# What city in Mexico?



## mtullius

My wife and I (both mid-40s) and our 8-yr-old daughter are planning to move to Mexico for one year (possibly more) in 2018.

My wife's mother is Mexican (from CDMX) though she also lives here in Minnesota, USA, now. My wife has passable Spanish. My Spanish is less good.

Our desire in moving to Mexico is to expose our daughter to life in a different country and to deepen her connection to her Mexican heritage.

We are currently trying to determine where in Mexico we might want to live.

Our criteria include:

-we'd prefer a milder climate, not too hot in the summer.
-we currently live in the central part of a mid-sized American city (St. Paul) and want to live in some sort of city, whether small or large or CDMX-giant.
-accessibility. Somewhere with an airport from which we can get back to Minnesota and other parts of the US to visit without too many connections.

So far we are looking at (with some of what we've considered pro and con about it so far):
-CDMX, probably in some area like Coyoacan (pro: tons to do, tons of opportunities for everything; cons: air pollution)
-Oaxaca City (pros: unique cultural environment, great food; cons: possibly harder to adapt)
-Guadalajara City (pros: big enough to have everything we'd want; cons: ?)
-Puebla City (haven't done enough research yet)
-Guanajuato City (pros: scenic and 'cute'; cons: maybe too small?)
-Morelia (not enough research, though some concerns about living in Michoacan safety-wise)

Any comments on these options, or suggestions for other ones we might consider, are welcome. I'll try to follow along so I can answer follow-up questions etc.

Apologies if there are a million threads asking for this kind of advice (I searched the most recent posts but might have missed some older similar ones)-- happy to be directed to posts that might have similar info.


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## horseshoe846

Time to start taking some vacations in Mexico. (To see for yourself). Even within any given city/locale in Mexico you will find a myriad of differences. You almost have to get down to the Colonia level. Even then ...


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## chicois8

To live in Mexico as a temporary or permeant resident you have to start off by applying at the Mexican Consulate nearest you home in the USA. They will supply you with all the requirements needed for a move...hope this helps.........

Another way to visit Mexico is the tourist route using an FMM, which is good for 180 days but if you plan to work while in Mexico it is prohibited on the FMM only the temp or perm visas......suerte

I would probably pick Guadalajara for weather, size and international airport.......


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## mtullius

We are planning to visit our "finalist" cities, but would like to narrow it down to 2 or 3 or 4 so we're not hopping all over the place....


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## sparks

Guadalajara for sure. Not 7000 feet like CDMX. Everything you might want in shopping and restaurants. Close to Lake Chapala and a reasonable drive to the beach if you want


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## perropedorro

Welcome! Kudos to your thinking this through and doing your homework. You mention air pollution as a concern for CDMX, and while its air is infamous (although much improved in the last 30 years), other large and not-so-large cities aren't so good either. Often it's very localized too, like in Guadalajara where air quality in the N.W. sector is substantially better than in the S and E.-- but sore eyes and a low grade headache still hit me within an hour of my arrival. 
Similar consideration has to be paid to traffic if you need to regularly go from A to B to C, given that, like air pollution, road congestion and vehicular chaos occur in much greater proportion than in any U.S. city of similar size. I drove in L.A. for 25 years and found it far tamer than GDL where traffic is an evil hybrid of the 5th, 7th, and 9th Circles of Hell. Keep doing your research, but be prepared for anything when you get there.


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## horseshoe846

mtullius said:


> We are planning to visit our "finalist" cities, but would like to narrow it down to 2 or 3 or 4 so we're not hopping all over the place....


But from experience I know that OUR wants/needs are significantly different from a lot of people on this forum.Having lived here for going on five years now - if we wanted to relocate - we would NEVER ask the question as to 'where' on a forum such as this. Not that everyone wouldn't express an honest opinion based on their situation - but that there is no way they can assume OUR situation.

You might be better off speaking with a 'professional' realtor in your target location.


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## circle110

_-CDMX, probably in some area like Coyoacan (pro: tons to do, tons of opportunities for everything; cons: air pollution) _
Another con: Cost. Coyoacan is quite a bit more costly than the other places on your list. We have friends that live there and their 2 bedroom apartment costs almost 3 times what our 3 bedroom house in Guanajuato cost -- and they don't even live in the most sought after part of Coyoacan.

_-Puebla City (haven't done enough research yet)_
possible con: Very socially conservative compare to your other city choices. Can get chilly too.

_-Guanajuato City (pros: scenic and 'cute'; cons: maybe too small?)_
We lived here for 5 years and are moving to Queretaro instead because there is indeed a very provincial vibe in the city due its small size. On the upside, the amount of culture is fantastic for the size of the city.

-Morelia (not enough research, though some concerns about living in Michoacan safety-wise)
My wife, a born and raised Mexican, is afraid of Michoacan. I have been there several times and didn't feel any fear, in fact I rather liked it, but I don't push the issue of going there since I don't want my wife to be uncomfortable.


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## dwwhiteside

mtullius said:


> So far we are looking at (with some of what we've considered pro and con about it so far):
> -CDMX, probably in some area like Coyoacan (pro: tons to do, tons of opportunities for everything; cons: air pollution)
> -Oaxaca City (pros: unique cultural environment, great food; cons: possibly harder to adapt)
> -Guadalajara City (pros: big enough to have everything we'd want; cons: ?)
> -Puebla City (haven't done enough research yet)
> -Guanajuato City (pros: scenic and 'cute'; cons: maybe too small?)
> -Morelia (not enough research, though some concerns about living in Michoacan safety-wise)


I don't believe that all of these options meet your stated criteria. You won't find too much in the way of flight options from Oaxaca or Guanajuato. In fact, Guanajuato does not have an international airport, you would have to fly out of Leon. Morelia, maybe just a little more and Puebla maybe a bit more still. But, if the ability to fly back to Minnesota with some regularity and some ease is that important, CDMX and Guadalajara are really the best options.


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## RickS

Actually the Leon airport is on the Guanajuato-side of town and only a short, easy 18 mile-30 minute drive on 4-lane; International flights... not as good nor as cheap as flying out of larger airports like Guadalajara or Mexico City but plenty easy.


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## perropedorro

dwwhiteside said:


> I don't believe that all of these options meet your stated criteria. You won't find too much in the way of flight options from Oaxaca or Guanajuato. In fact, Guanajuato does not have an international airport, you would have to fly out of Leon. Morelia, maybe just a little more and Puebla maybe a bit more still. But, if the ability to fly back to Minnesota with some regularity and some ease is that important, CDMX and Guadalajara are really the best options.


Good points regarding air travel. Probably depends on what frequency people need to get home, and how much time, money, and inconvenience are associated with living in a more out-of-the-way place. CDMX and Guadalajara, along with Vallarta and Cancún certainly offer frequent, competitive airfares, but I couldn't justify being tethered to any of them for a once a year trip NOB. Might be different if I had to return monthly. Air routes to smaller places often come and go, with Volaris currently opening new direct runs, but seemingly on an experimental basis. Unfortunately airports in smaller Mexican cities are often inconvenient, far away, and only offer expensive, infrequent flights. Our pair of sad little airports in the state of Colima are examples. I almost always fly out of GDL, but a 3 hour bus ride isn't too bad.


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## Radita

I think it depends on whether you want a large expat community or not. I've been in Mexico 2 1/2 years and I'm still looking for my "place". I'm in my mid 40's and I was in Sayulita for 2 years (too small and party town) and now I'm in Puerto Vallarta. The air quality here from busses is pretty bad so I'd never live in Mexico City.

I stayed in Guanajuato for 3 weeks last summer and the weather was perfect and I loved it. It does get very chilly in the winter. I didn't meet a single expat (although I think they do exist there, just not in droves). I got a little bored but I'm single and found it difficult to meet people. If I were married with children it would be HIGH on my list, keeping in mind that it's the same altitude at Denver so brrrr in the winter. In Guanajuato it definitely helps to know spanish and/or want to learn. 

Nearby in San Miguel de Allende there is a huge expat community, but most are over 65, it felt like there was less to do there and I didn't like it as much as GTO. I think Oaxaca is a good option. I visited a long time ago and loved it. My feeling is there are a lot more expats there than in GTO.

Personally I'm considering checking out Guadalajara because there's more to do there, it's more educated and for someone my age I think I might have a better time. 

If considering beach towns I hear Playa del Carmen has a thriving expat community closer to your age bracket. They have 3 co-working spaces and several health food stores so that should tell you something. 

San Pancho in Riviera Nayarit is super charming. It's a small town but a really awesome thriving community dedicated to family, healthy living, recycling, art and culture. I love SP! Hot sticky summers yes, but if you have ac and a pool you'll be ok. Oh lake Chapala is supposed to be really nice for expats but I've never been there. 

Good luck in your search!


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## josekoko

I'm thinking CDMX.....Do you think it will work for a 52 year old guy who is tired of the American scene?


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## circle110

josekoko said:


> I'm thinking CDMX.....Do you think it will work for a 52 year old guy who is tired of the American scene?


See my reply in the other thread where you posted for my thoughts. 
If you want to escape the "Ämerican scene", Mexico City is probably the most American-like city in all Mexico after Monterrey. 

Take a trip - visit Mexico City, then travel through the Bajio and see some of those cities and then hit Guadalajara. Somewhere in there I'll bet you will find a place to your liking.


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## citlali

I am curious what is the "American Scene"? What do you want to escape?


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## TundraGreen

citlali said:


> I am curious what is the "American Scene"? What do you want to escape?


That is somewhat similar to my reaction.

It always makes me nervous when people talk about moving somewhere and the focus is on getting away *from* what they are leaving rather than getting *to* where they are going.


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## citlali

I agree , I worked in New York Chicago Los Angeles and all over the west including Alaska and Hawaii, lived in cties and in the middle of nowhere... The US are huge and a lot more varied than Mexico.. unless you speak fluent Spanish and know the culture how do you escape the American scene,?? If you are from the US you are a small part of it and you cannot escape yourself, it is very simple..
I guess you can move to Mexico you can totally change what you are doing and how you live but you can do that in THe US as well..

I agree your chances of being happy are a whole lot better if you move to Mexico because of what you like in Mexico rather than trying to escape another place or yourself..


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## ojosazules11

In his post on "Introduction to the forum" josekoko did indicate a bit both what he wants to get away from and what he is seeking. He says he is "warm, liberal and live for the minutiae of life and the subtleties." He is seeking warm people, a place he can paint, and a place where money is not the main driver in life. Sometimes people are born into a place and culture which is not the best fit for them and they can find a better fit in another country. I wish you well, josekoko, in your journey. You may be able to find what you're seeking in Mexico, but there's no substitution to coming down and seeing for yourself.


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## circle110

I had already read his previous post and it didn't strike me especially as "trying to escape", so I interpreted this post through the lens of having read the other. 

Sometimes you just know there is a better place for you. My life in the US was quite good so I wasn't running away from anything. I just knew that I needed new challenges (and boy did I find them!), so I guess I can relate to Joe's point of view. Plus, I am 100% convinced that an artist can build a life here in Mexico far easier than in the US, especially if you have another income source.


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## TundraGreen

circle110 said:


> I had already read his previous post and it didn't strike me especially as "trying to escape", so I interpreted this post through the lens of having read the other.
> 
> Sometimes you just know there is a better place for you. My life in the US was quite good so I wasn't running away from anything. I just knew that I needed new challenges (and boy did I find them!), so I guess I can relate to Joe's point of view. Plus, I am 100% convinced that an artist can build a life here in Mexico far easier than in the US, especially if you have another income source.


Agreed. I read his post in the Introduction thread, but when I responded here I was mostly reacting to just the part he put in this thread.


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## TundraGreen

For context in my life… 
I have packed up and left family and friends behind permanently four times in my life, once with a new wife, but the other three times completely on my own. In each case it was to go to a different school or a new job. One time I considered moving to Canada, specifically to avoid being drafted during the Vietnam war. I decided not to do that in part because the idea of moving somewhere to get away from something seemed wrong to me. Undoubtedly, my history colors my reaction when I hear someone talking about moving to get away from something.


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## citlali

Because I am involved with artisans I also know many artists in Mexico and very few can make a living. Some can but very few, many have to get jobs teaching or working in other fields. SOme I now refuse to do anything else and they lare extremely poor sometimes half starving and sometimes doing ok when they get gigs in the US or Europe...


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## travelingrae

Radita said:


> I think it depends on whether you want a large expat community or not.


That is a very important consideration. I came to Mexico to be in Mexico and have an immersive experience, so there _not_ being a strong expat community is a plus for me. Mazatlán was therefore too small for me, but Mérida has more promise, although I suspect that I'll only be here long enough to get to PR status before moving to another city where INM isn't so easily accessible and I'm less likely to run into fellow Canadians.

You will always get a very similar list of communities from the expats, but there are other wonderful cities in Mexico to consider where there isn't that foreign presence. If you speak even a modicum of Spanish and are looking for a more immersive experience, there are heaps more locations to consider.

For example, I don't know how many expats in Mazatlán told me not to bother going to Durango for a long weekend because "there was nothing there." Well, I went and discovered a wonderful vibrant city with heaps of museums and culture. I would never be bored living there. It wasn't until I got home that I realised that what the expats meant is that there is nothing there for _them_. I didn't hear a word of English or see a single expat the whole weekend. The only reason I didn't pack up and move to Durango right then and there is that it gets cold (and even snows!) in winter.

Another city I'm considering, but also with concerning weather, is Zacatecas. I have a friend who lives there and he loves it precisely because there is no established expat network.

Someone else mentioned proximity to an airport. That's another reason I like Mérida, since it's easy to get to, with lots of transfers from CDMX. My family in Montreal could also fly very cheaply into Cancún and then take one of the luxury buses to Mérida. So you could look at which Mexican cities you can fly into directly from Minnesota and then branch out from there to see to which cities you could make a quick connection from those airports. You might have more options than you think.


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## josekoko

thank you.....anywhere but here....even though i know i'll still be with me...i like your idea of traveling up to Guadalajara after stopping to visit in CDMX. I've been to Paris and I heard CDMX was modeled after it, in some ways...but I'm not trying to start a battle of opinions..I know it's got a lot more history and influences...I am excited to be around warmer people....my family is one cold group of people....and after 52 years of trying, I don't think anything is going to warm them up.


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## circle110

citlali said:


> Because I am involved with artisans I also know many artists in Mexico and very few can make a living. Some can but very few, many have to get jobs teaching or working in other fields. SOme I now refuse to do anything else and they lare extremely poor sometimes half starving and sometimes doing ok when they get gigs in the US or Europe...


Sorry to proselitize here, but this topic is very near and dear to my heart.

Working with artists has essentially been my life for the last 40 years and I can say that of all the fine artists (fine arts in the sense of "bellas artes") I work with in the US, less than 10% can earn a living as an artist. And I am talking about artists of the highest level of skill and professional achievement.

On the other hand, here in Mexico I would have to put that percentage at more like 70%. Opportunities abound here in comparison to the US. I work 4 times as much in Mexico as in the US and the pay per performance is roughly the same. Factor in the large difference in cost of living and that makes it all the more tenable to make a go of it here.

I do know many struggling fine artists in Mexico, but without fail they are either only modestly skilled or else have no business sense of any kind. Also those with substance abuse issues struggle for obvious reasons. Those who achieve high levels of development and combine that with dependability and some business skills have a lot of doors open to them here.

Once again, pop artists have an even more gruesome outlook in Mexico than in the US and a mediocre fine artist doesn't have much chance anywhere in the world with such stiff competition. But an even semi-business-savvy fine artist who has achieved excellence has many times the opportunities in Mexico as in the US. 

Of course, artisans operate in a whole different world, and the marketing of their craft is completely separate from the fine arts, which are what I am referring to here.

And the OP has another source of income so he isn't trying to earn a full living off of his visual art. For him, Mexico could provide a great place to incubate his artistry. I paint and make prints as a sort of cross training to my music work and I have had many chances to exhibit in Mexico -- and those opportunities came to me, I did not seek them out. In the US I knocked on doors until my knuckles were bloody looking for exhibit opportunities.

So in both music and the visual arts my first hand experience has been that the opportunities in Mexico are far more plentiful than in the US and I know many artists who have moved down here from the US because of that fact and have made a life for themselves that they never could have had NOB.


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## citlali

I live in Chiapas and there are lots of painters and except for Akio they cannot make a decent living.. maybe different up north or in the Yucatan .. I also know a few gallery owners... and sales are extremely slow and that include Mexico City..


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## josekoko

Thank you. You get me. I've had tons and tons of therapy, go to a self-help group and constantly check my intentions and motives...and I'm not doing, best that I can say, for the 'wrong' reasons....
I have always been interested in Latin American culture, having taken the language in high school. I have tried as much as I feel I need to, with my family. I'm not running away from anyone...I want to stay in touch with people and share my adventures.


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## travelingrae

josekoko said:


> Thank you. You get me. I've had tons and tons of therapy, go to a self-help group and constantly check my intentions and motives...and I'm not doing, best that I can say, for the 'wrong' reasons....


You know, my whole life I was told that I needed "help" for not wanting the "normal" things out of life, like a house and career and a family. I just wanted to travel and see the world. I did it "their' way for a long time and was _miserable_. Finally, at 29, I decided that I'd wasted enough of my life, sold everything, bought an RV, and went travelling full-time across the US and Canada for more than five years. Then, I snowbirded in Mexico for a few winters and finally felt like I was "home." I then went to Europe for 10 months (several Balkan countries, Spain, the Netherlands, and English) and the whole time I was living my dream of seeing the world, I was homesick for Mexico. So I came back to North America and just two months later, I was finally back and had my residente temporal card.

Someone mentioned that sometimes we are born into a country that doesn't fit our values. That's how I feel about Canada. I've always been an alien there, but it's easier in Mexico to find people who share my values and understand that the accumulation of money isn't a particularly good yardstick for measuring true wealth and happiness.

I think we are better judges of what will make us happy than most people we are close to will give us credit for. So come, see what Mexico's all about, and, please, please, please don't judge the whole country on the first place you land. Just as there are enormous variations across the US, it is also true for Mexico. One thing I love about being here on a RT is that I can now take my time and slowly explore Mexico the way I did Canada and the US without having to travel back and forth to Canada. So there might be another RV in my future...


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## travelingrae

josekoko said:


> I have always been interested in Latin American culture, having taken the language in high school. I have tried as much as I feel I need to, with .


Also, based on your responses thus far, I'd highly recommend Latin America and not Spain for you. For one thing, the cost of living there is much higher. But it's also a very regimented society and it seems to lack the vibrancy of Mexico. I made a Mexican friend there who said the same thing -- Spain is like an antiseptic Mexico, lacking the colours, the odours, and the cacophony that make Mexico so special. I lived for two months in the "real" Spain well off the tourist track and it was not for me. I felt culture shock there, something I've never once felt in Mexico. The only reason Spain is attractive to me is that it would be an easy gateway to a European Union passport since I have my own business and they have a residency scheme for the self-employed not unlike the RT in Mexico that leads to citizenship in about 10 years.

The other nice thing about Mexico is that it's so easily and quickly accessible from the US and Canada since you can drive there and you're on similar time zones to folks "back home."


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## TundraGreen

travelingrae said:


> Also, based on your responses thus far, I'd highly recommend Latin America and not Spain for you. For one thing, the cost of living there is much higher. But it's also a very regimented society and it seems to lack the vibrancy of Mexico. I made a Mexican friend there who said the same thing -- Spain is like an antiseptic Mexico, lacking the colours, the odours, and the cacophony that make Mexico so special. I lived for two months in the "real" Spain well off the tourist track and it was not for me. I felt culture shock there, something I've never once felt in Mexico. The only reason Spain is attractive to me is that it would be an easy gateway to a European Union passport since I have my own business and they have a residency scheme for the self-employed not unlike the RT in Mexico that leads to citizenship in about 10 years.
> 
> The other nice thing about Mexico is that it's so easily and quickly accessible from the US and Canada since you can drive there and you're on similar time zones to folks "back home."


I agree with your comments comparing Spain and Mexico. I have never lived in Spain, but three times I spent a month walking through rural areas in Spain. It is a great place to walk. The countryside is delightful, and the villages are spaced closely enough to be convenient for travel on foot. But it is not Mexico, nor anything like it for all the reasons you mention.


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## Isla Verde

circle110 said:


> Sorry to proselitize here, but this topic is very near and dear to my heart.
> 
> Working with artists has essentially been my life for the last 40 years and I can say that of all the fine artists (fine arts in the sense of "bellas artes") I work with in the US, less than 10% can earn a living as an artist. And I am talking about artists of the highest level of skill and professional achievement.
> 
> On the other hand, here in Mexico I would have to put that percentage at more like 70%. Opportunities abound here in comparison to the US. I work 4 times as much in Mexico as in the US and the pay per performance is roughly the same. Factor in the large difference in cost of living and that makes it all the more tenable to make a go of it here.
> 
> I do know many struggling fine artists in Mexico, but without fail they are either only modestly skilled or else have no business sense of any kind. Also those with substance abuse issues struggle for obvious reasons. Those who achieve high levels of development and combine that with dependability and some business skills have a lot of doors open to them here.
> 
> Once again, pop artists have an even more gruesome outlook in Mexico than in the US and a mediocre fine artist doesn't have much chance anywhere in the world with such stiff competition. But an even semi-business-savvy fine artist who has achieved excellence has many times the opportunities in Mexico as in the US.
> 
> Of course, artisans operate in a whole different world, and the marketing of their craft is completely separate from the fine arts, which are what I am referring to here.
> 
> And the OP has another source of income so he isn't trying to earn a full living off of his visual art. For him, Mexico could provide a great place to incubate his artistry. I paint and make prints as a sort of cross training to my music work and I have had many chances to exhibit in Mexico -- and those opportunities came to me, I did not seek them out. In the US I knocked on doors until my knuckles were bloody looking for exhibit opportunities.
> 
> So in both music and the visual arts my first hand experience has been that the opportunities in Mexico are far more plentiful than in the US and I know many artists who have moved down here from the US because of that fact and have made a life for themselves that they never could have had NOB.


I wonder if the fact that you are a foreigner has had some influence on the professional success you have enjoyed in Mexico.


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## travelingrae

TundraGreen said:


> I agree with your comments comparing Spain and Mexico. I have never lived in Spain, but three times I spent a month walking through rural areas in Spain. It is a great place to walk. The countryside is delightful, and the villages are spaced closely enough to be convenient for travel on foot. But it is not Mexico, nor anything like it for all the reasons you mention.


I find it very bizarre that my quote was edited to change my spelling to American... 

But anyway, another thing about Spain is the food was incredibly bland. I was surprised since I'd heard such praise of it, but nothing really stood out. Again, I was living in the "real" Spain, so eating what the locals ate. It was all very tasty, but really nothing special. Even the most pedestrian food in Mexico is bursting with layers of flavour. Ironically, the most memorable meal I ate in Spain was at a Mexican restaurant that came the closest to reproducing the essence of Mexican cuisine than any other "Mexican" restaurant I've visited outside of Mexico! I almost cried when I was served corn tortillas and the server offered me chiles curtidos. :lol:


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## circle110

Isla Verde said:


> I wonder if the fact that you are a foreigner has had some influence on the professional success you have enjoyed in Mexico.


Yes and no. I've noticed that it cuts both ways.
Yes, in that being a foreigner gives you a little cachet. It makes you slightly exotic and therefore a bit easier to promote.

No, in the sense that it is nearly impossible to truly get inside the cliques of Mexican artists, in spite of marrying into the culture and speaking the language well. Also, many opportunities go to Mexican artists simply because they are Mexican, which is as it should be. There are several state sponsored touring packages that only are awarded to Mexican citizens. No complaints here - a country should take care of its own.

The biggest reason I see for the opportunities is that there is a base of governmental support for art music. Government entities in every city, even the little "casas de cultura" in most pueblos, have budgetary funding that they need to spend each year; a use it or lose it kind of thing. So, they are eagerly seeking quality artists to fill out their seasonal programs. If you are good and can create a quality submission, you can obtain work.

Also, there is a proportionally large number of professional symphony orchestras that pay a full living wage salary -- not great, but livable. Every state has their own and there are a number of others as well. There are some 40-50 professionally staffed orchestras in Mexico (population ~125 million) compared to 20 that pay a livable full-time salary in the US (pop. ~325 million). This creates a larger network of musicians and when people network, they create more opportunities for themselves.


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## josekoko

Maybe I AM trying to escape some things. 
I'm not trying to escape anything I haven't tried fixing, first. 
I have tried and tried. Some people are just sociopaths. Some cultures are good breeding grounds for sociopathic behavior. Capitalism is one of them. I'm tired of living in a capitalistic/militaristic industrial-driven nation - and living with the people who take a lot of pride in 'these colors don't run'...as if starting wars every 10 years is anything to be proud of...not that people aren't just as greedy in other nations....but I think the Latin American sentiment and culture IS different. 
I'm going to at least check it out. 
But I've spent 52 years trying to work with materialists...and they ARE sociopaths in disguise, imho. Some people and cultures are takers and exploiters...remember the Monroe Doctrine...we've never stopped, have we, really, in our quest for dominance? 
I'm sick of that mentality.
iI 'served' my country for 4 years; I didn't dodge a draft like our two most recent greedy Republican presidents...so it isn't about me being a complete pacifist. We've gotten out of hand in our priorities, as a nation.


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## circle110

josekoko said:


> Maybe I AM trying to escape some things.
> I'm not trying to escape anything I haven't tried fixing, first.
> I have tried and tried. Some people are just sociopaths. Some cultures are good breeding grounds for sociopathic behavior. Capitalism is one of them. I'm tired of living in a capitalistic/militaristic industrial-driven nation - and living with the people who take a lot of pride in 'these colors don't run'...as if starting wars every 10 years is anything to be proud of...not that people aren't just as greedy in other nations....but I think the Latin American sentiment and culture IS different.
> I'm going to at least check it out.
> But I've spent 52 years trying to work with materialists...and they ARE sociopaths in disguise, imho. Some people and cultures are takers and exploiters...remember the Monroe Doctrine...we've never stopped, have we, really, in our quest for dominance?
> I'm sick of that mentality.
> iI 'served' my country for 4 years; I didn't dodge a draft like our two most recent greedy Republican presidents...so it isn't about me being a complete pacifist. We've gotten out of hand in our priorities, as a nation.


Joe, I really do think you just might find your space in Mexico. But don't kid yourself that Mexico isn't capitalistic, materialistic and industrial-driven (militaristic, not so much). It is a full-on Western culture with all those trappings included.

That said, there is a marked difference here in the people and in the zeitgeist. I feel it all the more strongly because I lived here 5 years, then had to move back to the US for 3 years, and now I'm back (for good). I don't hate the US by any stretch and my family and most of my best friends are, of course, Americans. But for me, living in Mexico makes me feel more alive and so here I'll happily stay barring something unforeseen.


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## josekoko

circle110 said:


> Joe, I really do think you just might find your space in Mexico. But don't kid yourself that Mexico isn't capitalistic, materialistic and industrial-driven (militaristic, not so much). It is a full-on Western culture with all those trappings included.
> 
> That said, there is a marked difference here in the people and in the zeitgeist. I feel it all the more strongly because I lived here 5 years, then had to move back to the US for 3 years, and now I'm back (for good). I don't hate the US by any stretch and my family and most of my best friends are, of course, Americans. But for me, living in Mexico makes me feel more alive and so here I'll happily stay barring something unforeseen.


Thanks. I really get it...about people being into their 'stuff'...no matter where they are. 
And I apologize to anyone for making a polarizing statement about 'our last two presidents'....I am not aligned with either party...and they've all made a ton of mistakes...and I think some of their intentions are good, too. I asked the administrator to remove that polarizing statement. 

But thanks for the answer and comments...they are appreciated. I know I am just like the people I point the finger at...in my own materialism and idealism.....and I know how dumb I really am. I'm trying to pay attention to cues, though....and it seems to me like I'm sort of an alien in this culture.


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## citlali

When you move to a foreign culture you escape the pressure of your own culture, you escaae the "this is what is expected of you " so you can reinvent yourself and you can also pick the people you hang aroound wether they would be acceptable in your own culture..So it is good but it can also make you feel like a martien because you are not part of the old culture anymore but you not part of the new culture either...


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## travelingrae

citlali said:


> When you move to a foreign culture you escape the pressure of your own culture, you escaae the "this is what is expected of you " so you can reinvent yourself and you can also pick the people you hang aroound wether they would be acceptable in your own culture..So it is good but it can also make you feel like a martien because you are not part of the old culture anymore but you not part of the new culture either...


This is precisely why I like living in Mexico. I always felt like a "Martian" back in Canada. I just didn't "fit." Here, it's expected that I won't - and likely never will - fit so there is so much less pressure and I can live according to my own values and dreams. But I still have to watch who I surround myself with and that it's not a group of expats that are the people I was trying to get away from.


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## citlali

I do not fit anywhere and I really do not care..that makes me exotic or the enemy.. Josekoko.. I remember living in Alabama when I first came from France and I got caught up on the street in some Baptist event... the people were very friendly to me and since I was French , I was exotic until they found out I sold wine...horror of horror..


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## josekoko

citlali said:


> I do not fit anywhere and I really do not care..that makes me exotic or the enemy.. Josekoko.. I remember living in Alabama when I first came from France and I got caught up on the street in some Baptist event... the people were very friendly to me and since I was French , I was exotic until they found out I sold wine...horror of horror..



Vous êtes originaire de France? Tres bien! J'ai pris deux ans de français dans mon école, mais je ne peux pas le parler tres bien, maintenant. 

I never felt more at home than when I visited Paris. If I could afford it, I'd consider living there. 

But I'm sort of glad the fates are leading me where they are....

Btw, you can write that you would be fine, 'being exotic' anywhere. And I guess you thrived in sweet home Alabama. But I just left Eastern Washington, before heading to the Seattle side of the state again...and I have a feeling you wouldn't like the it there....there are a lot of people who either look like they're meth addicts or they believe that one must breed, constantly.


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## Isla Verde

citlali said:


> When you move to a foreign culture you escape the pressure of your own culture, you escaae the "this is what is expected of you " so you can reinvent yourself and you can also pick the people you hang aroound wether they would be acceptable in your own culture..So it is good but it can also make you feel like a martien because you are not part of the old culture anymore but you not part of the new culture either...


Because I grew up culturally Jewish in a place with very few Jews, I always felt "between cultures" to a certain extant. Perhaps that's why I enjoy living in Mexico where I am and am not part of the Mexican way of life.


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## citlali

I worked in the 13 western States in the US including Hawaii and Alaska and yes that included Washington..as I said I never was part of any of it but I enjoyed passing through except for the weather in Seattle and Portland..I lived part of the time in LA part of the time in San Francisco and on the line between Napa and Sonoma country.. I also lived in Santa Cruz , ca for a short time.. some places I liked more than others..
I enjoyed growing up in Paris but I left a long time ago because I did not want to live there.. now I could not afford it..or not the way I would like to live there.. but there are plenty of other places in the world. There are pluses and minuses everywhere including Mexico.. so make the best of where ever you end up.. Mexico is sure a change from Eastern Washington , that is for sure..


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## wkelley

We are actively looking at Queretaro. It's got a nice colonial center, good private schools, all the US type amenities...chain restaurants, big box stores, and an Int'l airport with daily connections to Houston & Dallas. Summer's are mild and they've got a pretty large int'l expat community. Good luck!


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## circle110

wkelley said:


> We are actively looking at Queretaro. It's got a nice colonial center, good private schools, all the US type amenities...chain restaurants, big box stores, and an Int'l airport with daily connections to Houston & Dallas. Summer's are mild and they've got a pretty large int'l expat community. Good luck!


We are getting ready for our move to Queretaro as well. Have you had any contact with the expat group there? Their website hasn't been updated for a long time and I tried to contact them a few weeks ago via email and the contact form on their website but got no response. I fear they may have disbanded.


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## wkelley

No luck with QRO Newcomers Club. I've sent several inquiries and none were answered.


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## circle110

wkelley said:


> No luck with QRO Newcomers Club. I've sent several inquiries and none were answered.


Well, maybe we'll just have to start our own!


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## Me Linda

I love all the different perspectives in this post. The posters respond thru their own unique social lenses which is what makes us individuals and makes the world interesting. My experience is I was raised in a town in the USA that was 70% Mexican. I was teethed on tortillas. After 35 years I moved away to a different state . I saw the escalation of rage and tension . You honk someone pulls out a gun . Three weeks before I moved here to Mexico , 2 blocks from my house , 3 toothless wonders got into a fight over who paid for the gas for the monster truck . Of course they were all carrying guns, they pulled them out and shot each other . I came down here and immediately felt like I was back home , This is the culture I grew up in the USA. Home is where your heart is and where people love you for you. You will find ?


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## UrbanMan

josekoko said:


> Maybe I AM trying to escape some things.


To voluntarily make a change, you have to have some level of discontent with your current circumstances. Otherwise, you'd never voluntarily change. My 10-cent deep thought for the day.

I am feeling a kinship to Josekoko, as I am a single man of about the same age, and am now just a few months away from leaving the good ol' usa for Mexico. I've pondered the move for a few years now, and finally a lot of details/factors have lined up such that I am pushing ahead with it.

My decision is I will go to Guadalajara, at least initially. I've visited the city, and liked it a lot (even when it poured rain it was okay), and importantly I liked it a lot more than anywhere else I've experienced in MX. Every else in Mexico has been too small, too many expats whose age is more than 15 years different than mine, and/or dangerous feeling.

I'll rent (I would never own property in MX, the country is just not that stable), so if GDL for some reason ends up not doing it for me, I will be mobile. Based on what I've read in this forum, sounds like living in the NW quarter of GDL is the thing to do, the air is reputed to be generally cleaner. Still want to be somewhat central though, as sleepy suburbs are not my bag.

I'm doing this all-in, as in I will not be maintaining a physical base of any sort in the USA. Load up the car, and drive down. Mexico will be country number five for me, so (I hope) I have a good handle on what it takes to land somewhere new and make it work.

Además, hablo algo de espanol. Es algo que trabajo en diario (aprendizaje basado en internet), para el momento en que llega este otono, sera aun mejor.


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## TundraGreen

UrbanMan said:


> To voluntarily make a change, you have to have some level of discontent with your current circumstances. Otherwise, you'd never voluntarily change. My 10-cent deep thought for the day.
> 
> I am feeling a kinship to Josekoko, as I am a single man of about the same age, and am now just a few months away from leaving the good ol' usa for Mexico. I've pondered the move for a few years now, and finally a lot of details/factors have lined up such that I am pushing ahead with it.
> 
> My decision is I will go to Guadalajara, at least initially. I've visited the city, and liked it a lot (even when it poured rain it was okay), and importantly I liked it a lot more than anywhere else I've experienced in MX. Every else in Mexico has been too small, too many expats whose age is more than 15 years different than mine, and/or dangerous feeling.
> 
> I'll rent (I would never own property in MX, the country is just not that stable), so if GDL for some reason ends up not doing it for me, I will be mobile. Based on what I've read in this forum, sounds like living in the NW quarter of GDL is the thing to do, the air is reputed to be generally cleaner. Still want to be somewhat central though, as sleepy suburbs are not my bag.
> 
> I'm doing this all-in, as in I will not be maintaining a physical base of any sort in the USA. Load up the car, and drive down. Mexico will be country number five for me, so (I hope) I have a good handle on what it takes to land somewhere new and make it work.
> 
> Además, hablo algo de espanol. Es algo que trabajo en diario (aprendizaje basado en internet), para el momento en que llega este otono, sera aun mejor.


I think you are making a good choice with Guadalajara, but I may be biased .

The NW part of Guadalajara is called Zapopan. It is the wealthiest part of town, although it is a large section and includes some variety. If you like expensive gated compounds, high rise condominiums and expensive shopping malls, Zapopan is definitely the right kind of place. Guadalajara is composed of lots of small villages that grew and merged to make one big metropolitan zone. Living near the center of one of those barrios can be a more "Mexican" experience. They generally have a central plaza and church, and a market that operates either continuously or on a regular day each week.


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## circle110

UrbanMan said:


> (I would never own property in MX, the country is just not that stable)


I wouldn't agree with that. I was thrilled to off load my US house a few months ago. I know of a lot more people who have been burned by real estate in the US than in Mexico. A lot more.



UrbanMan said:


> I'll rent, so if GDL for some reason ends up not doing it for me, I will be mobile.


Now there you have a truly excellent reason to not buy.


I think Guadalajara is a great choice. I would live there in a minute but it's too far from my wife's family in Mexico City for easy visits so it's out of the question for us.


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## UrbanMan

TundraGreen said:


> The NW part of Guadalajara is called Zapopan. It is the wealthiest part of town, although it is a large section and includes some variety. If you like expensive gated compounds, high rise condominiums and expensive shopping malls, Zapopan is definitely the right kind of place.


I am not sure I like those things, at least what they mean in the usa. My understanding is that what is an "expensive gated compound" in the GDL area is not at all the same as what it is in the usa (some exceptions obviously). One GDL-based blogger I stumbled across wrote that many moderately priced and sized properties (apartment buildings) have gates/walls, and bars on windows, simply because of crime. Its more about safety than snobbery. Would you agree?

I do have to be honest with myself, I will want a decent quality of infrastructure. The newer the building, the more likely it is the plumbing, electrical, etc, will be of a good standard. Non paper-thin walls, windows that work. Plus I will have a car, meaning a secure parking spot is a requirement.



UrbanMan said:


> Still want to be somewhat central though, as sleepy suburbs are not my bag.





TundraGreen said:


> Living near the center of one of those barrios can be a more "Mexican" experience.


I am aiming for a strong dose of Mexican experience. While I would like to know some fellow expats, I have no interest in the "expat bubble" life.


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## TundraGreen

UrbanMan said:


> I am not sure I like those things, at least what they mean in the usa. My understanding is that what is an "expensive gated compound" in the GDL area is not at all the same as what it is in the usa (some exceptions obviously). One GDL-based blogger I stumbled across wrote that many moderately priced and sized properties (apartment buildings) have gates/walls, and bars on windows, simply because of crime. Its more about safety than snobbery. Would you agree?
> 
> I do have to be honest with myself, I will want a decent quality of infrastructure. The newer the building, the more likely it is the plumbing, electrical, etc, will be of a good standard. Non paper-thin walls, windows that work. Plus I will have a car, meaning a secure parking spot is a requirement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am aiming for a strong dose of Mexican experience. While I would like to know some fellow expats, I have no interest in the "expat bubble" life.


Pretty much every property has walls and bars on the windows. In the city, houses either have interior patios, or small yards within walls. The only US style houses with open yards are in gated compounds. Old houses with thin walls? Often not a problem. My house is over 100 years old and the walls are two feet thick, all adobe. A lot of the older houses in Centro have been converted to allow a garage for a car. Mine hasn't, but that was an advantage for me, since I have no interest in cars. I do have a motorcycle now but it comes in through the front door and parks in a spare bedroom. With a gated compound, you end up having to get in your car to go everywhere. I can walk two minutes to the mercado for almost all of my needs: groceries, hardware, haircut, bakery, etc.

It would be good to check out the different options for lifestyle. Unlike the US, it is possible in Mexico to walk to most things. You can keep a car for when you want to take a trip or something, without having to use it to go to the store for a few bananas or the hardware store for a few nuts and screws. But you have to choose where you live.


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## horseshoe846

The first year we were here we rented a house in a gated community. On all four sides the house had tall walls. From within the two story house there was no view of anything except walls. It drove me bonkers. Sure - the house was in an extremely convenient location and we could walk to a lot of places - but if we went shopping - except for the smallest of purchases - we still needed to take the car. The other thing - being so centrally located there also were a lot of restaurants and cantinas and bars which on weekends (particularly) blasted music until the early morning hours.

We ended up buying in a more removed gated community - at a higher elevation and further 'out of town'. Most of the houses in our community are 'open' - which was one of the things that attracted us most to it. When you walk in our front door and look straight ahead - you can see for many many miles. Sure - it would take us 20 minutes to drive to the house we rented. 

For sure - before anyone buys a property bounded on all sides by tall walls - they should try it before they buy it. If we were to ever consider living in a NON-gated community I would never live in a house which did NOT have very tall walls, barbed wire, electrified fencing and a house alarm - perhaps dogs. But that is just me.


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## Isla Verde

horseshoe846 said:


> . . . Sure - the house was in an extremely convenient location and we could walk to a lot of places - but if we went shopping - except for the smallest of purchases - we still needed to take the car.



I'm confused. To me, "an extremely convenient location" means that you can walk almost anywhere you need to go on a daily basis. What was so convenient about your former home's location?


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## josekoko

Thank you, Isla Verde, for articulating what I was wondering. I like specifics.


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## horseshoe846

Isla Verde said:


> I'm confused. To me, "an extremely convenient location" means that you can walk almost anywhere you need to go on a daily basis. What was so convenient about your former home's location?


If we needed a quart of milk it was only a five minute walk.
There were many restaurants within a 10 minute walk.
We like to walk first thing in the morning - every morning - and there was a walking/jogging trail (perhaps a couple miles long) within 5 minutes of the house. 
There was also city water/sewer which is in contrast to our current well/septic.
Cell phone reception was much better than what we have now.
We had fiber-optic cable as opposed to our current 20 MBs.

These are probably things you folks who live in city apartments never consider ?

But still - we would never consider trading what we have now.


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## Isla Verde

josekoko said:


> Thank you, Isla Verde, for articulating what I was wondering. I like specifics.


Me too! 

I'm lucky to live in a super-convenient location and can walk to the supermarket, the pharmacy, the Sunday tianguis, the laundromat, Office Depot, the post office, my bank, my "estilista", lots of cafés and small non-chain restaurants, a private health clinic, and just a few months ago I found a great dentist, just around the corner from my flat.


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## horseshoe846

Isla Verde said:


> Me too!
> 
> I'm lucky to live in a super-convenient location and can walk to the supermarket, the pharmacy, the Sunday tianguis, the laundromat, Office Depot, the post office, my bank, my "estilista", lots of cafés and small non-chain restaurants, a private health clinic, and just a few months ago I found a great dentist, just around the corner from my flat.


We are very different people. We LOVE Mexico City and visit it often.

If we lived were you live we walk probably walk most every morning (at daybreak) up Reforma almost to Polanco (through the park). Have you ever done that ? Convenience for us is not the ability to get done what we need without the use of a car - but rather to have access to the things we want in our life. Just sayin'


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## Tinaco

Guadalajara has a lot of western amenities and good medical care, however the traffic and pollution in my opinion make it a very stressful place to live. The public transport is not great either. The road system looks like it's been designed by people who have no idea what they are doing. 
I would not move there without visiting and staying for at least a couple of months.


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## citlali

I find Guadalajara very easy to drive around.. The traffic is a nightmare during rush hours like any big city but I do not think it is that poorly designed.. Yes it is good idea to work near where you live or like Tundragreen not to have a car.
Once in a while I have to go to Andares Mall for meeting and I think I hate that part of town the most.. I like the Providencia area but Zapopan no thanks ..


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## horseshoe846

citlali said:


> I find Guadalajara very easy to drive around.. The traffic is a nightmare during rush hours like any big city but I do not think it is that poorly designed.. Yes it is good idea to work near where you live or like Tundragreen not to have a car.
> Once in a while I have to go to Andares Mall for meeting and I think I hate that part of town the most.. I like the Providencia area but Zapopan no thanks ..


I don't know but I think you are a woman. By far - the most dangerous person on the road is a female driver trying to get her kids to school. 

I have been to my fair share of places in this world - and GDL ranks very high in terrible driving experiences - particularly those gloriettas.


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## circle110

horseshoe846 said:


> I don't know but I think you are a woman. By far - the most dangerous person on the road is a female driver trying to get her kids to school.


I think you've been on this forum long enough to know citali is a woman - she does not try to hide the fact. Was this comment really necessary or helpful?



horseshoe846 said:


> I have been to my fair share of places in this world - and GDL ranks very high in terrible driving experiences - particularly those gloriettas.


Glorietas are easy to manage for those who know how to use them. The US is one of the few places in the world where they are rarely implemented.

Considering the size of the city, I have found Guadalajara surprisingly direveable... unlike CDMX.


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## travelingrae

TundraGreen said:


> Pretty much every property has walls and bars on the windows.


This is cultural and can be traced back thousands of years to north African and Middle Eastern cultures being brought into Spain, which was then brought to the American. Houses in the parts of Spain that I've lived are very much like houses in Mexico, gated and with rejas (bars).

The cultures that had rejas lived in hot climates, so may did not have window coverings or doors. The rejas didn't just keep bad people out -- they also kept out livestock and children in.

Personally, I loved having rejas at my old house because I never had to worry about closing the windows when I went out (I just made sure there was nothing within grabbing reach of the windows!). I didn't have AC and if I went away for a weekend, I was able to keep the air flow in the house and keep it from getting musty in my absence. The house where I'm living now relies only on a high wall for security and doesn't have any rejas, which I think is a shame. Having rejas is a non-negotiable as I'm house hunting this summer and having a walled property would be a bonus.


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## citlali

The glorietas in Mexico are easy, try the Arc of Triumph in Paris for fun.. or try drinving in some of the cities in the Far East.. now those are challenging.. 
Ja ja try a woman trying to get her kids to school in Bangkok.. I do not have a problem driving anywhere in Mexico as long as I have a co-pilot.. it gets challenging driving in CDMX when you do not know where you are going, same in Guadalajara but otherwise driving in Mexico is pretty easy.


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## Isla Verde

citlali said:


> The glorietas in Mexico are easy, try the Arc of Triumph in Paris for fun.. or try drinving in some of the cities in the Far East.. now those are challenging..
> Ja ja try a woman trying to get her kids to school in Bangkok.. I do not have a problem driving anywhere in Mexico as long as I have a co-pilot.. it gets challenging driving in CDMX when you do not know where you are going, same in Guadalajara but otherwise driving in Mexico is pretty easy.


You are a woman of many talents, citlali!


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## UrbanMan

I'm not that worried about transportation in GDL, big city issues exist of course, but I have experience handling that. Some combo of walking (aiming to have a good assortment nearby my home, balanced with not having too much noise), public buses, as well as driving occasionally. And uber - which I have read is now very much a big thing in GDL.

I would very much like to hear about getting to know locals genuinely as friends, as a single man what the landscape is like as far as women is concerned (hope this can be addressed without everyone getting all weird about it), and related social aspects.


----------



## TundraGreen

UrbanMan said:


> I'm not that worried about transportation in GDL, big city issues exist of course, but I have experience handling that. Some combo of walking (aiming to have a good assortment nearby my home, balanced with not having too much noise), public buses, as well as driving occasionally. And uber - which I have read is now very much a big thing in GDL.
> 
> I would very much like to hear about getting to know locals genuinely as friends, as a single man what the landscape is like as far as women is concerned (hope this can be addressed without everyone getting all weird about it), and related social aspects.


I have been here 10 years now. And over time, my collection of friends has gradually grown. Families are quite close in Mexico and for many, their primary social interaction is with their family. So many do not spend much time socializing outside of their family. But not all. It takes time and effort, but if you want to meet people with time for non-family, you can. I would say there are four people that I see and do things with every week. Two are Mexican women, one is a Mexican man, and the fourth is a guy from the US. Curiously, I met him through another Mexican friend.


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## citlali

Yes It is not that easy to make friends here.. it took me a long time to have Mexican friends . As Tundragreen says people socialize with their family and extended family not unlike France..If you work with Mexicans then it is easier to meet people and make friends.


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## circle110

citlali said:


> If you work with Mexicans then it is easier to meet people and make friends.


Definitely, I have found this to be very true. 

However, UrbanMan, I and a lot of expats I know have married or had significant others that were Mexican so it can and does happen and it actually seems to work out pretty well. Casual "dating" is not so much the norm here, though. Old school courtship remains much more in fashion in Mexico. None of these "rules" are 100% but that is just my observation.

I did meet my wife essentially through my work, so what Citali says was true in my case.


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## travelingrae

citlali said:


> Yes It is not that easy to make friends here.. it took me a long time to have Mexican friends . As Tundragreen says people socialize with their family and extended family not unlike France..If you work with Mexicans then it is easier to meet people and make friends.


I'm glad to know this. I've found it very easy to be friendly with Mexicans, but I've yet to have any success making an actual friend. I was on holidays in Durango once and met a gal my age who was also travelling alone. We ended up spending two days exploring together and had an absolute blast. So I thought that since she lived close to where I did in Mazatlán, surely she'd want to get together after the trip. But I never heard from her again.

Another Mexican gal I met, in a sleepy English village of all places, told me that what I need to do is go attend classes at university to both bolster my Spanish skills and to force me to interact with and meet Mexicans. She said if I take night courses, I'm more likely to meet other "mature" students who are closer to my age, but that even meeting younger kids would open the door to meeting their older siblings or even parents. I hope she's right!


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## travelingrae

circle110 said:


> Old school courtship remains much more in fashion in Mexico.


My experience with romance in Mexico is taxi drivers being awed that a Canadian woman their age is travelling alone in their country and is single and proposing marriage after a 10-minute chat. I've had this happen four times in about 12 months spent in Mexico :lol:


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## TundraGreen

travelingrae said:


> My experience with romance in Mexico is taxi drivers being awed that a Canadian woman their age is travelling alone in their country and is single and proposing marriage after a 10-minute chat. I've had this happen four times in about 12 months spent in Mexico :lol:


I know a woman who had similar experiences. Taxi drivers were alway asking her for dates. She dated one of them a few times.


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## Isla Verde

travelingrae said:


> My experience with romance in Mexico is taxi drivers being awed that a Canadian woman their age is travelling alone in their country and is single and proposing marriage after a 10-minute chat. I've had this happen four times in about 12 months spent in Mexico :lol:


Wow, that has never happened to me. What am I doing wrong?


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## travelingrae

Isla Verde said:


> Wow, that has never happened to me. What am I doing wrong?


Not getting into taxis driven by single men your own age?


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## Isla Verde

travelingrae said:


> Not getting into taxis driven by single men your own age?



Good point! I rarely take taxis and I doubt there are many taxi-drivers in Mexico City in my age group. Also, while I'm friendly, over all the years I've spent in Mexico, I've learned not to be too chatty with male strangers.


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## Me Linda

LOL don't feel too bad isla verde before I took that date I would hail another taxi and follow him home to check for a wife and six kids . I digress from topic sorry.


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## travelingrae

Me Linda said:


> LOL don't feel too bad isla verde before I took that date I would hail another taxi and follow him home to check for a wife and six kids .


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## UrbanMan

Isla Verde said:


> What am I doing wrong?





Isla Verde said:


> Also, while I'm friendly, over all the years I've spent in Mexico, I've learned not to be too chatty with male strangers.


Question asked and answered.


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## circle110

travelingrae said:


> My experience with romance in Mexico is taxi drivers being awed that a Canadian woman their age is travelling alone in their country and is single and proposing marriage after a 10-minute chat. I've had this happen four times in about 12 months spent in Mexico :lol:


I believe it. Machismo is still alive and well in Mexico. I have not seen that technique of those taxi drivers be particularly effective, but I guess I can't blame them for taking a shot during their brief interaction with you!

I guess my perspective is based on coming at the issue from the other side of the equation and since I was commenting to a guy, I stand by it. He'll have more success finding a Mexican lady friend if he plays the caballero as opposed to the macho, trust me. And as mentioned earlier, the better you Spanish skills, the more your options expand. 
Of course, if you have looks like William Levy, you are good to go no matter what level of Spanish you speak and how you approach the situation!

Social, cultural and economic realities can really change the dating dynamic...
I spent 4 months working in Nicaragua and I got 4 marriage proposals in my first week there -- all from 19-20 year old girls!! And I was 48 at the time!


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## UrbanMan

travelingrae said:


> Another Mexican gal I met, in a sleepy English village of all places, told me that what I need to do is go attend classes at university to both bolster my Spanish skills and to force me to interact with and meet Mexicans. She said if I take night courses, I'm more likely to meet other "mature" students who are closer to my age, but that even meeting younger kids would open the door to meeting their older siblings or even parents. I hope she's right!


I've heard the "take classes" advice, but its never resonated with me as valid. I spent a few years taking night classes, I was so busy with work and the studying combined, the last thing I was open to was expanding my social life.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned web-based approaches. In the usa now, for socializing of all kinds, there are web sites. I'll also observe no one except me mentioned uber when the transportation topic was being discussed ... maybe the contributors here are not that hip to tech solutions?



circle110 said:


> Casual "dating" is not so much the norm here, though. Old school courtship remains much more in fashion in Mexico.


If your saying that what some people call _hookups_ are not the thing, thats okay, as for reasons of health, that's not a good way of life. But - how old school is old school? If your telling me its the 1950s down there, I may have to completely change my plans. I'm not really believing this, though, as my web research indicates there are in fact local women who prefer foreign men, as we can be less slimy than mexican men (ie. such as cab drivers who proposition 1/2 their female passengers, possibly while having a wife and kids at home). Also, we tend to have a bit of money, which of course has mattered to women all over the planet for as long as there has been money ...


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## Isla Verde

Me Linda said:


> LOL don't feel too bad isla verde before I took that date I would hail another taxi and follow him home to check for a wife and six kids . I digress from topic sorry.


Don't worry, Me Linda. I was only joking. You can be sure anytaxi driver over the age of 20 would have a wife and at least a couple of kids! This is also true of most Mexican men who show an interest in you. They love the idea of dating a gringa, especially if she appears to have money socked away in her bank account!


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## travelingrae

circle110 said:


> I got 4 marriage proposals in my first week there -- all from 19-20 year old girls!! And I was 48 at the time!


Hate to be cynical, but like with the Mexican taxi drivers, they are most likely seeing a rich (by their standards) person who will be able to get them a visa to go live in the US or Canada.


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## circle110

UrbanMan said:


> If your saying that what some people call _hookups_ are not the thing, thats okay, as for reasons of health, that's not a good way of life. But - how old school is old school? If your telling me its the 1950s down there, I may have to completely change my plans. I'm not really believing this, though, as my web research indicates there are in fact local women who prefer foreign men, as we can be less slimy than mexican men (ie. such as cab drivers who proposition 1/2 their female passengers, possibly while having a wife and kids at home). Also, we tend to have a bit of money, which of course has mattered to women all over the planet for as long as there has been money ...


No, not 1950's. I guess I came of age in the early 70s and it was the era just after the "free love" 60s and that attitude was still prevalent. What are now called hookups didn't even require a name back then, it was just that common. Plus, I was a musician gigging in public and that put me into a certain cultural ambiance. That's my reference point so take that into consideration.

You are right about a certain preference for foreign men; that is in part because the foreign men don't tend to propose marriage after 10 minutes like the taxi drivers did to travelingrae! All my Mexican women friends tell me that they are tired and bored with the cliche machismo that so many Mexican men still display and foreigners are like a breath of fresh air, plus we have that cachet of being, well, foreign. Money comes into play I suppose but my circles of Mexican friends have always been made up of artists, college professors, doctors and other professionals, so they are doing reasonably well economically and the women in those groups aren't necessarily hunting a sugar daddy. 

On the other hand, see my previous post about my experience in Nicaragua...

Honestly, if you are a decent guy and can handle some Spanish and are able to make a little bit if interesting conversation, you will have a fine time in Mexico.


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## travelingrae

circle110 said:


> You are right about a certain preference for foreign men; that is in part because the foreign men don't tend to propose marriage after 10 minutes like the taxi drivers did to travelingrae!


All I could think in those moments is that they were looking at me as a meal ticket/way to move to Canada!

Because I don't meet US/Canadian standards of beauty, I'm used to being invisible around men. It has been a shock in Mexico, where beauty standards are obviously different (being rotund doesn't seem to be such a big deal), to have men hit on me, cat call, or otherwise notice me. I don't know whether to be flattered or horrified, to be honest.  I haven't had anyone say anything that was particularly sleazy or degrading, but I have to take the flattery with a grain of salt. Add in that I don't want children and I really doubt that I would ever date a Mexican man. I talked about this with a Mexican gal I met in England this winter and she validated my perceptions and concerns, saying that there could very well be a Mexican man out there for me, but it'll be like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack.


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## circle110

travelingrae said:


> Hate to be cynical, but like with the Mexican taxi drivers, they are most likely seeing a rich (by their standards) person who will be able to get them a visa to go live in the US or Canada.


Of course, that's exactly my point. They saw a sugar daddy.

Actually, in Nicaragua the norm is that the men stay down there and use their US dollars to give the women a life far beyond what they could have otherwise. It is common to see a North American guy of 70 with a wife/girlfriend of 25-30 walking down the street. Most are clearly arrangements between the two for each other's mutual benefit but I actually met some couples where they developed a real marriage, even though the relationship started out much more mercenary. 

Of course those young Nica girls were after my dollars, but me being a generally cool guy, musician and artist and speaking their language fluently plus looking 10-15 years younger than my actual chronological age (lucky genes) didn't hurt me either! 

Addendum: BTW, I stayed clear of the temptation.


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## Isla Verde

travelingrae said:


> Hate to be cynical, but like with the Mexican taxi drivers, they are most likely seeing a rich (by their standards) person who will be able to get them a visa to go live in the US or Canada.


You've hit the nail on the head!


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## circle110

travelingrae said:


> All I could think in those moments is that they were looking at me as a meal ticket/way to move to Canada!
> 
> Because I don't meet US/Canadian standards of beauty, I'm used to being invisible around men. It has been a shock in Mexico, where beauty standards are obviously different (being rotund doesn't seem to be such a big deal), to have men hit on me, cat call, or otherwise notice me. I don't know whether to be flattered or horrified, to be honest.  I haven't had anyone say anything that was particularly sleazy or degrading, but I have to take the flattery with a grain of salt. Add in that I don't want children and I really doubt that I would ever date a Mexican man. I talked about this with a Mexican gal I met in England this winter and she validated my perceptions and concerns, saying that there could very well be a Mexican man out there for me, but it'll be like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack.


All my Mexican friends agree with each other that a North American man with a Mexican woman is usually a good fit. A North American woman with a Mexican man, not so often. Although I do know several couples that have made it work well in the "wrong" way so there are no rules.

I wouldn't attribute all the attention to you being a visa ticket. You are the exotic foreigner and that adds to your allure. And, as you say, standards of beauty are different. Overall, I think you have a pretty good take on things.


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## Isla Verde

UrbanMan said:


> . . . my web research indicates there are in fact local women who prefer foreign men, as we can be less slimy than mexican men (ie. such as cab drivers who proposition 1/2 their female passengers, possibly while having a wife and kids at home). Also, we tend to have a bit of money, which of course has mattered to women all over the planet for as long as there has been money ...


Maybe I'm a bit odd, but how much money a man has in the bank has never been important to me when looking for a romantic partner. Though it would be nice if he could afford to take me out for coffee every now and then!


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## travelingrae

circle110 said:


> You are the exotic foreigner


Ooh, I like that better than being the "canadiense loca," as my beloved neighbours back in Mazatlán used to lovingly refer to me. :lol:


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## horseshoe846

Yesterday - on perhaps a half hour taxi ride in Mexico City - the driver and us were chatting up a storm. At one point he asked - 'can you give me a US dollar - just one' ? Well we don't carry US currency around in Mexico. My wife dug into the change in her wallet and found a US penny. She gave it to the driver and for the rest of the trip he caressed it like it was a gift from the gods.


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## travelingrae

Isla Verde said:


> Maybe I'm a bit odd, but how much money a man has in the bank has never been important to me when looking for a romantic partner.


Ditto. I turned down three opportunities to marry very wealthy men I just wasn't romantically interested in. But I do want a guy who is financially responsible and able to treat me to the odd beer or coffee.


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## ojosazules11

OK. I know no one is trying to paint ALL Mexican men as macho slimebags, but nevertheless I do feel the need to come to the défense of the many Mexican men who are nothing of the sort. I've been married for 18 years (together 24 years) to a wonderful man who happens to be Mexican. He is kind, loving, hard-working, romantic, musical, incredibly considerate, a better cook than me, does more of the housework than me (since I work longer hours), makes special teas and _atoles_ if any of us are sick, brings me coffee in bed, can fix cars, build houses, and play guitar. I know other Mexican men who also have many of these attributes, including one male friend in Tepoz who is currently the "stay at home" parent for their 2 young sons - because it made the most sense given their family's situation. His wife (also Mexican) did confide to me that it took some mental adjusting for him to be OK with this. He also has a business venture with his extended family, but it's not a Mon - Fri 9 to 5 type enterprise, which is why he became the "at home" parent during the week. 

Yes, I also know plenty of Mexican men who fit the more _macho_ stereotype, but there are also many who don't. Obviously the true _caballeros_ aren't hitting up women, foreign or otherwise, in taxis. And slimebags exist NOB as well.


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## horseshoe846

ojosazules11 said:


> OK. I know no one is trying to paint ALL Mexican men as macho slimebags, but nevertheless I do feel the need to come to the défense of the many Mexican men who are nothing of the sort. I've been married for 18 years (together 24 years) to a wonderful man who happens to be Mexican. He is kind, loving, hard-working, romantic, musical, incredibly considerate, a better cook than me, does more of the housework than me (since I work longer hours), makes special teas and _atoles_ if any of us are sick, brings me coffee in bed, can fix cars, build houses, and play guitar. I know other Mexican men who also have many of these attributes, including one friend in Tepoz who is currently the "stay at home" parent for their 2 young sons - because it made the most sense given their family's situation. His wife (also Mexican) did confide to me that it took some mental adjusting for him to be OK with this. He also has a business venture with his extended family, but it's not a Mon - Fri 9 to 5 type enterprise, which is why he became the "at home" parent during the week.
> 
> Yes, I also know plenty of Mexican men who fit the more _macho_ stereotype, but there are also many who don't. Obviously the true _caballeros_ aren't hitting up women, foreign or otherwise, in taxis. And slimebags exist NOB as well.


Ojos- I'm sure you are a 'catch'. But - the key point is that you have someone you are committed to and who is committed to you (for many years). That says a lot. Not everyone can say that...


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## Isla Verde

travelingrae said:


> Ditto. I turned down three opportunities to marry very wealthy men I just wasn't romantically interested in. But I do want a guy who is financially responsible and able to treat me to the odd beer or coffee.


And one who isn't "codo".


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## UrbanMan

travelingrae said:


> Because I don't meet US/Canadian standards of beauty, I'm used to being invisible around men.





travelingrae said:


> I turned down three opportunities to marry very wealthy men I just wasn't romantically interested in.


Non sequitor


.


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## travelingrae

UrbanMan said:


> Non sequitor


No, it's not. I just don't think the details are particularly on topic or that anyone would be interested.


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## horseshoe846

UrbanMan said:


> Non sequitor
> 
> 
> .


Thanks for that post - I've learned something new today - are you a lawyer ?


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## circle110

horseshoe846 said:


> Thanks for that post - I've learned something new today - are you a lawyer ?


I hope not, because he spelled non sequitur wrong.


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## TurtleToo

Isla Verde said:


> Wow, that has never happened to me. What am I doing wrong?


Isla Verde, I think the question is: "What am I doing right?" 

.


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## TurtleToo

ojosazules11 said:


> OK. . . I've been married for 18 years (together 24 years) to a wonderful man who happens to be Mexican. He is kind, loving, hard-working, romantic, musical, incredibly considerate, a better cook than me, does more of the housework than me (since I work longer hours), makes special teas and _atoles_ if any of us are sick, brings me coffee in bed, can fix cars, build houses, and play guitar. .


Well, darn! Finally, after all these years, I have the answer. Now I know what happened to the man I was looking for: Ojos married him! :lol:

.


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## mattoleriver

travelingrae said:


> My experience with romance in Mexico is taxi drivers being awed that a Canadian woman their age is travelling alone in their country and is single and proposing marriage after a 10-minute chat. I've had this happen four times in about 12 months spent in Mexico :lol:


Okay, I got here late. This was the very first post that I read.
Well, call me naive but I thought that travelingrae was the one making the proposals. You go girl!!!


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## travelingrae

mattoleriver said:


> Okay, I got here late. This was the very first post that I read.
> Well, call me naive but I thought that travelingrae was the one making the proposals. You go girl!!!


Wow, that was a badly worded sentence. I'm not that brazen! :lol:


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## ojosazules11

This is one of those threads that has gone hilariously off track from the original question of "what city in Mexico?" to "what man to marry - or not?" I know I'm currently a bit sleep deprived, which always makes me a bit giddy, but I do love the threads that make me laugh out loud.


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## Me Linda

I personally will never look at my taxi driver the same again.


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## ojosazules11

TurtleToo said:


> Well, darn! Finally, after all these years, I have the answer. Now I know what happened to the man I was looking for: Ojos married him! :lol:
> 
> .


Remember that Joni Mitchell song about paving paradise:
"Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone" :hippie:

Well, I do know how lucky my husband and I are to have what we have in our marriage, so we both make darned sure to appreciate it and take care of it. It was second time around for both of us, which can help with recognizing when you've found someone who is a great fit in terms of what is "essential", not getting too worked up about the non-essential irritants, and never taking what you have for granted.


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## UrbanMan

travelingrae said:


> Hate to be cynical, but like with the Mexican taxi drivers, they are most likely seeing a rich (by their standards) person who will be able to get them a visa to go live in the US or Canada.





travelingrae said:


> All I could think in those moments is that they were looking at me as a meal ticket/way to move to Canada!


I suspect you actually like everything about being cynical. In this case, you need to go further. Looking for 10 minutes of horizontal mumbo is what these "proposals" are actually about. And from what I've read, they do have some success.


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## travelingrae

UrbanMan said:


> I suspect you actually like everything about being cynical. In this case, you need to go further. Looking for 10 minutes of horizontal mumbo is what these "proposals" are actually about. And from what I've read, they do have some success.


Well of course there's that too.


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## citlali

Jesus I have been missing so much! I take cabs all the time in San Cristobal and never had any proposals, not even close..!! I have been missing all the fun!


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## Isla Verde

Me Linda said:


> I personally will never look at my taxi driver the same again.


What if he's really cute and is playing jazz on his radio?


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## Isla Verde

UrbanMan said:


> I suspect you actually like everything about being cynical. In this case, you need to go further. Looking for 10 minutes of horizontal mumbo is what these "proposals" are actually about. And from what I've read, they do have some success.


I'm sure you're right about the taxistas looking for some horizontal activity, UrbanMan. After all, it is well known in Mexico that most foreign women will jump into bed with any available Mexican macho at the drop of a hat. But what exactly is "mumbo"?


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## Me Linda

Then I would be positive he had a wife and six kids at home. And at my age that he was after something lol.


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## travelingrae

citlali said:


> Jesus I have been missing so much! I take cabs all the time in San Cristobal and never had any proposals, not even close..!! I have been missing all the fun!


To bring this thread slightly back on topic, for all you gals looking for action with taxi drivers, Mazatlán is apparently the place to go. The pulmonía drivers are hungry because it wasn't just me they were proposing to! :lol:


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## Haskins

Driving in Mexico is indeed easy. Just go with the flow, don't slow down, and for the love of God don't hit anyone! lol ound:


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## RVGRINGO

And......avoid using your signal lights, or paying attention to those of others, until you know the unique rules for signaling on the highway vs. signaling in town. It can get you killed.....quickly !


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## citlali

Actually one of the rule is "do not rear end" anyone" as you will be found guilty period..


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## travelingrae

RVGRINGO said:


> And......avoid using your signal lights, or paying attention to those of others, until you know the unique rules for signaling on the highway vs. signaling in town. It can get you killed.....quickly !


Having been initiated to Mexico in Sonora and Sinaloa, I was shocked to discover that people in the area of Mérida use turn signals the way we do NOB and that people will honk at me if I don't use mine to indicate a lane change, whether in the city or on the highway. I find folks in this part of Mexico drive much more like what I'm used to in NOB, just more Montreal than small town America, though.


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## CasaColibri

Better late than never! My vote is for Guanajuato. I have lived and worked here 20 years and still love it! Definitely worth a look. Have several friends with children. Although I don't personally know much about the schools, they've managed to find what they've needed. One of the things I like about Guanajuato is its proximity to the BJX international airport - 40 minutes away, and the big city of Leon -50 minutes - where you can shop at all the big box stores like Costco, Sam's, Home Depot, etc. I usually make a monthly shopping run there. But you don't have to live in that sprawl. Another positive for Guanajuato is that it's home to a major university. That gives the town vitality and constant cultural offerings. Happy to answer any questions you may have!


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