# Help! Panic! Mortgage!



## KenzoXIV

Hi all,

So I am going through the process of buying a house and a rather strange curveball has thrown itself up.

We saw the house and loved it. The price was great and came well within the too good to be true category but none the less we were happy. The agent said to make an offer we need to sign the compromesso which we did.

Asking advice of all those around me nobody told me this was the moment I should engage lawyers/notaries. In fact people told me to wait until I had an offer accepted. So we signed and handed over €3k as a goodwill payment which I was informed was normal.

In applying for a mortgage it has come up that the house is owned by one guy who had it 'Donated' to him a couple of years ago by his brother. They need to get some sort of insurance to cover the cost of the mortgage if the first brother claims the house back.....

Surely this is fraud. Like on a ridiculous level. The bank told me that because the house has been donated the first brother within 10 years can claim it back effectively putting us on the street and very much out of pocket. This must be fraud. The agent didn't mention anything like this before signing the compromesso and now we are feeling very very cheated.

What angers me most is no one in my social circle advised me to get a lawyer. In fact they discouraged it. I should have come here first!

Is this really a thing. Are we really liable up to 10 years to be kicked out. What if we make improvements etc he can just claim them for free?

Seems madness and now my wife (Who is pregnant) is absolutely distraught.

Any advice or insight very welcome.

Kenzo


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## PauloPievese

*Quitclaim*

I am possibly the worst possible person to offer advice but that hasn't stopped me before and it won't stop me now.

Presuming that this isn't a scam; I mean, it's possible, we in the U.S. at least have what is known as a quitclaim deed where the owner divests himself of any interest in the property. I WOULD hire an attorney and through this mechanism seek out the brother to determine his intentions.

I dug up this info on the Italian donation deed:
https://www.studiolegalemetta.com/en/italian-donation-deed/
which makes it seem more of a tax dodge than a scam for a future purchaser (you).

Buona fortuna

:flypig:


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## KenzoXIV

PauloPievese said:


> I am possibly the worst possible person to offer advice but that hasn't stopped me before and it won't stop me now.
> 
> Presuming that this isn't a scam; I mean, it's possible, we in the U.S. at least have what is known as a quitclaim deed where the owner divests himself of any interest in the property. I WOULD hire an attorney and through this mechanism seek out the brother to determine his intentions.
> 
> I dug up this info on the Italian donation deed:
> https://www.studiolegalemetta.com/en/italian-donation-deed/
> which makes it seem more of a tax dodge than a scam for a future purchaser (you).
> 
> Buona fortuna
> 
> :flypig:


Thanks Paulo,

Yes I think your right. I know who the brother is as I was in his house this morning testing wifi speeds. 10mb  Thats what you get for the peace and quiet of the countryside!

They seem legitimate but it is a curveball I was not expecting. I am going back to the agency this afternoon for clarification.

Anyone know any English speaking lawyers in Sicily preferably Palermo (A big ask I know)

Kenzo


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## NickZ

I don't think I know an Italian who uses a lawyer. So don't be upset nobody suggested it.

Talk to the Notaio. If the Notaio thinks something is wrong they'll block the sale.


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## KenzoXIV

Hi Nick,

Yeah same here. People do seem to prefer dealing with things without lawyers. 

Just worried that in making a move to secure the future for our little ones we will end up messing up our present!

Apparently we should have checked to see if the house is 'ipotecata' before signing the compromesso as well but again I was misadvised... 

Who do I need to go to check that?

Kenzo


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## accbgb

In the US, we have something called "Title Insurance" which is not only a good idea, but something demanded by mortgage lenders.

Title Insurance protects all parties from situations such as described by the original poster. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_insurance for more info.


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## NickZ

KenzoXIV said:


> Apparently we should have checked to see if the house is 'ipotecata' before signing the compromesso as well but again I was misadvised...


That's a mortgage. The Notaio is going to make sure the title is clear including no mortgage.

One of the properties I was looking at last year was pulled off the market before I could view it because the Notaio decided he didn't like the title situation.


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## NickZ

BTW have you talked to your bank about this? They'll want to make sure the property is clear before handing you a mortgage.


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## rsetzer99

The Compromesso is a legally binding contract. It usually comes a bit after an offer is accepted. It is prepared by the Notaio and must be in Italian and in your native language. It also must specify whether there are any legal barriers to buying the house. In other words. someone has to have investigated if the seller has clear title to sell the property. Also, if the seller cannot sell you the property and has to cancel the sale, he could be liable to pay you compensation. 

Your agent should have been on top of this from the very beginning. Are they an actually registered agent? I have seen cases there the agent is just someone who introduces the parties and then says your on your own to figure it all out.


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## Troz

We used an English-speaking lawyer (not in Sicily alas so no point recommending him). 

Italian friends were dismissive of the idea - "why pay someone to do something that you could do yourself?". But we were glad we did, not because the lawyer identified serious issues, but because for the cost (not exorbitant by Australian standards) we were buying extra peace of mind at what was already a mildly stressful time.

An expat acquaintance told us the story (possibly apocryphal) of a foreign couple who bought a property out in the country without a lawyer. Money was handed over, door keys handed back, title deeds registered, and all looked OK. They drove to their new property to find the front gates locked. No-one had told them that the driveway crossed the neighbouring farmer's property, and that he would require payment before allowing them in.

At that point we decided to go for the lawyer right at the start of the process.

There is another consideration, which may not apply to you. As explained to us, under Italian law, you cannot enter into a contract as a foreigner unless you can demonstrate that you speak and read Italian well enough to understand the legal implications of signing. Since we couldn't really claim that, we signed over a limited power of attorney (procura speciale) to our lawyer which enabled him to sign the purchase contract on our behalf, and gave him the responsibility of ensuring that we understood everything. Having our own lawyer was also helpful in dealing with the Notaio, who seemed inclined to look for difficulties that our lawyer had foreseen. At the last minute our lawyer dealt with a problem when the vendors decided they needed the bank cheque made out to a different beneficiary!

And afterwards (do not underrate the importance of this) your lawyer will be part of your network of acquaintances in your new home town. Buy him or her a nice present.


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## GeordieBorn

In many ways I agreed that having a solicitor in Italy was a total waste of money. However for many reasons above from Troz we were pleased we did and it did not cost a lot in the scheme of things.


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## Troz

Troz said:


> As explained to us, under Italian law, you cannot enter into a contract as a foreigner unless you can demonstrate that you speak and read Italian well enough to understand the legal implications of signing ...we signed over a limited power of attorney (procura speciale) to our lawyer which enabled him to sign the purchase contract on our behalf


To be fully accurate, I should have added "or, you can pay to have the whole contract translated by a government-accredited translator". Since our contract ran to 22 pages, I can't even begin to think what that would have cost!


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## NickZ

You could have a translator translate the Notaio meeting. The Notaio is going to require it if you don't seem fluent or close to it. It's not so much a citizenship issue. An Italian citizen who didn't understand Italian would have the same problem.


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## KenzoXIV

Troz said:


> We used an English-speaking lawyer (not in Sicily alas so no point recommending him).
> 
> Italian friends were dismissive of the idea - "why pay someone to do something that you could do yourself?". But we were glad we did, not because the lawyer identified serious issues, but because for the cost (not exorbitant by Australian standards) we were buying extra peace of mind at what was already a mildly stressful time.
> 
> An expat acquaintance told us the story (possibly apocryphal) of a foreign couple who bought a property out in the country without a lawyer. Money was handed over, door keys handed back, title deeds registered, and all looked OK. They drove to their new property to find the front gates locked. No-one had told them that the driveway crossed the neighbouring farmer's property, and that he would require payment before allowing them in.
> 
> At that point we decided to go for the lawyer right at the start of the process.
> 
> There is another consideration, which may not apply to you. As explained to us, under Italian law, you cannot enter into a contract as a foreigner unless you can demonstrate that you speak and read Italian well enough to understand the legal implications of signing. Since we couldn't really claim that, we signed over a limited power of attorney (procura speciale) to our lawyer which enabled him to sign the purchase contract on our behalf, and gave him the responsibility of ensuring that we understood everything. Having our own lawyer was also helpful in dealing with the Notaio, who seemed inclined to look for difficulties that our lawyer had foreseen. At the last minute our lawyer dealt with a problem when the vendors decided they needed the bank cheque made out to a different beneficiary!
> 
> And afterwards (do not underrate the importance of this) your lawyer will be part of your network of acquaintances in your new home town. Buy him or her a nice present.


Hi all,

Sorry for not replying.. I have been getting very lost in all of this.

So I am buying with my wife who is Sicilian and my Italian is OK. My problem is more about experience and understanding the consequences of the issue.

The donation will be removed from the property a couple of days before the signing of the paperwork so that problem has been resolved but a new one (surprise surprise) has come up. We have asked a notary to look into the property and apparently in 2012 the owner did some work that needed to be completed by 2015. My understanding is that work was not completed and the house does not currently have the certificato d'agibilità.

Now I have gone through pages and pages on the internet many of which tell me that it will cost me under €1000 to resolve and some which say it can be as high as €6000.

Has anyone got experience of this. Unfortunately my Sicilian circle when I ask look at me more blankly than I look at them and worse is when they say... "Ah you'll be alright you don't really need that"... Just seems a very Sicilian attitude towards it. The notary seemed suitably alarmed however.

Any and all help gratefully appreciated.

Kenzo


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## NickZ

Ask the Notaio. He might not be willing to conclude the deal.

The other thing is to wander over to the town hall and start asking questions. They'll be better than us at giving you an idea on costs.


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## Troz

Regarding the existence or otherwise of the appropriate permits and certificates, and rectifying any issues, we used a _geometrà_ (sort of between a builder and an architect). We were planning some renovations so were going to need one anyway, but this fellow was very helpful and well-connected at the local town hall as well. And he is cheaper than a lawyer!

PS: the notaio is a gatekeeper, and more influential than a public notary in the UK or Australia. It's in his or her nature to raise problems. Ours raised questions about whether there were inconsistencies between Italian and Australian property ownership and inheritance laws, of all things. We were buying the property in my name, and he thought there might be a problem if I pre-decease my wife. He then went on to find the solutions himself, after scaring us.


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## KenzoXIV

Troz said:


> Regarding the existence or otherwise of the appropriate permits and certificates, and rectifying any issues, we used a _geometrà_ (sort of between a builder and an architect). We were planning some renovations so were going to need one anyway, but this fellow was very helpful and well-connected at the local town hall as well. And he is cheaper than a lawyer!
> 
> PS: the notaio is a gatekeeper, and more influential than a public notary in the UK or Australia. It's in his or her nature to raise problems. Ours raised questions about whether there were inconsistencies between Italian and Australian property ownership and inheritance laws, of all things. We were buying the property in my name, and he thought there might be a problem if I pre-decease my wife. He then went on to find the solutions himself, after scaring us.


I am quite happy to be scared if it is legitimate. My biggest fear is getting the house and then not being able to live in it. 

Nearly every Sicilian I have spoken to (not exaggerating) has told me their houses do not have this certificate. I know things are less controlled down here than the North but just want to make sure I won't pass any problems on to my kids.... God knows when I became this mature :heh:

I will keep digging with the comunes and notaio but for now any future readers having a browse key points are:

1/ Does the house have a "Donazione" if it DOES this is BAD and could leave you massively out of pocket for the entire value of the house + and even put you on the street!

2/ Does the house have a certificato d'agibilità. If it DOESN'T then you may not be able to legally live their without being fined. 

3/ DO NOT SIGN A COMPROMESSO BEFORE GETTING PAPERWORK LOOKED AT BY A NOTAIO OR LAWYER! Regardless of how the nice agency man smiles and tells you the entire process is about trust!:spy:

If it helps just one person in future then job done!

Kenzo


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## NickZ

Well no agibilita means no residence. Aren't you already living in the house? I thought so


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## KenzoXIV

NickZ said:


> Well no agibilita means no residence. Aren't you already living in the house? I thought so


Hi Nick,

No not yet. From what we have been told we can live in the house, we can have residence, but then we get an administrative fine + cost to put it right if the house gets controlled.

Which in Sicily is unlikely... then again you only need to spend 5 minutes in a Sicilian comune to realise they make it up as they go along

Kenzo


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## NickZ

Is anybody else living there? Or is it vacant?


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## KenzoXIV

NickZ said:


> Is anybody else living there? Or is it vacant?


Vacant at the moment.


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## NickZ

Does it have utilities connected and running?

If not budget for that. Worse case is if it's off the electrical grid. But just turning on the various utilities will take some effort plus the deposits. 

Of course with me Enel still hasn't sent me a bill since Oct. They keep telling me not to worry. I'll give them twenty years than I'll sell and more -)


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## KenzoXIV

NickZ said:


> Does it have utilities connected and running?
> 
> If not budget for that. Worse case is if it's off the electrical grid. But just turning on the various utilities will take some effort plus the deposits.
> 
> Of course with me Enel still hasn't sent me a bill since Oct. They keep telling me not to worry. I'll give them twenty years than I'll sell and more -)


Hi Nick,

It is on the grid but its not up and running, the contract was removed from the house 5 years ago when the father of the owner died. So yes the switch on costs will be there... (Any idea what these would be on the off chance?)

Kenzo


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## NickZ

I don't think they charged me a thing. But I signed a contract with the money coming out of my bank account. I think. It's either that or being charged straight to my credit card. OTOH all they did was turn on the power from the office. It's not like they even came over.

If you have an old style account that they send you a bill to pay at the post office you'll have to pay the deposit. No idea what it is currently but I think €50 or so?

The new offers from Enel are worth signing up online. Just read the terms some of them are less advantageous than they make them out to be. For example the one they had on TV with the "free" night time offer. That was a bad deal for most people


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## Troz

Quite seriously, getting the utilities (including internet) sorted out at our place took longer and required more paperwork than anything else! Admittedly that was because we were changing suppliers for gas and electricity. Bought the place in August, first bill from new supplier in February. But at no stage were we cut off or overcharged.


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## sxmhousewife

Hello Troz, I has just posed a question here to look for a property lawyer in Puglia and then find this thread. May I know where is your lawyer? thank you.


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## Troz

Hello sxmhousewife. My lawyer was in Umbria so probably not able to help you. I hope another forum member can help.


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## KenzoXIV

:faint: and the fun continues.....

So lets recap.. Signed a compromesso in February.. it expires the end of this month...

I am going for 100% mortgage plus a little extra to pay for fees...

The bank now have decided too much time has passed and we have to start the pratica again... :faint:

Now the *Agency* are saying this is the *Banks* mistake. The bank got all the guarantees necessary and decided at the last moment yesterday to say the documentation doesn't prove I have been resident for 3 years in Italy so I can't have the mortgage. This is simply because for 1 and a half years I was resident in one commune and for 2 years in another. I went to the bank yesterday with the relevant historical document to prove my residence but now too much time has passed and we start again....:faint:

The *Bank* are saying the issues have been caused by the *Owner/Agency* because they have taken too long to get the donation of the house removed and this is why the other issues were not found in time... :faint:

The *Owners* are now saying it is *My* fault because I should have given the document to the bank, the one the bank said I did not need because I gave a marriage certificate proving I had been married to my wife for 3+ years who is an Italian citizen....:faint:

Meanwhile I do not know who to blame and it seems like its a little bit of everyones fault for saying there is plenty of time when in fact there was not... My main concern is the owners will now see if they get a better offer when the compromesso expires and we will have nothing having spent a small fortune on perizia and computo metrico etc..

So I guess my question is if this does go up the swanny.... who do I sue?

Answers on a postcard :faint:

Kenzo


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## NickZ

Better offer? How long was it on the market before your offer? Years? Decades? Tell the owner you want a deduction for the costs. If he finds a better offer move on. You'll find other homes easier than he will find a new buyer


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## KenzoXIV

NickZ said:


> Better offer? How long was it on the market before your offer? Years? Decades? Tell the owner you want a deduction for the costs. If he finds a better offer move on. You'll find other homes easier than he will find a new buyer


This is very true... Maybe I am panicking for no reason.

Kenzo


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## Troz

NickZ said:


> Better offer? How long was it on the market before your offer? Years? Decades? Tell the owner you want a deduction for the costs. If he finds a better offer move on. You'll find other homes easier than he will find a new buyer


Agreed. Time to go in hard. Demand a ridiculous discount and settle for something less.


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## Heinz57

Great thread. Thanks!


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## KenzoXIV

Heinz57 said:


> Great thread. Thanks!


Like I said if it helps one person then thats good news!

Just wish it could have been smoother.

Kenzo


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## ajcamp

Here is a law firm I have been in contact with in Palermo:

Avv. Gioia Arnone
FOUNDING PARTNER
Studio Legale Internazionale Arnone&Sicomo
Piazzetta F. Bagnasco, 31 - 90141 Palermo (PA)
arnonesicomo.com


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## ajcamp

Here's a lawyer I've been in contact with in Palermo: 
Avv. Gioia Arnone
Studio Legale Internazionale Arnone&Sicomo
Piazzetta F. Bagnasco, 31 - 90141 Palermo (PA)
arnonesicomo.com


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