# severance pay for housekeeper



## Guest

I've read through Rolly's treatise on Labor Law, and now want to confirm with the experts here. I have had a housekeeper who comes in twice a week. I pay her 500 pesos a week. She has always taken and been paid for her vacation time, and she has already used her vacation time for this year. She has had her own IMSS coverage through her husband's job.

If I am doing my calculations correctly, I owe her the following:

*Christmas aguinaldo:* 500 pesos X 2.14 = 1,070 pesos. (I realize that it will be a month short of the full year, but will pay the Christmas bonus for the full year).

*Severance/ liquidation:* I will owe her 3 months + 100 days pay. (20 days per year worked)

500 pesos per week divided by 7 = 71.43 pesos per day
71.43 pesos per day X 100 days = 7,143 pesos *PLUS*
3 months pay = 500 pesos per week X 13 weeks = 6500 pesos.

*Total due = 1070 pesos + 7143 pesos + 6500 pesos = total of 14,713 pesos.*

I should have a lawyer write up a letter/agreement for her to sign, agreeing and accepting this payment to avoid any future surprises. I wll check my figures with an accountant, but am trying to get the number correct in advance so I can be prepared with that amount of cash and pay her what is due, and be done with it. How'd I do?


----------



## TundraGreen

Interesting. You obviously consider her an employee and not a contractor. Does she have an employment contract with you.

I found somewhere a description of the difference between an employee and a contractor.

Here are some signs of an employment relationship:
 Performing duties for a single client
 Payments based on time and not deliverables
 The contractor/employee is required to be at the client’s site on a fixed schedule

Signs of a contractor relationship include:
 Providing services to multiple clients
 Payments based on deliverables
 The contractor is not required to perform all duties at the client site unless it is
required to deliver. For example, as in the case of an electrical installation or the installation of a production line.

My housekeeper works for me one day a week. She has four different sites where she works. Her pay from me every week is for the cleaning job, not for a specific number of hours of work. There is no fixed schedule. It is generally the same day every week, but it varies when I travel or need to do something different. I consider her a contractor and would not feel obligated to pay any of the fees you describe except the annual aguinaldo. Am I wrong?


----------



## Guest

Tundra, given the labor laws in MX, I don't think that dog will hunt (contractor vs employee). I need to wait until Tuesday to find out for sure, but I'll let you know what the accountant and abogado tell me then....


----------



## johnmex

As Tundra has mentioned a cleaning woman is not an employee but a contractor and not eligilbe for severance pay, nor for paid vacation time.

Unless you have been formally registered with the IMSS as her "patrón" or have been paying her by any other method than cash, she has no legal foundation to be able to "sue" you.

IF you want to pay her out of the goodness of your heart, go ahead. But do not feel obligated to do so.


----------



## TundraGreen

GringoCArlos said:


> Tundra, given the labor laws in MX, I don't think that dog will hunt (contractor vs employee). I need to wait until Tuesday to find out for sure, but I'll let you know what the accountant and abogado tell me then....


I will be interested to hear what they say.


----------



## Rodrigo84

I've known a few expats down here that have had hired help, but in the case where they clean once or twice a week, every one of them I have known has given the aguinaldo and also paid them at least for the current month and one additional month (I think most was three). The people who cleaned also visited numerous households.

My cousin was the one who paid the aguinaldo and the three months (along with the remainder of the month that she was working in).


----------



## Guest

Sooo, I did go and visit an abogado on Tuesday. She was a specialist in Commercial Law but did also know Labor Law. Her advice? Go to the local Secretaria de Trabajo office first thing the next morning and ask them for an assessment of my responsibilities.

I trotted on down to the Secretaria de Trabajo this morning. I was then directed upstairs to the office of the Procurador de la Defensa del Trabajo. Got answers, but y'all might not like them, or they may not be entirely correct (although if I go straight to the horse's mouth, why wouldn't they be correct? )
*
Here's the scoop: under Mexican Labor Law, if the cleaning lady works in my house 1 day, or 2 days, or 6 days a week on a regular basis, she's considered to be my employee, with or without any written contract, with or without set hours of work, and is NOT considered to be a contractor. If she also works for other people in their homes every week, there is a shared responsibility with her as a shared employee.*

Under Mexican Labor Law, she is entitled to receive paid vacations, Christmas aguinaldo, and severance pay. We never discussed IMSS, but in my case my cleaning lady already had this through her husband's job.

According to my little socialist friend in the Labor office, the best way to part ways is for all parties to meet there in the Labor offices to exchange money, sign a Dear John letter, and gain closure. He also said that I could engage the services of an abogado who specializes in Labor Law to represent me, as he said the job of the Procurador was only the defense of employee's rights. Another option he suggested was to contact the Sindico de Patrones (imagine an Employer's Union, but I can now understand the need for one.)

I will try to find a Labor attorney who specializes in all aspects of the Labor Law, and doesn't just specialize in screwing over employers. That might take some time. 

The only future alternative I can think of is hiring a cleaning lady just for one day of work and then finding someone else for one day of work the next time the house needs cleaning. I prefer living in a dirty house before cleaning it myself, having another "employee" or finding another wife. 

Merry Christmas to all !


----------



## Isla Verde

GringoCArlos said:


> The only future alternative I can think of is hiring a cleaning lady just for one day of work and then finding someone else for one day of work the next time the house needs cleaning. I prefer living in a dirty house before cleaning it myself, having another "employee" or finding another wife.
> 
> Merry Christmas to all !


Even if you find another wife, there's no guarantee she will be happy cleaning your house all by herself. !


----------



## jasavak

*14,713 pesos.*



GringoCArlos said:


> I've read through Rolly's treatise on Labor Law, and now want to confirm with the experts here. I have had a housekeeper who comes in twice a week. I pay her 500 pesos a week. She has always taken and been paid for her vacation time, and she has already used her vacation time for this year. She has had her own IMSS coverage through her husband's job.
> 
> If I am doing my calculations correctly, I owe her the following:
> 
> *Christmas aguinaldo:* 500 pesos X 2.14 = 1,070 pesos. (I realize that it will be a month short of the full year, but will pay the Christmas bonus for the full year).
> 7
> *Severance/ liquidation:* I will owe her 3 months + 100 days pay. (20 days per year worked)
> 
> 500 pesos per week divided by 7 = 71.43 pesos per day
> 71.43 pesos per day X 100 days = 7,143 pesos *PLUS*
> 3 months pay = 500 pesos per week X 13 weeks = 6500 pesos.
> 
> *Total due = 1070 pesos + 7143 pesos + 6500 pesos = total of 14,713 pesos.*
> 
> I should have a lawyer write up a letter/agreement for her to sign, agreeing and accepting this payment to avoid any future surprises. I wll check my figures with an accountant, but am trying to get the number correct in advance so I can be prepared with that amount of cash and pay her what is due, and be done with it. How'd I do?



I guarantee no one else would pay $14,713 pesos . Most people probably would give $1,000- $5,000 and she would be happy .


----------



## AlanMexicali

*Severence pay*



jasavak said:


> I guarantee no one else would pay $14,713 pesos . Most people probably would give $1,000- $5,000 and she would be happy .


I have a friend in Mexicali who is a backhoe operator. His boss gave him by the usual calculations $17,500 pesos severance pay. He worked 5 1/2 days a week 9 hours a day for 10 or more years there. He was happy and told me he has heard of people getting nothing and the system does nothing about it. His average pay clear was $1,750 pesos weekly and when working overtime, especially on Sat. afternoon or working on a Sunday, he got depending on how long about $500.00 pesos extra which would include a 9 hour Sunday.


----------



## jasavak

*Severance pay*



AlanMexicali said:


> I have a friend in Mexicali who is a backhoe operator. His boss gave him by the usual calculations $17,500 pesos severance pay. He worked 5 1/2 days a week 9 hours a day for 10 or more years there. He was happy and told me he has heard of people getting nothing and the system does nothing about it. His average pay clear was $1,750 pesos weekly and when working overtime, especially on Sat. afternoon or working on a Sunday, he got depending on how long about $500.00 pesos extra which would include a 9 hour Sunday.



If we use the original post calculation, the part time cleaning lady is calculated at nearly $15,000 for two days a week . This means he should have received $50,000 pesos . It's not my money and I don't know what the poster is comfortable paying , but I believe the cleaning lady will be surprised and very pleased with $5,000 .


----------



## AlanMexicali

*Maids pay.*



jasavak said:


> If we use the original post calculation, the part time cleaning lady is calculated at nearly $15,000 for two days a week . This means he should have received $50,000 pesos . It's not my money and I don't know what the poster is comfortable paying , but I believe the cleaning lady will be surprised and very pleased with $5,000 .



$500.00 pesos a week is high here. The maid in my wife's parent's house in San Luis Potosi gets $750.00 pesos for 6 9 hour days , free meals and $3,000 pesos at Christmas plus 2 weeks paid vacation. She does all the cooking. The other 2 part time maids get less per hour than she does. She has been there 7 or 8 years years.


I feel no manual labor job will give anyone severance pay more than 10 weeks take home pay, if that, unless they wanted to.


----------



## Rodrigo84

I asked my cousin about what he did when the maid went on vacation, he told me she asked for 2 weeks and he did pay her salary for those two weeks. There was nothing to be cleaned those 2 weeks, because he also went away for Christmas for two weeks.

She also told him some horror stories about other tenants in his apartment building who hardly paid anything to her. He actually intervened on her behalf since he knew some of the people.

One thing he wouldn't do, and I remember this now, was that he had another maid before, and that maid actually asked him for 5000 pesos in advance salary. He said no because he had no guarantee that the person would not just take the money and never be heard from again.


----------



## jasavak

*Tug of War*



Rodrigo84 said:


> I asked my cousin about what he did when the maid went on vacation, he told me she asked for 2 weeks and he did pay her salary for those two weeks. There was nothing to be cleaned those 2 weeks, because he also went away for Christmas for two weeks.
> 
> She also told him some horror stories about other tenants in his apartment building who hardly paid anything to her. He actually intervened on her behalf since he knew some of the people.
> 
> One thing he wouldn't do, and I remember this now, was that he had another maid before, and that maid actually asked him for 5000 pesos in advance salary. He said no because he had no guarantee that the person would not just take the money and never be heard from again.


 
Sometimes the employers try to take advantage and other times it's the employees .


----------



## TundraGreen

Rodrigo84 said:


> ...
> One thing he wouldn't do, and I remember this now, was that he had another maid before, and that maid actually asked him for 5000 pesos in advance salary. He said no because he had no guarantee that the person would not just take the money and never be heard from again.


My housekeeper occasionally asks for pay a week in advance (she works one day a week for me). The first time it happened I had some trepidations about it, so raised the issue for discussion here. Most of the advice was to not give advances. The problem is that the employee will sometimes quit rather than work without pay to pay off the advance. However, I gave her a day's pay in advance anyway. Since then it has happened several times. She always accepts the reduced pay the following week and it has never been a problem. Generally, it seems like it happens when she needs extra money for some unusual expense. Once it was because school was starting and she needed money for school supplies for her nephew whom she raises.


----------



## jasavak

*Minor Debt vs. Major Debt*



TundraGreen said:


> My housekeeper occasionally asks for pay a week in advance (she works one day a week for me). The first time it happened I had some trepidations about it, so raised the issue for discussion here. Most of the advice was to not give advances. The problem is that the employee will sometimes quit rather than work without pay to pay off the advance. However, I gave her a day's pay in advance anyway. Since then it has happened several times. She always accepts the reduced pay the following week and it has never been a problem. Generally, it seems like it happens when she needs extra money for some unusual expense. Once it was because school was starting and she needed money for school supplies for her nephew whom she raises.




I think the more they owe , the less likely they will return . If they owe 5 weeks salary , it might be easier for them to take the money and look for another job . It's a quick and easy way to add equity to their bottom line . The same reason people walk away from an upside down mortgage even when they can afford the payments .


----------



## TundraGreen

jasavak said:


> I think the more they owe , the less likely they will return . If they owe 5 weeks salary , it might be easier for them to take the money and look for another job . It's a quick and easy way to add equity to their bottom line . The same reason people walk away from an upside down mortgage even when they can afford the payments .


I agree, although in my case, my housekeeper is already underemployed. So I don't think she will be too quick to walk away. She frequently asks me if I know anyone else that needs help. She only has four days a week now and would like to have six.


----------



## jasavak

it al depends on the situation . We had an employee that was having trouble with transportation so we gave her a good deal on a car with almost zero down . Two months later she blew the engine and quit the job because she didn't want to pay the debt anymore .


----------



## dongringo

GringoCArlos 
I am curious on how this winds up settled. 
I recently terminated a 7 year worker and unofficially gave him 1000 pesos for each work year. 
One of my step daughters is a labor lawyer, and tells me she would get my hide, if the worker gave her the case.


----------



## RVGRINGO

'Unofficially' is as good as 'not at all'. In terminating an employee, you need to have them sign off and indicate what they have been paid; including a statement that you owe them nothing more. A lawyer or an accountant can prepare the forms.
If an employee fails to show up for work, it is wise to report that to the 'labor office', in writing; again, use a lawyer or accountant.


----------



## dongringo

RVGRINGO said:


> 'Unofficially' is as good as 'not at all'. In terminating an employee, you need to have them sign off and indicate what they have been paid; including a statement that you owe them nothing more. A lawyer or an accountant can prepare the forms.
> If an employee fails to show up for work, it is wise to report that to the 'labor office', in writing; again, use a lawyer or accountant.


Do you seriously believe that I should spend half a day in one of those stupid offices of institutions in Mexico to report that my maid or other worker did not show up for work?

Most of us who hire local people do so on a cash basis, and fire and hire them at will. I realize that Mexico has extraordinarily strong laws to protect its workers in official positions. So of course more than half of the Mexican labor force is unofficial without an iota of protection. If I paid my "unofficial" worker x pesos for x years of work, I consider that a gesture of good will, not an obligation.


----------



## pappabee

Again we must remember that a very large number of Mexicans employed on a part-time basis are those hired by Expats. It seems to me that the Mexican government takes a very harsh view of how we treat these workers. Maybe because so many were abuse (almost to slavery) years in the past. 

It may cost us a little more but it's still a lot less than spending time in a Mexican jail or having to pay a very large fine. We must follow the requirements of the law and as in all things dealing with governments, protect our own a---s.

I have heard some horror stories about part-time help going to the government and getting their former employers into a really big 'kettle of fish' just because the employer didn't follow one or more of the rules.


----------



## Isla Verde

pappabee said:


> Again we must remember that a very large number of Mexicans employed on a part-time basis are those hired by Expats. It seems to me that the Mexican government takes a very harsh view of how we treat these workers.
> 
> It may cost us a little more but it's still a lot less than spending time in a Mexican jail or having to pay a very large fine. We must follow the requirements of the law and as in all things dealing with governments, protect our own a---s.
> 
> I have heard some horror stories about part-time help going to the government and getting their former employers into a really big 'kettle of fish' just because the employer didn't follow one or more of the rules.


Apart from following the law, Mexicans who work for us cleaning, gardening, etc. should be treated well because it's the right thing to do!


----------



## Pancho

Part of the answer is why your employee is leaving. IF she is leaving on her own she is only entitled to the aguanaldo and any vacation pay. Ditto if she is leaving due to a breach of trust or for not doing here job… provided this has been documented. We just had a 3 year employee leave for a better paying position and our accountant calculated that we owed her just over 2 weeks pay. We had a gardener leave a couple of years ago and even though he quit on his own accord, he took us to the labor board and said we fired him. We offered him the job back which he refused. The judge split the difference and we paid him six weeks salary. Our accountant told us that had we registered his leaving before he filed a complaint we would have been in the clear. Had we said we did not want him back we would have had to pay three months plus. In many cases this really depends on the judge in charge of conciliation.


----------



## RVGRINGO

An improperly dismissed employee may come back years later and get a very large settlement, including wages for those years.


----------



## that chicka

I am leaving Mexico this summer. I have a maid that comes 2 times per week and has worked for me for 2 years. I plan to leave mid July. I want to get rid of her now. She is moving my things around and hiding things that she wants. I am sure she is already stealing from me. When I ask her about why I am finding my crystal or other expensive items in weird places she just giggles. 

I am in the process of selling many things and so she has been "setting aside" things that she wants and normally she tells me and I agree. Some things of value she is paying/trading work for and other things I am just giving to her. Finding these "hidden things" has pissed me off to no end. 

I want to fire her this next week, but want to know the best way to go about it. She gets 250 pesos per day when she shows up. She is supposed to work 2 days per week but some times depending on her kids she only comes once. I have never paid her vacation. But I did give her xmas anuldo. She is running around my house with mucho prisa and I just can't handle it anymore. She is pressuring me about wanting my TVs an electronics and after finding all the stuff she hid over the weekend.. when she comes on Tuesday I want the best way of telling her bye don't let the door hit you on the way out. 

So how much do I have to "pay" her for this??


----------



## conklinwh

This has all the trappings of a disaster if you aren't very formal. Monday I would be in a lawyers office working out the paperwork to have everything in place by Tuesday.


----------



## Guest

that chicka said:


> I am leaving Mexico this summer. I have a maid that comes 2 times per week and has worked for me for 2 years. I plan to leave mid July. I want to get rid of her now. She is moving my things around and hiding things that she wants. I am sure she is already stealing from me. When I ask her about why I am finding my crystal or other expensive items in weird places she just giggles.
> 
> I am in the process of selling many things and so she has been "setting aside" things that she wants and normally she tells me and I agree. Some things of value she is paying/trading work for and other things I am just giving to her. Finding these "hidden things" has pissed me off to no end.
> 
> I want to fire her this next week, but want to know the best way to go about it. She gets 250 pesos per day when she shows up. She is supposed to work 2 days per week but some times depending on her kids she only comes once. I have never paid her vacation. But I did give her xmas anuldo. She is running around my house with mucho prisa and I just can't handle it anymore. She is pressuring me about wanting my TVs an electronics and after finding all the stuff she hid over the weekend.. when she comes on Tuesday I want the best way of telling her bye don't let the door hit you on the way out.
> 
> So how much do I have to "pay" her for this??


Go to a labor lawyer on MONDAY (and be aware that there are labor lawyers for "employees" and labor lawyers for "patrones". Follow their advice and do it on Tuesday.


----------



## Guest

dongringo said:


> GringoCArlos
> I am curious on how this winds up settled.
> I recently terminated a 7 year worker and unofficially gave him 1000 pesos for each work year.
> One of my step daughters is a labor lawyer, and tells me she would get my hide, if the worker gave her the case.


From my experience: Under the law, anyone who works for you is an "employee", whether it's one day a week or 6 days per week. There is no such animal as a contractor working as a housekeeper under MX Labor Law. If they work for other people, they have multiple employers. Anyone who says otherwise is either ignorant or full of BS. And as a foreigner, it really doesn't matter what your MX friends or family do or get away with. Of course, there is "the law" and there is "the practice". 

If you get in a beef with an employee, guess what? Their attorney is going to march out "the law" and you might be in trouble. During any negotiations to settle things, "the practice" will be used by your attorney to reduce the amount to be paid, but it will still be higher than what you imagined in your head.

I'm not going to give details about my case here. It was a criminal matter. In the end after many many months of crap, we ended up with an agreement and it all went away (except for more grey hairs and loss of many nights of sleep).

Under MX laws, it doesn't matter if a criminal act is involved, because Labor Law is a separate issue and any criminal issues don't affect the labor issues here. Be warned.

If an employee stops showing up for work, you need to determine that you no longer want them working for you. Under MX Labor Law, the employer needs to go to the Tribunal Laboral and report that your employee hasn't shown up and apparently has abandoned their post. 

*You as the employer only have 30 DAYS* *from the first day they stopped showing up for work to make this report. * *After that, the law is on their side, and you're gonna pay.* This is easier done using a labor lawyer to do it for you and to get a magic number for the amount to be paid to the employee. Fail to do this, and you will be in a world of hurt. Under the law, they're still on the payroll until it's finally settled. If that is a year or two from now, how much will you pay in the end, as well as any fines to the Tribunal Laboral?

Note: The Tribunal Laboral is not there to protect you as an employer. They only function to protect employees. Any employer is obviously rich enough to get their own damn lawyer for the matter. There seem to be labor lawyers that specialize in employees (read as "victims") and other labor lawyers that specialize in Patrones (read as "rich evil employers").

Sure, you can pay employees whatever you want to pay as severance or what you think you can get away with. *If they accept your payment, have them sign a dated letter written in Spanish saying they are accepting it as payment in full. CYA.*



Sleep well and be safe.



-


----------



## Detailman

GringoCArlos said:


> From my experience: Under the law, anyone who works for you is an "employee", whether it's one day a week or 6 days per week. There is no such animal as a contractor working as a housekeeper under MX Labor Law. If they work for other people, they have multiple employers. Anyone who says otherwise is either ignorant or full of BS. And as a foreigner, it really doesn't matter what your MX friends or family do or get away with. Of course, there is "the law" and there is "the practice".
> 
> If you get in a beef with an employee, guess what? Their attorney is going to march out "the law" and you might be in trouble. During any negotiations to settle things, "the practice" will be used by your attorney to reduce the amount to be paid, but it will still be higher than what you imagined in your head.
> 
> I'm not going to give details about my case here. It was a criminal matter. In the end after many many months of crap, we ended up with an agreement and it all went away (except for more grey hairs and loss of many nights of sleep).
> 
> Under MX laws, it doesn't matter if a criminal act is involved, because Labor Law is a separate issue and any criminal issues don't affect the labor issues here. Be warned.
> 
> If an employee stops showing up for work, you need to determine that you no longer want them working for you. Under MX Labor Law, the employer needs to go to the Tribunal Laboral and report that your employee hasn't shown up and apparently has abandoned their post.
> 
> *You as the employer only have 30 DAYS* *from the first day they stopped showing up for work to make this report. **After that, the law is on their side, and you're gonna pay.* This is easier done using a labor lawyer to do it for you and to get a magic number for the amount to be paid to the employee. Fail to do this, and you will be in a world of hurt. Under the law, they're still on the payroll until it's finally settled. If that is a year or two from now, how much will you pay in the end, as well as any fines to the Tribunal Laboral?
> 
> Note: The Tribunal Laboral is not there to protect you as an employer. They only function to protect employees. Any employer is obviously rich enough to get their own damn lawyer for the matter. There seem to be labor lawyers that specialize in employees (read as "victims") and other labor lawyers that specialize in Patrones (read as "rich evil employers").
> 
> Sure, you can pay employees whatever you want to pay as severance or what you think you can get away with. *If they accept your payment, have them sign a dated letter written in Spanish saying they are accepting it as payment in full. CYA.*
> 
> 
> 
> Sleep well and be safe.
> 
> 
> 
> -


GringoCArlos:

Thank you for such a well worded warning. I will file it away for future reference. I appreciate your willingness to share your experience.

I have over 30 years experience in dealing with varying legalities and if there is one thing I have learned - cover your a**!!

For those times that you say: "I don't think I need to do this in this particular case" -- - you find at a later date that you are missing a big bite out of your a**.

Some people will never listen to advice such as you give and eventually they will pay the price and become a disciple. Some of us have already learned our lessons. But how easy it is to slip into complacency and say: "I don't think I need to do ...."

:clap2:


----------



## La Osita

Sh*t, I think I'm glad that I'm poor and I clean my own house!


----------



## circle110

itnavell said:


> Sh*t, I think I'm glad that I'm poor and I clean my own house!


You took the words (and asterisk) right out of my mouth!


----------



## Isla Verde

itnavell said:


> Sh*t, I think I'm glad that I'm poor and I clean my own house!


Me too, though in my case it's a very small apartment, which cuts down on the cleaning time!


----------



## Sanfro

that chicka said:


> I am leaving Mexico this summer. I have a maid that comes 2 times per week and has worked for me for 2 years. I plan to leave mid July. I want to get rid of her now. She is moving my things around and hiding things that she wants. I am sure she is already stealing from me. When I ask her about why I am finding my crystal or other expensive items in weird places she just giggles.
> 
> I am in the process of selling many things and so she has been "setting aside" things that she wants and normally she tells me and I agree. Some things of value she is paying/trading work for and other things I am just giving to her. Finding these "hidden things" has pissed me off to no end.
> 
> I want to fire her this next week, but want to know the best way to go about it. She gets 250 pesos per day when she shows up. She is supposed to work 2 days per week but some times depending on her kids she only comes once. I have never paid her vacation. But I did give her xmas anuldo. She is running around my house with mucho prisa and I just can't handle it anymore. She is pressuring me about wanting my TVs an electronics and after finding all the stuff she hid over the weekend.. when she comes on Tuesday I want the best way of telling her bye don't let the door hit you on the way out.
> 
> So how much do I have to "pay" her for this??


 If she is stealing from you , I would keep paying her the 250 pesos for cleaning until the day you skip town and call it even . I really don't think she would be upset over losing a $20 a week job .


----------



## Detailman

Sanfro said:


> If she is stealing from you , I would keep paying her the 250 pesos for cleaning until the day you skip town and call it even . I really don't think she would be upset over losing a $20 a week job .


I don't think I would ever recommend circumventing proper procedure. A person may want to return to Mexico and you just never know what paper record may be left behind due to your actions. Not worth it, IMHO.


----------



## mickisue1

Detailman said:


> I don't think I would ever recommend circumventing proper procedure. A person may want to return to Mexico and you just never know what paper record may be left behind due to your actions. Not worth it, IMHO.


+1

Doing things the right way rarely backfires.

Doing it the wrong way frequently does.


----------



## ptrichmondmike

What an interesting and valuable thread...one of the reasons this is such a great forum.

So, lazy old me has been dreaming about having a twice-weekly maid...lol. Now I'm wondering if it would not be better to seek a job AS a maid.


----------



## conklinwh

Chica, I think that we are all interested in how this plays out so updates greatly appreciated.


----------



## pappabee

mickisue1 said:


> +1
> 
> Doing things the right way rarely backfires.
> 
> Doing it the wrong way frequently does.


I don't know how many times its been said on this site that we're in Mexico and therefore we must abide by it's rules. 

The big problem is that you hear about people who don't and don't get caught and you think, Hot D-m I can do that also. Then you get caught and who's to blame? 

Follow the rules, play the safe game and enjoy your life here.:eyebrows:


----------



## RVGRINGO

If it concerns you, consider using a cleaning service. The maids are employed by them, not you.


----------



## conorkilleen

Sanfro said:


> If she is stealing from you , I would keep paying her the 250 pesos for cleaning until the day you skip town and call it even . I really don't think she would be upset over losing a $20 a week job .


SHE'S WHAT? hooooo hooooo! I hate thieves. I would confront her and tell her not to hide any of your stuff and if she giggled in my face about why she hid stuff, I would put her out on her butt.


----------



## Detailman

conorkilleen said:


> SHE'S WHAT? hooooo hooooo! I hate thieves. I would confront her and tell her not to hide any of your stuff and if she giggled in my face about why she hid stuff, I would put her out on her butt.


I have had a few instances where people were being very dishonest. One was an assistant bank manager and I felt the need to wear a miniature microphone linked to a mini tape recorder to record my questions and the answers I received in the office. (Did they ever condemn themselves by what they said. It was all I needed.)

Not always legal to tape someone without their permission but you can at least make notes based on your recording of who said what. Secondary benefit is that if you let them know what you have recorded it can get them to back up in any negative position they were "going" to take.

Have to admit I don't know the legalities of this in Mexico but again I say that I do not believe it is legal to use in a court of law in Canada without their permission (have never needed to check this out because the very fact I had it worked on a number of occasions) but you can still use if for making notes of the conversation and it is a tool to intimidate.

So perhaps tape, without her knowledge, your questions/accusations and her replies.

(But you do so at your own risk. Perhaps someone will give a legal reason why this should not be done in Mexico in which case I will defer to their expertise.)


----------



## 146028

that chicka said:


> I am leaving Mexico this summer. I have a maid that comes 2 times per week and has worked for me for 2 years. I plan to leave mid July. I want to get rid of her now. She is moving my things around and hiding things that she wants. I am sure she is already stealing from me. When I ask her about why I am finding my crystal or other expensive items in weird places she just giggles.
> 
> I am in the process of selling many things and so she has been "setting aside" things that she wants and normally she tells me and I agree. Some things of value she is paying/trading work for and other things I am just giving to her. Finding these "hidden things" has pissed me off to no end.
> 
> I want to fire her this next week, but want to know the best way to go about it. She gets 250 pesos per day when she shows up. She is supposed to work 2 days per week but some times depending on her kids she only comes once. I have never paid her vacation. But I did give her xmas anuldo. She is running around my house with mucho prisa and I just can't handle it anymore. She is pressuring me about wanting my TVs an electronics and after finding all the stuff she hid over the weekend.. when she comes on Tuesday I want the best way of telling her bye don't let the door hit you on the way out.
> 
> So how much do I have to "pay" her for this??


That sounds like a horrible position to be in. I personally wouldn't tolerate any of this kind of behavior. First offense, and I would demand that she pays for what she stole and then, after she pays, she would be fired. I agree with whoever said before "I hate thieves."

I wouldn't even be in that situation in the first place though. One day, when I return to Mexico, I will do everything myself as far as cleaning goes. I could probably hire people but I am way too paranoid to just let someone inside my house with the potential to go through my things.


----------



## RVGRINGO

We've always had a maid, and her extended family, look after our home and even stay there when we travel. We also have occasional tradesmen working here. We come and go normally & have done so for a decade. Trust is much more pleasant than paranoia. We've never missed a centavo. We respect them and they respect us.


----------



## La Osita

It sound like it's just a simple lesson in being very careful when hiring. But it isn't always so easy when interviewing someone to discern either their honesty or trustworthiness. If I were to hire any sort of worker, I suppose I would choose to remain at the house while they were working until I had a much clearer sense of their trustworthiness.


----------



## RVGRINGO

Yes, we are fortunate to have people who came to us recommended by good Mexican friends or other tradespeople, who we trust completely.


----------



## Isla Verde

RVGRINGO said:


> Yes, we are fortunate to have people who came to us recommended by good Mexican friends or other tradespeople, who we trust completely.


Me too! Recommendations are the way to go.


----------



## that chicka

Hey guys.. I peeved!!! The lawyer I have is not the right type of lawyer. I just got a recommendation for the right type and sent an email just now. There is an expat group here and apparently there is a lawyer that gives a talk to them once a year and so I sent a message to him. 

Anyhow last weekend I checked over my house and noticed a lot of things. She had a lot of grocery bags tied up in odd places under stairs, beside the washer, under the sink in the guest bathroom.. all full of my things!! ARRR!!! Talk about pissed off!!! I took photos. 

I don't know how many times she has walked out with little grocery bags that I thought were trash. So to find hand towels and cloth napkins and pot holders and a bunch of other things all tied up in grocery bags in these places I just lost it. I can't believe this woman!!! 

Most of these things are things I am getting rid of anyways. So this last Sunday I cleared out my house of everything I was planning to donate. Everything. Towels, blankets, dishes, everything. Filled my truck and drove it over to a children's home and dropped it off. All the little grocery bags gone. 

Maid didn't say a word when she arrived. I told her that she is to come on Wednesday because it is the day that I am home. There was a curtain that is missing that I asked where it was because my sister is coming and I would like to hang it up over a bare window in my guest room. She told me she took it down to clean it. Since it isn't in my house I don't know where she took it to clean it. So I will ask her again on Wednesday and I will follow her around until she produces it. 

I am changing the locks on my house because I was stupid enough to give her my keys. I am also missing clothes, some tank tops that I just bought 3 weeks ago when I was in the US. Since again I am home on Wednesdays and I will limit that to the day she is working, I will work with her.. and follow her around until she produces my belongings. If she doesn't like it tough. If she says she is leaving then I will have her sign a document stating that she is leaving. 

I will let you all know what the lawyer says, but I can't imagine paying out severance to someone that is stealing from me. Ask me for something and I will likely give it to you.. steal from me..no no..


----------



## that chicka

Oh and she was someone that was recommended and worked for various friends and again I didn't have problems or notice problems until I said I was moving.. once I said I was moving she seems to be going all out.


----------



## Isla Verde

that chicka said:


> Oh and she was someone that was recommended and worked for various friends and again I didn't have problems or notice problems until I said I was moving.. once I said I was moving she seems to be going all out.


She is a stupid woman. Doesn't she realize that you will tell the person who recommended her plus all your friends about her behavior?


----------



## that chicka

Maybe it is because she worked for mexicans before and I am the first american and so she is just taking full advantage. Mexican's seem to be much harder on their maids than most american's. Well.. steal from me and you will see how much of a ***** I can turn into. 

I swear I am going to follow her around until she produces my clothes and the freaking curtain that she claims that she took down to wash. I get that I bought the same tank tops.. exact same ones.. I like them and I got 2 black ones 2 grey and 2 whites.. that didn't mean she got to keep one of each!! Cause the only thing that made it to my drawers are one of each. So I want an explanation.


----------



## conklinwh

How did you make out with the new lawyer?


----------



## that chicka

I had just emailed him yesterday so he hasn't gotten back to me yet. I suppose that he will get back to me Monday or Tuesday.


----------



## conklinwh

Thanks, I'm really interested in how this plays out. Knock on wood but so far things have worked well but I can see that will probably have an issue in the future.


----------



## that chicka

I guess I won't be shocked if she starts issues. I wasn't expecting her to start stealing so blatantly from me. When her key doesn't work this week will be a big one. I was researching and I will just have a termination form ready for her with some money. I will confront her with asking her to locate my belongings in my house and when she can't I will offer her a severance and have her sign a termination document. I know it will only get worse if I let her stay on till I leave and I don't want the stress of having to follow her around my house. I don't agree with the 2-3 months of salary since she is stealing from me, but from what my immigration lawyer says if she signs the termination agreement and accepts the money and agrees not to sue me further than it would be over. But I want to check that with the labor lawyer first. 

I still don't like the idea of paying to get someone that is stealing from me out of my life.


----------



## that chicka

and when I mean stealing so blatantly.. the curtain is an embroidered curtain.. so she took it down to wash it and didn't put it back up.. and it is no longer in my house.. As if I wouldn't notice a bare window..


----------



## 146028

that chicka said:


> Mexican's seem to be much harder on their maids than most american's.


That's because most people are not afraid of getting sued by their maids. They either don't know or they don't think there is any real risk.

To be honest, I've heard of cases like this before, but the maids never win because they can't prove they worked for whoever they are suing (since there is no contract).


----------



## that chicka

Ok I talked to a lawyer and he is going to come to my house on Wednesday morning and we are going to have her sign a voluntary termination letter. Like she is quitting. I will pay her vacation pay, which I have never paid her before since she was a part time maid. To her it will look like she is receiving money. 

He will inform her that it is known she is stealing from me and she can either sign and accept the money and leave or we will charge her for stealing and start a criminal inquiry on her. This will get her out of my house quickly and without further problems. 

I am still angry and want to yell at her. He is telling me not to. Since he turned out to be a good friend of a friend he isn't going to charge me. Or I just have to cook for him. So that is cool. 

Above poster is correct.. lawyer told me the same thing.. she doesn't have a contract with me. She has no proof how long she has worked for me and she could have a lot more issues if I report her stealing from me. As if anything major is missing from my house, the first suspect is always the maid. 

I will post how it goes on Wednesday.


----------



## La Osita

I'm sure this is a relief to you. It's a very good example of how working with Mexican laws and rules is in everyone's best interest. I hope Wednesday's events bode peaceful for you.


----------



## that chicka

Ok well she is out. She signed a resignation letter. In which she accepted 4000 pesos. The resignation letter states that she is resigning and the money is to clear all payments, anuldos, special payments, vacations holidays and that nothing is owed by either party and that we are parting ways with clear accounts. 

She didn't want to sign the letter at all and then the lawyer told her it was fine that that we would take the money and deposit it at the labor department on her behalf and she could go get it from them. After that she changed her mind. She was concerned about signing anything because it would be admitting guilt on her side for stealing from me. We explained that this was a normal document that comes when finishing any job and is required by law by the labor department. 

She admitted to stealing from me and broke into tears and all. I asked her why she was taking things from my house with out my permission and she said things like she forgot to ask or that she didn't think I was using those items any more and didn't consider it stealing. I asked her why she didn't tell me this when I asked her about the items like the curtain the week prior and she told me because she forgot that she took it. She said over and over she didn't want any money from me at all. We had to insist that she take it. She felt very guilty because she got caught stealing. 

She asked if I wanted her to clean today and I told her no. She cried a lot. Tried to hug me and explain why she didn't feel it was stealing and how it was only these few things and basically tried to justify taking things and forgetting to ask... then when I would ask about the item.. forgetting that she had taken it.. I asked her what she thought the definition of stealing was and she just cried more. 

Pretty sad for a woman of 34 years old who has been working for me for so long. But at least I don't have to worry for my last couple months here in Mexico.. I guess it is time go get off my butt and clean my own house though..


----------



## conklinwh

Tough but good to get over. Really appreciate the update. Interesting, I've had the discussion on what constitutes stealing. Some answers really surprise me like if doesn't look like being used and somebody really wants or needs.


----------



## that chicka

conklinwh said:


> Tough but good to get over. Really appreciate the update. Interesting, I've had the discussion on what constitutes stealing. Some answers really surprise me like if doesn't look like being used and somebody really wants or needs.



Yeah what constitutes stealing is what really has me scratching my head. When I asked about the tanktops I just bought 4 weeks ago when I was in the US. Since I bought 2 of each color, she just took one of each. I never told her that I bought one for her or anything like that. I am a chef and I wear them under my filipinos. I like the ones from Target because they are long and I have a long torso. So her taking the second one just baffles me. Especially since she didn't think of it as stealing.. just she took it and forgot to tell me.. or ask for that matter..


----------



## conklinwh

Luckily we have never had this with any of our housekeepers, knock on wood. Discussion has more been with friends about why tools walk off.


----------



## Isla Verde

that chicka said:


> Yeah what constitutes stealing is what really has me scratching my head. When I asked about the tanktops I just bought 4 weeks ago when I was in the US. Since I bought 2 of each color, she just took one of each. I never told her that I bought one for her or anything like that. I am a chef and I wear them under my filipinos. I like the ones from Target because they are long and I have a long torso. So her taking the second one just baffles me. Especially since she didn't think of it as stealing.. just she took it and forgot to tell me.. or ask for that matter..


I think that she knows it was stealing and just made up all those excuses and rationalizations when she got caught to try and get out of trouble.


----------

