# 'New' weed killer laws



## snikpoh

I had heard about this but hadn't taken much notice.

However, a friend has just tried to buy some weed killer (glyphosate) from our local co-operativa and couldn't. He rang us to speak to them in Spanish as he can't speak the language.

My friend has a holiday home here and wants to keep the vegetation down to prvent problems with forest fires. He lost all his trees, palms etc. a couple of years ago and doesn't want the same happening again.

So, it seems that from 26th November 2015, one cannot now buy liquid weed killer in fairly large quantities without being registered. This registration involves going to the town hall and completing the necessary paperwork but also involves taking a course! This course is ONLY available in Spanish.


Anyone know any more about this? There is, apparently, a 3000€ fine for being caught spraying, even from a back-pack sprayer.


----------



## Pazcat

We touched on this in the gardening thread.
What you said appears to be the case, I have read elsewhere that it will only apply to larger quantities and small bottles should be allowed but I don't trust that info at all.

Apparently it has been underway in Valencia for some time which goes someway in explaining why I have not been able to find a good weed killer anywhere.

Personally I think this is ridiculous, that said this is coming at a time when many EU nations are banning glyphosate outright.

Thankfully the good people at Monsanto have no qualms with shipping to Spain, most do not.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/ROUNDUP-BIA...F8&qid=1451736430&sr=1-65&keywords=glyphosate


----------



## Guest

I've heard about the new regs but am unsure about the extent. Does anyone know if this applies to substances other than weedkiller, specifically, chemicals used to spray palm trees against the red palm beetle?


----------



## Maureen47

This is the case , my brother in law did the course and then went to Valencia for the exam a couple of weeks ago. The local supplier now has his certificate and wil lsell him the necessary chemicals. This is fortunate for us as he can spray our land for us. He found the course ok but he is pretty fluent in Spanish and comes from a technical background so understood a lot of the principles. He said it was mainly Health and Safety related and the exam wasnt too bad but there were around 14 modules of coursework online prior to the exam which were also tested.


----------



## olivefarmer

Nice to see it isn't just we olive growers who have to be accredited.

You can do some wrong with simple stuff like weed killer.


----------



## thrax

This has been the case here for the last two years. Fortunately, one of our Spanih friends has such a licence so we buy it through him.


----------



## skip o

I'm not experienced with weeding in Spain, but in the US I had much better results just paying local college kids to dig up the weeds. Sprays didn't work well for me.


----------



## 90199

Bought two bottles here just before Christmas.


----------



## gus-lopez

thrax said:


> This has been the case here for the last two years. Fortunately, one of our Spanih friends has such a licence so we buy it through him.


Unfortunately it is illegal to use it though. What snickpoh posted is more or less spot on. You cannot buy it & even if you do ,you cannot use it. Anyone around here spraying with a back pack is automatically checked now by the Policia local. It's 7k the fine here. Course is 5 hours/day for a week here & then exam following week. 30 questions with pass rate at 50% .

We've had to give name ,address, nie ,etc, even to buy it for the last 2 years.

& , as from last October the law is the same in the UK.


----------



## jimenato

Any idea what the problem is with glyphosate?


----------



## Pazcat

jimenato said:


> Any idea what the problem is with glyphosate?


I think at least here in Spain it is more of a regulatory thing, which is why I think meetloafs question is a good one as I think this may not just be about glyphosate but I don't know.
Safe handling of chemicals and environment type of stuff.

Round up is still available on the shelves in the UK so I don't think the UK is overly concerned until their hand is forced but it will likeley be because many EU countries have already banned glyphosate on the grounds it may have a link with cancer and no doubt the EU will eventually get around to it.


----------



## eagletwelve

Pazcat said:


> Personally I think this is ridiculous, that said this is coming at a time when many EU nations are banning glyphosate outright.
> 
> Thankfully the good people at Monsanto have no qualms with shipping to Spain, most do not.


We may not like the regulations, but they are what they are.

Question: If you got caught spaying something like this that is illegal, would you tell the authorities that Monsanto should pay the fine because, even after knowing it was illegal, shipped it to you anyway?


----------



## Lolito

Bought 2 bottles of touchdown premium last week and no-one said anything....


----------



## jimenato

Pazcat said:


> I think at least here in Spain it is more of a regulatory thing, which is why I think meetloafs question is a good one as I think this may not just be about glyphosate but I don't know.
> Safe handling of chemicals and environment type of stuff.
> 
> Round up is still available on the shelves in the UK so I don't think the UK is overly concerned until their hand is forced but it will likeley be because many EU countries have already banned glyphosate on the grounds it may have a link with cancer and no doubt the EU will eventually get around to it.


Glyphosate is in the same category of 'probable' carcinogen as hairdressing, art glass manufacture, and shiftwork. 

I suspect that it is more likely to be because of the ridiculous anti Monsanto bandwagon TBH. 

This theory is borne out by...



Lolito said:


> Bought 2 bottles of touchdown premium last week and no-one said anything....


... which contains glyphosate but is made by Syngetia rather than Monsanto.


----------



## Pazcat

I'd be happy if I could find Syngetia stuff around but there is simply no stuff on the shelves anywhere that I can find. All I have found is some crappy Masso psuedo organic stuff that has even crappier instructions for use.

I'm a touch more cynical in all I can see is this being a needless revenue raising excercise that will only end up costing the state more than it will make.

I think there is still a bit of confusion with what the actual law is, I know I am confused.

That classification though is only recent and has been enough for the Netherlands to ban home use of it and in France it remains behind a locked door, some Swiss and German retailers wont stock it, I think in the EU it's days may be numbered.

Still there is always vinegar, right?


----------



## gus-lopez

It is nothing to do with what is in any of them but knowing how to use them , when to /safe handling etc. Basically if you go out with your weedkiller & spray all the ditch banks & then the farmer runs 10million litres of water down for his lettuce & it is all then contaminated.


----------



## Pazcat

Well I ordered a 5 litre tub from amazon and it arrived with no issues, not sure how long you will be able to do that for but while stocks last I guess.


----------



## Pazcat

So here are the relevant laws/decrees I believe.

http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2012/09/15/pdfs/BOE-A-2012-11605.pdf

DECRETO 98/2012, de 15 de junio, del Consell, por el que regula las condiciones para el ejercicio de actividades de formación de manipuladores de plaguicidas de uso fitosanitario. [2012/6023]

I keep hearing/seeing that this is an EU wide initiative but it clearly is not, it's just a Spanish interpretation of them.


----------



## Lolito

Went yesterday again to buy a bottle, 1 litre, of killer for piojo rojo, and they gave it to me, however, they said, it would be the last time as now I will need a 'carnet de herbicida' he gave me a phone number to call and sort it out, apparently i need to register and they will send me a carnet so i can buy it again. 
pah!


----------



## Pazcat

I have just read all those links and it still isn't overly clear to me what the difference is between professional and non-professional use.
It seems glyphosate makes the list because it is no good if you spray it in your eyes. 

Our town hall are offering classes at 50 euro a head over 8 days and 3 hour lessons, at least that is what I read. Maybe it is available for 8 days and not an 8 day course.


----------



## Lolito

24 hours to learn how to spray a tree??


----------



## Pazcat

I have no idea and don't plan to find out.

Mind you if what you say is all you need to do is register to a list I'd happily do that.


----------



## snikpoh

Lolito said:


> 24 hours to learn how to spray a tree??


Nope - it's not only spraying trees, it's general weed killing as well.

The rules are as stated earlier, to try and make you aware of the H&S issues as well as the possibility of poising the ground.

I have been to the relevant authorities to find out what I have to do. Here it's a two day course of 1.5 hours per day and then you get a certificate. Some have been told that they then have to go to Valencia for an exam as well!

The difference between professional and not seems to be volumes. That is, I can buy as many 1 litre pots or sachets as I want, but I can't buy the 5 or 10 litre containers that I used to (these are deemed to be for professionals who require more).


Seems to be a complete farce with different areas doing different things and interpreting the rules differently - welcome to Spain (again).


----------



## gus-lopez

Pazcat said:


> So here are the relevant laws/decrees I believe.
> 
> http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2012/09/15/pdfs/BOE-A-2012-11605.pdf
> 
> DECRETO 98/2012, de 15 de junio, del Consell, por el que regula las condiciones para el ejercicio de actividades de formación de manipuladores de plaguicidas de uso fitosanitario. [2012/6023]
> 
> I keep hearing/seeing that this is an EU wide initiative but it clearly is not, it's just a Spanish interpretation of them.


It is you can't buy it in volume in UK now without having passed the course. Came in last october. If you spray using a back pack type sprayer then you must be registered.
All comes under sustainable use directive. 
Sustainable use of pesticides - European Commission

Here the course is 5 days at 5 hours per day Then an exam the following week.


----------



## Pazcat

Yeah but it is only a directive, the Spanish are the ones who have decided that you can't buy any at all without this license.
It's still available in most of the EU for home use so no point blaming the EU for this one.

And yeah, fair enough if you use it commercially or on or around food stuffs, frankly it's amazing no such laws existed in the first place.
Still I'm not sure how much volume it would take in the UK before you can't buy it, I can order concentrate to make up to 250 litres of the stuff on amazon(in the UK that is).
I had to get ticketed for when I worked in the farm/vineyards then again they would of laughed you away if you said I'm here for my round up ticket.

Still I maintain there is a vast gap between professional or bulk use and that of domestic use and this law is stupid.


----------



## Lolito

I understand the rules, however, i find it a bit silly as I only need it for 1 orange tree and 1 grapefruit tree, to kill the piojo rojo, or whatever you call it in English.

Also I use the other (weed killer) to kill weeds around the outside border of my house, nothing else. 

Although, the man said, that there are small bottles of 10 ml i think, that i can use on 10 litres of water, which is enough for what I want it, so I have bought 20 small bottles, lol, so everytime I use it (4 times a year), i use a small bottle on 10 litres and voila!


----------



## ExpatWannabee

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that there are a lot of people on this thread eager to increase their chances of getting cancer. All for the sake of getting rid of some weeds. All I can say is good luck with your chemo treatments!


----------



## el romeral

Typical Spanish to over complicate things :loco::doh::frusty:


----------



## Guest

Sorry to be dense but I'm still not sure which pesticides/herbicides this law applies to. Is it all of them or ones with specific ingredients? I'm particularly interested in anything which restricts use of chemicals which kill red palm weevil. Tks.


----------



## Pazcat

I can't say for sure but in one of those links I gave above(sorry they are in Spanish but google translate does work) there is a list near the end of the document with all the various number codes they use to classify pesticides and such, for example H3181 means dangerous in contact with eyes.

So I guess if you find out the codes for said pesticide you can cross check with that.
Probably has no reality with what is happening on the storefronts though.


----------



## olivefarmer

Ten years ago it was a very common sight to see a tractor slowly towing a one or two thousand litre spraying rig with two unfortunates actually directing a spray each on long rubber pipes over the ground. It was the norm not to wear a mask, protective clothes or rubber gloves. The workers stank of the liquid . 

Now thankfully a lot is done by automated sprayer with an enclosed tractor cab. Where the land is still done manually the guys wear disposable one shot suits with hoods, goggles, mask and long rubber gloves.

I dare say that in twenty years there will be a rash of cancers or illnesses caused through malpractice (unknown at the time) in the last twenty years.

They used to spray our hillsides olive groves by plane until only a few years ago. No notice but when you heard the plane you got inside and stayed inside. I bet that stopped not due to money as was the common thought but the health implications.


----------



## jimenato

ExpatWannabee said:


> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that there are a lot of people on this thread eager to increase their chances of getting cancer. All for the sake of getting rid of some weeds. All I can say is good luck with your chemo treatments!


Why do you say that?


----------



## Relyat

olivefarmer said:


> Ten years ago it was a very common sight to see a tractor slowly towing a one or two thousand litre spraying rig with two unfortunates actually directing a spray each on long rubber pipes over the ground. It was the norm not to wear a mask, protective clothes or rubber gloves. The workers stank of the liquid .


I've been watching this happen in the groves at the back of me for the past 12 months


----------



## ExpatWannabee

jimenato said:


> Why do you say that?


The reason I say that is because the World Heath Organization's International Agency for Research on Cancer has classified glyphosate as "probably carcinogenic to humans." It has been associated with, among other things, non-hodgkins lymphomas. The use of glyphosate has been banned completely in cities like Paris, Chicago and Toronto and countries like The Netherlands and Denmark. Of course, the pesticide industry says it's not harmful to humans, but whose word do you want to bet your life on, the WHO's or Monsanto's?


----------



## Pazcat

So is bacon, I'll take my chances.


----------



## starynightsky

Pazcat said:


> So is bacon, I'll take my chances.


Over the years I have read about many many things that are linked to cancer and can cause cancer. 

I will wear a mask and take my chances with the weed killer.... oh and bacon too.


----------



## jimenato

Pazcat said:


> So is bacon, I'll take my chances.


Quite. 

Glyphosate is in the same class (2A) as doing shiftwork, being a hairdresser and eating red meat. 

Worth keeping a proper sense of proportion about this.


----------



## Pazcat

Yes, processed meats are on the same level as alcohol and tobacco which is a higher rating than glyphosate.
Well if I was to be worried about anything the above should do it as that ship sailed a long time ago.

Even when applying round up the levels of exposure are virtually non-existent for home use , heck even a child knows not to spray it on themselves.


----------



## jimenato

Pazcat said:


> Yes, processed meats are on the same level as alcohol and tobacco which is a higher rating than glyphosate.
> Well if I was to be worried about anything the above should do it as that ship sailed a long time ago.
> 
> Even when applying round up the levels of exposure are virtually non-existent for home use , heck even a child knows not to spray it on themselves.


... but, of course, one of the many companies that produce glyphosate is Monsanto so it MUST be evil.


----------



## ExpatWannabee

So, if I understand the logic that is being employed here, it goes something like this "I'm dumb enough to eat known carcinogens like bacon, red meat and other processed meats, so it's ok for me to use a carcinogenic pesticide as well. Or is it, "I haven't gotten cancer yet, so I guess I never will." Well, as I said before, best of luck with the chemo treatments.


----------



## Pazcat

Anorak | The Daily Mail’s List Of Things That Give You Cancer: From A To Z


----------



## jimenato

ExpatWannabee said:


> So, if I understand the logic that is being employed here, it goes something like this "I'm dumb enough to eat known carcinogens like bacon, red meat and other processed meats, so it's ok for me to use a carcinogenic pesticide as well. Or is it, "I haven't gotten cancer yet, so I guess I never will." Well, as I said before, best of luck with the chemo treatments.


You forgot being a hairdresser and doing shiftwork but yes you are about right. 

Apart from I have had cancer. 

Oh, and I didn't need chemo.


----------



## jimenato

Pazcat said:


> Anorak | The Daily Mail’s List Of Things That Give You Cancer: From A To Z


That's probably the same list as The Mail's list of foods that stop you getting cancer.


----------



## Pazcat

You mean this one?

Kill or cure?


----------



## el romeral

Thought I had better get down to the local plant shop to stock up on weed killer incase we are soon not able to. I bought my half litre of Glyfos with no problem which pleased me greatly. When I questioned the lady about the new laws, she said if I wanted to buy a litre bottle then I would need a licence. I then asked how many half litre bottles I could buy with no licence, she told me I could buy 10 or as many as I wanted!:rofl:


----------



## snikpoh

el romeral said:


> Thought I had better get down to the local plant shop to stock up on weed killer incase we are soon not able to. I bought my half litre of Glyfos with no problem which pleased me greatly. When I questioned the lady about the new laws, she said if I wanted to buy a litre bottle then I would need a licence. I then asked how many half litre bottles I could buy with no licence, she told me I could buy 10 or as many as I wanted!:rofl:


see post #23!


Just like in Uk where you can't buy more than 2 boxes of annadin/paracetemol etc. but you can buy as many as you want in separate transactions!


----------



## The Skipper

I appear to live in "cowboy country," a fairless lawless part of Spain where rules and regulations are routinely ignored. For example, the local Guardia frequent a local bar for almuerza each morning and two officers will share a bottle of wine before jumping back into their patrol car! Thankfully I can still buy Imidacloprid (for protection against the picudo rojo) and 5 litre containers of weed killer without question at the local agricultural wholesaler. I did wonder, by the way, why anyone would buy Monsanto's Round-Up to kill weeds. It's wickedly expensive and there are much cheaper and equally effective alternatives. I use a Spanish product, Agrofit, which is 18% Glifosata and 18% MCPA. A 2% solution in water kills every weed that grows on my land, including mature brambles, and it's substantially cheaper than Round-Up.


----------



## Pazcat

Well this is hardly surprising.

Glyphosate unlikely to pose risk to humans, UN/WHO study says | Environment | The Guardian

Still has nowt to do with the law in Spain but interesting nonetheless.


----------

