# Oh my aching head!



## Montana2Spain (May 20, 2016)

I realize I'm asking a lot with this post but it seems the more I research the more confused I get with different opinions, experiences and information. So thought I'd try on here to see if anyone is familiar with what we are trying to do and can give me some sort of guidance. I'm going to lay it all out there so that maybe the answers given will be more tailored to our specific situation. That's the hope anyway. 

My spouse and I were planning to move abroad from the US for retirement but situations have arisen and the universe is screaming so we've decided to do it sooner than later. And we decided on Spain from past visits (the most recent a 3 week stint in April). My spouse is 57 and on early retirement (no pension or soc sec yet) and I'm 48 and self employed in accounting which I won't be able to do in Spain. We have two dogs, no kids. Spouse is fluent in Spanish while I am a work in progress.

We have real estate here in the States. The house we are in we own outright and will have little trouble selling for about 700k USD. We have assets in retirement accounts of about 200k. Also a second property that is a vacation rental that we intend to keep. It brings in about 30k USD/year but it also has a mortgage with a balance of approx 90k. Debt (cc etc) is minimal and can be cleared with the sale of the house. 

What we ultimately would like to do is rent for a while but ultimately the goal would be to purchase a B&B or some other type of business that would bring in some income that we could pair with the income from the vacation rental in the states. 

So really what I'm looking for is some advice on the type of visa, what that visa entails and provides, how is the visa attained and in what order. Also the health insurance that we need to purchase, we'd need to buy a used car so what is involved with that and attaining a drivers license. Is there anything I need to know regarding the pets. 

We are also thinking that one of us might go ahead and get the ball rolling (find a place to rent, a car, get settled) while the other stays behind and deals with the sale of the house and the selling/shipping of things. How difficult would that make things? How long would we have before we purchase something and then how long after that or before that do we attain a visa? 

Trying to get an idea of just how much this move will eventually cost so I can figure out how much we can spend on a property/business. 

Thanks, in advance, for any and all advise those who have done this sort of thing can give.


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## Montana2Spain (May 20, 2016)

I found this which seems pretty well explained and am hoping this is accurate.

Golden Visa law granting non-EU citizens Spanish residency - Let us help | Spain Property


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## Montana2Spain (May 20, 2016)

But then I read things like this which states that if we intend to stay longer than the 3 month tourist visa we need to get a residency visa from the embassy here in the US before we go. Our nearest one is in San Francisco and they only do it by appointment in person according to their website which creates challenges but very important. What I'm trying to avoid I guess are the circles that I see over and over in the forums. The "I need X but I can't get X until I have Y.. but then I can't get Y until I have X" loop of death. Or is there something I'm missing like this residency card instead of a visa... but if our intent is to buy a B&B but we havent yet found it and the card requires us to prove employment or self employment how exactly can one do that? And it also states in order to get the card you need a local address and so my question would be will be able to find a place to rent without a residency card. And then this is where I start getting confused. HA!

Non-EU Citizens Moving to Spain | Spain Property


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

:welcome:

It sounds like you still need to do a lot of research because you're missing some basic information. I'm not an expert at this, but let's see if I can set you on the right track.

You will need to get a visa from your nearest Spanish consulate in the States before you move over here. It's a complicated and rather lengthy process so be prepared for that. There are several types of visas you might be eligible for so you need to look into what's best for you. For instance there's the non-lucrative visa, the retirement visa, and the so-called "golden" or investment visa.

Once you get your visa you have 90 days to move to Spain and apply for residency at the foreigner's office in your Spanish city. One of you could stay behind to straighten out your affairs in the States, but only until the 90 days are up. 

Be aware that with most types of visas you aren't allowed to work in Spain at all - in other words, the idea of running a B&B would be out.

Getting health insurance in Spain is one of the requirements for getting the visa, so that would have to be taken care of as one of the first steps. 

Pets (cats and dogs) can be brought into Spain as long as they are micro-chipped, up to date on their vaccinations, and have a pet passport. 

Once you're resident in Spain you cannot drive using your American license. You have to get a Spanish one. Getting a driver's license in Spain is a complicated and expensive process. There's a written test based on a lengthy book, a required number of on-the-road classes, and then the driving test itself. The test must be done with a standard shift car. 

Have a look at the US Embassy website for some information about coming to Spain. 

There are also some blogs written by Americans who have come to Spain and that other people here on the forum have mentioned. I'll list them here but I don't have links, so you'll have to google them. The blogs give good information about the whole immigration process. 

Wagoners Abroad
Bucking the Trend (Jed)
Two Bad Tourists
Ready, Set, Spain!

I hope this helps!


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## Montana2Spain (May 20, 2016)

kalohi said:


> :welcome:
> 
> It sounds like you still need to do a lot of research because you're missing some basic information. I'm not an expert at this, but let's see if I can set you on the right track.
> 
> ...


Thanks Kalohi.

Everything helps and yes research is ongoing. The reason I posted in here is because I see conflicting information often and was hoping to find someone from the States that actually did the move on an Investor Visa so as to help with timeline etc. I'm quite certain it's the Investor Visa we will be attaining. I'm just getting confused with the step by step process of what to apply for, when to apply for it, where and in what relation to the actual purchase of property. Everyone I have talked to and everything I have read has given me no indication that I can not have a business like a B&B or hotel while on the Investor Visa. Actually I think they encourage it. I'm definitely in the mind set that everything is a long, complicated and expensive process but this does not discourage me. I'm just trying to make it so I'm not the one causing the long complicated and expensive process to be even more so. 

I will check out those blogs. Had a meeting with an international accountant this morning and am currently in the process of communication with the consulate both here and in Madrid to hopefully answer some of my process questions and figure out the timeline of what I need to aquire, when and in what order.

Research.... yes research is a constant!  Thanks again! 

Where did you move from and what type of visa did you attain?


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

I've been here for 30 years and things have changed a lot since I moved over! I came on a work visa to teach English - which wouldn't be possible any more - and then I married a Spaniard. Thanks to that I now have residency as a family member of an EU citizen (my husband). 

As for your situation, the investor visa is the one visa of the three that I listed that would allow you to work in Spain. To get it you have to invest a minimum of 500,000€ in property in Spain before you apply for the visa at a Spanish consulate in the United States. If you google "Spanish golden visa" you'll find more information than for "investor visa". Needless to say, if you're investing that much money internationally you'd be using lawyers and they should help you along.


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## Montana2Spain (May 20, 2016)

kalohi said:


> I've been here for 30 years and things have changed a lot since I moved over! I came on a work visa to teach English - which wouldn't be possible any more - and then I married a Spaniard. Thanks to that I now have residency as a family member of an EU citizen (my husband).
> 
> As for your situation, the investor visa is the one visa of the three that I listed that would allow you to work in Spain. To get it you have to invest a minimum of 500,000€ in property in Spain before you apply for the visa at a Spanish consulate in the United States. If you google "Spanish golden visa" you'll find more information than for "investor visa". Needless to say, if you're investing that much money internationally you'd be using lawyers and they should help you along.


Yes... I'm sure we'll have lawyers and accountants. Gestor I think is what it's called or at least that is the advisor. Anyway what I was getting confused with was exactly how it would be for me to apply for the Visa if I need a visa to find a property. The logistics are that we need to sell our house here to obtain the funds needed for the Investor Visa. Talked to the consulate in San Francisco today. And it is as I expected. Made to be the biggest pain in the booty but that can be just because of bureaucracy but it also weeds out those not completely serious. But basically we need to make an appointment at the SF consulate. The nearest date is in August but we can't make that appointment until June. Then, even though we are married we each need to have our own appointment. No sharing Appointments. This will get us the application for the extended visa. After the application is submitted we then have to wait 3 to 4 months to be approved at which time we will have to go back to San Francisco to obtain the visas in person. So that is two trips to San Francisco for each of us just to get the visa that will allow us to extend the stay past the 90 days so we have time to rent and do the right thing when buying and be sure we get what we want where we want. We'd prefer not to sell our house and then rent in the US just waiting on the visa so it's going to take some coordination and some faith in the time lines given. 

This all makes taking a drivers test seem like a cake walk. You'd think they'd want to make it easy as possible for us to drop a half million into the economy but that as they say... is how it goes. There will be many many things like this to wade through but I look at it as an adventure. Information is the key.


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## Montana2Spain (May 20, 2016)

To avoid that hefty expense and unknown time schedule with having to go to our nearest consulate to do the visa process I'm wondering if there is anyone out there that has obtained an investor visa while in country. I'm still not clear on this. If we were to come on a 90 day visa but have everything prepared and are able to pick and close on a property within the first 30 to 60 days (is closing fast realistic in Spain?) Can we then apply for the investor visa in country and obtain it in the 2 - 4 weeks they claim it takes? This would save us an inordinate amount of cash with the trade off of having to pick a property quickly once there. 

Is there anyone that knows the answer to this? I will find out eventually but thought this would be the easiest route.


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## Montana2Spain (May 20, 2016)

kalohi said:


> :welcome:
> 
> It sounds like you still need to do a lot of research because you're missing some basic information. I'm not an expert at this, but let's see if I can set you on the right track.
> 
> ...


Hi Kalohi,

I went through those blogs. None of them dealt with the Investor Visa. They all did the 1 year non-lucrative Visa so I'm still in search of those that have obtained an Investor Visa. Thanks though. Some good information otherwise!

Tom


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Montana2Spain said:


> Yes... I'm sure we'll have lawyers and accountants. Gestor I think is what it's called or at least that is the advisor. Anyway what I was getting confused with was exactly how it would be for me to apply for the Visa if I need a visa to find a property. The logistics are that we need to sell our house here to obtain the funds needed for the Investor Visa. Talked to the consulate in San Francisco today. And it is as I expected. Made to be the biggest pain in the booty but that can be just because of bureaucracy but it also weeds out those not completely serious. But basically we need to make an appointment at the SF consulate. The nearest date is in August but we can't make that appointment until June. Then, even though we are married we each need to have our own appointment. No sharing Appointments. This will get us the application for the extended visa. After the application is submitted we then have to wait 3 to 4 months to be approved at which time we will have to go back to San Francisco to obtain the visas in person. So that is two trips to San Francisco for each of us just to get the visa that will allow us to extend the stay past the 90 days so we have time to rent and do the right thing when buying and be sure we get what we want where we want. We'd prefer not to sell our house and then rent in the US just waiting on the visa so it's going to take some coordination and some faith in the time lines given.
> 
> This all makes taking a drivers test seem like a cake walk. You'd think they'd want to make it easy as possible for us to drop a half million into the economy but that as they say... is how it goes. There will be many many things like this to wade through but I look at it as an adventure. Information is the key.


You cannot change visa status whilst in Spain - any visa has to be applied for from your country of usual residence


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## Montana2Spain (May 20, 2016)

xabiachica said:


> You cannot change visa status whilst in Spain - any visa has to be applied for from your country of usual residence


Thanks Xabiachica!


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

A quick search led me to this website, which is from a real estate agency selling their services to potential Golden Visa applicants, but which also spells out the rules and policies behind the visa. It might be of interest.

I don't think there are any regular posters on this forum who have come to Spain on an investor visa. It's a relatively new visa and I have read that it hasn't been very popular. 

What you can find on this forum are words of wisdom about opening a B&B in Spain, or in fact about opening any kind of business in Spain. I would read very carefully and think very hard before socking serious money into a business here. 

There's a reason that Spain has been in an economic crisis worse than the Depression for 8 years now and hasn't been able to pull out of it. Just saying.


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## Montana2Spain (May 20, 2016)

kalohi said:


> A quick search led me to this website, which is from a real estate agency selling their services to potential Golden Visa applicants, but which also spells out the rules and policies behind the visa. It might be of interest.
> 
> I don't think there are any regular posters on this forum who have come to Spain on an investor visa. It's a relatively new visa and I have read that it hasn't been very popular.
> 
> ...


Thank Kalohi. 

We are aware but thanks for the warning. It's the prices of real estate that attract us there. It was the same way here in the States, we just recovered faster which was good for us(almost too fast actually. We don't learn from our mistakes over here very well) We have our reasons for moving to Spain and it isn't about finding a cash cow business. We still have income from the States that will flow so the B&B is more for us to do something that will not only keep us engaged as not ready to retire yet but would also allow us to maybe employ a local or two in the process. I've been a hotelier all my life. So it just works for me. It's not about making money. It's about living a better life. 

I have seen that sight as well as many others just like it. And each one always seems to say a few things differently. Like #9 and #10. Depending on which site you go to some say there is no requirement of stays and others give required stays. Doesn't pertain to us but it just adds to confusion. #10 says 5 years while other sites it says it's good for 1 year and then needs to renewed for 2 years until you hit 5 years and then goes permanent until 10 years. And #15 is where we get all confused because according to that website it literally says you can obtain a visa immediately after signing but that is not clear because actually you can't. After purchasing, according to what I'm understanding, we have to be back in the US and go to the Spanish consulate in the US to apply and achieve the visa. 

So you understand my frustration in just doing research. It seems to be either vague or outright different depending on where you go to read it. Perhaps the real estates companies operate with some special privileges? I think the best thing for us to do now is obtain a lawyer in Spain to help us navigate the confusion. We can't really put the house here on the market until we have a clear path to the move. If we have to purchase a property but then come back to the US to apply and then wait for the Visa that could then mean renting a place in the US while we wait. All costs and schedules that need to be considered. First we have to understand the process for obtaining the visa before we can move forward with how we actually are going to coordinate this. And that seems to be the challenge at the moment with conflicting information on the web.

Bummed to hear that there would be few to nobody on this forum with experience in this type of Visa but just means we'll have to find other ways of figuring it out. All the information about the various business challenges and triumphs are always interesting. 

Thanks again for helping me navigate!


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Why don't you go to the horse's mouth and contact the Spanish consulate you'll be dealing with in the States? Also check their website. Each consulate works a little differently so it's sometimes hard to generalize.


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## Montana2Spain (May 20, 2016)

kalohi said:


> Why don't you go to the horse's mouth and contact the Spanish consulate you'll be dealing with in the States? Also check their website. Each consulate works a little differently so it's sometimes hard to generalize.


Did have a conversation with the consulate in San Francisco, which isn't near us, today. We got some answers which then lead to more questions so we will be contacting them again for sure but I have been warned that the US consulates don't always know the answers to the questions so it's better to deal with someone who is actually in Spain? That's the gist I get anyway.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Montana2Spain said:


> Did have a conversation with the consulate in San Francisco, which isn't near us, today. We got some answers which then lead to more questions so we will be contacting them again for sure but I have been warned that the US consulates don't always know the answers to the questions so it's better to deal with someone who is actually in Spain? That's the gist I get anyway.


Whichever consulate you have to deal with will be the one to issue your visa (or not) - so it makes sense to find out what that consulate requires - nowhere else.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

Montana2Spain said:


> ...First we have to understand the process for obtaining the visa before we can move forward with how we actually are going to coordinate this. And that seems to be the challenge at the moment with conflicting information on the web....


The only information on the web you should really be paying attention to is the information found on the Spanish Consulate website where you'll be applying for the visa. 

The Spanish Consulate in San Francisco website gives clear information about what the visa application process is, with approximate timing. Clicking on the pdf link for 'Residence for Real Estate', I find this information:

This visa allows you to reside in Spain if you have invested in real estate in the country a minimum amount of 500.000 Euros. The process may take between 2 to 4 weeks from the day all documents are presented. Once your visa is authorized, we will contact you by email or mail, and you (and all your family members applying for a visa) will have to come in person to this Consulate General within a month with your passport and an itinerary of flight to Spain to obtain the visa. ... Apply at this Consulate, if your permanent address is in: Alaska, Northern California, Hawaii, Idaho, Guam, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, Washington and Wyoming. 

They also list all the documents you need to turn in with your visa application. 

1. National visa application form: The application forms must be signed and filled out in print.
2. Passport: Valid passport for a minimum of 1 year, with at least one blank page to affix the visa.
3. Two passport size photos: (White Background, 2x2in) One per application form.
4. Certification of Ownership and Outstanding Liens form the Land Registry of the property or properties (Certificación con la información continuada de dominio y carga del Registro de la Propiedad). Such certificate must have been issued within 90 days prior to the visa application.
5. Proof of real state purchase worth 500.000 Euros free from any liens or mortgages. The part of the investments that exceeds the required amount may be subject to any liens or mortgages.
6. Proof of enough periodic income (investments, annuities, sabbaticals and any other source of income) for a minimum income of 25,560 Euros annually plus 6,390 Euros per each additional family member. All documentation must be certified translated into Spanish.
7. Police Criminal Record clearance must be verified by fingerprints. It cannot be older than 3 months from the application date with a certified translation into Spanish. The certificate must be issue from either:
a) State Department of Justice. Original clearance letter form signed (from the States where you have lived during the past 5 years). It must be legalized with the Apostille of the Hague Convention from the corresponding Secretary of the State.
b) FBI Records, issued by the US Department of Justice – F.B.I. It must be legalized with the Apostille of the Hague Convention from the US Department of State in Washington DC. You must also get a police record from the countries where you have lived during the past 5 years.
8. Proof of having international medical insurance while in Spain, with a certified translation into Spanish. 

What stands out to me is that nowhere does it say that you are applying for the right to work in Spain. I would certainly want to clear up that point before moving forward with this.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

kalohi said:


> The only information on the web you should really be paying attention to is the information found on the Spanish Consulate website where you'll be applying for the visa.
> 
> The Spanish Consulate in San Francisco website gives clear information about what the visa application process is, with approximate timing. Clicking on the pdf link for 'Residence for Real Estate', I find this information:
> 
> ...


There are two kinds of Golden Visa - one is property ownership & has no right to work - the other is _Visado de Residencia para Emprendedores y Actividad Empresarial (REM)._ & does, since you can run the company which you start/buy

http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consulados/CIUDADDELCABO/es/InformacionParaExtranjeros/Paginas/Visados-Ley-de-Emprendedores.aspx


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> There are two kinds of Golden Visa - one is property ownership & has no right to work - the other is Entrepreneur & does.


Info from SF Consulate Website re Entrepreneur Visa:

This visa allows you to reside in Spain if you engaging entrepreneur activities in the country a minimum of 1 year. The process may take between 2 to 4 weeks from the day all documents are presented. Once your visa is authorized, we will contact you by email or mail, and you (and all your family members applying for a visa) will have to come in person to this Consulate General within a month with your passport and an itinerary of flight to Spain to obtain the visa. ...

What to submit:

1. National visa application form: The application forms must be signed and filled out in print.
2. Passport: Valid passport for a minimum of 1 year, with at least one blank page to affix the visa.
3. Two passport size photos: (White Background, 2x2in) One per application form.
4. Approval certification from the Economic and Commercial Office of Spain in Los Angeles, stating that the enterprise project meets general interest or special economic interest to Spain. Please contact the Economic and Commercial Office in Los Angeles for further information at: (310) 277 5125 or
Location and contact
5. Proof of enough periodic income (investments, annuities, sabbaticals and any other source of income) for a minimum income of 25,560 Euros annually plus 6,390 Euros per each additional family member. All documentation must be certified translated into Spanish.
6. Police Criminal Record clearance must be verified by fingerprints. It cannot be older than 3 months from the application date with a certified translation into Spanish. The certificate must be issue from either:
a) State Department of Justice. Original clearance letter form signed (from the States where you have lived during the past 5 years). It must be legalized with the Apostille of the Hague Convention from the corresponding Secretary of the State.
b) FBI Records, issued by the US Department of Justice – F.B.I. It must be legalized with the Apostille of the Hague Convention from the US Department of State in Washington DC. You must also get a police record from the countries where you have lived during the past 5 years.
7. Proof of having international medical insurance while in Spain, with a certified translation into Spanish.

LINK


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## Montana2Spain (May 20, 2016)

kalohi said:


> Info from SF Consulate Website re Entrepreneur Visa:
> 
> This visa allows you to reside in Spain if you engaging entrepreneur activities in the country a minimum of 1 year. The process may take between 2 to 4 weeks from the day all documents are presented. Once your visa is authorized, we will contact you by email or mail, and you (and all your family members applying for a visa) will have to come in person to this Consulate General within a month with your passport and an itinerary of flight to Spain to obtain the visa. ...
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input everyone. I have had all of this information from the consulate and conversations with them. I have an understanding of the Visa, what I need to get it and what I can do with it. I think I was just hoping I could find other US expats who have attained this type of Visa and could share some of the pitfalls to avoid. It's not the visa I'm confused with, its the information on timing that has always been something of a grey area. Being 18 hour drive from my consulate and the fact the sale of our house is what allows us the funds to do this there is a lot to consider if the consulate requires us (each individual) to be there in person to apply for the visa and then again to receive it all the while several flights to Spain, no house anymore and two dogs. It's a logistical feat. And that is what we are trying to minimize. Would rather spend the money in Spain where it is most needed rather than pay US based airlines and lodging rentals unnecessarily. I think the title of this story in the end will be "The hardest way to spend 3/4 of a million... EVER" HA! Just was hoping there was someone with experience with this visa. 

But it is all good and appreciate all the comments and info(even the not so positive ones). It all goes in... swims around and eventually we'll come out the other side one way or the other. 

Live well everyone.


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