# House Purchase Stateside



## coolbadger (Sep 17, 2008)

Good morning everyone. We are planning to move to Florida in 2009. Our daughter is married to an American and they have a son. Our daughter will shortly become an American citizen and we will then be applying to join her.

My questions:

1. House Purchase

We would like to purchase our American home shortly but are aware we can only buy a 'holiday' home. When we receive our permanent residents visa can we use this as our main dwelling?

2. Bank Account

We will be buying our new home cash but will obviously need a bank account for recurring bills etc. How can one get a bank account without a social security number?

3. Social Security Number

Can you buy a house without a social security number? If it is used as a holiday home and 'sub-let' then would taxes have to be paid in the US? As such surely a social security number is needed?

4. Health Insurance

We wish to purchase Health Insurance to run from when we arrive. Any tips as to what to look for and what to avoid? Ultimately this will come through employment but I do not want to be medically caught-out whilst job seeking.

Many thanks to all. I am sure more questions will follow in due course!

Best wishes

Richard


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

1. Actually, you can buy a house in the US no matter what your immigration status is. (Especially if you're planning on paying cash!)

2. Although most banks will ask you for a social security number, you don't absolutely have to have one to open a bank account. In your case, you will probably need (or want to) ask for a TIN (taxpayer identification number) for the time you are waiting for your immigration paperwork. This looks just like a social security number and gives the bank a way to report any earnings or "suspicious activity" on your account to the Feds.

3. If you are going to let out the house, you'll definitely need a TIN while you're still resident overseas - if only to file your non-resident tax return reporting the rental income. I'm not sure what happens to the TIN when you apply for your social security number on arrival (i.e. whether they can just "convert" the number, or if you get a brand new number).

4. Health insurance is horrifically expensive in the US if you're buying a single policy. For that interim period, you may want to consider some sort of high-deductible "major medical" policy that would pay for hospitalization or catastophic illness only, assuming you don't normally need or want to consult with doctors on a regular basis. That way you're covered for really huge bills, but pay for the routine stuff yourself. If it's just for a few months while you look for work, it may not be too bad.

But I'd be careful about your timetable. Once your daughter has her citizenship and can sponsor you, it could still be a long wait before the visas come through - measured in years rather than months. But fatbrit has much more information about this than I do.
Cheers,
Bev


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## synthia (Apr 18, 2007)

When you get insurance to cover you while you are visiting, be sure it includes evacuation insurance. Most policies have an upper limit, and if it is too low, you could end up paying a lot.

I feel I should explain 'a lot', ever since I saw a post from someone who was horrified that her friend had to pay $15 to visit a doctor. $15 is what you might pay when you have insurance, and $20 for your primary physician and $40 for a speicalist is more likely.

I broke my ankle almost ten years ago. If I hadn't had insurance it would have cost me $45,000 for the emergency room visit, hospital stay, rehab facility, home health visits and equipment, medication, and follow-up visits. As it was, I had to pay for several things anyway, like the wheelchair vehicle transport to and from doctor's visits, and $15 co-pay for physical therapy, and co-pays for my prescriptions after I left the hospital.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Synthia raises a good point with the evacuation insurance. You need to consider whether this is worthwhile or not depending on your situation. 

If you are still covered by your national health insurance "back home" it can be a good thing to have. Basically, it means that they won't treat you with all the fancy (and expensive) US stuff, but rather will get you to a point where you can be evacuated back to your home country, where the national health will take care of you.

However, if you are no longer covered by your national health (or have no "back home" to be evacuated to) you may want to reconsider. When you get to that point, check on the terms of your national insurance coverage and think about whether you'd want to be shipped back "home" should a catastrophe befall you.
Cheers,
Bev


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## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

Medical Air Lift Services | AirMed International


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## Fatbrit (May 8, 2008)

coolbadger said:


> We would like to purchase our American home shortly but are aware we can only buy a 'holiday' home. When we receive our permanent residents visa can we use this as our main dwelling?


You can buy any home you like -- there's no difference between a holiday home or a main dwelling. Now is a buyer's market but I'm not sure we've hit rock bottom yet. Hope you're a cash buyer -- US mortgages are difficult at the moment, even with an expected 40% down as a non-resident.



coolbadger said:


> We will be buying our new home cash but will obviously need a bank account for recurring bills etc. How can one get a bank account without a social security number?


No requirement for a social security number for a bank account. But it is difficult to open an account in less you're there in person. I'll leave it up to you to guess which bank isn't going bust. Note that only your first $100k are insured.



coolbadger said:


> Can you buy a house without a social security number? If it is used as a holiday home and 'sub-let' then would taxes have to be paid in the US? As such surely a social security number is needed?


When you submit your first tax return for income off the property, you will apply for an ITIN. This is the only time you can apply for one. When you finally get a SSN as permenant residents, write the IRS canceling the ITIN.



coolbadger said:


> We wish to purchase Health Insurance to run from when we arrive. Any tips as to what to look for and what to avoid? Ultimately this will come through employment but I do not want to be medically caught-out whilst job seeking.


Try BCBS for general health insurance. Note that under an individual policy, pre-existing conditions will be excluded. From what you've wrote though, maybe a catastrophic policy alone would suffice? A good, local broker is often worth their weight in gold since the sheer complexity of the policies available is migraine inducing.


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## Fatbrit (May 8, 2008)

Bevdeforges said:


> In your case, you will probably need (or want to) ask for a TIN (taxpayer identification number) for the time you are waiting for your immigration paperwork


The only time you can apply is with your tax return.



Bevdeforges said:


> I'm not sure what happens to the TIN when you apply for your social security number on arrival (i.e. whether they can just "convert" the number, or if you get a brand new number).


You apply for a social security number, then write the IRS and cancel your ITIN when you've got the SSN. The numbers are the same format but different.



Bevdeforges said:


> But I'd be careful about your timetable. Once your daughter has her citizenship and can sponsor you, it could still be a long wait before the visas come through - measured in years rather than months. But fatbrit has much more information about this than I do.


The daughter can file the I-130 straight after the oath ceremony. There is no wait for a visa number, so expect the regular wait of around 6 to 12 months (depending on embassy) if processed outside the US for them to push the pieces of paper around.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Fatbrit said:


> The only time you can apply is with your tax return.


I'm not so sure about that. I know I am supposed to be able to get an ITIN for my husband through the IRS office at the local Consulate here in Paris. And, in fact, if I want to declare him as a dependent on my US tax returns or even "properly" list him as my spouse on my return , I have to get him the ITIN before I can file. But I chose not to register him with the IRS, since he is not subject to US taxes and I'd prefer to keep it that way.

(ITIN) Individual Taxpayer Identification Number Application Guide is the official information and basically you can apply at any embassy or consulate that has an IRS office.
Cheers,
Bev


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## JimAtJaxtr (Sep 5, 2008)

As far as American health insurance companies, you might research Aetna (Aetna - Health, dental, pharmacy, group life, disability and long-term care insurance benefits.), United Health Care (www.uhc), and Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Florida (BCBSF). They'll give you a flavor of what the market is like for health care, and I'm pretty sure the three (definitely on the last) are in Florida.


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## Fatbrit (May 8, 2008)

Bevdeforges said:


> I'm not so sure about that. I know I am supposed to be able to get an ITIN for my husband through the IRS office at the local Consulate here in Paris. And, in fact, if I want to declare him as a dependent on my US tax returns or even "properly" list him as my spouse on my return , I have to get him the ITIN before I can file. But I chose not to register him with the IRS, since he is not subject to US taxes and I'd prefer to keep it that way.
> 
> (ITIN) Individual Taxpayer Identification Number Application Guide is the official information and basically you can apply at any embassy or consulate that has an IRS office.
> Cheers,
> Bev


The website you give is not an official site, Bev! In fact I'd go so far as to suggest it's a site you should avoid. The only time you can get the ITIN is when you file your tax return. PERIOD!


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Fatbrit said:


> The website you give is not an official site, Bev! In fact I'd go so far as to suggest it's a site you should avoid. The only time you can get the ITIN is when you file your tax return. PERIOD!


Whoops, you' re right - I clicked on the wrong link initially. This is the IRS one: Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN)

But there are some exceptions to the rule that you must attach a US tax return to your application. One of the more notable exceptions here is when you are asked to get an ITIN by a bank for purposes of identification of the account - and you have passive income subject to withholding or are subject to treaty benefits.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Fatbrit (May 8, 2008)

Bevdeforges said:


> Whoops, you' re right - I clicked on the wrong link initially. This is the IRS one: Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN)
> 
> But there are some exceptions to the rule that you must attach a US tax return to your application. One of the more notable exceptions here is when you are asked to get an ITIN by a bank for purposes of identification of the account - and you have passive income subject to withholding or are subject to treaty benefits.
> Cheers,
> Bev


There are. But rental property income (the OP's dilemma) is not one of them.


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## synthia (Apr 18, 2007)

It depends on how the rental income will be received. If it is going into a bank account, then it might be.


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## Fatbrit (May 8, 2008)

synthia said:


> It depends on how the rental income will be received. If it is going into a bank account, then it might be.


Guys! You're making this all so complicated! File the tax return and apply for the ITIN. The IRS BTW is funny about issuing them. Why wind them up by trying to take over their sandpit?


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Fatbrit said:


> Guys! You're making this all so complicated! File the tax return and apply for the ITIN. The IRS BTW is funny about issuing them. Why wind them up by trying to take over their sandpit?


Fatbrit, I think it also may depend on your current place of residence. It seems to be much easier to get an ITIN through a consulate IRS office. If you're still resident outside the US, it seems to be easier to fall into one of the categories where you don't need to be filing a tax return to get the ITIN. (Makes sense - if you're resident in the US you "should" have or be eligible for a regular social security number and no wonder the IRS is wary of ITIN applications originating in the US.)
Cheers,
Bev


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## synthia (Apr 18, 2007)

ITINs are issued by Social Security, according to the IRS website. It also says that there are instutions, including financial institutions and schools, that can assist in getting an ITIN.


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## Fatbrit (May 8, 2008)

synthia said:


> ITINs are issued by Social Security, according to the IRS website. It also says that there are instutions, including financial institutions and schools, that can assist in getting an ITIN.


No -- they're issued by the IRS. And if the OP buys a house and receives taxable rental income from it before s/he qualifies for a ssn, s/he meeds to submit the application for the ITIN with their first tax return.

From a historical perspective they're interesting. Before the Reagan amnesty of 86/87, anyone could walk into a social security office and get a social security card and number. This changed with the amnesty, and that's why the ITIN came about since there a people who don't qualify but need to pay tax. Somehow there was this weird belief that this SSA would successfully police the immigration issue.


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## synthia (Apr 18, 2007)

But where on the official site does it say that you can't get an ITIN until you are ready to file taxes. If I were a citizen of another country and wanted, for any reason, to have a brokerage or bank account in the US, I would not be eligible for a social security number. Now, if I have an account with substantial funds in it and withdraw over $10,000 in cash from a bank while visiting the US, I would come under the reporting laws (RICO?). The bank would be required to report this to the IRS. Are such transactions exempt from the reporting laws until the owner files a tax return?


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## Fatbrit (May 8, 2008)

synthia said:


> But where on the official site does it say that you can't get an ITIN until you are ready to file taxes. If I were a citizen of another country and wanted, for any reason, to have a brokerage or bank account in the US, I would not be eligible for a social security number. Now, if I have an account with substantial funds in it and withdraw over $10,000 in cash from a bank while visiting the US, I would come under the reporting laws (RICO?). The bank would be required to report this to the IRS. Are such transactions exempt from the reporting laws until the owner files a tax return?


The instructions on when you can apply for the ITIN are written on the application form. 

I seem to think that most banks won't open a broker's account for you if you don't have a SSN -- my ex was Series 6 and 7 registered and hers certainly wouldn't because I remember her sulking for a week when she lost a big commission because of this very issue. I also know that IngDirect and some of the other online banks won't do you a savings account without a SSN because I read of H4-ers whining about it.

I have no idea about the inner workings of the reporting requirements and am not inclined to go and read them. OP should open a regular checking account to make life easy, then submit the ITIN application with the first tax return should they take rental income from the property. They can get the fancy stuff (if they want it) after they get their SSNs.


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## billd (Sep 25, 2008)

*Detailed information provided with W-7*



synthia said:


> But where on the official site does it say that you can't get an ITIN until you are ready to file taxes.QUOTE]
> 
> Form W-7 : (www).irs.gov(slash)pub(slash) irs-pdf(slash)fw7.pdf
> Page 2 states: "Your application must include all of the following... Your original, completed tax return(s) for which the ITIN is needed... There are exceptions to the requirement to include a U.S. tax return."
> ...


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## coolbadger (Sep 17, 2008)

Good morning everyone and thanks very much for all the replies. 

1. Bank account

I tried to open a local Florida bank account and they would not accept me without the Social Security or ITIN number. They DO open accounts for overseas students but take the number from the visa stamped in their passports.

I then tried the Bank of Amercia and opened an account with ease. No problem at all as long as I had ID and my passport.

2. I have also been house hunting! I was very surprised at the timescales involved in buying. As a cash buyer the completion in my case could have been 14 days. Bit of a difference to the 3 - 4 months in the UK.

This raised a new problem. House Insurance. My Realtor is chasing down deals from companies that will insure an 'empty' house. We have found willing companies simply because my daughter lives locally and will be checking the house on a regular basis.

I am just waiting for the quotes to arrive.

But you are expected to put a $1000 deposit down so these funds must be available. Also if you are a cash buyer they will require proof from the bank that the funds are available.

I got a bit tied by this as I need to transfer funds out of an online savings account into my Bank of America account. My 'codes' are in the UK so I was stuck there.

The speed of everything really caught me out. So be prepared!


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## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

You are not putting a deposit down but "earnest money". You do not go through with the purchase according to contract this money goes to the seller.

14 days is reasonable. We had a seller out of the house within 24 hours. They wanted out. I wanted in:>)

"Proof of funds" is pretty standard. Buyers who need to finance normally get pre-approved for a certain amount for a certain time period. Generally 90 days.

A house empty for 30 days or more is considered abandoned. This is an issue when selling a house but already living elsewhere.

Good luck! Will we get invitations to your house warming?


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## synthia (Apr 18, 2007)

Abandoned in what sense? Plenty of snowbirds leave their houses for six months at a time. However, empty houses are a temptation for thieves or vandals, so having it empty for a period of time will doubtless raise the insurance rates. I think most snowbirds have been living in their houses for along time, so the insurance company doesn't know the house is empty. In your case, they know.


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## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

You might be surprised about the amount of information insurance companies have access to. From history of a residence to mortgage/closing/... Just check "snow bird" rates versus actual residents:>)


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