# Any advise on moving to Japan



## AmberW

Im from the states and we do not get a holiday work visa, but i would really love to move to Japan. I am learning Japanese and have gotten ok at it. Unfortunately, I have not had the best of luck, so I have not been able to get a degree. Is there anyway to get a job without one, and if so how.


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## Rube

Not really unless you break the law.


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## The_Animal

Whatever you do, don't go over there with a "sense of entitlement". That really pisses people off over there. 

Japan has the view that it is a homogeneous society. That _Nihon Kokumin_ (Japanese citizens) have first rights of service; that some places will not serve you if you are not Japanese. It smacks of racism, but frankly, because Japanese are more insular, they will not budge for "loss of face". It does not matter how much you try to beat down the door. All you will get is "Shikata ga nai" - so sorry, but it happens. 

If you go there, unless you are looking for a job that caters to foreigners, you will more than likely be passed over by a Japanese citizen. 

Remember, to Japanese, Japan is for the Japanese first and foremost. That unfortunately is the harsh truth of trying to live in Japan. Shikata ga nai, ne?


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## Joppa

AmberW said:


> Im from the states and we do not get a holiday work visa, but i would really love to move to Japan. I am learning Japanese and have gotten ok at it. Unfortunately, I have not had the best of luck, so I have not been able to get a degree. Is there anyway to get a job without one, and if so how.


Easiest in terms of a visa is instructor's visa as English teacher, but you usually need a degree to get a certificate of eligibility for a visa. Alternative is something like 5 years' experience in a professional capacity. 
Or you can be transferred by your employer to their operations in Japan, or with the US military as a civilian worker through Dept of Defense.


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## The_Animal

Joppa said:


> Easiest in terms of a visa is instructor's visa as English teacher, but you usually need a degree to get a certificate of eligibility for a visa. Alternative is something like 5 years' experience in a professional capacity.
> Or you can be transferred by your employer to their operations in Japan, or with the US military as a civilian worker through Dept of Defense.


Joppa, I'm assuming that she doesn't have a current job at the moment that has an affiliate in Japan or she probably would have taken that option. 5 years of professional capacity work is OK, but as i said, she would more than likely be passed over by a Japanese who has a degree and graduated from a reputable technical university in Japan. The Japanese seem to put an unusual emphasis on degree-bearing for most of their higher end salaryman positions. It's not usual to get something of that stature for most foreigners unless they have a degree. The US military will post her as a civilian worker, not to where she wants, but where the need is most pressing at the time and like the uniformed services, it's more likely that she might end up in a country that she doesn't want to be in. The better option is to stay complete the degree and enter the Foreign Service and get posted to where she wants to go.


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## larabell

If someone with a degree were to come to Japan as an English instructor, it's very unlikely they would be passed up by a Japanese native. Most English schools want native speakers, not Japanese academics who studied English as a second language (the exception being universities and some public school systems).

And in good times, there are other jobs for which you're not likely to be passed up by Japanese nationals. It sounds like you might have had a couple of bad experiences along the way but, when companies are actually hiring, there are generally plenty of opportunities for non-Japanese in areas like tech and business. The trouble right now is... these are not good times. Very few companies are hiring at all and the unemployment rate, while still half that of the US, is at an all-time high since the end of WWII (close to 10%, the last I heard). So getting a job of any sort is tough right now. Getting a job teaching English is harder because two of the major English schools have gone bust over the last several years, leaving lots of potential teachers on the job market.

The other issue is a degree. Most working visas require a college degree. Teaching definitely requires a degree. If you had a degree, I'd recommend checking into the JET program -- last I knew, they were still importing native English teachers. If you didn't mind working as a hostess, you likely don't need a degree for that (and you're not likely to be passed over by a native Japanese, either) but I wouldn't recommend going that route since I've heard the working conditions are pretty bad.

And while there are certainly some individuals prejudiced against foreigners, that's not the general case, at least not in big cities like Tokyo, and the picture being painted about Japan being for the Japanese is far bleaker than reality, in my humble opinion.


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## The_Animal

larabell said:


> If someone with a degree were to come to Japan as an English instructor, it's very unlikely they would be passed up by a Japanese native. Most English schools want native speakers, not Japanese academics who studied English as a second language (the exception being universities and some public school systems).
> 
> And in good times, there are other jobs for which you're not likely to be passed up by Japanese nationals. It sounds like you might have had a couple of bad experiences along the way but, when companies are actually hiring, there are generally plenty of opportunities for non-Japanese in areas like tech and business. The trouble right now is... these are not good times. Very few companies are hiring at all and the unemployment rate, while still half that of the US, is at an all-time high since the end of WWII (close to 10%, the last I heard). So getting a job of any sort is tough right now. Getting a job teaching English is harder because two of the major English schools have gone bust over the last several years, leaving lots of potential teachers on the job market.
> 
> The other issue is a degree. Most working visas require a college degree. Teaching definitely requires a degree. If you had a degree, I'd recommend checking into the JET program -- last I knew, they were still importing native English teachers. If you didn't mind working as a hostess, you likely don't need a degree for that (and you're not likely to be passed over by a native Japanese, either) but I wouldn't recommend going that route since I've heard the working conditions are pretty bad.
> 
> And while there are certainly some individuals prejudiced against foreigners, that's not the general case, at least not in big cities like Tokyo, and the picture being painted about Japan being for the Japanese is far bleaker than reality, in my humble opinion.


Frankly, the easiest job to get would be as an English tutor. However as you said, with this economy, the English schools have gone bust. 

The tech companies and business are out unless you have at least a 1st year university command of the Japanese language. Certainly Japanese will look upon foreigners with a less critical eye, because they let certain things like social graces slide, however on the flip side, if you are Asian in face, they will either look at you and ask you where you're from or think that you're some sort of "bakatare-Nihonjin" and that's putting it very bluntly. 

As a Japanese-Canadian, certain markets (such as being an English tutor) are out for me, no matter how many doors I would want to knock on whereas they are wide open to "foreigners with pale skin and look Caucasian". Despite my university command of the English language (frankly better than some native-speakers) and the fact that I have been speaking English from the time I was in elementary school in Canada, there is no way that any Japanese English school will take me. You want to know why? My face is Japanese. That is why I don't bother trying to go the JET route. That is why I told my mother 20 years ago that going over to Japan is a waste of my time because no matter what, I look Japanese, I am of Japanese descent and no Japanese-English school would take someone who looks Japanese to them. My wife would get a job in Japan easier than I would. And I have a Japanese entry on my koseki in Kyoto though I live in Canada courtesy of my father who was born there. You wanna know why? The reason is because she has fair skin, is a brunette and has blue eyes and hails from Louisiana, United States of America. She's Caucasian. So does that mean that I can stamp my feet and say "I can speak and spell better than she can and get my way and try to get an English tutor job?" More than likely not, because that is not the way Japanese society behaves. I say "_Hai...oisogashii tokoro, domo arigato gozaimasu. Yoroshiku onegaii shimasu_"and try my luck elsewhere. In Japan, I am a Japanese first, native English speaker second and that's the way I'm perceived. Regardless of where I was born (Edmonton, Alberta)...and where I learned my English (Elementary and Highschool in Canuckville (slang for Canada)), eh? 

For foreigners the whole situation looks like this: BUT it doesn't matter how long you stay, whether you learn our language, whether you decide to gain Japanese citizenship, you will always be thought of as a foreigner (a learned foreigner perhaps, but a foreigner nonetheless) in Japan. Even us Japanese-Canadians (and by that extension, Japanese-Americans) are considered foreigners. Japan is a patriarchal inheritance structure: always has been, always will be. If you are a gaijin male, you will never gain entrance into Japanese society as an equal (considered Japanese). You have a foreign face, a foreign set of mannerisms and a foreign sense of entitlement that will never be accepted in Japan. There are rules that govern social interaction in Japan and there are social classes. You respect your elders. You do not rock the boat. If you want to vote, you become a Japanese citizen. But do not expect the rules to change for you. And that is where people like David Aldwinckle (I absolutely refuse to call him Arudou Debito) fall into the category of "_mottaibutta bakayaro_". This may look like racism to you, but what it is, simply put, is the impression that foreigners try to come into Japan and remake it to what it should be to Western minds. To do so is officious in Japanese eyes and that is what I am trying to make people understand. You are a visitor coming to a society that has been closed for many centuries and had only been opened up in the latter half of the 19th century during Millard Fillmore's presidency via gunboat diplomacy (the ol' "either open your doors to trade or we'll blow them open" form of diplomacy). Frankly, the Japanese who are in business now don't care about Japanese values and culture, it has been replaced by the run for the almighty buck. The ones who do care are the ones who survived WWII. Those are the ones who are outraged at the lack of propriety and respect for cultural values. I was raised by my father who survived WWII in Japan and my mother who survived the Japanese internment in Canada and both still to this day have imstilled in me a deep desire for retention of our Japanese culture. 

There aren't many traditional Japanese left. And those who are, are under fire from non-traditional families who have catered to the Western culture. There is an old Western saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do..." Plainly put, don't rock the boat. Otherwise you will be always considered as the "ugly gaijin". Just remember, you have NO rights of entitlement in Japan. Japan will always be for the Japanese first. There is no "melting pot" in Japan.

I've seen other people on other forums scoff at making a Japanese "omari-san" run to catch up with them because they were on bikes and he was on foot and he was yelling at them to stop. In this case, you stop, no matter what you think is right in your mind. Because when a law-enforcement officer makes a stop, he is doing so for a perfectly good reason according to Japanese societal rules. He is the one in control so you are the one that has to obey. These are the little minute differences in Japanese society that royally tick Japanese citizens off if they are not followed. Americans come from a society where you challenge everything if it doesn't sound right to you. In Japanese society, you stick your neck out you get hammered down. 

If you come to Japan, do not expect a job to be laid out for you. You have to compete with the rest of the population. Going to Japan is not an easy road. Most places want degrees, especially in business. It's not so simple as to say "here. I can get myself a job and enjoy myself and live out the rest of my life in Japan." You need to be aware of the social graces and the social class-structure of Japanese society in order to fully integrate as an US expat in Japanese society. My apologies if it came off sounding pretentious. Shikata ga nai.


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## Joppa

It's 'omawari-san' BTW for a policeman. Interestingly, the Japanese word for a constable is 'junsa', literally 'patrolman' - 'omawari' is colloquialism for doing the round.


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## Rube

The_Animal said:


> Frankly, the easiest job to get would be as an English tutor. However as you said, with this economy, the English schools have gone bust.
> 
> The tech companies and business are out unless you have at least a 1st year university command of the Japanese language. Certainly Japanese will look upon foreigners with a less critical eye, because they let certain things like social graces slide, however on the flip side, if you are Asian in face, they will either look at you and ask you where you're from or think that you're some sort of "bakatare-Nihonjin" and that's putting it very bluntly.
> 
> As a Japanese-Canadian, certain markets (such as being an English tutor) are out for me, no matter how many doors I would want to knock on whereas they are wide open to "foreigners with pale skin and look Caucasian". Despite my university command of the English language (frankly better than some native-speakers) and the fact that I have been speaking English from the time I was in elementary school in Canada, there is no way that any Japanese English school will take me. You want to know why? My face is Japanese. That is why I don't bother trying to go the JET route. That is why I told my mother 20 years ago that going over to Japan is a waste of my time because no matter what, I look Japanese, I am of Japanese descent and no Japanese-English school would take someone who looks Japanese to them. My wife would get a job in Japan easier than I would. And I have a Japanese entry on my koseki in Kyoto though I live in Canada courtesy of my father who was born there. You wanna know why? The reason is because she has fair skin, is a brunette and has blue eyes and hails from Louisiana, United States of America. She's Caucasian. So does that mean that I can stamp my feet and say "I can speak and spell better than she can and get my way and try to get an English tutor job?" More than likely not, because that is not the way Japanese society behaves. I say "_Hai...oisogashii tokoro, domo arigato gozaimasu. Yoroshiku onegaii shimasu_"and try my luck elsewhere. In Japan, I am a Japanese first, native English speaker second and that's the way I'm perceived. Regardless of where I was born (Edmonton, Alberta)...and where I learned my English (Elementary and Highschool in Canuckville (slang for Canada)), eh?
> 
> For foreigners the whole situation looks like this: BUT it doesn't matter how long you stay, whether you learn our language, whether you decide to gain Japanese citizenship, you will always be thought of as a foreigner (a learned foreigner perhaps, but a foreigner nonetheless) in Japan. Even us Japanese-Canadians (and by that extension, Japanese-Americans) are considered foreigners. Japan is a patriarchal inheritance structure: always has been, always will be. If you are a gaijin male, you will never gain entrance into Japanese society as an equal (considered Japanese). You have a foreign face, a foreign set of mannerisms and a foreign sense of entitlement that will never be accepted in Japan. There are rules that govern social interaction in Japan and there are social classes. You respect your elders. You do not rock the boat. If you want to vote, you become a Japanese citizen. But do not expect the rules to change for you. And that is where people like David Aldwinckle (I absolutely refuse to call him Arudou Debito) fall into the category of "_mottaibutta bakayaro_". This may look like racism to you, but what it is, simply put, is the impression that foreigners try to come into Japan and remake it to what it should be to Western minds. To do so is officious in Japanese eyes and that is what I am trying to make people understand. You are a visitor coming to a society that has been closed for many centuries and had only been opened up in the latter half of the 19th century during Millard Fillmore's presidency via gunboat diplomacy (the ol' "either open your doors to trade or we'll blow them open" form of diplomacy). Frankly, the Japanese who are in business now don't care about Japanese values and culture, it has been replaced by the run for the almighty buck. The ones who do care are the ones who survived WWII. Those are the ones who are outraged at the lack of propriety and respect for cultural values. I was raised by my father who survived WWII in Japan and my mother who survived the Japanese internment in Canada and both still to this day have imstilled in me a deep desire for retention of our Japanese culture.
> 
> There aren't many traditional Japanese left. And those who are, are under fire from non-traditional families who have catered to the Western culture. There is an old Western saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do..." Plainly put, don't rock the boat. Otherwise you will be always considered as the "ugly gaijin". Just remember, you have NO rights of entitlement in Japan. Japan will always be for the Japanese first. There is no "melting pot" in Japan.
> 
> I've seen other people on other forums scoff at making a Japanese "omari-san" run to catch up with them because they were on bikes and he was on foot and he was yelling at them to stop. In this case, you stop, no matter what you think is right in your mind. Because when a law-enforcement officer makes a stop, he is doing so for a perfectly good reason according to Japanese societal rules. He is the one in control so you are the one that has to obey. These are the little minute differences in Japanese society that royally tick Japanese citizens off if they are not followed. Americans come from a society where you challenge everything if it doesn't sound right to you. In Japanese society, you stick your neck out you get hammered down.
> 
> If you come to Japan, do not expect a job to be laid out for you. You have to compete with the rest of the population. Going to Japan is not an easy road. Most places want degrees, especially in business. It's not so simple as to say "here. I can get myself a job and enjoy myself and live out the rest of my life in Japan." You need to be aware of the social graces and the social class-structure of Japanese society in order to fully integrate as an US expat in Japanese society. My apologies if it came off sounding pretentious. Shikata ga nai.


Dude the last thing you sound is pretentious, just sound like somebody who hasn't spent much time here. Sure looking Asian isn't a plus if one wants to get a job teaching English, but I know plenty of Asian people teaching English, one who even started his own English school and was very successful at it way out in Niigata, so not nearly as accepting as Tokyo, and he was Chinese/Canadian. Some people do, and some people cry.


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## Rube

Amber if you really want to come to Japan just save as much as you can and come and look for under the counter work and stay as long as you can. Worst case you run out of money and go home with a great experience. I know plenty of gaijins who have lived here for years like that, they travel to places like Thailand to be able to renew their travel visa and come back. A lot of times they create or fall into chances. Just be prepared to do jobs like bar tend and teach privately by working the net and so on. 

Places like Tokyo are very friendly to gaijins and gaijins aren't expected to act like Japanese, we're treated with kid gloves. Big network of gajins who are also willing to help each other out if you are good at networking.


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## larabell

The_Animal said:


> The tech companies and business are out unless you have at least a 1st year university command of the Japanese language.


That's not entirely true. Many years ago I managed to land a job with only basic Japanese skills and I know a guy who came here from the UK on a working holiday visa and landed a programming job with almost no Japanese at all. It took him about three months but he had enough savings to last that long and, in the end, it paid off. I also know of at least one company that does server installations and they actually prefer English speakers because most of the contact they have with real humans is with the home office IT guys overseas.

It's probably harder to find a job if you don't have Japanese under your belt but it's certainly not impossible. Like any other situation, you have to provide something the company needs.

For example, many distributors and finance companies do business with companies from Western countries and they might need someone to co-ordinate in English. In high-tech, many Engineers speak at least a little English so day-to-day communication isn't always as important as whatever other skills you bring to the table. It's a matter of getting out there and making connections.


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## pasturesnew

*options*

If no degree, 10 years work related experience in the field that you intend on working in will get you your 3 year rolling work Visa, have to provide evidence, ie letters / certificates from previous Employers to verify, else marry a J citizen and your in regardless on a Spouse Visa....


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## Guest

AmberW said:


> Im from the states and we do not get a holiday work visa, but i would really love to move to Japan. I am learning Japanese and have gotten ok at it. Unfortunately, I have not had the best of luck, so I have not been able to get a degree. Is there anyway to get a job without one, and if so how.


try the websites gajinpot.com and daijob.com. They list all kinds of jobs for foreigners. For teaching English you have to have a Bachelors. How are you learning Japanese? Be aware that learning from Japanese anime is not good language. I encourage you in your studies. It's not an easy language to learn. I just moved here to Tokyo last October and I still have a long ways to go yet with learning the ropes and the language.


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