# Mexico is in North America



## Isla Verde

rdhaddock said:


> Certainly have not ruled out Mexico, I have been vacationing there off and on for the last 30 years. Just looking for the right combination that works out with our type of personalities and level of adaptability.


I asked because you mentioned considering South or Central America for a new home, but, as we all know, Mexico in in North America  .


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## FHBOY

Isla Verde said:


> I asked because you mentioned considering South or Central America for a new home, but, as we all know, Mexico in in North America  .


Actually, Teach, we NOBer, _por lo general_, think Mexico is in Central America. So much for geography education LOL.

I do believe that as part of his research, as I did, education about Mexico and all the different types of living available here, may have more influence as it goes along.

This is a definite life decision, as we all know, and making it, IMHO, should be done very carefully.


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## Isla Verde

FHBOY said:


> Actually, Teach, we NOBer, _por lo general_, think Mexico is in Central America. So much for geography education LOL.


That's odd. I remember studying about Latin America back in elementary school and learning that Mexico was definitely not part of Central America. And don't try telling a Mexican that their country is part of Central America. I doubt that bit of misinformation would be appreciated !


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## RVGRINGO

Mexico, officially the United Mexican States, is a federal constitutional republic in North America. Wikipedia
Capital: Mexico City
Currency: Mexican peso
President: Enrique Peña Nieto
Official language: Spanish Language
Government: Federal republic, Presidential system, Constitutional republic
Population: 112,336,538 (2010) Instituto Nacional de Estadística y Geografía


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## FHBOY

RVGRINGO said:


> Mexico, officially the United Mexican States, is a federal constitutional republic in North America. Wikipedia
> Capital: Mexico City
> Currency: Mexican peso
> President: Enrique Peña Nieto
> Official language: Spanish Language
> Government: Federal republic, Presidential system, Constitutional republic
> Population: 112,336,538 (2010) Instituto Nacional de Estadística y Geografía


Thank you, Curmudgeon - glad to see you haven't changed a bit!


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## TundraGreen

Since the North American Free Trade Agreement included Mexico, its location should have been apparent since 1986 when discussions that resulted in NAFTA started.


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## Isla Verde

FHBOY said:


> Thank you, Curmudgeon - glad to see you haven't changed a bit!


Not a curmudgeon, just someone (like me) who wanted to get the facts straight!


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## conklinwh

Isla Verde said:


> That's odd. I remember studying about Latin America back in elementary school and learning that Mexico was definitely not part of Central America. And don't try telling a Mexican that their country is part of Central America. I doubt that bit of misinformation would be appreciated !


Think was attempt at a little humor about the crack geography education that one gets in the US.

About equal to Columbus finding India!


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## Isla Verde

conklinwh said:


> Think was attempt at a little humor about the crack geography education that one gets in the US.
> 
> About equal to Columbus finding India!


I guess I'm showing my age here, but I do remember learning quite a bit about world geography when I was in school, though it was subsumed under the vague heading of social studies.


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## conklinwh

Isla Verde said:


> I guess I'm showing my age here, but I do remember learning quite a bit about world geography when I was in school, though it was subsumed under the vague heading of social studies.


All I remember was 11 years of US history/geography and one year of the rest of the world. A little backward to say the least!


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## Isla Verde

conklinwh said:


> All I remember was 11 years of US history/geography and one year of the rest of the world. A little backward to say the least!


Indeed! I remember that all of sixth grade was devoted to studying the history and geography of Latin America and 7th and 10th grade we studied world history and culture. Otherwise, it was all about the US.


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## conklinwh

Isla Verde said:


> Indeed! I remember that all of sixth grade was devoted to studying the history and geography of Latin America and 7th and 10th grade we studied world history and culture. Otherwise, it was all about the US.


I remember asking a teacher why we didn't study Latin America and he said if you want to study Latin America, take Spanish.

Only one year of world history but a year of civics down to county commissioners and mayor.


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## Isla Verde

conklinwh said:


> I remember asking a teacher why we didn't study Latin America and he said if you want to study Latin America, take Spanish.
> 
> Only one year of world history but a year of civics down to county commissioners and mayor.


So, did you take Spanish?


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## FHBOY

:director: Hey You Guys!

Isn't this just a bit of a HIJACK!?!?!? 



BTW - Ask many Gen Y or Milleniums to find places on the map - buena suerte!


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## Isla Verde

It looks like one of the mods (not me, though) has unhijacked FHBOY's thread. Please accept my apologies for getting the thread off-track (is that a mixed metaphor?).


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## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> It looks like one of the mods (not me, though) has unhijacked FHBOY's thread. Please accept my apologies for getting the thread off-track (is that a mixed metaphor?).


Just putting Mexico back where it belongs.


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## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> Just putting Mexico back where it belongs.


Thanks.


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## Hound Dog

Acrually, while it is true that Mexico is a part of North American, so is Central America as the North American continent extends from Canada to the Panamanian Colombia border and that land mass includes Mexico. Where we live in the Mexican state of Chiapas was a part of the Central American political entity known as Guatemala until it joined the Mexican republic after independence from Spain but since Central America is in North America, so what.


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## GARYJ65

Then again, Mexico IS in north America.


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## TundraGreen

GARYJ65 said:


> Then again, Mexico IS in north America.


Wikipedia agrees with Hound Dog. There are two continents, North and South America. Central America is: "the southernmost, isthmian portion of the North American continent, which connects with South America on the southeast.[3][4] When considered part of the unified continental model, it is considered a subcontinent. Central America consists of seven countries: Belize, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, and Panama."


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## Longford

Isla Verde said:


> I guess I'm showing my age here, but I do remember learning quite a bit about world geography when I was in school, though it was subsumed under the vague heading of social studies.


Same here. We discussed world geography ... in grade school.


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## Hound Dog

_


GARYJ65 said:



Then again, Mexico IS in north America.

Click to expand...

_As is Panama.

Game over.


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## PanamaJack

I am new to this forum but not to Mexico. I moved to Mexico City as a 10 year and have been here 40 years, with the exception of five years in Boston for college. However, I find it important that expats have a network of people who share things in common with them and if I can ever be of any help let me know. 

My first question on this forum pertains to this discussion. 

As North Americans or citizens of the U.S. of America we in grade school (before I left to Mexico City) were taught there were seven continents - North America, South America, Australia, Africa, Europe, Asia and Antarctica.
However, one of my best friends for the past 30 years is a British citizen I will call Blue (as in blue blood a longstanding joke with him). Blue insists that there are only six continents The Americas, Africa, Asia, Australia and Oceania, Europe and Antarctica. We have argued many times about this over beers.

Who is correct? Wikipedia is edited by anyone and everyone and I am not sure they count. In my short stint in U.S. grade school my teacher stressed the seven continents. I know this does not pertain directly to Mexico but if you go by Blue's theory then Mexico is in The Americas and so is Panama and not in North America, nor is the U.S. of A?


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## Isla Verde

PanamaJack said:


> I am new to this forum but not to Mexico. I moved to Mexico City as a 10 year and have been here 40 years, with the exception of five years in Boston for college. However, I find it important that expats have a network of people who share things in common with them and if I can ever be of any help let me know.
> 
> My first question on this forum pertains to this discussion.
> 
> As North Americans or citizens of the U.S. of America we in grade school (before I left to Mexico City) were taught there were seven continents - North America, South America, Australia, Africa, Europe, Asia and Antarctica.
> However, one of my best friends for the past 30 years is a British citizen I will call Blue (as in blue blood a longstanding joke with him). Blue insists that there are only six continents The Americas, Africa, Asia, Australia and Oceania, Europe and Antarctica. We have argued many times about this over beers.
> 
> Who is correct? Wikipedia is edited by anyone and everyone and I am not sure they count. In my short stint in U.S. grade school my teacher stressed the seven continents. I know this does not pertain directly to Mexico but if you go by Blue's theory then Mexico is in The Americas and so is Panama and not in North America, nor is the U.S. of A?


I've been coming to Mexico (and Mexico City) on a regular basis since 1966 but have only settled here permanently since 2007. It would be fun to get together some time or other and share observations and experiences with you.

As far as I know, schools in the US (don't know about Canada) have always taught that there are 7 continents, while schools in many other countries speak of only 6. It's not a matter of right or wrong, just a different way of looking at the world. Another difference: in Europe people are taught that Mexico is part of Central America, while in the US, they are not. It sounds like you and Blue will never come to an agreement about this fascinating topic, if for no other reason than that it gives you an excuse to down more beer as you argue about it !


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## PanamaJack

I honestly believe that Blue and I have forgotten what the argument is all about and our lovely wives - two wonderful Mexican beauties - have given up asking!!!! I would very much like to get together with you IV. I am out of the city for the next two weeks - long Easter break - but when I return it would be an honor to meet and chat with someone how has been here longer than I. I first arrived in 1973. In what part of the city do you reside? 

About the continents, I truthfully believe there should be both a North and South America it seems more logical than putting such large land masses together into one category.


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## Isla Verde

PanamaJack said:


> I honestly believe that Blue and I have forgotten what the argument is all about and our lovely wives - two wonderful Mexican beauties - have given up asking!!!! I would very much like to get together with you IV. I am out of the city for the next two weeks - long Easter break - but when I return it would be an honor to meet and chat with someone how has been here longer than I. I first arrived in 1973. In what part of the city do you reside?


I first came to Mexico and Mexico City in the summer of 1966 to study at the UNAM (I was a Spanish major). At that time, the city was much, much smaller and easier to deal with. The Metro had not yet been built, and it was still "la región más transparente". I live in the colonia Cuauhtémoc a few blocks in back of the US Embassy.


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## PanamaJack

Isla Verde said:


> PanamaJack said:
> 
> 
> 
> I honestly believe that Blue and I have forgotten what the argument is all about and our lovely wives - two wonderful Mexican beauties - have given up asking!!!! I would very much like to get together with you IV. I am out of the city for the next two weeks - long Easter break - but when I return it would be an honor to meet and chat with someone how has been here longer than I. I first arrived in 1973. In what part of the city do you reside?
> [/QUOTE
> 
> I first came to Mexico and Mexico City in the summer of 1966 to study at the UNAM (I was a Spanish major). At that time, the city was much, much smaller and easier to deal with. The Metro had not yet been built, and it was still "la región más transparente". I live in the colonia Cuauhtémoc a few blocks in back of the US Embassy.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a home in Los Alpes, but before you go and a judge me!!! It is where my dad bought a long long time ago. Prior to the big weathly Mexicans building huge homes and some even losing them, before condos came into the area. It is a respectable home on a huge, huge lot, which is more important than the home - lots of green space!!! I also lived for many years near Colonia Juarez and the Zona Rosa. I am an only child as I believe dad did not want to leave behind multiple kids when he went away to work in an embassy. My mother and I never traveled with him after I was born, so the house naturally became mine when he passed. It certainly is something I could NEVER afford nor would want, as it is currently for sale!!!!!
Click to expand...


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## alexdz

PanamaJack said:


> ...
> As North Americans or citizens of the U.S. of America we in grade school (before I left to Mexico City) were taught there were seven continents - North America, South America, Australia, Africa, Europe, Asia and Antarctica.
> However, one of my best friends for the past 30 years is a British citizen I will call Blue (as in blue blood a longstanding joke with him). Blue insists that there are only six continents The Americas, Africa, Asia, Australia and Oceania, Europe and Antarctica. We have argued many times about this over beers.
> 
> Who is correct? Wikipedia is edited by anyone and everyone and I am not sure they count. In my short stint in U.S. grade school my teacher stressed the seven continents. I know this does not pertain directly to Mexico but if you go by Blue's theory then Mexico is in The Americas and so is Panama and not in North America, nor is the U.S. of A?


So Blue accepts that Europe and Asia (with their humongous dirt border) are separate continents, but not North and South America? He really must be a blue blood, he's showing signs of inbreeding. 



BTW, really? Is Mexico's presence on North America really a mystery to people? I know we US gringos can be pretty bad at geography but please!


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## Isla Verde

PanamaJack said:


> Isla Verde said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a home in Los Alpes, but before you go and a judge me!!! It is where my dad bought a long long time ago. Prior to the big weathly Mexicans building huge homes and some even losing them, before condos came into the area. It is a respectable home on a huge, huge lot, which is more important than the home - lots of green space!!! I also lived for many years near Colonia Juarez and the Zona Rosa. I am an only child as I believe dad did not want to leave behind multiple kids when he went away to work in an embassy. My mother and I never traveled with him after I was born, so the house naturally became mine when he passed. It certainly is something I could NEVER afford nor would want, as it is currently for sale!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Los Alpes is one of those exclusive parts of the DF I've never been to. What's it like living there, apart from the lovely green space surrounding your home? Are the neighbors friendly, or mostly invisible? I certainly wouldn't judge you harshly for living where you do. When you sell the home, where are you and your wife thinking of moving to?
Click to expand...


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## joaquinx

How can Europe and Asia be separate continents? Where is the dividing line? If the Americas are one continent then Africa and Asia are one - Afroasia. There is a Central America just as there is an Eastern Europe and Southeast Asia.


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## PanamaJack

alexdz said:


> So Blue accepts that Europe and Asia (with their humongous dirt border) are separate continents, but not North and South America? He really must be a blue blood, he's showing signs of inbreeding.
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, really? Is Mexico's presence on North America really a mystery to people? I know we US gringos can be pretty bad at geography but please!


I cannot answer your question about Mexico being a part of NA being a mystery, but I know all of my Mexican friends call me their brother since we are all North Americans. Blue is quite the blue blood but I would not go so far to say it is due to inbreeding, it may be due to his upbringing that tells him first England then everything else is a distant second.


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## alexdz

joaquinx said:


> How can Europe and Asia be separate continents? Where is the dividing line? If the Americas are one continent then Africa and Asia are one - Afroasia. There is a Central America just as there is an Eastern Europe and Southeast Asia.


So I looked at the wiki page for "continents" and find that there are actually multiple models for defining such things, and one actually does combine Africa-Europe-Asia into a single continent. That one doesn't seem to be actually used much but interestingly there is a six-continent model that combines the Americas, and that one is apparently commonly used in Spanish-speaking countries and parts of Europe. I don't get the logic of leaving Europe and Asia separate when they're obviously the same land mass while combining the Americas with that tiny connection, but there it is. I suppose it may be some Euro-centric view of the world.

So Blue may not be completely wrong after all, depending on what they teach in Britain.


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## PanamaJack

ISLA VERDE,
When dad was alive I spent little time there and much less with the neighbors. When he retired he had many friends in the area. He actually knew Felipe Calderon quite well. He has a home there. 

I cannot answer you IV. I despise bodyguards and all the fanfare with big cars and there are plenty of them there. I prefer my Volkswagen SUV and a low profile. Once the home is sold I would like to buy an old building in the an area around Colonia Juarez, Colonia San Rafael an have it refurbised into loft apartments of which we would live in one. Of course I would not touch anything historical.

I will miss the huge property, but I may buy a small farm and start growing vegetables and raising pigs. My wife is an agronomist and is working with an NGO here that is helping to find better ways to grow certain veggies. I thought I could put her to use on a small farm and maybe we could become self sufficient!:fingerscrossed:


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## Isla Verde

PanamaJack said:


> ISLA VERDE,
> When dad was alive I spent little time there and much less with the neighbors. When he retired he had many friends in the area. He actually knew Felipe Calderon quite well. He has a home there.
> 
> I cannot answer you IV. I despise bodyguards and all the fanfare with big cars and there are plenty of them there. I prefer my Volkswagen SUV and a low profile. Once the home is sold I would like to buy an old building in the an area around Colonia Juarez, Colonia San Rafael an have it refurbised into loft apartments of which we would live in one. Of course I would not touch anything historical.
> 
> I will miss the huge property, but I may buy a small farm and start growing vegetables and raising pigs. My wife is an agronomist and is working with an NGO here that is helping to find better ways to grow certain veggies. I thought I could put her to use on a small farm and maybe we could become self sufficient!:fingerscrossed:


Your plans sound very interesting. I walk through San Rafael when I have an appointment with my doctor. There are many interesting old buildings there in need of restoration and refurbishment. By the way, many years ago I taught English in the Centro de Idiomas at the Colegio de Postgraduados then in Chapingo, now in Montecillos. Is that where your wife studied?


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## PanamaJack

Isla Verde said:


> Your plans sound very interesting. I walk through San Rafael when I have an appointment with my doctor. There are many interesting old buildings there in need of restoration and refurbishment. By the way, many years ago I taught English in the Centro de Idiomas at the Colegio de Postgraduados then in Chapingo, now in Montecillos. Is that where your wife studied?


Yes, she did her undergraduate work at UACH and post grad at OSU - Oklahoma State University. The two schools are affiliated in some way. Yes, that is my idea to have someone refurbish a old building and attract young, hardworking professionals to live and play in the area. Its an artsy area and my wife and I have many friends who live an alternative lifestyle and like the area and one of them is her brother who would probably do all the interior design for the project. But i am getting why ahead of myself. Step by step. As dad once said - don't count your chickens before they hatch or you might end up with yolk on your face or something to that extent.


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## Isla Verde

PanamaJack said:


> Yes, she did her undergraduate work at UACH and post grad at OSU - Oklahoma State University. The two schools are affiliated in some way. Yes, that is my idea to have someone refurbish a old building and attract young, hardworking professionals to live and play in the area. Its an artsy area and my wife and I have many friends who live an alternative lifestyle and like the area and one of them is her brother who would probably do all the interior design for the project. But i am getting why ahead of myself. Step by step. As dad once said - don't count your chickens before they hatch or you might end up with yolk on your face or something to that extent.


The UACH and the Colegio de Postgraduados were and are two separate schools and in some ways were rivals, at least when I was there in the late 1970s. To me San Rafael still looks very much like a _barrio popular_. I guess I've missed its artsy areas, except for El Eco, for whom I once did some translation work. Where does your brother-in-law live in San Rafael?


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## PanamaJack

Isla Verde said:


> The UACH and the Colegio de Postgraduados were and are two separate schools and in some ways were rivals, at least when I was there in the late 1970s. To me San Rafael still looks very much like a _barrio popular_. I guess I've missed its artsy areas, except for El Eco, for whom I once did some translation work. Where does your brother-in-law live in San Rafael?


Pablo actually lives in Santa Maria La Ribera, which I used to like. My mother lived there as a teenager when her dad represented Coca Cola in Mexico. However, since the 1985 quake the colonia has gone down hill even though some areas are still nice. 

My wife wanted to combine her Mexican undergraduate degree with a Masters from the U.S. and chose OSU because of its affliation with UACH. 

You may have missed the artsy scene because it is still somewhat underground. But we hope to help change that.

Check this article out...http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/24/t...el-in-mexico-city-is-on-the-upswing.html?_r=0


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## Isla Verde

PanamaJack said:


> Pablo actually lives in Santa Maria La Ribera, which I used to like. My mother lived there as a teenager when her dad represented Coca Cola in Mexico. However, since the 1985 quake the colonia has gone down hill even though some areas are still nice.
> 
> My wife wanted to combine her Mexican undergraduate degree with a Masters from the U.S. and chose OSU because of its affliation with UACH.
> 
> You may have missed the artsy scene because it is still somewhat underground. But we hope to help change that.
> 
> Check this article out...http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/24/t...el-in-mexico-city-is-on-the-upswing.html?_r=0


Agreed that Santa María La Ribera has seen much better days. Maybe artists will help renew it just as they're trying to do in San Rafael. 

Your wife was wise to get her Masters in the States, if for no other reason than it would broaden her horizons. I imagine that she is bilingual, as you must also be.

Thanks for the link. None of the streets named in the article are familiar to me, so I'll have consult my Guía Roji before setting out to visit the galleries mentioned in the article.


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## PanamaJack

Isla Verde said:


> Agreed that Santa María La Ribera has seen much better days. Maybe artists will help renew it just as they're trying to do in San Rafael.
> 
> Your wife was wise to get her Masters in the States, if for no other reason than it would broaden her horizons. I imagine that she is bilingual, as you must also be.
> 
> Thanks for the link. None of the streets named in the article are familiar to me, so I'll have consult my Guía Roji before setting out to visit the galleries mentioned in the article.


I hope both Santa Maria and Rafael are cleaned up, restored and attract more galleries, restaurants and other businesses. All we can do is our small part and hope for the best.

Yes, my wife and I are fluent in both English and Spanish, but we prefer to speak Spanish. I met her when I returned from Boston and living back in the U.S. for five years I lost some of my Spanish so I wanted to speak only Spanish with her and that has carried on ever since. 

So what do you do with your free time? Do you walk around your neighborhood freely without any worries? Do you return to the U.S. regularly? I love the U.S. but Mexico is home and having lived here so long I am used to the traditions and different customs that I have grown to love. My buddies from school are all Mexicans except Blue. I am close to them and their familes. Actually my wife is a first cousin of one of my best friends. 

Since you have lived in Mexico so long, are you a dual citizen? I became one a few years after getting married, but I hold onto my American passport as overall it opens so many more doors internationally.


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## Isla Verde

PanamaJack said:


> I hope both Santa Maria and Rafael are cleaned up, restored and attract more galleries, restaurants and other businesses. All we can do is our small part and hope for the best. That would be wonderful! I love being able to walk to where I want to go instead of taking public transportation. I appreciate the excellent (and affordable) system of public transportation in the city, but walking is my preferred way to get around!
> 
> Yes, my wife and I are fluent in both English and Spanish, but we prefer to speak Spanish. I met her when I returned from Boston and living back in the U.S. for five years I lost some of my Spanish so I wanted to speak only Spanish with her and that has carried on ever since. When we get together, would you prefer to speak English or Spanish?
> 
> So what do you do with your free time? I read a lot, practice photography, go to movies at the Lumiere or Diana theaters, go to museums,take an occasional diplomado at the MNA, _y cosas por el estilo_. Do you walk around your neighborhood freely without any worries? Sure. Though usually not after 11 pm. I live in a safe area regularly patrolled by very pleasant police officers.Do you return to the U.S. regularly? I'm on a somewhat limited budget, so I only go back to the States to see my mother and some friends once a year. However, since I have lots of nifty friends that like to travel, I receive visits from them from time to time. I love the U.S. but Mexico is home and having lived here so long I am used to the traditions and different customs that I have grown to love. My buddies from school are all Mexicans except Blue. I am close to them and their familes. Actually my wife is a first cousin of one of my best friends. That's not surprising in Mexico. Family alliances are often forged between friends.
> 
> Since you have lived in Mexico so long, are you a dual citizen? Not yet. I've only been here this time since 2007, and it takes longer than that to become eligible for citizenship. Next month I'm planning on changing to Residente Permanente and perhaps in a few years I'll look into become a dual citizen. I became one a few years after getting married, but I hold onto my American passport as overall it opens so many more doors internationally.


Cheers!


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## PanamaJack

Isla Verde said:


> Cheers!


English will be the language of choice. We out number my wife two to one and this is a democracy we live in. Sounds like you enjoy where you live and are confident enough to walk around and take public transportation. I admire women who will do that alone as this is a VERY VERY VERY big macho society. Good for you.


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## Isla Verde

PanamaJack said:


> English will be the language of choice. We out number my wife two to one and this is a democracy we live in. Sounds like you enjoy where you live and are confident enough to walk around and take public transportation. I admire women who will do that alone as this is a VERY VERY VERY big macho society. Good for you.


Even when I was in my twenties, I never had any problems living in Mexico City. When I was walking around, I just put on my mental "blinders" and ignored looks from unappetizing men on the street. Now that I'm "of a certain age", the macho quality of Mexican society doesn't have much to do with me anymore, except on the bus when men (usually guys young enough to be my sons) get up and give me their seats. I really think you're exaggerating the macho quality of Mexican society, but that's just my take on things.


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## PanamaJack

Isla Verde said:


> Even when I was in my twenties, I never had any problems living in Mexico City. When I was walking around, I just put on my mental "blinders" and ignored looks from unappetizing men on the street. Now that I'm "of a certain age", the macho quality of Mexican society doesn't have much to do with me anymore, except on the bus when men (usually guys young enough to be my sons) get up and give me their seats. I really think you're exaggerating the macho quality of Mexican society, but that's just my take on things.


It may not seem so macho, but you do not live in a household with Mexicans. The males dominate the household, are served first, make the decisions and generally the household revolves around them. Mothers spoils their boys and do everything for them. Of course macho might not be the correct term but it is a male dominated society. That is why I said how I admired you for living alone and getting out on your own.


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## Isla Verde

PanamaJack said:


> It may not seem so macho, but you do not live in a household with Mexicans. The males dominate the household, are served first, make the decisions and generally the household revolves around them. Mothers spoils their boys and do everything for them. Of course macho might not be the correct term but it is a male dominated society. That is why I said how I admired you for living alone and getting out on your own.


The way you describe the typical Mexican family dynamics was certainly true in the past. Do you think it's still true today, especially in places like Mexico City, at least among the educated middle and upper classes? I can think of several young Mexican women I know, former students of mine, whose lives seem to differ from this pattern. The fact that I have lived here as a single woman has probably helped me deal with this, as you put it, male-dominated society. I doubt I would have been so happy living here if I had married a Mexican.


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## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> The way you describe the typical Mexican family dynamics was certainly true in the past. Do you think it's still true today, especially in places like Mexico City, at least among the educated middle and upper classes? I can think of several young Mexican women I know, former students of mine, whose lives seem to differ from this pattern. The fact that I have lived here as a single woman has probably helped me deal with this, as you put it, male-dominated society. I doubt I would have been so happy living here if I had married a Mexican.


I think you hit the nail on the head by asking about the educated middle/upper classes. I have a number of friends in that category and the dynamics in those households is different from the traditional machismo environment. On the other hand, I know other families where the traditional roles of the sexes still prevails.


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## PanamaJack

TundraGreen said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head by asking about the educated middle/upper classes. I have a number of friends in that category and the dynamics in those households is different from the traditional machismo environment. On the other hand, I know other families where the traditional roles of the sexes still prevails.


Tundra and Isla Verde
You are both right in the fact that things have changed somewhat in the upper middle class and above, but I am not convinced it is that much. My wife, even though she is a professional with a Masters degree makes sure I am number one, taken care of and when we visit her family I can see how she "changes" when around her brothers. This is a family of six (four boys and two girls), with four having a college education and with two having a masters and that still exists. I think it depends on if the previous generation is still present. My in-laws are alive and my mother-in-law practically bows when my father in law enters the room. That influences the children. Without them then the next generation takes over. 

However, many friends I have are middle class or even below on an economic scale and the male-dominated society is in full bloom. It is strange for me because I am an only child and spent more time in homes of middle class or well to do Mexicans than my own home and I was treated as a member of their family and was served before the girls at the table and was treated with respect even when daughters were older than me. GO FIGURE. But one thing is for sure. Most expats are on the outside looking in and if you visit friends homes you really are not getting the 100% true version of the family hierarchy as they are acting differently with guests around. It may be subtle but its is different, on this believe me. I have been on both sides of the coins. In the begining I was the ****** classmate of Pedro or Pablo, but after a while I was mijo or hermano and treated like brothers or sons are treated.


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## Isla Verde

PanamaJack said:


> Tundra and Isla Verde
> You are both right in the fact that things have changed somewhat in the upper middle class and above, but I am not convinced it is that much. My wife, even though she is a professional with a Masters degree makes sure I am number one, taken care of and when we visit her family I can see how she "changes" when around her brothers. This is a family of six (four boys and two girls), with four having a college education and with two having a masters and that still exists. I think it depends on if the previous generation is still present. My in-laws are alive and my mother-in-law practically bows when my father in law enters the room. That influences the children. Without them then the next generation takes over.
> 
> However, many friends I have are middle class or even below on an economic scale and the male-dominated society is in full bloom. It is strange for me because I am an only child and spent more time in homes of middle class or well to do Mexicans than my own home and I was treated as a member of their family and was served before the girls at the table and was treated with respect even when daughters were older than me. GO FIGURE. But one thing is for sure. Most expats are on the outside looking in and if you visit friends homes you really are not getting the 100% true version of the family hierarchy as they are acting differently with guests around. It may be subtle but its is different, on this believe me. I have been on both sides of the coins. In the begining I was the ****** classmate of Pedro or Pablo, but after a while I was mijo or hermano and treated like brothers or sons are treated.


That's a depressing picture you paint. Obviously the male members of the family like this state of affairs and wouldn't enjoy changes in their privileged status within the family structure. Do you like being treated as "number one" by your wife? No need to answer this question on a public forum, of course.


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## Mr. P Mosh

Well, a Mexican perspective on geography here. 

In Mexico we learn the model of 6 continents (just like the 5 rings on the Olympic flag + the Antartica).

Here we call it "América", never "las Américas", because of this, we never call the US like "América" in Spanish (even thought some people do for influence of the tv or experiences living in the US).

Mexico is in North America, even thought sometimes we use "norteamericanos" as a way to call US citizens (really, United States of America is a very troublesome name when it comes to say nationality). Just Chiapas and, maybe, the Yucatan peninsula could be considerated Central American, even though, in general, we would correct someone calling us central Americans or _centroamericanos_ (Spaniards and South Americans also have problems with this stuff). Still, I guess, the ones who feel more offended when someone call us Central Americans are the Central Americans themselves.


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## PanamaJack

Isla Verde said:


> That's a depressing picture you paint. Obviously the male members of the family like this state of affairs and wouldn't enjoy changes in their privileged status within the family structure. Do you like being treated as "number one" by your wife? No need to answer this question on a public forum, of course.


To answer your question honestly it would be a resounding YES. Any man, in my opinion would be lying if he said he did not like being treated as number one. The important part is not taking advantage of that. Most Mexicans do not know the difference unless they were exposed to another culture growing up, where as I was at home with mom and dad. Sure it takes getting used to but I am served at home first even if my in-laws are visiting. They are traditions that we as Americans might not understand or accept as being correct, fair or right, but I have seen for decades and adapted to them.

Of course, you would have to ask my wife, but I have not adapted to the certain ways here. I wash dishes, cook, iron clothes, open the door for women and all that good stuff. Both mom and dad taught me that.


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## alexdz

Isla Verde said:


> That's a depressing picture you paint. Obviously the male members of the family like this state of affairs and wouldn't enjoy changes in their privileged status within the family structure. Do you like being treated as "number one" by your wife? No need to answer this question on a public forum, of course.


As I'm sure you're all aware the "machismo" thing isn't particularly Mexican, it's Latin. I'm Puerto Rican and as the oldest male was treated as the "golden child" while growing up, and even today by my mother and sisters. It drove my first wife (Irish-American) insane when we'd visit my family and she saw how they treated me! When I was young I took an interest in cooking and my father told me that I didn't need to worry about learning because my mother would cook for me and then my wife would cook for me. Having stayed single until my 30's and then twice divorced, that advice condemned me to a lifetime of eating crappy food. Of course my family were peasants, so I can't speak for what the upper strata were like.

Anyway, of course we love being treated like we're Numero Uno--we're human aren't we? And as far as it being depressing for the women I doubt that's the case. Barring abuse and mistreatment most people are happiest fitting into their assigned and familiar roles in society and it doesn't matter so much what those roles are as long as they're treated with dignity and respect--which machismo doesn't preclude. You really think American women are so much happier with their independence? Don't get me wrong, everyone's entitled to their independence, but in the transition state we're in (nuclear family to ... what?) I don't see that we're particularly happy, and most global surveys list us as being far down the list in that regard. The only ones that don't are the surveys that focus on income as a primary factor.

BTW, if it's any consolation being the golden child doesn't exempt you from a quality ass beating. If my experience is any indication, it made you the primary target--expectations are high.


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## mickisue1

PanamaJack said:


> To answer your question honestly it would be a resounding YES. Any man, in my opinion would be lying if he said he did not like being treated as number one. The important part is not taking advantage of that. Most Mexicans do not know the difference unless they were exposed to another culture growing up, where as I was at home with mom and dad. Sure it takes getting used to but I am served at home first even if my in-laws are visiting. They are traditions that we as Americans might not understand or accept as being correct, fair or right, but I have seen for decades and adapted to them.
> 
> Of course, you would have to ask my wife, but I have not adapted to the certain ways here. I wash dishes, cook, iron clothes, open the door for women and all that good stuff. Both mom and dad taught me that.


I would disagree with your assumption, and I say this as the mother of three grown sons. Everyone likes being the king or queen--for a while. But a sense of fairness will eventually lead many to the understanding that there is inherent imbalance in a system where one group takes precedence simply by accident of gender, and it's the members of the privileged group who need to both speak out and stop accepting their privileged status.

My dad finally realized what a toll taking care of all the physical and emotional needs for a family of eight had taken on my mom, when she suffered a serious back injury, and he had to take over all the "stooping" chores, like bedmaking, laundry and dealing with the dishwasher. This was after we were all grown, so we daughters made sure to point out how much greater the chore was when it was being done for eight, not two.

If a man who was born into in what was a doubly classist family--gender and societal strata were observed--can become a feminist, then so can a macho working class Mexican. I think that you will find many who have.

We can talk anecdote all day long, in relation to societal behavior. But as the old saying goes, "The plural of anecdote is not data."

The data shows that both US and Mexican families are becoming more egalitarian. The fact that the US is ahead of MX in this doesn't mean that MX isn't moving in the same direction.

There are certainly still class divisions in the beliefs about gender roles in the US, as well, but they are becoming the exception, across classes. This was certainly not the case when Isla and I were young. To have such a dramatic change in just a generation and a half is amazing.


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## TundraGreen

alexdz said:


> …Anyway, of course we love being treated like we're Numero Uno--we're human aren't we? And as far as it being depressing for the women I doubt that's the case. Barring abuse and mistreatment most people are happiest fitting into their assigned and familiar roles in society and it doesn't matter so much what those roles are as long as they're treated with dignity and respect--which machismo doesn't preclude.…


That sounds to me similar to what slave holders in the US south use to argue: that slaves were well cared for and happy to be taken care of.


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## alexdz

TundraGreen said:


> That sounds to me similar to what slave holders in the US south use to argue: that slaves were well cared for and happy to be taken care of.


Then perhaps you don't understand the words dignity and respect...


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## RVGRINGO

It appears that the fuse has been lit! Hissssssssssssssssssssssssss............


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## Isla Verde

alexdz said:


> Then perhaps you don't understand the words dignity and respect...


You are responding to Tundra Green's comment about a common rationalization for slavery in the US. What do dignity and respect have to do with slavery?


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## mickisue1

alexdz said:


> Then perhaps you don't understand the words dignity and respect...


Both of those words imply the ability to change the terms under which one lives one's life. Neither in slavery, nor in gender stratified societies, is that possible.

Women in the US had to fight, not only law, but the belief systems that held that women did not have the mental capacity to make such important decisions, to get the vote. I remember when black quarterbacks in football and pitchers in baseball were a rarity, because it was arrogantly assumed that those positions required more mental capacity than black athletes had.

Such beliefs about any group of people, where it's assumed that the absence of physical pain is evidence of contentment, have, over and over, been shown to be false.

Tell your beliefs about being treated with dignity and respect to the women in Pakistan.


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## Isla Verde

mickisue1 said:


> Both of those words imply the ability to change the terms under which one lives one's life. Neither in slavery, nor in gender stratified societies, is that possible.
> 
> Women in the US had to fight, not only law, but the belief systems that held that women did not have the mental capacity to make such important decisions, to get the vote. I remember when black quarterbacks in football and pitchers in baseball were a rarity, because it was arrogantly assumed that those positions required more mental capacity than black athletes had.
> 
> Such beliefs about any group of people, where it's assumed that the absence of physical pain is evidence of contentment, have, over and over, been shown to be false.
> 
> Tell your beliefs about being treated with dignity and respect to the women in Pakistan.


Are you implying that the way women are treated in Mexican society is in any way equivalent to how they are treated in Pakistan?


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## TundraGreen

alexdz said:


> Then perhaps you don't understand the words dignity and respect...


In my humble opinion, dignified and respectful treatment is little compensation for restricted opportunities for education, work, or role in society.


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## kcowan

Numero Uno also becomes the Jefe in a family and that carries onerous financial responsibilities. A friend just went through that when his youngest daughter got married.

Household duties were handled capably by their staff.


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## Isla Verde

kcowan said:


> Numero Uno also becomes the Jefe in a family and that carries onerous financial responsibilities. A friend just went through that when his youngest daughter got married.
> 
> Household duties were handled capably by their staff.


I know of a number of younger Mexican families where both the husband and wife have jobs that support the family financially. In a few cases, the wife earns more than the husband. I also know of families where (gasp!) the husband cooks and shares household chores with his wife. These are generally (but not solely) middle-class, educated people.


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## TundraGreen

Isla Verde said:


> I know of a number of younger Mexican families where both the husband and wife have jobs that support the family financially. In a few cases, the wife earns more than the husband. I also know of families where (gasp!) the husband cooks and shares household chores with his wife. These are generally (but not solely) middle-class, educated people.


I lived with a Mexican family of six in Quéretaro: A mother, father, two college-age sons, the maternal grandmother and maternal great grandmother. The two kids were both in college, the grandmother and great grandmother were both retired. The mother worked full-time. And the father kept house for all seven of us full-time, doing all of the cooking, cleaning and washing.


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## alexdz

Isla Verde said:


> You are responding to Tundra Green's comment about a common rationalization for slavery in the US. What do dignity and respect have to do with slavery?


Obviously I didn't make myself clear. Dignity and respect have nothing to do with slavery, which is why equating my comments with the old justifications for the practice is ridiculous. Perhaps it is that people are equating the machismo thing with a loss of dignity and respect to women, which is a matter of perspective. You may not like it because of the culture you come from, but it sure isn't by definition an inherently abusive practice.

Having said that, it is an unequal distribution of power and as we all know, power corrupts, so just like anything and anywhere else there are plenty of negative consequences. My original point was that in and of itself, that culture doesn't produce women who are more depressed than otherwise. Of course that kind of thing is hard to judge, like trying to understand why Muslim women would fight for the right to wear a burqa. Or trying to understand the Egyptian woman I dated a couple of years ago who tried to justify the ancient practice of killing women who proved to not be virgins on their wedding night--and she was Christian.

Finally, I wasn't trying to justify the practice, I thought I was clear that even though it's nice to be treated like the golden child every now and then, it clearly didn't work out for me. Just ask my ex-wives.


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## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> I lived with a Mexican family of six in Quéretaro: A mother, father, two college-age sons, the maternal grandmother and maternal great grandmother. The two kids were both in college, the grandmother and great grandmother were both retired. The mother worked full-time. And the father kept house for all seven of us full-time, doing all of the cooking, cleaning and washing.


Thanks for posting this illuminating (and encouraging) anecdote!


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## mickisue1

Isla Verde said:


> Are you implying that the way women are treated in Mexican society is in any way equivalent to how they are treated in Pakistan?


Not to the extent, of course. But there are segments of US society, just as in MX and in Pakistan, where the belief that the woman is the "subject" of the husband is held to be a basic tenet of the rules of life.

Are you familiar with the "quiverful" movement? It's terrifying. And it's got a substantial enough following in the US that it's even more terrifying.


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## Isla Verde

mickisue1 said:


> Not to the extent, of course. But there are segments of US society, just as in MX and in Pakistan, where the belief that the woman is the "subject" of the husband is held to be a basic tenet of the rules of life.
> 
> Are you familiar with the "quiverful" movement? It's terrifying. And it's got a substantial enough following in the US that it's even more terrifying.


Agreed. And for some reason, the subordination of the wife to the husband is usually part of fundamentalist religious tenets.

I've never heard of the "quiverful" movement - please explain.


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## mickisue1

It's a conservative Christian organization that holds, among other beliefs, that god will only give you as many children as you can handle, so you should have as many as you are given--the "quiver full" of kids. (I'd spelled it wrong.) Even natural family planning is seen as trying to manipulate one's fertility, and contraception as a form of abortion.

There's a show on TLC about a family that's part of the movement. The mother nearly died in her last pregnancy, and to date, they have 19 kids. The 20th died, having been born extremely prematurely. The show used to be called "17 Kids and Counting", now it's "19 and Counting". They have adult children who are following in their footsteps.

Here is the Wikipedia entry on the movement. Quiverfull - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## RVGRINGO

Conservative measures must be taken immediately! The best and oldest is submersion in olive oil and vinegar.


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## tepetapan

mickisue1 said:


> It's a conservative Christian organization that holds, among other beliefs, that god will only give you as many children as you can handle, so you should have as many as you are given--the "quiver full" of kids. (I'd spelled it wrong.) Even natural family planning is seen as trying to manipulate one's fertility, and contraception as a form of abortion.
> 
> There's a show on TLC about a family that's part of the movement. The mother nearly died in her last pregnancy, and to date, they have 19 kids. The 20th died, having been born extremely prematurely. The show used to be called "17 Kids and Counting", now it's "19 and Counting". They have adult children who are following in their footsteps.
> 
> Here is the Wikipedia entry on the movement. Quiverfull - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


you know the old saying. " You can´t cure stupid"


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## PanamaJack

Wow I stepped out for a few hours and this thread has really taken a turn. First of all I disagree with Mickisue. You cannot compare your family structure to a Mexican family. I have lived in this country for nearly 40 years and have been in homes with dirt floors and in the home of the President Felipe Calderon and every other type in between. The vast majority of families treat the men, especially the oldest like "el rey de la familia." It has nothing to do with nor can it be compared to slavery as the women, and I know because I married one, are part and parcel of the custom. My wife has forgotten more than I will every know in my lifetime, but that does not stop her from making sure my shirts are ironed and my dinner is cooked. If she is out with her NGO she will make sure that someone in her family i.e. sister, cousin, niece comes to our home to prepare dinner for me.

I know you do not understand and never will, my American friends do not understand and cannot believe their eyes, but that is how it is. My highly educated agronomist of a wife still to this day puts me first before everything else, of course it helps that I have not shut any doors and given her the choice of studying and making a career because when she wears pants she puts them on one leg at a time just like me and that makes her my equal. 

Tundra said or someone said they lived with a family in Qrto. well I respect what he says but that is the exception and not the rule. 

Mickisue another thing I must comment on is that I noticed it says you live in the USA. I am not sure if you visit Mexico or not or have experience living amongst Mexican familes, but you really cannot compare the makeup of an american family with that of a Mexican family. And also black quarterbacks, they are few and far between in the NFL do not last more than two or three years because they tend to be rushers as well as passers and get injured more often. To this day, unless I am completely wrong and I have been known to be in the past, the only black QB to ever win the MVP of a Super Bowl was Doug Williams. Look at Cam Newton, he excelled as a rookie and the sophomore jinx nailed him last year. Robert Griffin III had an excellent year but went down injured.


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## Isla Verde

PanamaJack said:


> Wow I stepped out for a few hours and this thread has really taken a turn. First of all I disagree with Mickisue. You cannot compare your family structure to a Mexican family. I have lived in this country for nearly 40 years and have been in homes with dirt floors and in the home of the President Felipe Calderon and every other type in between. The vast majority of families treat the men, especially the oldest like "el rey de la familia." It has nothing to do with nor can it be compared to slavery as the women, and I know because I married one, are part and parcel of the custom. My wife has forgotten more than I will every know in my lifetime, but that does not stop her from making sure my shirts are ironed and my dinner is cooked. If she is out with her NGO she will make sure that someone in her family i.e. sister, cousin, niece comes to our home to prepare dinner for me.


I will bit my tongue and just say that I think it's a pity that a grown man can't prepare his own dinner from time to time. On the other hand, your detailed description of your marriage to a Mexican woman confirms my belief that there's no way I could ever have handled being married to a Mexican man!


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## TundraGreen

PanamaJack said:


> Wow I stepped out for a few hours and this thread has really taken a turn. First of all I disagree with Mickisue. You cannot compare your family structure to a Mexican family. I have lived in this country for nearly 40 years and have been in homes with dirt floors and in the home of the President Felipe Calderon and every other type in between. The vast majority of families treat the men, especially the oldest like "el rey de la familia." It has nothing to do with nor can it be compared to slavery as the women, and I know because I married one, are part and parcel of the custom. My wife has forgotten more than I will every know in my lifetime, but that does not stop her from making sure my shirts are ironed and my dinner is cooked. If she is out with her NGO she will make sure that someone in her family i.e. sister, cousin, niece comes to our home to prepare dinner for me.
> 
> I know you do not understand and never will, my American friends do not understand and cannot believe their eyes, but that is how it is. My highly educated agronomist of a wife still to this day puts me first before everything else, of course it helps that I have not shut any doors and given her the choice of studying and making a career because when she wears pants she puts them on one leg at a time just like me and that makes her my equal.
> 
> Tundra said or someone said they lived with a family in Qrto. well I respect what he says but that is the exception and not the rule.
> 
> Mickisue another thing I must comment on is that I noticed it says you live in the USA. I am not sure if you visit Mexico or not or have experience living amongst Mexican familes, but you really cannot compare the makeup of an american family with that of a Mexican family. And also black quarterbacks, they are few and far between in the NFL do not last more than two or three years because they tend to be rushers as well as passers and get injured more often. To this day, unless I am completely wrong and I have been known to be in the past, the only black QB to ever win the MVP of a Super Bowl was Doug Williams. Look at Cam Newton, he excelled as a rookie and the sophomore jinx nailed him last year. Robert Griffin III had an excellent year but went down injured.


You are describing how it is. That is not necessarily how it could be, nor necessarily how it should be. Are there few black quarterbacks because they are less competent or because the NFL has not gotten past its racist past?

The fact that women and men are treated differently in Mexican society may be a fact of life in most families (notwithstanding an occasional counter example). But that different treatment extends into the workplace where women are not given the same opportunities that men are. 

You made the statement earlier that the differences are fine and have no negative consequences as long as everyone is treated with dignity and respect. I don't agree that there are no consequences.


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## PanamaJack

Isla Verde said:


> I will bit my tongue and just say that I think it's a pity that a grown man can't prepare his own dinner from time to time. On the other hand, your detailed description of your marriage to a Mexican woman confirms my belief that there's no way I could ever have handled being married to a Mexican man!


ISLA VERDE,
Your comment surprises me. Did I ever say I could not cook for myself. My mother would be ashamed of me if anyone ever thought this grown man could not cook. 

One reason I want to refurbish a building is to open shops on the first floor galleries and of course restaurants. I have owned four in my life time thus far and I am happiest in the kitchen. I was just expressing to you what my wife worries about. She does not want me working all day and then come home to cook dinner. That is the way she is and I fought it in the beginning, but have given in. Each time I arrive home and see one of the cars from her family parked at the house, then I know she is late and they are cooking. Does that make be a bad person? You comment about not marrying a Mexican man is one I have heard many times. Not specifically about mexican men but about people from different cultures, races, traditions etc marrying. It is a challenge to say the least, but being flexible makes it work and treating them as equals is where it all starts.

PS - you will be happy to know I cook dinners on the weekends. NO MEXICAN FOOD ALLOWED. It is just not my speciality.


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## Isla Verde

PanamaJack said:


> ISLA VERDE,
> Your comment surprises me. Did I ever say I could not cook for myself. My mother would be ashamed of me if anyone ever thought this grown man could not cook.
> 
> One reason I want to refurbish a building is to open shops on the first floor galleries and of course restaurants. I have owned four in my life time thus far and I am happiest in the kitchen. I was just expressing to you what my wife worries about. She does not want me working all day and then come home to cook dinner. That is the way she is and I fought it in the beginning, but have given in. Each time I arrive home and see one of the cars from her family parked at the house, then I know she is late and they are cooking.
> 
> .


When your wife works all day and comes home tired, do you cook dinner for her? Just wondering, now that I know that you know your way around a kitchen  .


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## PanamaJack

Tundra,
Dignity and respect was mentioned by someone else. I do not agree with the way women are treated in the workplace. Look at my wife. She is in the fields with men and in the lab with mostly men. If I was against her being equal in the workplace I would never have agree to being with a career woman. She has my full support. I agree there are consequences, but one thing to the best of my knowledge has not been said. Everyone that has made a comment about this are expats who do not have Mexican hertiage and everyone is basing it on their experience growing up not knowing how different it really is from hot dogs and apple pie.


----------



## Isla Verde

PanamaJack said:


> You comment about not marrying a Mexican man is one I have heard many times. Not specifically about mexican men but about people from different cultures, races, traditions etc marrying. It is a challenge to say the least, but being flexible makes it work and treating them as equals is where it all starts.


It's not as much of a challenge to marry someone from a different culture when the cultural differences are to your benefit. I have a few friends who are married to men from more traditional cultures, and the reason that their marriages have been successful is because the men haven't tried to force them into a traditional spousal role.


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## PanamaJack

Isla Verde said:


> It's not as much of a challenge to marry someone from a different culture when the cultural differences are to your benefit. I have a few friends who are married to men from more traditional cultures, and the reason that their marriages have been successful is because the men haven't tried to force them into a traditional spousal role.


Are you saying you believe I am one tht forces my wife into a traditional spousal role? I have not forced my wife into anything. She does as she chooses as she has the right. What traditional cultures are you speaking of? Also, if you do not mind me asking, have you ever been married? I know you said not to a Mexican, but to any man?

With regard to your other comment. I cook for my wife on the weekends and she cooks during the week if she gets home before 5:00. That is her choice and what she prefers.


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## Isla Verde

PanamaJack said:


> Are you saying you believe I am one tht forces my wife into a traditional spousal role? I have not forced my wife into anything. She does as she chooses as she has the right. What traditional cultures are you speaking of? Also, if you do not mind me asking, have you ever been married? I know you said not to a Mexican, but to any man?
> 
> With regard to your other comment. I cook for my wife on the weekends and she cooks during the week if she gets home before 5:00. That is her choice and what she prefers.


I wasn't referring to you but rather to non-Mexican women married to Mexican men. I'm sure you haven't forced your wife into anything. Obviously, she enjoys playing the role of wife as taught by her culture. Most of us are more comfortable fitting into the cultural norms we have been raised with. 

I fear this discussion has gotten a bit too personal and as a Moderator I think I should I have kept my opinions about Mexican gender roles to myself. Sorry if I've offended you in any way.


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## PanamaJack

Isla Verde said:


> I wasn't referring to you but rather to non-Mexican women married to Mexican men. I'm sure you haven't forced your wife into anything. Obviously, she enjoys playing the role of wife as taught by her culture. Most of us are more comfortable fitting into the cultural norms we have been raised with.
> 
> I fear this discussion has gotten a bit too personal and as a Moderator I think I should I have kept my opinions about Mexican gender roles to myself. Sorry if I've offended you in any way.


Isla Verde,
I learned a long time ago not to worry too much about the comments of others. Growing up a "******" in Mexico was not that easy and top that off with being very tall you can image how I stood and still stand out in this country. Thick skin is my middle. Isla, please do not worry about offending me. If that were to ever happen I would just not reply on the forum. It is quite fun trying to get others to give their opinions and only being on here for two days, I can see how opininated everyone is. Discussion is healthy and opens the mind.


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## mickisue1

Panama, I agree that discussion is healthy. But it's one thing to deal with your wife continuing the traditional role within your marriage, as she was taught. It would be another, entirely, to encourage her to raise daughters to believe that they should be subservient to their brothers and their husbands.

I was looking at some sites about the quiverfull movement, after Isla asked about it. There was a blog by a daughter of one of those families, who'd been raised to be a SAHD (stay at home daughter.) Not only do they believe in the wife being subject to the husband, and dying in childbirth with their umpteenth child, when they suffer a ruptured uterus from the stress of so many pregnancies, but they also raise their girls to be the junior moms, when the mother cannot care for the other kids.

She (the blogger) talks about how, as the daughter of a lower middle class family of 11 kids, she was expected to care for her 10 siblings, and to have no ambition higher than repeating the role when and if she married. Of course, it was preferable to her parents that she, or one of her sisters, just not get married at all, so that she could continue to act as an unpaid servant in the home as an adult.

I mention this because there was a tradition in Mexican families, at one time, that the youngest daughter would not marry, because it was to be her duty to take care of her aging parents as her siblings married and left.

Thankfully, this has changed over the decades. The practice that your wife finds so familiar will change, as well. My point is that it's up to all of us to help those changes along. Perhaps your making dinner on w/e's is part of it. I sincerely hope so.


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## Isla Verde

PanamaJack said:


> Isla Verde,
> . . . It is quite fun trying to get others to give their opinions and only being on here for two days, I can see how opininated everyone is. Discussion is healthy and opens the mind.


I agree that discussion is a good thing. It's also what makes this forum so lively!

While it istrue that many of us here have strong opinions about all sorts of things, that doesn't necessarily make us opinionated. One of the online dictionaries I use with my students has this to say about it:

"If you describe someone as opinionated, you mean that they have very strong opinions and refuse to accept that they may be wrong."

So, are we opinionated or just intelligent people with opinions about everything under the (Mexican) sun?


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## PanamaJack

Thankfully, this has changed over the decades. The practice that your wife finds so familiar will change, as well. My point is that it's up to all of us to help those changes along. Perhaps your making dinner on w/e's is part of it. I sincerely hope so.[/QUOTE]

I have seen changes. More Mexican women attending universities, more Mexican woman becoming professionals, more Mexican women speaking out about domestic violence and more. I am not opposed to it in the least, in fact I feel it is correct and about time it happened. All I have tried to do is state that as expats it is very, very hard to see how a Mexican family hierarchy works and how traditions (whether we agree to them or not) still are carried on. 

I believe the comparison you are using and mentioning about the quiverfull movement is "so out of place" in this discussion. I find it somewhat sad that you would compare that barbaric type of movement to a tradition in Mexican.


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## PanamaJack

Isla Verde said:


> I agree that discussion is a good thing. It's also what makes this forum so lively!
> 
> While it istrue that many of us here have strong opinions about all sorts of things, that doesn't necessarily make us opinionated. One of the online dictionaries I use with my students has this to say about it:
> 
> "If you describe someone as opinionated, you mean that they have very strong opinions and refuse to accept that they may be wrong."
> 
> So, are we opinionated or just intelligent people with opinions about everything under the (Mexican) sun?


Well, in my humble opinionated opinon I think the vast majority of people on this forum are opinionated because in the short time frame I have been posting, I have yet to see someone write - "hey, you are right, I was wrong in my opinion." If that were to happen it would be quite boring however!!!


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## AlanMexicali

PanamaJack said:


> Thankfully, this has changed over the decades. The practice that your wife finds so familiar will change, as well. My point is that it's up to all of us to help those changes along. Perhaps your making dinner on w/e's is part of it. I sincerely hope so.


I have seen changes. More Mexican women attending universities, more Mexican woman becoming professionals, more Mexican women speaking out about domestic violence and more. I am not opposed to it in the least, in fact I feel it is correct and about time it happened. All I have tried to do is state that as expats it is very, very hard to see how a Mexican family hierarchy works and how traditions (whether we agree to them or not) still are carried on. 

I believe the comparison you are using and mentioning about the quiverfull movement is "so out of place" in this discussion. I find it somewhat sad that you would compare that barbaric type of movement to a tradition in Mexican.[/QUOTE]

I would have to agree that Mexican husbands, grandfathers, father in laws, brother in laws and brothers here in Central Mexico in San Luis Potosi do not lift a finger around the inside of the house. The older ones can´t even get up to get a drink if a woman or joven is around. The sons do little if anything except errands if they have the time even when living at home in their middle or late twenties, not even shopping for groceries. The sons in their pre teens and teens do stuff. Not every household follows this model, but most in my experiences. Alan


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## ptrichmondmike

Isla Verde said:


> I asked because you mentioned considering South or Central America for a new home, but, as we all know, Mexico in in North America  .


I'm not going to read through this whole thread, but unless someone else mentioned it, not only is Mexico in North America, all of Central America is also in North America. Central America is a concept, not a continent.


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## TundraGreen

ptrichmondmike said:


> I'm not going to read through this whole thread, but unless someone else mentioned it, not only is Mexico in North America, all of Central America is also in North America. Central America is a concept, not a continent.


It was mentioned. Central America is considered a subcontinent of North America.


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## Isla Verde

TundraGreen said:


> It was mentioned. Central America is considered a subcontinent of North America.


In addition, there was a brief period of time in the first half of the 19th century when an entity known as the Federal Republic of Central America existed:

Federal Republic of Central America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## RVGRINGO

That settles it; Central America no longer exists!


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## Isla Verde

RVGRINGO said:


> That settles it; Central America no longer exists!


 Oh, my God, you're right, RV. Think of all the maps that will have to be redrawn!


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## Marishka

PanamaJack said:


> I have lived in this country for nearly 40 years and have been in homes with dirt floors and in the home of the President Felipe Calderon and every other type in between. The vast majority of families treat the men, especially the oldest like "el rey de la familia." It has nothing to do with nor can it be compared to slavery as the women, and I know because I married one, are part and parcel of the custom. My wife has forgotten more than I will every know in my lifetime, but that does not stop her from making sure my shirts are ironed and my dinner is cooked. If she is out with her NGO she will make sure that someone in her family i.e. sister, cousin, niece comes to our home to prepare dinner for me.
> 
> I know you do not understand and never will, my American friends do not understand and cannot believe their eyes, but that is how it is. My highly educated agronomist of a wife still to this day puts me first before everything else, of course it helps that I have not shut any doors and given her the choice of studying and making a career because when she wears pants she puts them on one leg at a time just like me and that makes her my equal.


You're right, it's difficult to imagine asking my sister, female cousin, or niece to go cook dinner for my husband because I have to work late. It's as difficult to imagine as it probably would be for a man to imagine asking his brother, male cousin, or nephew to go cook dinner for his wife.

I wish some Mexican women had weighed in on this topic. Maybe they're all too busy to participate, what with ironing their husbands' shirts and cooking dinner for their husbands, brothers-in-law, uncles and cousins, after they get home from their full-time job. 

However, I actually just got through reading some Mexican women's perspectives on this subject in _Oh Mexico!: Love and Adventure in Mexico City_. It's a memoir written by Lucy Neville, an Australian woman who taught English in Mexico City. Here's what a group of women in one of her classes had to say:



> However, there was one offence far more infuriating than all of the above. This was the refusal of their husbands to help around the house. Reina was an accountant for a large company and worked twelve hours a day in an office two hours away from her house. Yet her husband expected her to miraculously have dinner on the table when he got home from work, to maintain a spotless household and to rear their four children single-handedly.
> 
> ‘So I get home from work so tired, jou know, after being in de traffic for three hours—and de childrens are crying and Paco is lying on de sofa watching de soccer. He hears dat I arrive and he tells me, “Hey, what are jou doing? Why jou are taking so long with de dinner?”’
> 
> At this, the whole class moaned in recognition. ‘Jes, me too! Same for me!’ they shouted. Marisol said the problem came down to a difference in expectations—while the women envisioned a mutually supportive partnership, their husbands regarded marriage as little more than the acquisition of an unpaid servant.


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## AlanMexicali

Marishka said:


> You're right, it's difficult to imagine asking my sister, female cousin, or niece to go cook dinner for my husband because I have to work late. It's as difficult to imagine as it probably would be for a man to imagine asking his brother, male cousin, or nephew to go cook dinner for his wife.
> 
> I wish some Mexican women had weighed in on this topic. Maybe they're all too busy to participate, what with ironing their husbands' shirts and cooking dinner for their husbands, brothers-in-law, uncles and cousins, after they get home from their full-time job.
> 
> However, I actually just got through reading some Mexican women's perspectives on this subject in _Oh Mexico!: Love and Adventure in Mexico City_. It's a memoir written by Lucy Neville, an Australian woman who taught English in Mexico City. Here's what a group of women in one of her classes had to say:
> 
> However, there was one offence far more infuriating than all of the above. This was the refusal of their husbands to help around the house. Reina was an accountant for a large company and worked twelve hours a day in an office two hours away from her house. Yet her husband expected her to miraculously have dinner on the table when he got home from work, to maintain a spotless household and to rear their four children single-handedly.
> 
> ‘So I get home from work so tired, jou know, after being in de traffic for three hours—and de childrens are crying and Paco is lying on de sofa watching de soccer. He hears dat I arrive and he tells me, “Hey, what are jou doing? Why jou are taking so long with de dinner?”’
> 
> At this, the whole class moaned in recognition. ‘Jes, me too! Same for me!’ they shouted. Marisol said the problem came down to a difference in expectations—while the women envisioned a mutually supportive partnership, their husbands regarded marriage as little more than the acquisition of an unpaid servant.


Mexico City right? I find the accountants around here and, I know a dozen or more of them, do not hesitate to hire a 6 day a week 9 or 10 hours a day maid that does everything by 7PM and leaves the supper ready. If the problem exists as described they might have come from working class background and entered the middle class as a first generationand they might not have the ability or secure thinking to have a maid around, however if they are second generation professionals in real solid middle class large city society they are used to having a maid around for $700.00 pesos a week and trust them to be in the house and take good care of the children etc.

In my experience this is much of the jist of things. So the odd women you posted about do not fit a norm I see in almost all households but an exception to the norm of real solid middle class central Mexico and possibly a bit far stretching of my imagination as being a classic middle class situation but an odd ball situation at best. After all if you do the accounting of pesos this accountant can easily pay a days salary or less for a weeks work to have someone else keep the house and kids in tip top shape. Also who takes the children to school and goes to get them after school? IMO Alan


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## AlanMexicali

"Oh Mexico!: Love and Adventure in Mexico City" by Lucy Neville

I checked the above quoted book and found it is the adventures of a young female foreigner´s take on Mexican society and would not personally put much faith in her understanding the society down here all that well and possibly stretching the facts a bit to cater to her own judgements. I stay away from this type of reading when there is much better stuff to read from an insiders view. Alan


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## Marishka

AlanMexicali said:


> Mexico City right?


That is correct.



AlanMexicali said:


> I find the accountants around here and, I know a dozen or more of them, do not hesitate to hire a 6 day a week 9 or 10 hours a day maid that does everything by 7PM and leaves the supper ready. If the problem exists as described they might have come from working class background and entered the middle class as a first generationand they might not have the ability or secure thinking to have a maid around, however if they are second generation professionals in real solid middle class large city society they are used to having a maid around for $700.00 pesos a week and trust them to be in the house and take good care of the children etc.
> 
> In my experience this is much of the jist of things. So the odd women you posted about do not fit a norm I see in almost all households but an exception to the norm of real solid middle class central Mexico and possibly a bit far stretching of my imagination as being a classic middle class situation but an odd ball situation at best. After all if you do the accounting of pesos this accountant can easily pay a days salary or less for a weeks work to have someone else keep the house and kids in tip top shape. Also who takes the children to school and goes to get them after school? IMO Alan


I have no idea how much money Reina or the other women earned, or whether their budgets allowed for household help. Lucy did write that these women said it was too expensive to live in Mexico City. They commuted, leaving for work at four in the morning to avoid the traffic, arriving at 6:00 am. This is what Lucy wrote about the jobs of the other women who were in that particular class:


> Most of my students had administrative jobs in big corporations. Silvia was an accountant; Marisol was a computer engineer for Carlos Slim’s telecommunications company, Telmex; Elvira was in marketing and Concepción was a personal assistant.


Lucy also taught English to women who had a household staff and bodyguards. In no way did she ever suggest that all women in Mexico have exactly the same type of home life.



AlanMexicali said:


> "Oh Mexico!: Love and Adventure in Mexico City" by Lucy Neville
> 
> I checked the above quoted book and found it is the adventures of a young female foreigner´s take on Mexican society and would not personally put much faith in her understanding the society down here all that well and possibly stretching the facts a bit to cater to her own judgements. I stay away from this type of reading when there is much better stuff to read from an insiders view. Alan


Why would an expat be more likely to “stretch the facts a bit to cater to her own judgements” than an insider? After all, the way we see ourselves and the society we were born into is not necessarily an objective point of view.

I personally never judge a book that I haven’t read, but I did read this one and nothing Lucy wrote seemed unbelievable to me, including what she said the women in that particular class told her. I guess Lucy getting an acting role on the telenovela _Destilando Amor_ (one of the funniest parts of the book) might seem a little unbelievable, but then that is something that can be easily verified. 

What I appreciated most about her experience was that although she spoke little Spanish when she arrived, she stayed away from other English speaking expats and immersed herself in Mexican culture. After she settled into her new life in Mexico, she insisted on speaking Spanish only with her Mexican roommate, friends and boyfriend, and as a result was fluent in Spanish a year and a half later.

In any case, if you think that no Mexican women have the experiences spoken of by the women in Lucy’s class, feel free to dismiss it! I posted the account because I believe those women’s voices deserve to be heard as much as the men who have posted their point of view on this subject.



AlanMexicali said:


> I stay away from this type of reading when there is much better stuff to read from an insiders view. Alan


I'd love to read any books on women's lives in Mexico that were written from an insider's viewpoint. Feel free to post the titles of books written from a male insider's view, but I'd especially love to read what the women themselves have to say about their own lives. I can read Spanish, so if they're only available in Spanish, that's fine.


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## PanamaJack

Marishka said:


> I'd love to read any books on women's lives in Mexico that were written from an insider's viewpoint. Feel free to post the titles of books written from a male insider's view, but I'd especially love to read what the women themselves have to say about their own lives. I can read Spanish, so if they're only available in Spanish, that's fine.


Read this book - HERE'S TO YOU, JESUSA! written by Elena Poniatowska
My wife loves this book that is based on interviews of a women by the name of Josefina Borquez. I believe the book was originally written in 1969 under the name Hasta No Verte Jesus Mio.


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## Isla Verde

PanamaJack said:


> Read this book - HERE'S TO YOU, JESUSA! written by Elena Poniatowska
> My wife loves this book that is based on interviews of a women by the name of Josefina Borquez. I believe the book was originally written in 1969 under the name Hasta No Verte Jesus Mio.


This book recounts the life story of a woman from a poor Oaxaca village who gets caught up in the Mexican Revolution and ends up in Mexico City, where the author met her during the last years of her life, befriended her, and turned her life in an amazing book. Highly recommended, by me and by PanamaJack's wife!


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## Marishka

PanamaJack said:


> Read this book - HERE'S TO YOU, JESUSA! written by Elena Poniatowska
> My wife loves this book that is based on interviews of a women by the name of Josefina Borquez. I believe the book was originally written in 1969 under the name Hasta No Verte Jesus Mio.





Isla Verde said:


> This book recounts the life story of a woman from a poor Oaxaca village who gets caught up in the Mexican Revolution and ends up in Mexico City, where the author met her during the last years of her life, befriended her, and turned her life in an amazing book. Highly recommended, by me and by PanamaJack's wife!


Many thanks to PanamaJack for the suggestion and to Isla Verde for the review! I read a review at Amazon that said entire paragraphs and pages were cut out of the English version, so I ordered the Spanish version, _Hasta no verte Jesus mio_. 

Unfortunately, a Kindle version of that book isn't available yet. I love reading Spanish versions of books on Kindle because if you have a Spanish dictionary installed, you just touch any word you know with your finger and the English translation pops up. It's a great way to learn new vocabulary. Of course, you can usually figure it out by the context, but it's so nice to be able to translate any word so quickly and easily.

BTW, is there a thread on this forum where people give little mini-reviews of books about Mexico that they've enjoyed?


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## Isla Verde

Marishka said:


> BTW, is there a thread on this forum where people give little mini-reviews of books about Mexico that they've enjoyed?


No, there isn't, but it's an excellent idea. Why don't you start one?


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## arturo_b

Isla Verde said:


> I asked because you mentioned considering South or Central America for a new home, but, as we all know, Mexico in in North America  .


The beginning of wisdom, said the wise man, is the definition of terms. 

So what is a continent? Is it not a land-mass completely surrounded by water? Then all of the New World is the continent of America. That canal in Panama is man-made, created in the twentieth century by imperialistic slave-labor.

Is it something conventional, such as the division of Europe and Asia? Then what is the convention? People who play Boticelli know of Biddle's Asia, a de-facto convention dividing one large continent at the Caucasus Mountains. But even that doesn't really address Turkey, where the Armenians (east of the Caucasus) ruled Philadelphia (west of the Caucasus) and which used to be Asia Minor but is now far eastern Europe. Where does Syria go? To Asia because it's Arabic? But if Arabs are oriental, what of Morocco? Is the Sinai Peninsula in Africa? Or should the Middle East be a continent unto itself?

Someone said we should be considered part of North America because Salinas made us signatories to NAFTA. But that's imperialism again: the gringos gave the treaty that name. We call it the Tratado de Libre Comercio and it is widely deprecated in the southern part of the New World, where it is given its full translation, "TLCAN", because they see a semantic domino-effect in operation.

Mexico (if I might speak for the thirty-some million of us) considers herself to be part of Latin America.

Can Latin America be considered a continent, or even a sub-continent, inasmuch as it extended as far north as California, Utah, and Colorado up until the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo? Well, maybe not. But it does play into the conventional notion that borders, when they are not physical, are at least cultural and linguistic.

Can Mexico be part of North America? Even here in Tijuana, the northernmost part of Mexico, that idea is hard to accept. Our city motto is "Aqui empieza la patria", and la patria cannot possibly be norteamericana. "Norteamericano" is the most polite term we use for gringos and even then we apologize to Canadians for painting them with the same brush!

We don't really have a geographical way to demarcate the land-mass of the New World. The Spanish Crown had us broken into reasonable administrative units a few centuries ago, but nowadays, well...

The hardening of borders is another way to demarcate. That was how Berlin was partitioned, after all. So maybe it's Operation Gatekeeper that determines our continent, along the lines of Maginot or Schengen. If that's the case, then Mexico is clearly not part of North America.

Since I try to cross that border regularly, encountering guys with guns and lines four thousand people long, I am inclined to say that Mexico is functionally not part of North America. Therefore, we must be something else.

Mexico is where Latin America begins.


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## chicois8

Mexico is where Latin America begins. ..................Or ends!!!!!!


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## Guategringo

arturo_b said:


> Mexico is where Latin America begins.


Arturo I disagree. In the U.S. there are over 50 million people who are Hispanics or Latinos however you wish to call the. or about 1/6 of the population, the largest single minority group, therefore maybe Latin America begins at the border between Canada and the U.S. and not at the Rio Grande. 

I sense in your post that you, as a Mexican, want to separate yourself and your country from that of the U.S. but you are calling Mexico the beginning of Latin "America" and the U.S. North "America," sounds to me the two, along with Canada and all the way to Tierra del Fuego should be the "Americas" from your description.


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## Isla Verde

Guategringo said:


> I sense in your post that you, as a Mexican, want to separate yourself and your country from that of the U.S. . . .


Gg, according to arturo_b's profile, he is from the US.


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## joaquinx

arturo_b said:


> The beginning of wisdom, said the wise man, is the definition of terms.
> 
> So what is a continent? Is it not a land-mass completely surrounded by water? Then all of the New World is the continent of America. That canal in Panama is man-made, created in the twentieth century by imperialistic slave-labor.


This definition would make the Europe/Asia/Africa (Euroasiafro) one continent, right (We have to skip the Suez Canal to keep with the above definition)? I assume that a "land-mass" would be large such as Australia but not Madagascar. That leaves us with four continents: Americas, Euroasiafro, Australia, and Antarctica.


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## Isla Verde

arturo_b said:


> The beginning of wisdom, said the wise man, is the definition of terms.
> 
> So what is a continent? Is it not a land-mass completely surrounded by water?


Not really. That's the definition of an island. Here's a more nuanced definition of "continent":

What Is A Continent


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## Guategringo

Isla Verde said:


> Gg, according to arturo_b's profile, he is from the US.


That he does Isla, but with this line (Mexico (if I might speak for the thirty-some million of us) considers herself to be part of Latin America.) He is more than saying he is mexican. He may be from the U.S. and his opinions favor Mexico unless I am way off base.


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