# Mexico as a Good Option



## TigerFox (Aug 16, 2013)

Greetings all! We are a retired couple currently living in Texas. We have been actively researching locations for quite some time. We are pretty close to packed. We are quite interested in Mexico as it seems to meet much of our criteria. We do not speak Spanish, however, we are studying. We do have the expectation that it is our responsibility to learn the country's language. One of us does speak a second language already.

We have the Expat Guide to Mexico (from Mexico on My Mind) to help us narrow down locations, which is no easy task. It is a much bigger country that we thought and it appears there are many choices. We are ready to plan an exploratory trip and would really appreciate some suggestions and help narrowing down locations, to help us plan a trip.

Here is our criteria:

1. Prefer not to be near the ocean or beach as it is hotter. We think central Mexico would be good as it is cooler.
2. Elevation cannot be above 5000 feet due to health problems.
3. Don't like crowded cities, pollution, noise. Prefer to be surrounded by greenery and we like to grow things (food, herbs, flowers).
4. Housing for 2 or 3 BR home no more than $600-$700. Have two pets.
5. Within 30 minutes of good medical facilities.
6. Access to a gym would really be great or maybe option of a trainer?
7. Not too far from other expats as we will will not know anyone.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

TigerFox said:


> Greetings all! We are a retired couple currently living in Texas. We have been actively researching locations for quite some time. We are pretty close to packed. We are quite interested in Mexico as it seems to meet much of our criteria. We do not speak Spanish, however, we are studying. We do have the expectation that it is our responsibility to learn the country's language. One of us does speak a second language already.
> 
> We have the Expat Guide to Mexico (from Mexico on My Mind) to help us narrow down locations, which is no easy task. It is a much bigger country that we thought and it appears there are many choices. We are ready to plan an exploratory trip and would really appreciate some suggestions and help narrowing down locations, to help us plan a trip.
> 
> ...


5000 ft. is below the average elevation of the high central plateau in Mexico and eliminates almost everywhere nice. Maybe you could raise it to 6000 ft. elevation, what´s 1000 ft. more or less when you are already up here. I love it up here at 6000 ft..

San Juan del Río, Querétaro sounds about what you might be looking for. Altitude: 1.920 mt or 6300 ft.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

AlanMexicali said:


> 5000 ft. is below the average elevation of the high central plateau in Mexico and eliminates almost everywhere nice. Maybe you could raise it to 6000 ft. elevation, what´s 1000 ft. more or less when you are already up here. I love it up here at 6000 ft..
> 
> San Juan del Río, Querétaro sounds about what you might be looking for. Altitude: 1.920 mt or 6300 ft.


I agree with Alan. There are lots of places above 5000 ft, not much except coastal towns below it. Guadalajara/Lake Chapala is closer to 5000 feet than most of the interior places but still above 5000.

As far as some of your other criteria, almost any major city will have good medical facilities, gyms and other expats. Do you consider any city "crowded, polluted, and noisy". Smaller towns are less likely to have medical, gyms or other expats. Does "surrounded by greenery" mean you want to be out in the country? I see some conflicting goals in your list.

Good luck,


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

Chapala is at about 5200 feet and quite comfortable. We have access to lots of medicos here and easy acess to the fine hospitals in Guadalajara. There is even a good gym just around the corner from our home.


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## tepetapan (Sep 30, 2010)

Sounds like Xalapa, Veracruz area is exactly what you are looking for. Lush, green and around 3500 ft in elevation. 
Xalapa, being the state capital, is modern and offer good medical. The near by towns and villages may offers you a bit more leg room and a room to grow a garden. Plus it is a days' drive to the Texas border.


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## PanamaJack (Apr 1, 2013)

I suggest Xalapa or Jalapa, however you prefer. It is at 4,500 feet, has lush mountainsides, chipi-chipi (extended drizzle for a few hours) two months a year, universities, some American box stores, culture, gyms and it is just over an hour from the beach and its climate is mind most of the year except in May.
The one drawback in Xalapa is it does not have many expats. Of course, that is what interested me over 20 years ago and that is why I return numerous times a year to a small farm I have outside the city and an apartment I keep within the historic area of the city.
I do not know another expat in Xalapa, I do know there is at least one on this forum, but I get the feeling he prefers to stay to himself and I am similar and respect that. However, I am sure there are others here and there, and you will find out that once you learn the language, we are all the same anyway.
There is loads of culture, the Museum of Anthropology is one of the best in North America, with artifacts from 3,000 years ago. My wife and I love the music concerts on weekends at the universities and in the downtown area. The art galleries are nice, University of Veracruz has its headquarters in Xalapa. You can visit banana groves, coffee plantations and flower gardens. 
There are hilly streets and traffic can be tough, but I put my car in the garage and use either a scooter or walk the streets using the public transportation if I need to which is very efficient. I rented a three bedroom home for years until two years ago for US$300 and I purchased this two bedroom apartment for US$45,000. I have been offered US$65,000 for it, but I know there are plenty of places that are very nice within the price range you mentioned.
You will never find a place that is 100% to your liking. However, Xalapa has our heart and it could grab yours as well.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

Based on your stated criteia, there is one place in Mexico that is absolutely made for you. That would be the area on the banks of Lake Chapala known locally as "Lakeside", or parts of the municipalities of Chapala, Jocotepec and Poncitlan . The communities at lake level there are at almost precisely 5,000 feet and the climate there is nonpareil in North America. Almost constant sunshine and rain during the summer rainy season normally in short bursts and then primarily at dusk or during the night. The area has a number of gyms and professional trainers for your exercise routines and coutless kilometers of deserted lakefront beaches for solitary hiking with or without your mutts or modern, urban beachfront malecones for strolling among those enjoying the company of others. A large, very active expat community with English as a primary language with whom you may wish to congregate or avoid as you please as do I. An ideal area for gregarious and reclusive types alike. Good local medical care and within a short distance to Guadalajara, some of the very best physicians and hospitals in all of Mexico or in all or North America for that matter. Excellent internet and satellite telvision service of your choosing. Only a few minutes to a major international airport and maybe three to five hours to your favorite Pacific beaches for wintertime recreation when the weather is acceptable. All sorts of cultural activities both at Lakeside and in nearby Guadalajara without the hassle of big city living and the resultant congestion. Beautiful green mounatin and lake vistas during the summer rainy season and in your garden damn near anthing can be grown as the soil along the lake is rich and fertile and frosts are so rare I have been here for 13 years without seeing anything even approaching a frosty morning . For example, we grow all sorts of citrus trees in our garden and get about three fruit crops a year without even trying. We have such abundant fruit crops in our smalll garden that we have to give away limes (both Persian and ****** varieties) , lemons, sweet and bitter oranges, grapefruit, mandarins, ginger (and soon, galengal), lychees and probably some other stuff that has skipped my mind at the moment. 

Based on your criteria including your rental cost expectations, this is the place for you. No, I am not trying to sell my house as, despite the fact that I also live in the Chiapas Highlands at 7,000 feet about half of each year, I would never voluntarily leave the shores of Lake Chapala except seasonally for my annual Chiapas fix and then, with the notion of soon returning as long as I can cope with living in two towns for the sake of variety.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Yes, one of the Lakeside communities at Lake Chapala seem a good choice. Ajijic is listed at just a few feet over 5,000 ft. Lots of expats and services for expats ... including those who either don't speak Spanish or who are learning. And there are the myriad of services, including healthcare, found in Guadalajara.

Then there's Cuernavaca, Morelos which is just about 5,000 ft. Often referred to as a "garden spot," and a place with expats coming and going and many services for the middle-class community. Lots of language schools - teaching Spanish. And it's hour to hour and a half drive from Mexico City and all that huge city has to offer ... including probably the best collection of healtcare professionals and facilities in all of Mexico.

Xalapa's a good recommendation, as well.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

TigerFox said:


> Greetings all! We are a retired couple currently living in Texas. We have been actively researching locations for quite some time. We are pretty close to packed.


I meant to ask in my earlier response ... Have you reviewed Mexico's immigration/residency requirements? The changes to those regulations have taken many people by surprise because they'll have difficulty meeting the monthly income requirements. Best of luck. Oh, I meant to say earlier, also: :welcome: to the Mexico Forum!


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## tepetapan (Sep 30, 2010)

As my grand daughter might say," lakeside is Sooo 1980's" You can do much better than that without much work, thanks to the internet.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

tepetapan said:


> As my grand daughter might say," lakeside is Sooo 1980's" You can do much better than that without much work, thanks to the internet.


I used to live near a part of Redwood City, California called Little Mexico. It felt just like Mexico. All the shopkeepers spoke Spanish, few spoke English actually. There were carts selling food on the street. In evening Mariachi bands roamed up and down the sidewalk.

"Lakeside", as the towns on the shore of Lake Chapala are often referred to, strikes me as the counterpart to all the little Mexicos in the US. It is an environment that has reproduced many of the aspects of life in suburban US. Many people and probably most shopkeepers speak English. The largest English language library in Latin America is located there. There is even a local American Legion post.

It is an environment that people tend to love or hate. Few are neutral about it in my experience. Some find it a way to enjoy the climate and some of the culture of Mexico without giving up a familiar lifestyle. Others, feel it insulates them from Mexico and interferes with learning the language and acculturating to a new country.

One of the great things about life in Mexico is that it allows you choices.


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## PanamaJack (Apr 1, 2013)

TundraGreen said:


> I used to live near a part of Redwood City, California called Little Mexico. It felt just like Mexico. All the shopkeepers spoke Spanish, few spoke English actually. There were carts selling food on the street. In evening Mariachi bands roamed up and down the sidewalk.
> 
> "Lakeside", as the towns on the shore of Lake Chapala are often referred to, strikes me as the counterpart to all the little Mexicos in the US. It is an environment that has reproduced many of the aspects of life in suburban US. Many people and probably most shopkeepers speak English. The largest English language library in Latin America is located there. There is even a local American Legion post.
> 
> ...


But Tundra I wonder how the Mexicans feel? Are they pleased with all the expat money rolling in or upset because life the way they knew it no longer exists? Are they resentful because the northerners came south and bought up their land and made it too expensive for them to afford it? Maybe because I have live amongst Mexicans most of my life I often have the opinion that Lake Chapala is much worse off today than how I knew it in 1985.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

PanamaJack said:


> But Tundra I wonder how the Mexicans feel? Are they pleased with all the expat money rolling in or upset because life the way they knew it no longer exists? Are they resentful because the northerners came south and bought up their land and made it too expensive for them to afford it? Maybe because I have live amongst Mexicans most of my life I often have the opinion that Lake Chapala is much worse off today than how I knew it in 1985.


I think those are questions that can be addressed to any tourist area as well as to areas with lots of expats. I hear lots of resentment from Washingtonians (State) and Oregonians about all the Californians that have invaded Seattle and Portland. 

I suspect that there is not one answer to those questions. Many people benefit from all the customers and Canadian or US dollars that convert to pesos and circulate in the economy. Others, those that are not on the receiving end of that money, but only seeing increased expenses may not like it as much.


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## ElPaso2012 (Dec 16, 2012)

PanamaJack said:


> I suggest Xalapa or Jalapa, however you prefer. It is at 4,500 feet, has lush mountainsides, chipi-chipi (extended drizzle for a few hours) two months a year, universities, some American box stores, culture, gyms and it is just over an hour from the beach and its climate is mind most of the year except in May.
> The one drawback in Xalapa is it does not have many expats. Of course, that is what interested me over 20 years ago and that is why I return numerous times a year to a small farm I have outside the city and an apartment I keep within the historic area of the city.
> I do not know another expat in Xalapa, I do know there is at least one on this forum, but I get the feeling he prefers to stay to himself and I am similar and respect that. However, I am sure there are others here and there, and you will find out that once you learn the language, we are all the same anyway.
> There is loads of culture, the Museum of Anthropology is one of the best in North America, with artifacts from 3,000 years ago. My wife and I love the music concerts on weekends at the universities and in the downtown area. The art galleries are nice, University of Veracruz has its headquarters in Xalapa. You can visit banana groves, coffee plantations and flower gardens.
> ...


This picture of Xalapa confirms the general impression I got from researching Xalapa. The facts seemed to indicate that the climate would be more like that of San Jose, Costa Rica than any of the other Mexcan cities I'd researched, which is not that many I realize. I really liked San Jose the two weeks I was there. As people had told me, the rain came every single afternoon for the two weeks I there, usually about 4 pm. I found it to be refreshing, but --- as a few here have pointed out --- it might become a bit dreary at times for some people. Xalapa is subtropical, so rain comes with the territory. 

I'm not sure it would affect me at all. Additionally, those kind of late afternoon lighting conditions would make for some stunning landscape photographs. Your experience of renting the nice apartment for $300 a month reminds me of the deals I found in Juarez when I was going every weekend, things like two bedrooms, one bath, upstairs, with swamp cooler, decent appliances and quick service if anything did break for $250 a month. 

Xalapa is going to have the same kind of rental opportunities for those who take the time to get out on the ground and look the old fashioned way by talking to people. Strangely, I never saw a single apartment advertised in _El Diario_ that I much cared for, although I'm sure there must have been some. The ones I finally rented were all from acquaintances who knew I was looking. 

Well, thanks for some well written and thoughtful comments about Xalapa.


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## tepetapan (Sep 30, 2010)

TundraGreen said:


> I think those are questions that can be addressed to any tourist area as well as to areas with lots of expats. I hear lots of resentment from Washingtonians (State) and Oregonians about all the Californians that have invaded Seattle and Portland.
> 
> I suspect that there is not one answer to those questions. Many people benefit from all the customers and Canadian or US dollars that convert to pesos and circulate in the economy. Others, those that are not on the receiving end of that money, but only seeing increased expenses may not like it as much.


 I think you see things there with Jaded eyes. Some people benefit but most do not due to the high cost of living. The US media would call the area a bubble...one that is losing air as fast as the lake recedes. 
The people working in that area are as poor as many in Mexico at the end of the day, due to high costs of everyday needs. It is what it is.


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## Marishka (Feb 1, 2009)

PanamaJack said:


> I suggest Xalapa or Jalapa, however you prefer. It is at 4,500 feet, has lush mountainsides, chipi-chipi (extended drizzle for a few hours) two months a year, universities, some American box stores, culture, gyms and it is just over an hour from the beach and its climate is mind most of the year except in May.
> The one drawback in Xalapa is it does not have many expats. Of course, that is what interested me over 20 years ago and that is why I return numerous times a year to a small farm I have outside the city and an apartment I keep within the historic area of the city.
> I do not know another expat in Xalapa, I do know there is at least one on this forum, but I get the feeling he prefers to stay to himself and I am similar and respect that. However, I am sure there are others here and there, and you will find out that once you learn the language, we are all the same anyway.
> There is loads of culture, the Museum of Anthropology is one of the best in North America, with artifacts from 3,000 years ago. My wife and I love the music concerts on weekends at the universities and in the downtown area. The art galleries are nice, University of Veracruz has its headquarters in Xalapa. You can visit banana groves, coffee plantations and flower gardens.
> ...


Hmmm....4500 altitude, lush mountainsides, walkable with good public transportation, loads of culture, and just over an hour from the beach. 

Xalapa sounds like my kind of town! 

Which two months of the year do you get the chipi-chipi?


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

[
Perhaps some posters are failing to understand the genesis of this thread which was started by the OPs with a request for suggestions from other forum participants in helping them identify a place in Mexico that met certain criteria *set by them - *not a request for a delineation of places favored by whomever for whatever reason. The specific criteria are quite clear. Now, it happens that I live part of each year at Lake Chapala and part of each year in the Chiapas Highlands which could not be more different than the Lake Chapala area if it were in Honduras but the OP didn´t ask my opinion on places I preferred tol live - simply what places in Mexico most accurately meet the OP´s stated criteria so let´s go over those criteria below with my responses: 


_We have the Expat Guide to Mexico (from Mexico on My Mind) to help us narrow down locations, which is no easy task. It is a much bigger country that we thought and it appears there are many choices. We are ready to plan an exploratory trip and would really appreciate some suggestions and help narrowing down locations, to help us plan a trip.

Here is our criteria:

1. Prefer not to be near the ocean or beach as it is hotter. We think central Mexico would be good as it is cooler.
2. Elevation cannot be above 5000 feet due to health problems.

[*B]Lake Chapala is at precisely 5,000 feet in Central Mexico on the country´s high plateau with a refreshing climate offering an abundance of sunshine and a limited rainy season characterized by rains in short cloudbursts mostly occuring dirung the evening or early pre-dawn hours. While the area gets enough rain to keep the landscape beautifully green during the rainy season, dreary, incessant overcast and drizzle known in Mexico as chipi-chipi is rare indeed - almost unheard of. I can attest, since we maintain homes at 5,000 feet at Lake Chapala and, in Chiapas at 7,000 feet, that the differences between the oxygen levels and breathing comfort at 5,000 feet and 7,000 feet is remarkable and I note that from personal experience each and every year. Some move to the Lake Chapala *area from higher altitude places in the Mexican Highlands *such as the famous San Miguel de Allende just for respiratory relief.*

3. Don't like crowded cities, pollution, noise. Prefer to be surrounded by greenery and we like to grow things (food, herbs, flowers).

*The Lakeside area, consisting of parts of the municipalities of Chapala, Jocotepec and Poncitlan, is, overall, a small, uncrowded regional city with no air pollution and, compared to many other cites in Mexico, very little noise. We live in a neighborhood at Lakeside that is among the quietest in which I have ever lived in 
Mexico, the United States and France among other places. I already mentioned our garden and we are not wealthy by any means. You can grow an abundance of fruits, vegetables, herbs and spices at Lakeside all year around and never be without blooming flowers or more fruit than you can personally consume. If you can´t grow a garden in this paradisiacal climate then you can´t grow a garden anywhere on the planet. *

4. Housing for 2 or 3 BR home no more than $600-$700. Have two pets.

*We don´t rent and have owned our home here for 13 year but the rents you seek seem reasonable to me. In certain areas of what I have defined earlier as "lakeside", you can do better than $600-$700USD a month. A lot better if you persevere*. 


5. Within 30 minutes of good medical facilities.

*Good medical faciliies can be found all over Lakeside and Guadalajara, with outstanding hospitals and physicians and all sorts of specialists is 45 kilometers distant over excellent roads.*

6. Access to a gym would really be great or maybe option of a trainer?

*There are numerous gyms and trainers all around Lakeside and endless deserted beaches for extended hikes over flat terrain. I personally walk my five dogs about six to eight kilometers a day every day without fail over several different beaches and leafy urban areas. *

7. Not too far from other expats as we will will not know anyone.[/QUOTE]_

*Lots and lots of other expats and their organizations or churches or civic or culturally oriented groups will take you in if that is what you desire but stay the hell out of your personal space if that is what you desire as do I. A fine live-and-let-live mentality prevails.*

You can´t know this but there is a raging jealosy among many expats in other parts of Mexico seething with envy for those lucky enough to live here at the lake which has been popular with U.S. expats since the 1940s. Don´t let them sway you but, on the other hand, don´t let me sway you either. I much prefer my home in San Cristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas in many ways to the place I like to call "Peoria Upon Sump" but that area does not fit the criteria you delineated so I am not pushing it but, rather, a place that fits the needs you stated in your opening post better than just about any other place I can think of in North America. 

Good luck in your search. Before settling on Chiapas, I spent a lot of time looking at places all over central and Southern Mexico to which to move from Oaxaca to San Luis Potosí to Puebla to the Yucatan to several places in Veracruz State so can discuss other areas that might suit you if you wish but nothing I have seen in my travels has come as close to meeting your criteria as the Lake Chapala area. If anyone thinks they can prove me wrong point by point using your personal needs list, have at it. I welcome the challenge.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Hound Dog said:


> …
> You can´t know this but there is a raging jealosy among many expats in other parts of Mexico seething with envy for those lucky enough to live here at the lake which has been popular with U.S. expats since the 1940s. …


:flypig:


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## tepetapan (Sep 30, 2010)

it really has nothing to do with jealousy, it is the usual posts that follow an inquiry. Even if Lakeside does not fit the criteria, away we go to Chapala. 
It is all a numbers game, the most expats live  in a defined area, writing that their area is perfect. If a poster asks for ideas about a certain type area, why not try and think of an area that fits their criteria? Isn't that what this forum is suppose to be about.?


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

[_QUOTE=tepetapan;1428722]it really has nothing to do with jealousy, it is the usual posts that follow an inquiry. Even if Lakeside does not fit the criteria, away we go to Chapala. 
It is all a numbers game, the most expats live in a defined area, writing that their area is perfect. If a poster asks for ideas about a certain type area, why not try and think of an area that fits their criteria? Isn't that what this forum is suppose to be about.?[/QUOTE]_

If you read my most recent post, tepetapan, you seem to have read it inattentively. Jn that post, I addressed each separate criterion delineated by the OPs and responded to each stated criterion concluding that, it seemed to me that the Lake Chapala area came closer than any other place or, at least most other places, in Mexico in my experience in over a decade living in this country full time to meeting the OPs´criteria. I also not only welcomed rejoinder but encouraged it. No sniping, simply the identification of another Mexican community better fitting the goals of the OPs. 

Let me make it clear that I did not tout Lakeside because I am enamored of the place, rather, because in my judgment it is an area that best fits the characteristics that the OPs stated as meeting their goals in identifying their most sought after community in which to settle. As for my wife and me, we chose Lakeside from a list that included our much researched list of potential retirement communities which included Oaxaca City, Guadalajara, Merida, Cuernavaca or Xalapa; all were in the highlands except Merida which was the exception we made to that highland rule because we have been fond of the Yucatan, despite its atrocious climate, since we traveled there in the 1980s and Merida can be a charming city. My wife started with Guadalajara and Lakeside because that was the easiest flight from the Bay Area and, as often happens under those circumstances, she found a home that fit our needs at Lakeside, bought the place and canceled the rest of the planned itinerary. That´s the way it often works when one begins a home search with several disparate places to live on one´s list and finds a home on the market that meets all of the searcher´s criteria right off the bat in a hot market (as Lake Chapala was in those days) requiring an immediate decision. 

During the intervening years, we have traveled throughout central and southern Mexico seeking an alternative to the Lakeide area which, despite the fabulous climate and natural beauty of the area, was, for reasons personal to us, beginning to get on our nerves as a place in which to live full time. We conducted in-depth searches in San Luis Potosí, Oaxaca City and the Oaxaca Coast, Merida, Xalapa and the Yucatan Gulf Coast, Guadalajara, Bacalar, the Orizaba-Cordoba urban corridor in Veracruz and even tepetapan´s beloved Catemaco area and , on a lark, San Cristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas although it wasn´t on our list. We chose San Cristóbal as our second homesite despite what I would call a difficult climate which goes to show you that the best laid plans often are not connected with the final decision. 

Most of us spend our young lives in places where we have, through the accident of birth, familiy and friends or,even more importantly, jobs we have fallen into so our choices are limited. Upon retirement, we are, within our finaciial limitations, free to choose a place in which to live out our lives as one of Mitt Romney´s 45% of societal non-contributors, depending on others still in the work force to provide the necessities of life for our benefits. We choose this place or that place based on our criteria for what we like or can afford and then, some of us become personally affronted if others find fault with our decisions and snipe at us over those decisions. Thus this foolish competition to see who can most astutely extoll the virtues of those places in which we respectively reside. I say, who cares? I keep thinking that near Cartagena in a beach cottage with a constant sea breeze would be preferable to cold mountain winds off the Gulf in the Chiapas Highlands but then I´ve never been to the Colombian Caribbean and maybe wouldn´t like it once I got there so perhaps Cartagena is best as pipe dream.

Wasn´t it W.C. Fields´ tombstone that is reputed to read, "Personally, I´d rather be in Philadelphia." ?


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## tepetapan (Sep 30, 2010)

HD: Like you admitted in a post a couple months ago, You have never even driven through my town. Talking the talk and walking the walk are two different things. I am not the only member of the forum who has a memory.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

tepetapan wrong..we have been to Catemaco, nice place to visit.


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## PanamaJack (Apr 1, 2013)

Hound Dog said:


> [
> Perhaps some posters are failing to understand the genesis of this thread which was started by the OPs with a request for suggestions from other forum participants in helping them identify a place in Mexico that met certain criteria *set by them - *not a request for a delineation of places favored by whomever for whatever reason. The specific criteria are quite clear. Now, it happens that I live part of each year at Lake Chapala and part of each year in the Chiapas Highlands which could not be more different than the Lake Chapala area if it were in Honduras but the OP didn´t ask my opinion on places I preferred tol live - simply what places in Mexico most accurately meet the OP´s stated criteria so let´s go over those criteria below with my responses:
> 
> Good luck in your search. Before settling on Chiapas, I spent a lot of time looking at places all over central and Southern Mexico to which to move from Oaxaca to San Luis Potosí to Puebla to the Yucatan to several places in Veracruz State so can discuss other areas that might suit you if you wish but nothing I have seen in my travels has come as close to meeting your criteria as the Lake Chapala area. If anyone thinks they can prove me wrong point by point using your personal needs list, have at it. I welcome the challenge.


Hound Dog you are the pot calling the kettle black. I have read post after post after post of yours telling the OP that Chiapas and Lake Chapala are god's gift to the earth, when they did not request that sort of dissertation on your part and now you are telling posters that they are giving incorrect or biased information to the OP. 

Have you ever seen the show GEM on television - ****** en Mexico. If I did not know better I would think you were GEM. He travels all over the country to every corner from north to south and east to west, yet Dog you seem to know more about this beautiful country than he or anyone I have encountered on this forum or in real life. 

Are you just a 12 year resident of this fine nation or were you born and raised here and have an excellent command of the English Language? I thought you grew up with Forrest Gump on the coast of Alabama.

Just remember, there are other posters who have the same knowledge as you and their opinions have the same value as yours. Personally Lake Chapala is like being in the U.S. not Mexico and for expats who want to come to Mexico I would never recommend it, otherwise save the money and stay in the the U.S.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

tepetapan said:


> HD: Like you admitted in a post a couple months ago, You have never even driven through my town. Talking the talk and walking the walk are two different things. I am not the only member of the forum who has a memory.


I have indeed driven through and explored Catemaco, had lunch there and was highly unimpressed although I do like the lakefront despite the rustic nature of the town itself and the somewhat ratty lakefront structures overall. I was in that area primarily to explore the attractive nearby Tuxtlas as potential homesites and exited the area through Catemaco as we traversed Highway 180 to return to the La Tinaja-Minatitlan Cuota and proceed on to our destination in the Chiapas Highlands. We had originally thought of spending the night in Catemaco to explore it more thoroughly but, upon a cursory exploration after lunch decided that it failed to meet our personal criteria for a place in which to establish a residence - especially since the Tuxtlas are such attractive communities in splendid settings by comparison, at least in our view. Catemaco is certainly in a nice natural stting with the lake so some of you may find it a pleasing and inexpensive place to live as does tepetapan. 

Speaking of memory, aren´t you, tepetapan, the guy who advised motorists a few years ago that the cuota between Acayucan and Tuxtla Gutierrez, Chiapas was open for travel despite major flooding in the region after I had warned motorists against travel in that area until flood waters had receded? As my faulty memory serves me, at least one motorist spent some 20 hours sitting and sleeping in their car in a twenty mile long traffic jam on that cuota waiting for the road to reopen once above water so he/she could proceed on to Chiapas. 

Despite the beauty of the area around the San Martin Volcano near Santiago Tuxtla and San Andres Tuxtla, we have not traveled that route since but on the day we did take that detour from our drive from Orizaba to San Cristóbal on the cuota, we took Highway 175 from Cosamaloapan up the river road to beautiful and historic Tlacotalpan and then south to the Tuxtlas, Catemaco and then on back to the cuota to Chiapas. This is a scenic drive worth the detour and, since the drive from the Orizaba area to either the Chiapas Highlands or on to Villahermosa is easily accomplished in about seven hours, the scenic detour through this area is worth the trouble.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

PanamaJack said:


> I thought you grew up with Forrest Gump on the coast of Alabama.


:behindsofa: LOL!


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## tepetapan (Sep 30, 2010)

HD: You can't remember where you have been, what you wrote a couple months ago or weather you love or hate where you live or lived. 
Give it up. It is no longer a secret.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

[_QUOTE=PanamaJack;1429913]Hound Dog you are the pot calling the kettle black. I have read post after post after post of yours telling the OP that Chiapas and Lake Chapala are god's gift to the earth, when they did not request that sort of dissertation on your part and now you are telling posters that they are giving incorrect or biased information to the OP. 

Have you ever seen the show GEM on television - ****** en Mexico. If I did not know better I would think you were GEM. He travels all over the country to every corner from north to south and east to west, yet Dog you seem to know more about this beautiful country than he or anyone I have encountered on this forum or in real life. 

Are you just a 12 year resident of this fine nation or were you born and raised here and have an excellent command of the English Language? *I thought you grew up with Forrest Gump on the coast of Alabama.*

Just remember, there are other posters who have the same knowledge as you and their opinions have the same value as yours. Personally Lake Chapala is like being in the U.S. not Mexico and for expats who want to come to Mexico I would never recommend it, otherwise save the money and stay in the the U.S.[/QUOTE]_

Well, I didn´t actually grow up with Forrest Gump on the Alabama Coast but did live just outside of the fictional Gump´s Bayou la Batre shrimping village on the coast for a few years back in the 1970s. I also attended the University of Alabama during the Bear Bryant era at the same time as did Winston Groom who wrote *Forrest Gump *from which the movie was adapted. Then lived in Berkeley and San Francisco at the time Gump´s fictional girl friend Jennie lived there during the "Summer of Love" which turned bad for me just as it did for her in the late 1960s. Unlike Forrest and Bubba, I did not go to Vietnam (even though I wa a Marine Corps infantryman at the time) nor did I buy Apple stock for a song but I did get stuck in a hurricane or two on the coast.

I remind you as I did tepetapan, I did not recommend Lake Chapala but indicated that that area meets the criteria as set forth by the OPs in that original post inquiry. As for your recommendation that the OPs simply remain in the U.S. rather than move to Lake Chapala as the two places are similar, here are some differences upon which to chew:
* The only place in the U.S. with a climate even remotely similar to Lake Chapala´s is Coastal California where I lived for some 35 years. For a similar home at Lake Chapala, I paid about 20% of what I would have paid in the San Francisco Bay Area and my property taxes on that similar home here run about $200USD per annum versus about $7,000per annum in California. Even better, my property taxes in Chiapas, once again for a home similar to our homes in California and at Lake Chapala, run an astonishing $25USD a year with our 50% elderly discount - instead of $50USD otherwise. Yet, even with this huge difference in the property tax burdens in both Jalisco and Chiapas, we receive the same or better municipal services we received in California at a pittance here. 
* Here at Lake Chapala, it is very rarely hot and then only during a two month window in the spring and never cold. We need no air conditioning nor central heat and get by with really unnecessary ceiling fans we run at night just for fun and a couple of propane wall heaters used rarely except during the dead of winter when it sometimes (but rarely) gets down into the 50s fahrenheit at about 3:00AM. Because the bright sub-tropical sun blesses us on most days all year long, we installed solar supplemental electricity here with panels on our roof so our electricity bill runs us about the equivalent of $10USD a month. As a result, our fixed costs of utilities and property taxes aggregate about the equivalent of $30USD a month - try that in the U.S.
* Food costs at Lake Chapala are remarkably low and in Chiapas those costs are even considerably lower than at Lake Chapala. When we visit the U.S. or, especially, France, we are astonished at the costs of food which, after years of living here stretch credulity. The costs one incurs for food and entertainment is a factor of that person´s taste and willingness to spend or save so I won´t go into specifics here but believe me, food costs here are a fraction of those costs in the U.S. or France.
* People who do not live at Lake Chapala often have a false notion that living in the "Lakeside" area, which encompasses only a small geographic portion of the vast lakeshore mimics living in the U.S. The notion that living here is akin to living in the U.S is true to a certain extent but only if one chooses to live in one of the expat enclaves that dot the area and also chooses to congregate with other expats almost exclusively. We and many other expats live in the Ajijic Village which,as in the case of the Chapala and Jocotepec urban zones alongside the lake, is mostly Mexican with foreigners interspersed here and there for the most part. I would never compare the neighborhood in which we live in Ajijic wth that we inhabit in San Cristóbal but anyone who thinks that the Ajijic Village, and especially the Seis Esquinas area where we live, is unlike their flawed definition of "Mexico" is simply being naive. 

Despite having lived in the Ajijic area for some 13 years and the Chiapas Highlands for seven years, we belong to no organizations catering to expats, do not congregate with expats except on rare occasions and most of our friends and acquaitances are Mexicans either of mestizo or indigenous heritage. That doesn´t mean we lead a lifestyle that is either superior or inferior to our expat compatriots and I point that out only to make it clear to the reader that the choice of whether or not to concentrate or mingle with the expat community or the local community or both is up to each of us no matter where we live in Mexico where other expats can be found - one of the ctriteria set forth by the OPs in their original inquiry.


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## PanamaJack (Apr 1, 2013)

I mentioned Xalapa earlier but you might also look at Cuernavaca or Tlaltenango

1. Prefer not to be near the ocean or beach as it is hotter. We think central Mexico would be good as it is cooler. *Cuernavaca is at least two and a half to three hours from Acapulco. *

2. Elevation cannot be above 5000 feet due to health problems. *4,950 feet above sea level*

3. Don't like crowded cities, pollution, noise. Prefer to be surrounded by greenery and we like to grow things (food, herbs, flowers). *Not overcrowded by any means. Less crowded during the week as many well to do Mexicans have homes they use only on the weekend or during holidays*

4. Housing for 2 or 3 BR home no more than $600-$700. Have two pets. *My sister in law has two home that she rent to expats for US$500 and US$600 respectively. Both are within five minutes walk from Juarez Gardens. Both have three or more bedrooms, not sure, but no less than three. Just to give an idea of rental costs.*

5. Within 30 minutes of good medical facilities. *Very good medical facilities are found in Cuernavaca *

6. Access to a gym would really be great or maybe option of a trainer? *There are at least four or five complete gym facilities *

7. Not too far from other expats as we will will not know anyone.* There are more than enough expats in the area. *


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I wonder why we do not hear more about Cuernavaca one of the places I have not been, It seems that you pick your climate by going higher or lowe in town or surrounding. It seems like the perfect climate to me . I have to get there one of these days!


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## Marishka (Feb 1, 2009)

Hound Dog said:


> 5. Within 30 minutes of good medical facilities.
> 
> *Good medical faciliies can be found all over Lakeside and Guadalajara, with outstanding hospitals and physicians and all sorts of specialists is 45 kilometers distant over excellent roads.*


Hound Dog, how long does it take to get from Ajijic to any of the best hospitals in Guadalajara? For instance, what if someone has a heart attack? Does Ajijic have fully equipped ambulances with all the life saving equipment, as described here?



citlali said:


> I wonder why we do not hear more about Cuernavaca one of the places I have not been, It seems that you pick your climate by going higher or lowe in town or surrounding. It seems like the perfect climate to me . I have to get there one of these days!


Cuernavaca also has some of the best Spanish language schools in Mexico.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Marishka said:


> Cuernavaca also has some of the best Spanish language schools in Mexico.


I don't necessarily disagree, but I wonder where you got this information from. Have you studied at one of these schools yourself? Of course, apart from the quality of the school, Cuernavaca would be a delightful place to spend a few months while learning Spanish.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Yes I know about the schools but there are not many expats living in Cuernavaca or around posting about it. Maybe they are too busy with their Spanish classes..


We have clinics at the Lake side but if you need an MRI like in the case of a stroke you are an hour away...a little far , just enough time to die or end up in a bad shape.so is life.


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## Marishka (Feb 1, 2009)

Isla Verde said:


> I don't necessarily disagree, but I wonder where you got this information from. Have you studied at one of these schools yourself? Of course, apart from the quality of the school, Cuernavaca would be a delightful place to spend a few months while learning Spanish.


Isla, I've only been to two places in Mexico as a tourist--Mexico City and Acapulco, and I went as a young person who had only studied Latin and German. I've been studying Spanish for about 4 or 5 years and am ready for the next step of going the immersion school route in Mexico. I've done my best to track down the best Spanish language schools in Mexico.

The most helpful resource I found is a book called Spanish: Live it and Learn it! The Complete Guide to Language Immersion Schools in Mexico. The author is an award-winning professor of Spanish who personally checked out the schools that are described and rated in the book.

Here are some details from a review at Amazon:


> As one trying to choose a language immersion school in Mexico, I found this book to be extremely useful, thorough and concise. It helped me narrow down my search quickly by providing me with specifics on what each school had to offer. The book included information on the school location in Mexico, details about the region, language programs, cost, living arrangements (down to how many shared a bathroom) and even dialects of Spanish used by each program.
> 
> I also appreciated inclusion of details about online access and computers labs. These were a `must have' for me, and the book clearly laid out which schools have them, which don't, and how much they would cost. Additionally, the focus on culture was refreshing and extremely informative. One of the reasons I'm enrolling in one of these programs is to immerse myself in the culture as well as the language...so the insights offered by the book were really helpful.
> 
> Occasionally, I was surprised by the depth of information that the book provided. I didn't even know you could receive University credit back in the States for having completed a program at these schools. Not only does the book explain the process of how this is done, it gives you the names of each University or Community College that accepts classes at a particular immersion school for credit.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Isla Verde said:


> I don't necessarily disagree, but I wonder where you got this information from. Have you studied at one of these schools yourself? Of course, apart from the quality of the school, Cuernavaca would be a delightful place to spend a few months while learning Spanish.


For many years, Cuernavaca was known as THE Spanish-language learning center in Mexico. The US Peace Corps, various Roman Catholic religious orders, etc., sent their people to a school or schools in Cuernavaca to learn Spanish. In the 1990s San Miguel de Allende became known as a language learning center and many schools recruited students from throughout the World. Oaxaca, Morelia and Guansajuato saw schools spring-up, but I've thought they were considered of lesser quality, or present in lesser numbers than the other places I've mentioned. I think Cuernavaca probably still has language programs more widely recognized by various foreign governments and educational institutions.

Following the big earthquakes in the 1980s in Mexico City, many D.F. wealthy bought second homes in Cuernavaca. It quickly became a weekend retreat. The city's population grew steadily and, IMO, many of the negatives of a large city followed. Such as air contamination, traffic. But many middle-class and upper class Mexicans still have homes there (people from the D.F.) and many vacation there. I think it was frequently called "the garden spot of Mexico" or some such complimentary description.

In the 1950's 60s and early 70s, many wealthy expats bought homes and wintered in Cuernavaca, if I'm recalling correctly. It was quite the place then and many of the expats who liked to brag about their international travel would point-out they wintered or vacationed in Cuernavaca.

With the influx of many more expats, people more widely traveling and discovering more of Mexico ... Cuernavaca's popularity amongst the expats has lessened, though many still winter or visit there. I don't think there's a webforum or more than maybe one expat organization in Cuernavaca. I've always thought the city attracted people who were more artsy/fartsy who've thought themselves above posting on forums.

The climate in Cuernavaca is good, year round. Or so that's what it seems to be to me. I've visited many times. Proximity to the D.F. is one of the principal reasons to locate there, for people who don't want to be swallowed-up by the D.F. Megalopolis. Within an hour to hour and a half you can be at the Mexico City airport (Cuernavaca has a small airport which had, at one time, and mybe still does, offer some service connecting other cities in the interior of Mexico), or at a physician or dentist office or a hospital, or anything else the big city offers in the ways of convenience. Cuernavaca is also an easy drive from Acapulco and the famed beaches there. So, for some expats ... it's the ideal place to live.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Longford said:


> For many years, Cuernavaca was known as THE Spanish-language learning center in Mexico. The US Peace Corps, various Roman Catholic religious orders, etc., sent their people to a school or schools in Cuernavaca to learn Spanish. …


Fact check time.

I don't know anything about "various Roman Catholic religious orders, etc", but I do know about the US Peace Corps. They did not have people in Mexico until October 2004. I was in the fifth group, arriving in 2007. The Peace Corps Mexico headquarters is now and has always been in Querétaro. For the first 8 groups or so, including mine, the Spanish training was carried out at Olé, a language school in Querétaro. Since then, Peace Corps has hired teachers and managed the Spanish training in their own facility in Querétaro.


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## Marishka (Feb 1, 2009)

Longford said:


> For many years, Cuernavaca was known as THE Spanish-language learning center in Mexico


James Horn, the author of Cuernavaca: a Guide for Students & Tourists, wrote in his book that a few years ago Cuernavaca was the second largest center in the world for Spanish study after Salamanca, Spain. But then because of Mexico's drug war, fewer international visitors came because of fears of violence, which resulted in the closure of many schools and the down-sizing of others. 

Dr. Horn was coordinator of the State University of New York Program in Cuernavaca for 25 years. He has supervised over 100 university and Road Scholar student groups at what he regards as the most professional school, the Center for Bilingual Studies at Universidad Internacional (UNINTER)


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

TundraGreen said:


> Fact check time.
> 
> I don't know anything about "various Roman Catholic religious orders, etc", but I do know about the US Peace Corps. They did not have people in Mexico until October 2004. I was in the fifth group, arriving in 2007. The Peace Corps Mexico headquarters is now and has always been in Querétaro. For the first 8 groups or so, including mine, the Spanish training was carried out at Olé, a language school in Querétaro. Since then, Peace Corps has hired teachers and managed the Spanish training in their own facility in Querétaro.


The training of Peace Corps personnel, in Mexico, was, as I understand it, not for assignment in Mexico but to teach them Spanish before being assigned to Spanish-speaking countries in the hemisphere. Friends of mine who were assigned to Peru completed their language training in Cuernavaca, If I'm recalling correctly. As I previousloy wrote ... " ... _sent_ their people ..." My friends must have been mistaken. But, since you understand the history of Peace Corps language training over the years better than I ... I stand corrected.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Longford said:


> The training of Peace Corps personnel, in Mexico, was, as I understand it, not for assignment in Mexico but to teach them Spanish before being assigned to Spanish-speaking countries in the hemisphere. Friends of mine who were assigned to Peru completed their language training in Cuernavaca, If I'm recalling correctly. As I previousloy wrote ... " ... _sent_ their people ..." My friends must have been mistaken. But, since you understand the history of Peace Corps language training over the years better than I ... I stand corrected.


That is possible. The Peace Corps has been around for more than 50 years now. I only know about the recent history in Mexico. There were no volunteers serving in Mexico before 2004, but I don't know about language training prior to that time. You may be right. Google doesn't come up with any references to it, but who knows.


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## TigerFox (Aug 16, 2013)

PanamaJack said:


> I suggest Xalapa or Jalapa, however you prefer. It is at 4,500 feet, has lush mountainsides, chipi-chipi (extended drizzle for a few hours) two months a year, universities, some American box stores, culture, gyms and it is just over an hour from the beach and its climate is mind most of the year except in May.
> The one drawback in Xalapa is it does not have many expats. Of course, that is what interested me over 20 years ago and that is why I return numerous times a year to a small farm I have outside the city and an apartment I keep within the historic area of the city.
> I do not know another expat in Xalapa, I do know there is at least one on this forum, but I get the feeling he prefers to stay to himself and I am similar and respect that. However, I am sure there are others here and there, and you will find out that once you learn the language, we are all the same anyway.
> There is loads of culture, the Museum of Anthropology is one of the best in North America, with artifacts from 3,000 years ago. My wife and I love the music concerts on weekends at the universities and in the downtown area. The art galleries are nice, University of Veracruz has its headquarters in Xalapa. You can visit banana groves, coffee plantations and flower gardens.
> ...


Thanks so much for that information and suggestions. It had this city on my list of possibilities and I will do a bit more research. I see that it was mentioned as the Flower Garden of Mexico, so it sounds lovely. 

As we won't know anyone there, it would be most helpful to have some contacts prior to arrival.


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## TigerFox (Aug 16, 2013)

TundraGreen said:


> I agree with Alan. There are lots of places above 5000 ft, not much except coastal towns below it. Guadalajara/Lake Chapala is closer to 5000 feet than most of the interior places but still above 5000.
> 
> As far as some of your other criteria, almost any major city will have good medical facilities, gyms and other expats. Do you consider any city "crowded, polluted, and noisy". Smaller towns are less likely to have medical, gyms or other expats. Does "surrounded by greenery" mean you want to be out in the country? I see some conflicting goals in your list.
> 
> Good luck,


I don't think all cities are crowded, polluted and noisy. However, being in a crowded inner type setting is what we do not want. 

As far as the "surrounded by greenery" preference, we want to be able to grow things and not be in a climate where that is difficult, or where rain is rare. Where we live in Texas, it is green all year long and we like that, however, the ground here is gumbo, very hard and must be mixed with other soil in order to make it work. That part is not good and we really don't like it.


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## TigerFox (Aug 16, 2013)

RVGRINGO said:


> Chapala is at about 5200 feet and quite comfortable. We have access to lots of medicos here and easy acess to the fine hospitals in Guadalajara. There is even a good gym just around the corner from our home.


That sounds good.


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## TigerFox (Aug 16, 2013)

One thing that I have hunting for is whether or not there are any areas close to Lake Chapala or Xalapa which are at a somewhat lower elevation in order to acclimate ( to the elevation) a bit. It would be good to be able to stop at those first. I've been searching on the web for that information, and so far, have found nothing. Anyone have any ideas?


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


TigerFox said:



One thing that I have hunting for is whether or not there are any areas close to Lake Chapala or Xalapa which are at a somewhat lower elevation in order to acclimate ( to the elevation) a bit. It would be good to be able to stop at those first. I've been searching on the web for that information, and so far, have found nothing. Anyone have any ideas?

Click to expand...

_TigerFox:

I don´t know if you have some special respiratory condition that inspired the above inquiry but unles you do, let me assure you that getting used to the atmosphere at Lake Chapala´s or Xalapa´s altitude should not be a serious probem for you even if you are from the Texas flatlands. I was born and raised at sea leve in Alabama, my wife was born and raised in low-altitude Paris and we lived primarily in sea level San Francisco for some 30 years before moving to Lake Chapala at 5,000 feet. At that altitude there is no serious adjustment problem for people in normal health coming from sea level communities. In fact, we also live at 7,000 feet in the Chiapas Highlands and, although, one can discern the differences at respiratory adjustment there it is only a passing problem of no serious consequence unless one has a respiratory malfunction of some kind.

If that still concerns you, there are a number of attractive communities within reasonable proximity to both the shores of Lake Chapala and Xalapa that you would find easily managable. I would suggest that you choose communities at 3,000 to 4,000 feet or you are beginning to approach the lowland areas known in Mexico as "tierras calientes" here your trade-off will be hot ond often humid weather but, since you are from Texas, that may just suit you fine. 

Since you have limited the areas in which you are interested to(sort of) near Xalapa or Lake Chapala, I will not specify my favorite areas in my favorite state of Chiapas but suggest the following couple of regions:
* Comala or Colima, Colima
* Orizaba or Cordiba , Veracruz
* Coatepec, Veracruz


You wil need to cope with Spanish in these places.


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