# Border Violence



## Marishka (Feb 1, 2009)

After reading ElPaso2012's post about Juárez, I got curious and checked La Seguridad Pública y la Justicia statistics for Juárez. Then I checked the FBI statistics for El Paso. I was shocked by the difference in the homicide rates of these cities that are just across the border from one another. 

Juárez_____48.97 homicides per 100,000
El Paso_______2.4 homicides per 100,000

Then I looked up some other cities that are across the border from one another and compared them.

Tijuana____20.50 homicides per 100,000
San Diego____2.9 homicides per 100,000

Matamoros____30.87 homicides per 100,000
Brownsville______0.6 homicides per 100,000.

When I was a student at the University of Texas in 1971, a UT biochemist suggested that the El Paso murder rate was so low because of the high levels of lithium in El Paso’s water supply. Of course, that got a lot of press. _TIME_ magazine called it "The Texas Tranquilizer,” and it was even referenced in _The Stepford Wives_ when Bobbie and Joanna were trying to figure out why all the women of Stepford were changing into “model housewives.” I think we probably all agree that the drinking water can’t be the reason for El Paso’s low homicide rate! Although, my husband and I drink Crazy Water from Mineral Wells, Texas, which also contains lithium, and come to think of it, we’ve never murdered anyone. :lol:

Seriously, what is the real reason the homicide rates are so low in the border cities I mentioned that are on the U.S. side of the border, but so high on the Mexican side? Does anyone know?


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

You left out Mexicali.

I figure it is due to criminal organizations stealing each others money and products and trying to be the only ones in town collecting extortion money from whoever they want to without being run out of town. 

Sort of like the Bloods and Crips in LA in the 70s in many neighborhoods. The violence then was incredible. Most of them were in state prisons before it slowed down.

Here it seems they cannot round up these gang members very fast and most people are afraid to help get them and find them.


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## ElPaso2012 (Dec 16, 2012)

Marishka said:


> After reading ElPaso2012's post about Juárez, I got curious and checked La Seguridad Pública y la Justicia statistics for Juárez. Then I checked the FBI statistics for El Paso. I was shocked by the difference in the homicide rates of these cities that are just across the border from one another.
> 
> Juárez_____48.97 homicides per 100,000
> El Paso_______2.4 homicides per 100,000
> ...


It's true. El Paso is a very safe place to live. Spillover violence is not something people here worry about either. 

I didn't know there was lithium in the water, though, but it may explain why I've been doing nothing this week but researching and posting on the forum when I need to be hard at work on the process of getting this property ready for sale. I've put bottled water on the grocery list just in case there's something to the theory you cited.


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## tepetapan (Sep 30, 2010)

I went to high school in Brownsville, have friends and family in Brownsville and follow along with the Brownsville Herald. The numbers you posted are not even close. But I doubt anyone would bother fudging the numbers for the FBI. 
Chicago and LA rates run in the 15 to 16 per 100,000 in good years. The entire USA runs at around 5 per 100,000. Any large city will have more deaths due to murder than a small village in the middle of the corn fields of Iowa. Then add into the mix, a border town. 
the math just does not work.


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## ElPaso2012 (Dec 16, 2012)

AlanMexicali said:


> You left out Mexicali.
> 
> I figure it is due to criminal organizations stealing each others money and products and trying to be the only ones in town collecting extortion money from whoever they want to without being run out of town.
> 
> ...


You have that extortion thing going in Mexicali, too, huh? 

It's endemic in Juarez, especially if an American is trying to run the business. One day I wandered into a very nice internet cafe and got into a conversation with the owner. He was from El Paso but had also spent a big part of his life with family in Juarez. So he "fit it" there. 

He had made the internet cafe into a real cafe, with a kitchen serving up hamburgers, burritos, etc. The computers were great, too, since he had been doing PC repair in El Paso he obviously knew how to make a nice machine. When I asked how business was, he said it was booming. His only problem, he explained, was that people were crawling out of the woodwork wanting money for repairs that had been done to the space before he had rented it. Some of them he had just paid with the understanding it was a final payment; others he was contesting.

Well, I did a piece on his shop and published it and stopped by to bring him a color printout of the article. While I was there, a sharply dressed man in his fifties came in the door, and they went to the side and talked about ten minutes. When he came back he said the man had told him that he needed to pay $400 a month for "accounting" services but he knew it was really just extortion. He was very rattled. "I'm afraid to say no, but I can't pay that." Two weeks later he had closed up shop. 

I wonder how prevalent that kind of thing is on the interior.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

It is really something that anybody would not mention to anyone else, as far as I know, not even a spouse. That is just the way it is.

Here I would bet getting a larger security company involved with alarms, closed circuit TV and armored car companies involved with a good accountant keeps them away. Many state of the art security companies have radio phones connected and have servers that record the closed circuit TVs at their building.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

ElPaso2012 said:


> I wonder how prevalent that kind of thing is on the interior.


Very much so, I believe. I know it's a big problem in parts of Mexico City. And in the tourist zones of Acapulco where scores of businesses closed their doors partly because of much reduced foreign tourism and also beause of extortion. The cartels have branched-out into all forms of illegal and crimial activities. Kidnapping, thefts of shipments (including oil from Pemex pipelines); extortion; counterfeit merchandise. The cartels get away with this in large part because the average person is afraid to interact with and report crimes to the police ... because, in so many parts of the country, the police are part of the criminal element. Extortion has also, historically, been perpetuated/carried out by persons in the employ of the government who misuse the strength of their positions to shake-down not only businesspersons but the 'man on the street.' This and all other forms of corruption are so very present in the culture and daily life of the country and that's why I refer to the behavior as part of the national DNA. It's been going on from a time long before the cartels and terrorists came onto the scene.


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## vantexan (Sep 4, 2011)

I've lived in Eagle Pass and McAllen, TX as well as Deming, NM. I seem to recall a San Antonio newspaper article that speculated that homicides were so few on the American side because cartels wanted to avoid bringing the American government into the conflict. I used to walk to and from work in McAllen and never felt threatened, even after dark. A number of Hispanics there told me they believed their culture in Texas was very different than in California.


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## ElPaso2012 (Dec 16, 2012)

vantexan said:


> I've lived in Eagle Pass and McAllen, TX as well as Deming, NM. I seem to recall a San Antonio newspaper article that speculated that homicides were so few on the American side because cartels wanted to avoid bringing the American government into the conflict. I used to walk to and from work in McAllen and never felt threatened, even after dark. A number of Hispanics there told me they believed their culture in Texas was very different than in California.


I think you are quite right, VanTexan, about them being smart enough to keep it on the other side of the river. Here in El Paso a man was murdered in his driveway one morning as he was leaving for work. It turned out that he was mixed up in the drug trade, and a stray bullet from Juarez somehow found it's way into the side of City Hall one night. But that's about it in the way of spillover violence. There were a few hysterical calls from some loonies in Austin to send in the state troops, but we didn't want them, didn't need them, and had a special meeting to tell them so. There may be a few more incidents, but it's not something we worry about because the authorities are not going to put up with cartel violence in El Paso.


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## laurenS147 (Aug 23, 2013)

*interior violence*



Longford said:


> Very much so, I believe. I know it's a big problem in parts of Mexico City. .


This is interesting. I wonder what the actual numbers are compared to the border towns.


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## Marishka (Feb 1, 2009)

AlanMexicali said:


> You left out Mexicali.


Here's an updated list with more cities added (once again, I used statistics from the FBI and La Seguridad Pública y la Justicia):

Mexicali_____15.9 homicides per 100,000
Calexico______1.0 homicides per 100,000

Nuevo Laredo____72.85 homicides per 100,000
Laredo___________4.6 homicides per 100,000

Reynosa_____12.31 homicides per 100,000
McAllen_______3.0 homicides per 100,000

Juárez_____48.97 homicides per 100,000
El Paso______2.4 homicides per 100,000

Matamoros____30.87 homicides per 100,000
Brownsville_____0.6 homicides per 100,000

Tijuana____20.50 homicides per 100,000
San Diego___2.9 homicides per 100,000


I found an old _New York Times_ article dated January 22, 2009 that raised the same question about El Paso and Juárez: 
Two Sides of a Border: One Violent, One Peaceful


> Experts say many factors have kept violence at bay in El Paso, from a high concentration of law enforcement officials because of border operations to fear of the death penalty in Texas.
> 
> But some have other theories. Mayor Cook, for one, thinks the problems in Juárez began when a Mexican crackdown on drug dealers backfired. The operation smashed the drug-distribution network on the Mexican side, leading to turf wars. That has not happened on the United States side, Mr. Cook said, but if it did, he said, a similar crime wave could erupt.
> 
> Worries that the violence in Mexico could spread to the United States reach to the highest levels of the federal government. Last week, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said the Bush administration had laid plans to send a surge of federal agents and soldiers to trouble spots if the violence spilled over.


Yet here we are close to five years later with little to no spillover violence.


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## ElPaso2012 (Dec 16, 2012)

Yes, we are five years down the road with no adverse carryover from across the river. At the time of the article you cite, the Bush administration and the governor's office both seemed to be reacting as though violence had _already_ spilled over despite emphatic statements from the mayor, the police chief, and sheriff that it was not. It took quite a bit of persuasion to get them to stand down. As far was what happened in Juarez to spark the onset of the madness, Cook is pretty close to the mark. Before the massive attempt by the feds in Mexico to wage war with the cartels they managed to do their killing in private, so to speak. Once the world went to war with them, though, and the city was flooded with soldiers, Federales, and state police things went haywire.


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## ElPaso2012 (Dec 16, 2012)

Anyone who wants a more in depth understanding of the problems in Juarez should definitely read some of  Debbie Nathan's articles in the old Texas Observer archives. Of all the journalists who ever interviewed me about Juarez, she was the only real truth seeker. As you will see in the article referenced above, Ms. Nathan will get in a cab and go to the worst parts of the city to get the real story straight from the people. She recently took great interest in the women of our discussion forum who must come to Juarez to deal with the US Consulate there on immigration matters and will no doubt be publishing something on that subject soon. I can't say enough about her journalism.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

ElPaso2012 said:


> Anyone who wants a more in depth understanding of the problems in Juarez should definitely read some of  Debbie Nathan's articles in the old Texas Observer archives. Of all the journalists who ever interviewed me about Juarez, she was the only real truth seeker. As you will see in the article referenced above, Ms. Nathan will get in a cab and go to the worst parts of the city to get the real story straight from the people. She recently took great interest in the women of our discussion forum who must come to Juarez to deal with the US Consulate there on immigration matters and will no doubt be publishing something on that subject soon. I can't say enough about her journalism.


Speaking of the US Consulate in Juarez… Recently, I met the woman in charge of the visa section there. She was in Guadalajara on a temporary assignment, because that position is or was vacant in Gdl. She said that the Juarez Consulate visa section is the largest in the world. There are something like 300 people doing visa interviews there.


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## ElPaso2012 (Dec 16, 2012)

TundraGreen said:


> Speaking of the US Consulate in Juarez… Recently, I met the woman in charge of the visa section there. She was in Guadalajara on a temporary assignment, because that position is or was vacant in Gdl. She said that the Juarez Consulate visa section is the largest in the world. There are something like 300 people doing visa interviews there.


That sounds about right, and the process of getting a visa was extremely arduous, expensive, and in many cases quite arbitrary. Most of our members were women in the US living through the ordeal so they could get their husbands into the US, or back into the US since many had been deported. There were kids involved, separation, hardship, setbacks --- I mean real pain, real heartache involved. I could not personally even read the forum every day. Some of their stories would break your heart... some of the decisions and policies of the consulate were just unbelievably devastating to these families and in many cases quite unfair, and there were hundreds of these stories. 

My forum moderator was an amazing woman --- a great researcher, pro-active about getting immigration attorneys and other experts to answer questions for free and write articles for them, and having lived through the process herself had empathy with the posters from first hand experience. Before I knew it she had brought the forum up to the point a dedicated server was required to maintain it without slowing down my other sites. I hired her because I wanted somebody to 1) keep the spam and porn out of the posts; 2) run off the trolls, and 3) keep me out of hot water in a legal sense. Twenty minutes a day, max, at that time. The forum was probably the least important component of my business. In fact, it was a pain in the neck. But she turned it into a community of tens of thousands... What she did was selfless and rather astonishing to me. I think Ms. Nathan was impressed as well and look forward to seeing her article. We took it down in March of this year, I think. I supported it as long as I could, but in retirement I simply could not afford the expense any longer. But I'm rethinking that now that it's gone. 

So that's a pretty huge operation that can fuel a big forum all on its own. 

But I didn't know it was 300 people just to do the interviews. That's a lot of staff.


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## wonderphil (Sep 7, 2013)

Longford said:


> Very much so, I believe. I know it's a big problem in parts of Mexico City. And in the tourist zones of Acapulco where scores of businesses closed their doors partly because of much reduced foreign tourism and also beause of extortion. The cartels have branched-out into all forms of illegal and crimial activities. Kidnapping, thefts of shipments (including oil from Pemex pipelines); extortion; counterfeit merchandise. The cartels get away with this in large part because the average person is afraid to interact with and report crimes to the police ... because, in so many parts of the country, the police are part of the criminal element. Extortion has also, historically, been perpetuated/carried out by persons in the employ of the government who misuse the strength of their positions to shake-down not only businesspersons but the 'man on the street.' This and all other forms of corruption are so very present in the culture and daily life of the country and that's why I refer to the behavior as part of the national DNA. It's been going on from a time long before the cartels and terrorists came onto the scene.


Maybe also in the national DNA of Mexico is the fact that most people are not generally allowed to own guns. So the basically the government and the criminals own guns and "the people" do not The criminals do not have to consider getting taken out by an honest shopkeeper who they are extorting. In the USA it is a basic right to own guns. I know this right is not supported by all but I believe guns do not kill people, people kill people"


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

wonderphil said:


> Maybe also in the national DNA of Mexico is the fact that most people are not generally allowed to own guns. So the basically the government and the criminals own guns and "the people" do not The criminals do not have to consider getting taken out by an honest shopkeeper who they are extorting. In the USA it is a basic right to own guns. I know this right is not supported by all but I believe guns do not kill people, people kill people"


Just to clarify 
I find it very rude when people says "it is in Mexico's DNA" assuming that Mexico is conformed by people, therefore you are talking about people's DNA in a pejorative way.

One other thing, that I can understand since this is an expat forum and most people here do not know Mexico very well; guns are allowed in Mexico, it is legal to own a gun (rifles, shotguns, revolvers, etc) It is stated in the Constitution as well as in a Firegun and explosives law. Indeed, Mexico is not so much in love with firearms as some other Countries, but you can own a gun for protection or hunting. 
One last observation; in Mexico if a criminal is taken out by that honest shopkeeper, the honest shopkeeper would have to leave the Country before being taken out by the criminal's family or gang. Of course the shopkeeper would be right to defend himself, he would even be protected by the law, but then again, he would be a dead shopkeeper who was right.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

GARYJ65 said:


> ... therefore you are talking about people's DNA in a pejorative way.


Yes, on a national scale .. that's exactly what I meant by my reference. And you're right to be offended by the description. But being offended or embarassed by such a description doesn't necessarily make the description/reference incorrect.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Longford said:


> Yes, on a national scale .. that's exactly what I meant by my reference. And you're right to be offended by the description. But being offended or embarassed by such a description doesn't necessarily make the description/reference incorrect.


That's your opinion


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

GARYJ65 said:


> That's your opinion


Yes. And it's no less valid (as an opinion) ... than yours.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Longford said:


> Yes. And it's no less valid (as an opinion) ... than yours.


I'm sure You do believe that


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

I sense you define "opinion" differently than are the generally accepted definitions in English:

Definition of "Opinion" - Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Longford said:


> I sense you define "opinion" differently than are the generally accepted definitions in English:
> 
> Definition of "Opinion" - Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


I do define many things differently than You do


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## ElPaso2012 (Dec 16, 2012)

Marishka said:


> After reading ElPaso2012's post about Juárez, I got curious and checked La Seguridad Pública y la Justicia statistics for Juárez.


Any chance you could provide a link to the La Seguridad Pública y la Justicia numbers? I'd like to bookmark that source...


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## wonderphil (Sep 7, 2013)

GARYJ65 said:


> Just to clarify
> I find it very rude when people says "it is in Mexico's DNA" assuming that Mexico is conformed by people, therefore you are talking about people's DNA in a pejorative way.
> 
> One other thing, that I can understand since this is an expat forum and most people here do not know Mexico very well; guns are allowed in Mexico, it is legal to own a gun (rifles, shotguns, revolvers, etc) It is stated in the Constitution as well as in a Firegun and explosives law. Indeed, Mexico is not so much in love with firearms as some other Countries, but you can own a gun for protection or hunting.
> One last observation; in Mexico if a criminal is taken out by that honest shopkeeper, the honest shopkeeper would have to leave the Country before being taken out by the criminal's family or gang. Of course the shopkeeper would be right to defend himself, he would even be protected by the law, but then again, he would be a dead shopkeeper who was right.


I did not mean to be rude, however it is a fact that people tend to conform over time and many other factors are involved in all cultures. Mexico is no different. It is not specific to Mexico. look up conformity on Wikipedia. I only repeated the DNA reference and it means to me the culture of the country as a whole, not the people individually. 

Thank You;

Good points about gun ownership in Mexico and how the honest shop keeper must feel about self defense. ( I knew a small part of that because a man offered to guide me on a hunt last time I was in Mexico and I talk to him about that. 

Gun ownership and possession by expats (and Mexicans) could be a whole other topic to help us understand this complex issue.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

wonderphil said:


> Gun ownership and possession by expats (and Mexicans) could be a whole other topic to help us understand this complex issue.


And you're very welcome to start a thread dealing with this topic if you like.


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