# Dual taxation arrangements between France and the United Kingdom



## Santiago102 (Aug 31, 2018)

I am still in the UK but planning to move to France in a year or so. According to UK tax law, I can spend more than 180 days overseas (with certain restrictions) without losing my residence status. If I obtain a French visa, I could stay in France for, say, 270 days in the next financial year. I understand that, if I stay in France for more than 180 days, I am automatically liable to French taxation. Clearly I would not want to pay any tax in France as I would be fully liable to UK tax on my (pension) income. France and the UK have an agreement about dual taxation such that, in principle, I would not be liable to French Tax. My question is - can I assume that no tax would automatically not be payable and just carry on without telling anyone, OR do I need to make some kind of declaration to ensure that the dual taxation rules will apply?


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Santiago102 said:


> I understand that, if I stay in France for more than 180 days, I am automatically liable to French taxation.


That's not really the case. The UK has laws regarding who is considered "tax resident" in the UK - and it runs to a couple hundred pages (or so I've been told). France has three criteria to determine "tax residence" - meet any one of them and you are considered to be tax resident and thus subject to French taxes (not just income tax but also "cotisations" - which are social insurances).

The three criteria are: 


> Article 4 B-1 of the French General Tax Code sets out the criteria for residence for tax purposes and stipulates that the following persons are considered to be residents of France for tax purposes :
> 
> 
> Those who have their household or main residence in France,
> ...







__





Residence for tax purposes and COVID-19 lockdown







www.impots.gouv.fr





(Note there is nothing there about 180 days.)


Santiago102 said:


> France and the UK have an agreement about dual taxation such that, in principle, I would not be liable to French Tax.


Also not exactly true. The UK-France tax treaty provides for which types of pensions are taxable by the UK vs. which are subject to French taxes if the taxpayer is considered tax resident in France (either instead of or at the same time they are tax resident in the UK).


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## Santiago102 (Aug 31, 2018)

Many thanks for your rapid reply. But I am more confused.

According to French-Property.com, the three criteria for taxation are followed (on the website although possibly not in the french Law)— “In order to assist with the determination of residency status the general rule that is applied is that if you spend *183 days* per calendar year in France then you are deemed to be resident.” Under *ii. Main Residence in France*, the Website states that—*“*You will be resident in France if you live in France for at least six months of the year. This rule does not require that you live in a permanent home you have in France, but that you are merely on French soil for six months of the year.”

Have they got this wrong? We have a house in France and pay both standard taxes for it but it is not our primary residence (which is in Lancashire). I am not sure that I follow the comment about the dual taxation. Does this mean that I should be very careful not to overstay the six months? Or am I OK just to go anyway, without any worries about tax?


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

In French law, if you spend at least 183 days in a single calendar year in France, you are presumed to be tax resident in France. (Basically under the idea that your "primary" residence is thus in France.) There are ways that you can argue this but due to the "presumption" the burden falls on you to show why you are NOT tax resident under those circumstances. Simply maintaining a house or a mailing address in the UK isn't sufficient to claim tax residence there - or rather isn't sufficient to rule out your being tax resident in France. But the 183 days presence isn't in and of itself proof of tax residence.

French law is more subtle than UK law. But in any event, you should take a look at the actual UK-France tax treaty as it explains in some detail which country gets first crack at each various type of income based on your tax residence.


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## Santiago102 (Aug 31, 2018)

Many thanks again. 

Of course, the presumption is the obvious one to make because most countries have a similar limit and so you can only be in one country as a resident for more than 183 days. It is only the UK with its rather odd residency rules (statutory residence test (SRT)) that allows a residency 'year' to add up to more than 365 days altogether. 

I suppose I could always take a chance on the basis that it is quite unlikely that my longer stay will be picked up, although, even with a visa, my passport will get stamped at Calais. The most cautious way to proceed is to keep our stay below 183 days, but I am not very happy with this. I will try to look at the treaty as you suggest. I have tried to email Service des Impôts des Particuliers Non-Résidents, TSA 10010, 10 rue du Centre, 93465 Noisy-le-Grand, Cedex (in French) but the email bounced back from [email protected], the email address I was given, probably because government offices change names and addresses as frequently in France as in the UK. I can write but that is a bit tedious, letters may not get there and the address may also be wrong. Phoning on such a complex (although basically trivial) issue needs French above my competence apart from the often poor quality of lines these days. However, my wife reminds me that we have French friends, one of whom works in a local tax office - and she may be able to advise me as to how to process this. I will post about any responses.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

I do think you're looking at this from the wrong angle. If you split your time between two or more countries, you don't get to choose which one you would rather pay your taxes to. There are rules and laws that apply and in the end you could wind up paying taxes to both or all countries, based on your particular circumstances. The relevant tax treaties only offer to let you *avoid* double taxation, not that you will fully eliminate it altogether.

I wouldn't waste time trying to contact the Fisc to ask them to advise you on your situation. They aren't the only tax authority to do this, but they don't generally give out any but the most general advise concerning future actions or possibilities and even if they do, they can't be held to what they tell you if merely speculating about what "could" or "should" happen after the declaration is filed or the deadline for filing has passed with no filing.

From personal experience I can tell you that much of French tax and immigration law/rules are enforced simply by integrating various procedures and paperwork into other administrative functions you are likely to eventually require. The classic example is the need to produce an Avis d'Imposition (i.e. the tax assessment for your income tax filing) as one of the necessary documents for many typical functions - registering a car, renewing a residence permit, for example.

I'm told there is also a notification that has to be made to the UK tax authority when moving overseas in order to get out of the UK tax system. Apparently this has to do with the two separate statuses in UK tax law - residence and domicile.


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## Santiago102 (Aug 31, 2018)

I am sorry to have apparently irritated you. Your second sentence seems to show that you have not understood where I am coming from, for which I apologise.

To emphasise, in no way have I said that I want to choose which country I would want to pay taxes to. I just don't want to be taxed twice!

I am currently a resident of the UK and will remain so for at least one more year because of other commitments. We intend to move to France eventually but until then will pay our UK taxes in full as other residents do. I have no desire to avoid any taxation to which I am liable. 

During the next year (which is the only time period I am considering) we can go to France under the 90-day rule for two periods 90 days apart. However, UK law allows me to go abroad for a longer period without losing my tax status as a UK resident. I would like to take advantage of this but prefer not to be treated as a French resident and taxed when I am being taxed already in the UK. The Double Taxation Convention (which I have now read) makes it plain that I should be treated solely as a UK (and not French) resident and taxed accordingly. It seems quite clear on this point so I should be able to claim back anything paid in France. Neveertheless, I do not want to get involved in what could be a lot of paperwork for the sake of a relatively short stay for one occasion only and involving what is, for the tax authorities, a very small sum of money.

Your last two paragraphs again assume that I am going to France seeking residence status. This is *not* the case for next year. We will do this in good time (in a year or so) and are fully apprised of what is involved, both in the UK and France. We will not be involved in any French or UK administrative procedures (other than obtaining a visa) during the period in question.

Bureaucrats being much the same in all countries, I realise that I am potentially asking for an 'exceptional' treatment which I am unlikely to get. So, I have two choices - (i) give up the idea of an extended stay in 2022, or (ii) go anyway and see what happens. I have only one more set of questions to ask - if I do go and come back and do not receive a tax demand before the end of the financial year, can I forget it? Or is the onus on me to make a tax return? How would I do this from a UK address?

Thanks again.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

I certainly didn't intend to sound "irritated" with you. We have lots of folks through here who seem to want to set things up so that they can pay tax only to whichever country they "want" to pay taxes to. It's kind of a standard disclaimer any time someone is talking about trying to tailor a "visit" or a stay in France so as to retain their residence in their home country - for tax or any other purposes. Many people simply don't understand that it isn't a matter of choice, but rather the "facts and circumstances" of their particular situation.



Santiago102 said:


> f I do go and come back and do not receive a tax demand before the end of the financial year, can I forget it? Or is the onus on me to make a tax return? How would I do this from a UK address?


In France, you won't receive a "tax demand" - at least not for income taxes. Even if you do move to France for the long term. And, as far as I can tell, even if you come over on a "long stay" visa, that doesn't seem to be tracked for tax purposes. You are expected to file a tax declaration at the appropriate time if and when you do take up residence in France - and if you don't when you should have, you'll be the one to bear the consequences of not having the proper documents down the line when you need them for some administrative purpose.


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## Santiago102 (Aug 31, 2018)

Many thanks again. I think I have taken up enough of your time on this, so perhaps we should let it go as it is. I have learned quite a bit through the process, which will come in handy when we do go to France permanently.


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