# Land Division Problem ?



## Phildave (Jul 27, 2011)

Any help would be appreciated ...........

Six years ago we purchased a (25 yr old) property in Chiclana eventually to move into but in the interim as a holiday home for us.

The property was on a large piece of land and the seller agreed to "divide" the land into two - 60% for us and the 40% remaining he would keep (and build another villa on). 

It has taken all this time to get the land "registered" in our name so we have been giving 1/2 of the IBI to the old owner who has been paying it (giving us receipts) for the past 6 years

We now find that as there are now 2 houses on the original land the IBI office have hoisted up the amount due (doubled it) and backdated it 4 years. We have not received anything from the IBI as our post was going to the local Venta (we are now arranging a Post Box) so we have nothing concrete - a worry, but not our biggest worry ...........................................................

We have been told by someone that now any land in Chiclana that is not divided equally goes in the name of the majority owner and they pay the TOTAL amount due and it is down to them to collect any payments from the other (minority) owners.

Obviously, this is a bigger worry to us than the 700E one off payment as this could recur every year and what would happen if our neighbour (who we get on well with) sells his property who we may possibly not get on with and not be able to collect payments n(or we decide to sell our property).

Apologies for the long posting. Any advice appreciated.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Phildave said:


> Any help would be appreciated ...........
> 
> Six years ago we purchased a (25 yr old) property in Chiclana eventually to move into but in the interim as a holiday home for us.
> 
> ...


Hi there - we are nearly neighbours! I live about 40 km inland from Chiclana.

Have you contacted ChiFRA, the Chiclana Foreign Residents Association? They can offer expert advice on things like this. www.chifra.org - Home

If the property has been correctly registered however, with two separate catastral entries, I would have thought they could issue two separate IBI bills in future?


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

First question, in whose name is the land registered?

Second question, has the land been formally divided?

Third question, do the documents you have in your possesion state you own x amount of land?

Fourth question, does your neighbour have similar documents stating he owns y amount of land?

Fifth question, have you actually received a bill stating you must pay for all the land/houses?

It seems extremely unfair to me that you have to pay for both plots if it has been divided properly.


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## djfwells (Sep 28, 2009)

Spain has two completely different Government Agencies that are responsible for the registration of your property: The Catastro and The Registro de la Propiedad.

You should also check that the division has been correctly and legally carried out at BOTH land registry agencies, as they work independantly of each other. Just because everything has been done correctly does not mean that the same will be true of the other agency.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

djfwells said:


> Spain has two completely different Government Agencies that are responsible for the registration of your property: The Catastro and The Registro de la Propiedad.
> 
> You should also check that the division has been correctly and legally carried out at BOTH land registry agencies, as they work independantly of each other. Just because everything has been done correctly does not mean that the same will be true of the other agency.


Do you know how the OP can check this online, given that they don't live here? I remember my OH looking up our house once on some website but I can't remember where.


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## djfwells (Sep 28, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> Do you know how the OP can check this online, given that they don't live here? I remember my OH looking up our house once on some website but I can't remember where.


You know how generous and public spirited I can be Alcalaina ...

https://www1.sedecatastro.gob.es/OVCFrames.aspx?TIPO=CONSULTA


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

djfwells said:


> You know how generous and public spirited I can be Alcalaina ...
> 
> https://www1.sedecatastro.gob.es/OVCFrames.aspx?TIPO=CONSULTA


What a great site, used it to check on my disputed piece of land, however, I noted it doesnt actually say who owns what, do you know if there is a site I can look at that will? 

Thanks.


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## djfwells (Sep 28, 2009)

JoCatalunya said:


> What a great site, used it to check on my disputed piece of land, however, I noted it doesnt actually say who owns what, do you know if there is a site I can look at that will?
> 
> Thanks.


Down my neck of the woods SUMA help with that information (A Privately run agency that basically takes on responsibility for Tax collection etc... on behalf of the provincial govt), but I am aware that you don't have that up your way.

At least it will advise you of the official grid reference points and identification codes so you can talk to your Ayuntamiento about this.

Did you note the feature that allows you to print out the exact official Catastro map detailing your plot ?


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

djfwells said:


> Down my neck of the woods SUMA help with that information (A Privately run agency that basically takes on responsibility for Tax collection etc... on behalf of the provincial govt), but I am aware that you don't have that up your way.
> 
> At least it will advise you of the official grid reference points and identification codes so you can talk to your Ayuntamiento about this.
> 
> Did you note the feature that allows you to print out the exact official Catastro map detailing your plot ?


I did indeed, very useful, however our local tax collectors are BASE and they are about as helpful and efficient as a catflap on a submarine. They actually reckon I should be paying 4000+ euros a year for my rustica land so you can understand if I have no faith in them. 

I will print off the relevant paperwork however and mosey on down to my local Ajuntament and have a chat. However, seeing as this village is a definite candidate for a banjo playing apple sauce sucking inbreeding award I do not hold much hope I will get a fair hearing or result. 

Oooooohhhh do I sound a tad synical?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

JoCatalunya said:


> ...as helpful and efficient as a catflap on a submarine.


Priceless - I will add that to my collection along with chocolate teapots and teats on a boar-hog.


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## Phildave (Jul 27, 2011)

My thanks to both djfwells & alcalaina.

Following your advice I checked on the The Catastro weblink and the land is still shown as undivided !! (in your experiance is this usually up to date ?). 

Can I also do the same for The Registro de la Propiedad is see if the property IS in my name............
the only reply I get from my lawyer is "everything is fine" which I am now beginging to concerned about.
Thanks again,
Phil


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Well, it's not unknown in Spain for records to be out of date ...

You need to get firm with your lawyer and demand to know exactly what is happening. You are paying him after all!


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## Phildave (Jul 27, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> Well, it's not unknown in Spain for records to be out of date ...
> 
> You need to get firm with your lawyer and demand to know exactly what is happening. You are paying him after all!


Thanks Alcalaina,
Easier said than done living in the UK.
Beginning to think it may be worth cutting my losses and getting a new (inpartial - see above ) lawyer. I know the Spanish are "laid back" but the "No problem" is getting tiresome.

Phil


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Phildave said:


> Thanks Alcalaina,
> Easier said than done living in the UK.
> Beginning to think it may be worth cutting my losses and getting a new (inpartial - see above ) lawyer. I know the Spanish are "laid back" but the "No problem" is getting tiresome.
> 
> Phil


I know what you mean! I will PM you with the name of the one we used, he was very thorough. He's based in Cadiz and speaks English.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

It is my understanding (limited, agreed) that if you get one of those digital signatures, then you can get access to parts of the Catastral that the public cannot including names and where they live.


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## djfwells (Sep 28, 2009)

Phildave said:


> My thanks to both djfwells & alcalaina.
> 
> Following your advice I checked on the The Catastro weblink and the land is still shown as undivided !! (in your experiance is this usually up to date ?).
> 
> ...


Was the land not drawn up by an official cartographer prior to the sale going through and the official plans included in your copia simple / compraventa ?

If not how was it described in the escritura ?

There seems to be a lot of questions that you need to be asking your lawyer here.


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## JoCatalunya (Mar 16, 2011)

Basically I would kick your lawyer into touch and get yourself a new one. He sounds very similar to our notary who messed up everything at every opportunity because she was inept. (she eventually got sacked as a notary so what does that tell you).

Good luck and do let us know what happens.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2011)

Alcalaina said:


> ...teats on a boar-hog.


Hunter S Thompson?


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## VFR (Dec 23, 2009)

Yossa said:


> Hunter S Thompson?


No it was Crocodile Dundee


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2011)

and chocolate fireguard


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2011)

playamonte said:


> No it was Crocodile Dundee


Can´t be right. You´re pulling me leg!

HST used that phrase in novels such as Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, as well as in his political coverage of Nixon/Kennedy during sixties for Rolling Stone.

Crocodile Dundee was an ´80´s abberation...


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