# Why try to flout the rules ?



## Guest (May 6, 2010)

Can somebody please explain to me why I am reading on the forums in general many people asking how they can break the law in the countries they are moving too ? Why do these same people complain about the rules breakers in the their home country and use that as a reason for them moving... pot and kettle springs to mind. Also I never get this move to another country and even before there they want to have all the things they get at 'home' that is again another reason they say they want to want to move away from their home country ie immigrants taking over the housing /jobs and communities. If you really want to move to another country and have all the same things you had then why move to one that none or few of them then do nothing but sit and complain shakes head No logic whatsoever in that. Maybe it is more to do with the type of people I don't know. I have never been a telly watcher, followed sports to the degree cant live without it nor a down the pub person. Recent visit to the coastal area here was awful nothing but brit bars offering brit food/pie shops UGH brit beer and sky sports lord us ! They also tends ot be the ones that shout in english and expect the spanish to understand ..... ignorant !no wonder some spanairds ( and other ex pats) avoid the areas and have a dislike for some brits.

I loved an experience I had some years ago when a group of brits sat down at a spanish bar and treated the waiter abominably shouting asking why no brit food on menu critising spanish coffee ( theirs is so much better than most brit coffee anyway) wanting tea and in a certain why....just being generally obnoxious. I followed the waiter in on my way to ladies room and heard him in perfect english tell the other staff about the rude english outside. When he served them with their order he did it magnificantly in english with flourish We could not help laughing at their discomfort which they had the good grace to show. One reason I avoid brit areas here. We are not all the same thankfully.


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

Yes I fully agree Val. That's why I moved to an area where their are very few !


----------



## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

I don't particularly like all the Brit bars and up in the North,,,you won't find any.

However, I do believe that those areas are just catering to the many expats and holiday makers who want home "comforts" with sunshine. 

Can you make it clear which rules are people flouting?


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Whilst agreeing with most if not all of the OP, I can't quite detect the link with 'flouting rules'. It seems more a case of ignorance and bad manners to me.
The best way to avoid this kind of thing is to keep clear of those places with large numbers of those kinds of immigrants, who seem to come in all nationalities.
There are some serious breaches of rules and behaviour, though: claiming welfare benefits one is not entitled to, engaging in fraud and deceit of various kinds, drunken loutish behaviour, engaging in actual criminal activity, driving uninsured vehicles, driving under the influence, driving poorly-maintained cars, not signing on the padron, working on the black economy, general tax avoidance and many other sins.
Some of these activities are also indulged in by Spaniards, which should come as no surprise since, to paraphrase Orwell, it is not given to one nation to have all the vices.
I can't help being quietly amused at the small number of immigrants who, with a few years' residence under their belts, feel impelled to instruct newcomers as to how to behave.
The OP I am sure is not one of them.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I wanted to edit and add a bit but we've got extremely poor internet connection today...
I disagree with you Val when you say that these kinds of people change their behaviour when outside their country of origin. A few maybe do but the majority behave like that when at home.
Boorish, anti-social behaviour and general vulgarity was the chief reason why I was happy to leave the UK five years ago and why I have no desire to return.
(Although if for some reason I had to, I'd be reasonably happy living in Glasgow There are some very pleasant neighbourhoods in that great and vibrant city).
Although I deplore the behaviour you describe, I don't get worked up about it as much as I used to. Human nature and preferences come in all varieties and although it's human nature to see our chosen lifestyle as 'the best', it's really just one option amongst many others.
That's not to say that the criminal or semi-legal activities I listed in my post above are acceptable in any society worthy of the name and they all constitute an abuse of the country one has emigrated to.


----------



## Guest (May 6, 2010)

NorthernLass said:


> I don't particularly like all the Brit bars and up in the North,,,you won't find any.
> 
> However, I do believe that those areas are just catering to the many expats and holiday makers who want home "comforts" with sunshine.
> 
> Can you make it clear which rules are people flouting?


Home comforts with sunshine seems a poor basis to make such a big move on but each to their own. 

All you have to do is to read this and other forums and see how many think it okay to break many laws including avoiding taxes driving with illegal or no licences no thought to other road users etc etc The list is possibly endless.


----------



## Guest (May 6, 2010)

ValL said:


> Recent visit to the coastal area here was awful nothing but brit bars offering brit food/pie shops UGH brit beer and sky sports


So you went to a tourist timeshare area catering 100% for mainly British holidaymakers and are surprised by this? You been to Blackpool?

I can understand why some people flout the rules here, most Spanish do so why not? Try working self employed here legally.. 255€ a month social security even with no income, accountant bills, need to be VAT registered even if you earn nothing.. and just been told that there's even more paperwork now if you provide a service to a company in the EU but outside Spain by having to join the EU Traders list (used to only be if you provided goods) which in turn will most likely instigate a tax inspection... working for cash only seems a far viable proposition to earn a living


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

One of the commonest rule floutings one sees is UK registered vehicles. They are only allowed here for six months without being re-registered in Spain AND they have to be fully legal in their country of registration and that includes MoT and VEL - in most cases they are not and, not only are they illegal in that respect, as a consequence, their insurance is invalid too!

What does that say about [all] Brits (we get tarred with the same brush!) to the Spaniard who is involved in an accident caused by one of those Brits who is uninsured and illegal. One might easily imagine that he could even be a hit-and-run type, at least as far as vehicle damage is concerned, especially if he just scarpers without checking if their might have been a kiddy that he didn't see inside the vehicle he has just hit.

This is just one small way they flout the rules and there are stacks of others - especially the property scams (many of the "demolition" properties were set up by Brits flouting the rules - true they were in cohorts with the local officials who have been left to pick up the pieces after the Brit property dealer took the money and ran!). 

*Is it any wonder that, in many places, the locals don't want our presence other than for the money we bring in? 
*Is it any wonder that, in many places, honest Brits try to shun their compatriots? 
*Is it any wonder that, in many places, the Spanish locals try to make the Brits' lives unpleasant and attempt to drive them out?

You wouldn't like it if, when you were living in UK, the immigrants around you flouted the rules that you were required to live by! Although, come to think of it, many of you were probably flouting them too!

OK, I've gone on about Brits but I am a Brit too and there are probably nationals from other countries who are just as bad but you aren't accusing me of racial discrimination.

End of my rant!


----------



## Guest (May 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> Whilst agreeing with most if not all of the OP, I can't quite detect the link with 'flouting rules'. It seems more a case of ignorance and bad manners to me.
> The best way to avoid this kind of thing is to keep clear of those places with large numbers of those kinds of immigrants, who seem to come in all nationalities.
> There are some serious breaches of rules and behaviour, though: claiming welfare benefits one is not entitled to, engaging in fraud and deceit of various kinds, drunken loutish behaviour, engaging in actual criminal activity, driving uninsured vehicles, driving under the influence, driving poorly-maintained cars, not signing on the padron, working on the black economy, general tax avoidance and many other sins.
> Some of these activities are also indulged in by Spaniards, which should come as no surprise since, to paraphrase Orwell, it is not given to one nation to have all the vices.
> ...


The link to flouting rules,breaking the countries laws is abound on this and other fora. Being ignorant of the laws is not the same as knowing the laws and deliberately ignoring them again blatant in many questions /comments on many fora. What the spanairds do in their own country is not the point of my post. All countries have people who do it knowingly and unwittingly. I have no idea why you post the comment underlined nor why you feel the need to back it up with the sentence underneath. I have been here about 6 years now and no intention nor right to tell others how to do things here. Since being on my own I am trying to find out what I should be doing under my new status which has changed drastically.
Hopefully I am still fully legal and will continue to obey the laws of the country.


----------



## Guest (May 6, 2010)

mrypg9 said:


> I wanted to edit and add a bit but we've got extremely poor internet connection today...
> I disagree with you Val when you say that these kinds of people change their behaviour when outside their country of origin. A few maybe do but the majority behave like that when at home.
> Boorish, anti-social behaviour and general vulgarity was the chief reason why I was happy to leave the UK five years ago and why I have no desire to return.
> (Although if for some reason I had to, I'd be reasonably happy living in Glasgow There are some very pleasant neighbourhoods in that great and vibrant city).
> ...


I did not say these people change their behaviour, I am not worked up about. Why when you ask aquestion that is not all sweetness and light people assume you are worked up, does nobody simply ask a question these days and not get jumped on.


----------



## Guest (May 6, 2010)

ShinyAndy said:


> So you went to a tourist timeshare area catering 100% for mainly British holidaymakers and are surprised by this? You been to Blackpool?
> 
> I can understand why some people flout the rules here, most Spanish do so why not? Try working self employed here legally.. 255€ a month social security even with no income, accountant bills, need to be VAT registered even if you earn nothing.. and just been told that there's even more paperwork now if you provide a service to a company in the EU but outside Spain by having to join the EU Traders list (used to only be if you provided goods) which in turn will most likely instigate a tax inspection... working for cash only seems a far viable proposition to earn a living


Actually that is not the visit I was referring to. In recent months I have visited many towns along the coast and found it not restricted to one area. The 'why not' society is one reason countries are in the state they are lord does no one work on the honesty is the best policy and stop making excuses for their bad /illegal behaviour, take responibility for their own actions have standards that are more than just above legal anymore.


----------



## Guest (May 6, 2010)

Not only do I see UK plated cars but Italian, German, French, etc, etc.. plus loads of Spanish cars with out of date ITV stickers, illegally parked Spanish cars, clearly drunk Spanish people in Spanish cars, uninsured Spanish drivers (I have two friends that have been a victim of this), Spanish kids on bikes with no helmets, on and on and on the list goes

Seems fashionable to be Brit bashing at the moment


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> AND they have to be fully legal in their country of registration and that includes MoT and VEL - in most cases they are not and, not only are they illegal in that respect, as a consequence, their insurance is invalid too!
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

ValL said:


> Actually that is not the visit I was referring to. In recent months I have visited many towns along the coast and found it not restricted to one area. The 'why not' society is one reason countries are in the state they are lord does no one work on the honesty is the best policy and stop making excuses for their bad /illegal behaviour, take responibility for their own actions have standards that are more than just above legal anymore.


 
Yes, I do, or at least try to. Like most other posters.
But I gave up lecturing others as to how they should behave some years ago as my strictures were largely ineffective.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

ValL said:


> I did not say these people change their behaviour, I am not worked up about. Why when you ask aquestion that is not all sweetness and light people assume you are worked up, does nobody simply ask a question these days and not get jumped on.


If you read my post again, you will see that the phrase 'worked up about it' was used to describe myself, not you.
So you are mistaken.
Neither did I suggest that people should change their behaviour....quite the opposite, in fact. There are people on other sites and in the British media who like to pontificate on people's behaviour. Not this one, though which is why I sprecifically excluded you in case you thought you were included in that category.
I don't think you are being 'jumped on' either....simply being slightly disagreed with. Maybe you are being a tad over sensitive? I don't disagree with the general thread of your post, far from it.
In fact, I think that's what I actually posted....that I agreed with most of your comments?
Have another look and read again.


----------



## NorthernLass (Nov 9, 2009)

There are many type of Brits in Britain just as there are in Spain.

Some love their English Breakfast while reading the Sun, Some love to intergrate and get to know their neighbours and be neighbourly, Some like to keep themselves to themselves,

We are all different....Live and let live - whether you're Spanish or British.


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

NorthernLass said:


> There are many type of Brits in Britain just as there are in Spain.
> 
> Some love their English Breakfast while reading the Sun, Some love to intergrate and get to know their neighbours and be neighbourly, Some like to keep themselves to themselves,
> 
> We are all different....Live and let live - whether you're Spanish or British.


Totally agree with that!!! 

But I dont agree with anyone going to another country and flouting the local laws, rules or customs

Jo xxx


----------



## DavidO (May 3, 2010)

There have been whole books written about the complex relationship between Spaniards and their law. It's very different from the Anglo way. Certain things that most people would never consider in their home countries are a way of life in Spain (and similar, mostly Latin, countries).

You most often find this "flexible" interpretation of the law in property dealings, taxes, employment, immigration... anywhere, in fact. As an expat it can be difficult to know what to do. Most of us are uncomfortable with any bending of the law but the fact is that you often won't get anywhere if you don't follow local procedures. You may need even need a solicitor for help in this tricky negotiation around the letter of the law (lawyers in Spain, as often elsewhere, are amoung the worst perpetrators and even outright crooks!).

I've had to bend the law to sell property in Spain. The whole thing was initiated and orchestrated by all of the solicitors on the deal, who assured me and the buyer that there was no way to do the transaction otherwise. Like I said, this sort of thing is a way of life.

The scary thing is that you can never be sure when the authorities will do an about-face and suddenly start a zero-tolerance policy. Then they will show no quarter!

Spanish law is a hard thing for the expat to get their head around and it can potentially be disastrous. Just try to learn as much as you can before you agree to something. I don't encourage anyone to "break the law" but under the cultural circumstances of Spain I don't pass judgement on what are typically victimless violations of bureaucracy.

Most of us who have been around in Spain know what these are. Of course I'm not talking about serious crime or things that can hurt others like drink driving.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> Totally agree with that!!!
> 
> But I dont agree with anyone going to another country and flouting the local laws, rules or customs
> 
> Jo xxx


Customs.....now there's a tricky subject! Basically I agree with you although there are in every country laws/rules which are not life-preserving or wildly important and which most people cheerfully ignore or are ignorant of.
But customs.....I often ask myself why we allow some -a few -Muslim women to cover themselves completely in the UK while non-Muslim women are expected to cover themselves whilst in some Islamic countries. 
I have also come across some customs in Eastern Europe -eating and drinking rituals for example -that I just couldn't conform to.
But on the whole we should just learn to accept that sobre los gustos no hay disputos and live with it!


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

mrypg9 said:


> Customs.....now there's a tricky subject! Basically I agree with you although there are in every country laws/rules which are not life-preserving or wildly important and which most people cheerfully ignore or are ignorant of.
> But customs.....I often ask myself why we allow some -a few -Muslim women to cover themselves completely in the UK while non-Muslim women are expected to cover themselves whilst in some Islamic countries.
> I have also come across some customs in Eastern Europe -eating and drinking rituals for example -that I just couldn't conform to.
> But on the whole we should just learn to accept that sobre los gustos no hay disputos and live with it!



I guess what I mean by customs is probably things like bull fighting??? No I dont like it or approve of it, BUT as a guest in Spain, I wouldnt get involved in trying to get it banned - that kind of thing!! 

Jo xxx


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

jojo said:


> I guess what I mean by customs is probably things like bull fighting??? No I dont like it or approve of it, BUT as a guest in Spain, I wouldnt get involved in trying to get it banned - that kind of thing!!
> 
> Jo xxx


Well, if I was presented with a petition against it and asked to sign, I think I would. We are in a strange situation here, really....we're not 'guests' in the legal sense as the Single European Act gave EU citizens the right to apply for resident status and get it in any EU country. If you have lived in Spain for years, pay taxes and keep out of trouble, then surely you have the right to express an opinion?
We do have the right to vote in EU and local elections, after all.
Incidentally, I loathe bullfighting too.
This whole business of 'not breaking the law' isn't cut and dried. Of course we shouldn't commit serious crimes or cheat or harm anyone in any way. But there are cases where laws are generally ignored as they are widely viewed as unimportant. The laws regarding the use of cannabis in Spain and some other countyries is a case in point. The law was simply unenforceable and in many ways a gross infringement of individual liberty and was quietly dropped. 
Also, we shouldn't forget that many social advances occurred because people were prepared on grounds of conscience to break what they saw as unjust laws.
The abandonment of the UK Poll Tax uis a recent illustration of that, there are many examples in history.
I never have and never would commit a crime which injured or defrauded someone but when, fully insured I was, I decided to drive my UK plated insured car to Mercadona for essential supplies when my Spanish car was under repair, I was fully aware of the fact that I the driver was in breach of Spanish residency law and was prepared to take any consequences. I would have been putting the public and myself in grave danger if I had wobbled home on my bike with my groceries dangling from the handlebars. The policeman I passed at a traffic inspection -they were stopping decrepit old vans, mainly -smiled and said 'Hola'.
I would do so again if circumstances made it necessary and (this in no way applies to you, Jo) I get really p****d off when I, a responsible adult, am categorised with rogues, cheats and other such criminals.


----------



## owdoggy (Jul 23, 2008)

There's rules & rules here:confused2:
What about black money?
It would have been impossible to buy our gaff without it.
At best it's aggressive tax avoidence, at worst it's fraud...... depends on your viewpoint I suppose but the fact is it's done with the knowledge & acceptance of the notary, solicitor, bank manager, uncle tom cobbly & everyone except the taxman........ & the taxman must know it goes on but doesn't throw a bluey as long as nobody takes the pee.

So does that make me a rule flouter or a custom follower............dunno



Doggy


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

owdoggy said:


> There's rules & rules here:confused2:
> What about black money?
> It would have been impossible to buy our gaff without it.
> At best it's aggressive tax avoidence, at worst it's fraud...... depends on your viewpoint I suppose but the fact is it's done with the knowledge & acceptance of the notary, solicitor, bank manager, uncle tom cobbly & everyone except the taxman........ & the taxman must know it goes on but doesn't throw a bluey as long as nobody takes the pee.
> ...


Everyone seems to do it, even my neighbours - who are soooo squeaky clean and honest, she was telling me that she was terrified cos she had to take a carrier bag with serious money in it from the bank to the notary! However, its not right and the government are losing serious money by people doing it. So its a loophole that needs closing really and not the only one, for the sake of the country


Jo xxx


----------



## Tallulah (Feb 16, 2009)

owdoggy said:


> There's rules & rules here:confused2:
> What about black money?
> It would have been impossible to buy our gaff without it.
> At best it's aggressive tax avoidence, at worst it's fraud...... depends on your viewpoint I suppose but the fact is it's done with the knowledge & acceptance of the notary, solicitor, bank manager, uncle tom cobbly & everyone except the taxman........ & the taxman must know it goes on but doesn't throw a bluey as long as nobody takes the pee.
> ...


I think that's a common practice Doggy, as you say - as long as you keep it real. 

The real important things are ensuring that all the permits, registrations are full and complete. The rest, is a risk people are clearly willing to take. There is a downside to underpaying - but it's a lottery a lot of people seem to be willing to take. If development or country's infrastructure decides to pee on you and expropriation is the order of the day, suddenly coming up with why your house is worth more than they're offering might be a problem. But as I say, can't go too wrong keeping it real.

Not real however is someone not a million miles from us who was very resistant to a new development - when it was clear when one of the access roads would have taken her shed. Turns out the shed for which she had permission and on the "plan urbano" drawings, was actually a four bedroom villa. That created a lot of expensive problems for her and incredibly luckily it looks like the project has bitten the dust. Or she might have got 10k at best for her "shed".

Tally.xxx


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

owdoggy said:


> There's rules & rules here:confused2:
> What about black money?
> It would have been impossible to buy our gaff without it.
> At best it's aggressive tax avoidence, at worst it's fraud...... depends on your viewpoint I suppose but the fact is it's done with the knowledge & acceptance of the notary, solicitor, bank manager, uncle tom cobbly & everyone except the taxman........ & the taxman must know it goes on but doesn't throw a bluey as long as nobody takes the pee.
> ...


They have changed the rules slightly. Now you can't pay totally in cash anymore.what % , I don't know though.
I had to do the same when buying mine & recently looking @ the possibility of selling I realised if I don't roll over all the profit I would be liable, worst case, for about 60k in cgt!!


----------



## jojo (Sep 20, 2007)

gus-lopez said:


> They have changed the rules slightly. Now you can't pay totally in cash anymore.what % , I don't know though.
> I had to do the same when buying mine & recently looking @ the possibility of selling I realised if I don't roll over all the profit I would be liable, worst case, for about 60k in cgt!!


Hasnt there been an EU ruling re - CGT and Brits??? Spain has been ordered to pay a huge amount back ...... or am I thinking about something else???

Jo xxx


----------



## baldilocks (Mar 7, 2010)

jojo said:


> Hasnt there been an EU ruling re - CGT and Brits??? Spain has been ordered to pay a huge amount back ...... or am I thinking about something else???
> 
> Jo xxx


I have a feeling that is something else. 

The problem with CGT is if you declare on purchase that the property is only worth 60K but then give another 40k in black money and later come to sell and are perhaps forced to declare the true value which may, by then be 160k you have to pay CGT on 100k not the 60k which is your true capital gain. Of course if, in the meantime you have had works done that you might have claimed for except that you had them done without paying IVA...

Flouting the rules can come quite expensive...


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

baldilocks said:


> I have a feeling that is something else.
> 
> The problem with CGT is if you declare on purchase that the property is only worth 60K but then give another 40k in black money and later come to sell and are perhaps forced to declare the true value which may, by then be 160k you have to pay CGT on 100k not the 60k which is your true capital gain. Of course if, in the meantime you have had works done that you might have claimed for except that you had them done without paying IVA...
> 
> Flouting the rules can come quite expensive...


Yes...good lawyers who help ease these things are expensive.
At the end of the day, people are adults and make their own decisions. As you rightly infer, many people come unstuck. 
But that is their bad luck. They should perhaps have listened to wiser counsel but in my experience people generally do what they want to do, just as they believe what they want to believe. We can only point out the error of their ways but it's usually a waste of time.
As long as they are the only victims, it's not up to us to moralise..


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

Tallulah said:


> Not real however is someone not a million miles from us who was very resistant to a new development - when it was clear when one of the access roads would have taken her shed. Turns out the shed for which she had permission and on the "plan urbano" drawings, was actually a four bedroom villa. That created a lot of expensive problems for her and incredibly luckily it looks like the project has bitten the dust. Or she might have got 10k at best for her "shed".
> 
> Tally.xxx



Ah....but did she complain to the Daily Mail that she was being persecuted by Spain?


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

owdoggy said:


> :
> 
> 
> So does that make me a rule flouter or a custom follower............dunno
> ...


----------



## gus-lopez (Jan 4, 2010)

jojo said:


> Hasnt there been an EU ruling re - CGT and Brits??? Spain has been ordered to pay a huge amount back ...... or am I thinking about something else???
> 
> Jo xxx


No ,if you sell as a non-resident or as a resident without a fiscal certificate there is a 3% retencion of the total selling price against your liability for 18% capital gains tax. this in most cases covers any liability & if you roll-over all the profit in to a new house within 2years then there is no liability at all. Most brits. who were not making much of a profit & in the last two years selling at a loss still had to pay the retention & were told that they couldn't reclaim it, when they could.
My case is slightly different in that the price I paid ,whether legal or illegal, was not a lot & for some reason the Spaniards will buy anything around here now & even come knocking on doors. So the profit between buying &selling price will leave me with a huge bill on the profit. Another peculiarity is the more land there is with the house sends the price through the roof. Why didn't I buy the field behind me when it was offered for shirt buttons ,8 years ago? :Cry:

I don't want to sell but in the current economic situation where money in the bank returns little & with out work,income or pensions it's wise to explore all avenues.


----------



## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> baldilocks said:
> 
> 
> > AND they have to be fully legal in their country of registration and that includes MoT and VEL - in most cases they are not and, not only are they illegal in that respect, as a consequence, their insurance is invalid too!
> ...


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

anles said:


> mrypg9 said:
> 
> 
> > If you don't live in Mallorca yourself, and you bought your car legally, why are paying road tax there? When you buy a car, the vendor has to pay the current year's road tax. If it has not yet been issued, they have to go to the town hall and acquire it. That means that year's road tax has been paid to the previous owner's council. The following year, it will be issued by the council where the buyer resides.
> ...


----------



## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> anles said:
> 
> 
> > No, I do not live in Mallorca. Yes, I bought my car legally, from a reputable UK dealer with Spanish plates and all necessary paperwork complete. Yes, the owner paid tax in Mallorca to the date when she drove it to the UK and sold it there.
> ...


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

anles said:


> mrypg9 said:
> 
> 
> > Quite obviously, the paperwork was not correct. The change doesn't happen in January, it happens when the car is legally transferred to the new owner and it is not the responsibility of the council of Mallorca, it's to do with tráfico. If the car is still registered in the previous owner's name any offence to do with car ownership, i.e no ITV, incorrect paperwork, etc means the previous owner is still liable. I can see why you don't care a monkey's... but I'm very surprised the previous owner doesn't. Besides which if the IVTM is still in their name and you just don't pay it, they would face the consequences.
> ...


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

I should perhaps say that the fact that I bought the car in November 2008, tax paid for that year and brought it here in December 2008, went to gestor in 2009 may clarify things somewhat?


----------



## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> I should perhaps say that the fact that I bought the car in November 2008, tax paid for that year and brought it here in December 2008, went to gestor in 2009 may clarify things somewhat?


No it doesn't. As I previously said, it is not the Ayuntamiento Mallorquin who is responsible for the paperwork but it is tráfico who notifies the councils of the "altas" and "bajas" of vehicles. It's true that for tax purposes, the data "updated" when they are ready to issue the IVTM therefore if for example you have paid road tax for the whole year and during the year you get the car definitely, not temporarily, "de baja" you have to take proof of this to claim back the proportional amount. In a previous post you said, the car for some unexplained reason was still registered in the previous owner's name with Mallorca although in a later post you say the IVTM is in your name. If you are not on the Padrón in Mallorca, it's hard to see how this could occur. The reason you have to provide a certificate of "empadronamiento" when you register a car is to stop people from paying their taxes in cheaper municipalities. One explanation for this would be that the owner never exported the car from Spain prior to selling it in the UK which she should have done, then when it was re-imported you would have provided your certificate and it would have been registered in your name in your municipality. I am only pointing out to you that the tranferencia is not correct. It neither bothers me nor makes any difference to me. My only aim is to let you know that the situation is not correct because to quote yourself:
At the end of the day, people are adults and make their own decisions. As you rightly infer, many people come unstuck. 
But that is their bad luck. They should perhaps have listened to wiser counsel but in my experience people generally do what they want to do, just as they believe what they want to believe. We can only point out the error of their ways but it's usually a waste of time.
I have only posted because I have some friends who are in a similar situation and two years later are still unable to sort out the problem with tráfico as they never exported their car to the UK and they still are paying road tax on a car they sold almost two years ago. The whole point of the forum is to advise on certain matters when you can so you can avoid other people making the same mistakes.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

anles said:


> No it doesn't. As I previously said, it is not the Ayuntamiento Mallorquin who is responsible for the paperwork but it is tráfico who notifies the councils of the "altas" and "bajas" of vehicles. It's true that for tax purposes, the data "updated" when they are ready to issue the IVTM therefore if for example you have paid road tax for the whole year and during the year you get the car definitely, not temporarily, "de baja" you have to take proof of this to claim back the proportional amount. In a previous post you said, the car for some unexplained reason was still registered in the previous owner's name with Mallorca although in a later post you say the IVTM is in your name. If you are not on the Padrón in Mallorca, it's hard to see how this could occur. The reason you have to provide a certificate of "empadronamiento" when you register a car is to stop people from paying their taxes in cheaper municipalities. One explanation for this would be that the owner never exported the car from Spain prior to selling it in the UK which she should have done, then when it was re-imported you would have provided your certificate and it would have been registered in your name in your municipality. I am only pointing out to you that the tranferencia is not correct. It neither bothers me nor makes any difference to me. My only aim is to let you know that the situation is not correct because to quote yourself:
> At the end of the day, people are adults and make their own decisions. As you rightly infer, many people come unstuck.
> But that is their bad luck. They should perhaps have listened to wiser counsel but in my experience people generally do what they want to do, just as they believe what they want to believe. We can only point out the error of their ways but it's usually a waste of time.
> I have only posted because I have some friends who are in a similar situation and two years later are still unable to sort out the problem with tráfico as they never exported their car to the UK and they still are paying road tax on a car they sold almost two years ago. The whole point of the forum is to advise on certain matters when you can so you can avoid other people making the same mistakes.


The Spanish equivalent of the logbook is in my name and at my current address. The IVTM is in my name but my address is recorded as being that of the previous owner, who sold it to the UK Company with all necessary documents signed and dated. 
The gestor tells me that this is an error on the part of the authorities somewhere. 
It will be rectified next year. Maybe it had something to do with the time lag between vehicle being exported from Spain and re-imported? Or just simple clerical error on someone's part?
The 'wiser counsel' must, faut de mieux, come from the well-regarded gestor I use.
The point is this: the vehicle is registered in my name. I have paid the transfer tax required. Tax has been paid by me for the last year and this year's will be on Monday. I have a document from the gestor explaining the situation and a receipt for last year's tax paid. The vehicle has an ITV not due to expire until late next year. My licence is in order although I am changing to a Spanish one.
I can't see where I could come 'unstuck' or indeed what needs to be done that hasn't been done. All will be put right next year.
Because the process seemed so complex I decided to hand the matter over to the gestor, as I do with other things, as the fee is generally worth the avoidance of hassle. Many people who do what they want to do and disregard advice either listen to advice from the wrong quarter, lack judgment and don't do their homework thoroughly. I did my homework by investigating what was required but as I said was put off doing it myself.
Your friends have clearly come up against a dishonourable person who has avoided paying what it is their responsibility to pay. Sad but there are people like that around, I guess.


----------



## mrypg9 (Apr 26, 2008)

It occurs to me that I have no idea whether the previous owner notified the authorities that the vehicle had been exported and reimported. Maybe, maybe not. I never thought about it until you mentioned it and the question was never asked by the gestor who I suppose assumed it had remained in the country after a couple of weeks in the CR.. 
But it makes no material difference to my situation. If I am stopped by the police, I have all the documents required. The previous owner could be in China for all I know and even if I could,I most certainly have no intention of piling up fines or debts in her name.


----------



## anles (Feb 11, 2009)

mrypg9 said:


> The Spanish equivalent of the logbook is in my name and at my current address. The IVTM is in my name but my address is recorded as being that of the previous owner, who sold it to the UK Company with all necessary documents signed and dated.
> The gestor tells me that this is an error on the part of the authorities somewhere.
> It will be rectified next year. Maybe it had something to do with the time lag between vehicle being exported from Spain and re-imported? Or just simple clerical error on someone's part?
> The 'wiser counsel' must, faut de mieux, come from the well-regarded gestor I use.
> ...


I suppose I take for granted how easy it is to understand how well most things work here, for me it's simple and obvious, yes, it maybe does involve a little more paperwork, but the end result is that there are no mistakes. Your gestor should know, and should be able to explain the problem, it is not the "authorities" neither Mallorca nor the council where you live... it is tráfico who communicates the transfers... although I can see that maybe this may be a little hard to understand for someone who has not been here so long, it's simple. And you yourself, even if you don't understand the process, must have realised that you cannot logically appear as living at another address in another council, in this case even, in a different autonomous community!! My friends were not taken in by any dishonest person, as I explained they themselves sold the car in the UK, but they omitted to export it prior to leaving Spain, a very simple process in easily and quickly resolved in tráfico. Now, although they have "legally" sold the car in the UK, there is no record of this transaction with tráfico where the car is still registered as being in Spain in their council in their name. This must be what the previous owner of your car also failed to do, but you have far less problem as you and the car are in Spain, and you have original documents.


----------

