# Moody Rating down, unemployment up..



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Moody has downgraded Spain's rating to Aa2. Not that Moody is a particularly astute reader of economic runes - 'twas Moody and others who gave the dubious US packaged-up dodgy mortgages a AAA rating, remember - but the harsh fact is that this will have an impact on Spain's borrowing costs.
Add this to a forecast of 0.7% growth over the next year compared to the over-optimistic 1.7% Spanish Government forecast.
Not enough to create significant employment opportunities.
Worst of all...a further 240000 have been added to the number of jobless in the first two months of this year.

And would-be jobseeking immigrants _still_ think they can get a job and 'live the dream' here


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Moody has downgraded Spain's rating to Aa2. Not that Moody is a particularly astute reader of economic runes - 'twas Moody and others who gave the dubious US packaged-up dodgy mortgages a AAA rating, remember - but the harsh fact is that this will have an impact on Spain's borrowing costs.
> Add this to a forecast of 0.7% growth over the next year compared to the over-optimistic 1.7% Spanish Government forecast.
> Not enough to create significant employment opportunities.
> Worst of all...a further 240000 have been added to the number of jobless in the first two months of this year.
> ...


To be honest Mary if I saw a brit asking for work in spain and spanish youths set upon him then I'd turn a blind eye. It is now beyond a joke. But hopefully the words of warning you and others constantly offer mean that despite the posts very few of them actually get on a plane.

What would be interesting is to know from economic experts the number of unemployed required to make the situation totally unrecoverable without defaulting first. There must be a point where there is obviously no possibility of any recovery before the country is 100% bankrupt. Clearly there are external factors like 'how long would germany foot the bill' but I'm not sure the German people will support that for long.

Of course the spanish government could let the unemployed starve to death but there would be a time when public servants: police, tax collectors, etc were not paid. That has already be seen with delayed payments of course in a minor way. Once that happens I think an unsavoury end would happen in weeks.

I'm just thinking that point may be very close now. 

And if the worst (although I'm not sure it really is the worst) happened could the state rely on the army? 

I guess we will have to wait until the tourist summer season finishes and the few seasonal jobs come to an end.

On a brighter note my spanish stepdaughter has a job. For two months she will help out at a diving school. There's no pay but she gets free lessons for here Dive master qualification. It'll cost her about 1000Es to live each month including airfare and she'll get 600Es paro. So only 800Es down and at least the sun will shine. And her CV will look better and she might get a job relating to diving out of spain


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Good news about your step-daughter but would be better still with pay!! But this could lead to a solid job offer,perhaps...


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Good news about your step-daughter but would be better still with pay!! But this could lead to a solid job offer,perhaps...


Hope so Mary but at least she is not lying around the suburbs of Madrid bored like several of her friends. And scuba attracts quite a few well off guys so who knows what might blossom 

The school is where I first trained but sadly things are not looking good. Holiday bookings for courses or 10 dive packages are few and far between. But at least Raphael who owns it (not that beyond his know how there is much more than a few tanks, lead weights and a reputation) is from a Tenerife family who are well established so if all else fails he with his wife and baby will be OK.

I always thought if Marta worked for a diving school I'd be into cheap dives but I guess I'll have to insist on paying full price and buy dinner


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> Hope so Mary but at least she is not lying around the suburbs of Madrid bored like several of her friends. And scuba attracts quite a few well off guys so who knows what might blossom
> 
> The school is where I first trained but sadly things are not looking good. Holiday bookings for courses or 10 dive packages are few and far between. But at least Raphael who owns it (not that beyond his know how there is much more than a few tanks, lead weights and a reputation) is from a Tenerife family who are well established so if all else fails he with his wife and baby will be OK.
> 
> I always thought if Marta worked for a diving school I'd be into cheap dives but I guess I'll have to insist on paying full price and buy dinner


I didn't know you were a diver, Nigel....Respect!!!
Do you go to look at shipwrecks etc.?


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I didn't know you were a diver, Nigel....Respect!!!
> Do you go to look at shipwrecks etc.?


I love old ship wrecks for the sea life that lives on and around it but I'm very happy on a rife. Besides the odd big critter, I remember in Lanzarote a grouper of about 10 kilos, he swam up to us and let us tickle him under the chin, I like the vast clouds of smaller fish which you can swim through. What is great is that most of the wild life does not see a diver as a danger so you can get up close. 

This April I'll be joining a spanish diving club in Gijon. That should be fun. No language problems down below of course - all international sign language 

Have you not tried it Mary?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> I love old ship wrecks for the sea life that lives on and around it but I'm very happy on a rife. Besides the odd big critter, I remember in Lanzarote a grouper of about 10 kilos, he swam up to us and let us tickle him under the chin, I like the vast clouds of smaller fish which you can swim through. What is great is that most of the wild life does not see a diver as a danger so you can get up close.
> 
> This April I'll be joining a spanish diving club in Gijon. That should be fun. No language problems down below of course - all international sign language
> 
> Have you not tried it Mary?


No!! Neither have I tried skiing in spite of much persuasion from Czech friends when we stayed at their chalet in what used to be the Sudeten mountains.
The most dangerous sport I've engaged in was squash....
I'm past it now, can't move fast enough and my eyesight isn't what it was...
I would be a danger to any opponent for the wrong reason..


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> No!! Neither have I tried skiing in spite of much persuasion from Czech friends when we stayed at their chalet in what used to be the Sudeten mountains.
> The most dangerous sport I've engaged in was squash....
> I'm past it now, can't move fast enough and my eyesight isn't what it was...
> I would be a danger to any opponent for the wrong reason..


There's no more relaxed pastime than diving - weightless. 

:focus: Do you have any hopes for the EU meeting today? The result (or non result) should be interesting


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> There's no more relaxed pastime than diving - weightless.
> 
> :focus: Do you have any hopes for the EU meeting today? The result (or non result) should be interesting


They're supposed to be discussing this Financial Stability Fund, aren't they...but Libya may take up more time. There's another meeting on the 24th March.
Found out some interesting figures: UK basic pension is 30% of average wage, France is 50%, Spain 80% and Greece......95%.
This move to reform public sector pensions has my support. It's true not all are gold-plated but some are. For example: a teacher retiring on a salary of £50k a year or more -the norm for Heads and Heads of Departments, could be even more in London and other cities, could expect a pension of around £20k per annum if retiring at sixty. S/he would also receive a one-off tax-free lump sum of three times the annual pension....£75k. 
Teachers can be boring so often marry other teachers. So...a retired teaching couple could have between them £50k teachers' pension plus twice £75k.....plus twice the basic state pension of £5k. Total retirement income: £50k per couple. 
Now I''m not saying this is wrong in itself - I enjoy a Final Salary Scheme. But UK taxpayers are subsidising these pensions.
I know the majority of public sector workers don't receive such high pensions. That's more reason for looking at low-paid workers' pensions and increasing them.
If we can we should take responsibility for our retirement - which means higher interest rates on savings.
But those on low incomes have no hope of saving for a good standard of living when retired and need help.

Sorry, I'm banging on about the UK again, I know...but I feel strongly about this. And I don't agree with my Union's stand!


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Mary it seems to me the plan is to build a bigger fund (in reality reserved obligation as the money will not exist until needed ?). They will lend Spain and Portugal money at slightly better rates and with a longer term repayment plan. But in return they will demand public spending cuts and increased taxes.

Now for the government, the rich, the controlling classes and the well paid sounds OK. But what do the 90% average people get out of it? And why is it not at least equal or better for the country to default?

Any thoughts Mary?

ps; My SIL and step daughter went to the paro office friday. They laughed when they saw only two notices on the board of jobs. One was a job that if you worked 18 hours a day you would just about be able to feed yourself. The other was information on job hunting in Germany  

At least now they get appointed times to be there in an attempt to avoid the vast queues


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Its very wrong that companies such as Moodys have the power to effect peoples lives like this - with no real qualification to do so from what I can see

Jo xxx


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

jojo said:


> Its very wrong that companies such as Moodys have the power to effect peoples lives like this - with no real qualification to do so from what I can see
> 
> Jo xxx


I know what you mean jo but Moodys in this instance I believe are being very generous to Spain. And Moodys are in some ways a counter to the lying and/or useless spanish government. Remember zappies words about how spain was well positioned to ride the crisis and come out better than others 

If it wasn't for Moodys the UK government might be tempted to put the pension funds of many here into spanish debt at poor rates


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> I know what you mean jo but Moodys in this instance I believe are being very generous to Spain. And Moodys are in some ways a counter to the lying and/or useless spanish government. Remember zappies words about how spain was well positioned to ride the crisis and come out better than others
> 
> If it wasn't for Moodys the UK government might be tempted to put the pension funds of many here into spanish debt at poor rates


But the spread on Spanish Treasury Bonds is high...near the 7% unsustainable rate. So the return would be good.
At the moment.....
To use current trendy terminology, someone's going to have a haircut though and within this current year....
What do I think, Nigel? Tbh I see no prospect of drastic change to the current system the whole world lives under unless the situation whereby most of us are well-fed, have adequate housing, a good lifestyle etc. is turned on its head and the reverse become true. When Marx told the workers to rise because they had 'nothing to lose but their chains' he didn't envisage a future where the losses would include homes, cars, 42 " tv sets, holidays abroad etc.etc.
But the older I get the more cynical and resigned I become so I'm a very poor commentator on outcomes as my basic position is one of gloom.
I'm a great fan of the writings of John Gray - the political philosopher who wrote 'Straw Dogs' and other works, not the pop-psychologist who wrote that dreadful'Men are from Mars, Women from Venus' tripe.
He's worth a read, you can get his books second-hand on amazon.
Very thought-provoking.


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

Whilst agree that spanish economy is pretty much screwed at the moment, no doubt about that (courtesy to our corrupt and inept government, but digress)....I think Europe should go ahead and create its own credit rating agencies

It is a well known fact that many of the current US based agencies serve to american interests by giving a favourable perception to it self and other anglosaxon nations and thus encouraging investement and confidence. 

As for unemployment, I hear there is a demand for Air traffic controlers.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Sonrisa said:


> Whilst agree that spanish economy is pretty much screwed at the moment, no doubt about that (courtesy to our corrupt and inept government, but digress)....I think Europe should go ahead and create its own credit rating agencies
> 
> It is a well known fact that many of the current US based agencies serve to american interests by giving a favourable perception to it self and other anglosaxon nations and thus encouraging investement and confidence.
> 
> As for unemployment, I hear there is a demand for Air traffic controlers.



European credit rating agencies would be ineffective. Why would the US or Asian markets change from Standard and Poor, Moodys etc? Where would such an agency be based? There are only two European states with financial clout -the UK because London is still -just -the world's leading financial centre and Germany because it is Europe's paymaster (although the German public may balk at bailing out Spain). Remember that looking at Europe as a whole it is the small western portion- what you term 'Anglo-Saxon -that calls the shots financially. Eastern Europe and the southern periphery are essentially client states. We Anglo-Saxons may well be keeping you afloat before long Or not....
Any change to the financial market must be accepted and put into practice globally. That's why the current UK clamour for restrictions on banks - curbing bonuses, the call for a 'Tobin Tax' etc. - will be useless unless there is a global agreement on regulation.
As for the disastrous policies of the current Government: I agree, it is shirking some of the big issues such as labour reform. But what would the PP do? What is the alternative it proposes?
Who was in power when Spain decided to become the Florida of Europe, attracting not-that-wealthy Northern European pensioners, spoiling the countryside and creating a bubble that having burst has been a major factor in Spain's economic crisis?
In my area, the PP has blocked economic expansion by helping block a proposal to transfer a faculty of Malaga University to Estepona, creating over 1000 jobs. It has also led the opposition to the taking on of an affordable loan at exceptionally low rate of interest to enable the Ayto to repay debts to businesses dating back to the 1990's..
Why????
A for your point about air traffic controllers......what is your point? Yes, they are overpaid. But I don't think taking an unemployed bricklayer off the dole and putting him in a control tower is an idea that will appeal to many.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Sonrisa said:


> It is a well known fact that many of the current US based agencies serve to american interests by giving a favourable perception to it self and other anglosaxon nations and thus encouraging investement and confidence.


If it is a "well known fact" then anyone who is making investment decisions will take that into account. It would only be an issue if it wasn't a "well known fact" surely?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> If it is a "well known fact" then anyone who is making investment decisions will take that into account. It would only be an issue if it wasn't a "well known fact" surely?


'Well-known fact', 'everybody knows' and 'it's common knowledge' are usually an indicator of the complete opposite to what the user is telling you.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> 'Well-known fact', 'everybody knows' and 'it's common knowledge' are usually an indicator of the complete opposite to what the user is telling you.


Don't be naughty Mary and go pour the G&Ts


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> Don't be naughty Mary and go pour the G&Ts


Ahh.....but I'm cutting down on alcohol. One bottle of wine spread over Saturday and Sunday is my limit for the time being. Fruit juice for the other five days.
I've kept it up for two weeks now.
G&T for summer by the pool....


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

A for your point about air traffic controllers......what is your point? Yes, they are overpaid. But I don't think taking an unemployed bricklayer off the dole and putting him in a control tower is an idea that will appeal to many.[/QUOTE]

My point is that instead wasting one's youth training to be a diving instructor, or a lawyer, or a beer pourer, or hanging in madrid suburbs getting bored, it is a wise choice to join one of the aviation schools that will train you to be ATC in three years plus experience. You just have to be under 30 and have good numeric, reflexes, linguistic and psicological capabilities.


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> 'Well-known fact', 'everybody knows' and 'it's common knowledge' are usually an indicator of the complete opposite to what the user is telling you.


it has been widely reported. Do you read newspapers?


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> European credit rating agencies would be ineffective. Why would the US or Asian markets change from Standard and Poor, Moodys etc? Where would such an agency be based? There are only two European states with financial clout -the UK because London is still -just -the world's leading financial centre and Germany because it is Europe's paymaster (although the German public may balk at bailing out Spain). Remember that looking at Europe as a whole it is the small western portion- what you term 'Anglo-Saxon -that calls the shots financially. Eastern Europe and the southern periphery are essentially client states. We Anglo-Saxons may well be keeping you afloat before long Or not....
> Any change to the financial market must be accepted and put into practice globally. That's why the current UK clamour for restrictions on banks - curbing bonuses, the call for a 'Tobin Tax' etc. - will be useless unless there is a global agreement on regulation.
> As for the disastrous policies of the current Government: I agree, it is shirking some of the big issues such as labour reform. But what would the PP do? What is the alternative it proposes?
> Who was in power when Spain decided to become the Florida of Europe, attracting not-that-wealthy Northern European pensioners, spoiling the countryside and creating a bubble that having burst has been a major factor in Spain's economic crisis?
> ...


Mary, I can honestly say that I haven't go a clue what you are going on about here. Stay focused: moody and other rating agencies. 

THere was an excellent analisys in El Pais a few days ago, but it is in spanish, Moody's se equivoca (a veces) y llega tarde (casi siempre) · ELPAÍS.com

Since according to Moody USA and UK keep the triple AAA, but they are in a worse situation in terms of public and personal Debt levels in comparation to Spain. Perhaps one of you selfappointed ecomists would be kind enough to let me know what are these credit agencies based on when they decide their ratings? 

Also, maybe someone could clarify how comes the Euro is so bloody strong if we are doing so badly. I mean, I have to transfer dollars to europe every few months and given the exchange rate one would assume that it can not be that bad after all when the dollar is sold so cheaply.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Sonrisa said:


> it has been widely reported. Do you read newspapers?


So I repeat if it is a "widely known fact" what is the problem?

And just as a point of interest which newspapers are we talking about? Is El Pais the only source of your info?


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

Lol not only, Moody has been under scruitinity many times in the past. Finantial times for example.

Over here I'm pretty much stuck with Times, Newsweek and whatever else I can find only, if that's of interest to you


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

nigele2 said:


> So I repeat if it is a "widely known fact" what is the problem?
> 
> And just as a point of interest which newspapers are we talking about? Is El Pais the only source of your info?


This is an extract from wikipedia which should put things into perspective. You will find it under Europan sovereign debt crisis. 

Controversies[edit] Credit rating agenciesThe international credit rating agencies – 

Moody's, S&P and Fitch – have played a central[123] and controversial role[124] in the current European bond market crisis.[125] As with the housing bubble[126][127] and the Icelandic crisis,[128][129] the ratings agencies have been under fire. The agencies have been accused of giving overly generous ratings due to conflicts of interest.[130] Ratings agencies also have a tendency to act conservatively, and to take some time to adjust when a firm or country is in trouble.[131] In the case of Greece, the market responded to the crisis before the downgrades, with Greek bonds trading at junk levels several weeks before the ratings agencies began to describe them as such.[123]

Government officials have criticised the ratings agencies and the German finance minister has said traders should not take global rating agencies "too seriously" following downgrades of Greece, Spain and Portugal. Guido Westerwelle, German foreign minister, called for an "independent" European rating agency, which could avoid the conflicts of interest that he claimed US-based agencies faced.[132] According to the Financial Times "The latest furore over the agencies' role in the sovereign debt market"[132] is likely to bring about more supervision of these agencies. Germany's foreign minister suggested the European Union should create its own rating agency. He spoke after downgrades of Greece and Portugal roiled financial markets.[123]

European leaders are reportedly studying the possibility of setting up a European ratings agency in order that the private U.S.-based ratings agencies have less influence on developments in European financial markets in the future.[133][134] Due to the failures of the ratings agencies, European regulators will be given new powers to supervise ratings agencies.[124] These supervisory powers will come into effect in December 2010.

In a response to the actions of the private U.S. based ratings agencies the ECB announced on 3 May that it will accept as collateral all outstanding and new debt instruments issued or guaranteed by the Greek government, regardless of the nation's credit rating.[135]


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Sonrisa said:


> Lol not only, Moody has been under scruitinity many times in the past. Finantial times for example.
> 
> Over here I'm pretty much stuck with Times, Newsweek and whatever else I can find only, if that's of interest to you


Yup of interest but you still haven't answered the question. But whatever an interesting debate.

Sadly though, not specifically you Sonrisa, I do find the yank bashing almost as annoying as brit bashing but c'est la vie.

Now for England Scotland. If it is anything like the Italy France game then we are in for a treat. just hope the refs have a better day than at the Welsh Irish game  Enjoy one and all


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

nigele2 said:


> Yup of interest but you still haven't answered the question. But whatever an interesting debate.


What question?


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Sonrisa said:


> What question?


 you should be a politician


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Sonrisa said:


> it has been widely reported. Do you read newspapers?


Yes, of course and a wide variety.
But do you believe that everything you read is true?
With your knowledge of English you will have read The Daily Mail and The Guardian.
Here I read ABC and El Pais.
Which of these reports 'facts'?


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Sonrisa said:


> Mary, I can honestly say that I haven't go a clue what you are going on about here. Stay focused: moody and other rating agencies.
> 
> THere was an excellent analisys in El Pais a few days ago, but it is in spanish, Moody's se equivoca (a veces) y llega tarde (casi siempre) · ELPAÍS.com
> 
> ...


Your last point: the euro is strong probably because the European Central Bank is believed to be on the point of raising interest rates. The dollar is weak because the U.S. recovery is slow and unemployment high.
The UK is not in a worse situation compared to Spain because of
1) the fact that our debt is long-term and held mainly by British institutions 2) our economy is strong enough to ride out the current recession for many obvious reasons 3) our groweth forecasts our good compared to Spain 4) the UK is within the world's five strongest economies and 5) we can borrow on the bond market at under 3.5% and lend at a rate considerably higher as we have done with Ireland.
There is also the fact that as I said earlier London is still the world's financial capital, providing over 20% of our tax revenue.
Spain has none of these advantages. It needs urgently to become more competitive and promote growth yet unlike Germany which competes on quality Spain, like its southern neighbours, can compete only on cost. What is urgently needed are real growth-promoting strategies which encourage investment in new technologies and give impetus to venture capital and thus entrepreneurism.
Any strength the euro has owes nothing to Spain. Spain urgently needs a devaluation which as long as it's in the eurozone is of course out of the question.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Sonrisa said:


> This is an extract from wikipedia which should put things into perspective. You will find it under Europan sovereign debt crisis.
> 
> Controversies[edit] Credit rating agenciesThe international credit rating agencies –
> 
> ...


You are preaching to the converted. As I posted elsewhere, Moodys gave top rating to US bundled-up toxic loans. They are useless predictors and are financed by the institutions whose products they rate. Most people know that.
But the fact is that the markets react to such downgradings,as you will see shortly in the case of Spain, where spreads on yields are already reaching the unsustainable.
Who, apart from U.S. neo-cons (and some in the PP) believe that markets are rational?
The ECB will simply not be able to support the costs of a bail-out for Greece which is technically bankrupt and Spain and Portugal too, should a bailout be required, as seems likely later this year..There will have to be a system of managed defaults which it's possible will be discussed and set up when the next European Summit occurs on March 24th.
Some real facts: the cost to the Spanish Government of bailing out the cajas will cost in the region of 40 - 50 billion euros, far more than the Government hoped last year. 
The Spanish Government forecasts growth at 1.7%......it is more likely to approach 0.7%.
Unemployment rose by almost a quarter of a million in the first two months of this year.
Spain is in deep trouble.

By the way, Wikipaedia is NOT a good source. Its pieces are often ill-informed and subject to correction.


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Your last point: the euro is strong probably because the European Central Bank is believed to be on the point of raising interest rates. The dollar is weak because the U.S. recovery is slow and unemployment high.
> The UK is not in a worse situation compared to Spain because of
> 1) the fact that our debt is long-term and held mainly by British institutions 2) our economy is strong enough to ride out the current recession for many obvious reasons 3) our groweth forecasts our good compared to Spain 4) the UK is within the world's five strongest economies and 5) we can borrow on the bond market at under 3.5% and lend at a rate considerably higher as we have done with Ireland.
> There is also the fact that as I said earlier London is still the world's financial capital, providing over 20% of our tax revenue.
> ...



I agree what you say about Spain but I think you are way too optimistic about your own country, which I personally believe is in more trouble than us. 
Since you have said to read the Guardian, then you may have noticed that Dr Doom has a far gloomier picture of the UK's economy than yourself.

Sounds like too may GT's is afecting your perception of the UK's economy. 

At least Spain has Germany and France to cough up some euros should things go seriously wrong. THe sad truth is that Great Britain can only borrow its way out of debt, and cut on education and health for so long.


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> You are preaching to the converted. As I posted elsewhere, Moodys gave top rating to US bundled-up toxic loans. They are useless predictors and are financed by the institutions whose products they rate. Most people know that.
> .


Uh? So you finally agree? Most people know that. Jaja. SOunds just like common knowledge.

That was the whole bloody point I was trying to make


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

Sonrisa said:


> I agree what you say about Spain but I think you are way too optimistic about your own country, which I personally believe is in more trouble than us.
> Since you have said to read the Guardian, then you may have noticed that Dr Doom has a far gloomier picture of the UK's economy than yourself.
> 
> Sounds like too may GT's is afecting your perception of the UK's economy.
> ...


Sonrisa please open your eyes. Some of my spanish family on their last legs worrying where the next Euro is coming from. My SIL will I believe soon be alone, unemployed with an 8 year old daughter. Her husband can stand the strain no longer. My step daughter has worked for 5 years but now is unemployed and her only hope is the UK. In the UK there are vacancies by the dozen for her. In Spain the authorities have told her to go abroad.

In the UK none of my extended family are unemployed. If they were they wouldn't starve. My company tests computer systems for large companies. We have three british private sector clients: International recycling with depots throughout the states, an international publisher, and developers of distributed medical systems. All need us because of expansion. 

Another client is a bank. It is expanding. Like the other bank the tax payer bailed it is close to having a sellable value that the tax payer paid. There is discussion about simoply giving the money directly back to the people. Spain is yet to pay the full bill. 

Last year the UK moved up the competitive league table. Spain suffered a catastrophic fall.

The UK is in full command of its currency. It can devalue or upvalue as it wishes. Spain has a currency that is set by a rich country when it is bankrupt. It will soon default or depend on charity.

The UK can make money by borrowing money on low rates and lending to the Irish on high rates. Spain just borrows!

And you think it is fine that spaniards should be relaxed because they can hope for a German handout????

There's only one person here who has had too much G&T and it is not Mary - although I'm sure she has her moments


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Sonrisa said:


> I agree what you say about Spain but I think you are way too optimistic about your own country, which I personally believe is in more trouble than us.
> Since you have said to read the Guardian, then you may have noticed that Dr Doom has a far gloomier picture of the UK's economy than yourself.
> 
> Sounds like too may GT's is afecting your perception of the UK's economy.
> ...




You are simply wrong about the UK economy. No way is it in more trouble than Spain. All you are doing is asserting a contrary opinion without dealing with the points I made.
Yes, the UK has problems and the Coalition's cuts policy is imo prolonging our woes. But as I have said, our economy is much stronger than Spain's and our growth prospects are positive, if limited. We punch with more weight than Spain, enjoy a level of market confidence Spain does not and sterling is still a major currency.
Within a year Spain could either require a bailout from the eurozone and probably the UK. Note that in spite of its current woes the UK is still a contributor to international rescue packages.
Or Spain could default.
Wait and see. 
It seems that Spain has to catch up with the UK on a self-awareness level too.
Do you still think you are a great power? You have a glorious imperial past.....which came to an end centuries ago. Now you are a weak state on the southern periphery of the EU along with Italy, Portugal and Greece. 
Great Britain came to terms with the loss of imperial status after the end of the second world war. We shed our empire and settled down under the U.S. umbrella. We accommodated to our second-tier status. Of course there are Brits who can't come to terms with this. But most of us know our place which all things considered could be a lot worse. Most of us enjoy a high standard of living with a level of social welfare most Spaniards would envy.
And we are not considered in danger of default.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Sonrisa said:


> Uh? So you finally agree? Most people know that. Jaja. SOunds just like common knowledge.
> 
> That was the whole bloody point I was trying to make


There is a difference where substantiated fact is involved. And I said 'most'.
Different from 'common knowledge'.
Example: _Most people know that Washington DC is the capital of the US'
It is common knowledge nthat the murder of Kennedy was a conspiracy between right wing groups and the Mafia_.

Subtle but important difference.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> Sonrisa please open your eyes. Some of my spanish family on their last legs worrying where the next Euro is coming from. My SIL will I believe soon be alone, unemployed with an 8 year old daughter. Her husband can stand the strain no longer. My step daughter has worked for 5 years but now is unemployed and her only hope is the UK. In the UK there are vacancies by the dozen for her. In Spain the authorities have told her to go abroad.
> 
> In the UK none of my extended family are unemployed. If they were they wouldn't starve. My company tests computer systems for large companies. We have three british private sector clients: International recycling with depots throughout the states, an international publisher, and developers of distributed medical systems. All need us because of expansion.
> 
> ...


Well put, Nigel.
We Brits often forget that we still rank amongst the world's leading military and economic powers.
We tend to self-deprecate.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> Well put, Nigel.
> We Brits often forget that we still rank amongst the world's leading military and economic powers.
> We tend to self-deprecate.


Very true Mary, we have always been the best as proven by the story below. 

After having dug to a depth of 10 feet last year, Australian scientists found traces of copper wire dating back 200 years and came to the conclusion that their ancestors already had a telephone network more than 150 years ago.


Not to be outdone by the Aussies, in the weeks that followed, an American archaeologist dug to a depth of 20 feet and, shortly after, a story was published in the New York Times: "American archaeologists, finding traces of 250-year-old copper wire, have concluded that their ancestors already had an advanced high-tech communications network 50 years earlier than the Australians".


One week later, the Council in Essex , reported the following:
"After digging as deep as 30 feet in Colchester, Jack Lucknow, a self-taught archaeologist, reported that he found absolutely f**k all. Jack has therefore concluded that 250 years ago, Britain had already gone wireless."

Just makes you bloody proud to be British


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

nigele2 said:


> Very true Mary, we have always been the best as proven by the story below.
> 
> After having dug to a depth of 10 feet last year, Australian scientists found traces of copper wire dating back 200 years and came to the conclusion that their ancestors already had a telephone network more than 150 years ago.
> 
> ...



Funny, but since I left the UK six years ago I've come to appreciate the good things about our 'way of life'. Don't get me wrong, I'm not patriotic and will never live in England again but we have qualities I now recognise.
Our humour above all....self-deprecating, ironic, our stubbornness. Our sense of fair play which is still much in evidence. The way in which we have assimilated so many different ethnicities and cultures with relatively minor difficulty. We do not tolerate corruption and expect our public servants to be just that....servants.
Spain has many qualities we lack. Warmth, friendliness, a recognition of shared humanity. A stoicism in the face of hardship. Strong family and kinship ties.
These are probably the reason why there has been so little publicly expressed outrage at the astronomical unemployment level. Imagine 20% plus unemployment in France....the nation would be paralysed with strikes, riots.
Where I live there is almost 40% unemployment and no work. The region is entirely dependent on tourism and comparatively well-off immigrants.
Crime is increasing as is to be expected. Yet no backlash against foreigners, no unsmiling faces, no lack of 'Hola, que tal!' as we walk around our village.
And I don't think that will change, however worse things get.


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## nigele2 (Dec 25, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> ...........................
> And I don't think that will change, however worse things get.


I hope not in the personal sense but without resistance nothing will change. I suspect where we will see the cracks appearing will be in Catalunya and the Basque country. 

I am now of the mind that splitting Spain up is the best route for all. To change the corruption/greed mentality on a national scale I think is most unlikely. While it would be difficult at regional level at least local pride could be a useful weapon. 

The thing that concerns me is that people say "when Spaniards are unemployed and the dole stops the family helps and supports". So what happens when the entire family are unemployed?

In Torrejon near Madrid there are examples of families where the only income is granny's pension and what they can raise begging on the streets. If these people turn to crime I cannot say I blame them 

But enough of this I need to go make a buck in blightie. Enjoy your day Mary


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## Sonrisa (Sep 2, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Do you still think you are a great power? You have a glorious imperial past.....which came to an end centuries ago. Now you are a weak state on the southern periphery of the EU along with Italy, Portugal and Greece.
> Great Britain came to terms with the loss of imperial status after the end of the second world war. We shed our empire and settled down under the U.S. umbrella. We accommodated to our second-tier status. Of course there are Brits who can't come to terms with this. But most of us know our place which all things considered could be a lot worse. Most of us enjoy a high standard of living with a level of social welfare most Spaniards would envy.
> And we are not considered in danger of default.


What?

I dont' think Spain is a great power?!? Havent you read my words? I am pretty much aware about Spain's economic woes?
Is my english so bad that it is that hard to understand what I write?

What I find atonishing is just how clueless you and Nigel seem to be about your own home land? But I had enough debating with you, It was fun at first but now its dull. You may want to enlighten yourself and take a hard look at the BBC's business news. And you can have your last word after my post. It's ok. I know you wanna.


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

I think that the whole world is in crisis! As for who is in a worse position???? um..... I'd say Japan!! The rest of it is all academic and based on figures. Are Spain in more of a mess than the UK who really knows, who's gonna get out of the mess first, lets wait and see!?! 

Certainly not worth squabbling over - so dont!

Jo xxxx


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Sonrisa said:


> What?
> 
> I dont' think Spain is a great power?!? Havent you read my words? I am pretty much aware about Spain's economic woes?
> Is my english so bad that it is that hard to understand what I write?
> ...


That's the only thing you are right on.
Debates are always dull when one party can't answer points made.
Shame.
Wait and see what happens over the course of the year.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> I think that the whole world is in crisis! As for who is in a worse position???? um..... I'd say Japan!! The rest of it is all academic and based on figures. Are Spain in more of a mess than the UK who really knows, who's gonna get out of the mess first, lets wait and see!?!
> 
> Certainly not worth squabbling over - so dont!
> 
> Jo xxxx


We are in a mess in the UK and the Coalition's policies will make it last longer, imo. 
But we start from a stronger position than Spain. How that can be ignored I do not know....
Today I met yet another young Spanish woman who has lost her job. The situation seems hopeless round here. What is there here apart from tourism? The threat even of the airport strike has already damaged the tourist industry's prospects for this summer....
As Nigel said, yes, the family can support unemployed members. But what happens when the whole family is unemployed??
This situation can't go on much longer without serious social strains.
You are right. Japan is in a much worse mess, in human terms. But fortunately it's a rich, technologically advanced society with resources.
Not that technology or resources can bring back the lost lives.


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