# Pro's and con's for moving back to SA



## moosemont (Oct 9, 2012)

Hi everyone, my family and I are seriously thinking of moving back to SA after being back in the UK for around 13 years now. We originally lived near Joburg but much prefer Mpumulanga - not only do we have family there but the area around Nelspruit has much appeal for us. Has anyone returned to this region and could I please ask in general for pro's and con's for returning? It is such a big decision, we have more financial security here and free healthcare which is a plus when you have 3 children. BUT we feel more "alive" in South Africa and don't feel our quality of life is as it could be. Does anyone else feel this way?

Particularly concerned about cost of medical and does anyone know about crime levels in this region? Much appreciated. Thankyou


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## Jem62 (Jul 25, 2012)

Exactly how I felt after 23 years in the UK. We had enough of the bad weather endless traffic jams, Underground travel, working harder than we ever did with little or no free time. In contrast, coming home meant family, friends and not having to explain who we are and were we've come from. Not to speak about the amazing quality of life in SA - we moved to CT, don't really know much about your prefered area. We put in some insurance policies, we leased our house for five years to our local authority who will take care of all maintenance and will pay rent at an agreed level whether there are tenants in the house or not. Plus we aquired dual nationality over the years. It made moving feel less like a gamble, we haven't regretted it after 18 months. We have much to offer our country and I felt that if it did go down I needed to make a contribution. There is an emptiness in living a life without a driving purpose in ones heart, helping to make SA work gives me such a purpose. Come home.


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## bshoward (Jun 18, 2012)

Hi, i currently live in the UK as well and i am in the same boat as you, i got a few budgets from people on here about the cost of medical and housing etc the bloke i was talking to reckons any thing from R3500 - R4000 a month for a family of 4 , i am going back in December for a nice months holiday (cant wait) and i will definatley be looking around at all the costs involved BUT as you said is there any point in being in a place where you are not happy and all there is to life in the UK is work and no passion for life.


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## bshoward (Jun 18, 2012)

Have a look below:

Some of the items are close to my spend others are market related.
Yes you can live on less, but this is probably a fair representation of a typical family of four in my suburb.

You can rent a 90m square duplex/simplex 2 bed 2 bath with UCP and garden in a reasonable area for an estimated R4k - R7k/month.

Apologies for the layout, does not translate well from Word..


ITEM ZAR
Bond/Mortgage – R14000 (R1.5m home, 10% deposit, 20 years)	14000
Groceries 5000
Medical Aid - ('Comprehensive' R12k/year medical saving for GP) 4000 
Car Payment (R150 000 - 54 months) 3500
Petrol (2 Cars 3000km/Month Total 9L/100km) 3000
School Fees (2 kids, Model C, Private is upwards of double) 2500 
After School Care - If both parents work 1500
Insurance (Household + 2 Vehicles Fully Comprehensive) 1500
Mobile Phone - 500 Minutes 1400
Housing Complex Levy 1200
Council Rates 1200
Clothing 1000
Vehicle Service 1000
Extra Mural Activities, Monthly - Kids 1000
Electricity 800
ADSL - 1MB Line 550
Investments 500
Eating Out 500
Security Company with Alarm 350
Account Fees (2 Accounts no Credit Card) 350
Gifts 300
Water 300
Hardware 200
Pet Food/Vet (one Cat, Dogs are more expensive) 200 
Telkom Telephone Line and Rental 200
Parking (Malls, Car Guards) 150

46200


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## Orbit24 (Jul 9, 2012)

Hi,

Since you asked about medical:
To expand on the list BSHoward posted, the Medical Plan listed above is for Discovery Health's Classic Saver.
R4272/month, two adults and two children under ten. Annual available 'savings' (GP and Specialist day visits) available to us - R12800p/a. Ours is often exhausted around August.
Unclaimed medical expenditure may be claimed against taxable earnings annually. This often results in a few thousand rand tax rebate in our case.
If you are fortunate your company will subsidize your monthly contribution, often half.

SA is a great place to raise children depending on the area you settle in. We are able to move to the UK if we wish but choose to stay here. Admittedly this is largely due to the differences in weather between the two continents and privileged jobs myself and my OH are fortunate to have.

Good luck with your decision.


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## DannyBoy (Apr 29, 2009)

Does anyone know if there are companies which still use Legacy systems (COBOL MAINFRAME) in South Africa. Don't Laugh. I have been working on COBOLOSAURUS REXUS for 19 years in the U.S and also desperately want to head back to S.A, but I just don't know if there are any COBOL jobs, contract or Perm out there anymore.
Please let me know if you have any idea about this.


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## Mr B (Oct 27, 2012)

All I can say is " you must be mad to want to go back there" the country is in a mess and will only get worse. UK may be the safest and most political balanced country in the World ( which doesn't say much for others ) although I am becoming rather embarrassed by our slow decadent fall into an disrespectful greedy bunch of humans. Albeit ... A damn site better than SA. I was born there and left when I was 10 ( now 35 ) and I would never go back. Apart from the weather and beauty, what else is there to go back for ?! 
The violence is growing daily and the Government ( useless ) employ corrupt private policing companies to enforce discipline ... Say no more. Stay in the UK for your family's sake.


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## DannyBoy (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Mr B, I hear what you're saying.
I'm in the U.S, and have been moving around like a migrant worker to stay employed (Boston, Massachusetts for 9 years, Hartford, Connecticut for 3 years, Herndon, Virginia for 3 yeas, Louisville, Kentucky for 2 years, Columbia, South Carolina for a year, Madison, Wisconsin for a year and now back in Columbia, South Carolina for 2 years). The constant moving to stay employed cost me a marriage and the loss of most of my friends. 
Things in the U.S also will get worse as they are constantly outsourcing work to China and India.
I was thinking of heading back to S.A in the hope of getting some more stability in my life and not having to move around so much to stay employed.


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## Mr B (Oct 27, 2012)

Well my friend , I hear you. Therefore it is more about the pro's and cons of your life and what it takes to make you happy; rather than the place you intend to live.


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## Orbit24 (Jul 9, 2012)

DannyBoy said:


> Does anyone know if there are companies which still use Legacy systems (COBOL MAINFRAME) in South Africa. Don't Laugh. I have been working on COBOLOSAURUS REXUS for 19 years in the U.S and also desperately want to head back to S.A, but I just don't know if there are any COBOL jobs, contract or Perm out there anymore.
> Please let me know if you have any idea about this.


Hi DannyBoy,

I work in the ITC Sales sector in SA.
I've asked a couple people about COBOLSAURUS REXUS and received some vacant expressions, but to be fair my circle of contacts is more sales than admin orientated..

Check this out, not sure if this is anywhere close to your field, but there are COBOL jobs out there.

As far as moving back here is concerned, there is nothing wrong with wanting to return to SA IMO. 
There are apparent issues with many developed countries that were not so prevalent a decade ago. Job opportunities, crime and fiscal stability come to mind.

In SA criminals appear to be targeting businesses more than private homes and there is still great disparity between the haves and have-nots. 
I acknowledge that there are few places in the world where your home stands the chance of being invaded by gun-toting strangers demanding your possessions and possibly more. 
This said I only know of one family who this has happened to in the last five years within all the circles of people and families I know. 
They set a course for Canada which never materialized when insurance replaced all of their possessions, they came through physically unscathed and found themselves with good jobs and lifestyle. Personal choice..

One thing to possibly consider is that our general elections are going to happen in 2014. Even the eternal optimists feel that if the existing party remains in power we may be in for darker days than seen before.
Read this article from a reputable publication.

Good luck with your decision, I've heard it's not all roses in the US and some are waiting for the hammer to fall when national debt finally catches up with the nation. A visitor from the US who works in our industry was surprised to hear I was taking three weeks leave. He said that in the US (Atlanta) you ran the risk of being replaced if you were absent from your work station for longer than a very short period of time.
General statements and observations above of course.

Feel free to PM me.

Orbit.


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## DannyBoy (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Orbit24, this is very helpful.


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## Orbit24 (Jul 9, 2012)

No problem.

Reading over my post it does come across mostly doom and gloom.

I should point out that as some one with the option to immigrate to the UK we have chosen to stay here for now due to our enjoyment of job stability and wealth creation, good schooling for the kids, lifestyle, friendly people, excellent private medical and weather.

Again, good luck with the choice, sounds like you've had a time of it over there.


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## Talon (Apr 18, 2011)

*My opinion*

Hi Moosemont

I am south african born and bred, married to a british citizen and I have 2 young children who are also registered as british citizens.

I love South Africa but to be truthful I do not wish to raise my children here.

I currently live in Johannesburg and hate the city life but moving to the country poses two risks :
1. lack of decent employment
2. crime in outlying areas

Recently a 13 year old girl was shot dead for her cellphone, a few days later her 50 year old neighbour was also murdered. To be honest us South Africans have become so desensitized that we literally think "shame, another murder". I have many friends that crime has impacted in some way or the other and the sad reality is that to think "Well at least I'm still alive" after an incident is not good enough for me. Most of my friends have emigrated to Australia or New Zealand and they absolutely love it!

It costs us roughly R70k per month to live. Granted thats living in a nice 4 bed house, sending my kids to a private school (one of the cheapest by the way) etc But my biggest costs are tax, medical aid, insurance, petrol, car repayments etc. These are things that you have to have in SA as there is no infrastructure provided for you.

The state of education is shocking! I recently interviewed 3rd year accounting students and they all failed my small assessment. Getting into university is quota based and if you fall into the wrong ethnic group it doesn't matter if you're an A+ student, you may not get in to study the field of your choice.

If you want to stay sane here do not read the newspaper, turn a blind eye to the arrogance and corruption of politicians, don't care about where your tax money is going, injustice and cruelty to fellow human beings, etc

My sister in law came back and returned after 4 months - she said that in the UK people think they work hard but SA is nothing short of slave labour 

I've spent a lot of time in the UK and we are contemplating moving there, to the countryside. The weather is a big worry for me as I'm a real sun baby but my inlaws who live there go on holiday twice a year abroad and I also have SA to return to for holidays. The weather is a small price to pay for my kids future. Australia and NZ are also potentials to look at.

The other worry I have is that we are a largely peaceful relaxed nation here who are very quick to laugh at ourselves and I hear that in the UK everything is very politically correct - which can be stifling to free thinking South Africans. So its a decision that we're thinking about, and I appreciate your quandry as I am in the same boat. 

I'm sorry if this post may seem negative, it is not intended to be. If you can ignore the challenges here you will be very happy indeed.


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## DannyBoy (Apr 29, 2009)

Hello Talon,
the becoming desensitized and walking around with blinkers like everything is just okay, is what I see with my immediate family in Cape Town (brothers, sisters etc.). They all have good jobs and ignore the current news items, refuse to even watch the news on TV or read the paper. 
My biggest concern is finding work. I have had no response from any of the attempts I made to contact recruiters for I.T work. 
People tell me that there is a shortage of "Skilled people", yet in a Chartered Account blog, I read last night, hundreds of newly graduated CA's cannot find work.
Also I am reading that like the U.S, Accenture and EDI, to mention two companies, are bringing a lot of foreign workers (from India) into the country.
I can last maybe one year without a job if I had to return. Outside of I.T I have no clue what other work I could do. I tried cleaning equipment in a gym for peanuts a few years ago when the IT market in the U.S went bad, I tried repairing things at peoples houses (doors, cupboards etc), but these are very low paying jobs with little income.
I am very unhappy in the U.S. They are outsourcing work to India, China and the Philippines even when 23 million people are unemployed. 
To make matters even worse, most of the people I knew in S.A when I left 19 years ago, have left, and my family have their own problems and are not going to be happy with me sitting around for 3 to 6 months while I look for work.
That whole "Skills Shortage" thing is a lie. It's a real shame the country turned out like this after all the promises Mandela made of the "Rainbow Nation".


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## Orbit24 (Jul 9, 2012)

Hi DannyBoy,

I was chatting to a colleague in technical about your situation and he reckoned that there are an abundance of COBOL jobs especially in the Gauteng area. If you would like to PM me or post some more specific details on your specialisation I will pass them on to him to see if his claim is substantiated or full of bs. No obligation though.

I know what you mean about the outsourcing. We looked at immigration quite seriously this year and it is very sobering to compare your skillset, education and pay scale with countries such as India. Then you start to understand how competitive things are still to become in this global village of ours.. Needless to say I have gone back to studying!

On the news thing, a customer of mine reffered to reading or watching the news as 'polluting his mind'.
He would dwell for days on Zuma's initiative to buy a jet, R30b wasted in 2011, Mr Malema etc etc.
He avoids the news now and seems happier. What applies to him probably applies to many. Maybe come out to SA for a LSD trip?


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## DannyBoy (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Orbit24, I have sent you a PM.


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## DannyBoy (Apr 29, 2009)

Another thing that has reared it's ugly head in the "New South Africa" is blatant age-ism.
A bunch of colleagues that worked with me at Reader's Digest, Safmarine, Mobil and Caltex, all hard working, highly educated and at the top of their game, have been FORCED out of their jobs into an early retirement. A few of them were caught off guard and are now renting out rooms in their house as a bed and breakfast to earn extra cash. The others managed to relocate or transition into lower paying jobs. These guys are between 52 and 55 years old.
They would still have another good 10 to 15 years to work in a "normal" situation.
Honestly to have to deal with BEE and now age-ism on top of it all. Is it really worth even thinking of going back, even if the country is stunningly beautiful with great weather.
Without a job you're pretty much worthless, except maybe in a socialist country.


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## MissGlobal (Aug 4, 2012)

I've lived in SA for 7 years and then moved to the US for college. I'm in the process of moving back in a month - and I'm very aware of some of these pros and cons. 

I don't want to downplay crime in Sa - because there's a lot of violence - but I also feel like in my years of living in the US - there's the same type of wild crime. I lived in Baltimore - where the cost of living was twice what I'm paying now. I'd pay $1400 a month for an apartment that was in a safer area because the odds of getting hit by stray bullets was low. I remember the nightly news used to keep a tally of the number of murders in the city for the year - and the mayor was always promising not to let the death toll go over 300 or some crazy number . So I moved - and I moved down south ( Georgia ) - where it isn't that bad - but there are still home invasions , thefts, etc. 

I got fed up with trying to balance work and home, so I started a company. I work in IT and I telecommute - so for our transition, I'll be able to maintain my US income while working in SA. I do feel like SA and specifically Cape Town can provide my family with a better quality of life. Life is simply hard in the united states. It's an unending rat race on a treadmill that you can't get off of. As for quality of education - well as long as you can put your kids in private school - or pay tons of money to live in the few good public school districts, then you have options. But wait - I have to get back on the treadmill and work even harder to ensure that! So I'm kind of expecting to have to do the same thing in SA to get my kids the kind of education I want them to have. 

Here are a few things I just have issues with here in the US : 

1 - The $1500 a month in health insurance we pay
2 - The $1600 a month in child care services I have to pay for 
3 - The fact that the 1500 doesn't include all the other health insurances ( Dental, vision, etc) 
The state of the economy ( not that I think SA's will be much better ) . But I live in a Right-To-Fire state that has very little in the way of protective labor laws. 

And I don't hate living in the USA - I just want a more relaxed lifestyle. I want to live near the ocean - and not to have to kill myself to be able to afford to do so. I want to have family support. I want to enjoy braai's and a much more social community. So for me - it's worth moving back - because I honestly believe that if I live the rest of my working days in the US - I'll die from stress.


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## DannyBoy (Apr 29, 2009)

"Life is simply hard in the united states. It's an unending rat race on a treadmill that you can't get off of."

MissGlobal, that's exactly my experience, and I don't see it improving. I'm hoping to head back to S.A in April, Quite honestly I'm prepared to work anywhere in S.A where I can find a job.
I know it's going to be tough initially though.


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## vegasboy (Apr 28, 2010)

I would give it a lot of thought before I'd move back. I spend time both in Florida US where my second home is and Cape Town SA. I just returned from a induction session for new neighborhood watch members in Cape Town . I live in what was always an upmarket safe area in the northern suburbs of Cape Town.

Crime is out of hand here. A few years ago, there was no need even for a security fence. We are so plagued by crime now that I recently had to upgrade our security system: Spikes, electric fencing, alarm upgrade, steel enclosure at front porch, gate beam siren, new gate motor, new intercom & video system, new smart card keypads, trelllidoors throughout (waiting for installation), potent tasers, panic buttons throughout house, Tipx gun with lethal ceramic balls and US Army imported pepper balls, walkie talkie network with about 50 other houses in my community which are linked with each other and with our control room and all armed responses and SAPS sector vehicle. We all patrol our community day and night.

If this is how you envisage your life to be, be my guest.

66% of the South African population fear police officials and don't trust them. Carte Blanche last night showed horrific interviews of victims of police brutality, hijacking by police with police cars and officers in uniform. Only in Gauteng province more than 630 police officers were arrested in 2011, mainly on charges of fraud and corruption, but also for rape and murder, according to recent statistics.

This is NOT a place where you would want to raise a child. I spend a lot of time in the US (my son also lives there) and comparing crime in the US as a whole to SA is like comparing apples with manure.

The fact that you have resident status or citizenship in the US or any other country should be enough for you to thank the good Lord for.  Please think twice before moving back.  You may not like my response, but it is an honest and unbiased response.


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## DannyBoy (Apr 29, 2009)

Thanks Vegasboy for the info.
For me this is really a tough decision which I have been struggling with for years.
Like MissGlobal, I am burned out from the U.S job demands. It is indeed like being a hamster stuck on a wheel. In my personal experience in the U.S, one can never kick back and relax.
There is no network to protect you if you lose a job and the Unemployment Pay stops. Becoming Homeless is a real reality for me in America. I have had downtime in the I.T industry from 3 months to as long as 8 months. I tried other jobs, but those jobs were short term and did not pay a living wage. I would have to drop completely out of the middle class doing those jobs, which at this point are also very scarce due to the "Greatest Recession" since the "World Depression" in 1929.
I have been out of S.A since 1993, and when I visit my family, I imagine that "maybe it's not so bad, maybe it'll work out", because I don't see the stuff that you see actually living there.
I am having incredible doubts and sleepless nights about returning to S.A., but it's not that great here in the Carolinas either. We heard today that layoffs are coming again at the end of December. 
A very tough situation. It must have taken tremendous courage for the folks who went back to S.A to do what they did. The stress level must have been through the stratosphere.


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## Greytop (Nov 5, 2011)

I would say with three children also consider the future very very carefully. Life cannot go on there as it is now there are going to many changes for the worse, because of all the inequalities still.
I lived there before 1994 and when I go back every year all I notice is that very little has changed for the average black person. All I notice is a few more richer blacks and very many more poorer whites.
This condition cannot go on forever !!!
Just think of Zimbabwe and everwhere else in Africa for that matter.


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## MissGlobal (Aug 4, 2012)

I thought I'd drop in and give an update. Well we've moved and are living in Cape Town. One benefit for us is that my parents live here in an upmarket area, so we're staying at their house. In fact it feels kind of weird staying in my old bedroom!

Yes we have high walls, and electrified fences, alarm systems and the whole bag of security goodies. I'm about 5 -6 weeks into our move and so far so good. We're actually beginning the hunt for a place to stay. We've been debating whether we should try to live in a secure estate or just live in a good neighborhood and pay for the additional security necessities. 

A note to vegasboy - I know you mentioned I should be happy that I have citizenship in the US as well, but I have always joked that it's good I have dual citizenship in case things go belly up in the US lol. I find that many disgruntled South Africans who have emigrated talk about how horrible things are here. They paint a picture of living in the Western world as so much more civilized. I think a painful reality of the developed world is that we aren't really safe anywhere. This is no more evident than the sheer number of random shootings in public places that have been happening in the US. Connecticut being the latest - with the gunman who forced his way into an elementary school and shot every person and child he could before killing himself.

My reality in the US is that in my nice suburban home with 4 bedrooms, 2 car garage, large backyard, and all the nice creature comforts, I always had my alarm system on. We wouldn't dare rely on police patrols as our primary safety. Almost all of my neighbors were armed. We didn't go to bed expecting to get robbed, but we were very aware of the armed home invasions that happened in our city thanks to the news coverage. We did our best to ensure our security but it kind of is what it is. I would never walk anywhere alone at night as a woman - and I rarely liked to drive alone at night. I stayed very aware of my surroundings and any shady characters.

SA has violent crimes, but they are more localized in lower income areas. I'm not saying that is good or bad, but I won't be living anywhere near those areas. We'll use common sense and awareness regarding our safety.

I don't want to downplay the magnitude of the rat race in the United States. Until you've experienced it, it's hard to understand why someone would leave because of it. I'll take my chances and work on securing financial stability such that if things go belly up in either place, I have a country to run to.


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## nkiera (Apr 21, 2013)

vegasboy said:


> I would give it a lot of thought before I'd move back. I spend time both in Florida US where my second home is and Cape Town SA. I just returned from a induction session for new neighborhood watch members in Cape Town . I live in what was always an upmarket safe area in the northern suburbs of Cape Town.
> 
> Crime is out of hand here. A few years ago, there was no need even for a security fence. We are so plagued by crime now that I recently had to upgrade our security system: Spikes, electric fencing, alarm upgrade, steel enclosure at front porch, gate beam siren, new gate motor, new intercom & video system, new smart card keypads, trelllidoors throughout (waiting for installation), potent tasers, panic buttons throughout house, Tipx gun with lethal ceramic balls and US Army imported pepper balls, walkie talkie network with about 50 other houses in my community which are linked with each other and with our control room and all armed responses and SAPS sector vehicle. We all patrol our community day and night.
> 
> ...


Oh my God just seen this post

I thought Capetown seemed to be the safer option as a place to move to. My friends live in the Northern Suburbs of Capetown near you obviously but their life appears to be vastly different to yours. They have a gate and beams they use on a night and thats it ..no walkie talkies or panic buttons, no patrols other than an ADT man. I never felt unsafe in the three weeks living in their house. I left doors unlocked when i sat in the garden we sat out on a night we drove drove into Cape town for meals out on an evening. We didn't see a single spike on any house in their area. What is it I am missing? Are my friends less anxious or oblivious? The rest of the area they live in is the same..no gated communities just houses with electric gates and lots of people out biking walking, jogging, shopping etc

Please can someone tell me if they know the answer to this please?

nkiera


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## Jem62 (Jul 25, 2012)

Before I left the UK I had an online subscription to the Cape Argus for a year, in fact I've continued reading it online. I can truly not remember when last I've read about a murder in an upmarket suburban area of CT. There are people who can live their lives completely petrified by crime they are never ever likely to experience. Most crime in CT are in the township areas and are fuelled by alcohol and drug dealing. In fact the Democratic Alliance did an analysis of morgue records over the past five years and have concluded that over 80% of murders are alcohol related. So if you don't get drunk over weekends in a township, you will be very safe. Sure, pre-cautions needs to be taken related to home security but this is true for all societies were the income differences are large e.g Brazil. Don't be spooked by paranoid people, I have a large extended family with an even larger friendship circle, in twenty years, apart from a couple of burglaries, nothing has happened to them. CT has an enormous quality of life, every year 7000 UK pensioners make SA their home. You won't regret a move to CT, life is short, get going.


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## DannyBoy (Apr 29, 2009)

nkiera said:


> Oh my God just seen this post
> 
> I thought Capetown seemed to be the safer option as a place to move to. My friends live in the Northern Suburbs of Capetown near you obviously but their life appears to be vastly different to yours. They have a gate and beams they use on a night and thats it ..no walkie talkies or panic buttons, no patrols other than an ADT man. I never felt unsafe in the three weeks living in their house. I left doors unlocked when i sat in the garden we sat out on a night we drove drove into Cape town for meals out on an evening. We didn't see a single spike on any house in their area. What is it I am missing? Are my friends less anxious or oblivious? The rest of the area they live in is the same..no gated communities just houses with electric gates and lots of people out biking walking, jogging, shopping etc
> 
> ...


Go and take a look on the web at "Pinelands 531 - Crime and Safety updates" or
try find a website for a neighbourhood watch near where you plan to stay (Blouberg also has one). You can get a day by day review of all the crime that goes on in those areas. I was surprised at the amount of crime in Pinelands which is a very nice area. Cars broken into, cars stolen, houses burglarised, a granny attacked..all in one day.


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## nkiera (Apr 21, 2013)

Jem62 & Dannyboy

thank you both for your replies.

I feel a little more at ease about making my decision which incidentally is looking like it may be up to 3 years before we canto Cape Town so a lot can change in that time. We are still starting the process though as it appears it can take up to 3 years to sort it all out!!

Kind Regards
nkiera


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## DannyBoy (Apr 29, 2009)

nkiera said:


> Jem62 & Dannyboy
> 
> thank you both for your replies.
> 
> ...


Hello Nkiera,

if you still have 3 years to decide, why don't you try take a month vacation in S.A, and really try see Cape Town from the point of view of someone who lives there rather than as a tourist.
Spend the first week doing all the touristy stuff and then spend the next few weeks going to the City at peak hour (like 8 am) as you would when you live there.
Do shopping for groceries on a Saturday morning, read the Cape Argus and Sunday Times, watch the news, listen to Radio 5 and Radio 702, go to parks, movies etc.
and really PAY ATTENTION to how you get treated by tellers, bank clerks, people on the train or bus etc.
Then and only then make your decision.


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## jonny2mad (Apr 29, 2013)

Less than 2 years ago genocidewatch put south africa on level six thats preperation for genocide they have brought it down to 5, 7 is where they mass murder you .

counter to that you have a nice climate


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## MissGlobal (Aug 4, 2012)

nkiera said:


> Oh my God just seen this post
> 
> I thought Capetown seemed to be the safer option as a place to move to. My friends live in the Northern Suburbs of Capetown near you obviously but their life appears to be vastly different to yours. They have a gate and beams they use on a night and thats it ..no walkie talkies or panic buttons, no patrols other than an ADT man. I never felt unsafe in the three weeks living in their house. I left doors unlocked when i sat in the garden we sat out on a night we drove drove into Cape town for meals out on an evening. We didn't see a single spike on any house in their area. What is it I am missing? Are my friends less anxious or oblivious? The rest of the area they live in is the same..no gated communities just houses with electric gates and lots of people out biking walking, jogging, shopping etc
> 
> ...


Your friends may just be oblivious to how things really are. It's not likely that you will get robbed - but you may not like what happens when you do get robbed. My parents live in Blouberg and about 5 years ago were attacked by armed robbers. Fortunately no one died but my dad was shot in the arm. Leaving your home unsecured is a mistake no matter where in the world you live - and especially in south africa...


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## jamesjones (Oct 30, 2013)

Does Anyone know if you can work beyond the 20 hours a week if it is voluntary in terms of a study Visa?

Many thanks =)


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## WelshSA20 (Oct 31, 2013)

Hi MissGlobal.

Hope you are well and fully settled into your new surroundings. I was curious to know how things have progressed with you? If you dont mind me asking.
A little bout myself. I have living and working in the UK for 9 years and married to a British Citizen. I have Dual Citizenship and have what is considered by most a good life in the UK. However for the past few months I have had this burning desire to return to SA. I have two other friends who have decided to up stakes and leave the UK and move back to SA and are both very happy. One is in JHB and the other in CPT. 

My question to you is: How are you finding life in SA? What are the significant challenges? And of course as always, how have you found the crime. 

In terms of work, I THINK I would be able to find work but not holding out on it but we wont be dependent on my salary but I do need to find work. My husband and I have managed to get on the property ladder in 'the good times' and have managed to build up quite a good property portfolio of properties so we will always have pounds coming in.
I am trying to convince my daughter and husband that the move will be good for us but they are yet to be convinced. 

Many people think I am crazy for even thinking of moving back, but to be honest I am tired of the lifestyle of just going to work, coming home to a nice house and that's it. I dont feel as though I have really made any meaningful connections here. Perhaps my own fault but I find it difficult to really connect with SOME brits. It's a different kind of friendship. Not that it isn't special, it's just different. South Africans, in my experience are so much more open and honest. Well at least that has been my experience. 

Our lives here has not exactly been crime free. Granted it wasnt violent crime but a lot of anti social behaviour and theft.

I hope you can shed some light


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## LegalMan (Dec 26, 2012)

Today at a function where the Minister of Home Affairs, Naledi Pandor, also spoke, a top professor from the University of Cape Town quoted that 370,000 qualified South Africans have returned since 2009.

The grass isn't always greener. It's just what you make of it.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

LegalMan said:


> Today at a function where the Minister of Home Affairs, Naledi Pandor, also spoke, a top professor from the University of Cape Town quoted that 370,000 qualified South Africans have returned since 2009.
> 
> The grass isn't always greener. It's just what you make of it.


Now if Customs and Immigration said of the less bums on seats between the 96 and 2011 cesus figures, 370,000 SA Passports had returned I might start believing.
Naledi Pandor is a politician and the only way to know when a Politician is telling the truth (in any Country) is when the lips dont move.

as to the grass is'nt greener, I can assure you, in Ireland it is, and there's a reason its greener, check our weather  but I do agree with you, it IS what you make of it.


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## MissGlobal (Aug 4, 2012)

Hi Welsh , I realize this is literally a whole page of text haha! Hopefully this answers your questions:

I’d be MORE than happy to provide an update. So we moved back in about December last year. We’re no longer staying with my parents ( THANK GOODNESS!). We are living in a secure estate which has armed patrols every hour. I know it sounds crazy – but honestly when I thought about it – I have a 2 year old – and I’d rather sleep a little better at night. My husband and I are working from home ( still for our US clients). I’m also consulting with a company here in Cape Town. We have a rhythm going – so it’s not bad – but I do know we won’t be staying here for the long haul. 

*The Pros : *
We are renting a house with an awesome ocean view. We have a housekeeper / nanny so that’s a plus. I got my kid into a decent early education program – so there’s that too! Since we work from home – we definitely have a slower pace of life. I do enjoy the social aspects of cape town. We visit the parks, indulge in great restaurants, and get to go to the beach nearly daily.

We have an awesome setup. We work from home, we live near the beach, and we have enough money to live comfortably.


*The Cons : *

It’s INSANELY cold in the winter – since it’s not insulated. In fact – it’s insane how much money we’re spending on electricity heating it in the winter. This is worse than any snowy winters back in the US.

I have a few more cons – but I think my perspective section below explains it more.



*Just My Perspective About Wanting to Leave*
So this will be hard to explain but I have many reasons for wanting to leave in a year or so. I have always known about the income divide here between the have’s and have nots. By the books – we’re definitely in the ‘Have’ category – but I don’t feel like a Have. So it feels very surreal to be so wealthy compared to the average person. As a result , we feel generally uncomfortable. I also don’t know if I want my daughter growing up being part of an elite portion of society. The thing that’s so crazy about this is – we are not rich. So I’m not feeling like – oh we’re so rich and we’re above – but we experience lots of awkward moments. I kind of feel like we’re holding back who we are so we don’t stand out in our social circle …. 

The second is money. I don’t doubt that we can earn a living here – but it won’t scratch what we were making in the states. Even with consulting – what I can get on the highest tier here is still just 80% of my base asking rate in the States. So there’s also that. And this wouldn’t be an issue if the cost of living was lower here – but it really isn’t. Only labor is cheap – but everything else feels far more expensive than the states. 

The third is the state of medical care. Although we can afford to go to private hospitals ( and do so) – I realize there’s a tendency to diagnose from visual inspection and almost always prescribe antibiotics. It’s left me very suspicious of my physicians here. Being a mom, my little one has gotten sick quite a bit – and I’ve been disgusted with the sheer amount of medication they prescribe every time I take her in. I’m even more disgusted because most of the time they just look at her – and then prescribe 6 things without even running a single test to confirm if she even has a bacterial infection. I have my own health issues, and given the past experiences this year, I wouldn’t trust my health to physicians here.

The fourth is social. After a year – I realize I really do miss the assertiveness of the US. I miss the hunger and drive that people have. I’ve been doing quite a bit to get out socially and meet people – but I’ve met so few people I feel like I could really connect with. This is more me than saying there’s something wrong here. I just realize that I’m a certain way and I might just be a bad fit for this environment. I’m very uninspired here… 

There's also a lot of racial anger here. Being black, I find that other Africans are very angry and tend to have racist perspectives. I've sort of prided myself on my ability not to define my world on racial lines but I'm feeling like a serious minority !

The fifth is politics. I’m black so I should be so pro-ANC but I watch the news and follow the stories and it is just dismaying. It’s a very unpopular attitude for me to have and to share – but that’s pretty much how I feel. I know politicians are evil and they steal – but I find in SA – they don’t even pretend.

The sixth is crime – and the reality is I just never really feel safe. I hate that when I hear bumps in the night – I really think it could be something more sinister. I hate having panic buttons and thinking I might actually need them. And although we have armed response ( who patrols wearing body armor) – it doesn’t make me feel any better. 

The seventh – The internet aka Telkom – and literally – that’s all I need to say. Telkom’s monopoly and their sub-par service is literally phenomenal!

The eighth– quality of service and products – which is wildly inconsistent and a constant source of irritation for us.

*Final Thoughts: *
I’m not ripping on SA and saying it’s bad. I’m not even saying the USA is better. We’re actually in the process of preparing to buy property out here. I think that after a year – I just realize that this is better for us in smaller dose. Although we’ve been able to get away from the grind in the states, we’ve inherited a series of challenges here ( As expected). When we tally them up – we’d rather be grinding in the states and vacationing here.

Ultimately when folk ask me to compare – I tell them that one fundamental difference is that in the States – things work. Services are consistent and you can rely on public services. That’s not the case here. The cost of living is higher for labor intensive things in the US, but the base comfort levels are higher in the States. It’s a harder grind I think in the US but the rewards are better too….

My time here has made me realize what was wrong with my perspective in life. It’s made me realize how I need to take control of my pace of life and guard it.


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## MissGlobal (Aug 4, 2012)

LegalMan said:


> Today at a function where the Minister of Home Affairs, Naledi Pandor, also spoke, a top professor from the University of Cape Town quoted that 370,000 qualified South Africans have returned since 2009.
> 
> The grass isn't always greener. It's just what you make of it.




I thought I'd share : 200 of SA - 200 of SA’s trained medical specialists ‘disappear’ per year


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## LegalMan (Dec 26, 2012)

All over the world, there is a skills shortage, in every single country. To my mind, keeping 400 out of 600 medical professionals is a massive win - thanks for the post!

An to the other 200, I hope they didn't "disappear", but rather emigrated somewhere.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Legalman, I'm curious,Your business is to assist people to immigrate to SA? and preferably to return as the strongest selling point to expat South Africans is family?

would that not mean that you need to put SA and the Status Quo in the best possible light ala Homecoming Revolution?

I have no axe to grind, its in my interest that as many skilled people as possible move to/return to SA to prop up what I see as a failing Country, one in which my Mother and siblings still reside as they cannot leave.
This argument about how many have left and how many return is actually the easiest one to answer.
By Law, all South African Passport Holders MUST enter and leave on a SA Passport, irrespective of how many other Nationalities you hold.

Those passports are scanned or typed into the Mainframe Connection at every Customs desk, and at any one time,someone can print a report of EXACTLY how many SA passports have left and how many have returned.

That information dates back to 1969.
Its top secret, you cannot access it,
all you can do is is check the Census figures, adjust for birth rate and mortality rate and guess.
Bit Silly, dont you think? The strongest draw card for any Expat South African is that he is missing out on something? that others are going back in droves, that safety and job security are "normal" and there is a future for their kids.


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## LegalMan (Dec 26, 2012)

I don't know, but that's an interesting point. What I do know is that regardless of our immigration service, I love South Africa and always have, and it is by no means a failing country.

What I also know and see far more than most others is that online there are those who will support SA and those who won't. And those who won't go to extraordinary lengths to try and crush SA as best they can, very often with incorrect data and with the same idiocy as many media reports.

And that is simply sickening. South Africa has problems, no doubt, but every country does. There is every need to educate the rest of the world about a country, factually and objectively. There is no need to unreasonably slate any country because of your own personal issues.


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## shumifan49 (Sep 18, 2013)

I have been living in the UK for the last 23 years. It is a nice country with most things working quite well; e.g. mail takes 24 hours to be delivered, making online shopping a breeze. Having said that, the state is now embarking on meddling in everyday life; taxing sugary foods, restricting many things and I think it is because they have nothing else to do.
I intend moving back to RSA to retire. Main attractions are the weather and family/friends.

So when you make these decisions it is a trade-off. In my case I decided that the security is the main downside and I will learn to live with it and adjust my living patterns to minimise the risks. The reward is much less grey skies and family and friends close.

So each have to decide for themselves, preferably after having spent some time in RSA, with a view to move there(different from just holidaying).


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

LegalMan said:


> I don't know, but that's an interesting point. What I do know is that regardless of our immigration service, I love South Africa and always have, and it is by no means a failing country.
> 
> What I also know and see far more than most others is that online there are those who will support SA and those who won't. And those who won't go to extraordinary lengths to try and crush SA as best they can, very often with incorrect data and with the same idiocy as many media reports.
> 
> And that is simply sickening. South Africa has problems, no doubt, but every country does. There is every need to educate the rest of the world about a country, factually and objectively. There is no need to unreasonably slate any country because of your own personal issues.


I too love the land of my birth and its usually the first phallacy thrown at anyone who criticises South Africa's path AND has left, that we must hate SA, 
That is incorrect.
The next accusation is usually that if I criticise the endemic corruption,the falling standards, the drop in education and the unacceptable levels of violent crime and failure of the judicial system, I MUST be trying to justify why I left...

Those are valid criticism, would'nt you say?
I have no problem with people trying to educate the World iro of the beauty of SA, I do have a problem with people having a knee jerk reaction to valid criticism and shooting the messenger


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## shumifan49 (Sep 18, 2013)

@DaxK:

I will give you security as a problem.

Corruption: Look at the first world, UK specifically; MP expenses scandals, LIBOR manipulation, Exchange rate manipulation, bad banks needing bailout, Phone hacking, officials paid for stories, vote rigging by the unions, and so the list goes on. The difference is in the reporting.

Education. We dont do too well here in the UK when you look at literacy/maths league tables.

And we have had centuries in Europe to develop. Give RSA a chance and most importantly time.

I dont even want to go into the USA: Illegal wars, illegal surveilance and crime is not too great either.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Shumifan, absolutely valid iro of the UK and probably the USA too.
Its to each his own and each persons needs are different, if I did not have a child, specifically, a teenage daughter, I would probably still be back in SA.
However, let me look at things on a personal basis vis a vis my lifestyle.
Where you live in SA dictates your lifestyle and freedom,smaller Coastal towns along the garden Route or Natal have less violent crime so when I did my Quo Vadis analysis back in 2004, moving there was one of my options.
It still removed me from the proximity of my aging parents and the exposure to their grand daughter.
Hence I looked at overseas and having lived here for 10 years let me do a pro and con vs SA based on living in both.
I am 63, my wife is 54 my daughter is 14.

Business wise, in SA I would HAVE to live in Johannesburg area whereas here I was able to build a couple of small businesses out in the "Sticks"
My Home in SA and my home here are pretty similar in size, 4 bed 4 bath, large property but here I do not have the constant vigilance.
I live on the corner of a 25 acre farm with a trout stream running through the property, surrounded by Forests and walks and castles and ruins that we thoroughly enjoy even tho we have to have an umbrella.
In Midrand, where I lived since 1979, I could go for walks in my suburb in the daytime and the local Park but tended to have to drive everywhere to go for a safe secure. walk.

Living expenses are much higher in SA with the exception of petrol/diesel and electricity, a online shop apples with apples Pick n Pay vs Tesco is within a few Rands of each other.
but then add in Security an Medical aid costs that you HAVE to have in SA then SA is way more expensive.
( I know the UK NHS is bad, I am comparing it to Ireland where I have had excellent service from the equivalent)

Freedom? my teenage daughter catches buses and trains to town, movies, shopping etc, she and her friendds walk and ride bicycles throughout the entire area, the Schoolbus picks her up at the gate and drops her back there, even tho we live "Rural" ie 10 minutes from the school.
Her high school fees at a a top 100 Private school are ZAR3500 a year and textbooks are on par with what friends spend at Crawford College. 
when she goes to Uni her choice of degree will be based on her performance, not on wether she is in the top 9% of her race group.
That is unlikely to change within 20 years in SA.

when she gets a bit older and starts dating boys with motor cars, I will, as a father, fear drinking and driving, car accidents and broken hearts EXACTLY as I would in any Country, but in SA, there is the additional fear of Hi-Jacking, especially at the front gate.
That is an unacceptable additional risk.

The only benefits SA offer me is Family,weather and game, my mother is 83, I am 63
its an overnight flight as opposed to 5 hours from CT and 3 hours from Durban,as to Game when you have seen one Kudu Backside how many more do you wish to see?


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## MissGlobal (Aug 4, 2012)

I hope I didn't spawn a "slam SA" thread with my response. Every country has its issues. I had very specific reasons for leaving the US - and they were generally not positive reasons. I don't hate it here in SA - I just ultimately feel like it's not "right" for us full time. The biggest concern for me is my medical care - which I'm not confident I can replicate here. I require fertility specialists and high risk pregnancy specialists and there just aren't enough to choose from here. Then after that there's the whole social component - which I severely underestimated - but you never know until you experience it. Ultimately life is about change - and I realize that my future vision for us in SA is just a little different than what I initially thought. We've already started a business here and have clients, and we are looking to buy property. We will be traveling back and forth here at the end of the day.

For those who say SA is going to hell - I am still not a believer in that. Things are definitely harder now than they were before - but SA was in a bubble before 1994 - and only a few people had access to services. Now that everything is on a much larger scale - there are some clear growing pains as the new economy shakes out. Everyone's situation will be different and those differences will be the determining factor as to whether SA is right for you or not.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Miss Global,I dont think its a slam SA situation either, neither is it a rosy Rah Rah all is well...
the Western Cape is a small unique " Bubble", SA is going through Birthing pains and I personally doubt that its going to sort itself out in under three generations.
I was lucky in that not only did I live through the unfair period, but also the Democratic period, I have also experienced African Countries that got their independence in the 60's and 70's ,
we each have our own opinions.


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## MissGlobal (Aug 4, 2012)

You are so right about the western cape !! I tell people that the western cape isn't like the rest of the country! This is also the ONLY part of SA that I could commit to live in...


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## shumifan49 (Sep 18, 2013)

I think it is a bit rich commenting on dangers in South Africa from Ireland that still sponsors war against the UK over Nothern Ireland and where Protestants and Catholics cannot live together in peace. And this has been going on for 100s of years and is still not resolved. So give South Africa the benefit of time to stabilise and sort out its affairs.

Personal attacks are defendable/avoidable by being carefull; car bombs are not.

I was on a business trip to Belfast and missed a car bomb attack on the hotel I was to stay in by 24 hours. It was a bit of a wakeup call. I still stayed in the remains of the hotel as I figured they will not bomb the same hotel again.

Without justifying crime in SA, it is mostly motivated by money. In Ireland it is motivated by sectarian hatred and in the USA you cannot know that your children are safe in school as the school might be attacked by a gunman or you yourself might get mowed down in shopping mall.

Areas in the USA are as dangerous as areas in SA and areas in SA are as safe as the USA/Ireland. It all depends on being sensible. 

Participation in sport is limited and expensive in the UK, which is why we suffer from obese children and adults. Outdoor life in SA is the norm and consequently promotes a healthier lifestyle.

I left 23 years ago as I thought it would go the same way as Africa to the north, but it did not and I now have hopes that it will improve once the ANC loses its overwhelming power and a more balanced government, without the leftovers of the freedom struggle, gets installed.

I once again say that it is a matter of pros and cons for each individual, but if all the skilled people leave, it will destroy SA.

As far as cost of living is concerned:
I have a £600 000 house in South-East with 4 bedrooms. 3baths and 2 receptions. No pool, no jacuzzi and huge heating bills. I can buy a 5 bed, 4 reception, 3 bath with a pool and jacuzzi in a nice area on the West Rand for £120 000 - hardly comparable. Rates and taxes is a fraction of council tax. Gas and electricity is still vastly more expensive here in the UK. Food is approaching parity.

My last comment: If you live in the UK then you have to be within commuting distance from London if you want a reasonable quality of life as the jobs are in the SouthEast. And then you cant let your children go roaming the countryside as recent crimes demonstrate.


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## MissGlobal (Aug 4, 2012)

Shumi - You actually need serious resources to avoid crime in SA. You need resources to live in low crime areas. As for the healthier lifestyle - childhood obesity is actually a problem in South Africa.... and there is far more associated with childhood obesity than just an inability to participate in sports. After all - running is free.... I can't speak for how much life costs in the UK but I do get the general feeling that the cost of living is crazy in europe. 

On a funny note - it costs me more to heat the house that I'm renting here than it ever did in the USA! Especially because power is charged on a tiered scale here - the more you use the more you pay per unit. This is to offset the many who cannot afford to pay for power. My internet bill is twice what it is in the states, and my cell phone bill is also higher - despite the fact that I don't speak nearly as much as I used to. Groceries are no cheaper either. Cars are also much more expensive than in the states - often close to twice the price. Fuel is more expensive - but I suspect fuel is expensive in Europe. It seems only the US has cheap fuel because they are willing to go to war to get it **chuckle** FInally - house prices - I find them comparable to higher here. Especially because if you have money - you can't afford to live in lower income areas because of safety concerns.... And the property values in low crime areas here are extremely inflated.

I actually feel that it's probably better to be poor in the USA than to be poor in SA. Your standard of living would be higher. SA has many great benefits but they are primarily available to those with resources. I kind of feel like this is the root of the issue. And it's not as simple as just redistributing wealth - because there's an entire population within SA that needs the means to make a better living and are being screwed at every turn....


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

shumifan49 said:


> I think it is a bit rich commenting on dangers in South Africa from Ireland that still sponsors war against the UK over Nothern Ireland and where Protestants and Catholics cannot live together in peace. And this has been going on for 100s of years and is still not resolved. So give South Africa the benefit of time to stabilise and sort out its affairs.
> 
> Personal attacks are defendable/avoidable by being carefull; car bombs are not.
> 
> ...



Shumifan, please dont take this as an attack on you or your opinions, its not meant to be.

Ireland is divided in two parts, the North which falls under the UK and essentially went into Ceasefire mode from the Civil War you refer to, 18 years ago.
And the South, the Republic of Ireland, which is where I live, which was basically unaffected by sectarian violence such as you describe and te Protestants and Catholics (and I gather even Muslims0 seem to live and work and play and even drink a few pints happily side by side down here.

Its a different Country.:gossip:

Comparisons to Different Countries? you cannot compare SA to the USA as not the whole USA is like Detroit, just as the whole of SA is not like Hillbrow.
I thought I had covered that by saying going to ilive in smaller places such as along the Garden Route is certainly a lot different (and safer) than living in the big cities.

As to the UK, there are very valid reasons I chose Ireland (Republic of) over the UK, even though the weather patterns are similar, the major obne is people, there are more people living in JHBG than in the whole of Ireland whose population is 4.5 million, and I was comparing MY LIFE in Ireland with MY Life in SA... as I have lived in both.specifically, Midrand SA.

Yes, I agree with you that House prices are far more in the UK and most other places than SA,Houses are cheap there. What are the Mortgage repayments Interest rates?
I mentioned I live in a similar sized house in Ireland to my primary house in SA which is rented out.
what I get in is what iy costs me.
Ireland has no Rates, no water or sewerage costs where I live at present although they are trying to bring that in
I pay ZAR3500 a year here for refuse removal, my electricity cost is ZAR1500 a month and I spend ZAR7000 a year on heating oil, my house here is insulated and double glazed and is very warm even though its 2000 sq m .
I live 10 minutes from the School, 30 minutes from a Town the size of Port Elizabeth, an hour from Shannon International Airport and two hours from Dublin International and the last murder was headline News for a week and on TV 6 months ago.

Now, a small (dangerous) Fallacy you need to understand,being careful does reduce your chances of violent crime, but as you wont know if you are making a mistake and creating an opportunity until someone notices it and takes advantage of it, is no guarantee that you will be safe.
Agreed, there is also no guarantee that You WILL be a victim of crime either, but you can be as careful as you like, if someone decides you have something they want, and they think they can get away with it, it will happen.
Thats the price you pay.
It might be the same in the UK, or Michigan or even Dublin, 
thats why I dont live there.
In Ireland (Rep of) the kids do wander around on their own, go to movies and town on their own, its not totally safe, no place ever is, but purely the crime stats for the Country says its a lot less likely than ANY place in SA.

South Africa's future and the skills departure?
SA needs the departed skills,will it collapse without them? I doubt it,
will it prosper? I hope so.
will the skills return? nope, not as long as the Primary reasons people left in the first place are unchanged, and with 65% of the Under 25's unemployed and mostly unemployable means Crime, especially as 50% of SA's population is under 25 , aint going to go down.
The Ruling Govt will remain in power as despite anything they may do, the vast majority will continue to vote for them because thats the way it is.
so the Glass ceilings that drove the Skills away are not changing,
The manufacturing base is being eroded, the resource sectors are becoming unprofitable and with the New Mining Charter no one is undertaking greenfields Investment except the Chinese, and hat may well be a double edged sword.

Having said all that, I am grateful, Shumifan, that you are going back, to hopefully make a difference, I am grateful for all the "imported"skills going to SA, I wish them a happy, safe and productive life there, they are needed.
and if more South Africans choose to go back, I am grateful too.

I'm just not prepared to raise my daughter there.


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## LegalMan (Dec 26, 2012)

@mikefint is totally correct, moving foreign currency in and out is a nightmare since South Africa still has exchange control (not only on funds, but on some IP too).


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Legalman, why are they so strict iro of taking money out of SA?


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## shumifan49 (Sep 18, 2013)

Exchange control is a double edged sword. It tries to keep capital flow out of the country as low as possible and hopefully increases local investment and keeps the balance of payments manageable. That is the 'up side'.

The downside is that it makes people reluctant to bring money into the country, as per LegalMan's comment.

Unrestricted flow of money creates a situation, as now exists in the UK: Most companies are foreign owned and registered in tax havens reducing the tax revenues the treasury gets. So multi-nationals make millions of pounds profit in the UK and pay no (or very little) UK tax.

I am no big fan of regulation, but there has to be some level of regulation otherwise we will keep having these financial disasters and manipulation of key market instruments.



It is regulation that reduced the affects of the financial collapse on the RSA.

@Daxk:
I am well aware the Rep of Ireland is not Nothern Ireland. The future there is that Nothern Ireland will eventually become part of the republic(as it should be teritorially) and then you will have the loyalists having a go at the RoI. It is a no-win situation until some form of peace can be brokered and that is not on the cards while you have extremists on both sides.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Shumifan?
I'm curious,what does NI's 5 Counties finally getting home rule have to do with my living in Galway? ROI is 26 Counties, NI is 5, we are a true Democracy here,
what exactly does that have to do with SA? or do you think my daily job is a rear gunner in a Bakers Van?


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## 2fargone (Jun 14, 2011)

MissGlobal said:


> Hi Welsh , I realize this is literally a whole page of text haha! Hopefully this answers your questions:
> 
> I’d be MORE than happy to provide an update. So we moved back in about December last year. We’re no longer staying with my parents ( THANK GOODNESS!). We are living in a secure estate which has armed patrols every hour. I know it sounds crazy – but honestly when I thought about it – I have a 2 year old – and I’d rather sleep a little better at night. My husband and I are working from home ( still for our US clients). I’m also consulting with a company here in Cape Town. We have a rhythm going – so it’s not bad – but I do know we won’t be staying here for the long haul.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you said MissGlobal.

With the aspect to money. My profession is very in demand in the USA, and it's very well paid. But, in S.A. I would be living on air. 

With the medical issues I have I feel my health has been tested here. I have several medical conditions. When I first came I had to go to 3 doctors before one of them had even heard of my medical conditions for which I have to take daily medication for. I feel I have to be my own doctor and advocate and have not been entirely happy with the care.

I was trying to explain a difference to a friend and I feel like everything in South Africa is an issue or it's going to be a hassle to get done.


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## shumifan49 (Sep 18, 2013)

@MissGlobal:

For historic reasons that we ll know there are 2 average incomes in RSA. Depending on who you mix with will determine where in the income scale you fit. Unfortunately, as you say, there is still a level of racial seperation that makes the mixing of black and white friends difficult. I recognised this before I left 23 years ago and put my daughter in a private school that allowed any colour/creed, to expose her to a broader range of people. This stood her in good stead here in the UK.

"It's insanely cold in winter: There are 2 problems. Capetown is a much colder climate than Jo'burg and central heating/double glazing is still the exception rather than the rule, although both are available. If you buy your own property then at least one of the problems(heat retention/heating) can be addressed. You could also move to Jo'burg or Durban or somewhere in the North that is much hotter with milder winters.

"Money":
When I moved to the UK all the prices seemed very low as the number of pounds was a low number. However, when I converted back to Rands I realised how expensive things were. I guess the reverse applies in your case. Although I can only comment on prices in Europe and if you think cost of living is expensive in RSA, you will be shattered by the cost of living in the UK. And incomes here are not great as all the politicians are trying social engineering making everybody(except the VERY rich) equally poor.

"Medical Care":
When I look at the news, it seems like medical care in the USA, as here in the UK, leaves much to be desired. It is important to negotiate your terms with your doctor BEFORE you settle on a doctor. This was even the case before I left. In the UK you have choices between bad and worse medical care. As an annecdote to 2fargone, friends of mine that came to RSA had crones disease diagnosed which was never picked up in the UK. I suppose it depends on the doctor you use in RSA(as it always did).

"Social":
When you move countries, or even towns in some places, you will have to adapt and accept the people for the way they are. This applies equally in a country as cross country. If you cannot adapt then you will not fit in with general society. It is not possible to create a little "home" where you move to. That is why I avoided making any South African friends in the UK.

"Racial tension":
This is unfortunately true. However, it seems like a real problem in the USA as well and it is becoming a problem in the UK where it is worse as it is nationalistic tension. Having said that, at least the abolishment of apartheid was done without a blood bath. This will take time to shake out.

"Politics":
The ANC will eventually lose its support unless it improves it governance. Whenever I have visited it has struck me that very little has changed except that the black community seems to be worse off each time I visit, except for the very few rich. Eventually the people will realise the ANC is no longer the answer and the democracy will improve. It took centuries in Europe, so it will take time here as well.

"Crime":
This is a real problem in all societies where there is a big income divide. The only way it will come down is if the economy can provide the jobs and commensurate pay and this will, again, take time.

"Internet":
The size of the country makes it expensive, near impossible, to install cable to every home and therefore ADSL is the only proposition as it uses existing telephone networks. But ADSL is unreliable, aggravated by poor telephone services in RSA. Even here in the UK ADSL is pathetic, but at least 80% of homes have the choice of fibre optics.


"Quality of service and products":
I think the USA is the only country that has the variety of products, most likely explained by its population size. We suffer from limited selection here in the UK as well. You learn to live with it.


But in the end, it is personal choice that will be different for different people. The one thing that is for sure, there WILL be differences between the "from" country and the "TO" country and if they are not acceptable, don't go to the TO country as changes don't happen overnight.


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## DublinAngie (Jul 19, 2012)

Daxk said:


> Shumifan, absolutely valid iro of the UK and probably the USA too.
> Its to each his own and each persons needs are different, if I did not have a child, specifically, a teenage daughter, I would probably still be back in SA.
> However, let me look at things on a personal basis vis a vis my lifestyle.
> Where you live in SA dictates your lifestyle and freedom,smaller Coastal towns along the garden Route or Natal have less violent crime so when I did my Quo Vadis analysis back in 2004, moving there was one of my options.
> ...


I think your post is a little misleading about what life in Ireland is actually like. The vast majority of Irish people do not live in large 4 bedroom 4 bathroom homes in the country with a river through their back garden. For economic reasons most people need to live near Dublin or other big towns. The houses there, for the average person, are all mostly semi-detached or terraced as I am sure you know. Also, because the Irish economy went down the toilet so spectacularly people who bought houses in the smaller towns and more rural areas have lost their shirts on those houses. They sold for a small fortune back in the "Celtic Tiger" years and are now selling for pennies. In fact a large proportion of people in Dublin find themselves in serious negative equatity now too. The country is very poorly run (as is South Africa in fairness) and the politicians in Ireland are an absolute joke. 

There are no private schools in Ireland that charge the equivalent of ZAR3500 per year unless your daughter is in receipt of a bursary or you are getting an amazing discount in fees. I have a teenage daughter myself and know what schools charge. Perhaps she is in one of the very few non-private Loretos? My daughter attended a Loreto (hers was non-private but most Loretos are private and very expensive) and her "fees", the so called voluntary contribution, were EUR300 per year, which is excellent for a government school of course but also sounds remarkably similar to what you pay for a "private" school  Her textbooks for first year in secondary cost me in the region of EUR450. Substantially more than textbooks for the first year in secondary cost in South Africa. I agree that schools there are very good and I have experienced them with my kids right from playschool, through primary school and into secondary. 

One thing that has struck me is that the kids in South Africa are MUCH more polite and better behaved than the kids in Ireland. One of our reasons for leaving Ireland was that the whole teen culture there worried me and I didn't want my daughter growing up like those girls. The attitude of most teens (and kids) in Ireland is horrifying. When I walk into my daughter's school here in SA the difference in the kids is amazing. Adults are still in control in SA, I don't think the same can be said for Ireland.

I do agree that the cost of living in South Africa is incredibly high. Groceries are the same, if not more, here than they are in Ireland. Medical Aid was something that we had to pay in Ireland too so no major difference there. We do of course have the added expense of security and utilities are very expensive here too.

The Irish medical system is a joke. Yes, the public system there is better than South Africa's public health system (not hard to beat that though!) but it is still not excellent. Most people in Ireland who want to be assured of quality care and no long waiting lists have to cough up for private medical insurance. We did. I have seen how long people wait to be seen on the public list. 

On the whole there are a lot of positives to Ireland, but many negatives too. The same can be said for South Africa of course. I totally understand why people decide to leave South Africa but I think, given the current situation in Ireland, that it would be the very last place I would suggest, which is a pity as it is actually lovely. I lived there for a long time and miss it a lot at times :rain:


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## shumifan49 (Sep 18, 2013)

@Daxk:
I think I explained the linkage between your posts/RoI/RSA in post #47.

Explaining what the 5 vs 26 counties and democracy, The UK is also a democracy (sort of LOL). While the UK hangs on to NI the extremists that want it to be part of RoI will keep up the terrorist attacks. Should NI be integrated with RoI the extremist loyalists will start terrorising RoI. That is why the integration of the 5 counties will instigate terrorism in RoI. It is not a numbers game; you only need a few extremists.

Anyway this is off topic and it still remains a personal choice and is not a competition between countries. Fortunately people are different, make different choices for different reasons and so creates a world that is a lot more interesting than it would be otherwise.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

DublinAngie said:


> I think your post is a little misleading about what life in Ireland is actually like. The vast majority of Irish people do not live in large 4 bedroom 4 bathroom homes in the country with a river through their back garden. For economic reasons most people need to live near Dublin or other big towns. The houses there, for the average person, are all mostly semi-detached or terraced as I am sure you know. Also, because the Irish economy went down the toilet so spectacularly people who bought houses in the smaller towns and more rural areas have lost their shirts on those houses. They sold for a small fortune back in the "Celtic Tiger" years and are now selling for pennies. In fact a large proportion of people in Dublin find themselves in serious negative equatity now too. The country is very poorly run (as is South Africa in fairness) and the politicians in Ireland are an absolute joke.
> 
> There are no private schools in Ireland that charge the equivalent of ZAR3500 per year unless your daughter is in receipt of a bursary or you are getting an amazing discount in fees. I have a teenage daughter myself and know what schools charge. Perhaps she is in one of the very few non-private Loretos? My daughter attended a Loreto (hers was non-private but most Loretos are private and very expensive) and her "fees", the so called voluntary contribution, were EUR300 per year, which is excellent for a government school of course but also sounds remarkably similar to what you pay for a "private" school  Her textbooks for first year in secondary cost me in the region of EUR450. Substantially more than textbooks for the first year in secondary cost in South Africa. I agree that schools there are very good and I have experienced them with my kids right from playschool, through primary school and into secondary.
> 
> ...



Hi DublinAngel,
I agree with you, you will note that I specifically said that I live in the Sticks, 30 minutes out of Galway to be exact, I chose not to live in Dublin (or Limerick)for the very reasons you pointed out as well as both of those having a high crime factor at Irish Crime levels.

I also agree with you that Irish Building prices, and the crash has hurt a large number of people iro of Debt Inequity..., its partly why I did not buy when I first arrived, I expected an adjustment in house prices but figured it would be via a higher mortgage rate, not a total worldwide financial collapse.. I was following some very old advice, when the guy who drives a grader on the Roadworks is building 3 houses on spec on interest only loans or the Tea-Lady is investing in the Stock Market, its not a good time to buy... yet...

I went through a similar situation in SA, Mortgage rates increased in ONE month from 14%pa to 21% pa and Credit interest rates went to 31%....
at one stage each of the three banks owned in excess of 100k houses each that they had repossessed (and kicked the people out)and they sold them on auction, I bought 5 in 3 months, all at less than half of what was owing, I expected something similar in Ireland.
Just not to the same extent but it did benefit me. 

I am fortunate that I DONT have to live in Dublin and another Saffer trait is that we are used to driving as South Africa does not have much of a public Transport system excluding the Gautrain and parts of CT, and Irish Culture tends to want to be close to Shop/Bus/Pub/Sportsfield, so 30 minutes drive to town or 10 minutes to School is considered far and an hour to the office is unheard off except in SA where it is quite often the norm..

So, if you are able to live that far out there are literally thousands of large, detached homes Homes standing empty , most unfinished, but the average rental for a 4 bed newish home with a garage is between €600-700 a month, thats under R8k a month even at the current rate.
A friend of mine has two for rent at the moment at Labane one for €600 and the other for €700, my own one was rented out at €600 a month before I moved in... I will post pics separately.
My Daughter goes to one of the Convent Schools, which had a waiting list( I will post the name to you in a PM,) I chose that school as its in the top 100 over the the other four available, no bursary and it is a "voluntary" contribution of €350/year plus textbooks.
I will agree that on the whole, SA schoolkids are better disciplined and mannered,

As to healthcare,depending on what is needed, yes,you could end up waiting, and we do do have a dread disease "Medical Aid" that costs me €120 a month in the event that my wife or I suddenly need cancer treatment.. and because of my age and the enterprise Grants when I started the first Busines, we have medical cards,(and if we did not earn enough we would have them too) which means all my ,and my wifes and my chilkds medical, is free.. and deoending on Triage at A&E, you could end up waiting or be seen immediately.
I had a heart attack at home two weeks ago, the ambulance arrived in 20 minutes and I was on the table having 4 Stents put in within an hour in a World class Facility, in the "Sticks",and my rehab for the next 3 months is also included, all of that was free.Sorry my Medicines cost me €6.00.

So , Angel, I agree with you, Ireland is not for everyone,and quite honestly, unless you are on a very small scarce skills list , its not easy to get work or make a living, if you need constant sunshine or a maid, dont even think about it, you will be unhappy.
But, and as I said, when I compared MY life in Midrand with My life in Galway, then moving here, for my wife and daughters sake, was the absolute best thing I could have done.
In every respect except Hot Sunshine and a 5 hour drive to the Indian Ocean, but!! I have been chopping up fridges and burning tyres in my backyard for 5 years now, to try and get some global warming going over my house, it seems to be working!!


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

DublinAngel,
I know this is off topic and will remove it shortly, these are two houses in Labane, Co Galway, 3 minutes from the Bus Stop 5 mins from a PrimarY School, 7 minutes from a small Supermarket and Pub, the one on the left is €650 and the one on the right is €600 a month, both are 30 minutes from Galway Centre.


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## shumifan49 (Sep 18, 2013)

Now, if you had to find a job in that area, what would your income be? That is the other side of the income/expenditure comparison. If it is like in England, there will be VERY few jobs, if any, available; maybe a farm hand or work in a pub/restaurant.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

shumifan49 said:


> Now, if you had to find a job in that area, what would your income be? That is the other side of the income/expenditure comparison. If it is like in England, there will be VERY few jobs, if any, available; maybe a farm hand or work in a pub/restaurant.


I can only speak as to Galway, its similar to Port Elizabeth. On average salaries seem to be between 5 and 10% lower out of Dublin.

Galway's main manufacturing base is in the Medical Micro engineering field and a lot of service industry for that,

Its not at all like the UK, as most of RoI is within a two hour drive of Galway, (one of the reasons I chose it) and my own installation teams cover the 26 Counties from Galway.
(and I dont know anyone who is a farm hand unless they own the Farm.)

It does however mean careful scheduling as it does not, obviously, pay me to send a team on a 4 hour drive for a one hour installation so I run a National route where each team gets to North South East or West at least once a month.

For other people, its going to depend on their industry, for obvious reasons anyone involved in Construction in Ireland needs to be working for the Civils as thats the only money being spent on infrastructure rather than domestic, 

Financials, too, as there has been and will be a restructuring of the Banks which will put a lot more applicants on the road and make competition tougher,but....there is welfare, its not great but Coca Cola still outsells milk as a cold drink, and there are very few people who have been put out on the street and I have yet to see someone starving.

This is a link to Salaries in Ireland for various disciplines, at a rough guess someone needs to be earning about €35k before tax a year here to survive reasonably outside of Dublin

Salary Guide and Expectations in Ireland


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## shumifan49 (Sep 18, 2013)

As an example from the South-East of England. This house would rent for around £2000+(R32000) per month. It is 1 hour from London, but close to train station, busses, schools, Heatrow and the local city centre.
So in England it depends very much where you want to live, but even the lowest rent for a 3 bed is around £900.
This compares to RSA where a 4 bed on the West Rand in a secure neighbourhood, simlar distance from Joburg/Sandton as above from London, would rent for around R10000, but it would most likely have a pool and have much bigger rooms. I discovered how small rooms are in England when I brought my Yellow Wood dining room suite with me and when looking for a house, had to see the dining room first to see if it would fit.


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## Daxk (Jan 20, 2008)

Shumifan, plse dont misunderstand me,I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from going to SA, it IS a beautiful Country, its people are warm and friendly, Houses are large and cheap as are househelp/nannies and gardeners, and they are a boon..I have a Lithuanian lass who comes in once a week for 5 hours to do the Ironing and a whip through the house,Love to have old Emma, etc...
This thread is about pro's and Cons of going to SA, before I left I looked at a lot of Countries and options, I looked at staying where I was , I looked at the Cape, I looked at Oz where I was offered a position on a 457 and NZ where I had a position in Auckland, I looked at the UK and the best I could get was Tipton near Birmingham and I looked at Ireland with its same population size as Jhbg, I numbercrunched Earnings VS Living costs, House and car prices, medical and life for students as well as OAP's,
I looked at Doomsday scenarios and places ability to feed itself, Population sizes,car accident and crime stats, hell I even looked at Suicide numbers per 1000, and then I made my decision.
I am happy with it, for me and my family and circumstance, it was the best move I ever made, but thats not true for everyone.
we can debate ad nauseam about which country and where, the House in your thumbnail, from what I saw in the UK, and Dublin is comparable to houses in the better suburbs in SA, there might be some in the better suburbs of the West Rand,too, and they probably will be cheap, I hear what you say about room sizes, and also probably window sizes, in the older and terraced houses, I agree with you, in the House I chose in Ireland, in the Country, at a fire sale price, its larger than my house in SA, where I have a tenant.
anyway, once again, I wish anyone who wants to go to SA, well, it has a lot going for it.


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## MissGlobal (Aug 4, 2012)

Just commenting - shumi - a house like that in Cape Town would be way more than 10k - maybe close to double ....


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## MissGlobal (Aug 4, 2012)

Legal man - I wanted to say - moving money into SA is easy - it's getting it out that's a nightmare


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## MissGlobal (Aug 4, 2012)

Hey Shumi - Sorry I missed this - so I'll try to respond to the different portions where I have an opinion:

*Your Comment : *
_"It's insanely cold in winter: There are 2 problems. Capetown is a much colder climate than Jo'burg and central heating/double glazing is still the exception rather than the rule, although both are available. If you buy your own property then at least one of the problems(heat retention/heating) can be addressed. You could also move to Jo'burg or Durban or somewhere in the North that is much hotter with milder winters._

The issue isn't the temperature here - it's insulation. I'm from Atlanta and the north east in the USA. I'm used to hail, snow, and ice storms. I'm also used to temperatures much hotter than here - and swinging wildly in both directions. The problem is that the homes here aren't built to be energy efficient. Hence the freezing in the home. And yes - I could buy / build my own home that way - but it's like you said - it's the exception not the rule with homes here - which makes my selection a lot smaller. And our house has central heating / cooling - but without the insulation it's like watching money blow out of a machine.

*"Money":*
_When I moved to the UK all the prices seemed very low as the number of pounds was a low number. However, when I converted back to Rands I realised how expensive things were. I guess the reverse applies in your case. Although I can only comment on prices in Europe and if you think cost of living is expensive in RSA, you will be shattered by the cost of living in the UK. And incomes here are not great as all the politicians are trying social engineering making everybody(except the VERY rich) equally poor._

I wouldn't be shattered - I lived in Switzerland for a few years - I know just how insane cost of living is in Europe. That's another reason I've never even thought of moving there....

*"Medical Care":*
_When I look at the news, it seems like medical care in the USA, as here in the UK, leaves much to be desired. It is important to negotiate your terms with your doctor BEFORE you settle on a doctor. This was even the case before I left. In the UK you have choices between bad and worse medical care. As an annecdote to 2fargone, friends of mine that came to RSA had crones disease diagnosed which was never picked up in the UK. I suppose it depends on the doctor you use in RSA(as it always did)._

The issues in the USA aren't around quality of care - they are about ability to pay for care. I can't even begin to describe how many missed diagnoses I've dealt with here in SA. Especially since there isn't a culture of using technology to diagnose. GPs still want to look at you and then diagnose instead of using tests and bloodwork as a first protocol. You simply don't have as many options for care when you are here in SA - no matter what doctor you choose. And this is fine if you don't have health issues ( albeit not unique) - but I do - and I didn't realize how hard it would be to find a qualified specialist until I lived here. 

*"Social":*
_When you move countries, or even towns in some places, you will have to adapt and accept the people for the way they are. This applies equally in a country as cross country. If you cannot adapt then you will not fit in with general society. It is not possible to create a little "home" where you move to. That is why I avoided making any South African friends in the UK._

I've been moving all my life and have lived in different places. I understand how to adapt - but I'm also realistic about what I need. Hence my feeling that in short doses I could live here - but long term - it isn't a good fit for us. The issue isn't making friends - it's about finding a certain level of energy - and it's too negative here for my tastes. There's too much demoralization and self loathing as a nation for my tastes. More than I've experienced in other places.

*"Racial tension":*
This is unfortunately true. However, it seems like a real problem in the USA as well and it is becoming a problem in the UK where it is worse as it is nationalistic tension. Having said that, at least the abolishment of apartheid was done without a blood bath. This will take time to shake out.

Racial tension isn't nearly as bad as they claim in the news on the US. It's actually pretty simple. It's easy to move - so you have the option to move where you want to - and you can avoid areas with serious racial issues. Which funny enough are normally the more remote areas. 

*"Internet":*
_The size of the country makes it expensive, near impossible, to install cable to every home and therefore ADSL is the only proposition as it uses existing telephone networks. But ADSL is unreliable, aggravated by poor telephone services in RSA. Even here in the UK ADSL is pathetic, but at least 80% of homes have the choice of fibre optics._

I actually don't agree with this. The issue here is quality of service. We travel to east africa frequently - and it makes no sense that I have better wireless and mobile internet speeds and stability in remote villages in Uganda ( as well as in Kenya) than I do here in Cape Town. There's a monopoly with a parastatal company that owns the entire network. Therefore there's no competition and no incentive to provide better service.


*"Quality of service and products":*
_I think the USA is the only country that has the variety of products, most likely explained by its population size. We suffer from limited selection here in the UK as well. You learn to live with it.
_
THe US is large - 350 million people but hardly the most populous country out there. There's a consumer culture and the "idea" of free competition which helps drive the economy as well. That being said - having a better board of standards for products would actually reduce the number of low quality products allowed to be sold in this market. 



FInal thoughts - I get what you're saying


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## hedgehog1 (Sep 21, 2013)

Hi. Am in the same boat. Came to UK from Zim, but miss Africa so terribly badly. Have been thinking of going back with my grown up kids to SA as my mum and sister and nieces are all there, the lifestyle, etc - all you described. I'd like to go live between Mossel Bay and Plett, perhaps creating my own business.

Did you go back to SA in the end, and how is it??????


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## MissGlobal (Aug 4, 2012)

Hey hedge - who's your question for?


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## shumifan49 (Sep 18, 2013)

" Legal man - I wanted to say - moving money into SA is easy - it's getting it out that's a nightmare"

Taking out money that you brought in is no problem provided you saved all the documentation when bringing the money in. Taking out locally earned money is much more difficult, but not impossible.


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