# Please Help!!



## saddened (Dec 16, 2011)

Hi, I am of course in the same boat as the rest of you, sick, nervous and angry about this whole situation. I have filed back 4years at a cost of $7000.00. Now my latest situation is my son who is 28 and wants no part of it, he says I was born in Canada and I am Canadian, he just does not want to file and is extremely angry that I have even mentioned it.. but now I must lay down the law and get it done..He does not have a ssn number and I was wondering if the IRS could give him one if he files with his Canadian SSN. We live in Toronto and it is hard for us to go across into Buffalo to get a SSN number. Does anyone know what the best thing to do is?? I am so nervous on a constant basis that I cannot sleep or eat.. My husband is so upset with all this and does not even know that I want my son to file so there is no future problems. We are average people and cannot afford this. Coud anyone in the Toronto area have a good accountant that would not cost a fortune. The one I used for myself is good but very expensive. Please give advise please, I am so happy to find this site.. We all must stick together and give each other support.. I am serious when I say I have never been so upset and worried in my life, I am just hoping that my son will do the right thing and file, his birth was registered at US Consulate here in Toronto at the age of 2, which I just found out a few weeks ago when going through a personal file, and was shocked to find it, It has been 26 years ago when I did it, I did not even remember. I have not mentioned this to my son, but maybe this will prove to him he is US citizen, he has NO US Passport or SSN number.. OH Gosh I am so nervous to try to talk to him about it, my husband will be so upset about this.. Please someone I need advise!! Thanks so much to you all!!


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## Madonna (Nov 24, 2011)

saddened said:


> Hi, I am of course in the same boat as the rest of you, sick, nervous and angry about this whole situation. I have filed back 4years at a cost of $7000.00. Now my latest situation is my son who is 28 and wants no part of it, he says I was born in Canada and I am Canadian, he just does not want to file and is extremely angry that I have even mentioned it.. but now I must lay down the law and get it done..He does not have a ssn number and I was wondering if the IRS could give him one if he files with his Canadian SSN. We live in Toronto and it is hard for us to go across into Buffalo to get a SSN number. Does anyone know what the best thing to do is?? I am so nervous on a constant basis that I cannot sleep or eat.. My husband is so upset with all this and does not even know that I want my son to file so there is no future problems. We are average people and cannot afford this. Coud anyone in the Toronto area have a good accountant that would not cost a fortune. The one I used for myself is good but very expensive. Please give advise please, I am so happy to find this site.. We all must stick together and give each other support.. I am serious when I say I have never been so upset and worried in my life, I am just hoping that my son will do the right thing and file, his birth was registered at US Consulate here in Toronto at the age of 2, which I just found out a few weeks ago when going through a personal file, and was shocked to find it, It has been 26 years ago when I did it, I did not even remember. I have not mentioned this to my son, but maybe this will prove to him he is US citizen, he has NO US Passport or SSN number.. OH Gosh I am so nervous to try to talk to him about it, my husband will be so upset about this.. Please someone I need advise!! Thanks so much to you all!!


I feel your pain! I went through the same emotions when I first found out about the filing obligations and FBAR. I have two sons who were born in the U.S., so there is no question that they are U.S. citizens. Neither of them have SSNs nor passports. I hope that the more knowledgeable contributors to this forum can give some insight into filing without an SSN number. Since we plan to renounce, it seems unnecessary to get an SSN number just to file past years and then renounce.

This forum helped me tremendously both with valuable information and peace of mind that it is not anywhere near as bad as it seemed at first. I actually thought I might end up homeless! I was pretty frightened until I found this forum. I hope you find some peace, too.


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## saddened (Dec 16, 2011)

Madonna said:


> I feel your pain! I went through the same emotions when I first found out about the filing obligations and FBAR. I have two sons who were born in the U.S., so there is no question that they are U.S. citizens. Neither of them have SSNs nor passports. I hope that the more knowledgeable contributors to this forum can give some insight into filing without an SSN number. Since we plan to renounce, it seems unnecessary to get an SSN number just to file past years and then renounce.
> 
> This forum helped me tremendously both with valuable information and peace of mind that it is not anywhere near as bad as it seemed at first. I actually thought I might end up homeless! I was pretty frightened until I found this forum. I hope you find some peace, too.


Thank you Madonna, I am so thankful that I found this site as well, some messages have helped me calm down some, but others scare the hell out of me.. I am thinking of renouncing as well but have heard that they make it so hard that you would wish you never started it.. I have always been proud of my country but I think this is so unfair, we pay such high taxes here..My husband is so against it and will not give me support at all and is always screaming at me for even mentioning it.. he thinks it is just a scare tactic, but if he would get his head out of the sand he would see it is very real.. I just want to do the right thing so there is no problems or penalities. I talked to a accountant friend a few minutes ago, he does not do US taxes but he said the Canadian Revenue is a softy compared to the IRS, he said you cannot mess around with the IRS, they really mean business.. Thanks so much Madonna, I appreciate your reply. I just want this to go away..


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## Madonna (Nov 24, 2011)

saddened said:


> Thank you Madonna, I am so thankful that I found this site as well, some messages have helped me calm down some, but others scare the hell out of me.. I am thinking of renouncing as well but have heard that they make it so hard that you would wish you never started it.. I have always been proud of my country but I think this is so unfair, we pay such high taxes here..My husband is so against it and will not give me support at all and is always screaming at me for even mentioning it.. he thinks it is just a scare tactic, but if he would get his head out of the sand he would see it is very real.. I just want to do the right thing so there is no problems or penalities. I talked to a accountant friend a few minutes ago, he does not do US taxes but he said the Canadian Revenue is a softy compared to the IRS, he said you cannot mess around with the IRS, they really mean business.. Thanks so much Madonna, I appreciate your reply. I just want this to go away..


The main thing I learned is that the IRS is looking for tax cheats, deliberate tax evaders. Most of us would never owe taxes to the U.S. because we pay our Canadian taxes. The IRS does like to scare and intimidate and they have succeeded as far as I am concerned. My plan is to file five years past and submit six years of FBARs, reporting every account and earnings and then renounce. At this point, I do not think that the IRS will penalize me for late filing the FBARs and I know that I owe no taxes to the U.S., so I anticipate no penalities or interest owed.

I have lived in Canada for 37 years and became a citizen in 2007. I do have some relatives in the U.S., but otherwise no other ties. I, too, just want this to go away. And it will, eventually!!!


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## greyowl (Dec 6, 2011)

I do not understand why it is necessary to file tax returns and FBAR before you renounce.


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## saddened (Dec 16, 2011)

greyowl said:


> I do not understand why it is necessary to file tax returns and FBAR before you renounce.




Greyowl, I do not understand it either, all I have heard is that IRS has to make sure you do not owe anything before you can renounce. So they make you file!


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## Madonna (Nov 24, 2011)

greyowl said:


> I do not understand why it is necessary to file tax returns and FBAR before you renounce.


I don't want to renounce as a "covered expatriate" which would subject me to the exit tax and to possibly not being able to go back to the U.S. for visits because I would be labeled as renouncing for "tax reasons." I would owe no taxes anyway, so that is not my reason for renouncing, but a "covered expatriate" is automatically deemed to be renouncing for tax reasons. Correct me if I'm wrong. 

I want it to be a "good" renunciation, so I can forgot this whole thing and get on with my life.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2011)

greyowl said:


> I do not understand why it is necessary to file tax returns and FBAR before you renounce.


You can renounce without filing tax returns and FBARs. However, IRS also has to know you are no longer a citizen; you must file a form 8854. If you do not do this, there is a large penalty. You have to certify you have met all tax regulations for the 5 years prior to your expatriation; if you do not, as Madonna says, you will be considered a "covered" expatriate and will have to deal with the Exit Tax. I won't go into the Exit Tax conditions because it sounds like saddened and Madonna will not met the criteria for "covered" as long as they file the returns and certify on 8854 that they have done so.

Expatriation Tax June 3, 2_1

If you expatriated after June 16, 2008, the new IRC 877A expatriation rules apply to you if any of the following statements apply.

1)Your average annual net income tax for the 5 years ending before the date of expatriation or termination of residency is more than a specified amount that is adjusted for inflation ($145,000 for 2009 and 2010, $147,000 for 2011, and $151,000 for 2012). 
2)Your net worth is $2 million or more on the date of your expatriation or termination of residency. 
3)You fail to certify on Form 8854 that you have complied with all U.S. federal tax obligations for the 5 years preceding the date of your expatriation or termination of residency. 

Saddened, you might wish to include some of the following in any new threads as many of us are going straight to the Exit Tax subsection and might not see your threads..... Tax, FATCA, FBAR, expatriate, renounciation, etc. The moderators will move it there OR you can just to into Expat Tax and post your threads there.

Don't worry, it is horrible but there is light at the end of the tunnel!


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2011)

saddened said:


> Hi, I am of course in the same boat as the rest of you, sick, nervous and angry about this whole situation. I have filed back 4years at a cost of $7000.00. Now my latest situation is my son who is 28 and wants no part of it, he says I was born in Canada and I am Canadian, he just does not want to file and is extremely angry that I have even mentioned it.. but now I must lay down the law and get it done..He does not have a ssn number and I was wondering if the IRS could give him one if he files with his Canadian SSN. We live in Toronto and it is hard for us to go across into Buffalo to get a SSN number. Does anyone know what the best thing to do is?? I am so nervous on a constant basis that I cannot sleep or eat.. My husband is so upset with all this and does not even know that I want my son to file so there is no future problems. We are average people and cannot afford this. Coud anyone in the Toronto area have a good accountant that would not cost a fortune. The one I used for myself is good but very expensive. Please give advise please, I am so happy to find this site.. We all must stick together and give each other support.. I am serious when I say I have never been so upset and worried in my life, I am just hoping that my son will do the right thing and file, his birth was registered at US Consulate here in Toronto at the age of 2, which I just found out a few weeks ago when going through a personal file, and was shocked to find it, It has been 26 years ago when I did it, I did not even remember. I have not mentioned this to my son, but maybe this will prove to him he is US citizen, he has NO US Passport or SSN number.. OH Gosh I am so nervous to try to talk to him about it, my husband will be so upset about this.. Please someone I need advise!! Thanks so much to you all!!


Saddened, how is it that you are USC? 

$7000 is an outrageous price to pay for 4 returns that are not complicated. My accountant charged $1000 ($250 per year). You can pm me and I will give you her name etc.

Your son is definitely a USC if you registered him. You would have received from the Consulate a "Report of Birth Abroad" and a "Certificate of Birth Abroad." To the best of my knowledge, he cannot file a US return with a Canadian Social Ins number and my advice is to NEVER let IRS have that. I just looked at the 1040 and don't see an option that would replace the SSN. He could file an FBAR with his Canadian passport number (if he has one). I had to take my son (same exact situation) across the border to get his SSN. 

He may be "under the IRS radar" with no SSN and no US passport. Some people are opting to do nothing. He is an adult, it is his choice. The way most of us came to terms with this is realizing what would happen if we didn't act. You would have to decide if that would work with him, I cannot figure another way. Sorry don't have a better idea about this.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2011)

Madonna said:


> The main thing I learned is that the IRS is looking for tax cheats, deliberate tax evaders. Most of us would never owe taxes to the U.S. because we pay our Canadian taxes. The IRS does like to scare and intimidate and they have succeeded as far as I am concerned. My plan is to file five years past and submit six years of FBARs, reporting every account and earnings and then renounce. At this point, I do not think that the IRS will penalize me for late filing the FBARs and I know that I owe no taxes to the U.S., so I anticipate no penalities or interest owed.
> 
> I have lived in Canada for 37 years and became a citizen in 2007. I do have some relatives in the U.S., but otherwise no other ties. I, too, just want this to go away. And it will, eventually!!!


You may be able to relinquish instead of renounce. After you became a citizen in 2007, did you file US tax returns or FBARS? Travel on a US passport? See the posts in the Exit Tax section on "Relinquishing" - esp posts by PetrosResearch and Schubert.


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## Peg (Sep 22, 2011)

saddened said:


> I am thinking of renouncing as well but have heard that they make it so hard that you would wish you never started it..


Have not heard that. I have renounced but have not yet received my CLN (Certificate of Loss of Nationality) nor have I heard anything from the IRS about the 1040s and FBARs that I filed...

If your son only has earned income under $90,000, his returns could be simple. However, your son is an adult so I'm guessing you cannot make him do it...


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## Lovecheese (Dec 8, 2011)

hang in there, we are lal in same boat!

Read some other threads on here as the IRS was supposed to announce they are not going to require dual citizens to back file now, only 2011 and forward. Check into that before you get an ulcer! I cannot remember which one I read it in, sorry.

And, its not that hard to renounce, just file back 5 years and make an appt, say "Adios" sign and away you go. Dont listen to all the hype about what they "can do" to us, as likelyhood is slim to none


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