# Newbie in Portugal - Bank Problems



## Mattskii (Oct 28, 2009)

Hi All,

Well, I am in the process of finding my feet here in Portugal. 

We are living in the centre of the country in a flat lent to us by a friend. Tomorrow we are going to take a second look at a property which we are interested in purchasing. We are almost certainly going to make an offer on it, which is very exciting. But I have so many questions it is just silly.

Biggest problem is that I have no way of opening a bank account. 

I basically have no address. I lived in Australia for the last 5 years, but I am English. I have a temporary UK address which is my parents, so no utility bills with my name on it from the UK. I have been living out of a camper van for the last several months. In fact I have nothing with my name and address on it since I left Australia at the end of March. I don't have copies of any Australian utility bills, didn't think to keep then as I didn't think they would be of any use! 

How can I get a bank account? and if I can't, how can I pay for the property I want to purchase? 

Can I be classed as a resident of Portugal yet, as I now live here - albeit in either a borrowed flat, or my motorhome? lol What's the details on that?

Can I even buy a property without proof of address somewhere in the world? 

Having been a nomad for the last 6 months I am finding going back to bricks and morter a problem I had not envisaged! :confused2:


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

Assuming you have a UK or other EU passport, you can use that to get a fiscal number and then with the passport and fiscal you can get a first (usually 5 years residencia) and then you can use the fiscal to buy the house. 

You don't need a PT bank account to buy the house (but it is more convenient) and you can transfer the money to buy the house from an overseas or offshore account.

You'll probably have to wait until you get a utility bill in your name either from your borrowed flat or newly purchased house before you can open a bank account. - For what it's worth, we use Millennium for our local bank and find them very helpful indeed...... their online banking is especially good. 

A word of warning about buying a house.........At least have it checked by a good builder before buying.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

As TM says your very first job is to get a Fiscal Number from your nearest tax office (NIF,Numero de Contributente, Tax Number) it's generally reguired with the first stage of purchase Promissory Note if your offer is accepted.
You can initially open as a Non Resident and could use your Parents UK address or your temporary address here you just reguire your passport & 7ish Euros.

Buying without a bank is no problem but you'll need to use a friends account or a Solictor account to get funds into Portugal for purchase. Equally there is no law that says you must have a bank or be a Resident

When you've completed purchase then opening an account should be easier as you'll have the generally necessary utilities bill etc.

Personally I'd try once I had the NIF use your Parents address in UK and see if a Bank would open an account so you have control of your money without involving a third party, we also are more than happy with Millennium


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## Mattskii (Oct 28, 2009)

Thank you for the info, very helpful. 

We already have fiscal number and used out friends flat as the address. Can you please explain what you meant by " 5 years residencia" Please, I am a little confused by that! lol

We will have the records changed to show our new address once we get it. 

It occurred to me last night that I have a bank statement which was sent to my parents address, I will get them to send it to me here I hope that will help me get an account. I also have a UK driving license with that address on, and a bill from a storage company (I don't know if this is counted as a utility though?) So I might be OK. 

We will certainly have a builder or surveyor look at the property. Although it does seem to be in excellent condition, and we could move straight in without need for any works. 

I also have a account with a company called currencyFair which I used to transfer money here to purchase a car. That might be possible to use for paying for the house. I don't know if we have to use a bank, or if any money transfer is acceptable?


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

You must Register as a Resident after 3 months and before 4th month, at Camara, the Registration is for a period of 5 years when it can be renewed for a 10 year period with a Permanent Resident Card
If you have a NIF then visit a bank explain situation and gauge reaction or what they'll accept, it's not the Bank as such but the regulations laid down by EU and Bank of Portugal
Utility Bills are Rates, water, electricity, telephone not I'm afraid a storage company but you never know.

You could probably transfer using a broker but payments are normally made at the time of signing by certified cheques or bankers draft so would think you will need to have funds cleared and available, no broker is likely to be able to guarantee a transfer arriving in an account at a specific date or time and very risky well foolhardy to pre pay before signing.

This is one of major difference when buying property in Portugal compared to other countries, the actual Deed or Escritura is where all parties or their representatives must be present, all paperwork is checked and all payments are made, to clear mortgages, loans and balance of purchase price paid and all interested parties sign to say completed


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## JohnBoy (Oct 25, 2009)

Matskii. If you open a bank account with either Millennium or their subsidiary Activo, then you will be able to transfer money between your UK account and PT account without charge and at an excellent exchange rate. Transfers of under £10,000 take 24 working hours if placed before 2 pm and up to 48 working hours if over £10,000.

Activo is primarily an Internet/telephone bank but they do have branches in major towns including Coimbra for those in Central PT. Accounts with Activo are generally free to operate.


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## Mattskii (Oct 28, 2009)

Thanks JohnBoy - I am heading in to town today to talk to the chaps at the Millennium Bank. There is, by chance, a branch very close to where we are looking to buy!


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## Maria Fenton (Mar 25, 2011)

Hi,

When my husband and I came to Portugal and eventually bought our house, we didn't need to have a portuguese bank account to do so.

We still had a bank account in the UK, and the estate agents took care of all the paper work.
The tranfer was made into the estate agents own bank account from our UK bank account.
For the transfer from the UK we paid £20.00 to our UK bank (Nationwide) and the usual fees to the estate agents in Portugal.

I am portuguese, but my husband wasn't.
Yes he got the fiscal number, then registered in Camera.
At the time (2008 and until november 2010) Nationwide didn't charge any fees for taking cash out of the cash point or using our bank card here in Portugal. So we were lucky. We oppened a portuguese bank account in november 2010 when Nationwide started to charge fee for taking cash out.

So after buying your house you can show bills from the place where you're living now as well as other form your new place, if you wait about 2 or 3 months.

What ever you do, do not open a bank account with BANCO NOVO which was called BES before all the recent corruption sacandal!

I live near Batalha, district of Leiria.
When you say that you are in the centre of Portugal, perhaps you are near me?


If you need any help, please let me know (send a private message here).
No strings attached! I have time on my hands and enjoy helping people who come and live here, as I was always wellcome in the UK where I lived for about 20 years.

Good luck and all the best!

Maria


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Personally I would never transfer funds to an Estate Agents account and only if I had proof it was a bonded clients account equally with a Solicitor

Using a Broker cuts out charges for transfers from UK Banks, using a Portuguese Bank Like Millennium or Santander that has arrangements for free transfer of funds from UK also ovoids fees from UK Banks


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## Maria Fenton (Mar 25, 2011)

Everything went well, as the estate agents were well known and also provided a solicitor to take care of all the legal paper work, including the deeds, in order to buy our house.

Since the New Member is having problems openning a bank account in Portugal, thought it may be a pratical option, just so they can buy the house then later sort out the bank account.


Nationwide provides a form that you have to fill in, it isn't a simple transfer.
Can't remembre all the details now, but didn't feel that I was overcharged.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Not saying you where overcharged just that there are free of fees options, as I said I personally would not trust my money to any Estate Agent or Solicitor that could not prove that money was going into a secure bonded client account that could not be accessed except for reason of transfer


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## Mattskii (Oct 28, 2009)

Maria Fenton said:


> Everything went well, as the estate agents were well known and also provided a solicitor to take care of all the legal paper work, including the deeds, in order to buy our house.
> 
> Since the New Member is having problems openning a bank account in Portugal, thought it may be a pratical option, just so they can buy the house then later sort out the bank account.
> 
> ...




Many thanks for your advice and offer of help! We are near Ansioa at the moment, don't know if that is close to you?

I am with Canoeman to a degree - I do not trust the estate agent one bit, and would not transfer any money into their account. I will not use their solicitor, and don't trust them with the paperwork. 

They have negotiated what looks like a reasonable deal on the property we want, but it was to be honest very over priced to start with, so it was not hard for them to reduce the price significantly. But just at the moment all the figures they have given me regarding tax, transfer fees, solicitors fees, basically everything, has been incorrect as far as I can tell. I am not slow at doing my research online and I have found out for myself what many of these things should cost. They have mixed up IMI and IMT, they want to charge me for expenses for which I am exempt. Property under €92,000 does not attract transfer tax, for example - this seemed to be news to them? They want to class my property as Rustico, when it is a bungalow!!! They say I should pay all these expenses to them to sort them out! This worries me! I won't be paying them a penny. The vendor pays the estate agent. I pay the solicitor, and any other expenses my solicitor tells me are due. 

I am appointing an independent solicitor of my own choice, as recommended by a friend, and I am having the property examined by a builder, also recommended. If I were to use the builder and solicitor who work for the estate agents then I can be very sure that they have the estate agents best interests in mind, and not mine!! 

I will attempt to open a bank account here this week. I am still waiting for some papers to arrive from the UK, so can't move too quickly on it, but at least I can introduce myself to the bank manager, and ask the relevant questions! 

Worst case scenario I will use the solicitors bonded client account, or even have a bankers draught drawn up for the relevant amount. 

Where there is a will there is a way!


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## Maria Fenton (Mar 25, 2011)

Hi, 
I agree that you must be careful!
Unfortunately there are people who aren't honest in all professions all over the world and Portugal is no exception.
In fact you don't have to pay any IMI at all, but make sure that your Solicitor gets in the application form for you to apply for IMI isemption at your local Finanças department (they will tell you how long you'll be isempt from paying IMI), otherwise you won't get it.
Someone I met from this site, recently, has been paying IMI on a house that they bought 2or 3 years ago, because their Solicitor didn't put in the paper work.
The Solicitor's fees were high enough, but the work wasn't done properly!
In the end, it maybe the Estate Agents as much as the Solicitors who don't do the work that they are supposed to do!
In my humble opinion, a small Estate Agent could be more likely to try and over charge you, rather than a chain of Estate Agents, who are all over the place and have bigger structures in place.


Ansião is about an hour away, north from where I live. 

Also make sure that all the land that comes with the house is registered and *measure it yourself before signing.*
From Porto de Mós (my area) up to the north most of the land is not correctly registered as it used to be simply passed on amongst the family, so there are a lot of disputes.
Even when it is registered properly, it may bring problems, as it is my case (not the agency's fault, we should have checked a few things ourselves and we didn't), but at least I have the law on my side, as my land is registered.

Ansião is a beautiful area, but be aware of access to hospitals and other essencial services.
It is a high risk area for fires in the summer.

As I said before, if you need help please let me know!
Rest assured that I won't charge you anyting at all!!!
Hope it all goes well for you!


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

IMI is property rates and not payable until you are owner and if a Resident you should qualify for a 3 year exemption but on a property of that value is peanuts
IMT is only payable on property value +92,407€
IS is payable though
This statement though would concern me " They want to class my property as Rustico, when it is a bungalow!!!" 
Rustico is a description of land not a property, think before you proceed further you should get your Solicitor to check carefully the property paperwork and make certain it is legal and correctly registered


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

As with many things here, the IMI exemption period seems to vary from area to area. We were first told we'd get 6 years exemption and in the end were given 4 years.


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## JohnBoy (Oct 25, 2009)

Matskii, Have sent you a PM.


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## JohnBoy (Oct 25, 2009)

travelling-man said:


> As with many things here, the IMI exemption period seems to vary from area to area. We were first told we'd get 6 years exemption and in the end were given 4 years.


Like TM says it varies with district and time. We have had two homes in Coimbra. The first bought eleven years ago had an eight year exemption. This one, bought four years ago only has five years.


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## Maria Fenton (Mar 25, 2011)

Regarding IMI: I found out recently (because of my friend who paid th IMI as their solicitor didn't get the form for them to apply for exemption) that you don't have to be a resident to get exemption from IMI as long as it is your only property in Portugal.

The amount of years has changed according to Government Budget.
In 2008, when my husband and I bought our house we were given 6 years, and later they added another 2 years, making a total of 8 years. I was lucky that they didn't go back on it, and that the changes didn't apply to me.

It seems that since the TROIKA came in, they have lowred this exemption substantially.

Yes, if the Estate Agents are saying that the house you want to buy is rustic property, that shouldn't happen.
In that case check that the house has been legally built ( you can check at your local CAMERA- COUNCIL) and that it is registered.

On the other hand, in portuguese you can say that a house is rustic, in the context of style!


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## Maggy Crawford (Sep 18, 2010)

We purchased in 2006, completed the purchase in January 2007 and moved in in August just before the 6 months expiry date. At that time you had to take up permanent residence within six months of completing the purchase. At first we applied for and were granted five years exemption which was later extended to eight years. So we will start paying in 2016 for 2015 tax, one year in arrears.


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

How do you apply for an extension of the IMI exemption?


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## Mattskii (Oct 28, 2009)

Thanks for the details everyone. 

I am creating a spread sheet of all the taxes and charges so that I can go over each issue with the Lawyer and not miss anything. I have IMI and IMT, but what is IS that was mentioned? (Stamp Duty?) 

Also, someone mentioned Energy Efficiency Certificates, like the ones we had to have done in the UK when I sold up last year. Are they also now required here? Should I ask the agent for one? 

Yes, our agent is a small company run from the UK. I am happy to purchase through them but won't use their solicitor or builder. I can be sure that they are working for them not for me, I don't need that.

About the 'rustica' question. I think from the figures they are trying to say that some of the land which comes with the property is classed as rustica. They said it takes a flat rate of 5% and the charge would be €50. My maths makes that a €1000 allocation of the purchase price to the additional land. The land is said to be 300 Meters squared, and is not growing land, but just trees on a hillside. Unless they mean the garden, which is planted up with veg and grape vines? Makes no sense to me, and I will certainly have an independent lawyer look closely at the paperwork relating to this. Coppied from their email to me:

"The tax for the "rustico" area (growing land) is 5% €50.00"

The house has been there for generations, built and rebuilt and extended over the years. Solid stone, lovely! 

And a very good price. Under the 92K threshold for IMT. 

Here's a thing: They also want to charge me for all the papers required by the vendor! Like the Tax office and Finance office paperwork to prove ownership and no outstanding debts. Surely he has to pay for the paperwork which he is responsible for providing? 

People! Who'd trust 'em huh! lol

I have been given a personal recommendation of a lawyer whom a friend has used a couple of times in the past, I will feel a lot safer having him on my team!  

Thanks again everyone!


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## Maggy Crawford (Sep 18, 2010)

I don't think you can. We simply received a letter through the post from Finanças stating the change in accordance with a change in the law.


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## Maria Fenton (Mar 25, 2011)

Hi,

Sorry, but I don't think there are extensions of IMI.

When my husband and I got na extra 2 years, it was because there changes on that particular year (I tihink it was 2009).

However you can find out for sure at your local FINANÇAS.
Make sure you take your fiscal number and all the paper work relating to your house.
There should be at least one employee that speaks english if you don't speak portuguese, otherwise let me know if I can help with regarding portuguese.


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

IMI exemptions must be applied for* by Residents only* within 60 days of purchase

It's a National scheme and since 2012 is for a period of 3 years providing VPT (tax value) is -125,000€ and your taxable income in year preceding purchase was less than 153,300€

Prior to 2012 for 2009-11 it was for 8 years if VPT was -157,500€ and 4 years if VPT was 157,500 to 236,250€
2007-8 same values but 6 and 3 years


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## canoeman (Mar 3, 2011)

Legally an owner *advertising* property with a Registered Estate Agent must have a valid Energy Certificate since Dec 2013, sounds maybe as these agents might not be Registered in Portugal? but either way the owner must supply at their expense a valid Energy Certificate for the property as Registered at the Escritura a sale cannot proceed without one

Rural property (IMT) is 5%
IS Imposto Solo Stamp Duty is 0.8% of purchase value
"The house has been there for generations, built and rebuilt and extended over the years. Solid stone, lovely! " but only if it's all legal, it's change of ownership that opens cans of worms


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## Maria Fenton (Mar 25, 2011)

Maggy Crawford said:


> I don't think you can. We simply received a letter through the post from Finanças stating the change in accordance with a change in the law.



I agree, it is exactly what happened to me. Got a letter from Finanças informing us of the change and extension from 6 to 8 years.


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