# Residency requirement



## annettemarc (May 13, 2016)

Hi! We plan to retire to Italy at the start of October, as dual citizens. 

Our hope for retirement was to experience various regions of Italy and cities in three-month blocks. (e.g., 3 months in Naples, 3 months in Venice area, etc.). Adventure!

Initially, things would be simpler through AirBnB. They rent by the night, by the week, and by the month (at great prices for us). We would sign up for a 3-month stay at one of these, and show the local whatchamacallit place that approves health care/residency requirements that we are confirmed for that period. Would that be enough for us to be considered "residents" for purposes of getting our health card? 

If not, would it make a difference if we signed up for six-months in one place?

Or would Italy look at it with suspicion, since the places we stay aren't really intended as apartments, since they typically rent by the night. That is, we're not actually signing a "lease".

Thank you for any input!!!

Annette


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

You need a place that can provide residence. Not only would the town say no but the landlord would be fearful. They gain nothing from you having residency in their home but it's harder to evict you etc.

Technically even with an eighteen month rental contract you aren't supposed to get residency.

Other point is if you've only got three months in a spot you might not even get all the paperwork done before you need to move. 

Rent a place. Go to the town hall with all your paperwork. Wait for the visit to prove you're really living at the location given. Go back to the town. Get your form for the health service. Go to the health service. Sign up. Wait for the health card to come in the mail. 

All that can take time. Even in a small town.

OTOH you'd get free emergency health care no matter what. What you'd miss is a GP etc.


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## annettemarc (May 13, 2016)

NickZ said:


> You need a place that can provide residence. Not only would the town say no but the landlord would be fearful. They gain nothing from you having residency in their home but it's harder to evict you etc.
> 
> Technically even with an eighteen month rental contract you aren't supposed to get residency.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply, Nick! So, you're saying I'd land in town, find an apartment, sign a lease, have the town come visit to be sure I'm there, and then get health insurance?

Do we actually need to continue to physically reside in that apartment to be considered residents there? I mean, once the visit is done & our paperwork is done, can we just keep paying rent there, get our mail there, and still be away on 3-month trips all year to see Italy? 

If we get a really cheap place (basically rent a 'room' with shared bath), would it be okay? Or does it need to look comfortable?

Would that be considered illegal? Unethical? Would the landlord have anything to worry about? 

Even so-called "furnished" apartments aren't fully equipped with day-to-day necessities like dishes, small appliances, hair dryers, etc. We don't want to invest in "stuff" unless we absolutely need to. For one thing, we're approaching our 70s, and don't want to haul stuff from one place to another if we choose to move from one city to another. 

That's one reason that the B&B places are ideal for our purposes. Everything is in place for us.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Oh plenty of people don't live in the town they have residence.

College kids away at school.
People working out of town.
Or people travelling. 

You can have only one residence but you don't really need to spend any time there.

The place needs to be considered liveable but that standard is so low I'm sure you'll be looking at nicer places.

The only thing that the landlord would care about is the rent. If you've paid a deposit they aren't going to care if the place is empty. Might make them happy. Less wear and tear.


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## annettemarc (May 13, 2016)

"Looking at nicer places" wasn't exactly what I had in mind, if we don't need to stay there. I was thinking along the lines of "dirt cheap". Maybe a single bedroom in a private house, where the owner is desperate for extra income, and renting out the room to boarders.

Maybe in Bologna (university town), the standards are lower than average. 

(Do you happen to know what we would need to pay for health insurance if we decided not to establish this sort of formal "residency" in Italy? We'd still be inside the country more than half the year, so would still pay taxes (which is fine with us), but could just move from one place to the next. (Right?)

We're citizens, with Italian passports, so I assume we're allowed to keep "vacationing" in Italy all year round. I mean, they wouldn't throw us out or anything. (Right?) 

Anyway, any idea what a health insurance policy would cost Italian citizens who choose to NOT meet the local residency requirements to get the free stuff? 

We would be living within the borders of Italy more than half the year, so we wouldn't be considered "AIRE" ... plus, we won't have a residence here in the US. Ergo we'd be paying taxes to Italy on our US retirement income. It will be interesting to know how they'd classify us. (Is there a category called "Vagabonds"? "Aging Wanderers?")

(Maybe it would be cheaper to pay for our healthcare than to pay rent on that "room")

Thanks for all your help!!!


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Believe me any place you're willing to live in will be nicer then the basic standard. You want heat? Running water? A window? That's about it for the basic standard. I'm not even sure if the rules require heat and water. 

I don't think you can pay in. Even if you weren't Italian they'd want you to have residency. Your choice of GP are local to your home. 

The fee to buy in is based on income. It's a percentage of income but that's the fee for non Italians.

They can't throw you out. Even if you weren't Italian it would be hard to throw you out.


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## annettemarc (May 13, 2016)

So non-residents buy private insurance?

Meanwhile, assuming someone doesn't want Italian health care at all, would a person need to prove to anyone that they had an actual residence in Italy? I mean, if I were just a tourist, I wouldn't need to establish residency ... at what point would I? 

We have been renters here in the US for 31 years (3 houses in that time). We're offloading all our stuff before we get on the plane to Italy. Ergo, we won't have a "residence" in the US.

So theoretically: If, on October 1st, I get off the plane from the US (with my Italian passport in hand) and go immediately to Lake Garda where [not even in my wildest dreams] I have an AirBnB three-month reservation from October through December, and check in there, and then from there go to another reserved BnB in Naples from January through March, and so on, until we die (which at this rate won't take long) then what "town hall" do we go to?

Is this making any sense at all?

Thanks again for the answers! 

(Even if I weren't Italian it would be hard to throw me out? I like the sound of that.)


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Yes you'd have to find private insurance for non emergency care.

In theory you should have residency. OTOH nobody is going to chase after you. Many of the homeless don't have residency. Not having residency will mean you can't buy a car. That's the main issue you'll face.


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## Italia-Mx (Jan 14, 2009)

There is no private health insurance for Italian citizens. We either use the national healthcare or we pay out of our pocket. If you're in Italy with an Italian passport and you intend to stay, you have three months to apply for residency. There is no other choice for you as an Italian citizen.


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## annettemarc (May 13, 2016)

Italia-Mx said:


> There is no private health insurance for Italian citizens. We either use the national healthcare or we pay out of our pocket. If you're in Italy with an Italian passport and you intend to stay, you have three months to apply for residency. There is no other choice for you as an Italian citizen.


Thank you! We definitely will get an apartment/room, and apply for residency. I'm concerned about something you wrote, though. A friend (also a dual citizen, relocated to Italy) told me a horror story about how it took her several months after the time she took her papers to the town hall until she was finally covered. She claims there was nothing complicated about her situation ... Just one delay after another.

Does that seem possible? It seems bizarre to me. 

How quickly do they get the "visit" scheduled, to verify residency? Does that sometimes cause significant delays?

How long does it take before we actually get a card that we can take to schedule a visit to a GP? (Assuming that we get as much as possible prepared before we go to Italy ... like verifying that the Italian birth certificates have been registered, etc.)

Are we not permitted to purchase private insurance that will cover us in the interim? Not being well-covered would be a worry for us.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

No one will chase after you if you don't have residency. Many of the homeless don't have it. All the illegals don't have it.

How long it'll take will depend on the town. You don't have to wait until the card arrives to see a GP. When you register with the health service you'll pick a doctor.  From that point on you have a doctor. You'll have your number well before this. The card might take a week after you register.

You don't need to register your birth certificate. Show up with your ID. Italian passport will work perfectly. Your lease. Ask to register.

You can also go to the guardia medica for basic health services.


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## Italia-Mx (Jan 14, 2009)

annettemarc said:


> Thank you! We definitely will get an apartment/room, and apply for residency. I'm concerned about something you wrote, though. A friend (also a dual citizen, relocated to Italy) told me a horror story about how it took her several months after the time she took her papers to the town hall until she was finally covered. She claims there was nothing complicated about her situation ... Just one delay after another.
> 
> Does that seem possible? It seems bizarre to me.
> 
> ...


If you're a pensionato (retired), when you show up at the Anagrafe to register your presence in Italy and apply for residence, they will give you a paper receipt and you can ask that they mark your receipt with permission to go immediately to ASL and apply for your Tessera Sanitaria. This way you won't have to wait for the commune to send someone around to verify where you live. They DO understand that retired people need to be covered quickly in case of an emergency.

At the ASL just give them your receipt from the Anagrafe and they will give you a temporary paper health card and also give you a list of doctors in your neighborhood to choose from as your primary care physician. You can select a doctor and visit him the same day if you like, as long as you know his office hours. You can go around to his address and his office hours will be posted on the door. The plastic card will come in the mail probably within six months to a year but the paper card is perfectly good to use until then. You will present this paper card to the primary doctor you selected and he will key all of your data from that card into his computer. After he does that you are officially his patient.

As to when the commune gets around to sending someone to verify your address it will depend on how busy that commune is. It could take several months, afterwhich time you will go back to the Anagrafe and get your Carta d'Identita. This will also be a paper card if you have never held residency before. In the meantime, the receipt you got from the Anagrafe is perfectly fine to use for ID purposes and for opening a bank account, etc.


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## annettemarc (May 13, 2016)

Italia-Mx said:


> If you're a pensionato (retired), when you show up at the Anagrafe to register your presence in Italy and apply for residence, they will give you a paper receipt and you can ask that they mark your receipt with permission to go immediately to ASL and apply for your Tessera Sanitaria. This way you won't have to wait for the commune to send someone around to verify where you live. They DO understand that retired people need to be covered quickly in case of an emergency.
> 
> At the ASL just give them your receipt from the Anagrafe and they will give you a temporary paper health card and also give you a list of doctors in your neighborhood to choose from as your primary care physician. You can select a doctor and visit him the same day if you like, as long as you know his office hours. You can go around to his address and his office hours will be posted on the door. The plastic card will come in the mail probably within six months to a year but the paper card is perfectly good to use until then. You will present this paper card to the primary doctor you selected and he will key all of your data from that card into his computer. After he does that you are officially his patient.
> 
> As to when the commune gets around to sending someone to verify your address it will depend on how busy that commune is. It could take several months, afterwhich time you will go back to the Anagrafe and get your Carta d'Identita. This will also be a paper card if you have never held residency before. In the meantime, the receipt you got from the Anagrafe is perfectly fine to use for ID purposes and for opening a bank account, etc.


Do you mean that if we're on a pension from the United States (California State Teacher Retirement System, and Social Security), we will be considered "pensioners" for the purpose of getting the quick turnaround on medical care? I had assumed they would give that deference to their own country's pensioners (because the pensioners had been paying into the Italian health care system all their lives), but not new dual-citizens from foreign pension plans.

And, to clarify, once we get an apartment rented, we can go to the Anagrafe with our ID (e.g., Italian passport) and copy of our lease, and get that receipt you're talking about? 

(How do we prove to them that we're pensioners? Or do they just look at us and see that we're ancient and assume we're telling the truth?)


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## Italia-Mx (Jan 14, 2009)

annettemarc said:


> Do you mean that if we're on a pension from the United States (California State Teacher Retirement System, and Social Security), we will be considered "pensioners" for the purpose of getting the quick turnaround on medical care? I had assumed they would give that deference to their own country's pensioners (because the pensioners had been paying into the Italian health care system all their lives), but not new dual-citizens from foreign pension plans.
> 
> And, to clarify, once we get an apartment rented, we can go to the Anagrafe with our ID (e.g., Italian passport) and copy of our lease, and get that receipt you're talking about?
> 
> (How do we prove to them that we're pensioners? Or do they just look at us and see that we're ancient and assume we're telling the truth?)


If you're an Italian citizen living in Italy and you're retired, it doesn't matter which country is paying your pension. Many Italians worked in Switzerland and get a pension in Swiss Francs but they still get Italian healthcare if they live in Italy. 

By the way, if you're Italian by jure sanguinis, then you were Italian from birth so how could an Italian such as yourself have paid into the Italian pension plan if you never lived in Italy? It does not matter where an Italian such as yourself lived or worked.

Most likely you will be asked at the Anagrafe if you're retired. All you have to say is, "Yes". You will then get the receipt and you can use that receipt and your Italian passport for whatever you need to get done in Italy until the commune let's you apply for your Carta d'Identita and that will be after they come around to verify you live there.


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## annettemarc (May 13, 2016)

Italia-Mx said:


> If you're an Italian citizen living in Italy and you're retired, it doesn't matter which country is paying your pension. Many Italians worked in Switzerland and get a pension in Swiss Francs but they still get Italian healthcare if they live in Italy.
> 
> By the way, if you're Italian by jure sanguinis, then you were Italian from birth so how could an Italian such as yourself have paid into the Italian pension plan if you never lived in Italy? It does not matter where an Italian such as yourself lived or worked.
> 
> Most likely you will be asked at the Anagrafe if you're retired. All you have to say is, "Yes". You will then get the receipt and you can use that receipt and your Italian passport for whatever you need to get done in Italy until the commune let's you apply for your Carta d'Identita and that will be after they come around to verify you live there.


Thank you! (They'd give us some sort of notification of their upcoming visit, right? So that we'll be there when they visit instead of, say, wandering through the Arena Chapel admiring Giotto's work? )

Thank you so much for your help. 

NOTE: My husband is the Italian by jure sanguinis. We were married (long) before 1983, so I'm automatically an Italian citizen, too, though I can't recall the term for it. He got his letter already. I'm waiting for mine.


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## GeordieBorn (Jul 15, 2016)

It depends on the comune and they do what they want, our local police turned up without notice just a week or two after we applied for residency. I met them as they pulled up and in my best Italian  told them my OH was in the shower... Pure embarrassment on their behalf, they quickly made their exit…


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## annettemarc (May 13, 2016)

GeordieBorn said:


> It depends on the comune and they do what they want, our local police turned up without notice just a week or two after we applied for residency. I met them as they pulled up and in my best Italian  told them my OH was in the shower... Pure embarrassment on their behalf, they quickly made their exit…


ROFL! I'm trying to visualize that. Traumatizing the Italian officials. Way to go.

(NOTE TO SELF: find out how to say "he's in the shower" in Italian.) I know how to say "the woman is eating a green apple" and "the men are swimming" and "the eggs are blue", and I'm almost to the stage where I can ask what way to turn to get to the museum, but "he's in the shower" might not be standard fare for those learning the Italian language.

Meanwhile, what would have happened if you'd both been out for the day? (Or better still if you'd both been in the shower?)  I know we're not expected to sit at home and wait for them to arrive, right?


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## Italia-Mx (Jan 14, 2009)

annettemarc said:


> Thank you! (They'd give us some sort of notification of their upcoming visit, right? So that we'll be there when they visit instead of, say, wandering through the Arena Chapel admiring Giotto's work? )
> 
> Thank you so much for your help.
> 
> NOTE: My husband is the Italian by jure sanguinis. We were married (long) before 1983, so I'm automatically an Italian citizen, too, though I can't recall the term for it. He got his letter already. I'm waiting for mine.


You're welcome. No, they don't give you any notice as to when they will be visiting to verify you live there but they usually show up in the morning. You don't have to wait around. They will come back and eventually find you at home. It's nothing to worry about. They will come in and ask you a few questions, maybe look at the names on your mailbox and ask you to sign the document he presents and then he will tell you when you can go back to the commune and get your ID card. When he left my place, he told me to wait a couple of weeks before I went back to get my ID card.


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## GeordieBorn (Jul 15, 2016)

annettemarc said:


> ROFL! I'm trying to visualize that. Traumatizing the Italian officials. Way to go.
> 
> (NOTE TO SELF: find out how to say "he's in the shower" in Italian.) I know how to say "the woman is eating a green apple" and "the men are swimming" and "the eggs are blue", and I'm almost to the stage where I can ask what way to turn to get to the museum, but "he's in the shower" might not be standard fare for those learning the Italian language.
> 
> Meanwhile, what would have happened if you'd both been out for the day? (Or better still if you'd both been in the shower?)  I know we're not expected to sit at home and wait for them to arrive, right?


We well may have both been out or in the shower (or other) first time thay arrived, but yes, they would have come back... Real likelyhood is they knew fine well the OH was in the shower that dat AND they know everything else you have done and where you have been... it's Italy not the UK and/or the USA, they know most things, especially in the smaller rural locations - be warned:brick:


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## annettemarc (May 13, 2016)

GeordieBorn said:


> We well may have both been out or in the shower (or other) first time thay arrived, but yes, they would have come back... Real likelyhood is they knew fine well the OH was in the shower that dat AND they know everything else you have done and where you have been... it's Italy not the UK and/or the USA, they know most things, especially in the smaller rural locations - be warned:brick:


LOL. I'll have to remember that. 

I hope our visit comes relatively soon after we arrive. We have no intention of being at the apartment much, unless they arrive early in the morning before we've headed off for the day. 

We also would like to explore Italy quite a bit, and might be on a trip somewhere. For instance, we'll initially be settling down in Bologna, which is near enough to Florence and Venice that we would be able to go on trips to those cities and stay a week or so. 

Well, I guess we'll figure things out when we get there. We can't be the first people to move into Bologna in this situation.


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