# Post Brexit rules - Schengen zone travel



## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

I think I have got the wrong end of the stick regarding post Brexit travel rules. I thought, even if on holiday, you could not freely travel across the various EU borders. IE go to Go to Portugal, drive across into Spain and then onto France for example. I thought border control would be stamping passports at each border crossing-

I am now told a UK citizen will be able to drive unhindered between Spain and Portugal because both those countries are Schengen countries.

Schengen works by allowing you to only go through border controls at the point you enter or exit the Schengen zone. So once landed in Portugal you can go through most of Europe without further checks (as it is all Schengen) 

Is this correct. I have no reason to doubt it is, but want to clarify. Also can they holiday in the EU for over 90 days etc?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Megsmum said:


> I think I have got the wrong end of the stick regarding post Brexit travel rules. I thought, even if on holiday, you could not freely travel across the various EU borders. IE go to Go to Portugal, drive across into Spain and then onto France for example. I thought border control would be stamping passports at each border crossing-
> 
> I am now told a UK citizen will be able to drive unhindered between Spain and Portugal because both those countries are Schengen countries.
> 
> ...


A British citizen can indeed move around unhindered throughout the Schenghen zone - but is still subject to the 90/180 day rule in the Schengen zone, but outside the country of residence.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Thanks totally misunderstood that rule then LOl


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

xabiaxica said:


> A British citizen can indeed move around unhindered throughout the Schenghen zone - but is still subject to the 90/180 day rule in the Schengen zone, but outside the country of residence.


That's right. You only get your passport stamped when entering the Schengen zone (and leaving it presumably).

Gibraltar will be entering the zone later this year so it will be interesting to see how that affects flights from the UK. An awful lot of people fly there to get to southwest Spain.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> That's right. You only get your passport stamped when entering the Schengen zone (and leaving it presumably).
> 
> Gibraltar will be entering the zone later this year so it will be interesting to see how that affects flights from the UK. An awful lot of people fly there to get to southwest Spain.


Oh yes! So landing on Gib will be counted towards the Schengen days!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I know it is predicted to be, but I don't think it is a done deal just yet that Gibraltar will join the Schengen zone. As far as I am aware discussions are still ongoing, not least about whether Gibraltar will accept Frontex officers having a role in border control at the airport and the port.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> I know it is predicted to be, but I don't think it is a done deal just yet that Gibraltar will join the Schengen zone. As far as I am aware discussions are still ongoing, not least about whether Gibraltar will accept Frontex officers having a role in border control at the airport and the port.


It's due to be ratified by the European Commission in July. There will be the usual Brexit-style squabbling and spatting by the Gibraltarians, but it will happen - it would be political suicide not to.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Countries are not allowed to have check points within I think 100 metres of the border. They also aren't really allowed to do routine checks. They can stop you and ask for ID away from the border. 

That's normally. Countries can suspend Schengen for events or other reasons. France for example did after a terrorist attack. 

But in normal times traveling within the Schengen zone is like traveling within any individual country.


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

Megsmum said:


> I thought border control would be stamping passports at each border crossing


Your misunderstanding would seem to go deeper, the Schengen area is one homogenous body with no physical borders between members territories therefore nowhere to be stopped or checked or have a passport even produced let alone stamped.


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## vianina (Feb 25, 2020)

So how is anyone going to know that a UK citizen with a residence permit for one Schengen country is not spending too much time in the rest of Schengen?


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

vianina said:


> So how is anyone going to know that a UK citizen with a residence permit for one Schengen country is not spending too much time in the rest of Schengen?


They won't but that's least of their worries, as people like that have economic and practical base in an EU country and aren't looking to work illegally or become a burden on the state elsewhere.


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## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

Joppa said:


> They won't but that's least of their worries, as people like that have economic and practical base in an EU country and aren't looking to work illegally or become a burden on the state elsewhere.


Correct, that is until they go to leave and get checked (if it happens)


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

Leave where and checked by whom? 

As mentioned there are no internal borders to be checked at and if you mean leave the Schengen area itself how will that flag up anything about where anyone has been and for how long?


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Every day's a school day. Never thought about the Schengen area before as it had to real relevance to us as residents of the EU.

So to educate myself I've been in the EU site and it says

*Rules
The Schengen zone includes the 26 countries that have signed the Schengen agreement, which allows citizens of member countries to travel within the zone freely, without passing through passport and border control. Each member country of the Schengen zone can issue Schengen visas.


A holder of a Uniform Schengen visa can travel to all 26 member countries of the Schengen*

So I take it from that on face value a visa is required to cross the border...but UK citizens will not require visas? 

How does this work for us shopping in Portugal.. which we do regularly?
*

*


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Some countries have visa waivers. North America,UK etc. Other countries require a visa.

Shopping in Portugal is a non issue. You drive/fly across the border. You go back.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Megsmum said:


> Every day's a school day. Never thought about the Schengen area before as it had to real relevance to us as residents of the EU.
> 
> So to educate myself I've been in the EU site and it says
> 
> ...


NO visa required for British & various other citizens visiting the Schengen zone. 

Each day that you spend in Portugal though, would be counted towards your 90/180 in the rest of Schengen.

Not sure how that can be checked, but that's the way it works.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

xabiaxica said:


> NO visa required for British & various other citizens visiting the Schengen zone.
> 
> Each day that you spend in Portugal though, would be counted towards your 90/180 in the rest of Schengen.
> 
> Not sure how that can be checked, but that's the way it works.


Ok so we remain in Spain 90/180 days doesn't count but entering France or Portugal does or doesn't for residents of Spain... we drive across a country lane in fact we lived thier for s while and had breakfast in Portugal and dinner in Spain 

If there are no border checks anywhere then ....I'm not interested in tourists etc , just our position


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Megsmum said:


> Ok so we remain in Spain 90/180 days doesn't count but entering France or Portugal does or doesn't for residents of Spain... we drive across a country lane in fact we lived thier for s while and had breakfast in Portugal and dinner in Spain
> 
> If there are no border checks anywhere then ....I'm not interested in tourists etc , just our position


As residents of Spain, we can obviously stay in Spain for as long as we want to.

However, popping over to Portugal, or France, even if just for the supermarket or lunch - each trip counts as one of the 90/180 days allowed in Schengen - even if you only stay an hour.


I'm pretty sure it was the same before Brexit, but of course as EU citizens, no-one would ever check our passports. 

You do need it to cross the border now.


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

The types of Schengen visas explained. 

Schengen Visa Types & Schengen Visa Validity


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

xabiaxica said:


> As residents of Spain, we can obviously stay in Spain for as long as we want to.
> 
> However, popping over to Portugal, or France, even if just for the supermarket or lunch - each trip counts as one of the 90/180 days allowed in Schengen - even if you only stay an hour.
> 
> ...


Well if we don't have passports checks all seems a bit of a sop. As I say never had a border check coming back to Spain.. interesting though thanks 
. I'm a bit behind lol.


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

xabiaxica said:


> You do need it to cross the border now.


To show to whom, where, and when exactly?


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## vianina (Feb 25, 2020)

MataMata said:


> To show to whom, where, and when exactly?


In those EU countries which require their own citizens to carry ID (eg Germany), other EU citizens always had to carry it too. Even in a country where carrying ID is not mandatory, you can be stopped and asked to prove your identity, which will be tricky if you crossed the border without ID. Given the potential for confusion between WA beneficiaries and other UK citizens, I’d suggest carrying the residence permit too, or a copy.


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

All true but does not not support xabiaxca's statement that "You do need it (passport) to cross the border".

For those contemplating country hopping I'd strongly suggest they not do it with an old green residencia but with a TIE.

The former is a grubby little piece of paper with no proof whatsoever of being authentic and in any case has no meaning to anybody outside of its country of issue, the TIE on the other hand conforms to EU design guidelines which means it will be immediately recognised pretty much everywhere and if necessary very probably machine readable too.

I don't think I need remind people of the difficulties some attempting to exit UK with green residencias encountered in the period immediately following Jan 1st, and that was in a country where their native tongue was spoken!


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

MataMata said:


> All true but does not not support xabiaxca's statement that "You do need it (passport) to cross the border".
> 
> For those contemplating country hopping I'd strongly suggest they not do it with an old green residencia but with a TIE.
> 
> ...


As I said, moving around the Schengen zone one isn't likely to have the passport checked - but that doesn't mean that it should be left at home.


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## vianina (Feb 25, 2020)

MataMata said:


> All true but does not not support xabiaxca's statement that "You do need it (passport) to cross the border".
> 
> For those contemplating country hopping I'd strongly suggest they not do it with an old green residencia but with a TIE.
> 
> ...


For what it's worth, there was some old EU case law on the right of Union citizens to cross borders even without a passport or national ID, since the right arises from the person's status and not from the document. I cannot find the reference now, unfortunately. But any such right was lost with Brexit, therefore in order to go anywhere in Schengen, including crossing Schengen internal borders, we do technically need to carry ID to prove that we are not irregular. At the same time, you are right that they can't do regular border checks. But all other types of check are fair game.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

Once the covid crisis is over, in 99.9% of cases, UK citizens with Spanish residency can cross internal Schengen borders without showing passport, but there will be occasions when passport is required, such as when checking into a hotel or apartment, or conducting some financial transactions. 90-in-180 days in the rest of Schengen area is also a non-issue in 99.9% of times, except when you come to the attention of the authorities such as breaking the law (such as motoring), falling victim to a crime etc, when your overstay may come to light and it's up to you to demonstrate you haven't overstayed, such as showing travel tickets and accommodation receipts, and nor for them to prove you have. Overstay may also invalidate your insurance cover.


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## vianina (Feb 25, 2020)

Joppa said:


> In 99.9% of cases, UK citizens with Spanish residency can cross internal Schengen borders without showing passport, but there will be occasions when passport is required, such as when checking into a hotel or apartment, or conducting some financial transactions. 90-in-180 days in the rest of Schengen area is also a non-issue in 99.9% of times, except when you come to the attention of the authorities such as breaking the law (such as motoring), falling victim of a crime etc, when your overstay may come to light and it's up to you to demonstrate you haven't overstayed, such as showing travel tickets and accommodation receipts, and nor for them to demonstrate you have. Overstay may also invalidate your insurance cover.


Something that is unclear to me is whether the Passenger Name Record database could be used to identify this type of overstayer. Anyone know?


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

vianina said:


> Something that is unclear to me is whether the Passenger Name Record database could be used to identify this type of overstayer. Anyone know?


Passenger database is an incomplete record, esp when you change flights on a new ticket (not on the same reservation). Until ETIAS is up and running, it's difficult to track individual movement in and out of Schengen.


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