# taxes and medical insurance for americans



## annaschultz (Feb 6, 2018)

Most of the information I'm seeing is for British people or people with a Spanish spouse.

We are 2 mid-50s americans looking to retire in Spain. I'm having trouble finding tax and medical insurance information. 

I understand that after a period of time we can buy into the public medical system. I think.

How bad are taxes if you have assets but limited income? For a ballpark 1 million in assets and 40k/year income. 

To complicate matters, we are not married. In the US you pay more taxes if you are married. In Spain, does marital status change anything?

I appreciate any insight you can give.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Just a quick caveat - as US citizens, you never lose your "need" to file your US taxes. What you pay in taxes to which venue depends on the tax treaty. https://www.irs.gov/businesses/international-businesses/spain-tax-treaty-documents

Not the most fascinating read - but it does cover matters like US Social Security, investment income and such.
Cheers,
Bev


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

annaschultz said:


> Most of the information I'm seeing is for British people or people with a Spanish spouse.
> 
> We are 2 mid-50s americans looking to retire in Spain. I'm having trouble finding tax and medical insurance information.
> 
> ...


Worldwide income is taxed - not assets, though you will have to do an asset declaration each year.

This website has lots of up to date tax information Spanish law tax and more | Spain lawyers accountants in English | ADVOCO


Take a look at http://www.expatforum.com/expats/spain-expat-forum-expats-living-spain/2725-faqs-lots-useful-info.html where you'll find info & links to health insurance


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## skip o (Aug 1, 2011)

Spain absolutely taxes assets if you are over a certain amount. Google "patrimonio" or "wealth tax." One million in assets = you are paying a wealth tax in Spain.

FWIW, for me, income taxes are a little higher in Spain compared to the US, but property taxes are much, much lower in Spain than in the US. Healthcare is Spain is so much cheaper than in the US even if you pay out of pocket or for private insurance. Every time I compare the cost of a procedure or medication in Spain to the US, Spain is about 30% to 90% cheaper. You need to look into the Wealth Tax though. It can very by region, rates can change every year, and I believe Madrid doesn't have the Wealth Tax.

I think another big issue for you will be the visa. Spain doesn't welcome non-EU retirees with open arms.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

skip o said:


> Spain absolutely taxes assets if you are over a certain amount. Google "patrimonio" or "wealth tax." One million in assets = you are paying a wealth tax in Spain.
> 
> FWIW, for me, income taxes are a little higher in Spain compared to the US, but property taxes are much, much lower in Spain than in the US. Healthcare is Spain is so much cheaper than in the US even if you pay out of pocket or for private insurance. Every time I compare the cost of a procedure or medication in Spain to the US, Spain is about 30% to 90% cheaper. You need to look into the Wealth Tax though. It can very by region, rates can change every year, and I believe Madrid doesn't have the Wealth Tax.
> 
> I think another big issue for you will be the visa. Spain doesn't welcome non-EU retirees with open arms.


I missed the million bit! I don't know anyone with those kinds of assets!


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## annaschultz (Feb 6, 2018)

skip o said:


> Spain absolutely taxes assets if you are over a certain amount. Google "patrimonio" or "wealth tax." One million in assets = you are paying a wealth tax in Spain.
> 
> FWIW, for me, income taxes are a little higher in Spain compared to the US, but property taxes are much, much lower in Spain than in the US. Healthcare is Spain is so much cheaper than in the US even if you pay out of pocket or for private insurance. Every time I compare the cost of a procedure or medication in Spain to the US, Spain is about 30% to 90% cheaper. You need to look into the Wealth Tax though. It can very by region, rates can change every year, and I believe Madrid doesn't have the Wealth Tax.
> 
> I think another big issue for you will be the visa. Spain doesn't welcome non-EU retirees with open arms.


I know it's not simple for Americans, but I know people do retire there. I'm hoping someone who is just looking to retire and spend money without taking a job would be a top choice for a visa. I also speak Spanish, so I'm hoping that might help me as well. If Spain won't take us our next choices are Italy, France, or Germany. I love Germany but their health care is too expensive. 

My children are British citizens. Maybe last-ditch effort I can convince them to move to England and take me in


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## skip o (Aug 1, 2011)

annaschultz said:


> I know it's not simple for Americans, but I know people do retire there.


Let us know how it goes. We could use some more information from Americans who have gone through the process here, in my opinion.


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## xabiaxica (Jun 23, 2009)

skip o said:


> Let us know how it goes. We could use some more information from Americans who have gone through the process here, in my opinion.


We seem to get lots come & ask questions, but not many come back & tell us how they got on.

I've often wondered if they simply aren't successful so don't bother coming back. We have had some over the years who have been refused, or tried 'back doors' & had to leave.


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## Ifn (Jan 29, 2017)

annaschultz said:


> I know it's not simple for Americans, but I know people do retire there. I'm hoping someone who is just looking to retire and spend money without taking a job would be a top choice for a visa. I also speak Spanish, so I'm hoping that might help me as well. If Spain won't take us our next choices are Italy, France, or Germany. I love Germany but their health care is too expensive.
> 
> My children are British citizens. Maybe last-ditch effort I can convince them to move to England and take me in


I just moved here from the USA. Getting a visa was complicated, lots of paperwork, but there were no prohibitions to getting it as long as I had sufficient income for a non lucrative visa. It just took some time to coordinate it all. 
Now I just completed the process of getting the residency card...which for non EU people has a slightly different name. I hired an abogado to help me. It was 300€ but worth it just to decipher the legal jargon. Again, at the appointment, there was no negative vibe at all. 
I did pay a lot for health insurance to cover the first year here. Be aware of what your consulate requires for the visa. In NY , they said I needed proof of insurance. I was not eligible for private insurance from any spanish company due to pre existing conditions. But I bought a policy from a worldwide company...I think it’s Aetna. And when I asked the consulate what they require were specifically, they said they wanted to see 34000€ in coverage and that the policy handles the return of your body to the US, if you die. But check the consulate for your area. 
These were hurdles but DOABLE. Don’t give up. And if you need any advice, I’m here as someone who just did it.


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## annaschultz (Feb 6, 2018)

Ifn said:


> I just moved here from the USA. Getting a visa was complicated, lots of paperwork, but there were no prohibitions to getting it as long as I had sufficient income for a non lucrative visa. It just took some time to coordinate it all.
> Now I just completed the process of getting the residency card...which for non EU people has a slightly different name. I hired an abogado to help me. It was 300€ but worth it just to decipher the legal jargon. Again, at the appointment, there was no negative vibe at all.
> I did pay a lot for health insurance to cover the first year here. Be aware of what your consulate requires for the visa. In NY , they said I needed proof of insurance. I was not eligible for private insurance from any spanish company due to pre existing conditions. But I bought a policy from a worldwide company...I think it’s Aetna. And when I asked the consulate what they require were specifically, they said they wanted to see 34000€ in coverage and that the policy handles the return of your body to the US, if you die. But check the consulate for your area.
> These were hurdles but DOABLE. Don’t give up. And if you need any advice, I’m here as someone who just did it.


Thank you for sharing your experience. It sounds encouraging. The thing I'm most unsure of is getting copies of divorce papers. I was divorced about 25 years ago. I don't even remember exactly what year it was. Probably something I should check with the consulate. If I have to find that it could be a big task.


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

skip o said:


> Let us know how it goes. We could use some more information from Americans who have gone through the process here, in my opinion.


I would love to be one of them!! I do plan to post here as much as possible once I start the process. hoping to get to Spain mid 2020.


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## tobyo (Jul 16, 2011)

xabiachica said:


> We seem to get lots come & ask questions, but not many come back & tell us how they got on.
> 
> I've often wondered if they simply aren't successful so don't bother coming back. We have had some over the years who have been refused, or tried 'back doors' & had to leave.


I will come back!! :wave:

I'd love to know the reasons why some weren't successful. I wonder if one finds out the reason? Well, I hope that I won't be in that group. a ver........


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## Mares18 (Feb 18, 2018)

Ifn said:


> annaschultz said:
> 
> 
> > I know it's not simple for Americans, but I know people do retire there. I'm hoping someone who is just looking to retire and spend money without taking a job would be a top choice for a visa. I also speak Spanish, so I'm hoping that might help me as well. If Spain won't take us our next choices are Italy, France, or Germany. I love Germany but their health care is too expensive.
> ...


. 

Another American here. We are currently working through the visa process also for non-lucrative and plan to be there by summer. Taxes, insurance, and schools are at the top of my research list right now. Any insights would be so appreciated.


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## martinPH2 (Feb 21, 2018)

Another American here. Well, sort of. I hold an American passport as well as (now expired) Polish passport. I am planning on moving to Spain (Girona area) in Q3 of this year (2018). It appears that with the Polish passport renewed I will not need any visa. The residency status issue will remain. Optimally, considering Patrimonio and worldwide asset situation, I'd prefer being a non-resident but I think the 183-days rule will be hard to go around.

Questions:
1. at what point of time will I need Spanish driver license (or any EU country drivers license)? How long can I drive on US/international driver license?
2. what is required to open a bank account (I assume having one will make things like rent, health insurance, ... obtain easier)?
3. what is required to register the car?
4. what is required to obtain car insurance? any pointers to recommended insurance companies?
5. what is required to obtain health insurance? either state-provided if it's possible or private? (50 years old with no pre-existing conditions). Again, any pointers?
6. and finally, what are the best places to search for apartments/houses for rent? agents, for rent adds, CL equivalents, ...? Any pointers in what to look for and what to avoid in rental contracts?

Huh, lots of questions . Thanks much for any information.

Cheers.
Martin


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## AlexNYC (Aug 2, 2017)

Thank you for that Information. Any Americans in Valencia???


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## AlexNYC (Aug 2, 2017)

*Re: Bank Account*

Martin:

I hope you are doing well. You can open a bank account as an American with your passport. I just id it and I don't live in Spain (Yet) I can give you a contact person at my bank if you are interested. Alex




martinPH2 said:


> Another American here. Well, sort of. I hold an American passport as well as (now expired) Polish passport. I am planning on moving to Spain (Girona area) in Q3 of this year (2018). It appears that with the Polish passport renewed I will not need any visa. The residency status issue will remain. Optimally, considering Patrimonio and worldwide asset situation, I'd prefer being a non-resident but I think the 183-days rule will be hard to go around.
> 
> Questions:
> 1. at what point of time will I need Spanish driver license (or any EU country drivers license)? How long can I drive on US/international driver license?
> ...


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## martinPH2 (Feb 21, 2018)

AlexNYC said:


> Martin:
> 
> I hope you are doing well. You can open a bank account as an American with your passport. I just id it and I don't live in Spain (Yet) I can give you a contact person at my bank if you are interested. Alex


Hi Alex. Please send me PM. Great news. I also wonder if Spanish banks offer credit cards on similar terms as in US and in particular provide no questions asked fraud protection and offer some incentives like % kick back. I plan on maintaining my Bank of America accounts including Travel Reward CC which kicks back 2.25% use for any travel related expenses bonus (super happy with Bank of America on this side of the pond and would love to find a similar one on the other side).
Thx again Alex. Much appreciated.
Martin


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## AlexNYC (Aug 2, 2017)

*I cant send you a message*

[




martinPH2 has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore you may not send your message to him/her.

If you are trying to send this message to multiple recipients, remove martinPH2 from the recipient list and send the message again.QUOTE=martinPH2;14070338]Hi Alex. Please send me PM. Great news. I also wonder if Spanish banks offer credit cards on similar terms as in US and in particular provide no questions asked fraud protection and offer some incentives like % kick back. I plan on maintaining my Bank of America accounts including Travel Reward CC which kicks back 2.25% use for any travel related expenses bonus (super happy with Bank of America on this side of the pond and would love to find a similar one on the other side).
Thx again Alex. Much appreciated.
Martin[/QUOTE]


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## lashend (Dec 6, 2015)

Hi Anna,

I’m still trying to figure out taxes, and I’m sorry to say that I can’t help much on that front (yet)!

I did just go through the visa process and had to get health insurance. (I’m a USA citizen, too.) The best and easiest option for me seemed to be through Sanitas: www [DOT] sanitas [DOT] es. What seemed best for me and met all the requirements of the consulate (zero copay, repatriation of remains, minimum 30,000 EUR coverage) was the Sanitas Más Salud / Sin Copago / plus the 3-euro-per-month supplement for repatriation / repatriación en caso de fallecimiento. Prices are much, much lower than any global or US policy and seem to me to offer great coverage. One other nice thing: the people at Sanitas say that, once you’ve enrolled, you can (“usually”) solicit changes to your policy. In my case, for example, I don’t really want or need a 0-copay Cadillac version, but that’s what the visa requires, so that’s what I got; it’ll be possible to change the copay following arrival (and registration for the TIE, at which you have to present your insurance coverage again) to the same plan’s with-copay version in exchange for a lower monthly premium. 

Since you speak Spanish, chat or call directly with Sanitas to buy your insurance (rather than go through a middleman deal). They were really helpful in helping me figure out what I needed (and what I needed specifically for the visa). 

Good wishes!


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## kalohi (May 6, 2012)

martinPH2 said:


> Another American here. Well, sort of. I hold an American passport as well as (now expired) Polish passport. I am planning on moving to Spain (Girona area) in Q3 of this year (2018). It appears that with the Polish passport renewed I will not need any visa. The residency status issue will remain. Optimally, considering Patrimonio and worldwide asset situation, I'd prefer being a non-resident but I think the 183-days rule will be hard to go around.
> 
> Questions:
> 1. at what point of time will I need Spanish driver license (or any EU country drivers license)? How long can I drive on US/international driver license?
> ...


I'm assuming that you'll be moving here with your Polish passport, as an EU citizen. As an EU citizen you won't need a visa.

But I'm confused about how you say you'll be moving here but that you'd prefer to be non-resident. Well you can't have one without the other. If you come here to live you are automatically considered resident, and you have 90 days to sign onto the list of foreigners at your local foreigner's office. Once you have lived here for over 183 days in a calendar year you then become _fiscally_ resident - which is a different matter. So if you move here in Q3 of this year you wouldn't be fiscally resident until 2019.

I'll give a stab at some of your questions.

1. You can only drive using a US/international driver's license while you are here as a tourist. Once you are resident you need a Spanish or EU license.

2. You can open a non-resident bank account with just your passport. Non-resident accounts incur bigger fees, so it's in your best interest to change it over to a resident account once you're registered. And yes, you will need one to pay your utility bills, health insurance, etc.

3. Your question is too vague. Are you referring to a Spanish car? American? EU? At any rate there are plenty of posts here about registering cars. Use the search feature at the top of the page.

4. Getting car insurance is straight forward if you have a Spanish car and a Spanish licence, and very complicated/nearly impossible otherwise. I've had good luck with Linea Directa. 

5. You will need comprehensive health insurance in order to register as resident. You need a policy with no co-pay. It's VERY cheap here compared to the States - expect to pay somewhere around 50-70€/month. Most insurance companies will require that you have a NIE, but I know that Sanitas has a policy available for people in the process of moving here. After you've been resident for a year, in most parts of Spain you will be eligible to buy into the state health service system if you're interested.

6. As for finding an apartment/house to rent, have a look at idealista.com and fotocasa.es. You should be given a 12 month rental contract. 

Have a look at the stickies at the top of the page, because they include lots of information about all the things you're asking.

Good luck!


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## martinPH2 (Feb 21, 2018)

kalohi said:


> I'm assuming that you'll be moving here with your Polish passport, as an EU citizen. As an EU citizen you won't need a visa.
> 
> But I'm confused about how you say you'll be moving here but that you'd prefer to be non-resident. Well you can't have one without the other. If you come here to live you are automatically considered resident, and you have 90 days to sign onto the list of foreigners at your local foreigner's office. Once you have lived here for over 183 days in a calendar year you then become _fiscally_ resident - which is a different matter. So if you move here in Q3 of this year you wouldn't be fiscally resident until 2019.
> 
> ...


Kalohi,
Great info. Much appreciated. I indicated my preference of not being a (fiscal) resident with a pure desire of not being double-taxed but, on a more serious note, I agree with the concept of paying for what one is getting.

Yes, I will be moving into Spain with both Polish and US passports being valid.

Regarding 3) At this moment I plan on bringing my car from US. The car is a 2017 European brand. I am in a process of finding out if I might be facing some more serious homologation challenges plus if the registration can be processed VAT free.

Cheers


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## martinPH2 (Feb 21, 2018)

Regarding point 3) above I am starting a new thread (the car "business" in EU is so much more expensive than in US )


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## Mares18 (Feb 18, 2018)

I too have not been crystal clear on taxes. I believe the tax treaty with US means that if I’m paying US taxes, I don’t pay Spanish taxes? Is that correct?


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## martinPH2 (Feb 21, 2018)

Mares18 said:


> I too have not been crystal clear on taxes. I believe the tax treaty with US means that if I’m paying US taxes, I don’t pay Spanish taxes? Is that correct?


I do not think it is correct.
My understanding is that you end up paying higher of the two jurisdictions but you pay them in the following order (assuming and knowing that Spanish taxes are higher). You pay US taxes first and then you pay the difference between Spanish in US taxes to Spanish government.

Example
Earnings: 100K
Let's say you need to pay US $20K in taxes
Let's say you calculate your Spanish tax to be $27K
You pay $20K to US gov
You pay $7K to Spanish gov

This might be a simplified example but I think it presents the general idea.


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## Mares18 (Feb 18, 2018)

Thank you for your reply. This is the first I heard of that tax directive but it does make sense. For example, my child would go to public school and so I figure I should be accountable for that. That being said, doesn’t Spain tax at 40% above 50k? If so, and your tax understanding is correct, I believe that would preclude us from this travel plan as we make modest income (from US sources). I certainly can not afford to pay US taxes and then also the difference betrween 40% and my US tax bracket. We are halfway through the visa process with a goal of moving by June, but if this tax information is accurate then that’s the end of this plan, sadly.


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## Nononymous (Jul 12, 2011)

Refer back to a couple of recent discussions on the expat tax forum for further info. 

I believe the by-the-book procedure is, if you are resident in Spain, you pay Spanish taxes, which would be higher than US taxes. You then file a US return that uses either the FEIE or FTC to reduce your US tax bill to zero. Spain has first claim, since that is where you are living and using government services. Either way, you're paying the higher of the two rates.

If it's a one-year stay on a non-lucrative visa based on remote work only, you might well get away with just paying US taxes and staying out of the Spanish tax system. Probably not entirely kosher though.


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