# Starting the Visa Process / American wants to move to France



## PassportandPastry

We've had enough and are ready to get out of Dodge... or something like that. My husband and I are totally obsessed with watching all the expats buy and renovate homes in France, either for themselves, or as B&B businesses, and now we want to make the jump!

Preliminary research would seem to indicate that we would either need to get one of the following:

1. Long stay visa and then NOT make any money in France, which would eliminate the whole B&B idea, but then would require us to still work our American based jobs remotely.
2. Find a job in France and get work visas (which feels unlikely), but if only one of us is able to get a job, would the visa extend to our spouse as well?
3. An entrepreneur visa (I think that's what it's called), but it seems really difficult to formulate a business plan that would be approved???

We would also like to know the process of purchasing property and how that may factor into each of these various visa types?

We're not opposed to any of these routes because it seems like it's easier to change the visa or apply for a different kind of visa after the initial approval, but I would really appreciate any advice or experience with any of these routes. Everything I've found online has been from either retired folks, students, or expats that had a EU spouse or some kind of EU connection that allowed them to go. We're just a couple of 40 somethings that want to start a new life.

HELP!


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## Bevdeforges

To put it bluntly, you're in a rather difficult situation here. There are obvious issues with the three scenarios you mention:

1. What you are describing here is a "visiteur" visa. (A "long-stay" visa is any visa granted for more than 3 months - whether or not there are working privileges attached, which is a whole different issue.) If you work remotely *from* France, you are working *IN* France and need to be properly registered for taxes and "cotisations" (social insurances). If your employers have a French office, they could transfer you to be on their French payroll - but most US employers won't consider this because the payroll taxes (i.e. the cotisations) are considerably more expensive on the employer side than in the US.

2. Ideally, at your ages, this is the preferred path. However, do you speak French? Are you both in professions that can be transferred to France? (Most medical qualifications are difficult to impossible to transfer, though you can sometimes work in a related type of job in industry.) And basically, for an employer to hire a foreigner, they generally have to prove that they have been unable to find someone already able to work in France who is sufficiently qualified. The exceptions to this rule are mostly in-demand technical folks (in areas where there are shortages of French or EU national candidates).

3. There is an "entrepreneur" option to the "Passeport Talent" category - but as you say, they aren't looking for folks setting up B&B's but more for "innovative" business plans where the folks applying have some serious experience in the type of business they are proposing. (The idea has generally been that the foreigners are "bringing something" to France or that will benefit France - a new technology, a new way of doing business, etc.)

Purchasing property (other than as part of a business plan) really has no affect on your ability to get a visa. There are no particular restrictions (or benefits) for foreigners who own French property (as long as you pay all the appropriate taxes and abide by the various rules that apply to the property).


PassportandPastry said:


> Everything I've found online has been from either retired folks, students, or expats that had a EU spouse or some kind of EU connection that allowed them to go.


Yup, those tend to be the primary categories of expats here in France. France isn't really all that interested in drawing people who want to "start a new life." Unless, of course, you have some talent or ideas that could be a benefit to France. 

It's also not that easy to change your residence permit category once you're here. So it pays to do your planning up front. You don't have to reveal personal information here on the message board, but consider what your work qualifications are, what your level of French is, and consider how likely it is you might be able to find a job here in France. You'll need to study the job market and understand the French "obsession" (or so it seems) with formal qualifications and how to present them on a French CV (which is more like the US resumé). Or, if you want to go the "entrepreneurial" route, then you need to study the French marketplace to try to come up with a business plan that meets some need of France and French society (and maybe creates a little employment for French locals).

I'm not trying to be negative here - just very realistic. Think about why France, in particular. France can be an aggravating place for those used to the "anglo-saxon" world (particularly when it comes to work, and labor laws, and regulations, and taxes). I happen to be married to a French citizen, but even then, the first several years here were tough. Now, you couldn't drag me out of here - but lots has changed in the 25 or 30 years I've been here. Think through very carefully what you are trying to accomplish by making this sort of a move.


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## PassportandPastry

Bevdeforges said:


> To put it bluntly, you're in a rather difficult situation here. There are obvious issues with the three scenarios you mention:
> 
> 1. What you are describing here is a "visiteur" visa. (A "long-stay" visa is any visa granted for more than 3 months - whether or not there are working privileges attached, which is a whole different issue.) If you work remotely *from* France, you are working *IN* France and need to be properly registered for taxes and "cotisations" (social insurances). If your employers have a French office, they could transfer you to be on their French payroll - but most US employers won't consider this because the payroll taxes (i.e. the cotisations) are considerably more expensive on the employer side than in the US.
> 
> 2. Ideally, at your ages, this is the preferred path. However, do you speak French? Are you both in professions that can be transferred to France? (Most medical qualifications are difficult to impossible to transfer, though you can sometimes work in a related type of job in industry.) And basically, for an employer to hire a foreigner, they generally have to prove that they have been unable to find someone already able to work in France who is sufficiently qualified. The exceptions to this rule are mostly in-demand technical folks (in areas where there are shortages of French or EU national candidates).
> 
> 3. There is an "entrepreneur" option to the "Passeport Talent" category - but as you say, they aren't looking for folks setting up B&B's but more for "innovative" business plans where the folks applying have some serious experience in the type of business they are proposing. (The idea has generally been that the foreigners are "bringing something" to France or that will benefit France - a new technology, a new way of doing business, etc.)
> 
> Purchasing property (other than as part of a business plan) really has no affect on your ability to get a visa. There are no particular restrictions (or benefits) for foreigners who own French property (as long as you pay all the appropriate taxes and abide by the various rules that apply to the property).
> 
> Yup, those tend to be the primary categories of expats here in France. France isn't really all that interested in drawing people who want to "start a new life." Unless, of course, you have some talent or ideas that could be a benefit to France.
> 
> It's also not that easy to change your residence permit category once you're here. So it pays to do your planning up front. You don't have to reveal personal information here on the message board, but consider what your work qualifications are, what your level of French is, and consider how likely it is you might be able to find a job here in France. You'll need to study the job market and understand the French "obsession" (or so it seems) with formal qualifications and how to present them on a French CV (which is more like the US resumé). Or, if you want to go the "entrepreneurial" route, then you need to study the French marketplace to try to come up with a business plan that meets some need of France and French society (and maybe creates a little employment for French locals).
> 
> I'm not trying to be negative here - just very realistic. Think about why France, in particular. France can be an aggravating place for those used to the "anglo-saxon" world (particularly when it comes to work, and labor laws, and regulations, and taxes). I happen to be married to a French citizen, but even then, the first several years here were tough. Now, you couldn't drag me out of here - but lots has changed in the 25 or 30 years I've been here. Think through very carefully what you are trying to accomplish by making this sort of a move.


Thank you so much for your thoughtful (albeit disheartening) feedback, I appreciate your insight.


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## MoonlitKnight

First - on the subject of renovation - the agent I worked with to buy my France property told me to expect about 2 years to get started on renovations because contractors are booked out that far. My property is half turn-key and half "to renovate", so it's not a critical issue for me. But just wanted to mention that. 

If your "obsession" stems from watching a French version of "Fixer Upper," I want to say I just completely gutted and renovated my house here in the Pacific Northwest just before covid drove up prices of materials and it was still about twice the cost of what Joanna and Chip say their renovations cost. Like, two hundred thousand vs one hundred thousand. 

I'm going to apply in person for my carte de séjour in a few weeks.
In my search for checklist of documents I'll need to bring to the appointment, I read this on the US French Embassy webpage (I'm retiring, so I don't intend to change my status, but it seems pertinent to your question):
Source: 
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...MQFnoECEYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3Juv3iNprmQvcp6hjDUhsi

"Note: It is not possible for an American or a citizen of most nonCommon Market countries to come to France as a tourist and then change his status to that of a worker, a student or a resident. The French authorities will require such individuals to return to their country of residence to apply for the appropriate visa. Bearers of long-stay visas must apply for a "Carte de séjour" within a week of their arrival."


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## JapanAmerica

If you are not wedded to France as a destination, you might want to look at some of the Portuguese visa categories. On a D7 visa, for example, you would be free to work even though the visa is based on your ability to support yourself with existing assets. There is also a Golden Visa option, which provides a path to citizenship based on the purchase of property or investments meeting the requirements. We looked seriously at Portugal but we are older than you and ultimately decided we would bite the bullet on the "no work" condition to the long stay visa we are pursuing in France.


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## 255

@PassportandPastry -- There is an old thread on the forum about a couple that did intend to buy, renovate and run a B&B. They wrote a detailed business plan with a five year pro forma and were successful in achieving the Passeport Talent. I don't think a business plan should be that difficult and any planning up-front will serve you well in the future. Any plan would need to show that you can support yourselves during construction and after the business is a going concern. Cheers, 255

P.S. We have an acquaintance that came to France at about your age for school. She married, had children and now owns multiple paid-off properties in Paris and Nice where she has a now sizeable passive income. She's now lived in France for nearly 40 years.


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## Bevdeforges

255 said:


> P.S. We have an acquaintance that came to France at about your age for school. She married, had children and now owns multiple paid-off properties in Paris and Nice where she has a now sizeable passive income. She's now lived in France for nearly 40 years.


I'm assuming that your friend married a French person - or possibly an EU national. That's the "A ticket" for changing residence status to something allowing you pretty much all the advantages of citizenship (other than voting). But I suspect it's not an option for our OP here.

The other thing to remember is that the "passeport talent" visa has been changing and evolving over the last 5 to 10 years, so what worked a few years ago may or may not work now. I suspect that to get a B&B project approved these days, you may need to have some experience in the hospitality industry and/or have the intent to expand and ultimately hire some employees to make the venture work. In any event, for just about any entrepreneurial venture like that, it would be a good idea to visit France on a sort of busman's holiday in order to scope out the situation, maybe line up potential customers, financial backers or other supporters and talk to the CCI to make sure you have a good handle on the legal side of setting up a business.


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## MoonlitKnight

I'd like to correct my previous post: I'll be applying for a long-stay visa, not the carte de séjour. 
Apologies for my sleep-deprived lapse of cognitive ability.


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## Bevdeforges

If you get a long-stay visa (of any type) you'll most likely be applying for a titre de séjour of some variety shortly after your arrival. <g>


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## MoonlitKnight

Bevdeforges said:


> If you get a long-stay visa (of any type) you'll most likely be applying for a titre de séjour of some variety shortly after your arrival. <g>


Right - if I can ever get the logistics in place to actually get to France ;-) 
I'm going to San Francisco to apply for the visa next month. I just didn't want to give the impression I was in France and applying for the carte before the horse... <bg>


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## PassportandPastry

MoonlitKnight said:


> First - on the subject of renovation - the agent I worked with to buy my France property told me to expect about 2 years to get started on renovations because contractors are booked out that far. My property is half turn-key and half "to renovate", so it's not a critical issue for me. But just wanted to mention that.
> 
> If your "obsession" stems from watching a French version of "Fixer Upper," I want to say I just completely gutted and renovated my house here in the Pacific Northwest just before covid drove up prices of materials and it was still about twice the cost of what Joanna and Chip say their renovations cost. Like, two hundred thousand vs one hundred thousand.
> 
> I'm going to apply in person for my carte de séjour in a few weeks.
> In my search for checklist of documents I'll need to bring to the appointment, I read this on the US French Embassy webpage (I'm retiring, so I don't intend to change my status, but it seems pertinent to your question):
> Source:
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...MQFnoECEYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3Juv3iNprmQvcp6hjDUhsi
> 
> "Note: It is not possible for an American or a citizen of most nonCommon Market countries to come to France as a tourist and then change his status to that of a worker, a student or a resident. The French authorities will require such individuals to return to their country of residence to apply for the appropriate visa. Bearers of long-stay visas must apply for a "Carte de séjour" within a week of their arrival."


This is very helpful, thank you!


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## ToutesDirections

I recognize the 'get out of Dodge sentiment' and send optimism your way.

Regarding option 1. have you dug into what it would practically be like to work at your American jobs remotely? 

A few years ago I spent 2 weeks working from my company's Paris office. Some aspects were easier than hoped and others were harder. My coworkers were mostly in a time zone -9 hours from Paris. What that meant in practice was I came into the office and worked solo for 6 hours before any of them were at their desks. Got a lot done! but it sometimes meant working 12 hour days (most of their day + the first 6 hours). Maybe if it was a permanent move I would have found ways to mitigate the time difference.

Each work situation is different and YMMV.


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