# question re residency



## deedee76 (Nov 1, 2013)

hi ,
Just a quick question ,could someone post a link regarding the 600 euro per person(inc children) per month income we need to show before getting residency as before i posted my previous post i was not aware of this and i cant find anything about it in the requirements .
thank you


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

deedee76 said:


> hi ,
> Just a quick question ,could someone post a link regarding the 600 euro per person(inc children) per month income we need to show before getting residency as before i posted my previous post i was not aware of this and i cant find anything about it in the requirements .
> thank you


I don't think it's actually written down like that anywhere.

I seem to recall that the wording is that you must not be a burden on the state (can't see how us foreigners can be as we can get nothing from the state!). 

That figure has been arrived at from people's experience. Every office seems to have a different set of rules. Some say a sum in the bank is sufficient others say you need both etc. etc.


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## deedee76 (Nov 1, 2013)

oh right thank you , ive looked on every residency website lol , i thought i was going bonkers x


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

ii. have sufficient resources, for themselves and their family members, not to become a burden on Spain’s social assistance system during their period of residence. Proof of the possession of sufficient resources, whether from regular income, including work income or income of another kind, or from ownership of assets, will be given by any legally admissible evidence, such as property deeds, certified cheques, documentation proving that income from capital is received or credit cards. In this latter case, an up to date bank certificate proving the amount available by way of credit on the aforesaid card shall be produced. The assessment of sufficient resources must be carried out on an individual basis, taking into account the applicant’s personal and family circumstances. The possession of resources that are more than the amount established each year by the State General Budgets Act “Ley de Presupuestos Generales de Estado” that justifies the right to receive non-contributory benefits, taking into account the interested persons’ personal and family circumstances, will be regarded as sufficient proof to meet this requirement​
Source: https://www.gov.uk/residency-requirements-in-spain


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

zenkarma said:


> ii. have sufficient resources, for themselves and their family members, not to become a burden on Spain’s social assistance system during their period of residence. Proof of the possession of sufficient resources, whether from regular income, including work income or income of another kind, or from ownership of assets, will be given by any legally admissible evidence, such as property deeds, certified cheques, documentation proving that income from capital is received or credit cards. In this latter case, an up to date bank certificate proving the amount available by way of credit on the aforesaid card shall be produced. The assessment of sufficient resources must be carried out on an individual basis, taking into account the applicant’s personal and family circumstances. The possession of resources that are more than the amount established each year by the State General Budgets Act “Ley de Presupuestos Generales de Estado” that justifies the right to receive non-contributory benefits, taking into account the interested persons’ personal and family circumstances, will be regarded as sufficient proof to meet this requirement​
> Source: https://www.gov.uk/residency-requirements-in-spain



Am I right in thinking that the usual amount required is €600 per person per month, including children, paid into a Spanish bank account? Are savings also required? Do you also have to prove you have adequate medical provision in place?
So for five people you need to prove income of €3000 a month excluding spending on health cover?


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> Am I right in thinking that the usual amount required is €600 per person per month, including children, paid into a Spanish bank account? Are savings also required?


No idea.

My interpretation of that paragraph is that people are assessed solely on their personal circumstances and that the amount of funds required whether regular monthly income or lump sum savings will differ from person to person depending on those circumstances.

That's logical — it's fair to say that the income required to sustain a couple with two children of school age is going to be significantly more than a single person for example.

This is probably why a specified set amount has not been stipulated.


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## deedee76 (Nov 1, 2013)

Am I right in thinking that the usual amount required is €600 per person per month, including children, paid into a Spanish bank account? Are savings also required? Do you also have to prove you have adequate medical provision in place?
So for five people you need to prove income of €3000 a month excluding spending on health cover? 

if this is the case then we have no chance of moving over as our regular income would only be 2600 euros this is before we pay the 350 euro a health insurance . we do have savings but i cant see that making any difference


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

I have no doubt that the full amount would be expected in respect of young children because there are a certain amount of fixed costs, e.g. rent which would be shared across the entire family. Don't forget that the amount expected doesn't have to stay in the account. You can draw it out a short while after it has been paid in and pay it back in a couple of weeks later, it just has to figure in the incoming column of the bank statement.


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## Megsmum (Sep 9, 2012)

Remember that the amount you have coming in will be subject to fluctuation on the exchange market so what 2600 is now may be more or less depending on the exchange rate. 

To my mind, even if Spain is cheaper on some things, it is a wise to look at everything being like for like. We have spent the last year ( excluding mortgage and associated costs) lived off here in the UK what we would have to live off in Spain, that way we have been able to identify waste etc. We will have a very modest income, but we know we can live off of it, we have also allowed for inflation over the coming years, and not allowed for interest on savings, so basically looking at living off the least and expecting costs to rise. 
If your husband is travelling to and from England and there are 5 of you 2600 seems low, but then my kids are 30+ now so what do i know LOL 

Thats aside from residency, but to be honest in your situation, it seems to me that residency is the least of your issues, you need to think about schools and health first, can you afford private health cover, and schools - not sure about schools though, do you have to be paying into system to get free schools??


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## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

At the Torremolinos office were told we needed at least €20,000 in a Spanish bank account before they would even entertain our application for a family of 4 (2 kids, 2 adults). 
This was despite my husband having a work contract (which we needed to have translated legally into Spanish - a work contract that clearly stated he would be bringing far more than the €600 per person per month salary). 
We also had proof that we had taken out private health insurance. 
So we needed to dump some more money into La Caixa, we paid to have hubby's contract legally translated and we were 'reluctantly' granted residency!! 
Had it not been for another customer, a lovely German lady fluent in Spanish, we would have failed for a 2nd time. The clerk literally threw all of our paperwork back at us as the interpreter was on vacation for 1 month (we had an appointment). The German lady intervened and helped us, couldn't thank her enough. 
15 years living in Asia & dealing with their immigration services, applying for Alien Registration Cards & visas and I have never experienced anything so foreign in my life!

So in our very recent experience (August 2013) at the office in Torremolinos the rules we encountered were:

€5000 - €6000 per applicant (incl children) in a Spanish bank account.

Proof of private health insurance - that was very important, and we needed to take copies of our policy to be officially stamped at a Sanitas office - despite having Sanitas cards with us as proof.

(We pay €164 to Sanitas per month for the 4 of us).

The work contract needed to be legally translated, although I am not sure they were that interested. They were more concerned with our bank statement.

As my husband had not started his job we could show no regular income going into a bank account. In your case that may make a difference. 

But I wouldn't recommend applying in Torremolinos!


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## deedee76 (Nov 1, 2013)

i would have no rent or mortgage i planned on buying outright x


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

baldilocks said:


> I have no doubt that the full amount would be expected in respect of young children because there are a certain amount of fixed costs, e.g. rent which would be shared across the entire family. Don't forget that the amount expected doesn't have to stay in the account. You can draw it out a short while after it has been paid in and pay it back in a couple of weeks later, it just has to figure in the incoming column of the bank statement.


OOOOOOOPppppps That should have been the other way round "I doubt that the full amount would be expected"


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

It does vary from region to region and considerably. Someone we know just applied for residency where we live and they weren't asked for proof of anything and got their residencia no problems. The week before at the same police station another person was asked for proof of income and healthcare. €600 per month per person or €5000 in the bank. Where we live it seems it depends on who is on the desk that day. This is Spain!!!!


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## deedee76 (Nov 1, 2013)

thrax you have put 600 a month OR 5000 euro in the bank , we do have money in the bank to but a villa plus another account with back up fund plus 2600 monthly income do you think we would be considered?


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## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

Why don't you just stick €30,000 in a Spanish bank account (your villa money) plus proof of private healthcare (or proof of whatever legitimate alternative you have) & I am sure that would cover most regions max requirements? Like someone mentioned earlier once residency is granted just move that money out again.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

The new system is not well understood by the Spanish. If you put this money in a Spanish account then get your residency then take it out again. I have never come across anyone who has been checked once residency is granted. Here it is either OR but that might not apply elsewhere...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

deedee76 said:


> thrax you have put 600 a month OR 5000 euro in the bank , we do have money in the bank to but a villa plus another account with back up fund plus 2600 monthly income do you think we would be considered?


I honestly cannot see how that amount would be considered enough for five people even without paying rent. It's below the UK average for a family of four although that figure includes rent. I spend over €100 a month on fuel for the car yet don't do much travelling.Diesel/petrol is not much cheaper than in the UK.
Even having bought your own property outright - and although Torrevieja isn't as expensive property- wise as some areas you'll surely need well over €100k for anything half/way decent- The expenses of running a house plus a family of five will require more than €2600.

I think your biggest problem regarding money regulations will be the fact you have three children and one with a serious disability. Does your medical insurance cover ALL expenses such as hospital stays, medications and so on?

Well, you may be lucky with the money rules.. Who knows? Nothing here seems fixed and finite!


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Slightly off-topic but one thing the government don't appear to have considered, apart from the aside that " no person shall be a burden on the state" , is that after the initial 5 year period of residency ,what is there to stop anyone applying for healthcare under the " letter of legislation ", route arguing that they have fallen on hard times? They'd be a permanent resident & as such identical to a Spanish person. 
the original cobbled together , amended 2 dozen times, law merely covers obtaing residency after 24th April 2012. There is nothing in it to clarify the ongoing requirements after residency has been granted. 
It was always a desperate attempt to deny the illegal immigrants & all those EU foreigners that hadn't registered as well got caught out.
I can see another can of worms being opened in a few years! :lol: Along with all the other cans we've already got open! :rofl:


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## deedee76 (Nov 1, 2013)

mrypg9 we are managing off at lot less here in the uk and my outgoings are far greater than they would be in spain , the power of stretching every last penny comes natural to me and for that we can live quite comfortably in spain . when we spent a month there in january we budgeted 1800 for the month and in that dined out 1/2 times per week which we would not do in the uk x 
medical insurance i have had two quotes upto now , 325-350 euros for the 5 of us per month and i had not factored this into my origanal budget but we still have money to spare each month . waiting for a friend to get back to me regarding self employment as she was under the impression we could pay a stamp duty to the spanish goverment like you do here. as i say i am looking into everything and untill we are 100 % sure on everything we wont be making the move until its all sorted


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

deedee76 said:


> mrypg9 we are managing off at lot less here in the uk and my outgoings are far greater than they would be in spain , the power of stretching every last penny comes natural to me and for that we can live quite comfortably in spain . when we spent a month there in january we budgeted 1800 for the month and in that dined out 1/2 times per week which we would not do in the uk x
> medical insurance i have had two quotes upto now , 325-350 euros for the 5 of us per month and i had not factored this into my origanal budget but we still have money to spare each month . waiting for a friend to get back to me regarding self employment as she was under the impression we could pay a stamp duty to the spanish goverment like you do here. as i say i am looking into everything and untill we are 100 % sure on everything we wont be making the move until its all sorted


As for self employment there is a new scheme where you pay just 50€ a month for a limited period. That's like NI and you pay tax on top. After that your payments go up to 250€ + a month. You can't just ' pay' though, you have to have a business and produce invoices and accounts. 
If self employed you and your family can access state healthcare.
If you don't go that route, it's highly unlikely that any private insurance would cover pre-existing conditions and usually medications are charged at full price


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

deedee76 said:


> mrypg9 we are managing off at lot less here in the uk and my outgoings are far greater than they would be in spain , the power of stretching every last penny comes natural to me and for that we can live quite comfortably in spain . when we spent a month there in january we budgeted 1800 for the month and in that dined out 1/2 times per week which we would not do in the uk x
> medical insurance i have had two quotes upto now , 325-350 euros for the 5 of us per month and i had not factored this into my origanal budget but we still have money to spare each month . waiting for a friend to get back to me regarding self employment as she was under the impression we could pay a stamp duty to the spanish goverment like you do here. as i say i am looking into everything and untill we are 100 % sure on everything we wont be making the move until its all sorted



It's good you can make your money stretch ...but I think you need to have a spell of living somewhere before you can say with certainty what you will need to live on.
I'd also say that relying on friends for information isn't a good idea. I have never heard of anyone paying a kind of NI to the Spanish Government to obtain health cover. As Xavia has said, you need to be registered as autonomo which means having a real business in Spain. You can't have a business in the UK and claim healthcare in Spain by paying a 'stamp'.

I think your main problems will be proof of income and most of all getting the care you need for your eldest son. As Xavia also said, most insurance policies do not cover pre-existing conditions or cost of medicines. 

No-one is trying to disappoint you by pointing out these problems- on the contrary. I think it would be a good idea if you came to Spain with your family for an extended stay, at least six months, preferably a year. Although living with your in-laws will shield you to a great extent from everyday expenses and problems such as rent, property taxes, utility bills and so on, you will be able to do your research on the ground. It's important to find if there are facilities near where you will be living that can cope adequately with your son's condition. You will also get a more realistic view of daily living expenses.
I can't stress too much how different holiday visits are from actually living somewhere abroad. Believe me, I know!! Thirty years of visiting Prague several times a year, staying with friends who were like family...and what a culture shock I got when I lived there..
Of course Torrevieja is heaviliy British populated which makes a huge difference to the support you'll get. We knew no Brits in Prague and frankly didn't want to as on the whole they are an unprepossessing bunch, with a few exceptions.

Out of sheer curiosity..have you factored on the cost of your husband's flights to and from the UK, the cost of matriculating your UK car if bringing it..you cannot drive a UK plated car after a certain period - and fluctuations in the exchange rate? Our income in Prague fell by one-third in our second year which put a stop to us swanning around like multi-millionaires...which we were by Czech standards as in those days a million Czech crowns equalled less than £25k.
That was one of the many reasons we left Prague...it just wasn't vfm any more.

So..why not plan for that exploratory year when you will be able to find the facts on the ground, estimate your long-term financial needs, learn some Spanish...and most importantly, check out your son's health care needs?
I'd come over as soon as you can to experience a Spanish winter, btw.


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

I agree with everything mrypg says except the idea of moving over for 6mths to a year. That's probably just not practical in your case, too much upheaval to schooling, healthcare and work.

I don't know how you should go about finding out but if I were you my first priority would be checking whether your eldest son would be accepted as a dependant or not. It may seem obvious to us that he is, but that does not mean the Spanish authorities will agree - and if they do agree one day, a different person on a different day may disagree. 

If he is deemed independant because he will be an 18yr old adult, then how are you going to get the authorities to accept that he will never be a burden on the state and grant residencia?

Be very sure that you can get proper cover for him on private insurance. You could be in trouble if they exclude existing conditions, and even if they do, paying for any treatment/ prescriptions not covered, could put a serious dent in the finances. Worth remembering that even new problems may not be covered because insurance companies will always try to avoid paying out by saying the new condition is in some way related to existing conditions.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

brocher said:


> I agree with everything mrypg says except the idea of moving over for 6mths to a year. That's probably just not practical in your case, too much upheaval to schooling, healthcare and work.
> 
> I don't know how you should go about finding out but if I were you my first priority would be checking whether your eldest son would be accepted as a dependant or not. It may seem obvious to us that he is, but that does not mean the Spanish authorities will agree - and if they do agree one day, a different person on a different day may disagree.
> 
> ...


Thinking about it..yes, you are right.


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## GUAPACHICA (Jun 30, 2012)

Hi - another point to bear in mind is that although it's possible to live in Spain, as a British citizen, for up to 183 days before becoming a tax resident. the UK Govt. currently switches off the NHS free- access tap after just three months!!!

Following its recent 'consultation exercise', the same Govt. is considering changing the rules, next year, to allow those who've paid at least seven years' worth of NI contributions previously to continue to have the right to NHS free care, if required. IMO, that would be a fair and just decision!

For those who've made a permanent move to Spain and are satisfied with the Spanish healthcare system, this will not be an issue - but for would-be residents, especially those with young children, wishing to 'test the water' via a six month stay, it could well be a crucial matter! As we're all aware, Spanish law is being amended in so many ways, during this crisis, so who can say just how the Public Healthcare system here will operate in future...?

Saludos,
GC


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

So, how long is a certificate of residency valid for? Is there certain lengths?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

David1979 said:


> So, how long is a certificate of residency valid for? Is there certain lengths?


for an EU citizen they're indefinite - though some people have been told that they have to renew after 5 years


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> for an EU citizen they're indefinite - though some people have been told that they have to renew after 5 years


So, if it's indefinite how can you possibly show that you'll have enough money in the bank to support you?

Let's say it's €600 per month they're looking for. What if you have enough money to last you for, say, 18 months? Do you only get a residence certificate for that period?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

David1979 said:


> So, if it's indefinite how can you possibly show that you'll have enough money in the bank to support you?
> 
> Let's say it's €600 per month they're looking for. What if you have enough money to last you for, say, 18 months? Do you only get a residence certificate for that period?


they only want to know that you can support yourself at the time of registration

if you can't support yourself after that they won't help you anyway.....


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

David1979 said:


> So, if it's indefinite how can you possibly show that you'll have enough money in the bank to support you?
> 
> Let's say it's €600 per month they're looking for. What if you have enough money to last you for, say, 18 months? Do you only get a residence certificate for that period?


Like everything in Spain it is ill-thought out. You are only required to have sufficient resources at the time of application.
It is not actually a "residency" certificate. They cannot legally do that anymore. It is a certificate to show that you are registered on the list of Foreigners ,living in the country.
Under EU Rules they do not & cannot confer "residency" it is the EU citizens right to decide that they are resident. Even if you do not fulfil the criteria to obtain a Registration certificate , they cannot ask you to leave.
The registration certificate is once , & once only with no requirement , under EU rules, for any renewal. The Malaga & Almeria offices are now informing people when they receive the cert. that it is "for life" , "as the rules have just changed" !!! :rofl: 
No they've finally been whipped into complying by the EU!


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

gus-lopez said:


> Like everything in Spain it is ill-thought out. You are only required to have sufficient resources at the time of application.
> It is not actually a "residency" certificate. They cannot legally do that anymore. It is a certificate to show that you are registered on the list of Foreigners ,living in the country.
> Under EU Rules they do not & cannot confer "residency" it is the EU citizens right to decide that they are resident. Even if you do not fulfil the criteria to obtain a Registration certificate , they cannot ask you to leave.
> The registration certificate is once , & once only with no requirement , under EU rules, for any renewal. The Malaga & Almeria offices are now informing people when they receive the cert. that it is "for life" , "as the rules have just changed" !!! :rofl:
> No they've finally been whipped into complying by the EU!


Wait, what? 

So basically, if I had went to my local office to apply for residency and didn't have the required financial means it wouldn't have mattered anyway? I could still have remained in Spain regardless?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

David1979 said:


> Wait, what?
> 
> So basically, if I had went to my local office to apply for residency and didn't have the required financial means it wouldn't have mattered anyway? I could still have remained in Spain regardless?


Probably, but you wouldnt have any paperwork, access to healthcare, schools, services, bank accounts, possibly even insurance for vehicle, house etc. You wouldnt have had official residency!

Jo xxx


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

jojo said:


> Probably, but you wouldnt have any paperwork, access to healthcare, schools, services, bank accounts, possibly even insurance for vehicle, house etc. You wouldnt have had official residency!
> 
> Jo xxx


But wouldn't I be entitled to some basic rights as a citizen of the EU? Spain is a member of the EU, right?

Are they basically allowed to apply rules of their own?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

David1979 said:


> But wouldn't I be entitled to some basic rights as a citizen of the EU? Spain is a member of the EU, right?
> 
> Are they basically allowed to apply rules of their own?


 As an EU citizen, you have the right to become a resident (no need for a visa) - thats it as far as I know. Spain isnt like the UK and maybe one or the other have taken the EU rules too literally

Jo xxx


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Yes. Eu rules. Spain & Greece are the only two countries , I believe, that require you to register. 
The UK has the same regulations but does not require registration as " even if they don't fulfill the requirements , we can't ask them to leave ; so what is the point " said a spokesman.


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

jojo said:


> Probably, but you wouldnt have any paperwork, access to healthcare, schools, services, bank accounts, possibly even insurance for vehicle, house etc. You wouldnt have had official residency!
> 
> Jo xxx


As far as schooling goes;



> As EU citizens, your children are entitled to attend school in any EU country under the same conditions as nationals of that country.


As far as banking goes;



> Banks often refuse to let people open bank accounts if they do not live in the country where the bank is established.
> 
> This refusal is only acceptable if there is sound commercial justification. Banks must not discriminate against any EU citizens on the basis of nationality.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

David1979 said:


> As far as schooling goes;
> 
> 
> 
> As far as banking goes;



schools will want to see proof of residency before admitting the child - they _should _accept the padrón - but many won't

banks won't discriminate by nationality - but you will only be able to open a non-resident account without a resident certificate


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> schools will want to see proof of residency before admitting the child - they _should _accept the padrón - but many won't


They would be opening themselves up to legal action then.



xabiachica said:


> banks won't discriminate by nationality - but you will only be able to open a non-resident account without a resident certificate


That's fair enough though, I had such an account myself. I was charged €15 per year to cover the cost of the bank checking to make sure I didn't pay tax in Spain.

Apart from that, my account worked like any other bank account I've ever had.

As for applying for residency;



> *Employees / Postings abroad *
> 
> ◾Valid identity card or passport
> ◾Certificate of employment or confirmation of recruitment from your employer
> ...


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

As always, the quoted text ignores the fourth category - early retirees!


Where's this quote from?


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> As always, the quoted text ignores the fourth category - early retirees!
> 
> 
> Where's this quote from?


The European Commission's official website.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

David1979 said:


> The European Commission's official website.


Thought I'd seen it before - just goes to show that even they can get it wrong (or at least, incomplete!)

It also proves how out-of-date they are. Please listen to people 'on the street' who are going through this NOW.


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> Thought I'd seen it before - just goes to show that even they can get it wrong (or at least, incomplete!)
> 
> It also proves how out-of-date they are. Please listen to people 'on the street' who are going through this NOW.


Your advice is to take the word of "people on the street" over the official website of the European Commission?


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

David1979 said:


> Your advice is to take the word of "people on the street" over the official website of the European Commission?


Absolutely, especially when I can prove that it is wrong!

They have failed to mention the need to prove health care and regular income. Both require additional documentation that is not mentioned.

This new rules became law in Spain this year by Royal decree.


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

snikpoh said:


> Absolutely, especially when I can prove that it is wrong!
> 
> They have failed to mention the need to prove health care and regular income. Both require additional documentation that is not mentioned.
> 
> This new rules became law in Spain this year by Royal decree.


Aren't you entitled to health care if you're paying taxes in Spain as a worker or self-employed?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

David1979 said:


> Aren't you entitled to health care if you're paying taxes in Spain as a worker or self-employed?


Yes, in which case you have both the income and healthcare requirements covered don't you?

There have been so very many changes in the past few weeks even, that the only up to date info is often the state Boletín


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> Yes, in which case you have both the income and healthcare requirements covered don't you?


Yes, so where have they failed to mention the need to prove health care and regular income?

You mentioned early retirees, but surely they would simply come under the same banner as pensioners, wouldn't they? They both would be living on pensions after all.



xabiachica said:


> There have been so very many changes in the past few weeks even, that the only up to date info is often the state Boletín


That may be the case, but Spain, as a member of the European Union, is bound by its laws and regulations like all other member nations.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Early retirees don't get healthcare paid for by their home nation, only Old Age Pensioners get that so early retirees are responsible for making other arrangements such as insurance.


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> Early retirees don't get healthcare paid for by their home nation, only Old Age Pensioners get that so early retirees are responsible for making other arrangements such as insurance.


My post said that pensioners need to show health coverage though, didn't it? Wouldn't early retirees simply come under that banner?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

David1979 said:


> My post said that pensioners need to show health coverage though, didn't it? Wouldn't early retirees simply come under that banner?


No because they are not classed as "pensioners" and are not above the age where they are not expected to work for their benefits.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

David1979 said:


> My post said that pensioners need to show health coverage though, didn't it? Wouldn't early retirees simply come under that banner?


no - because they don't get a pension

although - yes, sort of

pensioners get their healthcare here paid for by the UK - they get form S1 & that shows they have healthcare cover

non-pensioners have to take private healthcare


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

David1979 said:


> Yes, so where have they failed to mention the need to prove health care and regular income?
> 
> You mentioned early retirees, but surely they would simply come under the same banner as pensioners, wouldn't they? They both would be living on pensions after all.
> 
> ...


not quite - there is provision in all EU regulations for member states to adapt them

in any case - all member states can demand healthcare & income - some simply choose not to


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## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

Prior to our residency being begrudgingly granted! we had school places at a private school, opened up a Spanish bank account, rented an apt, had a land telephone line put in, bought mobile phones, sorted private health insurance. I am trying to think when I have needed to give my NIE number, other than when I changed a non residency bank account to a residency one. 
Granted I don't drive so haven't gone down the insurance / car purchase route. 
That silly little slip of green paper is neither use nor ornament as any form of id (I am used to Alien Immigration Cards with photographs). I am often asked to produce my passport as id, even when using a Spanish debit card, for small purchases like make up from Primor, or the one that really took the biscuit €30 worth of tat from Primark and they wanted my passport!
Because we were used to living overseas we assumed that getting a residency card would be our form of id as foreigners in Spain. I don't like carrying my passport around. To be honest I don't know why we bothered? On the 184th of our time in Spain we become residents for tax purposes anyway & they are going to hammer my husband's worldwide income for tax!


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

angil said:


> Prior to our residency being begrudgingly granted! we had school places at a private school, opened up a Spanish bank account, rented an apt, had a land telephone line put in, bought mobile phones, sorted private health insurance. I am trying to think when I have needed to give my NIE number, other than when I changed a non residency bank account to a residency one.
> Granted I don't drive so haven't gone down the insurance / car purchase route.
> That silly little slip of green paper is neither use nor ornament as any form of id (I am used to Alien Immigration Cards with photographs). I am often asked to produce my passport as id, even when using a Spanish debit card, for small purchases like make up from Primor, or the one that really took the biscuit €30 worth of tat from Primark and they wanted my passport!
> Because we were used to living overseas we assumed that getting a residency card would be our form of id as foreigners in Spain. I don't like carrying my passport around. To be honest I don't know why we bothered? On the 184th of our time in Spain we become residents for tax purposes anyway & they are going to hammer my husband's worldwide income for tax!


If you exchange your UK driving licence to a Spanish one, you can use that as an ID - saves having to carry your passport everywhere.


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## angil (Sep 24, 2012)

I don't drive! But thank you for the reply. Will tell hubby when he's home. Do Spanish locals have id cards with their photos on them?? The Korean nationals did complete with a personal number that they could use to access lots of things us foreigners couldn't with our 'lowly' Alien cards! I can't see the sense in the residency 'cards' if they can't be used as id.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

angil said:


> I don't drive! But thank you for the reply. Will tell hubby when he's home. Do Spanish locals have id cards with their photos on them?? The Korean nationals did complete with a personal number that they could use to access lots of things us foreigners couldn't with our 'lowly' Alien cards! I can't see the sense in the residency 'cards' if they can't be used as id.


The Spanish have ID cards which even act as their passport within the EU. I could never understand why the Brits object to having ID cards, they would be much cheaper than passports. 

Similarly I can't understand the objection to the computerisation of health records within the NHS. Here, as you know, if you are on the Spanish healthcare system, you have a card which you can show anywhere in Spain and the healthcare provider can access your computerised health record and give you appropriate treatment.


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> in any case - all member states can demand healthcare & income - some simply choose not to


Seriously?

You would think the Tories would be all over that if they thought they could get away with it.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

David1979 said:


> Yes, so where have they failed to mention the need to prove health care and regular income?
> 
> You mentioned early retirees, but surely they would simply come under the same banner as pensioners, wouldn't they? They both would be living on pensions after all.
> 
> That may be the case, but Spain, as a member of the European Union, is bound by its laws and regulations like all other member nations.


Your route would probably have to be that then! Take them to the European court?? Spain really does do things by their own interpretation. At present, if you want to be a resident, you need to prove income and healthcare provision - either by contracted employment in Spain or self employment (paying autonomous). To get residency any other way will probably be a costly and time consuming battle. And let's not forget, the rules are that as an EU citizen, they must treat you as their own. And their own have to prove residency too.

Early retires up until next year would be covered by the uk - Spain reciprocal agreement, S1 form, 
but I think that's about to end???


Jo xx


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

baldilocks said:


> Similarly I can't understand the objection to the computerisation of health records within the NHS. Here, as you know, if you are on the Spanish healthcare system, you have a card which you can show anywhere in Spain and the healthcare provider can access your computerised health record and give you appropriate treatment.


Actually this is the case in the UK! We all have an NHS number which can trace us! The problem is, although there is one 'spine' system with everyone on it, there are too many 'local' systems that aren't compatable and no one wants to change - it's work in progress tho and those folk who did the infamous air traffic controller system are working on it - for a fee!!! Will it ever work is the question?? 

Sorry I digress 

Jo xxx


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

David1979 said:


> Yes, so where have they failed to mention the need to prove health care and regular income?
> 
> You mentioned early retirees, but surely they would simply come under the same banner as pensioners, wouldn't they? They both would be living on pensions after all.
> 
> ...


Ha, ha!!

I am an early retiree as is my wife. I am 55 and my wife is 51 - we are NOT pensioners! Perhaps we are not 'early retirees' but we certainly do not fall into any of the categories mentioned.

We do not have any form of pension. We do not get any of the benefits a UK pensioner in Spain would.


By not mentioning the early retirees (like us) the European website is failing to give the full facts and requirements.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

jojo said:


> Your route would probably have to be that then! Take them to the European court?? Spain really does do things by their own interpretation. At present, if you want to be a resident, you need to prove income and healthcare provision - either by contracted employment in Spain or self employment (paying autonomous). To get residency any other way will probably be a costly and time consuming battle. And let's not forget, the rules are that as an EU citizen, they must treat you as their own. And their own have to prove residency too.
> 
> Early retires up until next year would be covered by the uk - Spain reciprocal agreement, S1 form,
> but I think that's about to end???
> ...


ONLY for the first 2 years or so. After that they have to go it alone.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

snikpoh said:


> ONLY for the first 2 years or so. After that they have to go it alone.


but only if they have paid sufficient NI contributions, otherwise it is "up to 2 years" and NO, you can't use the EHIC!


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

snikpoh said:


> ONLY for the first 2 years or so. After that they have to go it alone.


Is it true that this is about to be stopped by the UK?? Or did I dream it?

Jo xxx


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

jojo said:


> Is it true that this is about to be stopped by the UK?? Or did I dream it?
> 
> Jo xxx


As I understand it, IDS is trying tg save money and is stopping it April 2014. If he stopped claiming his salary and expenses for doing nothing constructive, it would probably save as much with less hardship to to those whom it his job to help.


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## snikpoh (Nov 19, 2007)

jojo said:


> Is it true that this is about to be stopped by the UK?? Or did I dream it?
> 
> Jo xxx


From 31st March, it's stopped. You were not dreaming.


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

jojo said:


> Your route would probably have to be that then! Take them to the European court?? Spain really does do things by their own interpretation. At present, if you want to be a resident, you need to prove income and healthcare provision - either by contracted employment in Spain or self employment (paying autonomous). To get residency any other way will probably be a costly and time consuming battle. And let's not forget, the rules are that as an EU citizen, they must treat you as their own. And their own have to prove residency too.


And they wonder why most just don't bother registering at all! :suspicious:

Even their system of self-employment is a farce. They make it as difficult as possible for anyone who wishes to start a business legally and contribute.

I can see me heading for somewhere like Germany or France before long. I've enjoyed my time here as far as the weather and the lifestyle goes, but it's definitely not a place for business.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

David1979 said:


> And they wonder why most just don't bother registering at all! :suspicious:
> 
> Even their system of self-employment is a farce. They make it as difficult as possible for anyone who wishes to start a business legally and contribute.
> 
> I can see me heading for somewhere like Germany or France before long. I've enjoyed my time here as far as the weather and the lifestyle goes, but it's definitely not a place for business.


Indeed! It is how it is tho. Many have come and scratched their heads in disbelief - maybe things will change - Spain is known for changing things quickly and quietly. I guess there are two sides tho, remember Spain was once the place to go for an easy, relaxing life and a good income - the most popular expat destination where few paid taxes, cos it was easy not to. Well now they seem to have gone too far the other way - intentionally??? Afterall, many complain that the UK is too easy on immigrants?????


Jo xxx


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

jojo said:


> Indeed! It is how it is tho. Many have come and scratched their heads in disbelief - maybe things will change - Spain is known for changing things quickly and quietly. I guess there are two sides tho, remember Spain was once the place to go for an easy, relaxing life and a good income - the most popular expat destination where few paid taxes, cos it was easy not to. Well now they seem to have gone too far the other way - intentionally??? Afterall, many complain that the UK is too easy on immigrants?????
> 
> 
> Jo xxx


There's a difference between being tough on immigrants who wish to come, claim benefits and do nothing, and making things difficult for people who have come to the country with some decent money in the bank to invest, and who wish to set up and run a business which will better the economy.

Their Autonomo system is basically financial suicide from what I've seen. It's nothing short of ridiculous, and is the reason why there's more than a few self employed people working without paying tax.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

David1979 said:


> And they wonder why most just don't bother registering at all! :suspicious:


On what do you base that? Most people that I know who are here legally have registered. A few have illegal vehicles that they are driving around illegally, but otherwise.


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> On what do you base that? Most people that I know who are here legally have registered. A few have illegal vehicles that they are driving around illegally, but otherwise.


I base that on the non-Spanish that I've encountered thus far in my stay here. Saying that, I've only really encountered younger people who have come here to start business (and who currently run businesses of various sorts). It may be different for those who have come to work for a company.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

David1979 said:


> And they wonder why most just don't bother registering at all! :suspicious:
> 
> Even their system of self-employment is a farce. They make it as difficult as possible for anyone who wishes to start a business legally and contribute.
> 
> I can see me heading for somewhere like Germany or France before long. I've enjoyed my time here as far as the weather and the lifestyle goes, but it's definitely not a place for business.


while I agree about the self-employment system (I'm self-employed - pay my dues) - I really don't understand why people don't want to register

it's just a formality - the financial requirements aren't high - way less than most people could live on - & you _*need *_healthcare provision of one kind or another

and as I said - it's actually EU wide - just that some countries don't enforce it

& there *many *now who just wish they *had *registered....... they'd be getting free healthcare now.........


not to mention a small, non-contributory pension if they've been here 10 years by retirement age

small yes, but better than nothing


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

David1979 said:


> I base that on the non-Spanish that I've encountered thus far in my stay here. Saying that, I've only really encountered younger people who have come here to start business (and who currently run businesses of various sorts). It may be different for those who have come to work for a company.


Of course, it could be that most of those you have encountered are trying to "stay below the radar" because they have something to hide or are trying to hide from somebody or some authority/officialdom.


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

The people I've spoken to who haven't bothered registering usually say that the hassle of actually knowing what is required of them is off-putting, and I can see why.

I've heard so many different versions of what is required to register. Different sums of money, different documents, different timespans on the registration, is it for life? Is it for five years?

It now appears that the official EU website is also wrong! 



baldilocks said:


> Of course, it could be that most of those you have encountered are trying to "stay below the radar" because they have something to hide or are trying to hide from somebody or some authority/officialdom.


It could be I guess, but I don't think so personally.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

David1979 said:


> I base that on the non-Spanish that I've encountered thus far in my stay here. Saying that, I've only really encountered younger people who have come here to start business (and who currently run businesses of various sorts). It may be different for those who have come to work for a company.


tell these people that you've met that if - or more than likely *when *they get caught, the penalties are way worse than paying 50€ a month autónomo when they first start a business


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> tell these people that you've met that if - or more than likely *when *they get caught, the penalties are way worse than paying 50€ a month autónomo when they first start a business


Funnily enough, most of them are fellow photographers!

For example, I was attending a conference in the UK a month or so back. I met a photographer there who does the exact same thing (he was from Leeds I think), and he says that he lives in Valencia, works in the UK and France, and simply pays tax for his UK work!

He still has an "official" address in the UK, and has never bother registering in Spain at all.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

David1979 said:


> Funnily enough, most of them are fellow photographers!
> 
> For example, I was attending a conference in the UK a month or so back. I met a photographer there who does the exact same thing (he was from Leeds I think), and he says that he lives in Valencia, works in the UK and France, and simply pays tax for his UK work!
> 
> He still has an "official" address in the UK, and has never bother registering in Spain at all.


As long as he can prove that he's in Spain for under 183 days and his home is in the UK, thats fine. He's simply a tourist. But if he's cheating, then one day they may well catch up with him and insist he does prove how long he's in spain for - if he cant, then he'll have some back tax to pay. They're getting tough if you try to cheat them

Jo xxx


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

jojo said:


> As long as he can prove that he's in Spain for under 183 days and his home is in the UK, thats fine. He's simply a tourist
> 
> Jo xxx


How can he prove that he is only in Spain for under 183 days a year though? I know that my rental lease is one year at a time, and that's pretty standard, is it not?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

David1979 said:


> How can he prove that he is only in Spain for under 183 days a year though? I know that my rental lease is one year at a time, and that's pretty standard, is it not?


My husband had to produce flight tickets, UK address etc. Fortunately he had the good sense to keep a record of them

Jo xxx


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

David1979 said:


> Funnily enough, most of them are fellow photographers!
> 
> For example, I was attending a conference in the UK a month or so back. I met a photographer there who does the exact same thing (he was from Leeds I think), and he says that he lives in Valencia, works in the UK and France, and simply pays tax for his UK work!
> 
> He still has an "official" address in the UK, and has never bother registering in Spain at all.


Now you know why the authorities are tightening up. 

Many of those who don't bother are running away from something - Police, ex-spouses, Child Support Agency, Civil court orders. They often drive around with illegal vehicles, too (No VEL, no MoT, probably no insurance, maybe even no valid driving licence) The only ones that really come to notice and their cases are published in the press are those whose crimes are quite serious (armed robbery, pædophilia, murder, kidnapping, big drugs, etc.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

David1979 said:


> Funnily enough, most of them are fellow photographers!
> 
> For example, I was attending a conference in the UK a month or so back. I met a photographer there who does the exact same thing (he was from Leeds I think), and he says that he lives in Valencia, works in the UK and France, and simply pays tax for his UK work!
> 
> He still has an "official" address in the UK, and has never bother registering in Spain at all.


I wouldn't want to be him if he's caught


an acquaintance was telling me the other day that he has been working for this company for several years - has somehow only just realised that he's actually been working 'black' 

the company itself isn't registered in Spain - the owner is a brit who isn't registered here nor declaring for tax here but has lived here for years


Hacienda keep sending letters which they file in the bin - they're on to him - the owner, and his company

he's trying to sell his house & get out - but he can't 

I'd hate to live like that


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## David1979 (Feb 15, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> I wouldn't want to be him if he's caught
> 
> 
> an acquaintance was telling me the other day that he has been working for this company for several years - has somehow only just realised that he's actually been working 'black'
> ...


I'm sure there is more to his situation than he told me during our ten minute chat to be honest, but still.


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