulating in the streets. And were I a 'peeping Tom, I certainly wouldn't want to ogle fat, drunken, unsightly people.
And by the way....I'm an immigrant, not an 'expat'. So are we all.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with prurience and everything to do with consideration for other people.
In my set of values, that comes before making money.[/QUOTE]


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## xabiaxica

well said Jewel003!

I can remember going to Salou when I was in my early 20s - so it must have been in the early 80s - & although it wasn't a big place then

it was a haunt of Club 18-30 - anyone who remembers that company will know of its reputation


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## Pesky Wesky

Jewel003 said:


> , I worked in the hospitality and tourism business for a long time, so came into contact with tourists almost daily. As an immigrant (which you phrased so nicely as I think the word expat is meant for people who don't want to integrate in the host country) in each and every country I have lived in, whether that was in liberal western Europe (eg. the netherlands has a very liberal standard when it comes to dresscode, freedom to do as one chooses etc), to France where babies suck milk from the mothers breast in public (for me that is a put off from my dinner, but to each his/her own) to living in Malaysia, where the main population is muslim, and it is considered inappropriate to kiss in public, to many other countries/continents I have lived/worked in, I have always respected the ways of that particular country.
> 
> What I mean by that is that due to the attitude/behavior of the LOCAL population, and what was WIDELY accepted, I adapted my behavior accordingly. IOW, it is the local population who 'lets' the tourists get away with the behavior.
> 
> Try the behavior you describe in any town or city in the middle east or any other muslim/islam country and one will be escorted to the police station straight away, this has not happened in Salou. Salou (and other places known for their um... loose behavioral tourists) has thrived off of loosely behaved tourists for a long time, so I find it rather hypocritical to begin with handing out fines now for behavior that has been allowed for so long.
> 
> And no, I don't agree that people should be vomiting, pissing etc all over town, I feel that is poor judgement from the person doing so, but to begin blowing one's horn about it NOW, after so many years ? That don't hold water.
> 
> I admire your set of values, and mean no disrespect to them at all, but I see it differently. It's like the people who buy/bought houses cheaply near an airport and now are complaining to the government about the noise and trying to force the government to close certain routes and times of flight......gimme a break!
> 
> When times are tougher, there are always people who will whinge and complain, instead of trying to find a positive solution they turn negative and think that if they complain long enough something positive will happen. Guarenteed something WILL happen but if it's a positive thing, I very much doubt.



Quite a tirade!!
You can just never tell what people on this forum are going to get off on, can you!??!

There is no doubt that Salou, Benidorm, Ibiza and the like have made money off the back of low level British, German etc tourism, and obviously this type of customer has been encouraged. I would question, as some have before me, who has actually made a fortune from this as I suspect it's a few well placed business executives and not the town in general.
However, is it not possible to want a change, to see that this is not sustainable, to admit that this type of tourism is no longer wanted?? It's like saying you did this now you're doomed to live like this for the rest of your life.


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Quite a tirade!!
> You can just never tell what people on this forum are going to get off on, can you!??!
> 
> There is no doubt that Salou, Benidorm, Ibiza and the like have made money off the back of low level British, German etc tourism, and obviously this type of customer has been encouraged. I would question, as some have before me, who has actually made a fortune from this as I suspect it's a few well placed business executives and not the town in general.
> However, is it not possible to want a change, to see that this is not sustainable, to admit that this type of tourism is no longer wanted?? It's like saying you did this now you're doomed to live like this for the rest of your life.


Some countries/resorts have done just that. Turkey, Tunisia and I believe Mallorca have turned their backs on the low-rent crowd and are aiming at attracting a 'better class' of tourist. Fewer, well-heeled ,better behaved people bring in more money than catering to the masses.
And yes, I know money and manners don't go hand-in-hand but older, respectable 'middle-class' people with more money are less likely to misbehave publicly. I couldn't care less what they do in private.
I agree with jewel that people who buy cheap houses near airports can't complain about noise - and I extend that principle to people who bought 'cheap' houses in Spain or -to a lesser extent -gave money for off-plan purchases that failed to materialise. But we're not talking about chancers. We're talking about people who for what ever reason find themselves caught up in these dreadful places and as well as the actual annoyance of drunken tourists have to put up with the reputation of their town being lowered.
A good UK comparison is Newquay, where a few make loads of money by turning what was a quiet Cornish town into a magnet for drunken young chavs of all classes.


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## mrypg9

I admire your set of values, and mean no disrespect to them at all, but I see it differently. It's like the people who buy/bought houses cheaply near an airport and now are complaining to the government about the noise and trying to force the government to close certain routes and times of flight......gimme a break!
JEWEL003


But that's not a fair comparison, really. Those people chose to buy there. People who have lived in Salou for decades, way before mass tourism, and cannot or do not wish to move away can't be compared to people who bought as you describe.


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> Some countries/resorts have done just that. Turkey, Tunisia and I believe Mallorca have turned their backs on the low-rent crowd and are aiming at attracting a 'better class' of tourist. Fewer, well-heeled ,better behaved people bring in more money than catering to the masses.
> And yes, I know money and manners don't go hand-in-hand but older, respectable 'middle-class' people with more money are less likely to misbehave publicly.


Yes, and a "better class" of tourist, as we know, isn't necessarily the one who has more money, but is probably the one who isn't likely to use the streets to pee, vomit, do a moonie , conduct drug deals or have sex in the streets. And so now they have to go about attracting a different customer profile. However, they might want to think if they're going to be host to the university sports thing again. See post


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## Pesky Wesky

Pesky Wesky said:


> Yes, and a "better class" of tourist, as we know, isn't necessarily the one who has more money, but is probably the one who isn't likely to use the streets to pee, vomit, do a moonie , conduct drug deals or have sex in the streets. And so now they have to go about attracting a different customer profile. However, they might want to think if they're going to be host to the university sports thing again. See post 1 about Saloufest


***


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## mrypg9

I remember reading somewhere that the Guggenheim Musuem in Bilbao earns billions for Spain....


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> I remember reading somewhere that the Guggenheim Musuem in Bilbao earns billions for Spain....


The Guggenheim changed the face of Bilbao and the Basque country. There _*was*_ no tourism in Bilbao before the museum. The image of Bilbao was a dirty, steel driven, polluted place, unattractive place. They built the museum, did a bit of publicity and success!! " years previously they'd built the metro and after they put in a tram line that goes all along the Ría right by the Guggenheim. You never saw tourists in Bilbao before, but now you can hear English, French etc being spoken, there are a lot more hotels and a few cafés; even a couple of souvenir shops!! They advertise green Spain to focus on tourism in the north of Spain and also museum routes - Bilbao, Gijón, Madrid...Mind you, they've poured millions in there, a lot from EU grants I think, but they do everything with a lot of class and thinking about the attractiveness of the project and how it's going to fit in (except IMHO, the towers recently completed by a Japanese architect which are just another concrete mess)


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> The Guggenheim changed the face of Bilbao and the Basque country. There _*was*_ no tourism in Bilbao before the museum. The image of Bilbao was a dirty, steel driven, polluted place, unattractive place. They built the museum, did a bit of publicity and success!! " years previously they'd built the metro and after they put in a tram line that goes all along the Ría right by the Guggenheim. You never saw tourists in Bilbao before, but now you can hear English, French etc being spoken, there are a lot more hotels and a few cafés; even a couple of souvenir shops!! They advertise green Spain to focus on tourism in the north of Spain and also museum routes - Bilbao, Gijón, Madrid...Mind you, they've poured millions in there, a lot from EU grants I think, but they do everything with a lot of class and thinking about the attractiveness of the project and how it's going to fit in (except IMHO, the towers recently completed by a Japanese architect which are just another concrete mess)



Hope to make it there one day.
BTW, we have -temporarily - two dogs!! For further information, see my thread 'A Worthy Cause'.


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> Hope to make it there one day.
> BTW, we have -temporarily - two dogs!! For further information, see my thread 'A Worthy Cause'.


Let me know when you make the journey 'cos we could meet up in Madrid or Bilbao possibly


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> Let me know when you make the journey 'cos we could meet up in Madrid or Bilbao possibly


That would be great!! My son has said he will look after Azorito if we want to get away for a weekend so I could take him up on the offer. No way is Azorito going into kennels.


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## gerrit

If a bikini is semi-nudity, then what about the countless topless girls on the beaches? I never considered myself as prudish but also not as highly progressive compared to most people I know ; however, I am astonished when a bikini (a common sight on billboards, TV, magazines, ... including the most innocent ones watched by young kids as much as by adults) is now considered somewhat obscene. It covers all body parts that people usually wish to cover (and quite frankly, if one takes offense in a bare breast I can't help that the word "prudish" does come into mind when we talk about western Europe)

And yes, being naked is allowed in Barcelona, you won't be escorted to any shrink or police office. There's a very small group of people (like a bit of a subculture) who always and everywhere are naked, one of them is a very famous German guy (famous in the barrio and neighbouring districts of town I mean) whose body is full of tattoos and who's never seen dressed at all. Recently he walked along the promenade and passed two policemen on duty. They just said hello to each other with a friendly smile and then walked on. It's fully legal to be naked on the street in Barcelona.

I agree that some common sense has to be used respecting the local culture. But if you look around at the streets surrounding the beaches (but off the promenade, so residential/non-touristic areas) I see many bare-chested men and women whose bra is clearly visable. None of them are tourists, these are all locals! So why should a tourist feel guilty of what many locals are doing as well?

To be clear, this only refers to wearing a bikini or swimming shorts. Not to urinating against someone's house or making love in the streets (both which I have witnessed as well several times in Spain and also in other countries in Europe, and which I agree is disgusting)


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## mrypg9

gerrit said:


> If a bikini is semi-nudity, then what about the countless topless girls on the beaches?
> QUOTE]
> 
> They 're on the beach so if no-one objects they could be totally naked for all I care.
> My objection is solely to wearing beach clothes when not on the beach.
> Being naked in public isn't an offence per se in the UK but you'd be arrested, either for 'conduct likely to cause a breach of the peace' or 'making a lewd and oscene spectacle'.....in my case it would be the latter


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## jojo

mrypg9 said:


> They 're on the beach so if no-one objects they could be totally naked for all I care.
> My objection is solely to wearing beach clothes when not on the beach.
> Being naked in public isn't an offence per se in the UK but you'd be arrested, either for 'conduct likely to cause a breach of the peace' or 'making a lewd and oscene spectacle'.....in my case it would be the latter



I agree, I simply dont wanna see it and I dont wanna do it!! If people have great bodies, then keep em covered til a time that those who wish to appreciate them can. If people have horrendous bodies then keep em covered! Simple!! My mum had bowel cancer and had a colostomy bag dangling from her abdomen - I wouldnt want to see that on someone while doing my weekly shop!!

Putting on a big tee shirt or a sundress is hardly the chore of the century is it!

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

jojo said:


> I agree, I simply dont wanna see it and I dont wanna do it!! If people have great bodies, then keep em covered til a time that those who wish to appreciate them can. If people have horrendous bodies then keep em covered! Simple!!
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


I might have been worth looking at thirty years ago....


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## gerrit

It's not covering up that requires an efford, it's the FORCED covering that is the issue. Someone may feel like dressing a bit more revealingly just for the sake of the warm weather or for the sake of their own opinion of what is comfortable ; not everyone (regardless how they look like) wants to just cover up in front of anyone but their partner. It's not about you wanting to cover up (nobody stops you from that I think) but it's about someone else may NOT wanting to do so. Freedom of choice is the issue. Putting on any type of clothing is not exhausting or so, but it can be disturbing if forced to do so against your own will.

Besides, where do you draw the line? If today a bikini top is outlawed, will we outlaw short skirts the next day as well? Or t-shirts with certain words on it? Or tell people how their hair should be cut, and what colour of shoes are illegal?  The less the government interferes with personal liberties, the better. Most people have common sense enough and the majority of those should not be punished for a minority. Especially when, like here, many locals walk without shirt or with bra clearly visable themselves! 

PS: in Barcelona being naked is allowed anywhere, you cannot be arrested for it. An old woman once rang the police when 3 or 4 of the nudists stood on the streets in front of her window, the police friendly told her they were not breaching any laws and that they could not do anything against it. Some of the nude-go'ers have friendly relationships with the police, a colleague once photographed one of them waving to the police and the police friendly waving back and then continueing their route.


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## gerrit

ps II (editing doesn't work) : it does become indecent exposure and a legal offense when you engage in sexual acts in the streets (although it has been done without police interference before) or when you'd urinate or vomit on someone's property. It is legal to be naked as long as you're just walking around, the moment you'd do any obscene act it does become indecent exposure. Just walking around naked (including genitals uncovered) is fully legal in Barcelona. Not sure about other Spanish cities and provinces.


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## jojo

gerrit said:


> ps II (editing doesn't work) : it does become indecent exposure and a legal offense when you engage in sexual acts in the streets (although it has been done without police interference before) or when you'd urinate or vomit on someone's property. It is legal to be naked as long as you're just walking around, the moment you'd do any obscene act it does become indecent exposure. Just walking around naked (including genitals uncovered) is fully legal in Barcelona. Not sure about other Spanish cities and provinces.


So when will people complain about being FORCED to perform sexual acts in private???!! There has to be a line drawn and as the overwhelming majority do not want to parade their flabby flesh around and apart from the summer most want to be covered. The line is drawn and it is drawn by the majority!!

Jo xx


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## nigele2

jojo said:


> The line is drawn and it is drawn by the majority!!


But is the line not drawn by the bold and young? Or certainly broken by the bold and young  Throughout time the young bring in new ideas, they mature (the ideas and the young ) and we move on. 

The older generations resist, but are equally a little embarrassed that they raised the younger generation. 


Some ideas are good: Miniskirts of the 60s caused outrage but now are totally accepted.
Some ideas are bad and if people are sensible about it they die out: punks (well almost die out).
Some ideas are just ‘too soon’: accepting homosexuality in the 40s.

But are we not talking about method here? Gerrit on the one hand (and very courageous he has been being so out gunned ) is I believe arguing method and is not from what I have read being outrageous - he just accepts change for what it is but equally illustrates by example in his behaviour. On the other hand many are asking for respect of others, politeness and cleanliness; totally compatible and good stuff I think.

IMHO if you start issuing fines you have already lost the battle. If you start stating you make the rules because you are the majority – you also lose. What happened to education, polite pressure and persuasion, intelligent argument, the subtle approach? All the sort of stuff we get on here 99% of the time.

Seriously loved this thread


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## jojo

nigele2 said:


> But is the line not drawn by the bold and young? Or certainly broken by the bold and young  Throughout time the young bring in new ideas, they mature (the ideas and the young ) and we move on.
> 
> The older generations resist, but are equally a little embarrassed that they raised the younger generation.
> 
> 
> Some ideas are good: Miniskirts of the 60s caused outrage but now are totally accepted.
> Some ideas are bad and if people are sensible about it they die out: punks (well almost die out).
> Some ideas are just ‘too soon’: accepting homosexuality in the 40s.



But the younger generation rebel. Thats what they do, so you have to give them boundaries to rebel against! Yes the mini skirt caused a few raised eye brows in its time. But I doubt those who used to parade in them in the 60s would be quite so bold and wear them today!!!!! 

Jo xxx


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## Leper

I didn't read all the articles on this thread. But, I have just returned from Spain and heard ex-pats complaining that the Policia Local were imposing fines for ladies wearing bikinis only while driving. A further fine was imposed if they were found to be wearing flip-flops.

Now the interesting bit:- It is believed that the Policia Local are self-funded i.e they don't fine people they will have reduced numbers.


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## mrypg9

Freedom of choice is the issue.

Gerrit QUOTE

But there cannot be complete freedom of choice. As children grow up, they learn that they cannot have their own way all the time. Freedom of choice could be another term for egocentricism. Even my dog can't do as he likes.
Imo one of the problems of our present age is that there are too few taboos. Children grow up looking for some example, some guide to a good life and see only a society where everyone does what they want when they want it regardless of other people's feelings. We need more restraint not more freedom. When I worked in education I felt so sorry for children whose parents allowed them complete freedom. 
This can so easily lead to a search for certainty in the wrong places. People turn to extremes because they are looking for a set of rules. They become religious fanatics, Fascists or Communists.
Much better to teach children that there are rules and yes some of them are arbitrary and many quite silly but we observe them because the majority of us are happy to live in an ordered society and in my case one where I don't get piut off my dinner by having unknown genitalia of either gender forced upon my view.


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## nigele2

jojo said:


> But the younger generation rebel. Thats what they do, so you have to give them boundaries to rebel against! Yes the mini skirt caused a few raised eye brows in its time. But I doubt those who used to parade in them in the 60s would be quite so bold and wear them today!!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Very ageist Jo - Dolly Parton does  

You give them boundaries through education, showing them respect, love and example - my point exactly ( OK at times you might want to knock seven ....... but you don't cause you know it doesn't work )


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## nigele2

mrypg9 said:


> They become religious fanatics, Fascists or Communists.


Naughty, naughty Mary - but I agree with most of what you said


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## nigele2

Leper said:


> I didn't read all the articles on this thread. But, I have just returned from Spain and heard ex-pats complaining that the Policia Local were imposing fines for ladies wearing bikinis only while driving. A further fine was imposed if they were found to be wearing flip-flops.
> 
> Now the interesting bit:- It is believed that the Policia Local are self-funded i.e they don't fine people they will have reduced numbers.


Interesting that driving in flip flops can be very dangerous. But in a bikini??? Perhaps dangerous for the guy pulling up alongside and having an infarto


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## jojo

nigele2 said:


> Interesting that driving in flip flops can be very dangerous. But in a bikini??? Perhaps dangerous for the guy pulling up alongside and having an infarto



He certainly would if he pulled up next to me and my flab! As for flip flops, yes they are dangerous. I always take mine off and drive barefooted, altho I've heard thats supposed to be as bad, altho I find it better than normal shoes

Jo xxx


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## mrypg9

nigele2 said:


> Naughty, naughty Mary - but I agree with most of what you said


I think in many cases that's sadly true. People don't like too much freedom. What is needed is education so that people can make informed choices.
One other thought.....doesn't freedom of choice mean that the wishes of the powerful will always win over the choices of those who are poorer, weaker, older?


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## jmthomas

These things need to be applied sensibly and to me it depends how close you are to the beach. If within a block or two then I can't see why anyone should object to people dressed for the beach in the streets, in supermarkets that is a different thing. In restaurants - well if you are in one without linen tablecloths along the frontline or in a chiringuito I don't think you can really complain.

May be they are just trying to clean up the local image? is it damaging tourism more to hand out fines or just to continue as is?


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## mrypg9

jmthomas said:


> These things need to be applied sensibly and to me it depends how close you are to the beach. If within a block or two then I can't see why anyone should object to people dressed for the beach in the streets, in supermarkets that is a different thing. In restaurants - well if you are in one without linen tablecloths along the frontline or in a chiringuito I don't think you can really complain.
> 
> May be they are just trying to clean up the local image? is it damaging tourism more to hand out fines or just to continue as is?


Depends if they want to continue attracting that class of tourist.
Being undressed in any kind of bar or restaurant unless it is directly on the beach is inappropriate imo. The clientele will not be restricted to people from the beach.


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## dunmovin

*okay... time on this*

if this doen't put an end to this debate.... nothing will

(with Thanks to Baldilocks for providing the pics)


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## mrypg9

I suspect those photos are from somewhere in the U.S.
But similar sights can no doubt be seen in Salou, Skegness, St.Tropez...


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## Veronica

mrypg9 said:


> I suspect those photos are from somewhere in the U.S.
> But similar sights can no doubt be seen in Salou, Skegness, St.Tropez...


They are from Walmart and in fact they are tame compared to some I have seen.
Lets just say I won't be in a hurry to go into a Walmart store when I go over to the USA for a holiday later this year.


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## xabiaxica

mrypg9 said:


> I suspect those photos are from somewhere in the U.S.
> But similar sights can no doubt be seen in Salou, Skegness, St.Tropez...


they are apparently all taken in Walmart

there's a website

it should come with a warning!!


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