# SSN or TIN



## iota2014 (Jul 30, 2015)

Hypothetical question.

Say a US-born renunciant needed to file a 1040NR - perhaps to get withheld tax refunded. Would they file under their SSN (supposed to be only for USCs)? Or would they be required to obtain an ITIN?


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## JustLurking (Mar 25, 2015)

iota2014 said:


> Would they file under their SSN (supposed to be only for USCs)? Or would they be required to obtain an ITIN?


The first one. I file a 1040NR every year using my SSN.

SSNs are for life, regardless of any change of citizenship, visa or green card(*) status later on. Anyone working in the US can get an SSN -- you don't have to be a US citizen. The IRS won't issue an ITIN to anyone who already has an SSN. If an ITIN holder later obtains a SSN the ITIN is retired.

(*) As a former green card holder, at some distant future point I will use my SSN to claim US Social Security payments. I paid _a lot_ into that system over the years I spent working in the US.


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## iota2014 (Jul 30, 2015)

OK thanks JustLurking. My mistake then - I knew the SSN continued to be used for SS (I'm currently receiving SS pension), but was under the impression that for tax purposes it was SSN for citizens only.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Sorry, I was offline yesterday due to system problems. In any event, what JustLurking said. Once you have an SSN, you have it for life, no matter what you do about your citizenship. 
Cheers,
Bev


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## iota2014 (Jul 30, 2015)

Thanks Bev.

I realized later - it's the 1040 that's reserved for USCs, not the SSN. Senior moment.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

iota2014 said:


> Thanks Bev.
> 
> I realized later - it's the 1040 that's reserved for USCs, not the SSN. Senior moment.


Actually, the 1040 isn't reserved for USCs, but rather for "US Persons" (which includes Green Card holders and US residents subject to income taxes). The SSN is for USCs and those working in the US.
Cheers,
Bev


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## iota2014 (Jul 30, 2015)

Bevdeforges said:


> Actually, the 1040 isn't reserved for USCs, but rather for "US Persons" (which includes Green Card holders and US residents subject to income taxes).


Not for renunciants, at any rate. That's the restriction I absentmindedly and incorrectly transferred to SSNs.

I was thinking it would be useful if there was a type of number USCs couldn't have, or a type of number only USCs/USPs could have (so it would be obvious to a bank that a customer was not reportable, therefore not risky). But evidently there's not. Not surprising.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

What I've always found curious is that ITINs, FCC i.d. number and all sorts of other "federal" i.d. numbers in the system are all the same 9 digit format. (And more and more lately, they ask for them as 9 digits, not the old xxx-xx-xxxx format.)

How on earth do they distinguish a SSN from an ITIN from an FCC number from xxxxx if someone has given them the "wrong" identifier?
Cheers,
Bev


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## iota2014 (Jul 30, 2015)

The original, location-based SS identifier limits the unique numbers available quite drastically. Perhaps they're trying to find a solution. Not easy.

Edit - well under way, apparently: https://www.ssa.gov/employer/randomizationfaqs.html


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## JustLurking (Mar 25, 2015)

iota2014 said:


> I was thinking it would be useful if there was a type of number USCs couldn't have, or a type of number only USCs/USPs could have (so it would be obvious to a bank that a customer was not reportable, therefore not risky).


ITINs and SSNs are distinguishable. ITINs start with a '9', SSNs never do. A USC _should_ never hold an ITIN, so if a foreign bank encounters one it can be pretty sure the customer is not reportable. That's your first case covered.

The converse doesn't apply though, so your second case is not determinable. Non-USCs could hold ITINs or SSNs.

In any case, I doubt non-US banks are at all interested in working to make this type of subtle distinction. Far easier to just send the whole lot to the IRS and let them try to sort the wheat from the chaff.


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## iota2014 (Jul 30, 2015)

JustLurking said:


> In any case, I doubt non-US banks are at all interested in working to make this type of subtle distinction. Far easier to just send the whole lot to the IRS and let them try to sort the wheat from the chaff.


That's not what happens, for Model 1 countries. The bank holds the self-certifications and gets periodically audited. On the self-certification forms I've seen, TINs are required at onboarding (and for pre-existing accounts, at review) for each jurisdiction of tax-residence "if available", i.e. if it's a jurisdiction which uses TINs.

It would make life a lot simpler for the banks and for those of us with US birthplace, if the onboarding/reviewing process included a box to tick to indicate expatriation (citizenship or GC), together with a space for an easily verifiable identifier. But I agree it won't happen.


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