# Italy and the 90-day rule (?)



## Pianoman

Since Brexit, UK citizens are bound by the 90-day rule: in other words we may stay for only 90 days at any time in the Schengen Area. We then have to leave the SA and may not return for a further 90 days. However, for certain countries (for example France), it is possible to obtain a visa that will permit a longer stay - typically 180 days. Can someone pse tell me whether such a visa exists for visits to Italy that are in excess of 90 days.
Con molti ringraziamenti in attesa di una risposta ...
P


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## GeordieBorn

Elective residency


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## NickZ

It's either 90 days or more than a year. I don't think any of the Schengen countries really hand out 180 day visas. Unless it's for study or maybe short term work.


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## Bevdeforges

Just to clarify - France (and probably most other European countries, though maybe not) distinguish between a short-stay visa (i.e. a 90 day Schengen visa) and a "long-stay visa" - which is by definition a visa for a stay of anything longer than 90 days, up to a full year. So, if you are planning on staying somewhere for six months, you put that on your visa application and you'll be granted a visa either for six months or for "up to" a full year. There is generally no problem with leaving the country before the full term of your visa or residence permit has expired.

The difference is that, for stays of over 90 days, you're pretty much assumed to be seeking some form of residence, and that means that you have to get a residence permit of some sort once you arrive on your visa. (The term of your visa tells the office processing the residence permit how long you're allowed to remain.) There are further details concerning the residence permit - say, if your visa really is for "only" six months rather than a full year. For a stay of less than a year, you may not need a residence permit as such, but can simply validate your visa to serve as a residence permit.


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## Italia-Mx

NickZ said:


> It's either 90 days or more than a year. I don't think any of the Schengen countries really hand out 180 day visas. Unless it's for study or maybe short term work.


Italy does not issue a short stay (six month visa). You are correct 90 days (visa waiver) or elective residence (permanent residence). Neighboring countries tend to issue a six month residence visa. For example Mexico issues one to citizens of the USA (Mexico's neighbor). This is so that six month visa holders can try it out temporarily for six months and not have to sell up completely in USA in case they don't like Mexico and because transferring from one country to the other is easy and inexpensive. Italy and the UK are not neighbors and Italy's close neighbors don't seem to be interested in trying out Italy for six months.


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## Pianoman

Many helpful comments.
The French short-stay visa will be popular for Brits with 2nd homes but I fear there will be a massive uptake and ensuing delays. It does involve a personal visit and this will be time-consuming. Wonder whether they will make the whole process possible online.
It's galling that the UK granted 6-month stays for EU citizens but did not negotiate the same thing in reverse.
Although there are a lot of 2nd home-owners in France, there must be a lot more in Spain and I wonder whether the Spanish govt will introduce such a visa.
Renewed thanks - P


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## Pianoman

Forgot to add in the above that stays of longer than 6 months could possibly invoke issue with taxation. Accordingly, I guess most people will be satisfied with 6 months.
P


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## GeordieBorn

Not with Elective Residency (ER), but it does cost and there are limits on how long you can be out of Italy (6 month I think).


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## NickZ

The first test for Italian tax residency is being registered for residence. If you have residence in Italy for more than half the year (AKA 183 days) you're tax resident. Doesn't matter how you got the residency.


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## GeordieBorn

Not for ER, with it there is NO Italian tax....


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## NickZ

You want to point to anything official stating that? 

A few years back they brought in the low tax rate for some groups but they wouldn't have needed to do that if there was no tax.


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## Scalea Bound

The way my attorney explained the tax burden under a ER visa is as a resident you are governed by the Italian tax law.
However, a ER visa holder is forbidden to work and Italy does not tax income earned outside of Italy. (Pensions, SSI, overseas rental property etc) so zero income equals zero tax due.
If you earn income from inside Italy, for example rental properties, you will pay income taxes.


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## NickZ

Scalea Bound said:


> The way my attorney explained the tax burden under a ER visa is as a resident you are governed by the Italian tax law.
> However, a ER visa holder is forbidden to work and Italy does not tax income earned outside of Italy. (Pensions, SSI, overseas rental property etc) so zero income equals zero tax due.
> If you earn income from inside Italy, for example rental properties, you will pay income taxes.


No Italy taxes on worldwide income. Like most countries. 









Italy updates special tax regime for HNWIs and inbound individuals


Article 16 of the Law Decree n° 147 released in September 2015, introduced the 'special tax regime for inbound', becoming operative in January 2016. Read the latest on the amendments to this regime.




www.grantthornton.global





That's the special low tax system brought in a few years back. It still requires you to pay taxes.


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## GeordieBorn

I'm sure you know as well as I Nick, there is little information on the subject of ER. However there are many results on the matter on a web search. There are at least 2 estate agents I know of on other forums who are very trusted and have provided lots of information on the subject. Without doubt there is a lot of mis-information out there on the matter, so people do need to confirm anything said here for themselves. VISAs are covered here (I think  ), hopefully others have a better understanding than I of Italian. It is perhaps a start.


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## NickZ

GeordieBorn said:


> I'm sure you know as well as I Nick, there is little information on the subject of ER. However there are many results on the matter on a web search. There are at least 2 estate agents I know of on other forums who are very trusted and have provided lots of information on the subject. Without doubt there is a lot of mis-information out there on the matter, so people do need to confirm anything said here for themselves. VISAs are covered here (I think  ), hopefully others have a better understanding than I of Italian. It is perhaps a start.



I wouldn't trust an estate agent to give me an opinion on a house -) Forget getting a competent answer on tax issues. Especially something like tax residency. 

I linked to Grant Thornton a major worldwide CA (I guess CPA in the US) firm with many tax partners.


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