# ICON - Puerto Vallarta



## newpvrguy

I am considering a long term rental in the ICON in the hotel zone in Puerto Vallarta. Does anyone have any experience with this property? Thanks for any info you can provide.


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## FHBOY

newpvrguy said:


> I am considering a long term rental in the ICON in the hotel zone in Puerto Vallarta. Does anyone have any experience with this property? Thanks for any info you can provide.


I don't have any info, but I'd like to have your money. 

Looked at the website, sorry but to me it looks like Miami Beach, Abu Dabi in PV. But everyone has their own tastes and if living in a foreign country the same way you in your home country is what you want, this looks like the place do to it, your contact with real Mexico should be very superficial and rare.

But I'd love to vacation there - what a joint - classy!


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## Isla Verde

FHBOY said:


> I don't have any info, but I'd like to have your money.
> 
> Looked at the website, sorry but to me it looks like Miami Beach, Abu Dabi in PV. But everyone has their own tastes and if living in a foreign country the same way you in your home country is what you want, this looks like the place do to it, your contact with real Mexico should be very superficial and rare.
> 
> But I'd love to vacation there - what a joint - classy!


Maybe the OP is planning on a very long-term vacation in this classy joint.


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## johnmex

I never realized that living in a polish whorehouse would be so expensive...


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## conorkilleen

newpvrguy said:


> I am considering a long term rental in the ICON in the hotel zone in Puerto Vallarta. Does anyone have any experience with this property? Thanks for any info you can provide.


A vendor of mine has a condo in that area. Very, very nice, clean, and posh. They say whenever I am in Puerto Vallarta I am free to stay there if I want. I am never in PV for business but I may need to schedule a weekend vacation to see although I don't think my company would like for me to take "handouts" from vendors. I've been to PV a few times in the past on separate vacations and I know of this area, however never spent any time there.

Thats all the information I have, sorry not so useful.


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## FHBOY

Our intro to Mexico was made by borrowing our neighbor's condo at Bay View Grand in PV (Google it.) for a week - 10th floor, 3 bedrooms, guards, gates. etc etc. We did have the use of his car, so we were not totally cut off, we shopped, etc but at $400K USD it was/is a very expensive enclave and not the Mexico we found when we went exploring and found Ajijic.

Luckily (for us, not for them) they have been unable to sell it and if luck continues (badly for them, good for us) we will have a beachfront property to vacation in after we set up our home in Ajijic. [BTW-we are not mercenaries, they are our best friends here and we will miss them terribly when we emigrate, other than leaving our kids, they are a close second.)

And that is the point/difference: we consider staying at their place in PV as a vacation - it is luxurious and very, very familiar. Our move to Ajijic is to establish a home, to have an adventure, to not have the same-o same-o.

Nothing wrong in going the other way, BVG or ICON, that is why they make chocolate ice cream.


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## conorkilleen

FHBOY said:


> Our intro to Mexico was made by borrowing our neighbor's condo at Bay View Grand in PV (Google it.) for a week - 10th floor, 3 bedrooms, guards, gates. etc etc. We did have the use of his car, so we were not totally cut off, we shopped, etc but at $400K USD it was/is a very expensive enclave and not the Mexico we found when we went exploring and found Ajijic.


I agree that THAT is not the life I want (or can afford) to live in Mexico. I live in a decent house right now in Monterrey with all of the Mexi-modern efficiencies, however I love when we go for 2 weeks every summer to visit my wives parents and extended familydown on the Oaxacan coast. 

They have a small, humble, 2 room concrete house with a garage in front where her father runs his business. I sleep in a hammock with a fan on me every night (no AC) and critters constantly coming in and out of the house like they live there. Chickens, little lizards, misc little dogs, birds, and even once we had a fiddler crab make it way over to the house from the market a block away....must have escaped from one of the seafood stalls!

Thats the Mexico I love.


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## joelpb

conorkilleen said:


> I agree that THAT is not the life I want (or can afford) to live in Mexico. I live in a decent house right now in Monterrey with all of the Mexi-modern efficiencies, however I love when we go for 2 weeks every summer to visit my wives parents and extended familydown on the Oaxacan coast.
> 
> They have a small, humble, 2 room concrete house with a garage in front where her father runs his business. I sleep in a hammock with a fan on me every night (no AC) and critters constantly coming in and out of the house like they live there. Chickens, little lizards, misc little dogs, birds, and even once we had a fiddler crab make it way over to the house from the market a block away....must have escaped from one of the seafood stalls!
> 
> Thats the Mexico I love.


I wounder how long you loved it if you had to live like that all the time. Its nice to
visit and then go home.


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## conorkilleen

joelpb said:


> I wounder how long you loved it if you had to live like that all the time. Its nice to
> visit and then go home.


I grew up in poverty...and living like how they live on the coast is heaven. At least you can fish for your dinner.


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## joelpb

conorkilleen said:


> I grew up in poverty...and living like how they live on the coast is heaven. At least you can fish for your dinner.


Good for you. It makes life so much easier when you do not want so much.
Easy to please. Ah life is so good.


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## conorkilleen

joelpb said:


> Good for you. It makes life so much easier when you do not want so much.
> Easy to please. Ah life is so good.


I think its more of a wants vs needs issue. Down in the coast the needs are taken care of just as long as you don't want more than the basics.


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## Isla Verde

conorkilleen said:


> I think its more of a wants vs needs issue. Down in the coast the needs are taken care of just as long as you don't want more than the basics.


Conor, at this stage of your life, do you think you could live the way your wife's family does full-time? Would your wife want to?


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## conorkilleen

Isla Verde said:


> Conor, at this stage of your life, do you think you could live the way your wife's family does full-time? Would your wife want to?


At this stage? No. Its more about my 3 children. I need them to have the best education that we can afford, so sad to say that education down on the coast is not as good as in the more populated cities in Mexico...so the cities is where I will stay for the needs of my family . My wife does not want or need to live there full time and neither do I. I realistically can't because of my career and where I need to be geographically.

However, when the kids are gone and have their own lives, then we will move to the coast and live. Hopefully it will all still be there in 30 years. 

We love to vacation there and for me, its an escape from reality. Life moves slow and there is no timetable. The beach is 2 km away from her parents house and for 50 pesos you can drink 2 ice cold Victorias and eat fish, rice, and salad at one of the beachside comadors.


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## Souper

johnmex said:


> I never realized that living in a polish whorehouse would be so expensive...


Ouch, why so critical, just doesn't seem nice.


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## FHBOY

Unlike Conor, I did not grow up in poverty, neither was I rich. I worked hard, as we all must have, acquired a lot and at this stage of life, a lot of that is "been there, done that" and there is no thrill in it any more. 

We look forward to shed, shed, shed simplify, to not always stocking the referig and pantry to the gills, just buying what we need. You don't need to come from poverty to know what is important and that things are not always that.


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## Detailman

FHBOY said:


> Unlike Conor, I did not grow up in poverty, neither was I rich. I worked hard, as we all must have, acquired a lot and at this stage of life, a lot of that is "been there, done that" and there is no thrill in it any more.
> 
> We look forward to shed, shed, shed simplify, to not always stocking the referig and pantry to the gills, just buying what we need. You don't need to come from poverty to know what is important and that things are not always that.


:clap2:Well said and totally in sync with your experience and your current attitude. I believe that we arrive at this point in life because we can say "been there, done that." Someone that cannot say that may have a goal of "getting there and doing that."


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## conorkilleen

Not until I was about 12 or 13 did my family finally start to have a better life. My father and mother worked really hard for my brother and I and I plan to do the same for my children. I worked very hard on our farm and I know what a dollar is worth....especially when you work for it. I find that children today don't understand what hard work is. I will know that my children do. They are probably tired of hearing stories of waking up at 5am to feed the cattle and the other livestock, just in time to get showered and get on the school bus. Then when we came home, we had to clean the pens. Wintertime was the hardest. Pulling firewood from about 200 yards away from the house in 3ft of snow, mending electric fence, spreading manure over 4 acres, and then if there was time we could ice fish in our pond. I loved every minute of it.

I plan to return to my roots eventually, however with a little more money in the bank. Thats my life plan.


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## FHBOY

conorkilleen said:


> Not until I was about 12 or 13 did my family finally start to have a better life. My father and mother worked really hard for my brother and I and I plan to do the same for my children. I worked very hard on our farm and I know what a dollar is worth....especially when you work for it. I find that children today don't understand what hard work is. I will know that my children do. They are probably tired of hearing stories of waking up at 5am to feed the cattle and the other livestock, just in time to get showered and get on the school bus. Then when we came home, we had to clean the pens. Wintertime was the hardest. Pulling firewood from about 200 yards away from the house in 3ft of snow, mending electric fence, spreading manure over 4 acres, and then if there was time we could ice fish in our pond. I loved every minute of it.
> 
> I plan to return to my roots eventually, however with a little more money in the bank. Thats my life plan.


Good on you, man. Teaching our children is one of our most important jobs.
And just like of lot of us, we've done our jobs well and deserve the rewards...and I do not mean material things, they are only trappings. Our rewards are inner peace and serenity, a joy in ourselves which comes from our labors, be they kids, grand kids, a little money in the bank so you can have the necessities or the back 40, listening to the cows.


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## mickisue1

I was a single mom with four little kids, and when we didn't get child support for a year, less than a year after the divorce, I learned what poverty was. I'd never experienced it, before that.

But from that year, and the following years of catching up, I was able to learn to be grateful for a roof over my head, and enough food to feed the five of us.

The best part was that my kids learned, of necessity, the difference between want and need.

When the two youngest were in their teens, my husband and I were able to build a 2100 sq ft house. It is not fancy. But the kids all talk about our mansion.


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## Isla Verde

mickisue1 said:


> I was a single mom with four little kids, and when we didn't get child support for a year, less than a year after the divorce, I learned what poverty was. I'd never experienced it, before that.
> 
> But from that year, and the following years of catching up, I was able to learn to be grateful for a roof over my head, and enough food to feed the five of us.
> 
> The best part was that my kids learned, of necessity, the difference between want and need.
> 
> When the two youngest were in their teens, my husband and I were able to build a 2100 sq ft house. It is not fancy. But the kids all talk about our mansion.


Thanks for sharing your story with us. How wonderful that your second husband turned out to be a good guy!


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## mickisue1

Isla Verde said:


> Thanks for sharing your story with us. How wonderful that your second husband turned out to be a good guy!


I agree.

We were lucky to have found each other, and the kids to have a step dad who understands responsibility.


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## newpvrguy

Just to clarify. I started this thread seeking information about ICON in Puerto Vallarta, and the responses have been very interesting. I have lived in Puerto Vallarta for more than two years in a neighborhood called 5 de Diciembre. Since most of you that replied have never been to PV, 5 de Diciembre is a Mexican neighborhood and it has been great...otherwise I wouldn't have stayed here, and I am not living in a high-rise. Horses and donkeys are on the streets...along with the roosters and chickens and stray dogs and cats. That what this area is about. But is is also about steep hills, which is why I am looking for something on the beach where I can continue to walk to everything...just not up the steep hills.

I have lived in 4 different countries, so this is not my first "adventure" living outside of the USA. I was surprised that most of the responses have been from people living in the USA....not expats anywhere. I hope the opportunity arises for you to experience other cultures thru living abroad, ,and perhaps provide useful advice and information in the future, as it is quite different from visiting on vacation.

It seems the social commentary on this thread has been interesting to some of you.


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## Isla Verde

newpvrguy said:


> Just to clarify. I started this thread seeking information about ICON in Puerto Vallarta, and the responses have been very interesting. I have lived in Puerto Vallarta for more than two years in a neighborhood called 5 de Diciembre. Since most of you that replied have never been to PV, 5 de Diciembre is a Mexican neighborhood and it has been great...otherwise I wouldn't have stayed here, and I am not living in a high-rise. Horses and donkeys are on the streets...along with the roosters and chickens and stray dogs and cats. That what this area is about. But is is also about steep hills, which is why I am looking for something on the beach where I can continue to walk to everything...just not up the steep hills.
> 
> I have lived in 4 different countries, so this is not my first "adventure" living outside of the USA. I was surprised that most of the responses have been from people living in the USA....not expats anywhere. I hope the opportunity arises for you to experience other cultures thru living abroad, ,and perhaps provide useful advice and information in the future, as it is quite different from visiting on vacation.
> 
> It seems the social commentary on this thread has been interesting to some of you.


If your first post had given us a more complete picture of your experiences in Puerto Vallarta, the conversation might have taken a different turn. Since your posting name here is *newpvrguy, it was only logical that we would think that you had just arrived in Mexico.*


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## newpvrguy

I appreciate the comment Isla Verde. Honestly, I was merely trying to keep my request a simple one... did anyone have information on Icon. Unfortunately for me no one did.


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## FHBOY

newpvrguy said:


> I appreciate the comment Isla Verde. Honestly, I was merely trying to keep my request a simple one... did anyone have information on Icon. Unfortunately for me no one did.


I was thinking of just letting this thread die with your last comment, but as the first responder I just could not. We here on the Forum discuss a lot of things, mostly with people like me who are learning about Mexico, with very little experience in living as an expat or on Mexico. Inquires such as yours are common and the assumption is that you are also a newbie, especially considering your handle. 

This is what I read when I responded as quickly as I did. I made an assumption based on the profile of those I have been communicating with for about two years. So I was wrong, but what else was I left to assume? Why call yourself "new" when you have a lot more to contribute had you identified yourself before you posted this response that sounds so snarky.

Yes, I still live in the USA but I, too, have been to PV and I, too, have looked at homes in 5 de Deciembre neighborhood. Had I known this, and not assumed you were a "brochure buyer", perhaps my response would have been none as would those of the others here you seem to have some contempt for. My analysis of your socioeconomic status would not have changed however.

As Isla Verde said, if you had mentioned you had three years experience in PV we would not have treated the inquiry like the many that are posted here. In fact, you would have become a great resource for all due to it and you would have been deferred to for your expertise.

I am sorry I made an assumption, but the snarky last response was a bit out of line, "gotcha" is a game I don't like to play. I hope you find people who can give you the info you need.


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## makaloco

Hmmmm, I guess my take is different. "Newpvrguy" asked a simple question about a specific place that didn't require any background or explanation. It doesn't seem illogical that he expected the rest of us to either respond with info if we had experience with ICON, or not respond at all if we didn't. I didn't take his later response as a "gotcha", because his original question wasn't a "gotcha" question. Nothing wrong with the thread taking other directions, but I don't see him being responsible for it, that's all. Not everyone is comfortable with joining a forum and giving a lot of detail about himself if it's not relevant. Some forums even discourage it.


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## joaquinx

makaloco said:


> Hmmmm, I guess my take is different. "Newpvrguy" asked a simple question about a specific place that didn't require any background or explanation. It doesn't seem illogical that he expected the rest of us to either respond with info if we had experience with ICON, or not respond at all if we didn't. I didn't take his later response as a "gotcha", because his original question wasn't a "gotcha" question. Nothing wrong with the thread taking other directions, but I don't see him being responsible for it, that's all. Not everyone is comfortable with joining a forum and giving a lot of detail about himself if it's not relevant. Some forums even discourage it.


You make an excellent point, but I am wondering why it took so long for the OP to clarify his background on this subject. The OP is definitely not a troll, but there have been so many others that post questions and we respond with reasonable answers only to find that they fell on deaf ears. I and many other have hesitated to answer some questions when we feel that the question was somehow incomplete or misleading. It's question such as these that turn a forum populated by responsible people who take time to research and write answers to real questions into one that is filled with sarcasm. 

I don't belong to any forums or know of any forum that discourages users from telling a little of their background.


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## Isla Verde

joaquinx said:


> I don't belong to any forums or know of any forum that discourages users from telling a little of their background.


And if you do provide a little background before asking a question or two, you're likely to get more useful answers. I feel like this forum is as much a place to chit-chat with friends as it is a place to find answers to questions.


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## FHBOY

As with most of you, you won't find FHBOY replies on each and every thread because there are many, many that I feel I do not have anything to add to what has been posted or it is out of my knowledge or I don't have an opinion worth sharing. I do agree that a little background helps one discern and mine good info.

And yes, we are like a small community, we have learned much about each other it is what makes this experience rewarding, and maybe we do close ranks when someone new or old gets snarky, and maybe we should pull a Joe Friday and "stick to the facts ma'am", but that is not fun.

So what do I know about ICON? From their website I know this: It is big, it is pretentious, it looks expensive, it fits into a resort/cruise port environment and caters to a clientele that is not me and it appears to make no bones about keeping it's residents out of Mexican life as much as possible and it is in a commercial zone (The Hotel Zone) that is hardly residential. So there is the OP's answer which, it seems, helps him/her just as little as the rest of this thread.

Time to move on!


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## Ken Wood

FHBOY said:


> As with most of you, you won't find FHBOY replies on each and every thread because there are many, many that I feel I do not have anything to add to what has been posted or it is out of my knowledge or I don't have an opinion worth sharing. I do agree that a little background helps one discern and mine good info.
> 
> And yes, we are like a small community, we have learned much about each other it is what makes this experience rewarding, and maybe we do close ranks when someone new or old gets snarky, and maybe we should pull a Joe Friday and "stick to the facts ma'am", but that is not fun.
> 
> So what do I know about ICON? From their website I know this: It is big, it is pretentious, it looks expensive, it fits into a resort/cruise port environment and caters to a clientele that is not me and it appears to make no bones about keeping it's residents out of Mexican life as much as possible and it is in a commercial zone (The Hotel Zone) that is hardly residential. So there is the OP's answer which, it seems, helps him/her just as little as the rest of this thread.
> 
> Time to move on!


It seems almost unfair (subjective?) to post such negative comments about a place you've obviously never been to.


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## newpvrguy

Isla Verde said:


> And if you do provide a little background before asking a question or two, you're likely to get more useful answers. I feel like this forum is as much a place to chit-chat with friends as it is a place to find answers to questions.


don't worry...for all of you that have found my comments so offensive...I will provide background...but I won't post again...no problem

My post was a sincere and innocent request for information, in what I thought was a proper environment. I did not respond earlier than I did, as I was waiting for something to respond to. The first response to my post was shocking to me as it was made on false assumptions with no expeience at all in expat matters and reflecting the responders financial insecurity, rather than offering anything to respond to. Then...there was the response regarding Polish whorehouses...one which still baffles me...however, not being familiar with Polish whorehouses perhaps I just missed the point.

A number of the responses were aimed at perceived "socio economic" differences, between the responders and myself which baffle me. I live a very simple life on income of about $2500 USD a month. My current rent is about $800 USD. Hardly much to be jealous or angry about ! As I stated in a response, I NEED to get to flat ground. Someone mentioned a "troll" and I probably closely resemble one. I have been shot, run over by a car, had compression fractures of 3 vertebrae in my back....so I limp and am slighly bent...physically that is. I guess the typical "ugly American", haha. Mobility is a concern for me...and I'm trying to plan for any additional changes that may come. I not alone...I have a dog. So finding accomodation is not necessarily that easy. For the few comments about Icon, I have an offer of a 1 bedroom unit there for $1200 a month...plus utilities of course....not a princely sum...or worthy of the "socio economic" comments. Sorry, but I fail to understand why all of this personal information would have been necessary to produce a different result.

For those thinking of moving to Puerto Vallarta or Mexico in general...I can only say that to me the Mexcan people are some of the most kind, friendly, hard working, and proud people I have been fortunate enough to meet and live with. Also for those thinking of living in Mexico or anywhere....most important...try to learn the language...to whatever level...before you arrive. It shows respect, and unfortunately, we Americans demand that everyone speak American. We don't believe that it is necessary to learn another language...something which belittles us.

This is a wonderful place to live, with beauty so beyond any pictures or video many of you may have seen. 

My apologies to those who have been offended by my remarks...or my initial query. The decision to move though necessary, is quite huge for me as I would be spending a disportionate amount for housing considering my income. I hoped for some feedback in making that decision.


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## FHBOY

Ken Wood said:


> It seems almost unfair (subjective?) to post such negative comments about a place you've obviously never been to.


I cited my source: their website. Am I not aloowed to form an opinion based on what the ICON puts out as advertising? You're right - never been there, but then I stated that.


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## Detailman

newpvrguy said:


> don't worry...for all of you that have found my comments so offensive...I will provide background...but I won't post again...no problem
> 
> My post was a sincere and innocent request for information, in what I thought was a proper environment. I did not respond earlier than I did, as I was waiting for something to respond to. The first response to my post was shocking to me as it was made on false assumptions with no expeience at all in expat matters and reflecting the responders financial insecurity, rather than offering anything to respond to. Then...there was the response regarding Polish whorehouses...one which still baffles me...however, not being familiar with Polish whorehouses perhaps I just missed the point.
> 
> A number of the responses were aimed at perceived "socio economic" differences, between the responders and myself which baffle me. I live a very simple life on income of about $2500 USD a month. My current rent is about $800 USD. Hardly much to be jealous or angry about ! As I stated in a response, I NEED to get to flat ground. Someone mentioned a "troll" and I probably closely resemble one. I have been shot, run over by a car, had compression fractures of 3 vertebrae in my back....so I limp and am slighly bent...physically that is. I guess the typical "ugly American", haha. Mobility is a concern for me...and I'm trying to plan for any additional changes that may come. I not alone...I have a dog. So finding accomodation is not necessarily that easy. For the few comments about Icon, I have an offer of a 1 bedroom unit there for $1200 a month...plus utilities of course....not a princely sum...or worthy of the "socio economic" comments. Sorry, but I fail to understand why all of this personal information would have been necessary to produce a different result.
> 
> For those thinking of moving to Puerto Vallarta or Mexico in general...I can only say that to me the Mexcan people are some of the most kind, friendly, hard working, and proud people I have been fortunate enough to meet and live with. Also for those thinking of living in Mexico or anywhere....most important...try to learn the language...to whatever level...before you arrive. It shows respect, and unfortunately, we Americans demand that everyone speak American. We don't believe that it is necessary to learn another language...something which belittles us.
> 
> This is a wonderful place to live, with beauty so beyond any pictures or video many of you may have seen.
> 
> My apologies to those who have been offended by my remarks...or my initial query. The decision to move though necessary, is quite huge for me as I would be spending a disportionate amount for housing considering my income. I hoped for some feedback in making that decision.


I will probably be shot down for this but so what. I do not feel you have anything to apologize for.

Your question was straightforward. It is "others" that assumed certain things and come on folks – you all learned somewhere in school about those that "ASSUME" - you make an ass out of ....... 

Personally, I found the comment about the Polish whorehouse offensive and so would some of my Polish friends. (I am not Polish - I was born in Canada from an English/Scot ancestry). I could not understand its rationale. :confused2:

I reread one of your answers a few comments back (that was replied to and attacked) and found nothing "snarky" about it. I truly wondered if some of my fellow forum members had their toast burned that morning or their coffee served cold (had to be some reason they were not their usual personalities) and the snarky answers received a number of "likes" – what’s that about fellow forum members? (How many people can all have their toast burned the same morning??) 

I would hope that you get the answers (I am not in a position to give them on PV) you are looking for and I hope that any move you make will make your residence in Mexico more accommodating to your circumstances.

I would also hope that you would overlook some of the comments that were made in ignorance and decide to stay on this forum and contribute whatever you can. I believe that the responses you received are neither a true representation of this forum or of the underlying helpful qualities of some that posted.

(Now they can focus any pent up animosity towards me.) :boxing:


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## newpvrguy

FHBOY said:


> I cited my source: their website. Am I not aloowed to form an opinion based on what the ICON puts out as advertising? You're right - never been there, but then I stated that.


Sorry, but your comments only included your feelings about being the "have not" of the "have vs. have not" equation. Didn't see the website pointing to people from Baltimore. My sister lives in Laurel, Md. She would be highly offended.


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## newpvrguy

Detailman said:


> I will probably be shot down for this but so what. I do not feel you have anything to apologize for.
> 
> Your question was straightforward. It is "others" that assumed certain things and come on folks – you all learned somewhere in school about those that "ASSUME" - you make an ass out of .......
> 
> Personally, I found the comment about the Polish whorehouse offensive and so would some of my Polish friends. (I am not Polish - I was born in Canada from an English/Scot ancestry). I could not understand its rationale. :confused2:
> 
> I reread one of your answers a few comments back (that was replied to and attacked) and found nothing "snarky" about it. I truly wondered if some of my fellow forum members had their toast burned that morning or their coffee served cold (had to be some reason they were not their usual personalities) and the snarky answers received a number of "likes" – what’s that about fellow forum members? (How many people can all have their toast burned the same morning??)
> 
> I would hope that you get the answers (I am not in a position to give them on PV) you are looking for and I hope that any move you make will make your residence in Mexico more accommodating to your circumstances.
> 
> I would also hope that you would overlook some of the comments that were made in ignorance and decide to stay on this forum and contribute whatever you can. I believe that the responses you received are neither a true representation of this forum or of the underlying helpful qualities of some that posted.
> 
> (Now they can focus any pent up animosity towards me.) :boxing:


Thank you Detailman. Nice to hear something positive as I disappear into the night


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## Detailman

newpvrguy said:


> Thank you Detailman. Nice to hear something positive as I disappear into the night


I can understand how you feel. Same thing happened to me shortly after I joined (but on a much more emotional subject). I told everyone that I was disappearing into my underground bunker and would not raise my head again.

I did and I hope you do to. This forum has a lot to offer.

First impressions are important but sometimes they can be off-base.

Follow the forum and contribute when you feel you have worthy comment or opinion to offer. Avoid commenting just to be a daily contributor – that is a mistake!!!


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## Ken Wood

FHBOY said:


> I cited my source: their website. Am I not aloowed to form an opinion based on what the ICON puts out as advertising? You're right - never been there, but then I stated that.


Are you allowed to? Sure, but why would you want to? Someone who's been there could provide a much more objective answer. Your words read out almost as though you were angry and shouting.


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## FHBOY

*An Apology*

It seems in the light of day and after re-reading what I posted, I was out of line. When I detach myself as the author, and just act as the reader, the only "snarkiness" was mine defending an assumption.

I hope that my actions does not lose us a potential source of PV information. From now on, when asked for an opinion on something I know absolutely nothing first hand about, I will publish a disclaimer or refrain.


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## Detailman

FHBOY said:


> It seems in the light of day and after re-reading what I posted, I was out of line. When I detach myself as the author, and just act as the reader, the only "snarkiness" was mine defending an assumption.
> 
> I hope that my actions does not lose us a potential source of PV information. From now on, when asked for an opinion on something I know absolutely nothing first hand about, I will publish a disclaimer or refrain.


That is the FHBoy I like and respect. It takes a big man to admit mistakes and apologize. If more people would do that the world would be a much nicer place to live in and we would all be much happier.

:clap2:


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## Souper

FHboy, I also appreciate your apology, your acknowledgement of your misstatements says a great deal about your character. 

For me, when reading through the thread I see a distain for “nice” things. I understand not everyone wants to live in a high rise in Vallarta, but to rudely call it a “polish whorehouse” or superficial seems unnecessary . Would such remarks be made for a posting about a very simple house? Why is it okay to make snarky remarks about something that appears to be expensive and contemporary, is any one choice more “Mexican”?

Who are we readers of this forum to decide what constitutes a “Mexican” experience for another. How does one determine what personal Mexican experience is real, we see Mexicans living very different lifestyles, which one is right? I do know many Mexicans own condos in Vallarta like the ones at ICON, either as primary residences or weekend getaways, is their experience not real or are they too removed from the “real Mexico”? 

I read this forum daily, rarely posting, but enjoy all the information I’ve gathered. I’m saddened by the habit of pitting one person’s choice against another, there is no right or wrong place to live. True happiness is contentment in our own circumstances, with this we enjoy others peoples choices, whether or not we want it for ourselves.


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## FHBOY

*"Living Mexican"*



Souper said:


> FHboy, I also appreciate your apology, your acknowledgement of your misstatements says a great deal about your character... with this we enjoy others peoples choices, whether or not we want it for ourselves.


You bring up a point that in the two years we have been considering our emigration to Mexico has sort of nagged at me, what is "living Mexican"? Some have said that our move to Ajijic is not "living Mexican" because it is described as a ****** ghetto [not my words!]. Well, I reject that. 

Some will say, as I did unfairly, that living in ICON or BVG or such in PV is not "living Mexican". 

It comes down to this: Who am I (or anyone) for that matter to be the ultimate authority on what you feel is "living Mexican"? I have no right to define it for you because I am not you and not in charge of your feelings or choices. I forgot a basic tenet of my life: My rights end where your nose begins. And that includes my right to judge your lifestyle. I can disagree with it and not make the same choice as you, but I have no right to say it is not correct or even just correct for you. 

You see, in the end it all comes down to the individual and what they want out of their "living Mexican" experience. There is a part of me that would like the life depicted in the ICON website, or what we experienced at BVG when we stayed there, it is luxurious and very NOB (I mean BVG - since I have been there) and we enjoyed it, very much. But how soon would we tire of moving what we see as our NOB lifestyle to another city? Where would the adventure be in that? Why go all the way to another country, another culture to do it? Isn't that what (God forbid) Miami is for? (substitute any USA city - in this homogenized country, they are basically all the same.)

Our feeling was that to make such a life change move, the reasons had to be for adventure (amongst others), but not too much. Ajijic is enough of an adventure for now, new type pf housing, new language, new day-to-day culture, new way to live, but with the comfort of the familiar.

In reality by living in 5 de Diceimbre, NEWPVGUY has had a more "living Mexican" experience than probably we will have, we don't have any burros or horses on the street where our home in Mexico is. You get what I mean.


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## kcowan

The are varying types of living Mexican, and a ****** enclave protects your from the experience of living Mexican daily. Nothing wrong with that. Just recognize that many aspects of life in Mexico are not being experienced. In PV, we have all types of the experience. We are in an all-Mexican condo with 6 owners. But our interaction with the other owners has dropped since a Mexican couple has split up. The wife has moved to Chapala with the daughter to be with her folks. The other owners are working and have never been approachable. They are pleasant but not friends.

We have squatters that live next door and have been invited to their birthday parties. We have been to our maid's wedding. Service at Santa Cruz church and then a reception in Pitalllal.


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## Mexicodrifter

I am with FHBOY on this one. Don´t tell me wht my experience is. I have lived in a number of different towns and cities in Mexico and each one has been a different way of life. From Big city to small pueblo is as different as night and day and yet very much the same.

Why would anyone want to tread on anothers experience of life. Leave mine alone, please.


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## FHBOY

kcowan said:


> The are varying types of living Mexican,.. Service at Santa Cruz church and then a reception in Pitalllal.


And again, and this is where I went wrong, what I or anyone else wants to experience is his/her own choice. If I do not want the Living Mexican experience of eating at a roadside stand, then that is my choice. Someone can say, "well, that is not the truly Living Mexican, real Mexicans eat at roadside stands" and they'd be right from their POV - for themselves, but no for me. Others could say, "If you only shop at Wal-Mart, Home Depot, etc etc in Mexico, then you are not having a true Living Mexican shopping experience." Again, true from their POV, but that is my choice.

All of the experiences we choose in life are by and large by our own free will. My Living Mexican experience will be the life of Ajijic. It is mine. Yours is living at an ICON like development, that is your Living Mexican experience.

What is important is that we have a place, like here, to share our different Living Mexican experiences that may open up a new window into a possibility we may not have thought about [which is how we decided to move to Ajijic - but that's a longer story.] -

It also teaches about sponge mops


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## RVGRINGO

.....and maybe even our favorite taco stand on the Chapala plaza.


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## kcowan

One thing that people overlook is that Ikon type towers are 30% Mexican.


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## FHBOY

RVGRINGO said:


> .....and maybe even our favorite taco stand on the Chapala plaza.


RV: if it is a recommendation from you then make sure we get together there in August, deal? You weren't wrong about Delicia.


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## Souper

FHBOY said:


> You bring up a point that in the two years we have been considering our emigration to Mexico has sort of nagged at me, what is "living Mexican"? Some have said that our move to Ajijic is not "living Mexican" because it is described as a ****** ghetto [not my words!]. Well, I reject that.


I turn around the question to what is "living American".

Do Americans all live the same, like the same things? Certainly not. But does anyone think they are not acting American.

Look at all the foreign immigrants to the USA who want some of their old home. I welcome all the interesting restaurants they give others. 

If one embraces much of their new home, who can expect anyone to love everything about any one place or lifestyle.


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## FHBOY

Souper said:


> I turn around the question to what is "living American"...who can expect anyone to love everything about any one place or lifestyle.


That is a great analogy, who amongst us have the same "Living USA (Canada)" experience. We have all delved into out native culture as far as we want, as far as we are comfortable with. Some live in suburbs, others are center city dwellers, same even still live on farms, or in motor home enclaves - yet no one here would say that these are not "Living USA (Canada)", and thank goodness for that, what a bore it would be is "Living _______" was all the same.

But, using the same logic and the recent immigrant backlash in the USA, doesn't "Living Mexican" include learning the language, much as some scream that "foreigners" in the USA must learn and use English and do not? It is hard to imagine that type of mentality in Mexico towards those who can't speak Spanish. Yet I suppose that is the cost of the "****** tax" I hear about, which should serve as somewhat of an incentive to learn the language, if only for a possible minor economic leg up. [I've left out the courtesy issue, the respect of others issue concerning this - yet it is of equal importance.]

You see, this "living ______" opens up not a window into Mexico, but a mirror of ourselves, collectively, which is a new topic, I suppose. 

Sorry about the lecture, but it is Thursday morning and I really (  ) have not much on my agenda.


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## joelpb

FHBOY said:


> That is a great analogy, who amongst us have the same "Living USA (Canada)" experience. We have all delved into out native culture as far as we want, as far as we are comfortable with. Some live in suburbs, others are center city dwellers, same even still live on farms, or in motor home enclaves - yet no one here would say that these are not "Living USA (Canada)", and thank goodness for that, what a bore it would be is "Living _______" was all the same.
> 
> But, using the same logic and the recent immigrant backlash in the USA, doesn't "Living Mexican" include learning the language, much as some scream that "foreigners" in the USA must learn and use English and do not? It is hard to imagine that type of mentality in Mexico towards those who can't speak Spanish. Yet I suppose that is the cost of the "****** tax" I hear about, which should serve as somewhat of an incentive to learn the language, if only for a possible minor economic leg up. [I've left out the courtesy issue, the respect of others issue concerning this - yet it is of equal importance.]
> 
> You see, this "living ______" opens up not a window into Mexico, but a mirror of ourselves, collectively, which is a new topic, I suppose.
> 
> Sorry about the lecture, but it is Thursday morning and I really (  ) have not much on my agenda.


I do not think it is a back lash per say. People do not like illegales. You are a crook
right off. Most people do not like these people getting a free pass to live in the USA.

I have to do a lot and pay a lot of money to get my wife where she can live in the
USA. I think it is a crime the way they treat the legal people. If a baby is born from
a illegal person in the USA they become a citizen. What kind of law is that. They
sneak across the border and go to a hospital and get free medical and the baby
becomes a citizen. But they make it so hard on people that do it the right way.

Mexicans that are legal are not looked on as bad just the illegals and they make
it bad for the good ones.

No illegal should ever be given a USA citizen ship. No amastay. I believe they
should be able to work but never allowed to vote.


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## Souper

joelpb, I don't this this subject is meant to discuss the issue of ILLEGAL immigration regardless of country. However I do understand your frustration trying to bring your wife here legally.


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## Souper

FHBOY, I do believe every immigrant should learn the native language. I've still not done a good job of learning Spanish, but not for the lack of trying.
It is obviously difficult to experience much of any society when doesn't know the local language.
I understand some immigrants to the USA did so against their will and have no desire to learn English. I'm speaking of some Vietnamese immigrants and other elderly people that came with family but have no desire to "experience" the USA. Thinking of the ethnic communities, I'm from Southern California, there are many highly populated areas where English is not the common language. Usually the younger ones integrate but the elderly don't.


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## mickisue1

Joel, if you are against something, you should learn to spell it. It's amnesty.

And one of the ways that all of us in the entire world got to wherever we may be at the moment is by immigration. There are a handful, maybe, of humans who live in sub Saharan Africa, who can say that they are the descendants of the first people to live there.

Ever since a group of Neanderthals fought to keep a different group from taking their cave, there have been "laws" in place to limit or prevent migration into or out of an area. The South, under Jim Crow, made it a crime in many areas for black people to move to the North.

But people will go, even at great risk to themselves, to find a better life. To get this a little more on topic, people from other parts of the Americas and even Europe are migrating to MX in order to have a better life.

Just as the Neanderthals who wanted to be safer, in an area of many caves, had to learn to live with their neighbors, so do migrants to MX need to learn to live in a different country with different social customs, different language and different laws.


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## FHBOY

Souper said:


> FHBOY, I do believe every immigrant should learn the native language. I've still not done a good job of learning Spanish, but not for the lack of trying...Usually the younger ones integrate but the elderly don't.


Joelpb: As the descendants of people from Eastern Europe who came in the late 19th and early 20th century, through legal channels, I understand your frustration, but we are not discussing immigration, but integration into a host society.

On this point we seem to be in agreement, if you move there, learn the language as best you can, or at least make the attempt. My ancestors and many of all of our ancestors did it, it was a matter of pride/shame if you learned/did not learn English, and if you didn't, your kids had to. It was how you became an American (I can't speak about Canada, don't know anything). I realize that the trend recently seems not as it was then, with more tolerance for non-English speakers. 
I am enough of a Conservative (god forbid) to agree with the idea that if you have chosen to make the USA your home, you need to learn, or make and attempt to learn, English. BUT...the same goes for English speakers who chooses to move to any other country where the language is different

These European refugees I spoke about, the Irish, the Germans the Russians etc, or the Chinese who came the California, and yes Latinos who came north in the 19th and early 20th century, came to America for a new life, to start a new family and for opportunity. 

But the situation then is not the situation most of us on the Forum are in now. Most of us here have gone/will be going to Mexico not because we have to in order to survive, but because we want to. My point is it makes no difference, it is still incumbent on the guest to learn and acculturate into their host society to the best of their ability and not expect any quarter if they make it obvious they are not. (Just my rant, here, sorry)


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## kcowan

You need to think about living in Mexico for many years as a snowbird or immigrant and then find the government of the day makes you illegal and you must move out. That is how Mexicans are treated in the US. Many have worked there for years. Many have children that are American. It is a tough problem.

Imagine if every law on the books in Mexico were suddenly enforced vigorously!:spit:


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## Isla Verde

kcowan said:


> You need to think about living in Mexico for many years as a snowbird or immigrant and then find the government of the day makes you illegal and you must move out. That is how Mexicans are treated in the US. Many have worked there for years. Many have children that are American. It is a tough problem.
> 
> Imagine if every law on the books in Mexico were suddenly enforced vigorously!:spit:


I don't see that happening to me. I have followed all the laws and rules and live here legally. Many of the Mexicans who've lived for years in the US have done so illegally and must have realized that they could be deported at some time in the future. It is a tough problem, especially for children who were brought to the US at an early age, have done well in school, and now find their prospects for a bright future quite uncertain due to their illegal status.


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## RVGRINGO

So many forget that it has been a very short time since English was not the 'native language' west of the Mississippi River and south of Oregon. In that area, there were many other indigenous languages and the national language of the area; Spanish! Since 1848 and the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, after the USA took 52% of Mexico, the continuation of Mexican culture, which includes language, is legally protected in the USA. Note that documents, instructions, etc. are usually in Spanish and English, not French or other nearby languages. Now you know the reason & why one cannot insist that Mexican Americans (natives of the USA before we were) or Mexican immigrants "learn English" if they choose not to do so. There are a lot of areas of 'The Southwest' where English is definitely not the native language. There are also indigenous 'nations' within the USA, and some which straddle the northern and southern borders, where other native languages are spoken and they have independent jurisdictions.


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## Souper

RVGRINGO said:


> So many forget that it has been a very short time since English was not the 'native language' west of the Mississippi River and south of Oregon. In that area, there were many other indigenous languages and the national language of the area; Spanish! Since 1848 and the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, after the USA took 52% of Mexico, the continuation of Mexican culture, which includes language, is legally protected in the USA. Note that documents, instructions, etc. are usually in Spanish and English, not French or other nearby languages. Now you know the reason & why one cannot insist that Mexican Americans (natives of the USA before we were) or Mexican immigrants "learn English" if they choose not to do so. There are a lot of areas of 'The Southwest' where English is definitely not the native language. There are also indigenous 'nations' within the USA, and some which straddle the northern and southern borders, where other native languages are spoken and they have independent jurisdictions.


I don't think anyone has "insisted" anyone living in the USA learn English, it was noted learning the common language helps one transition into the life of the adopted country. 
I do understand (probably others also)there are small pockets in the USA (and Mexico) where languages other than English and Spanish are common, growing up in Southern California, I am well aware of local tribal lands. I do not believe anyone is ignorant of this fact, but it doesn't seem relevant to this discussion.


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## mickisue1

RVGRINGO said:


> So many forget that it has been a very short time since English was not the 'native language' west of the Mississippi River and south of Oregon. In that area, there were many other indigenous languages and the national language of the area; Spanish! Since 1848 and the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, after the USA took 52% of Mexico, the continuation of Mexican culture, which includes language, is legally protected in the USA. Note that documents, instructions, etc. are usually in Spanish and English, not French or other nearby languages. Now you know the reason & why one cannot insist that Mexican Americans (natives of the USA before we were) or Mexican immigrants "learn English" if they choose not to do so. There are a lot of areas of 'The Southwest' where English is definitely not the native language. There are also indigenous 'nations' within the USA, and some which straddle the northern and southern borders, where other native languages are spoken and they have independent jurisdictions.


Even in isolated pockets, usually rural or small town, other languages became the "official" language of the area.

My dad had a foreman who was born in a small town in MN in the 19-teens. He started life speaking Norwegian, and the schools were taught in that language, the pastor preached on Sunday in that language. It wasn't till the early 1920's, when there was an influx of Germans to rural MN that they were forced to learn English as the only common language.


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## Isla Verde

I believe there was a time before the American Revolution that both German and English were "official" languages in Pennsylvania.


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## joelpb

RVGRINGO said:


> So many forget that it has been a very short time since English was not the 'native language' west of the Mississippi River and south of Oregon. In that area, there were many other indigenous languages and the national language of the area; Spanish! Since 1848 and the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, after the USA took 52% of Mexico, the continuation of Mexican culture, which includes language, is legally protected in the USA. Note that documents, instructions, etc. are usually in Spanish and English, not French or other nearby languages. Now you know the reason & why one cannot insist that Mexican Americans (natives of the USA before we were) or Mexican immigrants "learn English" if they choose not to do so. There are a lot of areas of 'The Southwest' where English is definitely not the native language. There are also indigenous 'nations' within the USA, and some which straddle the northern and southern borders, where other native languages are spoken and they have independent jurisdictions.


So I guess the indians that the spanish beat into submission and put into slavery do not
count. They were here before the spanish. I agree they do not have to learn english
but this makes them very limited in there choices of what to do in life. I hate the term
mexican american or italian american or any of them. You are either and american or
not. In mexico are you a american mexican or what? These terms are divisive and 
cause people to look at you different. Are there aztec mexicans?


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## kcowan

RVGRINGO said:


> So many forget that it has been a very short time since English was not the 'native language' west of the Mississippi River and south of Oregon. In that area, there were many other indigenous languages and the national language of the area; Spanish! Since 1848 and the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, after the USA took 52% of Mexico, the continuation of Mexican culture, which includes language, is legally protected in the USA. Note that documents, instructions, etc. are usually in Spanish and English, not French or other nearby languages. Now you know the reason & why one cannot insist that Mexican Americans (natives of the USA before we were) or Mexican immigrants "learn English" if they choose not to do so. There are a lot of areas of 'The Southwest' where English is definitely not the native language. There are also indigenous 'nations' within the USA, and some which straddle the northern and southern borders, where other native languages are spoken and they have independent jurisdictions.


The other thing is that this land acquisition (grab) from Mexico split many families with half becoming naturalized Americans, and the other illegal immigrants. Americans seem to have a short memory about this historical fact. It is like if you suddenly found that any family in Washington state was now Canadian.

So Mexicans will always have a special status in the US. Even presidential hopeful Romney has Mexican roots.


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## FHBOY

Joelpb's comment is very important. I never considered myself anything but an American, my family did not hyphenate. We were Americans who practiced a religion. Period. We were Caucasians who were Americans.

This idea of hyphenated Americans must have served some positive purpose but it seems as though it is more of a negative one.

I have often wondered if countries other than the USA have as many hyphenated people: I know about French-Canadians, but are the Afro-Francos, or German-Spainards, or Puerto Rican-Italians? Seems to me outside the USA, people are people, and they then have a descent history but there is no one trying to classify them.

Or am I just being naive?

PS: RV, those Mexican history tapes really seem to be paying off ! ! !


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## Souper

joelpb said:


> So I guess the indians that the spanish beat into submission and put into slavery do not
> count. They were here before the spanish. I agree they do not have to learn english
> but this makes them very limited in there choices of what to do in life. I hate the term
> mexican american or italian american or any of them. You are either and american or
> not. In mexico are you a american mexican or what? These terms are divisive and
> cause people to look at you different. Are there aztec mexicans?


I thought of this on the thread about "racial attitudes" the OP referred to a friend as black, I've heard some say this is a negative term, saying people are not really black or white, therefore the term is insulting. What do you call someone in Mexico who was an "African American" in the USA, do they become African Mexican? Do you lose the American or is it just added to? The correct term seems to change every few years.

One friend after hearing the term "Mexican" used in a negative way for years in the USA, is uncomfortable calling people in Mexico, Mexican. Mexican is a common term in California for anyone looking Hispanic. I keep telling him people in Mexico are Mexican, Spanish is their language. I also hear the term Hispanic, when describing only Mexican people, this term seems too broad for discussing only Mexican people. 

I do agree, we should enjoy our roots, but not let them divide us.

I very much appreciative being born in the USA, enjoying all it has to offer, my choice to live in Mexico has nothing to do with my love for the USA, I enjoy both my love for the USA, my country of birth and my adopted country of Mexico. I don't need to choose only one country to enjoy.


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## joelpb

Souper said:


> I thought of this on the thread about "racial attitudes" the OP referred to a friend as black, I've heard some say this is a negative term, saying people are not really black or white, therefore the term is insulting. What do you call someone in Mexico who was an "African American" in the USA, do they become African Mexican? Do you lose the American or is it just added to? The correct term seems to change every few years.
> 
> One friend after hearing the term "Mexican" used in a negative way for years in the USA, is uncomfortable calling people in Mexico, Mexican. Mexican is a common term in California for anyone looking Hispanic. I keep telling him people in Mexico are Mexican, Spanish is their language. I also hear the term Hispanic, when describing only Mexican people, this term seems too broad for discussing only Mexican people.
> 
> I do agree, we should enjoy our roots, but not let them divide us.
> 
> I very much appreciative being born in the USA, enjoying all it has to offer, my choice to live in Mexico has nothing to do with my love for the USA, I enjoy both my love for the USA, my country of birth and my adopted country of Mexico. I don't need to choose only one country to enjoy.


You said it so very good. I agree with all you say.


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## Souper

FHBOY said:


> Seems to me outside the USA, people are people, and they then have a descent history but there is no one trying to classify them.
> 
> Or am I just being naive?


It appears from my limited world experience, Americans do for the most part, treat others with more respect for equality than many other countries. I know I learned Abe's speech in grade school, equality was taught to me continually. I don't believe this is a value in many other countries. 

Discrimination is legal in other countries, yes, I know, discrimination exists in the USA, but blatant discrimination is not legal nor socially acceptable. I've seen in Mexico the "upper crust" Spanish Mexicans from the cities treat the dark Indian Mexicans rudely. At first it was surprising to me to see people accept rude treatment, but I seen it enough to know people outside the USA don't "treat people as people". 

I do think it is naive to not expect or to not think others classify you. 

Some of it, I think, is human nature, not always good, but humans everywhere (animals too) usually look to see how or where they fit in.


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## kcowan

The class structure in Mexico is deeply-rooted. The Spanish conquerors kept the indigenous people down. I am reading a book about Villa-Zapata and it tells stories about the revolution of 1910 and the various factions that lead to it. It is fascinating. The only reason that the US was able to "grab" so much Mexican territory is that the Mexicans were too divided to present a unified front. I will never think the same about the territories south of Oklahoma and Oregon...


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## Souper

kcowan said:


> The class structure in Mexico is deeply-rooted. The Spanish conquerors kept the indigenous people down. I am reading a book about Villa-Zapata and it tells stories about the revolution of 1910 and the various factions that lead to it. It is fascinating. The only reason that the US was able to "grab" so much Mexican territory is that the Mexicans were too divided to present a unified front. I will never think the same about the territories south of Oklahoma and Oregon...


I wish I could remember the titles of the few books I read on Mexico, when we first moved to Mexico we naively thought with our Americans minds, assuming we were dealing with others with the same mindset, a friend suggested we read and learn more about the culture of our new home. It really did help us to understand much of what we thought was, wasn't for our new home.

I think class structure is deeply-rooted in many areas of the world, the USA is relatively young and most everyone is from somewhere else, of course there are those that can trace back to the Mayflower...  

Another thing I see Americans thinking all Spanish speaking immigrants have a common bond. I sure don't see it


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## FHBOY

...and they sure don't. Learned over the years that Domincans are very different from Mexicans who are different from Puerto Ricans, who are different than Guatemalans, etc. It is like saying that New Yorkers are the same a Podunk, Iowans, are the same as Denverites and are the same as people fro LaLa Land.


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