# What will reduce crime in Mexico?



## Infidel_jack

I believe that before the end of the AMLO sexenio, the Mexican people will force a huge reduction in corruption and trafficking. 
The Mexican People are already sick and tired of having their jobs stolen by illegal aliens and the crime they cause on their transit to the Northern border. 
Human traffickers are kidnapping children to be sold as sex slaves in the US. 
Closing down the trafficking on the Northern and Southern borders will starve the cartels and the deep state. 
This will cause problems at first but it is the key to making Mexico Great Again. 
I love Mexico and Mexicans. They deserve to be able to experience safety and prosperity in their home and continue their wonderful cultures. (I used the plural of culture because Mexican cultures are regional.)
Whether you think I am right or wrong does not matter but I look forward to your predictions, hopefully positive.


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## surabi

What reduces crime is a good public education system, good medical care, government social programs to help the poor and otherwise disadvantaged, and economic opportunities (legal ones).


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## ojosazules11

surabi said:


> What reduces crime is a good public education system, good medical care, government social programs to help the poor and otherwise disadvantaged, and economic opportunities (legal ones).


I agree. Also adequate wages are key, especially for those in law enforcement to help reduce the allure of petty bribery and corruption. I also believe that training new, young law enforcement officers, emphasizing the rule of law and integrity, and ensuring adequate pay is essential. I recently was speaking with a police officer who had to leave Mexico with his family due to safety concerns. He had been specially trained and put right into a leadership position in the police force in his city, rather than rising through the ranks. A lot of the older officers resented that, but moreso they resented that he did not turn a blind eye to the corruption he saw, both within the police force itself, as well as in the mayor's office. He feels proud of the bit he was able to do to change the culture of corruption in Mexico, but he paid a high price for his integrity. Fortunately he survived and was able to get out of Mexico alive with his young family. Others have not been so lucky.


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## citlali

so what will reduce the crime in the US?.. there is no answer to that question , not in the US and not in Mexico..


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## RVGRINGO

Perhaps in both countries, conscription would help. Once drafted, discipline and useful training could begin in trades, professions and some soldiering, as needed. No discharge until a marketable civilian trade certification is earned. Bad actors to be dealt with appropriately; not turned loose on the public.


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## citlali

funny you say that RV , that is what my husband and I said as well. military service whether in the armed forces or working doing community service probably would expose a lot of kids to other races, cultures and as you said discipline and probably would help opening the mind of some.
Many times the most racist people are people who do not know blacks or latinos or anyone from another culture and have no contact with anyone outside of their own culture. Is s really important to force young people to mix with people who are different and respects other cultures.,


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## surabi

citlali said:


> so what will reduce the crime in the US?.. there is no answer to that question , not in the US and not in Mexico..


The same things I mentioned above. Countries that make sure their citizens are well-looked after and educated have far lower crime rates than countries that don't.


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## surabi

This is the kind of thing that breeds crime: https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/efforts-to-combat-extreme-poverty-have-made-few-gains-in-10-years/

I have to disagree with you, RV and Citlali, about the military service. While of course that would teach young people a sense of responsibility, it's parents' jobs to instill good values in their children, and teach by example. We shouldn't have to send our kids to military school to accomplish those kids turning out to be decent members of society. But it seems alot of parents are falling down on that job these days- just buying their kids all the latest devices and thinking that being "friends" with their kids is what parenting is all about.


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## citlali

I am not talking about a school but about the military service at 18.. There are plenty of kids who do not get out of their environement and are uner bad nfluence from their own family or from their neighborhodd and friends,THe military service breaks those ties for a while and mix the young men and women should go to , expose them to discipline and a differnt way to live. here should be no exception and all rich and poor should have to serve... . It could be a military / community service type of work but the kids should be getting out of their environement and mix with other socio economic class kids, other races, other cultures,, Parents cannot do that,


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## JRinPV

*JRinPV*

Military Service ? sure teach 'em how to kill people LOL !


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## citlali

It is obvious that they do not need the military service to teach them how to kill people, they are alredy doing that.. Odd balls could be identified as they live in a group..


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## RVGRINGO

Certain agressive types could be 'accepted' into seal training. Sharks and killer whales love seals.


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## RVGRINGO

Some countries have great success with periodic testing of students. After the first couple of years, there is a sorting out process at about age seven, then again at about 14, etc. Those fit for trades are sent to trade schools, while those with military aptitudes will go to military academies, and the brightest will go on to the best universities. It works, and even a very poor family may see a child succeed in the highest levels, if the child's abilities propel him there. Yes, it is competitive, as it should be. No, not everyone is created "equal", they just have equal rights, but have to earn opportunity. Children are naturally competitive, but with varying degrees of curiosity and capability. That fact must be recognized and accommodated.


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## perropedorro

Transparency


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## GARYJ65

This is quite a subject. Neither Mexicans or Americans know how to control violence. Most probably it will continue growing in the next years, since no program has even put in place to attack this issue.


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## chicois8

I believe the answer is Nothing !!! 
or maybe when there is peace in the middle East ...

Mexico is too deeply rooted in graft and corruption to change at this late date...
From the city cop or customs agent to the the presidents office everyone gets a piece of the pie...
small businesses closing because they can't or refuse to pay extortion... 
Lets not forget how the cartels have brought in there own brand of murder and mayhem.

That is why I* answered Nothing !!!


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## surabi

RVGRINGO said:


> Some countries have great success with periodic testing of students. After the first couple of years, there is a sorting out process at about age seven, then again at about 14, etc. Those fit for trades are sent to trade schools, while those with military aptitudes will go to military academies, and the brightest will go on to the best universities. It works, and even a very poor family may see a child succeed in the highest levels, if the child's abilities propel him there. Yes, it is competitive, as it should be. No, not everyone is created "equal", they just have equal rights, but have to earn opportunity. Children are naturally competitive, but with varying degrees of curiosity and capability. That fact must be recognized and accommodated.


I heartily disagree that this approach is useful or fair. Too many kids are labelled from an early age. A child who seems unfocused and unable to do the work at hand may be suffering from any number of undiagnosed medical or psychological issues, or abuse that have nothing to do with the child's aptitude or intelligence. I hate to see educators decide that one child is suited to trade school and another to university. This type of "streaming" has been going on for quite a awhile. Just because a kid is super bright and good at schoolwork doesn't mean they wouldn't be happier being an electrician or a carpenter than a doctor or lawyer, and just because a child may have to work harder to make the grades to get into university doesn't mean they wouldn't be motivated to do so and make a fine teacher or accountant. 
My father was the principal engineer of a large research facility all his adult life, has patents in his name and all. But he told me he would have been much happier owning a garage and just being a grease monkey all day.


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## RVGRINGO

I do not disagree with you, but you must admit that your father could have made the choice to become a grease monkey. There are many paths that I would love to have followed. However, I learned about some of them too late, and others were simply unavailable or remained unknown to me. So, we should include good guidance in the process of sorting out the 'abilities'. I never had any, and it is still lacking in most school systems.


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## citlali

I was raised in a system were kids were screened and their futue was decide by age 11 or so.. The problem is that kids do not develop at the ame age some mature early some do not and it was practically impossible to switch from one system to another. There was also a social stygma against the kids chosing trade schools..but then France is very class conscious and has a stilted society.


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## surabi

RVGRINGO said:


> I do not disagree with you, but you must admit that your father could have made the choice to become a grease monkey. There are many paths that I would love to have followed. However, I learned about some of them too late, and others were simply unavailable or remained unknown to me. So, we should include good guidance in the process of sorting out the 'abilities'. I never had any, and it is still lacking in most school systems.


He didn't make that choice because back in the late forties it was expected that if a man had the ability to pursue higher education and land a "good" job, that's what was expected in middle class US society. And at the time he went into engineering, he didn't really think about the fact that he'd be happier working on cars all day and running his own business rather than sitting at a desk all day. Experience is the best teacher and hindsight is a useless thing if it's too late to change course


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## GARYJ65

surabi said:


> He didn't make that choice because back in the late forties it was expected that if a man had the ability to pursue higher education and land a "good" job, that's what was expected in middle class US society. And at the time he went into engineering, he didn't really think about the fact that he'd be happier working on cars all day and running his own business rather than sitting at a desk all day. Experience is the best teacher and hindsight is a useless thing if it's too late to change course


And that 40s formula worked for all American society right? Latinos, blacks, asians, women


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## citlali

Well Gary in the 40´s a man was white..never mind the others..


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## GARYJ65

citlali said:


> Well Gary in the 40´s a man was white..never mind the others..


That’s what I meant


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## surabi

GARYJ65 said:


> And that 40s formula worked for all American society right? Latinos, blacks, asians, women


Of course it didn't. Sorry to have generalized, I was just thinking about the kind of expectations my dad experienced back then, who was white (though a minority in that he was Jewish). White middle class women were expected to stay home and take care of the house and kids after WWII (advertising was actually pointedly designed to glorify housekeeping, with women going into nearly orgasmic rapture over their clean floors and laundry) because so many women were working during the war and the returning men wanted their jobs back and the wifies safely ensconsed at home. I don't know what the expectations were for middle class Latinos, blacks or Asians, simply because they weren't part of my world at that time. I don't recall there being even one black student in my suburban Kansas high school population of 2800 and there certainly weren't any Latinos or Asians.


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## xolo

citlali said:


> I was raised in a system were kids were screened and their futue was decide by age 11 or so.. The problem is that kids do not develop at the ame age some mature early some do not and it was practically impossible to switch from one system to another. There was also a social stygma against the kids chosing trade schools..but then France is very class conscious and has a stilted society.


This is a recurrent theme of mine (in a way). France is often associated with human rights. Everyone has the same rights == everyone has to be the same. Only 10% or so of France spoke "French" (langues d'oïl) at the time of the revolution. That diversity isn't such a "problem" today. Even today, the Basque language in France is deteriorating (a great deal compared to Spain).


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## RVGRINGO

Different mixes in different places, for sure. 
I grew up in the 40s-50s in a remote northeast town. I never saw a black person until the mid-50s, and just never gave it any thought, as I had seen pictures of them before. Our area was predominantly white French Catholic, with a scattering of a protestant minority, and even a few ethnic Italians, and other Europeans, as the government settled some refugees in the area in the '40s.
That was my world, until I left home for University in 1955. Then, I began to learn more about the wider world, and to explore it. 
Violence seems to be universal, unfortunately. It stems from fear.


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## citlali

The blacks I grew up with were rich, the poor migrants were Poles and Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese and the really poor ones wee from North Africa although they were French so not considered migrants.

Yes every country had different mixes..


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## [email protected]

surabi said:


> Of course it didn't. Sorry to have generalized . . . I don't know what the expectations were for middle class Latinos, blacks or Asians, simply because they weren't part of my world at that time. I don't recall there being even one black student in my suburban Kansas high school population of 2800 and there certainly weren't any Latinos or Asians.


I remember my elementary, junior high and high school classes . . . Blacks, Japanese, Latinos, Catholic, Jewish, Christian, Buddist ( Hari Krishna ) . . . with after school intramural sports, and most of us got part-time jobs . . . Class of '70 with 248 seniors . . . 

I believe my point from my experience is simply, I was able to learn and work for others, gaining respect, an appreciation for my $1.65/hr pay ( and what that could buy ) . . . I didn't learn envy, nor "I'm better that you" . . . I just appreciated the few friends I pal'd around with . . . have a few friends to this day . . . grins . . . con una sonrisa


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## GARYJ65

*See?*

Now Philadelphia, and in Mexico bodies keep “appearing “
It’ll get worse


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## xolo

citlali said:


> Well Gary in the 40´s a man was white..never mind the others..


If you want to make this from a more Mexican point of view, in the 40's a man was in the Mestizo mainstream in an urban environment (of course Spanish-speaking)... never mind the others (rural, indigenous, etc).

The rural schools were in full operation to teach people to be ashamed of their language, that's when my area lost its monolingual local language.


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## Denmex

citlali said:


> so what will reduce the crime in the US?.. there is no answer to that question , not in the US and not in Mexico..


Sure there is an answer to that question. It's all about integrity and it starts in the homes. Whether it is children or adults when the pain becomes more than the pleasure, attitudes change.


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## elderp

The average salary for a Mexican Police man or woman is $350 USD per month. Until they are paid a decent wage you will have corruption. As long as there is corruption there is violence. Mexican police need to start making a living wage, like $1,250 USD a month and then it will get better.


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## citlali

First the police is getting paid in pesos not in dollars and $1250 a month??Like 24000 or 25 000 pesos a month?? Dream on ...By the way the police are not the only corrupt people in the country, corruption is rampant from the lowest echelon to the highest, the police is just a very small amount of that system.

There is not always violence around corruption, corruption is a way of life hereand it will be very difiicult to stop it.. Go and see the City of God abd see the interview of the head of the police after that movie.. He thinks that as long as the rich are corrupt the poor will follow and that the problem is the top class showng the exemple and as long as the top class is corrupt the rest will follow. know that is Brazil and not Mexco but bet you it is the same here.


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## AlanMexicali

PDF File:
"SECRETARIADO EJECUTIVO DEL SISTEMA NACIONAL DE SEGURIDAD PÃšBLICA
SUELDOS DE POLICÃÂ�AS ESTATALES Y MUNICIPALES

"Salaries of state and municipal police. Highest: of State Police. $ 18,672.00 pesos. Federal entity. Highest Salary Grade. Aguascalientes $ 25,622. Commander.




Dec 4 2018 Â· The highest paid state police salaries are those of Nuevo LeÃ³n. Agents receive 15 thousand pesos.

POLICE:
Utidad Federativa Sueldo Grado
Coahuila $8,615 PolicÃ*a
Colima $7,685 PolicÃ*a
Chihuahua $7,967 PolicÃ*a
Durango $9,000 PolicÃ*a
Guanajuato $8,257 PolicÃ*a
Guerrero $7,736 PolicÃ*a
MÃ©️xico $8,827 PolicÃ*a R-3
MichoacÃ¡n $8,508 PolicÃ*a
Nayarit $5,762 PolicÃ*a
Oaxaca $5,951 PolicÃ*a
Quintana Roo $4,894 PolicÃ*a
Sinaloa $8,652 PolicÃ*a 
Tabasco $6,271 PolicÃ*a
Tamaulipas $3,618 PolicÃ*a
YucatÃ¡n $7,625 PolicÃ*a"


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## elderp

To compare an average US police officer makes about $6000 to $7000 USD a month. The average Mexican executive salary is $2000 per month, $1250 is reasonable. As long as Mexican police officers are not paid a decent wage your going to get bad services. Not saying they are bad, but ask yourself when you were in Mexico did you ever expect a Mexican police officer to help you out? Most Mexicans don’t even bother reporting crimes because they know the police force is hopelessly underfunded.


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## Denmex

All the ideas and suggestions mentioned are great. Maybe if all of them could be inculcated into Mexican society within another generation things would be different (in a positive way). I can assure you there will not be a “quick-fix.” Current Mexican thinking is too deeply ingrained in the populace. When leaders of drug cartels are the heroes of the youth, and at times Madre’s and Padre’s, a country is in deep trouble.


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## GARYJ65

elderp said:


> The average salary for a Mexican Police man or woman is $350 USD per month. Until they are paid a decent wage you will have corruption. As long as there is corruption there is violence. Mexican police need to start making a living wage, like $1,250 USD a month and then it will get better.


American policemen are paid much more than that, and there is still corruption and violence with them


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## lat19n

I'm far from an expert, but I do read the local 'Police' page most mornings. Seems we have two primary areas of crime.

Used to be that the leaders of the drug cartels came here for vacations, holidays and such and partied. I am told everyone was happy. The leaders made sure that there was 'peace' and got along. Then politicians decided to crack down and arrested the leaders, leaving a lot of lower level/quality people to take their place. Since then there have been a lot of 'turf battles'. The result is pretty violent. At one point AMLO was running for election on the idea of amnesty (making peace) with the cartels. Personally I'd like to see that idea reconsidered. 

The other major area of crime are these attacks made on local businesses (big and small) for graft. I believe it is called 'floor'. The (armed) attacks occur at popular night clubs/restaurants, where there are sometimes tens of victims as well as local roadside juice stands. At one point there was talk of bringing in the new national guard to patrol some popular night life areas. I haven't heard much more about that lately. For the small stuff they were going to no longer allow 2 people on a motorcycle. Seems a lot of the graft involved a driver and an armed 'passenger'. Haven't heard much more about that lately either.


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## AlanMexicali

lat19n said:


> I'm far from an expert, but I do read the local 'Police' page most mornings. Seems we have two primary areas of crime.
> 
> Used to be that the leaders of the drug cartels came here for vacations, holidays and such and partied. I am told everyone was happy. The leaders made sure that there was 'peace' and got along. Then politicians decided to crack down and arrested the leaders, leaving a lot of lower level/quality people to take their place. Since then there have been a lot of 'turf battles'. The result is pretty violent. At one point AMLO was running for election on the idea of amnesty (making peace) with the cartels. Personally I'd like to see that idea reconsidered.
> 
> The other major area of crime are these attacks made on local businesses (big and small) for graft. I believe it is called 'floor'. The (armed) attacks occur at popular night clubs/restaurants, where there are sometimes tens of victims as well as local roadside juice stands. At one point there was talk of bringing in the new national guard to patrol some popular night life areas. I haven't heard much more about that lately. For the small stuff they were going to no longer allow 2 people on a motorcycle. Seems a lot of the graft involved a driver and an armed 'passenger'. Haven't heard much more about that lately either.



The movie "El Infierno" shows a different side of the common turf war senerio most main stream media claims to portray in that most/many killings within cartel members is more often than not related to one cartel (gang) kidnaps someone knowledgable of the operation of a rival gang close by and tortures them to find out where the money or drugs are. They take him there armed and in numbers, steal the money or drugs and leave everyone dead. Next that gang being robbed kidnaps ... It can on for years until they mostly perish or what is left join another gang etc. The word cartel sometimes means 30 to 60 gang members in a small isolated rural area close to the US border [in the movie El Infierno] or in large city neighborhood etc. not necessarly 600 to 2,000 or more organized crime operatives [ insert name of cartel and the leader here ] fighting over territory the main stream media presents most of the violence and murders are attributed to. I assume the large cartels do the same thing as the movie El Infierno portrays as well. Think about it - if they can not get all the money or drugs someone stole back why not wait until they all or most are partying together in a restaurant or house and kill them. That is a message to others who might try it. It also might get them killed by the ones remaining like in El Infierno. The movie ends with all dead but shows the son years later of the main character drive up in a pickup putting flowers in front of his murdered father's large septula with his own large vacant septula beside his father's already built. This is a portrait of this type of Macho culture ready to die but be a big shot for awhile like the famous song 25 years ago says: "I'd rather be a narco for 5 years than be a ranch hand for all the rest of my life." 

Musica Corrido seems to tell the story better than most media of what it is really like in those gangs. Not all turf wars but acts of revenge are the main motive behind many of the murders.

https://www.google.com/search?q=mus...ericamovil-mx&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8


"The carnage that characterizes drug lords in Mexico reaches their graves in a Sinaloa cemetery, where they lie surrounded by their most coveted objects such as weapons, jewels or trucks, in mausoleums of several floors, with artificial climate and some with area of parties.

Truck caravans with 'family and friends arrive in the evenings with bands and music, shoot bullets and stay until dawn. Here, even great artists have come to sing. '

The Jardines de Humaya pantheon was built in 1966 in Culiacán, capital of Sinaloa (northwest), cradle of the main Mexican drug traffickers, and is known because they contain the tombs of capos like Arturo Beltrán Leyva 'El Jefe de Bosos' and Ignacio 'Nacho Colonel', killed by soldiers in 2009 and 2010 respectively.

In the tombs, many with photos of young people, there are statues or images of San Judas Tadeo, Jesus Malverde or Santa Muerte, which make up the saints venerated by organized crime."

http://somosculto.blogspot.com/2014/07/las-tumbas-lujosas-de-los-capos.html?m=1


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## ojosazules11

lat19n said:


> ...
> The other major area of crime are these attacks made on local businesses (big and small) for graft. I believe it is called 'floor'.
> ...
> For the small stuff they were going to no longer allow 2 people on a motorcycle. Seems a lot of the graft involved a driver and an armed 'passenger'. Haven't heard much more about that lately either.


When you say “floor” I presume you mean “piso”. A more accurate description would be turf. “Pagar el derecho de piso” essentially means paying for the right to run your business, sell your tamales, etc. on a specific gang’s turf. There are many meanings of “piso” beyond floor. Interestingly, one of the meanings of “piso” traditionally was if an outsider courted a young woman in a village, he had to pay for a feast for the town’s young men. I also discovered that in Spain and some Latin American countries it means when a new employee treats their colleagues to a meal after their first payday at the new job. 

I hope you’re right about the proposed ban on more than one person on a motorcycle not being moved forward in Morelos. I love riding with my husband, and was worried I wouldn’t be allowed to anymore. Or I would have to learn to ride a motorcycle myself!


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## lat19n

ojosazules11 said:


> When you say “floor” I presume you mean “piso”. A more accurate description would be turf. “Pagar el derecho de piso” essentially means paying for the right to run your business, sell your tamales, etc. on a specific gang’s turf. There are many meanings of “piso” beyond floor. Interestingly, one of the meanings of “piso” traditionally was if an outsider courted a young woman in a village, he had to pay for a feast for the town’s young men. I also discovered that in Spain and some Latin American countries it means when a new employee treats their colleagues to a meal after their first payday at the new job.
> 
> I hope you’re right about the proposed ban on more than one person on a motorcycle not being moved forward in Morelos. I love riding with my husband, and was worried I wouldn’t be allowed to anymore. Or I would have to learn to ride a motorcycle myself!


Yes - 'cobro de piso'. And perhaps graft isn't the correct term, as that may imply someone trying to inflict political influence, where most times these 'charges' are more of an 'insurance' charge. I'm reminded of my childhood outside NYC where a certain ethnic group were often accused of torching businesses which did not pay their insurance.

Regarding motorcycles - there certainly seems to be such a preponderance of two-peopled motorcycles involved in these crimes. Personally I don't like how often the drivers wear helmets with blackened visors, or sometimes masks that you might find in a 'mad-max' movie. It is not at all unusual for a motorcycle to be pulled over for some infraction like expired tags only to find a gun. Something certainly needs to be done. I don't see myself as a 'scare-dy cat' but I do often look in my rear view mirror when driving home and if I see a suspect motorcycle I will slow to force them to pass. I am also very grateful that at the end of my journeys home I pull up to a very large imposing gate with security on the other side...


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## lat19n

ojos :

We took a little trip in the car earlier this morning. We encountered two police checkpoints - one in Cuatla, the other outside Santa Catarina. There was a decent sized police presence at both. What was interesting is they were only pulling over motorcycles (and they had stopped quite a few). Guess someone sees a need to take some action. If you and/or your husband head out on the bike make sure you have your credentials etc (and extra time). 

At one point we took a short impromptu diversion. I've attached a couple images. Can you guess where we were ? (It was rather impressive).


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## ojosazules11

lat19n said:


> ojos :
> 
> We took a little trip in the car earlier this morning. We encountered two police checkpoints - one in Cuatla, the other outside Santa Catarina. There was a decent sized police presence at both. What was interesting is they were only pulling over motorcycles (and they had stopped quite a few). Guess someone sees a need to take some action. If you and/or your husband head out on the bike make sure you have your credentials etc (and extra time).
> 
> At one point we took a short impromptu diversion. I've attached a couple images. Can you guess where we were ? (It was rather impressive).


Is that “Las Mañanitas”? I’ve heard it’s beautiful, but I’ve never been. There are so many stunning places hidden behind tall, stone walls. If not Mañanitas, please tell me where it is. 

Thanks for the heads up re checkpoints. Our most common destinations by motorcycle outside of Tepoztlán are Yautepec and Santa Catarina. We probably won’t be back until January, but if heading out on the moto, I’ll remember to take some form of ID, which I don’t always do as the passenger. I do understand the rationale of banning passengers given the ease of committing crimes from motorcycles. Apparently in Colombia there is a ban on passengers on motos for the same reason. In Guatemala for several years there was a law requiring anyone on a motorcycle to wear a vest and helmet with their registration number (in very large font) so that they could be identified if committing a crime. If someone was on a motorcycle without that, they would be apprehended. It did apparently significantly reduce this particular form of crime. I’m not sure if they still have the same law, but it makes sense. As an aside, part of Guatemala is currently under an official “state of siege”. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-guatemala-congress/guatemalan-congress-approves-controversial-state-of-siege-declaration-idUSKCN1VS0RK


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## ojosazules11

lat19n said:


> ojos :
> 
> We took a little trip in the car earlier this morning. We encountered two police checkpoints - one in Cuatla, the other outside Santa Catarina. There was a decent sized police presence at both. What was interesting is they were only pulling over motorcycles (and they had stopped quite a few). Guess someone sees a need to take some action. If you and/or your husband head out on the bike make sure you have your credentials etc (and extra time).
> 
> At one point we took a short impromptu diversion. I've attached a couple images. Can you guess where we were ? (It was rather impressive).


Or is it one of the Haciendas / Ex-Haciendas near Cuautla? I did not pay attention to your hint about the checkpoint near Cuautla!


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## lat19n

ojosazules11 said:


> Or is it one of the Haciendas / Ex-Haciendas near Cuautla? I did not pay attention to your hint about the checkpoint near Cuautla!


You win the challenge ! It is the Hacienda de Cocoyoc - which we have passed by many times but never gone in. To be honest the buildings seemed a little 'aged' but the grounds were spectacular. Maybe the best we have seen yet.

Regarding Guatemala - I spent some time there in the 70/80's - until I was deported for the second time. Back then there was armed military on the roof tops downtown. The army (as it was) used the airport runway for marching drills. When I was in San Salvador (El Salvador) I had to snake my way around town looking for a path without encountering TANKS ! Police checkpoints just don't quite match up...


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## ojosazules11

lat19n said:


> You win the challenge ! It is the Hacienda de Cocoyoc - which we have passed by many times but never gone in. To be honest the buildings seemed a little 'aged' but the grounds were spectacular. Maybe the best we have seen yet.
> 
> Regarding Guatemala - I spent some time there in the 70/80's - until I was deported for the second time. Back then there was armed military on the roof tops downtown. The army (as it was) used the airport runway for marching drills. When I was in San Salvador (El Salvador) I had to snake my way around town looking for a path without encountering TANKS ! Police checkpoints just don't quite match up...


The Hacienda looks lovely! We often pass that way as well. Oaxtepec is where we frequently take family/friends for swimming. We’ll have to check out this place. 

I have my own share of Guatemala stories... Once when I was still fresh-faced and innocent in my early 20’s, I needed to exchange money. An indigenous woman was on the corner, soliciting likely prospects for money exchange. She looked nice, so I followed her into a building and up a flight of stairs. She then handed me over to a stocky, unsmiling man who did not look nearly so nice. He took me up a few more flights of stairs, then into a large office with a man reminiscent of the Godfather sitting behind an ostentatious desk, with various thuggish-looking men with machine guns posted around the room. He did exchange my money, and off I went, determined to use the bank next time!


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## Bobbyb

I gave up reading most of this thread. Anyone who thinks crime will be reduced is dreaming. With AMLO it is at all time highs. But AMLO claims he has eliminated corruption and most crime. It is so bad that AMLO had to let El Chapos son go free to protect the public!! None of us will live long enough to see crime reduced!


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## citlali

Some rules have been changed to prevent bureaucrats and the usual blood suckers to profit but nothng has changed... I know as I am close to artisans and I see what is happening to the money that is supposed to go to them.. it is the samo samo..diferents rules that are immediately gone around.. the usualsuspects get the money...


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## RVGRINGO

I smell another troll.


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## Isla Verde

RVGRINGO said:


> I smell another troll.


Tundra Green and I are on the case!


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## kphoger

I'm fairly new to this forum. But is it really acceptable to necro-post a thread that had been dead for more than two years in order to make an off-topic post about religion? I guess I don't have a good feel yet for the moderation philosophy around here...


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