# 488 Years as Refuge



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

As of yesterday, San Cristobal De Las Casas celebrated its 488th biirthday as a Spanish enclave on the edge of the Jovel Valley after the Chiapanecos routed the Spaniards from the the Rio Grijalva region near where Metropolitan Tuxtla Gutierrez exists today. It was originally known as Villa Rica and the name was eventually changed to honor Frey De Las Casas who was a sympathizer with and supporter of local indigenous people of the Jovel Valley and surrounding mountainous environs. The original Spanish enclave was quite small located within a small urban area encompassing today's historic central plaza. That central zone was, in turn, surrounded by protective barrios populated primarily by indigenous folks practicing various productive commercial endeavors and providing protection for the small Spanish enclave the barrios sheltered.

The Jovel Valley sits at approximately 7,000 feet above sea level while Metro Tuxtla sits at about 1,300 feet above sea level so the climate in San Cristobal is cool to cold and cloudy much of the year while Tuxtla is usually quite hot and humid. The driving distance between the two urban zones is about 50 minutes over the relatively new auto post. Driving time was about 2 1/2 hours before the new auto posts opened in 2007.

Until the Spanish arrived, the original indigenous inhabitants lived in the mountains surrounding the Jovel Valley as the valley was prone to flooding but was fecund ground for agricultural pursuits. They forgot to tell the Spanish invaders about the inundations.

It was about the middle of the 19th Century when Chiapas was stolen by Mexico from the Guatemala Federationuppn the occasion of Mexican independence when Chiapas landholders voted to become part of newly independent Mexico by plebescite.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

This plebescite I mentioned above where those who were enfranchised voted to leave the Guatemala Federation and be annexed by Mexico, reminds me of referenda held among white landed males of European extraction when it was decided, when slaveholders in the slaveholding U.S. States wanted to count slaves as citizens for purposes of determining the population of states in order to arrive at proportional federal legislative representation in the U.S. House of Representatives. It was an issue eventually determined through compromise that each slave was to be counted as 3/4 of a European human being.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Hound Dog said:


> This plebescite I mentioned above where those who were enfranchised voted to leave the Guatemala Federation and be annexed by Mexico, reminds me of referenda held among white landed males of European extraction when it was decided, when slaveholders in the slaveholding U.S. States wanted to count slaves as citizens for purposes of determining the population of states in order to arrive at proportional federal legislative representation in the U.S. House of Representatives. It was an issue eventually determined through compromise that each slave was to be counted as 3/4 of a European human being.


The nerd in me cannot resist nit-picking and pointing out that the ratio was 3/5, not 3/4.

Interestingly, as HD points out, those opposed to slavery were arguing against counting slaves at all, since counting them increased the influence of the southern states. While the slave holding states wanted them counted in full.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Hound Dog said:


> As of yesterday, San Cristobal De Las Casas celebrated its 488th biirthday as a Spanish enclave on the edge of the Jovel Valley after the Chiapanecos routed the Spaniards from the the Rio Grijalva region near where Metropolitan Tuxtla Gutierrez exists today. It was originally known as Villa Rica and the name was eventually changed to honor Frey De Las Casas who was a sympathizer with and supporter of local indigenous people of the Jovel Valley and surrounding mountainous environs. The original Spanish enclave was quite small located within a small urban area encompassing today's historic central plaza. That central zone was, in turn, surrounded by protective barrios populated primarily by indigenous folks practicing various productive commercial endeavors and providing protection for the small Spanish enclave the barrios sheltered.
> 
> The Jovel Valley sits at approximately 7,000 feet above sea level while Metro Tuxtla sits at about 1,300 feet above sea level so the climate in San Cristobal is cool to cold and cloudy much of the year while Tuxtla is usually quite hot and humid. The driving distance between the two urban zones is about 50 minutes over the relatively new auto post. Driving time was about 2 1/2 hours before the new auto posts opened in 2007.
> 
> ...


Was there a party? A cake with a huge number of candles?


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## UltraFJ40 (May 20, 2014)

Thanks for sharing that bit of history. It is much appreciated and quite refreshing.

Cheers


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

UltraFJ40 said:


> Thanks for sharing that bit of history. It is much appreciated and quite refreshing.
> 
> Cheers


That was before my time and my interest, since it had nothing to do with me and my family.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

coondawg said:


> That was before my time and my interest, since it had nothing to do with me and my family.


Then, why did you reply?


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

GARYJ65 said:


> Then, why did you reply?


Coondawg asked you about sarcasm the other day. I think he is providing a sample here.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

coondawg said:


> That was before my time and my interest, since it had nothing to do with me and my family.


I find that interesting CD since, according to you, your family arrived in the slaveholding state of Texas in 1838 and, if they opposed the then standard commercial and domestic practice of enslavement of Africans in 1838 Texas, they must have been considered pariahs if they were of European descent and about as welcome around there as ticks on a *******.

My family in Alabama were unreconstructed sympathizes with local social norms of the day in 1838 and were also probably slaveholders although this was not discussed among civilized people when I was being raised in that state. In order to assuage resultant family guilt, I was compelled to join the civil rights movement in Birmingham in the 1960s - a decision I have never regretted since although it was a bit scary at the time.

By the way, Will, thanks for reminding me that African Alabamians were counted in the census in those day as 3/5th of a human being, not 3/4ths as I stated in my above post but they were still not considered among many European Alabamians of the time to have souls. Reminds me that as late as the 1960s, indigenous people were not allowed to walk on the sidewalks of San Cristobal de Las Casas as they were also considered as lesser human beings - just as they are today by many Coletos of European or mixed descent although they are no longer required to walk in the streets. See, in 488 years some things have changed at least superficially. Mainly because Indigenous Chiapanecans will no longer brook that B.S.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

Isla Verde said:


> Was there a party? A cake with a huge number of candles?


No party or candles but much live entertainment during the whole Semana Santa holidays as tourists jammed the city. As is customary in Chiapas, there were many demonstrations of local discontent including highway and street blockages as are occurrences commonplace down here as you know. Chiapas can be a bit edgy - especially in rural areas where road blockages can be expected at any time so it's good to pack sandwiches and soft drinks for road trips. One blockage we experienced recently on the road from Villahermmosa to San Cristobal required our lengthy return to Tabasco . We explained to the demonstrating villagers collecting mordida that we were within 20 minutes of our destination and, when we inquired as to how long the highway would be blockaded, we were told , oh, anywhere from four hours to four days and, while they would let us though, we might be assaulted further up the road by other Villagers. The five hour drive back to Villahermosa seemed a minor inconvenience in comparison.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Hound Dog said:


> I find that interesting CD since, according to you, your family arrived in the slaveholding state of Texas in 1838 and, if they opposed the then standard commercial and domestic practice of enslavement of Africans in 1838 Texas, they must have been considered pariahs if they were of European descent and about as welcome around there as ticks on a *******.
> 
> .


Actually, HD, us coondogs do not continue to "waller in the mud" like those houndogs, so foul odors, ticks, fleas, and flies are not common to us, like they are to houndogs. 

I guess what you are sayin' is that I have responsibility for the actions of my ancestors, whom I did not know, nor have any control over. Seems curious to me, as you seem to think I should have done something to change the way they lived their lives and the way they felt about things, so that they matched how you feel about things. Also, you seem to imply that I should feel like you do against others whose ancestors were similar to yours (racist), even though I do not know them, nor do I know how they felt about things, just because you say so. Something seems strange about that to me, HD. I prefer to live today, the best I can, and hopefully, there will be a tomorrow. Wallerin' in the mud of the past does not serve today and tomorrow, IMHO. Just continues to create racists and bigots. Wish you could see that, HD


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

Sorry, *******,I misread your above comment. I thought you were referring to U.S. slavery, not Spanish slavery in what is today's Chiapas which both Guatemala and Mexico refuse to acknowledge as having existed.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

coondawg said:


> I guess what you are sayin' is that I have responsibility for the actions of my ancestors, whom I did not know, nor have any control over. Seems curious to me, as you seem to think I should have done something to change the way they lived their lives and the way they felt about things, so that they matched how you feel about things. Also, you seem to imply that I should feel like you do against others whose ancestors were similar to yours (racist), even though I do not know them, nor do not know how they felt about things, just because you say so. Something seems strange about that to me, HD. I prefer to live today, the best I can, and hopefully, there will be a tomorrow. Wallerin' in the mud of the past does not serve today and tomorrow, IMHO. Just continues to create racists and bigots. Wish you could see that, HD


Coondawg, your comment reminded me of this: _Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it._ - George Santayana(1905) Reason in Common Sense, p. 284, Volume 1 of The Life of Reason.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Isla Verde said:


> Coondawg, your comment reminded me of this: _Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it._ - George Santayana(1905) Reason in Common Sense, p. 284, Volume 1 of The Life of Reason.


Maybe you misread my intent. I did not say people should not know the past, but I said that to "waller in the mud of the past" continues to create racists and bigots. Those who "continually throw the mud of the past" into the face of people trying to move forward and create a better life are todays racists and bigots, and they are trying to create more of those people, and doing a very good job. 

As an example, many Blacks are always talking that they want integration and they don't have it. These same people also want the NAACP, Black Colleges, Black Caucus, you get my point, I hope. Do they want integration, or segregation?

Then there are those like the HD, who always manages to bring into his post here about his racist family from Alabama, and how he was "set free and paid his dues, and is now a reborn non-racist because he marched with Dr. King, and all others that didn't join in that march are not cleansed like he is." People who continually do these things are the racists and bigots of today's world, and they do NOTHING to help us move on and actually prevent us from moving on to a better world for all of us.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Message received
488 yrs as a refuge

All the rest ranting about racism, slavery and such...BOOORING


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