# Still a US citizen or not?



## Chris72 (Sep 5, 2011)

Hi everyone! I'm 39, born in the US 1972 and my parents moved us to the Toronto Canada area in 1973. I grew up here and pay my Canadian taxes. In 2003 I applied for Canadian citizenship (born abroad to Cdn father, US national Mother) and got it no problem. Issued in 2004.

Before I got my Canadian citizenship I was a landed immigrant and had a US passport that expired in 2003. I never applied for a US passport again and have never gone back.

My question is am I still considered a US Citizen as well as Canadian? do I have to file taxes and FBAR??

I wasn't sure and am about to file IRS tax paperwork and foreign bank accounts (FBAR) info for the last 3 years! I'm scared I'll be hit with penalties as time is ticking...
Using H&R Block Canada whom is really slow... And the lady I have isn't sure if I should file under the amnesty program or just file quietly! Help!!!! Need advice


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## Auld Yin (Mar 10, 2009)

Chris72 said:


> Hi everyone! I'm 39, born in the US 1972 and my parents moved us to the Toronto Canada area in 1973. I grew up here and pay my Canadian taxes. In 2003 I applied for Canadian citizenship (born abroad to Cdn father, US national Mother) and got it no problem. Issued in 2004.
> 
> Before I got my Canadian citizenship I was a landed immigrant and had a US passport that expired in 2003. I never applied for a US passport again and have never gone back.
> 
> ...


You are a US/Canadian citizen which is not altogether a bad thing. As I understand it you are required by US law to file annual tax returns in that country and also you're only supposed to enter the USA using a US passport. If you go to the States on a regular basis it seems prudent to get this matter cleared up as in today's computerized world you may be detected while crossing the border, causing you no end of trouble. I suggest you contact the US Consulate in Toronto for guidance on the matter.


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## Chris72 (Sep 5, 2011)

Just seems crazy that according to the US government travel website I could lose my US citizenship by willfully applying for citizenship from another country! To get a new US passport there are sections that mention acquiring allegiance to other countries. It's all such a grey area!!!


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Chris72 said:


> Just seems crazy that according to the US government travel website I could lose my US citizenship by willfully applying for citizenship from another country! To get a new US passport there are sections that mention acquiring allegiance to other countries. It's all such a grey area!!!


Actually, it's not at all a grey area these days. The US announced sometime around 1990 that they were no longer going to "object" to dual nationality. Since then, they've pretty much ignored all that stuff about willfully applying for citizenship from another country, serving in a foreign army or even becoming a civil servant in a foreign government.

It's actually quite difficult to lose your US citizenship nowadays. You pretty much have to go to the local US consulate and formally renounce (after, of course, they have tried to talk you out of it). 

Frankly, H&R Block or no, I would NOT mess with the FBAR amnesty program unless you have significant non-US investments that generate income that potentially could have generated a US tax liability. (Don't forget to first offset Canadian taxes paid on that income, as you would normally do on your US income tax forms.) The FBAR statutes are designed to catch tax cheats, not "accidental Americans" with run of the mill type savings and investment accounts.

Even if they don't like how you filled out the forms, the first step is always just a letter with questions to answer. They should actually audit you before they can assess fines and penalties, and they don't bother auditing unless they feel there are some reasonably level of back taxes at stake.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Chris72 (Sep 5, 2011)

Ok I've found thatif I renounce my citizenship I'd have to go to the consular general. It was my intent back in 2004 to renounce my US citizenship at that time. If I start the process now, would it be retro active to 2003 when I applied to be Canadian? I didn't contact them when my passport expired in 2003 and applied for Cdn citizenship in 2004.

Keep in mind I haven't filed any tax paperwork nor FBars ever, but I do file and keep up to date Canadian taxes. I have RRSP, LIRA ( locked in retirement account pension), a regular company pension and a couple very low balance bank accounts. But because I'm common-law for 12 years seems it's not recognized and I made a deposit to a Spoucal account RRSP, I have to pay 2009 US taxes because it's not recognized as being under me (it was a lump sum deposit to the account from a company severance package). What a mess!

I'm not trying to hide but if I don't have to file 1040's and FBars if I was considered non US citizen as of 2004 that would solve my issues.


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

I think your renunciation takes effect as of the date of your appointment at the Consulate and you can't really back date it. In fact, they address the issue of prior tax liabilities specifically here:

Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship

Cheers,
Bev


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## Chris72 (Sep 5, 2011)

Thanks Bev....

Just a thought....if I put in my last 5 years of paperwork and FBAR's how long should I wait before trying to renouce citizenship?


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## Bevdeforges (Nov 16, 2007)

Chris72 said:


> Thanks Bev....
> 
> Just a thought....if I put in my last 5 years of paperwork and FBAR's how long should I wait before trying to renouce citizenship?


That, I really don't know. You'd probably have to talk to the consulate. Getting up to date on your tax filings is one requirement (apparently) for renouncing. Obviously, you'd have to give it long enough for the IRS to record the fact that you had filed.
Cheers,
Bev


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## Pathologic1 (Jul 12, 2011)

ZERO
Look at this site below for all the information on this topic.

You just have to file a form after you renounce saying you don't owe any taxes over the past five years. It sounds like a very simple painless process, much easier than any FBAR or tax filing (and much easier than one 4320) and they have similar costs (unless you have a high income of around 125,000 a year or a net worth of >2 million, in which case it can be prohibitively expensive). The FBAR is not part of any tax return so you don't have to say anything about them.

Site Overview | Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship: A Web Guide


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## Vangrrl (Aug 23, 2011)

As was mentioned above, I don't think you need to wait at all. You need to show IRS compliance (which means some number of years worth of tax returns - 5 or 6?). You are still on the hook for any taxes you owe to the US up until the day you renounce, even if the IRS didn't get around to looking at your returns until after that date. CRA will collect on taxes due the IRS even after you have renounced US citizenship.

My own plan was to wait until I have 6 years of tax returns filed (2012 for me) and then look seriously at renunciation.


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