# About The Unfortunate Term "******"



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

First of all, I have lived in Mexico as a retiree for over 12 years at both Lake Chapala and in SanCristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas - two very different environments not to imply that one is better than the other but the difference is profound. If youwould like to discuss these profound differences, let´s talk about it. I am not interested in idle tit for tat but I would love to discuss these issues with someone who understands the important demographic differences between these extraordinary places.

I find the pejorative term "******" to be offensive and racist. I grew up in the Alabama of the 1940s and 1950s and remember when "colored folks" was the equivalent or "******" for more refined racisits of appropriate upbringing. 

Prove me wrong.


----------



## Guategringo (Nov 9, 2012)

Hound Dog said:


> First of all, I have lived in Mexico as a retiree for over 12 years at both Lake Chapala and in SanCristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas - two very different environments not to imply that one is better than the other but the difference is profound. If youwould like to discuss these profound differences, let´s talk about it. I am not interested in idle tit for tat but I would love to discuss these issues with someone who understands the important demographic differences between these extraordinary places.
> 
> I find the pejorative term "******" to be offensive and racist. I grew up in the Alabama of the 1940s and 1950s and remember when "colored folks" was the equivalent or "******" for more refined racisits of appropriate upbringing.
> 
> Prove me wrong.


Dawg, I have to say it depends on who is saying it. I personally think it is meant more to be a derogatory comment then a compliment however my wife's uncle who I have known for 20 years has called me ****** since the day we met and he is as close to me as my own brother. I know for sure he means well when he says it.

On the other side of the coin, comments like "oh you're just another ******" or "gringos just want to come down here to find themselves a woman" or "why don't you go back to gringolandia." Those comments tend to come out of jealosy, bitterness and envy in my humble opinion.


----------



## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

Guategringo said:


> On the other side of the coin, comments like "oh you're just another ******" or "gringos just want to come down here to find themselves a woman" or "why don't you go back to gringolandia." Those comments tend to come out of jealosy, bitterness and envy in my humble opinion.


I agree. It's who and how they use the term "******." I have a Chileno who lives down the street who always calls me "******." I in turn call him a Argentino. We laugh.


----------



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

I understand, guys but this is an insidious process through which humans interract.

I the 1960s. I lived for a time in Nairobi, Kenya for about six months and I´ll never forget a time when I was interracting with a Kenyan man met on the street in Downtown Nairobi and he kept caling me "Sir" as we spoke in an otherwise non-confrontional discourse and at one point, my, having become annoyed at being continuously referred to as "Sir", responded to this Son-of-a-***** as "Sir" in response to one of his inquiries and he responded to me . "Don´t you ever call me _ Sir _you son-of-a-*****, I´m no Englishman!" 

Life is not so simple.


----------



## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Hound Dog said:


> First of all, I have lived in Mexico as a retiree for over 12 years at both Lake Chapala and in SanCristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas - two very different environments not to imply that one is better than the other but the difference is profound. If youwould like to discuss these profound differences, let´s talk about it. I am not interested in idle tit for tat but I would love to discuss these issues with someone who understands the important demographic differences between these extraordinary places.
> 
> I find the pejorative term "******" to be offensive and racist. I grew up in the Alabama of the 1940s and 1950s and remember when "colored folks" was the equivalent or "******" for more refined racisits of appropriate upbringing.
> 
> Prove me wrong.


I agree that sometimes ****** may be used in a derogatory way, on the other hand, I cannot see the similarity with the US in the 40s and 50s on the racist way of treating people.
People from the US most of the time like to be called "americans" and that's a little troublesome for the rest of us americans, as we live in the same continent, so, we should look for a proper term.


----------



## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

I have a drunk neighbor that only calls me ****** .... she really can't help herself. Shes's known me for 5 years. Another old neighbor calls me niño .... so I call him niño. When some broom pusher in the Guadalajara airport called me *guerro* with a nasty look on his face, that did piss me off .... but who ya gonna call


----------



## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

sparks said:


> I have a drunk neighbor that only calls me ****** .... she really can't help herself. Shes's known me for 5 years. Another old neighbor calls me niño .... so I call him niño. When some broom pusher in the Guadalajara airport called me *guerro* with a nasty look on his face, that did piss me off .... but who ya gonna call


When I moved here I started using the nickname for the Spanish version of my name. Most people call me Memo. A few call me Memito. People who don't know me sometimes call me joven. I like that. I am on the far side of 60. I am occasionally called ****** by people on the street. It is not a complement, but not worth starting a fight over. I hike with a large group of Mexicans, most of whom know my name and use it. One of them, referred to me as the ******. I didn't like it much, but I didn't know him very well and, again, it wasn't worth fighting over. My lawyer's office refers to me as the Americano, their term, not mine.


----------



## johnmex (Nov 30, 2010)

I am known at the office as "el ****** gruñón"...doesn't bother me....


----------



## makaloco (Mar 26, 2009)

I can count on one hand the number of times Mexicans have used "the g-word" in my presence, let alone when addressing me. But some expats use it constantly when referring to themselves and other expats. I find it offensive, but it seems hopeless to try to change the practice.


----------



## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

A Mexican man I once dated liked to call me "mi gringuita", with affection. I liked it  .


----------



## Lorij (Jul 8, 2012)

Well my fiancé sometimes calls me his guerita and I'm not offended by that.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

It's one's own personal hang-ups that affect how you take nicknames. Often people will use a general term when they don't know any other name by which to refer to you. In our village we are often collectively know as "los ingles" which is only true of me since SWMBO is Colombian and the suegra is a Texan, but it doesn't bother us.

Another term you may come across for Americans is "yanqui" or for foreigners in general is "guiri"

****** was not a pejorative term and was coined as the result of the first encounters which were with soldiers singing "Green Grow the Rushes, O" so they became known as Gringos. What has made it become, in some places a pejorative term is the result of American attitudes when they try to act superior to the local people to whom they would act in a derogatory manner "peons" or "peasants". Maybe that doesn't apply to you personally but, unfortunately, you experience the consequences of the conduct of those who preceded you just as it does for many Brits in other parts of the world.


----------



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

[_QUOTE=makaloco;1170443]I can count on one hand the number of times Mexicans have used "the g-word" in my presence, let alone when addressing me. But some expats use it constantly when referring to themselves and other expats. I find it offensive, but it seems hopeless to try to change the practice.[/QUOTE]_

Good points makaloco, In 12 years down here, I have been called "******" to my face exactly once after getting into a traffic altercation wih a Mexican driver about ten years ago. He did not mean it as a compliment and actually was threatening me at the time.

Interestingly, the word is used, in our experience, mostly by foreigners living around the Lake Chapala area where we live much of the year. We never hear that word in Chiapas where we live much of the year as well. Down there it is considered by locals to be clearly an offensive term that would prove confrontational and embarrassing to use. Most of out friends and associates in Southern Mexico are indigenous folks of Maya or Zapateco descent but a number of folks mestizo descent as well. Most would be embarrassed if we called ourselves "gringos" in their presence. Notably, expats living in Chiapas tend to be of European or Central American origin and, unlike at Lake Chapala, they tend to learn and speak Spanish or even some Maya languages so they tend to blend in with local people more readily.

There is nothing to be done about this. I just thought it would make an interesting subject.


----------



## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

I chose to cut them off at the pass.......


----------



## Guategringo (Nov 9, 2012)

As interesting is the origin of the word. Some say its Greek, some say it means green go referring to U.S. dollars or even the U.S. army in their green uniforms. That to me is where the negative connotation comes into play. I have not heard any Mexicans use the word, but often times I heard Guatemalans amongst themselves using it.


----------



## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Hound Dog said:


> I find the pejorative term "******" to be offensive and racist. I grew up in the Alabama of the 1940s and 1950s and remember when "colored folks" was the equivalent or "******" for more refined racisits of appropriate upbringing. ... Prove me wrong.


Why should someone prove you wrong? Whatever your belief is, fine.  You own it. Maybe this is more of a chat discussion for the other forum than anything else.

Over the course of 4 decades traveling in Mexico I've witnessed/experienced the use of "******" as a pejorative and also as a reference (like so many other references used by Mexicans) not meant to be interpreted as a pejorative. It's also been used affectionately/respectfully. The differences have usually been clearly identifiable by the inflection/tone/manner in which the word is used when spoken. When the word is used in writing, however, it's not always easy to make a determination as to intent. Not much different than the difficulty in determining the intent of someone posting comments to this forum.


----------



## Guategringo (Nov 9, 2012)

I would like to hear from expats who are of Mexican descent and have returned here to live or the husbands or wives of expats, who are Mexican. Their opinions would be very interesting to get a better understanding of the use of the word.


----------



## Souper (Nov 2, 2011)

Reminds me of the label "Mexican", coming from Southern California the term "Mexican" is used as a pejorative label, but of course most people in Mexico are "Mexicans", not offensive just the basic label or what they are. 
I think of "******" the same way. A quick description of what a person is, I've been been called one and "Americano", I don't get hung up on the label if it is not done in an offensive way.

Sometimes trying to be PC adds to the confusion.


----------



## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

*Hound Dog?*

What is the ages old Southern US expression "Hound Dog" signify? I know.


----------



## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Guategringo said:


> I would like to hear from expats who are of Mexican descent and have returned here to live or the husbands or wives of expats, who are Mexican. Their opinions would be very interesting to get a better understanding of the use of the word.


My wife is a National and thinks ****** is not as nice as Estadounidense, but I disagree somewhat, as I have been 35 years on the border and have seen this word semantically change from one decade to the next. Now there it is benign in normal conversation.

I presume it depends on where you hear the term and this dictates the insinuation as to the local meaning.

I have stopped calling myself a ****** or others and use the word Americano now when in SLP. Alan


----------



## el confederado (Jan 1, 2011)

AlanMexicali said:


> My wife is a National and thinks ****** is not as nice as Estadounidense, but I disagree somewhat, as I have been 35 years on the border and have seen this word semantically change from one decade to the next. Now there it is benign in normal conversation.
> 
> I presume it depends on where you hear the term and this dictates the insinuation as to the local meaning.
> 
> I have stopped calling myself a ****** or others and use the word Americano now when in SLP. Alan


I agree with you on this one AlanMexicali. I have stopped using the word as well and refer to myself as an Americano. The only time I use ****** is when I am with other Americans or Canadians. At any rate, the only times I have been referred to as ****** to my face has been with friends and family and I have not been offended as it has been done with cariño. It all depends on who says it and how for me. ¡Saludos desde San Luis Potosí!


----------



## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

el confederado said:


> I agree with you on this one AlanMexicali. I have stopped using the word as well and refer to myself as an Americano. The only time I use ****** is when I am with other Americans or Canadians. At any rate, the only times I have been referred to as ****** to my face has been with friends and family and I have not been offended as it has been done with cariño. It all depends on who says it and how for me. ¡Saludos desde San Luis Potosí!


Yes it all depends where and with whom you are conversing. SLP is in the heart of the conservative Central Mexico highlands and it took me awhile to tone down, coming from California.

My wife who still works here has been to the "frontera" enough times in 5 years to chat with my neighbors and friends and notices the freer system of social graces there and advises me constantly on: "How not to behave here", "How not to dress here" and how to keep everyone's glasses full when we have one of those SLP cocktail parties and keep the junk food bowls full while she is chatting up a storm. :noidea:


----------



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

[_QUOTE=AlanMexicali;1171246]What is the ages old Southern US expression "Hound Dog" signify? I know. [/QUOTE]_

Well, Alan, as a Sixth generation native of rural South Alabama who never left the deep south of the United States until I was 22 years old,, I have no idea what you are talking about concerning the underlying meaning of the expression "Hound Dog" in the deep south unless there may be some sexual connotation which would not be surprising in Southern Alabama where locals amuse themselves with word games just as they do in France or Mexico.

I picked the internet name of "Hound Dog" after years of posting under the name of " Bubba" on another well- known forum where I was, in fact, their most prolific poster until I was banned for having had an internet altercation with the owner of that forum who dubs himself the "Webjefe". They later relented and asked that I rejoin but under a new name to spare us all embarrassment so I picked "Hound Dog" because I like hound dogs. I also like xoloitzquinties but the name doesn´t work as well on the internet.

Sorry I ever brought the subject up about the insidious nature of ethnically derived names used to describe various social or tribal groups all over the world and meant to differentiate them. The reason that I used "******" as an example is that I just arrived back at Lake Chapala after a stay in Chiapas and the use of the term "******" both as a pejorative by many supposed "non-gringos" and as a "yassuh boss" expression of fealty to the system and admittance of their social inferioirty by expats, struck me immediately upon arrival at Lakeside after some time in Chiapas where the social interplay of words is different between ethnic groups and social classes but no less hurtful. 

Anyway, it´s been fun taliking about this subject which can become much more serious if there are food shortages in our future or, as in Chiapas, historical and conlicting real property claims.


----------



## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

sparks said:


> I have a drunk neighbor that only calls me ****** .... she really can't help herself. Shes's known me for 5 years. Another old neighbor calls me niño .... so I call him niño. When some broom pusher in the Guadalajara airport called me *guerro* with a nasty look on his face, that did piss me off .... but who ya gonna call


When I worked in McAllen, TX a coworker called me guerro. I asked her if she had just called me a whale which I guess would be appropriate at 6'2" 290 lbs. Everyone blew up laughing at my mangling the language. While there I saw Hispanics being very descriptive of others. One very dark fellow quit because he was constantly called...well, you can imagine. Just seems to be part of the culture. Trying to be politically correct and expecting others to do the same in Mexico seems like guaranteed frustration.


----------



## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Longford said:


> Why should someone prove you wrong? Whatever your belief is, fine. You own it. Maybe this is more of a chat discussion for the other forum than anything else.
> 
> Over the course of 4 decades traveling in Mexico I've witnessed/experienced the use of "******" as a pejorative and also as a reference (like so many other references used by Mexicans) not meant to be interpreted as a pejorative. It's also been used affectionately/respectfully. The differences have usually been clearly identifiable by the inflection/tone/manner in which the word is used when spoken. When the word is used in writing, however, it's not always easy to make a determination as to intent. Not much than the difficulty in determining the intent of someone posting comments to this forum.


One more thought about the ****** term; when it is used in Mexico, generally it' s not in a pejorative manner (90% of the time) When mexicans want to be direct and agressive, we would use some other adjectives before or after the subject, being a nationality or anyone. 
Also, things are quite different than in the US, as history is too, we may and actually do use words refering to one's complexion and they are not banned or anything here as they are in the USA, by instance: we may say *****, mi *****, negrito to a dark or black person, no problem, and this is not only for Mexico, it works in all latin america, me may say güero, güerito, güera, güerita, etc. And this would be normal, meaning nothing, even amongst mexican nationals.

I think sometimes people from the US, (Ido have troubles calling them americans, since we all are americans) pay too much attention in those details. Really, when people use the ****** term and you guys hear it, it is most probably used as a nice word, otherwise you would clearly know it.


----------



## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I very rarely hear the word ****** coming from Mexicans. Once in a great while someone il will use it to describe someone but it is not frequent. Meanwhile if you live in the Lake Chapala area you hear it ad nauseum coming from the foreigners.


----------



## Guategringo (Nov 9, 2012)

GARYJ65 said:


> I think sometimes people from the US, (Ido have troubles calling them americans, since we all are americans) pay too much attention in those details. Really, when people use the ****** term and you guys hear it, it is most probably used as a nice word, otherwise you would clearly know it.


Therefore, why don't you have the same problem saying we are from the U.S. if Mexico is the United Mexican States or Estados Unidos Mexicanos? that would mean we are all from the U.S. in your way of thinking. 

What is wrong with calling people from the U.S. Americans? You said "we are all Americans." therefore call us what we are - Americans. pretty simple in my opinion.


----------



## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Guategringo said:


> Therefore, why don't you have the same problem saying we are from the U.S. if Mexico is the United Mexican States or Estados Unidos Mexicanos? that would mean we are all from the U.S. in your way of thinking.
> 
> What is wrong with calling people from the U.S. Americans? You said "we are all Americans." therefore call us what we are - Americans. pretty simple in my opinion.


As a matter of fact, I do have some problems with Estados Unidos Mexicanos, former president Calderon tried to pass a law proposal to change the country's name to México, which we all use all the time.

As we are right now, we, mexicans, are estadounidenses as well as norteamericanos and americanos, so, which would be the better term to use?
There is nothing wrong, in my point of view, with calling USA nationals as Americans, it's just a confusing term, since canadians, mexicans, peruvians, etc. Are americans too.
For USA nationals when they refer to America, most of the time they mean the USA only, that's one more thing to talk about.
Meanwhile, god bless America! (All countries included)


----------



## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Guategringo said:


> Therefore, why don't you have the same problem saying we are from the U.S. if Mexico is the United Mexican States or Estados Unidos Mexicanos? that would mean we are all from the U.S. in your way of thinking.
> 
> What is wrong with calling people from the U.S. Americans? You said "we are all Americans." therefore call us what we are - Americans. pretty simple in my opinion.


I was thinking the same thing as you were.

If you look at the semantics of a word, whether used decades ago and today, the word can take on new meanings over time. Therefore whatever the present meaning is, acceptable by the majority, that current semantic version happens to be the "real" meaning. No matter if you like it or not. 

If Mexicans call foreigners from the north Americanos then we are Americanos, whether we like it or accept it.

If some chose to think in technical terms of a word then they have not understood that words convey a representation of something to the majority of people who use language to communicate.

The word ****** is a perfect example, as is the word Chilango. It is what the majority understand the current meaning to represent. Chilango used to be a bit derogatory 35 years ago on the Mexican frontera. Today it simply means someone from DF.

****** used to be a bit derogatory 35 years ago on the Mexican frontera, today it means Americano or Canadiense in normal conversation.

Whatever the majority understand the word to represent is the current semantic meaning.


----------



## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

AlanMexicali said:


> I was thinking the same thing as you were.
> 
> If you look at the semantics of a word, whether used decades ago and today, the word can take on new meanings over time. Therefore whatever the present meaning is, acceptable by the majority, that current semantic version happens to be the "real" meaning. No matter if you like it or not.
> 
> ...


Mexicans very seldom say Americanos, possibly Norteamericanos, mostly Gringos and even gabachos
Being a chilango myself, I do not have a bit of a problem for being called chilango, depending on the way people would say it...
The term ****** is not used for Canadiens, at least in Mexico, and if it is, they have been using it behind my back for 47 years! Canadiens are canadienses, period. Most people in Mexico do not even know terms like canuck.


----------



## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

AlanMexicali said:


> I was thinking the same thing as you were.
> 
> 
> If Mexicans call foreigners from the north Americanos then we are Americanos, whether we like it or accept it.
> ...


----------



## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> Mexicans very seldom say Americanos, possibly Norteamericanos, mostly Gringos and even gabachos
> Being a chilango myself, I do not have a bit of a problem for being called chilango, depending on the way people would say it...
> The term ****** is not used for Canadiens, at least in Mexico, and if it is, they have been using it behind my back for 47 years! Canadiens are canadienses, period. Most people in Mexico do not even know terms like canuck.


Mexicans seldom use the word Americano? Not in my experiences, maybe in your experiences. I posted specific information about my extensive 35 years of experiences and you post non specific generalizations about your experiences. What good does that do anyone reading here? I happen to be both Canadian and American and you are Mexican? Did you live on the fontera and hear Chilango 35 years ago when describing someone from DF?


----------



## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

GARYJ65 said:


> Mexicans very seldom say Americanos, possibly Norteamericanos, mostly Gringos and even gabachos
> Being a chilango myself, I do not have a bit of a problem for being called chilango, depending on the way people would say it...
> The term ****** is not used for Canadiens, at least in Mexico, and if it is, they have been using it behind my back for 47 years! Canadiens are canadienses, period. Most people in Mexico do not even know terms like canuck.


We, mexicans, also use Extranjeros, for foreigners, and then explain where they come from.


----------



## Guategringo (Nov 9, 2012)

GARYJ65 said:


> Mexicans very seldom say Americanos, possibly Norteamericanos, mostly Gringos and even gabachos
> Being a chilango myself, I do not have a bit of a problem for being called chilango, depending on the way people would say it...
> The term ****** is not used for Canadiens, at least in Mexico, and if it is, they have been using it behind my back for 47 years! Canadiens are canadienses, period. Most people in Mexico do not even know terms like canuck.


I do not think you can claim that Mexicans do not call Canadians gringos, unless they know who they are. If you saw a group of people sitting at a table having drinks and they "looked" like gringos, you would call them a group of gringos. You would not say, "I think the one one the left is Canadian, the one on the right is a Dane, the one in the middle is from the Netherlands, but the other two are gringos for sure. You would group them all together. 

So IMHO even though many say the term ****** is used to describe a North American from the U.S. it is a broader term than that and encompasses many other nationalities.


----------



## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Guategringo said:


> I do not think you can claim that Mexicans do not call Canadians gringos, unless they know who they are. If you saw a group of people sitting at a table having drinks and they "looked" like gringos, you would call them a group of gringos. You would not say, "I think the one one the left is Canadian, the one on the right is a Dane, the one in the middle is from the Netherlands, but the other two are gringos for sure. You would group them all together.
> 
> So IMHO even though many say the term ****** is used to describe a North American from the U.S. it is a broader term than that and encompasses many other nationalities.


By mistake, we would call Canadians, English, Irish, Australians, etc. Whenever we hear them speak english, once we know where they come from, we never refer to them as gringos.


----------



## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> By mistake, we would call Canadians, English, Irish, Australians, etc. Whenever we hear them speak english, once we know where they come from, we never refer to them as gringos.


Gary.

I think you are an educated person. Myself being white skinned, 6 ft. tall and bright blue eyes and speak Spanish have had people in Mexico say things they presume a "tourist" from wherever would not understand chatting about me within hearing range. Believe it or not, not everyone cares where you originate from and even try to ask me but do like to point out things they see around them in the simplest most chat-like terms they can. Americano is popular and so is turista.


I was waiting for my wife to get out of an all day meeting in Rioverde SLP [small city] and was hanging around the plaza and park and got so many drunks coming up and bothering me I camped out in a restaurant the whole afternoon.

The more times I am introduced the more I try to no even mention being a Canadian and stick to being an American, simplifies things greatly.

Even the INM officers will occasionally ask me in airports. "Senor, are you Americano?" Half English. They might ask "Where are you from?" more popular.


----------



## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

Do you respond that you are from *el norte*?


----------



## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

RVGRINGO said:


> Do you respond that you are from *el norte*?


I used the term Mexico frontera.


----------



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

The word "******" is fine until the day those in power announce, "Round up all the gringos and bring them down to the railhead."

Today, the designation "Mexican" has taken on certain negative connotations in my old stomping grounds of Los Angeles County, California . In the rural Alabama of my youth in the 1940s and 1950s, it evolved that Alabamians of European ancestry "loved" Alabamians of African ancestry but those outsiders of African descent from other regions were often definable as "outside agitators" and thus of a suspicious nature intent upon disturbing the social order and, as social disorder resulted, they were no longer welcome initially by either the leaders of the European or African communities which in my town constituted 50/50% of the population. 

Human interraction is not ever eass to interpret.


----------



## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Hound Dog said:


> The word "******" is fine until the day those in power announce, "Round up all the gringos and bring them down to the railhead.
> 
> Today, the designation "Mexican" has taken on certain negative connotations in my old stomping grounds of Los Angeles County, California . In the rural Alabama of my youth in the 1940s and 1950s, it evolved that Alabamians of European ancestry "loved" Alabamians of African ancestry but those outsiders of African descent from other regions were often definable as "outside agitators" and thus of a suspicious nature intent upon disturbing the social order and, as social disorder resulted, they were no longer welcome initially by either the leaders of the European or African communities which in my town constituted 50/50% of the population.
> 
> Human interraction is not ever eass to interpret.


I'm curious as to what negative connotations may have to be called "Mexican"?


----------



## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Hound Dog said:


> The word "******" is fine until the day those in power announce, "Round up all the gringos and bring them down to the railhead."


That's a good reason for acquiring Mexican citizenship, ¿no crees?


----------



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


Isla Verde said:



That's a good reason for acquiring Mexican citizenship, ¿no crees?

Click to expand...

_Isla Verde:
We will hav both accomplished that this summer if everything goes well and probably in Chiapas. 

For you folks still contemplating which way to go, we now thank our lucky stars that we went "Inmigrante", the equivalent of today´s "Residente Permanente" back in 2011 and have not been subjected to the vagaries of the system as times have changed. As Isla knows, I am a U.S. citizen and my wife is a French citizen and we will both hold dual citizenships once this process is completed. Once we are citizens which is certainly in the bag in the near future, the government must treat us respectfully as naturalized Mexicans with no arbitrary rules changes rearing their ugly heads unexpectedly sometime in the future. 

We worked towrd "Inmigrado" and then citizen status for ten years when things were not so simple. Go for at least residente permanente as soon as possible if you really plan to live here and do no try to "game" the system. That means getting rid of that NOB clunker ASAP and buying a Mexican car. You´ll be helping the economy of your new country in your own small way. 

By the way, getting rid of the U.S. clunkers is not so difficult. We drove one to CARMAX in San Antonio and sold it and and the other to Nuevo Laredo with Mexican fiends who bought it from us after we technically exported it and then nationalized it immediately right there in Nuevo Lareso.


----------



## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Hound Dog said:


> Isla Verde:
> We will hav both accomplished that this summer if everything goes well and probably in Chiapas.
> 
> For you folks still contemplating which way to go, we now thank our lucky stars that we went "Inmigrante", the equivalent of today´s "Residente Permanente" back in 2011 and have not been subjected to the vagaries of the system as times have changed. As Isla knows, I am a U.S. citizen and my wife is a French citizen and we will both hold dual citizenships once this process is completed. Once we are citizens which is certainly in the bag in the near future, the government must treat us respectfully as naturalized Mexicans with no arbitrary rules changes rearing their ugly heads unexpectedly sometime in the future.
> ...


I hope the naturalization process goes smoothly for both of you this summer. 

Once I achieve Residente Permanente status (keeping my fingers crossed that this will happen soon), I will definitely look into applying for Mexican citizenship. It makes a lot of sense, and I´m looking forward to having two passports! And since I don't have a car from the US, I won't have to jump through various bureaucratic hoops to get rid of it.


----------



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

[_QUOTE=Isla Verde;1172511]I hope the naturalization process goes smoothly for both of you this summer. 

Once I achieve Residente Permanente status (keeping my fingers crossed that this will happen soon), I will definitely look into applying for Mexican citizenship. It makes a lot of sense, and I´m looking forward to having two passports! And since I don't have a car from the US, I won't have to jump through various bureaucratic hoops to get rid of it.[/QUOTE]_

Thanks for the comment Isla Verde but just for those of you who are saddled with U.S. plated cars, as I stated ealier, simply drive them to the border and sell them. Once again, as I indicated earlier, I drove one car to San Antonio, TX and sold it to Carmax taKing the Greyhound from San Antonio abck to Nuevo Laredo and then the overnight Guadalajara luxury bus sleeper from there and the other to Nuevo Laredo accompanied by two Mexican friends, exported it at aduana in Nuevo Laredo and sold it to them without exen even crossig into the U.S. and they legallized it under their names with a Nuevo Laredo importer they knew before driving it back to Oaxaca.

The drive from Lake Chapala to the border at Nuevo Laredo is easy. I usually stop for the night at San Luis Potosi but with these guys, we simply left early in the morning, drove non-stop to Nuevo Laredo exported the car there adjacent to the border and I was on the cheap overnight luxury bus from Nuev Laredo back to Guadalajara while they did what they did with the vehicle to legalize it as Mexican citizens. Not my problem as I had sold it to them legally after exporting it and was rid of the thing. The key was I had to go into the aduana office on the border and literally export the car before selling it to my friends.A piece of cake whether you sell the vehicle in Nuevo Laredo or drive on into the United States and sell it to a reputable dealer such as Carmax. Do watch out to whom you sell the car though - lots of shysters up there in Texas.


----------



## Longford (May 25, 2012)

GARYJ65 said:


> By mistake, we would call Canadians, English, Irish, Australians, etc. Whenever we hear them speak english, once we know where they come from, we never refer to them as gringos.


I think that's absurd ... based on what I've witnessed and experienced. White foreigners froim Canada and the USA are often referred to "******." Relatively few Mexicans are going to be able to distinguish accents.


----------



## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Longford said:


> I think that's absurd ... based on what I've witnessed and experienced. White foreigners froim Canada and the USA are often referred to "******." Relatively few Mexicans are going to be able to distinguish accents.


You are perfectly right on that, what I mean is that once we know where people come from, if they are from Canada, we stop calling them gringos.
The ****** term is only for USA nationals

And you are right about the color comment; ****** is mostly used for white people, unless we know for sure that other race people actually come from the US, then, they become gringos


----------



## Heyduke (Jun 17, 2012)

Once while driving down a 1 lane dirt road a Mexican man tried to pass me going the other way Our trucks touched. He got out and started pointing at damage I had done to his car. I hadn't done anything to his truck. He wanted $200.00 peso's. My Indigenous girlfriend jumped out of her side of the truck and lit into him. She told him that all he was trying to do was take advantage of a ****** and to leave. He did leave. She didn't mean it in a bad way. Just pointing out to him the difference.


----------



## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Heyduke said:


> Once while driving down a 1 lane dirt road a Mexican man tried to pass me going the other way Our trucks touched. He got out and started pointing at damage I had done to his car. I hadn't done anything to his truck. He wanted $200.00 peso's. My Indigenous girlfriend jumped out of her side of the truck and lit into him. She told him that all he was trying to do was take advantage of a ****** and to leave. He did leave. She didn't mean it in a bad way. Just pointing out to him the difference.


As I said: ****** is not used as a bad word, unless...it gets some bad words before or after the term. But then again, it's the same with chilango or personal names


----------



## tepetapan (Sep 30, 2010)

Being called a ****** is a non issue, no matter what tense they use. I have been, as I am sure most everyone one posting on this issue, been call worse many times. 
The OP likely gets called worse names on a daily basis, but that just comes with the territory. And that is very unfortunate.


----------



## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

tepetapan said:


> Being called a ****** is a non issue, no matter what tense they use. I have been, as I am sure most everyone one posting on this issue, been call worse many times.
> The OP likely gets called worse names on a daily basis, but that just comes with the territory. And that is very unfortunate.


As a Chilango myself, I can relate to that.
I just don't care


----------



## Heyduke (Jun 17, 2012)

Call me a ****** , I don't care. I have been called worse.


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Another side of the coin - when I was first in Colombia, I needed batteries for my, then, camera (two of those flat button cells about ¾ inch in diameter) the guy said that it was 1200 pesos (at the time the Colombian peso was 1800 to the US dollar) which was about a quarter of what I would have had to pay in UK. But remembering that we are always told that the locals will try to screw a tourist I said to him "No soy ******, soy inglés" and the price dropped immediately to 800 pesos!


----------



## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> Another side of the coin - when I was first in Colombia, I needed batteries for my, then, camera (two of those flat button cells about ¾ inch in diameter) the guy said that it was 1200 pesos (at the time the Colombian peso was 1800 to the US dollar) which was about a quarter of what I would have had to pay in UK. But remembering that we are always told that the locals will try to screw a tourist I said to him "No soy ******, soy inglés" and the price dropped immediately to 800 pesos!


That's a very good one!


----------



## Mr. P Mosh (Mar 14, 2012)

Like some have said, "******" is just descriptive, not really perjorative, but the context would indicate the intention of the speaker.

For example, US born football player for Xoloitzcuintles de Tijuana, Edgar Castillo, has always been called "******" in Mexico (also "el hommie"), and practically any "Mexican-American" is called "******" (Francisco Torres from Tigres is other example).

Even Mexican nationals have been called "gringos", like José Antonio Castro who got the "******" nickname in his childhood cuz he was too "güero" and his parents were Spanish (I guess his childhood friends knew little about geography).

The term "americano" is a little bit more complex.

Here a post in another thread:



Mr. P Mosh said:


> Well, a Mexican perspective on geography here.
> 
> In Mexico we learn the model of 6 continents (just like the 5 rings on the Olympic flag + the Antartica).
> 
> ...


I must say that "americano" is used mostly because of the media influence (dubbed movies will tend to use "americano" instead of "estadounidense" for better lip sync) and because of laziness.


----------



## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Mr. P Mosh said:


> Like some have said, "******" is just descriptive, not really perjorative, but the context would indicate the intention of the speaker.
> 
> For example, US born football player for Xoloitzcuintles de Tijuana, Edgar Castillo, has always been called "******" in Mexico (also "el hommie"), and practically any "Mexican-American" is called "******" (Francisco Torres from Tigres is other example).
> 
> ...




I find some mention ******/Gringa when describing others. Some use Americano/Americana. 

Some use Estadounidense. In more formal company.

I had one friend in Mexicali who called me a Gabacho [French guy] on occasion to her friends but to me I was El Güero.

At las tianguis the vendors I know call me Patrón or El Güero. Not Americano or ******.

My nickname to my ex wife´s family was El Güero.


----------



## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Mr. P Mosh said:


> Like some have said, "******" is just descriptive, not really perjorative, but the context would indicate the intention of the speaker.


It's used both ways. Oftentimes in the pejorative ... from what I've witnessed/experienced. But your accurate when you say the intention/meaning is most often descernable by intonation of the person using the word.


----------



## conorkilleen (Apr 28, 2010)

Here in DF almost everyone calls me Guero. I think its fine and I actually respond back with something witty so they know I didn't take offense (like they care anyway).

I find Gabacho a little more hurtful, but really, it depends who its coming from. I have a playful response for most anyone that says anything to me, hurtful or not. If you get offended easily, then DF is not the place for you, Guero.


----------



## alexdz (Nov 18, 2012)

conorkilleen said:


> Here in DF almost everyone calls me Guero. I think its fine and I actually respond back with something witty so they know I didn't take offense (like they care anyway).
> 
> I find Gabacho a little more hurtful, but really, it depends who its coming from. I have a playful response for most anyone that says anything to me, hurtful or not. If you get offended easily, then DF is not the place for you, Guero.


I thought "guero" just meant blonde, I didn't think it was ever offensive. Is there more to that?


----------



## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

alexdz said:


> I thought "guero" just meant blonde, I didn't think it was ever offensive. Is there more to that?


It does indeed mean blonde! And we may call Guero to anyone with lighter skin, at the public markets, even a darker complexion person is called guero guerito, guera, guerita, it is not offensive at all


----------



## conorkilleen (Apr 28, 2010)

GARYJ65 said:


> It does indeed mean blonde! And we may call Guero to anyone with lighter skin, at the public markets, even a darker complexion person is called guero guerito, guera, guerita, it is not offensive at all


Yeah...sorta means "******".


----------



## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

conorkilleen said:


> Yeah...sorta means "******".


Perhaps like blondie


----------



## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

AlanMexicali said:


> I find some mention ******/Gringa when describing others. Some use Americano/Americana.
> 
> Some use Estadounidense. In more formal company.
> 
> ...


In Mexico we use Gabacho for Americans, not for french nationals, it is for US nationals and for the Country " el gabacho"


----------



## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> In Mexico we use Gabacho for Americans, not for french nationals, it is for US nationals and for the Country " el gabacho"


Thanks. I read somewhere, years ago, the term indicates a privileged foreigner. The dictionary says a French person. 

Is it slightly derogatory as one poster has inferred?


----------



## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

AlanMexicali said:


> Thanks. I read somewhere, years ago, the term indicates a privileged foreigner. The dictionary says a French person.
> 
> Is it slightly derogatory as one poster has inferred?


In Spain it is used to indicate a French person

Not derogatory AT ALL, well, as always, depending on how it is used.

I can give you some examples:

Un coche gabacho
Voy al gabacho
Es un gabacho

Those are just used to indicate "from the USA"


----------



## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> It does indeed mean blonde! And we may call Guero to anyone with lighter skin, at the public markets, even a darker complexion person is called guero guerito, guera, guerita, it is not offensive at all


You can also be called _güero_ or _güera_ if you have light eyes, blue or green or hazel.


----------



## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Isla Verde said:


> You can also be called _güero_ or _güera_ if you have light eyes, blue or green or hazel.


I think my bright blue eyes and pale white skin are a give away for me and that is why I get the nick name.

Every weekend I get a bright red face when outside and it goes away and happens again next weekend. sheesh!

My arms have a tan though.


----------



## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Isla Verde said:


> You can also be called güero or güera if you have light eyes, blue or green or hazel.


And I forgot to use dieresis! Sorry


----------



## AndrewBV (Jun 4, 2013)

I get called ****** almost daily. I live in Iztapalapa and everyone finds me fascinating.

For me it's all about context. If someone is saying it in an every and someone day conversation, it makes no difference to me, even my father in law calls me his ****** when we're at a bar or cantina. There's no malice to it. 

However, if I'm walking down the street and they call me guerro - that's never in a playful context. Again, it doesn't upset me because holy hell am I white - My family is from Ireland, it just confuses me why anyone would shout it.


----------



## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

AndrewBV said:


> I get called ****** almost daily. I live in Iztapalapa and everyone finds me fascinating.
> 
> For me it's all about context. If someone is saying it in an every and someone day conversation, it makes no difference to me, even my father in law calls me his ****** when we're at a bar or cantina. There's no malice to it.
> 
> However, if I'm walking down the street and they call me guerro - that's never in a playful context. Again, it doesn't upset me because holy hell am I white - My family is from Ireland, it just confuses me why anyone would shout it.


The fact that you're living in Iztapalapa, an area of the city that few foreigners visit and where even fewer live, makes you stand out on the street. That could be why you think that everyone finds you "fascinating" . In my middle-class neighborhood, no one would give you a second look.


----------



## AndrewBV (Jun 4, 2013)

Isla Verde said:


> The fact that you're living in Iztapalapa, an area of the city that few foreigners visit and where even fewer live, makes you stand out on the street. That could be why you think that everyone finds you "fascinating" . In my middle-class neighborhood, no one would give you a second look.


I don't doubt it! 
But even so, the ones that don't like me being there aren't still don't call me ******!


----------



## Mr. P Mosh (Mar 14, 2012)

"Gabacho" and "******" by themselves aren't offensive, now if you say "ah, tenía que ser un ******..." or "...che ******", then it's indeed offensive. It depends totally in the context and the mood the speaker. "Un carro gabacho" is just a car bought in the US, "un gabacho pend..." would be an insult to anyone.


----------



## zapfilms (Dec 11, 2012)

Hound Dog said:


> First of all, I have lived in Mexico as a retiree for over 12 years at both Lake Chapala and in SanCristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas - two very different environments not to imply that one is better than the other but the difference is profound. If youwould like to discuss these profound differences, let´s talk about it. I am not interested in idle tit for tat but I would love to discuss these issues with someone who understands the important demographic differences between these extraordinary places.
> 
> I find the pejorative term "******" to be offensive and racist. I grew up in the Alabama of the 1940s and 1950s and remember when "colored folks" was the equivalent or "******" for more refined racisits of appropriate upbringing.
> 
> Prove me wrong.


In Los Angeles Mexican-Ams call us gabachos. They also call recently arrived poor migrants from MX wabs - "Walk Across Borders". They are pochos, chicanos, pachucas etc. depending on type. Mex español is very colorful and combo insult/jokes are common. I find the ****** appellation dated and murky, let´s make up a new one!


----------



## zapfilms (Dec 11, 2012)

Old saying in USA: "call me whatever you like, just don´t call me late for dinner"


----------



## ruthy (Mar 7, 2013)

******/a- is not considered an offensive term HERE. Any other latin american country, it might be. but here it is more of a statement of fact, like there is a white man or woman...

NOW that being said, Guerro or Guerra...IS considered here a negative term to describe white people. If someone calls you that, they are not trying to be best buds. 

Here people, children, everybody uses the term gringa to me, of course those that don't really know me that well, if they know me they call me by my name. But again it to them is just a way of describing us, we are UNIQUE to them. So its like the red car, the black dog..the white woman. Its just a way of identifying us so other people know exactly who they are talking about. 


Furthermore, one of my friends here is a woman who has lived in Mexico as an expat for 40 plus years. She said no matter what, you can have kids here, marry a mexican, go outside and blast ranchero music and dance in your front yard like the locals...you will ALWAYS be the foreigner, you will ALWAYS be considered the ******. So tuck your pride to the side and just accept, it will make life here a lot easier


----------



## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

ruthy said:


> ******/a- is not considered an offensive term HERE. Any other latin american country, it might be. but here it is more of a statement of fact, like there is a white man or woman...
> 
> NOW that being said, Guerro or Guerra...IS considered here a negative term to describe white people. If someone calls you that, they are not trying to be best buds.
> 
> ...


You got it wrong on this: we call gringos to white people, or any other color people once it is determined they are US citizens
Güero, güera, güerito and güerita is NOT a negative term, it's even an affectionate way to address a light skin, light colored eyed, person, ****** or national or whatever nationality.


----------



## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Güero, güera are not pejorative words in Chiapas. I have also heard the word meca used by a parrot. Not sure if it is pejorative or not, I was told it meant light skin but I have never heard that word used by a person...anyone else has?

There is a big difference between hearing people being referred to as ****** or kaxlan and being called that by a stranger. It all depends on the context.


----------



## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

GARYJ65 said:


> You got it wrong on this: we call gringos to white people, or any other color people once it is determined they are US citizens
> Güero, güera, güerito and güerita is NOT a negative term, it's even an affectionate way to address a light skin, light colored eyed, person, ****** or national or whatever nationality.


Maybe the couple of posters who live in Chiapas misunderstand what is happening when a stranger/vendor shouts Güero/a at las tianguis. It is to get your attention as to them they are describing you as compared to others walking by. It happens all the time to me and by street venders desperate to sell something that day. 

OR in Chiapas it is derogatory, who knows? Hounddog might have a better insight. 

These Expat web boards , the 3 I read, are full of false ideas from Expats.

These web boards also are full of info. and insight.

Seems to be a combination.

Not to mention the "Trolls"


----------



## elsonador (Feb 16, 2011)

I typically am not offended by the term "******/a". I use to think it was just a joke, than my Mexican wife told me most people use it jokingly/affectionately. I accepted that.

One time that really got under my nerves though was upon arriving to San Jose del Cabo airport a member of aduana said to me laughing "welcome to Mexico ******!". 

Now when I hear family friends or friends in a bar refer to me as ****** I don't take it offensively.

I guess I just didn't think I'd hear it from a member of the government. Although Cabo is such a party atmosphere that the officer probably feels the need to mess with everyone.


----------



## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

"Güero, güera are not pejorative words in Chiapas"

This is what I said. 


"Hounddog might have a better insight. "

Hound dog never said guera is pejoratif, he knows that is what pmerchants call out in the market.
Hound dog is my husband and I know a whole lot more than he does about Chiapas. I speak Spanish and some Tzotzil and he does not . By the way we do not have such things as tianguis down there we have mercados also know as chivit..


----------



## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

citlali said:


> "Güero, güera are not pejorative words in Chiapas"
> 
> This is what I said.
> 
> ...


I don´t remember what Hounddog said about it, as I forgot. I did not say he said it was derogatory but some posters did who are in Chiapas.

Las tianguis are not mercardos here either, we have many mercados [buildings] and vendors do not shout at me there. They are the once a week somewhere every day different closed off street where vendors set up. 

What are these called there? Regards Alan


----------



## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


AlanMexicali said:



I don´t remember what Hounddog said about it, as I forgot. I did not say he said it was derogatory but some posters did who are in Chiapas.

Las tianguis are not mercardos here either, we have many mercados [buildings] and vendors do not shout at me there. They are the once a week somewhere every day different closed off street where vendors set up. 

What are these called there? Regards Alan

Click to expand...

_
Alan:

In Chiapas both the permanent and temporary/periodic markets are simply called "mercados"or "chivit" and the words are interchangable. Locals would be puzzled by the word "tianguis" which is an Aztec word even though the Aztecs were once in the region. When my wife, Citlali, asked about the location of local tianguis in Chiapas and Oaxaca, she tells me they looked at her as if she were from Mars. 

The words "guero" and "moreno" to describe people of lighter or darker skin are used respectively down there and we have never taken offense at that custom. On the other hand, as stated elsewhere, the word "******" is generally considered to be offensive in Oaxaca or Chiapas but we are not so naive as to think that some do not refer to us by that word when we are not within earshot. If someone calls you a ****** down down there to your face, they are not usually being nice unless they are personally known to you and using the word as a term of affection. One thing is for sure, if we and other extranjeros living in Chiapas live there a thousand years, we will still be extranjeros by whatever name. That´s life. 

These methods of differentiating people by groups is always evolving. In France when my wife was a kid, the word "Arab" was not considered offensive when describing someone of Arab descent and the word is still widely used but not to their faces. Rather, now they must be referred to as the "People of the Maghreb" or alternatively referred to by their country or origin or tribal group to be politically correct.

In the U.S. Deep South , here is the evolution of the word to describe people of Sub-Sahara African descent:
1940s/50s: The insulting "N" word (among certain classes of whites) or, if one were well educated and civil, "******" "*******" or "colored folks". "Black" was considered a provocative insult.
1960s on: "*****" became the appropriate word and then became passé and "Black" became in vogue and then "African American" and the word "*****" became unacceptable. and "Black" less desirable and on and on.

God knows what they call people of African descent up there these days. I left there in the 70s and the U.S. altogether in 2001. In the unlikely event I go back up there, I´m just going to smile and refer to everybody as "you" (singly) or "y´all" (groups of two or more) and stay out of trouble.

NOTE: Citlali is right that she is far more knowledgable about Chiapas and is far more adept at language comprehenion than I. I must be careful what I say here to stay out of trouble.


----------



## conorkilleen (Apr 28, 2010)

If someone (Mexican) calls you ****** and they don't know you super well, then in my experience they are not being respectful.

Guero is common all throughout Mexico and most times they don't mean anything by it IMHO.


----------

