# Changing image of la Policía



## paw (May 11, 2014)

I am fortunate to work with Mexicans as a tv/video producer and have recently covered the totally new, transparent and young and educated police force. I just got so PO´d to view a Yahoo post circumscribing the old tired image of corrupt MX cops.

Now I am a kid who grew up in Frank Rizzo´s Philly. Corrupt she laughs? I lived all over the place including in the Rodney King LA and the Fuhrman glove trial. I got my car towed in Maine only to pay a mere $200 to sneak it out.

What is this obsession to call Mexico and MX cops corrupt? I think its what the shrinks call "transference" - you know, to project onto your hated other that which you are scared of and hate in self. Its been done vis a vis mx for at least the length of the cine biz.

I will tell y´all first hand - the young MX cops are great enthusiastic people, courageous and well trained. So let´s cut the stereotypes please.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

As the old saying goes, the "proof" is in the "pudding." I, and every Mexican I've ever known start from the general premise the police in Mexico are the enemy - the criminals. And history, with some exceptions, of course, has proven that point. I'm anxious to see a change in the situation, but, I doubt there's been a _sea change_. Isolated improvements? Let's hope so.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Longford said:


> As the old saying goes, the "proof" is in the "pudding." I, and every Mexican I've ever known start from the general premise the police in Mexico are the enemy - the criminals. And history, with some exceptions, of course, has proven that point. I'm anxious to see a change in the situation, but, I doubt there's been a _sea change_. Isolated improvements? Let's hope so.


Back 20 years ago in the mid 90s I also hear it said the same as you.


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## joaquinx (Jul 3, 2010)

paw said:


> I am fortunate to work with Mexicans as a tv/video producer and have recently covered the totally new, transparent and young and educated police force. I just got so PO´d to view a Yahoo post circumscribing the old tired image of corrupt MX cops.
> 
> 
> I will tell y´all first hand - the young MX cops are great enthusiastic people, courageous and well trained. So let´s cut the stereotypes please.


Mexico is a large country. Your anti-stereotyping shows a bit of bias to one area.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

The cops in Mexico have a well deserved reputation, you can believe in whatever you want they are corrupt.
Some of them are nice, some of them will help you and some of them will rob you and set you up to intimidate you and get money out of you.
. Do not tell me it is not true it has happened to me and my neghbor so please give us a break about the undeserved reputation.

By the way I have no doubt that you have met great young recruits, if they do not get get corrupted by the system they will get the reputation they desrve in 20 years or so but until then I doubt that the negative image will change very quickly.


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## paw (May 11, 2014)

I know I know ... we here are usually older, I first worked in MX in 1983, lived here in Oaxaca in 1989, I try very hard to be positive & of course because I work w this cop trainer who is an awesome person I want all of them to be like that.

Maybe part of where I´m coming from is an extreme distaste/disgust for 95% of the young people entering the media biz, there seems to be this huge laziness, desire to just have fame & fortune thru facebook ... v different fr USA where kids do tend to work their asses off. Kid cops are cooler, better workers.

So guys I do not claim to be without prejudices. I work w "jovenes" lots and get angry lots - from Mtrrey to SLP to Zac to Ags......


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## paw (May 11, 2014)

OK I am new here, maybe you all are canadians? Like innocent about corruption? The USA cops are very similar to MX cops. I work in TV and that means keeping NBA, NFL, actors in general out of jail. All it takes is $$$$. People try to extort them all the time, they do stupid stuff all the time, judges and cops yes accept lots of money all the time - I guess that´s corruption but its biz as usual in sports, movies, tv, like that. Money talks.

Portland, Maine I had the most crime perpetrated on me - I got home one night, door knocked in, luckily they were dumb and did not steal the really good electronics. cop said "well go down to the pawn shop next week and you can buy your cameras back."

No Mexico does not have the corruption franchise.


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

I sure hope there is a trend and that things will change eventually it would be great. If there are enough young guys willing to fight the system and not give in to temptation or threats it will change.
erous place
Corruption in Mexico is all over from the top to the bottom, in the USi t is more institutionalized and the lobbies are nothing but legal corruption but frankly in 30 years I have lived there I have never been asked for a bribe, no one ever stopped me on tromped up charges to extort money and I have never seen cops rob a house at gun point never was asked for money when I was applying for a driver´s license and so on..too many cases to even go into it.

I worked in Wast LA and Richmond in Norther California so I am not extremely naive and certainly not a Canadian or from the US. I am from a Latin country where to get a nice apartment you had to pay up the manager where you had to pay someone and know someone to get a phone line so I am no snow white. 

One of the major problems with Mexico is the corruption like it or not.

No Mexico does not have the exclusvity and there is plenty of corruption going on in many countries but Mexico is up there.
I love Mexico but I am not blind.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

paw said:


> OK I am new here, maybe you all are canadians? Like innocent about corruption? The USA cops are very similar to MX cops. I work in TV and that means keeping NBA, NFL, actors in general out of jail. All it takes is $$$$. People try to extort them all the time, they do stupid stuff all the time, judges and cops yes accept lots of money all the time - I guess that´s corruption but its biz as usual in sports, movies, tv, like that. Money talks.
> 
> Portland, Maine I had the most crime perpetrated on me - I got home one night, door knocked in, luckily they were dumb and did not steal the really good electronics. cop said "well go down to the pawn shop next week and you can buy your cameras back."
> 
> No Mexico does not have the corruption franchise.


This is a forum discussing Mexico, not the usa or other countries. Insulting people (i.e., Canadians, or others) seems to me to be bad manners for someone new here.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

Longford said:


> This is a forum discussing Mexico, not the usa or other countries. Insulting people (i.e., Canadians, or others) seems to me to be bad manners for someone new here.


It's bad manners for all forum members and a violation of Forum Rule #1: Please treat others here the way you wish to be treated, with respect, and without insult or personal attack.


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## travelinhobo (Sep 17, 2010)

Actually, I'm American by trade and I didn't consider that an insult. Thought they were just stating the facts as they see them. Back to the topic at hand tho... I'm here in Xalapa and have been for 2 weeks. When I see the local cops on the street (always in pairs), there's something about them which makes me see them unlike their DF cohorts. Don't know if it's the way they hold themselves, the way they walk, or what. But they don't come off as being slackers like in DF.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

"Logical fallacy of stereotyping:


Description: The general beliefs that we use to categorize people, objects, and events while assuming those beliefs are accurate generalizations of the whole group.

Logical Form:

All X’s have the property Y (this being a characterization, not a fact).

Z is an X.

Therefore, Z has the property Y.

Example #1:

French people are great at kissing. Julie is French. Get me a date!

Explanation: “French people are great at kissing” is a stereotype, and believing this to be so is a fallacy. While it may be the case that some or even most are great at kissing, we cannot assume this without valid reasons.

Example #2:

Atheists are morally bankrupt.

Explanation: This isn’t an argument, but just an assertion, one not even based on any kind of facts. Stereotypes such as these usually arise from prejudice, ignorance, jealousy or even hatred.

Exception: Statistical data can reveal properties of a group that are more common than in other groups, which can affect probability of any individual member of the group having that property, but we can never assume that all members of the group have that property.

Tip: Remember that people are individuals above being members of groups or categories."

http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/168-stereotyping


Many posters fall into stereotyping Pólice here as their experiences are negative but at the same time their logic is flawed because of their predjuices towards the group. To understand Pólice [as a lagre group] here where in reality you can only see a tiny sampling of their actions you need to guess what they are doing in general. A tiny sampling means absolutely nothing to the facts. Is it the tip of the iceberg, the whole iceberg or a major portion or 3/4 of the iceberg, nobody can know? Only you can guess what are "the facts" from tiny samples. Stating you know for a fact is fooling yourself and others and is illogical.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Longford said:


> As the old saying goes, the "proof" is in the "pudding." I, and every Mexican I've ever known start from the general premise the police in Mexico are the enemy - the criminals. And history, with some exceptions, of course, has proven that point. I'm anxious to see a change in the situation, but, I doubt there's been a _sea change_. Isolated improvements? Let's hope so.



"Appeal to Common Folk


(also known as: appeal to the common man)

Description: In place of evidence, attempting to establish a connection to the audience based on being a “regular person” just like each of them. Then suggesting that your proposition is something that all common folk believe or should accept.

Logical Form:

X is just common folk wisdom.

Therefore, you should accept X.



Person 1 is a common man who proposes Y.

You are also a common man.

Therefore, you should accept Y.

Example #1:

My fellow Americans, I am just like you. Sure, I have a few private jets and homes in twelve countries, but I put on my pants one leg at a time, just like you common people. So believe me when I say, this increase in taxes for the common folk is just what we all need.

Explanation: There is no valid reason given for the increase in taxes.

Example #2:

You don't want a hot dog and beer? Eating hot dogs and drinking beer at a baseball game is the American thing to do.

Explanation: Here the person making the argument is appealing to the tradition of the common folk.

Exception: If the “common folk” appeal is made in addition to valid reasons, then it is not a fallacy, although I would argue it is cheap pandering that many people can easily detect."


Appeal to Common Folk

You have once again explained you position and included "every Mexican I´ve every know" clause to fortify your positon without reason of facts, just emotions or gut feelings.


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## paw (May 11, 2014)

I actually was joking. We as expats are of course victims of stereotyping and we can do it as well , oh come on I am called guerita gabacha all the time - stiks & stones ... sorry to offend you Canadians or shall we say Canooks --- JHMFC I am insulted every day and really have learned to not take it seriously...get ovah yaselves as they say in NJ..


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

paw said:


> I actually was joking. We as expats are of course victims of stereotyping and we can do it as well , oh come on I am called guerita gabacha all the time - stiks & stones ... sorry to offend you Canadians or shall we say Canooks --- JHMFC I am insulted every day and really have learned to not take it seriously...get ovah yaselves as they say in NJ..


You are insulted every day, really? That's not been my experience in Mexico City, possibly because I've been here long enough to blend into the general population.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


paw said:



I am fortunate to work with Mexicans as a tv/video producer and have recently covered the totally new, transparent and young and educated police force. I just got so PO´d to view a Yahoo post circumscribing the old tired image of corrupt MX cops.

Now I am a kid who grew up in Frank Rizzo´s Philly. Corrupt she laughs? I lived all over the place including in the Rodney King LA and the Fuhrman glove trial. I got my car towed in Maine only to pay a mere $200 to sneak it out.

What is this obsession to call Mexico and MX cops corrupt? I think its what the shrinks call "transference" - you know, to project onto your hated other that which you are scared of and hate in self. Its been done vis a vis mx for at least the length of the cine biz.

I will tell y´all first hand - the young MX cops are great enthusiastic people, courageous and well trained. So let´s cut the stereotypes please.

Click to expand...

_ Young cops are normally enthusiastic and "great" people until he system breaks them down and corrupts them as most of us are corrupted over time by whatever trade we pursue. In every job I´ve ever had over 40 years , several in regulatory agencies of the U. S governmenr, I found it necessary, over time, to compromise my principles in the pursiuit of success so we are all whores - it´s just the price that is at challenge.

However, I have never seen any agencies as corrupt as the pólice forces in Mexico from local to state to federal. Exquisitely and profoundly corrupt up and down the chain of command and including peripheral supporting agencies in municipalities and states and I thank God for that since, over the years, I have committed certain infractions which might, in the U.S. and certainly in France might have ended up in my having spent times in the hoosegaw, merely require the Little bite to absolve responsibiity here in Mexico. I have yet to confront a situation I could not buy my way out of here with the right amount - normally not much - of filthy lucre. 

¡Viva Mexico!


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

¡Viva!


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## wonderphil (Sep 7, 2013)

Hound Dog said:


> ..... I have yet to confront a situation I could not buy my way out of here with the right amount - normally not much - of filthy lucre.
> 
> ¡Viva Mexico!


I might do the same but I don't like it and I hope that would be my last choice. I have not been confronted by that or when stopped I just let them search my car or whatever but never had a problem. Taking that easy bribe road is the easy way but contributes to the corruption problem. I just hope there is hope. Maybe hope will be when the bribers start get thrown into jail for trying to bribe a cop like they should be. :fingerscrossed:


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

Actually I do not know how many people "try" to bribe cops in Mexico. I have never offered money to cops but I have been asked for money, first nicely and then intimiditated into giving them money. They know every trick in the book to scare you and I am no scary cat or a shrinking vilet.t..
It is easy to be self rightous if you are in a city and have people around but not so easy not to be nevcous if you are on a lonely road, two of them are after money.

If you try to bribe a cop in France you find yourself in the slammer but I cannot imagine a cop not taking the money in Mexico as long as you offer the right amount and treat the officer with respect of course.


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## Bobbyb (Mar 9, 2014)

Trust Houndog to get right to the meat of this subject. Maybe the young cops are honest and really want to do a good job. But they won't get far with that attitude. I know of a major Mexican city where the Transitos have a system for mordida. The city is divided into sectors and each sector has a Jefe. He pep talks the cops to get more mordida as he gets a cut of everything they collect. But transitos are not real cops. I know police chiefs who are as professional as anywhere else in N.A. They have CSI units, mobile car theft units, computer equipped cars and more. But I wonder if they still take bribes. It is a part of the culture.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Bobbyb said:


> Trust Houndog to get right to the meat of this subject. Maybe the young cops are honest and really want to do a good job. But they won't get far with that attitude. I know of a major Mexican city where the Transitos have a system for mordida. The city is divided into sectors and each sector has a Jefe. He pep talks the cops to get more mordida as he gets a cut of everything they collect. But transitos are not real cops. I know police chiefs who are as professional as anywhere else in N.A. They have CSI units, mobile car theft units, computer equipped cars and more. But I wonder if they still take bribes. It is a part of the culture.


WOW if some outsider knows the Transitos setup in a major Mexican City I have to wonder why the Federal Anti Corruption Unit doesn´t?


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

In Nuevo León call on douchebag corrupt Transitos

"089 Anonymous Citizen Report 
initiation news special 


"089 Anonymous Citizen Report 



Through the 089 toll free number you can file a complaint anonymously by abuse of authority, telephone extortion, abuse, drug sales and other crimes and behaviors. You can also make such complaints online."



Federally, Mexico City call on corrupt officals:

"The number 088 is national center for complaints 

Commissioner National Security, Manuel Mondragon said all crimes will be addressed, including corruption of public servants." etc.

Very easy and many citizens are doing it. Why not?

http://sipse.com/mexico/el-numero-088-sera-centro-nacional-de-denuncias-21675.html


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

AlanMexicali said:


> WOW if some outsider knows the Transitos setup in a major Mexican City I have to wonder why the Federal Anti Corruption Unit doesn´t?


Perhaps the federal anti-corruption unit does know, maybe thay don´t know. We{ll probably never if they do or don´t know and that´s the problem. To whom do you turn for honest law enforcement? I recommend the very successful movie by Lusi Estrada of a few years ago (2010 I believe), _El Infierno _ for some insights into corruption in Mexico.

A Brazilian movie produced a few years ago as well entitled _City of God _is also instructive. On the DVD of this movie, the ex-pólice chief of Rio de Janiero states in an intervire that Brazil will never tackle its terrible corruption problems until the rich and powerful concede that the law applies to them as well as the poor.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Hound Dog said:


> QUOTE=AlanMexicali;4014673]WOW if some outsider knows the Transitos setup in a major Mexican City I have to wonder why the Federal Anti Corruption Unit doesn´t?





> Perhaps the federal anti-corruption unit does know, maybe thay don´t know. We{ll probably never if they do or don´t know and that´s the problem.




Or maybe it is a rumor started by some disgruntled person or persons.


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## Bobbyb (Mar 9, 2014)

When qwe first started to explore Mexico we were beyond naïve. Went to visit friends in Juarez. This was more than 25 years ago and Juarez was a lsafe place to visit. We got lost in a residential neighborhood and stopped to ask some teenagers where I could find a cop for directions. Kid was amazed. He sid: Are you nuts? If you ask A cop he will find some reason to extract mordida and gave us the directions> Years late one of our Mexican friends asked us to attend heir daughter's college grad. Fortunately most at our table spoke some English. Didn't know much Spanish at the time. The discussion was all about how you would not get a diploma util you joined the PRI party!!! Point is that corruption is so deeply rooted that nothing happens without a payment. Want to open a fish market in a residential hood. No problem 2000 pesos and you get the permit. Need an elevator permit for one that does not meet the current standard. Just pay and you get the permit. When NAFTA first began a number of Canadian companies invetsed heavily in Mexico. They figured that Mexico would become a developed nation and they could participate in the profits. (they were correct). One of the companies was Bombardier. The exact details of what follows is not verbatim but it is correct. Bombardier already owned a train car building facility in Canada. Mexico City was about to replace the aging cars in the subway system. Mexico had a Federally owned train car builder. It was out of business as they had not invested one peso in the crumbling company for years. Of course they still had hundreds if not thousands of employees who did nothing except accept their paychecks . Bombardier wined and dined the people who would make the final decision on whose cars would get the contract. It was between Bombardier and a Spanish outfit. The Canadians were so naïve they did not realize that "payments" would have to be made. The Spaniards were from a country with even worse corruption than Mexico so they knew the procedure. Bombardier was led to believe that if they purchased the Mexican car builder the contract would be theirs. Needless to say the Spaniards got the deal and Bombardier got NADA except a worthless car builder. It was a big scandal and the Province of Quebec made some outspoken remarks about the corruption. Mexico almost asked the Rep. from Quebec to leave the country. At the time US companies could not pay bribes due to some anti corruption act. But the Mexican lawyers came to their aid. The US Companies would pay "legal fees" to their lawyers who then paid that Mordida to the officials. ASI ES!


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

yep it was the same when I worked for Seagram US.. we could not pay bribes, which made meetings with reps from Latin America and even better Africa extremely entertaining and educational..
Our corporate lawyers would pull their hair out as there was not one single person in the room who was snow white. Doing Mexico in Mexico was interesting but in Lagos was epic..


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Bobbyb said:


> It is a part of the culture.


At this point ... still a part of the national DNA in Mexico, IMO.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

Thank you Bobbyb for that posting that included the tale of Bombadier and the Mexico City metro. The DF metro was designed after the Paris metro and the French helped design and construct the DF metro including subway coaches that run on rubber tires. The French warned the Mexicans that it was esential to replace the coach tires within a specific time frame even though the tires may not appear to be in need of replacement. To ignore this edict was to court serious problems down the line. Well, this admonition goes against the most elementary grain of the Mexican cultural and that is both good and bad as is everything in life so the story goes that the tires were used beyond that period recommended to predictable ends over time .

It´s a cultural thing and so be it. Unfortunately, the corruption in the civil body is not so easily dismissed and, if one rents the movie _El Infierno _as I previously suggessted, one can see the almost insurmountable task faced here in Mexico in overcoming the problem of indemic corruption at all levels including the ordinary citizen. A fabulous and instructive movie - a must see.

One of my favorite stories and absolutely true to the bone:

One night a few years ago, we were driving along a deserted, mountainous and dark two lane road in Chiapas on the rim of the Tacaná Volcano just on the border with Guatemala when we missed a curve in the pitch black darkness and had a single-car accident roll-over. Had we rolled over another time for a meter or two we might have been in Guatemala aand then the story would have become even more interesting but thank God that did not happen.

Anyway, to make a long story short, the local cops came to our rescue and, in the process of helping me out of the car, stole my wallet as I was, natuarally befuddled and in no condition to protect my possessions. Later, after having taken into pólice headquarters in the nearest small town, it was decided that it was too late to call the local magistrate to report the accident after consutation with municiple authorities all of whom shirked ther respective duties and then we were turned over to the federal cops out of Tapachula who were to give us a ride back to our hotel while the car was delivered to a local taller in Tapachula by a tow truck. We told the federal officers, upon driving toward Taapachula, that the local cops had stolen my wallet and their response was that they had no doubt that had happened as they always did that although there was nothing they could do about it so that was our loss and, by the way, the ride we are giving you to your hotel will cost you $5,000 Pesos and if you don´t have $5,000 Pesos we will take you to the mearest ATM where you can get $5,000 Pesos using your wife´s debit card. The alternative was that we could walk back to the hotel on a dark and lonely rural highway in the middle of the night so we had them stop at an ATM and paid them off so they would deliver us to the hotel.

It doesn´t end there. The taller in Tapachula, approved by our insurance compsny, or the tow truck driver or the local cops. we don´t have any idea which of these, stole everything in the car including, for God´s sake, the Jack so that when we returned from San Cristóbal de Las Casas to Tapachula to pick up our repaired car, evey personal thing we had left there including that Jack, was gone forever. When we called the Nissan dealer in San Cristóbal asking if we could buy a new Jack, they informed us that they might have to send for one in Japan as, since nobody ever ordered a new ack, they kept none in stock. 

Crooked local and federal cops and crooked and incompetent local officials down there in Chiapas and this is just one story. I have some good Jalisco stories as well and some good Alabama stories as well for that matter. 

Thany wallet the local cps stole from me has been gone for several years and is gone forever. Civility would have dictate that they simply take my money and return my vital documents to me but, what the hell, it was a learning experience.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

I might add that the film " Presunto Culpable" is a worthwhile look at the Mexican Legal System, which fortunately most of us have never experienced (and hopefully never will). Yet, Alan seems to think this corruption is in the past, and Mexicans now look upon the Police/Legal System as "friends" of the people. IMHO, I think nothing has changed, except the use of smoke is getting better all the time in Mexico.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Bobbyb said:


> When qwe first started to explore Mexico we were beyond naïve. Went to visit friends in Juarez. This was more than 25 years ago and Juarez was a lsafe place to visit. We got lost in a residential neighborhood and stopped to ask some teenagers where I could find a cop for directions. Kid was amazed. He sid: Are you nuts? If you ask A cop he will find some reason to extract mordida and gave us the directions> Years late one of our Mexican friends asked us to attend heir daughter's college grad. Fortunately most at our table spoke some English. Didn't know much Spanish at the time. The discussion was all about how you would not get a diploma util you joined the PRI party!!! Point is that corruption is so deeply rooted that nothing happens without a payment. Want to open a fish market in a residential hood. No problem 2000 pesos and you get the permit. Need an elevator permit for one that does not meet the current standard. Just pay and you get the permit. When NAFTA first began a number of Canadian companies invetsed heavily in Mexico. They figured that Mexico would become a developed nation and they could participate in the profits. (they were correct). One of the companies was Bombardier. The exact details of what follows is not verbatim but it is correct. Bombardier already owned a train car building facility in Canada. Mexico City was about to replace the aging cars in the subway system. Mexico had a Federally owned train car builder. It was out of business as they had not invested one peso in the crumbling company for years. Of course they still had hundreds if not thousands of employees who did nothing except accept their paychecks . Bombardier wined and dined the people who would make the final decision on whose cars would get the contract. It was between Bombardier and a Spanish outfit. The Canadians were so naïve they did not realize that "payments" would have to be made. The Spaniards were from a country with even worse corruption than Mexico so they knew the procedure. Bombardier was led to believe that if they purchased the Mexican car builder the contract would be theirs. Needless to say the Spaniards got the deal and Bombardier got NADA except a worthless car builder. It was a big scandal and the Province of Quebec made some outspoken remarks about the corruption. Mexico almost asked the Rep. from Quebec to leave the country. At the time US companies could not pay bribes due to some anti corruption act. But the Mexican lawyers came to their aid. The US Companies would pay "legal fees" to their lawyers who then paid that Mordida to the officials. ASI ES!


But you and another are talking about Mexico 20 or more years ago and I tend to agree with you. Got any news from 2014?


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

coondawg said:


> I might add that the film " Presunto Culpable" is a worthwhile look at the Mexican Legal System, which fortunately most of us have never experienced (and hopefully never will). Yet, Alan seems to think this corruption is in the past, and Mexicans now look upon the Police/Legal System as "friends" of the people. IMHO, I think nothing has changed, except the use of smoke is getting better all the time in Mexico.


Outdated info. in "12 states (36%) had begun operating at least" and maybe reading the Mexican newspapers is a good idea, don´t you think?

"Presunto Culpable" = Presumed Guilty


"U.S. and Mexican officials assert that fully implementing judicial reforms enacted through constitutional changes in June 2008 is a key goal. Under the reforms, Mexico has until 2016 to replace its trial procedures at the federal and state level, moving from a closed-door process based on written arguments presented to a judge to an adversarial public trial system with oral arguments and the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. These changes are expected to help make the system less prone to corruption and more transparent and impartial. In addition to oral trials, judicial systems are expected to adopt means of alternative dispute resolution, which should help them be more flexible and efficient, thereby ensuring that cases that go to trial involve serious crimes.


More than halfway into the reform process, judicial reform efforts in Mexico are at a critical juncture. As of December 2012, 22 of Mexico’s 32 states had enacted new criminal procedure codes (67%), but only 12 states (36%) had begun operating at least partially under the new system. Reform states have seen positive initial results as compared to non-reform states: faster case resolution times, less pre-trial detention, and tougher sentences for cases that go to trial.


Daunting challenges remain, however, including counter-reform efforts and opposition from some key justice sector operators (including judges). Although reform efforts have lagged at the federal level, President Enrique Peña Nieto, inaugurated in December 2012 to a six-year term, has said that advancing judicial reform will be a top priority."

https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/R43001.pdf


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## citlali (Mar 4, 2013)

A Mexican judge told me that the problems are that most lawyers are lazy and ill prepared and not qualified to enter the new system.. Right there pretty scary ..


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

AlanMexicali said:


> But you and another are talking about Mexico 20 or more years ago and I tend to agree with you. Got any news from 2014?


Wasn't it just last year that WalMart was discovered paying "bribes" to local officials for construction permits, etc.? WM has not been building in Mexico for 20 years. Michoacan is 2014.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

coondawg said:


> Wasn't it just last year that WalMart was discovered paying "bribes" to local officials for construction permits, etc.? WM has not been building in Mexico for 20 years. Michoacan is 2014.


Walked into the Walmart in Mexicali in 1992 [22 years ago] and the scandal was around 2003 [11 years ago] but reported in 2012. Any recent news?

Small town/city pólice and mayors in Michaocan where "Plata o plumo" was the taste of the day.

More revelant is La Maestra and ex Governors of Tabasco and Augascaliente awaiting trial in jail for embezzelment and unable to buy their way out.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Aguascaliente; plomo 

Gordillo, La Maestra was charged last week, in addition to her other multiple charges, for several charges of money laundering.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

And nothing changes in Mexico. The schools operate exactly the same as when Elba was in charge. No one rocks the boat. They are in "jail" just like El Chapo. You must admit that even 2003 was not 20 years ago.  Come talk to the family of my wife in Leon if you want to know how it is with Police there. "Cooperation" has just increased in price. They wouldn't let us rent our Paddle Boats in the city park because they were too dangerous (included life vests for all passengers and in 4 foot of water). But, they rent trips in pontoon boats in the deep section, without life vests. Go figure. You can not speak for all of Mexico, only the part where you live now. Me neither. If I was caught in Mexico, I would claim "plata o plomo", too. Just like all those "fake" police cars with fake officers killing and kidnapping people. Smoke, Alan, Mexican smoke.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

coondawg said:


> And nothing changes in Mexico. The schools operate exactly the same as when Elba was in charge. No one rocks the boat. They are in "jail" just like El Chapo. You must admit that even 2003 was not 20 years ago.  Come talk to the family of my wife in Leon if you want to know how it is with Police there. "Cooperation" has just increased in price. They wouldn't let us rent our Paddle Boats in the city park because they were too dangerous (included life vests for all passengers and in 4 foot of water). But, they rent trips in pontoon boats in the deep section, without life vests. Go figure. You can not speak for all of Mexico, only the part where you live now. Me neither.


The hammer is slowly coming down on big time crooks and I doubt small petty stuff matters as it used to be in Canada and the USA before.

RCMP at the lake used to take our cases of beer when we were underage and tell us to get our parents to pick it up at the station if it "really is" theirs. If not there by sundown they would dispose of it.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

coondawg said:


> And nothing changes in Mexico. The schools operate exactly the same as when Elba was in charge. No one rocks the boat. They are in "jail" just like El Chapo. You must admit that even 2003 was not 20 years ago.  Come talk to the family of my wife in Leon if you want to know how it is with Police there. "Cooperation" has just increased in price. They wouldn't let us rent our Paddle Boats in the city park because they were too dangerous (included life vests for all passengers and in 4 foot of water). But, they rent trips in pontoon boats in the deep section, without life vests. Go figure. You can not speak for all of Mexico, only the part where you live now. Me neither. If I was caught in Mexico, I would claim "plata o plomo", too. Just like all those "fake" police cars with fake officers killing and kidnapping people. Smoke, Alan, Mexican smoke.


I guess you haven´t been following the federal education reforms and all the teachers unions protests lately.

These things are not smoke screens, they are real events happening to real people.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


AlanMexicali said:



But you and another are talking about Mexico 20 or more years ago and I tend to agree with you. Got any news from 2014?

Click to expand...

_Actually, the incident I related above that took place in Chiapas took place in 2010 as memory serves me upon reflection and we have been residents of Chiapas since 2006 with Chiapas driver´s licenses and a home we own in San Cristóbal de Las Casas so we were not even remotely tourists except that we had Jalisco license plates since that is where we bought the car and were driving about the Soconusco Región (mostly tierra caliente) on the Pacific Coast where there is a tendency to look with suspicion upon people who live in highland places such as San Cristóbal. The cops in the expat community on Lake Chapala where we also have owned a residence since 2001, are even more crooked and opportunistic than the cops in Chiapas perhaps because there are far fewer expats living in Chiapas and the large indigenous population down there are not pussycats when confronted by the inept Keystone Cops for which the state is famous. In fact, we were told by the president of the El Cerrillo Barrio where we live in San Cristóbal shortly after we moved there in 2006 that if we saw any municipal cops hanging around the barrio without his specific permission we were to let him know and he would take it up with city hall. 

As for news from 2014, Alan, in Chiapas in 2010 we were accident victims and therefore ripe for theft by crooked cops who apparently perform their thievery randomly and often but since we drive a Mexican plated car we are no longer randomly harassed for no reason as we were often when we drove a California plated car heading down the highway like a carton of rotting meat fair game for vultures. 

The least those sonsabitches in Chiapas could have done is just have stolen my money and left me my wallet with all my important documents in it which had no value for them. Replacing those documents was hell.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

AlanMexicali said:


> I guess you haven´t been following the federal education reforms and all the teachers unions protests lately.
> 
> These things are not smoke screens, they are real events happening to real people.


Teachers union protests have been going on for years in many parts of the country, especially in Oaxaca City, where they literally close down the city center for the month of July. Last fall they moved them to Mexico City, where they made life miserable for any chilangos living in the center of the city, like me, for instance. They were protesting (not supporting) the education reforms, which requires such horrible things as taking a census of all the teachers in the country to find out how many are actually teaching in classrooms and how many are just being paid to agitate in the streets. The teachers protest to protect their perks and the huge salaries their leaders make, not to improve education for Mexico's children!


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

AlanMexicali said:


> Daunting challenges remain, however, including counter-reform efforts and opposition from some key justice sector operators (including judges). Although reform efforts have lagged at the federal level, President Enrique Peña Nieto, inaugurated in December 2012 to a six-year term, has said that advancing judicial reform will be a top priority."
> 
> https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/R43001.pdf


Alan, Under EPN, the "REAL" crime statistics have been altered and falsely reported. Crime is even more rampant than under the PAN. Kidnappings and extortions have "gone through the roof". Newspapers have been told not to report on crimes and thus Mexico seems, on the surface, more tranquil. SMOKE. I live in Mexico , have since 1999, been coming here since 1960,but I have my eyes and ears open, and I don't try to "cover up" what is happening, or "white wash it ", so that people with think I live in a country that does not have lots of problems, one that is safer and more secure than many areas NOB. NOB I have never lived near or known anyone who had heard AK-47 being fired in the street outside my house (a running gun battle between police and narcos) here in Mexico, nor have I heard a grenade going off 2 blocks from my house, nor been aware of lots and lots of cut up bodies being thrown in front of schools, government buildings, hung from bridges in the city, etc. Tell me these same things are happen NOB. It's nowhere close, and those people who say it is the same, and continually compare crime to NOB are idiots. That being said, I am afraid this world has an ample supply of idiots, so death will not solve the problem with them nor will it solve the problem with racism.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Hound Dog said:


> Actually, the incident I related above that took place in Chiapas took place in 2010 as memory serves me upon reflection and we have been residents of Chiapas since 2006 with Chiapas driver´s licenses and a home we own in San Cristóbal de Las Casas so we were not even remotely tourists except that we had Jalisco license plates since that is where we bought the car and were driving about the Soconusco Región (mostly tierra caliente) on the Pacific Coast where there is a tendency to look with suspicion upon people who live in highland places such as San Cristóbal. The cops in the expat community on Lake Chapala where we also have owned a residence since 2001, are even more crooked and opportunistic than the cops in Chiapas perhaps because there are far fewer expats living in Chiapas and the large indigenous population down there are not pussycats when confronted by the inept Keystone Cops for which the state is famous. In fact, we were told by the president of the El Cerrillo Barrio where we live in San Cristóbal shortly after we moved there in 2006 that if we saw any municipal cops hanging around the barrio without his specific permission we were to let him know and he would take it up with city hall.
> 
> As for news from 2014, Alan, in Chiapas in 2010 we were accident victims and therefore ripe for theft by crooked cops who apparently perform their thievery randomly and often but since we drive a Mexican plated car we are no longer randomly harassed for no reason as we were often when we drove a California plated car heading down the highway like a carton of rotting meat fair game for vultures.
> 
> The least those sonsabitches in Chiapas could have done is just have stolen my money and left me my wallet with all my important documents in it which had no value for them. Replacing those documents was hell.


I do not doubt it one bit considering that Chiapas has the highest percentage of residents living in poverty than the other states. The lowest state pólice pay and municipal pólice pay in the country and forgotten for decades by Mexico City. Lucky they got an upgraded wáter and electricity delivery system from Mexico City since Calderón was in. Hopefully they can get some kind of flood control systems upgrades soon in some places where it is desperately needed.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

AlanMexicali said:


> The hammer is slowly coming down on big time crooks and I doubt small petty stuff matters as it used to be in Canada and the USA before.
> 
> RCMP at the lake used to take our cases of beer when we were underage and tell us to get our parents to pick it up at the station if it "really is" theirs. If not there by sundown they would dispose of it.


IMHO, people who continue to compare Mexico crime to what is happening in NOB are ------! The only saving grace is that some are intelligent, but allow one to dominate the other.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

AlanMexicali said:


> I do not doubt it one bit considering that Chiapas has the highest percentage of residents living in poverty than the other states. The lowest state pólice pay and municipal pólice pay in the country and forgotten for decades by Mexico City. Lucky they got an upgraded wáter and electricity delivery system from Mexico City since Calderón was in. Hopefully they can get some kind of flood control systems upgrades soon in some places where it is desperately needed.


Alan, QUIT MAKING EXCUSES for those SOBs ! Just call it like it is and move on. Geez, Louise !


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

coondawg said:


> Alan, Under EPN, the "REAL" crime statistics have been altered and falsely reported. Crime is even more rampant than under the PAN. Kidnappings and extortions have "gone through the roof". Newspapers have been told not to report on crimes and thus Mexico seems, on the surface, more tranquil. SMOKE. I live in Mexico , have since 1999, been coming here since 1960,but I have my eyes and ears open, and I don't try to "cover up" what is happening, or "white wash it ", so that people with think I live in a country that does not have lots of problems, one that is safer and more secure than many areas NOB. NOB I have never lived near or known anyone who had heard AK-47 being fired in the street outside my house (a running gun battle between police and narcos) here in Mexico, nor have I heard a grenade going off 2 blocks from my house, nor been aware of lots and lots of cut up bodies being thrown in front of schools, government buildings, hung from bridges in the city, etc. Tell me these same things are happen NOB. It's nowhere close, and those people who say it is the same, and continually compare crime to NOB are idiots. That being said, I am afraid this world has an ample supply of idiots, so death will not solve the problem with them nor will it solve the problem with racism.


There is no credible database/collection of crime statistics in Mexico and crimes are not uniformly classified amongs the jurisdictions ... from what I understand. Add to that ... about 90% of crimes are not reported (if published reports on the topic are accurate). Also, too, there is self-censorship by the media in the conflict zones ... due to the assassination of so many journalists/bloggers.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

_


AlanMexicali said:



I do not doubt it one bit considering that Chiapas has the highest percentage of residents living in poverty than the other states. The lowest state pólice pay and municipal pólice pay in the country and forgotten for decades by Mexico City. *Lucky they got an upgraded wáter and electricity delivery system from Mexico City since Calderón was in. Hopefully they can get some kind of flood control systems upgrades soon in some places where it is desperately needed.*

Click to expand...

_

Well, I hope the possible new flood control system woks better than the "upgraded water and electricity system from Mexico City since Calderon was in." When we left San Cristóbal for Lake Chapala in mid-April there was no wáter for citizens living in the elevated áreas of the city as, according to wáter authorities, the pumping equipment was inadequate to get the wáter up the hill but miraculously there was plenty of wáter for the hotels in centro catering to tourists during Semana Santa. Gross hypocrisy. We could leave there and drive back to Lake Chapala which we did but most of our neighbors were without ostensibly guranteed municipal wáter - many for weeks. Here it is mid-May and we have no idea if municipal wáter is once again being delivered or not. 

You are living in a dream world, Alan and, while I have the utmost respect for you and your positions, the wáter delivrery and flood control systems in Chiapas are a bad joke and a testament to the total corruption of the Mexican political system. There are about 4,000,000 people living in Chiapas and my guess is well over half of those people are indigenous Maya. The state is deapaeately poor but also populated by a few of the wealthiest and least sensitive people you could ever hope not to meet. That´s the way it is and it won´t change in our lifetimes. 

Despite the poverty and hardships for so many, it is stil a state of great physical beauty and I consider myself lucky to live there. Of course, I do not have to carry buckets of wáter on my head from creeks up steep mountanside trails just to cook or wash my tush every day without fail - that is every day.on dry or muddy trails with steep slopes many of you cannot imagine negotiating. I do not know how they accomplish this task but I admie their tenacity. 

Preach about ´places with which you are familiar.


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## Longford (May 25, 2012)

Hound Dog said:


> [/B] When we left San Cristóbal for Lake Chapala in mid-April there was no wáter for citizens living in the elevated áreas of the city as, according to wáter authorities, the pumping equipment was inadequate to get the wáter up the hill but miraculously there was plenty of wáter for the hotels in centro catering to tourists during Semana Santa.


I was in Acapulco in January this year where, in various colonias ... include many along the beautiful Bahia Santa Lucia ... where there was no running water. The apartment I stayed-in received water via a garden hose strung up the mountainside to another colonia and the home of a friend of the owner of the apartment I stayed in. People in some of the colonias there were without water for months - as the central water supply was "improved." The tourist hotels, the big ones, all had water. One of the places I lived in in the D.F. was an _unidad habitacional_ where it was commonplace to be without water for days on end. We always kept buckets of water in the apartment ... _just in case_. Just another of the differences one has to get accustomed to in parts of Mexico - occassional/sometime interruption of services and nobody to complain to who will resolve the issue as you want.


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## AlanMexicali (Jun 1, 2011)

Not talking about municipal wáter companies. They are usually having some needed upgrades all over the place. I was talking about the PAN TV ads showing them constructioning large pipelines and building potable wáter plants and reservoirs and CFE running electricity to remote areas etc. 

Thanks for the nice comments.

I live and see what I see and hear what I hear and have for 35 years and is definately not a dream.

Mexico is changing quickly and no one can deny it if they get out of the house and speak and read Spanish and have an interest. 

Otherwise they can keep Googling on Google US in English and read the way the US wants them to see things in Mexico.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

Ahh, Acapulco. I miss you.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

AlanMexicali said:


> Otherwise they can keep Googling on Google US in English and read the way the US wants them to see things.


That dog won't hunt. Why don't you post on the US threads? Sorry you had such a rough life in the US and decided to run from it, and gave up trying to make it like you wanted it to be. But don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.


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## Isla Verde (Oct 19, 2011)

coondawg said:


> That dog won't hunt. Why don't you post on the US threads? Sorry you had such a rough life in the US and decided to run from it, and gave up trying to make it like you wanted it to be. But don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.


Why would AlanMexicali post on the US threads? He's lived in Mexico for many years. Where did you get the idea that he ran away from a tough life in the States?


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

AlanMexicali said:


> Not talking about municipal wáter companies. They are usually having some needed upgrades all over the place. I was talking about the PAN TV ads showing them constructioning large pipelines and building potable wáter plants and reservoirs and CFE running electricity to remote areas etc.
> 
> Thanks for the nice comments.
> 
> ...


Well said, Alan and you are certainly correct that the municipal services from electricity to potable wáter to improved highways have all grealtly improved in Chiapas and Oaxaca over the past few years and we as relative newcomers (2006) have benefitted greatly from those infrastructural improvements.

When we first arrived in San Cristóbal in about 2004, the drive up the steep mountain grades from Tuxtla Gutiérrez over a two lane twisting road took about two hours plus and was quite dangerous with many áreas where one drove along precipitous cliffs where the least mistake could result in catastrophic plunges into the ether. One of the reasons we bought there was the completion of the new autopista from Tuxtla to San Cristóbal straight up the edge of the escarpment which would presumable deliver one from Tuxtla to San Cristóbal in about 45 minutes but, as it turned out, the most difficult high mountain bridge over a precipitious gorge along the way was improperly engineered and unsafe to pass so the highway had to be closed for months while that particular bridge was redone appropriately. When the reconstructed bridge was finally reopened for travel, there was a huge religious ceremony at its edge and the Archbishop of San Cristóbal, an esteemed Catholic dignitary, was called upon to lead a ceremony on the bridge and bless its sanctioned reopening and, I must tell you, this was an important ceremonial event attracting untold thousands of participants and spectators and one had to almost believe that God had to respect this event and declare this marvelous engineering achievement free of further potential catastrophe. Let´s hope we are right about that.


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## mxfan (Jun 7, 2014)

Great to hear. I retired with 20 yrs CA cop and never expected to be paid except all cops know where the half price or free food is. 

Are you describing Fed, State, local or all MX cops. CA has POST (peace officer standards and training) certification for agencies and cops. MX have something similar?

Of course you know some MX cops will still accept money if offered as I have given for minor stuff. I am more educated about MX laws and customs now and follow the rules better so I haven't been stopped in awhile.


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

mxfan said:


> Great to hear. I retired with 20 yrs CA cop and never expected to be paid except all cops know where the half price or free food is.
> 
> Are you describing Fed, State, local or all MX cops. CA has POST (peace officer standards and training) certification for agencies and cops. MX have something similar?
> 
> Of course you know some MX cops will still accept money if offered as I have given for minor stuff. I am more educated about MX laws and customs now and follow the rules better so I haven't been stopped in awhile.


Now we have police schools, much more professional people coming out of them, and they are taught to not ask or accept bribes, yet, that is far from being solved.
One thing we could start doing in order to avoid bribing is work from our side and NOT PAY BRIBES, for as much as we could be tempted to do so. If we pass a red light, get a ticket and pay it! so what?
Tanto peca el que mata a la vaca como el que le agarra la pata


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

GARYJ65 said:


> Now we have police schools, much more professional people coming out of them, and they are taught to not ask or accept bribes, yet, that is far from being solved.
> One thing we could start doing in order to avoid bribing is work from our side and NOT PAY BRIBES, for as much as we could be tempted to do so. If we pass a red light, get a ticket and pay it! so what?
> Tanto peca el que mata a la vaca como el que le agarra la pata


Now, let´s see GARY; I often drive among Lake Chapala, the Chiapas Highlands, Veracruz, Puebla, Oaxaca, Guerrero, Michoacan and so forth. Let´s say I´m passing through Tehuantepec, Oaxaca as I often do. Several hours from my home in San Cristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas and my often destination of Teotitlan del Valle, Oaxaca and the nearby city of Oaxaca. Shall I, have I committed an actual infraction at an inconvenient hour, wait to pay the magistrate in Tehuantepec or pay off the cop and continue my journey on to Oaxaca City or San Cristóbal, both of which are significant tasks? No question in my mind.

I agree that there are no innocent parties in the cow´s slaughter but as long as it´s going to happen, facilitate the process.


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## coondawg (May 1, 2014)

GARYJ65 said:


> Now we have police schools, much more professional people coming out of them, and they are taught to not ask or accept bribes, yet, that is far from being solved.
> One thing we could start doing in order to avoid bribing is work from our side and NOT PAY BRIBES, for as much as we could be tempted to do so. If we pass a red light, get a ticket and pay it! so what?
> Tanto peca el que mata a la vaca como el que le agarra la pata


Suppose, Gary, for whatever necessary reason, I am stopped at 10 p.m. at night in Nuevo Laredo by Federales who say I was going "about 90" on the street where it is clearly posted 60 kph and that it is necessary for us to follow them to the other side of Nuevo Laredo to a police station to pay my fine, which they assure me is mucho. (BTW, we were doing the speed limit, but there was little traffic and we were the only car with NOB plates on the street, as NL is a ghost town mostly after dark.) My Mexican wife tells me it is very risky and dangerous for us to "follow" them across town at this time of night and we ask if there is someplace closer that we can pay. They say no, so I ask for a ticket. They say "no" because I have NOB plates, and we must follow them , unless we want to make other arrangements. My wife asks and they tell her that maybe 1000 pesos will cover the ticket (they can offer that discount if we pay now). After some negotiations, we convince them that all we have on us is 345 pesos... they even had suggested that if we had a debit card there was a bank near(we convince them we do not). They accept the 345p (we have been stopped for almost 40 minutes now, listening to their "preaching". We are free to leave, and we do. 
So, wise Gary, what should we have done and what would you have done? My wife tells me we did the only safe thing we could have done. She is Mexican and I am a WASP. You are Mexican and I doubt very seriously you would have been stopped as we were. Comment?


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

coondawg said:


> Suppose, Gary, for whatever necessary reason, I am stopped at 10 p.m. at night in Nuevo Laredo by Federales who say I was going "about 90" on the street where it is clearly posted 60 kph and that it is necessary for us to follow them to the other side of Nuevo Laredo to a police station to pay my fine, which they assure me is mucho. (BTW, we were doing the speed limit, but there was little traffic and we were the only car with NOB plates on the street, as NL is a ghost town mostly after dark.) My Mexican wife tells me it is very risky and dangerous for us to "follow" them across town at this time of night and we ask if there is someplace closer that we can pay. They say no, so I ask for a ticket. They say "no" because I have NOB plates, and we must follow them , unless we want to make other arrangements. My wife asks and they tell her that maybe 1000 pesos will cover the ticket (they can offer that discount if we pay now). After some negotiations, we convince them that all we have on us is 345 pesos... they even had suggested that if we had a debit card there was a bank near(we convince them we do not). They accept the 345p (we have been stopped for almost 40 minutes now, listening to their "preaching". We are free to leave, and we do. So, wise Gary, what should we have done and what would you have done? My wife tells me we did the only safe thing we could have done. She is Mexican and I am a WASP. You are Mexican and I doubt very seriously you would have been stopped as we were. Comment?


First of all, Mexican, Vietnamese or anything, I would not drive in Nuevo Laredo at 10 pm, nor alone or with any relative. Plain street smart.
Assuming that I did that, I take my cell phone and call for help to the emergency line, I tell them I am being mugged
Other idea, and I have done this one already, I told the cops that I've been recording everything with my cell phone and I will make charges if they insist on going to the police station, it worked like a charm, they got angry as hell and I left
That specific scene you are picturing is as close as it gets to being mugged, the difference is the uniforms and badges, I do not care about threats of any kind, I was kidnapped before and it is one of my life's rules to not do what criminals say, on the other hand, I try to stay safe.
Everyone has a story to tell, and probably some are unavoidable as to give something away, those would be most likely asaltos, and there is nothing you can do.
One other time I asked the policeman, a Commander as his badge said, to cut the crap and do it the proper way, stick out your gun and make a proper stick up, otherwise I will not cooperate or give my money away. Again, he got super angry and left.
that would be my opinion and examples, wise Coondawg


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## GARYJ65 (Feb 9, 2013)

Hound Dog said:


> Now, let´s see GARY; I often drive among Lake Chapala, the Chiapas Highlands, Veracruz, Puebla, Oaxaca, Guerrero, Michoacan and so forth. Let´s say I´m passing through Tehuantepec, Oaxaca as I often do. Several hours from my home in San Cristóbal de Las Casas, Chiapas and my often destination of Teotitlan del Valle, Oaxaca and the nearby city of Oaxaca. Shall I, have I committed an actual infraction at an inconvenient hour, wait to pay the magistrate in Tehuantepec or pay off the cop and continue my journey on to Oaxaca City or San Cristóbal, both of which are significant tasks? No question in my mind. I agree that there are no innocent parties in the cow´s slaughter but as long as it´s going to happen, facilitate the process.


That would certainly be one way to see it
I rather do anything before letting these thugs have my money, really, both positions are very respectable


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

GARYJ65 said:


> That would certainly be one way to see it
> I rather do anything before letting these thugs have my money, really, both positions are very respectable


Agreed that both positions are respectable. My experience in podunk is that, whether the money lines the pockets of the crooked cops on the road or the crooked magistrate the next day down at city hall is irrelevant. That money is buying bad coffee or rot-gut whiskey down at Billy Bob´s Café in Hooterville the next day for the crackers you ran across the difference being that if you line the cop´s pockets on site, you are on your way and out of there before they can hit you up again. By the time they awake the magistrate you have been in town way too long for your physical and mental well-.being.


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

GARYJ65 said:


> First of all, Mexican, Vietnamese or anything, I would not drive in Nuevo Laredo at 10 pm, nor alone or with any relative. Plain street smart.
> Assuming that I did that, I take my cell phone and call for help to the emergency line, I tell them I am being mugged
> Other idea, and I have done this one already, I told the cops that I've been recording everything with my cell phone and I will make charges if they insist on going to the police station, it worked like a charm, they got angry as hell and I left
> That specific scene you are picturing is as close as it gets to being mugged, the difference is the uniforms and badges, I do not care about threats of any kind, I was kidnapped before and it is one of my life's rules to not do what criminals say, on the other hand, I try to stay safe.
> ...


I do think driving around Nuevo Laredo, a town I have visited overnight on a few occasions a number of years ago but no more since I have no business there, is not prudent if avoidable. On the other hand, I don´t think challenging a pólice commander there to pull out his gun and rob you is necessarily a good move either.

I try to be at home, whether in Ajijic or San Cristóbal de Las Casas late at night when possible behind high walls and with alarm systems armed. Sometimes I violate those rules but, what the hell, you can´t stop living just because someday they´ll get youn one way or the other.


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## sparks (Jun 17, 2007)

No such thing as a "Mexican Cop". Federal, State, Municipio and Transito .... and now the Michoacan "Peoples Militia". Very little standardization across states, within them or even with a Municipal


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## Hound Dog (Jan 18, 2009)

In Chiapas, with about 4,000,000 people these days (2014), there is a hugely diverse populaton and, among the indigenous in particular, down-in-the tank drunkenness and serious domestic violence is endemic and there are signs all over public places in all urban áreas encouraging victims of abuse to report their abusers in confidence in order to mitigate this terrible problem and . furthermore , confidentialty is promised. Who do they think they are kidding? The municipal authorities who install those signs are about as serious as the rabbit who led Alice through the Looking Glass. If you do not quickly figure out who is and is not serious in places such as Chiapas, then you had better move on before you are spotted.

The local Maya and other locals of different ethnic pursuasions did not just arrive on the turnip truck.


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