# American moving to Italy with EU spouse



## jet6619

CIAO!!!

I'm very glad I've bumped into these forums. 

Well, I am coming up on my separation from the military next month. I was stationed in Italy for 2 years. While I was there I traveled around Europe on my off time. Ended up meeting a beautiful Romanian girl who later became my wife. 

While stationed there, I also fell in love it Italy and the rest of Europe. My wife is still over there, going through the process of getting her visa to come here, which we might cancel depending on weather I decide to stay in the military or not. So I am going around gathering all the information to be prepared. I've emailed all the Italian Embassies here in the states, not one has responded by phone or email 

As it stands, she will be a resident of Italy soon. I already have a codice fiscale from being stationed there (if that helps with anything for the process) With that, am I allowed to apply for the Family reunion visa? If so, i understand that I have to fill out a visa application and take it to the Italian Embassy in Los Angeles. Along with 
-Passport photo
-copy of wife's passport
-invitation letter (where can i get that)
-marriage certificate (romanian and english on same document)

Ok, so where can I get a format of that invitation letter? Also, do I have to provide a document showing her job pay. Is there a minimum income required? After all she will be my source of finance for the visa, if I separate. Is that all I have to provide to the embassy?

I also need information on being able to drive my vehicle to Italy after I ship it there. It is a 2009 Audi A3. I know I need to take a written test and have my car inspected....if I remember correctly. But this was all done by the base when I was stationed there. I need to figure out how to do it as a civilian.

After I get there, I have some knowledge about what to do after arrive (ie permesso di soggiorno and becoming a resident etc...) But any more information would be appreciated. 

Thanks in advance for this. Things, unfortunately, are happening a bit too fast. Since I tried changing jobs in the military with no success, messed my plans a little. This is something I have prepared for financially and mentally. I look forward to moving to Italy if I do decide to not reenlist.

Thanks again


----------



## BBCWatcher

jet6619 said:


> Ended up meeting a beautiful Romanian girl who later became my wife.


Congratulations.



> As it stands, she will be a resident of Italy soon. I already have a codice fiscale from being stationed there (if that helps with anything for the process) With that, am I allowed to apply for the Family reunion visa?


You are allowed, but you don't have to. Americans are permitted visa free entry into the Schengen Area whereupon you have EU treaty rights to residence with your EU spouse in Italy. It's possible the Italian consulates didn't answer because you don't need their services.



> Ok, so where can I get a format of that invitation letter? Also, do I have to provide a document showing her job pay. Is there a minimum income required? After all she will be my source of finance for the visa, if I separate. Is that all I have to provide to the embassy?


No, no, no, and no. You do not need a visa since you are a U.S. citizen with visa waiver privileges going to join your EU wife in Italy.



> I also need information on being able to drive my vehicle to Italy after I ship it there. It is a 2009 Audi A3. I know I need to take a written test and have my car inspected....if I remember correctly. But this was all done by the base when I was stationed there. I need to figure out how to do it as a civilian.


No way. Abandon this idea. You won't be in the military any more, so you will not be able to drive a U.S. specification car in Italy. Sell the car -- a 2009 Audi A3 holds its value very well, so good choice -- decide whether you need a car in Italy, and get one there. (You'll also need to get an Italian driver's license, and you must do that within one year.)



> After I get there, I have some knowledge about what to do after arrive (ie permesso di soggiorno and becoming a resident etc...) But any more information would be appreciated.


Here are the steps:

1. Your wife establishes residence in Italy. She does that by going to the Anagrafe in the commune. She should get a receipt indicating she has registered. The police may stop by just to verify that she actually lives there.

2. When you arrive in Italy, if you did not get a stamp in your passport from Italian passport control (i.e. you had a flight connection or flight/train connection in another European country), within 8 calendar days of arrival in Italy go to the questura and get a "dichiarazione di presenza."

3. Within 90 calendar days of arrival in the Schengen Area go to the Post Office or questura. Bring yourself, 4 ID photos, and originals and one set of photocopies of: your passport's data page, your entry stamp or dichiarazione di presenza, your wife's residence receipt, and your long-form marriage certificate. Fill out the form for a PdS/CdS, and also bring some euro just in case you need to pay something.

If you got married in Europe then get an official copy of your marriage certificate in what's usually called something like "international format" (which will probably include many languages, probably including Italian). If you got married elsewhere then get your long-form certificate with an apostille, Italian translation, and (preferably) a stamp from the Italian consulate having jurisdiction over its place of issue. (That's the one thing you might need the consulate for.) If your wife had to record her marriage to you in Romania, but you married elsewhere, get an official long-form copy of the Romanian record in international format and use that instead of the non-European record.

Submit your application for a PdS/CdS, and get a receipt.

4. Carry your passport with receipt whenever you go out. Keep photocopies at home in case they're lost or stolen.

5. Once you have the receipt you can enroll in the public health system. You can seek employment.

6. Some time later your "permanent" PdS/CdS will arrive. Make sure you renew it before it expires.

You must remain married and living with your spouse in order to continue residing in Italy. You are permitted short duration trips to other countries in the Schengen Area for up to 90 days (total outside Italy per trip to other Schengen countries). You can immediately take another short trip after returning to Italy -- the normal 180 day part of the requirement doesn't apply when you're a legal foreign resident of Italy.

If your spouse should predecease you, and assuming you had nothing to do with it, you may continue living and working in Italy as long as you wish if you have at least one year of legal residence before she dies. However, if you permanently leave Italy you would not have the right to return there to live and work (unless you would otherwise have that right).

After 5 years of continuous legal residence in Italy you may apply for an EC Long-Term Residence Permit. (Up to 10 months of total absence from Italy is tolerated, up to 6 months of which can be one trip.) The EC-Long Term Residence Permit is effectively like permanent residency, and it also allows you to relocate to many other European countries if you wish. After 10 years of continuous legal residence in Italy you may apply for naturalization as an Italian citizen if you wish. (That waiting period drops to 3 years if you have a parent or grandparent who was born an Italian citizen or who could have been recognized as such.)

To net it out, simply assemble the correct documentation (your marriage certificate in the proper form, in particular) and hop on a plane to join your wife in Italy.

Best wishes.


----------



## BBCWatcher

One point I forgot to mention. When you travel to Italy you might be buying a one-way ticket. That's OK, but an airline check-in agent might question that since you don't have a PdS to present yet. (Usually not, but occasionally that happens.) If so, don't volunteer a solution, but be prepared to buy a return or onward ticket. (Onward in this case would be Rome to London, for example -- London is outside the Schengen Area.) The best way to do that is to buy a fully refundable return or onward ticket using a credit card. As soon as you arrive in Italy, apply for a ticket refund and call your credit card company to let them know the charge will be refunded. (Many/most credit card companies will let you dispute the charge while it's being refunded.)

A military ID may also work if you still have one (and it's still valid).

Fairly often roundtrip tickets are less expensive than one way tickets anyway, so maybe you'll be buying a roundtrip ticket. But I thought I'd mention it.


----------



## jet6619

THANK YOU so much for the reply. The most informative answer I've received on this issue. 

I simply want to do things "by the book" on getting myself there. But if I really dont require a visa, I can see how it help with saving time,money.....and gas.

I really have no chance with the car? And I truley can not find to much info on it. Only thing i can determine is that you can send and drive one over there, but for a few months. I really can't sell the car as I still owe on it. 

Yes, I do intend to buy a round trip ticket, it wouldn't hurt to do so.


----------



## BBCWatcher

jet6619 said:


> I really have no chance with the car?


Oh, there's a chance. There's near zero chance it'll be any less expensive. And a 2009 Audi A3 is not a special car. They do sell A3s in Italy.

Search this forum for tales of woe among those who have tried to import a car from the U.S. to Italy. Just don't.



> I really can't sell the car as I still owe on it.


Sure you can. The proceeds of the sale pay off the loan. If it's a lease, different story.

In either case that's even more reason why you can't export the car. If there's a lien on the car from the lender, how do you think the lender would like their collateral leaving the country (and getting physically modified to Italian specifications)? Check your loan agreement, but export is probably expressly prohibited. If it's a lease, how do you return the car? Same problem with physical modifications.

Just don't. Really, really don't.


----------



## marco 1974

If you wish to move in Italy and living here with your wife you need to apply, to the Italian embassy, for a visa for family reunion.
But before that your wife will need asking, to the Questura of the town where she lives, for the nulla osta.
such nulla osta is essential for you to obtain the visa.
once you will arrive in Italy, within 8 days you will need to request the permesso di soggiorno.
this is shortly what you will have to do for you to live in Italy.

ciao
Marco


----------



## marco 1974

i dont agree.

usa citizen are anyway extra-eu and therefore need the visa to enter in italy.

here is the link of the Italian Polizia and the domanda n.1735 explain it. 

ciao


----------



## marco 1974

the forum do not allow me to post url...but you can check on the website of Polizia.


----------



## marco1974b

an american can stay legally in italy, for a max period of 90 days, only for reason as tourism, business, sport or study.
the family reunion, that allow you to live for a longer stay, is not provided in those case.

therefore, even you are an american citizen you must apply first for a visa and afterwards, once in italy, require the permesso di soggiorno.

anyway, i suggest you to ask to the italian consulate before buying the ticket to italy, as they know more than me and BBC


----------



## marco1974b

dear BBC 
i am giving my advice according the law.
and for family reunion reasons the extra-eu citizenship must apply for a visa first.

then if at the eauropean borders there are no control it is not my affair.
i can say you that many people from afrika come to italy by boat without any visa, but this is not the best way to come legally in Italy.


----------



## marco1974b

dear BBC 

a visa for tourism in italy cannot be converted. this is the italian law.
then as you see many people who enter illegally by boat from africa then could become legally resident in italy.
but as i said i give legal advice and for this matter a family reunion visa is necesary.

the link you pasted here is not the law and also my gardener can write many of them.

bye bye for me the discussion is over 

just last advice, follow the law not an advice from unknown

marco


----------



## latfla

BBCWatcher said:


> buy a fully refundable return or onward ticket using a credit card. As soon as you arrive in Italy, apply for a ticket refund and call your credit card company to let them know the charge will be refunded. (Many/most credit card companies will let you dispute the charge while it's being refunded.)
> 
> Would that also be the case, say, Miami-Rome, by ship?


----------



## BBCWatcher

latfla said:


> Would that also be the case, say, Miami-Rome, by ship?


Good question. In that case it'd be the passenger ship company that would be the party to raise an objection before the destination's immigration authorities do (if they do). I think it's very unlikely anybody would raise an objection, but it's possible and (as mentioned) there's an easy solution: a fully refundable return or onward ticket.

In practice if you appear middle class or better and possess a "western" country's citizenship it's rare you'll be hassled, particularly if you have an abundance of stamps in your passport that clearly show you know how to get out of a country as easily as you get in. However, _technically_ countries (and thus carriers) require evidence of a return or onward ticket if you don't have a visa, residence permit, or applicable citizenship for your destination that says otherwise. If you just don't like even the slight possibility of hassle, get a refundable ticket and printout before you go. (Or get a visa.)


----------



## Arturo.c

jet6619 said:


> I've emailed all the Italian Embassies here in the states, not one has responded by phone or email


Hello there,

There is only one Italian Embassy in the US (in Washington DC), and it doesn't issue visas.

Italian Consulates in the US do issue visas, but they are chronically understaffed and swamped by e-mails, that's why they don't reply to all of them, particularly if they are very generic. On the other hand, on the website of the Italian Ministry of Foreign Affairs there is a very useful FAQ page (titled _"Do you need a visa?"_) in which you could find an answer to most of your questions.

In your message you say that your Romanian wife is not yet residing in Italy, and this could be a problem, as visas for spouses are usually issued only to persons married to Italian citizens or to citizens of EU member countries already residing in Italy. Therefore it would be better to wait until she is a registered resident of Italy and then apply for the entry visa.

The application process is time-consuming because of all the red tape involved, and could take several weeks before the visa is issued. Furthermore, once you got your visa and travel to Italy, you will have to apply to the local authorities for a "carta di soggiorno", which is a document similar to an American "green card" stating your right to live and work in Italy (and in any other EU member country).

Congratulations again and good luck!


----------



## BBCWatcher

Don't need a visa for this, folks. The EU citizen (non-Italian) needs the documentation described in this guide, and the American spouse needs to enter Italy legally then follow the process on page 8 of this guide. Note the language: "with the visa _if required_." (Emphasis mine.) Americans don't need visas to enter the Schengen Area, and they're non-EU which explains why "if required" appears in that guide in that section about foreigners.

This guide backs that up: "No other documents may be requested." Legal entry is only required because it's always a violation to enter illegally, but that has nothing to do with the requirements to apply for a residence permit which are quite precisely defined.

The benefits of getting a visa (if you're an American spouse of an EU citizen) before you go are quite limited. Here they are:

1. You won't need a return or onward air ticket when you go.
2. You have probably proved that your marriage documentation is acceptable before you go.

That's it. #1 can be solved if you buy a fully refundable return or onward air ticket. #2 is solved if the consulate stamps your translation before you go.

There's no "conversion" of visa here, by the way, because there is no visa required. Americans have Schengen visa waiver privileges. Americans (and other visa waiver privileged nationalities) cannot extend their stays _independently_ except in narrow circumstances such as asylum and medical emergencies. But as documented treaty-covered co-resident family members, no problem.


----------



## Sebastiano

jet6619 said:


> CIAO!!!
> 
> Thanks in advance for this. Things, unfortunately, are happening a bit too fast. Since I tried changing jobs in the military with no success, messed my plans a little. This is something I have prepared for financially and mentally. I look forward to moving to Italy if I do decide to not reenlist.
> 
> Thanks again


Just my 2 cents. Really think about moving to Italy as a civilian. If you mean you will have a job, well, if it's a good job give it a try. But if you mean you will go to Italy with your wife, and then look for a job, I believe you will have better luck in the US. 
I'd stay in the military, at least until this hell of a financial crisis is over.

Regards,


----------



## rfs799

marco 1974 said:


> i dont agree.
> 
> usa citizen are anyway extra-eu and therefore need the visa to enter in italy.
> 
> here is the link of the Italian Polizia and the domanda n.1735 explain it.
> 
> ciao


He is married to a Romanian woman--he may enter Italy without a visa and he has the legal right to take any job an EU citizen could. The only requirement is for the residence, he and his wife must show proof of employment and registration with the local ASL health service and/or proof of private medical insurance and sufficient funds.


----------



## marco1974b

I repeat: Americans can enter in Italy without visa for stay until 90 days. 
For family reunion reason is necessary the visa.


----------



## BBCWatcher

So where's the official government source that supports your assertion, Marco?

There isn't one. There are official government sources that say the opposite. I've posted links. Legal entry is (always) required, and Americans (among others) can enter Italy and the Schengen Area without a visa, legally.

Your repeating something doesn't make it true. Official government citations might.


----------



## rfs799

marco1974b said:


> dear BBC
> 
> a visa for tourism in italy cannot be converted. this is the italian law.
> then as you see many people who enter illegally by boat from africa then could become legally resident in italy.
> but as i said i give legal advice and for this matter a family reunion visa is necesary.
> 
> the link you pasted here is not the law and also my gardener can write many of them.
> 
> bye bye for me the discussion is over
> 
> just last advice, follow the law not an advice from unknown
> 
> marco


So Mr Marco, how do you explain all the immigrants who enter Italy illegally and end up with legal residence? Dunque Sr Marco, vorrebe spiegarmi come tanti clandestini prendeno in fine la carta di soggiorno e residenza?


----------



## marco1974b

In this forum i try to give advices. It is not an hearing and i do not care to prove you anything.
I can suggest to the American citizens who wish to stay in Italy for more than 90 days to contact the Italian consulate to get the official information.


----------



## marco1974b

Dear rfs
I advice only about how to enter in Italy legally. 
It is not my job suggest to enter in Italy with a touristic visa (or even without visa) and then stay for more than 90 days.


----------



## rfs799

I see, but where did you read that one cannot convert a tourist visa into a family visa in Italy? So many immigrants come here with tourist visas and end up staying and obtaining legal residence.


----------



## BBCWatcher

Let's be a little more precise, though: where did you read that one cannot obtain a permesso di soggiorno (or carta di soggiorno) after legally entering Italy without a visa, as a Schengen visa waiver entrant?


----------

