# Now you've given Hacienda all your details, here's how it's going to be used



## expatmat (Feb 12, 2013)

Be prepared

Wealth tax to pay for EU bail-outs - Telegraph


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

Not exactly a suprise and (regardless of the source) I would say that this has a strong liklihood of becoming a reality.....

Not too sure what to think of the Median wealth figures though, and since when did being a property owner make you richer?

I've owned my property for seven years and have lost more money in its value over that time than a German would have spent on rent!

The result is an unpleasant semi-twisted logic (those that can pay shall pay....) but the argument used to justfy it are not convincing.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Regarding property, it's hard as heck for Barcenas et al. to hide their mansions or whatever (surely expensive) homes they have in Swiss accounts!


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## expatmat (Feb 12, 2013)

Pleaser don't feed the tax evasion troll


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

I'm not sure who you are accusing of being a tax evasion troll, Matt.


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## Sirtravelot (Jul 20, 2011)

This whole "Southern Europeans are richer than Germans" spiel is purely propaganda.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

The day I take as gospel what I read in the Telegraph I'll seek psychiatric help.

The answer to all this is simple: if you as an immigrant in Spain really feel that your assets are in danger of being sequestrated by an overreaching almighty EU....either don't come to live here or liquidate your Spanish assets and go home. No-one forced you to come, no-one will stop you leaving.

All of the rumour and speculation surrounding this new measure is just that....rumour and speculation.


We shall this evening at 6pm visit our tax specialist armed with all the required documents to report as required. All our lives, both personally and professionally, we have paid all due taxes. We did so when we owned businesses.

Like most immigrants, we shall, having done what is required, continue with our happy lives in Spain.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

expatmat said:


> Be prepared
> 
> Wealth tax to pay for EU bail-outs - Telegraph


Your thread title: *how it's GOING to be used..*

Yet a *close* reading of the Telegraph piece reveals that the inspiration of this panic-mongering is a *suggestion* by an advisor to Merkel. Words like *suggestion, might,* *could and would* are used throughout the piece.

I'm beginning to think some immigrants enjoy a little masochism to spice up their lives..

When discussing such proposals, one can never dismiss any outcome. But a little calm reflection is surely in order. Anyone would think the average British immigrant in Spain is a weaalthy individual with £millions at stake. The reality is far from that.


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## expatmat (Feb 12, 2013)

Be prepared, that's all it says.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

expatmat said:


> Be prepared, that's all it says.


Well, we should all be prepared for the contingencies life unexpectedly throws at us. But you selected a piece from a notoriously anti-EU anti-German newspaper which currently serves as the mouthpiece for the anti-EU anti-German fringe of the Conservative Party and told us that we would be faced with a wealth tax...and *'this is how it's going to be used'*. Your words.

In fact, the piece says very little of substance. It's speculation founded on prejudice.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

I spoke to two old friends just today, both reasonably wealthy, both having had businesses in Spain, now retired who are both rescinding their Spanish resident status and leaving Spain _specifically because of this ruling on assets - no other reason_. 

They both say they don't want to go but won't take the risk with their retirement investments. Instead they will return to their home countries and spend their money there. Spain loses.


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## expatmat (Feb 12, 2013)

jimenato said:


> I spoke to two old friends just today, both reasonably wealthy, both having had businesses in Spain, now retired who are both rescinding their Spanish resident status and leaving Spain _specifically because of this ruling on assets - no other reason_.
> 
> They both say they don't want to go but won't take the risk with their retirement investments. Instead they will return to their home countries and spend their money there. Spain loses.


That's a real shame and a decision, I'm sure, not taken lightly


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## Overandout (Nov 10, 2012)

I have to admit that although it's not the primary reason for my departure from Spain, I'm quite relieved to not be a tax resident in Europe for the next few years for these type of considerations.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> I spoke to two old friends just today, both reasonably wealthy, both having had businesses in Spain, now retired who are both rescinding their Spanish resident status and leaving Spain _specifically because of this ruling on assets - no other reason_.
> 
> They both say they don't want to go but won't take the risk with their retirement investments. Instead they will return to their home countries and spend their money there. Spain loses.


They've made their choice.

We've made ours, as have friends who I would consider to be wealthy, not comfortably off. We are staying.

We're not multi-millionaires but we too have considerable assets earned from UK businesses. We have done our research, listened to people whose experience, knowledge and judgment we respect. These people are all very long-term residents, some of them well-established in business in Spain for over thirty years. People of real substance but who are not swayed by rumour, preferring to base their actions on hard fact and experience.

I would actually urge anyone seriously worried by this new requirement to leave Spain as you will obviously not be able to enjoy a settled tranquil life here with these concerns preoccupying you. The same advice to those contemplating immigration: don't commit yourself if you feel you are taking a risk, however slight that may be.

Enough of us will stay to ensure that any contributions from the immigrant community,if withdrawn, won't bring the economy to its knees. Somehow I don't think that the possible departure of a few immigrants will cause Spain to lose much sleep.

Most of us are here for the duration, whatever life may bring. In a year's time we shall be enjoying warm December sunshine while Britain freezes. Maybe we'll live to regret it...but I have a feeling we won't.

If my partner and I had not taken calculated risk whilst in business in the UK we would not be leading the happy, privileged life Spain has given us.


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## JaneyO (Sep 24, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> The day I take as gospel what I read in the Telegraph I'll seek psychiatric help.
> 
> The answer to all this is simple: if you as an immigrant in Spain really feel that your assets are in danger of being sequestrated by an overreaching almighty EU....either don't come to live here or liquidate your Spanish assets and go home. No-one forced you to come, no-one will stop you leaving.
> 
> ...


 HELP! Like you I am trying to do this right but I'm having a real struggle trying to get the information they want correct. I'm told for banks they want the 'tax bank identification as issued by the tax authority' - my FA said it was in the small print on statements etc but I can only find a registration number alongside addresses and a FSA registration number. Is it the registration number, I thought this was a companies house number not a tax number and the FSA is something else entirely. How do I find the tax registration numbers for BArclays lloyds TSB Santander Halifax etc? Also, they want the bank 'name, address, postal code' is this the info for your branch or for the company as a whole? If you've managed to do yours and can help me I would be eternally grateful!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

JaneyO said:


> HELP! Like you I am trying to do this right but I'm having a real struggle trying to get the information they want correct. I'm told for banks they want the 'tax bank identification as issued by the tax authority' - my FA said it was in the small print on statements etc but I can only find a registration number alongside addresses and a FSA registration number. Is it the registration number, I thought this was a companies house number not a tax number and the FSA is something else entirely. How do I find the tax registration numbers for BArclays lloyds TSB Santander Halifax etc? Also, they want the bank 'name, address, postal code' is this the info for your branch or for the company as a whole? If you've managed to do yours and can help me I would be eternally grateful!


You will have to go directly to the source for that kind of information, if you can't separate it from the mass of detail you have at your disposal. Your accountant or tax lawyer or your fund manager should help you get this together. When in doubt, we always supply alternative information on the supposition that one must be correct!

From what I have heard, how efficiently this is done depends entirely on the skill and expertise of the professional you deal with in Spain.

Our dog rehoming charity is currently in the process of applying for various licences for a new venture. We have also made application for use of our local Exhibition Hall for our next month's Annual Dog Show. You simply would not believe how this process, apparently so simple according to the application forms, has been delayed, obfuscated and complicated because of the sheer ineptitude of the officials dealing with it who seem unable or unwilling to follow their own guidelines. My partner has a Soc. Seg. number but after two years' waiting and two applications has yet to receive her tarjeta.

So we are really not that concerned as to whether what we have done is correct to the last detail. We've done what we think is required.

After four years plus and considerable experience of dealing with officialdom we are beginning to learn how this part of Spain works.

We have also learnt the wisdom, in most cases, of 'Nada pasa'. That adds immensely to our enjoyment of life here .

A large number of people, most with decades of experience of business in Spain, have said they are doing 'nothing'.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Legal bases - European commission

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2003:157:0038:0048:en:PDF

Rules applicable - European commission



> All Member States are ultimately expected to automatically exchange information on interest payments by paying agents established in their territories to individuals resident in other Member States. All Member States, except Belgium, Luxembourg and Austria, immediately introduced such a system of information reporting.


If you haven't been evading up to now the additional extra info they'll have is pretty close to zero. Or at least the info they could get if they wanted.

The point of requiring people to report is to catch those hiding money in tax havens. If you don't report and are caught they'll charge you with evasion.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> You will have to go directly to the source for that kind of information, if you can't separate it from the mass of detail you have at your disposal. Your accountant or tax lawyer or your fund manager should help you get this together. When in doubt, we always supply alternative information on the supposition that one must be correct!
> 
> From what I have heard, how efficiently this is done depends entirely on the skill and expertise of the professional you deal with in Spain.
> 
> ...


I suspect that most expats don't even know they are supposed to declare anything, most of the rest don't want to know and just about all of them are doing precisely nothing.


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## expatmat (Feb 12, 2013)

Tax evasion is illegal. Always was. The decree hasn't changed that.


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## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

You don't need to give the bank's address. The required fields are marked with a red asterisk. I've submitted the form on the principle that I will tell them as little as they will let me. There is a button called verificar or validar that lets you test if the form is ready to be sent or requires more info. For the NIF equivalent I have just put any clearly displayed reference number at the bottom of the bank's website homepage. I assume that they would know where to find Barclays etc. if they really wanted to.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Turtles said:


> You don't need to give the bank's address. The required fields are marked with a red asterisk. I've submitted the form on the principle that I will tell them as little as they will let me. There is a button called verificar or validar that lets you test if the form is ready to be sent or requires more info. For the NIF equivalent I have just put any clearly displayed reference number at the bottom of the bank's website homepage. I assume that they would know where to find Barclays etc. if they really wanted to.


As explained earlier, the tax number that they are looking for is either their company registration number or, if they operate in Spain (like many do), then their NIF. 

I found that I did have to give the address of the financial institutions (not just a bank). Banks are perhaps the easiest but what about the more obscure companies? 

Hacienda aren't going to spend time looking for the details, they will just fine you for not providing it!


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## Turtles (Jan 9, 2011)

If you dig into Hacienda's faq it will tell you which fields are compulsory.


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## JaneyO (Sep 24, 2012)

snikpoh said:


> As explained earlier, the tax number that they are looking for is either their company registration number or, if they operate in Spain (like many do), then their NIF.
> 
> I found that I did have to give the address of the financial institutions (not just a bank). Banks are perhaps the easiest but what about the more obscure companies?
> 
> Hacienda aren't going to spend time looking for the details, they will just fine you for not providing it!


Exactly. When you gave the address of the financial institutions did you give the registered address as shown alongside the registration number or in the case of banks the branch address?
I've just asked Lloyds and they've never heard of a tax id number so guess it must be the company registration no they need.


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## CapnBilly (Jun 7, 2011)

JaneyO said:


> Exactly. When you gave the address of the financial institutions did you give the registered address as shown alongside the registration number or in the case of banks the branch address?
> I've just asked Lloyds and they've never heard of a tax id number so guess it must be the company registration no they need.


I have either used the company registration number, or in the case of a building society the FSA registration number. I have used the address on my statements.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> As explained earlier, the tax number that they are looking for is either their company registration number or, if they operate in Spain (like many do), then their NIF.
> 
> I found that I did have to give the address of the financial institutions (not just a bank). Banks are perhaps the easiest but what about the more obscure companies?
> 
> Hacienda aren't going to spend time looking for the details, they will just fine you for not providing it!


NIF _Número de Identificación Fiscal_
or 
CIF _Código de identificación fiscal _??

On my bills companies use their CIF


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

expatmat said:


> Tax evasion is illegal. Always was. The decree hasn't changed that.


Who said it had?
We all know tax evasion is illegal...


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> Who said it had?
> We all know tax evasion is illegal...


And most people I have spoken to who have decided to change their tax base haven't necessarily been evading tax either. Worry about this decree does not mean worry about past tax evasion, its about possible future and yet unknown taxes from a country in dire straits


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> And most people I have spoken to who have decided to change their tax base haven't necessarily been evading tax either. Worry about this decree does not mean worry about past tax evasion, its about possible future and yet unknown taxes from a country in dire straits


Ah...the possibilities..the 'unknown unknowns'...

I'm wondering how breaches of this requirement could be enforced...I really would like to see a *feasible *account. Details of possible procedures..that kind of thing.

The Cyprus levy was easy....it applied to deposits held in banks in Cyprus. Branches of Cypriot banks outside Cyprus were not affected. Obtaining fines or levies of any kind from assets held in the UK, Germany, Russia and offshore by non-Spanish citizens throws up a host of complex problems. Someone mentioned that the European Payment Order procedure could be invoked....highly unlikely. It is intended for relatively smaller debt recovery.

I suppose that any assets held in Spanish banks could be embargoed, in the unlikely event a levy were to be applied. Simple remedy: open an offshore account and keep the minimum funds in Spain. I do that anyway for convenience. 

So..assuming I had not complied with the requirement: my assets are held offshore, I have a few 000 euros in my Spanish account...what then? Prison???
The likelihood of the UK, Germany or Russia allowing Spanish Hacienda to seize UK, German or Russian-based assets is frankly laughable.
As is the very idea of Hacienda getting organised sufficiently to be able even to think about doing it..


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

That wasnt my point though. When we decided to do what we are doing I expected two responses from the masses.

One: You must be a tax dodger to be worried about it and
Two: Well, you're going back to the UK so you must have failed in your life here

Neither are actually true, yet time and time again I see the tax dodger line being levelled at people.

The simple truth is that for some times change, and when you add up the + and - side of things you make decisions. Not tax dodging, speaking personally my conscience is clear


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> NIF _Número de Identificación Fiscal_
> or
> CIF _Código de identificación fiscal _??
> 
> On my bills companies use their CIF


How do investment companies send you a bill? Remember, we are talking about declaring assets outside of UK so what are they doing billing you?

I was referring to one company (SEB) who is a life insurance company and offer products in Spain. For this reason they have a NIF number. Interestingly, as you point out, I would expect it to be a CIF but it's not. When they changed their name from Irish Life (they were taken over), they had to send in a form to hacienda who quoted a NIF. (curious?)


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> How do investment companies send you a bill? Remember, we are talking about declaring assets outside of UK so what are they doing billing you?
> 
> I was referring to one company (SEB) who is a life insurance company and offer products in Spain. For this reason they have a NIF number. Interestingly, as you point out, I would expect it to be a CIF but it's not. When they changed their name from Irish Life (they were taken over), they had to send in a form to hacienda who quoted a NIF. (curious?)


I just looked it up - a CIF is for an 'incorporated' company





whatever that is.........


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## cerrillo (Nov 10, 2012)

can anyone answer my question, i always do my tax return and declare any interest received on my savings account in the UK. this form i believe requires you to put the date of opening the account. My problem is that within the same bank I have just switched from one account to another to whichever is paying the most interest at the time. This saving account was opened in 2009 the money being transferred in from another account. My problem is if I put this account opening date at 2009 if they cross check it with my Renta it will look as though I had received or earnt this money in 2009 and not declared, What do i do - any constructive advice would be appreciated.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

snikpoh said:


> How do investment companies send you a bill? Remember, we are talking about declaring assets outside of UK so what are they doing billing you?
> 
> I was referring to one company (SEB) who is a life insurance company and offer products in Spain. For this reason they have a NIF number. Interestingly, as you point out, I would expect it to be a CIF but it's not. When they changed their name from Irish Life (they were taken over), they had to send in a form to hacienda who quoted a NIF. (curious?)


I admit it. I haven't read the thread. But...
Investment companies don't bill me.
I was referring to ME billing companies, Spanish companies, or companies who do business in Spain. In my innocence I thought that these companies had to have a CIF. It seems not! But all the companies I deal with do in fact have a CIF, but it's probably not very important.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

cerrillo said:


> can anyone answer my question, i always do my tax return and declare any interest received on my savings account in the UK. this form i believe requires you to put the date of opening the account. My problem is that within the same bank I have just switched from one account to another to whichever is paying the most interest at the time. This saving account was opened in 2009 the money being transferred in from another account. My problem is if I put this account opening date at 2009 if they cross check it with my Renta it will look as though I had received or earnt this money in 2009 and not declared, What do i do - any constructive advice would be appreciated.


Go to your hacienda office and ask them


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Stravinsky said:


> That wasnt my point though. When we decided to do what we are doing I expected two responses from the masses.
> 
> One: You must be a tax dodger to be worried about it and
> Two: Well, you're going back to the UK so you must have failed in your life here
> ...


Yes, I respect your decision.You've investigated and thought about it and reached a conclusion, we've done the same and reached a different conclusion. Fact is, who knows which of our predictions will become reality, yours or mine.... I suspect our 'wealth' will remain untouched but who knows? Who knows anything these days?

And you're right....tax evasion doesn't enter into this as anyone who is tax resident in Spain should have already declared income from assets. But some people just don't understand these things.

A year or so ago some [email protected] accused me of avoiding tax because I have offshore bank accounts. Anyone with any knowledge of financial matters will know that agreements with relevant tax authorities apply to offshore banks in most jurisdictions. My and Sandra's tax due on income offshore is collected by our offshore bank. I think that's the only time I've been annoyed by a post. 

It does seem though that a lot of immigrants of all nationalitiers try to stay below the radar to avoid and evafe tax due. I know of a very wealthy individual who is 100% resident in Spain but not tax resident and who has inherited a £million property on which tax is due......

Interesting to note that we are encouraged to report benefit cheats in Spain but not tax dodgers....


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