# Reality Check on Unemployment



## Turco1 (Aug 18, 2014)

Hi Everyone! My friend is moving to Barcelona from USA this upcoming fall in hopes of finding a job as a chef. He understands the unemployment rate but I fear that he hasn't grasped the extremity of it. He has a Croatian passport but Croatia is in a transitory phase right now, which means they will still need a work visa after 3 months. My friend claims that a lot of jobs in the restaurant industry is done via black market anyway. I did recently read that the unemployment rate dropped a little but wonder if it has made quite an effect to those unemployed. Is the situation in Barcelona just as bad as other parts of Spain or is it better? Also, can people get caught easily for working illegally?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thank you in advance!


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

The reality check is that there are 6million fluent Spanish speakers ahead of your friend in the queue for any job, nearly 30% of the population and 60% of the under 26 age group. 

I'm not sure if Croatians need a visa,, but even if they don't they still have to prove income and healthcare provision to qualify for residence, and you can't do that with an illegal job. And yes, the crisis, has led to a tightening up on illegal workers/ employers.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

brocher said:


> The reality check is that there are 6million fluent Spanish speakers ahead of your friend in the queue for any job, nearly 30% of the population and 60% of the under 26 age group.
> 
> I'm not sure if Croatians need a visa,, but even if they don't they still have to prove income and healthcare provision to qualify for residence, and you can't do that with an illegal job. And yes, the crisis, has led to a tightening up on illegal workers/ employers.


The problem isn't just the fact he'll be working illegally, but WHEN (the authority's now check) he's caught, the employer will face prosecution. Therefore if they do risk it and employ on the black, they would only use family or friends. All that of course, if the work is there in the first place. When the summer season ends, most places lay staff off.

Not a good plan at all. No healthcare, no contract, so unable to become a resident.....

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

On another thread one poster talked about the importance of thinking about *why* you want to come to a place and I added to that *how*.
Probably people want to come to Spain because they think their life is going to be better in some way. How are you going to achieve that? Well, I doubt that it's by working illegally in a restaurant job.
You friend is probably right that many restauarant jobs are paid under the table. I have a Ukranian friend (quite well known on the forum!) university educated, speaks 3 languages fluently plus some English, has experience in many fields. She's currently working in a bar for 3 euros an hour undeclared wages. She's here legally.
Is that what your friend wants, those kind of wages, plus the insecurity of being here illegally with no health coverage? It may not work out like that, but it could.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Yes, Barcelona (or Cataluña) is less badly hit than other parts of Spain - 14% compared to the national average of around 25%, and over 30% in the south.

Croatia became a full member of the EU in 2013 so I don't think a visa would be needed.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Yes, Barcelona (or Cataluña) is less badly hit than other parts of Spain - 14% compared to the national average of around 25%, and over 30% in the south.
> 
> Croatia became a full member of the EU in 2013 so I don't think a visa would be needed.


Croatians still need a work permit EU - Work permits and labour market restrictions in some EU countries -Your Europe


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

One of my (Spanish) wife's cousins has just got an apprenticeship as a chef with a hotel/restaurante in central Madrid. This was after doing quite an expensive course that is difficult to get on (I suspect he only got on it through "enchufe"). Apparently most of the people on the course were (ex) lawyers, company directors, etc trying to retrain. So from this little anecdote it seems that not only are lots of people unemplyed and seeking work, but many are targeting the restaurante/catering/tourist industry, making it even more competitive.


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## Turco1 (Aug 18, 2014)

Update:

Hi everyone! Thought I should update this thread with my friends situation. He moved to Spain on October 1 and like many of you said- it wouldn't be easy for him to find a legal job. He got lucky and got a job offer at a restaurant but wasn't able to pursue it because he was denied the work visa with his Croatian passport. He now sees that it won't be easy to work in Spain, so he just borrowed money from his brother to buy a cafe. I tried to convince him out of this but it has gotten to the point where I think he just really needs to go through things to see if it was the right move or not.

Thank you everyone who commented previously and have a great day!


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## incastone (Nov 7, 2014)

The restaurant business is actually a fairly safe bet under certain circumstances.
It's no secret to anybody (at least not in Andalucia), that the phrase 'restaurant' doesn't really carry much weight in terms of perceived quality.
Everyone churns out what is essentially the same slop, with some doing it marginally better than others. 
There are few exceptions.

I've been in the hospitality industry for 16 out of the last 20 years, in 5 different countries, and the fact of the matter is that the people that could afford to go out regularly and eat well (and by that I mean quality, not quantity!), still can and do.

I worked as a Maître d' at a sushi restaurant in Copenhagen throughout '08 and '09 and a normal take was £30,000 per night at the weekends. Ok, so Scandinavia as a whole was less exposed to the sub-prime crash than the UK for example, but most governments used it as an excuse to cut back on public spending whether they actually needed to or not.

Likewise running a hotel in Courchevel for the '10/'11 ski season (British holidaymakers) - no shortage of customers in the Alps - there was a dip that year in Courchevel itself but only because the snow conditions were crap.

The crisis has really only affected lower income groups, and as a rule they would be eating at Maccy D's, KFC etc anyway.
But good restaurants will always be on the lookout for talented staff because the nature of the industry means that turnover rates are higher than average.
Turning up in a foreign country and being able to cook in a commercial environment is one of the best advantages you could possibly have, especially as kitchen staff tend to be multi-national which means you can get away with not speaking the local language (to begin with).

Restaurateurs know that consistency is everything, therefore their livelihood rests on having dependable staff that can meet the output requirements in terms of volume and quality.

If you are someone that can meet those requirements, then you have a far better chance of gaining employment than most others, and the experience of the friend of the OP is an example of this - too bad he didn't have an EU passport.


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## GuyverII (Oct 27, 2014)

incastone said:


> Everyone churns out what is essentially the same slop, with some doing it marginally better than others.


You lost me with this sentence. There is a SUBSTANTIAL difference between VIPS over at Nervion and Eslava in Sevilla, among a million other comparisons.


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## incastone (Nov 7, 2014)

Sevilla is the capital of Andalucia, so there should be a difference. I've only spent a week in Sevilla (during Semana Santa this year) and there was no end of great eateries.

But I should have clarified that I'm not talking about major cities, which will of course have a far higher proportion of good venues than anywhere else.
I've eaten great food in Cadiz, Jerez, Sevilla, Malaga, Granada, Alicante, Barcelona etc, it's all the places in-between the cities that I'm talking about really.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not slating Spanish food, I love it - when it's done right. 

I've been lucky to have seen a lot of Andalucia over the last year and a half from doing volunteer projects, but I've been surprised at how low the standards have been in general.

I've been _pleasantly_ surprised a few times, but not enough considering the quality of the produce that's available (in my opinion/experience so far).


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## incastone (Nov 7, 2014)

brocher said:


> The reality check is that there are 6million fluent Spanish speakers ahead of your friend in the queue for any job, nearly 30% of the population and 60% of the under 26 age group.


Not if they can't cook to the required standard, there aren't!

It's like saying that a bilingual property lawyer coming to Spain hasn't got a chance because of the unemployment rate.
If the unemployed are not qualified to do the jobs that are available, it doesn't matter how close to 'the front of the queue' they are, they still won't get those jobs.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Turco1 said:


> Update:
> 
> Hi everyone! Thought I should update this thread with my friends situation. He moved to Spain on October 1 and like many of you said- it wouldn't be easy for him to find a legal job. He got lucky and got a job offer at a restaurant but wasn't able to pursue it because he was denied the work visa with his Croatian passport. He now sees that it won't be easy to work in Spain, so he just borrowed money from his brother to buy a cafe. I tried to convince him out of this but it has gotten to the point where I think he just really needs to go through things to see if it was the right move or not.
> 
> Thank you everyone who commented previously and have a great day!


Good to get a follow up.
Do I understand that he's trying to open a café in Barcelona??
If so I'd say that he's jumping from the frying pan into the fat - and maybe big time.
Everbody and his cousin has tried to open a bar/ cafe now because of the crisis and I'm sorry to say a very large number have failed if not for money issues for paperwork problems. Still, you're probably right; he needs to do this and get it out of his system. Who knows, perhaps he'll come up smelling of roses?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

incastone said:


> The restaurant business is actually a fairly safe bet under certain circumstances.
> It's no secret to anybody (at least not in Andalucia), that the phrase 'restaurant' doesn't really carry much weight in terms of perceived quality.
> Everyone churns out what is essentially the same slop, with some doing it marginally better than others.
> There are few exceptions.
> ...





incastone said:


> Sevilla is the capital of Andalucia, so there should be a difference. I've only spent a week in Sevilla (during Semana Santa this year) and there was no end of great eateries.
> 
> But I should have clarified that I'm not talking about major cities, which will of course have a far higher proportion of good venues than anywhere else.
> I've eaten great food in Cadiz, Jerez, Sevilla, Malaga, Granada, Alicante, Barcelona etc, it's all the places in-between the cities that I'm talking about really.
> ...





incastone said:


> Not if they can't cook to the required standard, there aren't!
> 
> It's like saying that a bilingual property lawyer coming to Spain hasn't got a chance because of the unemployment rate.
> A bilingual property lawyer doesn't have a chance, not only because of the unemployment rate, but also because he would need to get his qualifications recognised and that would involve some retraining - there are different laws here!


+++


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

incastone said:


> Sevilla is the capital of Andalucia, so there should be a difference. I've only spent a week in Sevilla (during Semana Santa this year) and there was no end of great eateries.
> 
> But I should have clarified that I'm not talking about major cities, which will of course have a far higher proportion of good venues than anywhere else.
> I've eaten great food in Cadiz, Jerez, Sevilla, Malaga, Granada, Alicante, Barcelona etc, it's all the places in-between the cities that I'm talking about really.
> ...


You should indeed have clarified. Your blanket statement about "slop" was dismissive and unhelpful.

I agree that the quality of cooking in many eating places outside the tourist areas is poor, by our standards. But they are producing what their customers want. If they didn't, they'd go out of business.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Good post.

When a person comes here and asks about prospects all they get is the latest % unemployment, remarks about being in the queue behind 7 million others, and (topically, in this case) a garnish of broad-based non-specific negativity.

In fact, low and semi-skilled people can and do get jobs. I know people in these categories who have done so. The skilled (for example, a commercial environment chef) certainly can, and do. As you said, pity about the visa situation (although the advice about that was spot on, it was predictable that he would end up in this situation).

I'm not saying that a UK plumber who doesn't speak Spanish would be wise to make the move. I am saying that people shouldn't be so fast to write everybody off.




incastone said:


> The restaurant business is actually a fairly safe bet under certain circumstances.
> It's no secret to anybody (at least not in Andalucia), that the phrase 'restaurant' doesn't really carry much weight in terms of perceived quality.
> Everyone churns out what is essentially the same slop, with some doing it marginally better than others.
> There are few exceptions.
> ...


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

incastone said:


> I've eaten great food in Cadiz, Jerez, Sevilla, Malaga, Granada, Alicante, Barcelona etc, it's all the places in-between the cities that I'm talking about really.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not slating Spanish food, I love it - when it's done right.


I've eaten bad food in most of the cities you mentioned.

There are good and bad restaurants around where I live in the UK and there are good and bad restaurants around where I live in Spain.

It's not surprising is it? It's what anybody would expect, surely.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

> =Horlics;5699706
> 
> When a person comes here and asks about prospects all they get is the latest % unemployment, remarks about being in the queue behind 7 million others, and (topically, in this case) a garnish of broad-based non-specific negativity.


Please be careful when you make remarks about negativity. Do you seriously think people post information about unemployment figures to be negative? Don't you think it might be because we'd like people to be informed about where they are hoping to come?
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/371025-why-do-we-bother.html


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Turco1 said:


> Update:
> 
> Hi everyone! Thought I should update this thread with my friends situation. He moved to Spain on October 1 and like many of you said- it wouldn't be easy for him to find a legal job. He got lucky and got a job offer at a restaurant but wasn't able to pursue it because he was denied the work visa with his Croatian passport. He now sees that it won't be easy to work in Spain, so he just borrowed money from his brother to buy a cafe. I tried to convince him out of this but it has gotten to the point where I think he just really needs to go through things to see if it was the right move or not.
> 
> Thank you everyone who commented previously and have a great day!


thanks for the update

unfortunately buying a business (unless he's investing half a million € in it) won't get him a visa either


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Pesky,

"Please be careful"

Don't be so condescending.

At the same time as mentioning negativity I referred to actual experience of seeing low skilled people secure employment. My post recognised that at times negativity might be appropriate (UK plumber) but at times we have to acknowledge that people can and do find work.

If you can't see the balance in that post then you go right ahead and keep telling everybody, all of the time, regardless of skills and circumstances, about the size of the queue.

That was my point Pesky.... just the need for some balance.




Pesky Wesky said:


> Please be careful when you make remarks about negativity. Do you seriously think people post information about unemployment figures to be negative? Don't you think it might be because we'd like people to be informed about where they are hoping to come?
> http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/371025-why-do-we-bother.html


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Horlics said:


> Pesky,
> 
> "Please be careful"
> 
> ...


Horlics,
being called condescending is a new one. I don't think anyone's called me that before!
At no time was I aiming to be condescending, merely informative, and I don't think I was . I also mention my personal experience in my posts which, I would ask you to note, and which unfortunately cannot be changed or undone. I know people in the hotel/ restaurant trade that are working crap conditions for crap pay, and that is that. I don't doubt that you know people who are working and in better conditions - one doesn't negate the other. My post about the negativity remarks did not refute your idea that low skilled jobs are available in your area
What I asked you to be careful about was saying that people on the forum make comments of


> broad-based non-specific negativity


. People tend to take offence at that. and I think for good reason. Why would anyone exaggarate the economic recession in Spain? What would anyone gain from that?
I agree there's a need for balance, but there's also a need for up to date information. Here's a link to EURES the European Jobs network. 
https://ec.europa.eu/eures/main.jsp?catId=452&lmi=Y&acro=lmi&lang=en&recordLang=en&parentId=&countryId=ES®ionId=ES0&nuts2Code=%20&nuts3Code=null&mode=shortages®ionName=Andaluc%C3%ADa
Click on Andalucia and you'll find


> there are currently no sectors where labour is required, owing to the economic crisis and the high unemployment rates.


Would you like to write to them and tell them off for being "negative"???


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

I found 109 job offers for Andalucia though.
https://ec.europa.eu/eures/main.jsp...hengineresults=yes&countryId=ES&regionId=RB61


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Pazcat said:


> I found 109 job offers for Andalucia though.
> https://ec.europa.eu/eures/main.jsp...hengineresults=yes&countryId=ES&regionId=RB61


Sounds good doesn't it?
Did you look at any of them? On the first page I didn't see any more recent than April 2014 and some are from 2013. One is for 6 hours a day and another is for 650€ - 800€ for a 40 hour week... Is that being negative, or is that looking at the info given in a real light?

Jobs advertised on that site in Andalucia in the last month here. There are four (4)
https://ec.europa.eu/eures/main.jsp...arentCategory=482&pageCode=find_a_job&lang=en


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Horlics said:


> Good post.
> 
> When a person comes here and asks about prospects all they get is the latest % unemployment, remarks about being in the queue behind 7 million others, and (topically, in this case) a garnish of broad-based non-specific negativity.
> 
> ...



Due to the way that the benefit system works in Spain and that there is without a doubt an employment problem, I often question whether its right for potential expats to take jobs from possibly desperate people already in Spain??? 

That said, I guess its the EU and there are a good few Spanish people in my area of the UK who have come here desperately looking for work

Jo xxx


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Sounds good doesn't it?
> Did you look at any of them? On the first page I didn't see any more recent than April 2014 and some are from 2013. One is for 6 hours a day and another is for 650€ - 800€ for a 40 hour week... Is that being negative, or is that looking at the info given in a real light?
> 
> Jobs advertised on that site in Andalucia in the last month here. There are four (4)
> https://ec.europa.eu/eures/main.jsp...arentCategory=482&pageCode=find_a_job&lang=en


A depressing postscript to your signature line: Youth unemployment in Cádiz province is now *69.2%*.

There is no shortage of work for native English and German speakers who can teach them a language that might give them a ticket out of here. But otherwise - forget it.

Out of the job market at 23 - Spain's NiNi generation | In English | EL PAÏS


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> A depressing postscript to your signature line: Youth unemployment in Cádiz province is now *69.2%*.http://elpais.com/elpais/2014/11/07/inenglish/1415352012_379056.html


Unbelievable.
Inhuman.
Unsustainable.
Those poor kids. It's going to mark them for life and in much more than economic terms.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> A depressing postscript to your signature line: Youth unemployment in Cádiz province is now *69.2%*.
> 
> There is no shortage of work for native English and German speakers who can teach them a language that might give them a ticket out of here. But otherwise - forget it.
> 
> Out of the job market at 23 - Spain's NiNi generation | In English | EL PAÏS


What I find fascinating is that all of the professionals cited made some mention of not letting the kids just give up and do nothing. This is probably going to get me flamed to high heavens, but I think a lot more tough love is needed in some homes. I was told to pack my bags and look abroad for work since there was little work to be had at home for new grads. 

I'm conflicted..


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

elenetxu said:


> What I find fascinating is that all of the professionals cited made some mention of not letting the kids just give up and do nothing. This is probably going to get me flamed to high heavens, but I think a lot more tough love is needed in some homes. I was told to pack my bags and look abroad for work since there was little work to be had at home for new grads.
> 
> I'm conflicted..


I have to agree. I know a lot of people here who wouldn't consider moving to another city to work, never mind another province or country. And it doesn't only apply to new grads. My 45 year old sister-in-law (Spanish divorced mom of 2) has been unemployed for 2.5 years. She's a massage therapist and fitness instructor. She's said numerous times that if she only lived on the coast she'd have a job because jobs in her line of work pop up at the hotels. So I'm thinking, WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR??? But she wouldn't dream of leaving her beloved Sevilla. She'd rather stay here and live on her 450€ handout. * I. DON'T. GET. IT!!!*


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

elenetxu said:


> What I find fascinating is that all of the professionals cited made some mention of not letting the kids just give up and do nothing. This is probably going to get me flamed to high heavens, but I think a lot more tough love is needed in some homes. I was told to pack my bags and look abroad for work since there was little work to be had at home for new grads.
> 
> I'm conflicted..





kalohi said:


> I have to agree. I know a lot of people here who wouldn't consider moving to another city to work, never mind another province or country. And it doesn't only apply to new grads. My 45 year old sister-in-law (Spanish divorced mom of 2) has been unemployed for 2.5 years. She's a massage therapist and fitness instructor. She's said numerous times that if she only lived on the coast she'd have a job because jobs in her line of work pop up at the hotels. So I'm thinking, WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR??? But she wouldn't dream of leaving her beloved Sevilla. She'd rather stay here and live on her 450€ handout. * I. DON'T. GET. IT!!!*


I think you're both right to a certain extent
"Tough love" was certainly needed in a lot of homes, but I can't help feeling it's a bit late now, especially for young unqualified people in Spain. The days of get on yer bike (elenetxu look at this Norman Tebbit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia1979 government) have long gone. 
And also it would appear are gone the days when you could go to Germany and pick up a job. These articles from 2013 tell us 2 out of every 3 Spaniards who go there come back
Dos de cada tres espaÃ±oles que emigran a Alemania se vuelven...

Solo un tercio de los espaÃ±oles que emigran a Alemania logran establecerse, segÃºn la OCDE - RTVE.es

However, I am also familiar with the scenario that kalohi describes - people who just won't move out of their little area. I don't get it either!

Interesting article here about young people in Spain and their problems in finding work. I agree with about half of it. What do others think??
Los seis problemas que afrontan los j?venes espa?oles para encontrar empleo,Datos macroecon?micos, econom?a y pol?tica - Expansi?n.com


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## incastone (Nov 7, 2014)

The unemployment statistics are horrifying. I mean, really frightening.

I speak Danish and was working as a linguistic software tester in Warsaw before I came over here to see some of Spain and decide if I wanted to make a go of it here (I´d had a taste working in the Canary Islands as a chef back in 2000).
I was working with a lot of Spanish in Warsaw - people in their mid to late twenties that took jobs there - and they could get those because they spoke good English (it was an American company).

But as some people here have mentioned, that requires relocation, and it seems that this is not something many young Spaniards want to do (even if their English is up to scratch, which it often isn´t).

I knew about the unemployment rates before I got here, and a lot of people said I was mad - they were probably right.
But over last winter and this, I could have had a lot of work harvesting olives and pruning almond trees etc, because in the campo, which is where I´ve spent nearly all my time, they often have to bring in immigrant workers from Morocco to do those jobs.
Why? Because the unemployed Spanish youngsters aren´t interested in doing it.
Even though the pay is relatively poor (40-50 euro per day), it´s still double what they would get from the dole.

I haven´t had to seriously consider full time work yet as I´ve had money to live on while I was here, and have been working part time on a volunteer/workaway basis so I could see the country properly and not have to pay for digs or food.

But when I have needed extra cash, I´ve done some painting work, interior and exterior, and the reason I could get that isn´t because expats don´t want to hire Spaniards, it´s because the quality of the work is not always up to scratch, so a lot of locals are shooting themselves in the foot by not being professional or competent enough.

I´m not here to judge, I´ve been living permanently abroad since I was 24, and I´m all about integration and respect. I all ready speak better Spanish after a year and a half than a lot of the expats I´ve met that have been here for years, but then I´ve only ever gone to Brit enclaves on day trips, and then only to Málaga and Alicante which are marginal - Places like Benidorm and Benalmádena are not really my cup of tea, but horses for courses and all that.

So this isn´t about having a go at the Spanish. I love the Spanish, their sense of humour and the way they see life, the food (sometimes ), but there are real problems here, cultural issues, and by that I mean that graft (corruption, not hard work) is rife and embedded so deeply into the national psyche, especially within the public sector, that it´s kicking the economy when it´s all ready down, and the youth are getting hit worst of all.
It´s a crying shame, and a serious overhaul is needed if they are going to get to the root of this problem, if they ever do.

I don´t want to think that I might be taking work away from equally qualified Spaniards, it wouldn´t sit right, but if someone wants to employ me because the Spaniards in the same area can´t or won´t do the job properly or at all, then I will be diving right in, and the same should go for any country, no matter how good or bad the economy is.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

incastone said:


> I knew about the unemployment rates before I got here, and a lot of people said I was mad - they were probably right.
> But over last winter and this, I could have had a lot of work harvesting olives and pruning almond trees etc, because in the campo, which is where I´ve spent nearly all my time, they often have to bring in immigrant workers from Morocco to do those jobs.
> Why? Because the unemployed Spanish youngsters aren´t interested in doing it.
> Even though the pay is relatively poor (40-50 euro per day), it´s still double what they would get from the dole.
> ...


+++


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## incastone (Nov 7, 2014)

Good point about building work in general, I could only really comment on the painting side as I have a lot of experience with it, but yes I´ve heard a lot of grumbling about British ´builders´ doing work over here for their compatriots with less than stellar results, for the reasons you mentioned.

It´s foolish to try and generalise with these things (or anything, ever, tbh) as someone will always have had the opposite experience, especially from a pool of people as large as the British community in Spain, let alone any other nationalities.

I just read that 6 million (6 million!!) Brits are planning to retire abroad over the next few years, with over 1 and a half million of those coming to Spain. 
6 million is almost 10% of the population. Incredible really. That´s a bit off-topic but I was really surprised by those numbers. 

Maybe I shouldn´t be.
I´ve lived abroad for most of my adult life and I´ve never had any desire to go back to live in the UK. I feel like a privileged tourist when I visit, it´s actually kind of nice that way!


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Sounds good doesn't it?
> Did you look at any of them? On the first page I didn't see any more recent than April 2014 and some are from 2013. One is for 6 hours a day and another is for 650€ - 800€ for a 40 hour week... Is that being negative, or is that looking at the info given in a real light?
> 
> Jobs advertised on that site in Andalucia in the last month here. There are four (4)
> https://ec.europa.eu/eures/main.jsp...arentCategory=482&pageCode=find_a_job&lang=en


Sounds better than nothing which is what a large portion have at the moment.
I'm not arguing that finding a job is easy, far from it. Simply that the same link you provided also linked to 109 jobs available.

To be fair 650 a week is great.


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## incastone (Nov 7, 2014)

Pazcat said:


> Sounds better than nothing which is what a large portion have at the moment.


Dangerous argument. I know it sounds extreme, but it´s a fine line between accepting that you can´t have what you feel you´re worth, and being completely debased as a human being.
At which point is the money, however little, worth more than someone´s integrity?
This is a tough choice that a lot of people are having to make and it´s not pretty.



Pazcat said:


> To be fair 650 a week is great.


I think you´ll find that´s per month, which is what prompted my comment above.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

incastone said:


> Dangerous argument. I know it sounds extreme, but it´s a fine line between accepting that you can´t have what you feel you´re worth, and being completely debased as a human being.
> At which point is the money, however little, worth more than someone´s integrity?
> This is a tough choice that a lot of people are having to make and it´s not pretty.
> 
> ...


One of the biggest issues I see is the autonomo payments or to be more accurate how many people are paying them.
I wonder how many builders, gardeners, painters, android box dealers, etc.. are paying their dues.
Heck, from what I can tell(and I would like to know for sure) I can't even start up a hobby business without having to pay more for tax than income.


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## incastone (Nov 7, 2014)

The situation is not good for entrepreneurs/self-employed people, and that does need to be addressed.
But you can avoid having to pay social security if you pay for your own private health insurance (80 euro per month) and just file a tax return on your income.
You won´t get unemployment benefits of course but if you have a stable enough income and it seems a risk worth taking, it seems like a sound option, at least until your revenue makes paying into the system worth it again.
Doing it that way also assuages any guilt from not declaring all income, because you´re not entitled to any state benefits anyway.

In this economic situation, and with Spain´s low personal allowance (a good chunk less than half that of the UK, which currently stands at 10 Grand per year), I think people have to work the system when the system is so obviously working against them when they try to do everything legitimately.

It costs 15 quid to set up a private limited company in the UK, can be done online, same day and no capital investment into the company is required.
You have a generous personal allowance if you choose to pay yourself a salary, and if you pay yourself just under 5 Grand a year your NI contributions are covered and you can pay yourself up to about another 30 Grand in dividends before you get taxed on them. 

This is how you structure things when you want to encourage people to do things legitimately and boost the economy.
The Spanish have a lot to learn from this system, which is the most flexible and generous in Europe.
There are other things the Spanish do much better of course, like not taxing pensions for one (theirs are about double the UK state pension because of this and should be a no-brainer - pensions are deferred pay and have all ready been taxed).

But however much I want to be positive about Spain, this is one area that is one big bad joke. People in this current economic environment need to be able to start and run small businesses without all the ridiculous bureaucracy (designed for corruption from the ground up) and miserly taxation which is short-sighted and damaging to the economy.

Someone needs to pull their head out of their backside and start reforming the way entrepreneurs are handled here.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Pazcat said:


> Sounds better than nothing which is what a large portion have at the moment.
> I'm not arguing that finding a job is easy, far from it. Simply that the same link you provided also linked to 109 jobs available.
> 
> To be fair 650 a week is great.


Hi Pazcat,
I don't think you read the info on the EURES page or in my post correctly. It's going to make it sound like I'm determined to give bad news, but I'd just like you and others to understand what is really happening.
I provided a link to EURES. You did a search using that link which brought up 109 jobs. 
https://ec.europa.eu/eures/main.jsp?acro=job&catId=482
That's because in the search criteria you put in Andalucia, all jobs. As I said before, look at those jobs. The first one is for a Finnish speaker and the date is August 2013. 
Second one, salary looks ok, also for 2013, and so on until number 8. Bingo! 2014, May 2014.It's for a site manager. It's written in Spanish. I guess they want a Spanish speaker. At number 6 we passed a golden oppoertunity of a 40 hour week for 650 - 800€ a week etc etc. But the main thing is that these jobs, good or bad are NOT the current vacancies. They are the ones that are in their data base

I did a search for Andalucia, jobs in the last month, and* as I said before *there are FOUR, NOT 109.
https://ec.europa.eu/eures/main.jsp?..._a_job&lang=en
I'm not trying to be petty, but if you say there are 109 or 650 a week that's just not true! Andalucia's unemployment situation would be solved within a year if that was the case!


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Interesting article here about young people in Spain and their problems in finding work. I agree with about half of it. What do others think??
> Los seis problemas que afrontan los j?venes espa?oles para encontrar empleo,Datos macroecon?micos, econom?a y pol?tica - Expansi?n.com


I agree with all of it except for the first point which says that young people can't afford to go to univeristy. While I do think that this is increasingly true, I don't think that has anything to do with the unemployment rate. It's not as if the universities are empty and not churning out graduates. In fact, at least in Andalucia the universities are packed, and getting into a program is more cut-throat than ever precisely because so many of those unemployed young people are spending their time getting degree after degree.

As for vo-tech courses (ciclos de formacion profesional), I totally agree that they are under rated. My son did one and in environmental health, and about half the people from his class ended up getting a job once they finished - quite a feat! My son didn't because he went on to university to continue his studies, but he knows he'll have a foot up once he finishes his degree.

So what other points didn't you agree with, Pesky?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

incastone said:


> The situation is not good for entrepreneurs/self-employed people, and that does need to be addressed.
> But you can avoid having to pay social security if you pay for your own private health insurance (80 euro per month) and just file a tax return on your income.
> You won´t get unemployment benefits of course but if you have a stable enough income and it seems a risk worth taking, it seems like a sound option, at least until your revenue makes paying into the system worth it again.
> Doing it that way also assuages any guilt from not declaring all income, because you´re not entitled to any state benefits anyway.
> ...


As a self employed worker here for more than 10 years, maybe 15, I can't remember when I started, I can say it's one of the most frustrating experiences I've had, inflexible, demotivating and unnecessarily difficult.
I couldn't do what you suggest as the companies where I work ask for proof of payment of social security. This requirement is something that's really come in in the last 3 years I'd say, so perhaps that's a reflection on companies being checked up on more, and making sure they are employing legal workers. I hope so.
The pathetic attempt by the government of lowering payments that the self employed have to make for the first few months does not help in the long run. There is lots of news about how many people are setting up their own businesses, but little about how many close within the year, and they are many!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

kalohi said:


> I agree with all of it except for the first point which says that young people can't afford to go to univeristy. While I do think that this is increasingly true, I don't think that has anything to do with the unemployment rate. It's not as if the universities are empty and not churning out graduates. In fact, at least in Andalucia the universities are packed, and getting into a program is more cut-throat than ever precisely because so many of those unemployed young people are spending their time getting degree after degree.
> 
> As for vo-tech courses (ciclos de formacion profesional), I totally agree that they are under rated. My son did one and in environmental health, and about half the people from his class ended up getting a job once they finished - quite a feat! My son didn't because he went on to university to continue his studies, but he knows he'll have a foot up once he finishes his degree.
> 
> So what other points didn't you agree with, Pesky?


Actually, no you're right, I do agree with the article except the first one about uni. I think the problem with uni is more that, as you say, they are packed. Packed with people who don't really want to be there, but who prefer being there than working or on an FP course.
My husband is an FP teacher, Business Administration, and the stories he brings home...!! For example this year, and I think last year everything was so badly organised that the course had supposedly started before registration for the courses had finished, so he was teaching to a half empty room. This is the support teachers get from the authorities. And this is only one incident in a litany of back stabbing moves from the education authorities. Last year, not sure about this year, there was a TV campaign from the government of Spain about FP courses - after the courses had begun and long after the registration dates!! They seem to do everything possible to make FP not work.
I'm not sure about PYME's not wanting graduates. Maybe they don't want graduates, but they don't want anyone 40++ either. From what I see when I go into companies they want anyone under 35, after that you're yesterday's jam (IT Crowd).
There's definitly a lack of support for finding your way around the job market, for the training that you have acess to etc. My daughter was given minimal job orientation at school.


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## GuyverII (Oct 27, 2014)

Lots of good discussion here; since we've moved over to the education side of things I've seen my share of puzzling endeavors, and maybe more as to the "why" Spaniards don't work abroad. The GAPING hole in the Spanish system is languages. A political decision was made here to push "Valenciano" (Occitan) on the kids so now they have to sit through seven hours a week, with the rest in Spanish and only a two in English. Valenciano is only useful if you are going to be a government worker in the Valencian Community, outside of that it is worthless. The politicians are truly doing a disservice to these Spanish kids by not teaching more English/French/Chinese etc.

We have a group of Valencian parents that are so pro-Valenciano they can't see the benefits to the kids picking up English or German. I've been vocal about it and have had parents tell me that Valenciano is just as important as English and Chinese. Ok, I can understand that from a linguistic and cultural perspective, but not in terms of global importance. Most of Europe is cleaning our clocks in terms of learning multiple languages.

Corruption: I was shocked that my daughter's friends and parents were "impressed" and "proud" of how "cool" Francisco Nicolás Gómez Iglesias is due to his ability to falsify documents and lying about who he was. Almost overwhelmingly positive comments from them. Not exactly the same way I explained it to my 6 year old.


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## Pazcat (Mar 24, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Hi Pazcat,
> I don't think you read the info on the EURES page or in my post correctly. It's going to make it sound like I'm determined to give bad news, but I'd just like you and others to understand what is really happening.
> I provided a link to EURES. You did a search using that link which brought up 109 jobs.
> https://ec.europa.eu/eures/main.jsp?acro=job&catId=482
> ...


Well, like I said the link you gave has conflicting information. That was all. Just a passing comment.

As for what is contained in the link we can debate it all day but I'd rather not, I could provide more links with pages of jobs with probably as dubious if not more so listings that give an unrealistic picture of jobs in Spain but I wont.

Personally I think it's a moot point to a degree anyway for the majority of expats, yes generalising is never a great idea and we do see it from time to time on the forum but there wont be many expats looking to make the move to Spain looking at job listings anyway and I'm guessing if they have to then it's not the spectacular change of lifestyle they were hoping for.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

incastone said:


> Dangerous argument. I know it sounds extreme, but it´s a fine line between accepting that you can´t have what you feel you´re worth, and being completely debased as a human being.
> At which point is the money, however little, worth more than someone´s integrity?
> This is a tough choice that a lot of people are having to make and it´s not pretty.
> 
> ...


Not even.
If you do a search for the last month the results throw up 4 jobs


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

GuyverII said:


> Corruption: I was shocked that my daughter's friends and parents were "impressed" and "proud" of how "cool" Francisco Nicolás Gómez Iglesias is due to his ability to falsify documents and lying about who he was. Almost overwhelmingly positive comments from them. Not exactly the same way I explained it to my 6 year old.


What?????!!!
That is sad, sad, sad


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## GuyverII (Oct 27, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> What?????!!!
> That is sad, sad, sad


Seriously. Was a reality check for us, even though we've been here for years.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Pazcat said:


> I found 109 job offers for Andalucia though.
> https://ec.europa.eu/eures/main.jsp...hengineresults=yes&countryId=ES&regionId=RB61


I think the real problem with this type of site is that they are never kept up-to-date. So, many jobs that were advertised some time ago, and have now been filled, are still showing as vacancies.

Having just done the search for myself, there are only 4 jobs posted in the last month.

The web may well be showing 600+ new jobs coming on every month (although I only found 117 in the whole of Spain) but that isn't what was being discussed.

The site in question does the best it can with the data available. 


The reality is that there are VERY few jobs, even fewer offering a contract and even fewer again with anywhere near a sustainable salary.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Pazcat said:


> Sounds better than nothing which is what a large portion have at the moment.
> I'm not arguing that finding a job is easy, far from it. Simply that the same link you provided also linked to 109 jobs available.
> 
> To be fair 650 a week is great.


I suspect that was €650 a _month_ for a 40 hour week. Lots of people are prepared to take those low-paid jobs just to keep up their social security payments.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

GuyverII said:


> Lots of good discussion here; since we've moved over to the education side of things I've seen my share of puzzling endeavors, and maybe more as to the "why" Spaniards don't work abroad. The GAPING hole in the Spanish system is languages. A political decision was made here to push "Valenciano" (Occitan) on the kids so now they have to sit through seven hours a week, with the rest in Spanish and only a two in English. Valenciano is only useful if you are going to be a government worker in the Valencian Community, outside of that it is worthless. The politicians are truly doing a disservice to these Spanish kids by not teaching more English/French/Chinese etc.


Well, to be fair they are trying in Andalucia. Both the state schools in my village are now "bilingual" (i.e. they teach a certain number of hours a week in English) and the plan is to have this in 100% of schools in the region within five years. 

The problem is finding enough teachers with sufficiently good English to cover the classes - they need B2 level and have to pay for their own training and exams.


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## incastone (Nov 7, 2014)

The English teaching gig is always a good bet if you can stand the tedium of it.
I will have to bite the bullet and take the 20 hours a week that are available - stupid to turn down money.
In the area I'm moving to, there are plenty of non-native speakers without even a TEFL qualification that give English lessons (privately, via agencies/academies) and the going rate is 13 euro per hour.
Certainly not a figure to be sniffed at in these tough times.
I don't agree with non-native speakers giving English lessons as it goes unless they are perfectly fluent, including a broad knowledge of idioms etc, but point is, there are more hours available than there are people to teach them. The work is there.


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## incastone (Nov 7, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> What?????!!!
> That is sad, sad, sad


I had to look that guy up on Wikipedia after reading the post.

I never even knew there was a Coup d'Etat attempt!

Even more interesting was reading about the backstory re how the whole thing was likely to have been orchestrated by the King and his military confidants (without the knowledge of the key aggressors).

Makes for fascinating reading.


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## GuyverII (Oct 27, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> Well, to be fair they are trying in Andalucia. Both the state schools in my village are now "bilingual" (i.e. they teach a certain number of hours a week in English) and the plan is to have this in 100% of schools in the region within five years.
> 
> The problem is finding enough teachers with sufficiently good English to cover the classes - they need B2 level and have to pay for their own training and exams.


We found the foreign language instruction in Seville to be better than here in Valencia--but only marginally. With this push for Valenciano, it's tough to get hours in for any other language.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

They know it's of no importance globally and limited importance linguistically. Whether they admit it or not, they realise it's entirely about cultural identity. Crazy.




GuyverII said:


> I've been vocal about it and have had parents tell me that Valenciano is just as important as English and Chinese. Ok, I can understand that from a linguistic and cultural perspective, but not in terms of global importance.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

In what professions and with a need of which particular skills are there VERY few jobs? Or are we talking about everything?




snikpoh said:


> Having just done the search for myself, there are only 4 jobs posted in the last month.
> 
> The web may well be showing 600+ new jobs coming on every month (although I only found 117 in the whole of Spain) but that isn't what was being discussed.
> .....
> ...


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Hi Pesky,

Your personal experience is noted. I wanted to let you know that I certainly don't disregard it.

Although I talk about the low to mid skilled sector and mentioned hotel/restaurant work in particular, don't think that I don't know the wages are crap and the work is extremely demanding. I do realise that's the case, and I am not sure I would say that people I know have it any better. I wasn't going into that aspect of the work, I was merely saying that it is there for some people.



Pesky Wesky said:


> What I asked you to be careful about was saying that people on the forum make comments of . People tend to take offence at that. and I think for good reason.


I think you ought to avoid being offended on behalf of other people, let them raise it if they want to.



Pesky Wesky said:


> Why would anyone exaggarate the economic recession in Spain? What would anyone gain from that?.


To be clear, I don't think anybody is exaggerating the economic recession. I haven't said they are. What I said was that they use statements about the recession in a blanket fashion without considering the specifics. They do Pesky, I could provide quotes from several threads to prove it. I won't, because I would expect people to be offended that I am directly drawing them into this, and I don't actually want to offend anybody.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Horlics said:


> In what professions and with a need of which particular skills are there VERY few jobs? Or are we talking about everything?


When I searched their site I left all fields set to "all" apart from the area being Andalucia.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

OK. I just wondered because I went to indeed.es and keyed in my skills and got page, after page, after page, after page of available jobs. Granted, almost all in Barcelona and Madrid but a few in Andalucia (and there was one in Almeria!) but it seems blanket advice to all that there are 6/7 million in the queue is not quite right.




snikpoh said:


> When I searched their site I left all fields set to "all" apart from the area being Andalucia.


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## Turco1 (Aug 18, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Good to get a follow up.
> Do I understand that he's trying to open a café in Barcelona??
> If so I'd say that he's jumping from the frying pan into the fat - and maybe big time.
> Everbody and his cousin has tried to open a bar/ cafe now because of the crisis and I'm sorry to say a very large number have failed if not for money issues for paperwork problems. Still, you're probably right; he needs to do this and get it out of his system. Who knows, perhaps he'll come up smelling of roses?



Hi Pesky Wesky!

Yeah, he is buying a cafe and I really believe it's because he is too optimistic. He could come-up smelling of roses but I, unfortunately, don't think that will be that easy considering the economic situation in Spain. I haven't even been there but from what I have read online, it seems really bad and intense and the economic problems won't be solved for at least the next few years. That leads me to wanting to thank you and every other poster who states the truth on the current situation in Spain. I have noticed that you get a lot of back-lash for being honest but I hope you know to continue being so because the truth is better no matter how negative it might seem! I noticed that you wrote on one of your posts about how there aren't that many articles written about businesses shutting down even though it's the reality. I came to this forum to learn more from the insight of individuals like you since it won't be biased and not just written for journalistic reasons. I did hear that the economy is slowly recovering but is that really the case? Are there still that many business that are suffering or closing, Pesky Wesky?

Thank you for all of your input!


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## Turco1 (Aug 18, 2014)

incastone said:


> The situation is not good for entrepreneurs/self-employed people, and that does need to be addressed.
> But you can avoid having to pay social security if you pay for your own private health insurance (80 euro per month) and just file a tax return on your income.
> You won´t get unemployment benefits of course but if you have a stable enough income and it seems a risk worth taking, it seems like a sound option, at least until your revenue makes paying into the system worth it again.
> Doing it that way also assuages any guilt from not declaring all income, because you´re not entitled to any state benefits anyway.
> ...




Thank you for your input, incastone. You seem to know quite a bit about the tax system. I'm wondering if you know if cafe owners have to pay a tax based on their revenue and also have to pay into the autonomo?


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Actually, no you're right, I do agree with the article except the first one about uni. I think the problem with uni is more that, as you say, they are packed. Packed with people who don't really want to be there, but who prefer being there than working or on an FP course.
> My husband is an FP teacher, Business Administration, and the stories he brings home...!! For example this year, and I think last year everything was so badly organised that the course had supposedly started before registration for the courses had finished, so he was teaching to a half empty room. This is the support teachers get from the authorities. And this is only one incident in a litany of back stabbing moves from the education authorities. Last year, not sure about this year, there was a TV campaign from the government of Spain about FP courses - after the courses had begun and long after the registration dates!! They seem to do everything possible to make FP not work.
> I'm not sure about PYME's not wanting graduates. Maybe they don't want graduates, but they don't want anyone 40++ either. From what I see when I go into companies they want anyone under 35, after that you're yesterday's jam (IT Crowd).
> There's definitly a lack of support for finding your way around the job market, for the training that you have acess to etc. My daughter was given minimal job orientation at school.


In Andalucia, university and FP courses both start before registration is finished, every year. It's the way the system is set up. Crazy! My son was affected - he missed his first two weeks of his first year of FP because it took the Junta de Andalucia that long to sort out which program all the students were being admitted to. And the FP programs definitely aren't well supported by the government, as could be seen by the dire condition of the lab where my son had class. Broken equipment, expired chemicals, insufficient materials for all the students...but the teachers were dedicated and hardworking, and they did the best that they could under the circumstances. 

My son said one of the most useful classes he had in his FP course was 'Formación y Orientación Laboral'. They studied Spanish labor law, how to write a CV, what to do in a job interview, how to understand a job contract and pay slip, etc. It's a required class in every one of the FP courses in Andalucia. My son says he doesn't know why isn't a required class in high school because it teaches basic information that everyone should understand.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

kalohi said:


> In Andalucia, university and FP courses both start before registration is finished, every year. It's the way the system is set up. Crazy! My son was affected - he missed his first two weeks of his first year of FP because it took the Junta de Andalucia that long to sort out which program all the students were being admitted to. And the FP programs definitely aren't well supported by the government, as could be seen by the dire condition of the lab where my son had class. Broken equipment, expired chemicals, insufficient materials for all the students...but the teachers were dedicated and hardworking, and they did the best that they could under the circumstances.
> 
> My son said one of the most useful classes he had in his FP course was 'Formación y Orientación Laboral'. They studied Spanish labor law, how to write a CV, what to do in a job interview, how to understand a job contract and pay slip, etc. It's a required class in every one of the FP courses in Andalucia. My son says he doesn't know why isn't a required class in high school because it teaches basic information that everyone should understand.


Spain I love you, but you make me _*craazzzyyyyyyy!!!!*_ at the same time. What is the point, just what is the point of starting a course before the registration process has finished. And the worst thing is there's absolutely no reason to do it. It doesn't even save money in any way.

Anyway, looking on the bright side, looks like against all odds your son had good teachers and he benefited from his course!!!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Horlics said:


> OK. I just wondered because I went to indeed.es and keyed in my skills and got page, after page, after page, after page of available jobs. Granted, almost all in Barcelona and Madrid but a few in Andalucia (and there was one in Almeria!) but it seems blanket advice to all that there are 6/7 million in the queue is not quite right.


There will always be jobs for people with skills, especially professional people. The more you earn the more likely you are to be employed these days.
I'm happily retired but since leaving the UK I've been constantly offered work that I don't really want. I'm a qualified graduate teacher of languages and an experienced translator/interpreter. I did take a job in Prague teaching English but it was well-paid, one day a week, the students were interesting and I did it to please a friend. Here in Spain I've been asked to teach English and German but I don't want to take on any work. OH and I have clocked up over seventy years of working between us!! Ya basta.....

But....most people who post on this Forum seeking work aren't skilled professionals. Some, a few, are artisans, skilled plumbers, carpenters, electricians but an awful lot are the 'I can turn my hand to anything' group. If they arrive and do find work odds are it will be casual, on the black.

From personal experience of talking to local people and seeing what goes on in our charity shop, I'd say unemployment is still a major problem in this area, where highly-paid professional jobs are scarce. Interestingly, there was a piece in El Pais on Saturday which said that a recent poll showed that people in Andalucia were more concerned about unemployment and lack of jobs than corruption.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Turco1 said:


> Hi Pesky Wesky!
> 
> Yeah, he is buying a cafe and I really believe it's because he is too optimistic. He could come-up smelling of roses but I, unfortunately, don't think that will be that easy considering the economic situation in Spain. I haven't even been there but from what I have read online, it seems really bad and intense and the economic problems won't be solved for at least the next few years. That leads me to wanting to thank you and every other poster who states the truth on the current situation in Spain. I have noticed that you get a lot of back-lash for being honest but I hope you know to continue being so because the truth is better no matter how negative it might seem! I noticed that you wrote on one of your posts about how there aren't that many articles written about businesses shutting down even though it's the reality. I came to this forum to learn more from the insight of individuals like you since it won't be biased and not just written for journalistic reasons. I did hear that the economy is slowly recovering but is that really the case? Are there still that many business that are suffering or closing, Pesky Wesky?
> 
> Thank you for all of your input!


Thanks for your nice post.
Spain is important to me. I came here like many not intending to stay, but ended up with a husband, a daughter, a large extended family, a house, a job, good, very good friends and, in short, a life.
I'd like others to experience that, and to gain understanding of the country that has become so important to me

Unfortunately nowadays that does mean imparting information that is not always gratefully received!! As you say I sometimes get a little criticism for being honest. This thread is quite informative/ entertaining. I have a little outburst on page 10
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la...ession-affecting-your-area-10.html#post865606

As far as businesses opening and closing I just know what happens around me, and most people on the forum do the same - comment on what they see. In fact it was through the forum that I really realised just how diverse Spain is and how others Brits in Spain were living a completely different reality to mine.

So yes, businesses (mainly clothes shops, bars and food shops) are still opening and closing. The estate agents went years ago, at the beginning of the present crisis. You made me curious so I had a look to see if there was anything on this in the press. I did actually post something a while ago, but I can't remember where.
Unfortunately
SPOILER ALERT, BAD NEWS AHEAD!!!
I found that Zara has actually closed down some shops!
From Jan 2014


> Cambio de estrategia de Inditex en España. La caída generalizada del consumo durante los últimos cinco años ha provocado que la empresa enfocara su estrategia de crecimiento hacia otros países, fundamentalmente China y Rusia, lo que ha conllevado que el número de locales permaneciera prácticamente estable. Todo hasta el año pasado. *Durante el primer semestre de su ejercicio fiscal, entre febrero y noviembre, la compañía ha cerrado un total de 61 establecimientos en nuestro país.*


Basically it says that due to reduced spending by consumers they have closed down 61 shops. This whilst the owner Amancio Ortega added $7 billion to his fortune last year according to Forbes !!
Amancio Ortega - Forbes

To end on a more positive note, here's an article from El País. It says that small business are picking up speed. One thing that the article talks about is alternative financing and it's true that, at least in my area, crowdfunding is fast gaining support
Las pymes recuperan el pulso | Economía | EL PAÃ�S


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Horlics said:


> OK. I just wondered because I went to indeed.es and keyed in my skills and got page, after page, after page, after page of available jobs. Granted, almost all in Barcelona and Madrid but a few in Andalucia (and there was one in Almeria!) but it seems blanket advice to all that there are 6/7 million in the queue is not quite right.


Now you're making me wonder what your skills are!!
If you have time could you do me a favour and just look again and see how many of those jobs have been advertised for less than 30 days, and out of those how many ask for native English speakers? I'm genuinely interested.
If there really are a lot we should post the link.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

It's IT work Pesky, and all pretty recent. But like Mary said, professional stuff is often constantly in demand, so you do find that such jobs are posted over and over as they don't get the takers they need. I didn't notice any that ask for native English speakers.

I only posted what I did to make the point again that it's not hopeless for everybody and therefore the one-size-fits-all advice isn't appropriate. And yes, I do agree that most who seek advice here are not in the market for work that's in high demand. I won't say highly skilled because I regard plumbers and the like as skilled. I certainly couldn't do it! Anyway, I've done the subject to death so that's me finished 

What's tragic about the current situation is that employers tend to pay for only what they need, so they will take the professionals but limit opportunities for development positions, which means the next generation won't come through.






Pesky Wesky said:


> Now you're making me wonder what your skills are!!
> If you have time could you do me a favour and just look again and see how many of those jobs have been advertised for less than 30 days, and out of those how many ask for native English speakers? I'm genuinely interested.
> If there really are a lot we should post the link.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Horlics said:


> It's IT work Pesky, and all pretty recent. But like Mary said, professional stuff is often constantly in demand, so you do find that such jobs are posted over and over as they don't get the takers they need. I didn't notice any that ask for native English speakers.
> 
> I only posted what I did to make the point again that it's not hopeless for everybody and therefore the one-size-fits-all advice isn't appropriate. And yes, I do agree that most who seek advice here are not in the market for work that's in high demand. I won't say highly skilled because I regard plumbers and the like as skilled. I certainly couldn't do it! Anyway, I've done the subject to death so that's me finished
> 
> What's tragic about the current situation is that employers tend to pay for only what they need, so they will take the professionals but limit opportunities for development positions, which means the next generation won't come through.


I know what you mean about doing the subject to death, but I think it's worth it in order to clarify the work situation. If not the info can end up being worthless so what's the point of posting? I said about looking at the date on the jobs because a long time ago I "helpfully" posted a link to jobs and another member (Stravinsky, Jimenato??) pointed out they were all out of date!
In the end we're not disagreeing, just looking at different aspects of a same. It's essential to take into account that the area you are looking in and the professional field are of course going to influence your findings. I do remember another poster talking about IT opportunities in Madrid (can't remember who/ what/ when). My own area is teaching English and yes, there are quite a few jobs BUT it would be totally misleading if someone posted just that - that there are a large number of teaching jobs available in many different parts of Spain. The salaries are very different depending on native / non native, teaching children/ adults, teaching in an academy/ self employed/ in company, in the south/ north in a city/ the country and the conditions? There are timetable issues, travelling, holiday pay etc etc. If you don't give that info you might as well not post because you're not giving useful info. You're giving info that could be very misinterpreted.
Which is why your last post is so important because it gives a much more complete idea of the situation!


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## incastone (Nov 7, 2014)

Turco1 said:


> Thank you for your input, incastone. You seem to know quite a bit about the tax system. I'm wondering if you know if cafe owners have to pay a tax based on their revenue and also have to pay into the autonomo?


There are common concepts that if you´re familiar with in one system, you can work through in another, specifically what the pros and cons are with regards to being employed, self'employed or starting your own private limited company.

If you are opening a cafe, then you will need employees, unless you are planning to staff and run it all by yourself, which you may be planning to do, I don´t know.
If so I hope you don´t plan on having a social life 

As an autonomo , if you have between 1 and 24 employees then you get an extra reduction of 20% from your tax liability.
You can also choose a tax regime as an autonomo that gives you a cheeky 5% extra reduction in tax liability to take into account ´doubtful allowances and expenditure´.
You got to love the Spanish!
This is in addition to normal deductions for business expenses and allowances.

You will be responsible though for paying social security contributions for each employee to the tune of about 30% of their annual salary, but only on the first 3 Grand or so, therefore for each employee you will have to fork out around a Grand a year, plus your own, unless you don´t want or need the safety net of unemployment benefit and pension, in which case you can just pay for your own health insurance and you´d be legally covered in terms of fulfilling residency requirements, which dictater that as well as a certain level of income - about 5 grand a year at the moment - you must have health cover.
(You could of course insist that your employees are also responsible for their own ss payments, in effect having freelancers (other autonomos) contracted to you.
They would then just file their own tax return and make their own SS payments (if that´s what _they_ wanted to do).

An interesting thing is that nobody in Spain is obliged to file an annual tax return if their income is at 22,000 euros or below. Considering that all income tax in Spain is based on self'assessment, this is something to think about, and people obviously fiddle the numbers slightly (if they can), and how much is fiddled depends on how much their region is trying to sting them.

For example, everyone in every state pays a ´general´tax rate on income, which is 12.75% on the first 17,707 euros, going up to just over 30% for income over 300,000 euros.
Then comes an additional regional tax, which varies from state to state, with the most expensive (including Andalucía and Catalunya) pushing the total up to 24.75% for the lowest band and a whopping 56%  on the highest. Ouch.
Under these circumstances then, most people seem to declare what they think is reasonable, which in my experience with candid people averages about 60% of their true income.
Everyone does get a personal allowance of just over 5,000 euros though, PLUS an extra allowance (that decreases as the wage goes up). 
People that are formally employed have their tax withheld by their employer, and any rebates are based on their personal tax returns. 

It could well work out better for you to form a private limited company, and the Spanish have eased off on capital requirements when it comes to small limited liability companies - you only need 3,006 euros of capital investment to form a Spanish SL.

You then have access to a lot of further deductions and benefits.
Corporation tax for small businesses is 20%, and small is defined as being again with 1-24 employees and a turnover in the previous year of 5 million euros or less.
You can calculate depreciation and write it off against your profit to reduce your income tax liability, and because you are as the director also an employee, you can pay yourself dividends at a lower tax rate, write off education costs for your kids, your healthcare costs (up to 500 euro per year), food (up to 9 euro per day) etc etc.
All formally employed people can avail themselves of these deductions IF their employer offers them, which you of course as the employer can. As far as I know one-man-band autonomos can´t do this because they don´t enjoy the status of being an employer and employee at the same time.

Getting it set up is a real PITA though, but not unmanageable, and you can always pay a specialist firm to do it for you for 1,000 euros or so. Probably a good investment especially if you don´t speak Spanish.

You need to familiarise yourself with every detail.
I´m obviously slightly disturbed in that I get a kick out of absorbing all this stuff, but I appreciate it´s all gobbledygook to a lot of people, but then, should those people really be going into business in the first place?

The whole point of doing it is to avail yourself of all the advantages that you don´t have as a basic employee, so it pays, literally, to arm yourself with this knowledge, even if you are going to pay an accountant to do your books.

Christ, I need a drink


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

> =incastone;5712362
> 
> An interesting thing is that nobody in Spain is obliged to file an annual tax return if their income is at 22,000 euros or below.


Not exactly


> Por ejemplo, *no están obligados a declarar los contribuyentes con rentas exclusivamente procedentes del trabajo que no superen los 22.000 euros brutos anuales*. No obstante, este límite se recorta hasta los 11.200 euros si los rendimientos proceden de más de un pagador (siempre que las cantidades percibidas del segundo y siguientes pagadores superen los 1.500 euros). Eso quiere decir que profesionales como los "freelance" o que hayan cambiado varias veces de trabajo durante un año van a tener que declarar. Ojo porque la Seguridad Social también se considera un pagador, por lo que los desempleados con prestación deben tener en cuenta si han tenido otros dos pagadores a lo largo del ejercicio anterior, ya que en ese caso estarían obligados a realizar la declaración.El límite también se recorta a los 11.200 euros cuando el contribuyente perciba pensiones compensatorias del cónyuge o anualidades por alimentos no exentas; y también cuando el pagador no esté obligado a retener parte de sus rendimientos o cuando los rendimientos estén sujetos a un tipo fijo de retención.


Renta 2013: ¿Quién tiene la obligación de presentar la declaración?
Inland Revenue site in English here
Tax Agency - Home

Another helpful site here for personal and business tax
Advoco : Free Advice Centre


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## incastone (Nov 7, 2014)

Sure, as you point out there are extenuating circumstances, receiving alimony and capital gains on shares and stock investments as your quote points out. 

Something I missed but you've revealed there which is really important I think is if you are a freelancer working on various projects throughout the year. That's important.
But for most extranjeros that go autonomo with their own small business, these won't apply, but defo worth bearing in mind. 

I think that the way a lot of people see it, is if they are paying their own healthcare insurance, and paying a reasonable sum into the tax coffers, for new startups it makes sense to not declare everything, as that way you are basically giving yourself the tax break that new businesses would get in any other EU country that isn't trying to claw their way out of a hole (created by themselves through corruption, effectively) by slamming everyone for tax - tax that a good chunk of is still going into the pockets of a bunch of deviants anyway..


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

incastone said:


> Sure, as you point out there are extenuating circumstances, receiving alimony and capital gains on shares and stock investments as your quote points out.
> 
> Something I missed but you've revealed there which is really important I think is if you are a freelancer working on various projects throughout the year. That's important.
> But for most extranjeros that go autonomo with their own small business, these won't apply, but defo worth bearing in mind.
> ...


are you certain that it's actually* legal* to not register as autónomo if you are working self-employed - because I'm pretty sure that it isn't 

and with a start-up of just 50€ a month, it's not as painful as it used to be


& it's for sure not legal to under-declare for tax - though I'm not daft enough to believe that it doesn't happen


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Brussels is urging Spain to remove the differences between temporary and permanent contracts in terms of employees' rights. But instead of improving the rights of those on short-term contracts, it wants Spain to make it even cheaper to sack permanent staff. This has already happened once; when they chopped back on redundancy payments two years ago it was supposed to result in more permanent jobs, but in fact the opposite has happened - when permanent staff leave, they are replaced by temporary workers.

Coincidentally (?) wages for workers on temporary contracts have fallen by 25% since 2008. For those on permanent contracts the fall was 5%.

Bruselas tacha de 'lento, ineficaz e injusto' el recorte salarial en España | EconomÃ*a | EL PAÍS


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## incastone (Nov 7, 2014)

Definitely not legal to under-declare for tax, lol! I'm not saying I condone it either, but at the moment it's the only way a lot of people can get by and meet their commitments.

As was mentioned in a different thread, shafting the system is seen as being fairly normal, and Government officials leading the way in setting a bad example left, right and centre by 'meeting their commitments' wholesale, doesn't help matters.

I am sure yes, that not registering as an autónomo is legal.
You still have to have your own health insurance by law, and you will not be eligible for a pension or any other benefits..

if you have a modicum of investment sense, you can take care of your own nest egg without needing a pension, and with inflation being what it is and the ECB copying the U.S.´s QE scheme, printing approx. 20 Billion euros per month to artificially inflate the economy, it would be a wiser bet NOT to invest in a state pension, but that is a pessimistic (realist) view of a projected situation that hasn´t happened yet so you can take it with a pinch of salt.

Who knows what kind of currency crisis is just around the corner though. Printing money ad infinitum is creating a bubble the likes of which have never been seen, and even senior economists have no real idea of what is going to happen.

Before this year, as a registered autónomo you decided to pay the maximum contribution rate for social security, you were still not entitled to any unemployment benefits.
This kind of makes sense in a way because the bulk of the contributions for formally employed workers is paid by their employer.
You would only be eligible for healthcare and pension.
From 2014 though you can choose to pay a supplement of 14 euros per month but it will only entitle you to up to 12 months unemployment benefit as opposed to 24 months, and if as an autónomo you took maternity leave, you would only get the related benefits if you continued to pay your entire contribution (again with an extra supplement) during that maternity leave.

*The minimum contribution for any autónomo is currently 256 euros per month, regardless of revenue/profit.*

There are discounts available though for certain groups, such as men under 30 and women under 35 who are setting up as autónomo for the first time. They can claim a 30% discount (applied automatically) for the first 30 months.

Also, some traders that qualify as ´venta ambulante´can get a discount of 45% for an unlimited period, but these are restricted to:

*4781/2/9 Retail sale by stalls or markets of tabacco, food, beverages, textiles, clothing and other goods

4799 Other retail sales not in stores, stalls or markets
*



The other thing about registering as an autónomo is that you are obliged to register for VAT no matter what your revenue is. There are no thresholds like we have in the UK.

You can also legally qualify as exempt from social security if you can prove that your revenue is generated from activity that is not ´regular´, but interpretation of that sounds a bit tricky.


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

Maybe it would be better to reduce the rights of permanent employees as long as it doesn't go too far. 

At present small businesses are faced with so many potential costs when employing somebody on a permanent contract, they simply side-step it all by doing everything with very flexible (for the employer) contracts which are not like a traditional long term full employment arrangements.

As an example, I have a family member who drives a delivery van for a national carrier in the UK. He is regarded as self employed and his contract with the company is what most people would recognise as being the dreaded zero-hours.

Probably the biggest worry of a business without a workforce on permanent contracts that foster some level of loyalty or at least commitment, is the potential to fail to carry-out their operations due to unexpected staff issues.

Not so with the courier company. My family member has had to agree that if he is unable to attend work due to sickness, he will be "fined" 180 UKP for the day, so that the company can pay an agency for his emergency replacement.

And this is a person who must telephone the company each morning to find out whether he's required to attend each day, as the company will leave the drivers at home when there is no work for them - unpaid.

It's dreadful.

If you add up all the days not worked by the zero-hours folks they would probably add significantly to the unemployment level.

But then the unemployment figures in the UK are not an accurate reflection of reality anyway. Many reports say it's double the published rate and the last time I heard the TUC's view it was that it's closer to triple.

Getting the rights of the employer and the employee better balanced would be a good step.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

incastone;5719106
..
if you have a modicum of investment sense said:


> A 'nest egg' of £36k saved as an annuity. will currently return you less than £150 a month.
> 
> If you have £150k you will not at current interest rates get a return sufficient to live on without an extra source of income, such as a FSS pension or similar.
> As for not requiring unemployment benefits....I guess you are referring to a single person with no mortgage and the immediate prospects of renewed employment.
> ...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

incastone said:


> Definitely not legal to under-declare for tax, lol! I'm not saying I condone it either, but at the moment it's the only way a lot of people can get by and meet their commitments.
> 
> As was mentioned in a different thread, shafting the system is seen as being fairly normal, and Government officials leading the way in setting a bad example left, right and centre by 'meeting their commitments' wholesale, doesn't help matters.
> 
> ...



ALL new registrations for autónomo or those who haven't been registered for 5 years start at 50€ a month, regardless of age

this gradually increases to the full amount over 18/24 months (can't remember precisely, but there's a link on here somewhere in the FAQs thread

do you have any kind of official link which says that you don't have to register as autónomo ? I'd be interested to read it

I shall ask my gestor when I see him - probably tomorrow 


& with my moderator hat on 







- can you provide a link to the copy/paste bit in the middle of your post, as per forum rules


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Horlics said:


> Maybe it would be better to reduce the rights of permanent employees as long as it doesn't go too far.
> 
> At present small businesses are faced with so many potential costs when employing somebody on a permanent contract, they simply side-step it all by doing everything with very flexible (for the employer) contracts which are not like a traditional long term full employment arrangements.
> 
> ...


What a dreadful situation you describe....but not atypical, I fear. And yes, the TUC estimates the official figures are way out of line with reality.

The way many workers are treated in the UK -and Spain - these days is like something out of the nineteenth century. I read somewhere that a fifth of all workers receive less than a living wage. The tax burden falls heaviest on the less well-off too.

The best way to raise wages and increase productivity is skills training and education but what incentive is there for business to do that? My partner employed three apprentices in a workforce of twenty-five. They went on day release to college and received on the job training from qualified, experienced technicians.
Then, having completed their training and gained qualifications they were easy prey for larger companies who having avoided the time and expense of the years of training could tempt them with a higher wage offer...We were amongst the highest wage payers in our area but there's always a limit beyond which you can't go.

What exactly is the Government doing to boost skills training and apprenticeships in the engineering and other industries?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

> From *incastone* The other thing about registering as an autónomo is that you are obliged to register for VAT no matter what your revenue is. There are no thresholds like we have in the UK.


Uhhm, actually that's another thing that's not right. Education doesn't have VAT applied. I have never registered for VAT in all the years I've been self employed here.

I still think if you need info about tax the best place to get it is from hacienda itself


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## incastone (Nov 7, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> ALL new registrations for autónomo or those who haven't been registered for 5 years start at 50€ a month, regardless of age
> 
> this gradually increases to the full amount over 18/24 months (can't remember precisely, but there's a link on here somewhere in the FAQs thread


I'm sure you're right, but my figure of 256 euros per month with the associated discounts (if applicable, men under 30 and women under 35 etc) is referring to the minimum social security payments that an autónomo must make. If there is an additional charge of 50 euro per month as you suggest, then that would be added _on top_.
If that´s the case then 300 odd euro per month is the minimum payment (to start with!) that an autónomo must make, not 50 euro as you seem to be implying.



xabiachica said:


> do you have any kind of official link which says that you don't have to register as autónomo ? I'd be interested to read it


Do you have an official link that says you do?!
The whole point of the system in Spain is that nobody gets a free handout, like they do in the UK. 
If you don´t pay any in, you don´t get any out. That´s a risk the government is happy to let the individual take for themselves, because either way they´re covered.
In my experience, governments don´t make a point of openly advertising options like this, because they´d rather have their 300 plus euros every month, thank you very much, from people that blindly follow the only options that are presented to them openly.
They _rely_ on people not familiarising themselves with all the ins and outs because it maximises their profits. They are a business too, remember. Or does anyone in this day and age still believe that governments have the interests of the people as their main concern?
If anyone still thinks that about the Spanish government then they must have a screw loose!



xabiachica said:


> & with my moderator hat on
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sure. It´s from exactly the same page on the same website that you referred me to in the FAQ section:

Guide to Spain's autonomo system



Pesky Wesky said:


> Uhhm, actually that's another thing that's not right. Education doesn't have VAT applied. I have never registered for VAT in all the years I've been self employed here.


There are three different VAT rates and god-knows how many classifications of self-employed individuals, both as ´sole traders´and ´professional contractors´. 
Obviously you are going to be able to find some examples where one size doesn´t fit all. It´s not really within the scope of a forum post to cover every single instance and possibility, but as a ´sole trader´or trading business in general, then you have to register for VAT. (The person who asked the question I was originally responding to was asking about this kind of trading - opening a cafe - not about being a professional language teacher, so my information was geared towards him). 



Pesky Wesky said:


> I still think if you need info about tax the best place to get it is from hacienda itself


I think if you are a foreigner looking to start a business here, and you don´t speak fluent Spanish when you arrive, and you don´t want to end up throwing yourself off a cliff, the best place to go for tax advice is to a professional tax lawyer, not Hacienda.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

incastone;5721178
There are three different VAT rates and god-knows how many classifications of self-employed individuals said:


> I agree that a forum post is not going to give enough room to explain all the ins and outs of a countries tax system, so it's better to not try to do it. If something like
> 
> 
> > The other thing about registering as an autónomo is that you are obliged to register for VAT no matter what your revenue is
> ...


Actually, I meant between getting info from a forum where you're going to get people chipping in with what they know and going to hacienda I'd go to hacienda. Between a lawyer and hacienda I'd still go to hacienda rather than a lawyer, (it is free after all) but maybe that's because I'm a low income earner and wouldn't be able to do anything creative with my money anyway


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

incastone said:


> I'm sure you're right, but my figure of 256 euros per month with the associated discounts (if applicable, men under 30 and women under 35 etc) is referring to the minimum social security payments that an autónomo must make. If there is an additional charge of 50 euro per month as you suggest, then that would be added _on top_.
> If that´s the case then 300 odd euro per month is the minimum payment (to start with!) that an autónomo must make, not 50 euro as you seem to be implying.
> 
> 
> ...


you're wrong - & I'm not inplying anything - I'mstating it as a fact - it's actually about 53€ a month - that's ALL you pay to start with - EVERYONE - I personally know people who have taken advantage of it, & they are well into their 40s

here's an article about it
Tarifa plana para nuevos autónomos | Ser autónomo

those under 30 get an additional discount

I do agree with PeskyWesky though - although there are quite a few knowledgeable members here, the actual authority is the best place for definitive info - & for tax issues, that is hacienda


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## incastone (Nov 7, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Actually, I meant between getting info from a forum where you're going to get people chipping in with what they know and going to hacienda I'd go to hacienda. Between a lawyer and hacienda I'd still go to hacienda rather than a lawyer, (it is free after all) but maybe that's because I'm a low income earner and wouldn't be able to do anything creative with my money anyway


No, you´re absolutely right, it was a sweeping generalisation and in an area where there is all ready so much confusion it was stupid of me to add to it, so point taken.

Lawyers or more specifically tax lawyers are there to help you maximise your income from a business venture, so in that respect I would venture that they would be a better bet initially when you get set up, especially if you´re trying to trade commercially.

They´re not that expensive though, and you only have to use them in that context at the beginning (if you find a competent one).
After that you just need an accountant and they can be hired for about 400 euro per year all in, so long as the business is fairly straightforward, which is pretty good value for money.
I will use one, but I like to have at least a rough idea of what I´m getting myself into from the outset as well.


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## incastone (Nov 7, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> you're wrong - & I'm not inplying anything - I'mstating it as a fact - it's actually about 53€ a month - that's ALL you pay to start with - EVERYONE - I personally know people who have taken advantage of it, & they are well into their 40s
> 
> here's an article about it
> Tarifa plana para nuevos autónomos | Ser autónomo
> ...


Ok.
But then maybe you´d like to update your forum FAQ links as the website you directed me to in the beginning as having the correct information obviously _doesn´t_ have the correct information.

Not that I´m implying anything, but it´s all well and good pointing the finger and saying "you´re wrong" when I´m looking at info from a resource you yourself have told me is correct!

Having just read the different resource you´ve now linked to, yes you can get a discount so you only pay the 50 odd euro, but only for the first year and a half unfortunately, then it reverts back to only being able for men under 30 and women under 35.

There´s also a few caveats, which I´ll list here for completeness:

You can´t have been registered as self employed within the last five years.
You can´t have employees.
You can´t be a director of a corporation (either your own or anyone elses).
You can´t previously have received any Social Security benefit payouts (as a freelancer).
You can´t be a freelancer (i.e. this scheme is only for ´sole-traders´not contracted professionals).
Not having multiple jobs with paid employment and self


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

incastone said:


> Ok.
> But then maybe you´d like to update your forum FAQ links as the website you directed me to in the beginning as having the correct information obviously _doesn´t_ have the correct information.
> 
> Not that I´m implying anything, but it´s all well and good pointing the finger and saying "you´re wrong" when I´m looking at info from a resource you yourself have told me is correct!


there is a link there somewhere to the new regs - off the top of my head I couldn't say exactly where, but istr there was a discussion about it & we saved a link to that

as for the ADVOCO link, I'm surprised that they haven't updated their website - they are usually ahead of the game


this IS a discussion forum though, not intended to be a source for official info, though we do try to keep up as much as we can - bearing in mind that we're volunteers & have real, busy lives

& some of us, including me, run our own businesses here, too


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

incastone said:


> No, you´re absolutely right, it was a sweeping generalisation and in an area where there is all ready so much confusion it was stupid of me to add to it, so point taken.
> 
> Lawyers or more specifically tax lawyers are there to help you maximise your income from a business venture, so in that respect I would venture that they would be a better bet initially when you get set up, especially if you´re trying to trade commercially.
> 
> ...


My "accountant" is pretty cheap too, couple of beers will usually do it

Your statement wasn't stupid by any means, just misleading


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## incastone (Nov 7, 2014)

xabiachica said:


> there is a link there somewhere to the new regs - off the top of my head I couldn't say exactly where, but istr there was a discussion about it & we saved a link to that
> 
> as for the ADVOCO link, I'm surprised that they haven't updated their website - they are usually ahead of the game
> 
> ...


Understood. I´m also surprised that the ADVOCO page isn´t up to date as several people in addition to the forum FAQ had quoted it as being the most reliable and informative, which it is, up to a point!

It´s a shame that they´ve only given this discount for a year and a half, as I´m sure most small new businesses would really benefit from having a longer stretch.
Now we just need to get to the bottom of the question about whether only submitting a fiscal representation form without being an autónomo is legal 

I´m sure this is right though


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Here is some information about the regimes for new self employed in Spain in English
New autonomos in Spain benefit from reduced €50 social security payments | Spainwide Blog
It seems that ADVOCO are not accepting new clients nor updating their web due to volume of business.

There is this however about not paying social security and I've seen similar on many other sites


> *Exemption from autonomo social security*
> The only people who are exempt from paying social security are those that the law recognises as not employed nor self-employed, in the sense of regularly offering their services as a main occupation. These are people paid for some irregular, occasional activity or even one off events. An example might be an academic on a salary paid for occasional speaking engagements outside the university.
> No one earning more than the Spanish minimum wage or _Salario Minimo Interprofesional _or "SMI" which is currently set at €645,30 a month (from January 2013) can avoid paying social security and it should be noted that:
> - if you don't pay into the system you won't get the benefits
> - the key point is irregular : if you are demonstrably not an "occasional" autonomo (e.g. you open a shop or office or your service is permanently on offer) impossible to claim the exemption however low your income


So, if you have a regular income from being self employed this is a no no
Guide to Spain's autonomo system


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## incastone (Nov 7, 2014)

Not your direct quote I know, but this is the part that many gloss over..



Pesky Wesky said:


> *it should be noted that:
> - if you don't pay into the system you won't get the benefits*


Because Spain is one of the only countries in the EU that doesn't have any non-contribution based benefits, it's often difficult to appreciate that not 'paying your dues' doesn't apply here.

The Spanish do not pay out a penny to anybody that does not pay in. Therefore if you don't pay in you are not milking the system in the same way that people are perceived as doing if they turn up in the UK with no job prospects and/or no willingness to work.

There is no NHS and no 2nd tier unemployment benefit rate for those that haven't paid 'stamp'.

A good example is for a UK company director that is resident in Spain.
Their business revenue is liable for UK corporation tax, but their income, the money they pay themselves either as a salary or via dividends is liable for income tax in Spain, at Spanish rates and under Spanish rules.

Yet they are not required to be registered as an autónomo nor are they required by law to pay social security (unless they wish to voluntarily).
The only thing they are required to do by law is to provide for their own private healthcare - this is not voluntary. If you don´t have it you are not eligible for residency, and you could lose your residency if you have it to begin with and then cancel it.

All they have to do is to submit a fiscal representation form, in other words a tax return.
That is it.

But there´s an important point that makes this situation less attractive than it appears to be at first glance (depending on your situation).
_You can´t offset any expenses against your tax liability that autónomos are entitled to do._ 
You can still claim any allowances that apply to regular income tax rules that aren´t exclusive to autónomos though, including the roughly 7,500 euro personal allowance that everyone earning over 13 odd thousand euros per year gets (more if your income is below this).

How big of an impact this strategy has really depends on exactly what kind of activity you will be/are involved in, and how important a safety net is to you at the time in your life you make your decision.

With the new rules that allow for the 50 euro autónomo rate that xabiachica has linked to, most people involved in regular trading would be foolish in my opinion not to take it, although with all those caveats, this rate is actually _only_ open to those involved in traditional sole-trader trading activity.

If you decide to go in though at the low rate, and it doesn´t work out, you won´t be eligible to register as an autónomo again and get that rate for another 5 years, and that´s if the rule even exists after that time.
If you start just off your own back then at least you have a chance to see if there is a a market for what you´re trying to do before committing yourself to the autónomo scheme.
Again this might not be so smart if what you´re doing requires capital investment and machinery/equipment etc, but in that eventuality you´d be better off setting up an SL anyway where you can amortisise and/or deduct your startup costs.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

my gestor wasn't in the bar taking his coffee when I passed this morning, so I emailed him

if you are doing any work in Spain at all, in a self-employed capacity, legally you must register as autónomo, in his words, 'from the first euro'.

it isn't enough to simply pay income tax


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## incastone (Nov 7, 2014)

That's interesting. I'm very curious now because I know that in practise, at least in Andalucía, it is being done with no consequences.

So either it's being overlooked deliberately/accidentally, or they have somehow been put in the 'irregular' income category, although they have never stated to the authorities that this is how they wanted to be classed.

Or is this an example of varying interpretations being applied, or no-one really caring?

I have no idea. But it's not fantasy, I assure you of that. It's being done in real life and nobody authority-wise has raised an eyebrow.

Bizarre!


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## Turco1 (Aug 18, 2014)

*Update*

Hi Everyone,

Thought I should come here and update the status of my friend because I recently saw another thread about buying/investing in a bar. To those who are still considering it, do not do it! My friend bought an existing cafe from someone in December and it honestly has not been doing well. I manage his books and have just seen a loss for the past few months. Granted it's only been a few months but still it was an existing cafe with an existing client base, so there shouldn't be this much of a loss already.

Before purchasing the cafe, he said he always saw it pretty busy with a good amount of customers and whatnot. I now think that maybe it was a 'rented crowd' or the previous owner's friends. Who knows?! I tried steering my friend away from this business idea but he thought I was just being a naysayer. I told him about all the wonderful people on this forum who gave me realistic advice and he got upset and said that I don't know what I'm talking about just from reading stuff online and that the area of his cafe is different than other areas in Spain...I think after seeing the numbers the cafe pulls in that the individuals in this forum were correct! Seems like any area of Spain is risky to conduct business in unless you have the finances to afford the loss in the end. 

My friend is of course too stubborn to admit that maybe you guys are right and that I do have a point even if I'm in the U.S while giving this advice.

Again, thank you so much to all of you for your time and honesty. I really hope my post steers away others from attempting the same endeavor. Do something more wise with your money rather than investing it in something that has a really high risk!


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Turco1 said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> Thought I should come here and update the status of my friend because I recently saw another thread about buying/investing in a bar. To those who are still considering it, do not do it! My friend bought an existing cafe from someone in December and it honestly has not been doing well. I manage his books and have just seen a loss for the past few months. Granted it's only been a few months but still it was an existing cafe with an existing client base, so there shouldn't be this much of a loss already.
> 
> ...


First of all thanks for taking the time to get back to us. As you can see from other threads, this information is precisely what some people are looking for.

Here's hoping that your friend can turn things around, but it at least he's found out that it's not a question of getting a going business and waiting for the cash to roll in.

What happened to his legal status, 'cos you said he was refused a visa on his Croatian passport...


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## Turco1 (Aug 18, 2014)

Hi Pesky Wesky!

Nothing really happened with his legal status. I guess he just can't legally get a job there but is legally allowed to stay in Spain and run his own business. He left America to work less hours in Spain and enjoy the beach and sun. Although, sadly, he is working 6 days a week from early in the morning until late night. So much for living the easier lifestyle! 

P.S. According to what I have read, it seems like it won't be easy for non-Spaniard citizens or existing EU members to get a legal job in Spain for years to come. 

Also, thanks for that post on unemployment map. Very cool and informative.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Turco1 said:


> Hi Pesky Wesky!
> 
> Nothing really happened with his legal status. I guess he just can't legally get a job there but is legally allowed to stay in Spain and run his own business. He left America to work less hours in Spain and enjoy the beach and sun. Although, sadly, he is working 6 days a week from early in the morning until late night. So much for living the easier lifestyle!
> 
> ...


***


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## Turco1 (Aug 18, 2014)

Oh to touch base on employing someone- he had to hire a waitress for a couple hours a week because he is too tired and needs a break even though he isn't busy enough for another helping hand. The wage he has to pay is just eating at his loss that he is enduring.


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## Turco1 (Aug 18, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> ***


Opps- I meant *NEW* EU members (like Croatians) will have a hard time legally getting a job. Existing EU members are allowed to legally get a job but like you said the question is whether there are legal jobs to attain.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Turco1 said:


> Opps- I meant *NEW* EU members (like Croatians) will have a hard time legally getting a job. Existing EU members are allowed to legally get a job but like you said the question is whether there are legal jobs to attain.


What you have posted is interesting and informative and should give pause for thought to anyone whose 'Spanish dream' is built around owning a bar. It also shows that those who warn of the pitfalls are being realistic, not 'negative'.

But there are those who have an idea of Spain firmly fixed in their heads, an idea usually arising from enjoyable holidays in the sun and little if anything more. No advice or warnings will cause them to pause and think before they leap.
They learn the hard way.


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