# Odd question about food



## Vmorris22

I might sound crazy for asking, but I hope there is someone on here that could help me with this subject... I understand that the cost of food is significantly higher than the price in America (for a good reason, too). I have not been to NZ myself, but my husband has and had remarked on how amazing the food was. We are on a pretty whole food diet here (whole food meaning organic--no chemical sprays, hormones, etc.) due to just helping our overall health. I tried to do some research on GMOs (genetically modified organisms) being banned or allowed in NZ and I found very little information. In America, there is no law suggesting that a company should tell the consumer that there are chemicals in their food. So my question: can anyone tell me what the quality of food is like in NZ? If I go into a Pak'N'Save, could I find organically grown produce and meat? Would the non-organic food be just as healthy? 

I also have taken an interest in gardening, and I have heard of Kiwi's doing this as a "DIY norm", so I am assuming the climate is very good to grow your own vegetables?

Thanks! Sorry for the random question, I have been just so curious.

Victoria


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## MrsRose

We will soon be moving to NZ from the States, and this had been one of my questions as well. We too are a family that eats a mostly whole foods/organic diet, and as I am studying to become a nutritionist, this topic was fairly important to me. 

We have not lived in NZ yet, but did some thorough investigating on our first visit there...
Here's what I found:

Food purchased at supermarkets is, in general, more expensive than food purchased from a supermarket here in the States. I say "in general" because that only seems to apply if you are comparing NZ supermarkets with grocery stores like Smiths, Walmart, Fresh and Easy, etc... If you compare prices to those found in health foods stores here in the States like Whole Foods, Sprouts, etc... the cost is much more similar. Meat at New World in NZ, for example, was priced just slightly higher than Whole Foods Market here. But the produce in NZ, was priced much LESS per pound (or kilogram) than what you'd expect to pay at Whole Foods. 

Also, I noticed many independently owned produce markets, butcher shops, and farmers markets, etc... all of which seemed to offer food at lower prices than the supermarkets. 

As far as the quality of food... I spoke with numerous people on this topic while we visited NZ, and investigated many an ingredient label.  Food is not quite the same in NZ as it is here in the States...and in a good way.

I recall speaking with a particular person about how lovely it was to see so many cows roaming openly, grazing on green grass... to which I was asked, "Well how else would you do it?" Lol. THAT response was definitely an encouraging one.  I went on to explain the feed lot system in the US, and how cows and other animals could be more accurately described as _manufactured_ than _raised_ here. 

Nearly every region we visited (North Island) was checkered with farms, orchards, etc. And Many of the homes had personal gardens. And certainly the average temperatures in most parts of the North Island should allow for nearly year-round gardening. 

There are of course, still processed foods, fast food, and pesticides, etc. But these are not _nearly_ as common in NZ as they are in the US. For example, in US cities, a macdonalds can be found on virtually every corner. In Auckland, Mcdonalds could only be found every _other_ corner, or so.  (I'm joking. There aren't THAT many Mcdonalds in either country. Lol. Oh, and in NZ, Mcdonalds has LAMBburgers on the menu. ) But hopefully you get the point. Unfortunately American food culture has spread, like the plague that it is, to NZ too. But good, REAL, whole foods were much more commonplace in NZ than in the States. IMO. 

So basically, it seemed that for those of use coming from the States who have purchased the cheapest "food" possible, at the cheapest markets...the cost of food in NZ will seem outrageous. But if you're used to paying extra here in the States for organic whole foods and health foods, then the cost won't seem all that different in many cases. 
Andit make take a bit more time and effort to go to farmers markets and independently owned grocers, etc...but you'll save money that way as well.


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## TML

MrsRose said:


> We will soon be moving to NZ from the States, and this had been one of my questions as well. We too are a family that eats a mostly whole foods/organic diet, and as I am studying to become a nutritionist, this topic was fairly important to me.
> 
> We have not lived in NZ yet, but did some thorough investigating on our first visit there...
> Here's what I found:
> 
> Food purchased at supermarkets is, in general, more expensive than food purchased from a supermarket here in the States. I say "in general" because that only seems to apply if you are comparing NZ supermarkets with grocery stores like Smiths, Walmart, Fresh and Easy, etc... If you compare prices to those found in health foods stores here in the States like Whole Foods, Sprouts, etc... the cost is much more similar. Meat at New World in NZ, for example, was priced just slightly higher than Whole Foods Market here. But the produce in NZ, was priced much LESS per pound (or kilogram) than what you'd expect to pay at Whole Foods.
> 
> Also, I noticed many independently owned produce markets, butcher shops, and farmers markets, etc... all of which seemed to offer food at lower prices than the supermarkets.
> 
> As far as the quality of food... I spoke with numerous people on this topic while we visited NZ, and investigated many an ingredient label.  Food is not quite the same in NZ as it is here in the States...and in a good way.
> 
> I recall speaking with a particular person about how lovely it was to see so many cows roaming openly, grazing on green grass... to which I was asked, "Well how else would you do it?" Lol. THAT response was definitely an encouraging one.  I went on to explain the feed lot system in the US, and how cows and other animals could be more accurately described as manufactured than raised here.
> 
> Nearly every region we visited (North Island) was checkered with farms, orchards, etc. And Many of the homes had personal gardens. And certainly the average temperatures in most parts of the North Island should allow for nearly year-round gardening.
> 
> There are of course, still processed foods, fast food, and pesticides, etc. But these are not nearly as common in NZ as they are in the US. For example, in US cities, a macdonalds can be found on virtually every corner. In Auckland, Mcdonalds could only be found every other corner, or so.  (I'm joking. There aren't THAT many Mcdonalds in either country. Lol. Oh, and in NZ, Mcdonalds has LAMBburgers on the menu. ) But hopefully you get the point. Unfortunately American food culture has spread, like the plague that it is, to NZ too. But good, REAL, whole foods were much more commonplace in NZ than in the States. IMO.
> 
> So basically, it seemed that for those of use coming from the States who have purchased the cheapest "food" possible, at the cheapest markets...the cost of food in NZ will seem outrageous. But if you're used to paying extra here in the States for organic whole foods and health foods, then the cost won't seem all that different in many cases.
> Andit make take a bit more time and effort to go to farmers markets and independently owned grocers, etc...but you'll save money that way as well.


Some stats- 

NZ has mandatory labelling of NEARLY all GE foods and a labelling threshold of .9-1% GE content. They do not ban GMOs outright. 

As a whole NZ and AU have very high labelling laws. So for those with gluten or dairy intolerances that's a great thing. 

I spend 1700 on average per month on food here in America. That's 100% organic and wild caught seafood. 
To think that NZ is going to have healthier foods at the same price as American WF is laughable. 
BioGro which I would class as similar to WF has prices that the normal Joe cannot afford. & by cannot afford I mean to shop 100% organic, open range, etc. Same as our WF aka Whole Pay check. 
You need to be gardening & earn over 6 figures to purchase all these wants IMO. 
Keep in mind the stores are smaller and carry WAY less variety than us spoilt Americans. You won't easily find chocolate almond milk or unsweetened coconut milk at your small town grocer. Not to mention things like Hispanic foods- such as tortillas, etc. 
My only advice is garden garden garden- but keep in mind your soil may be full of chemicals too.....


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## MrsRose

TML said:


> Some stats-
> 
> NZ has mandatory labelling of NEARLY all GE foods and a labelling threshold of .9-1% GE content. They do not ban GMOs outright.
> 
> As a whole NZ and AU have very high labelling laws. So for those with gluten or dairy intolerances that's a great thing.
> 
> I spend 1700 on average per month on food here in America. That's 100% organic and wild caught seafood.
> To think that NZ is going to have healthier foods at the same price as American WF is laughable.
> BioGro which I would class as similar to WF has prices that the normal Joe cannot afford. & by cannot afford I mean to shop 100% organic, open range, etc. Same as our WF aka Whole Pay check.
> You need to be gardening & earn over 6 figures to purchase all these wants IMO.
> Keep in mind the stores are smaller and carry WAY less variety than us spoilt Americans. You won't easily find chocolate almond milk or unsweetened coconut milk at your small town grocer. Not to mention things like Hispanic foods- such as tortillas, etc.
> My only advice is garden garden garden- but keep in mind your soil may be full of chemicals too.....


No one has suggested that NZ has healthier foods at the same price. 

But it's not laughable to suggest that, for a family used to paying "Whole Foods prices" in the States, your grocery bill will not be so outrageously high in comparison as some claim. If you move to NZ and expect to continue with one-stop grocery shopping, and buying pre-made foods, etc... then yeah... expect to pay a great deal more than you would in the States. BUT, as I said, by putting a bit more effort and thought into meal planning and grocery purchases, one can still enjoy a healthy diet on a budget in NZ. 
Again...gardening, farmers markets, independent grocers, and even purchasing from/exchanging with local gardeners and farmers in your area are all ways to save on whole foods. 
Our family drinks a lot of almond milk. So our goal is to eventually include a few almond trees in our yard if/when we ever by a house. almonds+water+a high powered blender=almond milk. In the meantime, or if we cannot get some almond trees, we'll look for places to purchase almonds in bulk for cheaper, etc.
you want hispanic tortillas? make them. Its easy and they taste MUCH better than store bought ones. 

You're right that we are spoiled when it comes to variety, convenience, and availability of foods here in the States. But we can't very well complain that food in NZ isn't like it is in the US because it's _not_ the US. so I guess the question for expats is, "Do you want to live in NZ, or do you want to live in the US?" 

We know when we move there won't be as much eating out, or pre-packaged/ready-to-eat foods, etc... but with a little more time spent planning and preparing meals, we'll still be able to eat healthy and well. 
That's the thing though... we can either continue to shop and eat like Americans, and pay for it...or we can _change _the way we shop and eat, and maintain a comparable grocery bill and a healthy diet. 



And yes, I would absolutely argue that NZ has healthier food in general that the US when it comes to meats and produce. I don't think I'll find it necessary to pay extra for organic meats in NZ, because conventional meat in NZ is not remotely the same thing as conventional meat in the States. Same goes with many dairy products and produce.


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## MrsRose

Vmorris22, TML is right... you'll pay much more for groceries in NZ than you do in the States if you do a straight comparison. That is, if you are used to purchasing all of your groceries at one market and eating more expensive meals, etc, and you plan on buying and eating in the same way in NZ, then you'll be paying a lot more for food.

But if you are willing to make some changes like going to multiple places to get the best deals on foods, buying locally and in bulk, growing some of your own food, eating out less, and spending more time preparing meals from scratch, etc... you should be able to save quite a bit on your grocery bill. 

And keep in mind that TML is right on another point: lack of variety, in comparison to the US. Not as many specialty foods, and choices of every different flavor and every different brand, as we are used to here.


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## TML

MrsRose said:


> No one has suggested that NZ has healthier foods at the same price.
> 
> But it's not laughable to suggest that, for a family used to paying "Whole Foods prices" in the States, your grocery bill will not be so outrageously high in comparison as some claim. If you move to NZ and expect to continue with one-stop grocery shopping, and buying pre-made foods, etc... then yeah... expect to pay a great deal more than you would in the States. BUT, as I said, by putting a bit more effort and thought into meal planning and grocery purchases, one can still enjoy a healthy diet on a budget in NZ.
> Again...gardening, farmers markets, independent grocers, and even purchasing from/exchanging with local gardeners and farmers in your area are all ways to save on whole foods.
> Our family drinks a lot of almond milk. So our goal is to eventually include a few almond trees in our yard if/when we ever by a house. almonds+water+a high powered blender=almond milk. In the meantime, or if we cannot get some almond trees, we'll look for places to purchase almonds in bulk for cheaper, etc.
> you want hispanic tortillas? make them. Its easy and they taste MUCH better than store bought ones.
> 
> You're right that we are spoiled when it comes to variety, convenience, and availability of foods here in the States. But we can't very well complain that food in NZ isn't like it is in the US because it's not the US. so I guess the question for expats is, "Do you want to live in NZ, or do you want to live in the US?"
> 
> We know when we move there won't be as much eating out, or pre-packaged/ready-to-eat foods, etc... but with a little more time spent planning and preparing meals, we'll still be able to eat healthy and well.
> That's the thing though... we can either continue to shop and eat like Americans, and pay for it...or we can change the way we shop and eat, and maintain a comparable grocery bill and a healthy diet.
> 
> And yes, I would absolutely argue that NZ has healthier food in general that the US when it comes to meats and produce. I don't think I'll find it necessary to pay extra for organic meats in NZ, because conventional meat in NZ is not remotely the same thing as conventional meat in the States. Same goes with many dairy products and produce.



You seem to have your rose colored glasses on regarding NZ. And though you may THINK the country's "Green" imagine extends to food I at least believe you to be wrong. They carry the same "crap in a can" as we do, just on a much smaller level. Walk around and see some of the youth- they are becoming round waisted from processed modern "food" 
You don't need to move across the globe to find healthy choices- it takes time and effort and in some areas $$$. 

Not every item purchased in US grocers are full of pesticides and GMOs. Unfortunately we charge these poor farmers a pretty penny to carry that little organic label. Does NZ do the same? I've no idea... 
FYI - NZ allows the use of HGP on cattle. 
I don't eat beef so forgot to mention that detail. 

I'm not giving my 2cents because I find NZ inferior to the US Quite the opposite in fact. 
My point is- as I've said you will pay for your real food. No matter which country you live in. 
And your NZ wage will be considerably smaller and wont go so far.... And people need to be aware of this. Especially those coming from THE cheapest developed nation in the world.... It's a huge sticker shock.... And we're only discussing food here, not furniture, cars or even houses!


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## MrsRose

I'm sorry, but why is it that every expat with a positive opinion about anything with regards to NZ accused of looking through rose colored glasses?  I was simply encouraging another potential expat (and I'm not sure why such a this _has _to be argued like it's controversial or something) that one CAN find good food, and create an affordable grocery bill for themselves in NZ. This was not meant to be a "the US is better than NZ" debate. (or vise versa)

And are you seriously going to argue that conventionally raised meat or conventionally grown produce in NZ (Or any developed nation for that matter) are even remotely as adulterated and unhealthy as US meats and produce? I'm not saying that NZ food is all pristine, but I would definitely argue that it is of better quality than conventional foods in the states. and I'm sorry but the legal use of HGP on cattle is not exactly gasp-worthy when you consider what the FDA allows in _our_ food. 

I don't think anyone here is considering a move to NZ for the purpose of "finding healthy choices." I think we can all agree that it is indeed easier and more affordable to find a greater variety of inexpensive healthy food choices in every flavor imaginable in a country as large as the United States. My guess is is that most move to NZ for same reason any expat moves to any other country in the world: a job, family, or the way of life as a whole. 

:yield:eace:


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## Vmorris22

MrsRose said:


> We will soon be moving to NZ from the States, and this had been one of my questions as well. We too are a family that eats a mostly whole foods/organic diet, and as I am studying to become a nutritionist, this topic was fairly important to me.
> 
> We have not lived in NZ yet, but did some thorough investigating on our first visit there...
> Here's what I found:
> 
> Food purchased at supermarkets is, in general, more expensive than food purchased from a supermarket here in the States. I say "in general" because that only seems to apply if you are comparing NZ supermarkets with grocery stores like Smiths, Walmart, Fresh and Easy, etc... If you compare prices to those found in health foods stores here in the States like Whole Foods, Sprouts, etc... the cost is much more similar. Meat at New World in NZ, for example, was priced just slightly higher than Whole Foods Market here. But the produce in NZ, was priced much LESS per pound (or kilogram) than what you'd expect to pay at Whole Foods.
> 
> Also, I noticed many independently owned produce markets, butcher shops, and farmers markets, etc... all of which seemed to offer food at lower prices than the supermarkets.
> 
> As far as the quality of food... I spoke with numerous people on this topic while we visited NZ, and investigated many an ingredient label.  Food is not quite the same in NZ as it is here in the States...and in a good way.
> 
> I recall speaking with a particular person about how lovely it was to see so many cows roaming openly, grazing on green grass... to which I was asked, "Well how else would you do it?" Lol. THAT response was definitely an encouraging one.  I went on to explain the feed lot system in the US, and how cows and other animals could be more accurately described as _manufactured_ than _raised_ here.
> 
> Nearly every region we visited (North Island) was checkered with farms, orchards, etc. And Many of the homes had personal gardens. And certainly the average temperatures in most parts of the North Island should allow for nearly year-round gardening.
> 
> There are of course, still processed foods, fast food, and pesticides, etc. But these are not _nearly_ as common in NZ as they are in the US. For example, in US cities, a macdonalds can be found on virtually every corner. In Auckland, Mcdonalds could only be found every _other_ corner, or so.  (I'm joking. There aren't THAT many Mcdonalds in either country. Lol. Oh, and in NZ, Mcdonalds has LAMBburgers on the menu. ) But hopefully you get the point. Unfortunately American food culture has spread, like the plague that it is, to NZ too. But good, REAL, whole foods were much more commonplace in NZ than in the States. IMO.
> 
> So basically, it seemed that for those of use coming from the States who have purchased the cheapest "food" possible, at the cheapest markets...the cost of food in NZ will seem outrageous. But if you're used to paying extra here in the States for organic whole foods and health foods, then the cost won't seem all that different in many cases.
> Andit make take a bit more time and effort to go to farmers markets and independently owned grocers, etc...but you'll save money that way as well.


Wow. That's very encouraging! Thank you so much for all of that information! I had a slight idea that anywhere but the US would be better in the food area. I do spend extra money on the organic produce and meat, so I could see the price of food not being an issue for us. I am also very excited to garden there too! In Oklahoma, my veggies and herbs die by the middle of summer because the heat is so ridiculous. I do go to farmer markets on Saturdays, and I saw that every town in New Zealand has its own farmer's market (or Sunday Market), which is lovely. Sometimes I have to drive an hour away just to get decent food. I shop at sprouts, since whole foods is another hour drive for me; but, I have shopped there before! Thanks again!!


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## topcat83

TML said:


> You seem to have your rose colored glasses on regarding NZ. And though you may THINK the country's "Green" imagine extends to food I at least believe you to be wrong. They carry the same "crap in a can" as we do, just on a much smaller level. Walk around and see some of the youth- they are becoming round waisted from processed modern "food"
> You don't need to move across the globe to find healthy choices- it takes time and effort and in some areas $$$.


You are right, it is easy to find bad things to eat here if you want to. And many of our youth do have unhealthy 'fast food' diets that is affecting their health.

But I think the point that Mrs Rose is making is you don't have to eat that! And if you choose to eat more healthily here then it is much easier to find meat that is not pumped full of hormones or GM free crops. In fact you's almost have to go out of your way to find some, simply because our farming methods are different. 



> Not every item purchased in US grocers are full of pesticides and GMOs. Unfortunately we charge these poor farmers a pretty penny to carry that little organic label. Does NZ do the same? I've no idea...


There will be a small 'organic' section on most supermarkets, but I would say that generally all the stuff in the vegetable & meat section is pretty organic. So not many farmers choose to pay the extra and often exorbitant overheads that are required to say they are 'organic'



> FYI - NZ allows the use of HGP on cattle.
> I don't eat beef so forgot to mention that detail.


I looked this up - and you are right, it is allowed. But we have a number of beef farmer friends and none of them use it. So, like the pesticides & GMOs you'd almost have to go out of your way to find a cut of meat from an animal that had been treated with HGP.



> I'm not giving my 2cents because I find NZ inferior to the US Quite the opposite in fact.
> My point is- as I've said you will pay for your real food. No matter which country you live in.
> And your NZ wage will be considerably smaller and wont go so far.... And people need to be aware of this. Especially those coming from THE cheapest developed nation in the world.... It's a huge sticker shock.... And we're only discussing food here, not furniture, cars or even houses!


The price of food seems to be a popular subject on this forum, so I'll put my two penn'orth in too. 

In order to keep the cost of food down in New Zealand you need to shop outside the supermarkets, or keep an eye out for special offers.
And for fruit and vegetables you need to shop at the markets, and buy produce that is in season. Don't expect to buy strawberries, tomatoes & asparagus in August or you'll pay through the nose. Buy them in December and they'll be really cheap. 

And bear in mind - our cows and sheep do not live in big barns, are not pumped up with hormones, and are not fed corn to fatten them up until they have intestinal problems. They live all year round on green grass, and at worse are fed hay that the farmer often cut himself in the summer months. 

And as I say, I speak from the experience of knowing a number of North Island beef and sheep farmers now.


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## Vmorris22

TML, thank you for the added information. You're right in saying that NZ doesn't totally exclude GMOs, for I have read about that. But changing from a country that doesn't label GMOs (There is a big debacle about Whole Foods lying about some products being GMO free when those products actually contained them) to a country that has high standards is a huge improvement. I take my time when it comes to grocery shopping and planning, so that's not a problem for me--I love to cook! I am aware that prices of food is MUCH higher in NZ, but I think MrsRose was trying to say that it wouldn't shock me THAT much, since I'm used to seeing a higher bill for higher quality of food. My husband and I are willing to pay extra money or the high quality food--especially since we both notice a huge difference in our health when we switched over to organic! Thanks for the input, everyone!


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## Vmorris22

MrsRose said:


> I don't think anyone here is considering a move to NZ for the purpose of "finding healthy choices." I think we can all agree that it is indeed easier and more affordable to find a greater variety of inexpensive healthy food choices in every flavor imaginable in a country as large as the United States. My guess is is that most move to NZ for same reason any expat moves to any other country in the world: a job, family, or the way of life as a whole.
> 
> :yield:eace:


Haha. I have to laugh about this. I'm sorry I started a war here.
You're right though, we're are not moving to NZ to run away from food problems. If food were the whole issue here, I think I would just quit my job, buy some land in Colorado, and start a gigantic organic ranch. 

However, that's not the case. I just wanted to get an overall generalization of what is to be expected there when it comes to mutated food vs. real food. I thank you for the information, MrRose. You've saved me a great deal of hassle.


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## Vmorris22

topcat83 said:


> You are right, it is easy to find bad things to eat here if you want to. And many of our youth do have unhealthy 'fast food' diets that is affecting their health.
> 
> But I think the point that Mrs Rose is making is you don't have to eat that! And if you choose to eat more healthily here then it is much easier to find meat that is not pumped full of hormones or GM free crops. In fact you's almost have to go out of your way to find some, simply because our farming methods are different.
> 
> There will be a small 'organic' section on most supermarkets, but I would say that generally all the stuff in the vegetable & meat section is pretty organic. So not many farmers choose to pay the extra and often exorbitant overheads that are required to say they are 'organic'
> 
> I looked this up - and you are right, it is allowed. But we have a number of beef farmer friends and none of them use it. So, like the pesticides & GMOs you'd almost have to go out of your way to find a cut of meat from an animal that had been treated with HGP.
> 
> The price of food seems to be a popular subject on this forum, so I'll put my two penn'orth in too.
> 
> In order to keep the cost of food down in New Zealand you need to shop outside the supermarkets, or keep an eye out for special offers.
> And for fruit and vegetables you need to shop at the markets, and buy produce that is in season. Don't expect to buy strawberries, tomatoes & asparagus in August or you'll pay through the nose. Buy them in December and they'll be really cheap.
> 
> And bear in mind - our cows and sheep do not live in big barns, are not pumped up with hormones, and are not fed corn to fatten them up until they have intestinal problems. They live all year round on green grass, and at worse are fed hay that the farmer often cut himself in the summer months.
> 
> And as I say, I speak from the experience of knowing a number of North Island beef and sheep farmers now.


This is great! Thanks for your added commentary. It does make me more hopeful to cater to my needs a little better. I'm pretty sick of going out of my way to find real food. It will be a nice change. Thanks again! Also, cool website!


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## Tyken

"For example, in US cities, a macdonalds can be found on virtually every corner. In Auckland, Mcdonalds could only be found every _other_ corner, or so.  (I'm joking. There aren't THAT many Mcdonalds in either country. Lol. Oh, and in NZ, Mcdonalds has LAMBburgers on the menu. ) But hopefully you get the point."

I love your quote because I read somewhere that NZ has more MacDonalds per capita then any other country in the world!! They are also the third fattest after the USA and Mexico!!

From personal experience I have stopped eating pork and chicken since I've been in NZ because of the way these areas are managed. They still have controversial cages for the pigs (unlike UK and Europe where cages was banned over 20 years ago!) and they raise their chickens in disgusting conditions and fill them full of steroids. I see that battery hen cages in the UK and Europe were banned from 2012 - it will never happen here. I buy eggs from free roaming hens but our local New World does not stock ethical chicken or pork but in the larger cities I think you can get "free farmed" meat. Beef and lamb are definitely the best choices but we don't eat lamb because we can't afford it! I think you will find that NZ has as many additives as any other westernised country and more so! They have quite a few that have been banned by the European Union!! 

Oh yes and New Zealand is green but only in colour!!!


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## MrsRose

Tyken said:


> I love your quote because I read somewhere that NZ has more MacDonalds per capita then any other country in the world!! They are also the third fattest after the USA and Mexico!!
> 
> From personal experience I have stopped eating pork and chicken since I've been in NZ because of the way these areas are managed. They still have controversial cages for the pigs (unlike UK and Europe where cages was banned over 20 years ago!) and they raise their chickens in disgusting conditions and fill them full of steroids. I see that battery hen cages in the UK and Europe were banned from 2012 - it will never happen here. I buy eggs from free roaming hens but our local New World does not stock ethical chicken or pork but in the larger cities I think you can get "free farmed" meat. Beef and lamb are definitely the best choices but we don't eat lamb because we can't afford it! I think you will find that NZ has as many additives as any other westernised country and more so! They have quite a few that have been banned by the European Union!!
> 
> Oh yes and New Zealand is green but only in colour!!!


'I love your quote because I read somewhere that NZ has more MacDonalds per capita then any other country in the world!! They are also the third fattest *after the USA *and Mexico!!'

Um...the McDonalds thing was a joke. Lol. But technically, if you _must _contest it, it was still accurate. The US still has the highest total number of mcdonalds restaurants of any nation in the world by far. And that's only one fast food chain. And if I'm not mistaken, fast food (as we know it today) had it origins in the United States as well. 

Conventional farming practices in both NZ and the UK _are _better than the US. And this is based on more than just "I read somewhere..." Nutrition is my primary area of study, and I have learned a great deal about agriculture, food safety, and food labeling as it pertains to the US...and in comparison to other developed nations throughout the world. If you do some studying in the area of US food and agriculture I think you'll be far more shocked and disgusted with food and corporate farming practices in the States. 
The US still "manufactures" cattle on large feedlot style corporate farms, feeds them corn instead of grass (GMO corn, by the way) and supplements them with antibiotics, hormones, and/or other not-so-healthy additives. Chickens are raised in dark, disgusting corporate sized cages with hundreds+ chickens crammed in together, never allowed to roam, living in their own waste matter, and fed GMO corn with additives to make them much larger than is natural, and tons of antibiotics to counter all that bacteria their living in. (these of course are examples of conventional farming, not organic, which accounts for the vast majority of meat sold in the US). That description does not even cover the mistreatment of animals, and cringe-worthy ways the food is then processed for distribution. With a population of over 300 million, there is a LOT of food to produce, and waiting on nature is just not an option according to corporate America.


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## Tyken

Hi MrsRose

Sorry I was joking too about the MacDonalds hence my exclamation marks - but I did "read" it somewhere so it must be true!!!!!!!!!!!!!! haha Of course the USA have a higher total number of MacDonalds than any where in the world (it is a huge country) but the statistic I "read" was per capita which is a much more accurate and you will see used a lot in NZ as the population is so small.

I do agree with you about the meat production industry and hence the reason why I am now almost vegetarian and one of the good things about NZ is you can grow your own meat if you have a lifestyle block. Can I ask where you will be living in NZ? I didn't mean to offend you with my flippant MacDonalds post because reading your posts we are in fact both "reading off the same page" with regard to worldwide farming methods. Sorry.


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## MrsRose

Tyken said:


> Hi MrsRose
> 
> Sorry I was joking too about the MacDonalds hence my exclamation marks - but I did "read" it somewhere so it must be true!!!!!!!!!!!!!! haha Of course the USA have a higher total number of MacDonalds than any where in the world (it is a huge country) but the statistic I "read" was per capita which is a much more accurate and you will see used a lot in NZ as the population is so small.
> 
> I do agree with you about the meat production industry and hence the reason why I am now almost vegetarian and one of the good things about NZ is you can grow your own meat if you have a lifestyle block. Can I ask where you will be living in NZ? I didn't mean to offend you with my flippant MacDonalds post because reading your posts we are in fact both "reading off the same page" with regard to worldwide farming methods. Sorry.



Oh goodness!! No problem at all!  And no apologies necessary! 


That is one thing that made me sad upon my visit to NZ (with regards to the larger cities in NZ anyways): That the American fast food and "cheap" food culture has spread all the way to NZ.  We stopped at a (Oh gosh, whats that other supermarket that is popular in NZ? Not New World...) grocery store in Auckland to get some groceries (duh, Lol.) and across the parking lot was a McDonalds. Quite possibly the largest McDonalds I'd ever seen. Haha. We stopped in to use the wifi and MY GOODNESS!!! It looked like a full size restaurant! 2 of the McDonalds we stopped at in the Auckland area had conference rooms in them! Haha! 

Perhaps its the unbeatable affordability of fast food that has NZers consuming so much? Or the convenience? That's certainly the case here in the States. Get a whole cheeseburger for just $1. Or get less than a pound of organic apples for the same. Most will choose the more filling, convenient, and inexpensive option. (although my argument is always that you still pay a high price sooner or later....either for healthy foods or high medical costs.


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## Vmorris22

MrsRose said:


> Oh goodness!! No problem at all!  And no apologies necessary!
> 
> 
> That is one thing that made me sad upon my visit to NZ (with regards to the larger cities in NZ anyways): That the American fast food and "cheap" food culture has spread all the way to NZ.  We stopped at a (Oh gosh, whats that other supermarket that is popular in NZ? Not New World...) grocery store in Auckland to get some groceries (duh, Lol.) and across the parking lot was a McDonalds. Quite possibly the largest McDonalds I'd ever seen. Haha. We stopped in to use the wifi and MY GOODNESS!!! It looked like a full size restaurant! 2 of the McDonalds we stopped at in the Auckland area had conference rooms in them! Haha!
> 
> Perhaps its the unbeatable affordability of fast food that has NZers consuming so much? Or the convenience? That's certainly the case here in the States. Get a whole cheeseburger for just $1. Or get less than a pound of organic apples for the same. Most will choose the more filling, convenient, and inexpensive option. (although my argument is always that you still pay a high price sooner or later....either for healthy foods or high medical costs.


This also makes me sad; however, when I went to Germany in 2008, I saw about two McDonald's, some Burger King's, etc. and this was before I became officially aware of the nasty food market and farming approach in America (in fact, I didn't start caring until I faced some serious medical problems due to GMOs) so we actually stopped and ate at McDonald's for a quick lunch. Now, if you know anything about Germany, they are VERY strict on their food. They do not allow GMOs to be "grown" or imported there. So you can guarantee you're eating the good stuff there. Well, I was surprised to see McDonald's, and my most predominant impression of the food was a positive one. 

It appears that the McDonald corporation actually serve good quality food in the other countries (I've had people traveling to other countries tell me they tasted a big difference at different country's McDonald's, too) and the crap food in America. I don't know why? Maybe it's because Americans are used to the greasy fake meat taste, or because our standards and violations are soooo low compared to other countries. But I'm assuming that the McDonald's in Auckland may have better quality and maybe even REAL meat, haha (and no, I'm not promoting McDonald's). The burger and fries I had in Germany tasted like a 5-star restaurant's burger. They also served beer there, lol. 

You said they have lamburgers; maybe the quality is restaurant quality? I don't know. Just an idea. I'm hoping that is the case anyways. I would hate for NZ to adopt our poor decisions in food.


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## Kimbella

Vmorris22 said:


> TML, thank you for the added information. You're right in saying that NZ doesn't totally exclude GMOs, for I have read about that. But changing from a country that doesn't label GMOs (There is a big debacle about Whole Foods lying about some products being GMO free when those products actually contained them) to a country that has high standards is a huge improvement. I take my time when it comes to grocery shopping and planning, so that's not a problem for me--I love to cook! I am aware that prices of food is MUCH higher in NZ, but I think MrsRose was trying to say that it wouldn't shock me THAT much, since I'm used to seeing a higher bill for higher quality of food. My husband and I are willing to pay extra money or the high quality food--especially since we both notice a huge difference in our health when we switched over to organic! Thanks for the input, everyone!


Hi VM,

Just be cautious with expectations--the thing that is going to be important is to remember that people that have visited and not yet moved here, don't yet have a full scope of what budgeting for monthly expenses will fully include, and how other expenses are going to round out and inflate your outgoing versus your incoming. When you are returning to the US from a sun drenched, fun filled visit, and you're not budgeting for actual long term life in NZ, it can be VERY easy to shrug off the high prices, minimize/rationalize them, or just turn a blind eye. Easy to do because it's not yet your real life living budget you are operating on, but instead a 'vacation' budget... so, just be aware for those that have or still do live in NZ, our experience with price shock is "real," meaning we are living with it (or did) and are giving you legitimate information based on long term experience. I'm not suggesting Rose isn't correct, only that you *really* need to be aware that the price differences are >considerable< and that there is a severely restricted choice in items, and literally little to no price wars because there is so little competition. This can be especially limiting if you live in one of the more far flung, rural areas. Also, meats here that are prepared, like sausage, fish & chips, etc., regularly have fillers of some sort in them. So, you will be paying full meat prices but the product may only be 65% to 70% actual meat--and unidentified fish from the corner fish & chips shop is often a small variety of shark. It tastes fine, but I'm just pointing out that being transparent about consumer products is not always on the up & up here, either. Most recently we've had a big international incident about our beloved Manuka honey being tainted and bulked up and out with syrups and such ... so, just be forewarned, sleight of hand and bait and switch is well and alive here as well. Farmers markets are considerably smaller than what you will be used to in the US (depending on where you move to); the prices can be somewhat less than the supermarket, but often they are either equal or even more in some cases. On top of the price of what's in the stores, you will be taxes the 15% GST at the check-out as well... so, the products are much higher, as is the tax on them. It is just important that you know that NZ is not like a little version of America circa 1950, but just "a little more expensive." It's much more expensive, and you have to be a savvy consumer to get *the* best deal, as they often aren't obvious. This information is not meant to degrade NZ, I LOVE it here and will NEVER leave, but just to point out that once you are here, you will permanently be paying NZ prices and working for NZ wages, and that balance can be tricky for those that don't already have a wad of money. I would suggest you go to the grocery websites we have here to do cost comparisons: Fresh Choice, New World, Countdown, Pak N Sav, Cosco (small chinese market). The home-wares places are: Briscoe's, Farmers, The warehouse; home improvement: Bunnings, Mitre10 Mega ... Just for some background on me: I've lived here for over 2 years, live in a very nice area of Christchurch, am married to a great kiwi-guy who is successful enough that I don't work; we maintain a 6-figure savings account buffer, and yet the prices *still* shock and awe me. If I did not have such a comfortable income, maintaining a similar lifestyle to what I had in the US would be close to being cost prohibitive. Best of luck!

Kim


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## Vmorris22

Kimbella,

Thank you for your post--I truly appreciate the honesty! I love to hear different people's experiences and opinions. Believe me, I'm not so naive to believe NZ is perfect; but, it certainly is better to hear that some of their methods are _better_ than America's in some aspects. I have mentally prepared my brain, as best as I can from afar, to adjust to the expenses and hardship I have heard so greatly about. But, my husband and I are not trying to immigrate to have more money, or to be materialistic people we are kinda developing into over here--but rather, we are moving for the culture, the lifestyle, and of course the scenery! I was born and raised in Oklahoma, so you can imagine I am very excited about the nature (and lifestyle change!). I love Colorado, and have heard NZ is far more exquisite. 

Anyways, thanks for the input! I just was just curious to know what I should expect as soon as I get there, and all of you have helped my curiousity!


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## Kimbella

Vmorris22 said:


> Kimbella,
> 
> Thank you for your post--I truly appreciate the honesty! I love to hear different people's experiences and opinions. Believe me, I'm not so naive to believe NZ is perfect; but, it certainly is better to hear that some of their methods are _better_ than America's in some aspects. I have mentally prepared my brain, as best as I can from afar, to adjust to the expenses and hardship I have heard so greatly about. But, my husband and I are not trying to immigrate to have more money, or to be materialistic people we are kinda developing into over here--but rather, we are moving for the culture, the lifestyle, and of course the scenery! I was born and raised in Oklahoma, so you can imagine I am very excited about the nature (and lifestyle change!). I love Colorado, and have heard NZ is far more exquisite.
> 
> Anyways, thanks for the input! I just was just curious to know what I should expect as soon as I get there, and all of you have helped my curiousity!


I'm glad to help. The thing that visitors may not be taking into account is the other daily/monthly living expenses and how they will effect your budget. A standard house phone line is about $50 a month and does not include calling outside the local area; energy prices and packs to choose from are dizzying in their numbers--and a $350 bill will also have the 15% gst added; cable tv/internet are not competitive, etc. My daughters junior high public school uniform and required accessories was almost $600 ... and that is just for 2 years of school -- primary uniforms are different, as are high school. So, there are other ongoing and significant costs to living here. It's no besmirch to NZ, it's just an honest appraisal of how things work here pricing wise. What you will find is that kiwis that know you on a personal level are kind, gracious, and generous; but as a consumer or purchaser you will be looked at for what money can be extracted from you. Even my husband is this way: business is very successful, we don't hurt for money. He relayed a business transaction that happened a few weeks back: a guy called from Queenstown (about a 5 hour drive from where we are), coordinated getting the product, said if we had it, he would drive up and get it depending on the quote price. My husband gave him the standard quote, the guy arrived in a Corvette. Afterwards my husband said if he had known what car the guy drove he would've charged him twice the amount! Aargh! Drove me nuts! But, that's really the way it works down here ... people outside your circle of intimacy/friends are seen as revenue streams (for businesses), and thus, you don't see a lot of companies slashing prices as a show of loyalty thanks, etc. In the grand scheme of things, it's no big deal as long as you are aware of what you're dealing with so that you can navigate the best deal for YOUR interests, while being fair to the business. On a personal level that's about the only thing that you'll need to be watchful and mindful of. Everything else here is pretty damn amazing! You will find that NZ is extraordinarily beautiful, it IS more stunning than Colorado. It is more stunning than any place I have ever been to. The only place that came close was Alaska, and I think what made Alaska a close competitor is that Alaska has wildlife that NZ does not. NZ has NO (native) free roaming land animals. In parts of "the bush" there are pigs, deer, even turkeys, but you could live your whole life here and never see a thing roaming the land (except rabbits and birds). The only "wild" roadside animal I have ever seen are rabbits; and carcasses of ferrets/stoats, and possums. At first it's disconcerting not seeing anything like a squirrel, chipmunk, etc., then you just get used to the land being mostly untouched by anything but livestock. Anyway, best of luck! I have the perfect life here, including 2 honeybee hives in the back yard and a mini orchard, composting system, garden, chickens, etc.; so it IS possible, even a scaled back version is totally viable because everything is here, resource wise, and organic self sustainment is fully encouraged!


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## Vmorris22

Kimbella said:


> I'm glad to help. The thing that visitors may not be taking into account is the other daily/monthly living expenses and how they will effect your budget. A standard house phone line is about $50 a month and does not include calling outside the local area; energy prices and packs to choose from are dizzying in their numbers--and a $350 bill will also have the 15% gst added; cable tv/internet are not competitive, etc. My daughters junior high public school uniform and required accessories was almost $600 ... and that is just for 2 years of school -- primary uniforms are different, as are high school. So, there are other ongoing and significant costs to living here. It's no besmirch to NZ, it's just an honest appraisal of how things work here pricing wise. What you will find is that kiwis that know you on a personal level are kind, gracious, and generous; but as a consumer or purchaser you will be looked at for what money can be extracted from you. Even my husband is this way: business is very successful, we don't hurt for money. He relayed a business transaction that happened a few weeks back: a guy called from Queenstown (about a 5 hour drive from where we are), coordinated getting the product, said if we had it, he would drive up and get it depending on the quote price. My husband gave him the standard quote, the guy arrived in a Corvette. Afterwards my husband said if he had known what car the guy drove he would've charged him twice the amount! Aargh! Drove me nuts! But, that's really the way it works down here ... people outside your circle of intimacy/friends are seen as revenue streams (for businesses), and thus, you don't see a lot of companies slashing prices as a show of loyalty thanks, etc. In the grand scheme of things, it's no big deal as long as you are aware of what you're dealing with so that you can navigate the best deal for YOUR interests, while being fair to the business. On a personal level that's about the only thing that you'll need to be watchful and mindful of. Everything else here is pretty damn amazing! You will find that NZ is extraordinarily beautiful, it IS more stunning than Colorado. It is more stunning than any place I have ever been to. The only place that came close was Alaska, and I think what made Alaska a close competitor is that Alaska has wildlife that NZ does not. NZ has NO (native) free roaming land animals. In parts of "the bush" there are pigs, deer, even turkeys, but you could live your whole life here and never see a thing roaming the land (except rabbits and birds). The only "wild" roadside animal I have ever seen are rabbits; and carcasses of ferrets/stoats, and possums. At first it's disconcerting not seeing anything like a squirrel, chipmunk, etc., then you just get used to the land being mostly untouched by anything but livestock. Anyway, best of luck! I have the perfect life here, including 2 honeybee hives in the back yard and a mini orchard, composting system, garden, chickens, etc.; so it IS possible, even a scaled back version is totally viable because everything is here, resource wise, and organic self sustainment is fully encouraged!


That's great! Thanks for the heads up! So is negotiating frowned upon there, or could we take a stab at it if we need to (I'm talking big purchases)?

I have heard about the wildlife situation, and I'm OK with that! I heard there are no snakes and that is amazing! I hate snakes. I can handle spiders, but not snakes--mainly because they are poisonous here. 

And your life there in NZ sounds perfect!!:thumb: We are also interested in doing bees, our own garden, and chickens! That's a pretty normal thing to do here, and I definitely wanted to give that a go there too. How much acreage do you have to do all of that on? My husband wants 3-5 acres, and from my research it kinda seems a bit hard to get (and expensive! I tried TradeMe). I don't mind just one acre, but is that enough, you think?


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## Kimbella

Vmorris22 said:


> That's great! Thanks for the heads up! So is negotiating frowned upon there, or could we take a stab at it if we need to (I'm talking big purchases)?
> 
> I have heard about the wildlife situation, and I'm OK with that! I heard there are no snakes and that is amazing! I hate snakes. I can handle spiders, but not snakes--mainly because they are poisonous here.
> 
> And your life there in NZ sounds perfect!!:thumb: We are also interested in doing bees, our own garden, and chickens! That's a pretty normal thing to do here, and I definitely wanted to give that a go there too. How much acreage do you have to do all of that on? My husband wants 3-5 acres, and from my research it kinda seems a bit hard to get (and expensive! I tried TradeMe). I don't mind just one acre, but is that enough, you think?


I would say that it's not frowned on, necessarily, but, money is *really* loved here... I can't adequately explain it, you'll just need to experience it first hand. But, the average kiwi is more likely to simply NOT sell, hold onto an item and then retry a sale in the future, than they are to drop the price on something just to get rid of it. A personal joke amongst our family and friends is about the kiwi interpretation of capitalism: think about the maximum that the market will bear as a price and add 25%. And this is something my kiwi connections laugh about! They are used to being gouged and "rorted" .. it still bugs me tho! 

Nope, no snakes here... no large wild land animals at all. The freakiest think we have here is called a Weta, which thankfully I've not personally encountered... blech!

We live on a 1/4 acre spot right in the city of Christchurch, but we are also involved in the small family sheep farm in the foothills of the southern alps... all free range, on many, many, many acres.. so we have a garden there as well... you can definitely do it on a small scale and be totally successful. The garden in my backyard is about 1/3 of the yard and the hives are against the fence... it faces away from my neighbors so nothing except our fruit tress are in their flight path.. works out totally fine. You will probably find getting land as a purchase difficult... prices are bubbling right now all over, and there is talk of disallowing immigrants who aren't permanent residents from buying property... in fact, it might have actually passed into law, I can't fully remember because it didn't affect me at all .... if all this sounds lifestyle stuff is similar to what you have there, then you will probably transition without much trouble! I can't remember who said it, but someone mentioned the climate on the N Island being good enough for year round gardening... this is partly true--but you will need to plant appropriately seasonal veggies... the N Island gets coooold, too, just not quite as cold as the south island. We are the closest land mass to Antarctica, and so both islands get polar blasts in the winter that will freeze the skin right off of you if you're not fully rugged up head to toe! Can be harsh for veggies, obviously. Good luck on your research and journey, I'm happy to help/answer any questions you have as a fellow american ex-pat!


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## Angou

I want to address a couple of things here and hope some of you may find it helpful. I'm a Kiwi, currently living in NZ, but have lived in other countries for considerable periods of time so I have some understanding of the price and food issues. 

Food choice is limited to greater or lesser extents depending on where you live in New Zealand. Supermarkets are controlled by two companies so even with different branding you can essentially be buying from the same company. Decisions about what supermarkets stock are made by head offices and are based solely on buying patterns in each town or city. This can limit choice in smaller populated areas. 

Genetically modified food is permitted to be sold here only after the food or ingredients have been tested. By law, anything that has been GM or contains GM ingredients must be labelled, ‘genetically modified’. There's very little GM anything in NZ but it is included in NZ food standards because our food standards are controlled by a joint Australian-New Zealand authority. 

Most beef and lamb sold here has a quality mark (it says "best of NZ beef and lamb" and/or "certified quality"). Angus beef is sold as a premium beef and carries its own quality mark. It is rare to find any beef or lamb in stores that hasn't been certified. Part of the certification process involves proving that there hasn't been any use of hormone growth promotants. 

The price of lamb, in particular, is high in NZ, as is the price of milk and other dairy products. The reason for this is simple- producers don't sell into the NZ market for prices less than they can get on the export market. NZ beef and lamb is often discounted overseas to build market share. That never happens in NZ where there is already a captive market. However, despite the price the quality is excellent. 

Someone mentioned sausages - by law they must contain no less than 500g/kg of fat free meat flesh. The percentages of all ingredients are labelled. 

Organic producers here go through a process that takes 2-3 years and can choose to become certified organic. The process involves eradicating chemical residues in soil as well as proving the growing, packing and handling processes. It's a robust process and isn't a case of, "plop a plant in the ground, use organic spray, and call it organic produce" as it is in some countries. Unfortunately, its a costly process and the premium charged for organic produce reflects that. 

In general, the quality of food here is excellent. Choice isn't what you will be used to but there are other advantages that make up for it. Most cities are within a day trip to orchards and farm gates. Farmers are permitted to sell raw milk at their gates. "Pick your own" vegetable and fruit gardens are plentiful. Having your own garden is easy and in most parts of the country you can grow fruit and vegetables year round. Plants are inexpensive and organic sprays and fertilizers are easy to find. Some cities permit you to keep chickens in backyards (most don't permit keeping roosters though). 

I hope this helps some of you. Feel free to ask me any questions.


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## Vmorris22

Angou said:


> I want to address a couple of things here and hope some of you may find it helpful. I'm a Kiwi, currently living in NZ, but have lived in other countries for considerable periods of time so I have some understanding of the price and food issues.
> 
> Food choice is limited to greater or lesser extents depending on where you live in New Zealand. Supermarkets are controlled by two companies so even with different branding you can essentially be buying from the same company. Decisions about what supermarkets stock are made by head offices and are based solely on buying patterns in each town or city. This can limit choice in smaller populated areas.
> 
> Genetically modified food is permitted to be sold here only after the food or ingredients have been tested. By law, anything that has been GM or contains GM ingredients must be labelled, ‘genetically modified’. There's very little GM anything in NZ but it is included in NZ food standards because our food standards are controlled by a joint Australian-New Zealand authority.
> 
> Most beef and lamb sold here has a quality mark (it says "best of NZ beef and lamb" and/or "certified quality"). Angus beef is sold as a premium beef and carries its own quality mark. It is rare to find any beef or lamb in stores that hasn't been certified. Part of the certification process involves proving that there hasn't been any use of hormone growth promotants.
> 
> The price of lamb, in particular, is high in NZ, as is the price of milk and other dairy products. The reason for this is simple- producers don't sell into the NZ market for prices less than they can get on the export market. NZ beef and lamb is often discounted overseas to build market share. That never happens in NZ where there is already a captive market. However, despite the price the quality is excellent.
> 
> Someone mentioned sausages - by law they must contain no less than 500g/kg of fat free meat flesh. The percentages of all ingredients are labelled.
> 
> Organic producers here go through a process that takes 2-3 years and can choose to become certified organic. The process involves eradicating chemical residues in soil as well as proving the growing, packing and handling processes. It's a robust process and isn't a case of, "plop a plant in the ground, use organic spray, and call it organic produce" as it is in some countries. Unfortunately, its a costly process and the premium charged for organic produce reflects that.
> 
> In general, the quality of food here is excellent. Choice isn't what you will be used to but there are other advantages that make up for it. Most cities are within a day trip to orchards and farm gates. Farmers are permitted to sell raw milk at their gates. "Pick your own" vegetable and fruit gardens are plentiful. Having your own garden is easy and in most parts of the country you can grow fruit and vegetables year round. Plants are inexpensive and organic sprays and fertilizers are easy to find. Some cities permit you to keep chickens in backyards (most don't permit keeping roosters though).
> 
> I hope this helps some of you. Feel free to ask me any questions.


Thank you! This certainly helped it. You answered all the questions I had running through my head! Most people outside of the US don't understand why this is important. It's mainly because they don't have to deal with poison food, because most countries actually care about their people's welfare! :yell: Here, I have to go out of my way to find all-natural fruits, veggies, and meat. Oh, and it's also illegal to sell raw milk in the US... :ban:

I appreciate everyone's input. I have another item to go on the NZ "pro" list. 

Oh, another question... I live in the middle of America and don't really have an idea of the price for fresh seafood (we get the frozen quality crap...unless it's catfish), about how much (NZD) would it be for fresh fish?


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## Kimbella

That will probably depend on where you wind up living (seafood cost). It's a little more expensive here in Chch than I expected, seeing as how we're seaside... coming from the SF Bay Area, I was assuming there would be fish markets (there are not). You'll be experiencing a different variety of fish than typical in US stores. Lots of yummy white fish, but the usuals are still expensive: salmon, prawns. Crab is not native to areas around Chch (except small little paddle crabs), and neither are prawns.. they're pricey as a result (and the only crab I've actually found to purchase was in a can in a chinese market). The upside is that you can grab a fish license and do surf casting seaside fishing and probably find success... I pay on average $10USD per pound for decent white fish, which is perfectly acceptable to my budget. You *will* need to adjust to the lack of choice that Americans are used to. I cannot understate enough that if you are coming from a "foodbasket" of the nation state (midwest or west coast), you *will* be initially disappointed at what is not at your fingertips year round. It doesn't mean NZ isn't "as good," just that it is hindered by its climate much more so than the US, and doesn't have the import power to keep prices low for food imports. You'll adjust after a year and know what is in season when, what you'll want to plant versus buy, etc. I plant corn every year because it is an expensive food here (compared to what *I'm* used to)... in the US they practically give it away during the summer!


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## Vmorris22

Kimbella said:


> That will probably depend on where you wind up living (seafood cost). It's a little more expensive here in Chch than I expected, seeing as how we're seaside... coming from the SF Bay Area, I was assuming there would be fish markets (there are not). You'll be experiencing a different variety of fish than typical in US stores. Lots of yummy white fish, but the usuals are still expensive: salmon, prawns. Crab is not native to areas around Chch (except small little paddle crabs), and neither are prawns.. they're pricey as a result (and the only crab I've actually found to purchase was in a can in a chinese market). The upside is that you can grab a fish license and do surf casting seaside fishing and probably find success... I pay on average $10USD per pound for decent white fish, which is perfectly acceptable to my budget. You *will* need to adjust to the lack of choice that Americans are used to. I cannot understate enough that if you are coming from a "foodbasket" of the nation state (midwest or west coast), you *will* be initially disappointed at what is not at your fingertips year round. It doesn't mean NZ isn't "as good," just that it is hindered by its climate much more so than the US, and doesn't have the import power to keep prices low for food imports. You'll adjust after a year and know what is in season when, what you'll want to plant versus buy, etc. I plant corn every year because it is an expensive food here (compared to what *I'm* used to)... in the US they practically give it away during the summer!


That is to be expected, I suppose. Seafood in Oklahoma is ridiculously expensive and it's nowhere near fresh. I grew up in OKC, the heart of the state, and we do not have nearly half of the food options as say Washington state would have (in any department, really). It's sloooooooowly getting better--just recently SOME stores started recognizing gluten allergies. Within the last two years we got two organic food stores... but there aren't loads of choices (I think that's why fast food is a HUGE thing here). You would think with all our farmland we would have an abundance of veggies and fruits, but that's not the case (all being exported, I'm sure). So having limited choices is really nothing new. I suppose that's good for me, I won't feel less spoiled...:tongue:


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## Kimbella

Vmorris22 said:


> That is to be expected, I suppose. Seafood in Oklahoma is ridiculously expensive and it's nowhere near fresh. I grew up in OKC, the heart of the state, and we do not have nearly half of the food options as say Washington state would have (in any department, really). It's sloooooooowly getting better--just recently SOME stores started recognizing gluten allergies. Within the last two years we got two organic food stores... but there aren't loads of choices (I think that's why fast food is a HUGE thing here). You would think with all our farmland we would have an abundance of veggies and fruits, but that's not the case (all being exported, I'm sure). So having limited choices is really nothing new. I suppose that's good for me, I won't feel less spoiled...:tongue:


I was quite spoiled in California then... an over abundance of inexpensive, good quality, organic and non organic foodstuffs year round... if you're already used to limits, it will definitely be easier for you then!


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## Angou

Kimbella is right about the fish. It's cheaper in cities where there is a port that fishing boats come into or where local fishermen supply direct to market. Fresh fish is usually available in supermarkets. Salmon here is very expensive compared to the US or Canada. It is not wild but is farm-grown and is primarily produced for the export market so the local market matches export prices. 

Shellfish are good buying and depending on where you live they can be there for the taking. Trout is not available for sale (it's not permitted to sell it) but is plentiful if you want to do your own fishing. It requires a license. Fishing in the sea, either from a beach or boat, does not require a license. No license is required for setting pots for crayfish (NZ lobster) however there are catch limits on all recreation fishing. 

Inland or in areas where there's no fishing port prices can be high. I often buy snapper, a lovely fish, for NZD$26 a kilo. It can go as high as NZD$32/kg. 

One of the weird things about NZ is that fishmongers really don't advertise. I lived where I am for two years before I managed to find out that there were two local fish wholesalers that sell to the public. When you get here ask every local you can about where to buy the best fish. If you go to a restaurant, ask them where they get their fish. It seems like fishmongers tend to tuck themselves away in places you would never expect to find a store and without advertising you would never know they were there. 

That's another quirk of NZ - wholesalers and producers often sell direct to the public but don't necessarily advertise the fact. When you are here get into the habit of taking a close look at buildings whenever you pass a food factory and, if in doubt about whether they sell to the public, ask.


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## Vmorris22

Angou said:


> Kimbella is right about the fish. It's cheaper in cities where there is a port that fishing boats come into or where local fishermen supply direct to market. Fresh fish is usually available in supermarkets. Salmon here is very expensive compared to the US or Canada. It is not wild but is farm-grown and is primarily produced for the export market so the local market matches export prices.
> 
> Shellfish are good buying and depending on where you live they can be there for the taking. Trout is not available for sale (it's not permitted to sell it) but is plentiful if you want to do your own fishing. It requires a license. Fishing in the sea, either from a beach or boat, does not require a license. No license is required for setting pots for crayfish (NZ lobster) however there are catch limits on all recreation fishing.
> 
> Inland or in areas where there's no fishing port prices can be high. I often buy snapper, a lovely fish, for NZD$26 a kilo. It can go as high as NZD$32/kg.
> 
> One of the weird things about NZ is that fishmongers really don't advertise. I lived where I am for two years before I managed to find out that there were two local fish wholesalers that sell to the public. When you get here ask every local you can about where to buy the best fish. If you go to a restaurant, ask them where they get their fish. It seems like fishmongers tend to tuck themselves away in places you would never expect to find a store and without advertising you would never know they were there.
> 
> That's another quirk of NZ - wholesalers and producers often sell direct to the public but don't necessarily advertise the fact. When you are here get into the habit of taking a close look at buildings whenever you pass a food factory and, if in doubt about whether they sell to the public, ask.


Excellent advice, thanks! Just one question. Why is it not permitted to sell trout?


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## Kimbella

Vmorris22 said:


> Excellent advice, thanks! Just one question. Why is it not permitted to sell trout?


I think it has something to do with it being such a *HUGE* sport fishing pastime...and they do not have trout farms here for some reason... salmon farms yes, trout farms no... altho they do have hatcheries, which release into the wild... not sure why this is.. I might ask hubby tonight.. every kiwi guy I know is a fishing fool.. including mine.


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## Angou

Vmorris22 said:


> Excellent advice, thanks! Just one question. Why is it not permitted to sell trout?


All trout in NZ is wild and is classified as a sports fish. The fishery is strictly managed to ensure that fishing is sustainable. Anyone fishing for trout must have a license (and inspectors do travel around checking on this), must fish in the season, and must adhere to catch limits (2-5 a day, with size regulations). The argument against allowing sales is that it would encourage people to fish, not just for the fun of it and for feeding themselves, but for the money they could make for the catch. Sports fishermen go fishing when they can. Commercial fisherman try to make as much money as they can and this could endanger the fishery.


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## Angou

Kimbella said:


> I think it has something to do with it being such a *HUGE* sport fishing pastime...and they do not have trout farms here for some reason... salmon farms yes, trout farms no... altho they do have hatcheries, which release into the wild... not sure why this is.. I might ask hubby tonight.. every kiwi guy I know is a fishing fool.. including mine.


Salmon aren't a wild fish here but NZ trout are. The hatcheries are used to ensure that the rivers are well-stocked and keeping the fishery sustainable. Fish stocks are very carefully managed (they even do sampling to count the number of trout in various areas). The reason trout farms aren't allowed is that fish farming carries risks and the risk of a disease taking hold in a farm then transferring into waterways is too big of a risk to take. 
People come from all over the world for the trout fishing so its a huge draw for tourism and, consequently, huge money at stake. 

It's a really fun sport and you don't need expensive gear for fly fishing. NZ trout taste wonderful (especially if you stuff them with a banana, wrap them in foil, and broil) so going out to catch dinner is something everyone should try at least once.


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## TML

Angou said:


> Salmon aren't a wild fish here but NZ trout are. The hatcheries are used to ensure that the rivers are well-stocked and keeping the fishery sustainable. Fish stocks are very carefully managed (they even do sampling to count the number of trout in various areas). The reason trout farms aren't allowed is that fish farming carries risks and the risk of a disease taking hold in a farm then transferring into waterways is too big of a risk to take. People come from all over the world for the trout fishing so its a huge draw for tourism and, consequently, huge money at stake. It's a really fun sport and you don't need expensive gear for fly fishing. NZ trout taste wonderful (especially if you stuff them with a banana, wrap them in foil, and broil) so going out to catch dinner is something everyone should try at least once.


Sounds yummy! I would never have considered cooking banana with fish- so thanks adding that tidbit


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## Barlea

I just wanted to kind of add a thought/question.

I am pretty sure the rBST hormone is banned there. Is that correct? It is the hormone given to dairy cows to increase their milk production. I avoid it like the plague here! 


Food is a part of the reason I want to leave the United States. It is hard to tell what really is in your food here, especially if you go out to eat. And the way politics are handled here currently, no real standards will be put in place anytime soon . I know no place is perfect, but as mentioned, a huge improvement in standards and labeling does make a huge difference!


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## Angou

Barlea said:


> I just wanted to kind of add a thought/question.
> 
> I am pretty sure the rBST hormone is banned there. Is that correct? It is the hormone given to dairy cows to increase their milk production. I avoid it like the plague here!


Yes, it's never been allowed in NZ. 

There is some very controlled use of hormonal growth promotants in beef and pork only but its highly unlikely you'd ever see any of this in shops. Supermarkets don't stock this kind of meat. Details are here if you are interested (that's a good site to browse around in for more info about what is used in food production too): Hormonal growth promotants (HGPs)


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