# 183-day rule - Counted when one lands in Spain or legally registered?



## kimuyen (Aug 8, 2013)

We are planning the timing of our move to Spain next year and despite our research, we are still puzzled about how 183 days are counted (we know that they are cumulative and do not have to be continuous).

Are they counted when we land in Spain? Or are they counted when we get an NIE or recidencia, whichever comes first? This could make a big difference as whether we become tax residents or not in the calendar year.

The second question is, if we travel back to the US and Canada to visit family in December, then that time would not be counted toward the 183 days, correct? What would be considered sufficient proof? Airline tickets?

Many thanks!


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

kimuyen said:


> We are planning the timing of our move to Spain next year and despite our research, we are still puzzled about how 183 days are counted (we know that they are cumulative and do not have to be continuous).
> 
> Are they counted when we land in Spain? Or are they counted when we get an NIE or recidencia, whichever comes first? This could make a big difference as whether we become tax residents or not in the calendar year.
> 
> ...


Legally,The day after you arrive the clock would start as days on which you travel do not count.
Travelling out of the country , the time would not count including the days leaving/entering.
Yes the tickets would be sufficient & boarding passes to show that you actually got on ! Call me paranoid.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

kimuyen said:


> Are they counted when we land in Spain?


Yes!



kimuyen said:


> The second question is, if we travel back to the US and Canada to visit family in December, then that time would not be counted toward the 183 days, correct?


Yes!



kimuyen said:


> What would be considered sufficient proof? Airline tickets?


Yes!

:cheer2:


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## kimuyen (Aug 8, 2013)

gus-lopez said:


> Legally,The day after you arrive the clock would start as days on which you travel do not count.
> Travelling out of the country , the time would not count including the days leaving/entering.
> Yes the tickets would be sufficient & boarding passes to show that you actually got on ! Call me paranoid.


No, you are not paranoid at all (judging by our standards  Reading enough these "rules of thump" but not exactly law or standard procedures, we would rather be paranoid too. 

A follow up question, if you don't mind... If we get an NIE before we move there so we can rent a place before hand, does it count from the date we get the NIE? This would have a disastrous effect on our tax situation if it does.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

kimuyen said:


> ...If we get an NIE before we move there so we can rent a place before hand, does it count from the date we get the NIE?


No!

I have an NIE (everyone has who buys property there) but I don't live there for more than 183 days a year and I'm not a fiscal tax resident in Spain either.


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## thrax (Nov 13, 2008)

You do not need an NIE to rent a property. Obtaining one before you arrive is nearly impossible and not worth the effort...


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## kimuyen (Aug 8, 2013)

thrax said:


> You do not need an NIE to rent a property. Obtaining one before you arrive is nearly impossible and not worth the effort...


I thought an NIE is needed for any financial transaction in Spain including renting and setting up utilities? And even buying a SIM card?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

kimuyen said:


> I thought an NIE is needed for any financial transaction in Spain including renting and setting up utilities? And even buying a SIM card?


setting up utilities yes

but the majority of landlords want photo ID - & a NIE doesn't carry a photo, so for foreigners they want a passport

you can buy a PAYG SIM with your passport as ID, too

At least, a Latvian girl we had staying with us earlier this year did - she was only here for 3 months, was 15 years old, & was never going to need a NIE. The phone shop asked for ID & she showed her passport


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

kimuyen said:


> I thought an NIE is needed for any financial transaction in Spain including renting and setting up utilities? And even buying a SIM card?


A NIE is required for financial transactions and paying the necessary tax on them to the Spanish Hacienda. It's a tax number essentially. If you're renting a property you're not paying tax, if you're setting up utilities, you're not paying tax, if you're buying a SIM card, you're not paying tax.


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## kimuyen (Aug 8, 2013)

Thanks, xabiachica and zenkarma, for clarifying it. It is good to hear that landlords accept passports to rent out a place. We are still a bit unsure as another source stated that since utilities are paid automatically from a bank and an NIE is needed to enter into a contract with utilities companies. 

"In Spain you cannot legally buy property, a house, car, boat etc without having applied to the police for your NIE number and had your NIE documentation returned. Likewise, you *cannot enter into a contract for the supply of electricity, water or a telephone line etc without giving your NIE/NIF number together with your bank details because these services will only accept clients whose bills are paid automatically from a bank*..." NIE / NIF Registration and & Residencia Application

Another source said one needs an NIE to open a bank account which was not true in our case (my husband was able to open a new account with La Caixa with just his Irish passport and $20 deposit). 

All in all, it is so confusing!


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## elisa31bcn (Jan 23, 2013)

Yes, it can be overwhelming, because you can many times get contradictory answers. My experience has been that a NIE is not necessary either to rent an apt. or have utilities set up.
I signed my rental contract without a NIE, and at the time had a non-resident bank account which I used to set up the utilities, water, electricity, gas. When I switched to a resident account, I switched everything over to that account, with my NIE. 
I had to wait until I had my NIE to get a contract for my mobile phone, but I used PAYG til then.


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## tommy.irene (Apr 5, 2013)

kimuyen said:


> Thanks, xabiachica and zenkarma, for clarifying it. It is good to hear that landlords accept passports to rent out a place. We are still a bit unsure as another source stated that since utilities are paid automatically from a bank and an NIE is needed to enter into a contract with utilities companies.
> 
> "In Spain you cannot legally buy property, a house, car, boat etc without having applied to the police for your NIE number and had your NIE documentation returned. Likewise, you *cannot enter into a contract for the supply of electricity, water or a telephone line etc without giving your NIE/NIF number together with your bank details because these services will only accept clients whose bills are paid automatically from a bank*..." NIE / NIF Registration and & Residencia Application
> 
> ...


I opened a Bank account..a telephone direct debit..Mobile phone.. Car hire.. all with a passport..then after been here 6 months went to regester at the Police station ..


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## tommy.irene (Apr 5, 2013)

tommy.irene said:


> I opened a Bank account..a telephone direct debit..Mobile phone.. Car hire.. all with a passport..then after been here 6 months went to regester at the Police station .


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

kimuyen said:


> The second question is, if we travel back to the US and Canada to visit family in December, then that time would not be counted toward the 183 days, correct? What would be considered sufficient proof? Airline tickets?


Are you leaving your apartment? Taking your furniture? Canceling your bank account? Etc?

If not you'll still have a domicile in Spain.

International Tax Blog: U.S.

Try that.

Going on vacation doesn't mean your home isn't your home.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

NickZ said:


> Are you leaving your apartment? Taking your furniture? Canceling your bank account? Etc?
> 
> If not you'll still have a domicile in Spain.
> 
> Going on vacation doesn't mean your home isn't your home.


What nonsense, sorry but this is just wrong.

I have an apartment in Spain, I have furniture in Spain and I have a bank account in Spain. All current and active.

I am not a fiscal tax payer in Spain because I spend less than 183 days a year there.

The qualification is how long you are physically there, not whether you furniture is there or not!

End of!


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

NickZ said:


> Are you leaving your apartment? Taking your furniture? Canceling your bank account? Etc?
> 
> If not you'll still have a domicile in Spain.
> 
> ...




Agree with Nick, you'll have to pay your taxes somewhere, be it Spain or the US. Going on holiday does not relieve you of that responsibility. Lets face it, if a little holiday was enough to prevent one being liable for tax, every single oerson would do it!

Could be wrong, but I seem to think I've read somewhere that those from the US have to make a US tax return every year, even if they no longer live there.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

brocher said:


> Agree with Nick, you'll have to pay your taxes somewhere, be it Spain or the US. Going on holiday does not relieve you of that responsibility. Lets face it, if a little holiday was enough to prevent one being liable for tax, every single oerson would do it!.


You can agree with whoever you like Brocher, it still isn't going to make you or Nick right!

And who said anything about being relieved of the responsibility of paying tax? The question was, if you re-read it: a holiday visit out of Spain wouldn't count towards the 183 day residency qualification for Spanish tax? And the answer is, yes it wouldn't.

Why? Because Spanish tax residency is largely based on the number of cumulative days you physically spend in the country. If you go home on holiday, you're not in the country and those days would not count towards the 183 day limit.

Where you're actually staying in Spain at the time or where your furniture is located or whether you have an active bank account or not is completely and utterly irrelevant.

And who said anything about not paying US taxes? That's also irrelevant.


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

zenkarma said:


> You can agree with whoever you like Brocher, it still isn't going to make you or Nick right!
> 
> And who said anything about being relieved of the responsibility of paying tax? The question was, if you re-read it: a holiday visit out of Spain wouldn't count towards the 183 day residency qualification for Spanish tax? And the answer is, yes it wouldn't.
> 
> ...



I can and do agree with Nick. 

You are free to disagree, however, you should exercise good manners regardless.

Tax is far more complex than just this 183 day business.

Just one of these other factors is, as in the link Nick gave, one can and will be deemed tax resident in whichever country they are deemed to be domiciled or to have their centre of interest - thus Nicks reference to where their furniture, bank etc is.

Your situation is completely different as, presumably, you also have a home (and furniture) and other interests in the UK.......and presumably you are declaring al your income to HMRC.

Holidays are irrelevant to the question of whether one is tax resident in a country.

If the OP does not become tax resident in Spain, they will remain tax resident in the country they are in now.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

brocher said:


> Tax is far more complex than just this 183 day business.


No it isn't. It's very straight forward in this _particular instance_ and I politely suggest you go away and actually read (and understand) the criteria for determining fiscal tax residency in Spain.

There are a number of criteria that determine this, but only one that actually applies in this _particular instance_ before Spanish fiscal tax residency is actually determined and that is the number of days spent in the country.



brocher said:


> Just one of these other factors is, as in the link Nick gave, one can and will be deemed tax resident in whichever country they are deemed to be domiciled or to have their centre of interest - thus Nicks reference to where their furniture, bank etc is.


Irrelevant as previously stated for this _particular instance._



brocher said:


> Your situation is completely different as, presumably, you also have a home (and furniture) and other interests in the UK.......and presumably you are declaring al your income to HMRC.


It isn't completely different at all. 

Where my principal residence is, is of no concern of the Spanish Hacienda. It might be in the UK and it might be in the Netherlands. Where I pay my tax and where I am principally domiciled is of no concern to the Spanish Hacienda as I do not spend more than 183 days a year in Spain I am not a Spanish fiscal resident and I am not liable for their taxes (beyond a non-resident property tax) despite owning an apartment in Spain and having furniture in that apartment and having a bank account in Spain as well.



brocher said:


> Holidays are irrelevant to the question of whether one is tax resident in a country.


Of course they're relevant. The number of days spent outside of Spain all count towards the total number of cumulative days to determine tax residency. The personal reasons for not being in Spain is of no concern of the Hacienda.



brocher said:


> If the OP does not become tax resident in Spain, they will remain tax resident in the country they are in now.


Not relevant to the discussion at hand.

I do wish people here would not give incorrect and conflicting advice.

By the way have a look at the thread title for a clue about what the thread is about!


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## kimuyen (Aug 8, 2013)

The original question about 183-day rule and tax consequence was not intended to come up with a scheme to evade paying taxes. We will still own properties and have investments in the US so we will be filing US tax returns every year. We don't want to be double taxed by both countries especially if we move around the middle of next year and have to deal with filing taxes in Spain (even if we don't pay it due to taxation agreement between the US and Spain). We would rather move a few weeks later. Or if holidays are not counted, then that is an option for us. Hence the question.


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## Snozzle12 (Aug 13, 2013)

brocher said:


> I can and do agree with Nick.
> 
> You are free to disagree, however, you should exercise good manners regardless.
> 
> ...


Most of that is guff. There is no international tax law which says you must be deemed a tax resident in one country.


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## Snozzle12 (Aug 13, 2013)

brocher said:


> Holidays are irrelevant to the question of whether one is tax resident in a country.
> 
> If the OP does not become tax resident in Spain, they will remain tax resident in the country they are in now.


You are making all that up.


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

Snozzle12 said:


> You are making all that up.


Not at all, as I said earlier tax is complex, and designed to ensure people pay their way. One can not just pick and choose the little bits of the rules and regulations which suit them. Clever planning, can minimise the tax burden, allowing the payee to take advantage of the tax laws in whichever country will be most advantageous, in the OP's case Spain and the US. This is particularly relevant in the year one leaves a country for another. In most cases, one will remain tax resident in the original country until such time as they prove satisfactorily to the tax body of that country that they are now tax resident elsewhere.

Everyone's circumstances are different, and as such, generalisations such as the 183 day rule, are dangerous when it comes to tax. the whole picture needs to be considered in each case.

Some more links similar to Nicks, which referred specifically to the US, as the OP is from the US. 

HM Revenue & Customs: Meaning of 'domicile' and how it affects your tax

Are you resident in Spain for tax purposes? - Spanish Property Insight

http://www.thinkspain.com/hottopics/residencytax/

I will post no further, as I have no wish to involve myself in an argument with those who display little knowledge and even less manners. I am no tax specialist, but hope this thread has been enough for the OP to grasp that they must check their financial situation carefully.


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## brocher (Mar 21, 2011)

kimuyen said:


> The original question about 183-day rule and tax consequence was not intended to come up with a scheme to evade paying taxes. We will still own properties and have investments in the US so we will be filing US tax returns every year. We don't want to be double taxed by both countries especially if we move around the middle of next year and have to deal with filing taxes in Spain (even if we don't pay it due to taxation agreement between the US and Spain). We would rather move a few weeks later. Or if holidays are not counted, then that is an option for us. Hence the question.


Kimuyen, no one is suggesting you are trying to evade tax, simply that it is more complex than just a 183 day rule. As I have just said in my previous post, you are wise to consider how to minimise your tax burden and plan accordingly. It may also be wise to take a little professional advice now to ensure you're planning is good and covers all angles.


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## Snozzle12 (Aug 13, 2013)

brocher said:


> Not at all, as I said earlier tax is complex, and designed to ensure people pay their way. One can not just pick and choose the little bits of the rules and regulations which suit them. Clever planning, can minimise the tax burden, allowing the payee to take advantage of the tax laws in whichever country will be most advantageous, in the OP's case Spain and the US. This is particularly relevant in the year one leaves a country for another. In most cases, one will remain tax resident in the original country until such time as they prove satisfactorily to the tax body of that country that they are now tax resident elsewhere.
> 
> Everyone's circumstances are different, and as such, generalisations such as the 183 day rule, are dangerous when it comes to tax. the whole picture needs to be considered in each case.
> 
> ...




We're not talking about the 183 day rule as a principle or generality, but as a specific criteria that Spain has to determine your tax liability in Spain.

Whether Spain might or might not find me liable to say tax on foreign earnings has sod all to do with HMRC who apply their own criteria to determine residency and thus tax liability. Residency and domicile determine liability not how much tax you pay overseas.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

kimuyen said:


> The original question about 183-day rule and tax consequence was not intended to come up with a scheme to evade paying taxes. We will still own properties and have investments in the US so we will be filing US tax returns every year. We don't want to be double taxed by both countries especially if we move around the middle of next year and have to deal with filing taxes in Spain (even if we don't pay it due to taxation agreement between the US and Spain). We would rather move a few weeks later. Or if holidays are not counted, then that is an option for us. Hence the question.


US citizens must always file a US income tax return no matter where in the world they reside. It's irrelevant where they own properties, have investments or earn their money. They MUST file.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

brocher said:


> I will post no further, as I have no wish to involve myself in an argument with those who display little knowledge and even less manners.


Cheek!

The situation here is straight forward, yet somehow you've managed to obfuscate, blur, obscure and complicate it. 

Then you've got the cheek to not only suggest that other contributors here have 'little knowledge' but 'no manners' either!

All the issues you've raised here are as I've repeatedly stated are just not relevant to the original posters question regarding the 183 day rule qualifying time period for fiscal tax residency in Spain.

Yet somehow you've managed to raise all manner of other issues regarding tax domicile, tax evasion and US tax returns which are all questions that have not been asked and are simply not relevant here. Not only that you keep posting links regarding tax domicile!

*Tax domicile is not relevant to the question being asked!*

To caveat all that lot you continue to repeat that tax is complex! With respect, it only seems complex to you, for others, the question asked here is very simple.

It's no wonder people get so confused about all this with such conflicting advice being offered. :rolleyes2:


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

Snozzle12 said:


> Most of that is guff. There is no international tax law which says you must be deemed a tax resident in one country.


:lol::dance::nod::lol:

ound:

!!!


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