# Seeing conflicting advice on autonomo vs. non-lucrative visa for residency



## src6 (Aug 15, 2016)

We are currently in the USA, but my wife and I plan to move to the Torre del Mar area next year. I'm a software developer/consultant and I will continue to work remotely for my current employer (a US only company). I've seen conflicting advice on how to approach the residency visa.

It seems to me that I should get a self-employed visa/autonomo, but several sites have mentioned taking the non-lucrative visa since I won't be working for any Spanish (or even European) clients.

Either way I go, I'll have plenty of savings/income to meet the minimum requirements for myself and my wife. I am concerned that if I go non-lucrative and my employment situation changes it may be difficult to transition to a self-employed visa. I would hope to continue to work for US based companies rather than trying to find a Spanish employer should that happen.

The current plan is to set up a US based company of my own which will bill my current employer, and then I will draw funds from the new company. My biggest concern with this and the self-employment visa is paying more taxes than necessary, as both the US company and I personally will be taxable entities. I understand my income will be taxed no matter what, but I'm not clear on the details yet.

If anyone knows of better alternatives, or has some solid advice, it would be most welcome. I do expect to work with an accountant and lawyer, but wanted to get a read on the situation if possible. Sorry if this is a common question, but I wasn't able to find anything on point in my browsing of the forums.


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## kdsb (May 3, 2015)

We are currently living in Spain on non lucrative visas and are in a similar situation, since my husband is working remotely. I have heard of other people having trouble with different consulates, but our consulate (Boston) asked to see evidence of his consistent income during our time away. We provided a letter from his employer and that was sufficient. They seemed to care much more about this than our bank statements, which far exceeded the minimum requirements.

I don't quite understand your question about your work situation changing. Once you have the visa you are set for a year, so even if you started working for another company there is no way they would know. If you wanted to renew after a year you may have to provide the same sort of documentation. I think the only change would be if you wanted to work for a Spanish company, but my understanding is that the company would then assist you in the visa process.

Let me know if you have any other questions. It was quite a process but well worth it!


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## src6 (Aug 15, 2016)

Thanks for the information. Regarding the "work situation changing", if my arrangement with my current employer ended, I would be looking for clients wherever I could find them. Ideally they would be US-based, but I couldn't guarantee it. If I had to start working for a Spanish company, I'm not sure how easy it would be to transition to a self-employment visa from non-lucrative.

We plan for the move to be permanent, and we'll be working with the Miami consulate when we apply for our visas.


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## kdsb (May 3, 2015)

I don't really know much about the self-employment visa, but my guess is it wouldn't be appropriate for either situation. You aren't self employed if you are working for a US company, nor are you self employed if a Spanish company ends up hiring you at a later point. Is the nature of your work more freelancing vs. a permanent salary?


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## src6 (Aug 15, 2016)

It's currently permanent salary, but transitioning to freelance. My current employer will become my client. While I may take on some side projects from others, I don't expect to do much of that while our relationship is stable. 

I would expect to be a contractor rather than an employee for any future employers (clients, actually). While I wouldn't refuse to consider a salaried position, I feel that the "work visa" you get from a Spanish employer is more of a trap than a positive. You become dependent on that one employer, and as a foreign worker I would be at a serious disadvantage finding a new position if that employment ended. With a self-employment visa, at least I can tap into savings or investments to meet the "income" requirements if necessary. There's also the possibility of having the US company I establish issue the letter stating the income it will be paying me, but I think that's bordering on some tricky territory.

Perhaps I'm inferring too much difficulty transitioning from one type of visa to another, but having heard all the nightmare stories of the whimsical bureaucracy involved, I am wary of getting myself in a bad situation, especially since we do want to the move to be permanent.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

It's only recently that we've seen non-lucrative visas issued to those working remotely. Some consulates expect independent means or income, not reliant on employment, & take the stance that non-lucrative means no work - not even remote work.


I'm not sure what you mean by 'self-employment visa'. Do you mean the 'investment visa'? If so you have to invest 500,000 € in order to secure one.

You cannot change visas once here. On a non-lucrative visa based upon income from an employer outside Spain, it wouldn't matter if the employer changed, as long as it was outside Spain.

You wouldn't be able to work for an employer IN Spain though. For that you'd need a different visa, which the employer would apply for. During the application process you would almost certainly have to return to the US (possibly unless you were still employed by a company outside Spain at the time) - & unless the company could prove that no EU citizen is available to fill the position, it's highly unlikely that a visa would be issued.


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## src6 (Aug 15, 2016)

I may have muddied the waters a bit. 

I intend to set up a US company which will bill my clients, wherever they are. I will either draw a salary (self-employment) or a stipend (non-lucrative) from this company. I will have enough in savings from selling everything to "prove" reasonable income for at least 5 years, probably more, and will be collecting at least my current salary as billable work for my current employer. I won't, however, have the funds to get get an investment visa.

I suspect that the references I'm seeing for "self-employment" visas are actually just work visas as an autonomo, but I'm not positive. It's just a term I've seen used a lot in discussions, so at the moment I'm not completely clear on it. Is it even possible to get a work visa as an autonomo, or do they require a Spanish employer?

At this point, I'm unclear of the advantages/disadvantages of either choice. The US company will have to pay taxes on its income. If it pays me salary, I will be paying US employment/social security taxes, which I can deduct from my Spanish taxes. If I draw a stipend, I will have to pay more Spanish tax, but less US tax, although I still will pay the US social security taxes. 

The only real downside I see of the non-lucrative visa is the total inability to work for anyone in Spain should I need to find other clients. Since Spain is going to be my permanent residence, I suspect that I will have opportunities to at least do side jobs there, which I would have to avoid with a non-lucrative visa.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

src6 said:


> I may have muddied the waters a bit.
> 
> I intend to set up a US company which will bill my clients, wherever they are. I will either draw a salary (self-employment) or a stipend (non-lucrative) from this company. I will have enough in savings from selling everything to "prove" reasonable income for at least 5 years, probably more, and will be collecting at least my current salary as billable work for my current employer. I won't, however, have the funds to get get an investment visa.
> 
> ...


The most you will get is a one year visa, which can be renewed several times as long as conditions are met. Once you have been here 5 years, you are a 'permanent resident'

I've never heard of anyone obtaining a visa to be self-employed - though on some consulate websites it mentions it - though it doesn't give any info as to the value of the requirement for funds. That of course doesn't mean that no-one has ever done it!


Your best bet - & really the only place to get definitive information since they would be issuing any visa - is the Spanish Consulate to which you have to apply. They will tell you your options & exactly what you have to do to fulfil the conditions.


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## src6 (Aug 15, 2016)

Thanks xabiachica. I was searching for some clarity before I get to the consulate, but considering the uneven requirements I'm going to have to embrace uncertainty. 

I can't work with the consulate yet - we are going to move to Florida for tax purposes in the next few months, at which time we will start the visa process in Miami. I don't want to contact our current consulate just to keep away from more bureaucratic confusion.

I am aware that for the first 5 years it will be a year-by-year effort. That's one of the reasons I targeted 5 years of income as my savings target. 

I just worry about not having a clear plan before I approach the consulate. I don't want to provide a reason for them to reject us out of hand by giving them the wrong impression when trying to figure out how to shoe-horn my situation into a residence visa. The Spanish government seems to be slow in catching up to the idea of a global, mobile economy.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

src6 said:


> Thanks xabiachica. I was searching for some clarity before I get to the consulate, but considering the uneven requirements I'm going to have to embrace uncertainty.
> 
> I can't work with the consulate yet - we are going to move to Florida for tax purposes in the next few months, at which time we will start the visa process in Miami. I don't want to contact our current consulate just to keep away from more bureaucratic confusion.
> 
> ...


You can ask for info. from the consulate without committing yourself. But yes, if you'll be living in Florida when you apply, wait until you're there.

Shoe-horning yourself in won't work - you will have to show that you properly meet their requirements. They won't reject you if you do - but they will if they have any reason to suspect that the info isn't quite genuine

The Spanish govt. is simply protecting what employment there is for its citizens. We have around 25% unemployment - more in some areas, & more like 40% for under 25s.

It probably won't make you feel any better, but it's _at least_ as difficult for an EU citizen to move to the US. If not more difficult.


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## src6 (Aug 15, 2016)

I fully understand and sympathise with the employment situation over there. The unemployment rate isn't sustainable, and I really hope it improves for them. Unfortunately, their visa requirements weren't tailored for someone in my situation, but I'm hopeful that they can see the advantage of having the benefit of taxing my income, plus all of the economic activity we will generate while there. Every little bit counts.

We are "betting the farm" on this move - selling the house/cars/most possessions, and if we can't land in Spain we are going to have to look at some of our rejected fallback locations. My wife is a 2nd generation US citizen of Spanish descent, but we've had a hard time documenting it, so we aren't counting on it as a way in. 

We really want to do it by the rules, but the rules don't quite fit, which is why I mentioned "shoe-horning" my situation into the visa requirements. We have the savings and income needed to qualify under all but the investor visa, but if they tell me I can't work remotely then it won't be possible to make the move.


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## src6 (Aug 15, 2016)

I've been doing a bit more reading. It appears that when you apply for permanent residency, you can then work in Spain - is this true regardless of your initial visa? I was concerned about being stuck in a "can't work here" limbo forever, but if that restriction goes away after 5 years, it makes things a lot less daunting.


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