# Us citizen born in spain, can i get a spanish passport?



## alejandroG (Dec 13, 2013)

New member here. I am seeking information on whether or not I can obtain a Spanish passport. I was born in Spain to American parents and moved back to the US as a small child. I have both an American and a Spanish birth certificate. I would like to travel extensively in the EU and as American it would be easier on a Spanish passport. Do I have any chance of getting a Spanish passport without having lived in the country, based purely on the fact that I was born there?


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2013)

On what basis where your parents in the country? What visa did they have or is one of them also Spanish?


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

You are probably not a Spanish citizen today according to current Spanish nationality law. However, since you were born in Spain you have a fast path to acquire Spanish citizenship if you wish (and if you are able). You must legally reside in Spain for at least one year, whereupon you can apply for naturalization as a citizen of Spain.


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

Note that Spain recently introduced a "homestead" program for foreigners, and that's one straightforward way to reside legally in Spain. It's not cheap, though. You have to buy a home in Spain of a certain minimum value -- I've seen reports of 500,000 euro minimum -- and you are not permitted to work in Spain. While you'll probably get most of your money back if/when you sell the home (though that's not guaranteed), there's still a major financial commitment involved if you want to take advantage of that foreign residence program in Spain.

A student visa might be another possible avenue to explore, but be careful. Some European countries (e.g. Italy) don't count student visa time as residence time for purposes of naturalization, EC Long Term Residence Permits, and so on. You'll have to research Spain's naturalization rules carefully. However, the short one year residence requirement for individuals born in Spain is clear, and that's a big break. Many/most foreigners have to reside in Spain for 10 years before they can naturalize. A 12 month wait is practically an extended vacation and very doable for many people.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

BBCWatcher said:


> Note that Spain recently introduced a "homestead" program for foreigners, and that's one straightforward way to reside legally in Spain. It's not cheap, though. You have to buy a home in Spain of a certain minimum value -- I've seen reports of 500,000 euro minimum -- and you are not permitted to work in Spain. While you'll probably get most of your money back if/when you sell the home (though that's not guaranteed), there's still a major financial commitment involved if you want to take advantage of that foreign residence program in Spain.
> 
> A student visa might be another possible avenue to explore, but be careful. Some European countries (e.g. Italy) don't count student visa time as residence time for purposes of naturalization, EC Long Term Residence Permits, and so on. You'll have to research Spain's naturalization rules carefully. However, the short one year residence requirement for individuals born in Spain is clear, and that's a big break. Many/most foreigners have to reside in Spain for 10 years before they can naturalize. A 12 month wait is practically an extended vacation and very doable for many people.


yes it is 500,000 euros - & it has to be mortgage/loan free

also, it doesn't give _permanent _residence - just a year (maybe 2??, not sure) & renewal isn't guaranteed


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

That program offers a one year visa initially. Renewals are for two years (if granted). Spain grants EC Long Term Residence Permits to qualified applicants who clock 5 years of continuous legal residence (for those who are not in the original poster's position of being eligible for speedy naturalization).


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## lebesset (Dec 4, 2011)

I think you are going to be unlucky , but with careful planning you could easily spend a year in europe if touring around 
the schengen area allows you to stay for 3 months in a 6 month period but fortunately they seem to allow you to cheat a little ...a friend of mine regularly stays 4-5 months and has just had his knuckles rapped a couple of times ...it depends if they think you have been working 

however the UK is much more welcoming , up to 6 months , ireland is also outside the schengen area as are some of the old eastern block countries ; combined with some time in morocco in the depths of winter it would be very easy to spend a year seeing the sights and soaking up the culture


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

That would not count as one year's legal residence in Spain, surely?


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## lebesset (Dec 4, 2011)

Nononymous said:


> That would not count as one year's legal residence in Spain, surely?



what wouldn't ?


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

lebesset said:


> what wouldn't ?


European country-hopping for a year...


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

It would not, and I don't know why that suggestion was offered here.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

alejandroG said:


> Do I have any chance of getting a Spanish passport without having lived in the country, based purely on the fact that I was born there?


It sounds like you can become a Spanish Citizen and gain a Spanish passport based on your having been born in Spain.

However, please bear in mind that Spain does NOT recognise dual nationality. As part of the process of becoming a Spanish Citizen you would have to renounce and give up your American Citizenship.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Have you contacted your local consulate? They are going to know a lot more than we will. Bring your Spanish birth certificate with you.


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## lebesset (Dec 4, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> European country-hopping for a year...


if you read the original post he doesn't want to become a legal resident in spain , he just wanted a spanish passport to make travel in the EU easier


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

lebesset said:


> if you read the original post he doesn't want to become a legal resident in spain , he just wanted a spanish passport to make travel in the EU easier


perhaps - but he can't get a Spanish passport without being legally resident first

& the title of the thread does ask about the passport

if all he really wants is to travel then your suggestion could indeed work with careful planning


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## elisa31bcn (Jan 23, 2013)

By the way, you don't have to renounce your American citizenship if you get a Spanish passport. There is a question that you must answer saying that you will, but actually renouncing your American citizenship has to be done officially with the United States. My sister, and all her children, as well as many friends here have both passports with no problems.I intend to apply for mine soon through marriage.


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2013)

No problems but assuming they have not told the Spanish authorities. Surely if you sign to say you wil/have and dont it would make the Spanish citizenship invalid?


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

elisa31bcn said:


> By the way, you don't have to renounce your American citizenship if you get a Spanish passport.


Yes you do. 

Please stop giving people incorrect information. What you're doing here is actively encouraging someone to be deceitful and lie to the Spanish Authorities.

Spain *DOES NOT ALLOW* dual nationality. <-- What part of that sentence do you not appear to understand?


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

zenkarma said:


> Yes you do.
> 
> Please stop giving people incorrect information. What you're doing here is actively encouraging someone to be deceitful and lie to the Spanish Authorities.
> 
> *Spain DOES NOT ALLOW dual nationality. <-- What part of that sentence do you not appear to understand?*


The fact that it's a common practice and that, sometimes, the very same authorities are the ones telling you how to bend the rules.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

No ,Spain does not RECOGNISE dual nationality. There is a difference. You can have as many passports as you want but to the Spaniards you will be Spanish.

If the Spanish authorities were concerned about people retaining there U.S. citizenship then they would insist that the person concerned renounced his citizenship in the correct & only way ;

1. appear in person before a U.S. consular or diplomatic officer,
2. in a foreign country (normally at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate); and
3. sign an oath of renunciation


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## Brangus (May 1, 2010)

gus-lopez said:


> No ,Spain does not RECOGNISE dual nationality. There is a difference. You can have as many passports as you want but to the Spaniards you will be Spanish.


Just to clarify: It depends on the nationality. Spain recognizes dual citizenship for Latin Americans and some others -- including Puerto Ricans, from the info below.

Tener la doble nacionalidad - Ministerio de Justicia

_No es necesario que renuncien a su nacionalidad quienes fueran naturales de países iberoamericanos, de Andorra, Filipinas, Guinea Ecuatorial o Portugal. Se consideran países iberoamericanos a estos efectos aquéllos en los que el español o el portugués sean una de las lenguas oficiales.

A efectos de adquirir la doble nacionalidad Haití, Jamaica, Trinidad y Tobago y Guyana no se consideran iberoamericanos mientras que Puerto Rico sí se considera iberoamericano._


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

gus-lopez said:


> No ,Spain does not RECOGNISE dual nationality.


The Spanish Authorities request that you have or intend to give up your current citizenship when you apply for Spanish citizenship. If you say yes and then don't you're lying and and can have your Spanish citizenship revoked.

The USA doesn't recognise dual nationality either by the way and I suspect that Americans who take up Spanish citizenship could have their American citizenship's revoked in the same way.

That's the risk you take when you lie. But then the world is full of lying, deceitful, immoral people who like to cheat the system.

Personally speaking I hope that they get what's coming to them.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

If you are going to make such drastic statements, get your facts right first please. 


"_A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth. *U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another.* Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. *In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship. *

Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct.*The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. *Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist citizens abroad. The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person's allegiance. _"

Source: Dual Nationality

It is very, very hard to give up or lose US citizenship. You've basically got to be Edward Snowden to get it taken away.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

elenetxu said:


> The fact that it's a common practice and that, sometimes, the very same authorities are the ones telling you how to bend the rules.


exactly - Spain doesn't recognise it - & you can agree to renounce your US - or in my case British citizenship, & they will send your passport off to the consulate


& in the case of the British consulate.................... they will simply return it to you


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

zenkarma said:


> The Spanish Authorities request that you have or intend to give up your current citizenship when you apply for Spanish citizenship. If you say yes and then don't you're lying and and can have your Spanish citizenship revoked.
> 
> The USA doesn't recognise dual nationality either by the way and I suspect that Americans who take up Spanish citizenship could have their American citizenship's revoked in the same way.
> 
> ...


who's to say you're lying - it could well be your true intention to renounce

the fact that the country of your original citizenship doesn't allow you to renounce easily , or recognise your renunciation is hardly your fault


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

You can be completely truthful by signing the Spanish statement and then appearing at a U.S. embassy or consulate -- I'm assuming U.S. citizenship here -- saying, "The Spanish government requires me to make an appearance here...." and nothing material more. The U.S. consular officer will then wish you a nice day and send you home.

By the way, Edward Snowden is and remains a U.S. citizen.


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## elisa31bcn (Jan 23, 2013)

Wow, let me get this straight. People who have both American and Spanish passports are lying, cheating, immoral people. I would make a comment, but it's too ludicrous to even respond.


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## zenkarma (Feb 15, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> who's to say you're lying - it could well be your true intention to renounce


If you reread what I wrote you will see the words '...if you say yes and then don't...'.

I don't know what you would term that as but from my perspective it's a lie.



xabiachica said:


> the fact that the country of your original citizenship doesn't allow you to renounce easily , or recognise your renunciation is hardly your fault


There's a straight forward process to renounce UK citizenship. It's neither difficult, obscure or hard to do. Not only can you easily renounce UK citizenship you can reapply for it to be reinstated. So there's hardly any excuse for not doing so.

The reality of course is that no-one want's to renounce their original citizenship, despite the fact that Spain does not allow dual citizenship. They want to cheat the system and lie to do it.

There's no defence for this I'm afraid. The world is sadly full of cheats and liars always looking to get an advantage over everyone else and bypass rules they don't think apply to them.


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

You're way off base, Zenkarma.

First of all, Spain does allow dual citizenship, explicitly (in the case of many Latin American countries) and implicitly through operation of Spanish citizenship law. Like many countries, though -- even some in Europe such as Norway and Latvia -- Spain expects that individuals naturalizing as citizens of Spain make an attempt to renounce their other citizenship(s). Spain cannot determine who the United States (for example) deems its citizens, and (correctly) Spanish citizenship is not contingent on the citizenship decisions of other governments.

OK, so there's a procedure to follow Spain's law to the letter. If you are a U.S. citizen you show up at the U.S. embassy or consulate and...tell the truth! "The Spanish government requires me to appear before you..." And keep repeating the truth and nothing but the truth.

....Whereupon you'll be escorted out the door with both citizenships intact.

Lie, cheat? No. Tell the truth! As it happens, the truth will be unacceptable to the United States government for purposes of renouncing U.S. citizenship. Which is, of course, the sole responsibility of the U.S. government.

If that personally bothers you, OK, but that's your problem.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

BBCWatcher said:


> By the way, Edward Snowden is and remains a U.S. citizen.


Didn't they revoke his passport?


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2013)

Cancelling someone's passport doesnt cancel citizenship. Just removes their ability to travel overseas. Plenty of people never apply for passports but are still citizens of their country.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

_shel said:


> Cancelling someone's passport doesnt cancel citizenship. Just removes their ability to travel overseas. Plenty of people never apply for passports but are still citizens of their country.


Ok. That should be one step further to showing just how tough it is to lose citizenship.


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

BBCWatcher said:


> OK, so there's a procedure to follow Spain's law to the letter. If you are a U.S. citizen you show up at the U.S. embassy or consulate and...tell the truth! "The Spanish government requires me to appear before you..." And keep repeating the truth and nothing but the truth.
> 
> ....Whereupon you'll be escorted out the door with both citizenships intact.
> 
> Lie, cheat? No. Tell the truth! As it happens, the truth will be unacceptable to the United States government for purposes of renouncing U.S. citizenship. Which is, of course, the sole responsibility of the U.S. government.


Just so. I have an American friend who took Spanish citizenship, and this is exactly what happened. In fact when she went to the US Embassy she _wanted_ to renounce her US citizenship because she had no ties there and didn't want to continue to be liable for paying US income tax. But it turns out it is not at all an easy task to renounce US citizenship. There are many steps and it brings with it fiscal/tax complications that would require her to get a lawyer. The Embassy strongly advised her not to go through with it, and so she didn't.


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## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

additionally revocation of US citizenship is irrevocable ! Once done you cannot get it back .
The only way would be as an alien applying from another country & required to comply with all the requirements . The fact that you were born there ,have family ,parent's , children , etc; would not come in to it. 
Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship

I like the bit that ' renunciation of U.S. citizenship may have no affect whatsoever on his or her U.S. tax or military service obligations '. 
So you aren't an American any more but you can still be drafted ?? :lol:


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

In a national emergency all able bodied (and even non-able bodied) individuals can be drafted. A foreign citizenship hasn't always or even frequently been disqualifying.

The U.S. has drafted some non-citizens in past wars, and the U.S. is hardly alone in having done so.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

zenkarma said:


> The Spanish Authorities request that you have or intend to give up your current citizenship when you apply for Spanish citizenship. If you say yes and then don't you're lying and and can have your Spanish citizenship revoked.
> 
> The USA doesn't recognise dual nationality either by the way and I suspect that Americans who take up Spanish citizenship could have their American citizenship's revoked in the same way.
> 
> ...


Factual errors aside, this is a very strange point of view. 

Various countries' national citizenship and residency laws intersect in strange and sometimes inconsistent ways; common practices often diverge from a strict reading of one or both sets of laws, since you sometimes can't satisfy both. Particularly in a world of greater mobility with the possibility of remote work, something relatively new that the current legal framework may not readily accommodate.

In other words, people who want mobility will make practical accommodations to obtain citizenship or residency. This is how life works. It's scarcely "cheating", nor are they "lying, deceitful, immoral." When you say you hope they get what's coming to them, I can only assume that you refer to eternal damnation in the fires of hell.


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## lebesset (Dec 4, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> perhaps - but he can't get a Spanish passport without being legally resident first
> 
> & the title of the thread does ask about the passport
> 
> if all he really wants is to travel then your suggestion could indeed work with careful planning


lots of misinformation crept into this thread

OP specifically states the reason for wanting the passport for easing travel in the EU ..nothing else ; he doesn't even say he wants to visit spain , although I presume he would do so

he can't get a passport without being legally resident first ? not only incorrect but you can get a spanish passport if you have never BEEN to spain if you meet the conditions eg spanish parents , adopted by spanish parents , spanish grandparents etc ; clearly OP doesn't meet these conditions which is why I said he would be out of luck and suggested a way he could make his voyage of exploration

dual citizenship not allowed in spain except in certain connected countries where they have special agreements ? this is purely a technical matter , when you get a spanish passport you have to agree to accept that you are no longer claim to be a citizen elsewhere , even if you are ; the reason for this is basically that if you get into trouble in spain you no longer have a get out of claiming that you are a citizen of another country , you are on record as stating you no longer have that right


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

lebesset said:


> lots of misinformation crept into this thread
> 
> OP specifically states the reason for wanting the passport for easing travel in the EU ..nothing else ; he doesn't even say he wants to visit spain , although I presume he would do so
> 
> ...



you're just repeating everything which has already been stated on this thread

& my post which you quote is *correct for the OP* - that's who it is referring to


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

BBCWatcher said:


> The U.S. has drafted some non-citizens in past wars, and the U.S. is hardly alone in having done so.


I guess draft is the PC term. Canadians even on short term work assignments in the US during the Vietnam war faced press gangs. When you consider the number of American draft dodgers living in Canada there was a certain :scared: to it.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Nononymous said:


> Factual errors aside, this is a very strange point of view.
> 
> Various countries' national citizenship and residency laws intersect in strange and sometimes inconsistent ways; common practices often diverge from a strict reading of one or both sets of laws, since you sometimes can't satisfy both. Particularly in a world of greater mobility with the possibility of remote work, something relatively new that the current legal framework may not readily accommodate.
> 
> In other words, people who want mobility will make practical accommodations to obtain citizenship or residency. This is how life works. It's scarcely "cheating", nor are they "lying, deceitful, immoral." When you say you hope they get what's coming to them, I can only assume that you refer to eternal damnation in the fires of hell.


You seriously believe this? That intentionally violating one of the more fundamental laws of a country isn't even cheating? Remind me to never sign a contract with you.

BTW every country has the right to set it's own citizenship law. There is no intersection between the various countries. The only thing that governs Spain is Spanish law. Ignoring the EU courts. If you can't satisfy Spanish law you don't get the privileges it provides.

What you offer the Spanish state is complying with the rules. Spain in return provides you the rights of a citizen.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

This one appears to hang on the definition of "complying with the rules" - which is apparently open to interpretation.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Nononymous said:


> This one appears to hang on the definition of "complying with the rules" - which is apparently open to interpretation.


Spanish funcionarios are well known for interpreting rules as they see fit


maybe it's contagious............


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## alejandroG (Dec 13, 2013)

I appreciate all of the responses to my my question. To clarify, my intention is not to cheat the system. It appears that to follow the law I would have to establish residency in Spain since I do not qualify under any of the other scenarios. Merely being born within the borders of Spain is not enough. I own and live aboard a sailboat and was hoping to be able to cruise throughout Europe without having to deal with Shengan limitations.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

alejandroG said:


> I appreciate all of the responses to my my question. To clarify, my intention is not to cheat the system. It appears that to follow the law I would have to establish residency in Spain since I do not qualify under any of the other scenarios. Merely being born within the borders of Spain is not enough. I own and live aboard a sailboat and was hoping to be able to cruise throughout Europe without having to deal with Shengan limitations.



Despite everything that's been said in this thread, I am *not sure* that the above is true. Your absolute best bet would be to speak with your local consulate. If you're not sure who you should contact, PM me with what state you're a resident of and I can help.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

elenetxu said:


> Despite everything that's been said in this thread, I am *not sure* that the above is true. Your absolute best bet would be to speak with your local consulate. If you're not sure who you should contact, PM me with what state you're a resident of and I can help.


I'm about 99.9% sure that just being born in Spain of foreign parents wouldn't give him any rights to Spanish nationality, without living here for a year first

the govt link I put on the FAQs is broken - I'll see if I can find the new one later - but here's the wiki info

Spanish nationality law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I agree though, that the local/nearest Spanish consulate is the best place to start


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> I'm about 99.9% sure that just being born in Spain of foreign parents wouldn't give him any rights to Spanish nationality, without living here for a year first
> 
> the govt link I put on the FAQs is broken - I'll see if I can find the new one later - but here's the wiki info
> 
> ...


I meant it with all respect for your info (and you!). Things have changed so much in the last few years...


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

It occurs to me, would the whole Schengen thing even apply if you were sailing round the Mediterranean in your own boat?


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## alejandroG (Dec 13, 2013)

Well, I heard back from the Spanish Consulate. 1 year of residency is required to qualify for a Spanish Passport. My birth in Spain to American parents gets me nothing in their eyes. 
Schengan rules absolutely apply to cruising sailors in Europe. I can legally leave the boat there for longer periods of time but I must leave after 90 days, and cannot return for 90 more days. That would force me to leave my boat unattended for 90 days. The only other option is to sail across the med to a non-Schengen country every 3 months. Seems silly.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

alejandroG said:


> Well, I heard back from the Spanish Consulate. 1 year of residency is required to qualify for a Spanish Passport. My birth in Spain to American parents gets me nothing in their eyes.
> Schengan rules absolutely apply to cruising sailors in Europe. I can legally leave the boat there for longer periods of time but I must leave after 90 days, and cannot return for 90 more days. That would force me to leave my boat unattended for 90 days. The only other option is to sail across the med to a non-Schengen country every 3 months. Seems silly.


as we suspected then


if it makes you feel any better, it would be at least as difficult for most EU citizens to get even residency, let alone nationality, in the US - or even to have an extended holiday there - although I believe being born there is automatic citizenship?


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## alejandroG (Dec 13, 2013)

xabiachica said:


> as we suspected then
> 
> 
> if it makes you feel any better, it would be at least as difficult for most EU citizens to get even residency, let alone nationality, in the US - or even to have an extended holiday there - although I believe being born there is automatic citizenship?


Fair enough.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

alejandroG said:


> Well, I heard back from the Spanish Consulate. 1 year of residency is required to qualify for a Spanish Passport. My birth in Spain to American parents gets me nothing in their eyes.
> Schengan rules absolutely apply to cruising sailors in Europe. I can legally leave the boat there for longer periods of time but I must leave after 90 days, and cannot return for 90 more days. That would force me to leave my boat unattended for 90 days. The only other option is to sail across the med to a non-Schengen country every 3 months. Seems silly.


Actually that's not nothing. One year of residency for citizenship is a hell of a good deal. My daughter was born in Germany and it entitles her to... absolutely nothing at all. Period.

As for playing tourist for a year, or cruising about in your sailboat, what people seem to forget is that the 90 day rule is the default if you simply show up in Europe, but you can apply for an extended stay visa if you have a convincing reason and means to support yourself. My experience is with Germany, but the general rule is basically the same. If you have money and health insurance, a valid purpose (a language course, research, plans to write a book or paint, a desire to travel extensively, etc.) and a return ticket, then you go and ask for a long-stay visa. If you are halfway convincing, you get it. You're not allowed to work, but you don't have to do Schengen runs either.


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## alejandroG (Dec 13, 2013)

Nononymous said:


> Actually that's not nothing. One year of residency for citizenship is a hell of a good deal. My daughter was born in Germany and it entitles her to... absolutely nothing at all. Period.
> 
> As for playing tourist for a year, or cruising about in your sailboat, what people seem to forget is that the 90 day rule is the default if you simply show up in Europe, but you can apply for an extended stay visa if you have a convincing reason and means to support yourself. My experience is with Germany, but the general rule is basically the same. If you have money and health insurance, a valid purpose (a language course, research, plans to write a book or paint, a desire to travel extensively, etc.) and a return ticket, then you go and ask for a long-stay visa. If you are halfway convincing, you get it. You're not allowed to work, but you don't have to do Schengen runs either.


Interesting thought. I will investigate this option. Thanks.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

alejandroG said:


> Interesting thought. I will investigate this option. Thanks.


Go to the consulate, explain the situation, point that you were born there and (presumably) speak the language, make it abundantly clear that you intend to return to the US after one year, prove that you have money in the bank, and ask very politely if you might be granted a long-stay visa so that you can sail round the Med using Spain as your base. 

Can't hurt to try.

(I'm possibly more familiar with these scenarios because we've come to Germany for anywhere from 3 months to 2+ years, as Canadians, but have never tried to settle. Germany is also probably easier to deal with than Spain, but I expect the principles aren't that different.)


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Nononymous said:


> Actually that's not nothing. *One year of residency for citizenship is a hell of a good deal.* My daughter was born in Germany and it entitles her to... absolutely nothing at all. Period.
> 
> As for playing tourist for a year, or cruising about in your sailboat, what people seem to forget is that the 90 day rule is the default if you simply show up in Europe, but you can apply for an extended stay visa if you have a convincing reason and means to support yourself. My experience is with Germany, but the general rule is basically the same. If you have money and health insurance, a valid purpose (a language course, research, plans to write a book or paint, a desire to travel extensively, etc.) and a return ticket, then you go and ask for a long-stay visa. If you are halfway convincing, you get it. You're not allowed to work, but you don't have to do Schengen runs either.



that's a good point actually

we've lived here for 10 years & can only now apply for citizenship


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

Careful. Visas are national in the Schengen Area, and so are minimum residency requirements for citizenship. If, for example, Germany issues you a one year visa, that visa gives you the right to live in Germany for one year (subject to the terms of the visa), not to head over to, say, Austria for 322 days. (Short visits to other Schengen Area countries are OK, per normal tourist conditions.) There is no "pan Schengen superpass" until you obtain either an EC Long Term Residence Permit or an EEA citizenship (or Swiss citizenship). And the EC Long Term Residence Permit has a couple exceptions, notably Denmark.

So if the plan is to get Spanish citizenship then you must become a legal continuous resident of Spain and park yourself there, provably, for at least one year. Which is a heck of a lot better than 10 years -- you got a 90% discount on that offer simply because your mother delivered you in Spain. (Be sure to thank your mother for that great deal if she's still around.)

I've described one way you can get residence in Spain: the new "homestead" program. There may be others depending on your circumstances and interests. But it's Spain and only Spain offering you this deal. If Slovakia (for example) issues you a visa that's lovely, but it wouldn't help you reside in Spain to acquire Spanish citizenship.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

Purely on the tourism question (not the residency and citizenship issues, which are a separate matter):

Is it no longer possible for Americans/Canadians of sufficient means to enjoy a one-year grand tour of the Schengen countries, a few months here, a few months there, spreading their wealth along the way?

Surely there must be some well-off retirees doing this, legally or otherwise. They are not staying anywhere long enough to take up residence, and they are spending their money instead of working. From an economic standpoint, this should be encouraged.


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## alejandroG (Dec 13, 2013)

Nononymous said:


> Purely on the tourism question (not the residency and citizenship issues, which are a separate matter):
> 
> Is it no longer possible for Americans/Canadians of sufficient means to enjoy a one-year grand tour of the Schengen countries, a few months here, a few months there, spreading their wealth along the way?
> 
> Surely there must be some well-off retirees doing this, legally or otherwise. They are not staying anywhere long enough to take up residence, and they are spending their money instead of working. From an economic standpoint, this should be encouraged.


That's what I was thinking. I cant see why they would not want people of means to contribute to the local economies.


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

Nononymous said:


> Is it no longer possible for Americans/Canadians of sufficient means to enjoy a one-year grand tour of the Schengen countries, a few months here, a few months there, spreading their wealth along the way?


No, not really.

The closest match to that pattern is probably Italy's Elective Residency visa, though Malta might possibly work as an alternate residency base under their recently introduced program. For the Italian ER visa you need to demonstrate: (1) a serious intention to reside in Italy for at least a year (selling your house, arranging a lease in Italy, etc.), (2) €30,000 per person per annum in legal passive income minimum (often more), (3) health insurance, and (4) a clean criminal record. Once you're in Italy on an ER visa you have residence in Italy, and you can take short trips elsewhere in the Schengen Area. But Italy remains your base, and you will/must return to your home in Italy between your short trips.

Another popular option for citizens from visa waiver countries is this sort of itinerary:

1. Schengen Area for the maximum 90 days;
2. The U.K. for the maximum 6 months;
3. Schengen Area again for the maximum 90 days.

That's the simplest variation, but there are of course others. Note that the best you can do is 50% of your time spent in the Schengen Area with such approaches.

No, there is no "hop around the Schengen Area arbitrarily" one year visa. There's no "hop around the U.S. on a long vacation" visa either, as it happens.


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## lebesset (Dec 4, 2011)

alejandroG said:


> Well, I heard back from the Spanish Consulate. 1 year of residency is required to qualify for a Spanish Passport. My birth in Spain to American parents gets me nothing in their eyes.
> Schengan rules absolutely apply to cruising sailors in Europe. I can legally leave the boat there for longer periods of time but I must leave after 90 days, and cannot return for 90 more days. That would force me to leave my boat unattended for 90 days. The only other option is to sail across the med to a non-Schengen country every 3 months. Seems silly.


couple of points ..it doesn't have to be 90 days continuous , it's any 90 days in 180 , you can split it up

also how about 90 days schengen [ maybe n.france /benelux ...could you go up the rhine to germany ? ] 
then 90 days sailing around great britain / ireland norway perhaps? 
then south to spain /s.france/italy 90 days 
then turkey /n,africa


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## alejandroG (Dec 13, 2013)

lebesset said:


> couple of points ..it doesn't have to be 90 days continuous , it's any 90 days in 180 , you can split it up
> 
> also how about 90 days schengen [ maybe n.france /benelux ...could you go up the rhine to germany ? ]
> then 90 days sailing around great britain / ireland norway perhaps?
> ...


That is a possibility, but not necessarily a practical one. Weather patterns/seasons make it a little bit difficult logistically to bounce around that much. It is possible, but not the most efficient use of time or fuel for that matter. Bashing my way to windward for days at a time to reach a non Schengen place in the bitter cold is not why I choose to go sailing.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

There are indeed many possible itineraries that take you in and out of Schengen, and elective residency options - for a price - in various countries. That's not really the point. 

I simply find it strange that a sufficiently wealthy person from a visa waiver country would be so actively prevented from playing tourist and spending their money for more than 90 days. 

Which is why it might be worth inquiring about a long-stay visa on some halfway spurious grounds. Here I am, US citizen, house in the US and a return ticket, with $50k in the bank, and the idea that I would like to spend a year researching seabirds of the Mediterranean for a novel I wish to write. Or whatever.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

alejandroG said:


> That is a possibility, but not necessarily a practical one. Weather patterns/seasons make it a little bit difficult logistically to bounce around that much. It is possible, but not the most efficient use of time or fuel for that matter. Bashing my way to windward for days at a time to reach a non Schengen place in the bitter cold is not why I choose to go sailing.


Can you not simply bob about in the middle of the Mediterranean and claim to be in international waters?


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## alejandroG (Dec 13, 2013)

Nononymous said:


> Can you not simply bob about in the middle of the Mediterranean and claim to be in international waters?


Unfortunately there is no immigration official out there to stamp your passport and provide you with a Zarpe (official outbound clearance form)!


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

I'd expect the harbour master to handle everything. Not that anybody stamps passports today .


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

....Or park yourself in Spain for a mere 12 months and _*spend the rest of your life*_ (and maybe even the lives of descendants, depending on the ages of your children) darting around the EEA as much or as little as you (and your descendants) wish.

With respect to the idea that there ought to be a long-term or permanent Schengen-wide visa for rich people to spend money in Europe, must every public policy decision cater to the desires of wealthy people? That said, there is such a "visa," but you have to actually be wealthy and willing to part with some part of that wealth. Cypriot citizenship is for sale and costs €2.5 million. I think that includes dependents. Better yet, Malta just put its citizenship up for sale (starting last month) at the bargain price of €650,000 (plus a bit more per dependent). Buy your EU citizenship, and you have your flexible Schengen-wide visa (and more)!


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

Actually you don't need to be particularly obscenely rich to take a year's sabbatical and travel, but that's not really the point. I stand by my advice that a trip to a consulate and a well crafted application for a year's long-stay visa (such things exist) might bear fruit.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Nononymous said:


> Actually you don't need to be particularly obscenely rich to take a year's sabbatical and travel, but that's not really the point. I stand by my advice that a trip to a consulate and a well crafted application for a year's long-stay visa (such things exist) might bear fruit.


that kind of visa simply doesn't exist for Spain though


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Nononymous said:


> Actually you don't need to be particularly obscenely rich to take a year's sabbatical and travel,.


Depends on your definition of rich.

But the ER visas tend to require far more then what it takes to live for a year. If you aren't receiving a pension your likely looking at between 500K and a million of liquid assets.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> that kind of visa simply doesn't exist for Spain though


Look here here and scroll down to "non-lucrative visa", or here. 

Money in the bank and health insurance seem to be the only requirements.

This does give you the ability to stay a year in Spain without working. Doesn't appear to give you unlimited rights to spend more than 90 days per six months in other parts of the Schengen area, so not quite the ideal grand-tour solution (though presumably there could be workarounds, such as two six-month long-stay visas in two different Schengen countries).

Again, call me naive if you will, but it seems a reasonable plan if you have a credible reason for your stay, a clear intention to return, and a well-prepared application.


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

Again, to repeat, if you get a visa from Germany _*it does not give you the right to spend, say, 126 days in a row in Portugal*_. If Germany issues you a visa, then your base (home) must be in Germany, with short sojourns allowed elsewhere provided you're otherwise meeting the terms of your visa. There is no "hop around the Schengen Area at random" long-term or permanent visa except: (1) the EC Long Term Residence Permit (which omits Denmark); (2) an EEA or Swiss citizenship (or at least EEA/Swiss status).

There is no Schengen "Park Hopper Pass," sorry.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

Nononymous said:


> Look here here and scroll down to "non-lucrative visa", or here.
> 
> Money in the bank and health insurance seem to be the only requirements.
> 
> ...


oh yeah.... the _non-lucrative visa.............

_if those figures are correct - & they seem to vary depending on which consulate you contact - they have dropped _hugely _since last time I looked - they were asking more than 3x those figures


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Those are the basic numbers. What the consulate will require can and will change.

I bet if you're a retired senior receiving a pension those numbers are reasonable. If OTOH you're younger,single etc they'll require more.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

BBCWatcher said:


> Again, to repeat, if you get a visa from Germany _*it does not give you the right to spend, say, 126 days in a row in Portugal*_. If Germany issues you a visa, then your base (home) must be in Germany, with short sojourns allowed elsewhere provided you're otherwise meeting the terms of your visa. There is no "hop around the Schengen Area at random" long-term or permanent visa except: (1) the EC Long Term Residence Permit (which omits Denmark); (2) an EEA or Swiss citizenship (or at least EEA/Swiss status).
> 
> There is no Schengen "Park Hopper Pass," sorry.


I quote from the description in the second link, from the Canadian consulate:

_Schengen Space

Foreign nationals who hold a valid long term national visa can move freely through other Schengen States for a maximum of three months within any six month period, provided they meet the entry conditions.
_

I never said 126 days, but I did say 90! Anyway, who knows, but in theory you could string together two of these long-stay things in different countries and spend a whole year in Schengen. Or do Spain for a year and then 90 days twice in other parts of Schengen. Not impossible, according to my reading.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

NickZ said:


> Those are the basic numbers. What the consulate will require can and will change.
> 
> I bet if you're a retired senior receiving a pension those numbers are reasonable. If OTOH you're younger,single etc they'll require more.


Exactly. To a certain extent it's subjective, and negotiated, which is why it's important to do the research, discuss matters with the consulate, and have all the ducks in a row when applying for a long-stay visa. And also be friendly and not piss off the consulate...


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

Nononymous said:


> And also be friendly and not piss off the consulate...


You mean just act Canadian ?


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

...not if you're Tom Ford.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

elenetxu said:


> ...not if you're Tom Ford.


It's Rob, actually, but I take your point.

Yes, be nice. Be a regular sort of middle-class, middle-aged person who wants to spend a year somewhere and who clearly intends to return home after, and you can probably work something out.


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## 213979 (Apr 11, 2013)

Nononymous said:


> It's Rob, actually, but I take your point.
> 
> Yes, be nice. Be a regular sort of middle-class, middle-aged person who wants to spend a year somewhere and who clearly intends to return home after, and you can probably work something out.


Point taken. This is what happens when I post before coffee. 

Tom Ford = attractive American designer and director
ROB Ford = WTF Toronto!?!


out:


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## Brangus (May 1, 2010)

BBCWatcher said:


> ....Or park yourself in Spain for a mere 12 months and _*spend the rest of your life*_ (and maybe even the lives of descendants, depending on the ages of your children) darting around the EEA as much or as little as you (and your descendants) wish.


But it's not as though the OP would receive a Spanish passport the moment those 12 months are up. My OH has applied for citizenship, and it took 6 months just to get an appointment to submit all of the extensive paperwork. After that, the decision-making process will probably take more than 2 years. If you become resident somewhere else during that time, it might nullify the application -- though I'm not 100% sure about that.

Also, the applicant should speak Spanish well enough to be interviewed by the authorities, and if married, the spouse may be called in for an interview in Spanish as well.


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## BBCWatcher (Dec 28, 2012)

Agreed, Nononymous. If you have a visa that permits residence in one Schengen country, you're a resident of only that country. You still have the 90-in-180 tourist permission for visiting other Schengen countries. What you don't have is an unfettered right to hop about the Schengen Area arbitrarily and for long periods. You have what you already have as a citizen of a Schengen visa waiver country (or on a multi-entry Schengen tourist visa), plus residence in a single Schengen country, the country that issued your visa.

Yes, Brangus, that question of how much real world legal continuous residence time in Spain is required is an important one. I'd encourage the original poster to research that question. Italy, to pick an example, has a similar expedited residence path to citizenship for non-citizen children and grandchildren of anybody who was born an Italian citizen. (There's no requirement that parent or grandparent was _recognized_ as an Italian citizen at the time. That parent/grandparent simply must have been _recognizable_ as a citizen at birth as a matter of law.) In Italy 10 years is cut down to 3 years for such individuals. They can apply when they hit 2 years of legal continuous residence, and they can take their oaths as soon as day 1 of the 4th year of residence, in which case citizenship becomes effective on day 2 of the 4th year. At least, that's how it's supposed to work.


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## NickZ (Jun 26, 2009)

elenetxu said:


> ROB Ford = WTF Toronto!?!
> 
> 
> out:


Conservatives have always been that way :flame: Remember John A was pretty famous for not having water in his water glass  Not that the rest are perfect. It's very lucky video camera weren't in everybody's pockets years ago. Political conventions used to be a cross between a drunken frat party and well a very drunken frat party :yield:


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## Zquircle (Feb 2, 2014)

*Presuncion de Nacionalidad*

Hi!

There´s another way of obtaining the Spanish citizenship, it is called "Presuncion de Nacionalidad" (Presumption of Nationality). Let me explain:

I was born in Spain, although I never got the Spanish nationality. Mother was (is) Spanish, and father an American expat. For some reason, being the eldest of my siblings, I never got the Spanish Birth Certificate, so I couldn´t get my DNI (Spanish National ID card), so I wasn´t Spanish at all.

After working for a couple of years and paying my taxes as any other Spaniard, I returned to college to finish my studies. And one day I got pissed off: I was denied a scholarship, even if I complied with all the required academic conditions, just because I was not Spanish.

As I didn´t want to give up my American citizenship, I informed myself, and found that by appealing to the Presuncion de Nacionalidad process, I wouldn´t have to make any oath or anything like that to be considered as an Spanish citizen. What you I did is I went to a tribunal, and asked for this in a written form I wrote by myself. The thing is that you tell them "Hey, I am Spanish because of my birth, etc etc, and I want you to acknowledge it".

And here I am. And never had to visit the American consulate or embassy. *And I got my scholarship!!*

Google it, there is plenty of information. This is the form. What you will have to look at is if they what formalities are required.


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## bigmutt (Aug 5, 2008)

I bet that most people don't realize that the U.S. is one of the few countries where the mere birthing of your child & dropping him/her onto American soil makes that baby a full U.S. citizen ... for life. No matter the mother's nationality; no matter how long the baby spends in the U.S. before being hustled back to the parents' country. 
Very liberal policy, if you ask me.
.
Same goes for Canada, I guess; here's what happened:
My daughter was born in Canada during a brief visit by her U.S. mother and immediately came back to the U.S., where she lived for 25 years before visiting Canada and picking up a Cnd passport while she was there.
We applied for her U.S. citizenship as soon as we got back to the U.S., by the way, when she was about 2 weeks old. She now carries two passports (allowed in both countries) and basically has her pick when traveling. 

But my point is, very few countries are as generous with citizenship as the U.S. and Canada, yet so many people from other countries bash us for our "restrictive" policies.


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## xxxxxxxxxxxxxdeanhankin (May 5, 2009)

Wow, glad I'm not an American.... I could get into all sorts of arguments.

If the OP were British he could just do what everyone else does, go there, enjoy himself and come back when he's had enough :washing:

Thankfully we live in the free world :lock1: and that would be against the law :yawn:


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## Ziggy99 (Sep 7, 2012)

*had his knuckles rapped a couple of times*



lebesset said:


> Iths in a 6 month period but fortunately they seem to allow you to cheat a little ...a friend of mine regularly stays 4-5 months and has just had his knuckles rapped a couple of times ...it depends if they think you have been working
> 
> however the UK is much more welcoming , up to 6 months , ireland is also outside the schengen area as are some of the old eastern block countries ; combined with some time in morocco in the depths of winter it would be very easy to spend a year seeing the sights and soaking up the culture


What fine if any did your friend get for overstaying three months? Which Eastern block countries are not part of EU?

Is it posssible to get a visa if you want to do volunteer work for more than three months in Portugal or Spain? I am not interested in working or getting free medical coverage, I just want to spend 4-5 months away from our horrible winters.

Thanks


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## Mike-Espana (Jul 25, 2013)

alejandroG said:


> New member here. I am seeking information on whether or not I can obtain a Spanish passport. I was born in Spain to American parents and moved back to the US as a small child. I have both an American and a Spanish birth certificate. I would like to travel extensively in the EU and as American it would be easier on a Spanish passport. Do I have any chance of getting a Spanish passport without having lived in the country, based purely on the fact that I was born there?


Hi, as a Brit heading in the reverse direction with my American wife (dual UK/USA citizen), I'd exercise extreme caution with plonking down any money on a property if that is the only reason to assist in getting a Spanish passport. 

Spain as you might be aware is fiscally bust and the tax authorities are dreaming up all sorts of 'scams' to relieve you of your money if/when you may wish to sell a property later on. 

Whilst tax and property laws are pretty transparent in both the UK and the USA where you can buy a property safely through reputable mechanisms like Title companies (USA) or Solicitors (UK), in Spain its very different. Far too many people have bought in Spain only to find out the property was illegal and has to be knocked down. The town hall may have sanctioned the build but the province can declare it illegal, or if they say its OK, Madrid can declare its illegal. Forget about getting recompense, it wont happen.

Then there's the tax liability as a Spanish citizen/resident where like the USA you are liable for tax on worldly income and not only that, in Spain you now have to declare your wealth if resident (Spanish or not). In summary, an EU (Spanish) passport might make your travel a little easier although an American friend of ours has lived in Spain for 10 years without any real hassles on a US passport. The real problem in Spain is taxation which is significantly higher than even the UK without the safe guards of the UK like security of property.

My advice for anyone going to live in Spain is to rent and do NOT put any serious assets into Spain as you'll have a devil of a job to take them out if you want to leave. Even if you can sell your property, the tax man will love you and take a large slice unlike the USA or UK.


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## Mike-Espana (Jul 25, 2013)

BBCWatcher said:


> Note that Spain recently introduced a "homestead" program for foreigners, and that's one straightforward way to reside legally in Spain. It's not cheap, though. You have to buy a home in Spain of a certain minimum value -- I've seen reports of 500,000 euro minimum -- and you are not permitted to work in Spain. While you'll probably get most of your money back if/when you sell the home (though that's not guaranteed), there's still a major financial commitment involved if you want to take advantage of that foreign residence program in Spain.
> 
> A student visa might be another possible avenue to explore, but be careful. Some European countries (e.g. Italy) don't count student visa time as residence time for purposes of naturalization, EC Long Term Residence Permits, and so on. You'll have to research Spain's naturalization rules carefully. However, the short one year residence requirement for individuals born in Spain is clear, and that's a big break. Many/most foreigners have to reside in Spain for 10 years before they can naturalize. A 12 month wait is practically an extended vacation and very doable for many people.


Like many things in Spain, money talks and greases palms even for government sponsored programs like this but I'd advise against tying up that sort of money with (a) the state of the housing market and (b) the vagaries of Spanish tax laws !


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## douglasaq (Jan 13, 2014)

*Question about new "homestead" program*



BBCWatcher said:


> Careful. Visas are national in the Schengen Area, and so are minimum residency requirements for citizenship. If, for example, Germany issues you a one year visa, that visa gives you the right to live in Germany for one year (subject to the terms of the visa), not to head over to, say, Austria for 322 days. (Short visits to other Schengen Area countries are OK, per normal tourist conditions.) There is no "pan Schengen superpass" until you obtain either an EC Long Term Residence Permit or an EEA citizenship (or Swiss citizenship). And the EC Long Term Residence Permit has a couple exceptions, notably Denmark.
> 
> So if the plan is to get Spanish citizenship then you must become a legal continuous resident of Spain and park yourself there, provably, for at least one year. Which is a heck of a lot better than 10 years -- you got a 90% discount on that offer simply because your mother delivered you in Spain. (Be sure to thank your mother for that great deal if she's still around.)
> 
> I've described one way you can get residence in Spain: the new "homestead" program. There may be others depending on your circumstances and interests. But it's Spain and only Spain offering you this deal. If Slovakia (for example) issues you a visa that's lovely, but it wouldn't help you reside in Spain to acquire Spanish citizenship.


Hi BBCWatcher,

I was wondering if you could provide a link to access your post concerning the new "homestead" program that you mention in your last paragraph above. Sorry for the reply with quote, but, being still somewhat new to the site, I couldn't find another way to reply.

Thanks,
Douglas


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

douglasaq said:


> Hi BBCWatcher,
> 
> I was wondering if you could provide a link to access your post concerning the new "homestead" program that you mention in your last paragraph above. Sorry for the reply with quote, but, being still somewhat new to the site, I couldn't find another way to reply.
> 
> ...


replying with a quote is the BEST way 

that way everyone knows who they're talking to!!

:welcome: btw


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## douglasaq (Jan 13, 2014)

Thanks Xabiachica (nice username; sounds like wise girl in Spanish),

Thanks for the warm welcome and your explanation about replying with quotes. What happened was that I was replying directly from my email via the notification link sent by this site, so it didn't allow me to reply any other way without being logged in, but now I know and I will keep your explanation in mind for future times (since yours is the last reply, I am not using quotes this time).

Best,
Douglas


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