# Algarve here we come! help



## Jeff TT (Aug 1, 2010)

After 5 years of saying I am moving to Portugal the actual decision has been made, a week of looking around the Guia area ( Albufeira ) has helped us decide its where we want to be, viewing properties was both fun and interesting, sadly time ran out and have just retuned to the UK and since its done nothing but rain, like any more reason was needed!!

So we are selling up and going to do it as quick as we can sell our home here, we plan to rent for a little while in Portugal and then buy once the money comes through, hopefully should have around £300k to £400k ( waiting for valuation on Saturday ) if we buy around the £200k mark we will have nice nest egg left. 

I have made enquires around the area and there seems plenty of small general maintenance jobs that I can do. 

I am a qualified electrician and heating and ventilation engineer, so confident there is something I can do, not full time but say cherry pick the jobs to just top up for weekly bills etc. I do not expect to see this happen as soon as we arrive so was wondering is am I correct in thinking at 52 years old I have enough to live on if I just do a little work rather than ful time as semi retirement would be the perfect ideal for me, mortgage free!

Also what is the quickest and simplest way to get a fiscal number and bank account, do I need to be there myself or can I get a lawyer to do it.

Thanks for any help.

Jeff


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## siobhanwf (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi Jeff

Some of you questions will be answered on this thread which was posted previously

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/po...ts-living-portugal/84420-bank-accounts-3.html


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## siobhanwf (Mar 20, 2009)

FISCAL NUMBER

Anyone moving to Portugal *must *apply for the *Número de Indentificação Fiscal (NIF*). An NIF number is required for a number of actions: to buy a house or car. You will find that it is even requested when you make some pricey purchases like white goods for the house.

Applications for an NIF number can be made by tourists or residents at the local Tax Office (finanças), on presentation of a valid passport. You will need an address here in Portugal. 

I am sure that Canoeman will answer more of you question when he next comes online


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Siobhán's right NIF and a bank accountant very easy to do, but *you don't need* a Portuguese address, when you move you then changes the addresses.

It is easy and quick to do yourself and with the cost of flights is cheaper to do a quick fly (not a weekend or a holiday day) in than get a lawyer to do for you, as it requires Letters of authority etc, etc

For NIF you need Passport and proof of UK address, think cost is still €7 per person

For Bank A/c you need NIF, Passport, UK Utility bills, then P60, contract of employment, pension or similar and some money to pay in.

I would recommend Millennium bcp, they are widespread throughout Portugal, on-line banking in English and free money transfers UK to Portugal, plus an increasing amount of other information in English.

You do have another alternative, that is to open a Millennium a/c in UK London branch, they will get a *temporary NIF* number for you, but it *can be difficult* getting Financas to change the Temporary number to a Permanent.

£100,000 nest egg sounds a lot, but not really, depends on what other money you have to finance the move and your choice of lifestyle. 
It's not just buying a £200000 house which will cost you an extra (2012) €6513 taxes, about €500 Escritura + Solicitor, then the move, car etc

Algarve in comparison to other areas of Portugal is an expensive place to live and I wouldn't rely on maybe being able to cherry pick work to top up bills.


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## notlongnow (May 21, 2009)

Also (and not to discourage you - just so you know) - you are not qualified as an electrician here unless you retrain and take exams in Portuguese. Although you don't need to work, I don't think being able to cherry-pick jobs is a realistic impression. There are a lot of people here who are seriously struggling to find anything.


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## Frank Wilson (Jul 15, 2010)

I think you are being quite optimistic Jeff. I am a few years older than yourself with a paid for property already in Portugal (and please don't take this the wrong way) but with a bigger nest egg than your expected one and I don't feel that we would have enough to live on.

Take into consideration that your 200K will earn peanuts at today's interest rates, so living very modestly on 15K a year your money would be gone in 13 years, that's without initial big expenditure (car / furniture / electrical goods etc)

The curve ball you haven't mentioned is that you may have pensions due.

I wish you well mate but to feel comfortable when we arrive I am going to do another three years penance, sorry work!

Good luck.


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## Jeff TT (Aug 1, 2010)

Thanks all for the replies, its good to have other knowledgable views to keep my feet on the ground as it were. Financing our life in Portugal is a very important one and if I have to work I will, the issue is in the UK I have always worked and the last few 10 years had my own business, I had intially thought to leave this running and promote my 30yr old son to the full time manager / partner but to my surprise did not want to do it, selling a business even with good customer / work base etc. is slow and can shut it down and strip all the assetts from it.

Working is not a problem for me providing its not a problem actually getting work that makes a difference, I do still own a second property in the UK that is currently rented out and we take a small profit from that each month too.

Again thanks for all the comments they are been taken in, hopefully I can ask a few more, cars seem very expensive and getting UK ( imported ) cars legal seems a lot of expense, is there a set amount it cost such as percentage of new cost or not? big shame for me as I am seriously and have been most of my life into cars and love my BMW M5 and Japanese sports car, my wife has a BMW convertible too but we are realistic and hard as it is am I right in thinking this is one area I will have to let go? 

How do you know what solicitor to trust? have heard tales of shockingly bad practises, our friends where well done over, they gave power of attorney to their Portuguese solicitor who signed the final ownership papers for them in their absents, it later turned out there was 40k euro of tax debt on the property and the solicitor has signed an acceptance document that meant our friends had to pay this back tax debt that was not theirs!!

Thanks in advance.

Jeff


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Jeff TT said:


> Working is not a problem for me providing its not a problem actually getting work that makes a difference, I do still own a second property in the UK that is currently rented out and we take a small profit from that each month too.
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Jeff


And that's the crux actually getting work, it's been said many times if you must have work to live then you should do very serious research, the Algarve is no different an in some respects worse, because you will immediately be competing against an established expat and local workforce and businesses. 

Cars don't have to be expensive to import, a typical cost is around €700 if you meet the criteria for free ISV. The downside is yearly car tax and a r/h drive car in a l/h country.
Solicitors take good personal recommendation. Yes your friends got ripped off but why? who buys a property with debt attached? one of the fundamentals of the Escritura is to check and state property is debt free.
Don't forget your UK property income will be subject to UK or Portuguese tax.


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## Jeff TT (Aug 1, 2010)

Thanks Canoeman, I can see there is lots to learn, what is the criteria for the free ISV and please excuse my ignorance is ISV exactly?

Have made some contacts already with expats who live or work around the Guia area and seems there is a shortage of general workmen for smaller jobs that say older retired owners are unable to complete, these are the areas I thought may open up to me once I become a permanent resident, I am not under the illusion this will come easy though, running my own business in the uk for 12+ years has taught me a lot but a different country and a different ball game I know.

More research and and more research is the key I guess, thanks again, hopefully you all do not mind me asking too many questions.

Regards

Jeff


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

ISV = Imposto Sobre Veículos = vehicle tax, not to be confused with road tax, simplest easiest explanation of criteria and procedure on UK Embassy site Importing cars

the extra costs are forms from Customs €2, Consulate Declaration €157pp, IPO (MOT )€78, plates €15, CofC varies with car £100?, headlights £?, rear/reversing possibly £?, travelling or employing an agent to do it for you, regardless of the age of the car you will pay yearly Road Tax based on the year you Matriculate *not* the date car was 1st registered in UK.

Work still think your basing possibility on incorrect presumptions, reality is very different and rates of pay, also as notlongnow pointed out qualifications and the Portuguese authorities tightening up on the black economy.


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## steve01 (Dec 8, 2010)

Hi Jeff
Regarding the car

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the above are good start points - almost correct.

I did it, took about 4 months and cost about 500 euros, including having to drive approx 2000km back and forth to customs(alfanda) and imtt(dvla) and the ipo test centre.

Agents will offer to help for an additional 500-700 euros.

Be aware if you import a RHD its very difficult to sell on, and you have virtually no possibility of part-x

Also be aware that if you import an old car, that the new road tax rules apply as if it was new on the date of import, not when it was originally new in the UK.

e.g for my 9yo merc the current annual road tax is 585 euros, if it was an identical Portuguese car, registered here 9 years ago it would be 50euros, big difference.

Basically you must be able to prove that you pre-owned the car for at least 12 months

You must prove that you lived in a different country for at least 12 months, you must then prove that you've left that country - contact your UK Consulate for a document to show you've left.

Keep all UK utility bills, its a complete guess whats good to provre your previous life in UK, electricty - yes, phone, no, bank statements - no, etc etc - and you can't have any gaps in dates - diffiucult for us simply because of the final dates on the French bills paid by standing order

You then prove you live in Portugal, and have a residence card (or 2)

Prove you don't owe taxes here, and/or social security(even necessary on day 1)

Have insurance for your foreign car.

Fill in the ridiculous modelo 9 / type approval form - coc vital

featuring such questions as whats the official distance between your rear wheel and the end of the car - in my case Mercedes didn't know so i eventually just made it up

Go to an approved centre for the special import test IPO) - only a few in the whole of Portugal and hope you pass.


Go back to imtt for the next piece of paper, including your reg number

Go the customs to buy the forms.

Fill them in.

Return with a suitcase full of papers, photocopied x3 and be prepared to wait and realise no-one is ever going to admit to speaking English.

Eventually you'll receive an approval / rejection through the post

Go buy plates and get them fitted.

Go to the tax office and be amazed at your annual road tax.

You're now stuck with your car for a minimum of 12 months (this seems to vary depends who you ask)

Best of luck

p.s the whole lot is currently under review

Don't forget you only have a maximum of 6 months after arriving to begin the process and if it fails you either have to pay the unbelievable 'green' import duties - 20k on my car or you're told to take the car out of Portugal immediately

it was fun really, bit like the beginning of kung fu when he picked up the hot coals, walked the ricepaper etc.

I only did mine becaue its lhd, originallyFrench and is worth at least 5k more now its imported.

I'd never do it again

try http://www.olx.pt to give you an idea of Portuguese second hand car prices - they seem to have dropped of late and its much nicer to be sitting on the correct side of the car sometimes.

Regarding Solicitors/ Lawyers - its all the same thing here , there is no difference between the two.

We've bought several properties here and never had a problem with a lawyer - i'd be happy to privately recommend the 2 we've used approc 15 minutes away from the area you're considering.
The only issue we ever had was when an estate agent offered to fulfil the role of the lawyer - he charged more and totally screwed up - i'd recommend you never do anything like that.

Regarding work - its tough at the moment, but there's always work for the willing and able.

Regarding income - at this moment its possible to get 6% interest on cash deposits of over 10k fixrd for 3-4 years in euros

Its certainly a good time to buy, prices at their lowest since the year 2000, however apartments are still dropping but houses seem to have leveled out and in some areas are going up - biggest problem here for sellers, but good news for you is its a very slow market.


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The cost of living here is much lower than the other European countries i've lived in England/Wales/Belgium/Holland/France and Spain - not sure why people complain about it, but it is rising.
The Algarve offers you the chance to live whatever lifestyle you'd like - we have everything from cheap apartments to multi million mansions, lovely local cafes to get a meal for 5 euros with wine or michelin starred restaurants - I think with no mortgage you can live a great life here with between 10-20k p.a euros depending on your chosen lifestyle

Last point - We love it here and wouldn't live anywhere else, mainly because of the fabulous climate and people

Best of Luck

Steve


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Just to put it in perspective the last time I helped someone do matriculation, with everything prepared and in place took 3 days, start to finish and certainly didn't travel 2000kms, maybe it depends on region your in and staff, the only onerous bit was a trip to Consulate in Porto but they combined that with a day out and some shopping.


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## Jeff TT (Aug 1, 2010)

Wow more things to think about, Steve would be very interested about the rental on your villa, cannot work out how to pm, do I have to subscribe? please if you can send me details to my email addy [email protected]

All advise gratefully accepted, the car import and taxation info and links is just what I needed to know thanks again, now what else can I ask??

Cheers 

Jeff


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