# what are the youth in spain like?



## SG292H (Aug 1, 2015)

hi I have been doing some research into youth from different countries and I was just wondering about Spanish youth. so my question is how are the youth in Spain different to youth in the UK or USA. are Spanish youth very family orientated? what are Spanish high schools like and is there much violence? lastly would you say the majority of youth in Spain are respectful and help their elders?

thankyou for your feedback


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## tonymar (Jan 29, 2015)

Hi I personally think the youth here are respectful of their elders and are more family orientated .

Tony


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## Trubrit (Nov 24, 2010)

In my 5 years of living in this wonderful country I have never once seen drunken Spanish youths at all, and I am certainly not afraid of passing them late at night, so different to the Uk where abuse seems to be obligatory.


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## tonymar (Jan 29, 2015)

Trubrit said:


> In my 5 years of living in this wonderful country I have never once seen drunken Spanish youths at all, and I am certainly not afraid of passing them late at night, so different to the Uk where abuse seems to be obligatory.


I agree , you can get beer almost any where here even Mc donalds 

Never seen drunk youths in Mc Donalds , wonder if they sold Beer in the UK branches if the case would be the same !

Tony


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## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

I think the 'youth' in Spain are basically the 'same' as the other European country I lived in (ie. the UK which also happens to be my birth place). You get good and bad. I do think the kids here seem to drink less as a whole (but also think some are giving the Brits a damn good run for their money! I have seen that with my own eyes!). Drug culture is different here because of the different laws. Something that bothers me. Personally I would rather see a kid with a can of Strongbow than a joint. The graffiti coming to and from Malaga is some of the worst I've seen (I am guessing very 'disrespectful' youth were responsible?!). Myself and my daughter had some pretty lewd stuff said to us in an agressive manner by a gang of male 'yoofs' (Spanish) at our local bus stop! I think they got a fright when I spun around with "have a go if you think your hard enough" expression on my face (I am a Geordie!) & my very pretty blonde daughter gave them the finger! Mind you, our local 'friendly' Spanish storekeeper (with a nasty scar on his forehead!) standing with a ciggie in his hand keeping an eye out helped our bravado no end! This was a one off but we will get stuff shouted at us from cars or just the general "oooo guapa" looking us up and down. Now I am flattered being an older lady!! lol But if my petite daughter is by herself it is a little intimidating. I am sure its all harmless stuff, but never the less! So some maybe respectful to the female / elder members of their family but maybe not so much to a stranger they are passing in a car!!
& from what my kids have told me re; Spanish kids at school in my son's words "they just won't shut up!" when the teacher has told them a thousand times! & threatens the whole class with detention!
I spent many years in Asia (where my kids were brought up), where there is respect for elders, where it is safe, only the worst of the worst kids would drink alcohol, in fact there was little 'youth culture' before the age of 20 as the kids are at school literally 24/7. So to paint Spain as this sort of society is not the Spain I have experienced. 
In my opinion (& memory!) 'youth' culture is far more akin to the UK.
I have an 18 year old and a 14 year old. I have lived in Spain for just over 2 years. I also have a preference to socialise in 'younger' cafe/ bars with a mix of many nationalities (lots of Spanish).
Don't get me wrong I really like it here & the youth culture adds to a sense of normality! You need a few rebellous teens to shake things up!


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Trubrit said:


> In my 5 years of living in this wonderful country I have never once seen drunken Spanish youths at all, and I am certainly not afraid of passing them late at night, so different to the Uk where abuse seems to be obligatory.


That may be so in your area but it is very different in Andalucia and Madrid so I hear. Do they not have botellones in Toledo? I suppose it depends on different areas, as it does in the UK. There are plenty of problems around Malaga with gangs of youths as anyone will have seen on a night out.


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## Trubrit (Nov 24, 2010)

Isobella said:


> That may be so in your area but it is very different in Andalucia and Madrid so I hear. Do they not have botellones in Toledo? I suppose it depends on different areas, as it does in the UK. There are plenty of problems around Malaga with gangs of youths as anyone will have seen on a night out.


I have never seen problems here in Toledo or even in Madrid where I lived previously. Spanish youths tended to have botellones in Plaza Espana in Madrid but without the abuse, throwing up, copulating etc, great young people and a credit to their parents and to Spain itself.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

I haven't seen any of this either, although I don't see it in the UK either but I have read about it in the newspapers and there is plenty in the Spanish press too. I read Spanish news most days and there are always plenty of reports, perhaps not as many as in UK papers but then they do not go in for sensationalism like the Daily Star et al there seems to be a lot of setting fire to rubbish skips in Malaga and frequent fights in Benalmadena and Malaga port areas. About the same in Madrid plus lots of racist incidents.

If you are doing serious research it is not very reliable to ask people on a forum who go by their own perceptions.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

The youth in Spain seem to be more laid back than their counterparts in the UK. In general they are less abusive, more family orientated and less violent, but they are not without their problems and they can be “troublesome” like all young people.
There are in all probability fewer drink related problems/ crimes, but illegal drinking is a problem and the average age to start drinking is 13. A part of all young people's lives in Spain is Botellón (group drinking outside). Look at this Google search
https://www.google.es/search?client...&oe=utf-8&gfe_rd=cr&ei=R3y8VdX1Eobf8geysLCgAg


Botellón can be three of four friends sitting on a park bench/ in a car park/ in a quiet street to a masive event involving thousands (macrobotellón). There can be, but are not usually, problems of a violent nature. The main complaints are of noise, vomit and other body fluids being left and for some reason they don't seem to be able to pick up the bottles, plastic bags and cups etc after them so there can be big litter problems


Here are some photos of the day after a botellón in the gardens of one of Spain's best universities in Madrid
El d?a despu?s del ?macrobotell?n? en la Complutense - ABC.es


And this is an Erasmus student's account of the botellón phenomena
Botellón in Madrid - Spain's drinking culture | Erasmus experience Madrid


_I have to admit I didn't really see what all the fuss was about! The building was cold and quite frankly scary. I longed to be in England where people pre drink around a table in somebody’s cosy house! It reminded me of when I was about 14 and had been waiting outside Sainsbury’s in the cold for hours searching for someone to buy me an alcopop only to have the police, or worse, a community support officer confiscate it when they found you lurking around the park. So I have to admit when I was invited by one of my new Erasmus coursemates to join the Botellón here in Madrid I wasn't particularly excited but I decided I'd go along anyway_


_***_
_After a good night socialising I made my way back to my apartment for my nightly Skype and to my surprise (bearing in mind this was 2 oclock) found HUNDREDS of people only just arriving. Whilst I had previously associated botellón with much younger teens, I now witnessed men in their twenties joing the crowds. The atmosphere was completely buzzing._
_Whilst reminiscent of drinking in the park in England there was a noticeable difference in that no one ever got outrageously drunk. There were no fights or disturbances, and for this reason the police seem to leave the young crowds alone._


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

On the whole I'd say that the Spanish youth possibly look a little less menacing than te youth in England and dont tend to try to look "well 'ard". They also seem to be more communicative and fun loving. I've seen plenty of drunk Spanish lads, but somehow, they just dont seem to behave/act as aggressively as English drunk lads

Thats a generalisation tho and I guess it depends on who you see, when and where you live

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Part two

The other great problem facing/ created by youth is the school drop out rate (fracaso escolar)


España lidera el abandono escolar temprano en Europa con su mejor dato | Sociedad | EL PAÃ�S


So the school drop out rate is near a quarter of the school population! Spain has the highest youth unemployment rate in Europe and the highest school drop out rate although the drop out rate was high before the financial crisis hit.


I don't know what the youth crime rate is compared to other countries, but I'd be interested to know.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

part three


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

SG292H said:


> hi I have been doing some research into youth from different countries and I was just wondering about Spanish youth. so my question is how are the youth in Spain different to youth in the UK or USA. are Spanish youth very family orientated? what are Spanish high schools like and is there much violence? lastly would you say the majority of youth in Spain are respectful and help their elders?
> 
> thankyou for your feedback


This is a question impossible for any of us to answer and is, with respect, a rather meaningless one.

There is no such category as 'youth'. For a start, what age range do you want included? Teenagers? Twenty-somethings?
Then what about the regional differences? Gender differences? Differences of income? Single parent families? Extended families? Middle-class 'youth'? Yung people from religious backgrounds? Or from left-wing backgrounds? Rural young people? Urban young people?

Any responses you receive on this Forum will be subjective and meaningless as no one person unless they are an academic sociologist can possibly have the knowledge and experience to be able to give sensible answers other than from personal experience.

For example: I live in a middle-class area of a small village on the CdS. Would you expect me to find the same patterns of behaviour 9f I lived in inner-city Madrid or Barcelona?

So much as I might like to help, sorry, I can't.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> This is a question impossible for any of us to answer and is, with respect, a rather meaningless one.
> 
> There is no such category as 'youth'. For a start, what age range do you want included? Teenagers? Twenty-somethings?
> Then what about the regional differences? Gender differences? Differences of income? Single parent families? Extended families? Middle-class 'youth'? Yung people from religious backgrounds? Or from left-wing backgrounds? Rural young people? Urban young people?
> ...


You are right in that responses will be subjective, but not in my opinion meaningless. What you see and and live is as "meaningful" as the next persons' experience.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

I live in a barrio in a large town (not a holiday resort) in Andalucia. There is a high proportion of low income and indeed no income families here, many of them with teenage and younger children, and a fair proportion of gypsy families who get blamed for a lot of the crime committed in Spain.

In our experience the kids tend to go through a "phase" in pre-teen and early teen years when they get a bit cheeky and can be annoying in very minor ways. By the time they get to 16 or 17 they are through that and are very pleasant, calm and communicative young adults. They are, I find, very respectful of older people on the whole, and on the occasions we've remonstrated with youngsters doing something they shouldn't (writiing graffiti on walls, swinging on street furniture, that kind of thing) we haven't had foul abuse or agression in response, nor have their parents arrived at our door to threaten us with violence for daring to tell off their little darlings. I regularly see teenagers holding the arm of their abuela/abuelo to help them down the street, or carrying their shopping for them. It always strikes me how responsible and caring they are towards their younger sibliings too, lots of young teenagers take their younger brothers and sisters with them everywhere they go, being careful to hold their hand and generally watching out for them.

The people who drink in the streets here are older, have never seen anybody who looks under 18 involved.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> You are right in that responses will be subjective, but not in my opinion meaningless. What you see and and live is as "meaningful" as the next persons' experience.


But not at all helpful if the responses come from a fairly narrow and not very representative group of people. They will give a loaded and inaccurate picture of what Spanish 'youth' are really like - if anyone can give more than a very general overview, general to the point of being meaningless. Personal responses based on experience are 'meaningful' only to the person and not to anyone else, surely?
No serious research would leave such wide non defined fields anyway.
Most of us on this Forum are non-Spanish and few have the experience you and only a few others have. We really can't talk in any way that has significance for serious 'research' about what 'Spanish youth are 'like', which was the OP's question.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> I live in a barrio in a large town (not a holiday resort) in Andalucia. There is a high proportion of low income and indeed no income families here, many of them with teenage and younger children, and a fair proportion of gypsy families who get blamed for a lot of the crime committed in Spain.
> 
> In our experience the kids tend to go through a "phase" in pre-teen and early teen years when they get a bit cheeky and can be annoying in very minor ways. By the time they get to 16 or 17 they are through that and are very pleasant, calm and communicative young adults. They are, I find, very respectful of older people on the whole, and on the occasions we've remonstrated with youngsters doing something they shouldn't (writiing graffiti on walls, swinging on street furniture, that kind of thing) we haven't had foul abuse or agression in response, nor have their parents arrived at our door to threaten us with violence for daring to tell off their little darlings. I regularly see teenagers holding the arm of their abuela/abuelo to help them down the street, or carrying their shopping for them. It always strikes me how responsible and caring they are towards their younger sibliings too, lots of young teenagers take their younger brothers and sisters with them everywhere they go, being careful to hold their hand and generally watching out for them.
> 
> The people who drink in the streets here are older, have never seen anybody who looks under 18 involved.


Pretty much my experience too, in a small town (pop.5000). 

The lack of discipline in the IES (secondary school) is a bit alarming though. I go in for an hour once a term to help with the English class and come out with my ears ringing from the noise. My friend has given up teaching English privately to younger kids because they think they can do just what they like. Yet out of school they are perfectly fine.

The sports facilities here are first class, and most kids play something or other. This week our town hall organised an open-air concert for young singers and musicians to perform on stage. They were brilliant! We also have a group of Saharaui refugee children in town for a fortnight, staying with families in the town, and the local kids play a big part in fundraising for this annual event. 

Given that they have so little hope for the future I think it's really important that we give them plenty of opportunities to take part in sport, music and _solidaridad_, without it costing their unemployed parents anything.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> But not at all helpful if the responses come from a fairly narrow and not very representative group of people. They will give a loaded and inaccurate picture of what Spanish 'youth' are really like - if anyone can give more than a very general overview, general to the point of being meaningless. Personal responses based on experience are 'meaningful' only to the person and not to anyone else, surely?
> No serious research would leave such wide non defined fields anyway.
> Most of us on this Forum are non-Spanish and few have the experience you and only a few others have. We really can't talk in any way that has significance for serious 'research' about what 'Spanish youth are 'like', which was the OP's question.


Well, I kind of took it for granted that any "research" done on a forum is not very serious and that the OP would know that. Maybe I shouldn't suppose that. However, as a first port of call, like anyone asking for info on Spain, it's not a bad place to start.
The different perceptions from different areas and people in Spain are interesting.

To add a little more, I know or know of quite a few boys, well young men now, who did nothing at school and are doing nothing now. They are nice enough, not troublesome, but totally without drive, goals, direction, and like these people there are thousands throughout Spain. You might realise it and you might not.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Trubrit said:


> In my 5 years of living in this wonderful country I have never once seen drunken Spanish youths at all, and I am certainly not afraid of passing them late at night, so different to the Uk where abuse seems to be obligatory.


I've seen *lots *of drunk Spanish youths

they don't seem to get aggressive or belligerent as a rule though


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> But not at all helpful if the responses come from a fairly narrow and not very representative group of people. They will give a loaded and inaccurate picture of what Spanish 'youth' are really like - if anyone can give more than a very general overview, general to the point of being meaningless. Personal responses based on experience are 'meaningful' only to the person and not to anyone else, surely?
> No serious research would leave such wide non defined fields anyway.
> Most of us on this Forum are non-Spanish and few have the experience you and only a few others have. We really can't talk in any way that has significance for serious 'research' about what 'Spanish youth are 'like', which was the OP's question.



I'm guessing its just about the feel - you know, when you walk down the street and you see a gang of youths that you have to walk passed?? My answer would be, in Spain I'd feel fine. I'd smile, they'd smile (maybe). In the UK I'd smile and they'd give me the "what are you f****** looking at" menacing faces!

Educationally, I think Spanish kids are more willing as a whole, but the outcomes are possibly the same. The bright kids go further and the rest dont! Spanish kids have it harder and are more disciplined. I remember being on a train in Spain once and there were some youngsters five or six of them (about 14 - 15 years old), they were messing around, nothing too serious, but the guard walked down, shouted at them and gave the ringleader a clip round the ear. They all then sat down and behaved. Now imagine that scenario in the UK..... 

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> The lack of discipline in the IES (secondary school) is a bit alarming though. I go in for an hour once a term to help with the English class and come out with my ears ringing from the noise. My friend has given up teaching English privately to younger kids because they think they can do just what they like. Yet out of school they are perfectly fine.


Once a term?

I taught teens about 15 years ago in academies and as angil said they just wouldn't shut up. As the classes were small it didn't get too noisy, but it was just impossible, in several classes in different academies to have everybody listening at the same time. You could try every trick in the book (ignoring it, ignore those who are talking, getting angry, making jokes, giving punishments, sending people out, making talkers the focus of attention, getting students give the class, group/ pair activities etc, etc) it just didn't make a difference. And they are worse at this in extra curricular activities than in normal school because the teachers there carry more weight ie they decide what goes in the EXAM or not and whether they pass the year or not.
Poor OH still has this to deal with in his FP classes and it's this more than anything that "upsets" him.
As you say, out of the classroom they are perfectly fine.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

I just wanted to add that things are not always what they seem. I remember being very impressed with OH's family as in I thought them a tight knit happy family unit. There is the mother (father died a long time ago) and 5 children, all of whom were adults living at home except OH when I met them. Christmas and New Year were family celebrations and life at home in general was a well oiled machine with mother doing cooking and shopping, cleaning lady doing all cleaning and children washing up, laying the table etc.
However, it transpired that the two sisters who shared a room didn't speak to each other, another daughter shared her mother's bedroom, had some mental health issues and was told (Surprise surprise ) that she needed to get out of the mother's room. One son is now 53 and has never been known to have a partner of any sort.
At New Year everyone has dinner together, but about 20 mins after the bells toll all the youngies are out the door to go to the parties that they really want to go to, leaving behind the abuelos and people with young children, and all the cleaning up.
Happy families it aint, but from the outside it's a large family all happily living together.

The same could be said for youth behaviour in the street. It may not be what you think


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

I don't see any gangs of youths in my part of the UK. Usually a few around the village shop but never seen or heard of problems. Many are into cycling right now or cricket. Most 17/18 yr olds are still in education and have holiday jobs. I admit to not going out in inner cities but we do go to London for nights out and never seen any aggression so it must all be fine eh never had problems in Spain so that's ok. too. I do remember the incident in Nerja where over twenty went on the rampage and killed a British guy and it was said there are regular fights between gangs from rival villages.

If we are judging by what we see and hear then the most polite teens I have met have been in the USA even in the poor black area of Philadelphia.p


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Isobella said:


> I do remember the incident in Nerja where over twenty went on the rampage and killed a British guy and it was said there are regular fights between gangs from rival villages.


I think you mean the incident in Competa which took place in 2009. One such incident which happened six years ago does not exactly typify the behaviour of Spanish youth, and I read the local press in the area and cannot remember any reports of fights between gangs from rival villages, let alone regular ones.

We had a music festival in our nearest resort, Torre del Mar, a couple of weekends ago, which was attended by 60,000 people. According to the police there were no reports at all of any damage or violence.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Lynn R said:


> I think you mean the incident in Competa which took place in 2009. One such incident which happened six years ago does not exactly typify the behaviour of Spanish youth, and I read the local press in the area and cannot remember any reports of fights between gangs from rival villages, let alone regular ones.
> 
> We had a music festival in our nearest resort, Torre del Mar, a couple of weekends ago, which was attended by 60,000 people. According to the police there were no reports at all of any damage or violence.


Yes, one incident. Just saying that these things can happen anywhere. It does not typify every English youth either unless you read the Mail and Spain doesn't have an equivalent...I think I do remember quite a few examples in Spain, would Google but off to an Italian market.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

I should qualify my post from the start by saying that we live in an inland village (pop. <5,000 and shrinking) in the depths of Andalucía. 

The youth here are all well behaved, if not, they will be reported back to their parents (like many villages, so many families are inter-related). There is little or no vandalism or graffiti (there was one piece when we arrived but it has been painted over.) 

We have a fairly recently (2012) erected bus station (a roof and two walls) the walls of which are mostly plate glass(!). In Uk such a structure would have been subjected to loads of vandalism and broken glass! I have never seen a streetlight with a broken bulb/tube. AFAIK, there has only been one teenage (unmarried) pregnancy since we have been here (6½ years.) The Ayuntamiento organise a full range of sporting and other activities for the long summer holiday, many of which continue through the rest of the year. On some occasions, I have seen crocodiles of younger children en route to the municipal swimming pool solely in the care of just one or two teenagers. All forms of crime are rare here and I have commented elsewhere that I can be walking the dogs at 10 o'clock in the evening and can encounter a child as young as six years old walking home alone en route from Grandma's in perfect safety. Why? because she is not alone, there are other people about and everyone who sees her will be keeping an eye on her.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

xabiachica said:


> I've seen *lots *of drunk Spanish youths
> 
> they don't seem to get aggressive or belligerent as a rule though


Do you think this is because they tend to go it in mixed groups rather than in gangs of lads (or ladettes)?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

There was a gang fight between youths from our village and Medina Sidonia a few years ago and someone got stabbed. Two years ago some youths mugged an old man for a few euros.

In both these cases the cause was hard drugs rather than alcohol. The local crack-heads are well known to the police but nothing is done until there's an "incident".


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## Horlics (Sep 27, 2011)

The best you can do, Op, is look at some statistics, and I see some have been presented here.

From the rest of us you'll get opinion based on personal experience and that's going to be of little value.

E.g. I live in what is supposedly quite a nice place. I think it's nice and I have never seen any trouble here, ever. But I have a friend who is in the local police, and he does have some good stories to tell, and they do involve drunken and drugged Spaniards at times. I am tucked up in bed while all this goes on.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Well I hate young people.

In my day you weren't allowed out of the house until you were 27 etc...........


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Do you think this is because they tend to go it in mixed groups rather than in gangs of lads (or ladettes)?


I think that's highly likely 

They all grow up as friends together & somehow there doesn't seem to be that sudden 'them & us' caused by sexual tension between teenage boys & girls

Maybe it's the 'dos besitos' that does it - but they all hug, all the time

On more than one occasion when my daughter has had a party, several 16-20 year olds of both gender have all crashed in the same room together overnight


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2015)

In general Spanish youths have far more respect for most things but parents attitude, where they live, work opportunities and social media pressures are having an impact

The real sad thing is that the youths in Spain are changing (slowly) more towards the UK attitude and what great teachers they have in the Brit tourist abroad brigade

Where I live the only gangs of youths I see around with booze and **** are sadly from the expat communities


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Tadd1966 said:


> Where I live the only gangs of youths I see around with booze and **** are sadly from the expat communities


A few years ago, we heard a tremendous hullaballoo just around the corner from our house, one evening. We looked out and a group of local kids (aged around 12 at the time) had been caught out smoking in the patio of an empty house, and their parents were furious. One gypsy mother literally dragged her daughter home by the hair, slapping her as they went. Those same kids are now about 5 years older and none of them has ever been in any trouble.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> A few years ago, we heard a tremendous hullaballoo just around the corner from our house, one evening. We looked out and a group of local kids (aged around 12 at the time) had been caught out smoking in the patio of an empty house, and their parents were furious. One gypsy mother literally dragged her daughter home by the hair, slapping her as they went. Those same kids are now about 5 years older and none of them has ever been in any trouble.


Most of the gitanos around here are very well behaved, respectful and some even go to church. When it is time to decorate the streets for the Corpus procession, they are out there, shoulder to shoulder with the rest of us to make a good job of the decoration. Sometimes they are a bit stand-offish but once spoken to and they understand that they are not going to be treated with contempt, they come forward and, apart from their slightly different appearance, one would find it hard to distinguish them from many Spaniards.


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## Desiato (Jun 1, 2015)

For a couple of years I used to commute once a month between the UK and Spain which made me acutely aware of the cultural differences between the youths. What used to strike me the moment I set foot on a train at Gatwick was the attitude and anger in the eyes of what I came to call the "whatchoo lookinat"s. I've had this discussion many times before because I used to own a business that was youth orientated and attracted the good (decent young lads no different from me in my day) and the bad (the chavs that just wanted to destroy anything within arms reach). 

In the end I decided it was a cultural thing. In the UK it is possible for several generations to grow up in the same house and none of them have done a days work in their life. Each generation is a role model to the next and each passes on less and less in the way of desired qualities for a civilised society. Life's not so easy in Spain and whilst the close family unit is something we can point to and admire, the fact is the Spanish haven't had much choice because going it alone without a job and any money is just not possible. In the end what are produced in the UK are boys that are hardly distinguishable from rabid dogs with no respect for anyone or anything. They are the minority but you only have to look into their eyes to see there is nothing but hate and anger in them and I can honestly say that in 10 years of walking through crowded groups of Spanish youths at all hours of the day/night, I've never seen anything remotely similar. That's just my personal experience for what it is worth.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Desiato said:


> For a couple of years I used to commute once a month between the UK and Spain which made me acutely aware of the cultural differences between the youths. What used to strike me the moment I set foot on a train at Gatwick was the attitude and anger in the eyes of what I came to call the "whatchoo lookinat"s. I've had this discussion many times before because I used to own a business that was youth orientated and attracted the good (decent young lads no different from me in my day) and the bad (the chavs that just wanted to destroy anything within arms reach).
> 
> In the end I decided it was a cultural thing. In the UK it is possible for several generations to grow up in the same house and none of them have done a days work in their life. Each generation is a role model to the next and each passes on less and less in the way of desired qualities for a civilised society. Life's not so easy in Spain and whilst the close family unit is something we can point to and admire, the fact is the Spanish haven't had much choice because going it alone without a job and any money is just not possible. In the end what are produced in the UK are boys that are hardly distinguishable from rabid dogs with no respect for anyone or anything. They are the minority but you only have to look into their eyes to see there is nothing but hate and anger in them and I can honestly say that in 10 years of walking through crowded groups of Spanish youths at all hours of the day/night, I've never seen anything remotely similar. That's just my personal experience for what it is worth.



I totally agree

Jo xxx


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Desiato said:


> For a couple of years I used to commute once a month between the UK and Spain which made me acutely aware of the cultural differences between the youths. What used to strike me the moment I set foot on a train at Gatwick was the attitude and anger in the eyes of what I came to call the "whatchoo lookinat"s. I've had this discussion many times before because I used to own a business that was youth orientated and attracted the good (decent young lads no different from me in my day) and the bad (the chavs that just wanted to destroy anything within arms reach).
> 
> In the end I decided it was a cultural thing. In the UK it is possible for several generations to grow up in the same house and none of them have done a days work in their life. Each generation is a role model to the next and each passes on less and less in the way of desired qualities for a civilised society. Life's not so easy in Spain and whilst the close family unit is something we can point to and admire, the fact is the Spanish haven't had much choice because going it alone without a job and any money is just not possible. In the end what are produced in the UK are boys that are hardly distinguishable from rabid dogs with no respect for anyone or anything. They are the minority but you only have to look into their eyes to see there is nothing but hate and anger in them and I can honestly say that in 10 years of walking through crowded groups of Spanish youths at all hours of the day/night, I've never seen anything remotely similar. That's just my personal experience for what it is worth.


I have often commented to friends about this vein of anger that seems to run through parts of British society, mainly in the young, but not only, where people are permanently tense waiting for the bad to happen. There are constant comments about "doing my ead in" and you're fcking with me" etc and it's kind of a way of life to be discontent, angry and at the same time morose and apathetic about everything. I think this is a main difference in youths and culture in general between the 2 countries. The morose and apathetic is coming especially in the school drop outs I mentioned earlier. I hope the anger and violence don't appear.
Although the family is still a strong unit with its influence in Spain, as I've said before it can be just as restraining as it can be comforting. I think we need to look further than the 25, 30, 35 year old still living at home and think it's "nice". It often is a good healthy relationship, but it often isn't. It's amazing how little people living together can be with each other (I have an example of that in the UK where 2 members of my family live together and they see each other about 5 hours a week).
I think the comment about going alone with a job is probably more on target. It's very difficult for an under 18 to get a job here, especially now. Of course there are under 18's working, but the Saturday shop worker, or paper delivery kind of job doesn't really exist here so that feeling of having money that you've earned doesn't start until later.

PS The OP also posted on Germany and Italy. No replies. Spain 37 replies. We really are chatty, aren't we?


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Having just returned from the UK I can only offer my opinion of what I have recently experienced. The caveat being, not all youth in the UK are like this equally not all youth in Spain are family loving sweeties

Sat on a train next to a couple with a small boy about 7 yrs on

On got about 6 late teens, 3 couples stella cans in hand, pissed as ^^^^^&%^
girls falling all over the carraige. Cursing and swearing. WHen the father asked them to keep the language down they vilified him and his child. it was disgusting.

Most nights ( major towns) noise and mayhem

NOW

There I stop I cant compare that to my small village in Spain. Yes the kids here are more respectful to their elders without a doubt. I have never seen them falling over drunk in the street. BUT recently on TV I did watch a documentary about exactly what I have described above in a major town. Old people not being able to sleep at night , youths urinating in door ways.

My point is There are good and bad everywhere no point trying to compare and contrast


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I have often commented to friends about this vein of anger that seems to run through parts of British society, mainly in the young, but not only, where people are permanently tense waiting for the bad to happen. There are constant comments about "doing my ead in" and you're fcking with me" etc and it's kind of a way of life to be discontent, angry and at the same time morose and apathetic about everything. I think this is a main difference in youths and culture in general between the 2 countries. The morose and apathetic is coming especially in the school drop outs I mentioned earlier. I hope the anger and violence don't appear.
> Although the family is still a strong unit with its influence in Spain, as I've said before it can be just as restraining as it can be comforting. I think we need to look further than the 25, 30, 35 year old still living at home and think it's "nice". It often is a good healthy relationship, but it often isn't. It's amazing how little people living together can be with each other (I have an example of that in the UK where 2 members of my family live together and they see each other about 5 hours a week).
> I think the comment about going alone with a job is probably more on target. It's very difficult for an under 18 to get a job here, especially now. Of course there are under 18's working, but the Saturday shop worker, or paper delivery kind of job doesn't really exist here so that feeling of having money that you've earned doesn't start until later.
> 
> PS The OP also posted on Germany and Italy. No replies. Spain 37 replies. We really are chatty, aren't we?


Lol, yes to your PS!!! I blame the ease and welfare for the anger in British youths. Youths seem to have that emotion genetically built in. In Spain they have to use that anger on trying to get employment, on helping family and being kept busy. In the uk we have taken away their desperation and self reliance and made their lives too easy. So the anger and drive has nowhere to go so spills out indiscriminately. And nowadays in the uk, kids are brought up by their parent to believe they are right and society is wrong, so act accordingly 

Jo xxx

Sent from my D5803 using Expat Forum


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

cambio said:


> Having just returned from the UK I can only offer my opinion of what I have recently experienced. The caveat being, not all youth in the UK are like this equally not all youth in Spain are family loving sweeties
> 
> Sat on a train next to a couple with a small boy about 7 yrs on
> 
> ...


I very much agree there is good and bad everywhere.
However, I don't see why that indicates that there's no point in trying to compare. It's human nature. I'd just say that when people do compare for example different youth cultures, Spanish families, size of kitchens, or road sufaces then unless you know different families, roads, kitchens etc from different areas, different climate regions and / or different social status then your experiences and knowledge will be limited. There's nothing wrong with that, it's not less valuable, it just has to be recognized as such.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Pesky Wesky said:


> I very much agree there is good and bad everywhere.
> However, I don't see why that indicates that there's no point in trying to compare. It's human nature. I'd just say that when people do compare for example different youth cultures, Spanish families, size of kitchens, or road sufaces then unless you know different families, roads, kitchens etc from different areas, different climate regions and / or different social status then your experiences and knowledge will be limited. There's nothing wrong with that, it's not less valuable, it just has to be recognized as such.


Agreed


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## Simon22 (May 22, 2015)

Pesky Wesky said:


> PS The OP also posted on Germany and Italy. No replies. Spain 37 replies. We really are chatty, aren't we?


That's the Spanish influence, chatty and friendly!


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> I should qualify my post from the start by saying that we live in an inland village (pop. <5,000 and shrinking) in the depths of Andalucía.
> 
> The youth here are all well behaved, if not, they will be reported back to their parents (like many villages, so many families are inter-related). There is little or no vandalism or graffiti (there was one piece when we arrived but it has been painted over.)
> 
> We have a fairly recently (2012) erected bus station (a roof and two walls) the walls of which are mostly plate glass(!). In Uk such a structure would have been subjected to loads of vandalism and broken glass! I have never seen a streetlight with a broken bulb/tube. AFAIK, there has only been one teenage (unmarried) pregnancy since we have been here (6½ years.) The Ayuntamiento organise a full range of sporting and other activities for the long summer holiday, many of which continue through the rest of the year. On some occasions, I have seen crocodiles of younger children en route to the municipal swimming pool solely in the care of just one or two teenagers. All forms of crime are rare here and I have commented elsewhere that I can be walking the dogs at 10 o'clock in the evening and can encounter a child as young as six years old walking home alone en route from Grandma's in perfect safety. Why? because she is not alone, there are other people about and everyone who sees her will be keeping an eye on her.


That happens in villages all over Europe even the UK . Although I think even small villages usually have a local villain waiting to strike

Not sure that a 6 yr old should be walking home alone anywhere. Bad stuff only has to happen once, how many times has it been said nothing bad ever happens around here etc. I remember some years ago a child went missing at a feria, I think it may have been Ojen? She was found dead in a ravine on the edge of the village and a neighbour was arrested for her murder. You just never know anyone.

Someone also mentioned yobs on Gatwick trains (Desiato?) and all this stuff about hungry eyes my local trains stop at Gatwick and the majority of passengers are foreign tourists going into or out of London....hope they are tourists


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

I'm intrigued by this alleged connection between long-term unemployment and bad behaviour. We have had chronic unemployment in Andalucia for decades, apart from a brief construction boom. Yet there is little of the boorish behaviour described as witnessed in the UK.

Some of the worst behaviour I've seen was by young people with good jobs, or university students with wealthy parents. Anyone who's been in Oxford city centre at midnight on a Friday will know what I mean.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

I never knew alcohol affected different nationalities in different ways drunks are unpredictable whoever they are, belligerent one minute argumentative the next. A few weeks ago two gangs of youths were fighting in Sevilla and one was stabbed to death. The GC said it was alcohol fuelled. What do they know


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Alcalaina said:


> I'm intrigued by this alleged connection between long-term unemployment and bad behaviour. We have had chronic unemployment in Andalucia for decades, apart from a brief construction boom. Yet there is little of the boorish behaviour described as witnessed in the UK.
> 
> Some of the worst behaviour I've seen was by young people with good jobs, or university students with wealthy parents. Anyone who's been in Oxford city centre at midnight on a Friday will know what I mean.


I was reminded of this article. Love the word Sneer-Athon

Stop sneering at working-class youth at play in Magaluf and Ibiza | Barbara Elen | Comment is free | The Guardian


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

As a Spanish person, (not young tho!), I can only say that when I was young, my friends and I would go out drinking like most people here, we got drunk pretty much every weekend, or even every day when holidaying at 'grandma's' . We'll go out around 9-10 pm and come back home early in the morning to see our grandma preparing breakfast. As far as I remember, we never thought about jumping out of balconies, or hitting other people or robbing others, I think we were too busy having fun with friends.


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## Desiato (Jun 1, 2015)

Alcalaina said:


> I'm intrigued by this alleged connection between long-term unemployment and bad behaviour. We have had chronic unemployment in Andalucia for decades, apart from a brief construction boom. Yet there is little of the boorish behaviour described as witnessed in the UK.
> 
> Some of the worst behaviour I've seen was by young people with good jobs, or university students with wealthy parents. Anyone who's been in Oxford city centre at midnight on a Friday will know what I mean.


The problem with these kind of discussions is that there is no simple answer. Culture goes very deep and when it comes to unsocial behaviour, there are many different groups and two of which have been highlighted here. You've got the rabid dog group of young lads (often between 11 and 16) who swagger through town centres with their hoodies up snarling and kicking out at anything within reach and then you've got the Magaluf/football fans who age from 16 to.....60? who drink far too much and like nothing better than a scrap to round off the evening. This second group have been around since the 60/70's (mods, rockers, punks, skinheads etc) the only change of note is that the girls have become just as bad as the boys in the last 10/20 years (I blame girl power/Spice Girls ). The Chavs are the 4th generation of kids from parents who originally lost their jobs back in the 70's. The British welfare state is one of the finest in the world and people risk their lives trying to get across the channel to benefit from it. Once in the system you can go your entire life living on benefits but as time goes by, the feeling of being grateful for financial help changes to knowing your rights and demanding what you're entitled to. 

There will be other reasons why posh kids fight against their upbringing and will turn to drink as well as designer drugs but at the end of the day, there does seem to be something rotten at the core of UK culture and I doubt we'll ever figure out what combination of things has caused it. It is a minority though because a lot of us grew up in the middle of it and managed to walk past it, shaking our heads and muttering "idiots" under our breath. Why did we escape? Or is there still a little bit of British angst in us that rises up every now and then? I like a drink and can on occasion drink too much. I like a debate and sometimes they can get a bit too heated but as my (Spanish) wife says, "it's just the way you are, British", but she thinks the Brits sense of humour is far superior to the Spanish (more clever and less slapstick). We are the end result of a very long line of cultural influences and there's really not much we can do about it.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Isobella said:


> I was reminded of this article. Love the word Sneer-Athon
> 
> Stop sneering at working-class youth at play in Magaluf and Ibiza | Barbara Elen | Comment is free | The Guardian


I don't care where the passed out drunk in the street, who has vomited, peed and possibly donated other body fluids to the pavements of Magaluf is from, class wise or country wise. I mean that it's not important to me if this person is a city banker from Manchester, a brikkie from Valdepeñas or graphic designer from Glasgow. I don't think it's acceptable behaviour. I'm not sneering at British working class youth on holiday, I'm showing rejection, which is different to sneering of anti social behaviour. It has been reported that most antisocial behaviour in places like Magaluf is from non Spaniards. As lolito says, many Spaniards drink a lot but don't feel the need to strip off, get into fights or destroy bars. A lot of Brits/Germans/ Swedes etc don't either, but there are a lot who do go on holiday with these activities on their list of things to do.
Some of you will remember that my (Spanish) daughter went holiday to Magaluf a few years ago at the age of 18 I think it was. I was worried. She came back and I'm confident that she had a lot to drink, but didn't jump from any balconies, didn't have sex in the street and I'd bet she didn't pee or vomit in the street either.
She did say the hotels divided their clientele into a Spanish section and non Spanish as the Spaniards tended to not cause as many problems as the "others"


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Isobella said:


> I never knew alcohol affected different nationalities in different ways drunks are unpredictable whoever they are, belligerent one minute argumentative the next. A few weeks ago two gangs of youths were fighting in Sevilla and one was stabbed to death. The GC said it was alcohol fuelled. What do they know


I think you only need to go to Bristol city centre on a Saturday night and then Calle Huertas in Madrid and you'll instantly see the difference.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Isobella said:


> I was reminded of this article. Love the word Sneer-Athon
> 
> Stop sneering at working-class youth at play in Magaluf and Ibiza | Barbara Elen | Comment is free | The Guardian


*However, I’ve long felt that curbing of tourist behaviour is only half the story – what also needs to change is the vindictive attitude of those who make sneering at a particular breed of British holidaymaker an annual national sport. I’m talking about the pungent whiff of snobbery directed towards the young British working class on holiday*


Oh yes...and perhaps we could include those who live in Spain but see authenticity only in fly-blown pueblos (the only guiri in the village) and sneer at those who cling on to British dietary and other habits and live in 'Britzones' away from the 'real' Spain.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Desiato said:


> The problem with these kind of discussions is that there is no simple answer. Culture goes very deep and when it comes to unsocial behaviour, there are many different groups and two of which have been highlighted here. You've got the rabid dog group of young lads (often between 11 and 16) who swagger through town centres with their hoodies up snarling and kicking out at anything within reach and then you've got the Magaluf/football fans who age from 16 to.....60? who drink far too much and like nothing better than a scrap to round off the evening. This second group have been around since the 60/70's (mods, rockers, punks, skinheads etc) the only change of note is that the girls have become just as bad as the boys in the last 10/20 years (I blame girl power/Spice Girls ). The Chavs are the 4th generation of kids from parents who originally lost their jobs back in the 70's. The British welfare state is one of the finest in the world and people risk their lives trying to get across the channel to benefit from it. Once in the system you can go your entire life living on benefits but as time goes by, the feeling of being grateful for financial help changes to knowing your rights and demanding what you're entitled to.
> 
> There will be other reasons why posh kids fight against their upbringing and will turn to drink as well as designer drugs but at the end of the day, there does seem to be something rotten at the core of UK culture and I doubt we'll ever figure out what combination of things has caused it. It is a minority though because a lot of us grew up in the middle of it and managed to walk past it, shaking our heads and muttering "idiots" under our breath. Why did we escape? Or is there still a little bit of British angst in us that rises up every now and then? I like a drink and can on occasion drink too much. I like a debate and sometimes they can get a bit too heated but as my (Spanish) wife says, "it's just the way you are, British", but she thinks the Brits sense of humour is far superior to the Spanish (more clever and less slapstick). We are the end result of a very long line of cultural influences and there's really not much we can do about it.


Between the all-powerful state and the all-powerful market, anything still resembling a coherent society has had the life breath squeezed out of it.
The Welfare State was good and necessary but handing over all responsibility for social welfare to the state has as I see it removed personal and community responsibility on to 'them' -'the Social'. 'the Welfare' . 
That doesn't mean I don't think there should be a comprehensive system of social provision, far from it, I just think it's time we considered different methods of delivery.
I'd like to see power devolved to the lowest feasible level, to the parish, the municipality, the co-operative society, the trades union, the mutual society and so on. Why should the state have any role other than to devolve the resources needed to enable this to happen? Why shouldn't unemployment and sickness insurance, for example, be administered by not-for-profit organisations such as trades unions? 
That used to be the case in Germany where unions and companies administered such schemes at sectoral level - afalk they still do.
When things are remote, impersonality creeps in. Too little personal involvement leads to very little personal responsibility.


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Some of you will remember that my (Spanish) daughter went holiday to Magaluf a few years ago at the age of 18 I think it was. I was worried. She came back and I'm confident that she had a lot to drink, but didn't jump from any balconies, didn't have sex in the street and I'd bet she didn't pee or vomit in the street either.
> She did say the hotels divided their clientele into a Spanish section and non Spanish as the Spaniards tended to not cause as many problems as the "others"


I would imagine a large percentage of British youth don't either. I suppose most of you have Sons, Daughters or family relatives who are/ were young. Do they behave like this? because I think these stories are a minority, yes there are scumbag low life thugs but nevertheless Spanish prisons are full of eerm, Spanish, many of them young. 

Anyway, I think both places are fine, never seen a thing:roll:


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Oh yes...and perhaps we could include those who live in Spain but see authenticity only in fly-blown pueblos (the only guiri in the village) and sneer at those who cling on to British dietary and other habits and live in 'Britzones' away from the 'real' Spain.


Where do you meet these people? I'm sure they wouldn't be seen dead on an expat forum.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Isobella said:


> I would imagine a large percentage of British youth don't either.


Which is something I did actually say in my post


> As lolito says, many Spaniards drink a lot but don't feel the need to strip off, get into fights or destroy bars. A lot of Brits/Germans/ Swedes etc don't either, but there are a lot who do go on holiday with these activities on their list of things to do.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Where do you meet these people? I'm sure they wouldn't be seen dead on an expat forum.


There have been comments along those lines when talking about certain places in the south. Not a lot, but some have been posted.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> Where do you meet these people? I'm sure they wouldn't be seen dead on an expat forum.


Well, we do.
Not that long ago we had a thread started by someone complaining about some Brits he'd met at a dinner party, remember? Dreadful vulgar types who wouldn't 'integrate'.
Then there are the people who say they want to live in the 'real' Spain...loads of those.
Then you get posts bemoaning people who retain preferences for British food, who patronise British shops, who prefer to live within communities of fellow-Brits, posts which either state or imply that anything Spanish must by definition be superior to anything British, posts that jump on people who complain about anything....
I've often asked why it is that there are attitudes often found amongst Brits in Spain that you don't find in any other country.
And in addition I've often pointed out that there are no 'rules' about how to live in Spain apart from those of common courtesy and consideration and of course obeying the law.
It's similar to the 'you are a tourist, I am a traveller' phenomenum. 'You live in a Britzone but I live in the 'real' Spain', that kind of thing.


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Where do you meet these people? I'm sure they wouldn't be seen dead on an expat forum.


You should have added


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Well, we do.
> Not that long ago we had a thread started by someone complaining about some Brits he'd met at a dinner party, remember? Dreadful vulgar types who wouldn't 'integrate'.
> Then there are the people who say they want to live in the 'real' Spain...loads of those.
> Then you get posts bemoaning people who retain preferences for British food, who patronise British shops, who prefer to live within communities of fellow-Brits, posts which either state or imply that anything Spanish must by definition be superior to anything British, posts that jump on people who complain about anything....
> ...


Oh dear, we do have out knickers in a right old twist today! 

Perhaps we should not be so insular and take a read of some of the other country forums where one can find much the same thing being said by nationals of other countries about their new hosts.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Well, we do.
> Not that long ago we had a thread started by someone complaining about some Brits he'd met at a dinner party, remember? Dreadful vulgar types who wouldn't 'integrate'.
> Then there are the people who say they want to live in the 'real' Spain...loads of those.
> Then you get posts bemoaning people who retain preferences for British food, who patronise British shops, who prefer to live within communities of fellow-Brits, posts which either state or imply that anything Spanish must by definition be superior to anything British, posts that jump on people who complain about anything....
> ...


OK. I wondered if you were having a dig at people like myself and Baldilocks who live in pueblos (not at all "fly-blown") outside the Britzone, and sometimes like to point out the differences. Because believe me, there are differences. Not better, not worse, but different.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> OK. I wondered if you were having a dig at people like myself and Baldilocks who live in pueblos (not at all "fly-blown") outside the Britzone, and sometimes like to point out the differences. Because believe me, there are differences. Not better, not worse, but different.


Could be that you are right about our living amongst the 'proles' rather than in some posh suburb of the (in places) seedy Costas and, of course, we don't trot out the daily reminder of rich offspring or a failed attempt to emigrate to a former eastern bloc country where our piddly wealth would allow us to give the air of being millionaires. 

My only (tenuous) links with the Britzone is I occasionally wish to purchase Flora Light (lowest saturated fats) which does not seem to be stocked by Spanish shops either locally or within a reasonable distance so if someone nearby happens to be going that way and asks if there is anything... As for the "not better not worse," the "differences" are enough to make me want to live where I am, rather than near the 'seaside.'


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Alcalaina said:


> OK. I wondered if you were having a dig at people like myself and Baldilocks who live in pueblos (not at all "fly-blown") outside the Britzone, and sometimes like to point out the differences. Because believe me, there are differences. Not better, not worse, but different.


Which is the point I always make. That everywhere is the 'real' Spain, just a different version.I live in a community which although near a couple of towns is actually smaller than the town either you or Baldy live in. I don't see you two as living any differently from most of us here. People living in what you might think of as 'Britzones' might actually live in communities within those towns that are largely Spanish.
But the use of the term 'Britzone' is a tad patronising, don't you think? How many residents of a town have to be British before it becomes a 'Britzone'? The smaller the community, the smaller the number of Brits needed to make it a 'Britzone'.
Would you refer to a town or city in the UK with a large immigrant population, such as Rochdale or Bradford,as a 'Pakistanizone'? Or a 'Polezone'?
Of course you wouldn't.
So why is it OK to use it to refer to Brits who have chosen to live in, say, Alicante or Torremolinos?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Oh dear, we do have out knickers in a right old twist today!
> 
> Perhaps we should not be so insular and take a read of some of the other country forums where one can find much the same thing being said by nationals of other countries about their new hosts.


Oh, you mean there are people talking about the 'real' France, the 'real' Italy....
Well, I guess you'll find types like that everywhere.
I just don't think it's nice to denigrate people who choose to live differently than you or I.


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Never see the point in these " my area is better than your area " bollox discussions

Some people adore being with their fellow countrymen when abroad- others prefer getting as far away from them as possible .

So what- neither is " better" than the other its just personal preference


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Could be that you are right about our living amongst the 'proles' rather than in some posh suburb of the (in places) seedy Costas and, of course, we don't trot out the daily reminder of rich offspring or a failed attempt to emigrate to a former eastern bloc country where our piddly wealth would allow us to give the air of being millionaires.
> 
> My only (tenuous) links with the Britzone is I occasionally wish to purchase Flora Light (lowest saturated fats) which does not seem to be stocked by Spanish shops either locally or within a reasonable distance so if someone nearby happens to be going that way and asks if there is anything... As for the "not better not worse," the "differences" are enough to make me want to live where I am, rather than near the 'seaside.'


Not up to your usual standard, Baldy....not nice to be both abusive and to look down at British immigrants who choose to live differently from you.
Because, as I said earlier, Britzone is an offensive term.
The more I think about it, it implies an attitude of superiority . Otherwise, why use the term? As I said, you wouldn't call Rochdale and Bradford the Pakistanizone, would you...
I came to Spain because OH wanted to move and I had very few ideas as to what I would find. I last visited Spain in the 1980s. 
I didn't expect to find that there were two types of life in Spain, one the pueblo life, considered by some to have all the virtues plus authenticity, the other life in certain areas designated as 'Britzones', larger towns, often by the seaside, where large numbers of Brits are found who like living together, read the British press and prefer British food, places which are 'seedy', unfriendly, have no 'proles' and well, aren't really 'Spanish'.
This point of view crops up openly at times but more often as a kind of undercurrent. Not nice. Nobody 'owns' their idea of Spain.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Not up to your usual standard, Baldy....try argument instead of looking down at British immigrants who choose to live differently from you.
> And as I said earlier, Britzone is an offensive term.


Not worth arguing about. As for the use of the word "Britzone" you were the one who introduced it into the conversation.

As for places in UK that have high immigrant populations, they do seem to be frequently referred to as Little*(*()) as appropriate.

As for other forums, you should see the way France was frequently described by certain people from across the pond. I say 'was' because many have now gone back to where they should have never left.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Oh, you mean there are people talking about the 'real' France, the 'real' Italy....
> Well, I guess you'll find types like that everywhere.
> I just don't think it's nice to denigrate people who choose to live *differently than* you or I.


"differently from"


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## Mushu7 (Jul 17, 2015)

I probably wont end up down south in whichever island i choose (due to international schools not being commutable). But one of my musts for my house/apartment is somewhere i can sunbathe and nice views so i get the feel of being on holiday everyday.

I dont fancy the busy touristy places to live - too expensive for me - but there are some stunning apartments in those areas. If you can afford it and thats what environment you want to be in the go for it.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Not worth arguing about. As for the use of the word "Britzone" you were the one who introduced it into the conversation.
> 
> As for places in UK that have high immigrant populations, they do seem to be frequently referred to as Little*(*()) as appropriate.
> 
> As for other forums, you should see the way France was frequently described by certain people from across the pond. I say 'was' because many have now gone back to where they should have never left.


I didn't invent the term. I introduced it because others have used it. And I don't refer to places in the UK as 'Little whatevers' - actually, I've only ever heard the term 'Little' used here in Spain with the word' Britain' added, used to scornfully denote an area where many Brits live.

I think your comments about what Brits think of the French aren't relevant here. I'm talking about what some Brits think of other Brits. Do British immigrants who choose to live in rural areas in France or Italy sneer at those Brits who live in popular resorts with large British communities? If so, they are equally reprehensible, a bunch of snobs.
As for saying that those Brits who have gone back 'should never have left where they came from' is another example of judgmentalism. Who are we to say what people should not have done when we know nothing of their circumstances?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> "differently from"


*Some careful English speakers consider different to and different than problematic. The argument is that things differ from each other, and they don’t differ to or differ than each other, so different from is the only logical construction. But there are problems with the arguments against different to and different than, and the old prejudice against these phrases should be laid to rest.

First, one point in favor of different to and different than is that these constructions are common and have been common for centuries. They have appeared in works of great writers and can be found in books from editorially fastidious publishers, and no English speaker has trouble understanding them. Different than, which is especially common in the U.S., appears about twice for every three instances of different from in 21st-century newswriting from the U.S. and is common (though less so) in American books from this century. Different to, meanwhile, is nearly as common as different from in recent U.K. newswriting and is easily found in U.K. writing of all kinds not just from this century but from as long ago as the 18th century.

Plus, the argument against different than in particular is not well founded. Granted, than typically follows comparative adjectives (e.g., brighter than, less easy than), of which different is not one. This is not a rule, though, and than would not be the first word in English to have multiple uses. But the than in different than doesn’t even need to have its own definition. The word primarily means in comparison to or in contrast with, and these senses are perfectly in keeping with the word’s use in different than*


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Mushu7 said:


> I probably wont end up down south in whichever island i choose (due to international schools not being commutable). But one of my musts for my house/apartment is somewhere i can sunbathe and nice views so i get the feel of being on holiday everyday.
> 
> I dont fancy the busy touristy places to live - too expensive for me - but there are some stunning apartments in those areas. If you can afford it and thats what environment you want to be in the go for it.


This is one reason why I like living where I do, in a large town 5km inland from a seaside resort. Even by bus it only takes 20 minutes to go down to the coast for all the restaurants, etc. there if we want lunch or a night out, then we can come back to the quiet life here where the night-time streets are pretty much deserted, and property is much cheaper. Somewhere to sunbathe, tick (but I actually don't bother now I live here), nice views (we're up on a hill with panoramic views from our roof terrace, tick. Best of both worlds.

If you go just a short distance inland you can get a lot more for your money whilst still being able to enjoy the facilities of a resort town when you want to.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I didn't invent the term. I introduced it because others have used it. And I don't refer to places in the UK as 'Little whatevers' - actually, I've only ever heard the term 'Little' used here in Spain with the word' Britain' added, used to scornfully denote an area where many Brits live.
> 
> I think your comments about what Brits think of the French aren't relevant here. I'm talking about what some Brits think of other Brits. Do British immigrants who choose to live in rural areas in France or Italy sneer at those Brits who live in popular resorts with large British communities? If so, they are equally reprehensible, a bunch of snobs.
> As for saying that those Brits who have gone back 'should never have left' is another example of judgmentalism. Who are we to say what people should not have done when we know nothing of their circumstances?


When one refers to "across the pond" one is usually referring to the Atlantic rather than the English Channel which is usually referred to as "across the ditch." 

As for your comments regarding the other forums, those forums were introduced to counter suggestions that comments denigrating expats/immigrants who want to enjoy some of the benefits of their new country such as the sand, sea, sun and sangría coupled with little or no licensing restrictions while keeping very firm hold on their former country's better (in their eyes) bits such as the beer, marmite, the Daily Wail and Sun are limited to the Spanish forum. 

Unfortunately the constitution of the average Northern European is not capable of imbibing much more alcohol than the legal limit for driving without it going to the parts of their body that are incapable of coping with it and, as a consequence, behave extremely badly. Take a walk around places like Amsterdam, Munich, et al and see the number of 'pavement pizzas' and, if you are early enough and they haven't been shovelled up and carted off the the nick, the number of comatose drunks.


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## Mushu7 (Jul 17, 2015)

Lynn R said:


> This is one reason why I like living where I do, in a large town 5km inland from a seaside resort. Even by bus it only takes 20 minutes to go down to the coast for all the restaurants, etc. there if we want lunch or a night out, then we can come back to the quiet life here where the night-time streets are pretty much deserted, and property is much cheaper. Somewhere to sunbathe, tick (but I actually don't bother now I live here), nice views (we're up on a hill with panoramic views from our roof terrace, tick. Best of both worlds.
> 
> If you go just a short distance inland you can get a lot more for your money whilst still being able to enjoy the facilities of a resort town when you want to.


That sounds like heaven to me, exactly what i am looking for. 2 bathrooms would be a bonus too come to think of it  i am sure the novelty of sunbathing everyday would wear off, but i have some stunning rattan sunloungers which have been in their box for the last two years (due to ****ty weather)' so ive now decided to save them for Spain  

This Spain dream has really taken over my life since i decided to do it. All signed up to start my degree in October and will hopefully complete it within my 3 year timescale of moving. I've even started decluttering my house!

Back to the the current topic though, doesnt matter whether you are in a "britzone" or "real spainish" zone. Anyone who is living in Spain right now is "living the dream" away from the UK. So who cares?!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> *Some careful English speakers consider different to and different than problematic. The argument is that things differ from each other, and they don’t differ to or differ than each other, so different from is the only logical construction. But there are problems with the arguments against different to and different than, and the old prejudice against these phrases should be laid to rest.
> 
> First, one point in favor of different to and different than is that these constructions are common and have been common for centuries. They have appeared in works of great writers and can be found in books from editorially fastidious publishers, and no English speaker has trouble understanding them. Different than, which is especially common in the U.S., appears about twice for every three instances of different from in 21st-century newswriting from the U.S. and is common (though less so) in American books from this century. Different to, meanwhile, is nearly as common as different from in recent U.K. newswriting and is easily found in U.K. writing of all kinds not just from this century but from as long ago as the 18th century.
> 
> Plus, the argument against different than in particular is not well founded. Granted, than typically follows comparative adjectives (e.g., brighter than, less easy than), of which different is not one. This is not a rule, though, and than would not be the first word in English to have multiple uses. But the than in different than doesn’t even need to have its own definition. The word primarily means in comparison to or in contrast with, and these senses are perfectly in keeping with the word’s use in different than*


As a former teacher, I would have thought that your use of the English language would be impeccable and not leaning towards the American. American (if you must use that as a descriptor rather than the noun) English got off to a really bad start thanks to an idiot named Webster. Webster could not spell, his English was poor but he offered to write the first American dictionary with the thought in mind that if he set out how words should be spelled and used, then everybody would follow his way and he would no longer be wrong. The trouble is he was so inconsistent and would often spell the same word in more than one way, at least in the same paragraph and, on occasion, in the same sentence.

The fact that Americans use 'different than' is no excuse for you to use it in an English language forum just as the fact Americans shoot and kill more than 30,000 people each year is no excuse for you to go around doing the same.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

*Meanwhile...*
I've been looking for data on crimes committed by young Spanish people and it's very difficult to find in English or in Spanish.
According to this report the high rate of juvenile crime is a cause of great concern for the population...


> El elevado número de menores condenados en España por atentar contra la ley es un problema que preocupa mucho a nuestra sociedad. La edad media de iniciación en la delincuencia se sitúa en los 14 años y se agrava con el paso del tiempo.


So perhaps those of us who have posted on this thread should be more worried than we are!
Los datos de la delincuencia juvenil en España - cuv3. El digital de la FCOM de Villanueva C.U.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

ahem....

I wonder what *Spanish youths* would think about the way this thread has turned................

:focus:


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## Lolito (Aug 25, 2012)

xabiachica said:


> ahem....
> 
> I wonder what *Spanish youths* would think about the way this thread has turned................
> 
> :focus:




.... they probably won't give a s***... and go on enjoying themselves....


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## MagicWriter2014 (Jun 11, 2014)

My grandsons partner worked the night shift at a McDonalds in a small city in Scotland and they had to have bouncers on the door during the early hours. A guy actually pooped in the doorway one night in front of folk, disgusting behaviour!!!


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## Rabbitcat (Aug 31, 2014)

Did he lose his job there for such behavior?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Which is the point I always make. That everywhere is the 'real' Spain, just a different version.I live in a community which although near a couple of towns is actually smaller than the town either you or Baldy live in. I don't see you two as living any differently from most of us here. People living in what you might think of as 'Britzones' might actually live in communities within those towns that are largely Spanish.
> But the use of the term 'Britzone' is a tad patronising, don't you think? How many residents of a town have to be British before it becomes a 'Britzone'? The smaller the community, the smaller the number of Brits needed to make it a 'Britzone'.
> Would you refer to a town or city in the UK with a large immigrant population, such as Rochdale or Bradford,as a 'Pakistanizone'? Or a 'Polezone'?
> Of course you wouldn't.
> So why is it OK to use it to refer to Brits who have chosen to live in, say, Alicante or Torremolinos?


It's not meant to be patronising, just descriptive. You know you are in the Britzone when you get given a menu in English, without asking, and if you ask for a cerveza it comes in bloody great jar with a handle, again without checking.

Whereas "fly-blown pueblo" is OK is it???


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> Could be that you are right about our living amongst the 'proles' rather than in some posh suburb of the (in places) seedy Costas and, of course, we don't trot out the daily reminder of rich offspring or a failed attempt to emigrate to a former eastern bloc country where our piddly wealth would allow us to give the air of being millionaires.


:eyebrows::lol::evil::roll::rofl:


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

One thing Spain is very good at is multi- culturalism, even if some British immigrants aren't easy with that
Communities of peoples from different nationalities settle here, North Africans, Scandinavians and
other Northern Europeans, Russians, Germans, Irish, Romanians and of course Brits.
Just as in other countries of Europe and North America, these settlers often tend to congregate in areas, usually on the coast - they liketo be beside the seaside, especially if Brits as they are an island race... They also often retain their ethnic or national customs, their dietary habits, their daily routines, their national media. They are often distinguished too by their costume and shopping preferences.
Of course this is not the case with all settlers and some, perhaps the more discerning type, prefer to avoid these communities and even insist that such people should shed their native habits and adopt the customs of their adopted country.

What seems incongruous is that if such opinions were voiced about the presence of tightly- knit ethnic communities in the UK or some other countries, these views would be frowned on, dismissed even as 'racist'.as it is perfectly acceptable for immigrants to the UK to retain their dietary customs, dress, even clothing that covers the female wearer from head to foot, to socialise and shop within their community..

But it is surely to be welcomed that apart from a disgruntled few, Spaniards have welcomed the presence of multi- culturalism in their cities, towns and villages even and show a tolerance not shared by all of the immigrant communities as is sadly also the case in the UK where such people often tend to support UKIP or other groups that oppose multiculturalism as being 'non- British'.

So when discussing the habits and behaviour of youth in Spain, this acceptance of different ways of life coexisting happily with the host community has to be noted


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> So when discussing the habita and behaviour of youth in Spain, this acceptance of different ways of life coexisting happily with the host comunity has to bebrecognised.


I think that "this acceptance" has to be looked at carefully.
Acceptance might prevail when the immigrants bring in money (Ibiza, Majorca, Torremolinos, Benidorm, Torrevieja), but when it brings in people with different coloured skin, different customs in large numbers and not much money the native population are not so happy.
And in football there have been problems with fans calling players monkeys. One even threw a banana at Alves. Isolated incidents or are these just the stories that we hear about of the many that could be reported? I think I'm right in saying that there are few places in Spain that have the concentrations of immigrants that places like Birminham, London and Bradford have/ had. I'd like to see how the Spanish handle that when it happens
Personally, I think the Spanish are accepting of certain foreigners. Where I am for example, and in Bilbao, being British still carries a certain _caché, _ridiculous, but true. However, South Americans are looked down on by some. I was in a shop a while back with a South American man in front of me. When he left the shop assistant turned to another woman and started talking about "them" and how they come "here", so I said "Well I'd better go as I'm an immigrant too" But they wouldn't have it. In another shop a muslim woman was being served and as soon as she was out of the shop the assistant referred to her as "esta morita" with a disrespective tone. This time it was a colleague of hers who pointed out that that wasn't the correct way to talk about her. And Americans are often compared unfavourably to the British especially when referring to language.


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## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

mrypg9 said:


> One thing Spain is very good at is multi- culturalism, even if some British immigrants aren't easy with that
> Communities of peoples from different nationalities settle here, North Africans, Scandinavians and
> other Northern Europeans, Russians, Germans, Irish, Romanians and of course Brits.
> Just as in other countries of Europe and North America, these settlers often tend to congregate in areas, usually on the coast - they liketo be beside the seaside, especially if Brits as they are an island race... They also often retain their ethnic or national customs, their dietary habits, their daily routines, their national media. They are often distinguished too by their costume and shopping preferences.
> ...



I feel I needed to earn my acceptance by the Spanish in my community, which is far enough. I was treat like a stranger in strangeville for atleast 12 months til 'they' got used to me & me them!. & accepted I seemed to be, despite my cobbled together half a dozen words in Spanish (I do try!). 
But I sometimes get a feeling of being treat a certain way because I am not Spanish when I venture out of 'my' community. I recognise this from Asia (Korea & Japan can be extremely nationalistic; when is suits them!). So I am not unfamiliar with a little racist undercurrent!
I don't feel the "embrace of multiculturalism"! 'They' can't seem to stand the Chinos (seen as tax dodgers!) & the Indians who steel their trade. I have pulled a few Spanish friends in conversation who have made racist remarks regarding the colour of people's skin and homophobia is far more prevelant here than one would think (espcially amongst younger Spanish). & the assumption is that Brits drink too much!
There is a lot of things here (Andalucia) that remind me of growing up in the early 70's; the good and the bad. One of the good being happy with your lot and willing to put in a hard days graft just to make ends meet (I don't get the feeling of materialism here as in the UK). One of the bad being racism, that comes from old fashioned ignorance. 
Of course these are massive generalisations, I truly can't speak for every Spanish person! Only the ones I have encountered! Like everywhere; some salt of the earth, some nasty pieces of work etc etc etc! People are people. & that includes the younger members of the community!
(& I even saw a Swedish hairdressers in Fuengirola! Is that entirely necessary?!?)


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## Simon22 (May 22, 2015)

angil said:


> (& I even saw a Swedish hairdressers in Fuengirola! Is that entirely necessary?!?)


Why shouldn't Swedes have nice hair? :eyebrows:


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## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

Simon22 said:


> Why shouldn't Swedes have nice hair? :eyebrows:


Got some lovely Swedish friends all over the World with fabulously coiffed hair despite the lack of a Swedish specific hair salon within a thousand miles! Dunno, I just thought it was funny and one step beyond a British dentist or Finnish Supermarket etc! Hair is hair! (Although it did take my Korean hairdresser, who spoke no English, a while to get used to this '******' and her uber short haircut! But some how I managed!).


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

angil said:


> Got some lovely Swedish friends all over the World with fabulously coiffed hair despite the lack of a Swedish specific hair salon within a thousand miles! Dunno, I just thought it was funny and one step beyond a British dentist or Finnish Supermarket etc! Hair is hair! (Although it did take my Korean hairdresser, who spoke no English, a while to get used to this '******' and her uber short haircut! But some how I managed!).


You'd be surprised. At least half a dozen British women here have asked me where I have my hair done, and I've told them, given them directions, said how cheap it is (€30 for colour, cut and blowdry) and that's all fine and well until I get to the part where I say neither of the stylists speak any English. The response is "oh", end of conversation.


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## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

Lynn R said:


> You'd be surprised. At least half a dozen British women here have asked me where I have my hair done, and I've told them, given them directions, said how cheap it is (€30 for colour, cut and blowdry) and that's all fine and well until I get to the part where I say neither of the stylists speak any English. The response is "oh", end of conversation.


I knew a Scottish woman who would fly from Korea to Houston, USA to visit her hairdresser! Each to their own!! I just got a hair mag and pointed!


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## Lizzy Pea (Aug 5, 2015)

It sounds pleasant, but is there a lot of grafiti?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Lizzy Pea said:


> It sounds pleasant, but is there a lot of grafiti?


Graffiti depends on where you are. When we have been down in the area of the Costa del Sol, we have seen quite a bit but, here in this village, I have seen only one piece of graffiti in the 6½ years we have been here and that was old when we arrived - it has now been painted over. In general, here, vandalism is not particularly apparent and you could say that, compared to UK, it is non-existent.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

This may have been mentioned before but I confess I haven't read the entire thread, but what I have definitely noticed about the youth in Spain is that all of them, without a single exception, are younger than me...


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## Lizzy Pea (Aug 5, 2015)

Thankyou Baldilocks


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## Isobella (Oct 16, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> Graffiti depends on where you are. When we have been down in the area of the Costa del Sol, we have seen quite a bit but, here in this village, I have seen only one piece of graffiti in the 6½ years we have been here and that was old when we arrived - it has now been painted over. In general, here, vandalism is not particularly apparent and you could say that, compared to UK, it is non-existent.


I think your village is the equivalent of the Spanish Brigadoon in the sun


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

I've waited to see how this thread developed but it doesn't really seem to be getting much better (IMHO).

My three 'youths' are great (well, I would say that wouldn't I). They are well rounded, multi-cultural, teenagers (16, 16 and 18) who have many Spanish friends as well as English friends back in UK. In fact my eldest has friends all over the world as he seems to be constantly chatting to them all at all times of the day and night.

Where we are, there is never any bother with bullying, drinking, or any of the other issues that we experienced in the UK. We came from the Cotswolds so were somewhat blinkered to the charms of inner cities but even still I would say that the youths in Spain (where we are now) are more respectful, polite, well mannered and well behaved individuals. 

Let's see if I still think that when my daughter brings her first 'serious' boyfriend home


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Isobella said:


> I think your village is the equivalent of the Spanish Brigadoon in the sun


Please explain. 
If you are inferring that it is only a transient place and may not exist in real-life, read the post by snikpoh. In Spain it is quite common to find a lack of vandalism - apart from a lack of graffiti, you don't find that street lights have been broken by stone throwers nor are windows, walls aren't pushed over, cars aren't vandalised, etc, etc.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> In Spain it is quite common to find a lack of vandalism - apart from a lack of graffiti, you don't find that street lights have been broken by stone throwers nor are windows, walls aren't pushed over, cars aren't vandalised, etc, etc.


It may be common in small villages (where only a tiny proportion of the population of the country as a whole live) but there is, most definitely, vandalism in the larger towns and cities. Not only graffii, but also I have seen telephone cabinas and bus shelters with the glass smashed, and read reports locally (and where I live is no worse than any other town of comparable size) of rubbish containers set on fire, numbers of cars vandalised on the same night, play equipment in parks damaged, etc. It isn't an everyday occurrence by any means, but it does happen and to pretend otherwise is foolish.

A report concerning problems in Chilches (a very small, sleepy place within the Velez-Málaga municipality):-


http://www.laopiniondemalaga.es/axa...-denuncian-serie-actos-vandalicos/591241.html


If vandalism wasn't a problem, there would be no need for this type of initiative to be launched in your own Provincia de Granada, would there?

http://www.ideal.es/granada/20130307/local/granada/granada-lanza-plan-para-201303071300.html


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Isobella said:


> I think your village is the equivalent of the Spanish Brigadoon in the sun


It is a well- known fact, Isobella, that the Costa del Sol is the concentration point for all vice, greed and vulgarity in the whole of Spain.
Most of the se vices were introduced by uncultured loutish immigrants, chiefly British.
Not only morals and habits but the entire landscape has been changed so that the bemused incomer might ask 'Is this Spain?
My friends in the UK were appalled when I said I was going to live there. They were right.
They said all the Costas were the same...spoilt beyond redemption.
And I thought they were talking out of their rectums....:rolleyes


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> *It may be common in small villages (where only a tiny proportion of the population of the country as a whole live)* but there is, most definitely, vandalism in the larger towns and cities. Not only graffii, but also I have seen telephone cabinas and bus shelters with the glass smashed, and read reports locally (and where I live is no worse than any other town of comparable size) of rubbish containers set on fire, numbers of cars vandalised on the same night, play equipment in parks damaged, etc. It isn't an everyday occurrence by any means, but it does happen and to pretend otherwise is foolish.


Approximately 30% of the Spanish population live in rural areas, hardly a *tiny* proportion. What you are saying, in general, bears out what I have said.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

thrax said:


> This may have been mentioned before but I confess I haven't read the entire thread, but what I have definitely noticed about the youth in Spain is that all of them, without a single exception, are younger than me...


Welcome back!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

baldilocks said:


> Approximately 30% of the Spanish population live in rural areas, hardly a *tiny* proportion. What you are saying, in general, bears out what I have said.


21% actually, as of 2014.


Población rural (% de la población total) | Datos | Tabla

Given the size of Spain, that population is spread very sparsely indeed.

I don't think what I said bore out what you said at all. You said it is quite common in Spain to find a lack of vandalism, and whilst the problem may still be less than in some countries, I don't think that's true.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

In the past seven years I've seen three examples of graffiti in my town. It's a "pueblo blanco" with plenty of tempting whitewashed walls, pop. 5,500 including a large number of unemployed youngsters. One was a girl's name, one was something rude about the mayor, and one was a little more anatomical. They were all dealt with quickly. I've never seen any vandalism though once or twice some kids have thrown stones at our house from the cliff-top path which runs behind it. I pretended to take photos of them and they ran off.

There is more graffiti in the cities round the Bahia de Cádiz, mainly of a political nature and sometimes quite funny. My favourite was "Nothing is impósibul", in San Fernando.


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

Four fifths of the population of Spain does not live in rural areas, so the experience of those who do is less than typical.

Some information about the annual cost of vandalism to the city of Granada (which has just about the worst graffiti problem of any Spanish city I've visited, and I'm talking about mindless tagging, not the artwork kind of graffiti or political slogans).

El precio del vandalismo en Granada | Cableados

http://elpais.com/diario/2011/02/17/andalucia/1297898535_850215.html


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> Four fifths of the population of Spain does not live in rural areas, so the experience of those who do is less than typical.
> 
> Some information about the annual cost of vandalism to the city of Granada (which has just about the worst graffiti problem of any Spanish city I've visited, and I'm talking about mindless tagging, not the artwork kind of graffiti or political slogans).
> 
> ...


Yes, I remember Granada was awful.

Incidentally I don't live in a rural area, officially Alcalá is a "ciudad", albeit a small one. If we're talking demographics, there are about 15 million people living in towns with a population less than 20,000.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo...000_habitantes_por_Comunidades_Aut.C3.B3nomas


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