# Seguro Social vs. Private medicine ?



## Merida Yucatan

Sorry, if this has already been covered in another thread. 

I would be most grateful for feedback re what using Seguro Social medical 
care is like, as compared to private care. I have a health condition, so 
having to travel far and make extra trips or wait a long time or stand 
up while waiting for appointments is hard on me. Also my Spanish 
tends to be adequate for people who're making money from me, but 
sometimes bureaucrats speak too quickly for me to understand. 

For those of you using Seguro Social - do you usually have to 
make an appointment in advance ? If so, can the appointment usually 
be made over the phone ? How far in advance generally do you 
need to book ? Do doctors tend to be more or less on time ?

Is it hard to find a doctor to accept new patients ? I live in a major city. It 
is likely I could find a Seguro Social doctor close to me ? 

Are Seguro Social doctors co-operative at prescribing something such 
as sleeping pills ? I need them due to my medical condition but most 
doctors in Mexico are not educated about my condition. Just the same, 
private doctors prescribe chemical sleeping pills (except for Farmacia 
Similares doctors who only prescribe natural pills which don't help me.)

Have you found the medical people co-operative if your Spanish is 
limited ? 

Sorry for so many questions ! Thanks in advance !


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## AlanMexicali

*Seguro Social*



Merida Yucatan said:


> Sorry, if this has already been covered in another thread.
> 
> I would be most grateful for feedback re what using Seguro Social medical
> care is like, as compared to private care. I have a health condition, so
> having to travel far and make extra trips or wait a long time or stand
> up while waiting for appointments is hard on me. Also my Spanish
> tends to be adequate for people who're making money from me, but
> sometimes bureaucrats speak too quickly for me to understand.
> 
> For those of you using Seguro Social - do you usually have to
> make an appointment in advance ? If so, can the appointment usually
> be made over the phone ? How far in advance generally do you
> need to book ? Do doctors tend to be more or less on time ?
> 
> Is it hard to find a doctor to accept new patients ? I live in a major city. It
> is likely I could find a Seguro Social doctor close to me ?
> 
> Are Seguro Social doctors co-operative at prescribing something such
> as sleeping pills ? I need them due to my medical condition but most
> doctors in Mexico are not educated about my condition. Just the same,
> private doctors prescribe chemical sleeping pills (except for Farmacia
> Similares doctors who only prescribe natural pills which don't help me.)
> 
> Have you found the medical people co-operative if your Spanish is
> limited ?
> 
> Sorry for so many questions ! Thanks in advance !


I have been to a Hospital General which is a Seguro Social hospital a couple of years ago for a sinus operation and went through all the procedures leading up to my admission. First thing is to go to the hospital to the Trabajo Social office to be registered. They ask for your FMM card, FM2 or FM3 and about your financial situation. It helps to have a CURP, but not mandatory, I think. Then you get an appointment to see a general physician and they take your medical record and check your general health and hand you the folder, always bring your folder with you until they tell you to go to the records dept. when your folder is filed. Any appointment you have then your first step will be to go get your file. At the clinics someone goes and gets your folder and gives it to the DR. Then you get another appointment to see a specialists which might take some time. If you make the appointment early in the day or early in the afternoon, depending on when the specialist works at the Seguro Popular in his consultorio, they work 1/2 days usually, you will have less of a wait, in my experience. You have to get appointments from your local clinic after that by popping in and waiting a long time to see a general practice DR. unless it is a specialist which an appointment will be given to you. My intermediate plus Spanish was never a problem, yet.

The overall experience took one full day and another 1/2 day before the date was set for me to check in and was a pleasant one. My wife is a bureaucrat for the Federal Govt.'s Secretaria de Salud which helped as they run the Seguro Social hospitals and clinics nationwide.

Last July they announced no one will have to pay for Seguro Popular services and when I was at the Hospital General recently they now have a sign which states" All services here are free, if anyone solicits a payment, report them".


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## AlanMexicali

*Private medicine*



Merida Yucatan said:


> Sorry, if this has already been covered in another thread.
> 
> I would be most grateful for feedback re what using Seguro Social medical
> care is like, as compared to private care. I have a health condition, so
> having to travel far and make extra trips or wait a long time or stand
> up while waiting for appointments is hard on me. Also my Spanish
> tends to be adequate for people who're making money from me, but
> sometimes bureaucrats speak too quickly for me to understand.
> 
> For those of you using Seguro Social - do you usually have to
> make an appointment in advance ? If so, can the appointment usually
> be made over the phone ? How far in advance generally do you
> need to book ? Do doctors tend to be more or less on time ?
> 
> Is it hard to find a doctor to accept new patients ? I live in a major city. It
> is likely I could find a Seguro Social doctor close to me ?
> 
> Are Seguro Social doctors co-operative at prescribing something such
> as sleeping pills ? I need them due to my medical condition but most
> doctors in Mexico are not educated about my condition. Just the same,
> private doctors prescribe chemical sleeping pills (except for Farmacia
> Similares doctors who only prescribe natural pills which don't help me.)
> 
> Have you found the medical people co-operative if your Spanish is
> limited ?
> 
> Sorry for so many questions ! Thanks in advance !


I have had quite a bit of experience with private Drs and hospitals in Mexico. In Jan. this year I had a operation to remove my long time friends, 3 hemorrhoids. My wife's mother in Feb. had her cardioid artery which was 90% clogged cleared and was in a private hospital for a week and 2 surgeons took care of it plus an intern. Cost almost $15,000 US not including the 3 nurses taking care of her at her home for a week. The Seguro Popular would not operate on her because of her age and it is a dangerous procedure.

My operation was cheap compared to what I would have to pay in San Diego. $600 US but we got about a 50% discount from the first quoted price. The day I was going to the Hospital my wife sprained her ankle very badly and went to the Hospital General and had a cast put on in less than 2 hours. She was told to come back in 10 days to have it removed. She had an X-ray that day also. Then she went to a private specialists and he said the cast should have remained on for about another 7 to 10 days.


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## sparks

Just don't depend on Seguro Popular or Centro de Salud having any of the free medicine. I just drove someone yesterday to the next largest town because there was no medicine here. We didn't find it in either. They had to visit a real pharmacy and pay


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## AlanMexicali

*Medicine*



sparks said:


> Just don't depend on Seguro Popular or Centro de Salud having any of the free medicine. I just drove someone yesterday to the next largest town because there was no medicine here. We didn't find it in either. They had to visit a real pharmacy and pay


Yes they all , Seguro Popular and ISSSTE, seem to run out of their weekly supplies of popular medicines sometimes. The thing we do is ask which day the weekly supply arrives and show up early to have the prescription filled. Some medicines they do not have at all. I take Spiriva and have to go in every 60 days for a new prescription and make an appointment with my general physician first as they only give a 2 month supply out at a time.


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## Isla Verde

AlanMexicali said:


> My intermediate plus Spanish was never a problem, yet.


What would you say to someone like Merida Yucatan whose Spanish is, in his own words, "limited"? Would you recommend that he use Seguro Popular?


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## DNP

Isla Verde said:


> What would you say to someone like Merida Yucatan whose Spanish is, in his own words, "limited"? Would you recommend that he use Seguro Popular?


I would say to anyone who can afford private care, to go that route. Finding good private care is usually pretty easy, and I as far as i know, Merida has very good private care--probably, like anywhere else, in some fields more than others.

That said, Social Security can be good too. I'm not familiar with the Social Security in Merida, but services and supplies do vary a lot from place to place.

If it were me, depending on my condition, I would at least start with Social Security and go from there. Experience counts, one's own and others'.

WashDC/SMA


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## sparks

Everyone here uses Centro de Salud for scorpion stings and sometimes jellyfish stings. Heat exhaustion and Dengue symptoms. Beyond that the poor wait in line and everyone else goes to or gets referred to a doctor


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## AlanMexicali

*Seguro Social*



Isla Verde said:


> What would you say to someone like Merida Yucatan whose Spanish is, in his own words, "limited"? Would you recommend that he use Seguro Popular?



I would think they should bring someone with them that speaks both English and Spanish so they can communicate well enough to get registered and looked at.


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## FHBOY

AlanMexicali said:


> I have been to a Hospital General which is a Seguro Social hospital a couple of years ago... All services here are free, if anyone solicits a payment, report them".


What is a CURP?


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## FHBOY

AlanMexicali said:


> I have been to a Hospital General which is a Seguro Social hospital a couple of years ago for a sinus operation and went through all the procedures leading up to my admission. ...My intermediate plus Spanish was never a problem, yet.
> .


This sounds like most HMOs and PPOs NOB. I must first see my general doc, who will then give me a referral to a specialist, who will then make an appointment for some time in the future, do get a date for a procedure. And all of that costs $$$ - a co-pay for the generalist, a co-pay for the specialist, etc etc, not counting the exorbitant cost for my health care/month (upwards of $600USD).

I know that some are used to the one stop shop, find a specialist, make and appointment and go, but in US managed care, these days, those situations are few and far between. So I find your experience nothing out of the ordinary.

Look, I'm going to be a retiree in Mexico, so what if it takes, for non-emergencies, a few days or weeks to get to be cured/treated, where am I running to, what appointments do I have to keep, where are my commitments other than to myself and my spouse?

There was a feature on NPR radio yesterday here in the States...and man has written a book on patience...yes patience...and I found what he said most enlightening and something I am looking forward to, just having the time to be patient. It seems from your story that is one of the things to learn in Mexico...darn that sounds good!


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## AlanMexicali

*Thanks*



FHBOY said:


> This sounds like most HMOs and PPOs NOB. I must first see my general doc, who will then give me a referral to a specialist, who will then make an appointment for some time in the future, do get a date for a procedure. And all of that costs $$$ - a co-pay for the generalist, a co-pay for the specialist, etc etc, not counting the exorbitant cost for my health care/month (upwards of $600USD).
> 
> I know that some are used to the one stop shop, find a specialist, make and appointment and go, but in US managed care, these days, those situations are few and far between. So I find your experience nothing out of the ordinary.
> 
> Look, I'm going to be a retiree in Mexico, so what if it takes, for non-emergencies, a few days or weeks to get to be cured/treated, where am I running to, what appointments do I have to keep, where are my commitments other than to myself and my spouse?
> 
> There was a feature on NPR radio yesterday here in the States...and man has written a book on patience...yes patience...and I found what he said most enlightening and something I am looking forward to, just having the time to be patient. It seems from your story that is one of the things to learn in Mexico...darn that sounds good!



These few events I described are part of the many more I have had done to me or my wife's family and her friends in Mexico. I have had 2 incidences of respiratory infections that one was a touch of pneumonia last March were I went to the ISSSTE clinic and was injected with a strong antibiotic, chest X-Rays taken and needed injections the following 2 evenings were the ISSSTE Dra. came to her consultorio on a Sat. night to meet us and on Sun. night we went to her house to get it done. That is why I go to her every 60 days for check ups and get a prescription for Spirvia that when we went to an ISSSTE pulmonary specialists a few days later he prescribed for me [expensive in the US] and he ordered a lung capacity exam which would be after my departure to San Diego. All this was free, plus the prescriptions for more antibiotics, inhalers, mucus loosening syrup and prescription anti histamines etc. and another checkup. We got a private respiratory tech. to come to our house and give it to me for $400.00 pesos and took the results to the specialist. I have no problems with all of this so far. 

My HMO in San Diego did not address the very many sinus infections I have had over about 20 years and prescribed lab tests and antibiotics. When I went to a private specialist in Mexico with a bad sinus infection and told him my history he diagnosed me with chronic sinusitis and ordered a CAT scan and discovered 5 polyps and partially clogged sinus cavities and partially clogged tubes from old infections. I then went to the Serguo Popular to have it taken care of and it took awhile before the infection cleared up before they admitted me for 3 days to do it. The private diagnosis cost $500.00 pesos and the CAT scan cost $667.00 pesos. The best money I ever spend.


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## AlanMexicali

*Curp*



FHBOY said:


> What is a CURP?


Your Mexican ID number.

Unique Population Registry Code - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## FHBOY

AlanMexicali said:


> These few events...The best money I ever spend.


[If these questions are answered elsewhere, please excuse me and point me there]

What does one need to do to obtain a CURP?

Is ISSTE care available to non-imigrado (FM2-3) people? How does it differ from IMSS?


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## AlanMexicali

*Issste*



FHBOY said:


> [If these questions are answered elsewhere, please excuse me and point me there]
> 
> What does one need to do to obtain a CURP?
> 
> Is ISSTE care available to non-imigrado (FM2-3) people? How does it differ from IMSS?



No. ISSSTE is the Socialized Heath care system for federal employees and their spouses and dependent children only. 

I got my CURP at the civil registrars office and needed my birth certificate, Mexican marriage license, and FMM card and I think $26.00 pesos. There were long lines at other windows there but the one for getting a CURP had only 2 people and took less than 1 hour. You give the information to the clerk. He or she enters it into the computer system and takes copies of your documents. Then you go to a computer there and enter the number they give you and up pops your form and it prints out. Then you go back and give it to the clerk. He cuts out your CURP card and a small sheet with other stuff on it and keeps the rest and then you go have it lamented there for $15.00 pesos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Social_Security_and_Services_for_State_Workers

...


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## makaloco

FHBOY said:


> What does one need to do to obtain a CURP?


It may vary by location, but I just took my FM2 to a Registro Civil in my town and asked for a CURP. It took about 5-10 minutes and was free. I think FM3/No Inmigrantes can get it, too.


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## AlanMexicali

makaloco said:


> It may vary by location, but I just took my FM2 to a Registro Civil in my town and asked for a CURP. It took about 5-10 minutes and was free. I think FM3/No Inmigrantes can get it, too.


I think it might have been free also, I can't remember. Anyone with an FM2 or FM3 usually will need one sooner or later.


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## FHBOY

AlanMexicali said:


> No. ISSSTE is the Socialized Heath care system for federal employees and their spouses and dependent children only.
> 
> I got my CURP at the civil registrars office and needed my birth certificate, Mexican marriage license, and FMM card and I think $26.00 pesos. There were long lines at other windows there but the one for getting a CURP had only 2 people and took less than 1 hour. You give the information to the clerk. He or she enters it into the computer system and takes copies of your documents. Then you go to a computer there and enter the number they give you and up pops your form and it prints out. Then you go back and give it to the clerk. He cuts out your CURP card and a small sheet with other stuff on it and keeps the rest and then you go have it lamented there for $15.00 pesos.
> 
> Institute for Social Security and Services for State Workers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> ...


One needs a Mexican marriage license to obtain a CURP? Foreign marriages are not recognized for this purpose?

So I assume either you, your spouse or both of you are Federal employees, correct?


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## AlanMexicali

*Curp*



FHBOY said:


> One needs a Mexican marriage license to obtain a CURP? Foreign marriages are not recognized for this purpose?
> 
> So I assume either you, your spouse or both of you are Federal employees, correct?


My wife works for the Mexican Federal Gov't.

For a CURP you have to be a resident of Mexico with an INM card of some type or a citizen or married to a Mexican National. I don't think you can get one with just an FMM card, even though that is what I had.


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## FHBOY

AlanMexicali said:


> My wife works for the Mexican Federal Gov't.
> 
> For a CURP you have to be a resident of Mexico with an INM card of some type or a citizen or married to a Mexican National. I don't think you can get one with just an FMM card, even though that is what I had.


OK - so after I get my FM2 or 3, or whatever they will call it, then I apply for a CURP. Filing all this info away, thanks.


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## RVGRINGO

When you get your INM credential, ask that they include your CURP. They can create it and print it in the appropriate space on your visa.
We got ours six or eight years ago, but my wife's was confusing and INM created a new one for her with her married name, instead of her maiden name in Mexican fashion. The new one is now on her visa and can be printed online & laminated anywhere.


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## Merida Yucatan

*Curp*

CURP is an 18 character ID number. 

Thanks everyone for your thoughts on SS vs. private health care !


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## floridagal

In Chapala, we went through the courthouse to the offices out back, asked for a CURP and handed them my US driver's license as identification. Within 15 minutes, I had my CURP number, no need for birth certificate or any other papers to obtain one. HTH.


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## conklinwh

Actually, I never went separately to get a CURP. When we did no immigrant/FM3, it showed up on the card so at least in San Miguel it must somehow be a by-product of the visa process.


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## TundraGreen

conklinwh said:


> Actually, I never went separately to get a CURP. When we did no immigrant/FM3, it showed up on the card so at least in San Miguel it must somehow be a by-product of the visa process.


Several agencies must be able to do them. I got mine originally at INEGI. Then when I was at SAT getting an RFC, I noticed that my name was misspelled. So SAT got me a new CURP.

My apologies for the alphabet soup.

CURP - Clave Única de Registro de Población
INEGI - Instituto Nacional de Estadística y Geografía
RFC - Registro Federal de Contribuyentes
SAT - Servicio de Administración Tributaria


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## Dmexx

*Curp*



FHBOY said:


> What is a CURP?


Curp stands for "clave unica de registro de poblacion." It is a alpha numeric code that identifies you as a resident in the country. You can obtain this number and card when you apply for your visa. 

When asked for identification, the visa is genrally preferred, as it has a foto. For some things, such as paying property taxes, however, you may be asked to present your CRUP. I rarely use mine.

Saludos,

Dmexx


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## El Toro Furioso

A note of caution to the initial poster. If you have a pre-existing condition, it is highly unlikely that IMSS will cover it. In fact, it is unlikely that they will allow you any coverage at all, depending on how serious the condition might be. So, after all of the above procedural advice, maybe you should find out if you can even get IMSS coverage first.


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## gudgrief

*Seguro Popular*



AlanMexicali said:


> Last July they announced no one will have to pay for Seguro Popular services and when I was at the Hospital General recently they now have a sign which states" All services here are free, if anyone solicits a payment, report them".


That's a real revelation. No premiums anymore? Or is it that some used to try to extort payment?

I have serious pre-existing conditions and thought I was not eligible for Seguro Social. Is that still true?

Thanks


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## Isla Verde

gudgrief said:


> That's a real revelation. No premiums anymore? Or is it that some used to try to extort payment?
> 
> I have serious pre-existing conditions and thought I was not eligible for Seguro Social. Is that still true?
> 
> Thanks


Seguro Popular and IMSS (Instituto Mexicano del Seguro Social) are too different programs.


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## gudgrief

*Private Care*

Private care is no guarantee you'll get better care.

I made an appointment with an internist/cardiologist who was on the faculty of the Zacatecas University (UAZ) medical school. Based on the results of the initial exam, he sent me for a cardiology work up. The recommendation was to get an angiogram and possible angioplasty right away. The rough cost would be up to $5,000 with only $500 to $1000 being payable by credit card. The total cost up to that point was around $700 cash. A couple of days later, I decided to get a second opinion from a cardiologist recommended by a neighbor who had good contacts in the city. After another round of similar test, his recommendation was to treat with meds and diet for 6 months. Just from comparing the styles of the two doctors and the fact that he had been recommended by a neighbor I trusted, we decided to follow the 2nd Dr.'s plan.

At that point, I signed up for Medicare because I have a place in TX and we're not too far from the US border. It took 3 months to be able to make an appointment with a cardiologist for an angiogram because of Medicare rules. The result of the angiogram was a recommendation for immediate bypass surgery. I don't know if the outcome would have been different if I had acted earlier. I do know I could not have come up with the cash for bypass surgery in Mexico.

All the middle class Mexicans I know either pay cash even if they have to borrow, buy private insurance or have insurance through work, non use Social Security. Private insurance for 65 and over is much lower than it would be in the US but still out of sight for someone on Social Security plus modest pension.


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## gudgrief

Isla Verde said:


> Seguro Popular and IMSS (Instituto Mexicano del Seguro Social) are too different programs.


Sorry, the question applies to Seguro Popular.


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## AlanMexicali

*Seguro Social/Seguro Popular*



gudgrief said:


> That's a real revelation. No premiums anymore? Or is it that some used to try to extort payment?
> 
> I have serious pre-existing conditions and thought I was not eligible for Seguro Social. Is that still true?
> 
> Thanks


Seguro Popular = Secretaria de Salud.

Here is what they cover: 

http://www.seguro-popular.salud.gob.mx/images/contenidos/Normateca/Spss/causes_2009.pdf

This PDF is on their website on this page:

Intervenciones médicas Catálogo Universal de Servicios de Salud


Website: Comisión Nacional de Protección Social en Salud - Seguro Popular

If you can translate into Spanish your condition and have the time to scroll down the list on the PDF above you might find your answer.

If you are referring to the IMSS then they have premiums and do not cover all preexisting conditions and you might not be accepted then. If you do not have much money you could registrar at the Seguro Popular where it covers many more aliments, over 1400, and preexisting conditions and there is no charge or yearly premiums.


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## AlanMexicali

*Hospital General*



gudgrief said:


> Sorry, the question applies to Seguro Popular.


I might have been confusing: Hospital General = Seguro Popular = Secretaria de Salud = Centro de Salud clinics = free to all if you pass the criteria when registering [no extra money] or are presently covered by other federal Gov't 's or another state's medical insurance.


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## TundraGreen

AlanMexicali said:


> I might have been confusing: Hospital General = Seguro Popular = Secretaria de Salud = Centro de Salud clinics = free to all if you pass the criteria when registering [no extra money] or are presently covered by other federal Gov't 's or another state's medical insurance.


Until just now, I thought there were income limits for Seguro Popular. That is what my housekeeper told me. However, the web site says that the only requirements are: 1) Reside in Mexico, 2) Not have any other coverage (i.e. no coverage by IMSS). I do not know whether visa holders would be accepted. Presumably, visitors here with just an FMM would not be considered residing in the country.


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## AlanMexicali

*Seguro Popular*



TundraGreen said:


> Until just now, I thought there were income limits for Seguro Popular. That is what my housekeeper told me. However, the web site says that the only requirements are: 1) Reside in Mexico, 2) Not have any other coverage (i.e. no coverage by IMSS). I do not know whether visa holders would be accepted. Presumably, visitors here with just an FMM would not be considered residing in the country.


In the beginning of 2010 when I registered at the Seguro Popular there was a interview with the Trabajo Social, to see if I could registrar or not, not to confuse this title with Social Worker in the US or Canada, it is similar but different enough in Mexico, and besides asking for my FMM and proof of residence [living] in Mexico they also asked about my finances. They did not ask about preexisting medical conditions. If I had extra money to pay at that time at least I would be charged on a sliding scale for any services depending on my ability to pay [still not a lot of money considering, I was told]. When Calderon went on TV about 18 months ago and announced now the Seguro Popular is free to all who qualify I do not know if the financial questions will be asked, but the sliding scale and the ability to pay for services was eliminated. An example before the free for all policy was anyone, no matter if you belonged to ISSSTE or the IMSS because sometimes they are far away, or a tourist, could go into a Centro de Salud and not be registered or asked any questions cost $65.00 pesos to get diagnosed and treated and the medicine was free if they had it, which included getting stitches or a cast put on etc. Centro de Saluds are in every town and village, more or less. I saw one in a converted house that was very small etc. in a tiny village.


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## PieGrande

My best friend in Mexico is a doctor. I don't need much in the way of health care over the years.


His wife told me there was nothing I could survive that would cost more than $5000 USD, and they would send us to good hospitals where they know the doctors. Also, they will take Visa, so we have gone without insurance and I have encountered other expats who made the same decision.

It would be scary not to have friends who can advise you in case of emergency.


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## AlanMexicali

*Doctors*



PieGrande said:


> My best friend in Mexico is a doctor. I don't need much in the way of health care over the years.
> 
> 
> His wife told me there was nothing I could survive that would cost more than $5000 USD, and they would send us to good hospitals where they know the doctors. Also, they will take Visa, so we have gone without insurance and I have encountered other expats who made the same decision.
> 
> It would be scary not to have friends who can advise you in case of emergency.


The next question would be does your friend say anything about the Seguro Popular or IMSS that would discourage you from joining for another option? Is he a 1/2 day DR at a consultorio at either place as many DR.s are in Mexico? Is he a specialist and in private hospitals only? There are many different situations, as for example a car accident, where the Seguro Popular or the IMSS could fix you up and private emergency care might be very expensive ... or cancer treatment or bypass surgery or a hip replacement etc.


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## PieGrande

*Doctor*

He is in private practice, has been here around 35 years, and is probably the best known person in the village of around 12,000 people. The younger doctors at times consult with him on hard cases.

He is an ultrasound specialist in addition to internal medicine. He charges 300 pesos for an ultrasound. Here in Mexico they do a lot of things with ultrasound they normally charge thousands of dollars for MRI in the US. Things like prostate cancer. He averages around 5 a day, which is pretty good money in non-American colony Mexico. That is in addition to his general practice.

He has delivered thousands of babies over the years.

He knows the best doctors and hospitals even in Puebla itself for all needs.

Let me repeat what I said, since I thought I anticipated all your questions.

His wife said if *I need medical care, they will find the correct doctor/hospital for my needs, and anything that cannot be covered by $5000 USD means I am going to die.
*

I assure you she has heard of car wrecks and cancer and heart problems. She is a doctor's wife.

I suspect you can pay a lot more for medical services on your own than I would have to pay with them as advisors. Medical care is not that expensive in Mexico for ordinary folks.

An example is that surgery they do for athletes with damaged knees. Here the MRI will run around $300, and the surgery, with one of the specialists who would operate on million dollar soccer stars, would run around $2000 or so. I am told the MRI in the US would be much more than the surgery here.

If you live in an American Colony, and go to doctors who practice for Americans, and set their prices based on your ability to pay, you will be paying much, much more, right?

Last January, my wife and I had bone density x-rays done in Tecamachalco. It cost us $33 each, and was done on a calibrated x-ray machine from the US, just a bit older. My wife has progressed from osteoporosis to osteopenia. I want her to have it done again and see if the calcium supplements, 1800 mg a day, will completely eliminate the problem as it has for other women I know.
.


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## AlanMexicali

*Medical costs*



PieGrande said:


> His wife said if *I need medical care, they will find the correct doctor/hospital for my needs, and anything that cannot be covered by $5000 USD means I am going to die.
> *
> 
> I assure you she has heard of car wrecks and cancer and heart problems. She is a doctor's wife.
> 
> I suspect you can pay a lot more for medical services on your own than I would have to pay with them as advisors. Medical care is not that expensive in Mexico for ordinary folks.
> 
> An example is that surgery they do for athletes with damaged knees. Here the MRI will run around $300, and the surgery, with one of the specialists who would operate on million dollar soccer stars, would run around $2000 or so. I am told the MRI in the US would be much more than the surgery here.
> 
> If you live in an American Colony, and go to doctors who practice for Americans, and set their prices based on your ability to pay, you will be paying much, much more, right?.



This is a complicated subject to say the least: "Private Dr.s and private hospitals vs. Mexican socialized health care costs and quality of service". You seem to be in a fairly different situation than other Expats. Is the $300.00 in US dlrs. or pesos? I got a CAT scan 2 years ago at the private Cenro de Laboratorios for $667.00 pesos of my skull. I have found the costs for some medical tests here in San Luis Potosi from soup to nuts as far as costs are concerned, from what I have been told, but obviously much less than in the US. The laboratories seem to charge the going rate most places for routine testing as here it is very competitive and word of mouth is always important. That being the case what would an Expat who has not much experience in medical costs or quality of service or has many friends with much experience have to do? Ask an uniformed neighbor and get the wrong answer? Generally middle class people in Mexico "might" use and know about private Dr.s and private hospitals in the area, but not guaranteed. 

That is why these discussions are of great interest to many contemplating a route to follow. It is hard to find middle class Mexicans as friends as they seem to be engaged in the good life and live in areas where houses tend to be larger and more expensive. If you work and meet many people or married into middle class Mexico things might be different or live where many Expats live that are friendly to other Expats. This forum is a resource for both views and experience.

As previously stated by many the Mexican socialized medicine available to Expats varies from location to location and clinic to clinic depending on many factors and one's experience there seldom reflects another's experience in general. Obviously the bigger cities and middle class parts of town or downtown clinics might do a better job, but not necessarily. Because of the unions in these Gov't. organizations it is hard and expensive to fire incompetent employees and many are forced to relocate to clinics and hospitals in areas where services are possibly not a vital concern and they could end up full of substandard service providers for many reasons. This being one plus limited financing to some of theses clinics and hospitals might also cause poorer services, etc. It might be seen that the better keep getting the best and the worst keep getting the worst of everything including financing. Mexico seems to have a perplexity in Gov't. agencies and policies and these sort of things happened frequently in the past and it still somewhat carries on today. Look at the INM for example.

I would venture to guess private Dr.s and private hospitals are concerned with making money and not getting a bad reputation.


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## FHBOY

It appears from this discussion and the one on the current thread about health care there is one answer to one question:

As in anything, it is who you know who knows something and that the best information is a conglomeration of networking advice. 

So I suspect that when you make your move, the faster you can network into the community, Mexican, Expat, whatever, the more information you can receive, process and then draw conclusions from a majority opinion.

As with anything, communication leads to information so network and communicate to find the answers.

I mean one of our concerns will be a veterinarian and we may find our answers in a cafe on the plaza, or in a restaurant...

God gave you two ears, two eyes and only one mouth so that you can hear and see more than you say, listen and observe more than you speak. (let's not get into the God discussion - use Mother Nature or The Force - if you must )


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## RVGRINGO

Good veterinarians are easier to find & the dogs never complain. In fact, our three just go their rabies shots today. We were returning from breakfast with friends, when two Centro de Salud guys started to ring our bell. They had the cooler, so I suspected their mission and their ID tags confirmed that they were the roving rabies crew. So, we brought our dogs to the door, one by one, and got their shots, tags and documents. Quick, easy and free.
Not long ago, we got our own flu shots in much the same way; at the local supermarket. It was also a service of Centro de Salud and was without cost. 
Expats who don't read Spanish won't generally know of these services and will pay for them at private clinics or veterinarians.


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## gudgrief

*Referrals of any kind*

What I've tried to do is get known by established locals.
I'm in the local Vips often enough that the managers know me by sight if not by name. I'm into another mas o menos upscale restaurant frequently and the owner knows me. Then there's my landlady who owns a small hotel. The combination of the three of them, especially when they all agree, has proven very reliable.

As someone else mentioned, especially living in areas without a large expat community, if you don't speak Spanish or don't watch/read the news on a daily basis, it's will be difficult to find out what kind of service is available.


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## PieGrande

Last few posters nailed it. In Mexico, who you know is probably the most important thing to having a good life.

The MRI was three hundred dollars. Three hundred pesos will get you an ultrasound in my village. I am told the MRI for knee surgery usually runs several thousand dollars in the US, more than the knee surgery in Mexico, if you know someone who can point you at the good doctors. And, it is my guess that having a friend of the doctor who will provide the service also gets you an honest price. "Take care of my friend, please."

Making friends with The Doctor was probably the second best thing that happened to me in Mexico. Number one is living by my wife's family, and being able to be accepted as a member of the family.

When I came here, one of my nieces (actually second cousin as we measure things in the US) worked for him, and told him her uncle was here, and spoke English. He told her to ask me to come in, and when I did, he started talking English, which shocked his employees, because no one knew he spoke English.

Later, I made friends with his wife, actually I think of her more as a sister than a friend.

In both cases, they are excellent intellectuals, in a village sans intellectuals. And, there are few they can discuss what I call intellectual things. The women who would be her friends, want to talk about cooking and babies, not politics and science and philosophy. The men who would be friends with him want to get drunk. He has never drunk when I am visiting him. And, since he went back to get his speciality, I forget what it's called here in Mexico which includes ultrasound and x-rays, he has not been drunk once. He went to Puebla every weekend for 3 or 4 years, the only doctor allowed to do that to get a speciality.

He had me teach him how to access the medical papers, such as Johns Hopkins; Mayo, etc. Also, a couple friends.

When he was building his new clinic, he ran into a cash crunch, and I loaned him several thousand dollars. Anyway, we are dear, dear friends now, and I would really hate to live here without the couple nearby.

So, he would be on the phone right away if I needed some serious medical condition.

One of the most interesting things was his reaction around 5 years ago, when I started Atkins and started shedding fat. He really screamed insisting it could not work. I insisted and he dug out his old textbooks to show me. But, when he finished reading them, he said not a word. Eating fat with low carbs cannot make you fat, that is now how food is processed. It is carbs which clog the veins and arteries and cause diabetes.

He over the years began to accept as he saw my health get better and better, that there was something to the diet, but he didn't want to try it.

In November, he finally admitted he was scared, and he should have been. When he told me his symptoms, I told him, "You are going to die if you don't change your diet now."

He looked sick, because as an experienced doctor he well know he could have a fatal heart attack any minute. And, he also knew there was little that M.D.'s can do for those conditions, especially when there is no heart emergency room within two hours.

He then asked me to show my diet. I showed it to his wife, and she then started the whole family on the diet described in the new book, THE NEW ATKINS FOR THE NEW YOU, a revised diet with minimum of 4 vegetables a day.

He is down 15 pounds, and the danger is much reduced. The problem was, like most doctors, he simply believed the official rulings they are taught, about low fat, high carb. Now he knows better. the whole family is much healthier.

So, yes, they will go to great lengths to help me out if I need it. Sorry, about the long posting, but it is a long story.


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## AlanMexicali

*The Good Life*



PieGrande said:


> Last few posters nailed it. In Mexico, who you know is probably the most important thing to having a good life.


I just arrived in Mexicali from a week in San Diego. When I crossed over the border into El Centro Mexicali I stopped to walk around before going for breakfast. A calm came over me that seemed to to present. I felt a slowed down relaxing effect that the scene was reflecting as I walked around. The people were not rushing and the noise of loudspeakers on the sidewalks with music and promos sounded good to me. The people from the tiendas with there wares crowding the sidewalks and the clerks out on the sidewalk was colorful, especially on the street were many flower shops are. The street with many dulcerias was crowded with families and people getting supplies. The produce wholesale area close by was very busy with trucks being loaded and unloaded, all visible outside or under shaded metal roofs. 

When taking a drive to the burrito shop, which is outdoor under a steel roof I could see the mechanics and tire shops working on cars under their shop's open area with metal roofs and their guard dogs hanging around with the customers. At the large burrito shop all the workers in uniforms and families eating were chatting and enjoying the fresh air and the action on the blvd. on red Coca Cola plastic chairs and tables. 

The week in San Diego was OK but all the blvd.s lined with look-a-like franchise businesses and mini strip malls with a generic architectural style and very few people actually walking in the streets is like having visual diarrhea at times.

The contrast of the two is what seems to make me feel freer, at least from all the things that are supposedly status quo in San Diego [boring at times].


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## vitrsna

Merida Yucatan said:


> Sorry, if this has already been covered in another thread.
> 
> I would be most grateful for feedback re what using Seguro Social medical
> care is like, as compared to private care. I have a health condition, so
> having to travel far and make extra trips or wait a long time or stand
> up while waiting for appointments is hard on me. Also my Spanish
> tends to be adequate for people who're making money from me, but
> sometimes bureaucrats speak too quickly for me to understand.
> 
> For those of you using Seguro Social - do you usually have to
> make an appointment in advance ? If so, can the appointment usually
> be made over the phone ? How far in advance generally do you
> need to book ? Do doctors tend to be more or less on time ?
> 
> Is it hard to find a doctor to accept new patients ? I live in a major city. It
> is likely I could find a Seguro Social doctor close to me ?
> 
> Are Seguro Social doctors co-operative at prescribing something such
> as sleeping pills ? I need them due to my medical condition but most
> doctors in Mexico are not educated about my condition. Just the same,
> private doctors prescribe chemical sleeping pills (except for Farmacia
> Similares doctors who only prescribe natural pills which don't help me.)
> 
> Have you found the medical people co-operative if your Spanish is
> limited ?
> 
> Sorry for so many questions ! Thanks in advance !


I can speak to some of your Seguro Social questions. I have 9 years of experience with Seguro Social. About 1/2 of those years were in Guadalajara and the second half in Colima were I now live. Guadalajara was somewhat hectic because of the size of the city and it does require some travelling around to the administration office to annually renew your "voluntario" status, to pay for the year (generally between 3,000 - 4,000 pesos per year depending mostly on age and the number of people you are insuring, i believe), and to specialists if they are required. Generally a person is assigned to a clinic as close to where they live as possible. Within each clinic (depending on the size), there are individual "consultorios" and you will be assigned a consultorio within your clinic. You can choose between morning or afternoon appointments. Yes, an appointment is necessary unless you need an emergency room. And, yes you can make the appointment by phone. I have never had to go to an emergency room so i don't know what that experience is like. Who ever is in your consultorio, acts as your primary care physician and will refer you to a specialist if required and if IMMS has the kind of specialist you need. I have never had to wait to see my consultorio doctor for more than 10 or 15 minutes. I have been surprised by and impressed with how advanced and efficient the administration procedures are. If you need a specialist, you may be referred to another clinic. Often there is a wait for an appointment with a specialist, i think usually your consultorio doctor will make an appointment for you. If you need to go to another clinic, you will need to take your IMMS documents first to the "archivo" of that clinic so they can prepare a file for you to take to your specialist. With any health insurance, free medications are on a list and only the medications on that list are provided without cost. Otherwise, you will need to purchase a special medication from a local pharmacy. I was referred to a specialist here in Colima who treated me with the medications on the IMMS list but i had reactions to those medications and am now seeing a private specialist not associated with IMMS so i am paying both doctor fees and for monthly medications which are surprisingly affordable.

Regarding "limited spanish", my experience has been that it would be difficult but not impossible to maneuver the system without at least "intermediate spanish". Of all the people I have encountered in my experience with IMMS in two cities, only one specialist spoke english. The people with whom you are renewing each year will most likely not speak any english, the people with whom you are making appointments with will most likely not speak english, and your consultorio doctor will most likely have limited or no english. This has been my experience. So i think "limited spanish" would be difficult especially before you learn how the system works. At the same time, i have found the people i've worked with (both at the administrative end and health care end ) extremely co-operative and kind. My personal requirements of the health system have been very limited and mostly nothing out of the ordinary...no hospital stays, no emergency rooms, etc. I hope this is helpful to you in making your decisions regarding health care, Regards


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## Merida Yucatan

Thanks for your being so kind as to offer your feedback people ! Vitrsna, it's good to hear that the people you've dealt with at IMSS have been co-operative.


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## TundraGreen

vitrsna said:


> I can speak to some of your Seguro Social questions. I have 9 years of experience with Seguro Social. About 1/2 of those years were in Guadalajara and the second half in Colima were I now live. Guadalajara was somewhat hectic because of the size of the city and it does require some travelling around to the administration office to annually renew your "voluntario" status, to pay for the year (generally between 3,000 - 4,000 pesos per year depending mostly on age and the number of people you are insuring, i believe), and to specialists if they are required. Generally a person is assigned to a clinic as close to where they live as possible. Within each clinic (depending on the size), there are individual "consultorios" and you will be assigned a consultorio within your clinic. You can choose between morning or afternoon appointments. Yes, an appointment is necessary unless you need an emergency room. And, yes you can make the appointment by phone. I have never had to go to an emergency room so i don't know what that experience is like. Who ever is in your consultorio, acts as your primary care physician and will refer you to a specialist if required and if IMMS has the kind of specialist you need. I have never had to wait to see my consultorio doctor for more than 10 or 15 minutes. I have been surprised by and impressed with how advanced and efficient the administration procedures are. If you need a specialist, you may be referred to another clinic. Often there is a wait for an appointment with a specialist, i think usually your consultorio doctor will make an appointment for you. If you need to go to another clinic, you will need to take your IMMS documents first to the "archivo" of that clinic so they can prepare a file for you to take to your specialist. With any health insurance, free medications are on a list and only the medications on that list are provided without cost. Otherwise, you will need to purchase a special medication from a local pharmacy. I was referred to a specialist here in Colima who treated me with the medications on the IMMS list but i had reactions to those medications and am now seeing a private specialist not associated with IMMS so i am paying both doctor fees and for monthly medications which are surprisingly affordable.
> 
> Regarding "limited spanish", my experience has been that it would be difficult but not impossible to maneuver the system without at least "intermediate spanish". Of all the people I have encountered in my experience with IMMS in two cities, only one specialist spoke english. The people with whom you are renewing each year will most likely not speak any english, the people with whom you are making appointments with will most likely not speak english, and your consultorio doctor will most likely have limited or no english. This has been my experience. So i think "limited spanish" would be difficult especially before you learn how the system works. At the same time, i have found the people i've worked with (both at the administrative end and health care end ) extremely co-operative and kind. My personal requirements of the health system have been very limited and mostly nothing out of the ordinary...no hospital stays, no emergency rooms, etc. I hope this is helpful to you in making your decisions regarding health care, Regards


I have two years experience with IMSS and would second everything that you say. The only thing I can add is that I did go to the emergency room once. I had to wait an hour and a half (I needed urgent care but it was not an emergency). It worked out fine. You check in at the emergency room and are assigned one of three levels of emergency and the length of wait is decided by that.


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## gudgrief

vitrsna said:


> Regards


Thanks for all the good info.

The Seguro Popular website and flyers talks about families.
The way Calderon speaks, I assume sinfles and uniones libres are eligible.
Can you confirm?


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## AlanMexicali

gudgrief said:


> Thanks for all the good info.
> 
> The Seguro Popular website and flyers talks about families.
> The way Calderon speaks, I assume sinfles and uniones libres are eligible.
> Can you confirm?


You have the Seguro Social which is only part of their name, it is Instituto Mexicano del Seguro Social, but everyone calls it by it's logo on all it's stuff, IMSS. Which is a green background with brass metal raised letters IMSS, usually or a IMMS in green letters and a funny picture above it. Nobody calls it Seguro Social.
Mixed up with:
Seguro Popular which is another federal organization, not related. It's logo is the reddy orange background with the black letters SALUD on all their stuff and is the federal gov't.'s Secretaria de Salud. and their logo can be seen on Hospital Generals, Centros de Salud clinics, Hospital Centrals, Hospitals Seguro Popular and all their trucks, ambulances and buildings etc.


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## gudgrief

AlanMexicali said:


> You have the Seguro Social which is only part of their name, it is Instituto Mexicano del Seguro Social, but everyone calls it by it's logo on all it's stuff, IMSS. Which is a green background with brass metal raised letters IMSS, usually or a IMMS in green letters and a funny picture above it. Nobody calls it Seguro Social.
> Mixed up with:
> Seguro Popular which is another federal organization, not related. It's logo is the reddy orange background with the black letters SALUD on all their stuff and is the federal gov't.'s Secretaria de Salud. and their logo can be seen on Hospital Generals, Centros de Salud clinics, Hospital Centrals, Hospitals Seguro Popular and all their trucks, ambulances and buildings etc.


For me, the distinction is clear.
I am not an inmigrante and, as I understand it, I eligible only for Seguro Popular.
Excuse the typo above.

I'm single with a female roommate, can we both get coverage as a family (union libre?)

Thanks.


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## AlanMexicali

*Seguro Poular*



gudgrief said:


> For me, the distinction is clear.
> I am not an inmigrante and, as I understand it, I eligible only for Seguro Popular.
> Excuse the typo above.
> 
> I'm single with a female roommate, can we both get coverage as a family (union libre?)
> 
> Thanks.


No you can't. It requires you registrar and individually either qualify or not. The new qualifications are: not belonging to IMMS, or ISSSTE with no disqualification for preexisting conditions, always was that way, and a resident of Mexico. I still am not sure about the financial but posted above someone found on the Seguro Popular website these above qualifications to register did not have a financial limitation now with the "Free to All" policy in place. 

One thing someone told me is that he has heard of workers being injured on the job and being questioned by Seguro Popular social workers about if they were working full time for a contractor and paying taxes and registered by the employer and receiving benefits that included the IMSS and going after contractors who were not deducting income tax and registering their workers for benefits in the construction trade in SLP very recently.


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## PieGrande

In my village,the government hospital/clinic is free. I am healthy enough I don't need medical advice much, and in most cases know how to fix minor problems myself. One exception, a year or so ago I got bit by ants, and forgot what ant bites look like. So, I asked my friend, he didn't know either, but gave me some stuff, not prednisone, but like it, and later I remembered they were ant bites.

And, last week I more or less poisoned myself. I did not know goat fat was toxic, I love fat, and ended up in the ER of the clinic because my friend was in Puebla. It seems everyone but me knew about goat fat, and they gave me pills to drop my bp, usually 110/66, and it was running 170/100. Also, some other minor medicine, no charge, and they did write a chart for me. I did not have to wait any significant amount of time, very few minutes.

The family clinic, weekdays, we used to have to take the old uncle at 7 am, and he would wait in line and not get out until 1 pm or later. The family clinic is swamped and lacks resources. The Doctor's Wife says the problem is it is free, so people go with trivial problems, because it is free, which overloads them terribly.

My stomach was blitzed for three days, and my bp. took nearly a week to go completely back to normal. A taste of mortality once in a while seems to be good for the soul.


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## AlanMexicali

*Seguro Popular Update*



AlanMexicali said:


> No you can't. It requires you registrar and individually either qualify or not. The new qualifications are: not belonging to IMMS, or ISSSTE with no disqualification for preexisting conditions, always was that way, and a resident of Mexico. I still am not sure about the financial but posted above someone found on the Seguro Popular website these above qualifications to register did not have a financial limitation now with the "Free to All" policy in place.
> 
> One thing someone told me is that he has heard of workers being injured on the job and being questioned by Seguro Popular social workers about if they were working full time for a contractor and paying taxes and registered by the employer and receiving benefits that included the IMSS and going after contractors who were not deducting income tax and registering their workers for benefits in the construction trade in SLP very recently.


I found the requirements to registrar on the official website in English:

Popular Insurance Scheme 


On another forum it has a good discourse on expats registering at the Seguro Popular in the Chapala area recently and it appears, at least for immigrants, there still is the financial questions and a sliding scale for paying if you have too much income other than the minimum to registrar for free services.


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## mickisue1

Well, now I feel better.

Coverage under the program includes "Concubine and the man having a concubine".

WHEW! I was worried about that one.


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## PieGrande

mickisue1 said:


> Well, now I feel better.
> 
> Coverage under the program includes "Concubine and the man having a concubine".
> 
> WHEW! I was worried about that one.


Well, in my village, our builder's wife says half the married couples she knows are free union, which the government chooses to call concubinage because it is done without paying them money. In our government hospital, on the glass wall of the office where instructions are posted, it has a separate block for those in that category.

This is another big difference in cultures between US and Mexico. To us, if you live together without marriage, we think of it as shacking up. In Mexico, they think of it as married, and so do their family and neighbors. This was one of the two hardest things for me to accept in this culture. To us, it seems as if you cannot be married without a piece of paper from the government.

This started with Benito Juarez, part of his battle with the Church. When he decreed one could only marry by paying cash money to the government, people started what I call private marriages, since they did not usually have cash. Now, it is part of the culture.

And, over the years, it has started making sense to me. No one is more married than a couple who believes they are married. Long, long ago, that is how most people married, the family did it. Then, the clergy said, "We are God on earth, we decide who can be married."

Then, the governments realized, *hey, the people are doing something without our permission, we can't have that*. So, now most people are convinced marriage is something only the government can do.


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## mickisue1

PieGrande said:


> Well, in my village, our builder's wife says half the married couples she knows are free union, which the government chooses to call concubinage because it is done without paying them money. In our government hospital, on the glass wall of the office where instructions are posted, it has a separate block for those in that category.
> 
> This is another big difference in cultures between US and Mexico. To us, if you live together without marriage, we think of it as shacking up. In Mexico, they think of it as married, and so do their family and neighbors. This was one of the two hardest things for me to accept in this culture. To us, it seems as if you cannot be married without a piece of paper from the government.
> 
> This started with Benito Juarez, part of his battle with the Church. When he decreed one could only marry by paying cash money to the government, people started what I call private marriages, since they did not usually have cash. Now, it is part of the culture.
> 
> And, over the years, it has started making sense to me. No one is more married than a couple who believes they are married. Long, long ago, that is how most people married, the family did it. Then, the clergy said, "We are God on earth, we decide who can be married."
> 
> Then, the governments realized, *hey, the people are doing something without our permission, we can't have that*. So, now most people are convinced marriage is something only the government can do.


I agree with that POV, actually. I just hadn't heard the term "concubine" in a government document. Made me think of the Old Testament, and stories from that time in history.

My daughter's fiancé has two cousins, both with kids, who are not married. It's not uncommon, even in the middle class, in Italy. The laws for things such as parental leave are more generous if you aren't married than if you are. 

So much so, that Daughter is considering babies first, marriage second. I kind of gulp at the thought, actually, but it's not my decision.


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## RVGRINGO

In Mexico, only the government marriage is legal and is registered with the local 'registro publico'. Some have two weddings, the second being in the church. Then, there is the big 'fiesta', which may last through the night and into the next day; with or without the bride and groom.


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## Merida Yucatan

AlanMexicali, thanks for pointing out that (as I now understand) Seguro Social is the default insurance available for those who don't have other institutional coverage in Mexico.


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## AlanMexicali

*Seguro Popular*



Merida Yucatan said:


> AlanMexicali, thanks for pointing out that (as I now understand) Seguro Social is the default insurance available for those who don't have other institutional coverage in Mexico.


When I was registered about 2 years ago I was asked a few financial questions and was accepted. Since then Calderon publicly announced now the Seguro Popular is free to all residents of Mexico not cover by any other program. When I was there in Feb. at their Hospital Central in San Luis Potosi there was a large sign that stated: "If anyone solitudes you for a payment, report them." It is a little confusing to me.


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## PieGrande

I am told concubine is the legal term used by the government. To us from NOB it reeks of Arab sheiks with a harem, but it is the legal term here. The people themselves say, "wife". Those of you who know many Mexican people, there is a good chance many husbands and wives you know are in fact living in free union. No one will explain that to you, you have to be inside the family structure in most cases to know. They do not consider it worth discussing.


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## Isla Verde

PieGrande said:


> I am told concubine is the legal term used by the government. To us from NOB it reeks of Arab sheiks with a harem, but it is the legal term here. The people themselves say, "wife". Those of you who know many Mexican people, there is a good chance many husbands and wives you know are in fact living in free union. No one will explain that to you, you have to be inside the family structure in most cases to know. They do not consider it worth discussing.


This reminds me of my neighbor across the hall, whom I always knew as a confirmed bachelor. Then a few months ago there appeared in the hallway a woman with a young child and a couple of other members of her family. Since the child was making a lot of noise, I stuck my head out my apartment door and asked, very nicely, if I could help them. The mother of the child told me that she was waiting for her "husband". Now, she doesn't live with my neighbor, though she and her retinue visit from time to time, and the child calls my neighbor, "papá", which is the only time I've seen him be pleasant to anyone (he is the neighbor no one likes), so I assume the child is his. And I find it interesting that the mother of the child refers to herself as my neighbor's wife. I have no idea if he thinks of himself as her husband. Since we never speak, I can't ask him!


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## TundraGreen

PieGrande said:


> I am told concubine is the legal term used by the government. To us from NOB it reeks of Arab sheiks with a harem, but it is the legal term here. The people themselves say, "wife". Those of you who know many Mexican people, there is a good chance many husbands and wives you know are in fact living in free union. No one will explain that to you, you have to be inside the family structure in most cases to know. They do not consider it worth discussing.


My spanish teacher recently married her husband. They have been together for 15 years and she always referred to him as her esposo. I didn't realize they weren't married until she told me they just went through a civil ceremony. They married for the IMSS coverage. She has it, he didn't.


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## PieGrande

Perfect examples of what I was saying. Thanks.


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