# Dual Citizenship



## Mexicodrifter (Sep 11, 2011)

I have some concerns about the duel citizenship. I spoke with the American Embassy, some time ago, and they told me that although the U.S. does not confiscate your American passport as of yet, it is not really legal. It seems that the old law, a citizen of the U.S. relinquishes his rights when he or she obtains a new citizenship, can still apply if they see fit to do so.

Every time I receive an inquiry from the SS Admin, there are questions as to change of citizenship.

Not wanting to ever lose those rights I have shied away from applying for Duel.




Does anyone have an update to this?


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## maesonna (Jun 10, 2008)

It must have been a while since you asked. Both Mexico and US now allow dual nationality. Check this search: united states dual citizenship - Google Search

As for Mexico, it didn't use to allow dual nationality, but since 1998 it does. This change was supposed to be so that people born as Mexicans, who had to give up Mexican nationality to become citizens of another country, could regain their Mexican nationality. However, foreigners can also take advantage of the change to get Mexican nationality (not citizenship) without losing their other citizenship.


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## WarrenJ (Aug 15, 2010)

*US State Department Services Dual Nationality*

I'm not so sure I would get dual nationality !!

US State Department Services Dual Nationality


The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy.Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice. For example, a child born in a foreign country to U.S. citizen parents may be both a U.S. citizen and a citizen of the country of birth.

A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.

Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct.The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist citizens abroad. The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person's allegiance.

However, dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country. They are required to obey the laws of both countries. Either country has the right to enforce its laws, particularly if the person later travels there.Most U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. citizenship.Most countries permit a person to renounce or otherwise lose citizenship.

Information on losing foreign citizenship can be obtained from the foreign country's embassy and consulates in the United States. Americans can renounce U.S. citizenship in the proper form at U.S. embassies and consulates abroad.


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

WarrenJ said:


> I'm not so sure I would get dual nationality !!


That's a whole lota facts, Warren, but it's missing your reasons not to get a dual nationality.


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## kazslo (Jun 7, 2010)

And a less US gov't propoganda-y version:



WarrenJ said:


> U.S. law does not ... require a person to choose one citizenship or another.





WarrenJ said:


> Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it *may* lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and *with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.*
> 
> *Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct.*


Although I don't have experience doing so, its been a well understood fact that you need to formally renounce your citizenship in front of an embassy officer in order to loose citizenship.



WarrenJ said:


> Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. citizenship.





WarrenJ said:


> Americans can renounce U.S. citizenship in the proper form at U.S. embassies and consulates abroad.


I can only see 2 negatives to having dual citizenship with any 2 countries: Loss of Consular Protection and Tax Implications. As a citizen of another country, you won't be protected legally by the US while you are in that country. Although, if you get citizenship in another country, chances are that you are comfortable enough there that you won't need that US protection. Tax implications are another concern - you may owe different taxes in your country of new citizenship in addition to your IRS requirements. Does anyone know the answer to how the former applies to Mexico - are there different tax implications on citizens vs inmigrados?


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## kazslo (Jun 7, 2010)

Mexicodrifter said:


> Every time I receive an inquiry from the SS Admin, there are questions as to change of citizenship.
> 
> Not wanting to ever lose those rights I have shied away from applying for Duel.


As long as you are still an American, you still have all of your American rights, perks, and irs liabilities. Think of it as an addition of citizenship vs a change.


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## maesonna (Jun 10, 2008)

I have inmigrado status and pay Mexican taxes, and I'm quite sure that there is no difference between my tax obligations and those of a Mexican national. There is nothing in my tax assessments that is dependent or adjusted for my not having Mexican nationality.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

maesonna said:


> I have inmigrado status and pay Mexican taxes, and I'm quite sure that there is no difference between my tax obligations and those of a Mexican national. There is nothing in my tax assessments that is dependent or adjusted for my not having Mexican nationality.


Foreigners in Mexico are liable for taxes just like citizens. The only difference that I am aware of is that foreigners (I have an inmigrante visa) are not eligible for the 50% reduction in property taxes that local senior citizens get. Same for water (and maybe CFE). Local tercera edads* get a reduction. They wouldn't give it to me.

*Tercera Edad = third age and means senior citizen, also referred to as adultos mayores


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

Mexicodrifter said:


> Every time I receive an inquiry from the SS Admin, there are questions as to change of citizenship.


If you have told SS that your address is NOT in the USA, they will send you a form every year. It has to be filled out, signed, and returned. If not, SS can stop your benefits.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

joaquinx said:


> If you have told SS that your address is NOT in the USA, they will send you a form every year. It has to be filled out, signed, and returned. If not, SS can stop your benefits.


I wondered why I've never received one of those notices, but now I see it's because I still use my mother's address in the US as my own. Thanks for the info!


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## Mark1 (Jun 12, 2010)

*3'rd Country Chooses*

My understanding is that dual citizenship can put a traveler in a less advantagous position while traveling in a 3'rd country. To illustrate, suppose:
- an American
- acquires dual citizenship in Belize
- and then travels to Canada.

In Canada, our American 'A' is an alien. As such, Canada is obliged to notify A's consular official if they arrest A. Who does Canada notify? No one? Everyone? Or, the country that Canada chooses to notify? (You can probably guess the answer). 

So, suppose Canada doesn't get along with America. Lots of conflicts. Canada would prefer not to have yet one more issue to argue about with America. If Canada should have reason to beleive that A is a citizen of Belize, Canada can meet it's obligation to notify A's consular official by contacting the consulate of Belize. You can be sure that Canada will deal with Belize with the utmost consideration. Whether that gets you anywhere, or not, is anyone's guess.

None of this is much a problem if you happen to be in a relatively civilized country C such as Canada. However, if you are in a less civilized country - say, Cameroon - well, let's say that Belize's consul general isn't going to receive the same consideration as would the American assistant consul.

So, anyone considering dual-citizenship ought to consider 4 things:

1. - how desireable/undesireable is my current sole citizenship?
2. - how desireable/undesireable is my prospective country of citizenship?
3. - could I successfully conceal my less-desireable citizenship?
4. - where might I be traveling and get into trouble?

If you are already a citizen of Switzerland or Canada, then you probably can't get into a better position by acquiring citizenship in a 2'nd country. America is a good place to have citizenship; however, America has lots of enemies and that might work against you depending upon where you travel and get into trouble. 

If you have a prospect of getting citizenship in a great country such as Switzerland, Canada, or even America, then go for it. You can try to pass as Swiss/Canadian/American and not a citizen of - let's say Isreal. When push comes to shove, can you pass as being a sole citizen of your 2'nd country? Or, will your less desireable citizenship ultimately be discovered? If that less desireable citizenship is going to be discovered then your acquired citizenship probably isn't going to improve your situation.

Where you travel determines where you might get into trouble. If in the middle east, you need to avoid Israli citizenship. If in Japan you would probably prefer to avoid being identified as Korean. If you travel only in relatively civilized countries then a second citizenship probably isn't going to undermine your situation much. 

Each individual needs to consider his entire package of consideration. 

I have a relative who was born of 2 Mexican parents in Isreal. So, she has 2 citizenships. Imagine she grows up and gets a job in an international oil company; suppose she needs to travel in the Middle East. She would be well advised to carry a Mexican passport; preferably, one that specifies her place-of-birth as Mexico. 

The consideration discussed above is just one consideration; and, in most cases, isn't controlling; it's probably not going to be a consideration for my relative - but, that remains to be seen. Because this consideration is pretty obscure and just might apply to some readers, I thought I should point it out.

Mark


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## curiosa (Feb 23, 2011)

I have dual citizenship between the US and Mexico and for me, I see it as an advantage. I get the best of both worlds.

There are pro's and con's, of course, so just make sure you are well informed.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

curiosa said:


> I have dual citizenship between the US and Mexico and for me, I see it as an advantage. I get the best of both worlds.
> 
> There are pro's and con's, of course, so just make sure you are well informed.


I hope someday to hold dual US and Mexican citizenship. I have a good idea of what the pro's would be. From your experience, what are the con's?


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Isla Verde said:


> I hope someday to hold dual US and Mexican citizenship. I have a good idea of what the pro's would be. From your experience, what are the con's?


Two that come to mind immediately:
With Mexican citizenship, you are no longer treated as a US citizen when you are in Mexico. In the rest of the world you remain a US citizen with access to help from the various consulates and embassies around the world, but in Mexico the US embassy will not be available to you.
Secondly, I am neither a lawyer nor an accountant but I believe Mexico, like the US, taxes all of the income of its citizens where ever in the world it is earned. So I believe that any US income you have will be liable for Mexican taxes. There may be credits for taxes paid elsewhere (like in the US), so I have no idea how significant this might be.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> Two that come to mind immediately:
> With Mexican citizenship, you are no longer treated as a US citizen when you are in Mexico. In the rest of the world you remain a US citizen with access to help from the various consulates and embassies around the world, but in Mexico the US embassy will not be available to you.
> Secondly, I am neither a lawyer nor an accountant but I believe Mexico, like the US, taxes all of the income of its citizens where ever in the world it is earned. So I believe that any US income you have will be liable for Mexican taxes. There may be credits for taxes paid elsewhere (like in the US), so I have no idea how significant this might be.


After four years of living in Mexico, I have had no need to ask the US Embassy for help and can't foresee why I would in the future, though, of course, one never knows . . . 

My only US income comes in the shape of two small pensions. Could the Mexican government require me to pay taxes on them? I have no idea.

In any event, it will be several years before I'd be eligible to apply for Mexican citizenship, so I have plenty of time to research the points you've mentioned.

Thanks for your reply.


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## ABCinATL (Jun 19, 2010)

TundraGreen said:


> Two that come to mind immediately:
> With Mexican citizenship, you are no longer treated as a US citizen when you are in Mexico. In the rest of the world you remain a US citizen with access to help from the various consulates and embassies around the world, but in Mexico the US embassy will not be available to you.
> Secondly, I am neither a lawyer nor an accountant but I believe Mexico, like the US, taxes all of the income of its citizens where ever in the world it is earned. So I believe that any US income you have will be liable for Mexican taxes. There may be credits for taxes paid elsewhere (like in the US), so I have no idea how significant this might be.


How would the US embassy NOT be available to help you? This is the first I have ever heard of this. 

I always operated under the assumption that if I ever needed help - regardless of if I have gotten Mexican citizenship or not - that the Embassy could help me as I was born in the USA and have my citizenship. This is a little disheartening!

Please elaborate if you can. 

Does this same thing apply to any country - example, you are American but also acquire citizenship in Canada...does that mean if you are in Canada and need help the US Embassy in Canada would not help you? Or is this just a Mexican thing?

Thanks!


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

This applies to every country in the world. It is just protocol that one nation does not intefere in the relationship between another nation and one of its nationals.


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## ABCinATL (Jun 19, 2010)

rifleman said:


> This applies to every country in the world. It is just protocol that one nation does not intefere in the relationship between another nation and one of its nationals.


I guess that makes sense. So as long as I stay on for example an FM3 visa the US would help correct?


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## ABCinATL (Jun 19, 2010)

PS I am NOT planning on needing these services but it just feels reassuring to know they are there if I need them. Guess if I am confident enough to get Mexican citizenship I should be confident enough to not need the us embassy, but you never know, weird things happen here sometimes!


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

I have no idea what an FM3 visa is. If you have dual US/Canadian nationality the US will not provide consular support when you are in Canada and Canada will not provide consular support when you are in the US. Should you require consular support anywhere else then you could turn to either or even both.


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

As an example, I have both an US passport and a Mexican passport. I am a citizen of both countries. I enter Mexico by showing my Mexican passport. Then I have some problems involving something in or of the US and I head for the US embassy. I slap my US passport on the table and, from what I read above, no one will help me. As a matter of fact, they will show me the door and boot me out. Right?


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

joaquinx said:


> As an example, I have both an US passport and a Mexican passport. I am a citizen of both countries. I enter Mexico by showing my Mexican passport. Then I have some problems involving something in or of the US and I head for the US embassy. I slap my US passport on the table and, from what I read above, no one will help me. As a matter of fact, they will show me the door and boot me out. Right?


I don't know about the legalities involved, but if you went to the US Embassy with your US passport and didn't mention that you also had a Mexican passport, how would they know?


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## rifleman (Jun 24, 2011)

It isn't that simple. What they won't do is intefere in the relationship between you and the other state. An obvious example would be if Mexico brings in national service and you get called up the US will not help you. Or suppose the US and Mexico have some easy extradition agreement in regards to getting their own citizens back, you would be easy to extradite.


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## TundraGreen (Jul 15, 2010)

Isla Verde said:


> I don't know about the legalities involved, but if you went to the US Embassy with your US passport and didn't mention that you also had a Mexican passport, how would they know?


Or, if you are arrested and held in jail. The US State Department can intervene with the Mexican government on behalf of its citizens, not necessarily successfully, but they can try. If you also hold Mexican citizenship, you are on your own.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

TundraGreen said:


> Or, if you are arrested and held in jail. The US State Department can intervene with the Mexican government on behalf of its citizens, not necessarily successfully, but they can try. If you also hold Mexican citizenship, you are on your own.


If I were arrested and showed the Mexican authorities my US passport, they would also ask to see my Mexican tourist or residence visa. In that case, I would have to show them my Mexican passport and that would be that.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

Naturalized citizens are not eligible for military service or to hold elected office.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

RVGRINGO said:


> Naturalized citizens are not eligible for military service or to hold elected office.


That's true, but they can vote.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

*Green card holders in the US Military*



RVGRINGO said:


> Naturalized citizens are not eligible for military service or to hold elected office.


I saw a swearing in ceremony for Naturalized Citizenship on the TV news this week and they interviews a man in a Marine's uniform who was part of it.

I found this:

Becoming a Citizen in the U.S. Military


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

AlanMexicali said:


> I saw a swearing in ceremony for Naturalized Citizenship on the TV news this week and they interviews a man in a Marine's uniform who was part of it.
> 
> I found this:
> 
> Becoming a Citizen in the U.S. Military


No doubt, in his post RVGRINGO meant to say that naturalized citizens in Mexico are not eligible for military service.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

*OK*



Isla Verde said:


> No doubt, in his post RVGRINGO meant to say that naturalized citizens in Mexico are not eligible for military service.




OK that makes sense then.


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## cscscs007 (Jan 8, 2011)

It is my understanding when I am in the USA I must declare myself as a citizen of the US and follow all the laws. Once I enter Mexico I must declare my Mexican nationality/citizenship and follow all mexican laws. Most evryone I know uses a mexican passport to enter into Mexico and a USA passport to enter the USA. However, if a person who is a citizen of both countries and enters Mexico and gets a FMM visa they declare they are a citizen of the USA which would create a problem later if they try to once again declare mexican citizenship since they did not comply with Mexico law regarding dual citizenship.
Honestly, I don't see the big issue here. Having dual citizenship in both countries allows a person to travel freely between both countries with no issues as long as one declares his or her citizenship to that country upon entry. As far as taxes go in Mexico they are far less than in the US. 
If you have an issue with breaking the law then I would suggest you forget this whole dual citizenship idea, but as for me I don't worry about breaking the law because I have no desire to do so, and it would be really stupid of me to get citizenship for both countries to further a criminal lifestyle. 
By the way the US can revoke one's citizenship if they can prove it was obtained by fraud, and a mexican national comeing to the US to further his illegal activities are grounds for revocation of citizenship. I imagine it would be the same in Mexico, the only difference is Mexico has far less red tape to go through to remove someone than the US. 
As for all of us who desire dual citizenship between both countries I can only see that the advantages are far greater than the disadvantages.


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## pappabee (Jun 22, 2010)

cscscs007 said:


> It is my understanding when I am in the USA I must declare myself as a citizen of the US and follow all the laws. Once I enter Mexico I must declare my Mexican nationality/citizenship and follow all mexican laws. Most evryone I know uses a mexican passport to enter into Mexico and a USA passport to enter the USA. However, if a person who is a citizen of both countries and enters Mexico and gets a FMM visa they declare they are a citizen of the USA which would create a problem later if they try to once again declare mexican citizenship since they did not comply with Mexico law regarding dual citizenship.
> Honestly, I don't see the big issue here. Having dual citizenship in both countries allows a person to travel freely between both countries with no issues as long as one declares his or her citizenship to that country upon entry. As far as taxes go in Mexico they are far less than in the US.
> If you have an issue with breaking the law then I would suggest you forget this whole dual citizenship idea, but as for me I don't worry about breaking the law because I have no desire to do so, and it would be really stupid of me to get citizenship for both countries to further a criminal lifestyle.
> By the way the US can revoke one's citizenship if they can prove it was obtained by fraud, and a mexican national comeing to the US to further his illegal activities are grounds for revocation of citizenship. I imagine it would be the same in Mexico, the only difference is Mexico has far less red tape to go through to remove someone than the US.
> As for all of us who desire dual citizenship between both countries I can only see that the advantages are far greater than the disadvantages.


The bottom line is that if you want to hold dual citizenship and can qualify then do so. There are drawbacks to having or not having it. The biggest one for Americans in Mexico is that if you have a run in with the authorities (even just an auto accident) and end up in jail the US Embassy can do almost nothing to help you because you entered as a Mexican Citizen. Neither country keep records as to how many dual citizen they have so there are no good statistics. One estimate is that there are between 500,000 and 5 million duel citizenships residing in the US. That's a very wide spread. We do know that 93 countries allow dual citizenships. 

I must admit that most of the people I know both in the US and here do not have dual citizenships. But again, my suggestion is to learn both the positives and the negatives of dual citizenship and then make your choice.:ranger:


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

_. . .end up in jail the US Embassy can do almost nothing to help you. . . ._

As an American citizen, the US embassy can do only two things for you. One is to assure that you are being treated humanely and the other is to give you a list of Mexican lawyers.


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

If you are a Mexican, dual citizen, the US cannot and will not do anything for you.


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## pappabee (Jun 22, 2010)

RVGRINGO said:


> If you are a Mexican, dual citizen, the US cannot and will not do anything for you.


That's the point. If you enter Mexico as a Mexican citizen then the US can not and will not even consider you as a US citizen. In effect you have given up your US citizenship for the duration of your stay in Mexico.


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## Detailman (Aug 27, 2011)

pappabee said:


> That's the point. If you enter Mexico as a Mexican citizen then the US can not and will not even consider you as a US citizen. In effect you have given up your US citizenship for the duration of your stay in Mexico.


There were two well documented cases of Canadians being held in prison for lengthy periods (one was a woman held in the Guadalajara prison for about two years) despite the fact that all other parties to the cases swore out affidavits that they were innocent and knew nothing about the criminal elements of the case.

It was only on the basis of the Canadian government’s involvement that they were finally released. If they had held dual citizenship I am sure they would still be in prison to this day.


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## pappabee (Jun 22, 2010)

Detailman said:


> There were two well documented cases of Canadians being held in prison for lengthy periods (one was a woman held in the Guadalajara prison for about two years) despite the fact that all other parties to the cases swore out affidavits that they were innocent and knew nothing about the criminal elements of the case.
> 
> It was only on the basis of the Canadian government’s involvement that they were finally released. If they had held dual citizenship I am sure they would still be in prison to this day.


Not absolutely true. It all depends on how they entered Mexico. If they entered on their Mexican citizenship documents then you could be correct. But, if they entered on their Canadian documents then they should have had the Canadian governments involvement. Again. that's one of the problems with the dual citizenship. You take the easy way in and use your Mexican Passport and then get into trouble (your fault or not) then your other government will be unable to do a thing to help. (they would be infringing on the rights of another country's citizen).


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## pappabee (Jun 22, 2010)

Hey everybody,

Don't you think we've chewed this up enough? We seem to be saying the same thing in many different ways.


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

pappabee said:


> That's the point. If you enter Mexico as a Mexican citizen then the US can not and will not even consider you as a US citizen. In effect you have given up your US citizenship for the duration of your stay in Mexico.


This is debatable. See the follow page from US Immigrationus-immigration » Blog Archive » Learn How US Dual Citizenship Works


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## Detailman (Aug 27, 2011)

pappabee said:


> Not absolutely true. It all depends on how they entered Mexico. If they entered on their Mexican citizenship documents then you could be correct. But, if they entered on their Canadian documents then they should have had the Canadian governments involvement. Again. that's one of the problems with the dual citizenship. You take the easy way in and use your Mexican Passport and then get into trouble (your fault or not) then your other government will be unable to do a thing to help. (they would be infringing on the rights of another country's citizen).


Sorry Pappabee. My fault. I did not clarify that in both instances they did not hold dual citizenship. They both held only Canadian citizenship. My point was that despite not holding dual citizenship, it 'still' took them several years to get out of prison. (Even with single citizenship it can take a long time to rectify a problem.) 

I followed both accounts in our local newspapers with one of the parties being from the Vancouver area.

Different subject. I have a scenario that I wonder about but think it would be more appropriate for a separate thread. (It deals with car accidents and proving innocence.) How does one start a new thread?


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## pappabee (Jun 22, 2010)

Detailman said:


> Sorry Pappabee. My fault. I did not clarify that in both instances they did not hold dual citizenship. They both held only Canadian citizenship. My point was that despite not holding dual citizenship, it 'still' took them several years to get out of prison. (Even with single citizenship it can take a long time to rectify a problem.)
> 
> I followed both accounts in our local newspapers with one of the parties being from the Vancouver area.
> 
> Different subject. I have a scenario that I wonder about but think it would be more appropriate for a separate thread. (It deals with car accidents and proving innocence.) How does one start a new thread?


From the main page look in the upper left hand corneer and you'll find "NEW THREAD"


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## RVGRINGO (May 16, 2007)

One last point: If you hold dual citizenship, you may not choose which passport to use when entering either country. You must use the appropriate one for the country you are entering. To do otherwise, would be a violation of immigration laws and, with today's computers, you would quickly be in deep trouble.


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