# Form/ Modelo/ Hoja 720: "Catch 22"



## BigFrank (Oct 12, 2016)

I have seen several discussions on-line both here and elsewhwere about this topic yet never once have I seen the element which I refer to as "Catch 22" addressed.

In my case, I have failed to fill in the Modelo 22 in any of the years since its inception.

But I *would* like to sort the problem out.

However when I confess that I have failed to follow the law in the period 2012-16 i believe that they will hit me with a fine equal to 5 X 55% = 225% of the value of my (small but over 50 000€) undeclared assets outwith Spain.

Not much incentive there to come clean.

Any suggestions?

¿ Move back to Blighty and hope the Brexit caper will confound hacienda ?


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## stevec2x (Mar 24, 2012)

We were in the same situation, but we also needed to complete our first tax return. We simply claimed that we had only been in Spain for 10 months or so - nobody questioned that - indeed that's what two different advisors told us to do (one said it openly, and the other hinted).

If you have already completed a tax return, then you may find it more difficult to get around the fine.

However, we were relatively low profile in Spain because we haven't bought a property (ie renting) - not sure if that would make any difference.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

BigFrank said:


> I have seen several discussions on-line both here and elsewhwere about this topic yet never once have I seen the element which I refer to as "Catch 22" addressed.
> 
> In my case, I have failed to fill in the Modelo 22 in any of the years since its inception.
> 
> ...


I presume you mean modulo 720?

I would just fill one in as soon as possible and claim ignorance and hope you don't get fined.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> I presume you mean modulo 720?
> 
> I would just fill one in as soon as possible and claim ignorance and hope you don't get fined.


But on that form do you have to state when you came to Spain? If so, the OP has to decide whether to lie or not, which obviously is up to him/ her.

I tend to think that if you want to follow the rules then you want to follow the rules. There's not much point in starting to declare tax and come clean if you're not really prepared to come clean.


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## BigFrank (Oct 12, 2016)

Yes indeed.

Modelo 720 leading to Catch 22

Apologies


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## BigFrank (Oct 12, 2016)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I tend to think that if you want to follow the rules then you want to follow the rules. There's not much point in starting to declare tax and come clean if you're not really prepared to come clean.


I cannot fault your logic. But it does not solve my dilemna.

At risk of treating the serious subject too lightly, it is akin to the tourist who asks a local"And how do I get to Madrid from here?" to which the local replies "If I wanted to go to Madrid, I wouldn't start from here."

Yes, but......


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

BigFrank said:


> I cannot fault your logic. But it does not solve my dilemna.
> 
> At risk of treating the serious subject too lightly, it is akin to the tourist who asks a local"And how do I get to Madrid from here?" to which the local replies "If I wanted to go to Madrid, I wouldn't start from here."
> 
> Yes, but......


Go to your local tax office. I bet they'd be happy to help you, and free of charge 
http://www.minhap.gob.es/es-ES/El%20Ministerio/Directorio/Paginas/ListaDirecciones.aspx?idProvincia=25


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

I think you have a choice - all of which could result in fines - in fact almost certainly will

1. Carry on as you have been. If caught you will be fined. 

2. Submit a 720 & lie about the duration of your residency. If caught you will be fined.

3. Submit a 720 & be honest about the duration of your residency but claim ignorance if questioned as to why you haven't submitted one before. You will still almost certainly be fined for not submitting sooner, although possibly less than if you had been caught in either of the first two scenarios.

4. Submit a 720 & be honest about the duration of your residency & just swallow any fine which comes your way.


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## tebo53 (Sep 18, 2014)

BigFrank said:


> I have seen several discussions on-line both here and elsewhwere about this topic yet never once have I seen the element which I refer to as "Catch 22" addressed.
> 
> In my case, I have failed to fill in the Modelo 22 in any of the years since its inception.
> 
> ...


I don't know why you expect any help or sympathy. You should have acted more responsible from day one and paid what you should have done like most other people do.

Steve


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

tebo53 said:


> I don't know why you expect any help or sympathy. You should have acted more responsible from day one and paid what you should have done like most other people do.
> 
> Steve


Hmm, is Big Frank asking for sympathy?


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## BigFrank (Oct 12, 2016)

Many thanks for all who replied.

The problem with consulting the Tax Office is that, even although I am capable of saying reasonably fluently "I am not asking for myself, but I have a good friend who has the following dilemna..." the chances of being taken seriously are slim.

Whereas if I admit that it is about me, it is hard then to say "Just forget this conversation please" if I am not pleased with the outcome.

Only one person has commented that s/he was in the same quandry and has explained his/ her solution.

The issue of fines is obviously central. UK tax offices have a standard 100.00 GBP fixed penalty for not-excessive late filing. Unpleasant but hardly outrageous.

But as my OP stated, the Spanish press discuss fines of 55% of asset value which is a different figure by a mile. And led to my serious comment about relocating to Blighty in a worst case scenario.

Anyone have any experience of this matter?

Many thanks for any further replies.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

IIRC there aren't really many people you can talk to about the 720 anyway. You can either do it yourself online using an electronic certificate, or use a gestora to do it online using their electronic certificate. 

I think you really have two choices: either use Snikpoh's suggestion of declaring it (maybe best to use a gestora) and hoping for the best, or do nothing and hope for the best. I'm not sure what asset class you are holding, but I think if you just declare it now, it is highly unlikely they will check up on you. The 720 was designed to go after Spanish multi-million euro fraudsters with Swiss bank accounts. Also another reason to do it now is that quite soon there are new banking agreements coming into effect that allow governments to inspect people's bank accounts in other countries without having to ask for permission. Until that happens they are less able to check up on how long you have held the assets for.


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## The Skipper (Nov 26, 2014)

BigFrank said:


> Many thanks for all who replied.
> 
> The problem with consulting the Tax Office is that, even although I am capable of saying reasonably fluently "I am not asking for myself, but I have a good friend who has the following dilemna..." the chances of being taken seriously are slim.
> 
> ...


One other point to consider: The legality of Modelo 720 has been challenged and the EU started infringement proceedings against the Spanish government at the end of last year. The Spanish government was given two months to make its corresponding claims and arguments. If the Commission does not find the response adequate, it will open a procedure against Spain for infringement of EU law which could be referred to the European Court of Justice. This happened before with the succession and gift tax rules some years ago for discriminating against non-residents in Spain. I haven't heard the latest situation but you may just be lucky and find that Modelo 720 is declared illegal before they catch up with you!


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I think it is worth pointing out (just in case) that the modelo 720 doesn't in itself create any tax liability anyway.

If you had an investment in the UK (or anywhere else) which generated an income, you were obliged to declare that income in the declaración de la renta every year before the 720 was even thought of.

I am no expert, but if I had declared the income (interest, rent, dividends etc) correctly, but not submitted the modelo 720 corresponding to the investment I would be inclined to declare it now and "come clean" given that Hacienda hasn't actually lost out on any unpaid tax.

If, however, I had not declared the income in my normal declaración nor declared the investment, I might have a longer think about my options...


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

BigFrank said:


> Many thanks for all who replied.
> 
> The problem with consulting the Tax Office is that, even although I am capable of saying reasonably fluently "I am not asking for myself, but I have a good friend who has the following dilemna..." the chances of being taken seriously are slim.


Now that's what I don't understand. If you want to get your situation sorted out then sort it out. Don't say it's for a friend, say it's you.

If you want ways to get round paying what you should ,you need a "financial advisor" and if you're worried about the 720 you can probably afford to pay for professional advice instead of getting unknown people's advice on a forum!
:tongue:


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## Campesina (Dec 17, 2011)

Have you considered calling the AEAT helpline on 901 335533. They may or may not be able to help but at least you will be anonymous especially if you withhold your number.


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## tebo53 (Sep 18, 2014)

Why don't you just get in touch with the relevant office and pay what you owe, just like the rest of us!


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

tebo53 said:


> Why don't you just get in touch with the relevant office and pay what you owe, just like the rest of us!


As I tried to explain above, failure to declare assets abroad via the 720 does not mean that any amount of tax is owed.

The 720 is a reporting method only, tax is calculated on the income or capital gains of the investment, but that has nothing to do with the modelo 720.


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## tebo53 (Sep 18, 2014)

Overandout said:


> As I tried to explain above, failure to declare assets abroad via the 720 does not mean that any amount of tax is owed.
> 
> The 720 is a reporting method only, tax is calculated on the income or capital gains of the investment, but that has nothing to do with the modelo 720.


Yes I know all about the Modelo 720 as I filed mine as requested at the required time with all the required information like most responsible residents!


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## Salonica (Feb 28, 2014)

My children and I filed our first 720 one year late in 2014. The fine finally arrived this year and wasn't as bad as I expected. I believe it goes by assets or "datos". Each of my children were fined 1.500 for 4 assets with a 25% discount for paying by a certain date. For 18 assets I was fined 2.800€. I would say that they are going a bit easier on the fines due to the fact that they have been taken to Brussels.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

tebo53 said:


> Yes I know all about the Modelo 720 as I filed mine as requested at the required time with all the required information like most responsible residents!


So then why do you keep saying that the OP should have paid what he owed at the time?

This forum is supposed to be about helping and supporting each other, not scaremongering and finger pointing.


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## tebo53 (Sep 18, 2014)

Overandout said:


> So then why do you keep saying that the OP should have paid what he owed at the time?
> 
> This forum is supposed to be about helping and supporting each other, not scaremongering and finger pointing.


I don't "keep" saying about paying, I've mentioned it once. 

This forum is also about promoting responsibility amongst expats and not finding excuses for irresponsible expats who can't, won't or avoid living by the rules of their chosen county.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

tebo53 said:


> I don't "keep" saying about paying, I've mentioned it once.
> 
> This forum is also about promoting responsibility amongst expats and not finding excuses for irresponsible expats who can't, won't or avoid living by the rules of their chosen county.


Well, you mentioned it in your first post in this thread:



tebo53 said:


> I don't know why you expect any help or sympathy. You should have acted more responsible from day one and paid what you should have done like most other people do.
> 
> Steve


and in your second post in this thread:



tebo53 said:


> Why don't you just get in touch with the relevant office and pay what you owe, just like the rest of us!


The first post is especially misleading in that it implies that filling out the 720 is a means for paying something to the Spanish government from the moment you fill it out. It is not.


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## tebo53 (Sep 18, 2014)

Chopera said:


> Well, you mentioned it in your first post in this thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As also stated in a previous post that I do understand the Modelo 720 as I filled it in at the time required by the Spanish government. I didn't try to avoid it as some posters and members of this forum are quite happy to do and champion others. I belong to a couple of other expat sites and often read posters asking for advise about how to avoid getting fined by the relevant offices for not filling in forms correctly or because they tried to avoid paying taxes etc.

Can you please tell me why posters here give advise about how to avoid responsibility? That sort of behaviour gives all of us expats a bad name.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

tebo53 said:


> As also stated in a previous post that I do understand the Modelo 720 as I filled it in at the time required by the Spanish government. I didn't try to avoid it as some posters and members of this forum are quite happy to do and champion others. I belong to a couple of other expat sites and often read posters asking for advise about how to avoid getting fined by the relevant offices for not filling in forms correctly or because they tried to avoid paying taxes etc.
> 
> Can you please tell me why posters here give advise about how to avoid responsibility? That sort of behaviour gives all of us expats a bad name.


Which posts have recommended not filling out the 720?


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## tebo53 (Sep 18, 2014)

Chopera said:


> Which posts have recommended not filling out the 720?


In the OP's original post. Statements relating to avoiding the Modelo 720 for several years and not having much incentive to filling one in now as it may result in a fine!

Isn't this the subject of this thread?


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

tebo53 said:


> In the OP's original post. Statements relating to avoiding the Modelo 720 for several years and not having much incentive to filling one in now as it may result in a fine!
> 
> Isn't this the subject of this thread?


He doesn't recommend not filling it in though does he? In fact he regrets not filling it in.

And yes the fine does work as an incentive against filling it in, but I haven's seen any posts recommending that that he doesn´t fill it in.


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## skip o (Aug 1, 2011)

This 720 issue is a good example of how Spain's tax policies are often self defeating, in my opinion. There is no incentive for someone who is accidentally late or inaccurate on their 720s to pay and clear it up, because the fees are absolutely stupid. And given my experience with how misinformed and contradictory the accountants in this country can be, I have to imagine many people accidentally screw up their 720s.

My accountant in the US has made mistakes on my US taxes, and the fees and time spent clearing it up have always been reasonable.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

If you really want to regulate your tax situation it's very simple. To get information about taxes payable, to get the necessary forms and help filling them in, you just have to go to your nearest tax office and that you can find out from the link I gave in number 7.

If BigFrank says


> But I *would* like to sort the problem out.


But when offered the above advice of going to the tax office he says


> Whereas if I admit that it is about me, it is hard then to say "Just forget this conversation please" if I am not pleased with the outcome.


Soooo...


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## tebo53 (Sep 18, 2014)

Chopera said:


> He doesn't recommend not filling it in though does he? In fact he regrets not filling it in.
> 
> And yes the fine does work as an incentive against filling it in, but I haven's seen any posts recommending that that he doesn´t fill it in.


Which ever way you want to reconfigure it all it's still against the laws of the Spanish government. You cannot decide when and whether you want to go by the rules!

Homeowners and renter pay their rent/mortgage on time, electricity and gas bills etc have to be paid otherwise you get thrown out or cut off. There is always a price to pay and when people are caught out they want suggestions how to handle it. 

The OP has not recommended any such action as to not filling in the Modelo 720 but he avoided filling it in for several years and suggests a " move back to Blighty and hope Brexit caper will confound hacienda"

If you want today live here you have to play by the rules.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

PS. I know 2 people who work in the tax office I go to on a personal basis and one who works in Bilbao somewhere. You couldn't wish to meet nicer, hardworking, professional people. Seriously, all 3 of them. When I have been to the tax office recently 2 different people served me - couldn't have been more helpful


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> PS. I know 2 people who work in the tax office I go to on a personal basis and one who works in Bilbao somewhere. You couldn't wish to meet nicer, hardworking, professional people. Seriously, all 3 of them. When I have been to the tax office recently 2 different people served me - couldn't have been more helpful


I'll second that. We go to the tax office each year to have them complete our tax returns (for free) and the people who have attended to us have always been extremely pleasant and helpful.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

skip o said:


> This 720 issue is a good example of how Spain's tax policies are often self defeating, in my opinion. There is no incentive for someone who is accidentally late or inaccurate on their 720s to pay and clear it up, because the fees are absolutely stupid. And given my experience with how misinformed and contradictory the accountants in this country can be, I have to imagine many people accidentally screw up their 720s.
> 
> My accountant in the US has made mistakes on my US taxes, and the fees and time spent clearing it up have always been reasonable.


If the penalties for not submitting the Modelo 720 were not severe, I venture to suggest that many more people would just opt not to submit them, reasoning that even if they were caught, it would not cost them very much.

I would be interested to know, in the cases we've heard about on this thread where people have not submitted these returns (and in some cases not submitted tax returns either) what was it that made them decide that they should regularise their position? I can accept that someone can be accidentally late in submitting for one year, but it stretches credulity too far to believe that they can be accidentally late by a period of several years.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Lynn R;11242778
[QUOTE="BigFrank said:


> .
> 
> Whereas if I admit that it is about me, it is hard then to say "Just forget this conversation please" if I am not pleased with the outcome.
> .


I was rarely pleased with the 'outcome' of my dealings with HMRC.
But I complied with the rules.
As I do now in Spain.


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## skip o (Aug 1, 2011)

Lynn R said:


> If the penalties for not submitting the Modelo 720 were not severe, I venture to suggest that many more people would just opt not to submit them, reasoning that even if they were caught, it would not cost them very much.


Then why not fine everyone a million Euros for every mistake? The bigger the fine, the better the results, right? Nope. I can't find the article right now but I read that only a fraction of the people who are supposed to report 720s are doing so. And everyone knows how much tax cheating is going on here. Googling "Spain" and "black economy" confirms my exposure to Spanish tax cheats is not unique. 

Spain is like the parent that screams at their kid all day long. The kids just ignore the screaming after awhile.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

skip o said:


> Then why not fine everyone a million Euros for every mistake? The bigger the fine, the better the results, right? Nope. I can't find the article right now but I read that only a fraction of the people who are supposed to report 720s are doing so. And everyone knows how much tax cheating is going on here. Googling "Spain" and "black economy" confirms my exposure to Spanish tax cheats is not unique.
> 
> Spain is like the parent that screams at their kid all day long. The kids just ignore the screaming after awhile.


I'm sure it's true that many of those who should be submitting the Modelo 720 are not doing so - one of them started this thread, after all. However, the number of returns being received by Hacienda is increasing year on year, which has to be a good thing. There certainly is a lot of tax cheating going on here. That's precisely why Hacienda needs strong measures to combat it.

Los contribuyentes declaran en 2015 más de 14.300 millones en cuentas y bienes en el extranjero. Noticias de agencia, eldia.es


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

BigFrank said:


> Many thanks for all who replied.
> 
> And led to my serious comment about relocating to Blighty in a worst case scenario.
> 
> ...


You don't need to relocate , just attend the foreigners office & apply to have your registration on the foreigners list rescinded . The same as you would have to do if you actually go back to the UK. Also you would have to de-register from the health system , assuming you are on it. 
As it stands at the mo it is better to be an unregistered "resident" , fine 300€ for failing to register , ( & you still can't be thrown out yet :lol as opposed to forgetting to fill in a 720 & having to pay a huge sum. A bit like being fined 6million for failing to register your solar panels.:rant:


Then , some months down the line you can start again. :lol:


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

gus-lopez said:


> You don't need to relocate , just attend the foreigners office & apply to have your registration on the foreigners list rescinded . The same as you would have to do if you actually go back to the UK. Also you would have to de-register from the health system , assuming you are on it.
> As it stands at the mo it is better to be an unregistered "resident" , fine 300€ for failing to register , ( & you still can't be thrown out yet :lol as opposed to forgetting to fill in a 720 & having to pay a huge sum. A bit like being fined 6million for failing to register your solar panels.:rant:
> 
> 
> Then , some months down the line you can start again. :lol:


except that would be fraud...........


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## tebo53 (Sep 18, 2014)

gus-lopez said:


> You don't need to relocate , just attend the foreigners office & apply to have your registration on the foreigners list rescinded . The same as you would have to do if you actually go back to the UK. Also you would have to de-register from the health system , assuming you are on it.
> As it stands at the mo it is better to be an unregistered "resident" , fine 300€ for failing to register , ( & you still can't be thrown out yet :lol as opposed to forgetting to fill in a 720 & having to pay a huge sum. A bit like being fined 6million for failing to register your solar panels.:rant:
> 
> 
> Then , some months down the line you can start again. :lol:


This is an absolutely disgraceful posting, you are openly encouraging the OP to break the laws of the land that you live in and want to call your home! Would you also advise the OP to avoid paying his taxes by some underhand way or another? Perhaps its a good blag to hook up to an illegal power supply eh? You should be a responsible poster and encourage the OP to live within the rules.


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## Relyat (Sep 29, 2013)

tebo53 said:


> This is an absolutely disgraceful posting, you are openly encouraging the OP to break the laws of the land that you live in and want to call your home! Would you also advise the OP to avoid paying his taxes by some underhand way or another? Perhaps its a good blag to hook up to an illegal power supply eh? You should be a responsible poster and encourage the OP to live within the rules.


I agree.

If it isn't against the_ letter _of Rule 2, it's certainly against the _spirit_ of it.


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Isobella, why did you like guz- Lopez post?


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

I think we are all getting a wee bit carried away here on this thread

It's this sort of stuff which mskes many think that an ex pat clique are more concerned about tax laws than the Spanish Hacienda 

Yes, everyone should pay their way, and yes freeloaders are leeches but let's keep this in perspective


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

No clique - just pointing out what the laws are

and it's actually against forum rules to encourage illegal activity


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## extranjero (Nov 16, 2012)

Plus it's annoying to try and do things legally, and then see others encouraging dodgy practices


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> except that would be fraud...........


My apologies.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> If the penalties for not submitting the Modelo 720 were not severe, I venture to suggest that many more people would just opt not to submit them, reasoning that even if they were caught, it would not cost them very much.


But the catch 22 that the OP pointed out is that the fines are so excessive that they can discourage people from subsequently filling out the 720 if they are only slightly late to begin with. I remember having a panic at the time I filled mine out because my passport expired and I was unable to get the digital certificate from the local council office. I had to get a new passport and hope it arrived in time to meet the deadline. I was ok in the end but if I had missed the deadline I would have been in an impossible position. Submission was entirely online so there was nobody to talk to, and the prospect of a large fine would probably have discouraged me from filling it out at all.



Lynn R said:


> I would be interested to know, in the cases we've heard about on this thread where people have not submitted these returns (and in some cases not submitted tax returns either) what was it that made them decide that they should regularise their position? I can accept that someone can be accidentally late in submitting for one year, but it stretches credulity too far to believe that they can be accidentally late by a period of several years.


I agree regarding annual tax returns but, as I said above, with the 720 it appears to be all or nothing. If you miss the initial declaration dealine the fine is so high that there's less incentive to correct the situation subsequently.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

UK Pension pots from former employers - are they Modelo 720 declarable or not - is another question.


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## BigFrank (Oct 12, 2016)

Many thanks to the people who have continued to reply and to add their opinions and thoughts as to how I might possibly get out of my predicament.

To a great extent it, initially at least, is a matter of cash. If the penalty were "reasonable" then owning up is obviously the way forward.


But the *Catch22* which I have tried to highlight from the outset is that the penalties appear to be *draconian.* Hence my further comment about the possibility of returning home.

"Appear to be" because I have yet to hear chapter & verse from those who have gone down that particular road.

Intriguingly, one poster, Salonica, did respond here stating that his/her children had been fined 1 500€ (with a discount) and that they themselves had been fined 2 800€ for not filling in Modelo 720. Stiff by comparison with the 100.00 GBP short-term late filing fine which I commented as standard for HMRC. Very stiff.

However, the post did not include any specific information as to the quantity of undeclared assets, in monetary terms that is.

The expressions *"4 assets & 18 assets" *were used but not clarified.

Does this mean 4/18 different bank accounts? 4/18 houses? 4/18 share investments? A mixture of the above?

And how, in percentage terms, did these fines relate to the value of these assets, since I believe that fines are levied on a proportional basis.

Whilst *I acknowledge that I have no right to the information*, some further elaboration on the matter from Salonica would certainly help me. 

As Salonica has ventured the initial information, I hope that s/he might see fit to provide some further clarification.

¿And perhaps others too who may be in the same pickle?


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## Salonica (Feb 28, 2014)

To tell you the truth, I find my 720s from 2012 (the year that I was fined for) a bit difficult to understand. My children owned two mutual funds, but they were counted as 4 as far as "datos" go. Why? I couldn't tell you and really didn't understand my "gestor" when he explained it to me. Mine were more straight forward, 18 different stocks or mutual funds. The fine has NOTHING to do with the value of the assets. There is a minimum of 1,500€ whatever the number of datos. In my children's case at 100€/dato it would have been only 400€, but the minimum is the minimum. Then they give you a25% discount if you pay within the voluntary period so count on a minimum fine of 1,125€. Hope this helps.


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## rich2006 (Jul 14, 2017)

I have been sent a letter fining me 300 Euros for something to do with Modelo 720 they don´t say what is wrong. My accountant thinks that they may have sent me a letter previously which I never received (Correos so reliable I frequently find my letters blowing around in the street). The 300 seems below the oft quoted minimum. Maybe I am being find for not replying to their letter. As to modelo 720 I spent hour after hour compiling and checking the data. It was then checked by the accountant. It looks as if it is impossible to avoid the fines what ever you do. I shall be leaving Spain (house purchase in England underway) because of modelo 720 I am tired of not sleeping worrying about their threats. Spain was nice when I was here for 180 days a year. Now the place is a nightmare for me.


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## rich2006 (Jul 14, 2017)

*Such moral superiority*



tebo53 said:


> This is an absolutely disgraceful posting, you are openly encouraging the OP to break the laws of the land that you live in and want to call your home! Would you also advise the OP to avoid paying his taxes by some underhand way or another? Perhaps its a good blag to hook up to an illegal power supply eh? You should be a responsible poster and encourage the OP to live within the rules.


If and when the majority of Spaniards pay the taxes they owe you might be right.

But they don´t and why should individuals who have no say in Spanish government and often receive virtually no benefit from the taxes they pay have to be the ones that pay the taxes. Modelo 720 hardly concerns the Spaniards, only a tiny minority have foreign assets. That is the subject of this discussion its fines are massive for very minor errors. Any country that discriminates so blatantly against foreigners deserves to have people who find work arounds. Maybe the UK should have devised a system which impinged on 1% of UK nationals and 50% of foreign nationals. It would have been interesting to see how the EU would have reacted to that.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

gus-lopez said:


> You don't need to relocate , just attend the foreigners office & apply to have your registration on the foreigners list rescinded . The same as you would have to do if you actually go back to the UK. Also you would have to de-register from the health system , assuming you are on it.
> As it stands at the mo it is better to be an unregistered "resident" , fine 300€ for failing to register , *( & you still can't be thrown out yet :lol *as opposed to forgetting to fill in a 720 & having to pay a huge sum. A bit like being fined 6million for failing to register your solar panels.:rant:
> 
> 
> Then , some months down the line you can start again. :lol:


*This is not actually correct - EU citizens can indeed be thrown out for breaking the law and it's quite possible that if one were caught and this were considered fraud, you would have to go through the Spanish court system (which is NOT the same as in the UK) and one aspect of any subsequent sentence might well be deportation. *


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

rich2006 said:


> If and when the majority of Spaniards pay the taxes they owe you might be right.


It needs to be pointed out that the *majority* do pay their taxes. If not the country would not have the motorways, health service and rail service (at least in my area) amongst other components of a country's infrastructure that compare favourably with those in the UK.
That there is a large number, more than in the UK who don't pay the taxes that they should is also true.
Actually it's how the country manages to function with the degree of corruption that goes on that amazes me.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

rich2006 said:


> If and when the majority of Spaniards pay the taxes they owe you might be right.
> 
> But they don´t and why should individuals who have no say in Spanish government and often receive virtually no benefit from the taxes they pay have to be the ones that pay the taxes. Modelo 720 hardly concerns the Spaniards, only a tiny minority have foreign assets. That is the subject of this discussion its fines are massive for very minor errors. Any country that discriminates so blatantly against foreigners deserves to have people who find work arounds. Maybe the UK should have devised a system which impinged on 1% of UK nationals and 50% of foreign nationals. It would have been interesting to see how the EU would have reacted to that.


What evidence do you have that 50% of foreign nationals living in Spain are affected by the Modelo 720? Or is it just a figure you've plucked out of thin air?

How many Morroccans or Romanians, for example (both of which represent a larger number of foreign nationals resident in Spain than Britons do) are obliged to submit the Modelo 720?

Personally I don't see anything wrong with foreign nationals resident in Spain being subject to the same taxation rules as Spanish nationals are. Anything other would be unjustifiable.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Since the number of foreign nationals resident in Spain in 2016 was 4.418.898, and the number of Modelo 720 returns received by Hacienda in 2015 (according to the report I linked to earlier in this thread) - in total, from Spanish citizens and foreign residents alike - was around 135,000, it is plainly nonsense to claim that 50% of foreign residents are affected by the requirement to declare their overseas assets.


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## rspltd (Jul 5, 2016)

_"If not the country would not have the motorways, health service and rail service (at least in my area) amongst other components of a country's infrastructure that compare favourably with those in the UK"_

Yes I'm sure that the taxes that the Spanish pay has something to do with this but I suspect that the estimated 94,703 MILLION € that the Spanish have received since joining the EU has contributed much more. I wonder what the UK would look like if it had had this sort of cash injection?


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

rspltd said:


> _"If not the country would not have the motorways, health service and rail service (at least in my area) amongst other components of a country's infrastructure that compare favourably with those in the UK"_
> 
> Yes I'm sure that the taxes that the Spanish pay has something to do with this but I suspect that the estimated 94,703 MILLION € that the Spanish have received since joining the EU has contributed much more. I wonder what the UK would look like if it had had this sort of cash injection?


Good point!
This is useful
Spain - EU Budget in my country - European Commission
But my main reason for posting is still that to generalise that the majority of Spaniards do not pay taxes in this statement


> If and when the majority of Spaniards pay the taxes they owe you might be right


is not correct.


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