# Non EU spouse moving to Germany



## waqasars

Me and the wife are planning to move to Dusseldorf, Germany for the next few years. 

I hold an Pakistani passport, she holds Dutch. 

I understand that we can move there as a part of her exercising free movement rights. 

However, there are some requirements for me to acquire a German Residence Card. 

First of all, we're both self employed, we run online businesses together and therefore have reasonable cash flow to make the move and set ourselves up in Germany to continue our work. 

So far, the procedure seems to be: 
1. Acquire regular Schengen tourist visa.
2. Go to Germany, rent a house in Berlin 
3. Register the rental contract with the local town hall, get a certificate of some sort 
etc. 
4. Then go to the foreign office and try to acquire a residence card.

I have few questions which are given below.

1.Can i apply for residence card during first 90 days ( She will exercise free movement rights as job seeker).
2. What is the process time for residence card application now days?
3.I have Marriage certficate in English+ Urdu ( Attested by Forgien Office and Dutch Embassy). Do i need german translation of marriage certificate?
4.If i apply the residence card during first 90 days. Can they ask for Health insurance and Employment contract?
5. Which one is the best city for quick processing of application?

Please advise.


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## ALKB

1.Can i apply for residence card during first 90 days ( She will exercise free movement rights as job seeker).

*Yes. Just don't expect them to just issue a residence card on that basis. As far as I have heard, nowadays, the Ausländerbehörde tends to keep the application until after 90 days have passed and then ask for proof of health insurance and exercising treaty rights.*

2. What is the process time for residence card application now days?

*Same as before. Go to the Ausländerbehörde and submit your application with supporting documents:

https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/324282/en/

You can make an appointment through the link above.*

3.I have Marriage certficate in English+ Urdu ( Attested by Forgien Office and Dutch Embassy). Do i need german translation of marriage certificate?

*Yes. Is the marriage certificate apostilled?*

4.If i apply the residence card during first 90 days. Can they ask for Health insurance and Employment contract?

*
They can ask but you don't have to provide it within 90 days of arrival of the EEA national. This will likely result in the application being put aside until 90 days have passed. See my answer to question 1 - after 90 days have passed they can ask and you will have to provide proof if you want the application to be processed.*

5. Which one is the best city for quick processing of application?

*I thought you are asking about Berlin? You have to apply where you are resident.

Small towns seem to be able to work quicker as they have less applicants. This does not mean they can't or won't draw out the application to the maximum processing time of 6 months. Anything from decision on the spot to 6 months is possible.*

Please advise.


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## waqasars

Hi ALKB,

Thank you so much for quick response. So if everything will be complete then the process time will be 3 to 4 weeks?

1. Marriage certificate is not apostilled as Pakistan not member of Hague Convention. My marriage is also registered in Netherlands so i also have dutch registration certificate. 

2. As we are doing online business ( Providing remote support for US clients) . Can we also apply on self employment basis? Do we need any license for self employment. 

Please advise further.


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## *Sunshine*

waqasars said:


> So if everything will be complete then the process time will be 3 to 4 weeks?


In Berlin you'll be lucky to have everything sorted out in 3 -4 MONTHS! I would recommend choosing a different city.

Where are you currently living and have either of you had public health insurance within the past 5 years?


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## waqasars

Currently I am in Pakistan and my wife is in netherland. I never had any public health insurance. What about dusseldorf?


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## ALKB

Hi ALKB,

Thank you so much for quick response. So if everything will be complete then the process time will be 3 to 4 weeks?

*As I said, they can take up to 6 months as per EU law and due to the current migrant crisis, the alien departments are all working with a skeleton staff. *

1. Marriage certificate is not apostilled as Pakistan not member of Hague Convention. My marriage is also registered in Netherlands so i also have dutch registration certificate. 

*Okay, you'll need an official German translation in any case.*

2. As we are doing online business ( Providing remote support for US clients) . Can we also apply on self employment basis? Do we need any license for self employment. 

*Yes. You need to register with the relevant authorities and with the local tax office before you start trading in Germany. I don't know what kind of evidence the alien departments want to see for an RC application on the basis of self-employment.*

Please advise further.


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## *Sunshine*

waqasars said:


> Currently I am in Pakistan and my wife is in netherland. I never had any public health insurance. What about dusseldorf?


Düsseldorf should be better than Berlin.

Are you planning on moving directly from Pakistan to Germany? Or are you going to the Netherlands first? 

Have you already looked into the cost of health insurance in Germany? 

Does your wife have public health insurance in the Netherlands?


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## waqasars

First i will go to Netherlands on tourist visa and from there we will go to Germany.

Yes i know the cost of health insurance in germany.

yes my wife have public health insurance in germany.

@ALKB Brother so which marriage certificate should i provide them Dutch or Pakistan. I can go for apostill stamp for dutch certificate.


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## ALKB

waqasars said:


> First i will go to Netherlands on tourist visa and from there we will go to Germany.
> 
> Yes i know the cost of health insurance in germany.
> 
> yes my wife have public health insurance in germany.
> 
> @ALKB Brother so which marriage certificate should i provide them Dutch or Pakistan. I can go for apostill stamp for dutch certificate.


If that 'registration certificate' (whatever that is) is a regular Dutch marriage certificate then it would be preferable - documents from outside the EU may be subject to lengthy verification processes.


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## ALKB

Update that might be of interest:

Today I received a message from somebody who is attempting the Surinder Singh route via Düsseldorf. The residence cards for his family were decided on the spot (BRP's will follow in about three weeks due to printing process).

BUT! Please note that nearly a year of careful planning preceded this application.


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## waqasars

Dear ALKB thanks for the update. Can you please ask them about the appointment system in dusseldorf? Is it easily available or they need more time?

Did they apply the card during job seeker period?


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## waqasars

Dear ALKB can you please provide the answer of above mentioned question?


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## ALKB

waqasars said:


> Dear ALKB thanks for the update. Can you please ask them about the appointment system in dusseldorf? Is it easily available or they need more time?
> 
> Did they apply the card during job seeker period?


I haven't had any further contact.

He didn't apply as a jobsseker. He had a successful limited company in the UK for over a decade and moved this company to Germany. As I said, it took about a year of planning.


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## waqasars

Dear ALKB,

As my wife has registered accomudation in Netherlands. She also have the health insurance from Netherlands.

If we move to germany for job seeking purpose. Does she need to unregister from Netherlands accomudation and health insurance before moving to germany?

Regards,
Waqas


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## ALKB

waqasars said:


> Dear ALKB,
> 
> As my wife has registered accomudation in Netherlands. She also have the health insurance from Netherlands.
> 
> If we move to germany for job seeking purpose. Does she need to unregister from Netherlands accomudation and health insurance before moving to germany?
> 
> Regards,
> Waqas


That would depend on the laws of the Netherlands and I am not familiar with those.


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## waqasars

Dear ALKB,

Finallay we are going to start our journey in Germany. I have a question as we need to register our residence with muncipality. My wife is Dutch and i am Non eu citizen from Pakistan. Only my wife registration with muncipality is enough or do i need to register my self too?

Regards,
Waqas


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## ALKB

waqasars said:


> Dear ALKB,
> 
> Finallay we are going to start our journey in Germany. I have a question as we need to register our residence with muncipality. My wife is Dutch and i am Non eu citizen from Pakistan. Only my wife registration with muncipality is enough or do i need to register my self too?
> 
> Regards,
> Waqas


Everybody needs to register, even German nationals.


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## waqasars

Do i need to register before applying residence card? As i am going there in Schengen Tourist Visa.


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## ALKB

waqasars said:


> Do i need to register before applying residence card? As i am going there in Schengen Tourist Visa.


Yes, the registration certificate is one of the required documents.


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## waqasars

Hi ALKB,

Can you please advise with jobs finding. My wife is a speech therapist. She cannot do the job as speech therapist bcoz of language issue. 

What kind of jobs we can look for?
Can we get help from job centre for job finding?

Another question do you have any idea about appointment if we would like to apply the card during first three month of arrival? 

I mean to say is it to get the appointment. I can see the long wait in case of Berlin.


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## waqasars

Hi ALKB,

Can you please advise with jobs finding. My wife is a speech therapist. She cannot do the job as speech therapist bcoz of language issue. 

What kind of jobs we can look for?
Can we get help from job centre for job finding?

Another question do you have any idea about appointment if we would like to apply the card during first three month of arrival? 

I mean to say is it to get the appointment. I can see the long wait in case of Berlin.


----------



## ALKB

waqasars said:


> Hi ALKB,
> 
> Can you please advise with jobs finding. My wife is a speech therapist. She cannot do the job as speech therapist bcoz of language issue.
> 
> What kind of jobs we can look for?
> Can we get help from job centre for job finding?
> 
> Another question do you have any idea about appointment if we would like to apply the card during first three month of arrival?
> 
> I mean to say is it to get the appointment. I can see the long wait in case of Berlin.



I don't know what other kinds of transferable skills your wife has, so cannot possibly comment on job options. If she does not speak German, her options will be quite limited. She can register with the JobCenter but don't expect a lot of help, especially since she is not eligible for jobseekers allowance (unless she has been unemployed in the Netherlands and is bringing the required paperwork?).

Make an appointment online as early as possible and/or go to stand in line very early in the morning to get a number.


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## waqasars

ALKB said:


> I don't know what other kinds of transferable skills your wife has, so cannot possibly comment on job options. If she does not speak German, her options will be quite limited. She can register with the JobCenter but don't expect a lot of help, especially since she is not eligible for jobseekers allowance (unless she has been unemployed in the Netherlands and is bringing the required paperwork?).
> 
> Make an appointment online as early as possible and/or go to stand in line very early in the morning to get a number.


Thank you so much for your reply. She is not working in Netherlands since the last two years. What kind of paperwork they need for jobseeker allowance?


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## ALKB

waqasars said:


> Thank you so much for your reply. She is not working in Netherlands since the last two years. What kind of paperwork they need for jobseeker allowance?


Is she registered with the job center in the Netherlands?

Does she receive jobseeker allowance there?

If so, she has to go to her job center and declare her intentions to go look for a job in Germany.

There is a procedure for this so she can receive jobseeker allowance for up to three months in a different EU country. I am not familiar with job center procedures in the Netherlands, so she will have to ask her caseworker there.


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## waqasars

Hi ALKB,

My wife is not registered with job center in Netherlands. She is not receiving any kind of job allowance.


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## ALKB

waqasars said:


> Hi ALKB,
> 
> My wife is not registered with job center in Netherlands. She is not receiving any kind of job allowance.


Well, in that case she won't qualify for jobseekers allowance in Germany on arrival.


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## waqasars

Hi ALKB,

Thank you so much for your help. We are in Dusseldorf now. We have completed the Anmeldung with local town hall and got the confirmation. 

Now I am going to apply the residence card. I have a question that Immigration can personally visit our apartment during the process. I heard that in London immigration visited my friend house during the process.


Regards,
Waqas


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## ALKB

waqasars said:


> Hi ALKB,
> 
> Thank you so much for your help. We are in Dusseldorf now. We have completed the Anmeldung with local town hall and got the confirmation.
> 
> Now I am going to apply the residence card. I have a question that Immigration can personally visit our apartment during the process. I heard that in London immigration visited my friend house during the process.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Waqas


It's not the norm, but the alien department can and does visit people's homes if they suspect a sham marriage.


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## waqasars

ALKB said:


> It's not the norm, but the alien department can and does visit people's homes if they suspect a sham marriage.



Dear ALKB,

Thank you for reply. I am attaching following documents with my application. 

1.valid passport with valid visa, My wife passport( Eu Citizen)

2.A certificate of personal status (for example, a birth certificate, marriage certificate)

3.A current photograph ("Biometriefoto") according to Bundesdruckerei GmbH's 
photomedical chart

4. Residence Registration certificates of both of us.

5. My travel insurance.

6. Employment Letter and Bank Statement ( I am working remotely as Network Consultant for US company).


Is that good if i attach my travel insurance and income proof with this application. Secondly i am not able to find the appointment tab for the ( Residence card of EU family member) on below mentioned link.

Please have a look on below mentioned link and see if you can find something.


https://www.duesseldorf.de/auslaenderamt/termine.html


Thank you.

Regards,
Waqas


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## ALKB

waqasars said:


> Dear ALKB,
> 
> Thank you for reply. I am attaching following documents with my application.
> 
> 1.valid passport with valid visa, My wife passport( Eu Citizen)
> 
> 2.A certificate of personal status (for example, a birth certificate, marriage certificate)
> 
> 3.A current photograph ("Biometriefoto") according to Bundesdruckerei GmbH's
> photomedical chart
> 
> 4. Residence Registration certificates of both of us.
> 
> 5. My travel insurance.
> 
> 6. Employment Letter and Bank Statement ( I am working remotely as Network Consultant for US company).
> 
> 
> Is that good if i attach my travel insurance and income proof with this application. Secondly i am not able to find the appointment tab for the ( Residence card of EU family member) on below mentioned link.
> 
> Please have a look on below mentioned link and see if you can find something.
> 
> 
> https://www.duesseldorf.de/auslaenderamt/termine.html
> 
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Regards,
> Waqas


2. - You will need the marriage certificate, birth certificate will not do you any good.

6. - You will need to find out how to pay German tax, social contributions and health insurance on this income ASAP. Is this employed or self-employed income?

Residence card is under 'Antrag auf Ausstellung einer Aufenthaltskarte oder Daueraufenthaltskarte' (Residence Card or Permanent Residence Card).

Residence Card = Aufenthaltskarte = EU law

Residence Permit = Aufenthaltserlaubnis = Domestic German immigration law


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## waqasars

ALKB said:


> 2. - You will need the marriage certificate, birth certificate will not do you any good.
> 
> 6. - You will need to find out how to pay German tax, social contributions and health insurance on this income ASAP. Is this employed or self-employed income?
> 
> Residence card is under 'Aufenthaltskarte oder Daueraufenthaltskarte' (Residence Card or Permanent Residence Card).
> 
> Residence Card = Aufenthaltskarte = EU law
> 
> Residence Permit = Aufenthaltserlaubnis = Domestic German immigration law



Thank you ALKB. Yes i will attach marriage certificate. We are exercising treaty rights as job seeker as my wife is a Netherlands citizen. My wife is trying to find the job here. But it can take some time. 

Its a employed income. My company is based in USA. I am waiting for my German tax id then i can contribute with local tax.

For now i am attaching travel insurance and employment letter just to show that we can survive here. I have studied a same case in which he attached travel insurance and bank statement for the six month and he got the residence card in one month.


https://tempus-termine.com/termine/index.php?anlagennr=1&design=2&anliegenauswahl=ja&anwendung=34

its the link of appointment and i am not able to find Aufenthaltskarte = EU law. Please visit this and help me. Other way i can book the appointment over the phone or in person.

Again i would like to say thank you for providing the valuable information.

Regards,
Waqas


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## ALKB

waqasars said:


> Thank you ALKB. Yes i will attach marriage certificate. We are exercising treaty rights as job seeker as my wife is a Netherlands citizen. My wife is trying to find the job here. But it can take some time.
> 
> Its a employed income. My company is based in USA. I am waiting for my German tax id then i can contribute with local tax.
> 
> For now i am attaching travel insurance and employment letter just to show that we can survive here. I have studied a same case in which he attached travel insurance and bank statement for the six month and he got the residence card in one month.
> 
> 
> https://tempus-termine.com/termine/index.php?anlagennr=1&design=2&anliegenauswahl=ja&anwendung=34
> 
> its the link of appointment and i am not able to find Aufenthaltskarte = EU law. Please visit this and help me. Other way i can book the appointment over the phone or in person.
> 
> Again i would like to say thank you for providing the valuable information.
> 
> Regards,
> Waqas



Okay, keep us updated how it goes!

Just as an aside - from the date of registration you should have regular German health insurance, not sure travel insurance counts.

This is what I get when clicking on 'Terminvergabe' under 'Antrag zur Auststellung einer Aufenthaltskarte oder Daueraufenthaltskarte' in your first link.:

https://www.duesseldorf.de/formulare/terminvergabe-bei-der-kommunalen-auslaenderbehoerde.html


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## waqasars

ALKB said:


> Okay, keep us updated how it goes!
> 
> Just as an aside - from the date of registration you should have regular German health insurance, not sure travel insurance counts.
> 
> This is what I get when clicking on 'Terminvergabe' under 'Antrag zur Auststellung einer Aufenthaltskarte oder Daueraufenthaltskarte' in your first link.:
> 
> https://www.duesseldorf.de/formulare/terminvergabe-bei-der-kommunalen-auslaenderbehoerde.html



Hi ALKB,

Yes i also read that. They mentioned under certain circumstances. As far i know during first 90 days they cannot ask for health insurance and financial information.

I will keep you update.


Regards,
Waqas


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## waqasars

waqasars said:


> Hi ALKB,
> 
> Yes i also read that. They mentioned under certain circumstances. As far i know during first 90 days they cannot ask for health insurance and financial information.
> 
> I will keep you update.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Waqas



Hi ALKB,

We went to foreign office Dusseldorf. We waited 2 hours for our turn and they did not spoke a single word with us related to our case. They said come with a German translator. We said for foreigner and cant speak German. Their behave was rude. only German speaking thats it. We also complained this to Team leader but he was also same he said we have rules in German we cant understand English. 

I did not hear this kind of behave before. Now i am arranging somebody who can speak German and can go to foreign with us.


Regards,
Waqas


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## ALKB

waqasars said:


> Hi ALKB,
> 
> We went to foreign office Dusseldorf. We waited 2 hours for our turn and they did not spoke a single word with us related to our case. They said come with a German translator. We said for foreigner and cant speak German. Their behave was rude. only German speaking thats it. We also complained this to Team leader but he was also same he said we have rules in German we cant understand English.
> 
> I did not hear this kind of behave before. Now i am arranging somebody who can speak German and can go to foreign with us.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Waqas



Sorry to hear that. I am afraid that's not an uncommon situation.

German is the only official language in Germany and government officials are not required to speak English and to be honest, the type of person who becomes a bureaucrat in Germany tend to generally not be very linguistically inclined.

You may come across this situation whenever dealing with officials, if anybody is able and willing to communicate in English, that's just luck.

I am not sure whether you have said before, I may have forgotten - why did you move to Germany?

I mean, you work remotely for a US company, your wife has been unemployed for two years in a country she speaks the language of. Neither of you speak German. 

So, why would your wife think she would have better job chances in Germany than in the Netherlands?

Why not aim for the UK, Ireland, Malta or Cyprus where English is the/a official language?

Just curious because you seem to have made a very difficult move?


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## waqasars

ALKB said:


> Sorry to hear that. I am afraid that's not an uncommon situation.
> 
> German is the only official language in Germany and government officials are not required to speak English and to be honest, the type of person who becomes a bureaucrat in Germany tend to generally not be very linguistically inclined.
> 
> You may come across this situation whenever dealing with officials, if anybody is able and willing to communicate in English, that's just luck.
> 
> I am not sure whether you have said before, I may have forgotten - why did you move to Germany?
> 
> I mean, you work remotely for a US company, your wife has been unemployed for two years in a country she speaks the language of. Neither of you speak German.
> 
> So, why would your wife think she would have better job chances in Germany than in the Netherlands?
> 
> Why not aim for the UK, Ireland, Malta or Cyprus where English is the/a official language?
> 
> Just curious because you seem to have made a very difficult move?



Hi ALKB,

Thank you for your answer. I have arranged a friend who will translate for me. She is a speech therapist and she was not doing the job bcoz of some personal reasons. We choose Germany bcoz its not to far from Netherlands. Here in Dusseldorf we see there are a lot companies offering dutch speaking jobs. 

For UK, Ireland i needed entry visa and that is difficult from Pakistan. Schengen visa was not problem for me bcoz i have visited several times. 

My company tried H1B visa (USA) for two time but my bad luck i could not get that bcoz of lottery system. 

As a IT professional i dont see any problem to get a English speaking job here but before that i need work permission. 

Regards,
Waqas


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## ALKB

waqasars said:


> Hi ALKB,
> 
> Thank you for your answer. I have arranged a friend who will translate for me. She is a speech therapist and she was not doing the job bcoz of some personal reasons. We choose Germany bcoz its not to far from Netherlands. Here in Dusseldorf we see there are a lot companies offering dutch speaking jobs.
> 
> For UK, Ireland i needed entry visa and that is difficult from Pakistan. Schengen visa was not problem for me bcoz i have visited several times.
> 
> My company tried H1B visa (USA) for two time but my bad luck i could not get that bcoz of lottery system.
> 
> As a IT professional i dont see any problem to get a English speaking job here but before that i need work permission.
> 
> Regards,
> Waqas


EEA Family Permit for family members of EU nationals is free of charge and should take 15 days max, even from Pakistan. (I used to live in Rawalpindi and I know people who have received an FP without problem.)

But it may not be the wisest move to go to the UK now with Brexit on the horizon.

Good luck with the next appointment!


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## waqasars

ALKB said:


> EEA Family Permit for family members of EU nationals is free of charge and should take 15 days max, even from Pakistan. (I used to live in Rawalpindi and I know people who have received an FP without problem.)
> 
> But it may not be the wisest move to go to the UK now with Brexit on the horizon.
> 
> Good luck with the next appointment!


Hi ALKB,

I WENT AGAIN TODAY. HE MADE A NEW APPOINTMENT AND SAID HE WILL TALK IN DETAILS THAT TIME. HE DID NOT LOGIN THE APPLICATION YET. HE PROVIDED US A LIST OF DOCUMENTS WITH APPOINTMENT LETTER. 

He asked for my Birth Certificate, Insurance and work contract of my wife.

My question is He has to login our application and he cannot ask for work contract, insurance, My birth certificate during the first 3 months. 

Can you please provide any reference that cannot ask for Health insurance, work contract during first 3 months. 


I m shocked that he asked for my birth certificate. It was not mentioned on EU Commission website.

Regards,
Waqas


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## ALKB

waqasars said:


> Hi ALKB,
> 
> I WENT AGAIN TODAY. HE MADE A NEW APPOINTMENT AND SAID HE WILL TALK IN DETAILS THAT TIME. HE DID NOT LOGIN THE APPLICATION YET. HE PROVIDED US A LIST OF DOCUMENTS WITH APPOINTMENT LETTER.
> 
> He asked for my Birth Certificate, Insurance and work contract of my wife.
> 
> My question is He has to login our application and he cannot ask for work contract, insurance, My birth certificate during the first 3 months.
> 
> Can you please provide any reference that cannot ask for Health insurance, work contract during first 3 months.
> 
> 
> I m shocked that he asked for my birth certificate. It was not mentioned on EU Commission website.
> 
> Regards,
> Waqas



"CHAPTER III

Right of residence

Article 6

Right of residence for up to three months

1. Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a period of up to three months without any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport.

2. The provisions of paragraph 1 shall also apply to family members in possession of a valid passport who are not nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen.

Article 7

Right of residence for more than three months

1. All Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a period of longer than three months if they:

(a)


are workers or self-employed persons in the host Member State; or

(b)


have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State; or

(c)


—


are enrolled at a private or public establishment, accredited or financed by the host Member State on the basis of its legislation or administrative practice, for the principal purpose of following a course of study, including vocational training; and

—


have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State and assure the relevant national authority, by means of a declaration or by such equivalent means as they may choose, that they have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence; or

(d)


are family members accompanying or joining a Union citizen who satisfies the conditions referred to in points (a), (b) or (c).

2. The right of residence provided for in paragraph 1 shall extend to family members who are not nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen in the host Member State, provided that such Union citizen satisfies the conditions referred to in paragraph l(a), (b) or (c).

3. For the purposes of paragraph 1(a), a Union citizen who is no longer a worker or self-employed person shall retain the status of worker or self-employed person in the following circumstances:

(a)


he/she is temporarily unable to work as the result of an illness or accident;

(b)


he/she is in duly recorded involuntary unemployment after having been employed for more than one year and has registered as a job-seeker with the relevant employment office;

(c)


he/she is in duly recorded involuntary unemployment after completing a fixed-term employment contract of less than a year or after having become involuntarily unemployed during the first twelve months and has registered as a job-seeker with the relevant employment office. In this case, the status of worker shall be retained for no less than six months;

(d)


he/she embarks on vocational training. Unless he/she is involuntarily unemployed, the retention of the status of worker shall require the training to be related to the previous employment.

4. By way of derogation from paragraphs 1(d) and 2 above, only the spouse, the registered partner provided for in Article 2(2)(b) and dependent children shall have the right of residence as family members of a Union citizen meeting the conditions under 1(c) above. Article 3(2) shall apply to his/her dependent direct relatives in the ascending lines and those of his/her spouse or registered partner."


Source:

EUR-Lex - 32004L0038 - EN - EUR-Lex

Looks like they can ask your wife to register with the local JobCenter in order to be accepted as jobseeker.

No idea why they are asking for your birth certificate. First time I hear that. Did you ask why they want a birth certificate?

They are asking for an employment contract - did you tell them that your wife is applying as a jobseeker?

When did you register in Germany and what date is your new appointment now?

Remember, even if they log your application within 90 days of your arrival, they can then take up to 6 months to process the application and from day 91, they can ask for all sorts of documents proving the exercising of treaty rights (aka is your wife working or studying full time?).

In the last few years attitudes towards non-EEA family members have changed quite a bit and things got a lot harder and a lot slower.


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## waqasars

ALKB said:


> "CHAPTER III
> 
> Right of residence
> 
> Article 6
> 
> Right of residence for up to three months
> 
> 1. Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a period of up to three months without any conditions or any formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport.
> 
> 2. The provisions of paragraph 1 shall also apply to family members in possession of a valid passport who are not nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen.
> 
> Article 7
> 
> Right of residence for more than three months
> 
> 1. All Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a period of longer than three months if they:
> 
> (a)
> 
> 
> are workers or self-employed persons in the host Member State; or
> 
> (b)
> 
> 
> have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State; or
> 
> (c)
> 
> 
> —
> 
> 
> are enrolled at a private or public establishment, accredited or financed by the host Member State on the basis of its legislation or administrative practice, for the principal purpose of following a course of study, including vocational training; and
> 
> —
> 
> 
> have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State and assure the relevant national authority, by means of a declaration or by such equivalent means as they may choose, that they have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence; or
> 
> (d)
> 
> 
> are family members accompanying or joining a Union citizen who satisfies the conditions referred to in points (a), (b) or (c).
> 
> 2. The right of residence provided for in paragraph 1 shall extend to family members who are not nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen in the host Member State, provided that such Union citizen satisfies the conditions referred to in paragraph l(a), (b) or (c).
> 
> 3. For the purposes of paragraph 1(a), a Union citizen who is no longer a worker or self-employed person shall retain the status of worker or self-employed person in the following circumstances:
> 
> (a)
> 
> 
> he/she is temporarily unable to work as the result of an illness or accident;
> 
> (b)
> 
> 
> he/she is in duly recorded involuntary unemployment after having been employed for more than one year and has registered as a job-seeker with the relevant employment office;
> 
> (c)
> 
> 
> he/she is in duly recorded involuntary unemployment after completing a fixed-term employment contract of less than a year or after having become involuntarily unemployed during the first twelve months and has registered as a job-seeker with the relevant employment office. In this case, the status of worker shall be retained for no less than six months;
> 
> (d)
> 
> 
> he/she embarks on vocational training. Unless he/she is involuntarily unemployed, the retention of the status of worker shall require the training to be related to the previous employment.
> 
> 4. By way of derogation from paragraphs 1(d) and 2 above, only the spouse, the registered partner provided for in Article 2(2)(b) and dependent children shall have the right of residence as family members of a Union citizen meeting the conditions under 1(c) above. Article 3(2) shall apply to his/her dependent direct relatives in the ascending lines and those of his/her spouse or registered partner."
> 
> 
> Source:
> 
> EUR-Lex - 32004L0038 - EN - EUR-Lex
> 
> Looks like they can ask your wife to register with the local JobCenter in order to be accepted as jobseeker.
> 
> No idea why they are asking for your birth certificate. First time I hear that. Did you ask why they want a birth certificate?
> 
> They are asking for an employment contract - did you tell them that your wife is applying as a jobseeker?
> 
> When did you register in Germany and what date is your new appointment now?
> 
> Remember, even if they log your application within 90 days of your arrival, they can then take up to 6 months to process the application and from day 91, they can ask for all sorts of documents proving the exercising of treaty rights (aka is your wife working or studying full time?).
> 
> In the last few years attitudes towards non-EEA family members have changed quite a bit and things got a lot harder and a lot slower.



Looks like they can ask your wife to register with the local JobCenter in order to be accepted as jobseeker.

*We will go to job center register their for job seeking.*

No idea why they are asking for your birth certificate. First time I hear that. Did you ask why they want a birth certificate?

*I did not ask that. I had translator he told me this when we came out.*

They are asking for an employment contract - did you tell them that your wife is applying as a jobseeker?

*He was not ready to listen anything. He just made new appointment and said come on this date with these documents.*

When did you register in Germany and what date is your new appointment now?

*We registered in Germany on 15 Feb 2017.
*

He was racist. He asked me how you know your wife. I told him it is through the family and she is from Pakistani origin. 

You think so he should log application within 90 without work contract and insurance?


Regards,
Waqas


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## ALKB

waqasars said:


> Looks like they can ask your wife to register with the local JobCenter in order to be accepted as jobseeker.
> 
> *We will go to job center register their for job seeking.*
> 
> No idea why they are asking for your birth certificate. First time I hear that. Did you ask why they want a birth certificate?
> 
> *I did not ask that. I had translator he told me this when we came out.*
> 
> They are asking for an employment contract - did you tell them that your wife is applying as a jobseeker?
> 
> *He was not ready to listen anything. He just made new appointment and said come on this date with these documents.*
> 
> When did you register in Germany and what date is your new appointment now?
> 
> *We registered in Germany on 15 Feb 2017.
> *
> 
> He was racist. He asked me how you know your wife. I told him it is through the family and she is from Pakistani origin.
> 
> You think so he should log application within 90 without work contract and insurance?
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Waqas


A translator should translate for you in the situation, not act on your behalf and tell you things after the fact.

How was the guy racist? You can complain to his supervisor.

If you just mean the question about how you met your wife, that is a standard question when applying for a relationship-based visa (which you are). This is also not a German thing but pretty universal.

"How did you meet?" "Which language do you communicate in?" and similar are routine questions and if anything flags up, more questions will be asked, the couples' home visited, etc. This is to root out sham marriages and visa fraud.

There has been a huge spike in 'paper' marriages ever since high end people traffickers have cottoned on to the fact that getting married to an EU national and then relocating to another EU country is way easier than dealing with domestic immigration law.

Immigrating to another country is not an easy thing unless you get head hunted and get a nice cushy expat package, and even then you have the whole 'everything works different' thing to deal with.

You need resilience and a thick skin. You will have to deal with people of the entire spectrum from "YAY! Everybody welcome, have a plushy!" to "Go away!"

This is the same anywhere and is not limited to the western world. When I was living in Pakistan, I had people throwing job offers at me that I was not qualified for on one hand (seriously, wherever I went, it was ridiculous) and others grabbing me and yelling things I couldn't understand in my face at the local McDonalds.


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## waqasars

You think so he should log application within 90 without work contract and insurance?


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## ALKB

waqasars said:


> You think so he should log application within 90 without work contract and insurance?


I think he should log it without work contract, if your wife has a registration document from the local JobCenter. Obviously, I am not this person's supervisor, so my opinion and reality don't have to match. It could be a good idea to contact SOLVIT if he refuses to take your application.

Health insurance is a tricky one because German domestic law says that every resident has to have health insurance, which I think I had already stated somewhere in this thread. They may or may not accept your travel insurance. Does your wife have an EHIC card from the Netherlands or did she have to cancel her Dutch insurance when she moved out of the country?

Is this person your assigned case worker now or could you happen upon a different person at your next appointment?

By the way, be sure to take your translating friend with you to the JobCenter, too.


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## waqasars

ALKB said:


> I think he should log it without work contract, if your wife has a registration document from the local JobCenter. Obviously, I am not this person's supervisor, so my opinion and reality don't have to match. It could be a good idea to contact SOLVIT if he refuses to take your application.
> 
> Health insurance is a tricky one because German domestic law says that every resident has to have health insurance, which I think I had already stated somewhere in this thread. They may or may not accept your travel insurance. Does your wife have an EHIC card from the Netherlands or did she have to cancel her Dutch insurance when she moved out of the country?
> 
> Is this person your assigned case worker now or could you happen upon a different person at your next appointment?
> 
> By the way, be sure to take your translating friend with you to the JobCenter, too.







Yes my wife has a EHIC card from Netherlands. During the job seeking period she dont need to cancel. When she will get work contract of course she will get local insurance.

Well in appointment letter he mentioned his room number and his name. So we will go to him. But if we make the appointment at another time may be the person can be different.

But during last two appointments we went into the same room. There are many other rooms but but our appointment triggered for the same room.

Regards,
Waqas


Regards,
Waqas


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## *Sunshine*

ALKB said:


> I think he should log it without work contract, if your wife has a registration document from the local JobCenter. Obviously, I am not this person's supervisor, so my opinion and reality don't have to match. It could be a good idea to contact SOLVIT if he refuses to take your application.
> 
> Health insurance is a tricky one because German domestic law says that every resident has to have health insurance, which I think I had already stated somewhere in this thread. They may or may not accept your travel insurance. Does your wife have an EHIC card from the Netherlands or did she have to cancel her Dutch insurance when she moved out of the country?
> 
> Is this person your assigned case worker now or could you happen upon a different person at your next appointment?
> 
> By the way, be sure to take your translating friend with you to the JobCenter, too.


Sorry, but I have to disagree with most of what you wrote. 

I'm not sure how long it has been since you left Germany, however, Agenda2010 completely reformed the German social welfare system. The (misnamed) "JobCenter" in Germany is responsible for ALG II (commonly known as HartzIV) defined in SGB II. ALG II is basically welfare for residents under the reitrement age who are capable of working (SGB XII is welfare for those who are not able to work). 

Under the current laws, EU citizens are not eligible for welfare in the first three months in Germany as well as long as their only reason for being in Germany is to look for work (§7 SGB II). 



> § 7 Leistungsberechtigte
> 
> (1) Leistungen nach diesem Buch erhalten Personen, die
> 
> 1. das 15. Lebensjahr vollendet und die Altersgrenze nach § 7a noch nicht erreicht haben,
> 2. erwerbsfähig sind,
> 3. hilfebedürftig sind und
> 4. ihren gewöhnlichen Aufenthalt in der Bundesrepublik Deutschland haben (erwerbsfähige Leistungsberechtigte).
> 
> Ausgenommen sind
> 
> *1. Ausländerinnen und Ausländer, die weder in der Bundesrepublik Deutschland Arbeitnehmerinnen, Arbeitnehmer oder Selbständige noch aufgrund des § 2 Absatz 3 des Freizügigkeitsgesetzes/EU freizügigkeitsberechtigt sind, und ihre Familienangehörigen für die ersten drei Monate ihres Aufenthalts,
> *
> 2. Ausländerinnen und Ausländer,
> a) die kein Aufenthaltsrecht haben,
> *b) deren Aufenthaltsrecht sich allein aus dem Zweck der Arbeitsuche ergibt* oder
> c) die ihr Aufenthaltsrecht allein oder neben einem Aufenthaltsrecht nach Buchstabe b aus Artikel 10 der Verordnung (EU) Nr. 492/2011 des Europäischen Parlaments und des Rates vom 5. April 2011 über die Freizügigkeit der Arbeitnehmer innerhalb der Union (ABl. L 141 vom 27.5.2011, S. 1), die durch die Verordnung (EU) 2016/589 (ABl. L 107 vom 22.4.2016, S. 1) geändert worden ist, ableiten,
> und ihre Familienangehörigen,


Source: SGB 2 - Einzelnorm

Furthermore, in an effort to stem welfare tourism by EU citizens, the goverment is making it even more difficult for those who have never worked here:

https://www.bundesregierung.de/Cont...2-grundsicherung-auslaendischer-personen.html

Registering at the JobCenter is counterproductive for EU foreigners who are trying to establish the right to live in Germany. 

Furthermore, I don't see any reason to involve SOLVIT at this point, the Germans have not (yet) done anything to violate Waqas's wife's Treaty Rights. Although the first 3 months are Voraussetzungslos, the German government is not required to issue an Aufenthaltskarte within this time frame. In fact, AFAIK the Germans technically should not issue the Aufenthaltskarte until one of the Freedom of Movement categories are met. 

@Waqas

The easiest way for you to meet the requirements is for your wife to sign up for German public health insurance. This is only possible within 3 months of arrival and with proof that she was previously insured in the EU.


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## ALKB

*Sunshine* said:


> Sorry, but I have to disagree with most of what you wrote.
> 
> I'm not sure how long it has been since you left Germany, however, Agenda2010 completely reformed the German social welfare system. The (misnamed) "JobCenter" in Germany is responsible for ALG II (commonly known as HartzIV) defined in SGB II. ALG II is basically welfare for residents under the reitrement age who are capable of working (SGB XII is welfare for those who are not able to work).
> 
> Under the current laws, EU citizens are not eligible for welfare in the first three months in Germany as well as long as their only reason for being in Germany is to look for work (§7 SGB II).
> 
> Source: SGB 2 - Einzelnorm
> 
> Furthermore, in an effort to stem welfare tourism by EU citizens, the goverment is making it even more difficult for those who have never worked here:
> 
> https://www.bundesregierung.de/Cont...2-grundsicherung-auslaendischer-personen.html
> 
> Registering at the JobCenter is counterproductive for EU foreigners who are trying to establish the right to live in Germany.
> 
> Furthermore, I don't see any reason to involve SOLVIT at this point, the Germans have not (yet) done anything to violate Waqas's wife's Treaty Rights. Although the first 3 months are Voraussetzungslos, the German government is not required to issue an Aufenthaltskarte within this time frame. In fact, AFAIK the Germans technically should not issue the Aufenthaltskarte until one of the Freedom of Movement categories are met.
> 
> @Waqas
> 
> The easiest way for you to meet the requirements is for your wife to sign up for German public health insurance. This is only possible within 3 months of arrival and with proof that she was previously insured in the EU.



You are right, I think I am using the term JobCenter wrongly when I mean the Agentur für Arbeit - translation mistake due to time in UK.

One can register with the Agentur für Arbeit without receiving any benefits, (arbeitssuchend ohne Leistungsanspruch) they give a sort of certificate of registration indicating that the person is looking for work but not eligible to receive any payments at this point of time. 

https://www3.arbeitsagentur.de/web/...dstbai383747.pdf?_ba.sid=L6019022DSTBAI383750

This way she will at least have something to show that she is actively looking for a job.

While an RC application can be made as a jobseeker, I agree that it's unlikely that this will be issued before 90 days are up and evidence of exercising treaty rights has been provided.

I am not sure what exactly happened at the Ausländerbehörde and neither is the OP since his translator did not in fact translate. I am just a bit surprised at their reluctance to take the application - maybe that's just routine procedure and Waqas will be able to hand in his application at the appointment (although I have huge doubts about his hopes that his RC will then be issued within one month).

Personally, I wouldn't apply until a job is found and concentrate on finding one ASAP.


(By the way, are you a hockey fan? Every time I see your username I think: 'Beau Bennett!'  )


----------



## Bevdeforges

I admit that things have changed since I was living in Germany, but one thing that seems to be more or less consistent among the EU countries is that you do need to have "established" yourself in the country before they will accept an application for a non-EU spouse's residence permit. An EU national's status as a "job seeker" is only valid as long as they are receiving unemployment benefits from their home country through the Arbeitsamt (which is limited to 3 months). 

In France, being a job seeker does not get you any rights for bringing your non-EU family members into the country to join you. You really need to have a job and sometimes even a couple of months of payslips to prove it.
Cheers,
Bev


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## waqasars

Thanks guys for the suggestions. We are actively looking for job now. Hope so we can arrange this before appointment.

Can anybody tell how to find a doctor in my area for a routine check up. I tried but i could not. 

I will keep you update with further update.


----------



## waqasars

waqasars said:


> Thanks guys for the suggestions. We are actively looking for job now. Hope so we can arrange this before appointment.
> 
> Can anybody tell how to find a doctor in my area for a routine check up. I tried but i could not.
> 
> I will keep you update with further update.



We went to foreign office today. With all complete documents. We have arrange the job letter of my wife and health insurance. He has given us a new appointment and asked for salary slip. He did not register the case yet. I told him that my schengen will be expire before the appointment date. He told me your appointment letter is signed and stamped. so you dnt have any problem after the visa expiry. 

At appointment letter they did not mention any thing about visa expiry. 

My question is he should given the permission in written? 

Please advise further on this.


----------



## waqasars

waqasars said:


> We went to foreign office today. With all complete documents. We have arrange the job letter of my wife and health insurance. He has given us a new appointment and asked for salary slip. He did not register the case yet. I told him that my schengen will be expire before the appointment date. He told me your appointment letter is signed and stamped. so you dnt have any problem after the visa expiry.
> 
> At appointment letter they did not mention any thing about visa expiry.
> 
> My question is he should given the permission in written?
> 
> Please advise further on this.


Update on case:

Hi ALKB,

My residence card got approved today. Decision was taken on the spot. Card will be delivered in 4 to 6 week.

We have provided my wife contract letter, and Health insurance, Registration certificate, Marriage certificate, Birth certificate.

I would like to say thank you to ALKB. You always provided helpful information.


Regards,
Waqas Arshad


----------



## waqasars

Can we collect residence card from immigration office without prior appointment?


----------



## ALKB

waqasars said:


> Can we collect residence card from immigration office without prior appointment?


What does the letter say exactly?

I always thought the RC comes in the post...


----------



## waqasars

No, We have to collect it in person. I have a letter stating the tracking number. So i can track it and its available for collection. I can make the appointment online but its a bit late. 

I guess we can receive it in person without appointment. When i went for anmeldung that was also without appointment.


----------

