# What is Junta de Andalucia?



## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Could someone please explain what Junta de Andalucía is? I've been on their website this morning, and it seems they do everything, yet you have to go to special government sites for anything you really want to do. So I'm confused as to who they are. Here is their website: Junta de Andalucía

In the case that someone can help me out, thank you.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

AllHeart said:


> Could someone please explain what Junta de Andalucía is? I've been on their website this morning, and it seems they do everything, yet you have to go to special government sites for anything you really want to do. So I'm confused as to who they are. Here is their website: Junta de Andalucía
> 
> In the case that someone can help me out, thank you.


They are the government of Andalucia.


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## stevelin (Apr 25, 2009)

Spain is divided into regional governments. Similar to the Walsh assemble and the Scottish government. The one for Andalusia is called the Junta de Andalusia


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Thank you for your answers. So are they like the umbrella government organisation of all government organisations in Andalucía? So they don't do one thing in particular?


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Never mind my last question as to what they do. I think I figured it out. It's under the tab "Servicios y tramites." Again, thank you!


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

The JdA is a regional government with its own elected parliament, president, ministers and administration. It raises its own taxes and makes its own laws on issues like education, health and social care, within the framework of the national legislation.

At the moment there is a conflict between the left-of-centre Junta de Andalucia and the right-of-centre national government. The Junta refuses to make further cuts to services, or implement certain laws it doesn't agree with, so Madrid is cutting its funding.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> The JdA is a regional government with its own elected parliament, president, ministers and administration. It raises its own taxes and makes its own laws on issues like education, health and social care, within the framework of the national legislation.
> 
> At the moment there is a conflict between the left-of-centre Junta de Andalucia and the right-of-centre national government. The Junta refuses to make further cuts to services, or implement certain laws it doesn't agree with, so Madrid is cutting its funding.


Alcalaina, thanks for explaining all of that. I didn't know any of that. So without funding, does that mean JdA will be shutting down?


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> The JdA is a regional government with its own elected parliament, president, ministers and administration. It raises its own taxes and makes its own laws on issues like education, health and social care, within the framework of the national legislation.
> 
> At the moment there is a conflict between the left-of-centre Junta de Andalucia and the right-of-centre national government. The Junta refuses to make further cuts to services, or implement certain laws it doesn't agree with, so Madrid is cutting its funding.


Think of the Junta as Ontario's Provincial Government. 
They won't shut down, just like NB wouldn't shut down if they didn't get along with PM Harper.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> Alcalaina, thanks for explaining all of that. I didn't know any of that. So without funding, does that mean JdA will be shutting down?


No - it still gets central funding, but less than it needs to maintain services at current levels. The Junta is also angry that Andalucia is getting less than its fair share of the job creation money that the European Union has given to Spain.

The President of Andalucia is Susana Díaz. She is quite a feisty character and you will often see her on TV scaring the wits out of older male politicians.


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## country boy (Mar 10, 2010)

A cynical ( but truthful) answer to the original question might be: A totally corrupt and magnificently incompetent example of Government in Spain...Bless!


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

And let's not forget that the junta de Andalucia is being investigated for a multi-million euro fraud ("el caso de los EREs") whereby public money that should have been targeted for things like job creation was apparently redirected into the pockets of politicians and their associates (in this case the PSOE) by mechanisms such as falsely including them in early retirement schemes. There is also a case being made that the main union (the UGT) subverted millions of public money into false training courses.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Chopera said:


> And let's not forget that the junta de Andalucia is being investigated for a multi-million euro fraud ("el caso de los EREs") whereby public money that should have been targeted for things like job creation was apparently redirected into the pockets of politicians and their associates (in this case the PSOE) by mechanisms such as falsely including them in early retirement schemes. There is also a case being made that the main union (the UGT) subverted millions of public money into false training courses.


All true. But Díaz came in last year declaring zero tolerance on corruption and got rid of the "old guard" who had been lining their pockets with public money. I think we have to give her a chance to prove herself.

Nearly all the regions have their corruption scandals. In Valencia, they actually re-elected Fabra as president while he was under investigation for serious fraud (he was later sentenced to four years in jail). The former president of the Balearic Islands, Jaume Matas, is serving six years for fraud, and the former Catalan leader Jordi Pujol is up to his neck in a tax evasion scandal.

I take comfort from the fact that all these court cases mean the Spanish people have finally woken up to what was going on and are demanding justice. Two steps forward, one step back - but we're getting there.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Alcalaina said:


> I take comfort from the fact that all these court cases mean the Spanish people have finally woken up to what was going on and are demanding justice. Two steps forward, one step back - but we're getting there.


"Spanish people" ??
I think Señor Gomez Y Señora Gonzalez woke up to corruption literally many years ago. It's the courts and the justice system that have been slow to react. Putting it another way each government local and national has been too scared to really do anything as it would stir up too much trouble in their own camp


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> All true. But Díaz came in last year declaring zero tolerance on corruption and got rid of the "old guard" who had been lining their pockets with public money. I think we have to give her a chance to prove herself.
> 
> Nearly all the regions have their corruption scandals. In Valencia, they actually re-elected Fabra as president while he was under investigation for serious fraud (he was later sentenced to four years in jail). The former president of the Balearic Islands, Jaume Matas, is serving six years for fraud, and the former Catalan leader Jordi Pujol is up to his neck in a tax evasion scandal.
> 
> I take comfort from the fact that all these court cases mean the Spanish people have finally woken up to what was going on and are demanding justice. Two steps forward, one step back - but we're getting there.


I'm giving her a chance, but I can also understand why the central government is reluctant to pass more money their way (although I suspect it's more of a case of the EU leaning on the central government).

As for Valencia, I have no idea what you're talking about, how could anybody doubt the integrity of these people?


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> "Spanish people" ??
> I think Señor Gomez Y Señora Gonzalez woke up to corruption literally many years ago. It's the courts and the justice system that have been slow to react. Putting it another way each government local and national has been too scared to really do anything as it would stir up too much trouble in their own camp


And Hacienda as well. Seems like they knew about the "tarjetas B" used by Caja Madrid (and subsequently Bankia) as far back as 2007, but did nothing to dismantle the system:

Caja Madrid: Hacienda supo hasta 2007 de gastos de tarjetas pero no investigó | España | EL PAÃ�S

Everybody knows, but nobody does anything.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Chopera said:


> And Hacienda as well. Seems like they knew about the "tarjetas B" used by Caja Madrid (and subsequently Bankia) as far back as 2007, but did nothing to dismantle the system:
> 
> Caja Madrid: Hacienda supo hasta 2007 de gastos de tarjetas pero no investigó | España | EL PAÃ�S
> 
> Everybody knows, but nobody does anything.


Many times (in the past anyway) local people knew that something was being constructed in an area classified as rural and would even lodge a formal complaint, sometimes repeatedly and nothing was done about it.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Chopera said:


> I'm giving her a chance, but I can also understand why the central government is reluctant to pass more money their way (although I suspect it's more of a case of the EU leaning on the central government).
> /QUOTE]
> 
> More a case of right versus left, methinks.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Thanks so much for all this useful information. What government (or any organisation) is free of corruption? Misappropriated funds are commonplace - including in Canada, believe it or not!  I'm happy to hear Spain doesn't turn a blind eye to this all the time.

Elenextu, thanks for using the analogy of the Junta de Andalucía as Canadian provincial governments. I totally get that.

I wish I could understand Spanish well enough to understand the political debates. I see Spaniards as being extremely straightforward therefore packing quite a punch in what they say. I can't begin to imagine what the Spanish politicians say!!!  Do you guys see a difference in Spanish politicians compared to your country of origin? Or are they all the same to you?


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Pesky Wesky said:


> "Spanish people" ??
> I think Señor Gomez Y Señora Gonzalez woke up to corruption literally many years ago. It's the courts and the justice system that have been slow to react. Putting it another way each government local and national has been too scared to really do anything as it would stir up too much trouble in their own camp


Yes you're right, but maybe it was easier to turn a blind eye while everything was hunky dory during the boom years.

I think two other factors have brought things to a head. Firstly the massive rise in the use of social media means Sr Gomez and Sra García (and especially their children) are much better informed and and it's easier to organise protest. 

Secondly the anger caused by the austerity cuts and unemployment, which hit them hard while the scum at the top continued to float unscathed.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> I wish I could understand Spanish well enough to understand the political debates. I see Spaniards as being extremely straightforward therefore packing quite a punch in what they say. I can't begin to imagine what the Spanish politicians say!!!  Do you guys see a difference in Spanish politicians compared to your country of origin? Or are they all the same to you?


Yes, I noticed when I first moved here (2008) that politicians seemed to give much more direct answers than in the UK. But I think this has changed in the last three or four years and they are now much more "stage-managed". For example, the PP vice-president Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría is always selected to be the government spokesperson because she is far more "media-friendly" than President Rajoy.

Anyone else reminded of Miss Piggy from the Muppets?


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

She's really pretty. Yes, I can see a resemblance with Miss Piggy. I also see a resemblance with Hermoine from Harry Potter (Emma Watson).


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Pesky Wesky said:


> "Spanish people" ??
> I think Señor Gomez Y Señora Gonzalez woke up to corruption literally many years ago. It's the courts and the justice system that have been slow to react. Putting it another way each government local and national has been too scared to really do anything as it would stir up too much trouble in their own camp


In 2008, David Valadez, PSOE Concejal in Estepona, went to the police with a dossier of detailed allegations against the then PSOE Alcalde, Barrientos. The case, named Astapa, has to date over 110 imputados. Barrientos sat in prison for a few weeks, had a nervous breakdown and was released on bail. He is often seen in local bars and shops, cheerful, gladhanding as was his custom. There is as yet no date set for the trial.
The charges are the usual...fraud, money-laundering, cash for building permits..
David went on to become Alcalde. He is a decent, honest man. He had to have an armed bodyguard as he had offended important local people. This I saw with my own eyes when the ADANA Board invited him to lunch one day.

In 2011 PP took control of Estepona. Some of the new Alcalde's chums are among the imputados. One has been given back his old job in the Treasurer's Department....
At a recent Pleno of the Ayto., the PP Alcalde and David had a heated disagreement which the Alcalde terminated by shouting 'Por chivato!' at David. This disgraceful outburst made national news. It says everything you need to know about our Alcalde.

The saying goes that 'Fish rots from the head down'. That seems very true of Spain. Very many people have got their own little 'fiddles' on the side..not paying IVA, working on the black....after all, they are defrauding hundreds at the most, not millions of euros.
As the Communist Alcaldesa of Manilva said when cheerfully confessing to giving jobs to half of her extended family: 'Everybody does it. I'm just open about it'.

Once that kind of thing gets a hold of society, it's very hard if not impossible to stamp out. I saw the same thing, worse even, in the Czech Republic where politics stinks even more than in Spain. Taking a 'gift' to a civil servant or doctor even was de rigeur.

It seems to be a feature of formerly oppressed countries, where civil society never had the opportunity to flourish. It could take years to create a culture of trust and honesty.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

Alcalaina said:


> Anyone else reminded of Miss Piggy from the Muppets?


At the risk of offending the feminists - she is a darned sight better looking than Rajoy with his scruffy unkempt face fungus he is a good take off of 'Animal' visually. While on the subject, even Miss Piggy is better looking that Rajoy and I'd trust *her* a lot farther than him.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> Thanks so much for all this useful information. What government (or any organisation) is free of corruption? Misappropriated funds are commonplace - including in Canada, believe it or not!  I'm happy to hear Spain doesn't turn a blind eye to this all the time.
> 
> Elenextu, thanks for using the analogy of the Junta de Andalucía as Canadian provincial governments. I totally get that.
> 
> I wish I could understand Spanish well enough to understand the political debates. I see Spaniards as being extremely straightforward therefore packing quite a punch in what they say. I can't begin to imagine what the Spanish politicians say!!!  Do you guys see a difference in Spanish politicians compared to your country of origin? Or are they all the same to you?


Spanish politicians are, I think, more openly and blatantly corrupt but then the likes of Camoron and most of the other UK politicians who had the benefit of public school education where they taught that type of subject -nepotism, bribery, cheating, etc.


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## el romeral (May 8, 2012)

country boy said:


> A cynical ( but truthful) answer to the original question might be: A totally corrupt and magnificently incompetent example of Government in Spain...Bless!


Spot on!


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

mrypg9 said:


> ...
> 
> It seems to be a feature of formerly oppressed countries, where civil society never had the opportunity to flourish. It could take years to create a culture of trust and honesty.


The problem is a lack of strong, independent institutions. Dictatorships tend not to have them (almost by definition) and it takes time to implement them when the dictator is removed. Strong institutions hold public bodies to account, help uphold the law, and protect the vulnerable. It's also noticeable that the EU is more popular in countries with weak institutions because the population sees it as a way of introducing stronger institutions than what they currently have, whereas countries with strong, established institutions tend to oppose the EU as it sees it as a threat to them.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> Spanish politicians are, I think, more openly and blatantly corrupt but then the likes of Camoron and most of the other UK politicians who had the benefit of public school education where they taught that type of subject -nepotism, bribery, cheating, etc.


After reading about the almost unbelievable misuse ofcredit cards by members of the Board of Caja Madrid I could understand enraged customers of this bank, bailed out by the taxpayer, going to their homes, dragging them out, throwing them on tumbrils, guillotining them in Puerta Sol and exhibiting theirheads on pikes.

But we are too civilised for that sort of thing. Some vices however are still with us: greed, stupidity, selfishness....
What kind of humans can behave like that and look at themselves in their bathroom mirrors?


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> After reading about the almost unbelievable misuse of credit cards by members of the Board of Caja Madrid I could understand enraged customers of this bank, bailed out by the taxpayer, going to their homes, dragging them out, throwing them on tumbrils, guillotining them in Puerta Sol and exhibiting their heads on pikes.
> 
> But we are too civilised for that sort of thing.


Such a pity - it would have made better television on what few channels there are left after the decimation carried by those who didn't get a cut of the previous brown-envelopes. 





mrypg9 said:


> Some vices however are still with us: greed, stupidity, selfishness.... What kind of humans can behave like that and look at themselves in their bathroom mirrors?


They are trained to that sort of blindness by the public schools they attended (see earlier post)!


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

El Pais has published the credit card statements from each one of the eighty- six thieves which include leading members of UGT and CCOO as well as PP and PSOE appointments.
Their misappropriation of public money is far far worse than the UK MPs expenses scandal, imo.
And this at a time when millions were without work and scrabbling to find money to put food on the family table.
I thought I was beyond being shocked by this kind of scandal but the bare- faced nerve of it is just mind- blowing.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> They are trained to that sort of blindness by the public schools they attended (see earlier post)!


Not so, Baldy. Some of them are 'ordinary' people who just couldn't resist temptation.
Ordinary Spanish 'socialists' and trade unionists.
Sickening. What hope is there if those supposedly dedicated to helping the people rob the people?

*******s coños ****s thieves!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> El Pais has published the credit card statements former each one of the eighty- six thieves which include leading members of UGT and CCOO as well as PP and PSOE appointments.
> Their misappropriation of public money isfarfar worse than the UK MPs expenses scandal, imo.
> And this at a time when millions were without work and scrabbling to find money to put food on the family table.
> I thought I was beyond being shocked by this kind of scandal but the bare- faced nerve of it is just mind- blowing.


I was just about to post a link to that article, so I'll do it anyway:-



Caso Tarjetas Casa Madrid: El despilfarro y el lujo con las tarjetas opacas de Caja Madrid, al detalle | España | EL PAÃ�S

It really is disgusting. I have difficulty understanding why people aren't taking to the streets, surely there must come a time when the anger will just boil over. I suppose when the lying and stealing is going on so comprehensively across the whole political spectrum, though, identifying "the enemy" is well nigh impossible.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Every criminal who has been imprisoned for robbing a branch of Caja Madrid or Bankia should be released immediately with full pardon and handsome compensation.
There must be tens of thousands of low waged customers and small businesspeople who suffered because of the incompetent management of this bank..and all the while these lowlifes were buying expensive jewelry, staying in fancy hotels, filling the tanks of their cars at the people's expense..
After reading two excellent books about the fiasco of RBS in the UK I could understand the urge to take a brick and smash the window of the nearest RBS branch.
Futile, pointless....but when people feel so impotent, understandable.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

Lynn R said:


> I
> 
> It really is disgusting. I have difficulty understanding why people aren't taking to the streets, surely there must come a time when the anger will just boil over. I suppose when the lying and stealing is going on so comprehensively across the whole political spectrum, though, identifying "the enemy" is well nigh impossible.


People ARE taking to the streets, in large numbers! That's why there has been a law passed recently, the Ley de Seguridad Ciudadana, greatly limiting the constutitonal right to protest.


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

When one thinks back to the early 30s in Spain, this was similar to the incentives for a Republic where the haves were taking so much from the have-nots that there was little or nothing for the latter and their families to live on.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> When one thinks back to the early 30s in Spain, this was similar to the incentives for a Republic where the haves were taking so much from the have-nots that there was little or nothing for the latter and their families to live on.


This Caja Madrid theft is a true example of what we should call the 'trickle up' phenomenum. It's where wealth from the bottom permeates by some obscure modification of the law of gravity to the top.


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## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

These people should be examined by psychologists to see what makes them tick. There seems to be a type of person unable to resist the temptation to put their hand in the till when they have the opportunity.
I've said before that I never came across a bent politician in all my active political life and that's the truth. But Sandra and I were recalling other instances of dishonesty with public money. In our town there were three huge sprawling council estates, each with a Community Centre with its Social Club run by an elected Committee of estate residents. Every one was plagued by pilfering and fraud. Our Town Labour Party had a Labour Club with a bar ....the Steward really was a Bar Steward...he stole from the till. Sandra caught him red-handed one night when she did an unannounced till check. Two Party members stole from the weekly tote subs they collected.
These weren't poor people, just weak people. We didn't involve the police, their shame was punishment enough.
I firmly believe most people are honest. There are two reasons why I wouldn't steal: one, I'd be afraid of being caught but two, more powerful, is that it's wrong, vulgar, disgusting.

So what is it that drives so many 'public servants' to steal from the people they started out wanting to fight for? Wealth or poverty aren't relevant factors: these Caja Madrid people received large salaries for their 'work'.

This really needs investigating by mental health experts. Is it a genetic defect?????


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> This really needs investigating by mental health experts. Is it a genetic defect?????


Given that so many of the 'superior (in their minds)'classes who seem to be numerous among the offenders are inter-related, you could well have a point, in which case get it sharpened and "stick it up 'em!", they don't like that Mr Mainwaring!


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

mrypg9 said:


> These people should be examined by psychologists to see what makes them tick. There seems to be a type of person unable to resist the temptation to put their hand in the till when they have the opportunity.
> I've said before that I never came across a bent politician in all my active political life and that's the truth. But Sandra and I were recalling other instances of dishonesty with public money. In our town there were three huge sprawling council estates, each with a Community Centre with its Social Club run by an elected Committee of estate residents. Every one was plagued by pilfering and fraud. Our Town Labour Party had a Labour Club with a bar ....the Steward really was a Bar Steward...he stole from the till. Sandra caught him red-handed one night when she did an unannounced till check. Two Party members stole from the weekly tote subs they collected.
> These weren't poor people, just weak people. We didn't involve the police, their shame was punishment enough.
> I firmly believe most people are honest. There are two reasons why I wouldn't steal: one, I'd be afraid of being caught but two, more powerful, is that it's wrong, vulgar, disgusting.
> ...


What I find so strange is that the "shame" factor has all but disappeared. "Greed is good" is the preferred value system these days, and anybody who insists on being honest, paying all their taxes, not falsely inflating their insurance claims or expenses, is regarded as either being rather simple minded and naive, or slated for being self-righteous. I'd like to think most people are honest, but I've been shocked before when people I've always regarded as such have said, for example, when I was putting in an insurance claim after a burglary "oh, you'll have claimed for the Rolex and the jewellery, won't you" (nod nod, wink wink) - and they weren't joking, either. When challenged, "well, everybody does it, don't they" is invariably the response.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> What I find so strange is that the "shame" factor has all but disappeared. "Greed is good" is the preferred value system these days, and anybody who insists on being honest, paying all their taxes, not falsely inflating their insurance claims or expenses, is regarded as either being rather simple minded and naive, or slated for being self-righteous. I'd like to think most people are honest, but I've been shocked before when people I've always regarded as such have said, for example, when I was putting in an insurance claim after a burglary "oh, you'll have claimed for the Rolex and the jewellery, won't you" (nod nod, wink wink) - and they weren't joking, either. When challenged, "well, everybody does it, don't they" is invariably the response.


Lynn, this is such a poignant commentary on how I see the world today. As a teenager, my sister used to call me Little Miss Goodie Two Shoes. Now I get self-righteous a lot. Sometimes doing the right thing is perceived as me seeing myself as superior. Also I get the word you use - naïve - and unrealistically optimistic It's all upside down to me when an individual is criticised for believing in behaving within a framework that makes a whole lot of sense for herself/himself and others. I always think of the expression, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. 

Politicians aren't the only ones misbehaving, but they can be easily criticised because they're in the public eye for doing the same things nonpoliticians do. I simply don't like the world anymore. I hang onto the good weather and culture in Spain, but that's about it. I hang onto to a teensy bit of hope that people will wake up to how wrong things have become. There are many organisations that I belong to that keep me breathing in this toppled world. One such organisation is called "Playing for Change." Here's is their website: Playing For Change

Here's one of my favourite songs by them:


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## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

AllHeart said:


> Politicians aren't the only ones misbehaving, but they can be easily criticised because they're in the public eye for doing the same things nonpoliticians do.


The big difference is that the politicians, we are discussing, have been elected to do a job (as representatives of those who elected them) which they are failing to do, they have also been elected on trust, they are betraying that trust.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

baldilocks said:


> The big difference is that the politicians, we are discussing, have been elected to do a job (as representatives of those who elected them) which they are failing to do, they have also been elected on trust, they are betraying that trust.


Baldilocks, I honestly don't see a difference, just because a poll put a person into the position of a politician. People can be 'elected' in many ways, either self-elected or elected by others. Their trust can be and is typically betrayed. Perhaps you don't share my view, but this is how I see it when I think of other elected people who betray trust - parents, friends, people doing their nonpolitician jobs (lawyers, doctors, plumbers, electricians, secretaries - any job), citizens breaking laws or twisting laws to their benefit (taxpayers, shoplifting, traffic violations), and so on and so on. 

In law, there is a term called 'breech of duty,' and to me we all have a duty as citizens of this world to behave. I believe everyone knows the right thing to do, but they're just not doing it. In law, there is another term called 'breech of trust,' and again I think all citizens have trust put on them to do the right thing, otherwise it just all falls apart. I don't mean absolutely everyone, but enough of the majority is now messing up so that the result is the world has gone to hell in a hand basket.

There is this saying that I've heard, "Dance as if no one is watching." With this, I think we should "Act as if no one is watching." In other words, our own conscience and consciousness will lead almost everyone to behave and to prove themselves trustworthy.


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## Alcalaina (Aug 6, 2010)

“Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance like nobody's watching.” A quote attributed to Mark Twain or Satchel Paige the baseball player, no-one seems quite sure. There are many variations and songs based on it.

But whoever came up with it, the message is simple and good: be true to yourself and don't hold back because of what other people might think.


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Alcalaina said:


> “Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance like nobody's watching.” A quote attributed to Mark Twain or Satchel Paige the baseball player, no-one seems quite sure. There are many variations and songs based on it.
> 
> But whoever came up with it, the message is simple and good: be true to yourself and don't hold back because of what other people might think.


 Yes, that's the quote I'm referring to.

What I mean by saying act as if nobody's watching is in line with that quote. So a good example is using Lynn's insurance situation about claiming the Rolex. If Lynn had listened to other people, she may have claimed the Rolex. But Lynn listened to herself and did not claim the Rolex. That example she used where people say, everybody's doing it, is a cop-out to excuse your own bad behaviour. 

I remember something I always heard as a kid when I would misbehave and say, well, everybody's doing it. Adults would respond with, "Well, if everyone was jumping off a cliff, would you jump off the cliff too?"


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## Lynn R (Feb 21, 2014)

AllHeart said:


> I remember something I always heard as a kid when I would misbehave and say, well, everybody's doing it. Adults would respond with, "Well, if everyone was jumping off a cliff, would you jump off the cliff too?"


I can't tell you how many times I heard my mother say that - usually when I wanted to do something or go somewhere I wasn't allowed to, but tried to persuade her by saying "but it's not fair, so and so's going". That's exactly what she'd say "if so and so jumped off a cliff, would you do it too'". 

Your quote is a good motto for us to live by, as well as "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". If we stuck to those basic principles, we wouldn't go far wrong.

So many people, whether in the public eye or not, don't seem to concern themselves as to whether what they're doing is legally or morally right, only about whether they get found out or not. If they do get found out and come over all faux repentant, you can bet they're sorry they were found out, not sorry they did it.

The older I get, the more I can see myself becoming the classic recluse (only without the cats).


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## AllHeart (Nov 22, 2013)

Lynn R said:


> I can't tell you how many times I heard my mother say that - usually when I wanted to do something or go somewhere I wasn't allowed to, but tried to persuade her by saying "but it's not fair, so and so's going". That's exactly what she'd say "if so and so jumped off a cliff, would you do it too'".
> 
> Your quote is a good motto for us to live by, as well as "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". If we stuck to those basic principles, we wouldn't go far wrong.
> 
> ...


That's too funny that you're all too familiar with that cliff saying! That's exactly how it was used for me too. The idea is that in the end you decide who you listen to. So there is no "well, everbody's doing it" as an excuse. 

I can't imagine you as a recluse. You seem way too social for that. That's my problem - I like socialising too much. I surround myself with somewhat like-minded people (including people who like discussions/debates).

Yes, getting caught seems to be a deterrent to some, but I've found many like that impending doom and excitement to think about getting caught. Then the game is on to lie some more to get out of the initial lie. I find rules are complicated enough without having to twist the rules. Sticking to how it's supposed to be done frees my mind and my time for other things.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you... Last year, I came across a really cool saying that I think is even better than that. The idea is that it's not about making a world according to what you want, and to look beyond yourself. So this is the saying: _"Do unto others as you would have others do unto others."_ I got this from a very heavy article, but here it is in case you or anyone else wants to read more about this idea:

http://www.stthomas.edu/cathstudies/cst/leaderdevel/TOI/TOIpdf2/Vaillfinalwebformatt.pdf


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