# Newbie on site...building permits



## msvh (Aug 5, 2008)

Hi all,

I am looking at retiring in the next 18 months to the Aragon area. My wife and I intend to make a complete life change after well over 20 years in the forces. I have no intention of continuing my current line of work as a Sy Risk Manager but plan to start all over again with the basics - plot and a basic structure. We will tent/caravan it for as long as necessary while we self build our retirement home and develop as much of a self-sustainable lifestyle as possible. 

We have identified some potential plots/fincas already and will be viewing in the next few weeks, but whilst going through the plethora of advice and direction available I have not yet managed to clarify the following detail regarding self-building - I don't mean getting the local brickie in but doing it myself. I understand the requirement for a proyecto & aparejador but why must the building permit for major works be signed by a builder also? Am I misreading this or can the builder be the owner/client - surely you are not forced to employ a builder? How does this affect the insurances/guarantee if I do it? Or will I be expected to go away and get a qualification (no problems if needed).

If anyone else has gone through this I would be very grateful for any advice or direction - I will no doubt come across other questions! Thanks in advance.


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## msvh (Aug 5, 2008)

Hello again,

I found this post from back in 2007 from a Spanish solicitor the initial highlighted point is as I earlier mentioned, however the Tax issue appears to suggest that one can indeed do the works yourself but I may be reading it wrong?

Documentation required 

Aplication with description of the works, proposed use, budget, owner and/or builder identification and location. You should keep one sealed copy of the application form

b) Major construction work permit “Licencia de Obra mayor”For undertaking works such as new buildings, alterations, demolitions or even the construction of a swimming pool you need to apply for a “Licencia de Obra mayor”

Documentation required 

Application form signed by an architect, architectural engineer, promoter and builder must be accompanied by a plan of the site, details of any proposed works and two copies of the construction drawings endorsed by the Architects Association 

Tax

Construction Tax “Impuesto sobre instalaciones construcciones y obras” I.C.I.O. and/or Licence fees. These are calculated depending on the figure set by your Town Council, approximately ICIO costs about 3-4% of the estimated construction costs and Licence fees about 1-2%. It is irrelevant for this tax if you have the materials and you and only you are going to undertake the works therefore you have to pay tax in this case calculating the cost according to the guidelines of the Architect Association. These fees are not refundable even the permit is not granted.


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## rowlandsbb (Jun 30, 2007)

Sounds a nice idea but if you do a new self build in UK you have to have the 10 year guarantee and to get it is not easy...but not impossible...I suspect the same applies in Spain so you need a good lawyer to advise you in English every step of the way

If you do not do it properly then it will not be fully legal and in the future you may not be able to sell!!!

A lot of risks if you are not fluent in Spanish!

You are clearly seeking a real Spanish environment and there are some good legal new builds which fit this requirement....not isolated but still real Spain

I know this because my wife and I wanted a Spanish ' el medio ambiente atractivo' but as a UK Chartered Surveyor and an Agent were not prepared to take the risk of old property or a plot in a small village.....so we ended up buying a legal new build to modern spec with solar for hot water in a small hamlet near Huercal Overa Almeria

We get ' el medio ambiente' without the problems

But good luck.....life is for living and having a go.....but play safe


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## Stravinsky (Aug 12, 2007)

To obtain the 10 year guarantee which is apparently required on all new builds nowadays the plans have to be submitted, and the building has to be inspected at every stage. Only if this is done, can a guarantee be issued.

If you dont do it then it becomes difficult to sell the house in the first 10 years of its life. Not impossible, but difficult, and you can end up being liable for structural defects if you sell for the 10 years whilst someone else lives there.


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## msvh (Aug 5, 2008)

Thanks for the comments, I appreciate it and you have confirmed exactly what I suspected, that whilst it is 'possible' to build a property yourself the proyecto & aparejador would need to be on site virtually 24/7 to ensure that works were being completed correctly. 

That said a weekly progress visit from the surveyor/engineer may actually serve my purposes better - I am not expecting to build over night and it would allow me to project manage at a slower pace. We wanted isolated, remote a best - smallest plot we're looking at is 6.5h one of them is 24h! probably a little too big.

I think I am going to have to look at this from a different angle as new builds (built by someone else that is) are a complete non-starter, not least because they will be very unlikely to meet the material standards I need to stipulate. It won't be a complicated build by any stretch of the imagination - single storey solid block with additional internal insulation, all internal work will be block, over 60% of roof space will be terrace (less original structure). Floors and ceilings will be jetfloor. Solar, wind with generater back-up and bore-hole and bio/composter loos. In truth if we found an 'original' build close to our design we would go for it, but it is unlikely that we will find anything due to the layout needs - room for 75 yr old father, as fit as a fiddle but likes his space!

The plans are at draft stage. Looks as though I will have to find a surveyor/engineer who is willing to put up with a protracted build one step at a time! I hope he has a good sense of humour!

Incidentally, have you come across anyone who has recently gone through solar/wind installation process and if they benefited from the Sp Gov grants system? I have found it quite difficult to get to the bottom of this as well, unfortuantely my Spanish is not up to scratch yet!

Thanks


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## msvh (Aug 5, 2008)

“SEGURO DECENAL” OR TEN YEARS INSURANCE 

Also, in this point is very important for you to consider what is called SEGURO DECENAL or TEN YEARS INSURANCE.

When you buy off-plan from a builder or developer, or you, by yourself build new property (which is your case now), the builder or developer, together with the architect, must guaranty you that the essential and most important parts of the construction will be secure at least for ten years, following the Spanish laws.

In order to confirm this responsibility, the Spanish regulations forces to the developers of new buildings to insurance the most important parts of the construction, as the foundations, internal structure, bines, etc. Other defects affecting the habitability of the property are covered for 3 years. Other minor defects are covered for 1 year. In the last two cases insurance cover is not required, but obviously if a builder can offer this as an additional guarantee, it will be better.

Also, it is an additional guaranty for the construction, because the same insurance company will force the builder to pass determinate quality inspections, to check the quality of the materials and the works made in the property, in order to give the proper policy.

The Ten Years Insurance (or “Seguro Decenal”) is obligatory and compulsory when the promoter is a company with the activity to build houses for sale. This is called in Spain “Autopromotor”, translated as “Self-Promoter”, or “Self-Developer”. This is the case in which a particular buys a land in Spain with the intention to build a house for him as main, or second residence, but he has not the activity of buying for sale. In these cases, the Spanish laws give the option to these particulars to not apply for this insurance, because the Spanish Government understand that, if a particular is building something to live inside, he will take the necessary care to build in a safe and secure way. So, the particular can choose whether to save costs avoiding to pay this insurance; or in instance, to contract this insurance to have a better protection against grave construction problems and defects.

But, if you as self-promoter chose not to apply for this insurance, when you sell the house in the future to other buyers, the Spanish Laws forces you to inform them that the construction is not covered with this guaranty, and they must accept this condition from the sale. From the point of view of an eventual buyer, it will be always a better option to buy a property with this insurance. So, they must be duly informed, and they must confirm, that the property is not with any insurance in this way.

Thought this may be useful...


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

msvh said:


> “SEGURO DECENAL” OR TEN YEARS INSURANCE
> 
> Also, in this point is very important for you to consider what is called SEGURO DECENAL or TEN YEARS INSURANCE.
> 
> ...


14 months on - have you started building yet?


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## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

xabiachica said:


> 14 months on - have you started building yet?


I sincerely hope so....perhaps the question is does he have the licence to build yet? I believe you get 36 months to complete following receipt of the licence...with extensions granted where there is a good case...

By the way (as an add on to previous poster) unless I'm very much mistaken, the architect and builder have responsibility for the structure for 10 years - whether the owner has the "seguro decenal" or not. If you're building the property yourself for yourself, the issue of the insurance only arises if you sell it before the ten years are up, in which case I believe you have to buy the remaining period and not simply inform...

But I could be wrong!! The college of architects should verify if in doubt. 

Tally.x


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I havent read thru this thread completely, just skimmed. But I have a neighbour, who 6 years ago was granted all permissions to build on a plot of land he bought! He had the approved plans, all the necessary stuff in place, employed a construction company and all systems go! 

Anyway, the construction company decided to use a short cut to the land and to make their life easier filled in a stream to enable them quicker access, the local Junta objected, so the construction company put a pipe under their temporary road to allow the stream to flow again - this angered the local Junta so much that they revoked all planning permissions! 5 years on, our neighbours still live in a caravan and are still fighting to get their permission back.

Just thought it maybe of interest - or not !!?

Jo xxx


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## msvh (Aug 5, 2008)

Sorry for that last biggie! I can not believe it is so difficult to get a simple answer or at least an answer with a common thread to a question that is in reality quite simple - Do _I_ need to take out any form of insurance for defects that may occur on the property _I_ will be building _personally_ and living in beyond the stipulate 10 year requirement that is required by contractors?

I found this link. It is tantalisingly close to the mark but I think the response indicates a misunderstanding again, unless I am reading it wrong? Any suggestions...

As for starting to build yet - nope! but I still have a 4 month window until hitting the critical decision point and we have at least now got a firm idea of the plot we are aiming for. Just waiting for several of the basic checks to come back from the laywer before we commit to the purchase. 14 months, hells' teeth were did the time go? Pork and lamb butchery courses to look forward to in a couple of weeks anyway.

How does the mandatory insurance on new constructions work? - belegal.com


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

The answer is very simple to anybody who can't get a de facto black and white answer on a forum - ask a professional ......and be prepared to pay. 

Having seen too many houses ripped down, planning permission revoked etc here, I would not trust anything unless it was in writing from a professional. If I were embarking on a project like this, I'd be camped at my solicitor's demanding finite answers.

Also be prepared to accept that this being Spain, each and every municipality might have separate bye-laws which might be more or less strictly adhered to ......and that they might change OFTEN!

I wish you every success - it sounds an exciting project.


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

msvh said:


> Sorry for that last biggie! I can not believe it is so difficult to get a simple answer or at least an answer with a common thread to a question that is in reality quite simple - Do _I_ need to take out any form of insurance for defects that may occur on the property _I_ will be building _personally_ and living in beyond the stipulate 10 year requirement that is required by contractors?
> 
> I found this link. It is tantalisingly close to the mark but I think the response indicates a misunderstanding again, unless I am reading it wrong? Any suggestions...
> 
> ...


Looks like your link has answered all your questions. What's the problem with it?

It says you must have the insurance in order to register the property. I wasn't asked anything about insurances to register mine, but was asked to prove a hell of a lot of other things like deeds (from a fersh notario draw up reflecting any changes - like house on land now etc) Catastro reference in text and graphic etc.

The only thing that requires clarification is whether the insurances mentioned are a legal must if you are building a house for yourself (i.e. not building in order to sell on). So far as I am aware, the Architect will bear the burden of the 10 year structural defects in any case, but ask the school of arcitects to make sure for your area. As to you HAVING to take any insurance out, this will be dependent on your local rules and regs, you must ask a local solicitor. Surely that one question won't cost much. Be aware that despite this being Spain, there's still a name to register officially for the responsibility of the health and safety of the works. Also, whilst you might be the builder, the architect won't be the one that's there to lead you technically. You'll be lucky if you see him/her on site more than a few times. It's the aparejador who does that. Sometimes known as Architecto technico, he is the man on site very often for things like steel placement, concrete pours etc.

As to limits from neighbours, the Ayuntamiento is the only one who can officially tell you. Like the UK, there's a mass of dependency. Is it sorrounded by National roads (sounds like it if it's 25 M) good job it isn't motorways, that'd be 50 or 100. Also, any impacted land by railway (again, 50M no construction). Is it Rural or Urban designation. If Urban (though in a rural setting), you should be able to build with only 3 M from the neighbour's land. He kept the same so min 6 M between structures. The front, is it a "camino", 4 M from the centre, or a Diputacion road - if the latter, then it's 4 M from where your land starts. Are you near a church - ouch, permit from Santiago (in the case of galicia). etc., etc., etc.

The ayuntamiento perito (or technico de Urbanismo) or whatever the hell they're called where you're at, is a great place to start.

Above all else, remember, what the mayor says don't mean s%&t! It's that person in Urbanismo that counts. They are not an elected post.

Good luck - and might I suggest that you really do need an Aparejador as without them, without knowing all the ins and outs, you're going to have your head spinning for a long time. The good news is that once the planting out is done - sticks and string on the land - and the ayuntamiento guy comes along and signs the go ahead, you know you're there - for the building phase in any case.

Perhaps the Architect who does your project can do rather more than that and actually guide you in what's needed and where etc. Either way, you should have a "pilot" or you will surely hit something.

Xose


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## msvh (Aug 5, 2008)

*ring-a-ring-a-roses...*



SteveHall said:


> The answer is very simple to anybody who can't get a de facto black and white answer on a forum - ask a professional ......and be prepared to pay.
> 
> I appreciate the advice and sentiment. It is the contradictions from people who I would _assume _would know and those I am _paying_ to find out that is frankly, comical.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

msvh said:


> SteveHall said:
> 
> 
> > The answer is very simple to anybody who can't get a de facto black and white answer on a forum - ask a professional ......and be prepared to pay.
> ...


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## msvh (Aug 5, 2008)

Your comments are well received Xose. 

The only thing that requires clarification is whether the insurances mentioned are a legal must if you are building a house for yourself (i.e. not building in order to sell on). *precisely* 

So far as I am aware, the Architect will bear the burden of the 10 year structural defects in any case, but ask the school of arcitects to make sure for your area. They do!

As to you HAVING to take any insurance out, this will be dependent on your local rules and regs, you must ask a local solicitor. Surely that one question won't cost much. It is not the cost, it is the constant contradictions, Xose. between architect and lawyer and town hall (not just with insurance obviously)- I never seem to get all three to come back with a definitive answer!

Sometimes known as Architecto technico, he is the man on site very often for things like steel placement, concrete pours etc. Already identified this, but I appreciate you raising it just in case I had not, and frankly I am tending simply to go with what he says a sod the rest!

As to limits from neighbours, This is one that is up in the air at the moment and I am awaiting further clarification. The situation is, that the 'building' is in middle of a huge plot, however, their are several parcelas making up the plot that is for sale. The building happens to be situated right on one of the parcela boundaries - in fact the parcela wraps around 3 sides of the building. Those 3 sides happen to back onto a parcela not for sale as part of the plot. I have been informed by the agent that any newly completed building will have a 150 m no build exclusion zone around it. I could be completely wrong to doubt this but it seems a little too convenient for my liking - hence the continued push for clarification. 

The ayuntamiento perito (or technico de Urbanismo) or whatever the hell they're called where you're at, is a great place to start. Yes, indeed and I am waiting for a response through the agent.

Above all else, remember, what the mayor says don't mean s%&t! It's that person in Urbanismo that counts. They are not an elected post. Absolutely, though it took me over 6 months to figure that out!

Good luck - and might I suggest that you really do need an Aparejador. Thanks, I am beginning to feel I need it and I am tending to agree with you about the Aparejador but I'll wait to see what the 'techno' says.

Thank the Lord this is only a single story, straight forward building with no whistles or bells- I keep dreaming I'm building the Lighthouse of Alexandria!
Half the problem of course is that I am so removed from everything down here in Gib so can't get any proper face time. I feel like I've been trying to knit fog for 12 months :frusty::ranger:


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## SteveHall (Oct 17, 2008)

msvh said:


> SteveHall said:
> 
> 
> > The answer is very simple to anybody who can't get a de facto black and white answer on a forum - ask a professional ......and be prepared to pay.
> ...


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## Xose (Dec 10, 2008)

Hi Again MSVH,
The law re Seguro Decenal came into effect in May 2000. In 2003, it was altered so that Autopromotores - self builds (or where the Promotor will be the owner living in it as primary home) - does not require by law to take one out. I am not aware that there have been changes since, but I'm not a lawyer!

Here's the site Seguro Decenal

and here's the text from it.

_Esta ley ha sido modificada por la ley de Acompañamiento de los Presupuestos Generales del Estado del 2003, estableciéndose la derogación de obligatoriedad del seguro decenal para los autopromotores. Pero si se produce una transmisión intervivos en los diez primeros años desde la primera inscripción de la vivienda, salvo pacto en contrario de las partes, se estará obligado a la constitución de dicha garantía. Y debido a la dificultad de contratar un Seguro Decenal una vez terminada la edificación, para poder transmitir la vivienda el auto promotor, el comprador deberá renunciar expresamente a la existencia de dicho Seguro Decenal._

Be sure that you won't be looking to sell for 10 Years as getting the insurance post build is not easy... and buyers might be put off having to officially accept that there is no such insurance.

Having said all this, you doing a self build is not quite the same as most people doing a self build via a builder. That builder will have the previously mentioned Health and Safety guy on site (an officially nominated party). He will ensure the concrete sampling is sent off to the relevent lab in the right format and duly recorded. He will ensure that soil sampling is done if the area is a bit dodgy (Wells not recorded in Minas etc) or unknown. He will also have all the Insurances for public liability etc., etc., and lord knows what else when it comes to building site risks. That's a lot to take on on a litteral self build.

As to boundaries. Ask your architect for a copy of the Plan de Urbanismo for the area. He/She should also be able to find out very quickly what the limits to borders are in that area. This comes from provincial government so the local ayuntamiento has little to do other than follow it.

I hope the 10 year insurance has been cleared up - or at least allow you to ask the relevent question re: the law stated on the site and its 2003 amendment for Autopromotores.

Best of luck,
Xose


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## msvh (Aug 5, 2008)

How wierd, I posted a response here on the 15th that doesn't appear to have shown up?!

Anyway, in summary:

>>>Here's the site Seguro Decenal<<<
Spooky - I was looking at the very same on Wed evening! I took it to work for a Spainsh colleague to translate. After ten years, whether there was insurance or not it is irrelevant - any 'damage' would be reflected in a reduction of sale price. Site insurance is a given (H&S, liability cover etc).

>>>concrete sampling is sent off to the relevent lab<<<
Jeez, I'm building a single story home, not the Aswad dam -:faint:- the architect/techno stipulate the required mix - it's ordered and that's what the concrete company delivers and one of them is on site to ensure it meets requirements - that said I'm using suspended floors, block foundation so there is little requirement for concrete or screed that can't be managed on site! We thankfully have lots of bedrock under the current building and expansion area. I can only assume that's why it was put there in the first place. And the project wont get to that point if the ground survey doesn't come up trumps anyway and there is no reason why it shouldn't given the areas history, but it is being checked all the same.

>>>As to boundaries. Ask your architect for a copy of the Plan de Urbanismo for the area.<<<
Frankly, this is my key area of concern now - I need these questions answered or there is likely to be a project hold up in the not too distant future! The Town Hall are pretty good and progressive, I suppose, despite my protestations previously. They most certainly welcome the interest in the area and project submission so I suppose it is in their best interests to facilite. There are several people scratching their heads as we speak (i say that euphemistically), attempting to clarify this - it might even mean purchasing extra land to ensure we don't have future issues, eek!

Can you tell I have had some decent sleep lately?! Virtually all my work commitments are wrapped up (a security risk management project over 12 months on £640m of assets for the MoD - no pressure then) so I can now see a clear horizon to focus on.

Thanks for all the input to date folks, it is very useful to bounce ideas of people - even if you do get different responses - I will no doubt be throwing the odd query in over the next couple of years as I dip my toe into less familiar waters. 

Cheers...


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