# B&B questions regarding the practicalities/ legalities



## Hayley123

Hi everyone , a few questions regarding the practicalities of setting up a b&b post Brexit . We are looking to buy a house in France that is currently being run as a b&b (we would just be buying the house ,not the business as such,which suits us as there's a lot we'd like to change ).


What would we need to be able to show/ prove to obtain a visa that would allow us to stay indefinitely? We both currently work in hospitality,but have not owned our own business before.
From reading through other posts I can see that the general consensus is that you can't possibly make money from running a b&b in France- why is this thought to be so? Specifically ,is it the high taxation? Lack of customers? Etc etc?

Many thanks in advance


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## Befuddled

Both, plus rules and regs. This sort of thing is more likely to be "a little extra money" rather than a living income. I personally can't be more specific than that. Just and opinion gained from reading hundreds of posts about the topic over the last 20 years.


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## EuroTrash

For the visa: Visa application process | France-Visas.gouv.fr


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## EuroTrash

Like @Befuddled I've seen lots of discussions about this and one thing I seem to have picked up on, is that the gites/B&Bs that succeed are the ones that find a solution to the seasonality of the tourist trade and attract visitors all year round. 
If you only have full occupancy during the short French holiday season and you have minimal income for seven or eight months of the year, I don't see how realistically you can expect that on its own to be enough to live on.
So I guess it comes down to location and what there is nearby that will potentially bring you footfall 12 months of the year.


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## Hayley123

Befuddled said:


> Both, plus rules and regs. This sort of thing is more likely to be "a little extra money" rather than a living income. I personally can't be more specific than that. Just and opinion gained from reading hundreds of posts about the topic over the last 20 years.


Are there particular rules and regs that cause the issues?


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## Hayley123

EuroTrash said:


> For the visa: Visa application process | France-Visas.gouv.fr


So I've been through this a couple of times now,and it seems that unless I hold a master's degree in the area I'm wanting to work ( in this case hospitality?!) I won't be entitled to a business visa? Surely this can't actually be the case?


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## Crabtree

You really will have to show that you have experience in the field eg a verifiable employment history and or some sort of qualification in hospitality eg food hygiene etc .You will need to have a business plan and to show that you are going to be able to make a sustainable profit based on the property that you are buying eg previous years takings.Remember that you will need to speak French to a standard good enough to run a business and have an understanding of the french taxation system.As well as tax on profits there will be health cotisations social charges and pension deductions all of which are at a higher level than the UK. You say that you are going to do the place up-bear in mind that doing a place up in France is far more expensive than the UK and if it is going to be used for professional purposes then you will probably need to employ properly insured builders etc.
You also say "We" Are you married/in a civil arrangement? If not you will have to apply for Visas separately .Also bear in mind that if not married this cause problems with inheritance and tax.
You may want to check this out








Chambres d'hôtes (et table d'hôtes)


Proposer une chambre d'hôtes implique d'accueillir le client, de lui louer une chambre meublée ayant accès à une salle d'eau et à un WC, et de lui fournir le petit-déjeuner. C'est une activité professionnelle de nature commerciale ou agricole. Elle peut être exercée toute l'année ou à la saison...




www.service-public.fr




This is the official french govt website and is useful for all sorts of things and the link will take you the page for B and Bs called chambres d'hote in French.It explains what you need to do to get set up, the taxation regime etc but importantly note that cannot exceed 5 rooms otherwise you become a hotel and different rules apply.
You may find it useful the next time you are in France to visit the local Chamber of Commerce where you can help and guidance about setting up a business in France and what grants or other help may be available
www.cci.fr
Hope that has helped


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## EuroTrash

Sorry, I don't know.
I don't think there is any doubt that it's harder to get a visa to work or set up a business in France, than it is to move here say as a retiree. LIke every other country including the UK, France has designed its immigration policy primarily to benefit France, not to benefit would-be immigrants, and it's looking to pick the applicants that it sees as having the potential to make a significant contribution to the French economy / skills base / international reputation / culture / life etc. So for an entrepreneur they want to see a very solid business plan that will work in France and deliver something that will be of benefit to France and its citizens, and also proof of the applicant's ability to see it through. I wasn't aware that you need a masters in every case but if it says you do then I guess you do.
Looking at it the other way up, I'm not sure how easy or even possible it would be for an EU citizen to move to the UK to set up a B&B? Of the two countries I think France's immigration policies are by and large a lot less draconian.

Before Brexit you could have just done this without the need for a visa, but Brexit has changed things and the people who are affected the most by the loss of free movement are the Brits who would have liked to come and work in the EU, especially students, small businesses.and the self employed.


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## Hayley123

Crabtree said:


> You really will have to show that you have experience in the field eg a verifiable employment history and or some sort of qualification in hospitality eg food hygiene etc .You will need to have a business plan and to show that you are going to be able to make a sustainable profit based on the property that you are buying eg previous years takings.Remember that you will need to speak French to a standard good enough to run a business and have an understanding of the french taxation system.As well as tax on profits there will be health cotisations social charges and pension deductions all of which are at a higher level than the UK. You say that you are going to do the place up-bear in mind that doing a place up in France is far more expensive than the UK and if it is going to be used for professional purposes then you will probably need to employ properly insured builders etc.
> You also say "We" Are you married/in a civil arrangement? If not you will have to apply for Visas separately .Also bear in mind that if not married this cause problems with inheritance and tax.
> You may want to check this out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chambres d'hôtes (et table d'hôtes)
> 
> 
> Proposer une chambre d'hôtes implique d'accueillir le client, de lui louer une chambre meublée ayant accès à une salle d'eau et à un WC, et de lui fournir le petit-déjeuner. C'est une activité professionnelle de nature commerciale ou agricole. Elle peut être exercée toute l'année ou à la saison...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.service-public.fr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the official french govt website and is useful for all sorts of things and the link will take you the page for B and Bs called chambres d'hote in French.It explains what you need to do to get set up, the taxation regime etc but importantly note that cannot exceed 5 rooms otherwise you become a hotel and different rules apply.
> You may find it useful the next time you are in France to visit the local Chamber of Commerce where you can help and guidance about setting up a business in France and what grants or other help may be available
> www.cci.fr
> Hope that has helped


-That is all really helpful thanks- so when the visa website is asking for masters degrees,do you think that's something lost in translation and actually just some relevant qualifications such as the food hygiene is enough instead? There's such a world of difference between the two.
-We are married,so I guess that's easy enough.

My French is ok,but to be completely honest I don't think it's ever going to be at the stage where I'd be confident in conducting business matters. I'd intended to essentially pay someone to help with this,whether it's an English speaking accountant or one of these companies that will hold your hand through these various processes.
I can make a business plan,but I can see the trouble being that I've no idea if their b&b has been previously profitable.Whilst this doesnt concern me, as we would be doing a completely different thing, I wonder if this will be a stumbling block for the visa. Or indeed if we were to be buying a house to convert rather than a current b&b, obviously there would be no books to show.


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## EuroTrash

Re the masters thing, are you looking at the passeport talent? If so there is a bit more about it here that may be helpful Talent Passport : new business - Welcome to France


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## Hayley123

EuroTrash said:


> Re the masters thing, are you looking at the passeport talent? If so there is a bit more about it here that may be helpful Talent Passport : new business - Welcome to France


Thankyou,that does explain it more clearly. So the way I'd read that makes the situation a bit wooly I guess. We have more than 5 years experience in catering,but not specifically as working in a hotel or b&b,I wonder if that would be thought to be close enough ?

With regards to being able to show we have €19,000 Euros or so to be able to support ourselves,is that each ,and does that count our savings,or is that to be it considered on what the business may bring in? Do we only need to show we have enough to cover that for the first year? I appreciate your thoughts,this all seems to give me more questions than answers!


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## Bevdeforges

As ET has suggested, I think you may have been looking at the passeport talent visa, which is skewed toward people planning on setting up more tech-oriented types of businesses or other "innovative" ideas where qualifications and prior experiences are important. You may be looking at another sort of visa here, mainly one for those looking to start up a business in France. The key thing there is going to be a solid, well thought through business plan. You need to demonstrate that you are familiar with the various registration processes and the "cotisations" system (for social insurances), how you will invest initially in setting up your business, and where you plan on taking it. Example: will you be hiring additional people (and do you understand the requirements of French labor law and the tax system that will be involved). Where will your money come from? Who are you targeting as customers? What sort of occupancy levels will you need to turn the profit you expect? Business questions like that.

As far as your "support" is concerned - 19,000€ is barely enough for the first year. If you're counting on savings, you'll need to consider how much in income (i.e. interest, gains, etc.) your savings will generate. The immigration people aren't looking to have you burn through your life savings in your first year here and then find yourselves "stuck" if your plans don't work out or are simply taking longer than you planned.

Give some real time and attention to writing up a solid business plan - what you plan to do, how you're going to do it (financing, marketing, occupancy levels) and then read through what you have critically and see if you think you have something to offer France with your proposed business.


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## EuroTrash

Going on what I have picked up in the past from talking to French business advisors, France has defined a kind of blueprint for "how to create a business" which they firmly believe is the best recipe for success, and that is the process that business creators are expected to follow. Basically everybody who enlists the support of a state-trained business advisor, via the CCI or pole emploi or wherever, will be guided through this process step by step. I imagine that the bods who evaluate business creation visa applications think along the same lines so I would suggest you make sure that your business plan covers all of these aspects. This page outlines the steps to be followed
Comment créer une entreprise ? Les étapes à suivre | Bpifrance Création 
I can't find an English version of that web page but I think it's worth taking the time to run it through a translation engine and study it carefully because in my opinion there is a lot of very good advice on there. As I recall they do attach particular importance to the market research phase so don't skimp on that, show them that you have researched your market thoroughly using recognised methods. My gut feeling is that things like this could make a lot of difference because then, even if you have no formal business qualifications or experience of running a business, they will be able to see from your business plan that you have a good grasp of what is involved.


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## Hayley123

Thanks for your thoughts- I've definitely not been looking at the talent visa as that didn't seem to fit,rather just the business one,but even there it had the requirements of a master's,which does seem odd. We aren't intending to hire anyone at any point. Whether that's viewed as a giod thing or bad thing in not sure. I'm happy to write business plans,the issue I can see though is that I'll have to be writing them for purely hypothetical houses in hypothetical areas as we won't have been able to buy one prior to the knowledge that we'll be able.tontrade from it,if that makes sense?


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## EuroTrash

Hayley123 said:


> I'm happy to write business plans,the issue I can see though is that I'll have to be writing them for purely hypothetical houses in hypothetical areas as we won't have been able to buy one prior to the knowledge that we'll be able.tontrade from it,if that makes sense?


Our posts probably crossed, but - I don't think this is a go-er. I am pretty sure they will want to see a business plan that shows exactly what potential you have identified in the specific property you have chosen, and how you plan to exploit that potential. They need to see facts and figure and proposed strategies for YOUR business otherwise how can they possibly assess its feasibility? They don't need a hypothetical summary of running B&Bs in France, they already know all that.

Maybe it would be possible to decide on a property and see if you can make completion of the sale subject to you being granted a visa? I don't think that would be an unreasonable clause suspensive, although not every seller might accept it. I guess that if you have a compromis de vente on the property your business plan is based on, that should be sufficient.


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## Bevdeforges

That's a great resource you've recommended there, ET. Thank you for sharing it. 

We prepared a business plan for my husband's business way back when we started it - though there was no particular requirement to do so. I can highly recommend the process, if only as a way to clarify your own thinking. But I know one thing the visa granting people would be looking for is your awareness of the French regulations, ways of doing business and obligations of businesses and business owners.

BnBs in particular are renown for being adjuncts to existing operations (like farming) and not particularly suitable for earning the main source of income for a couple or a family - due, in part, to the time and effort required and the vagaries of a seasonal trade. You might be better off if you were buying the existing business of a successful BnB with plans to make innovative changes, but in any case, part of a solid business plan is going to be some well researched budget numbers - including how much you plan to charge your guests, an analysis of the area you'll be located in and what is available in that area to attract BnB guests, for how long and how they will get to and from the attractions and features in the area. If you're not going to hire anyone, how will you handle the marketing, administration (taxes, reports, inspections, etc.), maintenance of the facility (laundry, shopping, repairs, meal preparation, transport, etc.) between just the two of you.

Since you are betting your eligibility for a visa on this, you need to have a more rock solid plan than someone who already lives here and is getting by on some other sort of income, using a house they may have inherited and already somewhat familiar with how things work here in France.

None of this is said to put you off your plan. Just be sure to think through all the aspects of making a true business out of this rather than just a little money spinner on the side.


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## Poloss

Hayley123 said:


> From reading through other posts I can see that the general consensus is that you can't possibly make money from running a b&b in France- why is this thought to be so? Specifically ,is it the high taxation? Lack of customers? Etc etc?


A great deal of negative comments on the failure of B&Bs to generate a revenue come from the fact that 
many investors have little experience in hospitality, professional catering, running a business, successful advertising, organising reservations, *cleaning*, little knowledge of French clients' expectations and are unfamiliar with French administrative procedures *and* with the ways of French builders, electricians, plumbers and landscape gardeners.
I'll also mention that a successful B&B manager spends a certain amount of time with the clients - and empathy is important - not just the choice of furniture, clean bathrooms and pretty gardens.

Running a B&B business just for Brits, taking local Brit tradesmen for maintenance could have worked out maybe 20 years back but in these unpredictable times you need to be able to adapt to attracting other clients.

We ran a large resort up till 10 years ago and our former Belgian, Dutch, and French clients with who we still maintain contact would constituate ideal prospective clients for a B&B/gite adventure in the unlikely event that we choose that path.

Did you get access to the financial results of the B&B you have in mind?
Do you know the % of full weeks booked over the last three years?
Is the place already affiliated to a chain like AirBnB or Abritel?
Are the sellers French with faithful French clients?
What can you offer to make your B&B special compared to the others in the region?

I beleive that it's unrealistic to imagine that a B&B could provide a comfortable income for a couple once costs are deducted - simply breaking even and some pleasant encounters with interesting people while working hard would be more like it.
Getting a full-time outside job for extra money in hotel/catering would certainly be necessary


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## EuroTrash

I found this article on a random Google. I know nothing about Accueillir magazine but at first glance it seems a serious publication, looks to be informative and well researched. This article is quite recent and has a lot of interesting key figures and statistics in it.





Chiffres clé et statistiques du secteur des chambres d'hôtes


Chiffres-clé du secteur des chambres d'hôtes, nombre de loueurs, place des labels, créateurs, table d'hôtes, revenus moyens, tarifs pratiqués et rentabilité




www.accueillir-magazine.com




It concludes that the average chambre d'hôtes business with three rooms and 30% occupancy over the year, has a turnover of 30k pa representing a before tax profit of 8 700€.
Which I think highlights the importance of making darn sure you are well above average if you want to make a living from it.
Would be quite interesting to see if peeps on this forum who actually run bnbs in France, find any of these figures surprising or not.


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## Hayley123

EuroTrash said:


> I found this article on a random Google. I know nothing about Accueillir magazine but at first glance it seems a serious publication, looks to be informative and well researched. This article is quite recent and has a lot of interesting key figures and statistics in it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chiffres clé et statistiques du secteur des chambres d'hôtes
> 
> 
> Chiffres-clé du secteur des chambres d'hôtes, nombre de loueurs, place des labels, créateurs, table d'hôtes, revenus moyens, tarifs pratiqués et rentabilité
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.accueillir-magazine.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It concludes that the average chambre d'hôtes business with three rooms and 30% occupancy over the year, has a turnover of 30k pa representing a before tax profit of 8 700€.
> Which I think highlights the importance of making darn sure you are well above average if you want to make a living from it.
> Would be quite interesting to see if peeps on this forum who actually run bnbs in France, find any of these figures surprising or not.


So


EuroTrash said:


> I found this article on a random Google. I know nothing about Accueillir magazine but at first glance it seems a serious publication, looks to be informative and well researched. This article is quite recent and has a lot of interesting key figures and statistics in it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chiffres clé et statistiques du secteur des chambres d'hôtes
> 
> 
> Chiffres-clé du secteur des chambres d'hôtes, nombre de loueurs, place des labels, créateurs, table d'hôtes, revenus moyens, tarifs pratiqués et rentabilité
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.accueillir-magazine.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It concludes that the average chambre d'hôtes business with three rooms and 30% occupancy over the year, has a turnover of 30k pa representing a before tax profit of 8 700€.
> Which I think highlights the importance of making darn sure you are well above average if you want to make a living from it.
> Would be quite interesting to see if peeps on this forum who actually run bnbs in France, find any of these figures surprising or not.


Hi, thanks for the link,I couldn't find the article itself,but it looks helpful in any case. However I'm more confused than ever- are we saying here that of €30,000 , €21,300 is going in tax? So somewhere in the region of 65% taxes ??


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## EuroTrash

Hayley123 said:


> So
> 
> Hi, thanks for the link,I couldn't find the article itself,but it looks helpful in any case. However I'm more confused than ever- are we saying here that of €30,000 , €21,300 is going in tax? So somewhere in the region of 65% taxes ??


Dunno why the link doesn't work, it should take you straight to the page, which is headed
*Le secteur des chambres d'hôtes, quelques chiffres-clés*

No income tax will have been taken into account in their figures, the 8k is pre tax profit i.e. before taxes have been deducted. There would be no income tax to pay if that's the sole income..

Social charges (NICs) would normally be around 35% - 45% of profit depending on how the business is set up. The rest unless I'm missing something would all be business expenses - subscriptions to accreditation organisations and marketing platforms, commission to the likes of airbnb and booking.com if you use them, the cost of providing stuff to guests, laundry costs, water & electricity consumption, ongoing maintenance, insurance, advertising, admin costs, well those are the ones that occur to me but I'm sure you know better than I do what expenses are involved.

Would be nice to hear from someone who does this but I am not sure if any forum members do bnbs, although I think a few run or have run gites..


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## Le Portanel

Hi and good luck with the visas etc

We sold our house in the UK last year, bought in Dordogne in December and opened a Chambres d'Hôtes in our house in May this year. I've started a blog on the process here - we are newbies and still learning but feel free to direct any questions you may have to me.

Mark


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## Crabtree

Le Portanel-That is a good link and your place looks really good.But,as you say,you had the advantage of being married to an Eu passport holder and that makes life easier.
Funny that you mention Woodbridge I lived there till 2005 and have many happy memories


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## Le Portanel

Yes Woodbridge is great. I lived there for a while in a flat above the travel agents in Church St


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## EuroTrash

Very nice website.
However (and I can't believe my brain is still in the groove of focusing on boring cr4p like this even when I'm retired, how sad is that), I don't see your page of mentions légales obligatores? (website host, cookies policy, data protection etc)
Only takes a moment to put the page up, and could potentially save you a fine for not having it there. 








Mentions sur votre site internet : les obligations à respecter


Vous souhaitez créer un site internet ? Refondre un site existant ? Savez-vous quelles sont les informations que vous devez obligatoirement faire figurer sur votre site ? Que vous soyez micro-entrepreneur, entrepreneur individuel ou à la tête d'une société, retrouvez la liste de ces informations...




www.economie.gouv.fr




If you look at any French cdh website they should all have this, eg a few at random








Moulin Pont Vieux







www.moulinpontvieux.com












MENTIONS LEGALES & VIE PRIVEE - Château de l'Abbaye de Moreilles


Mentions Légales & Vie Privée



www.chateau-moreilles.com









Mentions Légales - Domaine Du Kelenn







www.domainedukelenn.com




etc

If it's there and I just didn't see it, or if there have been recent changes that mean you no longer need to do this, please ignore me!


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## Le Portanel

Great feedback. Thanks for that.
M


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## philthompson23

Le Portanel said:


> Hi and good luck with the visas etc
> 
> We sold our house in the UK last year, bought in Dordogne in December and opened a Chambres d'Hôtes in our house in May this year. I've started a blog on the process here - we are newbies and still learning but feel free to direct any questions you may have to me.
> 
> Mark


Hello there

i enjoyed reading your very informative blog posts. This is kind of a dream for me too. My wife is French, does that make things any easier? Also how much money do you make from this business a month? Do you have any other forms of income?

thanks!


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## Bevdeforges

philthompson23 said:


> My wife is French, does that make things any easier?


It kind of depends on how involved she is (or is willing to be). Certainly she will be more able to read all the various documents and handle the registrations. Or, it may be easier for her to find employment so that you have "fall back" income while you're getting yourselves established. If she has any experience with French administrative processes - particularly the business kind, she could provide invaluable assistance just in the form of handling that side of your operation. But if she has lived most of her life outside France, it will be her translation abilities that will serve you best.


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## EuroTrash

Perhaps what Phil is getting at is, having the automatic right to set up a business in France as a TCN.
In that respect, I believe being the spouse of a French national will make a difference. (I think this has been mentioned to him before?)


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## Bevdeforges

As far as having work privileges from the get go, then yes. But having the right to set up a business is a very different beast from actually wading through the bureaucracy. I know when we set up our business here, my French husband thought that having me (an MBA and accountant) in the family, he would have no problems with the "business side" of things - though thankfully, he had years of experience just working here in France. But I wound up having to learn all sorts of interesting accounting conventions and business customs (all in French, no less) on the fly. Sometimes you just follow the instructions as literally as you can and hope you've got it right. <g>


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## Le Portanel

philthompson23 said:


> Hello there
> 
> i enjoyed reading your very informative blog posts. This is kind of a dream for me too. My wife is French, does that make things any easier? Also how much money do you make from this business a month? Do you have any other forms of income?
> 
> thanks!


I think the 'French wife' question is covered by those who know better than me. As far as income goes, it is early days for us. We've been open 7 weeks and have taken around €5,000 gross so far. Bookings are looking strong for July and August too. Tailing off in Sep & Oct after that we will close until the spring. I'm hoping we'll take ~€20k gross this year. I have a modest private pension income too so (any) profits from the B&B will pay for holidays, meals out, treats, upkeep of the house etc. M


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## EuroTrash

Le Portanel said:


> I think the 'French wife' question is covered by those who know better than me. As far as income goes, it is early days for us. We've been open 7 weeks and have taken around €5,000 gross so far. Bookings are looking strong for July and August too. Tailing off in Sep & Oct after that we will close until the spring. I'm hoping we'll take ~€20k gross this year. I have a modest private pension income too so (any) profits from the B&B will pay for holidays, meals out, treats, upkeep of the house etc. M


Any comments you would be willing to share about running expenses, such as what percentage of turnover you have estimated for day to day consumables, marketing, annual registrations, insurance etc?


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## Bevdeforges

Le Portanel said:


> I have a modest private pension income too so (any) profits from the B&B will pay for holidays, meals out, treats, upkeep of the house etc.


I think with this attitude, you're definitely on the right path. As long as you're not in a situation that you need to live off your B&B earnings (i.e. basic food, housing, clothing, etc.) you can make a go of it. Good luck - and keep us posted how things are going.


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## philthompson23

EuroTrash said:


> Very nice website.
> However (and I can't believe my brain is still in the groove of focusing on boring cr4p like this even when I'm retired, how sad is that), I don't see your page of mentions légales obligatores? (website host, cookies policy, data protection etc)
> Only takes a moment to put the page up, and could potentially save you a fine for not having it there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mentions sur votre site internet : les obligations à respecter
> 
> 
> Vous souhaitez créer un site internet ? Refondre un site existant ? Savez-vous quelles sont les informations que vous devez obligatoirement faire figurer sur votre site ? Que vous soyez micro-entrepreneur, entrepreneur individuel ou à la tête d'une société, retrouvez la liste de ces informations...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.economie.gouv.fr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you look at any French cdh website they should all have this, eg a few at random
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moulin Pont Vieux
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.moulinpontvieux.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MENTIONS LEGALES & VIE PRIVEE - Château de l'Abbaye de Moreilles
> 
> 
> Mentions Légales & Vie Privée
> 
> 
> 
> www.chateau-moreilles.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mentions Légales - Domaine Du Kelenn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.domainedukelenn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> etc
> 
> If it's there and I just didn't see it, or if there have been recent changes that mean you no longer need to do this, please ignore me!





Le Portanel said:


> I think the 'French wife' question is covered by those who know better than me. As far as income goes, it is early days for us. We've been open 7 weeks and have taken around €5,000 gross so far. Bookings are looking strong for July and August too. Tailing off in Sep & Oct after that we will close until the spring. I'm hoping we'll take ~€20k gross this year. I have a modest private pension income too so (any) profits from the B&B will pay for holidays, meals out, treats, upkeep of the house etc. M


Thanks for the response, interesting stuff. How do you factor in things like new boiler etc big unexpected costs. Also have you managed to get a carte vitale and if not what are you doing for healthcare?


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## Le Portanel

EuroTrash said:


> Any comments you would be willing to share about running expenses, such as what percentage of turnover you have estimated for day to day consumables, marketing, annual registrations, insurance etc?


When we were deciding on the rates for our rooms, I estimated expense on running the B&B over and above what it would cost us to live here anyway and at that time I reckoned on about 50% profit before tax and social charges but I'm going to take stock again at the end of this season and see where we are with the benefit of hindsight. 

I'm trying to be generous in the rooms and in the guest area and of course at breakfast but without much waste which we are getting better at and getting good feedback. I'm using twice as much electricity as I was before we opened now we have pool pump running, two extra huge water heaters and the laundry but it is within budget.

We are of course losing 15% to booking.com but without them we would not be as busy so c'est la vie. It was quite cheap to buy www.leportanel.com and of course social media is good for marketing too.

House insurance went up by about 15% when we added on the liability for Chambres d'Hôtes. I used a broker who has been very helpful.

Haha these are all good ideas for my future blog posts thanks ;-)


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## Le Portanel

philthompson23 said:


> Thanks for the response, interesting stuff. How do you factor in things like new boiler etc big unexpected costs. Also have you managed to get a carte vitale and if not what are you doing for healthcare?


I have a Carte Vitale, in fact healthcare is the subject of this weeks blog which I'll upload on Monday (after breakfast for 8 guests and changing over two rooms ;-) ) so take a look later in the day tomorrow...

To be honest, the big unexpected stuff, we have kept back some £££ from the sale of our our house in England for that sort of thing. I'm making a list of the upgrades I want to make during the winter based on experience and feedback from guests.

Le Gouvernement have some interesting incentives to swap out gas and oil boilers for greener alternatives that I may look into next year.


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## Le Portanel

Bevdeforges said:


> I think with this attitude, you're definitely on the right path. As long as you're not in a situation that you need to live off your B&B earnings (i.e. basic food, housing, clothing, etc.) you can make a go of it. Good luck - and keep us posted how things are going.


Thanks  we had our first 'return guests' today who enjoyed themselves so much in May they have come back for some more


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## philthompson23

Looking forward to your next blog post. I had a look at your property on Google maps and saw it’s very close to the road and a petrol station. Are the roads quiet? What was the thinking in regards to location? Was situated within a village a must?


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## Clic Clac

philthompson23 said:


> I had a look at your property on Google maps and saw it’s very close to the road and a petrol station. Are the roads quiet? What was the thinking in regards to location?


When siting a Guest House 'business location' often has to over rule any preferred choice of 'residential location', particularly if you are having to rely on a certain amount of passing trade.


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## philthompson23

Clic Clac said:


> When siting a Guest House 'business location' often has to over rule any preferred choice of 'residential location', particularly if you are having to rely on a certain amount of passing trade.


That makes sense !


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## Le Portanel

philthompson23 said:


> Looking forward to your next blog post. I had a look at your property on Google maps and saw it’s very close to the road and a petrol station. Are the roads quiet? What was the thinking in regards to location? Was situated within a village a must?


Yes we are on quite a busy road and it is busy during the week. The garage and the school across the road are fine, no problems. The double glazing we have along with the insulation I have put in the roof takes care of the road noise, but the 2 rooms on the front of the house can be noisy if you open the windows, so we price those a bit lower to reflect this.

We did look at other properties that were not on a busy road but they either had no outdoor space, was was a must, or they were not in walking distance of bars and restaurants which we are. I'm guessing there will always be compromises to made....


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## philthompson23

How much “passing trade” do you actually get? I was under the assumption most bookings are made we’ll in advance..


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## Le Portanel

philthompson23 said:


> How much “passing trade” do you actually get? I was under the assumption most bookings are made we’ll in advance..


As rule we're not accepting same day bookings so in theory very little indeed. We decided it would ensure we are fully prepared for all our guests and it gives us a chance to swap a couple of emails with guests before arrival etc. I have made a couple of exceptions where appropriate of course


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## philthompson23

Very interesting new post on health care. My I ask what documentation you needed to provide PUMA with?


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## Le Portanel

philthompson23 said:


> Very interesting new post on health care. My I ask what documentation you needed to provide PUMA with?


Here is an extract of the letter I sent listing the enclosures - excuse my emerging French, I'm learning...

Une photocopie de mon passeport
Une photocopie de ma carte de séjour
Une copie de mon acte de naissance en anglais ainsi que la traduction en français
Une copie de mon acte de mariage en anglais ainsi que la traduction en français
Comme preuves que je suis en France depuis trois mois, vous trouverez les documents suivants:
Les billets de ferry du 22/7/21
Réservation d’hébergement
Une attestation d’hébergement de notre hôte, M. Portway
Le passeport de M. Portway
Une facture avec l’adresse de M. Portway

Un relevé bancaire des derniers trois mois – *avec mes détails RIB*
Une copie d’une lettre de refus S1 pour montrer que je ne relève pas du régime de sécurité sociale d'un autre pays
Pour prouver que j'ai les ressources suffisantes pour vivre en France, vous trouverez les documents suivants:
Ma pension privée, lettre d’avantages et relevés
Mon certificat et ma carte d’assurance santé privée pendant que j’attends l’assurance maladie de CPAM

Pour prouver que nous nous installons en France, vous trouverez les documents suivants :
La carte grise de ma voiture
Un extrait du compromis de vente pour la maison que nous achetons





Cordialement,


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## philthompson23

Thanks for sharing, really useful information. That really is a ton of documentation for the health card!
Is there anything in hindsight you wish you’d known before you moved which would of made things tolerably easier?


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## Le Portanel

philthompson23 said:


> Thanks for sharing, really useful information. That really is a ton of documentation for the health card!
> Is there anything in hindsight you wish you’d known before you moved which would of made things tolerably easier?


I was pretty organised and had done a lot of research (ex project manager you see!) so nothing major, but it would have been easier if I was more fluent / confident with my French. I can get by pretty well and it is improving, but the more you have the easier it will all be.

I am very glad I made room in the car for my wireless printer / scanner / photocopier - it was so useful getting the dossiers together!


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## philthompson23

How are you finding the area? Is it everything you expected? Good shout on the printer, scanner and photocopier. That's defo a P1 to have sorted. Think one would have a nervous breakdown trying to find places to print documents out.

So to be clear, you were granted the Carte Vitale because you have the B&B business or was that not even taken into consideratiob, it simple granted because you purchased a property in France and had proof of some income (private pension).

If one didn't have proof of income via private pension but had plans to setup a business, do you think that would suffice? Or do they need to see an income before they issue?


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## Bevdeforges

philthompson23 said:


> you were granted the Carte Vitale because you have the B&B business or was that not even taken into consideratiob, it simple granted because you purchased a property in France and had proof of some income (private pension).
> 
> If one didn't have proof of income via private pension but had plans to setup a business, do you think that would suffice? Or do they need to see an income before they issue?


If you come to France and register a proper business entity/company, part of that registration includes signing up for the whole megilla of "social insurances" - health care, retirement, etc. That's what gives Le Portanet access to the health services right off the bat. (Certainly once he has revenue to report from the business. Small businesses may wind up reporting their revenue - pre-expenses - every month from the start of the business.)

Purchasing a property has nothing to do with it. Now, those with a pension income gain the right to enroll with CPAM after the standard 3 months of valid residence here (also applies to French nationals returning to France after living abroad) - though the actual processing time for the application can take "a few" months, so hang onto your private cover until your CPAM kicks in.


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## philthompson23

Bevdeforges said:


> If you come to France and register a proper business entity/company, part of that registration includes signing up for the whole megilla of "social insurances" - health care, retirement, etc. That's what gives Le Portanet access to the health services right off the bat. (Certainly once he has revenue to report from the business. Small businesses may wind up reporting their revenue - pre-expenses - every month from the start of the business.)
> 
> Purchasing a property has nothing to do with it. Now, those with a pension income gain the right to enroll with CPAM after the standard 3 months of valid residence here (also applies to French nationals returning to France after living abroad) - though the actual processing time for the application can take "a few" months, so hang onto your private cover until your CPAM kicks in.


Thanks for this.

my next question then is why on buying Le Portanet which comes with social security, carte vitale etc would you need to use CPAM then?


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## Bevdeforges

philthompson23 said:


> Thanks for this.
> 
> my next question then is why on buying Le Portanet which comes with social security, carte vitale etc would you need to use CPAM then?


CPAM is the government agency that runs the health "insurance" system and the way that people refer to the health system here (among a host of other names). URSSAF is the umbrella agency that oversees the whole range of "social security services" - and makes sure you've paid for them.

Take a look at the Améli site (using a translation app if you need to). Even without a personal account on Améli there is LOTS of information about the healthcare system here that might be of interest to you. (Not sure how much of an English language section they have on Améli.)


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## Le Portanel

philthompson23 said:


> How are you finding the area? Is it everything you expected? Good shout on the printer, scanner and photocopier. That's defo a P1 to have sorted. Think one would have a nervous breakdown trying to find places to print documents out.
> 
> So to be clear, you were granted the Carte Vitale because you have the B&B business or was that not even taken into consideratiob, it simple granted because you purchased a property in France and had proof of some income (private pension).
> 
> If one didn't have proof of income via private pension but had plans to setup a business, do you think that would suffice? Or do they need to see an income before they issue?


Just to add my observations to the expertise already offered on this...I actually have nothing to do with Le Portanel Chambres d'Hôtes...well apart from living in the house and helping to run it all etc etc that is...my hubby is the registered owner as an auto entrepreneur. So he got his SIRET / SIREN business registration and his social security / Carte Vitale through that route. He declares the revenues and will be paying his taxes and social changes on that revenue all which goes into his bank account.

I applied to CPAM independently after living in France for 90 days and received my social security number and Carte Vitale - completely independently of buying a house (I was still in rental at the time) and opening a business, because I haven't done that. I declare my income (private pension) separately - did my first tax return last month - and will pay social charges on that.

The 'proof of income' is important when applying for the residents permit which allows you to stay here for more than 90 days - whole different topic which I don't know anything about beyond my situation...

I love the area and the village is great for trade - no regrets there. There are a LOT of ex-pats Britaniques and others here, but it's a lovely community still.


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## alan-in-mesicali

Hayley123 said:


> Hi everyone , a few questions regarding the practicalities of setting up a b&b post Brexit . We are looking to buy a house in France that is currently being run as a b&b (we would just be buying the house ,not the business as such,which suits us as there's a lot we'd like to change ).
> 
> 
> What would we need to be able to show/ prove to obtain a visa that would allow us to stay indefinitely? We both currently work in hospitality,but have not owned our own business before.
> From reading through other posts I can see that the general consensus is that you can't possibly make money from running a b&b in France- why is this thought to be so? Specifically ,is it the high taxation? Lack of customers? Etc etc?
> 
> Many thanks in advance


I would be happy to assist you with your business plan - FOR FREE -... I am a retired OLD food service/hospitality expert who can no longer pursue my dreams... but am willing to help you reach yours! <snip>
Questions: All of the B&B's I have used in the US have provided a true original gourmet "Breakfast"... are your an experienced cook/Chef? 
I don't know the area you wish to establish your B&B... what attractions does the area have for an "off season" visitor?
I have many more questions to ask you should you have in interest in a bit of assistance....
Alan B. Cranford


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## Bevdeforges

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