# Social charges for a British AE



## 1790260

This is a bit confusing for my limited brain. 

As someone who has been here before Brexit, now with a 10 year CDS/WARP card, and an auto-entrepreneur (which I _believe_ didn't affiliate you to the French health system in and off itself, that came via what was then the E106) how might I be effected? I'm assuming not at all, but if auto-entrepreneur is deemed as 'working' then there might be a few people in for a surprise with social charges on UK pension. I thought auto-entrepreneurs only built up French pension rights IF their earnings exceeded a certain value (which mine certainly don't!) 

I appreciate the possible (I say "possible" because I believe it's being challenged) non-availability of CSS for S1 holders, but to then also have to pay (increased) social charges on any pension receipts too would be, to use that old phrase, a 'double whammy'

I feel sure it can't be like that though, hence my confusion!


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## Bevdeforges

Moved you into a thread of your own because I don't think you meant to post this in the thread it wound up in. (Different topic.)

I'm not sure of the specific ramifications for Brits on the WARP cards, but technically speaking, you can continue to work in France even while drawing a pension - but the fact of drawing a pension does not relieve you of paying the social charges connected with your AE (based on your turnover). It should not affect what tax or "social charges" you pay (or not) on your pension. (Hey, nothing here is "simple.") The "social charges" paid on a foreign pension are only on the pension amounts and are not influenced by any French sourced income you declare.

First question I guess is: have you been reporting your revenues to URSSAF each quarter like you're supposed to be doing? That's where you pay any and all social charges that apply to your AE.


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## 1790260

Bevdeforges said:


> Moved you into a thread of your own because I don't think you meant to post this in the thread it wound up in. (Different topic.)


No probs, when I read back my post (when I posted it) I couldn't myself work out quite what had motivated me to post it! I was responding to something I'd read but, yes, my post did seem completely out of place.

Yes, all earnings are declared quarterly as they should be, and included in the annual tax return. I was under the impression that AE earnings themselves didn't build French pension rights (so long as they are below a certain amount, that exact figure I don't recall) If they do, and I end up not being able to get an S1 on UK state retirement age then I, and many like me, might well be in need of CSS (the irony being we might well be eligible for it!)

Edit: btw, I'm not yet in receipt of UK state (or indeed any) pension, you might want to edit the thread title.


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## Nomoss

You may find something *HERE* or *HERE* to answer your questions.

I can't make head or tail of how residence, autoentrepreneur status, _contributions sociaux, prélèvements sociaux_, CSS, and BREXIT interact to affect your situation.
I thought that contributions paid as an AE include those for health care, thus making one affiliated to the French system, and that the old E106 was for those entitled to UK benefits to be covered for health care during the process of becoming resident in France rather than on a permanent basis.
You can check who you are affiliated to by checking the _*Code gestion*_ on your _attestation_, which indicates the affiliation.
If you are directly affiliated to a French entity and do not have a large income from investments etc. you may be better off not registering an S1 with your CPAM and leaving things as they are.

I and my wife have pensions from UK and Spain, were already retired when we became resident here in 2003, with E121's from UK.
Our pensions are taxable but are (just) below the threshold so are not taxed. There are no _prélèvements sociaux_ levied on them, presumably for the same reason.
We have always paid _prélèvements sociaux_ on our investment income, as there is no threshold for this, but they were reduced to 7.5%, I think around 2016, after it was decided that S1 holders are not affiliated to the system, so are not liable to charges related to social security.
Recently our claim for renewal of our CSS was refused because we are S1 holders.
So the small reduction in charges on our income is far more than offset by the loss of our subsidised _mutuelle_, as our new cover costs us €160 instead of €60 per month.


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## EuroTrash

I do not really understand your point but part of it seems to be that you are speculating on whether or not you have any French pension entitlement.Why not create an account on the French pensions website and check your entitlement? Presumably you have not done this yet or you would not still be wondering. But the information becomes available well in advance of you reaching pension age so there should be no need for anybody to have to speculate or get a last minute surprise.


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## 1790260

EuroTrash said:


> I do not really understand your point but part of it seems to be that you are speculating on whether or not you have any French pension entitlement.


It's more me thinking about the system in general than my own situation specifically (though obviously my own circumstances are an example). It was a chance remark in another thread that made me ponder things like AE status, French pension rights, S1, social tax rates, CSS, etc.

I know I could look up IF I have been contributing to a French position, my point was really that I'd always _assumed_ that I wasn't. I have a feeling there's an earnings threshold that determines it, or an opt-out... something, but I am going to have a read and clarify that, out of interest. Maybe it's somewhere in the links @Nomoss gave above.

Why it all matters? Well, as mentioned by Nomass...



Nomoss said:


> We have always paid _prélèvements sociaux_ on our investment income, as there is no threshold for this, but they were reduced to 7.5%, I think around 2016, after it was decided that S1 holders are not affiliated to the system, so are not liable to charges related to social security.
> Recently our claim for renewal of our CSS was refused because we are S1 holders.
> So the small reduction in charges on our income is far more than offset by the loss of our subsidised _mutuelle_,


IF I am acquiring French pension (knowingly or otherwise) then I am presumably ineligible for an S1. Now my understanding may well be incorrect here but if my reading is correct then, without an S1, I will pay social charges on our UK state pensions at a higher rate (17.5% v 7.5%) On the plus side, I would be entitled to apply for CSS. 

If however I am NOT acquiring French pension rights (through AE cotisations) then I will have a choice as to whether to submit an S1 to Ameli. Then there is a trade-off/decision to make; S1 with reduced rate social charges but no CSS, OR no S1, higher social charges but CSS entitlement.

Knowing these pathways in advance makes for informed choice.


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## 1790260

The following links are useful, there is indeed a turnover thresholds for an AE to starting building a French pension...



https://www.startbusinessinfrance.com/blog/post/pension-rights-for-auto-entrepreneurs-in-france





> As an auto-entrepreneur you need to meet specific turnover thresholds in order to validate 1, 2, 3 or 4 quarters of pension. To get a full pension, you need to validate 160 to 166 quarters.
> 
> *Manual Services* (activités de prestations de services):
> 
> 1 quarter turnover > = 3,812 euros
> 2 quarters turnover > = 7,624 euros
> 3 quarters > = 11,436 euros
> 4 quarters > = 15,248 euros











French Pension Rights of Auto-Entrepreneurs 2014 | French-Property.com


The minimum turnover required for auto-entrepreneurs to obtain pension rights has been revised downwards for 2014 onwards.




www.french-property.com







> Whilst the prospect of obtaining a French pension may be of interest to some, for many expats, obtaining a French retirement pension could actually mean you lose your S1 health cover in retirement and pay more in taxes than you receive in pension income!


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## Nomoss

appunti said:


> ......................... IF I am acquiring French pension (knowingly or otherwise) then I am presumably ineligible for an S1. Now my understanding may well be incorrect here but if my reading is correct then, without an S1, I will pay social charges on our UK state pensions at a higher rate (17.5% v 7.5%) On the plus side, I would be entitled to apply for CSS.
> 
> If however I am NOT acquiring French pension rights (through AE cotisations) then I will have a choice as to whether to submit an S1 to Ameli. Then there is a trade-off/decision to make; S1 with reduced rate social charges but no CSS, OR no S1, higher social charges but CSS entitlement. ....................................


I think the UK will issue you with an S1 whether or not you have a French pension, possibly on demand, but you don't have to submit it to your CPAM.

Being affiliated to _l'Assurance Maladie_ is what decides your status for _prélèvements sociaux_ and CSS, not the fact of having a French pension.

Having a French pension probably infers being affiliated, but not vice versa.

Also I think the health cover you have through your AE will probably continue, with charges made on whatever income you have after you retire.

You are fortunate to be in a position to choose. When we became resident the only way for us to get French health cover was via the E121, as PUMA did not exist then.

It was a difficult decision to give up our Spanish private health insurance, which gave full cover and was cheaper then a mutuelle, but depended on residence there. Finances, when we compared our predicted expenditures in each country, helped make our decision.


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## 1790260

Nomoss said:


> Being affiliated to _l'Assaurance Maladie_ is what decides your status for _prélèvements sociaux_ and CSS, not the fact of having a French pension.


Yes, I get that. I think I'm correct in saying, and I think you said somewhere, if you register the S1 with CPAM/Ameli that will the reduce the social charges but also exclude you from CSS - a swings and roundabouts decision that will vary according to individual circumstances. 



Nomoss said:


> When we became resident the only way for us to get French health cover was via the E121, as PUMA did not exist then


Same here, in 2007. There was a bit of hassle generally at that time as I recall (some CPAM offices were refusing UK citizens affiliation) but we had no real problem. Pitched up with our E106s and job done. Remarkably straightforward. We didn't had to show earnings or resources or the like. To this day, I think it was all too easy!


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## Nomoss

Nomoss said:


> When we became resident the only way for us to get French health cover was via the E121, as PUMA did not exist then.





appunti said:


> Yes, I get that. I think I'm correct in saying, and I think you said somewhere, if you register the S1 with CPAM/Ameli that will the reduce the social charges but also exclude you from CSS - a swings and roundabouts decision that will vary according to individual circumstances.





Nomoss said:


> When we became resident the only way for us to get French health cover was via the E121, as PUMA did not exist then.


Same here, in 2007. There was a bit of hassle generally at that time as I recall (some CPAM offices were refusing UK citizens affiliation) but we had no real problem. Pitched up with our E106s and job done. Remarkably straightforward. We didn't had to show earnings or resources or the like. To this day, I think it was all too easy!
[/QUOTE]

Are you sure you had E106's? As I said above, and gave a link deciphering the names of EU forms available, these are/were different from E121's.

Wish I had the contract for producing EU forms!


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## Nomoss

Appunti. Sorry, I'm sure you know what form you gave to your CPAM. I was just wondering how you could still be covered by an E106 after 15 years when I thought it gave only temporary cover, and you haven't said what is shown as your _Code gestion_ on your _Attestation de droits._

Maybe I am wrong about the E106, or perhaps when you began paying _cotisations_ as an AE you automatically became affiliated.


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## 1790260

The E106 gave us something like 18 months to 2 year's cover as I recall, I don't remember exactly. Then we just morphed into CPAM proper; no meetings, no documentation - seamless. The AE earnings didn't start until maybe 2011. We've just been living in a 'regular and stable' manner I guess. As I say, I don't really get how easy it's been.


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## *Sunshine*

appunti said:


> If however I am NOT acquiring French pension rights (through AE cotisations) then I will have a choice as to whether to submit an S1 to Ameli. Then there is a trade-off/decision to make; S1 with reduced rate social charges but no CSS, OR no S1, higher social charges but CSS entitlement.


I think you've misunderstood the circumstances under which you'd be entitled to use an S1.


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## 1790260

*Sunshine* said:


> I think you've misunderstood the circumstances under which you'd be entitled to use an S1.


Do please elaborate.


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## *Sunshine*

You don't get to (directly) choose under which country's system your health care will be covered, but rather the country will be determined based on your circumstances at the time of your retirement (which you can determine).

If I correctly understand your situation, you are a British citizen who moved to France as a self-employed posted worker before Brexit. For the initial 24 months your health care was covered by the UK then automatically transitioned to the French system. You now live in France as self-employed under the WA. Given these circumstances, if you retire while living in France you'll be governed by the French laws on health care for pensioners and not be eligible to use an S1 in France.


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## 1790260

I was not a "posted" worker, no. I had no work when I came here and lived on savings. AE started 4 years after arriving to earn a few extra euros. The earnings from that are well under the thresholds I posted above.

My understanding (perhaps an assumption as it's only based on what I've read on expat forums etc) is that I am entitled to an S1 on UK retirement age. Indeed, the S1 may even be issued automatically by the UK without me needing to apply.

What one does with that S1 seems to be a decision one can make; register it with Ameli and have health care costs (partially) met by the UK, reduced social charges on your UK pension and not be eligible for CSS, OR not register it and have France cover the costs, you'd be eligible for CSS and pay higher social charges on your UK pension. That would make prima facie sense to me as to how the system _could_ work.

It's that that I now want to get clarification on, at this stage out of self interest. I have some 6 years before UK retirement age so plenty of time, and a lot can change! (Even UK retirement age!! )


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## *Sunshine*

appunti said:


> My understanding (perhaps an assumption as it's only based on what I've read on expat forums etc) is that I am entitled to an S1 on UK retirement age. Indeed, the S1 may even be issued automatically by the UK without me needing to apply.


Your assumptions are not correct.

Instead of relying on second hand info from others who are neither in the exact same situation as you nor seem to have read the treaties, I would recommend reading the actual treaty governing social security benefits. 






EUR-Lex - 02004R0883-20140101 - EN - EUR-Lex







eur-lex.europa.eu


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## EuroTrash

*Sunshine* said:


> You don't get to (directly) choose under which country's system your health care will be covered, but rather the country will be determined based on your circumstances at the time of your retirement (which you can determine).


This ^^^
The EU "social security co-ordination agreement" (of which I believe the UK remains a party in certain aspects at least) has been designed to a) ensure that everybody exercising their freedom of movement has access to healthcare and there are no gaps for anybody to fall down and b) ensure that the burden of funding healthcare is spread as fairly as possible between states. It's designed so that there is one correct route for each specific set of circumstances. It is not designed to allow individuals to pick and choose what's best for them, it's about having a system that works for everybody, so that everybody gets looked after on the one hand and on the other hand you don't get a situation where one state is picking up all the bills and struggling to keep its health system afloat while another state has pocketed all the contributions.

ButI see that @*Sunshine* has sorted this out and posted the link so I can stop writing my post.


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## Nomoss

Thank you for the link to the treaty, Sunshine.

I just hope the French foncs making the decisions on implementation have read and understand it.

When I have time to grind through it maybe I will find out why our S1's were issued, in 2003, by the UK, when we had not lived and worked there since 1962. The last country where we lived and worked, for 20 years, was Spain, which was also where we made the most payments.

ET. That doesn't seem as if the mantra of "the burden of funding healthcare is spread as fairly as possible between states" was followed either.


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## 1790260

A brief aside: forums etc (by etc, I include English language websites that provide info on matters pertaining to living in France) are excellent sources of information (albeit sometimes questionable but, I would add, just as questionable as some of the advice you receive from official channels! Or, even _fonctionnaires_ can be wrong!!) Such sites are invaluable to the English speaking community who would otherwise struggle, either with legalise or French or both. They are indebted to people that can get to grips with it all and post clear, helpful and non-judgemental advice. I, for one, would not be without such places and am hugely thankful to such people. Aside over.

From my brief reading of the situation of someone in my position, I may well be entitled to an S1 come retirement age. It is dependant, yes, but I will be in receipt of a UK state pension (which in itself gives rise to eligibility) and the bulk of my social contributions have, and will be at that time, paid in the UK.

From Health, pensions and social security under the Withdrawal Agreement



> If you’re living in France before the end of the transition period but you haven’t reached state pension age at that point, you may be entitled to receive an S1 form when you qualify for your UK state pension. This would apply if you haven’t worked in France OR you haven’t worked long enough in your host country to qualify for a retirement pension here - in these situations the UK will become responsible for funding your health care.


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## *Sunshine*

Nomoss said:


> When I have time to grind through it maybe I will find out why our S1's were issued, in 2003, by the UK, when we had not lived and worked there since 1962. The last country where we lived and worked, for 20 years, was Spain, which was also where we made the most payments.


The treaty to which I linked came into effect in 2004 (and has since been amended a few times). I have no ideas how these matters were regulated before 2004.

Furthermore, the UK seems to not properly enforce its own rules regarding residency eligibility criteria of its nationals and many British citizens see NHS coverage as a life long right granted with citizenship. However, even if the UK incorrectly issues an S1, other Member States might not necessarily accept it.


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## 1790260

Nomoss said:


> The last country where we lived and worked, for 20 years, was Spain, which was also where we made the most payments


Given what I just posted above, that is seemingly, um, I don't know which word to use? Odd perhaps?? On the face of it, It would seem Spain should have issued the S1 and picked up your health care costs. Maybe they don't read the treaty either! Is it any wonder that questions arise!


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## EuroTrash

Nomoss said:


> ET. That doesn't seem as if the mantra of "the burden of funding healthcare is spread as fairly as possible between states" was followed either.


No, agreed, it can work out oddly.
I suppose the point is that as long as the treaty correctly applied, it could also work out oddly in the opposite direction when circumstances are reversed so it would balance itself out.
But it does seem that the UK doesn't always check that a person is entitled to whatever form it is they're asking for. and if the person for an S1 the UK issues an S1, if the person asks for a refusal letter the UK issues a refusal letter.


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## EuroTrash

Can't seem to edit my post but it could be that they don't like having three countries involved. UK citizen living in France with healthcare covered by Spain, might be one too many? But like you I have no great desire to plough through the entire treaty, I'm content to identify my own situation and follow the rules for that.


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## Bevdeforges

Whew! I had tried to respond here, but lacking any real understanding of the WA I decided to let others handle this one. The main thing to understand is that the situation for Brits living in France has changed numerous times in the last 10 years, especially with the finalization of Brexit in 2021. 

What I can validate is that you are considered to have "retired" from whatever country you were living and working in last - i.e. at the moment you quit working and applied for your pensions. And honestly, not all EU countries deal with the health care side of things like the UK does/used to. The UK is the only country I know of where S1s (or whatever number the document has now) are issued routinely when someone retires "overseas."

If you are paying your quarterly "cotisations" as part of your AE then you are paying into the system - for all the related benefits. While you may not reach whatever "thresholds" you are looking at, they are still taking your money and so you are enrolled in the system. When you close up shop with your AE, you should contact the CNAV to register your "retirement" but there is a chance that you may not have enough credits (of time or salary level) to draw a partial pension from the French system. (Note, at present they do count time worked elsewhere). 

If they need an S1 from you when you start drawing your UK pension, they will ask you for it. But as a TCN (third country national) you need to go with the flow here. 

Just saw ET's latest post. I get my pensions from 3 different countries, and it has never caused any problem other than having to fill out the paperwork three times. (From my experience, when you claim your pension from CNAV, they confirm your entire work history and notify the other public pension systems, who then contact you with the relevant paperwork requests.)


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## 1790260

EuroTrash said:


> I'm content to identify my own situation and follow the rules for that.


Ditto, and I suspect a great many do the same.

Whilst I do like to understand generally how a system hangs together, I don't delve into the nitty-gritty of it.

I'm sure all nations' civils servants (UK, Spain, France, etc) do get it wrong sometimes, and sometimes leave people in limbo and hardship even, and it's on such occasions that legal eagles may reach for the treaty. I guess I'm thankful that most of the time 'it just works'


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## *Sunshine*

appunti said:


> Whilst I do like to understand generally how a system hangs together, I don't delve into the nitty-gritty of it.


If you want to plan for the future, I don't think you have a choice. Your understanding of the system is based on incorrect assumptions. As far a treaties go, this treaty is not that difficult to understand if you read through it methodically. I would recommend printing it out (at least the first section).


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## 1790260

@Bevdeforges thank you for taking the time to look into this, thinking about it and posting such a helpful response

I suspect, come the time, I shall not have made sufficient contributions to have built up a French pension entitlement. I will take your advice though and think to initiate the process from the French side (CNAV or whoever it might be in the future)

Fascinating stuff this. Seriously, I'm enjoying finding stuff out. Thanks to all for your contributions.


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## 1790260

Fret not sunshine, when I become aware of my assumptions (and I have the kind of mind to be alive to such things) then I am totally prepared to question them and learn.

My initial awareness that I wanted to find out more came from a chance remark in another thread and I wanted to follow up on the implications. As I said above, I've enjoyed the little journey. That it won't actually be determined for real for another 6 years is by-the-by - but it does mean I'll have to stay alert to changes, of which I am sure there will be!


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## Bevdeforges

appunti said:


> I suspect, come the time, I shall not have made sufficient contributions to have built up a French pension entitlement.


Although, if they do count the "work time" you have put in - in all the various countries you have worked in - you may be entitled to at least a "token pension" of some variety. I only contributed to the system in Germany for 2 1/2 years - but I get my pension (small, but more than enough for a "night out") each month. One thing about France is that you learn to just see what develops.


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## 1790260

Bevdeforges said:


> Although, if they do count the "work time" you have put in


Oh believe me, that really is as little as possible!


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## Nomoss

*Sunshine* said:


> Instead of relying on second hand info from others who are neither in the exact same situation as you nor seem to have read the treaties, I would recommend reading the actual treaty governing social security benefits.


I see you are a Canadian living in Germany, so perhaps used to the efficient, knowledgeable, and competent people that Germany is renowned for, and not the less formal attitude of bureaucrats in other EU countries, so you may not understand why so many people seek advice from social media on official matters.

Having lived and worked in four EU countries, and visited a few others, I could talk all day about bureaucratic incompetency and mistakes. Fortunately, having lived and worked in Middle Eastern, far Eastern, and N African countries, I find most European countries quite efficient in comparison, but still frustrating at times.

Some French departments are at a standstill, often due to badly thought out and implemented reorganisation. These include the vehicle registration system and the immigration systems, to name only two.
I have argued at length with French bureaucrats and notaires, usually making my point. After doing so, the usual comment is that I didn't show them a particular piece of paper, but one has to allow them some face-saving.

In Spain we had a few confrontations with incompetents, but after a short time we paid a _gestor_ monthly to do all the paperwork for ourselves and our business, even the most simple stuff. She was worth her weight in gold. I wish they had _gestors_ in France.

In Greece my employer was a very wealthy man who simply didn't bother with bureaucratic stuff involving his import-export business. He had "people" who sorted everything out for him. I didn't ask how. When my wife had hassle with the airport customs over equipment she brought for his yacht he was annoyed that we hadn't contacted him..

Recently a person, maybe on this forum, appealed for someone to receive car parts for their business from UK into France, and ship them on to Portugal. This so that they would be cleared by customs into the EU in France rather than in Portugal. This was because he found that the Portuguese did not follow the EU rules. The head of customs told him "We make the rules here, not the EU"



*Sunshine* said:


> The treaty to which I linked came into effect in 2004 (and has since been amended a few times). I have no ideas how these matters were regulated before 2004.
> 
> Furthermore, the UK seems to not properly enforce its own rules regarding residency eligibility criteria of its nationals and many British citizens see NHS coverage as a life long right granted with citizenship. However, even if the UK incorrectly issues an S1, other Member States might not necessarily accept it.


Thank you for pointing that out. However, although I had retired when we moved here, I did not qualify for my State pensions until 2008, so the treaty is relevant for me.
I didn't ask why UK was issuing the S1's, as it didn't seem important at the time, and a couple of earlier queries re my wife's UK pension had resulted in its being recalculated and reduced. Maybe someone more knowledgeable deals with queries.

Although I haven't lived in UK since 1962, my dealings with a few government departments there didn't inspire confidence.

I even worked in Canada for some time, and my memories there are not great. Once, when I arrived in St Johns N.L. on a Saturday afternoon the senior customs officer had gone fishing. The man on duty didn't know what to do about my entering to join a foreign vessel, and couldn't contact his senior. I had the mandatory letter required, and there were many people doing the same thing, but he wanted to put me in jail until Monday.

Our offices were closed, and I didn't then have anyone's home number. I told him I wasn't about to go to jail, but would take the flight out with my return ticket. I said I was working for the government, and he could explain where I was 
on Monday. He decided to let me in when I gave him details of my hotel booking.


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## 1790260

Nomoss said:


> Some French departments are at a standstill, often due to badly thought out and implemented reorganisation. These include the vehicle registration system and the immigration systems, to name only two.


Added to that, you'll read of different departments doing things differently. And official advice that you'll need this form or that form, only for it not to be requested. On the times I've gone into the prefecture here (all of 3 times in 15 years I think), I've gone with every imaginable bit of documentation just in case they ask for something I wasn't aware of! 

I've even read advice along the lines of 'go into the prefecture/(wherever) on a Tuesday when Mdm X is working because she knows her stuff, but avoid Wednesday afternoon because M. Y is useless' You've got to smile and go with it.

My own experiences have always been good (touch wood) and I've been able to navigate my way around - but I figure it's more by luck than design, more my 'belt and braces' approach.


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## *Sunshine*

Nomoss said:


> I see you are a Canadian living in Germany, so perhaps used to the efficient, knowledgeable, and competent people that Germany is renowned for, and not the less formal attitude of bureaucrats in other EU countries, so you may not understand why so many people seek advice from social media on official matters.


You shouldn't believe the propaganda. Unfortunately not all bureaucrats in Germany are competent and many German politicians are more interested in ideology than actual policy to encourage improvement.

I was forced to learn how to read the laws for myself after being given inaccurate advice from people who claimed to know what they were talking about, but in truth were completely ignorant. I'm frequently appalled at some of the blatantly false information provided on this site that has the potential to be very costly to anyone who blindly follows it.

Before I file any official application or go to a government office I first make sure to research the issue, determine potential obstacles, and print out any laws and regulations that can help me to argue for the outcome that I want. In my experience the best argument to make to any bureaucrat is "but it says here..." and then show them the law, rule, or regulation that supports whatever point you want to make. My last case officer at the Foreigners Office was an idiot and hated me because I used to argue with her about points of law and then read her excerpts. The last time I was there she had to go consult her boss twice before giving me exactly what I wanted.

It also makes a huge difference if you file an application based on national laws or EU Directives. Although bureaucrats have latitude with local laws, EU Directives apply across the Union and it is possible to force Member States to comply, which is why it is so important to understand your rights and responsibilities under EU Directives.


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## Nomoss

I don't think many people on here are so naïve as to "blindly follow" advice provided by other members. I'm sure they weigh up, compare, and question what they are told. If their French is not adequate to understand the laws they don't have many alternatives to asking someone who has had similar experiences.

I'm pleased to know that you have found that bureaucrats make mistakes even in Germany 

I also try to find as much information as i can before contesting a decision, but it's not always possible, or even effective.

I have had problems which were due to a simple lack of common sense or actual obstruction. There are no EU directives covering this. One can only appeal to a superior. Recently I had to make an appeal to get something corrected.

I once printed out a fairly new directive from the government web site which a notaire didn't know about, only to be told I shouldn't believe things on the Internet. It involved my not paying a lot of tax on a house sale, and I went to 3 other notaires before I found one who knew about it.


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