# US passport renewal without IRS filing



## fgarlic

Background: US-Austrian dual, born in US to non-US parents. Studied and worked in US in 1990s, last filed US taxes in 1998. Have been outside US ever since, save for two short trips. Have current Austrian passport and expired US passport. My wife and kids are not US citizens.

I know about the tax filing requirement for US expats but have been putting off doing anything about it. Am not wealthy and in theory won’t owe anything, but I’ve just been putting it off.

Now, I want to visit the US with my family, so I am supposed to renew my US passport. I last did this in 2007 with no problems, that passport expired last year.

With the recent new regulations, is renewing my US passport still a reasonable thing to do? Would that risk tipping off the IRS and triggering a check before I can voluntarily file for amnesty? Can applying for a US passport create any sort of new problems or make the situation worse? What is the level of risk here and what other options do I have?

This is a one-time trip, I won’t need the US passport for anything else.


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## Bevdeforges

While it's true that they ask for your US Social Security number (which you obviously have, having worked in the US for some period of time), I haven't heard of them actually following up on someone who applies for a passport but hasn't been filing returns. Generally they don't bother folks unless there is some evidence that they might owe lots and lots of taxes (like when Boris Johnson sold his 4 million pound home). 
Cheers,
Bev


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## Nononymous

First of all, don't "put off" US tax filing unless you put it off indefinitely. You have no need to be compliant with US taxes. I am in exactly the same situation as you, though in Canada, and have no intention of ever filing a US return. There is zero risk to remaining non-compliant, and plenty of risk that life will one day get complicated and expensive if you try to remain compliant. You have nothing to gain by filing.

Passport renewal should be okay. There is no evidence that the US is capable of cross-referencing the social security number used on the passport application with anyone's tax status. (And really what would it tell them? You might be staying home looking after the kids instead of earning an income, in which case you'd be completely below the filing threshold and, funnily enough, compliant.) If you want a bit of extra security you could - oops - "accidentally" transpose a few digits of your SSN on the application.

I travel to the US on a Canadian passport with US birthplace and only once have I been told to get a US passport. But we have no ESTA waivers to deal with, as Canadians. You might not be as easily able to fly on an Austrian passport.

Given that you have a US birthplace, have you experienced any problems with your banks in Austria? Are they aware of your US citizenship? If not, don't volunteer that information or you could face restrictions on services, and will be asked to give them your SSN so that your account info can be reported to the US under FATCA. (Which would not necessarily mean that you should start filing US tax returns.)


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## fgarlic

@Bevdeforges: This is also my understanding. I'm just wondering about the level of risk. Are we 80% sure about this or 99%?

@Nononymous: That's a whole separate discussion, but indeed I've really just been putting off the decision of whether to file at all and am still weighing my long-term options.

The benefits of filing:

1. Not filing could eventually get more uncomfortable if things like FACTA get expanded.
2. I may eventually be in line for a moderate-sized US inheritance.
3. In theory filing won't cost me anything other than time.
4. There are always a few crazy nightmare scenarios, where we need to flee to the US or whatever.

The benefits of not filing (ever):

1. Can probably get away with it. The US has limited info and even more limited enforcement options, and those enforcement options would cost them way more than they would bring in.
2. These laws may also get better. I mean, this should happen, right?
3. Filing might not be free, I might end up owing something after all.
4. Filing sounds like a huge headache.

But that's a decision for another time.

Flying to the US with an expired US passport and valid other passport sounds a bit tricky. My understanding is that while the US can't deny citizens entry, airlines are not supposed to let you on an airplane without valid documentation.

I've had one situation where a bank asked me for an insane amount of US-related information after noticing that I was born in the US, so I just went to a different bank. If enough banks start doing this, it could become a pain.


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## Nononymous

fgarlic said:


> @Bevdeforges: This is also my understanding. I'm just wondering about the level of risk. Are we 80% sure about this or 99%?


99+ percent sure you would suffer no consequences from passport renewal. Probably worth doing if you need to file an ESTA waiver and aren't completely confident that the airline would let you on the plane with only an Austrian passport (plus expired US if needed).

I renewed mine five years ago but took care to cover my tracks - used a temporary address during a six-month stay outside Canada.



> @Nononymous: That's a whole separate discussion, but indeed I've really just been putting off the decision of whether to file at all and am still weighing my long-term options.


There is no rush. Don't let the passport issue force your decision.



> 2. I may eventually be in line for a moderate-sized US inheritance.


May or may not be an issue - further research required.



> 3. In theory filing won't cost me anything other than time.


Not yet, anyway. But eventually it might.



> 4. There are always a few crazy nightmare scenarios, where we need to flee to the US or whatever.


Fleeing *from* the US is just as likely, though right now it seems like the US and Europe are in a race to the bottom when it comes to electing Nazis.



> I've had one situation where a bank asked me for an insane amount of US-related information after noticing that I was born in the US, so I just went to a different bank. If enough banks start doing this, it could become a pain.


Indeed. And that's the point at which you may need to consider renouncing. Just be aware that you don't need to comply to renounce.


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## fgarlic

Yes, I would need an ESTA waiver if I wasn't a US citizen. The rest of my family needs a Visa.

Would using a temporary address for the passport application really help? If the IRS ever wants to contact you abroad, is there any advantage to being unreachable?

My understanding is that you can’t renounce without a document from the IRS which confirms that you are current on your taxes. Even if you can somehow do that, renouncing without first complying with the filing obligation seems like it’s just asking for trouble.


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## Nononymous

fgarlic said:


> Would using a temporary address for the passport application really help? If the IRS ever wants to contact you abroad, is there any advantage to being unreachable?


To me it was hugely satisfying to know that if the IRS ever sent me a letter, I would not receive it, and my whereabouts could not be easily traced.



> My understanding is that you can’t renounce without a document from the IRS which confirms that you are current on your taxes. Even if you can somehow do that, renouncing without first complying with the filing obligation seems like it’s just asking for trouble.


Happily, your understanding is wrong. Renunciation is completely separate from tax compliance. The consulate will not ask about your tax status, and no document from the IRS is required. Renouncing without being compliant is becoming increasingly common (based on very subjective evidence - this and other online forums) because people have figured out that there is no way for the IRS to punish anyone who cannot already be punished. The only consequence is being deemed to have "covered expatriate" status, which is basically meaningless unless you plan to leave or give money to a tax-compliant US citizen.

If I were living in Europe and faced banking difficulties, I would renounce but ignore tax compliance. Since I live in Canada, where banks do very little to enforce FATCA (they ask about US citizenship but do not require that you produce ID showing place of birth, so you simply answer no to the question) I have no need to spend the money on renunciation, nor any reason to become compliant. 

That strategy is of course based on the current legal situation. In the future things may change.


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## fgarlic

Aha. That's good to know. Indeed, that could be an option. Renewing my passport now won't have any effect on my ability to renounce later, will it?

I'm still a little bit skeptical of renunciation, though. Yes, it stops the clock on new filing requirements, but I already have 20 years of those. Expats who haven't filed have several "lines of defense" against the IRS:

1. The IRS doesn't know or care about them.
2. The IRS couldn't reasonably impose fines even if they did know and care.
3. The IRS would face poor PR if they ever went after someone "normal" who is a citizen (or even just resident) of another country. This is the kind of thing which could motivate other countries to stand up more for their own citizens or residents and start pushing back against US requirements.

Renouncing seems like a kind of splashy event which is somewhat inconsistent with staying "normal" and under the radar.

Regarding the passport renewal: is there anyone here who can play devil's advocate and tell me why renewing my US passport now is a bad idea? I am just about to schedule an appointment at my local US embassy for a DS-82.


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## fgarlic

I should mention one other thing: my wife and kids will be applying for US Visas (DS-160) at the same time and in the same embassy where I will be applying for my US passport renewal (DS-82).

(They all have passports from my wife's country where we had all lived and which doesn't have a Visa Waiver program with the US.)

This won't affect the situation wrt. the IRS, will it?


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## Bevdeforges

I see you've gotten good information from Nononymous. I've been "out of commission" the last couple of days with a minor malady so only nominally online here.

Just to add a bit to what you've already been told:

The chances of the IRS trying to contact you overseas are slim to none and getting slimmer all the time. They used to have 4 or 5 overseas offices (most of them in Europe) but those got shut down a few years ago "for budget reasons." And given the current administration's tax situation, it's doubtful the IRS will be getting any budget increases any time soon. As it is, they only look into tax returns where they believe there is the potential for a "sufficient return" (i.e. collection of unpaid taxes). It's rare indeed that they open up a case for someone overseas who hasn't been filing.

And on the matter of renouncing, I have a friend in Germany who just renounced. Took them a good six months to get her CLN to her (which seems to be the current standard), but she never did do anything about filing taxes. Under the German tax treaty, Germany retains the right to tax all pensions, including US Social Security, so she hadn't been filing (due to insufficient income) and nothing ever came up about that. 

Honestly, I don't think the State Department and the IRS get along all that well, and although the Consulate "have to" collect SS numbers from those renewing their passports, I'm not at all sure that anything is done with the information if and when the IRS receives it. 

As far as traveling to the US on your Austrian passport, I do think the big "risk" is probably that of the airline denying you boarding if some eagle-eyed check-in clerk notices the US birthplace. I know of two sisters, both born in the US, but not resident there since they were children, who went to the US at different times, both on their "other" passport. One breezed through with no problem. The other got stopped and hauled off to "interrogation" for an hour, leaving her mother (a naturalized US citizen) fretting in the terminal. The way things are going these days, I'd do anything to avoid going that route - especially if you have family members with you who are waiting for your "release." 

I'm not sure that it's necessary to give a false or temporary address when renewing your passport. Theoretically, at least, the State Department and the IRS aren't supposed to "share" information like that unless they specifically state that they are doing so (i.e. SSN). There is also nothing to say that you didn't just move shortly after you received your new passport. There is no obligation to notify State or the IRS or any other US agency of a change of address overseas. 

One thing to be careful of - when entering the US on your US passport with your children in tow, some ambitious immigration agent might question whether or not the kids should have US passports. I don't know how long you worked in the US, but technically speaking you automatically pass US nationality to your kids if you were physically present in the US for at least 5 years, two of which were after the age of 14. If asked (and it's not terribly likely you will be, but just in case) just tell them that you don't meet the requirements to pass on US nationality and leave it at that. Don't mention that you studied and worked in the US.

And yes, I concur with Nononymous about the likelihood that any of us dual nationals will be looking to free TO the US in the next ten years. If you need or want a US passport after that, you'll be able to evaluate the situation at that time.
Cheers,
Bev


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## fgarlic

Thanks for the detailed comments, this is really helpful.

Actually I had misunderstood the requirements for my kids' US citizenship. I did spend well over 5 years in the US so indeed they are US citizens.

https://travel.state.gov/content/tr...isition-US-Citizenship-Child-Born-Abroad.html

This raises the question of whether I should apply for their US passports instead of Visas. Technically, I guess I am supposed to. Currently they have just the passports of their country of birth and don't have any US paperwork of any kind.

I would actually prefer to not establish their US citizenship now so that I don't saddle them with the whole "accidental American" responsibilities later on. They can always establish their US citizenship later if they want to. Any thought about this? Can their Visa applications be rejected on the grounds that they are US citizens?


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## Bevdeforges

I wouldn't worry about this if I were you. They have no way to determine that your kids are (or aren't) US citizens if they don't have US birthplaces. On the (very) off chance the subject ever comes up, I'd just say that you don't qualify to pass on your US nationality and leave it at that. If you have to, just lie about how long you spent in the US after the age of 14. 

It's not an issue that draws much attention these days and there are plenty of folks out there who have no idea what the rules are for passing on US nationality. Most folks believe that if you don't register your child's birth with the consulate that they aren't US citizens. And, if the kids themselves decide they want to become US citizens, they can provide all the necessary "proof" when they become adults. It's honestly not worth the hassle for a simple vacation trip.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Nononymous

I have nothing to add, really.

Renewing the passport isn't going to have any negative effects on later renunciation or tax status. Back when it was free to document relinquishing, you wouldn't want to do it, but now that relinquishment costs the same as renunciation there's no real advantage unless you're back-dating loss of citizenship for tax reasons.


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## fgarlic

Thank you both, this was really helpful. I'll start the applications for my passport renewal (DS-82) and my wife & kids' B-2 Visas (DS-160) and report back if something unusual happens.


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## fgarlic

One quick follow-up:

On the DS-160 applicants don't need to state their parents' nationalities or places of birth, even when those applicants are children who will travel with their parents to the US. So, as Bevdeforges said, the State Department doesn't seem very interested in flushing out accidental Americans and forcing them to get passports instead of Visas.


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## twostep

You understand that you cannot renounce a minor's US citizenship?


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## Bevdeforges

twostep said:


> You understand that you cannot renounce a minor's US citizenship?


I don't think that is what the OP is trying to do here. 
Cheers,
Bev


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## Nononymous

In this case the OP has not registered the children's birth with the US consulate, so even though they are entitled to US citizenship (based on his having met the residence criteria to pass it on) the US government has no knowledge of their existence. And he should do everything in his power to keep it that way, so the children are not faced with US tax or FATCA problems later in life.

There is a small concern that a particularly eagle-eyed customs officer might question why the children don't have US passports if one parent does, but I think that is very unlikely and the worst that could happen is he gets told to look into it after the trip.


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## fgarlic

Exactly. When my kids are older I will explain their options to them and they can then decide what to do.

It might actually be a little complicated for me to prove that I did stay in the US for more than five years as an adult. We'll deal with that later (if at all).


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## Bevdeforges

The "traditional" way of handling that is to assemble whatever documents you have to prove your adult residence in the US (payslips, transcripts, old passports, etc.) and put them together in a sealed envelope that you inform the kids about when you explain their possible claim on US citizenship. If they need or want to use it, they can. Otherwise they don't.

I admit that, in the current climate back in the US, there is no telling what "might" happen, but as far as applying for visas, most consulate employees are just going to process the paperwork and move on. If anyone mentions anything at the border, just say you were only "x" years old (any number less than 14) when you left the US and let it go at that. (The old saw about only answering the question you're asked and not "volunteering" any further information.)
Cheers,
Bev


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## heatherb

Hello! How’d you get on with getting your US passport? Hopefully all went well and no hiccups! 
How long did it take to get your new passport? I’m sending mine by courier next week - wondering how quickly you got yours back?
🙂


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## kattenbu

Hey folks. February 2019 now. Does anyone have updated info on the risks of applying to renew a US passport if you've never filed a US tax return in, like, fifty years?


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## Nononymous

No updated info, because nothing has changed. All the advice given earlier in this thread still applies. 

When you renew a US passport you are required to provide your SSN (or enter all zeroes on the form if you don't have one). Presumably at some point after that the State Department sends the IRS a list of names and SSNs. There is no evidence that the IRS has ever attempted to contact a non-compliant US citizen after they renewed their passport. 

And given that the risks of non-compliance are near-zero in most situations, it's not like anything would happen if the IRS did start sending out postcards.


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## mafm31988

*Tax Situation*

Background: Born in the US (w/ US passport and SSN) and grew up in the Philippines ever since. Was just made recently aware of the requirement for filing US taxes regardless of place of residence. Annual salary is well below the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion threshold. I understand that even if technically, I have no taxes due because of the exclusion, filing still needs to be made. I only visit the US on short and very seldom trips (i.e. once in the past 15 years). My passport expiry is coming and based on quick searches, SSN needs to be provided for IRS review purposes. 

Question: For a person not having filed any taxes ever, and with annual salaries over the past 7 years all within the Foreign Income Exclusion, what unforeseen risks are implicated in passport renewal if I continue to not file my income tax? Will a "no record" in the IRS cause any complications to my passport renewal? Or will providing my SSN in the passport renewal process "incorporate" me in the system for IRS monitoring?


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## Bevdeforges

To be perfectly honest about it all, it doesn't seem that the IRS actually "reviews" the SSN of passport renewals - at least not at the moment. There are any number of very valid reasons you might not have filed a return so they don't bother with checking for "no return filed" in general - only if they KNOW you owe at least $50,000 in back taxes (in which case they can withhold your passport if they "catch" it).


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## underation

mafm31988 said:


> Question: For a person not having filed any taxes ever, and with annual salaries over the past 7 years all within the Foreign Income Exclusion, what unforeseen risks are implicated in passport renewal if I continue to not file my income tax? Will a "no record" in the IRS cause any complications to my passport renewal? Or will providing my SSN in the passport renewal process "incorporate" me in the system for IRS monitoring?


The statute that allows the IRS to interfere with passport issuance only applies if the individual has an assessed, legally enforceable debt of $52,000 or more.



> If you have seriously delinquent tax debt, IRC § 7345 authorizes the IRS to certify that debt to the State Department for action. The State Department generally will not issue a passport to you after receiving certification from the IRS.
> 
> *Certification of Individuals With Seriously Delinquent Tax Debt*
> 
> Certification of Individuals With Seriously Delinquent Tax Debt
> 
> Seriously delinquent tax debt is an individual's unpaid, legally enforceable federal tax debt totaling more than $52,000 (including interest and penalties) for which a:
> 
> * Notice of federal tax lien has been filed and all administrative remedies under IRC § 6320 have lapsed or been exhausted or
> 
> * Levy has been issued
> 
> Seriously delinquent tax debt is limited to liabilities incurred under Title 26 of the United States Code and does not include debts collected by the IRS such as the FBAR Penalty and Child Support.


https://www.irs.gov/businesses/smal...l-of-passport-in-case-of-certain-unpaid-taxes

That (having a seriously delinquent tax debt) is not something that can happen to you if you've never even filed.

Laws can change, of course. In theory Congress could pass a new law linking passport renewal to failure to file (rather than failure to pay), but at present, that's not the case and hasn't been proposed, and may never be proposed.


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## Nononymous

You won't have any problems renewing a US passport even if you've never filed US tax returns. They will issue the passport without checking your filing status. As others have mentioned, you only risk denial if you have been filing and somehow owe the IRS a lot of money. Also, if you want an additional layer of security, you can - oopsie! - mix up a few digits of the SSN on your application form. 

The important thing is, do not start filing US tax returns and FBARs simply because you need a new passport. Stay out of the system. 

With a US birthplace, are you facing any issues with your banks in the Phillipines? If they ask about US citizenship and you answer yes, your account balances could be reported to the US under FATCA, though there is currently no evidence that the IRS does anything with this information. But you can avoid the whole problem by not admitting to US citizenship. (It's harder to avoid if you open a new account and they want to see ID that shows birthplace, which is the case in some European countries.)


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## underation

Nononymous said:


> You won't have any problems renewing a US passport even if you've never filed US tax returns.


Happily, it's the other way round.  

You won't have any problems *unless* you've been filing US tax returns (and have failed to pay the tax assessed).



> if you want an additional layer of security, you can - oopsie! - mix up a few digits of the SSN on your application form.


There's no reason to give a false SSN, unless you just enjoy playing games with bureaucratic rules.


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## mafm31988

Bevdeforges said:


> To be perfectly honest about it all, it doesn't seem that the IRS actually "reviews" the SSN of passport renewals - at least not at the moment. There are any number of very valid reasons you might not have filed a return so they don't bother with checking for "no return filed" in general - only if they KNOW you owe at least $50,000 in back taxes (in which case they can withhold your passport if they "catch" it).


Thanks for the reply. I may be just overthinking the situation seeing that the filing process (even with the Streamlined) can be quite onerous and the potential risks of being "included in the system" once I input my SSN in the passport renewal application. Does the fact that I have not filed taxes ever, even if income is within the Foreign Income Exclusion threshold qualify me under the $52,000 tax debt mentioned?


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## Bevdeforges

mafm31988 said:


> Does the fact that I have not filed taxes ever, even if income is within the Foreign Income Exclusion threshold qualify me under the $52,000 tax debt mentioned?


Only if the IRS has contacted you seeking the money from you. Given the FEIE and FTC, you mostly likely don't owe them anything anyhow. But to enforce that $52K tax debt thing, they first have to bill you for what they claim you owe. And frankly, they have no way of knowing your foreign salary anyhow - foreign employers don't send them W-2 forms.


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## underation

Bevdeforges said:


> Only if the IRS has contacted you seeking the money from you. Given the FEIE and FTC, you mostly likely don't owe them anything anyhow. But to enforce that $52K tax debt thing, they first have to bill you for what they claim you owe. And frankly, they have no way of knowing your foreign salary anyhow - foreign employers don't send them W-2 forms.


And to be fair to the US, there's no reason to suspect them of wanting to refuse passports to non-filing US citizens living outside the US. Most US citizens living and working outside the US simply don't have any untaxed US-source income and don't owe US tax.


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## mafm31988

underation said:


> That (having a seriously delinquent tax debt) is not something that can happen to you if you've never even filed.
> 
> Laws can change, of course. In theory Congress could pass a new law linking passport renewal to failure to file (rather than failure to pay), but at present, that's not the case and hasn't been proposed, and may never be proposed.


@underation Thank you for your input. Think it makes me more at ease with my situation. Going about filing (even if none are due based on the FEIE clauses) requires a lot of work and I just want to make sure that I don't do any unnecessary actions.


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## mafm31988

Nononymous said:


> You won't have any problems renewing a US passport even if you've never filed US tax returns. They will issue the passport without checking your filing status. As others have mentioned, you only risk denial if you have been filing and somehow owe the IRS a lot of money. Also, if you want an additional layer of security, you can - oopsie! - mix up a few digits of the SSN on your application form.
> 
> The important thing is, do not start filing US tax returns and FBARs simply because you need a new passport. Stay out of the system.
> 
> With a US birthplace, are you facing any issues with your banks in the Phillipines? If they ask about US citizenship and you answer yes, your account balances could be reported to the US under FATCA, though there is currently no evidence that the IRS does anything with this information. But you can avoid the whole problem by not admitting to US citizenship. (It's harder to avoid if you open a new account and they want to see ID that shows birthplace, which is the case in some European countries.)


@Nononymous Thank you for the lengthy reply, much appreciated. I think I'll stick to input my actual SSN to avoid any complications (i.e. Fraud). Yes the US birthplace does pose some additional issues even in the Philippines due to FATCA but most of my accounts and financials were established pre-2014 so it's not really an issue. Also when they find out that I'm a dual (US-Phil.), they simply just tick "not a US person" which I suspect is just to reduce their paperwork and simplify their process.


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## Nononymous

Just renew your passport, reporting your SSN correctly or not, and you should expect no delays nor contact from the IRS. No need to undertake US tax compliance - big mistake.


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## Nononymous

mafm31988 said:


> Also when they find out that I'm a dual (US-Phil.), they simply just tick "not a US person" which I suspect is just to reduce their paperwork and simplify their process.


That is good news. I expect that banks in many countries around the world take a similarly dim view of reporting dual-citizen residents to the IRS, so don't count these customers as US persons. In Canada the question is asked but the answer is never checked, so it's very simple to lie and avoid the whole mess when opening a new account.


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## underation

mafm31988 said:


> @underation Thank you for your input. Think it makes me more at ease with my situation. Going about filing (even if none are due based on the FEIE clauses) requires a lot of work and I just want to make sure that I don't do any unnecessary actions.



You're welcome. I was in a similar situation a few years back (had lived in the UK for decades, never heard of a requirement to file US taxes). I chose to renounce, in order to be able to continue banking without being subject to any US regulations, i.e. FATCA.

If I had kept my US citizenship, I wouldn't have started filing US tax returns, because I have no untaxed US-source income that I need to report. All my income is fully taxed by the UK and is therefore exempt by the double-tax treaty from being taxed again by the US, and does not have to be reported as Gross Income - therefore I had no requirement to file. See https://www.irs.gov/individuals/int...nd-resident-aliens-abroad-filing-requirements

If you're in a similar situation (does your country have a tax treaty with the US?), you might want to consider carefully whether it's necessary or desirable to start filing US returns. (There can be advantages, so consider the pros as well as the cons  )


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## Msweet42

FWIW, I'm a longtime Canadian resident who has not filed for many years. I renewed my passport last December with no issues.

If you have a serious unresolved tax issue, something over $51,000 I believe, the IRS can have the State Department revoke, refuse to issue, or refuse to renew a passport. You get lumped in there with delinquent child support folks and convicted felons with court orders to not leave the country.


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