# Farang Nak Muay, wanting sak yant. Thai opinion



## Owen1987

Hello guys,

I thought as expats you will be able to give me the best honest opinion on the thai's view of farang wearing their religions Yants as tattoos.

Obviously its easy to bash this for clear cut reasons including "are you buddhist...no? then yes its offensive", you dont need to be an expert to realise this as a potential view thai's will uphold, but i was interested in how strong this is. 

So let me set the scene. Ive been thai boxing for three years, been training in thailand for 4 week stints twice at gyms in the southern area and north. Many farang i meet have Yants, often done by machine as opposed to traditional methods.

I have always wanted to get a tiger yant on my back for protection, subscribing to the popular spiritual belief and as a meaningful tattoo for both my time in thailand, fighting and as hommage to what it represents. However i would not want a tattoo that further aggrevates tension between westerners and native thai's. I would want this tattoo to pay respect to everything they believe in when entering the ring and their view on how to conduct a proper life. I am aware of the general rules of abstinence.

This i believe makes me a candidate for a Sak Yant. When a native thai see's this tattoo is it likely they will take this as disrespect, or will given the circumstances that i am there as a nak muay will they appreciate a westerner with markings similiar to the khrus and masters who have taught him.. or is this too far.

Honest opinions welcome.. The real questions i would want answered are
1. Is it disrespect full stop for a westerner to have a tattoo who is not a strict buddhist
2. Should this be done by a machine tattooist as opposed to a traditional as more of a tattoo symbolic of respect? Or is this just worse as it perpetuates the dilluting of their religious practices
:boxing:

I can imagine the feedback i am too receive, but never the less i am curious. Thanks a lot,
Owen


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## gino

*Seems there is a higher authority than here*

I am no fan whatsoever of tattoos. In my view, tattoos range from mildly unattractive to quite hideous and even the mildly unattractive tattoos gradually degenerate toward the hideous range as they fade and the skin ages. I particularly dislike tattoos on girls, models and actors, not that you fall into any of these categories. But then, I dislike most forms of adornment, including piercing, acrylic nails, bleached/tinted hair, augmentations, decorative scarring and tinted contact lenses. 

If you are as concerned as you claim to be with whether your actions will be regarded as disrespectful, you might pay a little more attention to the little things, such as capitalizing words like _Buddhist_ and _Thai_. Somehow, and it may just be me, it seemed very odd that you would capitalize _Yant Sak_, but not other words that are ordinarily capitalized. If anything, most people would do the opposite, which makes your idiosyncratic capitalization pattern seem deliberately disrespectful, as if you place greater value on the symbols of reverence than the actual practice. 

Yantra tattooing has a spiritual component. Apparently, the center is Wat Bang Pra in Nakhon Chaysri. As you seem particularly concerned with both authenticity and with criticism you might receive, why don’t you go there for your tattoo? If the monks say you are not ready, you will know you need further training or spiritual enlightenment or whatever before you are prepared to wear such a tattoo. But if the monks agree to tattoo you and anybody criticizes you for wearing it, you have the ultimate defense: the tattoo was applied by the authorities in these matters.


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## Owen1987

*Response to that*



ginocox said:


> I am no fan whatsoever of tattoos. In my view, tattoos range from mildly unattractive to quite hideous and even the mildly unattractive tattoos gradually degenerate toward the hideous range as they fade and the skin ages. I particularly dislike tattoos on girls, models and actors, not that you fall into any of these categories. But then, I dislike most forms of adornment, including piercing, acrylic nails, bleached/tinted hair, augmentations, decorative scarring and tinted contact lenses.
> 
> If you are as concerned as you claim to be with whether your actions will be regarded as disrespectful, you might pay a little more attention to the little things, such as capitalizing words like _Buddhist_ and _Thai_. Somehow, and it may just be me, it seemed very odd that you would capitalize _Yant Sak_, but not other words that are ordinarily capitalized. If anything, most people would do the opposite, which makes your idiosyncratic capitalization pattern seem deliberately disrespectful, as if you place greater value on the symbols of reverence than the actual practice.
> 
> Yantra tattooing has a spiritual component. Apparently, the center is Wat Bang Pra in Nakhon Chaysri. As you seem particularly concerned with both authenticity and with criticism you might receive, why don’t you go there for your tattoo? If the monks say you are not ready, you will know you need further training or spiritual enlightenment or whatever before you are prepared to wear such a tattoo. But if the monks agree to tattoo you and anybody criticizes you for wearing it, you have the ultimate defense: the tattoo was applied by the authorities in these matters.



First of all, thanks for the reply. 

I should have mentioned that I am travelling back to train in Thailand this summer for training and will obviously spend time researching this further before I make any decisions. I wrote here because I thought as ex pats you would be knowledgeable on the attitudes and social norms intrinsic in Thailand. I also thought as it was more than likely the response would come from a Westerner there would be no problem in communication and a degree of honesty would be included. True to form there is obviously no problem in communication and no compromised veracity here!

I was impressed by the number of subtle aspersions you decided to cast on my character, taking time out of your day to doubt the validity of my statements and construct such a patronising reply to a forum post without actually answering it. That was my first post and I must say I am impressed at a response within 37 minutes. However, I am not so impressed by your attitude Sonny Jim (did I get the capitals right?). 

"Your idiosyncratic capitalization pattern seem deliberately disrespectful" :ranger: - I can't help but wonder where the motivation for such a plethora of bold and outright garish assumptions to form that sentence came from. Please forgive me Gino, it seems I held a foolish belief that forums were informal! I would love to return the favour and postulate on your socio-political traits (I guess that's what you would label an idiosyncratic capitalization pattern) but I don't feel it is a means to an end.

I can empathize with your anti-western nature to a degree (I did it. oops!), especially as you have emigrated from the U.S.A. Living and training in the gyms I have acquired a disliking for western tourists in South East Asia. There is a great level of Western ignorance evident through-out the South which seems abhorrent with the modest and honest Thai culture. I get incredibly embarrassed by the louts and old men alike who want to use Thailand as a playground. This is in part why I care how a Thai would interpret a tattoo such as the one I am investigating getting. I am all to aware of the negative social pressures the West is putting on the lifestyle of the Thai. In the gyms I have been too many Farang have Yant's as do the trainers. The trainers have made comments in the past after mentioned their Tiger Yants, such as "(I) can get one". This is not however, a indication of a Thais directional perspective on this.

I naively thought that I'd come across one of the many ex pats in Thailand who enjoys Muay Thai, is aware of the stadium 'scene' and could give me a honest opinion of what he or she thought of the Farang boxers over there who brandish any of these tattoos. My assumption was more likely than not, I'd get an answer like; "I know plenty of lads who trained in the gym over here near me, They hav Yants. As boxers it's common as long as you pay respect to the rules of having one and show good character and heart having Yants on a Farang Nak Muay is not a bad thing. P.S. Probably best to get it done by machine pen, as the ritualistic bamboo practice of tattooing by a monk and having it blessed can be habitually offensive".... Wishful thinking with Gino around! :focus:

Anyways, If anyone could answer my question it would be much appreciated! 
Thanks, Owen


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## gino

*Definitely bamboo*

Recognizing that I am one of the least unbiased observers you can find on the subject of tattoos, I think you should definitely take advantage of some simple Thai integrity and go the route of the monk with the bamboo splinters. Hopefully, the monk will tell you what seems obvious to me from your post, that you are not yet ready for such a tattoo. 

If you’re looking for insight into the Thai mindset, you should be aware that a recurrent subject on this forum has been the lack of empathy, curiosity and understanding regarding such matters among expats. 

In my somewhat didactic and dogmatic view, informality neither excuses errors nor precludes correct English usage. I would argue it is particularly important on a board such as this for two reasons. First, many expats are ESL teachers and are more sensitive to such errors. Correct English is a form of respect, particularly when one knows the audience is particularly attuned to errors. Second, while English is the _lingua franca _for this board, many of the participants are non-native speakers for whom deciphering errors presents a particular challenge. If you don’t believe me, try making sense of some chatroom Thai with misspellings, colloquialisms and missing tone marks. 

Sorry if I seemed to give your post too much attention, but the board was a bit dead. It was either your post or weigh in on the fluffy towel and global warming debate. Now that you’ve indicated exactly what you want to hear, perhaps another participant will oblige.


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## Guest

ginocox said:


> It was either your post or weigh in on the fluffy towel and global warming debate. Now that you’ve indicated exactly what you want to hear, perhaps another participant will oblige.


I shall oblige, in the morning... recently back from a long drive Owen, but I'll offer up some thoughts when my head has cleared.

Gino... if you're bored with fluffy towels, do drop in on the gun-totin' thread in the US forum. Page six, especially MannaPro's latest comment left me struggling for coherent thought, so I'm considering resorting to a bottle of Burgundy instead.


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## Guest

I wouldn't have thought that the views of expats - Muay Thai fans or not - were particularly relevant on this issue. If there is a specific ritualistic side linked to tattoos on Thai boxers, then I'm unaware of it - which would hardly be surprising.

I would ask a trainer, or another boxer. I imagine if you were to ask a senior Buddhist monk, you would get a reply along the lines of a tattoo being appropriate according to your understanding of its significance, combined with your depth of your sincerity. To most members of the Sangha - in my experience anyway - with respect to such questions, actually being a Buddhist is almost irrelevant. Just as attending a Buddhist retreat does not depend on your belief in reincarnation, etc. Christians, atheists etc are welcome.


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## Mr. Soap

*A Thai Opinion*

I have no knowledge about sak yant but I did some reading and found out that you can do oil sak yant that has the same effect as the ink kind but shows no figure on your skin. I also posted your questions on a Thai website and I got this answer:

“ได้ซิทำไมจะไม่ได้ ข้อยกเว้นขึ้นอยู่กับอาจารย์ผู้สักให้ ส่วนใหญ่ถ้าเป็นยันต์มักมีครู ซึ่งจะมีพิธีบ้าง แล้วแต่รูป ไม่มีหรอกที่ใครสักได้อีกคนสักไม่ได้ สักได้หมดเหละ ทนเจ็บได้ ถือ(ตบะ)ตามที่ครูบอกได้ ก็สักได้หมด”

“Yes, why not. The exception depends on the Khru (tattooist) who works on you. Most of the yants have spiritual khrus which require rituals and offerings according to the yants. There is no such thing that one can have it and others cannot. You can have any yants you want, providing you can bare the pains and follow the strict entailing rules the khru tells you.” 

What will the Thai think of you? The same way they think of others with tattoos. Some may feel indifferent, most probably feel repulsed and a few may like them. A yant done by the old traditional method is more difficult therefore more respected by those yant wearers.

Other nak muays may be impressed if they know the meaning of the yants and who put them on but I believe most Thais may not, because very few of us know which yant represents what. I, for one, do not know any meaning of any yants and I have been around. Then again I’m not an avid boxing fan. However we are impressed by any farang in the ring doing Muay Thai.
Mrs. Soap


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## KhwaamLap

I second Mrs Soap (does Mr Soap ever actually post or was it a typo when you signed up?).

As far as I am aware you can have any yant you wish, but it should really be done the traditional way (and no alcohol as it makes you bleed more!). Though Buddhist monks will do this, these are really more animist and Brahman than Buddhist. If you have it done properly, people will respect the pain you went through and the respect you obviously have for the belief. Who would go to all that pain and trouble just to take the mickey? A machine tat may have the opposite affect! 

My father-in-law has suggested I get several - including ones to ward off knives and bullets, sexual problems, anger and so on. Personally not my cup of tea, but I say if you are willing, really want it, then go for it.


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## Mr. Soap

I second Mrs Soap (does Mr Soap ever actually post or was it a typo when you signed up?).


Mr. Soap posted once and told a short story of his career and why we are still stuck in States this winter. We've been living in Thailand (Suphanburi) every winter since 2004. This winter there was a medical issue which he explained in his post that stopped us from taking the trip. We had to return the tickets. Actually our luggage are still packed. Mr. soap kissed the Blarney Stone and he loves to talk to almost anybody (not that it's the effect of the stone) but his post got no reply so he stays out. If you get to know him you would like him. He has a great sense of humor. He is kind, generous, does not drink nor smokes. When we are in Thailand we volunteer some of our time teaching English at local schools, sometimes with another British expat in the area.
Anyway, his PET scan last Monday is basically clear and his treatment will be over at the end of this month. I would like him to participate in the forum but I guess there is no subject that interests him yet.
Mrs. Soap


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## andyhenry

For what it's worth - bump - I was discussing this with a few of the trainers at my gym recently. 

There was a general burst of hilarity as a holidaymaker swaggered past, and when I asked what was so amusing they pointed out a veritable smorgasbord of fresh yant vying for space alongside several "macho" tatts on his upper torso.

When I pointed out several of the giggling Thais had the same designs the concensus was that they had earned them / had them during their fight careers to ward off danger and injury - whereas he was simply a fashion victim.

Yants seem to be the current backpacker/student gap year version of the celtic bands so regretted by many of my generation. Whilst they may look "ethnic" and "interesting" back home, much like the fisherman's pants worn only by middle-class caucasian flashpackers, they seem to amuse the Thais and reinforce the view that most farang are a bit simple.

However, in terms of spiritual credibility there seems to be a fair amount of flexibility in interpreting the credos. Most of my yanted trainers seem to enjoy alcohol and admiring female farang form - both of which are contrary to the required deprivations:eyebrows:


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