# How to retire in Australia without getting a 405 VISA



## susiesan (Jul 20, 2012)

My husband and I want to retire to and live in Australia, coming from the US. We will be both be over 55 years old. I have looked at the requirements for the 405 Retiree Investor VISA. It is very expensive and the Australian government keeps raising the money amounts you have to have in assets.

Is there a way we could come as tourists, stay for a year, go back to the US for a short visit, and then come back for another year? We would probably rent an apartment and have our household goods shipped over, and would want to come back to our Australian residence. I know we can't become Australian citizens. We just don't want to live in the US anymore, we want to live in Australia. We have plenty of money to support ourselves.


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2012)

You cant live in Australia on a tourist visa. A tourist visa is for tourism purposes and if immigration suspected you were trying to live in the country on a tourist visa you would be put on the next plane home.

Do neither of you plan on working at all? Got any skills that could get you a skilled visa because once you have it unless it employer sponsored you dont actually have to work if you can afford not to.


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## susiesan (Jul 20, 2012)

_shel said:


> You cant live in Australia on a tourist visa. A tourist visa is for tourism purposes and if immigration suspected you were trying to live in the country on a tourist visa you would be put on the next plane home.
> 
> Do neither of you plan on working at all? Got any skills that could get you a skilled visa because once you have it unless it employer sponsored you dont actually have to work if you can afford not to.


Both of us could work, part time. My husband is a medical ultrasound tech with much needed job skills, and would qualify easily for a skilled visa, but he is 62 years old now. So I don't think he qualifies for a skilled visa. I am 57 now and have many job skills that are needed but the age thing is going to be a problem.


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2012)

Ahh so then it is a bit difficult then, 57 not too bad but it would have to be employer sponsored which means you would have to work and probably full time. 

No children in Australia?


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## jb12 (Jan 27, 2012)

susiesan said:


> My husband and I want to retire to and live in Australia, coming from the US. We will be both be over 55 years old. I have looked at the requirements for the 405 Retiree Investor VISA. It is very expensive and the Australian government keeps raising the money amounts you have to have in assets.
> 
> Is there a way we could come as tourists, stay for a year, go back to the US for a short visit, and then come back for another year? We would probably rent an apartment and have our household goods shipped over, and would want to come back to our Australian residence. I know we can't become Australian citizens. We just don't want to live in the US anymore, we want to live in Australia. We have plenty of money to support ourselves.


I'm assuming you and your husband have already visited Australia? Just wondering because I think you can just apply for the Australian Electronic Travel Authority (ETA): Internet Visa Services Australia

This ETA is valid for a year. it will allow you and your husband (you have to apply separately) up to 3 months at a time. Both of you can technically stay up to a year in Australia. However, both of you will need to leave Australia briefly before the 3 months. Maybe fly to NZ, Fiji, or other countries closer than the US just so the both of you can meet the requirements of not overstaying the 3 months. This means you can't stay in Australia for 3 months or more straight. When this ETA expires, I believe you can reapply for another one but it will always have to be while you are outside of Australia.

The process to apply takes about 5-10 mins or less depending if there maybe any issue with your passports in the system. I believe only costs about $20 or so in USD. There is no visa label. Just print out the form after it has been approved. You can bring a copy. But your US passport information along with when you applied and when it will expire is with the Australian govt database.

With this ETA, you are prohibited from working at all. I reviewed that retirement visa you stated above. That is some expensive investment and it is only valid for 4 yrs. You and your husband will continually need to apply when the visa expires and be reevaluated again. However, the one thing I noticed is that you don't get any type of PR status even after that expensive investment. 

I think you and your husband can just use this ETA to somewhat retire in Australia for most of the year. There is just that inconvenience of having to leave out of Australia before the 3 months straight arrives. I am not sure if this is what some retired Americans are doing in Australia? Just as long as both of you follow the conditions and not work and truly in Australia to tour (well in your case retire), I don't think the Australian immigration would raise a red flag. If you are questioned, I'm sure you can provide bank statements,etc. that allows you and your husband to live in Australia with your own money.

But check out the website for more information. There is also FAQs about some restrictions on this ETA.


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## Maz25 (Jul 6, 2008)

The ETA is for tourism purposes and as Shel has rightly pointed out, if immigration suspects that they are using the visa as a means to live permanently in the country, they will be put on the first plane home and also have a 3 year exclusion ban placed on them which will prevent them from applying for another visa for 3 years!

There would be questions raised by immigration for sure if someone lives in Australia for one year and then immediately applies for another visa as soon as it runs out. Using the ETA for this purpose would be a recipe for disaster and immigration are very swift to act when they suspect that someone is abusing the visa system.

Personally, I would not advise anyone to use a visa for a purpose other than what it was intended. You can take a risk but sooner rather than later, you get caught out. Forget about the episodes of Border Security but it is quite common to see people caught out by immigration even when you are entering Australia and I doubt that it makes for a very pleasant experience. It also makes getting a visa to go elsewhere a whole lot more difficult as typically you have to declare whether you have been deported from other countries.


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## toadsurfer (Nov 27, 2009)

What about New Zealand as an alternative seeing as I can't see how Oz will work for you. Think you can stay up to three months at a time without a formal visa and can repeat entry as long as you don't stay in the country more than 6 months a year. So you could do 6 months summer in NZ (will have to take a return trip to oz or a pacific island after 3 months) and 6 at home in the US or elsewhere? Live an endless summer! 
And you could buy an awesome house somewhere warm like Hawkes Bay with much better value for money than Australia.


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## jb12 (Jan 27, 2012)

I guess applying yearly for at ETA and staying most of the year would be a giveaway to Australian immigration. But they can likely only be able to do it for the first ETA. Just like what someone would get with a working holiday visa in Australia. Although a WHV holder can stay for a year with no questions. But if this couple could possibly do up to a 3 month stay, per year. They would be retired and have the money to do so. More than 6 months total in a year for consecutive years would likely be a giveaway. 

Susiesan,
A list of Best Places to Retire Overseas - on Retirement by US News. : The 18 Best Places to Retire Overseas - On Retirement (usnews.com)

If Australia is still a place that both you and your husband want to retire. Then it looks like both of you have to pay that investment amount and enjoy the stay for four years until it's time to renew the retirement visa. Other than what Australia has to offer, I think the other main reason is because both of you don't have to learn a new language. It will make the transition to your new life a lot easier especially during retirement!


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## susiesan (Jul 20, 2012)

toadsurfer said:


> What about New Zealand as an alternative seeing as I can't see how Oz will work for you. Think you can stay up to three months at a time without a formal visa and can repeat entry as long as you don't stay in the country more than 6 months a year. So you could do 6 months summer in NZ (will have to take a return trip to oz or a pacific island after 3 months) and 6 at home in the US or elsewhere? Live an endless summer!
> And you could buy an awesome house somewhere warm like Hawkes Bay with much better value for money than Australia.


I'm beginning to look at New Zealand as an alternate place to live on this side of the globe. We enjoy travel in SE Asia so we wanted to live somewhere closer and not have to fly 20 hours. We might do the 6 months NZ, 6 months US thing, go back and forth. If this was to be the case, we wouldn't want to buy a house and leave it empty for 6 months.

I had seen the article about the 18 places to retire to. In Asia, Thailand and Malaysia are possibilities. Vietnam is out for Americans as the US will not send social security payments there.


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## susiesan (Jul 20, 2012)

_shel said:


> Ahh so then it is a bit difficult then, 57 not too bad but it would have to be employer sponsored which means you would have to work and probably full time.
> 
> No children in Australia?


No children at all, no family in Oz, no connections whatsoever. We have visited OZ twice and just like the country, the people, the attitude.

I suppose I could buy or start a business there and provide jobs for other people. I'm assuming there is no mandatory retirement age if you own your own business? I could continue to do some work, my husband might be able to find some once we were living there in spite of his age if a hospital or clinic is in short supply of ultrasound techs.

Does Australia welcome people who have money to invest in businesses in the country? Is there a visa for that?


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2012)

Do you have a current business? Business visas are not as simple as wanting or being able to set up a business in Australia. You have to have a proven track record of running a successful business which has or more than a specified turnover per year. You then agree to transfer that business to Australia along with its assets. 

But if you can prove all that then no there is no mandatory retirement age for anyone in Australia. Bar some jobs which require good health etc you can work until you want.


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## susiesan (Jul 20, 2012)

_shel said:


> Do you have a current business? Business visas are not as simple as wanting or being able to set up a business in Australia. You have to have a proven track record of running a successful business which has or more than a specified turnover per year. You then agree to transfer that business to Australia along with its assets.
> 
> But if you can prove all that then no there is no mandatory retirement age for anyone in Australia. Bar some jobs which require good health etc you can work until you want.


I currently own and work at a very successful business. I have 25 year proven track record. But it's not the kind of business that can be transferred-it is a wholesale distribution company. I will be selling the business when it's time to move out of the US and the proceeds of the sale would be available to transfer to Australia. This money could be used to buy or invest in another business in Oz.

My husband and I are in excellent health so that's not an issue. The problem would be finding a company or hospital in Oz that could look past our ages and hire us to get our extensive job skills/work histories.


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## Maz25 (Jul 6, 2008)

susiesan said:


> I currently own and work at a very successful business. I have 25 year proven track record. But it's not the kind of business that can be transferred-it is a wholesale distribution company. I will be selling the business when it's time to move out of the US and the proceeds of the sale would be available to transfer to Australia. This money could be used to buy or invest in another business in Oz.
> 
> My husband and I are in excellent health so that's not an issue. The problem would be finding a company or hospital in Oz that could look past our ages and hire us to get our extensive job skills/work histories.


Personally, I feel that if you are looking for sponsorship, then you will struggle on the simple basis that your husband is very close to retirement age. It is a significant expense and effort for an employer to sponsor an employee and most employers would expect that they get at least 2-3 years service (preferably a lot more!) back from the new employee.

I'm not saying that you both do not have that many years or even more left to give but if you look at the public sector, which is where most of the health jobs will be for your husband, at 62, most people have either retired or at least 2-3 years away from it, so from an employer's perspective, it's a bit of a pointless and expensive exercise to consider sponsorship as they won't get their money's worth back.

Obviously, if you had your own visa, then that would most likely change things but unfortunately, without a valid visa that entitles you to live and work in Australia, you will have your work cut out trying to find sponsorship.


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## susiesan (Jul 20, 2012)

Maz25 said:


> Personally, I feel that if you are looking for sponsorship, then you will struggle on the simple basis that your husband is very close to retirement age. It is a significant expense and effort for an employer to sponsor an employee and most employers would expect that they get at least 2-3 years service (preferably a lot more!) back from the new employee.
> 
> I'm not saying that you both do not have that many years or even more left to give but if you look at the public sector, which is where most of the health jobs will be for your husband, at 62, most people have either retired or at least 2-3 years away from it, so from an employer's perspective, it's a bit of a pointless and expensive exercise to consider sponsorship as they won't get their money's worth back.
> 
> Obviously, if you had your own visa, then that would most likely change things but unfortunately, without a valid visa that entitles you to live and work in Australia, you will have your work cut out trying to find sponsorship.


Here in the US, many people in the health care field work well into their 70s if they can, are physically able, and want to. Very few US doctors and healthcare people retire at 62. Their skills are in great demand, they have a lot to offer, and they are making good money. My husband doesn't need to retire here in the US, but we just want to get out of here and live in Australia.

We do have the money needed for the retiree investor visa but with the US FATCA law coming I'm not sure we could find an Australian bank that would take our money that needs to be deposited in OZ under the visa requirements. No one wants American customers due to the onerous paperwork that's coming . It's a catch 22-you have to invest in Oz but it could be impossible to do so.


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## Maz25 (Jul 6, 2008)

susiesan said:


> Here in the US, many people in the health care field work well into their 70s if they can, are physically able, and want to. Very few US doctors and healthcare people retire at 62. Their skills are in great demand, they have a lot to offer, and they are making good money. My husband doesn't need to retire here in the US, but we just want to get out of here and live in Australia.
> 
> We do have the money needed for the retiree investor visa but with the US FATCA law coming I'm not sure we could find an Australian bank that would take our money that needs to be deposited in OZ under the visa requirements. No one wants American customers due to the onerous paperwork that's coming . It's a catch 22-you have to invest in Oz but it could be impossible to do so.


I fully appreciate that a lot of people are choosing (or being forced by circumstances) to work well into their 70s in many countries of the world but unfortunately, when you are dependent on sponsorship, it's a completely different story as an employer has to make a realistic assessment of the financial burden involved with getting you a visa (it is a lot more difficult to get a visa after you turn 50 and there are more conditions to be satisfied for sure) and the potential benefits that they hope to reap from your employment and most of the time, the maths simply does not stack up.

Your age works against you as most employers would wonder why you left it so late to make the move and once the issue of retirement comes in, then most employers will not even consider the issue of sponsorship. Your husband is also up against a lot of ambitious and young health professionals from Europe who still have a lot of years left to give and unfortunately, employers will always prefer them as they've probably got about 30 - 40 years left to give as opposed to 5 - 10 years in your case and again from the point of view of business, it makes more sense to employ a younger person. I'm not doubting that your husband is brilliant at his job and has a lot to offer but convincing an employer of this fact can be likened to trying to get water to flow uphill!

I don't understand US law, so I won't even attempt to comment there. That said, have you spoken to a migration agent? Their first consultation is normally free and they will be able to advise you if there are other options for moving to Australia or whether you should simply consider another country.

Good luck and hope it all works out for you


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## jb12 (Jan 27, 2012)

susiesan said:


> Here in the US, many people in the health care field work well into their 70s if they can, are physically able, and want to. Very few US doctors and healthcare people retire at 62. Their skills are in great demand, they have a lot to offer, and they are making good money. My husband doesn't need to retire here in the US, but we just want to get out of here and live in Australia.
> 
> We do have the money needed for the retiree investor visa but with the US FATCA law coming I'm not sure we could find an Australian bank that would take our money that needs to be deposited in OZ under the visa requirements. No one wants American customers due to the onerous paperwork that's coming . It's a catch 22-you have to invest in Oz but it could be impossible to do so.


Your comment about people in the US not yet retiring at age 62 and working into their 70's is true. However, these people that you know were likely not sponsored to work in the US at age 62 and later. They are likely already US citizens or hold a US immigrant visa (PR) likely through family sponsorship. So the issue with Australia has nothing to do with people at this age not mentally or physically being able to do the job. It has more to do with how many years the person can contribute to the company sponsoring them. If you had to sponsor someone, a company will select a person that can contribute at least 5-10 years. Even if your husband was sponsored at age 65 when the both of you plan to move to Australia, that will likely be only a temporary visa for say 4 years (457 visa?). I don't think your husband would be qualified to apply for a PR visa due to age? 

As for the US FATCA Law, why would you assume that no banks in Australia would want to take American customers just because of the paperwork? I would think they would love the money coming into their particular bank? I don't think many banks would survive without people putting their money into their bank. The extra paperwork they would need to provide to the US government would probably not be as much as when people are borrowing money from the banks. It's probably a matter of printing out documents showing how much money you have invested,etc. Don't worry about the paperwork that a bank has to provide. 

Not sure how this retirement visa situation works and where you invest your money. I would suggest you and your husband make an appointment to see a tax advisor that would be knowledgeable about the FATCA Law and its requirement. Then consult with a registered Australian migration agent to explain in more detail about the requirements of the Australian retirement visa. You can find a registered migrant visa from : https://www.mara.gov.au/

Once you and your husband found out more details what the investment in Australia requires, then you can start search for which bank,etc. you need to invest the money in Australia. Probably a good idea to take a trip to Australia while on vacation to speak to different bank representatives and find out what their requirements are. Might be a little difficult to get important questions answered through email or phone especially with confidential information.

I'm not familiar at all with this retirement visa. But does that mean after the visa expires, you do not get your investment back? If not, I guess that's what it costs to live in Australia during the retirement years even though it's not long term.


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## susiesan (Jul 20, 2012)

jb12 said:


> As for the US FATCA Law, why would you assume that no banks in Australia would want to take American customers just because of the paperwork? I would think they would love the money coming into their particular bank? I don't think many banks would survive without people putting their money into their bank. The extra paperwork they would need to provide to the US government would probably not be as much as when people are borrowing money from the banks. It's probably a matter of printing out documents showing how much money you have invested,etc. Don't worry about the paperwork that a bank has to provide.
> 
> I'm not familiar at all with this retirement visa. But does that mean after the visa expires, you do not get your investment back? If not, I guess that's what it costs to live in Australia during the retirement years even though it's not long term.


Banks in many countries are already refusing to take in money from Americans and closing their accounts because of FATCA. It's happening in Switzerland, Germany, France, to name a few. My understanding is that the paperwork is so onerous and it opens them up to intrusions by the IRS of all their accounts, so they just refuse American money. There may be some banks in Australia that will set up accounts for Americans now, but once FATCA is fully implemented it could all change.

In my reading of the 405 Retiree Investor visa, once you invest your assets in Australia to get the visa, you cannot touch the money for 4 years. You do get it back if the visa is not renewed. Every 4 years you have to reapply for this visa, with the financial requirements continuing to go up. If I have gone through the expense of moving all of my possessions to OZ, and severing ties with the US, I'm not inclined to do this if it would only be for 4 years. Wherever I end up moving to in retirement, I want it to be permanent.

Are all of these migration agents in Australia? How do you find one who is knowledgeable about the 405 visa and knows about Americans moving to Australia?


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## jb12 (Jan 27, 2012)

susiesan said:


> Banks in many countries are already refusing to take in money from Americans and closing their accounts because of FATCA. It's happening in Switzerland, Germany, France, to name a few. My understanding is that the paperwork is so onerous and it opens them up to intrusions by the IRS of all their accounts, so they just refuse American money. There may be some banks in Australia that will set up accounts for Americans now, but once FATCA is fully implemented it could all change.
> 
> In my reading of the 405 Retiree Investor visa, once you invest your assets in Australia to get the visa, you cannot touch the money for 4 years. You do get it back if the visa is not renewed. Every 4 years you have to reapply for this visa, with the financial requirements continuing to go up. If I have gone through the expense of moving all of my possessions to OZ, and severing ties with the US, I'm not inclined to do this if it would only be for 4 years. Wherever I end up moving to in retirement, I want it to be permanent.
> 
> Are all of these migration agents in Australia? How do you find one who is knowledgeable about the 405 visa and knows about Americans moving to Australia?


That MARA website should represent different countries and not just in Australia. You will just have to contact a migration agent that might be located near where you live and ask if they are knowledgeable about that 405 visa. You had concern if Australia may have banks that might not take American's money,etc. Well I did a quick search and this article indicates that Australia is one of the countries working with the US in how to handle this FATCA situation: An Overview of FATCA - Baker Tilly - British Virgin Islands You can probably do more searching if there is more documentation. I don't have any statistics, but I believe there are certain number of Americans who have retired in Australia. For that reason, I would think Australia would try to do their best to comply with this new requirement so that more Americans will invest their money into Australia.

I did a quick search in the countries around Australia - Asian countries. I could not find one country that provided a permanent retirement visa. There would be a requirement to reapply after the visa expired and the investment and pension requirements. I believe Singapore had a similar amount or within the range as Australia. But I can't remember how many years it would be for. I didn't do a complete research. However, I did find that the Philippines does have a permanent non-immigrant retirement visa program called Special Resident Retiree's Visa - PRA: Philippine Retirement Authority You will have to do some additional research in google to know more about this. Then of course, there are other countries that were suggested in the previous posts for you and your husband to review.

Good luck!


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## susiesan (Jul 20, 2012)

The financial requirements for a temporary retirement visa for NZ are about the same as for Australia, but you only have to tie up your money for 2 years. The visa is for 2 years at a time, and can be renewed. I thought I read that it can lead to permanent residence status unlike the retiree visa for OZ.

As far as the impact of FATCA in Australia, here's an article about the impact on Australian banks:
Banks 'starting to panic' over Fatca - Risk.net
Banks worldwide are beginning to tell the IRS to kiss off, we just won't accept American money.
FATCA Makes Banks Shut Out Americans - Forbes
This may not have happened in Australia yet, bit it is a possibility.

As much as I would really like to live in Australia after retirement, and invest and spend in this wonderful country, I'm going to have to look elsewhere in the region.


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