# Where to Settle



## Amtmann (May 9, 2012)

Hi Folks, 

I'm aiming this question mainly at UK expats who've been in Dubai a while.

Ultimately, most of us will want to leave Dubai. But after living here and getting accustomed to a higher standard of living and sunny climes, the thought of moving back to Ireland/UK might be unappealing (it's not very appealing for me at any rate).

So, to other expats who may be in a similar situation, what factors influence you in deciding where you ultimately want to settle, assuming you're relatively footloose right now?


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## Windsweptdragon (Aug 12, 2012)

It’s an excellent question, wish I had some sort of answer to it. :laugh:

I've not been in Dubai that long, just under three years. Staying here super long term doesn't really appeal, I certainly don't want to raise kids here. Going home to the UK doesn't have that much appeal either though. Streets of Sheffield don't now look the same. Haha. I may consider London one day, but other than that UK return is quite unlikely. 

I would much rather go further east I think. But not to Australia, holidayed there, no desire to live there at all.


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## Amtmann (May 9, 2012)

Yes, and it's important because the answer to the question "where to live?" sort of influences a lot of decisions that one probably should be making now:


Where to keep your savings
What currency to keep them in
Where to buy a home (for the long-term)

For me, I'd love to relocate to Germany. But I got married here (unexpectedly) and my wife isn't European and doesn't speak German. Yet she's an accountant and would want to work, so her lack of German might be a big problem. So this suggests a move to an English-speaking country:


Australia - too far away from everywhere else
New Zealand - as above
UK - bad weather
Ireland - bad weather / expensive
Canada - maybe, but doesn't really appeal due to cold winters
US - bit too conservative / odd for me and my wife


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## indoMLA (Feb 6, 2011)

Not from the UK but a lot of my colleagues do think about leaving Dubai for Asia like WindSwept mentioned. A good friend of mine (from Scotland) just settled in Singapore and I know of two others that have made the Philippines and Thailand home. 

The colleague that moved to Singapore liked the different seasons and the better schools for his kids while the other two who did retire liked that their money just went a lot farther even with the occasional splurge on luxuries.


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## IzzyBella (Mar 11, 2013)

Windsweptdragon said:


> It’s an excellent question, wish I had some sort of answer to it. :laugh:
> 
> I've not been in Dubai that long, just under three years. Staying here super long term doesn't really appeal, I certainly don't want to raise kids here. Going home to the UK doesn't have that much appeal either though. Streets of Sheffield don't now look the same. Haha. I may consider London one day, but other than that UK return is quite unlikely.
> 
> I would much rather go further east I think. But not to Australia, holidayed there, no desire to live there at all.


Woohoo! I lived in Sheffield for a good 5 years. 

As to where you want to settle, we'd like to move to US eventually (Canada is second on our list). We went on a road trip over Christmas and fell in love with California (not LA, more of the mountains, sea and culture around SF). In the meanwhile we might be moving to Europe this year. Maybe. We're in limbo! I'm keen on the idea of Prague for a year or two.

That being said about America, I would be happy to retire back in the UK. In a farm house in the north somewhere.


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## Amtmann (May 9, 2012)

IzzyBella said:


> Woohoo! I lived in Sheffield for a good 5 years.
> 
> As to where you want to settle, we'd like to move to US eventually (Canada is second on our list). We went on a road trip over Christmas and fell in love with California (not LA, more of the mountains, sea and culture around SF). In the meanwhile we might be moving to Europe this year. Maybe. We're in limbo! I'm keen on the idea of Prague for a year or two.
> 
> That being said about America, I would be happy to retire back in the UK. In a farm house in the north somewhere.


Hi Izzy, two questions for you:


Do you have - or do you plan to have - kids? (My wife and I don't yet, but we plan to start within the next 3 years; this will probably affect our choice)
Does that fact that you don't yet know where you'll end up affect where you save your money and the currency you save it in?


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## IzzyBella (Mar 11, 2013)

We don't have children and neither of us want children. (Though he's admitted that he's fickle and might change his mind whereas I'm set in stone on that decision!) We do have dog(s) (one's a foster but we intend to adopt him if we move this year as it would be heartbreaking if nobody else did) and we do factor them into the cost of moving and the quality of life they'll have too. I wouldn't want to move somewhere dog un-friendly again. Another reason why we loved California so much, it is ridiculously dog-friendly.

We currently save in an offshore account in dirhams. We've done this because we figure that a really large sum of money will transfer at a better rate into whichever currency we need later (be it pounds sterling, dollars or euros), rather than getting transaction fees and lower rates with our monthly set amount and end of month "sweep" into a currency we may or may not use later on. (Hope that made sense!)


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## Jumeirah Jim (Jan 24, 2011)

It's an interesting question. I think in an ideal world I would want a small base in the UK to visit during what the British call summer. Probably just a small flat which could easily be locked up and left for most of the year. The rest of the year would have to be somewhere warm, sunny and relaxed but not too remote so travelling would be possible. Maybe SE Asia but haven't got any fixed ideas about where. 

I have some property in the UK which I rent out but keep savings offshore in USD.


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## blazeaway (Sep 28, 2011)

Amtmann said:


> Yes, and it's important because the answer to the question "where to live?" sort of influences a lot of decisions that one probably should be making now: [*]Where to keep your savings [*]What currency to keep them in [*]Where to buy a home (for the long-term) For me, I'd love to relocate to Germany. But I got married here (unexpectedly) and my wife isn't European and doesn't speak German. Yet she's an accountant and would want to work, so her lack of German might be a big problem. So this suggests a move to an English-speaking country: [*]Australia - too far away from everywhere else [*]New Zealand - as above [*]UK - bad weather [*]Ireland - bad weather / expensive [*]Canada - maybe, but doesn't really appeal due to cold winters [*]US - bit too conservative / odd for me and my wife


Vancouver etc in Canada have decent weather in winter.

What about Spain or Portugal?


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## travertine (Aug 10, 2010)

If kids are still an option then there is a good chance you will be working for another 17 or more years unless you are more fortunate than most of us. Work may take you to many other countries in the meantime, tastes will change and the world will be very different by the time retirement arrives. Perhaps the bigger question is if you have kids where will be there base or reference point? In the meantime Malaysia might be worth considering. We were there before here. They actively encourage expats to settle through their MM2H (Malaysia My Second Home) program. Good climate if you like hot/humid, culturally diverse, interesting food, reasonable infrastructure, good health services, great people, etc. But for us we are looking at Vancouver Island.


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## Windsweptdragon (Aug 12, 2012)

IzzyBella said:


> Woohoo! I lived in Sheffield for a good 5 years.


I knew I liked you. Hehe. I'll always like home, but I can't imagine wanting to live there now...


IzzyBella said:


> As to where you want to settle, we'd like to move to US eventually (Canada is second on our list). We went on a road trip over Christmas and fell in love with California (not LA, more of the mountains, sea and culture around SF). In the meanwhile we might be moving to Europe this year. Maybe. We're in limbo! I'm keen on the idea of Prague for a year or two.
> 
> That being said about America, I would be happy to retire back in the UK. In a farm house in the north somewhere.


I love Canada and the US, I think Canada would be easier to live in though. San Francisco was really nice place if you're looking California way. Not too far from Yosemite park too which is one of most beautiful places I've ever been.


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## Malbec (Jan 2, 2014)

Good thread, although not an expat in Dubai, I am considering moving from Singapore to Dubai after numerous visits to this country and also for the experience, despite some people say "this is an awful place"  Others would move the other way around in "nano second". 

@Amtmann, I feel your pain and the thread you have started does not really concern UAE expats only, I think all expats ask themselves this kind of question sooner or later. I am also married and we plan to have family soon as well. There is no perfect place anywhere despite how clean, safe or well organised it would be it will always have its flaws.

I think you have to answer yourself why UK/Ireland is unappealing. At first you say "sunny climate" and then considering Germany... Have I missed some sudden climate change in the recent years in Europe? 

As for me the major factors are:

Low tax
Clean and safe
Fairly close to home country
English as an official language or widely spoken
Sunny with warm temperatures year round

I think everyone will have different factors: taxes, weather, non muslim, citizenship. For everyone quality of life refers to different values. If you are planning kids and have opportunity to live in Canada, perhaps it would be better choice than Germany. Weather wise the same or better (Vancouver) and your kids would get Canadian citizenship straight away (I would hurry up though as some travellers from African countries have been exploiting this heavily lately and they might change things soon). If I would have an opportunity, I would sacrifice myself for the 2-3 years just for my kids to get citizenship.

As for the savings keep the in the currency you have them most or you feel most comfortable with. Depending how significant they are, spread them across different jurisdictions. Singapore, Hong Kong, UAE are safe. Do not keep significant money in Europe, what happened in Cyprus is just the beginning. Even some banks in UK starts to act strange by imposing withdrawals limits (see HSBC UK)...

Despite what people write here (always take with a pinch of salt), UAE is one of the safest place these days to keep your savings. Be careful with sharia law, yes, but you can structure an offshore company in UAE to keep your savings there to avoid sharia inheritance issue. A simple notarised will translated to Arabic regarding to what happens to your movable assets is enough. Emirates Central Bank guarantee 100% bank deposits (I would stick to local banks for that matter). Please show me any other country that guarantee the same  Singapore doesn't have any kind of deposit insurance policy when it comes to currency other than SGD (for SGD it is €30,000 equivalent in SGD), while Hong Kong has equivalent to something like €50,000.

The same applies to UAE property should you decide to invest. Be careful and seek legal advise. Incorporation of offshore JAFZA company might not be enough to avoid sharia inheritance issues due to the fact that property is considered as immovable asset. The way around is to incorporate a company outside of UAE (e.g. BVI) that will own JAFZA.

You might want consider Singapore for the experience. There is lack of sun however (or should I say days full of sun are rare), rains a lot, cloudy skies, hot, humid and the temperature vary maximum 2-3 degrees across the year. I am not really sure whether @indoMLA colleague moved to Singapore, because there are no different seasons here. Maybe he moved to HK? Anyway, after Dubai you will feel in Singapore like you would have switched from super exclusive well equipped Lexus LX to well equipped Mini Morris. It will be tight, packed, fast, mall life experience. But some people like and prefer it, don't mind the stressed society. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of advantages: you can actually interact with locals (as there are still more than 50% Singaporeans living there vs 15% in UAE), it is walkable (unlike Dubai), clean and sterile, low taxes, consistent weather (no summer oven but no winters either), english (or singlish) is spoken everywhere, you can understand what taxi driver is saying (unlike in Dubai where it is hit and miss and often the level of conversation is on kindergarten level), you can be within 2 hours in Thailand, Indonesia etc.

Also keep in mind that certain factors change depending on the financial offer. Despite being far, I think Australia is a great choice for someone that can get a really well paid job. It is super expensive though. Dubai is much cheaper than Singapore, while Singapore is cheaper than Sydney. If you are self employed, Australia is no go 

@Windsweptdragon, why you would not like to raise your kids in UAE?


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## Amtmann (May 9, 2012)

Great replies so far.



Malbec said:


> @Amtmann, I feel your pain and the thread you have started does not really concern UAE expats only, I think all expats ask themselves this kind of question sooner or later. I am also married and we plan to have family soon as well. There is no perfect place anywhere despite how clean, safe or well organised it would be it will always have its flaws.
> 
> I think you have to answer yourself why UK/Ireland is unappealing. At first you say "sunny climate" and then considering Germany... Have I missed some sudden climate change in the recent years in Europe?


Hehe, no, you haven't. It's true on reflection that the German climate leaves a lot to be desired. But at least they have seasons in Germany: colourful autumns, nice springs, and the potential for snowy winters. I'll take that over Irish dreariness any time! I also find the civic discipline, transport, supports and 'outdoorsiness' of Germany very appealing. And, my employer is headquartered in Heidelberg, which is a particularly lovely area. So for me, Germany is an option, and if I were single, I'd move there after a few years. But my wife is Filipino, and likes to work. She's an accountant and her lack of German would probably be a real problem...which has got me to thinking of the other places where we could live. 



> As for me the major factors are:
> 
> Low tax
> Clean and safe
> ...


These are mostly the same preferences that I have, too.



> I think everyone will have different factors: taxes, weather, non muslim, citizenship. For everyone quality of life refers to different values. If you are planning kids and have opportunity to live in Canada, perhaps it would be better choice than Germany. Weather wise the same or better (Vancouver) and your kids would get Canadian citizenship straight away (I would hurry up though as some travellers from African countries have been exploiting this heavily lately and they might change things soon). If I would have an opportunity, I would sacrifice myself for the 2-3 years just for my kids to get citizenship.


Canada is an option all right, especially as it's a hotspot for my profession. The other hotspots in North America are Texas, Seattle, and San Francisco. I hadn't considered citizenship before. I have EU citizenship, which I consider to be pretty much the best you can have. My child would also get this by default. But my wife would only get it if we resided in Ireland for several years. 

I would prioritize money over Canadian citizenship though, for the simple reason that both my wife and I spent almost all of our twenties in education, and really only started our careers when we turned 30. I was extremely lucky to get a job in Dubai within 14 months of starting in my profession. Right now I take home 230% more than people of a similar level to me in Ireland, and I'm about to be promoted. So I'm saving, saving, saving right now, and am not going to stop any time soon! I've a lot of time to make up for  



> As for the savings keep the in the currency you have them most or you feel most comfortable with. Depending how significant they are, spread them across different jurisdictions. Singapore, Hong Kong, UAE are safe. Do not keep significant money in Europe, what happened in Cyprus is just the beginning. Even some banks in UK starts to act strange by imposing withdrawals limits (see HSBC UK)...


I think you might be right about savings in Europe. I have been considering opening up an offshore account on the Isle of Man with Lloyds. I am really wondering whether to go for euros or dollars. 



> You might want consider Singapore for the experience. There is lack of sun however (or should I say days full of sun are rare), rains a lot, cloudy skies, hot, humid and the temperature vary maximum 2-3 degrees across the year. I am not really sure whether @indoMLA colleague moved to Singapore, because there are no different seasons here. Maybe he moved to HK? Anyway, after Dubai you will feel in Singapore like you would have switched from super exclusive well equipped Lexus LX to well equipped Mini Morris. It will be tight, packed, fast, mall life experience. But some people like and prefer it, don't mind the stressed society. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of advantages: you can actually interact with locals (as there are still more than 50% Singaporeans living there vs 15% in UAE), it is walkable (unlike Dubai), clean and sterile, low taxes, consistent weather (no summer oven but no winters either), english (or singlish) is spoken everywhere, you can understand what taxi driver is saying (unlike in Dubai where it is hit and miss and often the level of conversation is on kindergarten level), you can be within 2 hours in Thailand, Indonesia etc.


I hadn't really considered Singapore, as it isn't typically on the radar for those in my profession. But 'll certainly do a bit of investigating. Thanks!

There really is no reason for me to agonizing over the question "where next". I've a good job that's secure for the next four years at least, and my wife and I are happy here. But we feel we should be prepared for the next chapter, or at least start thinking about it. It's a hard thing to get a fix on. It seems the only way is down after the UAE. With all these allowances and the tax-free environment, it's hard to imagine us ever having as much disposable income and savings potential again.


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## Windsweptdragon (Aug 12, 2012)

Malbec said:


> @Windsweptdragon, why you would not like to raise your kids in UAE?


There are quite a few reasons, some of which aren’t the ‘fault’ of Dubai, some of which are, but I do not believe it is a good place to raise children overall. In no particular order my main issues are:

1.)	I don’t believe a school system based on making a profit is beneficial for education.
2.)	My standard working week is 45 hours but I can do many more and I am expected to travel frequently for project work. I know plenty of people that have left the UAE as they could not make time for a proper family life, I don’t want that to happen. 
3.)	I don’t want to raise children in an air conditioned environment for half the year, I’m fairly ‘oldschool’, children should be out playing and not at risk of skin cancer from doing so. 
4.)	Pollution (mainly dust, but other pollutants in the air too) seems to be high. Links into the above. 
5.)	Lack of nature, from grassy areas, to a lack of trees, to not having cows and sheep in fields when you go for walks. That is a big thing for me, I grew up with Peak District (big national park in England) right on my doorstep. 
6.)	Roads are so dangerous here, with potential problems of finding a school near to home they can be on the road for an hour at the busiest times. While crashing is a low risk, it is still a risk increased by being here. 
7.)	I’ve met a lot of people born and raised in Dubai (non Emirati) and don’t have nice things to say about some of them. They have no real world grounding, I think that could come from the sparkle sparkle nature of Dubai. 
8.)	The come and go nature of Dubai makes me wonder how long kids are able to stay friends, there are probably very few cases of kids going through all of school together. 
9.)	No matter how much you raise your children to accept everyone as an equal, Dubai society reinforces that racism is ok. While exposure to such a multi-cultural environment could be brilliant for bringing up a child, they pick up on stuff that sometimes we don’t see (or sadly ignore). Colleagues children have shocked me with what they do see, and how the parents need to stamp out that way of thinking. 

There are of course plenty of positives to staying here, but I feel the negatives outweigh those at the moment. As I’m not actually married yet and there are no buns in any ovens so, everything is open to change.


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## Amtmann (May 9, 2012)

Windsweptdragon said:


> There are quite a few reasons, some of which aren’t the ‘fault’ of Dubai, some of which are, but I do not believe it is a good place to raise children overall. In no particular order my main issues are:
> ...


Yep, for me the inhibitors are: 

The lack of nature / greenery
Entrenched inequality
Laziness (it's easy to become super lazy when you live here. There's no need to fill one's own car with petrol, pour one's own drinks, and nip out to the shop to get some milk and bread.) I wouldn't want a child to grow up thinking that this is the norm.
Religiosity - I think the society is very illiberal in many ways and I don't want my child to be indoctrinated on the one hand, or forced to keep quiet that mom and dad are non-believers on the other.
Attitude to money: let's face it, money is far more plentiful here for most expats than it would be at home. I want my kids to learn the value of money and to get a part time job at some point so they can see what it's like to be on the other side of the counter. I don't think these lessons would be easily imparted in Dubai. 
I don't think the lack of long-term friends due to the transient nature of Dubai is necessarily a big issue, but that's just my opinion.


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## IzzyBella (Mar 11, 2013)

From one of Dubai's Blogs: Mrs Dubai



> Before I had children, I knew a mum who was worried her only child was turning into an expat brat.
> 
> “We once had to fly Economy Class,” she told me, “and my son had a tantrum because he’d never had to ‘turn right’ before. He hadn’t even realised there was a cabin behind Business Class.”


Makes me laugh every time.

We also experienced (on a fully booked return flight to Dubai) "yes, *ALL* the way to the back, sweetheart".


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## Windsweptdragon (Aug 12, 2012)

Amtmann said:


> I don't think the lack of long-term friends due to the transient nature of Dubai is necessarily a big issue, but that's just my opinion.


I'm not sure it would be or not either. I do remember being gutted when my best friend moved away to another place when I was around 7 though, not sure how I'd feel about children potentially having that EVERY year. As I said though, total conjecture at moment as that decision is at least 5 years away and I could leave tomorrow. Haha.


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## Jumeirah Jim (Jan 24, 2011)

"There really is no reason for me to agonizing over the question "where next". I've a good job that's secure for the next four years at least, and my wife and I are happy here. But we feel we should be prepared for the next chapter, or at least start thinking about it. It's a hard thing to get a fix on. It seems the only way is down after the UAE. With all these allowances and the tax-free environment, it's hard to imagine us ever having as much disposable income and savings potential again."



This rings very true and sums up what most western expats I know here feel. I'm sure the answer is things will change in time. Better countries to live will emerge depending on what your priorities are. In the meantime the UAE is a darn good place to live imo


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## Malbec (Jan 2, 2014)

I think it is a great place to raise kids if you can afford it. Beaches, deserts, parks, water-parks, plenty of activities for kids to enrol them to, safe and multi-diversed society. Now think back about back home, what can you offer down there? Indoor swimming pool? A nice walk among sheep and cows, seriously?  AFAIK there is a lengthy holiday period in UAE (3 months?) during the worst period - summer, so that is a perfect time to show the kid how the things are back home and show him a real cow or sheep, so that he will know were his father grew up 

The thing is that when we grew up things were different, completely different. No one had cell phones, but yet everyone still managed to meet up and showed up on time. There were values to respect women and women did respect themselves. Drugs were not as easily accessible as they are today. Social networks were non existing due to lack of internet access, not to mention playing games over the internet with friends. We were simply spending our times outside with others, because there were no other things to do. Not everyone had a TV or computer, so kids were gathering to enjoy their time together.

I understand the concerns about people who were born and grown in Dubai to lack their personality. I met some people who spent there whole life, are not Emiratis, don't know their own country native language, neither do they speak Arabic fluently... I believe this is the part where patriotic values come to play to not let your kids forget who they are, what is their culture and mother language (but language obviously should not be a problem to english speaking families). I believe this is an issue regardless where your kids will grow up unless it is back home...

Also thing to remember, kids have great adaptability skills, greater than long term adult expats. They have clean card, so they call home place where they live. I would prefer my kids to have new friends every year in order to adapt to the fast changing world, instead of having one back home just to find out 15 years later that his best friend became an expat


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## Canuck_Sens (Nov 16, 2010)

Amtmann,

First and foremost, what is more important to you and your wife ? What kind of values do you cherish most ? Do you put quality over standard ?

How do you reconcile all this ?
There are no perfect places but plenty of second to none.

You gotta be honest while going through this exercise, though. Your dilemma remembers me of a fella who very recently resigned. 

The reason being was that it was time for him and his family to move back to Canada and raise their children there. He planned and did it. Neither him nor his wife hesitated. Surely he went through that planning process I am telling you, but if you do not 'prioritize your needs given your current stage in life and associated circumstances you will go nowhere.

If climate is not a decisive criterion, don't use it. I also thought Canada was too cold, but hey....you will get used to it. For Canucks, real winter is in January and February.


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