# House prices likely to fall further as bank clear their books



## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Spain's second biggest bank BBVA is aiming to clear its backlog of repossessed properties by 2014 and will adjust prices on a month-by-month basis in order to speed up the process.

Presumably other banks will follow suit - bargains for buyers, but bad news for private sellers.

BBVA aiming to speed up sale of real estate assets | In English | EL PAÍS


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I think that was inevitable. I read somewhere that prices will fall to pre-2004 levels.

My dil received an offer for a property she has owned here for over twelve years, can't remember when she bought it, could have been before 2000.. If she accepts, she will, after all taxes paid, make less than 10% on the purchase price and a lot of tarting up has been done. So if the offer is accepted she won't be out of pocket but won't have much of a profit.

I think she'll decline.


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## chica escocesa (Jul 23, 2012)

I'm sure it's no consolation but it's the same here in the uk. Bought our house in 2004 for 165k, one round the corner more or less the same on for 175 and has been on market for 6 months or more.


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## neddie (Jun 11, 2012)

.....can anyone suggest any web sites that banks may have that show what properties they have for sale. I tried the BBVA site last night without any joy which got me wondering if the banks hand things over to real estate agents to do the selling for them. I am interested mainly in Andalucia.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

If you check things like 

fotocasa.es - venta pisos, alquiler pisos, pisos madrid, pisos barcelona, pisos valencia

The ads will often show if it's a bank sale. 

Other then that Altamira I think handles most of Santandar sales. But even these are shown on fotocasa.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

neddie said:


> .....can anyone suggest any web sites that banks may have that show what properties they have for sale. I tried the BBVA site last night without any joy which got me wondering if the banks hand things over to real estate agents to do the selling for them. I am interested mainly in Andalucia.


Venta de pisos, casas, apartamentos y locales comerciales - Servihabitat

Caixabank house sales arm. They do catalogues in the branches, rental also.


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## maxd (Mar 22, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I think that was inevitable. I read somewhere that prices will fall to pre-2004 levels.
> 
> My dil received an offer for a property she has owned here for over twelve years, can't remember when she bought it, could have been before 2000.. If she accepts, she will, after all taxes paid, make less than 10% on the purchase price and a lot of tarting up has been done. So if the offer is accepted she won't be out of pocket but won't have much of a profit.
> 
> I think she'll decline.


12 years inflation too, she will be way down if you are talking the same number she bought it for. probably 30% as inflation has avaerage about 3% per annum.

Historic inflation Spain ? historic CPI inflation Spain


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

maxd said:


> 12 years inflation too, she will be way down if you are talking the same number she bought it for. probably 30% as inflation has avaerage about 3% per annum.
> 
> Historic inflation Spain ? historic CPI inflation Spain



My son and dil are over here again next week...I don't think she'll take the offer. 
It's not as if she needs to sell.
If you take inflation into account then yes she has lost out but you have to take into account the very substantial post-tax rental income she has accumulated over the years as she rents it out to colleagues and friends plus the time family members have spent there.
We lived there for a month whilst looking for a suitable property but contributed.

She doesn't look to her properties as 'important' income-generators which is fortunate as many owners who do are obliged to offer huge discounts in the current slack rental market which, if it is their main business, is bound to hit them badly.

We have a friend who has a large beachfront villa... in summer she rents her house to wealthy Russians for huge weekly sums...but she then moves in with her aged mother for up to three months! She has to store most of her possessions and hope that the renters have consideration for her property which is her home. Apart from alimony and some investment income, she relies on summer renting to live decently.
Last year even the wealthy Russian market became competitive and she was obliged to reduce her weekly rental prices. I think the same situation applies this year.

My dil's house is often empty 90% of the time although oddly and against the trend she has rented it for most of the summer for the past couple of years. She also has other smaller property which is managed by a local rental agency.

We are so happy that we do not have to worry about property any longer! We had properties in the UK and Canada which we rented and I found the whole business to be a pita.

And so glad we didn't buy in Prague although everyone haranged us about the rent we were paying to a landlord instead of 'investing' in a property of our own.
We could have been stuck with an unsaleable house


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## maxd (Mar 22, 2009)

She should be able to rent it 7 months a year. If she interested I can show you how as you have some time on your hands.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

maxd said:


> She should be able to rent it 7 months a year. If she interested I can show you how as you have some time on your hands.


That's nice of you, max, thankyou

But she doesn't want or need to rent it more than she does and she only rents to colleagues. She isn't interested in income from it as she and son are both well-paid professionals working in the City. The apartment was an inheritance.

As for time on my hands...I have and I haven't.. ADANA takes up a lot of my time. Tomorrow I'm doing an airport run with a dog that's going to Holland for adoption. At l;east once a week I go up to the kennels. Then there's the work you'd normally associate with a small business, plus all the social engagements.

But I do like to set aside at least two hours a day for lazing around our pool reading or chatting and occasionally swimming.
And Our Little Azor has to be walked twice a day, before sunrise and after sunset, at least an hour and a half each time.

I had more free time in Cerny Vul..


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## bob_bob (Jan 5, 2011)

Owning property is great, so long as you own it and have no mortgage, this = no pressure and its a wonderful feeling


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

bob_bob said:


> Owning property is great, so long as you own it and have no mortgage, this = no pressure and its a wonderful feeling


We had no mortgages on our properties apart from a short-term loan to enable us to buy the property in Canada...but they still incurred worry and expense.

Awkward tenants, all the repairs and redecorating...new appliances, carpets etc....
So there's still pressure. Now all we have to do is call our excellent landlord. Yesterday we/he bought a new dishwasher. We don't even have to ask him...he has alloted a monthly sum for repairs for us to spend without asking him first.

As my son is better off than I'll ever be there's no need to have anything to hand down when I die...
So there's no point in us owning property at this stage of our lives.
Any cash we have left when we are both dead will go to the dogs' home...literally.


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## tonyinspain (Jul 18, 2011)

I dont feel sorry for the banks i feel sorry for the expats that put their money in spain bought property here and spent money doing them up to a more modern standard and these banks have forclosed their mortgages 
Then sell these properties at a loss and chase the people for the outstanding balance putting them in more debt its sisgusting and my advice is dont buy RENT its safer


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

tonyinspain said:


> I dont feel sorry for the banks i feel sorry for the expats that put their money in spain bought property here and spent money doing them up to a more modern standard and these banks have forclosed their mortgages
> Then sell these properties at a loss and chase the people for the outstanding balance putting them in more debt its sisgusting and my advice is dont buy RENT its safer


it's not just expats though, is it? Spanish citizens are also losing their homes to the banks if they can't pay the mortgage

& no-one forced them to buy in the first place

of course the banks want all the money they loaned back - doesn't the same happen in the UK & elsewhere if your house is repossessed - if the house is sold for less than the mortgage don't the banks still want their money back?


I do agree with the advice to rent though


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## tonyinspain (Jul 18, 2011)

I agree no one forced them to buy and like i said me if i had my time again i would have rented 
But the banks were full of low intrest mortgages and its cheap to live in spain all the hype so people did invest and yes they are now in the preverbial
But the banks and estate agents all made money in the boon
And by the looks of it are going to do the same in the bust its the consumer thats going to suffer and yes i do think that its ruined a lot of dreams that people had and the attitude seems to be tbeir choice but not everyone has fantastic pensions loads of money in the bank collect disability while building there house 
Some people like me brought money into spain bought there house worked 18hours a day for eigjt years paid autonamo and now when they need help no ones around yes we had a choice was it right or wrong maybe but the banks had a big part in this and i dont see why they should get away with it and yes its easy for people on here tbats plenty of money to look at others with a satisfying smile and say its their choice im all right jack but sod you 
Try to spare a thought for the homeless and starving that these banks have caused with their insatable greed


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

tonyinspain said:


> I agree no one forced them to buy and like i said me if i had my time again i would have rented
> But the banks were full of low intrest mortgages and its cheap to live in spain all the hype so people did invest and yes they are now in the preverbial
> But the banks and estate agents all made money in the boon
> And by the looks of it are going to do the same in the bust its the consumer thats going to suffer and yes i do think that its ruined a lot of dreams that people had and the attitude seems to be tbeir choice but not everyone has fantastic pensions loads of money in the bank collect disability while building there house
> ...


no self satisfied smile from me

if we/my husband had bought, the mortgage would have been paid off when he died & I wouldn't be having to build my business up again in a recession so that I can support 2 teenagers & pay the rent every month 

I hear what you're saying

but it really isn't just Spain, is it?


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## tonyinspain (Jul 18, 2011)

Sorry if i offended you it wasnt my. Intention and i , like you havent by any means lived the dream here and a lot of our friends have gone back with nothing old saying 
One mans dream anothers nightmare
Anyhow had my rant keep the good work up tony x


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

tonyinspain said:


> Sorry if i offended you it wasnt my. Intention and i , like you havent by any means lived the dream here and a lot of our friends have gone back with nothing old saying
> One mans dream anothers nightmare
> Anyhow had my rant keep the good work up tony x


I wasn't offended - I just wanted to give another point of view

We didn't come here to live the dream - we just wanted a different lifestyle for us & our kids - & we've had that - & still are


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

tonyinspain said:


> I agree no one forced them to buy and like i said me if i had my time again i would have rented
> But the banks were full of low intrest mortgages and its cheap to live in spain all the hype so people did invest and yes they are now in the preverbial
> But the banks and estate agents all made money in the boon
> And by the looks of it are going to do the same in the bust its the consumer thats going to suffer and yes i do think that its ruined a lot of dreams that people had and the attitude seems to be tbeir choice but not everyone has fantastic pensions loads of money in the bank collect disability while building there house
> ...


But it's not black and white, it it? Yes, there are very many people in Spain and elswewhere who bought property and are now facing difficulties. There are many more with no job, no property, no hope for the future.
When you rightly complain about bankers you paint with too broad a brush. Tens of thousands of people who work for banks in quite humble positions have lost their jobs too. The trouble stems in part from the Thatcher deregulation which allowed banks to merge their retail and investment arms...in effect , to use your savings to invest in these new-fangled speculative financial products such as derivatives, hedge funds and so on. This is thankfully now to be stopped and the functions kept separate again.

Banks play a vital role in any economy. Their function is to provide liquidity and loans to business...which they are not doing and should be made to. Without banks there would be no money, no economy...nada. It is how they are regulated that is important.

House prices fluctuate....it's normal. People never complain when the value of their property increases hugely during a boom ...imagine the uproar if a government suggested taxing what is essentially unearned income. But when prices fall, people cry for help....

Everyone is suffering, the unemployed most of all. People with savings and pensions in sterling have seen the value erode by 30% with all the quantitive easing and falling £ - it's only recently it's gone up because of the eurozone problems.

My partner and I worked for seventy years between us, me in a stressful professional job and she running a medium-sized business. During that time we had our ups and downs too....we gritted our teeth during the recession of the late 1970s and early 1980s. Our pensions and savings weren't given to us in our Christmas stockings - they were worked for, 24/7 52/52 for years.

I have sympathy for those who worked hard and planned their lives in Spain. But I wonder how many had 'worst case' contingency plans in place....
The saying was that at one time all you needed to buy property in Spain was a pulse and a passport. I don't know how true that was. But I'm sure that there were people who thought Spain was like the Wild West in the Gold Rush and that there were easy profits to be made....I'm not so sorry for them.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> But it's not black and white, it it? Yes, there are very many people in Spain and elswewhere who bought property and are now facing difficulties. There are many more with no job, no property, no hope for the future.
> When you rightly complain about bankers you paint with too broad a brush. Tens of thousands of people who work for banks in quite humble positions have lost their jobs too. The trouble stems in part from the Thatcher deregulation which allowed banks to merge their retail and investment arms...in effect , to use your savings to invest in these new-fangled speculative financial products such as derivatives, hedge funds and so on. This is thankfully now to be stopped and the functions kept separate again.
> 
> Banks play a vital role in any economy. Their function is to provide liquidity and loans to business...which they are not doing and should be made to. Without banks there would be no money, no economy...nada. It is how they are regulated that is important.
> ...


I don't quite know what Thatcher has to do with Spain's problems............. but hey ho

a pulse & a passport - yes, when we came here 9 years ago that was pretty much right - & if you needed proof of earnings (P60?) - the mortgage broker could 'produce' one of those for you too


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## tonyinspain (Jul 18, 2011)

Poor old maggie she gets everyway 
,)


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## javierch (Aug 2, 2012)

Politicians and Banks are at fault ,no doubt of it .The government and the CAs didn't regulate the amount of properties being build or even investigate what the demand was and what the surplus was and They didn't make any laws to regulate the market either .
The Banks did offer morgages to some people too easily ,for example without full-time permanent employment and also using other properties already mortgaged as guaranty for the new property morgage,without independent valuations of lands,etc .
Also there was a very fast inmense increase in the price of some types of properties,mainly the ones that are going down quicker, the poorer ,working class areas in cities and rural ,small towns houses...you can not get property increasing in price that fast is not normal .
Rich people usually is involved in local politics,ayuntamientos,etc in Spain ....their families have land ... Ayuntamientos are the ones approving new builds ,the ones turning rural land into urban parcels ...and they get lots when selling their land into parcels .... and they have been making themselves rich that way for years and years but I think they got too greedy too fast this time and the Euro can't cope with the corruption like the peseta did . Some people working in banks ,mainly managers, were also corrupt and they have loaned illegally without proper checks ,valuations,etc.... because they have taken a piece of the cake of those loans .... and obviously normal and poor people wanting to make themselves rich and buying and buying and asking for loan,etc and as they were allowed to do so by the banks irresponsibility and lack of proper regulations .... .
I think many foreigners got stunk by their own and locals ,specially rural towns as they paid very ,very high prices for houses that 3 to 5 years earlier where very ,very cheap and it is unfair really... so in true it has been people in all walks of life trying to be greedy and the innocents that are paying the price ,very unfair .


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

javierch said:


> Politicians and Banks are at fault ,no doubt of it .The government and the CAs didn't regulate the amount of properties being build or even investigate what the demand was and what the surplus was and* They didn't make any laws to regulate the market either .*The Banks did offer morgages to some people too easily ,for example without full-time permanent employment and also using other properties already mortgaged as guaranty for the new property morgage,without independent valuations of lands,etc .
> Also there was a very fast inmense increase in the price of some types of properties,mainly the ones that are going down quicker, the poorer ,working class areas in cities and rural ,small towns houses...you can not get property increasing in price that fast is not normal .
> Rich people usually is involved in local politics,ayuntamientos,etc in Spain ....their families have land ... Ayuntamientos are the ones approving new builds ,the ones turning rural land into urban parcels ...and they get lots when selling their land into parcels .... and they have been making themselves rich that way for years and years but I think they got too greedy too fast this time and the Euro can't cope with the corruption like the peseta did . Some people working in banks ,mainly managers, were also corrupt and they have loaned illegally without proper checks ,valuations,etc.... because they have taken a piece of the cake of those loans .... and obviously normal and poor people wanting to make themselves rich and buying and buying and asking for loan,etc and as they were allowed to do so by the banks irresponsibility and lack of proper regulations .... .
> I think many foreigners got stunk by their own and locals ,specially rural towns as they paid very ,very high prices for houses that 3 to 5 years earlier where very ,very cheap and it is unfair really... so in true it has been people in all walks of life trying to be greedy and the innocents that are paying the price ,very unfair .


That is a very balanced summary of the situation. You can't pin blame entirely on any one section of society, as you rightly point out.

But I'd like to point out that Governments were powerless to regulate because of the terms of the Single European Act which bound EU member-states into accepting the principles of free movement of goods, labour and finance. It may well be that in light of current circumstances it's time to reevaluate that particular set of provisions....


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

xabiachica;860739[B said:


> ]I* don't quite know what Thatcher has to do with Spain's problems............. but hey ho*[/B]a pulse & a passport - yes, when we came here 9 years ago that was pretty much right - & if you needed proof of earnings (P60?) - the mortgage broker could 'produce' one of those for you too


Directly by being party to the piece of Euro-legislation which allowed free movement of people and finance so that there were no obstacles to people moving to Spain and taking advantage of cheap credit from whatever source -Spanish, British, German...
and indirectly by being Europe's leading proponent of 'laissez-faire' economics, a dubious philosophy taken up enthusiastically by Spanish and other European politicians of all Parties..

We won't get out of the mess we're in until we have a complete sea-change in our social and economic philosophy...of the kind we had in 1979 but in reverse. Whichever way you look at it, you can't get away from the fact that the rot started with the adoption of policies of deregulation, privatisation...and who started that in Europe..?


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## jimenato (Nov 21, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> I don't quite know what Thatcher has to do with Spain's problems............. but hey ho


Thatcher is responsible for everything that's wrong in the world - I'd have thought you would know that by now.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jimenato said:


> Thatcher is responsible for everything that's wrong in the world - I'd have thought you would know that by now.



Not the whole world, just the UK and Europe.
Although she was on friendly terms with the odious Pinochet...

But I note you don't refute my comment...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

jimenato said:


> Thatcher is responsible for everything that's wrong in the world - I'd have thought you would know that by now.


do think I actually _read_ all the political threads :rofl:


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Most cons/frauds happen because the victims are greedy. Everybody likes to blame the greed of the other side but why wouldn't you expect somebody taking your money to be greedy? Isn't it common sense to expect people taking your money to be interested in making money?

How often did the buyers think they were the ones getting the advantage?

If you bought your home to live in the current market price shouldn't matter. When people start considering their homes "investments" they run into problems.

I feel sorry for the families that have lost their principal homes. I really feel sorry for the kids.

I don't feel sorry for the people that speculated and lost.

Of course all of this could be avoided if the government assigned everybody an adult to make decisions for them. Say a nanny?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

NickZ said:


> Most cons/frauds happen because the victims are greedy. Everybody likes to blame the greed of the other side but why wouldn't you expect somebody taking your money to be greedy? Isn't it common sense to expect people taking your money to be interested in making money?
> 
> How often did the buyers think they were the ones getting the advantage?
> 
> ...


Sounds harsh...but it really is the truth, if we are to consider ourselves as adults capable of making our own decisions based on the best available evidence.

As I've pointed out before, people are happy to accept often untaxed capital gains when in 'boom' times but seek taxpayer help when things go bust.

This obviously applies principally to financial institutions -and like it or not we have to accept that banks, being the essential providers of liquidity, are 'special cases' - but also to individuals who very often fail to read the warnings of the 'small print' which are just as valid on financial contracts of any kind as the 'fumar mata' warnings on cigarette packets.


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## tonyinspain (Jul 18, 2011)

Yes i agree with alot said on here but those people that are sitting pretty right now and say tough i hope you get a taste of this 
Most people didnt buy to make money here they bought here because you could get better homes for less 
And we cannot call them greedy can we but their the ones thay suffered
And programmes like a place in the sun didnt help either i dont blame anyone thats trying to better themselves but i do think banks dont need to go down the repo way they should help the customer through the crisis and back on the payments they owe rather make people homeless immobliars richer and then have a ongoing bad debt
They should renegotiate with the people with mortgages and then when the crisis is over adjust the payments as and when they are in a position to pay more its,absolutly ludicrus to repo homes for arrears of 1000 euros or 3 months miss payments even when the person is still paying the mortgage and the arrears its disgusting and i do feel sorry for these people 
And as for small print yes you should read it but in the uk we,have it in every language there is here unless you can read spanish what chance have you of reading the small print 
In a ideal world we should do a lot of things 
We should shoot all stray dogs and cats but no we take them in feed them take them to vets and love them all im saying is there has to be a better way than repossesion


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## javierch (Aug 2, 2012)

Some people yes speculated and lost for example those that got a portofolio of properties to rent,etc but many ,many more hard working people ,including many expats didn't speculated with their money or invested in things that were risky ,many just invested in their own home because renting was as expensive as buying and paying a mortgage and because most people can not buy a home unless they pay it slowly and as they had a stable job they could do so.
Those that had a business invested their capital ,yes ,but many solid businesses that have been running for years and years have also failed ...not because the person that owned the business speculated or took risks but because what all the other people has done to the economy ... so yes many people took risks by accepting mortgages without decent permanent jobs thinking there were so lucky and many people borrowed and borrowed as much as they could to try to become rich as soon as possible and they have loss everything...their fault obviously but at the end of the day quite a few rich people,politicians,bankers ,etc have their pockets full with not loses ,those that speculated have nothing again and scores of those that worked very hard and did everything as they should are also left with nothing ,no job,no house,no help ...and they are the real victims.... all because all the other greedy people ..... and there are lots of victims in spain at the moment ...... 
and you have the fact that the banks not only take what they have to cover the debt but they keep any debt afterwards and they have to pay it with their salaries so they are ruin until they die ,sometimes also their parents and any guarantors ... I dont even think many people even knew about the debt not being cover with the property and they could be left with a massive debt for the rest of their life after becoming bankurrut .... and the people that took mortgages in cheaper areas of cities,hard working people without qualifications are those that own the most ... so they have to work in badly paid jobs for the rest of their lives just to pay that debt ... say you buy a property for 100.000 thousands euros and it is sold for 20.000 ... that is what happening so if they get a job they have to still pay the 80.000 left and also rent in a new property ,eat,etc with the 700 or 800 left after the bank takes a bit of their salary ... banks are garbage and some politicians too .


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## Abyss-Rover (Mar 17, 2012)

tonyinspain said:


> Yes i agree with alot said on here but those people that are sitting pretty right now and say tough i hope you get a taste of this
> Most people didnt buy to make money here they bought here because you could get better homes for less
> And we cannot call them greedy can we but their the ones thay suffered
> And programmes like a place in the sun didnt help either i dont blame anyone thats trying to better themselves but i do think banks dont need to go down the repo way they should help the customer through the crisis and back on the payments they owe rather make people homeless immobliars richer and then have a ongoing bad debt
> ...


I agree 100%. Repossessions only harm other property values, more so when these banks, who have been given funds because of their bad management, offload properties at low prices.

Why is it that the banks deserve to be saved and the home owners end up without a home?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Abyss-Rover;861231.
Why is it that the banks deserve to be saved and the home owners end up without a home?[/QUOTE said:


> The two are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> No-one should be without a home. Banks and other lenders should exercise common sense and discretion.
> 
> ...


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

tonyinspain said:


> Yes i agree with alot said on here but those people that are sitting pretty right now and say tough i hope you get a taste of this
> Most people didnt buy to make money here they bought here because you could get better homes for less
> And we cannot call them greedy can we but their the ones thay suffered
> And programmes like a place in the sun didnt help either i dont blame anyone thats trying to better themselves but i do think banks dont need to go down the repo way they should help the customer through the crisis and back on the payments they owe rather make people homeless immobliars richer and then have a ongoing bad debt
> ...


Whilst I can't see what for the life of me stray cats and dogs have to do with house repossessions, no sane person would disagree that in the twenty-first century should be without a roof over their heads. 

As for the point about 'small print in Spanish'....how silly not to get it translated when you are parting with hundreds of thousands of euros....

I don't think anyone has said 'tough get a taste of this'...where did you read that?

Most people are here because they are working or have worked hard throughout their lives. This isn't the first recession some of us have lived through -and survived - but it certainly is the worst.

Some of us are merely trying to point out that it isn't a case of black and white, innocent and guilty. If this crisis teaches people to be more financially prudent and to understand that boprrowing entails repayment and that the economy doesn't always operaqte in top gear, all well and good.

And remember that people who worked hard for decades in the UK to build up sufficient savings to be able to retire in comfort have seen their savings and pensions fall in value by 30% or more. We were taxed when we were earning and are now taxed on our savings.
And low interest rates reward debtors and penalise savers so retirees on low pension incomes will be among the very worst off in Spain and elsewhere.


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## Tippy (Nov 1, 2010)

What I always say is that people will always do what you let them do or get away with.Deregulation of anything allows for fiddles. Bankers and politicians seem to live by different rules to everyone else. Because we let them get away with their misdeeds it doesn't send the right signal to us lot. We have all these enquiries , a few rapped knuckles, a couple of expense fiddlers go to prison, a collective sigh of relief and back to the trough.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Tippy said:


> What I always say is that people will always do what you let them do or get away with.Deregulation of anything allows for fiddles. Bankers and politicians seem to live by different rules to everyone else. Because we let them get away with their misdeeds it doesn't send the right signal to us lot. We have all these enquiries , a few rapped knuckles, a couple of expense fiddlers go to prison, a collective sigh of relief and back to the trough.


Yes, human nature is deeply flawed. History tells us that it is fantasy to believe that anything human can be 'perfected'. Improved, yes. Perfect, no. That's why political ideologies that promise heaven on earth are deeply suspect. They may be perfect models of rational abstract precepts but they don't fit over the untidyness and sheer unpredictability of real everyday life.

So we have to accept that there will always be criminality, inequality,abuse of privilege and so on. As Jesus said, 'The poor are always with us'. Some people will always have less than others, that's life. Sometimes it's the outcome of 'just deserts'.

But the task of government is to curb this kind of deviant behaviour as far as possible without restriction of our personal freedoms. So regulation is essential and its enforcement equally so. The right signals do need to be sent.

But there never has been and never will be a perfect society where the 'bad' human passions have been totally suppressed or even eradicated. We just have to accept that albeit reluctantly and in our own ways do our bit to make life better and easier for our fellow humans and other animals.


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