# Real situation in Cape Town



## luismg

Hello everyone!

I know this has been asked many times, but still I don't have a clear picture of the situation in this beautiful city regarding security/crime.
Let me say first that I am from Buenos Aires, Argentina, and I have visited CT last year in October, but it was only a three day visit (the last day it rained a lot, so just count two ;-).

My question refers to how real is the perception created by the media.
I know from my own experience in my country that sometimes, media creates histeria, and it seriously affects the perception people has about reality.
For examle, the recent economic crash of 2001 in Argentina originated serious social problems and, obviously, crime rised considerably.
But considering that Buenos Aires was a relatively safe place before the crash, many people feel now that this is out of control, and everytime a visitor arrives, he/she gets bogged down with terrible details on how bad the situation is right now...

I still believe that in spit of what we see in the media, BsAs is still one of the safest large cities in the world, and anyone armed with a little bit of common sense can live perfectly ok.

Is this the situation in Cape Town, or it really is "that serious"?
I got the feeling that the situation in CP is similar to that of Buenos Aires, but I don´t know really...

My first impression of CT was that it is a really pleasant place. I know October is right before the tourist season, so it probably looked more laid back than it is, but I've never seen anything to worry about (only a few beggars, nothing serious).
The only things that made me wonder were all those signal warnings on every single door indicating "ARMED RESPONSE".
While watching all the beautiful properties all along Camps Bay and surrounding areas, it was hard to imagine that this was a crime riden place, but the warnings were there, very visible...

When you walk down to these beaches, you can see a lot of bungalows and small nice places to rent. These properties are very exposed and easy to get into. All of them show "ARMED RESPONSE" warnings, but strangely, there don´t seem to be many armed guards...
All this is very strange for a first time visitor, so I would like to hear from locals what´s exactly the situation there.

Can I imagine myself living a normal life, with small kids, going to school, working and enjoying the city everyday?
I always wanted to spend at least a couple of years with my family in a foreign country, learning a new language (specially my little daughters), and having a life experience, and I wonder if South Africa, and CT in particular, could be this place. 
Of course, I wouldn´t be living in Camps Bay.. I'm not rich, so I would have to live in a somewhat affordable, down to earth place...

Any hint?
I would apreciate comments from locals or expats that could give me a clearer picture of everyday life in Cape Town.

Thanks!
Luis


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## gkloken

Luis, you said it all in your summary or conclusion. 
Like BsAs there are some places where crime is more prevalant than others . It is for prevention that you see the signs. Is there crime? Naturally, like in every big city. But again like BsAs - before it was not, much but have increased because of certain factors. 
Thousands of people live a wonderful quality of live there, with small children and they are happy. 
Then there are those that don't like it and move else where. It is a personal choice you have to make yourself.
You, coming from a place of change, will understand and adapt easier than people coming from a stable, peaceful, almost crime free area. 
Just live in awareness and you will love it I am sure.


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## RIKKA

I have been to CT 4 times in the last year. It is the most strikingly beautiful place I have ever seen. I have been to many countries in the world, and have a great deal of expereince in travel. I feel generally safe in CT, as long as I follow big city intution. (garnerd at the expense of working in awful neighborhoods in Balitmore as a bill collector out of college). CT in the CBD or the winelands is phenominal.

I would argue you will be fine if you keep your wits and listen to your own common sense. I have not been to BsAs, but owudl love to go,and have some collegues from there who rave about it.

Hope this helps.


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## luismg

Thanks gkloken and rikka!
Your answers are very much appreciated.
I really don't like asking these kind of questions, because it looks like I'm a coward tourist pointing out negative things instead of those that really matter.
As a matter of fact, I hate when other foreigners ask all the time the same questions about my city...

Actually, my doubts were generated by the contrast between what I saw in Cape Town, and the news I read about South Africa when I returned home.
Although I must say that there's a lot of negative press from Southafricans themselves.

Here I see a familiar pattern when comparing these ttitudes to those of many argentines that left the country. It's like they need to convince themselves that they made the right choice when they left.
It's curious how different peoples react the same way when facing similar problems...

Well, thanks again!
Luis


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## gkloken

Luis, different people move for different reasons. 
Those that move due to negativity about their country soon finds that that same negativity catches up with them in the new country too. You have a great attitude and I am positive that wherever you go you will enjoy it. Be wise but remember it will be your experience that matters and the Media are mostly sensation seekers.


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## keltic-knight

*Reply from a first-year expat*

Hi,

I moved from South London to Cape Town with my wife and daughter in February 2007 and have found it to be a wonderful place to live. The people are genuinely warm and friendly and the scenery stunning. The racial groups, primarily white, black and cape coloureds, still live in distinct geographic areas, however, and there is further polarisation in respect of, for example, native Afrikaans and English speaking sub-communitees.

A visitor or prospective ex-pat is right to be wary of the security situation in all South African cities. During the day, most public areas such as beaches, shopping malls and tourist attractions around Cape Town feel quite safe. Security guards are never far away and there is a reasonably visible Police presence. 

The rich (including anyone paid a reasonable UK living wage) live in safer neighbourhoods and secure properties, and you're right, Armed Response is quite common although don't be fooled by the fact that every home seems to be fitted with an ADT sign board. Many people don't actually bother having it connected. 

We live in a secure estate surrounded by high perimiter fences with controlled entry, and our house also has ADT Armed Response, and I would recommend that any newcomer should take similar precautions. The biggest danger is coming home and disturbing a burglar. Burglary and theft from cars are probably the most prevelent crimes in Western Cape.

Drugs are a big problem in South Africa and a particularly destructive amphetamine called Tic is very popular at present. The black townships around Cape Town, politely referred to as "informal settlements", more commonly by locals as "squatter camps" or "the shacks", and by foreigners as "shanty towns", are awash with it. Many camp inhabitants are from the Eastern Cape or other African countries. The conditions in which they live are hard and dangerous, and although not everyone carries firearms, there are guns around. So disturbing a burglar, desperate through poverty and drug addiction and possibly armed, is not a good idea. So keeping the armed response on at night and whenever you are out is the best plan. If it is activated whilst you are out, ADT will call your cellphone and tell you, and will visit the property to check things out before you go back in.

We regularly explore the mountain and drive around at night, but would not tend to walk far after dark. From restaurant to car, for example, is generally ok but we would avoid a midnight walk on the beach.

By far the majority of violent crime is experienced within the townships and poorer housing areas. Shootings and stabbings relating to gang crime and other disputes are common, as is domestic violence. Obviously, as a visitor, do not ever enter an area of shacks or a visibly poor or run down residential area on your own. There are safe tours to be found and one enterprising township that I am aware of actually hosts dinners for tourists. I haven't been on one but I am told that the food is absolutely excellent. 

Many shacks residents are employed by white people and our own domestic assistant, Eunice, lives in a shack in our local camp in Hout Bay, known as Mandela Park. We regularly collect her from the camp and altough I would definitely not want to walk through it at night, it doesn't feel as threatening as you might imagine.

So, overall, you are unlikely to get robbed at the traffic lights ("Robots" is the official name for them here!) during the day in Cape Town. You'll experience a few black guys trying to sell you things when you stop from time to time, but that's all. You can get out of the car, walk down the street, go for a beer or a meal, and play on the beaches. Stay away from areas that are obviously very poor or rundown. Take precautions at home, and never leave anything of value in your car because it is likely to be stolen. Conversely, if the car is left empty it is probably less likely to be taken or vandalised than in London, however. Don't walk about in the city in the dark as muggings of tourists are quite common. It happened to a good friend of mine but he was so obviously a tourist, carrying valuables, in a quiet part of the city centre at night. If someone does try to mug you, he'll probably wave a knife around and demand money. Give it to him without argument, and most of the time, he'll run away.

The stories about car-jacking and ramming come more from Johannesburg - all Jo'burgers have a story about something that happened to them, or someone close to them. Cape Town, however, is not so bad providing that you use common sense. 

It is a truly beautiful city inhabited by some of the most colourful and open-minded people you will ever meet. A visit to Cape Town and the surrounding Western Cape is a truly unique experience which I would thoroughly recommend to anyone. But unless you like the rain and wind, avoid 1 April to 30 September. The "mediterranean climate" is a falicy. The winter is chilly and wet, with occasional nice days. It starts to pick up in October. December is windy and January to March really hot.

If you are serious about moving here you will find that most houses are typically not equipped for the winter. Central heating is very rare and most homes rely on open fires or paraffin and electric heaters. We found a cheap electric blanket a real asset in July and August. Firewood is widely available but only cheap in bulk and after heavy rainstorms it can be difficult to buy good dry wood. Apartments tend to be warmer, of course. It's just worth bearing in mind when you look for somewhere that the winters are colder than you might imagine, so look out for good window frames, wall heaters and well positioned fireplaces and firewood storage.

Keltic.


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## synthia

Thank you, gloken!

The heating thing always amazed me. When I lived in South Africa, the temperature would go down to -5C, no heat, 'air bricks' in every room so even if there were some insulation it would do no good, and people told me that of course there was no central heat, "because we really don't need it, do we?"

I had an apartment for a while that had a bath but no shower, and developed this whole routine where I rolled out of bed into my robe and slippers, ran into the bath and started to fill the tub with hot water, shut the door, and huddled under the covers with my eye on the clock. I ran in to shut off the water at the exact minute it got to the desired height, shut the door behind me, and bathed in a nice warm room.


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## Gordon

keltic-knight said:


> Hi,
> 
> I moved from South London to Cape Town with my wife and daughter in February 2007 and have found it to be a wonderful place to live. The people are genuinely warm and friendly and the scenery stunning. The racial groups, primarily white, black and cape coloureds, still live in distinct geographic areas, however, and there is further polarisation in respect of, for example, native Afrikaans and English speaking sub-communitees.
> 
> A visitor or prospective ex-pat is right to be wary of the security situation in all South African cities. During the day, most public areas such as beaches, shopping malls and tourist attractions around Cape Town feel quite safe. Security guards are never far away and there is a reasonably visible Police presence.
> 
> The rich (including anyone paid a reasonable UK living wage) live in safer neighbourhoods and secure properties, and you're right, Armed Response is quite common although don't be fooled by the fact that every home seems to be fitted with an ADT sign board. Many people don't actually bother having it connected.
> 
> We live in a secure estate surrounded by high perimiter fences with controlled entry, and our house also has ADT Armed Response, and I would recommend that any newcomer should take similar precautions. The biggest danger is coming home and disturbing a burglar. Burglary and theft from cars are probably the most prevelent crimes in Western Cape.
> 
> Drugs are a big problem in South Africa and a particularly destructive amphetamine called Tic is very popular at present. The black townships around Cape Town, politely referred to as "informal settlements", more commonly by locals as "squatter camps" or "the shacks", and by foreigners as "shanty towns", are awash with it. Many camp inhabitants are from the Eastern Cape or other African countries. The conditions in which they live are hard and dangerous, and although not everyone carries firearms, there are guns around. So disturbing a burglar, desperate through poverty and drug addiction and possibly armed, is not a good idea. So keeping the armed response on at night and whenever you are out is the best plan. If it is activated whilst you are out, ADT will call your cellphone and tell you, and will visit the property to check things out before you go back in.
> 
> We regularly explore the mountain and drive around at night, but would not tend to walk far after dark. From restaurant to car, for example, is generally ok but we would avoid a midnight walk on the beach.
> 
> By far the majority of violent crime is experienced within the townships and poorer housing areas. Shootings and stabbings relating to gang crime and other disputes are common, as is domestic violence. Obviously, as a visitor, do not ever enter an area of shacks or a visibly poor or run down residential area on your own. There are safe tours to be found and one enterprising township that I am aware of actually hosts dinners for tourists. I haven't been on one but I am told that the food is absolutely excellent.
> 
> Many shacks residents are employed by white people and our own domestic assistant, Eunice, lives in a shack in our local camp in Hout Bay, known as Mandela Park. We regularly collect her from the camp and altough I would definitely not want to walk through it at night, it doesn't feel as threatening as you might imagine.
> 
> So, overall, you are unlikely to get robbed at the traffic lights ("Robots" is the official name for them here!) during the day in Cape Town. You'll experience a few black guys trying to sell you things when you stop from time to time, but that's all. You can get out of the car, walk down the street, go for a beer or a meal, and play on the beaches. Stay away from areas that are obviously very poor or rundown. Take precautions at home, and never leave anything of value in your car because it is likely to be stolen. Conversely, if the car is left empty it is probably less likely to be taken or vandalised than in London, however. Don't walk about in the city in the dark as muggings of tourists are quite common. It happened to a good friend of mine but he was so obviously a tourist, carrying valuables, in a quiet part of the city centre at night. If someone does try to mug you, he'll probably wave a knife around and demand money. Give it to him without argument, and most of the time, he'll run away.
> 
> The stories about car-jacking and ramming come more from Johannesburg - all Jo'burgers have a story about something that happened to them, or someone close to them. Cape Town, however, is not so bad providing that you use common sense.
> 
> It is a truly beautiful city inhabited by some of the most colourful and open-minded people you will ever meet. A visit to Cape Town and the surrounding Western Cape is a truly unique experience which I would thoroughly recommend to anyone. But unless you like the rain and wind, avoid 1 April to 30 September. The "mediterranean climate" is a falicy. The winter is chilly and wet, with occasional nice days. It starts to pick up in October. December is windy and January to March really hot.
> 
> If you are serious about moving here you will find that most houses are typically not equipped for the winter. Central heating is very rare and most homes rely on open fires or paraffin and electric heaters. We found a cheap electric blanket a real asset in July and August. Firewood is widely available but only cheap in bulk and after heavy rainstorms it can be difficult to buy good dry wood. Apartments tend to be warmer, of course. It's just worth bearing in mind when you look for somewhere that the winters are colder than you might imagine, so look out for good window frames, wall heaters and well positioned fireplaces and firewood storage.
> 
> Keltic.


Hi Keltic

I was brought up in Sutton (Surrey when I was born - south London now!).

My wife and I are keen on semi-retirement in SA. My wife lived there from 1963 to 1994. She left due to work transfer - no other reason.

We've visited several times - last time just 3 weeks ago.

Your November post echos our experience. Any change of view since?

Cheers

Gordon


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## BeautifulMystique

Keltic!

Thank you so much for your post. I have been to Cape Town twice and stayed for a week on each visit and loved it so much that I am now thinking of moving to Cape Town.

I'm planning to start my own business there and it seems like a really good place to start and seeing that World Cup will be held there in 2010 - it would be the perfect time to set it up by end of this year.

I have read on here about the crime rates there and from what my BF has told me - it isn't so bad as what I have read here, then again he lives in an above average neighbourhood so it might be slightly different in terms of security?

All I can say is that crimes are everywhere and as one of the above posters said, one should always keep one's with and use common sense.


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## webslave1

*Dont panic - its safe*



BeautifulMystique said:


> Keltic!
> 
> Thank you so much for your post. I have been to Cape Town twice and stayed for a week on each visit and loved it so much that I am now thinking of moving to Cape Town.
> 
> I'm planning to start my own business there and it seems like a really good place to start and seeing that World Cup will be held there in 2010 - it would be the perfect time to set it up by end of this year.
> 
> I have read on here about the crime rates there and from what my BF has told me - it isn't so bad as what I have read here, then again he lives in an above average neighbourhood so it might be slightly different in terms of security?
> 
> All I can say is that crimes are everywhere and as one of the above posters said, one should always keep one's with and use common sense.



I can tell you all, having lived in other countries and other big cities, the rules are the same do not walk around with cash falling out of your pockets, dont wear a gold rolex unless you are aware of the area you are wearing it in. 

I am going to say this again, South Africa used to be a police state as so the locals who were used to abslute safety and absolute fear have to adjust to the new world wide open country. Give them time it has only been 14 years or so, the fact is it is perfectly safe to walk down the high street at 3am just as it is doing it in the middle of nottinghill in London or even Brixton. Just a lot safer. 

Fact is if you are stupid you will get mugged in any central city, most people on this forum will open businesses that do not deal in visibly large amounts of cash where the public see the turnover, this is a risk in any country even the UK, Paris Moscow and New York.

The City of Cape Town is like London quite small in and of itself, to see great properties in London you can look at my favorite web site for the upmarket properties in London on Chase Devonshire blog . com and from there you will not see any figure proclaiming any violence which is a daily fact in London. The rest of the city of cape town is out of what is called The City Bowl, because it is nestled i the foot of the mountain it looks like a bowl, simple hey?

That the London metropolitan police have the highest density of police almost anywhere in the world and they struggle says it all. South Africa has fewer police in the whole country than The City of London has. Sad but true.

The armed response signs you see are no different from what you see when in other countries you see ADT security signs, they are not really necessary as 99%of the unemployed are peace loving people who just want a chance to work. They don't have any skills and this limits them to poorly appreciated jobs that are low paid, the fear of them is greater than the danger they do not even pose.

The fear marketing by the media is used to keep the population in check as it is the only way the locals understand to do this.

Do yourself a favour understand that what you put out is what you get back and treat all the people you meet in RSA with respect and in my experience it is returned. 

As a country the people (all the people's) of South Africa have a few characteristics in common, they are blunt and what you see if what you get which to other cultures can be very scary , don't be scared be happy as you don't have to guess. They are also very savvy when it comes to making money and those with a lot of fear are also quite greedy. This is a weakness from the fear of loss.

Be sure that you want to work hard and I can tell you from personal experience that you will make a lot of money, very quickly as it is there you just need the will to succeed. No different from any other country. The fear you can blame on that old twit Bush. He did more damage than the 'extremists' ever could on their own.

He did their job for them and the world is now a much more fearful place and this is borne out by the xenophobia I experienced in London first.

To date this has not happened in Cape Town, they are curious but no more than that. They are adjusting to the world and the neighbors coming to the New African Dream. Its a new century and the America dream has soured. 

Be a part of the New Dream that is Africa and be a part of the positive things I have seen with my own eyes.

Oh and one more thing, keep your old bank accounts alive as the RSA reserve bank can be a royal pain. As a dual nationality person or a permanent resident you are legally allowed to have this so keep a post box or a family members address in the country of origin for your bank accounts etc. 

I am not a lawyer so do not take this as legal advice, I read the law or government Gazette just like anyone else can, its online.


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## Daxk

"The fear marketing by the media is used to keep the population in check as it is the only way the locals understand to do this."

would you mind expanding on this?


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## webslave1

*fear marketing*



Daxk said:


> "The fear marketing by the media is used to keep the population in check as it is the only way the locals understand to do this."
> 
> would you mind expanding on this?


Its insidious, the constant focus on crime when there are better things to report, South Africans can be a very inward focused people and this is compounded by the fear marketing that says that if you do not have this brand or tracker in your car your children will not be safe - yes there is an advert by a well known UK brand tracker using children to sell fear to sell the product.

Fear marketing by other cleaning brands are a major cause of the increase in various other things causing problems with the water supply too - take the way waste is delt with in a large portion of South Africa, magazines such as Popular mechanics have said yes put chlorine in the toilet to 'disinfect' it and in doing so they are directly causing the destruction of the bacteria that are needed to break dow the waste water to usable components and be reused.

To see the proof borrow a copy and look on page 11 vol6 number 10 in a readers reply titled 'SAVE THE GERMS'.

This is fear marketing - buy our product because if you dont...... used sparingly it has a place but this constant barrage is unacceptable and morally reprehensible.

It would be far better to say hey - we screw up, we can fix this and here hey - look at this future, Cape Town in particular has a lot to be positive about with a new underground train system in the pre-planning stages, JHB has the new 'Pendolino' ex virgin trains uk based high speed rail system with three below ground stations coming on line within the next year and crime is actually down year on year over the whole country and especially Cape Town.

The judicial system is healthy and debate is encouraged. 

There are a lot of positive things to celebrate and look forward to the future - today. 

No fear marketing needed.


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## Stravinsky

Dont you think the hugh level of violent crime is worth focusing on then?


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## Daxk

very happy to hear that, webslave, will welcome the reduction in the daily report of Murders,Armed Home Invasions, rapes, oh sorry, thats right,they dont report anything unless people are killed or at least in Hospital now.

Waht was the actual reduction? not the percentage, the actual drop?

Also very happy to hear that the Water Supply is becoming safe again,those 80 kids who died as a result of Water Contamination in March and April in the Eastern Cape parents were obviously trying to save the environment too.

Those underground trains in CT and Gauteng, they are electric I believe?
and you say Gauteng will be up and running next year? can you kindly give us a link to this?
Thanks,
so glad to hear its so safe again.


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## oddball

Just read that foriegners are racing to leave because of an upsurge in violence , civil unrest does not die quickly or easily .


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## Bootes

Just wanted to revive this thread. This chap was making some interesting points about South Africans being used to living in a police state and the neurosis and fear.


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## luismg

*New visit*

A few years after starting this thread, I visited Cape Town for the second time.
It was, again, a short stop coming back home from a business trip to China.
This time I stayed 4 days, which were fully enjoyed.

Once again, I have to express my confussion about reality/perception of the situation in this beautiful city.
My impression, again, is that it is a beautifull, pleasant place.
Again, I was staying in a supposedly nice area (Green Point). But I've seen the city center, many surrounding areas, and I even made a train trip to Simon's Town, visiting a few towns in between.

Everybody warmed me to be careful in the train, to hide my cel phone, etc, etc...
Nothing bad happened. The people seemed to be very respectful,
On my way back to CP, almost 95% of the passengers were native blacks. Not even one stared at me in a bad way, and I felt safe all the time.

The only curious thing I've seen there, were some strange warnings in the beach, prohibiting entrance with deadly weapons such as machetes or Kalashnikovs (LOL). I should have taken pictures...

I also visited Hout Bay. Wonderful place.
Curious thing: when I came back home, I googled Hout Bay to learn more about the places I visited, and I read news about violent riots of residents for racial disturbs or something like that...
So again, I asked myself how could this posssibly be true??
I was there, and it was the most peaceful place I've ever seen!

I just want to express the confussion I (and many foreign people) have about CP's real situation.

Are all the bad news real? Or just psicosis?
Something in between? Was I blind while I was there??

Luis





Daxk said:


> "The fear marketing by the media is used to keep the population in check as it is the only way the locals understand to do this."
> 
> would you mind expanding on this?


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## Daxk

Luis, the only analogy I can give is time and place.

I started Scuba/snorkelling diving when I was 16 and stopped when I was 45,I saw plenty of Sharks and lots of other fish that could eat me rather than vice versa.

That does not mean that the sea is safe, only that I never found a fish that wanted to eat me badly enough.

In the same way I travelled through most of sub-saharan Africa on buses and trains and on the backs of trucks, some of it during full on civil wars and unrest, I never had a problem, in fact in one instance I was on a bus going through a township where there were people getting burned, the passengers, all black, hid me under some luggage,

nothing ever happened to me, one night I dragged a log out of the road and could hear them whispering in the bush, obviously I was not who or what they wanted, so nothing happened.
Does that mean that its safe to hitch hike through a War zone?

or that I was just lucky no-on saw any value in harming me.

Its the same in SA, you can spend a lifetime there and experience nothing at all, no crime at all, in 50 of my 54 years there apart from a stolen car and some radios and a mugging that was akin to a bag snatching , nothing happened to me, to my friends, yes, but not to me.
but when it did happen, it was a biggie.

living there is not an automatic guarantee that you will be mugged or murdered or raped.

but there's also no guarantee that someone wont look at you as having something they want.


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## luismg

Alright Daxk, but can't we say exactly the same about millions of other places in the world?

Even in the so called "first world" there are places where you can get shot and nobody would care.
For example, in east Los Angeles there are neighborhoods with gangs killing each other with automatic weapons. However, I don't read comments from thousands of Californians warning people about violence in their city.
You know what I mean?

Rio de Janeiro is also a dangerous place, but it receives millions of tourists every year. Even in my country there are crimes every day in the news (and everywhere) but hey, this is where the world is going (right to hell).

Is Cape Town different? Better? Worse? (note that I'm asking about CP, not the rest of the country).

By the way, I noted some beggars, specially along the famous beaches of Camps Bay and outside of restaurants. But I've also seen them in Paris, New York or London.

One anecdote: My friends and I bought some sandwiches and sodas in a supermarket, just in front of Camps Bay beach (I'm sure you know where, it's the only one in the area), and then we crossed the street to have a little pic-nic in the beach. Almost immediately, some people approached us to sell us shades, handycrafts, etc... when we refused to buy, they started asking us for food.
They were so insistent that I just gave one of them my sandwich.

The guy seemed to be incredibly happy and he said to me thank you a million times. This is when I realized he was not just an annoying beggar. He was really hungry, and he said something about the rising cost of food and the people of the townships (I couldn't understand exactly... his accent was too difficult to my ears).

So you know, I believe that I can visit this city a million times and still don't know how things are there.

So to summarize: My impression is that CP is not different than any other city of the "first world". The only thing that gave me some fear were the news.
I believe I am a rather smart guy who knows how to act in the streets, but I never felt threatened at all.

All this left me wonder that, maybe, southafricans are just too smart to hide poverty from tourists, and perhaps the nasty reality is just hidden behind a big wall... I don't know.






Daxk said:


> Luis, the only analogy I can give is time and place.
> 
> I started Scuba/snorkelling diving when I was 16 and stopped when I was 45,I saw plenty of Sharks and lots of other fish that could eat me rather than vice versa.
> 
> That does not mean that the sea is safe, only that I never found a fish that wanted to eat me badly enough.
> 
> In the same way I travelled through most of sub-saharan Africa on buses and trains and on the backs of trucks, some of it during full on civil wars and unrest, I never had a problem, in fact in one instance I was on a bus going through a township where there were people getting burned, the passengers, all black, hid me under some luggage,
> 
> nothing ever happened to me, one night I dragged a log out of the road and could hear them whispering in the bush, obviously I was not who or what they wanted, so nothing happened.
> Does that mean that its safe to hitch hike through a War zone?
> 
> or that I was just lucky no-on saw any value in harming me.
> 
> Its the same in SA, you can spend a lifetime there and experience nothing at all, no crime at all, in 50 of my 54 years there apart from a stolen car and some radios and a mugging that was akin to a bag snatching , nothing happened to me, to my friends, yes, but not to me.
> but when it did happen, it was a biggie.
> 
> living there is not an automatic guarantee that you will be mugged or murdered or raped.
> 
> but there's also no guarantee that someone wont look at you as having something they want.


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## Daxk

Luis, I agree with you that there are places all over th World you can get shot.
and thats not the argument, if you went into the Cape Flats you would probably survive, but if you lived there it would be akin to all the places you mentioned, Brazils Favelas or Detroit come to mind,
and I also agree that the largest amount of murders and rapes in SA happen in the locations that your average tourist or expat and in some cases Citizens would never visit...

and yes, I agree that crime happens everywhere, I did a quick search on another thread, last year there were 316 home invasions in Belgium, 1 a day, and the Netherlands had 3 a day,
and Cape Town has historically had less crime than Gauteng and Durban.

but the difference is the home invasions were not coupled with the senseless violence you find in SA
and there were 113,000 of them 2009/10 of which 12,500 happened in the Western Cape.

because thats what people fear.
not getting stabbed in a place you are unlikely to visit, but someone having total control of you and your family, within the walls of your home, where no-one can see what is going on.

and some of that may well happen in the Locations, but the locations dont have 3 or 4 TV's and lots of goodies that an upmarket suburban Home has.


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## Bootes

luismg said:


> Alright Daxk, but can't we say exactly the same about millions of other places in the world?
> 
> Even in the so called "first world" there are places where you can get shot and nobody would care.
> For example, in east Los Angeles there are neighborhoods with gangs killing each other with automatic weapons. However, I don't read comments from thousands of Californians warning people about violence in their city.
> You know what I mean?
> 
> Rio de Janeiro is also a dangerous place, but it receives millions of tourists every year. Even in my country there are crimes every day in the news (and everywhere) but hey, this is where the world is going (right to hell).
> 
> Is Cape Town different? Better? Worse? (note that I'm asking about CP, not the rest of the country).
> 
> By the way, I noted some beggars, specially along the famous beaches of Camps Bay and outside of restaurants. But I've also seen them in Paris, New York or London.
> 
> One anecdote: My friends and I bought some sandwiches and sodas in a supermarket, just in front of Camps Bay beach (I'm sure you know where, it's the only one in the area), and then we crossed the street to have a little pic-nic in the beach. Almost immediately, some people approached us to sell us shades, handycrafts, etc... when we refused to buy, they started asking us for food.
> They were so insistent that I just gave one of them my sandwich.
> 
> The guy seemed to be incredibly happy and he said to me thank you a million times. This is when I realized he was not just an annoying beggar. He was really hungry, and he said something about the rising cost of food and the people of the townships (I couldn't understand exactly... his accent was too difficult to my ears).
> 
> So you know, I believe that I can visit this city a million times and still don't know how things are there.
> 
> So to summarize: My impression is that CP is not different than any other city of the "first world". The only thing that gave me some fear were the news.
> I believe I am a rather smart guy who knows how to act in the streets, but I never felt threatened at all.
> 
> All this left me wonder that, maybe, southafricans are just too smart to hide poverty from tourists, and perhaps the nasty reality is just hidden behind a big wall... I don't know.


You're 100% right to doubt the high level of panic the media and certain people present about South Africa. The gross majority of middle classed South Africans will never be exposed to violent crime (It's extremely unlikely to happen to you). Ask yourself, if it was such a dangerous place to live, how do you explain all the people who "risk ther lives" to hang out at bars and go shopping for tropical fish ? I hope you get what I mean. DAkx wants you to think that our lives are all fixated around crime. In reality we middle class think more about what golf course we are going to play on the weekend that crime.


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## Johanna

Bootes said:


> You're 100% right to doubt the high level of panic the media and certain people present about South Africa. The gross majority of middle classed South Africans will never be exposed to violent crime (It's extremely unlikely to happen to you). Ask yourself, if it was such a dangerous place to live, how do you explain all the people who "risk ther lives" to hang out at bars and go shopping for tropical fish ? I hope you get what I mean. DAkx wants you to think that our lives are all fixated around crime. In reality we middle class think more about what golf course we are going to play on the weekend that crime.


I have to agree with you Bootes... 72 000 people went to the U2 concert last night... and many more go shopping, visiting , etc on a daily basis.

I feel very sorry for people who were and are affected by crime in any country.

For the record, another farmer was murdered today .... Stellenbosch


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## vegasboy

Johanna said:


> I have to agree with you Bootes... 72 000 people went to the U2 concert last night... and many more go shopping, visiting , etc on a daily basis.
> 
> I feel very sorry for people who were and are affected by crime in any country.
> 
> For the record, another farmer was murdered today .... Stellenbosch


 So sad, and the day after the Stellenbosch farmer was murdered another farmer in Frankfort, Free State was murdered, the third farm murder in the Free State this week.

I believe the fanwalk in CT was a great success. Awesome.


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## Daxk

That is so typically South African.
We ignored the injustice of Apartheid for 48 years because unless you were black or had a black recessive gene child born ,it did not affect you.
It happened to other people.

So too with the crime rate, unless it directly affected you, it does not exist.
except to other people.
because thinking about it means you have to do something about it.

And bootes / Roooster/aka many others tries to rather shoot the messenger,


This was written by a guy called Lockstock and sums it perfectly
"This is what gets me about the sheer stupidity of remaining, brain-drained South Africans; all crime is somehow equal, crime 'happens everywhere', and a raft of other platitudes are eagerly lapped up by those hell-bent in protecting the outright racial hatred that permeates through South African society. You're all eager to accept that historically black Saffers are at a disadvantage when the argument suits, but whenever it's hinted that it may boil over into some committing the most horrendous of crimes, you're suddenly defensive?

The truth is the majority of black-on-black murder and assaults are the result of political infraction, arguments over a woman at a shebeen, or because of some drunken, tik-fueled argument. Or just because 'sommer'.

Black-on-white murders are for no such reasons. But what separates the racial crime is the sheer hatred involved, and so it goes with the murder of farmers which seem to have been orchestrated by the brazen, often intent on torturing and humiliating the family, raping and only then pillaging. If these were all simple robberies gone wrong, or robbers who defended themselves, then they wouldn't have to go to such lengths to get their ill-gotten trinkets. Rarely in proper, normal countries does a simple burglary manifest into a rape, torture or murder orgy.

There's something wrong with the people who commit these heinous acts, and with those who defend them and their 'honour'."


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## Bootes

I don't defend criminals. But I also don't fixate on violent crime. I will far more likely get cancer this year (to the factor of hundreds) than get murdered. I certainly don't make my whole life about worrying about cancer, so why should I make it about something comparitively far less lkely to happen ? 

After all I know many people who have died from/are struggling with cancer. None that were murdered. Do you also spent time on forums of people who smoke cigarettes rebuking them with the same energy ?


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## vegasboy

Bootes said:


> I don't defend criminals. But I also don't fixate on violent crime. I will far more likely get cancer this year (to the factor of hundreds) than get murdered. I certainly don't make my whole life about worrying about cancer, so why should I make it about something comparitively far less lkely to happen ?
> 
> After all I know many people who have died from/are struggling with cancer. None that were murdered. Do you also spent time on forums of people who smoke cigarettes rebuking them with the same energy ?


 Is Bootes the Rooster re incarnate? :focus: The OP asked opinions on the real situation in Cape Town. What is your problem when members give their opinion which does not fit in with yours? And to compare brutal, violent barbaric crime like rape of babies, children, adults and the elderly on a daily basis, or violent crime where people are maimed and slaughtered, regardless of their skin colour with cancer, is plain idiotic.

How can anyone be so arrogant to quote stats insinuating that because crime in white areas are lower than in blacks', white South Africans are not so bad off? That way of thinking in itself is racist. Bootes is either very young (snotkop) or very uninformed.


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## Daxk

Bootes said:


> I don't defend criminals. But I also don't fixate on violent crime. I will far more likely get cancer this year (to the factor of hundreds) than get murdered. I certainly don't make my whole life about worrying about cancer, so why should I make it about something comparitively far less lkely to happen ?
> 
> After all I know many people who have died from/are struggling with cancer. None that were murdered. Do you also spent time on forums of people who smoke cigarettes rebuking them with the same energy ?


You do by trying to find excuses for the causes of crime.

I don't fixate on crime, I fixate on people who try and minimise what is an accepted fact, SA has a major violent crime problem and rather than trying to improve it or solve it, would rather find excuses for it.

with the exception of Lung cancer and smoking, very few cancers are preventable.
so your analogy is quite good,
lets take Lung cancer,millions of South Africans smoke DESPITE the fact that they are more susceptible to lug cancer, does that mean they wont get it?

Taking it to the next level, how does a non-smoking parent feel about their children being exposed to passive smoke in confined spaces?
As an ex-smoker I would ensure that my child was not exposed to lets say being driven by the smoker in a School bus or car.

And I doubt there is a single non-smoking parent who would disagree with me.
but taking your analogy with crime my child may not contract lung cancer from passive smoking, and if she did it might only happen years down the road.

do you still think its ok to take that chance?

I dont, I dont care about smokers, used to smoke myself, until I had a child.
but they dont smoke in my home or my car if my child is present.
and I think any parent who smokes in their car or home is risking their childs health and happiness.

exactly the same as taking them to SA.


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## Siouxzee

As I have said in other posts - Bootes you seem to only fixate on murders - there are many other aggresive crimes happening daily in South Africa which affect everybody regardless of colour, religion, sex, age, these include rape, armed robberies, poisoning of animals to commit armed robberies, highjackings, smash and grabs etc.
@Luis South Africa has alot to often and Cape Town is a fantastic City. The DA who currenltly run the City of Cape Town have been given an unqualified audit due to its clean governance and accountability in running the Western Cape.
Yes there are many of us who are choosing to leave for various reasons and I do happen to one those.
My advice is to read the various posts on this forums, there are people for and against and hopefully from getting both sides you will be able to make an informed decision. 
Also read sites like news24.co.za and iol.co.za as they are the News sites. Yes the media does hype things up but it will give you an insight into things.


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## Bootes

Daxk said:


> You do by trying to find excuses for the causes of crime.
> 
> I don't fixate on crime, I fixate on people who try and minimise what is an accepted fact, SA has a major violent crime problem and rather than trying to improve it or solve it, would rather find excuses for it.
> 
> with the exception of Lung cancer and smoking, very few cancers are preventable.
> so your analogy is quite good,
> lets take Lung cancer,millions of South Africans smoke DESPITE the fact that they are more susceptible to lug cancer, does that mean they wont get it?
> 
> Taking it to the next level, how does a non-smoking parent feel about their children being exposed to passive smoke in confined spaces?
> As an ex-smoker I would ensure that my child was not exposed to lets say being driven by the smoker in a School bus or car.
> 
> And I doubt there is a single non-smoking parent who would disagree with me.
> but taking your analogy with crime my child may not contract lung cancer from passive smoking, and if she did it might only happen years down the road.
> 
> do you still think its ok to take that chance?
> 
> I dont, I dont care about smokers, used to smoke myself, until I had a child.
> but they dont smoke in my home or my car if my child is present.
> and I think any parent who smokes in their car or home is risking their childs health and happiness.
> 
> exactly the same as taking them to SA.






The point was simple.Let's try again. You have for example a 10 times higher chance of dying in a car crash if you move to X place you loved rather than Ireland. Would that stop you ? The chances are still extremely low of dying in a car crash after all. 

Anyway, each to their own. Human beings come in aried degrees of neurosis I suppose.


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## Bootes

Siouxzee said:


> As I have said in other posts - Bootes you seem to only fixate on murders - there are many other aggresive crimes happening daily in South Africa which affect everybody regardless of colour, religion, sex, age, these include rape, armed robberies, poisoning of animals to commit armed robberies, highjackings, smash and grabs etc.
> @Luis South Africa has alot to often and Cape Town is a fantastic City. The DA who currenltly run the City of Cape Town have been given an unqualified audit due to its clean governance and accountability in running the Western Cape.
> Yes there are many of us who are choosing to leave for various reasons and I do happen to one those.
> My advice is to read the various posts on this forums, there are people for and against and hopefully from getting both sides you will be able to make an informed decision.
> Also read sites like news24.co.za and iol.co.za as they are the News sites. Yes the media does hype things up but it will give you an insight into things.


No they don't affect everybody equally. That's a lie.


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## Siouxzee

@Bootes - That is completely uncalled for. There is no need to insult people for having an opinion when you are so freely allowed to have yours. - regarding your response to Dax


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## Daxk

Bootes said:


> Anyway, each to their own. Human beings come in aried degrees of neurosis I suppose.


In this I will bow to your superior knowledge!


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