# Hi and part-year lifestyle question



## Tortuga Torta (Jan 23, 2016)

Hi, I just registered. American husband, Dual-citizen wife, living in the U.S. (NJ). Happy to learn more here, so thank you for this forum! 

We're still in the U.S., and have lived here together about 15 years, with my wife visiting 2x/yr to see her family near Madrid. But are thinking of either moving to Spain for a year or more, or, more likely, trying to do a part-year in each country type of life. Maybe 3-6 months in Spain and 6-9 months in the U.S., or something like that.

Do any of you have experience with living part-year in Spain and part in the U.S.? How's it working out for you? Any stuff we should start thinking about now? 

I know so little that I can't even ask particularly informed questions just yet. I started looking into the tax rules and learning how that works. But as far as buying real estate in Spain (vs. renting), whether to try to get me citizenship there, how feasible this half-and-half lifestyle is, etc... That I don't know! We're also in our mid 40s, and our careers have kind of hit a brick wall, so there's that element, too. It's just that her parents are aging and mine are now no longer with us, so it's important for my wife to spend more time with them now when they are well before it's too late. 

Any advice or camaraderie very welcome! I'd love to hear about your experiences! Gracias.


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

Tortuga Torta said:


> Hi, I just registered. American husband, Dual-citizen wife, living in the U.S. (NJ). Happy to learn more here, so thank you for this forum!  We're still in the U.S., and have lived here together about 15 years, with my wife visiting 2x/yr to see her family near Madrid. But are thinking of either moving to Spain for a year or more, or, more likely, trying to do a part-year in each country type of life. Maybe 3-6 months in Spain and 6-9 months in the U.S., or something like that. Do any of you have experience with living part-year in Spain and part in the U.S.? How's it working out for you? Any stuff we should start thinking about now? I know so little that I can't even ask particularly informed questions just yet. I started looking into the tax rules and learning how that works. But as far as buying real estate in Spain (vs. renting), whether to try to get me citizenship there, how feasible this half-and-half lifestyle is, etc... That I don't know! We're also in our mid 40s, and our careers have kind of hit a brick wall, so there's that element, too. It's just that her parents are aging and mine are now no longer with us, so it's important for my wife to spend more time with them now when they are well before it's too late. Any advice or camaraderie very welcome! I'd love to hear about your experiences! Gracias.


 It would be difficult but not impossible to live here part time. To start with you will need ado tract for employment which is rare. With your wife being a Spanish citizen, that would make you eligible for employment here. The first problem would be finding it. If you live in or near Madrid it will be expensive. You, as an American would have to register, or return in 90 days. I think but am not sure at all about any rights you may have in Spain married to a citizen. Always rent first here because it gives you time to see the areas better. You will undoubtedly get lots of advice on here.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Hi, and welcome. :welcome: American wife, Spanish husband living in Spain (Sevilla area).

My first question is how you would support yourselves. Do you have jobs that can be done from anywhere in the world? (eg online work) The job situation here is very very bad so your chances of coming and finding work each and every time you come here are virtually nil. 

There's also your immigration status. As a US citizen you can only stay in Spain (anywhere in the EU in fact) for 90 days out of every 180 without a residency permit. You can get a residency permit as a family member of an EU citizen, but to do so your wife will have to demonstrate that she can support you in Spain (ie have a job or income in Spain). Also, it takes months to process the application and you have to stay in Spain during that time. Then, once you have the residency permit you really do have to reside here. The permit is invalidated if you stay out of Spain for longer than a certain amount of time (I can't remember how long - 3 months?) 

As for taxes, if you (or your wife) do online work you would have to sign up as autónomo (self-employed), which costs about 260€/month with a discount during the first year. You could only do this if you had a residency permit because otherwise you're considered a tourist and you can't work. If you worked while here you would have to do an income tax declaration in both countries and declare your income from both countries in both declarations. There might be some sort of dual tax agreement so you don't pay tax twice, but I really don't know about that. All I know is that I can take the foreign earned income exclusion on my US tax return because I am a permanent resident of Spain (which you wouldn't be)

Personally I think that it all sounds very complicated unless you keep your visits to less than 90 days. But I'm not sure that's really what you were thinking of doing. 

Good luck working it out!


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## Tortuga Torta (Jan 23, 2016)

Thanks for the response! Helpful to know, and I'll be glad to get more from others.


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## Tortuga Torta (Jan 23, 2016)

kalohi said:


> Hi, and welcome. :welcome: American wife, Spanish husband living in Spain (Sevilla area).


Hi! Thank you.



> My first question is how you would support yourselves. Do you have jobs that can be done from anywhere in the world? (eg online work) The job situation here is very very bad so your chances of coming and finding work each and every time you come here are virtually nil.


Right now, we're both unemployed! (Whoops). So, this is thinking beyond our current situation, and letting our thoughts about more time each year in Spain shape our plans for how we earn money. We very well may attempt some kind of freelance life, if possible (we've both done some before, but nothing robust enough to live on).



> There's also your immigration status. As a US citizen you can only stay in Spain (anywhere in the EU in fact) for 90 days out of every 180 without a residency permit.


Very helpful to know. 



> You can get a residency permit as a family member of an EU citizen, but to do so your wife will have to demonstrate that she can support you in Spain (ie have a job or income in Spain). Also, it takes months to process the application and you have to stay in Spain during that time. Then, once you have the residency permit you really do have to reside here. The permit is invalidated if you stay out of Spain for longer than a certain amount of time (I can't remember how long - 3 months?)


Wow, that's kind of tough. It's hard for me to imagine from right now how my wife could prove she could support me, since she's been out of Spain for 15 years and for her to get a job there...I am really not sure how that could even happen. She used to teach English there but by now she likely has no more "points" in their odd merit system that one acquires prior to becoming (if lucky) a _funcionario._ 



> As for taxes, if you (or your wife) do online work you would have to sign up as autónomo (self-employed), which costs about 260€/month with a discount during the first year.


Gah! Does "with a discount during the first year" mean in latter years it is _more _ than that? Or, does it mean during the first year it is less than that? In either case, 260€/month seems like a lot! Is that a tax, or is it a fee to just be in business? I mean, I know in the U.S., if you have an LLC in, say, California, you have to pay a minimum yearly tax of about $800--but CA is the worst state in the 50 in this way, and most states have very low yearly fees, if any. 260€/month is about $3,400/yr. 

If it is not a fee, but essentially self-employment tax, and therefore includes the Spanish equivalent of Social Security and Medicare, then the 260€/month seems more reasonable, and since Spain has a treaty, maybe one can avoid the U.S. self-employment tax? 



> You could only do this if you had a residency permit because otherwise you're considered a tourist and you can't work. If you worked while here you would have to do an income tax declaration in both countries and declare your income from both countries in both declarations. There might be some sort of dual tax agreement so you don't pay tax twice, but I really don't know about that. All I know is that I can take the foreign earned income exclusion on my US tax return because I am a permanent resident of Spain (which you wouldn't be)
> 
> Personally I think that it all sounds very complicated unless you keep your visits to less than 90 days. But I'm not sure that's really what you were thinking of doing.


I think the ideal my _wife_ has in mind o)--if not year-round in Spain--would be living at very least 3-4 months each year in Spain, and rarely being apart from each other. I see now that if we limited it to just under 3, we could sort of do this (me on a tourist visa), but possibly pay dual tax during those 3 months or just see them as a long yearly vacation, if I had a seasonal or flexible way of earning money. 

But really, I think just under 3 months probably sounds kind of pathetic to my wife, and so we should look further into this. Any opinion of the idea of my staying a year in order to become a Spanish citizen, and then that would give us the flexibility to stay in Spain for 4-8 months at a time?

Thanks so much for your help! By the way, how long have you lived there, and how is your Spanish now? We're going to Madrid this week, btw, so this is very topical!


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Tortuga Torta said:


> Gah! Does "with a discount during the first year" mean in latter years it is _more _ than that? Or, does it mean during the first year it is less than that? In either case, 260€/month seems like a lot! Is that a tax, or is it a fee to just be in business? I mean, I know in the U.S., if you have an LLC in, say, California, you have to pay a minimum yearly tax of about $800--but CA is the worst state in the 50 in this way, and most states have very low yearly fees, if any. 260€/month is about $3,400/yr.
> 
> If it is not a fee, but essentially self-employment tax, and therefore includes the Spanish equivalent of Social Security and Medicare, then the 260€/month seems more reasonable, and since Spain has a treaty, maybe one can avoid the U.S. self-employment tax?


Sorry, I didn't explain that very well. The first time you sign up as a self-employed worker (autónomo) you get a discount so that your monthly payment starts out at about 50€ and then builds up to the full amount of about 260€ by the end of a year. You only get that discount once in your life. It's, as you say, essentially a self-employment tax and therefore includes the Spanish equivalent of Social Security and Medicare. That means you're paying into your government run retirement fund, and you (and your dependants) also get free state health care. Considering that having health care coverage is one of the requirements for getting residency, this can be important. You would also have to pay income tax on anything you earned.



Tortuga Torta said:


> But really, I think just under 3 months probably sounds kind of pathetic to my wife, and so we should look further into this. Any opinion of the idea of my staying a year in order to become a Spanish citizen, and then that would give us the flexibility to stay in Spain for 4-8 months at a time?


Well, you should know that it takes years for them to process the paperwork for you to get Spanish citizenship, and during that time you're supposed to reside here. You also have to pass a Spanish language test (how's your Spanish?) and a Spanish culture test, and you have to convince them through interviews that you are integrated into Spanish life. Plus you have to swear to renounce your US citizenship (which later you can ignore and not do...but just be aware that that's part of the deal). 



Tortuga Torta said:


> Thanks so much for your help! By the way, how long have you lived there, and how is your Spanish now? We're going to Madrid this week, btw, so this is very topical!


I've been here for 30 years! :twitch: At this point I guess I could say that my Spanish is pretty good. 

Have a good visit!


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## Tortuga Torta (Jan 23, 2016)

> Sorry, I didn't explain that very well. The first time you sign up as a self-employed worker (autónomo) you get a discount so that your monthly payment starts out at about 50€ and then builds up to the full amount of about 260€ by the end of a year. You only get that discount once in your life. It's, as you say, essentially a self-employment tax and therefore includes the Spanish equivalent of Social Security and Medicare. That means you're paying into your government run retirement fund, and you (and your dependants) also get free state health care. Considering that having health care coverage is one of the requirements for getting residency, this can be important. You would also have to pay income tax on anything you earned.


Ahh, OK, that makes more sense.

What I don't understand, though, is the 260€ amount--why is it not a % rate of your self-employed income? 

Also, if you pay this, you use the "Totalization Agreement with Spain" so that you only pay the Spanish part, and not have to pay self-employment tax to the U.S., right? 

As far as the income tax from this self-employed income, is that covered under the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion? (well, up to the limit...we can dream!) 

To make it clear, a hypothetical case: Let's say I move to...uh, Chinchon, and I wind up being a freelance something or other with companies in the U.S., and make $50k/yr. I would pay 260€/mo to Spain for the autónomo "tax", file the form with the U.S. to ask for the Totalization Agreement so I don't pay self-employment tax to the U.S., and then claim the FEIE when I file my U.S. taxes, which should easily cover the $50k. 

What if I have U.S. bank interest or investment returns (I wish)? I mean just in U.S. banks or U.S. stocks. Do I have to pay both countries, or is there some appropriate/legal way to just pay one of them? 



> Well, you should know that it takes years for them to process the paperwork for you to get Spanish citizenship, and during that time you're supposed to reside here.


.

Yikes, I did _not_ realize that, though it makes perfect sense, since I am aware that Spain is not exactly known for its speedy dispatch of bureacratic matters. (I have to give big credit to the U.S. lately: my wife filed for citizenship here and was sworn in 3.5 months later. It went so smoothly.). I was foolishly thinking "a year's residency" would mean I would magically become a citizen on the 366th day.



> You also have to pass a Spanish language test (how's your Spanish?)


Not great. Getting better, but the rapidity with which they speak, and the more slurred accents make it very tough for my ear so far. If someone speaks like Jordi Hurtado from _Saber y Ganar_, I can understand 80%. If they speak like many Spaniards, 25%.



> and a Spanish culture test,


Curious how I'd do on that.



> and you have to convince them through interviews that you are integrated into Spanish life. Plus you have to swear to renounce your US citizenship (which later you can ignore and not do...but just be aware that that's part of the deal).


Good to know. "Integrated" is always a tough case for me, wherever I am, so that'll be interesting. 



> I've been here for 30 years! :twitch: At this point I guess I could say that my Spanish is pretty good.


Oh my! Yes, indeed!



> Have a good visit!


Thank you!!


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Tortuga Torta said:


> What I don't understand, though, is the 260€ amount--why is it not a % rate of your self-employed income?


Ha, ha, nobody understands that! It's 260€ no matter what you earn - even if you earn zero that month. Makes being self-employed pretty risky, doesn't it? :juggle:



Tortuga Torta said:


> Also, if you pay this, you use the "Totalization Agreement with Spain" so that you only pay the Spanish part, and not have to pay self-employment tax to the U.S., right?


 Sorry, but I haver no idea what the "Totalization Agreement with Spain" is. But I can tell you that you have to pay the 260€ if you want to be self-employed here, end of discussion. 



Tortuga Torta said:


> As far as the income tax from this self-employed income, is that covered under the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion? (well, up to the limit...we can dream!)
> 
> To make it clear, a hypothetical case: Let's say I move to...uh, Chinchon, and I wind up being a freelance something or other with companies in the U.S., and make $50k/yr. I would pay 260€/mo to Spain for the autónomo "tax", file the form with the U.S. to ask for the Totalization Agreement so I don't pay self-employment tax to the U.S., and then claim the FEIE when I file my U.S. taxes, which should easily cover the $50k.


First of all, to claim the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion you have to qualify. One of the requirements is that you be a bonefide resident of a foreign country. But anyway, assuming you do qualify, the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion only covers _*foreign*_ earned income, ie income earned from sources outside of the US. So in the hypothetical case you presented, no, you wouldn't be able to claim the FEIE. See here for more details about the FEIE. 



Tortuga Torta said:


> What if I have U.S. bank interest or investment returns (I wish)? I mean just in U.S. banks or U.S. stocks. Do I have to pay both countries, or is there some appropriate/legal way to just pay one of them?


I'm not the expert at this! I earn all my income in Spain (and have no bank accounts in the US) so my situation isn't the same as yours. But I do know that there is a double tax agreement between Spain and the US so you shouldn't have to pay twice.

Maybe somebody here with more knowledgeable about tax situations will step in and help you out.

Or you could post your questions on the expat tax forum here. They're very helpful. 

Good luck!


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## Tortuga Torta (Jan 23, 2016)

Thanks again! I appreciate your time and help! I'm writing this from Spain now, actually, so "hi" from about 500 km away! Once again, realizing how lame my Spanish is, but greatly enjoying my suegra's cooking, etc. I'll definitely check out that tax forum, that sounds like just what I need. Best wishes!


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

kalohi said:


> Ha, ha, nobody understands that! It's 260€ no matter what you earn - even if you earn zero that month. Makes being self-employed pretty risky, doesn't it? :juggle:


My next comment will be controversial to many but here goes;

I think the 260€ SS payment in entirely fair! My reasoning is that it goes towards paying for pension, health, benefits etc. As such these expenses are fairly fixed and have nothing to do with ones income.

In my opinion, it's a far fairer system than paying a percentage of ones earnings if one accepts what it is for.


Having siad that, they certainly don't make it easy to be self-employed and that's simply wrong (IMHO).


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## Tortuga Torta (Jan 23, 2016)

Interesting point, snikpoh. I can see some sense to that. Then again, I suppose in some sense you can make the same argument to all taxes, since we all use roads, police, bureaus, etc. fairly equally, so if you're a flat tax type, then both income and self-employment tax must seem like it should be flat, and if you're a progressive tax type, then not so flat. I tend to be of the latter type, since I think more in terms of equal "sacrifice" then equal tax itself. Perhaps not the place for such discussions, though...though I do enjoy learning about how other countries handle these issues, and broaden my views! Thanks much for your input!


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Tortuga Torta said:


> Interesting point, snikpoh. I can see some sense to that. Then again, I suppose in some sense you can make the same argument to all taxes, since we all use roads, police, bureaus, etc. fairly equally, so if you're a flat tax type, then both income and self-employment tax must seem like it should be flat, and if you're a progressive tax type, then not so flat. I tend to be of the latter type, since I think more in terms of equal "sacrifice" then equal tax itself. Perhaps not the place for such discussions, though...though I do enjoy learning about how other countries handle these issues, and broaden my views! Thanks much for your input!


The big point though, is that SS payments are NOT a tax - they're a payment for services!


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## Tortuga Torta (Jan 23, 2016)

snikpoh said:


> The big point though, is that SS payments are NOT a tax - they're a payment for services!


Too tempted to respond. I thought that was the definition of a tax when a government does it. As in:

tax. _n._ a *sum of money* demanded by a government for its support or *for *specific facilities or *services*. 

And searching online for "tax" and "social security", generally you see the term "social security tax" used. Perhaps things are different in Spain, but it's hard to see how that could be. 

Again, thanks.


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## Elyles (Aug 30, 2012)

Tortuga Torta said:


> Too tempted to respond. I thought that was the definition of a tax when a government does it. As in: tax. n. a sum of money demanded by a government for its support or for specific facilities or services. And searching online for "tax" and "social security", generally you see the term "social security tax" used. Perhaps things are different in Spain, but it's hard to see how that could be. Again, thanks.


 Things are different here. SS and pensions are not taxed.


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