# moving back to UK



## return (Aug 14, 2013)

I wish to return to The UK with my USA born 2 children and then my wife join me later when I have a confirmed job, while she continues her job in The USA. Do my children need UK passports?
Any help in this matter gratefully appreciated.


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## Davis1 (Feb 20, 2009)

return said:


> I wish to return to The UK with my USA born 2 children and then my wife join me later when I have a confirmed job, while she continues her job in The USA. Do my children need UK passports?
> Any help in this matter gratefully appreciated.


yes
or they only get to stay for a vacation


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

It's a fine point, but actually they would need _documented U.K. citizenship_ to be precise -- or some other legal right to stay in the U.K. Technically, the U.K. allows its citizens to enter the U.K. on another passport as long as that passport is valid for entry. It's perhaps "bad form," but it's legal.


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## return (Aug 14, 2013)

So does that mean that I should register the birth and try and pay for a certificate then the children could arrive on a USA passport and be fine at the UK Border?


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## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

return said:


> So does that mean that I should register the birth and try and pay for a certificate then the children could arrive on a USA passport and be fine at the UK Border?


US citizens are required by US law to enter and leave the US on a US passport. You may want to post your question about the UK side on the UK forum.


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

return said:


> So does that mean that I should register the birth and try and pay for a certificate then the children could arrive on a USA passport and be fine at the UK Border?


You definitely have to get the children documented as U.K. citizens, because that gives them the right to stay in the U.K. (I assume they are U.K. citizens.) That'll also have to get done in order for them to "operate" as U.K. citizens in the U.K.

How they _travel_ to the U.K. is then a separate question. Yes, they could enter the U.K. with U.S. passports. The U.K. is different than the U.S. in that respect. (As Twostep notes, the U.S. requires all its citizens to enter the U.S. using a U.S. passport or, if applicable for the itinerary, a U.S. passport card.) Even though it's permitted, I do not recommend that they use U.S. passports to enter the U.K. I recommend you get them U.K. passports.

Why? At least a few reasons:

1. With U.K. passports they can use the much shorter and faster EU/EEA/Swiss immigration lines.

2. If they attempt to depart the U.K. with their U.S. passports they'll likely have a problem if they've stayed more than 6 months. That problem would be _fairly_ quickly resolved if they can produce documentation that they are U.K. citizens (i.e. U.K. civil records), but there will be some delay while that documentation is checked -- delay on top of the longer/slower non-EU/EEA/Swiss immigration line.

3. They'll have the same potential complications with travel in Europe if they ever do that.

4. There are potential Hague Convention (on the Abduction of Children) complications which are easier to navigate if they have the "right" passports.

Why do you ask?


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## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

BBCWatcher - You brought a good point up. OP needs a written statement from the mother to take the children out of the US. Unless they travel with their UK passport they are considered tourists until proven otherwise - no access to the UK system from medical to who knows what.


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## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

return said:


> So does that mean that I should register the birth and try and pay for a certificate then the children could arrive on a USA passport and be fine at the UK Border?


No - they need UK passports.


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## return (Aug 14, 2013)

I ask because we are planning on moving to The UK. Mywife is staying because she cannot work in UK until I show 6 months worth of payslips. She wants to earn money in The USA so that we can use that income in The UK when we all come together again.
It is The UK immigration law that has created these extreme conditions for families wishing to relocate.
So do I need to have an official letter giving her permission as well?


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## return (Aug 14, 2013)

I have heard that you have to leave one country and arrive in another using the same passport.
Would the USA authorities have a problem with my children leaving on a UK passport after living here all their young lives or would I just show them USA and UK passports to prove they have dual citizenship.

Then when I arrive in The Uk I show UK authorities both passports or jus the UK passport?
This is very confusing.


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

return said:


> I have heard that you have to leave one country and arrive in another using the same passport.


What you heard is incorrect.



> Would the USA authorities have a problem with my children leaving on a UK passport after living here all their young lives or would I just show them USA and UK passports to prove they have dual citizenship.


You and your children wouldn't show anything to U.S. CBP. The U.S. has no passport control when exiting the U.S.



> Then when I arrive in The Uk I show UK authorities both passports or jus the UK passport? This is very confusing.


Then think for a moment. Why would any U.K. citizen ever show _both_ a U.K. and a non-U.K. passport to U.K. passport control? That makes no sense at all. A U.K. citizen is a U.K. citizen, and his/her possession of some other citizenship is irrelevant to the U.K. (or at least none of the U.K.'s business).


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

return said:


> So do I need to have an official letter giving her permission as well?


Do to concerns about international child abductions the airline and/or immigration authorities often require both parents' permission when taking children under age 16 across international borders. The U.S. enforces that restriction when issuing its passports since there is no U.S. passport control when exiting the U.S. The airline will want reasonable assurance the immigration authorities (U.K. in this case) will not have any problems admitting all passengers. U.K. passports work really well for that, though check to see if there's any additional requirement. A typical requirement if it exists is to carry a recent notarized letter from the other parent giving permission for the trip. Even if not required it wouldn't hurt to have one.


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## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

BBCWatcher said:


> .
> 
> 
> You and your children wouldn't show anything to U.S. CBP. The U.S. has no passport control when exiting the U.S.


Every exit and entry is recorded! Passports get swiped at check in, the data is shared with INS in real time.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

twostep said:


> Every exit and entry is recorded! Passports get swiped at check in, the data is shared with INS in real time.


In the OP's case, however, it's worthwhile to consider how to play the situation. When I leave the US, I use my US passport, simply to avoid "the discussion" of why there is no visa/VWP in my French passport. 

For the kids, it would probably be simplest to exit the US on their US passports, because that way there's no attempt to match up their departure with when they entered the country. (And there's no passport control the way the kids entered the US, as far as I know. )

On entry to the UK, again, you avoid having to "change status" after arrival if you use the kids' UK passports.

Keep it all as simple for the bureaucrats as possible - at least that's my motto!
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

twostep said:


> Every exit and entry is recorded! Passports get swiped at check in, the data is shared with INS in real time.


Twostep, there's no INS any more. There's USCIS, but the agency which you're probably thinking of is U.S. Customs and Border Protection which is within the Department of Homeland Security.

The U.S. does not have passport control at exit. Let me repeat that: the U.S. does not have passport control at exit. For example, if you cross into Canada via a land border nobody in the U.S. is swiping your passport because there is nobody even stopping you at the border until you enter Canada.

Yes, the U.S. has data sharing and data collection. That is not passport control. Moreover, the data collection is limited. For example, it's perfectly legal to buy a boat, hop aboard, and set sail, leaving the U.S. without ever talking with anyone at U.S. CBP and without CBP collecting any data about that event. Same thing with other types of vessels, such as private aircraft. There's no U.S. exit barrier.

Some people are under the mistaken impression the airline is acting as U.S. passport control when you check in for an international flight departing the U.S. No. The airline might share data with DHS, but you are not required to show the same passport that you used to enter the U.S. to the airline check-in agent when you depart. Indeed you usually don't if you have two passports. Airlines always care about your ability to enter the country where you will be arriving, so the passport associated with your entry into the destination country is the one you should be showing. For example, let's suppose you're taking a flight from New York to London. Your return flight is scheduled for 7 months from now. Should you show your U.K. (or other EU) passport if you have one? Absolutely. That's the one and only one passport you should show. U.S. citizens cannot stay in the U.K. longer than 6 months without a visa, but EU citizens can.


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## return (Aug 14, 2013)

Thanks for the info BBC watcher. I'll follow that procedure.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

> Should you show your U.K. (or other EU) passport if you have one? Absolutely. That's the one and only one passport you should show. U.S. citizens cannot stay in the U.K. longer than 6 months without a visa, but EU citizens can.


Haven't found that to be the case when I've flown back and form between Europe and the US. On leaving the US, I use my US passport. If I were to use my French passport, I think the airline people might expect to see some form of visa or VWP indication in the passport. They have never expressed any interest in what my status is for flying to France, even though I'm flying on a "one way" ticket with no visa for France in my passport. Once I get past the airline check-in post, I flash my French passport all the way cause I find I get better treatment on the flight and the lines at immigration at CDG are considerably shorter.

I suppose things may have changed with the implementation of ESTA. Used to be for those on a VWP, the airline was responsible for pulling out the little stub from your entry form so they could show that you left the country when you were supposed to. (Or not.) But these days, I guess it doesn't really matter.
Cheers,
Bev


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## MarylandNed (May 11, 2010)

return said:


> I have heard that you have to leave one country and arrive in another using the same passport.
> Would the USA authorities have a problem with my children leaving on a UK passport after living here all their young lives or would I just show them USA and UK passports to prove they have dual citizenship.
> 
> Then when I arrive in The Uk I show UK authorities both passports or jus the UK passport?
> This is very confusing.


US citizens must leave/enter the US on US passports by US law. So, legally speaking, the kids need to leave on US passports. Once you get to the UK, you don't necessarily have to enter on the same passport you used to leave the US. 

Note that moving back is not the same as visiting - it's perfectly acceptable for UK citizens to visit the UK on non-UK passports but they do prefer that you use UK passports if you a UK citizen who is moving to the UK to live. It is however possible to move back without UK passports.

A few years back, I moved back to the UK from Canada with my Canadian born kids. At the time, the kids only had Canadian passports. We had enough other documentation with us to prove that they were also UK citizens (e.g. full birth certs for parents and kids, parents' UK passports). However, the move back would have gone a bit smoother if the kids had had UK passports. 

Even if you are a UK citizen who enters the UK on a non-UK passport (i.e. as a "visitor") that status means very little once you exit the airport. UK citizens have the right to live in the UK and can't be deported. However, it would be advisable to obtain a UK passport in the UK asap because of the need to prove UK citizenship for various reasons (e.g. there would be some questions the next time you tried to leave the UK on the non-UK passport if you had "overstayed" in your "visitor" capacity).


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## MarylandNed (May 11, 2010)

Bevdeforges said:


> In the OP's case, however, it's worthwhile to consider how to play the situation. When I leave the US, I use my US passport, simply to avoid "the discussion" of why there is no visa/VWP in my French passport.
> 
> For the kids, it would probably be simplest to exit the US on their US passports, because that way there's no attempt to match up their departure with when they entered the country. (And there's no passport control the way the kids entered the US, as far as I know. )
> 
> ...


You don't "change status" after arrival. Visitor status means nothing for UK citizens once they exit the airport as they have the right to live in the UK and can't be deported. The only issue they would face is the ability to PROVE their UK citizenship and that can be done within the UK by simply obtaining a UK passport (it's also much cheaper to obtain the UK passport in the UK). Having a UK passport also means not being asked awkward questions about a possible "overstay" if they used the US passports to exit the UK later.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

MarylandNed said:


> US citizens must leave/enter the US on US passports by US law. So, legally speaking, the kids need to leave on US passports. Once you get to the UK, you don't necessarily have to enter on the same passport you used to leave the US.


As far as I know there is no requirement to leave the US on a US passport if you are a US citizen. As BBCWatcher has pointed out, there is no formal passport control on departure from the US - other than the airline's review of your documents at check-in.

There are actually fines that can be levied if you try to enter the US on another passport when you are a US citizen, but enforcement of this provision varies (and can depend on how "obvious" it is that the person holds US citizenship).
Cheers,
Bev


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

If the airline accepts a U.S. passport for checking into a one-way ticket from the U.S. to Europe, great, that's their prerogative. However, if I were also holding a French passport the French passport would be the one to present in that situation. Destination always matters.

As you point out, Bev, the U.S. has no passport control at exit. There is no legal or other requirement for a U.S. citizen to show a U.S. passport when exiting the U.S. Entering, yes, but exiting, no. The airline is not in the business of ESTA, visa, or other such enforcement. There is no exit control, remember, so there's no CBP checkpoint blocking egress.

What there _may_ be is data sharing. But you have absolutely no obligation to second guess that data collection. Moreover, U.S. citizens can never overstay a visa in the U.S., and U.S. citizens must always enter the U.S. with a U.S. passport. There will never be an overstay investigation for a French citizen who happens to get a data record sent from the airline upon exiting the U.S. if that same French citizen later reenters the U.S. with a U.S. passport.

Make sense? Everybody got it all straight now? It's really quite simple. To summarize: at airline check-in, present the one passport most relevant to entering your destination country. If the airline is still confused (rarely), and if (and only if) your second passport would clear up that confusion, present your second passport.


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## mancunianlass (Aug 16, 2013)

Pretty sure you will need a written, notarized authorization from your wife, the childrens' mother, to allow you to take the children out of the country.


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## return (Aug 14, 2013)

Yes. I will get that authorisation letter and my wife works with a notary so that will be easy to accomplish.


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

One more point on this data sharing. Let's suppose again you're checking in for a flight from New York to Paris. Do you know with whom the airline is sharing (or has already shared) data? It might not be only with the U.S. DHS. In fact, it's more typical if there's data sharing going on it's with the destination country. The U.S., for example, has very rigorous data collection and flight preclearance procedures for inbound flights.

Anyway, don't try to second guess data collection that you aren't informed about. Keep it simple. The airline will always be concerned about your ability to enter the country where they're going to drop you. (And if not they're just being lax at check-in, which sometimes they are.)

In terms of government-run passport control checkpoints it's also simple. If you're a citizen of that country you'll either be legally required to present the matching passport (e.g. U.S.) or "it's a darn good idea" (e.g. U.K.) For a third country show the passport that makes the most sense. For example, if you're both a Canadian and a Russian citizen, and you're entering the Schengen Area for a vacation, you'd probably show your Canadian passport (Schengen visa waiver). When you exit the Schengen Area you'd show the same passport to the passport control officer. And if you're checking into a flight from Paris to Moscow (which is before you get to passport control) you'd be showing your Russian passport to the airline check-in agent.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

I do believe that the US is perhaps the most "fanatic" about data collection about flights headed toward its territory. Probably what led to the whole ESTA thing in the first place - because they were worried about getting the information processed while the plane was in the air. I now have to fill out a sort of ESTA-like form when I book my flights online, which leads to a few comic moments trying to fit my answers into the questions intended for foreigners coming to the US.
Cheers,
Bev


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## return (Aug 14, 2013)

Out of interest what would happen if I checked in for my flight from The USA to UK using my UK passport and my children (though born in The USA)used their new UK passports. Commentators on this forum have said that by law US citizens are supposed to exit and enter USA on USA passports so what would be the consequences of that?


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## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

return said:


> Out of interest what would happen if I checked in for my flight from The USA to UK using my UK passport and my children (though born in The USA)used their new UK passports. Commentators on this forum have said that by law US citizens are supposed to exit and enter USA on USA passports so what would be the consequences of that?


You expect answers to potential consequences to decide to violate laws or not after you were advised that certain laws are in place?


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## return (Aug 14, 2013)

I was not aware about the 'law' until someone on this forum suggested it. How do I know that person is credible or qualified to offer legal advice. I would have to double check that information before acting on it. I would also suggest if The USA is the only country with this particular requirement I'm sure errors by dual nationals have been made in the past regarding which passport to enter or leave on.

So to correct you...... I was not suggesting violating any laws.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

As BBCWatcher has said, there is no Customs and Immigration procedure for leaving the US. The only procedure to be followed is on check-in for your flight, and that's up to the airline involved. If you check the State Department or CBP websites, you'll find statements that if you are a US citizen you must use your US passport to enter the US. But I have yet to find any authoritative source that indicates you must use a US passport to exit the US.

Perhaps someone can provide a website reference for this. But as far as I know, it's not a requirement.
Cheers,
Bev


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## twostep (Apr 3, 2008)

See eapis.cbp.dhs.gov for starters.
Final rule GOP.gov/fussy/pkg/fr-2008-11-18/e8-26621.htm
Do not have time or laptop to copy. Hope I got it right. Let me know.


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## MarylandNed (May 11, 2010)

Bevdeforges said:


> As far as I know there is no requirement to leave the US on a US passport if you are a US citizen. As BBCWatcher has pointed out, there is no formal passport control on departure from the US - other than the airline's review of your documents at check-in.
> 
> There are actually fines that can be levied if you try to enter the US on another passport when you are a US citizen, but enforcement of this provision varies (and can depend on how "obvious" it is that the person holds US citizenship).
> Cheers,
> Bev


US State Department Services Dual Nationality

_However, dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country. They are required to obey the laws of both countries. Either country has the right to enforce its laws, particularly if the person later travels there. *Most U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States.* Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. citizenship.Most countries permit a person to renounce or otherwise lose citizenship._


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## return (Aug 14, 2013)

As I suspected the directive on the travel US Gov site is vague and almost contradictory. 
I would have thought that checking a passport at airline check in and then your showing a different passport when you get off the plane in another country would cause discrepancies in information between airlines and gov agencies but I know very little about such matters.


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## MarylandNed (May 11, 2010)

return said:


> As I suspected the directive on the travel US Gov site is vague and almost contradictory.
> I would have thought that checking a passport at airline check in and then your showing a different passport when you get off the plane in another country would cause discrepancies in information between airlines and gov agencies but I know very little about such matters.


I don't see anything vague or contradictory. It even mentions the scenario of leaving on one passport and entering the destination country on a different passport. My wife and I have done that multiple times i.e. checked in with a US passport when leaving the US and entered the UK on a UK passport.


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

OK, let's break it apart folks. First you have to look at the statute (215 8 USC 1185 b):

"Except as otherwise provided by the President and subject to such limitations and exceptions as the President may authorize and prescribe, it shall be unlawful for any citizen of the United States to depart from or enter, or attempt to depart from or enter, the United States unless he bears a valid United States passport."

OK, so U.S. citizens must have U.S. passports when entering and exiting the U.S.

Now, what passport should be shown? Well, if it's the U.S. government -- U.S. Customs and Border Protection, but also TSA -- you musn't show a foreign passport if you're a U.S. citizen. Though that's not explicit in the statute, the President (a shorthand way of saying the federal executive branch) gets to set that rule, and it'd be really tough to argue even from the statute that the U.S. government couldn't ask to see the passport you bear at the border.

BUT two points:

1. There is no CBP checkpoint when exiting the U.S. There is TSA if you're departing the U.S. via an airline flight, but they don't necessarily demand a passport. You could show a driver's license (or state ID) and keep your U.S. passport in your pocket, and if that's acceptable to TSA, no problem. (You should not show a foreign passport to TSA if you are a U.S. citizen.)

2. The airline is not the government. Indeed, there are so many cases in which a U.S. passport would never work -- a citizen of Brazil and the U.S. flying to Brazil, as one of many examples -- that the airline absolutely must see your other passport, otherwise they won't let you check in.

To summarize: U.S. government, stipulated. U.S. citizens must show a U.S. passport to the U.S. government if they show any passport at all. CBP, TSA, etc. (But there is no CBP when exiting the U.S.) U.S. citizens must also bear (carry) a U.S. passport when exiting the U.S. according to statute. Airlines? You'll have to keep looking. I have, a lot, and I cannot find any statute or regulation that requires showing a U.S. passport to an airline when exiting the U.S.

Another interesting but separate question is whether a citizen of two countries that are not the U.S. should show the same passport to the airline when exiting the U.S. that he/she showed to CBP when entering the U.S. Well, there's no law or regulation requiring that, and there are many ways to leave the U.S. without an airline. And is the airline sharing data with your destination country (yes, perhaps), a country which might be hostile to dual citizenship? You can see the problem.


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## MarylandNed (May 11, 2010)

BBCWatcher said:


> OK, let's break it apart folks. First you have to look at the statute (215 8 USC 1185 b):
> 
> "Except as otherwise provided by the President and subject to such limitations and exceptions as the President may authorize and prescribe, it shall be unlawful for any citizen of the United States to depart from or enter, or attempt to depart from or enter, the United States unless he bears a valid United States passport."
> 
> ...


The bottom line is this...if you're a US citizen with multiple citizenships and you can get away with having one passport, it should probably be a US passport. You can probably exit the US easily on a non-US passport but you're definitely going to want a US passport if you ever enter the US again. The other alternative is to carry multiple passports and show the one most appropriate for the circumstances.

Anyone repatriating to the UK from the US who is also a US citizen, could probably get away with just a UK passport but, again, any future visit to the US should be on a US passport.

This idea of exiting the US on a US passport really only applies to air travel. My daughter has multiple citizenships (Ireland, UK, Canada and US). When she drives into Canada (she goes to university there), she shows her Canadian passport to Canadian immigration/customs because that is what makes most sense. Otherwise they'd ask for a student visa which she doesn't have or require (there is no US exit control and no airport-style check-in desk or security so no need to show a US passport). She shows her US passport when driving into the US (per US law). She always carries both passports just in case. So, technically speaking, I suppose she is still leaving the US with a US passport; it's just that she never shows it to anyone on the way out when driving across the border into Canada.


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## return (Aug 14, 2013)

I like what BBCWatcher is saying about having to show your USA passport only to a govt agency. As travellers we forget that the airline is not an authority even though they like to act like they are. I was told to submit my green card twice from an airline rep on my return from The UK last week because they said they needed to scan and identify it. I suppose they were covering themselves from problems that might arise when I arrived in The USA. I would hope that they wouldn't have problems and in depth questions with myself and my children travelling on UK passports as we repatriate to The UK from The USA.
Thanks for all your advice.


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

The airline always cares about admissibility at your destination. They had a legitimate reason to ask to see your green card before checking you in for a flight to the U.S.


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## MarylandNed (May 11, 2010)

return said:


> I like what BBCWatcher is saying about having to show your USA passport only to a govt agency. As travellers we forget that the airline is not an authority even though they like to act like they are. I was told to submit my green card twice from an airline rep on my return from The UK last week because they said they needed to scan and identify it. I suppose they were covering themselves from problems that might arise when I arrived in The USA. I would hope that they wouldn't have problems and in depth questions with myself and my children travelling on UK passports as we repatriate to The UK from The USA.
> Thanks for all your advice.


They are an authority in the sense that they can refuse to let you board their plane if they don't like your paperwork. They worry about you being refused entry and them having to take you back to where you came from. Having said that, you probably won't have an issue boarding a UK bound flight using UK passports.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Totally off on a tangent here, but have you considered what you plan to do about your green card when you move with the kids to the UK? Since this seems to be a "permanent" (or at least "long-term") move, you should notify the immigration people ahead of time of your intentions - giving up the green card, or applying for an exemption so that you could move back in a year or two. 

S-I-L of a friend of mine never bothered to deal with the green card issue when they moved to Europe. She started getting hassled on entry to the US after a bit and finally wound up having to re-apply for a visa and new green card when the family moved back to the US (after 15 years away). She was irate about it, but the visa process went pretty smoothly. (It helps, I'm sure, that her husband was working for a UN agency all those 15 years...)

Anyhow, just one other consideration for the big move.
Cheers,
Bev


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## return (Aug 14, 2013)

I am assuming the only reason they asked for a green card was because I had family with me that had US passports. Obviously the other Brits flying that day weren't asked for green cards because it was assumed they were going just for a visit.


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## MarylandNed (May 11, 2010)

return said:


> I am assuming the only reason they asked for a green card was because I had family with me that had US passports. Obviously the other Brits flying that day weren't asked for green cards because it was assumed they were going just for a visit.


Any UKC's flying into the US require a visa - or an ESTA if travelling under the Visa Waiver Program. As a green card holder, you probably didn't have a visa or an ESTA. This is likely why they wanted to know what right you had to enter the US.


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## Andresphabian (Jul 3, 2012)

Like the British - Australia also falls under the visa waiver program 

What if your 15 month old son was never issued a green card whilst in American and you need to travel back to the States - can he not fly under EStA visa??


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