# Non Resident in Multiple Countries



## DesWalker (Mar 12, 2014)

Hi All,

My first post on this site and I'm hoping somebody will be able to help.

I am and always have been a UK Resident and have recently purchased a modest property in Spain where I am clearly registered as a Non-Resident. 

I am aware of the 3 month rule which says that if you spend more than three consecutive months in Spain then you are expected to register as a Resident (which I appreciate is not the same as a Tax Resident). I am also aware of the 183 day rule which says that you should register as a Tax Resident if you spend more than 183 days in the country in any calendar year. I am also aware that many people break these two rules or argue that nobody is checking so why worry about them. I fully understand this viewpoint but do not subscribe to it.

I have no intention of breaching either of these rules as I do not wish to become either Resident or Tax Resident in Spain. However, I don't want to spend too much of the time I am not allowed to be in Spain back in the UK. I do wish to remain a UK Resident at all times though.

So my question ...

Would it be possible for me to buy another modest place in Portugal, which I think has the same Residency rules as outlined above for Spain and then juggle my time between there, Spain and the UK in such a way that I never fall foul of any Residency rules in either Spain or Portugal and thus by default would retain my UK Residency even if I only spent a couple of months a year there ?

Has anyone heard of an ordinary man-in-the-street adopting this scenario to retain UK Residency but to spend as little time as possible there ? I know people talk of Perpetual Travellers who typically are very wealthy and aim to be Resident nowhere in order to avoid many forms of taxes, but this is not the case here. I'm just considering my options to try and find a way of spending 10 or so months of the year in the EU but outside the UK whilst retaining full UK Residency at all times.

Very many thanks for any replies. All advice gratefully received.

Cheers,

Des


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

DesWalker said:


> Would it be possible for me to buy another modest place in Portugal, which I think has the same Residency rules as outlined above for Spain and then juggle my time between there, Spain and the UK in such a way that I never fall foul of any Residency rules in either Spain or Portugal and thus by default would retain my UK Residency even if I only spent a couple of months a year there ?


Hi Des

In essence (as far as I'm concerned) the answer is yes you can.

Personally I wouldn't pay much mind to the 3 month rule. Technically, if you spend more than 3 months in Spain you should register at the town hall but to be honest there's very little (for you) to be gained from doing so.

The 6 month or 183 day or more rule however is somewhat different. If you spend more than 183 days a year in Spain either consecutive or cumulative you become _de facto_ a Spanish fiscal tax resident (whether you want it or like it or not) and you will be liable for Spanish taxation on worldwide income as well as having to declare any worldwide assets valued at more than €50,000.

You can however, as you suggest, spend less than 183 days a year in Spain without becoming a fiscal tax resident and likewise in Portugal.

Unfortunately, as far as the Hacienda (the Spanish version of the HMRC) is concerned the onus is on you to prove that you have not been resident in Spain for more than those 183 days. I would therefore strongly recommend you retain some form of paper trail (such as plane boarding passes) to prove your movements should you decide to avoid Spanish fiscal residency.

If you remain a UK resident (by not becoming resident anywhere else) you will still be UK domiciled and will still be liable for HMRC taxation even though you may spend less than 2 months of the year there. 

Unfortunately you have to pay tax somewhere and as you will be keeping your UK residency you will be considered UK domiciled and therefore pay UK taxes.


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## Aron (Apr 30, 2013)

DesWalker said:


> Hi All,
> 
> My first post on this site and I'm hoping somebody will be able to help.
> 
> ...


An ordinary man in the street can't afford such a scenario. He has a family to care for!


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## davexf (Jan 26, 2009)

Hola

Short answer is yes it is possible; BUT what you need is proper professional advice. Go to a financial advisor like Blevins Franks, and ask the question on how you achieve it. All decent financial advisors should be able to tell you how. 

Whether it is feasible for you may be a different matter. 

Davexf


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## DesWalker (Mar 12, 2014)

Hi Aron - fair enough, apologies for the poor choice of words. I was simply trying to get over the fact that I am far from wealthy as is usually the case with these Perpetual Travellers who wish to avoid virtually all taxes, but I agree that my situation is not typical. However, I did stress that my place in Spain is modest and that the same would be true of any place in Portugal. I am fortunate that my business can be carried out via the Internet and I simply want to do this in the sunshine as much as possible. That is all.

Hi zenkarma - many thanks for the comprehensive reply. It is precisely what I suspected was the case and hoped to hear from a third party such as yourself. But I would appreciate as many third party opinions as possible so am hoping for more replies to this thread. I am perfectly happy to continue paying my taxes in the UK and would also retain a modest property there too.

It is interesting that you say the three consecutive month rule is not such a big deal. I have spent the last two days trying to ascertain that this rule actually exists and that staying in Spain as a Non Resident beyond the three month point is actually breaking the law as some people have claimed that it is not. Now that I have established that it does exist then I would adhere to it for peace of mind. It would only mean leaving after three months and returning the next day should I so wish.

Any more replies gratefully received.

Des


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

DesWalker said:


> Hi Aron - fair enough, apologies for the poor choice of words. I was simply trying to get over the fact that I am far from wealthy as is usually the case with these Perpetual Travellers who wish to avoid virtually all taxes, but I agree that my situation is not typical. However, I did stress that my place in Spain is modest and that the same would be true of any place in Portugal. I am fortunate that my business can be carried out via the Internet and I simply want to do this in the sunshine as much as possible. That is all.
> 
> Hi zenkarma - many thanks for the comprehensive reply. It is precisely what I suspected was the case and hoped to hear from a third party such as yourself. But I would appreciate as many third party opinions as possible so am hoping for more replies to this thread. I am perfectly happy to continue paying my taxes in the UK and would also retain a modest property there too.
> 
> ...


OK, I'm not actually contributing anything to the thread, but I just wanted to say that wealth like poverty depends on where you start from. A person who owns two houses (possibly 3 if you have one in the UK and maybe you have one in Singapore too!!!) and will travel from country to country, has a great deal more money than I do and I would classify as wealthy
Next thing is, it may well be possible to do what you want to do, although I'd have thought there'll be someone tracking you down somewhere, not because they care where you're resident, but because they'll be after your money.
And finally, so you probably can do it, but why do you want to?


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## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

Healthcare would worry me, cos altho the EHIC card would cover you as a tourist for emergencies, what about long term, on going health issues??? You'd really need private cover

Jo xxx


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## DesWalker (Mar 12, 2014)

Hi PeskyWesky,

My reasoning is simple. My tax affairs are very efficient from a UK viewpoint, I understand the rules over there and finally I want to retain full access to both the NHS and retirement benefits irrespective of any future changes in government policy. I do not wish to put myself at the mercy of another European government's tax policy and opacity.

However, I'm sick of living in the UK for many reasons most notably the weather but also the media, political and social direction of the country. 

I am a long way from certain that this is the right route and indeed I first need to see how I get on with one foreign property in Spain for six months a year (in chunks of less than three months each). But if it proves to be a success and I find myself not wishing to return to the UK then rather than becoming a fully blown Tax Resident in Spain as many people choose I am just wondering whether my circumstances might be better suited as outlined in the original post.

As for the issue of whether one is wealthy or not, this isn't really the point of this thread. I am very well aware of just how fortunate I am, probably more than most. Inability to dispassionately play the ball rather than the man is one of the traits I'm looking to leave behind in the UK. 

Cheers

Des


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

DesWalker said:


> Hi PeskyWesky,
> 
> My reasoning is simple. My tax affairs are very efficient from a UK viewpoint, I understand the rules over there and finally I want to retain full access to both the NHS and retirement benefits irrespective of any future changes in government policy. I do not wish to put myself at the mercy of another European government's tax policy and opacity.
> 
> ...


OK!
I can understand that reasoning


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## DesWalker (Mar 12, 2014)

Hi Jojo,

Agreed, healthcare is a major consideration. Maybe 120 days of the year in each of Spain and Portugal (eight spells of 30 days in total) always as a Non-Resident relying on EHIC, travel insurance and the ability to get back to the NHS in a couple of hours via Ryanair would be too risky ? The remaining 125 days would be spent in the UK with full access to the NHS.

All sounds a bit convoluted I agree. I'm just thinking out loud right now, and I'm very determined to keep my Residency in the UK. Most likely outcome of all these ruminations will be just one foreign property in Spain and accepting more time in the UK than I would like, but we'll see ...

Thanks again,

Des


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## Goldeneye (Nov 12, 2011)

Thank you for bringing up this subject, I am in a similar situation, although for me it's more to do with future IHT..
We no longer wish to live in Canada, Spain's hefty IHT makes it somewhat prohibitive and are a cause for concern.. I think it would be disrespectful to parents memory to move to Spain and upon their death allow the Spanish Government to take a large chunk of their hard earned estate in taxes when the parents lived, worked and paid taxes in the UK.. Canada has zero IHT and the U.K. amount is pretty generous... 

I would be interested about how you plan to deal with Healthcare as it is residence based, I appreciate for 'tax purposes' you are wanting to keep the UK as your domicile, however If you were living predominately outside the UK as Jo Jo mentioned access to healthcare would be a concern !!


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

We had a thread on this recently. My general conclusion was that you probably could be a tax resident of nowhere by moving around far flung corners of the world, although you'd need to see a tax expert to ensure you don't accidentally break the rules (and potentially get hammered). However I think there may be rules to prevent you from doing this within EU countries. It's quite easy for someone who splits their time evenly between Spain and the UK to spend say a week on holiday in France and they've not met the residency requirements of either country for that year. It's highly likely there's some arrangement that states you must be a tax resident in one of those countries under those circumstances, and they'll probably take into account other factors to determine which.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

DesWalker said:


> Agreed, healthcare is a major consideration. Maybe 120 days of the year in each of Spain and Portugal (eight spells of 30 days in total) always as a Non-Resident relying on EHIC, travel insurance and the ability to get back to the NHS in a couple of hours via Ryanair would be too risky ? The remaining 125 days would be spent in the UK with full access to the NHS.


If healthcare is that much of a concern you could always take out private medical insurance which can be had for about £60 month. You'd have to take out private healthcare in any case if you were a Spanish resident not in receipt of a UK government state pension.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

Chopera said:


> My general conclusion was that you probably could be a tax resident of nowhere by moving around far flung corners of the world...


Probably unlikely. Unless you've rescinded your UK residency (which no-one in their right mind would do) and you've not become a resident of another country you would be by default UK domiciled and thus a UK tax payer.

Time spent in the country is only one aspect the HMRC looks at with regards to domicile and tax residency. If you have a home there, family, relations others ties etc getting out being liable for UK taxes would be particularly difficult.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

The only issue I can see is one of the countries trying to challenge your status. But legally you're just a tourist/vacationer.


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

DesWalker said:


> Hi zenkarma - many thanks for the comprehensive reply. It is precisely what I suspected was the case and hoped to hear from a third party such as yourself. But I would appreciate as many third party opinions as possible so am hoping for more replies to this thread.* I am perfectly happy to continue paying my taxes in the UK and would also retain a modest property there too.*
> Any more replies gratefully received.
> 
> Des





zenkarma said:


> Probably unlikely. Unless you've rescinded your UK residency (which no-one in their right mind would do) and you've not become a resident of another country you would be by default UK domiciled and thus a UK tax payer.
> 
> Time spent in the country is only one aspect the HMRC looks at with regards to domicile and tax residency. If you have a home there, family, relations others ties etc *getting out being liable for UK taxes would be particularly difficult*.


As far as I understand the OP is not trying to get out of being liable for paying tax. See above reply to you!
Also in a reply to my post he says he wants to pay taxes in the UK as that's where he understands the laws.
A little bizzare? Yes.
It's also not going to be cheap as he'll need to maintain 3 properties, all the travelling involved and private healthcare, but I suppose it depends on the wealth he's protecting...
Anyway the bottom line is if he does want to do this and pay his taxes the only way to know if it's a real possibility is to contact the tax authorities directly in each country, and not ask non experts on a forum. Look at post 26 in this thread for details of how to do this
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...one-oilfield-workers-spain-3.html#post3243785


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## Pesky Wesky (May 10, 2009)

NickZ said:


> The only issue I can see is one of the countries trying to challenge your status. But legally you're just a tourist/vacationer.


Not if you're working, surely?
See post 5


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Pesky Wesky said:


> Not if you're working, surely?
> See post 5


You mean he isn't a tourist? It's not unusual for tourist to work remotely a bit. Of course businessmen make business trips all the time. They aren't considered local workers. 

I still think there is a risk of some country challenging him but if he's willing to fight it'll just be the costs.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

Pesky Wesky said:


> As far as I understand the OP is not trying to get out of being liable for paying tax. See above reply to you!


Bear in mind my reply was to Chopera's post suggesting you '...could become a tax resident of nowhere...' and was not a direct reply to the OP.

I accept that the OP has already stated that he's happy to pay tax in the UK. Chopera suggested you could potentially not have to pay tax anywhere which is not as I understand how the law currently stands hence my clarification post, just in case others reading this thread think this might be a nice way of becoming a non tax payer!

As I mentioned previously—you have to pay tax somewhere and if you're originally domiciled in the UK and pay tax there you will have to come up with a pretty good reason to HMRC for why you should not continue to pay tax there. Length of time spent in the country (the UK) is only one factor taken into consideration. If you're spending 2 months or more in the UK a year (and are not a tax resident anywhere else) it's almost certain you will have to continue paying taxes there.

I do agree however with your suggestion that people should seek professional advice from a qualified person for clarification on these issues.


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## DesWalker (Mar 12, 2014)

Many thanks to all those making constructive comments about the legalities of the issue as presented and not guessing about my personal motivations. Much food for thought.

It's not something I will be considering for a couple of years and will stick with two properties (UK and Spain) for the time being. But it might be one possible if fairly unlikely option ...

Thanks again,

Des


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## fergie (Oct 4, 2010)

Take out world wide comprehensive health insurance, then you can holiday in many places around the world, it is costly, but if you say 'needed expensive emergency care' you would be covered wherever you are. As long as you declare your tax to UK if that is going to be your base, and live there for the required amount of time each year you should be OK.
Living in Spain does require you to declare your world wide taxes, which is very fair, if you come here to live, like we do, and enjoy Spain and it's people as well as the sun, then we support Spain's economy by willingly paying our world wide taxes, with the knock on effect that it will benefit the people of Spain, for living in this beautiful place.
There are people being caught out now who try to live here and dodge tax, and work on the black, it is no longer the fun in the sun haven many used to enjoy, in fact many are just waiting for that knock on the door, by police! and it does happen. Many expat/immigrants of working age are going back to their own countries, rather than avoid this happening, plus there is high unemployment among Spanish people who would if given an opportunity work and pay their taxes.
There are tax advisers here and gestors and solicitors who will help with complicated paper work involved if you did intend living here.
In the end there are no pockets in shrouds, so if you want to live anywhere, it is worth living with a peaceful mind, and pay the price for the place you choose to live.


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## DesWalker (Mar 12, 2014)

Thanks fergie, 

I agree that being legal is absolutely crucial. I would not consider anything that was illegal.

I admire people like yourself who make the change lock, stock and barrel and take the view that you'd rather pay taxes in your new country for its benefit rather than back to the UK.

Maybe in ten years I might take a similar view but for now I want to keep things simple and spend as little time as possible in the UK whilst retaining the majority of my assets and their taxation over there.

Just to add a little more colour, my Spanish place cost me €100k and I would only be looking to spend a similar sum on any Portuguese place. Now I'm sure there are many on here who have spent the full €200k (and probably far more) on a single place in Spain but for me dividing this €200k sum in two between two countries might be the better option. 

Extra costs in terms of property taxes, utilities, travel costs and maybe healthcare insurance too (although my initial thought would be to use EHIC + travel insurance as already described) but savings in terms of general income and asset taxation. 

Also remember one could theoretically own these two properties virtually within walking distance of each another !

Des


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

zenkarma said:


> Bear in mind my reply was to Chopera's post suggesting you '...could become a tax resident of nowhere...' and was not a direct reply to the OP.
> 
> I accept that the OP has already stated that he's happy to pay tax in the UK. Chopera suggested you could potentially not have to pay tax anywhere which is not as I understand how the law currently stands hence my clarification post, just in case others reading this thread think this might be a nice way of becoming a non tax payer!
> 
> ...


Yup my post slightly distracted this thread:

Here's the other thread I referred to, where we discussed the possibilities of not paying tax anywhere:

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...ain/353521-anyone-oilfield-workers-spain.html


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## fergie (Oct 4, 2010)

DesWalker said:


> Thanks fergie,
> 
> I agree that being legal is absolutely crucial. I would not consider anything that was illegal.
> 
> ...


Hi, yes you can own properties within 'walking distance' of each other, but they all have to be taxed, and any community charges paid to local councils, plus standing charges like electric and water no matter where they are in the EU.If you intend to ever rent out any of these places short term, in Spain definitely there are rules and regulations for short term landlords to adhere to, I don't know about Portugal's rules.
On this forum there are lots of 'threads' about landlords and renting which you can explore, if you intend to do that when you are not staying there.


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## leeski09 (Jun 27, 2012)

Hi Des,

I too understand the situation. Im actually declared not ordinarily resident in the UK since last year when i moved to Dubai briefly. Things didnt pan out there and at the same time i was granted residency in Chad, C. Africa where i work in the oil business. I work 1 month rotations and am too sick of the UK. I (we) are allowed 183 days max in any one tax year in UK before having a tax liability and over 4 consecutive years you must average 91 days or less per year. So my circs are ideal, as may be yours. I have 61/2 months at work, Chadian taxes pain (but no dual taxation agreement with UK or Spain), I get to visit the UK for up to 3 months of the year and live in Spain as a non resident for the other 3. Thats before other holidays are factored in. So don't listen to many responses that suggest that you have to pay tax somewhere. Sometimes circumstances just permit that you dont have to and fair play to anyone that is lucky to be in that situation. Many mates and colleagues in the Oil & Gas industry worldwide have not legitimately had to pay a penny for several years. Portugal has a great tax relief for expats - a very similar 183 rule and a '10 year tax free holiday' as they put it in an article i read recently. Im now looking to move to the Marbella area and will be in Spain in 4 weeks time looking at property. Rental first but long game is to buy next year. I have had some good financial advice on the matter and all appears fine. Just have someone qualified tell you the score and then perhaps double check it / get a 2nd opinion, just to protect yourself. Hope all works out mate. Ole ole ole.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

leeski09 said:


> ...i was granted residency in Chad...


So you're a Chad resident?



leeski09 said:


> ...Chadian taxes pain (but no dual taxation agreement with UK or Spain)...


So you pay taxes in Chad? Hard to tell from this to be honest.



leeski09 said:


> ...So don't listen to many responses that suggest that you have to pay tax somewhere.


So what's this fluff about then if you're resident in Chad and pay taxes in Chad?

You don't live anywhere else long enough to be considered a tax resident.

You also missed out that if you're not a UK resident for tax, or considered a UK resident at all you're not entitled to any UK healthcare either.


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## leeski09 (Jun 27, 2012)

zenkarma said:


> So you're a Chad resident?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fluff? Just trying to of some help to the OP. Since there are more than one incorrect suggestions already in the thread. It always needs to be verified that the country that you work and pay tax has or hasn't got a dual taxation agreement with you home or chosen country of residence, if indeed you were to fall into the bracket or choose to be a tax resident. As for healthcare, I always have opted for the best private global cover i can get. Hope the OP has all the facts.


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## Chopera (Apr 22, 2013)

leeski09 said:


> Fluff? Just trying to of some help to the OP. Since there are more than one incorrect suggestions already in the thread. It always needs to be verified that the country that you work and pay tax has or hasn't got a dual taxation agreement with you home or chosen country of residence, if indeed you were to fall into the bracket or choose to be a tax resident. As for healthcare, I always have opted for the best private global cover i can get. Hope the OP has all the facts.


Yes I can't imagine the NHS helping very much if you're based in Chad


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

leeski09 said:


> Fluff? Just trying to of some help to the OP. Since there are more than one incorrect suggestions already in the thread. It always needs to be verified that the country that you work and pay tax has or hasn't got a dual taxation agreement with you home or chosen country of residence, if indeed you were to fall into the bracket or choose to be a tax resident.


I still don't really understand the point you're trying to make here but perhaps it's just me? Perhaps I'm simply too 'dimwitted' to understand you.

You previously stated:



leeski09 said:


> So don't listen to many responses that suggest that you have to pay tax somewhere.


Which infers that my previous comment that you have to pay tax somewhere is incorrect.

As I stated previously in this thread, as far as the HMRC are concerned if you are a UK Citizen and have been considered UK domiciled, unless you can prove to them otherwise (in other words that you are a resident or a tax resident somewhere else) you will continue to be liable for UK taxes, regardless of the amount of time you actually spend in the country.

Your point with regards to double taxation agreements is irrelevant.

You have to pay tax somewhere and that somewhere will normally be where you're considered domiciled.


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## EuroTrash (Sep 3, 2013)

To get back the OP's original question, whether or not he can continue to be classed as tax resident in the UK could maybe be determined by the new UK residence rules introduced last year. They have tried to simplify things and there is now a 'test' that you take - basically there is a list of factors, and depending on how many days you spend in the UK and how many qualifying factors you tick off, you either are or are not classed as a leaver. Suggest you do the 'test' and then you'll know where you stand.
Google something like 'new UK statutory residence test', a quick google brought up this site but you might find a clearer one
http://www.wfw.com/Publications/Publication1326/$File/WFW-StatutoryResidenceTest-Briefing-Sept-2013.pdf


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

leeski09 said:


> It always needs to be verified that the country that you work and pay tax has or hasn't got a dual taxation agreement with you home or chosen country of residence, if indeed you were to fall into the bracket or choose to be a tax resident. .


Can I ask what you think the lack of a treaty means?

1) You aren't covered by the tie breaker article

2) You aren't covered by clause protecting against double taxation.

This is what you mean right?


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