# Right of Return



## reislust

Hi,
I am planning on converting to Judaism through the Conservative movement. I was wondering if anyone knows whether or not you have to convert through the Orthodox movement in order to be considered a Jew and be able to live in Israel under the law of return. I am not converting so that I can move to Israel, but I am hoping to study there for my master's degree at an Israeli university, so I may get a job there afterward and may decide to stay in Israel, so I just thought I might be able to get some information about how the system works. If anyone would be able to share some info with me on this topic I'd greatly appreciate it.


----------



## Eng.Khaled

I thought you are talking about the "Right of Return" for the Palestinians, as they are not allowed to go back, while any person converts to Judaism can take their place.


----------



## nauru

^ Ditto.


----------



## gerrit

I think I can handle this question because I would adore relocation to Israel but find myself in a difficult situation doing so because I am not jewish and not willing to convert (which makes it hard to get a job because non-jews need a working permit, which many employers refuse to pay when there's local or jewish candidates available)

There are two things you should consider: the Jewish religious institutions who follow Jewish law, and the State of Israel which in law is secular and does NOT follow Jewish law.

In terms of Jewish law, only converts through orthodox giur (giur = conversion) will be considered Jewish. 

However, the State of Israel accepts converts through other movements (liberal judaism, reform judaism, progressive judaism, ... Any branch although maybe humanistic judaism is an exception, but for sure any other branch is accepted) for making Aliyah. So it is not necessary to convert through orthodox judaism in order to use the Law of Return.

Then where exactly lies the difference? While the State of Israel accepts all converts, regardless of which branch, to use the Law of Return and become Israeli citizens, marriage is still done through the religious institutions and there is no legal marriage, only religious marriage. So when you don't convert through orthodox Judaism, you will not be able to marry inside Israel and need to (like many do already) take a boat or plane abroad (Cyprus is a popular wedding destination for non-orthodox Israelis) to marry. Non-orthodox marriages done abroad are however recognised by the State of Israel, even same-sex marriages. The one difference is that you cannot marry inside of Israel because that is done through the religious institutions who only consider orthodox Judaism to be in rule with Jewish law. The same can cause confusion when death and funerals are concerned: on Jewish cemitaries you can only be buried when you're orthodox ; there are however cemitaries for other branches, and for other religions, and for non-religious. 

So unless you insist on marrying in Israel itself and being buried in a jewish cemitary (which you may want in case your husband/wife is orthodox and you want to be buried in the same place as him/her), there is no need to be converted through orthodox judaism. Only if these items above are of crucial importance to you, it is necessary to convert through orthodox Judaism. To use the Law of Return and become Israeli citizen, reform judaism/liberal judaism/etc are fully accepted by the State of Israel.


----------



## junkymoe

Amazing.

My family owns part of the land on which Ben Gurion Airport is built on; and I am not allowed to return. Yet some person from Canada with zero roots to Palestine can 'return' to the land he has zero roots to.


----------



## gerrit

I assume you are of Palestinian descent? The right of return for Palestinians is a hot topic in Israeli politics indeed and I'm afraid that it will only be orchestrated in a better/more efficient way once the Palestinian State has gained sovereignity (within the borders of 1967, although it will take an electoral defeat to get rid of Netanyahu who clearly thinks Israel is entitled to parts of the lands beyond those borders ... but most Israelis I know dislike Netanyahu very much and I'd not be surprised at all if he won't be re-elected)

I too find the law of return frustrating although I can understand where it comes from. Back after World War II, Jews around the world needed a safe haven to settle and continue their lives. In that context, the law was justified. Maybe so many years later, it is time to reconsider this law. From my own atheist/non-jewish perspective: I can understand a Jew somehow has an emotional connection with Israel and wishes to make it his home, but a non-jew (be it someone of the Palestinian diaspora or a random person with affection for the area) can have that same emotion desire to settle there. In the end, the world is anyone's and nobody's property. The Law of Return can remain I'd say, however it should be reorganised in a way that non-jews (Palestinians in exile for sure!) are not blocked from settling in the area by that law. Because that is what often happens: it is hard to find a job with legal permits when you're not jewish, because it's so much cheaper and easier to get someone in who can make Aliyah based on jewish roots (even when he is not subscribing to the jewish religion at all)


----------



## knfevg

I will be quick and to the point:
1. To the OP, please double check with the Israeli embassy in your country which conversions entitle you for Israeli citizenship
2. Junkymoe: "zero root to"?!?!??!?!?! Learn some history first and than come back with claims.... Please show me ONE (1) mentioning of "Palestinian" nation in the history BEFORE '48 and that we will start talking about what rights you have for the country, compared to Jews.
3. Junkymoe again: Without any contradiction to the above, I do agree that contractually you might own a land in Israel as you could own a land in USA, EU or Asia. Why should you get a citizenship for that?
4. gerrit: first part of your answer (about Netanyahu) - I don't know who you friends are, although I tend to have some guesses, but my friends are split about 50/50 and I will assume that my friends list is much more representative of the Israeli people.
5. gerrit: THERE IS NO CONNECTION BETWEEN JOBS, CITIZENSHIP OR BEING A JEW!!!! Lot's of people in Israeli AREN'T Jews and have citizenship. Even more ex-pats are working in Israel, IF they can bring something that Israeli's doesn't have. Isn't it the same in EU (Belgium in your case)? I don't remember ANYONE in EU offering citizenships OR work permits UNLESS the person can contribute something that is not available (supposedly) locally.


----------



## Eng.Khaled

You clearly mix between the right of people from the same ideology to belong to one place (European Jews, Asian Jews, African Jews...etc), and the the right of people from the same ethnic group to belong to the same place(Arabs).

Regarding your question, I will not argue very much, I will just attach the following photos from the time when GB was controlling Palestine and Trans Jordan and Egypt, and will show you the coins of that time:
























knfevg said:


> I will be quick and to the point:
> 1. To the OP, please double check with the Israeli embassy in your country which conversions entitle you for Israeli citizenship
> 2. Junkymoe: "zero root to"?!?!??!?!?! Learn some history first and than come back with claims.... Please show me ONE (1) mentioning of "Palestinian" nation in the history BEFORE '48 and that we will start talking about what rights you have for the country, compared to Jews.
> 3. Junkymoe again: Without any contradiction to the above, I do agree that contractually you might own a land in Israel as you could own a land in USA, EU or Asia. Why should you get a citizenship for that?
> 4. gerrit: first part of your answer (about Netanyahu) - I don't know who you friends are, although I tend to have some guesses, but my friends are split about 50/50 and I will assume that my friends list is much more representative of the Israeli people.
> 5. gerrit: THERE IS NO CONNECTION BETWEEN JOBS, CITIZENSHIP OR BEING A JEW!!!! Lot's of people in Israeli AREN'T Jews and have citizenship. Even more ex-pats are working in Israel, IF they can bring something that Israeli's doesn't have. Isn't it the same in EU (Belgium in your case)? I don't remember ANYONE in EU offering citizenships OR work permits UNLESS the person can contribute something that is not available (supposedly) locally.


----------



## ArabianNights

Eng.Khaled said:


> You clearly mix between the right of people from the same ideology to belong to one place (European Jews, Asian Jews, African Jews...etc), and the the right of people from the same ethnic group to belong to the same place(Arabs).
> 
> Regarding your question, I will not argue very much, I will just attach the following photos from the time when GB was controlling Palestine and Trans Jordan and Egypt, and will show you the coins of that time:


Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhh those photos are AMAZING


----------



## knfevg

Eng.Khaled said:


> You clearly mix between the right of people from the same ideology to belong to one place (European Jews, Asian Jews, African Jews...etc), and the the right of people from the same ethnic group to belong to the same place(Arabs).
> 
> Regarding your question, I will not argue very much, I will just attach the following photos from the time when GB was controlling Palestine and Trans Jordan and Egypt, and will show you the coins of that time:


I realy dont want to get into this discussion (becuase I wont be able to prove you anything and you wont be able to prove me anything) but I never said that Palestine didn't exist. It did (for some time) but NOT as a country. The PALESTINIANS didn't exist as a nation. Palestine was habitated by Jews, Jordanians and Bediuns (and ofcourse Turks). You could call all of them Palestinians..... There is no connection between Palestinians and Palestine, besides the fact they were living here (as Jordanian Arabs mostely) as did Jews and other nations....


----------



## ArabianNights

knfevg said:


> I realy dont want to get into this discussion (becuase I wont be able to prove you anything and you wont be able to prove me anything) but I never said that Palestine didn't exist. It did (for some time) but NOT as a country. The PALESTINIANS didn't exist as a nation. Palestine was habitated by Jews, Jordanians and Bediuns (and ofcourse Turks). You could call all of them Palestinians..... There is no connection between Palestinians and Palestine, besides the fact they were living here (as Jordanian Arabs mostely) as did Jews and other nations....


None of your waffle makes sense, but anywho.... what evidence do you have that you are the original Biblical Israelites? I have evidence that I am - what evidence do you have?   

I mean, you don't even know which son of Jacob you descend from.....


----------



## Eng.Khaled

Again you are stating facts without proving anything.
and you deny what you said "Learn some history first and than come back with claims.... Please show me ONE (1) mentioning of "Palestinian" nation in the history BEFORE '48 and that we will start talking about what rights you have for the country, compared to Jews."

and again you are mixing between ethnic groups and people with same ideology. You can claim the right of an ethnic group to belong to one place, but you can't claim it to a group of people from different ethnic background.

The problem that you are highly effected by the Israeli propaganda (as you are Israeli) but you didn't provide any clue for your claims. Show me one piece of coin like the one I showed you here mentioning Jews or Israel or anything related to your claims... any thing before 1948.



knfevg said:


> I realy dont want to get into this discussion (becuase I wont be able to prove you anything and you wont be able to prove me anything) but I never said that Palestine didn't exist. It did (for some time) but NOT as a country. The PALESTINIANS didn't exist as a nation. Palestine was habitated by Jews, Jordanians and Bediuns (and ofcourse Turks). You could call all of them Palestinians..... There is no connection between Palestinians and Palestine, besides the fact they were living here (as Jordanian Arabs mostely) as did Jews and other nations....


----------



## Jynxgirl

A discussion that will go on forever, and never have an ending. 

Israel exists now. Palastine exists now. Israel is official. Palastine deserves to be official. Just make it happen. Stop the fighting. And get on with it. 

I need my favorite palastenian to get a real passport that he can easily travel on and come see me once home


----------



## hubbly_bubbly

A brief description from Wikipedia:

"In 1832 Palestine was conquered by Muhammad Ali's Egypt, but in 1840 Britain intervened and returned control of the Levant to the Ottomans in return for further capitulations. The end of the 19th century saw the beginning of Zionist immigration and the Revival of the Hebrew language. _The movement was publicly supported by Great Britain during World War I with the Balfour Declaration of 1917._ The British captured Jerusalem a month later, and were formally awarded a mandate in 1922. The non-Jewish Palestinians revolted in 1920, 1929 and 1936. In 1947, following World War II and the Holocaust, the British Government announced their desire to terminate the Mandate, and the United Nations General Assembly voted to partition the territory into a Jewish state and an Arab state. The Jewish leadership accepted the proposal but the Arab Higher Committee rejected it; a civil war began immediately, and Israel was declared in 1948."

What did one think the "non-Jewish Palestinians" were going to do? Welcome the biblically-minded invaders with open arms, embrace the Zionist movement and the world becomes a happier place? It was their HOME! And that's why it's called an OCCUPATION!

Anyway, for the record, this is how the State of Israel came into modern existence - and it certainly wasn't willed by God. 

Behind the Balfour Declaration: Britain's Great War Pledge To Lord Rothschild

Meanwhile the segregation, separation, racism, bigotry, propaganda and land-grabbing continues against the "Palestinians" unabated and unchecked. The Israelis, backed by _the_ most powerful countries in the world and they still can't shake hands and make a deal. 

When_ is_ enough, enough?


----------



## CatMandoo

Viva Palestine~!~!1:clap2::cheer2::cheer2::cheer2:


----------



## hubbly_bubbly

knfevg said:


> I realy dont want to get into this discussion (becuase I wont be able to prove you anything and you wont be able to prove me anything) but I never said that Palestine didn't exist. It did (for some time) but NOT as a country. The PALESTINIANS didn't exist as a nation. Palestine was habitated by Jews, Jordanians and Bediuns (and ofcourse Turks). You could call all of them Palestinians..... There is no connection between Palestinians and Palestine, besides the fact they were living here (as Jordanian Arabs mostely) as did Jews and other nations....


A timely, brilliant article.

The real 'invented' people - Opinion - Al Jazeera English

And no, just because it was posted on Al Jazeera, it doesn't mean it was written by a Israeli-hating Arab. Please read on. And please be sure to also read the posted link above on the Balfour Declaration.

Anyway. From the AJ article:

_"The singular triumph of the Zionist movement is that it invented a state and a people - Israel and the Israelis - from scratch. The first Hebrew-speaking child in 1900 years, Ittamar Ben-Avi, was not born until 1882. His father, the brilliant linguist Eliezer Ben-Yehuda, created a modern language for him to speak by improvising from the language of the Bible."_

_'And the Palestinians are every bit as much a nation. If the ultimate definition of authentic nationhood is continuous residence in a land for thousands of years, the Palestinian claim to nationhood is ironclad. They never left Palestine (except for those who either emigrated or became refugees after the establishment of Israel).

Those who deny that Palestinians have a nation base their case on two arguments, both of which are logically incoherent. The first is that Palestinians never exercised self-determination in Palestine; they were always governed by others from ancient times to the present day."_

"The second argument is Palestinians never thought of themselves as Palestinians until Jews started moving into their territory, that Palestinian nationalism is a response to Zionism."

Read the article for the conclusion.

Furthermore:



knfevg said:


> ..."zero root to"?!?!??!?!?! Learn some history first and than come back with claims.... Please show me ONE (1) mentioning of "Palestinian" nation in the history BEFORE '48 and that we will start talking about what rights you have for the country, compared to Jews...


That request is disturbingly condescending, rude and most obviously... terrifyingly false.

knfevg. May I humbly suggest that if you are really going to state that you have no proof of argument, then try and create a half-baked "waffle" cake, best not to post anything at all - especially seeing as though you seemingly have no idea of what you are talking about, imho. Or, that what you do know is very one-sided. Perhaps it is you that should learn some (proper) history?


----------



## John.Phillips

The fact that the world ignores the Palestinian Refugees in Jordan and Lebanon, while making Israel seem like the enemy shows just how little the world knows.


----------



## Guest

And why are there Palestinian refugees in Jordan and Lebanon?


----------



## hubbly_bubbly

John.Phillips said:


> The fact that the world ignores the Palestinian Refugees in Jordan and Lebanon, while making Israel seem like the enemy shows just how little the world knows.


Aw, gawd. Seriously.

And what should the world know... exactly?


----------



## Eng.Khaled

I guess he can google it abo shreek!



hubbly_bubbly said:


> Aw, gawd. Seriously.
> 
> And what should the world know... exactly?


----------



## hubbly_bubbly

Abu shu?

Ah. Okay. Googled him myself.


----------



## sensualspirit

Not to bring up this argument again b/c I'm ALL for peace & can't stand violence although I can yell if need be LOL, but what is someone to do when she's pro Palestinian & is a born Israeli, but never really lived there (raised in NA, both countries) & is considering going back? I went there for grade 10 & 11 & never forgot my experiences.

Of course I've been called an anti Semite b/c of my remarks about Jews & told I'm NOT really a TRUE Israeli b/c I never lived there most of my years, so what do I know.

I know there are more Israelis now that support Palestinians, but what percentage is that? Are they only the youngsters? I won't be able to stand being around people who trash talk Palestinians & of course I wouldn't stand by & watch an Arab try to kill an Israeli/Jew. I just heard of what happened in France.

I support both sides, as I *DON'T* tolerate terrorists of any kind or even Arabs who go & knife Israelis, but I can understand that the situation is similar to the blacks & the whites & it breaks my heart.


Michelle


----------



## JulesB

Eng.Khaled said:


> while any person converts to Judaism can take their place.


Actually, to move to Israel as a convert I'm 99% sure you have to convert orthodox. If you convert conservative then some sects of Jewish society won't consider you Jewish and that includes the chief Rabbi of Israel (whose Orthodox).


----------



## hubbly_bubbly

JulesB said:


> Actually, to move to Israel as a convert I'm 99% sure you have to convert orthodox. If you convert conservative then some sects of Jewish society won't consider you Jewish and that includes the chief Rabbi of Israel (whose Orthodox).


LOL! I don't think that's what he meant by his post. Just because the rabbi doesn't formally bless one's _kippah_, doesn't mean you can't make the Right of Return and take part in forming the greater State of Israel.

_"The Law of Return is legislation enacted by Israel in 1950, that gives all Jews, persons of Jewish ancestry, and spouses of Jews the right to emigrate to and settle in Israel and obtain citizenship, and obligates the Israeli government to facilitate their immigration. Originally, the law applied to Jews only, until a 1970 amendment stated that the rights "are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew". This resulted in several hundreds of thousands of persons fitting the above criteria immigrating to Israel (mainly from the former Soviet Union) but not being recognized as Jews by the Israeli religious authorities, which on the basis of halakha recognize only the child of a Jewish mother as being Jewish. Moreover, some of these immigrants, though having a Jewish grandparent, are known to be practicing Christians. This law does not apply to persons considered dangerous to the welfare of the state, who have a criminal past or are wanted fugitives in their countries with the exception of persecution victims. Jews who converted to another religion can also be denied the right of return. Since 1950 2,734,245 Jews have immigrated to Israel."_ - Wikipedia.

I don't think Palestinians care which or what sect emigrating Jews to Israel belong to - and neither does the State, as far as I can tell. In fact, the more the merrier for Israel, not Palestine, it seems to me. 

Yet... that there are differences of opinion amongst Jews as to who is actually Jewish, just takes the Right of Return to a whole other debased level, in so many ways. I know of stories, for example, from The Jerusalem Post, where religious sects have demanded men pull down their pants to prove their "Jewishness", when trying assimilate further into the society.


----------



## Jynxgirl

hubbly_bubbly said:


> I know of stories, for example, from The Jerusalem Post, where religious sects have demanded men pull down their pants to prove their "Jewishness", when trying assimilate further into the society.


 
Know not 'funny'... but it is. People are curiously stange about wanting other to 'fit' in with them.


----------

