# Is SA the crime centre of the world???



## Stravinsky

I see on another forum that the posters on there are always saying that the crime rate in SA is very high, and you have to take huge security precautions to live a safe life there. I notice most of them no longer live there 

Is this true, or is it just bitter ex pats who failed in their life in SA and want to diss the country?


----------



## Sunnywa

No it defintely is the crime captial of the world. An average of 23 000.00 people die of violent crime every year. I think those states speak for themself


----------



## STEFF

Dear moderator, 
It is not " bitter" ex pats on the forums, but rather concerned for other people wanting to move to S.A with their families! by no ways at all did i as you put it " failed in their life in S.A" both my husband and myself had very good careers with very good salaries but left because of the Crime! Statistics:- Highest murder rate ( x5 higher than Brazil)
Rape capital of the world
Highest Aids/HIV in the world
Living in gated communities with armed guards, electric fences and armed guards, most european kids are home schooled unless their parents can afford Private Schooling. Women are at great risk going out on their own. So if that small taste of the real S.A isnt enough why not check out a few of the websites
s.athetruth
crimexposure
there are many more. The only thing I am "bitter" about is the fact that out beautiful country is turning into a sewer!


----------



## synthia

Steff, that wasn't directed at you personally. As Stravinsky said, this is a common thread on a lot of forums, not just this one.

It's hard to evaluate comments about South Africa. People who live in a situation adapt, and may not recognize how good or bad some aspect of their home country is until they move somewhere else. I recently visited a friend that thought it was peculiar that I always lock my car!


----------



## jmspringbok

We have been told it depends on where you live too. If you live in Johannesburg you are probably going to have more of a chance of being a victim of crime than if you are in the Cape Town area. I have been told by quite a few South Africans that they would never leave SA even if given the opportunity.


----------



## Americanmade

Actually it is not your country BUT the Blacks country and if you look at what they went through, there is plenty of reasons that they are behaving this way. 
Funny, what is happening now is no more discusting and dispicable than what happened to them for hundreds of years by the hands of the Dutch. I wonder how much you said and did to help the Blacks when the Dutch were treating them as slaves for so long in their own country!


----------



## Americanmade

And people in the West always lock their cars. It can be stolen by anyone White Black or Hispanic. So theft isnt something unique to the true South Africans.


----------



## synthia

americanmade - As a fellow American, I don´t think we have much room to talk. I´m old enough to remember segregation and lynchings.

South Africa belongs to all of its citizens, white, black, and asian. To say that it belongs only to it´s black citizens is as racist as saying it only belongs to white people.

Your remarks are inappropriate. This forum is here to help people, not attack them.


----------



## webslave1

*hatred comes in many forms and this one is particularly hatefull*



Americanmade said:


> Actually it is not your country BUT the Blacks country and if you look at what they went through, there is plenty of reasons that they are behaving this way.
> Funny, what is happening now is no more discusting and dispicable than what happened to them for hundreds of years by the hands of the Dutch. I wonder how much you said and did to help the Blacks when the Dutch were treating them as slaves for so long in their own country!


All I can see from this posting is vitriol and untruths, this is the kind of rubbish I would have expected from the old apartheid govt circa 1980. 

This sounds like a racist in old clothes. And from the name tag of American extraction. 

A lot of slaves were and are still today sold by the people they know best their own relatives. 

Black people in South Africa are by no means anyone's Slaves and to suggest otherwise is to do them a disservice of the worst kind!

That you blame others for what are obviously your own shortcomings gives the other racists the ammunition to justify the bullying they inflict upon us all.

That BEE has worked is in no doubt with 2.5 million middle income families having sprung up in ten years - in no small part to the past National Party Govt policy of paying the managers (white if you really must be so , so, hatefull) at the time more to get other white skilled workers to leave. SAA had a policy of paying middle management in 1993/4 to pay out middle managers to leave as thier bosses were paid a huge bonus for doing this. The same happened at the ESKOM power regulators. As a result there was not enough experience managers to oversee the shortfall thats were to happen in 5 or ten years - which is now. To blame the colonialists and such is so last century. This is the 21st century the past is over and the future is not served well by stoking old tired hateful arguments. Rather be helpful and donate your time to helping people in your own country out of poverty of which there are 40 million! Almost the whole population of South Africa and here you stand pointing a finger at us. As for the crime stats, there is more 

Make no mistake I was no fan of the era nor of the Apartheid monsters, but it is a part of our past and now the whites are the minority, just like black in America are and should be afforded the same rights and obligations of being a citizen of the country of their birth. If they pay thier way and support the economy of the area they live in, be it in the USA or anywhere else such as South Africa or even the UK. The Aussies have it right appoint private practitioners to provide a route for skilled labour to find an easy way into the country and ensure the labour in the country is Looked after by means of protected apprenticeships etc. This way the standard of work rises over a decade and the workforce feels needed. Look after the labour force and the future is easier for all. A proud labour force will always being the economy of any area back from the brink.


Crime figures in england and wales (excludes the province of scotland and northern ireland)


> total number of crimes recorded by police fell 5% in the quarter to 1,381,400, from the BBC 2005


Not 21000 or so reported for south Africa as a whole - nearly 1.5 MILLION!! Reality check guys...... gun crime alone in London for 2007 was over 10 000, not including knife crime which at over 15000 incidents and over 25 youngster's under the age of consent having been killed already......


----------



## Blunomore

As an aside to Americanmade: When is the USA making APPROPRIATE amends to the Native Americans?? That is a rhetorical question, by the way .... 

Back on topic: 
Yes, the crime is very bad. As a South African, it is not pleasant for me to admit that fact. I have been a victim of crime many times. Luckily, none of those cases involved any physical harm. When you talk to people - especially here in Jo'burg - everyone has been a victim or have a close friend/relative who has fallen victim. Just this week, my travel agent's partner was shot dead in her driveway. 

Every day brings a new horror story in the newspapers. It seems to have no end and the perpetrators are getting bolder by the day. No-one escapes this and no ethnic group escapes the curse. 

It is very hard to explain to someone who does not know the feeling. For example, my boyfriend travels a lot and every single time he leaves the house, I feel uneasy until I hear from him to know that he is safely at his destination. 

According to those in the know, the residents of Jo'burg live in a permanent low level of trauma and paranoia. That cannot be healthy at all. 

I do not want to go into the reasons for the crime, I am simply responding to the original poster who wanted to know if it is really that bad. Yes, it is, and it pains me to say so.


----------



## Byo

synthia said:


> americanmade - As a fellow American, I don´t think we have much room to talk. I´m old enough to remember segregation and lynchings.
> 
> South Africa belongs to all of its citizens, white, black, and asian. To say that it belongs only to it´s black citizens is as racist as saying it only belongs to white people.
> 
> Your remarks are inappropriate. This forum is here to help people, not attack them.


Well said Synthia. Can't you just ban Americanmade he ads no value to the group and obviously has a chip on his shoulder.


----------



## Stravinsky

Byo said:


> Well said Synthia. Can't you just ban Americanmade he ads no value to the group and obviously has a chip on his shoulder.


I banned Americanmade ages ago!


----------



## BARBS1

Stravinsky said:


> I see on another forum that the posters on there are always saying that the crime rate in SA is very high, and you have to take huge security precautions to live a safe life there. I notice most of them no longer live there
> 
> Is this true, or is it just bitter ex pats who failed in their life in SA and want to diss the country?


Steff could not have worded it more accurately..... we too are very successful business people but want a safer environment for our children and grandchildren to grow up in. Why should young children think its the 'norm' to have burglar/car alarms, not go out after dark (let alone in the daytime in an affluent area their bicycle/clothes/shoes are stolen from little kids). My 11 yr old son is too scared to go for a sleepover at friends in case I get burgled, robbed, or raped whilst his father is away on business... shocking fear for such a young child who should be out having fun. He reads our local papers/watches the news and is well aware of the crime in our area and all around the country - let alone the crooked Government. I will not hide these news avenues from his because it is his right to know. So many adults are acting like ostriches with their heads in the sand and/or staying for financial reasons only. Not to mention the fact that he is the first to remind you to lock all car doors before venturing down to the local shopping centre. Actually, he is all for emigrating to a better country with a higher quality of life. And at 11 he is disappointed in this country..... makes you think.


----------



## Daxk

Forgive me, only noticed something in a post by webslave1 dating back to january ,ie:"Crime figures in england and wales (excludes the province of scotland and northern ireland)

Quote:
total number of crimes recorded by police fell 5% in the quarter to 1,381,400, from the BBC 2005 

Not 21000 or so reported for south Africa as a whole - nearly 1.5 MILLION!! Reality check guys...... gun crime alone in London for 2007 was over 10 000, not including knife crime which at over 15000 incidents and over 25 youngster's under the age of consent having been killed already......"

Webslave, I dont want to get into a fruitless arguement with you trying to compare Countries with different demo and Psychgraphic profiles.
but if you analise the figures you've given for the UK you will note that they include Road Accident Fatalities as well as Manslaughter /murder.
The SA Stats before 1994 are suspect for a number of reasons, the SA Stats after 94 have been subdivided and sub categorised to such an extent that you cannot compare them equitably.
The nearest comparison would have been the SA medical Council Mortality report which was far more accurate regarding Cause of death.
Unfortunately, they differed so much from the "Official" stats that they have now been "Embargoed" unless you have ministerial permission.

I hear what you say about armed crime in the UK and agree it is worrying.
What to me is more concerning in SA is that a) High Failure rate in Schools and b) increasing numbers of Aids Orphans. means the problem of the AK47 at ZAR100 is not going away soon
My apologies for the late reply


----------



## Michele-In-SA

Stravinsky said:


> I see on another forum that the posters on there are always saying that the crime rate in SA is very high, and you have to take huge security precautions to live a safe life there. I notice most of them no longer live there
> 
> Is this true, or is it just bitter ex pats who failed in their life in SA and want to diss the country?


Good question Strav. Wonder where we can get REAL stats on that? I live in Somerset West, Cape Town, where crime is minimal. Johannesburg (Central) on the other hand does experience more crime than most other places.

Here's a short story I would like to share: A family i know left SA a few years back because of the crime. They moved to Australia. One month after they arrived their daughter was murdered. 

Is there anywhere safe in this world?


----------



## Daxk

Michele-In-SA said:


> Good question Strav. Wonder where we can get REAL stats on that? I live in Somerset West, Cape Town, where crime is minimal. Johannesburg (Central) on the other hand does experience more crime than most other places.
> 
> Here's a short story I would like to share: A family i know left SA a few years back because of the crime. They moved to Australia. One month after they arrived their daughter was murdered.
> 
> Is there anywhere safe in this world?


What REAL Stats is Michelle referring to??
The SA Medical Council used to publish a Mortality report which is now "Embargoed" without manto's permission, you cant see
it,Reason?? two years running it shows that the SAPS Murder Stats were undereported.
Much as tho the SAPS Crime Stats may be suspect according to Rape Figures,
The Murder/Homicide section has to be fairly accurate.
The Institute of Race Relations also do some credible stats.
So what is Michele asking for?


----------



## Michele-In-SA

Daxk said:


> What REAL Stats is Michelle referring to??
> The SA Medical Council used to publish a Mortality report which is now "Embargoed" without manto's permission, you cant see
> it,Reason?? two years running it shows that the SAPS Murder Stats were undereported.
> Much as tho the SAPS Crime Stats may be suspect according to Rape Figures,
> The Murder/Homicide section has to be fairly accurate.
> The Institute of Race Relations also do some credible stats.
> So what is Michele asking for?


I was wondering where we could get up to date stats on a regular basis. This is not my field so would hardly know where to start but for interest's sake I would be happy to do some research, if even for my own info. Just a figures person i guess!  Will have a look see at those referred to above. Thanks Daxk


----------



## Daxk

Michelle in Somerset
Statistics | Crime Statistics

and the scary one, Law Society Report on Conviction rates 2000.
The reason why this is scary is that from 2000 to present The Court Rolls have more than quadrupled but the number of awaiting trial prisoners and Convicted Prisoners has stayed virtually constant, ie, Michelle, the percentages of convicted means that if you killed someone you had a 10% chance of going to prison and a 93.3% chance of getting away with Rape IF the victim laid a charge and IF you were caught.
Conviction Rates in South Africa
If however Michele, you want to know how big your target market is, it's 841,000 odd less Bums on Seats between 1996 and 2005 Census.
Institute of Race Relations comparison of White census figures.


----------



## gkloken

All I can say is: Show me the crime everyone is talking about so much.?

Have been here now for over 6 months, three in Johannesburg travelling back and forth even late at night early morning in the day shopping etc. 

Not one single situation where I was attacked, felt any fear, threat or danger.
Did not speak to anyone that was, or had a family member involved in a crime attack, robbery or Hijack. Cape Town the same . 
You hear occasionally on TV about a farmer that was attacked or someone that was murdered close to the borders of the other countries. A;so some ATM that was robbed.
For instance, I do not hear on a daily basis about road rages , drugs, rapes, serial killers and child abusers and pedophiles etc like I did when in the USA .
I experienced more caution there, when driving, walking in the streets or being alone at night in the streets. 
That doesn't mean there is no crime in SA like in all big cities. 
The crime centre of the world ? You must be joking! 

However I did experience a lot of paranoia amongst some of the whiteand Afrikaans speaking communities about their "future" and what might happen when Mandela dies , more than what is happening on a daily basis.

In the mean time the people are getting more wealthier and live more luxuriously than for instance 5 years ago . Tourism is blooming , hotels are fully booked weeks in advance the same with B+B's and Guest Lodges . 

Wonder why would all the tourists flood the country if there is so much crime ?


----------



## Daxk

Well Glocken,I am very glad for you, I lived there for 54 years and apart from a couple of car radios I did'nt really experience any crime for 50 of those
years. Then I had a mugging, two attempted Hi-jack attempts and left as an armed robbery was beginning at a clients home.
I did'nt leave.
and then a very good friend was raped in front of her 9 and 6 year old daughters, I did'nt leave
And when my neighbours got raided by a bunch of armed thugs while tey were having a braai, and Old Mrs Naidoo got pulled out of her car up the road,and one of daughters Nursery Schools buddies Mom got taken out of her car at te Nursery school, I did'nt leave,
And I still drove around at night, partied till late, just had to be careful and you were ok.
Then they got me.in my driveway, pulled wife towards the bushes, took us inside,they were there for awhile, 4 of them, my daughter was hiding in the bushes, 5 years old
I did'nt leave,
They caught them, Got my 4x4 back, they went to court, and came out on bail.
So they visited me one Sunday morning, pointing at my 5 year old daughter and making suggestive signs.
So, Gloken, I left.
Someone else recently said they did'nt know anyone who had experienced serious crime in SA
This was my reply "Ok, I'm going to exclude the Twelve friends whose burials I attended pre 1994 as that was a war afterall.. 
I will also exclude where people have been "lucky" especially my Brother where the gun misfired twice in his face before the hi-jacker ran away 
Life Changing experiences: 
C falsely arrested thrown into HOlding Cells overnight, raped. 
L, Raped in front of her 6 and 9 year old daughters in a house Robbery 
J, my wifes PA, Kidnapped and raped by 4 guys, the Investigating Detective G/F was found wearing J's designer top with her initials inside. 
Claudio, shot in his driveway, 
Delinda, shot in her car, 
Philipe Nash shot dead in front of his wife and Kids next to the Christmas tree, Dec 2005 
Megan Herselman at the Rivonia offramp 
Chris L, last year, survived Lungshot, never run a comrades again. 
Heather Strangs son, shot in his car (Cannot remember his first name) 
Thats just me, I have not included Armed House robberies or Hi-Jackings or Mugging where no-one was hurt."

Tourists??
Tourists are like people in SA, myself too for awhile, they think nothing bad can ever happen to them, mostly they are right.
I hope you are right too, Glocken.

_________________


----------



## Daxk

Hey GKLocken :"All I can say is: Show me the crime everyone is talking about so much.?


This was pulled from Front page news 24 this am, it's still there but you have to search for it.

Robbers make son watch rape: South Africa: News: News24

Guess there will be a bit more of that paranoia you were talking about,


----------



## gkloken

When did you move my dear ? 
I have real understanding and empathy with you and I hear you.

I was hijacked and was held hostage higher up in Africa too , but the same or similar things happens to people every day in so many other countries too. 

Sometimes far worse than these experiences.
Even in the USA/UK/Australia in different ways/forms.There is a definite positive change and integration that took place in SA believe me .
When I arrived peole couldn't understand why I do not fear like they do. My answer was I just came from America . 
Some of my experiences there was hair raising especially since we believe that is a safe haven coming from the terrible SA . It was quite an eye opener too. 
My friend was stabbed in London and died subsequently in a supposedly safe quiet neighbourhood while walking her dog.

That doesn't make UK or USA or Brazil or Kinshasa or Sydney the crime capitals of the world. 
Why then would SA be "The Place" that is supposedly the "worst".

That made me realise SA is actually a mild country and crime just happens everywhere in different forms I cannot live in fear of what might or might never happen.


----------



## gkloken

Daxk said:


> Hey GKLocken :"All I can say is: Show me the crime everyone is talking about so much.?
> 
> 
> This was pulled from Front page news 24 this am, it's still there but you have to search for it.
> 
> Robbers make son watch rape: South Africa: News: News24
> 
> Guess there will be a bit more of that paranoia you were talking about,


Like the same thing happens in the USA or UK and is published for everyone that want to or mostly do not want to hear it continuously . But it happens . 

I am talking about not a couple of daily incidents I am talking about "SA The" supposedly "Crime capital of the world ".

A sweeping statement don't you think? Why always harp on SA it happens so frequently on this forum? 

One very rarely hears about those that never had bad experiences, those that enjoy living here and never would change countries. 
I had bad and lovely experiences in the USA. Will I go back yes . Do I hate the USA no .
I am right now on my way to the country where I had my worst experiences, unspeakable up north in Africa. 

Yet I had hauntingly beautiful experiences there too and there are more terrible crimes there than in SA .
It just never get the Media's attention.

Why don't we hear any of the good things that happens here in SA like in every other country too? 

Those things that tourists experience and made them return year after year after year for over 10 years? 

Or for instance about all those foreigners that own a large percentage of the tourist establishments in SA? 

Like one German said to me" they haven't lived the difficult life we average Germans live or seen our crime or our government. 
It is still heaven here in SA"!


----------



## Daxk

I left 3 years and a bit ago ,Sweetiepie.
And yes, Crime happens everywhere , but not to the scale of ferocity during peace time as is happening.
I too happen to know large parts of Africa, did a lot of business and trips every year for many years,which in part explained my arrogance and disdain for those mere mortals around me who did'nt know how to be careful.
Lagos, Brazzaville,Kinshasha, Luanda, bulletproof Car and at least two bodyguards to sleep outside my Hotel room at nights and to guard me.
Nairobi, Zanzibar, Mozambique etc etc..
Own the T-shirt factory, dearie, dont try to minimise the very real danger if you happen to cross some sight lines in good old gatties, sarf Effrika, friend.
There's a lot of people trying to get somewhere else there, and its not because of the weather.


----------



## Daxk

Hey GkLocken:"One very rarely hears about those that never had bad experiences, those that enjoy living here and never would change countries. 
I had bad and lovely experiences in the USA. Will I go back yes . Do I hate the USA no .
I am right now on my way to the country where I had my worst experiences, unspeakable up north in Africa. 

Yet I had hauntingly beautiful experiences there too and there are more terrible crimes there than in SA .
It just never get the Media's attention.

Why don't we hear any of the good things that happens here in SA like in every other country too? 

Those things that tourists experience and made them return year after year after year for over 10 years? 

Or for instance about all those foreigners that own a large percentage of the tourist establishments in SA? 

Like one German said to me" they haven't lived the difficult life we average Germans live or seen our crime or our government. 
It is still heaven here in SA"!"
May I take these in part?
Who said anything about hating SA??
There is this very real attitude amongst South Africans, especially amongst us Afrikaners, that if you criticise SA or Leave, you hate SA?
It's very unpatriotic! Dont Moan or point out the bad bits, you will only do that if you hate SA.
BS!!
Love the country, love the people, hate whats being done to it in the name of greed and stupidity and arrogance.

Of course you hear about the good things, they're there everyday, news24 and IOL. why did'nt you hear about bad things in Somalia and Darfur and other African Countries?? I did, often,and still do. They are by and large, Failed Countries.
Are they worse than SA? must be, Tourism figures from them are up!! 
In fact,73% of all Tourists last year are from other African Countries.
Did they leave? I dont know, neither does immigration.

Why do Tourists come back??
Because its great weather and its cheap.
Same answer for Foreign ownership

Tell me more about this one German? did he experience the Holocaust or the depression? Weimarr Republic?? what was he basing it on?


----------



## gkloken

Agreed, but so are there so many people wanting to get away from UK, USA, France, Germany actually everywhere in the world .

Why for instance do they want to leave China ? Why would South Africans that believed it is safer out there and moved to Australia now run back because and I qoute: " in SA we ran away from the cops, in Sydney the cops run away from the white teen gangs that terrorise everyone regardless " ? 
Why would people like Leon Schuster and several other celebrities, feel it is safer and better in SA than in Australia.
Just to name one of so many that came back and found it is much better with the devil you know, than the one you don't and find worse ? 

That brings me back to the same point; why don't we hear from SA expats that can't wait to return or people that are happy in SA like in every other country there is a balance ? 

I hear from them I see some and hear about so many that love the country as is. 

Was it better to sleep with body guards and armed cars in the other countries than in SA ? ( I actually enjoyed the experience of armed cars and body guards that slept not outside but sat inside my hotel room... )

Obviously not , but we never hear about how terrible those countries are . Why only SA?


----------



## Daxk

Please GKLocken!! People leave for better opportunities, a better life, it does not always work out, To leave your comfort zone, your Network and safety net and settle somewhere totally new with very few of your possessions takes *******.
The only thing that creates change is when it hurts more not to change.
The fastest test is to ask the question, you've won a 100 million on the euro millions, where do you want to live?
Those who left for career and opportunities will return to where they came from.
Those that left because of a belief that somewhere else was better for themselves and their children, wont.
Saffa's who I've asked that question of,only the ones without kids have said they would go back.
Happy returnees, they are there, Martine Shaffer of Homecoming Revolution reported in the media s they get about 10 enquiries a week, thats 560 enquiries a year, am sure some of those might go "Home" 
841,000 left between the 1996 and 2005 census, Oz is showing 30,000 odd immigrants pa from SA since then

Your other questions? China?? can they leave the most repressive society I
have ever seen??
Your comments about Sydney?? and returning expats?
Yeah! it's traumatic,it boils down to how badly you want to leave.
In my new country, Saffa's are considered to be arrogant, selfish, loud mouthed and go-getters.
In SA I constantly told emigrants who complained that if they did'nt like it, there was a regular Airline service back to the UK or the States, whereever.
I was going to put out the lights.
Now eskom have done it for us.
Was it better , nope, I have friends and family who choose to stay there, their choice,I have a friend who is going back, his choice. They are doing it as intelligent, informed human beings, I cant fault that.
My choice is to live somewhere wetter,colder , with shorter hours of daylight in Winter, but where my child plays in the fields behind the house, I have no burglar bars, cars are unlocked and I'm relaxed when my wife and daughter go out.


----------



## gkloken

Well if you are happy then I am happy for you!

People do not leave and change because it hurts. 
It is exciting to explore new places, countries and cultures- as a family too .
So one does it because it is something one desire to do, not because it hurts or due to fear only. 
Just read the postings and you will find only a very small group leaves because it really really hurts them. For the rest it is fun or dreams come true 
For me I live in the now, not in the past wherever I am. 
That is the only way to live life to the fullest and enjoy new experiences . 
Enjoy your experience now.


----------



## Daxk

, GKlocken, You have misunderstood me,People only change because it hurts more if they dont change.
As the SA Government is finding out too, dont change, it hurts.
I agree that it's always exciting to explore new frontiers, Not all people are up to or committed to that unless it hurts more to go back then to stay.
Do whats right for you and your family, I wont attack that.
If you paint a picture that is obviously different to what is reflected in impartial News media everyday,and denigrate it, I will ask you about it,
If you honestly feel that a large part of the mass emigration that is occurring again, is not based on fear and experience, then i suggest you do some reading.


----------



## Michele-In-SA

Daxk said:


> Michelle in Somerset
> Statistics | Crime Statistics
> 
> and the scary one, Law Society Report on Conviction rates 2000.
> The reason why this is scary is that from 2000 to present The Court Rolls have more than quadrupled but the number of awaiting trial prisoners and Convicted Prisoners has stayed virtually constant, ie, Michelle, the percentages of convicted means that if you killed someone you had a 10% chance of going to prison and a 93.3% chance of getting away with Rape IF the victim laid a charge and IF you were caught.
> Conviction Rates in South Africa
> If however Michele, you want to know how big your target market is, it's 841,000 odd less Bums on Seats between 1996 and 2005 Census.
> Institute of Race Relations comparison of White census figures.


Thanks Daxk, interesting stuff. Thanks a ton.


----------



## Maverick

A few years back I heard the alarm going off from the house across the way from me. As usual I went to the window just to see not expecting anything more than a false alarm. I couldnt believe it - I saw the man who had tried to break in jumping the wall and trying to flee (obviously the alarm scared him away)....

I decided to follow him at a safe distance (prob stupid thing to do) while my mom called the police. I heard the police arrive and directed them to the man where they apprehended him. 

After a few hours the police came back to my house for some more paperwork and told me this guy had JUST been released from prison! 

Great, we caught him and back in jail then - or so I thought!

After a few months I was forced to spend an entire day in court to wait my turn to testify about what had happened. 

I heard later that the entire thing had been thrown out of court because the owner of the house had subsequently died and there was no one to press charges  Could the state not press a charge?

Well our man who had just been released from jail was free back on the streets. Thats justice for you.


----------



## Mbali-sa

Hi Stravinsky,

My advice to you is to arrange a preliminary visit, then decide if it is a place you want to move to. South Africa is a beautiful country and its unfortunate that the media just highlights on the crime and negative aspects only. I believe every country has its good and bad points and you are the only one who can decide..i am a non south african living in Midrand, and do practice the necessary precautions but that doesnt mean that i dont work, go on the occasional evening out or leave my house for that matter. Feel free to contact me, i also assist people to resettle in South Africa, mainly Johanessburg.


----------



## Daxk

Really, Mbali?? Vorna Valley,Noordwyk? Countryview? Blue Hills?
I lived there from 1979 to 2004, still have daily contact.
I'm so glad to hear there's nothing to worry about in Midrand anymore.


----------



## webslave1

*Perception is half the battle*



Daxk said:


> Really, Mbali?? Vorna Valley,Noordwyk? Countryview? Blue Hills?
> I lived there from 1979 to 2004, still have daily contact.
> I'm so glad to hear there's nothing to worry about in Midrand anymore.


The fact is and you can check on this, the actual crime levels for gang related murder are five times higher in Cape Town, petty crime is quite low compared to other countries and in relation to London,New York or Moscow it is actually three to five times lower per 1000. Murder per 1000 is high but in reality the number is actually quite small. To think that there were according to the BBC and the metropolitan police over 100 000 violent incidents in London alone brings it into sharp focus. The whole of south Africa had just over 25000 incidents.. 

Not rocket science to work out the real truth. The fact that the South African media is owned wholesale by the Irish publishing company must have something to do with the slant in the local media - to get the local views you have to read trash media like the/die daily sun/son and in there you can get the local flava of the news.

I have regular contact with Chase Devonshire - a property & asset management company in exclusive London property markets and all the agents and negotiators they have, have their own way of looking at it.

I for one, when driving through London would never leave my car door unlocked and for that matter when taking a cab in London neither do the cabbies.

London has the worlds highest number of professional pickpockets so I would also never leave my valuables where they can be reached, its all about perception. I have seen more people being mugged in London than in any other city i the world yet it has a reputation for being safe.


----------



## Daxk

What are the comparative populations??

I would not go for a midnight walk in JHBG,London,Moscow, or Central Park NY either.
I could easily be a victim of a mugging in any of those Cities, wether i would survive is less likely in Jhbg than London.
Mbali raised the point about Midrand, which encompasses places such as Ivory Park and Thembisa but also quiet suburb's such as the ones i mentioned totalling around 20,000 Homes.
Mbali also called into doubt the veracity of the press in reporting crime.
and made out as if the whole thing is a storm in a teacup and IF you take care,you will be ok.
Thats Bull.
Now,if you really want to compare levels of violent crime, i'm happy to do so, kindly remove vehicular and pedestrian fatalities from the UK figures, they are easy to find.
Secondly,SA has a low rate of petty crime as if the SAPS cannot solve and convict 91% of the murders and 88% of the rapes, does anyone even report petty crime?( Source SA Law Commision on Conviction Rates)
In fact, I have beeen in a SAPS ploice Station reporting the abduction and rape of a 21 year old employee of ours, when it was suggested to her that she might as well forget it, they would never catch them,
I did report it, immediately,to the Station Commander, zero action, friend, and that was a rape.

I stopped reporting anything that's too much hassle years ago, am sure there's many more like me.

But thats not the issue, you can be a victim of crime anywhere, you can also spend 40 years in SA and never experience any crime, but, if you do happen to cross someones path and you experience contact crime in SA, its likely to be life changing, or ending.

You are trying to minimise the crime problem in SA.


----------



## Daxk

Hi Mbali, In case the midrand reporter does'nt cover this, The weekly Crome report from Eblockwatch for Midrand.

"Please note: this report is from 1 - 12 May
BURGLARIES & ROBBERIES


BURGLARY AT RESIDENTIAL PREMISES (HOUSE BREAK-INS)

PRESIDENT PARK/ GLEN AUSTIN
Anne Road (This was an attempted burglary - the victim fired shots at suspects), Steyn Road

NOORDWYK/ ERAND
Karee Street, Rooihout Street, Lever Road, Tamboti Circle, Mahogany Street, Chestnut Street, Ceder Road, Blackwood Circle, 8th Road, Bottlebrush Street, Boxwood Street

VORNA VALLEY/ HALFWAY GARDENS
cnr Dorneill & van Heerden, Jamie Uys Street, Summers Close, Old PTA Road, 3rd Road, Norfolk Street

CROWTHORNE/ BLUE HILLS/ CARLSWALD
New Road was hit twice, cnr of Tamboti and Garden Road

GLEN FERNESS/ KYALAMI/ BEAULIEU/ BARBERQUE DOWNS
Robin Street was hit twice and then the cnr of Swallow and Robin was hit - these all took place on the same day between 06h00 and 07h00, Ash Road, Mustang Street 

RANJESFONTEIN
None were reported

HOUSE ROBBERIES

PRESIDENT PARK/ GLEN AUSTIN
Alsation Road was hit by 6 suspects.
Modderfontein Road was hit at 02h16 by 3 males armed with a pistol.
Hampton Road was hit at 21h30 by 3 males.

NOORDWYK/ ERAND
Cypress Road was hit by 4 males at 09h30.
Tamboti Circle was hit at 09h40. The suspects were diving a white BMW.
Pretoria Street was hit at 13h30 by 2 males armed with a pistol.
2 males driving a silver grey Honda Ballade were involved in a robbery in Acacia Street at 12h50

VORNA VALLEY/ HALFWAY GARDENS
Pierneef Street was hit at 15h00 by 1 suspect.


CROWTHORNE/ BLUE HILLS/ CARLSWALD
None

GLEN FERNESS/ KYALAMI/ BEAULIEU/ BARBERQUE DOWNS
Camargue Street was hit at 16h45 - no details are given.

BURGLARY AT BUSINESS PREMISES (BUSINESS BREAK-INS)

PRESIDENT PARK/ GLEN AUSTIN
None

NOORDWYK/ ERAND
None

VORNA VALLEY/ HALFWAY GARDENS
cnr K101 and Le Roux, James Crescent, Old PTA Main Road

CROWTHORNE/ BLUE HILLS/ CARLSWALD
None

GLEN FERNESS/ KYALAMI/ BEAULIEU/ BARBERQUE DOWNS
Silverstone Crescent, 

RANDJIESPARK
None

BUSINESS ROBBERY

A robbery took place at a business in 3rd Road at 19h45. The complanant was held at gunpoint by 3 males (speaking Zulu with Zimbabwean Accent). Complainant was tied up for 2 hours and then taken around in a panel van to show the suspects the rest of the company buildings.

MOTOR VEHICLE RELATED INCIDENTS

MOTOR VEHICLE THEFT

A vehicle was taken from Vodacom Boulevard at 12h10
A Honda Motorcycle was taken in Gymkhana Street at 17h15
A gold VW was taken in 16th Road at 00h10
A VW Velociti was taken at cnr of 7th and 5th Roads at 14h00 
A red VW Velociti was taken from Sanridge at 21h30
A silver blue VW Scirocco was taken at cnr of Bekker and Le Roux Drive at 13h00
An blue VW Velociti was taken from Midway Mews at 19h30
A vehicle was taken from Camargue Street at 16h4
HIJACKING/ CARJACKING
A white Nissan Truch was taken in Whisken Road at 10h45. A blue Jetta was involved in the crime. They forced the victim into the boot of their vehicle and dropped him off at an unknown location. The one suspects face was full of scratches.

A truck was taken in Garden Road at 08h45. The victim was dropped off on the N1 near the London offramp.

No details are given of a third carjacking that took place in Tonnetti Street at 23h00.

SMASH -'N- GRAB

A smash-'n-grab took place on the cnr of New Road and 16th Road at 18h45.

SERIOUS CASES

RAPE

None were reported

MURDER

None were reported

ROBBERY WITH FIREARM

A man was held at gunpoint in West Road at 20h15.

A victim was standing in a bank queue when he was told that he had dropped something at the door. When he went to look he was held by gunpoint and led to a white Toyota Venture with 3 males. They assaulted him and left him in the bush.

2 men were involved in a robbery in Swart Drive at 14h00.

A security guard driving a Ford Bantam was stopped by a red Golf Chicco and a siver Golf. The suspects were all armed and they stole the guards pistol.

2 victims were held at gunpoijnt in Anton Hartman Street at 19h45 while waiting for the house gate to open.

A victim was held at gunpoint by 2 males in Old PTA Rad at 17h55.

A red Toyota reg VXH 731 GP was involved in an armed robbery in Alsation Road at 13h00.

A white BMW 320 reg ND 362 was involved in a rebbery in Alexandra Avenue at 09h30. They followed a victim from the bank.

3 men held up a victim with knives and a bobbejaan spanner in Karee Street at 22h10.

A victim was held at gunpoint at 18h30 in Pavarotti Road.


----------



## Mbali-sa

I have no idea why you write on this forum especially Daxk, you must leave in Utopia where nothing bad happens...you seem intent to just discredit any information on South Africa..the expat forum is not to paint blood and fear to expats but to give them a realistic and pragmatic view meaning both good and bad points on places, wherever the place might be, Daxk on the other hand seems very bitter about South africa, really, give it a break, it is very tiresome...........


----------



## Daxk

DEar Mbali, the reason I post on this forum and others is because people such as yourself try and pretend that all is fine, that Crime hardly happens 
and that the media sensationalise it, that there's nothing to worry about.
I'll quote your post:
" its unfortunate that the media just highlights on the crime and negative aspects only"
Why do I do it? Because only the squeecky wheel gets oil, the powers that be are not doing anything about it, and wont till it hurts more not to do something about it.
I have a mother Brothers,Sister, Brothers and sisters in Law, Nieces and Nephews, all in danger because the Government wont do their job.

If I was making it up,fine, However I only post what is verifiable fact.
you dont like the truth, tough.find and post real good news stories and unless they are obviously spin, I will not comment,in fact will even applaud REAL good news stories.
If not,Dont read my posts.


----------



## Daxk

And yes, Mbali, I do live in Utopia, I live in Ireland.
In Galway, in a beautiful home in the corner of a farm with no burglar bars, my gates are open, my garage has'nt been locked in 2 years, my daughter and her friends play in the fields,feed the Horses, ride their bicycles, we go for walks down Country lanes at night, 
her Govt school has superb Teachers, when she goes to Uni one day(which is as free as her schooling has been,) she can do whatever Courses her marks qualify her for,when she works one day her success or failure will also not depend on her skin colour.
The Public transport,Postal and Police/Judicial systems work.
Health Care is straining but its mostly South African Doctors and Nurses
anyway and at least the new Hospitals that are being built are actualy being built.

She is growing up in a country that has a huge increase in crime this last year, Murders up 25%, yep, it is terrible, 17 more people got murdered than last year. 
Aids is at 1.7% of the population,
But,there are bad points.
There is a reason Ireland is green.
It rains often, a soft rain such as you get in Dullstroom and Howick.
So I gave up some Weather that I could'nt enjoy except in a car for some rain.
Yes. Mbali, i do live in Utopia


----------



## Mbali-sa

Good luck to you Daxk in your utopic farm life in Ireland, lets hope your or your family are never a crime statistic there, then what? you will start on a tirade on the evils of Ireland???????
Further, we all live live where we live and changes come from doing something from within not from running away and spewing stories laced with bitterness off the sidelines...
And i will take your advice and not read your posts, hopefully no one else will either, seeing as you dont even live in South Africa in the first place!


----------



## Daxk

,thank you for your wishes,Mbali, when the 4 B*stards who hi-jacked us,dragged my wife towards the bushes,who spent an Hour in my house with us decided to visit me when they were out on bail and were pointing at my 5 yo daughter and making obscene gestures ,you are right, I decided to run away.
you did say you were a non South African national?


----------



## Moshiecat

Hi,

I have been avidly reading this forum and I must say, it does always appear to err on the negative. I do agree with mbali in particular, about Dakks negative attitude, although his story is really horrible, I know from my post, his responses are skewed by his own traumatic experience. Although S.A is by no means a safe place, it is only fair to offer prospective expats a fair and balanced view. From my own research, I have found a view blogs from people living in S.A NOW - and its an insight into what life truely is like over there. good and bad.

I LUV SA BUT..

Inside South Africa

SenseLess Sense...

6000 miles from civilisation...

i'm sure there's loads more, I'll post them as i find them!!


----------



## Moshiecat

Hi Dakk,

I am really pleased you have settled yourself in Galway, ROI, esp after your bad experience in S.A (I do completely understand and appreciate your reason for leaving). But I feel inclined to point out to other people, that it may be a utopia for you, but in reality for many, Ireland, has its fair share of problems.
I am not sure of your ethnic origin, but ROI, is quite racist. I know several black people, I have met in the UK who have had racist abuse and bricks through their cars over there, I know you're not in Dublin, but it has a major drug and gang problem, even myself in Belfast, I have had people shouting racist reamrks at me in the street and another friend of mine had eggs thrown at him. Now, fair enough, crime in S.A is more viscious, prevalent and the police don't do anything - but I feel it only fair to point out these things to other people as you seem to have a very black and white view on things (no racial pun intended) and I feel it only fair to show a bit of balance.


----------



## Daxk

Yes,Moshiecat the Irish have become racist (Actually so has the UK with its attempts to control immigration)
far more so than they were during the years prior to 1994 (remember the shopgirls from Dunnes stores refusing to sell outspan oranges?)
I wonder what has caused this turn around?
Do you think they have had bad experiences with immigrants and refugees?
do you think that a small minority have spoilt it for the majority?

Back to SA, those blogs you posted, how many are living in Cape Town? 
6K is, he is also living with minimal security.

if you figure you can discount what i say as PTSD or Trauma, plse do so.
I only post verifiable fact, I dont care wether you go to SA or not,I dont care wether Mbali is safe or not,it's no skin off my nose,does'nt affect me one bit.
But if you post untruths, or spin or minimise the damage that is being done to a beautiful place, then I will post facts in opposition.
if there are no facts,I will not post them.
But if you cant handle truth, easy, dont read or respond to my posts.
Moshiecat, as you've raised the point.
what information did I give you that was incorrect?
and where was the bias?
I staed that Vet ant Pretoria Uni was oversubscribed, that as a Foreigner,even a Africanised Foreigner,you would not qualify on an AA basis but in fact would only be considered after 9.6% of the student positions had been allocated to white students.
I stated that SA has 150 rapes a day and that the conviction rate is 9%
I stated that Universities were considered unsafe at the moment.
Which of all the information and advice I gave you was either untrue,biased or self serving?


----------



## Stravinsky

I have to add (as a moderator on several SA forums) that although you may feel Daxk's posts are negative, they do bring peoples attention to the problems there, which is good as people have to make an informed decision.

I have seen plenty of posts about terrible crimes in SA involving extreme violence, all from people who have lived there, and I have to say there is no way you can compare what happens in SA to what happens in Southern Ireland.


----------



## oddball

Stravinsky said:


> I have to add (as a moderator on several SA forums) that although you may feel Daxk's posts are negative, they do bring peoples attention to the problems there, which is good as people have to make an informed decision.
> 
> I have seen plenty of posts about terrible crimes in SA involving extreme violence, all from people who have lived there, and I have to say there is no way you can compare what happens in SA to what happens in Southern Ireland.


 I also think the good,the bad and the ugly are neccessary to supply wannabees with a good cross section of living conditions,scary or not.Colin


----------



## Moshiecat

Hi all,

In response to Dakk, I really appreciate all the information you provided me with, as I was wanting to gather information. I was merely agrreeing with mbali, that you have NOTHING good to say, generally you can point out negatives to an extent. Obviuosly S.A has a lot of crime, the police force are ineffective, etc, but surely there are SOME good points. I would assume, most people interested in moving anywhere, will do adequate research and make a decision based on that, and its useful to hear balanced opinions - not just a barrage of hate for a place, which I said was understandable, given what you've been through.

And as for the university, I completely understand why the vet course is oversubscribed: its an excellent programme, and I understand why they are picky who they take on. But from my interactions with the faculty, my ethnic origin has not even come into question, they are deciding if my current course is suitable for a transfer, I should hopefully find out soon!!!!!

As for the Ireland thing, by no means was I comparing the crime rates in Ireland to S.A - its just Dakk was making it out to be a mystical utopia, free of crime, I was merely pointing out as someone who lives in the area, that it has its fair share of problems and was merely highlighting the black and white views of dakk, i.e heaven v hell. I mean, next door to me in Scotland, someone was brutally murdered, my brother and dad, have been mugged on more than one occasion in England and I have suffered racial abuse in Ireland, but I would never start a hate campaign against the UK because of this, I would point out the GOOD and BAD things!!!!!

I feel the forum is becoming a bit *****y - I really didn't mean to step on anyones toes, can we just agree to disagree on this point and go back to giving people fair and balanced information!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Daxk

Hi Moshiecat,I obviously did'nt make myself clear.
there is a reason I dont live in Dublin,Limerick,Glasgow,Belfast Birmingham etc but choose to live in a small place, in the country, in exactly the same way as people who live in Port Elizabeth,Cape, A live with less crime than say Cape town and especially Jhbg,Pretoria,Midrand.
Good things about SA, plenty, the weather, the scenery, the people, lower cost of some foodstuffs, and if you read through my posts here and on other forums, 
You hoped that things would change by 2010, historically, ALL SA Governments in SA only changed because of international exposure and pressure.
Ditto the ANC will only do something about the Crime, greed and Corruption when it becomes embarrassing not to.
Had Mbali posted that she led the lifestyle in PE or some small community such as Grahamstown or even Cape Town, I would not have commented.
but the moment someone starts diminishing what is a real danger where I DO have knowledge of,and I am in daily contact,telephone and email with my staff as well as family and friends, so in some ways, I am probably better informed then most of the people i know in SA rgarding crime.
I can assure you your ethnicity would have come into play if you were a SA applying, nonetheless,its moot,they do have a small allocation for International Students and you may well be lucky there.


----------



## Moshiecat

Ya Dakk - I guess I didn't interpret you correctly there, and I apologise! I totally get the living in a small rural location, I grew up in a tiny village in Scotland, and used to feed the cows in the fields and play in the grass, just outside the house, so I do know how idyllic that is and it defo a better environmrnt for your wee girl than S.A from the sounds of it and when I moved to the city it is a big diff and you appear to acknowledge that.

I really have taken on board what you have said, and i'm not 100% either way, but if I was to get in, it would be a once in a lifetime oppurtunity aswell! Its a shame about the allocation of places, it should be based on merit - with maybe a proportion of allocated place for people from tougher backgrounds.

I must say, before I considered S.A, I didn't know much, if anything about the politics over there, but since doing some reading, it is so disapointing to disciver all the greed and corruption and inaction at crucial times, esp the recent violence against foreigners. The only bonus, is that it is getting international coverage and may just *force* them to do something and bring about some positive changes.


----------



## neilmeyer

Americanmade said:


> Actually it is not your country BUT the Blacks country and if you look at what they went through, there is plenty of reasons that they are behaving this way.
> Funny, what is happening now is no more discusting and dispicable than what happened to them for hundreds of years by the hands of the Dutch. I wonder how much you said and did to help the Blacks when the Dutch were treating them as slaves for so long in their own country!


WOW, Americanmade I must commend you on talking like a real anc puppet. What is it that the dutch did to the blacks for hundred of years? Not let them vote? Not gave them enough ground for their cattle. Gave them jobs?

WOW, your people have been treated like pigs (yes that is sarcasm). Have you seen what has happened in other African Countries. Genocide, Mass Rape, Racial tension. Bitter wars killing hundreds of thousands and displacing millions.

It's is a common trick in politics. They call it passing the buck and that is exactly what our current goverment is doing. And by the way the dutch have been it this country for almost 400 years so I have just as much right as you to be here.

It is clear to me that you have little or no knowledge about history or politics and it is clear that you are talking like ignorant git. So please spare us your idiotic rants.

Does SA have problems? Sure they have, I can't deny that, but South Africans are so bombarded with negative stories from everywhere that we sometimes miss the beauty that is in front of us.

Finally I just want to say that it is really disturbing that you are trying to defend criminals like this. There is nothing in the world that gives a person the right to infringe on an other person's human rights. Not even the so called injustices that you corrupt ANC goverment keeps on professing.

Neil Meyer


----------



## Stravinsky

neilmeyer said:


> WOW, Americanmade I must commend you on talking like a real anc puppet. What is it that the dutch did to the blacks for hundred of years? Not let them vote? Not gave them enough ground for their cattle. Gave them jobs?
> 
> WOW, your people have been treated like pigs (yes that is sarcasm). Have you seen what has happened in other African Countries. Genocide, Mass Rape, Racial tension. Bitter wars killing hundreds of thousands and displacing millions.
> 
> It's is a common trick in politics. They call it passing the buck and that is exactly what our current goverment is doing. And by the way the dutch have been it this country for almost 400 years so I have just as much right as you to be here.
> 
> It is clear to me that you have little or no knowledge about history or politics and it is clear that you are talking like ignorant git. So please spare us your idiotic rants.
> 
> Does SA have problems? Sure they have, I can't deny that, but South Africans are so bombarded with negative stories from everywhere that we sometimes miss the beauty that is in front of us.
> 
> Finally I just want to say that it is really disturbing that you are trying to defend criminals like this. There is nothing in the world that gives a person the right to infringe on an other person's human rights. Not even the so called injustices that you corrupt ANC goverment keeps on professing.
> 
> Neil Meyer


Regrettably Neil, he'll probably never read this as I banned him a while ago


----------



## gkloken

Bravo Mbali -sa! 
I think by now we are all "drenched in this bile" that just never stops! 

Can you imagine what could be achieved if such a "passionate" person turns his energy into something positive?! 
Have a great day!


----------



## Daxk

referring to me?gloken?


----------



## bovinerebel

> I staed that Vet ant Pretoria Uni was oversubscribed, that as a Foreigner,even a Africanised Foreigner,you would not qualify on an AA basis but in fact would only be considered after 9.6% of the student positions had been allocated to white students.
> I stated that SA has 150 rapes a day and that the conviction rate is 9%
> I stated that Universities were considered unsafe at the moment.
> Which of all the information and advice I gave you was either untrue,biased or self serving?
> Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
> Reply With Quote


Point 1 . Yes affirmitive action has made it more difficult for whites to get into university. However a free market economy dictates that as many as want to go and qualify as always still go. If there was more demand they'd open more universties. Simple as that. 

2) 150 rapes a day. Firstly S.a has a high rape problem. I'm not deying that. It's again socio economic and happening amongst the poorest of the poor. I'd suggest rape cases in the middle classes were nominal to very low in frequency compared to the western world for example. This is due to the traditional lack of respect for women in traditional black society but also due to what is considered rape. This is controversial but a fact , these are estimaes made using sample groups where things as as drunken sex is classified as rape in many cases (thanks to feminism and it's hair trigger classification of anything as "rape"). They are also worst case scenarios. 

3) Total bollocks. South African universities are considered perfectly safe. 

So one was true , two was biased and three was enitely untrue. You got a full mix of it in there.


----------



## Daxk

Yes, Bovinerebel. I am enjoying this.
again, happy to hear.
so everyone can go to University and study whatever they wish?

To what do you ascribe the high level of child rape in SA?
If you see rape as a cultural thing and feel that drunken sex is why there are so many rape cases in SA?

If Universities are totally safe, why is it necessary to have such high levels of security?


----------



## bovinerebel

Daxk said:


> Yes, Bovinerebel. I am enjoying this.
> again, happy to hear.
> so everyone can go to University and study whatever they wish?
> 
> To what do you ascribe the high level of child rape in SA?
> If you see rape as a cultural thing and feel that drunken sex is why there are so many rape cases in SA?
> 
> If Universities are totally safe, why is it necessary to have such high levels of security?


1) No. Only the top deserving and hard working students can go to university and study what they wish. This happens to be true for every country in the world.

2) Child rape (under 18) is not nearly as high as you would think. About 1000 cases in 2005 (mostly women in their teens as opposed to actual children in the strict sense) is the last statistic I've seen. The myth of rampant childs rape in South Africa is just that , a myth. 

(disclaimer : I obviously think even 1 child rape is too many . i'm just trying to keep the hyperbole to minimum)

3) Universities are totally safe. Where are you getting this ridiculous idea that they aren't ? All universities in the whole world have security.


----------



## Daxk

"2) Child rape (under 18) is not nearly as high as you would think. About 1000 cases in 2005 (mostly women in their teens as opposed to actual children in the strict sense) is the last statistic I've seen. The myth of rampant childs rape in South Africa is just that , a myth"
Link or source please..


----------



## bovinerebel

Daxk said:


> "2) Child rape (under 18) is not nearly as high as you would think. About 1000 cases in 2005 (mostly women in their teens as opposed to actual children in the strict sense) is the last statistic I've seen. The myth of rampant childs rape in South Africa is just that , a myth"
> Link or source please..


Here's a report on the ever decreasing crime statistics in South Africa. While some crimes have increased in the short term , all crime in the long term has steadily increased, violent crimes especially have decreased to now be atthe same levels as they were during apartheid.

Politicsweb - Top stories - 47,4% upsurge in business robberies

Now remember that 2% of those crimes happen to middle classes south africans , with the lowest level happening to white south africans. 

They specifically state they can not compare rape with 2005 as the change in law as to what constitutes rape makes it not feasible. I will try and find the 2005 figures though that show that 1000 child rapes occured (under 18) in that year and that is a steady number. The point is that at one stage there was ridiculous mania protraying it as if child rape was a run of the mill leisure activity in south africa. Clearly untrue and factually no basis for such hyperbole.


----------



## Daxk

The apartheid crime figures are as suspect as the ANC ones.
you cant compare 93 and 94 figures unless you remove the political violence between the ANC,IFP and the third force,
Murders are down but Home invasions are up, rape is up, business robberies are up,
what are the conviction rates?
Its easy to say 82% knew their victims, but then its 82% of solved murders knew their victims.
SA\ Law report says that 11% of all murders and 9% of all rapes result in convictions.
Glass half full/empty,89% of all murders are unsolved.
find that source or link because child rapes are up according to powa and ISS


----------



## Daxk

if white citizens comprise 9.2% of the population and 2% of crime happens to them thats still a high percentage.
whats the percentage of Home invasions on that 9.2%


----------



## bovinerebel

Daxk said:


> if white citizens comprise 9.2% of the population and 2% of crime happens to them thats still a high percentage.
> whats the percentage of Home invasions on that 9.2%


Yes. It's about 1 murder a day. That's a lot but it's not denocide. So simple maths tells us that on any given day you have a 1 in 5 million chance of being killed in South Africa if you are a local white person. As a tourist let's consider this...


Let's take a look at some of the facts , taken from this website (Lark Tours | The Truth About Crime In South Africa ) :


I hope this shuts you and the other scaremongers up.

Let’s start with the worst, most publicized fact about South Africa’s crime issue: South Africa has roughly 50 murders per day. Though this is certainly a terrible fact, it is highly misleading. Why is that? Murder rates are traditionally measured using the number of murders per 100,000 people. Using that measurement, South Africa had 40.4 murders per 100,000 people during 2006/2007.(1) That is, of course, still a very high statistic. But, it is important that you put this statistic into perspective before you make any judgments. In 2006 Washington, D.C. had 29.7 murders per 100,000 people.(2) In 2005 that number was 35.4.(3) Three years before this in 2003 it had 44.7 murders per 100,000 people.(4) Have you or your family ever had the least concern about visiting Washington, D.C.? In 2006 Birmingham, Alabama had 44.5 murders per 100,000 people and St. Louis, Missouri had 37.2 murders per 100,000.(5)(6)(7) 

Most contact crimes (defined by the police as murder, attempted murder, rape, assault with intent to do serious bodily harm, common assault, indecent assault, aggravated robbery, street muggings, car hijackings, house break-ins, bank robberies, and common robbery) in South Africa take place between people who knew each other according to the South African Police Services' (SAPS) recent Annual Report. In 2006/2007, it reported that this was the case in 81.5% of murders, 75.9% of rapes, 89% of assaults with intent to do grievous bodily harm, and 89.3% of common assault. In 61.9% of murders, the victims and perpetrators were related to each other.(8) 

SAPS reports that most contact crimes took place in impoverished township areas, not in popular tourist spots, hotels, etc. 
According to this same report there was a decrease in contact crimes of 3.4% during 2006/2007, which continues the five-year trend of steadily decreasing crime rates in South Africa. 

According to the 2006 State of Cape Town report, the high crime rates are predominantly concentrated in certain township areas where there has been a rise in drug-related crime and where the onset of crime bosses and gangs have taken over in the absence of adequate law enforcement. These areas, according to the report, are key contributors to the crime rate in the country. This is true for all cities across South Africa.(9) 

Crime statistics among tourists to South Africa is very low. Most crimes by tourists are petty thefts. Based on available statistics, the chance of a tourist experiencing a violent crime (physical assault, mugging, gang attack, rape, or hijacking) is less than 0.67 %. If you take into account that most crimes happen in non-tourist areas, that percentage drops even further.(10) 
In non-violent crimes such as house burglaries South Africa is safer than countries such as Australia, Denmark, Finland, New Zealand, United Kingdom, and Canada.(11) 

For every 10 tourists that visit South Africa one job is created. Tourism is the third largest contributor to South Africa's GDP. World Cup is being hosted by South Africa in 2010. All this to say, the South African government and its people are acutely aware of the importance of tourism and all efforts are being made to curtail crime.(12) 

South Africa is increasing its police force from the current 164,000 officers to 192,000 officers by 2010. It is also restructuring its police force for quicker deployment time and better administrative ability.(13) 
People leaving South Africa after vacation rate their experience very highly. 99% of people say they would love to visit South Africa again and would recommend it to a friend. To put this in context, only 94% of tourists leaving Australia responded similarly.(14)


----------



## bovinerebel

Here's some more for you...i'm going to keep driving stats down your throats until you understand it.

*Speaking at a crime statistics seminar held at the Institute of Security Studies (ISS) in Pretoria on Wednesday, Nqakula said, “If you hear one day that I have gone back to journalism, that will be the story I will write.”

The minister was referring to what he termed ‘the true South African story’, a more balanced reflection of the country’s progress in addressing developmental and socio-economic challenges.

Nqakula’s comment followed presentations and floor discussions during the ISS seminar that touched on the media’s role in depicting the ‘true South African story’ with respect to crime in the country.

While the purpose of the seminar was to discuss the recently released crime statistics for 2007/2008, researchers, SAPS officials and journalists themselves frequently returned to the questions:
does the media in South Africa offer a clear picture of the reality of the crime situation in South Africa? and how powerful is the media in shaping public perceptions of crime and South Africa as a whole?

A false reality
Police officials, among others, have claimed that the way some media report on crime can create a false picture of the reality.

David Bruce of the Centre for the Study of Violence and Reconciliation gave an example of this at a crime reporting workshop held earlier this year. Bruce said that the print media he consumes creates the impression that his demographic and geographical group (white, middle class, living in Gauteng’s northern suburbs) is most at risk when it comes to contact crime in the country.

However statistics and studies conducted by SAPS and other research institutions indicate that the majority of contact crimes take place in large townships. The police precincts that recorded the highest number of murder incidents during the 2007/2008 period were Nyanga in the Western Cape and KwaMashu and Umlazi in KwaZulu Natal. The top twenty list does not feature a single suburban police precinct.

Also, it is seldom reported is the fact that the large majority of these contact crimes are social in nature and therefore occur between people who know each other e.g. friends, acquaintances or relatives. According to the SAPS 2006/2007 Annual Report, 89% of assault cases, 82% of murders and 76% of rapes reported in the period involved people who knew each other.

Deputy National Commissioner Andre Pruis, a speaker at Wednesday’s ISS event, did not shy away from asking the media, “Why do journalists not report on where the majority of murders take place? Is it because these stories don’t sell?”

Victims of our own pessimism
While house robberies and carjackings tend to occur in more affluent suburbs, it is the nature of the reporting of these particular crimes that seem to reflect the media’s power in influencing public perceptions as well as eliciting the disproportionate levels of fear that have become part of our society.

In the 2007/2008 crime statistics report, the author writes:

“The carjackings, house robberies and business robberies [the trio crimes] which result in fatalities, serious injuries or rapes tend to be prominently reported particularly if a well-known member of the community is affected. These extremely tragic incidents are perceived as representative of all robberies.

“Although less than 500 murders recorded during 2007/2008 could be linked to the trio crimes, the more brutal cases enjoyed the most publicity and became associated with all 18 487 murders reported during the period.

“This not only scares off potential investors and tourists but raises fear levels inside the country as well and thereby creates a snowball of perceptions, fears and monotonously recurring reports of news incidents feeding upon one another in a vicious circle of self-fulfilling prophecies.”

Executive Director of the ISS Jakkie Cilliers warns against the tendency of South Africans to position ourselves as “victims of our own pessimism”.

The danger of falling into the pessimism trap lies in the fact that this will inevitably breed a society defined by embittered inaction, the meaningless passing of blame, high levels of disproportionate fear and even punitive and revengeful responses to crime.

The media’s role in the battle
It is here that the media, through reflecting positive developments, SAPS success stories and the like, can play an exceptionally important role.

In an unconventional and somewhat scathing manner, Nqakula suggested that if the media continued to reflect negatively on the country’s crime-fighters and their efforts in addressing this challenge, we could ultimately land up with a situation in which more people are encouraged to engage in criminality.

There is some truth to this. It is possible, after all, that the frequent news stories about identifiable middle class families being attacked in their homes and robbed of their valuables while mysterious, unnamed criminals disappear into the night never to be caught, sends out the message that, in this country, criminals win - and not the justice system, not the police, not the civil society sectors working to make South Africa a safer place.

By reporting on successes, on the broader crime environment and on the socio-economic conditions that produce criminals, the media can reverse pessimistic perceptions about the future of this country.

Telling ‘the true South African story’ is a tough call for journalists. At the end of the day, there are shareholders and investors to whom the bottom line counts - and it is widely known what kind of stories sell. That being said, how is the media in South Africa to manage the power of its influence in this delicate society that is plagued by crime?

In as much as the SAPS report rightly calls for the harshest possible punishments for criminals, shouldn’t the country’s media also ask itself how it can maximise its contribution to a safer South Africa?

In South Africa we are proud of the freedom and robustness of our media. But are we getting worn out by the never-ending criticism and a lack of coverage over what has been done well?

For this freedom and robustness to remain sustainable, shouldn’t the media interrogate the accuracy of “bad news” with the same vigour that they interrogate the good? And shouldn’t the media report the successes with the failures, giving equal attention to each?

A deeper analysis of the crime statistics than the one offered by the mainstream media reveals as many successes as there were disappointments. That is the true South African story!

*


----------



## bovinerebel

One really solid example. 

washington DC has a murder rate of 33 people per 100 000.

south Africa has a murder rate of 40 people per 100 000. 

So you have a .....+-15% more chance of getting murdered in South Africa even of you live in the poorest areas. Does that really sound like reason to panic if you live in the much safer middle classes areas which only attract 2% of the murders ? Given that it's actually safer to live in South Africa as a middle classed person that it is to live in Washington DC.

That really should shut you up or at least make you shrug your shoulders about south african crime. 15% more ? I mean...the chance of being murdered is so low...that's a 15% higher increase ? 0.033 versus 0.040 ? I mean.....does that really warrant all the negatvity ?


----------



## bovinerebel

Also for those who like to throw around that we have the "highest murder rate in the world" would be interested to know that in fact we know have the 6th highest murder rate in the world. And it's decreased every year on average since 1994. We're doing great. 

Countries more dangerous than south africa include tropical paradise Jamaica and Venezuala. I'd think you were a paranoid loon if you told me not to visit those countries on acount of crime , so what does that make you for telling people not to visit south africa because of it when we have less crime ?

Silly people.


----------



## gkloken

Well said , I admire the effort you put in to clear up the all the negative bull that keep on being posted here re South Africa. 
But honestly some people never changes, they actually thrives on the attention they are getting with their continuous negative persistence. 
We who really know the facts about SA choose to ignore those and not to buy into their negativity anymore.


----------



## bovinerebel

gkloken said:


> Well said , I admire the effort you put in to clear up the all the negative bull that keep on being posted here re South Africa.
> But honestly some people never changes, they actually thrives on the attention they are getting with their continuous negative persistence.
> We who really know the facts about SA choose to ignore those and not to buy into their negativity anymore.



The problem isn't that we south Africans ignore them ,the problem is they sell their b#ll**** to foriegners and scare them away from coming to South Africa. I feel I have shown without any doubt that south africa is safe to visit , but they work with fear....and fear easily overcomes reason.

i just wish they would leave the country and shut up with their misinformed lies.


----------



## Daxk

"Also, it is seldom reported is the fact that the large majority of these contact crimes are social in nature and therefore occur between people who know each other e.g. friends, acquaintances or relatives. According to the SAPS 2006/2007 Annual Report, 89% of assault cases, 82% of murders and 76% of rapes reported in the period involved people who knew each other"

So Perpetrators are known?
why is the conviction fo Murder 10% and 9% for Rape? on average 2003 to present
yes, 80% of the crme happens n the poorer areas, and yes you can be murdered anywhere in the World.
So why is there the ironings, the Boiling water, beating up and rape AFTER the theft.
you still owe me the link to the 1000 only kids get raped every year .

i'm always amused by you and even Gloken.
anyone criticises SA, and they are racist, yet the hate speech that you constantly spew is even greater.
age 31? I was a paid up member of the ANC before you were born, kiddo.
voted for them in 94 too.
wont in 2009, they destroyed the dream with their corruption and sheer inablty govern anything that did not make them personally rich.
End of the Day, they were far worse than the Nats were and they should all have been shot.(the nats)

I also meant to ask you, do you have permission from the relatives of those poor murdered people on your site?


----------



## MichelleAlison

bovinerebel said:


> The problem isn't that we south Africans ignore them ,the problem is they sell their b#ll**** to foriegners and scare them away from coming to South Africa. I feel I have shown without any doubt that south africa is safe to visit , but they work with fear....and fear easily overcomes reason.
> 
> i just wish they would leave the country and shut up with their misinformed lies.



What you seem to forget is, when people ask for advice, they want honest advice from everybody, not just one-sided advice from you. I have been doing some reading up on this topic, as you have got me interested in it, and thought you might like to read this news item from 2002 and what South Africans said about the crime. BBC News | TALKING POINT | Have you experienced crime in South Africa?


----------



## bovinerebel

Daxk said:


> "Also, it is seldom reported is the fact that the large majority of these contact crimes are social in nature and therefore occur between people who know each other e.g. friends, acquaintances or relatives. According to the SAPS 2006/2007 Annual Report, 89% of assault cases, 82% of murders and 76% of rapes reported in the period involved people who knew each other"
> 
> So Perpetrators are known?
> why is the conviction fo Murder 10% and 9% for Rape? on average 2003 to present
> yes, 80% of the crme happens n the poorer areas, and yes you can be murdered anywhere in the World.
> So why is there the ironings, the Boiling water, beating up and rape AFTER the theft.
> you still owe me the link to the 1000 only kids get raped every year .
> 
> i'm always amused by you and even Gloken.
> anyone criticises SA, and they are racist, yet the hate speech that you constantly spew is even greater.
> age 31? I was a paid up member of the ANC before you were born, kiddo.
> voted for them in 94 too.
> wont in 2009, they destroyed the dream with their corruption and sheer inablty govern anything that did not make them personally rich.
> End of the Day, they were far worse than the Nats were and they should all have been shot.(the nats)
> 
> I also meant to ask you, do you have permission from the relatives of those poor murdered people on your site?


I think you'll find that the low conviction rate is due to the fact that the people who get murdered as 98% of the time the poorest of the poor. They have no family structures and money for lawyers and the police are mostly apathetic to their plight. thei communities have no infrastructure or official registred homes so people slip through the cracks very easily.

80% of crime happens in poorer areas...but that's misleading...98% of violent crime happens in poorer areas. and of that 2% in middle classed areas the perpetrater is known 80% of the time. I won't deny that south africa has a lot of petty theft ..I lost 3 car radios in 1 year.....or that we have a high level of rape (in the lower communities). 

the ironing .....the boiling water...etc...???????????..see , there you go ! total sensationalism. An isolated freakish case and then you make it out as if it's commonplace.

The poor murdered people in my site are Iraqis whose faces I blanked out. If you want to talk about the iraqi war I think you'll find no one more sympathetic to their plight than myself. Don't beat the strawman by calling me a child or callous or whatever...deal with facts and statistics.


----------



## bovinerebel

MichelleAlison said:


> What you seem to forget is, when people ask for advice, they want honest advice from everybody, not just one-sided advice from you. I have been doing some reading up on this topic, as you have got me interested in it, and thought you might like to read this news item from 2002 and what South Africans said about the crime. BBC News | TALKING POINT | Have you experienced crime in South Africa?


No. I have never experience violent crime in South Africa. I can't think of anyone involved intimately with it either. I might know a friend who knows a cousin of a girl he used to dates' friends dog's owner who once knew someone involved in it....but nothing that comes to mind right away.

My advice is not one sides. My advice is saying there is crime , but assuring you that if you're middle classed you don't need to worry about it.

Of course there is always a risk of something happening to you. People get murdered in every country of the world everyday. I can never say there is no risk. I can just point out that middle clased south africans experience violent crime at about the same level or less than the united states of america.


----------



## Daxk

You did say you lived in Port Elizabeth and only visited your brother in Johanessburg. So I suppose thats possible .
You also have a personal stake in this,your Girlfriend who you are trying to persuade to move to SA reads here.
I have no stake in it.I want the country to succeed, I want people to invest in it, but i want them to do it as a fully informed person rather than be swayed by people who own or operate Tourism businesses or who have something to gain personaly.


----------



## bovinerebel

Daxk said:


> You did say you lived in Port Elizabeth and only visited your brother in Johanessburg. So I suppose thats possible .
> You also have a personal stake in this,your Girlfriend who you are trying to persuade to move to SA reads here.
> I have no stake in it.I want the country to succeed, I want people to invest in it, but i want them to do it as a fully informed person rather than be swayed by people who own or operate Tourism businesses or who have something to gain personaly.



She doesn't read here. But I sent her some youtube videos to show her what to expect. Nice holiday videos. She read the comments section and it was some of the most ridiculous scaremongering you could ever read. 

For example : cliftong beach. 

Comments : ?"It looks nice but don;t leave anything lying around it will be stolen and many people get dragged and raped behind the rocks. "

"The beach is ok...but you will probably get murdered before you even make it out the airport."

I mean...What the Fekk ????? So do you really think that gives a fair impression ?


----------



## Daxk

I dont know?
if you leave something lieing on a South African beach ,such as car keys,cell phone,watch, wallet,Handbag etc..how likely is it to get stolen?

have you read about anyone getting mugged,beaten up and or raped at SA Beaches?
The Road to the Airport? is'nt that where they sometimes throw lumps of concrete onto the cars??I'm sure there have been one or two fatalities along that stretch?

The Beach stealing, agreed,I would expect that to happen anywhere, it has'nt to me here yet in Ireland, but someone could get tempted.
The rest, have read and am sure can find the aticles again in news24 or IOL.co.za where exactly those things have happened to people on Beaches all over SA. including Cape Town.


----------



## bovinerebel

Daxk said:


> I dont know?
> if you leave something lieing on a South African beach ,such as car keys,cell phone,watch, wallet,Handbag etc..how likely is it to get stolen?
> 
> have you read about anyone getting mugged,beaten up and or raped at SA Beaches?
> The Road to the Airport? is'nt that where they sometimes throw lumps of concrete onto the cars??I'm sure there have been one or two fatalities along that stretch?
> 
> The Beach stealing, agreed,I would expect that to happen anywhere, it has'nt to me here yet in Ireland, but someone could get tempted.
> The rest, have read and am sure can find the aticles again in news24 or IOL.co.za where exactly those things have happened to people on Beaches all over SA. including Cape Town.


I bet you could drive from the airport to the beach for 1000 years non stop and would still only have a very small tiny chance of being murdered (and thats understating how unlikely it would be). You'd much more likely die in a car crash 10 times over before you were murdered .....so does that stop you driving your car ? By the same logic it should. Again you're proposing the most ridicuolous freakish things as common place. Has someone , sometime been raped on a beach ? yes. Has someone been struck by lightning ...yes. Are you starting to understand the anaology ?

Extremely low possibility does not equate to probability other than in the minds of the irrational and neurotic.


----------



## Daxk

Sinchronicity?Clive Hunter in todays News24, South Africa's premier news source, provides breaking news on national, world, Africa, sport, entertainment, technology & more. on the beach near Richards bay?


----------



## Chantal

It is heart beraking to read the crime views on my home country. I have to admit though, you could be right, maybe I am just accustomed to it than that of other countries although i have to say i felt safer in my home country than i did in London. Maybe this is due to the fact that i know where to go and where not to go in my country to the pont where it is second nature to me. I've said it before in previous forums, it's all about the area and the city. This will impact hugely on your safety. If you are considering moving here it is imperative that you do your home work, much more so than other countries. It is very different to the rest of the world, you have to know your travelling routes to and from wherever you are going to avoid getting stuck in the wrong area or the wrong place at the wrong time... stay out of Johannesburg - every area is dangerous there. Other than that the rest of the country is quite fine. Please bare in mind that 70% of crime statistics are Johannesburg based crimes. Make sure that you get in touch with a fellow south african who can advise you on where to live and routes to and from places. Once you do that you will be fine.


----------



## Daxk

I have been asked in a PM why I am so bitter about SA, without mentioning the posters name i wish to reply publicly.

I am NOT Bitter!
I love the place to bits,my mother and siblings still stay there, my daughter calls herself an African Girl.
But, just because I love SA does not mean I am prepared to excuse the idiocy and incompetence that happens there, nor am I going to allow people to BS about its very real dangers by minimising it.
I dont care wether people go there or not.

But dont go there and think its as safe as whereever you come from.

Client of mine went to CT on Honeymoon last year,they could see the V&A from the hotel, the porter said let me call you a taxi , no thanks was the response,probably the brother in laws taxi service!!

they got 300 yards from the hotel and they were running.
They were lucky, the porter was watching from the hotel and he and two waiters ran too, the shadows ducked.

That would have given my Country a bad name.
If they had done some research they would have listened to the porter's advice.

The two little American missionaries on the South Coast who got raped, did'nt anyone explain that you dont hitchhike in SA?

The little Belgian Girl who arrived at Wits a week, did'nt anyone warn her about going to an open party in Soweto??
The swimming Coach for the Special Olympics in Durban?
Did she and her partner think a Moonlight stroll on the Beachfront was safe? of course they did. 
I dont care that it might happen elswhere, I care that it happens too often in my Country and it is minimised and brushed aside along with the too high murder rate and too high rape rate and the inexcusable failure of the Justice to lock them away ,forever!
So my Countrymen all say you just have to be careful, it only happens in the townships, just be vigilant,
People are only as vigilant as they are used to.

Jhbg is the pits, PE and Durban and Cape are safer, but they are not immune.


----------



## Chantal

Have to agree - as i was reading your last post i found myself thinking "Well these people are asking for trouble doing what they doing, who the hell goes to soweto and expects to come out alive? It's the devils graveyard!!!" but as you have very well stated, it's not the norm. It's tragic to come to the realisation that to enjoy S.A. you have to have lived there long enough to understand the do's and don'ts. Hence my advise - do plenty of home work, more than any other country probably, find a friend there to direct you. If you do not have the correct direction you can count yourself being another statistic. Do it properly and carefully and you will love it.


----------



## Suid-Afrikaner

Americanmade said:


> ...if you look at what they went through, there is plenty of reasons that they are behaving this way.
> 
> 
> 
> Americanmade - I agree with what you said above but do you think the 'eye for an eye' approach is in the best interest of all South Africans, blacks inclusive? Do you consider yourself properly informed of what the situation in the country is at this moment?
> 
> Honestly I don't think ANYONE can pass comment on South Africa or it's citizens if they haven't lived there themselves and experienced daily life.
> 
> Justifying the actions of government and the reverse racist situation in the country only serves to bring the country down further until one day, there is nothing left for anyone.
> 
> Americanmade and others with the same mentality: what do you think lies in the future of South Africa if you say that the blacks are justified in doing what they are doing at the moment? Do you believe the country will grow and prosper? I'd be really interested to read your opinion.
> 
> I left South Africa 9 months ago to live in Dubai. I had no future as a Secretary/PA there. I could not afford a car and rent on the salary I got and feel that I do not have a future there. Now I live comfortably and most importantly, I do not have to fear for my life everytime I'm alone at home, drive to the shop, stop at traffic lights, walk alone anywhere. I've been able to completely change my mindset in Dubai and because fear and cautiousness is not the most important part of my life anymore I've felt an enormous amount of stress leave me and I feel healthier.
> 
> I am white and Afrikaans-speaking but I am not a racist. Apartheid is dispicable but what happened in the past is no reason or excuse for what is happening today! I love my country and would love to go back but right now it is not possible and it would just be plain stupid of me.
Click to expand...


----------



## Stravinsky

As I keep saying, this poster was banned some time ago as clearly a troll


----------



## Halo

NationMaster - Murders (per capita) (most recent) by country
(This is now higher - I believe SA is now No.1)

NationMaster - Rapes (per capita) (most recent) by country

NationMaster - Gun violence > Homicides > Overall homicide rate > per 100,000 pop. (most recent) by country

Nice..... Top place to immigrate to.


----------



## acassim

^^ Amazing. And to quote a top government person - "there is NO crime problem in South Africa".


----------



## Mickyxxx

Well I have to say that I have lived in SA and now visit often, I have walked around Cape Town at night many times, I would not walk around London at night, my friend was badly beaten there last year by a gang of kids, my half brother has lived in Durban for many years and would not live anywhere else even though he has a house on the Isle Of Wight in England which he rents. The teenagers are polite, where I live here it's a nightmare with swearing nasty arrogant kids beating up old people and trashing the busses etc, and I live in a nice area. There is crime everwhere, you would not get out alive in lots of no-go areas in Florida etc. When I visit Cape Town, Durban and other towns I am amazed at the building thats going on, hotels, golf courses ,apartments, the roads are far better than here as are supermarkets and food etc, I do find that some whites living in SA are rather bitter and rather biased. I have holidayed in Italy where I was dragged along the road by a scooterist stealing my camera and in Paris my mobile was stolen and when I resisted was punched and kicked and no-one helped. Millions of tourist visit SA with no bother at all, I have many friends in SA and no-one I knowhas been murdered or mugged or raped, the beaches are crowded in Durban and Cape Town in the season. I am English and England has gone to the dogs hence hundreds of thousands leaving yearly ,some to SA


----------



## Halo

Then you don't know many South Africans.... Either you are naive or just very lucky as while that is your opinion, its simply not the case..... (if you want stats, just ask)

PS If you walk thought a mine field not knowing its one and survive you would think its the safest place on earth.


----------



## Daxk

Yes,Mickyxxx I know, I cant believe how badly the poms have screwed up their Child raising. Government and now, as a result of political correctness, their Society.

CT does appear to be safer than anywhere else in SA, Durban I grew up in does not exist anymore, and I'm not suprised you have'nt met anyone who has been raped or lost a family member through Murder.

or even an armed Home invasion.

Most of us leave as soon as we can after thats happened.
FRom your side, the Weather ,the scenery, the Cheap ifestyle and servants, its obviously a paradise.

Any idea why so many South Africans have left? a lot to the very dangerous, gloomy,Damp
UK you want so desparately to leave?
Not all stay in the UK, some do go back, others then use that as a stepping stone to get to Aus.
Figures Vary, but an accurate Guide is that 841,000 white South Africans left betwen two census points.
Now they dont publish those figures.a rough estimate is somewhere between 1 million and two million South Africans prefer to raise their children somewhere else?

Do you think they might know something abot dear old Africa that you dont?


----------



## Mickyxxx

When I was last in Cape Town there were lines of South Africans queuing up buy apartments as second homes and investments in developments like Cartwrights Corner , and in Durban, my brother said the same was happening, so why werent they investing overseas and why are there so many international hotel chains being built, golf courses etc if its so bad and why is tourism rising dramatically. Foreign investment of many billions of Rand from America, Japan, China the oil states etc are flowing into SA. Barclays and Chinese banks have spent billions buying up banks in SA, they are all wrong to do so?
And according to Pam Golding and other estate agents , many expates are investing in SA property, why?
Everwhere you go in SA there is change, new estates , cranes everywhere so all these countries and investors are all wrong are they?
Everyone knows there is a crime problem in SA as there is in most parts of the world.
I have driven all over SA had many holidays without any trouble, I dont go near townships and crime area's as I dont do in America Brazil and Europe.


I actually bought an apartment which was snapped up when I replaced it on the market, by a SA lady for owned property in Hong Kong. I owned a house in Durban North which was purchased by a South African.
My neighbour was burgled and the police didn't even bother to attend.
One of my brother's shop near London was broken into so many times he gave up and sold, his house was also trashed.
I live in England and am not moving anytime soon but lots of my friends have moved to France as Britain has changed so much in recent years.
Take a trip into Docklands London , you will find many gated comunities with security guards .


----------



## MichaelJ47

Hi Micky

SA has to be one of the cheapest countries for a foreigner to live in particularly if you are arriving with GBP or Euro's. Yes, many foreigners are buying property here but it is still less than 0.05% of total purchases.The government tried to bring a rule last year banning foreigners from buying here but it is on hold at the moment.

Also some interesting laws that were promulgated last year in property...if the government likes your property and wants it they can offer you ANY value and you must take it as they have first choice before anyone else...there is a term for that action 

and all Public Open Space is now designated government property to be allocated and developed anyway that they see fit whenever that may be..

Did Pam Golding also tell you that the economy is booming so well that they have downsized every single extra office they can possibly find in the Western Cape, sliced the staff members by about 1 third etc. 

They also didnt mention that one of their agents was shot to death in her show house about 3 weeks ago in the Cape Town area did they? or that Chubb security has a special deal with estate agents to protect them in areas in Sunday show houses ?

Or that private security firms have been hired in some areas to protect police stations that can't protect themselves .

No doubt the banks failed to mention that SA has some of the highest bank charges on the planet and Reserve Bank rulings state that a bank may lend out 10x more than its security. 
It is a fact there is a very interesting site called bankgate dot co dot za that can keep you up to date with all the ethical dealings the great banks in SA have.

Cranes everywhere ...in some areas yes..in other areas developments were sold in the boom years 2004/2005 and the current owners are getting financially burned. Look at all the property for sale and all the Auction boards up all over the place yet very few buyers to match the supply. Many apartment buildings standing empty.

Rental returns are apalling with owners having to subsidise rentals 50% or more and that doesnt even cover the bond. Then there is still the management fees on top of that.

The only reason your property would be snapped up would be because it was at a bargain price or bought by a buyer who wanted that unit only. Well done anyway - good for you! Its always nice to hear of successes

You are correct every country has it's problems but unfortunately SA's crime is out of control with no end in sight. If one has a choice why would you want to endure this ? Why wouldn't you want to live somewhere else for a while ?

Millions have left the country yet a handful still return every year. There is no place like home and living here is very unique but there are other exciting, safer places to be , particularly if you have a partner and kids.

The truth is I dont want to live behind bars , electronic fences, alarms and gated villages. I want to be able to walk down the street in safety or swim on the beach with out having my stuff stolen or being attacked . I am tired of living in fear now I just want to live


----------



## MichaelJ47

I just want to add to this thread a little before all the flaming starts .....

This problem is affecting everyone in this country, right across the spectrum. The poor & disadvantaged are preyed on relentlessly by their own people. A young man who works as staff of ours was attacked and stabbed in the head for his sneakers when he went outside on his own property to the toilet. He was in hospital for a week. Suspects got off scott free

His 3 month old cousin was raped as the belief is if you have sex with a young child it cures aids . The child is in hospital and the culprits are unknown.

He dare not buy anything new or aspire to a better life or he becomes a target. We offered to finance his schooling for him as he is a bright young man but his "friends" have warned him that he better not get any bright ideas about going back to school or he may come to sticky end. 

Mothers used to tuck there money into their bra when they went home so the thieves wouldn't find it, now those same thieves make them squat and search their most private of areas - how humiliating that must be and you can't get help from the cops and you cannot get away from the area you live in.

Xenophobia..hard working Central & Northern African immigrants come to this country and and are killed because they work damn hard when they are employed or start their own businesses . Yet those who do little break down the good for all. 

Much of our crime is syndicated by drug gangs and car hijackers and it is permeating from JHB right throughout the country. Our cops get paid a pittance and some turn a blind eye - who can blame them - its not right but it happens.

Have you seen how the taxis drive here - right past the cops and nothing is done ..do you know why? The cops stay in the same area as the Taxi owners and are threatened with their life if they intervene or their families are threatened and in SA crime does pay and you do get away with murder. Hence only those who will pay are fined ..makes perfect economical sense to me. I don't like it but that is the way it works. Very sad but very true. 

When you travel to the interior some camera traps are set to snap every car which passes. Those with out of town registration get sent fines knowing full well that it is impossible to contest and the drivers will pay without a fuss to avoid the frustration. Minor mischief but corruption is visible on all levels

Please think carefully before you move your family here . By all means come for an extended holiday. Buy property come out for a beautiful holiday - we would love to have you here for a while


----------



## Mickyxxx

The economy isn't booming nor is it in the UK or anywhere else but the potential as an emerging country along with other African countries is far greater than western countries hence the huge ongoing investment, 95% of SA property is purchased by South Africans.
There is a worldwide downturn in property, I wouldn't be buying in Dubai, falls are predicted at 25% soon. Many estate agents in GB are going out of bussiness and look at the USA
The SA Government wanted to stop Foreigners buying prime property espcially waterfront property as this as been targeted by overseas buyers, I cannot see this happening, time will tell.
I sold my apartment last year at a 50% profit , there are no other apartments in my block for sale and another I was recently looking at is sold out
I will look into some of your other statements and report here.
ASBA bank is operated and owned by Barclays and SA have stringent mortgage laws to stop buyers lending beyond their means which is the cause of the property crashes elsewhere
My apartment was a one bed and achieved R8000 a month or 6.5% net and was let very quickly. I did not sell at a bargain price either making a nice profit being the reason I sold.
My Brother his family and many relatives live in Durban and Cape Town and are very happy to do so, they could come to GB but don't want to
Good luck in Dubai, they arrest you if you take an asprin or a drink, who would want to live in a desert anyway


----------



## MichaelJ47

Mickyxxx said:


> The economy isn't booming nor is it in the UK or anywhere else but the potential as an emerging country along with other African countries is far greater than western countries hence the huge ongoing investment, 95% of SA property is purchased by South Africans.
> There is a worldwide downturn in property, I wouldn't be buying in Dubai, falls are predicted at 25% soon. Many estate agents in GB are going out of bussiness and look at the USA
> The SA Government wanted to stop Foreigners buying prime property espcially waterfront property as this as been targeted by overseas buyers, I cannot see this happening, time will tell.
> I sold my apartment last year at a 50% profit , there are no other apartments in my block for sale and another I was recently looking at is sold out
> I will look into some of your other statements and report here.
> ASBA bank is operated and owned by Barclays and SA have stringent mortgage laws to stop buyers lending beyond their means which is the cause of the property crashes elsewhere
> My apartment was a one bed and achieved R8000 a month or 6.5% net and was let very quickly. I did not sell at a bargain price either making a nice profit being the reason I sold.
> My Brother his family and many relatives live in Durban and Cape Town and are very happy to do so, they could come to GB but don't want to
> Good luck in Dubai, they arrest you if you take an asprin or a drink, who would want to live in a desert anyway



Thanks for the wishes

I am going to miss the greenery and the mountains as Dubai is one big construction site. Currently I live in the most beautiful place on earth but it is a little limited and my days of partying with alcohol are long gone. Prefer interesting company and good conversation.

I have the opportunity to visit GB and will do so in the future although I am not sure that I would want to stay there permanently.

With the internet the world has become smaller and information access is so much easier so perhaps I will spend the next decade or so experiencing other lands and cultures. A change is long overdue


----------



## Daxk

mickeyxxx aka americanmade aka bovinerebel.
expatnewbie comes in, stirs, leaves.


----------



## Mickyxxx

MichaelJ47 said:


> Thanks for the wishes
> 
> I am going to miss the greenery and the mountains as Dubai is one big construction site. Currently I live in the most beautiful place on earth but it is a little limited and my days of partying with alcohol are long gone. Prefer interesting company and good conversation.
> 
> I have the opportunity to visit GB and will do so in the future although I am not sure that I would want to stay there permanently.
> 
> With the internet the world has become smaller and information access is so much easier so perhaps I will spend the next decade or so experiencing other lands and cultures. A change is long overdue


You forgot to mention that the Pam Golding estate agent was shot5 by her ex husband who was a policeman, it waqs a domestic shooting


----------



## MichaelJ47

Why is it , Daxx , do you think that outsiders are so vociferous and aggressive when they ask our opinions and we give them the answers according to our personal experiences ?

Why ask in the first place ? Are we not entitled to an opinion or a valid reason in our experience to enjoy normal life elsewhere in a place that does not threaten our existence and where personal freedoms are the norm not the exception?


----------



## MichaelJ47

You are quite right ..she was shot by her ex-husband who was a policeman. 
Let me see it is quite normal to get shot on a Sunday as an estate agent by a policeman ..I had forgotten that rule. Thanks for reminding me.


----------



## Mickyxxx

MichaelJ47 said:


> You are quite right ..she was shot by her ex-husband who was a policeman.
> Let me see it is quite normal to get shot on a Sunday as an estate agent by a policeman ..I had forgotten that rule. Thanks for reminding me.


Most murders in the UK are domestic, I didn't say it was normal ,just stating a fact that I thought was important in the context of your statement which I thought misleading


----------



## Mickyxxx

Try France I built a house in the Dordogne and lived there for 2 years, just sold it lovely place, food wasnt as good as they say, the South African wine is better as is the food. The French are very friendly but the bureaucracy got to me in the end, houses are cheap to. Roads very good, can drive 600miles in 8 hours
If you need any info on France just ask


----------



## MichaelJ47

Yes ..you are quite right, it is important to be factual and whereas I have tried to soften the experiences a little because some facts are just too hard to express in black and white. 

I do still find it a little difficult that members of the police force who are there to protect us can blatantly kill an innocent woman as she goes about her legitimate business with clients on a Sunday 

I mean if he shot her at home on a Monday it would have sounded so much better. Why go and screw up the industry by doing this at a show house and particularly on Sunday - good heavens this is a Christian country - Sundays are sacrosanct ! And lets not forget that it wasn't actually Cape Town but one of the better suburbs.

Yes, I know the muggers out there are going to disagree, because it is so convenient at a show house, while the agent is distracted, you can sneak up and do all kinds of things ..they did invite you inside anyway didn't they ?

You could even reason that it was consential too. Self defense even.. I mean lets face it marriage vows do say " till death do us part ". You can't get a better invite than that besides by the time the case docket gets lost the chances of you actually appearing in court is minute.

But please guys not on a Sunday, ok! It's bad form - scares the buyers away


----------



## Mickyxxx

MichaelJ47 said:


> Yes ..you are quite right, it is important to be factual and whereas I have tried to soften the experiences a little because some facts are just too hard to express in black and white.
> 
> I do still find it a little difficult that members of the police force who are there to protect us can blatantly kill an innocent woman as she goes about her legitimate business with clients on a Sunday
> 
> I mean if he shot her at home on a Monday it would have sounded so much better. Why go and screw up the industry by doing this at a show house and particularly on Sunday - good heavens this is a Christian country - Sundays are sacrosanct ! And lets not forget that it wasn't actually Cape Town but one of the better suburbs.
> 
> Yes, I know the muggers out there are going to disagree, because it is so convenient at a show house, while the agent is distracted, you can sneak up and do all kinds of things ..they did invite you inside anyway didn't they ?
> 
> You could even reason that it was consential too. Self defense even.. I mean lets face it marriage vows do say " till death do us part ". You can't get a better invite than that besides by the time the case docket gets lost the chances of you actually appearing in court is minute.
> 
> But please guys not on a Sunday, ok! It's bad form - scares the buyers away


Better the day better the deed.................sorry bad taste


----------



## MichaelJ47

The scary thing is Micky, that we are becoming totally blase' about the levels here. A bit like the joke of the frog in cold water that is slowly heated. Had half these daily atrocities occurred in a caring country the outcry would still be heard.

But we look at child rapes and the reaction is ..".oh another one"..when in fact we should be shocked to our core. The brutality levels here are excessive and pretty scary. As Halo mentioned it's what happens after the robber has got the trinkets, car, etc why is it necessary to cut off your digits, rape your family, shoot and torture, burn your house down ? Yes some of it may be payback for apartheid but much of it isn't

I have watched some US TV and look at the responses that the cops have ..they actually seem to care!! I was shocked ..so different to my experiences here.

My cousins live in Midrand on a small holding 3 months ago they were burgled ..the perps drove their truck through their lounge wall , got out loaded the goodies, pistol whipped the husband, attacked the women then calmly got back in the truck and left. No one saw anything ...the cops can't find any evidence and the likely hood of them coming back for seconds is reasonably high as this is not the 1st time it has occurred. 

We live in a beautiful country with huge potential but we have some serious problems to overcome and I doubt the answer is going to found in the next decade. I just don't want to be the next statistic. I am pretty certain this would not happen under Moslem law


----------



## Mickyxxx

MichaelJ47 said:


> The scary thing is Micky, that we are becoming totally blase' about the levels here. A bit like the joke of the frog in cold water that is slowly heated. Had half these daily atrocities occurred in a caring country the outcry would still be heard.
> 
> But we look at child rapes and the reaction is ..".oh another one"..when in fact we should be shocked to our core. The brutality levels here are excessive and pretty scary. As Halo mentioned it's what happens after the robber has got the trinkets, car, etc why is it necessary to cut off your digits, rape your family, shoot and torture, burn your house down ? Yes some of it may be payback for apartheid but much of it isn't
> 
> I have watched some US TV and look at the responses that the cops have ..they actually seem to care!! I was shocked ..so different to my experiences here.
> 
> My cousins live in Midrand on a small holding 3 months ago they were burgled ..the perps drove their truck through their lounge wall , got out loaded the goodies, pistol whipped the husband, attacked the women then calmly got back in the truck and left. No one saw anything ...the cops can't find any evidence and the likely hood of them coming back for seconds is reasonably high as this is not the 1st time it has occurred.
> 
> We live in a beautiful country with huge potential but we have some serious problems to overcome and I doubt the answer is going to found in the next decade. I just don't want to be the next statistic. I am pretty certain this would not happen under Moslem law


I suggest you dont go to NZ my friend just came back from there, murders daily and the thefts would put SA in the shade with there population of 5million, wouldnt go to Brazil either, so much crime that they all moved out of the city and created another, another murder here in UK today by a gang making 17 this month, Watched that cyclist who rode around the world he was almost murdered in USA, hated the place , couldnt get out of his hotel room and the number of fly drive tourists to Florida that have been targeted as they drove from the airport and shot , you seem to run your country down alot, When my parents went to SA they teamed up with American missionaries and ran schools to educate the children in Zululand as they percieved a lack of education for black people , SA lacks skilled workers your ecconomy relies on them which previous governments ignored, now people want to abandon ship. My great great Aunt was a missionary in Basutoland as an 18year old girl married to a doctor, He went off for 7 years with their sons to fight the great war, she used to tell us of the tribes waving spears etc but she became a great hit and opened schools ,gardens etc, she didnt run away


----------



## Mickyxxx

Moslem law, wasn't it moslems who caused 9/11 who blew up a London bus killing 40 people , bought down a plane over Scotland killing over 100 and so on.
Britain is usually on high alert with cameras at every corner, we are targeted by terrorists here it used to be the IRA bombing in London when I worked there , I remember it well


----------



## Daxk

The Internet is such a great anonymous stage.


----------



## Halo

Mickyxxx said:


> Moslem law, wasn't it moslems who caused 9/11 who blew up a London bus killing 40 people , bought down a plane over Scotland killing over 100 and so on.
> Britain is usually on high alert with cameras at every corner, we are targeted by terrorists here it used to be the IRA bombing in London when I worked there , I remember it well


Ummmm, no it wasn't.


----------



## Mickyxxx

I think that you are deluding yourself, of course they were Moslems, including the telban


----------



## MichaelJ47

Mickyxxx said:


> I think that you are deluding yourself, of course they were Moslems, including the telban


You have a good point but I was referring to a stable country like the Dubai emirate.
Maybe it is a case of denial or "greener Grass Syndrome"


----------



## acassim

Mickyxxx said:


> I think that you are deluding yourself, of course they were Moslems, including the telban


rofl... you are amazingly stupid! i have no words for you as it seems that you are like an ostrich with your head stuck in the ground. open your eyes and look around and sometimes you should also wax your ears so that you can work on that hearing.


----------



## MichaelJ47

Micky, it is very dangerous lumping people together in groups without being specific, particular where misdeeds are committed. If I said I was robbed by a green person then all green people are bad it's like saying pink people caused 911 so all pink people must be shot.

Perhaps some pink, green and others were involved but it doesnt mean everyone is bad.

You are going to "pee off" a lot of good people by lumping them all together.By the same token I could say the Christians are a bunch of no good murdering swine and can't be trusted because look what they did in the crusades and the Spanish inquisition. And the Brits are even worse because of the soccer hoolganism and the culprits are British therefore all British are hooligans...phew dangerous stuff....and completely incorrect

And all Germans are bad because of the atrocities in the 2nd world war. Generalisation like this is extremely dangerous and patently untrue.

Coming back to the Moslem Law I was referring to: I meant strict punishment for crimes committed. Harsh jail sentences in unfriendly jails, cutting off of limbs and heads as a deterent etc and yes, I do know that that is not done in Dubai anymore but the culture influences are still prevalent to the area.

Perhaps if my country started enforcing a similar law with be-headings for drug dealers on a Friday afternoon there MAY be a reduction in the "meths heads" around or hey how about amputation for stealing? 

For every visible policeman on the streets in Dubai there are 30 CID undercover cops floating around. 

I, personally, feel extremely safe in Dubai in even the darkest alley compared to my home country. As you seem to feel extremely safe in my country from comments you made earlier

Very few Western Countries have done as much for their own people as the Emirates have done for theirs and I admire their rulers for that and their vision. I , personally, feel honored as an outsider to be offered the opportunity to work in their country for the kind of return that is impossible in mine. If it means a whole bunch of different rules so be it ..when I am a guest in your house I do what you expect from me ...but hey..thats just me


----------



## acassim

Thank you MichaelJ. You have put it more eloquently!
Yes Dubai is a much safer city than Jhb. I love it here. I can jump into my car at any time of day or night and go out without even thinking about it. I have left my car open on numerous occasions by mistake and nobody has even thought of getting into it. I have left my house keys (together with my car keys) on my house door by mistake and woke up the next morning looking for it only to find it still hanging on the other side... and guess what? Nobody has come into my space and demanded to take my things! When I get into my car, I have a smug feeling of throwing my handbag on the passenger seat without thinking of a smash and grab at the next robot! It's obviously healthier living such a carefree life like the one I live today. All because I live in a Muslim country where crime is under control.


----------



## Mickyxxx

oh deary me.im off, dont you know what goes on in Arab countries, obviously not, you are lucky one who hasnt been beheaded or stoned for adultery or had an arm cut off.bye good luck


----------



## Mickyxxx

why are you on here if it so wonerfull in Dubai.......to run your old country down and hope that it goes down the pan.......................there were 5million tourists in the first 3 months to SA , up 8% on last year and not one was mugged or rapped etc


----------



## Daxk

Yes Mickey, how many of those 5 million were from other African Countries? Nigeria especially?
and how many were from USA,UK,Europe? Countries that have strong Currencies?
and yes, not many of them at this time, the Belgian shot in front of his 18 year old son and the american tourist who got shot in the leg during a mugging are chicken feed, I agree.
I dont see anyone running SA down, Mickeyxxx, are you being particularly sensitive?
I also agree with you that Sharia Law is very strict, but it appears preferable to the lack of Law in Sa today.


----------



## Halo

Mickyxxx said:


> My Brother his family and many relatives live in Durban and Cape Town and are very happy to do so, they could come to GB but don't want to


Until they become the victims...



Mickyxxx said:


> Good luck in Dubai, they arrest you if you take an asprin or a drink, who would want to live in a desert anyway


This is not true.


----------



## Daxk

Mickyxxx"Good luck in Dubai, they arrest you if you take an asprin or a drink, who would want to live in a desert anyway"
About 20,000 Saffa's at the last count.


----------



## MichaelJ47

*Running my country down*



Mickyxxx said:


> why are you on here if it so wonerfull in Dubai.......to run your old country down and hope that it goes down the pan.......................there were 5million tourists in the first 3 months to SA , up 8% on last year and not one was mugged or rapped etc


Micky, I have lived here for 45 years in good times and bad and I have paid my more than my dues, as have my family. I live the reality everyday - I don't just come out for a short stay and fly back home when I want to.

As far as what happens in Arab countries - I am well versed in what happens there having friends who have lived in the Middle East for years and work for a number of the airlines, military hospitals in Saudi & Kuwait etc

Yes, I am on the way to the Middle East and no doubt they have their problems too and when my contract runs out I will choose to move on somewhere else if I want to.

As a resident & local taxpayer in SA I have every right to voice my dislike for what is happening here and I will continue to do so until something positive is done about it.


----------



## acassim

Lethu Mshini Wami


----------



## MichelleAlison

I thought this article was relevant to this thread.

Briton shot dead in front of his wife in South Africa 'during botched robbery' | Mail Online


----------



## Halo

IMHO - I am unable to comprehend why someone would move from a 1st world country to South Africa.

Why would you gamble with your life....?


----------



## Rockspider

*Bitter and twisted?*

Had to register. Stumbled on this forum and after reading through half the posts in this thread just had to say something. 

Daxk, you've had some bad experiences, yes really bad, but you sound near hysterical and hateful.

Not near the average SA's experience, but you are flooding the thread as if that is the average experience. I do believe your tone though will alert any readers as to the validity of your message.

I've lived outside SA for 5 yrs. Didn't leave because of crime. My ex got held up at gunpoint at an attempted armed robbery at her place of business, but I must honestly say that in 55 years that is the only violent crime I or any of my extended family, 90% of whom live in the Jhb/Pta area, ever experienced. Cannot recall any of my friends being victims of violent crime either.

Sure it happens, sure it is much higher than what anybody would like, but to make the place sound like a war zone makes me think you are freaking out a bit. You seem to have a massive axe to grind, and I'm not sure it all has to do with crime.

I currently live in Thailand. A nice safe place known as the Land of Smiles. In the 5 yrs. I have been here I have seen and heard of more violent deaths in my limited aquintances' circle than I've encountered in all my life in SA.

Just came back from a 6 month visit to SA, most of which was spent in Jhb/Pta. I was struck by the genuinely friendliness of people there. I've forgotten what real friendliness is in the time I was away. Strangers, not family and friends.

And encountered not a smidgen of crime.

I had to leave SA for economic reasons due to affirmative action, but hold no grudges. Would love to return. It's still one of the best countries in the world to live.


----------



## gkloken

*Is SA crime centre of the world*

Rockspider
.....I had to leave SA for economic reasons due to affirmative action, but hold no grudges. Would love to return. It's still one of the best countries in the world to live.[/QUOTE]

I have to support you on this aspect, after living in USA for 5 years in the western states plus Colorado and Texas I can just agree.
I could not believe the passionate friendliness, the warmheartedness, the love in general that I experienced from the day I arrived back in South Africa.

I had forgotten what it feels like to be spontaneous and "free" and seeing and feeling warmth , happiness and laughter from the people wherever I went in general.

After 1 year my only real sad /bad experience was from an independent Avis agency where the white owner kept on charging my international credit card for 5 months of car rental on ongoing basis while I used and signed only for 1 month .

Later found out he did not rent it out officially under Avis, collected this money for himself . 
So beware when visiting SA book Avis cars from your home country and collect only at airports or capital cities. Avis shrugged their shoulders.

My USA credit card company would not investigate saying they have signed slips ? I have only signed a contract and a cc slip for one month's as said before, after which the car was returned .

I was also charged twice for "one day rentals" in the same period when I did not have the car, which was claimed to be " speed tickets ". When I insist to see the tickets I was told they "do not get the info only the charge" . 
At least later it was admitted as additional car rentals on top of what I already was charged with... So I paid for all those months during which I did not had the car . 

But Africa have the most friendliest, passionate and warmhearted people I know after years of travel.


----------



## Halo

LOL - The fact remains..... its the crime capital of the world and if you're white you are in a spot of bother when it comes to jobs/promotion etc. (and hate crime)

I think the both of you need to return and start living there again..... Paying exorbitant rates for health/insurance.

Perhaps YOU don't know many people that have been affected by crime but sadly you are in the minority.

I also think you both need to assimilate into your new communities.

PS You good buddy Zuma is about to become the next King. Take care all.


----------



## gkloken

Halo said:


> LOL - The fact remains..... its the crime capital of the world and if you're white you are in a spot of bother when it comes to jobs/promotion etc. (and hate crime)
> 
> I think the both of you need to return and start living there again..... Paying exorbitant rates for health/insurance.
> 
> Perhaps YOU don't know many people that have been affected by crime but sadly you are in the minority.
> 
> I also think you both need to assimilate into your new communities.
> 
> PS You good buddy Zuma is about to become the next King. Take care all.


Well Well, I do live in South Africa and I am integrated in the communities most probably more than the average person.

I do not find the rates and insurances any more or different from what I paid in comparison in the USA or some of the other countries I lived in .

Could it be that what you believe or fear is what you attract to you ...? 

I did not experience hate or hate crimes. Interesting that you would refer to Zuma as our Buddy, when in actual fact you have no clue whether we have evermet him or not?

But then do you know Zuma personally and intimately so you can speak with authority, or are you also just a follower of the mass hysteria

There is a lot of greed that's a fact and sad to tell you this, but it is getting real bad amongst the "White" people in South Africa too and just for the record I am white but definitely not prejudiced .

As to Zuma as the "king" what different would it really be from say Obama becoming President in the USA? 

Doesn't he also then "have" what is so freely believed to be "the terrible African tendencies" in his veins since he originates from Kenya/Africa ?


----------



## Halo

You obviously don't understand Africa yet. Remember this post in 5-10 years.
(nice movement in parliament recently - enjoy the ride in SA)

PS What you are on about WRT insurance etc is ludicrous as I pay a fraction in the 1st world even when converting Azanian Dollars.
PPS Your Obama comment is proof you have no idea about Africa


----------



## Daxk

Gloken" But then do you know Zuma personally and intimately so you can speak with authority, or are you also just a follower of the mass hysteria"

Actually, Yes I do, and Tokio, Cyril, Both the Shaik Brothers and met Govan many years ago.
Thabo and Nelso,unfortunately not.


----------



## gkloken

Halo said:


> You obviously don't understand Africa yet.
> (nice movement in parliament recently - enjoy the ride in SA)
> PPS Your Obama comment is proof you have no idea about Africa


Thanks I had a real nice chuckle reading your reaction .
Our interim President is just getting sworn in , and it is not Mr Zuma.
I do know Africa, I was born in Africa, am in Africa and understand Africa and "Africans" perfectly well.


----------



## Daxk

glocken,it cant be Zuma, he is'nt a member of Parliament at the moment or there would have been pressure from ANCYL to appoint him


----------



## gkloken

Daxk said:


> Glocken,it cant be Zuma, he is'nt a member of Parliament at the moment or there would have been pressure from ANCYL to appoint him


Daxk, even a dumb blond could know that, my post is a response to Halo's comment.


----------



## Daxk

hehhehe Gloken,just checking wether it was bottle or Natural blonde


----------



## gkloken

Now which one would be considered to be dumb, the bottle or natural....?


----------



## Daxk

The bottle obviously,I gather it removes Brain Cells faster than members of the Presidency can shred papers.


----------



## gkloken

Daxk said:


> The bottle obviously,I gather it removes Brain Cells faster than members of the Presidency can shred papers.


 MMM! The Vice President is not a member of parliament, never was, but acted as Speaker of the House before, no experience as such, it would be a learning curve for her. (no blond hair there ..)


----------



## Daxk

It was an Honorary position negotiated with the ANC womens Leaugue just as Zuma negotiated that his running mate will be female to get the Womens Leaugue support at Polokwane
You will note that there was no question of phumzile being appointed even tho that is what the constitution said should happen.


----------



## bryan buys

Americanmade said:


> Actually it is not your country BUT the Blacks country and if you look at what they went through, there is plenty of reasons that they are behaving this way.
> Funny, what is happening now is no more discusting and dispicable than what happened to them for hundreds of years by the hands of the Dutch. I wonder how much you said and did to help the Blacks when the Dutch were treating them as slaves for so long in their own country!


hi mate (americabmade)

get you facts right ... south Africa is a multinational country as such is England America, Brazil and so on and so on. i did not do anything bad to any one in South Africa. so now you are telling me i don't have the right to live in my own country where i was born and so my father and his and his....................................are you American? if you are you native American other wise .........what are you doing there? 

look out what you say to anybody about that type of stuff before you have all your fact in place ...... because you are actually getting it wrong.


----------



## Halo

gkloken said:


> Thanks I had a real nice chuckle reading your reaction .
> Our interim President is just getting sworn in , and it is not Mr Zuma.
> I do know Africa, I was born in Africa, am in Africa and understand Africa and "Africans" perfectly well.


In waiting.... it only a matter of time sir.


----------



## sebastianfor

And what about other cities I mean for example Durban, Kimberley, Bloemfontein.
Is there safety?
I would like to move to RSA in November this year.
And what about other situations for example health. 

What should I do?
I heard in RSA there is no malaria, so I do not have to take any medicaments.
I sthat true?


----------



## Daxk

Sebastiafor,
www,saps.org.za crime stats gives you the facility to get incident crime stats by City. and even suburb.

Having said that,although Crime is everywhere in the World, Violent crime is what scares most.

It can happen anywhere but Cape Town, Durban, Kimberly, Bloemfontein ARE safer than Johannesburg/Pretoria area.

Malarial areas are the Eastern Parts of the Country so if you look at those parts that border on Mocambique although Malaria has occurred even in Pretoria but those are isolated cases.

Malaria is basically not that prevalent anyway and is easily treatable.

Most parents teach their kids the following basic checks, any headache that lasts for two days is serious, any wound that does'nt look if its healing after 2 days needs treatment,the colour of your Urine will indicate wether you are dehydrated or not and Black Faeces or Pink urine means get to a Hospital quickly.

Africa has many interesting ways to kill you but if you listen carefully to local advice you will be fine.


----------



## Halo

Daxk said:


> Africa has many interesting ways to kill you but if you listen carefully to local advice you will be fine.


Sure.... Until its you.

YouTube - New South Africa - Daylight Robbery
(watch some of the side video's to see what SA is becoming)

Its a slow process that I would hate anyone to have to go though - If by some miracle SA comes out smelling of roses, move there by all means as its a beautiful country - Right now..... stay away especially if you have kids.


----------



## Daxk

agreed, Halo., if you have kids, SA is the last place to take them to.
Thats why I left.


----------



## Tree3000

*My thoughts on the subject*

There is one thing that I hate about SA, its government inability to get any sort if a grip on a spiraling completely out of control crime rate. I would have never left the country, I love it, but family comes first and for the sake of my family we had to leave. I was basically forced to leave because I was left without a choice. I was a victim of a hijacking and thank G-d my family wasn’t with me at the time. Everyone I know, and I am not exaggerating, everyone has experienced crime first hand, it’s not if its when, and I am not prepared to sit around and wait for it to come and destroy my family. At the end of the day everyone has been talking about this bright future on the horizon in the 90s, its 2008 and less and less people talk about now, its just doesn’t look like there is any place out there where it can magically just appear from. 
If someone complains he is automatically branded a racist. The racist card has been thrown in peoples faces for the last 14 years and it is still a standard excuse for anything that goes wrong. Affirmative action and BEE has been around for a while, even though I personally believe that it is completely racist, basically a legal version of racism, still everything is white’s fault. The white’s are the minority after all.
Also constant livings behind high walls, constant worry about every noise you hear in the night, don’t feel secure in your own home. What kind of life is that?


----------



## HereForNow

I'm in Cape Town, and the crime here seems less than or the same as in London.


----------



## Daxk

Sorry Double post.
Hypnotherapy,I have no idea, I have never lived in London and I have'nt been to CT in years, my impression from News24 .co za and iol.co.za, both reputable news feeds,is that there is a slow increase in violent crime in the suburbs, just an impression based on what was reported previously till recent reports.


----------



## HereForNow

I must admit that I have lived in inner-city London, and compared to that, Cape Town is reasonable. However, nothing would take me to Johannesburg, due simply to the crime. I don't even want to visit.


----------



## Halo

HereForNow said:


> I must admit that I have lived in inner-city London, and compared to that, Cape Town is reasonable. However, nothing would take me to Johannesburg, due simply to the crime. I don't even want to visit.


What do you class as inner-city London? - Its a big place.... While there is a fair amount of theft (10million people from everywhere - many many illegal) you generally never get killed for your goods and the police RESPOND in minutes.

Sure there are problem areas but there are reasons for this.

Cape-Town is living on borrowed time.... and will follow the rest of SA.


----------



## MichelleAlison

Halo said:


> What do you class as inner-city London? - Its a big place.... While there is a fair amount of theft (10million people from everywhere - many many illegal) you generally never get killed for your goods and the police RESPOND in minutes.


Although I don't live in London anymore, I read the newspapers online everyday and the biggest complaint is that the police DO NOT respond quickly - one family held a burglar prisoner in their house, only to be told by the police that they had no one to send round, so they should release him .............................................


----------



## Daxk

OK, without getting into a stats war which no-one wins, the SAPS one will give you the incidence of Crime and nature of it by SAPS Station, The london Metropolitan one by Ward,
For 2008 sofar, 1% of VIOLENT Crime involved firearms and 6% involved Knives.(In the UK)

http://www.saps.gov.za/statistics/reports/crimestats/2008/_provinces/w_cape/pdf/westerncape.pdf
Compared to 
Metropolitan Police Service - Crime statistics
Western Capes Population is either3.5 Million or 4.5 Million depending on which Source you use with Cape Town Proper having 1 Million.
London's Population is 9 Million.
Johannesburg as a Counterpoint has 4.5 Million Known Residents.


----------



## Halo

MichelleAlison said:


> Although I don't live in London anymore, I read the newspapers online everyday and the biggest complaint is that the police DO NOT respond quickly - one family held a burglar prisoner in their house, only to be told by the police that they had no one to send round, so they should release him .............................................


And? Without sounding rude.... Please think before you speak.... Crime gets "reported" in the UK - and if you take the population and divide it by that which is violent crime the chances of it happening, is TINY. (even in Brixton)

Please refer to
NationMaster - Murders (per capita) (most recent) by country for more information and remember that much of the crime in SA goes unreported.
(yes, this is the whole country but its a good indicator)

SA in 20 years = Nigeria


----------



## MichelleAlison

Halo said:


> And? Without sounding rude.... Please think before you speak.... Crime gets "reported" in the UK - and if you take the population and divide it by that which is violent crime the chances of it happening, is TINY. (even in Brixton)
> 
> Please refer to
> NationMaster - Murders (per capita) (most recent) by country for more information and remember that much of the crime in SA goes unreported.
> (yes, this is the whole country but its a good indicator)
> 
> SA in 20 years = Nigeria




Quote:
Originally Posted by MichelleAlison View Post
Although I don't live in London anymore, I read the newspapers online everyday and the biggest complaint is that the police DO NOT respond quickly - one family held a burglar prisoner in their house, only to be told by the police that they had no one to send round, so they should release him .............................................


Halo,

Without sounding rude, you need to read posts properly before you respond. I was responding to the post you made that police respond immediately to crime in the UK and I was saying that this wasn't true. In many cases today, they do not even bother coming to the crime scene and if they do, it can be many hours later. I was burgled a few years ago in London and it took the police about five hours to turn up!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Halo

Apologies....

While that is true, you do not lose your life and goods can be replaced. Police have more important work to do.... like catch violent offenders, which they do with great efficiency.


----------



## MichelleAlison

Halo said:


> Apologies....
> 
> While that is true, you do not lose your life and goods can be replaced. Police have more important work to do.... like catch violent offenders, which they do with great efficiency.



Apology accepted.

I won't comment on your above statement, as we will be off-topic, although I would love to!

Happy New Year

Michelle


----------



## Daxk

MichelleAlison said:


> Apology accepted.
> 
> I won't comment on your above statement, as we will be off-topic, although I would love to!
> 
> Happy New Year
> 
> Michelle


Michelle, it would surely still be on topic ?
The whole Subject boils down to Crime and Punishment (with apologies to Dostoevsky)
Victims of Crime need Closure.
Trying to compare one Country or Cities Crime rate with another is facile , unless you have Common Denominator, and that can only be based fairly on Convictions.
If You have a crime rate and a low solved and Conviction Rate then there is either a problem with the Police or the Justice System or Both.

And that is what makes SA the Crime Capital, 
Mbeki tried to minimise the SA Crime situation by saying that 83% of all Murders, the Victim and perpetrator were known to each other, what he neglected to say was that in 83% of Solved Murder Cases the Assailant and Victim knew each other, because thats the easiest case to solve.
The Law Socity's investigation showed that when you compare reported Murders to Conviction Rates, you have a 90% chance of either not getting caught or if caught, getting away with it.
And only 11% of all rape cases resulted in a conviction.

If you compare Reported Crime to Convictions it changes the whole ball game
wether it be washington, London or Cape Town.


----------



## Halo

Too many in SA now have their heads in the sand..... I won't happen to me.

Solution: Build higher walls, electrify them and make sure you have a panic room.

Enjoy the new year all


----------



## Slim

I am one of those who said I will never leave. I love South Africa. It is one of the most beautiful countries in the world and one of a very few that has all five ecosystems. 

However, watching my country fall to pieces is heartbreaking to say the least and the rate of "decay" is accelerating at a hell of a speed. 

What most of the blacks forget is that the Afrikaner was oppressed by the British with their wives and children left to die and starve in concentration camps, their farms burnt to the ground, all their worldly possesions destroyed. But they rose from the ashes and in less than a single generation restored their livelyhood. But conveniently this is left out of the history books (worldwide) and we are instead told to feel sory for the black population and appologise profusely for the rest of our lives. Even if you had no part in their "oppresion". 

South Africas infrastructure is falling apart. Nepotism is the order of the day. Lazy civil servants are there only collect a paycheck and nothing else. Just walk into any government building South Africa expecting friendly, or for that matter, ANY service from their staff. 

I firmly believe that this country can be restored to its former glory and be a world power that can make it's mark and a true leader of Africa. But constantly living in the past, looking for someone else to blame for YOUR hardships, and never doing anything is the easy way out, and will never make this vision of South Africa (and indeed Africa) come to life. Apartheid ended in 1990. Not 1994 as every body is told. That is 19 years ago. Yet today you get 16 year olds that plunder, rape, steal, murder and blame it all on the apartheid system. 

South Africa had 89,000 commercial farms in 1994. Today, we have less that 11,900 active commercial farms in operation. 

South Africa had one of the 5 most feared militaries in the world in 1990. That with an arms embrago in place. Today we sit with a HIV infected military force that wont be able to defend against even the tiniest of an attack. We have bought R60bn (about $10bn) worth of military equipment and not a single member of the South African military can operate these craft, or train others to operate these craft. 

South Africa is falling apart because the "majority" is clinging to the past and using it as their scapegoat whenever their incompetence is revealed, or they get caught with their hands in the cookie jar. Jacob Zuma himself said that he did not join the struggle to be poor.

This is South Africa without mentioning the horrible crime rate, the total disregard for even the most basic of laws, and absolutely no regard for traffic laws.

Dammit. I go to an overseas forum to ESCAPE South African politics and you lot draw me right back in... 

My 2c on the matter. I'm off to a happier thread...


----------



## Martinw

Tree3000 said:


> There is one thing that I hate about SA, its government inability to get any sort if a grip on a spiraling completely out of control crime rate. I would have never left the country, I love it, but family comes first and for the sake of my family we had to leave. I was basically forced to leave because I was left without a choice. I was a victim of a hijacking and thank G-d my family wasn’t with me at the time. Everyone I know, and I am not exaggerating, everyone has experienced crime first hand, it’s not if its when, and I am not prepared to sit around and wait for it to come and destroy my family. At the end of the day everyone has been talking about this bright future on the horizon in the 90s, its 2008 and less and less people talk about now, its just doesn’t look like there is any place out there where it can magically just appear from.
> If someone complains he is automatically branded a racist. The racist card has been thrown in peoples faces for the last 14 years and it is still a standard excuse for anything that goes wrong. Affirmative action and BEE has been around for a while, even though I personally believe that it is completely racist, basically a legal version of racism, still everything is white’s fault. The white’s are the minority after all.
> Also constant livings behind high walls, constant worry about every noise you hear in the night, don’t feel secure in your own home. What kind of life is that?


TREE3000 I agrre with you and could not have said it better myself. I dont think any SOuth African(Well at least 99.9%) that is living in another country if crime, fear, future for family and kids was not the reason. A lot of people see to say we are cowards, but yet people who leave to go to Hollywood or to try something new are prob called explorers or adventurers. I think any person prob longs to go back in time to the time and place we know, but sadly that is and will be never again. Some people might think I am sour only writing negative things about SA, but seriously is that not the truth. Living in AUS I am now realizing that maybe the world does not know what goes on there( Well I dont see any of it on TV, and Perth has a large SA community) so isnt it time to tell people the truth and let them know. I am not really talking to some of the pro South Africans who cannot find a fault, but rather to unsespected forreigners perhaps, who might have heard all these wonderfull stories from someone else thinking it might be a good country. It also appers that a lot of people are a bit afraid to bring upp the race issue. Why? is it not fact? Is it not fact that the blacks walk around at night in neighbourhoods, instead of sleeping, breaking into houses, singeling out white people, raping and killing. Hijacking cars, majority white prob, shooting people, torturing and raping white women and children. I know they do it to their own as well, but that is thier problem. White guys dont go around the shacks raping black women( who would want to) and killing their people. Arent you allowe to go to work, earn a living, look after your family and keep them safe. Well obviously if you are in SA NO. So who still wants to say that SA is such a beautiful country. Nice areas, For sure, I We loved the Drakensberg, was our favourite, but living in the suburbs, working in the city, Is that what you guys see, Beauty? We left in 2005, and I am pretty sure I remmber how filty Durban became, festive season the masses would get together on North Beach for 2 weeks, sleep, shower, in evryones view, urinated where they wanted, mugged people. Is that what younguys call beauty or wonderfull. And this was 3 years ago. I do not even want to imagine what it is like now. Well all I can say if that is what you see, i feel sorry for you, because that must be that your standards have dropped to their level. I am siorry, but I have my standards, they are high and I maintain them here in my peacefull quiet suburb of Mandurah, Western Australia. Please just dont try to convince people to stay or move their families there because you either like or accepted to live in filth.


----------

