# What don't you like about Greece



## Haraki

As an expats I am sure if you are the same as me, once the exitment of moving to Greece has passed and you try and intrigate yourself into the local Greek community, some things just start to anoy you, I laugh at them now but at the time, I just could not get my head round the Greek way of thinking. 
I really would like to share these moment with you, and now be able to laugh together.

Just for for example: my first experience of aquiring a greek tradesman to do some work on the apartment, great phone call, the work not a problem will be there the next morning, well three bloody mornings later he showed up as if this is when he said he would arrive, I can laugh at it now


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## tpebop

Greeks dont care about the countryside. If they have something to get rid of, they just dump it by the roadside. All manner of things from household rubbish to white goods & vehicles


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## hecate

At the moment I'm heartily sick of my friends - Greeks - blaming everyone else for the economic mess.


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## Haraki

This is so true, even in the most picturesque areas they have like dumping grounds, so sad.
I have spoken to my Greek friends about this and keeping the countryside clean is a consept lost on them.
What gets me is that all Greeks seem to be very proud of there country and then they fly tip!!!


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## Haraki

*In Denial*



hecate said:


> At the moment I'm heartily sick of my friends - Greeks - blaming everyone else for the economic mess.


Yes, so so true, how can it be anybody elses fault for the expenditure of Greece other than the Greeks!!!! Seem to me that they are very quick at pointing out other countrys faults and not recognising there own.
But now there is no getting away from it, fact... Greeks can spend money good style and have yet got to understand the consept of saving and planning for the future. 

How can blaming everybody else reduce your responsability??????


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## hecate

The countryside sure is messy with all that garbage tossed wherever. 'Course I think that because I'm from a tidy land with plenty of ways to get rid of my trash, broken stuff, dead cars, house-building rubble. 

But the toilet paper/plastic bottles/used condoms tourist trash ain't pretty either :eyebrows:


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## expat914

I hate when I see people throwing garbage out the car window. 

My other pet peeves are the strikes. OMG already! Stop crying and start thinking about the changes that need to be made to get the country out of an economic crisis.


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## KathyK

The amount of rubbish left laying around - too lazy to get out of the car some of them! and the complete and utter greed when anything to do with land/houses rears its head.


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## wka

I think the main thing I don't like is some bureaucratic hassles. Yesterday it took my husband SIX HOURS to do his απογραφή (which is supposed to take 5 minutes) because the system was so poorly designed / overloaded. My one-year residence permit wasn't issued until 12 days before it expired. My husband is a teacher and it's July 18 and we still don't know what part of Greece (not even which prefecture) we'll be living in come September. Getting my health insurance cost us so much money because we had to travel from our island to two different islands plus the mainland to get all the stamps and signatures necessary. They are so unclear about requirements that it doing immigration / taxes / property issues without a lawyer or an accountant is intimidating. 

I think if you take away the bureaucracy, I couldn't really complain about anything else.


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## KathyK

Yes, that is true. When we went to tax our car at the end of December, there were 3 people working, but only 1 actually doing the car side - the other two just sat watching as the queue got longer and longer Also, we are trying to register to vote - tomorrow will be our 3rd attempt. Once again, 3 people work in the office, but only the woman deals with the registration. If she is not in (and she doesn't work a full week) you just keep going back and going back and going back. Makes you wonder what the other two do. In UK you multi-task. In Greece this is unheard of. Most places, (car tax, insurance, IKA etc etc) you are guaranteed at least three visits before things are finally done!!!


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## wka

Yes and multiply that by 10 when you live on a small island!! We don't have an IKA office or a tax office or anything of that sort on the island so a lot of things have to be done off-island, and that involves an overnight stay on another island (which is not cheap). The expense is excessive I think, because so many things that we have to travel to handle could be done so easily online if only that option were available. There seems to be an unnatural obsession with stamps, signatures, and pieces of paper. If they would let us do things online, they could save money, we could save money, and maybe we wouldn't have so many mistakes to fix. My husband received a piece of paper from the government telling him he had married himself, when we were trying to get my papers in order for my health insurance. It took them days to fix. Nothing is ever simple or easy or doable in a single trip.


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## KathyK

Too too true. Your post did make me laugh (sorry but I have just put on a website you do need a sense of humour to live in Greece!) but I agree entirely with what you say. We live on a relatively large, but sparsely populated island and everything you do you have to try 2 or 3 times before anything is finished or carried out correctly. At least we rarely have to go to Rodos or Athens but we certainly can see part of the reason that the country is in such a financial mess. Keep smiling!!!!!


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## hecate

wka said:


> My husband is a teacher and it's July 18 and we still don't know what part of Greece (not even which prefecture) we'll be living in come September.


A teacher? It could be worse [and this isn't meant to upset you, so don't read it if it will ]
Friend's wife had 13-week old baby when she received her posting notice in AUGUST (to one of the minor islands - no airport or direct ferries). She, her husband, their well-connected _koumbara_, and everyone else they could enlist tried mightily to defer (new baby, right?), or post close to home. Nothing worked, and it was take the job or move to the bottom of the very long, loooong list. They needed the money: _Yiayia _moved in, she went.

So hang in there. It's not fair, but maybe you'll be sent someplace nifty. Life's supposed to be an adventure, right?!! Cheers, Hecate


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## wka

Hecate, I am not surprised but I can't help shake my head at that. Last fall for us was like this: my husband found out which island (he knew "Cyclades" but no more than that earlier) TWO DAYS before he had to be there. It was in September. If I recall it was like September 8 he found out which island and they said "be there by Sept 10" and he had to go from Alexandroupoli (which is where his parents live) to our tiny island (300 residents) in the space of 2 days. At the time it was actually an issue as to whether or not there would actually be space on the ferry. The first few days of teaching = staying in a rented room before finding an apartment. 

12,000 teachers have already applied for retirement. They have announced they'll be hiring 10,000 fewer than usual. That's 22,000 expected openings with no announced way to deal with them. We are friends with lots of teachers (that's pretty much our entire social circle) and about 2/3 of them are now unemployed (the ones who are not tenured), and ALL of them are talking about the disaster that awaits the school system in September. 

As far as us finding out where we're going to be, we are just hoping to find out what prefecture (Cyclades again? Somewhere else?) soon (maybe this week????). If it is the Cyclades (for example) we'll find out which island probably a couple days before we have to move there. We'll just have everything packed and ready to go into the car and wait for the announcement, not sure yet how we'll be told.

Two years ago he got his assignment (to Zakynthos) via text message. 

Oh and I just have to add: I am _so grateful_ that my husband was given a permanent position (diorismos) last year. His teaching field only has the option to take the national employment exam (ASEP) once every decade because it's not a very big field, and luckily there was an ASEP exam in 2008, and he was one of the ones selected for the tenure-track positions. That doesn't give us any stability but it gives us_ job security_ which right now is a godsend. We may be two people trying to survive on €1000/month, but at least we're not two people trying to survive on one person's unemployment (what is that, €350/month??). I can't wait until my right to work comes through (hopefully within the next 12 months) and then I can start desperately searching for a job along with everyone else. Not knowing where we're going to be living makes it hard for me to look for a job, also.

I think I will add to the "what don't you like about Greece?" list the way that there doesn't seem to be much financial remuneration for people who do deserve it, or ability to get rid of people who don't (firing people is almost impossible in the school system once you are tenured). My husband's salary doesn't reflect the fact that he has advanced degrees, runs four extracurricular activities for students and their families, and is fantastic at what he does - no one cares. Having a PhD literally equates to having like two extra years of teaching experience. If they don't value these things, eventually people will stop going for higher education when they see that they will just be losing years of experience (that could lead to higher pay). End result: less well educated faculty.


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## hecate

Yep, the new Mom had same thing. Seems par for the course. Someone, somewhere sees this as logical, I suppose[???] Pub education system here a disaster and disgrace as it is, hard to imagine it getting worse.

Don't understand - retirement age has been raised for pub. sector: why so many teachers retiring? H

"12,000 teachers have already applied for retirement. They have announced they'll be hiring 10,000 fewer than usual. That's 22,000 expected openings with no announced way to deal with them. We are friends with lots of teachers (that's pretty much our entire social circle) and about 2/3 of them are now unemployed (the ones who are not tenured), and ALL of them are talking about the disaster that awaits the school system in September".


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## wka

I think they're retiring NOW because the new rules don't go into effect immediately. They're trying to get out in front of the new age restrictions. Both my husband's parents are teachers and they are both thinking about retiring early (this year) but they don't have to decide until August 31. (Which is also stupid - it means the Ministry won't know how many openings they have until a week before school opens!) They want to retire now because even though they will get less money per month, if they wait to retire, they'll be forced to work at certain number of years more before they can, and at least my father in law has pretty serious health problems (had a severe heart attack a few years ago) and wouldn't necessarily benefit by working longer.


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## hecate

*No comment.*

from today's paper:

*State doctors to walk off the job for five days as of today*
State hospital doctors are due to begin a five-day strike as of today to protest government plans to overhaul the national health service with a slew of reforms, including the operation of daily afternoon surgeries at state hospitals. The doctors are also objecting to a proposed system according to which patients will pay for medical services at hospitals and have expenses reimbursed by their insurance funds.


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## wka

I'm insured through the public health system (one of the "perks" of being the wife of a public servant - sarcasm...). Blech.

I am annoyed by the strikes as well. Everyone said we'd get a break over the summer. I'm still waiting for the break. At least on our island there is no hospital and only one doctor (who is about 27 years old) so most likely there will be no changes in our level of care. (more sarcasm...)


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## hecate

stay well...at least for 5 days.

Ah-so, retire while you still can. What a bloody mess.


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## zabestof

First I'm glad I've found this forum and especially this thread to unload my frustrations .

So, let's begin with the things I don't like in "Ellada". I moved here because my girlfriend's mother lives and works here for about 7 years and I also thought it was a possibility of escaping from my country which is a mess and now I live in Tavros, Athens.

Back on track:

1. The first thing that i don't like (I hate it) here is the traffic. It is a totally chaos and the laws and rules are useless. After 1 month here I was seriously thinking to make an appointment to a shrink before I strangle someone. Does anyone knows what the traffic red-light means? (sarcasm)

2. The people are rude and don't care about anything (I don't say everybody but most of them that I've met). They throw things and garbage everywhere and even in a shop if they pass by and drop a cloth they don't bother and even step on it and go by (i saw this a hundred times). They also blame anyone else but themselves for their country's problems and they think they don't have any responsibilities at all. Most of them do things without caring about anyone else but themselves (parking, noise, etc).

3. The noise. They ride motorcycles at 3-4 am like they do it in the morning or afternoon. I think it comes to common sense to think that people are sleeping at night and you shouldn't ride your bike at those hours.

4. My fellow Romanians. I thought I could get rid of the thieves and beggars at least here, but no I didn't. Most of my compatriots here are not working people but gypsies and other "pie's cream" of the society. I'm not proud of this and it hurts but this is the "ugly truth".

5. Strikes. Oh, strikes. Whenever they don't agree with something they make απεργίες. Most of the strikes are for no real reason. Most of the people want to work in the public sector because they know it's easy work and they cannot be fired. I was at the police to make my work permit. 1 women was working 3 were watching. And when they cut their salaries they make απεργίες. Cool, huh?

6. I think I got more bot I don't remember all of them now 

Other than that I  my adoption country. 

Cheers!


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## wka

Zabestof - it sounds to me like you are annoyed with ATHENS, not Greece!! None of those things on your list happen in the smaller communities away from the large cities. None of them exist on our island, for example. Maybe you need a change of scene ;-)

Well we found out yesterday that we will be living in the Cyclades prefecture again for another year. So that is a little bit of information and at least it is narrowed down to that. We will not find out which island until probably a day or two before classes start. 

I have to say, though, after b***ing about the bureaucracy, that the PEOPLE who work in the government offices are always really nice and try to be helpful, so far at least. I got my AFM a few weeks ago and the people at the tax office were very friendly and helpful (of course you could say "Of course they are - a new taxpayer!! Why wouldn't they be??") and you'd be right. But I also picked up my residence permit a few weeks ago and the Ministry of the Interior was very nice to me and even apologized for the delay and acknowledged that it was their fault. Overall I think the problem is systemic but not the personnel. Low-level Greek state employees are the scapegoat for larger, institutional problems. The ones I know personally work very hard, one I know on our island stays at work until 11pm every night (unpaid overtime) just to keep up with all the paperwork.


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## zabestof

wka said:


> Zabestof - it sounds to me like you are annoyed with ATHENS, not Greece!! None of those things on your list happen in the smaller communities away from the large cities. None of them exist on our island, for example. Maybe you need a change of scene ;-)


I guess you're right. Anyway I don't think everyone is the same, but the most people that I`ve met they were .


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## KathyK

Some of Zabestof's remarks do pertain to places other than Athens. We live on a relatively large, but lowly populated island - yes, you do go into some Government offices where 2 people are doing nothing, while 1 is working: car tax was a good example, a queue of 16 people last December, 1 man doing the work and 2 just sitting!!! And yes, rubbish, far too much of it left around, so many just slow down, wind down the car window and it lands where it lands. And there it is left.


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## expat914

Zabestof-- I totally understand!!!!!


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## astro-kopp

I work at a cheese store, have been working there since nearly the day I arrived here. And the first thing to struck me as a wee bit extra-ordinarily odd was the way all and sundry champ their mouths while eating. Sometimes when a costumer inquires about a certain type of cheese and if a long protracted rabbit and pork don't pander to inquisitiveness of a given punter I simply slice a little chunk of the prospective cheese for their degustation, but every time I do so I have to put up with these loud chompings. What kind of code of ethics is this? How can this be so widespread? Obviously, I thought that this particular type of foible is considered as unsavoury, something that's not pleasant to regard or hearken no matter which country you reside in  
But there you go, go into any café (you should consider yourself lucky if you have an iPod with you in that case you can simply plug your ears and get along with your nosh) 

I went through 7 rings of hell when I applied for a food hygiene certificate. No one at the hospital was able to pinpoint with the slightest precision where I could make an appointment or lodge a request. The thing I got was a series of referring me to a doctor which ,respectively, referred me to another and another and so on until I gave in and left the hospital vanquished and in high dudgeon. It's not only me as an expat that whinges about this, Greeks themselves are appalled. Civil Services in this country are in execrable condition. 

And there's this moment of their being overly impolitic towards time. They don't care in the least if someone they are holding up are short of time or simply want to get along with their businesses. I think I'll move to Sweden, the country that's obverse when it comes to contrasting these two.


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## zabestof

astro-kopp said:


> I think I'll move to Sweden, the country that's obverse when it comes to contrasting these two.


Oh, man! What are you waiting for? I lived for a little time in Sweden and all I can say is that it does not compare to any of the places I`ve been.

@amis914: I`m sorry but I cannot PM you because I don't have this feature activated. You can contact me by email at cristian at skatdesign dot com (no links either )


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## hecate

Strikes!


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## The Grocer

hecate said:


> Strikes!


100% with you on that one........the sooner the government sort out the unions the better!


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## Haraki

*Fuel Crisis*

One of my friends on facebook wrote:

"the meeting with the government has ended in a deadlock. This is ridiculous. This is catastrophic for the Islands. Hopefully someone will have the balls to get the Army to step in, talk about bite the hands that feed them. And to the garage owner in Rhodes town (the only 1 with fuel left) shame on you charging 5euros a litre...I hope you go Bankrupt!"

I believe the army has stepped in now, but OMG, a country with so many island dependant on tourism, in the middle of the season that is only 6 months long and when the country is in economic crisis, that requires for everybody to work together to enable Greece to recover from its financial circumstances.

To people that have written earlier on this thread about how they do not like the Greek selfish attitude when it comes to money etc. Havent they just proven you soo right, I wish I could finish with a humourous line but there isnt one here.....


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## KathyK

You are 100% correct - as I think I have stated, tourists can go almost anywhere in the World now - it is only the Grecophiles that can be depended upon to come back to Greece. Anyone who wants a rest, sun, sand and sea could well avoid Greece like the plague if their holidays have been spoilt in any way (e.g. flights, no petrol, banks on strike doctors on strike and so on). I think most Greeks (certainly not all of them, some are very astute) have tunnel vision and are incapable of working out "well if I do this it will affect that" etc


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## Haraki

KathyK said:


> You are 100% correct - as I think I have stated, tourists can go almost anywhere in the World now - it is only the Grecophiles that can be depended upon to come back to Greece. Anyone who wants a rest, sun, sand and sea could well avoid Greece like the plague if their holidays have been spoilt in any way (e.g. flights, no petrol, banks on strike doctors on strike and so on). I think most Greeks (certainly not all of them, some are very astute) have tunnel vision and are incapable of working out "well if I do this it will affect that" etc


KathyK, yes you are right it how they think "well if I do this it will affect that" do they read the news papers? this article Greece's national strike threatens chaos for British tourists | World news | The Guardian will only have one affect on the 3,000,000 million brits that go to Greece every year. They will be going somewhere else! Then there will be no work for there trucks!!!


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## hecate

Because anything Junta-like is anathema, they won't call in the army. Sigh. Instead they're trying to call up the truck drivers INTO the army, so they can exert some control over - or punish - them, except they haven't a workable mechanism in place to carry this through. Sigh.

It's hurting _everyone_, and they haven't a clue what do except blather on TV and try to 'negotiate'. Saddest of all is that the drivers have a legitimate beef, and _no other way _to get their issues dealt with. 

Self-defeating idiocy!


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## wka

> Saddest of all is that the drivers have a legitimate beef, and no other way to get their issues dealt with.


100% agree.


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## hecate

Ummm, gee, well, yes - travellers DO read the papers. AND watch TV. AND talk among themselves. Not only are they savvy, but they hail from all over. For many, vivid and extensive TV coverage -"naked bums on the streets of Rhodes", "drunken orgies in Zakynthos", etc - gives an indelible impression of Greek islands as being overrun with piggy Brits making, umm, asses of themselves. The fact that some islands have being written off as havens for downmarked package tourists is a helluva lot more damaging than strikes, corruption, tax law or any of the many other things that bother us who live here.


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## Adrm

Personally i moved in here for business .
I was in love with greece and Greek people .Came the crisis and I was sad because I thought that the greeks didn't deserve it .
Now after 5 month business I personally Hate Greece and Most of the greeks . 
Lazy ,dirty, able to do ...nothing .
Well I knew good people in here helpfull and friendly ...but the other side of the coin is that for every one good I met other 100 awfull .
The best people I met are English , Irish ,Italian ,German .and that's it .
Wanna know the truth ? Come and have a meal out. In Most of the restaurant the Oil for the fryier had not been changed from April till now . Most of the Mousaka are made with meat that should be waste but when it's for customers "It's still good" !Had guest who came in my restaurant with gastro enteritis thank's to a Mousaka in the" Best greek restaurant of the area".
Than what about the Landlords ? Well they look really friendly in the beginning than whatever you need if needs an Expansive you have to effort it , after few month they even forgive that you paid the rent and after a couple more they start to ask more money ... quite the double !!!!
I'm leaving as soon as I can and I swear I loved greece for long time ...now I wish it to sink .
I have a web site and when I'll leave I'll post my personal suggestions cause may be if you deal with the little good part you won't face my same big troubles .


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## KathyK

Adrm, what part of Greece do you live in so we can ensure we avoid the tavernas there!!! You don't have to give the town name, just the approx. area of Greece or the name of the island.


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## Adrm

Well , thanks for the question.
But when I said I hate Greeks and Greece I thought it was clear that this is a common way to do business all over greece !
I went on some other Island and collected Informations trough English and Italian business owner cause I thought it was only my area but I found out that is really common !!!


Have 2 REAL Stories that are really interesting :
Intro:I choose to move to Greece in a Family touristic resort cause in my mind I was quite sure that the basics services were guaranteed ..and that the mainly head of the area should speak english .

Well yesterday my girlfriend had a soft stomachache (hope is written well) all day long but she didn't mind , went for a swimm had usual food and at the end of the day she started to cry due to the strong pain. ( that's her fault, don't blame anyone for this )
At midnight she couldn't even stand and she was crying and pugging .. so I closed the buisiness and took her to the first medical centre in the area...CLOSED,
Second medical centre CLOSED 
third medical centre OPEN but the doctor with a fake smile told me that was a private clinic and if I had no private insurrance it would be really expansive ...I asked the price ..and Instead of having an answer He told me : REALLY expansive , if you don't have a private insurrance i suggest you to go straight to the main hospital where they can help you... I had 7500€ in my pocket ...but may be he was so expansive that there were no way to pay him with so little money ... So I took his suggestion .. I started the trip to the main hospital ...My Gf started to Pug a lot and I decided to stop at home ... 
Cause : the main Hospital is 20 km far from my house, on a awfull and really dangerous road (30 mintues driving fast) , They don't speak english at all , it's so dirty that my Gf said : Please don't take me down there...I'll prefer to pug other few times and I'll feel better ... ! 

At home I made her a hot tea , a hot water bag and after an hour she could sleep .
Ok , i knew it couldn't be that bad because she already had the main surgery in her digestive system (sorry for the english) but ..
What If I was a FAther on holiday with my son or my daughter ? 
Without car? 
What if I was an Old man with my old wife feeling sick ?

Few days ago I was walking down to a popular Town where Youngs are coming to do partyes and late night ...I was watching around and having some fun cause people down there are really strange from my point of view ...Drunk , Fancy dressed and really noisy sometimes they are better than Monthy Piton ... 
Anyway at one point I saw couple of youngs looking really worried .. Than in the middle of them I noticed a Big guy laid on his own vomit , just beside the pub where he was drinking till one minute before .. NO AMBULANCE ,and as no one was helping them they turnes This big guy laid on his vomit on his back EVERYONE KNOWS that if you have a Alcohol collapse the tangue can kill you if you are laid on your back .
Anyway they were so young that they didn't know it ... Now : 
Police where going around Trying to give fines to anyone , passed in front many times but never stopped. The Pub owner was still serving the drinks and the pusher In was doing his job as nothing unusual was happening down there. 
I walk on , and I felt **** cause the only thing I could do was saying to a police.."go over there and check" ... but I swear if it was out of my place I was shutting everything down and taking personally the guy to the hospital !!!The day After I would fire up whoever didn't tell me such a thing was happening outside of my place , and whoever gave to this guy such an ammount of Alcohol !!!!
After 20 minutes I walked the way back and the guy was not anymore there , I wish the police called the ambulance.And I wish for his family that he is still alive .


Even if I'm a business owner I really suggest to avoid Greece 
they do perfectly speak english when they have to collect your money ...but as soon as you need any help ...they really don't care at all ! 


On my opinion There are only 2 good reasons to come on a greek Island ,
The sea and the sun !!!!
But many other places all over the world have better sea and better sun , are cheaper (even Italy right now is cheaper than Greece ), better services ..and May Be some more people care about you and your child -I Italy I can swear that the medical centres are always open and if you need a doctor in your room there is a charge of maximum 80€ that will be refunded by the English medical service once back !


I'll change my web site as soon as I leave,cause now it's a bit dangerous, and i'll keep say to all people I can whatever I faced .It's A promise !


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## xenos

Haraki said:


> KathyK, yes you are right it how they think "well if I do this it will affect that" do they read the news papers? this article Greece's national strike threatens chaos for British tourists | World news | The Guardian will only have one affect on the 3,000,000 million brits that go to Greece every year. They will be going somewhere else! Then there will be no work for there trucks!!!



3 BILLION BRITS!!!! by my reckoning (after 1 1/2 kilos of wine) that is every person in the UK travelling to Greece 50 times!!! in a year


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## xenos

wka said:


> 100% agree.


The drivers ....where no new license has been issued for over 40 years (quote) but existing licences are sold on for HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF EUROS.....have a LEGITIMATE beef?? get real, get a life


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## wka

xenos, not everyone got handed a permit by Papadopoulos. Some of them took out loans in order to buy them (an investment).


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## xenos

wka said:


> xenos, not everyone got handed a permit by Papadopoulos. Some of them took out loans in order to buy them (an investment).


.....Then explain why NO NEW LICENSES have been issued for 40 years, as quoted by every news agency / tv channel and newspaper.


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## zefif

There are a ton of things I dont like about Greece.... which makes me wonder why I would ever want to move back there.


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## wka

cuz they bought them from other drivers who were retiring, obviously.


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## hecate

It's not the most animal-friendly place.
But at least we don't eat dogs. Or - for our Gallic chums - horses.


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## unhappybunny

*Residents permit*



wka said:


> I think the main thing I don't like is some bureaucratic hassles. Yesterday it took my husband SIX HOURS to do his απογραφή (which is supposed to take 5 minutes) because the system was so poorly designed / overloaded. My one-year residence permit wasn't issued until 12 days before it expired. My husband is a teacher and it's July 18 and we still don't know what part of Greece (not even which prefecture) we'll be living in come September. Getting my health insurance cost us so much money because we had to travel from our island to two different islands plus the mainland to get all the stamps and signatures necessary. They are so unclear about requirements that it doing immigration / taxes / property issues without a lawyer or an accountant is intimidating.
> 
> I think if you take away the bureaucracy, I couldn't really complain about anything else.


You don't need a residents permit .... now Greece is part of the EU these permits are not actually relevant. The only time I have had to produce mine is when buying a car. And this is not lawful according to the EU regulations - but then the Greeks make up their own laws (and change them with mononous regularity). I am looking at other countries in which to retire .... the thought of spending my last days in this God-forsaken country with rude, ignorant locals scares the Hell out of me.


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## wka

yeah I do have to. I have an immigration lawyer and I'm not looking for advice, thanks.


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## hecate

unhappybunny said:


> You don't need a residents permit .... now Greece is part of the EU these permits are not actually relevant. .....- but then the Greeks make up their own laws (and change them with mononous regularity). I am looking at other countries in which to retire .... the thought of spending my last days in this God-forsaken country with rude, ignorant locals scares the Hell out of me.


You do if you're not EU [WKA's American]

Yeh, the changing of laws is incredible and absurd, but since one of the country's main products is lawyers, I suppose they're just trying keep 'em busy....

Am curious about your unhappiness - care to elaborate? So much depends on where you live here: Athens, for instance, simply crushes people's spirit. And if one is trying to do business in the way most of us expect to, well - that way lies total blithering frustration.


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## xenos

wka said:


> cuz they bought them from other drivers who were retiring, obviously.


WKA, 

This could go back and forth for a long time. The Government want to actually issue NEW Licenses (at considerably less cost than the 250K plus cost of buying one) to avoid the Lorry driving mafia making a fortune from selling their old Locenses. Does anybody actually believe that in over 40 years road transport needs have not increased and thus the need for more drivers?


----------



## xenos

unhappybunny said:


> You don't need a residents permit .... now Greece is part of the EU these permits are not actually relevant. The only time I have had to produce mine is when buying a car. And this is not lawful according to the EU regulations - but then the Greeks make up their own laws (and change them with mononous regularity). I am looking at other countries in which to retire .... the thought of spending my last days in this God-forsaken country with rude, ignorant locals scares the Hell out of me.


FYI, the Residents Permit was replaced some years ago with the Certificate of Registration (which does not expire) which technically after 3 months residence, all UK Citizens require (try opening a bank account without one). or face a possible fine (never heard of it actually happening). If you go on your own - or even with "friendly" Greek, I can assure you it will take ALL DAY - starting at about 7am. 
If you can afford it, pay a lawyer (around 50 Euro) and they will send one of their staff. Much less hassle.
And I agree the red tape is kin ridiculous!


----------



## wka

I am no expert but I bet having more truck drivers would be a great thing. All I'm saying is that if you're 27, and 3 years ago you took out a loan for €250 000 for a license (which the government requires you to have), and now the government wants to sell the same thing to your new competitors for a fraction of the price, you have a legitimate complaint. 

However, that said, I ALSO believe that someone who purchased one of those licenses for €250 000 made a lousy business decision. Despite what the drivers claimed ("caught us by surprise"), they have been talking about doing this for YEARS. Personally I have very little sympathy for the drivers, but I do recognize the immediate harship this places on especially young drivers.

To avoid confusion for anyone who is unfamiliar with the laws in Greece, *residence permits are required* of anyone who wants to reside in Greece for more than the amount of time allowed on their visa (usually 90 days) unless they are a citizen of an EU member state. People like myself (I'm from the USA) must have a residence permit. _Residence permits are still required._


----------



## KathyK

We had to have up to date Residence Permits when purchasing a property last year - and we are from the EU Community.


----------



## zabestof

You must register at least at the tax office to get the AFM paper if you want to live here. You can stay without it because, theoretically, they cannot prove you're here for more than 90 days if you're an EU citizen. But without at least the AFM you can't do nothing. Cannot take a house for rent, cannot make a bank account, etc. If you want to work, then you'll need the STAY and WORK permit which took me 1 day, from 4 am to 3 pm to make (I`m from EU), but there were hundreds of immigrants from Pakistan, India, etc and they were treated like cattles.


----------



## xenos

wka said:


> I am no expert but I bet having more truck drivers would be a great thing. All I'm saying is that if you're 27, and 3 years ago you took out a loan for €250 000 for a license (which the government requires you to have), and now the government wants to sell the same thing to your new competitors for a fraction of the price, you have a legitimate complaint.
> 
> However, that said, I ALSO believe that someone who purchased one of those licenses for €250 000 made a lousy business decision. Despite what the drivers claimed ("caught us by surprise"), they have been talking about doing this for YEARS. Personally I have very little sympathy for the drivers, but I do recognize the immediate harship this places on especially young drivers.
> 
> To avoid confusion for anyone who is unfamiliar with the laws in Greece, *residence permits are required* of anyone who wants to reside in Greece for more than the amount of time allowed on their visa (usually 90 days) unless they are a citizen of an EU member state. People like myself (I'm from the USA) must have a residence permit. _Residence permits are still required._



....

WKA,

Apologies,

I wrongly assumed you were an EU Citizen. What you say is spot on - both about the Permits and the Lorry Licenses.


----------



## xenos

KathyK said:


> We had to have up to date Residence Permits when purchasing a property last year - and we are from the EU Community.


....

Kathy, 

I can assure you that the Residence Permit no longer exists. Maybe the Prefecture where you bought the property didnt actually know this (you must know by now how possible this is!). It was replaced as I said earlier by the Certificate of Registration. 
If your lawyer or any official says you still need an RP, I suggest you call your Embassy and ask them for a lawyer that knows what he is talking about (or that knows the latest changes in the law at least).

The new Certificate of Registration is a permanent thing - not a yearly (or was it 5 yearly) renewable thing, it costs ridiculously little BUT will involve spending all day at your local Aliens Bureau (as usual going from department to department obtaining stamps etc) unless you do what many do and get a lawyer to sort it for you. 

If anybody - and I mean anybody - officials, police etc etc wants to see a copy of one, please feel free to contact me.


----------



## Cairokid

unhappybunny said:


> You don't need a residents permit .


Do you no longer need a permit to work? Mine is due to expire soon so it would be nice not to have to go through the hassle of renewing it.


----------



## nikokons

Hi to everybody,

I came across this forum by accident and being Greek if i can i would like to help you. First of all, i must admit that you are courageous people living your countries to come to live in Greece.
However, some of the things that i read are a bit overstretched, and others are happening even in the countries you come from.

1)Cairokid, yes you do need a permit to work even if EU. I do my postdoc in NL, and I do need a work permit and residence card also even if EU. By being an EU citizen it just makes it easier to get one.
2)zabestof . I have lived in NL (5yrs), and CH (3 years) and studied in the UK. You do need to register in every European country, no matter from where you come from and you do need to get a AFM as i did in NL, and CH before i sign my contract? why is this so strange? it happens everywhere. that problem is indeed with all the pakistanis, indians, africans that come illegally, as Greece is in the EU borders and because of Dublin II agreement, if we cannot deport them back we need to keep them as no other european country will get them and you may imagine that UK, or NL do not have the same rate of illegal immigrant influx as Greece, italy or spain bordering with africa and asia.
3)as for medical care. I can assure you and not by being greek in emergency greece is one of the best countries in EU..where we are PATHETIC is routine exams, schedule goes on forever and of course you need to bribe...but consider that we have 800k of illegal, not insured immigrants that get treatment for free..so already a BAD system becomes WORSE. that is not happening in any other country of EU. Moreover being in NL, i had to visit that family doctor 3 times until my soon gets antiobiotics for his 41C fever which eventually subsided. 
I can write a lot of things, and dont take me wrong especially Nowadays with the crisis greece will get only worse..not better. 

if there is something i can help with i would be happy to.




Cairokid said:


> Do you no longer need a permit to work? Mine is due to expire soon so it would be nice not to have to go through the hassle of renewing it.


----------



## xenos

nikokons......AND EVERYBODY ELSE

First of all, I can only speak for myself as a UK Citizen.....

As stated several times before on this and other threads, there is no longer such a thing as a Resident Permit (the old renewable one) and there has not been for a number of years. 

What the new one is, is a Certifcate of Registration which is permanent.

Many prefectures do not know this (Greek Law - dont ya love it) but PLEASE anybody concerned consult a lawyer about this. 
I have a PERMANENT NON RENEWABLE C of R. It took a visit to a friendly lawyer and to save me spending an entire day there I paid the lawyer to send somebody to obtain it for me.

As for the work permit I unfortuantely have no idea - maybe Im illegal (or semi illegal) but please please please stop sounding off about the Resident Oermit because IT DOESNT EXIST AND HAS NOT DONE SO FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS.

Please fell free to contact me either via this board or privately and I will gladly give full details.


----------



## voltron

Wow have just read this thread and i recognise many of the things you say here in cyprus although admittedly not as bad as described here. Things that get up my nose are nepotism - its everywhere! And secondly the fact that everyones ambition is to work for the governemnt and i quote "for an easy life and they can never sack you".. 

Basically the govenment offices finish at 2pm and are massive bloated inefficient places... add the nepotism to this and you can see why greece got into the state its in.. eg paying too much for contracts because its a relitave and the exec is getting a back hander... Sadly cyprus doesnt seem to be learning by the failure of greece and i think the governemtn employs like 60% of people.. crazy!!


----------



## nikokons

Voltron, why such a suprise? Cypriots are greeks after all...
AS for Greece, we are going down simply because it is our fault... we dont pay our taxes (at least those who can hide income)...and we vote for the same inefficient and corrupted politicians with the hope that they will give us a position in the public sector... cyprus is like that but in some things cypriots are quite more efficient than greeks residing in greece.





voltron said:


> Wow have just read this thread and i recognise many of the things you say here in cyprus although admittedly not as bad as described here. Things that get up my nose are nepotism - its everywhere! And secondly the fact that everyones ambition is to work for the governemnt and i quote "for an easy life and they can never sack you"..
> 
> Basically the govenment offices finish at 2pm and are massive bloated inefficient places... add the nepotism to this and you can see why greece got into the state its in.. eg paying too much for contracts because its a relitave and the exec is getting a back hander... Sadly cyprus doesnt seem to be learning by the failure of greece and i think the governemtn employs like 60% of people.. crazy!!


----------



## Cairokid

xenos said:


> nikokons......AND EVERYBODY ELSE
> 
> First of all, I can only speak for myself as a UK Citizen.....
> 
> As stated several times before on this and other threads, there is no longer such a thing as a Resident Permit (the old renewable one) and there has not been for a number of years.
> 
> What the new one is, is a Certifcate of Registration which is permanent.
> 
> Many prefectures do not know this (Greek Law - dont ya love it) but PLEASE anybody concerned consult a lawyer about this.
> I have a PERMANENT NON RENEWABLE C of R. It took a visit to a friendly lawyer and to save me spending an entire day there I paid the lawyer to send somebody to obtain it for me.
> 
> As for the work permit I unfortuantely have no idea - maybe Im illegal (or semi illegal) but please please please stop sounding off about the Resident Oermit because IT DOESNT EXIST AND HAS NOT DONE SO FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS.
> 
> Please fell free to contact me either via this board or privately and I will gladly give full details.


Does this permanent certificate of registration allow you to work? Sounds good not to have to renew it.


----------



## itsjir

dead animals on the roads  this is just ...


----------



## voltron

I don't like the fact that Constantinople or Nova roma is not part of greece.. Also the recent developement of national identity as greek rather than Roman.. Even in the independance speech of 1826? there are references to the roman people (ie greeks).. I think its much better.


----------



## IrinaP

Haraki said:


> As an expats I am sure if you are the same as me, once the exitment of moving to Greece has passed and you try and intrigate yourself into the local Greek community, some things just start to anoy you, I laugh at them now but at the time, I just could not get my head round the Greek way of thinking.
> I really would like to share these moment with you, and now be able to laugh together.
> 
> Just for for example: my first experience of aquiring a greek tradesman to do some work on the apartment, great phone call, the work not a problem will be there the next morning, well three bloody mornings later he showed up as if this is when he said he would arrive, I can laugh at it now


I hear you 100%. Although I am Greek but born outside of Greece and now permanatly living here, I thought I would get to the mentality but still struggling to fit in.


----------



## pandelis

xenos said:


> ....
> 
> Kathy,
> 
> I can assure you that the Residence Permit no longer exists. Maybe the Prefecture where you bought the property didnt actually know this (you must know by now how possible this is!). It was replaced as I said earlier by the Certificate of Registration.
> If your lawyer or any official says you still need an RP, I suggest you call your Embassy and ask them for a lawyer that knows what he is talking about (or that knows the latest changes in the law at least).
> 
> The new Certificate of Registration is a permanent thing - not a yearly (or was it 5 yearly) renewable thing, it costs ridiculously little BUT will involve spending all day at your local Aliens Bureau (as usual going from department to department obtaining stamps etc) unless you do what many do and get a lawyer to sort it for you.
> 
> If anybody - and I mean anybody - officials, police etc etc wants to see a copy of one, please feel free to contact me.


Xenos, 
concerning the Certificate of Registration - what documentation is required when applying? I was at the Greek consulate today in Zurich and they were talking about a Residence Permit - how confusing! By the way, I am an EU citizen, not Swiss.
I would be grateful for any tips.
Thanks and regards


----------



## KathyK

IrinaP. Yes, it is like Greeks are on a different planet to the rest of the World. We've lived in Greece for a few years, but still their ways can annoy you if you're not in the right mood. Mainly we now expect things "not to happen - or not to happen properly" and manage to laugh at the many foibles, but sometimes...!!!


----------



## kentavros

*Rubbish everywhere but at home and in the car*

1) I hate the smell of dirty rubbish bins everywhere - are these never cleaned out? Also the bins obstruct the pavements, the roads and are a menace. Try walking in Athens (or nearly any town or city) on a summer's day and the smell is disgusting.
2) People chucking rubbish out of the car window - especially in beauty spots.
3) People leaving their rubbish on the beach (usually neatly wrapped up in a supermarket bag)
4) People leaving supermarket trollies in the road (one supermarket actually sends a van out to collect them! - this is insane)

They then all complain that the local council does nothing to clean up the rubbish!


----------



## IrinaP

KathyK said:


> IrinaP. Yes, it is like Greeks are on a different planet to the rest of the World. We've lived in Greece for a few years, but still their ways can annoy you if you're not in the right mood. Mainly we now expect things "not to happen - or not to happen properly" and manage to laugh at the many foibles, but sometimes...!!!


True... you get into that frame of mind, no way out


----------



## IrinaP

tpebop said:


> Greeks dont care about the countryside. If they have something to get rid of, they just dump it by the roadside. All manner of things from household rubbish to white goods & vehicles


have seem garbage bags being thrown from the 2nd floor to only be picked up later and thrown in the bin. 

Could you imagine if they had the German system, they will go mad and start complaining. The system in Germany is good, the municipality sends you a program as to when the plastic, bottle etc., will be collected. While visiting and staying with family I was taught to clean the plastic i.e. yoghurt cup before throwing in the platic bin, reason being that it wont stink and then it will be clean when it is taken for re-cycling. I love the system and wish the Greeks could adapt to that and see what difference it will make to our planet.


----------



## xenos

pandelis said:


> Xenos,
> concerning the Certificate of Registration - what documentation is required when applying? I was at the Greek consulate today in Zurich and they were talking about a Residence Permit - how confusing! By the way, I am an EU citizen, not Swiss.
> I would be grateful for any tips.
> Thanks and regards


.......

Pandellis,

Under article 8 of the new presidential decree and article 8 of the EU directive, EU citizens who wish to stay in another member state for more than three months are required to apply for a registration certificate (veveosi eggrafis) at their local aliens bureau. The registration certificate does not have to be renewed.

Previous legislation required non-Greek EU citizens to obtain a residence permit that had to be renewed every five years.

To register, EU citizens are required to submit the following documents: a valid identity card or passport; confirmation of engagement from the applicant's employer or a certificate of employment or proof that they are self-employed. Those who are not active in the labour market will only need to submit proof of medical insurance and that they have sufficient monetary resources for themselves and their family.

The registration certificate should be issued on the spot. It is also free of charge.

EU citizens who do not register will be subject to a fine of at least 59 euros, based on articles 8 and 27 of the new decree and article 458 of the Greek Penal Code. 

........

You will also spend all day at the Aliens Bureau unless you have the money to pay a lawyer.

Good luck!!


----------



## IrinaP

hecate said:


> At the moment I'm heartily sick of my friends - Greeks - blaming everyone else for the economic mess.


The fall of our economic situation started years ago were one government blames the other, all pretend that everything is fine and Greece is doing well, that is what we heard with the previous government and the one before that as well, they all knew the economy was not doing well but refused to deal with it and maximised their personal gain.

They say usally Greeks unite when things get tough, i.e the Olympic games in 2004, but this time around things are not so easy and Greece has a lot of pressure to pay off the huge loan taken. The unfairness of it all is the fact that the middle class, poor, retired people who have been hit the most were the expense of living leaves them with nothing to spare. I have seen elderly at the Sunday market (laiki) were they go at the end of the market and pick up left overs that are on the street or even pick things up from the garbage bins. 

What upsets me most is the rich class who have the yachts, private jets, homes with swiming pools and offshore money are still living on a world of their own and the government are not doing anything at all. We have heard that they were tabbing on the rich community but never a follow up on whether it has been done!! The people need to know.


----------



## pandelis

xenos said:


> .......
> 
> Pandellis,
> 
> Under article 8 of the new presidential decree and article 8 of the EU directive, EU citizens who wish to stay in another member state for more than three months are required to apply for a registration certificate (veveosi eggrafis) at their local aliens bureau. The registration certificate does not have to be renewed.
> 
> Previous legislation required non-Greek EU citizens to obtain a residence permit that had to be renewed every five years.
> 
> To register, EU citizens are required to submit the following documents: a valid identity card or passport; confirmation of engagement from the applicant's employer or a certificate of employment or proof that they are self-employed. Those who are not active in the labour market will only need to submit proof of medical insurance and that they have sufficient monetary resources for themselves and their family.
> 
> The registration certificate should be issued on the spot. It is also free of charge.
> 
> EU citizens who do not register will be subject to a fine of at least 59 euros, based on articles 8 and 27 of the new decree and article 458 of the Greek Penal Code.
> 
> ........
> 
> You will also spend all day at the Aliens Bureau unless you have the money to pay a lawyer.
> 
> Good luck!!


Thanks!


----------



## Spyros

*Selfish*

Basically just a very selfish culture....thank god my folks moved to Oz.


----------



## xenos

Spyros said:


> Basically just a very selfish culture....thank god my folks moved to Oz.


Actually, even in these hard times, most NORMAL Greeks are still very friendlly and helpful.......


----------



## hecate

IrinaP said:


> What upsets me most is the rich class who have the yachts, private jets, homes with swiming pools and offshore money are still living on a world of their own and the government are not doing anything at all. We have heard that they were tabbing on the rich community but never a follow up on whether it has been done!! The people need to know.



Umm, but the people _do_ know. Te na kanoume? The gov't has already backed off their much-vaunted "attack" on tax-dodgers, as Kathimerini has been sputtering about for several days:

"...the government’s reasoning that the tax collection drive (offering taxpayers the chance to settle outstanding debts going back over the last 10 years) is a “necessary evil.” What this means is that insulting punctual taxpayers is unavoidable, *while those who built their wealth and connections thanks to ongoing evasion and fraud will be let off*." 

So what are we supposed to do? Vote this bunch out of office? Contact our elected reps and demand they fight for us? Look to the courts for fairness and equity? 

And people kvetch about garbage...


----------



## mollycat

whilst I agree that it can be very frustrating living in Greece, we were recently in the Uk to sort out some of my father's paper work and it was a s bad if not worse, at last in Greece they smile when there is a problem


----------



## Haraki

A couple of things have happened recentley, first is that goverment are setting a fine for property owners to pay because the builders have a smaller living space on the architects drawings submited on registering the property which now the owner has a chance to pay a so called low fine if the property ever gets sold on the fine will be higher....so tell me what the effing eck is now then....even if I have paid the low fine no new architect drawings where going to be given to me....this one had me completley baffled and decided not to pay.

Now my neighbour is a farmer, got a builder to build a 4 appartment block which he got one appartment for nothing....I bought the last appartment, the farmer did not want to have an agreement contract for the communial cost for the sharred areas etc. as he said his son would be able to do it much cheaper....well as you have worked out it all went pear shapped, one of the other appartments was purchased by a greek, and he did not want to pay his share of the communial costs, so this October the farmer was complaining how he was out of pocket. I said I will organise a communial contract agreement which coulkd be enforced by law, the farmer agreed, well by the time I had got home to the UK the farmer had spread rumors that I was taking the other occuppier to court, within 2 weeks the rumors were rife and I though I was having a one to one private discussion, how naieve was I.

Smiling now but not at the time


----------



## IrinaP

mollycat said:


> whilst I agree that it can be very frustrating living in Greece, we were recently in the Uk to sort out some of my father's paper work and it was a s bad if not worse, at last in Greece they smile when there is a problem



A smile could mean anything from (1) a psychastic smile (2) I dont care smile. I dont see anyone smiling these days and for a long time now... everywhere I go I hear complaints and frustration. Some I understand their concern but others who have been taking advantage of the government jobs dont deserve to nag.


----------



## saharapunk

the food! it can make even the most determined and health conscious woman the size of a house! IT'S THAT GOOD! i think i ate one of those feta pie things everyday when i was there. also, every dessert is better than the last. it's like a food dream come true. but i also agree with the aforementioned post, it's really sad to see roadkill hanging around for a couple of weeks! oh yeah i also dislike mcleod's daughters played on the the television, it's an embarrassing and cringeworthy respresentation of australia and australian tv. EW!


----------



## IrinaP

saharapunk said:


> the food! it can make even the most determined and health conscious woman the size of a house! IT'S THAT GOOD! i think i ate one of those feta pie things everyday when i was there. also, every dessert is better than the last. it's like a food dream come true. but i also agree with the aforementioned post, it's really sad to see roadkill hanging around for a couple of weeks! oh yeah i also dislike mcleod's daughters played on the the television, it's an embarrassing and cringeworthy respresentation of australia and australian tv. EW!


Yes the feta pies are good but one has to be careful eating them or else they get adictive and the pounds pile on. Greece is also famous in their deserts and there are all sorts to chose from, another danger zone A for the road kill, I am ashamed to say that the municipality of the area does not pick them up quick enough unless someone calls them. As to a TV show misrepresentation of Australia, I will be honest in saying that greeks dont follow Australian soaps and can neither understand the accent. So not to worry, Greece has many other concerns to worry about that what they think of another country.


----------



## IrinaP

hecate said:


> Umm, but the people _do_ know. Te na kanoume? The gov't has already backed off their much-vaunted "attack" on tax-dodgers, as Kathimerini has been sputtering about for several days:
> 
> "...the government’s reasoning that the tax collection drive (offering taxpayers the chance to settle outstanding debts going back over the last 10 years) is a “necessary evil.” What this means is that insulting punctual taxpayers is unavoidable, *while those who built their wealth and connections thanks to ongoing evasion and fraud will be let off*."
> 
> So what are we supposed to do? Vote this bunch out of office? Contact our elected reps and demand they fight for us? Look to the courts for fairness and equity?
> 
> And people kvetch about garbage...


It all started in 2004, the perfect year for Greece but even then the government knew that Greece was facing problems and so did this government but no one wanted to admit it nor wanted to do anything about finding a solutions. So the vultures started pocketing profits, avoid paying taxes and build one villa after the other yet still claiming their salary was hardly to live on. 

So far and to pay up our financial loan, the middle class, low class and the retieree were affected most forgetting about the singers, actors, doctors, lawyers. I hear on the news the government is tabbing on them and questioning their income, well it is about time. 

What I dont understand is why are they increading the price of basic items that every household uses lilke bread and milk? Whay are they increasing bus tickets agaian, gone up to 2.50 euros per ticket valid for only one trip, not like before were you bought a ticket for 1 euros and it lasted an hour and a half, not forgetting the electricity prices that are also going up. I dont know how people are going to make it in 2011, there is so much anger, frustration, that I dont think something good is going to come out of it.... another revolution??? maybe??


----------



## xenos

[QUO Whay are they increasing bus tickets agaian, gone up to 2.50 euros per ticket valid for only one trip, not like before were you bought a ticket for 1 euros and it lasted an hour and a half, 

......

where are the bus tickets 2.5 euros??? in Athens they are still 1 euro and valid for 1 1/2 hours...they are due to go up in February to about 1.30....please enlighten us


----------



## neilgraham

well at least greece doesn't ban you from eating pork, they do in turkey!! counting the days til our next trip to kos to satisfy our pig cravings!!


----------



## IrinaP

xenos said:


> [QUO Whay are they increasing bus tickets agaian, gone up to 2.50 euros per ticket valid for only one trip, not like before were you bought a ticket for 1 euros and it lasted an hour and a half,
> 
> ......
> 
> where are the bus tickets 2.5 euros??? in Athens they are still 1 euro and valid for 1 1/2 hours...they are due to go up in February to about 1.30....please enlighten us


You can still use the bus tickets that are 1 euro and valid for 1 1/2. Nothing has been 100% finaalized yet but it will happen. We will get to know about it very soon.


----------



## IrinaP

neilgraham said:


> well at least greece doesn't ban you from eating pork, they do in turkey!! counting the days til our next trip to kos to satisfy our pig cravings!!



it all has to do with their religion. Mind you in Dubai, they do sett pok in certain area but not in supermarkets.


----------



## Felixtoo2

In Dubai they sell pork in most supermarkets but in a seperate area, bloody expensive here though!


----------



## IrinaP

Felixtoo2 said:


> In Dubai they sell pork in most supermarkets but in a seperate area, bloody expensive here though!


Things must have changed in Dubai since I left... need to keep the expats happy


----------



## Felixtoo2

Well of course, no expats= no Dubai


----------



## xenos

Whay are they increasing bus tickets agaian, gone up to 2.50 euros per ticket valid for only one trip, not like before were you bought a ticket for 1 euros and it lasted an hour and a half, not forgetting the electricity prices that are also going up.

....

.....
You can still use the bus tickets that are 1 euro and valid for 1 1/2. Nothing has been 100% finaalized yet but it will happen. We will get to know about it very soon. ....



IRINA P

I quote you twice above.....GONE up to 2.5 euro per ticket etc etc etc

Nothing has been 100% finaalized yet but it will happen etc etc etc

....

So my question to you is....Have they GONE up already to 2.5 euro which you clearly state they have or are they GOING up to 2.5 euro valid for only one journey etc et etc

The latest news is that that MAY go up to 1.3 euro, still valid for 1.5 hours and valid for all forms of public transport....but NOWHERE NOWHERE have I read or been told that they are going up to 2.5.

Please explain your scaremongering comment


----------



## IrinaP

xenos said:


> Whay are they increasing bus tickets agaian, gone up to 2.50 euros per ticket valid for only one trip, not like before were you bought a ticket for 1 euros and it lasted an hour and a half, not forgetting the electricity prices that are also going up.
> 
> ....
> 
> .....
> You can still use the bus tickets that are 1 euro and valid for 1 1/2. Nothing has been 100% finaalized yet but it will happen. We will get to know about it very soon. ....
> 
> 
> 
> IRINA P
> 
> I quote you twice above.....GONE up to 2.5 euro per ticket etc etc etc
> 
> Nothing has been 100% finaalized yet but it will happen etc etc etc
> 
> ....
> 
> So my question to you is....Have they GONE up already to 2.5 euro which you clearly state they have or are they GOING up to 2.5 euro valid for only one journey etc et etc
> 
> The latest news is that that MAY go up to 1.3 euro, still valid for 1.5 hours and valid for all forms of public transport....but NOWHERE NOWHERE have I read or been told that they are going up to 2.5.
> 
> Please explain your scaremongering comment


Tickets have not gone up as yet, it will be announced on TV or the news papers.


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## xenos

IrinaP said:


> Tickets have not gone up as yet, it will be announced on TV or the news papers.


Anybody that uses public transport here KNOWS they havent gone up, my question is why did you state THEY HAD gone up??


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## xenos

A wave of price increases for the essential products and services in Greece | GRReporter.info- News from Greece - Breaking News, Business, Sport, Multimedia and Video.

quote.....Tickets for public transport in Athens will also increase in price from 1 euro to 1.30 euros, prices of monthly cards will also raise.


Public Transport Fare Increases February 1st, Athens | Greece.GreekReporter.com Latest News from Greece

quote.....Deputy Infrastructures Minister Spyros Vougias, speaking to a state-run television programme on Saturday morning, announced an increase in public transport fares in Athens as of February 1st.
Vougias said that tickets in the capital will increase to 1.20 euros for ordinary rides and to 1.40 for combined ones, with a time validity of 90 minutes.


Greek strikes continue amid spike in unemployment - San Antonio Express-News

quote.....Tickets for public transport services will rise on Feb. 1 from the current price of €1 ($1.30) to up to €1.40 ($1.82), but the government said it was maintaining high subsidy levels to keep prices low.

"We have the cheapest public transport in Europe," deputy transport minister Spyros Vouyias told parliament.


Irina, please quote your source for the 2 euro increase, valid for only one journey..EVERYTHING that I read says 1.30-1.40 valid still for 1 1/2 hours


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## IrinaP

xenos said:


> Anybody that uses public transport here KNOWS they havent gone up, my question is why did you state THEY HAD gone up??


Will be but not gone up yet


----------



## xenos

IrinaP said:


> Will be but not gone up yet


I ask once again to tell your sources for the increase to 2.5 euro valid for one journey...

everything i have read and the 3 newws items above suggerst a rise to 1.3 - 1.4 euro, including a TV quote from the Minister....

perhaps you know better


----------



## IrinaP

xenos said:


> I ask once again to tell your sources for the increase to 2.5 euro valid for one journey...
> 
> everything i have read and the 3 newws items above suggerst a rise to 1.3 - 1.4 euro, including a TV quote from the Minister....
> 
> perhaps you know better


I dont know better... it is what I heard on the news. Why dont we wait and see instead of guessing. I too use publilc transport.


----------



## xenos

IrinaP said:


> I dont know better... it is what I heard on the news. Why dont we wait and see instead of guessing. I too use publilc transport.



My thoughts exactly ....lets wait and see.

But I wasnt the one that clearly stated that they HAD gone up to 2 euro and valid for only one joourney was I???


----------



## IrinaP

xenos said:


> My thoughts exactly ....lets wait and see.
> 
> But I wasnt the one that clearly stated that they HAD gone up to 2 euro and valid for only one joourney was I???


I simply stated what I heard. so if you are looking for more precise information, why dont you contact the Ministry of Transport, maybe they can be more of assistance. Good luck.


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## xenos

IrinaP said:


> I simply stated what I heard. so if you are looking for more precise information, why dont you contact the Ministry of Transport, maybe they can be more of assistance. Good luck.


.....

if you take the time to read the 3 links i posted you will find a quote from the Minister, I would respectfully suggest that you heck your sources before posting rumours


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## IrinaP

xenos said:


> .....
> 
> if you take the time to read the 3 links i posted you will find a quote from the Minister, I would respectfully suggest that you heck your sources before posting rumours


your comment is HIGHLY appreciated.


----------



## FEIwannabe

Back to the original topic: What don't you like about Greece 
I HATE (yes I do mean hate, not dislike) people parking on the sidewalk and in front of cross walks.


----------



## IrinaP

FEIwannabe said:


> Back to the original topic: What don't you like about Greece
> I HATE (yes I do mean hate, not dislike) people parking on the sidewalk and in front of cross walks.


There are no proper side walks in Greece.. or if they are they are dangerous to walk on due to either the one you mentioned or stepping on dog poo poo


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## xenos

IrinaP said:


> There are no proper side walks in Greece.. or if they are they are dangerous to walk on due to either the one you mentioned or stepping on dog poo poo


...

Irina,

We agree on something!!! 

Dont forget the idiots that ride their motorcycles on the pavement, including the dear old Policemen going for their coffee!!!


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## IrinaP

xenos said:


> ...
> 
> Irina,
> 
> We agree on something!!!
> 
> Dont forget the idiots that ride their motorcycles on the pavement, including the dear old Policemen going for their coffee!!!


Finally :clap2:


----------



## Haraki

Has anybody been affected by the rain in Rhodes or elsewhere?


----------



## KathyK

I don't live on Rodos, but do live in the Dodecanese islands. This is our fourth January in Greece and by far the wettest, and much cooler than last January. Roads flooded and covered in debris in parts (though not "flooding" when compared to Queensland in Aus of course).


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## pellasgos

astro-kopp said:


> I work at a cheese store, have been working there since nearly the day I arrived here. And the first thing to struck me as a wee bit extra-ordinarily odd was the way all and sundry champ their mouths while eating. Sometimes when a costumer inquires about a certain type of cheese and if a long protracted rabbit and pork don't pander to inquisitiveness of a given punter I simply slice a little chunk of the prospective cheese for their degustation, but every time I do so I have to put up with these loud chompings. What kind of code of ethics is this? How can this be so widespread? Obviously, I thought that this particular type of foible is considered as unsavoury, something that's not pleasant to regard or hearken no matter which country you reside in
> But there you go, go into any café (you should consider yourself lucky if you have an iPod with you in that case you can simply plug your ears and get along with your nosh)
> 
> I went through 7 rings of hell when I applied for a food hygiene certificate. No one at the hospital was able to pinpoint with the slightest precision where I could make an appointment or lodge a request. The thing I got was a series of referring me to a doctor which ,respectively, referred me to another and another and so on until I gave in and left the hospital vanquished and in high dudgeon. It's not only me as an expat that whinges about this, Greeks themselves are appalled. Civil Services in this country are in execrable condition.
> 
> And there's this moment of their being overly impolitic towards time. They don't care in the least if someone they are holding up are short of time or simply want to get along with their businesses. I think I'll move to Sweden, the country that's obverse when it comes to contrasting these two.


wow! astro kop! Pretty fancy words you use for a guy that works in a cheese store!!


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## micdhack

hey everybody,

i have to admit is kind of harsh to hear the things posted in this topic and knowing that i was born and grew up there. But, i have to admit that the things that you mentioned are 100% accurate!

Many of these things bothered me when i was growing up, but especially when i first visited other countries(civilized countries), things didn't just bother me anymore but i couldn't get them out of my mind. The funny thing is that most Greek don't notice these things and cannot make a simple cause and effect association for the problems that they encounter everyday. One reason may be something that i heard from my mom(and not only) over and over again..."what can you do, that's life, that happens everywhere". It is ignorance at it's highest level.

What i would like to ask though is, how are Greeks towards foreigners. I've been living in the Czech Republic for the past 2 years and i have to admit that the majority of the population is racist/xenophobic towards foreigners. When i say racist i mean in many ways such as, "i hate you and i don't wanna see you" to "you can live here, but i dont want to socialize with you". In any case, thinking that a foreigner is an Alien and somehow behaves different. Now i know for a fact that is not the case for Canada but having experienced Greece as a local i am biased when it comes to rating how Greeks feel and behave towards foreigners.


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## wka

micdhack - I imagine it varies very widely. As an American, I am regularly shocked by things that seem - to me - to be blatantly and unacceptably racist, but Greeks will often say "oh that's not racism," - I'm thinking of (I swear I have seen this within the last 2 months with my own eyes) TV presenters pulling their eyes into slits and making "chee-chaw" sounds to pretend to be Chinese or Japanese (or just using words like "kinezoeidis" when referring to an Asian person. If an American used an English translation of that word they would lose 90% of their social circle instantaneously. We have a VERY strong knee-jerk reaction to anything like that. I've heard racist slurs and jokes that literally made me go white - and the people saying them don't see that as racist, just as funny. The Greek explanation (I've heard many many times) is that "racism" in Greece is not about saying something pointless that makes someone else feel like sh*t or humiliates them publicly (apparently that's okay to do!), it's about more "essential" things like not hiring someone because of their skin color. My culture says BOTH are racist.

A Greek woman told me that she's frightened of black people. Not two specific black people that did something bad to her (she doesn't know a single black person). Black people, period. I like to think that this particular woman is just an idiot, not representative of Greeks or women from Thessaloniki or even women that live on her particular city block.

I personally have been the recipient of racial racism (I specify because Greeks use the term ratsismos to refer to everything from discrimination against old people to discrimination against gay people, not just race), a handful of times, and almost always from people who had NO idea of my racial background (it's not "visible") - to his credit, one person was told by a third party that he had unknowingly said "I hate your people" to my face - I had nothing to do with this and would have preferred nothing be said, but it was - and he sought me out and apologized at length. Separately from that, as an American I've heard a LOT of crap from Greeks, especially my father in law, about America(ns) but I always expected that and it doesn't bother me.

I will admit that the only time Greek anti-Americanism bothered me was among Greeks living in NYC who told me that they hated the US and were only there "to milk the cow". That kind of got under my skin, apparently, since it happened over 10 yrs ago and I still remember. In Greece, it doesn't bother me, after all, they have a point. The US has a bad record in Greece.

As a FOREIGNER living in Greece - mainly it is just ignorance, but not hateful or "you should leave". I'm sure I'm pretty ignorant of the challenges facing immigrants in my country too. I shouldn't expect Greeks to know that getting married doesn't solve all problems, or that being American doesn't count for sh*t - two misconceptions I am soooo tired of hearing parroted at me constantly. "But that doesn't matter! Your husband is Greek! And you're American!" I've also gotten so sick and tired of trying to convince people that I'm not actually Greek, just because I speak Greek fluently. Speaking Greek is not some sort of secret club, or something you have to be born with a particular gene to be able to do. The language isn't even that hard if you take classes, live here, and speak it all day and at home, so stop congratulating me (no one congratulates you in the US if you speak English, no matter where you're from. I live in Greece, therefore I don't deserve congrats for speaking Greek, end of story). "Where in Greece are you from? No, I mean your family? No, I mean, what part of Greece did they come from before they went to the US? No, I mean..." Sorry, LOTS of people who aren't Greek speak your language... they're called immigrants... and YES that is what I am, even though I'm from the USA, and I made more money i the US than I'll ever make here LOL!!


----------



## wka

oh and welcome to the forum!!!


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## micdhack

wka - thanks for the long detailed answer. Most of the things are as i ve seen them myself as a native Greek. Imagine i was 22 years old when i actually held a long conversation with a black person. So i can see why would somebody be xenophobic but it depends on the education of that person and the intelligence.

For me it is kind of weird that people in the States are allowed to say i'm a Greek-American and in Greece that is non existent. You either Greek or you're a foreigner, which is sad if you are a believer in multicultural societies like i am.

And, you are also right about the pride that Greek people have which is kind of irrational since no major achievements have been made by the country in the past century! Maybe thats why the give you congrats about the language. But, having being stuck at an intermediate level in Czech, it is quite an achievement to master any language.

Since i understand you re a woman, if you dont mind me asking, how are the women towards you? The reason that i am asking is that my girlfriend is Canadian and we are at the stage of serious planning, so many times in our conversations the case of us moving to Greece has been thrown to the table mainly from her. Aside from the many reasons in a long list that i have about why we should never move to Greece, one of them is that i suspect (from what i ve seen when i was living there), that the women are not welcoming to female foreigners and they are kind of b*****s.


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## wka

I have found myself saying that too - I think in depends on age. As I've gotten older (I'm 30 now), I've found it much easier to find Greek women to be friends with. When I was in my low and mid 20s, the other women my age seemed much more "closed" - they had their parea and they were "full" socially. I've heard from at least 3 or 4 Greeks that "I don't consider a person a friend if we haven't been friends since age 8 or 10. Someone you meet when you're in high school or college or work is just not ever going to be a FRIEND." That's total BS and shows a total lack of understanding of how human relationships evolve. But aside from that, I've noticed that around age 28 or so, women seem to be a little more open to making friends (including with foreigners). I'm guessing it's in part because they're starting to LOSE some of their old parea - maybe some of them have children now and have different lifestyles/interests, may some of them moved away, and they need new friends. My best "source" of new friends has been my husband's colleagues at work - people the same age and educational level as us who have similar interests and life experiences, all of whom are open to making new friends because we live on a small island in the middle of freaking nowhere. 

It's also very obvious to me that speaking Greek has been essential in being able to develop close friendships. Despite the fact that they've all taken YEARS of English in school, and must come into contact with English (movies, internet) in live, I literally cannot think of a single person that I have met through my husband here in Greece who speaks English well enough to have a real conversation. My best friend (she's American) is very similar to me in that she's lived off and on for several years in Greece, and has now been here for 2 years straight - she speaks Greek well enough to get by but not well enough to be an active participant in a a conversation with two Greek speakers. Despite living here for 2 years, she doesn't have any really good Greek girlfriends. I have another good friend who lived 18 months in Greece, never really learned Greek beyond the basics, but is the most friendly person you can imagine, has TONS of friends in Greece, but none of them are Greek - they are from Denmark, Norway, UK, Australia, USA, Germany, etc etc.

I've been lucky that my husband is very sociable and makes friends very easily and I have a "free pass" as his wife, from which it's much easier for me to develop friendships. Even so, I can count on the fingers of one hand the women here in Greece who I could call crying at 3am if I were upset about something.

Incidentally if you do decide to move to Greece with your GF, she won't be able to work or even stay in Greece for longer than 3 months unless she marries you. If you make it that stage, I have a long and detailed thread on this forum about how to go through all the (hellish) paperwork. The bureaucracy is extraordinary.


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## micdhack

Yeap i know what you mean about the paperwork and also translating them into native languages. But that's Greece, why fix the bureaucratic system when you can go out for coffee.

It is interesting though that Greeks are the same in many ways like Czechs are here. I know lots of foreign people that have many international friends but 0 Czech friends. And it is not that all of the Czech population hates foreigners, but somehow they just don't want to be really friendly with foreigners or interact beyond a basic level.

I can see now that my suspicions are correct. Cuz every time that we would visit Greece in the summer i could see that people were weird. I don't know if it is because we weren't speaking Greek or because we just looked foreign. Likely, like in you case with your husband, i was able to introduce to my friends and actually they welcomed her. I was surprised to see them actually trying to speak with her and it left me wondering why they didn't had any other foreign friends. I mean if they can communicate and they are interested in actually learning somebody else's culture then what's the prob.


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## tryyourbest

I can tell you what I do like - the sun.

I've found it very hard here - the chaotic nature has really got to be especially recently. Really little things like the inability of Greeks to park inbetween the white lines in the supermarket, which means you can't find a parking space - silly, silly things like that. 

More seriously, I was generally treated like a second rate citizen at work. I had heard that it is difficult to work in private companies here, and didn't believe anybody - but boy was it true. There was a lot of shouting, but not a great deal of positive progress...It struck me as very unprofessional. I actually quit - because I could tell they didn't want me there. In fact I clashed with everybody. I think I was used to having an opinion, you can't have an opinion in a company that are paying your wages, here at least. Perhaps I came across as a cocky foreigner - I'm actually fairly quiet though.

The smoking issue - sorry smokers (for which it is probably paradise) but for a non-smoker it's horrific. But it's more than just the health issue - it's the total apathy toward rules and regulations generally.

I still see doctors stuffing our hard earned money straight into their pockets, knowing that they're still dodging taxes. This upsets me. At least pretend to be paying taxes!

I spend some time in local authority offices, where in they still leave work when they like and even in the various health departments continue to smoke, come on it's the ministry of health. I can do there at 1.00 in the afternoon, and they've all left!

The school opposite me is a joke, they don't appear to do anything. I hope that it is an exception to the rule though. But hey why do the parents have to folk out a small fortune in frontistiria fees? Forgive me if there are teachers reading, but this is my experience, confirmed by Greek friends.

Any sensible Greek would tell me to ****** off back to the UK, but I've met enough who seem to agree with me.

Britain has it's problems, but you need some order for a successful society - which Greece lacks. 

They do say when in Rome though etc. 

Anyway enough negativity...sun and frappe, sun and frappe


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## TinyZorro

*What I don't like about Greece...*

The fact that it's there and I'm still stuck here.
The single solitary thing that gets me from morning till night is the shiney twinkley thought that I may manage to escape from here (UK) and get there (3 guesses where 'there' is )
Hi  looked for a 'introduce yourself' thread but couldn't find one (curse this 5 second attention span  ) So I picked the next best thing (newest posted thingy)
I'm totally new to this forum but decided, enough is enough, and am trying to find some direction with reguards to my dream.
I know that nowhere is perfect and I have no 'blinkers' on where Greece is concerned. But....
This will probably sound a little lame (especialy to those who have already done what I'm still dreaming about) but I've had this dream for a few years now even though I've only visited twice. This will probably sound laughable but, the 1st time I was there I was a hairs breath from deliberately falling down the plane steps (on boarding to go home) just so I could stay a little bit longer.
Anyways, enough of my (pretty limp) life story, and I'll just say 'Ello' and would be very gratefull for any tips or pointers to any threads or even sites that you guys might think would be worth a look for a middle aged guy chasing a dream.
Thanks in advance and please forgive me if there is a 'Hello' thread.


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## micdhack

tryyourbest you are absolutely right about everything. It does take lots of guts to be in Greece and not having a Greek mindset.

I did not had much experience with the private sector but i had with the public sector in Greece. What it is to be working there? Well, never except any congrats if you are doing a good job. If you have any recommendations that could improve your work or works of others, two things are going to happen. Either you are going to be ignored or laughed at because nobody give a f**k OR they are going to feel threatened by you. In general, if you are a hard worker, people won't be jumping on the same train like you but most likely they are going to thing you are crazy or hate you for just going against the flow. Also, a sinking feeling of a constant decline in business and work is something normal and every employ should have one. If you have any problems the only way to address them is through a strike. Generally my impression was, hard worker, baaaad, lazy worker, goood! Imagine being young and all you had to look for your future was this. Ain't gonna happen!

Believe or not, the only thing that i am missing from Greece, aside from my family, is the food. I know ti sounds kind of silly. North Europe is lacking some testy ingredients that Greek diet has, especially the junk food!

TinyZorro, if you read all of the things here and you still willing to got then got for it. It is definitely the experience of a lifetime. The location i thing it depends on what you want. People are the same everywhere, the only difference is with the foreigners. In certain locations people see a foreign person once a year, and it could be overwhelming to start off there.


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## wka

On the public sector - I'm starting to come to the conclusion that the only thing more frustrating than being a civilian trying to deal with the public sector, is working for the public sector. My husband is a teacher (public sector) in Greece. He is NOT in the minority, or a "special exception" - I've met tons and tons of teachers through him. There are plenty of bad eggs, but in general, the teachers in Greece are overeducated, sharply underpaid, receive next to no support from either the community (including parents who are just... unbelievable sometimes) or the government.

For example. Where my husband works, there is very often no electricity. They hold classes in the dark, outside (if it's not too cold), or if they have to, they just end early. We (as a couple) have to pay for paper for photocopies, because the school doesn't provide paper, and in our particular location, it just so happens that paper is not sold (we live on an island and there are no stores that sell it), so while we did buy paper the ONE time we managed to combine both his days off work and ferry schedules actually getting us back in time for him not to have to take off work, and got off the island, we bought some paper - we don't really have extra money for such things, but anyway - but that was used up within a month. So now there is no paper in the school. My husband is supposed to have textbooks to teach with, it's not totally necessary as he is experienced but your tax money is paying for them - they arrived - not enough for the students in his classes, and without the instructor's edition - in December - and for some classes, have still not arrived (it's March. School starts in September). 

They have white boards instead of blackboards, and while chalk is sold on the island, the markers aren't. The teachers are always having their markers stolen because the students know that it drives them nuts as there are no replacements. They keep the markers locked up until they dry up and then they have none.

The students are so spoiled that they have to be pleaded with to enter a classroom. They prefer to sit outside in the sun and talk. None of the teachers here do "grade inflation" - they give out bad marks usually - but nobody cares, since the kids aren't planning to go to university and they have no interest in getting good marks. There is no frontistirio here, don't go thinking every Greek student is slaving away at frontistirio. For every one who is, there is at least another one who is obsessively updating Facebook and NOT studying for even his most basic classes.

When my husband came here to teach, the island had not had classes in his particular subject for the previous 8 years. He not only was required by the government to teach the curriculum for their classes (which of course is based on them having been taking the class every year) but to cover 8 previous years of material in the first few months (!!!) of class. 

He holds extracurricular activities for the students for which they inevitably show up half an hour late and he has to call them, at his expense, on his cell phone if he wants them to come at all. The parents rarely if ever are on time to parent-teacher conferences. The local government has complained that they use too much electricity and are no longer allowed to use lights and heat. The second building of the school (which is just a large open but roofed space) houses classes like physical education, art, and music as well as all extracurricular activities - has been locked by the government because they don't want the students/teachers using it. 

Meanwhile, most of the teachers have advanced degrees (Masters, PhD) either from Greek universities or foreign ones, they are all very dedicated and they are all young and driven. They get paid between €400 (there may be some paid even less than this) and €1600 per month depending on their position. There are at least 3 teachers on the island who are working here at a financial loss in that their monthly rent is more than their wages, but they do it because if they don't they won't move up the ASEP chart to be hired next year, hopefully in better conditions for more hours. One of the teachers on the island is paid by the hour (as are many) but this particular one is only allowed to work four hours per week. Her parents are paying her rent and whatever other expenses she has.

It goes without saying that about half of the teachers are forced to give up their rented rooms sometime in early June when the tourists start to show up. They either share with each other or end up paying €60/night. 

I could go on, but I realize this is getting very long. I just want to defend teachers. They are trying their best - I know this - but there is SO much against them - most whom I've talked to want desperately to teach abroad, but they've sort of suspended that option for the time being.


----------



## wka

Zorro, are you a UK citizen? If so, you have no problems whatsoever (compared to the Americans, Canadians, and other non-EU citizens who share your dream). Come on over! What are you waiting for? You obviously want it enough. Don't let all the negativity in this thread discourage you. We're all blowing off steam but we're all still living here. If we hated it, we would have left a long time ago, right? As long as you have enough money to support yourself, I think you'll be fine. If you don't have enough €€ saved up, just keep saving. Don't count on finding a job here though - that's pretty tough. Most estimate you need about €50/day to live comfortably (including rent, trans, food, etc etc), you can do it on half that to live at "normal" Greek basic wage standards. If you don't have enough money, I'd recommend, if you don't speak Greek, taking Greek language classes at home until you're able to come over. That can really make you feel like you're getting somewhere toward your dream. (I did that for many years before finally being able to come here to live - I'm not a lucky EU citizen!) It will also make your life far easier once you live here. You'll also meet like-minded people in your community, it's fun, and you'll feel like you're actually working toward your dream. You're never too old - my mom is doing the same thing as you at age 68.


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## soryps

wka said:


> micdhack - I imagine it varies very widely. As an American, I am regularly shocked by things that seem - to me - to be blatantly and unacceptably racist, but Greeks will often say "oh that's not racism," - I'm thinking of (I swear I have seen this within the last 2 months with my own eyes) TV presenters pulling their eyes into slits and making "chee-chaw" sounds to pretend to be Chinese or Japanese (or just using words like "kinezoeidis" when referring to an Asian person. If an American used an English translation of that word they would lose 90% of their social circle instantaneously. We have a VERY strong knee-jerk reaction to anything like that. I've heard racist slurs and jokes that literally made me go white - and the people saying them don't see that as racist, just as funny. The Greek explanation (I've heard many many times) is that "racism" in Greece is not about saying something pointless that makes someone else feel like sh*t or humiliates them publicly (apparently that's okay to do!), it's about more "essential" things like not hiring someone because of their skin color. My culture says BOTH are racist.


I guess I'm with the Greeks here because I don't see this as "racist". People need to stop being so sensitive and I'm actually really glad that this ridiculous amount of political correctness hasn't overtaken Greece like it has the US and much of western Europe.


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## xenos

soryps said:


> I guess I'm with the Greeks here because I don't see this as "racist". People need to stop being so sensitive and I'm actually really glad that this ridiculous amount of political correctness hasn't overtaken Greece like it has the US and much of western Europe.


Soryps...im with you on that one....there is always the option to jump on a plane back to the land of the free....and home of the KKK .....if you donr like the heat get the hell out of the kitchen


----------



## soryps

In no particular order:

The excessive smoking

How unorganized Greeks can be and how content they seem to be with it

The stubbornness of Greeks can be astounding 

The hordes of third world immigrants


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## micdhack

soryps said:


> The hordes of third world immigrants


I don't think that this is necessarily a problem. Having immigrants in third world countries it shows kindness and compassion. After all developed nations are the reason why poor countries stay poor. So the fact that somebody that doesn't have anything to eat, and wants to move in any developed country(even through Greece can't really classify as developed), its not bad by itself. Personally i don't even think that if he wants to retain his cultural background and customs, it's bad.

The problem arises when the society does not have any means to protect it's citizens from each other but also from the immigrants. Greece can't solve problems between Greeks, let alone foreigners. And the level of corruption is above and beyond. When there is no way for a country to say, act as you please but respect the freedoms of the people next to you, it is expected that people will do whatever the hell they want.

Take for example my personal experience. Once upon a time a was living in an apartment building. Since the building was old, rents were low and thus it attracted somewhat more less educated people (better yet illiterate). At that point i actually owned the apartment. There were many problems with cleaning and other sorts of problems in the building but the people didn't want to do anything (cause apparently being clean is not something that they like). I called the health authority in Greece and they told me ****. Basically they didn't want to do anything as well. On top of that a second problem was with the neighborhood were it had a big number of Georgian immigrants. Now these people liked to take the furniture on the side walks(chairs, tables) and drink their beers out in the open. They loved to make noise and it doesn't matter if it is early in the morning or late after midnight. Countless of times i complaint to them (they couldn't care any less), i complaint to the police, and i called the police. Nobody did anything! Once they came by with the police car and they said to them to split up but the people kept drinking their beer. Apparently in a public space you can do whatever you want and you won't be fined or be detained at least for 24 hours or something.

I cant say that i hate Georgian people, but i can't say that i like them nor that i would socialize with them. Not because i am a racist but because they have(this specific group at least) completely different definitions of what is fun, how do you respect people and generally completely different social norms. Who do i blame for that specific situation? Greeks! They are the ones that didn't respond to my calls for help. So it's not the immigrants' fault, cause if Greeks were civilized then the immigrants would be too and if still, they wouldn't comply they could be send home or in prison.


----------



## xenos

[.......

originally from Wales....nuff said!!!


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## Pyper70

I dont like :

Lack of common courtesy
Lack of common sense
The rampant smoking even with the smoking ban
The excessive cost of gasoline
The right to blame the US for everything that has happened financially
The way Greeks say they hate Americans but they take their TV shows, their movies, 
their clothes, their cars, their technology....but "we hate them"

I like:
The countryside
Connecting with ex-pats
Taking my drive along the beach
Getting on a boat and going to an island on a whim
The fact I won't get thrown out of a bar at 1:30am for "Last Call"


----------



## Cairokid

I don't like:

- the paperwork and bureacracy involved in running a businesses here
- the endemic corruption, major and minor, also mainly re business affairs
- the way many Greeks treat dogs
and I mustn't forget ...
... not being able to put toilet paper down the pan!

I do like:

- most Greeks
- the food
- the climate
- the music

I would also observe that, although I agree with what someone wrote about Greeks being racist, the most racist people I have met here have been English. I have been horrified by some of their comments, especially about Asians.


----------



## oldbadger

*What don't you like about Greece.*



Haraki said:


> As an expats I am sure if you are the same as me, once the exitment of moving to Greece has passed and you try and intrigate yourself into the local Greek community, some things just start to anoy you, I laugh at them now but at the time, I just could not get my head round the Greek way of thinking.
> I really would like to share these moment with you, and now be able to laugh together.
> 
> Just for for example: my first experience of aquiring a greek tradesman to do some work on the apartment, great phone call, the work not a problem will be there the next morning, well three bloody mornings later he showed up as if this is when he said he would arrive, I can laugh at it now


Smoking Smoking and, oh yes, Smoking. The staff smoke in the local post office and the cops smoke in the local police station. My wife has a chest complaint so we cannot enjoy any musical events in local tavernas because the atmosphere is polluted by cigarette smoke. She had to spend 10 days in Chania General Hospital recently and the staff even smoke inside the hospital. What a backward country!


----------



## pandelis

xenos said:


> [.......
> 
> originally from Wales....nuff said!!!


I sometimes can't believe what I am reading on the thread! Is anyone forced to stay in Greece? Were you expelled from your country of origin and unable to return? If life is so dreadful here, my recommendation is - go home!


----------



## oldbadger

Yes, we were "forced" to leave our home country due to the inclement climate which meant my wife had to take daily medication. Since moving to Greece with its better climate she no longer takes those drugs meaning she now enjoys a better lifestyle (and presumably will benefit from a longer life expectancy). Sadly those who are unable to control their drug dependency restrict our enjoyment but we may take your advice and move to a country where they realise the dangers to health caused by smoking - Turkey seems a good bet since their economy is also better run which means it will costs us less to stay there.


----------



## xenos

But nobody physically threatened your safety, forcing you to claim asylum? One assumes you did a little research into the country BEFORE you moved over and surrounded yourself with nicotine dependent people?
Had you atually done so, you would have IMMEDIATELY found out that the vast majority smoke (close to 70% of the population) and do not like being told they cannot....they pay their taxes on the cigarettes, why shouldnt they be free to smoke them.


----------



## oldbadger

I have nothing against people smoking cigarettes if they wish however I object to being forced to inhale their cigarette smoke when going about my daily affairs such as sitting in a cafe or bar enjoying a quiet drink or listening to music - due you wish to deny me that?. We did do research before we moved and found that Greece had, at last, passed anti-smoking laws. We did not realise that they would be so widely ignored - we thought Greek people would see the sense of a law which aims to protect people and reduce the high death rate due to smoking (which is costing the Greeks (sorry - costing the Germans who are sunsidising the country) such a lot of money in high health care costs. It is a shame to see kids and babies in cafes/bars surrounded by clouds of carcinigenic cigarette smoke - they did not have the chance to carry out any "research". Surely it is a basic human right to be able to inhale clean air?


----------



## xenos

oldbadger said:


> I have nothing against people smoking cigarettes if they wish however I object to being forced to inhale their cigarette smoke when going about my daily affairs such as sitting in a cafe or bar enjoying a quiet drink or listening to music - due you wish to deny me that?. We did do research before we moved and found that Greece had, at last, passed anti-smoking laws. We did not realise that they would be so widely ignored - we thought Greek people would see the sense of a law which aims to protect people and reduce the high death rate due to smoking (which is costing the Greeks (sorry - costing the Germans who are sunsidising the country) such a lot of money in high health care costs. It is a shame to see kids and babies in cafes/bars surrounded by clouds of carcinigenic cigarette smoke - they did not have the chance to carry out any "research". Surely it is a basic human right to be able to inhale clean air?


......................
Had you looked a little deeper you would have found that the previous ban did not work, and this one is only a little better enforced.
Heavy rises in taxes on tobacco have had little effect.
Greeks are renowned for ignoring laws, even those designed to save lives, such as motorcycle helmet and seatbelt laws, and the Greek police are not renowned for enforcing the law
Well-ventilated bars should be exempted including the many which are open to the street. 
While I appreciate that you do not like smoking, I am (unfortunately) a smoker - should I be denied my right to use the product which I have purchased?? Why a ban on cigar lounges or bars which have designated sealed-off smoking areas? If they are worried about public health why not ban junk food and toxic cola drinks? To avoid the big killer, stress, consider those who have to listen to mobile phones in public or suffer from unruly brats in enclosed public places, or badly controlled dogs that never seem to stop barking night and day. If you can't abide my bad habits, why should I have to put up with yours?


----------



## lindavdriet

I DON'T LIKE MANY THINGS IN gREECE. THE GARBAGE, IKA THE TAX OFFICE, BUT MAINLY THE HORRIFIC CASES OF ANIMAL CRUELTY THAT HAPPENS EVERY DAY ALL OVER GREECE.
lUCKILY THERE ARE A MINORITY OF GREEKS AND FOREIGNERS TRYING THEIR BEST.


----------



## oldbadger

xenos said:


> ......................
> Had you looked a little deeper you would have found that the previous ban did not work, and this one is only a little better enforced.
> Heavy rises in taxes on tobacco have had little effect.
> Greeks are renowned for ignoring laws, even those designed to save lives, such as motorcycle helmet and seatbelt laws, and the Greek police are not renowned for enforcing the law
> Well-ventilated bars should be exempted including the many which are open to the street.
> While I appreciate that you do not like smoking, I am (unfortunately) a smoker - should I be denied my right to use the product which I have purchased?? Why a ban on cigar lounges or bars which have designated sealed-off smoking areas? If they are worried about public health why not ban junk food and toxic cola drinks? To avoid the big killer, stress, consider those who have to listen to mobile phones in public or suffer from unruly brats in enclosed public places, or badly controlled dogs that never seem to stop barking night and day. If you can't abide my bad habits, why should I have to put up with yours?


As I said previously I have no objection to you inhaling the smoke from burning leaves as long as I can breathe clean air. My issue is that in most bars, cafes, tavernas and restaurants where we go smokers are allowed to enjoy smoking but people who wish to enjoy clean air are denied their wish. You do not seem to understand - eating junk food, drinking "toxic" cola does not impact on people around them as smoking does. All we ask is that we are allowed equal rights with smokers - the right to breathe free air without having to inhale dangerous cigarette / cigar smoke. What is wrong with that? You appear to be dictating that smokers' rights are above other people's - all I am saying is that people who do not smoke should have an EQUAL right - to breathe clean air.


----------



## rosietrixie

nikokons said:


> Hi to everybody,
> 
> I came across this forum by accident and being Greek if i can i would like to help you. First of all, i must admit that you are courageous people living your countries to come to live in Greece.
> However, some of the things that i read are a bit overstretched, and others are happening even in the countries you come from.
> 
> 1)Cairokid, yes you do need a permit to work even if EU. I do my postdoc in NL, and I do need a work permit and residence card also even if EU. By being an EU citizen it just makes it easier to get one.
> 2)zabestof . I have lived in NL (5yrs), and CH (3 years) and studied in the UK. You do need to register in every European country, no matter from where you come from and you do need to get a AFM as i did in NL, and CH before i sign my contract? why is this so strange? it happens everywhere. that problem is indeed with all the pakistanis, indians, africans that come illegally, as Greece is in the EU borders and because of Dublin II agreement, if we cannot deport them back we need to keep them as no other european country will get them and you may imagine that UK, or NL do not have the same rate of illegal immigrant influx as Greece, italy or spain bordering with africa and asia.
> 3)as for medical care. I can assure you and not by being greek in emergency greece is one of the best countries in EU..where we are PATHETIC is routine exams, schedule goes on forever and of course you need to bribe...but consider that we have 800k of illegal, not insured immigrants that get treatment for free..so already a BAD system becomes WORSE. that is not happening in any other country of EU. Moreover being in NL, i had to visit that family doctor 3 times until my soon gets antiobiotics for his 41C fever which eventually subsided.
> I can write a lot of things, and dont take me wrong especially Nowadays with the crisis greece will get only worse..not better.
> 
> if there is something i can help with i would be happy to.


I've lived in Greece for over twenty years, I have a job, a bank account and a car and I have never been asked for a residence or work permit.


----------



## xenos

nikokons said:


> Hi to everybody,
> 
> I came across this forum by accident and being Greek if i can i would like to help you. First of all, i must admit that you are courageous people living your countries to come to live in Greece.
> However, some of the things that i read are a bit overstretched, and others are happening even in the countries you come from.
> 
> 1)Cairokid, yes you do need a permit to work even if EU. I do my postdoc in NL, and I do need a work permit and residence card also even if EU. By being an EU citizen it just makes it easier to get one.
> ..............................
> 
> nikokons
> 
> WRONG WRONG WRONG
> 
> You can work without a work permit in Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein.
> 
> In Malta, you will need a work permit until 30 April 2011, but the authorities must issue it automatically and may not prevent you from starting to work. In Austria, Germany and Switzerland, you must still obtain a work permit. And in the United Kingdom, you must register with the authorities
> 
> Regarding the Residency Permit,
> Under article 8 of the new presidential decree and article 8 of the EU directive, EU citizens who wish to stay in another member state for more than three months are required to apply for a registration certificate (veveosi eggrafis) at their local aliens bureau. The registration certificate does not have to be renewed.
> 
> Previous legislation required non-Greek EU citizens to obtain a residence permit that had to be renewed every five years.
> 
> To register, EU citizens are required to submit the following documents: a valid identity card or passport; confirmation of engagement from the applicant's employer or a certificate of employment or proof that they are self-employed. Those who are not active in the labour market will only need to submit proof of medical insurance and that they have sufficient monetary resources for themselves and their family.
> 
> The registration certificate should be issued on the spot. It is also free of charge.
> 
> EU citizens who do not register will be subject to a fine of at least 59 euros, based on articles 8 and 27 of the new decree and article 458 of the Greek Penal Code.
> 
> Check your facts before giving incorrect advice


----------



## tryyourbest

oldbadger said:


> As I said previously I have no objection to you inhaling the smoke from burning leaves as long as I can breathe clean air. My issue is that in most bars, cafes, tavernas and restaurants where we go smokers are allowed to enjoy smoking but people who wish to enjoy clean air are denied their wish. You do not seem to understand - eating junk food, drinking "toxic" cola does not impact on people around them as smoking does. All we ask is that we are allowed equal rights with smokers - the right to breathe free air without having to inhale dangerous cigarette / cigar smoke. What is wrong with that? You appear to be dictating that smokers' rights are above other people's - all I am saying is that people who do not smoke should have an EQUAL right - to breathe clean air.


There is no logical argument to continue the support the use of tobacco products. The only people who benefit are the small minority who profit from their use. We must continue to educate the public until smoking has disappeared entirely from public conscience. 

This should not be about smokers versus non-smokers. It's not about tax revenue - It's about the collective public health, and I am sure that there isn't a reasonably educated smoker would be able to maintain that smoking was in anyway good for our health.

Smokers talk about equal rights and democracy and smoking in the same sentence, as if the habit is as natural as being left-handed. But they're reticence is based on an addiction - and that just does not make sense. 

The truth is I was never so vitriolic about this subject until I moved to Greece. The ignorance here as far as smoking and it's dangers here defies logic, but i think it reflects a general lack of social conscience, it extends into many other areas of Greek life. Greeks simply aren't that interested in the collective whole, in society. Some cite the mistrust of successive corrupt governments as the root cause - but for certain things that will enrich everyone's lives, such as a smoking ban, I think this has become a convenient excuse.

Still you cannot change a whole country, and would you want to, Greece has so much going for it - I just sometimes feel that a little bit of common sense would go a long way to making Greece greater. 

Now have I had a moan yet about parking on the white lines.....?


----------



## ovy

The Grocer said:


> 100% with you on that one........the sooner the government sort out the unions the better!


 maybe it's better the other way round! :boxing:


----------



## Vincent Ramone

ovy said:


> maybe it's better the other way round! :boxing:


There are loads of reasons to dislike Greece and most have to do with the government, Unions, and services..

However, what gets my goat are the sanctimonious, po faced, "collective whole" busibody English who have deigned to grace Greece with their pious pomposity regarding Greeks and smoking..

I am a Greek American and am never at a loss of fascination as to how much you English drink and how your annoying pontification proclivities are amplified when you are drunk, which is often.. You repeat yourselves, you become vulgar, you start insulting statements with "I'm not trying to be funny, mate, but. . ." and that to be honest impedes my good time when I am out and about. 

Regardless of what you believe, you are guests here in Greece. If this were the U.K and Poles, Pakistanis, Indians, or whatever race you folks hate at a turn complained about the culture of the common English you lot would tell them to F-k off home... 

I am NOT a smoker, but my 83 year old father is.. I would tell him to quit, but he is busy manning his small fishing boat during the day, hunting during the Autumn, and playing cards at night.. Live a little and stop your *****ing.


----------



## xenos

Vincent Ramone said:


> There are loads of reasons to dislike Greece and most have to do with the government, Unions, and services..
> 
> However, what gets my goat are the sanctimonious, po faced, "collective whole" busibody English who have deigned to grace Greece with their pious pomposity regarding Greeks and smoking..
> 
> I am a Greek American and am never at a loss of fascination as to how much you English drink and how your annoying pontification proclivities are amplified when you are drunk, which is often.. You repeat yourselves, you become vulgar, you start insulting statements with "I'm not trying to be funny, mate, but. . ." and that to be honest impedes my good time when I am out and about.
> 
> Regardless of what you believe, you are guests here in Greece. If this were the U.K and Poles, Pakistanis, Indians, or whatever race you folks hate at a turn complained about the culture of the common English you lot would tell them to F-k off home...
> 
> I am NOT a smoker, but my 83 year old father is.. I would tell him to quit, but he is busy manning his small fishing boat during the day, hunting during the Autumn, and playing cards at night.. Live a little and stop your *****ing.


.....

An American talking sense - now theres a thing!!!! Somebody call Reuters


----------



## oldbadger

Vincent Ramone said:


> There are loads of reasons to dislike Greece and most have to do with the government, Unions, and services..
> 
> However, what gets my goat are the sanctimonious, po faced, "collective whole" busibody English who have deigned to grace Greece with their pious pomposity regarding Greeks and smoking..
> 
> I am a Greek American and am never at a loss of fascination as to how much you English drink and how your annoying pontification proclivities are amplified when you are drunk, which is often.. You repeat yourselves, you become vulgar, you start insulting statements with "I'm not trying to be funny, mate, but. . ." and that to be honest impedes my good time when I am out and about.
> 
> Regardless of what you believe, you are guests here in Greece. If this were the U.K and Poles, Pakistanis, Indians, or whatever race you folks hate at a turn complained about the culture of the common English you lot would tell them to F-k off home...
> 
> I am NOT a smoker, but my 83 year old father is.. I would tell him to quit, but he is busy manning his small fishing boat during the day, hunting during the Autumn, and playing cards at night.. Live a little and stop your *****ing.


Well - I seem to have touched a nerve to have illicited such a rude response. I am a resident in Greece and pay taxes on my income. The whole point is we want to "live a little" but the smoking mafia inhibit our ability so to do.


----------



## Vincent Ramone

oldbadger said:


> Well - I seem to have touched a nerve to have illicited such a rude response. I am a resident in Greece and pay taxes on my income. The whole point is we want to "live a little" but the smoking mafia inhibit our ability so to do.


So you came to Greece like so many English with more money than sense and failed to notice that EVERYBODY smokes? 

You are like the Ugly Londoner who sells up and comes to Cornwall for the bucolic splendor and calls the council everytime the church bells ring, or complains that things are too slow..

It is what it is and you should have employed a bit more due diligence before making the move. On the bright side things could be worse as you could be living in Turkey or Milton Keynes.


----------



## oldbadger

Vincent Ramone said:


> So you came to Greece like so many English with more money than sense and failed to notice that EVERYBODY smokes?
> 
> You are like the Ugly Londoner who sells up and comes to Cornwall for the bucolic splendor and calls the council everytime the church bells ring, or complains that things are too slow..
> 
> It is what it is and you should have employed a bit more due diligence before making the move. On the bright side things could be worse as you could be living in Turkey or Milton Keynes.


Err - no! Why do you not allow me (and my wife who, due to a lung condition cannot inhale cigarette smoke) the privilege of breathing clean air? I recognise the fact that Greeks enjoy smoking and also do not appear to care about the health of their children whom I see, far too often, wreathed in carcinogenic cigarette smoke in cafes and tavernas. Milton Keynes is very nice - I have been there and I understand Turkey is very nice also - and law abiding regarding non-smoking legislation (and not living off German money but we won't go there!). Are you saying smokers should have the right to smoke everywhere? are you? Seriously? I am happy that those who are addicted to tobacco smoke as long as they do not infringe the rights of non-smokers. What is wrong with allowing people the right to breathe clean air?


----------



## greekman

Greece is my country. It's beautiful as spirit, as an idea but not as reality.
And this because greek people live on this land.
Greek people have nothing to do with ancient people. The worst thing about us, is that we don't respect ourselves. so don't expect to respect any other.
also we care only for ourselves and all they other can go to f****(sorry) but this is the base of Greek people thinking.
That's why today Greece passes very difficult time and it is bankrupted.

And it's not that much the finances bankrupt as the bankrupt of morality, believes and values.

Sorry for my bad English I hope you've 'got' the meaning-as we use to say in Greece. 

But you must visit Greece it has such a beautiful place to visit and give you unforgettable moments by people and place that keep alive and unaltered the spirit of Greece.


----------



## oldbadger

greekman said:


> Greece is my country. It's beautiful as spirit, as an idea but not as reality.
> And this because greek people live on this land.
> Greek people have nothing to do with ancient people. The worst thing about us, is that we don't respect ourselves. so don't expect to respect any other.
> also we care only for ourselves and all they other can go to f****(sorry) but this is the base of Greek people thinking.
> That's why today Greece passes very difficult time and it is bankrupted.
> 
> And it's not that much the finances bankrupt as the bankrupt of morality, believes and values.
> 
> Sorry for my bad English I hope you've 'got' the meaning-as we use to say in Greece.
> 
> But you must visit Greece it has such a beautiful place to visit and give you unforgettable moments by people and place that keep alive and unaltered the spirit of Greece.


A refreshing and honest answer - many thanks. Greece IS a very beautiful country and it's people are very fiendly - we have now moved to Crete where my wife's health has improved dramatically thanks to the good climate (except in cafes... but let's not starts that again).


----------



## Vincent Ramone

greekman said:


> Greece is my country. It's beautiful as spirit, as an idea but not as reality.
> And this because greek people live on this land.
> Greek people have nothing to do with ancient people. The worst thing about us, is that we don't respect ourselves. so don't expect to respect any other.
> also we care only for ourselves and all they other can go to f****(sorry) but this is the base of Greek people thinking.
> That's why today Greece passes very difficult time and it is bankrupted.
> 
> And it's not that much the finances bankrupt as the bankrupt of morality, believes and values.
> 
> Sorry for my bad English I hope you've 'got' the meaning-as we use to say in Greece.
> 
> But you must visit Greece it has such a beautiful place to visit and give you unforgettable moments by people and place that keep alive and unaltered the spirit of Greece.



Yasoo, Greekman.. Your English is fine, as is everything that you have said.. I am Greek, but I was born in America and I live in Kefallonia so I know all too well what you are talking about.

I blame the government because that is where it all starts and ends. The government is corrupt, the system is corrupt, and if you play by the rules you are a "Malaka" (I hate that word) but if you bribe someone, cheat someone, then you are the "Mangia."

I am holding out hope that the young people in Greece start to understand that the Government cannot continue to give stuff for nothing and also that by working together and helping each other is the only way to get through what Greece is going through..

In any case, my friend, you are so right when you say that it is not a financial crisis, but a moral one... Let's hope the (us) Greek people find their soul.


----------



## uktrucker

*Not just Greece !*



Haraki said:


> As an expats I am sure if you are the same as me, once the exitment of moving to Greece has passed and you try and intrigate yourself into the local Greek community, some things just start to anoy you, I laugh at them now but at the time, I just could not get my head round the Greek way of thinking.
> I really would like to share these moment with you, and now be able to laugh together.
> 
> Just for for example: my first experience of aquiring a greek tradesman to do some work on the apartment, great phone call, the work not a problem will be there the next morning, well three bloody mornings later he showed up as if this is when he said he would arrive, I can laugh at it now


Yes I would love to sit down and compare notes with you about life in other countries - I am from the UK, currently living in Thailand and believe me - your man may have come 3 days late but here in Thailand they don't usually bother showing up at all and when you ask them about it they just SMILE at stare at you - it's not even worth getting angry - you do just laugh about it in the end but it makes life here very difficult sometimes.

uktrucker


----------



## Pearl99

pandelis said:


> I sometimes can't believe what I am reading on the thread! Is anyone forced to stay in Greece? Were you expelled from your country of origin and unable to return? If life is so dreadful here, my recommendation is - go home!


I know! LOL
I am stuck in England (bad weather, food, cold people) and I am already planning on returing to Greece.
If people hate Greece so much I am suprised they choose to reside there. It's not like their homelands have economical problems. Do they?
I have been to many parts of Europe and Britain, and I would say the Greeks are probably one of the friendliest people around.
I am happy they dont have knife crime, chavs, terroists (yet) and they are not invading or imposing their culture on other countries.
Really, if you cant take the heat, get out of the kitchen


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## Trifecta

I have spent many holidays sat in Greek bars listening to ex-pats denigrating their adopted homes, laughing at the customs and ridiculing the system, whilst braying about how they still get "their" winter fuel allowance and suchlike. Failing completely to see the irony of course.

I love Greece and I love Greeks and soon I will be living and enjoying your glorious climate and enjoying the wonderful culture and food and maybe if I can bring my Greek up to standard I can join the local communities and offer something (much as I hope to offer something to this community) and I will thank whatever God that is appropriate that I am out of the hell-hole that is the United Kingdom because the problems that Greece has and the idiosyncrasies of it's people pale into insignificance when judged against England today. All of course IMHO. Yia sas.


----------



## uktrucker

Hooray, someone who sees "the other side". I wish you much luck and if you can find the time to help with information for someone such as me who wish to retire to Greece and enjoy their wonderful country, traditions and the good weather.

Take care., uktrucker


----------



## Popi

Firstly, let me say I absolutely LOVE living in Greece (central Athens in my case) and I hope I never have to go back to boring, grey, uptight old England. But of course there are SOME things I dislike about Greece, they are, as follows;

Spoiled children, they are very common here, especially in my building!
Over confident scooter riders, driving all over the pavement and clearly pedestrianised zones, they get a lot of abuse from me!
Also boys with scooters that sound like amplified blenders, not cool, although they think they are.
How the Green Man almost never means it's safe to cross the road.
The banks closing at 2.30pm.
People washing the pavements outside their buildings, often with BLEACH!?
Books in the bin!!!! (no charity shops here though so...)
Macho crap amongst lots of men.
Disgusting animal cruelty and people so regularly dumping cats and dogs on the streets. Saying that there are lots of people in my neighbourhood who put out food and water for the strays so there are animal lovers around too!


Can't think of much else....if I were to write a list of things I dislike in England it would be pages. Greece is a great country!


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## Rockndoc

I am new to this forum. Perhaps you can answer the following question for me: if my wife is an EU citizen and I am a U.S. citizen, do we register in different ways? We intend to move to Greece when I take full retirement in a couple of years, but I suspect it isn't too soon to start thinking about these matters. We will have sufficient funds to not need to work while in Greece, although my wife might choose to do so, as she has not yet reached retirement age. 
Regarding health insurance: since Medicare is not valid outside of the U.S., what sort of medical insurance would U.S. citizens in Greece recommend. I will be 65 or 66 when I retire, but am in excellent health and am also a physician, working full-time, at present. I have my medical degree from the Netherlands and completed my residency training in the U.S. I would not be adverse to working part time in Greece, but do not need to do so. I speak Dutch, German and English, as well as a smattering of Greek (improving gradually)--perhaps this would be a plus if one were to require a physician who speaks the language of many of the tourists who vacation in Greece. I will be maintaining my U.S. medical degree, for the event that our move doesn't turn out to be everything (or at least many of the things) we hope it to be. We intend to rent for a year or two before considering purchasing property in Greece. Perhaps we might stick with renting, if that proves to be less of a hassle, but time will tell.


----------



## uktrucker

Popi said:


> Firstly, let me say I absolutely LOVE living in Greece (central Athens in my case) and I hope I never have to go back to boring, grey, uptight old England. But of course there are SOME things I dislike about Greece, they are, as follows;
> 
> Spoiled children, they are very common here, especially in my building!
> Over confident scooter riders, driving all over the pavement and clearly pedestrianised zones, they get a lot of abuse from me!
> Also boys with scooters that sound like amplified blenders, not cool, although they think they are.
> How the Green Man almost never means it's safe to cross the road.
> The banks closing at 2.30pm.
> People washing the pavements outside their buildings, often with BLEACH!?
> Books in the bin!!!! (no charity shops here though so...)
> Macho crap amongst lots of men.
> Disgusting animal cruelty and people so regularly dumping cats and dogs on the streets. Saying that there are lots of people in my neighbourhood who put out food and water for the strays so there are animal lovers around too!
> 
> 
> Can't think of much else....if I were to write a list of things I dislike in England it would be pages. Greece is a great country!


Hi,

I am so glad to hear someone who loves living in Greece, there is always a good side and a bad side - in every country, I am trying to get in touch with ex pats who have made a life for themselves in Greece, who live in a nice quiet place and enjoy a decent if simple lifestyle. If the couple who live in Chiang Mai, Thailand see this PLEASE could they get in touch. I also am living in Chiang Mai for the time being.
If any expats can give me good advice, where to live, where there is a fairly large ex pat community - please let me know.:clap2:


----------



## Haraki

*What happened recentley*

Let me first thank everybody that has taken time to write on this thread. It is nice to see both sides of the argument now been said.... Just to clear up any doubts I do love Greece and like the people very much, but...there is always a but, the goverment are making it very hard for people to know what they are suppose to do with so many rules and regs especially concerning taxes etc.
I have heard now that they are looking if swimming pool owners have licenses for there pools, there are some steep fines involved this is hear say so best check it out for yourself. And the drawings submitted to planning for building our apartment are not repesentative of what has been built the floor space is less. A ploy by the builders to pay less tax, but the goverment says we can pay a fine to clear this, but if we do not pay the fine it will be more if we want to sell in the future! I have been informed this is or was normal practice so check out your propertys and see where you now stand with the goverment today. Any body else aware of any changes I would be glad to hear of them.
Regards to all


----------



## Guest

*come see the rubbish*



tpebop said:


> Greeks dont care about the countryside. If they have something to get rid of, they just dump it by the roadside. All manner of things from household rubbish to white goods & vehicles


I totally agree with this, i live on the island of aegina (not for much longer) and all you see when driving round the island is abandoned cars white goods and building rubbish dumped at the side of the road
what gets me is they all sit there and complain about it and then go and tip stuff at the side of the road, no wonder tourists are going to the other islands, I peronally wouldn't recommend to anyone to stay on this island, it's turning into a rubbish tip.

When walking around with a local chap he was telling me how bad things are with rubbish, what really got me was when he finished his bottle of water he just threw the empty plastic bottle on the ground even though there was a bin in sight, what do these people expect.


----------



## Hfaistos

Currently an Expat in Greece and hopefully moving out before the ship sinks... even further.

Greece is a beautiful country, but sadly run by some of the most corrupt people in the world. Even by third would country standards.

Greek bureaucracy? Don't get me started...


----------



## xenos

Hfaistos said:


> Currently an Expat in Greece and hopefully moving out before the ship sinks... even further.
> 
> Greece is a beautiful country, but sadly run by some of the most corrupt people in the world. Even by third would country standards.
> 
> Greek bureaucracy? Don't get me started...


#.....
#

And that coming from a Columbian who is sadly spot on


----------



## unhappybunny

*What don't you like about Greece?*

It stinks. They are rude, ignorant, LAZY, they should never be allowed to keep animals ... I can't wait to get out of this God-forsaken country ..... because God must surely have foresaken it ...... if he hasn't already, then he should!!!!!!! THIS COUNTRY IS THE PITS. Why the hell the UK is bailling them out is beyond me. David Cameron needs a rocket up his ass.

Anybody ever tried the hospitals here? They really f****d up my husband's brain big time.

I HATE THIS PLACE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And please, don't anybody bother replying because I'm not interested .... I'm done with this crap.


----------



## panos1313

unhappybunny said:


> It stinks. They are rude, ignorant, LAZY, *they should never be allowed to keep animals* ... I can't wait to get out of this God-forsaken country ..... because God must surely have foresaken it ...... if he hasn't already, then he should!!!!!!! THIS COUNTRY IS THE PITS. Why the hell the UK is bailling them out is beyond me. David Cameron needs a rocket up his ass.
> 
> Anybody ever tried the hospitals here? They really f****d up my husband's brain big time.
> 
> I HATE THIS PLACE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> And please, don't anybody bother replying because I'm not interested .... I'm done with this crap.



You are right on one thing, we should be more careful with which animals we allow to enter the country.


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## wka

wow. I'm pretty sure this is why God created passports and airplanes. You can go home whenever you darn well please, so ... just go?


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## Cairokid

Like an earlier poster, I also live on Aegina. What he or she says is simply untrue.

Yes, there are places where there is rubbish, but there are also lots of places that are clean. This is a lovely island and don't be put off if you want to live here. It is very convenient for many things.

Someone also criticised the hospitals but, on the plus side, I recently had to have a number of tests and x-rays. I went to the local hospital and got them done the same day for a very minimal price, so it isn't all negative.

Yes, there are things about Greece that could be better, especially at the moment, but the same is true of almost anywhere in the world.

I think that your life in any country is largely what you make of it. Look for the good and the pleasant and you will find it. Look for the bad and ugly and sure enough you will find that too.

I don't think this thread was intended to knock Greece - just to shine a little light on what foreigners find unattractive. 

Hopefully then those coming to live and work here will do so with realistic expectations and will be less likely to be disappointed.


----------



## seaskys

*Change*

I've been here for over 27 years now from NYC, and the thing that bothers me the most is how much the people have changed. It's the same everywhere in the world I guess but it is heartbreaking to see how they give less and want more and are never satisfied.


----------



## backpacker44

I'm moving to Greece and couldn't be more excited. I'm counting down the days, minutes, hours.. I've been several times, and not just on silly vacations.. 

But the one thing that I dislike about Greece, is how hard it is to move there! But thats more of an EU issue.


----------



## Sarouskava

*Its not so bad*



uktrucker said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am so glad to hear someone who loves living in Greece, there is always a good side and a bad side - in every country, I am trying to get in touch with ex pats who have made a life for themselves in Greece, who live in a nice quiet place and enjoy a decent if simple lifestyle. If the couple who live in Chiang Mai, Thailand see this PLEASE could they get in touch. I also am living in Chiang Mai for the time being.
> If any expats can give me good advice, where to live, where there is a fairly large ex pat community - please let me know.:clap2:


Hi, I have lived here in Greece for over ten years now, on Crete. I don't understand why people complain zoo much, if you don't like it here leave! 
I love my life here, the people are so warm and welcoming, have great patients with me whilst try to learn Greek.
Of course there are things that are not the same as where you originally come from, so of course you would find them strange, new and different, like riding scooters at 2 in the morning, this is because here you do not go out until after 12 and no one who is from Greece or lived here a while knows this and it does not bother us! Greece is in a bad state now, and I hate it when people say that they - expats are paying for everything whilst the Greeks aren't paying for anything, they pay for a he'll lot more than you know and realize, it is not there fault the government is corrupt, I have a lot of friends who are close to living on the streets, can't buy food etc etc because of the government taking all there money, lowering wages and raising prices of everything, we are trying to survive, of course the young Greeks are trying to change it, why do you think there was all the protests all over Greece a while ago - which were peaceful, this was them showing that things have to change.
My advice for anyone who is thinking of living here, go for it, if you are willing to fit it then you will not regret it, if you are someone who thinks they will have the same life they had 'back home' - where ever that is! Then you are not for here, as you are never going to be happy, go back home to where everything is perfect!
Sorry but it really pi##es me off that people come here and expect it to be the same as America or england but sunnier!


----------



## nick27

I totally agree... I've got a few friends from Greece my self and as Arouskava says Greeks are the victims of a way too much corrupted government. Greeks pay way too much and that brought them to the point of survival. It just makes me wonder what is going to happen back home in the UK if the government was to ask people that they have to pay 500GBP on the top of council tax in one month and the same month another 500GBP emergency tax and a further 20% reduction to your salary. I strongly believe that Greece needs to change and from the greeks i've met in my life (believe you me are quite a few) they will do it. The young people had enough and they want change. Greece is a very beautiful place and the people so warm and their hospitality unique. I had the best experience this summer in greece and as Arouskava says if you don't like it live there just go back home.it is simple as that... It is the easiest thing to point the finger just point it to the right direction and not to the people... i do hope i didn'r cause any offence to anyone it is just my humble opinion.  



Sarouskava said:


> Hi, I have lived here in Greece for over ten years now, on Crete. I don't understand why people complain zoo much, if you don't like it here leave!
> I love my life here, the people are so warm and welcoming, have great patients with me whilst try to learn Greek.
> Of course there are things that are not the same as where you originally come from, so of course you would find them strange, new and different, like riding scooters at 2 in the morning, this is because here you do not go out until after 12 and no one who is from Greece or lived here a while knows this and it does not bother us! Greece is in a bad state now, and I hate it when people say that they - expats are paying for everything whilst the Greeks aren't paying for anything, they pay for a he'll lot more than you know and realize, it is not there fault the government is corrupt, I have a lot of friends who are close to living on the streets, can't buy food etc etc because of the government taking all there money, lowering wages and raising prices of everything, we are trying to survive, of course the young Greeks are trying to change it, why do you think there was all the protests all over Greece a while ago - which were peaceful, this was them showing that things have to change.
> My advice for anyone who is thinking of living here, go for it, if you are willing to fit it then you will not regret it, if you are someone who thinks they will have the same life they had 'back home' - where ever that is! Then you are not for here, as you are never going to be happy, go back home to where everything is perfect!
> Sorry but it really pi##es me off that people come here and expect it to be the same as America or england but sunnier!


----------



## nick27

firstly let me say that i am sorry for your husband and do hope that was nothing serious and that he is going to be ok. 

on the other hand i'll tell you one thing that you got wrong. UK never contributed to any of the bailouts we just said no from the beginning. The second thing is that i do live in the UAE and if you thing that greeks should not allowed to keep animals then you should learn for all the british in Dubai with the economic downturn left their animals which they "loved" so much just wondering in the desert or locked in their abandoned cars or apartments.the temperature over here can go up to 50 in the summer. As for their health service i have only one thing to say. when i was back home in the UK I was suffering from sever headaches. (later in Greece was diagnosed with a rear tumor) After waiting 3 months for a referral from my GP the hospital called me to tell me that I have to wait another 2 months as there were no appointments. ( i was referred as an urgent case...) One of my friends which was greek told me to have a chat with one of the specialist in a city called thessaloniki in northern Greece. to cut the story short I had 2 operations the Dr was performing a technic that wasn't used in the UK which saved me at least an other 8 facial reconstruction operations and my experience with their hospital was excellent, and above all very cheap. I don't know if things changed now but this was 6 years ago... Before i speak with the surgeon in Greece I was admitted to hospital in London for a week and for 5 days none of the drs bothered to come and see me or have a look at the CT scan. Only after 7 days of me being staffed with painkillers a student dr came and gave me the all clear with a diagnosis "stress". They did miss the massive tumor !!! that's our NHS... as i said, sometimes i don't like it being down here myself. The people and culture are so different from back home and i hate it. but at the end of the day we have a choice stay or go back home. greeks don't 



unhappybunny said:


> It stinks. They are rude, ignorant, LAZY, they should never be allowed to keep animals ... I can't wait to get out of this God-forsaken country ..... because God must surely have foresaken it ...... if he hasn't already, then he should!!!!!!! THIS COUNTRY IS THE PITS. Why the hell the UK is bailling them out is beyond me. David Cameron needs a rocket up his ass.
> 
> Anybody ever tried the hospitals here? They really f****d up my husband's brain big time.
> 
> I HATE THIS PLACE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> And please, don't anybody bother replying because I'm not interested .... I'm done with this crap.


----------



## mrsDayLewis

*Im not happy when...*

well, let me start off by saying that EVERY country has its bad as well as its good points... but maybe the things that annoy me most are not things about the culture but dumb things that local people have got into the habit of doing or accepting.

Personal space - while I do know that Greeks dont always understand the concept of 'personal space'  I really dont like when some people crush into me on the bus or metro. In the wintertime when the bus gets really crowded, I now use my umbrella as a 'prod' to keep the men from leaning into me :heh:

The only other thing that bothers me is the way the authorities do not stop the people who beg with children - in other countries the kids would be taken away by authorities and put into care - protected, then when the parents Know this, is usually enough of a deterrent to keep the kids at home.
Ive seem some of the camps where the beggars will often party well into the wee hours, kids as well, so that they will sleep on laps during the day bc of exhaustion. 
One lady I passed this week had a newborn on her lap - tight little red face, asleep, and totally exposed to all the car fumes etc as 'mum' begged.
I gave out leaflets once outside a supermarket, and the lady there with toddler on her lap, kept him amused by flicking her lighter on and off for him. after a few hours, she went and got cigs with her pocket money, and then got into a truck with a bunch of others.

It's abuse -physical, mental and emotional - plain and simple, and I really dislike it! 
:baby:


----------



## qwertyalex

Haraki said:


> As an expats I am sure if you are the same as me, once the exitment of moving to Greece has passed and you try and intrigate yourself into the local Greek community, some things just start to anoy you, I laugh at them now but at the time, I just could not get my head round the Greek way of thinking.
> I really would like to share these moment with you, and now be able to laugh together.
> 
> Just for for example: my first experience of aquiring a greek tradesman to do some work on the apartment, great phone call, the work not a problem will be there the next morning, well three bloody mornings later he showed up as if this is when he said he would arrive, I can laugh at it now


Couldnt agree more. Im learning this now, been here 2 years and my pet hate is some of the Greek drivers. My wife who is Greek agrees and warned me when we moved here that "Greece is wonderful if only there were no Greeks in it". Several other Greek friends have said similar. One thing drivers seem to be lacking here is fear.


----------



## libville

Sarouskava said:


> Hi, I have lived here in Greece for over ten years now, on Crete. I don't understand why people complain zoo much, if you don't like it here leave!
> I love my life here, the people are so warm and welcoming, have great patients with me whilst try to learn Greek.
> Of course there are things that are not the same as where you originally come from, so of course you would find them strange, new and different, like riding scooters at 2 in the morning, this is because here you do not go out until after 12 and no one who is from Greece or lived here a while knows this and it does not bother us! Greece is in a bad state now, and I hate it when people say that they - expats are paying for everything whilst the Greeks aren't paying for anything, they pay for a he'll lot more than you know and realize, it is not there fault the government is corrupt, I have a lot of friends who are close to living on the streets, can't buy food etc etc because of the government taking all there money, lowering wages and raising prices of everything, we are trying to survive, of course the young Greeks are trying to change it, why do you think there was all the protests all over Greece a while ago - which were peaceful, this was them showing that things have to change.
> My advice for anyone who is thinking of living here, go for it, if you are willing to fit it then you will not regret it, if you are someone who thinks they will have the same life they had 'back home' - where ever that is! Then you are not for here, as you are never going to be happy, go back home to where everything is perfect!
> Sorry but it really pi##es me off that people come here and expect it to be the same as America or england but sunnier!


Hi,

Do you think life on Crete or the islands is different than the mainland? It sounds to me like quite a few people live on the mainland and their problems seem like big city problems buses, bureaucracy, etc.


----------



## robg

How about a list of reasons that people left their Mother Countries for?

Seems to me that some folk perhaps expect to much from the move they made.
Political corruption, a Health service that leaves stroke vicitims laying in their own
body waste for hours, massivley hiked Energy Bills, communities that couldn't give 
a damn for the elderly or Mentally infirm. 
Steets and whole parts of some Towns, where even men would'nt want to be in
daylight, let alone at night. This is England.
While we are at it, ask yourselves what are you actually contributing to the Greek way of life.


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## wka

robg, welcome to the forum! why don't you start a new thread in the Greece forum asking why people moved here?


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## priggipisa

Living in Greece for over 10 years.
#1 thing that irritates me has to be the way people just throw or leave trash anywhere. I can't understand this way of thinking. My first few months twice, I picked up a crumpled piece of paper and gave it back to the person that "dropped" it. Yes, I thought they "dropped" it because I couldn't imagine just walking in a mall someone would just "throw" piece of paper down! My husband later explained what happened-took bit convincing. Thinking back, I'm so glad I gave it back to them! Though they probably thought I was a nut!

#2-ugh red tape, bureaucracy...public employees... It's like nothing can be easy or simple, everything is complicated. Lack of customer service and amount of red tape I felt was ridiculous, not to mention attitude from public employees. When I went to get electric turned on for my parent's place, they sent me from desk to desk, only to end up in an office with the employee busy gossiping for 20 minutes! I had about reached the end of wits that day!

However, in all fairness, what I've endured on my Mom's behalf with the Social Security Administration in the US, that has had me at my wits' end too!


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## LGK616

Garbage, grafitti, grafitti, and grafitti. My BIGGEST pet peave.


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## priggipisa

LGK616 said:


> Garbage, grafitti, grafitti, and grafitti. My BIGGEST pet peave.


I was disappointed when I saw the grafitti here, I mean I've seen plenty grafitti in the US (though usually not political, as many are here), but I really didn't expect to see any here. When I visited in 1977, I didn't remember seeing any or it was so little that I didn't notice it. Just very disappointing at the grafitti, unless it's artistic.


----------



## qwertyalex

Haraki said:


> As an expats I am sure if you are the same as me, once the exitment of moving to Greece has passed and you try and intrigate yourself into the local Greek community, some things just start to anoy you, I laugh at them now but at the time, I just could not get my head round the Greek way of thinking.
> I really would like to share these moment with you, and now be able to laugh together.
> 
> Just for for example: my first experience of aquiring a greek tradesman to do some work on the apartment, great phone call, the work not a problem will be there the next morning, well three bloody mornings later he showed up as if this is when he said he would arrive, I can laugh at it now


It depends on your area. Ive found some of the Greeks (not all!!) in Attiki very materialistic and selfish. They dont seem to care about anything other than how many houses they have and being first in any queue (including when driving). BUT if you go to Islands or northern Greece they are kind, caring and very different in their thinking. Corruption at ALL levels is a way of life and they have milked every system and every level for too long. Now its catching up with them sadly and the poor and some of the middle class are suffering as a result of this.
Every country has good and bad, I guess you just have to accept them for who they are. Regarding your tradesman ALWAYS go with someone recommended by an expat otherwise forget it they will let you down in some way or another.


----------



## priggipisa

robg said:


> How about a list of reasons that people left their Mother Countries for?
> 
> Seems to me that some folk perhaps expect to much from the move they made.
> Political corruption, a Health service that leaves stroke vicitims laying in their own
> body waste for hours, massivley hiked Energy Bills, communities that couldn't give
> a damn for the elderly or Mentally infirm.
> Steets and whole parts of some Towns, where even men would'nt want to be in
> daylight, let alone at night. This is England.
> While we are at it, ask yourselves what are you actually contributing to the Greek way of life.


Very well said! I'm Greek-American, so can add road rage to that list, not like in Greece, where people may yell or swear at each other, but where people actually have had a gun or knife pulled out on them. The point is every place has it's good, bad and ugly. Though you made the best point.. what are we actually contributing to the Greek way of life?

I will say due to economic crisis, I've also been tempted with thoughts of moving, but at the same time don't want to give up on my country at it's time of need, so I choose or try to look at what is still good and not only the negative.


----------



## The Grocer

There is certainly something amusing about Greek mentality. For most things (and especially in the public service), "avrio" is "manyana" without the rush..........EXCEPT when driving !!!!


----------



## Rob Johnson

*Cricket*

It's not really something I _dislike _about Greece, but the distinct lack of interest in cricket is a tad disappointing. After eight years, I've managed to persuade only half a dozen Greek friends of the joys of cricket, but I'm still well short of fulfilling my ambition to help create a national team.


----------



## Cairokid

Rob Johnson said:


> It's not really something I _dislike _about Greece, but the distinct lack of interest in cricket is a tad disappointing. After eight years, I've managed to persuade only half a dozen Greek friends of the joys of cricket, but I'm still well short of fulfilling my ambition to help create a national team.


I'm not a cricket fan but my husband is. They play in Corfu I believe. 

If he wants to discuss cricket here in Greece, he speaks to Pakistanis ... many of them play regularly on suitable pieces of ground.


----------



## Rob Johnson

Cairokid said:


> I'm not a cricket fan but my husband is. They play in Corfu I believe.
> 
> If he wants to discuss cricket here in Greece, he speaks to Pakistanis ... many of them play regularly on suitable pieces of ground.


Yes, I believe Corfu even has a proper cricket ground, mainly because there are so many Brits on the island.


----------



## wka

The cricket ground in Corfu is on the Spianada, I think the largest town square in the Balkans (or something like that). It's really lovely but I've never seen anyone actually playing cricket there. Ι think they have a cricket festival in the summers.

ETA: here's a better photo.


----------



## robertm

*what dont you like about Greece*

Reading through these posts and I dont think anyone has mentioned Greek drivers, people either drive at 20 kph or like complete idiots with no patience and only overtake on blind corners. Also at traffic lights a millisecond after the lights turn to green you get the guy behind tooting his horn before you get the chance to release the handbrake.

My biggest dislike is the expat dodgy builder, shoddy work, not paying the IKA that has been handed to them for paying, taking money and not finishing the job knowing that even if taken to court they know not only will the process take donkeys years but ****** all will happen and they get away with it. And its mainly fellow expats they rip off.

Expat bars come a close second. People who in the UK who didnt go the the pub more than once a week now in there 7 days a week, boredom probably, unfortunately many people come here for a more relaxed, less stressful life and end up with pickled livers.


----------



## Judithjas

wka said:


> I think the main thing I don't like is some bureaucratic hassles. Yesterday it took my husband SIX HOURS to do his απογραφή (which is supposed to take 5 minutes) because the system was so poorly designed / overloaded. My one-year residence permit wasn't issued until 12 days before it expired. My husband is a teacher and it's July 18 and we still don't know what part of Greece (not even which prefecture) we'll be living in come September. Getting my health insurance cost us so much money because we had to travel from our island to two different islands plus the mainland to get all the stamps and signatures necessary. They are so unclear about requirements that it doing immigration / taxes / property issues without a lawyer or an accountant is intimidating.
> 
> I think if you take away the bureaucracy, I couldn't really complain about anything else.


Hello, I am currently living in Mexico (7 years here), and am thinking about how similar are the countries Greece and Mexico in the cultural thinking. Boy, do things take time. Patience I have found to be key. As a child, I lived in Greece and loved it. I truly hope things economically improve, and soon! Thanks for reading.


----------



## Ptolemy3367VV

Well there is not much I don't like about greece.

Some people talk about garbage or graffiti?

Well the garbage problem I have only seen it as a problem in few areas. But for instance Santorini, west Crete, Rhodes and Symi are very clean in my opinion.


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## jacvin

garbage is the worst barking dogs drive me mad and not being able to learn the language (yes i do try).but theres a lot more i love and a lot i hate about uk


----------



## ratzakli

Hi

I was a bit surprised when I saw the title of this thread as it sounded quite aggressive. Then I started to read the first couple of comments and realised the OP was talking about having to take off the rose-tinted specs after you have moved and come up against some of the realities of your new home. 

If it had been replied to in a different way, this could have been quite valuable for some of the people who were making plans now so they could be aware of some of the pitfalls and perhaps find ways to avoid them - or at least know they were going to be there!

Unfortunately, some of the replies were unnecessarily vitriolic and just seemed to be written by people who were annoyed that their dream life hadn't lived up to their expectations.

I can't list them all but some of the gripes were about:

Crowded Metros/buses
Garbage/Graffiti
Inconsiderate car drivers/bike riders
Corrupt politicians
Animal Cruelty
Child Abuse
Lousy Hospitals

As a comparison, let's think about what it is like in the UK:

Last week, I spent 3 days in London so I have plenty of experience about crowded overground and underground trains here in the UK. There was also plenty of litter and graffiti and I had to dodge out of the way of a couple of bike messenger riders (one on a motorbike and the other on a pushbike). On both occasions they shouted at ME for getting in THEIR way - even though I was on the pavement at the time!

In the past couple of years, we have had several dozen members of our Houses of Lords and Commons being charged with theft and fraud for fiddling their expenses - and they are just the ones that got caught. I would bet anything that there are hundreds of other local and central politicians who have been doing the same as well.

All of the UK's animal charities are at breaking point because they are trying to deal with all the abandoned pets. Hardly any of them has any spaces left - and the latest reports from the RSPCA showed that animal cruelty convictions had shot up by almost 24% from the previous 12 months.

As for child abuse, have some of the posters forgotten Victoria Klimbie, Baby P and the Rochdale cases? The NSPCC statistics show that the number of physical and sexual child abuse offences in the UK runs at more than 20,000 each year.

Then we have the UK's NHS system. Supposedly the "envy of the world" - until you read the Mid-Staffordshire Hospital report that says up to 1,200 patients may have died needlessly because of sub-standard care. There was also the Alder Hay scandal, where doctors routinely ripped out the organs of dead children without their families' consent. And the inquiry into the Bristol Royal Infirmary, which said that countless babies had died due to the sheer incompetence of the hospital staff. 

But perhaps the thing that made me roll my eyes the most was the post moaning about the Expat Builders and Expat Bars that seem to abound in Greece. I thought that was particularly ironic - especially when you consider it was posted on a forum specifically dedicated to Expats!! 

Greece does have it's own problems. Some of them have been caused by themselves through not paying taxes properly and some have been caused by their Government, with the assistance of groups like Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan Chase. Also, like other countries, other problems were forced on them as a result of the financial collapse of institutions like Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and Lehman Brothers. 

All in all, I know where I'll take my chances - και αυτό είναι στην Ελλάδα!!


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## kassandra

First let me say I love the country and (almost) everything about it. But there are a few things that get to me after a little while.

Firstly, the system with doing anything "official" is frustratingly awful, officials (i.e. police) know nothing of many supposedly mandatory procedures and will often send you running around in circles just to find someone who knows what they're talking about. Buildings where you fill out official documentation to hand in are a confusing mess of halls, no signs and a lot of people in the wrong place (Greeks included!) making many simple procedures highly time consuming and frustrating.

Another thing that has somewhat got to my inbuild British "sensitivities" is the sheer amount of street traders/beggers/etc. trying to sell a lot of junk that will break in 5 seconds or guilt trip you into paying them after they wash your car (poorly) at a traffic light when you tell them no to begin with. They seem to get even more persistent once they realize you're not Greek, believing you to be a tourist ignorant of how things are here and try to essentially scam you. Maybe I am being unfair here, but the amount of times I see this sort of thing on a day-to-day basis simply drives me to my wits ends. If they actually tried to get a job I'm sure many of them could, my friend once actually was offering a job to someone doing just this who promptly walked away saying they didn't need a job - they make a fair amount of money off of other people's conscience believe it or not!

Animal cruelty is a big thing for me over here, I love animals but it seems that sadly Greeks do not - poisoning strays, hitting them, yelling at them, it breaks my heart to see. I have even seen young children pushing a young puppy over onto the ground as it cowered from them, laughing as they did so with their parents looking on doing nothing to correct this behavior. There also seems on a related note very little awareness being done in education to correct this? Back in England we have over 50 zoos and wildlife parks where parents can take young children to become more aware of nature, in Greece I know of just 1 and even that is far less popular than I would have expected.

The last thing is with some of the more "patriotic" types of Greeks, I'm not saying being proud is a bad thing, but when people criticize the economy of Greece there are far too many that will bring the conversation back to ancient history. "You were swinging from trees/living in caves while we were creating civilization" seems to be a common comeback, relevant thousands of years ago, not now to make yourself feel superior to any other nationality.

P.S. As more of a comical complaint we seem to have someone who owns a dysfunctional rooster (in Athens, of all places!) which persistently and very loudly starts crowing at about 4am!


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## Ad Rem

The government !


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## Haraki

Thanks to everybody for contributing to this thread, it really does allow somebody to read about all our experiences of Greece.

Since I came to Rhodes, my Greek friends have been telling me that they do not trust the banks, I though they a bit silly not placing there money safely in Banks...now after what has happened in Cyprus I can see why they were apprehensive in placing money in banks.....if the Greeks did not trust the banks and the government before, there is not a cat in hell's chance of them trusting them now....it may not be the same country but it is near enough for comparison.


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## soryps

ratzakli said:


> I can't list them all but some of the gripes were about:
> 
> Crowded Metros/buses
> Garbage/Graffiti
> Inconsiderate car drivers/bike riders
> Corrupt politicians
> Animal Cruelty
> *Child Abuse*
> Lousy Hospitals


While I can agree with most of the others, I have to say I've never witnessed child abuse while living in Greece. In fact I've noticed quite the opposite. Children tend to be incredibly spoiled and over-indulged here.


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## Haraki

*May 2013*

I agree with you about the children bit, Greeks adore children and here in Haraki we have never seen only care, affection towards children...We were back in Rhodes in May, it was lovely to be back I just love it here, so we have an appartment near Haraki, Malona, I had some work done on the outside last year a concrete roof to close some open beams for us to have a covered patio area, well you can imagine the concrete work that got done, and me being in civil engineering in the UK, we got them back last year to do a bit of cleaning up (Greek Style) but it was still ****, so I came back to sort this out this May. While my wife was being the foreman sipping pims in the shade muggins here was on a ladder hacking off snotts of concrete and placing filler in the holes, anyway three days later I finished the prepping, ok ok so I am on bloody holiday I can take as long as I like......we have them roller blinds for the winter months that allows us to still use the patio area, I took a piece with me to the builders merchant to get the right colour, the guys there where great, they took the blind scanned it for the colour, asked me loads of questions, is it for inside or outside? is it in direct sunlight? do I need 5Kg, 10Kg or 15Kg so I said 15Kg, the colour was spot on, then the guy said 80euros, I said F......G how much, 80 euros he said again and explained outside paint is expensive, well now I was speechless....went home and told my wife I was going to lie down as I have just had open wallet surgery.....so told her the story....anyway a few days into the painting...I am still on bloody holiday here I can take as long as I want....the plastic paint tin I was using had a thick dry coat of paint inside it, so I dicided the best thing to do was to slightly crush the tin to crack the paint and tap the tin to knock the dry paint out, it turned out the paint was plasticide no matter how much I squezzed or crushed the plastic tin the paint just flexed with the movment.....ok so now I can see why it cost 80 euros....loved the painting bit and seeing the outside of my appartment looking fresh and dandy....two and half weeks went so fast...back out there in October just can not wait....


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## asimenia

Haraki - hope you got planning permission ..... putting a roof on an outside space is illegal .... I should know  (we have had neighbours who have threatened to 'snitch' on us)


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## Haraki

*Planning Permission*



asimenia said:


> Haraki - hope you got planning permission ..... putting a roof on an outside space is illegal .... I should know  (we have had neighbours who have threatened to 'snitch' on us)


Oh Boy, planning permission now that will start some discussions, here is my story in a nut shell, when I bought my property the real estate agent and builder said they would organise it so that I would not have to pay so much building tax, brilliant we thought!!! 5 years on we had to pay 1500euros as a one off payment as our house drawings showed half our property was a garage, without this payment we would not be able to sell or make any alterations to the property, so we did everything through a lawyer to get it right and paid, now we are legal, but the strange thing is the drawings did not have to be changed to show the actual size of the building! Anyway all done and dusted, all legal apparently, until the next law comes in that say we need to pay for some other reason...I am glad I did pay as now I can do anything I want to my property without worrying about it...


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## TommyD8

This thread is an eye opener...

But it is truly sad how many different countries around the world are having such dire difficulties...

The sad part is there is no one or thing to blame but ourselves... It is what we have made it, no?


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## thasariya

I like Greek people. Athens is specially best and beautiful city among other European cities.


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## sir-lances-a-lot

A lot of whingeing cry babies on here. Greece is Greece -you dont expect perfection because nowhere on Earth is like that. If I live on a Greek island with a few thousand inhabitants would I expect the latest technology and super quick service? Probably not, because I'm not in London, New York or any major city and things will be different.

It amuses me that people move to Greece expecting everything to run like back home... 

You could pick any country in the world and list everything you dont like about that particular place. Every country has its positives and negatives, if you dont like it - fine -either go somewhere else or deal with it and shut up.

Where's the love people? How about listing everything you do like about Greece instead of complaining about everything.


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## ratzakli

sir-lances-a-lot said:


> It amuses me that people move to Greece expecting everything to run like back home...


I couldn't agree more - this post sums up exactly how I feel about many of the comments in the thread.

It amazes me to hear so many people in the UK grumbling about how immigrants don't try to learn the language and want to bring their own customs over with them - but then expect to do exactly the same when they move out to Greece, Spain, Italy etc.


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## aliland

Wow - this has been a long running thread!
As I grew up in a fairly rural environment and now live in Thessaloniki, I'm not sure what is annoyance with Greece as opposed to annoyance with city life but the selfishness of my neighbors is the root of most of my complaints. Loud music, motorbikes, littered streets, cars all over pavements, dog poo, ridiculous pushing on busses.
As tempers are flairing as money decreases, I've finally convinced husband to follow the rest of our friends and get out of the city. Feeling positive that my anger is not aimed at Greeks, but an inability to adapt (even after a decade) to city life. Fingers crossed.


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