# Remote work on a long stay visitor visa



## CauceDeLuz

Hi everyone, 

I have been issued a long stay visitor visa valid for one year starting next month. I am trying to gauge the risk of working remotely (part time) for a US company at the moment. I am aware that there's no 'legitimate' way of going about this with the visa I have been issued. I have no intent on renewing my residence permit at the end of my stay. In fact, its not even a possibility given that I have "Long Sejour *Temporaire*" visa. I plan to return to the USA and resume my life after this trip, which I expect to be around ~8 months (perhaps the full year if things are going great). 

Given this, my understanding is that its atypical for me to have to file a tax declaration in France, is that correct? What about the IRS, as long as I'm paying taxes on all earned income does it matter if I'm honest with them about having lived in France for ~8 months in 2023? Are there other factors I should consider? Presumably in the case that I attempt this, I would have to go from being an employee at my company to an independent contract worker (I think), but I'm not even sure if that's the case. 

Ultimately I have the finances to be in France without having to work - so if all of this is too risky/sketchy then I simply wont work while I'm there. The main reason I even want to work in the first place, aside from having more income, is that my partner (a French citizen) will be working full time for the duration of my stay. I just figure things will go way more smoothly if I have something to do while their at work. I'd imagine not working would compel me to want to go home sooner, and I don't want that for us. 

Thanks for reading, any insight is really appreciated.


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## Bevdeforges

OK - to be perfectly honest about it, you should have no problems working remotely like you describe - as long as you are planning on returning to the US at the end of your visa/titre de séjour. The other thing is that you won't be "overseas" long enough to qualify for the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion under either of the two conditions (physical presence or bona fide residence) so your US tax status isn't going to change (i.e. you'll be fully taxable for US purposes).


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## CauceDeLuz

Bevdeforges said:


> OK - to be perfectly honest about it, you should have no problems working remotely like you describe - as long as you are planning on returning to the US at the end of your visa/titre de séjour. The other thing is that you won't be "overseas" long enough to qualify for the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion under either of the two conditions (physical presence or bona fide residence) so your US tax status isn't going to change (i.e. you'll be fully taxable for US purposes).


Hi Bev, 

Do you know at which point what you call "physical presence" starts to matter? Is it the fact that my time there is split into two fiscal years that makes it not matter? Also, this is probably getting too into the weeds but does it matter if I'm a part time employee or contractor? I don't want to burden my employer with the risk of me being over, if that makes sense. 

Prior to posting this thread yesterday I spent hours scouring these forums for this kind of information. I saw your name pop up a lot, so I just wanted to show some appreciation and say thanks. Much respect for what you do for this community Bev, its really impressive.


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## Bevdeforges

To qualify for the physical presence test (for FEIE) you must be physically present outside the US for a period of 12 consecutive months - which may overlap two calendar years. There is a 35 day "allowance" for "visits" back to the US, though technically you are taxable for any days present in the US when you are doing work for which you are paid. But if you won't be away from the US for a full 12 months, you don't qualify in any event. Part-time or contractor makes no difference. As long as you aren't going to be in France "permanently" you can generally claim that you are not transferring your primary residence and they won't bother you about it. Your US employer won't have any particular concerns and can simply keep you on the US payroll. Mind you, this isn't exactly "official" but in practice it should work just fine.


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## ammonite123

This is an interesting issue which is increasingly coming up. In recent months, consulates in Washington and London have been receiving people applying for auto-entrepreneur visa and advising them to apply for a visiteur visa instead, as they insist remote work in France is perfectly acceptable as long as the company they work for has no physical presence in France and no dealings with France at all. A couple who were recently told this, after applying for an auto-entrepreneur visa, said they wanted to make sure they were doing everything correctly as they eventually wanted long-term residency. The person dealing with the visa checked with their boss, who said this was correct. The couple then received a phone call from the consulate the next day again confirming that this kind of remote work is acceptable on a visiteur visa. I think the reasoning behind it is that France has no jurisdiction over foreign companies, and the "worker" doesn't fall under the code du travail because France defines remote working as if the employer is working from the office - in this case, the UK. This is not an isolated incident, either. I suppose the visiteur visa holder then declares their foreign income (taxed in the UK in this case) on a French tax return, declares themselves "inactif" in France and applies for a CDS renewal at the end of the year with that as proof of funds.

Another person who had reached the end of their first year on a visiteur visa while working remotely wanted to change to a working visa. They contacted their prefecture about whether this was possible and were told by the prefecture that they were already on the correct visa! 

It's certainly an interesting development.


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## Bevdeforges

As the old saying goes, "your mileage may vary." I know I was told one thing by the French consulate in Stuttgart and found that the prefecture here in Essonne understood the relevant regulations very differently. Communication between the various government agencies isn't always what it should be. You plays the game and you takes your chances, I guess.


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## ammonite123

Bevdeforges said:


> As the old saying goes, "your mileage may vary." I know I was told one thing by the French consulate in Stuttgart and found that the prefecture here in Essonne understood the relevant regulations very differently. Communication between the various government agencies isn't always what it should be. You plays the game and you takes your chances, I guess.


Absolutely. The problem is, people are going into this trying to do the right thing - but are being actively dissuaded from what they believe to be the right course into something which could land them in hot water later on. Presumably, as long as their foreign income is declared correctly in France and they declare themselves inactive, they might be ok. But as I say, this isn't people trying to fly under the radar or get away with something - officals and consular staff are instructing them to do this. It's odd that different agencies of state have vastly differing approaches to what is considered right.


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## Bevdeforges

ammonite123 said:


> It's odd that different agencies of state have vastly differing approaches to what is considered right.


Not really, if you know France. I had my problems a good 25 years ago in that regard. The only thing that is different nowadays is that you have the Internet and in some ways, France is actually pretty good at putting this kind of information online. The problem is that too often, the prefecture or some other agency (at a different level) continues to do things "the way we've always done it."

And if you look carefully online, you'll probably find that this particular issue isn't treated in a particularly clear and unambiguous manner, leaving things to the "discretion" of the local authorities. And that's where the "fun" starts. It has been like this a long time here in France.


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## ammonite123

Bevdeforges said:


> Not really, if you know France. I had my problems a good 25 years ago in that regard. The only thing that is different nowadays is that you have the Internet and in some ways, France is actually pretty good at putting this kind of information online. The problem is that too often, the prefecture or some other agency (at a different level) continues to do things "the way we've always done it."
> 
> And if you look carefully online, you'll probably find that this particular issue isn't treated in a particularly clear and unambiguous manner, leaving things to the "discretion" of the local authorities. And that's where the "fun" starts. It has been like this a long time here in France.


Thanks for that Bev. Is this something you yourself have read/heard about? There has been a lot of anecdotal evidence cropping up recently but no one seems to have definitive answers, as you say. One problem I can definitely foresee is consulates saying it's fine, then a prefecture during the renewal process saying it isn't. I suppose my biggest question around that would be, would the prefecture directly question the actual source of the foreign-sourced income as proof of funds? I suppose they would have to? What could someone in that position do to get through the process without alarm bells going off?


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## Bevdeforges

ammonite123 said:


> One problem I can definitely foresee is consulates saying it's fine, then a prefecture during the renewal process saying it isn't. I suppose my biggest question around that would be, would the prefecture directly question the actual source of the foreign-sourced income as proof of funds? I suppose they would have to? What could someone in that position do to get through the process without alarm bells going off?


It could happen - depending on how anal the prefecture is about renewal applications. But the process of renewing a titre de séjour is normally to confirm the information you used to obtain your visa. If the visa application went through with the remote work noted as the source of funds, it very well may fly to use the same source of funds for the renewal of the titre de séjour. 

The risk of running into problems with this arrangement may very well lie a couple of years down the road. One possibility is that the Fisc might notice that you are reporting "foreign" salary income, but have no record of registration with CPAM (for state health or other insurance). (For retirees on a visiteur visa, they generally qualify for state health cover based on their pension - which must be reported on the tax declarations.) 
Or, CPAM could question your status if you try to enroll in the national health program based on your foreign salary income. (If you're working remotely, chances are you are having social insurances withheld in the employer's country - which don't do you much good here in France as far as benefits are concerned: health, unemployment, etc.) 
Or, if you decide you would like to work locally in France after a year or two of remote work, you could easily find that no employer in France will touch you as French employers cannot hire someone on the "wrong" category of residence permit (i.e. titre de séjour). In that case, the potential penalties for the employer are pretty stiff so most employers will simply not deal with anyone not in an "appropriate" category.

French law is like that in many areas. There may not be an "obvious" process for catching or penalizing those who abuse the system. But, if you don't have the right paperwork or registration or "proof" of something down the line, you'll run into all sorts of practical problems.


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## ammonite123

Bevdeforges said:


> It could happen - depending on how anal the prefecture is about renewal applications. But the process of renewing a titre de séjour is normally to confirm the information you used to obtain your visa. If the visa application went through with the remote work noted as the source of funds, it very well may fly to use the same source of funds for the renewal of the titre de séjour.


Thanks (as always) Bev. I've had similar conversations with others recently, trying to work out the actual logistics of how this could work for those "pushed" into it by consulates. The first thing was the idea that, after three months of stable residency, anyone can apply for the health system, so the person could apply for it as an "inactif" although I understand what you're saying about UK-paid pensioners accessing it in a different way. Someone who recently tried to sign up and faced problems worked out that they had actually declared themselves as "working" when for the purposes of the French system they were inactive. Do you know about how applying for the health system as an inactive person could work in practice?

The other thing I'd be interested to know more about is the renewal stage, which you mentioned briefly. I wonder if it's worth contacting different prefectures for their views on this, as I understand their perspectives can vary quite wildly.


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## Bevdeforges

ammonite123 said:


> Someone who recently tried to sign up and faced problems worked out that they had actually declared themselves as "working" when for the purposes of the French system they were inactive. Do you know about how applying for the health system as an inactive person could work in practice?


Generally speaking, if a foreigner is on a visiteur titre de séjour, they either are retired and in receipt of a pension or they have some source of "financial resources" based on investment income of some variety. Most retirees with a state pension of any sort are entitled to free CPAM cover. (A foreigner in France drawing a French pension is covered by CPAM based on their French pension.) For those with a non-pension source of income, they pay for their health cover in the national system based on a formula that considers their annual revenues (including from sources both taxable and not taxable in France - one reason why you are supposed to declare all worldwide sources of income on French tax declarations).

If you have declared yourself (where? I assume on your French tax declarations) as "working" then you are supposed to be registered with URSSAF or one of the other social insurance agencies, and thus you are enrolled in and paying into the system. If you declared to the people handling visa applications that you were "working" then you should have had something from your employer to confirm this. 


ammonite123 said:


> The other thing I'd be interested to know more about is the renewal stage, which you mentioned briefly. I wonder if it's worth contacting different prefectures for their views on this, as I understand their perspectives can vary quite wildly.


Honestly, I wouldn't. The prefectures aren't great at answering hypothetical questions like this - and as the system migrates to more and more renewal processes online, there is less room for "flexibility." Your titre de séjour is renewed at the prefecture covering the area in which you are resident - and if there is a problem with your renewal application, you have to schedule an appointment at that prefecture to sort things out.

I'm not at all sure what you're trying to accomplish here.


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## ammonite123

Sorry if there has been some confusion - I'm not trying to accomplish anything for myself at all. I'm writing about the people who have (increasingly) applied for working visas then have been advised during their visa interview that they, in fact, need a visiteur visa because their income is sourced from outside France, even when they are technically working (remotely) from France. Some of those are coming across problems in joining the health system, and I can foresee it becoming even more of a problem when they go renew their vls-ts visiteur visa after year one. There have been some lively discussions on this issue on related Facebook pages and, with both London and Washington consulates pushing this advice, I thought this would also be a good source of advice and might even receive attention from people who have been placed in this situation.


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## ChrisCran

Knowing our politicians (who advised us, a few years ago, to use OpenOffice as a firewall), French law will be updated to take telework into account when teleportation exists!


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## Bevdeforges

Speaking from bitter experience, you simply can't let the consulate officials talk you into things that may be "stretching" the rules as all this seems to be. To my knowledge there IS no "digital nomad" visa or whatever people are referring to it as these days. France has generally followed the "butt rule" which is that you are considered to be working in whatever country your butt is planted in while you're doing the work.

The problem comes in when you consider that the various authorities (tax, immigration, whoever else) have tended to look the other way in cases where a family relocates due to one member's work visa, while the spouse only got a dependent visa that did not allow him or her to work in France. As PCs and the Internet got more popular, the "trailing spouse" could maintain their employment back home by working remotely and basically everyone kind of ignored the actual rules on this, based on the notion that the "remote working" was for a limited period of time - say, a year or two, tops - and wasn't the family's main source of income.

The other thing to consider is that in recent years, France has engaged "visa agents" to process the applications and forward them on to the consulate for consideration. If people aren't dealing with the agencies (VLS for the US, TLS for the UK) then they are going to get conflicting and confusing advice.


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## ammonite123

Bevdeforges said:


> The other thing to consider is that in recent years, France has engaged "visa agents" to process the applications and forward them on to the consulate for consideration. If people aren't dealing with the agencies (VLS for the US, TLS for the UK) then they are going to get conflicting and confusing advice.


This advice is coming directly from the consulates and as in the case of the couple I mentioned before, the person at TLS processing the application spoke to their boss, who spoke to their boss... who rang the couple the next day to say the visiteur visa is what they need even thought they clearly said they intended to work in France (remotely, although with no interaction with French businesses or clients etc), stay long-term and apply for long-term residency. Don't know what to make of it really.


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## Bevdeforges

If they are staying in France more than 90 days, the advice they got on the matter is simply wrong. At some point, things can and probably will go wrong - like you mentioned above in the matter of trying to enroll in the health care system and they find out that you are working from France without being registered with URSSAF or any other agency. There could be problems when they try to open a bank account in France, or when they try to obtain a French driving license. Or there could be problems when they try to renew their residence permits. 

In my case, I had all the information from face to face contact with the consulate (there were no middle men in those days) and I did exactly as they told me to do - and I still got a nasty letter saying I had 30 days to leave the country and wound up having to spend almost two years getting the situation sorted out. Maybe there is some provision in the Brexit Withdrawal Agreement that never got any publicity, but generally speaking, if you are coming to France to work in any capacity, you need some form of work authorization and you need to be registered in the French cotisation system. Then again, your mileage may vary - but it will be interesting to see how things work out in the longer run.


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