# Advice needed



## Alfredo Garcia (Apr 8, 2009)

Hello All,

The post that I am about to type was posted on Chapala Web board, this morning. But for some bizzar reason, it was removed without any explanation!!

So here I go;

The FRACC in the area where I live is asking the homeowners to vote on making the Association into a "AC" entity (Association Civil). It is currently an "AV" (Association Vecinal). their argument is, the AV setup has no power to enforce any rules on the homeowners, and therefore an AC is needed incase they need to take legal action against any of the members.

To make things murkier, they have a clause in the bylaws that allows homeowners to be a NONMEMBER. However, there is a catch! If you opt to be a nonmember, you must pay 30% above the regular dues!!.

Now, I have been a nonmember for over one year, *AND YES I PAY DUES *every quarter (I am not a deadbeat. My question is what would be the advantage in being a nonmember. I am told, even If refuse to use the Association's water, (I have a cistern in my house), I would still be charged for the water!

Has ANYONE on this forum opted to be a Nonmember? Does anyone here have any experience on "AV" or "AC".

Thanks in advance for your FACTUAL response
!


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

Your post indicates that you are asking for legal advice on an open forum and that the responses may be worth exactly what you pay for them......zero.
That said, the question that pops to mind is, "Why did you purchase a home in an association where you do not wish to be a member?" and, "What is your objection to being a member?"


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## Alfredo Garcia (Apr 8, 2009)

RVGRINGO said:


> Your post indicates that you are asking for legal advice on an open forum and that the responses may be worth exactly what you pay for them......zero.
> That said, the question that pops to mind is, "Why did you purchase a home in an association where you do not wish to be a member?" and, "What is your objection to being a member?"


Your point is well taken, however I have spoken with two lawyers who indicate opposite views on the subject! I am always interested in personal experiences, that is why I posted here.
I purchased the house knowing about the FRACC. But after being a member for a year, I realized they behave in an awful manner. The Mexicans in the town where I lived all knew the board members and had a disdain for all of them! 
Ironically, by surfing the Chapala Web forum, I came across a post that mentioned opting for “Nonmember status”!! So there again I learned something that I did not even know it existed.
This did not mean you don’t pay dues, it only means you do not follow every asinine rule they order you to follow. An example of this type of rule is charging a nonmember extra money for water, even if he does not use it!!
Anyway, it is not big deal to me, if this post in anyway causing you a problem, you are welcomed to remove it.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

Your post is not a problem. I simply have no knowledge of the situation or the legalities, nor am I surprised to find that you have received two opposing responses when you sought legal advice. I have read of instances where water has been restricted, etc., for those who refused to pay dues, but that seems not to apply in your case.
If you don't wish to comply with the "rules", is this common with other members or are there some specifics we should know? Is moving an option?
I've never lived in any type of condominium or association, here or elsewhere, and probably never will. It seems that they are often 'troublesome'.


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## Alfredo Garcia (Apr 8, 2009)

I am thinking about moving, but I would like to learn more about what FRACC's can and what they can not do. At my FRACC there are other folks that are Nonmembers, and like me they still pay dues. And then, there are others (Mexicans) that have NEVER payed a dime (which I think it is horrible) for many many years. 

So here then there are three different groups; Members who pay dues, Nonmembers who pay dues and folks who use the water and all the ameneties and pay NOTHING! You have to admit, it is interesting/funny to say the least.

My feelings towards FRACCs in general are the same as yours.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

You have just described the situation completely and you understand why I prefer living in a perfectly 'normal' neighborhood. We did so in Ajijic from 2001 to 2004 and we do so now in Chapala. It appears that there are many 'troublesome' situations in these various 'associations' and none of them would appear to improve relations between neighbors. The bickering only serves to fill the pockets of the lawyers and waste money on both sides. Life is too short for such foolishness, I think.
Buena suerte.


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## HolyMole (Jan 3, 2009)

Alfredo Garcia said:


> I am thinking about moving, but I would like to learn more about what FRACC's can and what they can not do. At my FRACC there are other folks that are Nonmembers, and like me they still pay dues. And then, there are others (Mexicans) that have NEVER payed a dime (which I think it is horrible) for many many years.
> 
> So here then there are three different groups; Members who pay dues, Nonmembers who pay dues and folks who use the water and all the ameneties and pay NOTHING! You have to admit, it is interesting/funny to say the least.
> 
> My feelings towards FRACCs in general are the same as yours.


It would have helped to explain what FRACC means, but from the rest of the thread, it's obviously an association of homeowners similar to those in a condominium, or possibly what is called a "bare land strata" in British Columbia....a development of single family homes sharing some common elements like a swimming pool, park, etc. where certain services like landscaping, ground maintenance, etc. are provided communally.
The problems of your FRACC confirm some of the stories I've heard cautioning against purchasing a unit in a condo in Mexico, although there are obviously tens of thousands of folks happily living there in these kinds of development.
Since you have owners refusing to pay their monthly fees....the typical problem I've read about...., it sounds entirely reasonable to want to amend the legal make-up of the FRACC to enable it to take action against these deadbeats. The fact they apparently get away with this theft, (for that's what it is), is prroof that under the current legal set-up, the FRACC is powerless.
I have lived in three different Canadian condominiums at both ends of the country for over 25 years, and served on the council in each of them. In each of those condos there are folks who go blindly into purchasing a unit without any idea what they are agreeing to with respect to rules and regulations governing what they can and cannot do. Subsequent problems are invariably the fault of these reckless people, not the fault of the concept of shared ownership of common elements. With very few exceptions, rules and regulations, if they have been formulated by the owners themselves, are reasonable. There are always some folks, however, who feel they're above the crowd. They're always happier living somewhere else.
The apparent ability, in your FRACC, to opt-out of following the rules is mind-boggling. 
Usually, the remedy for those who don't like the rules and regulations is either to move, or to seek a seat on council for some input into running the place. 
Kind of like living in a democracy, I think.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

Sorry. FRACC is an acronym for "fraccionamiento", which is 'subdivision' in Spanish. The problems stem from the fact that, under Mexican law, you cannot be forced to join in the membership of any type of association, even though you own property there. However, some of them control the water source under a government permit and can go so far as to restrict your use of water to a public faucet, often far from your house. You can't be denied water, but it doesn't have to be provided to your house; just somewhere inside the association limits and maybe only at a trickle.


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## Alfredo Garcia (Apr 8, 2009)

My question regarding advice pertained to what is and is not legal in Mexico. IMHO, Fracc/Associations are an American (or should I say a NONmexican) related creation. What I seek to find out is how “binding” are they in Mexico. Some legal advice point to FRACC rules being Powerless, while others indicate otherwise. I have yet to see (or hear ANYONE) being prosecuted for not paying dues.
To give you a different perspective,,,,, I was born in a country that owing money to any entity (for ANY AMOUNT) will land you in jail the moment you refuse to pay! In USA where I now live, you declare bankruptcy and wiggle out of your entire obligation. Check out the foreclosures in my area and you will see how easy it has become.
My main questions are differences between AV and AC (If any) and the rights of a Nonmember (if any!)

To be honest, the reason I have not moved yet has to do with how "UN-Mexican" FRACC is,,,again,,,IMHO


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## HolyMole (Jan 3, 2009)

Alfredo Garcia said:


> My question regarding advice pertained to what is and is not legal in Mexico. IMHO, Fracc/Associations are an American (or should I say a NONmexican) related creation. What I seek to find out is how “binding” are they in Mexico. Some legal advice point to FRACC rules being Powerless, while others indicate otherwise. I have yet to see (or hear ANYONE) being prosecuted for not paying dues.
> To give you a different perspective,,,,, I was born in a country that owing money to any entity (for ANY AMOUNT) will land you in jail the moment you refuse to pay! In USA where I now live, you declare bankruptcy and wiggle out of your entire obligation. Check out the foreclosures in my area and you will see how easy it has become.
> My main questions are differences between AV and AC (If any) and the rights of a Nonmember (if any!)
> 
> To be honest, the reason I have not moved yet has to do with how "UN-Mexican" FRACC is,,,again,,,IMHO


I think I can appreciate your situation.
From a strictly selfish perspective, I'm interested in learning of these kinds of problems in Mexico so I can avoid them. It sounds like anyone buying into a Mexican condo arrangement better have their eyes wide open and be aware that "this ain't Kansas"......particularly for gringos purchasing units in buildings or developments where a majority of owners are non-resident or snowbirds. 
In a Canadian condominium the association would simply take the deadbeat owner to Small Claims Court, and get a judgment against them, up to possible seizure of the unit. It happens very rarely......never in the 17 years we've lived in our 73 unit complex.


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