# SA Haters



## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

I love it when this gets brought up, along with a few other lines,
so seeing this Forum does'nt have an Introduce yourself thread let me try and answer a few pertinent Statements.

"What are expats doing on Forums like these when they no longer have a stake in the country and live somewhere else,why dont they get on with their lives"
Common question.

I am a South african Citizen who still owns business and investments in South africa, I pay my Income taxes and Rates and taxes on time and have every right, in fact more right than some of you living in SA tocriticise where I see fit.

"Why do they hate SA so much"
I, and I'm sure I speak for many critical posters dont hate SA how can you hate a Country?
I think SA had the greatest promise of all and I personally welcomed the new 
Democratic SA in 1994.
It was wonderful, at last we could go forward, without a civil war, without further bloodshed!
I think Nelso Mandela's speech was fantastic as was the promise, "Never again!"
Our New Constitution wss fantastic, another world leader!

So no, I dont hate SA!
I do hate whats being done to it.
I do hate the fact that greed, Corruption and a new groupof Grasping Criminals have replaced the old apartheid regime, but are doing pretty much the same.

"Why dont they stop harping about Crime, we can all read the media"
I have a mother and family and friends that still live in SA.
The Multi-Racial Govt of SA, the ANC, have failed to maintain Law and Order in SA.
The only thing that forces them to something about a problem is International exposure of their shortcominings,especially in terms of Crime and crime prevention and Justice.
So if we all shut up about it, tell me what makes you believe they will do more about it than they have done in the past, which has been such a spectacular failure.

Now the worst insult you can offer a South African.

"Am I a racist?"
What colour am I?
What gives you the right to call me a racist?
Show me a single posting that gives you grounds for that insult?
because I am insisting on an apology.

Lastly, you guys amuse me.
ybarnes and Americano, I lived in Sa for 54 years, for 44 of those I had one car stolen, one burglary, a couple of irritating stolen car radios etc...

As to the rest,The fastest way to show your lack of knowledge is to post as you do, wow! yank,3 weeks and no crime! golly gosh!
If any of you really want to discuss the issue. do so, but try and be adult about it, keep personal insults out of it.


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## Martinw (Jan 2, 2009)

Seeing that I was "ordered"not to reply on the other thread(which I sort of disobeyed" here is my take on "SA Haters"

Just like I will maybe never really be a true Aussie( my kids prob will) and can not really understand how they think, so will a lot of other foreigners never really be South Africans and know how "WE"work. And yes that includes people that are sitting in another country. My own personal opinion:
No-one else loved their own country like a South Africans loved South Africa( you know the one where every moms baby is the prettiest)Now in saying that. Do people really think that the majority of “South Africans” want to sit in a foreign country? A country where nothing is the same where you grew up all your life; A country that is not as pretty a South Africa; ( Lets face it Australia is a good country, but look at a satellite image and the truth is quite obvious about the red outback!) No none of us would probably not have been here or there had not been for a reason. That reason:
Do we hate South Africa? NO X100000 Like Daxk said. We hate what it has become, and what is happening there. South Africa will always be in our blood. It is who we are. But we all felt that there was no future for “our children” We were tired of locking ourselves up at night(and day) and the criminals has free reign to terrorise. Tired of making sure of this, that and all the other. Don’t know about other countries, but although a lot of people say the “filth in South Africa” is in the cities and no one has to go there. Well you now what, our suburbs here are clean and the cities – not covered in filth. Is your city not part of your life and not just the “maintained” outskirts( I still have my doubts about that one)
So for any one to come on here and call us SA HATERS has got no idea, clue what they are talking about. Majority of people on this forum are on here to tell people the truth, give them the other side you never get to see on the news, and just maybe if someone listened, thought about it and hopefully make a better, decision perhaps, or are more aware of what is going on than some “SA LOVER” that has only been there for a while, “and will never prob be a TRUE South African” telling them that all is well. There is no crime, there is no filth and all these wonderful things, that might give an unsuspected person the WRONG picture of South Africa.

We don’t hate South Africa, but what People has allowed it to become. Accept the truth for what it is.


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## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

Like Daxk, I still have business interestes in South Africa, regularly visit "home" both to visit friends & family and for business. These forums are areas that people visit to gain opinions on South Africa from people who have experience. If those of you who have recently moved there, think that living in SA is fantastic - well that is just fine! However, because some of us who have lived through some of the more traumatic times, happen to think the opposite is true, well that is our stance! The readers of the forum will have to make their own minds up.

You can't hate a country - that is a pathetic thing to say. We all hate what has been done, what is being done and what will be done to a great country.


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## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

For those of you who think that this forum is doinated by SA haters, read the following article, published in the UK Mail on Sunday, by Peter Hitchin - a renowned UK journalist. And when you have read it, maybe, just maybe, you will wake up and smell the coffee. The full transcript can be found by following the lnk at the bottom.

By PETER HITCHENS
Last updated at 3:21 AM on 29th March 2009


Imagine how you would react if Gordon Brown opened and closed his election rallies by bursting into a song called Bring Me My Machine Gun, swaying and jigging to the hypnotic chorus of this menacing ditty.
And how would you feel if the Prime Minister were alleged to be taking campaign money from Colonel Gaddafi; faced 783 counts of fraud, racketeering, tax evasion and corruption which somehow never came to court; and had been acquitted of rape while his fearsome supporters mobbed the courthouse?
Then ponder how you would despair if, despite all these things, Mr Brown’s party was certain to win the election whatever he did or said.
If you can picture all this happening here, then you have an inkling of the horrible process South Africa is now going through. Except it is much, much worse.
This fast-approaching catastrophe is a source of shame and apprehension to millions of honest people, white and black, in South Africa itself.
It is also a tragedy for Africa as a whole, a continent hungry for any reason to hope. And it is grave news for the civilised world, which needs no more failed states.
Yet I can promise you I will be accused of alarmism and pessimism for saying so, and quite possibly of ‘racism’ too.
Why? All the soppy admirers of Nelson Mandela - especially the BBC - gave the new South Africa a free pass when apartheid ended 15 years ago.They wanted to believe this complicated and important nation had become a sort of heaven on Earth where all tears were dried and all problems solved.

Mr Mandela himself, personally decent but politically ineffectual and naive, served as both figurehead and figleaf for the new order. The world ignored or forgave his continuing friendships with the world’s worst despots, and the fraudulent bungling that surrounded him.

Once, South Africa dominated the nightly news for weeks on end. Now the liberal media barely mention it. Why not? Because post-apartheid South Africa is a failure.

You don’t hear about the terrifying crime. You don’t hear about the pestilence of corruption, or the absurd purchase of needless submarines and aircraft for a country with no serious enemies except its own elite.

There is a little about AIDS, but nothing like as much as there should be, given the acres of graves that commemorate the government’s moronic policies, of denial and folk remedies (including beetroot).

Electricity blackouts - the invariable sign of a country on the slide - are now frequent. 

In the coming weeks, South Africa seems to me to be taking several definite steps towards its cold, shocking awakening - as a full member of the Third World.The man who will lead it there is called Jacob Zuma. Remember the name. You are going to hear a lot more of it.

On April 22 he will become President of one of the world’s most important countries. Comrade Zuma, as his supporters know him, certainly is not dull. And South Africa will not be dull either when he takes over.

Many fear it will rapidly become a lawless kleptocracy when he comes to power, which he will do after a hopelessly one-sided and rather crooked election

A picture dated 14 February 2003 shows Winnie Madikizela-Mandela, ex-wife of former South African president Nelson Mandela, in Cape Town. Winnie Madikileza-Mandela, was found guilty 23 April 2003 of fraud and theft involving about one million rand (131,000 dollars / 119, 000 euros)

The grisly Winnie Mandela, a convicted fraudster with a creepy past, is number five on the ANC’s parliamentary election list, despite the fact that as a criminal she is legally banned from being an MP. She is expected to be a minister in any Zuma government.

Zuma’s old friend and business partner, Schabir Shaik, has just been released early - on medical grounds, although almost nobody believes this - from a 15-year sentence imposed in 2006 for fraud and corruption, including a payment to Zuma himself.

Jackie Selebi, the National Police Commissioner, is famous for asking, ‘what’s all the fuss about?’ when taxed with the country’s appalling levels of crime and violence.

He is currently suspended, accused of having - yes - a ‘generally corrupt relationship’ with a convicted drug smuggler and also ‘defeating the ends of justice’.

The once-admired Scorpions, a police anti-corruption squad symbolising the country’s determination not to follow the rest of Africa into corrupt squalor, have been disbanded.

So the approaching enthronement of this sinister, populist one-time Zulu herd-boy really ought to mark the moment when South Africa has to stop dreaming about rainbows and miracles, and recognise that experience is usually a better guide to the future than hope.

Zuma is attractive in some ways. He has made his way up from utter poverty. He is a fighter, a keen and hypocrisy-free lover of women and a cunning charmer.
He makes no pretence of being Westernised, and delights in wearing traditional Zulu dress, leopardskin, loincloth and all. He has an excellent singing voice, as I can testify.

South Africa’s largest tribe are a proud fighting people, and Zuma will not be a mild leader, as Mandela and Thabo Mbeki, his two forerunners, were.

At first sight he is the jovial double of the Michelin man, bald, bespectacled and wide-mouthed. As he campaigns, he wears a Nelson Mandela T-shirt (his aides sport Jacob Zuma shirts) and a bizarre black leather cowboy hat.

I watched him electioneering in and around the bleak and stony town of Springbok, in South Africa’s remote and conservative North West.

He arrived for a carefully staged visit to Elizabeth Cloete, a 49-year-old who dwells on an arid hillside in a hovel made of plastic sheets, and lives by scrabbling through rubbish dumps looking for saleable scrap - a trade that brings her about £6 a week.

Her neighbourhood is the bitter end of rural South Africa, many of whose inhabitants exist, in a permanent haze of cheap drink or drugs, defeated and without hope.

Zuma must know that places like this, and their still crueller and more violent urban equivalents, are evidence of the ANC’s failure, in 15 years of unrestricted power, to keep its ambitious promises to the poor.

He actually admitted later that day: ‘We came here to see the conditions. The conditions are extremely bad.’

But when I tried, courteously, to speak to him on the spot, having failed to obtain an interview over several weeks, he brushed me aside. Worse, I was menacingly reproved by an ANC apparatchik, outraged that I should dare to question the next President.

I was also upbraided by a smug, dreadlocked member of the Johannesburg Press corps who sneered at me, ‘This is Africa, man, we do things differently here.’ They certainly do.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1165473


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## TheLastBaron (Mar 27, 2009)

Well, maybe instead of griping so much from afar about what RSA has become, wouldn't the responsible thing be for all of you to _return_ to your country and start _fixing _it? If RSA is as bad as all of you claim (mind you, um, all 3 or 4 I have found so far here), then why are many, many people moving there these days? Perhaps, to put it in a nutshell, it's because things are not rosy _anywhere_ anymore. And throwing up your hands and saying "it changed" is a cheap shot. If you tried to change it and were made to leave (like I was the U.S. under Bush) or if you tried to change it and were met with apathy and total resignation (as here in Germany), then fine. But to leave, then sit back and take cheap shots from afar at everyone else willing to go to the RSA and give it a whirl is cowardly, low, and deserves no respect.

All of life is a series of trade-offs, and if the trades include "total security" (as many of us experienced first-hand under Bush) at the cost of everything that made life worthwhile, I'll be happy to move to a place with a good climate, an acceptable standard of life and yes, problems such as crime, sometimes dodgy politics (but actually on a par with both Ozzie and U.S. politics), comparatively low pay and other inconveniences, problems and challenges. 

I have experienced a number of _fun_ things in the oh-so-secure U.S. ranging from being completely robbed by a room mate referred to me by an agency which collected a stiff premium for "screening" all applicants (but which somehow managed to miss the fact that the guy had a criminal record and had been in and out of 4 cocaine-addiction treatment programs in the three years immediately preceding their referral), a car jacking in broad daylight in urban Boston, several breaking and enterings in various U.S. states and cities, to four car break-ins and thefts as well as vandalism in the smallish city I currently still live in in Germany, which used to be a safe place, too. My uncle was beaten to death in his own apartment in Berlin by a Russian immigrant looking for money. A cousin was raped in a city park in Cologne in broad daylight. In Germany, murderers serve a "life sentence" of 15 years. _Crime is rampant all over these days_ - not just in RSA. And, as my father used to tell me over and over again, statistics can be laid out any which way the beholder, publisher, analyst or reader chooses to. And Germans say _Papier ist geduldig_ - paper is patient... 

Face it - crime is a problem _everywhere_, whether in RSA or aboard a cruise ship sailing towards the Suez Canal or in your own home in metropolitan Berlin, Boston, Cologne, _or, or, or. _ 

What I was trying to say in the other thread I started where I told *MartinW* not to bother posting his vitriol was simply that I am aware of the crime "statistics" and facts, I am aware that RSA is not perfect (having several RSA friends on active duty in H.M.'s Rhine Army here in Germany whom I've spoken with at length first-hand about it) and I am still willing to give it a try. After all, I have been given a contract and will be able to continue working - something which as a (nearly) 53-year-old I am unable to do in either Germany or America anymore... if the young leave RSA, fine. More jobs for us "old farts" who still would like to work rather than living on the dole or from the handouts of friends and relatives.

If you are happy with Oz, power to you. 

I may be unhappy in RSA, time will tell. I'd just like the chance to make up my own mind without dire warnings and scare tactics you three or four seem hell bent on using all over this forum. If, in time, I come back here in time to join your chorus, you may all chide me with "we told you so's" then, but until then, stow the negativity and answer constructively. Thanks very much.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Well Fritzy, you have once more proven how little you know.

What use is it to return when the very reason you left is unchanged and has in fact become worse?

there are a lot of people moving to SA from other Countries because there is a Skills shortage
as in excess of a million of its citizens have left as they strongly believe its best for their children.
And the skills that are coming in all have a skills transfer clause in their Contracts
So as soon as you have trained enough , you can then leave as SA's are the most Xenophobic Nation on Earth.
The SA Govt is spending Millions through its Tourism department to promote SA, to get skills to come in, pay tax, teach and not have the vote.

As to changeing it and the attitudes of its people, lets talk about that one again when you have lived there for a year or two.
you are'nt just getting it from 3 or 4 on this forum, you are getting it from most of the SA expats you have met, the expats in HM Rhine Army for one, do you really think we are ALL exagerating?

"*I may be unhappy in RSA, time will tell. I'd just like the chance to make up my own mind without dire warnings and scare tactics you three or four seem hell bent on using all over this forum."*

If you come on here with an open mind and ask constructive questions,you will get constructive answers.
If you post on here with with a preconcieved stance that its alll Bulls!t,overblown by a bunch of Cowardly racist, then you are going to get nailed in return.

if you ask a question about crime and you dont like the answer, dont shoot the messenger.

I've said it before, I dont give a sh!t wether you go there or not, but having holidayed there a couple of times does not make you an expert on what goes on.


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## TheLastBaron (Mar 27, 2009)

Daxk said:


> Well Fritzy, you have once more proven how little you know.
> 
> What use is it to return when the very reason you left is unchanged and has in fact become worse?
> 
> ...


Okay, Daxi (since I am apparently Fritzy, although that is my brother's name and just as offensive as if I called you a boorish transplant potato-eater, which I would never do)

I had no preconceptions when I joined this forum. I expected clear answers on clear questions (note other threads). What I got was the same three or four people repeatedly all telling me the same boogyman message - "don't go, don't go! Crime! Crime! Crime!" And that in response to any question asked, regardless of how off-topic it is or was.

My signed, sealed contract has no skills transfer clause, as it is a German-based contract and such a clause would be illegal here. 

And the assumption that many of you are cowardly racists is still not one that has been effectively or in any way disproven. Even cowardly racists can hide behind children, claim all sorts of achievements in life and spout off nonsense, by which I do not necessarily mean you.

So before you ride off on your high horse again, please review your own actions - all of the "advice" the three or four of you give everyone here is tainted with the attempt to only instill fear and not with the honest, sincere attempt to help people find out what they seek to learn, and that is not helpful in the least, despite whatever your own personal motivation may be. In the "is there a crime problem" threads, sure - let it all hang out. In others, where constructive help on individual issues is asked for, belt up on the crime thingy, okay sweetheart?

As for my friends and expats here, all of them go home for extended periods (often 6 months or more) every other year, most plan to go back there to retire, and those I have met in the Rhine Army also say that crime is an issue, but find it no worse than any big city they have been in anywhere else in the world. So who's exaggerating here? Not they, not I. Remember, when you point a finger, three point back at you, honey.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Your First Post I believe?"Hi, I suspect you moved to Oz because you are a racist. Many whites fled SA after Apartheid ended and Oz was a preferred place to resettle. You seem to have nothing kind to say about SA, no matter who posts, who asks what and how intelligent a question may be. I think you may want to cease and desist and go find something else to should about, Martin. No one is buying what you are selling anymore. "
4th Post when no-one had commented negatively on the thread you asked us not to.

"Thanks for your reply. Positive is the way to go. I just find it strange that nearly all the negativity about RSA comes from expats who have left to Oz and still find the time to shred RSA... "

Cowardly racists??

In the same way that pommy [email protected] is not an insult in Oz, ,SA's large German Community are often teased about being Fritzy as Afrikaners are about being called Van, learn to live with it.
Of the large number of German friends I have its actually amazing how many of them are over the top racists,(and the Dutch too) we're'nt born that way, just became.

tell me ,in your criminal incidents in the US and Germany, your hi-jacking, cocked gun at the head? did they start dragging your wife towards some bushes?when they got caught and came out on bail did they come and visit you and point to your daughter and make suggestive movements as to what they were going to do to her?

and when you discussed this with the police Commissioner for the area, did he tell you their Dockets were "lost" so they were out on Permanent bail, the 7 Hi-jacking and two rape charges they were on still have'nt come to trial. Thats 4 years now.

Your Uncle,did they catch the killer? lock him away?
in SA the difference between Murder cases and Convictions is staggering, you dont like stats?
its only 11% conviction rate. (9% for rape)

The Advertising sells SA as paradise, and it is, problem is they dont tell you about the poisoned apples.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

TheLastBaron said:


> I may be unhappy in RSA, time will tell. I'd just like the chance to make up my own mind without dire warnings and scare tactics you three or four seem hell bent on using all over this forum. If, in time, I come back here in time to join your chorus, you may all chide me with "we told you so's" then, but until then, stow the negativity and answer constructively. Thanks very much.


Dear Baron von Munchhausen.... How can someone like myself who have had family members killed (and this is not just a botched robbery - Hijacked, beaten, ending up in a black bag) seen the deterioration..... sit back and not tell those (especially with children) that SA is a good place to migrate to.

Truth is truth... perhaps you're not affected and for this I am grateful. Others on the other hand are not so lucky.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Baron:"My signed, sealed contract has no skills transfer clause, as it is a German-based contract and such a clause would be illegal here. "

So you wont be asked to mentor and train someone up to take your place in case you should decide to leave?
There is no Training or assistance in your Job description?


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## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

It always amazes me that after getting on their high horse for a while, how silent these proclaimers become! I think that maybe TheLastBaron has realised that there just may be an inkling of truth in some of these posts!


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

Zimtony said:


> It always amazes me that after getting on their high horse for a while, how silent these proclaimers become! !


Are you really suprised after his reception here


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## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> Are you really suprised after his reception here


You are probably right, but then sometimes the truth hurts! The great thing about these forums is that you can take all the views expressed, water them down, shake them up and make up your own mind on things. I guess that none of us are pretending to be the absolute expert in any area, but we each have experiences that are worth sharing. How they are interpreted and used is up to the reader!


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> Are you really suprised after his reception here


Considering the last barons insults and attitudes I've highlighted from his first to 4th Posts, I think he got off very lightly.
I sincerely hope that SA teaches him some humility.


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## Klebe (Dec 29, 2008)

Daxk said:


> Considering the last barons insults and attitudes I've highlighted from his first to 4th Posts, I think he got off very lightly.
> *I sincerely hope that SA teaches him some humility*.


That's funny Daxk! We can attribute many fine qualities to South Africans, but humility's not a well practised one!
How long've you been out of SA?


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## Klebe (Dec 29, 2008)

Zimtony said:


> It always amazes me that after getting on their high horse for a while, how silent these proclaimers become! I think that maybe TheLastBaron has realised that there just may be an inkling of truth in some of these posts!


Ever wondered why this particular SA forum is so lonely....?

Give up Baron!
Come to SA...the vociferous vitriolic vector are not representative of the South African population.
They've been at it for ever and cannot be moved


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Gee Klebe, I got my family out 4 years ago, I was last physically there 3 years ago, 
I spoke to my Office this afternoon, Pity about the Manager at that little pub in Fourways from last week,
Sa is a paradise, but there are also some serpents, it is in the time after I left that Fred Picton-Turberville ,who had taken his family back to Paradise from the UK, had a bad day.
For those who have'nt been to SA ,Carte Blanche is an actuality TV program and this was their report on SA TV.






Klebe, would you mind telling me which part of this actuality report, which reflects one of the half a million Home Invasions in SA during the past 4 years is the Vitriolic invective of which you speak.


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## ROKZY (Feb 25, 2009)

Klebe said:


> Ever wondered why this particular SA forum is so lonely....?
> 
> Give up Baron!
> Come to SA...the vociferous vitriolic vector are not representative of the South African population.
> They've been at it for ever and cannot be moved


Hi Klebe,

Glad to see you again and still giving good advice


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

"Ever wondered why this particular SA forum is so lonely....?

I think it might be the Colour scheme???


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

In a word - HATE...... Just wait for the Zumafication!


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## Klebe (Dec 29, 2008)

ROKZY said:


> Hi Klebe,
> 
> Glad to see you again and still giving good advice


Lol...I can only try


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## Klebe (Dec 29, 2008)

Daxk said:


> Gee Klebe, I got my family out 4 years ago, I was last physically there 3 years ago,
> I spoke to my Office this afternoon, Pity about the Manager at that little pub in Fourways from last week,
> Sa is a paradise, but there are also some serpents, it is in the time after I left that Fred Picton-Turberville ,who had taken his family back to Paradise from the UK, had a bad day.
> For those who have'nt been to SA ,Carte Blanche is an actuality TV program and this was their report on SA TV.
> ...



That's like using an article from the Daily Mirror or The Sun tabloids and using it as a true reflection of life in the UK.
From first hand experience I can assure you that Carte Blanche is only interested in "news" stories if it will excite comment - good or bad. Boring community upliftment stories will not be taken up by them because there's no controversy. After all, who wants to hear boring stories about people helping themselves...?

You do not seem to realise that this forum is for people who want advice...most of them have already made up their minds about where they're going. They do not really need your personal crusade to save them...they are not your children that you have a duty to educate. Give your opinion, that's fair, but desist from arguing with others who do not agree with your point of view. 
Give it a try, you might like it...


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

"You do not seem to realise that this forum is for people who want advice...most of them have already made up their minds about where they're going. They do not really need your personal crusade to save them...they are not your children that you have a duty to educate. Give your opinion, that's fair, but desist from arguing with others who do not agree with your point of view. "

Klebe, it is advice, it might not be the advice you and the Tourist Board want them to hear but it is advice.
its be careful, be aware, and everyone who comes on here for advice sooner or later raises the crime isue, because paradise has lots of rotten Apples,

You are totally mistaken, I have no interest actually in educating them,they are grown ups, I come on here because happy little Bunnies try and spin lies about how safe it all is.
I come on here for people such as you and Rokzy, if you bothered to read my posts you wil find that I do give Advice, good advice,that is not crime related, then someone posts as you just did, its all wonderful, its Snoopy doing his spring dance.
So I post a reality check.
So dear Klebe, which part of that Carte Blanche(the most popular actuality program on SA TV networks) resembles the Daily Mail?

Did that happen to the Picton-Turnbulls or not?
Does it happen to thousands of people in SA?
Were those school kids lieing?
Pray tell where that program was over the top?


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## Klebe (Dec 29, 2008)

Daxk said:


> "You do not seem to realise that this forum is for people who want advice...most of them have already made up their minds about where they're going. They do not really need your personal crusade to save them...they are not your children that you have a duty to educate. Give your opinion, that's fair, but desist from arguing with others who do not agree with your point of view. "
> 
> Klebe, it is advice, it might not be the advice you and the Tourist Board want them to hear but it is advice.
> its be careful, be aware, and everyone who comes on here for advice sooner or later raises the crime isue, because paradise has lots of rotten Apples,
> ...


Please do not call me dear...you do not know me from a bar of soap.

"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and putting things in it."

Your petty, sly little put downs and sarcastic tone is wearisome.

I'm very grateful that I do not, and will never have the displeasure of actually having to convince you of anything. 

You cannot be moved, and so you shall remain...


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

So you put down a very valid peice of TV investigative Journalism as being the same as the Daily Mail in the UK, and when i call you on it, you get all huffy.
Once again you are mistaken, you can convince me, 
It takes fact.
Because thats what I post, Klebe,
Not supposition, not spin, not hearsay.
fact.
Counter it , agree with it or go and play in the traffic.


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## Unseer (Jul 8, 2008)

I haven't posted here in a long time because I've been actively planning to go home and couldn't be asked to waste precious seconds of my life getting tense at my computer screen. I haven't been getting revved up by factually selective arguments because, well, they're selective - like the Zuma trial and look what happened there. This is the first post I've read in ages and nothing's changed, it's still a pissing contest - really surprised by how many people enjoy it. To be fair, some people like brussel sprouts so I totally agree this is down to personal taste.

On that note (and now that I've finished up on the loo) I'm going to go back to reality and planning to go home. Please feel free to rip this post to shreds, I expect it to be beyond emotional - an event.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Unseer, wish you happiness.
Your return to SA will fall under the same caveat as Jacob Zuma's innocence.
Time will tell.
10 years down the road and either the best thing or the worst thing.


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## pegleg (Feb 12, 2009)

Halo said:


> Dear Baron von Munchhausen.... How can someone like myself who have had family members killed (and this is not just a botched robbery - Hijacked, beaten, ending up in a black bag) seen the deterioration..... sit back and not tell those (especially with children) that SA is a good place to migrate to.
> 
> Truth is truth... perhaps you're not affected and for this I am grateful. Others on the other hand are not so lucky.


 I think its beter to leave the telling of the truth well alone.
Especially when there are individuals that still have "Business" interests, property, etc, here.
I too have property here, that I would LOVE to sell for a fair price, to re invest in Australia or new zealand. I still live in South Africa, and while I still live here, (Still busy with the visa process) I cant wait to leave.

While my House, car, and all I own is paid up for, its the way it was settled that is interesting. . .Try being crushed by a black man at work. . .He didnt even have a hearing, nothing was done about it. I had to get lawyers at my own cost to sort this mess out, and boy is it costing, first court date is only in february 2010.
Luckily I had insurances. . .these paid for my house, etc, but I would rather have been "Whole" with some debt, than what I have now.
No, SA is definately not for me, my wife and 3 year old daughter (Wife was 3 months pregnant when I got crushed- Abdomen, pelvis, left leg)

And while I still have a trade thats in high demand, even with a prosthesis, I should easily make a go of it. Here in SA, with the current company, they said I can never climb the ladder because of it, so I prefer a country that is more flexible and without the affirmative action.

Nah, you can have SA. just buy my house, and I will glady invest else where.


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## Darko (May 6, 2009)

I've seen "advice" like that from the "SA Haters" before.

1st piece of advice:

"Leave SA now, before the ZAR hits 30 against the GBP...then it will be too late". This was when the ZAR was 15 odd to 1, and these "SA haters" predicted 30:1 in no time. It currently stands at a very low 12.8ish to 1. I hope nobody left on that sound piece of advice.

2nd piece of advice:

"Just wait for the 2009 elections - you will see tribalism and bloodshed at its worst - and then you will realise that you should've left SA". Now I'm not being funny or anything....but these were the most peaceful elections i have ever encountered.

So please, treat the term "advice" with a pinch of salt. If these "SA Haters" were so good at giving advice and predicting armageddon, they woudl all be billionairres.

I think the reason we see such individuals with negative eyes, is because of their relentless knack to will / wish SA into doom - and somehow it just doesn't happen in reality. They are simply bored in my view.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Gee Darko, I'm certainly not giving advice.
And I certainly dont speak for anyone else except me.

There's a very fast way to shut me up, Darko.
Prove me wrong.
In addition, most predictions are based on historical fact.

I am amazed(and grateful) that the ZAR is doing as well as it is.
When was that small bounce when the News hit that Trevor Manuel had resigned?
Within my lifetime the rand was at 2 to the £, I also recall 21 to the £ within my childs lifetime.
What was the rand when we had that little bout of Xenophobia?
Are you saying that the current good performance is going to continue ad infinitum?

Again I am extremely grateful that there was as little violence at this election.
94,2001 and 2005 elections all had Zulu's and Xhosa's killing each other and a very high murder rate, so on probability theory, Mbeki/Zuma/Cope/IFP and all the shenanigans with Malema and Ancyl,there was a strong possibility.
or are you saying that tribal factionalism in SA politics is past?

My point on this thread is that all the little titles and comments such as your
"I think the reason we see such individuals with negative eyes, is because of their relentless knack to will / wish SA into doom - and somehow it just doesn't happen in reality. They are simply bored in my view. "
Is simply trying to negate the horrible truth that SA is failing because those in power are corrupt and the electorate ignorant.

Tell me, do you also see Archbishop Desmond Tutu's recent comments as willing SA into doom?

What would it take to turn SA into a typical failed African State?


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## Darko (May 6, 2009)

Daxk said:


> Gee Darko, I'm certainly not giving advice.
> And I certainly dont speak for anyone else except me.
> 
> There's a very fast way to shut me up, Darko.
> ...


Daxk,

"are yo saying that tribal factionalism in SA politics is [email protected] - Nope, just stating that the many predictions by the "SA haters" of bloodhsed were false....probability theory or not.


Regarding the ZAR - historical fact serves very little purpose when predicting where the ZAR will be - as is so blatantly obvious right now. It may stay the same, it may go down, it may go up. But so many "SA Haters" could see it worsening. 

Re your last paragraph: Negate the truth huh? The truth is, peeps like you and other "SA haters" (not my chosen term by the way) only see truth in one direction - this is sad, and my couple of examples above prove "your" truths to be, well, untruthful. A case of pot and kettle.

The fact that those in power are quite appalling characters is undeniable - but their actions do not necessarily make or break a country...and ALL its people.

Desmond Tutu's ciomments are focussed and constructive. the difference between his and the traditional "SA Haters" is the subject matter of criticism. The "SA hater" will wish / will / predict doom on SA on all fronts - ZAR, economy, crime, business, health, education, 2010WC etc etc - get my drift?

What would it take? Oh, I dunno - for starters, a violent election which is totally non-fair and free? Perhaps a declining spend on infrastructure? Perhaps when the rest of the world sees us as unfit to host any major and potentially high risk sporting events? Who knows...you tell me. What does the law of probability say?


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Darko, Historical fact can predict how FDI reacts to certain stimuli.
with the exception of Malawi , which Hastings Banda ruled with an iron fist,and Botswana which was in essence a private fiefdom for Anglo and deBeers all the other Sub saharan African Countries that are Multi-tribal have failed.

They have all followed a similar path.
Flight of Skills (which has happened in SA)
Free and fair Elections for the first 10 years then a change of the constitution to increase Presidential term.
Mbeki tried this last year, Zuma only has to bribe two floor crossers to get the 2/3rds to change the Constitution.
And the Constitution has already been changed to create racial Bias.
the new Pornography Bill which effectively re-creates a censorship Board has a vague little addendum "Deemed to be not in the public interest" and everything has to be passed by a Govt Official.
Thats Censorship awaiting which is another big milestone in the Failed States.
The Govt is constantly trying to Influence the Judiciary and has shown that it is above the Constitutional Court, the highest Court in the land.
The Collapse of the rule of law and Policing is another huge Indicator.
Infrastructure is creaking and collapsing iro Education,Health,Water and Power.
The Govt has failed in its promise of Employment,Housing Delivery and SA is now a nett importer of food.
The populace have already shown that when a train is delayed they will burn the station down.
When School or University fees are demanded, they riot and burn.
Kyaletsha today is a prime example.

Your question about elections are moot.
SA has a population of 48 million, 37% or 17 million are over 65(3%) or too young too vote.
of the remaining 30 million only 21 million have registered to vote and only 70 odd% voted.
thats 15 million.
The unemployed youth total 15 million.
in the broad definition of unemployment, 17 million are too old or too young to work.
of the remaining 30 million the SARS only has 13 million as a tax base.

who are already paying high tax rates.
The Arms deal is'nt paid for in full yet. the second phase now kicks in.
The Sports events particularly the stadia and Gautrain are being funded by International loans.
Which have to be paid.
The two million visitors to WC2010 is now down to hopefully 450,000,
When the Stadia and Gautrain are complete, what jobs will those Construction workers do then?
How will the Municipalities pay for the upkeep of those stadia?

And there are 32 Million unemployed of which 15 million youngsters want money and cars and the good life.
which they cant have.

So the fact that SA is Josh Grobans favourite place does'nt give me a warm feeling.
Now tell me which good news is going to change all of that?
You cannot change a country from the middle its either top down or bottom up.
the middle just wants to be left alone.












I repeat my question, why did the markets react to Trevor Manuels resignation when Mbeki was ousted?


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## Darko (May 6, 2009)

Daxk said:


> Darko, Historical fact can predict how FDI reacts to certain stimuli.
> with the exception of Malawi , which Hastings Banda ruled with an iron fist,and Botswana which was in essence a private fiefdom for Anglo and deBeers all the other Sub saharan African Countries that are Multi-tribal have failed.
> 
> They have all followed a similar path.
> ...


Simple truth is, without writing an essay, that your and other @SA [email protected] predictions / @[email protected] have been conclusively proven to be incorrect again. No need to go further than that or to digress from the topic.

Thye markets reacted as Trevor is competent and his resignation is a scary thought - initially at least.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

This thread ,which I started, is about people assuming that Criticism of the SA Govt is tantamount to hating SA.

Even with writing an essay, you cannot dispute my facts,so you choose to ignore them.


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## Darko (May 6, 2009)

Daxk said:


> This thread ,which I started, is about people assuming that Criticism of the SA Govt is tantamount to hating SA.
> 
> Even with writing an essay, you cannot dispute my facts,so you choose to ignore them.


I chose to ignore that long essay as it was boring, and it was a futile attempt to digress from the topic as i had conclusively proven that your "truths" were nothing of the sort. They were more like wishful predictions that fell flat on its face.

Bloodshed during elections - nothing
SWC2010 being given to another country due to safety concerns - nope
Rand reaching 30:1 - nope
Another failed African State - nope.

I could go on, but that may attract a further essay.

Oh pls, criticizing the government is fine - but these 3 simple examples listed above has NOTHING to do with criticizing government. Criticizing government should be based on current or past governmental actions - not wishful predictions. Try pull the other one.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Darko said:


> I chose to ignore that long essay as it was boring, and it was a futile attempt to digress from the topic as i had conclusively proven that your "truths" were nothing of the sort. They were more like wishful predictions that fell flat on its face.
> 
> *Bloodshed during elections - nothing
> SWC2010 being given to another country due to safety concerns - nope
> ...


Yet.
The Failed african states tended to be peaceful and Democratic for at least two Presidential terms, SA has managed to stumble through 16 years.
Zim is a prime case in point.


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## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

Darko

Again you choose to ignore the big picture and focus on a micro view on whcih to base your insults, impart your knowledge and share your wisdom. To clear a view points:

None of us who post here are SA haters. We rather are individuals who have personal experience of being born/growing up/living in/doing business with/emigrating from South Africa. (You can delete or tick the applicable!) As stated before, it is not possible to hate a country and none of the posters here have professed to hate South Africa. 
Clearly South Africa may be the Holy Grail for certain expatriates. I have no problem with that at all and I wish all of you all the luck in the world.

My personal desire to post is to provide some sort of balance to those SA newbies who now wish to portray South Africa as some sort of Garden of Eden. Sure, it is one of the most beautiful places on the Earth. Yes, so long as you have some money, you can lead a fairly decent quality of life. However, if you do not want to bring your children up in an atmosphere of fear; should you not want to live behind a security system that is admired by Fort Knox; if the simple things in life are precious to you (just going for a walk down the road/ along the beachfront/strolling through a town centre) then, generally, life in South Africa is not for you. Any suggestion to the contrary is, at best misguided and at worst, a blatent lie by those who are trying to fool others whilst also fooling themselves or trying to justify a bad mistake to themselves and others!

The micro comments about South Africa right now (world cup 2010, no bloodshed at these last elections,ZAR at 12 to 1, not 30) are just not relevant.
Consider this big picture:
In 1980 Zimbabwe gained independence.
Rober Mugabe was seen by the western world (mostly the UK) as some kind of saviour able to transcend the black/white problems of the day.
At this time, the country exported more food to the rest of Africa than it used itself.
Up to this independence date, the country had suffered appaling sanctions being placed on it from the western world, primarily the UK. 
It was largely self sufficient, except for oil.
It had one of the most enviable infrastructures in Africa. (Electricity, water, roads, health system, schools, apprenticeship schemes and had a very small per capita unemplyment rate)
At the time of Independence the Zimbabwe Dollar was woth 1.47 US Dollars! (I would get RSI if I tried to type in all the zeros that would be applicable today if I tried to now calculate how many Zim dollars I could buy with 1 US dollar. And by the time you had read this, it would have changed exponentially again.)
It had trouble free elections.
Now remember, at this point in time, many people also had a rose tinted view about how great it was going to be in this new, exciting, independent country.

What thoughts on Zimbabwe today? Any comments? See any parallels? Any other real life examples? I know a lot of people that moved to Zimbabwe during this period, looking for the new land of milk and honey. I have a rather sneaking feeling that not too many are there today! And consider the brain drain on qualified people leaving Zimbabwe, that were replaced by relatively lower skilled/lower experienced people, that is being equalled in South Africa today. Don't believe me? Just google South Africans in Austalia/UK/Ireland/USA etc and see for yourself.

Unfortunately, it is without doubt that South Africa is heading the same way. The path may be slightly different, due to other factors, (communications, different tribal dynamics, strong diverse financial base in relation to the rest of the continent), but the destination will be the same. Another failed African state needing bailing out by the rest of the world.

Like many other posters here, in the words of Clarke Gable, "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn" about those of you who have moved there and are trying to make it work. Truly, I wish you all the luck in the world and I would absolutely love to have to eat my hat after being proved wrong. However, I do believe that it is my birthright to be able to share a little more "perspective" with those that are considering a move on the basis of a one-sided view given by posters such as yourself.

Good luck, hope that you really do well and that South Africa can survive. Me, I prefer to be able to sleep at night, knowing my 17 year old daughter can drive herself home safely, that the dog barking probably means it has seen a cat and that if I wake up to a strange noise in the house, the icemaker has just dropped another load in the freezer.


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## Darko (May 6, 2009)

Zimtony said:


> Darko
> 
> Again you choose to ignore the big picture and focus on a micro view on whcih to base your insults, impart your knowledge and share your wisdom. To clear a view points:
> 
> ...


Aaaah, Zimtony...pls tell me where I have insulted anyone? Hypersensitivity is something that does not often marry well to contributions on open fora/forums.

1. "SA Haters" is a term I quoted from the thread originator. As I stated in previous posts, it is not my term of choice to begin with. This statement alone should take care of most of your post.

2. Of course my "micro" comments are relevant. These are the very comments (and again, I said before, they are only a few examples of such comments) used by "SA Haters" to dispell negativity about the country. But I guess when it doesn't swing in the favour of the "SA hater" it becomes irrelevant. I understand. Amazing how relevant it does become when it suites the person posting isn't it?

3. Thanks for the history lesson on Zimbabwe. But until SA becomes Zimbabwe, i suggest we hold onto the "I told you so's". It has been proven time and time again that predictions of doom have been unfounded - and if not, doom will arrive in an indeterminate time...right? Fact and Prediction are 2 different things. The parallels...well, there will always be parallels. We are in post-colonial Africa. The beginnings of independence will alawys look the same. The brain drain in Zimbabwe is nowhere near comparable to that of South Africa's. But no time now to get into the obviousness of this.

4. Heading towards another failed African state huh? Is this another fact? I'm sorry, but it can't be called fact until sucvh time that it happens. Like the fact that SA was surely headed for civil war and bloodshed in 1994. Liek SA's currency would be worthless by COB 21008 etc etc etc. Nothing but personal opinion and predictions....no fact whatsoever.

5. Ditto on Clarke Gable about those that moved abroad...to each their own. Except that you contradict yourself. You state you don't give a damn, and then that you truly wish us luck....which is it?

6. Pls tell me a single one-sided post I have given to convince anyone to move back to SA. I wait in anticipation. You can't just shoot from the hip without substantiation - even though that is the modus operandi of the "SA Hater" My opinions are based on fact. I am not in denial about crime and all those other lovely things. Your facts are based on predictions...many of which have been proven wrong over...and over again. 

7. Glad you can finally sleep well at night. You should've left Zim long ago and come to SA. We sleep quite well here. And please....don't try to convince yourself that you are happy where you are. I'm sure you made the right decision.


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## Darko (May 6, 2009)

Zimtony said:


> Darko
> 
> Again you choose to ignore the big picture and focus on a micro view on whcih to base your insults, impart your knowledge and share your wisdom. To clear a view points:
> 
> ...


Aaaah, Zimtony...pls tell me where I have insulted anyone? Hypersensitivity is something that does not often marry well to contributions on open fora/forums.

1. "SA Haters" is a term I quoted from the thread originator. As I stated in previous posts, it is not my term of choice to begin with. This statement alone should take care of most of your post.

2. Of course my "micro" comments are relevant. These are the very comments (and again, I said before, they are only a few examples of such comments) used by "SA Haters" to dispell negativity about the country. But I guess when it doesn't swing in the favour of the "SA hater" it becomes irrelevant. I understand. Amazing how relevant it does become when it suites the person posting isn't it?

3. Thanks for the history lesson on Zimbabwe. But until SA becomes Zimbabwe, i suggest we hold onto the "I told you so's". It has been proven time and time again that predictions of doom have been unfounded - and if not, doom will arrive in an indeterminate time...right? Fact and Prediction are 2 different things. The parallels...well, there will always be parallels. We are in post-colonial Africa. The beginnings of independence will alawys look the same. The brain drain in Zimbabwe is nowhere near comparable to that of South Africa's. But no time now to get into the obviousness of this.

4. Heading towards another failed African state huh? Is this another fact? I'm sorry, but it can't be called fact until sucvh time that it happens. Like the fact that SA was surely headed for civil war and bloodshed in 1994. Liek SA's currency would be worthless by COB 2008 etc etc etc. Nothing but personal opinion and predictions....no fact whatsoever.

5. Ditto on Clarke Gable about those that moved abroad...to each their own. Except that you contradict yourself. You state you don't give a damn, and then that you truly wish us luck....which is it?

6. Pls tell me a single one-sided post I have given to convince anyone to move back to SA. I wait in anticipation. You can't just shoot from the hip without substantiation - even though that is the modus operandi of the "SA Hater" My opinions are based on fact. I am not in denial about crime and all those other lovely things. Your facts are based on predictions...many of which have been proven wrong over...and over again. 

7. Glad you can finally sleep well at night. You should've left Zim long ago and come to SA. We sleep quite well here. And please....don't try to convince yourself that you are happy where you are. I'm sure you made the right decision.


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## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

Darko

Firstly, I left Zim in 1982, a part of the brain drain that occurred. I moved to Johannesburg and then on to Cape Town, before deciding that there was a "big picture" to life and I moved here to Spain in 2001. No need to try and convince myself that I have made the correct decision! Life is safe, healthy not too bad financially, stable, I don't lose any sleep at night if my kids want to stay out in town with friends and I only have to put up with boy racer Spaniards - no Zola Budds trying to force there way into the traffic!

Without getting into a long p*****g competition about who said what in previous posts, all I would confirm is this: 
- I would be genuinly delighted if South Africa proves to be the one exception that proves the African rule on failed states. (I still have business interests in South Africa and contribute both in terms of providing employment and in paying taxes.)
- People who who have fairly recently moved to South Africa should be sensible, realistic and truthful about the state of affairs out there, both to themselves and to others who may not have made that final step yet. (I very nearly said fateful step - Freudian slip!)
There may always be exremes in terms of opnions, from both "SA Haters" (not your term!) and "SA Virgins" (my term): However, what cannot be denied are the official figures that prove that South Africa is one of the most violent countries in terms of personal crime in the entire world, it has a rampant HIV problem, there is a huge exodus of talented, skilled and qualified people, being replaced by an influx of mostly unskilled people and that the political framework allows for huge corruption and influence. (Now I am not suggesting that Sr Zapatero here in Spain is an angel, or that Gordon Brown is some tpe of Saint, But Jacob Zuma? Hello!!!!)

Perhaps it can't yet be called fact that SA is heading toward another failed African state. However, when trying to take a view on future outcomes, you can only base it on history, current indicators and how those two devils line up. Unfortunately, the indicators are that South Africa is on the same slope. (Ek is jammer tot enige Afrikaaners wat hierdie post gelees het; die woord "slope" is nie 'bedoel soos 'n ledig nie!)

Of course time wil tell and perception is the only reality. If you are convinced that SA is safe, a great place to bring up kids, no major political problems and not going down the drain, then hey, that is your reality! Me, I know too many people who have been through this same situation in Africa, from Zambia, Mozambique, Zimababwe to ignore historical facts.
You know, when us lot from (the then) Rhodeisa first moved to SOuth Africa in the 80's, our nickname from the South Africvans was "whenwee's" coz all we talked about was "when was in Rhodesia..." now we are called the "Herewee's" as in, "here we go again!!"

Looks like I contradicted myself again and wrote an essay!

Genuinly, good luck in your new life in SA. I honestly hope that things work out as you visualise (another almost Freudian slip by typing fantasize!). Me, I've been there, got the TShirt, read the book, done the service, seen the crime first hand (got the battle scars to prove), lost friends, seen lives shattered and actually don't want the aggro.

BTW, been there long? Where are you living? Where on Mud Island where you from?


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## Darko (May 6, 2009)

Zimtony said:


> Darko
> 
> Firstly, I left Zim in 1982, a part of the brain drain that occurred. I moved to Johannesburg and then on to Cape Town, before deciding that there was a "big picture" to life and I moved here to Spain in 2001. No need to try and convince myself that I have made the correct decision! Life is safe, healthy not too bad financially, stable, I don't lose any sleep at night if my kids want to stay out in town with friends and I only have to put up with boy racer Spaniards - no Zola Budds trying to force there way into the traffic!
> 
> ...


These are fair points you raise Zimtony. Which is why I NEVER insult or direct anger towards those that have left / leave SA. I know many that have left for the very reasons you cite. I can fully understand this and I empathise with you, and them. 

BTW, I am not disillusional about SA. I critiocise more than I care to mention here. I do however criticize it where it serves the purpose. SA could quickly turn one way or the other. I simply choose not to base my opinion on @what [email protected] You correctly say that we only have history to go on. Well, since 1994 history has taught us that the predictions by doomsayers were false - so far. So whilst history in other countries may prove otherwise, post-democratic history in SA proves the doomsayer to be incorrect.

IMHO, Crime is the only, but major issue in this country. Zuma?? Yip, don't like the dancing, singing and corrupt guy much. But he's here, now lets see.

Reality?? This is simple...reality is reality. It is what is factually happening or has happened. Reality is not what might happen based on what transpired in Zambia or wherever in the 70's. It may become reality...but also may not.

Official figures would be correct...I have never denied this. SA is a violent country in terms of personal crime. Always has been.

This huge exodus you mention....I can conclusively say it is not that huge anymore. I work with VERY highly skilled people, 10% of which are European foreign nationals with credentials up to their ears. I can't deny that there was a huge exodus, and that there is still a trickle - but at the moment, an almost equal trickle coming back. 

I do envy the lives of people who can sleep well at night abroad. But I've been there myself. Sleep pretty well now here too...in my "Fort Knox". 

For me life is simple....happiness exists when you have people to share it with, and for me, people are the many close friends and family back here in SA. I slept very well at night in the UK....but was I as happy as I am now in the more dangerous SA?? Nope. 

This is a subjective matter anyway, which is why I always say "to each their own". Trying to change someones values in life is a futile thing, no matter how much the "SA Hater" tries with their future "facts" based on nothing but a guess.

Lived in the UK for 4 yrs, been back 3. 

Thanks for the "sincere" well wishes.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Good Post,Darko


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## Unseer (Jul 8, 2008)

Great post actually.


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## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

Ditto! Good post, great balance!

And ,my good wishes, are most difintely sincere!


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

I just cannot see the balance.... Only a few statements of fact. If crime is the only thing you are able to see that has deteriorated since 1994 I want a pair of your rose coloured spectacles.

One cannot compare Zambia/Zim to SA due to the demographics so lets drop that....... What I can see is :

A failing infrastructure - While SA won't become a bared wasteland due to its resources and vested interests it will slowly drift to a Nigerian type existance where the multinationals prop up the governments keeping the country ticking over.

I hope I am wrong and somehow SA can jump 500 years in a generation but I somehow doubt it. Soon people will tire of waiting for land.

Most people I know that are still there have it tough compared to those I know around the globe.

Good luck is all I can say.


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## Darko (May 6, 2009)

Halo said:


> I just cannot see the balance.... Only a few statements of fact. If crime is the only thing you are able to see that has deteriorated since 1994 I want a pair of your rose coloured spectacles.
> 
> One cannot compare Zambia/Zim to SA due to the demographics so lets drop that....... What I can see is :
> 
> ...


Halo,

Seems you already have some sort of tinted shades on - judging by ypur pic!

Failing infrastructure? Care to elaborate? 

MOST people that have left, have left because of crime (not all, but most). hence, crime MUST be the major push factor. This is an opinion based on statistical research conducted by various bodies - not just something I conjured up all by myself. I never heard of anyone leaving SA because there was a pothole in the road where they live. Hell, if potholes (i.e. infrastructure) was the major push factor, Ireland would have no residents!


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Darko, (As you raised Ireland) I agree that no-one left/is leaving SA because of a pothole in the road.
But then the Irish are also less likely to riot because of it.
Lets look at SA 's infrastructure,in comparison to other 3rd World Countries its pretty good and had it been maintained it would have been better.

Eskom is still rationing Electricity and will need to do so for at least 5 years.

Water Quality is becoming a problem as is quantity due to failure to control illegal waste disposal ,Lack of Maintenance at the Sewerage works is creating additional hazards.

Health is on the point of collapse for those who cannot afford Private medical care.

The Education Department themselves point out that the failure and drop-out rate is too high 

The Roads in SA are becoming a problem.
Now agreed,again,none of these are going to drive people out, but all together,they affect the morale of those who cannot leave ,if you add in the endemic corruption , failue of bureacracy(sp) attitude of those in power then it is drifting towards failed State status.

I also agree SA could go either way, but what makes a success or failure are the people and their rulers and their morale and actions.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Darko said:


> Halo,
> 
> Seems you already have some sort of tinted shades on - judging by ypur pic!
> 
> ...


Yup, but I want the rose tinted ones........ 

That is so but its not the only reason. (here are a few others)
1. Rand worth nothing anywhere
2. Can't move funds
3. BEE / AA
4. Lets talk power stations.... Where are they? (All those new house will need juice)
5. Public health care is sub-standard at best.
6. Skills gap

PS Its not just crime -> Its the violent crime and the hate - I can deal with my Plasma being stolen but being shot with the missus raped is just not cricket.

One has to think of your children and your childrens children... Take a risk assessment, you will find SA gets a E-.


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## Darko (May 6, 2009)

Halo said:


> Yup, but I want the rose tinted ones........
> 
> That is so but its not the only reason. (here are a few others)
> 1. Rand worth nothing anywhere
> ...


1. I think you'll find the rand has been improving recently. The effects of a weak rand are felt more when you do leave, not when you earn and spend ZAR. The ZAR has been weak for over a decade now, nothing new. The weakness of our currency against USD; GBP is not unique to SA - If you look hard enough (not even all that hard) you'll find other currencies which are just as weak and even moreso in some instances.
2. Not being able to move funds - not sure why you reckon this is a push factor? care to explain? Foreign Exchange Control are a legacy policy - nothing new here either.
3. Yip, this is a pain in the arse...I will be honest. It is probably second to crime in terms of being a push factor.
4. They're around - I haven't experienced a power failure iin over a year now. there may be issues going forward, then again there may not be. 
5. Public Healthcare - definitely an issue....for sure. But those than can afford emigration usually had private healthcare. an issue, but not as big an issue to the "would be" emigrant as crime.
6. Skills gap - why would this push someone out of a country?

I do however agree, that it's the violence of the crime that is most concerning.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Darko said:


> 1. I think you'll find the rand has been improving recently. The effects of a weak rand are felt more when you do leave, not when you earn and spend ZAR. The ZAR has been weak for over a decade now, nothing new. The weakness of our currency against USD; GBP is not unique to SA - If you look hard enough (not even all that hard) you'll find other currencies which are just as weak and even moreso in some instances.
> 2. Not being able to move funds - not sure why you reckon this is a push factor? care to explain? Foreign Exchange Control are a legacy policy - nothing new here either.
> 3. Yip, this is a pain in the arse...I will be honest. It is probably second to crime in terms of being a push factor.
> 4. They're around - I haven't experienced a power failure iin over a year now. there may be issues going forward, then again there may not be.
> ...


1. Want to put some money on that not being the case by the end of the year? Look in 1983 it was R2=£1 (say no more)
2. Correct, when one removes a virus, why replace it with another?
3. And it will only get worse when people jockey for the $$ when the money tap dries up
4. Great news... Those poor technicians. It takes 7-12 years to build power stations.... you already load shed - Please do some research. Its a slow process and SA still have many skilled people who live there which prolongs the inevitable.
5. I would beg to differ, many who leave (plumbers/carpet fitters/electricians) who I know in Australia could not afford this in SA.
6. When you boss has IQ of 75 it really makes life rewarding.

Concerning is an understatement of note.


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## Darko (May 6, 2009)

Halo said:


> 1. Want to put some money on that not being the case by the end of the year? Look in 1983 it was R2=£1 (say no more)
> 2. Correct, when one removes a virus, why replace it with another?
> 3. And it will only get worse when people jockey for the $$ when the money tap dries up
> 4. Great news... Those poor technicians. It takes 7-12 years to build power stations.... you already load shed - Please do some research. Its a slow process and SA still have many skilled people who live there which prolongs the inevitable.
> ...


1. LOL!! hahahaha. I took a similar bet with someone just like you that the rand would not hit 20:1 (30:1 was even suggested) by end of 2008. Guess who won! So what is your prediction for end of 2009? Not fact...but prediction. Why didn't you emigrate in 1981 when it should've become clear at that stage to someone as insightful as you already how the ZAR would worsen? LOL!!!
2. You still avoid the facts huh! I can see you're a youngster, and you were probably not aware of the fact that moving funds is a legacy policy, so i forgive you. I guess that you wouldn't even realise that this very policy you dislike, saved our skins big time in SA.
3. The $$ wont be the currency of choice for much longer.
4. So we load shed. Wow!! hasn't affected me in the least. ..."prolongs the inevitable...". What is the "inevitable"? care to elaborate on this prediction? Not fact, but "prediction".
5. Well then we can hardly say that the cream of the crop left SA....for goodness sake!!
6. I wouldn't know, but you probably speak from experience.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Darko said:


> 1. LOL!! hahahaha. I took a similar bet with someone just like you that the rand would not hit 20:1 (30:1 was even suggested) by end of 2008. Guess who won! So what is your prediction for end of 2009? Not fact...but prediction. Why didn't you emigrate in 1981 when it should've become clear at that stage to someone as insightful as you already how the ZAR would worsen? LOL!!!
> 2. You still avoid the facts huh! I can see you're a youngster, and you were probably not aware of the fact that moving funds is a legacy policy, so i forgive you. I guess that you wouldn't even realise that this very policy you dislike, saved our skins big time in SA.
> 3. The $$ wont be the currency of choice for much longer.
> 4. So we load shed. Wow!! hasn't affected me in the least. ..."prolongs the inevitable...". What is the "inevitable"? care to elaborate on this prediction? Not fact, but "prediction".
> ...


1. 15 - Its where the R/£ should be currently. I was only 9 so its was a little difficult.
2. That's what I said... NATS ANC two sides of the same coin. I think it is you who misunderstood.
3. Perhaps it will be the Yen or the Euro.... $=Money not a particular currency.
4. I'm alright Jack attitude - You fit into SA well. Its a slow process -> 10-20 years to emulate Nigeria/Kenya.
5. I never said that.
6. Only from what I hear from people that
a. Still live there
b. Are now here or back at home in the UK


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## Darko (May 6, 2009)

Halo said:


> 1. 15 - Its where the R/£ should be currently. I was only 9 so its was a little difficult.
> 2. Thats what I said... NATS ANC who sides of the same coin. I think it is you who mis-understood.
> 3. Perhaps it will be the Yen or the Euro.... $=Money not a particular currency.
> 4. I'm alright Jack attitude - You fit into SA well. Its a slow process -> 10-20 years to emulate Nigerian/Kenyan.
> ...


1. What model was used in determining "15"? I can suggest a few for you to use, but they will yield a lower ratio. I would be interested in knowing how you calculated this. Seriously.
2. That still doesn't explain why it's a push factor. Pls explain why millions upon millions would want to emigrate because of this?
3. ok
4. 10-20 yrs....you should've covered yourself. if i were you i would've said 10-200 yrs. That way you could never be proven wrong. 
5. Well then no loss to SA really.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Darko said:


> 1. What model was used in determining "15"? I can suggest a few for you to use, but they will yield a lower ratio. I would be interested in knowing how you calculated this. Seriously.
> 2. That still doesn't explain why it's a push factor. Pls explain why millions upon millions would want to emigrate because of this?
> 3. ok
> 4. 10-20 yrs....you should've covered yourself. if i were you i would've said 10-200 yrs. That way you could never be proven wrong.
> 5. Well then no loss to SA really.


1. Value of commodities...... Its the amount that actually benefits SA due to foreign purchases/manufacture etc - 15-1 does not = bad.
2. Millions and Millions can't leave or don't know any better.
3. -
4. Don't need to - I already have... left early ninties and never looked back - The deterioration is for all to see but due to SA's natural resources and skilled labour force it will be slow.
5. Its always a loss.

I have children - GB,OZ,Canada,USA,Europe are just better options.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Actually Darko, how do you live without predictions?

I look at all the facts to hand, historical and current and then predict constantly what my turnover will be in a month,three months a year, 5 years etc...
I have to take into account socio economics, material supply and demand and a whole host of other factors 
I've been doing it for about 40 years, sofar pretty successfully.
I do the same thing in my personal life too, as to wether my health will last the period of the mortgage, to go for fixed or variable, as to whatweather will be likely for our Holiday etc..

SA has a 50/50 chance..
It could go either way, and I sincerely hope it goes the right way as it would be a pity to see a lifeswork destroyed by a failed woodworker.

One of the predictions you castigated about was the Civil War in 94,

How much do you actually know about that period?
Specifically the two major factions in the ANC at that time?


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## Darko (May 6, 2009)

Daxk said:


> Actually Darko, how do you live without predictions?
> 
> I look at all the facts to hand, historical and current and then predict constantly what my turnover will be in a month,three months a year, 5 years etc...
> I have to take into account socio economics, material supply and demand and a whole host of other factors
> ...


Daxk, you're actually right. Predictions / personal expectations based on a best guess must definitely play a part. And I think you're right on the money again regarding the 50/50 chance that SA has.

You bring business / your personal business in as a comparison - fair point again. But predictions in business "should" usually be based on factors which affect your business - a lot of the time, the direction of which, is normally within your control as a business owner. There is also an element of external factors which will affect your business directly / indirectly which are outside your control, for sure. But remember, when making business forecasts (and say you're in the electronics industry in SA) you will not forecast your business success / failure based on the success / failure in the Brazilian coffee indiustry. I liken this to people's predictions of SA's failure based on past failures in Zambia / Malawi etc.

So yes, predictions must be made - but reasonably so. 

Furthermore, you seem very intelligent and experienced (life and business) and whilst you have said that you have been successful at your business forecasts, how successful have some "SA haters" been at predicting the doom of SA? Not so well from some predictions I have read: Firstly, the civil war in 94 never quite transpired (still hasn't); we've hosted successful sporting events; infrastrucure (contrary to popular belief) is being heavily upgraded; We DID receive the nod from FIFA for the SWC2010; We are currently hosting a succesful IPL; The Rand did NOT reach 30 or even 20 to 1 against the GBP; we had a bloodless election this year etc etc etc. To me the "SA hater" is the one who desperately waits for one of his apocalyptic predictions to come true, and thus far, nothing.

So whilst your predictions / forecasts in business have been on the money, can you say the same about your / rather, the "SA Haters" predictions about SA? When you get bombarded by apocalyptic predictions about SA from "SA haters" - and these predictions never transpire - then how seriously should we take them? It's tiresome - and then the "SA Hater" gets VERY surprised when labelled as such. I think their surprise, surprises me more.

I also sincerely hope that SA swings to the positive side of the 50/50. I certainly know it wont be easy. 

I know not as much as you do about the 1994 period re the factions.

Bear in mind, I'd like to think that I'm not an idiot and that I could leave whenever I wanted to. My personal opinion is that right now, SA is VERY liveable and my lifestyle has improved. I could however not tell you whether I would feel the same way had I not had most of my friends and family here.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

At lease you have a British PP and can leave -> Many can't


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Darko said:


> ) you will not forecast your business success / failure based on the success / failure in the Brazilian coffee indiustry. I liken this to people's predictions of SA's failure based on past failures in Zambia / Malawi etc.
> 
> , how successful have some "SA haters" been at predicting the doom of SA? Not so well from some predictions I have read: Firstly, the civil war in 94 never quite transpired (still hasn't); we've hosted successful sporting events; infrastrucure (contrary to popular belief) is being heavily upgraded; We DID receive the nod from FIFA for the SWC2010; We are currently hosting a succesful IPL; The Rand did NOT reach 30 or even 20 to 1 against the GBP; we had a bloodless election this year etc etc etc. To me the "SA hater" is the one who desperately waits for one of his apocalyptic predictions to come true, and thus far, nothing.
> 
> .


Darko, As you dont like essays I reduced your quote to the bits i'd like to answer.

If I were in the Coffee growing business and growing a similar type of Bean as , say, Brazil. and the fertiliser they used over time stunted their crop and killed off
their plants ,and my Farm manager started using the same fertiliser in SA, could I predict something?

I admit, not many predictions have come true.
but lets take some close calls that I have personal knowledge of.

If the 6 Generals in the SADF had not backed down when the Citizen Force Generals refused to back their threat of a Miltary Coup we would have had a white on white conflict.
Do some research.

The Hani assasination plan was reported to Int by an informer who passed it on to the "exiles" group who chose to ignore it as it removed a very powerful Rival and more importantly destroyed any bargaining advantage the "White" Forces had.
The Far right Afrikaner Groups were virtually on lockdown during those 48 hours.

The ANC were split into two factions, the "Exiles" and the Operations group known as the "Vula" group.
The Vula Group stockpiled arms and ammunition that was brought in through Mocambique to Swaziland, the AK47's came from one particular factory in China and are easily recognisable as the Stamp forge had some damage and every AK that came out during only that manufacturing period had a nick in the casing.
Members of Vula were JZ and Robert McBride who supervised the siting of the arms caches.
The "Exiles" (Govan, Joel, Kgalema )realised that the Vula group was making a power play were planning a Military strike.
They got the Nats to lock them up.
Do some research.

As an aside,one of the AK 47's removed from Macbrides Boot carried the famous nick mark and was pristine, brand new, as if it had never been used and just come out of the Box after the accident in 2006.

The £ at 30:1?
You too are an intelligent man is there no incident in SA that could panic the financial markets? or 

No Foreign Government or Business group that could force a shortsell currency fluctuation?
I distinctly recall the Rand bouncing to 19:1 in a week not too long ago,(I thought 21 but the Sauber only shows 19)

A peaceful election? yep! amazed! the last time someone challenged the ANC there were bodies littering KZN and Gauteng, 
The IFP and ANC a huge number, the stats are available.
This time round there was the same type of bellicose rhetoric spouted.

Agreed, not all predictions will come to pass, but I also switched my computer off at 23.59 31/12/99, just in case.
And I did buy more tinned food than usual and condensed milk and some parafin lamps in 94, just in case.
And I do carry a first aid case in my car, just in case 
because once in a while a prediction comes true.
and I'm a Boy Scout, I like being prepared.



.


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## Darko (May 6, 2009)

Daxk said:


> Darko, As you dont like essays I reduced your quote to the bits i'd like to answer.
> 
> If I were in the Coffee growing business and growing a similar type of Bean as , say, Brazil. and the fertiliser they used over time stunted their crop and killed off
> their plants ,and my Farm manager started using the same fertiliser in SA, could I predict something?
> ...


Nice example on the farming. I though we were talking about SA though? 

The fact remains that most of the apocalyptic predictions have amounted to nothing.

Regarding being a boy scout and being prepared - have you collected tinned foods and stored them in your nuclear fallout bunker yet? You never know if Russias or Iran's arsenal could get past Trident.

You know...just in case.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

"Regarding being a boy scout and being prepared - have you collected tinned foods and stored them in your nuclear fallout bunker yet? You never know if Russias or Iran's arsenal could get past Trident.

You know...just in case. "

Funny you should ask that....


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## Darko (May 6, 2009)

Daxk said:


> "Regarding being a boy scout and being prepared - have you collected tinned foods and stored them in your nuclear fallout bunker yet? You never know if Russias or Iran's arsenal could get past Trident.
> 
> You know...just in case. "
> 
> Funny you should ask that....


Pls tell me you're joking!! :lol:


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Who knows,,,, when your spleen is part of a muti - You tell me.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Darko said:


> Pls tell me you're joking!! :lol:


AND.......... some green 3d wraparound dark glasses in case of Alien Invasion from Pleides.

I used to tie a rope around my mothers middle in case the rapture happened while she was driving, I knew I was already disqualified and might be left in a driverless car coming down from Chapmans Peak.
One can never be prepared enough.


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## TheLastBaron (Mar 27, 2009)

Daxk said:


> Baron:"My signed, sealed contract has no skills transfer clause, as it is a German-based contract and such a clause would be illegal here. "
> 
> So you wont be asked to mentor and train someone up to take your place in case you should decide to leave?
> There is no Training or assistance in your Job description?


There is a 3-month training period integral. However, there is also an interesting clause which reads that I am in no way expected to or obligated to train others. Some companies still believe in having professionals train, as it goes a long way towards combatting exactly the type of behavior you describe, which I am quite familiar with as it is an import from the U.S.

I am also not permitted to leave before the first two years unless I wish to repay moving and immigration costs.


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## TheLastBaron (Mar 27, 2009)

Klebe said:


> Please do not call me dear...you do not know me from a bar of soap.
> 
> "The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and putting things in it."
> 
> ...


I like your attitude. Some people have closed minds from birth on. And instad of shying away from people and retreating to caves 8as was the way in the old days, viz. St. Gallarus and his famous Oratory in Dingle), they insist on injecting their venom and vitriol everywhere they can. Daxk would probably also regard that stunning Hollywood "classic" (-choke-) "Snakes on a Plane" as being within the realm of realistically possible...

I arrive in CPT late next month. So far, I have met some lovely people in person and on-line. As I grew up in large (ooooh, scary!) cities and have traveled and lived in many cultures and environments all of my life, I expect I will soon get accustomed to CPT and what exists in danger. Common sense is not something I lack, so I expect I will be fine, even if there are some things which may/may not prove unsettling.


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## TheLastBaron (Mar 27, 2009)

Darko said:


> I've seen "advice" like that from the "SA Haters" before.
> 
> 1st piece of advice:
> 
> ...


Judging how much time Daxk has to spend answering every single post in this and many other threads, I have wondered if he isn't retired, bored out of his wits in rural Ireland and has an internet flat rate - all a perfect combination for his "saintly" advice to anyone who dares to express an inkling of going to or returning to SA. Same for a host of others here...

Glad to know not all are doomsayers and "I told you so"s.


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## TheLastBaron (Mar 27, 2009)

Halo said:


> Dear Baron von Munchhausen.... How can someone like myself who have had family members killed (and this is not just a botched robbery - Hijacked, beaten, ending up in a black bag) seen the deterioration..... sit back and not tell those (especially with children) that SA is a good place to migrate to.
> 
> Truth is truth... perhaps you're not affected and for this I am grateful. Others on the other hand are not so lucky.


Dear Halo: Your reference to the good Baron Münchausen escapes me not - however, I am not lying or spinning tall tales, for I have no reason to. I am in fact a true Baron (the 43rd in my line), which accounts for nothing these days, and have no need to augment what has been a pretty wild ride through life so far.

Responding to your question about crime: Sorry for your loss. My uncle ended up being identified from his dental records after being found after a public holiday by his cleaning lady, strapped to the chair he was beaten to death in in his own apartment in one of Berlin's ritziest segments since the perpetrator apparently was trying to beat something out of him. Another cousin was raped brutally multiple times in Belfast by British soldiers. In neither case were the perpetrators caught.

In the events that have personally affected me, yes I have been held up at knife-point (actually, knife at my neck from behind) while walking in Washington's Rock Creek Park; I have had a gun pointed directly at me from another car and have experienced other unpleasantries which put the fear of something into me at the time. 

Nonetheless, I have managed to remain positive, keep my wits about me and remain able to cope. Perhaps South Africa will change that, but I choose to believe the opposite.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

TheLastBaron said:


> Judging how much time Daxk has to spend answering every single post in this and many other threads, I have wondered if he isn't retired, bored out of his wits in rural Ireland and has an internet flat rate - all a perfect combination for his "saintly" advice to anyone who dares to express an inkling of going to or returning to SA. Same for a host of others here...
> 
> Glad to know not all are doomsayers and "I told you so"s.


AAh Last baron, thought you had dissapeared.
You are almost right, I am in my 3rd retirement but found an interesting little niche market that had been overlooked so I have another little factory in process.
and yes, my internet and home phone package are flat rate and very good.I also enjoy talking/discussing/debating and have been doing since about 1996,

rural ireland is Quiet,in fact its very much like rural South Africa in the years that 
I grew up in and very much like the little town I intended to retire in SA.
So yes, you got those right,

Bored? I have'nt been bored in decades,I doubt I will ever get bored,
I come across something that interests me and that leads somewhere else,its fascinating.

Now,once again your arrogance displays, I dont care wether people go to SA, and i'd like you to show me where i have said that they should'nt, on all these fora I inhabit.

In fact LB,I would rather you did,I want SA to succeed,I want it to become the paradise it could so easily be, 
and SA, because of crime more than anything else,has a major skills shortage,LB,
not because it grew .
So it needs skills like yours and the others who come on here, and I have no problem with that.
I also have no problem with a mentoring phase from the skilled expats not because it takes jobs away from me, AA has never affected me and neither did BEE, and its not that I deny the need for AA mentoring because eventually,your contract will end and you will go back to wherever you wished to.
at least you will have left SA a better place.

So in terms of you (and Klebes comment) it's not that I wish to persuade you or convince, you will either go and leave without having experienced anything violent or you will experience something that shakes you to the core of your existence.
You're an adult. its your choice.

But!!!!
Having never lived in Germany if I were to parade my 2nd hand knowledge coupled with some holidays that I enjoyed there and attacked you and other peoples experiences, and did so arrogantly, then the conversation would be very similar to that we have had.

What lights my candle is when people BS or try and minimise the danger ,especially to children, and I'll give you an example.

An Foreign Contract worker's wife spots what appears to be a home invasion going on, she calls the armed response company and is then still in the driveway when they arrive.
A gunfight ensues and they lose their daughter.
A South African would have gotten the hell out of there and THEN phoned.
I dont blame the parents, how can you?

I do however blame whoever did the risk briefing and training which all Contract workers and their Families should get.

CT is safer, I dont know why, yes, a 40 yo lady did get abducted from Constantia Village a week or so ago but the cops got her back,
people do get hit in CT as well as anywhere else in SA, but it seems to be less violent?
enjoy, lost baron,it is a beautiful Country, everyone loves it, some of us just have an undying love.


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## TheLastBaron (Mar 27, 2009)

Daxk said:


> AAh Last baron, thought you had dissapeared.
> You are almost right, I am in my 3rd retirement but found an interesting little niche market that had been overlooked so I have another little factory in process.
> and yes, my internet and home phone package are flat rate and very good.I also enjoy talking/discussing/debating and have been doing since about 1996,
> 
> ...


Hi, we seem to be getting closer to an understanding, it would appear. 

As an American-German dual-national (by quirk of birth, my mother is Irish!) I think we may have more in common than you might suppose. I have been moving around the globe myself; my move back to Germany was motivated by disgust at the U.S. which I lived in for 20 years as a hard-working hotelier/chef de cuisine until it all got to be too much. Germany turned out to be less than ideal as this country has gotten very, very flakey since I left it in the late 1980s and the constant immigration of "Russian Germans" is making things much, much worse. Many of them are hard-working, wonderful people, but for each of those there seems to be at least a half-dozen of the kind no one would want anywhere. I wanted to move to Switzerland, but there is little work there, as here, for someone in his 50s, so the offer from South Africa was welcome, even if the crime, corruption and other problems might seem more offputting than welcoming to some.

I have been following the news reports about CPT and think that with some common sense it should be a good place, even though getting used to burglar bars and being careful about coming in at night, etc. will require a little getting used to, as will many other things I currently know nothing about.

You are very right to assume that anyone with common sense should have driven away and called the police from safety, as almost every guidebook and website I have read/perused so far advises. I guess some people do not react well in a crisis... and the cost was the death of a daughter. Very sad, indeed.

My sister is retiring to her cottage in Donegal in August and has been doing missionary work in Uganda for several years now, so I guess I feel less daunted by SA's problems than some.

Peace,

TLB

By the way, can you tell me what (I hope I spell it right) "Voets toots" means? I've tried finding it on Afrikaans translating sites but no luck. Thanks.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

voetstoets means without warranty, as you find it, if you buy a car and 5 minutes later it dies, you have no recourse, no claim against the seller.
Not recommended if you ned reliable transport


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Forgot it also means it has no Roadworthy Certificate (MOT) and costs and repairs to get one would be your problem.
without a Roadworthy Cert you cannot register,Licence(tax) or insure the vehicle.


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## TheLastBaron (Mar 27, 2009)

Daxk said:


> voetstoets means without warranty, as you find it, if you buy a car and 5 minutes later it dies, you have no recourse, no claim against the seller.
> Not recommended if you ned reliable transport


Thanks, I thought it might but it helps to be positive. Luckily not looking at a voetstoets vehicle yet...


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

But as Head Chef will the last Baron know how to make Monkey Gland Sauce?


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## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

Daxk said:


> But as Head Chef will the last Baron know how to make Monkey Gland Sauce?


MONKEY GLAND SAUCE
1 cup fruit chutney (Mrs Balls if possible!) 
3 tablespoons dry red wine
3 tablespoons tawny port 
2 tablespoons salted butter
1 teaspoon Tabasco sauce
1/2 teaspoon ground black pepper
1/2 teaspoon Colgins liquid smoke food flavouring
1/2 teaspoon of Coarse salt 
Combine all ingredients in a heavy, cast iron saucepan over medium-high heat and bring to a boil. Reduce heat to medium and simmer the sauce until the chutney dissolves and the sauce is rich, stirring every 5-10 minutes. For a chunky sauce, serve as is. You can send through a magimix if you want it to be smooth. Use right away or keep in a jar and refrigerate. The sauce will keep for several weeks, but remember to bring to room temperature before serving.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Hey Zimtony, Spoilsport!!!!


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## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

Sorry Daxk, just didn't want to see him struggle!


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## TheLastBaron (Mar 27, 2009)

Zimtony said:


> Sorry Daxk, just didn't want to see him struggle!


Very kind of you... and no, not being overly familiar with South African cuisine yet, I had no idea. Sounds like a very, um, interwsting dish. Ugh. I'd place it on a par with fried calf's brains with green sauce. Bleagh.

TLB :clap2:


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## TheLastBaron (Mar 27, 2009)

Daxk said:


> Forgot it also means it has no Roadworthy Certificate (MOT) and costs and repairs to get one would be your problem.
> without a Roadworthy Cert you cannot register,Licence(tax) or insure the vehicle.


Thanks again. Was aware of RWC as I had first thought of bringing a more recent used car from the UK and then discovered all the fun with RWC, the prohibitive import taxes in RSA and so forth. I'm amazed that RSA seems to be so protective of a used car market which seems to thrive on old beaters with 200K+ plus KMs on them when recent model Rovers, MGs and similar are being dumped in the UK for under 1000 Pounds and would be perfect down there...

TLB


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

if you are doing Steaks for a south african Clientele you will be asked for Monkey Gland sauce.

Story started with the Chef at the Carlton Hotel in Johannesburg which was THE place to dine in the 50's and 60's became irritated that his clientele who always ordered Steak and were'nt particularly sophisticated, were continually asking for a sauce that was'nt bland,
In a fit of anger one night he threw whatever sauces were leftover as well some wine and sherry and port into a jug, put it in the fridge and served it the next night to his most troublesome Customers table calling it Monkey Gland sauce as he figured they were too stupid to notice..
it was a hit.
The word spead and he then somehow managed to re-create it and
it became the most asked for Sauce to go with Steak.


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## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

Also make sure that you offer bacon and banana toasted sandwiches on your snack menu!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Zimtony said:


> Also make sure that you offer bacon and banana toasted sandwiches on your snack menu!



:yuck::wacko:

Jo


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## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

jojo said:


> :yuck::wacko:
> 
> Jo


Now Jo, you are not knocking them are you? If you haven't ever tried it, do some bacon, chop up a banane and place them all between 2 slices of bread. Toast on a Breveille or similar toastie machine. Try it, then let me know your thoughts!

Maybe you could sell the secret recipe to Piknics???????????


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## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

Zimtony said:


> Now Jo, you are not knocking them are you? If you haven't ever tried it, do some bacon, chop up a banane and place them all between 2 slices of bread. Toast on a Breveille or similar toastie machine. Try it, then let me know your thoughts!
> 
> Maybe you could sell the secret recipe to Piknics???????????


By the way, a bacon and banana toasted sandwich in South Africa is as normal a feature on a snack menu as toasted cheese and ham in Spain!


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## TheLastBaron (Mar 27, 2009)

Daxk said:


> if you are doing Steaks for a south african Clientele you will be asked for Monkey Gland sauce.
> 
> Story started with the Chef at the Carlton Hotel in Johannesburg which was THE place to dine in the 50's and 60's became irritated that his clientele who always ordered Steak and were'nt particularly sophisticated, were continually asking for a sauce that was'nt bland,
> In a fit of anger one night he threw whatever sauces were leftover as well some wine and sherry and port into a jug, put it in the fridge and served it the next night to his most troublesome Customers table calling it Monkey Gland sauce as he figured they were too stupid to notice..
> ...


Cool, similar to the story of the creation of authentic Caesar salad... 
After rereading the recipe it sounds like it might be quite tasty...


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## TheLastBaron (Mar 27, 2009)

Zimtony said:


> Now Jo, you are not knocking them are you? If you haven't ever tried it, do some bacon, chop up a banane and place them all between 2 slices of bread. Toast on a Breveille or similar toastie machine. Try it, then let me know your thoughts!
> 
> Maybe you could sell the secret recipe to Piknics???????????


FACT: Elvis Presly died while sitting on the toilet and eating a bacon, peanut butter and banana sandwich, his favorite. 

Since I detest bananas (the smell alone can make me wretch), I doubt I will be trying them anytime soon. Now bacon & peanut butter I have tried and while greasy, they do have something going for them...:hungry:


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## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

TheLastBaron said:


> FACT: Elvis Presly died while sitting on the toilet and eating a bacon, peanut butter and banana sandwich, his favorite.
> 
> Since I detest bananas (the smell alone can make me wretch), I doubt I will be trying them anytime soon. Now bacon & peanut butter I have tried and while greasy, they do have something going for them...:hungry:


Hey LB, now I hope you are not suggesting that the Kings great choice in toilet snacks (now that *does* sound disgusting!!) had anything to do with his sad demise??? I have never tried it with peanut butter, but maybe I will take a chance and go for it! So long as I don't end up like Elvis...................


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Zimtony said:


> Now Jo, you are not knocking them are you? If you haven't ever tried it, do some bacon, chop up a banane and place them all between 2 slices of bread. Toast on a Breveille or similar toastie machine. Try it, then let me know your thoughts!
> 
> Maybe you could sell the secret recipe to Piknics???????????


hhmmm, sadly i have something called Coeliacs disease so I cant do the bread... evenso, bananas and bacon.... nah! its too wierd, its kind of a pregnancy thing isnt it!!!!

I'll mention it to Kate from Pikniks, I'll warn her about strange SA men with strange tastes....!!!!!! Have you been in Pik niks yet?? nice but a bit pricey!!??

Jo xxx


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Zimtony said:


> Hey LB, now I hope you are not suggesting that the Kings great choice in toilet snacks (now that *does* sound disgusting!!) had anything to do with his sad demise??? I have never tried it with peanut butter, but maybe I will take a chance and go for it! So long as I don't end up like Elvis...................


FFS, it gets worse!!!!  (we need a vomiting smiley)

Jo xxx


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## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

jojo said:


> hhmmm, sadly i have something called Coeliacs disease so I cant do the bread... evenso, bananas and bacon.... nah! its too wierd, its kind of a pregnancy thing isnt it!!!!
> 
> I'll mention it to Kate from Pikniks, I'll warn her about strange SA men with strange tastes....!!!!!! Have you been in Pik niks yet?? nice but a bit pricey!!??
> 
> Jo xxx


I am sure I am not pregnant!!! Strange things happen here in Alhaurin el Grande, but that is going too far!! I can't keep my kids out of Pikniks! They love the cakes! I have been past and stuck my head in, but haven't sampled the wares yet. Have you been up a few times then? I keep checking out for you when I drive past, but haven't seen you.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Hell yes! Bacon&Banana is great!
as is Banana with a good mayonaisse on fresh bread.
but then banana goes with curry too.

Biltong sandwiches too, which is raw meat, salted, washed with vinegar,spiced with coriander and black pepper then wind dried , find a South African, say Biltong or Boerewors (farmers sausage) and watch them drool.

Peanut Butter with syrup or Honey is also a great favourite.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Zimtony said:


> I am sure I am not pregnant!!! Strange things happen here in Alhaurin el Grande, but that is going too far!! I can't keep my kids out of Pikniks! They love the cakes! I have been past and stuck my head in, but haven't sampled the wares yet. Have you been up a few times then? I keep checking out for you when I drive past, but haven't seen you.


I've been there a few times, usually with the kids after school as a treat, and Kate made a cake for us last weekend when my family were over WOW!!! 

I know, I'll go there with my daughter after school tomorrow, my sons off on a school trip so me and ruby will have cake to console ourselves!! , we'll sit outside!!! So if you're passing, say hi!!!!

Jo xxx


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## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

Daxk said:


> Hell yes! Bacon&Banana is great!
> as is Banana with a good mayonaisse on fresh bread.
> but then banana goes with curry too.
> 
> ...


Hey Daxk, not sure what your suplies are like in Ireland, but even here on Spains sunny south coast, there are good supplies of SA goods. We even have a South African bar, The Boma, in our little inland town. They do their own biltong, boerewors, droëwors, melktert etc! And we get to watch the Super Sevens!!


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## Zimtony (Jun 28, 2008)

jojo said:


> I've been there a few times, usually with the kids after school as a treat, and Kate made a cake for us last weekend when my family were over WOW!!!
> 
> I know, I'll go there with my daughter after school tomorrow, my sons off on a school trip so me and ruby will have cake to console ourselves!! , we'll sit outside!!! So if you're passing, say hi!!!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Will do! I will be the guy in a sparkly latex jumpsuit, with long sideburns, singing Jailhouse Rock, whilst munching on a weird sandwich!! BTW where do you kids go to school?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Daxk said:


> Hell yes! Bacon&Banana is great!
> as is Banana with a good mayonaisse on fresh bread.
> but then banana goes with curry too.
> 
> ...



NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Yuk!

Jo xxx


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Zimtoney, very good supply,becuae South Africa had a huge influx of Irish immigrants in the 1800 famine, there are a huge amount of south Africans here, my butcher makes superb Boerewors as he was taught by a guy from Bloemfontein, I make my own Biltong using a drying cabinet wife makes superb milkterts and my Chili bites and bunny Chows are a hit at every school fete,

Jo, I assume your Nooo is to do with Biltong (also known as American Jerky?)
its not an aquired taste, it is seriously superb, I dont know of anyone who has'nt tried it and liked it.
And it has no Gluten!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Daxk said:


> Zimtoney, very good supply,becuae South Africa had a huge influx of Irish immigrants in the 1800 famine, there are a huge amount of south Africans here, my butcher makes superb Boerewors as he was taught by a guy from Bloemfontein, I make my own Biltong using a drying cabinet wife makes superb milkterts and my Chili bites and bunny Chows are a hit at every school fete,
> 
> Jo, I assume your Nooo is to do with Biltong (also known as American Jerky?)
> its not an aquired taste, it is seriously superb, I dont know of anyone who has'nt tried it and liked it.
> And it has no Gluten!



NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOO was for peanut butter with honey or syrup???? :tape2:


Jo xxx


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Local knowledge is that the local knows that if you act aggressively you stand a good chance of being shot. 


"Earlier that evening, four British tourists had arrived at OR Tambo International Airport ahead of today's opening Test in the three-Test British and Irish Lions tour of the country."

They were followed to where they were staying the night, then beaten up and robbed.
"A black Mercedes-Benz boxed us in and four men appeared with guns. They surrounded our car. They ordered us out of the car and told us to lie on the floor and remove our wallets and watches."

He tried to grab one of the robbers' guns but was punched in the nose"


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

Daxk said:


> Local knowledge is that the local knows that if you act aggressively you stand a good chance of being shot.
> 
> 
> "Earlier that evening, four British tourists had arrived at OR Tambo International Airport ahead of today's opening Test in the three-Test British and Irish Lions tour of the country."
> ...


Lucky his alive to tell the tale....


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## Iceman1976za (Jun 22, 2009)

Daxk said:


> Zimtoney, very good supply,becuae South Africa had a huge influx of Irish immigrants in the 1800 famine, there are a huge amount of south Africans here, my butcher makes superb Boerewors as he was taught by a guy from Bloemfontein, I make my own Biltong using a drying cabinet wife makes superb milkterts and my Chili bites and bunny Chows are a hit at every school fete,
> !


Hi Daxk, I actually tried a few weeks ago, making my own biltong, personally thought it would be a failure but it tasted JUST LIKE HOME Biltong I used beef but will try Ostrich in the coming months. Since living here I also make quite a bit of curries, from seafood to mince to chicken


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Yeah Iceman, I'm pretty impressed with the taste of my Biltong too.
be well!


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

I think this hit a Bullseye today.

this was in response to a Expats are SA haters and cowards post.
And I do have permission to quote it.

"John, do you think it is easy to leave your country. You have no idea. How many time have I seen grandparents holding their grandchildren at OR Tambo. Then you hear the parent say. Don’t worry we just a phone call away, but in their eyes you can see nobody believe that. It heartbreaking. To give everything you loved and owned. The house you renovated, the motorcycle you loved so much. No to mention your friends. You would not believe how stressful it’s to start in a new country. These people are refugees not immigrants. They give up a lot to ensure a future for them and their children. They also feel angry the people and government of this country made it necessary to move. Once they left they are liberated from the burden to pretend that thing is not so bad and hence became more outspoken. Then can stop B-S themselves that things in SA will be different from most of Africa. They do need to be positive for their kids sake. They no longer need to watch what the say otherwise they may loose there job or being labelled a racist. There are many people how can not leave. You can not just walk over the border as you can do in SA. You need a visa which is difficult to get if you do not have the correct skills or you to old (like me) or you can not afford it. They need to try to stay positive and pretend things are OK, but you no they not. No John the cowards are the ones who do nothing and just sit here and hope things will improve. Even worse are the ones that say the stay to make a difference. They staying and staying and I see no difference. And why you hate them so much is because you do not want to here the truth. It is like a smoker who does not want to hear the smoking is bad."


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

TheLastBaron said:


> Well, maybe instead of griping so much from afar about what RSA has become, w*ouldn't the responsible thing be for all of you to return to your country and start fixing it?* If RSA is as bad as all of you claim (mind you, um, all 3 or 4 I have found so far here), then why are many, many people moving there these days? Perhaps, to put it in a nutshell, it's because things are not rosy _anywhere_ anymore. And throwing up your hands and saying "it changed" is a cheap shot. .



I saw this thread this morning and have to apologise for not reading the entire thread contents and only responding to the part I emphasized.

Baron, I think South Africans, in their own our stupid way, tried to fix their own country. However, the "world" would not allow it.

South Africans took ownership and responsibility for something* that did not belong to them*. South Africans inherited Apartheid, a system born under British colonial rule of South Africa, after they stole the country for it's riches.

Being inexperienced, rather stupid and naive at the game of exploitation, they took responsibility and declared their own form of discrimination official, they thought it fit not to practice discrimination and racism "under the blanket" as other countries do! Big mistake, peeved off the British Crown and the “winds of change” began to blow! They sanctioned South Africa to death, and brought a once flourishing country, that could have sorted out it’s own racial problems in time, to it’s knees! A Monarch, wearing the Cullinan diamond in her Crown Jewels, just had to make a point. She entertains racist, mass murderer, Robert Mugabe at her pleasure at functions but sanctioned South Africa to death. Why the inconsistency in foreign policy?

Racism and discrimination is morally wrong but it is a reality of daily life in the world, why single out South Africa? Because the gullible became smart for their own profit and no longer wanted to fund your unethical global escapades? 

The only way South Africans will ever fix their own country, and the rest of Africa for that matter, is by getting rid of the corrupt, murderous, blood sucking monarchies and world financiers, who discriminate against us on an intellectual basis (how politically correct is that?) by flaming ethnic conflict. If only Africa and Africans could stop and smell the coffee, stop killing each other about race and intellect, claim ownership of what is rightfully theirs, claim back Africa’s riches, it’s rich reserves of diamonds, gold, oil, copper, etc and insist that they get paid market related prices for their labour and products. If only we were not so gullible, being manipulated and marketed as the only racists in the world. 

The racism and discrimination outside of the African continent is rife, subtle, sophisticated and deadly, economic tide dictates favour, not race. Just ask the Chinese.


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

South Africans also made a *second attempt to “fix” their own country*. They voted for the end of discrimination.



> Never, never and never again shall it be that this beautiful land will again experience the oppression of one by another. Nelson Mandela


I guess Black on Black racism, Black on White racism, genocide, ethnic cleansing, ongoing exploitation of cheap black labour, is not classified as oppression these days.


Baron, what can be done to “fix” South Africa?



Pressurise the British Empire to take responsibility for introducing a system to exploit cheap black labour. 
Empower the South African Police force to deal with crime


Is the current government doing that?


Meanwhile, the next generation of the De Beers Empire, now listed on the London Stock Exchange, is wooing a new mistress, I wonder why?



> Nicky Oppenheimer , Chairman of De Beers, for over 100 yrs the hub of a Global Diamond Empire meets the current, *most powerful ANC politicians* to open Diamond World, a theme park devoted to the commodity that built South Africa, diamonds.
> 
> Then, as now, the State and de Beers stand firmly at each other’s side, only this time, the State is Black. *At the height of it’s power, De Beers controlled over 90% of the world’s diamonds, it was one of the world’s most successful monopolies in history and it was built on the backs of cheap, black labour. * De Beers’ mines made use of the segregated compound system, miners were virtual prisoners until their contracts were up. They made use of the pass laws, once released from the compounds, miners had no free movement in the country.
> 
> ...


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

JoziJoe said:


> Pressurise the British Empire to take responsibility for introducing a system to exploit cheap black labour.


Its statements like this which hold Africa back.... Japan gets nuked (twice) and it picks itself up..... Take some self responsibility.


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Halo said:


> Its statements like this which hold Africa back.... Japan gets nuked (twice) and it picks itself up..... Take some self responsibility.


The British blame the white South Africans for Apartheid, they inspired rioiting at rugby games and even went to extent of making movies to manipulate the world into thinking white South Africans instituted Apartheid in South Africa. Do you know anything about true South African history?


The British implemented the system and De Beers utilised the system for cheap black labour to mine the diamond mines.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

JoziJoe said:


> Do you know anything about true South African history?


Sadly - Yes..... Had the misfortune of living there for 20 years.



JoziJoe said:


> The British implemented the system and De Beers utilised the system for cheap black labour to mine the diamond mines.


Tsk Tsk - Similar to African slave labour or perhaps Russian/Chinese oppression... Perhaps you should draft a letter to King Jong-il. 

Pick yourself up son - How far do you want to play the blame game.


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Halo said:


> Sadly - Yes..... Had the misfortune of living there for 20 years.


Finally! I have a real live specimen British subject *admitting *they lived in South Africa* during the Apartheid era,* reaping all the benefits, just like other white South Africans!! Did you have a Maid, Gardener, etc and what did you pay them per month? Wow, this is a find!


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

JoziJoe said:


> Finally! I have a real live specimen British subject *admitting *they lived in South Africa* during the Apartheid era,* reaping all the benefits, just like other white South Africans!! Did you have a Maid, Gardener, etc and what did you pay them per month? Wow, this is a find!


The usual inane reply one expects....


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Halo said:


> Its statements like this which hold Africa back.... Japan gets nuked (twice) and it picks itself up..... Take some self responsibility.


Let's not lose touch with reality here, my minute, lonesome, futile cry is not what is strangling Africa to death, *Colonial Hipocrisy* is causing it! It's the perfect solution to disguise major exploitation of cheap black labour. 

Where else in the world can you get human beings that are so desperate that they will dig 5 tons of earth by hand for diamonds and get paid the price of a slice of bread? Refugees fleeing from conflict are even better, because they are more desperate, will probably work for an actual slice of bread! Just ask Robert Mugabe, he perfected the strategy!

British Hiprocrisy destroyed Zimbabwe, the once flourishing bread basket of Africa! British Hiprocrisy forced South Africa to it's knees! Why should I perpetuate British Hiprocrisy when the same mob is still running Southern Africa?

Nothing has changed, the politicians are mere puppets of the "Global Financiers" (ie de Beers). At least the previous Afrikaner Nationalist regime officially declared it's discriminatory practices to the world, the current regime does not and that suits mob rule to a T! Finally, South Africa has conformed, it now, just like the rest of the world, practices undeclared discrimination!


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

JoziJoe said:


> Just ask Sir Robert Mugabe, he perfected the strategy!


On Edit: important adjustment to the Title of highly esteemed leadership.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

JoziJoe said:


> British Hiprocrisy destroyed Zimbabwe, the once flourishing bread basket of Africa! British Hiprocrisy forced South Africa to it's knees! Why should I perpetuate British Hiprocrisy when the same mob is still running Southern Africa?


Its unbelievable that people can believe crap like this.... No wonder people are blowing themselves up all around the world in the name of X.


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Halo said:


> Its unbelievable that people can believe crap like this.... No wonder people are blowing themselves up all around the world in the name of X.


Brings back good memories from your own high profile country eh Halo? SA has not progressed that far yet, it's just good 'ol fashioned stuff, bullets and burning tyres, thank goodness.

What will you do if the Asian students or the Muslim community in Australia starts to riot again? Phew, and you thought you got it right this time, you fled to a country where the darn fauna is kept under control!


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Halo


> Japan gets nuked (twice) and it picks itself up....
> Pick yourself up son - How far do you want to play the blame game.


Well, Africa is finished, as you said, most of the wealthy British and Jewish "entrepreneurs" curiously fled just before or shortly after Mandela, maybe they knew something the ordinary, gullible South African did not? Their huge exodus at this significant time did conflict with their Nation being branded as "non racist", they protested for so long against oppression, so when the dream became reality, they fled??

One wonders how the wealthy rats that jumped ship at this time got their millions out the country. SA has very strict exchange control, maybe there is a different set of rules for "entrepreneurs" as opposed to the gullible South African?

I recall an incident, a white woman, caught in an uprising near one of the SA Townships, yelling "Please don't shoot me I am English":confused2:

They elect to live in a British colony, fully reaping the benefits of Apartheid, yet their Mother country institued sanctions and motivated protests and marketing campaigns against SA Racism? 

How shall we pick ourselves up with this vital, skillful part of our society gone?


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Jozi Joe, you are trying very hard to get a reaction and failing.
South Africans won the Boer war, it just took them from 1902 to 1960.
By the looks of it you are into the whole illuminati/Rothchilds/oppenheimer/Semitic thinghie.
People go where they can make money.
You are'nt going to get reparations or acknowledgement for Kitcheners Scorched Earth policies anymore than Col Saunders is going to apologise to a Chicken.


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Daxk said:


> Jozi Joe, you are trying very hard to get a reaction and failing.
> South Africans won the Boer war, it just took them from 1902 to 1960.


The victims from the Boer War concentration camps will tend to disagree with you.



> J
> By the looks of it you are into the whole illuminati/Rothchilds/oppenheimer/Semitic thinghie.


Not sure what you are referring to here, no, I just ask questions because I'm looking for answers, non hypocritical answers! (like the one about Ghandi being racist). Questions that have remained unanswered since I was born into a country with declared racism and now, as an immigrant in a country that practices undeclared racism (voluntary segregated lives). I just want to know why Southern Africa was so intensely branded as the world's racists, totally out of context with much worse human rights atrocities committed outside the African continent? Just trying to make sense of it all, is that a sin on this Forum? 

Your biased opinions and Halo's declaring everything as crap without reasoning is also failing. For me it is not a quest of failing or winning points on a Forum, I'm hunting for the truth, and I have yet to find it...


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

"The victims from the Boer War concentration camps will tend to disagree with you."
Like my Oupa and Ouma grooitjie? And my Oupa's sister who died of Diptheria in the Camp?

As to the rest of your quest for answers, the answer was " Because they could do so and get away with it"

Its like asking the Mongols to apologise for Ghenghis Khan.
South Africa and the Nats in particular did create most of todays problems in SA.
Apartheid was created by the Brits,but perfected in Law by the Nats.
And they did'nt let go until they were forced to.


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Daxk said:


> Its like asking the Mongols to apologise for Ghenghis Khan.
> South Africa and the Nats in particular did create most of todays problems in SA.
> Apartheid was created by the Brits,but perfected in Law by the Nats.
> And they did'nt let go until they were forced to.


I don't know where you or Halo get the idea that I want an apology or acknowledgement, what good will an apology do those that are being slaughtered in Southern Africa? That is not the same thing as taking responsibility for your actions!

Furthermore, nobody is denying that the Afrikaner Nationalists, who came to power in 1948, inherited the system later known as Apartheid and* fully manipulated it to their own advantage for profit. * (Monkey see, Monkey do). It would be ludicrous and hypocritical to try and deny that! The British propaganda and marketing machine ensured that the world knew all about the sins of the Afrikaner Nationalists!



Daxk said:


> As to the rest of your quest for answers, the answer was " Because they could do so and get away with it"


Really Daxk? Well, I guess that just solves everything, go ahead Southern Africa, destroy everything just because you can get away with it. (Once again, Monkey see, Monkey do style?)

Ironically, it's the *innocent *still resident in Southern Africa that are paying the price! The true *******s of Apartheid made their exodus just before the release of Mandela, taking their riches with them.



Daxk said:


> Like my Oupa and Ouma grooitjie? And my Oupa's sister who died of Diptheria in the Camp?





> The Dry Harts cemetery contains hundreds of graves, all dating from 1901 and 1902. But the names on the gravestones belong not to Afrikaners, but to black Africans.
> 
> These stones are the evidence of a forgotten British crime.





> The British and Afrikaners had a monopoly over South African history - and *neither group had an interest in promoting knowledge *about the African camps.
> 
> Gravestones
> *The gravestones suggest a re-evaluation of the past is needed*
> ...





> Many South Africans hope that a re-evalution of the past, and a recognition that all peoples suffered in a terrible war, can lead to a more harmonious future.


I think white South Africans have done their bit, time for the British to take their turn!

BBC News | AFRICA | Forgotten victims of the Boer War


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

JoziJoe said:


> Brings back good memories from your own high profile country eh Halo? SA has not progressed that far yet, it's just good 'ol fashioned stuff, bullets and burning tyres, thank goodness.


For starters.... Where do you live again?



JoziJoe said:


> What will you do if the Asian students or the Muslim community in Australia starts to riot again? Phew, and you thought you got it right this time, you fled to a country where the darn fauna is kept under control!


Riots? Which specific riot are you talking about? There are many issues involved here so please doing bring out your huge brush.

You seem to have a big old chip on your shoulder..... but I suppose we can't all be rational and objective.

PS Nobody FLED/RAN etc.... It's called migration and its generally done for better prospects (you should know that).


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## Stevan (Jun 30, 2009)

> i think white South Africans have done their bit, time for the British to take their turn!


please elaborate


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Halo said:


> For starters.... Where do you live again?


I'm in transit, from SA to NZ and now finally back to SA.



Halo said:


> Riots? Which specific riot are you talking about? There are many issues involved here so please doing bring out your huge brush.


I was tempted to delve into another British colonial anomaly I don't quite understand but you are right, it's beyond the scope of this thread.



Halo said:


> You seem to have a big old chip on your shoulder..... but I suppose we can't all be rational and objective.


If querying hipocrisy is classified as having a chip on your shoulder, then yes, I do.



Halo said:


> PS Nobody FLED/RAN etc.... It's called migration and its generally done for better prospects (you should know that).


If you migrated for better prospects, I envy you. I fled/ran because of the fear of unemployment and a government that now practises aggressive racism in reverse. I am in exile, you are an immigrant.


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Stevan said:


> please elaborate


OK, here goes but I can guarantee you won't like this:

South African Whites have done their bit:

1) Afrikaner Nationalists openly declared their racism, they chose not to practice undeclared racism as other countries do. (I know, that is a hard one to swallow)

2) SA Whites voted for the end of racial discrimination in 1992

3) In 1994, we welcomed a new Leader that promised :


> Never, never and never again shall it be that this beautiful land will again experience the oppression of one by another and suffer the indignity of being the skunk of the world.


http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/speeches/inaugpta.html

4) Truth and Reconcilliation Commission
Trials that investigated the atrocities and villians of Apartheid.



> The work of the TRC was accomplished through three committees:
> 
> * The Human Rights Violations Committee investigated human rights abuses that occurred between 1960 and 1994.
> * The Reparation and Rehabilitation Committee was charged with restoring victims' dignity and formulating proposals to assist with rehabilitation.
> * The Amnesty Committee considered applications from individuals who applied for amnesty in accordance with the provisions of the Act.


Truth and Reconciliation Commission (South Africa) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Perhaps the British Crown should have stood trial at the TRC as well?


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## Stevan (Jun 30, 2009)

QUOTE]OK, here goes but I can guarantee you won't like this:[/QUOTE]

An assumption on your part with no grounding in fact.

I would be intrested to know what putting the british crown on trail would achieve, the crown now beiing only a cermonial position.

If you mean the british goverment. I believe that there are many things the current goverment should be held accountable for. The wrong doings of goverments past is not at the top of my list. 

Would an appology from gordon brown make any diffrence now, i realy do not think so.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

JoziJoe said:


> If you migrated for better prospects, I envy you. I fled/ran because of the fear of unemployment and a government that now practises aggressive racism in reverse. I am in exile, you are an immigrant.


Let me guess - Its the fault of the British............


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Stevan said:


> I would be intrested to know what putting the british crown on trail would achieve, the crown now beiing only a cermonial position.
> 
> If you mean the british goverment. I believe that there are many things the current goverment should be held accountable for. The wrong doings of goverments past is not at the top of my list.
> 
> Would an appology from gordon brown make any diffrence now, i realy do not think so.



I repeat, no apology from the British Crown or Government (whose ceremonial position probably creates a convenient illusion that they have no say in political matters), is going to help the victims of the genocide / ethnic cleansing /violence taking place in Southern Africa. 

The British standing trial for introducing a system, that segregated Blacks from Whites for the sake of exploiting cheap Black Labour, is a different matter altogether.

Fair trials require *intensive investigation*, it would be almost impossible to separate the ‘co-operation’ between British Rule and their financial interests in South Africa, involving de Beers, JCI, Anglo American, etc.



> De Beers’ mines made use of the segregated compound system, miners were virtual prisoners until their contracts were up. They made use of the pass laws, once released from the compounds, miners had no free movement in the country.
> 
> De Beers shaped many of the systems on which Apartheid was later based, the whole country would not become unlike a de Beers mining camp.



Taking an educated guess, I would imagine such a trial would cause great international embarrassment. British propaganda and branding (also known as smear campaigns), once so intensely focused on the sins of Afrikaner Nationalists, would now have to “diplomatically announce” their own vital role, motivated by financial gain, in laying the foundations for racial hatred in Southern Africa. 




> While the two main forces in the Anglo-Boer War 2 were White,* it was not an exclusively White war.* At least 15 000 Blacks were used as combatants by the British, especially as scouts to track down Boer commandoes and armed block house guards, but also in non-combatant roles by both British and Boer forces as wagon drivers, etc. They suffered severely as result of the British “scorched earth policy” during which those who lived on White farms were removed to concentration camps, as were the women and children of their White employers. The rural economy was destroyed as crops were ravaged and livestock butchered. Displaced and captured civilians were forced into ‘refugee camps', a total misnomer, because more often they did not seek refuge in the camps, but were rounded up by the British forces and forced into the camps, which soon became known as ‘concentration camps'. Field-Marshal Lord Roberts had an ulterior motive in putting Blacks into camps, namely to make them work, either to grow crops for the troops or to dig trenches, be wagon drivers or work as miners once the gold mines became partly operational again. They did not receive rations, hardly any medical support or shelter and were expected to grow their own crops. The able-bodied who could work, could exchange labour for food or buy mealie meal at a cheaper price. The British along racial lines separated the White and Black camps. *The inmates of the Black camps, situated along railway lines and on the border, became the eyes and ears of the British army. They formed an early warning system against Boer attacks on the British military's primary logistic artery – the railway lines and acted as scouts for British forces. This strategy alienated Whites and Blacks from each other by furthering distrust between the two population groups and was detrimental to racial harmony in South Africa after the war.*



Feature Timeline - Black Concentration Camps during the Anglo-Boer War 2

Standing trial also means that the British would have to intervene and take responsibility for those being persecuted as a result of current racial hatred in their ex colonies, be it illegal refugees or the victims of “Payback”. The British had no problem intervening when Whites were exploiting Blacks but is “dilatory” and slothful taking action now that much worse human rights abuses are taking place in their ex colonies.

British International clout, demonstrating their distinct displeasure with current Southern African human rights atrocities, instead of knighting mass murderer Robert Mugabe, would place pressure on the current black governments to “revise strategies”. Who knows, it could even result in something as logical as empowering a Police force to take control of crime!


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Halo said:


> Let me guess - Its the fault of the British............


No, No, you got it wrong Halo, according to the British Propaganda machine, the Afrikaner Nationalists caused all the problems in South Africa.


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## Halo (May 8, 2008)

JoziJoe said:


> No, No, you got it wrong Halo, according to the British Propaganda machine, the Afrikaner Nationalists caused all the problems in South Africa.


Sure.... let me guess they are also responsible for the million deaths in Rwanda. You really need to take those blinkers off and look closer to home. The problems in Africa started long before the Brits came over.

PS if you look at the colonies that were under British rule compared to those of the Portuguese/Germans etc.... Who left a system in place? You really need to take those rose coloured specs of. The Brits are by no means perfect but who is?


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## Stevan (Jun 30, 2009)

So where do we start.

Norway for the vikings 
Italy for the romans and the list can go on.

The crown in UK has no political clout.
The UK goverment has little clout they dance to the tune of the EU and USA.

Every goverment in every country is controled by the needs of big coperations.
Would we have had 2 gulf wars if it werent for Oil, i dont think so.





> British International clout, demonstrating their distinct displeasure with current Southern African human rights atrocities, instead of knighting mass murderer Robert Mugabe, would place pressure on the current black governments to “revise strategies”. Who knows, it could even result in something as logical as empowering a Police force to take control of crime!


I can imaagin the outcry if the UK tried to get involved in Southern Afrcan poltics.

I happen to agree with you over Mugabe, if the country was oil rich i am sure the tanks would have rolled and the airstrikes started long ago


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Halo said:


> You really need to take those blinkers off and look closer to home.


“looking closer to home” Are you referring to the “popular” theory that the indigenous people of the “dark continent” are intellectually incapable of “picking themselves up”? If you are , then you are on thin ice considering the “fashionable “ non racist image the British attributes themselves. It’s my turn to say “it’s unbelievable that people can believe this kind of anthropologic (new word) crap”. 

Intellectual development is determined by opportunity, not race. (Ask Angeline Jolie and Brad Pitt)



Halo said:


> . The problems in Africa started long before the Brits came over.


Desire for power and possession is ingrained in the DNA of the human species, irrespective of race, tribe, colour or creed.



Halo said:


> Who left a system in place? You really need to take those rose coloured specs of. The Brits are by no means perfect but who is?


As far as South Africa is concerned, that would be funny if it weren’t so sad. The foundations of South Africa’s western style civilization were laid by the Dutch and French Hugenots, who introduced agriculture and architecture long before the rich mineral reserves of South Africa was discovered. (well known to white Afrikaners as “die bakermat van beskawing”). 

*British desire to occupy South Africa rose to fever point after the discovery of gold and diamonds and their interest was anything but altruistic.*




Halo said:


> Sure.... let me guess they are also responsible for the million deaths in Rwanda.


Yeah, isn’t the Rwandan Genocide a shame to humanity? Pity the British Propoganda machine had no financial interest in this one.




> *The situation proved too "risky" for the United Nations to attempt to help.*
> 
> The RPF successfully brought the country under their sway, although their efforts towards a conclusion to the conflict were delayed after the UN-mandated French-led force, under Operation Turquoise, established and maintained a "safe zone" for Hutu refugees to flee to in the southwest. Eventually, after the UN Mandate of the French mission was at an end, millions of refugees left Rwanda, mainly headed to Zaire. The presence of Hutu refugees (see Great Lakes refugee crisis) on the border with Rwanda was the cause for the First and Second Congo Wars with clashes between these groups and the Rwandan government continuing.
> ________________________
> ...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide

You only have to scrape the surface of some of the worst “modern day” atrocities and “hot spots” in Africa and you will find clandestine evidence of “foul play” and hypocrisy, and you have to ask yourself a *logical *question, *WHY?*.

More African Hotspots:
__________________________________
The Chad Cameroon Oil pipeline

Chad-Cameroon Oil Pipeline Project | Bank Information Center: Monitoring the projects and policies of the World Bank, IMF and other international financial institutions

Scenes from the Chad-Cameroon Oil and Pipeline Project - Environmental Defense Fund
________________________________

(2)
Poor West Africa and specifically Angola, it’s so rich in resources that it’s absolutely doomed.







_______________________________________


Anyone want to place bets that I will now be “shipped off “ to this “box”:

Daxk:


> By the looks of it you are into the whole illuminati/Rothchilds/oppenheimer/Semitic thinghie.


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## JoziJoe (Mar 21, 2008)

Stevan said:


> So where do we start.
> 
> Norway for the vikings
> Italy for the romans and the list can go on.
> ...


As a British subject, you would be much better informed than me as to who represents “the British” these days.




Stevan said:


> Every goverment in every country is controled by the needs of big coperations.


Yipeeeee, finally, a sensible, logical argument! 
(no sarcasm intended, just pure joy!)




Stevan said:


> I can imaagin the outcry if the UK tried to get involved in Southern Afrcan poltics


Yeah, just look what happened to Canada (the Brandon Huntley thinghie) as they demonstrate what “the British” should be doing in their Southern African British Colonies. Refer (1) in my reply to Halo.




Stevan said:


> I happen to agree with you over Mugabe, if the country was oil rich i am sure the tanks would have rolled and the airstrikes started long ago


You don’t need oil to get your country destroyed, rich, high quality copper reserves are enough, these days even the Chinese need copper. Africa has oil but it lies in West Africa, look for similar strategies you mentioned by referring to the same Video in (2), my reply to Halo.




> The star spangled banner in the desert sands. US Soldiers on manouvre on West African soil with African troops.



Prof Michael Klare:


> I worry that ,in the competive pursuit of foreign oil, that especially the USA and China might clash in the Caspian sea region, where both of them are looking for oil. Now I would not argue that this would be through intentional policy, I’m not saying that they seek to go to war with one another but both of them are seeking allies in the region and providing military advisors, sending weapons into the area, building new military ties with local powers in a competitive way that is very reminiscent of the period before World War Iin the Balkans when you had the big powers all competing for advantage in a very volatile area





> Competition that’s long been been evident in Africa too, *the new oildorado *that America is banking to secure its supplies. *25% of US oil imports are expected to come from the reserves of the dark continent in future, that’s more than America reserves from Saudi Arabia. *
> 
> In Chad, the latest member of the club of African oil countries, American oil companies dominate the scene, they built the oil wells and the pipeline through which oil now flows over 1,000km to the Atlantic coast in Cameroon and out to the loading terminal at sea. But now the USA’s rival, China, has claimed rights and is negotiating with the government of Chad, for access to the precious resource, oil.







Time for me to climb back into my thinghie box.


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## Stevan (Jun 30, 2009)

> As a British subject, you would be much better informed than me as to who represents “the British” these days.



Sorry as with most british subjects we have not got a clue.


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