# I need experienced advice



## Le Saint (Dec 24, 2014)

Hi All
Having sat on the side lines looking in for quite a while I have decided to take the plunge and ask for advice from the people who have the experience to give it.
Our intention after many years visiting the area is to buy a project in central Portugal and on completion, a life of semi retirement.
We have viewed enough properties now to know what we like and we think we have found one that we both agree on (thank the Lord )
The question I have is, the property is single story with a barn/ storage building attached, because it is attached will it be on the property foot print or will it be classed as an agricultural building and the problems this will bring.
I look forward to hearing your advice and answering the first of my many queries.


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

I'd say you need to go to the relevant camara and ask them. 

In our case, we bought a house with barn attached and it was all registered as urban etc so we were able to make both habitation without any problems.


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## BodgieMcBodge (Mar 8, 2013)

You do understand, because you have looked at the topic. that far more information is needed to give an opinion. BUT as the system here starts with a promissory contract your legal advisor will, unless he/she is s**t, have included a clause covering the "barn" and it's status which the vendor also has to sign.


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## robc (Jul 17, 2008)

Hi and welcome to the Forum

Good Luck with the project, people have and will continue to make some really beautiful residences from these type of projects so do not be put off.
You will need to be motivated as the bureaucracy here can seem to be insurmountable but with determination you will win through.

But before you start I would confirm the following

1. What exactly are you buying, is it rural, urban or biologique land, or a mixture of a number.
Check the pdf records at the Camara, they will show you 3 important things, the status of the land and the registered footprint, the status of the buildings, whether habitable or agricultural, and the permitted development %´s.

2. The age of any buildings, pre and post 1952 are treated differently so it pays to know what you have got.

Once you have this information then you need to talk with a good Architect and/or Lawyer to work out exactly what you can and cannot do.

specific advice is, as other posters have said, difficult to give without all the data and FWIW I would always cross reference any verbal statements.

One final thing, always get it written down and never ever act on a verbal statement. 

If you need more post up

Rob


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## Le Saint (Dec 24, 2014)

Excellent advice guys and thanks for the welcome.
As I stated in my debut post, it is our intention to buy a project, we have time on our side to take in all the sound advice this forum has to offer.
We will go to the camara and find out the required info, what's the time scale for this, can it be done with a visit in a day and am I allowed to make these enquiries ?
Thanks again


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## travelling-man (Jun 17, 2011)

You obviously need to settle on a property before you can ask what you can and can't do with it but from my experience, the camara staff are always very willing to talk to you about what you can and can't do (yes, you are allowed to ask) but I'd recommend that you get them to put the important do's and don't in writing for future reference. 

It sometimes takes more than one visit but with luck can usually be done in a day. 

You should also be warned that some camaras have some bizarre rules so be careful to ask a lot of questions....... we looked at one place that I especially loved and two of the boundaries were a very good trout river. The place had several ruins on it and all were close (40 metres at the most) to the river........ we were told we could indeed renovate any of the buildings for habitation but would not be allowed to use any cement in the buillding because of possible pollution........ quite how you rebuild a house without using any cement, I have no idea! LOL


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## Le Saint (Dec 24, 2014)

Great stuff, we think we have found the place and thank goodness there doesn't seem to be anything as complicated as dry stone walls.
There is only one domestic building which has the barn/ store rooms attached all is contained in a walled boundary as far as we know, that's before taking advice and going to the camara.


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## siobhanwf (Mar 20, 2009)

good luck LeSaint. As TN says make sure that any important answers from the camara are put down on paper  It is amazing how much the rules can vary from camara to camara (or inded from one peson in a camara to another!!)


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## Le Saint (Dec 24, 2014)

Thanks Siobhanwf
The advice about getting things down on paper from the camara seems to be on a loop from you guys, obviously there have been a lot of negative experiences, warning logged.
Thanks


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## robc (Jul 17, 2008)

Le Saint said:


> Thanks Siobhanwf
> The advice about getting things down on paper from the camara seems to be on a loop from you guys, obviously there have been a lot of negative experiences, warning logged.
> Thanks


It is to an extent common sense. You must protect yourself and your €´s

You will undoubtedly experience the "portuguese shuffle", normally employed by a Tradesman or men when things go wrong.
It involves looking down at the feet and shuffling about until someone else stands up and takes responsibility for the issue.
The good news is that you can employ it on them, especially effective when negotiating a price or being asked to pay for incomplete work !!!

Even when confronted by their own piece of paper some will still try and wriggle out. 
It may be sunny and warm here, but there are still plenty of sharks about !!

if you need more post away.

Rob


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## Le Saint (Dec 24, 2014)

Thanks Rob for the info, as I said earlier I have time on my side, by the time we part with our money I hope that we are primed with the do's and don'ts, the questions to ask and who to ask them of, is this common sense.
And don't know a better place to start than this forum.
You mentioned tradesmen, Am I correct in saying that if competent I could do all the work myself other than the certificated trades ( electrics, plumbing ) as I have been in the building industry the majority of my working life 40 years.
Please let me know guys
Thanks


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## robc (Jul 17, 2008)

There are certain specific things that you will need a Qualified Tradesman for, such as Gas installation, but other things should be OK.
A big factor will be the scale of the work you undertake and the type of property, windmills for instance are I am told a nightmare and not for the DIY´er

Again a competent Architect should be able to help you out on that area

Rob


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## Le Saint (Dec 24, 2014)

If the renovation is straight forward enough and you have the ideas and experience to bring it together, is a architect absolutely necessary ?
What are the costs of employing an architect.


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## robc (Jul 17, 2008)

Le Saint said:


> If the renovation is straight forward enough and you have the ideas and experience to bring it together, is a architect absolutely necessary ?
> What are the costs of employing an architect.


Theoretically No you should be able to do some of these renovations without an Architect.
Is it sensible..............In my opinion No it is not.

Architects are not like in the UK. They are way way cheaper.

My 2 projects here, excluding the combination of the land which was handled by our Solicitor, came to a total of 4800€, for that I got 2 new build projects, 14 speciality projects (similar to Building Regs) together with on-site visits, photographic evidence and signature of the Livre De Obras.
The paperwork submission costs were excluded.

HTH

Rob


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