# Moving the family toSpain



## dicky greene (Feb 2, 2010)

We have both had enough of it over here in the UK things just get worse and worse , tax this tax that .
Myself and my wife are looking at coming across to spain to live on a permanent basis with our two children , 18 months old and 5 years old , we are looking at leasing a cafe / bar in Mallorca and renting somewhere to live .
The reason i am posting on here is for some good solid advice as it is a big move to just up and go , also we have had mixed comments about what it is like for the british running bars in Spain from good to exceptionally bad .
Please help us with this decision by giving us your comments on your own experiences or stories youve heard .
Thank you very much Richard and Susan .


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

dicky greene said:


> We have both had enough of it over here in the UK things just get worse and worse , tax this tax that .
> Myself and my wife are looking at coming across to spain to live on a permanent basis with our two children , 18 months old and 5 years old , we are looking at leasing a cafe / bar in Mallorca and renting somewhere to live .
> The reason i am posting on here is for some good solid advice as it is a big move to just up and go , also we have had mixed comments about what it is like for the british running bars in Spain from good to exceptionally bad .
> Please help us with this decision by giving us your comments on your own experiences or stories youve heard .
> Thank you very much Richard and Susan .


Hi & welcome

please do a search of the forum & you'll find lots of recent discussions about running bars in Spain, living in Mallorca - & tax in Spain


have a good read


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

I think your chances of success are pretty much zero BUT I would never burst anyone´s bubble. Running a bar in Spain is horrendously difficult. Here are some questions you should ask 

1) Do I speak Spanish, Mallorquí and German? 

2) Have I experience in running a bar?

3) Have I experience in running a pub/restaurant in the UK?

4) Do I have friends/a support structure on the island? 

5) Have I been to the island often? 

6) Have I been to the island in the long off-season? 

7) Have I made arrangements for the children to be looked after for the 14/16 hours per day I will be in the bar? 

8) Have I enough money to survive the first two years of making losses every week? 

9) Have I researched the cost of moving to the island, renting an apartment and the weeks to find a "suitable" bar?

If you can honestly answer yes to those questions, you are in with a chance. If not ......

Os deseo mucha suerte or whatever they say on Mallora! (Bona sort, I think)


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

I'd agree 100% with what Steve has said - it is bloody hard work and that's from looking at the outside in at my Spanish aunt's bar (don't think she's ever had a holiday - only a couple of fiesta days and that's employing staff...roll on retirement, she can't wait). If you are seriously thinking about it, please get as much Spanish under your belt as poss before you go and definitely look at catering to the Spanish as well, not just the "in season" expats side. You'll need as much local, native support as you can possibly get ALL year round.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I cant comment on this really apart from the fact that running a bar/cafe always looks like hard work to me!! I know that due to the recession the tourist industry in Spain (and the Islands) is suffering and a lot of bars are closing. I've also heard that Mallorca is not only more expensive than the mainland, but also has much higher taxes?? But thats only hearsay!!

That all said, its a lovely place and used to be where we spent our summer holidays before we moved to Spain

Jo xxx


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Great place for a holiday! Love it and if it were not for the weather in winter, the fact that it is an island and that I cannot bring myself to learn another language ...yet.... I´d be happy to move there. The train from Palma to Soller and then the tram from Soller to the port is surely one of THE great journeys in Europe!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

dicky greene said:


> We have both had enough of it over here in the UK things just get worse and worse , tax this tax that .
> Myself and my wife are looking at coming across to spain to live on a permanent basis with our two children , 18 months old and 5 years old , we are looking at leasing a cafe / bar in Mallorca and renting somewhere to live .
> The reason i am posting on here is for some good solid advice as it is a big move to just up and go , also we have had mixed comments about what it is like for the british running bars in Spain from good to exceptionally bad .
> Please help us with this decision by giving us your comments on your own experiences or stories youve heard .
> Thank you very much Richard and Susan .


My advice would be if you have a home and job in the UK, stay put. Unemployment is averaging 20% in Spain as a whole and is probably worse in areas that rely on tourism such as Mallorca.
If your reasons for leaving the UK are political, you may not be aware that Spain has a tax and spend Socialist Government which IMO is to the left of the UK Government.
You will pay taxes wherever you go if you run a business honestly, I'm afraid.
There are pages of bars for rent/sale in our local Costa Del Sol free paper and I can't see the situation being much different in the Balearics.
The days of making an easier living in the sun are long gone, alas. UK TV programmes portaying life in Spain as one long holiday have much to answer for.
You will not automatically qualify for any social security/ health insurance and from what I have read the Spanish system is less generous than that of the UK.
As Steve has said, you will need to be fluent in Spanish and German as the Balearics probably have as many German visitors than Brits, if not more. UK tourism to Spain declined by an alarming percentage over the past two years commensurate with the decline of the £ against the euro.
You will need adequate fallback capital -I would think at least £25k for a family with children. 
I can understand you feeling that you've 'had enough' of the UK but the recession isn't confined to the UK -it's global and many commentators think Spain has yet the worse to come.
Emigrating to Spain from the UK at the current time is doable if you have a well-paying job lined up or if you are retired and don't rely solely on pension income.
Otherwise, you may find the grass is not greener....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Don't know if you read the thread entitled 'Taxes in Spain' but Stravinsky who knows about these things points out that self-employed taxation rates could be higher in Spain than the UK and as self-employed you will have to pay a social insurance fee of around 300 euros a month.
The UK may not be looking so bad, eh?


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Yes ..............and it is NOT a sliding scale so payable from "day one"


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## dicky greene (Feb 2, 2010)

*Thank you*

Thank you all for your response to my questions , it has indeed given me a great deal to think about .
My wife is so stook on moving to Spain and becoming part of its culture its rather frightening for myself , mind you even the fact of flying frightens me lol .
Since yesterday i have been talking to a rather nice gentleman who has two cafe/bars in Alacante his wife has recently passed away and he is struggling to manage both bars , so hehas made us an exceptional offer of paying a bond on one of them which also incorporates an annex .
The rent is cheap and he has said that he will also reduce the rent for the first 6 months and if either of us or the children decide it isnt for us then he will return the bond after the 6 months and leave us free to do as we wish .
I honestly believe that this is possibly the best oppertunity we will get and it will give me the chance to give my wife the life she has dreamt of .
But as they say only fools rush in so we have penciled in some time to come over and review this great oppertunity .
Again many thanks to you all for your great advice and i for one will try and work within those guidelines .

Thank you Richard 

PS ifwe do take the plundge you had best all come for a drink and a chat


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Interesting update. 

I have lived there since 2001. Alicante is a province and a city. If it is the city please be aware that there are almost zero expats in the city itself and Spaniards will NOT use an expat bar in numbers ......unless you speak FLUENT Spanish. 

As for the province I personally think that is a far better bet than Mallorca. It has a longer season, it is easier to get to/from and much cheaper and in most areas there are fewer language issues. That said bars are falling like nine-pins and in most expat areas there are far too many bars and far too few customers. I think you're throwing your money down the drain BUT with this offer you may at least have a get-out.

The rental does SOUND like a great idea but ensure you use an independent solicitor. Ensure that any bond is held in escrow. 

Blunt question - does he hold the freehold? If not and the owner finds out you could both be out on your ear. 

If it is on Flamenca Beach, Orihuela Costa I may have heard a story. I´ll PM you if that is the bar. It's a similar story but there could easily be others with deaths so I'll not comment yet. 

I have to say, it sounds more promising. If you can let us have the actual bar, area, town or whatever as there are a few on here from the CV, I am sure we can give further advice.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

dicky greene said:


> Thank you all for your response to my questions , it has indeed given me a great deal to think about .
> My wife is so stook on moving to Spain and becoming part of its culture its rather frightening for myself , mind you even the fact of flying frightens me lol .
> Since yesterday i have been talking to a rather nice gentleman who has two cafe/bars in Alacante his wife has recently passed away and he is struggling to manage both bars , so hehas made us an exceptional offer of paying a bond on one of them which also incorporates an annex .
> The rent is cheap and he has said that he will also reduce the rent for the first 6 months and if either of us or the children decide it isnt for us then he will return the bond after the 6 months and leave us free to do as we wish .
> ...


If your wife is anything like me, she wont rest til she's tried it! So try it you must lol!!!!!

However, one important thing! As far as possible DO NOT BURN YOUR BRIDGES! If it all goes "pear-shaped" you'll need a safe run back to the UK. 

As Steve says, make sure you have an indepentant lawyer working for you and looking over the deal and for heavens sake come over, when its not hot, sunny and lovely and get an objective feel for what its like!!! The winters on the mainland can be bad - its rained most of the time here since christmas and I suspect I'm flooded in my house again this morning - the rain in spain doesnt only fall on the plain and its bloody miserable!. Mallorca is apparently worse, with high winds, so maybe Alicante is better??!!?. Keep us posted tho, its interesting and helpful to know how people in your situation get on - you can offer others advise as you get familiar with your "adventure"

Good luck



Jo xxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

dicky greene said:


> Thank you all for your response to my questions , it has indeed given me a great deal to think about .
> My wife is so stook on moving to Spain and becoming part of its culture its rather frightening for myself , mind you even the fact of flying frightens me lol .
> Since yesterday i have been talking to a rather nice gentleman who has two cafe/bars in Alacante his wife has recently passed away and he is struggling to manage both bars , so hehas made us an exceptional offer of paying a bond on one of them which also incorporates an annex .
> The rent is cheap and he has said that he will also reduce the rent for the first 6 months and if either of us or the children decide it isnt for us then he will return the bond after the 6 months and leave us free to do as we wish .
> ...


Good luck but be very very wary. If something sounds too good to be true, it generally is. 
When you come over, scrutinise this 'opportunity' very carefully. Ask to see the books. If you are inexperienced in business, get an independent lawyer to check everything over in the minutest detail. This gentleman wants to divest himself of one of his businesses - the motive sounds very plausible but again: check to see how his other business is doing.
You say your wife is very keen to live in Spain. Does she have experience of lengthy stays in Spain? Or is this just a holiday thing? 'The life she has dreamt of'...what does this consist of? Spanish culture looks like 'culture' in any European country, the UK included. People wear the same clothes, watch the same films, listen to the same music, buy the same products. Alicante has an enormous percentage of British immigrants so you won't find much Spanish 'culture' there. Life in Spain isn't a dream, it's just like life everywhere else but with added sun and not always that. It can be extremely cold and wet for two or three months of the year.
We don't want to sound too depressing and offputting but it's so easy to make mistakes and your 'dream' can quickly become a nightmare. The posters on this forum are mainly retired and comfortable, not bothered by the need to seek employment, or people with jobs either working for Spanish firms or UK companies.
You haven't said if you have had any business experience of any kind, let alone the bar/restaurant trade. If you have, you will of course be aware of the need to proceed with caution.
If not, you could go on your BBC IPlayer, find 'Spain: Paradise Lost' and take a look at the story of the English couple who bought a bar in Benidorm.
A cautionary tale....


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

Richard it may be your lucky day. Talking to a friend of a friend today. She owns the freehold of a bar in Alicante. She may be prepared to let you have it rent free for a few months if you guarantee to get it back up running. 

Good Luck


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## Maddalena (Feb 6, 2010)

dicky greene said:


> Thank you all for your response to my questions , it has indeed given me a great deal to think about .
> My wife is so stook on moving to Spain and becoming part of its culture its rather frightening for myself , mind you even the fact of flying frightens me lol .
> Since yesterday i have been talking to a rather nice gentleman who has two cafe/bars in Alacante his wife has recently passed away and he is struggling to manage both bars , so hehas made us an exceptional offer of paying a bond on one of them which also incorporates an annex .
> The rent is cheap and he has said that he will also reduce the rent for the first 6 months and if either of us or the children decide it isnt for us then he will return the bond after the 6 months and leave us free to do as we wish .
> ...


Hi there: I hope you do not mind my commenting..I will say that I tend to be suspicious and sceptical. This deal with your "nice gentleman" sounds to me like a giant scam on his part. You now the old adage "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is". Please proceed with extreme caution in this venture. I think that a number of the expats who have responded to you are well worth listening to very seriously.


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