# Alternative Energy



## msvh (Aug 5, 2008)

Hi folks, (it's been a while)

I have started doing some research on the preferred alternatives for power for a planned move in about 12 months and I would be very interested from those of you who chose to live out in the sticks - in fact anyone who uses alternative power frankly. I am particularly, interested in your estimated power usage, your choice of equipment (manufacturer/supplier) and why you went for them, including any good, bad or indifferent experiences from the decisions you made.

To give you a rough start point and given we will be relatively remote in Aragon, although we will have irrigation water, I have been considering the following:

1. FutureEnergy Wind turbine - 1 kw, seems to give good all round performance and realistically priced. 

2. Still unsure about the voltage though, probably go for 24v (any good advice welcome!)

3. Back-up 'portable' Generator, Diesel KDE 6700 Ta(4500 Watts) from Powerland.

4. Battery back up, charge controller and dump load - I have still to get my head around all this!

5. For hot water I am considering a EV tube option similar to the Ibersol natural circulation system - but have seen less costly alternatives (Sunfield solar - Chinese, I think). With a 250 lt tank.

There will be 3 of us (me the missus and my old man). We will need a fridge/freezer, washing machine and limited TV/PC use. Cooking on gas. Heating with wood burners.Would this be enough? Too much? my heads on fire...

Anything feedback would be gratefully accepted, particularly from those living in the cuds. 

(Just read through this before posting - reads like a market research task!! I can assure you all it is purely personal.) TIA

Msvh


----------



## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

msvh said:


> To give you a rough start point and given we will be relatively remote in Aragon, although we will have irrigation water, I have been considering the following:
> 
> 1. FutureEnergy Wind turbine - 1 kw, seems to give good all round performance and realistically priced.
> 
> Msvh


My first thoughts are ask about planning permission for wind - I know folk who've been refused this here in Madrid.

Is there NO chance of getting GRID power? - I was told by mate who has a mini solar plant that the problem is that batteries simply do NOT LAST - and that to have sufficient power you'll need a lot - about 6000Euros worth. He generated - sold to the Grid at 4 time the cost of buy power from them.


----------



## msvh (Aug 5, 2008)

chris(madrid) said:


> My first thoughts are ask about planning permission for wind - I know folk who've been refused this here in Madrid.
> 
> Is there NO chance of getting GRID power? - I was told by mate who has a mini solar plant that the problem is that batteries simply do NOT LAST - and that to have sufficient power you'll need a lot - about 6000Euros worth. He generated - sold to the Grid at 4 time the cost of buy power from them.


Absolutely no chance whatsoever for the foreseeable future. We were lucky to get the water frankly! I see your point, though. It is very rural 14km from teh nearest metelled road and I'd be surprised if they refused wind but I'll check all the same.

I am aware of a dutch couple living about 30k from where we are going to be, who are entirely alternative  (energy that is!) - but they are fortunate to have a huge 15kw diesel gennie at thier disposal with a hefty array of battery back-up - only needs a couple of hours for 3 days worth of power, though they are working with a gas fridge/freezer and as far as I can see, that will be the greediest appliance.


----------



## dizzy (Jul 12, 2008)

I am sorry that I cant' offer much assistance but I am incredibly interested as we are looking into a project that would have us without power and town water but a spring or well on the property. 50 year lease... I have always been interested in farmhouse cooking, green energy and self sufficiency. They don't always go hand in hand but I would love to hear how you get on. Stay in touch....
DiZ



msvh said:


> Absolutely no chance whatsoever for the foreseeable future. We were lucky to get the water frankly! I see your point, though. It is very rural 14km from teh nearest metelled road and I'd be surprised if they refused wind but I'll check all the same.
> 
> I am aware of a dutch couple living about 30k from where we are going to be, who are entirely alternative  (energy that is!) - but they are fortunate to have a huge 15kw diesel gennie at thier disposal with a hefty array of battery back-up - only needs a couple of hours for 3 days worth of power, though they are working with a gas fridge/freezer and as far as I can see, that will be the greediest appliance.


----------



## chris(madrid) (Mar 23, 2008)

msvh said:


> though they are working with a gas fridge/freezer and as far as I can see, that will be the greediest appliance.


ime here - what is EXPENSIVE is heating as most houses are NOT energy efficient. For lighting and the fridge etc - I could NOT justify energy storage costs - and I wish I could. I looked hard at Photoelectrics - It'sll be a 10-15 years investment imo. Hydraulic Solar heating is another matter - if you can have a HUGE underground water tank (about small pool size tank) - Free heating.

Be aware there is a MASSIVE anti windmill enviormentalist movement in Spain - caused by the wind-farms. If you've a ZEPA (protected bird/animal area) close - you're stuffed.


----------



## msvh (Aug 5, 2008)

chris(madrid) said:


> ime here - what is EXPENSIVE is heating as most houses are NOT energy efficient. For lighting and the fridge etc - I could NOT justify energy storage costs - and I wish I could. I looked hard at Photoelectrics - It'sll be a 10-15 years investment imo. Hydraulic Solar heating is another matter - if you can have a HUGE underground water tank (about small pool size tank) - Free heating.
> 
> Be aware there is a MASSIVE anti windmill enviormentalist movement in Spain - caused by the wind-farms. If you've a ZEPA (protected bird/animal area) close - you're stuffed.


I checked out your hydronics suggestion - expensive to setup, not the equipment per se but all the additional costs make it probably the least cost effective I've looked at given the volume we'd need. Plus, it would appear the siting of the house would be a problem due to bedrock. The 'Don Quixote' clans are springing up all over but most are peeved by the huge farms and turbines being forced upon the countryside - Tarifa is a good example - The Junta saying 'you will have it, we won't give you anything for having it and you'll be thankful that we make you connect to the 'cheap' power' whether you want to or not! Hmm, something just not right there. No parks or reserves that I'm aware of. Given our nearest 'neighbour' is almost 2 kms away and we are only looking at a 5m turbine I don't see that being a problem. I have seen one or two in the area but I think I'll check just in case.

I agree with you about the PV systems being just not efficient enough yet for your return. The Evacuated tube option with additional water storage fitted with a wet dump-charge from the battery back up is considerably more flexible and cost effective. I recently spoke to a guy who runs a ju-jitsu club who uses 2 x 
250ltr/evac tube panels for his showers - fine for upto 10 people twice a day he reckons. As far as heating goes, a wood burner all the way.....not least i've seen one that uses the hot gases as an additional radiator or water heater.

It is rapidly becoming clearer to me that it isn't 'simply' the cheapest systemor the one that claims most output but the most flexible and mutually supportive combination that proves to be the most 'cost effective'. It's just a matter of working how much power you _need_ before you can work out how long it'll take for it to become 'free'!

A friend has just brought this to my attention - The Beco WALLFORM System
Don't know if this would get passed the planning permission though.


----------

