# Gay in Spain II



## SickOfAmerica

Hello/Hola
The only thread I found on this issue is from 2012. My partner and I are starting to think about fleeing America. I've been researching Costa Rica and Spain. I really don't like "forums". That said, I am interested in finding a gay couple (or more) to become e-penpals with to have meaningful private discussions to further explore Spain as a possible escape from what America has become. I literally cannot stand it here anymore and REALLY want out.

Please, if there is anyone out there that is interested in corresponding I would love to hear from you.

Thank you.


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## fortrose52

Maybe you could try a Gay Spain Facebook group. Or areas where there is a lot of Gay friendly support areas such as Sitges. Good luck. I do not blame you for wanting to leave


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## Nn53470

SickOfAmerica said:


> Hello/Hola
> The only thread I found on this issue is from 2012. My partner and I are starting to think about fleeing America. I've been researching Costa Rica and Spain. I really don't like "forums". That said, I am interested in finding a gay couple (or more) to become e-penpals with to have meaningful private discussions to further explore Spain as a possible escape from what America has become. I literally cannot stand it here anymore and REALLY want out.
> 
> Please, if there is anyone out there that is interested in corresponding I would love to hear from you.
> 
> Thank you.


I'm just genuinely curious as to what's going on over there as I live in Spain but am moving to the states this year! I'm not gay or a gay couple though have many friends who are here... not sure if I'd be of any help!


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## SickOfAmerica

fortrose52 said:


> Maybe you could try a Gay Spain Facebook group. Or areas where there is a lot of Gay friendly support areas such as Sitges. Good luck. I do not blame you for wanting to leave


I do not use "social media", so no facebook, twitter or other such nonsense. If you have access to Netflix, I recommend the docudrama The Social Dilemma.


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## xabiaxica

I'm not sure that you'll get a lot of response tbh.

Being gay in Spain is pretty much the same as being straight in Spain. It isn't something that seems to be an issue that needs to be discussed very often. I have gay friends, we have some gay members who are currently active on the forum. Points they have made previously are that they look for friends with similar interests, & being gay (or not) doesn't come into it.

Here are some previous - quite old - discussions. Nothing has changed from what I see, despite Vox trying.








Gay Social Groups


Hi Myself and partner will be coming to spain soon, and just wondering if there are any social groups that meet for gay people. We are aware of the different gay scenes in spain, but these can not always provide a base to find friendships, so a group would be nice. If anyone has any information...




www.expatforum.com













Spanish attitudes towards homosexuality


Hello, forum newbie here :) Just a hypothetical: Some time in the future, I (female) might consider relocating to Spain with my partner (also female). Are there any gay couples on the forum who've relocated to Spain from the UK, or do you know anyone who has? What are your experiences? Thanks!




www.expatforum.com













New to this... Hello & Gay LIfe in Spain?


Hi, Just found your forum. Got some good advice from it - thanks. Thought I would say hello to all. Thinking of relocating to spain with my boyfriend and was wondering what life really is like for two gay men living together in spain. I expect like eveerywhere the big cities are better, i...




www.expatforum.com













Moving to Spain


Dear All, We're a gay couple from Russia raising a child and expecting a second child to arrive shortly. Taking into account anti-gay campaign that has recently started in Russia and especially a law which is being considered now to allow kids to be taken to orphanages from gay families, we are...




www.expatforum.com


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## SickOfAmerica

Thanks. We're not particularly looking for gay groups or clubs, etc. and you've pretty much answered the main question when you said being gay there is pretty much like being straight there. That said, for all of the progress here, gays are still persecuted by bible-thumping bigots that just don't understand the live and let live philosophy. We're really interested in getting to know people with the experience there, weather, cost of living, quality and accessibility of health care. Being gay isn't a requirement for correspondence, but it does help to converse with similar people to more accurately assess what OUR lifestyle would be like there. We're both non-flamboyant, unassuming, privacy loving people looking for a small home away from a city center with a decent sized yard and not having neighbor's so close that they can hear you breathing😉 and of course affordable. Your input is appreciated. Thanks.


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## Amy123123

"weather, cost of living, quality and accessibility of health care."

Well Spain ticks all these boxes but of course things vary a lot across the country and whether you're in a city, in a town, isolated in the mountains etc.

I don't want to put a downer on things but have you looked at the costs and red tape involved in moving here? It's not easy unless you're very rich (though for all I know you are!), so I'd encourage you to research that before getting your hopes up.


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## Isobella

I have always found the USA to be one of the most supportive of Gay people. My BIL is gay and travels there a lot. 

I am sure this is not your scene but an example of how gay friendly some places in Spain are.








Gay Torremolinos Guide 2023 - bars, clubs, saunas & beach


The best gay bars & dance clubs, gay-rated hotels, gay saunas, cruise clubs and gay beaches in Torremolinos, Spain. Reviews, maps & discounts



www.travelgay.com


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## SickOfAmerica

Amy123123 said:


> "weather, cost of living, quality and accessibility of health care."
> 
> Well Spain ticks all these boxes but of course things vary a lot across the country and whether you're in a city, in a town, isolated in the mountains etc.
> 
> I don't want to put a downer on things but have you looked at the costs and red tape involved in moving here? It's not easy unless you're very rich (though for all I know you are!), so I'd encourage you to research that before getting your hopes up.


Thanks. I didn't view your response as a downer. I've just recently determined that I want to leave and have just begun researching the places I've read about in "top (#) gay-friendly countries to retire to" lists and other such input, like this😁 
We are by no means "rich" (some may argue that and it's always relative to where you live), so traveling the world to experience different ways to live really isn't in my future. Oh well, probably just a pipe dream anyway.


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## SickOfAmerica

Isobella said:


> I have always found the USA to be one of the most supportive of Gay people. My BIL is gay and travels there a lot.
> 
> I am sure this is not your scene but an example of how gay friendly some places in Spain are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gay Torremolinos Guide 2023 - bars, clubs, saunas & beach
> 
> 
> The best gay bars & dance clubs, gay-rated hotels, gay saunas, cruise clubs and gay beaches in Torremolinos, Spain. Reviews, maps & discounts
> 
> 
> 
> www.travelgay.com


Thanks. You're correct, not my scene. For us, being gay is not a lifestyle, just one aspect of who we are as ppl. Just trying to get a feel for if 2 men living together is an issue.. which actually still is in many areas of the USA. For instance I would never feel comfortable in the deep south. The other catch-22 is it's usually more accepted in large cities than in small towns, and it's usually way more expensive to live in large cities.


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## xabiaxica

SickOfAmerica said:


> Thanks. I didn't view your response as a downer. I've just recently determined that I want to leave and have just begun researching the places I've read about in "top (#) gay-friendly countries to retire to" lists and other such input, like this😁
> We are by no means "rich" (some may argue that and it's always relative to where you live), so traveling the world to experience different ways to live really isn't in my future. Oh well, probably just a pipe dream anyway.


Take a look at the visa requirements. It's from the Consulate in London, but requirements are the same for all third country citizens.





Visas (FAQ)







www.exteriores.gob.es




One thing you will definitely need is health insurance. Don't panic though - it's MUCH more affordable in Spain.


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## Amy123123

SickOfAmerica said:


> Thanks. I didn't view your response as a downer. I've just recently determined that I want to leave and have just begun researching the places I've read about in "top (#) gay-friendly countries to retire to" lists and other such input, like this😁
> We are by no means "rich" (some may argue that and it's always relative to where you live), so traveling the world to experience different ways to live really isn't in my future. Oh well, probably just a pipe dream anyway.


I mean, you can stay here for 3 months without a visa, and affordable accomodation with everything you need is easy to arrange on airbnb. So if travelling is more your goal than setting up roots, especially if you can work remotely or have other income, there are means and ways.

And the visa requirements are still worth a look.


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## SickOfAmerica

xabiaxica said:


> Take a look at the visa requirements. It's from the Consulate in London, but requirements are the same for all third country citizens.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Visas (FAQ)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.exteriores.gob.es
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One thing you will definitely need is health insurance. Don't panic though - it's MUCH more affordable in Spain.


Thank you. Very helpful tip and good news on the Health Insurance topic.


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## CltFlyboy

We're planning to relocate to about an hour south of Sitges in 3-4 years from the US. I have to admit that when I read your subject and first post that I thought you were looking for gay specific feedback. From my experience, this forum has been an excellent resource to study, but the amount of info for US based people is a bit limited since it appears the majority of users here are from the UK or EU. And fwiw I grew up in a hair salon - my mom owned one here for over 40 years. Some of my best friends and memories were with a few of her gay employees (who are unfortunately no longer with us).

There are a lot of nuances and requirements for us as US citizens to relocate there; you should look into the different types of visas available. It can be a bit overwhelming for sure. The primary way to go from what I'd researched is via the non-lucrative visa. That requires about $30k USD in the bank as proof of the ability to support yourself for a year. Add (I think) $7000 per partner to this. It's cumulative too, so the second year you need more, etc. Another way is via the "golden visa", which requires a 500k euro investment in real estate (it can be on a note from what I've found so far). So if you're looking at property, that might be a great way to go, especially since housing here in the US costs a lot more - 500k isn't a big hurdle.

A call to the Spanish consulate that is closest to you might be in order as they can tell you all the specifics you'll need - and yes, you'll get a different answer/set of requirements from the different consulates. 

Welcome to the forum (which, to be pedantic, is social media  ) and I'm looking forward to interacting with you - us US guys need all the support we can give each other!

Talk soon.

--Henry


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## SickOfAmerica

CltFlyboy said:


> We're planning to relocate to about an hour south of Sitges in 3-4 years from the US. I have to admit that when I read your subject and first post that I thought you were looking for gay specific feedback. From my experience, this forum has been an excellent resource to study, but the amount of info for US based people is a bit limited since it appears the majority of users here are from the UK or EU. And fwiw I grew up in a hair salon - my mom owned one here for over 40 years. Some of my best friends and memories were with a few of her gay employees (who are unfortunately no longer with us).
> 
> There are a lot of nuances and requirements for us as US citizens to relocate there; you should look into the different types of visas available. It can be a bit overwhelming for sure. The primary way to go from what I'd researched is via the non-lucrative visa. That requires about $30k USD in the bank as proof of the ability to support yourself for a year. Add (I think) $7000 per partner to this. It's cumulative too, so the second year you need more, etc. Another way is via the "golden visa", which requires a 500k euro investment in real estate (it can be on a note from what I've found so far). So if you're looking at property, that might be a great way to go, especially since housing here in the US costs a lot more - 500k isn't a big hurdle.
> 
> A call to the Spanish consulate that is closest to you might be in order as they can tell you all the specifics you'll need - and yes, you'll get a different answer/set of requirements from the different consulates.
> 
> Welcome to the forum (which, to be pedantic, is social media  ) and I'm looking forward to interacting with you - us US guys need all the support we can give each other!
> 
> Talk soon.
> 
> --Henry


LOL, yeah I realize this is a form of social media, but it's not like Big Brother Google and Facebook.

$500k is even too expensive, we're looking in the $325k range for a house and yard. Sounds like permanent residency there isn't possible on that.


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## CltFlyboy

You can get permanent residency as a renter, it's just the golden visa that required 500k and all that really does is speed up the permanent residency (and ultimately citizenship if that's your bag). We've even considered bagging the whole home ownership thing and buying a small apartment that would be plenty for us - those are very affordable, even ones on the water in the areas we want to live (not Sitges of course - that place has a whole 'nother definition of "money"!).

They don't exactly make it easy to navigate the ins- and outs of visas, it's still confusing and I've been seriously digging into this for about a year and a half. BUT the payoff will be worth it - I can't wait to be on the Mediterranean coast waking up every day to those views and, most important, the great people we met there.

Good luck, keep in touch.


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## xicoalc

In terms of "it is ok to be gay in spain?. The answer is yes. Im not saying that perhaps in some oldy villages off the beaten track there is not the old hombre del pueblo that may be surprised to see two men holding hands but im talking about the same stereotype who may be surprised to hear that there's colour tv or a global pandemic.

In nearly two decades of Spanish life i have never had a raised eyebrow or been treated any differently for being gay than any straight person. As others have said, spain is more about the people with sexualidad just being a part of you, like gair colour or anything else. 

From the official dealings ive had through to business dealings, getting married, just living in general, i can honestly say that spanish people are some of the most welcoming people who really adopt a "live and let live" attitude.

When you introduce your same sex partner, there is never a pause, think amd "im ok with that, i met a gay once". Its usually just a "hello, pleased to meet you" as youd expect in "normality" 

The last time i was in the uk we went to a hotel in london where we booked a double room. Checked in and as he was handing us the key he stopped and apologised and said he was giving wrong key as obviously a mistake was made. I asked the mistake and he said "this is a double bed, its ok, we have a twin available"

That wouldn't happen in spain! They may ask to confirm "you're booking is a double room for 3 nights, correct?" and thats it

And with regards to the old religious people, when we got married the photographer suggested a few locations for the part of the album after the honeymoon, where we got dressed up again... You know... A few half dressed in the sea, a few with buce backdrops etc. We went to a village where there is a beautiful church and the service was going on. We took a few photos and then it was kicking out time at the church. 

We were there, 2 guys in wedding suits with a photographer. The old religious people all stood watching, clapping and wishing us luck. Then they started shouting "kiss kiss" in Spanish. So a true reflection on Spain in my opinion!

I work with Spanish of all ages, heading up a team of around 100. The youngest being 20 or 21 and the oldest nearly 70. They all know im gay, most have met my husband, many came to my wedding. Nobody cares. The younger ones make jokes but jokes because they are so open minded.... Nothing homophobic ever... But sometimes jokes (you can imagine) followed always by a hug or a kiss (straight spanish men kiss a lot!) 

In brief, dont expect sexualidad to really come into the picture. People see a couple and thats all. 

As for going out, night life etc... Do as you please. They let gays in straight bars in spain too! Order a table for 2 and ask for a romantic spot and youll get it. Your friends will be a mix of everything here.

If you like the gay scene then youll find everything from bars to the more.. 
. Ermmm.... Lets say "the ones who obviously didn't pay the electricity bill as theres no lights". But even in those places youll surely find some women and straight men too... And why not... They probably go dor rhe music 
... (all of this im told on the grapevine, id never ever go in those god darn awful places, honesty!!)

Oh and if thats not enough, hate crime is taken very seriously in spain. If a strange god loving homophobic says anything bad they'll be locked up!

Only bad experience i had was a British builder who said "ill work for you, but just so you know, back in the uk, people like you got beaten up... But i dont have a problem as long as you don't touch my arse"

I sacked him and wouldn't ever use a guiri again!

Hope it helps


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## SickOfAmerica

CltFlyboy said:


> You can get permanent residency as a renter, it's just the golden visa that required 500k and all that really does is speed up the permanent residency (and ultimately citizenship if that's your bag). We've even considered bagging the whole home ownership thing and buying a small apartment that would be plenty for us - those are very affordable, even ones on the water in the areas we want to live (not Sitges of course - that place has a whole 'nother definition of "money"!).
> 
> They don't exactly make it easy to navigate the ins- and outs of visas, it's still confusing and I've been seriously digging into this for about a year and a half. BUT the payoff will be worth it - I can't wait to be on the Mediterranean coast waking up every day to those views and, most important, the great people we met there.
> 
> Good luck, keep in touch.


Thanks. I will start Investigating visas, and I imagine like here, the warner weather will be in the south. I'd love to visit the Canary Islands too but pretty sure living there would be out of our price range.


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## xicoalc

xicoalc said:


> In terms of "it is ok to be gay in spain?. The answer is yes. Im not saying that perhaps in some oldy villages off the beaten track there is not the old hombre del pueblo that may be surprised to see two men holding hands but im talking about the same stereotype who may be surprised to hear that there's colour tv or a global pandemic.
> 
> In nearly two decades of Spanish life i have never had a raised eyebrow or been treated any differently for being gay than any straight person. As others have said, spain is more about the people with sexualidad just being a part of you, like gair colour or anything else.
> 
> From the official dealings ive had through to business dealings, getting married, just living in general, i can honestly say that spanish people are some of the most welcoming people who really adopt a "live and let live" attitude.
> 
> When you introduce your same sex partner, there is never a pause, think amd "im ok with that, i met a gay once". Its usually just a "hello, pleased to meet you" as youd expect in "normality"
> 
> The last time i was in the uk we went to a hotel in london where we booked a double room. Checked in and as he was handing us the key he stopped and apologised and said he was giving wrong key as obviously a mistake was made. I asked the mistake and he said "this is a double bed, its ok, we have a twin available"
> 
> That wouldn't happen in spain! They may ask to confirm "you're booking is a double room for 3 nights, correct?" and thats it
> 
> And with regards to the old religious people, when we got married the photographer suggested a few locations for the part of the album after the honeymoon, where we got dressed up again... You know... A few half dressed in the sea, a few with buce backdrops etc. We went to a village where there is a beautiful church and the service was going on. We took a few photos and then it was kicking out time at the church.
> 
> We were there, 2 guys in wedding suits with a photographer. The old religious people all stood watching, clapping and wishing us luck. Then they started shouting "kiss kiss" in Spanish. So a true reflection on Spain in my opinion!
> 
> I work with Spanish of all ages, heading up a team of around 100. The youngest being 20 or 21 and the oldest nearly 70. They all know im gay, most have met my husband, many came to my wedding. Nobody cares. The younger ones make jokes but jokes because they are so open minded.... Nothing homophobic ever... But sometimes jokes (you can imagine) followed always by a hug or a kiss (straight spanish men kiss a lot!)
> 
> In brief, dont expect sexualidad to really come into the picture. People see a couple and thats all.
> 
> As for going out, night life etc... Do as you please. They let gays in straight bars in spain too! Order a table for 2 and ask for a romantic spot and youll get it. Your friends will be a mix of everything here.
> 
> If you like the gay scene then youll find everything from bars to the more..
> . Ermmm.... Lets say "the ones who obviously didn't pay the electricity bill as theres no lights". But even in those places youll surely find some women and straight men too... And why not... They probably go dor rhe music
> ... (all of this im told on the grapevine, id never ever go in those god darn awful places, honesty!!)
> 
> Oh and if thats not enough, hate crime is taken very seriously in spain. If a strange god loving homophobic says anything bad they'll be locked up!
> 
> Only bad experience i had was a British builder who said "ill work for you, but just so you know, back in the uk, people like you got beaten up... But i dont have a problem as long as you don't touch my arse"
> 
> I sacked him and wouldn't ever use a guiri again!
> 
> Hope it helps


To add to my earlier post. Id recommend highly the 3 month visit and explore the areas. Get a feel (so to speak) and see where feels home.


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## SickOfAmerica

xicoalc said:


> In terms of "it is ok to be gay in spain?. The answer is yes. Im not saying that perhaps in some oldy villages off the beaten track there is not the old hombre del pueblo that may be surprised to see two men holding hands but im talking about the same stereotype who may be surprised to hear that there's colour tv or a global pandemic.
> 
> In nearly two decades of Spanish life i have never had a raised eyebrow or been treated any differently for being gay than any straight person. As others have said, spain is more about the people with sexualidad just being a part of you, like gair colour or anything else.
> 
> From the official dealings ive had through to business dealings, getting married, just living in general, i can honestly say that spanish people are some of the most welcoming people who really adopt a "live and let live" attitude.
> 
> When you introduce your same sex partner, there is never a pause, think amd "im ok with that, i met a gay once". Its usually just a "hello, pleased to meet you" as youd expect in "normality"
> 
> The last time i was in the uk we went to a hotel in london where we booked a double room. Checked in and as he was handing us the key he stopped and apologised and said he was giving wrong key as obviously a mistake was made. I asked the mistake and he said "this is a double bed, its ok, we have a twin available"
> 
> That wouldn't happen in spain! They may ask to confirm "you're booking is a double room for 3 nights, correct?" and thats it
> 
> And with regards to the old religious people, when we got married the photographer suggested a few locations for the part of the album after the honeymoon, where we got dressed up again... You know... A few half dressed in the sea, a few with buce backdrops etc. We went to a village where there is a beautiful church and the service was going on. We took a few photos and then it was kicking out time at the church.
> 
> We were there, 2 guys in wedding suits with a photographer. The old religious people all stood watching, clapping and wishing us luck. Then they started shouting "kiss kiss" in Spanish. So a true reflection on Spain in my opinion!
> 
> I work with Spanish of all ages, heading up a team of around 100. The youngest being 20 or 21 and the oldest nearly 70. They all know im gay, most have met my husband, many came to my wedding. Nobody cares. The younger ones make jokes but jokes because they are so open minded.... Nothing homophobic ever... But sometimes jokes (you can imagine) followed always by a hug or a kiss (straight spanish men kiss a lot!)
> 
> In brief, dont expect sexualidad to really come into the picture. People see a couple and thats all.
> 
> As for going out, night life etc... Do as you please. They let gays in straight bars in spain too! Order a table for 2 and ask for a romantic spot and youll get it. Your friends will be a mix of everything here.
> 
> If you like the gay scene then youll find everything from bars to the more..
> . Ermmm.... Lets say "the ones who obviously didn't pay the electricity bill as theres no lights". But even in those places youll surely find some women and straight men too... And why not... They probably go dor rhe music
> ... (all of this im told on the grapevine, id never ever go in those god darn awful places, honesty!!)
> 
> Oh and if thats not enough, hate crime is taken very seriously in spain. If a strange god loving homophobic says anything bad they'll be locked up!
> 
> Only bad experience i had was a British builder who said "ill work for you, but just so you know, back in the uk, people like you got beaten up... But i dont have a problem as long as you don't touch my arse"
> 
> I sacked him and wouldn't ever use a guiri again!
> 
> Hope it helps


Hey thanks much. My partner is 66 and I'm 54. Neither of us is big on public displays of affection, but it's nice to know we could at least kiss without getting sneared at and not comee home to a house with DIE *** DIE spray painted on it and engulfed in flames😬. 
We've been together 19 years this coming June and have considered getting married while it is still legal here, but quite honestly, a piece of paper and a heterosexual custom isn't our bag either. Neither of subscribe to the concept of "gay pride" either. For us, our sexuality is nothing to be proud OR embarrassed of/by. It's simply which gender we like to be intimate with. The one reason we considered getting married is that if he passes before I do, I'd get HIS Social Security check as a surviving spouse which is much larger than mine will be when I get to that age😉 He's got a quite comfortable retirement account but wants to ensure it will last us AND continue to support me when he passes. He has taken great steps to ensure I will never have to suffer in my old age and he does have some health issues. I've read on here that health insurance is quite reasonable there too👍👍👍
The one thing I wish this forum had was the ability to take a chat private to be able to exchange email addys but I guess I can just deal with it.


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## xicoalc

You're certainly not going to face abuse from anyone for being gay. And as for formalities of marriage, in spain, from the whole application process to thr wedding, its "this couple" with papers not gender specific (man and woman with the "wo" crossed off). In spain we are geared up for everyone!

Nobody's gonna burn your house if you're seen kissing. 

The neighbours would chase them away with their brooms!

As others have said, sexuality really doesn't come in to it much. Its not the big issue as is in some countries!


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## SickOfAmerica

xicoalc said:


> In terms of "it is ok to be gay in spain?. The answer is yes. Im not saying that perhaps in some oldy villages off the beaten track there is not the old hombre del pueblo that may be surprised to see two men holding hands but im talking about the same stereotype who may be surprised to hear that there's colour tv or a global pandemic.
> 
> In nearly two decades of Spanish life i have never had a raised eyebrow or been treated any differently for being gay than any straight person. As others have said, spain is more about the people with sexualidad just being a part of you, like gair colour or anything else.
> 
> From the official dealings ive had through to business dealings, getting married, just living in general, i can honestly say that spanish people are some of the most welcoming people who really adopt a "live and let live" attitude.
> 
> When you introduce your same sex partner, there is never a pause, think amd "im ok with that, i met a gay once". Its usually just a "hello, pleased to meet you" as youd expect in "normality"
> 
> The last time i was in the uk we went to a hotel in london where we booked a double room. Checked in and as he was handing us the key he stopped and apologised and said he was giving wrong key as obviously a mistake was made. I asked the mistake and he said "this is a double bed, its ok, we have a twin available"
> 
> That wouldn't happen in spain! They may ask to confirm "you're booking is a double room for 3 nights, correct?" and thats it
> 
> And with regards to the old religious people, when we got married the photographer suggested a few locations for the part of the album after the honeymoon, where we got dressed up again... You know... A few half dressed in the sea, a few with buce backdrops etc. We went to a village where there is a beautiful church and the service was going on. We took a few photos and then it was kicking out time at the church.
> 
> We were there, 2 guys in wedding suits with a photographer. The old religious people all stood watching, clapping and wishing us luck. Then they started shouting "kiss kiss" in Spanish. So a true reflection on Spain in my opinion!
> 
> I work with Spanish of all ages, heading up a team of around 100. The youngest being 20 or 21 and the oldest nearly 70. They all know im gay, most have met my husband, many came to my wedding. Nobody cares. The younger ones make jokes but jokes because they are so open minded.... Nothing homophobic ever... But sometimes jokes (you can imagine) followed always by a hug or a kiss (straight spanish men kiss a lot!)
> 
> In brief, dont expect sexualidad to really come into the picture. People see a couple and thats all.
> 
> As for going out, night life etc... Do as you please. They let gays in straight bars in spain too! Order a table for 2 and ask for a romantic spot and youll get it. Your friends will be a mix of everything here.
> 
> If you like the gay scene then youll find everything from bars to the more..
> . Ermmm.... Lets say "the ones who obviously didn't pay the electricity bill as theres no lights". But even in those places youll surely find some women and straight men too... And why not... They probably go dor rhe music
> ... (all of this im told on the grapevine, id never ever go in those god darn awful places, honesty!!)
> 
> Oh and if thats not enough, hate crime is taken very seriously in spain. If a strange god loving homophobic says anything bad they'll be locked up!
> 
> Only bad experience i had was a British builder who said "ill work for you, but just so you know, back in the uk, people like you got beaten up... But i dont have a problem as long as you don't touch my arse"
> 
> I sacked him and wouldn't ever use a guiri again!
> 
> Hope it helps


Forgot to add, lived your line about sacking the brit with the attitude. I've never been OUT, so nobody would know unless I tell them, but have gotten that crap from brothers in law and just wonder if they would want to have sex with a 90 year old woman just because she's a woman...their same logic in that "it's ok just as long as you don't try anything with me"🙄


----------



## Lynn R

SickOfAmerica said:


> The one thing I wish this forum had was the ability to take a chat private to be able to exchange email addys but I guess I can just deal with it.


You can do that. It's certainly not immediately obvious, but if you click on your avatar (second from the right at the top of the screen) then click on Conversations in the list of options which appears, on the next screen there's an option to Start a New Conversation (ie send a private message to someone).


----------



## xicoalc

Lynn R said:


> You can do that. It's certainly not immediately obvious, but if you click on your avatar (second from the right at the top of the screen) then click on Conversations in the list of options which appears, on the next screen there's an option to Start a New Conversation (ie send a private message to someone).


Steady lynn, he'll be chatting us all up. You know what the gays are like!


----------



## SickOfAmerica

Lynn R said:


> You can do that. It's certainly not immediately obvious, but if you click on your avatar (second from the right at the top of the screen) then click on Conversations in the list of options which appears, on the next screen there's an option to Start a New Conversation (ie send a private message to someone).


Cool. THANKS 😁


----------



## SickOfAmerica

xicoalc said:


> Steady lynn, he'll be chatting us all up. You know what the gays are like!


LOL. I'm actually a borderline misanthrope...very reserved. The one thing I do like about e-communication is the anonymity, makes it easier for me to open up.


----------



## xicoalc

SickOfAmerica said:


> LOL. I'm actually a borderline misanthrope...very reserved. The one thing I do like about e-communication is the anonymity, makes it easier for me to open up.


Ohhhh. Open up to Lynne. She loves a bit of that jajajjaa


----------



## SickOfAmerica

Nn53470 said:


> I'm just genuinely curious as to what's going on over there as I live in Spain but am moving to the states this year! I'm not gay or a gay couple though have many friends who are here... not sure if I'd be of any help!


Wasn't trying to ignore your post...this is why forums aren't my favorite...gets difficult to keep track of. 

To answer your question, January 6 insurgency at our Capital. Things here have devolved into such extremism and hate. I've been disillusioned by the lie of the American Dream since I was 12. The fact that the Orange Faced Moron (OFM) was ever even allowed to be our president was the last straw for me personally. The fact that such a huge segment of our society liked him and what he stood for horrifies me to the core. Yes he is now out of office, but 75% of that party still fully embrace him and just nearly half of our country is in that party.

I made the comment about "while it's still legal here" referring to gay marriage, but it's only a matter of time before a hater brings a lawsuit all the way up to our ultra-conservative Supreme Court and it will no longer be legal.

The wealthy will continue to hoard an increasingly disproportionate piece of the pie and the common working man will get less and less while performing all of the physical labor and paying the highest amount of taxes to support both them AND the very poor.

This whole country is a dirty mess of a freight train...on fire and heading right toward a brick wall 🧱


----------



## Lynn R

xicoalc said:


> Ohhhh. Open up to Lynne. She loves a bit of that jajajjaa


Are we getting into the realms of slander now? You speak for yourself.


----------



## xicoalc

Lynn R said:


> Are we getting into the realms of slander now? You speak for yourself.


Our secrets remain between you and me sweetheart!

Just remember i had a camera!


----------



## Nn53470

Not sure if this is of any help but perhaps it may be for someone looking to move to Spain from USA,

I'm an American and moved to Spain 4 years ago. I contacted an immigration lawyer to figure out all the ways I could legally stay. Since I had a business in the states and wanted to start my clock towards citizenship, I was able to open up a branch in Spain and transfer myself to the Spanish branch. The cost of doing this was (all in euros) 1500 lawyer fees + 3000 capital to open the business (remained in bank account) + 3000 "admin" fee which was a Spanish person acting as admin of the business until I got residency and then took him off as admin and added myself. Two notary visits which cost 600 e each plus translation services and some other small government fees. Visa also required private health insurance which costs about 47-50 e a month. I arrived in January 2017 and had my residency card approved in April 2017 (card in my hand by June 2017). This visa was for two years. I then changed the admin over to my name and "opened" the business the following January 2018. As an admin of a business here, you pay roughly 450 e per month in SS and also have to pay an accountant about 80-120 e per month. I looped one of my American clients through the Spanish business and paid taxes here on that income. I took a small salary to prevent having to pay a fee at the bank and continued this through April 2019. I then had to pay the lawyers again, 900 e for my renovation. This visa was only for one year. I later found out there is a maximum of 3 years allowed for this type of visa. I met my partner in 2018 and thankfully, we had moved in together early 2019. This started the clock to be able to be considered "familiar communitario" something like this... seems like it's sort of like common law marriage (you can apply for this after living together for one year). We have no legal ties to each other but I can get a visa through him. He is not Spanish but is EU citizen. I closed my Spanish business in January 2020 and applied for a visa through my partner. Of course, with the mess of covid... many things got delayed and I just picked up my visa a week ago. No issue as old visas got legally extended. *Applying for initial and renewals could be done from within Spain.

The other option my lawyers originally gave me, as someone else has stated, is the non-lucrative visa. You have to apply for that while in the states and renew it every year (unsure if it can be renewed outside of the states). This time does NOT apply towards residency. As an American, your time counts towards residency under a work visa (or student visa but only half so one year only equals 6 months under student visa). Student visas are also another way to stay or invest 500k (though seems this is not the option original poster would consider).

IF you have ANY ties to Mexican-born parents, GET YOUR MEXICAN PASSPORT ASAP!!! With a Mexican passport, you can apply for nationality after two years of legal residency in Spain. This is much quicker than the 10 years required as an American. The Mexican passport trumps the American one and you apply with both passports!

I've used two different law firms in my time here and can definitely recommend if anyone is looking for a way!! There's ALWAYS a way!


----------



## SickOfAmerica

Thanks. A lot to consider.


----------



## incatalunya

Hi....We are a gay couple and live about 20 miles away from Barcelona in a large village. We used to live in the centre of Barcelona but moved for work purposes.
Regarding the cost of housing.....I bought a flat here for 240,000 euros.....3 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms...and it´s a duplex flat.....about 100 square metres in size.
I used to live in London. The equivalent cost of my flat here in Spain, in a decent area of London would be at LEAST 800,000 euros.....so if you are saying your budget is 325,000 dollars then you will be ok. You could buy a decent house for that....as long as it isn´t in the centre of Barcelona.......there ARE no houses there anyway.....all flats.
Being gay here is not an issue. My boyfriend knows everyone here and they know that I am his boyfriend.....we have NEVER had anybody being any different with us than they would be with a straight couple. Like you, we are not flamboyant or anything like that....just 2 normal guys who happen to be gay.
Hope that helps.


----------



## AlexNYC

SickOfAmerica said:


> Hello/Hola
> The only thread I found on this issue is from 2012. My partner and I are starting to think about fleeing America. I've been researching Costa Rica and Spain. I really don't like "forums". That said, I am interested in finding a gay couple (or more) to become e-penpals with to have meaningful private discussions to further explore Spain as a possible escape from what America has become. I literally cannot stand it here anymore and REALLY want out.
> 
> Please, if there is anyone out there that is interested in corresponding I would love to hear from you.
> 
> Thank you.


Hi there! I know exactly what you mean. I'm an American who fell in love with Valencia a few years ago and here I am! a few years later and married to a local! Depending on where in the US you are I think Costa Rica albeit being a beautiful place, it would n[t be a place I would like to live permanently. What I liked of Valencia is that is a relatively small city (One million population) with great arts and culture, a nice gay life and very affordable. Keep asking me questions if you would like. We would be happy to show you around if you come to visit when you can travel again.

Alex


----------



## SickOfAmerica

I just found this website talking about Bilbao in the North. Anyone been?








Bilbao, Spain: Things to Do, When to Visit [Lists & Images]


In this region lies Bilbao, a pleasant city with a rich history, which is well-worth a visit. And who knows? You may end up staying longer than you anticipated.




internationalliving.com


----------



## alan-in-mesicali

First, I am not gay... but I am a 76 year old male with gay relatives... and I live in Mexico! I suggest you consider Mexico rather than Spain for the following reasons:
1.Ease of return to the US or have family members visit.
2.Mexico is undoubtedly the least judgmental country I have ever been in... Yes they have over 40 terms that describe how "white" you are, but blacks and gays are welcomed into families. AND your neighbor won't care either...
3. The cost of living is less than 50% of that in the US with "normal" cost of housing a fraction of that in the US.
4 Your car can be serviced in Mexico [unless it is a really weird brand from Russia or China]... at a cost that will give you a brain freeze... LOW!
5. The "average" Mexican national neighbor is much more friendly than those I experienced in the US... everyone sort of looks out for their neighbors.
IF you go to Spain you really need to speak very good Spanish to get by... In Mexico many, many people speak some amount of English and ALWAYS want to practice their English [after I retired I taught English in Mexico and China] so I would start some lessons someplace to learn basic Spanish.... online is good with a one-to-one teacher [maybe one-to-two]
The BIGGEST PROBLEM I have had is the lack of English reading material....While I can speak enough Spanish to "get by", I can not read more than basic want ads.... So I buy boxes of books from E-Bay or have magazines sent to my my US PO box....which I visit once per month.
County/rural internet is usually VERY poor... Cities match major US cities in internet speeds and services and 30% of the cost... Cell phone costs for a month are less than a week in the US... PLUS you get totally FREE long distance unlimited to the US or across Mexico! Health care is good and cheap compared to the US. National Health Insurance would cost you around US$350 per year. You can easily work from home for a US company or online service from Mexcio... get a Strong VIP account and you can fool most sites that you are in Huston or LA or New York...
I do suggest you maintain a bank account in the US...IF you are earning US dollars or have them coming in.. keep them in a US bank... your debit card from a US bank works perfectly in Mexico. To get LEGAL residence with full benefits and right of citizenship, should you so choose, the cost is well under US $500 IF your income is US $1500 [approximate] monthly. IF you move to Mexcio on a "tourist visa" and over stay your visa you do not get kicked out UNLESS you have a major issue with the government... but YOUR CAR would need new plates [by mail from home?] IF you are LEGAL you can get a Mexican drivers license [which is good in the US].. pay a "tax" on your car to get Mexican plates... to use a US license you need US plates... US plates and a Mexican drivers license does not work.... and remember... When two people meet on the street is a conversation among friends... three people and it is a political meeting, 5 people and it is the start of a party!
GOOD LUCK TO YOU!


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## SickOfAmerica

Thanks, that's just a tiny further south than Los Lunas, NM...my current US-based retirement target of research. I still have a living Aunt in Albuquerque.

I do speak a lot of Spanglish 😆 and my late 1st partner's family was impressed with my pronunciation...now, thanks to Google translator, I can just look up an entire sentence and just read it aloud and get it right. I HAD to a couple of jobs ago, having 3 non-english speaking guys to give direction to.

Finding the right area would be like any other place, but the back and forth over the border would get old. I've only done that once when we did the circle around Lake Superior and coming back through Sault Ste Marie (Canada was beautiful but otherwise pricey).

So how expensive is regular gasoline? Are EVs showing up anywhere??? I'm digging the Fisker Ocean right now with it's open-ended lease with 30,000 miles per year ($379/month!!) I'd still be able to get one and just do tourist visa and extensions. Costa Rica makes you come back to the States a couple of weeks per year I think.

Being a type A, this is going to take years of research and planning 🤓😓


----------



## alan-in-mesicali

What I tell you is as close to 100% of the truth a ****** can give you.... Mexico beats the US hands down in most places... some places, due to the Cartel, are not safe for any one. I live approximately 50 miles southwest of Yuma, AZ outside of Cit Morelos - Cuervo's- in upper BC.. Morelos has about 10,000 population, maybe less...all agricultural... while Mexicali - about 50 miles and an hour drive - is a city of over a million with everything you need/want...I live way out in the country on a ranch... which is not a life style for all... you need to be handy, able to repair simple things... and like silence.... I can go weeks with out a visitor... PERHAPS you would like to send a "personal message" so I can provide my direct email and we continue this discussion...


----------



## kaipa

Whilst it is true that there a good deal of tolerance towards gays, trans etc in spain it is important to be aware that larger more urban locations are better than perhaps the sleepy, conservative villages. It also important to be aware of the presence of political groups such as VOX who are very much anti-homosexual and are gaining a degree of support in many parts of Spain. In fact such is their popularity that the bigger right-wing traditionalists PP is under pressure to look towards forming a political faction with them. If they were to do so they could topple the government and Spain could become country ruled by far right principles. Immigrants and homosexuals are very much the target of supporters of these parties so it is important to be aware of aspects of the political climate and not equate it with the progressive societies of northern europe


----------



## Alcalaina

kaipa said:


> Whilst it is true that there a good deal of tolerance towards gays, trans etc in spain it is important to be aware that larger more urban locations are better than perhaps the sleepy, conservative villages. It also important to be aware of the presence of political groups such as VOX who are very much anti-homosexual and are gaining a degree of support in many parts of Spain. In fact such is their popularity that the bigger right-wing traditionalists PP is under pressure to look towards forming a political faction with them. If they were to do so they could topple the government and Spain could become country ruled by far right principles. Immigrants and homosexuals are very much the target of supporters of these parties so it is important to be aware of aspects of the political climate and not equate it with the progressive societies of northern europe


Sleepy villages are not necessarily conservative or intolerant. Mine certainly isn’t. There are a handful of Vox supporters but the big issue is hunting, not homosexuality. Our resident gays and tranvestites are part of the community.


----------



## Isobella

kaipa said:


> Whilst it is true that there a good deal of tolerance towards gays, trans etc in spain it is important to be aware that larger more urban locations are better than perhaps the sleepy, conservative villages. It also important to be aware of the presence of political groups such as VOX who are very much anti-homosexual and are gaining a degree of support in many parts of Spain. In fact such is their popularity that the bigger right-wing traditionalists PP is under pressure to look towards forming a political faction with them. If they were to do so they could topple the government and Spain could become country ruled by far right principles. Immigrants and homosexuals are very much the target of supporters of these parties so it is important to be aware of aspects of the political climate and not equate it with the progressive societies of northern europe


Yes, but in some city areas too. The idea that came from one poster on here that Gays do not get beat up in Spain is false. 
It is not so long ago that 50,000 people marched in Madrid against changes to the homosexuality laws.

Anyway, hope the OP managed to find a pen pal.


----------



## xicoalc

Alcalaina said:


> Sleepy villages are not necessarily conservative or intolerant. Mine certainly isn’t. There are a handful of Vox supporters but the big issue is hunting, not homosexuality. Our resident gays and tranvestites are part of the community.


I tend to agree and as much as I am anti-vox, i cannot see how their influence would ever change the opinions of the overwheming majority of Spanish people when it comes to issues such as sexuality. I think there will always be SOME politicians who are anti-anything but that certainly does not reflect the general opinions or indeed built-in natural traits of the majority of people in Spain.


----------



## SickOfAmerica

Just as a comparison, there are several "rural" areas in my home state of Wisconsin that I would never feel safe in, yet the Door County peninsula is very different, it's an extremely friendly "artsy" tourist spot yet the high traffic areas are pretty well defined with lots of secluded areas between them. If I stay in Wisconsin, I am looking at that area very strongly.

I know that there are extremely conservative ppl all over the world, but here in the US, with armed extremist protestors, it just feels less safe despite all the "legendary" US freedoms and the right-wing has become more aggressive in tactic and rhetoric and is just nearly half the population now...all devoted to the worship of the Almighty Dollar and an intensely hypocritical "religious" fervor with the intent of suppressing anyone that isn't a white heterosexual Christian. As I've stated before, America is one of the biggest lies perpetrated on the human race.


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## xicoalc

Indeed. Its safe to say that in general spain is one of the most open, liberal and toleration nations in the world.


----------



## Scooby77

Try Torremolinos, although it's quiet right now due to the pandemic. Fuengirola is nice too. I'm an American living in Spain, it's shocking how much of a relief it was to move here. Honestly, the best thing about Spain is the people. The country is wonderful too. No one cares if you're gay, straight, etc. Everyone's just left to be. It's nice. Learnt a lot and matured a lot here. The US is a mental circus.... everyone's a character....worsened by social media -it's been personally nice to have some normalcy. I'd recommend it. I would suggest contacting the Spanish embassy in the US or an office in the US which helps with visas. Good luck.


----------



## JDub2020

Nn53470 said:


> I'm just genuinely curious as to what's going on over there as I live in Spain but am moving to the states this year! I'm not gay or a gay couple though have many friends who are here... not sure if I'd be of any help!


----------



## JDub2020

It really depends on where you'll live in the US. Even within the most progressive states like NY or California, there are pockets of deeply conservative and/or religious fundamentalism. I'd be happy to strike up a chat if helpful!


----------



## xicoalc

Just saw this in the web. It's a setup to judge reaction of people but pretty much sums up the tolerance of spanish people




https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2831518040270312&id=110177082404435


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## CltFlyboy

Thanks for sharing that... In all candor, I sat here silently weeping towards the end. This is why I want to live in Spain - because of the people, the compassion, the _love_ that I feel there.


----------



## xicoalc

CltFlyboy said:


> Thanks for sharing that... In all candor, I sat here silently weeping towards the end. This is why I want to live in Spain - because of the people, the compassion, the _love_ that I feel there.


Got to admit, it filled me up towards the end. But I promise, disregard all that people say about the far right politicians, they exist everywhere. That video reflects, in my opinion, the PEOPLE of Spain (with very few exceptions) which, after all are what counts.


----------



## CltFlyboy

xicoalc said:


> Got to admit, it filled me up towards the end. But I promise, disregard all that people say about the far right politicians, they exist everywhere. That video reflects, in my opinion, the PEOPLE of Spain (with very few exceptions) which, after all are what counts.


Funny you mention that, I was just talking to my better half about the current political situation there, and we both had to step back, take a breath, and realize that we are already in one of the most dysfunctional countries in the world already. Honestly, moving to Spain will be an upgrade!


----------



## xicoalc

CltFlyboy said:


> Funny you mention that, I was just talking to my better half about the current political situation there, and we both had to step back, take a breath, and realize that we are already in one of the most dysfunctional countries in the world already. Honestly, moving to Spain will be an upgrade!


I have friends in the USA and so i get a feeling of the situation, much like the UK. 

Even when I visit the UK, sometimes people take 2nd look when they realise im gay. Innocent. Nothing bad but shows the clear difference in general acceptance between the UK or USA and Spain 🇪🇸


----------



## CltFlyboy

xicoalc said:


> I have friends in the USA and so i get a feeling of the situation, much like the UK.
> 
> Even when I visit the UK, sometimes people take 2nd look when they realise im gay. Innocent. Nothing bad but shows the clear difference in general acceptance between the UK or USA and Spain 🇪🇸


I do so wish that we had that same attitude here. I have plenty of LGBTQ friends, and my mom owned a hair salon - I grew up with several gay guys being my most important role models, and I am thankful of that and a richer person because of it.

The more I read/listen/see/experience Spain the more I understand just how much I want to get over there. Thanks again, you're the best.


----------



## JDub2020

CltFlyboy said:


> I do so wish that we had that same attitude here. I have plenty of LGBTQ friends, and my mom owned a hair salon - I grew up with several gay guys being my most important role models, and I am thankful of that and a richer person because of it.
> 
> The more I read/listen/see/experience Spain the more I understand just how much I want to get over there. Thanks again, you're the best.


It's really interesting too, considering much of continental Europe has a long history of Catholic church influence. Seems like Europe would actually be much less accepting. Glad that it isn't!


----------



## Isobella

News from Brussels









EU Declares Itself an #LGBTIQFreedomZone


Socialists in the European Parliament are cheering themselves for the branding exercise of declaring the EU an 'LGBTIQ Freedom Zone', whatever that means.




order-order.com


----------



## Pesky Wesky

SickOfAmerica said:


> I just found this website talking about Bilbao in the North. Anyone been?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bilbao, Spain: Things to Do, When to Visit [Lists & Images]
> 
> 
> In this region lies Bilbao, a pleasant city with a rich history, which is well-worth a visit. And who knows? You may end up staying longer than you anticipated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> internationalliving.com


Yes, many times....


----------



## SickOfAmerica

Upon further research, it turns out Bilbao is similar to Seattle, WA here. I don't think 6 hours of sunlight on average even in the summer would be for me.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

CltFlyboy said:


> Thanks for sharing that... In all candor, I sat here silently weeping towards the end. This is why I want to live in Spain - because of the people, the compassion, the _love_ that I feel there.


Same.
I have actually seen it before but had forgotten. I agree with much that has been said here, but feel it's only fair to say that there are of course people who are very much against gays or whatever the PC form of address is nowadays. With the rise of the political group Vox this is getting stirred up as I fear it is to a greater or lesser extent in many parts of Europe. It may be easier to live your life here rather than the US atm moment though


----------



## JDub2020

SickOfAmerica said:


> Upon further research, it turns out Bilbao is similar to Seattle, WA here. I don't think 6 hours of sunlight on average even in the summer would be for me.


Hey, as a current Seattleite, I'm (slightly) offended! But I can't argue with you.


----------



## mrypg9

I’ve only just come upon this thread but as an older gay woman who came to Spain in 2008 with my partner I thought I’d add my tuppence worth to the discussion.

I’ve lived in several European countries during my many years of life, for forty years with my partner who sadly died over two years ago. In all this time and these different places I can honestly say that I have never experienced hostility or abuse of any kind. I was active both professionally and politically in public life and we lived openly as a couple.

My experience is that most people are interested in you as a complete person without focusing on your sexual orientation, which although fundamental to who you are is really a small part of how others see you and how you are perceived socially. Of course some climates are more friendly and positive than others. Being openly gay in Poland is different from being gay in the Czech Republic, both countries I’ve lived in. But my experience has been that once you are accepted for yourself bigotry usually melts away. I’ve pissed off more people with my political views than for being gay.

Every country has its racists, homophobes and other bigots and Spain is no exception. I’ve come across devout Catholics who believe homosexuality to be deeply sinful but who, being decent people, tolerate and accept it as a fact of normal life. I don’t mind being thought sinful. Being sacked from my job or physically or verbally abused is another matter and Spain like other civilised countries has laws prohibiting that.

On Tuesday I’m going to a local school to talk about the history of the fight to achieve LGBT equality. Some years ago I did a similar lesson in our village Instituto. After I showed a video and talked for a bit I asked for questions. One boy put up his hand and said ‘I see you and your partner walking an enormous dog. What breed is it?’.
Says it all, IMO.


----------



## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> I’ve only just come upon this thread but as an older gay woman who came to Spain in 2008 with my partner I thought I’d add my tuppence worth to the discussion.
> 
> I’ve lived in several European countries during my many years of life, for forty years with my partner who sadly died over two years ago. In all this time and these different places I can honestly say that I have never experienced hostility or abuse of any kind. I was active both professionally and politically in public life and we lived openly as a couple.
> 
> My experience is that most people are interested in you as a complete person without focusing on your sexual orientation, which although fundamental to who you are is really a small part of how others see you and how you are perceived socially. Of course some climates are more friendly and positive than others. Being openly gay in Poland is different from being gay in the Czech Republic, both countries I’ve lived in. But my experience has been that once you are accepted for yourself bigotry usually melts away. I’ve pissed off more people with my political views than for being gay.
> 
> Every country has its racists, homophobes and other bigots and Spain is no exception. I’ve come across devout Catholics who believe homosexuality to be deeply sinful but who, being decent people, tolerate and accept it as a fact of normal life. I don’t mind being thought sinful. Being sacked from my job or physically or verbally abused is another matter and Spain like other civilised countries has laws prohibiting that.
> 
> On Tuesday I’m going to a local school to talk about the history of the fight to achieve LGBT equality. Some years ago I did a similar lesson in our village Instituto. After I showed a video and talked for a bit I asked for questions. One boy put up his hand and said ‘I see you and your partner walking an enormous dog. What breed is it?’.
> Says it all, IMO.


That last paragraph is brilliant!


----------



## xicoalc

mrypg9 said:


> I’ve only just come upon this thread but as an older gay woman who came to Spain in 2008 with my partner I thought I’d add my tuppence worth to the discussion.
> 
> I’ve lived in several European countries during my many years of life, for forty years with my partner who sadly died over two years ago. In all this time and these different places I can honestly say that I have never experienced hostility or abuse of any kind. I was active both professionally and politically in public life and we lived openly as a couple.
> 
> My experience is that most people are interested in you as a complete person without focusing on your sexual orientation, which although fundamental to who you are is really a small part of how others see you and how you are perceived socially. Of course some climates are more friendly and positive than others. Being openly gay in Poland is different from being gay in the Czech Republic, both countries I’ve lived in. But my experience has been that once you are accepted for yourself bigotry usually melts away. I’ve pissed off more people with my political views than for being gay.
> 
> Every country has its racists, homophobes and other bigots and Spain is no exception. I’ve come across devout Catholics who believe homosexuality to be deeply sinful but who, being decent people, tolerate and accept it as a fact of normal life. I don’t mind being thought sinful. Being sacked from my job or physically or verbally abused is another matter and Spain like other civilised countries has laws prohibiting that.
> 
> On Tuesday I’m going to a local school to talk about the history of the fight to achieve LGBT equality. Some years ago I did a similar lesson in our village Instituto. After I showed a video and talked for a bit I asked for questions. One boy put up his hand and said ‘I see you and your partner walking an enormous dog. What breed is it?’.
> Says it all, IMO.


Lovely words


----------



## MataMata

Haven't read all 4 pages so don't know if this has already been posted but here are the visa requirements as published by the Spanish Embassy in Los Angeles so a bit more local to you.

Visas

Should be much the same as anywhere though.


----------



## CltFlyboy

mrypg9 said:


> I’ve only just come upon this thread but as an older gay woman who came to Spain in 2008 with my partner I thought I’d add my tuppence worth to the discussion.
> 
> I’ve lived in several European countries during my many years of life, for forty years with my partner who sadly died over two years ago. In all this time and these different places I can honestly say that I have never experienced hostility or abuse of any kind. I was active both professionally and politically in public life and we lived openly as a couple.
> 
> My experience is that most people are interested in you as a complete person without focusing on your sexual orientation, which although fundamental to who you are is really a small part of how others see you and how you are perceived socially. Of course some climates are more friendly and positive than others. Being openly gay in Poland is different from being gay in the Czech Republic, both countries I’ve lived in. But my experience has been that once you are accepted for yourself bigotry usually melts away. I’ve pissed off more people with my political views than for being gay.
> 
> Every country has its racists, homophobes and other bigots and Spain is no exception. I’ve come across devout Catholics who believe homosexuality to be deeply sinful but who, being decent people, tolerate and accept it as a fact of normal life. I don’t mind being thought sinful. Being sacked from my job or physically or verbally abused is another matter and Spain like other civilised countries has laws prohibiting that.
> 
> On Tuesday I’m going to a local school to talk about the history of the fight to achieve LGBT equality. Some years ago I did a similar lesson in our village Instituto. After I showed a video and talked for a bit I asked for questions. One boy put up his hand and said ‘I see you and your partner walking an enormous dog. What breed is it?’.
> Says it all, IMO.


That was an awesome story and read, thank you for sharing with us! I can't wait to eventually move there so we can be with other people who value others as worthy, regardless what they do behind the doors. You just made my weekend, I appreciate you.


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## mrypg9

CltFlyboy said:


> That was an awesome story and read, thank you for sharing with us! I can't wait to eventually move there so we can be with other people who value others as worthy, regardless what they do behind the doors. You just made my weekend, I appreciate you.


How kind..❤ Should you find yourselves down my way, pm me.

Mary🌹


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## mrypg9

xicoalc said:


> Lovely words


Thankyou🌹


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## CltFlyboy

mrypg9 said:


> How kind..❤ Should you find yourselves down my way, pm me.
> 
> Mary🌹


Mary - we'd love to and will do so next time we're in Spain and definitely after we move there. Thanks again for being a shining light! 💖💖


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## xicoalc

CltFlyboy said:


> Mary - we'd love to and will do so next time we're in Spain and definitely after we move there. Thanks again for being a shining light! 💖💖


Oh my god. Love is in the air ❤💕💞


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## xicoalc

mrypg9 said:


> Thankyou🌹


De nada mi amor 🌷💐❤🌺 and im so sorry to hear about your partner. Ive been off the forum for a while... Obviously too long (work, life, husband, animals) but was very sad news

Sending hugs 😍


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## CltFlyboy

xicoalc said:


> Oh my god. Love is in the air ❤💕💞


¡Por supuesto, por qué no! 💘💗


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## tardigrade

This is becoming more prevalent
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57300640


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## tardigrade

mrypg9 said:


> In all this time and these different places I can honestly say that I have never experienced hostility or abuse of any kind. I was active both professionally and politically in public life and we lived openly as a couple.
> 
> Being sacked from my job or physically or verbally abused is another matter and Spain like other civilised countries has laws prohibiting that.


I think there is a big difference in whether the couple is 2 females or 2 males. 2 females are less likely to be abused or experience hostility for being gay than are 2 males. The most watched porn category contains only 2 women. 
I am speaking from a male perspective so abuse or hostility from straight women towards gay women I cannot comment on.

I believe in the USA you could still be fired from a job for being gay.. I know it is not every state, but there are some out there in which this is still practiced and the courts, legislators go back and forth on what is discrimination and "sex".

As long as organized religion says it is bad, then it will always be a struggle.


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## Melosine

When the fiesta in Aguilas, Murcia, takes place half of the parade are guys in dresses. 
My only problem is they have better ankles and legs than most women !
Seriously have found it is how one treats people is the most important issue.


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## Pesky Wesky

tardigrade said:


> I think there is a big difference in whether the couple is 2 females or 2 males. 2 females are less likely to be abused or experience hostility for being gay than are 2 males. The most watched porn category contains only 2 women.
> I am speaking from a male perspective so abuse or hostility from straight women towards gay women I cannot comment on.
> 
> I believe in the USA you could still be fired from a job for being gay.. I know it is not every state, but there are some out there in which this is still practiced and the courts, legislators go back and forth on what is discrimination and "sex".
> 
> As long as organized religion says it is bad, then it will always be a struggle.


Hate the way that it is still highly comical for men to dress up as busty women with lavish make up ... Have never seen the comedy value in it


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## timwip

tardigrade said:


> I think there is a big difference in whether the couple is 2 females or 2 males. 2 females are less likely to be abused or experience hostility for being gay than are 2 males. The most watched porn category contains only 2 women.
> I am speaking from a male perspective so abuse or hostility from straight women towards gay women I cannot comment on.
> 
> I believe in the USA you could still be fired from a job for being gay.. I know it is not every state, but there are some out there in which this is still practiced and the courts, legislators go back and forth on what is discrimination and "sex".
> 
> As long as organized religion says it is bad, then it will always be a struggle.


There has been a Supreme Court decision in the United States that LGBT people can not be fired.

Supreme Court LGBT ruling: Workers can't be fired for being gay or transgender (cnbc.com)


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## tomwins

I can’t begin to tell you how powerful it has been to read through these pages. Thank you to the OP and each of you who have chimed in with perspective and stories. I am a gay man planning to move to Spain VERY soon. Here is some of my story. I wont get into growing up as a gay boy in Alabama and what it took to escape my fundamentalist upbringing. I’ll start with my retiring from a job in San Diego and moving to Mexico. That was in 2015. I’ve loved Mexico and can’t disagree with the comments from alan-in-mesicali since there are excellent reasons to move to Mexico. I have wonderful friends here and they will remain so. The community I am in is very near a very poor community and so I’d say a MAJOR difference between Spain and Mexico is the level of poverty and corruption. Despite what AMLO says, the poor will stay poor because the structures in place are too strong at the moment. Also AMLO is an incompetent who is more interested in getting power and keeping power than bringing about solutions that really solve any actual problems. His continual denial of the dangers of COVID-19 are just the start of his revealing his true nature. He then sent SinoVac to small isolated communities where most of the population got vaccinated even though the infection rate was miniscule compared to that of large towns and cities. He said he was giving priority to the poor but the political games are so apparent it did not win him any points.
I have not suffered discrimination here as a gay man but rather have found my experience to be similar to what others have described about Spain. The live and let live culture; seeing the truth and honor in a person rather than a sexual orientation. There is a trans woman who lives and works for the local government and on the weekend has gigs where she sings Mexican ballads that brings the house down. Everyone is up dancing and singing with her. She is loved and adored. You mention her name and people gush about her performances. At first it shocked me but I honestly think they have an understanding of gender range and fluidity that the US, UK, and EU are just now beginning to face.

So why am I planning to move from Mexico to Spain???

I live in the mountains and have never lived at a high altitude. Over the years I’ve never adjusted to the lower levels of oxygen. I have one nostril that doesn’t function well so I never get a full breath of air. Two years ago, I got an oximeter and found that I’m constantly below the recommended level of oxygen in my blood. I just spent a week at the beach and checked my levels there and it was back in the normal range. After looking at several places with lower altitude in Mexico I didn’t find a place I’d enjoy due to the heat and humidity much of the year.
The dysfunction and growing discontent from Mexicans toward people from the US. There was a palpable difference in the Mexicans I live around when the Orange Baby was elected in the US. And now more people who think like him are moving here due to Biden. Or maybe they can't afford the US anymore, who knows why the hate Mexicans but move to Mexico???? A Mexican friend was visiting a nearby town recently and a group of five immigrants from the US were talking loudly at a lunch table complaining about the lack of houses for sale. Then one said, we’ll more Mexicans are moving out due to cost of living maybe soon they’ll all be gone and we can finally control what goes on here. When he told me this I was appalled and didn’t know what to say beyond I am so sorry. I’m glad I don’t live in that community but please know that a lot of right-wing nuts from the US are living in Mexico and are giving truth to the image of the UGLY AMERICAN. I’ve done my part in building relationships and working with local charities and support drives so much so that my friends come to me to find healing after experiencing such gross behavior.
I want to travel in Europe while I am fit enough to do so. Train travel is so convenient and easy. I love the different cultures and rich histories of the continent. After almost a decade and a half of going there, I feel I’ve only begun to discover the opportunities.
The infrastructure and progressive approach in the EU has always been attractive to me. To get my vaccination I had to fly back to the US since the only thing available in Mexico is the SinoVac. The EU is at least talking about dealing with the next crisis, be it economic, climatic, or communal. I’d rather be there as the seas rise and the temperatures rip 20% above norm then 20% below. They actually seem to be learning from their responses to some past economic and health crisis and preparing to do better in the future. The US has so destroyed the government services or turned them into political action groups that I fear responses to future problems will be little more than talking points and tossing money at problems which will then be used as an excuse to raise taxes on the middle and lower classes.
The entrenched divide between the haves and have not and complacent people who shrug when it is discussed. I knew this was a problem when I came to Mexico and didn’t expect to see the US turn in that direction so rapidly (I left when Obama was president). So if you want to see where the US is headed move to Mexico. Already I see my siblings and friends in the US shrug when the growing wealth divide and politicization of EVERYTHING is discussed. I am a person who likes to be part of a solution. If I see a problem, I want to join in solving it. That has been hard in Mexico and it is becoming the same in the US.
With all these points I need to express clearly something you may already know. It is a very valuable perspective that someone shared with me when I was considering moving to Mexico. NEVER run from somewhere or you’ll never be satisfied/happy. Always move TO somewhere.

So if I must urge you to know exactly the reason(s) you are moving TO a specific place or wait until it is clear. I wish I had not bought my house as it is now something I have to deal with that makes the move more complicated. But I have no regrets about my time in Mexico. I am a better person for having been here and I’m not sure I would do things different even if I knew in six years I’d be looking at moving to Spain. Maybe the best lesson has been how to live outside the US (my comfort zone) and dealing with an easy residency process. I don't fear the EU processes like I would if I hadn't already had to get documents with an apostle. Tip: get and bring everything you could think they'd ask for but only give them what they ask for. Then as they ask for more, pull it out and pass it over. Still I had to write an extra letter (in Spanish) to get my residency visa for Mexico. But it was all just games and paperwork. As a former public servant I know the game well.

To end telling of my immediate situation, I am heading to Spain on 27 August and then go to France to exhaust a 90 day visa before jumping on the EuroStar to London on 25 November. I have narrowed my area of interest to Valencia and south to Benidorm. I’ll likely not decide on an area beyond where to rent for my first year while I settle in and explore more. After London I’ll return to the US where I will begin working on getting my non-lucrative visa paperwork together and making plans for the actual move in 2022.

I’m not wanting to piggy-back on this tread so I’ll create my own thread soon. And it will say that I’d love to hear from anyone from the Valencia area and anyone who can tell me about your tax situation if you are from the US. That is, honestly, my main question right now. I have a government pension, Social Security, and a ROTH and Traditional IRA. I want to talk to a tax specialist on my visit to Spain who can help me answer how these are impacted by residency in Spain. Recommendations appreciated.

*Positive PM welcomed! I seek you experience and perspective.*

I wish you well in your search and journey. I too looked at Costa Rica when considering Mexico. Please note that it is a small country with few resources and weak infrastructure. I don't regret selecting Mexico as an alternative even as I prepare to leave.


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## tardigrade

It is getting worse here and around Spain with a death by beating making the news recently.

Homophobic attacks in Valencia increase after fatal beating of Samuel


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## kaipa

tardigrade said:


> It is getting worse here and around Spain with a death by beating making the news recently.
> 
> Homophobic attacks in Valencia increase after fatal beating of Samuel


 I thought they hadn't established whether the resulting death was a homophobic attack or as a result of an altercation.


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## Pesky Wesky

kaipa said:


> I thought they hadn't established whether the resulting death was a homophobic attack or as a result of an altercation.


They haven't. The suspects have been accused of a string of crimes but homophobic attack has not been included. For the moment.


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## Isobella

kaipa said:


> I thought they hadn't established whether the resulting death was a homophobic attack or as a result of an altercation.


Maybe but it has certainly opened the debate. Lots of others who have been attacked in various parts of Spain have come forward. Some speak out in El Pais today.


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## tardigrade

All the attacks; verbal and physical I have read about they use english words and are always men and against men.
I have never heard about a women or man belittling a lesbian couple. 
Sort of like they can swear in english on the tv in primetime but not in Spanish or french - I watch some french tv to keep up.


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## xicoalc

I think the whole thing needs to be kept in context. Attacks of course are very sad and inexcusable but attacks happen in every country every day against someone.
.. Men, women, gays, trans, muslim, disabilities, , whatever it may be. 

Spain on the whole is an open and accepting country and gay hate crime is minimal compared to many countries.

I don't make a big thing about my sexuality... I am me, sexuality is part of me but not all of me. If i choose to hold hands or show affection to my husband in the street or anywhere else then I will and I can honestly say, i never have feelings of discomfort in spain. If one bigot in a million chooses to take offence then thats their problem but leta keep things in concept. Spain is generally one of the most tolerant and accepting countries.. Not just to gays but to everyone


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## tardigrade

Thats the problem though, it is just not one in a million but normally a gang of these said bigots and it will get worse before it gets better.

To a lot of these "bigots" it is just not normal to see men holding hands or show affection to another man in the streets. By doing so you have to know that you are putting yourself at risk.


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> They haven't. The suspects have been accused of a string of crimes but homophobic attack has not been included. For the moment.


The victim, Samuel, was apparently talking on his mobile to a friend when a hostile group of young men approached him. The friend was able to hear abuse including the term’*******’.

Which sounds to me like a homophobic incident.


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## mrypg9

tardigrade said:


> All the attacks; verbal and physical I have read about they use english words and are always men and against men.
> I have never heard about a women or man belittling a lesbian couple.
> Sort of like they can swear in english on the tv in primetime but not in Spanish or french - I watch some french tv to keep up.


Last year a lesbian couple were abused and attacked on a London bus.

When I as involved with a local LGBT group I had a couple of calls from lesbian women who had been verbally and physically abused.
But yes, most incidents involved men.


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## tardigrade

El teléfono 112 CV ha atendido casi 200 avisos por homofobia y transfobia desde 2018


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## Pesky Wesky

mrypg9 said:


> The victim, Samuel, was apparently talking on his mobile to a friend when a hostile group of young men approached him. The friend was able to hear abuse including the term’*****’.
> 
> Which sounds to me like a homophobic incident.


What you and I think doesn't come into it. At the moment it's not being treated as homophobic by the judge...
Whatever the reason it's absolutely horrifying that people think they can kill a person because they are not like them in some way.


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## mrypg9

Pesky Wesky said:


> What you and I think doesn't come into it. At the moment it's not being treated as homophobic by the judge...
> Whatever the reason it's absolutely horrifying that people think they can kill a person because they are not like them in some way.


Reminiscences of the case of the five men who raped an inebriated woman in Pamplona, I think it was. The initial accusation was something like aggravated sexual assault not rape as the woman had made no attempt to fight off her attackers who also filmed the assault.

Am I right in thinking that the Government has clarified what constitutes a sexual assault as rape?


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## Alcalaina

mrypg9 said:


> Reminiscences of the case of the five men who raped an inebriated woman in Pamplona, I think it was. The initial accusation was something like aggravated sexual assault not rape as the woman had made no attempt to fight off her attackers who also filmed the assault.
> 
> Am I right in thinking that the Government has clarified what constitutes a sexual assault as rape?


Yes, the new law has just been approved - now "only yes means yes", plus a whole range of other good stuff .

Ley Orgánica de Garantía de la Libertad Sexual 

In English: La Moncloa. 06/07/2021. The Government of Spain passes the Organic Law on the Comprehensive Guarantee of Sexual Freedom [Government/Council of Ministers]


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## kaipa

The recent case against Samuel has found the accused has had previous charges for assault but not for homophobic reasons. The media was perhaps a bit quick to judge the nature of this crime in the same way that the black activist who was shot was thought to have been racist attack. Calling a person a ******* is a general term of abuse in Spain and therefore hard to pin it down to a homophobic insult. Surely the thing that matters is the violence of the crime committed?


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## Quiterio

Just came across your post which is at least 4 months old, so you may have changed your minds by now, but I thought I would just tell you about our experience. We're 2 guys from Scotland, I'm now in my 70s, and we've had a house in Spain since 2005 - so we started out in the same age bracket as you two. Sounds like, you're very like ourselves from the point of view of not liking to create a stir around the fact that you're gay. We had a civil partnership 10 years ago, and invited only 2 close women friends to act as witnesses, whereas my nephew did the whole bit: dressed themed wedding with drag-queen entertainment, and his dad giving a speech as father of the "bride". 
Like your other correspondent, Xicoalc, we have felt welcome here from day one. Having said that, we are in a very Spanish part of Spain, near the City of Cadiz, and don't know whether things would be quite the same, say, on the Costa del Sol, or around Benidorm. But our local bar treats us as if we are full members of the community, with hugs and kisses (pre-Covid!) when we returned after long sojourns in the UK. The owner even invited us to his wedding. One St Valentine's day, when he was circulating in the bar presenting the ladies with red roses, with no hesitation he gave us each one!
Sometimes the "normality" takes my breath away. When we obtained full residency a couple of years ago and set about taking an accountant on board for our taxes, he simply said to us, with no preamble, that he would need a copy of our marriage certificate. Afterwards we joked that we could have said, "What do you mean? Surely you don't think we're ...?"
Of course, occasionally we come across another ex-pat who is also gay - but there's a normality even there. Nobody says anything like, "how nice to find other gay people .." We just get on with it. People are people. Needless to say we don't go looking for gay bars, although there are some in the city, we believe. Cadiz goes mad with the Carnival every year in February (except, unfortunately for the last 2 years), and the parades in the street, with everyone dressing up, is a bit like mardi-gras. We get the feeling that they almost want you to be different in some way - to celebrate the vast array of variations in human life with them.
So, we would say, wholeheartedly, go for it.


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## goodstafford

SickOfAmerica said:


> I just found this website talking about Bilbao in the North. Anyone been?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bilbao, Spain: Things to Do, When to Visit [Lists & Images]
> 
> 
> In this region lies Bilbao, a pleasant city with a rich history, which is well-worth a visit. And who knows? You may end up staying longer than you anticipated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> internationalliving.com


I realize this is an old question, but since others may be interested and OP may still be looking...

I have! I was attracted to the idea of Bilbao because I don't like warm, sunny weather and love rain. I went for three weeks in 2021 and it is incredibly beautiful, green, clean, and with outstanding public transit. It's a great size city, feels large and dense like a major metro area but never gets overwhelming and oppressive like Madrid or London would. People were very friendly, there were a lot of cultural activities even in the time of COVID, and there's easy access to tons of natural beauty along the coast, etc. Apparently, it's about the most expensive city in Spain but that didn't put it as much different from where I live now (Los Angeles).


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## Rae.Wayfarer

SickOfAmerica said:


> I just found this website talking about Bilbao in the North. Anyone been?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bilbao, Spain: Things to Do, When to Visit [Lists & Images]
> 
> 
> In this region lies Bilbao, a pleasant city with a rich history, which is well-worth a visit. And who knows? You may end up staying longer than you anticipated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> internationalliving.com


I visited Bilbao 13 years ago and LOVED it. Definitely a bit chillier than other areas of Spain but a very cool vibe there. Also, I'm from NM as well, so hello! I saw your username and I thought "damn why isn't that my username?!".... 
My husband and I have lived outside of the US for 10 years now (all in Asia), and now we are moving to Barcelona. I can't _wait_! I don't think I will ever move back to the US unless we have some kind of family emergency with our parents.
Good luck with your search!


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## Rae.Wayfarer

xicoalc said:


> Just saw this in the web. It's a setup to judge reaction of people but pretty much sums up the tolerance of spanish people
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2831518040270312&id=110177082404435


Wow, what a moving video. Thank you for sharing.


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