# The First Truly Elected President Since Ever!



## The Surfer

Mohammed Morsi is the first truly elected president of Egypt since ages ago.
Thanks for the Revolution that gave the people choices.


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## aykalam

Mabrook!


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## Sonrisa

The Surfer said:


> Mohammed Morsi is the first truly elected president of Egypt since ages ago.
> Thanks for the Revolution that gave the people choices.


Yes, choices... But lets not forget that the choices were " same same" or "same same but worse".

Sorry to spoil the party but I find it very interesting that everyone is so cheerful.


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## CAIRODEMON

Sonrisa said:


> Yes, choices... But lets not forget that the choices were " same same" or "same same but worse".
> 
> Sorry to spoil the party but I find it very interesting that everyone is so cheerful.



I know what you mean. If people were so blessed by choice why did only just over 50% bother to vote?

Trying to think of (in the words of Ian Dury) reasons to be cheerful. Best that I can think of is that I'm not a Copt, and it's supposed to stop raining in the UK soon.


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## Whitedesert

CAIRODEMON said:


> I know what you mean. If people were so blessed by choice why did only just over 50% bother to vote?
> 
> Trying to think of (in the words of Ian Dury) reasons to be cheerful. Best that I can think of is that I'm not a Copt, and it's supposed to stop raining in the UK soon.


 My my, you Brits are a cheerful bunch! Must be all that drizzle, grey sky's and cold back home. Give the guy a break! Be positive. Maybe he surprises all of us. There is always that possibility!


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## The Surfer

Sonrisa said:


> Yes, choices... But lets not forget that the choices were " same same" or "same same but worse".
> 
> Sorry to spoil the party but I find it very interesting that everyone is so cheerful.


You didn't spoil the party as it the first time in our history to choose a real leader and the big prize is that it's the first time to have a "non military president" since 1952 !


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## CAIRODEMON

Whitedesert said:


> My my, you Brits are a cheerful bunch! Must be all that drizzle, grey sky's and cold back home. Give the guy a break! Be positive. Maybe he surprises all of us. There is always that possibility!


You forgot to mention the warm beer! Anyway one more reason to be cheerful, our homegrown cricketers are about to give the uncouth colonials a sound thrashing

So, Mursi was democratically elected, but then Hitler was democratically elected too, and was seen as the acceptable face of socialism, and better than being communist. Most likely people were saying that we should give him a break, and that all of his writing and speeches were just posturing. Guess they thought that he was really a social democrat with a penchant for flash uniforms.:tongue1:


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## Whitedesert

CAIRODEMON said:


> You forgot to mention the warm beer! Anyway one more reason to be cheerful, our homegrown cricketers are about to give the uncouth colonials a sound thrashing
> 
> So, Mursi was democratically elected, but then Hitler was democratically elected too, and was seen as the acceptable face of socialism, and better than being communist. Most likely people were saying that we should give him a break, and that all of his writing and speeches were just posturing. Guess they thought that he was really a social democrat with a penchant for flash uniforms.:tongue1:


 That is possible, perhaps for the first time in history...we lost to ZIMBABWE!? you heard right, Zimbabwe...the other colonials directly from Brit decend...what can I say, "there is a bad moon rising?" Dont think Mursi is another Hitler/Stalin/Moussolini/Franco, but that is just me, Mr Positive.


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## Qsw

I think people are happy because this is something that would've been impossible just a couple of years ago. It's also a direct tangible result from the revolution. Yes it's the MB, so liberals (like me) and other groups aren't as happy as they would be if a liberal or secular candidate won, but at least it's a step forward. Had Shafiq won, the whole democratic process would have been brought into question and there would have been a lot more turmoil. There will be still be turmoil now but it will be a lot less I think and hope. At least with him winning any accusations of vote rigging will be set aside by most. 

Another round of elections is probably going to be coming up soon, I hope it's in six months to a year, giving enough time for people to react to any actions Mursi takes while in office, and also giving time for strong opposition parties to form.

Based on what I read about how Mursi responded to the MB youth, I am already starting to dislike him, but I'll still wait until I see how he acts now that he's accountable to more than just his own party. 

I had hoped to see a liberal and secular person in charge, as I don't believe in mixing religion and politics. But that's democracy for you.


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## Whitedesert

Qsw said:


> I think people are happy because this is something that would've been impossible just a couple of years ago. It's also a direct tangible result from the revolution. Yes it's the MB, so liberals (like me) and other groups aren't as happy as they would be if a liberal or secular candidate won, but at least it's a step forward. Had Shafiq won, the whole democratic process would have been brought into question and there would have been a lot more turmoil. There will be still be turmoil now but it will be a lot less I think and hope. At least with him winning any accusations of vote rigging will be set aside by most.
> 
> Another round of elections is probably going to be coming up soon, I hope it's in six months to a year, giving enough time for people to react to any actions Mursi takes while in office, and also giving time for strong opposition parties to form.
> 
> Based on what I read about how Mursi responded to the MB youth, I am already starting to dislike him, but I'll still wait until I see how he acts now that he's accountable to more than just his own party.
> 
> I had hoped to see a liberal and secular person in charge, as I don't believe in mixing religion and politics. But that's democracy for you.


 I think this kinds of put it in a nutshell. And yes, lets apply what the American's generally do of measuring after the first 100 days in the office, and see what he comes up with. Mursi should be intellegent enough to figure out religion and government is like oil and water, but yes, lets wait and see.


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## DeadGuy

Sonrisa said:


> Yes, choices... But lets not forget that the choices were " same same" or "same same but worse".
> 
> Sorry to spoil the party but I find it very interesting that everyone is so cheerful.


The majority of the Egyptians that gave Mursi their votes only did that cause they either thought they were supporting Islam, or cause they were programmed to obey........... And it worked...........So they're celebrating it :eyebrows:


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## MaidenScotland

I am surprised that no one has mentioned that Christians in one town were prevented from voting.. and that one town only had 1 voter. 
The printer at one polling station sent out the wrong ballots? how can you send out the wrong ballots in a two man race?

Was there another day for them to vote once these anomalies were proven? 
Did I hear it correctly?


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## DeadGuy

The Surfer said:


> You didn't spoil the party as it the first time in our history to choose a real leader and the big prize is that it's the first time to have a "non military president" since 1952 !


Yup, he's people's choice that's for sure 

It would've been much better if he was the choice of people who knew what they were doing :eyebrows:


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## DeadGuy

Qsw said:


> I think people are happy because this is something that would've been impossible just a couple of years ago. It's also a direct tangible result from the revolution. Yes it's the MB, so liberals (like me) and other groups aren't as happy as they would be if a liberal or secular candidate won, but at least it's a step forward. Had Shafiq won, the whole democratic process would have been brought into question and there would have been a lot more turmoil. There will be still be turmoil now but it will be a lot less I think and hope. At least with him winning any accusations of vote rigging will be set aside by most.
> 
> Another round of elections is probably going to be coming up soon, I hope it's in six months to a year, giving enough time for people to react to any actions Mursi takes while in office, and also giving time for strong opposition parties to form.
> 
> Based on what I read about how Mursi responded to the MB youth, I am already starting to dislike him, but I'll still wait until I see how he acts now that he's accountable to more than just his own party.
> 
> I had hoped to see a liberal and secular person in charge, as I don't believe in mixing religion and politics. But that's democracy for you.


When people are manipulated and sent to vote for the wrong reasons and then sent to Tahrir Square to protest against something that didn't even happen just to let others know what they're capable of doing if they're not the winners? Sorry but there's nothing "democratic" about that.........

However he "won" the presidency and he is now in charge, and like you said, it will take time to be able to tell how he/they're planning to run the country, but frankly speaking? The MB's history of hypocrisy and how low they can get to get what they want isn't really something that would make me expect much from them anyway :ranger:


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## DeadGuy

MaidenScotland said:


> I am surprised that no one has mentioned that Christians in one town were prevented from voting.. and that one town only had 1 voter.
> The printer at one polling station sent out the wrong ballots? how can you send out the wrong ballots in a two man race?
> 
> Was there another day for them to vote once these anomalies were proven?
> Did I hear it correctly?


The Christians being prevented from voting was mentioned yesterday during the press conference? They said they compared the numbers of those who did vote during the first round to the numbers of the run offs and they said more people voted the second time, so............Basically what they were trying to say was..........It never happened? :eyebrows:

And the printer was proved to be made in the USA, so it's the Yanks' fault


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## MaidenScotland

I asked my four drivers who they wanted for president and each on of them said... neither of them.


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## DeadGuy

MaidenScotland said:


> I asked my four drivers who they wanted for president and each on of them said... neither of them.


Wanna ask them again now that he _won_? 

He is people's choice :spit:


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## MaidenScotland

To be honest they are not happy with who is president... 

I only know of two people who voted for MB.. lol


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## hurghadapat

MaidenScotland said:


> To be honest they are not happy with who is president...
> 
> I only know of two people who voted for MB.. lol



IMHO...and reading between the lines....deal done with the military...and he put in as a figure head but the military will still be pulling the strings...seems very strange to me that with all spoilt votes etc he should come out as a 51.7% winner...hence the delay in announcing the winner as it took someone awhile to get their sums right...i may be right or i may be wrong....only time will tell.


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## Qsw

DeadGuy said:


> When people are manipulated and sent to vote for the wrong reasons and then sent to Tahrir Square to protest against something that didn't even happen just to let others know what they're capable of doing if they're not the winners? Sorry but there's nothing "democratic" about that.........
> 
> However he "won" the presidency and he is now in charge, and like you said, it will take time to be able to tell how he/they're planning to run the country, but frankly speaking? The MB's history of hypocrisy and how low they can get to get what they want isn't really something that would make me expect much from them anyway :ranger:


I never claimed manipulation was democratic, so I don't see why you're bringing that up. In any case, do you have any evidence that people were manipulated to go to Tahrir or to vote for the MB? Willingly accepting a bribe or payment is different from being manipulated or blackmailed. I think the majority of people there probably do believe in the MB and their goals, the MB has genuine support among many people here like it or not. Calling them names won't change that 

Frankly I don't think bribes played a significant role in this election. It's one of those things that seems impossible to prove. The law has to be brought down to scare campaign reps away from doing things like that, and right now it doesn't appear to be in any shape to do so. There are too many violent or bigger crimes going on to focus on things like that right now it seems.

My point was that the democratic process by it's nature leaves a lot of people dissatisfied, but in the end we have to accept the result and move on, as long as the voting process itself was clean for the most part. As you and I agree, time will be the judge, and I'm also not getting my hopes up 

The people and the revolutionary candidates have to accept the blame for the failure to get a better choice in the second round. The candidates, it seems to me, were all too confident that they would win so they decided not to unite. The people following the candidates didn't seem to put much pressure on them to do so. Hopefully next time around the same mistake won't repeat itself. 

About the Christians being prevented from voting, it is disgusting, but I doubt anyone expected the process to be completely clean. Granted, this was a surprise to me, but after I read about it, it seems to be in some town where the population is divided and tribal affiliations dominate. Considering some of the news that's come out of towns like that, this seems very mild in comparison. Not happy about it, disgusting really, but the army probably had it's hands full trying to secure the major cities. Hopefully one day in Egypt we won't need to have police or army stationed in some places to prevent these kinds of issues from coming up.


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## The Surfer

MaidenScotland said:


> To be honest they are not happy with who is president...
> 
> I only know of two people who voted for MB.. lol


Actually none of us voted for the MB, we voted for a new democratic project in which they gave promises to go for it ,, other than that we all know the way to Tahrir Square a.k.a "Liberation Square".


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## DeadGuy

Qsw said:


> I never claimed manipulation was democratic, so I don't see why you're bringing that up. In any case, do you have any evidence that people were manipulated to go to Tahrir or to vote for the MB? Willingly accepting a bribe or payment is different from being manipulated or blackmailed. I think the majority of people there probably do believe in the MB and their goals, the MB has genuine support among many people here like it or not. Calling them names won't change that
> 
> Frankly I don't think bribes played a significant role in this election. It's one of those things that seems impossible to prove. The law has to be brought down to scare campaign reps away from doing things like that, and right now it doesn't appear to be in any shape to do so. There are too many violent or bigger crimes going on to focus on things like that right now it seems.
> 
> My point was that the democratic process by it's nature leaves a lot of people dissatisfied, but in the end we have to accept the result and move on, as long as the voting process itself was clean for the most part. As you and I agree, time will be the judge, and I'm also not getting my hopes up
> 
> The people and the revolutionary candidates have to accept the blame for the failure to get a better choice in the second round. The candidates, it seems to me, were all too confident that they would win so they decided not to unite. The people following the candidates didn't seem to put much pressure on them to do so. Hopefully next time around the same mistake won't repeat itself.
> 
> About the Christians being prevented from voting, it is disgusting, but I doubt anyone expected the process to be completely clean. Granted, this was a surprise to me, but after I read about it, it seems to be in some town where the population is divided and tribal affiliations dominate. Considering some of the news that's come out of towns like that, this seems very mild in comparison. Not happy about it, disgusting really, but the army probably had it's hands full trying to secure the major cities. Hopefully one day in Egypt we won't need to have police or army stationed in some places to prevent these kinds of issues from coming up.


I didn't bring "that" up cause you're claiming that manipulation is democratic, I brought it up cause you're saying that the results are the outcome of a democratic process..........Well it's far from being democratic I'm afraid......

Those who "believe" in the MB do that cause MB speaks to them in the name of Islam, and they are being convinced that what the MB's doing is for Islam, not for MB's seniors in charge, and when the MB's "support" comes to surface only of times of voting, don't think it should be described as genuine.

It was really funny for you to ask if I have any evidence that people were manipulated to go to Tahrir or to vote for the MB............."Lack" of "evidence" that would prove something to be against a faulted "law" doesn't make it right...........


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## MaidenScotland

ask a women from the villages why she voted for her candidate and the usual answer is I was told to... although I did read one man was going to divorce his wife for not voting the right way.


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## DeadGuy

The Surfer said:


> Actually none of us voted for the MB, we voted for a new democratic project in which they gave promises to go for it ,, other than that we all know the way to Tahrir Square a.k.a "Liberation Square".


The Israelis did it, they voted for Mursi so they can start a war on Egypt


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## aykalam

MaidenScotland said:


> ask a women from the villages why she voted for her candidate and the usual answer is I was told to... although I did read one man was going to divorce his wife for not voting the right way.


Good for her :clap2: and good riddance


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## aykalam

DeadGuy said:


> The Israelis did it, they voted for Mursi so they can start a war on Egypt


really?


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## DeadGuy

aykalam said:


> really?


Nah, not really, Copts did it cause they wanna play the victim's role


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## Qsw

DeadGuy said:


> I didn't bring "that" up cause you're claiming that manipulation is democratic, I brought it up cause you're saying that the results are the outcome of a democratic process..........Well it's far from being democratic I'm afraid......
> 
> Those who "believe" in the MB do that cause MB speaks to them in the name of Islam, and they are being convinced that what the MB's doing is for Islam, not for MB's seniors in charge, and when the MB's "support" comes to surface only of times of voting, don't think it should be described as genuine.
> 
> It was really funny for you to ask if I have any evidence that people were manipulated to go to Tahrir or to vote for the MB............."Lack" of "evidence" that would prove something to be against a faulted "law" doesn't make it right...........



I don't understand why you're saying the process hasn't been democratic. People voted in relatively clean elections. I think the elections committee has integrity, and that they would have called for a re-election or disqualification if they thought the violations were too many or would affect the outcome...

The MB's support comes from Islamists, probably from poor people who have been beneficiaries of their charity, and I'm guessing quite a few different types of people. I dislike that they operate as a charitable organization while they have clear political goals, that is the kind of thing that should have been dealt with before the elections, but nothing can be done about that now. 

The concept of innocent before proven guilty applies to the MB as well, even if we don't trust them or their motives. I certainly won't start believing rumors about them or the tactics they used until I see hard evidence.

If there was hard evidence that the MB coerced people into voting for them, I'm sure a lot of people here would be interested in that. I've heard allegations of bribes from both campaigns actually, but it's hard to believe the bribes were enough to affect an election where more than 25 million people participated.


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## expatagogo

DeadGuy said:


> Nah, not really, Copts did it cause they wanna play the victim's role


Anything to get a visa out of Egypt, eh?


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## Qsw

I should add, I think it was irresponsible of the MB to call for demonstrations before the result was officially announced. That is another move that is making me distrust them. Time will tell, I suppose.


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## expatagogo

Qsw said:


> I should add, I think it was irresponsible of the MB to call for demonstrations before the result was officially announced. That is another move that is making me distrust them. Time will tell, I suppose.


I thought that game of chicken with SCAF was an absolutely brilliant move on the MB's part.


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## aykalam

Mohamed Morsi arrives to Cairo's Presidential Palace

Mohamed Morsi arrives to Cairo's Presidential Palace | Al Jazeera Blogs


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## DeadGuy

Qsw said:


> I don't understand why you're saying the process hasn't been democratic. People voted in relatively clean elections. I think the elections committee has integrity, and that they would have called for a re-election or disqualification if they thought the violations were too many or would affect the outcome...
> 
> The MB's support comes from Islamists, probably from poor people who have been beneficiaries of their charity, and I'm guessing quite a few different types of people. I dislike that they operate as a charitable organization while they have clear political goals, that is the kind of thing that should have been dealt with before the elections, but nothing can be done about that now.
> 
> The concept of innocent before proven guilty applies to the MB as well, even if we don't trust them or their motives. I certainly won't start believing rumors about them or the tactics they used until I see hard evidence.
> 
> If there was hard evidence that the MB coerced people into voting for them, I'm sure a lot of people here would be interested in that. I've heard allegations of bribes from both campaigns actually, but it's hard to believe the bribes were enough to affect an election where more than 25 million people participated.


I'm not gonna go into the details of how the MB operates its "beneficial"/charity organization and how involved that is to their political pary, simply cause it's pretty obvious how they operate, with or without _proof_, people can see what's happening..........

But innocent before proven guilty? Seriously? Haven't you heard them moaning about how Islamic it is to vote yes for the constitution amendments? Or to vote for their candidate cause he's Allah's chosen/sent? Haven't you heard them calling people in Tahrir Square drug addicts with no morals before? Or blaming the girls for going to Tahrir Square when the army decided to wipe the street with that girl after getting her naked? But then when it serves their own best, Tahrir Square is the right place! And you want a PROOF?! Well fine! They're saints and the whole election's process was 110% democratic 

You see no matter how carefully strips are painted on a donkey, it will never turn it into a zebra


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## DeadGuy

expatagogo said:


> Anything to get a visa out of Egypt, eh?


Actually it will be a lot harder for moderate Muslims than it will be for Copts with those idiots in charge.........


Besides................Being a member of a terrorist group would qualify you for a quicker visa approval :spit:


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## Qsw

DeadGuy said:


> I'm not gonna go into the details of how the MB operates its "beneficial"/charity organization and how involved that is to their political pary, simply cause it's pretty obvious how they operate, with or without _proof_, people can see what's happening..........
> 
> But innocent before proven guilty? Seriously? Haven't you heard them moaning about how Islamic it is to vote yes for the constitution amendments? Or to vote for their candidate cause he's Allah's chosen/sent? Haven't you heard them calling people in Tahrir Square drug addicts with no morals before? Or blaming the girls for going to Tahrir Square when the army decided to wipe the street with that girl after getting her naked? But then when it serves their own best, Tahrir Square is the right place! And you want a PROOF?! Well fine! They're saints and the whole election's process was 110% democratic
> 
> You see no matter how carefully strips are painted on a donkey, it will never turn it into a zebra


I haven't heard Brotherhood representatives make those statements, but then again I don't tend to watch a lot of TV. Is there any place where I can find them? I highly doubt that Shafiq wouldn't have jumped on the opportunity to use that kind of material against them. 

I'm certainly not going to defend them, it's enough that I've seen them break their promises since I've arrived. But claiming that the entire election is undemocratic because of their actions is far-fetched.

My main point about the evidence was the claim that they "manipulated" the elections. As long as they haven't coerced anyone, and people voted for them willingly, then there isn't any manipulation going on. They are just using the system that is in place, obviously it's not ideal, but I think the elections had to take place as soon as possible given the condition the country is in.

It's not as if I am happy about the result, but I think it's the best option for the country at least for the next 6 months to a year. Had the second round choice been between Morsi and a less divisive figure, it's possible we wouldn't have had to deal with that choice. What I am happy about, is that Egypt now has a chance to move forward, we'll see if it's one step forward and two steps back.


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## Amgad

mabroook


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## Githa

it is actually not upto us rich foreigners to come to this beautiful country and tell people how to vote and rule this country - just because we think we are so much wiser about politics than they are - we can just look to our own country and see who "we" choose to rule the country and how many wrong decisions they come up with - because we / they are oh so clever


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## aykalam

Githa said:


> it is actually not upto us rich foreigners to come to this beautiful country and tell people how to vote and rule this country - just because we think we are so much wiser about politics than they are - we can just look to our own country and see who "we" choose to rule the country and how many wrong decisions they come up with - because we / they are oh so clever


us rich foreigners? speak for yourself 

besides, this is a forum for expats to express their opinions freely, it's not like we are about to go up to Morsi or anyone else and tell them how to run the country


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## MaidenScotland

Githa said:


> it is actually not upto us rich foreigners to come to this beautiful country and tell people how to vote and rule this country - just because we think we are so much wiser about politics than they are - we can just look to our own country and see who "we" choose to rule the country and how many wrong decisions they come up with - because we / they are oh so clever




Well as sure as hell poor Egyptians can't make any difference, but "rich" foreigners probably can.. 

This is a forum for foreigners to have discussions/debates/arguments.. regardless of their wealth/political/religious leanings.


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## MaidenScotland

At a major conference supporting Muhammad Morsi—standing on a platform with a big picture of Morsi smiling behind him and with any number of leading Brotherhood figures, including Khairat el-Shater, sitting alongside—a sheikh went on a harangue, quoting Koran 9:12, a jihadi favorite, to portray all those Egyptians who do not vote for Morsi—the other half of Egypt, the secularists and Copts who voted for Shafiq—as "resisters of the Sharia of Allah," and "infidel leaders" whom true Muslims must "fight" and subjugate.
The video of this sheikh was shown on the talk show of Egyptian commentator Hala Sarhan, who proceeded to exclaim "This is unbelievable! How is this talk related to the campaign of Morsi?!" A guest on her show correctly elaborated: "Note his [the sheikh's] use of the word 'fight'—'fight the infidel leaders' [Koran 9:12]; this is open incitement to commit violence against anyone who disagrees with them…. How can such a radical sheikh speak such words, even as [Brotherhood leaders like] Khairat el-Shater just sit there?" Nor did the Brotherhood denounce or distance itself from this sheikh's calls to jihad and takfir.



as


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## MaidenScotland

The Politics of Foreign Investment in Egypt | Sean Rocha


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## DeadGuy

Qsw said:


> I haven't heard Brotherhood representatives make those statements, but then again I don't tend to watch a lot of TV. Is there any place where I can find them? I highly doubt that Shafiq wouldn't have jumped on the opportunity to use that kind of material against them.
> 
> I'm certainly not going to defend them, it's enough that I've seen them break their promises since I've arrived. But claiming that the entire election is undemocratic because of their actions is far-fetched.
> 
> My main point about the evidence was the claim that they "manipulated" the elections. As long as they haven't coerced anyone, and people voted for them willingly, then there isn't any manipulation going on. They are just using the system that is in place, obviously it's not ideal, but I think the elections had to take place as soon as possible given the condition the country is in.
> 
> It's not as if I am happy about the result, but I think it's the best option for the country at least for the next 6 months to a year. Had the second round choice been between Morsi and a less divisive figure, it's possible we wouldn't have had to deal with that choice. What I am happy about, is that Egypt now has a chance to move forward, we'll see if it's one step forward and two steps back.


Never mind.........Like I said earlier, they're saints and the whole election's process was 110% democratic


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## DeadGuy

Githa said:


> it is actually not upto us rich foreigners to come to this beautiful country and tell people how to vote and rule this country - just because we think we are so much wiser about politics than they are - we can just look to our own country and see who "we" choose to rule the country and how many wrong decisions they come up with - because we / they are oh so clever


I'm the complete opposite of that  

No one's telling anyone how to do anything.........People CHOOSE to do what they want..........


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## DeadGuy

MaidenScotland said:


> At a major conference supporting Muhammad Morsi—standing on a platform with a big picture of Morsi smiling behind him and with any number of leading Brotherhood figures, including Khairat el-Shater, sitting alongside—a sheikh went on a harangue, quoting Koran 9:12, a jihadi favorite, to portray all those Egyptians who do not vote for Morsi—the other half of Egypt, the secularists and Copts who voted for Shafiq—as "resisters of the Sharia of Allah," and "infidel leaders" whom true Muslims must "fight" and subjugate.
> The video of this sheikh was shown on the talk show of Egyptian commentator Hala Sarhan, who proceeded to exclaim "This is unbelievable! How is this talk related to the campaign of Morsi?!" A guest on her show correctly elaborated: "Note his [the sheikh's] use of the word 'fight'—'fight the infidel leaders' [Koran 9:12]; this is open incitement to commit violence against anyone who disagrees with them…. How can such a radical sheikh speak such words, even as [Brotherhood leaders like] Khairat el-Shater just sit there?" Nor did the Brotherhood denounce or distance itself from this sheikh's calls to jihad and takfir.
> 
> 
> 
> as


The sad thing is (Well, was), while some people were ashamed of such statements/behavior, others were actually _proud _that the Brotherhood was openly supporting what they described as _true Islamic teachings_.......

I wouldn't be surprised if the videos showing scandals of that kind started disappearing/being blocked in a while.......


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## MaidenScotland

As someone who had the fear of god instilled in them as a child... I know it is so very easy to talk/coerce/shame/bully/insist.. all in the name of god and some people will follow without question.


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## Qsw

DeadGuy said:


> Never mind.........Like I said earlier, they're saints and the whole election's process was 110% democratic


Didn't realize you thought that! Interesting viewpoint. I personally think they were successful given the conditions they had to take place in. So while far from ideal, the country couldn't wait until we had ideal conditions. When you are ready to back up your claims I am willing to listen to them.

I'm done on the subject of the MB winning the election, I think I've made my position really clear. I would have liked a liberal to win, a liberal didn't (and I don't think any of them are liberals), I'm going to accept it and move on, having faith in the elections commission that they would have called it off if they thought the violations affected the outcome significantly.


----------



## DeadGuy

Qsw said:


> Didn't realize you thought that! Interesting viewpoint. I personally think they were successful given the conditions they had to take place in. So while far from ideal, the country couldn't wait until we had ideal conditions. When you are ready to back up your claims I am willing to listen to them.
> 
> I'm done on the subject of the MB winning the election, I think I've made my position really clear. I would have liked a liberal to win, a liberal didn't (and I don't think any of them are liberals), I'm going to accept it and move on, having faith in the elections commission that they would have called it off if they thought the violations affected the outcome significantly.


They're not "claims", and they're definitely not "mine" 

No one will ever choose what to see/believe for you, besides, how "hard" any evidence would be is subjected to personal judgment, what would convince me won't necessarily convince others, specially others of different backgrounds/agendas..........


Congrats for the MB's fair, democratic, clean historic winning :clap2:


----------



## Qsw

MaidenScotland said:


> As someone who had the fear of god instilled in them as a child... I know it is so very easy to talk/coerce/shame/bully/insist.. all in the name of god and some people will follow without question.


Yes it is, and I don't like it. It's not as if liberals are happy the MB won. But I have faith in the people of Egypt, I know they won't allow themselves to be fooled again. The Islamist parties were very successful in the first round in Alexandria for example, but they couldn't get the first spot here in the presidential elections. What happened to them, I wonder? Did people start to hold them accountable?

Let's see if the judiciary decides to ban the MB and maybe the FJP according to that case that was filed against them. Seems to me they have successfully managed to launch the FJP, and neither the judiciary or the SCAF did/have done anything about it, so that tells me at least at the moment their operations are legal. 

It's not as if they have suddenly monopolized politics in this country, they only got 13 million votes, and if you count the votes of Aboul Fotouh and Morsi, they add up to maybe 10 million (and that's if you assume the worst case scenario, that all the votes that went to Aboul Fotouh were Islamist votes, obviously not the case). Shafiq got over 12 million. Seems to me they are heading straight for a loss if they don't give someone other than their base a good reason to vote for them. They already pulled out all the stops for this election, and it didn't give them a crushing victory.


----------



## Qsw

DeadGuy said:


> They're not "claims", and they're definitely not "mine"
> 
> No one will ever choose what to see/believe for you, besides, how "hard" any evidence would be is subjected to personal judgment, what would convince me won't necessarily convince others, specially others of different backgrounds/agendas..........
> 
> 
> Congrats for the MB's fair, democratic, clean historic winning :clap2:


Ok, there is obviously not going to be a discussion here. I'm surprised Shafiq isn't using all this evidence you have, instead he accepted defeat and even said he would be willing to work with Morsi. You should get all these facts out straight away to all the Egyptian papers, it is your patriotic duty. 

The world world expected Egypt, with a barely functioning police force, to have 100% clean elections. All these revelations are so shocking!


----------



## DeadGuy

Qsw said:


> Ok, there is obviously not going to be a discussion here. I'm surprised Shafiq isn't using all this evidence you have, instead he accepted defeat and even said he would be willing to work with Morsi. You should get all these facts out straight away to all the Egyptian papers, it is your patriotic duty.
> 
> The world world expected Egypt, with a barely functioning police force, to have 100% clean elections. All these revelations are so shocking!


When he said he'd put effort to make Copts happy Shafeeq was accused of being a an infidel COPT himself and just that was used against him, so you wanted him to risk losing more votes by trying to convince people that they're being fooled by the MB's "Allah's sent" [email protected]? Seriously?

Me providing evidence to Egyptian papers? Sorry but what papers have you been reading? Italian papers?


----------



## Qsw

DeadGuy said:


> When he said he'd put effort to make Copts happy Shafeeq was accused of being a an infidel COPT himself and just that was used against him, so you wanted him to risk losing more votes by trying to convince people that they're being fooled by the MB's "Allah's sent" [email protected]? Seriously?
> 
> Me providing evidence to Egyptian papers? Sorry but what papers have you been reading? Italian papers?


And now that the elections are over, why do you think he is silent about all the violations and all the coercion that went on according to you? He even plans to form a political party! He must like losing in unfair elections. All the rest of the candidates too, they must like letting the MB getting away with all these violations, it's not as if they actually wanted to win or anything. 

Clearly they aren't going to wait for, let's say, >95% clean elections, like most Egyptians.

The MB only got 5 million votes the first time around. What happened to all the Egyptian Muslims? Didn't all the MB's tactics work on them? Sure doesn't seem like it. Why did the 50% remaining not run to the polls to vote? I mean, these tactics are so effective right?

You can take all this evidence to whichever papers you like. I only read Al-Masry Al-Youm's websites (mostly the English one) so if you can start with that it'd be nice.

Frankly I am tired of defending the elections, the fact is we had to have elections, they took place, now we have to deal with it. The alternative of questioning the process won't get us anywhere, the SCAF wanted to move on (of course, they made sure to keep their nice position), the people wanted to move on, almost everybody wanted a better second round set of candidates, the blame goes to all. I think almost all Egyptians realize that, and are saving their energy to oppose the MB should they start to try and tamper with the democratic process. I myself can't wait to have a liberal candidate to vote for.


----------



## Qsw

I'm not denying there were violations, there are at least 400 complaints recorded by both campaigns after all, and I'm sure there were many others. Was it enough to invalidate the results? I don't think so. Clearly the situation hasn't improved over the last year, putting off the hard decisions doesn't help anybody. I think Egyptians are mostly going to move forward with caution and be vigilant. 

Next time, with an effective police force, the violations can be lessened and we can hopefully have strong opposition to the MB. I don't like their tactics, I don't like their politics, but they won what I believe was a mostly fair election. It isn't the result liberals want, but we have to deal with it and focus on getting our act together rather for the next election.


----------



## Whitedesert

Qsw said:


> And now that the elections are over, why do you think he is silent about all the violations and all the coercion that went on according to you? He even plans to form a political party! He must like losing in unfair elections. All the rest of the candidates too, they must like letting the MB getting away with all these violations, it's not as if they actually wanted to win or anything.
> 
> Clearly they aren't going to wait for, let's say, >95% clean elections, like most Egyptians.
> 
> The MB only got 5 million votes the first time around. What happened to all the Egyptian Muslims? Didn't all the MB's tactics work on them? Sure doesn't seem like it. Why did the 50% remaining not run to the polls to vote? I mean, these tactics are so effective right?
> 
> You can take all this evidence to whichever papers you like. I only read Al-Masry Al-Youm's websites (mostly the English one) so if you can start with that it'd be nice.
> 
> Frankly I am tired of defending the elections, the fact is we had to have elections, they took place, now we have to deal with it. The alternative of questioning the process won't get us anywhere, the SCAF wanted to move on (of course, they made sure to keep their nice position), the people wanted to move on, almost everybody wanted a better second round set of candidates, the blame goes to all. I think almost all Egyptians realize that, and are saving their energy to oppose the MB should they start to try and tamper with the democratic process. I myself can't wait to have a liberal candidate to vote for.


 In my humble view nothing of this matters much now. Mursi is the new President. That is fact. The electorate maybe voted themselves into a weird kind of stalemate, but Galas, that is done. What is important is that a President was elected, and fairly free and fair. What is equally important is that he was elected democratically, not imposed by a military junta. That is progress! So lets see what Mursi does.:ranger:


----------



## Qsw

Whitedesert said:


> In my humble view nothing of this matters much now. Mursi is the new President. That is fact. The electorate maybe voted themselves into a weird kind of stalemate, but Galas, that is done. What is important is that a President was elected, and fairly free and fair. What is equally important is that he was elected democratically, not imposed by a military junta. That is progress! So lets see what Mursi does.:ranger:


You're absolutely correct  It's time to wait now and form a strong opposition bloc. I see this as a step forward, and hopefully it will encourage more political parties to form, stronger candidates to run, and more Egyptians to go out and vote in the next elections. There's already evidence that the MB are losing ground in major cities, and the Egyptian people have already proven they are going to hold them accountable.


----------



## aykalam

And Shafiq has left the building lane: well he's a pilot isn't he?

Shafiq left for Abu Dhabi early on Tuesday, arriving at Cairo International Airport 15 minutes before the departure of his plane, MENA reported.

Shafiq congratulates Morsy, leaves for Abu Dhabi | Egypt Independent


----------



## Qsw

aykalam said:


> And Shafiq has left the building lane: well he's a pilot isn't he?
> 
> Shafiq left for Abu Dhabi early on Tuesday, arriving at Cairo International Airport 15 minutes before the departure of his plane, MENA reported.
> 
> Shafiq congratulates Morsy, leaves for Abu Dhabi | Egypt Independent


Can't say I like the guy, but I still believe in innocent until proven guilty. I wonder if it's just a vacation to get away from a hectic campaign, or if it runs deeper than that.


----------



## alexvw

Qsw said:


> Can't say I like the guy, but I still believe in innocent until proven guilty. I wonder if it's just a vacation to get away from a hectic campaign, or if it runs deeper than that.


Shafiq didn't look too stressed, when he was walking through Katameya Heights on Sunday, before the announcement of rhe results...


----------



## DeadGuy

Qsw said:


> And now that the elections are over, why do you think he is silent about all the violations and all the coercion that went on according to you? He even plans to form a political party! He must like losing in unfair elections. All the rest of the candidates too, they must like letting the MB getting away with all these violations, it's not as if they actually wanted to win or anything.
> 
> Clearly they aren't going to wait for, let's say, >95% clean elections, like most Egyptians.
> 
> The MB only got 5 million votes the first time around. What happened to all the Egyptian Muslims? Didn't all the MB's tactics work on them? Sure doesn't seem like it. Why did the 50% remaining not run to the polls to vote? I mean, these tactics are so effective right?
> 
> You can take all this evidence to whichever papers you like. I only read Al-Masry Al-Youm's websites (mostly the English one) so if you can start with that it'd be nice.
> 
> Frankly I am tired of defending the elections, the fact is we had to have elections, they took place, now we have to deal with it. The alternative of questioning the process won't get us anywhere, the SCAF wanted to move on (of course, they made sure to keep their nice position), the people wanted to move on, almost everybody wanted a better second round set of candidates, the blame goes to all. I think almost all Egyptians realize that, and are saving their energy to oppose the MB should they start to try and tamper with the democratic process. I myself can't wait to have a liberal candidate to vote for.


Cause that's the difference between Shafeeq and the MB, Shafeeq accepted the results (Probably was forced to accept it) while the MB gathered their supporters in Tahrir Sqaure to protest against a result that wasn't even announced back then threatening of going violent if their idiot wasn't announced a president.

Like I said earlier, congrats for the MB's fair, democratic, clean historic winning :clap2:


----------



## DeadGuy

Whitedesert said:


> In my humble view nothing of this matters much now. Mursi is the new President. That is fact. The electorate maybe voted themselves into a weird kind of stalemate, but Galas, that is done. What is important is that a President was elected, and fairly free and fair. What is equally important is that he was elected democratically, *not imposed by a military junta*. That is progress! So lets see what Mursi does.:ranger:


Mmmmmmmm, of course SCAF had absolutely nothing to do with it 

But I agree, and I already said it before, regardless of how he made it there, it will take time to see what's gonna happen, and that's what really matters like you said :eyebrows:


----------



## aykalam

A political advisor of President-elect Mohamed Morsy said a Copt and woman would be appointed as vice-presidents.

Morsy to appoint Copt, woman to vice presidency, says advisor | Egypt Independent


----------



## Qsw

aykalam said:


> A political advisor of President-elect Mohamed Morsy said a Copt and woman would be appointed as vice-presidents.
> 
> Morsy to appoint Copt, woman to vice presidency, says advisor | Egypt Independent


I wonder if he will appoint a third VP with an Islamist background. 

So we go from 30 years of no vice president, to a desperation move of assigning a VP, and now we are looking at possibly more than 2 VPs at the same time! As far as I know this is a powerless position anyway, I was hoping he would reserve his "minority" cards for positions like the prime minister... still going to wait and see.


----------



## Qsw

alexvw said:


> Shafiq didn't look too stressed, when he was walking through Katameya Heights on Sunday, before the announcement of rhe results...


Given some of the accusations I heard he leveled against the MB, I'm not surprised he doesn't feel too comfortable hanging around at least in the beginning. But he's also announced he's planning to form a political party (much to my dismay, we need secular forces and liberals/revolutionaries to unite), so I'd be surprised if he's planning to leave for good.


----------



## Qsw

DeadGuy said:


> Cause that's the difference between Shafeeq and the MB, Shafeeq accepted the results (Probably was forced to accept it) while the MB gathered their supporters in Tahrir Sqaure to protest against a result that wasn't even announced back then threatening of going violent if their idiot wasn't announced a president.
> 
> Like I said earlier, congrats for the MB's fair, democratic, clean historic winning :clap2:


 according to you the MB managed to intimidate the SCAF, Shafiq, the presidential elections committee, and the judiciary all in one go 

Anyway, you don't need to reply to my posts "congratulating me on the MB's win", I am not an MB supporter, it was a mistake trying to have a conversation with you in the first place.


----------



## expatagogo

Qsw said:


> according to you the MB managed to intimidate the SCAF, Shafiq, the presidential elections committee, and the judiciary all in one go.


Actually, they did.

Muslim Brotherhood Tallies and Keeping Egypt Honest - Blog - The Arabist

This blog post from The Arabist explains how.

_Last week's anxiety-ridden wait for the winner of the Egyptian presidential election to be declared was perceived by many as a game of shadow boxing between SCAF and the MB — whereby the former put pressure on the latter or gave itself the option of rigging the election for Ahmed Shafiq. As many have noted, only the MB could have had the national organization to collect the tallies of votes polling station by polling station, raising the question of whether the regime could have gotten away with rigging the elections if Aboul Fotouh or Sabahi had been in the runoff against Shafiq._


----------



## DeadGuy

Qsw said:


> according to you the MB managed to intimidate the SCAF, Shafiq, the presidential elections committee, and the judiciary all in one go
> 
> Anyway, you don't need to reply to my posts "congratulating me on the MB's win", I am not an MB supporter, it was a mistake trying to have a conversation with you in the first place.


Not really, that's not what I'm saying, that's what the _heat _in the few days between the voting and results' announcing is saying, what I would say about it is that the MBs played a risky game with the elections, and they managed to _win_ it somehow, and it's up to them now whether they wanna keep winning, or..........

Won't comment on you denying being an MB supporter, whether you are or not is not something that I'd be concerned about..............

But you weren't trying to have a conversation, you were demanding me to provide "evidence" the whole time


----------



## DeadGuy

expatagogo said:


> Actually, they did.
> 
> Muslim Brotherhood Tallies and Keeping Egypt*Honest - Blog - The Arabist
> 
> This blog post from The Arabist explains how.
> 
> _Last week's anxiety-ridden wait for the winner of the Egyptian presidential election to be declared was perceived by many as a game of shadow boxing between SCAF and the MB — whereby the former put pressure on the latter or gave itself the option of rigging the election for Ahmed Shafiq. As many have noted, only the MB could have had the national organization to collect the tallies of votes polling station by polling station, raising the question of whether the regime could have gotten away with rigging the elections if Aboul Fotouh or Sabahi had been in the runoff against Shafiq._


Mmmm............That's the writer's opinion! I need evidence


----------



## Whitedesert

aykalam said:


> A political advisor of President-elect Mohamed Morsy said a Copt and woman would be appointed as vice-presidents.
> 
> Morsy to appoint Copt, woman to vice presidency, says advisor | Egypt Independent


 It would grab my attention if it was Prime Minister, or Minister of anything, those are exec positions. VP is like Queen Elizabeth 11, but without the blue blood.


----------



## MaidenScotland

Whitedesert said:


> It would grab my attention if it was Prime Minister, or Minister of anything, those are exec positions. VP is like Queen Elizabeth 11, but without the blue blood.




Spot on... it is a peace-meal title nothing else... copt and a women, promises kept


----------



## aykalam

No more than token positions so they can tick them off the list


----------



## MaidenScotland

aykalam said:


> No more than token positions so they can tick them off the list




No need they done it all in one ... but not a great way to get unemployment down is it?


----------



## aykalam

it's funny that whenever they say a copt and a woman nobody thinks they could end up with two women VP, one muslim and one copt.


----------



## Qsw

DeadGuy said:


> Not really, that's not what I'm saying, that's what the _heat _in the few days between the voting and results' announcing is saying, what I would say about it is that the MBs played a risky game with the elections, and they managed to _win_ it somehow, and it's up to them now whether they wanna keep winning, or..........
> 
> Won't comment on you denying being an MB supporter, whether you are or not is not something that I'd be concerned about..............
> 
> But you weren't trying to have a conversation, you were demanding me to provide "evidence" the whole time


That's how a conversation goes, if you make a claim you have to be willing to back it up. Some guy on the street could level a whole bunch of accusations against someone/some group, I wouldn't believe it unless I saw some actual evidence. I tried looking around for that example you mentioned of the MB and the woman that got beat up by the army (disgusting) and couldn't find anything. Granted I am searching in English, but I think the media would have jumped on anything like that. Same thing with the "drugs" claim that you made. Didn't bother with the rest.

Like I said I don't watch TV, but all the actual evidence that I can find doesn't support your claims. If you're not going to back them up, don't expect me to take them seriously. I liked seeing the actual facts you provided in the other thread.

How do you explain this: Youth movements pledge to support Morsy | Egypt Independent... is everybody in Egypt now so afraid of the Brotherhood that they are willing to overlook the violations you claim made this election undemocratic?

How about this: Egypt's new president moves into his offices, begins choosing a Cabinet - CNN.com

I won't even go into how absurd it would be for Obama to take such a risky move like congratulating the MB if he didn't think the election was democratic, he could easily have tasked someone lower down the chain with the "congratulations" if he wanted to.

How about Wael Ghonim? Was he also so intimidated to say "The first elected civilian Egyptian president in the history of modern Egypt. The revolution continues." (quoted from the article). 

All you've done so far from what I recollect has been to call the election undemocratic, accuse the MB of rigging it and a bunch of other stuff, and when I ask you to prove some of these claims, you just respond with a sarcastic remark and a bunch of smileys. You also like to make statements like "clearly the MB are saints" which no-one in this entire thread has said but you.

Expatagogo's article just points out that the MB may have helped keep the army honest, and the article writer even seems to suggest this could be a good thing for Egypt in the future. I don't think the MB will be as forthcoming with election results when they aren't on the winning side as I don't trust them, but it is a good point to explore.

The election wasn't 100% clean. I don't think any election is, even in the U.S. you hear occasional claims of ballots disappearing etc. But you are claiming something completely different from almost everything I've read when you say they were undemocratic.

By the way, here is a quote from the article expatagogo linked: "The results that were announced for the Morsi/Shafiq contest this morning only differed from the MB figures by about 0.06%, which ranks this election among the least manipulated in Egyptian history". So, do you have anything to backup the complete opposite conclusion that the author presented? I would love to see some evidence that the MB manipulated the election or electorate on such a massive scale. 

Defending the electoral process has to be done not just when we like the candidate or party who won.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think the SCAF are intimidated so easily. They already got what they wanted when they basically removed any power from Morsi over them, and with the parliament gone they know who really calls the shots.


----------



## MaidenScotland

At least we can discuss it... two years ago we couldn't have.. long may freedom of speech last


----------



## MaidenScotland

The problem was the revolution had no back up plan.. getting rid of Mubarak was the main objective with no thought of what happens next.
Trying to organise yourself into a political party overnight is an impossibility.. MB were waiting in the wings as the only organised group.

To be truly democratic will take years.. there has to be organised opposition .


----------



## Qsw

MaidenScotland said:


> At least we can discuss it... two years ago we couldn't have.. long may freedom of speech last


Yes, every Egyptian has to be thankful for the revolution. I am happy that we are moving forward, and step by step, one day we may actually have a democratic republic that enforces basic human rights. 

It saddens me that the MB got the first shot at building a new Egypt, but as long as there are elections in 4 years time (hopefully sooner if the conditions are right), the people can hold them accountable. I am happy that they didn't get the crushing victory many expected them to get, it shows there is a lot of promise for the future.

Next time, maybe the international monitors can get some real power, they seemed to have it in the first round but not in the second.


----------



## Eco-Mariner

In a way the M.B. could be he hammer to crack the nut of Egypt's military control over its people.
I don't believe the youth movement for change would have had any guts to challenge SCAF.

I for one want to see transparency, even if the M.B. are at the other end of the scale, they may halt the old-guard corrupt elements in their first Parliament. Then maybe the next elections can see the emergence of the centre more liberal voters and create the democratic republic it really desires.


Eco-Mariner.


----------



## DeadGuy

Qsw said:


> That's how a conversation goes, if you make a claim you have to be willing to back it up. Some guy on the street could level a whole bunch of accusations against someone/some group, I wouldn't believe it unless I saw some actual evidence. I tried looking around for that example you mentioned of the MB and the woman that got beat up by the army (disgusting) and couldn't find anything. Granted I am searching in English, but I think the media would have jumped on anything like that. Same thing with the "drugs" claim that you made. Didn't bother with the rest.
> 
> Like I said I don't watch TV, but all the actual evidence that I can find doesn't support your claims. If you're not going to back them up, don't expect me to take them seriously. I liked seeing the actual facts you provided in the other thread.
> 
> How do you explain this: Youth movements pledge to support Morsy | Egypt Independent... is everybody in Egypt now so afraid of the Brotherhood that they are willing to overlook the violations you claim made this election undemocratic?
> 
> How about this: Egypt's new president moves into his offices, begins choosing a Cabinet - CNN.com
> 
> I won't even go into how absurd it would be for Obama to take such a risky move like congratulating the MB if he didn't think the election was democratic, he could easily have tasked someone lower down the chain with the "congratulations" if he wanted to.
> 
> How about Wael Ghonim? Was he also so intimidated to say "The first elected civilian Egyptian president in the history of modern Egypt. The revolution continues." (quoted from the article).
> 
> All you've done so far from what I recollect has been to call the election undemocratic, accuse the MB of rigging it and a bunch of other stuff, and when I ask you to prove some of these claims, you just respond with a sarcastic remark and a bunch of smileys. You also like to make statements like "clearly the MB are saints" which no-one in this entire thread has said but you.
> 
> Expatagogo's article just points out that the MB may have helped keep the army honest, and the article writer even seems to suggest this could be a good thing for Egypt in the future. I don't think the MB will be as forthcoming with election results when they aren't on the winning side as I don't trust them, but it is a good point to explore.
> 
> The election wasn't 100% clean. I don't think any election is, even in the U.S. you hear occasional claims of ballots disappearing etc. But you are claiming something completely different from almost everything I've read when you say they were undemocratic.
> 
> By the way, here is a quote from the article expatagogo linked: "The results that were announced for the Morsi/Shafiq contest this morning only differed from the MB figures by about 0.06%, which ranks this election among the least manipulated in Egyptian history". So, do you have anything to backup the complete opposite conclusion that the author presented? I would love to see some evidence that the MB manipulated the election or electorate on such a massive scale.
> 
> Defending the electoral process has to be done not just when we like the candidate or party who won.
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but I don't think the SCAF are intimidated so easily. They already got what they wanted when they basically removed any power from Morsi over them, and with the parliament gone they know who really calls the shots.


Obama's congratulations? I'm not a diplomat, but I think that's something called...........etiquette? Which most diplomats/politicians tend to behave accordingly? Besides, USA used to behave the same way with Mubarak, does that mean he was democratically elected? 

And I think Wael Ghonim was pretty clear that he's not supporting the MB, but supporting the revolution against Mubarak regime's figures, or you want me to provide evidence for that too? 

The reason I refused to provide any "evidence" in this thread is the way you tend to "demand" for them before you even think about it, you said you don't watch TV that much, reading one newspaper that prints in English, and today you said your search is executed in English, but yet you disagree with almost everything that I "claim" and demand for "evidence" to be served on a silver plate :eyebrows:

Sorry but if you don't know enough about something, then perhaps you should learn about it instead of demanding others to prove themselves right, then start arguing, cause my "claims" were based on incidents that are known and CLEAR to anyone that's been following what's happening in Egypt in the last +18 months, and sorry to say this, but your lack of knowledge/denial of those "incidents" is not something that I'm responsible to fix/deal with :ranger:

As for how democratic the elections were, if you think manipulating the elections' results is the ONLY form of manipulating the whole election's process then we were talking about 2 complete different topics


----------



## DeadGuy

MaidenScotland said:


> The problem was the revolution had no back up plan.. getting rid of Mubarak was the main objective with no thought of what happens next.
> Trying to organise yourself into a political party overnight is an impossibility.. MB were waiting in the wings as the only organised group.
> 
> To be truly democratic will take years.. there has to be organised opposition .


The MB wasn't only organized, but also had a major element drawing people's attention to it, religion; most Egyptians don't know much about politics due to the way of life during Mubarak's era, but on the other hand, religion is something that all Egyptians do know about, and that's why they were more successful than the Salafis etc., cause they didn't only spoke in the name of Allah, but they were organized with better political knowledge too.....

Opposition? Opposing who? Allah or the regime?


----------



## Qsw

DeadGuy said:


> Obama's congratulations? I'm not a diplomat, but I think that's something called...........etiquette? Which most diplomats/politicians tend to behave accordingly? Besides, USA used to behave the same way with Mubarak, does that mean he was democratically elected?
> 
> And I think Wael Ghonim was pretty clear that he's not supporting the MB, but supporting the revolution against Mubarak regime's figures, or you want me to provide evidence for that too?
> 
> The reason I refused to provide any "evidence" in this thread is the way you tend to "demand" for them before you even think about it, you said you don't watch TV that much, reading one newspaper that prints in English, and today you said your search is executed in English, but yet you disagree with almost everything that I "claim" and demand for "evidence" to be served on a silver plate :eyebrows:
> 
> Sorry but if you don't know enough about something, then perhaps you should learn about it instead of demanding others to prove themselves right, then start arguing, cause my "claims" were based on incidents that are known and CLEAR to anyone that's been following what's happening in Egypt in the last +18 months, and sorry to say this, but your lack of knowledge/denial of those "incidents" is not something that I'm responsible to fix/deal with :ranger:
> 
> As for how democratic the elections were, if you think manipulating the elections' results is the ONLY form of manipulating the whole election's process then we were talking about 2 complete different topics


This time the political process isn't just a matter of supporting an ally, during an election year something like congratulating the MB could cost him dearly. Back when Mubarak was in charge, Egyptian politics in the U.S. wasn't even a real topic, there was little to no political cost to congratulate him, in fact it may have cost a U.S. president more not to do that. But I'm not going to go into that, it's a complex relationship. 

Wael Ghonim is giving legitimacy to the elections by voting for Morsi, I don't think he would want his name attached to such a flawed process as you claimed. The same goes for the other revolutionary groups. I'm pretty much with those groups, so whatever they decide is what I'll most likely follow.

These arguments were all based on my understanding that you claimed the results were manipulated and undemocratic. When you say something is undemocratic, you should first look up the definition of democracy. Here's a decent one:

"Democracy is an egalitarian form of government in which all the citizens of a nation together determine public policy, the laws and the actions of their state, requiring that all citizens (meeting certain qualifications) have an equal opportunity to express their opinion"

That's it. A democracy is only as good as its electorate and the system they have established. If the electorate accept something, political parties will exploit that as much as they can. What alternative was there other than to have the elections now?

The MB mix politics with religion (somehow, despite political parties not being allowed to do that). If the electorate think it's acceptable, and it's legal, they'll do it. I don't like it either, but I don't think these tactics are effective on more than just a tiny minority and their support base. You seem to think they are very effective tactics, this is just a difference of opinion at that point. Lots of Muslims like myself don't like that they are trying to claim themselves as the voice of Islam, and quite simply just look right through all their attempts to shame or claim religious authority. I'm obviously not going to claim that the MB don't try to shame or use religion in their politics, that's as clear as the sun on a hot Egypt day.

How will we know Egypt is going towards a liberal direction? When the FJP and Islamists are defeated in fair elections. The MB probably got the majority of revolutionary vote this time around (whoever bothered to show up or not boycott anyway), I highly doubt they'll get it the next time around.

Anyway, I'm done arguing about the statements you made. That's the beauty of freedom of speech, anybody can claim anything, if you have no interest in backing up your claims with facts I couldn't care less.


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## DeadGuy

Qsw said:


> This time the political process isn't just a matter of supporting an ally, during an election year something like congratulating the MB could cost him dearly. Back when Mubarak was in charge, Egyptian politics in the U.S. wasn't even a real topic, there was little to no political cost to congratulate him, in fact it may have cost a U.S. president more not to do that. But I'm not going to go into that, it's a complex relationship.
> 
> Wael Ghonim is giving legitimacy to the elections by voting for Morsi, I don't think he would want his name attached to such a flawed process as you claimed. The same goes for the other revolutionary groups. I'm pretty much with those groups, so whatever they decide is what I'll most likely follow.
> 
> These arguments were all based on my understanding that you claimed the results were manipulated and undemocratic. When you say something is undemocratic, you should first look up the definition of democracy. Here's a decent one:
> 
> *"Democracy is an egalitarian form of government in which all the citizens of a nation together determine public policy, the laws and the actions of their state, requiring that all citizens (meeting certain qualifications) have an equal opportunity to express their opinion"*
> 
> That's it. A democracy is only as good as its electorate and the system they have established. If the electorate accept something, political parties will exploit that as much as they can. What alternative was there other than to have the elections now?
> 
> The MB mix politics with religion (somehow, despite political parties not being allowed to do that). If the electorate think it's acceptable, and it's legal, they'll do it. I don't like it either, but I don't think these tactics are effective on more than just a tiny minority and their support base. You seem to think they are very effective tactics, this is just a difference of opinion at that point. Lots of Muslims like myself don't like that they are trying to claim themselves as the voice of Islam, and quite simply just look right through all their attempts to shame or claim religious authority. I'm obviously not going to claim that the MB don't try to shame or use religion in their politics, that's as clear as the sun on a hot Egypt day.
> 
> How will we know Egypt is going towards a liberal direction? When the FJP and Islamists are defeated in fair elections. The MB probably got the majority of revolutionary vote this time around (whoever bothered to show up or not boycott anyway), I highly doubt they'll get it the next time around.
> 
> Anyway, I'm done arguing about the statements you made. That's the beauty of freedom of speech, anybody can claim anything, if you have no interest in backing up your claims with facts I couldn't care less.


Totally agreeing with the definition you provided for democracy, and added to that, in a democratic process, people should give their votes to the candidate that's got a program that meets their expectations.

In the mean while, few very clear incidents that happened in here were:

1- The MB used people's stupidity against them and they blindly obeyed giving their votes as a religious duty to a religion, not as a vote going to a program/policy, and in other cases, voters didn't even have a clue what they were doing, and those are NOT a tiny minority 

2- Both the MB and Shafeeq bribed voters, intimidated them in other occasions (Not in a large scale, I never said it was, but still, happened).

3- The MB started showing their own results (Regardless of whether the results they showed were accurate or not, it's not their job to do so) and also Shafeeq's campaign did the same, and BOTH campaigns were confirming their numbers 

4- The MB gathered their supporters in Tahrir Square after months of forgetting where the square is, just hours before the results were to be announced and made it clear that there will be violence if the results did not match the ones they released 

5- The elections' committee's unexplained delay announcing the initial results before complaints are filed, then deciding not to announce any results but the final ones :spit:

I understand that there's nothing can be done about the first problem, but the rest of those problems are the main reasons why I think the process was far from being democratic, and like I said, those "claims" are based on known, clear incidents that everyone's aware of (Well, apart from you obviously), and whether anyone thinks that those reasons won't affect the results or think it would is something that's left for each individual to decide, people's standards are different :ranger:

As for the rest of your post, I never said that the elections should've been postponed or that an alternative should've been found, I do agree that it needed to be held on time as planned, but that does not mean that it was democratic, but if you wanna describe it as a democratic process, so be it, whatever makes you happy 

As for the US diplomacy, it's always been clear, US's best interest comes first, ALWAYS, and their best interest is to at least try and make ties to the new regime, regardless of its nature, regardless of who's elected, they would've done the same :eyebrows:

Wael Ghonim was clear about his statements, and I'm not gonna repeat them


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## MaidenScotland

When ever you have work done here the consensus from the Egyptian worker always seems to be,,

That will do.


and I guess that is why the president is who he is.


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## Eco-Mariner

That's because workers want to get paid over and over again to fix it while laughing at us stupid folk for allowing it.

Can anyone see Morsi fixing anything at the first attempt? He may have avoided bloodshed in the first round because SCAF realised the scale of public demand amongst Muslims, but when their supporters see how weak their party is, we may see another round of fresh elections.

And while the generals laugh at this game with their country-folk, they keep on getting paid for bad work.


Eco-Mariner


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## aykalam

Morsi to deliver speech from Tahrir

Updated: President-elect Morsi to deliver speech to nation from Tahrir on Friday - Egypt - Ahram Online

Security nightmare!


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## MaidenScotland

aykalam said:


> Morsi to deliver speech from Tahrir
> 
> Updated: President-elect Morsi to deliver speech to nation from Tahrir on Friday - Egypt - Ahram Online
> 
> Security nightmare!




I for one hope security is as tight as a drum,


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## aykalam

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/30/w...rk-for-release-of-omar-abdel-rahman.html?_r=1


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## crewmeal

Ladies time to get out your burkas, gentlemen time to grow your beards.


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## MaidenScotland

We aspire to a better tomorrow, a new Egypt and a second republic," Morsi told the judges of the court during a solemn ceremony shown live on state television.

"Today, the Egyptian people laid the foundation of a new life of absolute freedom, a genuine democracy and stability," said Morsi, a 60-year-old US-trained engineer.



:clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2:


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## Eco-Mariner

MaidenScotland said:


> We aspire to a better tomorrow, a new Egypt and a second republic," "Today, the Egyptian people laid the foundation of a new life of absolute freedom, a genuine democracy and stability," said Morsi, a 60-year-old US-trained engineer.
> 
> :clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2:



That's seven doses of clap... I mean crap Maiden.
Whenever has anyone delivered what they promised in the place where they advertise the *Tales of Arabian Nights.*



Eco-Mariner


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## MaidenScotland

Eco-Mariner said:


> That's seven doses of clap... I mean crap Maiden.
> Whenever has anyone delivered what they promised in the place where they advertise the *Tales of Arabian Nights.*
> 
> 
> 
> Eco-Mariner





I am clapping the fact he has said it... whether he delivers is another matter but he knows he is being monitored, however the fact he is now saying he wants the blind sheik freed from American prison doesn't bode well with me.


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## expatagogo

MaidenScotland said:


> I am clapping the fact he has said it... whether he delivers is another matter but he knows he is being monitored, however the fact he is now saying he wants the blind sheik freed from American prison doesn't bode well with me.


That was nothing more than sheikhing up the crowed. I'd love to see him go to D.C. and say that.


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## MaidenScotland

expatagogo said:


> That was nothing more than sheikhing up the crowed. I'd love to see him go to D.C. and say that.




Of course it was but it still doesn't bode well with me..sabre rattling is not good.


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## expatagogo

MaidenScotland said:


> Of course it was but it still doesn't bode well with me..sabre rattling is not good.


It's a bit obvious that the brotherhood isn't at all brotherly.


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## DeadGuy

Robert Fisk: President Morsi, a rigged ballot and a fox's tale that has all of Cairo abuzz - Africa - World - The Independent

An interesting read.......

God bless the democracy


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## CAIRODEMON

DeadGuy said:


> Robert Fisk: President Morsi, a rigged ballot and a fox's tale that has all of Cairo abuzz - Africa - World - The Independent
> 
> An interesting read.......
> 
> God bless the democracy



It's almost correct, should have read 50.02%

BTW The police have stated that they will only report to the Minister of the Interior if they approve of the choice.


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## canuck2010

If that rumor is true, it's not so bad. The intelligence officers are a smart bunch and have kept the country from completely falling apart.

Sent from my iPad using ExpatForum


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