# Working for a UK company, already have a house in Spain but it's post-Brexit, what do we do?



## mynameisdawes (Apr 26, 2021)

A quick bit of background: It's me and my partner trying to move permanently to Barcelona around October to a flat that he pays a mortgage on from back when he used to live there - we both have jobs here in the UK that are happy for us to continue working remotely in Spain.

My partner had already lived in Barcelona for 7 years, has a mortgage there as I say, so he exists in the system, but he didn't have proper residency because it was pre-Brexit back then and the advice he was given rightly or wrongly was that "he didn't need it".

Both of us speak Spanish and Catalan fluently, I grew up in Valencia myself, both of us have decided the UK isn't for us anymore and whilst it makes the most sense to go and live back there, I'm finding it impossible to see what visa/permit would suit our situation, people are saying the non-lucrative one forbids you to work altogether (in which case, who has 30k just sitting in a bank collecting dust?!?), other people say that remote work is ok with it, other advice seems to be that we need to become our own entities in Spain and invoice our UK companies.

I also want to say that we only have that house because of inheritance money, we're not rich by any means, and we stay afloat by having had friends live there and pay rent, so I'm feeling a bit stuck and unhelpfully have been told "just stay where you are and save money for the non-lucrative option", but the clock is ticking, the current person we have living there now is due to move on in October just before we would like to go, so it's definitely a cause for sleepless nights.

Any advice? I understand there are more permits and visas other than just the popular ones people normally talk about, but not sure how to find out about them.


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## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

mynameisdawes said:


> A quick bit of background: It's me and my partner trying to move permanently to Barcelona around October to a flat that he pays a mortgage on from back when he used to live there - we both have jobs here in the UK that are happy for us to continue working remotely in Spain.
> 
> My partner had already lived in Barcelona for 7 years, has a mortgage there as I say, so he exists in the system, but he didn't have proper residency because it was pre-Brexit back then and the advice he was given rightly or wrongly was that "he didn't need it".
> 
> ...



And Google is your friend.

London Spanish consulate.
Scroll down and you will see PDF for all the visa's






Visas (FAQ)







www.exteriores.gob.es





But this is the bit that conforms the no work.

NON-LUCRATIVE RESIDENCE VISA
*This visa can be requested by third-country nationals who wish to reside in Spain without engaging in any work or professional activity.*
It does not apply to EU citizens or to nationals of countries to whom EU law applies, for being beneficiaries of the rights of free movement and residence.

Your choice as to which other one you want.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

You might want to check the status of your partner's residency in Spain. It's pretty unlikely that a mortgage would have been granted to somebody in an "irregular" immigration status. If he did have the green certificate and didn't de-register when he left, there is a chance he could just show up in Spain and renew the document as if he had never left. (Not suggesting that he withold the truth by the way, but maybe if the questions are not asked...)
This solution has been suggested before on here, but I'm not sure if any of the posters ever came back to confirm if it worked or not.
Failing that, you either need to get a valid visa or get EU passports.
Sadly, owning a home here doesn't grant you any additional rights or different treatment.


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## Barriej (Jul 23, 2012)

You dont need to be resident to get a mortgage, we were looking at this to finance the 'holiday home' a couple of years ago. We then went a different route.

Could have been done here easily and we even submitted the paperwork for a 70% loan against my Uk wages from a Spanish bank. Didn't need a Spanish bank account, just the usual NIE.
Was also possible to do so from the UK but the terms were not as favourable (in fact nowhere near from memory)

The Op suggests that their partner did not bother with residency so its unlikely that they would get anything back dated. Although they may have (but I dont know how the system worked in the past)
The visa choices may be limited as reading through them earlier, its unlikely that they would qualify for any of them (again the Op has said that finances are tight)


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

True, I had a mortgage from a Spanish bank as a non resident when I bought my first house in Spain, which we used as a holiday home until moving over permanently.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Yes sorry, I had understood that the OP's partner was living and working here and hence was likely to have been resident (paying tax etc.) in which case taking a non-residentos mortage would have been a silly thing to do, but it looks like I may have been wrong.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

If the OP and their parter are working remotely then they could look into becoming freelance/autonomo in Spain or setting up a company in Spain.


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## mynameisdawes (Apr 26, 2021)

Overandout said:


> Yes sorry, I had understood that the OP's partner was living and working here and hence was likely to have been resident (paying tax etc.) in which case taking a non-residentos mortage would have been a silly thing to do, but it looks like I may have been wrong.


No, that is right, it's a mortgage whilst having lived and working there, but without doing the residency stuff.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

mynameisdawes said:


> No, that is right, it's a mortgage whilst having lived and working there, but without doing the residency stuff.


If he was working and paying income tax in Spain then he would have been resident. AFAIK it's impossible to pay income tax in Spain without being a resident.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Chopera said:


> If he was working and paying income tax in Spain then he would have been resident. AFAIK it's impossible to pay income tax in Spain without being a resident.


Certainly all the jobs I've had have required me to prove residency. Having said that, unless he left relatively recently the plan to "re-use" or continue the old residency (assuming it existed) is probably not viable anymore as he would need to change to a TIE and assuming that he wouldn't have a medical policy, would need to show recent, if not up to date Social Security contributions.
I think this is too optimistic TBH...


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## mynameisdawes (Apr 26, 2021)

Thanks for the advice, I think we'll probably end up having to raise the money for the non-lucrative visa and negotiate for our tenant to stay a bit longer whilst we figure stuff out, so we'll still do it, but potentially not in the original timeframe.

Many thanks again everyone


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## MataMata (Nov 30, 2008)

Remember that for the NLV for the subsequent 2nd and 3rd visas vou will need to acquire permanent residency you will have to show 2x the €34,000 odd you need for the first year, and BTW that really needs to be cash in the bank or be derived from relatively secure sources such as pensions etc. salaries do not cut it as jobs can be lost in the blink of an eye and rental income from a property is equally tenuous. 

I strongly doubt that Autonomo is going to be an answer for you, as I understand it for that you will need to present a business plan incorporating some sort of immediate or future benefit for Spain (beyond normal taxes etc.) which working remotely for a UK employer obviously will never provide.


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## mynameisdawes (Apr 26, 2021)

So we're saying that Spain really isn't letting anyone in unless they can convincingly look like they have €170,000 spare cash to cover the 5 years (as a couple) and are willing to appear idle for those 5 years, or it's the €500,000 to buy a property for the golden visa, or an amazing business plan.

Ufff, so no more young couples going over for a long time then, no one has that money unless they're rich, retirement age, or they've been left some by their relatives 

It's sad that we maybe could have moved to be included in the Withdrawal Agreement, but COVID really made that impossible and now we're stuck forever paying rent here and making mortgage payments on a potentially useless empty house in Spain that we can visit for 90 days here and there.

I hope the rules evolve a bit over time, we have so many friends and family in Spain, I grew up there like I said and went to school there when I was little, and we want to just go and live there and not come back, Brexit really has mucked everything up for everyone (you can probably tell I didn't vote for it)


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## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

mynameisdawes said:


> So we're saying that Spain really isn't letting anyone in unless they can convincingly look like they have €170,000 spare cash to cover the 5 years (as a couple) and are willing to appear idle for those 5 years, or it's the €500,000 to buy a property for the golden visa, or an amazing business plan.
> 
> Ufff, so no more young couples going over for a long time then, no one has that money unless they're rich, retirement age, or they've been left some by their relatives
> 
> ...


It's sad that neither of you naturalised.

Are you skilled? Could one of you find a job that could provide sponsorship?


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

The truth is it will be very hard for young Brits to locate to Spain now. Only quite independently wealthy will be able to afford NLV and you still cant work. Autonomo is not an option for a work Visa as you will need a fairly big plan. Only real way is a job offer and that means having a fairly in demand skill, in which case there are far more opportunities than Spain with more labour protection. So yes
...Brexit had its price and that is reduced work and lifestyle opportunities for young people. I really dont understand why so many people are against Scottish independence as this could be a way for many young people to get a backdoor entry into the EU again.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

ALKB said:


> It's sad that neither of you naturalised.
> 
> Are you skilled? Could one of you find a job that could provide sponsorship?


The OP and partner want to continue working for their UK employers so a "real" work visa is impossible unless the company(ies) have Spanish branches.


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## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

Overandout said:


> The OP and partner want to continue working for their UK employers so a "real" work visa is impossible unless the company(ies) have Spanish branches.


I agree that the scenario the OP wishes for is not going to happen.

I was just throwing this out in response to the 'we are stuck paying rent for ever and a mortgage for a useless home' - maybe a job in Spain for at least one of them now looks a bit more attractive? Subject to having transferable, needed skills.


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## mynameisdawes (Apr 26, 2021)

I'm a senior full-stack web developer (15 years in the making), so for me, even though my skills could be sought after, ditching the current high job security that's not wavered during the pandemic in favour of a Spanish unknown alternative, with all the upheaval that brings doesn't seem attractive...

Maybe my partner might be able to pursue the Spanish job offer route, and I can later join based on our relationship, or I'll have to set up as autonomo and be the Spanish representative office for the company I work for and in time take on a member of staff or two to make it seem like I'm not just employing myself.

In the meantime, we're just going to have to give it a few more years I fear to make a move, it feels like because it's month 4 of the first year of this disaster, COVID is still out there, and there seem to be very few example success stories to get some hope from. I'll try and post if we have any positive changes to offer some encouragement.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

mynameisdawes said:


> I'm a senior full-stack web developer (15 years in the making), so for me, even though my skills could be sought after, ditching the current high job security that's not wavered during the pandemic in favour of a Spanish unknown alternative, with all the upheaval that brings doesn't seem attractive...
> 
> Maybe my partner might be able to pursue the Spanish job offer route, and I can later join based on our relationship, or I'll have to set up as autonomo and be the Spanish representative office for the company I work for and in time take on a member of staff or two to make it seem like I'm not just employing myself.
> 
> In the meantime, we're just going to have to give it a few more years I fear to make a move, it feels like because it's month 4 of the first year of this disaster, COVID is still out there, and there seem to be very few example success stories to get some hope from. I'll try and post if we have any positive changes to offer some encouragement.


My personal opinion on this is: if you are young educated and have sought after skills you should pursue a path that will give you the greatest opportunity to develop those skills further. The happiest people I know are those who had jobs they liked, were given opportunities to further their skills, and were reasonably well paid. It has become a bit of a cliche to say that money isn't everything and a dangerous philosophy to subscribe to when you are young. The world has changed considerably since I was young. Manual low skilled jobs were plentiful, apprentices were available, housing was cheap. In short you could survive quite happily on the hippy ideal. Unfortunately that has gone. The world is hugely competitive on a global scale and those who fail to acquire knowledge and skills will suffer terribly. It is already evident in the UK and very much so in Spain. Technology is a huge market area but requires specialised skills which mean hard work and a determined mind set to learn. My time in Spain has shown me that many people swapped the challenges of learning and working for a belief that sunshine and cheap entertainment would suffice. Many seem to lead rather empty lives repeatedly boasting about the weather, the beach, the drink etc. Do yourself a favour. Spain will always be there for holidays. Keep yourself focused on improving yourself in a way that will allow you to enjoy the good things in life but with a modicum of balance


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

mynameisdawes said:


> I'm a senior full-stack web developer (15 years in the making), so for me, even though my skills could be sought after, ditching the current high job security that's not wavered during the pandemic in favour of a Spanish unknown alternative, with all the upheaval that brings doesn't seem attractive...
> 
> Maybe my partner might be able to pursue the Spanish job offer route, and I can later join based on our relationship, or I'll have to set up as autonomo and be the Spanish representative office for the company I work for and in time take on a member of staff or two to make it seem like I'm not just employing myself.
> 
> In the meantime, we're just going to have to give it a few more years I fear to make a move, it feels like because it's month 4 of the first year of this disaster, COVID is still out there, and there seem to be very few example success stories to get some hope from. I'll try and post if we have any positive changes to offer some encouragement.


As a full stack developer you wouldn't have any trouble finding permanent work in Madrid paying over €50k a year. I guess it would be similar in Barcelona. It's not as much as you'd earn in say London, but it goes a lot further. Of course if you work remotely as a freelancer then you wouldn't be restricted to the Spanish job market anyway. However there'd be plenty of demand for you. That said, I think you're right to hold off for the time being. There are other issues with becoming an autonomo that you'd need to think through as well (pensions come to mind). 

In the mean time, I guess another option could be to spend up to 3 months a year in the property in Barcelona, and maybe holiday let it during the summer?


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## Joey Testa (Jan 5, 2021)

If you grew uo in Valencia, are you not entitled to Spanish citizenship? Alternatively, isn´t there a residency option for people who can prove that they are integrated into Spanish society?

IT work in Spain pays much less than in UK and work is usually available only through agencies so I would not consider this option


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Where on earth did you hear that there is a residency option if you are integrated????


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## Joey Testa (Jan 5, 2021)

PORTAL DE INMIGRACIÓN. Autorizaciones de residencia por circunstancias excepcionales (inclusion.gob.es)


*Supuestos de arraigo.* _Extranjeros que se encuentran en España en situación irregular (sin una autorización de estancia o residencia)._
*Arraigo laboral.* _Si ha permanecido en España al menos dos años y puede acreditar una relación laboral de duración no inferior a seis meses._
*Arraigo social.* _Si ha permanecido en España al menos tres años, cuenta con un contrato de trabajo y acredite vínculos familiares con otros extranjeros residentes o presente un informe de inserción social._
*Arraigo familiar.* _Si es hijo de padre o madre originariamente españoles o bien sean padre o madre de un menor de nacionalidad española._


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

Joey Testa said:


> PORTAL DE INMIGRACIÓN. Autorizaciones de residencia por circunstancias excepcionales (inclusion.gob.es)
> 
> 
> *Supuestos de arraigo.* _Extranjeros que se encuentran en España en situación irregular (sin una autorización de estancia o residencia)._
> ...


This is exceptions for immigrants whose situation was essentially in origin illegal or without papers.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

It's an interesting point though. Technically a UK citizen (post Brexit) could be in an illegal situation in Spain and apply for residency under arraigo. Hardly a recommendable course of action though especially for the OP who needs to work.


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## Joey Testa (Jan 5, 2021)

kaipa said:


> This is exceptions for immigrants whose situation was essentially in origin illegal or without papers.


No it is not. Use your dictionary to look up "circunstancias excepcionales" - it means exceptional circumstances and if Brexit is not an Exceptional Circumstance than I don´t know what is.


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## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

Joey Testa said:


> No it is not. Use your dictionary to look up "circunstancias excepcionales" - it means exceptional circumstances and if Brexit is not an Exceptional Circumstance than I don´t know what is.


Is something that a whole nation had four years time to prepare for an exceptional circumstance?

Might be worth trying, though. Would there be adverse consequences if such an application were to be refused?


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Joey Testa said:


> No it is not. Use your dictionary to look up "circunstancias excepcionales" - it means exceptional circumstances and if Brexit is not an Exceptional Circumstance than I don´t know what is.


What was exceptional about at least two years notice ? Bit like Xmas you knew it was coming


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## Joey Testa (Jan 5, 2021)

Megsmum said:


> What was exceptional about at least two years notice ? Bit like Xmas you knew it was coming


You may be confusing the word "exceptional" with "unexpected". Brexit, while not unexpected, was nonetheless exceptional.


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## ALKB (Jan 20, 2012)

Joey Testa said:


> You may be confusing the word "exceptional" with "unexpected". Brexit, while not unexpected, was nonetheless exceptional.


I guess we'll have to wait until a British applicant tries to apply under this path to see whether the Spanish immigration authority interprets the existence of Brexit to be sufficiently exceptional to grant residence rights.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Joey Testa said:


> If you grew uo in Valencia, are you not entitled to Spanish citizenship? Alternatively, isn´t there a residency option for people who can prove that they are integrated into Spanish society?
> 
> IT work in Spain pays much less than in UK and work is usually available only through agencies so I would not consider this option


Arraigo? 

That's not a plan, it's a solution to an existing problem. 

Unlikely that someone coming to Spain in order to claim arraigo would succeed. 

Unfortunately ex residents who have left, are no longer resident. Those with 'permanent residency' can leave for no longer than 2 years without losing the right to residency. 

The only exception is Bristish citizens who are permanent resident benificiaries of the WA - (they can leave fior 5 years without losing residency rights).

If that right had already been lost, though, it can't be recovered.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

You can't claim arraigo unles you have already been here for three years, but in the case of a UK citizen who has never registered and is now without a visa, the process theoretically applies.

The question for me is if the "three year" rule would count from when the UK citizen can show that they started living in Spain without the correct papers, or three years from when they were no longer an EU citizen. Arraigo is not available to EU citizens.

Badly compared it is like my own case of citizenship application. The law says that after being married to a Spaniard for 1 year I could apply, but when I called the ministry of justice to clarify they were very clear that even though I had been married for many years to my wife and she had Spanish nationality, that wasn't enough because she hadn't been Spanish for one year...
So for UK citizens, maybe this isn't even worth considering until 2024, but for those that stay "under the radar" until then might benefit?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Overandout said:


> You can't claim arraigo unles you have already been here for three years, but in the case of a UK citizen who has never registered and is now without a visa, the process theoretically applies.
> 
> The question for me is if the "three year" rule would count from when the UK citizen can show that they started living in Spain without the correct papers, or three years from when they were no longer an EU citizen. Arraigo is not available to EU citizens.
> 
> ...


But a UK citizen who can prove that they were living here before the end of next year doesn't have to go the arraigo route.

There's (currently) no time limit for applying for a 'Brexit' TIE under EU income etc. requirements.

Arraigo is more complicated than that.


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

xabiaxica said:


> But a UK citizen who can prove that they were living here before the end of next year doesn't have to go the arraigo route.
> 
> There's (currently) no time limit for applying for a 'Brexit' TIE under EU income etc. requirements.
> 
> Arraigo is more complicated than that.


That is true, if they can prove they had the right health care and means etc. But of they were here "irregularly" this might be their only hope in the future.

Anyway we are way off-topic! This has ne relevance to the OP!

I wonder if residency by arraigo entitles you to free health care? 😉 🤷‍♂️


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## mynameisdawes (Apr 26, 2021)

So we have an update! It's been a couple of months waiting for a window of opportunity to travel with the pandemic, but finally my partner has managed to get back to his house in Barcelona.

The long and short of it is that his NIE was the green A4 type that they are still just about exchanging for TIEs with the right evidences (eg. empadronamiento, etc) and with a bit of a mild telling-off by the member of staff that dealt with him for how late he was to apply (to a process we didn't really know existed), he now has a TIE and is covered by the EU Withdrawal Agreement and doesn't need to jump through visa hoops anymore which is great news!

My question now is, do I need to still go down the non-lucrative visa route or can I join my partner in Spain based on our relationship of 5 years? We're not married and not in a civil partnership as yet although we want to be (again the pandemic has pushed a lot of this sort of thing back).

My understanding is that if we got married tomorrow and I applied using the marriage certficate as evidence, it's too late for me to be covered by the Withdrawal Agreement as it's now 2021, but is there a route where the consulate accepts us demonstrating evidence that our long term relationship started in 2016?

Many thanks for all the helpful advice


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

I think that you need to be married or civil partnership to take residence from your partner. The other thing is that on getting his TIE your partner has not been entirely honest as he must have said he has been living here continous since issud of green card. Of course now he has TIE the residency isnt an issue but the tax man will possibliy at some point query why tax hasnt been declared for the years that would show Spanish residency. Might be a good idea to check with a financial advisor to be on safe side


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## vianina (Feb 25, 2020)

Article 10(4) of the Withdrawal Agreement covers "partners in a durable relationship". I think you are covered as long as you can provide evidence. Obviously, since your partner has just obtained a TIE, you won't want that to be evidence that suggests he was actually living in the UK all along. Maybe evidence of holidays taken together etc.? You will need to read up on the subject.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

vianina said:


> Article 10(4) of the Withdrawal Agreement covers "partners in a durable relationship". I think you are covered as long as you can provide evidence. Obviously, since your partner has just obtained a TIE, you won't want that to be evidence that suggests he was actually living in the UK all along. Maybe evidence of holidays taken together etc.? You will need to read up on the subject.


He hasn't 'just' obtained the TIE.

He has exchanged his original EU residency papers for the TIE.


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## vianina (Feb 25, 2020)

xabiaxica said:


> He hasn't 'just' obtained the TIE.
> 
> He has exchanged his original EU residency papers for the TIE.
> 
> Yes. He has just exchanged his original EU residency papers. Thereby just, now, obtaining the TIE. Which is why he needs to be a bit careful about what proofs of relationship he shows. Why the snarky comment?


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

xabiaxica said:


> He hasn't 'just' obtained the TIE.
> 
> He has exchanged his original EU residency papers for the TIE.


I think what the poster means is that by getting a TIE under the WA he has rather fraudulently claimed to have been living in Spain up to this point which is not true. The couple have been cohabiting in UK and therefore trying to obtain the right to residency in Spain on the basis of other half's TIE would ( if it is even allowed in Spain) mean having to show where you were living for the last 5 years which would in turn reveal that it wasn't in Spain.


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## mynameisdawes (Apr 26, 2021)

I don't really know how fraudulent it is, we certainly didn't conceal the truth, at no point did anyone ask about how fragmented his living arrangements in the country were, he just had to have an up-to-date padrón which they renewed for him just after providing proof of ownership of the house, his taxes are all in order too (as per his advisor's advice on how to be transparent and consistent between both countries), so this isn't an attempt at fraud. I will add that we acted purely on professional advice sought from immigration lawyers which led to us realising he could make this paperwork exchange (as I said before, we didn't know the process existed).

Really, it's a diversion from the original question because he's legally acquired his paperwork, that's done and dusted, the question is really me trying to explore the avenues I potentially now have. As I say, if it still needs to be the non-lucrative route, then that's what it has to be, but if there was any advice as to anything else, that was the aim of the conversation going forwards.

Article 10(4) of the Withdrawal Agreement looks helpful as a place to start, thank you @vianina, I guess going back to the immigration lawyers wouldn't be a bad move either...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

kaipa said:


> I think what the poster means is that by getting a TIE under the WA he has rather fraudulently claimed to have been living in Spain up to this point which is not true. The couple have been cohabiting in UK and therefore trying to obtain the right to residency in Spain on the basis of other half's TIE would ( if it is even allowed in Spain) mean having to show where you were living for the last 5 years which would in turn reveal that it wasn't in Spain.


Indeed. 


I'm not sure that Spain asks for proof of living together or where. A formal, legal marriage or civil partnership is usually required.


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## vianina (Feb 25, 2020)

xabiaxica said:


> Indeed.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure that Spain asks for proof of living together or where. A formal, legal marriage or civil partnership is usually required.


Withdrawal Agreement Article 10(4):
"Without prejudice to any right to residence which the persons concerned may have in their own right, the host State shall, in accordance with its national legislation and in accordance with point (b) of Article 3(2) of Directive 2004/38/EC, facilitate entry and residence for the partner with whom the person referred to in points (a) to (d) of paragraph 1 of this Article has a durable relationship, duly attested, where that partner resided outside the host State before the end of the transition period, provided that the relationship was durable before the end of the transition period and continues at the time the partner seeks residence under this Part."


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

vianina said:


> Withdrawal Agreement Article 10(4):
> "Without prejudice to any right to residence which the persons concerned may have in their own right, the host State shall, in accordance with its national legislation and in accordance with point (b) of Article 3(2) of Directive 2004/38/EC, facilitate entry and residence for the partner with whom the person referred to in points (a) to (d) of paragraph 1 of this Article has a durable relationship, duly attested, where that partner resided outside the host State before the end of the transition period, provided that the relationship was durable before the end of the transition period and continues at the time the partner seeks residence under this Part."


I'll be very interested to hear of the first couple that achieves it without being married or in a formal partnership.


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## Joppa (Sep 7, 2009)

vianina said:


> Withdrawal Agreement Article 10(4):
> "Without prejudice to any right to residence which the persons concerned may have in their own right, the host State shall, in accordance with its national legislation and in accordance with point (b) of Article 3(2) of Directive 2004/38/EC, facilitate entry and residence for the partner with whom the person referred to in points (a) to (d) of paragraph 1 of this Article has a durable relationship, duly attested, where that partner resided outside the host State before the end of the transition period, provided that the relationship was durable before the end of the transition period and continues at the time the partner seeks residence under this Part."


Durable relationship in EU parlance does include informal relationship beside marriage and civil partnership. But the devil is in the details and you need to show you have had durable relationship for a minimum of 2 years and you have been in a relationship akin to marriage, attested by cohabitation (e.g. joint rental agreement or co-ownership of property) and financial co-responsibility such as joint utility bills, joint insurance etc. What it boils down to is whether you can convince a state official your relationship has been, and is, durable.


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## vianina (Feb 25, 2020)

xabiaxica said:


> I'll be very interested to hear of the first couple that achieves it without being married or in a formal partnership.


Arrangements have been place involving EU citizens in defacto relationships for years now.

ENTRANCE INTO SPAIN FOR UNMARRIED OR UNREGISTERED FOREIGN PARTNERS OF EU CITIZENS
The Spanish Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Cooperation, with the collaboration of the ministry of the Interior, has established a regulation for foreign partners of EU citizens who are not married or have not registered their status as a couple to facilitate their entry into Spain. Because of this regulation, foreign citizens who wish to visit or reside in Spain with their partners can go to a Spanish Consular Office in the country where they live and submit accrediting documentation proving they have a stable and lasting relationship, similar to that of a ‘pareja de hecho’. These accrediting documents will be sent to the Ministry of the Interior where an evaluation will be carried out. If the evaluation is positive and obtains approval, the Consular Office can issue a ‘Supporting Certificate’ that the applicant must take, together with all the supporting documentation presented at time of application, to show to the airline they are travelling with, and the National Police at the airport of arrival (Comisaría General de Extranjería y Fronteras), given that the final decision on whether they meet the requirements falls with the Immigration Authorities at Spanish Border Control.
The foreign citizen must bring the following documents to their appointment:
1. Original passport and a copy
2. Copy of their partner’s identity document
3. Proof that the foreign citizen will travel with the EU partner or join them once in Spain: plane tickets, declaration before a notary of the EU citizen, etc.
4. Proof of a stable, lasting relationship, during which there has been marital cohabitation.
a. Documents from legal authorities in which a lasting link between the couple can be verified.
b. Documents from Spanish authorities: accreditation of appointment to get married in Spain, registration on census, etc.
1F THE CHANCERY www.exteriores.gob.es/Consulados/Manchester/ 58 SPRING GARDENS
[email protected] M2 1EW MANCHESTER

c. Joint tenancy contract. Joint bank account, joint bills, invitations to attend family events together such as weddings, etc.
All documentation that is to be submitted to demonstrate the relationship, plane tickets, notarial declarations, documents from local authorities such as ‘proof of appointment to get married, registration of census, etc.’ must be apostilled or legalized.
Any other supporting document, which the applicant perceives to be relevant or necessary, can be added to this list (which is not exhaustive) and will be evaluated holistically, together with the other documents. Submitting only the presentation of a declaration before a notary stating the existence of a relationship will not be considered sufficient proof of a stable and lasting relationship (a declaration together with other documents may be approved), nor the submission of telephone, postal or electronic communications, if it is not unequivocally proved that the relationship is also based on the existence of cohabitation.
This marital cohabitation could be either:
1. At least one year of uninterrupted cohabitation,
2. periods of less than a year which add up to over a year of cohabitation or
3. a period of less than a year when extraordinary circumstances have interrupted the cohabitation (work transfer, war, illness or other force majeure circumstances).
This regulation is in place to help nationals of countries who are exempt from visas to travel to Spain. Nationals from countries who are obliged to travel to Spain with a visa must apply for an EU Citizen Family Visa, a process during which they can bring the documentation stated in the above requirements.
Once this documentation is received by the competent authorities in Spain, it will be analysed, evaluated and checked by the authority responsible for the processing of it. If the existence of a stable partnership in which a lasting link has been created is demonstrated, this Consular Office will issue a Supporting Certificate which will be sent by email to the applicant, and to the Ministry of the Interior at the Spanish Embassy. The Embassy will send a copy of the certificate to the correct border check point and will also be communicated to the travel company so that embarkation is permitted. If the evaluation of the document is negative, it will be communicated to the applicant via email.


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## kaipa (Aug 3, 2013)

mynameisdawes said:


> I don't really know how fraudulent it is, we certainly didn't conceal the truth, at no point did anyone ask about how fragmented his living arrangements in the country were, he just had to have an up-to-date padrón which they renewed for him just after providing proof of ownership of the house, his taxes are all in order too (as per his advisor's advice on how to be transparent and consistent between both countries), so this isn't an attempt at fraud. I will add that we acted purely on professional advice sought from immigration lawyers which led to us realising he could make this paperwork exchange (as I said before, we didn't know the process existed).
> 
> Really, it's a diversion from the original question because he's legally acquired his paperwork, that's done and dusted, the question is really me trying to explore the avenues I potentially now have. As I say, if it still needs to be the non-lucrative route, then that's what it has to be, but if there was any advice as to anything else, that was the aim of the conversation going forwards.
> 
> Article 10(4) of the Withdrawal Agreement looks helpful as a place to start, thank you @vianina, I guess going back to the immigration lawyers wouldn't be a bad move either...


Maybe I got it wrong but I thought you said that your partner HAD lived in Spain for 7 years and had a green card. That implies that he left Spain and took residency elsewhere. Now he has returned and exchanged his card for a TIE. If he was 7 years he automatically got permanent residence after 5 years. As long as he hasn't been absent from Spain for more than 2 years then he hasn't done anything wrong . Check on his TIE to see if it says TEMPORAL or PERMANENTE.


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## tardigrade (May 23, 2021)

Is there such a thing as a "common law" marriage in the EU; ie. without any formal government or church participation? 
I always thought of it as some form of old english law in commonwealth states but the isle abolished it along time ago - before July 4,1776.
I see that there are only 7 states plus D.C. that recognize it and the laws state - "a man and a women" in almost all of them.


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## vianina (Feb 25, 2020)

tardigrade said:


> Is there such a thing as a "common law" marriage in the EU; ie. without any formal government or church participation?
> I always thought of it as some form of old english law in commonwealth states but the isle abolished it along time ago - before July 4,1776.
> I see that there are only 7 states plus D.C. that recognize it and the laws state - "a man and a women" in almost all of them.


Yes, there totally is. It's called a de facto relationship or de facto partnership. It involves two adults. They can be a man and a woman, two men, or two women.


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