# Tax



## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

We are now back and forward between the UK and Spain as we have had to delay our move due to FiL being ill with dementia. I was always led to believe that if you spend 183 days in Spain in a tax year you are liable to pay tax in Spain but now I've been informed it has to be 183 days consecutively , which will certainly make things easier if we do go over the 183 days.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Accordng to Blevins Franks, who I think are generally accepted to be competent in this area, the number of days you spend in Spain each year does not have to be consecutive if the total is 183 days or more. That is the way I have always understood it to be.

https://www.blevinsfranks.com/News/BlevinsFranks/Article/tax-residence-spain


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

It's definitely cumulative.

Where did the information that it's consecutive come from Roy C?


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> It's definitely cumulative.
> 
> Where did the information that it's consecutive come from Roy C?




Now you're asking, I'll have to go look for it :fingerscrossed:


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

Found it:

''There seems to be some confusion as to the question of residence (tax residence or otherwise).

The 90 day rule is not law (neither in Spain or the U.K.), the period is 183 days. To be specific "183 consecutive days over a 12-month per 12 months.''

Correct link this time:

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/taxes/income-taxes-abroad/spain/index_en.htm?fref=gc

From the horses mouth.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Wow - that's the first & only time I've ever heard that! 

ADVOCO - also considered to be reliable, take the same stance as Blevins 

Do you need to submit a Spanish tax return?



> Situation 1 : I am not sure whether I am resident or not
> 
> The vast majority of people know whether they are resident or non-resident just from common sense. We divide into those people that live here year round and those who have a holiday home in Spain that they visit from time to time. The former are tax resident in Spain and the latter non-resident, though owners of Spanish property still have to file a tax return (Form 210 – click for details).
> 
> ...


other situations are also given

The Spanish tax office also says that it's 183 days in a calendar year - nothing about consecutive

Persona física residente en España - Agencia Tributaria



> Una persona física es residente en territorio español cuando se dé cualquiera de las siguientes circunstancias:
> *Que permanezca más de 183 días, durante el año natural, en territorio español*. Para determinar este período de permanencia en territorio español se computarán las ausencias esporádicas salvo que el contribuyente acredite su residencia fiscal en otro país. En el supuesto de países o territorios de los calificados como paraíso fiscal, la Administración tributaria podrá exigir que se pruebe la permanencia en el mismo durante 183 días en el año natural.


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

Spain might say one think but if it is not compliant with EU Law they can't enforce it. My quotes come from a barrister who was an adviser to the European Commission and also the link is from the EC officially.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Roy C said:


> Spain might say one think but if it is not compliant with EU Law they can't enforce it. My quotes come from a barrister who was an adviser to the European Commission and also the link is from the EC officially.


It's the same in the UK though - 6 months of the year, not necessarily consecutive, & you're tax resident. I think it's the same in any EU country

edit: I've just looked at a few of the other countries & those I looked at say 'in a calendar year' or 'in a tax year'

I suspect it's either a typo or a bad translation


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> It's the same in the UK though - 6 months of the year, not necessarily consecutive, & you're tax resident. I think it's the same in any EU country
> 
> edit: I've just looked at a few of the other countries & those I looked at say 'in a calendar year' or 'in a tax year'
> 
> I suspect it's either a typo or a bad translation


I don't think it is a translation and I would be surprised if it wasn't correct but anyway we can all doubt.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

If it's an EU directive / law - why would some countries be different?


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## DonMarco (Nov 20, 2016)

Will be following this thread avidly.


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## 95995 (May 16, 2010)

As for it being an EU thing - I doubt it. France has particular requirements re tax residency and 183 days (consecutive or not) has nothing to do with it here. I would be very wary, especially since the view put forward could arguably make you tax resident nowhere - AFAIK that is quite simply not on either within or generally outside the EU.


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## DonMarco (Nov 20, 2016)

This probably applies,

Income taxes abroad - Your Europe


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

EverHopeful said:


> As for it being an EU thing - I doubt it. *France has particular requirements re tax residency* and 183 days (consecutive or not) has nothing to do with it here. I would be very wary, especially since the view put forward could arguably make you tax resident nowhere - AFAIK that is quite simply not on either within or generally outside the EU.


As does Spain. The 183 days is just one category - it's possible to be tax resident here even if you spend more time out of the country than in, if various other scenarios come into play


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

Roy C said:


> Spain might say one think but if it is not compliant with EU Law they can't enforce it. My quotes come from a barrister who was an adviser to the European Commission and also the link is from the EC officially.


Well, firstly it doesn't work like that. There are two aspects to EU law, primary legislation which is the treaties between the members, and secondary which are the directives and regulations etc. With regard to taxation the EU role is merely 

"to oversee national tax rules – to ensure they are consistent with certain EU policies, such as:

promoting economic growth and job creation
ensuring the free flow of goods, services and capital around the EU (in the single market)
making sure businesses in one country don't have an unfair advantage over competitors in another
ensuring taxes don't discriminate against consumers, workers or businesses from other EU countries.
Furthermore, EU decisions on tax matters require unanimous agreement by all member governments. This ensures that the interests of every single EU country are taken into account."

There is no primary EU legislation concerning income tax, as it is the responsibility of the country, nor is there any secondary legislation, 

So, if the Spanish rules were not in accord with the legislation, so for example discriminatory, then the process is that they ask the country to change it, and if they don't then they are taken to the ECJ. A recent example of this was the legislation concerning inheritance tax. In the meantime, following any ruling you need to follow the tax legislation.

Secondly the Spanish tax legislation is quite clear, so I'm not sure how the EU information site has translated it incorrectly :

1. Se entenderá que el contribuyente tiene su residencia habitual en territorio español cuando se dé cualquiera de las siguientes circunstancias:

a) Que permanezca más de 183 días, durante el año natural, en territorio español. Para determinar este período de permanencia en territorio español se computarán las ausencias esporádicas, salvo que el contribuyente acredite su residencia fiscal en otro país.


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## Roy C (Sep 29, 2012)

CapnBilly said:


> Well, firstly it doesn't work like that. There are two aspects to EU law, primary legislation which is the treaties between the members, and secondary which are the directives and regulations etc. With regard to taxation the EU role is merely
> 
> "to oversee national tax rules – to ensure they are consistent with certain EU policies, such as:
> 
> ...




Is that up to date as you can see with the document I linked from the EU it was recently updated July 31st to include consecutive days.


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

CapnBilly said:


> Secondly the Spanish tax legislation is quite clear, so I'm not sure how the EU information site has translated it incorrectly :
> 
> *1. Se entenderá que el contribuyente tiene su residencia habitual en territorio español cuando se dé cualquiera de las siguientes circunstancias:
> 
> a) Que permanezca más de 183 días, durante el año natural, en territorio español. Para determinar este período de permanencia en territorio español se computarán las ausencias esporádicas, salvo que el contribuyente acredite su residencia fiscal en otro país.*





Roy C said:


> [/B]
> 
> Is that up to date as you can see with the document I linked from the EU it was recently updated July 31st to include consecutive days.


It's from the current tax legislation. The last revisions were dated 21st January 2017. Any changes are made with effect from the day following publication in the BOE.


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## KG5 (Mar 21, 2016)

*Open tothe floor*

Having read this thread, I'm going to take this opportunity to ask for advice on what I should do - all advice gratefully received

Moved with family - wife (not working due to illness but hoping to do so again) and 2 kids (both registered and due to start primary school in Spain) - back in June.

Plan was to be here for a minimum of 1 year to enable the children to learn the language/help wife's health/enjoy the cultural immersion. Signed an initial 12 month rental.

Initial thoughts are we want to stay for longer, possibly permanent.

We have NIE/Padron both of which we did immediately.

I work in the telecoms industry and am paid in the UK on PAYE basis.

My employer doesn't have a Spanish entity but is willing to set up whatever is required to have me employed in Spain.

So my questions

- when/how should I look to transfer tax residency?
- any advice on selling our home in the UK?
- the likes of Blevins Franks seem to be recommended but apart from equity in UK property, we have very little in the way of wealth for them to manage but finding someone who can help with tax issues UK/Spain is hard based on initial research

As it stands I don't think I need to rush anything. We have 9 months left on our rental contract, Brexit will play out and impact will become clearer in the coming months and from what I understand I don't need to declare anything in Spain until June 2018.

Thanks

KG


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Checked this morning with local accountant 

It is categorically 183 days cumulative. It does not need to be consecutive


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

KG5 said:


> Having read this thread, I'm going to take this opportunity to ask for advice on what I should do - all advice gratefully received
> 
> Moved with family - wife (not working due to illness but hoping to do so again) and 2 kids (both registered and due to start primary school in Spain) - back in June.
> 
> ...


Well that's a pretty tall order for giving advice KG, no doubt the FAQ stickers on this forum will answer the most common
questions that arise when first moving to Spain.

*Although the most useful advice is:*

1. Don't close any of your existing UK bank accounts, credit cards etc. All of them will happily accept a Spanish address
and you can also continue to manage these accounts online from Spain.

The reasons are obvious - once you start receiving your Pension, the Pension provider will only pay into a British bank
account. 
As the opening of any new UK banks accounts and credit cards are restricted to UK residents only ( with the obvious exception
of the Basic bank account - although Basic means Basic for such accounts ) besides you will no doubt still be
returning to the UK, from time to time to visit friends and family.

While living in Spain, you can decide ( at your leisure ) which cards and UK accounts, you really need to retain or close.

2. If for any reason you need to seek the help of an Independent Financial Adviser in the UK ( while your still legally
UK resident with a UK address in Britain ) DO IT NOW as IFA's wouldn't touch you with a barge pole once your non
resident UK or will charge greatly inflated prices for their advice when they do so.

No doubt if you have Pension's or Pension pots held in previous employers pension schemes and your undecided as
to whether to leave it be or consolidate them into a SIPP or an overseas QROPS Pension scheme.
Then FCA rules stipulate that you must prove that you have sought IFA advice first before being allowed to
transfer amounts ( over 35k ) out or any company pension schemes, particularly the Defined Final Salary ones.

3. If your decide to retain property in the UK or rent it out, no doubt you might need to consider re-mortgaging
before leaving the UK - as again lenders quibble about lending to non UK residents.

Finally sorry if my useful advice doesn't include the questions you asked in your post but there again, I find that this
comes out top of the - I regret not doing this before I left the UK list.


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## KG5 (Mar 21, 2016)

Williams2 said:


> Well that's a pretty tall order for giving advice KG, no doubt the FAQ stickers on this forum will answer the most common
> questions that arise when first moving to Spain.
> 
> *Although the most useful advice is:*
> ...



Thanks sincerely for taking the time to write this - some very useful suggestions.

Re mortgage, if I were to take out a new mortgage deal (re-mortgage or simply take advantage if a better/discounted rate), would the fact that I subsequently "officially" move to Spain mean when it came to the end f the discount period I would have no choice but to take up the SVR? Or am I going into too much detail there? I am still confused as to whether I would still be able to take out a mortgage in the UK if I became a fiscal resident in Spain.


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

KG5 said:


> Thanks sincerely for taking the time to write this - some very useful suggestions.
> 
> Re mortgage, if I were to take out a new mortgage deal (re-mortgage or simply take advantage if a better/discounted rate), would the fact that I subsequently "officially" move to Spain mean when it came to the end if the discount period I would have no choice but to take up the SVR? Or am I going into too much detail there? I am still confused as to whether I would still be able to take out a mortgage in the UK if I became a fiscal resident in Spain.


Well I re-mortgaged my British house before moving permanently to Spain and the lender never quibbled
the change of my residential address one bit, as I continued to pay the monthly mortgage and
everything.
All they are interested in is the facts - as they stand when you made the fixed rate or re-mortgage
application - not what you might or might not do in the future.

The thing is you will get less bother, less hassle and no doubt a better rate by keeping schtum 
about your ultimate plans to move to Spain.
Added to which you will be in a far stronger negotiating position and could get a better deal, due to
the fact that you would have ( hopefully ? ) built up a great credit history at your UK address
and ( I assume ) still holding down a good UK job as evidence of monthly income and everything.
No doubt a long term fix rate might be your best option - although those that have fallen on
the lenders SVR - after the discounted or fixed rate deal - haven't lost out, due to these historically
low BOE interest rates over the past 8 or 9 years.


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## KG5 (Mar 21, 2016)

Williams2 said:


> Well I re-mortgaged my British house before moving permanently to Spain and the lender never quibbled
> the change of my residential address one bit, as I continued to pay the monthly mortgage and
> everything.
> All they are interested in is the facts - as they stand when you made the fixed rate or re-mortgage
> ...


Again,thanks for the info Williams2.

All your assumptions are correct but the only problem might stem from the fact that we have been very open with the bank about moving to Spain and that we are renting the property out,to which they have given their permission. 

So if we stay I think we will need to go on a BTL mortgage - another factor that might make selling more attractive.

Key message I take from you though is get any deals done that might involve borrowing while I'm still being paid in the UK!


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

KG5 said:


> Having read this thread, I'm going to take this opportunity to ask for advice on what I should do - all advice gratefully received
> 
> Moved with family - wife (not working due to illness but hoping to do so again) and 2 kids (both registered and due to start primary school in Spain) - back in June.
> 
> ...


The major thing that I can't see you've done yet, is for you all to get residency certificates. By law you are obliged to do this with 90 days of arriving and intending to stay longer.


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## KG5 (Mar 21, 2016)

snikpoh said:


> The major thing that I can't see you've done yet, is for you all to get residency certificates. By law you are obliged to do this with 90 days of arriving and intending to stay longer.


Hi Snikpoh 

The main reason I haven't done this is because I don't have evidence of finance going in to a Spanish bank account. My pay goes into the UK bank account - I took some advice from a Gestor who said I could probably still apply for residency but it would be complicated and I could see it turning int a protracted situation.

A car purchase has taken a very long time because we have been asked for so many different details - inconsistent messages basically - and it feels like residencia would be the same.

I also travel with work so can use the excuse that I am back and forth arranging something more permanent.

But I know it is something I must do!

KG


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## Williams2 (Sep 15, 2013)

KG5 said:


> Again,thanks for the info Williams2.
> 
> All your assumptions are correct but the only problem might stem from the fact that we have been very open with the bank about moving to Spain and that we are renting the property out,to which they have given their permission.
> 
> ...


At the end of the day - it's down to you whether you sell your house before moving to Spain or retain it for rental income
and a place to return if the Spanish dream turns sour, etc.
For those who need the money made from their UK house, as collateral for the new one they are buying in Spain -
then many sell before the move in order to take full advantage of 100 per cent CGT relief on their former home in the UK.

Also bear in mind that, you don't have to go with your present bank, to get a new mortgage, as there are many
other lenders in the UK mortgage market where you would be a new client ( and therefore unaware of your ultimate
intentions )
No doubt many of them with far better mortgage rates, etc particularly for new customers.
Maybe even your present bank might still seriously consider your re-mortgage application, if you can prove that your
employment continues regardless of moving to Spain, although again best to do it while your still counted as UK resident.

Have you thought about taking out a SIPP ? ( unless you have one already ) as here again best to do it
while your still counted as UK Resident. Of course SIPP's don't suit all people and for many it's been a
way to amalgamate many moribund Pension pots ( but not the Final Salary ones ) from former employers,
and invest the money in Stocks and Shares to trade in a Self Select, Stocks & Shares SIPP account over
the internet.

Finally your right - best secure any Savings accounts, etc like those that pay a higher interest rate on your
savings ( although precious few of them these days !! ) while you still count as UK resident.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

KG5 said:


> Hi Snikpoh
> 
> The main reason I haven't done this is because I don't have evidence of finance going in to a Spanish bank account. My pay goes into the UK bank account - I took some advice from a Gestor who said I could probably still apply for residency but it would be complicated and I could see it turning int a protracted situation.
> 
> ...


The easiest way with the amount going into a Spanish bank account is to recycle the same amount each month, obviously not one lump sum but take some out at various times during the month and then pay it all back in on the same day each month. You will need to have more than the recycling amount in there so that you don't run the account down to zero each month.


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