# Water Bill



## Clic Clac

I've finally received my closing water bill, after the house sold in April.

I've used 13€ of water, and ended up with a bill for 86€, after all the little 'add ons'. 

These all look to be the usual, TVA,etc, but as it's the first of two bills for the year it states :

"Abonnement annuel eau 2022" 36€ + TVA.

Can they charge a full year's subscription, or am I entitled to ask to pay 98/365 ths ?


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## EuroTrash

Get the missus on to it, Clics!


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## Clic Clac

Bonjour Monsieur,

Pour faire suite à votre mail, nous regrettons de vous informer que nous ne pouvons accéder à votre requête, en effet, le compteur d’eau est facturé 36,00 € HT soit 37,98 € TTC que vous soyez 1 mois, 4 mois ou même 3 semaines dans la maison.

Nous ne pouvons pas proratiser la location du compteur.

Nous vous réitérons nos excuses

Restant à votre écoute

Recevez Monsieur, nos cordiales salutations .


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## EuroTrash




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## Clic Clac

EuroTrash said:


>


Thanks ET.
It's getting as tricky as England with hidden snares everywhere. 
Does this read ok before I send it ?

Bonjour,

Merci beaucoup pour votre réponse, mais je ne suis pas satisfait de votre décision.

Notre contrat a pris fin le 8 avril lorsque vous avez résilié la fourniture, alors comment pouvez-vous exiger le paiement d'un service que vous ne fournissez pas ?

Je souhaite faire remonter mon problème à une plainte officielle au sein de votre entreprise et j'aimerais voir les termes et conditions de notre contrat où j'ai signé pour accepter ce paiement continu.

Pendant que je demande à un cadre supérieur d'examiner mon problème, je me réserve le droit de porter mon cas devant le médiateur de l'eau.


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## Bevdeforges

Not sure how far you'll get with this. The fixed fee isn't really a "service" fee applicable to services rendered over the term of the contract, but more of a "registration" fee to set up the account, billing, terms, etc. at the start of each contract term. It's not a "decision" on anyone's part - it's more likely a long-fixed policy in how they bill the utility services.

But, if you want to take it to the mediator, more power to you. Just don't expend any large amounts of time, money or effort to fight what is a small amount. (And yes, I actually hope you win it. Just not too certain that you have much of a case here.)


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## Clic Clac

Bevdeforges said:


> Not sure how far you'll get with this. The fixed fee isn't really a "service" fee applicable to services rendered over the term of the contract, but more of a "registration" fee to set up the account, billing, terms, etc. at the start of each contract term. It's not a "decision" on anyone's part - it's more likely a long-fixed policy in how they bill the utility services.


Thanks Bev.

I've just noticed they said "Nous ne pouvons pas calculer au prorata la location du compteur." so they must be still charging me to rent their meter. We'll see.


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## vianina

Clic Clac said:


> Thanks Bev.
> 
> I've just noticed they said "Nous ne pouvons pas calculer au prorata la location du compteur." so they must be still charging me to rent their meter. We'll see.


If it's in fact rental then they must be charging rental twice - once to you, once to the buyer of your house. That doesn't sound right.


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## SPGW

Fully with you on this CC. Of course they _could_ prorata the rental of the meter if they bothered to do it ( about as much trouble as replying to your mail). I’m afraid it’s just another rip-off profiteering policy by utility companies. It is simply not the right thing to do to charge you for something you will not use.
Do go ahead with your complaint. Good luck.


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## SPGW

Oh and “nous ne pouvons pas calculer…” suggests they need help with the maths. Poor excuse. Do it for them and let them know how much they owe you). That’s not the same as saying that their T & C doesn’t include the possibility of making the prorata calculation, which they might have said if it were the case.


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## Clic Clac

SPGW said:


> Fully with you on this CC. Of course they _could_ prorata the rental of the meter if they bothered to do it ( about as much trouble as replying to your mail). I’m afraid it’s just another rip-off profiteering policy by utility companies. It is simply not the right thing to do to charge you for something you will not use.
> Do go ahead with your complaint. Good luck.





SPGW said:


> Oh and “nous ne pouvons pas calculer…” suggests they need help with the maths. Poor excuse. Do it for them and let them know how much they owe you). That’s not the same as saying that their T & C doesn’t include the possibility of making the prorata calculation, which they might have said if it were the case.



Thanks.

I did the calculations in my first email, and told them I was being over-charged by 27€78

I escalated it to a complaint and received an initial reply :

*Bonjour Monsieur,

Je ne fais qu’appliquer les décisions, et vous informe que je fais part de votre doléance sans soucis mon Responsable Hiérarchique.

Restant à votre écoute

Cordialement*

I'll keep going. I've got more time than money at the moment. 🤗


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## saffron_gin

Talking about water bills, I am at a rental where I am asked to pay for water (didn't in the previous two places)...and today found out it 192 for just over 3 months of usage by single person...it seems a little excessive, no?


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## Clic Clac

saffron_gin said:


> Talking about water bills, I am at a rental where I am asked to pay for water (didn't in the previous two places)...and today found out it 192 for just over 3 months of usage by single person...it seems a little excessive, no?


Have you seen the bill ?

As I wrote in the opening post, you may find that it's all the 'add ons' they find that bumps up the bill.

If I used 1€ of water to water the garden they kindly charged me another 3€ for dispersal & treatment of the water when they had never touched it.


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## BackinFrance

Clic Clac said:


> Have you seen the bill ?
> 
> As I wrote in the opening post, you may find that it's all the 'add ons' they find that bumps up the bill.
> 
> If I used 1€ of water to water the garden they kindly charged me another 3€ for dispersal & treatment of the water when they had never touched it.


If you use water from the mains it is drinking water and has been treated.


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## Nomoss

saffron_gin said:


> Talking about water bills, I am at a rental where I am asked to pay for water (didn't in the previous two places)...and today found out it 192 for just over 3 months of usage by single person...it seems a little excessive, no?


I may be wrong, but I believe that it is illegal to make a profit on services - water and electricity, etc. - charged to a tenant, and that only a reasonable portion of the actual bill(s) may be charged.
You should certainly be entitled to see the bill(s).


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## saffron_gin

Clic Clac said:


> Have you seen the bill ?


no - it was calculated by the owner from some meter reading and told...all bills are in their name.


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## saffron_gin

Nomoss said:


> I may be wrong, but I believe that it is illegal to make a profit on services - water and electricity, etc. - charged to a tenant, and that only a reasonable portion of the actual bill(s) may be charged.
> You should certainly be entitled to see the bill(s).


yes, we trust that people won't exploit you but there is no guarantee, and as foreigners we don't necessarily know or have resources to deal with it...the other charges were reasonable, but 192 for water for 3 months felt like a lot...but then again, I don't have any other reference for this to compare.


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## vianina

saffron_gin said:


> Talking about water bills, I am at a rental where I am asked to pay for water (didn't in the previous two places)...and today found out it 192 for just over 3 months of usage by single person...it seems a little excessive, no?


Assuming 5 euros final cost per m3, that makes 38.5 m3 in 3 months or something like 300 litres a day, which is massive for one person. Does your accommodation have its own meter or are you paying for water for the landlord's family too? You need to ask to see the record of meter readings and also ask the landlord to show you where the meter is, for starters. It doesn't seem normal to me that the water contract is in the landlord's name, if you have a proper rental contract.


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## EuroTrash

I have a water bill for 106€ which is all standing charges and taxes. They have estimated my consumption at 0, which is wrong. I suspect the reason for that is that the commune changed suppliers and my final bill from SAUR was far more than I owed, because they hadn't read the meter since 2018, so I got a refund worth more than a full year's consumption charges, and rather than go back and change the estimated readings for the last couple of years when I was living in the UK to show low consumption each year, SAUR left 2019 and 2020 as they were and whacked 2021 down to zero consumption. And Veolia will have based consumption for the first half of 2022 on that.
106€ for six months not including seems massively high though. With SAUR I think I used to pay less than 20€ per month in total. But it doesn't say on the bill what period it covers. Which I would have thought every bill should state clearly.


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## vianina

EuroTrash said:


> I have a water bill for 106€ which is all standing charges and taxes. They have estimated my consumption at 0, which is wrong. I suspect the reason for that is that the commune changed suppliers and my final bill from SAUR was far more than I owed, because they hadn't read the meter since 2018, so I got a refund worth more than a full year's consumption charges, and rather than go back and change the estimated readings for the last couple of years when I was living in the UK to show low consumption each year, SAUR left 2019 and 2020 as they were and whacked 2021 down to zero consumption. And Veolia will have based consumption for the first half of 2022 on that.
> 106€ for six months not including seems massively high though. With SAUR I think I used to pay less than 20€ per month in total. But it doesn't say on the bill what period it covers. Which I would have thought every bill should state clearly.


The Abonnement part of the bill usually covers six months, but it’s odd that they don’t state the period included. 106 is a lot for fixed charges. Under Veolia’s rules, it is not meant to be more than either 30 or 40 per cent, depending on commune, of the cost of an annual bill for 120m3, which means 106 for a year might fit, but not for 6 months. 
Ma facture d’eau, comment ça marche ?


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## Clairefarrimond

EuroTrash said:


> I have a water bill for 106€ which is all standing charges and taxes. They have estimated my consumption at 0, which is wrong. I suspect the reason for that is that the commune changed suppliers and my final bill from SAUR was far more than I owed, because they hadn't read the meter since 2018, so I got a refund worth more than a full year's consumption charges, and rather than go back and change the estimated readings for the last couple of years when I was living in the UK to show low consumption each year, SAUR left 2019 and 2020 as they were and whacked 2021 down to zero consumption. And Veolia will have based consumption for the first half of 2022 on that. 106€ for six months not including seems massively high though. With SAUR I think I used to pay less than 20€ per month in total. But it doesn't say on the bill what period it covers. Which I would have thought every bill should state clearly.


 The Abonnement part of the bill usually covers six months, but it’s odd that they don’t state the period included. 106 is a lot for fixed charges. Under Veolia’s rules, it is not meant to be more than either 30 or 40 per cent, depending on commune, of the cost of an annual bill for 120m3, which means 106 for a year might fit, but not for 6 months. Ma facture d’eau, comment ça marche ?


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## Clic Clac

Clairefarrimond said:


> *The Abonnement part of the bill usually covers six months*, but it’s odd that they don’t state the period included.* 106 is a lot for fixed charges.* Under Veolia’s rules, it is not meant to be more than either 30 or 40 per cent, depending on commune, of the cost of an annual bill for 120m3, which means 106 for a year might fit, but not for 6 months. Ma facture d’eau, comment ça marche ?


It might be the same as the company I was with - charged on the first bill but to cover the whole year.

*ET *: Do they mention 'Abonnement annuel ' ?


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## EuroTrash

This is the "facture détaillée". It bugs me that there's no dates. Utilities bills should show dates, it's important.


Quantité ou Volume (m³)Prix unitaire( HT) Montant( HT) Taux de TVA(%) Total général(TTC)
DISTRIBUTION DE L'EAU
Abonnement (part distributeur)........................22,00..............5,50

Abonnement
(part communale)..................................................12,74..............5,50

Total DISTRIBUTION DE L'EAU....................................................................................36,65

COLLECTE ET/OU TRAITEMENT DES EAUX USEES OU SERVICE ANC
Abonnement (part distributeur).........................20,00.............10,00
Abonnement (part communale)........................41,46..............10,00

Total COLLECTE ET/OU TRAITEMENT DES EAUX USEES OU SERVICE
ANC...............................................................................................................................67,61


Total général :...................................................96,20....................................104,26

Total TVA : 8,06
Montant HT 34,74
TVA (5,50 %) : 1,91
Montant HT 61,46
TVA (10,00 %) : 6,15
Montant prélevé : 104,26


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## Clic Clac

EuroTrash said:


> This is the "facture détaillée". It bugs me that there's no dates. Utilities bills should show dates, it's important.
> 
> 
> Quantité ou Volume (m³)Prix unitaire( HT) Montant( HT) Taux de TVA(%) Total général(TTC)
> DISTRIBUTION DE L'EAU
> Abonnement (part distributeur)........................22,00..............5,50
> 
> Abonnement
> (part communale)..................................................12,74..............5,50
> 
> Total DISTRIBUTION DE L'EAU....................................................................................36,65
> 
> COLLECTE ET/OU TRAITEMENT DES EAUX USEES OU SERVICE ANC
> Abonnement (part distributeur).........................20,00.............10,00
> Abonnement (part communale)........................41,46..............10,00
> 
> Total COLLECTE ET/OU TRAITEMENT DES EAUX USEES OU SERVICE
> ANC...............................................................................................................................67,61
> 
> 
> Total général :...................................................96,20....................................104,26
> 
> Total TVA : 8,06
> Montant HT 34,74
> TVA (5,50 %) : 1,91
> Montant HT 61,46
> TVA (10,00 %) : 6,15
> Montant prélevé : 104,26


Well, I've saved you 2 'quid' because that one's only 104€.😅

Blimey, 4 abonnements. 
Your lot are worse than mine. 
I would hope that is for the whole year, but it would be interesting to see the unit figures.


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## EuroTrash

Clic Clac said:


> Well, I've saved you 2 'quid' because that one's only 104€.😅


I know I know, ET is dysnumerate. Every time I say a figure it's wrong. Two euros out isn't bad for me, at least I didn't say 140 euros.
I found two contracts on the Veolia website and ploughed through them to see if it said the tarifs, and when I got to the very end of both of them it said that I was notified of the agreed tarifs by the commune when Veolia was first awarded the contract (I wasn't) but I could ask Veolia any time and they would send me details.
I better get in touch tomorrow if I want a reply before Christmas.
I note that the bulk of the cost is the commune's share of the wastewater abonnement. Now I know that the commune had to have new pipes put down a couple of years ago, the whole town centre was dug up for months, must have cost thousands of thousands. And I realise that has to paid for somehow, in fact I expected the property taxes to go up because of it but they haven't. So I wonder if that has something to do with it? But I don't see how it can because that was 2020/2021, and Veolia only got the contract at the beginning of this year. Or is the tarif for the commune share independent of the provider share. Va savoir.


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## Bevdeforges

It's just a hunch, but I wonder if you're being billed for a full year this time because you had basically 0 water use last year. Normally, they bill you the "estimated" amount at the half year billing and then catch you up after someone has actually read your meter at the end of the year. But given all the fuss and feathers we go through here every time a new administration in the mairie decides they have to change water company (for part of the town - we're apparently on three different water providers for some strange reason), I believe that each water company does their own thing as regards how they bill, between "estimated billings" and the annual tally up.

Or, ask at the mairie. They're the ones who authorized the change in water vendors. Perhaps they could explain how the system is "supposed" to work.


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## suein56

saffron_gin said:


> no - it was calculated by the owner from some meter reading and told...all bills are in their name.


It sounds as tho you might be renting a 'gite'.
Are your premises furnished ?
What does your rental contract say about the charges for electricity and water during your stay ?
Costs should be detailed in the agreement you signed.
Any money demanded by the owners, extra to the rent you pay, should show the meter readings involved and your proportionate charge.


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## saffron_gin

suein56 said:


> It sounds as tho you might be renting a 'gite'.
> Are your premises furnished ?
> What does your rental contract say about the charges for electricity and water during your stay ?
> Costs should be detailed in the agreement you signed.
> Any money demanded by the owners, extra to the rent you pay, should show the meter readings involved and your proportionate charge.


yeah nothing straight forward with this rental (don't even ask, requesting payment in cash after arriving+ more i don't want to get into here) now they just just showed up and asked that I pay the utilities total right away, which was bizarre, as I assumed they will just take it off the month's rent deposit they already hold when I move out...i have learnt so much this year about all these different gîte type rentals in the long term furnished housing market in France, and can't say I have had one positive unproblematic experience out of the 3. They just seem to press on and grab as much as they can (each owner in a different way...so will be happy to get off this universe).


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## suein56

SG .. sounds as tho they are renting 'au noir' i.e. not declaring the rental on their tax return etc.
So they are out for every sous they can get.

If you could find somewhere else to go you could inform on them to the police .. and to the tax office.


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## saffron_gin

suein56 said:


> SG .. sounds as tho they are renting 'au noir' i.e. not declaring the rental on their tax return etc.
> So they are out for every sous they can get.
> 
> If you could find somewhere else to go you could inform on them to the police .. and to the tax office.


Right on S about the first part...am trying my hardest to get out of the vac rental space into a proper year rental...it has been a bumpy ride to say the least...


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