# Leaving debt



## streetspirit (May 12, 2011)

Someone at my husbands work left Abu Dhabi in the middle of the night with his wife and kids and went back to the UK. 

It's a long story, but the employer reduced his housing allowance without notice to 60k, (for a family of 5!) he was struggling to get kids in school as one needed specialist care. Etc etc just generally was a bad move for them to come here. Anyway, he left 160k worth of debt with UNB. 

Does anyone know what the process is with the bank? I know they will ban him and if he ever lands in UAE he'll be arrested but I mean with regard to back in the UK?

Do they "sell" the debt on? Can they even legally do that with it being different jurisdictions and debt laws? 

I know he shouldn't have just gone and left it, I'm not condoning his actions I just need some info with regards to now that he's actually in the UK.


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## Canuck_Sens (Nov 16, 2010)

Hi,

I am really sorry to hear what has just happened to this family. Usually what happens is that once the bank realizes the borrower defaulted twice they will go after him. When he borrowed money from them, he most surely did provide evidence of his home country details (i.e. relatives and addresses). And most likely if they are not able to recover they will go after him in the UK by engaging collection agencies or selling the debt.

And everything you mentioned about the fallout in the UAE is correct.

He can always try to pay them back in installments.....




streetspirit said:


> Someone at my husbands work left Abu Dhabi in the middle of the night with his wife and kids and went back to the UK.
> 
> It's a long story, but the employer reduced his housing allowance without notice to 60k, (for a family of 5!) he was struggling to get kids in school as one needed specialist care. Etc etc just generally was a bad move for them to come here. Anyway, he left 160k worth of debt with UNB.
> 
> ...


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## streetspirit (May 12, 2011)

Can a UK agency legally enforce the repayment? I've been reading so much differing opinion that its hard to understand. Some say they have no legal standing to do so, and its merely threats in the hopes that you pay. 

I think he will try and pay what he can to them now he's back in UK but its the worry of court etc of what they can legally enforce in the UK.


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## indoMLA (Feb 6, 2011)

Canuck_Sens said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am really sorry to hear what has just happened to this family. Usually what happens is that once the bank realizes the borrower defaulted twice they will go after him.* When he borrowed money from them, he most surely did provide evidence of his home country details (i.e. relatives and addresses).* And most likely if they are not able to recover they will go after him in the UK by engaging collection agencies or selling the debt.
> 
> ...


I doubt that... I didn't have to provide any of that when I opened an account.


To the OP... the absconder needs to contact the bank and see if he can work out a payment plan or else he better hope he never lands in the UAE ever again for anything, especially now that they are checking the passenger manifest of all Dubai inbound flights.


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## saraswat (Apr 28, 2012)

streetspirit said:


> Can a UK agency legally enforce the repayment? I've been reading so much differing opinion that its hard to understand. Some say they have no legal standing to do so, and its merely threats in the hopes that you pay.
> 
> I think he will try and pay what he can to them now he's back in UK but its the worry of court etc of what they can legally enforce in the UK.


Maybe you've come across these already online, but in-case not:

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/uae-...nding-brits-after-high-court-case-469049.html
http://www.arabianbusiness.com/uae-wins-extradition-uk-case-464542.html

the results of the two legal actions were completely opposite, but the situation also were completely different, not trying to confuse you, just give you some more points of reference..


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## streetspirit (May 12, 2011)

Yeah I think he's happy with never coming back here. 

He's just concerned about the legalities in the UK if a UK agency start to chase him. 

We've all dealt with customer service in banks here so I can imagine it will be a lot of phonecalls for him to speak to the bank. He just doesn't want someone threatening him in the UK if they legally can't. 

In others words, if he tells them to F off will they actually take him to court!


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## vantage (May 10, 2012)

i think it also means he cannot come back to ANY GCC country, doesn't it?


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## indoMLA (Feb 6, 2011)

I don't think the UK government will enforce the laws of another country within their own or among their own. The UAE may hire people to harass the poor man, but I don't think he will be liable to pay anything.... that being said, you need to tell your friend to pay the amount he owes. Life sucks, but you got to take your lumps.


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## Canuck_Sens (Nov 16, 2010)

A lot of opinions but no facts from what I read so far from the comments
take these for granted:

1- there are formal procedures that allow one judiciary system to engage another different judiciary system. That means they can go after him if they want. If you commit a crime they can engage anyone. It just takes a lot of time.

2- when you open an account they don't ask questions about relatives and such, try taking a loan and they will ask. It is part of their due diligence. You most likely signed the terms and conditions ( that most people of course read ) and there it may say that they can go after you to collect the funds you own them. Banks learned from the crisis.

3- Once he is back on his feet it is better to have an agreement to settle the debt. Thinking that he is safe is the biggest illusion one might have. He might not go to jail in the UK., but the court can go after him why not? If you provoke the court under legal grounds they can.


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## saraswat (Apr 28, 2012)

the two links i posted earlier are factual new-stories about factual cases ..


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## Canuck_Sens (Nov 16, 2010)

saraswat said:


> the two links i posted earlier are factual new-stories about factual cases ..


I am not saying it is not....but people tend to think that the highest court of a country cannot engage another countrie's highest courts they can and happens all the time.

Look for the American CEO that run away back to America after stealing tons and look for that British guy who stole tons ran away and was caught in Singpore and sent back to the UAE. These were extreme cases. Although UK may not have an extradition agreement with the UAE, they certainly do with other countries.

Ask any lawyer.


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## ccr (Jun 20, 2010)

streetspirit said:


> Yeah I think he's happy with never coming back here.


What if one day his plane has to make an emergency stop in Dubai for whatever reason ? I wonder if the passenger manifest will be checked under those situations...


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## Canuck_Sens (Nov 16, 2010)

ccr said:


> What if one day his plane has to make an emergency stop in Dubai for whatever reason ? I wonder if the passenger manifest will be checked under those situations...


It will be checked and the police will be there waiting to arrest him. By then I am making the assumption that all attemps to recover the funds have failed ...completely exhausted


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## streetspirit (May 12, 2011)

Yeah he's struggling to get set up in the UK with the way the job situation is which is why he's worried about getting chased and that while he can't repay. But once he's sorted he will. He would have done it here had he been able to but the situation was becoming impossible. At least now his kids are in school Etc which was the most important thing to him. And anyone I'd imagine. 

Thanks for all the info.


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## streetspirit (May 12, 2011)

I read those links too but they seem to be very different cases as said, I suppose he just needs to wait and see. Hopefully he'll be sorted with work soon and can get back on track with it all


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## Canuck_Sens (Nov 16, 2010)

I can imagine and I would probably have done the same under the same circumstances.


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## streetspirit (May 12, 2011)

Canuck_Sens said:


> I can imagine and I would probably have done the same under the same circumstances.


Yeah sometimes this place isn't the best move for everybody. To be fair to him the company is starting to really take the p**s. They just lowered everyone's housing without telling anyone, just as everyone's applied for cheques for their next years housing. They refuse to pay them their overtime, even though they're forcing them to work the equivalent of 30+ hours overtime a month through the shifts they make them work. 

This guy isn't the first to just leave because of the conditions there. Started off good, then it's just slowly gone downhill. 

I think if we could follow we would!


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## rsinner (Feb 3, 2009)

1. The cases Saraswat posted about - two different cases. One is outright fraud (which is illegal in the UK), while the other one is similar to the case posted by the OP - not repaying a loan in the UK (or most other countries) is not a criminal offence - you can always restructure

2. Will the bank have recourse over the person's UK assets? most likely not. The terms and conditions (which Canuck Sens says everyone reads and probably includes a catch all phrase saying that the bank can unilaterally change the terms and conditions) of the loan probably stays silent about assets outside of the UAE in any case

3. The person can forget about coming back to the UAE (or probably GCC - not sure). I know the person would not plan for this but account for emergency landings in the UAE!

I think this topic has been discussed a number of times in the forum itself. (just posting a few threads which I had seen earlier - googled)
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/dubai-expat-forum-expats-living-dubai/14670-debt-uae.html
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/du...ing-dubai/59476-help-advice-leaving-debt.html
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/dubai-expat-forum-expats-living-dubai/83873-flagged-passport.html

having said all this, I really hope that this person is planning to repay the 160K AED. The loan probably had nothing to do with the reducing housing allowance (maybe I am being judgmental). 160K is a substantial enough amount for someone to be tempted about not paying, but I really hope that this person will do the right thing


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## ibkiss (Feb 1, 2012)

Canuck_Sens said:


> I am not saying it is not....but people tend to think that the highest court of a country cannot engage another countrie's highest courts they can and happens all the time.
> 
> Look for the American CEO that run away back to America after stealing tons and look for that British guy who stole tons ran away and was caught in Singpore and sent back to the UAE. These were extreme cases. Although *UK may not have an extradition agreement with the UAE*, they certainly do with other countries.
> 
> Ask any lawyer.


Is it certain that UK has no extradition treaty with the U.A.E. .... cannot digest this


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## Canuck_Sens (Nov 16, 2010)

ibkiss said:


> Is it certain that UK has no extradition treaty with the U.A.E. .... cannot digest this


That's why I used _may_

UK may not have an extradition agreement with the UAE, they certainly do [Have] with other countries


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## Canuck_Sens (Nov 16, 2010)

rsinner said:


> 1. OP - not repaying a loan in the UK (or most other countries) is not a criminal offence - you can always restructure


Here a loan is backed up by a cheque. Once the cheque bounces you have right there a criminal offense.



rsinner said:


> 2. Will the bank have recourse over the person's UK assets? most likely not. The terms and conditions (which Canuck Sens says everyone reads and probably includes a catch all phrase saying that the bank can unilaterally change the terms and conditions) of the loan probably stays silent about assets outside of the UAE in any case


I think the question is: Can they though? They can and have been doing so depending on the case.

Ahhh I said that everybody reads as a sarcasm. Almost nobody reads the terms and conditions!!! If you go to the bank and ask them to provide you a copy they will stare at you wondering. They don't have these things handy and even over the website it is not listed.


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## Jynxgirl (Nov 27, 2009)

If the 160k is a rent check....  I presonally wouldnt ever pay it back either. The company should get in trouble for lowering the rental allowance. The place being rerented out should mean the owner should return the left over portion of the rent... blah blah blah. 

Another reason to not bring your family the first three to six months until you know the jist of the position, that what they are saying is true as this is cowboys and indian country where rules and laws change by the minute and usually not in your favor, and that you think your family is making a move up by coming here. 

I do wish them luck. I believe from reading others, the only thing that is happening to people right now back in the uk is people are receiving calls about their debt. I would steer clear of any flights ever coming this way. That would include any flight to asia and to africa. Those countries are now out to ever visit ever again.....


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## streetspirit (May 12, 2011)

Jynxgirl said:


> Another reason to not bring your family the first three to six months until you know the jist of the position, that what they are saying is true as this is cowboys and indian country where rules and laws change by the minute and usually not in your favor, and that you think your family is making a move up by coming here.


To be fair we waited 8 months before myself and the kids moved over and we're in the same situation with the rent now. Looks like we won't actually have anywhere to live soon! Only difference is my kids aren't in school so we didn't have to worry about that. Still. Makes me want to leave to be honest


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